# Training goals and progress. (anyone interested in a support group?)



## CptJack

I don't know if this is going to be interesting for anybody else, much less useful. It will, however, keep me from hijacking other people's threads with my hair tearing out. I'll probably keep this thing updated, but commentary from the peanut gallery is always welcome and so are people sharing their frustrations, goals, and progress.

As of today, this is where we are:
Thud is a little less than 16 months old. 

He has a slew of obedience commands and cute tricks under our belt; commands are not our issue.

He is highly excitable, easily distracted, has the attention span of a weasel on crack. It's a very, very FRIENDLY total loss of his mind, but it's a problem and what we're going to be working on.

Frankly? This is not the temperament I expected of him when he was a puppy or teenager, but somehow my suspicious, wary, and somewhat guarding inclined dog has turned into a dog who is TOTALLY IN LOVE WITH THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD OMG. 

I actually think he might be a golden retriever mutt at this point. Except he herds fairly effectively and is enormous. 

Anyway! Our focus is going to be on attention, impulse control and dealing with distractions and things that make him lose his mind. I'm not looking for miracles, but I'm hoping that by the end of two 7 week classes and working between that we'll come out of this with a dog who at least sometimes chooses to use his brain and can hold himself together a little better. My ONE concrete concrete is to put an end to excited on leash lunging when he sees something he wants (person, dog, or a ball usually).

First class is April 7th. Let's see how far we can get between now and him turning two in November.


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## Flaming

leonburger mix? Those tend to go out of their mind "zomg loves everything!!!!" 









Manna is like this too but getting better.


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## CptJack

Flaming said:


> leonburger mix? Those tend to go out of their mind "zomg loves everything!!!!"
> 
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> 
> Manna is like this too but getting better.


I'd buy it. I don't know what his deal is - he still has random periods of being suspicious of people and stuff but he's also basically still a teenager mentally and more and more he just. Uh. Bambis, to borrow a term I've seen floating around. The dork.


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## Flaming

Thud could be a lot of things to be honest, I just thought of Leonberger mix because they have some pyrenees in their breed makeup I think. It would explain some of his twitches. 


taken from wiki


> First and foremost a family dog, the Leonberger's temperament is one of its most important and distinguishing characteristics. Well socialized and trained, the Leonberger is self-assured, insensitive to noise, submissive to family members, friendly toward children, well composed with passersby, and self-disciplined when obliging its family or property with protection. Robust, loyal, intelligent, playful, and kindly, they can thus be taken anywhere without difficulty and adjust easily to a variety of circumstances, including the introduction of other dogs


the protection part might be the suspicion?


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## CptJack

Flaming said:


> Thud could be a lot of things to be honest, I just thought of Leonberger mix because they have some pyrenees in their breed makeup I think. It would explain some of his twitches.


Yeah. He's definitely got some guardian stuff that comes out once in a while either way. I mean he's level headed and reasonable about it but - I don't know, mostly he's just a bizarre dog I love a lot and is going to make me deal with a totally different type of temperament than I'm used to. Should be fun, regardless!


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## elrohwen

I'll join this support group!

This: 


> He is highly excitable, easily distracted, has the attention span of a weasel on crack.


Pretty much describes Watson exactly. He can go from 0 to over-stimulated in seconds, and is often more interested in sniffing and checking out his environment than checking in with me. He's 19 months now and the last 10 months have been extremely frustrating at times. I really didn't know what I was getting into with teenage male sporting dog brain. He's lucky he's cute and a good snuggler!

In the last month or so I have seen some glimmers of maturity. I wasn't sure he would stop running off in agility, but after 12 weeks of classes he's improved dramatically. Besides the actual class work, he's come so far in his ability to wait quietly for his turn without lunging at every dog in the vicinity or whining. He's not exactly calm, but he is learning to control his emotions and impulses and I can count on someone in the class being more wild than him.

He's also gone from deaf to the world while sniffing to actually responding to his name. His recall isn't nearly perfect, and I only sometimes trust him "off leash" (ie dragging a 20ft line) but I have a lot more trust that he will come back and he is keeping his eye on me, even if it doesn't seem like it. 

I've always wanted to do dog sports, and for a long time I was upset that I was failing as a trainer and that he wasn't ever going to ready to enter the ring. Turns out I was doing a lot of things right, and he really needed to mature. He's not an easy dog, but I've found that he does love to work - it's just a matter of keeping him focused on working with me, vs getting bored and making his own fun. And he really is the sweetest dog on the planet.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I'll join this support group!
> 
> This:
> 
> 
> Pretty much describes Watson exactly. He can go from 0 to over-stimulated in seconds, and is often more interested in sniffing and checking out his environment than checking in with me. He's 19 months now and the last 10 months have been extremely frustrating at times. I really didn't know what I was getting into with teenage male sporting dog brain. He's lucky he's cute and a good snuggler!
> 
> In the last month or so I have seen some glimmers of maturity. I wasn't sure he would stop running off in agility, but after 12 weeks of classes he's improved dramatically. Besides the actual class work, he's come so far in his ability to wait quietly for his turn without lunging at every dog in the vicinity or whining. He's not exactly calm, but he is learning to control his emotions and impulses and I can count on someone in the class being more wild than him.
> 
> He's also gone from deaf to the world while sniffing to actually responding to his name. His recall isn't nearly perfect, and I only sometimes trust him "off leash" (ie dragging a 20ft line) but I have a lot more trust that he will come back and he is keeping his eye on me, even if it doesn't seem like it.
> 
> I've always wanted to do dog sports, and for a long time I was upset that I was failing as a trainer and that he wasn't ever going to ready to enter the ring. Turns out I was doing a lot of things right, and he really needed to mature. He's not an easy dog, but I've found that he does love to work - it's just a matter of keeping him focused on working with me, vs getting bored and making his own fun. And he really is the sweetest dog on the planet.


I am really lucky that I don't have to compete with Thud's nose - He's not all that sniffy, thank goodness - and his recall has stayed solid, probably through equal parts luck and the fact that he's easy to distract from what distracts him and recalling involves running full tilt toward something and he likes (really really likes) doing that anyway 

Otherwise, yeah. I do love him dearly - as you said, he's sweet as anything - and I am seeing some maturity. Signs of maybe someday maturity, anyway, here and there and for very brief moments, but it's in there. I'm hopeful that by fall you and I will both see some extended periods of sanity.

As an aside, I still think these two would have the best time in the WORLD playing with each other. Mia and Kylie are a lot alike and would hate each other. Watson and Thud I think would decide they were long lost soulmates.


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## goodgirl

I'm so glad Daisy and I aren't the only ones! We have been together for 14 months now, she's almost 2 years old we think (rescue). Dog reactive, leash reactive...she's all about playing! And food! And sniffing! And people! She's just a dynamo and tends to be an anxiety ridden little thing around new things. 

For instance, I think we FINALLY have success with loose leash walking! :rockon: Just last week I tried a looong leash, like 12 feet, tied around my waist. With a type of no pull harness. I'm keeping my fingers crossed...I take up the slack when she starts to get worried about passing yards with dogs that she's concerned about, and still have to play LAT with some.

We play impulse control games (need to practice more) and relaxation (also need more).

And she's almost totally blowing me off on off-leash recalls this spring. She was doing so well last fall! Guess I need to up the ante to prime rib or something, I don't know. It's funny, because the foster dog I've had for 2-1/2 weeks is like 100%, altho I don't let her get as far away...


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I am really lucky that I don't have to compete with Thud's nose - He's not all that sniffy, thank goodness - and his recall has stayed solid, probably through equal parts luck and the fact that he's easy to distract from what distracts him and recalling involves running full tilt toward something and he likes (really really likes) doing that anyway
> 
> Otherwise, yeah. I do love him dearly - as you said, he's sweet as anything - and I am seeing some maturity. Signs of maybe someday maturity, anyway, here and there and for very brief moments, but it's in there. I'm hopeful that by fall you and I will both see some extended periods of sanity.
> 
> As an aside, I still think these two would have the best time in the WORLD playing with each other. Mia and Kylie are a lot alike and would hate each other. Watson and Thud I think would decide they were long lost soulmates.


The nose kills me. I mean, spaniels are hunting dogs and all, but you'd think he was a beagle some days. Some of it is wanting to hunt/track animals outside, which is fine for the most part. The sniffing that I hate is when he has to sniff where other dogs have been. After a sit/stay, he will linger with his nose to the ground where the other dogs' butts have been. I hate the hormonal teenage boy sniffing. The other day in agility we were waiting our turn and he lunged at a nearby tunnel about 10 times - he could tell someone else had peed there and really really wanted to go check it out (and probably mark it).

Next year I'm going to the Welshie Nationals since they're not far away and it would be really awesome if we could enter some rally and/or obedience while we're there (since I don't think he'll be winning in the conformation ring). I'm getting sick of those people who got a RN on their 9 month old. lol I'll be over the moon when he's mature enough to focus through an entire Rally course.

I think Thud and Watson would be bestest friends! Unfortunately I've started to notice a little dog reactivity from Watson with maturity. I think he's sick of other males giving him the evil eye and snarking at him, and he's started to bark at certain male dogs (usually ones who are staring him down). He used to react to snark with a play bow, but now he just gets annoyed, like he's saying "Hey! Why are you growling at me?! I just wanted to be your friend!" I'm wary about him meeting any males on leash now, though all of his best dog friends are males so go figure. More and more I see what you always say about neutered males just not liking intact males, though I also see intact males who aren't crazy about other intact males.


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## shallbe

I'll join, though I have few specific goals right now. I was looking for a chance to brag, though, and this seems like a good place!

I have always wanted DaPuppies to be able to be around people, and especially to go places with me and be good dogs. Well, I haven't had much chance to train them for any of these things, but I've done what I can. It's paying off! We have gone to the park and to other peoples' houses recently, and they have been pretty good! At first at the parks they were crazy, but each time it is taking less time for them to calm down and start listening. They are not perfect--indeed, many of you who really are great at training would still be annoyed with them--but they are much better than they used to be. They were actually listening to commands like "sit" and "lay down" in the park today, and there were all kinds of distractions. I also could have a little bit of a normal walk without them pulling so hard...we've been working on loose leash for a vERY long time...maybe it's finally sinking in.

I get very discouraged sometimes because I don't have a lot of time to work with them. But we are living proof that if you just keep plodding along, you will make progress.

Our current goal is a solid release. I didn't know to teach a release in the beginning, so neither of them understand that very well. 

shallbe


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> The nose kills me. I mean, spaniels are hunting dogs and all, but you'd think he was a beagle some days. Some of it is wanting to hunt/track animals outside, which is fine for the most part. The sniffing that I hate is when he has to sniff where other dogs have been. After a sit/stay, he will linger with his nose to the ground where the other dogs' butts have been. I hate the hormonal teenage boy sniffing. The other day in agility we were waiting our turn and he lunged at a nearby tunnel about 10 times - he could tell someone else had peed there and really really wanted to go check it out (and probably mark it).
> 
> Next year I'm going to the Welshie Nationals since they're not far away and it would be really awesome if we could enter some rally and/or obedience while we're there (since I don't think he'll be winning in the conformation ring). I'm getting sick of those people who got a RN on their 9 month old. lol I'll be over the moon when he's mature enough to focus through an entire Rally course.
> 
> I think Thud and Watson would be bestest friends! Unfortunately I've started to notice a little dog reactivity from Watson with maturity. I think he's sick of other males giving him the evil eye and snarking at him, and he's started to bark at certain male dogs (usually ones who are staring him down). He used to react to snark with a play bow, but now he just gets annoyed, like he's saying "Hey! Why are you growling at me?! I just wanted to be your friend!" I'm wary about him meeting any males on leash now, though all of his best dog friends are males so go figure. More and more I see what you always say about neutered males just not liking intact males, though I also see intact males who aren't crazy about other intact males.



It's okay, Jubel and Watson can still be BFFs if they ever cross paths. Jubel has never taken issue with any of the intact males he's met. And as we've decided Jubel and Watson are long lost brothers who just happen to look nothing alike haha.

Actually I take that back... his arch enemy does still have his balls but that isn't why they hate each other.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> It's okay, Jubel and Watson can still be BFFs if they ever cross paths. Jubel has never taken issue with any of the intact males he's met. And as we've decided Jubel and Watson are long lost brothers who just happen to look nothing alike haha.
> 
> Actually I take that back... his arch enemy does still have his balls but that isn't why they hate each other.


Haha. Brothers from another mother! 

Waton's bff is a neutered male who is so reactive that it took us 2 hours to introduce them. Watson just head to wear him down with his charm! lol


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> The nose kills me. I mean, spaniels are hunting dogs and all, but you'd think he was a beagle some days. Some of it is wanting to hunt/track animals outside, which is fine for the most part. The sniffing that I hate is when he has to sniff where other dogs have been.


I'm with you! I don't mind it outside but he goes crazy with the sniffing where other dogs have been. I call him the Cadbury bunny because his nose makes a funny sound when he is on a sniffing spree (not that I expected anything different with a hound). I am definitely going to be following this thread! My pup is only 7-8 months old so I know that he has a long way to go before he's mature. It's going to be a rough year or 2 lol.


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## Jen2010

I'll join this group.


> a dog who is TOTALLY IN LOVE WITH THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD OMG.


 Yep this has been Pepper since day one. She's now a year and 4 months old and has only calmed slightly (with training).

She also has prey drive that's very hard to train out. She would never hurt a fly (intentionally) but she LOVES to chase anything that runs!


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## goodgirl

Speaking of noses, has anyone every tried an animal pelt as a reward? Guess the idea is that your dog getting to sniff it is a non-food reward. If so, I'd love to know where to buy something like that just to try it out.


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## CptJack

goodgirl said:


> Speaking of noses, has anyone every tried an animal pelt as a reward? Guess the idea is that your dog getting to sniff it is a non-food reward. If so, I'd love to know where to buy something like that just to try it out.


The tanning process removes most of the scent, to be honest, but I've got a whole bunch of fur scraps in a box lot on ebay and still have some and a couple of rabbit hides floating around I *also* got from there. They could probably be re-scented with something from a hunting/fishing shop. (They make various animal musks)


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## elrohwen

CleanRun.com sells a lot of tugs made with fur. Like CptJack said I think most of the scent is gone, but some dogs really like them.


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## RBark

Have you ever read Control Unleashed?

In particular, Look At That! Exercises. It's what I use to get dogs to focus on me. It essentially is a method which turns the environment into a cue to look at you. It's helpful for dogs that spaz out about their environments (not necessarily spaz in a bad way). So whenever the dog sees another dog, it's a cue to look back at you.


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## elrohwen

RBark said:


> Have you ever read Control Unleashed?
> 
> In particular, Look At That! Exercises. It's what I use to get dogs to focus on me. It essentially is a method which turns the environment into a cue to look at you. It's helpful for dogs that spaz out about their environments (not necessarily spaz in a bad way). So whenever the dog sees another dog, it's a cue to look back at you.


I've had a lot of success with LAT, and the "Give me a break" game. I really like Control Unleashed for dogs like the ones in this thread.


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## jade5280

I'm going to look into that book. I talked to the instructor for our next class. She said we can come in early to let Ryker sniff out the room we are going to be in. Also, they have a wall that they call the "wall of love" that we could go behind in case he is too distracted by the other dogs and people. She said the max number of people in the class will be 10. I'm hoping there will be a smaller turn out.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Also, they have a wall that they call the "wall of love" that we could go behind in case he is too distracted by the other dogs and people.


LOL! I love the name.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> LOL! I love the name.


Haha I know! A lot better than "the wall of shame"


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## CptJack

At Petsmart today, someone actually said to their dog, while passing us "Why can't you behave like him?!"

I never thought I would see the day....

Granted, today we also went from LOVE ME to, inexplicably, him thinking that an employee we saw on the way in wanted to eat him and was the scariest thing in the world, but still!


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## gingerkid

Count me in. I'm looking forward to a full summer where I can work on Snowball's reactivity consistently without interruptions from things like kitchen renovations and "getting married".  I also am going to work on how he sometimes rushes other dogs to greet them. It has definitely improved with increased socialization, but my neighbor actually agreed to help us, so I can work on it properly!

At the shelter, when we work on excitibility; it is mostly consistency. The dog doesn't get anything it wants (a leash put on, the door to its kennel open, etc.) unless the dog is being calm. Which is.... probably next to impossible with a 100+lb teenager. >.<


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## CptJack

gingerkid said:


> At the shelter, when we work on excitibility; it is mostly consistency. The dog doesn't get anything it wants (a leash put on, the door to its kennel open, etc.) unless the dog is being calm. Which is.... probably next to impossible with a 100+lb teenager. >.<


I've seen some improvement from Thud in the past, I don't know, couple of days or so? It's an overall sort of thing as I basically most heavily reward him lying down and at least appearing calm - and keeping a sample bag of kibble (not his usual) on the desk that he gets by lying beside the desk and NOT pestering me.. It seems to be helping, at least a little. 

But yeah, there are places there are some pretty big challenges, because he'll sit and be calm ("calm") and do what I ask and then EXPLODE. So at this point I think (maybe?) it's going to be desensitization and duration. Mostly duration. Like, yeah, you CAN keep lying down even _if_ you suddenly smelled/saw/thought about something awesome. 

Dogs, man.


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## CptJack

Oh. Randomly.

My other 'by the end of summer' goal is to teach Jack to lie down. Yeah, really. He knows other things pretty well. Down is not his thing. He used to have it and lost it. At this point we've got his front end down in a nice bow. His rear end stays in the air. My goal is that by September it's an actual DOWN. 

...My dogs are weird, y'all.


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## jade5280

We had success this morning. When the SO and I left for work this morning, Ryker did not make a single peep. I've been testing out different things to see what helps/hurts his separation anxiety. Usually he barks and paces for 1-2 hours and chews up the door frame and poops in the house. I think his anxiety is linked more to me than my SO. This morning the SO brought him for a walk so he couldn't see me leave. Then when SO left, he gave Ryker a kong filled with frozen hamburger. He was totally silent. We've given Ryker free roam of the house and I think that is helping. 

I feel like there is finally a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm not getting my hopes up though because his anxiety is usually the worst at lunch time when I come home, play/exercise him and then leave. I'm going to have SO let him out at lunch time today to see if it will make a difference.

Also, we've been giving a small kong w/raw hamburger 2x's a day (once in the morning, once at lunch). It probably adds up to about 1/2 cup. Is this ok to do long-term if I cut his food back? Should I switch it up with different meat sources?


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## gingerkid

jade5280 said:


> Also, we've been giving a small kong w/raw hamburger 2x's a day (once in the morning, once at lunch). It probably adds up to about 1/2 cup. Is this ok to do long-term if I cut his food back? Should I switch it up with different meat sources?


Probably. I'd probably switch to ground turkey/chicken every so often though, especially if the main protein in his kibble is beef or red meat.


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## elrohwen

That's great that Ryker is doing better! His level of SA sounds a lot like Watson, so that might work for us too. We haven't left him out of his crate at all yet because we're not sure what will happen, but having my DH leave him instead of me would be a great idea.


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## Kyllobernese

I will join the group too with Kris. She is 15 months so almost the same age as Thud. She is doing great with her obedience now but she is bad about meeting new dogs and sometimes even the dogs she knows. She barks and lunges at them unless I am concentrating on her at all times. She is good with people, ignores them but does not mind them patting her. Her Stand Stay is solid and she will stand while four or five people take turns going over her. She does not go up to people but does not shy away from them.

It is this "dog" issue. At a recent fun match, outside the ring I had to constantly either block her view of a strange dog or walk away. While in the ring she was fine, never bothered the dogs outside the ring when she was obeying commands. It just seems like it is not getting any better. She just wants to play with them and if I let her go up to them she just sniffs them. She never goes up to them on long sits and downs even when she breaks the stay. She just comes up to me. (we are working on that, not the coming to me but the Stay means stay)

Since she is a Doberman I don't want people to think she is vicious as when she lunges she looks like she would like to eat the other dog.


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## jade5280

gingerkid said:


> Probably. I'd probably switch to ground turkey/chicken every so often though, especially if the main protein in his kibble is beef or red meat.


I think I'm going to do that. I'll check with the butcher to see what they offer for ground meats, maybe even buy a meat grinder so I can do it myself. We feed a rotation of kibble from different proteins.




elrohwen said:


> That's great that Ryker is doing better! His level of SA sounds a lot like Watson, so that might work for us too. We haven't left him out of his crate at all yet because we're not sure what will happen, but having my DH leave him instead of me would be a great idea.


I think it's a good idea to have someone not as connected to him as you are to be the last to leave. Maybe you could start by just giving him 1 room. I was hesitant about giving him the whole house. He doesn't seem to be destructive though but that may change lol. We'll see how it goes

I have a wireless IP cam in the kitchen that I can watch on my phone to check in on him. I'm going to add more to the rest of the house.


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## gingerkid

So, just now, (and I am still amazed at this), Snowball free-shaped stepping onto a step stool (novel object) and pivot (he pivoted about 130 degrees and then there was a chair in the way), which we've never really worked on before! 

This is a huge deal for us because Snowball usually gets frustrated with free-shaping and just lays down and stares at me. Which he did this time, but after a few seconds of me ignoring his doing nothing he started trying again! So, to recap: Snowball interacted with a novel object, free-shaped a familiar behavior on the novel object, and free-shaped a completely new behavior on the novel object.


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## jade5280

gingerkid said:


> So, just now, (and I am still amazed at this), Snowball free-shaped stepping onto a step stool (novel object) and pivot (he pivoted about 130 degrees and then there was a chair in the way), which we've never really worked on before!


Very cool! I haven't taught Ryker to step up or stand on anything. I would like to practice when the weather gets warmer and the snow melts.


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## jade5280

OMG! The SO let him out at lunch and then left. After he left, Ryker actually ATE from his wobbler!!! He whined a little and walked around from room to room, looking at the door for 30 min. NO BARKING. He was anxious, but calm. Not frantic like he is when I leave. And then...HE WENT TO SLEEP IN HIS CRATE! I can't believe the difference. I knew that he was more anxious when I left, but I had no idea that his anxiety was pretty much entirely directed towards me. I don't know why I didn't try this sooner. Hallelujah! One day down....


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## CptJack

gingerkid said:


> So, just now, (and I am still amazed at this), Snowball free-shaped stepping onto a step stool (novel object) and pivot (he pivoted about 130 degrees and then there was a chair in the way), which we've never really worked on before!
> 
> This is a huge deal for us because Snowball usually gets frustrated with free-shaping and just lays down and stares at me. Which he did this time, but after a few seconds of me ignoring his doing nothing he started trying again! So, to recap: Snowball interacted with a novel object, free-shaped a familiar behavior on the novel object, and free-shaped a completely new behavior on the novel object.





jade5280 said:


> Very cool! I haven't taught Ryker to step up or stand on anything. I would like to practice when the weather gets warmer and the snow melts.



YAAAAY. I'm thrilled to bits for both of you. Finding something that works and seeing improvement when something's stressing you is the best feeling ever.


My progress today isn't Thud, and Thud is who needs the work but -

I rarely let my dogs off leash near the house (outside the fence, anyway) The house itself is a distraction, there are more people and activity and there's that chained dog if you go in one direction. I'm also just plain more paranoid around the house. We leash up and either hike out or drive out to somewhere else, but Kylie's never given me any issue and we did agility in the open field in the middle of a freaking FARM a couple of weeks ago - So.

We did an HOUR of obedience and tricks and (mostly) agility flat work in the field nearest the house. The only (brief) distraction we had was in the form our cat coming to steal treats. 

For me, that's a big, big win.


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## gingerkid

jade5280 said:


> OMG! The SO let him out at lunch and then left. After he left, Ryker actually ATE from his wobbler!!! He whined a little and walked around from room to room, looking at the door for 30 min. NO BARKING. He was anxious, but calm. Not frantic like he is when I leave. And then...HE WENT TO SLEEP IN HIS CRATE! I can't believe the difference. I knew that he was more anxious when I left, but I had no idea that his anxiety was pretty much entirely directed towards me. I don't know why I didn't try this sooner. Hallelujah! One day down....


Yay for Ryker!




CptJack said:


> I rarely let my dogs off leash near the house (outside the fence, anyway) The house itself is a distraction, there are more people and activity and there's that chained dog if you go in one direction. I'm also just plain more paranoid around the house. We leash up and either hike out or drive out to somewhere else, but Kylie's never given me any issue and we did agility in the open field in the middle of a freaking FARM a couple of weeks ago - So.
> 
> We did an HOUR of obedience and tricks and (mostly) agility flat work in the field nearest the house. The only (brief) distraction we had was in the form our cat coming to steal treats.
> 
> For me, that's a big, big win.


Awesome!


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> I think it's a good idea to have someone not as connected to him as you are to be the last to leave. Maybe you could start by just giving him 1 room. I was hesitant about giving him the whole house. He doesn't seem to be destructive though but that may change lol. We'll see how it goes
> 
> I have a wireless IP cam in the kitchen that I can watch on my phone to check in on him. I'm going to add more to the rest of the house.


I'm really worried about destruction. He isn't destructive at all when we're home, so I'm not worried about boredom. I'm worried that he'll start digging and scratching at the doors/wall/floor as soon as we're gone. Where did you get your wireless camera? I think we'll need something like that before we're comfortable leaving him out, even in one room.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> We did an HOUR of obedience and tricks and (mostly) agility flat work in the field nearest the house. The only (brief) distraction we had was in the form our cat coming to steal treats.
> 
> For me, that's a big, big win.


That's awesome! We have a lot of open land, but way too much to fence in and I would be thrilled to have a dog who could work on obedience and agility without running off.


----------



## BostonBullMama

So... I thought we had recall pretty down pat. Whenever we've gone for walks, Toby has come back immediately after being called, and even in the house when he's sleeping, if I say 'touch' he comes. 





BUT, last night I let go of the leash on the way back to the house because he seemed to really want to go up a hill and I just didn't feel like it. Keep in mind - I have let him off leash in our area MANY times. So up he runs to the top of the hill while I throw recycling in the bins. Of course, he poops up there so now I have to go up there too, but I needed him to come back because the bags were attached to his leash (which was dragging behind him). So I call him, and nothing... he just stood there staring at me. So I call him again, still nothing... So I go up the hill and call him again, he looks like he's about to make a break for it, but the leash is by my foot so I step on it and pick it up before he can get away. 

I know he was probably just excited since we had gone out which meant he was in a cage for an hour or so, but what if something had happened where I REALLY needed him to come back and he just stands there?? So.. we'll be practicing this one a bit more... I think the new scents from spring are bringing out his inner hound.... lol


----------



## SDRRanger

elrohwen said:


> I'm really worried about destruction. He isn't destructive at all when we're home, so I'm not worried about boredom. I'm worried that he'll start digging and scratching at the doors/wall/floor as soon as we're gone. Where did you get your wireless camera? I think we'll need something like that before we're comfortable leaving him out, even in one room.


What I did with my foster was call the house phone and put it on speaker...then I muted my cell. This lets you hear what's going on in the house and if you're only in the car or down the block listening you can get back quick if needed. 

Another option is if you have Skype, a home computer, and a smart phone. You can skype yourself (make two accounts) and leave it on to watch from outside. That way you're using the house wifi still.


----------



## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> I'm really worried about destruction. He isn't destructive at all when we're home, so I'm not worried about boredom. I'm worried that he'll start digging and scratching at the doors/wall/floor as soon as we're gone. Where did you get your wireless camera? I think we'll need something like that before we're comfortable leaving him out, even in one room.


I got it from amazon. This one http://www.amazon.com/D-Link-DCS-93...ie=UTF8&qid=1395411776&sr=8-2&keywords=ip+cam

You just need to download the app on your phone and you can watch from there or from a computer


----------



## jade5280

CptJack said:


> We did an HOUR of obedience and tricks and (mostly) agility flat work in the field nearest the house. The only (brief) distraction we had was in the form our cat coming to steal treats.
> 
> For me, that's a big, big win.


That's awesome! I'm hoping someday I can do 10 minutes of training without distraction lol


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## jade5280

BostonBullMama said:


> I know he was probably just excited since we had gone out which meant he was in a cage for an hour or so, but what if something had happened where I REALLY needed him to come back and he just stands there?? So.. we'll be practicing this one a bit more... I think the new scents from spring are bringing out his inner hound.... lol


Great video. He's so adorable. I know how you feel. It's so nerve racking when you realize that you aren't in control.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> That's awesome! We have a lot of open land, but way too much to fence in and I would be thrilled to have a dog who could work on obedience and agility without running off.


We have a tiny fenced area right off the back/kitchen door, but it's really not big enough to do anything more than the odd game of fetch with and have as a potty area (a hill, and in the woods). It's nice to have and I appreciate having it but yeah, not real useful for much work so having Kylie being able to work closer to home is nice. Makes me want some agility equipment in the future.

All the dogs are good to be off leash away from the house, even harebrained Thud, and the few times they've gotten out the front door they've recalled back in, but man oh man. Overall they are very "I know where we're going and what we're doing so I'm gonna ignore you and go to the car now. Or visit the neighbor because we do that sometimes too" and um. No.



jade5280 said:


> That's awesome! I'm hoping someday I can do 10 minutes of training without distraction lol


That's about my goal with Thud  We'll see if his classes help. Kylie's just... an intensely focused little dog. Also almost 2, which is the Magic Number of a lot of dogs, apparently.


----------



## BostonBullMama

jade5280 said:


> Great video. He's so adorable. I know how you feel. It's so nerve racking when you realize that you aren't in control.


 Oh for sure! I totally though he had it down pat, solid. Apparently not! lol


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## CptJack

BostonBullMama said:


> Oh for sure! I totally though he had it down pat, solid. Apparently not! lol


Dogs, man....

I know you didn't ask but -

Don't phase treats entirely out with recall. Well, rewards. Keep it randomized, for sure, but keep it something he's paid for (change up how and what and when, but yeah). Otherwise, recalling seems to sort of lose value for the dog over time of getting nothing for it and it's the one command you REALLY don't want that to happen with.


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## BostonBullMama

CptJack said:


> Dogs, man....
> 
> I know you didn't ask but -
> 
> Don't phase treats entirely out with recall. Well, rewards. Keep it randomized, for sure, but keep it something he's paid for (change up how and what and when, but yeah). Otherwise, recalling seems to sort of lose value for the dog over time of getting nothing for it and it's the one command you REALLY don't want that to happen with.


Oh I know, I always have treats on me for walks and he knows he gets a treat when he comes back. It's never, not been that way. Except maybe at the dog park? Even then though... he comes back when called, we give him a good pet and then tell him to "go play" and he takes off again making the play time the reward for coming back. I've never called him just to leash him either. I call him periodically throughout the walk just to see if he's listening and then he gets scratches or treats or whatever and then he runs off again.


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## Jadesy

BostonBullMama said:


> Oh I know, I always have treats on me for walks and he knows he gets a treat when he comes back. It's never, not been that way. Except maybe at the dog park? Even then though... he comes back when called, we give him a good pet and then tell him to "go play" and he takes off again making the play time the reward for coming back. I've never called him just to leash him either. I call him periodically throughout the walk just to see if he's listening and then he gets scratches or treats or whatever and then he runs off again.


For me, I have a variety of rewards for recall, which helps with it generally being a rocket response. Sometimes it's treats, sometimes it's Really Stinky Treats, sometimes, it's the jackpot: the rabbit fur.


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## gingerkid

BostonBullMama said:


> Oh I know, I always have treats on me for walks and he knows he gets a treat when he comes back. It's never, not been that way. Except maybe at the dog park? Even then though... he comes back when called, we give him a good pet and then tell him to "go play" and he takes off again making the play time the reward for coming back. I've never called him just to leash him either. I call him periodically throughout the walk just to see if he's listening and then he gets scratches or treats or whatever and then he runs off again.


I'm such a bad person - I always take treats to the off-leash areas (our main "dog park" is 150+ hectacres... the smaller ones are all larger than 10 acres). What I _don't_ do is give Snowball treats if there is another dog within 50+ feet of me or give treats to other people's dogs. They just have to settle for pets. 

Heh. Snowball has THE best recall. Like, 100% fool proof. If I have cooked salmon with me.


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## BostonBullMama

gingerkid said:


> I'm such a bad person - I always take treats to the off-leash areas (our main "dog park" is 150+ hectacres... the smaller ones are all larger than 10 acres). What I _don't_ do is give Snowball treats if there is another dog within 50+ feet of me or give treats to other people's dogs. They just have to settle for pets.
> 
> Heh. Snowball has THE best recall. Like, 100% fool proof. If I have cooked salmon with me.


Lol, yea I won't treat if there are other dogs nearby at the park or the house. I don't need a fight breaking out because everybody wants the Toby-Treats lol. 
I can't even really do 'jackpot' treats because he has allergies to grains and chicken so we have to be careful with what we give him. Basically it's hypoallergenic biscuits or I have to prep something special.


----------



## aiw

elrohwen said:


> I'm really worried about destruction. He isn't destructive at all when we're home, so I'm not worried about boredom. I'm worried that he'll start digging and scratching at the doors/wall/floor as soon as we're gone. Where did you get your wireless camera? I think we'll need something like that before we're comfortable leaving him out, even in one room.


If you've got a laptop the webcam works wonders, skyping is an option, but I used the 'photobooth' program to record.


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## gingerkid

BostonBullMama said:


> Lol, yea I won't treat if there are other dogs nearby at the park or the house. I don't need a fight breaking out because everybody wants the Toby-Treats lol.
> I can't even really do 'jackpot' treats because he has allergies to grains and chicken so we have to be careful with what we give him. Basically it's hypoallergenic biscuits or I have to prep something special.


Have you looked into Orijen treats? They have some that are one single protein source (Bison, Duck, etc.) and they're 100% freeze-dried meat. Alternatively, freeze-dried beef liver (I use PureBites, but there are lots of other bands). It is generally pretty sturdy but not so hard that you can't break it up with your hands.


----------



## Kyllobernese

Went to my Obedience group today and for the first time Kris did not bark at any of the other dogs, even one of the other people there said how much better she is getting. Hopefully it keeps improving as she only does it because she wants to go up to the strange dog.

We had more snow today, is it never going to end?


----------



## BostonBullMama

gingerkid said:


> Have you looked into Orijen treats? They have some that are one single protein source (Bison, Duck, etc.) and they're 100% freeze-dried meat. Alternatively, freeze-dried beef liver (I use PureBites, but there are lots of other bands). It is generally pretty sturdy but not so hard that you can't break it up with your hands.


Yea I think we've used those before. I don't like how they feel, it's like styrofoam... We typically break up the treats we give him. I've also considered buying a chicken hearts and slicing those up - except that it's chicken.. are there other tiny hearts you can buy, bake, and slice?


----------



## CptJack

"Training with Kylie is like a group project with a telepathic genius who is only occasionally sadistic enough to want to make a fool of me. Training with Thud is like wrestling with a greased pig." 

I feel this sums up a lot.

I also just signed him up for foundations agility starting June 17 - at the end of Basic Obedience 1, but before 2.

I do not know how I feel about this, and may very well chicken out.


----------



## Hector4

BostonBullMama said:


> Yea I think we've used those before. I don't like how they feel, it's like styrofoam... We typically break up the treats we give him. I've also considered buying a chicken hearts and slicing those up - except that it's chicken.. are there other tiny hearts you can buy, bake, and slice?


freeze dried beef liver
dehydrated lamb lungs
freeze dried tripe
freeze dried salmon treats
ziwipeak air dried dog food
vital essentials freeze dried dog food and the turkey nibblets
what about sweet potato treats?


you can always boil raw meat and cut it up


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## CptJack

You can also buy beef liver, bake it off and cut it up. It smells awful, but it's a great, high value, treat.


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## jade5280

CptJack said:


> Training with Thud is like wrestling with a greased pig.


Haha I could say the same thing about Ryker. I want to do agility with him but i don't think that's going to happen for a while.



Kyllobernese said:


> Went to my Obedience group today and for the first time Kris did not bark at any of the other dogs, even one of the other people there said how much better she is getting. Hopefully it keeps improving as she only does it because she wants to go up to the strange dog


I envy you. 

We had our first day of obedience today and Ryker pretty much acted the way I expected. Barking LOUDLY the whole class. Pulling, wanting to get to the other dogs. He's really good with commands like sit, down, stay, etc. It's just getting his attention on me when there are other dogs and people around. He does not like to sit and wait patiently. I need to find a REALLY high valve treat that he likes more than barking at other dogs.


----------



## CptJack

jade5280 said:


> Haha I could say the same thing about Ryker. I want to do agility with him but i don't think that's going to happen for a while.


Well, worth remembering that Thud is twice as old as Ryker, so cut your guy some slack. 

And even then, I don't think I'd trust Thud in agility foundations if I hadn't taken the class with Kylie and seen the level of obedience and behavior in the dogs in those particular classes/with that trainer. Kylie was WAY over prepared in that regard and actually hurt some by it. They're really good about dealing with both puppy brain and shy/nervous/fearful dogs. All they really want is a dog who knows how to sit and lie down. Everything else they build for agility, including things like focus on the handler and distractions. I'll probably even switch my personal training with him over to an agility focus shortly. To be honest, I don't think he has the attention span for much traditional obedience right now and with the extra motion and higher energy level of agility groundwork, I might get further :/.


----------



## gingerkid

Kyllobernese said:


> Went to my Obedience group today and for the first time Kris did not bark at any of the other dogs, even one of the other people there said how much better she is getting. Hopefully it keeps improving as she only does it because she wants to go up to the strange dog.


Yay for Kris improving!



BostonBullMama said:


> Yea I think we've used those before. I don't like how they feel, it's like styrofoam... We typically break up the treats we give him. I've also considered buying a chicken hearts and slicing those up - except that it's chicken.. are there other tiny hearts you can buy, bake, and slice?


Almost any butcher will be able to provide you with a variety of hearts, likely. I've had lamb, duck, and goose hearts, which are all really tasty (they're too tasty to feed to the dog, lol). Lamb heart is slightly smaller than my fist (but way smaller than beef heart), duck and goose hearts are only slightly bigger than chicken hearts.

The awful, awful smell is exactly the reason I don't bake off my own liver. There is a company called Puppy Love out of Calgary that does bake-dried treats (rather than freeze-dried) of a wide variety, including lung, heart, liver, etc. Snowball and the cat both love it. They also use a variety of protein sources including duck, bison, venison/elk, etc.

I only made homemade liver treats once. And that was one time too many.


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## CptJack

The smell of CHICKEN livers baking doesn't bother me at all - but I grew up in the south, those things fried are a normal part of many people's diets - but beef? Beef is just gross. Not so bad I can't deal but it's seriously not appealing.

Thanks for letting me in on somewhere that bake dries. Freeze dried ones, sadly (and surprisingly!), were a total flop here.


----------



## Kyllobernese

I was going to start Kris in Foundation Agility but they did not get enough dogs. Now I have decided to wait till fall and just continue on with the Obedience and maybe try Rally first. I think she would be a little too wild on the obstacles right now and the extra time is not going to hurt.


----------



## CptJack

Yeah. Our foundations classes are all flatwork so it should be reasonably safe. I'm not at ALL convinced I'm going any further with him, though. We'll see, I s'pose. 

I would do rally with him, but frankly that would require going to another club and... I'm lazy.


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## SDRRanger

CptJack said:


> Yeah. Our foundations classes are all flatwork so it should be reasonably safe. I'm not at ALL convinced I'm going any further with him, though. We'll see, I s'pose.
> 
> I would do rally with him, but frankly that would require going to another club and... I'm lazy.


Off topic, but I love the ears in your sig line lol


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## dagwall

I did slow baked chicken gizzards and hearts before and my house smelled awesome.


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## gingerkid

CptJack said:


> The smell of CHICKEN livers baking doesn't bother me at all - but I grew up in the south, those things fried are a normal part of many people's diets - but beef? Beef is just gross. Not so bad I can't deal but it's seriously not appealing.
> 
> Thanks for letting me in on somewhere that bake dries. Freeze dried ones, sadly (and surprisingly!), were a total flop here.


To be totally off topic, chicken livers don't even taste bad! Prepared the right way, they're pretty tasty. I mean, liverwurst is awesome, one of my faves. But I've eaten beef liver exactly once, and like baking them, it was one time too many. Blech.

To be ON topic, Snowball was being a total ass-hat at the park yesterday. I mean, not mean or aggressive or anything, but he spent the first 10 minutes completely ignoring me, not even looking at me, so he went back on the leash until we were on the trail instead of the big open field, and he was paying attention. His recall isn't 100% perfect, but it hasn't been that bad in a LONG time. He also stole two tennis balls, which... WTF, Snowball?

I'm chalking it up to him being excited and not getting enough exercise on Saturday since we were at a dog show all day, and about halfway through our walk he calmed down a bit, and was doing really well with "wait" when other dogs were coming towards us! But the next time we go to the park I am definitely taking the long line, even if its just for the first bit so I have some control while calms down some.


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## CptJack

SDRRanger said:


> Off topic, but I love the ears in your sig line lol


I love the dogs' ears. They're all so awesome >.> If I do say so myself.



dagwall said:


> I did slow baked chicken gizzards and hearts before and my house smelled awesome.


I actually dumping some hearts and gizzards out with some liver and baking that whole mess off is apparently doggy CRACK for my guys. It's awesome, though the gizzards are kind of hard to chop up. Chewy, or something.



gingerkid said:


> To be totally off topic, chicken livers don't even taste bad! Prepared the right way, they're pretty tasty. I mean, liverwurst is awesome, one of my faves. But I've eaten beef liver exactly once, and like baking them, it was one time too many. Blech.
> 
> To be ON topic, Snowball was being a total ass-hat at the park yesterday. I mean, not mean or aggressive or anything, but he spent the first 10 minutes completely ignoring me, not even looking at me, so he went back on the leash until we were on the trail instead of the big open field, and he was paying attention. His recall isn't 100% perfect, but it hasn't been that bad in a LONG time. He also stole two tennis balls, which... WTF, Snowball?
> 
> I'm chalking it up to him being excited and not getting enough exercise on Saturday since we were at a dog show all day, and about halfway through our walk he calmed down a bit, and was doing really well with "wait" when other dogs were coming towards us! But the next time we go to the park I am definitely taking the long line, even if its just for the first bit so I have some control while calms down some.



Yeah, the constant exposure to the smell is making me want to eat it to be honest. It just smells yummy. I will investigate at some point.

I think some if it may be spring? Though I don't know how much of that you're having there, light has to be changing. My dogs are all asshats right now. Hyper asshats. Who are getting lots and lots of exercise but *you don't understand, it's spring and BOUNCEBOUNCEBOUNCEWIGGLEWIGGLEWIGGLEBARKBARKBARK*. Even Jack - who has taken to stealing a leash once they come off and trying to bait the other dogs into playing chase.


----------



## elrohwen

I swear that Spring Fever is a real thing. Watson has been *horrible* lately. His brain just stopped working. DH and I keep singing the line from Pink Floyd's "The Wall" that goes "And the worms ate into his brain."

At nosework on Saturday he wouldn't work at all. He has never not worked in nosework, ever. He was so entirely uninterested and put his nose on the ground, sniffing where other dogs had walked, and stopping periodically to lick the floor. The dogs in our class are 2 intact males and a neutered male, so nobody was in heat. He also escaped from the search area to tear around the rest of the place, almost like he thought he was on the scent of something. They just bleached the whole facility after a parvo scare in puppy class, so I have no idea what he thought he was smelling. I'm also very glad the woman coming back into the building was able to shut the door fast enough, because he almost escaped outside. He only searched on our first turn, and each time after that I just put him back in the car after a couple minutes. It was really frustrating. It's one thing to blow me off in agility or obedience, and another to blow off his favorite activity in the world to lick the floor.


----------



## Kyllobernese

The way my horse was bucking and kicking up her heels when I fed her, Spring must be in the air even though we keep getting snow flurries every day and below freezing at night. Cloudy today so probably more snow flurries.


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## dagwall

CptJack said:


> I actually dumping some hearts and gizzards out with some liver and baking that whole mess off is apparently doggy CRACK for my guys. It's awesome, though the gizzards are kind of hard to chop up. Chewy, or something.


I used my cooking shears to cut them all up. Slow cooked in the oven for about 45-60 minutes before cutting at all, then cutting up into treat size and back in the oven for at least 30 minutes. I didn't trim the fat off the hearts last time, next time I will because they ended up pretty greasy. Just used the last of that batch at our nosework class this weekend so probably be making a new batch this week. Need to get to the store to buy some more gizzards first.


----------



## Jadesy

BostonBullMama said:


> Yea I think we've used those before. I don't like how they feel, it's like styrofoam... We typically break up the treats we give him. I've also considered buying a chicken hearts and slicing those up - except that it's chicken.. are there other tiny hearts you can buy, bake, and slice?


 Turkey hearts, or some places sell chunked lamb heart.


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## elrohwen

Just wanted to agree that chicken liver = fine, and beef liver = gross. I make it because I like the texture more than anything else I've made (I like to keep it in bigger chunks where he can nibble a bit without grabbing the whole thing). But oh goodness, the boiling stage with the smelly steam filling the house is so gross. The baking part doesn't bother me nearly as much. 

I'm still trying to find some beef heart. My instructor gave me venison heart once and it was great - super high value and great texture. The chicken hearts are ok, but a little too small.


----------



## gingerkid

CptJack said:


> I think some if it may be spring? Though I don't know how much of that you're having there, light has to be changing. My dogs are all asshats right now. Hyper asshats. Who are getting lots and lots of exercise but *you don't understand, it's spring and BOUNCEBOUNCEBOUNCEWIGGLEWIGGLEWIGGLEBARKBARKBARK*. Even Jack - who has taken to stealing a leash once they come off and trying to bait the other dogs into playing chase.


Maybe? Its still pretty firmly winter here, aside from the increased daylight. All the ponds that formed in the offleash park are still solid ice. Which I love (I love sliding on smooth ice!) but Snowball hates it, lol. And today he was a perfect gentleman. didn't go further than 15 feet or so away from me when he was on the long line (even with loads of slack), so I took it off and he was great, called off all the other dogs we met easily, even from fairly close (15 feet or so).

ETA: all this talk about hearts is making me want some. Cooked up into a pot pie.... om nom nom.


----------



## packetsmom

Add us to the "spring fever" group.

A week ago, Sam was the star pupil when it came to obedience when other dogs were all over the place. I kept him in when they were working other dogs and he just calmly laid at my feet, pretty as a picture. This past week? He was the basket case, acting all kinds of pushy and even reactive with a couple of other dogs. We had to put in more work getting him to ignore a neutral dog.

I'm thinking it might be another one of the "fear stages" giant breeds get coming on. He'd been over his headshy issue for months and now it's like he's right back at it. He'd also been doing great all winter ignoring people on walks, including kids and people on skis as well as pretty much ignoring other dogs and now we're working on reactivity again. All this along with him being on again off again with feeding makes me think he's hit another developmental spot where we're getting ready for some growth and his brain is all over the place.

We have a ScH trial coming up at the end of this summer and he'll be old enough for his first shot at the BH (the temperment test for Schutzhund, which is a little like a CGC in AKC in difficulty, with a few differences). I keep going back and forth about training for it, though, since I'm not sure he'll be at that point then or if we'll need to wait another year. I suppose we could just put in the work all summer and decide right before trial time.


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## elrohwen

Watson's not a giant breed, but he went through some weird fear stuff around 13 months old. He didn't have any fear periods as a younger puppy either so it was weird. I think it's over, though he still spooks/barks at stuff occasionally that he wouldn't before (he's 20 months now).


----------



## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> Watson's not a giant breed, but he went through some weird fear stuff around 13 months old. He didn't have any fear periods as a younger puppy either so it was weird. I think it's over, though he still spooks/barks at stuff occasionally that he wouldn't before (he's 20 months now).


I'm trying to just treat it like it's not a big deal and continue with consistent socialization. There is always, I think, a dark place in the back of my mind that worries that this will be the start of "major issues" that will be compounded by his size. Then, I remember 6 months ago, when he was still a nippy puppy mess with razor sharp teeth and how I worried then that he might never grow out of it. 

It is really, really good that I have people experienced with big, drivey dogs to help me out at the club. They've seen GSD's, dobermans, and rottweilers with reactivity and other issues and helped their owners through those and are a huge help. As an example, I had been thinking that Sam was insecure and anxious, when one of the trainers took one look at him and said, "No, he's not anxious or insecure, he just wants to do things his way and is willing to put up a fuss to get to do it." After watching her work with him, it was pretty clear she was right and this helped me change my approach and then in turn helped us make progress we otherwise might not have.

I also remember quite a few of our male GSD's in the club going through a more reactive period during adolescence and how nervous that made their owners until they got through it. No one wants a dog that turns out to be dangerous to other people or dogs and a dog that is big and fearful can easily be dangerous. We're working hard in obedience to get him under handler control and keep focus even with distractions and then we're working in protection to increase his confidence and trust in the handler. All that should help him as he deals with raging hormones.


----------



## jade5280

Every day has been incredible since I decided not to be the one to let Ryker out at lunch, and not to let him see me leave. I would say his separation anxiety is 90% diminished. He still gets free roam of the house and the only thing he has destroyed was a shoe that was left out.

Or class homework is look at me exercises and "stay". The final test at the end of the class will be to keep the dogs attention when someone knocks on the door and walks into the room (I'm assuming means to have the dog stay in position and not run off). I've been practicing this with him and he's doing really well. 

I also talked to another redbone owner online and they said their dog did much better in agility than obedience and pretty much acted the same way mine does in class. I'm not sure if I will continue with obedience after this. I want to, but I don't think Ryker enjoys it.


----------



## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> I also talked to another redbone owner online and they said their dog did much better in agility than obedience and pretty much acted the same way mine does in class. I'm not sure if I will continue with obedience after this. I want to, but I don't think Ryker enjoys it.


I think that's common in young energetic dogs. Watson enjoys some things about obedience, like heeling, but really dislikes others, like stays. It's just too much impulse control and not enough running around. That said, I'm very glad for the time I put into obedience classes (~1 year) because it really did help his impulse control. There are dogs in my agility classes without much or any obedience background (they only take agility classes) and it makes me glad he has the skills that he does. We did fun obedience classes that taught the fundamentals and tried to keep things fun, instead of drilling competition stuff. We would play musical chairs, for example, and do heeling patterns until the music stopped, then put the dogs in a stay while we ran to an open chair - lots of good distraction and a fast paced game, instead of just doing long stays over and over. Sometimes he found a particular class boring, but we worked through it and other times he had a blast. 

He does enjoy agility a lot more though, and is more engaged with me. Running around is its own reward.

I'm not counting out obedience either, I just think it's something he'll grow into around 4 or 5 years old. I've taken time off from our regular obedience class to focus on agility, and work on obedience stuff at home. I can really fine tune his heeling or retrieve using online classes, and those are obedience activities he enjoys. We can come back to some of the other stuff later.


----------



## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> I'm not counting out obedience either, I just think it's something he'll grow into around 4 or 5 years old. I've taken time off from our regular obedience class to focus on agility, and work on obedience stuff at home. I can really fine tune his heeling or retrieve using online classes, and those are obedience activities he enjoys. We can come back to some of the other stuff later.


Where do you find online classes? I would like to continue obedience but I'm thinking it may be better if I wait until he is somewhat settled down. I'm going to start training him to find antler sheds and I think obedience is necessary for that kind of activity so I will always be training at home. I was hoping to do shed training this winter but I never got around to it.


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## elrohwen

I would think that nosework or maybe tracking would be more useful for finding antler sheds. The only time scent work is done in obedience is at the highest levels, but then the dog is discriminating your scent on an object vs un-scented objects, so it's not the same thing as detection work. Maybe there is a nosework class in your area? It can be done with a dog at any level and they call it an "obedience free zone", because the dog is leading the activity rather than you telling him what to do. Some of the dogs in my nosework class with obedience titles actually struggled at first because they kept looking to their owners for instruction, while Watson was happy to tackle it independently.

I've started classes with the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy and I absolutely recommend it. They offer classes in obedience, rally, IPO, tracking, nosework, and other things with a variety of instructors. It costs varying amounts depending on the level you sign up for - in Gold you send videos for the instructor to watch, in Silver you can just participate in the discussion, and in Bronze you can watch but not interact. Last term I had a Gold spot in the Precision Heeling class and loved it. This term I'm a Silver in Focus, and a Bronze in Heeling Games and Tracking. The next term starts April 1st if you're interested in any of the classes.


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## jade5280

I did find one that is about a 45 min drive from me which isn't bad. I'm going to wait until obedience class is over before I start another class but I'm definitely going to contact them. I did check out the Fenzi Dog Academy. That is so cool, I never knew about online classes. I'm so glad I found a nosework place close to me! One thing at a time though otherwise I'm going to go into debt lol.


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## elrohwen

Haha. Classes are a downward spiral! For a little bit we were doing obedience on Monday, agility on Thursday, and nosework on Saturday. I cut back on obedience and though "Awesome, I'm saving so much money!"

Then I started Fenzi classes and splurged on a gold level spot. I told myself the next round I would spend less, but I wanted a silver spot in one class and definitely wanted to continue heeling at bronze. Then I wanted to start tracking with him this summer, but Tracking 1 wouldn't be offered again any time soon, so I added that one too (you get access to the lectures and forums for a year).

This is why I can only have one dog. lol


I bet Ryker will love nosework! It's what he was bred to do.


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## packetsmom

Socialization, socialization, socialization. That and adding in positive reinforcement training with a muzzle.


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## elrohwen

packetsmom said:


> Socialization, socialization, socialization. That and adding in positive reinforcement training with a muzzle.


Is the muzzle just for piece of mind around other dogs?


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## packetsmom

elrohwen said:


> Is the muzzle just for piece of mind around other dogs?


Primarily for vet care. I know he doesn't need to go in for a while, but after this morning, I'd rather he not be so afraid and doing positive reinforcement with the muzzle is one thing I can do to help him. I'm not worried about him with other dogs or people outside of the vets, but I think he'll need to be muzzled whenever we visit the vet from now on.


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## jade5280

I can see those Fenzi classes being very addicting just because they are so convenient. Ryker will love nosework for sure.


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## elrohwen

packetsmom said:


> Primarily for vet care. I know he doesn't need to go in for a while, but after this morning, I'd rather he not be so afraid and doing positive reinforcement with the muzzle is one thing I can do to help him. I'm not worried about him with other dogs or people outside of the vets, but I think he'll need to be muzzled whenever we visit the vet from now on.


Aww, poor pup. The vet is stressful even for the most happy go lucky dogs. Watson hides under the furniture.


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## Laurelin

There was one point I was in 5 classes a week. Now that Mia is unable to do agility it's cut back a lot. We're down to three!


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## jade5280

Laurelin said:


> There was one point I was in 5 classes a week. Now that Mia is unable to do agility it's cut back a lot. We're down to three!


Haha I could never do that! I feel like one class a week is exhausting.


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## elrohwen

I could totally do 5 classes a week, but my husband might kill me for spending that much money. Most 6 week classes here are ~$170 so 5 at a time would be a lot of money (says the girl who is in 3 Fenzi classes next term)


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I could totally do 5 classes a week, but my husband might kill me for spending that much money. Most 6 week classes here are ~$170 so 5 at a time would be a lot of money (says the girl who is in 3 Fenzi classes next term)



Yeah, my husband's kinda making faces at my 2 a week - with different dogs. I intend to keep Thud and Kylie each in a class with sporadic ones of others. It's not the class that's expensive (70.00/7 weeks), but the hour and a half each way in GAS. When the classes line up so they're back ot back and it's just one trip it's fine. When it's not it gets to be a bit much.

But this session: Mondays obedience and Thud, Tuesday's Kylie's agility. 

June 16 - just Tuesdays. Thud in agility foundations, followed immediately by Kylie in... Intermediate, I think technically, though the only class after that is weaves and practice trails. I'm not sure how Kylie's going to do waiting for an hour for her turn, but hey. Better than THUD trying to wait an hour and then do something with his brain 

Mostly I just really, really am looking forward to things starting. Dog classes are my primary social outlet and chance to get out of the house and do something for ME. The gap between classes is making me jittery.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Yeah, my husband's kinda making faces at my 2 a week - with different dogs. I intend to keep Thud and Kylie each in a class with sporadic ones of others. It's not the class that's expensive (70.00/7 weeks), but the hour and a half each way in GAS. When the classes line up so they're back ot back and it's just one trip it's fine. When it's not it gets to be a bit much.


I'm lucky that my primary obedience and nosework facility is less than 10 min from my house. So easy! Agility is 50 minutes, but at least it's almost all highway driving and my car is efficient.


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## jade5280

The average for a 6/7 week class here is between $150-$160 as well


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I'm lucky that my primary obedience and nosework facility is less than 10 min from my house. So easy! Agility is 50 minutes, but at least it's almost all highway driving and my car is efficient.


I'd LOVE to be closer to it - we're in the boonies, they're in the boonies and the other place is in the boonies the OTHER way (lol), but it's enough to slow me down without stopping me so it probably works out all right. I don't know what I'm going to do when I've done all the classes they offer there. Shuffle everyone around and see how many classes I can get them all through, probably.

I need to think about whether or not I want to do flyball at all, actually. I HATE the damage it does to dogs front legs and my interest is minimal but the introductory course has a LOT of drive building stuff included and is only three weeks, so... maybe?

Also this:


jade5280 said:


> The average for a 6/7 week class here is between $150-$160 as well


Compensates for a lot for me. ALL the classes here are basically 10.00 a course hour, and almost all the classes are 7 weeks. So it works out to about 35.00/month per class. Which is basically... nothing, really. Little over a dollar a day? Except the weave agility class, which is 75.00 for a 7 week course and they give you weave poles to take home.


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> I could totally do 5 classes a week, but my husband might kill me for spending that much money. Most 6 week classes here are ~$170 so 5 at a time would be a lot of money (says the girl who is in 3 Fenzi classes next term)


6 week classes here are anywhere from $175-$200+. The only exception is the Humane Society, which gives a discount for dogs that were adopted from there, so Snowball and I would be paying $120.


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## jade5280

CptJack said:


> Mostly I just really, really am looking forward to things starting. Dog classes are my primary social outlet and chance to get out of the house and do something for ME. The gap between classes is making me jittery.


I have the best time going anywhere and doing anything with my dog. A lot of the times I make excuses to my friends who want to hang out so I can go somewhere with my dog. Social fail.


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> 6 week classes here are anywhere from $175-$200+. The only exception is the Humane Society, which gives a discount for dogs that were adopted from there, so Snowball and I would be paying $120.


With the conversion rate, that's more or less what I'm paying. 

I have done a few that were more than $170 per 6 weeks, but not many. My obedience class was $165 for 10 weeks, which was a bargain.


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## dagwall

I'm still really happy I finished my nosework foundation classes before they decided to bump the prices up. I think I paid $185 per 6 weeks, it's $215 for the same 6 week classes now. Though I'm currently spending $135 for a 6 travel nosework class punch card. I go to one travel class just about every week, I have gone to two a week a few times as well.


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## SDRRanger

My agility centre is only 5 minutes away so gas isn't so much of an issue. The previous ones were 20 and 45 minutes away. 

Right now we're only in one class, but I would be quite content with a couple a week. I keep checking out different places and different sports to see if we can sneak another one in. Ranger is the only thing I spend money on right now so the BF doesn't particularly care so I'm hoping to capitalize on it


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## Kyllobernese

I am lucky that the Obedience Group I got into is only $100.00 a year to join the club. Right now we are training two or three times a week. They will start to set up the Agility equipment once the weather gets warmer to practice over also. In a couple of weeks they are starting Obedience and Agility classes once a week as it seems the Agility Club that I was training with before has not been doing anything lately.


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## packetsmom

SO...goals for this summer! 

Get Sam as far as I can toward his BH. It will depend a lot on his reactivity and behavior whether or not we trial this year or wait until next year, but I plan on training as if we are going to trial at the end of the summer. We'll still do tracking, because he loves it and protection to work on his confidence, but the focus will be on obedience.

I found a reactive dog class at our local agility training club, which is all positive reinforcement and plan on signing up so that I can get a different perspective on his behavior AND some additional tools to work on it.  This is a club that everyone raves about and they also have agility and nosework classes there as well as obedience, so if we like it, we could also work those in later on for fun. I like the reputation of the facility as well as the class description and the fact that the class size is limited to 4 dog/handler pairs. The cost is $185, but we can swing it.

Beyond that, I'm planning on getting Sam a backpack and he'll be going camping and fishing quite a bit this summer, hopefully with some fresh salmon to eat. (We don't have the parasites you have to worry about elsewhere.)  I think it's going to be a fun summer!


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## CptJack

So. I've had to withdraw Thud from his class due to a scheduling conflict that can't be helped (with my husband's job). That means we're on our own until June 16. I'm either a masochist or an idiot, but I'm keeping Thud signed up for the foundations of agility class. It should sere about the same purposes, but I want to whine. 

I LIKE DOG CLASSES.


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## jade5280

packetsmom said:


> I found a reactive dog class at our local agility training club, which is all positive reinforcement and plan on signing up so that I can get a different perspective on his behavior AND some additional tools to work on it.
> 
> Beyond that, I'm planning on getting Sam a backpack and he'll be going camping and fishing quite a bit this summer, hopefully with some fresh salmon to eat. (We don't have the parasites you have to worry about elsewhere.)  I think it's going to be a fun summer!


 That's great that you found a class! I want to get Ryker a backpack too. I love hiking, can't wait for this summer either.


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## jade5280

CptJack said:


> So. I've had to withdraw Thud from his class due to a scheduling conflict that can't be helped (with my husband's job). That means we're on our own until June 16. I'm either a masochist or an idiot, but I'm keeping Thud signed up for the foundations of agility class. It should sere about the same purposes, but I want to whine.
> 
> I LIKE DOG CLASSES.


Aw that's too bad. June seems to far away. Thud will probably like agility more anyways.


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## CptJack

jade5280 said:


> Aw that's too bad. June seems to far away. Thud will probably like agility more anyways.


It feels like forever, but at least kylie's classes will keep us busy until then. Well, keep me in classes. Thud and I will keep each other busy anyway and will still be working on most of this stuff.


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## jade5280

Well yesterday's obedience class was awful. Ryker started out quiet and calm but once people/dogs started moving around he just barked and pulled towards them all class. He didn't care at all about the liver treats I had. Nothing I did could distract him from the other dogs. I wasn't able to hear half the lesson between him barking and me trying to get his attention. When I was able to get his attention he would do what I asked and then out of frustration jump at me and bite me. He is like Jekyll and Hyde, a totally different dog in class than at home. I was thinking about dropping the class because I felt so defeated. I even gave him rescue remedy before class and we took an hour long walk. I feel a little better today, maybe if I bring cooked steak or something he will pay attention to me. I'm going to have to do hours of hard exercise before class next week until he is at the point of exhaustion. Not sure what else to do.

I think after this class is over I'm going to hold off on taking him to anymore classes until he has grown and matured more. Do you thinking putting him in daycare maybe once a week would help? He gets so stressed out not being able to be near and play with other dogs when they are right in front of him.


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## elrohwen

How far away from the other dogs can you get? Sounds like he's over threshold and you might have more success if you can stand really far away where they're not so distracting (even behind a barrier). 

I'm not sure how I feel about daycare. My dog in intact so he can't go anyway, but if he was neutered I'm not sure what I would choose. For dogs like Ryker and Watson who are so obsessed with other dogs, I wonder if it makes things better or worse for them to have 100% access to playing. It might get that need out of their system, or it might make them more dog obsessed and less interested in listening to you. Sometimes I've noticed that Watson becomes less obsessed with other dogs if he's allowed to meet them once, but other times he just gets frustrated that he was allowed to meet and not continue playing so ... I dunno. It's something that I've thought about a lot and I haven't come up with any answers.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> How far away from the other dogs can you get? Sounds like he's over threshold and you might have more success if you can stand really far away where they're not so distracting (even behind a barrier).
> 
> I'm not sure how I feel about daycare. My dog in intact so he can't go anyway, but if he was neutered I'm not sure what I would choose. For dogs like Ryker and Watson who are so obsessed with other dogs, I wonder if it makes things better or worse for them to have 100% access to playing. It might get that need out of their system, or it might make them more dog obsessed and less interested in listening to you.


We are in a large room so most of the time we are in the far corner about 15-20ft away so we aren't super close. I've been thinking the same thing about daycare. We have play dates with other dogs about once a week/2 weeks and he is fine with them and plays although they always tire out before he does. They are always the same 4 dogs though. We can't really meet new dogs on a regular basis. No real dog parks and I can't just walk him up to strange dogs. I worry that if he was in daycare that he would be too obnoxious for older dogs and I don't want to subject them to that either lol.

Do you know if neutering is supposed to help with this kind of obnoxious behavior? I'm still going to wait until he is older but it would be nice if he could just CHILL OUT haha.


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## Kyllobernese

I think that dogs have to learn that every dog is not a playmate and classes do help but it does take a while. I have been going to an Obedience group two or three times (sometimes more) every week since the beginning of Feb. and Kris has finally settled down and does not bark and lunge at every strange dog. She is still not 100% but we are getting there. You have to be far enough away that you still have their attention as once they do it, it is too late. I spent a lot of time just sitting with her while the other dogs worked and giving her treats when she sat quietly. It is a fantastic group as even though there is not an instructor and the dogs are all at different levels, we help each other. There is a regular Obedience class starting on the 24th so I will put Kris in it just to work on her ability to be calm around strange dogs and learn there is a time and place for playing.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Do you know if neutering is supposed to help with this kind of obnoxious behavior? I'm still going to wait until he is older but it would be nice if he could just CHILL OUT haha.


I've heard various things, but the consensus I'm starting to get is that being intact is a part of the problem. It's definitely one of the reasons Watson is so so dog obsessed. Sure, part is just wanting to play which is a personality thing, but as he's gotten older (around 15 months) part of it is wanting to sniff the other dog, sniff where the dog has been sitting, sniff where the dog has walked, etc etc in a way that is clearly hormonal. Neutering him wouldn't fix all of our problems, but I can see how it would help in other areas. These past two weeks he's been uninterested in nosework because he's sniffing the foot prints of the other dogs - I'm 99% sure now that it's some hormonal thing related to spring time and being a teenager. The other intact males in our class don't act like that, so I think (hope) it's something they eventually grow out of with time and work.

Someone online called intact males "distract-a-balls" which I thought was hilarious. Apparently distracted intact males (especially the teenage ones) are common.


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## jade5280

Kyllobernese said:


> I think that dogs have to learn that every dog is not a playmate and classes do help but it does take a while. I have been going to an Obedience group two or three times (sometimes more) every week since the beginning of Feb. and Kris has finally settled down and does not bark and lunge at every strange dog. She is still not 100% but we are getting there. You have to be far enough away that you still have their attention as once they do it, it is too late. I spent a lot of time just sitting with her while the other dogs worked and giving her treats when she sat quietly. It is a fantastic group as even though there is not an instructor and the dogs are all at different levels, we help each other. There is a regular Obedience class starting on the 24th so I will put Kris in it just to work on her ability to be calm around strange dogs and learn there is a time and place for playing.


That class sounds great. Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a class like that around here. The classes are strictly once a week for an hour. Other than that very short period once a week, I don't know where else to bring him to train him to be calm in that kind of situation with lots of other dogs as a distraction.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> These past two weeks he's been uninterested in nosework because he's sniffing the foot prints of the other dogs - I'm 99% sure now that it's some hormonal thing related to spring time and being a teenager. The other intact males in our class don't act like that, so I think (hope) it's something they eventually grow out of with time and work.
> 
> Someone online called intact males "distract-a-balls" which I thought was hilarious. Apparently distracted intact males (especially the teenage ones) are common.


Oh my gosh! Good ol' distract-a-balls lol. I definitely know that neutering isn't going to be a cure-all and I have no expectations of it to drastically change him in any way other than him being ball-less. BUT it would be nice if it did calm him. I think I may hold off the nosework classes for a little while even though I would really love to do them. He's just such a turd right now.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Oh my gosh! Good ol' distract-a-balls lol. I definitely know that neutering isn't going to be a cure-all and I have no expectations of it to drastically change him in any way other than him being ball-less. BUT it would be nice if it did calm him. I think I may hold off the nosework classes for a little while even though I would really love to do them. He's just such a turd right now.


I will say that nosework is *fantastic* for dogs like this. There are no other dogs since they work one at a time with other dogs waiting in covered crates or cars (most classes ask you to avoid having your dogs even see each other on their way in and out of the facility). If he's even slightly interested in using his nose (which I'm assuming he's very interested in given his breed) he will pick it up quickly. Watson is a totally different dog in nosework (except for these last two weeks) and is actually more focused on it than the other (much more well trained) dogs. Our obedience instructor is taking the class with us and she has known Watson since he was very young, and even she was amazed at the change in him at nosework vs other classes. It's so fun to do with him because I feel like we're really a team, instead of being frustrated with each other all class. Plus, it's mostly about letting dogs do what they do, so it's low stress for the trainer.

And they really do try to make it an "obedience free zone" where it's all about letting the dogs work independently and figure it out on their own, vs taking direction from their trainers. Eventually they need to learn to read your body language while they're searching, but I found that came organically and having them focus on you too much is actually a bad thing.


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## jade5280

That sounds like nosework could work for us then. I assumed it would be like obedience where you just have a bunch of dogs next to eachother. I'll e-mail the nosework facility and ask for more details about it. I was really looking forward to taking the classes this summer so hopefully it works out.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> That sounds like nosework could work for us then. I assumed it would be like obedience where you just have a bunch of dogs next to eachother. I'll e-mail the nosework facility and ask for more details about it. I was really looking forward to taking the classes this summer so hopefully it works out.


Oh no, it's not like obedience classes at all. The founders specifically wanted it to work for reactive dogs who may not be able to compete in any other sports, so it's perfect for dogs distracted by other dogs (or freaked out by other dogs). At trials they keep dogs very far apart and classes run the same way. And it really is about teaching them to work it out on their own, so as a trainer there's a lot of sitting back and letting them work. Most days it's more about setting it up so they are successful than about actually training anything. I think he'd love it, and it would be a lot less stressful and frustrating for you.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> How far away from the other dogs can you get? Sounds like he's over threshold and you might have more success if you can stand really far away where they're not so distracting (even behind a barrier).
> 
> I'm not sure how I feel about daycare. My dog in intact so he can't go anyway, but if he was neutered I'm not sure what I would choose. For dogs like Ryker and Watson who are so obsessed with other dogs, I wonder if it makes things better or worse for them to have 100% access to playing. It might get that need out of their system, or it might make them more dog obsessed and less interested in listening to you. Sometimes I've noticed that Watson becomes less obsessed with other dogs if he's allowed to meet them once, but other times he just gets frustrated that he was allowed to meet and not continue playing so ... I dunno. It's something that I've thought about a lot and I haven't come up with any answers.


I think the effects of daycare totally depend on the dog and to some extent the structure of the daycare environment. Some dogs it will help get their ya-yas out and help them be calm in other situations. Others will just become more excited by other dogs and assume they get to play with "all the dogs". Some daycares have small structured play groups so the dogs are all out playing all day, some have a nap time mid day where all dogs are put away to rest for a bit (2 hours at my daycare), and others just let the dogs all go buck wild all day long. 

Jubel has never been dog obsessed really since I brought him home at about 2 years old so I can't really speak from personal experience about that. While he likes other dogs and plays he is much more interested in people. Half the time I check in on him though the webcam at daycare he's following the room attendant around not playing with other dogs. But it does accomplish my goal for taking him to daycare either way. He's awake most of the day and interacting, be it with dogs or people it doesn't really matter. It wears him out and is a good outlet for energy once a week.


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## Hector4

jade5280 said:


> Well yesterday's obedience class was awful. Ryker started out quiet and calm but once people/dogs started moving around he just barked and pulled towards them all class. He didn't care at all about the liver treats I had. Nothing I did could distract him from the other dogs. I wasn't able to hear half the lesson between him barking and me trying to get his attention.


The trainer told us to turn the dog away from whatever the dog is barking at when we were in class. It did help in our case.


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## packetsmom

Tracking is similar to nosework in some respects. It's also an "obedience free zone" in that you can do obedience up to the track, but from there on, it's up to the dog to figure things out. In trial, you even have to follow your dog if it goes off track. In training, the most we ever do is just stand still and refuse to move if the dog gets off track. It's interesting to see which dogs really take to it and have a passion for it and which dogs really have a tough time concentrating on the track and getting into it. It's Sam's favorite part of Schutzhund, so I've thought of trying him in nosework down the road as well. I'm betting he'd love that, too! 

We heard back from the training center that does the reactive rover class. They are concerned that I'll be frustrated that their methods take a long time to work because they only use positive methods. I'd like to get their perspective and figure out how to work than into what we have been taught at Schutzhund. I do notice that Sam seems to thrive whenever I concentrate more on positive methods, so it's always kind of a balancing act when it comes to Schutzhund since most of the traditional methods there are a bit less positive to downright aversive.

There is a class being held in Whitehorse, Canada, in June that I SO wish I could get us to...a positive reinforcement only Schutzhund seminar with a trainer from Fenzi. Too bad that's a 14 hour drive and pretty pricey.


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## elrohwen

packetsmom, I'm taking a tracking seminar at the end of April and I'm really excited! I also signed up for the Fenzi Academy's Tracking 101 class so I can do some work on my own. Based on how much he loves nosework I'm pretty sure Watson will take to it. I'm not sure if we'll get to the point of trialing in AKC though since the tracking club is an hour away, and apparently practices take up whole weekend days. We have enough other doggy activities that I'm not ready to give up a whole weekend day just to tracking, but it will be fun to see how much we can do at home.

If I were you, I'd definitely try the reactive dog class and see how you like it. I have seen quite a range in trainer response to reactive dogs, from popping with a prong, to very slow counter conditioning. I don't have a reactive dog so I'm not sure which ultimately work better, but I imagine anything that tries to build the dog's confidence will work better in the long run. In my experience with a fairly hard and stubborn dog, most aversives just turn into a power struggle between us, rather than actually teaching the dog anything. As one trainer mentioned, if Watson's not having fun, he's just not doing it. For that reason, they might work for things like counter surfing or lunging at the rabbits, but in training they don't make him want to actually work with me.


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## jade5280

Good news, our last obedience class went very well. The cooked steak did the trick to keep his attention! He didn't bark as much and only tried "attacking" me once lol. Bad news, separation anxiety is back. I'm not sure what triggered it after he was doing so well. I *think* he is getting better though because he hasn't chewed up the door in a couple weeks. Back to barking for about an hour and pooping on the floor.


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## CptJack

I think there may have been some kind of miracle, but I took Thud outside today to let him play with a low jump and agility tunnel, and so some basic training in our field, and....

He actually performed. He sat. He downed. He spun. He stayed (like he REALLY held a stay, better than even Kylie does). He recalled. He learned 'over' and 'target'. He got somewhat distracted by his nose a few times and it was only maybe a 20 minute training session but he did STUFF and he didn't try to leave ONCE.

Maybe he heard he was in danger of losing his class time to Bug. Or, you know, the fact that he's 18 months old this month means his brain's starting to kick in. Maybe.

I'm taking him out to TSC and Lowes this weekend so we can TRY to accomplish something in slightly more distracting environments, but. Good boy, Thud.










And he's still crap on leash.


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## jade5280

Yay for Thud! Any improvement is better than nothing! I feel you on the leash thing. Ryker sucks on leash. If they could only know that it's so much easier if they just walk WITH us instead of twisting and turning and pulling.


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## CptJack

jade5280 said:


> Yay for Thud! Any improvement is better than nothing! I feel you on the leash thing. Ryker sucks on leash. If they could only know that it's so much easier if they just walk WITH us instead of twisting and turning and pulling.


I am DYING on this leash thing. He will formally heel all day long. Off leash? Right beside me, and within a 2 foot radius. Leash? TRYING TO KILL US ALL. He is getting better, but things he won't twitch at off leash he wants to lunge after when he's on.


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## Flaming

CptJack said:


> I am DYING on this leash thing. He will formally heel all day long. Off leash? Right beside me, and within a 2 foot radius. Leash? TRYING TO KILL US ALL. He is getting better, but things he won't twitch at off leash he wants to lunge after when he's on.


OMG, They share a freekin brain. At this point, I'm just hoping that age will sort it out eventually.


----------



## CptJack

Flaming said:


> OMG, They share a freekin brain. At this point, I'm just hoping that age will sort it out eventually.


Ditto, man. _Ditto._

I may try a traffic lead at some point and see if that makes a difference, but this is the most bizarre brick wall I've ever run into with dog training. Because it makes NO SENSE TO ME.


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## pinksand

I read through this whole thread because it made me feel like I'm not so alone lol! Charlie was just like Ryker in obedience class!

It's tricky because sometimes Charlie is amazing and trots right on past other dogs or people while dogs bark at him from their yards. Kids always want to say hi to him and sometimes he'll sit when I tell him to and stay in a sit or lie down while the kids pet him. Other times he'll sit for a split second and then pop up and lick the kid in the face or bark at them playing because he really wants to play too but doesn't realize it scares them away. Sometimes he randomly decides to bark at people when we're walking. People have said, "look at that guard dog!" But really he's just impolitely trying to get them to say hi to him. Then the next time we go out for a walk he sits when people approach and doesn't try to jump all over them. I never know what to expect! 

One good thing I need to brag about is some progress in LLW. I've been using the freedom harness recently but was taking him out late last night and used a light up leash with his flat collar. The light in the leash shorted whenever he pulled so I was able to realize that he's pulling much much less! Most of the time the leash shorted because he had stopped to sniff and I wanted to keep going. There were a few times he pulled ahead but overall he walked very nicely with a loose leash. I was so proud of him  Now watch me go out tonight and he'll pull like a maniac!


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## Flaming

CptJack said:


> Ditto, man. _Ditto._
> 
> I may try a traffic lead at some point and see if that makes a difference, but this is the most bizarre brick wall I've ever run into with dog training. Because it makes NO SENSE TO ME.


That's all I've been using for months. a thick traffic lead


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## jade5280

pinksand said:


> One good thing I need to brag about is some progress in LLW. I've been using the freedom harness recently but was taking him out late last night and used a light up leash with his flat collar. The light in the leash shorted whenever he pulled so I was able to realize that he's pulling much much less! Most of the time the leash shorted because he had stopped to sniff and I wanted to keep going. There were a few times he pulled ahead but overall he walked very nicely with a loose leash. I was so proud of him  Now watch me go out tonight and he'll pull like a maniac!


 Congrats on the LLW! How old is Charlie now? Have you had him neutered?


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## pinksand

jade5280 said:


> Congrats on the LLW! How old is Charlie now? Have you had him neutered?


 He's 8 months old and was neutered super young (8ish weeks) by the rescue we got him from. We were out of town last night and my in laws watched him. It sounds like he was a spaz walking with them... I think he just knows we aren't going anywhere if he pulls with me, plus I load up on treats. He also knows who he can take full advantage of! Ugh he is also not quite over the nippy phase when he's riled up... so much to work on but we've made some progress I think.


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## CptJack

I am going to keep updating this thread once a week between now and 6-17, to keep me motivated.

This week we spent the week working on obedience basics in our yard. Nothing heavy, nothing hard. Sit, down, stay, come, watch-me, with some high-gives and spins in for good measure.

Today we started doing training walks - on a flat buckle collar, without either harness or prong - to work on leash skills and to practice those commands he's confident in, in new places with different distractions. The new things that are being added are 'get out' and 'place' (crawl between my legs and lie down). I will probably also introduce the concept of targeting and the tunnel to him between now and next Friday. Those things make up most of the things I want to work on for the next month or so, anyway. 

I need to get brutally honest with myself here and admit that a lot of Thud's issues are because I don't enjoy working with him as much as Kylie, so I don't work with him as much as he needs. I slack off, I let things slide, I avoid and I make excuses. Doing all the work doesn't mean I expect him to become perfect - I don't, he still is what he is - but I have got to kick myself in the butt and start doing it. That's part of why I'm so eager for formal classes to start. That is a kick in the butt. Meanwhile, this thread's going to have to be it for me.


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## jade5280

Congrats on the progress with Thud! 

Sunday was supposed to be our last day of obedience class. I was doing yardwork and Ryker was leashed up outside near me for about an hour or so. Well we go inside and he starts acting very strange. Rubbing his face on things, drooling, and laying down. It seemed like there was something bothering him in his ear or mouth. The SO tried looking in his mouth and Ryker closed his mouth really quickly and bit SO's finger. He didn't bite intentionally but he did make SO bleed. He wouldn't let us touch his ear or mouth. 

So I'm kinda freaking out and we go the the E-Vet. As soon as we get there his symptoms are gone. We have the vet see him anyways. The vet thinks he could have gotten a thorn or splinter in his mouth and that it came out on it's own. We watch him for the rest of the day to make sure he's okay. So long story short we missed the last class and I'm kind of disappointed and glad that it's over with at the same time lol. And I'm pretty sure Ryker was faking it so he wouldn't have to take the test haha.

We're going to be seeing a behaviorist next weekend for his separation anxiety so the nosework classes will have to be put on hold to give my wallet a freakin break!


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## CptJack

My goodness, sounds like you guys have had way more excitement than is fun. I hope things settle out for you soon, and the behaviorist is helpful!

Thud is, um. Blowing me away right now, to be honest. He's still an obnoxious and sometimes randomly wary/suspicious dork with not much attention span, but he's picking up new things really, really fast - like within a single session and maybe refresher. We're not working on anything hard, but he's coming along and leaps and and bounds.

And forget the freaking agility stuff (though I posted that in the class thread): 

HE IS RELIABLY SITTING AND WAITING FOR HIS LEASH AT THE DOOR, WITHOUT HAVING TO BE TOLD MUCH LESS TOLD MORE THAN ONCE. NO jumping, bouncing, scratching, spinning, whinging, barking, clawing. It's a really enthusiastic sit! But he's sitting and waiting for his leash to be attached without nonsense, reminders, or me having to try 15 times to get what I want so we can get out the door. That's way, way more exciting to me than his get outs


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## Melle

Could I join in? This is an awesome thread.

Nina and I are at one of those stages where some days she's the perfect dog, maturing beautifully at 19 months, and others I'm wondering how I came to the conclusion of her adoption  I love her very much but some moments are embarrassing. It's basically a matter of her excitement. Overenthusiastic about trying to go up people's lawns after squirrels while on walks. Overenthusiastic about meeting children. Overenthusiastic about trying to reach and meet other dogs. Meanwhile, the two dogs that are also 19 months, across the street from us, are heeling, lying down for kids, ignoring dogs, rahrahrah, and were shelter pups like her. Oh, Nina. She isn't obnoxious anymore, it's just one of those behaviors I'm ready to blot out.

We've been working on it by taking a fannypack full of treats and a clicker on walks to work on distraction training, coupled with LAT and BAT depending on the distraction, but whenever we're in more social environments on our walks, I find myself gazing into the future at what I hope will be a very calm and even more well-mannered Nina.


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## CptJack

Man, I'm starting to think there's something in the water.

Or, more likely, something about dogs about this age.

Either way, welcome to the madhouse.


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## Kyllobernese

I think I can finally see that Kris is growing up. She is almost 17 months old, will walk on a loose leash now with just a flat collar. I still put the prong collar on her sometimes if there are a lot of strange dogs around. She has quit leaping and barking wanting to play with everyone. We have two more weeks of the Obedience class I have her in plus I am training with the smaller group on Wednesdays and Saturdays. We also sometimes train on Sunday like we did today. She could get her CD degree once I get her stays a little more solid but I am not in a rush to compete. I do a little Agility with her just for a change (A frame, dog walk and tunnels plus a few low jumps and working on the teeter. She loves the table and runs and jumps on it and sits waiting for a treat). She has come a long way since I really buckled down and started training her consistently and often since the end of January.


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## CptJack

Kyllobernese said:


> She has come a long way since I really buckled down and started training her consistently and often since the end of January.


This is... about what I'm realizing. Some of it's maturity. A lot of it's that kick in the butt I talked about. Working with Thud is still EXHAUSTING for me because of his exuberance, but getting over myself and just doing it *is* paying off.

But, man, have I mentioned exhausting? And sometimes kind of painful?


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## Flaming

off leash walking at a near perfect heel on my right side for almost 5 km on a path as wide as a sidewalk. I think she's starting to get it...and watch I just jinxed myself and tomorrow night she'll be all over the place. 
But I think that's improvement.

also meeting 8 teens and not jumping on anyone when they were giving her love.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

I apparently need this thread. 

Oh my gawd am I fed up with LLW. I've been at it consistently since Kairi was 12 weeks old. It has improved enough for me to walk for maybe 2 minutes without her making me stop for her pulling. No amount of stopping and turning around has made her quit. We go out on a purpose walks with her treats and clicker, and yes she has gotten a lot better.. but it is such slow going. If she isn't pulling me because she wants to get ahead.. OHMYGAWDSQUIRRRRELBIIRRDDANOTHERDOG!!! I've worked with her so often below threshold, but it's like it resets after each training session. I've seriously considered a quicker fix.. but I'm trying to hang in there. 

My goal is to be able to walk for 5 minutes without her yanking me. My goodness am I trying, but I have this overconfident, stubborn Aussie who I love to bits anyway.


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## gingerkid

So, my goals originally were to work on Snowball's on-leash reactivity and the "rushing to greet other dogs" problem.

Well. Both of these have improved immensely in the past 3 months. Snowball has not rushed a single dog in the past month; he's been a total gentleman. Once I figured out that my actions were significantly affecting how he perceived other dogs, it made a HUGE difference. I no longer stop and watch approaching dogs, I just walk towards them calmly and Snowball follows until we're close enough that he can see the dog properly and then either trots up and greets it calmly or (rarely) ignores it. He's also now 100% fine being on-leash at the off-leash park, but I haven't quite figured out how to transfer that over to being fine on-leash NOT at the park.

My biggest problem with the on-leash reactivity is forgetting to take treats when we go on leash walks because he is doing so awesome. My voice alone is not enough to distract Snowball from other dogs while on leash, but if I have treats, they can walk literally right past us. A couple days ago we were walking down a trail (about 10 ft wide) and a lady came around the bend in the trail with her golden... I pulled Snowball to the side as far as possible and put him in a sit and gave him a few treats and he totally ignored the golden which was only about six feet away, even when it growled at him. Vocalizations from other dogs are a huge trigger for Snowball so that was an awesome victory!

I'm still trying to figure out what his deal is with balls at the park. He stole another one today, from an aussie... I thought he was barking at the other dogs to get the dogs to play, but each time he barked at the aussie, the aussie dropped the ball. The first few times Snowball ignored the ball and the aussie picked it back up, and then Snowball would bark, and the aussie would drop it again... the third time Snowball stole the ball and brought it back to the kid that had thrown it. When the kid picked it up, Snowball was super focused on the ball - he didn't care at all about the other dog (who was also waiting for the ball). The kid was using a Chuck-It; the only other time Snowball returned a stolen ball to someone, they were also using a Chuck-It.

We're also working on the barking, but I think that will be a life-long struggle.


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## GrinningDog

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I apparently need this thread.
> 
> Oh my gawd am I fed up with LLW. I've been at it consistently since Kairi was 12 weeks old. It has improved enough for me to walk for maybe 2 minutes without her making me stop for her pulling. No amount of stopping and turning around has made her quit. We go out on a purpose walks with her treats and clicker, and yes she has gotten a lot better.. but it is such slow going. If she isn't pulling me because she wants to get ahead.. OHMYGAWDSQUIRRRRELBIIRRDDANOTHERDOG!!! I've worked with her so often below threshold, but it's like it resets after each training session. I've seriously considered a quicker fix.. but I'm trying to hang in there.
> 
> My goal is to be able to walk for 5 minutes without her yanking me. My goodness am I trying, but I have this overconfident, stubborn Aussie who I love to bits anyway.


Hang in there! (Otherwise you'll end up with a 4.5-year-old dog who knows a bazillion tricks, is a perfect off leash dog, does agility, but can't walk on a darn leash. >.>) I gave up somewhere around the 20 months mark and put Gypsy on a prong or halti for walks, which we traded for off leash exercise wherever possible. Wish I had stuck with the training, but I was losing my mind. I totally commiserate.

I started from scratch with LLWing since moving to an apartment two weeks ago. It's been tough, especially because so many things about our new home are EXCITING! or SCARY!, which prompt Gypsy to pull. But I'm seeing progress. Gradually.


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## Melle

Today was.... *le gasp* magical??? :O

We spent a lot of time outside, and I armed myself with the clicker and fannypack of training bites, because I've sworn ever since the bitterly cold winter, that I WOULD jump back on her training and be consistent every. Single. Day. of spring, summer, and fall. I'm determined that this summer we shall not be looking at wild toddlers and other dogs with despair while out and about. And today was a pretty good taste of that. She actually saw two dogs, one maybe 10-15 meters away on our side of the street right before we crossed the road, and another was a young puppy and its owner who came out onto the sidewalk about 7 meters away. There was no staring, focusing, digging her heels in, pulling to meet them...nothing. She just looked at them and kept going. We didn't even have to cross the street.

It was so magical that it was bizarre. In addition to the fact that when she saw a squirrel, she actually looked at me instead of lunging, and that's a first. I'm stunned. Now she's taking a well deserved nap at the food of the bed while I document this in our training journal.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Hang in there! (Otherwise you'll end up with a 4.5-year-old dog who knows a bazillion tricks, is a perfect off leash dog, does agility, but can't walk on a darn leash. >.>) I gave up somewhere around the 20 months mark and put Gypsy on a prong or halti for walks, which we traded for off leash exercise wherever possible. Wish I had stuck with the training, but I was losing my mind. I totally commiserate.
> 
> I started from scratch with LLWing since moving to an apartment two weeks ago. It's been tough, especially because so many things about our new home are EXCITING! or SCARY!, which prompt Gypsy to pull. But I'm seeing progress. Gradually.


Oh Gypsy! It must be an Aussie thing. 

Progress is definitely there. We have come a long way, really. It just blows my mind how I can easily teach her most things in just a few quick sessions, but this is impossible. Hah. Smart dogs are funny that way.


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## CptJack

We took a walk int a totally random direction today. He did pretty good with loose leash walking (actually pulled very little and when he did I'd stop and he'd self correct) which was awesome. The negative is he was so distracted by OMG NEW STUFF that getting him to perform was pretty sketchy at times (there were points where he actually refused food). Still, massive improvement over the last couple of walks I've taken with him and this one was 95% through residential and commercial areas. And hey, he only ALMOST jumped in the fountain.


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## CptJack

I... don't even know if this is a brag or a rant, but I'm giving it a go.

Thud knows how to target. It's easy. Run to the lid, there will be a piece of food on it. This is REALLY FREAKING NOT HARD. He picked it up and did it fine last week. 

Husband and I go out to work on it today. He does it... twice correctly. Then he bypassed the lid, and tried to grab the bag of treats out of my husband's pocket. When that failed, he went, found a rock, and brought it to my husband in apparent attempt to trade. 

I... don't know what to do when he gets like this. All joking and jesting aside, I have no idea how to handle him when his entire focus becomes NOT doing what he's being asked to do.


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## Hector4

CptJack said:


> I... don't even know if this is a brag or a rant, but I'm giving it a go.
> 
> Thud knows how to target. It's easy. Run to the lid, there will be a piece of food on it. This is REALLY FREAKING NOT HARD. He picked it up and did it fine last week.
> 
> Husband and I go out to work on it today. He does it... twice correctly. Then he bypassed the lid, and tried to grab the bag of treats out of my husband's pocket. When that failed, he went, found a rock, and brought it to my husband in apparent attempt to trade.
> 
> I... don't know what to do when he gets like this. All joking and jesting aside, I have no idea how to handle him when his entire focus becomes NOT doing what he's being asked to do.


Sorry, but Thud is too cute. He's thinking outside the box. I can picture him thinking "okay, you give now?", "okay, now?", "okay...NOWWWW?" lol.


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## CptJack

Hector4 said:


> Sorry, but Thud is too cute. He's thinking outside the box. I can picture him thinking "okay, you give now?", "okay, now?", "okay...NOWWWW?" lol.


I honestly had a good laugh when I got inside and had time to stop throwing my metaphorical hands in the air.

If nothing else, he's creative.


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## SDRRanger

I have no idea what to do in that situation, but my guesses (which someone can hopefully shoot down or agree with...and provide reasons why so I can bank them). 

- stop training and bring him inside and put him away? Sort of 'if you don't want to do what I'm asking then you can just sit here and be bored'?

or

- assume he is bored since he showed you he could do it and now it's lost interest for the session? Ask him to do things only a couple times then do a quick something else to change his brain and then come back to it? 

or

.....


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## CptJack

I ended up bringing him in and crating him. I'll try switching to something else or giving him more frequent breaks next time. I don't doubt that he was a little brain fried after the training walk/new places this morning, and I *do* think in large part he's just bored. The balance I'm going to have to find is between boring him and ramping up too fast and frustrating him. Because he disengages in similar ways when he's frustrated. 

I love him, but he is not the easiest dog in the world to train.


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## gingerkid

CptJack said:


> I... don't even know if this is a brag or a rant, but I'm giving it a go.
> 
> Thud knows how to target. It's easy. Run to the lid, there will be a piece of food on it. This is REALLY FREAKING NOT HARD. He picked it up and did it fine last week.
> 
> Husband and I go out to work on it today. He does it... twice correctly. Then he bypassed the lid, and tried to grab the bag of treats out of my husband's pocket. When that failed, he went, found a rock, and brought it to my husband in apparent attempt to trade.
> 
> I... don't know what to do when he gets like this. All joking and jesting aside, I have no idea how to handle him when his entire focus becomes NOT doing what he's being asked to do.


Does he refuse to do EVERYTHING that you ask him to do, or just one thing that you're working on? Maybe two successful attempts is all he can handle in a row?


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## CptJack

gingerkid said:


> Does he refuse to do EVERYTHING that you ask him to do, or just one thing that you're working on? Maybe two successful attempts is all he can handle in a row?


Depends, and I'm not quite sure upon what. Maybe 'cumulative time you've asked me to use my brain today.'

Getting bored is certainly an issue with him, though he's usually good for more than 2 repetitions of something (especially something known). Sometimes I can change it up and work on something different and he'll re-engage. Sometimes, he is not going to do anything you ask, period and the end. What he IS going to do is try really hard to engage us in HIS game. He will pick up random objects and bring them to us (sticks, balls, leaves, today it was the rock). He'll pick them up and run a few feet away. He'll play bow. He'll run in circles around us. He'll flop on his back and ask for a belly rub. 

There are days, sometimes even in a row, where he'll have a perfectly normal series of super short training sessions and be distracted and doofy but workable. 

And then there are days like today. I'd say he needs more exercise if someone else was describing this but, lol, no.

I may start tracking though and see if this syncs up with days when he's had MORE exercise, though. There was that recent post and today he certainly got more than usual - both mentally and physically.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Proud to say that we had a really good day with LLW! Kairi only needed "reset" a few times. We also had two dogs on a walk behind us for a couple minutes, and she only stopped to look what was going on a few times instead of reacting in crazy excited pulling frenzy like she used to. We had a couple of bird incidents as well, but she only went to the end of the leash and came right back after I called her name. I also started to reward her for walking calmly, because she's always on the alert (which leads to her reactivity), which seems to be working as well. I'm so very proud of my girl.


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## jade5280

Since I've started running with Ryker his LLW has gotten much better. He still gets distracted by other dogs but it's much easier now to get him focused back on moving foward. Especially while running. I don't make him heel beside me, I let him run where he wants as long as he's not pulling. I don't think it would be fair to make him heel while running because that's just not the kind of dog that he is. It's pretty much in his blood to run ahead.

His recall has regressed to about 0 though so he's not allowed off leash anymore. He's not very food motivated so it can be frustrating trying to train him.

I've noticed that his separation anxiety seems to be lessening. We are still going to see the behaviorist tomorrow about it either way.

I knew that hounds were slow to mature, but I never really understood what that meant. I can definitely see it now. Ryker probably has the mind of a 5 month old "regular" dog now that he's 10 months. He also just went through his first brief fear period where he was scared of certain new things. I think this slow to mature thing also plays a factor in his SA.


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## jade5280

CptJack said:


> I ended up bringing him in and crating him. I'll try switching to something else or giving him more frequent breaks next time. I don't doubt that he was a little brain fried after the training walk/new places this morning, and I *do* think in large part he's just bored. The balance I'm going to have to find is between boring him and ramping up too fast and frustrating him. Because he disengages in similar ways when he's frustrated.
> 
> I love him, but he is not the easiest dog in the world to train.


Ryker is very similar. He will play along with what I ask until he's bored of me. He will then sit down and bark in my face until I give up. Hey you can't really blame them though! Training just isn't FUN to them!


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## CptJack

We took Thud to TSC and the park today (human park, with children). He did fine with both. Decent loose leash walking, decent behavior over all, willingly obeyed commands, and then at the park lay down and watched children play quietly for an hour. I mean, yeah, ears forward and interested and curious, but nothing even remotely like what we were dealing with earlier in the week. In fact, I'd say he was almost perfect. Even when some of those children playing were infants, screaming and in one case pre-teen and obnoxious by standing 6 feet away and asking over and over if Thud was going to attack him. 

I don't know. I'll take it where I can get it.


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## CptJack

And then we went to PetSmart today with him and an employee tried to pet him and he flinched, cowered and then hid behind us. 

I not only don't know, I'm completely bewildered.


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## jade5280

CptJack said:


> And then we went to PetSmart today with him and an employee tried to pet him and he flinched, cowered and then hid behind us.
> 
> I not only don't know, I'm completely bewildered.


Hmmm. Ryker loves people and will run up to complete strangers. BUT sometimes if someone walks up to him and tries to pet him he will back off and bark at them like he's scared. I'm not sure why he does this. After a minute of barking he will then be okay with them petting him.


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## CptJack

I honestly don't know. I've seen occasional fearful behavior from him but he actually was cowering downward and looking PETRIFIED. I've never seen that from him before, but it was pretty sad. 

And 5 minutes later he goosed a perfectly nice man in the dog toy aisle when we went by. But continued to flinch/skitter/cower when walking by people who were a little too direct in their approach.

**ETA:** Apparently there's a fear period around 18 months. That makes me feel a little better, actually.


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## CptJack

Today was pure gold. We managed a whole three mile walk with no pulling, no fear, no nothing. 

How? This thing. I took a regular 6 foot leash with me in case I needed it but I didn't. That was the lowest stress walk I have ever been on with Thud. And, yeah, it may have been a fluke but if nothing else I've got all the leverage physically.


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## aiw

So I'm still having trouble getting Pete to identify cues and I'd love some troubleshooting. 

At the beginning of the session he mostly just guesses and I click when he hits the right behaviour. I do this to avoid cue poisoning. Then he does a few reps and clicks/treats each time, when I'm sure he'll offer the behaviour I start pairing the cue. Here is where it gets tricky. He often offers the behaviour without the cue, so when he does I don't click/treat just use my non-reward marker. BUT usually the next thing he does is offer a *different* behaviour. I think he does this because at the beginning of the session that's what worked, switching up behaviours. I then can't give the cue again because when I try he often guesses wrong poisoning the cue and contributing to confusion.

How do I break this cycle? I need him to learn to offer a specific behaviour and only when I cue it, right now he's just guessing. I'm sure its a communication problem on my end because he has no trouble picking up new behaviours. Its just specifying which should be performed when.... :/


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## gingerkid

aiw said:


> So I'm still having trouble getting Pete to identify cues and I'd love some troubleshooting.
> 
> At the beginning of the session he mostly just guesses and I click when he hits the right behaviour. I do this to avoid cue poisoning. Then he does a few reps and clicks/treats each time, when I'm sure he'll offer the behaviour I start pairing the cue. Here is where it gets tricky. He often offers the behaviour without the cue, so when he does I don't click/treat just use my non-reward marker. BUT usually the next thing he does is offer a *different* behaviour. I think he does this because at the beginning of the session that's what worked, switching up behaviours. I then can't give the cue again because when I try he often guesses wrong poisoning the cue and contributing to confusion.
> 
> How do I break this cycle? I need him to learn to offer a specific behaviour and only when I cue it, right now he's just guessing. I'm sure its a communication problem on my end because he has no trouble picking up new behaviours. Its just specifying which should be performed when.... :/


Okay, I've never had success with this either because both Snowball and I are easily frustrated, so we usually take a break and then come back to it a few minutes later. But my instinct say to hold out after the cue until he does the desired behavior again?


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## elrohwen

Update for Watson!

We haven't had an obedience class in 6 months, and we haven't done any type of training class for about 3 weeks. The this past weekend we attended a 3 day beginning obedience seminar and he was fantastic. My goal for the class was to learn about focus and attention, but after the first hour he had zero issues with focus. Every time we were out on the floor he was focused on me and excited to work. His heeling was excellent. On the last day he was exhausted, but he put on his game face and gave me some beautiful figure 8's. He also did a great job of ignoring other dogs for the most part, and he was able to wait his turn standing 5ft away from other dogs without lunging. He was also crated next to a female in season and he didn't have an issue with it (I don't think he knew she was in season, so maybe she was too early).

For some exercises, like the retrieve, we were very much beginners, so I'd like to train more and take the workshop again next year as more advanced students. It's such a shame that I'm only with him 2 days a week now because of work - I don't think we're going to accomplish much.

We've also had a breakthrough in his jumping. I set up a fenced area in our field and made some jumps, and we've been practicing some of Susan Salo's exercises. At first I didn't think he would be able to focus outside in such a distracting area, but he's really into the game and loves working on jumps. I'm excited for the possibility of adding more agility equipment, and working on obedience out there too.

Maybe he's growing up? In the past month or so I've seen some surprising moments of maturity from him and a lot of work ethic.


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## elrohwen

aiw said:


> So I'm still having trouble getting Pete to identify cues and I'd love some troubleshooting.
> 
> At the beginning of the session he mostly just guesses and I click when he hits the right behaviour. I do this to avoid cue poisoning. Then he does a few reps and clicks/treats each time, when I'm sure he'll offer the behaviour I start pairing the cue. Here is where it gets tricky. He often offers the behaviour without the cue, so when he does I don't click/treat just use my non-reward marker. BUT usually the next thing he does is offer a *different* behaviour. I think he does this because at the beginning of the session that's what worked, switching up behaviours. I then can't give the cue again because when I try he often guesses wrong poisoning the cue and contributing to confusion.
> 
> How do I break this cycle? I need him to learn to offer a specific behaviour and only when I cue it, right now he's just guessing. I'm sure its a communication problem on my end because he has no trouble picking up new behaviours. Its just specifying which should be performed when.... :/


I would take a couple days and focus on one behavior. Don't let him cycle through what he knows either - lure him or something the first couple of times so that he does what you want. Make him successful so he's not guessing. Once he has one thing down over a few days, switch and work on a new behavior and get that down, then see if he can discriminate between them.

One issue I have with shaping is that silence comes to mean "that's wrong, so try everything you know" and dogs learn that guessing is a good thing. Guessing isn't necessarily bad, but it shouldn't be their go-to for every session either.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> I knew that hounds were slow to mature, but I never really understood what that meant. I can definitely see it now. Ryker probably has the mind of a 5 month old "regular" dog now that he's 10 months. He also just went through his first brief fear period where he was scared of certain new things. I think this slow to mature thing also plays a factor in his SA.


I have felt the same way about Watson. Everyone said they were slow to mature, *especially* the males, but I really didn't know or understand what that meant until I experienced it. He'll be 2 in a couple months and I'm just starting to see glimmers of maturity that other people see at 12-18 months. I think at 3 years he's going to be awesome, but it's been a long road.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Ryker is very similar. He will play along with what I ask until he's bored of me. He will then sit down and bark in my face until I give up. Hey you can't really blame them though! Training just isn't FUN to them!


Are you sure he's bored and not frustrated? I've found that when I train well, and train for success, Watson doesn't get bored at all. There are times he seems bored, but I've realized he just doesn't understand what I want and is tired of playing along in a game he doesn't get. When I train well there is no barking and no disengagement.

I think I spent too long trying to shape things, and just frustrating him. Now I try to structure training sessions so that he is successful 95% of the time whether I have to lure it or whatever. There are no silences or pauses and I don't ask him to think too hard when learning a new behavior. If he fails twice in a row, I change it up.

Just something to think about! Boredom is definitely a thing and young adolescents are famous for it, but I found a lot of what I attributed to boredom was really frustration.


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## CptJack

As a point of interest, I have figured out what my issue with Thud is. You can call it boredom or frustration, or neither or both.

When we do a lot of stuff in one day, I get tired. My energy drops and I'm asking for things slower. When I'm doing something new, I'm trying to slow it down for him, too. Doesn't work. At all.

He will work fast, he will work hard, he will pay attention and even have duration- AS LONG AS I DON'T SLOW DOWN. Everything has to be very energetic, upbeat, and rapid fire with him. This has been working for a couple of weeks now, and he's seriously learned 4 new tricks in 3 days. Reliably. But it's either balls to the wall from me, or to hell with me. So, that plus the training tab and we're getting somewhere. Still feels reallllly weird to be trying to train at that speed and off the wall energy, but at least something is happening. (And hey, we've got a nice spin, twirl, bow and play dead to show for it.)

Also switching his reward to a tennis ball seems to have helped. I know the dog loves fetch. I have no idea how it's taken me 18 months to... just throw the ball instead of trying to shove food in his face.


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## aiw

gingerkid said:


> Okay, I've never had success with this either because both Snowball and I are easily frustrated, so we usually take a break and then come back to it a few minutes later. But my instinct say to hold out after the cue until he does the desired behavior again?


Aren't I just teaching him a bad behaviour chain though? Maybe if I focus in on *one* behaviour I want until he's got it really nailed, then moving on to clicking for another.



elrohwen said:


> I would take a couple days and focus on one behavior. Don't let him cycle through what he knows either - lure him or something the first couple of times so that he does what you want. Make him successful so he's not guessing. Once he has one thing down over a few days, switch and work on a new behavior and get that down, then see if he can discriminate between them.


That's a good idea... But I think I'll need to be working on the scale of weeks instead of days. Pete is *so good* about adding a new behaviour to his repertoire, but pairing cue to behaviour seems to take forever! AGH!

Oh well. He's got the basics down at least so probably better not to stress us both out about the extras.

EDIT: Okay I've been mulling this over for the last couple days and I think I have a solution! During our most recent session I alternated the "new" behaviour (actually rather old but never reliably on cue) with 'sit' which he's got nailed backwards and forwards in his sleep. I think having to check in to get a cue keeps him focused on me and only using one other behaviour lowered the failure rate.

More importantly though, I'm going to put shaping on a cue! The real problem is as you say elrohwen, silence has come to mean 'guess'. He doesn't know when to throw it all against the wall and see what sticks and when to look for a cue. Not really his fault as I've never differentiated the two for him. Giving him a "figure it out" cue vs. a "watch me" should ease some confusion about whether he should go it alone or look to me for direction. Yay!


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## CptJack

I don't know if Thud is continuing to improve because of the changes I am making in how I train him and approach training him, or if he's just finally starting to mature. To tell the truth, I don't really care.

His leash walking is still questionable. Other things... 

It's like he FINALLY understands 'the game' and wants to play it with me. He's had some commands that he knows well for a while (sit, down, stay, recall, some 'cute' tricks for fun), but up until the past couple of weeks (and especially last few days) I haven't seen this kind of willingness to cooperate with me since he was 3 or 4 months old. It almost seems like he lost the idea that he can DO THINGS and GET THINGS HE WANTS, and just rediscovered it. It almost feels like working with a completely different dog - one that LIKES ME. 

I expect this all to go straight to heck again soon, but I like this. I like this a lot. I like this so much I want to cry with pure relief and happy.


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## jade5280

I like reading about everyone's progress and even failures lol.

Soo still dealing with Ryker's SA, but that's being worked on. I decided to wait a little while before we do another level of obedience class, but I still plan on nosework either late summer or early fall.

PROGRESS:
His mouthiness is almost 0 now. SO happy. I don't know how I survived that, seriously.
Still pulls on leash, but not as much.
We can walk past other dogs. He will pull towards them, but doesn't get obsessed.
I CAN ACTUALLY BATHE HIM without him screaming and clawing. He still doesn't like his nails clipped.
Cat chasing decreased by maybe 50%.
WOAH! (my cat has creepy eyes) 

He's going to be a year old in July. I can't believe it.


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## Remaru

I haven't posted on this thread before, just been reading along. I had a question though, CptJack, how is the training tab used? I feel sort of silly asking that but it looks interesting and I am sort of at desperation for Remus and his reactivity. He is so great if I could just get past his reaction to men in hats and other dogs. It isn't that he is agressive, off leash he loves everyone, but on leash he barks like crazy. It really limits what I can do with him. He has done awesome with squirrels, kids on bikes, scooters, cats, rabbits, pretty much all of the prey drive stuff. I just can't seem to get to a point where we are far enough away from the other dog for him to notice the other dog and not react. If he can see the other dog he reacts. I obviously need some other trick. I ordered anchovy paste in my quest for ever increasing high value food treats.


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## CptJack

The training tab is really just a 4" leash (or 6 or, or 8, I think, are the other lengths they're sold in). I think it works for Thud because he is close enough to be that he can't 'disconnect'. Also because he can't get any leverage to pull or lunge. The more leash he has, the more he seems to forget about me and what he's doing. Being 6 feet out in front of me, even if he's not pulling, he seems to stop thinking about me and just go. And on those rare occasions he decides to leap/lunge after something he really can't. I didn't expect much of it, to be honest, but was pleasantly surprised at how much difference its made in holding his focus and getting him to pay attention. 

And for < 10.00, figured it was worth trying.


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## Kyllobernese

Kris has been coming along great with her obedience. On Saturday, we went to the big field at the school for the first time. We each went through our heel on and off leash, stand for examination and recall. Kris did everything good until it came for the Sit stay and Down Stay. The other dogs in the class are more advanced so they go out of sight but I stay with Kris. She was good on the long Sit and stayed sitting for the three minutes. In the Long down, she lay there and watched the other people walk out of sight. All of a sudden she could not contain herself and leaped up and raced up the hill to see where they had gone, then turned and came back down and raced around the field a couple of times. I got hold of her and put her leash on but just held her till everyone came back. It was hard on her because a big open field to her means "lets race around as fast as I can" but she will get better.


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## Melle

She surprised me yesterday.

For the first time ever, she did not react to another dog that was across the street during our walk. She slowed down next to me and looked at it, but did not whine, pull, lunge, rush, nothing. Watched it keep going on its way. Awesome follow up after our jog in the morning - passed upward of 4 dogs separately and she didn't react.

Today, I also taught her the names of two toys and to differentiate between them in targeting in 20 minutes total. Huzzah!

Only downside: dad is passive-aggressive in his dislike of her. Which makes me anxious which makes her anxious and jumpy around him. Which led my mom to contact the SPCA about training calm behavior and disposition. That's not the bad part, it's just that she thinks I should have a different dog. But then my father asks why she should go, usually because he feels guilty for making snarky remarks and setting off my anxiety. Blah di dah, can't wait to move out.


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## Remaru

CptJack, thank you I have been looking at that since you mentioned it and couldn't figure out how to use it. I felt silly like I should know what it was for. LOL I think I may give it a try with Remus and Freyja. I'm going to try out Anchovy Paste with Remus, hoping the smell will be enough to get his attention but if I don't have to fumble with a longer leash it might help. 

So I have been working with Freyja and she is coming along well but we've hit a bit of a road block. She is soft, really soft. Her feelings are just so easily hurt it has gotten difficult to work on new behaviors with her. I had noticed it a bit in the early stages but with some luring we got through it, now she just shuts down and wanders away in the middle of training. I am constantly having to build her up by requesting a behavior I know she knows and we cannot work on anything else. She also will not stand up or even sit, she always wants to be laying down which makes working on anything that requires her to be upright very difficult. Lately even if I try to work with her just laying down she rolls to her side, shutting me out. I'm not harsh with her, I don't even use a no treat marker with her (I do with Remus sometimes when he gets over excited) it simply comes down to not giving her a treat every time she offers a behavior I don't ask for. For example I ask her to give paw and she barks instead so I ignore her, wait a moment and ask for her paw again. 7 out of 10 times she will either walk away from me or roll to her side and quit working. She wants to be correct every time or she just doesn't want to do it. I feel like I'm over humanizing her here (I swear it is like working with my oldest son, if it isn't easy and he can't be right every time he just won't try) but that is really what it has been like. 

I'm considering enrolling her in classes but I don't want a basic obedience class necessarily. She is only 6months old but I'm afraid we would both be bored working on sit, down, ect. She has those. It would be helpful to work on them in distracting situations I am sure but we don't need to spend 6weeks learning the basics, we need something a bit more. Unfortunately so many of the places around here want you to take a basics class before you do anything else. Dove starts her beginner obedience in about 2 weeks, I will be attending with my son so I will watch and see how it goes. This is the same instructor who taught Duke years ago. Sort of bittersweet.


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## Melle

Remaru said:


> CptJack, thank you I have been looking at that since you mentioned it and couldn't figure out how to use it. I felt silly like I should know what it was for. LOL I think I may give it a try with Remus and Freyja. I'm going to try out Anchovy Paste with Remus, hoping the smell will be enough to get his attention but if I don't have to fumble with a longer leash it might help.
> 
> So I have been working with Freyja and she is coming along well but we've hit a bit of a road block. She is soft, really soft. Her feelings are just so easily hurt it has gotten difficult to work on new behaviors with her. I had noticed it a bit in the early stages but with some luring we got through it, now she just shuts down and wanders away in the middle of training. I am constantly having to build her up by requesting a behavior I know she knows and we cannot work on anything else. She also will not stand up or even sit, she always wants to be laying down which makes working on anything that requires her to be upright very difficult. Lately even if I try to work with her just laying down she rolls to her side, shutting me out. I'm not harsh with her, I don't even use a no treat marker with her (I do with Remus sometimes when he gets over excited) it simply comes down to not giving her a treat every time she offers a behavior I don't ask for. For example I ask her to give paw and she barks instead so I ignore her, wait a moment and ask for her paw again. 7 out of 10 times she will either walk away from me or roll to her side and quit working. She wants to be correct every time or she just doesn't want to do it. I feel like I'm over humanizing her here (I swear it is like working with my oldest son, if it isn't easy and he can't be right every time he just won't try) but that is really what it has been like.
> 
> I'm considering enrolling her in classes but I don't want a basic obedience class necessarily. She is only 6months old but I'm afraid we would both be bored working on sit, down, ect. She has those. It would be helpful to work on them in distracting situations I am sure but we don't need to spend 6weeks learning the basics, we need something a bit more. Unfortunately so many of the places around here want you to take a basics class before you do anything else. Dove starts her beginner obedience in about 2 weeks, I will be attending with my son so I will watch and see how it goes. This is the same instructor who taught Duke years ago. Sort of bittersweet.


It caught my attention when you mentioned that a lot of the time she'd rather lie down or roll over than even sit, and it has me wondering if she could somehow be experiencing joint pain that may also be affecting her biddability? I've always read about circumstances like this when finding information on displaysia.


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## CptJack

I have two thoughts on this. One is with Melle - make sure she's not in pain.

The other is that I have a dog who is very like this -Jack.

My trainer always says you want to be getting the behavior 85-90% of the time before you name it/put a verbal to it. If that's luring, or capturing, or whatever. Don't even put a name to it, until she's consistently offering you that behavior. After that, put a name to it, but don't ask for it until you are danged near certain the dog understands, and reward heavily if it's something the dog doesn't like. Introducing new commands this way can be VERRRRRY slow because Jack'll shut down and leave rather than be challenged (he's soft, he shuts down easily, and he just plain doesn't enjoy learning), but it works. 

and when I say very slowly? I mean 'it took me 6 months to teach a down' slow. I rewarded for lowering himself, lowering himself a bit more, lowering his front end, lowering his backend at all, lowering his rear end more, then rewarding for all the way down, then getting him to do it consistently, then getting a name on it, then fading out the lure/hand signal, then just using the verbal. And I was rewarding TINY bits of progress. It's just what it took with him, to make sure he kept succeeding.


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## Remaru

I can certainly look into getting her checked out, I had planned to do it later before considering a future in any sport that required jumping or if she makes it as a PSD and I want to use her for counter balance. She has shown no signs of pain and her gait is good. She runs like a typical crazy puppy, no limping after. We do have wood floors which may contribute to her preference to laying vs sitting, I think she may feel more stable in a down. 

Most of the time I can tell she is just disengaging, she rolls her eyes or turns her entire head away from me. The rolling over seems to be her way of saying "I'm done now." I have been careful not to add a word to any behavior until she has it down at least 90% of the time. What we seem to be getting now is behaviors she had down, things like "down" which she has had since 12weeks, she won't always offer anymore even if we practice them daily. It almost has a feel of her wanting to direct the training and if she can't she just won't engage. She is 6months old and I know that can be a hard stage. Today for instance I wanted to work with her on targeting a post it on the floor. She knows "target" well so this was just building. I gave the cue and gesture for target but she targeted my leg instead. I ignored her so she barked. When I asked for "target" again she got up and moved away. She refused to come back for any more training. The other day I wanted to work on her down stay but she decided to offer target instead. When I wouldn't treat her for "target" she moped off. Usually she likes training and enjoys trying to figure out what I want, it is just lately she doesn't seem to want to work.


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## gingerkid

Well, its only taken 2 years of on-and-off trying to teach him, but Snowball's finally catching on to "Speak". He did it on cue 5 times in a row this morning.

And _so far_ he hasn't taken the being rewarded for barking as a cue to bark whenever he feels like it to get food. Unfortunately, I think this might be a dead end for trying to teach a "Quiet" command.... if I ask him to Speak, he only barks once and then stares at me. He'll bark again after 10-15 seconds *if he didn't get a reward right away* (like if it is in the middle of a chain), but its sill a singular bark. But I'm going to count my blessings with this one, since Snowball doesn't really need encouragement to bark randomly any more than he does.

ETA: So, literally right after I posted that, Snowball proceeded to be the barkiest he's been in months. OMG. It was constant. Like, every 2 minutes he was barking at something. :doh:
But then, this morning when we drove to the park, he didn't bark at a single dog while we were driving through the parking lot. And I know he saw some dogs, since he was looking out the window and there were lots of dogs around this morning. Hubby and I were joking that his bark tank was empty from last night.


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## jade5280

I want to revive this thread because some of us have new dogs and have made progress with our other dogs! I also don't want to start a new thread whenever I want to rant about my idiots.

So Ryker's SA is controlled. There is very little I have to complain about with him. He's really turning into a great dog and I'm excited to see him progress in the next year.

Gypsy has her issues with reactivity and the cat that I'm sure you already read about. We're having a trainer come to our house for an evaluation. I'm anxious to see how it goes. I'm trying not to get my hopes up because i know that it's going to be a lot of work and it's going to take time and she may not ever get to the point that I want her too.


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## CptJack

I'm glad you resurrected this.

We've mostly got a handle on Thud. He turns 2 next month and he's noticeably calmed down and become easier. Our leash walking issues have been fixed for a while, though we're still working on a regular 6' leash instead of a training tab. His recall and focus are better. He's more inclined to guard the house and people which isn't something I wanted, but it's easily managed all around. Crate him when we're gone or someone's going to come in, solid door at the top of the stairs so if someone knocks he can be put away and not be a risk to them. Out and about he just focuses on me and life's good. 

He's still more physical and exuberant/excitable than my ideal, but he's a good dog.

Molly... is going to be a work in progress with one particular set of behaviors and that comes down to 'chases things she should not chase'. We're working most consistently on cats, but cars, bikes, people on horseback, people jogging, etc, all present challenges. The only other things that we're working on besides specific commands is self-control and having any kind of frustration tolerance at all. Oh, and she's having some kind of unholy fear period right now, where random things that were fine yesterday are horrifying today.


Basically, most of my training with everyone not her are command related, and mostly just trick training. Everyone else seems to have gotten their stuff together and aren't too obnoxious just at the moment. 

What are other people working on? Also command/behavior wise?


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## CptJack

Wait, I forgot something. I am working on Kylie to respond to a release from a stay with some degree of energy and enthusiasm instead of just ambling away from it. Think I'm going to try teaching "GO" as it's own thing instead. For whatever reason staying kills her energy and that's a problem with agility.


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## Remaru

I think I am in a similar place with Remus as you are with Thud. He will be 2 in just a few weeks and I can see him really coming into his own and maturing. That is great, he is steady now and confident in a way he wasn't before, the crazy puppy is gone. However there are some things about him that I wasn't expecting, really wouldn't have looked for in a dog. Leash reactivity is still a struggle. I think for the most part we have it in hand, he can walk away if we are outside anyway, a closed environment is hard for him. I don't take him to places like pet stores because I will not be "that person" with the dog straining at the leash completely over threshold. Oddly he will walk nicely next to one of the kids even when another dog goes by but will react if hubby walks him, less reactive if I walk him. However if the kids are walking him he gets very protective. He is more gaurdy than I expected, not of the house or in the house really but in the yard and of the kids. I do not have a ton of people over though so it is hard to say for certain that the tendencies don't extend to strange people in the house, he is just typically friendly to people I invite in. He loves children and is particularly gentle and loving towards smaller kids. He has learned not to be so boisterous, at least with kids so that is something. I have come to accept and appreciate his temperament, so we are working together more smoothly. He is never going to be one of those dogs who does cute tricks for people and that is ok. 

Freyja is still a work in progress. Her sitting is going better, she seems more stable now that she is older (and she has been practicing sitting on Hobgoblin's mat which seems to help so I guess it was the floor plus her fluffy butt LOL). What seems to have improved her training the most was handing her over to my son, she will do almost anything for him. I would feel jealous but...meh... They are cute working together. She has her stubborn moments and her "oh I forget, what does 'down' mean?" moments but I would say she is doing great for an adolescent. As far as house manners she is excellent. 

Mostly I am focused on work with Hobgoblin. He is hitting adolescence hard and we are having a few issues. Nothing huge, some crate issues, wetting at night, and some general crazies. The big stuff we are working on is body awareness and self control. Hobgoblin is food motivated to an extreme, he loves his food so much that it is hard for him to concentrate on what I am asking him to do sometimes. I don't even use high value treats just normal kibbles so we spend a good bit of time working on focus on me to get the food. I would say at this point more than half of our sessions are focus/self control training.


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## jade5280

How the heck do I teach "down" to a dog that just doesn't get it? I taught Gypsy leave it, sit, stay, and come. I can't get her to lay down! I've tried luring her into a down while she's sitting, but she won't do it.


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## taquitos

jade5280 said:


> How the heck do I teach "down" to a dog that just doesn't get it? I taught Gypsy leave it, sit, stay, and come. I can't get her to lay down! I've tried luring her into a down while she's sitting, but she won't do it.


Capture it when she's offering the behavior on her own.

When she lies down on her own, click and make a big fuss and give her a treat


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## taquitos

I've been trying to build Meeko's tug and toy drive with his new flying discs... but we've been having a bit of trouble.

I've been trying to follow this:
http://www.clickerdogs.com/createamotivatingtoy.htm

but we're having issues :/ He tries to run away after trying to grab it from me once or twice instead of going bonkers. He kinda just gives up easily LOL


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## CptJack

Food Stuffable Toys. There are some discs on there. I've found that kind of thing super helpful with Kylie. It's weird because she's REALLY into toys and tug at home but outside home it's just not enough. Using things that I can both stuff full of food and throw and-or tug has helped, a ton and she'll now happily fetch anywhere. We're working on tug, now, and it's coming more slowly but coming along. 

Be aware though that those food tubes (not what you're looking just in case) are enormous. I just use a RX bottle with holes for the same purpose. Not sure how big most of those discs are but this one is probably about right.


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## CptJack

When I say Thud guards the house, I mean when someone unknown gets to the porch if he's downstairs, he hits the front door like a ton of bricks and roars. He's not good with strange people around the house. He'll shut up and put up when they're inside or we tell him to, but he's kind of horrifying if we don't catch him first. He's decent with people and dogs when we're outside, though still really... suspicious of them for quite a while. It's really hard to reconcile in my head because he's a big old goof ball with family. And I guess upon reflection, I am still working on some general behavioral type stuff with him, in as much as when I call him exuberant what I really mean is excessively physical in expressing himself. 

Overall, though, I mostly think I've just learned who he is and made peace with that. In many ways more adjustment and change on my end than his. There's a lesson in there, somewhere. 

Command wise, we're all over but since there's a lot of dogs it makes sense.

Jack's learning spin and paw. He's slow. That's enough for him. 

Bug is learning to backup and roll over. Still playing some agility games with her, with low jumps and a tunnel. Sending, coming in, a few different patterns, 2o2o position. It's fun and keeps her mind and body active and is good for her. I want to take the beginner class with her, but I don't know how that's going to work out. I could do it but it would mean either sidelining Kylie or taking 3 dogs to class a week and having 2 in the same class - without help. I don't like either option much. Guess we'll see.

Thud's learning to sit pretty, play patty cake, place - ie: lay down between my legs, and to close doors and turn off lights via targeting. Otherwise, body awareness with him. Paw targeting with all four paws, going up the stairs backwards, some balance and perch stuff.

Kylie is working on spread 'em, wave, body vaults (well, thigh- she's short), walking leg weaves (hard for her - she's afraid of being stepped on), and for agility switch and weaves. I'd LIKE to teach her cop-cop, but I can not get her to stand on my feet to save her life. That's going to be an ongoing thing. 

Molly is learning everything in the word right now. Heel, walking leg weaves, targeting, tunnel, get out, sending between jump uprights, cop-cop, backing up, 2o2o positions, wave, on and off (an object) and take it. 

I want a freestyle class. I LIKE trick training and music!

And some day I may, MAY, actually have dogs who have more overlap in their silly tricks than they have right now.


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## Remaru

Duke was like that, he did not tolerate people in his home or near his home especially men. If hubby or I made it clear that a person was not to be bothered he would be still and accept that person in his home but he didn't like it. It usually took many visits for him to get used to some one and some people he just never liked (he hated my father, hubby's brother, one of our friends, ect). He liked kids though, and he was fine with people outside of the house. He settled some as he aged, he understood the expectations better but I think we also just got better at managing him (plus we had fewer people over that were new). Remus is the opposite, he is gaurdy around the yard with the kids but mostly it is out of the house that he gets protective. He will bark when people come to the door but once they are inside he is very friendly. The barking is new, he didn't know how to bark until recently (not loving that he learned that one). Really it is just that he has come into his own as a dog, he isn't a puppy anymore I can see who he is. This is the mature him. I've also come to understand him better, what really motivates him and how he thinks/learns. I approached him early on more like a herder and wound up frustrated, now that I understand him better we work together better. I still think I would like to try disc dog or fly ball with him. Now that he jogs regularly I've discovered that pulling isn't really his thing so I don't think carting would work, too bad, it would have been fun. Agility may still be an option if I can get him past his reactivity a little more (he is very close and I am still weighing my options on neutering and if it would help).


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## CptJack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGODurRfVv4 This video spoke to me in so many ways. 

Thud's high energy and high drive but he's not a sports dog, and that's okay. He's still one heck of a good dog, and as he's growing into himself I am falling in love with him all over again. Or maybe falling in love with him for the first time. I stopped for a while there, just out of pure frustration.


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## CptJack

Okay, sappiness aside I have created a situation with Molly. 

I taught her to start leg weaving from a heel position. I am hoping to eventually reach a point where stepping off with my left cues heel and my right starts weaving. I'm also working on getting verbal connected to the weaving. In the meanwhile I have confused the SNOT out of my dog. 

Oh well. Live and learn?


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## Kyllobernese

Kris will be two in December and she is finally growing up. She is good doing Obedience but still a little reactive with other dogs when she is on leash if I am not paying enough attention. When she is off leash she never goes up to another dog when we are doing Obedience, just ignores them. 

I had to board her for the past three days, her first time. I boarded her at the Doggy Daycare so she is there all day, then a woman I know who owns the daycare, boards her overnight. It worked out great and I picked her back up today. She was so happy to be home again. I am hoping being able to play with other dogs will give her more confidence as she is not aggressive, just a little scared of other dogs but hard to tell people that when she is leaping at their dog with her mouth open.


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## gingerkid

jade5280 said:


> How the heck do I teach "down" to a dog that just doesn't get it? I taught Gypsy leave it, sit, stay, and come. I can't get her to lay down! I've tried luring her into a down while she's sitting, but she won't do it.


Are you trying to lure her all the way down right off the bat? Some dogs will do it, but I've found that a lot won't so you have to start by luring them down just a little bit at a time.

But if you've already tried that... yeah, capturing.

Our tricks class ends next week. We haven't really fully learned any tricks, and mostly just have about a dozen new ones to continue working on, but I am so so happy I took it, because I am finally able get Snowball to put his mouth on things that aren't food, and we're starting to build up "Tug" and "Take it" commands, which is exciting! I've also come to the conclusion that Snowball learns much better through shaping than through luring. It's almost like with luring, he knows if he follows the treat for long enough he'll eventually get it so he just doesn't bother thinking about it.


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## jade5280

CptJack said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGODurRfVv4 This video spoke to me in so many ways.
> 
> Thud's high energy and high drive but he's not a sports dog, and that's okay. He's still one heck of a good dog, and as he's growing into himself I am falling in love with him all over again. Or maybe falling in love with him for the first time. I stopped for a while there, just out of pure frustration.


 That made me tear up. What an awesome story!


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## jade5280

gingerkid said:


> Are you trying to lure her all the way down right off the bat? Some dogs will do it, but I've found that a lot won't so you have to start by luring them down just a little bit at a time.
> 
> But if you've already tried that... yeah, capturing.


 Yes I try to lure her all the way down, but she only goes about halfway. I'll try just doing a little bit at a time like you suggested and try to capture her in the act.


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## pinksand

jade5280 said:


> Yes I try to lure her all the way down, but she only goes about halfway. I'll try just doing a little bit at a time like you suggested and try to capture her in the act.


I remember several dogs having trouble with down in our obedience class and the instructor basically recommended what gingerkid said. They started treating for front legs being halfway into a down and slowly asking for more from them. 

I've had this same trouble with "bow." I've watched videos on how to lure into the position, but he'd just go into a down with only a millisecond in a bow pose so I couldn't click and treat in time. Then it was suggested to hold his belly up, but he was confused about what I was doing and got frustrated so that didn't work. I've started just clicking and saying "Good bow!" whenever he naturally bows in play. I don't know that this is working either lol. Maybe eventually he'll connect the word and action?!



CptJack said:


> Okay, sappiness aside I have created a situation with Molly.
> 
> I taught her to start leg weaving from a heel position. I am hoping to eventually reach a point where stepping off with my left cues heel and my right starts weaving. I'm also working on getting verbal connected to the weaving. In the meanwhile I have confused the SNOT out of my dog.
> 
> Oh well. Live and learn?


This is one I'm struggling with too. I can lure him to weave twice but something about leg weaving gets him crazy riled up! He does it really fast and gets all psychotic and jumps on me after the second weave. He gets so crazy that I have to stop working on it and transition him to some calmer commands. I'll try to go back to walking leg weaves but the second I say "weave" he gets crazy again. I don't know how to work on it without him getting over threshold.

Overall I think that Charlie has calmed down a lot... although this is all relative because I think he'll always be a high energy dog! He's super friendly, to the point of being overly friendly sometimes and we're still working on him not jumping up on people, although I've noticed some improvement in that area. However, every now and then he has met a new person that sets him off with this deep warning bark. It throws me off so much because 99% of the time he's super excited to meet new people and welcomes them into our house excitedly. I don't know what it is that sets him off with certain people, but eventually he ends up warming up and bringing his toys over to share with them. One thing I've noticed consistently is that some people who are nervous around dogs seem to make him bark more and set him on edge in return. I'm not sure exactly how to offset this. In general he's a very confident dog who loves to explore and experience new things, I can't name one thing he's afraid of, so it's just strange to see him react that way. I'm not entirely sure if it's a fearful reaction or if he's being protective. He doesn't back up, he stands his ground when he's barking... however he doesn't snarl or look too menacing either, just barks with this deep "wroo wroo wroo" bark. I guess I'm just not sure how worried I should be about the behavior. It's not a huge problem because it only happens once in a blue moon but it's always unexpected so it's hard to work on the behavior. I really just want to work on an off switch for the behavior. He barks the same way if someone comes in late at night, but as soon as we speak or he sees us his body goes all soft and wiggly and he stops barking. I don't mind him barking like that in those situations, because I like to be alerted when he hears someone come into our house late at night and he's never excessive about it, he'll stop immediately when he sees who it is. I just want him to stop like this in those odd circumstances when seeing the person doesn't shut him off.


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## ireth0

For down; do you have hard floors? I was having the hardest time luring Luna into a down in our house, and then SDRRanger tried it when we were at the park on grass and she lured perfectly. So we think it may have been the surface that she couldn't lower herself without sliding around, or wasn't comfortable doing it when she wasn't sure what was being asked.

We are working on;
Cats. Always working on the cats. I think we are at a point now where I should start regularly allowing them in the living room with Luna dragging a leash... but oh man that's a scary leap for me. With me taking care of the house on my own now it's harder because I don't have a lot of time to exclusively supervise, and then when I DO have time, there's no guarantee that the cats will feel like coming around right then because cats. It's always an ongoing saga, but we are seeing little moments of progress that make me smile and give me hope, lol.

Leash manners with distractions. I am still really sloppy with my rewarding for this, but I figure it'll just take practice. I feel like we go through hot dogs like CRAZY though. (I slice them, and then cut the slices into quarters) Luna has proved in practice sessions that she has the potential to get better, so it's just a matter of getting out there and doing it. (and me becoming more coordinated)

Nosework practice. Luna really gets the game now, which is exciting. I'm moving on to varying the formation of the boxes (from just a basic line to different patterns) to challenge her a bit more and introduce new concepts. Last time we practiced she was very deliberately checking each box which was very cool.

Hand Target or 'Touch'. I know, I know. Boring. But this is our current 'trick' we're working on. Luna seems to get the idea, so I'm adding in the word and varying up the position of my hand. I just don't find myself motivated to train many 'trick' type things. I find overall behaviour modification a lot more interesting. Yes, I know tricks are technically behaviours, and I train tricks to improve our bond and work her brain, but I prefer teaching something with a goal in mind, vs training 'just for fun' type stuff. Anyway...

We're also somewhat passively teaching Luna fetch, although she doesn't seem super motivated by it. 

We are FINALLY back to basic obedience classes next Sunday. Nosework class tonight.

In addition we've trained our local chickadees to take seeds from our hands in our backyard, so that's something?


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## CptJack

Thud was accidentally left loose this morning. I didn't notice until noon, when he came downstairs to find me at the computer and nudge my knee to get up and let him out to pee. This is HUGE. He didn't pester the other dogs, he didn't start crap with the cats, he didn't get into the trash, he didn't bark or slam into things and he wasn't even separated from anyone. He literally spent the whole morning doing who knows what quietly, and only came to 'bother' me when he needed to use the bathroom. There is definite maturity happening, and I like it.

Molly really, really wants to be allowed to sleep outside her crate - but not with anyone. I don't trust her. If she'd sleep in the bed with somebody, sure, but I don't like the idea of her being loose in a room yet, and she prefers sleeping on the floor. Maybe in another month or two I'll give it a try. 

The leg weave thing isn't horrible. We can get probably 100 feet at a time before I stop and jack pot reward with only occasional reminders of which way to go through via pointed finger now. She just... likes to offer the behavior a lot, I think, and doesn't like to wait and see what we're actually doing before she starts trying. Someday I'm going to fall on my face, but I think we'll be able to get it cleared up with consistent verbals and physical cues. i just have to keep it really consistent.


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## elrohwen

Watson is getting better at focusing on me outside. The key has been restricting his freedom a ton, and requiring that if he wants to walk anywhere at all, he walk right next to me without pulling. I think I was afraid doing that would create boredom or resentment, but it's actually made our bond stronger I think. At least he's actually interested in what I'm doing and offers to work with me, instead of just doing his own thing. And he still gets time to run around like an idiot, just usually with someone else at the end of the leash.

A side effect of that is that he will heel outside. Yay! We've worked a lot on heeling indoors, but I really wasn't sure how I would ever get the same engagement outside. Watson is not the type of dog to be semi-engaged either. He can't really heel along next to me casually, occasionally looking around or loosing focus. If he's not 100% engaged and focused I'm going to lose him entirely. He's been much more excited about heeling and we can work for 10min at a time outside without him tiring or losing focus. Still very short sections, maybe 10-15 steps at most, before a reward, but we're getting there. 

Sadly, we didn't meet my goal of a NW1 title last weekend. He did fantastic for the first two searches, really good on the third, and utterly failed the last. When we got to vehicles he wasn't interested even a little bit. The wind was blowing 20mph and it was the end of a long day (we were 37th to go in the afternoon) and he just spaced out. I got him to sniff a bit, and he gave a very strong alert that was completely wrong. Oh well. Last trial I did a lot of things wrong, but this trial I felt like I did a good job overall, and he was well prepared, but he just doesn't have the mental stamina or maturity to work and focus at the end of a 6 hour trial. I really don't know how to prepare for that, but we can try again in 6 months and see. Hopefully next time luck will be on our side with the weather and timing (and vehicles won't be last). A woman who also volunteered at the last trial came up to me afterwards and said how much better we both looked this time, so that was good to hear. He really worked up to his usual potential in the first couple searches.

Also, I still don't get why they make vehicles so hard. All of the other searches are consistently pretty easy at NW1, but both trials I've been to had 3 massive vehicles for the vehicle search. The rules just say "up to 3", so I find it weird that they are consistently picking 3 really large trucks. It seems disproportionally difficult compared to the others, especially because vehicles are probably the hardest element for most dogs.


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## jade5280

SO said he held the cat about a foot away from Gypsy today and Gypsy did not bark. I would have told him not to do this if I was home, but it does give me a glimmer of hope that some day they can co exist.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Also, I still don't get why they make vehicles so hard. All of the other searches are consistently pretty easy at NW1, but both trials I've been to had 3 massive vehicles for the vehicle search. The rules just say "up to 3", so I find it weird that they are consistently picking 3 really large trucks. It seems disproportionally difficult compared to the others, especially because vehicles are probably the hardest element for most dogs.


Actually in my experience and my instructors experiences vehicles are usually one of the easier elements for most dogs. They see vehicles and the automatically go into search mode. We actually have issues sometimes in our travel classes if there are vehicles in or near a search area but not part of the search. The dogs will head straight to the vehicle to start searching it. Couple weeks ago for an exterior search the hide was in a crack in the sidewalk next to the parking lot. Jubel caught the scent from a distance and raced right past it to the car parked 5 feet away. He assumed it was coming off the car because "duh, vehicles are for searching." 

Did you guys do a lot of vehicle searches in classes? We did a decent amount and vehicles are one of the easier elements for most of the dogs who went through my trainers. If Watson doesn't associate vehicles with nosework I'd suggest doing more vehicle searches as part of your training. 

Though I will say we had vehicles last on our NW1 trial and Jubel was a bit spent by the end of the day too. We came close to using most of our time before I got him focused on searching and found the hide. He was much more interested in the picnic tables off behind the vehicles, and area that was used for exterior searches the day before I'm told.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Actually in my experience and my instructors experiences vehicles are usually one of the easier elements for most dogs. They see vehicles and the automatically go into search mode. We actually have issues sometimes in our travel classes if there are vehicles in or near a search area but not part of the search. The dogs will head straight to the vehicle to start searching it. Couple weeks ago for an exterior search the hide was in a crack in the sidewalk next to the parking lot. Jubel caught the scent from a distance and raced right past it to the car parked 5 feet away. He assumed it was coming off the car because "duh, vehicles are for searching."
> 
> Did you guys do a lot of vehicle searches in classes? We did a decent amount and vehicles are one of the easier elements for most of the dogs who went through my trainers. If Watson doesn't associate vehicles with nosework I'd suggest doing more vehicle searches as part of your training.
> 
> Though I will say we had vehicles last on our NW1 trial and Jubel was a bit spent by the end of the day too. We came close to using most of our time before I got him focused on searching and found the hide. He was much more interested in the picnic tables off behind the vehicles, and area that was used for exterior searches the day before I'm told.


Interesting! In both trials I know that a lot of people failed the vehicle search, but I didn't ask everyone so that's not scientific or anything. It was definitely not unusual though so I got the impression that others struggled with the vehicles. Or that the vehicle searches in both trials were especially difficult.

We didn't do nearly enough vehicles in classes, though I have tried to make it up at home. He is fantastic when we do them at home for the most part, but I don't have giant trucks and SUVs to line up so it's not the same search area. Searching a Civic is very different from an Expedition, at least to him. He also struggles with staying on the vehicle sometimes if there is grass around (which wasn't a factor at this trial). So part of it is that he just hasn't done as many vehicle searches as everything else, but then I would say he's done as many vehicles as exterior searches and he has never struggled with exteriors.

His problem at the last trial wasn't lack of associating cars with nosework, it was just going brain dead and sniffing into the strong wind. lol He always recognizes vehicles as search objects, though he is more easily distracted from the task than in other searches - he sometimes wants to leave the vehicle to search the area around it.

The biggest problem is that he starts false alerting when he's really tired and brain dead. He did it at the last trial too. I don't really know what to do about it since he has never ever given a false alert in class or practices. And by the time he's doing it, it's a sign he really can't think any more and wants to stop, so to me that says once he's at that point, training is done anyway. They love to say "trust your dog", but I'm thinking "I know how to read him and I know he's not trust worthy right now!" Haha. Now it's going to psych me out at trials because I can't fully trust him in the afternoon searches. Not sure if we'll try again anyway at this point. I'm getting tired of sitting there for 8 hours just to search for 2 minutes.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Still struggling with leash manners sometimes. We are doing great up until a squirrel walks by. She is on serious squirrel patrol the entire walk which makes her forget her leash manners. I got her a harness because I was afraid of her injuring her neck when she went batcrap crazy over these things. She can't even see one through a window or door without going nuts. She ignores high value treats from any distance and inside as well. It's kind of rough.. so I've just been managing it until I can talk to a trainer. 

Other than that, we are learning to walk around me backwards. I realized I don't teach her a lot of tricks. We mostly just work on body awareness exercises and stuff for agility. Our dog reactivity is almost 100% gone on walks and mostly gone in a highly dog populated building as long as nobody is running. I'm very thrilled with Kairi's behavior with other dogs in general though. Dogs have growled at her, humped her, snapped at her and she just wiggles her little butt at them just because she's happy to see them. I've never had a dog friendly dog in my life. Ha.


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## CptJack

Control Unleashed: The Puppy Program is something I'm planning to start with Molly in early November. She's an amazingly good puppy but she's also getting pretty freaking reactive (Well, more reactive). Even if she wasn't, it should be good for her. I'd start it sooner but I've got a crazy rest of this month, so I'll drag it out probably somewhere in that first week of next month. I meant to do this with Thud and probably still will, but just never got it together. Since I have nothing formal planned until the middle of January, the timing this time is really good.

In other news, we're making progress in heel/weave confusion. I have this problem with her while I wait too long to introduce verbals and it slows both of us down. Not used to a dog who picks up WORDS as fast as she does. Some of them without even trying. Mostly great, but it's a mental adjustment.


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## CptJack

I've spent the past few days kind of experimenting with Molly - dragging her out to places like TSC, the vet's office and, most importantly, a crazy busy park filled with running and screaming children. 

I don't think I have quite as big a problem as I thought I did, in that she can settle, focus, and pay attention and work around most distractions fairly well. What she can't do is not lose her ever loving mind in the presence of other running dogs. 

Agility class is going to be fuuuuun.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack said:


> I've spent the past few days kind of experimenting with Molly - dragging her out to places like TSC, the vet's office and, most importantly, a crazy busy park filled with running and screaming children.
> 
> I don't think I have quite as big a problem as I thought I did, in that she can settle, focus, and pay attention and work around most distractions fairly well. *What she can't do is not lose her ever loving mind in the presence of other running dogs. *
> 
> *Agility class is going to be fuuuuun.*


Yeah.. I had the exact same problem. Kairi would SCREAM at the off leash dogs running their obstacles. It was an enormous pain in the butt. She still does a bit, but it's gotten insanely better. There's hope for Molly, of course!

Molly and Kairi sound very similar in a lot of ways.


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## CptJack

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Yeah.. I had the exact same problem. Kairi would SCREAM at the off leash dogs running their obstacles. It was an enormous pain in the butt. She still does a bit, but it's gotten insanely better. There's hope for Molly, of course!
> 
> Molly and Kairi sound very similar in a lot of ways.


I'm fairly lucky in as much as I have handy access to running dogs at home before upping the ante and level of distraction with a new environment, and I think we'll eventually be able to get her attention where it needs to be, but it's going to be a process.

And yeah, they really do sound a lot alike.


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## Kyllobernese

Took Kris to her usual Thursday night Obedience class and she was 100% better with all the dogs. She never once jumped or barked at the other dogs so I think the three days at Doggy Daycare really helped her to realize other dogs are not out to "get her". They said she was fine playing with the other dogs and they really liked her.


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## CptJack

So, we're going to a flyball tournament with Molly weekend after next. This is possibly the DUMBEST thing I've ever even thought about doing, but I'm taking Molly. She's not afraid of other dogs, just over-aroused and we can always leave if she doesn't handle it well. 

More intelligently, I'm renting the training facility/agility barn where classes are three or four times in December and early January. I don't know if it will actually help much, but if she's used to going into that space to work I figure it can't hurt and may help.


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## ireth0

Had a somewhat frustrating obedience class yesterday. Just a bunch of little things added up and Luna wasn't behaving the way I know she can, probably due to the lack of exercise since it's been raining all week.

I went in feeling relatively happy with where we were and what we were working on and came out feeling like there are so many things I need to fix/work on.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Had a somewhat frustrating obedience class yesterday. Just a bunch of little things added up and Luna wasn't behaving the way I know she can, probably due to the lack of exercise since it's been raining all week.
> 
> I went in feeling relatively happy with where we were and what we were working on and came out feeling like there are so many things I need to fix/work on.


Sorry things didn't go well with Luna. :-( I can't even tell you how many times I drove home from training classes in tears. It doesn't necessarily get easier, but you learn to work through it as a normal part of training. There will be setbacks, there will be nights that your dog is a lunatic and a total embarassment (and times you will be a total embarassment), but it's all part of learning. At this point I just keep my expectations really low and am thrilled whenever it's not total chaos. Haha. There will always be new things to learn and work on, and the further you progress the more new things you'll find to work on. That's part of the fun


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Sorry things didn't go well with Luna. :-( I can't even tell you how many times I drove home from training classes in tears. It doesn't necessarily get easier, but you learn to work through it as a normal part of training. There will be setbacks, there will be nights that your dog is a lunatic and a total embarassment (and times you will be a total embarassment), but it's all part of learning. At this point I just keep my expectations really low and am thrilled whenever it's not total chaos. Haha. There will always be new things to learn and work on, and the further you progress the more new things you'll find to work on. That's part of the fun


Thanks, it had been so long since we were in an obedience class that I underestimated how many treats I would need, what value they needed to be, forgot my clicker... Plus I was hungry so I know that was making everything seem worse in my head, haha. She wasn't being as responsive as she normally is and I know that was my fault but it was still just frustrating me. Then when we were walking to the house from the car there was a deer and all bets were off. Sigh.

Hopefully next week will be better.


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## Remaru

So ultra food focused dogs/dogs that know the difference between training time and real life. This is a huge stumbling block with Hobgoblin right now and I am stumped on what to do with him. It is basic living with him stuff not tricks/behaviors I am trying to teach. Obviously he is also becoming an adolescent and there is some stuff popping up I'm not loving (reactivity to people at night, mostly men, some nervousness/fear, and he is big so counter surfing). Anyway this is the issue and I am trying to decide if we are more struggling with him being so focused on the food that he can't think (and that may well be it, despite 3 months of zen puppy and self control work he is still really food obsessed) or if it comes down to just knowing that he has to do certain things when we are working but doesn't make the connection to other times.

Issues are pestering the cat. He is not trying to hurt her at all, he just wants to sniff all over her and play with her. She, as is her prerogative, has decided that he is the most annoying and uncouth creature on the planet and wants him far far away from her. Now one would assume that having had his face scratched multiple times would be enough but it is not, he still annoys her daily. I tell him to "leave it" or send him to his mat but next time he sees her he is right back at it. I would prefer she could actually be in the same room as the rest of us without being accosted. So I have tried many times to teach him to sit next to her and ignore her. Problem is if it is "training time" he doesn't even know the cat exists, we can stand next to her and he just stares at me. She can walk across his paws and he doesn't respond at all. I've been working on this for 3months and nothing. Moment training ends he is right back to rushing at her or at least shoving his nose in places she would prefer his nose didn't go. 

It isn't just the cat though, now that he has grown 5 inches in the past few months he can reach the counters without trying and he likes to sniff for food. So I worked on teaching him to walk by without looking/smelling. Again same issue, the counters and any food on them (even really smelly things like cut up food rolls or canned cat food) don't exist during training time. As soon as training time ends he is right back at it. He will stick his nose on the table, chairs, and lately he is in the dishwasher as soon as I open it. I've tried training him to lay down next to the dishwasher as soon as it is opened but same issue. I'm having a hard time with how to train it because I'm not sure if it is the food making him go brain dead or just a lack of ability to generalize in this way. It is just so weird to have him so perfect one minute and so naughty the rest of the time. He is like Jekyll and Hyde.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Been using my Ruffwear Harness, strapped a second leash to the front clip thing. Went on the easiest walks I've ever walked with this dog. It only took a few uncomfortable pulls for her to finally just.. stop. I have a perfect loose leash walk now in the harness, as long as a squirrel doesn't go by. Now if only I could say the same for her flat collar. At least I can go on a walk when I'm just not %100 in the time consuming, super-focus training mood. It's a good feeling.


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## elrohwen

Remaru, I'm not sure what to say other than your dog sounds normal to me.

I would work on getting rewards off of you, so he knows that they still exist even if it's not "training time". Start by putting them up on a counter, and progress to running from another room into the kitchen to get a reward. Let him know that any time can be training time if he makes a good choice.

Honestly, being perfect when the treats are out and naughty when they're not is totally normal. Watson is a horrible counter surfer but a star at doggy zen. It's all about tricking them into thinking that rewards appear out of thin air, and managing the environment the rest of the time.


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## CptJack

What Elrohwen said.

Using treats in training works the same way slot machines suck people in. You have to make the rewards 'invisible' to the dog and then randomize when or how they're treated. You can sometimes get things generalized, but even doing that it's... you have to give an active command and eventually - and it is eventually - if you keep them from engaging in the 'bad' thing long enough through management the good behavior becomes the habit. 

But agreed - that all sounds really, really normal.


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## Remaru

We've done all of that. In fact the treat bag is sitting on the coffee table next to me 24/7. What happens is he starts pestering the cat so I say "leave it" he stops and bolts for me to lay down. Great, click and treat. Here is where the issue lies, he is now in "training mode" and will lay next to me for the next 20minutes waiting for something else to happen. Then we are back to the same problem behavior. We can't work on the problem behavior during training sessions because of the focus issue it is "training time" and he is perfect puppy during training time. I've tried treats on the counter, treats on the windowsill, treats on top of the fridge (that was awful, I couldn't reach them when I needed them). He just knows what he is supposed to do in that time and any time he has received a reward for a command it is now "training time". I do understand the concept of randomized treats and generalizing behaviors it just isn't working in this particular context. That is what I'm struggling with, he usually generalizes very well it is just this particular group of issues and all I've been able to do is keep pretending we are working on it each training session which feels really silly when I'm rewarding him for doing nothing. The typical videos and websites are no help because they assume your dog will progress from sitting nicely waiting for you to offer food, making eye contact, ignoring food on the floor, ignoring food on a table, ect. He does all of those things he just won't do them outside of training time (with the exception of waiting for food I'm holding in my hands because if I'm holding food in my hand = training time). It is that assumption that the dog will just naturally progress to doing it all of the time that I'm struggling with, there is a disconnect there somewhere. 

I get that generalization is something many dogs have trouble with and I know other dogs struggle with training time vs daily life which is why I asked. However I have personally never had a problem quite like this one before, all of his other behaviors/cues are solid day, night, training time, all the time, with or without rewards. It is really just this one group of behaviors and it seems to have something to do with the food obsession. He is highly food driven, always acts like he is starving. He is not a bad dog or even difficult to train. He is really great actually, we've managed far more than I expected in the time he has been here. He can hold a watch me for 5 minutes waiting for a release to get food. When training he can walk circles around my son sitting on the floor eating and never even glance at him. We even managed to figure out back foot targeting (and he is not at all graceful yet LOL). This is just confounding me because it is not typical of him. Of course it could be adolescent impulse control issues as well.


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## CptJack

I don't think there IS a natural assumption that the dog will progress to doing it all of the time, though. I think the assumption is that if you're around you are going to be able to stop, leave it, watch me, and teach him not to do it IN FRONT OF YOU, eventually, through consistently removing his opportunity to do it and arranging situations (ie: training) to reward him for not and then slowly and gradually randomizing the treat giving that you might buy yourself some time in an emergency, but that when left with food or your backs turned dogs are... going to take the food. 

And that even not doing it in front of you? Months, and months of management to prevent practicing and to instill the habit of NOT doing it and of practicing commands to get him to back off. 

Maybe I'm just confused? But it sounds like you're expecting to be able to like, get ready for dinner with him in the room and have him not steal from the counter and that's reasonable. He'll get it. Expect it to take 6+ months for him to, and for it to take longer every time he's able to self-reward. Ditto that the cat. 

Even not accounting for him being a teenager.

Expect this to take consistent work until he's probably 2. Don't ever expect to leave him in a room with food on the counter and not have him take it. 

Again, it's possible I'm misunderstanding (and likely even - mobiles been removing chunks of other people's posts for me) but usually dogs who are completely and absolutely reliable around food without someone present and managing? They're born, not trained. 

In my house that accounts for Kylie and Jack. Won't touch food, no matter what. Won't even try to counter surf. Won't take food on the FLOOR unless it's handed to them. The other 3? Given an opportunity and my back turned would absolutely take the cookie (there's a video about this and dogs being told not to do something and when the owners eyes were covered they would but not while they were open). Or the steak off the counter. Thud's 2 next month. He's just about stopped making grabs, but he'll beg. Molly's about 6 months. She's not even close.


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## Kyllobernese

I quite agree that some dogs are just born that way (leaving food) but some will do it no matter how long you train them. Susie is a big dog but from the time she was a puppy, she never touched food that was not given to her. I never trained her not to, she just didn't. I could leave her in the Van with my groceries and she would never touch them. Kris has never counter serfed as she has never had the opportunity to but I would still not trust her loose in the kitchen with food on the counter if I was not there even though she has never taken anything or even tried to when I was present.


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## Remaru

That's just it, he doesn't touch food, he just does odd things like shove his head in the dishwasher or sniff all over the counters. He would never ever stick his head on the counter when I am cooking for example (though he is under my feet or he tries to stick his head in the oven, not ideal). Freyja can drop her food on the floor and he will just walk past it, but if I open the dishwasher there he is shoving his head in. I think right now the most annoying is him pestering the cat because it is irritating the cat and running the real risk that she is going to hurt him (he has no intention of hurting her but she could do some damage to his eyes if he isn't careful). It is that we can't even really work on it because during training he will not repeat any of the behaviors so no way to work on them. If I open the dishwasher during "training" he ignores it. We can walk by it a dozen times and he acts like it doesn't exist. The cat can run all over the living room, play with his tail, you name it and nothing. He doesn't lick the counters (this is what he does that bugs me, sniffs and licks all over the counters, it's weird) or the table or the chairs during training. As far as I can tell he isn't after food though he will beg at the kids a little when they eat, again, not during training which I often do during their lunch time (they homeschool) hoping I could work on it (and cause I have more time while they eat). Ultimately he does need a good default leave it as the hope is he can be my SD but when he is out with me he does ignore everything. This is really more a matter of living in the house with us comfortably. I don't want a dog licking my clean dishes, or my counters, or my table and I definitely can't have him pestering the cat. I think I just explained it badly. I train him using his kibble (nothing real exciting here but he doesn't need it, he is really food driven) and I want him to learn to ignore the existence of the counters, tables, dishwasher, chairs, ect. I assume they smell like food, his food if put some there or probably our food from eating or prepping (we are mostly vegan though so it can't be terribly exciting smelling here). It is just that even with food like candy or whatever sitting well in his reach on the table he has never snatched anything or even tried he is just sniffing and licking. He also doesn't take food from strangers. 

What I meant was the assumption that a dog would eventually develop an increased impulse control or that the impulse control they learned would extend further and to more things as you worked with them. Maybe that is just the impression I get. I really more meant that you would eventually get a generalization that we aren't seeing here.


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## elrohwen

When I said to get the food off of you, I didn't mean literally off of your person (though that is the start). I meant put it away completely. No dish of treats sitting nearby. Teach him that making good choices means that you can get up, go in the kitchen, open the cabinet, and produce something yummy. 

So then you tell him to leave the cat, he does, you go and get a reward for him, and then that's it. If he thinks it's "training time" and sits and stares at you, tell him "ok" or "all done" or whatever and then just ignore him. 

I agree with the others that you're expecting too much, and his behavior is really not unusual at all. Just because you've told him to leave the cat, and he knows what that means, does not mean he's going to generalize to always leaving the cat alone. By telling him to "leave it", you're telling him when and how to display impulse control and he's happy to do it. He hasn't learned that displaying impulse control on his own, without your help will result in a reward. I think all adolescents are like that. It's just something you have to build into a habit and as they mature it becomes the normal choice to make. But it takes months and years of making it into a habit, and catching the dog making a good choice on his own every once in a while.

The dishwasher is easier than the cat. When you go to open it, he will probably try to shove his head in. As soon as he does that, close it again and wait for him to back up. Then open again. Repeat. You'll probably need someone watching him and the dishwasher, and someone else actually doing the dishes for a while. But he will figure it out.


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## Laurelin

We are dealing with biting right now.  

I have 7 bruises on my arms from overstimulated spotted alligator dog. And yesterday when I went to remove myself from him when he started crazed biting, he grabbed the fatty part of my upper arm. Hurt so bad! 

So we're going to have to be kenneling him when he wants to bite and won't settle down.

It's like he has witching hours. All of a sudden bite bite bite and then 10 minutes later he's dead asleep and calm.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> It's like he has witching hours. All of a sudden bite bite bite and then 10 minutes later he's dead asleep and calm.


Oh yeah, Watson was so bad about that. Right at bedtime he turned into a lunatic and just wanted to bite. Crating didn't work at all, because he would be a perfect angel in his crate, but as soon as we let him out he would attack us again. At least before he was attacking us while we were getting ready for bed, and then he would sleep, but when we crated him he just attacked us in bed. Once he snatched my book when I tried to ignore him, and then hit me in the head with his open mouth. Jerk.

So I just started keeping a tug toy in the bedroom and we'd play really hard for 5 minutes and get out the demons without actually biting me. Now he still tries to play a bit at bedtime, but it's just a little play bowing and running around for 30 seconds before settling down. I think he was almost 2 when he finally stopped the wild biting.


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## jade5280

We're working on basic obedience with Gypsy and she is learning very quickly. We've been doing touch, sit, stay, leave it. When she hears the cat upstairs she runs to the gate and I tell her to "leave it" she leaves it 100% of the time and I give her a treat. She will still whine after looking for the cat, but its progress.

Also weird thing... a couple times in the morning when she was laying on the bed I brought the cat up to her and Gypsy just laid there and sniffed it. I held the cat to her for about 20 seconds and take it away before Gypsy gets too sniffy and alert. When I take the cat away then Gypsy jumps up, whines, runs around looking for the cat. I think maybe it's not aggression as much as she wants to chase the furry thing running around.

If it was aggression do you think she would automatically try to hurt the cat when I bring it to her even if it's only for a few seconds? Do you think it's helping her become accustomed to the cat when I do this or should I stop?

I have black out fence tarp on order so Gypsy cant see other dogs when she is outside. I also ordered some agility equipment and I'm excited to try it. I think it will help Gypsy gain some confidence. Hoping for it to come in soon.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> If it was aggression do you think she would automatically try to hurt the cat when I bring it to her even if it's only for a few seconds? Do you think it's helping her become accustomed to the cat when I do this or should I stop?


I think with prey drive, there can be a fine line between curiosity and wanting to actually harm the small fuzzy thing. I have known dogs who immediately knew what to do with small animals, and actively seek them out to kill them. Then I know others who were just curious at first, but ended up picking up the animal and killing it more by accident than anything. 

Like, Watson is not aggressive towards the rabbits really, but he is overly aroused and curious and I have no doubt he would hurt them. It's not exactly the same as my friend's JRTs who would do anything possible to get into the rabbit room and kill them, but it still means we keep them separate. At least with a dog who is only curious a cat will typically defend itself and the dog will hopefully knock it off.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> I think with prey drive, there can be a fine line between curiosity and wanting to actually harm the small fuzzy thing. I have known dogs who immediately knew what to do with small animals, and actively seek them out to kill them. Then I know others who were just curious at first, but ended up picking up the animal and killing it more by accident than anything.
> 
> Like, Watson is not aggressive towards the rabbits really, but he is overly aroused and curious and I have no doubt he would hurt them. It's not exactly the same as my friend's JRTs who would do anything possible to get into the rabbit room and kill them, but it still means we keep them separate. At least with a dog who is only curious a cat will typically defend itself and the dog will hopefully knock it off.


Yeah I think if she actually caught the cat after a chase she would hurt it even if unintentionally. It really sucks because my cat does not defend herself. She has never once scratched Ryker. She will hiss and puff up, but that's it. She's skittish even with people and she's very active so she's always running around. If I had a more mellow cat I think it would be easier.


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## ireth0

jade5280 said:


> Yeah I think if she actually caught the cat after a chase she would hurt it even if unintentionally. It really sucks because my cat does not defend herself. She has never once scratched Ryker. She will hiss and puff up, but that's it. She's skittish even with people and she's very active so she's always running around. If I had a more mellow cat I think it would be easier.


Cats defending isn't always the answer. When our cat took swipes at Luna, Luna just got more aroused and thought, "Oooooh... an INTERACTIVE toy!" but if the cats are just normally going about their business she barely cares that they're there. The past couple nights we've had two instances where Luna was using her wobbler, came over to sniff a cat in my lap on the floor, and then just went back to her wobbler regardless of the reaction of the cat. (running, etc)


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Cats defending isn't always the answer. When our cat took swipes at Luna, Luna just got more aroused and thought, "Oooooh... an INTERACTIVE toy!" but if the cats are just normally going about their business she barely cares that they're there. The past couple nights we've had two instances where Luna was using her wobbler, came over to sniff a cat in my lap on the floor, and then just went back to her wobbler regardless of the reaction of the cat. (running, etc)


It worked well with Watson at least. The cat hissed and took a swipe and that was it - Watson wouldn't voluntarily get within 10ft of the cat. He wasn't my cat, so I don't know what their relationship would have been like long term, but it started well with the cat putting Watson in his place. I have no doubt that with a nervous cat who ran around a lot, Watson would get over the top and obsessive about it.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> It worked well with Watson at least. The cat hissed and took a swipe and that was it - Watson wouldn't voluntarily get within 10ft of the cat. He wasn't my cat, so I don't know what their relationship would have been like long term, but it started well with the cat putting Watson in his place. I have no doubt that with a nervous cat who ran around a lot, Watson would get over the top and obsessive about it.


Yea, for us Luna got a LOT more stimulated by the cats trying to fend her off than them just being/running. She has been loose with them a couple times (a couple times by accident) and hasn't tried to harm them, so I'm confident she isn't out to kill them. She just finds them fun and needs to be taught how to appropriately interact. 

It's just frustrating because most of the internet advice on dogs & cats is "If you just have a cat that will defend itself everything will be fiiiiiine." because that wasn't the case for us and thinking there was no other way to make it work caused me a lot of personal strife wondering if I was just putting the cats in danger for something that was never going to work.

This isn't directed at you specifically, just my general experience with the information that's put out there for people trying to figure out what to do.


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## Laurelin

Mia initially just seemed to want to chase rodents. I had rodent pets in the past and that's what she wanted with them... She'd get excited and chase and sniff and try to bat at it with her paws. 

Until she got her first kill. I am pretty sure it was an accident. I was not there, just found her with the dead mouse. From there on she got very efficient. Her second kill was kind of sloppy and took a few tries to completely dispatch the mouse. Her third though... She killed it in an instant. Her fourth she busted up stuff to get to the mouse and then killed it in an instant. 

Not a cat but it did continuously escalate with her.


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## elrohwen

My friends have a young GSD who has killed a couple ground hogs now. He tried to play with the first one, bouncing around, barking, play bowing, etc. When the ground hog hissed and charged he picked it up, killing it accidentally. When he dropped it he tried to play with it again. Haha.

But now that he's got the hang of it, he just kills them quickly instead of trying to play. It definitely escalated.


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## jade5280

Laurelin said:


> Mia initially just seemed to want to chase rodents. I had rodent pets in the past and that's what she wanted with them... She'd get excited and chase and sniff and try to bat at it with her paws.
> 
> Until she got her first kill. I am pretty sure it was an accident. I was not there, just found her with the dead mouse. From there on she got very efficient. Her second kill was kind of sloppy and took a few tries to completely dispatch the mouse. Her third though... She killed it in an instant. Her fourth she busted up stuff to get to the mouse and then killed it in an instant.
> 
> Not a cat but it did continuously escalate with her.


That's what I'm worried about. I don't know if Gypsy was used for hunting. Chances are she probably was and that's how she got lost. She could have been trained from a very young age to go after small animals. Who knows if she's killed one before.


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## Galathiel

The cat is the single-most thing my GSD (18 months old) gets in trouble for in the house. It doesn't help that she's only 3 and will suddenly get a wild hair and tear through the house, jumping up door jambs. I keep a baby gate up so that she can 'wild hair it' through to the dog-free zone and he has enough impulse control that he doesn't chase. However, if she darts quickly close to him, he will jump too and ALWAYS wants to sniff and mess with her. He gets to spend quite a bit of time in time out (down-stay) because of it.


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## Remaru

Ok I'm trying one more time then I'm just giving up. I am not expecting him to be perfect at this, nor am I expecting to much, I came asking for advice on how to handle this particular training issue, that's all. I've seen blog posts about it before and I think posts here as well but I can't remember for sure. Maybe I'm not explaining myself well, it is entirely possible as I don't communicate half as well as I did before I started losing words and parts of my memory. The break down is basically he knows "leave it". He is perfect with "leave it" in the house, out of the house, with high value items, the only issue we have with leave it is applying it to cats running from him outside the house (I've started using "on by" for walking past running animals and jogging people, seems to work better but different topic). So it isn't a matter of him not knowing a command, that he has. He is also great with impulse control games, he has those down. He does not steal food from other dogs, off of counters, off of the table, from people eating ect. The issue is working on his impulse control and getting him to ignore things without my having to say "leave it". The things in this case happen to be the cat, the dishwasher, sniffing/licking the counter (he isn't stealing food just licking), the table, and chairs. I am trying to get tips on how to work on this type of impulse control with a dog who is perfect at the "game" during training. I would say it is frustrating but I'm not frustrated exactly (I mean I am when I have to call him off the cat for the fifteenth time in a day when in training he is perfect) just stumped. Like I said I know I've read about people whose dogs had similar issues but I don't remember how they got past it other than varying training time or working short bursts of training all day but for Hobgoblin the second a piece of food hits his mouth he is in training mode. Is there a different method I am not thinking of or what? I understand I can keep hammering away with the "leave it" work but eventually I need to be able to do things like load the dishwasher without a dog nose in the way and honestly the cat needs to not be pestered constantly, not to mention Hobs already has quite a few scars on his face from her. I do worry she will hurt him badly (it is her right to protect herself but I don't need him losing an eye).


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## Kathyy

I guess you don't use leave it at all. I use leave it for unexpected bounties that fell from the heavens and plates of food that don't belong to dog not for stuff that is always there.

I probably would keep the dog out of that room when I am working there. My dogs stay on the rug when cooking/cleaning is going on so they are not underfoot. At first they stayed there getting a treat at irregular intervals, now they stay just because 'dinner theater' is fascinating stuff. After walks and play time it is their favorite time of the day. 

For the annoying licking you need to be on top of him at all times and interrupt/redirect as soon as you see that look in his eyes. If you aren't in the room with him he cannot be in that room to practice that bad behavior. You could attempt to use one of the bitter tasting liquids as well I guess. If he must be in the room with you then he needs to be on a bed or tethered or crated. Cooking is dangerous and cleaning up not much safer!

Ginger is a licker but she only licks us. Since she is mature and very responsive to our moods she was able to figure out we didn't care to have our eyeballs polished and noses reamed out quickly. We allow licking of chins and hands and now she is pretty good at nose kisses as well. I hate keeping a dog from doing what is important to him/her but no idea what you could have him lick that would be more acceptable than your house. Redirect to a particular toy that is fun to lick? You do not want him to be licking himself, that is a horrible habit!


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## elrohwen

Remaru said:


> Ok I'm trying one more time then I'm just giving up. I am not expecting him to be perfect at this, nor am I expecting to much, I came asking for advice on how to handle this particular training issue, that's all.


I gave advice that relates to a lot of what you're asking. Do you have a specific question? Because my advice is the same as it was. I even gave a very specific way to work with the dishwasher thing.

ETA: A couple of us also mentioned just doing it a lot, like for months, until it becomes habit that the dog just leaves it before you have to say anything. There isn't a magic training method for this sort of thing, it's just building a habit and managing the dog's environment when you don't feel like being on top of them every second (like if you don't feel like telling him to "leave it" at the dishwasher that night, just gate him out of the kitchen when you need to open it)


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## Remaru

Yes my goal for leave it was things we found on the ground when out or things left lying around (the other dogs food dishes ect). He does have a mat command and it works for food prep times it is those daily chore times or just all day long that things get sort of fuzzy. My house is tiny and busy and he is always with me. So I am working on school work with my kids and he is licking the counter next to me while my back is turned or most typically the cat is sitting on a chair at the table so he takes advantage of that moment to annoy her. I don't know that I want bitter spray on my counters plus I clean them so often it would probably be gone right away anyway. I think even tethered to me he could probably reach the counters anyway since the space from my counter to my table is so small (honestly the distance from my couch to my counters isn't that far) and that is where I would normally be helping my kids with their school work. At this point he has to be locked up when I leave the living area because I don't trust him even though the cat has escape areas and follows me out anyway. I'm not sure what would be fun to lick. Maybe the kong with PB in it. The difficulty really is that my house is small and open floor plan so managing the environment really means locking him up because I can't just put up a gate to keep him out and he isn't just stealing things or chewing on things I could put away. I need him to learn that impulse control and there seems to be some disconnect between the impulse control/zen puppy games and the "leave it" commands and then actually doing it on his own. This is what I'm not sure how to work on. Everything else has come relatively easily for him and we've been able to progress to doing behaviors outside, with and without treats, for longer duration or whatever but this particular set of skills (or whatever you want to call it) has caused issue. At the same time he can walk right past food on the ground outside so it isn't an issue of impulse control in a general sense.


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## ireth0

It really does sound like a case of just having to build a habit of behaviour, which is going to take time regardless of the training method you use.


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## Remaru

elrohwen said:


> I gave advice that relates to a lot of what you're asking. Do you have a specific question? Because my advice is the same as it was. I even gave a very specific way to work with the dishwasher thing.
> 
> ETA: A couple of us also mentioned just doing it a lot, like for months, until it becomes habit that the dog just leaves it before you have to say anything. There isn't a magic training method for this sort of thing, it's just building a habit and managing the dog's environment when you don't feel like being on top of them every second (like if you don't feel like telling him to "leave it" at the dishwasher that night, just gate him out of the kitchen when you need to open it)


Ok, so I'm at the dishwasher and he shoves his head in, I close the dishwasher and he looks at me...now what? I click and treat at which point he goes into training mode (which is what is going to happen if I click and treat) or I open the dishwasher again at which point he shoves his head right back in. Which one am I doing? If I do the first one this is the problem I am asking about. If I do the second one I feel like I am teaching him that the reward for looking at me is that he gets to sniff the dishes, not what I want to teach him. Also, I don't know about you but I put dishes into my dishwasher probably half a dozen or more times a day, we don't let dishes pile up and I am a stay at home mom with 2 kids. I cook 3 meals a day plus snacks for 3 people and then hubby when he gets home. That is a lot of dishwasher opening. I posted before that gating the kitchen is not an option in my house. I really am not trying to be difficult. I am trying to get to the root of the disconnect between teaching "leave it" as a command, "zen puppy", "impulse games" and then him actually learning to do these things on his own. I get that you think this is normal and not an issue. I hear you. The problem here is that he has never had this problem before with anything else and there is absolutely no way to work on it that I have found. Yes I can keep hammering away at leave it, I can just keep doing that and hope that he gets it or take the position that "well some dogs never are trustworthy" which I guess is the point some of you are making. I don't think that is the case for him and I do think there is a better method or something I am doing wrong here. I guess I will just have to keep looking for it on my own.


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## elrohwen

Remaru said:


> Ok, so I'm at the dishwasher and he shoves his head in, I close the dishwasher and he looks at me...now what? I click and treat at which point he goes into training mode (which is what is going to happen if I click and treat) or I open the dishwasher again at which point he shoves his head right back in.


Don't click and treat. You don't need to reward him for backing away because you've closed it - he already made a poor choice by sticking his head in, so you closed it and he lost access. Then open the dishwasher again. He'll stick his head in, so you'll close it again. Don't say anything, just close it right on his head (obviously don't hurt him or actually close his head in there, but don't give him a warning or any commands). I bet it won't take more than 5 times for him to not move towards the dishwasher when you open it, because who wants their face closed in the dishwasher? *That's* when you click and treat, because he made a good choice on his own.

I think what you don't want to hear is that it takes a lot of time and consistency. If you have to open the dishwasher 20 times a day and you absolutely can't prevent him from getting near it (you can't let him out? or tether him to some furniture in the living room?) then you are going to have to watch him like a hawk and close the dishwasher every time he sticks his head in there. The dishwasher only stays open if he stays back. There's really no other way to do it. Be 100% consistent and make every moment a training moment, or find some way to keep him from getting to the dishwasher when you are too busy to worry about him.

With the dishwasher I wouldn't even worry about clicking and treating and training and saying "leave it". Just close it every time he sticks his head in and he will learn that sticking his head in is a bad idea. Then if you want you can reward him for actually making a good choice on his own to back away from it when you open it, but don't reward him for anything if you're constantly saying "leave it" and closing the dishwasher, because he's not actually making good choices, he's expecting you to make those choices for him.

ETA: It's exactly the same scenario as Watson counter surfing. He gets up, I tell him to get off, he does, and then I give him a treat. He's just learned to chain that behavior together and he was able to jump on the counter and still get a treat out of it. When your dog does something "bad" and you tell him "leave it" or whatever, he listens, then he gets a treat, you've just rewarded the behavior chain. You haven't actually rewarded for making good choices on his own, which is what you want.


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## CptJack

> Don't click and treat. You don't need to reward him for backing away because you've closed it - he already made a poor choice by sticking his head in, so you closed it and he lost access. Then open the dishwasher again. He'll stick his head in, so you'll close it again. I bet it won't take more than 5 times for him to not move towards the dishwasher when you open it, and *that's* when you click and treat, because he made a good choice on his own.
> 
> If you have to open the dishwasher 20 times a day and you absolutely can't prevent him from getting near it (you can't let him out? or tether him to some furniture in the living room?) then you are going to have to watch him like a hawk and close the dishwasher every time he sticks his head in there. There's really no other way to do it.


Yeah, this - all of the rest, too, but exactly this.

Door dashing, counter surfing, cat chasing, even loose leash walking- basically all of those basic manners thing that involve a dog wanting something you don't. There's no... command to teach for that sort of thing because it's a combination of impulse control and ingraining habits. You can make consciously backing off on their own more rewarding and that's great and good and works wonderfully-

But it works more by making a new habit for the dog and making that new habit rewarding than it does by a dog knowing a command. 

And, sadly, it really does take constant management to avoid self-rewarding and consistency to form the habit for a long time. It's not like sit or spin or whatever, where the dog learns an ACTION and then learns to generalize it. That's why in places where you can teach the dog what you do want - sit down to greet someone instead of jumping up- is easier. The equivalent here would be teaching a go to mat command and making it the most rewarding thing in the world, but it's still not really going to teach self/impulse control. 

So, yeah. you're basically trying to both make a habit and teach self-control/impulse-control. Good news is, you'll get there. Bad news? Probably going to take quite a while and consistency/management on your end to prevent forming the wrong habits and slowly gaining maturity on his.


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## Remaru

No I think the thing that gets to me is that this is a dog who will walk by a hamburger and not even look at it, not because he expects a treat but because he knows he should. Yet something isn't connecting in his brain when it comes to this particular group of behaviors. The cat I sort of get. She is fuzzy, she moves and I made the mistake of rewarding him every time he stood near her without barking in the begining (he has this bad habit of barking to initiate play, the cat hated it) so now he thinks she distributes food. He is also still young, just hitting the age where Freyja caught on to the whole cat is not worth it thing and she was soft so getting smacked around by the cat was not fun for her. I think it will take more for him. My fear is that I am messing up in this particular area and I don't know how because it only took him a month to figure out that food that was not offered to him was not his and he should not sniff it or pick it up ever. I don't have to say anything he just doesn't go for it it all. This however we have been working on for probably 2 months (3 months on the cat and if you count all of the impulse control work 3months thought the dishwasher issue is newer). 

I am going to try the dishwasher thing without food. I think that is one of the huge issues. My only option really is gating him in the entry way or putting him in the crate. I could try tethering him to the couch but I can't guarantee he can't move it since the floors are wood and the furniture moves easily. I don't let the dogs out alone, one of the shared fences is iffy and the neighbor dogs are fence aggressive, don't want to risk it. I can lock him up but I like him out in the house learning manners as much as he can be. The cat is tricky because she goes where she wants to be and often that is right where I am so even tethered to me she may be right there too. I guess leave it is going to be our only option or mat and hope she doesn't go near to tease him (she does that).

ETA: should the counter/table/chair licking be an obsession starting that I should be concerned about nipping in the bud? It is just really odd because he isn't after food or anything else on these surfaces he just wants to sniff and lick. There are things sitting on these surfaces, small appliances, mail, the kids have candy from a recent Halloween event ect. He ignores all that to lick. Definitely going to be more on top of this cause now I'm a little concerned actually.


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## CptJack

In totally unrelated news, Molly lost her crap at a dog in a youtube training video. She got over it fast, but. Seriously? 

I'm actually getting scared here.


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## elrohwen

I'm not suggesting you lock him up all the time. Just that you lock him up if you need to do dishes and really can't train him at that moment. Heck, put him in the bathroom if you can't tie him up or gate him into the living room. You are making excuses if you say that you can't always watch him and be consistent, but you don't want to put him away because you want him to learn manners. He's not going to learn any manners if you are too busy to train him in that moment - he's just going to learn bad habits. So the answer is be 100% consistent, or put him away in moments that you cannot be consistent. It's really that simple.

Honestly, you are getting too wrapped up in what you think he knows, or other things he's good at. So what if he can walk by a hamburger? He has learned that sticking his head in the dishwasher is awesome and he has been allowed to self-reinforce, so he keeps doing it. Just don't let him do it. It's not "formal training" where you have your clicker and your treats, it's just not opening the dishwasher at all until he is staying back. I guarantee that if you follow what I wrote above, he will get the idea within 5 minutes. It won't be perfect, you won't be able to turn your back on him with the dishwasher open just yet, but you will be able to put a couple things away and then reward him when you're done. And with a little more time you will be able to do a whole bunch of dishes while he just sits back and watches. 

For the cat, what about time outs? You need to control his access to the cat when he is inappropriate. Again, you say "leave it", he backs away and gets a reward, and then just does it again. He has created a behavior chain where he gets to torment the cat *and* get a treat, so he's not learning what you want him to learn. Creating unwanted behavior chains like that is frustrating, but it's really not a unique training challenge by any means. You just have to get creative about breaking it, and make sure you are rewarding the dog for making good decisions on his own, and taking away access to what he wants when he makes a poor decision. If you're going to say "leave it" and reward him after, you need to say it as he's heading anywhere near the cat, before he's had a chance to torment her. And then you need to do it every single time so he can't practice tormenting her ever.


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## Remaru

He does get put up, or he gets the "mat" command to keep him up out of the way while things are done in the kitchen (his version of out). It helps that hubby is home in the evening and he handles dishes but he isn't so hot at training so I have to manage both the dogs and cooking at the same time (things can get a little hairy then cause usually I've got kids underfoot as well). It really is those random moments during the day when I am in a rush and not thinking, or even more, I'm out of the room and hubby is "watching" the dogs. I guess I shouldn't be counting on hubby to watch the dogs....(actually I kind of already know that, he would let them get away with murder plus he naps on duty, don't ask what he lets the kids get away with). I realize I am probably over thinking things, I do that a lot. However frequently when I post things my dogs are doing on here they tend to stop doing them. I posted about Freyja being difficult to house break (she wasn't that hard, it was just during that early puppy period when you get no sleep and she was harder than Remus) as soon as I posted she stopped having accidents ans started sleeping through the night. I posted about Remus being reactive on walks, he is still leash reactive but he went from being impossible to go out the door with to only barking at other dogs (still a work in progress but not barking at people certainly helps since we live across from a park). If I get new ideas that is great. If I can put my mind at ease that he is going to get this, even better. Maybe my luck will hold out and whatever magic this forum has will work on him too.


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## gingerkid

jade5280 said:


> We're working on basic obedience with Gypsy and she is learning very quickly. We've been doing touch, sit, stay, leave it. When she hears the cat upstairs she runs to the gate and I tell her to "leave it" she leaves it 100% of the time and I give her a treat. She will still whine after looking for the cat, but its progress.
> 
> Also weird thing... a couple times in the morning when she was laying on the bed I brought the cat up to her and Gypsy just laid there and sniffed it. I held the cat to her for about 20 seconds and take it away before Gypsy gets too sniffy and alert. When I take the cat away then Gypsy jumps up, whines, runs around looking for the cat. I think maybe it's not aggression as much as she wants to chase the furry thing running around.
> 
> If it was aggression do you think she would automatically try to hurt the cat when I bring it to her even if it's only for a few seconds? Do you think it's helping her become accustomed to the cat when I do this or should I stop?
> 
> I have black out fence tarp on order so Gypsy cant see other dogs when she is outside. I also ordered some agility equipment and I'm excited to try it. I think it will help Gypsy gain some confidence. Hoping for it to come in soon.


Aggression can be triggered by high arousal levels, and the aggression is the result of not being able to handle the excitement or frustration or whatever. Similar to children who get super excited and run around and are impossible to control or get angry and go on a rampage. Just like toddlers having tantrums haven't yet learned coping mechanisms to process their emotions in an appropriate way, I think the same thing happens in dogs. I'm sure there are other factors at play, but it's just something I've noticed and that's been brought up in some of my reading. I think maybe Fiesty Fido by Patricia McConnell discusses the lack of coping mechanisms as a potential cause of reactivity. So, even though she might be interested in the cat, and have no ill intent towards it while in a calm situation, the cat running might make her so excited that she doesn't know how to respond appropriately - but that's what training is for, and it sounds like you're making progress!

And also, a dog chasing something doesn't automatically mean the dog wants to harm it. My last foster loved chasing the cat; and first time she actually "caught" him, all she did was lick him, and then play bow at him when he jumped up on a chair under the table. By the end of her stay with us, the cat was actually baiting her to chase him.


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## taquitos

Tug drive is slooooowly coming along.

He gets excited when he sees the frisbees now. When I rile him up going "GETITGETITGETIT" he will now bite and latch on for a little bit yay LOL

I know it doesn't sound like much, but it is A LOT coming from my non-tugging pup. We're still working on catching it. He will catch it if I drop it for him straight down. So far no luck on catching it when it comes flying towards him.


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## pawsaddict

I just have to brag a little here. Nova and I went for a walk this morning at what may be the most distracting time ever - school time. Normally we avoid this like the plague, but today I thought we would brave the chaos. Kids were being dropped off by their parents left, right, and centre. They were screaming, running, and playing everywhere in the playground. Some were staring at her and trying to get her attention.

It was a lot of distraction for me, but Nova handled it like a champ. She sat when I asked her to, focused on me when I needed her too, and we even did okay at not pulling on the leash. 

Considering we only have one friend with a kid (and they rarely come over), I thought she did great! Yay, Nova!!!


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## Laurelin

We were doing good on the no bite thing till we decided to play frisbee and I got nailed bad twice. Once in the arm and the second in the hand. My hand is turning blue.


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## jade5280

gingerkid said:


> Aggression can be triggered by high arousal levels, and the aggression is the result of not being able to handle the excitement or frustration or whatever. Similar to children who get super excited and run around and are impossible to control or get angry and go on a rampage. Just like toddlers having tantrums haven't yet learned coping mechanisms to process their emotions in an appropriate way, I think the same thing happens in dogs. I'm sure there are other factors at play, but it's just something I've noticed and that's been brought up in some of my reading. I think maybe Fiesty Fido by Patricia McConnell discusses the lack of coping mechanisms as a potential cause of reactivity. So, even though she might be interested in the cat, and have no ill intent towards it while in a calm situation, the cat running might make her so excited that she doesn't know how to respond appropriately - but that's what training is for, and it sounds like you're making progress!
> 
> And also, a dog chasing something doesn't automatically mean the dog wants to harm it. My last foster loved chasing the cat; and first time she actually "caught" him, all she did was lick him, and then play bow at him when he jumped up on a chair under the table. By the end of her stay with us, the cat was actually baiting her to chase him.


I feel like Gypsy has 0 amounts of coping mechanism in her when she sees something that excites/agitates/scares her. Yesterday we were in a field and a hunter came out of the woods and was walking past. Ryker barks a couple times. I tell him to quiet then he's fine. Gypsy tweaks out and is barking like a maniac. She wouldn't stop until about 15 min after the person was gone. She continued barking, whining, and looking for them. It's so awful, she has the most ear piercing annoying bark on the planet. It's like a hoarse, shrill, high pitched seal.


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## ireth0

Anybody else feel overwhelmed with the amount of things they're training/working on? I feel like I don't have enough time in the day to work on everything. 

Between nosework, basic obedience class homework, and the things I have decided we need to work on, and the non-dog training real life things I need to do it's like I don't have enough time or days in the week before the next class that gives us more stuff.

I wish I could work from home or something so I had more opportunities to train during the day vs trying to pack it all in within a couple hours when I get home.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Anybody else feel overwhelmed with the amount of things they're training/working on? I feel like I don't have enough time in the day to work on everything.
> 
> Between nosework, basic obedience class homework, and the things I have decided we need to work on, and the non-dog training real life things I need to do it's like I don't have enough time or days in the week before the next class that gives us more stuff.
> 
> I wish I could work from home or something so I had more opportunities to train during the day vs trying to pack it all in within a couple hours when I get home.


Yeah, I've gone through that off and on. It gets better as you get through the basic level classes I think, because then you have a foundation and you can choose what else you want to work on. Vs having no foundation and just working on everything all at once.

Sometimes it helps if I sit down and prioritize what I want. For a long time leash manners were just not a priority and I focused on other things. I thought they should be a priority and felt guilty for a long time, but it was a relief to just admit to myself that I couldn't do everything and leash manners was going to drop down the list. Lately I feel like other things are falling into place so I've re-focused on leash manners. You can't do it all. 

And unless you want to get to high level in obedience or agility or something, it's really not that important that you train everything fast fast fast. Take your time and enjoy it. She's a good dog without any behavior issues, so none of the things you're working on are a safety concern or anything like that.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I've gone through that off and on. It gets better as you get through the basic level classes I think, because then you have a foundation and you can choose what else you want to work on. Vs having no foundation and just working on everything all at once.
> 
> Sometimes it helps if I sit down and prioritize what I want. For a long time leash manners were just not a priority and I focused on other things. I thought they should be a priority and felt guilty for a long time, but it was a relief to just admit to myself that I couldn't do everything and leash manners was going to drop down the list. Lately I feel like other things are falling into place so I've re-focused on leash manners. You can't do it all.
> 
> And unless you want to get to high level in obedience or agility or something, it's really not that important that you train everything fast fast fast. Take your time and enjoy it. She's a good dog without any behavior issues, so none of the things you're working on are a safety concern or anything like that.


^This!

Take a deep breath, relax, and then decide what is really important to YOU right now. Not what you think everyone expects you to work on just what is important to you. Focus on that first and eventually you'll get to the other things. It's a marathon not a sprint, you have a long time to achieve the less important training goals and there will pretty much always be something else you want to work on later.


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## CptJack

ireth0 said:


> Anybody else feel overwhelmed with the amount of things they're training/working on? I feel like I don't have enough time in the day to work on everything.
> 
> Between nosework, basic obedience class homework, and the things I have decided we need to work on, and the non-dog training real life things I need to do it's like I don't have enough time or days in the week before the next class that gives us more stuff.
> 
> I wish I could work from home or something so I had more opportunities to train during the day vs trying to pack it all in within a couple hours when I get home.


I do work from home - but then I have 5 dogs. It's like I found a way to handicap myself.

I get like this sometimes, but like Elrohwen it's an off an on thing. Usually it's either when I'm in classes, or just generally about classes. At home and for general training, unless some issue is happening, I'm pretty content to just maintain basic manners and work on whatever I want when it amuses me and them. Thud's leash issues needed to be dealt with and that was a conscious thing and focused work and attention. Molly's reactivity means I'm going to be working CU for a while. Otherwise? Eh. Are they maintaining sit, down, stay, recall, loose leash manners and not being jerks in the house? If so, I'm pretty content. I'll still Do a bit of training other things here and there for bonding and fun, but it's recreation and entertainment for dogs and I - not pressure and I'm okay without a timetable.

Classes? Classes are a WHOLE different ball of wax. It's not even a particularly big deal but things like - I want Bug to get through beginner agility so come april she can go to and participate in the show 'n' go with Kylie. But... that means either Kylie and Bug in the same class (erk?) or Kylie doesn't get to go back to agility at all until April and she's already been off 6 months by the time we could start again. Or I can hold off but then... I have Bug and Molly in the same class. Which is not better, because Molly is insane. 

I don't know why this matters. I have no desire to compete with Bug. I just want to be able to take her to one show 'n' go. If I could let that go, this whole thing would be simpler. But for some reason this has become a big freaking deal to me. I've made peace with Jack hating training and thud being ill suited for dogsports I like both temperamentally and physically, but I really want to do this agility thing with the girls and... I can't be in two places at once, basically, or smoosh space/time to make all the classes I want to happen happen in a way that gets me to my dumb little goal.

So, there you have my dumb little neurosis but that's the SORT of thing I get hung up on, with wanting to do everything.


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## CptJack

Then I moaned to my husband and he said that if I promise to NEVER have 3 dogs in class at the same time again much less ask him to manage/hold one for me he'd do it for the January classes.

Now I just have to decide if I WANT to. Because it's still going to be... a lot. :/


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## gingerkid

ireth0 said:


> Anybody else feel overwhelmed with the amount of things they're training/working on? I feel like I don't have enough time in the day to work on everything.
> 
> Between nosework, basic obedience class homework, and the things I have decided we need to work on, and the non-dog training real life things I need to do it's like I don't have enough time or days in the week before the next class that gives us more stuff.
> 
> I wish I could work from home or something so I had more opportunities to train during the day vs trying to pack it all in within a couple hours when I get home.


Even taking one class, we were assigned two tricks per week; I felt like there just wasn't enough time for me to work on both of them satisfactorily. Actually, that's not true. I felt like I wasn't able to create enough treats/rewards to train them both to the level that I would like. I mean, I already train with both of his meals, and even with hot dogs cut up into tiny pieces, there's only so many bits that I can give him in a day without him starting to get pudgy.

Can you do a short training session in the morning, like, for proofing or something? Just to 10-20 repetitions of something?


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## Eeyore

Is this the right thread to freak out? We're doing an obedience trial by the end of the month and have pretty much had a month off since I picked up the puppy. Oh dear. 

I actually record our training quite often, but I'm not good at actually looking at it afterwards. This time I had some puppy footage in there as well, to get motivated of course  and I guess it was good for me to take a look at what we're doing:





Basically I'm slow, inconsistent with rewards and since he's not sure of what to do, I need to go back to rewarding everytime he gets it right. He's frustrated, too, and I think increasing frequency of rewards for some time would help me get rid of the jumping and nipping as well. He gets too far in front of me and strives towards my opposite hand, bad trainer! He did have a nice position at some points by the end of the film, and we continued some more afterwards with more improvement, but this used to be our thing! I hate it when I take for granted that something will just continue to work. And obviously it's good that we're starting over since it can't have been that great considering what it looks like now.

At least I've worked on his stay, he does well when I'm at 10-15 meters from him and playing with the puppy! Which is far from where we were only in september.


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## ireth0

Thanks for the support and advice everyone. Our class last night went much better. I think I was concerned that we would need to be able to do x thing for next class but that wasn't how it turned out, so that took a lot of stress off of me. (this was the first time we've had 2 obedience classes in a row)

I mean, she still needs to -know- these things because I want to get her CGN, but that can be done whenever, so we have time to get everything right.


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## jade5280

There is a reactive dog class about an hours drive from me. I'm so happy that I found one! Won't be taking it for a while though until we are done with the trainers and behaviorist.


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## Jadesy

Remaru said:


> If I can put my mind at ease that he is going to get this, even better. Maybe my luck will hold out and whatever magic this forum has will work on him too.


I sort of wonder about your cleaning supplies. You said he licks tables, chairs, counters, and shoves his head in the dishwasher. I know my dog has tried to lick lemon-scented dishwasher detergent before, which is what got me thinking. Is it possible that he is attracted to whatever you clean with? If you're using, say, pledge on the wood, and fruity dishwashing detergent, etc, he may just really like the taste?


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## Remaru

Jadesy said:


> I sort of wonder about your cleaning supplies. You said he licks tables, chairs, counters, and shoves his head in the dishwasher. I know my dog has tried to lick lemon-scented dishwasher detergent before, which is what got me thinking. Is it possible that he is attracted to whatever you clean with? If you're using, say, pledge on the wood, and fruity dishwashing detergent, etc, he may just really like the taste?


I clean with vinegar water. It is entirely possible he likes the way it tastes. The cat, who is supposed to hate vinegar (all of the sites say to use diluted vinegar to keep cats off of tables) loves it. I use cascade in the dishwasher, it doesn't smell fruity to me, just like normal dish detergent (it's the kind with jet dry in it). 

I am glad to say that he has stopped shoving his head in the dishwasher. No idea why, but as soon as I posted about it he stopped. Still pestering the cat though. Unfortunately the cat seems to have decided to take it upon herself to find him and pester him back. It reminds me of my kids actually. On the plus side she is no longer scratching him, just yowling at him when he goes too far sniffing. On the down side it is almost impossible to keep him away from her when she is seeking him out to taunt. I'm not sure if this is her way of creating a relationship or what. At this point so long as he isn't after her when she is sitting at the kitchen table and it isn't coming to blows I'm just letting them sort it out. 

I do want to brag on him a bit, he finally figured out that he has back feet. He is using his new found discovery for evil LOL. My youngest son has an antique children's rocking chair in the living room that he likes to sit in. Hobgoblin decided he wanted a place to sit so he backed himself up and put his back feet and bum right up on the chair. My son was mildly offended but he looked hilarious.


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## CptJack

The new fun thing going on here is that her response to ME running is to try and get in front of me and/or to leap at my arms and bite. Not hard, but she's definitely making grabs. I mentioned it elsewhere but I'm mentioning it again because it's what's being worked on right now. Because that's going to be useful in agility (or ever).

The other issue we have going on is the sudden inexplicable urge to leap straight up into my face, but I'm keeping that behavior just turning it into something useful. The pouncing and shoving her front paws into my stomach however, like the arm grabbing, can just go.

Besides making that stuff stop and getting ready for Agility classes in Jan. My primary focus is cleaning up a lot of Kylie's stuff. She's had some sliding going on that's my fault. I also really really want to get a freestyle routine together. Not for anything except fun, but I found a good song and I want to play with it. I've been *meaning* to do it for ages - like years. I would like to actually DO IT before 2016


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## elrohwen

I posted on the Obedience thread but wanted to brag here. We took our first rally course in 10 months (and first class of any kind in 5 months) last night and Watson was fantastic. All of the heeling work I have put into him the last year just shone through. He was focused, he had very pretty heeling, and he worked hard for the entire class (and we got a lot of runs with only one other person there).

I thought we would have all sorts of things to work through, but my main goal now is just getting the food off of me. The rate of reward was pretty low, only about 3-5 treats for an entire novice course, but I need to get them out of my hand and then out of the ring. But that's a really good place to be at considering where we were in January. The instructor kept commenting on how engaged he was with me, and how great our relationship was. It has been 2 years of hard work to get to this point, so that was great to hear. 

Since this thread is about goals, I'm going to put it out into the universe that my goal is to be ready for rally novice when we attend Welshie nationals in April. That probably means signing up for a trial, or a match at the very least, before that to prepare. I don't want my first time to be at a big show with all of the Welshie people watching. Haha.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Thanks for the support and advice everyone. Our class last night went much better. I think I was concerned that we would need to be able to do x thing for next class but that wasn't how it turned out, so that took a lot of stress off of me. (this was the first time we've had 2 obedience classes in a row)
> 
> I mean, she still needs to -know- these things because I want to get her CGN, but that can be done whenever, so we have time to get everything right.


We took a basic obedience class (the one after his two puppy classes) 3 times before we could move on. He arguably "knew" the stuff, but he was so wild and out of control. Haha. There's no timeline! There will always be some dogs in the class who know everything and you wonder why they're even in the class, and some who know nothing (or are just wild) and need a lot of improvement. Everybody is on different levels and that's ok, the instructors expect it. Nobody expects your dog to be perfect and fluent with everything by the end of a 6 week class, or even in time for the next class.



jade5280 said:


> There is a reactive dog class about an hours drive from me. I'm so happy that I found one! Won't be taking it for a while though until we are done with the trainers and behaviorist.


Yay! I'd love to hear what they do in the class when you go.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> We took a basic obedience class (the one after his two puppy classes) 3 times before we could move on. He arguably "knew" the stuff, but he was so wild and out of control. Haha. There's no timeline! There will always be some dogs in the class who know everything and you wonder why they're even in the class, and some who know nothing (or are just wild) and need a lot of improvement. Everybody is on different levels and that's ok, the instructors expect it. Nobody expects your dog to be perfect and fluent with everything by the end of a 6 week class, or even in time for the next class.
> 
> 
> 
> Yay! I'd love to hear what they do in the class when you go.


Yea, it seems like our class is more focused on creating and reinforcing good habits and behaviour, rather than knowing specific commands. (aside from a few) Last class we were working on attention with distractions (LAT), holding positions until released, rules for playing with toys (I was happy about this one because I've been wanting to work on that- take it, drop it, etc), and coming when called... sort of. 

The way we're doing it is to call the dog's name, then move away with a hand out and encourage them to come to you. Ask for a sit when they get to you and then reward. Is that how it's normally done? I was presuming their name was just a 'eh, I wanna say something to you' followed by a command, but maybe it's a foundational thing to just use their name at first and we'll get to the command later. She's not so great with name recognition which is mostly our fault, between the two of us we rarely use her actual name.

With the toys... she's Luna, haha. She plays and plays hard for about +-5mins and then she's done with it. So while other people were still working on toy stuff we practiced downs and distraction training. 

The rest of the class also did some 'sit when excited instead of jumping' work which involved trying to get our dogs excited... well after that toy play Luna was over getting excited. I told the instructor that getting her amped up is a workout for me (jumping around, Minnie mouse voice, clapping, etc) and she asked if we had issues with jumping and I told her generally speaking no, so she said not to worry about it.


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## elrohwen

Sounds like a great balanced class! I love when they work on fun things like toy play instead of just focusing on obedience behaviors all the time. It's all important and something like getting excited and then sitting is going to be more useful to most people than a formal heel.

I think training "come" depends on what you're doing, and there are different ways to train it. I use Watson's name to get his attention, so if I call his name in that tone of voice he'd better at least look at me. I only use "come" to mean a formal obedience recall with a sit in front and I do say it as "Watson come!" usually. I use "here" as a recall where he's not expected to sit in front.In less formal situations I use a cue like "this way" to mean "I'm going this way and you need to move with me, but not necessarily come to me". So basically there's a lot of leeway in how and what you train. I do like having quick and instant name recognition as the primary cue though. It's easy to train that just sitting around the house in quiet times, and it's easy to build off of.


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## CptJack

Names for me are basically just a means of getting the dog's attention. 

Recall for me is ridiculous. I probably have a dozen ways of recalling my dogs, with various degrees of seriousness, formality and urgency. "Come" is the most formal with the least leeway. Then there's 'comeon' and 'get over here' and whistles and beckoning gestures and for an actual emergency recall... 'Jack'. 

I have no idea why my dogs do anything I want them to, honestly. I'm not always the most consistent person on the planet (clearly). At the same time I think there's a lot of talking to dogs and they pick up a lot through that, so things like getting the dog to come toward you develop somewhat organically IN ADDITION to more formal commands.

Like one of my recalls is 'bye' which basically is an indication that I'm going to disappear if they don't book it and catch up/get with me/stop faffing around/pay attention. Then everyone picks up waving at Bug to get her to come, and so on.


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## ireth0

CptJack said:


> Names for me are basically just a means of getting the dog's attention.
> 
> Recall for me is ridiculous. I probably have a dozen ways of recalling my dogs, with various degrees of seriousness, formality and urgency. "Come" is the most formal with the least leeway. Then there's 'comeon' and 'get over here' and whistles and beckoning gestures and for an actual emergency recall... 'Jack'.
> 
> I have no idea why my dogs do anything I want them to, honestly. I'm not always the most consistent person on the planet (clearly). At the same time I think there's a lot of talking to dogs and they pick up a lot through that, so things like getting the dog to come toward you develop somewhat organically IN ADDITION to more formal commands.


Yea we do other things too. 'Let's go' 'This way' 'Come on' Clapping hands, tongue clicking, various gestures, etc. She's only been off leash (in enclosed areas) 3 times now so actual recall training is minimum at this point.


----------



## dagwall

I'm bad and have barely done any serious recall training outside of the small amount we did in his basic obedience class and CGC prep class. In controlled environments Jubel will come when called the vast majority of the time. I'm not consistent in what I say either; "Jubel come!" and "Let's go!" are the most commonly used sometimes I'll just say his name and start walking the other direction. The rare times I've had him off leash in none enclosed areas I can guide him like Elrohwen described with "this way!" if he took a wrong turn at a split or I just want him a bit closer. Never had any issues when we did go to the dog park, simply call out "Let's go!" and head for the gate and he'd come running. Figure he really didn't want to be left behind haha.

When I've dropped the leash because he really looked like he wanted to play fetch with the neighborhood dogs in the park but instead decides to make a run for the few openings in the baseball field fencing I've had good luck with "Jubel, wanna go for a walk!" he's run right back so we can go for a walk haha. He likes to eat dirt under the bush in the backyard so I've started leashing him frequently in the backyard so he can't. If I just let him out and he starts messing around "carrot" is very good at getting him to run back inside... dog loves carrots.


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## CptJack

I'm teaching Kylie and Molly to back up. Molly's pretty good.

Kylie keeps popping all the way up on her backlegs and hopping backward. That's not even KIND OF what I was going for, but I think I'm going to keep it because it's funny as heck.


----------



## gingerkid

ireth0 said:


> Yea we do other things too. 'Let's go' 'This way' 'Come on' Clapping hands, tongue clicking, various gestures, etc. She's only been off leash (in enclosed areas) 3 times now so actual recall training is minimum at this point.


After watching a DVD of a Sue Sternberg seminar, I started training recall with a "Touch" command. IMO, it leaves very little room for misinterpretation. The command is "Snowball, Touch" and the expected action is Snowball touching my hand with his nose. I mostly use it in potentially dangerous situations where I want Snowball right by me, and/or want to grab his collar, or if we are going past something that is very distracting, in which case he can focus on the target (my hand) while we walk past the distraction. 

Something else I started doing after seeing the DVD is always rewarding for a successful recall. While I think that it shouldn't be necessary for a dog to be rewarded for performing every command, a single failure of recall can have serious repercussions. Rewarding after every successful recall in a non-emergency situation continually builds up the value of the command so that it is more reliable in non-emergency situations. Essentially it removes any guesswork for the dog - "Will I get a treat this time?" - and turns it into "Oh boy, I get a treat!"


----------



## ireth0

gingerkid said:


> After watching a DVD of a Sue Sternberg seminar, I started training recall with a "Touch" command. IMO, it leaves very little room for misinterpretation. The command is "Snowball, Touch" and the expected action is Snowball touching my hand with his nose. I mostly use it in potentially dangerous situations where I want Snowball right by me, and/or want to grab his collar, or if we are going past something that is very distracting, in which case he can focus on the target (my hand) while we walk past the distraction.
> 
> Something else I started doing after seeing the DVD is always rewarding for a successful recall. While I think that it shouldn't be necessary for a dog to be rewarded for performing every command, a single failure of recall can have serious repercussions. Rewarding after every successful recall in a non-emergency situation continually builds up the value of the command so that it is more reliable in non-emergency situations. Essentially it removes any guesswork for the dog - "Will I get a treat this time?" - and turns it into "Oh boy, I get a treat!"


Yea, we have done just a few sessions of 'touch'. Certainly not to the point that I'd consider her reliable with the command at all yet, but we could build on that. Mostly I've been just rewarding her when she comes to either of us day to day without using a cue first (vs setting up actual recall training sessions). Although my bf likes to get her to stay when using a long line for walks, walk away from her, and then call her and she comes at you like crazy, (unless she's tired) haha.

The sports fields here just became available to use as off leash dog areas until the spring, so maybe we'll take advantage of those to practice. 

One of the biggest challenges I have with her in general is that she seems to get bored of specific activities fairly quickly. So I've been having to switch up what I'm training after a certain point because she's just not interested in doing that particular thing anymore. That or I just do short sessions.

Even with games like fetch (or what she can do of fetch) and tug, after a certain point she's just -done- with the game. Honestly she kind of reminds me of myself in needing to have a point to the activity to enjoy or want to do it. When we do nosework she wants to work so much and always wants to go again when class is over, but training games or other play 'just for fun'? Give her 5mins and she's over it.


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## elrohwen

It could be that she's just a dog who is easily bored, and she needs short sessions that end on a high note while she's still excited. Over time I think training will become higher value for her and her stamina for it will build. 

It could also be stress. Learning something new or practicing something she's not solid on might be stressful for her. Walking off in the middle of training or sniffing around as if bored can be signs of stress. At this point if Watson leaves during training, I know it's because he's stressed and I need to change how I'm approaching it either by making it easier or switching to something he loves to do.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> It could be that she's just a dog who is easily bored, and she needs short sessions that end on a high note while she's still excited. Over time I think training will become higher value for her and her stamina for it will build.
> 
> It could also be stress. Learning something new or practicing something she's not solid on might be stressful for her. Walking off in the middle of training or sniffing around as if bored can be signs of stress. At this point if Watson leaves during training, I know it's because he's stressed and I need to change how I'm approaching it either by making it easier or switching to something he loves to do.


That's a good point, I'll keep that in mind. I don't know what her experience with training was before we got her. 

She's only actually walked off on me once, but more often (not all time but if I've been doing the same thing for a period of time) she will just stop. For example, we've been working on down, and at certain points she'll just stop following my lure (of the same treat that she had been following for the rest of the session), or flop over on her side once she's down and not want to get back up again.

I'm sure a lot of it is just me having to learn to recognize when her brain is getting fried and stopping before we get to that point.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> That's a good point, I'll keep that in mind. I don't know what her experience with training was before we got her.


The stress I'm talking about isn't really related to previous training experience. Learning is stressful for all dogs and they all respond to it differently. Some just have a very low tolerance for feeling stressed out or wrong, while others will keep going. It's just something you have to be aware of with your individual dog. 



> She's only actually walked off on me once, but more often (not all time but if I've been doing the same thing for a period of time) she will just stop. For example, we've been working on down, and at certain points she'll just stop following my lure (of the same treat that she had been following for the rest of the session), or flop over on her side once she's down and not want to get back up again.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of it is just me having to learn to recognize when her brain is getting fried and stopping before we get to that point.


It's possible that's stress. Or could be something completely different  Sorry, not helpful!


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## Kyllobernese

I read somewhere that when you are training and your dog keeps sitting down and starts scratching it is a sign of stress. It certainly applies to Kris. When I was doing a lot of heeling in a row with her, she would sit down and scratch when heeling and could not get her to stop. Over time she has stopped and very rarely does it. I have also seen quite a few dogs in Agility that when left at the start in a stay will start to scratch and wonder if they are also a little stressed?


----------



## elrohwen

Kyllobernese said:


> I read somewhere that when you are training and your dog keeps sitting down and starts scratching it is a sign of stress. It certainly applies to Kris. When I was doing a lot of heeling in a row with her, she would sit down and scratch when heeling and could not get her to stop. Over time she has stopped and very rarely does it. I have also seen quite a few dogs in Agility that when left at the start in a stay will start to scratch and wonder if they are also a little stressed?


Yeah, I've seen that one a lot. I went to an obedience seminar in June and lots of dogs were scratching their necks when they were introduced to new exercises or ways of doing things, or were otherwise stressed out. It seemed especially common for the dogs wearing prongs.


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## mtnrat

From a few posts back:
"The way we're doing it is to call the dog's name, then move away with a hand out and encourage them to come to you. Ask for a sit when they get to you and then reward. Is that how it's normally done? I was presuming their name was just a 'eh, I wanna say something to you' followed by a command, but maybe it's a foundational thing to just use their name at first and we'll get to the command later. She's not so great with name recognition which is mostly our fault, between the two of us we rarely use her actual name."
I work on name recognition while watching tv. For the recall I think it is important to treat when they come to you, before they sit and treat again when they sit, if that is what you want. Otherwise they are only linking the treat to the sit and not the more important recall. The faster they come the better I treat and jackpot. In rally O I just treat once for the come front with sit.


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## CptJack

So, Molly and the flyball tournament.

She did pretty danged good, if I say so myself. We went through a LOT of treats, and there was no doubt she was stressed (and refused to take food from a nice lady who offered it to her) but it wasn't bad. 

She did a little bit of warning a few dogs to back off, barked like an idiot for a while but she we played a lot of look at that and she ended up just sitting down and watching the action. We were there for about an hour, and while I hated every second of it (cool sport - bad atmosphere for my temperament) she didn't seem to mind at all. 

Much more fun was had at the lake by both of us, but I'm reasonably confident now that she'll be able to handle agility classes as more than an opportunity to counter condition.


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## CptJack

Aaargh. My neighbors have a dog that's kept outside on a chain, all day, every day. Inside at night (now), but chained out during the day. It broke it's chain while I was out playing ball with molly, charged the fence snarling and scared the crap out of Molly (and me)....

Molly charged right the heck back. Tail tucked, head down, hackles up, high pitched screaming, throwing herself at the fence. I had to physically pick her up and carry her inside. 

Yay.


----------



## Remaru

So windy season and both Remus and Hobgoblin are pretty sure the wind is actually attacking them. *head desk Took Hobgoblin out to work with him a little this morning and it was super windy, he kept spinning around and looking like "what was that?" He finally started looking at me like "why did you do that to me, what are you doing?" I finally gave up on working on heeling skills and direction commands (I don't know my left from my right anyway...sigh) his LLW is good, I was just trying to make his heel smoother. He has this way of crowding me or tripping me up getting in my space and lately I feel like we have gotten in the habit of walking with hubby and Freyja too often and I don't want him dependent on them. That was a huge flop today with the wind so we hit the park and played on the equipment instead. 

Played on some tree stumps, his balance is so much better since we have been working on body awareness! He hopped up on the park benches, climbed the "rock wall" (can't shoot right up it like magic can but he did a little anyway), ran up and down the stairs and balanced on some of little step up things. Tried a bit more walking and hit up the "little kids" park and played with the bouncy car, didn't throw him off at all. He managed to get over the wind while we were playing and work on some sit and down stays since there was no one around but by the time we were heading home the wind started hitting him hard and he got fussy again. We will just have to keep working on it because it is super windy here a good part of the year. Remus really hates it too, always acts like something is after him (he also really hates things blowing around and things that fly like birds).


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## CptJack

I really do not understand what is going on with Molly.

We went to the flyball tournament and she was fine. A little nervous at periods, briefly refused food but really mostly ignored the other dogs, took treats, watched and even played a little outside. One or two barks or growls when one got into her face, but by and large okay. Took her to PetSmart tonight to pick up a new coat for Kylie (Kylie was not with us either time) and she was really, really, consistently barking/growling at every dog she encountered there. Until we went to the parking lot, where she merrily trotted by two of the same dogs she'd been reacting to in the store, from a further distance.

Walking down the street/sidewalk/at a park? She won't blink at some dogs and will FLIP over others.

Obviously I back off, maintain distance, rewarded calm behavior but I *honestly* don't know what's setting her off. I can't even really read her body language with enough certainty to be 100% it's a fear reaction instead of just being over-excited. I'm pretty sure! But not positive. 

Meeting with the trainer can not come soon enough, because I am LOST.


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## gingerkid

I'm starting to think that some reactivity is really unrecognized resource guarding. After two years of work, Snowball is doing much better, but is still reactive around our house, around my in-laws house, and in the car - all of which are high-value places for him. He's been great in pet stores and other random locations; he will bark one or two barks if he's caught by surprise, but that's about it. When I took him for a meet-and-greet with a foster at the shelter he was totally and utterly quiet walking through the adoption floor past visitor's dogs, and in the back halls pas staff and volunteers walking dogs to/from their kennels. (Although sometime I think that may have been him on his best behavior because he was afraid I'd leave him there, haha). But around home? He's still reactive (albeit much less so than before), and the bulk of the work we've done with him is around here, so you'd think he would be less reactive around here. So.. my theory is that it is some kind of weird, mild-but-widespread resource guarding.


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## elrohwen

I shared this on the Obedience thread but wanted to share it here too. This video is from our second rally class in our new city and new facility. This was our third run of the night and the second off leash. This was the first time we've done obedience off leash outside my house and I was pretty scared, but it went better than I expected. There were some zoomies and breaks to sniff, but he came back to be quickly and was excited to keep working, which was not the case in agility last spring. And when he was working, his heeling was pretty good!


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## elrohwen

Oh, something else interesting to report from class that I think is relevent for this thread. Most of you know I've been kind of at a loss with Watson's dog-to-dog behavior recently. He used to want to play all the time, but now he has been borderline aggressive, barking at other dogs. He met my friend's JRTs in September and was actually really good, never barking or growling at them, so it's not every dog. But he's just weird and I don't trust him to be appropriate like I used to.

Last night after Rally, the instructor suggested I let him play with a 5 month old sheltie puppy. The two other women in the class are also instructors (one for puppy classes) and they all felt comfortable letting him play. He charged into the ring and barked loudly in the puppy's face for a couple minutes :headdesk: She kind of tried to play with him, then got nervous (because he was being such an a**). His barks were very loud and sort of aggressive sounding (for him) and there was some growling. He also chased her and kind of bit her in the butt. He was wiggling, and doing some play bows, but he was just so so pushy and aggressive about the play, and the more nervous she got the more over the top he got. We split them up after probably a minute and then he ran around continuing to bark until I grabbed him.

The instructors thought he was fine, just not a good match for the puppy, and they are going to bring in a better dog for him to play with next week (and no males). In a way I'm excited that people don't think he's hopeless, just an adolescent, and are happy to bring their own dogs to play with him. On the other hand, I still can't read him and don't know if I trust him. His behavior is just so different from what it used to be. I *think* he's just getting super overstimulated and needs to chill out, but I don't want him to get in trouble either. Hopefully this works out.


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## jade5280

I'm so frustrated with Ryker. I can't clip his nails, the groomers can't clip his nails, the vet can't clip his nails! I'm trying to work on desensitizing everyday, but between school, work, and Gypsy I haven't had enough time in the day. Meanwhile his nails keep growing! I can't sneak up on him anymore or when he's sleeping because the second he feels me touch his paw he is on full alert. He gets so aggressive when myself or anyone tries to hold him down, he's just way too strong.

The vet was talking about using a sedative that makes them fall asleep and then giving them a shot to wake them up. I don't know how safe this is? She said they are up and out within 15 minutes. I really wish I had done more with him when he was a puppy I didn't think that it would be so hard!!!!!


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## jade5280

*@elrohwen* that video of Watson is super impressive! Great job on all the hard work you've put into him it's really starting to show!


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## Flaming

I couldn't get up out of bed this morning and Hubby closed the bedroom door before going to work. 

When I called Manna she opened the bedroom door (impressed because I never trained it but she figured it out at a very young age, she really wanted to get attention while people were on the toilet rofl) 
and came to get me. 
Had me out of bed in less than a minute. 

We've never done the full routine before just bits and pieces, so it's awesome that she done the whole pattern on her first try. I have to give her some of my pancake this morning with her breakfast for being an awesome pup.


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## Hector4

jade5280 said:


> I'm so frustrated with Ryker. I can't clip his nails, the groomers can't clip his nails, the vet can't clip his nails! I'm trying to work on desensitizing everyday, but between school, work, and Gypsy I haven't had enough time in the day. Meanwhile his nails keep growing! I can't sneak up on him anymore or when he's sleeping because the second he feels me touch his paw he is on full alert. He gets so aggressive when myself or anyone tries to hold him down, he's just way too strong.
> 
> The vet was talking about using a sedative that makes them fall asleep and then giving them a shot to wake them up. I don't know how safe this is? She said they are up and out within 15 minutes. I really wish I had done more with him when he was a puppy I didn't think that it would be so hard!!!!!


Go to the hardware store and buy large pieces of sand paper 60 or 80 grit and duct tape it to a large piece of wood, board, etc. and teach Ryker to paw/scratch at the board to file them down. Even better if you can buy pieces of roof shingles or gritty type sheets and nail those down on your deck or stairs or somewhere they frequent to transition from indoors to outdoors. 

Take a look at my video where I started to teach Hector to scratch at the board. I only had 120 grit and I checked his nails afterwards and they did do something! There are better videos out there, but it's better when it's my dog LOL.

http://youtu.be/4h3A4Z-kQz8


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## taquitos

jade5280 said:


> I'm so frustrated with Ryker. I can't clip his nails, the groomers can't clip his nails, the vet can't clip his nails! I'm trying to work on desensitizing everyday, but between school, work, and Gypsy I haven't had enough time in the day. Meanwhile his nails keep growing! I can't sneak up on him anymore or when he's sleeping because the second he feels me touch his paw he is on full alert. He gets so aggressive when myself or anyone tries to hold him down, he's just way too strong.
> 
> The vet was talking about using a sedative that makes them fall asleep and then giving them a shot to wake them up. I don't know how safe this is? She said they are up and out within 15 minutes. I really wish I had done more with him when he was a puppy I didn't think that it would be so hard!!!!!


Hmmm have you tried the dremel? Meeko has had me clip his nails he ALWAYS hated it, no matter what. It turns out it's the pressure/sensation of the clippers pressing down on his claws.

Maybe start desensitizing him to you touching his feet, and desensitizing him to the sound of the dremel, and eventually the feeling of the dremel against his feet.

I find that my nail clipping regimen has gotten much easier now that Meeko is used to the dremel.

Good luck :/ It's one of those really difficult things to desensitize because it's fear based ugh.


----------



## Laurelin

Our new tunnel!






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFp4tQJu6-U


----------



## Flaming

taquitos said:


> Hmmm have you tried the dremel? Meeko has had me clip his nails he ALWAYS hated it, no matter what. It turns out it's the pressure/sensation of the clippers pressing down on his claws.
> 
> Maybe start desensitizing him to you touching his feet, and desensitizing him to the sound of the dremel, and eventually the feeling of the dremel against his feet.
> 
> I find that my nail clipping regimen has gotten much easier now that Meeko is used to the dremel.
> 
> Good luck :/ It's one of those really difficult things to desensitize because it's fear based ugh.


I switched to a dremel when it took 3 people to clip 1 nail on Manna. 
She doesn't like the dremel but she doesn't fight it and about a year later I can now use the nail clippers if I need to because she's use to me handling her in that way. 

The clippers might just be too much pressure and too scarey, a dremel on the other hand is usually more gentle but louder. 
Every dog is different so experimentation is key.


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## CrimsonAccent

Gingerbread:

She only went through a basic obedience class, and really could just work on proofing, even within the house. Behaviors we have a base for but aren't consistent yet-

Sit
Down
Touch (target palm of hand)
Feet desensitization/handling
Recall
Name/Watch Me/Focus
LLW dear lord LLW
Mat/go to place
Stay 

But I think the priority is going to be reactivity and getting her nails done. Her nails are bad bad bad and haven't been cut in a LONG time. Reactivity is mainly based in frustration and over-excitement I think. She can play at the dog park mostly ok (sometimes we have to pull her when she gets over-excited/too rough and tumble) but she will run up and down the fence and park forever if left unattended. And bark and lunge on leash (although this has improved a LOT).

Cupcake:

Fixing to wrap up her second obedience class (which I will be missing for work, UGH; luckily FI will take her as we both go to those classes anyway) and eligible to take the CGC. I doubt she'll pass, but good practice. And then I'll have a more solid idea on what we need to work on. I think we need to work on verbal cue recognition. She does best with cue and verbal at the same time or even just the cue. Verbal alone is very shaky. I am proud on her sit-stays and down-stays in class. Now just more proofing at home, and then the backyard, and then outside the house.

And work on her not tackling small children. This really only gets to be practiced at the dog park and she has gotten better as she slowly grows a brain. Yep.


----------



## CptJack

Oh. I meant to update this thread, but I have found a way to get her past/through other dogs without reacting. It's not treats or toys, but if I get happy/excited and run with her, she fails to care about ANYthing and is all eyes on me. So we're using that in places where distance isn't possible - like getting past the dog next door. Whatever works, right?


----------



## Remaru

Remus ignores everything if he is running, I don't like the run though. LOL He does have the command "on by" which works most of the time, not great for dogs that are actively barking at him but works for dogs that are just present and looking at him or for people so long as they aren't riding bicycles (he still reacts to bicycles). Food is only "meh" for him so it is difficult to work on (he redirects badly with play, don't want to set him up for the opposite reaction). 

Remus and Hobgoblin are not getting along. :doh: My best guess is redirected excitement from play combined with Hobgoblin hitting a stage where he doesn't take Remus's corrections well and/or Remus no longer giving Hobgoblin "puppy license". We have had 4 incidents in the past 2 days. It is all just vocal, but the body language is tense. Remus has a wide vocal range and it is clear his bark is unhappy/reactive type bark vs his communication/play bark. The last two incidents have ended in Hobgoblin being very difficult to calm, circling and barking at Remus. Even now and he doesn't want to get near to Remus (earlier today they did cuddle within half an hour of their "bickering"). I'm also mildly concerned that Remus growled at me when I sent him to his bed when he was growling at Hobs. 

Obviously I would prefer that these two get along. Crating and rotating is a possibility but it really isn't ideal for our situation. Hobgoblin is supposed to be in training to be my service dog and that means he needs to be with me most of the time. Remus does not do well locked up for extended periods of time though he would do decently as an in home service dog he isn't large enough to do any type of mobility support (not fair to him). Just things I have to keep in mind. Remus has not been neutered, I'm not usually one to pin behavior on intact status but because they are both male and one is intact and the other is neutered I do wonder if that has something to do with the issues we are seeing now.


----------



## dagwall

It's not always the case but if there are issues between intact and neutered males the neutered male is very often the source of the problem. If Remus is the one starting the trouble with Hobs it is possible he's revoking the puppy license and they may just not get along well as two adult males. Definitely control the time the spend together until you get a better idea of what's going on between them. They may just need to be kept apart a lot of the time whether you neuter Remus or not, may not help.


----------



## jade5280

Hector4 said:


> Go to the hardware store and buy large pieces of sand paper 60 or 80 grit and duct tape it to a large piece of wood, board, etc. and teach Ryker to paw/scratch at the board to file them down. Even better if you can buy pieces of roof shingles or gritty type sheets and nail those down on your deck or stairs or somewhere they frequent to transition from indoors to outdoors.
> 
> Take a look at my video where I started to teach Hector to scratch at the board. I only had 120 grit and I checked his nails afterwards and they did do something! There are better videos out there, but it's better when it's my dog LOL.
> 
> http://youtu.be/4h3A4Z[url] [/QUOTE...ipped them because I wasn't getting anywhere.


----------



## jade5280

taquitos said:


> Hmmm have you tried the dremel? Meeko has had me clip his nails he ALWAYS hated it, no matter what. It turns out it's the pressure/sensation of the clippers pressing down on his claws.
> 
> Maybe start desensitizing him to you touching his feet, and desensitizing him to the sound of the dremel, and eventually the feeling of the dremel against his feet.
> 
> I find that my nail clipping regimen has gotten much easier now that Meeko is used to the dremel.
> 
> Good luck :/ It's one of those really difficult things to desensitize because it's fear based ugh.


I did get a dremel and he's fine with me touching his feet and was fine with it on but the second I would try touching his claw he would freak out. How do you desensitize to the actually grinding?


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## dagwall

jade5280 said:


> I did get a dremel and he's fine with me touching his feet and was fine with it on but the second I would try touching his claw he would freak out. How do you desensitize to the actually grinding?


What I did with Jubel was over about a week working on it everyday at least once was start giving treats when I turned the dremel on in front of him. Not touching him just getting him used to the sound. Then I'd touch his body with the dremel being off, treat, turn it on and touch him with the base so he'd feel the vibration, treat. When he's okay with that I repeated those steps with his feet, touching feet with the base of the dremel while off, treat, turn dremel on and touch with base so he felt vibration in his feet. When he was okay with that I repeated with the actual dremel bit but VERY slowly and LOTS of treats. I'd only do one nail at a time and only very small amount of actual nail ground away, just getting him used to the feeling and associated with lots of treats. 

Once I was actually grinding his nails I slowly increased how much I actually ground away and decreased the amount of treats per nail. Eventually I increased to a treat every two nails, a treat every foot, etc. I still try and do at least a treat per foot even now almost 2 years later but I can do all four feet without treats and go get him something good when I'm done if needed. Really depends on the dog on how fast or slow this progresses but the idea is pretty much the same. Go at the speed Ryker will accept. Jubel hated nail clippers, had zero issues with me handling his feet, wasn't really bothered by the noise of the grinder so overall he was easy to acclimate.


----------



## CptJack

> Remus ignores everything if he is running, I don't like the run though. LOL He does have the command "on by" which works most of the time, not great for dogs that are actively barking at him but works for dogs that are just present and looking at him or for people so long as they aren't riding bicycles (he still reacts to bicycles). Food is only "meh" for him so it is difficult to work on (he redirects badly with play, don't want to set him up for the opposite reaction).


I think the weird thing here and reason it works with Molly is she *doesn't* ignore everything if I'm running with her (admittedly while chanting "yes yes yes good girl yes yes yes' at her), but she focuses all of her attention on me and just gets.... really happy. It's like looking up at my face bouncing and wiggling and THRILLED, OMG. Now, I may very well have a problem if I have to resort to this for every situation with other dogs around forever, because I'm just not a runner- but if I can get her past the dogs we have to pass without drama and her paying attention to me, I count it as a win. 

She'll also ignore the whole freaking world if I can get her engaged in a game before she notices things that might be scary - but once she's noticed it's over and the only thing that's going to get her through is bouncy, happy, running. I think I can eventually get her understanding what I want, though. I have a feeling that if she REALLY understands what *to* do in the face of something scary (attention on me) the rest will work out. She's crazy biddable and really, really wants to do whatever. She just... hits the point of it being too much and falls apart.


----------



## jade5280

dagwall said:


> What I did with Jubel was over about a week working on it everyday at least once was start giving treats when I turned the dremel on in front of him. Not touching him just getting him used to the sound. Then I'd touch his body with the dremel being off, treat, turn it on and touch him with the base so he'd feel the vibration, treat. When he's okay with that I repeated those steps with his feet, touching feet with the base of the dremel while off, treat, turn dremel on and touch with base so he felt vibration in his feet. When he was okay with that I repeated with the actual dremel bit but VERY slowly and LOTS of treats. I'd only do one nail at a time and only very small amount of actual nail ground away, just getting him used to the feeling and associated with lots of treats.
> 
> Once I was actually grinding his nails I slowly increased how much I actually ground away and decreased the amount of treats per nail. Eventually I increased to a treat every two nails, a treat every foot, etc. I still try and do at least a treat per foot even now almost 2 years later but I can do all four feet without treats and go get him something good when I'm done if needed. Really depends on the dog on how fast or slow this progresses but the idea is pretty much the same. Go at the speed Ryker will accept. Jubel hated nail clippers, had zero issues with me handling his feet, wasn't really bothered by the noise of the grinder so overall he was easy to acclimate.


Thank you! I never even thought about touching him with the other side of the dremel while it was on to acclimate him. I'm going to try the dremel again and hopefully we can make progress this way. How long did you do this every night? I would usually practice for about 10 min but I'm not sure if that is long enough.


----------



## Hector4

jade5280 said:


> I did teach him to dig on 60 grit sand paper but it didn't seem to be doing anything. How many times do you have them scratch it? Do you do this everyday? I filed Gypsy's nails by hand with a sandpaper file and I did that for like an hour any gave up and just clipped them because I wasn't getting anywhere.



Wow, you sure have some stubborn nails there don't you? Once he knows how that scratching the board will earn him rewards, ask for more scratches before you give him the reward. I don't know how much scratching you would need to get to the quick. I have not gotten any 60 grit to try it out yet. I would have the dog scratch it every day until he gets it down to the quick. Can you get a video?

If you join a FB group Nail Maintenance for Dogs, you will get more specific answers to your questions. I seen some really awesome black nails filed down that way.


----------



## Hector4

jade5280 said:


> I did get a dremel and he's fine with me touching his feet and was fine with it on but the second I would try touching his claw he would freak out. How do you desensitize to the actually grinding?


Here's a video that might help starting at 3:22 about dremel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuXwKqXTBsE

Desensitize him to the noise and also desensitize him to the band touching his claws at first. I would practice every night, that way you can build on your progress and make it a rewarding event every day.


----------



## jade5280

Hector4 said:


> Wow, you sure have some stubborn nails there don't you? Once he knows how that scratching the board will earn him rewards, ask for more scratches before you give him the reward. I don't know how much scratching you would need to get to the quick. I have not gotten any 60 grit to try it out yet. I would have the dog scratch it every day until he gets it down to the quick. Can you get a video?
> 
> If you join a FB group Nail Maintenance for Dogs, you will get more specific answers to your questions. I seen some really awesome black nails filed down that way.


I'll try to get a video tonight or tomorrow. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. It looked like your dog in the video had pretty thick nails so I don't see why it would work for you but not for us. Maybe they have nails of titanium or something.



Hector4 said:


> Here's a video that might help starting at 3:22 about dremel
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuXwKqXTBsE
> 
> Desensitize him to the noise and also desensitize him to the band touching his claws at first. I would practice every night, that way you can build on your progress and make it a rewarding event every day.


Thank you for the advice. The videos are really great, I'm going to try the sandpaper thing again to try to get his nails down while I desensitize to the dremel again.


----------



## dagwall

jade5280 said:


> Thank you! I never even thought about touching him with the other side of the dremel while it was on to acclimate him. I'm going to try the dremel again and hopefully we can make progress this way. How long did you do this every night? I would usually practice for about 10 min but I'm not sure if that is long enough.


I think it really just depends on the dog. If he isn't stressing out or bored with the "game" then it's fine. If he's starting to get stressed of no longer enjoying it I'd stop sooner. If he only tolerates shorter sessions you can try to do a few sessions through out the day. The key is to keep it fun and stress free for the dog, he determines how fast or slow the process goes.

ETA: I do NOT see scratching sandpaper working with Jubel's nails, they are thick and hard. I have a really high powered dremel now too. Started off with a cheap pedi-paws thing a coworker game me. Sucked at actually grinding his nails but work well for the desensitization process. Upgraded to a mini-mite dremel soon after, high powered dremel (8600 I think) when the battery crapped out on the mini-mite. Love the new high powered one and battery is doing great about a year later, about when the mini-mite completely died on me following a slow decline.


----------



## Hector4

jade5280 said:


> I'll try to get a video tonight or tomorrow. Maybe I'm just doing it wrong. It looked like your dog in the video had pretty thick nails so I don't see why it would work for you but not for us. Maybe they have nails of titanium or something.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the advice. The videos are really great, I'm going to try the sandpaper thing again to try to get his nails down while I desensitize to the dremel again.


I "think" my dog has pretty thick nails. He's 130 lb mastiff. Maybe they do have nails of steel lol. Time to upgrade to roofing shingles lol.


----------



## CrimsonAccent

So apparently Cupcake flunked two portions of the CGC. As it was dictated to me:

She failed LLW. Apparently the floor was REALLY REALLY interesting today. Last class she breezed by, but alas it was not to be tonight.

She failed the separation test. So, it's 3 minutes of us being out of sight. FI took his mom since I couldn't make it. First 2 and a half minutes are good, and then she barks once. FI comments, it's ok she can bark 3 times. Woof-woof. Woof. Jinxed her. LOL

But hey, loads better than I was expecting. So we hit those really hard, along with proofing all the other basics. Then maybe some more fun stuff. Thinking about pre-agility class in early 2015.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

^^ She will get there! Are you taking the test again? 

We had very few reactive incidences in agility classes today. Kairi gave me full attention when the other dogs were running their course. She did very well. Also, she let a complete stranger not only full on rub her back up and down (she was trying to get a good idea of a good weight for a dog), but she even let her pet her head. Kairi usually lets people touch her back/neck just fine, ignoring them. She does not enjoy her head being petted for whatever reason by strangers and will kind of duck away. She is slowly gaining confidence around people she doesn't know, and I am so happy. I'm also happy her excitement reactive issues are manageable now. I'm sure we will have bad days sometimes.. but we really have come quite a ways.


----------



## CptJack

On one hand she'll now give me her attention in the front yard, with the barking chained dog next door visible to her - and barking, of course. In fact she's good with as little as 10 feet separating them. She still kind of wants to rush at him, but is better. No barking from our front porch/yard at anything, actually.

ON THE OTHER HAND, we're really having to not let her use the backyard now because when she's back there all she wants to do is rush the fence and frantically bark at him while he strains at his leash and frantically barks at her.

Something is OFF with these two. It's not just her, either, that dog has been chained over there for years and has never batted an eyelash at my other dogs. 

I know, not necessarily general reactivity related but christ it's frustrating.


----------



## Hector4

CptJack said:


> On one hand she'll now give me her attention in the front yard, with the barking chained dog next door visible to her - and barking, of course. In fact she's good with as little as 10 feet separating them. She still kind of wants to rush at him, but is better. No barking from our front porch/yard at anything, actually.
> 
> ON THE OTHER HAND, we're really having to not let her use the backyard now because when she's back there all she wants to do is rush the fence and frantically bark at him while he strains at his leash and frantically barks at her.
> 
> Something is OFF with these two. It's not just her, either, that dog has been chained over there for years and has never batted an eyelash at my other dogs.
> 
> I know, not necessarily general reactivity related but christ it's frustrating.


Have you tried something like this for the fencing?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOOoxECek6I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wLyIkYspYc


----------



## CrimsonAccent

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> ^^ She will get there! Are you taking the test again?


Good to hear the Kairi is making progress!

Yeah, we will definitely be taking the CGC again. A nice thing about the place we go to is that once we pay for the CGC once, we can (re)take the test how ever many times we want. This might be standard for the CGC, I have no idea. But I thought it was cool  The next listed CGC evaluation is listed for Nov. 22, but I think I might pass and give it a little more time (more for me than for Cupcake).

So I had just said pre-Agility/Agility classes were next on our plate, but maybe not. FI and I were talking it over, and he was concerned about her joints since the vet said she could still be growing. I mean, it is a foundations class so I'd imagine it's more impulse control and things that wouldn't hurt her joints (she jumps and runs a lot at home and at the dog park) but I'm not in a rush. This means instead we'd be taking "Puppy Manners 3" which amounts to Advanced Obedience I believe. We basically proof tons and work on impulse control and work on generalizing (so practice in the parking lot, in the attached store, etc.). So that _really_ can't hurt. 

A CGC eval. is offered at the end of it, so we'll probably just take it then. 6 classes (once a week) for $150 isn't horrible I think.

Also something I want to do:

They offer one-off classes (that you can take mult. times) that offer different tricks. $25 for each class.

Dec. 3 they are offering two classes (semi) back to back:

Cute Tricks!: Go to sleep (play dead), head down (rest it on the ground or someone's lap), and shake/wave goodbye

Impulse Control Tricks: poisoned cookie/dogcatcher cookies (food refusal/leave it on an open palm), balance a cookie on each paw (or nose if they have this down), and It's Raining Cookies (leave cookies you drop on the floor). 

Sorry for the ramble but I'm so stoked and LOVELOVELOVE the place we go to.

So-

Two tricks classes Dec. 3. Puppy Manners 3 in late December to early January. Agility nonsense after that? Hell maybe Therapy Dog classes depending on how she matures and how she takes to the trick classes (which really sound like a set up for Therapy Dog). They also offer Nosework. Ginger would really benefit from it and one of the trainers recommended it for her. But she is not technically our dog, so I don't want to take that training opportunity away. She should go with her people, once they have a chance. 

Glad to hear that everyone is making progress 

P.S. At 68 pounds and 9 months...IS it plausible for Cupcake to be growing still? Admittedly, I always thought she looked like her legs seemed a bit short for her build, but wrote it off as "stocky BC mix thing". So her head and paws still could be grown into. Maybe.


----------



## CptJack

Hector4 said:


> Have you tried something like this for the fencing?
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOOoxECek6I
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wLyIkYspYc


Yeah. This is pretty much what we do with everything related to her reactivity, actually. We're mostly avoiding the back yard right now. I'll get out there on some nice days and do some more of it but honestly at the moment it's just safer and easier not to. The fenced in portion of our yard - the one with the dog right on our property line- is wooded, steep, and kind of dangerous. In freezing and wet weather it's just not worth it (to me) not to take her out to the front or side yards for play and potty. I'll do some on niceish days, but probably mostly just going to have to suck it up until spring.




CrimsonAccent said:


> P.S. At 68 pounds and 9 months...IS it plausible for Cupcake to be growing still? Admittedly, I always thought she looked like her legs seemed a bit short for her build, but wrote it off as "stocky BC mix thing". So her head and paws still could be grown into. Maybe.


Yes. There's no real way to know when she'll stop. It just depends on her genetics. She could be done! She could grow for more than another year. Odds are high she's going to keep filling out and stuff until she's at least 18 months - 2 though. It's just a matter of how much and if she ends up around 75lbs or ends up at more than 90.


----------



## Remaru

dagwall said:


> It's not always the case but if there are issues between intact and neutered males the neutered male is very often the source of the problem. If Remus is the one starting the trouble with Hobs it is possible he's revoking the puppy license and they may just not get along well as two adult males. Definitely control the time the spend together until you get a better idea of what's going on between them. They may just need to be kept apart a lot of the time whether you neuter Remus or not, may not help.


I am keeping an eye on them for now. They are never alone together (none of the dogs are) but in the past I've left my boys to watch the dogs while I walked one or took a shower (never very long and my kids aren't exactly little anymore at 13 and soon to be 9). It is odd for Remus to be the one causing issues, he is typically laid back at home with the other dogs. When my other dogs are rough housing he will just ignore them. It is possible Hobs is actually starting it with body language that I am missing. The first couple of times I was not in the room, hubby was and he isn't particularly keen on dog body language. The last time we were goofing around and I didn't see the start completely so it is hard to say. Remus has been a bit clingy lately and Hobs gets jealous or at least nosy.


----------



## Kyllobernese

When I drive into town, I usually take Remmy and Kiska (my two small dogs) and Kris and let them have a good run out the back of the Fairgrounds. A lot of people use it for their dogs and I always check closely to make sure there is nobody there with their dog. You can usually tell as there will be cars parked there. The other day, I looked around and nobody in sight and no cars so I let the three dogs out. We had just barely started walking when from out of nowhere a Border Collie came running from the bush. It scared Kris and she was barking and yelping like she was being killed. She stayed right with me though and the dog went up and sniffed Kiska who is only about 7 lbs. and all I could do was hope he was not aggressive, then he went over to Remmy and they both walked around stiff legged. I just turned and started walking back to the Van and called them and quickly got them loaded back up. In the far distance, I could then see a man walking who obviously was the owner. I don't know what I would have been able to do if he had been aggressive. Remmy, although he is not neutered, is not a fighter but also would have fought back if the other dog had started anything and it was obvious by their body language that the Border Collie was a male and Kiska would have only been a mouthful. Really surprised at Kris' reaction but think it was just so unexpected.


----------



## jade5280

Our cat decided tonight that she likes staying on top of the fridge now so she no longer stays upstairs. So we had a great opportunity to train Gypsy where she could see the cat but that cat wasn't running away and was safe. At first Gypsy was super excited, whining, barking, jumping. After I got out the clicker and started giving her kibble she started paying attention to me and looking away from the cat. I clicked and treated every time she looked at the cat without getting excited and when she looked at me. We did this for a while and I ended up giving her a whole extra cup off kibble as treats (whoops). I think this will be very good if the cat claims the fridge as her spot because it will help Gypsy become used to the cat being around. 

Right now the cat is still on the fridge and Gypsy is laying next to me in the living room even though she knows the cat is out!


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## ireth0

jade5280 said:


> Our cat decided tonight that she likes staying on top of the fridge now so she no longer stays upstairs. So we had a great opportunity to train Gypsy where she could see the cat but that cat wasn't running away and was safe. At first Gypsy was super excited, whining, barking, jumping. After I got out the clicker and started giving her kibble she started paying attention to me and looking away from the cat. I clicked and treated every time she looked at the cat without getting excited and when she looked at me. We did this for a while and I ended up giving her a whole extra cup off kibble as treats (whoops). I think this will be very good if the cat claims the fridge as her spot because it will help Gypsy become used to the cat being around.
> 
> Right now the cat is still on the fridge and Gypsy is laying next to me in the living room even though she knows the cat is out!


Yay! I know how great it feels when you make progress like that and have that 'maybe it -is- possible!' moment. That's really great that you've found your starting point. 

We had some great success with our cats last night as well. One was sitting on a cat tree at Luna's face level and Luna was sniffing... and when I asked if she wanted to go pee she just came with me! After about 15mins of having at least one cat in the room with very minimal issue. (She followed one cat briskly but I didn't have to physically restrain her to stop her)


----------



## jade5280

ireth0 said:


> Yay! I know how great it feels when you make progress like that and have that 'maybe it -is- possible!' moment. That's really great that you've found your starting point.
> 
> We had some great success with our cats last night as well. One was sitting on a cat tree at Luna's face level and Luna was sniffing... and when I asked if she wanted to go pee she just came with me! After about 15mins of having at least one cat in the room with very minimal issue. (She followed one cat briskly but I didn't have to physically restrain her to stop her)


That's great! I think training dogs to get along with cats can depend as much on the cat as well as the dog in some situations. I know if my cat didn't jump and run around like a flying squirrel it would be easier. At least now Gypsy can get used to the presence of the cat although it's still going to be a long time before they can even be on the floor together. I've been thinking about making a cat highway like Jackson Galaxy suggests so she can safely get from the stairs to around the kitchen high enough away from the dogs.


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## ireth0

jade5280 said:


> That's great! I think training dogs to get along with cats can depend as much on the cat as well as the dog in some situations. I know if my cat didn't jump and run around like a flying squirrel it would be easier. At least now Gypsy can get used to the presence of the cat although it's still going to be a long time before they can even be on the floor together. I've been thinking about making a cat highway like Jackson Galaxy suggests so she can safely get from the stairs to around the kitchen high enough away from the dogs.


Yea. We had gotten to the point where having them in the room while Luna was eating wasn't really training anymore... like the food was just a distraction. So now we're working on teaching both sides how to interact without treats or food. The cats are learning to just act normally and Luna's learning not to run at them because then the cats go away. 

It's been 4 months now since we brought Luna home so it's been a long road but we're finally seeing the reward for our efforts. I think they all need time together to be able to work out how to interact. Not that I'm just letting them go at it obviously, but they need to learn each other's body language so they can start to understand one another.

At one point last night a cat was on the cat tree and Luna was sitting on the couch across the room not paying attention. My brain went "Hmm, is this okay? Is she just not acknowledging the cat? Wait! That's EXACTLY WHAT I WANTED!"


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## CptJack

Molly met the chained dog next door this morning. We've been working our way that direction for a couple of weeks. Could've been a lousy idea and a disaster. Probably should have been. Horrible plan. No one else do that. 

She played with him for an hour (and played well) and I fed them both treats. (I will say the neighbor long ago told me he had no issue with us interacting with/feeding his dog. In spite of the 24/7 chained dog that makes me snarl we're on decent terms).

I can't read my dog? Because I kinda suspect now that what was happening was a whole lot of barrier frustration on both their parts. 

Doesn't explain her fearful reaction to dogs in petstores or other locations (and that is fear), but I haven't tested that out in a while so I guess we'll see.









The Dog. I think his name is Chance. And, yes, he breaks my heart as much as you'd think.


----------



## Hector4

CptJack said:


> Molly met the chained dog next door this morning. We've been working our way that direction for a couple of weeks. Could've been a lousy idea and a disaster. Probably should have been. Horrible plan. No one else do that.
> 
> She played with him for an hour (and played well) and I fed them both treats. (I will say the neighbor long ago told me he had no issue with us interacting with/feeding his dog. In spite of the 24/7 chained dog that makes me snarl we're on decent terms).
> 
> I can't read my dog? Because I kinda suspect now that what was happening was a whole lot of barrier frustration on both their parts.
> 
> Doesn't explain her fearful reaction to dogs in petstores or other locations (and that is fear), but I haven't tested that out in a while so I guess we'll see.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Dog. I think his name is Chance. And, yes, he breaks my heart as much as you'd think.


You need to add that poor dog to your pack!!! He has such a calm demeanor.


----------



## CptJack

Hector4 said:


> You need to add that poor dog to your pack!!! He has such a calm demeanor.


I've been trying for years. It's a crappy, crappy situation. The daughter (adult) lives at home and got the dog for herself. Mom and Dad are 'making a point' by not doing anything to take care of him. So he's fed, watered, tied out 24/7 unless it's crazy cold and just rots on that chain. He's an utter sweetheart and they know we want him if they decide to rehome but, like I said, it's been years. 

I take him stuffed bones and toys and my kids hang out there with him quite a bit but that dog deserves so so much more. He's a GOOD dog.

ETA:









I took a peanut-butter stuffed bone over to him. He stuck it in a hole to keep it from rolling down the hill he's stuck on. And really enjoyed it. Poor guy.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

SO much success today! Lately to work on reactive issues I've been taking Kairi to the busiest PetSmart once or twice a week to just work on training around the dogs. It has been working wonders to be exposed to them more often and being able to work from a distance and build up. It is always really busy on weekends, so we started on the less busy weekdays. I felt she was ready for a weekend day with lots of dogs and training classes going on. She did GREAT. Her focus was on me and she was able to pass dogs walking by with a simple, "Leave it". Sometimes I didn't even need to say it. 

We tried to hang around dogs that were obviously very excited to be there (as long as they weren't directing the excitement as us so we weren't a distraction) so that we could work on that as well. Now that we are doing great around a lot of excitement, we need to get even more movement in the mix to work on. One step at a time.. but I am so proud of how she is doing and our progress that we have made since the crazy, barky, overly excited reactive pup.


----------



## Hector4

CptJack said:


> I've been trying for years. It's a crappy, crappy situation. The daughter (adult) lives at home and got the dog for herself. Mom and Dad are 'making a point' by not doing anything to take care of him. So he's fed, watered, tied out 24/7 unless it's crazy cold and just rots on that chain. He's an utter sweetheart and they know we want him if they decide to rehome but, like I said, it's been years.
> 
> I take him stuffed bones and toys and my kids hang out there with him quite a bit but that dog deserves so so much more. He's a GOOD dog.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I took a peanut-butter stuffed bone over to him. He stuck it in a hole to keep it from rolling down the hill he's stuck on. And really enjoyed it. Poor guy.


Such a sad story! I'm glad you are giving him attention and love . You should buy that dog!!


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## CptJack

Hector4 said:


> Such a sad story! I'm glad you are giving him attention and love . You should buy that dog!!


I've tried, believe me. 
Meanwhile, going over and letting Molly play and giving him some attention is what I can do. Working on letting him come over to our yard to play. Maybe eventually get them to let me walk him with her. Right now, though, they aren't budging.


















And on the original topic.

I have no idea what's up with Molly. There are whole days where she reacts to NOTHING - not dogs, not cats, not people, not bikes, not rabbits or squirrels. No barking, no growling, no crazy. Today was one of those days, and we were walking around all of those things. Didn't twitch.

Other days? The wind blows wrong and a dog half a mile away barks and she loses her crap, or she spots someone down the block and starts barking and growling. Today she saw someone and turned into a wiggly puppy and wanted to MEET them. Day before yesterday she saw that same person and growled and cringed (we walked past their yard).

I just. I don't understand at all.


----------



## taquitos

CptJack, maybe it's just a puppy thing she'll grow out of? Meeko has off days like that too. Yesterday was one of those days. He got spooked by absolutely nothing last night and started barking and growling at the door even though there was no one there. Later when I took him out for a pee, he started barking at a Labradoodle on our street who he has known for the 2-3 years that we've lived here. So weird. Generally, though, he is not reactive, but he has certain days where he's much more reactive and hyper vigilant.


I've been working on getting Meeko to put his toys away. So far he's doing pretty well except I had to give him a shallower container to use since he's so short. We're having trouble with him leaving the toys in the container and picking up other toys to put away though lol. He will take the toy, put it in the container, at which point I mark and reward, and then he will pick the toy up, drop it outside, and put the toy back into the container LOL. Right now I want to keep my rate of reinforcement high, so I've been rewarding him for even that. I have an idea of how to tackle this problem but it's so funny watching him "solve" problems on his own haha.


----------



## Kyllobernese

At our Obedience practices there is a very re-active German Shepherd. Kris gets very upset by it barking and lunging at everyone. I keep her at a distance and have gradually been able to walk her closer. Last Wednesday when we lined up for the Long Down, we ended up next to the Shepherd which I did not mind. The owner stayed by the dog as it will not stay yet on its own. Partway through the dog all of a sudden got enough loose leash to walk over and sniff Kris. I was so proud of her as she just lay there and never moved. I think she is finally growing up.


----------



## CptJack

taquitos said:


> CptJack, maybe it's just a puppy thing she'll grow out of?


This is what I'm starting to think. She's still up and down and weird and can get reactive to some things consistently (that makes sense to me - running dogs, bikes, stuff she wants to chase and can't, basically), but in other things she is leveling out. Not crazy friendly OR crazy fearful/reactive at people dogs most of the time, but... more stable and predictable as it goes.

I think she's just figuring out what's worth being amped up about/by.


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## d_ray

We are struggling a lot with Jasmine's leash re-activity and it is getting worse on a daily basis. She slipped her collar a couple times and ran up to another dog. Luckily the dog was friendly. She is now on a harness, but I think knowing she was successful a couple times has made her try harder to get away. She just wants to play with every dog we walk by. It is impossible to walk her and Jewel at the same time now unless hubby comes with me. She is not reactive off leash though so it's only getting to the trails that is the issue. I am going to start LAT training and taking her out for leashed walks alone. I think having the two dogs together also causes issues as they feed off each other and Jewel will then get riled up and they will start play fighting in the middle of the street. I'm happy it's been so cold out that we barely run into other dogs. I feel like the person with the crazy dog.


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## taquitos

d_ray said:


> We are struggling a lot with Jasmine's leash re-activity and it is getting worse on a daily basis. She slipped her collar a couple times and ran up to another dog. Luckily the dog was friendly. She is now on a harness, but I think knowing she was successful a couple times has made her try harder to get away. She just wants to play with every dog we walk by. It is impossible to walk her and Jewel at the same time now unless hubby comes with me. She is not reactive off leash though so it's only getting to the trails that is the issue. I am going to start LAT training and taking her out for leashed walks alone. I think having the two dogs together also causes issues as they feed off each other and Jewel will then get riled up and they will start play fighting in the middle of the street. I'm happy it's been so cold out that we barely run into other dogs. I feel like the person with the crazy dog.


Honestly it's one of the most difficult things to deal with. Sorry you are having trouble with Jasmine!

LAT definitely has been the most effective method for me.

Would it be possible to walk them separately for now?


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## d_ray

taquitos said:


> Honestly it's one of the most difficult things to deal with. Sorry you are having trouble with Jasmine!
> 
> LAT definitely has been the most effective method for me.
> 
> Would it be possible to walk them separately for now?


Thanks. It doesn't stress me out as much as it does my hubby. It's so friggin cold right now that it's hard enough to get out once lol. But this will be the plan once it warms up a bit. Luckily the majority of our walking is off leash and we live a block from the trails. I'm going to work on lat and hope that it gets better with age.


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## jade5280

I was able to keep Gypsy's attention on me today while the cat was in the same room! However, I did need to get SO to remove the cat after because I was running out of cheese lol. She still freaks out chases the cat, but she is responding better. I think with time it's only going to get easier.


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## gingerkid

d_ray said:


> Thanks. It doesn't stress me out as much as it does my hubby. It's so friggin cold right now that it's hard enough to get out once lol. But this will be the plan once it warms up a bit. Luckily the majority of our walking is off leash and we live a block from the trails. I'm going to work on lat and hope that it gets better with age.


It'll get better with time and work too.


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## taquitos

jade5280 said:


> I was able to keep Gypsy's attention on me today while the cat was in the same room! However, I did need to get SO to remove the cat after because I was running out of cheese lol. She still freaks out chases the cat, but she is responding better. I think with time it's only going to get easier.


You can do it!!

For months Meeko chased one of my cats... no not the other two, just my black cat, Cha Cha, who is very nonconfrontational lol. Luckily for me Meeko is smaller than all of our cats so he wasn't really a danger to them... but yeah, the point I'm trying to make is that it sometimes takes forever to get a dog used to cats!


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## ireth0

jade5280 said:


> I was able to keep Gypsy's attention on me today while the cat was in the same room! However, I did need to get SO to remove the cat after because I was running out of cheese lol. She still freaks out chases the cat, but she is responding better. I think with time it's only going to get easier.


Yay! That's so awesome! I remember the first time we had both in the room without incident and it was a great feeling. And yes, we used cheese too.


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## CptJack

And then we took Molly to Lowes with us to look at refrigerators and some jerk of a dog lost its crap at her and now she's reacting hard at every dog she sees.

Agility tomorrow night's gonna be fun. I'm taking it as an opportunity to counter condition but I am so tempted to back out. 

This is going to be so bad.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack said:


> And then we took Molly to Lowes with us to look at refrigerators and some jerk of a dog lost its crap at her and now she's reacting hard at every dog she sees.
> 
> Agility tomorrow night's gonna be fun. I'm taking it as an opportunity to counter condition but I am so tempted to back out.
> 
> This is going to be so bad.


Kairi's reactivity only gets worse when we aren't in classes. I feel like I wouldn't have had the problem at all (or nearly as bad) if I continued with obedience classes when it started in the first place. That being said.. agility classes are usually filled with other reactive and high octane dogs. You can definitely use it as a time to work at it but it can be a big pain in the butt. If I could go back I would have gone to basic obedience and worked with it then and there before going on to agility. It DID get much better though even in agility class. You just have to be very on guard.. but also relaxed so that they don't feed off of the anxiousness you as the owner have about it. You definitely have to know your dog, but mine personally needs to be around the dogs often to get over it.


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## CptJack

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Kairi's reactivity only gets worse when we aren't in classes. I feel like I wouldn't have had the problem at all (or nearly as bad) if I continued with obedience classes when it started in the first place. That being said.. agility classes are usually filled with other reactive and high octane dogs. You can definitely use it as a time to work at it but it can be a big pain in the butt. If I could go back I would have gone to basic obedience and worked with it then and there before going on to agility. It DID get much better though even in agility class. You just have to be very on guard.. but also relaxed so that they don't feed off of the anxiousness you as the owner have about it. You definitely have to know your dog, but mine personally needs to be around the dogs often to get over it.


Yep. Knowing she needs to be around other dogs is why I'm doing it anyway - well that and the fact that I know she's not likely to be the worst dog to have been in those classes and the fact that it's a foundations class means it's basically going to be a bunch of low key stuff with a clicker and 1/3 - 1/2 the class will drop out after the first two sessions. It'll be okay. I'm just used to having the perfect little star of the show, not the class disaster and my pride is not looking forward to it. 

Also helps that I know the instructor and vice versa so I'll have the freedom and leeway to do what I need to do, with coming and going and creating distance. I'll also have her support in "GIVE THAT DOG SPACE" re: both herself and what she enforces with the other students. Honestly, it's a perfect environment to do this. Or as near to perfect as it gets.


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## CptJack

Oh and to be clear here: Since I am so casual about my love of agility - and by that I mean it's a fun game and I like playing with my dogs but I'm not highly competitive and am apathetic about competing to me at all, I don't care if she doesn't do well in the class or never goes any further. All I really want is for her to have the experience of having been there and to learn to focus. 

Anything else we learn AFTER.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack said:


> Yep. Knowing she needs to be around other dogs is why I'm doing it anyway - well that and the fact that I know she's not likely to be the worst dog to have been in those classes and the fact that it's a foundations class means it's basically going to be a bunch of low key stuff with a clicker and 1/3 - 1/2 the class will drop out after the first two sessions. It'll be okay. I'm just used to having the perfect little star of the show, not the class disaster and my pride is not looking forward to it.
> 
> Also helps that I know the instructor and vice versa so I'll have the freedom and leeway to do what I need to do, with coming and going and creating distance. I'll also have her support in "GIVE THAT DOG SPACE" re: both herself and what she enforces with the other students. Honestly, it's a perfect environment to do this. Or as near to perfect as it gets.


It sounds like you have the perfect kind of class and instructor to work on it!


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## CptJack

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> It sounds like you have the perfect kind of class and instructor to work on it!


Yeah. I mean if tonight's anything to go by, we're not going to be doing a whole lot of *AGILITY*, but she was pretty cool with us sitting in the corner and um. Doing nothing in particular. And in fairness Molly wasn't awful, overall. 

Though I have confirmation that she's sending reallllly mixed signals when she's reacting. Like the instructor even doesn't have a clue what to make of the REASON, and she's not exactly a novice.


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## Kyllobernese

I have been working on Kris' reactivity towards other dogs all this year. She has been going to Obedience two or three times a week with a small bunch of people working on their Obedience, most of them far more advanced than she is. A lot of that has been just lying down and staying while dogs are working around her, going over jumps for Open Obedience, etc. She turned two years old on Dec. 24th and I think has finally grown up. She used to lunge at strange dog barking at them, not to fight but wanted to play yet at the same time I think she was a little scared by them. Off leash, she ignores other dogs. I can run her over the Agility equipment off leash with other dogs around and she never runs up to them or leaves me. I can truthfully say I have never had to work so hard on a dog before. Her Obedience is good, she could pass her CD Degree and does have her CGN (same as American CGC) with no problems. I am hoping to compete in Rally this year.


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## CptJack

Yeah, Molly's obedience is really good - especially for an 8 month old puppy. And in fairness when I say I don't know what the deal is, it's definitely an on leash thing. She has given this same lunging, barking, growling, response to these dogs that she had to some other strange dogs she's met on leash but plays and plays WELL with off leash. I just don't know if it's pure frustration or if she's fearful and feels she can't retreat because she's leashed and is trying to scare them off or thinks the best defense is a good offense or what. 

Either way, I can't really work her with those dogs off leash, not in good conscious or safety because it's a foundations class and frankly put some of the dogs in that class would eat her for lunch, even if she just wanted to play. And it's something that needs worked on, anyway. 

I just feel bad for the instructor (I don't know why... I paid to be there) and the class (I don't know why that, either, she is actually less disruptive than some of the others because of how tightly she's managed and she's out of the way). I don't actually even care that much about agility with her right now. I just want her to get a grip, and wish I understood what was going on inside her brain.

I should add, I think, that while there were periods that she was reacting, for the most part she wasn't. Oh, it took management from me, but she was able to perform commands, take treats, and chill out. So there's that.


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## kadylady

Skye decided she was going to bark at some of the dogs that were getting ready to come into my class that other night while I was taking her outside for a quick potty. We handled it (ie I picked her and carried her to the potty area, she did her business then walked in the building just fine without barking at anyone, came out in the next class and did demos just fine). But it freaked me out a little because that's very new to me, I haven't had barkers before! And I have this problem where I am expecting myself to do EVERYTHING perfectly right with this puppy and this irrational fear that I'm going to some how ruin her, even though she's been about as close to perfect as possible for a puppy. *I'm working on that mental issue* But I did promptly message my instructor (who is also a close friend now) freaking out about it. She basically told me to take a chill pill (she is used to my random puppy freak outs by now) and reassured me that we worked through it fine and that I still haven't ruined my puppy (*yet*). We are going to visit an agility trial on Saturday afternoon and she promised to hold my hand through Skye's first agility trial experience.  I'm excited to get her to a trial, but not gonna lie I'm a bit nervous as well.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> And I have this problem where I am expecting myself to do EVERYTHING perfectly right with this puppy and this irrational fear that I'm going to some how ruin her, even though she's been about as close to perfect as possible for a puppy. *I'm working on that mental issue*


The way I see it, no puppy or dog is perfect. It's not like puppies are actually born as clean slates just waiting for us to mess them up. They all have things they excel at and things they will struggle with, and all we can do is accept those things and either manage them or actively train.

At this point, I don't really think of any of my dog's failings or issues as something I caused. Could he be better if I was a better trainer? Sure. Could he be better if I had been ale to predict these things and work in a perfectly ideal environment for him from puppyhood? Sure. But did I do everything I feasibly could with the skills and resources I had available? Yes, I did. So I'm not going to beat myself up that he sucks at focusing off leash or that he dislikes intact male dogs. Not that I don't get frustrated at those things, but I don't blame myself any more. All I can do is decide that I don't care about those things, or work out a plan to fix them.

I think people take way too much credit for their dogs' successes *and* failures and don't give enough credit to the dog for having his own personality and will.

I guess what I'm saying is to go easy on yourself. She will be what she will be, and your job is just to try and make her the best version of herself that you can. You've raised two great dogs so far!


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> The way I see it, no puppy or dog is perfect. It's not like puppies are actually born as clean slates just waiting for us to mess them up. They all have things they excel at and things they will struggle with, and all we can do is accept those things and either manage them or actively train.
> 
> At this point, I don't really think of any of my dog's failings or issues as something I caused. Could he be better if I was a better trainer? Sure. Could he be better if I had been ale to predict these things and work in a perfectly ideal environment for him from puppyhood? Sure. But did I do everything I feasibly could with the skills and resources I had available? Yes, I did. So I'm not going to beat myself up that he sucks at focusing off leash or that he dislikes intact male dogs. Not that I don't get frustrated at those things, but I don't blame myself any more. All I can do is decide that I don't care about those things, or work out a plan to fix them.


Everything you said makes sense and I totally agree. I mean, I don't get hung up at all on the fact that Zoey is fearful of strangers, even when it limits our abilities to do certain things. We just modify and move on. I think what is different about Skye in my head is that she is the first puppy I have gotten with such a definite purpose. I got her to be my next competitive agility dog, I picked her specifically for that reason. And for some reason it's a little terrifying! Obviously if agility doesn't work out I will still love her just the same and we will find something else to do together, no questions asked. But just the idea that I picked THIS puppy to do THIS thing with...feels like pressure. Luke and Zoey I got because I wanted a dog and then another dog and then I ended up doing stuff with them and we liked it so we keep doing it. No pressure. It's just a little different mentally for me and I have to just take that pressure off myself. 



elrohwen said:


> I think people take way too much credit for their dogs' successes *and* failures and don't give enough credit to the dog for having his own personality and will.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is to go easy on yourself. She will be what she will be, and your job is just to try and *make her the best version of herself that you can*. You've raised two great dogs so far!


I like this ^^. I'm going to use that as a reminder. And thank you. I keep telling myself that as well.

ETA: Side note I don't believe that the extra pressure I am putting on myself is effecting her in any negative type of way (because that question did cross my mind). If anything she's getting more because of it because I am like hyper aware of everything she does and why she does it and what it means and how should it affect our training, what should we increase or decrease, what does she need to see more of, ect ect. Example, I had a minor freak out over her first couple days of screaming in the crate, enter crate games, we play crate games out the wahzoo and she is now becoming a crate games super star. Now we just need to play more games with seeing other dogs come and go.


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## elrohwen

I do know how you feel. I've put a lot of pressure on myself about Watson at times. At first I Wanted a pet, then I wanted to dabble in sports, then I ended up with the show quality puppy and thought I had to put performance titles on him. I looked around and saw other people in our classes getting titles easily at 18 months and thought "What the heck am I doing wrong? My puppy is a mess". He's still a little bit of a mess, but that's ok. I've realized he's not an easy dog in some ways (very slooowww maturity is a big part of that, which neither of us can help) and I'm a new trainer and I shouldn't beat myself up. Not that I don't beat myself up at times, but I try really hard not to.

Lately I've been kind of upset that he hates intact males so much and has become reactive about it. He's still manageable most of the time (like in large groups of dogs), and if he barks at one specific dog out on walks, so what? It makes me sad that it limits play dates since I know some great dogs who are intact and he hates them, but oh well. He's been to shows with intact dogs all over the place since he was small, so what else could I have done? Sometimes hormones win.

There are also things I did exactly right, like off leash stuff, and it's still a problem. Everybody will tell you what to do to have the perfect off leash dog (or perfect anything dog), but you can do those things and have a dog who is still a wild card. Sometimes those things only work because the dog was naturally inclined towards it anyway. It's just hard to hear "Well, *I* had my puppy off leash all the time and worked on recall daily and that's why he/she is perfect." Oh yeah, I did that too and my dog is not perfect. Oh well. We'll keep working.


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## CptJack

Honestly, I agree all around and kind of relate. 

Except not so much with the agility thing - I didn't get her to do agility, I got her BECAUSE I do agility already and have access to it- and there is definitely freedom in me shrugging and not caring if she never hacks it as an agility dog. The issue is more that I can not get out of my head what I KNOW people are thinking when they see her acting like a lunatic in classes and in public. Which is, of course, that she's unsocialized and untrained and I just suck, suck, suck.

Basically my emotional response to this is a matter of my pride and a kind of reactivity of my own.

Strangely, I didn't have these issues when Thud was being a pully dork, or Kylie was being a shy one. Molly lunging and barking and growling her head off in agility class where I've always been the star pupil, and a class filled with experienced agility people is kind of stinging. I'll get over it but gah.


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## kadylady

This seems relevant....popped up on Susan Garrett's facebook page an hour or so ago with the text 

"Don't get lost by comparing yourself to others. Discover your own unique gifts and let them shine!"


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## Laurelin

I try to catch myself with Hank and not worry too much about will he or will he not be a good agility dog. It is weird getting your first dog with sports in mind. But we (me included) need to remember they're just dogs and it's not fair to dump so many hopes and anxieties and dreams on them. I get it though. I bet I spent the first 2 months overanalyzing Hank to a ridiculous extent. Omg he's slightly butt high and yada yada.

Eventually you've just got to breathe and realize he's a dog. He's probably going to be fine.


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## elrohwen

I've had people see my dog and think he's untrained and that I'm not a competent trainer. It's been a little hard on my confidence, considering he's the first dog I've owned as an adult and the first I've tried to train beyond being a good pet. I know people are thinking it because I've had multiple trainers say it to my face, usually in some form of "he walks all over you, he certainly knows he can get away with things with mom." He's just a wild child and it's basically impossible to make him do anything he doesn't feel like doing and it's not easy to convince him to do it the way you want sometimes.

I think casual pet owners are actually way more forgiving because they come up to me and compliment his behavior while telling me how much worse their own dog is. It's the dog people with well behaved dogs who have all the opinions.

And then I hand them the leash and they struggle and struggle and have even more issues than I had. And then I laugh evily inside my head while trying not to say "I told you so". Most professional trainers who have actually taken his leash will admit that he's not as easy as they thought, but by then I've had to deal with the mild condescension long enough.

It gets very frustrating to be talked down to, no matter how nicely people try to do it. And to know that they are judging. I like to think that they aren't, but obviously some of them are based on their comments. So CptJack, I totally sympathize with being apprehensive about agility class with Molly.


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## ireth0

We start Copy dog class this weekend. Last weekend was the first class- no dogs just handlers. I have to have 3 copyable cues on verbal only ideally for this Saturday and umm... yea. Basically we're polishing up 'go to bed' which she mostly knows verbal only, we're just refining it by practicing from different locations in relation to the mat. 

Other than that I'm having to teach 2 brand new commands and get them to verbal only. First one I chose was touch, which for me means touching an object (Tupperware container) with her paw. So far she is doing pretty well with this one, not perfect by any means but she's progressing well. I'm confident she'll get it before long.

Second is backup, which isn't going as well as I had hoped. I think I just need to be more refined with my marking. She backs up, but sometimes she pops her front end up instead, and/or sits at the end of the backup. We're working between the couch and coffee table so she has no choice but to go the direction I want, and I'm walking into her (She's not a dog that will move just because you walk into her space) with hands out in front of her face.

I've been alternating training these and nosework training days, because I didn't want to burn her out and negatively impact one or the other, but I think I might double up on backup training to try and get it more solid. 

Copy class is just for fun and I'm not super concerned about her getting the commands perfectly, but I'm also worried I'll be the only one with a dog who doesn't have 3 commands for class.:redface:


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## CptJack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGODurRfVv4 also very relevant to this thread right now.


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## kadylady

CptJack said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGODurRfVv4 also very relevant to this thread right now.


That needed a tear jerker warning!


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## CptJack

kadylady said:


> That needed a tear jerker warning!


I totally cried when I watched that.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack - Beautiful video and a great reminder to help our dogs be who they are and not always what we think we want them to be. I also may have teared..
Also, sorry about the suck reactivity issues with Molly in class. I really do have sympathy and I wish I could say it gets easier. It sometimes does and sometimes just doesn't. Even though Kairi is very manageable now, I still have to manage her. I don't know if she will ever be at a point where I don't have to micromanage. I'm going back to my obedience instructor in Feb so hopefully I will have some tips to share. 

kadylady - I don't want to scare you about Skye or anything (because it will be just fine!) but the barking is exactly how Kairi's reactivity started as a pup. Definitely keep her in obedience classes of sorts and work on it.


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## Laurelin

Oh I saw that video a while back. Definitely a tearjerker!

I feel similarly about Mia's health problems. We tried doing a papillon only walk on a 70 degree day recently and she struggled so much. It's hard when things just don't go the way you want and hope them to. But I know everyone here loves their dogs so much and will get through it and appreciate their dogs for what they are. My little broken papillon is still the best darn dog I've ever had. Even if she can't do much at all these days beyond hang out in the house.


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## kadylady

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> kadylady - I don't want to scare you about Skye or anything (because it will be just fine!) but the barking is exactly how Kairi's reactivity started as a pup. Definitely keep her in obedience classes of sorts and work on it.


Don't worry about scaring me...my mind has already gone to worst case scenario and back. Hence my freak out message to my instructor  Exposure and keeping her out in the world will be the easy part for us. She will be in classes at least 3-4 days a week for the foreseeable future as I teach classes in the evenings, plus have access to attend co-trainers classes on nights when I'm not teaching. Plus, starting this weekend, she will be at trials hopefully at least twice a month. So the exposure thing is easy. Its trusting myself to know how to appropriately handle any situations that arise. That's the hard part.


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## Laurelin

IMO just breathe and don't make a big deal of a little slip up. I think dog people tend to over analyze issues then the dog can often pick up on our worried and react more. Don't put too much pressure on it to be perfect. 

And if you're struggling (we all do) just go do something fun and totally no pressure with your dog. 

Remember it's not ALL about training and being at a certain level by a certain age. 

IMO if you only have time to either train your dog or play with your dog then play with your dog.


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## Laurelin

On the Hank training front he's been doing very well. We've basically done nothing this whole month at least formally. We had one class and seminar first week of January then are on a break till February. Feb we start back up agility, go to 2 ring rentals, go to a barn hunt thing, and maybe a lure course.

So we're enjoying our downtime and just walking and playing at home and hiking. We have done some (maybe 10 sessions this month?) of front yard agility. I've started some 2x2 work since Hank is now 13ish months. Just the first set of 2x2s and working finding the entrance. He's getting it very fast! It works much much better with a toy motivated dog.

He did very good at the trial last weekend (spectating). No real reactivity issues- I think he screeched once at a dog, some pulling and excitability but he settled down. He was great with all the people and the crowded area. I got a lot of compliments on how much better he was doing as far as focus goes. 

On walks my main goal is practicing dropping the leash and also getting him to turn back in to me when I say his name. Squirrels are a HUGE distraction at this point. Like lose your mind and flip out kind of deal.


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## kadylady

Laurelin said:


> IMO just breathe and don't make a big deal of a little slip up. I think dog people tend to over analyze issues then the dog can often pick up on our worried and react more. Don't put too much pressure on it to be perfect.
> 
> And if you're struggling (we all do) just go do something fun and totally no pressure with your dog.
> 
> Remember it's not ALL about training and being at a certain level by a certain age.
> 
> IMO if you only have time to either train your dog or play with your dog then play with your dog.


Yes, I will say I think I am doing much better about just playing with this puppy and not worrying so much about what commands she knows. With Luke and Zoey I kind of squashed some drive and fun in order to have "obedient" dogs. With Skye I'm less concerned with her jumping and excitement and things like that and more focused on her seeing the world and enjoying it. And it's started to translate over to the other 2 as well, we are doing more play in between sessions and doing more trick training stuff and I like the difference it's making. I also have to keep reminding myself that since Skye loves to tug I have that "tool" to use if things get a little squirrely. That's a new tool to me, one that I'm liking so far.


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## CptJack

kadylady said:


> Yes, I will say I think I am doing much better about just playing with this puppy and not worrying so much about what commands she knows. With Luke and Zoey I kind of squashed some drive and fun in order to have "obedient" dogs. With Skye I'm less concerned with her jumping and excitement and things like that and more focused on her seeing the world and enjoying it. And it's started to translate over to the other 2 as well, we are doing more play in between sessions and doing more trick training stuff and I like the difference it's making. I also have to keep reminding myself that since Skye loves to tug I have that "tool" to use if things get a little squirrely. That's a new tool to me, one that I'm liking so far.


Oh man. I KILLED Kylie's drive for play by being overly concerned with teaching commands and going for perfection. She's fairly soft, she gets frustrated easily and I just killed it. Working with Molly and play I'm seeing that come back pretty rapidly. I mean I'm also seeing Thud's drive go over the top sometimes when around Molly and playing (working) with her, which is kind of a pain in the butt, but seeing it come back in Kylie and Kylie playing more and wanting to do and go and play again is the best thing ever. Also tug. God I love tug as a reward and motivator. Kylie won't tug at all but for Molly it's just great.

In other news, had some chatting with my agility instructor via email and my issues about guilt of sitting in the class with Molly but not really participating with the class are gone. She truly does not care. I think this attitude I have that I'm the worst she's ever seen has been quashed. Lady's been doing and teaching agility for a long time. She's seen it all. Molly is the worst *I* have ever dealt with in this setting, she's clearly not the worst ever. 

Though she did point out that Molly would probably be happier if I let her participate in some of the exercises during the points she is under threshold. Not WITH the other dogs or off leash, but that I should loosen up my fearful choke hold on her. ...I do that to my dogs a lot. It's a thing.


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## kadylady

CptJack said:


> Oh man. I KILLED Kylie's drive for play by being overly concerned with teaching commands and going for perfection. She's fairly soft, she gets frustrated easily and I just killed it. Working with Molly and play I'm seeing that come back pretty rapidly. I mean I'm also seeing Thud's drive go over the top sometimes when around Molly and playing (working) with her, which is kind of a pain in the butt, but seeing it come back in Kylie and Kylie playing more and wanting to do and go and play again is the best thing ever. Also tug. God I love tug as a reward and motivator. Kylie won't tug at all but for Molly it's just great.


Um.... Zoey = Kylie and Skye = Molly lol

I have had to work SOOSOOOOSOOSOSO hard to bring that drive back out in Zoey and show her she doesn't have to be so serious about work. If I can get her playing and tugging for a couple SECONDS at class or a trial I am over the moon!! Skye...she will tug and play anywhere, with anyone (so far). And I am finding that unbelievably helpful in training and just life in general. 

Zoey actually jumped up on on a lady that she has never really met before when we got to agility class last night. We've seen the lady in classes before but Zoey's never actually met her. She came in the building all happy and excited, I let her run over to see my friend who was already there and chatting with this lady, she said hello to our friend (who I call her Auntie because we hang out so often) and then turns and jumps up on this lady to say hello!!! Let's her pet her and everything!! I was like......pick up jaw off ground! The lady was like "is this the same dog who've always had?" and I was like uh yeah, you probably just didn't recognize her being so confident!! It was fabulous.


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## CptJack

kadylady said:


> Um.... Zoey = Kylie and Skye = Molly lol


REALLY sounds like it! Molly will actually tug and play anywhere, even in the midst of that class when she wasn't busy lunging and barking, she was okay playing with me. Go figure! But yeah, it's a nice outlet to have in my pocket. 

Kylie's play drive is coming back with fetch and stuffed toys and squeaky animals and I'm thrilled to pieces every time I see her getting excited to play. It's also definitely changing her interactions with people. She spent 4 of the 6 months of agility classes not letting anyone feed or touch her. By the last one she was following people around and mugging for food, but 6 months beyond that she's going to work with my husband or wandering into the training facility and bouncing up at the instructor and begging for food from strangers. That sounds horrible but no. It's her coming back to life and it's wonderful. 

Done some pretty nice things for her playing agility too, but that's pretty secondary!

Lessons learned along the way, I guess, and thank goodness for border collie thing puppies.


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## CptJack

I'm updating here rather than the agility thread since, let's be real, what we're actually working on isn't agility.

This week was MUCH better than last week. There was some craziness getting into and out of the building, there were a couple of points that she briefly lost it, but overall I'm pretty happy. She played some engaged, enthusiastic tug with me, seemed to figure out that I was looking for her to stick close and keep her eyes on me, and actually managed some of the course material (get outs, paw targeting/perching). At a couple of points we were maybe 10ft from the bulk of the class and she was okay. She did okay watching most of the other dogs run recalls and to targets and was just much easier to deal with. 

I've gotten better at seeing what's setting her off (other dogs staring at her, really) and preventing it before it happens. I still won't let her do anything that requires she be left off leash or her leash dropped in class, but I think I am going to work with a longer leash moving forward and I do intend to do some of the work that happens inside short fences later on in class, unless she backslides. She is about 500% better when she's WORKING and engaged and learning (learning rather than performing what she knows seems to be huge) then when I'm asking her to just stand around with me and ignore other dogs. (No surprise there).

But basically, I'm feeling better about things in general. And tired. God I'm tired.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> She is about 500% better when she's WORKING and engaged and learning (learning rather than performing what she knows seems to be huge) then when I'm asking her to just stand around with me and ignore other dogs. (No surprise there).
> 
> But basically, I'm feeling better about things in general. And tired. God I'm tired.


Yeah, this is my problem with Watson. He's not reactive in the slightest if he's working, but that means I have to be on all the time. He's so much better in classes once we're there for a couple minutes, and he'll actually chill out without my input, but on walks I have to engage him every time a dog walks past. It's exhausting.


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## CptJack

I am definitely walking out of those classes with a splitting headache, starved, and as ready for a nap as she is, but I'm glad I'm doing it. I did have a couple of moments where I got frustrated with the in class assistant who just seemed to think the right thing to do was ignore us entirely and I had to go grab my own equipment (with the reactive dog), but she apologized for that in the end so should help in the future. 

I guess we'll just see where it goes, but I'm REALLY glad Kylie isn't taking a class the same day right now. I don't have the mental stamina when I'm finished with Molly to do crap.


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## Flaming

So Vitae isn't fit for training classes.

Would anyone recommend fenzi for the basics? She's driving me insane


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## elrohwen

Flaming said:


> So Vitae isn't fit for training classes.
> 
> Would anyone recommend fenzi for the basics? She's driving me insane


Why isn't she suitable for classes? Your siggy says she's 3 months old - I can't imagine any 3 month old puppy somehow being too crazy for a class.

But I would definitely recommend Fenzi classes. I think they have a puppy raising class this term, and in the next term or two they have a basics class that would be good for a young dog.


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## Flaming

elrohwen said:


> Why isn't she suitable for classes? Your siggy says she's 3 months old - I can't imagine any 3 month old puppy somehow being too crazy for a class.
> 
> But I would definitely recommend Fenzi classes. I think they have a puppy raising class this term, and in the next term or two they have a basics class that would be good for a young dog.


eh, mostly because of the classes offered here. 

She's a hyper large breed puppy. She already weighs more than the other adults in the class and most of the classes are gear towards sm/xs adult dogs. We done the classes with Manna as a pup but it wasn't that enjoyable or helpful.


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## CptJack

So, not about Molly and reactivity, but.

KYLIE TUGGED WITH ME TODAY! OUTSIDE! I mean she was tugging on a stuffed animal and she gets sick of stuffies/toys pretty fast, but I am DELIGHTED. If what it takes to get her playing in agility, eventually, is a constant rotation of small stuffed animals we can do that!


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## Flaming

Vitae actually knows her name now! 

I know not a huge thing but OMG for her this is huge!



-I also know that I'm not supposed to compare her to Manna as a puppy, but Manna was a million times easier to train-


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## CptJack

Class tonight was actually really good. First part of class she was successfully IN the ring with the other dogs (like standing in the circle with them), either at a nice heel position or front, kept her eyes on me and did really, really well with only minimal reminders. Then the BC who's made her uncomfortable from go attacked the GSD beside her and well. She had a meltdown for a little bit. She managed to recover pretty well, did a little bit of directional flat work when it was her turn (was behind a fence) and a little bit of targeting stuff (also behind a fence). Didn't do either one particularly well, but in a typical distracted puppy I want to sniff things and look at things way rather than anything more.

After that the other dogs ran recalls and we went into the chainlink 'kennel' where some of the equipment is stored. We played fetch. Seriously, two dogs running recalls parallel to her, maybe 6 feet away at some points and she just - played ball. Stopped to look once or twice but mostly played until she was tired, did a little bit more obedience work - and then snuggled up in my lap and casually watched them.

Left without any incident, carrying her stuffed bunny all the way to the car. I will say she was REALLY glad to get out of there when class was over, but she did all right.

I don't know how well this is being generalized right now - we need to get out and put it to work in the real world more than we've had a chance to until now - but frankly the speed at which she is figuring out that the other dogs are IRRELEVANT and I want her to pay attention to and play with me is pretty reassuring. I am realizing that tug works way, way better for her as a reward in this kind of environment than food. I don't think it's that it's higher value necessarily, I think that it gives her an outlet for nervous/frustrated energy.

3 weeks down, 4 to go. I'm pretty happy with where she's at/how far she's come and I'm really proud of her, but I also think I'm not actually going to attempt any real agility with her for probably another year if at all. I think I COULD do it next session, but what's that saying? Just because you can doesn't mean you should? We'll see.


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## jade5280

I've given up on trying to train Gypsy to not be reactive. I'm okay with it. We're just going to manage it instead. It won't be as much of a pain once we move out of down town. At least I won't have to drive somewhere to take her on walks. I've changed Gypsy's vet to a much quieter vet that is more familiar with reactive dogs.


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## CptJack

jade5280 said:


> I've given up on trying to train Gypsy to not be reactive. I'm okay with it. We're just going to manage it instead. It won't be as much of a pain once we move out of down town. At least I won't have to drive somewhere to take her on walks. I've changed Gypsy's vet to a much quieter vet that is more familiar with reactive dogs.


I honestly don't blame you. 

The reason I'm kind of iffy about continuing agility with her is two fold. 

The first is .... I'm actually kind of finding agility a little bit boring right now, even with Kylie. Oh, the dogs and I have fun when we do it but... we're spending 6 hours in a car for an hour and a half of agility a week. Max, since an hour of that right now is Molly doing nothing but learning to deal with other dogs around. Kylie, meanwhile, likes it but likes it no more or less than going to the park and chasing things, or going for a swim, or learning how to do silly tricks. Then there's the gas money + class fees. 

Molly, in particular... She's doing okay? With the reactivity, I mean, but I find myself spending a lot of time wondering what I'm trying to accomplish, exactly, and why. Weirdly, if she were WORSE, I'd question myself less. If she were truly uncomfortable and life were being limited by it, I'd be more inclined to work on it with more intensity and get through it, but this is ONLY an issue when it comes to agility, and even then it's mostly a matter of separation from the class and being unfocused (like her lack of performance last night wasn't because other dogs, it was because the bucket she was being asked to circle was new and she wanted to sniff it - and she's EIGHT MONTHS OLD). 

She is absolutely rock solid in parks, on trails, in petstores and everywhere else. This isn't something that impacts her daily life. She isn't uncomfortable in her daily life. 

So it's like. I'm spending 3 hours (and the cost of the class) driving to spend an hour sitting in a barn filled with other dogs so she can play fetch. For what? So she can do agility? I'm not sure I care that much. I'm not sure *I* like agility that much, especially when I get none of the social interaction from it with her separated and private lessons. I think she might love it if she got to the fun stuff and equipment, but she's never experienced that. She has things she loves that don't require this. She's A PUPPY. 

I dunno. At this point I kind of just want to do casual agility once in a while with Kylie (if I feel like it), and otherwise play with my puppy. Freeing up that 7.5 hours a week would buy them a lot of time for hikes, walks, swims, beaches, woods, and ball games. Freeing up that 200.00/month would sure as heck keep them in toys.

Honestly, the social aspects and fact that it gives me time to be around other dog people and dedicated time to train the dog in a concrete direction is about ALL I'm getting out of it at this point or would miss. And I'm kind of not getting any of the socialization for myself NOW.


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## elrohwen

CptJack, it's always a valid strategy to quit training for a sport and come back to it 6-12 months later. I've done that with Watson multiple times in different sports and each time he's come back much stronger and more focused that when I quit (except agility, which we haven't re-started). 

If I were in your shoes and driving that far to agility, I think I would pull Molly out and just play with stuff at home for a while until she's more mature. Can you do a non-agility training class closer to your house? If it's just an issue with working around other dogs, you can work on that in a class that isn't primarily focused on agility. In our obedience classes I was allowed to do pretty much whatever I felt I needed, even if that meant standing the whole way across the room and working on my own stuff. And a good obedience class will involve fun games, not just learning sit/down/stay for beginners. Or you could do ring rentals, even in an obedience place, and just work on your own stuff for far less money than official classes.


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## CptJack

I am probably going to keep going to the rest of this class session (maybe skip the last, we'll see) since I've paid for it. I signed up expecting that we'd be okay but then we just weren't. Radical overestimation of her maturity on my part, and huge mistake, but it's helping rather than hurting so I'll stick it out that far and likely break.

I'm going to have to explore some other options. We really have very little close, because we're in a rural town that's got almost nothing, with the nearest place WITH THINGS being the college city we're driving to now. There might be something closer, but it'll take digging to find it. We drive an hour to get to a MOVIE theater and a little more than that to the nearest mall. It's kind of bizarre land, here, but it is what it is. I think I might be able to dig up a ring rental closer, weirdly, and maybe a person or two to share it with.

Either way, I really suspect another year and she'll have a brain in her head, and even if she doesn't manage to focus well enough to do agility.... I am increasingly convinced I don't care. PRIDE keeps tripping me up and making me growl because DAMMIT I CAN DO THIS, but. I need to figure out if I WANT to.

But yeah. Break is very, very probable. Maybe not for Kylie, and I'll drag Molly around to attend the dog events we do with Kylie but overall I just have a hard time caring if she can do THIS, since she's plenty of fun in every other way imaginable.


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## CptJack

Guess what we did at agility tonight?

AGILITY. WITH THE CLASS. We stood in the circle, we moved around the circle with other people and dogs in front of and behind us while we did crosses, she did her get outs off leash successfully, she ran through the tunnel. She didn't lose it ONCE, and it was BEAUTIFUL. Other people noticed. People complimented us on her progress even from last week. 

Best of all, as soon as she realized running with me/ahead of me was part of the game she had the time of her life. 

We're going to go ahead and do foundations with her again next go around, then take the summer off, but I am so proud of this puppy. So, so proud - of her. The speed of her progress really makes me think that this is all HER, rather than anything I'm doing.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Congrats for you and Molly! I'm happy to hear she had fun and was able to focus! She's made some great progress!

I'm excited and nervous for obedience classes at the end of the month. I really hope the instructor can help me with Kairi's leash reactive issues. There's only so much I can do on my own. I mean we have really come a long, long way. We are just kind of at a stand still right now in agility because there is so much energy in there. I am still kicking myself in the face for not sticking out more classes with him before moving onto agility. It probably would have saved me a lot of work but I was just so anxious to start! Why the heck didn't I just do both even? Poor Kairi has so much potential and enthusiasm and one heck of a rookie trainer. I know we will figure it out together. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm crazy for wanting to work toward a CGC for a crazy dog like her.. but even if it's not possible at least all the training that goes into it will be most worth it, right? I really love this dog. She might be a challenge but she's so much freakin' fun.


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## CptJack

> Also, I'm pretty sure I'm crazy for wanting to work toward a CGC for a crazy dog like her.. but even if it's not possible at least all the training that goes into it will be most worth it, right?


You're not ever going to regret training you DO, I don't think. I mean even if it doesn't end in a CGC, it still furthers your progress with your dog and your knowledge. So, no, I don't think you're crazy at all.

Also? Fun. Fun is the important thing and that's kind of what I've been realizing about Molly for the past few months. I like agility, but I'm not in love with it and I don't need to do it to have fun with my dogs. It's just a convenient game to play and a way for me to hang around other dog people. 

But that's me and my dog, and my realization and something I somehow have to not just learn but relearn every 6 months or so. 

I'm having fun with my dog. That is the goal, that is the ultimate purpose. I don't have to be the best in class for that. Dang me and my perfectionism and pride, anyway.


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## ireth0

I realize I have a specific thread but I wanted to rave here a bit about copy dog class.

I have never considered myself much for trick training, but this class is forcing us to learn lots of tricks to help her generalize the rule, and I'm finding it really fun!

One of our new tricks for this week is Luna pushing a rolling chair. At first we were both circling the chair with me trying to figure out how to get her to run into it. (Seriously dog, you shove furniture ALL THE TIME except when I want you to?! This was by far the most graceful she's ever been. Ever.) I marked and rewarded for her bumping into it a couple times... then she just put her front paws on the chair out of nowhere and it moved and I totally freaked out and jackpotted like mad. I was planning to be totally okay with her just sort of shoving it with her body, but this was a bonus! After I freaked out she got so excited and just kept doing it, it was so fun.

Also, having her copy what I do on command feels really fricking cool. She hasn't generalized the rule to new things yet, but even just having her do it with known commands feels so neat. I highly recommend trying out the technique to anyone who is interested. It wasn't nearly as difficult to get her to understand as I thought it would be. I dunno if it's the trick training in general, or specifically the copying, but this class definitely has something special about it that is really making me feel more connected to her in general.


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## Cathartica

Hi, I'm new here but this looks like just what I was looking for, so I'll introduce my Kaylee to y'all. She is a 2ish year old rescue from a native reserve. From parents or grandparents who were sled dogs turned loose when snowmobiles became more popular and accessible up there, for sure there is some husky in her, likely also some shepherd, though she is smaller than members of either breed at about 40 lbs. we have her harness trained, and when we go for walks in the winter she pulls my infant son in his little wooden sleigh. We are still working on loose leash walking, she is ok with her head collar on, but I'd like to wean her off of needing it. She is a terror when anyone else tries to walk her. Right now I'm doing a lot of work on basic obedience and manners stuff, this summer I would like to do the ckc's canine good neighbour test with her. Right now she's marvellous when it's just the two of us at home, but in public or with someone here she loses her marbles and is just all over the place.


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## ireth0

Cathartica said:


> Hi, I'm new here but this looks like just what I was looking for, so I'll introduce my Kaylee to y'all. She is a 2ish year old rescue from a native reserve. From parents or grandparents who were sled dogs turned loose when snowmobiles became more popular and accessible up there, for sure there is some husky in her, likely also some shepherd, though she is smaller than members of either breed at about 40 lbs. we have her harness trained, and when we go for walks in the winter she pulls my infant son in his little wooden sleigh. We are still working on loose leash walking, she is ok with her head collar on, but I'd like to wean her off of needing it. She is a terror when anyone else tries to walk her. Right now I'm doing a lot of work on basic obedience and manners stuff, this summer I would like to do the ckc's canine good neighbour test with her. Right now she's marvellous when it's just the two of us at home, but in public or with someone here she loses her marbles and is just all over the place.


Welcome! My girl is a rescue from a reserve as well.


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## CptJack

Cathartica said:


> Hi, I'm new here but this looks like just what I was looking for, so I'll introduce my Kaylee to y'all. She is a 2ish year old rescue from a native reserve. From parents or grandparents who were sled dogs turned loose when snowmobiles became more popular and accessible up there, for sure there is some husky in her, likely also some shepherd, though she is smaller than members of either breed at about 40 lbs. we have her harness trained, and when we go for walks in the winter she pulls my infant son in his little wooden sleigh. We are still working on loose leash walking, she is ok with her head collar on, but I'd like to wean her off of needing it. She is a terror when anyone else tries to walk her. Right now I'm doing a lot of work on basic obedience and manners stuff, this summer I would like to do the ckc's canine good neighbour test with her. Right now she's marvellous when it's just the two of us at home, but in public or with someone here she loses her marbles and is just all over the place.


Welcome and hello! Definitely keep us updated on how things are going. It can be really motivating to have people listening and a place to update on progress.

As an aside, I'm having a new issue with Molly that isn't one - and isn't really new, I guess, but now I can afford some brain space to focus on it. 

She is so overly enthusiastic I can't do anything with her. This is a me learning curve, because I'm working hard to not squash her drive and energy. So, I guess we'll see how I do upping my game to figure out how to teach without slowing her down. It's weirdly hard!


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> She is so overly enthusiastic I can't do anything with her. This is a me learning curve, because I'm working hard to not squash her drive and energy. So, I guess we'll see how I do upping my game to figure out how to teach without slowing her down. It's weirdly hard!


CptJack, what is she doing specifically? I've worked through some of this with Watson, and it's something we are still working through. 

Here are a couple things that have helped. Not sure if they really apply to your situation with Molly, but I thought I Would share.

1) Reverse luring. Having a way to tell him "you are right, just stay right there" has been very useful.

2) Teaching him that silence means "you are right, keep going". If I don't reset the exercise or say anything, he should keep doing what he's doing and not flail around trying to figure out what I want. Important in the obedience ring, but I think it's given him some confidence that he's doing the right thing and doesn't need to run through every behavior he knows.

3) No free shaping. I know there are tons of people with excited dogs who do well with it, but it was just making him flail more. My goal isn't to have a dog who tries everything he knows when he's unsure, so I pretty much stopped doing free shaping with him. I'm sure it's mostly an issue of my skill, but it wasn't working for us. Now I try to set things up so he has less options, which makes him correct more often, and it has made him a little more thoughtful.


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## CptJack

It sounds like reverse luring is maybe the answer I'm looking for/what I need. I've never seen much talk about it or used it, but it sounds like it should work help build duration. Molly's not usually all that bad, when she knows the command and has her head, but it would help.

Mostly, the best way I can describe what she does is throwing herself into everything, rather than any sort of thoughtful deliberation. It's like everything's a flail or a pounce.


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## elrohwen

Here's where I learned it: http://laurawaudby.blogspot.com/2013/02/using-reverse-luring.html

I've gotten a lot more stillness and thoughtfulness in Watson's dumbbell hold behavior, instead of trying to tug or pick it up and spit it out immediately for a treat.


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## CptJack

Oh my gosh, thank you! That makes SO MUCH SENSE.


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## Cathartica

With kaylee I find sometimes she becomes a bit of a spaz and overly exuberant if the reward is too enticing. Some days I can't use freeze dried liver, but have better luck using her kibble or plain cheerios
We also have better success after a long walk or a trip to the dog park to drain some of the crazy energy.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Here's where I learned it: http://laurawaudby.blogspot.com/2013/02/using-reverse-luring.html
> 
> I've gotten a lot more stillness and thoughtfulness in Watson's dumbbell hold behavior, instead of trying to tug or pick it up and spit it out immediately for a treat.


Thank you for sharing that video!!!!! I need to start doing this with Skye and Zoey. They can both get a little spastic from time to time on the offering behaviors front.


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## CptJack

Cathartica said:


> With kaylee I find sometimes she becomes a bit of a spaz and overly exuberant if the reward is too enticing. Some days I can't use freeze dried liver, but have better luck using her kibble or plain cheerios


One of the biggest challenges for Molly is she's a bit the opposite of those dogs who don't really seem motivated to work by anything, and you have to get creative. Molly? Doesn't matter. I've used kibble and gotten the same reaction and intensity as using steak. Tug and toys will ramp her up a bit more than food, and BLAND, kind of affect-less praise will get a slightly less enthusiastic one, but she's just. A very, very ON dog. 

Which is nothing but a good thing 99.9% of the time for teaching, but can be a little problematic with duration and proofing. (We're working on a paw target for agility and once she got it she went from stepping on the target to violently pouncing on it. I mean VIOLENTLY pouncing on it and slamming into it, more than once up ending it and sending it skittering away (and it's not a flat target, it's a 4" tall, 10" diameter bucket). That kind of thing, with a side of "I did what you asked and now I'm going to spin, twirl and jump up and lick you on the nose and/or pounce on your stomach BECAUSE I DID IT I DID IT I DID IT I DID IT DID YOU SEE I DID IT!)

She's fun, but she's... electric. Well, part of the fun is that she's electrified, but it's occasionally a bit difficult to harness and direct for me. I'm more used to having to cheerlead my dogs.


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## Laurelin

Mia and Summer are way more spastic and all over the place with training than Hank. Hank is pretty thoughtful. Of course if he's excited a hand touch tends to be a hand chomp. And we are talking about the dog that is 15" tall but decided to bite my shoulder one day while training because he was so ramped up. 

He is so annoyingly specific though. FINALLY broke him of thinking 'lie down' means to lie down and tuck his right leg up under him. I mis-clicked once. 

On the flip side he's also finally got that high five means to stay seated and just use your paw, not tackle my hand. He's learning that kind of stuff so fast.

We're doing two 2x2s now and it's going well.


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## CptJack

Molly, thank god, rarely uses her mouth. Every once in a while if she's running beside me she'll leap up and grab hold of my arm (or try) but mostly she just pounces. Sometimes on my stomach, sometimes on my face. 

I need to teach that dog to rebound just so it's on a cue, but I was trying to hold off till she was a year old.


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## Laurelin

I put Hank's rebound on a command since he's over a year. It took about a minute. He does that all the time. 

The worst is when he misses and then basically does a roundhouse kick to your gut. A couple weeks ago I was holding a treat up to show him and he jumped and kicked it out of my hand with his back feet. 

Some sort of talent there, I think.

He is very airborne often. 

He is the antithesis of a soft mouth though. That's going to be the biggest issue, especially in agility. He likes to bite a lot.


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## Cathartica

Ok we're having a fantastic day! Kaylee is focused, attentive and just spot on with everything, so I need to brag a little. We're working on her down stay, and sending her to her bed, because she still greets guests in appropriately and we're trying to redirect and give her something positive to do instead. Today I got a 12 minute down stay out of her no problem, and then later I put her in a down stay and went to the kitchen to fix a coffee (out of eye lines, totally different part of the house) and she hadn't budged when I got back! I also did a down stay and told her leave it and put a big nugget of freeze dried liver right by her paw. I left her for 2 minutes, and again, rock solid! She started to drool a little so I took pity on her and told her to take it, but I am just thrilled! Also, I'm moving her bed around, so she's starting to realize I expect her to go to it, rather than the corner it normally sits in. That way if we travel and bring her bed, I can still send her to it easily.


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## Flaming

Vitae somehow unhooked her collar today.

This dog is terrified of vehicles, even parke ones, she ran about 3 feet then I called her....SHE ACTUALLY CAME BACK!


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## GrinningDog

It's funny you guys are talking about rebounds because I sought out this thread to share the fact that I just taught Gypsy a rebound.  I completed and named the trick on Thursday. Been putting it off because I didn't exactly want 40 lbs of pure enthusiasm hitting my midsection for any reason, but it's such a cool trick that I recently got over that notion. 

My stomach is COVERED in bruises and scratches, but WE HAVE IT, YAY. Gypsy definitely wasn't a natural like Hank! It took us a while. She's not physical, and isn't often airborne. I had to convince her to jump on me, not over me, and also to jump on me hard enough to kick off, not slide off, haha.

Unfortunately, I was an idiot and taught her to jump from my left side, which makes it hard to reward with a ball or Frisbee in my right hand. I'm right-handed. Ooops. I asked her to jump from the right side, and her brain broke. We'll be starting from scratch on the right...

Anyway, a video will be coming soon. My mom wanted to see via video on FB, so I'll share it here too.


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## Flaming

...My dogs are too big for rebound *cries*


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## CptJack

Flaming said:


> ...My dogs are too big for rebound *cries*


Just thinking about that made my stomach hurt.

I actually started teaching it to KYLIE a few days ago. Should work on it with Molly but I'd still prefer to put her off as much as I can, age wise. Surprisingly, Kylie's not doing too bad.


----------



## taquitos

Ya'll are talking about rebounds so I think I'll teach that to Meeko next!
Only issue is we have wood floors (dangerous). Do you think a yoga mat or something similar will make it safe enough to practice?


----------



## CptJack

taquitos said:


> Ya'll are talking about rebounds so I think I'll teach that to Meeko next!
> Only issue is we have wood floors (dangerous). Do you think a yoga mat or something similar will make it safe enough to practice?


We have all wood floors, too. I just practiced with Kylie on the couch first and then moved outside, but I think a yoga mat would be at least as good as padding and carpet.


----------



## Laurelin

My one warning is that with Hank at least rebound is clearly his favorite trick and also his default. So.... yeah... just be aware that you may end up with a dog that flings himself at you whenever excited.

Of course Hank already did that.


----------



## taquitos

CptJack said:


> We have all wood floors, too. I just practiced with Kylie on the couch first and then moved outside, but I think a yoga mat would be at least as good as padding and carpet.


I ended up putting a yoga mat and then two layers of IKEA carpets (paranoid but better safe than sorry!). I was crouching and wasn't counting on how much of a workout it would be for me ouch! haha



Laurelin said:


> My one warning is that with Hank at least rebound is clearly his favorite trick and also his default. So.... yeah... just be aware that you may end up with a dog that flings himself at you whenever excited.
> 
> Of course Hank already did that.


Haha oh Hank he's really something  Meeko is much less physical I don't think I'll have that problem. We're having issues encouraging him to jump on and off. I think my dog is just not very athletic lol!


----------



## dagwall

I really like the idea of a rebound but not so much the idea of a 45 pound dog flinging himself at my stomach. He is already very physical, it's a fine line haha.


----------



## CptJack

I think there's a sweet spot, size wise, and Hank's about it. I mean I can handle rebounding Molly at maybe 35lbs, but that's as far as I'd be okay. Kylie's really too short to totally manage, but she can do a good thigh rebound that looks cool.


----------



## Cathartica

Trying to work on loose leash walking with a dog that hasn't had enough exercise lately is a recipe for frustration. She is good on the head halter, but I'm trying to get to the point where I can walk her with just her martingale. I've been doing a 2 leash system where I give her corrections with the collar first, and only correct with the halter if she doesn't listen, but right now she's so hyper and excited by the deep snow, she really isn't listening at all! Trainer issue, not kaylee's fault, but still frustrating


----------



## Canyx

REBOUNDS. Guys, I seriously considered teaching Soro that for years. But he's 70 lbs and I'm 125. It was a serious consideration... 
Instead, I taught him "Super hug" in which he jumps up, not into my arms but up at me so I can catch him in a bear hug. And he knows "Piggyback" which is self explanatory. I want to second Laurelin's warning...

Soro is not physical and not airborne when he doesn't have to be. But... Let's just say I heavily rewarded Piggyback. And I never like to repeat commands but when I am crouching and bracing for it I am saying "WAIT.... WAIT.... WAIT...." And still, an enthusiastic 70 lb dog WILL overjump and land on your head. It will happen. I love that trick to death. I can't not wince while doing it.


----------



## GrinningDog

My stomach and thighs are COVERED in scratches and bruises. I couldn't imagine teaching this trick to a dog much bigger than Gypsy at 40 lbs. Though people do it! If you teach Soro, maybe get one of those vault vests that they use for disc. Won't stop the blows but it'll protect against scratching. I personally wouldn't try with a larger dog. I REALLY took a beating, haha.

Here's our rebound. Took a while to convince her that jumping on me was okay. She's not physical at all.


----------



## winterpup

I wish I could teach a rebound too! Unfortunately, Hunter is 85 lbs and I am 120. Currently trying to teach a back stall and failing, not sure I'm even up for it anyways! 

Our new thing we are focusing on is handstand.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Nope on rebound training. Kairi is naturally physical (as a lot of Aussies can be) and would more than likely rebound without my asking. While it wouldn't bother me too much all the time.. she has already uhm.. you know.. hurt my husband a lot.  

Though I think it is a really cool trick!


----------



## Laurelin

Here's Hank's rebounds.


----------



## GrinningDog

Mr. Hank sure likes to bounce! Cutie.


----------



## kadylady

Hank is the cutest!


----------



## elrohwen

I got a Treat&Train for my birthday! The main purpose is for when/if I get a puppy, I want to use it for crate training (something Watson has always struggled with), and for rewarding Watson for staying on his mat while I train the puppy. 

I tried it out last night and the results were pretty funny. At first he did not like the sound of the disc turning, so he gave it lots of dirty looks. But once he figured it out, he wouldn't leave its side. I could barely get him to do simple tricks because he just wanted to sit next to it and stare at me. This dog, he cracks me up. His expression was so clear, "I know you have the remote, Food Lady. So make it give me food!" He also followed it around and barked at it once I put it away.


----------



## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> I got a Treat&Train for my birthday! The main purpose is for when/if I get a puppy, I want to use it for crate training (something Watson has always struggled with), and for rewarding Watson for staying on his mat while I train the puppy.
> 
> I tried it out last night and the results were pretty funny. At first he did not like the sound of the disc turning, so he gave it lots of dirty looks. But once he figured it out, he wouldn't leave its side. I could barely get him to do simple tricks because he just wanted to sit next to it and stare at me. This dog, he cracks me up. His expression was so clear, "I know you have the remote, Food Lady. So make it give me food!" He also followed it around and barked at it once I put it away.


Haha, if I got one of those I think Jubel would treat it every similarly...except when it stopped paying out he'd take matters into his own hands and try to break the treats out. Probably wouldn't end well.


----------



## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Haha, if I got one of those I think Jubel would treat it every similarly...except when it stopped paying out he'd take matters into his own hands and try to break the treats out. Probably wouldn't end well.


Yes, there were some attempts to get the food out on his own and some serious pawing. I ended up taking a hard line and completely leaving the room when he started pawing and he did get the idea. I'm sure the next time I pull it out there will be pawing again, but I hope we can extinguish it so I can use it with less supervision (like in a crate while I walk away for a minute or two).


----------



## CptJack

Another Tuesday, another agility class.

Molly's been cooped up with only minimal exercise for the last ten days because of weather. Class was cancelled last week for the same reason. Predictably she was pretty wound up, flakey and LOUD. She did do okay with what she needed to do, though. Did her get outs (figure 8s this week), did some target/contact work with a plank on the ground. Did not even TRY recall games since this week that game was dogs running opposite directions past each other and just - no. No way, no how. Instructor asked if we were going to, which I found a little confusing because ... well, no.

That said, Molly does do 900% better when WORKING with the rest of the class instead of watching. Watching's bad for her frustration level. 

Anyway.

I actually left the class at that point. We weren't even in the building, since no matter where we would have been the dogs would have been rushing at us head on. Mostly, *I* was over threshold. Cooped up in the house for 10 days, with 2 teenagers constantly around (no school) and being stuck in a building with a bunch of other people and dogs was just more than I could handle. 

We have two more classes of this session - one more regular and then the little competition thing. Then two weeks off, then we start all over. Right now, I'd kind of rather take a hike into the middle of nowhere and throw a ball, but that'll probably be gone by tomorrow.


----------



## ireth0

Decided my next trick for copy class is going to be having Luna lay her head on a pillow. Because I don't have enough props in my bag for this class yet.


----------



## elrohwen

Last night's rally class was horrible. In our first run Watson was super sniffy, which was annoying but fine - I can work with that.

The second run was a complete meltdown. Someone showed up with her obnoxious adolescent clumber spaniel who completely set Watson off. The clumber was staring, he was whining, he was not sitting still, and Watson flipped out. Ironically, that dog was obnoxious in exactly the same way Watson used to be obnoxious, and now he cannot stand it.

The seating area is small, and we were already backed into a corner, and the woman was more interested in talking to another dog owner than in moving her dog farther away from Watson. By the time we went into the ring he was wound so tight that he couldn't focus on anything and would randomly lunge to the end of the leash in the direction of the other dogs. I gave up half way through and just took him outside to work on heeling in the snowy parking lot.

Sometimes he is just so out of control. We have worked so hard, and he has been so calm and well behaved in this class for 3 months, but then it just takes one dog who sets him off for him to have a meltdown. He is by far the best trained dog in that rally class, but also the only one to completely lose his mind and be unable to function. He's so frustrating. I swear once we finally trial in anything, he will get perfect scores or disastrous NQs.

Sometimes I really want to quit everything and just keep him locked in the house where he is the perfect dog.


----------



## Canyx

Tried teaching Soro rebounds after seeing y'all do it. He was very enthusiastic. But I could tell I would never be able to transition from sitting in a chair to gradually reducing my incline against a wall. Got bruises on my legs, and am very sadly going to have to bin this one


----------



## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Last night's rally class was horrible. In our first run Watson was super sniffy, which was annoying but fine - I can work with that.
> 
> The second run was a complete meltdown. Someone showed up with her obnoxious adolescent clumber spaniel who completely set Watson off. The clumber was staring, he was whining, he was not sitting still, and Watson flipped out. Ironically, that dog was obnoxious in exactly the same way Watson used to be obnoxious, and now he cannot stand it.
> 
> The seating area is small, and we were already backed into a corner, and the woman was more interested in talking to another dog owner than in moving her dog farther away from Watson. By the time we went into the ring he was wound so tight that he couldn't focus on anything and would randomly lunge to the end of the leash in the direction of the other dogs. I gave up half way through and just took him outside to work on heeling in the snowy parking lot.
> 
> Sometimes he is just so out of control. We have worked so hard, and he has been so calm and well behaved in this class for 3 months, but then it just takes one dog who sets him off for him to have a meltdown. He is by far the best trained dog in that rally class, but also the only one to completely lose his mind and be unable to function. He's so frustrating. I swear once we finally trial in anything, he will get perfect scores or disastrous NQs.
> 
> Sometimes I really want to quit everything and just keep him locked in the house where he is the perfect dog.


That sucks. I have the opposite issue in some respects. Jubel is generally well behaved I'd say 90-95% of the time out in public. He saves his jackass behaviors just for me at home. Why HE went to day care on Tuesday when I stayed home to rest my foot that the dogs caused me to fall on Monday evening. Both pulled at the same time as I stepped on a patch of ice. I KNEW he'd be an obnoxious brat all day long because "hey, you're home! Lets do stuff" while Daphne will just chill out and by my couch buddy all day.


----------



## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> That sucks. I have the opposite issue in some respects. Jubel is generally well behaved I'd say 90-95% of the time out in public. He saves his jackass behaviors just for me at home. Why HE went to day care on Tuesday when I stayed home to rest my foot that the dogs caused me to fall on Monday evening. Both pulled at the same time as I stepped on a patch of ice. I KNEW he'd be an obnoxious brat all day long because "hey, you're home! Lets do stuff" while Daphne will just chill out and by my couch buddy all day.


He's surprisingly well behaved in very busy public spaces. After a little initial excitement and screaming, he settles down at dog shows, or walking around busy cities, and is a model citizen. He's the worst when the environment is generally quiet and boring, like on a walk where we hardly see anybody, or in a class where people are mostly sitting and being quiet. It's those situations where he is right on the tipping point of being relaxed and not caring, or flipping around on the end of the leash like a bass. He can't process a lot of stimulation and just starts to ignore it (like at dog shows), but ignoring that one thing that annoys him in an otherwise low stim place is so hard for him.

It's hard for him if he really likes the dog for some reason, and he will jump around while screaming and trying to get their attention. And if the dog really pisses him off, he will do more of a typical reactive bark/growl thing. And he goes from 0 to 60 so fast. He's such an environmental dog.

I'm also frustrated because with age he has gotten better at recovering from flipping out, and last night was a big set back. A few weeks ago the instructor's intact male sheltie would bark from his crate every time we went to the Start sign for the course. Watson obviously didn't like that and would turn and bark back, but I could get him back under control immediately and he was fine for the rest of the course. I was so not expecting him to have such a prolonged freakout last night. Even when we were on the opposite side of the huge room, far away from the clumber, he couldn't focus at all. He would be sort of next to me in heel position, but not paying attention and I would stop and tell him to sit and he would sit 5ft away from me, sideways, staring into space. He just could not function.


----------



## Laurelin

Apparently cat poop > any treat I have. 

Grrr.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Apparently cat poop > any treat I have.
> 
> Grrr.


Fill your pockets with cat poop?


----------



## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> Apparently cat poop > any treat I have.
> 
> Grrr.


Well Duh?? I think most dogs feel that way haha.


----------



## taquitos

Laurelin said:


> Apparently cat poop > any treat I have.
> 
> Grrr.


Haha yup!

I've managed to reduce the amount of kitty poop munching but he will still go for it if he's bored or if the litter hasn't been cleaned.

Thank goodness my cats poop on a regular schedule so I'm able to usually scoop before Meeko gets to it.

I don't know how many times he's come to me with a face full of litter, his breath stinking of cat poo, wanting to cuddle LOL


----------



## CptJack

Agility class tonight? Molly acted like a normal dog. I mean, a normal teenage, distracted, high energy, dog - but a normal dog. The only barking that happened at all was when other dogs started barking at each other and it was really minimal. She did tunnels and jump chutes and targeting and get outs and did all of it on leash. Successfully. 

Of course, next week is the last class with these dogs, then two weeks off and a whole new group so I expect some backsliding - but I'll take what I can get when I get it, you know?


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Agility class tonight? Molly acted like a normal dog. I mean, a normal teenage, distracted, high energy, dog - but a normal dog. The only barking that happened at all was when other dogs started barking at each other and it was really minimal. She did tunnels and jump chutes and targeting and get outs and did all of it on leash. Successfully.
> 
> Of course, next week is the last class with these dogs, then two weeks off and a whole new group so I expect some backsliding - but I'll take what I can get when I get it, you know?


That's awesome! 

Watson always backslides in a new class with new dogs. Sometimes not so much, depending on the dogs, and sometimes a lot.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> That's awesome!
> 
> Watson always backslides in a new class with new dogs. Sometimes not so much, depending on the dogs, and sometimes a lot.


Oh yeah. I'm expecting there to be backsliding and I'm actually expecting to 'lose' the first couple of classes to nuttiness again, at least. 

I'm just going to take last night and be happy with it - particularly impressed since last night started with a dog bolting out of the car BEFORE we were even in the building and heading straight for her while she was trying to pee. I guess we'll see how things go when we get there, but we'll get through it, do what we can with the next class, go to the show 'n goes and trial and then take a break for at least the summer. Do fun things, chill out about it and assess if I care enough to come back to it, later. 

(Also typo above: She did things OFF leash.)


----------



## elrohwen

I think we are *finally* going to take private lessons in agility. Yay! I'm moving back home April 1st so I contacted the place we were taking classes to see if they can do privates, and I'm working on setting up some weekend classes with one of the primary instructors (not the one we were taking classes with before).

I think Watson's zoomies are a combo of stress and just being an idiot who likes to run around and check things out. With other dogs in the arena it wasn't safe to let him get his zoomies out (and he was self-reinforcing by running up to other dogs), and trying to control his every move was not working. I think if I just let him run it out and use some gimme a break stuff (that I have used successfully at home) I might be able to get him working with me. He needs to feel like it's his choice to work, and I couldn't give him that much freedom with so many other dogs standing right in the ring.

So I'm very excited. I honestly don't care if we ever trial, because I don't even enjoy dog shows that much, but I would love to be able to take classes and have fun, instead of going home in tears and feeling like we are always the most out of control team in every class.

He knows the foundation stuff, he has a lot of training, and he knows how to work with me, so I don't think more group classes in foundations is going to do any good. We need a crash course on working off leash in exciting places. If he can do it outside in my woods (in a fenced in area) which is the most exciting place in the entire world to him, then he can do it in an agility ring.


----------



## Laurelin

In another training WTF moment I never thought I'd have, Hank missed my tug and latched on to the seat of my pants yesterday. Talk about embarrassing.

I also ended the training session with a bloody lip. How does this happen?

We haven't done much of anything at all for two weeks because of snow and such. We were working back sides of jumps versus wraps last night and he's still 50/50 on it. I still have to virtually feed him to the back of the jump to get him to correctly choose. Maybe that's a question for the agility thread if I should be doing something else with my body language.


----------



## CptJack

> He knows the foundation stuff, he has a lot of training, and he knows how to work with me, so I don't think more group classes in foundations is going to do any good. We need a crash course on working off leash in exciting places. If he can do it outside in my woods (in a fenced in area) which is the most exciting place in the entire world to him, then he can do it in an agility ring.


Yeah. At some point you've got to just dive. I'm sort of (SORT OF) regretting not taking Molly into the beginner class instead of repeating foundations since she does better with new material, but I'd like her to think about what she's doing and she's really young on top of reactive and her foundations aren't all THAT solid yet. 

Honestly, my biggest training issue with Molly right now isn't reactivity, it's that she has lost her brain and attention span. If she had a thought bubble following her around, it would read la-di-da or 'ball' for about 23.4 hours a day. She'll do what you ask her to do, but she does it in such a way that you can't help but get the impression that her success was the results of a (very) brief interruption to the bird tweeting that's taken the place of any actual brain activity. 

Weird as heck to see little miss energetic, focused, bright dog dissolve into what amounts to an airhead. 

And YET.

Some of this is undoubtedly the result of crappy weather and lack of appropriate exercise. I mean she's got a good off switch but there are limits, and she's had maybe 2 good days of exercise in the last month. The rest is probably that she's 9 months old, and I'm pretty confident I'll see what I'm used to again, but LOL.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Honestly, my biggest training issue with Molly right now isn't reactivity, it's that she has lost her brain and any attention span that she has ever had. If she had a thought bubble following her around, it would read la-di-da or 'ball' for about 23.4 hours a day. She'll do what you ask her to do, but she does it in such a way that you can't help but get the impression that her success was the results of a (very) brief interruption to the bird tweeting that's taken the place of any actual brain activity.
> 
> Weird as heck to see little miss energetic, focused, bright dog dissolve into what amounts to an air-head.
> 
> And YET.


That happened to Watson at 8 months, and I'm only now seeing glimmers of a brain. Stupid slow maturing boy dogs.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> That happened to Watson at 8 months, and I'm only now seeing glimmers of a brain. Stupid slow maturing boy dogs.


I'm only now starting to see Thud acting like he has a brain sometimes, and only when he's nowhere near Molly. She's still more reliable and better focused than he is. Some of it's just types of intelligent and general personality, but a lot of it's that even at over 2, he's... a puppy. His temperament's smoothed out and stabilized at something pretty great and sensible, but I think he'll be at least 3 before I see truly mature behavior from him more often than I don't. 

If Molly takes until she's 3 to act like she has a brain again, I might have to go back to boozy cupcakes. 

(Exercise will help him, too. He's also been lacking. Kylie's small enough to run it off inside. Bug and Jack don't care. Thud and Molly are coming mentally unhinged. Fortunately this weekend looks good for spending all day outside.)


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I'm only now starting to see Thud acting like he has a brain sometimes, and only when he's nowhere near Molly. She's still more reliable and better focused than he is. Some of it's just types of intelligent and general personality, but a lot of it's that even at over 2, he's... a puppy. His temperament's smoothed out and stabilized at something pretty great and sensible, but I think he'll be at least 3 before I see truly mature behavior from him more often than I don't.
> 
> If Molly takes until she's 3 to act like she has a brain again, I might have to go back to boozy cupcakes.
> 
> (Exercise will help him, too. He's also been lacking. Kylie's small enough to run it off inside. Bug and Jack don't care. Thud and Molly are coming mentally unhinged. Fortunately this weekend looks good for spending all day outside.)


I do think a lot of it is a boy thing. I've met plenty of female Welshies between 9 months and a year and every single one was much more sensible and less of an idiot than Watson. And I do think being intact makes him worse. Not necessarily more immature, but more distractable and more focused on other dogs than he might be otherwise. I've heard similar things from male Welshie owners who have intact dogs, and haven't heard it from people who neutered, but I don't really have a scientific study to back it up or anything.

I could do without the hormonal hatred of other intact males though. Within one Rally class he will be barking and flipping out in a pissed off way about the young intact male sitting nearby, and then be shrieking and flipping out in a happy way because he saw the female poodle he has a crush on. I miss the days when he was only happy-reactive because I didn't have to worry about dogs accidentally getting in his face. God, I hope he grows out of this a bit. He doesn't have to love intact males, but I wish he would tone it down. Growling at 8 month old intact male puppies after being initially super happy to meet them is just stupid.


----------



## d_ray

We had a trainer come to the house to assess jazzy and give us a training plan to work with her reactivity. Good news is that she thinks jazzy is only a 1-2 on the reactivity scale. She thinks we can make a lot of profess in a couple of sessions. We will start next week. I am very positive about working with her and jazzy.


----------



## CptJack

d_ray said:


> We had a trainer come to the house to assess jazzy and give us a training plan to work with her reactivity. Good news is that she thinks jazzy is only a 1-2 on the reactivity scale. She thinks we can make a lot of profess in a couple of sessions. We will start next week. I am very positive about working with her and jazzy.


Let us know how it goes!

Molly is the best thing I've ever done for building Kylie's toy drive back up:









She played FRISBEE today!


----------



## Laurelin

Ok. Humble lesson learned. Terrier stays on leash now and forever. Terrier is not a sheltie or papillon.

Plus side, he stayed with his game and I found him with the poor armadillo balled up in its den. And also a plus in that he is very vocal when he corners prey.

So yep. No more off leash at Dad's acreage. Long line only.

Armadillo is ok. Hank is ok. I am covered in mud and sticks and lost an earring.


----------



## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Ok. Humble lesson learned. Terrier stays on leash now and forever. Terrier is not a sheltie or papillon.
> 
> Plus side, he stayed with his game and I found him with the poor armadillo balled up in its den. And also a plus in that he is very vocal when he corners prey.
> 
> So yep. No more off leash at Dad's acreage. Long line only.
> 
> Armadillo is ok. Hank is ok. I am covered in mud and sticks and lost an earring.



That would scare me to death. I'm glad it ended well!

So, last agility class of this session was tonight. Molly did okay - some reacting, but... reacting at other dogs reacting? Like at each other. They'd lunge and bark and lose it at one another and then Molly'd kind of lose the plot. Otherwise she did all right. Even politely sniffed the dog in front of us at one point. So, she's learning and improving there. 

Class itself was fine. My dogs winning or tying for the win in the get out competition (go around a bucket at increasing distances) continues as an unbroken trend - which is nice. She did tunnels, and get outs to a low jump, and then a tunnel to a jump okay. She's waaaaay faster than I'm used to, but that's to be expected. Glad we're re-doing foundations again, though, both for increased exposure to new dogs (which IS going to set us back) and because honestly? She's either on and focused and wonderful or - SQUIRREL. That and she's still under a year old. Putting her on any equipment more than a lowered jump or tunnel right now just seems like it would be a recipe for her flying off the top or over the side or something.

Either way, I'm pretty satisfied with where we are right now. I'd like more focus, attention, and impulse control in novel environments but. She's 9 months old.


----------



## Laurelin

For those people still unsure about teaching a rebound to their dogs I present to you 2 stories.

1. At the trial this weekend a group of me and my friends were standing around eating cookies. Hank was on a leash. One of my friends asked if Hank had a sit pretty trick yet while feeding him some cookie and I said 'No. But I DID teach him this one cool trick. Watch this!' I put my hands behind my back and said 'Hit it' and Hank SLAMMED her in the stomach and did a rebound off of my friend and not me. Luckily she's a disc dog person so thought it was cool. lol

2. Today at the dog park Hank did random rebounds off of 4 people. 1 for the ball but the other 3 for no reason. Just excited to see them, I guess?

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.


----------



## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> For those people still unsure about teaching a rebound to their dogs I present to you 2 stories.
> 
> 1. At the trial this weekend a group of me and my friends were standing around eating cookies. Hank was on a leash. One of my friends asked if Hank had a sit pretty trick yet while feeding him some cookie and I said 'No. But I DID teach him this one cool trick. Watch this!' I put my hands behind my back and said 'Hit it' and Hank SLAMMED her in the stomach and did a rebound off of my friend and not me. Luckily she's a disc dog person so thought it was cool. lol
> 
> 2. Today at the dog park Hank did random rebounds off of 4 people. 1 for the ball but the other 3 for no reason. Just excited to see them, I guess?
> 
> YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.



...Molly did a rebound off my husband without warning and knocked him on his butt this weekend. To which I said 'Cool, we've been working on that' and he said _WHY THE F* would you teach her that?!?!_ in the most offended tone. 

I laughed. 

But yeah. Warning. 

(Yes, she's too young but she was doing it ANYWAY, just less safely)


----------



## jade5280

We haven't done much training lately. I'm still working on desensitizing Ryker to the dremel so I can get his nails down to a reasonable length, but it's taking so so long. It's such a boring process. 

When I bring Gypsy out on leash or a long line and I stand still she will go to the end of the leash and just bark. That's all she wants to do is go forward. Why can't she just be happy sniffing things in the radius that I give her? I can take her out on a 50ft long line and she will run to the end and bark.


----------



## ireth0

We will be doing advanced obedience end of April and then starting Rally in June! Woohoo!


----------



## Laurelin

I started a back stall with Hank. By the end of this I am determined for him to be climbing all over everyone.


----------



## kadylady

Small success yesterday...it was 50 degrees so Skye got her own walk separate from the other 2 (which will be happening more often now that I can stand to be outside long enough for separate walks). There were lots of people, kids and dogs out since it was so nice out and I started down the street and thought to myself, crap I should have brought treats, because she has occasionally been slightly reactive to seeing other dogs or kids running and screaming or strange people, especially if we pass houses where dogs are barking at her she always barks back. But I was like nope, not going back, we are just gonna go and see what happens... She was fantastic!! We came around a corner and there were 2 people standing on the other side of the sidewalk talking, each with a dog, one of the dogs started barking at her and I was praising like crazy for her being quiet and watching and she didn't make a peep! Her hackles stood up a little bit but no return barking and she was giving me some nice attention when asked for. We continued on our way, passed by some kids on bikes, passed by a few more dogs, a couple dogs in yards barking at us, no return barking! She was so polite, just watching quietly, I'm sure people thought I was crazy because I was like OMG YOU ARE SUCH A GOOD GIRL HERE WANNA PLAY TUG WITH YOUR LEASH BECAUSE YOU ARE SO AWESOME?!?!?! We really have not done much walking at all this winter due to crappy weather and even crappier sidewalk conditions, so most of her socialization has been inside. I mean she has had a ton of it, but inside is different from outside, so I was really proud of her yesterday when it was so busy outside.


----------



## Silly Dog

Can anyone post here? My funny training incident last night:

Sage is trained to jump straight up when you swoop an arm and say 'UP'. So in the group class last night the trainer is walking right past her while talking about how to direct a dogs attention. Right as she walked past Sage, she swoops her arms up and says "...if you want them looking UP". At which point Sage does a perfect straight up leap that takes her nose to nose with the trainer, who was...a bit surprised. Sage lands at her feet and just waits nicely for her treat.

Fortunately the trainer thought it was hilarious when I told her about that cue. I just wish I had gotten a look at the other students faces.


----------



## ireth0

Oh! I meant to post about this...

Our last Copy class we were trying the dogs with new behaviours just to see how they reacted. One of them was weaving through pylons (3 pylons). I did it, walked back to Luna, and asked her to 'do it!'. 

She paused. Looked at me. Looked at the pylon. Then whacked it over with her paw. Everyone in the class burst out laughing, hahaha. I give her props for at least knowing I wanted her to do something with the pylons and giving it a shot!

"I WEAVE FOR NO ONE."


----------



## GrinningDog

Ah, yes, the hazards of training a rebound.

Gypsy rebounded off my face on Sunday(?). I have a long, healing gash across my right cheek. 

Little too high, dog. Just a little.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Laurelin said:


> For those people still unsure about teaching a rebound to their dogs I present to you 2 stories.
> 
> 1. At the trial this weekend a group of me and my friends were standing around eating cookies. Hank was on a leash. One of my friends asked if Hank had a sit pretty trick yet while feeding him some cookie and I said 'No. But I DID teach him this one cool trick. Watch this!' I put my hands behind my back and said 'Hit it' and Hank SLAMMED her in the stomach and did a rebound off of my friend and not me. Luckily she's a disc dog person so thought it was cool. lol.


That for reals cracked me up!


Just a random brag today. The last time Kairi had a blood draw at the vet for her HW test she was well.. awful. She struggled and kept telling me off like a little crap (I work at the vet, so I hold her). So.. no surprise I was nervous as crap to get her blood draw today. I pulled her head up and told her to "hold it" (which is what I tell her to do when I'm brushing out her neck fluff and always reward her for staying still) and she DID. I am so proud of how well behaved this girl has become for grooming and handling in general. Part of it might be training, part of it might be because I make her do it all the time, part of it is most likely because she is hitting maturity. Love her to bits. <3

Edit - ireth0: That must have been hilarious. Silly Luna you smarty pants!


----------



## Laurelin

I am trying to decide if I want to intro Hank to odor this weekend on my own or wait till he can do a full nosework class. 

I kind of would like to try it on my own and just start straight on odor versus doing food a long time.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I am trying to decide if I want to intro Hank to odor this weekend on my own or wait till he can do a full nosework class.
> 
> I kind of would like to try it on my own and just start straight on odor versus doing food a long time.


With my next dog I plan to do my own intro to odor. Classes just took way too long to get from food to odor and I didn't see any benefit (at least for my dog). I know the Fenzi nosework classes use odor from the beginning so I may sign up for that class and get some ideas if/when I am introducing NextDog to nosework.


----------



## Laurelin

Yeah I'm conflicted. I was talking to an old classmate who is now training her new terv in nosework and the classes go even longer. They do 12 weeks of food to odor instead of 6 like we did. But I like the instructor and classes are fun.... but that's $90 x 4 just to get to odor... and I could do it myself easily.

I also thought about doing the Fenzi nosework class. I loved the advanced one but I am more motivated to train in a class in person (except agility, which I do on my own). I'm afraid I'll fall behind.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Yeah I'm conflicted. I was talking to an old classmate who is now training her new terv in nosework and the classes go even longer. They do 12 weeks of food to odor instead of 6 like we did. But I like the instructor and classes are fun.... but that's $90 x 4 just to get to odor... and I could do it myself easily.
> 
> I also thought about doing the Fenzi nosework class. I loved the advanced one but I am more motivated to train in a class in person (except agility, which I do on my own). I'm afraid I'll fall behind.


I think I could stay motivated enough to do the nosework foundations, and then join a class if necessary to get additional practice. I found both of us getting really bored in the first 12 weeks of class until we were own odor alone, and doing more complicated searches.

My other consideration is that a second dog will mean less classes for each dog. If I'm going to do 2-3 classes total across two dogs, nosework isn't really a priority. I'd rather be taking agility and obedience classes, or Fenzi classes.


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## Laurelin

I think this next Fenzi session I'm going to do bronze for AG120 and the NW120. May go ahead and just buy the NW101 lectures outside of the actual sessions.


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## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> Yeah I'm conflicted. I was talking to an old classmate who is now training her new terv in nosework and the classes go even longer. They do 12 weeks of food to odor instead of 6 like we did. But I like the instructor and classes are fun.... but that's $90 x 4 just to get to odor... and I could do it myself easily.
> 
> I also thought about doing the Fenzi nosework class. I loved the advanced one but I am more motivated to train in a class in person (except agility, which I do on my own). I'm afraid I'll fall behind.


If and when I eventually foster fail and have a second full time dog I'll likely do nosework foundations myself. Prices have gone up again and now foundation classes are $215 X 4. Really not going to happen unless I hit a road block along the way that I just can't fix on my own.


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## Laurelin

Threadles!






Threadles!

Testing out a new method involving turning my shoulders. Seems to be working with Hank. Summer just needed an arm across me to call her in. Video'd to see what he was doing when I did both.

Also really awesome accidental rebound at :07 lol


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## d_ray

We had our first training session with Jazzy last night and it went great. 

The trainer wants us to train a solid "touch" command to potentially use as redirection.

She brought her dog as a helper dog. She left her dog in the car, but in the back and opened the door so her dog was visible. We practiced walking Jazz by the car and anytime she became too fixated on the other dog, we would get her attention and treat her for looking at us. Then my SO walked the trainers dog a head of us and we walked Jazz about 15 feet behind. We continued getting her attention once too fixated and treating her. We then closed the distance to about 10 feet and treated for looking at us. By the end, she would look at us without us even asking.

Finally, we walked both dogs towards each other a few times. Finally, we let the dogs greet briefly as long as Jazz was calm. 

Jazzy was much more interested in the treats than the dog. The trainer said she doesn't even think we will need to use the "touch" command. She thinks we will simply be able to talk Jazzy through it and than treat her for ignoring the dog. I was extremely happy with the trainer and Jazzy's progress.

She is coming back next week to work on Jazzy's re activity to strangers.


----------



## jade5280

Laurelin said:


> Threadles!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Threadles!
> 
> Testing out a new method involving turning my shoulders. Seems to be working with Hank. Summer just needed an arm across me to call her in. Video'd to see what he was doing when I did both.
> 
> Also really awesome accidental rebound at :07 lol


So cool! I love how bouncy Hank is!



d_ray said:


> We had our first training session with Jazzy last night and it went great.
> 
> The trainer wants us to train a solid "touch" command to potentially use as redirection.
> 
> She brought her dog as a helper dog. She left her dog in the car, but in the back and opened the door so her dog was visible. We practiced walking Jazz by the car and anytime she became too fixated on the other dog, we would get her attention and treat her for looking at us. Then my SO walked the trainers dog a head of us and we walked Jazz about 15 feet behind. We continued getting her attention once too fixated and treating her. We then closed the distance to about 10 feet and treated for looking at us. By the end, she would look at us without us even asking.
> 
> Finally, we walked both dogs towards each other a few times. Finally, we let the dogs greet briefly as long as Jazz was calm.
> 
> Jazzy was much more interested in the treats than the dog. The trainer said she doesn't even think we will need to use the "touch" command. She thinks we will simply be able to talk Jazzy through it and than treat her for ignoring the dog. I was extremely happy with the trainer and Jazzy's progress.
> 
> She is coming back next week to work on Jazzy's re activity to strangers.


That's awesome!


----------



## d_ray

jade5280 said:


> So cool! I love how bouncy Hank is!
> 
> 
> That's awesome!


Thanks. I'm so glad I contacted her before it got worse. Now it seems a lot more manageable. She also suggested getting a hands free leash for Jewel so that I can have a free hand to work with Jazz when I'm ready to walk them together.


----------



## kadylady

Skye likes disc! We went to a disc sports foundation class today that my friend is teaching. It was her first time with a disc and at first she was a little meh about it but once she realized she could tug on it she was totally in to it. We were mostly working on building drive for the disc and learning to throw rollers (which I suck at so far lol) then we did a piece with them going through a tunnel and driving after the disc. She did really well and enjoyed the game. The best part was how well she worked with me in a super distracting environment. I was letting her get pretty high about the disc and she was still able to work and focus and settle when asked. I do have several bite marks on my arms though.... Her eye mouth coordination is still developing...


----------



## CptJack

Skye and Molly, man. Skye and Molly.

Disc = Most fun thing EVER. For Molly but also, um, me. I LOVE IT and can not wait for her to get a little older so I can really start doing some neat stuff with it. She catches it now, but we're still throwing low enough so that at most her front feet come off, but I can't wait to do more. I'm more excited by dogs chasing frisbees than I was about agility. I just don't know what my deal is, but it's so NEAT.


----------



## CptJack

Out on a walk today we ran into a 'new' (to us) dog outside a house. Molly reacted but this time mostly looked at me and *whined* instead of barking and lunging. I don't know what kind of progress that is, or what exactly it means, but I'll take it. At least it's quieter, you know?


----------



## kadylady

CptJack said:


> Skye and Molly, man. Skye and Molly.
> 
> Disc = Most fun thing EVER. For Molly but also, um, me. I LOVE IT and can not wait for her to get a little older so I can really start doing some neat stuff with it. She catches it now, but we're still throwing low enough so that at most her front feet come off, but I can't wait to do more. I'm more excited by dogs chasing frisbees than I was about agility. I just don't know what my deal is, but it's so NEAT.


We did a little disc play again last night, mostly me trying to figure out how to throw rollers lol She is totally getting into it and the whole retrieve thing is really kicking in big time. She was consistently bringing the discs all the way back to my hands. I am enjoying it more than I thought. I didn't really expect to really get into, just figured it was a good environment to practice working together in and if she liked it a good exercise outlet. But oh, this is kind of fun! She's fun so pretty much anything we do together is fun.  We also started working on shaping a handstand last night. She goes completely vertical against the shower wall in the bathtub to avoid the water so I figured why not do that trick. lol


----------



## CptJack

kadylady said:


> We did a little disc play again last night, mostly me trying to figure out how to throw rollers lol She is totally getting into it and the whole retrieve thing is really kicking in big time. She was consistently bringing the discs all the way back to my hands. I am enjoying it more than I thought. I didn't really expect to really get into, just figured it was a good environment to practice working together in and if she liked it a good exercise outlet. But oh, this is kind of fun! She's fun so pretty much anything we do together is fun.  We also started working on shaping a handstand last night. She goes completely vertical against the shower wall in the bathtub to avoid the water so I figured why not do that trick. lol


Molly's been fetch crazy since she was about 10 weeks old, honestly, but man watching her turn on for the frisbee.... I've been thinking about it for the last week and trying to figure out what the thrill is for me and I REALLY think it's just seeing her in her element and watching her go "OH! OH MAN! THIS IS MY THING!" Like so, so clearly. I like it too, though. Lots. Lots and lots and lots and I need to get some rigid dog discs and give those a try with her. God knows I can throw those better than the floppy thing. 

But yeah, playing with a joyful dog is the best thing. The BEST thing. 

I'm working on a bunch of positional stuff with Molly right now. I'd call it heel work if it were really heeling, but it's not even close. I mean she has a good heel on my left, but I'm also working with 'switch' for agility, and moving on my right side and walking between my legs with me (without her feet on mine) and backing up between them and moving back and forward and pivoting from there and the left and right. Kind of boring sounding but pretty fun in the teaching. I don't think there's a chance in heck of handstands any time soon, though, how cool!


----------



## Laurelin

That's what Hank did with lure coursing. Very clearly that is his favorite thing he's ever done that I've seen. Now I'm trying to decide if I want to drive 3 hours for another CAT test. Not just for the title/Qs but because he loved it. My trainer's BC is a coursing NUT too.


----------



## elrohwen

That is Watson with nosework. It's what he was meant to do and he seems so excited that I want to play this amazing game with him. He really has a sense of teamwork when we are doing nosework, vs other activities that sometimes feel like more of a battle between what I want to do and what he wants to do.

I find nosework kind of boring, but if he loves it we'll keep doing it.


----------



## Laurelin

So far Hank really likes most of what we've tried. He's not very coordinated and good at Frisbee and I'm not super comfortable with a lot of the vaults and such (in general and especially with him). He tends to land weird and just fling himself. My Frisbee friends think he has potential but mehhhh

Flyball he loved but I just can't commit. And it's boring to me.

I think agility is definitely the main focus but he loves barn hunt and lure coursing a lot so we'll pursue those to a lesser extent. Also nice that they aren't really things that need training. Either your dog does them or they don't. lol I really am enjoying the more instinct based sports a lot. I've always loved training but it's cool to see a dog really turn on to something without training. Hank had an epiphany in barn hunt last time so I'm interested to see if his drive continues to develop for the sport.

I did not get a chance to try him on odor yet. I want to though. 

I may do some rally-o work with him. He likes obedience and I think it'd help his focus.

Should keep us busy enough! (I hope!)


----------



## CptJack

Molly's had fun with most of the things we've tried, which isn't much in fairness because right now our real focus is still getting a handle on her reactivity. She LIKES agility and is good at it, loves tunnels in particular (all she's seen so far except jumps and a plank on the ground). She gets excited and has lots and lots of fun when she figures out that there's a game to be played and work to be done. She is outright INTENSE about her balls and fetch and I think if she ever gets her crap even a little bit together she'd LOVE flyball like crazy (and it's my only alternate sport here, though she's still too young for it). I might someday suck it up and do the driving necessary to try sheep, I don't know.

She just. Turns on and lights up in a way that kind of gives me chills when it comes to the disc stuff. I don't think I'll ever do anything with it competitively, wouldn't know where to start, but she just.... is a different dog when she's playing with it. Just so completely happy and focused and ON. I wouldn't even know where to begin doing it seriously and that's not really something I'm even considering, but I don't think it'll ever not be HER thing or not be part of our lives on some level. 

Kind of like Kylie and silly tricks, actually. Disc is just where she's got her whole heart and whole brain in synch and it's GORGEOUS.


----------



## Laurelin

I should have gotten a video of Hank coursing. The sight hound people were a little apprehensive since we hadn't tried it before and they generally recommend doing a fun run first (it's cheaper) instead of a trial. But the second he saw the bags he was totally into it. Shrieking and screaming and just so excited. He would have gone again and again.


----------



## Laurelin

So um... Hank intro to odor?

Yeah he's already doing small exterior searches. On just odor. In one session.

WHAT?

I kind of feel like he's a mad genius. But seriously after the first couple times jumping over the boxes (because obviously) he just got the game. 

Got that and some weave videos to post in a few. Closed weaves on the left and only first set open on the right. 

This dog makes me feel like a cheater. EXCEPT recall and not pulling on a leash. He sucks at that.


----------



## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> So um... Hank intro to odor?
> 
> Yeah he's already doing small exterior searches. On just odor. In one session.
> 
> WHAT?
> 
> I kind of feel like he's a mad genius. But seriously after the first couple times jumping over the boxes (because obviously) he just got the game.
> 
> Got that and some weave videos to post in a few. Closed weaves on the left and only first set open on the right.
> 
> This dog makes me feel like a cheater. EXCEPT recall and not pulling on a leash. He sucks at that.


Yeah Hank. So happy for you that he's turned out to be such a great dog to do stuff with.


----------



## elrohwen

I was really proud of Watson last night. We went to our usual Rally class and he was on fire for the first two courses. It was the best heeling I've seen from him in class in a while. There was some excitement barking at the beginning (Mom! You're spending too long at the start sign!) and some jumping up and biting at my hand, but I don't mind that stuff if it means he's really excited to be working (and for him, usually obnoxious dog = flashy hard working dog). He also did really well at spirals to the right, which is something we have struggled with. I think a lot of his lagging problem is my own body language so I've been trying hard not to look at him while my body turns right, because it pushes him back. There were a lot of pivots (every right/left turn sign had the option of doing pivots for more advanced people) which he *loves*

Before our third pass his arch-nemesis, the clumber spaniel, came in. There's just something about this dog that all of the other dogs hate. Even the sweet quiet neutered sheltie boy hates him, so it's not just Watson, though Watson is probably the most vocal about his burning hatred. The first time the clumber was in our class Watson couldn't even function. I actually went outside halfway through the course because there was no point in trying and he was just flailing and barking. The next time we didn't even try doing rally and just worked on attention at the opposite end of the room. Thank goodness the clumber always shows up very late due to his owner's work schedule so we can get some actual practice in before chaos ensues.

But last night, Watson was actually able to focus and do the course with the clumber in the room! Yay! He was distracted at first, and a bit vocal, but once we got started his brain mostly worked and there were even some great moments of heeling. Very proud of him.


----------



## kadylady

Skye pooped in the bathtub sometime between yesterday afternoon and this morning. That was a nice surprise this morning. Guess she thought I could use a little humor in my life at the moment.


----------



## elrohwen

I want to whine for a second about my inability to find private agility lessons anywhere. I looked for a place up north for months and couldn't find anything available evenings or weekends. I've started looking back near home and still no luck. The place we took classes seemed promising and the woman I talked to could do weekends, but when I asked her to pick a date she came back and said only Thursdays at 10am will work. Seriously? Not a single other time? I was even maybe willing to do something early in the morning or late afternoon and skip a little work, but I can't just skip work in the middle of the day.

So then I found another place and sent them emails and nobody ever responded. It's a bigger place with multiple trainers and I used the contact form on their website, but nothing.

First it seems strange to me that it's so impossible to work out private lessons that are not in the middle of the work day. And two, it makes me so mad when peope just don't respond to emails, especially via an official training site contact. As a professional I always respond to emails within a day or so and I find it so strange when dog professionals just don't. It's really not hard to hit "reply" and write one or two lines.


----------



## CptJack

I have actually had so many problems with this - even with a trainer I already use and a facility I go to regularly. I tired for months to rent their arena, which they offer as a service, and got zero response. Setting up private lessons for Kylie I managed TWO before the trainer dropped out of contact. I see her ever week but she just can't seem to keep it together when it's not a group class.

Seriously?


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I have actually had so many problems with this - even with a trainer I already use and a facility I go to regularly. I tired for months to rent their arena, which they offer as a service, and got zero response. Setting up private lessons for Kylie I managed TWO before the trainer dropped out of contact. I see her ever week but she just can't seem to keep it together when it's not a group class.
> 
> Seriously?


Yeah, I just don't get it. I don't feel like my expectations are too high either - you are a professional, you should at least be able to answer emails or keep commitments. You should also be able to offer me other solutions with other local trainers or facilities, since I assume you know people, but nobody has been helpful and I end up doing a lot of pointless google searches.

At this point, our only option seems to be our old facility. The main trainer is not an agility person, but she has jumps and tunnels and things. We did one session off leash over the winter and quit because of holidays and dog shows and whatever. But I know her well, she is responsive, and I am going to start up regular classes there again soon, so it might be the only choice. It's also 10min from my house which means I can rush over there at odd times. I was just really hoping to find a real agility instructor and really work on agility, instead of just generally working on off leash obedience type stuff. I also don't feel like our usual trainer is great at off leash work because she doesn't do agility, and she is a husky person so she doesn't do a lot of off leash activities in the first place. Her boy is doing rally and obedience, but he is naturally good off leash and that's why she's pursued it with him. She's a good trainer and willing to let me try whatever I want, but it would be easier to work with someone who really has experience with exactly what my problem is.


----------



## CptJack

It's frustrating. On one hand I really do understand that a lot of these people have day jobs and other commitments, and that their availability may be limited and responses may be slow. On the other, I should not have to chase you down for MONTHS to try and throw money at you for a service YOU OFFER.

I'm also realizing that I don't... really feel like I'm going to be able to stick with the agility instructor I'm using now as a result of her limited availability and unresponsiveness. She does Foundations/Beginner/Intermediate classes as group classes and those are okay, but to get to the more advanced stuff (and weaves!) or work on problems you have to go to private lessons which she doesn't do reliably, or train it on your own and hope for the best when you hit fun matches and/or free practices for trials where she gives no advice or instruction at all. Now, don't get me wrong: I know that agility is going to require a lot of at home work but I've never done this before. An actual instructor instructing would be nice. 

And I don't even have ACCESS to contact equipment outside her classes and practices unless I buy my own.

I'm going to end up dropping agility, I suspect, just because getting anyone to help me in person at this stage is pretty laughable. She's good! She competes! She COULD teach me to do these things, because she's also a good instructor but she cuts off and becomes almost entirely inaccessible BEFORE I get the last bits of things I need help teaching. Like weaves and independent contacts. I like her, don't get me wrong, she's amazing.

When she's there.

I just... don't get it. She has enough people with this frustration that she could put together upper level classes and have them fill and get paid fairly well for it but for whatever reason it's not happening.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> It's frustrating. On one hand I really do understand that a lot of these people have day jobs and other commitments, and that their availability may be limited and responses may be slow. On the other, I should not have to chase you down for MONTHS to try and throw money at you for a service YOU OFFER.


Yeah, totally agree. You set up a website and told me to contact you, so I'm contacting you. I shouldn't have to chase you down. I got one email back from a place up north a full 2 months after I emailed them. And then when I didn't respond right away to their very generic note, they bugged me again for not responding. Seriously? You ignored my email for 2 months and then only sent me a copy/paste paragraph from your website that I already knew, and didn't answer any of my questions. But now you're upset at me for not responding immediately. Sure.

So I just emailed the woman at the main training place near my house. I realized that I planned to sign up for the FDSA agility handling class (I'll have to buy Part 1 lectures since they're on Part 2 now) and we could use that to structure our private off leash lessons. That way I can work on agility stuff even though the trainer isn't an agility person, and she can help with the basic focus/off leash aspect. 

The place we were taking agility lessons is so nice - they have multiple trainers, great facility, and classes all the way up to advanced. But if your dog is an idiot and can't function in an arena with 6 other dogs standing nearby, you're out of luck and might as well quit. I *know* Watson could be so good at this stuff, but he is not an easy dog who just sticks with me and does whatever I say and we need some out of the box training help, but they want to put everybody into the same class boxes.


----------



## Kyllobernese

I am really lucky considering I live near a small town. I pay $100.00 a year and have access to an indoor arena and all the Agility equipment. I go to Obedience with a group that although there is no instructor, we help each other out and most of them have Open Obedience dogs and are working on Utility. 

Our Agility club has the arena to ourselves for two hours every Saturday. One person who competes and also is a Judge, gives us lots of pointers but is not really our "instructor". That is also included in the yearly $100.00. As all the people from the Agility club are competing we set up different courses so have lots of practice.

We can also go to the arena and practice over the equipment whenever we want as long as there is not something else going on.


----------



## elrohwen

Kyllobernese said:


> I am really lucky considering I live near a small town. I pay $100.00 a year and have access to an indoor arena and all the Agility equipment. I go to Obedience with a group that although there is no instructor, we help each other out and most of them have Open Obedience dogs and are working on Utility.
> 
> Our Agility club has the arena to ourselves for two hours every Saturday. One person who competes and also is a Judge, gives us lots of pointers but is not really our "instructor". That is also included in the yearly $100.00. As all the people from the Agility club are competing we set up different courses so have lots of practice.
> 
> We can also go to the arena and practice over the equipment whenever we want as long as there is not something else going on.


Wow, that is amazing! I pay about $160 just for 6 weeks of classes that don't particularly help me or my dog. Haha. I wish I could just rent the ring cheaply or something, but most people around here don't offer that. I finally found one that did up north, but now I'm moving back down. It would also be more fun to do with people I know


----------



## CptJack

I would be ALL OVER THAT. Our classes aren't terribly expensive -75.00/7 weeks - but still. 

Right now, I'd settle just for just having access to equipment. It's frustrating. I can find somewhere that's more facility with more trainers and classes but it's even FURTHER out and I just can't quite commit myself to seeing it as worth it. Maybe if DH gets another raise. Maybe.


----------



## Laurelin

Huzzah!


----------



## Silly Dog

Nice weaves Laurelin. I don't do agility but they look good to me and the dog looks happy. Gotta love the spotty dogs.


We had such a rotten class last night...a group manners class. Sage knows all of the behaviors, we're doing a lot of 'easy' classes to work on her reactivity/arousal issues around other dogs. So the behaviors are easy but the calmness and self control aren't always. There is one Golden in the class that tends to set her off, and last night was worse than usual. One step forward, one step back. Not a big deal in the big scheme but it was sure frustrating. I actually ran my pouch out of the chicken I was using as treats from doing so many emergency redirections. Boy was she amped.

It's an interesting thing, we're doing essentially the same class at two different facilities with two different trainers. Facility A, last night, is a very big space with 8 dogs and flexible fencing. The dogs can see one another but never approach closer than 10' for neighbors and 30' or 40' for dogs further away. Facility B is a tiny fifteen by fifteen space with 4 dogs right on top of each other sharing the space. If a dog demos a stay in the middle it's wagging tail whacks your dog's butt more often than not. And Sage is much, much more relaxed at facility B. She likes going to both and can't wait to go inside, but it's so much easier to keep her arousal from spiraling out of hand at B.


----------



## dagwall

Kyllobernese said:


> I am really lucky considering I live near a small town. I pay $100.00 a year and have access to an indoor arena and all the Agility equipment. I go to Obedience with a group that although there is no instructor, we help each other out and most of them have Open Obedience dogs and are working on Utility.
> 
> Our Agility club has the arena to ourselves for two hours every Saturday. One person who competes and also is a Judge, gives us lots of pointers but is not really our "instructor". That is also included in the yearly $100.00. As all the people from the Agility club are competing we set up different courses so have lots of practice.
> 
> We can also go to the arena and practice over the equipment whenever we want as long as there is not something else going on.


Very jealous. Would love to have anything close to that, I'd pay close to $500 as a yearly fee for that and it'd still be a great deal in my area.


----------



## d_ray

Jazzy has her second training session on Saturday to work with strangers/re-activity to certain people. My husbands best friend is volunteering. He's not a stranger to Jazz, but she hates him. He won't come over anymore because she scares him so hopefully we can work Jazz through it. It should be interesting......


----------



## Silly Dog

d_ray said:


> Jazzy has her second training session on Saturday to work with strangers/re-activity to certain people.


How are you working that problem in the session?


----------



## d_ray

Silly Dog said:


> How are you working that problem in the session?


I'm not sure i understand what you're asking.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs

I am trying to teach Lincoln to fetch and actually got him to bring a ball back to me once (we quit after that LOL), it sucks because I cant use treats, he goes so nutty for them that he wont concentrate on fetching, he will just offer behaviors and get frustrated when I dont give him the treat LOL. So this has to be a no treats exercise.


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## Silly Dog

d_ray said:


> I'm not sure i understand what you're asking.


Sorry. I was trying to ask for specifics about how you were going to work on her reactivity toward strangers and that person. Just curious what that training session looks like.


----------



## elrohwen

I finally got an email back from one big facility I haven't tried. They can do private lessons and they have people who do obedience and agility. The downside? An evaluation is $150. For real?! I don't even know if they will meet my needs and I have to pay that much to find out. I'm really conflicted. It's the only thing I've found that might work for us but it's painful to pay that much. It's also an hour away which isn't convenient.


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## Laurelin

What does the evaluation cover? I've never heard of anything like that?


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> What does the evaluation cover? I've never heard of anything like that?


I don't really know exactly. I did call them up and talked to the owner of the center. Her immediate thought was that he needed to be trained with the ecollar if our problem was off leash work. After we fixed that foundational issue we could train with the primary agility person who trains all positively. She didn't think we could fix the running away and lack of recall without some kind of aversive.

A year ago I would've balked, but now that I've pretty much come to the same conclusion on my own and bought an ecollar a month ago, I'm ready for some professional help with it. The trainer seemed horrified that I had bought one myself and complained about people ruining dogs with ecollars, so I don't think they're going to zap him until he's shut down. I do need professional help with the collar and hadn't been able to find anyone until now. Now that I've done a few sessions I don't have any fear of ruining him since I'm using it on such a low level, but I'm afraid I won't be effective with it either and it will be a waste of time and money.

We may be able to start as early as tomorrow. My impression of the evaluation is that it's just an introductory lesson. They probably get people who show up once, learn a few things, and never come back again, so maybe the high price is to compensate for that and once you are a regular you pay a more normal fee. No idea, but I don't have any other options right now.

I have seen something similar at another place where you had to pay $50 or something to show up and take a test (sit, down, stay, etc) to see which class you fit into, but that's not quite the same as this.


----------



## d_ray

elrohwen said:


> I finally got an email back from one big facility I haven't tried. They can do private lessons and they have people who do obedience and agility. The downside? An evaluation is $150. For real?! I don't even know if they will meet my needs and I have to pay that much to find out. I'm really conflicted. It's the only thing I've found that might work for us but it's painful to pay that much. It's also an hour away which isn't convenient.


Jazzys trainer charged $50 for an evaluation but it was waived if you decide to use them. It was an hour long and she asked all kinds of questions and assessed the severity of jasmines issues. She then gave us an idea of what training she thought we would need and outlined a plan.


----------



## d_ray

Silly Dog said:


> Sorry. I was trying to ask for specifics about how you were going to work on her reactivity toward strangers and that person. Just curious what that training session looks like.


No worries the wording just confused me and I wasn't sure what you were asking. 

We just finished the session. She got us to leash jazz and have treats and stay near the back of the main area of the house. When the stranger rang the doorbell, my husband let him in while I stayed back with jazz. The stranger came in and sat at the front of the house. Once jazz seemed comfortable, we moved closer. After a few minutes, we moved close enough for the stranger to give jazz treats. Stranger is still sitting and jazz is still leashed. We did this until jazz seemed somewhat relaxed. The stranger then stood up and continued to treat. We dropped the leash and the stranger moved into the back of the house and sat on couch. Jazz approached and we continued treating. We then repeated with stranger number 2. 

She did great. She barked a couple times and seemed uncomfortable but wasn't lunging or growling. 

It should have been common sense for me to leash jazz and not let her approach new people right away, but she is generally ok with most people and warms up quickly.


----------



## elrohwen

d_ray said:


> Jazzys trainer charged $50 for an evaluation but it was waived if you decide to use them. It was an hour long and she asked all kinds of questions and assessed the severity of jasmines issues. She then gave us an idea of what training she thought we would need and outlined a plan.


I understand it more if you're getting a behavioral evaluation of something, but it makes less sense to me since I asked for ongoing private agility lessons. I also think $50 is pretty reasonable for a private lesson, so whether they call it an evaluation or just a lesson doesn't matter. But $150 seems steep.


----------



## d_ray

elrohwen said:


> I understand it more if you're getting a behavioral evaluation of something, but it makes less sense to me since I asked for ongoing private agility lessons. I also think $50 is pretty reasonable for a private lesson, so whether they call it an evaluation or just a lesson doesn't matter. But $150 seems steep.


I agree. $150 is super steep. In our evaluation she didn't work with jazz just observed. She's a trainer not behaviourist. She was great though and we've done 2 sessions and she's only charged us a total of $90. 

Something seems fishy about yours. Unless she's like an agility super star or something.


----------



## elrohwen

d_ray said:


> I agree. $150 is super steep. In our evaluation she didn't work with jazz just observed. She's a trainer not behaviourist. She was great though and we've done 2 sessions and she's only charged us a total of $90.
> 
> Something seems fishy about yours. Unless she's like an agility super star or something.


It's a fairly big facility with 8 or so trainers and classes in every sport, so I dunno. Sounds like they can help me though and I haven't found a single other option, so I'm going to meet the trainer and see how it goes.


----------



## d_ray

elrohwen said:


> It's a fairly big facility with 8 or so trainers and classes in every sport, so I dunno. Sounds like they can help me though and I haven't found a single other option, so I'm going to meet the trainer and see how it goes.


Hope it works out. Keep us posted.


----------



## kadylady

Skye had her first off leash, un-fenced adventure on Saturday. We spent the day at my family's lake house (no swimming, lake was still frozen) and it's out in the middle of nowhere, property is surrounded by woods and farm land so the dogs are off leash the whole time. She was dragging a 30' line, but did really great. Her sniffer was running on overdrive, so many new smells and sounds! We went for a hike in the woods, played ball and disc and lots of recall games. She really did fantastic, I was so proud of her. Pretty sure it was the most fun day of her entire short life. We were all wiped out by the end of the day. I can't wait for the lake to unfreeze so they can swim and she what she thinks about that. I'm pretty sure when she sees Luke and Zoey go in, especially after a toy, she won't be too far behind.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs

YEAH!

we took lincoln herding with the cattle they use to rop with here and he did AWESOME he even got kicked (he wasnt hurt) and it didnt put him off at all, if anything it made him more determined! Josefina took years to "turn on" but he turned on right away and even was turning the cattle by the time we quit!


----------



## Kyllobernese

kadylady - just be really careful as lakes get dangerous when they start to thaw and dogs do not realize they should not run out on them. Every year there are dogs drowned because they run out on the lake and go through the ice. We always stay well away from the Lakes at this time of year. Worse if the dogs have run out on it when it is frozen hard in the winter.

Sounds like a real fun time, love to see the dogs running loose and having fun.


----------



## kadylady

Kyllobernese said:


> kadylady - just be really careful as lakes get dangerous when they start to thaw and dogs do not realize they should not run out on them. Every year there are dogs drowned because they run out on the lake and go through the ice. We always stay well away from the Lakes at this time of year. Worse if the dogs have run out on it when it is frozen hard in the winter.


Oh yeah, I don't let them go near the lake when it's like this. We stayed on the backside of the property out in the woods and fields this weekend. The house and tree line separate the lakeside and the field side pretty well so no even wandered towards the lake. But yeah, I'm definitely extra extra watchful of them until the ice is gone. And typically don't go out there much until it is gone, but this weekend just kind of came up and couldn't turn it down.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Not pulling on the leash has been going well (yes we are STILL working on this). Penalty yards still wasn't fixing it all the way. List of things that have not worked: Clicker and treats, be a tree, penalty yards, pulls, and combos of the methods. Each one used consistently on a flat collar for a long period of time without altering method. Each only worked a little or only temporarily. It's like she never even noticed that she was pulling. Ever. No matter what I did. I finally figured out that she probably just thought we were stopping for no real reason. 

So finally.. I put her on a slip lead hoping that would help with the realization she is pulling. I stop when it gets tight and just call her back. It has worked the best so far. She barely pulls at all now. Thank goodness!

In other issues.. squirrels. Her prey drive for squirrels is INSANE. A bird walks in front of her.. she ignores it. A squirrel? Forget life. I don't even know what to do about them anymore because there's no easy way to control the situation. With reactivity you can start so far away.. but squirrels just kinda do what they want and ruin our walks. So.. unless I BUY a squirrel.. clicker and treats just isn't going to fly in real life unless we never walk. I mean I literally have to pick this dog up and carry her away or she strangles herself.


----------



## Kayota

I thought Roxie just plain didn't fetch any more. I mean she quit playing with balls YEARS ago, but I got jealous of the people at the park playing fetch while Roxie just screwed around in the grass so I brought out the treats.

First 15 minutes or so: Roxie stared at me like I was crazy.

Then she started to run around and growl and stuff all playful so I threw the ball. And apparently she did not in fact forget how to fetch.

Awesome day.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Not pulling on the leash has been going well (yes we are STILL working on this). Penalty yards still wasn't fixing it all the way. List of things that have not worked: Clicker and treats, be a tree, penalty yards, pulls, and combos of the methods. Each one used consistently on a flat collar for a long period of time without altering method. Each only worked a little or only temporarily. It's like she never even noticed that she was pulling. Ever. No matter what I did. I finally figured out that she probably just thought we were stopping for no real reason.
> 
> So finally.. I put her on a slip lead hoping that would help with the realization she is pulling. I stop when it gets tight and just call her back. It has worked the best so far. She barely pulls at all now. Thank goodness!
> 
> In other issues.. squirrels. Her prey drive for squirrels is INSANE. A bird walks in front of her.. she ignores it. A squirrel? Forget life. I don't even know what to do about them anymore because there's no easy way to control the situation. With reactivity you can start so far away.. but squirrels just kinda do what they want and ruin our walks. So.. unless I BUY a squirrel.. clicker and treats just isn't going to fly in real life unless we never walk. I mean I literally have to pick this dog up and carry her away or she strangles herself.


I would train leave it, or if she has the command, give it to her and reel her in if she doesnt listen. Once you reel her in and she is still trying to go after them I would stand in front and body block. Josefina's prey drive for squirrels is insane too, and she will leave them alone, off leash if I tell her to, but that was the result of lots of work, though, years of work.

Also Lincoln is going to be an awesome herding dog! he is balls out, no fear, awesome! I tried him on a very docile cow (she was bottle raised) without Josefina's help and he didnt even notice she wasnt there!


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Oh Kairi knows leave it.. and VERY well (she picked up a pizza crust the other day and she let it go when I asked.. and she is a food hound). With squirrels all bets are off. Squirrels are her number one downfall.. moreso than her reactive behaviors which are barely an issue anymore. The problem is how random they are. I can't start at a distance very easily because I never know when they are going to pop up or run in my direction. If I could train her with squirrels being the treat then she would be the most amazingly well behaved dog ever.


----------



## kadylady

Puppy Handstand!!!!!!


We are almost ready to lose the board! I am so ridiculously proud of this trick because it is 100% shaped (and shaping is hard for me!)!! She loves doing this too, if I don't put the board away she will keep running back to it and offering the behavior lol I want to go back to the beginning though and try to get her to backing into the position rather than circling and hopping up. 

Video of her going up into the handstand. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_A1BOGE2q0


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## d_ray

kadylady, that's awesome. Great work. And she looks adorable doing it!


----------



## d_ray

Does anyone ever come across a moment where the solution was so simple that you feel like an idiot for not thinking of it?

So we've been working with a trainer to address some of Jazz's mild issues. One of the things we are working on is her re-activity towards strangers. Well the trainer had us tether her to the back of the house when new people come over and let them sit down. Once she is calm then we let her approach while they give her treats.

Well the treats are barely necessary. The huge difference is simply not letting her charge people at the door. It is so obvious that I feel dumb for ever letting her charge people.


----------



## Laurelin

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Oh Kairi knows leave it.. and VERY well (she picked up a pizza crust the other day and she let it go when I asked.. and she is a food hound). With squirrels all bets are off. Squirrels are her number one downfall.. moreso than her reactive behaviors which are barely an issue anymore. The problem is how random they are. I can't start at a distance very easily because I never know when they are going to pop up or run in my direction. If I could train her with squirrels being the treat then she would be the most amazingly well behaved dog ever.


On the plus side she might really like lure coursing?

We are having a similar issue. Hank loses his mind when he sees squirrels and bunnies. I honestly don't think he's ever going to be ok off leash in wooded areas hiking.


----------



## Silly Dog

d_ray said:


> We just finished the session. She got us to leash jazz and have treats and stay near the back of the main area of the house. When the stranger rang the doorbell, my husband let him in while I stayed back with jazz. The stranger came in and sat at the front of the house. Once jazz seemed comfortable, we moved closer. After a few minutes, we moved close enough for the stranger to give jazz treats. Stranger is still sitting and jazz is still leashed. We did this until jazz seemed somewhat relaxed. The stranger then stood up and continued to treat. We dropped the leash and the stranger moved into the back of the house and sat on couch. Jazz approached and we continued treating.


This is pretty much how we approached it. Now she is a bit verbal (huffs a few times after they come in) but settles down after a few minutes. As long as it's someone I like...funny how she picks up on that. Daughter's BF gotten growled at a bit. Bad from the dog training POV, good from the Dad POV.



d_ray said:


> So we've been working with a trainer to address some of Jazz's mild issues. One of the things we are working on is her re-activity towards strangers. Well the trainer had us tether her to the back of the house when new people come over and let them sit down. Once she is calm then we let her approach while they give her treats.


I'll have to try that. We've tried crating during entries but we got a hysterical dog in a crate.


----------



## Flaming

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Not pulling on the leash has been going well (yes we are STILL working on this). Penalty yards still wasn't fixing it all the way. List of things that have not worked: Clicker and treats, be a tree, penalty yards, pulls, and combos of the methods. Each one used consistently on a flat collar for a long period of time without altering method. Each only worked a little or only temporarily. It's like she never even noticed that she was pulling. Ever. No matter what I did. I finally figured out that she probably just thought we were stopping for no real reason.
> 
> So finally.. I put her on a slip lead hoping that would help with the realization she is pulling. I stop when it gets tight and just call her back. It has worked the best so far. She barely pulls at all now. Thank goodness!
> 
> In other issues.. squirrels. Her prey drive for squirrels is INSANE. A bird walks in front of her.. she ignores it. A squirrel? Forget life. I don't even know what to do about them anymore because there's no easy way to control the situation. With reactivity you can start so far away.. but squirrels just kinda do what they want and ruin our walks. So.. unless I BUY a squirrel.. clicker and treats just isn't going to fly in real life unless we never walk. I mean I literally have to pick this dog up and carry her away or she strangles herself.


*SQUIRREL!* 

Ok in all seriousness, maybe you can try a squirrel toy on the back of a remote control car and a friend making it move while you train?

It's the best my sleepy brain can come up with on how to work with distances and stuff without trying to clicker train a squirrel.


----------



## KodiBarracuda

Flaming said:


> *SQUIRREL!*
> 
> Ok in all seriousness, maybe you can try a squirrel toy on the back of a remote control car and a friend making it move while you train?
> 
> It's the best my sleepy brain can come up with on how to work with distances and stuff without trying to clicker train a squirrel.


But that's brilliant! Buy a squirrel, clicker train it, put it in a sit stay and then get the dog. Teach the squirrel come and sit (so you can call it closer to you when the dog relaxes but can stop it at a safe distance before the dog is over threshold). Easy peasy right? End result is a not squirrel crazy dog and you'll be the talk of the neighborhood with your new cool well trained pet squirrel!

I'm actually just posting to subscribe  but the idea of having a pet squirrel is super cool. Their tails are amazing.


----------



## CptJack

So, we're in the thick of agility 'season' in this area, though calling it a season is silly since it's only about 3 months total, and we missed 3/4 of March. 

We've got agility practice every Thursday in April with Kylie, and there'll be practices sometime through May, too. I'm thinking about bringing Molly in a crate to one in the middle, depending on how she's doing when classes restart Tuesday (same foundations, rather than new material but that's okay). I feel like I'm kind of girding my loins for that one; reactivity crap just exhausts me. My 'big' goal is to have her be able to do the recall exercises in class. We'll see how it goes. The plus is I am now 900% sure she has no desire to eat another dog and there is no aggression at all there, just a whole lot of frustration. 

...for both of us, but hey.


----------



## jade5280

Thanks to some Mcdonalds chicken nuggets and French fries I was able to clip ONE of Ryker's nails last night.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Flaming said:


> *SQUIRREL!*
> 
> Ok in all seriousness, maybe you can try a squirrel toy on the back of a remote control car and a friend making it move while you train?
> 
> It's the best my sleepy brain can come up with on how to work with distances and stuff without trying to clicker train a squirrel.


Hah! That's an interesting idea. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure my dog can tell when a squirrel is not real! She would just be trying to chase the car because its a fun toy! I sure would have fun with it though..


----------



## Laurelin

Still think you should embrace the crazy prey drive and lure course.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Laurelin said:


> Still think you should embrace the crazy prey drive and lure course.


I know nothing about lure coursing and don't know if we have any of that around here. Not to mention I think Kairi would really hurt herself because she isn't the most graceful! Haaa. But I would like to see her fly.

Edit - Hmmm.. might have actually found something. There's a dogfest near me in June with a bunch of different demos and I might be able to try some things out.


----------



## Silly Dog

So we finished up our 4th manners class this week and Sage continues to do whatever we ask with a lot of energy and flash and enthusiasm. She also continues to be unable to relax at the facility where greeting or buttsniffing the other dogs is not an option. The movement of other dogs around her makes her orient to them and start the tell dog/alert sequence of behavior. She will reorient when you ask but it is still a pretty low threshold. 

Our goal with her has been to eventually get into one of the freestyle classes here and work at that but it's tough right now to see how we'll ever get to the point where she stays focused in a room full of moving ungreetable dogs and no barriers. So we're going to do another manners class in may to keep working on desensitizing. In the meantime we'll go practice ignoring moving dogs next to the dog park.

I have to remind myself how far she's come since we got her. Her early behavior was enough to make other dog owners duck their heads and hurry past.

I also have to wonder if it's fair to her, although she does pull like crazy to get inside the training center. I would appreciate anyone's thoughts. Keep plugging away? Meds? Take up solo wilderness freestyle?


----------



## CptJack

My thoughts are that dogs who are over threshold are unhappy and teaching them coping skills is very fair to them - but also that sometimes meds are necessary and sometimes owners need a break. That's okay too.

and um

http://www.dogscandance.com/DogsCanDanceChallenge.html

you can absolutely do freestyle without group classes or competitions.


----------



## Canyx

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> In other issues.. squirrels. Her prey drive for squirrels is INSANE. A bird walks in front of her.. she ignores it. A squirrel? Forget life. I don't even know what to do about them anymore because there's no easy way to control the situation. With reactivity you can start so far away.. but squirrels just kinda do what they want and ruin our walks. So.. unless I BUY a squirrel.. clicker and treats just isn't going to fly in real life unless we never walk. I mean I literally have to pick this dog up and carry her away or she strangles herself.





OwnedbyACDs said:


> ...but that was the result of lots of work, though, *years of work.*


Yeah this.

I met a person with a squirrel-crazy Terv once. Pretty much as you described. What he did was he took the dog out into a big open space with lots of oak trees... Squirrel highway, as you can imagine. And he just sat there with her, the dog restrained. NOT held to the ground or manhandled, but NOT allowed to lunge and go crazy. The dog was shaking like mad because all the squirrels were around. Repeat the situation ad nauseum across multiple days... Reward the instant the dog calms even slightly in that situation. Reward with something low key, like praise or a treat. 
This dog is STILL prey drive crazy, probably would STILL react if a squirrel bounded across the sidewalk right in front of you, would STILL chase a squirrel to the ends of the earth if given half a chance... But at least the intensity of the reaction isn't endless now. Like, squirrel appears and the dog reacts, but a moment later continue on the walk as normal. Short of shocking the death out of a dog with a collar... I think this is great progress to make with this kind of dog.


----------



## Canyx

Also, yeah, I would be doing as Laurelin says and taking advantage of the prey drive... Lure coursing, or buying furs/tails for flirt poles.

Oh look, squirrel tails for $3 
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Squi...=GoogleProductAds&WT.z_mc_id1=03435370&rid=20


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## Silly Dog

CptJack said:


> http://www.dogscandance.com/DogsCanDanceChallenge.html
> 
> you can absolutely do freestyle without group classes or competitions.



Interesting, I'm going through their materials. Thank you.


----------



## kadylady

Got it!!


----------



## CptJack

Silly Dog said:


> Interesting, I'm going through their materials. Thank you.


I haven't done much with it, but I know a couple of people who participate regularly and have been pretty happy. So, take it for what it's worth.

Either way, there are options if you (or the dog) need a break.


----------



## Silly Dog

Possibly both of us. We have two more weeks in the other class, but it's the one where she's more relaxed. Then a few weeks off and we can get a backpacking trip in.

How on earth do you juggle 5 dogs?


----------



## CptJack

A really involved and supportive husband and a 16 year old kid who also is into the dogs? Also a fenced yard, good off leash opportunities and reliability. 

Honestly, it's not bad. Jack and Bug are about 98% my husband's dogs - not that I don't love them and he doesn't love 'my' three, but they're pretty glued to him. They're also older dogs, who are fairly low energy and low maintenance and would really prefer to cuddle and sleep on people than do anything too wild. That leaves Kylie, Thud and Molly who are under 3, and of those 3 only Kylie and Molly are interested in/benefit from any kind of real dog-sports type activities (Thud is not built for it mentally or physically). 

Fewer dogs would mean I did more classes at a time, maybe, and would probably spend more time training and have them further along than they are, but honestly once the basics are there and they're worked into routine it's not bad. I do suspect 'two dogs in agility training and competing' is going to be a bigger pain than 5 dogs total, though.

And not gonna lie, Molly's reactivity is a bigger energy suck for me than all of everything else combined. That crap is TIRING.


----------



## Silly Dog

CptJack said:


> And not gonna lie, Molly's reactivity is a bigger energy suck for me than all of everything else combined. That crap is TIRING.


Lol, I know what that's like. When she used to have her big blowups it was physically and mentally draining. 60 lbs of spinning panicky teeth on the end of a leash.


----------



## elrohwen

We went to our $150 "evaluation session" with the new trainer and it was good! He's an IPO trainer and while he's not against corrections, he's primarily about building motivation and not forcing the dog, which is perfect for us. I don't think 100% positive was working, and my one try with more coercive training was awful. We had a two hour session and talked a lot about drive building, and once the drive is there layering in corrections lightly so he learns what they mean and how to turn then off without making him shut down or worry about them. We didn't even get out the ecollar, though we discussed it. At that time in the training room an ecollar wasn't necessary.

Watson was super flat, low energy, low drive. He's been like that sometimes in new places where I've tried to train, and the one time he was like that was at the trainer who used a lot of corrections, which I'm sure didn't help. The trainer definitely thought he was super calm and low drive by nature and maybe wouldn't be appropriate for sports, but I had to tell him that multiple trainers have asked "does he ever sleep?!" I think he was unsure and a bit shut down, though he perked up towards the end.

The trainer thinks that a big part of our problem may be that in most of our classes, being "wild" was frowned upon and I spent a lot of time trying to get him to calm the heck down. But now if I want him to work, he needs to be up and in drive, but he's learned not to act like that in public. At home I can get that easily, but in training facilities I can't. Watson barely seemed food motivated at the training facility, when I know he's actually quite food motivated. 

His recommendation was to make Watson work for his food every day. If he wants to eat, he has to work for me. He thinks this will get his motivation up and make him more able to work in a new place. We'll meet again in a couple weeks.

I have to admit that I'm excited to train somewhere that encourages wild and crazy and wants to focus that behavior. I will definitely be bringing my next puppy for classes at this place. They have a variety of different trainers for different sports too.


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## Silly Dog

Can Watson refocus quickly once he reaches wild n crazy? Or is he done for 5-10? 


I use an ecollar with Sage as well, although not in classes and not for learning anything new. In our case it was for not chasing horses and deer. Either of which could get her or a rider killed. She has the freedom she does because of that. I am convinced that nothing on earth was as reinforcing for her as chasing once she got in that mode.

A cool thing i found out though is how useful the BEEP and VIBRATE collar modes are. We use them out hiking all the time even though I dont use the shock feature any more. Beep for recall from really long distance and vibrate for out of bounds. The vibrate is a very mild aversive, but it works beautifully.


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## kadylady

Moderation ate my puppy handstand picture  so this is going to show up twice.

Ta Da!!



Also, we started foundation for a rebound in the disc class I'm doing with her. Mostly just me sitting on a really low stool and having her jump up then down, which she thought was cool, since we've been working hard on not jumping lately.


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## elrohwen

Silly Dog said:


> Can Watson refocus quickly once he reaches wild n crazy? Or is he done for 5-10?
> 
> 
> I use an ecollar with Sage as well, although not in classes and not for learning anything new. In our case it was for not chasing horses and deer. Either of which could get her or a rider killed. She has the freedom she does because of that. I am convinced that nothing on earth was as reinforcing for her as chasing once she got in that mode.
> 
> A cool thing i found out though is how useful the BEEP and VIBRATE collar modes are. We use them out hiking all the time even though I dont use the shock feature any more. Beep for recall from really long distance and vibrate for out of bounds. The vibrate is a very mild aversive, but it works beautifully.


He does his best work when he's crazy. When he's calm he dosen't flail around and bark at other dogs, but he also doesn't work either. It's a fine balance. 

In a new obedience class around new dogs, he's loud and flailing because there are dogs and that's super exciting. But eventually he starts to ignore them and then becomes whiny and crazy because he's interested in working, and that's when he's at his best (though to most people he probably still seems obnoxious). Our struggle is chanelling his wildness towards me instead of outward towards the environment, and getting him to turn it on when I ask.

The point of the ecollar was not really for the class, and definitely not learning new things - just for recall really. He's good at knowing what he can get away with when he's off leash, and when he's tracking something it's impossible to stop him no matter how much recall foundation work we do.


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## Silly Dog

Re collar/recall...

We used it to proof the recall too. She had a great recall 99% of the time but there was one time up in the national forest in PA. We were hiking, she got on some scent and was about to go over the ridge 1000 feet from us. I gave her recall, did a big dance facing the way I wanted her to go, made happy noises. She stopped, turned toward me, and you could see the thought bubble saying 'f that' as she bounded away over the hill. Next seen 40 minutes later and looking deeply satisfied. At that point I decided we needed a proofed emergency recall.

As a side benefit, she now also recalls from fence running the mini horses. Much to the minis irritation. They may be dogs too. Neither of us quite sure.


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## elrohwen

Silly Dog said:


> Re collar/recall...
> 
> We used it to proof the recall too. She had a great recall 99% of the time but there was one time up in the national forest in PA. We were hiking, she got on some scent and was about to go over the ridge 1000 feet from us. I gave her recall, did a big dance facing the way I wanted her to go, made happy noises. She stopped, turned toward me, and you could see the thought bubble saying 'f that' as she bounded away over the hill. Next seen 40 minutes later and looking deeply satisfied. At that point I decided we needed a proofed emergency recall.
> 
> As a side benefit, she now also recalls from fence running the mini horses. Much to the minis irritation. They may be dogs too. Neither of us quite sure.


Yeah, I'm just to the point where I don't think any other recall work is going to make him recall off of a deer trail. And beyond that, even at an agility place he will zoom off and ignore me. He *knows* what recall means, we practice every single day, but he knows that he's off leash and that he can do what he wants. I get that he may be stressed about something, but we can't work on that if he won't stay with me for even one second. At some point there has to be some way to follow through with him and the only way I can think to do that is an ecollar. Not saying I want to use an ecollar for agility or obedience work, but I think that something about our training needs to change in order for him to focus off leash in a situation like agility and obedience. I think working on the ecollar recall outside of sports training situations, and then working on other tactics in training sessions, will help bring it all together.

What also worries me about his recall off of prey or scent is that he doesn't even look back. I have seen him blow off recalls a couple times, but when he's that driven to hunt something I don't know that he's even consciously blowing me off. I need a better way to get through to him in those situations.


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## elrohwen

Just thinking out loud here, but he may not even understand that he's supposed to stay with me at training facilities while off leash. He understands obedience style recalls, and I can put him into a stay, walk all over the place, then call and he does the fastest recall into a front ever. So he knows how to come when it's in the context of a structured exercise. I think what he lacks is knowing that he needs to stay with me. At home when we train he's figured that out, but it's a smaller space and much less distracting, so he's bored enough that I'm the only fun thing. I think in training facilities he runs away like "I'm gonna go check this stuff out, Mom! Be right back!" but that's not ok and somehow he needs to learn that. 

I certainly haven't figured it out, but I'm hoping we might finally get the professional help we need. He is so used to doing what he wants when he wants (though I've certainly tried to make that not the case) that he doesn't consider that it may not be allowed in that situation. 

We probably wouldn't have this issue if he had been off leash in training facilities earlier, but that wasn't an option that we had. I was even told that the agility class at one place was off limits for us until he was reliable off leash. But how will he get reliable if we don't teach him? I'm just supposed to assume that if we work well enough on leash that he'll be able to do it off leash? Maybe that works for some dogs, but obviously not him.


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## Silly Dog

Elrowhen (sp?). We may be in similar positions re temperament and responsiveness. I need to 3x read what you wrote and think how it compares to us before I can pretend to respond usefully. But meantime I just wanted to say that there is an immense difference between Sage and me off in the woods, and us in a structured class, and us on a trail where other dog/human partners go, and us where no one goes.

It's all such a dance with their instincts and insecurities when you are playing around with training and reactivity. It's quite a dance and there's nothing like it. 

My previous dogs were all gun dogs or field labs bred for hunting and retrieving...they were amazing. Totally driven to fetch ducks you shot, with simple training. Very nice hiking companions. 

These crazy ass dogs with great drive and paranoia...it's always a question of what can you do vs what you can see doing.


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## CptJack

So, back to foundations tonight with a new group of dogs and handlers. 

There was *some* backsliding, but it certainly wasn't all the way back to square one which was nice. She laid down at my feet for a while and actually chilled, was sincerely relaxed at some points, did the recall exercise which I was pretty nervous about.

Downside? She is 1 of 4 reactive dogs in a class of 7. So, yeah. There were definitely points where things went straight to heck and various people scattered to far corners or left through opposite doors to get a grip, including Molly and I, to stop the dogs feeding off each other. 

Overall, though, some progress happened and some progress stuck. I can be happy with that.


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## dagwall

Daphne is a bit reactive, makes adoption events oh so fun. Being oh so sweet greeting people who stop by, and then she sees a dog she doesn't like or some dog looks at her "wrong" and she starts barking at them. Vast majority of the time the people who were checking her out are pretty much "okay then" and walk on to the next dog who strikes their fancy. 

I don't believe she's actually aggressive, just a bit unsure of larger dogs and just plain rude with some other dogs. She does fine with some of the big chill hounds, I think she gets frustrated with a lot of the ones around her size that she wants to play with and either they aren't into it or she's too rude for me to even allow them that close to each other. So she goes from all happy playful trying to get to them/get their attention to snarky. I try to set myself up away from the big clusters of dogs but still be in a moderately well trafficked area for the people. 

Anyways, I finally started to make a serious effort on working on the re-activity with her this weekend and made some decent progress. If a dog was coming by that I knew she'd react to I got her attention before she could react and asked her from tricks and gave her treats. If she was already reacting I tried to call her away from her barking and treated her for responding, asked for some tricks, more treats. She was getting the idea by the end of the event. At first she was deaf to me calling her name completely if she'd already started to react, had to reel her in and physically turn her away from the dog to get her attention. Slowly but surely she started hearing me call her name and turning to see what I wanted. 

Being a bit reactive, bad dog manners, mild separation anxiety, not fully house trained, still a bit too jumpy for small kids (does like kids at least), probably not cat safe.... dog you are not going to be easy to get adopted.


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## elrohwen

Coming out of our private lesson, my main task was to make Watson work for every meal, to increase his food drive and desire to work. I'll admit I've slacked off a bit - DH has been feeding Watson breakfast as usual instead of waiting for me to wake up, and there were a couple meals where I just did not feel like training (maybe I need someone to withold my food so I work harder!). I've also slacked on going out to new places and only did one field trip to a pet store.

But I think it might be having an impact! We've done a couple sessions on the driveway and the one today was fantastic. A bit distracted at first, but I played a new moving focus game to start out, and then he was ready to work. I also brought out his favorite food toy. Tons of engagement, jumping, playing, etc. Terrible precision, but I'm totally ok with that. It was a good session. Plus, it's all for kibble!

I'm also impressed that he hasn't had to miss a meal yet, which probably means I'm not pushing him enough. I did put the food away once when he didn't want to focus (in the basement, so low distraction) and he looked so sad. I brought it out an hour later and he was great, so I let him eat.


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## knutt_

Hi all! I'm new here and I'd like to join the group 

My puppy's name's Eryl (4 months) and his biggest issue is his fear of people so I'm trying to desensitise him, not great progress yet though :/ I try to give him a treat every time he sees a person getting closer to us and I know dogs wouldn't eat while under stress, but even when he is not stressed sometimes he'd just turn his head away and refuse getting a treat.

Other thing is that we live with another dog (2 years) and when the other dog's around, my dog either wouldn't listen to me, or will do exactly what I want him to (when I do it with both dogs). The other dog's beagle (and I assume most people here would know what that means) and he'll do EVERYTHING to get food, and this is the time when Eryl will gladly take a treat. I know a lot of people use the non-food-motivated card to excuse their laziness, and I'm not saying Eryl is not food motivated at all, but I'm a bit concerned he'll stop listening to me in the future if it continues that way (getting as a reward something he doesn't really want at the moment).

So I'm resolved to try all means to continue his training and fight the fear, but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to try them out))


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## elrohwen

knutt_ said:


> Hi all! I'm new here and I'd like to join the group
> 
> My puppy's name's Eryl (4 months) and his biggest issue is his fear of people so I'm trying to desensitise him, not great progress yet though :/ I try to give him a treat every time he sees a person getting closer to us and I know dogs wouldn't eat while under stress, but even when he is not stressed sometimes he'd just turn his head away and refuse getting a treat.
> 
> Other thing is that we live with another dog (2 years) and when the other dog's around, my dog either wouldn't listen to me, or will do exactly what I want him to (when I do it with both dogs). The other dog's beagle (and I assume most people here would know what that means) and he'll do EVERYTHING to get food, and this is the time when Eryl will gladly take a treat. I know a lot of people use the non-food-motivated card to excuse their laziness, and I'm not saying Eryl is not food motivated at all, but I'm a bit concerned he'll stop listening to me in the future if it continues that way (getting as a reward something he doesn't really want at the moment).
> 
> So I'm resolved to try all means to continue his training and fight the fear, but if you have any suggestions, I'd be glad to try them out))


What type of treats are you using? 

I think there are two things going on here. He's probably actually too stressed to want food in some situations, but he's probably also fairly low food drive in general. I would start having him work for his meals. Do some training with his kibble at every meal and if he won't eat it, just put it up for a while and try again later. 

One idea for training around strangers is to use increasing distance as a reward. So approach a person, and if he remains calm and responsive to you, praise him and move away from what is scaring him. Do a search for BAT for more info.


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## CptJack

So, Molly in class this week was fine. Like... I really don't know what else to say about it, except that she really was. I think she barked once, when two of the other reactive dogs in class were losing their crap at each other across the way, and she had to be refocused a few times but mostly - meh, she was great. We're redoing the material, and obviously she's more than okay with that. 

But we were also able to add some off leash performance of that material already, had her doing stays before being released and so on. Overall, her performance is finally at a level I'm happy with, in spite of the other dogs. 

I've found teaching her to be 'at rest' between my legs between exercise and walking between them when we're in line is helping ENORMOUSLY with making her feel secure. She was willing to roll over (which she typically refused when stressed), wrestled with me, laid down a few times, was waggy-tailed and happier.

All of that said none of this is generalized at all. She's fine with ignoring the dogs around our house who are in their yards, she's fine with seeing and working around new dogs in the context of agility. She's okay in petstores, now, though not great. Any dog out of place/a known context? Yeah, forget it, she's done and losing it.


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## jade5280

I cut THREE of Ryker's nails this morning without him tweaking out. I've tried desensitizing to the dremel, but he really doesn't like it. I had him lay down and touched the clippers to his nails, treated with chicken liver treats, touched nail, treated, touched nail, treated, then clipped, and gave him big pile of treats. I was able to do this 3 times before I had to go to work. I didn't get much off, but it's better than nothing. Maybe the chicken liver is the trick. I've tried the same approach before and was never able to get more than one nail. He definitely doesn't like being physically restrained or touched when I'm trying to do his nails.


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## dagwall

jade5280 said:


> I cut THREE of Ryker's nails this morning without him tweaking out. I've tried desensitizing to the dremel, but he really doesn't like it. I had him lay down and touched the clippers to his nails, treated with chicken liver treats, touched nail, treated, touched nail, treated, then clipped, and gave him big pile of treats. I was able to do this 3 times before I had to go to work. I didn't get much off, but it's better than nothing. Maybe the chicken liver is the trick. I've tried the same approach before and was never able to get more than one nail. He definitely doesn't like being physically restrained or touched when I'm trying to do his nails.


Dremel isn't the answer for everyone. Some dogs hate clippers and some hate dremels, one is usually better than the other so just work with whichever he finds least offensive. 

Current foster girl will grudgingly let me clip her nails, she does NOT like the dremel. So I finally bought a nice pair of clippers and use them on her and the dremel for Jubel.


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## jade5280

dagwall said:


> Dremel isn't the answer for everyone. Some dogs hate clippers and some hate dremels, one is usually better than the other so just work with whichever he finds least offensive.
> 
> Current foster girl will grudgingly let me clip her nails, she does NOT like the dremel. So I finally bought a nice pair of clippers and use them on her and the dremel for Jubel.


I've tried to use the dremel with Gypsy too and she is just really scared of the noise. I can clip her nails no problem so I'm just going to stick with that, but I hate the sharp edges it leaves. I've manually filed them before but her nails are like rocks so it takes too long.


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## dagwall

jade5280 said:


> I've tried to use the dremel with Gypsy too and she is just really scared of the noise. I can clip her nails no problem so I'm just going to stick with that, but I hate the sharp edges it leaves. I've manually filed them before but her nails are like rocks so it takes too long.


If you just want to smooth some edges you could just take it really slow with her. Turn it on a good distance away from her, treats, off. Repeat two or three times and be done for the day. Very slowly up the threshold getting closer and keeping it on longer before treating. She'll get used to it and smoothing edges just takes a quick touch and shouldn't be too big of a deal once she's okay with the sound...maybe. haha


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## elrohwen

I'm super proud of Watson this week. He's always been excited by other dogs and a little obsessed with them, and in the past year it ramped up and he became reactive on walks. Not terrible, but I had to treat for every dog that passed, work on LAT and leave it, etc, and certain dogs were still too much for him.

This past week he's been out on the walking trail and has been so good! I have still been treating heavily when we pass trigger dogs (like GSDs) and he did bark at an intact male (the wind was blowing his smell right at us I guess), but otherwise he's been completely unconcerned about every other dog. I barely give him any treats now because he's more interested in continuing to sniff than in staring at other dogs. Yay! 

I think the main change is that in winter was might see one dog a week, so a dog sighting was much more exciting for him. Also when there are no other people out he can see the dog from far away and the excitement builds. Now there is so much going on, and so many bikes and people who block him from seeing too far ahead, and he just doesn't care. 

I was a bit worried about walking a puppy with him while he still needed so much attention on walks, but this is fantastic.


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## gingerkid

jade5280 said:


> I cut THREE of Ryker's nails this morning without him tweaking out. I've tried desensitizing to the dremel, but he really doesn't like it. I had him lay down and touched the clippers to his nails, treated with chicken liver treats, touched nail, treated, touched nail, treated, then clipped, and gave him big pile of treats. I was able to do this 3 times before I had to go to work. I didn't get much off, but it's better than nothing. Maybe the chicken liver is the trick. I've tried the same approach before and was never able to get more than one nail. He definitely doesn't like being physically restrained or touched when I'm trying to do his nails.


Snowball will really only let me cut his front nails if I have hot dog with me.


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## jade5280

gingerkid said:


> Snowball will really only let me cut his front nails if I have hot dog with me.


 I've tried vanilla ice cream, cheese, peanut butter, hot dogs, French fries, chicken nuggets, etc, etc. 


dagwall said:


> If you just want to smooth some edges you could just take it really slow with her. Turn it on a good distance away from her, treats, off. Repeat two or three times and be done for the day. Very slowly up the threshold getting closer and keeping it on longer before treating. She'll get used to it and smoothing edges just takes a quick touch and shouldn't be too big of a deal once she's okay with the sound...maybe. haha


 Yeah I'm going to keep trying to work with her on it. She's super food motivated so I'm sure it won't take too long.


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## CrimsonAccent

Started Pet Manners 3 with Cupcake tonight!

We started with a focus exercise. We walked a few feet, ignored the dogs and c/t when they turned toward us/made eye contact. Did walking past distractions (toys, a bowl of tripe, hairbrush) with the aim of having an automatic leave it with no prompt. Worked on ...delayed reward (I don't remember the exact phrase) basically put the treat bag down, walk with your dog a few feet, have them focus on you. Click/mark, run back to treat bag. Escalate to additional behaviors/longer duration before rewarding and running back. And working on staying with our back turned. So sit/down and stay. Turn back, walk away, walk back. 

Definitely appreciate this class for the detail of it. Like, duh, my dog is used to holding a stay with eye contact. Not when I'm not watching.

Homework is just to continue the exercises.


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## dagwall

CrimsonAccent said:


> Started Pet Manners 3 with Cupcake tonight!
> 
> We started with a focus exercise. We walked a few feet, ignored the dogs and c/t when they turned toward us/made eye contact. Did walking past distractions (toys, a bowl of tripe, hairbrush) with the aim of having an automatic leave it with no prompt. Worked on ...delayed reward (I don't remember the exact phrase) basically put the treat bag down, walk with your dog a few feet, have them focus on you. Click/mark, run back to treat bag. Escalate to additional behaviors/longer duration before rewarding and running back. And working on staying with our back turned. So sit/down and stay. Turn back, walk away, walk back.
> 
> Definitely appreciate this class for the detail of it. Like, duh, my dog is used to holding a stay with eye contact. Not when I'm not watching.
> 
> Homework is just to continue the exercises.


A level of proofing on stays I hadn't considered until I was in a basic obeidience class with a dog who already knew the material and the instructor reccomended it was walking around the dog. I could turn my back and walk away from Jubel and he'd stay put, I could even leave the room and he wouldn't move. I walk directly behind him and he'd stand up and turn himself around to face me. So while most of the class was working on teaching a stay or simply building duration/distance I worked on Jubel not turning around when I went behind him. 

It is interesting to see what "rules" dogs apply to thing they've learned you didn't intend. He'd been taught sit and down before I got him but his sit and down were actually come in front of you and sit/down instead of doing so where he already was. Hadn't ever thought about it until someone mentioned something similar on the forums at some point. That became a new goal, re-teach the "rules" of sit/down/stand to be do it where you are, not come over to me and sit/down/stand. Wasn't easy but we got it, still not perfect though. If I chain through a random combo of sit/down/stand commands he gets a step or so closer each time. It's kinda funny to see.


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## Flaming

only took 2 years to get Manna to walk nice with just her flat collar (She walks nice in her working harness since 6 months, I just made huge mistakes with training on a collar) 

Vitae, despite being the most stubborn dog I have ever met and refuses to work for anything....might actually be making faster progress on this, Hubby was able to walk her today.


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## KodiBarracuda

So, uh, I taught Maisy rebound and she punched me in the throat. Still trying to convince her she doesn't have to run up my entire body then jump off.


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## kadylady

dagwall said:


> A level of proofing on stays I hadn't considered until I was in a basic obeidience class with a dog who already knew the material and the instructor reccomended it was walking around the dog.


It's amazing how hard this is at first for a lot of dogs! I have students do the same thing in my classes, if their dog already has a good stay I ask can you walk around your dog and they still hold their stay? Most are shocked when they can't. 

On an unrelated note....my sweet golden boy is the most frustrating of my crew in terms of training new behaviors. My girls are such hard workers and thinkers and the harder they work the more frustrated I get with poor Luke, who is just like "please show me what you want mama and I will do it, but I really don't want/know how to figure it out by myself" I am trying to retrain our heeling because he clearly does not understand what I want, because I didn't understand what I wanted and how to get it until recently. And I'm trying to do it with as little luring as possible and it makes his poor brain hurt. I know it's my fault, because that's how I taught him most things and so he depends on me to show him what I want vs the newer (to me) shaping that I'm trying to do more of. It is such a test of my patience and I have to be so careful not to show him any frustration. I also have to keep our training sessions so incredibly short and incorporate a lot of easy things that he knows and likes to keep his confidence up, otherwise he shuts down really fast. If I can get decent heeling out of this dog I will be pretty dang proud of us both, because this is hard!!


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## elrohwen

If you're working on heeling with him, I would just go back to luring. Fenzi and every IPO person I've talked to starts heeling with a very obvious lure. Now, I've struggled in fading the lure completely and getting the same heeling, but I couldn't have gotten a heel without it. I don't even know how to shape a full heel - shaping pivoting sure, but shaping head up heel I dunno.

Have you done Precision Heeling? Denise talked me out of shaping pretty early in that class (I took it at Gold) and Watson was much much happier for it.


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## ireth0

That's interesting! One of the first things we worked on when working on stay (with dogs that could generally stay and didn't pop right up) was walking around our dogs. Even before adding distance, if I'm remembering correctly.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> That's interesting! One of the first things we worked on when working on stay (with dogs that could generally stay and didn't pop right up) was walking around our dogs. Even before adding distance, if I'm remembering correctly.


Yeah, agreed. That was one of the first things I we worked on for stays after getting enough duration.


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## CptJack

Thud, and to a lesser degree Bug and Jack, have pointed out some enormous holes in my skills as a trainer than I wouldn't be aware of if I only had Kylie and Molly. The reality is, Kylie and Molly have a way of figuring out what I want and then giving it to me. I can fumble, struggle, have bad timing and no precision, use inconsistent command names, use one command name for 3 different things, giving conflicting verbal and hand signals, and just generally screw it up every way it is possible to screw it up. Those two will _still_ somehow figure out what I am asking for and give it to me. They generalize immediately and easily. Stay you can walk around? Performing where they were? Kylie and Molly got it instantly and with no effort on my end. The others? No. Taught the same way, in the same order. 

I can't do that with the boys or Bug. I have to actually put work in, lay down the foundations, adapt and adjust to their needs. It's frustrating, but honestly it's something I sort of need, I think. Otherwise I think I would be a little insufferable about what a good trainer I magically am now, instead of recognizing that Kylie and Molly are just dogs who read my mind AND like me ;-)


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## Kyllobernese

I bought a Dremel but have never used it. Kris was always hard to clip her nails until I started doing them with her standing and just lifting up each foot like you do when you are cleaning out a horse's hoof, and she just stands there. She just did not like having them done while she was lying down. So I now have a brand new Dremel for sale as my little dogs have always been good about just lying there and letting me cut their nails so don't need it for them.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> If you're working on heeling with him, I would just go back to luring. Fenzi and every IPO person I've talked to starts heeling with a very obvious lure. Now, I've struggled in fading the lure completely and getting the same heeling, but I couldn't have gotten a heel without it. I don't even know how to shape a full heel - shaping pivoting sure, but shaping head up heel I dunno.
> 
> Have you done Precision Heeling? Denise talked me out of shaping pretty early in that class (I took it at Gold) and Watson was much much happier for it.


No, I would not say that I am shaping the heel, my shaping skills are not good enough for something like that lol I wouldn't know where to start with that either. I am working through the PH lectures right now, while following along with Heeling Games. What I'm trying to be conscious of though with him is to not rely on the luring with food for very long and to start fading the food from the lure as soon as possible. He can get a little over exuberant with the food lure and then he doesn't really think about what he's doing, just OMG FOOD! But I think I may be going too fast for him. I'm trying to get him targeting my hand (so still using my hand as a lure) and then bringing the food to my hand, but I think he's not understanding targeting my hand yet. Last night I went back to the very beginning, with the food lure, did a few reps and then got some success without the food in my hand lure, so I think maybe if I do that at the beginning of our sessions for a little while longer it will help solidify his understanding. I know I was moving too fast for him. I started this with the girls at the same time and they got it fast and are totally moving along at a different pace than him and it's hard for me to stay slow with him. Just makes me a better trainer in the long run though right?!


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## elrohwen

I would use pocket hand instead of hand touches (not sure if that's what you meant by targeting your hand). You can get the food out of the pocket hand quickly, but still give him a very precise lure with your hand. Just make sure he clearly understands the pocket hand concept with food in a stationary position before you try to move.

How is he with pivots? And can he come to heel position without help? I think doing all of those things in PH before even trying to take one forward step is important. It sounds like you're just going to fast for him and he doesn't understand the little pieces yet to be able to put them into all of heeling.


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## kadylady

CptJack said:


> I can't do that with the boys or Bug. I have to actually put work in, lay down the foundations, adapt and adjust to their needs. It's frustrating, but honestly it's something I sort of need, I think. Otherwise I think I would be a little insufferable about what a good trainer I magically am now, instead of recognizing that Kylie and Molly are just dogs who read my mind AND like me ;-)


Yes this is exactly it! Skye reads my mind. Zoey is more moderate in between the other 2. But yeah, I started this new heeling thing at the same time with all 3 of them and the same steps and the girls are just breezing through. Granted Zoey somehow already had a pretty decent heel, that I apparently somehow taught her somewhere down the road lol But it will definitely be Luke that makes me the better trainer when we get through this.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> I would use pocket hand instead of hand touches. You can get the food out of the pocket hand quickly, but still give him a very precise lure with your hand. Just make sure he clearly understands the pocket hand concept with food in a stationary position before you try to move.
> 
> How is he with pivots? And can he come to heel position without help? I think doing all of those things in PH before even trying to take one forward step is important.


I am using (or attempting lol) pocket hand, when I say target my hard I guess I mean that I need him to actually move towards (or target) the pocket hand, rather than just starring at it. Food in pocket, yes nose go right there, food not in pocket, nose looks at me like "wut?" But I know I have a serious lumping problem (lumping vs splitting) and I'm trying to move too fast. Sunday I was trying to do too much and trying to do it with motion. Last night I stopped even thinking about moving and did a few reps with food in my pocket hand, did some play, did a few more reps of food in pocket, then asked without food in pocket and did get a couple and reward by bring food from right hand into the pocket. So I know I HAVE to slow down.

He's pretty good with pivots, we did a lot of work on that in the fronts/finishes class. He can come to heel without help with the pivot bowl or a platform, but he has a hard time generalizes and will come about 95% into heel position without. I've been trying to work pocket hand without the pivot bowl, but maybe it will help more if I work it with the bowl (which he understand well), then fade the bowl, then fade the food? I think I'm just worried on getting stuck on the food too long, because that's been an issue in the past.

ETA: Just saw your edit, but yes, essentially I meant pocket hand when I said targeting.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> I've been trying to work pocket hand without the pivot bowl, but maybe it will help more if I work it with the bowl (which he understand well), then fade the bowl, then fade the food?


That's what I did and it worked well. The PH was the consistent thing between pivoting on the bowl and pivoting on the floor. And since they understand the bowl coming into PH is easier.

I did have an issue fading the food, but I've had a bigger issue fading the PH. The one thing I did not get from that class was what the dog should target once your hand is gone. I know the IPO people target a toy under the armpit so I'm playing around with this a bit. Watson just doesn't know where he should focus during heeling and sometimes will look at my eyes, but obviously if I'm looking forward that isn't an option, so then he gets confused and just looks away.


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## dagwall

ireth0 said:


> That's interesting! One of the first things we worked on when working on stay (with dogs that could generally stay and didn't pop right up) was walking around our dogs. Even before adding distance, if I'm remembering correctly.


If I had taught stay as part of a class I'm sure it would have been mentioned but I did it myself at home. I went straight from him grasping the idea of stay to adding duration, then duration + distance, then me going out of sight and him still staying. Never occurred to me to circle him haha. I'd also only released from distance (once distance was added) and had to proof waiting for release even if I walked back over to him. That was simple to add, not turning around to keep me in sight took more work.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> If I had taught stay as part of a class I'm sure it would have been mentioned but I did it myself at home. I went straight from him grasping the idea of stay to adding duration, then duration + distance, then me going out of sight and him still staying. Never occurred to me to circle him haha. I'd also only released from distance (once distance was added) and had to proof waiting for release even if I walked back over to him. That was simple to add, not turning around to keep me in sight took more work.


Yeah, I think in a traditional obedience class, they put priority on walking around the dog and coming back because that's how competition stays work. For home training, there's not a lot of reason you would need to walk all the way around the dog back to heel, so I wouldn't have focused on that either if it wasn't part of class.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> That's what I did and it worked well. The PH was the consistent thing between pivoting on the bowl and pivoting on the floor. And since they understand the bowl coming into PH is easier.
> 
> I did have an issue fading the food, but I've had a bigger issue fading the PH. The one thing I did not get from that class was what the dog should target once your hand is gone. I know the IPO people target a toy under the armpit so I'm playing around with this a bit. Watson just doesn't know where he should focus during heeling and sometimes will look at my eyes, but obviously if I'm looking forward that isn't an option, so then he gets confused and just looks away.


I'm definitely going to try that and stick with the bowl until he seems to understand better. It will help keep me from moving too fast as well I think. I'm like the girls, I get bored quick and need to move on to the next step right away. Luke needs to take his time processing and understanding the information.

One of the trainers I work with does IPO and she uses the toy under her armpit a lot and it works really well for her dog (other than occasionally getting bite marks on her armpit lol).

Thanks for the suggestions and talking through it with me, definitely helped!


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## elrohwen

Watson and I are in a crisis of engagement right now. Just a couple months ago he was rocking it at Rally class, acting very excited to work and having a great time. Now he is completely flat and half the time acts like he's never met me before. 

Our lesson a couple weeks ago did not go like I expected, and he was flat and completely unable/unwilling to work with me. So I started having him work for his meals. I did cheat a bit - he got breakfast for free, and I did most of the training sessions inside due to weather, instead of taking them outdoors or on the road. The sessions outside had gotten better, but not great. Today we went out at lunch and it was terrible. He would do one behavior and then disconnect for a minute. Or he would tug, release when asked, and then completely not care about the toy or taking it back when I offered. He is unwilling to heel at all, when just a few weeks ago we were doing full rally courses.

I'm supposed to put his food away and just not feed him if he won't work, and so far he hasn't missed a meal. So maybe I'm too soft and he's not working because he doesn't have to. Twice now I have quit after a minute, put the food away, and not fed him, but both times I've let him try again half an hour later. The first time I did that it worked really well, but today it didn't work at all. I'm afraid to ask too much of him and then punish him by taking away his meal, but then everyone tells me I'm too easy on him and let him decide our agenda so maybe I do need to get tougher. I will try tonight and tomorrow for real - every session outside, no meal if he doesn't want to work.

I just don't know what to do with him any more. The up and down rollercoaster is so stressful for me. After so much work I still have no idea how to create engagement with him, and I just have to cross my fingers and hope it's there, while it shows up and disappears for weeks at a time. He's in such a slump that he doesn't seem to be having any fun or have any life in him unless he's doing whatever thing he wants to do.

We have another private lesson this weekend, and then next weekend we have a 3 day show including rally. I'm feeling completely stressed out by both since I have zero dog. He enjoys training games in the house and we've worked on some new tricks the past couple weeks, but none of that has translated to anything else. I feel so defeated.


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## CptJack

I am kind of hesitate to post any of this and I may very well chicken out, because I don't want you to think I'm being harsh, discouraging, or critical. This is just... stuff I've had to wrestle through myself with Thud, a lot with Jack, and even with Kylie.

It sounds like he's at least as stressed out as you are, and maybe even more so. He sounds, to me, just plain burned out and that you're trying to do too much, too often, and for too long. If he doesn't like tug, and he doesn't want to take it again - put the tug away. If he gives you one behavior and disengages, reward the one behavior to the heavens and stop. If he continues to be disengaged and flat the next day, reward one behavior and stop for the rest of the week. 

This isn't, IMO, the thing that more training classes, more exposure, and more work will particularly help. Not when it's shutting down and being flat instead of just being distracted. I just... you can't force enthusiasm and enjoyment and engagement. You can't tell the dog what that thing he wants to do is, and if he's disengaging from you that often, how little pressure you think you're applying to him? Probably too much for whatever the activity you're asking for him is, even if that amount of pressure or more is fine in another activity/behavior/setting. 

All that said, soft and not biddable is not a great combination and is a really hard one to work with. A hard dog not biddable you can get more demanding, use more aversives, whatever it takes and not have the dog ultimately go flat. Soft and biddable you can stay gentle and still get what you want, reward, build confidence. Not biddable and soft, you're kind of stuck and it's really really hard.

(Jack: Soft, and stubborn, but at least he's not easy to distract)


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## elrohwen

No, it's not harsh. I know that he's feeling stressed out, I just don't know what to do about it. I try really hard not to pressure to much, and I try taking things way way back down to simple (like, give me eye contact, yay! sit, yay!) but once he's done he's done. Making things easier doesn't help at all. Other times I can put lots of pressure on him and he only gets more and more engaged and excited to work. For example, the last time we did work with the ecollar was probably a month ago, and after 5 min of doing simple foundation stuff we worked on heeling and other things and he was so excited. You would think working with the ecollar (which is still new for him) would shut him down, but it wound him up and made him work harder even when we weren't using it any more. But standing on the driveway with a toy and high value treats is way too stressful.

I just don't understand why sometimes he is and sometimes he isn't. Rally class feels like so long ago, but it was only a couple weeks ago and he was pretty awesome. He was distracted sometimes, but he wanted to work most of the time and had energy at least. I didn't do anything different there, except that there were other dogs around which gets his energy up.

He has become so stressy in the last year about random things. Like jumping was super stressy so we quit agility (taking them down to 4" didn't make them less stressy), but I set up jumps at home and did grids and then jumping was awesome! When we added jumps in rally class they were still awesome. Heeling was stressy, then it wasn't, now it's stressy again. 

This week the only training I did until today was in the living room working on rear end awareness and putting a toy in a bowl, and he had so much fun. Then I go outside and ask him to just look at me and he's staring into space like I don't exist. 

We'll go to our lesson this weekend, but I don't really know where to go from here. If he's flat and has no drive to work, there's nothing the trainer can help me do and I guess we just have to quit for a while again. I think I'm going to bring some training props to my lesson and see if he will engage with me doing stuff like that, to at least get some engagement doing something.


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## kadylady

Not sure if I'm anywhere close to the right track, but some thoughts and ideas that have helped me and my dogs.

One thing that I picked up through the various FDSA classes that I have taken with various instructors...is to not beg my dog to work with me. It was definitely addressed in the Play class, Denise pointed out to many people many times, do not beg your dog to play! She would tell them if your dog leaves you don't call them back, wait for them to come back to you. I can't remember which instructor it was that said to eat their cookies (or pretend to). In the past I have begged my dogs to work with me, to stay engaged with me, to play with me. I struggle with engagement with Luke at times. Sometimes he just can't/won't/doesn't want to do it, and the more I beg, the more I ultimately tell him that the lack of engagement is a perfectly acceptable behavior. The last couple months I have been trying really hard to not beg my dogs to work/play. They should want to work and play, if not what's the point. 

With Luke, if he wanders off to sniff (he's particularly bad about doing that at the training buildings, he wants to clean up dropped treats after classes) I will pretend like I'm eating his treats ("oh yum these cookies are sooooo goood"), or will play with the toy like it's the best thing ever, like I'm having a blast without him. Or I will go get one of the girls and start doing something with them and totally ignore him. Or I will put him away. You don't wanna play, that's fine, hear ya go. Get one of the girls out and work them, or go do something else for a couple mins, play on my phone, whatever. It's helping I think. 

I also think incorporating play into our training routine is helping my dogs stay more engaged. It gives them a pressure/stress relief, even if it's just a couple seconds and its something fun and easy. Zoey can get a little flat in agility every now and then and I really think it's because she works so hard to get things right that she sometimes stresses herself. I've started adding little play type things into our routine, as simple as having her do some high hand touches or tossing the treats for her to catch or chase or tossing a toy or let her chase and jump on me. Just something fun and quick and totally stress free in between exercises and repetitions and she seems to be staying higher and more engaged and ready to keep going. It's making a big difference in her driviness to do stuff. She actually barked at me the other day while we were doing agility stuff because she was so excited to do the next thing, like just standing in front of me barking. I was in shock, she has never exhibited that type of enthusiasm for doing stuff before, she is usually very self controlled in agility. And it was so awesome! And I totally encouraged it!

It's also really important for both Zoey and Luke for me to quit before they are ready to quit, leave them wanting more.

Maybe you and Watson need a break from training behaviors and to just play and have fun. While I was working through the play class materials, my dogs were so stress free and engaged and they just loved it. Like just tossing food rewards for them to catch or chase, rather than just popping it directly into their mouth with no excitement, made a huge difference. And it's so simple! I was like...I'm kind of boring huh?! lol It was really nice for all of us. Gave me a new perspective on our training sessions.

Again just some thoughts.  Sorry that you are going through this phase, I can imagine it is very frustrating.


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## elrohwen

We've incorporated a ton of play into training in the past year. Today the only behavior I asked for that wasn't play or his favorite tricks was to set up in heel position, which he would do but in a stressy way (slow, stopping halfway through, looking all over, etc). When we were tugging today, he was excited for the toy, chased the toy, tugged with it, but I could tell there was something off and he would go from playing to 100% disengaged in a snap. So it wasn't real engagement, it was just going along with stuff because I asked him to, which is exactly what he did at the training place 2 weeks ago.

The stuff about not begging your dog to engage is so hard for me though and I've had multiple trainers tell me not to do it, but I can't figure out the alternative or break the habit. I get desperate and I return to begging. That's where I struggle. I do give him too much help, and I do beg him too hard to engage. That's what I was supposed to be fixing by using his meals for training and just putting the food away if he didn't engage. He knows that he only gets food if he trains (and I'm not asking for a lot here - like literally can you do simple tricks out in the driveway and actually make eye contact with me for 1-2 minutes) and he should learn that he either engages or goes hungry. But I haven't been strict enough with it I think. I haven't really followed through to the extent that he understands the consequences of not working. The problem with just putting him away is that he thinks going back in the house is just going back in the house, it's not a consequence or anything, so not getting that meal was supposed to be the consequence (and he eats 3 times a day, so it's not like he's going to starve to death). But instead of putting him in a position where he might fail, I've just been easy on him and done things he likes and wants to do, like fun shaping in the living room instead of engaging outside where he wants to look for deer.

I hope it will help to have a second dog and be able to play them against each other a bit. I have seen him work better in classes with breaks to build up some drive and anticipation, but it's hard to do that by myself in my driveway - what am I going to do, put him in the house and then run around the yard by myself so he can watch? lol But if I could put him away and bring out another dog I think that would help.

I struggle with thinking he's stressy so I should coddle him and only ask him to do what he's offering to do that day. But then I think (and have been told, by multiple trainers) that I need to be tougher on him. Not that I need to force him to work, but I need to show him that working is a fun option but there are consequences for not engaging, instead of just letting him choose to do whatever he wants in the moment and control the situation.

ETA: I do really appreciate the support and the thoughts and the suggestions. I don't really have people to talk to about this stuff in real life and I haven't met a dog quite like him, so hot and cold.

ETA2: And even if we can't do anything outside of the house, we've been having fun with shaping stuff inside and I'm going to try the FDSA agility handling class. I ordered some rubberized mats for the basement so we can actually do active things and jump down there, plus we have his agility area that he likes once I fix the fence.


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## CptJack

> s hard to do that by myself in my driveway - what am I going to do, put him in the house and then run around the yard by myself so he can watch?


You're laughing at this but... Yes? 

Put him away in the house or tether him to a tree, and then sit down and pay attention to your phone. Read a book. Weed a flower bed. Have your husband come out and play frisbee or catch - whatever. He doesn't even have to watch you. That's useful sometimes but not necessary. If he's not engaging, then stop asking him to engage with you and do something without him. ANYTHING without him.

Honestly, the alternative to begging him to engage is still the same, with or without another dog? Stop trying to work with him and do something else. Yes, even in training facilities and classes and I'd go so far as to say trials. Bring a crate, if it's a trial thank the judge, pop him in there, and either chill out yourself ignoring him or fiddle around with your phone or go take a bathroom break.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> You're laughing at this but... Yes?
> 
> Put him away in the house or tether him to a tree, and then sit down and pay attention to your phone. Read a book. Weed a flower bed. Have your husband come out and play frisbee or catch - whatever. He doesn't even have to watch you. That's useful sometimes but not necessary. If he's not engaging, then stop asking him to engage with you and do something without him. ANYTHING without him.
> 
> Honestly, the alternative to begging him to engage is still the same, with or without another dog? Stop trying to work with him and do something else. Yes, even in training facilities and classes and I'd go so far as to say trials. Bring a crate, if it's a trial thank the judge, pop him in there, and either chill out yourself ignoring him or fiddle around with your phone or go take a bathroom break.


I guess having another dog would at least give me something else to do in the same area, and show him how much fun I'm having without him. The thing is that he needs to be separate from me - he *hates* that. I think where I've been getting stuck is that if I bring him back in the house and go in with him, he doesn't think anything of it. But if I put him in the house and then went back outside without him he would be so unhappy. I can't just ignore him, he has to be separated from me. That's something I can try.

ETA: As far as trials go, we won't be entering Rally any time soon after next week. Either we finish our RN, which is it for us since he cannot work off leash, or we bomb and then I'm not going to enter him again for a long time. He was doing so well in rally classes that I thought we were ready, but he showed me last month that he is not. I'm only entered at this show because it's Nationals and it's within driving distance and I felt like I should go this one time.


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## Laurelin

Kadylady covered a lot of my thoughts.

Just curious if there's a way you could film you guys training to post? I know that sounds like a lot but I'd be interested in seeing a 5 minute clip or something just to get a better idea of what you mean.

Another thought: Have you done any recallers like games? I know we talked about that whole deal a while back with varying opinions but my club uses a lot of those games and they work.

Hank has toy drive but sometimes environment supersedes that still. If he outs a toy sometimes he's not going to get that drive up again. What I do is out him and then put the toy up. No more attempt to play. Play only happens when he's engaged. He is still not 100% committed all the time but he is getting more and more duration and more and more value in the toy.

We do a LOT of race to reward type stuff. I like restrained recalls with me catching Hank on a tug. Now we're also racing each other to the tug. I put him in a stay, put the tug on the ground then we both sprint to it. 

I always do tricks before asking things EDIT: Mainly if they're disengaging. I find it can jolt them back into wanting to work if it's their favorite trick ever and easy for them to do. We do rebound with Hank and dance with Mia and Summer. Revs them up and gets them going. 

I think also putting the dog away for breaks is good. I fall into this trap at home since in class you're forced to break while other dogs work. At home it is easy to overwork them. 

Sometimes it is not the right time to train. Example last night. I was wanting to work contacts and we did. Hank disengaged and would not come back to me. I don't know why. I just sat down on the ground until he did come back (eventually). Didn't do anything, just sat there. He came up and then I kind of pushed him and got him wrestling and then he was all into things. We wrestled a bit and as wildly as possible then I did a couple stress free tricks with him. That was it. No need to push him for what we had been doing because I got what I wanted in the end- engagement. Engagement always trumps anything else for me. You won't get a good performance without engagement. 

Hank and I actually just came off a near 2 week training halt (with one class in there). I asked for nothing really. We just played for two weeks. When we got back to it he was very eager and his weave entrances were soooo much better. 

The people I see struggling for years with flat dogs typically move too fast and don't play enough with their dogs. Idk how to explain but there's always pressure in what they're doing at least for their specific dog.

Annnnnnd 2 posts since I read the thread.  I'm probably repeating


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## dagwall

Nationals are down here in MD right? Still planning to get out there to see you guys next weekend. You there Saturday and Sunday or just one day? Gotta plan which day I'll come up.


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## jade5280

dagwall said:


> Dremel isn't the answer for everyone. Some dogs hate clippers and some hate dremels, one is usually better than the other so just work with whichever he finds least offensive.
> 
> Current foster girl will grudgingly let me clip her nails, she does NOT like the dremel. So I finally bought a nice pair of clippers and use them on her and the dremel for Jubel.


What kind of clippers did you get? I just bought these http://www.amazon.com/Safari-Profes...=1428698914&sr=8-3&keywords=dog+nail+clippers and I'm not impressed. They don't cut much better than the cheapo ones that I bought.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Nationals are down here in MD right? Still planning to get out there to see you guys next weekend. You there Saturday and Sunday or just one day? Gotta plan which day I'll come up.


We are def there Saturday. I'm entered for Sunday but there's a chance we'll leave that morning and not show. I'd love to see you there!

Laurelin, I think a big part of our problem in training other than in my house is that I play less. He obedience classes we did were positive but didn't focus on building drive or playing, so I think he got bored and flat and over it. In the house he loves to train and I think it's because we have so much fun and I'm not inhibited. The guy we're training with on Sunday is big into having fun and playing so my main goal is to get him to play with me this weekend. 

I do throw in lots of tricks and favorite behaviors especially if he's getting flat. He just gets weird sometimes where he's decided he's done and while he'll do those tricks even if he won't do anything else, he's not really engaged or happy about doing them. 

We went out this evening to train and it went so so so much better. I brought out a better toy, and I started with a high value treat instead of just kibble. I've realized lately that if I ask for something easy and jackpot it by feeding him most of a meatball in tiny pieces, he's much more excited to continue even for kibble or toys. He did disengage a bit at first but by the end he was totally into it and engaged. 

I think I panic when he just won't engage because I want him to be successful and I don't know how to handle it. Instead of putting him away I end up begging him and that just doesn't work.


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## kadylady

jade5280 said:


> What kind of clippers did you get? I just bought these http://www.amazon.com/Safari-Profes...=1428698914&sr=8-3&keywords=dog+nail+clippers and I'm not impressed. They don't cut much better than the cheapo ones that I bought.


I just bought this style from my vet and I love them!! They cut so much better than my scissor styles ones. She also told me to cut so that it goes from the bottom of the nail to the top and that it helps eliminate some of the pinching. Skye did so much better with these than the others I had.


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## elrohwen

Oh, and I can see if I can get a video of us training. Maybe tomorrow. 

Another thing I realized is that I think wearing the prong makes him flat. He wears it for walks and to group classes just for control really, not as a correction for obedience. When he's high as a kite around other dogs he doesn't care about it, and he runs to me to put it on. But I think after that one horrible mistake of a private lesson when she had me correct him pretty hard a couple times, he doesn't want to be wrong and be corrected. Then he gets quiet and well behaved when I want him to be wild and have fun. Basically if he's high is brings him down a notch, but if he's already flat and unsure it brings him down too much. So we will ditch the prong this weekend.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> I think I panic when he just won't engage because I want him to be successful and I don't know how to handle it. Instead of putting him away I end up begging him and that just doesn't work.


I find that another benefit to putting them away in situations like this is that it gives me a chance to mentally regroup as well. 

What about taking a crate outside to your working area? 

Did you happen to see this blog post from Denise? http://denisefenzi.com/2015/03/21/rewarding-errors/

I read it and some discussion on it in the FB groups and then thought about it when you posted today. Maybe something to play with?


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> elrohwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I panic when he just won't engage because I want him to be successful and I don't know how to handle it. Instead of putting him away I end up begging him and that just doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> I find that another benefit to putting them away in situations like this is that it gives me a chance to mentally regroup as well.
> 
> What about taking a crate outside to your working area?
> 
> Did you happen to see this blog post from Denise? http://denisefenzi.com/2015/03/21/rewarding-errors/
> 
> I read it and some discussion on it in the FB groups and then thought about it when you posted today. Maybe something to play with?
Click to expand...

I could maybe take a soft crate out. I just don't know how to use it because I'm not going to put him away and then sit there on the freezing ground and pretend to ignore him, you know? That works really well in a training facility and if you have another dog to work with, but it seems so impractical for what is supposed to be a 2min session on the driveway in cold weather. I like the idea but I need to figure out how to use it and I haven't yet. I do think another dog will help. Not because it will matter to him more, but because it will give me something else to do and focus on. I want to train and play, he doesn't, no prob, get out the puppy. Right now if he doesn't want to train then I feel frustrated and am not sure what to do. 

I like that post by Denise and I use it a lot when I'm training something new, but I'm not sure how to use it to get engagement. I think I already reward him for lots of poor behaviors just because he's making an effort. Sometimes it helps, but it doesn't help when he's insistent about not wanting to work.


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## Laurelin

I think seeing what y'all are doing may help.

I don't want to step on toes or create a positive only vs corrections debate but if he were mine and training very flat all the time, I would not be using an e collar or prong at all on him. To me it sounds like there could be some fallout he is having from past corrections especially the one session you mention. You can work with over the top but it is really really hard to work with flat. Jmo of course. 

Sometimes (I don't want to go into specifics about other people irl) I see people who really truly think they're being positive and playing a lot but it is tempered with a lot of frustration and determination to get things right. And also an insistence that 'we have been training X long so he SHOULD be ready to do Y exercise' Imo those are the handlers/dogs that really just need to stop and restart and re-work the basics. Often I feel like there is one key that is missing and it has been missing a long time and then it shows down the road. And then there's not an easy fix but you just have to go back and rework from the ground level. 

To me it sounds like Watson may have had too much correction for enthusiasm. So going back and really focusing SOLELY on showing him to play would be what I'd do. I'm talking like REALLY laid back stuff. Like take him for a hike and stuff your pocket full of treats and do stupid things like rewarding him for getting a log or for a nose touch here and there. Like 'I just got a new dog and am working on building a relationship with him' stuff. 

But you have to be FUN. If you're not fun, it won't work. And I mean truly FUN not 'I think I'm being upbeat'. And I don't have a great word of wisdom on how to do that... for me I need breaks. If I see my dog fizzling, sometimes we need to take 2 weeks to just be owner and dog and me expect nothing. Sometimes I need someone to kick me in the butt and tell me to SLOW DOWN (my trainer did some of that last week lol). 

I am not an obedience trainer by far and I have no interest in it. I'm kind of going by the assumption you are wanting to try the agility thing again. Personally I have had TERRIBLE luck with obedience trainers. None talked at all about how to motivate a dog or laid any foundation work whatsoever. I know it's not all of them but I really believe the obedience trainers I've been to would squash a lot of drive for a potential sports dog. That's a lot of why I don't do obedience classes with my dogs. I have seen many fellow agility folk who started in obedience struggle HARD to overcome that stuff. And it's not even that it was harsh, it's just that the trainers didn't teach them how to motivate a dog and their dogs got used to work being boring.

I don't know I may be way off base here and feel free to tell me that. But that's kind of my thoughts. 

I like the rewarding errors post a lot on Denise's page. I think it simply outlines the difference in the sports and the mentality behind a lot of the trainers (not all of course). Agility is all about building confidence and if you don't have that nothing else will work. 

I also do bring a crate out when I train Hank. It gives him a break and gives us some clarity about work time versus not work time.


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## elrohwen

Except for the one bad private lesson with corrections, I've never introduced corrections when he's flat. The ecollar is for recall, and he is high as a kite for deer and things (and we've only done 5 sessions in a positive way). I've only used the prong as a no pull device otherwise. When he's been over the top in classes I've never corrected and only tried to work with him, but I have spent a lot of time trying to get him to calm the heck down because nobody could show me how to channel that over the top stuff. So it's not that I corrected for enthusiasm, it's that he was over the top towards other dogs and I spent a lot of time rewarding for calmness and not going nuts. And in all that time just trying to keep him until control, nobody taught us to play or use that activity in a positive way. Even the agility trainers really had nothing to offer me there. 

Like I said, our sessions at home are really fun and playful and he loves to work, but it's working outside of the house that's a problem. I think he's learned that I'm not fun outside the house. I don't want to sound like things are terrible. In the last rally class people told me constantly that he was so engaged and happy and we were so precise and awesome. So clearly we figure it out sometimes. He's not a flat and over corrected dog like many I've seen. He just only works if he's crazy, and if he's low energy that day or stressed, he basically shuts down. It didn't used to be that big of a deal in classes, but it's come and gone over the past year. I've done a lot of drive building stuff at home, but again the issue of him only working well at home. Clearly that hasn't translated. I will say I don't think it's as bad as I'm making it out to be. It's just not as good as it could be and if I'm going to put in the training time I want to be doing it the best way I can.


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## elrohwen

Since I don't have a good video to show the issue yet, I'll show one of our better videos. So here I was talked into trying off leash, and he did leave me a couple times, but overall the work was really good and he was pretty engaged. The main reason I wanted private lessons two weeks ago was to work on this problem - good on leash, bad off. But instead he shut down on me completely and we didn't get anything like this video. I just wanted to post this to show what he's like when he's working even if he's being a brat and running off. This is happy Watson and I would be thrilled to have this every time.


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## CptJack

I kind of agree with Laurelin, I think. 

Don't get me wrong, I use a prong and the odd correction on Thud, but he's not a dog who goes flat. He gets distracted by his environment, but unlike things you've said about Watson _Thud is not soft_ in any regard and when he checks out he's ENTHUSIASTICALLY checked out. 

Kylie has gone flat. Kylie has gone disengaged. Kylie, toward the end of her string of agility classes, started do things like refusing to leave the start-line or a stopped contact. Or she'd do like... one jump, and then check out again. Stop moving, stare blankly, just totally no enthusiasm. I begged her for a bit to keep going, but ultimately? I left those last classes early, and I skipped our turn in exercises. Then the session ended and I did zero agility from the end of July until the start of March. I spent that entire time doing very, very minimal training of anything but silly tricks in the living room, and building up food, toy, and play drive again. 

I think some of the problem was the heat, and some of it was that there weren't enough dogs in the class so it was constantly her turn, some of it was that the material was too hard for us. A lot of it was what I've talked about some before, in killing whatever enthusiasm and drive she had, by being a perfectionist, by being stressed out and nervous, and by generally being demanding. The combination was just too much pressure for her. 

I don't try and bring Kylie down to control her, because all she learns is that enthusiasm and excitement is undesirable behavior that she shouldn't engage in. No! Wrong! GIVE IT TO ME. 

So at this point, she tears off and makes up her own course, walks to the training field straining at the end of her leash and barking her fool head off in sheer over excitement well. I'll take it. I'll distract her from barking by asking for favorite tricks or wrestling with her or whatever else KEEPS her high, I'll catch her when she comes back to me after taking the a-frame 93 times in a row and point all that energy at the jump she needs to be taking but I *won't* ask her to 'calm down and settle', or do anything at all that makes giving me that in ANY environment aversive to her. 

I've learned that when the choice is between control and enthusiasm, enthusiasm wins. I can bring control back to the game if I'm thoughtful and careful about setting up training sessions, but I *can't* *ever* 'punish', in any regard the enthusiasm for the sake of gaining control and better or more precise behavior. EVER. 

Granted, aversive to her means a no reward marker or me being stressed, but there it is.


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## elrohwen

CptJack, did you see my most recent posts? I've never corrected for being over the top, though his enthusiasm was for getting at other dogs and not actually working. The prong was intruduced recently and only for control I those situations where he was shrieking and flailing and way out of control. If he's out of control it doesn't effect him in the least and like I said, I'm still not using it to correct him for not listening. All calming behavior was taught positively and before the prong existed. But still he never learned to be excited about me in training classes, only that I wanted him to calm down and that other dogs were exciting. No argument that most obedience people no matter how positive aren't doing drive building stuff. 

I don't mean to seem argumentative. I just feel like my comments are being taken to be the norm in our training history and that we've never played or had fun and that's not true. The video I posted was recent and he's having a blast. My issue it that he can be very hot and cold and I don't know what to do when he's cold to get him back. It's not that he's never hot. Heck, he is the craziest dog to be in an obedience class in my region in the past few years. No joke. So to go from insane dog who at least has potential to be great is hard. I'm not used to a low energy flat dog and I'm not sure how to handle it. Though his energy before was usually not directed in a positive manner about 30% of the time.


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## dagwall

jade5280 said:


> What kind of clippers did you get? I just bought these http://www.amazon.com/Safari-Profes...=1428698914&sr=8-3&keywords=dog+nail+clippers and I'm not impressed. They don't cut much better than the cheapo ones that I bought.


Ha, those are the ones I bought. They probably aren't the greatest but work better than the cheap ones I have. Only used them on Daphne who has smallish clean nails. Work well with her, might be okay on Jubel's nails but he will have NOTHING to do with nail clippers on his nails. Dremel is fine, clippers are some kind of evil.



elrohwen said:


> We are def there Saturday. I'm entered for Sunday but there's a chance we'll leave that morning and not show. I'd love to see you there!


Okay then I'll have to come up on Saturday to make sure I catch you guys.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> I could maybe take a soft crate out. I just don't know how to use it because I'm not going to put him away and then sit there on the freezing ground and pretend to ignore him, you know? That works really well in a training facility and if you have another dog to work with, but it seems so impractical for what is supposed to be a 2min session on the driveway in cold weather. I like the idea but I need to figure out how to use it and I haven't yet. I do think another dog will help. Not because it will matter to him more, but because it will give me something else to do and focus on. I want to train and play, he doesn't, no prob, get out the puppy. Right now if he doesn't want to train then I feel frustrated and am not sure what to do.
> 
> I like that post by Denise and I use it a lot when I'm training something new, but I'm not sure how to use it to get engagement. I think I already reward him for lots of poor behaviors just because he's making an effort. Sometimes it helps, but it doesn't help when he's insistent about not wanting to work.


Some more random, unorganized thoughts...

I totally get it. It's much easier for me because I have 2 other dogs to choose from. If it was me with just one dog, I would probably put him in the crate, and then do something like walk a figure 8 heeling pattern, maybe bouncing a tennis ball or tossing a toy around, talking to myself excitedly, or even pretend I'm praising my invisible dog for being the best little dog ever. It sounds ridiculous. It feels ridiculous. But if it gets him interested in what you might be doing without him, it's worth a try. I generally give my dogs 2, maybe 3 attempts, then I would just be done. If he's insistent in not working then just be done. 

Do you give him time to acclimate to the environment before asking for behaviors? Luke is my sniffer. If I don't give him enough time to acclimate to the environment each time he comes back out into it then I end up begging or fighting to be more important than everything else. I release him from his crate and let him sniff and explore the room until he chooses to come and engage with me. Sometimes it only takes a couple seconds, sometimes it takes a couple minutes. During that time I just wait and watch, don't say anything, don't coax him to come to me. If he makes the choice entirely on his own my training session is going to go that much better. If he looks at me from across the room "hi there how's it going?!" If he decides he would like to engage with me "what an awesome dog you are here have some cookies" toss treats, do a little food/personal play, then hopefully he is hooked and we start working. If he doesn't make the right choice after a sufficient acclimation time then back in the crate. If I was outside and needed him on leash I would let him acclimate to the end of the leash for stationary exercises, maybe follow him around within the boundaries of my "work area". And the more distracting the environment, the more acclimation time needed.

Do you do any food play? That was a very important aspect of play that I was missing with Zoey, and is ultimately what helped us learn the other types of play together as well (toy & personal). Until I got that figured out I wasn't really seeing a lot of extra enthusiasm, but once we started food play it kind of opened up whole new levels of play and drive and enthusiasm in her. Granted she's not really one to quit, but she can get flat and stressy. 

I think it's also hard mentally on the dogs when we ask them to be controlled controlled controlled and then engage engage engage with enthusiasm! I did it with both Luke and Zoey and swore I wouldn't do it again with Skye. The difference between them in terms of training and engagement and willingness to try is astronomical. Sure Skye jumps on me and bites me and looks like a hooligan to the untrained eye, but by god does she engage and stay engaged and with intensity. It's hard to build that back up once you've asked for it to be locked away. It's so hard and it takes lots of time and insane amounts of confidence building. Been there, done that, still doing it. 

I really like Laurelin's suggestion of doing the new relationship building type stuff you would do with a new dog. He could be lacking confidence and need help building that. By not asking for behaviors that require control (sit, down, heel) and instead asking for behaviors that encourage movement and engagement (hand touches, through your legs, spin) and keeping the context and atmosphere totally carefree. No expectations, just carefree fun. Maybe that will help clear both your minds, kind of like s reset button?

How old is Watson now? Could he be going through some growing phase? Is there any other personality changes going on? 

I think there comes a point for every dog/handler team that taking a complete and total break is the best option for the team. Heck, it's a yearly occurrence for a lot of teams, especially high level teams. And it's not just for physical benefits. My trainer takes a break with her agility dogs every year for the moths of December and January. She does absolutely no agility, not even the smallest foundation things, the only "training" she does during this timeframe is shaping tricks. They walk, hike, treadmill, fit paws stuff to keep in shape, but no training. And they comeback very refreshed as a team. 

My break with Zoey this last year came at the same time and while it was partially forced due to an injury, it was also well timed because she was stressing big time in the ring and in turn so was I. We didn't do anything other than walking and playing and a little bit of trick shaping for 6 weeks. When we started back up I felt better and more clear headed and she clearly felt better. Unfortunately we had another forced injury break that we are coming off of, but she's coming back with more enthusiasm than before, so maybe it was a blessing in disguise? 

Sorry my post is kind of all over the place and probably doesn't flow well. Little things just kept popping up in my mind and it got a little unorganized lol


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## CptJack

Sorry, your last post was being posted as I did. 

My point was basically that sometimes stress 'builds up', so it's not an obvious response to one thing but burn out and the feedback loop and even the negative reaction to what is aversive to the individual dog can be cumulative, rather than something seen consistently and in the moment. 

Or, heck, maybe it's just spring and there are lot of animals out or there's a female in heat around or something.


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## elrohwen

Ok, going to try to address everything I thought of during kadylady's post! Yes, I do typically try to let him acclimate which helps, though different trainers seem to have different opinions on that. Like in agility, he couldn't run around and check things out because there were other dogs in the ring and it wasn't safe, so he had to stay with me no matter what and that was stressful for him. So we quit agility because it just wasn't working. A couple times I let him off leash at the new rally place and he ignored me for a couple minutes, but then he did come back and worked really well. The one issue I may have with the new trainer I'm working with is that he doesn't want me to let Watson self-reward with the environment, or use releasing him to sniff as a reward. I can see the argument that you want the dog focused on the rewards you have to offer, not focused on getting to reward in the environment, but the more I try to make Watson focus only on me the more he turns off. So that's something we'll discuss in our lesson this Sunday. I would really like to just let Watson off leash during the lesson and let him come back to me, and I told the trainer that's what worked in our outdoor agility area. The first couple days he just wanted to zoom around, because it was outside and it was exciting, but I just rewarded for engagement and then he was great and worked really really hard out there. That's just not a situation that 99% of classes and things have encouraged for some reason.

We do food play - lots of throwing food around, or having him catch it which is a favorite game. We use a lotus ball with food in it too.

As far as the break thing goes, we took a break starting last May for 6 months. For 3 of those months I didn't even live with him, so we did nothing. For the next 3 months I did almost nothing other than working on leash walking because that had gone downhill. We really didn't train anything. Then we signed up for the rally class and did that for maybe 3-4 months. The rally class was just go at your own pace stuff and as you can see in the video he really enjoyed it. That was some of the best work I've seen from him ever.

Then we came home two weeks ago and I wanted to work on the off leash stuff like you see in that video, but when we got to the lesson there was zero engagement so my entire goal for two weeks has been to play and get his enthusiasm up. So this is why it's hard to hear the suggestions of "just be more fun" or "play more during training" because I feel like that's all I'm doing! Haha. I've taken a huge step back in what I expect of him as far as rally/obedience type stuff (we're certainly not doing courses like we were in that video) and he still has days where he shuts off.

So really, haven't drilled anything or done anything he didn't really enjoy is almost a year (other than that class), and there was a significant break in there. So that's why I'm really not feeling like a break will help this time. Our sessions are just about fun and engagement, I'm not drilling things, I'm avoiding things he doesn't want to work on, but then to have him completely shut down some times is really frustrating. Like when we entered rally in March because he was so great in classes - he hadn't been to a dog show in a while and the environment was not typical for shows he's been to, but I was surprised that he was just completely unable/unwilling to do anything at all (he almost wouldn't take food). I really didn't expect that, and then a couple weeks later we go to this new trainer and I get the same response basically, and then I see the same thing at home and I'm just not sure what to do.

ETA: He's also always been a hooligan. haha. I've done pretty little to get obnoxious behaviors like jumping and biting under control at home or when we're working together, but I have worked to curb that stuff in public so he can go to stores or on vacation. Maybe he just assumes that a new training place with no other dogs, or a dog show, are places where he needs to just chill and behave, I don't know.


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## elrohwen

I video taped our session today! This is pretty typical I think. I kind of get nervous about the camera being on and kind of freeze up a bit so go easy. This shows his disengagement issue pretty well. He'll so something, take food, and then just stare out into the wind for a bit. I'm not sure how much I should expect of him .... Do I end it right there when he disengages? Do I do when I'm doing and kind of ignore him until he connects again? I think he got better towards the end which is also pretty typical, so maybe he needs that time to warm up? I don't know. But the whole thing felt pretty flat for him. I feel like I'm letting him disengage and reengage whenever he wants, letting him control the session, but I'm not sure what else to do. I'm afraid that putting him away, or tying him up to a tree or something will just be what he wants and he won't care. I guess when he disengages inside I just leave the training area with all my treats and that makes an impression, but I think that's because inside is boring and training is more fun that sitting around and doing nothing.


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## jade5280

*@elrohwen* To me it doesn't look like he's disengaging. It just looks like he's distracted by sights/smells, for a young intact male that's not very surprising (especially since it's windy in the video). He's still working with you. Does he do this inside? Ryker is very similar. He will just stare off once in a while when we're training. I think that's just something that you have to accept as his ingrained nature and work with or around it, but I don't think you can change it.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> I feel like I'm letting him disengage and reengage whenever he wants, letting him control the session, but I'm not sure what else to do.


IMO I think you should let him control the session. I'm not a training expert though so take that with a grain of salt. 

If I try to control training sessions with mine then I might as well not train at all because it's useless. They respond best and stay engaged when they're in control.


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## CptJack

I... don't think you can not let the dog decide if he's engaged or not? I mean, all the other stuff aside (and that training session looks like every training session I've ever had with Thud, honestly), you really... can't make a dog engage with you. All you can do is make it as appealing as you can, put him away when it's not for him and so be it. I don't think there's anything but making him as likely as you can that he will choose to do it that you CAN do. 

Also reading back through the agility thread, it seems like going flat, being distracted and disengaging happened this time last year, so it really MIGHT be a time of year, thing. Lots and lots of animals being lots and lots more active right now. Or it might not be, but there's certainly corrolation if not causation.


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## CptJack

I am hitting a roadblock with Kylie and teaching her to 'switch'. When I initially tried to teach her, I didn't quite understand what I was trying to do myself, and I'm sure I confused the daylights out of her. I understand it now, but I can't figure out how to make the criteria more clear for her. Guess I'm going to be doing lots of digging into youtube and blogs to see if I can figure something out. Right now, she seems to think it means 'turn 180 degrees and take the obstacle behind you' rather than a 90 degree lead change.


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## Kyllobernese

I am wondering if it is the time of year. Kris has been doing so well at Obedience. We have been doing run-throughs the last little while at Obedience. Three weeks ago, she would have passed her C.D. The last two Saturdays, she lags and won't pay attention. The weather has been a lot warmer so she has been spending more time outside racing around so don't know if that has something to do with it. Usually the other four people do their run-through first and as they are practicing for their Utility, it does take a little while.

While I am waiting, I do a little heeling but do spend a lot of time practicing her stays and wonder if she is just getting bored with it all. I have a practice match coming up next Sunday in a strange place so will see how that goes. I think Kris is like me and would really prefer to be doing Agility. I do run her over the equipment a couple of times while I am waiting but have always done that so it is not something new.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> IMO I think you should let him control the session. I'm not a training expert though so take that with a grain of salt.
> 
> If I try to control training sessions with mine then I might as well not train at all because it's useless. They responds best and stay engaged when they're in control.


We might be talking about controlling different things, but I disagree. I want to be able to ask him to train/play with him, and have him agree. Obviously some environments are going to be too stressful or too much for him at that time, but it doesn't mean we can't work up to that. And by letting him engage and reengage over and over as he chooses, then it's not up to me when we start and stop sessions, it's up to him. I would like to eventually be able to show up to a trial and say "ok! we're going to work together now!" and not have to cross my fingers and hope. Right now I don't know how to make that happen or how to work towards that exactly.



CptJack said:


> I... don't think you can not let the dog decide if he's engaged or not? I mean, all the other stuff aside (and that training session looks like every training session I've ever had with Thud, honestly), you really... can't make a dog engage with you. All you can do is make it as appealing as you can, put him away when it's not for him and so be it. I don't think there's anything but making him as likely as you can that he will choose to do it that you CAN do.
> 
> Also reading back through the agility thread, it seems like going flat, being distracted and disengaging happened this time last year, so it really MIGHT be a time of year, thing. Lots and lots of animals being lots and lots more active right now. Or it might not be, but there's certainly corrolation if not causation.


Not saying that I want or can force him to be engaged. I'm saying that by continuing to train and reinforce what he's giving me when he's only working at 30%, I'm never going to get better engagement than that in that environment. I just don't know exactly what to do or how to handle it when he does stop paying attention. But if I just stand around and let him work with me and not work with me on his own time, and cross my fingers that today will be the day that he works, then I don't think that's improving our communication or bond or team work. There has to be a better way than what I'm doing.

You do have a point about the time of year. I think it was this time of year two years ago that he completely stopped doing nosework in class, but would still work at home. Could be spring fever all over again.


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## elrohwen

Kyllobernese said:


> I am wondering if it is the time of year. Kris has been doing so well at Obedience. We have been doing run-throughs the last little while at Obedience. Three weeks ago, she would have passed her C.D. The last two Saturdays, she lags and won't pay attention. The weather has been a lot warmer so she has been spending more time outside racing around so don't know if that has something to do with it. Usually the other four people do their run-through first and as they are practicing for their Utility, it does take a little while.
> 
> While I am waiting, I do a little heeling but do spend a lot of time practicing her stays and wonder if she is just getting bored with it all. I have a practice match coming up next Sunday in a strange place so will see how that goes. I think Kris is like me and would really prefer to be doing Agility. I do run her over the equipment a couple of times while I am waiting but have always done that so it is not something new.


Maybe it is just the time of year! Something similar has happened before. In agility I thought it was stress because of the teeter. In nosework I had no idea what his problem was (but thought it might be time of year). This is the third year in a row that our training has gone way downhill in spring, so maybe that is the answer and I'm just over thinking things.


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## Laurelin

Ok finally ogt around to watching both videos! Busy weekend!

I find all my dogs get more ho hum in the spring. I'm not sure why... I've always attributed it to the sharp change in weather temps and maybe even allergens? I'm not sure. Hank is definitely harder to engage right now than he has been. I find all my dogs have struggled most with the first few weeks of change from cold to warmer even moreso than the HOT days.

To me he looks distracted versus stressed but it's hard to tell. Imo it's more of a lack of drive issue than anything. Not saying he's not drivey but saying he's not got enough drive for what you have (the toys and treats). So building the drive for that would go a long long ways. I know you've done a lot in the past but I have to brush up on this a lot. 

My thoughts (take with a grain of salt please!)

Most the times he checks out is between behaviors it seemed like to me. In agility we work a lot on 'transport' behaviors. Which to say is maintaining engagement between reps. A lot of the principal behind this is just you have your 'down' area- crate, then you are either out working a transport or working an agility sequence. If the dog is out of the crate, it is being engaged in SOME way. There is no chance to get distracted. If you need a break or need to take your eyes off the dog then the dog is put back up in the crate. I find it helps a LOT with the check in and check out behavior. Hank is more apt to check out in less formal situations and longer duration sessions. I was watching our video from yesterday and around the 7 minute mark is where he checked out. Just being aware of the limitations is helpful. I was shocked going back and watching because at the time it felt like we had barely started and he checked out but really 7 minutes is a long time to ask him to be focused! If there's a way to institute time down and then time working I would do that. I use a crate in my garage. At the park I tie him up but it's still not as good as the crate imo. And sometimes I have to force myself to take a break because I'm still raring to go but it's a lot more work for the dog. I usually play on my phone or watch the video I took of our training for 5-10 minutes.

For transports I often use a food lure or toy lure. Food lure mostly at first to just not give him the option of checking out. I do get sloppy of course at times but I find if I really focus on the transport their motivation goes up.

For me it was kind of confusing between behaviors if you were asking anything of him so I think that could be why he was starting to check out. 'Ok I did the behavior, got rewarded, it's over now.'

There were also a couple points where I felt like your delivery of the reward was slow and allowed him to check out a bit. Or that he just needed a higher rate of reward. There was one point (and I would have to go back and look later to pinpoint it) where he was distracted and he came back very enthusiastically. You praised him but you didn't give him a reward until he did the behavior correctly. You waited a good while for the correct behavior. while I get you want to reward the behavior, I would have also rewarded the moment he checked back in and wanted to work with more than just praise.

Do you ever do any speed type games? One of my favorites is to have the dog sit or down and then immediately release to a tug or treat. You will ask for sit, then release and run away. dog catches up to you and you reward. Rinse, repeat.

Another good one I have heard called 'cookie in the corner'. You will throw a low value treat on the ground (into the corner) and then run away from the treat. The dog is allowed to go get the treat but then should sprint back to you where you reward with something higher value (better cookie or toy/play). 

Do you ever do restrained recalls? I find that helps a lot with toy drive. It is best to have a helper physically restrain the dog while you tease a bit with the toys. Then you take off sprinting and the dog catches you and gets a treat.

Another thing we do is hide and seek though you need a place your dog can be off leash.

I try to do more of that kind of stuff versus 'training'. 

another thought: clickers help sometimes with my dogs if they're ho hum. It'll clear up the confusion and also they just seem to work harder when the clicker is out. I don't know if you were using a clicker with the feet on the target thing or not but I might pull it out for something like that.

I thought the end of the second video was much better than the beginning because of YOUR behavior. You seemed much more up and happy yourself. I'd like to see you let loose a bit more. Be wild and fun. Run away from him and play. With Hank if I am running the tug away from him, he's much more likely to engage and want the toy. A lot of dogs just won't grab a toy if it is put in front of them.


----------



## Laurelin

Also: Do you do circle work? I think that's an agility thing but it helps a lot with distracted dogs. Basically work them staying engaged on both hands in small or larger circles and at varying speeds. Can use a toy or food.

All the stuff I talked about up there is stuff we do in distractions class and recall class. I will try to think of some more of the games we do. We do a lot of games- at least half of our training really. If things go ho hum for a while I put the training away and just pull out the games for a while.

Idk, he seems like a typical young boy dog and he may need things to just overall be more exciting and lively.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin, the drive building stuff is exactly what the trainer we are working with is focusing on, so he agrees with you. Part of that is using all meals for training, so that food becomes higher value even in situations where he is distracted or a little stressed. And I do work on toy drive but it's pretty blah anywhere outside the house. He's never been a high toy drive dog.

Yes, I was definitely looser later on and I think that happens a lot. It takes me a bit to warm up too, and especially in front of a camera or when people are watching me I kind of freeze. I guess I can't blame him for warming up over time since it takes me a bit to warm up too. Part of it is that when he's really blah I don't want to be all in his face and shut him down, so I'm trying to find the balance and it takes me a bit. I definitely need to to work more on getting him up and excited when I want it. In group classes he's always up and excited because there are other dogs, so I never learned to build that as much on my own. And obviously being that excited because of other dogs isn't what I wanted anyway. So I tried to calm him down to the point where he could work with me and focus, and I think I got pretty good at that, but if he starts out calm I'm completely at a loss for how to get him excited. 

We do play games where I throw the food and he has to get back to me quick. We play hide and seek but that's tough to do outside since he can't be off leash and I can't get that far away from him, but we do it. We used to do restrained recalls but haven't in a long time. I do want to go back to working on driving to a toy or food target since I don't think we've worked on that since quitting agility. 

What do you mean by circle work? I haven't heard of that but maybe I know it by a different name.

One thing I've realized is that I hate training with a leash. I get it all wrapped up in myself and him and it makes me much more awkward. That's probably a reason why we do better inside just because he's off leash and I can do whatever I want. Need to yell at my husband to set up the outdoor training area where he can be off leash.

Today he did much better in our private lesson. He is stressed about entering the building because they clean the day before and it smells like a vet's office - the only other building he's slunk into like that was a doggy daycare/training place that smelled the same. But he got better when we were in the training area and I actually got some excitement out of him. I think he's still so unsure of this place, and I realized that the only two private lessons he's had both ended badly - one with the corrections lady, that really wasn't that harsh but he's soft. The other because the trainer brought in her dog as a distraction and Watson realized he was intact and flipped out, even though the other dog was chill. I think he's just not sure what private lessons are about and what he's supposed to be doing, but he's figuring it out. God, he shuts down so much when he's confused. I always thought he was a dog who stressed up instead of down, but if he was he's not any more. 

But yeah, we got some good stuff. And we worked on retrieves since I suck at training that, and Watson got excited to see the dumbbell and clicker because that's a game he understands. The clicker definitely helps him focus.


----------



## elrohwen

There is one thing from our lesson today that is bothering me, probably way more than it should. But this guy thinks that I trained Watson as a pet, probably with some corrections and generally supressing his drive and telling him what not to do all the time, so that he would be a good pet. Basically he thinks I've done everything wrong for having a dog who can do sports, and only done pet dog training (and he thinks Watson is a really nice pet). But that is totally not true and it makes me sad that after all of my work that's what a professional trainer sees in us as a team. He also knows Watson is super focused on the environment, and thinks that is because I've let him visit dogs and do whatever he wants. I've spent every single obedience class getting him to focus on me, do tricks, do anything involving me and not the other dogs and not the environment. I have done so much work on trying to build his toy drive, and build his desire to train and play with me. He's always been a total hooligan and every other trainer thought I wasn't strict enough with him, and I let him get away with crap because I wanted him to have fun with me. And look where we are? Just feeling pretty down that after 2 years of trying to do all of these things that he's telling me, it doesn't look like I've done any of them. Obviously I haven't been doing things exactly right, and I haven't had trainers in person who could help me with these things, but I have been doing them to the best of my abilities and I know all of the things he's telling me.

I think it hurts my feelings that he thinks these things because if I tried so hard to do everything correctly to have a sport dog and still ended up with blah, what makes me think I will do better with the new dog? And I don't think it's Watson's fault either. He's not easy, but he has some drive, he has some energy, he's not super spooky, he has a stable temperament - he has a lot to work with. 

Sorry for the rambling, just had to share that. It's not like this trainer is being mean or anything, he's actually by far the best trainer we've worked with. I'm just overly sensitive and probably freaking out about getting a new puppy. But this thread is the training support group so I can be angsty if I want. Haha


----------



## CrimsonAccent

I totally get that. I would have the same reaction in that sort of situation. That's actually happened to me in a college class before (you want to be a journalist/writer? Guess what, you suck. Lol)

And it may be that this guy just has high standards and sees that you and Watson have a lot of (still) unrealized potential. So it could be seen as a compliment


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## elrohwen

CrimsonAccent said:


> I totally get that. I would have the same reaction in that sort of situation. That's actually happened to me in a college class before (you want to be a journalist/writer? Guess what, you suck. Lol)
> 
> And it may be that this guy just has high standards and sees that you and Watson have a lot of (still) unrealized potential. So it could be seen as a compliment


Yeah, I know he's trying to be helpful, and he's saying it in a nice way. I'm trying to take the advice without saying every time "But I did do that!" Haha. 

And he's an IPO guy, so he does have high standards. He puts a ton of work into his dogs, way more than I do.


----------



## Remaru

Training a new puppy. I have to keep reminding myself that I am training a new puppy and he doesn't know everything yet and he shouldn't know everything yet. Lad is really smart and easy. He has been a very easy puppy so far. He didn't need house broken, crate training was so simple (we did a few crate games and commands to make it easier for both of us). "Settle" he taught himself and comes and flops next to me waiting patiently. His default is just to be good. I have to remind myself that I don't actually want a dog who just lays next to me or on top of me all of the time, that isn't what we are working towards but he is just so good at it. I have been pretty sick since I brought him home, a trip to the hospital, recovery time, a respiratory infection. He doesn't mind, just lays on the couch with me when I can't get up, plays with his toys on the floor and wrestles with Freyja. 

We have managed to complete Level 1 of Sue Ailsby Training Levels. I decided I would try to be more organized this time and start with a plan. We are just starting on Level 2. We have also worked on paw targeting, puppy in a box, backing up, focus, LLW and default settle (he is a master of settling even in public places). Right now the goal is to be ready for CGC by 1year. I know we could probably be ready before but he is a large breed puppy and if he took it before I just don't think it would mean as much. He will be doing CGCA as well and perhaps the new Urban CGC. We may look into a Puppy Star program before that. Weighing my options on puppy classes as I really don't enjoy them and we are doing a lot of socializing.


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## dagwall

I saw something mentioned on facebook earlier today about the Urban CGC and didn't have time to read about it, just went and looked now that you reminded me. Yeah... Jubel passed his CGC but would not pass the Urban CGC. Ignoring food on the sidewalks will never been something he can do. I can tighten his leash and tell him "leave it" without him loosing his mind trying to go get the item but if he sees it he's going to think about it. If we just walked right by he's going to grab it. So yeah... that's not happening.

Though reading further we probably wouldn't even bother with it if we could easily pass it because it requires ACK/PAL registration just to take the test, plus record of passing the CGC already. I got lazy and forgot to mail in our paperwork for the CGC so "officially" he doesn't have his CGC, but we did take and pass the test haha.


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## Kyllobernese

I was surprised when Kris passed her CGN last year (not surprised at her passing) I got the certificate from the CKC even though she is not registered and does not have a number with them.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I saw something mentioned on facebook earlier today about the Urban CGC and didn't have time to read about it, just went and looked now that you reminded me. Yeah... Jubel passed his CGC but would not pass the Urban CGC. Ignoring food on the sidewalks will never been something he can do. I can tighten his leash and tell him "leave it" without him loosing his mind trying to go get the item but if he sees it he's going to think about it. If we just walked right by he's going to grab it. So yeah... that's not happening.
> 
> Though reading further we probably wouldn't even bother with it if we could easily pass it because it requires ACK/PAL registration just to take the test, plus record of passing the CGC already. I got lazy and forgot to mail in our paperwork for the CGC so "officially" he doesn't have his CGC, but we did take and pass the test haha.


I just saw a blog post on that - neat idea!


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## Remaru

Lad needs to be able to pass all of them if he is going to be my service dog. If we actually do all of them or not and when, I don't know. I think he has to be neutered for the PAL registration (since he isn't an AKC registered pure bred dog) and I don't want him neutered until he is at least 2 so that will hold up some things.


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## kadylady

Elrohwen: Sorry for the delayed response, I watched your video this weekend but was so busy that I didn't have time to sit down and write a decent response. Just watched again and read through the rest of the comments. 

I agree with most of what Laurelin posted. I also don't think that there are any major issues going on and that it probably feels a lot worse than it actually is (which is usually the case). The thought that keeps coming back to me is that he mirrors your engagement/excitement/enthusiasm. When you are up, he comes up. When you go flat, he goes flat. Which is pretty typical I think. I know that both Luke and Zoey mirror me in the exact same way and it's something I have to be super conscious of when training. My trainer was all over me this weekend about it. We did a seminar and it was such a long day and by the end of the day Zoey was exhausted and I was exhausted but my trainer would not let me fizz out on Zoey and when I got back into it, she got back into it. 

I also wonder if the transition from toy to food is contributing at all to bringing him down? If you watch a point where he's engaged with the toy, he's more up, then you out him and give him food, and he's back down. 2:30 for example, he's into the toy, tug tug tug, then you out him and food reward and ask him to play again and he's like meh to the toy... What would happen if you tug tug tug, out the toy, then immediately ask him to reengage the toy by running away with it? Do that another time or two, then out the toy, ask for a behavior, then the second he gets the behavior immediately toy reward? I know my dogs all have some degree of difficulty switching back and forth from food to toy. It very much creates an upper/downer situation.

If I could give a couple play suggestions to maybe test out if you want??? 1) more movement, both you and the toy. Zoey has the least amount of toy drive of my 3. If I present a still toy she's not going to be interested in it. But if I swing it around, hide it behind my back and let it "peek a boo" in and out of the picture and run away with it, she's WANTS that toy!! Think rabbit or squirrel behavior. My trainer says "no suicidal rabbits!" which means the rabbit is not going to just lay there and present itself to the dog, the reason dogs go crazy for rabbits/squirrels is the chase, so the more you mimic those behaviors, the more engagement you should expect. That alone really helped Zoey's toy drive. If the toy gets away from him, don't give it right back, make him work to get it back! 2) Less pressure. Facing him, moving towards him, eye contact are all things that increase pressure. Facing away from him (sideways or even tugging with him behind you), moving away from him (backing away or dragging him on a toy behind you, or running away) and not looking directly at him are all things that decrease pressure. Zoey likes when I run away with a toy or drag her along behind me. If I'm feeling like I'm about to lose her off the toy, I will turn away or back away, something that decreases the pressure and it usually helps reengage her.

I also like Laurelin's suggestion of speed games. The quicker pace you keep, the more apt he should be to attempt to keep up. When I first got Skye and was nurturing her toy drive I instilled a "ready" cue which means...get ready but don't go yet... So I say "ready......!!!!" then "git it!" (which is a release to get the toy) we tug tug tug, then "out" then immediately "yes git it" repeat a couple times with her immediately getting the toy from an out, then start over with asking for a sit or and down and "ready.....!!!!!" It helps make the outing of the toy not such a downer because she associates it more as a quick break versus being all done. When we are all done with a toy, I say "all done".

Again, sorry for the rambly, unorganized thoughts. All in all I think you've got a lot of great things going for you and again, the video didn't look that bad. It looked like him being a distracted young boy and you just a little unsure of how to address it, which led him to look unsure of what you want. Which we've all been there. And I agree, this time of year is tough, all the smells and the noises and the animals that have been gone for months are back and that's so exciting!

I can try and get a video this week of some of this play stuff and maybe it will make more sense than my attempt at explaining? lol I'm sure I said it before, but the play class really helped me with my dogs and helped me realize how boring *I* was during training and it's making a big difference in our training. It used to be impossible for me to get Zoey "up" at our agility training building, and now she's barking at me because she's so excited.


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## elrohwen

Toy play has been an issue for us. He really enjoyed play and retrieving until I start asking for outs, and then he became possessive of really good toys and wouldn't bring them back, because he thought I would take them. I did all of the right things, letting him get it back immediately, etc, but he just found it very unpleasant to have to give the toy up. So here I was working on letting him have the toy, then using the leash to encourage him to bring it back and trading a treat for the toy. Inside he's actually pretty good about switching between food and toys. I usually will ask him to out and then begin play again but I just wasn't doing that when I filmed. I'm not sure if he would've taken it back anyway - he was just weird about the toy and playing with toys outside in general is hard for him unless it's on a flirt pole. Right now, the goal for toys is just to play with them outside in general. The lotus ball works better as a reward because he's not possessive of it, but it doesn't have the tugging aspect.

I wish I took the play class last term instead of the terrible prey drive class. I did take Shade's toy play class though, but we didn't really get anything out of it. I feel like I'm doing the right things when I ask for the out, give it back, etc but I don't seem to get anywhere which is why I've gone to using the leash to get him to bring it back. I should go back and re-read the notes from the class because there are probably some things that can help outside. 

I know I have a hard time getting super energetic. In training classes he is so high that it works well for me to be more low key, but then I don't think I've worked hard enough at being exciting. As you can see in the rally video he's quit excited about working even though I'm not being particularly exciting - that's because there are other dogs there and he's already pretty up.

I think we're starting to get it a bit - we went out yesterday and he was much more excited. We're doing a lot of just following and chasing me as I run away and really rewarding him for moving quickly and not letting me get away from him.


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## taquitos

Apparently backing up for Meeko = sit down, and then scootch backwards with your butt popping up and down off the floor... It's going to take a while to teach him this I guess lol!!


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## ireth0

taquitos said:


> Apparently backing up for Meeko = sit down, and then scootch backwards with your butt popping up and down off the floor... It's going to take a while to teach him this I guess lol!!


I was having similar issues with Luna where she would back into a sit. 

I found luring her at the chest worked better for us than the 'walk into her and she will back up' method.


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## CptJack

I had the most luck with standing over the dog and luring at their chest so they backed up INTO me, but I was deliberately teaching the dog to back up between my legs. That would also be a really hard method with a small dog.


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## elrohwen

Ok, I have a new video for everyone! I think things are going much better. At the suggestion of our trainer I'm working on a "ready?!" cue from the down. Right now I'm just doing "ready", having him wait and watching to see that he's excited, and then running off and having him run after me. He really enjoys that now that's he's figured out what the heck we're doing. The goal is for this to be the cue that we're going to do some thing fun and go straight from the down into heeling or whatever exercise. 

I don't know that using his meals and training 3 times a day is making him more food motivated, but I think it's making me figure out a way to communicate what I want. Once he understands what we're doing his engagement and energy levels start to go way up. If he's completely confused, a steak wouldn't make him show energy.


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## CptJack

We. Did. Parallel walking on leash, and _off leash_ recalling while another dog was running. Also off leash recalling past food.
You guys, that is SO HUGE. 

Also, she was kind of ALL OVER the people in the class tonight for some reason. Just all loose and wiggly and happy and soliciting attention, AND worked for tug - both of which are huge indicators that her stress levels are dropping inside the class. 

Couple of fits when she and the really reactive ACD both got going but she was able to hold her head together and do what she needed to do. I am over the MOON.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> We. Did. Parallel walking on leash, and _off leash_ recalling while another dog was running. Also off leash recalling past food.
> You guys, that is SO HUGE.
> 
> Also, she was kind of ALL OVER the people in the class tonight for some reason. Just all loose and wiggly and happy and soliciting attention, AND worked for tug - both of which are huge indicators that her stress levels are dropping inside the class.
> 
> Couple of fits when she and the really reactive ACD both got going but she was able to hold her head together and do what she needed to do. I am over the MOON.


That is awesome! Go Molly!


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> That is awesome! Go Molly!


We're going to be able to do this. We really, really are going to be able to do this. I think I might cry. At the very least, the criteria for me moving onto the next set of classes has been met. Well, my critera 

Thanks. I'm just... all a flail.


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## CptJack

I finally watched the video. Watson really does look so much happier - and so do you, actually.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> elrohwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is awesome! Go Molly!
> 
> 
> 
> We're going to be able to do this. We really, really are going to be able to do this. I think I might cry. At the very least, the criteria for me moving onto the next set of classes has been met. Well, my critera
> 
> Thanks. I'm just... all a flail.
Click to expand...

She's so young and you have so much time to work on this stuff. Whether you two compete or not I know you'll be successful. She's a really cool dog and she can do it, even if she needs extra management or work (and so many dogs do!)


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> She's so young and you have so much time to work on this stuff. Whether you two compete or not I know you'll be successful. She's a really cool dog and she can do it, even if she needs extra management or work (and so many dogs do!)


Yeah. I mean it'll be NICE if I can manage agility with her, but mostly I'm just so, so glad to see her HAPPIER. Seeing her looking for attention from people, being willing to play and have a good time without stressing the heck out is just. The most awesome thing in the world.

If it never generalizes and we avoid dogs everywhere else - if it NEVER gets better than it is now - I will be okay. 

And yeah, she is young. Younger than I sometimes remember, really.


----------



## Laurelin

First: Elrohwen, I AM going to watch your video and reply separately.

Second: Yay Molly! That is HUGE

Third: Hank training

Hank did his first vehicle search today! It was up on the side of my car and he got it after just a couple minutes despite never seeing a hide on a car before.

I also had him search my entire yard a few times and had one hide that was about 3' off the ground in the crook of a tree. He got it! No problems at all!

He really seems to like nosework a lot. I know rat terriers are used for trailing often (illegal here which sucks) so it makes me wonder. He is very methodical. Does a lot more nose to the ground and perimeter work than the paps. He doesn't air scent as much though. 

He has only done nosework 3 times and is already picking up hides that are off the ground quite a ways and none of this is paired with food! 

If only we could figure out how to teach him the teeter. He learns everything else very easily.


----------



## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Ok, I have a new video for everyone! I think things are going much better. At the suggestion of our trainer I'm working on a "ready?!" cue from the down. Right now I'm just doing "ready", having him wait and watching to see that he's excited, and then running off and having him run after me. He really enjoys that now that's he's figured out what the heck we're doing. The goal is for this to be the cue that we're going to do some thing fun and go straight from the down into heeling or whatever exercise.
> 
> I don't know that using his meals and training 3 times a day is making him more food motivated, but I think it's making me figure out a way to communicate what I want. Once he understands what we're doing his engagement and energy levels start to go way up. If he's completely confused, a steak wouldn't make him show energy.


This already looks so much better! You are definitely more up and that is helping a LOT.

I still think you are allowing too much down time between reps. That's where the sniffing starts. Instead of feed the treat and then walk away, make him run for it then IMMEDIATELY ask for another sit. Then release then run. 

Example would be at around :55-1:00. You get a good release to you and he's very up but then you turn your back to him and walk away and he comes down and starts sniffing.

Does he ramp up if you kind of shove him a bit? I do that with Hank if he's tuning out but it wouldn't work with Summer or Mia because they're softer and not into the rough play.

I also like the first rep at :55 where you run backwards away from him the best. You get a lot more energy from him that time. You do pick it back up later on (around 2ish minutes but the couple reps where you didn't run were the ones where he was less enthused.

I use a ready as well. Before we do any exercises I ask Hank if he wants to 'go play'. I think it does help dogs to realize working time vs not working time. He gets excited if I ask him if he wants to play.

I also liked the tricks around 2:40. That seemed to really help him out a lot too. I use a spin with Summer, rebound with Hank the same way to focus them.

Overall a LOT better I think, though!


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> First: Elrohwen, I AM going to watch your video and reply separately.
> 
> Second: Yay Molly! That is HUGE
> 
> Third: Hank training
> 
> Hank did his first vehicle search today! It was up on the side of my car and he got it after just a couple minutes despite never seeing a hide on a car before.
> 
> I also had him search my entire yard a few times and had one hide that was about 3' off the ground in the crook of a tree. He got it! No problems at all!
> 
> He really seems to like nosework a lot. I know rat terriers are used for trailing often (illegal here which sucks) so it makes me wonder. He is very methodical. Does a lot more nose to the ground and perimeter work than the paps. He doesn't air scent as much though.
> 
> He has only done nosework 3 times and is already picking up hides that are off the ground quite a ways and none of this is paired with food!
> 
> If only we could figure out how to teach him the teeter. He learns everything else very easily.


Go Hank!

Did you start him on just odor? How did you do it? I will probably start my new puppy myself instead of going through 12 weeks of classes to get her on odor, but I'm not sure the best way to start other than just the standard pairing method with removing the food quickly.


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## taquitos

ireth0 said:


> I was having similar issues with Luna where she would back into a sit.
> 
> I found luring her at the chest worked better for us than the 'walk into her and she will back up' method.


Yeah that was the first thing I tried but he just circles around my hand if that makes sense lol!



CptJack said:


> I had the most luck with standing over the dog and luring at their chest so they backed up INTO me, but I was deliberately teaching the dog to back up between my legs. That would also be a really hard method with a small dog.


Yeah I could try that but the lure to the chest just sends him into pom pom circling fits lol!

We'll get it eventually... for now I guess I'll just have to ask for one or two steps only lol.


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## elrohwen

I mostly taught the backup without luring, using "leave it"/it's yer choice. If I hold out a treat and don't let Watson have it, he will usually back up. He also backs up if I hold out a toy like I'm going to throw it. So I just added the back up cue when I knew he was about to do it on his own and it's worked pretty well. I have lured it a bit and that helped generalize, but I wasn't getting very far trying to lure it from scratch.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> This already looks so much better! You are definitely more up and that is helping a LOT.
> 
> I still think you are allowing too much down time between reps. That's where the sniffing starts. Instead of feed the treat and then walk away, make him run for it then IMMEDIATELY ask for another sit. Then release then run.
> 
> Example would be at around :55-1:00. You get a good release to you and he's very up but then you turn your back to him and walk away and he comes down and starts sniffing.
> 
> Does he ramp up if you kind of shove him a bit? I do that with Hank if he's tuning out but it wouldn't work with Summer or Mia because they're softer and not into the rough play.
> 
> I also like the first rep at :55 where you run backwards away from him the best. You get a lot more energy from him that time. You do pick it back up later on (around 2ish minutes but the couple reps where you didn't run were the ones where he was less enthused.
> 
> I use a ready as well. Before we do any exercises I ask Hank if he wants to 'go play'. I think it does help dogs to realize working time vs not working time. He gets excited if I ask him if he wants to play.
> 
> I also liked the tricks around 2:40. That seemed to really help him out a lot too. I use a spin with Summer, rebound with Hank the same way to focus them.
> 
> Overall a LOT better I think, though!


Thank you for the comments! Yes, I think this was much better. More than anything, I think he's figuring out what I want and what we're doing out there. He has a hard time switching from casual hanging out to work mode, which is I think one of the foundation things I'm trying to fix. Now that he has a better understanding he's been much less distracted and there's much less staring into space out of stress/confusion.


----------



## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Go Hank!
> 
> Did you start him on just odor? How did you do it? I will probably start my new puppy myself instead of going through 12 weeks of classes to get her on odor, but I'm not sure the best way to start other than just the standard pairing method with removing the food quickly.


I just started him with boxes. Put the odor in a box and when he went to that box I rewarded him. He figured it out very very fast that odor = reward. The first few times he wanted to jump over boxes but within 15 minutes he got it. Put it to a cue and then did some easy in the grass hides. 3rd session is the first I've tried any off the ground hides.

Actually he's pretty much as efficient as the papillons now and I feel confident that any hides they can do, he can do as well. I am not sure if part is breed or what but I wonder why they always start on food after training Hank without. It really hasn't made a difference at all. It just seems like an unnecessary step to have to switch.

That said, we are joining a class for nosework in 2 weeks. I just want to get more practice and get more experience with more hides. They move the class around and do a lot of interesting hides + distractions.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I just started him with boxes. Put the odor in a box and when he went to that box I rewarded him. He figured it out very very fast that odor = reward. The first few times he wanted to jump over boxes but within 15 minutes he got it. Put it to a cue and then did some easy in the grass hides. 3rd session is the first I've tried any off the ground hides.
> 
> Actually he's pretty much as efficient as the papillons now and I feel confident that any hides they can do, he can do as well. I am not sure if part is breed or what but I wonder why they always start on food after training Hank without. It really hasn't made a difference at all. It just seems like an unnecessary step to have to switch.
> 
> That said, we are joining a class for nosework in 2 weeks. I just want to get more practice and get more experience with more hides. They move the class around and do a lot of interesting hides + distractions.


I always got the impression that they started with food because some dogs might be low drive, not proficient at training/shaping yet, or nervous about the boxes. Starting with food is motivational and pretty idiot proof to train for someone who hasn't done a lot of training.

If the new pup is anything like Watson, motivation and drive to sniff will not be an issue. lol If we join a class, I plan to start her at intermediate where dogs are already on odor only and skip all of the food stuff. Personally, I thought that using food for so long before switching to odor would cause even more confusion for dogs who got to the level where food distractions are allowed. And it was boring and not needed for Watson.


----------



## Laurelin

I should add that I did not pair any hides either. I just made sure to reward really really quickly when he got to the odor.

I think you're right that it's a drive thing generally. I guess. The more I think about it the less sense it makes for me to use food. Especially because you want the dog to ignore food later on... I also know a lot of trainers pair for a long long time.

I think you won't have a problem at all. Day 1 Hank was doing boxes and small exterior searches. I'll have to try to video him to show you but I think he's working very well. I did get some video of his first day but haven't really looked at it.


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## elrohwen

I guess another reason to pair is that it makes the dog get right down at the source, instead of generally alerting to the area that the odor is in. You can train that yourself, but again it's pretty idiot proof if the dog is basically forced to get to source to get his reward every single time. I still don't think it's a good enough reason to pair food and odor for so long, but I can imagine that's one of the arguments.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Ok, I have a new video for everyone! I think things are going much better. At the suggestion of our trainer I'm working on a "ready?!" cue from the down. Right now I'm just doing "ready", having him wait and watching to see that he's excited, and then running off and having him run after me. He really enjoys that now that's he's figured out what the heck we're doing. The goal is for this to be the cue that we're going to do some thing fun and go straight from the down into heeling or whatever exercise.
> 
> I don't know that using his meals and training 3 times a day is making him more food motivated, but I think it's making me figure out a way to communicate what I want. Once he understands what we're doing his engagement and energy levels start to go way up. If he's completely confused, a steak wouldn't make him show energy.


I agree, much better!! I really like the ready cue. I started it with Skye at the suggestion of my trainer and then started it with Luke and Zoey too. More recently for Zoey I've been pairing it with a high hand touch to try and get her a little more revved up and it seems to be helping. Skye quivers with excitement when I give the ready cue! 

Really nice!


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## elrohwen

Yeah, I like the ready cue. I rely too much on location to tell him when we're working (basement = working, certain training places = working) instead of having a cue that means we're working anywhere.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> the level where food distractions are allowed.


Lol food distractions. Luna's 'leave it' isn't strong enough for them yet so I always have to physically pull her away if she tries to go for them. Because she will not stop going for them until she gets them, even if that means breaking the container. And I am MORE than confident she WOULD break the container if given the opportunity. (her catchphrase isn't "LUNA SMASH." for nothing)

I pull her away, I kick away the distraction, whatever it takes to get some distance. I know I wouldn't be allowed to do that in a trial but at this point I just don't want her to self reward, ever.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Lol food distractions. Luna's 'leave it' isn't strong enough for them yet so I always have to physically pull her away if she tries to go for them. Because she will not stop going for them until she gets them, even if that means breaking the container. And I am MORE than confident she WOULD break the container if given the opportunity. (her catchphrase isn't "LUNA SMASH." for nothing)
> 
> I pull her away, I kick away the distraction, whatever it takes to get some distance. I know I wouldn't be allowed to do that in a trial but at this point I just don't want her to self reward, ever.


Personally, I wouldn't be using food distractions in nosework with a dog who I didn't think could ignore them (without a leave it). Odor obedience should be stronger than wanting to go for food, which is why I think it makes more sense to start without food. We took nosework classes for over a year and our instructor never introduced food distractions, except for the one time that there were dog treats in a plastic bag and we didn't realize they were there until halfway through the class. 

I would question why your trainer is putting out food distractions for dogs who aren't ready to ignore them yet and focus only on odor. Just seems counter productive to me.


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## Laurelin

Hank is going to be joining an intro to odor class. Essentially skipping the first twelve weeks of nosework and joining dogs who are in the process of going from food to odor. It should be interesting to see how that goes and how his drive for the game compares in a class versus at home. I'm glad my trainer/friend was cool with is starting on our own. I think classes help for sure if only to motivate me to practice. But it's just so easy to train yourself.


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## CptJack

Holy. Crap. Maybe Molly *is* generalizing. She just successfully listened to a 'leave it' and did not lose her crap while Kylie and I were (loudly and somewhat violently) playing. That's new.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Hank is going to be joining an intro to odor class. Essentially skipping the first twelve weeks of nosework and joining dogs who are in the process of going from food to odor. It should be interesting to see how that goes and how his drive for the game compares in a class versus at home. I'm glad my trainer/friend was cool with is starting on our own. I think classes help for sure if only to motivate me to practice. But it's just so easy to train yourself.


You are my guinea pig for starting odor on your own, so let me know how it goes!


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> You are my guinea pig for starting odor on your own, so let me know how it goes!


Right now I'm like 'omg. MUST PRACTICE DAILY' Haha I just don't want to be super behind everyone else.


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## dagwall

While I'm super happy going straight to odor is working for Hank I think that would only work for certain dogs who are already drivey and really into training. I totally agree about being on food for way too long in my foundation classes as well as odor/food pairing but I don't think most dogs would do great going straight to odor. Hank is just a rockstar. I'm sure other dogs can and DO do it but it takes the right kinda of dog plus an experienced trainer. 

I think Jubel would have struggled a lot if we had tried starting on straight odor, but we could have easily moved from food, to odor/food, to straight odor much faster than we did.


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## elrohwen

Yeah, I don't know if it would work for every dog, or if it would work as fast with every dog. I can think of a husky in our class who took a really long time to figure out what the heck the point of it was, and he's still not a high drive searching dog. He just does it because he loves his mom and doing stuff with her. Sniffing for stuff is just not really in his nature and it's clearly a taught skill. 

Watson and the cocker spaniel knew exactly what the point was the second it was introduced to them. So I think anybody with a hunty type dog would have a pretty easy time starting right on odor. The only thing Watson had to learn was what we were searching for, not how to search.

I do know that Margaret Simek (formerly of FDSA) teaches online nosework classes going straight to odor for every dog. I'm not exactly sure of her system (might be exactly what Laurelin is doing) but she has used it on many pet dogs in real life classes. I think it just requires a better trainer and sense of timing than a straight beginner might have, but most people who have trained a sport should be able to do it.


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## dagwall

I know the lead trainer for my travel classes (he trained my foundations trainer) is strongly in favor of starting on food. He is ex-military and trained detection dogs. I think he is so strongly in favor of starting on food and staying on food for so long mostly due to the attraction of reactive and shy dogs to the sport of nosework. With the large number of dogs who need this to be an entirely positive experience it allows for handler error or just environmentally sensitive dogs to build a strong foundation is purely positive form. If anything the dogs view as negative happens somehow he doesn't want them to associate that with odor. Food is a ubiquitous positive already so even if something negative does happen the dog isn't going to blame the food, if odor is new it might be linked to the negative thing. 

So it's not so much that he thinks the long foundation is needed for most dogs but doesn't want any dog to make a bad association with odor. By teaching them their foundations on food before adding odor it greatly reduces the risk of "poisoning" odor to the more sensitive dogs. So for the benefit of the mass appeal of nosework everyone is slowed down.


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## Laurelin

I am in FDSA intro to nosework class right now. They shape and back chain the find at the odor/alert and start straight on odor. It's interesting but different (more thoughtful) than what Hank and I are doing. 

They cite the issue of distraction with food at upper levels being the problem too. I'll be honest that I'm behind a bit on the lectures but FDSA definitely skips the food and the food paired with odor. They also state that the reason food is used so long is because of handler skill level (or lack thereof). You don't need training skill to teach a dog to have drive to hunt for food. So it's interesting because the issues we're discussing here are a lot of issues they bring up. I've long thought these things about traditional nosework training too. The way it's done just doesn't really jive with other sports training. 

I think they are more methodical than I was though. I admittedly winged it. I am going to ask my instructor before class not to pair Hank's hides since we're doing things a bit differently. It's always awkward not wanting to be too pushy with the instructor but also wanting to not confuse your dog with another method. I mostly want classes for experience searching other places and with distractions. Plus my trainer knows the rules for trials.

I honestly feel like nosework trainers will switch to the FDSA style 'straight to odor' type teaching in the future. The sport is so new I think they're still kind of figuring out the better methods of teaching most dogs. I guess one benefit from prolonged search for food is more classes people go through? Not to say everyone is in it for money. The place I go to has actually extended the amount of time on food since Mia and Summer went through intro classes.

EDIT: This is taught by Julie Symons.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I know the lead trainer for my travel classes (he trained my foundations trainer) is strongly in favor of starting on food. He is ex-military and trained detection dogs. I think he is so strongly in favor of starting on food and staying on food for so long mostly due to the attraction of reactive and shy dogs to the sport of nosework. With the large number of dogs who need this to be an entirely positive experience it allows for handler error or just environmentally sensitive dogs to build a strong foundation is purely positive form. If anything the dogs view as negative happens somehow he doesn't want them to associate that with odor. Food is a ubiquitous positive already so even if something negative does happen the dog isn't going to blame the food, if odor is new it might be linked to the negative thing.
> 
> So it's not so much that he thinks the long foundation is needed for most dogs but doesn't want any dog to make a bad association with odor. By teaching them their foundations on food before adding odor it greatly reduces the risk of "poisoning" odor to the more sensitive dogs. So for the benefit of the mass appeal of nosework everyone is slowed down.


Yeah, I can totally understand that argument in favor of using food. I don't think it takes a special or drivey dog to train without food necessarily, but I see how food brings down the level to work for all dogs and handlers. Especially since it's a new sport that will have a lot of completely new people signing up, I do see why they would train it that way.

I do think that sometimes the "official" training methods are a little too dogmatic. The woman we worked with was very much "this is the specific way they tell us to train it and this is how we will do it" and she didn't introduce any creativity or different things for different dogs. She's been in dogs for 20 years, so it's not like she didn't know how to train. She was just super into doing it exactly the way they said it had to be done which I didn't get. Especially because the people in my class were the trainer who owned the facility, and two other women with many many titles on their multiple dogs, and all dogs were confident and searching well from the beginning. The husky was possibly the only one who needed extra time and work, but he was owned by the trainer who owned the facility so I'm sure she had the necessary timing and training skills. I don't see the point in following the syllabus exactly when dogs are obviously ready to work at a different level.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I can totally understand that argument in favor of using food. I don't think it takes a special or drivey dog to train without food necessarily, but I see how food brings down the level to work for all dogs and handlers. Especially since it's a new sport that will have a lot of completely new people signing up, I do see why they would train it that way.
> 
> I do think that sometimes the "official" training methods are a little too dogmatic. The woman we worked with was very much "this is the specific way they tell us to train it and this is how we will do it" and she didn't introduce any creativity or different things for different dogs. She's been in dogs for 20 years, so it's not like she didn't know how to train. She was just super into doing it exactly the way they said it had to be done which I didn't get. Especially because the people in my class were the trainer who owned the facility, and two other women with many many titles on their multiple dogs, and all dogs were confident and searching well from the beginning. The husky was possibly the only one who needed extra time and work, but he was owned by the trainer who owned the facility so I'm sure she had the necessary timing and training skills. I don't see the point in following the syllabus exactly when dogs are obviously ready to work at a different level.


NASCW is weird. I think that's a big issue here. They really tightly control who can be an official K9-nosework trainer. If you don't go through their program and I presume teach their method you can't call your training 'K9-nosework'. You have to call it scent work class or something. And their program is expensive too! 

With UKC nosework coming in I think NOW is when you'll start seeing people branch off. There's not as much of a monopoly on the sport and in some areas I bet UKC takes over and becomes the bigger nosework organization. We'll see though.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I can totally understand that argument in favor of using food. I don't think it takes a special or drivey dog to train without food necessarily, but I see how food brings down the level to work for all dogs and handlers. Especially since it's a new sport that will have a lot of completely new people signing up, I do see why they would train it that way.
> 
> I do think that sometimes the "official" training methods are a little too dogmatic. The woman we worked with was very much "this is the specific way they tell us to train it and this is how we will do it" and she didn't introduce any creativity or different things for different dogs. She's been in dogs for 20 years, so it's not like she didn't know how to train. She was just super into doing it exactly the way they said it had to be done which I didn't get. Especially because the people in my class were the trainer who owned the facility, and two other women with many many titles on their multiple dogs, and all dogs were confident and searching well from the beginning. The husky was possibly the only one who needed extra time and work, but he was owned by the trainer who owned the facility so I'm sure she had the necessary timing and training skills. I don't see the point in following the syllabus exactly when dogs are obviously ready to work at a different level.


I get what your saying. Guess I was lucky in that none of my instructors are locked into that mind set. If one thing wasn't working for a dog they change it up and give other suggestions on methods to try. I don't see them moving always from their current foundations method though. Two rounds of all food classes, and two rounds of food/odor classes fading the food pairing depending on the dog/handler pair rather than a set time. The real fun stuff begins when you join the travel classes though. There you get lots of varying difficulty hides in novel locations, you can search blind or watch other search first. The instructor will always be watching and giving suggestions as they notice things. 

When I have a second dog to start on nosework I plan on doing foundations myself. Very likely starting with food just because I enjoy the simple fun of find it games in the house. Before I even officially started any nosework we would have already played some find it games. Odor would be introduced pretty early and paired with food for a short time. Of course this is just me musing now when I don't have a second nosework dog in sight.


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## kadylady

So this probably seems like a really small thing but.... Skye has started consistently telling us when she has to go out to potty!!!! Last night she went straight to the back door and sat there starring at me. Let her out and she immediately peed. Finally...!!!! Her whole UTI and messed up urine pH really set us back on the potty training and she was reguarly having accidents in her crate and in the house, and I understood why, it was just so frustrating and I was worried that would be tough to fix once everything was cleared up. But since her normal pH test 2 weeks ago she has not had an accident at all and has been telling us more often when she needs to go! Such a relief.


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## CptJack

Small thing nothing! A dog getting reliable with housebreaking is the biggest relief there IS when it comes to dogs - huge, huge weight off and huge way toward making life with them easier.

Congratulations!


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## jade5280

Our behaviorist said that moving can trigger a relapse of SA. We're in the process of buying a house. I feel sick to my stomach just thinking about starting over with Ryker. I hope the transition goes smoothly.


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## Laurelin

I hope it does too! SA is the worst thing I've ever had to deal with with a dog. Just curious did Ryker get better when you added Gypsy? Summer never back slid after getting Mia.


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## jade5280

Laurelin said:


> I hope it does too! SA is the worst thing I've ever had to deal with with a dog. Just curious did Ryker get better when you added Gypsy? Summer never back slid after getting Mia.


 Thank you! No, I made sure he was better before we got Gypsy. I didn't want him influencing another dog and them both ending up with SA. I think having her does help slightly though. The down side is that he can't be left alone without her now. It makes it a little difficult to schedule vet appts for Gypsy since they have to be on a day were SO is around and can stay home with Ryker.


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## knutt_

You guys have to deal with bigger training issues than me and Eryl, so it feels a bit out of place to say how happy I am that today we finally managed to do some "sit-stay-come" training outdoors! Yey! I changed the treats I use, as advised, and there is notable difference. Still can't get him concentrated for more than 3 repetitions, but I guess that's normal, so I'll just keep trying.


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## Flaming

how do I train an automatic "close the door behind you"?

Manna, as long as the door isn't locked, can and does open the back door to the fenced in yard to let herself and Vitae in/out. She doesn't close the door behind her and I have a cat who should be on that kids infomercial as an example why why you shouldn't "put it in your mouth" 

I lock the door when I'm not around to supervise, but on days when I'm just puddering around the house I would like to not lock the door. I basically want to treat the regular door like a doggie door that the cat can't get out of.


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## taquitos

Flaming said:


> how do I train an automatic "close the door behind you"?
> 
> Manna, as long as the door isn't locked, can and does open the back door to the fenced in yard to let herself and Vitae in/out. She doesn't close the door behind her and I have a cat who should be on that kids infomercial as an example why why you shouldn't "put it in your mouth"
> 
> I lock the door when I'm not around to supervise, but on days when I'm just puddering around the house I would like to not lock the door. I basically want to treat the regular door like a doggie door that the cat can't get out of.


Does the door close/lock if the dog pushes it with his front paws? If so, I would teach that separately and then work on pairing the two through backchaining so that Manna learns it as one behavior.


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## Flaming

taquitos said:


> Does the door close/lock if the dog pushes it with his front paws? If so, I would teach that separately and then work on pairing the two through backchaining so that Manna learns it as one behavior.


It would close if she nosed bumped it. 

I have closing it on command, I'm trying to figure out how to make it commandless. She doesn't close it unless told because...I don't know? I'll try the back chaining


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## taquitos

Flaming said:


> It would close if she nosed bumped it.
> 
> I have closing it on command, I'm trying to figure out how to make it commandless. She doesn't close it unless told because...I don't know? I'll try the back chaining


Yeah I don't know if she'll do it on her own... the only thing I can figure out would be if there was some sort of automatic reward for closing the door on her own, you know? Opening doors is self-reinforcing because she gets to go where she wants to go, but closing the door... you'll have to figure out a way of delivering the reward randomly. (Along w/ backchaining being taught in formal training sessions).


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## Laurelin

I'm pretty sure I've inadvertently taught Hank to jump and do a 'flip' on cue. I am not sure it's a true flip per say but he's basically doing a rebound in the air. He jumps up straight then kicks his back legs over his head and lands.

I swear his vertical hops are getting higher. He ends up face height very often. lol

This is what he's doing on cue now (not a video of him but the first few dogs are doing the jump he likes to do): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAUl6z7XKlY

Except I think he goes forward and not backwards.

Several of those dogs look like rat terriers. I wonder if this is a breed thing. I've never had another dog remotely start doing flips on their own.


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## elrohwen

Watson got his RN! Not exactly a hard title for most people, but we have worked hard to get there. It's his first title on the end of his name. There was some spacing out and stress, but we managed. Clearly my ring stress has a *huge* impact on him. Friday morning I got him out to do some work and he was really excited and engaged. The next time I got him out a little less, and then right before ring time even less, so I think it was directly related to my stress level. He spaced out a bit in the ring but pulled it together and had some really nice moments towards the end of the run. Saturday was stressful in general because of Rally being in a different building from where we were crated, and both rally and confo rings taking lunch at the same time, so he basically wandered around the ring like he had never heeled in his life. Still got our best score (93) on the second day, despite the run being sloppy. The first day we only got an 86 because I had to lead him around the right finish with the leash while he was being a space cadet, though the rest of the run was really nice.

Thanks to Dagwall for coming to see us on Saturday!

Our outdoor training has been going much better! I don't have to work as hard to keep his attention and sessions are looking more like they do in the basement where he is engaged and pushy and following me around to work more. I'm used to praising a lot and keeping things moving and upbeat, but I am really not used to cheerleading him through the whole session when he's not offering much of anything, so this is so much easier. The past two times I've used a 20ft long line so he's more or less working off leash and he still stayed with me. A few weeks ago I couldn't get his attention on a 6ft leash. I'm actually getting excited about our private lesson this weekend and I hope his attitude carries over to the training building.


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## CptJack

That is so fantastic! Happy for you and Watson, both!


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## chimunga

I got inspired on working with Watson on objects. So I started seeing what we could do with a tennis ball. It worked awesome! After a solid ten minutes, he can now roll and paw target his tennis ball on cue. His tennis ball is named red, because it's red, and I'm unimaginative. But EEEEE I super excited. Now I wanna practice some more and start working on him understand other named objects. This is the first solid breakthrough that we've had in a while. This one little thing. I love it.


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## CptJack

I am going to call leaving a class bloody, bruised, and in tears a milestone. 

I am also going to take a hot bath with a bottle of wine. 

Molly was sharper and more reactive for most of the class, but managed. Until the end, when she skipped going through the tunnel, made a right turn and rushed another dog. She didn't get closer than probably 7 feet from it, wasn't growling and barking or anything at the time, but still. It's really only LUCK that had her going after a dog who stood there and wagged its tail at her. ...The bloody and bruised was because after I got her to come back I inexplicably tripped over my own feet and fell on my face. 

So, you know, I sat in the corner and calmed her down, quietly cried with my back turned to the class, slipped out before it was quite over, came home and emailed an apology to the instructor. 

I just. Argh, dog. You were doing so well. What. The. Heck.


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## elrohwen

Oh no! That sucks! Big hugs. I've certainly been there (crying after a class) and it's an awful feeling. Two steps forward one step back sometimes. She'll get there!


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Oh no! That sucks! Big hugs. I've certainly been there (crying after a class) and it's an awful feeling. Two steps forward one step back sometimes. She'll get there!


I swear to god if my husband hadn't talked me down, I am pretty sure I would have sworn off agility out of pure embarrassment - and I don't mean just with Molly. I don't even know WHY that hit me so hard, to be honest. Objectively? She listened. She came and downed when I told her. She didn't make contact. She didn't come close to making contact. The other dog was literally standing there wagging her tail at Molly. 

And I STILL just... walked off in tears going "I can't see any of these people again, EVER. They're going to all hate me and Andrea's going to kick me out of class, anyway. I'll just save her the trouble."

I don't know, but seriously. Alcohol, hot water, and I think I'm eating chocolate for dinner. Both of my knees, by the way, are PURPLE and I somehow managed to kick myself in the shin and remove all the skin from it. Just. Just. WHINE.


----------



## trainingjunkie

You aren't a serious dog person until you have left a class crying. Really.

It will pass. Dogs will be dogs. In real life agility, there won't be other dogs on your course. I won't run in a class where things like that can happen, so you are more brave than me right from the start.

Thinking of you. Your classmates are fine. This sort of thing is waiting for all of them if they haven't lived it already.

It's all good!


----------



## Kyllobernese

Went to an Obedience Fun Match with Kris on Sunday. I have been working really hard on her for the past year to stop her being reactive with strange dogs (she would lunge and bark at them) and it looks like it has finally paid off. She was really good. They had the Utility and Open Obedience first so we were there from 9 am till she went in the ring at 2 pm. She had a passing mark in her CD work but even though her recall is really good and fast, she still needs more work on coming straight in front of me. It always seems like there is something else to work on but now the main hurdle of her wanting to leap at other dogs has improved when she is on leash, I can see maybe getting her into at least a Rally class to start with. The only problem is they are few and far between.

She loves doing Agility and has never paid any attention to other dogs when she is off leash and doing it but needs a little more work on her contacts. She does the weaves from both sides but needs a little more work yet, but is fine with all the other equipment.


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## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> You aren't a serious dog person until you have left a class crying. Really.
> 
> It will pass. Dogs will be dogs. In real life agility, there won't be other dogs on your course. I won't run in a class where things like that can happen, so you are more brave than me right from the start.
> 
> Thinking of you. Your classmates are fine. This sort of thing is waiting for all of them if they haven't lived it already.
> 
> It's all good!


Thank you. This made me cry again, but I'm clearly emotionally sensitive tonight and it was a good thing.

I exchanged a couple of emails with the instructor talking about what happened but mostly just got a lot of reassurance and her making sure I didn't murder myself when I fell. I don't love the way these classes are set up - did not bother me with Kylie, but Kylie is utterly nonreactive to everything and so was every other dog in her class. I also don't have a whole ton of choice for selection and the instructor REALLY does try within the limitations of the location and time frame. 

GOod news, is, I don't need *These* classes to teach me much, so I can do a lot more focusing on Molly going forward.

But yeah. The world hasn't ended. Something went wrong, we will make sure next time we fail, we fail differently.


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## trainingjunkie

Perfect attitude. Really.

I walked out of a class crying when I was working on open obedience. The instructor had shamed me, very seriously. 

When I was walking out, I was DONE with obedience. Done with it. Fortunately, a very respected judge followed me out and told me that my dog was trying hard and that his attitude was special. Because of those kind words, I found a different place to train and ended up having a really neat time competing in obedience.

Sometimes, set-backs are springboards. A beautiful irony! 

Again, thinking of you.


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## elrohwen

If it makes you feel better, Watson left me to charge at the other dogs literally every class. I wasn't afraid he would hurt them but I was afraid a few of them would hurt him (he was charged as well). If it's only happened once I'd say you're doing pretty well. Haha. He also freaked out and barked and screamed at dogs in class every time. Again not as cujo as Molly, but equally as annoying to everyone and frustrating for me. You're not alone. Not sure if that makes you feel better or worse though. Haha


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## Laurelin

Hank rebound!


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## CptJack

Fortunately, I am now 900% sure Molly doesn't rush with the intent of doing damage. The more we deal with this and more she matures I realize that the reactive behavior I see in class, is the same stuff I saw for a while with the neighbor's dog, before they met, and the same stuff I see at home when she plays fun police - but with more frustration. Tonight confirmed it with me, because Instructor was able to see stuff I didn't. Like Molly stopping several feet away, dropping her head and wagging her tail uncertainly. There's some fear there, but there's also a lot of frustration. Unfortunately, that won't stop another dog responding to her by tearing her face off and making this whole situation so much worse. 

And she definitely, still, sounds like freaking cujo. Makes me feel better not to be alone in having That Dog, though, so thank you.


I think I'm actually going to take a little bit of a mental breather with this. Not stop classes, but kind of let myself play with her tomorrow and just kick back and relax about it. Go back to my original goal which is teach her that what other dogs are doing, or not doing, doesn't involve her. Molly and I feed off each other A TON more than the other dogs have, and right now between Kylie's pre-trial run throughs and private classes and Molly's classes I'm doing agility four or five days a week, and me stressing about this weekend is leaking out in weird ways. I don't care about Kylie's performance there, I'd just like to have the experience with her, and I have FUN with her, but I'm still stressing it more than I need to be, and putting way too much pressure on Molly. In retrospect I don't doubt that she's responding to that and that didn't help us tonight. She's a puppy. 

Not a doubt in my mind, though, that if I'd gotten negative feedback after that class tonight that I would have walked and not come back. I would have been destroyed by being shamed, and I'm really grateful I got a bunch of support, encouragement and reminders that my dog being a nut-case isn't the end of the world. It isn't even a particularly big deal. 

She ran away from the tunnel and toward another dog. I'm not letting that stop me. 

Also: GO HANK!


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## lauren17

I decided I need to join this thread so I can vent. Roo is only 14 months old (Aussie) so I try to remember that he is a puppy still and I'm really bad about comparing him to my older Aussie. He is just a very different dog than him and I need to not expect as much as a young age. My agility classes this week and last were just terrible. He now barks, screams, throws the biggest temper tantrums when he sees other dogs. He literally was rolling on the ground screaming like a toddler that didn't get his way. He was doing so great in his classes at a younger age and now it takes everything I have to try and get him to focus back on me. It takes a good hour for him to find his brain and remember I'm on the other end of the leash with some tasty treats and then he's great for the last 10 minutes of class. Just got really frustrated and exhausted this week after spending most of the class in the parking lot.


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## elrohwen

Oh yeah, I have always had "That Dog". I was so happy to quit agility classes because every single class was just frustrating. I could keep his attention for a few turns, but then one time he would fly out of a tunnel right towards the other dogs so he could wiggle and sniff butts. He was just excited and distracted, but there were a few dogs in class (specifically a 100lb bouvier, and a golden who didn't like any dogs in his space) who really didn't like him (I guess because he was intact) so he could have gotten himself into real trouble. 

Instructors have seen worse than you, trust me! And I think instructors appreciate the people who are trying to work on things and figure them out. It's not like you're clueless or don't try to work on Molly's issues or just cause disruptions over and over. 

With that said, it might not be the right situation for her right now. I realized with Watson that we will never take classes where other dogs are allowed in the ring, and I'm unlikely to do it with my next dog. It created so many bad habits, and instead of focusing on learning I just focused on him not running up to other dogs and freaked out that someone would take his face off for being rude. I think you've also mentioned that there are other reactive dogs in the class, which isn't going to help Molly very much.



lauren17 said:


> I decided I need to join this thread so I can vent. Roo is only 14 months old (Aussie) so I try to remember that he is a puppy still and I'm really bad about comparing him to my older Aussie. He is just a very different dog than him and I need to not expect as much as a young age. My agility classes this week and last were just terrible. He now barks, screams, throws the biggest temper tantrums when he sees other dogs. He literally was rolling on the ground screaming like a toddler that didn't get his way. He was doing so great in his classes at a younger age and now it takes everything I have to try and get him to focus back on me. It takes a good hour for him to find his brain and remember I'm on the other end of the leash with some tasty treats and then he's great for the last 10 minutes of class. Just got really frustrated and exhausted this week after spending most of the class in the parking lot.


I feel your pain! We're all right in the middle of venting about our dogs in agility classes, so your timing is perfect. Haha.


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## CptJack

Unfortunately, while you might be right:

It's these classes, or nothing.

I could afford to take private classes, but my instructor doesn't have room to take on more regular students; she's full. The only way Kylie even gets the occasional lesson (and it's occasional) is when the flyball team has a tournament or there are cancellations for other reasons and enough advanced notice. Waiting isn't going to help, either, because this facility is the only one I can get to that will work with dog reactive dogs AT ALL (as in 'we don't work with reactive dogs, period) AND they don't do crates in agility (or any) classes, either. Stopping/waiting just means she has no classes, anywhere, and on top of it sees no dogs she's not living with except for hauling her to PetSmart which is actually a lot less controlled than a class with other reactive dogs who have owners working with them and the culture prevents 'Let my dog come up to yours and sniff it'/pounce it. 

So, basically until or unless I'm prepared to call it quits on not just agility but dealing with her reactivity, or I have reason to believe a total lack of exposure to dogs is somehow going to help her, we're going to keep plugging along. Good news is, last night sucked but overall she's improved dramatically both on leash and off with focus and the exercises. So, I guess we'll reassess over the next few classes, but probably this just is what it is and both she and I are going to have to find ways to deal. Even if it means skipping off leash everything and not really doing anything agility related, this is the only resource I have for this. I need to make it work.


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## elrohwen

I could have written your post many times  I remember last year when everybody was telling me to quit my classes, and I kept saying that I couldn't because I didn't have any other options. Well, I quit anyway because of work, and I just don't have the heart to sign up again and be frustrated every week. I was able to find a new place, though I don't know yet if it will fit us any better. 

But I got to the point with Watson where classes were just making everything worse. He never got better about running up to the other dogs, he never got better at jumping, he only got more and more afraid of the teeter as she let advanced dogs slam it down during our beginner class, etc etc. It was a fine class for everyone else there, but it was never going to work for us. I'm not sure when I would have made that decision if it wasn't made for me, but I'm glad we were forced to stop. It sucks, because it means we will likely never compete in agility, but who knows. I'm so much less stressed out by not going to that class every week just to watch my dog fail over and over again.


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## CptJack

I can pretty well promise you that if we reach the point of failing every week instead of getting back on track that I won't stay in classes or any kind of training, period, and I'll be okay with that. But as much as thisweek sucked, she's less reactive to EVERYTHING in general lately, and frankly a week ago she was successfully doing off leash recalls and work past other dogs without trouble. 

I'm just not prepared to take one incident of her running out but stopping several (as in many, I don't know, more than 6 less than 10) feet of another dog and then changing her mind about the wisdom of the idea, coming back to me when I called and lying down when asked as a sign that it's time to quit. Especially not when it was predictable if I'd been paying attention to what she was focused on (the dogs near us instead of the tunnel) . If this becomes her new normal behavior when let off, sure. If it seriously stresses me, okay. 

But for now? Nah. This just wasn't that big of a deal.


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## elrohwen

And I'm not saying you should quit! I'm just sharing my situation, and the fact that a class that isn't right for a dog can start to go downhill no matter how hard you try to make it work, but all that means is that the class is not right.

Your first post had a lot of stress and thoughts of quitting and while I know you are not quitting right now, my point is that sometimes that is the right decision. Personally, I wish I had reached that decision sooner if only for my own stress levels (clearly quitting didn't help us advance in agility since we never found an alternative).


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## CptJack

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get defensive at you.

I think right now, I'm still kind of trying to fight off my own desire to quit. I don't think quitting right now is the right decision, and the reason I kind of want to is still unrelated to stress levels, or the class setting my dog up for failure, or it damaging my relationship with my dog or what have you, which are all very valid reasons to quit. I will TRY to be balanced about assessing those things. Ultimately, though? I have some... mental habits that result in me self-sabotaging rather than risking failure (ie: looking for excuses to quit) AND I respond to being embarrassed by wanting to run away and hide FOREVER. 

To put into perspective, last night I wasn't thinking about quitting with Molly. I was thinking about quitting with Molly AND with Kylie, and pulling Kylie from a trial I've already paid for, never entering her in another because I might see these people, and never taking any dog to any class held at that facility again, even twenty years from now. (Also bonus: It gives me an excuse not to go to the trial and risk either success OR failure in competition). 

That... isn't a well thought out rational decision about what's best, or just letting go of something. That's just pure emotional meltdown and CRAZY levels of overreaction. 

I managed to shake most of it off last night, but that gut level "FLEE" thing is still lurking around and I'm having to check myself in regards to it and talk to myself like a stranger to keep from lapsing back into that nonsense. If I end up deciding to quit at some point, I want it to be a *decision*. Not just... me justifying my knee jerk desire to run.


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## kadylady

Sorry you had a crappy night CptJack. That's what I would chalk it up to...a bad night. From your posts it sounds like she really is doing better so to have one bad night...it happens. It would be abnormal if she didn't have a bad night (and it doesn't even sound like the whole class was bad?). Dogs have bad days too. Obviously if it were/becomes reoccurring then that is another issue. But just take it as information to work with and learn from. And hopefully next week will be better. Also....BABY DOG! She's allowed to make mistakes and it sounds like she came back from her mistake beautifully. That you should celebrate.

I totally agree with you that she could be picking up on your pre trial nerves. And don't freak out about having trial nerves, it's so normal to have them and totally okay to have them! I still get them and I've been trialing for a year and a half now. People that have been trialing way longer still get them. It's totally normal and okay, you just have to figure out how to best deal with them for you.


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## Laurelin

She's also just young. Don't forget that.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like a big deal at all to me. It really doesn't sound that bad. Hank ran off towards another dog twice last week. Hank just wants to play with everything and his BFF EVER is in our class. The Hank look alike (BC x terrier girl) is really reactive and it's a struggle for them but she's making strides. BOTH my trainers' dogs are reactive to other dogs. Hank overstimulates at fast loud dogs. Tries to jerk out of my hands and screams. 

Sometimes dogs are going to blow you off. *shrug*


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## CptJack

Most of the class was okay - not spectacularly good, but able to work in close quarters with the other dogs going around in circles (well squares) working on crosses, and actually did okay on the practice exercise at the start of class (mark, get out, mark) stuff. She was more ramped up going into the building than we've seen in a while, but actual REACTIVITY was... limited. Not quite non-existent, but limited. 

And honestly, no, it wasn't a big deal. I don't know WHY it exploded that way in my head, but all she actually did was blow off a tunnel and run in the direction of another dog. I guess I expected trouble? But she stopped herself, she recalled well, she listened to commands. Instructor even pointed out in her emails that "She didn't actually GO AFTER anyone." I somehow skipped reading that, but it's true. In essence my 11 month old baby dog got distracted. I really should have just taken her back and sent her through the tunnel and rewarded her heavily for that, instead of panicking at her.

Anyway, yeah. Nerves and jitters and me turning what amounts to a kind of bad night into a catastrophe. There was good success in there, in the recovering, in the friendly approach to the other dog before I recalled her, and in the rest of the class.


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## jade5280

Congrats on your RN, Watson! That's great!

CptJack sorry you had a bad time in class. There have been so many times where I just wanted to walk out of class with Ryker or stop going altogether.


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## MrsBoats

trainingjunkie said:


> You aren't a serious dog person until you have left a class crying. Really.
> 
> It's all good!


Oh boy....ain't that the truth. I can honestly admit that when Lars and I were regularly taking classes for agility when he was about 1 year old to he was about 3 years old, I cried myself home most weeks. He was a spectacular, ****** baggy egomaniac who didn't want to be a team player. Lars and his bombastic agility energy honestly scared the instructors and my classmates (it took people months to figure out that he was harmless.) I regularly asked people if agility was really this hard. It was like having a relationship with the bad boyfriend of the year. But there was a blessing to Lars and his crazy wildness in agility....I am more than ready for Ocean as an agility dog. His speed, power, and drive don't intimidate me like Lars' once did. There will be a blessing to Molly you don't realize yet....trust me.

It will absolutely pass....you will learn how to manage it. You may not be able to truly fix it...but you will figure out how to manage her. I'm walking a new life path myself...and I'm having to learn that what other people think of me is none of my business. What anyone in your class may think of you....it's not your problem or your issue. 

Stick with the path...it's going to be an incredible learning experience even though it may not feel like it now. Here's my favorite phrase I say when my boys are being challenging "This will make me a better trainer." Molly will make you a better trainer. 

Your classmates really are fine. And just like what trainingjunkie said...they very well could have had a dog like Molly in the past once...and if they haven't, they will someday.


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## MrsBoats

Here's something to consider too....maybe agility is Molly's gig. I finally figured out after 6 years...agility wasn't where Lars shone (as much as I killed myself to try to make it so.) His drive that was the bane of my existence in agility is a gift in competitive obedience. So, we more ore less dumped agility from his workload and went exclusively to obedience where he seems to be thriving. He screws around in agility here at the house....but I probably won't trial him in it again. Now running Ocean in agility where I can see him run with intensity but stay level headed and show control/thought...it made my decision to scrub Lars from agility much easier. I realized what Lars couldn't do even after 5 years of me banging my head against a wall. 

Have you tried anything else with her like herding or formal obedience?? Border Collies excel in obedience and herding. Maybe agility is too over stimulating for her (which was Lars' case) right now. Just some thoughts...


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## CptJack

Yeah. I'm feeling a lot better about it overall today. We went out, we played, she's an awesome dog regardless.

And ironically, the only thing she even batted an eyelash at today, was a magazine that had fallen out of a mailbox that was flapping around in the wind. Otherwise, while we SAW dogs (at some distance) and people, she just... didn't care.


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## CptJack

Molly's THING is almost without any doubt disc stuff. Which is kind of weird because it's higher energy, faster, and seems MORE stimulating. 

I think I'll be able to get a more accurate read on agility when we're... doing agility. She's better when she's engaged and learning. Frankly, right now, she's on her second trip through the foundations class. She knows all the material. I'd honestly guess bored-slash-not engaged ENOUGH before overstimulated. Like there's more of her brain available to obsess at the other dogs. Engaged in new material or REALLY playing with me with something she loves, she's pretty solid. Definitely she needs some impulse control work overall, but I really don't think there's too much going on right now. It's get outs and paw targeting and downs and crosses. The tunnel is really the only thing involved.

And it's honestly moving at the speed of molasses overall (ie: other dogs aren't running around much/at all.)

ETA: Sorry for the double post, we were posting across each other.


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## MrsBoats

Do you have to be in the ring when you're having down time?? Can you remove her from the ring and crate her with a cover when she's not working?? 

I understand what's happening...my boys hate sitting around too. When there is too much down time, we start heeling around using the other dogs/people as distractions, work fronts/finishes, rally moves, etc. so I can keep them from obsessing over what else is going on around them. Lars used to scream at other dogs on agility equipment and has broken leashes on me to get on equipment when another dog is working (seriously scared the S out of the class.) Ocean, I play with a lot with balls on ropes and tugs so he's not worrying what the dog next to him is doing. At an agility trial, you'll see me heeling all over the place and working obedience while we're moving up in the run order to get to the start line. The last thing I need is for Lars or Ocean to just sit there and watch the dogs run before them. They just load and then they start leaking energy/drive like a sieve and that is an epic fail when I step up to the start line. 

Can you just keep her working on stuff (not even agility related) in class if you can't crate her in between dogs working

(no worries....double posting happens! LOL)


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## CptJack

My plan right now is to change how the classes are formatted for *her*, for these last few. 

Next class/when we move up in June it'll be easy enough to crate her between runs and try that, but the set up of this foundations class is less turn based than it is just completely slow. So ALL the dogs are waiting around at once, or going more or less at once. Some turn stuff, but not a lot. I'll take a better tug toy, and work on some basic tricks and obedience - ideally things with motion - and try and keep her engaged while we're there and see how that goes.

But yeah, that's about what happens. She goes, she's okay, and then we do something and we get to move fast for like 10 seconds and it's exciting and it's fun and she's up and ready and eager and then. She's got nothing to do with that energy and 'up' and, predictably, kind of looks for other things to get fixated on/get excited about. I just need to be faster on heading that off/not letting it happen. I think my biggest real mistake here is not being aware of that going on in the moment and just not keeping her engaged enough, period.

And just ...leave the ring/building altogether if necessary. That's definitely going to be a thing. I might even do some waiting outside here and there, once that becomes a more viable option.


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## MrsBoats

I have a fun food game too you can play in class that I learned in a Fenzi seminar I took with Lars years back. I think will help keep Molly focused on you in class. I'll video it and send it to you on FB. 

Ocean will release frustration through tugging if a dog is running agility in front of him....especially when the teeter bangs (that's his favorite.) He sees or hears the dog on course and he power death thrashes his tuggy leash. I actually want him to release that frustration back at me and the tug instead of outwardly to the environment around us.



> And just ...leave the ring/building altogether if necessary. That's definitely going to be a thing. I might even do some waiting outside here and there, once that becomes a more viable option.


I have done plenty of that over the years too. This is all management...and you do what you have to do sometimes.


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> I have a fun food game too you can play in class that I learned in a Fenzi seminar I took with Lars years back. I think will help keep Molly focused on you in class. I'll video it and send it to you on FB.


Can you send to me too? I'm always trying to find ways to keep him occupied in classes.


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## CptJack

Awesome. Definitely send me the video. 

And yeah, I'm thinking tug is going to be my... not solution but management tool here, at least for a bit. Or, heck, whatever. I'll figure it out, though there's probably going to be some trial and error related to specifics. I'm fairly confident we'll manage to get it sorted, though.


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## MrsBoats

If you have a drivey, intense dog you manage the drive the best you can. There are some days and trials I do better at management than others and I just roll with what dogs I have that day. Some days their energy is closer to normal than usual and some days they are drive leaking lunatics. I've stopped trying to figure out where, what, why, and how...I just roll with it and manage accordingly. That's life with high drive dogs. 

I know I will never have those agility dogs who can sit quietly ringside waiting their turn, then stroll up to the start line, and hold a stay while I stroll out to a 5 jump lead out. That's probably never going to happen with my Legion of Zoom. Between the two of them...Ocean will probably be able to chill better as he ages than Lars ever could in the agility setting. His drive at least as a cap where Lars' went into the stratosphere and off into deep space. But, I will always have to do some level of drive management with him in agility.


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## CptJack

Going from Molly to Kylie or Kylie to Molly gives me mental whiplash, to be really frank. I REALLY enjoy working with both of them, but I swear to god going from a dog who needed a cheerleader forever and is more in danger of going flat than over the top and doesn't really EVER stop focusing on me no matter what to Molly and back again is sometimes a little disorienting. 

OTOH, I am NOT sorry Kylie's as easy as she is. At least I'm not trying to figure out how to do a front cross while managing Molly.


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## MrsBoats

CptJack said:


> OTOH, I am NOT sorry Kylie's as easy as she is. At least I'm not trying to figure out how to do a front cross while managing Molly.


My friend who teaches agility at the place I teach said with Lars, I couldn't have found a harder dog to learn agility on if I tried. LOL Yes....learn on Kylie! Then you can tweak your timing accordingly. But, it hard to run two dogs who handle differently. Lars had NO handler focus and was all about the equipment and Ocean started out having NO obstacle focus and all handler focus. I had one heck of a time going back and forth between the two. Now I have the problem that Ocean is faster than Lars and my timing for him is much different than if Lars and I are screwing around with agility. So, I still have a hard time switching back and forth. LOL


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## Laurelin

So I've totally failed at practicing nosework this week like I was going to. Hank has his first class this Sunday and I HOPE he's not behind the other dogs! I don't think he will be but since I trained him at home by myself I hope I did a good job!


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> So I've totally failed at practicing nosework this week like I was going to. Hank has his first class this Sunday and I HOPE he's not behind the other dogs! I don't think he will be but since I trained him at home by myself I hope I did a good job!


Since Hank is generally a rockstar I'm sure he'll do fine! A lower drive or less quick dog I might worry, but I don't think you have to worry about Hank.


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## Laurelin

We had a good session today. I meant to video it but.... I fail at camera operating. I videoed me carrying the camera around and apparently turned it off when we went to work. DERP

We did a lot today- nosework hides on and off leash. I'm lazy and I like to work off leash but I realized that his class is going to be on leash. He definitely was more confused about what we were doing with the leash on.

Then we worked the paps and they did good with all the hides

Then I brought Hank out to do obedience. We worked sit/down/stay with kids biking on our street and our neighbor playing off leash in her yard with her German shepherd. Holy wow am I proud of him. He was dragging a long line for easy grab/safety but did not try to bolt at all! We're starting some prep work for heeling. I don't know about obedience but we may actually do some rally-o. He is just so good at working. I don't even know how to explain but he loves the sit/down/stay exercises and is liking the pivot into heel we're doing. So we'll see.

Then in agility work we did backing up onto his contact plank and reinforcing the 2o/2o. He is doing very well but often will swing in a circle and then go forward on the board and then turn and put his front feet off the board. So we're working rear targeting with his BACK feet and rewarding only for the times he backs up onto the board versus the whole swing around thing. I probably should have done our cik/cap homework but I totally forgot.


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## Laurelin

Obedience training is like 100000000x more fun with Hank versus paps. I am thinking about looking into classes though the only school I know says they do mostly positive but also use choke chains. I know someone that teaches the confo classes there. I am thinking about asking to see if I can watch a class and if they'll let me skip the choke chain with Hank. I don't see remotely how it would be helpful for Hank. He is easy and very well behaved. Then again their classes are way more than my agility classes and they require you to go through pet obedience first. And I think it would be stupid because Hank knows it all already.

I don't want to overschedule Hank though. He's about to be in class 2x a week. I'm just worried that if I try obedience foundations myself I'll mess something up if we want to compete in the future because I have no idea what I'm doing. I DOUBT I'd compete in anything past rally-o really. So maybe I should just do some heeling classes online next time FDSA offers them.


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## elrohwen

What about FDSA? I took Precision Heeling at gold and it is still one of the best classes I've taken. That will set you up for really doing anything in Rally and low level obedience. The only other obedience stuff you'll have left is stuff like long sit/down (which I hate working on and do appreciate having a class to provide other dogs and force me to do it), retrieve (which you should be able to do yourself), and stand for exam (also helpful to have a class). But I've never learned any decent heeling in a class environment - it was all through FDSA and then used in classes.

I'm also not a fan of teaching heeling on leash. I know that lots of super high level people train it on leash (using leash pressure and prong or choke collars) to put the dog in the exact right position, but I just feel like once that leash is gone, how will the dog know where to be? I like Denise Fenzi's method of training it much better.


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## notgaga

I started to do some shaping with Laika, which I haven't explicitly tried to do before, during her dinner tonight. With a tennis ball. If the dog won't play fetch on her own, then by Pete we're just gonna change the fetch paradigm. 

So far we've gotten the ball into the mouth, and the chasing after the ball (3-4 feet away inside), putting it into the mouth and then dropping it and returning. Then we ran out of food. Tomorrow we'll work on the returning of the ball.

No idea if this is a thing or if it'll even work, but she really took to shaping so it's worth a try.


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## jade5280

We went to an all day tracking clinic today and I was shocked at how well behaved Ryker was. He didn't bark once. There were probably 5 or so reactive GSDs there and he didn't even bat an eye. He hardly whined and didn't try to jump on anyone. We were even complemented by quite a few other people how well behaved he was *gasp* I never thought I would see the day. He also did extremely well with the tracking part, but got burnt out after a while so once we got to that point we gave him a break. I couldn't have asked for a better partner today. He's exhausted and sleeping right now.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Ember is already showing signs of fear aggression toward dogs. Another puppy pawed her in the face. She angry snapped and pulled back quickly. I really don't know what to do other than reward the crap out of her at classes for looking at/sniffing other dogs with curiosity. I can't find a formal puppy class that doesn't suck. We are currently in puppy agility which also has a little time for socialization.

On a positive note.. this puppy is already asking to go outside to potty at only 10 weeks old. She can also hold her pee almost an hour. I'm baffled. I can already tell this puppy is going to be brilliant, but I can also tell she is going to need some management.


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## CptJack

Sounds a LOT like Molly - honestly Molly baffled me a lot, because she never seemed much like a baby. Not just smart, but early signs of her adult temperament, physical coordination, and picking up stuff like housebreaking and training eerie fast. 

All I can really suggest is follow basic BAT/LAT type protocol, and get your hands on Control Unleashed, The Puppy Program. There's good stuff in there, and since you're noticing stuff early you've got a lot of room to work on it. Also try not to make too big of a deal out of it. At 10 weeks it IS possible that it's just a fear period or just some strange puppy thing. Don't ignore it, do work on it, but don't let it consume you.

You'll be all right, regardless.


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## chimunga

I think Watson is finally starting to find praise rewarding. He used to not do any tricks (fancy stuff, not like sit or down) unless I had treats visibility in my hand. I've started asking him for random nose touches around the house, and he seems genuinely pleased with himself even if he isn't getting food.


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## chimunga

Progress!



Only when I'm trying to take pictures of him do I realize that I really need to work on calming him down around food. New goal.


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## Eenypup

Bennie did so well on our walks today! Especially the one I had dedicated to training and walking down new streets. She's really getting the "look" command and in general is paying attention to my cues and the leash pressure. Certainly not perfect but seeing good days with progress keeps me going! 

And probably an even bigger deal is that she was able to focus on me when she knew a cat was behind her! It wasn't really close to us but having her notice the cat and then turn around, look at me, and listen to commands?? Huge for her!! It used to be that once she saw any prey animal it was game over unless I had a hot dog, and even then she was mostly whining and just barely paying attention. Today was just kibble, pretty good attention although she stole a few glances, and even did some tricks. So proud!


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## elrohwen

We had another private lesson yesterday. Things are going much better! Watson is starting to relax in the training facility and he was much more excited to work. We also started working with the ecollar which went really well. For our lesson in two weeks we're going to a local park to see how he does outside, which is going to be awful. I really need to get it together and train in new places for the next couple weeks. I finally got him responsive outside at my house, so that's the next logical step.


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## ireth0

Luna did an awesome job last night in tricks class doing pivots with her front paws on a stool. We hadn't practiced it before, but she was all "Oh, this is what we're doing? Okay."


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## CptJack

...Molly's reactivity seems to be falling off. Not necessarily the dog stuff, but the everything else stuff. We were out for a good hour yesterday, and on our way to the field where we played we passed bicycles, people walking, people running, a park full of screaming children running around and she... did absolutely nothing. We even passed a flock of random chickens and while she really wanted to check those out/chase them, there was no craziness - just pricked ears and a wagging tail and a whine. She got handfuls of food stuffed in her face, for being good and moving on.

That's kind of huge.


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## CptJack

Class tonight was a thing of beauty. We have a make-up class tomorrow that's being held outside, in a field surrounded on 3 sides by livestock and that may be more difficult but I'm not having too many concerns about moving on to the beginner class right now. That starts June 9. But seriously, she was - well, danged close to perfect. Friendly, attentive, relaxed, easy to focus for the most part and just all around good. 

So, June 9th, agility goes on.


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## Laurelin

Hank is actively outing his tug when asked! Yaaaaaaaaay!

(It's the little things lol. This has been a hard thing to teach him)


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## lauren17

So proud of Roo last night at agility. He was much more focused and I didn't have to take him to the parking lot from screaming at dogs even when they ran! Not that he didn't bark at all but still a huge step from the last couple weeks when I couldn't get his attention for anything. I'm finding that keeping him moving while dogs run helps some just difficult with a larger class. Also he stayed right with me while running the courses and did awesome!


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## kadylady

Last night my friend and I practiced recalls together with our young ones (Skye and her BFF 18 month old Aussie). We started with tandem recalls, recalling them both at the same time from a stay, then practiced calling them out one at a time. It was hard but they both did really well. Then they got to play crazy chase games.


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## elrohwen

Training is going so horribly this week and last week. Watson is just shutting down on me outside, and any heel I can get is so laggy and awful. He is uninterested in even paying attention to me. He just stares around looking for birds and chipmunks.

And then we go down to the basement and he's jumping around and prancing and full of himself and can't wait to do anything I ask him to do. I just wish I could figure it out. Why can't I get that kind of enthusiasm literally anywhere else on the planet? I don't think I'm doing anything different inside vs outside (and by outside I mean anywhere outside of the basement)

I'm getting really close to giving up on him. I would like to stick with the private lessons for a bit if only to get a better recall, but then I'm going to focus on the puppy and just let him be. Neither of us are having fun except in our little bubble of the training area in the basement. Sometimes I think I'm making progress and we're having fun and connecting, but then we take two big steps back.

I don't understand why it's so hard. I see other people who are way more incompetent than I am having decent success with their dogs (and by success I mean that they can participate in a beginner agility class - the bar is low). He has so many great qualities, and we have so much fun training together, and then he just goes somewhere else and says "don't want to don't have to".. He's not fearful, he's not particularly reactive, he's soft but not that soft. On paper he seems like such a fun dog to do sports with, but we just can't get it together. I've worked with so many trainers and done what they told me to do and none of it has really worked - he can't be that difficult of a dog.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Training is going so horribly this week and last week. Watson is just shutting down on me outside, and any heel I can get is so laggy and awful. He is uninterested in even paying attention to me. He just stares around looking for birds and chipmunks.
> 
> And then we go down to the basement and he's jumping around and prancing and full of himself and can't wait to do anything I ask him to do. I just wish I could figure it out. Why can't I get that kind of enthusiasm literally anywhere else on the planet? I don't think I'm doing anything different inside vs outside (and by outside I mean anywhere outside of the basement)
> 
> I'm getting really close to giving up on him. I would like to stick with the private lessons for a bit if only to get a better recall, but then I'm going to focus on the puppy and just let him be. Neither of us are having fun except in our little bubble of the training area in the basement. Sometimes I think I'm making progress and we're having fun and connecting, but then we take two big steps back.
> 
> I don't understand why it's so hard. I see other people who are way more incompetent than I am having decent success with their dogs (and by success I mean that they can participate in a beginner agility class - the bar is low). He has so many great qualities, and we have so much fun training together, and then he just goes somewhere else and says "don't want to don't have to".. He's not fearful, he's not particularly reactive, he's soft but not that soft. On paper he seems like such a fun dog to do sports with, but we just can't get it together. I've worked with so many trainers and done what they told me to do and none of it has really worked - he can't be that difficult of a dog.


I'm sorry you're having frustrations. 

Does he go down to the basement any time other than for training? I tried doing nosework in our basement with Luna but because it was an unfamiliar/new and exciting space she was just all over the place and not focusing. Pulling on leash and going so fast and crash/banging into everything. Not a productive training experience. So I went back to using our living room, even though it's less ideal space-wise. Living room is normal and boring and she is able to focus much better.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I'm sorry you're having frustrations.
> 
> Does he go down to the basement any time other than for training? I tried doing nosework in our basement with Luna but because it was an unfamiliar/new and exciting space she was just all over the place and not focusing. Pulling on leash and going so fast and crash/banging into everything. Not a productive training experience. So I went back to using our living room, even though it's less ideal space-wise. Living room is normal and boring and she is able to focus much better.


Not really. He might come down with me quickly if I get something (most of our pantry items and extra fridge are down there). 90% of the time he's only down there for training, and 10% of the time for quick trips.

I think he's just so conditioned that basement = fun training time. And outside = do whatever you want and completely ignore mom time. Despite trying for years to get some attention outside, rewarding offered attention, etc. Some days it's fine and we do fun stuff outside, and then other days he is just so not interested and does not care. Any attention or focus I can get always feels so fragile. It's like we're back in agility classes, where he can do a couple jumps and get treats stuffed in his face, but then the next run he is just not interested and zooms off to check out other things. I'm praising and jumping around and treating like crazy, and he still just randomly decides that he's not interested in anything I have to offer and checks out. 

This is exactly what I've been trying very hard to fix for the past month and a half of private instruction, and it seemed like it was going better, but a couple bad sessions the past week have just totally shattered my motivation to keep trying. At least if I knew what to do and was making progress, but it feels like we're back where we started after putting in so much work.


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## trainingjunkie

One of the really hard lessons that I learned with Gator is that trying many things with many trainers was recipe for disaster. It inhibited his ability to understand behavior and predict outcomes. Picking a method and then staying with has yielded the best results. Thanks to my mistakes with him, I am so much better able to train my younger dogs. They know what my criteria are, they know how I will react. Our communication is clear. Doesn't mean we have it all worked out, (we don't!) but we are headed in the right direction.

I am considering making some slight changes in my training style, but I am really, really thinking about 1.) If the changes are important. 2.) How I will introduce the changes. 3.) How I will react if I decide the changes were in error. Until I have a plan, I will just keep doing what I am doing. Knowing how switching things up affected my first dog and how the confusion impacted his stress levels and performance, I am going to be extremely mindful about transitioning my training plans.

I ruined my first dog's agility career by playing around with methods. Never again!

When things start to go badly, take 3 months off. Just quit for a while. You can always start back. Each dog has something to teach us. It doesn't matter if the titles come or not. Training is a fun game that we play with our dogs. It's the training that shapes the relationship, not the performances or the outcomes. Nothing changes when you get a UD or an RAE. You just keep playing the games. No pressure. When I can let go of outcomes and just enjoy the dog, things go so much better. I recently crashed out my new dog by getting hung up on outcomes. Lesson learned! Back to the fun and everything will be okay. The only change I need to make is in my approach and my own attitude.

I find that when I let the dog teach ME, the fun comes back and the training goes better. Always a learning process. And when I get a bit burnt out, I hike more and train either less or not at all. It's always shocking to me how much the dogs remember when we return to the work. Oftentimes, they are actually better after a break. Stepping back is so freeing. I do it often.


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## elrohwen

Well, we just came off of a really long break. Like almost a year break. Haha. And when I did put him back in a class at the beginning of this year he was having so much fun and doing so well. So I thought we could work with that and just focus on getting the same kind of thing off leash. And then it just came crashing back down around me to where we were well over a year ago. 

I really don't care about titles anymore. I don't like competing and I don't like trials and I don't know that I ever will, so that's fine if we don't do those things. I just want to have fun with my dog and have a relationship where we can communicate with each other, but sometimes I feel like I'm trying to communicate with a brick wall.

ETA: And I do agree that playing around with methods is not helping. The second he is confused about something he shuts down and finds something else to do. Maybe I'm just dealing with confusion right now, and that's something I can work with. But honestly I haven't found my training method yet, so I don't feel like there's much I can do except try with other people recommend. I take a Fenzi class and do what they suggest for a while, or I find a new trainer locally and do what they suggest for a while, but then we always end up back where we started.


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## Laurelin

My dogs train best indoors in our usual area. I think that's pretty typical and then bringing that outside to a building or someplace new can be hard. I try to at first really just lower the criteria a lot. I will often sit on the ground and just do small shaping sessions or something incredibly low stress and fun. It takes time to get a dog to realize they can focus and have fun training anywhere. If you did all or most your training with him as a pup in the basement that could take a while to get over/break.

I do agree that a break sounds like a good thing. Several weeks or months even. I've done that with Hank lately- we took about a 3 week break and just hung out and did nothing training-wise at all. I think sometimes they burn out and get frustrated and a break can do worlds of good.

From there I'd just forget I'd done anything much with him at all and start from scratch.


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## CptJack

Random question: 

When you came back to training after the break - how often do you train?


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## trainingjunkie

CptJack said:


> Random question:
> 
> When you came back to training after the break - how often do you train?


Who are you addressing?


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> My dogs train best indoors in our usual area. I think that's pretty typical and then bringing that outside to a building or someplace new can be hard. I try to at first really just lower the criteria a lot. I will often sit on the ground and just do small shaping sessions or something incredibly low stress and fun. It takes time to get a dog to realize they can focus and have fun training anywhere. If you did all or most your training with him as a pup in the basement that could take a while to get over/break.
> 
> I do agree that a break sounds like a good thing. Several weeks or months even. I've done that with Hank lately- we took about a 3 week break and just hung out and did nothing training-wise at all. I think sometimes they burn out and get frustrated and a break can do worlds of good.
> 
> From there I'd just forget I'd done anything much with him at all and start from scratch.


Yeah, lately we've just been doing super simple fun shaping stuff outside. Can you make eye contact? Yay party! Can you do your favorite trick ever? Yay party! 

Obviously I should have done more training outside when he was little and still off leash reliable. We did a ton of recall practice and stuff, and rewarding for checking in, but not much actual training. Though I thought doing all of the recall stuff and offered attention would be enough. He did do a lot of training in facilities, but he was so overstimulated all the time.

Maybe he just needs lots of breaks. Like every other week breaks. I don't know.


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## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> Who are you addressing?


Elrohwen - sorry.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Random question:
> 
> When you came back to training after the break - how often do you train?


Maybe one class per week, and training sessions every day to every other day? Super short stuff, like 2min max. I'm really not one of those people who can or wants to train for half an hour a day or anything. Lately we have been training every day, but still super short sessions. Maybe one per day with something newer that we are working on (can you grab your dumbbell 5 times? yay!) and then one that is more "can you do things you already know in the driveway?"

One break was 3-4 months where I didn't even really live with him, so we did no training. After that we didn't do any classes or anything official for months, but we did work a lot on loose leash walking and not being insane out and about, so it's not like we weren't training during that time.


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## elrohwen

And he will train "forever" (at least as much I as I want until I get bored) in the basement. Super happy, super pushy, never leaves me, etc. So it's not like all training is bad and I've over done it and he hates it. Literally 20min after a horrible session outside where he wouldn't work at all we went in the basement and he was super enthusiastic to do the exact same stuff I had just asked him for.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Well, we just came off of a really long break. Like almost a year break. Haha. And when I did put him back in a class at the beginning of this year he was having so much fun and doing so well. So I thought we could work with that and just focus on getting the same kind of thing off leash. And then it just came crashing back down around me to where we were well over a year ago.
> 
> I really don't care about titles anymore. I don't like competing and I don't like trials and I don't know that I ever will, so that's fine if we don't do those things. I just want to have fun with my dog and have a relationship where we can communicate with each other, but sometimes I feel like I'm trying to communicate with a brick wall.
> 
> ETA: And I do agree that playing around with methods is not helping. The second he is confused about something he shuts down and finds something else to do. Maybe I'm just dealing with confusion right now, and that's something I can work with. But honestly I haven't found my training method yet, so I don't feel like there's much I can do except try with other people recommend. I take a Fenzi class and do what they suggest for a while, or I find a new trainer locally and do what they suggest for a while, but then we always end up back where we started.


Do you tend to do training 'sessions' more often than just throwing things in everyday life? Idk how to explain but I would try to focus less on doing formal training sessions even if short. Keep yourself loaded with treats and such all the time and just play by ear. When he's in the mood, you're already loaded and ready to reward good stuff.

You probably already do that but I do think trying some fluid fun/pets/whatever to casually asking him for stuff (and not even like real training behaviors, just engagement). Just jumbling training into 'life' as much as possible....

Is there anything that makes him nuts and happy? Something outside of traditional toy or food? 

Hank really needs breaks sometimes. Even just a couple days. My trainer is a big proponent of taking a week or two every now and then to break and just let things sink in so to speak. Hank and I train probably 4 days a week. I find if it is every day he will get bored especially if we're doing similar/the same thing. So I try to vary agility one day and then maybe nothing and then maybe just tricks or maybe just nosework (since nosework is super low stress). We take a week off completely every other month or so. 

I also know you know this but it's really really important to do non training bonding time too and imo in lots more quantity than training. I know I have a tendency to try to make every trip to the park or store or walk a training experience and they really shouldn't be (IMO).


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> And he will train "forever" (at least as much I as I want until I get bored) in the basement. Super happy, super pushy, never leaves me, etc. So it's not like all training is bad and I've over done it and he hates it. Literally 20min after a horrible session outside where he wouldn't work at all we went in the basement and he was super enthusiastic to do the exact same stuff I had just asked him for.


Yeah that's pretty typical imo. Outdoors has many more distractions and a lot of times we build up value like crazy in the 'training area' we have and use all the time. Hank performs best in my front yard and living room because that's where we do the bulk of our training. 

I would probably stop training him at all in the basement for now. I'd also think a lot about you/what you're doing in the basement vs outside. Is there any difference? I don't know but I know with me I often sit inside during training so me sitting outside will often focus him better than me standing.


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## elrohwen

We spend the vast vast majority of our time just hanging out. We walk >1 hour every day, and while I'll reward him for checking in, and maybe practice a few recalls/whiplash turns, we're just chill and hanging out and exploring. If we got to stores, mostly the expectation is that he not be an idiot but we aren't training. And most of the time we're in the house we're just hanging out. I would say overall training time per day is less than 5 min on average (if it's even every day, which is usually isn't)

I do incorporate stuff into regular life if I can. Like if I'm in the kitchen working with meat and cheese and he comes to check it out, we'll do a little heeling or something. And sometimes on a walk if he's offering a lot of attention I'll ask for something (usually tricks). I feel like I've spent his entire life rewarding him for engagement, offered attention, etc etc. But then it's still only there when he feels like offering it. I don't have a way to ask for it and get it consistently and that's exactly my problem. 

Animals and smells make him nuts and happy, but that's kind of my problem. lol He loves personal play, and that is definitely something we do more at home than outside of home, because it's not easy to run around and wrestle when you're both getting tangled up in a leash all the time. I do try to just run around with him, and have him jump up on me, and push him and run the other direction, etc.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I would probably stop training him at all in the basement for now. I'd also think a lot about you/what you're doing in the basement vs outside. Is there any difference? I don't know but I know with me I often sit inside during training so me sitting outside will often focus him better than me standing.


I've thought about this a lot and I can't really figure out what is different from me. I know outside I feel like I'm working so so hard to get anything, and inside I just stand there and do hardly anything and he's the one expending all of the energy. I think it's probably more to do with just building up a lot of really happy training sessions in the basement, while outside has been built up as a fun distracting place where he does what he wants.

And people say "just get out and train outside then!" But then I just end up frustrated when he won't connect with me at all outside and I don't know that we're making any progress.


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## CptJack

I really think sometimes dogs just have a finite amount of mental energy available to deal with stress, what they perceive as pressure, distractions, new material, difficult for them behavior, or any combination of the above.

Kylie will trick train in the living room until the cows come home, and will fetch in the house for about the same amount of time and with 200% the enthusiasm of outdoors. Outdoors I can get maybe 6 enthusiastic retrieves, if she's in the mood for it. I can't do a whole lesson in agility (and a whole lesson is thirty minutes) when it's private because she can't work that long without turning stressy and doing things like sitting at the start-line sniffing the ground when she's released. Or coming off the start line and walking away. Now, when she's on she loves it - but I have about twenty minutes of focused work (WITH play breaks, so maybe 5-10 minutes before I give her a break) or about 3 full course run throughs (2 at a trial, in a day - 3 is too much) before the setting, focus needed, and distractions flatten her and it stops being fun. I absolutely can not work agility with her, at all, more than twice a week - ever. That INCLUDES at home. 

I'm not saying you're trying to do anything as hard as agility with Watson, but Kylie is also not a hunting dog and has no distraction from her nose. She doesn't get tired sniffing. She's also THREE and female. Last year, we almost dropped out entirely because she was stressing it so hard she was shutting down. Some days I got absolutely nothing from her but a sharp turn away and run back to the house or toward the nearest body of water. Coming back to it I've had to be a lot more careful to recognize that she's not a dog who will go forever. She might give me attention forever, but she doesn't have the drive and enthusiasm to do it for long at a time, OR for a long time in a day, has helped. I've finally managed to build value in agility, much like I've managed to build toy drive (slowly, with lots of food and learning when to just stop for a few days). 

But it's been a whole lot of very, very limited work at it. She came back hot and heavy and enthusiastic and I... pushed it too hard and crashed her out AGAIN by trying to work it every single day. She's not that dog. I can't do it every single day. Not even for 5 minutes a day. It. Does. Not. Work. for her. 

And, again: Just brainstorming and thinking.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I really think sometimes dogs just have a finite amount of mental energy available to deal with stress, what they perceive as pressure, distractions, new material, difficult for them behavior, or any combination of the above.


I think this is a really good point. I do sometimes feel like his brain just cannot take in the world and hear what I'm saying. He is just so focused on "out there" and I guess that's what he was bred for. He's also fairly immature still. 

I guess I just want to feel like I'm moving in the right direction. I get so easily discouraged when I try something for a while and feel like I'm not making any progress, or like neither of us is having fun. If he's not having fun, I'm really not interested. But then how can I help him have fun? Sometimes I just have no clue.

His lack of ability to pay attention to me outside also very much limits the chance of ever having him off leash. More than sports or whatever, I would just love if he could keep some part of his brain focused on me while he's outside. I guess he's better than he was a year ago in that respect.


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## Laurelin

Hank is pretty high drive (my trainer refers to him as being high drive, I'd call him more middle because he does have a lot of self preservation and will stop when he's tired but that's off topic) and while he CAN do agility/training daily or for a long time there comes a point of little/no return. It's about 30 minutes at a private lesson and training 3-4 times a week. In hot weather he needs a good break after about 7 minutes. He will keep going but I see (sometimes small) signals I can see that he is getting tired or stressed. 

Anyways, just trying to say that even with a higher(er) drive dog I think training for long periods and/or every day is too much most the time.



> And people say "just get out and train outside then!" But then I just end up frustrated when he won't connect with me at all outside and I don't know that we're making any progress.


What do you DO when you go outside and train? I do agree that you need to train outside if you expect him to engage outside. But I also think maybe you need to tone it down a lot outside for now. Like I would not plan an outdoor session at this point working on several things or really even ANYTHING specific at all. Just short, small, fun, stress free. I'd probably sit, do some clicker stuff or just play wrestle since he likes that. I would try to avoid doing too much play/training inside for the time being. 

If he won't connect, I'd put him away for a while. I'd even crate a bit then try again later.


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## Laurelin

I wrote a long reply and it got stuck in moderation for no reason. So I guess that's bye bye.

my gist was that even Hank, who is high/higher drive compared to most dogs, needs breaks. He can't train past about 30 minutes in a private lesson or 7-10 minutes in heat without significant breaks. I mean... he COULD train longer but I start seeing signs of him being tired or stressed around then. We also reach a point of no return/damaging return if we train daily. 

Also I do agree you need to train outside but I'd scrap the training for now. Outdoors would be where all the fun in Watson's life happened. I'd just go sit and play with him MAYBE do some clicker shaping with an object. Something 100% stress free and fast and easy and fun. Since he loves wrestling with you, that's where I'd start. And yeah it sucks with a leash but if that's what he likes the most, that's what you need to do imo. If he won't wrestle or engage, I'd put him up for no fun. Maybe even crate. Try again later. I would not say 'well, he wouldn't work outside so let's go to the basement.'


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Also I do agree you need to train outside but I'd scrap the training for now. Outdoors would be where all the fun in Watson's life happened. I'd just go sit and play with him MAYBE do some clicker shaping with an object. Something 100% stress free and fast and easy and fun. Since he loves wrestling with you, that's where I'd start. And yeah it sucks with a leash but if that's what he likes the most, that's what you need to do imo. If he won't wrestle or engage, I'd put him up for no fun. Maybe even crate. Try again later. I would not say 'well, he wouldn't work outside so let's go to the basement.'


Yeah, I go back and forth on doing just that. Like things will be going horribly, so I'll back way off and just try to play or do a little shaping or let him do his favorite tricks or something. And then a few days later I try to ask for something more and I get it, so then I think we can work at that level, and then he falls back. Maybe our number of super easy low pressure sessions just need to way out number the sessions where we actually do something that looks more like training.

I guess that's probably what I did when he was a puppy to make the basement so much fun. He didn't have any behaviors and wasn't "trained" so I just spent a lot of time doing stupid stuff and play and whatever. It would have been easier if we did those things outside too, but maybe we need to go back and just start over outside instead of assuming he knows so much and should be able to do it.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I go back and forth on doing just that. Like things will be going horribly, so I'll back way off and just try to play or do a little shaping or let him do his favorite tricks or something. And then a few days later I try to ask for something more and I get it, so then I think we can work at that level, and then he falls back. Maybe our number of super easy low pressure sessions just need to way out number the sessions where we actually do something that looks more like training.
> 
> I guess that's probably what I did when he was a puppy to make the basement so much fun. He didn't have any behaviors and wasn't "trained" so I just spent a lot of time doing stupid stuff and play and whatever. It would have been easier if we did those things outside too, but maybe we need to go back and just start over outside.


Yeah I would go back to that. I'd do absolutely no training outside even if you *think* he will for a while. With Hank that's how I started his outdoor sessions. We spent the first couple weeks where we'd go outside and play chase and tug and wrestle. After a few weeks of that where he was so EXCITED about our outdoor play sessions, I'd start asking for very very small behaviors like running through a jump stand. At first I wanted all the behaviors to be very fast paced and fun so easy to incorporate into our play sessions and I still wanted the sessions to be more play than training. It took months really before trying obedience type stuff outside. If Hank trails off in an outdoor session I try to stop and switch to just playing. 

At the least I'd probably do several weeks of solely playing outside, maybe more. Whatever it took to have Watson super stoked about his play sessions every day.


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## kadylady

CptJack said:


> I really think sometimes dogs just have a finite amount of mental energy available to deal with stress, what they perceive as pressure, distractions, new material, difficult for them behavior, or any combination of the above.


I very much agree with this. With Luke I have such a small window. I have _maybe_ 5 mins (with play/rewards breaks) where he will work at 100% effort and enthusiasm and then it immediately starts to drop to 50% and lower. If I time my breaks appropriately, stopping before he starts to slow down, giving him enough recovery time, I can maybe get 3 good short (couple mins) enthusiastic sessions out of him in a day. He has such a short window of mental focus and then quite a long recovery time. I would love for him to be able to work in that 90-70% range for a longer period of time. But he can't. It's all or nothing with him. And he is so easy to crash and burn. I only train (as in planned sessions) maybe 2-3 times a week with him, and throw in a lot of random weeks off where he does nothing but walks and play. If I try to train him like the girls (and I have, recently actually) he crashes and burns hard and we both are miserable.



elrohwen said:


> I guess I just want to feel like I'm moving in the right direction. I get so easily discouraged when I try something for a while and feel like I'm not making any progress, or like neither of us is having fun. If he's not having fun, I'm really not interested. But then how can I help him have fun? Sometimes I just have no clue.


Do you have clear training plans and goals? I know for me, I have to have a clear, detailed, written plan and goals or I really just fumble through. My agility instructor has helped me put together one for working on mine and Zoey's current agility trial struggles. I started with where are we now? What is not working, what is not clear to her, what is causing her stress? Broke all that down. Then my goals. What is our end goal? What does it look like? Then the hard part. How do I get there? How do I address our struggles/weaknesses, how do I fix it, how do I make it clearer, how do I break it down? How do I build that confidence? How do I reduce the stress? Then put it in action. And its a constantly changing plan, constantly adjusting and tweaking as we go, meeting small goals along the way and building. But if I have that plan and those goals, I can keep myself focused, I know the plan and my dogs react to that. They work so much better when I have and follow a plan vs when I just wing it. Just something that has really helped me out the last few months. 



elrohwen said:


> Maybe our number of super easy low pressure sessions just need to way out number the sessions where we actually do something that looks more like training.
> 
> ....but maybe we need to go back and just start over outside instead of assuming he knows so much and should be able to do it.


Sometimes starting over is the best option, especially if it's something where you have tried a lot of different things and ending up with a lot of confusion. Wipe the slate clean and start fresh...so to speak. I had to have that mentality with Luke's heeling, otherwise I was constantly trying to move him along to fast, because he "knows this". Well...not really if I am retraining it, starting from scratch. I also find that with Luke I kind of have to remind him of the steps we did before. So say, we worked through steps 1-3 one day and he was getting 3 really good. Well the next if I start at step 3 I'm likely to get a fail out of him and him deflating pretty quickly. But if I start at 1 again and work back up to 3 then add 4 I'm much more likely to get success and therefore keep his energy and enthusiasm higher. He's got to ease into it like "oh okay yeah I remember this I can do this cool." I always start super easy with him. He needs that confidence booster. Seriously...can you sit and look at me? Yay aren't you the smartest dog ever?! The girls would be disgusted with me if I approached their training in the same way I approached Luke's. lol

I have a _somewhat_ similar struggle going on right now with Zoey and agility. She weaves amazing at our club. 12 weaves, fast, happy, hard entries, no problems. We get to a trial....yeah, sorry mom I can't do those. Nope, still can't do them. No idea what you are asking me to do here, I've never seen those pole things before. This weekend she weaved 12 poles 1 out of 4 classes. The one time she did it it took 3 tries. It's been an ongoing issue. I've been proofing the heck out of our weaves at the club. She ROCKS there. Then we get to trials and she can't do them. I could continue proofing and practicing and rewarding the heck out of her at the club...but it's not addressing the root of my problem. She can't weave *other places.* She stresses and just can't do it. So, in my 2 pages of notes about our current struggles/weaknesses (I hate calling it problems lol) I come to the theory that we have an environmental stress problem which is showing up in our weaves. I have to figure out how to reduce her stress in new environments. So we are going to start traveling. My steps look like this... starting with 6 weaves only (easier for her, easier for me to transport, we can do more repetitions on 6 vs 12) we are going to start weaving in the backyard, then the front yard, then outside at the club, then outside at our other training facility, then at my friends yard, then at the lake house, then at the park and school by my house, then at random parks we've never been during low traffic times, then at random parks at higher traffic times....and jack potting the life out of those weaves until she is comfortable and excited to be weaving no matter the environment. I have no idea how long it will take, I have no idea what extra bumps will spring up along the way (and I fully expect there to be extra bumps), but that's the plan. And we will continue breaking down and altering the plan as we go.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Do you have clear training plans and goals? I know for me, I have to have a clear, detailed, written plan and goals or I really just fumble through. My agility instructor has helped me put together one for working on mine and Zoey's current agility trial struggles. I started with where are we now? What is not working, what is not clear to her, what is causing her stress? Broke all that down. Then my goals. What is our end goal? What does it look like? Then the hard part. How do I get there? How do I address our struggles/weaknesses, how do I fix it, how do I make it clearer, how do I break it down? How do I build that confidence? How do I reduce the stress? Then put it in action. And its a constantly changing plan, constantly adjusting and tweaking as we go, meeting small goals along the way and building. But if I have that plan and those goals, I can keep myself focused, I know the plan and my dogs react to that. They work so much better when I have and follow a plan vs when I just wing it. Just something that has really helped me out the last few months.


Yes, we have a very clear plan and goal, and it seemed to be going well for a few weeks, but the last couple have been rough and I feel like we slid back a lot. I do start every session with a clear goal, but it's hard to get anywhere if his reaction is "I'm gonna stare off into the woods" or "the grass smells really interesting today". That's where I get frustrated. 




> Sometimes starting over is the best option, especially if it's something where you have tried a lot of different things and ending up with a lot of confusion. Wipe the slate clean and start fresh...so to speak. I had to have that mentality with Luke's heeling, otherwise I was constantly trying to move him along to fast, because he "knows this". Well...not really if I am retraining it, starting from scratch. I also find that with Luke I kind of have to remind him of the steps we did before. So say, we worked through steps 1-3 one day and he was getting 3 really good. Well the next if I start at step 3 I'm likely to get a fail out of him and him deflating pretty quickly. But if I start at 1 again and work back up to 3 then add 4 I'm much more likely to get success and therefore keep his energy and enthusiasm higher. He's got to ease into it like "oh okay yeah I remember this I can do this cool." I always start super easy with him. He needs that confidence booster. Seriously...can you sit and look at me? Yay aren't you the smartest dog ever?! The girls would be disgusted with me if I approached their training in the same way I approached Luke's. lol


Oh, I didn't mean retrain any actual exercises. I'm pretty confident in what he actually knows, what is foggy, and what needs a little tweaking. I mean start over with working outside as in not asking him for anything other than playing with me and paying attention to me and doing super easy things. I know I'm not asking him for things that he can't do or doesn't understand clearly, but I'm obviously asking for things that are not as much fun as looking around for deer. If he's paying attention and is engaged, he can easily and smoothly do all of the things I've been asking from him, so it's more a motivation issue than an understanding issue. All of the things you said are absolutely true for how I train new things though, and I do always start training sessions with things he knows very well and is excited to perform.



> I have a _somewhat_ similar struggle going on right now with Zoey and agility. She weaves amazing at our club. 12 weaves, fast, happy, hard entries, no problems. We get to a trial....yeah, sorry mom I can't do those. Nope, still can't do them. No idea what you are asking me to do here, I've never seen those pole things before. This weekend she weaved 12 poles 1 out of 4 classes. The one time she did it it took 3 tries. It's been an ongoing issue. I've been proofing the heck out of our weaves at the club. She ROCKS there. Then we get to trials and she can't do them. I could continue proofing and practicing and rewarding the heck out of her at the club...but it's not addressing the root of my problem. She can't weave *other places.* She stresses and just can't do it. So, in my 2 pages of notes about our current struggles/weaknesses (I hate calling it problems lol) I come to the theory that we have an environmental stress problem which is showing up in our weaves. I have to figure out how to reduce her stress in new environments. So we are going to start traveling. My steps look like this... starting with 6 weaves only (easier for her, easier for me to transport, we can do more repetitions on 6 vs 12) we are going to start weaving in the backyard, then the front yard, then outside at the club, then outside at our other training facility, then at my friends yard, then at the lake house, then at the park and school by my house, then at random parks we've never been during low traffic times, then at random parks at higher traffic times....and jack potting the life out of those weaves until she is comfortable and excited to be weaving no matter the environment. I have no idea how long it will take, I have no idea what extra bumps will spring up along the way (and I fully expect there to be extra bumps), but that's the plan. And we will continue breaking down and altering the plan as we go.


This is very similar to what is going on with us, and what my basic plan is to deal with it. It's not as specific as weaves, just more general to being excited to work. I just know that I get very frustrated when we take steps backwards and then completely second guess my plan and methods and throw up my hands and say "this isn't working! what the heck am I doing here?" I am terrible at saying "it's just not his day, put him back in the car and don't worry about it". I totally don't worry about the actual training part at this point - his sit in heel is completely crooked? Well, he was excited to set up in heel position so yay! we can fix the crooked later!


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## CptJack

One of the hardest things I've learned in dog training, as I've moved past 'well behaved pet' is how to stop when I'm ahead. When I have a break-through, I want to follow it up and prove we've got it by doing it a dozen times or building on it to the next step in my plan. When I have enthusiasm, I want to take advantage of it and use it while I've got it. When I hit a roadblock, I want to keep pushing until we get past it. 

No. Bad, human, no cookie. 

I STILL fall into that sometimes, and sometimes I can't reliably see the crash and burn coming, but I'm getting better at knowing when to just STOP anything that looks like real training, get something simple and easy, jackpot the dog (or throw a ball and a party), and *stop*. It's been a good thing, but I suspect that particular lesson is always going to be one in progress. Multiple dogs have helped.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> One of the hardest things I've learned in dog training, as I've moved past 'well behaved pet' is how to stop when I'm ahead. When I have a break-through, I want to follow it up and prove we've got it by doing it a dozen times or building on it to the next step in my plan. When I have enthusiasm, I want to take advantage of it and use it while I've got it. When I hit a roadblock, I want to keep pushing until we get past it.
> 
> No. Bad, human, no cookie.
> 
> I STILL fall into that sometimes, and sometimes I can't reliably see the crash and burn coming, but I'm getting better at knowing when to just STOP anything that looks like real training, get something simple and easy, jackpot the dog (or throw a ball and a party), and *stop*. It's been a good thing, but I suspect that particular lesson is always going to be one in progress. Multiple dogs have helped.


Agreed. This is a very hard thing to get the hang of, especially with dogs who seem to be on that fragile edge of enthusiastic or completely done.


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## Laurelin

CptJack said:


> One of the hardest things I've learned in dog training, as I've moved past 'well behaved pet' is how to stop when I'm ahead. When I have a break-through, I want to follow it up and prove we've got it by doing it a dozen times or building on it to the next step in my plan. When I have enthusiasm, I want to take advantage of it and use it while I've got it. When I hit a roadblock, I want to keep pushing until we get past it.
> 
> No. Bad, human, no cookie.
> 
> I STILL fall into that sometimes, and sometimes I can't reliably see the crash and burn coming, but I'm getting better at knowing when to just STOP anything that looks like real training, get something simple and easy, jackpot the dog (or throw a ball and a party), and *stop*. It's been a good thing, but I suspect that particular lesson is always going to be one in progress. Multiple dogs have helped.


Yeah that's the hardest thing in dog training. 

I tend to always assume drive issues in general versus criteria issues. But in my experience focus issues are very often drive issues.


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## ireth0

Have a mini-brag for Luna!

We graduated from our basic tricks class last night, and I was so proud, it was by far our best tricks class. To put it into perspective, our 2nd tricks class I got a ticket on the way driving there, and then Luna peed twice in the brand new facility before we left because it was pouring rain and she refused to go before we left and I was in a rush when we got there from being delayed getting the ticket. Tricks has not been great to us, hahaha.

Last night she had a great breakthrough with her sit pretty. Before she had been struggling with flailing, grabbing my arm/hand, not being able to hold herself up, bad lure placement from me, etc. Last night was the first time she actually held the correct position on her own for a second or two, which was so fantastic to see. 

She also had a breakthrough with flat aka play dead. In all previous classes she all but refused to roll on her side. She would lock her elbow and not budge. After some work with SDRRanger the day before at nosework, Luna did flat like nobody's business. She even stayed in her flat when I stood up, walked around, and even moved my arms/legs over her body. She is a superstar with tricks where all she has to do is lay there and be given treats.

Another proud moment was wave. We essentially got it on a hand signal that wasn't a lure in that class, which I was super excited about. Now I can just put my hand out by my side.

Something else that I loved was when we worked on spin. Spin has always been difficult for Luna, we tried it as a copy trick but she wasn't catching on so we had to drop it. The tricks instructor suggested we try spinning her away from me while I was walking, and Luna was MUCH more enthusiastic about doing that. Definitely something I'll continue to work on in the future.

The instructor also took pictures and filmed everyone doing a couple tricks at the end of the class, which may be used in an upcoming promotional video for the class. Sort of where they show what kinds of things your dog can learn, I will be sure to share if we are included!

So, yea. This is coming from someone who has previously been very "I don't like tricks, tricks are silly". SUPER proud of what we have accomplished with this class.


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## elrohwen

Good job ireth0 and Luna! That's awesome!


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Good job ireth0 and Luna! That's awesome!


Thank you! It was definitely one of those times where you fumble around for weeks thinking it just isn't going to work and then it just all comes together all of a sudden, haha.

I also forgot to mention that Luna got used as a demo dog with the instructor for the first time ever! She was used to demonstrate teaching bow, which she doesn't know and wasn't very good at, hahaha. But she paid great attention to the teacher and didn't do anything disastrous, so I call it a win.


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## elrohwen

I went home for lunch and took him outside to just play and hang out and feed him his lunch by hand. It's definitely not the first time we've done this, but this is at the easier end of the type of training we had been doing out there, and it seems to be the level that he can handle consistently. So we'll stick at this level for a while. We did some chase games, thrown food recalls (throw food, dog chases it, call back), running and jumping around, cuddles, and his two favorite tricks which are more conditioned reinforcers than tricks.

Denise Fenzi just posted the following on FB a couple minutes ago, and the timing couldn't have been better:



> For those of you in BTG who think engagement sucks and doesn't work and is a waste of time (there must be a few of you....)
> 
> I have been working with Brito very steadily on this concept for about four weeks - each training session in the my outdoor training yard starts with acclimation (pretty much as long as he wants up to 10 minutes), followed by waiting for engagement, followed by work. And today is the FIRST day that I can say I really think he understood what he was doing and making a conscious choice to drive me forwards to work. He acclimated for about 30 seconds and then turned to me with full energy - I played with him for 10 seconds or so with no rewards visible - then brought out his ball - and then we worked. Next 10 minutes - no disconnect. Not even one.
> 
> I don't think Brito is very typical. He has a one track mind and I think it takes him a very long time to realize that he is making choices between activities -he doesn't look at the world and have conflict about losing out on something else that I might have. But clearly it was registering in there somewhere, because from my point of view, today was about as good as it gets
> 
> SO....if your dog seems absolutely clueless, just be patient. let the acclimation do the work - and time. Lots and lots of time.
> 
> Along this same route - it took about a month for Brito to willingly leave his food dish on the chair and set up instantly in heel position when I asked. For the first month, he could barely function and he was a bit sullen. The same thing every day - just set up in heel position, wait two or three seconds, and I will release you and we'll get your dinner. One month. And then overnight - now four days in a row he has immediately left his food bowl and come over to set up with an excellent attitude. Even when I moved the set up to a new place. Even when I upped the wait time to more like five seconds.
> 
> Dogs like Brito are really good for teaching me to stay true to what I believe works, but they are bad for a novice trainer who needs a bit of reassurance along the way. SO....if you have a Brito - stick it out.


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## CptJack

You guys... I haven't wanted to jinx it, but I'm seeing Molly make active decisions to handle her own levels of arousal. I've been seeing it here and there for a while but it could have just been a fluke or just insecurity (like going into the foot-well of the car when she's getting overstimulated by stuff in the parking lot or cows out the window) but just now she sat down on the couch, looked out the window, got tense, barked at her reflection once then GOT UP AND WALKED AWAY to a spot she couldn't see it and laid down. Any other night, that would have gone on until I intervened.


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## trainingjunkie

CptJack said:


> You guys... I haven't wanted to jinx it, but I'm seeing Molly make active decisions to handle her own levels of arousal. I've been seeing it here and there for a while but it could have just been a fluke or just insecurity (like going into the foot-well of the car when she's getting overstimulated by stuff in the parking lot or cows out the window) but just now she sat down on the couch, looked out the window, got tense, barked at her reflection once then GOT UP AND WALKED AWAY to a spot she couldn't see it and laid down. Any other night, that would have gone on until I intervened.


That's wonderful! A thinking dog is a joy to own. I hope the trend continues. That's a HUGE breakthrough!


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## Eenypup

I can actually walk Bennie... away from our apartment now?! Not just a few blocks... but seemingly anywhere I want to take her??? Her LLW has been so much better, and her 'look at me' is pretty darn good. Not to mention she's been amazing (for her, lol) at refocusing when she sees prey animals. We've been having so much fun strolling around the city!!


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## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> That's wonderful! A thinking dog is a joy to own. I hope the trend continues. That's a HUGE breakthrough!


I actually saw a few more similar things today and it was totally, totally great. I do believe she's STARTING to get it, at least. We'll see how it translates to other situations as time goes on, but I'm incredibly proud of her.

In unrelated to Molly news, Kylie seems to have been replaced by an alien. I'm actually a little lost. My formerly 'shut down' dog who had little drive and needed cheerleading is now whirling around and barking at me if I'm too slow, if I try and reset her for weaves, or if she just doesn't get it. It's like I fell into an alternate universe and I almost don't know what to do with her now. I'm used to amping her up, and I don't exactly want to tone her down but I don't know what the heck to DO with some of this stuff, either. Guess we'll figure it out!


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Only kind of training related but we started working with Ember on a long line in our big open field. I'm really proud of her for sticking so close. She didn't want to be left or wander too far at all. Kairi was all about exploring and saying "bye!" from the day we brought her home.. so this is refreshing. 

We were rewarding her for willingly "checking in" and calling her if she got distracted by something followed by a reward for coming. I'm not really sure what else to do to work on off leash type of things.. but she already at least has the natural "fear" of being left alone.. so that helps.


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## CptJack

The only things I can actually suggest would be to play hide and seek with her - like if she gets distracted sometimes, hide behind a tree. It's a little mean, but it'll help that checking in and wanting to stay close thing she's got going on now STICK through teenager-hood. The other thing kind of goes hand and hand, and that's to use 'bye' to mean 'I'm leaving now, so catch up or get left'. I mean obviously don't leave her, but it's been pretty handy for me a few times when Molly got a little less sticky as she got older, and was more aware of other interesting things in the world. (Bye, basically, becomes a cue that means 'catch up' or 'changing directions' or 'pay attention' I guess, but isn't quite a recall)


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack said:


> The only things I can actually suggest would be to play hide and seek with her - like if she gets distracted sometimes, hide behind a tree. It's a little mean, but it'll help that checking in and wanting to stay close thing she's got going on now STICK through teenager-hood. The other thing kind of goes hand and hand, and that's to use 'bye' to mean 'I'm leaving now, so catch up or get left'. I mean obviously don't leave her, but it's been pretty handy for me a few times when Molly got a little less sticky as she got older, and was more aware of other interesting things in the world. (Bye, basically, becomes a cue that means 'catch up' or 'changing directions' or 'pay attention' I guess, but isn't quite a recall)


I have already been using "bye!" as I walk away so I guess I am on the right track. I'll definitely have to start finding places to hide though. It's not a big deal now.. but I do plan on moving to an acreage down the road and hope to have at least one dog who is good off leash to help teach my next dog.


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## CptJack

Yeah, man do I love having off leash reliable dogs to help the other ones learn - and to keep them close, since it seems like they stick closer to the other dogs than the people, even when they're sometimes a little flakey. *Cough*Thud*cough*

Bye's just my favorite EVER. I started it with Molly and now the rest have picked up on it and it's just... the most useful command I have ever used. It's not even really a command but it's so easy to be 100% consistent with it that the results have been gorgeous.


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## jade5280

We haven't had any more fights here. Things have been pretty peaceful. Ryker has become more guardy with things...people, the cat, food etc. with other dogs, more than he used to be and I think that has a lot to do with maturity. He would resource guard high value things when he was younger so I'm not entirely surprised. We're just working on teaching him appropriate reactions, rewarding him for not guarding. Still lots of management, but I don't feel like I need to freak out about it anymore. We're still going to see the behaviorist anyways.


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## chimunga

I can now call Watson into a down while he's mid-chase with the flirt pole. I'm pretty excited about this.


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## Laurelin

Hank has these random fearful moments where he totally shuts down. It is really frustrating because they are incredibly infrequent and I cannot for the life of me find a common trigger. Today I think it was this bridge we walked across. It is pretty tall (but height isn't usually a problem) and one board is loose and moves and clangs when you step on it. But w'eve walked across it many times just fine. Today though? He was shaking, would not take food, tried refusing to move. And then was super spooky by totally normal things the rest of the walk. Person sitting at a table with sunglasses? Scary. We sat by the pond and he was spooking just left and right for no reason. A leaf moved? Scary.

He has maybe done this 4-5 times in the 8 months since I got him. Every other time he is over confident. I don't quite get it.

On the way back we crossed the bridge again (had to) and I got out cookies and we raced and ran across it. He got real low and cautious about it but ran without stopping. We had a party upon reaching the other side and he was grinning and totally relaxed. So may taking things fast is what we need to do. Make it a game. I'm thinking this is very related to his fear of the teeter.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Hank has these random fearful moments where he totally shuts down. It is really frustrating because they are incredibly infrequent and I cannot for the life of me find a common trigger. Today I think it was this bridge we walked across. It is pretty tall (but height isn't usually a problem) and one board is loose and moves and clangs when you step on it. But w'eve walked across it many times just fine. Today though? He was shaking, would not take food, tried refusing to move. And then was super spooky by totally normal things the rest of the walk. Person sitting at a table with sunglasses? Scary. We sat by the pond and he was spooking just left and right for no reason. A leaf moved? Scary.
> 
> He has maybe done this 4-5 times in the 8 months since I got him. Every other time he is over confident. I don't quite get it.
> 
> On the way back we crossed the bridge again (had to) and I got out cookies and we raced and ran across it. He got real low and cautious about it but ran without stopping. We had a party upon reaching the other side and he was grinning and totally relaxed. So may taking things fast is what we need to do. Make it a game. I'm thinking this is very related to his fear of the teeter.


Could it be an age thing? Watson got spooky around 13-15 months and barked at a lot of things that previously didn't bother him. I almost couldn't walk him past a lone bike sitting out on the walking trail, though he has seen thousands of bikes in his life.


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## elrohwen

Yesterday I was supposed to meet our trainer a local park and he didn't show up :-( I don't have his cell or email, so I did email the owner of the training center. He's always been very good about being there on time, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, but it sucks to drive 45 min and not have someone show up.

So anyway, we did our own training. We were able to walk past some geese very calmly, which was awesome. And then we found the killdeer. Oh man. She clearly had a nest nearby and was doing the whole "my wing is broken!" charade that they do. Watson saw her and went mental. I have never seen him that birdy in his life. He didn't bark or scream, he just shot out at full speed. Once she flew off a few feet, he was sniffing around the area and his tail wagged faster than I even knew was possible. I've seen him have prey drive before, but this was kind of a different level. I was tempted to go back to my car and get my phone to take a video, but he was really hot and I didn't want to push it (plus the force of him hitting the end of the leash probably would've made me drop my phone).

We are practicing recall (using the ecollar) and I was actually able to call him off fairly easily, which was awesome to see, but he was so intense. I wish trainer guy had been there to see this little low energy low drive dog! Haha. Makes me wish I had any desire to hunt so I could get into field training.


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## gingerkid

Today on our walk, Snowball offered a minute long heel on my left side (we usually work it on the right b/c that's the side I prefer him to walk on). I didn't ask for it, and even when I released him, he stayed in heel, even with me turning, slowing, jogging, stopping, etc. It was great!



CptJack said:


> Yeah, man do I love having off leash reliable dogs to help the other ones learn - and to keep them close, since it seems like they stick closer to the other dogs than the people, even when they're sometimes a little flakey. *Cough*Thud*cough*


Totally this! Snowball really seems to enjoy being part of a pack, even if it is totally random dogs that he's never met before. If we encounter 2-3 dogs in a group walking just a head of or just behind us, Snowball will do everything in his power to walk with them instead of with us.



chimunga said:


> I can now call Watson into a down while he's mid-chase with the flirt pole. I'm pretty excited about this.


That's awesome! Good job!


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## jade5280

Every time I walk Gypsy I realize how awesome Ryker is on leash. He was so bad on leash for such a long time that I never thought I would get a successful loose leash. After walking Gypsy and her trying to rip my arm off every time, Ryker is like a cloud on a leash just floating along beside me.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

HUGE brag here. 

Background.. Ember is very excited to meet new people and very iffy about dogs. Kairi is reserved with strangers and extremely dog friendly. 

Ember was saying hi to someone in the agility class before us because she is very people social. Neither of my dogs have met this person. Kairi got "jealous". Kairi then jumped up (gently) on the lady (she was invited) and Kairi gave her a KISS. My reserved dog actually kissed a stranger with no hesitation. I am so proud. 

Ember was afraid of that girl's dog.. which was an absolutely beautiful and friendly Toller. Kairi was excited to meet the dog. Ember noticed Kairi being friendly and kept trying to copy and approach the dog even though she was nervous. 

I love opposite dogs!

I suppose it's not really me doing any training.. just my dogs training each other.


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## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> HUGE brag here.
> 
> Background.. Ember is very excited to meet new people and very iffy about dogs. Kairi is reserved with strangers and extremely dog friendly.
> 
> Ember was saying hi to someone in the agility class before us because she is very people social. Neither of my dogs have met this person. Kairi got "jealous". Kairi then jumped up (gently) on the lady (she was invited) and Kairi gave her a KISS. My reserved dog actually kissed a stranger with no hesitation. I am so proud.
> 
> Ember was afraid of that girl's dog.. which was an absolutely beautiful and friendly Toller. Kairi was excited to meet the dog. Ember noticed Kairi being friendly and kept trying to copy and approach the dog even though she was nervous.
> 
> I love opposite dogs!
> 
> I suppose it's not really me doing any training.. just my dogs training each other.


That's awesome! I definitely think other dogs are more helpful for a nervous or fearful dog than a person. We can offer cookies, but they can offer visual proof that something isn't as scary as it seems.


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## kadylady

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> HUGE brag here.
> 
> Background.. Ember is very excited to meet new people and very iffy about dogs. Kairi is reserved with strangers and extremely dog friendly.
> 
> Ember was saying hi to someone in the agility class before us because she is very people social. Neither of my dogs have met this person. Kairi got "jealous". Kairi then jumped up (gently) on the lady (she was invited) and Kairi gave her a KISS. My reserved dog actually kissed a stranger with no hesitation. I am so proud.
> 
> Ember was afraid of that girl's dog.. which was an absolutely beautiful and friendly Toller. Kairi was excited to meet the dog. Ember noticed Kairi being friendly and kept trying to copy and approach the dog even though she was nervous.
> 
> I love opposite dogs!
> 
> I suppose it's not really me doing any training.. just my dogs training each other.


So great!! My dogs do this a lot. If Luke or Skye are excited to say hello to someone, Zoey (who is very stranger shy) is much more likely to approach them as well, and sometimes even be excited about it.


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## CrimsonAccent

Dogs helping other dogs is always great! 

Two brags:

1. Donut has gone three days in a row without accidents. Hopefully this will continue! He hates wet grass and it's been raining on and off almost the entire time we've had him. He is also finally learning to deal with getting his feet wet too lol.

2. Cupcake glanced at the box for shaping this morning! Mostly! Lol. She kept sitting and just staring but a few times her head went down. I clicked for that and put the treat on the box. Hoping it will build interest/she'll nose the box as she sniffs for more treats. Set her up for success  I might've confused her just a bit as Donut was also around and I c/t him for getting INTO the box. Not that he was supposed to be part of the training session, but puppies. I'll try to get her alone next time (later today?).

Question:

If FI, me, and Cupcake all go with Donut on a walk, it's pretty smooth. Puppy pulling and sniffing shenanigans, normal problems. These past two day I've taken Donut by myself. We get six houses down yesterday and he just halts. Looking backwards and whining. I try to get his attention with a treat but he won't take it. (That stressed?). I finally consent to turn around once I get him to look at me. Once we turn around he's calm enough to take the treat. We literally RUN home (might as well get some energy gone from the walk and ya know, fun).

I did try going the opposite direction, but we only got to the house next to ours and he did the same thing. So I'm pretty sure he wanted to go home.

I can't tell if it's a "dogs give me confidence" thing or "where is everyone else??? OMGWENEEDTOFINDTHEM" thing or something else entirely? Weird fear period? Should I just keep taking him out and see if we can make it to seven houses today?

EDIT:

Took Cupcake and Donut both out on a walk on a Split/Y leash (not exactly sure what it's called). We managed to make it around the block this time. He did start whining and wanting to go back at the same spot, so I need to stake it out and see if there is something there causing him to freak out I guess? A car? A bike? Something weird in a yard? I didn't see anything but, dogs. The whole time past that point though he would whine, Cupcake would keep going and he would follow. Sniff break. Whine. Once we were around the corner and going back towards home he seemed to improve. But we were also trailing another dog at that point so it could be that too.

So not entirely sure what to make of this. I would've gone home if he wasn't accepting treats, but he did even when he wanted to turn around. So less stressed than yesterday?


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## elrohwen

Watson has been doing better with working outside. As soon as we walk out to the driveway he stops and turns back to me and often asks to do some work. Then I pretty much ask for engagement/play but almost no actual "work", or ask for a tiny bit of work (set up in heel position, then maybe 5-10 steps) then big party and end it.

We are still working with the ecollar, slow and steady. I'm starting to think about letting him off leash in small doses to see how it goes. Mainly just letting him drag a 20ft line on our property, if he's already low key and I know there aren't any deer. So not anything beyond what we've done in the past, except that previously I would only try that in the winter when the outside is less exciting. Then we really need to start working with it around more distractions, specifically wildlife. He is pretty good now about certain things, but others cause him to lose his mind. Unfortunately the deer haven't been cooperating and I haven't seen them in weeks, so no opportunity to practice.

I have to say that I'm pretty pleased. Ecollars aren't for everyone, and the training has been more work than most people expect, but it's working really well. He doesn't seem stressed by it, and he's working on a level lower than what I can even feel. I'm hopeful we'll be able to do some off leash hikes by the fall, and maybe let him off leash on our property (with supervision of course).


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## kadylady

Glad to hear things have been going good elrohwen!

Not-so-little baby shark face had a fun night last night. She got a little mini lesson after Zoey's class. Best part was how well she worked with me while our instructor and her dog were on the floor with us. She loves both my instructor and her dogs, especially since she stayed with them for a week while we were on vacation. She was so full of good choices last night and I so love watching her make those choices. She would occasionally get distracted and take a few playful leaps towards them and then immediately turn and run back to me like "oh yeah, i almost forgot we were still playing!!" She just continues to amaze me the older she gets.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Glad to hear things have been going good elrohwen!
> 
> Not-so-little baby shark face had a fun night last night. She got a little mini lesson after Zoey's class. Best part was how well she worked with me while our instructor and her dog were on the floor with us. She loves both my instructor and her dogs, especially since she stayed with them for a week while we were on vacation. She was so full of good choices last night and I so love watching her make those choices. She would occasionally get distracted and take a few playful leaps towards them and then immediately turn and run back to me like "oh yeah, i almost forgot we were still playing!!" She just continues to amaze me the older she gets.


Hooray for good life choices! I would be blown away if Watson could do that. It's not a small thing for a young dog!


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Hooray for good life choices! I would be blown away if Watson could do that. It's not a small thing for a young dog!


It's incredible! And I'm always so extremely proud and happy when it happens! Honestly, watching her think and make good life choices is the most rewarding thing ever and I am so glad that I was able to modify my training mentality to allow for that to happen.

ETA: I'm feeling kind of sappy today if you couldn't tell lol


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> It's incredible! And I'm always so extremely proud and happy when it happens! Honestly, watching her think and make good life choices is the most rewarding thing ever and I am so glad that I was able to modify my training mentality to allow for that to happen.
> 
> ETA: I'm feeling kind of sappy today if you couldn't tell lol


I tried to do that with Watson, and went in with good intentions, but now I'm at the point of dealing with what you do when they *don't* make good life choices. I thought if I could just control things and set things up right and nudge him towards good choices, then reward them, that he would always make good choices. But what I've ended up with is a dog who is generally good, and makes good choices a lot of the time, but who also makes bad choices because he knows he can without any consequences. It's frustrating.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I tried to do that with Watson, and went in with good intentions, but now I'm at the point of dealing with what you do when they *don't* make good life choices. I thought if I could just control things and set things up right and nudge him towards good choices, then reward them, that he would always make good choices. But what I've ended up with is a dog who is generally good, and makes good choices a lot of the time, but who also makes bad choices because he knows he can without any consequences. It's frustrating.


Honestly, the 'choose well' thing still comes down to a dog who cares about what you want/pleasing you/cares about what you have more than whatever you're asking them to select against. Ie: What makes the choice a good one for the dog is it being rewarding for them. That's still how you reinforce it. It works fantastically with Kylie and Molly, even with her current... questionable impulse control, but Thud? No. Why? Because my approval doesn't mean crap to him, and nothing I have will make choosing the 'good' choice (according to me) more rewarding to him than the one he wants. I can throw a party for him that one time he decides not to lunge after the rabbit or go bark at the deer or whatever and rain steak and praise on him, but it won't really influence his future behavior. 

Because he doesn't care that much about the praise, cookies, steak, or whatever. 

Really awkward with him because he pretty clearly adores me, but for whatever reason with him that doesn't come with him caring what I have to say about anything. I mean he's not out of control (now) and he does know a decent number of things but uh. He ain't EVER going to deny his basic nature for my benefit. Like if it fits with his desire anyway, fine, otherwise "pft, silly human." 

He's been a trip, let me tell you.


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## jade5280

CptJack said:


> Honestly, the 'choose well' thing still comes down to a dog who cares about what you want/pleasing you/cares about what you have more than whatever you're asking them to select against. Ie: What makes the choice a good one for the dog is it being rewarding for them. That's still how you reinforce it. It works fantastically with Kylie and Molly, even with her current... questionable impulse control, but Thud? No. Why? Because my approval doesn't mean crap to him, and nothing I have will make choosing the 'good' choice (according to me) more rewarding to him than the one he wants. I can throw a party for him that one time he decides not to lunge after the rabbit or go bark at the deer or whatever and rain steak and praise on him, but it won't really influence his future behavior.
> 
> Because he doesn't care that much about the praise, cookies, steak, or whatever.
> 
> Really awkward with him because he pretty clearly adores me, but for whatever reason with him that doesn't come with him caring what I have to say about anything. I mean he's not out of control (now) and he does know a decent number of things but uh. He ain't EVER going to deny his basic nature for my benefit. Like if it fits with his desire anyway, fine, otherwise "pft, silly human."
> 
> He's been a trip, let me tell you.


That's how coonhounds are. It's just who they are. Anything else would go against their nature. I can teach recall 24/7 and still not get a half decent recall reliability from them. I'm not going to waste my time trying to change them. I picked them for a reason and that's because I love all the other traits that they bring to the table. I don't think handler focus and caring what you want is something you can really teach a dog.


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## chimunga

Watson was overexcited and I asked for a sit pretty before I gave him a bully stick. He did this really cool sit pretty where he was stepping backwards while he did it. It was adorable, and now I have to figure our how to capture it.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Really awkward with him because he pretty clearly adores me, but for whatever reason with him that doesn't come with him caring what I have to say about anything. I mean he's not out of control (now) and he does know a decent number of things but uh. He ain't EVER going to deny his basic nature for my benefit. Like if it fits with his desire anyway, fine, otherwise "pft, silly human."


Yes, Watson is similar. A lot of the time he really does want to do what I want, and be a good boy and make the right choices if his brain is capable of calming the heck down and thinking through the choice. But sometimes he just does not care and wants to do what he wants to do, and that's where corrections have started to enter into our training. In a way I feel like I'm late to the game and if I had been a better trainer I could have corrected these things quickly and easily when he was younger. But on the other hand, I'm not a great trainer and if I'm going to use corrections I want a dog who already has a strong relationship with me and a strong reinforcement history for the behaviors I'm working with. I've also discovered that for the most part, he is a soft enough dog that once he realizes "yes, you do really have to do what I'm telling you to do" he does it. 

For things like agility or competitive obedience, I still want a dog who chooses to work with me and is happy to do it, and we continue to work on him making the right choices and just blocking him from self-rewarding. But for the recall, I'm at the point where yes he really does have to do it, it's not a choice, and if I have to use a little compulsion to get there then I will.


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## CptJack

I am pretty fortunate with Thud, in that while his recall and off leash skills aren't as good as *I* want, and aren't up to my standards of being really comfortable with it, I don't think he's ever blown a recall or not come back, his natural orbit is just way bigger than I am comfortable with/like. He'll never not chase, but he'll STOP chasing and come back when he's called which is huge. If I didn't have that, not going to lie, I'd be using the e-collar too. Recall is a big danged deal. 

For him it's just mostly that my success in convincing him that working with me is limited. He wants to play with me and be near me but things like 'obedience' and 'tricks' are just very "Eh, whatever". It's very similar to his response to a ball where I throw a ball and the first two times bringing it back is AWESOME, the next three are 'eh, okay I guess' and after that he's leaving the ball and either walking off to lie down and stare at me or trying to bite/knock me over to try and get me to play HIS games. Basically, he'll indulge me for a while but then is very, very, over it. I can spread that out, if I let him physically maul me some, but there's a definite limit and he'll definitely put the brakes on full stop for anything he's not interested in doing. 

At 2.5 though, I will give him the credit he's due: he's the most temperamentally and mentally stable dog I have. He's also gotten almost easy to live with. Like he spent all day yesterday napping in front of the couch while I knit and slept and that's kind of huge.


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## d_ray

jade5280 said:


> Every time I walk Gypsy I realize how awesome Ryker is on leash. He was so bad on leash for such a long time that I never thought I would get a successful loose leash. After walking Gypsy and her trying to rip my arm off every time, Ryker is like a cloud on a leash just floating along beside me.


I feel Ya. Jewel is a dream on leash. A two year old could walk her. Jazz, my arms hurt after walking her.


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## elrohwen

I cannot call Watson off of chasing, though he will come back when he's done (which was 20min one time and nearly gave me a heart attack). Part of it is that his brain is so far gone that I thing he really doesn't hear me sometimes, and part is that once he realizes there's nothing I can do about it, he's going to do what he wants to do. Like I can call him off of wildlife when he's on a long line, but he knows he's on a long line and he knows he doesn't have a choice. I'm hoping the ecollar is like a long line with a remote control.

So far it's made a big difference. He's still on a long line, but there are times he would have been sniffing and blown me off, and he doesn't blow me off now. It's rare that I actually use the stim at all, and when I do it's below the level I can even feel it. But his response rate is so so much better. I still need to proof it with more wildlife before I'm comfortable letting him off leash. It's an especially bad time of year because our property is wooded to the extent that you can't even see him if he runs into the trees/bushes which isn't good for training. We may try off leash officially while hiking, since he's more likely to stay with us in a strange place, and our friends' dog has a perfect recall which helps.


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## chimunga

elrohwen said:


> I cannot call Watson off of chasing, though he will come back when he's done (which was 20min one time and nearly gave me a heart attack). Part of it is that his brain is so far gone that I thing he really doesn't hear me sometimes, and part is that once he realizes there's nothing I can do about it, he's going to do what he wants to do. Like I can call him off of wildlife when he's on a long line, but he knows he's on a long line and he knows he doesn't have a choice. I'm hoping the ecollar is like a long line with a remote control.
> 
> So far it's made a big difference. He's still on a long line, but there are times he would have been sniffing and blown me off, and he doesn't blow me off now. It's rare that I actually use the stim at all, and when I do it's below the level I can even feel it. But his response rate is so so much better. I still need to proof it with more wildlife before I'm comfortable letting him off leash. It's an especially bad time of year because our property is wooded to the extent that you can't even see him if he runs into the trees/bushes which isn't good for training. We may try off leash officially while hiking, since he's more likely to stay with us in a strange place, and our friends' dog has a perfect recall which helps.


You've probably tried this, but I worked with my Watson with a flirt pole, and I'm a little bit more confident now with his prey drive. I've been able to call him into a down while he was about to chase a small animal twice.


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## elrohwen

chimunga said:


> You've probably tried this, but I worked with my Watson with a flirt pole, and I'm a little bit more confident now with his prey drive. I've been able to call him into a down while he was about to chase a small animal twice.


Flirt pole doesn't do anything - that's a toy and he knows it's a toy. He will have impulse control for days with a flirt pole, but it's not the same.

Honestly, his drive isn't even necessarily prey drive. His drive is to hunt things. The times I can think of where he totally blew me off and ran away where both on deer trails where he never even saw a deer, and who knows how long ago the deer came through. So it's not about the chase part for him really, it's about following scents and tracking them down.

When it comes to just running after prey, especially things that easily get away (birds, squirrels) I'm more confident about being able to call him off. Deer are a whole different thing though, because they run forever, and he will gladly follow their trail even after they've disappeared.


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## chimunga

That's really interesting. I hope there isn't a day when my dog can differentiate. Well, I'm sure he can tell the difference between a real rabbit and a scrap of fabric, but he sure acts the same way with both. I think it helps that my Watson never uses his nose for anything. 

I just got a healthy heaping of guilt. I unintentionally put Watson's toy box in his reach. And one of his toys that we normally just use for training was in the box. He picks it up starts gnawing on it (it's one of those gummy squeaky toys that he can chew up in five seconds flat), so I grab a treat to trade him for it. He just lights up, and starts nose targeting and pawing the toy. Which is something we worked on very briefly maybe two of three short sessions TWO WEEKS AGO. I have not trained with my poor dog in almost two weeks, because I have been so busy. I forget how smart and eager he is sometimes. Tomorrow morning I'm making a schedule for walks and training sessions.


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## Pia

chimunga said:


> Which is something we worked on very briefly maybe two of three short sessions TWO WEEKS AGO.


Pretty amazing, isn't it? 

Great thread, I'm learning a lot from your experiences. 

Currently we've been playing lots on proofing bringing and "Drop it", going from toys to other items, i.e. shoes, cell phone, Tina's collar etc. 
I don't do training sessions because they would then become a work in my mind, so we just play and train out of the blue several times a day and it's been going pretty well. Besides, she has short attention span and I don't want to push it beyond her comfort level, so we do like max 10 times in a row.

I am a kinda stuck though in the after dropping the item moment, can't figure how to guide Tina and to teach her it is mine once she has dropped it. 
As for now, she will drop nicely, I praise, randomly give a treat as well, then next second she jumps up trying to get it back, and she is fast and successful with that most of the times, then we stay there like ready to tug, wrong.

Can not say "Leave it" all the time, because that means "lose your interest" for her, and it is important we don't mess with "Leave it" (the cats, litter box, sniffing garbage during walks and things like that), so when we play with toys and want to continue, "Leave it" is not useful. 

Can't use "Wait" all the time, because that is equal "pause" for her, like waiting in front of her dinner or waiting before we cross a street, so that means she may continue when released with "OK Go", while I would like her to learn it is not given she will get it back, especially when she brings me my stuff.
She is good with a hand signal, but I am thinking of possible future situations, like my hands busy and not being able to give her a hand signal.

How do you Guys go about it when your dog has retrieved... what do you say or do next?
Should I switch between "Leave it" and "Wait", depending on the situation, or go with a brand new command for after retrieving?


We have also played a lot today with "Hey Tina!" = "Plunk your butt on the ground and give your lab" and it has gone really good when I am close by, we haven't tried from a distance yet.
I have chosen "Hey Tina!" as an alternative response to going stir crazy excited when neighbors greet her or when we have people coming over to us and greeting her usually with these words. Wonder if we can get there... well, it is allowed to hope for miracles


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## elrohwen

chimunga said:


> That's really interesting. I hope there isn't a day when my dog can differentiate. Well, I'm sure he can tell the difference between a real rabbit and a scrap of fabric, but he sure acts the same way with both. I think it helps that my Watson never uses his nose for anything.


Yeah, the sniffing is hard to beat. I can almost always see wildlife before he does (especially if they aren't moving), but I can't predict when a really good scent trail will show up. He will also scent an animal and start flipping out when I know he can't see it (though I often can). He just uses his nose about 100x more than his eyes and the visual part of the prey drive almost doesn't matter, and the flirt pole is really just mimicking the visual part.


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## chimunga

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, the sniffing is hard to beat. I can almost always see wildlife before he does (especially if they aren't moving), but I can't predict when a really good scent trail will show up. He will also scent an animal and start flipping out when I know he can't see it (though I often can). He just uses his nose about 100x more than his eyes and the visual part of the prey drive almost doesn't matter, and the flirt pole is really just mimicking the visual part.


I don't think my Watson knows he has a nose. The other day I dropped a piece of white cheese on our white tile floors in the kitchen. Watson saw me drop it, knew it was on the floor somewhere, and he was frantically looking for it, but I actually had to point it out to him.


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## elrohwen

chimunga said:


> I don't think my Watson knows he has a nose. The other day I dropped a piece of white cheese on our white tile floors in the kitchen. Watson saw me drop it, knew it was on the floor somewhere, and he was frantically looking for it, but I actually had to point it out to him.


And in contrast, this was my dog last night. We have a mouse living in our garage and Watson was darn sure that it was hiding up under my car. There are traps around with peanut butter on them (out of his reach of course) and it only took him a day to completely ignore the peanut butter and resume the hunt for the mouse. I don't think he has ever even seen the mouse.


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## CptJack

A-) Advertisements aren't really things that are allowed outside our sponsor area. This is a friendly heads up. I'd hate to see you wind up in trouble.

B-) Thank you, but no. On a number of levels. So many infact that I would be here all day if I enumerated the ways that your training philosophy is both completely opposite mine, based on debunked and outdated 'science' AND completely wrong for that particular dog. As well as a number of ways your assumptions about this particular dog is entirely incorrect.

C-) I'm not having any particular problems with him any more, anyway, actually. He's actually the LEAST reactive and/or anxious dog I've ever seen.


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## gingerkid

I feel like pretty much everyone on this board who uses R+ and has a basic concept of dog body language/behavior uses "Amigen Bonding".... I mean, the website doesn't even explain what it is?


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## CptJack

gingerkid said:


> I feel like pretty much everyone on this board who uses R+ and has a basic concept of dog body language/behavior uses "Amigen Bonding".... I mean, the website doesn't even explain what it is?


I got so hung up on leadership crap that I scrolled over that, and assumed it was some weirdo thing involving, I don't know what. 

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty safe to say 99% of the people here use that. I mean, assuming it has an actual definition.


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## gingerkid

Well, plus, I really feel like of all the people on this thread, you're not one who needs help with basic obedience training.


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## elrohwen

Watson called off a deer last night! Woohoo!

Ok, so it was in the woods and he only kind of saw it, and he hadn't gotten all excited about it yet, and he was on the long line and knew it ... but still! I did have to stim with the collar a couple times, because he would start back towards me and then reorient towards the deer, but it totally worked and I'm reasonably confident that it would've worked if he had been off leash. Without the collar I would've had to use the long line and drag him back, so it really made the difference. I didn't need to turn it up from his usual working level either, which was great.


----------



## lauren17

I've been having the hardest time with Roo in agility classes. He is so difficult to get to focus and stay with me. He thinks its way more fun to run away from me than to work with me. I've just started back with herding and I'm so happy with him. He is great with that, and works so well with me. Was especially proud of his downs, for being a young dog that excited about stock and be able to down is big for him! I'm thinking about backing off agility for awhile and focus on herding. Maybe when he grows up a little more we can get more into agility again.


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## elrohwen

lauren17 said:


> I've been having the hardest time with Roo in agility classes. He is so difficult to get to focus and stay with me. He thinks its way more fun to run away from me than to work with me. I've just started back with herding and I'm so happy with him. He is great with that, and works so well with me. Was especially proud of his downs, for being a young dog that excited about stock and be able to down is big for him! I'm thinking about backing off agility for awhile and focus on herding. Maybe when he grows up a little more we can get more into agility again.


That was Watson's problem too. He was way more interested in running around and sniffing things than working with me. We've taken a break for a year (a forced break because of work stuff for me) and now we're working with a trainer just on the off leash portion before we try agility again. In the mean time I've done some Fenzi classes on basic handling that I can work on at home with a couple jumps, so at least we're learning something.


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## elrohwen

Watson got to be "off leash" yesterday on our property. He did drag a 50ft line just in case (which was excessive, the 20ft would have been more than enough), but he was perfect. He even hung around when we got out a ladder to grab some stuff out of the gutter, and then came down to the end of the driveway to get the trash cans. Go Watson!

I don't know if this is realistic, but my hope is to have him off leash on vacation the first week in July. Not sure if off leash by the cabin will be safe, because I don't know if there will be other people nearby, or cars, or whatever, but I hope he can at least go for some off leash hikes.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Watson got to be "off leash" yesterday on our property. He did drag a 50ft line just in case (which was excessive, the 20ft would have been more than enough), but he was perfect. He even hung around when we got out a ladder to grab some stuff out of the gutter, and then came down to the end of the driveway to get the trash cans. Go Watson!
> 
> I don't know if this is realistic, but my hope is to have him off leash on vacation the first week in July. Not sure if off leash by the cabin will be safe, because I don't know if there will be other people nearby, or cars, or whatever, but I hope he can at least go for some off leash hikes.


That's great progress!!


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## kadylady

Skye caught her first disc yesterday! It was super low so not really any jumping but so far we've only been doing rollers. She seemed pretty proud of herself. Then pretty pissed at me when I couldn't manage to throw a decent one for her again after that. lol I need throwing lessons.

We're headed out to the lake this weekend and I'm really excited for her to have her first full weekend out there with the lake not frozen! Excited to see what she thinks about swimming. She loves our little kiddie pool at home. I'm predicting she will be following Luke and Zoey right in and picking up on it pretty fast.


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## elrohwen

Apparently the neighbors at the cabin just let their dogs run amok all the time. I really hope they go up the week before us and then leave, because that will be so much chaos. And I will feel bad if all the dogs are playing over at the neighbor's house and Watson has to stay on a tie out. But my friends said the road is like 1/4 mile away and not busy, so at least he should be safe as long as he doesn't completely run off like an idiot.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Skye caught her first disc yesterday! It was super low so not really any jumping but so far we've only been doing rollers. She seemed pretty proud of herself. Then pretty pissed at me when I couldn't manage to throw a decent one for her again after that. lol I need throwing lessons.


I have no desire to ever do disc, mostly because I can't throw a frisbee to save my life. There are enough other things I can do with my dog without having to embarrass myself with a frisbee. lol

Once I was throwing it around with my friend and her dad in their yard, and hit their dog who was like way on the other side of the yard nowhere near us. Hit the dog win a prize?


----------



## CptJack

Molly's reason for living is disc, I swear to god. Like, she lights up and has fun with a lot of things but the way she lights up when presented with a frisbee is just a whole new level of joy. That said, I'm kind of crap at throwing, too, though I've gotten better with practice. Using the weird fabric and tubing ones rather than the rigid or rubber ones helped me a lot. Mostly by being REALLY good at flying and 'floating', no matter what I did with it.


----------



## elrohwen

I would try to get better if my dog loved it, just to do in the yard, but I wouldn't do it as a sport, or actively train a dog to be into a disc. Throwing stuff is so not my thing. Lol


----------



## CptJack

Man, I don't see me ever competitively doing it, either. Because throwing stuff isn't my thing, and because well. I find some of the competitive disc dogging stuff pretty scary to be honest.


----------



## Alla

I've always really wanted to do frisbee with a dog.  I think its so rewarding when you do a great throw and then the dog does a great jump and catch.  Mind you, not that I've ever had the opportunity to do that.. I should train Porsche to retrieve at least something. 

In other news, we did our first out of sight stand-stay.


----------



## Laurelin

Whoot 6 poles closed on both sides! 

Please excuse my excessive use of the word 'awesome'


----------



## ireth0

Can anyone offer some heeling tips? Luna pretty naturally heels in correct position when I ask for attention and make eye contact and walk with her. I've not formally trained it, but she seems to just do it automatically. 

However, the issue we're having is that she doesn't stop immediately when I stop. She will take another step or two forward after I stop. 

I could keep her nose on a treat to keep her in position, but then I wouldn't be getting the eye contact. I have also heard of making sure you slow a couple steps before you stop so they can anticipate, but right now we're only practicing a few steps at a time, so there's not really room to slow before stopping. 

Any suggestions?


----------



## elrohwen

My question would be, how formal of a heel do you want? If you want a precise competition heel, I would break it down back to the very beginning with pivots, taking one steps at a time, and having the dog find heel position no matter where you move. But I would not use that on a walk - it takes a long time to build that kind of heeling up to even a couple minutes and it takes work to maintain. If you do break it back down, I think you probably want to start with a lure again so she knows exactly where she needs to be and practice just one step at a time. You will get the eye contact back, but she needs to first understand where heel position is and that it's her job to be in it at all times, whether you stop or turn or whatever. I would want her to be able to find position and stay in it if you just take one step forward with your left leg, or one step back, or one step to the right.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> My question would be, how formal of a heel do you want? If you want a precise competition heel, I would break it down back to the very beginning with pivots, taking one steps at a time, and having the dog find heel position no matter where you move. But I would not use that on a walk - it takes a long time to build that kind of heeling up to even a couple minutes and it takes work to maintain. If you do break it back down, I think you probably want to start with a lure again so she knows exactly where she needs to be and practice just one step at a time. You will get the eye contact back, but she needs to first understand where heel position is and that it's her job to be in it at all times, whether you stop or turn or whatever. I would want her to be able to find position and stay in it if you just take one step forward with your left leg, or one step back, or one step to the right.


I want a fairly formal heel since we're planning on getting into Rally. We are in advanced obedience now and heeling is something we're covering in the class, I was just curious if anyone had tips for keeping her from moving ahead when I stop. 

I have tried a 'just for fun let's see how this goes' heeling past distractions on walks and she doesn't have issues focusing. In those cases I use a lure vs just my hand though.

That's what we're doing in class right now, just a couple steps at a time, and Luna and I are working on pivoting because she 'gets' heeling pretty well. Moving forward, anyway. We'll get to the more advanced stuff, hahaha.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I want a fairly formal heel since we're planning on getting into Rally. We are in advanced obedience now and heeling is something we're covering in the class, I was just curious if anyone had tips for keeping her from moving ahead when I stop.
> 
> I have tried a 'just for fun let's see how this goes' heeling past distractions on walks and she doesn't have issues focusing. In those cases I use a lure vs just my hand though.
> 
> That's what we're doing in class right now, just a couple steps at a time, and Luna and I are working on pivoting because she 'gets' heeling pretty well. Moving forward, anyway. We'll get to the more advanced stuff, hahaha.


I would say that if she doesn't realize you're stopping, she's either not paying attention (which it sounds like she is if she's giving you eye contact) or doesn't understand exactly where heel position is because she's leaving heel position to keep walking past you. I would work on taking one step in any direction and having her stay glued to your leg. I think the easy part is the dog understanding to walk next to you and make eye contact, but it's not easy to teach a dog exactly what heel position is no matter what you are doing. Took me months and it's something I still maintain all the time.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I would say that if she doesn't realize you're stopping, she's either not paying attention (which it sounds like she is if she's giving you eye contact) or doesn't understand exactly where heel position is because she's leaving heel position to keep walking past you. I would work on taking one step in any direction and having her stay glued to your leg. I think the easy part is the dog understanding to walk next to you and make eye contact, but it's not easy to teach a dog exactly what heel position is no matter what you are doing. Took me months and it's something I still maintain all the time.


Oooh that's a good idea. Thank you!


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Oooh that's a good idea. Thank you!


If you say "heel" as a cue when she's across the room, does she know what you mean? I would work on that too. Right now to her it means "walk next to me" but it doesn't mean "stay stuck to this very specific position on my leg"


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> If you say "heel" as a cue when she's across the room, does she know what you mean? I would work on that too. Right now to her it means "walk next to me" but it doesn't mean "stay stuck to this very specific position on my leg"


Oh yea no, we don't use a word for it yet. I'm guess she is responding to my hand placement to know when to heel vs when not to.


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## elrohwen

I feel like heeling as it's taught in most obedience/rally classes skips a lot of the foundations. Watson had an ok heel, he would trot next to me and look up, but he really didn't understand what I wanted or have any precision until we broke it completely down to the most basic things and built it back up over months. Totally depends what you want though and how much work you want to put into. You can do rally without a heads up precise heel and people do every day. Heeling is the one thing I've put more time into by far than any other behavior or activity, and there are still lots of little things I'd like to fix and he needs way more duration. It's not easy, that's for sure! I think some classes make it seem too easy or basic but the people who do it really really well put so much work into it.


----------



## ireth0

Yea, right now I guess we're just working on getting her to do the behaviour. I'm not sure how the class is going to address the finer points of it. Actually that's not quite true, I got an outline but I haven't looked at it yet, lol.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea, right now I guess we're just working on getting her to do the behaviour. I'm not sure how the class is going to address the finer points of it. Actually that's not quite true, I got an outline but I haven't looked at it yet, lol.


IME, they probably won't address the finer points of it, unless it's a class just about heeling. They will probably work on getting you fluent with the signs and the skills needed for all of those.

Pretty much all of my heeling was taught through the Fenzi classes, because nobody in my area really teaches it in that detailed of a manner.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> IME, they probably won't address the finer points of it, unless it's a class just about heeling. They will probably work on getting you fluent with the signs and the skills needed for all of those.
> 
> Pretty much all of my heeling was taught through the Fenzi classes, because nobody in my area really teaches it in that detailed of a manner.


Oh no sorry, I meant it was part of our advanced obedience. We're starting Rally after this class finishes, because I figured some of the skills in advanced would be helpful to get a handle on for Rally.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Oh no sorry, I meant it was part of our advanced obedience. We're starting Rally after this class finishes, because I figured some of the skills in advanced would be helpful to get a handle on for Rally.


Ahh. Probably depends on the instructor and how into competition obedience they are. We kind of worked on this stuff, but not really to a very high level of precision. I find that the people who have trained dogs to UDX or OTCH level are very nitpicky about everything. The trainers who do a lot of rally and get a CD are not and let you get away with a lot because the precision isn't that important to them.


----------



## kadylady

I've been working really hard on Skye's LLW skills lately...LLW is my teaching weakness (just watch Zoey's walking skills), but we've been making some progress. Last night the neighborhood was really busy and we saw some scary things. Couple police cars went zooming by, dog ran out of a house (in its fenced yard thankfully) lunging and barking at us threw the fence, lots of kids and bikes...but the scariest thing....a cat. Lying on a porch. Seriously, it took us at least 5 mins to walk calmly past this cat that was just sitting there watching us. She was barking and growling at it, all her hair was standing us and she was hiding behind me trying to run the other way. The other stuff...didn't bother her at bit, even the dog charging the fence. But that cat....it was so scary!! **We live with a cat!!** Silly puppy.


----------



## CptJack

Molly hasn't wigged entirely out at anything weird in... at least a week. LOL. She is SUPREMELY confident 99% of the time, she's even over her weird dog issues (so far, I expect to see some back when she restarts classes after the break) but random wig out over something that I'd consider nothing? Yup. Last week it was a woman on a mobility scooter. We've had mail-box with the flag up, plastic grocery bags (IN THE HOUSE, and the SAME BAGS WE ALWAYS USE), the mirror in our bedroom that's been here forever, the washing machine switching over to spin, and just similar, seemingly normal things she's almost always seen/heard before. And the freak-out rarely repeat over the same thing twice.

Weird, weird dog. Awesome dog, but weird dog.


----------



## Kyllobernese

Kris went through about three days at the arena which she has been training in for almost two years, of being scared of one corner. Finally figured out she must have heard something outside but that is not that unusual. She would not willingly go into the corner and would have had her tail between her back legs if she had a tail.

I just sort of ignored it, did not force her to go there and treated her when we got closer. She is suddenly fine again as if nothing was different about that corner. The Agility equipment is in that corner of the arena and she would not even go through the tunnel but goes running through fine now as if it never happened.


----------



## Alla

Guysssss check out this down stay in a brand new location, two feet away from a meowing cat she's never met before!!


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## Laurelin

If it would just stop raining for longer than a few hours...

We've been relegated to indoor 'agility'. I used agility very loosely. 

Right now we are using the ottoman as a table, having him wrap left and right around the vacuum, practicing 2o/2o on the stair, and jumping/sending out over boxes down the hallway. He thinks it's a BLAST but I'm ready to get back to real training and classes. Good lord it's been a month and a half.

They said another 6" this weekend maybe. 

Other good news: Only 2 screams at running dogs at the trial this weekend. He also tugged really well in a very crazy environment.


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## ireth0

I know this is no big deal to most people... but Luna was doing down on a verbal only cue today! From both a sit and stand!

For me, this is a big deal, because down is one of the commands I've neglected because -I- don't use it much day to day, I found it somewhat frustrating to train, and just generally boring. It was one of those cues that we just sort of fumbled through luring when we needed to use it, and didn't bother with much otherwise. However, we will need it for rally. Also, in our advanced obedience class I'm pretty sure we were the only people that didn't already have it on a verbal. :redface:

But she did it! And that makes me super happy and proud!


----------



## GrinningDog

Debating taking Gypsy to an Obedience 101 class just cause I suck at teaching loose leash walking. Thing is, we literally ONLY need LLW help. Also, I'm super embarrassed to admit my (otherwise well-trained ) 5 yo dog still pretty much sucks at walking nicely on leash. 

My ego is getting in the way of signing up. I need to get over it. Uuuugh.


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## elrohwen

GoGoGypsy said:


> Debating taking Gypsy to an Obedience 101 class just cause I suck at teaching loose leash walking. Thing is, we literally ONLY need LLW help. Also, I'm super embarrassed to admit my (otherwise well-trained ) 5 yo dog still pretty much sucks at walking nicely on leash.
> 
> My ego is getting in the way of signing up. I need to get over it. Uuuugh.


Are there any llw only classes? I would do a private lesson for that first honestly. A basic class will spend way more time on simple things you guys can do just fine. I kind of doubt you'll learn enough about llw to fix your issues at least if the classes are anything like the ones I've done. They just cover too much other stuff


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## dagwall

Yeah I'd look for a LLW specific class, lots in this area. If not then I'd look for private lessons so you can just focus on what you need help with.


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## Remaru

Laurelin said:


> If it would just stop raining for longer than a few hours...
> 
> We've been relegated to indoor 'agility'. I used agility very loosely.
> 
> Right now we are using the ottoman as a table, having him wrap left and right around the vacuum, practicing 2o/2o on the stair, and jumping/sending out over boxes down the hallway. He thinks it's a BLAST but I'm ready to get back to real training and classes. Good lord it's been a month and a half.
> 
> They said another 6" this weekend maybe.
> 
> Other good news: Only 2 screams at running dogs at the trial this weekend. He also tugged really well in a very crazy environment.


I am there with you. I need to get Lad outside and training. I know we aren't really at our limit of things we can do inside but he needs exposed to things outside. I want to work on proofing his basics outside before doing more things inside. This is prime puppy socialization time and we are stuck inside, I don't even want to take him places because it is storming constantly. Getting stuck out in a storm with a giant puppy is not so much fun, loading a soaking wet do into the car doesn't appeal. We are supposed to get storms all weekend again and the ground is so saturated that it is just mud and puddles everywhere, no where for it to go. I think I will just go ahead and sign up for the class I wanted to take now that fair season is over. We can at least get something done. 



GoGoGypsy said:


> Debating taking Gypsy to an Obedience 101 class just cause I suck at teaching loose leash walking. Thing is, we literally ONLY need LLW help. Also, I'm super embarrassed to admit my (otherwise well-trained ) 5 yo dog still pretty much sucks at walking nicely on leash.
> 
> My ego is getting in the way of signing up. I need to get over it. Uuuugh.


I will echo looking for a LLW specific class or just doing a couple of private lessons. Any time I've taken a dog to a 101 class we have spent maybe half of a lesson on LLW. I doubt you would get what you are really looking for.


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## Flaming

Remaru said:


> I am there with you. I need to get Lad outside and training. I know we aren't really at our limit of things we can do inside but he needs exposed to things outside. I want to work on proofing his basics outside before doing more things inside. This is prime puppy socialization time and we are stuck inside, I don't even want to take him places because it is storming constantly. Getting stuck out in a storm with a giant puppy is not so much fun, loading a soaking wet do into the car doesn't appeal. We are supposed to get storms all weekend again and the ground is so saturated that it is just mud and puddles everywhere, no where for it to go. I think I will just go ahead and sign up for the class I wanted to take now that fair season is over. We can at least get something done.
> 
> 
> 
> I will echo looking for a LLW specific class or just doing a couple of private lessons. Any time I've taken a dog to a 101 class we have spent maybe half of a lesson on LLW. I doubt you would get what you are really looking for.


I need a LLW walking class for Manna.

I screwed up somewhere and now she will only LLW in her webmaster harness, her joring harness and her weight pull harness, try making sense of that? (I have pulling on command so I think that may have something to do with it.) Flat collars are a pull fest, which is bad because sometimes I don't want to take forever to put on a harness to go to the vets or for potty.


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## Remaru

Flaming said:


> I need a LLW walking class for Manna.
> 
> I screwed up somewhere and now she will only LLW in her webmaster harness, her joring harness and her weight pull harness, try making sense of that? (I have pulling on command so I think that may have something to do with it.) Flat collars are a pull fest, which is bad because sometimes I don't want to take forever to put on a harness to go to the vets or for potty.


I have a basketball court at the playground right across the street from my house, that is where I train my dogs. I walk them in circles, zig zags, ect until they walk nicely next to me. I haven't been able to practice as much with Lad because of the rain though. I always start in the house with no leash but of course adding the leash and going outside leads to crazy pulling and running everywhere. I have been able to work with him in the parking lot at House of Quad (roller derby). He's getting pretty good there anyway.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

I feel all your pain on LLW. Nothing I have tried has worked long term. Kairi walks best in her ruffweaf harness with treats available and will still pull occasionally. I will walk her with treats forever at this point. No relaxing walks for me! 

On an unrelated note.. I've been teaching Kairi to hug a stuffed animal while sitting pretty. She has made awesome progress in just one night. She really loves doing random tricks. Like.. absolutely LOVES learning weird tricks. I think I'm going to start earning some trick dog titles closer to the fall. We just don't have the time now between agility and such this summer.


----------



## CptJack

So, summer plans now that I have finally hit it: 

Kylie's 'mostly' off for the summer. We'll work a bit on weaves, do some distance handling exercises here and there and definitely work on building and rewarding speed, but otherwise it's going to be silly tricks and chill. 

Molly, meanwhile, is about to hit agility proper. I'm sure we're also going to have some backsliding when it comes to the reactivity after having several weeks off classes, so we'll see where that goes and how it goes. My goal for her, loosely, is to start coming to trials in September (we're not hosting with that one), and competing maybe next spring. MIGHT do a tunnelers run or two with her in Jan. since that's the first trial she'll be old enough for, but it really depends on where we're at. 

Other than those things, this is going to be a few months of disc, swimming, going to the lake, going on vacation and lots and lots of PLAY for my crew, with some reinforcement worked in. I'm excited about it!


----------



## Laurelin

Hank's training is going really really well. It's wonderful watching everything start to slide into place. Little bits and pieces here and there are just fitting together for us both and it's spectacular. It's so tempting to rush him because he's so easy but I'm glad we're not. My trainer is really pushing me on my end of things to tighten up and be very conscientious about my handling. Agility with Hank is very different. It's fun getting to focus on the more minor and precise things. I really got him to tighten up his turns on some of his box work this weekend. Just a totally different focus to his training than with Summer. It's fun and different... keeping it interesting. 

My trainer also decided to test him out on a sequence she thought was above our level possibly that included a tunnel to weaves where the weaves were a discrimination. There was a jump set right in front of the tunnel and I needed to call him in to weave. He nailed it first try! And his weaves are getting fast. He occasionally misses the entrance on the right hand but it's getting more and more accurate. 

He also nailed his backsides and Jaako turns. 

I don't want to put a lot of pressure on him but I'm getting darn excited! Im not sure when trials will happen. I want him solid before competing. Possibly next winter.

As far as what we're doing right now:

- He starts up his Fenzi class today so hopefully in the next 6 weeks we can tackle the teeter issues. This will be the main goal for the net month and a half (hey I paid for a working spot!)

- Continue nosework classes. NW is kind of the back burner

- Start taking his weaves places. Start adding in the next 6 poles. Also keep proofing entrances. Start working his weaves with me doing various motion and crosses.

- Continue agility classes. Sounds like we will be moving to a more advanced class after next week.

- Box work seminar maybe?

We have not really touched contacts much beyond the end behavior. Been working handling and weaves mostly lately.

He's starting to nail his table too.


----------



## elrohwen

Today was Hazel's first "real" training session. So far we've just been playing and working on following a lure. She knows "yes" from potty training, but this was the first time I used the clicker. Clearly I'm rusty with using an actual clicker because I was so late a couple times. Oops! She's so cute though. 

Watson is in the background practicing being quiet in the crate. Not very well. Haha. We did some more practice later with the crate door open while I worked with Hazel and I think it will be so good for his impulse control. He knows he's supposed to wait quietly in there, but he's emotional and impulsive and has a hard time with stuff like that.

I made this video for the Fenzi class we're in, but wanted to share it here too.


----------



## Shep

I didn't realize you'd gotten your puppy yet! She is precious! Nice to see she's undocked.


----------



## elrohwen

Shep said:


> I didn't realize you'd gotten your puppy yet! She is precious! Nice to see she's undocked.


Just got her on Saturday! She's a lot of fun, but I forgot how annoying potty training is. Haha. Oh, and screaming in the crate. 

I love her tail! This is the first time in 40 years that the breeder has left tails.


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## kadylady

Ahhhh she's so cute elrohwen!!!! I never specifically taught a tuck sit or a fold back down to Luke or Zoey but I did with Skye because of that class and she sits and downs so much nicer and prettier than the other to.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Ahhhh she's so cute elrohwen!!!! I never specifically taught a tuck sit or a fold back down to Luke or Zoey but I did with Skye because of that class and she sits and downs so much nicer and prettier than the other to.


Watson is fairly good about both when he's up and in obedience mode. He can still be sloppy when he's just being low key and I ask him to sit or down and he doesn't really care. I think it's just luck and his conformation that he does it as much as he does. I definitely want to be more consistent this time in the training phase. 

The hardest part is keeping her off of my lap. Lol. I had to keep luring little spins just to get her away from me.


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## pawsaddict

Hazel is adorable!! So smart too.


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## kadylady

The girls and I went had a private agility lesson last night outside at a school yard. We were in an empty, open field area at the back of the baseball diamonds. There were 2 or 3 games going on, so a good amount of distraction to work with. Skye got to do quite a bit of work and playing and she did really fantastic. She got to do some tunnel and stanchion work, did lots of impulse control stuff with her toys, did lots of recall practice. Did some chuckit and disc play. She was so in tune and excited to work and play. A couple times she would run off with the toy and make a big loop around our work area, kind of testing how far she could go I think. She learned that not coming when called regardless of the neat smelling hole she found meant losing her turn in the car and that was no fun. She only had to lose 1 turn, after that she made a lot of good choices. Was really proud of her last night. She worked so good for both me and my instructor, she had so much fun, and she really was almost oblivious to the distractions (other than the good smelling hole lol). Oh and did I mention this was ALL off leash and unfenced?!?! *Proudmama*


----------



## Remaru

So I'm going to sign up for my first class with Lad. I feel really anxious about it (because I just have anxiety in general and social anxiety and I hate making decisions and....this could go on a while), I need to decide what to sign up for. 

We can take 

Puppy Manners
Beyond Basic
CGC Prep

I don't know what to sign up for. He would have to pass a basic assessment to take anything other than Puppy Manners/Pet Manners but that shouldn't be an issue. On the one hand he is still a puppy and I don't want to put too much pressure on him, this is not a race. I am sure there are things he can get from a basic class and most of what I am looking for is proofing his skills with other dogs and people around (he really loves other dogs and has a hard time holding still and focusing with them, he can do it but it is harder). Then again I don't want to be bored covering commands we already know and spending all of our time on socialization. I won't lie, money does get tight here, particularly when half of the dogs have been to the vet recently (and Lad has to go again because we are still sorting out tummy issues). I need to consider how many classes I can afford both money and time wise (I am actually shorter on time than funds). I don't want to take a 6 week class and feel like we didn't get any value out of it.


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## elrohwen

It really depends on the course and what they covered. How old is he now?

If I did basic puppy training at home and my pup was 5 months or older, I would just do the beyond basic. I know that our beyond basic class is barely past puppy stuff. Like, lots of the dogs still have to be lured into every sit and down for example. It's the exact same concepts, but a bit more into the proofing and putting them on cue. The puppy class is mostly "can you lure your puppy into a sit?" and then puppy play time.


----------



## Remaru

elrohwen said:


> It really depends on the course and what they covered. How old is he now?
> 
> If I did basic puppy training at home and my pup was 5 months or older, I would just do the beyond basic. I know that our beyond basic class is barely past puppy stuff. Like, lots of the dogs still have to be lured into every sit and down for example. It's the exact same concepts, but a bit more into the proofing and putting them on cue. The puppy class is mostly "can you lure your puppy into a sit?" and then puppy play time.


He is 6months now and I've been doing basic training with him since 9weeks. Definitely doesn't need lured for basic commands anymore. I have never been to this facility before, it is more geared towards sports but I've gotten a good feel from everyone I've met there. They do the CGC and CGCA testing and competition obedience so I can get the training I want for him there. I think I will call them, do the assessment and see where they want to place him.


----------



## elrohwen

Remaru said:


> He is 6months now and I've been doing basic training with him since 9weeks. Definitely doesn't need lured for basic commands anymore. I have never been to this facility before, it is more geared towards sports but I've gotten a good feel from everyone I've met there. They do the CGC and CGCA testing and competition obedience so I can get the training I want for him there. I think I will call them, do the assessment and see where they want to place him.


Yeah, I wouldn't do a puppy class then. He will be too big to play with most of the puppies anyway. We had a 5-6 month old in Watson's puppy class, but she was a little dog so it wasn't too bad. She was still way more fast and coordinated than the other puppies, and if she had been a larger breed she would have knocked them all over. At 6 months I would take a basic obedience class rather than puppy, but in your case it sounds like beyond basics or CGC might be better since he's beyond needing to be lured for everything. You will still get plenty of opportunity to proof every thing.

ETA: Hazel's puppy class isn't even open to dogs over 18 weeks old. Not sure if it was the same cutoff when Watson took it.


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## Remaru

The cutoff is 8months which seems really old to me. They do have a "Pet Manners" class for older dogs, I think he may qualify for that as well being over 6months but I would have to look. They have a bunch of 101 classes but the basic manners classes are required first unless you have your dog assessed (or you are doing private lessons). They have some really interesting classes, I'm excited to try it out, even if I am anxious (things like circus dog which just sounds fun). Lad is doing very well, but I want to get another set of eyes on him maybe get some tips on things we could improve and get a chance to proof him around more distractions and other dogs.


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## elrohwen

Remaru said:


> The cutoff is 8months which seems really old to me. They do have a "Pet Manners" class for older dogs, I think he may qualify for that as well being over 6months but I would have to look. They have a bunch of 101 classes but the basic manners classes are required first unless you have your dog assessed (or you are doing private lessons). They have some really interesting classes, I'm excited to try it out, even if I am anxious (things like circus dog which just sounds fun). Lad is doing very well, but I want to get another set of eyes on him maybe get some tips on things we could improve and get a chance to proof him around more distractions and other dogs.


Personally, I guess I would do the assessment intending to be in the better than basic class, and see what they say. I can only go off of the basic classes at the place I train, but a 6 month old puppy with basic sit/down/leave it training would be totally appropriate in the better than basics class (possibly even way over trained for that class). Possibly the CGC class depending on how well trained, but def better than basic.

Let us know how it goes! I love taking classes with my dogs. Now that we're home I need to find something to sign Watson up for. We were doing privates for a while to work on off leash stuff, but I'd like to do something on leash that is just fun and easy for him, like rally or the generic performance dog class that lumps tricks/proofing/obedience/agility into one. It's a nice fun class for dogs with some more advanced training but who aren't focused on a particular sport. Unfortunately it's on Wednesday nights and we go to trivia at a bar that night :-(


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## CrimsonAccent

Just out of curiosity Remaru, which place are you going? I might know it. And if not, I wouldn't mind adding another place to go in the future.


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## Remaru

http://www.dfwdogquest.com/ It is newer I guess because it is quite close to me and I had never seen it, then it was there. I can be oblivious though. I met the flyball team at "Paws at the Park" and talked to one of the trainers. Everyone seems really great.


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## CptJack

...Anyone have a grand idea about how to stop Molly from jumping up and biting at my arms when I run? This is going to be an issue in agility. It was a LITTLE bit of an issue off and on from about four months, but mostly not. Last week or so though, it's constant. I run, she leaps and makes grabs from me. And it hurts. And it's going to be an issue. And I actually *don't* know how to handle this, since if I stop moving she just seems... satisfied with having stopped me. Ie: It seems like stopping me is the GOAL.


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## trainingjunkie

What would happen if you consistently happily scooped her up when she did that and put her in her crate for 2 or 3 minutes. No fuss! Like, you act like that is her cue to YOU asking to be crated? And you always obey!

No need to get mad in the least! Just be very, very predictable.


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## CptJack

I think if I picked her up I'd get bitten in the face to be honest with you (not because she's being aggressive but because she is definitely hyped up by the running), but I can certainly take a crate out in the yard, lead her to it when she pulls that and give it a try!

...and take the crate to agility classes, actually, since if I know Molly it's going to be a bigger issue there, at least for a bit.


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## trainingjunkie

If she's that high, what would happen if you walked immediately off the course and went and sat in a chair? (No point in getting bitten!)

The important question to answer is the Why. Is she biting because she wants you to go faster? Is she confused? Is she just playing and partying on a moving target? If you understand what she wants, you can do the opposite.

Gator used to bite me because I was a terrible handler and my cues were too late for him. He was frustration biting because he didn't know where to go next. SO, I worked on handling and the biting went away. However, in the gap between my handling getting better and the end of the biting, we had some pretty serious misunderstandings! I feel your pain! 

I tried very hard to realize that the biting was important information for me, but I will admit to a couple of very stark episodes of me going all "Caveman." Once, when he grabbed a breast and another unfortunate time at a trial where he attached to my bicep...  I have that one on tape. And in his defense, I was critically and horribly late and was being a miserable partner!


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## CptJack

If I just walk off and sit down, she's perfectly happy. She'll follow me over, seek attention, wiggle and happy and just generally seem pleased as punch. I honestly think she's made up her own game, where the objective is 'catch the human and stop them'. Or she's just now getting crazy high from me running and loses her mind and all control of herself but chills when I stop. One or the other.

I THINK to some degree this will smooth out some when we're doing more AGILITY. Right now it's not agility specific. When we're working with a tunnel or jump and I'm sending her somewhere or running and sending her it's less of an issue though she'll still leap up some if we're too close together for too long, or my timing is off. Mostly it's okay, because she's focused on the obstacle. This is primarily an issue when there is no obstacle/we're working flat. Or even just not working, but I ran to answer the door or went jogging off in a field to pick something up.

ETA: Apparently the trainer thinks the crate's a good thing to try so I'm going to give that a try either way.


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## trainingjunkie

That's really interesting. I think if she loves the game and can find a line and see where to go next, this will likely self-correct. Might be worth trying to get a few videos and see if you can dissect exactly what's going on though. It often so much clearer on film. 

Here is my bad bite at trial. You can see he's too high, you can see my cue is too late, you can see the grab. In real life, I thought he hung off my arm for an hour. But it was all over before my brain kicked in. I was lucky I only got whistled off and not written up... 
http://youtu.be/1zU2l14CNh4


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## CptJack

Yeowch!

Honestly, I'm pretty sure every issue I've ever had with Molly could probably be summed up by saying 'she's just too high, I froze and was too slow and by the time I had thoughts instead of ?!?!?!? her brain had fallen out her ear and she exploded.' Control Unleashed has been a GODSEND with this dog. 

I'll see what I can do about video though getting it watchable won't be able to happen for a bit thanks to technology breakdown. Am also going to try stuffing my hands in my pockets and running and see what happens. Because well, why not, and maybe I taught her to rely on that hand delivering cues a little too much.


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## kadylady

CptJack said:


> ...Anyone have a grand idea about how to stop Molly from jumping up and biting at my arms when I run? This is going to be an issue in agility. It was a LITTLE bit of an issue off and on from about four months, but mostly not. Last week or so though, it's constant. I run, she leaps and makes grabs from me. And it hurts. And it's going to be an issue. And I actually *don't* know how to handle this, since if I stop moving she just seems... satisfied with having stopped me. Ie: It seems like stopping me is the GOAL.


Skye was doing this to me for a little while, grabbing at and biting my arms and legs when running and I think for her it was an impulse control/being too mentally high issue. What worked for her was to stop and ask for a down. Wait a few seconds then continue. If I had to do it multiple times I would take her by the collar or harness and lead her back to her crate for a "time out". A few times of that and it subsided significantly. Now if it happens (it hasn't in awhile) all it takes is one down and she stops right away. She doesn't like losing a turn. Losing a turn is a big deal to her. It worked the other night when she wasn't recalling. She only had to lose one turn and she was recalling beautifully after that!


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## CptJack

Yeah. I paused just now to actually go sort of experiment a little and see what's there more precisely. There is just a speed I move at where she loses it a little. Below that speed is okay, above it even walking/doing heeling she starts bouncing up toward me and above THAT even a touch she starts with the grabbing. I asked for a down and got it, though, so I think mostly she's just getting really excited and her impulse control goes away. 

And in fairness to her she probably needs more exercise and attention in general. She's been out of classes for 3 weeks, Kylie's had trials and a ton of training so while she's getting some play and training and exercise she's a been a bit shafted. At least, that's probably the answer to why this is happening now.


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## elrohwen

Watson did that for a while but he grew out of it. He still likes to bite, but he doesn't lose his head and bite me when I run. I know there are absolutely dogs who do it as adults, but I think it can also just be an adolescent thing that they grow out of.


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## CptJack

I have NO doubt that to some degree, at least, it's just plain old being a teenager. I have a really hard time remembering she's 12 months old sometimes, but honestly dog's a puppy. A smart puppy, a good puppy, but you know. A puppy. Who has just barely turned a year old. 

I mean I'm going to work on it because it freaking HURTS, but I'm not overly stressed about it becoming a life long thing you know?


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I have NO doubt that to some degree, at least, it's just plain old being a teenager. I have a really hard time remembering she's 12 months old sometimes, but honestly dog's a puppy. A smart puppy, a good puppy, but you know. A puppy. Who has just barely turned a year old.
> 
> I mean I'm going to work on it because it freaking HURTS, but I'm not overly stressed about it becoming a life long thing you know?


Yeah, I wouldn't be at her age. I agree with stopping whatever you're doing the moment she bites, whether she understands why you're stopping or not, just so you don't get bit. At least she stops! Watson thought stopping was so he could bite me harder without having to try so much. ROFL But otherwise I would just let it run its course and see if she stops in a couple months.


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## Laurelin

CptJack said:


> ...Anyone have a grand idea about how to stop Molly from jumping up and biting at my arms when I run? This is going to be an issue in agility. It was a LITTLE bit of an issue off and on from about four months, but mostly not. Last week or so though, it's constant. I run, she leaps and makes grabs from me. And it hurts. And it's going to be an issue. And I actually *don't* know how to handle this, since if I stop moving she just seems... satisfied with having stopped me. Ie: It seems like stopping me is the GOAL.


A lot of BCs have this issue. Imo you have to correct it/make it stop. I've seen people DQ'd for it if their dog gets them too hard and yanks them down. My trainer stops the game and has hers lie down and even ends the game/leaves the ring.

With Hank it has stopped with more clarity of what the game is and with better handling from me. I don't have him lie down but we do cool it till he can get his head. I do find it is confusion and poor handling (not any specific person just in general) that causes the most issues. They get to going so fast, don't know where to take the energy and come back in to you. Hank goes for arms too but some go for clothes or legs. One of my friends got nailed hard in the thigh during a run by her BC. 

I've seen it get worse on some dogs with age, not better. I've also seen dogs be fine in training but bite a lot more in the excitement of trials. I really think the trainer has to be very firm about biting = no game. And the trainer has to work hard about being very CLEAR with cues. A lot of times biting happens when the handler is just too slow and the dog is already 3 steps ahead and frustrated for lack of direction. Not that it's easy- it's easier said than done. 

Though really he hasn't nipped at me in agility in a long time? Just thinking on it now. It was mostly when he was really new and I was fumbling very badly trying to get out cues fast enough. Also the further along he got the more obstacle focused he is vs likely to come in towards me.


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## CptJack

Yeah, my suspicion that she'll do better when we're using obstacles more often is largely based on the fact that when there is an obstacle she's pretty focused on it and willing to get far enough away from me/go that way instead of turning in to bite me. I AM going to have to speed up my timing with her a lot to keep her from circling back into me (and biting at this stage, lol). For now its mostly become an issue with the flat handling or just outside training with speed, but obviously it can't just go, regardless. I'm not WORRIED about it/not being able to make it stop per-se, but I definitely don't intend to just let it go. 

I had a nice email exchange with the instructor about it last night (and it absolutely gets you eliminated in a trial setting, and if it's bad enough it'll get you kicked out of NADAC). The plan for now is to try the automatic crate in class and at home, down when I can't use the crate for some reason, and if it doesn't work then she has some other ideas to get a grip on it (as opposed to Molly getting a grip on me!) If that doesn't work, she's dealt with the issue in a few of her dogs and has some other ideas.


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## Laurelin

If Hank circles, I circle with him. Keep movement/momentum going and try set him on a nice path. Now that we are starting to really go with the agility thing I am having to be a lot more precise. My trainer is thankfully really pushing me to be aware. It's a learning curve though.

Yes I have seen judges tell people that if the dog nails them again they will be asked to leave the trial. 

Do you throw the reward? Just curious. I basically stopped having Hank come in towards me to grab a tug because what would happen would be he was auto-programmed to come in and grab something once he thought we were done. I basically now use thrown toys and if he comes in for a reward it's a treat. I'm talking on sequences and stuff.

Trey heel nipped (obviously not in agility) but I got good at reading him and calming him down (lie down) before a nip came in. It was mostly if I was running and I changed direction that would set him off.


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## CptJack

I throw the reward when I want her going out away from me, but we're nowhere NEAR doing things like sequences, yet. She's seen a tunnel and a single jump - jump channel once. Oh and she's done a little bit with 2 weave poles (and yeah, I throw for that). We're just not that far along in the agility game, and a lot of what we're still doing with crosses and obedience and off leash handling where she really does need to circle back to me or stay close because that's the objective of the exercise. 

Part of the issue may well be that she's bored because she's been doing this same stuff for LITERALLY 6 months since we were doing so much more reactivity work first go through and we did the class twice. I'm sure I'm going to have to speed up my timing and be more precise with her, but right now it's just not a factor. As we can send her out more, I can do more away from me work but that's not where we are with agility right now. 

And also, honestly, she does this if I'm running through the house to answer the door or jog off across an open field to pick up a piece of trash or because I forgot a leash. Plus she actually gets HAPPY if I just stop? Like if I just stop and walk off or sit down she is just a wiggly, happy, over the moon, pleased as punch puppy. She REALLY seems to just want ME to stop running. So just stopping the 'game' doesn't work, and being faster with cues doesn't really apply because... no cues. She's not even apparently PAYING ATTENTION to me until I run and then she's latched onto my arm.


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## Laurelin

Yeah I think that's where learning how to stop her before she starts comes in. Trey would bite my feet then just grin when I'd stop and look down at him. But I could almost always catch signs he was amping up so I could stop 'the game' before he got to the point of biting.


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## CptJack

Oh, it's preventable. I'm not entirely sure how yet, since I haven't played with it much (...I'm still having lazy week. I haven't even left the PROPERTY since Sunday) but I'm sure I can catch her before she gets to me and latches on. That may well be me crossing my arms and pivoting away or something that simple, but I'm pretty sure I can prevent it when she's running and and I'm stationary-ish and build from there? In retrospect though, I could probably just ask for a stay out there, break the momentum and then recall her, I just don't want that to be part of the picture or something she auto-does.

I'm going to try the crate, see what else the trainer's thinking but I'm not going to lie: I am not above a really offended "HEY!" type verbal correction if I can get a situation where I KNOW the timing is right.


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## GrinningDog

Gypsy doesn't bite _me_ during agility, but if she's not engaged, she has a thing for biting the hoop jump and occasionally other obstacles. Redirected energy. We'd been handling it by interrupting her fixation and doing a down-stay. If she followed through with the biting, she got instant crate time-out. My dog does not like time-outs. It was working pretty well before we took an agility hiatus.

Re LLW: Didn't know there were LLW-specific classes. I'll have to look for one of those. We have many dog training classes in the area, so I could probably find a LLW one here. Cool! Thanks, guys!


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## Laurelin

We've been having fun here.


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## elrohwen

Today Hazel and I worked on offered focus (making eye contact instead of staring at the cookie) and perch/pivot. I feel like she is just starting to think things through and realize what this training thing is about and it's pretty cool to watch.


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## trainingjunkie

She is a little doll!!!


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> She is a little doll!!!


Thanks! She's so darn cute that I forgave her for peeing in the house three times while I was home for lunch :facepalm: I thought her bladder control was getting a little better, but she must have had a ton of water before I got home.


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## CptJack

So, Molly was back in classes as of tonight. I expected her to have back slid, but it didn't really happen. She had some issues with one dog who was reacting at HER, but they were minor and mangable. The only real time we had a problem was leaving class when we walked into a knot of dogs and people in the parking lot that was just too much for her to handle gracefully, but still. Really good, over all. 

Guess now I can work on actually teaching her some of this agility stuff and focus on the challenges there. Which is a topic for a whole different thread.


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## trainingjunkie

That's great! Congratulations! Will look forward to the thread!


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## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> That's great! Congratulations! Will look forward to the thread!


It's in the agility class thread. Nothing too major, just baby dog things, mostly, I think. Lots and lots of 'creativity' happening.

And I sort of lied, because I will be here anyway. If what I saw tonight holds true, we're now going to have to work, instead of dog reactivity and being fearful with people to 'please don't climb people and try to french kiss them and/or steal their cheese'. I don't know, she's been all over lately. I kind of thing when she stabilizes as an adult she'll be great, but right now she's just... weird and appears to have no idea what to do with herself.'


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## trainingjunkie

CptJack-- Those are much better problems to have!!! You are going to have so much fun!


Awhile ago, I posted about entering an ORT. Nothing like mailing money to heat up your training! It's just starting to get fun! Can't wait to see where we go with this! Here's our work from tonight: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jit4m2qHXsY

Overall, I am pretty happy with how things are going.


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## CptJack

Yeah. I feel pretty okay with basically dealing with a normal, excitable puppy. Not sure if I get any credit for her getting there or if it was just a stage that would have gone away but I'm glad.


You guys look GREAT! And make me want to do nosework! It looks like fun is being had.


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## trainingjunkie

We are having fun! It's a little bittersweet. His body is just trashed so I can't do agility safely anymore. I also can't drill enough to continue in obedience for a UDX. I still play rally with him, but he is so over-trained in that. There's nothing left to teach there. Nosework has given us a new goal that doesn't break him in half. And it IS fun now that we are starting to piece it together. My coach told me that we are now clear to start working on vehicles! That should be interesting!


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## Laurelin

We are starting vehicles with Hank this week too! Nosework is a great outlet for dogs. I think it's a great thing to play with. Easy, low stress/workload on the handler. My dogs love it.


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## Kyllobernese

I wish we had somewhere we could do nosework training in our area. I think Kris is a little bored with all the Obedience we have been doing for the past year and a half. I have backed off a lot in the last few weeks, still go but do some Agility which she loves, then just sit around and watch the others. It is not a formal class, just a bunch that get together and practice at least twice a week, sometimes three times. Now that the weather is getting better we will start training outside at different places. We have three schools we can go to now that the kids are out and a couple of ball diamonds we go to.


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## elrohwen

I think between yesterday and this morning, Hazel really figured out what this training thing is all about, and she is SO EXCITED! lol We started shaping "go to mat" this morning which went very quickly. After a couple reps of going to her mat, she started play bowing and growl/barking and just being completely silly. I wish I had it on video. It's so much fun to start this foundation stuff all over again and see those lightbulb moments.

In Watson news, he started a 4 week proofing class last night and had a good time. First we did set up at heel and maintain eye contact while the trainer walked around. Big fail! He did not understand why the trainer hadn't come to say hi to him yet when he hadn't seen her in 6 months! LOL He didn't move, but his eyes were darting back and forth. Then we did recalls through a bunch of toys and he did stop to sniff the first time but then was fine. He's not even that into toys, he's just into checking out all of the things. Then we proofed stays and he got to be demo dog. She put him in a sit stay and did gentle leash pulls, to see if he would hold his stay. His face looked so sad, but I think that's his "thinking face" and he was trying very hard. He was such a good boy and seemed really excited to be back in class.


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## CptJack

My plan of attack with Molly this summer is to make her perform more out and about. I've done a lot of reinforcing recall and asking for a sit or to climb or perch on something at various parks and fields and rivers and lakes and woods and the like, but I haven't asked for much more than that from her. It's time to up the ante and make the environment more than a playground for her.

Also am realizing that when introducing something new to her, I can get pretty reasonable behavior and thoughtful work for a tiny little bit - usually the first rep or two. Then she decides she knows what I want and she just throws herself at it like a mac truck, her precision evaporates, she gets steadily sloppier until she's no longer actually giving me what I'm asking for. So you know, NRMs were introduced this morning, along with some of me being seemingly disgusted and walking away. That seems to be helping and her 'paw target downhill' no longer looks quite so much like hit the target with your front feet, pivot your butt out 90 degrees and dance'. We'll see if it continues to help. 

...Welcome to some pressure in training, I guess?


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> ...Welcome to some pressure in training, I guess?


That is hard. I've learned that pressure is where Watson falls apart. I think it's a combination of his personality, and the fact that I tried to avoid pressure for so long so he could be successful, and now when it happens he just gives up.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> That is hard. I've learned that pressure is where Watson falls apart. I think it's a combination of his personality, and the fact that I tried to avoid pressure for so long so he could be successful, and now when it happens he just gives up.


Kylie can't handle pressure without collapsing like wet cardboard. Thud can't handle pressure without flipping me the metaphorical bird. I mean he can handle CORRECTIONS but he can not handle *pressure*, if that makes any sense. I ask for more than he wants to give me/feels like giving me, he's out (not sad, not deflated, just out and to heck with me). Kylie turns into a heartbroken sad-sack who just wants reassured that I love her and to never do that thing again. 

Molly APPEARS to have a pretty good cushion re: pressure, probably thanks to drive, general confidence and biddability (ie: she wants to make me happy and she REALLY wants the treat/toy and is excited by it, but has never second guessed herself in her life), but I definitely wish I'd introduced a little more a little earlier. I was just so busy dealing with her reactivity and weird fear periods that I *didn't*. So she's kind of confused but thinking about what she's doing more. Oddly, I'd still call her a really soft dog so I guess we'll see how and where this goes and how she does with it with time. 

So, basically I had 3 years training with low to no pressure, and this is WEIRD as HECK for me.


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## elrohwen

Watson doesn't throw appeasement signals, he just acts like Thud and walks away. In agility that means he zooms, on leash it means he sits down and stares into the distance. I think in his case he does want to work with me, but if he's confused or he thinks it's just too much, he gives up quickly. I'm really only introducing pressure now and it's hard. It's such a roller coaster of days where he just doesn't want to do anything, but then he kind of works through it and is really good again. But those down days make me so scared to put any more pressure on him ever again because it's so much easier for both of us to just not pressure him, if that makes sense.

According to the IPO trainer I worked with, high drive is what helps create the cushion to keep a dog resilient to pressure. A high drive dog with a hard temperament will have a very big cushion. A high drive soft dog a little less so. And a low drive soft dog will have the smallest cushion of all. Makes sense to me.

ETA: For Hazel, I've basically decided to start pressure after 16 weeks. I want to use this baby period to socialize and meet people and be a puppy, but after that I will put more pressure on her to interact with me in new environments and not just frolic about and do whatever she wants (which is what I did with Watson). Not that it won't be fun, but it will be more about having fun with me and under my rules, vs just having fun with the environment in a way that doesn't include me. Still trying to figure out exactly how to accomplish that and I think it will be a lot more work up front but I hope it pays off and reduces the work we have to do later. Basically focus on engagement in all places up front instead of in a couple years.

I didn't require Watson to pay attention to me, I just asked and if he said no I let him do what he wanted, and he said no a lot. So now when I put pressure on him that he has to tune in to me, he sits on top of my feet and shuts down. I think it's part temper tantrum that he can't do what he wants, and part confusion that things have changed and he has no idea what I want so he's just not going to do anything.


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## CptJack

That makes sense to me, too, and really fits what I see in my own dogs.

I mean, Thud has drive and he's hard as a brick wall. He could probably take a lot of pressure in many ways, and most traditional ways. He can handle being wrong and just not care. The issue with him is getting him to work with me at all for more than five minutes as a time and his drive isn't for anything I have control of. I mean, yeah, he works for food but that's not high on his list of things he wants. So he gets it wrong/doesn't even get the food or it becomes less fun and he's just 'to heck with you, I don't like this game that much anyway'. Honestly, I should probably just buy a bite sleeve and let him work for biting me. That might actually work, now that I've mentioned it in quasi-joking, but anyway.

Kylie is lowish drive and incredibly soft. She doesn't DO wrong. Once she's pretty happy and confident and enthusiastic to do a thing I can do some clean up of it and apply a little bit of pressure to get her there, but it's really limited. And once I've broken a thing with too much pressure too soon it's really, really hard to get back (...weaves, darn it.) so I tend to avoid pressure like the plague with her as much as I possibly can. That's in our way now and working to overcome that and find our balance with it is REALLY hard. 

Molly's proving pretty good with it and honestly if I'd had any experience or sense I would have started demanding more from her six months ago - or even sooner. Like you said, though, it was just easier not to? Even when she had no major problems with what there was (and I guess there was some in proofing stay but that was about it) for a lot of things it was easier to just let it go. 

The major difference between her and the other two is that she... experiments. A lot. If I get something with Kylie and Thud, it stays unless I poison it. Molly will get something and then play with it a lot. So even if I get what I want, she will then start seeing just how far she can go with it. Like you can SEE wheels in her head turning. You said stay. Does that mean I have to stay sitting or stay in one place or both? What if I stand up? What if I stay lying down but crawl somewhere? You said lay down. Does it count if it's on my side? Or my back? You asked for an out. Can I drop it but put a paw on it to hold it down? What if I drop it and then lunge to grab it again immediately?

Then she gets high and it becomes the most cursory half-a&&ed thing in the world. You told me to target, my paws touched the target while I was jumping off it, WHATEVER GIVE ME THE TOY!!!!!!

Tl;dr: 

Yeah. Cushion to pressure is important, it makes sense to me that drive is heavily connected, and I'd REALLY like to have Kylie. Because for all my griping about Molly there, I suspect Molly's going to clean up everything faster than I can convince Kylie to weave again without stressing out and falling apart.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> ETA: For Hazel, I've basically decided to start pressure after 16 weeks. I want to use this baby period to socialize and meet people and be a puppy, but after that I will put more pressure on her to interact with me in new environments and not just frolic about and do whatever she wants (which is what I did with Watson). Not that it won't be fun, but it will be more about having fun with me and under my rules, vs just having fun with the environment in a way that doesn't include me. Still trying to figure out exactly how to accomplish that and I think it will be a lot more work up front but I hope it pays off and reduces the work we have to do later. Basically focus on engagement in all places up front instead of in a couple years.
> 
> I didn't require Watson to pay attention to me, I just asked and if he said no I let him do what he wanted, and he said no a lot. So now when I put pressure on him that he has to tune in to me, he sits on top of my feet and shuts down. I think it's part temper tantrum that he can't do what he wants, and part confusion that things have changed and he has no idea what I want so he's just not going to do anything.


Yeah, this makes sense and honestly it's basically my plan with Molly, now. Until now, she's basically been living Waton's life. "The world is a playground, play." She naturally has a ton of handler focus, but she's a border collie so that's not a surprise. Otherwise she just - time to start working with me instead of just being with me. I want to keep the fun and enthusiasm, but we are so, so, overdue for upping the ante on performance. 

And she is so, so overdue for having to engage her brain, LOL.

(It makes sense to me, too, that Watson just doesn't quite get it so defaults to doing nothing. That's more Kylie than Thud, but it's recognizable to me in my own dogs. Sounds like he's making good progress, though!)


----------



## taquitos

Laurelin said:


> We've been having fun here.


This gave me a ton of ideas on how to work on Meeko's fear of wobbly objects. Thanks Laurelin! hehe 

We've only done two agility classes so far but I already see an improvement in Meeko's fear of jumping on/off foreign objects. Paired with the Fenzi class I'm taking I'm pretty sure he's going to be way more confident about approaching things he has never done before.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Kyllobernese said:


> I wish we had somewhere we could do nosework training in our area. I think Kris is a little bored with all the Obedience we have been doing for the past year and a half. I have backed off a lot in the last few weeks, still go but do some Agility which she loves, then just sit around and watch the others. It is not a formal class, just a bunch that get together and practice at least twice a week, sometimes three times. Now that the weather is getting better we will start training outside at different places. We have three schools we can go to now that the kids are out and a couple of ball diamonds we go to.


My training partner and I have only taken nosework classes online. Really, there is no need for a class. I think on-line learning for nosework might actually be much better than a class because you can watch the lectures over and over again as you need to and there is no distraction from other behaviors. Dogs do nosework in an area without other dogs, so that works too. 

The Fenzi Academy Nosework stuff is really wonderful. No need for classes in your area!


----------



## Laurelin

trainingjunkie said:


> My training partner and I have only taken nosework classes online. Really, there is no need for a class. I think on-line learning for nosework might actually be much better than a class because you can watch the lectures over and over again as you need to and there is no distraction from other behaviors. Dogs do nosework in an area without other dogs, so that works too.
> 
> The Fenzi Academy Nosework stuff is really wonderful. No need for classes in your area!


Yes for sure! I have taken the Fenzi nosework classes and it's easy to do by yourself. You can buy odor kits online for like $30ish. I like the fenzi approach better than traditional nosework classes, honestly. I like starting at odor vs spending forever with food.



taquitos said:


> This gave me a ton of ideas on how to work on Meeko's fear of wobbly objects. Thanks Laurelin! hehe
> 
> We've only done two agility classes so far but I already see an improvement in Meeko's fear of jumping on/off foreign objects. Paired with the Fenzi class I'm taking I'm pretty sure he's going to be way more confident about approaching things he has never done before.


Whoot! Yeah I'm having fun trying all sorts of new wobbly and crazy and loud games with Hank.


----------



## Laurelin

This is where I bought our kit and extra stuff. You can also make yourself but if you want to trial you need to make sure you are buying the right kind of oils. there's multiple birch/anise/clove oils so make sure if you don't buy through a supplier on NACSW that it's the same.

http://www.allgooddogs.biz/products


----------



## elrohwen

I plan to train Hazel in nosework completely by myself. I really want to try the Fenzi approach. I would like to do classes eventually because it's kind of fun to hang out, and will help proof stuff, but I'm not going through all of those intro courses again. Especially with spaniels who sniff everything anyway, they were a waste of time.


----------



## CptJack

...I think I'm going to buy one of those kits. You are all enablers.


----------



## Laurelin

That's what we're here for.


----------



## kadylady

This makes me want to start Skye with some nosework... don't know why I haven't yet! I'm sure she will love it as she does love to use her sniffer, and I have all the stuff. Gonna have to pull that out!

Speaking of the little...I'm really worried she is developing another UTI. My husband has been out of town this week so she's crated 4-5 hours then I come home for lunch for potty break and then crated another 4-5 hours. She has peed in her crate at least once the last 3 days and is drinking water like crazy again. I thought it was because it has been getting hot out and she's been drinking a lot of water at lunch time. But today I didn't let her drink hardly any water in the morning, she peed twice and pooped once before I left and still had an accident within 5 hours. Ugh! I'm going to take a urine sample down to my vet this afternoon and pray that we just have a potty training/drinking too much water issue.... It took 6 weeks for her UTI to completely clear up last time...


----------



## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> This makes me want to start Skye with some nosework... don't know why I haven't yet! I'm sure she will love it as she does love to use her sniffer, and I have all the stuff. Gonna have to pull that out!
> 
> Speaking of the little...I'm really worried she is developing another UTI. My husband has been out of town this week so she's crated 4-5 hours then I come home for lunch for potty break and then crated another 4-5 hours. She has peed in her crate at least once the last 3 days and is drinking water like crazy again. I thought it was because it has been getting hot out and she's been drinking a lot of water at lunch time. But today I didn't let her drink hardly any water in the morning, she peed twice and pooped once before I left and still had an accident within 5 hours. Ugh! I'm going to take a urine sample down to my vet this afternoon and pray that we just have a potty training/drinking too much water issue.... It took 6 weeks for her UTI to completely clear up last time...


Ugh, that sucks! I am honestly starting to worry about a UTI with Hazel. I get that she's tiny and has a tiny bladder, but the other day at lunch she had 3 accidents in less than an hour, and this was after I took her outside immediately (she peed twice) and one other time outside. Peeing 6 times in an hour seems excessive even for a 9.5 week old. Watson wasn't nearly this bad when he was that age. And it's not that she doesn't get the pee outside thing either - she's a rockstar at peeing immediately when we go out and she seems to understand it really well. She will even resist going back inside if she knows she has to go again.


----------



## Laurelin

FTR I have the student kit with birch/anise/clove but I think the starter kit with birch would be great for those just starting out and wanting to dabble. I'd probably buy some other containers since it just comes with one. In fact I need to buy some new containers...


----------



## elrohwen

I have the starter kit with birch from: http://k9nwsource.com/

It's great. I've purchased the other odors and a couple extra containers, but otherwise it's been enough for everything we've done.


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Ugh, that sucks! I am honestly starting to worry about a UTI with Hazel. I get that she's tiny and has a tiny bladder, but the other day at lunch she had 3 accidents in less than an hour, and this was after I took her outside immediately (she peed twice) and one other time outside. Peeing 6 times in an hour seems excessive even for a 9.5 week old. Watson wasn't nearly this bad when he was that age. And it's not that she doesn't get the pee outside thing either - she's a rockstar at peeing immediately when we go out and she seems to understand it really well. She will even resist going back inside if she knows she has to go again.


That does seem like a lot. I have never dealt with them until I got Skye, but that's exactly how she was, going allllllll the time! And going inside right after she would go outside. Or going multiple times in a row outside. If it were me (because I'm super paranoid about it now) I would take a urine sample to your vet and have it checked. It's better to catch it early and my vet only charges about $25 to run the sample. Skye actually had more pH issues that actual infection issues. It was such a pain though.


----------



## kadylady

I think I have this one... http://www.amazon.com/Nosework-Trai...4247&sr=8-1&keywords=Nosework+sport+scent+kit


----------



## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> That does seem like a lot. I have never dealt with them until I got Skye, but that's exactly how she was, going allllllll the time! And going inside right after she would go outside. Or going multiple times in a row outside. If it were me (because I'm super paranoid about it now) I would take a urine sample to your vet and have it checked. It's better to catch it early and my vet only charges about $25 to run the sample. Skye actually had more pH issues that actual infection issues. It was such a pain though.


The only thing she doesn't do is go inside immediately after going outside. She has a buffer of at least 10min, but 10min is really short. She's not a toy breed or anything.

I think I will get a sample and take it in. What did you use to take it in? Can it be on a paper towel or does it have to be in some kind of sealed container?


----------



## trainingjunkie

My nosework kit was buying Birch from an essential oil place and just making my own with empty tins and pill containers. Cost me $6. The kit is cute and stuff, but I had enough recyclables to meet all of my needs. So if money is an issue, Birch, cheap Q-tips, and a few empty pill bottle with holes drilled into the top will get you a strong start.

I am so compulsive and the kits were so cute that (really!) I knew I wouldn't want to use them because I wouldn't have wanted anything to get damaged or lost... How sick is that?

We have too many different conversations going at once on here. 

I hope all of the pups are okay. Sorry you are going through this scare. Both of you.


----------



## elrohwen

My starter kit wasn't cute at all. It was super basic and only $8:
http://k9nwsource.com/shop/student-starter-kit/

I did buy a few more containers and some tupperware things to store it in.


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> The only thing she doesn't do is go inside immediately after going outside. She has a buffer of at least 10min, but 10min is really short. She's not a toy breed or anything.
> 
> I think I will get a sample and take it in. What did you use to take it in? Can it be on a paper towel or does it have to be in some kind of sealed container?


I always take it in a clean sealed container because you don't want to contaminate it. They told me to just make sure that I don't let it sit for more than on hour or 2 before bringing it in. Tip...I use an old soup ladle to catch it. They first time I tried to catch it straight into the container....didn't work so well. lol


----------



## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> I always take it in a clean sealed container because you don't want to contaminate it. They told me to just make sure that I don't let it sit for more than on hour or 2 before bringing it in. Tip...I use an old soup ladle to catch it. They first time I tried to catch it straight into the container....didn't work so well. lol


She is so little and squats an inch off the ground - I have no idea how I would catch it! haha. I'll have to think


----------



## Laurelin

trainingjunkie said:


> My nosework kit was buying Birch from an essential oil place and just making my own with empty tins and pill containers. Cost me $6. The kit is cute and stuff, but I had enough recyclables to meet all of my needs. So if money is an issue, Birch, cheap Q-tips, and a few empty pill bottle with holes drilled into the top will get you a strong start.
> 
> I am so compulsive and the kits were so cute that (really!) I knew I wouldn't want to use them because I wouldn't have wanted anything to get damaged or lost... How sick is that?
> 
> We have too many different conversations going at once on here.
> 
> I hope all of the pups are okay. Sorry you are going through this scare. Both of you.


Haha yeah I'm lazy. I buy jumps for the same reason. I like my little convenient carry case and I like my fold up collapsible jump stands. Haha

The only thing is to make sure you (general) buy the right type of birch oil. Sweet birch. I've heard of people training their dogs on the wrong essential oil. Not a problem if you don't want to trial but if you do... or might....


----------



## Laurelin

Basically if you want to DIY don't buy Betula alba.

http://www.essentialoils.co.za/essential-oils/birch.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Extrac...F8&qid=1433966240&sr=8-4&keywords=betula+alba

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=i:aps,k:birch essential oil

Make sure it's SWEET birch. Betula Lenta

EDIT: In general if you DIY 

1.Birch (“Sweet Birch” aka Betula Lenta)
2.Anise (“Aniseed” aka Pimpinella Anisum variety – NOT Star Anise, Illicium Verum)
3.Clove (“Clove Bud” aka Eugenia Caryophylatta or Syzgium Aromaticum)

I think anise was the one I heard someone used the wrong oil?


----------



## pawsaddict

elrohwen said:


> She is so little and squats an inch off the ground - I have no idea how I would catch it! haha. I'll have to think


I use a vegetable spoon to catch Marley's urine, haha.


----------



## elrohwen

pawsaddict said:


> I use a vegetable spoon to catch Marley's urine, haha.


What is a vegetable spoon? 

We needed a sample from Watson once and the tech asked if he would pee if I took him outside. I said sure, I just needed a vertical surface and she needed to be fast. He was so fast she almost didn't get the tray under in time. LOL Boys!


----------



## Laurelin

Laurelin said:


> Haha yeah I'm lazy. I buy jumps for the same reason. I like my little convenient carry case and I like my fold up collapsible jump stands. Haha
> 
> The only thing is to make sure you (general) buy the right type of birch oil. Sweet birch. I've heard of people training their dogs on the wrong essential oil. Not a problem if you don't want to trial but if you do... or might....


I finally broke down and am building a teeter because the $389 plank+base+ shipping was a bit tough to swallow. But I basically hate DIY. lol I suck at it.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I finally broke down and am building a teeter because the $389 plank was a bit tough to swallow. But I basically hate DIY. lol I suck at it.


I make my husband do stuff. I tell him that the price he pays for his fancy miter saw is making me dog equipment every once in a while.

He's slow though and the wobble board materials have been in the garage for 3 weeks. Haha.


----------



## pawsaddict

elrohwen said:


> What is a vegetable spoon?
> 
> We needed a sample from Watson once and the tech asked if he would pee if I took him outside. I said sure, I just needed a vertical surface and she needed to be fast. He was so fast she almost didn't get the tray under in time. LOL Boys!


This thing:

http://www.brabantia.com/int_en/vegetable-spoon-stainless-steel/


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## elrohwen

pawsaddict said:


> This thing:
> 
> http://www.brabantia.com/int_en/vegetable-spoon-stainless-steel/


Ohhh!! I have a spoon like that. Unfortunately I don't have one that I don't use on food, but I guess that's what the dishwasher is for. The things we do for dogs.


----------



## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> I make my husband do stuff. I tell him that the price he pays for his fancy miter saw is making me dog equipment every once in a while.
> 
> He's slow though and the wobble board materials have been in the garage for 3 weeks. Haha.


I really need me one of those (husbands)


----------



## kadylady

Laurelin said:


> I really need me one of those (husbands)


Pros and cons


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I really need me one of those (husbands)


They are pretty useful! Though the amount of money they spend in power tools really doesn't seem equivalent to amount of useful stuff they actually build with those power tools.


----------



## pawsaddict

elrohwen said:


> Ohhh!! I have a spoon like that. Unfortunately I don't have one that I don't use on food, but I guess that's what the dishwasher is for. The things we do for dogs.


I know, right! Marley is just so short that I can't get anything else under her. Works like a charm. We bought one specifically for this purpose, haha.


----------



## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> Yes for sure! I have taken the Fenzi nosework classes and it's easy to do by yourself. You can buy odor kits online for like $30ish. I like the fenzi approach better than traditional nosework classes, honestly. I like starting at odor vs spending forever with food.


Funny enough one of my nosework trainers essentially said Jubel probably would have done better if he was trained starting directly with odor than starting on food. Mostly because he is too focused on the food and scavenging. It's close to guaranteed that handlers are going to drop food around the hides be in classes or trials. Even if the handles don't drop food little bits will still hit the ground, odor from treats will pool on the ground, slobber, etc. All things dogs like Jubel notice and have to check out. So while he gets the game and finds the odor he is more interested in scavenging for possible food around the hide than telling me where the hide is and getting food from me. Scavenged food is much more rewarding apparently. 

So his new suggestion for us in travel classes where I know where the hides are is the swoop in and reward him as soon as he's on the hide and then pull him away before he can start to scavenge around the hide. I've been lucky that he seems to have good days when we've been at trials and earned our NW2 but some days... He finds the odor, we all know he's found the odor but he gives ZERO indication to me about it. It's almost funny sometimes, he can be at either extreme. Very clear alerts or zero alert at all. You can tell when he is IN odor and searching the vast majority of the time but sometimes he'll source it and just walk away as if nothing was actually there. Before we sign up for an NW3 trial I'd really like to get that worked out haha.


----------



## CptJack

I have *almost* gotten Kylie back to where she was with weaves. Almost. There's more independence there (less feedback from me) but she's still pretty clearly uncertain and as a result being much, much slower with them than she was before I turned them into a bad thing. She is getting happier about them, though, so that's good.

Did a short (3 minute?) Training session with Molly, too, without any treats or toys or anything but praise. Inside the house where distractions basically didn't exist but to be honest I think it almost went better for lack of other reward. Weird.


----------



## elrohwen

Last night was Hazel's first puppy class! We basically lured sits and downs, learned "leave it", and learned about leash walking. I'm doing tuck sits and fold back downs this time, and when I was demonstrating the fold back down the instructor said "Getting fancy with this one!" Haha. With Watson it was too much information for me to process to teach sits and downs *and* teach them only one specific way. But now it's easy. Puppy class with #2 is so much easier. 

I really need to work on name recognition though. Funny how it's such a basic thing and I'm like "Meh, I would rather shape going to her mat and perching on a bowl". She's going to be 6 months and still think her name is PuppyPuppy.

I also worked a lot on play and keeping her occupied and not staring at the other dogs. For half of the class she was rolling around on her back while chewing a bully stick. LOL I always get the weird ones.

Class is made up of:
dalmatian (completely terrified)
white boxer (only 7 weeks and also terrified)
ACD (maybe mix? looks purebred except the ears still flop over a bit; super calm and sweet)
neo mastiff (omg the wrinkles)
dutch shepherd (could be a brindle mix with pointy ears, but looks like a dutch shep; I'll have to ask the owners)
bully mix
lab mix (maybe purebred? apparently same owner as the ACD so they are raising two pups)
weim (total wild child, looks to be 4 months with zero training, beautiful dog though)
schnauzer (liver colored so maybe a schnoodle? but looks pure schnauzer in body shape and hair)
shorty mix (black, one ear up one floppy, curly tail, shorty legs - so cute)


----------



## CptJack

It sounds like you are having a TON of fun with Hazel! I'm really glad (and laughed at her jumping on the other puppy's head; I'm awful).

--

Have been doing weave work with Kylie for a couple of very, very short sessions a day. The hardest part of this has been weaning her off my 'yes' for every properly completed pole. Actually, that's MOST of what we're working on, along with her not looking back to me or generally looking for affirmation that she's right. We're getting there, with both sides, but not all that fast. 

Molly I'm mostly just plunked down her target bucket at the bottom of our stairs and have her hit it every time she follows me down/comes down with me. I'm seeing way less jumping off it, now, or pivoting off or other silliness. We'll see how it translates to class.


----------



## elrohwen

I watched the other puppies greet and they were mostly doing some polite sniffing. Then there is my dog, "Hi I'm Hazel and I want to hug your face!" Haha. She met our neighbor's bull mastiff and tried to hug his face too. He was a very good and patient boy, just like when Watson was little.


----------



## CrimsonAccent

I love Hazel! So much puppy enthusiasm.

So I had some fun this morning as I was watching Hell's Kitchen. Inspired by the training burnout thread, I sat on my throne with a cup full of treats and the pups were all ears.

Started by having all 3 sit and they had to wait their turn for a treat (Donut, Cupcake, Gingerbread). Then did some toss and catch (well Gingerbread and Cupcake aced it but the treat bounced off Donut's face poor boy).

Then I made it rain treats. Just threw them everywhere. It was fun seeing their reactions. Gingerbread just took off full force. If the other two weren't fast enough she would gobble theirs up too (I threw handfuls in different directions). Cupcake was pretty accurate. A little less fast/enthusiastic but her nose led her to everything. 

Donut...

Dopiest dog I've ever met. So chill. Like I don't know. He barks and will get excited. He just exudes less energy? 

He very slowly got treats. Mainly remained in his sit and wanted me to give him treats. How old are dogs when they typically really get their full development of vision? He's only 6 months~ so is that why he seems so uncoordinated? I point and he doesn't really follow and doesn't seem to track the treats when I tossed them. 

So any other preferred exercises games for multiple dogs? I do need to pull them for their own one on one training but most of the time it's two or all three of them.


----------



## CptJack

I dunno. Molly was tracking and chasing balls pretty successfully from about 10 weeks old, and I'm pretty sure their vision is fully in place by 8 weeks. He MIGHT have a problem with his vision, but if he overall exudes less energy he may just not be as into the game as the other dogs. Some scramble around for food and get all giddy, but some just don't and that's okay. 

Get it looked at if you're concerned, though.


----------



## LoMD13

My goal for Lola is....down. We have to completely go back to square 1 with a new word and a new hand signal and the works. I hate having really good fast runs NQ because we have to have a battle of wills at the table every time.


----------



## CptJack

I'm getting really sentimental about agility, lately. I've had dogs for my entire life, and always thought agility seemed cool as a concept but had little interest in doing it. Until a couple of years ago I kinda 'mehed' about classes and sports, been content to live with the dogs, love them and hike with them and, really, I still am. I don't love the dogs I don't do agility with less than I love the ones I do. 

But what's happening in my relationship with Kylie, now, and what I'm *just* starting to see bare glimmers of with Molly through agility (more in disc) just... it takes my breath away, sometimes - makes me tear up. There is SOMETHING about it -I swear it's like those two have come ALIVE lately, and *I* am part of the picture in this stuff they love doing. I'm not something external that controls their access to what they love but really, fully, participatory in this thing they are CRAZY in love with that just.

Yeah. I'm all emotional about it right now. 

And to think, a year ago I looked at it and went 'eh, I don't know if I want to keep doing this'. Yes, yes I do because I feel like I'm just getting to the place where I UNDERSTAND what the point of it all is.

*ETA:* And no, obviously I don't mean it's only possible in agility at all - just that agility is what's changing how I see working with my dogs. Guess I'm past that weird pressurey freak out I had going on last week? .Also put it here because, well, it's a goal for me with Molly, even if it's not a traditional one.


----------



## trainingjunkie

I get it. There's something special about what happens when you form a partnership with a dog and you work together towards a goal. It adds another dimension of fun, trust, and understanding. It's really pretty wonderful. You have to stick with it a while before it all presents itself, but once it does, it's worth it.

Very happy for you!


----------



## CptJack

And 24 hours and thinking about this - and how long for me to even START to get there with Kylie in agility (2 years, basically, for me to be far enough beyond learning the dance moves and training the behaviors to get the start of this awesome stuff) and I have realized that a lot of my 'struggle' with teaching Molly this agility stuff is less feeling _like _I'm trying to learn a totally new language, as the fact that I am _literally_ learning a new language and so is she. I'm just aware enough to notice, now.

Also, just because: Argh.


----------



## elrohwen

Hazel went to her first agility trial this weekend and did very well! She was mostly crated in the car, because they weren't allowing in puppies under 6 months, but I did take her in the building for a bit when I noticed at least 3 others puppies in there. She was completely silent while crated in the car (thank goodness! that took Watson forever), and just so good. No issues at all going in the building (went went in while they were setting up the course so it was a little less hectic). She met my friend's JRTs, played a bit in the fields, and was generally a good girl. Everyone keeps commenting on how calm she is which is weird ... she's calm and well behaved in public, but definitely not at home where she's a wild child. I think they're used to Watson's craziness but they forget that didn't start until he was a teenager.

She also went out to dinner with us in Saratoga and was very good. She slept next to the table most of the time, and was fine walking through a busy crowded town. I did pick her up a few times because boy is she a slow walker. LOL She trots along but she's little and doesn't move quickly and I get impatient. 

I was worried about accidents since we stayed with my parents and their apartment is carpeted, but she didn't have a single one! I'm starting to think she definitely doesn't have a UTI and really did need to pee every 5-10 minutes for a while. They are on the second floor and have stairs going to the outside entrance, and she would run down there whenever she needed to go out, which was pretty cool. Watson has never alerted but she seems to have the idea.


----------



## CptJack

Man, I am SO loving reading about Hazel, and I keep falling more in love with her name every time you post. Also really enjoying following along with her.

Also the picture of her in your signature is just priceless!


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Man, I am SO loving reading about Hazel, and I keep falling more in love with her name every time you post. Also really enjoying following along with her.
> 
> Also the picture of her in your signature is just priceless!


Thanks! My dad took a bunch this weekend and that's the only one he sent because he thought it was the best. We often have different ideas of which picture is the best though, so I'm excited to see what else he got. He often critiques pictures more on their technical merits (this one was too dark, this one was not framed well) while I'm more interested in the dog's expression or what they are doing, and I care less about how technically good the picture is. We usually surprise each other with the pictures that we like the most.

It's funny about her name - lots of people didn't like it when I first told them, but after meeting her most people say "Hazel is the perfect name!" My mom also remembered some song from the '60s called "Hooray for Hazel" that fits her perfectly. lol



> Hazel only does things she wants to do
> She's selfish and she's spoiled and she knows that she's cute


----------



## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> Last night was Hazel's first puppy class! We basically lured sits and downs, learned "leave it", and learned about leash walking. I'm doing tuck sits and fold back downs this time, and when I was demonstrating the fold back down the instructor said "Getting fancy with this one!" Haha. With Watson it was too much information for me to process to teach sits and downs *and* teach them only one specific way. But now it's easy. Puppy class with #2 is so much easier.
> 
> I really need to work on name recognition though. Funny how it's such a basic thing and I'm like "Meh, I would rather shape going to her mat and perching on a bowl". She's going to be 6 months and still think her name is PuppyPuppy.


Is a tuck sit when the dog moves its back legs in to sit?

Also, having taught one dog basic obedience (albeit sloppily), teaching the second one is so much easier.

Took Ida to the park today, and she only barked at one dog, although she did submissive pee a bunch of times. She met a whole schwack of dogs, and even played with a schnauzer, until Snowball decided it was time to be the fun police. I let her drag her leash for the last 100 meters or so of the walk, and she took off after Snowball (who was in turn running away from her because his tail is still her favourite plaything)... It took one call to get her to look at me and one call and she came running as fast as her not-so-little-anymore legs would carry her, it was amazing and I hope her recall stays at least this good forever. 

Also, having multiple strangers tell me what a good puppy she is doesn't hurt either. I'm so lucky. <3


----------



## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> Also, having taught one dog basic obedience (albeit sloppily), teaching the second one is so much easier.
> 
> Took Ida to the park today, and she only barked at one dog, although she did submissive pee a bunch of times. She met a whole schwack of dogs, and even played with a schnauzer, until Snowball decided it was time to be the fun police. I let her drag her leash for the last 100 meters or so of the walk, and she took off after Snowball (who was in turn running away from her because his tail is still her favourite plaything)... It took one call to get her to look at me and one call and she came running as fast as her not-so-little-anymore legs would carry her, it was amazing and I hope her recall stays at least this good forever.
> 
> Also, having multiple strangers tell me what a good puppy she is doesn't hurt either. I'm so lucky. <3


Aww, yay! Good job Ida!



> Is a tuck sit when the dog moves its back legs in to sit?


Yep, front legs stay in place, back legs move forward into the sit.


----------



## elrohwen

This puppy is so smart! She picks up on things so quickly, much more quickly than Watson ever did or does. Today we worked on leave it/impulse control for the first time. Within a 2min training session she was leaving multiple treats on the floor and giving me eye contact instead of staring at the treat. I need to stop being so lazy and start working on some adorable tricks.


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## CptJack

Okay, I'm posting this all over because I really want some input. 

Molly is being taught a 2o2o stopped contact. There is a paw target at the bottom of the obstacle. She is still at the stage where she is being asked to hit that on her way down. Which she does. She also stops. However, once she hits it, she pivots her rear end 90 degrees so it's no longer on the obstacle (and neither is she, since her feet are still on the target). On stairs, hills, whatever I have in my house I've gotten her over this, but it is NOT translating to the obstacles. 

...Any brilliant ideas how to fix this?


----------



## Flaming

CptJack said:


> Okay, I'm posting this all over because I really want some input.
> 
> Molly is being taught a 2o2o stopped contact. There is a paw target at the bottom of the obstacle. She is still at the stage where she is being asked to hit that on her way down. Which she does. She also stops. However, once she hits it, she pivots her rear end 90 degrees so it's no longer on the obstacle (and neither is she, since her feet are still on the target). On stairs, hills, whatever I have in my house I've gotten her over this, but it is NOT translating to the obstacles.
> 
> ...Any brilliant ideas how to fix this?


Back paw targeting while a timed hold. 

Teach her to target a new thing with her back paw and asked for her to hold that position for a duration before rewarding. (build duration of course.) then fade target as per usual


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## CptJack

That might work, depending on how I approached it. I think the biggest issue I have is that she's not changing her weight/leaning back when she's coming down the descent of the obstacles, so the pivot off is to keep her from landing on her face. There has GOT to be a way to get through her head that she needs to do that. Rear end awarness/rear paw SOMETHING might work into that. 

(And I know that info wasn't in the previous post, I'm sorry, I just realized it when someone else asked me about it.)


----------



## Flaming

CptJack said:


> That might work, depending on how I approached it. I think the biggest issue I have is that she's not changing her weight/leaning back when she's coming down the descent of the obstacles, so the pivot off is to keep her from landing on her face. There has GOT to be a way to get through her head that she needs to do that. Rear end awarness/rear paw SOMETHING might work into that.
> 
> (And I know that info wasn't in the previous post, I'm sorry, I just realized it when someone else asked me about it.)


targeting with a back paw might force her to transfer weight back certainly


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## elrohwen

No ideas for the 2o2o problem. I've barely trained them myself, but I did see a lot of times where Watson would end up pivoting like that because he was going too fast and didn't decelerate in time.

My little idiot face dog might be growing up! Last night was our second proofing class (basically a distractions class). His heeling was lazy and sloppy at first (he was with me, but his head wasn't up), but in the second round he was really awesome. We basically heeled in a square close to other dogs (the people in front of me always walk way too slow), and the instructor threw in random distractions. Then we did recalls, with the instructor sitting in a chair in the middle. Then stays. He was really so so good. He was barely an idiot with other dogs other than a little excitement when a golden came in late. He's become so calm in his stays and I felt comfortable dropping the leash and stepping away 20ft. Thank goodness for a little maturity. When he stays calm he's actually able to use his brain for work, instead of wearing himself out being all over the place in between exercises.


----------



## CptJack

Sit pretty and play dead are my current projects with Molly. We've worked the position in beg enough free to have the core strength, but she has to actually pay attention and use some caution to avoid falling over. She just can't fling herself at it and succeed. Play dead is the 'stay limp while picked up' and going to take a whole but again with it requiring the opposite of speed and flail.


----------



## trainingjunkie

CptJack: Here's how I taught 2o2o. If you do this and always throw the reward straight and pause before the release, it will shape a nice straight position. Does this make sense to you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNaVewLgWgQ

You do it while standing in front, in back, in motion, etc. I have about a million of these videos from different angles. Lets you do the training with lots of reps without as much wear and tear on the body.


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## CptJack

It does make sense! It's kind of what we've been doing, except we have a physical target at the end of the plank and feeding in position. I suspect throwing the toy in a straight line will help clarify what she needs to do and prevent the pivot, if it's related to wanting to pivot her head toward me to get fed or something.


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## CptJack

I FOUND A WAY TO REPLICATE MY ISSUE. ...I propped my board up on a tire (laid flat) so there's some slope instead of stairs/sharp drop off. It's definitely still going to take time but I feel better now.


----------



## CptJack

I think I have mostly resolved my issue. Might still crop up in class because of more speed and a steeper angle, but I think we're on the right path. 

In other news, I've been mostly using food for rewards for Molly in class, because toys ramp her up and frankly I haven't wanted her ramped up more during class, because we were dealing with her reactivity. Starting to wonder if I shouldn't start switching her over to toys in class - provided she WILL play (tug is always a go, ball is kind of...iffy sometimes in class, but never out - probably stress). I don't have any real problem with food, but I feel like she actually 'works' better when she just sees the whole thing as a complicated game of fetch. I don't know if my timing is better, if she just wants the ball that much more, or what, but she picks up things so. much. faster. when I just work with a ball. 

Guess I'll see how that goes tomorrow night and update y'all. Meant to do it last week and just forgot.

I really need to get a better feel of this toy vs food reward thing with her, though. Or rather, at what point to switch. I know roughly when I use each but finding that tipping point from one to the other (when relevant) is hard!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Can you toggle between food and toy? With my faster whippet, I will throw a toy and when he brings it back to me, I tug a little and then give him food. As he gets more and more tired, we tug less and feed quicker. But if he doesn't bring me the toy back, he doesn't get food.

Also, I will throw a container and reward from food inside of it when my dog brings it back. That makes it a little mix of food and toy. Best of both worlds.


----------



## CptJack

The container with food is what I use 99% of the time with Kylie, and actually managed to get her toy drive built back up. I haven't tried it with Molly because I don't think I have containers big enough that she wouldn't swallow whole (Yet - dog's been known to eat stuffed animal body parts, kind of wary about that one). Maybe a vitamin bottle?

I do toggle food and fetch sometimes. At home (or anywhere else outdoors), not so much lately because she'd really honestly rather have another ball throw than she would the food, and the food's just in the way of her ball time. She doesn't try to hang onto the ball, though, or tug with it - just drops it in my hand and resets. Mixing it up in class is a good idea, though, with tug and ball. Might help build some confidence in playing there, with that level of distraction and keep her from turning frenzied. (Though honestly I suspect having to wait for her next turn might do that for her, too. Maybe. Or the opposite. I don't know, I'm still fumbling my way through this 'dog with toy drive' thing).


----------



## elrohwen

Watson is doing so well in his obedience class! His stays have improved tremendously from the last time we practiced over a year ago. I think he needed time to mature and settle. He's very relaxed now and not looking around for reasons to get up. I still struggle to keep his head up in heeling, but he's getting better. He recalled past a line of dogs last night, including an intact male who had been trying to play with him earlier. The best part is that he doesn't shriek and jump around during the off times in class - he is able to lie at my feet calmly until it's time to do the next thing. I'm more excited by that than anything else.

We might be starting private agility lessons soon too. I had emailed someone from the local club a few months ago and she said we could do it in her backyard, since the club was full evenings and weekends, but her yard was a muddy mess in mid-March. I got up the courage to ask again and we're going to set something up. The off leash thing is really his problem and if she can help fix that we might be able to learn something.


----------



## ireth0

We graduate from Advanced Obedience on Sunday!

So so so happy with this dog. 

Still need to work on our heeling but that will come with practice. Next up trying out Rally!


----------



## elrohwen

I've been re-watching Michael Ellis' DVD "Advanced Condepts in Motivation" and I forgot how good it was! I really need a way to get Watson excited and ready to train. I've noticed in class lately that his heeling is terrible for the first 10-15 minutes, but once he warms up he's on point. I think using more food play that gets him moving would help, so I started practicing the stuff in the DVD. We're in the basement, running around, having an awesome time. He's doing a little heeling work and he's pushy and loving it. Then I ran back to get some more treats and as we're returning to the training area he jumps up right at the moment my hand is swinging and I punch him in the face :facepalm: He looked so sad! It totally killed all of the momentum we had. He was still willing to play and work a little (I certainly didn't want to end on that note), but he totally didn't trust me after that. Way to go, first high energy motivational training session with some new techniques and I punch my dog in the face.

Anyway, I realized why I love this technique so much. He encourages the dog to push you to engage, even if it's just by sitting and making eye contact, and then you explode into action and fun. Then back to calm and still until the dog "makes you" be exciting. So many resources just tell you to be fun and engaging with no other explanation, but if Watson isn't in the mood to work and I'm jumping around like an idiot, he doesn't really know what I want and he disengages more. It's like he's thinking "Ok, you do your weird thing over there. I'm gonna go sniff over here now." I like this explanation much better and I think it's so much clearer to the dog that he can cause me to be fun - it's putting the responsibility to engage on the dog which is what I wanted. I'm sure other people do the same thing, but I haven't heard it explained quote the way Ellis does. And the food movement and games he uses are so much more motivating than just handing over food.

I'm going to take the Fenzi engagement course in August, and I feel like she's going to use some of the same stuff in a slightly different way. She says the first stage of engagement is where you act interesting and the responsibility is on you to get the dog's attention, but you need to switch the responsibility to the dog quickly or you will end up cheerleading forever and the dog will still blow you off. Ellis is basically doing the same thing.


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## CptJack

HOLY CRAP you guys! I just took Molly out to work on agility in the field and after a ball toss she froze, and crouched and I looked up and we had a doe and two fawns maybe 10 feet away from us and Molly started to run and I told her to leave it and -

SHE LEFT IT AND CAME BACK TO ME AND STOOD BESIDE ME (I held her collar lightly, just in case) and watched while all three turned and bounded off. 

That is SO FREAKING HUGE. That is SO unbelievably huge. She has obsessively chased just about everything, FOREVER, and she *didn't*, even when they broke and ran (well bounded). I. I. Think I'm going to cry.

ETA: ...I have no idea why I posted this in this thread. Um. Overexcitement maybe?


----------



## kadylady

CptJack said:


> HOLY CRAP you guys! I just took Molly out to work on agility in the field and after a ball toss she froze, and crouched and I looked up and we had a doe and two fawns maybe 10 feet away from us and Molly started to run and I told her to leave it and -
> 
> SHE LEFT IT AND CAME BACK TO ME AND STOOD BESIDE ME (I held her collar lightly, just in case) and watched while all three turned and bounded off.
> 
> That is SO FREAKING HUGE. That is SO unbelievably huge. She has obsessively chased just about everything, FOREVER, and she *didn't*, even when they broke and ran (well bounded). I. I. Think I'm going to cry.
> 
> ETA: ...I have no idea why I posted this in this thread. Um. Overexcitement maybe?


Yay Molly!! That is SOOOOO HUGE!!!


----------



## CptJack

kadylady said:


> Yay Molly!! That is SOOOOO HUGE!!!


I AM still about half giddy! It's really ridiculous. And you could tell she knew she did well (probably because I was gushing at her and played all the way back to the house), but she was all waggy and prancy about it.


----------



## pawsaddict

CptJack said:


> HOLY CRAP you guys! I just took Molly out to work on agility in the field and after a ball toss she froze, and crouched and I looked up and we had a doe and two fawns maybe 10 feet away from us and Molly started to run and I told her to leave it and -
> 
> SHE LEFT IT AND CAME BACK TO ME AND STOOD BESIDE ME (I held her collar lightly, just in case) and watched while all three turned and bounded off.
> 
> That is SO FREAKING HUGE. That is SO unbelievably huge. She has obsessively chased just about everything, FOREVER, and she *didn't*, even when they broke and ran (well bounded). I. I. Think I'm going to cry.
> 
> ETA: ...I have no idea why I posted this in this thread. Um. Overexcitement maybe?


Yayyyyy! Way to go, Molly!


----------



## ireth0

We graduated Advanced Obedience last night! Which just so happened to be 1 year since I first saw Luna at the shelter. 

Due to finances I am anticipating there is going to be a bit of a gap before we are able to start Rally.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> We graduated Advanced Obedience last night! Which just so happened to be 1 year since I first saw Luna at the shelter.
> 
> Due to finances I am anticipating there is going to be a bit of a gap before we are able to start Rally.


Congrats! I can't believe it's been a year already.

You can always start working on rally yourself. All of the signs are online (at least for AKC, I assume CKC too) and you can start working through them. And we're always here to help


----------



## Eenypup

So I think I may be getting more out of trying LAT with kids than Bennie is, but I'm sure she's also getting some sort of positive association  Yesterday was free admission to the children's museum down the street, so there was practically a parade of families going past our area! We did two 30ish minute sessions and went through a stick of cheese. I felt super in control even when families stopped in front of us or she saw kids running past inches of where we were standing. And I got some practice telling kids they couldn't pet her, which was really good for me.


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## pawsaddict

Eenypup said:


> So I think I may be getting more out of trying LAT with kids than Bennie is, but I'm sure she's also getting some sort of positive association  Yesterday was free admission to the children's museum down the street, so there was practically a parade of families going past our area! We did two 30ish minute sessions and went through a stick of cheese. I felt super in control even when families stopped in front of us or she saw kids running past inches of where we were standing. And I got some practice telling kids they couldn't pet her, which was really good for me.


That's awesome. It gets easier as you practice. For adults, I have no problem just saying "no" and leaving it at that. For kids, I will usually tell them that no, they cannot pet her, but that they are very smart for asking...something like that, depending on the age of the child.


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## Eenypup

Surprisingly no one was offended! Kids just walked off without seeming to mind that I told them "No, I'm sorry!" although reminding them that it was great that they asked first would probably be nice! One mother asked and I said no since she had kids with her, she didn't ask why or anything and just remarked how pretty Bennie was before they left.


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## TGKvr

So far my dog has been an absolute joy to train. There is one thing that she just WILL NOT DO no matter how hard I try, daily. The couch. She LOVES to snuggle on the couch! She'll get off when I tell her to, though sometimes reluctantly (in other words, walking the whole length of the couch before hopping off). But it doesn't stop her from jumping on the couch each day and night. Especially at night, and especially when she wants to cuddle. I have often just gotten down on her bed with her to cuddle at night, so she's used to regular snuggle time (I know, so spoiled). But her absolute favorite thing is to curl up with us on the couch. We have always implemented a "no dogs on the couch" policy, and with our last dog she didn't try so hard so it just wasn't an issue. I'm getting worn down! It's so hard to resist her cute, wrinkly face, especially when she jumps up and immediately snuggles up to me and take a deep sigh like "ahhhhhh this is where I've wanted to be all my life". 

What are your preferred tips/tricks to work on this? I'm tempted to just say screw it and let it happen because - it's not like I don't like cozying up together, but I just want it to be on MY terms not hers. I've tried time outs, stern NO, etc. I haven't tried putting her in her crate yet because I don't want that place to become a punishment zone, especially since she has less crate time than ever since she started sleeping with us full time. (maybe this is part of the problem?) I figured I'd try asking here before giving up completely and becoming a dogs on the couch sort of household. 

Oh, I do also have a cat and of course she goes where she pleases so sometimes I wonder if my dog is like "well if SHE can be on the couch why can't I?"


----------



## CptJack

CptJack said:


> I think I have mostly resolved my issue. Might still crop up in class because of more speed and a steeper angle, but I think we're on the right path.
> 
> In other news, I've been mostly using food for rewards for Molly in class, because toys ramp her up and frankly I haven't wanted her ramped up more during class, because we were dealing with her reactivity. Starting to wonder if I shouldn't start switching her over to toys in class - provided she WILL play (tug is always a go, ball is kind of...iffy sometimes in class, but never out - probably stress). I don't have any real problem with food, but I feel like she actually 'works' better when she just sees the whole thing as a complicated game of fetch. I don't know if my timing is better, if she just wants the ball that much more, or what, but she picks up things so. much. faster. when I just work with a ball.
> 
> Guess I'll see how that goes tomorrow night and update y'all. Meant to do it last week and just forgot.
> 
> I really need to get a better feel of this toy vs food reward thing with her, though. Or rather, at what point to switch. I know roughly when I use each but finding that tipping point from one to the other (when relevant) is hard!


So, update on this: We used a ball quite a bit as a reward this week and it worked out pretty well. Better focus with the ball, for sure, even though she's still not prepared to bring it BACK in class. She was willing to catch it if I tossed it to her, and chase it. Just not, um, bring it all the way back. I think that'll probably resolve itself though. The boarding dogs in the place were going APE tonight and that was a whole lot of stress for her to deal with.


----------



## Flaming

Manna can now fit under a small round 2 person cafe table and puts herself there semi automatically. 

*is proud*


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## elrohwen

TGKvr, I just let my dogs on the couch. I like to snuggle with them there and it's not worth it to me to fight that battle. We didn't let dogs on the new couch when I was a kid and they got the idea, but we could never keep them off when we weren't around. We just flipped up the cushions. 

Watson had obedience last night and he was so so good. We did lots of heeling exercises around other dogs and he was so focused, heads up beautiful heeling the whole time. I was really proud. He did great recalls through a bunch of stuff (tunnels, random hoolahoops and other crap you can find in a training facility). He did a real stand for exam which I didn't even know he could do without moving a foot. He got antsy for the down stay but he managed to hold it for 2.5 minutes out of 3. He's such a good dog.


----------



## Laurelin

Hank has decided he belongs on the back of the couch with the other dogs. Nothing like sitting in a chair with two papillons and a spotted dog all trying to sit on your shoulder.


----------



## CptJack

THUD sits on the back of our couch. Badly. The middle cushion is permanently crescent shaped.


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## Flaming

CptJack said:


> THUD sits on the back of our couch. Badly. The middle cushion is permanently crescent shaped.


BWAHAHAHAHA

How does he even balance on that?


----------



## dagwall

Daphne is also a fan of the back of the couch. Sometimes watching out the window other times just watching me. We have a sectional and she has come close MANY times to tipping the corner section over, she did fall behind it once. We have it blocked off so the dogs can't get behind the couch so she couldn't just walk out. We watched and laugh at her for a bit as she checked both sides, then she just jumped back over onto the couch. That girl has jumps.


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## elrohwen

Watson only sits on the back of the couch when he's nervous about fireworks or thunder. He doesn't even look particularly nervous, he just has this need to sit on the back of the couch. I think he's saying "The enemy is attacking! Get up high and fortify your positions!"


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## Laurelin

It wouldn't be so bad with Hank if I had a real couch and not just a cushy chair. lol There is no room for all 4 of us in a single seat chair. But they pile in anyways.


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## CptJack

Flaming said:


> BWAHAHAHAHA
> 
> How does he even balance on that?


Badly, but it's also against our stair case so he uses the railing to help keep him from completely falling off instead of just sort of... dangling all over it.


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## KodiBarracuda

Maisy and roonie love the back of the couch too. I just got a new couch without much of a back, I don't live at my house right now so she hasn't gotten a chance to try to balance back there yet but I'm sure she will find a way.


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## TGKvr

OK, so for the dogs on the couch folks... how do you handle this when you travel? I guess that's part of my concern is that I know many people that welcome her into their home but do NOT want her on their furniture. I don't want the hopping onto the couch to be a given for her, and I don't want to have to keep yelling at her for doing so when we're at a friend's place. That's a big part of why I don't want her on my own furniture.

Though honestly I am caring less about it as time goes on because really, there are more important battles to fight.


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## CptJack

I mostly board my dogs when I travel somewhere they can't go - no couches in kennels. When I do leave them with my mother (who really doesn't care about most furniture but does some of it) she either crates them when they're alone/unsupervised and doesn't let them get up on the furniture, or blocks them out of those rooms.


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## elrohwen

I can't think of a single person I would stay with who wasn't ok with my dogs on their couch. It's never come up for me.


----------



## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> I can't think of a single person I would stay with who wasn't ok with my dogs on their couch. It's never come up for me.


This. Any place Jubel has gone with me he was welcomed fully or I'd leave him home.


----------



## Flaming

TGKvr said:


> OK, so for the dogs on the couch folks... how do you handle this when you travel? I guess that's part of my concern is that I know many people that welcome her into their home but do NOT want her on their furniture. I don't want the hopping onto the couch to be a given for her, and I don't want to have to keep yelling at her for doing so when we're at a friend's place. That's a big part of why I don't want her on my own furniture.
> 
> Though honestly I am caring less about it as time goes on because really, there are more important battles to fight.


Easy, it's a different couch.

Manna and Vitae don't even enter my in laws living room where the couches are (stay off all carpeting they have actually) and they didn't even attempt my parents couches until literally last sunday when my dad called and bribed them up with treats. 

They hog my couches though unless told "off"

It's a training thing, dogs can learn the difference between houses


----------



## Canyx

TGKvr said:


> OK, so for the dogs on the couch folks... how do you handle this when you travel? I guess that's part of my concern is that I know many people that welcome her into their home but do NOT want her on their furniture. I don't want the hopping onto the couch to be a given for her, and I don't want to have to keep yelling at her for doing so when we're at a friend's place. That's a big part of why I don't want her on my own furniture.
> 
> Though honestly I am caring less about it as time goes on because really, there are more important battles to fight.


I'd imagine it to be something workable with training... Teach a strong Off command given by yourself and others. And provide a management option, such as a crate or plan a doggie area of the house where they can be confined when not supervised.


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## TGKvr

She's actually pretty good with "off", though more so when she has opportunity to sit there for a minute. Haha! As well as she listens, I don't know why I worry so much sometimes. I'm pretty sure I could train her to do anything.

Right now we're working on some pre-football season training - I say "goooooooo dawgs!" and she goes "woof woof woof"! At least that's the plan. We really just have gotten through "speak". :clap2:


----------



## ireth0

Luna is basically on our couch 24/7 at home, even if the casual observer would say there was no room- she will find and/or make room. Also even if there is open space... most of the time she still wants to be on top of us or touching us instead. She is snuggly and cuddly, and I like it. It's just part of who she is, and IMO it's kind of part of the bully package. I always tell people if you're big on personal space, don't get a bully. 

When we visit my mom's she has never tried to get up on furniture. Once my step-father got her up briefly, but he had to really give a lot of encouragement, and she's never done it again since.


----------



## TGKvr

It's just a hard switch going from a no dogs on the furniture household to "come snuggle with meeee!" But honestly, it's a lot nicer for me to have her on the couch than for me to be on her dog bed. Which... is what I normally do. Her dog bed is huge and comfy... when kids visit they like to sleep all night on it! LOL!!! But I do love the bully snuggles, there is nothing better. 
Also our couch is like...10 years old? So it's not exactly like I have brand new top of the line furniture that I'm worried about getting ruined. 

On a different topic, can anyone recommend good sources for a logical progression of training? I don't think I'll be able to get into the next session of classes but I want to keep up with her lessons, so I'd like a source (preferably not video) that outlines a curriculum of sorts. We have all the basic obedience down and we work on that stuff daily, but I'd like to try her in agility after a while too so I'm interested to know what kinds of things we should work on in preparation for that, while I can't go to class. So far she knows sit, stay, down, come, wait, heel (at different speeds), around, set up, stand... she knows some tricks too (shake, other paw, beg, speak, spin, roll over) but as far as obedience goes that's the basics. I feel like I'm forgetting something. She knows "up" is when I want her to jump into/onto something. We haven't worked on backing up yet. I don't want her to get bored working on the same stuff every day, though I will still continue to drill her basic skills, so I'm looking for something new to work on that will keep her advancing until I can get back to classes.


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## elrohwen

Do a search online for agility foundations.

I'm in a performance fundamentals online class with my puppy right now, and some of the things we're working on are:
shaping (all four feet in a box, stand on a skateboard, etc)
perch/pivot - front feet up on object, move back feet around
mat work - go to mat, lie down, stay on mat
nose touch
paw touch
driving to a target - can be a plastic lid on the ground with food on it
going around a cone/jump standard - both directions
resting chin on hand
shaped retrieve of a dumbbell
fronts
finishes


----------



## TGKvr

Thanks! I'll do some looking around. Any good book recommendations? My internet is currently wonky so videos don't work so well at the moment. I just thought a break from traditional obedience would be fun for her, and she enjoys obstacles like fallen trees, barrels, planks, pretty much anything she can climb on (she loves climbing our wood pile). She has done the tunnel and the baby teeter totter as a fun thing on the last day of our last obedience class and she had no trouble with that. I don't want to get serious with it or anything but I feel like she'd be good at it and would enjoy having fun with different equipment, so I'd like to do an agility class eventually just for the hell of it.


----------



## elrohwen

"Agility Right From the Start" is really good, but if you are just looking for a couple things to practice it's probably more than you're looking for. It's long and there's a ton of stuff in it. There are pretty much no obstacles though. I really wouldn't recommend doing any obstacle training unless you're in a class. The most equipment you will see in foundations is a cone, upside down bowl (for perch/pivot), and a wobble board.


----------



## TGKvr

Well she's still young so no, I don't want to go crazy with obstacles until she's bigger/fully grown though I can't lie and say I don't look forward to doing things like the big teeter, the A frame, tunnel, weaves, etc. eventually. I also don't want to mess with building stuff to practice with yet, especially not before I know how well she will do with it and if she enjoys it. So I think the type of skills you list above is the kind of stuff I'm interested in right now.

Thanks a bunch!


----------



## elrohwen

Dogwise sells a book called "From the Ground Up" that looks good.


----------



## Eenypup

ireth0 said:


> Luna is basically on our couch 24/7 at home, even if the casual observer would say there was no room- she will find and/or make room.


The only times Bennie thinks she MUST be on the couch is when there appears to be no room. Guests over and we look like we're taking up the whole couch? Here comes Bennie! Trying to nap and stretching on the couch? Up she comes to find some room! Strangely she's often content to be in her crate or on the floor when there's more space for her, lol. But if she does choose to come on the couch and only one person's on it, she WILL be right up against them. Who needs space?!


----------



## CptJack

Holy crap you guys. I was just able to play tug with Kylie and Molly taking turns and CLOSE to each other. As in able to have the other one down/wait while the other one played, and then reward the one who had waited with the tug. This is remarkable for 2 reasons: Kylie played an enthusiastic game of tug, and MOLLY ACTUALLY KEPT HER BRAIN in the presence of another dog playing loudly and enthusiastically. Before now she's pounced and barked her head off in response to that sort of thing (and wanted to steal the toy).

I'm not sure who I'm more proud of, but I'm sure as heck happy!


----------



## Canyx

.......... SO. When's the next puppy coming home, CptJack?


----------



## CptJack

Canyx said:


> .......... SO. When's the next puppy coming home, CptJack?


Because it sounds like my current puppy is exhibiting a brain, or because it's been a whole year without a new one? 

Seriously? Not until someone here is gone. We are all of 100 feet inside town-limits but we are inside them. There's a legal limit that comes with that and we're at it. I don't WANT another dog, either, but recognize me. So, the legal limit is a good enforcer.


----------



## Canyx

Hahaa, I am just making fun of you. A somewhat backhanded way of congratulating you on your moments (patterns!?!) of progress as of late! You must be proud


----------



## CptJack

I am CRAZY proud of what I'm seeing in these guys, lately. Still a little bit 'tear all my hair out' once in a blue moon with Molly, but lately she's been showing what she's made of, too, and you know what? I HAVE REALLY AWESOME DOGS! Every last one of those suckers. 

(Some of this, patting my own back here, is I'm upping MY game in realizing what they're capable of and how to go about making it happen, but mostly it's just having a truly awesome group of dogs)


----------



## Remaru

Can I just say how excited I was when the mailman delivered a box of shiny new balance pods to my door Saturday? We had a friend over visiting and he and hubby were both teasing me about being so giddy over these things but I have new training toys to play with!!!!


----------



## CptJack

Molly figured out agility tonight. Not the obstacle performance, the contacts, the directionals and commands, but agility as a whole. I watched the lightbulb go off in her head and I swear I could see her saying "Yes! I understand this and it is AWESOME!!!!" I've seen her have breakthroughs for commands and behaviors, but tonight she lit up in a way I have formerly only seen in response to disc and ball stuff. She PLAY-BOWED at the trainer's assistant and danced and scurried around him. She ran with me and she bounced up to nearly eye level with me in celebration of finishing our little sequence (the longest we've done so far, with TWO contact obstacles (...actually with all the obstacles she'll see in NADAC). The other dogs honestly did not matter to her. 

She gets it. She's not going to be consistently good, I'm sure, but she gets it, and she loves it, and for a dog who started out behind a couple of barriers freaking out at other dogs being around and that growled when she met the instructor? 

My heart may have grown three sizes. Go, Molly, go.

And, yeah, I spammed that everywhere, but I am so, so happy.


----------



## trainingjunkie

CptJack said:


> Molly figured out agility tonight. Not the obstacle performance, the contacts, the directionals and commands, but agility as a whole. I watched the lightbulb go off in her head and I swear I could see her saying "Yes! I understand this and it is AWESOME!!!!" I've seen her have breakthroughs for commands and behaviors, but tonight she lit up in a way I have formerly only seen in response to disc and ball stuff. She PLAY-BOWED at the trainer's assistant and danced and scurried around him. She ran with me and she bounced up to nearly eye level with me in celebration of finishing our little sequence (the longest we've done so far, with TWO contact obstacles (...actually with all the obstacles she'll see in NADAC). The other dogs honestly did not matter to her.
> 
> She gets it. She's not going to be consistently good, I'm sure, but she gets it, and she loves it, and for a dog who started out behind a couple of barriers freaking out at other dogs being around and that growled when she met the instructor?
> 
> My heart may have grown three sizes. Go, Molly, go.
> 
> And, yeah, I spammed that everywhere, but I am so, so happy.


I'm really happy for you! That's wonderful!


----------



## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> I'm really happy for you! That's wonderful!


I'm still pretty happy about it. 

To be honest, I'm pretty sure I'm having some lightbulb moments with agility lately, too. Ironic since I seem to be doing WORSE on my end of things than I was a month or so ago. After a couple of years or so of learning all the behaviors and commands, I feel like I'm just now starting to catch onto the game and what the game is about. It's changing my dog training life, entirely. I don't feel like I'm trying to train the dogs to do _things_ or execute commands anymore, so much as we're learning to communicate with each other. It's something more fluid, faster, with a lot more give and take and a lot less control than I've historically had, or wanted- but it's a whole new world of possibilities. It's changing my relationship with all of my dogs, for the better.

It's also finally getting me to REALLY grasp onto what 'trust your dog' means and how it works, instead of it just being a nice theory. 

I don't know. I have a lot of thoughts rattling around in my head and I really probably need to make a separate post when I can get those thoughts in order, but. 

Thank you.


----------



## pawsaddict

Your last two posts made me smile from ear to ear, CptJack. Congratulations to you both. I'm so happy for you


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Great to hear about Molly!


----------



## CptJack

pawsaddict said:


> Your last two posts made me smile from ear to ear, CptJack. Congratulations to you both. I'm so happy for you





ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Great to hear about Molly!


Thanks, guys. It's been a kind of long six months with her, to be honest. She's going to be a weird dog forever, I think, but it's a weird I enjoy and I'm no longer doubting that she's going to be just fine. I've said that before, but every time I say it a little more of my doubt goes away.


----------



## TGKvr

I love it when there are breakthroughs! 

I'm looking for some tips on teaching "bow". I needed a new trick to put in her arsenal, something fun. Before we go outside, almost always, she does this down-dog style stretch. So I've been catching her at that time saying "bow" (and bowing to her for the visual cue) then saying YES! She seems to be catching on, and sometimes she'll do it right but mostly at this point she does the first part of the stretch perfectly, then as I'm saying YES! she plops her butt down then she's just doing "down". LOL Trying to hold her butt up and getting her to bow down just confuses her. Usually she picks things up in a day or two but this seems a little harder for her to grasp. Any ideas? Thanks!


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack, that is an awesome story! I'm so happy for you guys!


----------



## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> I love it when there are breakthroughs!
> 
> I'm looking for some tips on teaching "bow". I needed a new trick to put in her arsenal, something fun. Before we go outside, almost always, she does this down-dog style stretch. So I've been catching her at that time saying "bow" (and bowing to her for the visual cue) then saying YES! She seems to be catching on, and sometimes she'll do it right but mostly at this point she does the first part of the stretch perfectly, then as I'm saying YES! she plops her butt down then she's just doing "down". LOL Trying to hold her butt up and getting her to bow down just confuses her. Usually she picks things up in a day or two but this seems a little harder for her to grasp. Any ideas? Thanks!


I've always had a very very hard time capturing behaviors. Watson used to stand up on his hind legs to look at the bunnies, and I put it on cue, but he would only do it in the same room, while I was sitting in the same chair, where he could see the bunnies. He had a much harder time generalizing it because the only cue from me was verbal, vs some sort of body language/hand signal that comes naturally from training most tricks. In my case, I had to set him up at another barrier with the bunnies on one side and give my cue, and he thought about it, and thought about it, and then did the trick. After he generalized it to one new location it was easy, but that first leap was very hard for him and took some creativity from me.

Basically, once you say "yes", the behavior is done, so she can put her butt down or stand up or do whatever she likes. If you have a different marker, like "good" that means "keep doing what you're doing" you could try that. Otherwise if it were me, I would say the verbal cue as she starts to go down, and try to drag out the time before I say "yes" to see if she will hold her butt up in the air longer. You could also try luring it from scratch, using the same cue word, and see if she puts the two things together for the complete behavior.


----------



## CptJack

Yeah, it's important to realize that the 'click' (or marker) means 'you've done what I wanted, you will be treated now', so it's important to withhold that to build duration. I would also try luring from scratch with the exception of maybe using a different cue word - a lot of dogs have trouble with the down and bow because they kind of sound similar so 'curtesy' or whatever works better. 

Thanks, Elrohwen, by the way. I think we're both getting the hang of some things. Agility aside, I can finally mostly figure out/know when a toy reward works better than food for us (and vice versa). Which I never expected to be such a pain, but there it is.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

I got Kairi to sit while screaming at a Squirrel. I let her move closer as she "chilled" for a second and stopped yanking. Then she SAT and looked at me.. realizing that the game was the same as It'sYerChoice kinda deal. 

It doesn't seem like a big deal.. but YES IT IS. My dog heard me say something to her and listened in the presence of a squirrel and that is a miracle. I rewarded her by releasing her go after it.. which seems counter productive but that is the only reward she is going to care about getting at this point. I'll take it. 

elrohwen - How is Hazel doing?!


----------



## CptJack

That sure as heck seems like a HUGE deal to me! She's thinking and she's *understanding* what she needs to do and responding, and that is so, so enormous! Congrats!


----------



## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> elrohwen - How is Hazel doing?!


Hazel is really good! She starts Basic Obedience this week, which is basically the same exercises as puppy class but with the big dogs. I hope she doesn't turn into a rotten teenager because right now she's pretty perfect. She isn't super into other dogs or the environment, both things that Watson and I have really struggled with. The environment part might change, since she's still too little for much prey or hunt drive (I don't think Watson's kicked in until 5-6 months) but I'm loving it right now. She will easily redirect from just about anything and turn her focus back to me.

We went on vacation last week with 5 adult humans, a 1 year old baby, 2 adult dogs, and the puppy, and she did so well. She was really calm and relaxed in every new place we visited. Most surprisingly she was excellent with the 1 year old. Unlike the adult dogs she actually enjoyed interacting with him, and she never knocking him over or nipped him. I know that puppies plus toddlers are usually a terrible idea but she was so appropriate the whole time.

I've been neglecting her training I think. I did a lot more shaping sessions and things with Watson when he was small, but it's harder with two of them because Watson gets upset if I do things without him. As far as basic manners go though she's pretty perfect on her own. Even came with LLW basically pre-programmed!


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

elrohwen said:


> Hazel is really good! She starts Basic Obedience this week, which is basically the same exercises as puppy class but with the big dogs. I hope she doesn't turn into a rotten teenager because right now she's pretty perfect. She isn't super into other dogs or the environment, both things that Watson and I have really struggled with. The environment part might change, since she's still too little for much prey or hunt drive (I don't think Watson's kicked in until 5-6 months) but I'm loving it right now. She will easily redirect from just about anything and turn her focus back to me.
> 
> We went on vacation last week with 5 adult humans, a 1 year old baby, 2 adult dogs, and the puppy, and she did so well. She was really calm and relaxed in every new place we visited. Most surprisingly she was excellent with the 1 year old. Unlike the adult dogs she actually enjoyed interacting with him, and she never knocking him over or nipped him. I know that puppies plus toddlers are usually a terrible idea but she was so appropriate the whole time.
> 
> I've been neglecting her training I think. I did a lot more shaping sessions and things with Watson when he was small, but it's harder with two of them because Watson gets upset if I do things without him. As far as basic manners go though she's pretty perfect on her own. Even came with LLW basically pre-programmed!


That's GREAT to hear! She sounds like an awesome little pup!


----------



## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> That's GREAT to hear! She sounds like an awesome little pup!


She is really great! So easy! The other puppy owners are complaining about how difficult their pups are and I'm not sure if I got lucky, or if I just click with her, or if I'm just a better trainer and this stuff comes easier for me. She was one of the wildest puppies in the litter so I don't think it's that I got a laid back one.

Here's the last video for our Fenzi class that I shot this morning. So big! And I still love that crazy tail:


----------



## Flaming

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I rewarded her by releasing her go after it.. which seems counter productive but that is the only reward she is going to care about getting at this point. I'll take it.


premac principle. I use it on occasion, works so much better than food rewards for Vitae.


----------



## elrohwen

Obedience classes get better and better! We're doing an invite only Fun & Games class for a few weeks. Basically obedience stuff but in game format. There are some people we've seen around the training facility forever, but there are also some new faces. Some look like they moved up from more basic classes with younger dogs, and some might just be new to the training facility. Anyway, for the first time Watson was one of the most impressive dogs there and I was so proud of all the work we've done.

Ok, so he shrieked and cried for most of the class, and was super wiggly and fussy on every sit at heel ("why aren't we mooooving! this is so boooring!"). But we played a game where everybody follows the leader around, and when the music stops the leader picks a behavior and everyone has to go down the line and do it to the best of their dog's ability. Most people chose rally signs, like call front/finish left, stand-stay and walk around dog, etc. Watson nailed every behavior with style. I had multiple people asking about his swing finish and being impressed with him. He may be a nutcase, but it felt so good to be "advanced" and impress the new people, instead of being the delinquents of the class.


----------



## Shep

elrohwen said:


> She is really great! So easy! The other puppy owners are complaining about how difficult their pups are and I'm not sure if I got lucky, or if I just click with her, or if I'm just a better trainer and this stuff comes easier for me.



You're a better trainer.


----------



## MrsBoats

Shep said:


> You're a better trainer.



^^^ Ditto.


----------



## elrohwen

Shep said:


> You're a better trainer.





MrsBoats said:


> ^^^ Ditto.


Thanks!

Many of these people have had multiple Welshies, so you would think they knew what they were getting into. The older couple who has my favorite puppy in the litter (the one I would have picked if it weren't for some reasonably significant structural faults) said that they had a trainer out who said she was "dominant" and an "alpha". What? Is this the same puppy who was extremely handler oriented and fun at 7.5 weeks? I'm assuming "alpha" is this trainer's code for "normal puppy with no training", but it sounds more impressive and brings in the big bucks.

I'm excited to introduce Hazel to one of the trainers at the place we go. She has always thought Watson was a nutcase and I think she'll be pleasantly surprised by Hazel. Watson gets so easily overstimulated by things and I remember walking him an hour before puppy classes even at 4 months to keep him manageable. Hazel is just so relaxed in class, but also ready to go whenever. I'm sure I'm a better trainer now, but she's also pretty easy. I don't envy the people who got the hooligan boy puppies from Watson's litter - I can imagine what they are going through!


----------



## CptJack

Molly play bowed at another dog in agility class tonight. She also had a dog run into her face and she did... not a blessed thing. Not ideal, scared the crap out of people but she didn't do a thing except look at me... and then spend the rest of the class wanting to play with the dog, but *still*.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

I love seeing everyone's progress. It is great to celebrate the seemingly -small- stuff. 

While I'm not sure how effective Susan Garrets stuff as a whole is in some real life situations.. I will say that doing this recallers really has made some kind of "aha" moments for both Kairi and I. For me as a trainer.. I realized how serious or not serious at all I was taking the regular non-agility training. It was a chore and honestly pretty frustrating. But.. this recallers has definitely helped me turn it into a game that Kairi and I are really enjoying. All of our boring training will definitely be made more fun from now on. 

We are mostly working with IYC to work toward no more sniffies/picking up random food in pet stores and MOSTLY agility. Her biggest issue in our practice trial was "OMG SMELL THINGS!" She is making outstanding progress at home. We are to a point where I can put cookies in between her cavalettis and she will still walk them, ignoring the food. Even just 2 weeks ago.. there was no way. I never knew how to really work on something like that until that light bulb came on with recallers. Duuhhhr me.


----------



## elrohwen

I signed up for the free Recallers but haven't really looked at it yet. I'm bad! Hopefully they don't pull everything off line before I get a chance. I have seen most of the games through from a nice person who shared some notes with me. Lots of good stuff, though I don't see a lot of real world application either if I can't control the whole environment outside.

I also still have a really hard time getting through her sales pitch to the meat of it. In the materials that I have, there is a lot of wording that is not necessary and makes it tedious to read. Or it's stuff that I already do, but she comes up with all of the cutesy names and then I have to figure out which exercise she is really talking about.


----------



## CptJack

I don't know what to do with Molly.

We've got one more group class that we can go to, starting 8-25. She's signed up for it, and it's with the same group of dogs she's been with and is now pretty well used to. After that, I have no idea what to do with her. Figuring out opportunities for training is one thing, but at this point my primary concern is the reactivity stuff. Like... I don't know how to transition her from classes with a handful of other dogs she knows (now) to a setting with a bunch of unknown dogs and people. I have as long as it takes to do that, but I don't have even the glimmer of an idea for a plan to get there. 

Except, of course, continuing to build value and love of agility, focus on teaching her that well, and hope that it offsets some of her reactivity when faced with a lot of strange dogs and bunch of strange people. Take her to a trial or three as a spectator, of course, but that's ALL the access I have for that and they're 3ish months apart. I don't HAVE situations that make her likely to react anywhere else. Not that I can think of, anyway. 

It's *stressing me*, y'all.


----------



## Canyx

My training goals might kill me.


----------



## HVani

Seemingly minor but we are on day 6, without an accident in the house. Before this streak the longest she had made it was 2 days. I've been working with her and it seems to be clicking. She still goes on the patio(She was raised in a kennel on concrete) but at least it's outside.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I don't know what to do with Molly.
> 
> We've got one more group class that we can go to, starting 8-25. She's signed up for it, and it's with the same group of dogs she's been with and is now pretty well used to. After that, I have no idea what to do with her. Figuring out opportunities for training is one thing, but at this point my primary concern is the reactivity stuff. Like... I don't know how to transition her from classes with a handful of other dogs she knows (now) to a setting with a bunch of unknown dogs and people. I have as long as it takes to do that, but I don't have even the glimmer of an idea for a plan to get there.
> 
> Except, of course, continuing to build value and love of agility, focus on teaching her that well, and hope that it offsets some of her reactivity when faced with a lot of strange dogs and bunch of strange people. Take her to a trial or three as a spectator, of course, but that's ALL the access I have for that and they're 3ish months apart. I don't HAVE situations that make her likely to react anywhere else. Not that I can think of, anyway.
> 
> It's *stressing me*, y'all.


Watson always struggles with a new class. Even if he's seen many of the dogs before in various classes, the fact that the group is re-shuffled is hard for him to deal with. I just keep putting him in classes and keep dealing with it. It hasn't been easy, but now at 3 years old he's able to go into a new class and work. He still flails and shrieks and gets overly excited about dogs trying to check them out, but he is manageable and mostly able to work when asked. I don't think there's any solution to the problem except to tackle it head on and kind of start all over with each class. 

In something like agility that's hard for us, because every class introduces something new and I might blow through two classes just trying to settle him down and not learn much. But at this point in obedience he's done all of the stuff and we're fine tuning and reducing reward schedules and stuff and I can use the first class or two to focus on him being a butthead and not worry about missing new material. If you are comfortable training a lot of basic agility stuff at home and can give her the skills she needs there, then you should be fine even if she needs time to resettle around the new dogs.


----------



## taquitos

Canyx said:


> My training goals might kill me.


Haha you're so petite and Soro is so big!! You guys really amaze me each time I see all the tricks you've taught him!



HVani said:


> Seemingly minor but we are on day 6, without an accident in the house. Before this streak the longest she had made it was 2 days. I've been working with her and it seems to be clicking. She still goes on the patio(She was raised in a kennel on concrete) but at least it's outside.


Yay!!! That's awesome  It took me months to housetrain Meeko (ex puppy mill dog + two breeds NOTORIOUS for being hard to housetrain lol). Just keep at it!!


----------



## CptJack

I'm actually not worried about her agility skills. She lost some of the first agility foundation's class because things like recalling past the other dogs and parallel walking weren't going to happen then, but otherwise she's done most of the work and even do it in class. We do work on it at home, but even when she's insane she's willing to work. She's also at the point now where she doesn't really care about the other dogs in class, and she's moving on to the more advanced level with those dogs. I could limp her around a novice agility course now, even with dogs and distractions around (with lots and lots of faults for off courses). 

I just know two things to the bottom of my toes: 
If I can get her through some trials and she knows what to expect she'll be fine to do the agility 
and
She's going to be a nightmare at first, and my venue expels people with aggressive dogs, to include dogs who are lunging and barking at the ends of their leashes. 

and a possible third that I'm not so sure of but pretty?
It's going to take a billion years before she stops barking at exciting stuff. She'll stop *spooking* but barking? Doubt it. 

I guess I'll see where she is at the end of this next class session, then start going to the club run throughs with her as well as Kylie and take it from there. Agility's not the most important thing ever to me with her, just to gauge how bad she's going to be at a new place with new dogs. Run Kylie and do the practice then grab Molly and hang out somewhere out of the way and see? I don't know. I'm not married to her doing agility, just determined to do the best I can with it.


----------



## elrohwen

Hazel started basic obedience last night. It's mostly the same stuff as PuppyK, but things get a little harder and move a little faster. It's for any age dog, but I think everybody in the class is under a year old for the most part. 

Most of the dogs are actually really good and quiet, except for one. I have to assume he's an AussieDoodle. He looks like an Old English Sheepdog or Beardie puppy, but he's merle. He spent the whole time barking at everyone, even when he was behind a barrier (which he knocked over a million times). His owner is so clueless. As we were trying to leave his owner stood basically in front of the door and just stared into space, so there was a huge line of dogs and people trying to leave (of course none of them very well trained either, since it's a basic class, so it was a bit chaotic). People started to go around her and she finally realized she was blocking the flow when Hazel and I were the next to go. So she starts walking and the dog keeps sitting and the collar slips right off. She was 5-10ft away before she realized, and the dog realized at about the same time that he was free and turned around to pounce on other dogs. lol This dog is going to be a menace when he grows up I think. And his coat looked like it was on second away from matting like crazy.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> It's going to take a billion years before she stops barking at exciting stuff. She'll stop *spooking* but barking? Doubt it.


It seems like half of the dogs at agility trials I've been to bark most of the time. So I don't think barking alone is a big deal. I mean, it would annoy the crap out of me to have a dog who barked non-stop, but it's not going to get you kicked out and probably won't even cause people to think twice.


----------



## Shep

I took an agility class for months with a couple whose field-bred Golden bitch barked constantly for an hour while bouncing up and down in her ex-pen. It drove everyone nuts, but the owners wouldn't do anything about it because the dog was INCREDIBLY fast and they didn't want to squash her "drive." Apparently drive equals insanity, obnoxiousness, and horrible manners.


----------



## CptJack

I'll be honest: I'm barking deaf, at this stage. I don't like the reactivity, and I don't associate noise and bad manners with drive, but I don't care about noise. Kylie is a dog who barks when she's excited/happy. If I shut her up, she goes flat because she's been corrected. She doesn't bark constantly or when she runs, but given the amount of noise coming from other dogs in trial and practice settings and the fact that she only has private lessons at this stage, I just don't care. 

And those other dogs are actually REALLY well mannered away from the agility field, and well trained and behaved on it - they're just noisy. I'm... perfectly fine with that. 

I am NOT okay with Molly being stressed out and unhappy and behaving in defensive and potentially aggressive ways that risk setting another dog off in a negative way, but if she wants to bark happily from now to eternity I don't much care.

**ETA:** Okay, no, I'm barking deaf for a certain level of barking. Flyball still makes my eyeballs explode.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Shep said:


> I took an agility class for months with a couple whose field-bred Golden bitch barked constantly for an hour while bouncing up and down in her ex-pen. It drove everyone nuts, but the owners wouldn't do anything about it because the dog was INCREDIBLY fast and they didn't want to squash her "drive." Apparently drive equals insanity, obnoxiousness, and horrible manners.


Yeah. Totally. Right. 

Drives me crazy. One of my biggest pet peeves: These same people decide to try obedience and don't adjust their dog's behavior. And then they hate on obedience people for not liking them.


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## elrohwen

I think my barking tolerance is really low. I'm fairly sensitive to loud noises and I just really don't like barking. Both of my dogs are pretty quiet except when they are very excited - I want to strangle Watson when he starts shrieking every time we get to training class or a park. And I throw Hazel in her crate if she barks at Watson when he has a bully stick that she wants. I just cannot handle loud repetitive noises without feeling like my head is going to explode. I don't mind a couple warning/protective barks or whatever, it's the barkbarkbarkbark excited barking I can't take. I do not understand how people do flyball.

I really want an Aussie but that's the main thing that makes me think twice. I've been around barking (I grew up with mini schnauzers) and I just do not like it.


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## Shep

I'm sure it's a sign of getting old, but I find myself valuing calm, quiet dogs more and more. This is one of the things that really stands out for me about working BC's. They have enormous drive and intensity, but one of the things you will notice at herding trials is that they hardly ever bark. They just stay calm, focus hard, and get the job done. Barking is not valued at all at BC herding trials (USBCHA). Then you go to an agility trial and it's full of lunatic sport-bred BC's barking their fool heads off.

Sorry, I know this is a generalization. I really enjoyed the little agility I did. But I didn't like the barking.


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## kadylady

Excessive barking is a huge pet peeve of mine. Which is why I work so hard and spend so much time teaching my dogs what is and is not appropriate barking.


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## elrohwen

Grey the ACDx isn't that barky in general, but he can go from a dead sleep to BARKBARKBARK if he thinks he heard something outside (some imaginary thing nobody else heard) or if someone walks past the house. It's just at this volume and intensity, paired with being completely random and unexpected that almost gives me a heart attack every single time. 

I love Watson's alert barks. He stands up first, listens (so I know it's coming), then one deep "woof!". Even if he gets into it it's never more than 10 barks, slow and spaced out, and it's pretty easy to interrupt him or stop him. That's the only kind of barking I can deal with. The excited shrieking he does is possibly the worst sound a dog can make.


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## CptJack

Shep said:


> Sorry, I know this is a generalization. I really enjoyed the little agility I did. But I didn't like the barking.



I was going to say, have I ever got some news for you Molly's breeding!


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Grey the ACDx isn't that barky in general, but he can go from a dead sleep to BARKBARKBARK if he thinks he heard something outside (some imaginary thing nobody else heard) or if someone walks past the house. It's just at this volume and intensity, paired with being completely random and unexpected that almost gives me a heart attack every single time.
> .


This is Molly and interestingly it bothers me much, much more than Kylie who just... barks? All the time? And has for years? Like I know people would kill her and she has improved, but she's a barky dog. She is a REALLY barky dog and has been since she was 4-5 months old. Mostly she barks because she's happy or because, um, you talked to her? Or because she wants something (this one is finally getting successfully curbed). Or because she got something. Or because someone else has something. Or to instigate play. Or to stop play. Or to 'tattle' on things the other dogs/cats/people are doing. Seriously, she just yaps. I can't even pretend she's not a yappy little dog. She's a yappy little dog. 

She also yodels, screams, yips, huffs, chuffs, and warbles, and mumbles.

Molly is dead asleep and then suddenly and intensely and loudly YELLING ABOUT SOMETHING, OMG. Molly will shut up when told - provided it's checked out around the house - and it's not casual. Kylie barks about butterflies in Australia for all I can tell. 

Thud barks reasonably and sensibly (because why not). Bug yodels and howls and makes weird noises when she makes any noise at all, but it's pretty sparing. Jack's almost silent.


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## Shep

CptJack said:


> I was going to say, have I ever got some news for you Molly's breeding!


Yeah, but from what you've said, she's not hysterical. Unless I've missed something, she doesn't just bark mindlessly forever. I think the issue with a lot of the sport-bred dogs is a combination of breeding without regard to working ability (sports ability ain't the same thing) and just being allowed to do whatever in the name of "drive." Some of it is genes and some of it is the handler rewarding speed, speed, speed at the expense of thoughtfulness. The dogs learn that an agility course is a place where they can go nuts and no one will tell them not to as long as they're fast. Hysterically barking dogs at a BC herding trial are not tolerated. And somehow, they still have drive.


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## CptJack

Shep said:


> Yeah, but from what you've said, she's not hysterical. Unless I've missed something, she doesn't just bark mindlessly forever. I think the issue with a lot of the sport-bred dogs is a combination of breeding without regard to working ability (sports ability ain't the same thing) and just being allowed to do whatever in the name of "drive." Some of it is genes and some of it is the handler rewarding speed, speed, speed at the expense of thoughtfulness. The dogs learn that an agility course is a place where they can go nuts and no one will tell them not to as long as they're fast. Hysterically barking dogs at a BC herding trial are not tolerated. And somehow, they still have drive.


No, she's not hysterical and doesn't bark mindlessly forever. I know the dogs your talking about and the lack of thought and control and it does make me a little nuts, but I also have a high tolerance for sound. Molly just alert barks when something worries her and for whatever reason sounds more or less like cujo while she does it. (She's loud. She is so freaking loud). And she alert barks at, um, a lot of things right now. Less than she did, but lots of things! She absolutely shuts the HECK UP when she's working at anything - and now that you mention it I think she's actually silent when she's working at anything (tricks, obedience, balls, disc, agility, whatever).


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## elrohwen

I attended a Control Unleashed class with a friend and her JRT. First of all it was awesome, and we so need those here.

Anyway, there was a sheltie there and the owner was trying to use the program to fix issues with barking. As soon as this dog was allowed to take an obstacle it was just hysterical non-stop barking and spinning and freaking out. I had such a migraine by the end of the class. I don't know if she initially encouraged it until she realized it was such an issue, or if he's just like that, but I applaud her for trying to find a solution to calm him down and get him into his head. After seeing that dog I totally know what you mean about the dogs who just bark mindlessly and hysterically all the time in agility.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I attended a Control Unleashed class with a friend and her JRT. First of all it was awesome, and we so need those here.
> 
> Anyway, there was a sheltie there and the owner was trying to use the program to fix issues with barking. As soon as this dog was allowed to take an obstacle it was just hysterical non-stop barking and spinning and freaking out. I had such a migraine by the end of the class. I don't know if she initially encouraged it until she realized it was such an issue, or if he's just like that, but I applaud her for trying to find a solution to calm him down and get him into his head. After seeing that dog I totally know what you mean about the dogs who just bark mindlessly and hysterically all the time in agility.


Yeah, even Kylie's not that bad but I actually feel a little bit bad for the dogs who are that insane about it. The dogs who run and bark at the same time don't bother me, but there is this certain speed and pitch they hit that sounds, I dunno, frantic and uncomfortable/unhappy to me? As in: If any of my dogs were barking like that, I think something was HORRIBLY WRONG with them. They're pretty rare around my neck of the woods, though, where as dogs rhythmically barking in time to the weaves are whatever are fairly common.


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## Laurelin

The issue with high drive motion oriented dogs being set off by dogs in agility is just something you've got to work through. I'm sure Hank will be over the top this weekend. The fast BC in our class makes him lose his head a bit but its a constant work in progress. 

I don't know any really barky BCs. But my tolerance is high. I lived with paps and Shelties forever.


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## Laurelin

Shelties bark while they run. . it's just a thing. My Shelties even outside of agility ran their mouths the entire time they were excited or running.


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## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Shelties bark while they run. . it's just a thing. My Shelties even outside of agility ran their mouths the entire time they were excited or running.


Well good. I'm dubbing Kylie a sheltie and being done. 

She's not really hysterical or constant though. She just... barks. Less when she's running but in general she barks. I think my issue with Molly being loud is actually mostly that she *sounds mean*. Kylie sounds ridiculous and happy and yappy no matter what. Molly sounds like she wants to eviscerate you, no matter what. Like seriously, she sounds exactly the same when she's facing off a bear as when she's trying to play with Thud, and that sound is loud, harsh, and kind of ticked off sounding. 

It's the dog equivalent of a resting b*^$% face.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Shelties bark while they run. . it's just a thing. My Shelties even outside of agility ran their mouths the entire time they were excited or running.


This dog was at a whole different level though. I've seen dogs who bark when they run (even a dog who barks his way through a rally course), but like CptJack said, this was to a really hysterical level where the dog couldn't think of function. I think the barking was just a symptom of being really overstimulated by agility.


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## HVani

taquitos said:


> Haha you're so petite and Soro is so big!! You guys really amaze me each time I see all the tricks you've taught him!
> 
> 
> 
> Yay!!! That's awesome  It took me months to housetrain Meeko (ex puppy mill dog + two breeds NOTORIOUS for being hard to housetrain lol). Just keep at it!!


Well she had an accident today but I think it was cuz it was rainy :/ But still 6 days is a really long stretch! Luma is my first puppy mill rescue so she may never be perfect. We will get there, thanks for the support.


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## taquitos

HVani said:


> Well she had an accident today but I think it was cuz it was rainy :/ But still 6 days is a really long stretch! Luma is my first puppy mill rescue so she may never be perfect. We will get there, thanks for the support.


How old is Luma? Still a pup or older?

And honestly it's gonna take months. Even now Meeko has an accident once every so often (usually it's going #2 in the AM and I'm not being quick enough lol). I'm sure Luma will improve with your guidance though ^^


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## HVani

taquitos said:


> How old is Luma? Still a pup or older?
> 
> And honestly it's gonna take months. Even now Meeko has an accident once every so often (usually it's going #2 in the AM and I'm not being quick enough lol). I'm sure Luma will improve with your guidance though ^^


She's about 5 years old. It's getting better and I'm happy with that 

My goal is to have her mostly house trained before winter.


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## Remaru

Lad is 7months old now and I am equal parts amused and impressed with how he is progressing. He is going through a bit of a fear stage at the moment, been a bit spooky when we go to new places (stopped in tractor supply after practice the other night and he was jumpy) and he is in adolescent "where is my brain" stage but I am feel very positive about how well he is doing. I know his brain will return eventually, he is maturing well, even with adolescent dog brain. What I find most interesting is the way he learns, how different he is from Hobs. Hobs knew many commands, it always amazed me how quickly he picked up a new gesture and how eager he was to learn. Lad is a little slower to learn, even if he is eager to please. I know every dog is an individual and it isn't fair to compare, it has been hard when I am having a bad day and it would be so easy if Lad could bring me that thing across the room or pick up that thing I dropped so I don't have to risk falling over. Even more so if I were almost a full year ahead in training and the training were complete, I could have an almost fully trained service dog now instead of essentially a prospect puppy I hope will someday make it. 

That isn't the point of this post. In the past week Lad has shown that he really shines in an ability to not only use gestures but verbal commands, use them together and learn new words for items quickly. Hobgoblin could retrieve amazingly well, it made my life much easier when I was in pain I didn't have to get up to get things and when I was dizzy I didn't have to risk bending over. I just had to point and say "got get it" and he did go get the thing I pointed at. Hobs followed my pointing, he didn't actually follow the verbal command. He was very poor at verbal commands and only knew a few. This is where Lad really shines. I was experimenting with labeling his toys, he has learned "bone" (I know really original) and "ball". Today I was able to send him to retrieve his "bone" and "ball", no need to point. Beyond that I was able to send him to retrieve the "circle" (a nylabone toy that is circular) which I have never labeled before. I did not point to the toy, he chose it based on the fact that it was not the bone or ball. We have been working on "left" and "right". I made a mistake pointing right but asking for "left" (I am bad at that) he paused and looked at me as if to say "are you testing me?" waiting for me to verify what I wanted. His grasp may not be as fast but he is learning and I appreciate that he can pick up words, it should make teaching him to find objects easier.


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## Kyllobernese

Most of my dogs are not barkers but Lucy has been barking since she was a puppy. Even though I have done everything I could think of to stop her, she just barks. When I enter the arena where we do Agility she barks from the time she walks in the door. The only thing that keeps me from "strangling" her is that she does not bark while she is actually doing the Agility which would drive me nuts. The only trial I had her to which was in August of 2013, she finally did stop barking by the end of the first day and did not bark in the two classes I had her in. I did resort to a bark collar at home which has pretty well stopped her from barking at home even though I do not use it any more. She would bark as soon as I got out of the Van at my sisters to practice Agility but one trip with the bark collar on and she has been quiet ever since.


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## GrinningDog

Boy, some of you guys would really hate Gypsy in agility. She's LOUD on the course. But she's also fast and focused and enthusiastic. In the beginning, I stressed and fussed about her barking. My trainers actually told me to quit worrying about it. I only correct her if she's barking in between runs, and if she seems overstimulated on the course, she gets a timeout.

It's funny because she's a fairly quiet dog generally (though, perhaps that's mostly due to training). There's something about agility she needs to shout about!


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## CptJack

Weirdly, barking ON the course doesn't bother me so much. It's the rare dog that barks the entire time it exists in an agility trial that makes my head explode. But even saying that - Um. Kylie lives to yap. I quit caring.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Kairi can be an excessive barker. When a dog finds barking self rewarding.. good luck finding a cure. I've tried so hard to work on that but. I made the mistakes of rewarding her for being quiet too, which made her bark more. That is mostly in the house when she is crazy though. Most of the time she is quiet and when something happens to set her off it is just difficult to get her to stop. Besides the reactive issues to the other dogs on the agility course (she literally screams) she is silent while running in agility. I do my absolute best to control her (seriously.. wayyyy better than she used to be), but honestly agility is just full of reactive and barky dogs. I'm over it. I must have a high bark tolerance because it doesn't bother me in the least bit. 

Oh.. and LOL at working bred Border Collies being non-barky. Ember is just as bad as Kairi in the house. She is, however, extremely quiet while focused and "working". Thankfully, she is not reactive in agility as of yet.


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## Kathyy

Ginger was really noisy when she came here. We don't care for yappy dogs at all. Over the past two years her barking has gone down from 20x a day to 0x as of today [rained so she didn't need to tell us the neighbor was mowing the lawn]. Part was anxiety at being the new dog. Part is likely we stay quiet when she barked. We call her in, close the door on her when she clearly is yapping so we would call her in, ask her to come out of the room and close the door but we don't bark when she barks. She is quiet to the point she chases critters huffing!

We didn't treat Max's noisiness like that and he never did stop mouthing off. I am sure he never would have stopped completely as he was so fearful but the barking when the clicker came out and when it was dinner time was all on me. 

What happens if you don't say a word when training your vocal dog? Do they talk back more or less? I know I have been much quieter with Ginger and use more body language than voice, most voice is praise rather than cues.


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## CptJack

> What happens if you don't say a word when training your vocal dog? Do they talk back more or less? I know I have been much quieter with Ginger and use more body language than voice, most voice is praise rather than cues.


If I am silent when training Kylie, she barks 3000X MORE, beyond all doubt. Some of it is that if I'm silent I'm not using a marker word (I do not agility train with a clicker - couldn't if I wanted to) so she relies on the 'YES'. Even if I use just that single word, though, she still mouths off a lot more when I'm saying nothing than when I chat to her. She doesn't demand mark as much as she used to, but otherwise, she's just noisy. She's not alert barking or fear barking, either. As in she does not bark because there's someone mowing, someone knocking on the door, someone walking IN the door, at strangers or strange animals. She barks to instigate play, she barks when she's frustrated, she barks when she's eager and excited, and sometimes she just barks/chuffs/huffs/warbles/howls because she just clearly has something to say (as in stares deeply into your eyes and makes weird noises). 

And it's not because we are 'barking back'. We're ALL really quiet people around here. I'll cop to having made demand barking an issue by giving in to it to shush her, but she's certainly never been yelled at it for it. She's never been yelled at for anything in her life. None of my other dogs are major barkers - Molly's barky and vocal, but she's at least alert barking, and it IS fear based - so I'm not buying it necessarily having anything to do with household or training.

Kylie barks because she's... Kylie and does. She has since she was about 4 months old. That's more than 2 and a half years of her yapping off, and a good 2 years of it getting her NOTHING. The only reason the demand barking got curbed, in spite of me never giving in to it, was because I started turning around and handing what she was barking for to Molly. I can't imagine anything short of harsh corrections stopping her from being a loud mouth and I'm not sure even that would do it.


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## gingerkid

Between school and preparing to move, been really busy lately. But I had to share: We were at the park this afternoon, on our way back to the car from the river, and Ida spazzed out and chased Snowball BACK to the river... they went over the bank out of view and I figured they'd come back into sight within a few seconds and when they didn't I panicked a little and yelled "IDA COME!" and her little white butt shot over the bank and back to us so fast I could hardly believe it.

Now, if I could just get her to leave Snowball alone.... (Any tips? Redirecting isn't working, and Snowball won't correct her, even though he every obviously doesn't like it.)


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## Canyx

Remaru said:


> I was able to send him to retrieve the "circle" (a nylabone toy that is circular) which I have never labeled before. I did not point to the toy, he chose it based on the fact that it was not the bone or ball.


Good boy Lad! That is awesome! And in my opinion, that's an intelligent dog... I feel like a lot of dogs would just go pick up any old toy they know they've been rewarded for and 'try' rather than 'think'. I know with my dog, people are always saying he's smart because of all the tricks he knows. But he is just food motivated and obedient; even with objects he knows the names to, even with all our training he will still sometimes pick up the item he 'wants' to be rewarded for bringing to me instead of what I specifically asked for. Doofus 



gingerkid said:


> Between school and preparing to move, been really busy lately. But I had to share: We were at the park this afternoon, on our way back to the car from the river, and Ida spazzed out and chased Snowball BACK to the river... they went over the bank out of view and I figured they'd come back into sight within a few seconds and when they didn't I panicked a little and yelled "IDA COME!" and her little white butt shot over the bank and back to us so fast I could hardly believe it.
> 
> Now, if I could just get her to leave Snowball alone.... (Any tips? Redirecting isn't working, and Snowball won't correct her, even though he every obviously doesn't like it.)


I think you'll just need to use Snowball as a distraction in training. Whether you need to tether him, crate him, or have him lie on a mat (good for training two dogs at once!), and then work on focus with Ida. As with any distraction, you need to judge the distance you begin working at and gradually move closer. And also, make yourself more fun than Snowball is for her. End your game with her before she loses interest, then release her to play as a reward when the session is over.


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## elrohwen

No real tips since Hazel has always been able to focus on food and training even if Watson is right there. We've done a lot of sessions where I expect Watson to lie down or otherwise stay out of the way, and I work with her. You could start with Snowball in a crate so she can't actually interact with him.


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## Remaru

gingerkid said:


> Between school and preparing to move, been really busy lately. But I had to share: We were at the park this afternoon, on our way back to the car from the river, and Ida spazzed out and chased Snowball BACK to the river... they went over the bank out of view and I figured they'd come back into sight within a few seconds and when they didn't I panicked a little and yelled "IDA COME!" and her little white butt shot over the bank and back to us so fast I could hardly believe it.
> 
> Now, if I could just get her to leave Snowball alone.... (Any tips? Redirecting isn't working, and Snowball won't correct her, even though he every obviously doesn't like it.)


Lad is super excited to play with other dogs, my other dogs and other dogs when we are out. I have done a combination of things to try to get him past it (not that I don't want him to ever play with other dogs, he just has a tendency to get really vocal when he can't play with a random dog when we are out, so much collie barking). I do leave Freyja and Lenore loose when I am training him, I put Freyja in a down but I let Lenore roam around pestering him. He can focus on me, he is pretty food motivated. I do this as long as we aren't working on a really new behavior. This helps some with focus but I think what helps most with teaching him not to pester other dogs and to call off of other dogs is putting him on a leash and allowing the others to play (particularly Magic, she is really vocal and wild when she plays). I keep him next to me until he is completely calm and relaxed then I release him to "go play". Playing with the other dogs is a reward. I can also call him back to me and return him to a clam settle next to me. I work on extending the time I expect him to sit quietly next to me while they play before releasing him but he always gets to go play eventually and I always give the release word. It has worked really well so far. I'm hoping it will translate to being more calm around dogs outside of the house. He is fine with dogs he can play with but has had a hard time controlling himself when the other dogs don't want to play with him. 



Canyx said:


> Good boy Lad! That is awesome! And in my opinion, that's an intelligent dog... I feel like a lot of dogs would just go pick up any old toy they know they've been rewarded for and 'try' rather than 'think'. I know with my dog, people are always saying he's smart because of all the tricks he knows. But he is just food motivated and obedient; even with objects he knows the names to, even with all our training he will still sometimes pick up the item he 'wants' to be rewarded for bringing to me instead of what I specifically asked for. Doofus
> 
> 
> .


Thank you I'm very excited about this development. I'm interested to see how many words I can teach him.


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## elrohwen

Sigh. I have to get back to work on Watson's over arousal outdoors. He was pretty obnoxious last summer but was doing much better. I thought he had grown up a bit and I couldn't stop talking about how good of a dog he's turned into, but now he's back to being awful again. Any new place, including non-woodsie places like towns or businesses, sets him off shrieking, whining, and flailing around. So frustrating. Someone called him an adrenaline junky and that's pretty accurate.

I had some people on FB suggest medication, and one say that she did not believe me that he was ever able to relax, based on the video I posted. So I posted a video of him being totally chill while I made myself lunch and she mostly stopped responding after that. lol Sure, he's a a dog who is easily overstimulated, but generally he has a good quality of life and isn't wound that tightly at home, so I don't think medication is necessary. He's also not nearly this bad the entire year.

Someone else suggested neutering. That's such a hard decision for me. For one, so many people say "dogs don't change after neutering, it's all about training." I would hate to neuter him to fix a problem and have him be exactly the same. It is also likely to ruin his coat and metabolism. If I knew for sure that it would fix my problems I would do it, but overwhelmingly people say that it's not a quick fix with only a couple people saying that it is.

So we're starting the relaxation protocol now. I've worked on it inside and he has no issues, so I'm going to take it outside for the first time. He's ok on our property - excited but not over threshold. The goal is to work through it at home and then see if we can do it at the park.

I'm also working with an FDSA trainer privately online. I kind of don't get her methods or think they will work (it seems like a bunch of shaping games) but I'm willing to give it a shot


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## CptJack

You might actually want to consider medication of the shorter acting variety or discuss it with your vet. By all means try training, but you don't have to have him on medication constantly or the SSRI type stuff that influences him all the time. There's a point where the dog is over threshold, and the only way you're going to get him to learn anything is to bring him under it. If you can't get him under it by other means, medication can up the threshold so you CAN teach. 

Not saying you need to do that, but I probably would before I resigned myself to a dog who has to be home to avoid being overstimulated. In fact, I kind of AM. Molly's too young for it now and we're making good progress, but you can bet your butt that if, a year from now, we've hit a wall and she can't be in places she otherwise enjoys without being freaked out I'll use something like xanax to raise her threshold enough to learn and for things like counter conditioning to work.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> You might actually want to consider medication of the shorter acting variety or discuss it with your vet. By all means try training, but you don't have to have him on medication constantly or the SSRI type stuff that influences him all the time. There's a point where the dog is over threshold, and the only way you're going to get him to learn anything is to bring him under it. If you can't get him under it by other means, medication can up the threshold so you CAN teach.
> 
> Not saying you need to do that, but I probably would before I resigned myself to a dog who has to be home to avoid being overstimulated. In fact, I kind of AM. Molly's too young for it now and we're making good progress, but you can bet your butt that if, a year from now, we've hit a wall and she can't be in places she otherwise enjoys without being freaked out I'll use something like xanax to raise her threshold enough to learn and for things like counter conditioning to work.


Yeah, that's true. I was thinking more of the daily stuff, but I didn't think about other options that are only short acting. 

It does really suck that I suddenly can't take him anywhere. Just a few months ago we were going out to restaurants and he could settle in a couple minutes and be so good. Now we can't even go out for ice cream without him ruining everybody's fun.

I think the season is a huge contributor. I think Hazel may also be a contributor. Things changing in his life probably just up that level of crazy. I don't want to say anxiety, because he's at the opposite end of the spectrum, but it's basically the same effect. 

Maybe it's worth a consultation with a behaviorist to see what they recommend.


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## elrohwen

Well, I started poking around online looking for veterinary behaviorists and found one who does evals at a clinic in my town. Doesn't get more convenient than that. I'm going to set something up. I have a feeling the training advice will be similar to what I've gotten (relaxation protocol, working on relaxation in the car and right outside the car in locations that are triggers for him, etc). And I'd like to see what she says about medication. I'm also interested to hear how bad she thinks it is. I've always thought Watson was a bit over the top, but in a similar way to a lot of young sporting dog males. Lots of Welshie people have said he acts like a typical young male. But then people see his video online and think he's completely nuts.


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## kadylady

elrohwen I saw your thread on FB...interesting responses. On the topic of medication....have you ever used anything like Adaptil? My vet uses it at her office when Zoey comes in, she sprays it on a bandanna and we put the bandanna on her and it totally takes the edge off and she relaxes. My friend has also started spraying it in her young Aussie's crate at trials to try and help her relax there. Just a thought, maybe it would help take some of the edge off him and then your training could be more effective? Maybe not, but possibly worth a try before medication if you are leery to go that route?


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> elrohwen I saw your thread on FB...interesting responses. On the topic of medication....have you ever used anything like Adaptil? My vet uses it at her office when Zoey comes in, she sprays it on a bandanna and we put the bandanna on her and it totally takes the edge off and she relaxes. My friend has also started spraying it in her young Aussie's crate at trials to try and help her relax there. Just a thought, maybe it would help take some of the edge off him and then your training could be more effective? Maybe not, but possibly worth a try before medication if you are leery to go that route?


No, I haven't tried it! I'll look into it. I did try Rescue Remedy for a bit and it didn't seem to do anything. I looked at Adaptil once and it got mixed reviews (like anything) so I didn't try it, and then he got a lot better so I forgot all about it. It's worth a shot for sure. I'll order some from Amazon. How far in advance do you recommend exposing the dog to it? 

There were some interesting responses to the thread. I was surprised at how many people seemed to think he was to a level that was pathological. In real life I've met quite a few people whose young male dogs act exactly the same, so I figured it was annoying but normal. I guess it depends what breeds you are used to. All the Welshie people are like "Yeah, that's just how boys are. Give him until he's 5 and he'll settle down."


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## CptJack

I actually used Gelsemium with Molly for a few weeks of classes to knock the edge off - it helped. We've been without it for a while and she's been pretty good.

Extra eyes on can help. I think having in person eyes on helps more than online opinions. I also think that a lot of people, even professionals, don't really grasp on to the fact that what they see in a moment isn't the dog you have all the time and does not tell a complete story. 

Frankly, the next person who tells me I should have socialized Molly more is going to get my foot applied to their behind. Yes, yes socializing IS helping her, but it's not because I didn't do it before. It's because of either genetics or a really badly timed horrible experience or the interplay of both, but it wasn't because I didn't take her anywhere. 

Its because from 5-6 months onward EVERY new place she goes and every new dog she's met is reason to wig out. The idea of socializing is that the dog will eventually reach the point of generalizing that stuff doesn't matter. 'm hoping with continued lack of horrible experiences she'll get it, but meanwhile she hasn't. I've been working on it for close to 10 months. Actively. Constantly. STOP BLAMING ME, OMFG.

(ETA: Slightly off topic and ranty - sorry)


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I actually used Gelsemium with Molly for a few weeks of classes to knock the edge off - it helped. We've been without it for a while and she's been pretty good.


Oh yeah, MrsBoats recommended that to me last year. I think she said you had to get it from your vet? I never ended up asking him about it because Watson was fine by his next checkup. I'll have to look into that again too. Thanks for the reminder!

And rant away! You know I'm sick of people telling me my dog has horrible foundations and I've completely screwed him up. Also makes me laugh that the last trainer said Watson was the perfect calm pet dog but not high enough to do sports. HAHAHA What am I here complaining about? Being the opposite of a calm pet dog! So yeah, the things trainers see may not be at all what you wanted them to see, or what the dog does most of the time. It's like taking my car in for a noise it makes, and then the car runs perfectly fine once I get to the mechanic.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Oh yeah, MrsBoats recommended that to me last year. I think she said you had to get it from your vet? I never ended up asking him about it because Watson was fine by his next checkup. I'll have to look into that again too. Thanks for the reminder!


I got mine from a health food store and you can buy it on amazon. It doesn't seem to do anything too heavy, just ease things up a little bit.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> No, I haven't tried it! I'll look into it. I did try Rescue Remedy for a bit and it didn't seem to do anything. I did look into it once and got mixed reviews so I didn't try it, and then he got a lot better so I forgot all about it. It's worth a shot for sure. I'll order some from Amazon. How far in advance do you recommend exposing the dog to it?
> 
> There were some interesting responses to the thread. I was surprised at how many people seemed to think he was to a level that was pathological. In real life I've met quite a few people whose young male dogs act exactly the same, so I figured it was annoying but normal. I guess it depends what breeds you are used to.


When we go to the vet she sprays it when we get there and then within 5-10 minutes Zoey is noticeably more relaxed, less jumpy and skittish and the vet is able to work on her much better than without it. I know it recommended more for fear situations, but even if it reduces some of the stress of the over arousal...it may help you break through that barrier...? I'd be interested to hear what you think if you do try it.

I was honestly a bit surprised by some of the responses as well! Especially coming from that group of people. I mean, it's not like he can't function in the world at all, clearly he can as you have titles on him to prove it. Which instructor are you working with (if you don't mind sharing)?


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## MrsBoats

elrohwen said:


> Oh yeah, MrsBoats recommended that to me last year. I think she said you had to get it from your vet? I never ended up asking him about it because Watson was fine by his next checkup. I'll have to look into that again too. Thanks for the reminder!


I'll message you with the dosage as a spray.  Rescue remedy is only effective on fear based behaviors. It won't do squat on over stimulation because it's not a fear based behavior.  You can find it at Whole Foods, health food stores and amazon. I got it as a spray from my homopathic chiropractor I used for the boys. Then I started to make it myself with the pellets you buy and distilled water.

People can take it too....I took the pellet form on Saturday to settle myself down after I almost knocked myself out that rear cross on the teeter and I almost killed myself. My adrenaline was through the roof and needed to run jumpers 20 mins after that. Worked great for me!!


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> When we go to the vet she sprays it when we get there and then within 5-10 minutes Zoey is noticeably more relaxed, less jumpy and skittish and the vet is able to work on her much better than without it. I know it recommended more for fear situations, but even if it reduces some of the stress of the over arousal...it may help you break through that barrier...? I'd be interested to hear what you think if you do try it.


I'll let you know! 



> I was honestly a bit surprised by some of the responses as well! Especially coming from that group of people. I mean, it's not like he can't function in the world at all, clearly he can as you have titles on him to prove it. Which instructor are you working with (if you don't mind sharing)?


Right! Obviously on some level he's always had issues with relaxation in stimulating places, but he's always been pretty functional and it's something we work on. He's very aroused in class environments but can still channel that into work (except off leash). And a hunting dog casting around like crazy and getting stimulated over scents is really not that surprising. That's like saying that your BC gets aroused when it sees sheep, or a bicycle. Something to work on for sure, but not very shocking. 

I'm working with Jamie. I mentioned not liking the Prey Drive class and she PMed me and offered to work 1:1 for free. Very nice of her to offer! I'm still skeptical of her methods (not sure how shaping games in my house are going to do anything) but I'll give it a shot. I'm certainly not going to turn down one on one training with someone for the exact thing I'm having an issue with.



MrsBoats said:


> I'll message you with the dosage as a spray.  Rescue remedy is only effective on fear based behaviors. It won't do squat on over stimulation because it's not a fear based behavior.
> 
> People can take it too....I took some Saturday to settle myself down after I almost knocked myself out that rear cross on the teeter and I almost killed myself. My adrenaline was through the roof and needed to run jumpers 20 mins after that. Worked great for me!!


Thanks! We are definitely ready to give a shot this time - he's driving me nuts lately.


I've found one thing that helps, at least in classes, that I don't think anyone has ever recommended to me (at least not quite in this way). In between work in classes he must be in a down. I cue him the first time, but after that I just place him back down. Sometimes I end up doing it a lot, but over time he has learned to just lie there. It really helps him relax and recover in between his turn so that he's ready to go again. I think it works by removing the choice of what to do. He probably spends a lot of time thinking about what to do for good or for evil ("I'm sitting and looking at mom! I'm sitting! Oh but that dog looks like fun! I'm going to check him out! No, must stay with mom! Mom, are you looking at me?!"). By taking away that choice he can just relax. Basically the same as crating but I can do it anywhere. He's still too over threshold in many places to do this, but I've started doing it more when I can away from home.


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## CptJack

I actually need to go back to taking a crate to class with me for Molly, and next session I likely will. I originally took it to a class to make her stop biting my arm, but apparently that's not an issue anymore (one issue evaporated) but I actually think having somewhere to take some short breaks will help her. I'd just do the down (and kind of do) but I don't think it would work as well for her. Thanks for bringing it up. It's given me a good idea of how to approach the next set of classes we do. 

So, basically I'm stealing from this thread, too


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I actually need to go back to taking a crate to class with me for Molly, and next session I likely will. I originally took it to a class to make her stop biting my arm, but apparently that's not an issue anymore (one issue evaporated) but I actually think having somewhere to take some short breaks will help her. I'd just do the down (and kind of do) but I don't think it would work as well for her. Thanks for bringing it up. It's given me a good idea of how to approach the next set of classes we do.
> 
> So, basically I'm stealing from this thread, too


I think for agility, just having a crate would be by far the easiest thing, since turns are very structured and there is often crating area. I don't think I will ever do an agility class again without crating him in between his turns. In obedience it's trickier because we'll often be all out in the ring together, but then chat with the instructor about what we're going to do, or watch other dogs run through their recalls, etc. I could run him to a crate each time, but I can never predict what we'll be doing (since it's a "fun and games" class and the structure changes every week). Placing him in the down really seems to signal to him "You're off duty now, just chill out" better than a verbal cue ever did. And it's hard to flail and sniff when you're in a down. I started doing it in rally class over the winter and I've taken it back to our home facility. He used to come in and require half an hour to chill out enough to work, but now I can take him in, put him in a down, and by the time everybody else is there and we're starting class he's in a much better frame of mind to work. He also doesn't waste a lot of time throwing behaviors at me. It must have been frustrating for him that I wanted him to work most of the time, but then when he offered it on his own sometimes I just kept sitting in my chair only half paying attention to him. 

Yay for bouncing ideas off of each other! Watson's issues are different from your typical BC because he's not visually reactive at all (unless another dog is close and staring at him), but it comes out to the same thing really with arousal being too high to work. I guess I would call him scent reactive, and new places have new and exciting scents. He's so not visual that a rabbit will run right in front of him, he'll see it, and then he'll put his nose to the ground and try to track it using scent. Silly dog. And also amazing what genetics can do.


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## CptJack

Yeah. There may be some issues with carting her in this particular class because there isn't a crating area and as the classes get smaller there's very little downtime. The thing is, I can MAKE down time for her, just by skipping turns and letting her unwind. We're also skipping out of everything related to AKC only obstacles, which builds in some breaks, too. I just have to find some out of the way corner to set up the crate that won't involve other dogs rushing straight at the crate, and will let me get back to the class/in line without walking through all the dogs and handlers. We'll see what I can come up with. 

This is one thing that will be much easier at a trial.

Also yes: Definitely breed and genetic variances. She gets sniffy sometimes because she's a dog but she's way more responsive to sight and sound.


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## CptJack

You know, I just realized I started this thread more than 18 months ago, to talk about Thud's issues/support there. 

So here's the update on that:

Thud's fine on leash, 98% of the time. He wears a non-engaging prong for the other 2%, I tend to walk him on a traffic leash, but he's fine. His off leash skills have, in the past few months, become really, really solid. We had a few periods where we went to low distraction environments and/or a long line, but at this stage he's been off leash hiking, IN THE WOODS, with us without a glimmer of an issue. I can't take credit for that; Molly taught him that. I'm happy, anyway. He's developed an off switch. He chills out in the house. He's more willing to work with me and focus on me lately, and as of very recently is showing actual interest in training/learning. As in has instigated a short training session or two. 

Basically, it took him turning 2.5 and pushing three for him to finally start growing up, but he's making rapid, huge, strides now. Kind of amazing, to be honest.

Oh, and training goal wise, right now? My big one is to get Kylie waving on a verbal cue or in response to me waving from standing up. It's a weird one in that she's good if I'm close but if she's on the ground and I'm not she doesn't seem so certain about it.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Also yes: Definitely breed and genetic variances. She gets sniffy sometimes because she's a dog but she's way more responsive to sight and sound.


We did a tracking seminar and you start with using flags to mark the track for yourself, but some dogs get wise to it and start looking for the flags. The BC in our little group definitely had a hard time putting his head down and not looking for where to go. They were showing me things to keep Watson's head down and I said "Probably not going to be an issue". And it wasn't! Head down, dragging me along the track from the beginning. I wish I liked tracking more - he would really enjoy it. It just takes so much time and effort and I'm not really into sports that mandate being outside X number of times a week. I like the reserve my right to do a quick walk, get it over with, and then come indoors.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> We did a tracking seminar and you start with using flags to mark the track for yourself, but some dogs get wise to it and start looking for the flags. The BC in our little group definitely had a hard time putting his head down and not looking for where to go. They were showing me things to keep Watson's head down and I said "Probably not going to be an issue". And it wasn't! Head down, dragging me along the track from the beginning. I wish I liked tracking more - he would really enjoy it. It just takes so much time and effort and I'm not really into sports that mandate being outside X number of times a week. I like the reserve my right to do a quick walk, get it over with, and then come indoors.


Oh, yeah. I've watched Molly lose her ball and rather than sniff around for it, she is definitely LOOKING for it - and even if it's 3" away from her she won't find it unless her eyes land on it. She'll search pretty thoroughly, but she'll do it visually. I've had to recover things she just couldn't find because they were hidden from sight. It's neat as heck. 

She'd also just outright SUCK at tracking.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Oh, yeah. I've watched Molly lose her ball and rather than sniff around for it, she is definitely LOOKING for it - and even if it's 3" away from her she won't find it unless her eyes land on it. She'll search pretty thoroughly, but she'll do it visually. I've had to recover things she just couldn't find because they were hidden from sight. It's neat as heck.
> 
> She'd also just outright SUCK at tracking.


Watson will sniff for critters and I'm like "It's right there, you idiot! 15ft in the woods staring back at you!" Haha. If the wind is blowing the right way he'll stare in the exact right direction of a bunch of deer, but he clearly can't see them. We joke he's a T-Rex and he can't see them if they don't move.


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## dagwall

Jubel is mostly scents but he does use his eyes and notice things by vision as well.


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## elrohwen

Well, we have a behaviorist appointment for Saturday. The main things I would like to know are:
1. Is his overarousal something normal that we can work through, or something that is higher level?
2. Is medication recommended?
3. Is my plan to fix it correct or is there something else I should be doing?

Part of me feels like I'm way overpaying for someone to tell me that my dog is a normal adolescent male sporting dog, but maybe she will have some great insights that will help us. Either way it will be nice to know a professional opinion, rather than listening to the peanut gallery of online trainers and worrying that my dog is broken.

Last night we worked on calmness before going into training class. He wasn't totally calm, but I worked on not opening the car doors until he was quiet, and then I stood with him for 5min (he was still in the car) until the other class let out. That time to compose himself seemed to really help. He did still react at a couple dogs when they came in, but they were young and flailing and I can't really blame him for that. Otherwise he was quite calm. He's still by far one of the best trained dogs in the class now. Granted, most of the other dogs are just under a year so that's not some huge accomplishment, but it's nice to focus on the behaviors instead of him being an idiot. The hardest part was when we did this relay race type game and he had to be crammed next to the other dogs at the start line. He did try to visit a number of times, but eventually settled down.

ETA: The class contains two 10 month old intact males - a lab and a vizsla. Both are wild and the vizsla is whiney. Just like Watson.


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## TGKvr

We've been busy, and slacking off a bit with training. I really want to get back to classes (no agility during the summer right now, so next obedience class in line would be the ticket). But we are SO BUSY this time of year! Ahhhh. Also, my baby will be a year old this week!


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## Alla

Question for whoever could have some insights. I'm trying to encourage Porsche to stay near me on walks, instead of out at the end of the leash sniffing at things. I mean, I can simply give her 1ft of leash and she's fine, but I'm more interested in it as a build up to off-leash skills. 

So basically I've been pumping treats into her (I'm talking steak-like value) at my side, essentially feeding in heel position as we walk. I'm wondering if I'm going about it the right way, or if I'm giving her too much choice in the matter maybe? She'll take maybe... under 10 treats right at the beginning of the walk, and then go do her own thing until the end of the walk. I can tell her come, I can get her to engage with me, she'll work, she'll do commands - but as soon as I release her she's back at the end of the leash with no desire to stay at my side voluntarily. 

I wonder if I'm doing more harm than good with that strategy?


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## CptJack

You're probably giving her too little choice in the matter, and you can't rely on the leash to keep her in position. You can use what you're doing to keep an off leash heel, but the way to keep a dog in a close radius during a walk is to call them back into that radius a lot, reward them frequently when they stay in it (voluntarily), and to teach them a release that means they CAN go outside that area so you can bring them back or reward when they come back - and so you control when they tear off to play with another dog or explore (and it's important that they get to do that too, or there is really a lot more incentive in blowing you off than listening, because exploring and playing and running are FUN and rewarding things, more so than food). 

If she will only take 10 treats, then practice it 9 times, and release her to do her thing at the end of the leash. Start over the next day, and try for 10. You need to make it a voluntary behavior, basically, and have her CHOOSE where to be.


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## elrohwen

Alla said:


> Question for whoever could have some insights. I'm trying to encourage Porsche to stay near me on walks, instead of out at the end of the leash sniffing at things. I mean, I can simply give her 1ft of leash and she's fine, but I'm more interested in it as a build up to off-leash skills.
> 
> So basically I've been pumping treats into her (I'm talking steak-like value) at my side, essentially feeding in heel position as we walk. I'm wondering if I'm going about it the right way, or if I'm giving her too much choice in the matter maybe? She'll take maybe... under 10 treats right at the beginning of the walk, and then go do her own thing until the end of the walk. I can tell her come, I can get her to engage with me, she'll work, she'll do commands - but as soon as I release her she's back at the end of the leash with no desire to stay at my side voluntarily.
> 
> I wonder if I'm doing more harm than good with that strategy?


I don't think you're doing any harm, but I don't think you're telling her what you expect of her either. I would create clear criteria for what she needs to do in order to get freedom to sniff. You offering treats means she stays with you until the treats are gone, like a bribe. She needs to learn to check in with you on her own and stay in that position on her own before she gets rewarded with treats and eventually freedom to sniff.

But then I've never really cared if a dog stayed right next to me if I wasn't telling him to be there. My dog can sniff out at the end of the leash if I give him enough leash to do so. If I shorten the leash he knows he has to walk right next to me. That's good enough for me.

I also don't personally see any correlation between on leash behavior and off leash as far as sticking close. My dog sticks close on leash because he's leashed to me. Once he's not leashed, a whole world of other choices open up. I think a lot of orbiting behavior is genetic anyway. Some dogs are genetically inclined to stay right next to you, and some are not. Watson would make a terrible hunting dog if he wouldn't get more than 20ft from me, but that means I have more work to do to keep him closer off leash.

ETA: I agree with CptJack that you're not giving her enough choice to choose what you want. You're just telling her what you want, and when she wanders off she's allowed to do that too. But she's not learning to actively make the choice to stay near you if you're bribing with food or calling her back all the time.


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## CptJack

Oh. Yeah. If this is going toward off leash behavior, you're only going to teach it on a really long line with a lot of freedom or OFF leash. Same principal of calling back and rewarding then releasing for fun, but it's not ever going to translate to you taking the leash off.

And while I might not be an expert on much in dog training, I CAN tell you how to get a basically biddable dog to stick near you off leash  And it's basically a lot of repetition. The other thing that helps is hiding from the dog if they stop paying attention, but that requires a dog who finds it REALLY important to stay close to you. Also just plain turning and leaving (off leash) if the dog checks out. Again, assuming it's a basically velcro individual who cares.


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## ireth0

I agree with the rewarding for voluntarily checking in vs trying to keep her right next to you. 

What do you want the off leash application for? For hikes and other kinds of off leash exercise, the benefit is that the dog -can- run around and expend more energy. Walking right next to you would kind of defeat the purpose.


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## Alla

Hmm, maybe I'm not explaining myself properly. I don't make her stay with me while feeding treats. I give her the whole leash to do whatever (she's on a 15ft flexi most of the time), and she'll CHOOSE to stay for the first 10 (roughly) treats, and then she'll choose to leave. If I try to send her away while she's still under 10, she'll still be giving me perfect heel position with eye contact, which I'll then reward of course cause it's nice. She stops and puts her head down to chew every single treat while I walk on ahead, then catches up into heel position again if she still wants the treats. (This is going to be a pain when training an actual heel lmao, the stopping to chew with head down thing.)

Should I not be rewarding the attentive heel when I send her away? Our command for you're free to do whatever (which she knows) is "go sniff".


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## CptJack

The other thing that I edited in is that for the dog running, playing with other animals, sniffing around and exploring is hugely rewarding. If you don't release them sometimes for coming back, the dog's going to stop coming back. All it learns is that coming back ends their fun. You want the lesson to be coming back gets them a treat, a reward, and DOES NOT end the fun, more often than it does.


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## CptJack

Alla said:


> Hmm, maybe I'm not explaining myself properly. I don't make her stay with me while feeding treats. I give her the whole leash to do whatever (she's on a 15ft flexi most of the time), and she'll CHOOSE to stay for the first 10 (roughly) treats, and then she'll choose to leave. If I try to send her away while she's still under 10, she'll still be giving me perfect heel position with eye contact, which I'll then reward of course cause it's nice. She stops and puts her head down to chew every single treat while I walk on ahead, then catches up into heel position again if she still wants the treats. (This is going to be a pain when training an actual heel lmao, the stopping to chew with head down thing.)
> 
> Should I not be rewarding the attentive heel when I send her away? Our command for you're free to do whatever (which she knows) is "go sniff".


It sounds like she thinks heel is what you want, and she doesn't understand a release. You continuing to reward after you've released her isn't going to help her understand that she's free to go. The release is a command that she needs to understand, too. 

She also needs to know that there's more to walking than heel until she gets bored. So you need a cue to STOP that behavior. Sounds almost like it's just habit, has a reward history, and she's offering it without any understanding of the release or what you actually want. Sort of like many dogs offer a default sit when you're holding treats but haven't asked for anything. 

Your post here doesn't sound like you're trying to work more on heel with eye-contact/that isn't what you want in this situation. So don't reward heel with eye-contact and firm up your release cue by releasing TO a toy or food in other situations (you'll have to run with her and lead her with food in your hand or something if she's on leash) praise and reward for THAT.


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## Alla

Ahh lots of replies that I missed lol. 

Basically I want the off leash application for hiking. Right now she WILL blow off "come" more often than not, unless she feels the tug of the leash - then she'll come back running (unless she's completely checked out, then it's a moot point). 

So I'm not very sold on taking her somewhere off leash to practice being off leash lol. I've been taking her to the park recently a few times with the 30ft long line. She'll come back on it, but as soon as I release she TEARS off at a dead run somewhere and I have to cue her to slow down so she doesn't hit the end of the leash at a dead run. Which she still sometimes does regardless (and doesn't seem to care).

I'm not comfortable with taking her off leash hiking, even though I -think- she'll stick around. I've taken her off leash hiking only once, and that was my friend's property, and she had three other dogs who stuck close to keep her occupied and sticking close. 

I guess I'm just... I dunno. Every time I call her back to me (and I always release her back to the end of the leash), I feel like I'm just annoying her by demanding that she interrupt whatever fun thing she was doing in order to come to me and take a treat (and be released back to fun). At least that's now I'm reading her body language.


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## CptJack

My suggestion, with the full picture is basically this:

Work on recall. Work the daylights out of recall. Use a word you've never used before. Start in the house. Only use it to call her to give her food or something she wants. Never use it for bathing her, clipping her nails, crating her, or ending a play session. NEVER for anything but giving her something she is going to love. 

Then take it outside on a long line. 

Once you have it on a long line with her coming back every single time and it being rewarding every single time, think more about this. Definitely call her back to check her in, yes, but only to give her fun stuff and then reward enthusiastically and release INSTANTLY without asking for a single other thing. Then drop the long line and do the same thing with her dragging it. Also play chase games once she's out of the house and on the long line and more once you drop it and reward the HECK out of her for 'catching' you. 

After you have THAT think about finding somewhere that's safe to practice off leash. Somewhere fenced, maybe or whatever.

And don't do a thing with heel during any of these exercises. Don't do a thing with ANY other command. Play with her, pet her, feed her, but no other commands.

*ETA:* Basically, the only way she's going to learn to handle freedom is by having increasing amounts of it. You do need to stick close and work up to it, but she's not going to habituate being kept on a short leash with sticking with you off leash.


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## Alla

CptJack said:


> My suggestion, with the full picture is basically this:
> 
> Work on recall. Work the daylights out of recall. Use a word you've never used before. Start in the house. Only use it to call her to give her food or something she wants. Never use it for bathing her, clipping her nails, crating her, or ending a play session. NEVER for anything but giving her something she is going to love.
> 
> Then take it outside on a long line.
> 
> Once you have it on a long line with her coming back every single time and it being rewarding every single time, think more about this. Definitely call her back to check her in, yes, but only to give her fun stuff and then reward enthusiastically and release INSTANTLY without asking for a single other thing. Then drop the long line and do the same thing with her dragging it. Also play chase games once she's out of the house and on the long line and more once you drop it and reward the HECK out of her for 'catching' you.
> 
> After you have THAT think about finding somewhere that's safe to practice off leash. Somewhere fenced, maybe or whatever.
> 
> And don't do a thing with heel during any of these exercises. Don't do a thing with ANY other command. Play with her, pet her, feed her, but no other commands.
> 
> *ETA:* Basically, the only way she's going to learn to handle freedom is by having increasing amounts of it. You do need to stick close and work up to it, but she's not going to habituate being kept on a short leash with sticking with you off leash.


She's solid to "come" in the house. I've always used it to mean fun stuff, and always been careful to avoid it when going to do non-fun stuff. So technically it shouldn't be tainted. She always gets a treat for coming, and it's my go-to thing every time I want to give her a pizzle or a kong. She's very used to being released instantly from "come".

So I guess just more recall drilling on a long line outside, and some chase games?

Also, she doesn't check in with me voluntarily. Not on-leash during a walk, and not off-leash at the dog park. So I can only reward the execution of "come".


----------



## elrohwen

I think one key with using a long line is to never have the dog hit the end of it. If the dog hits the end every time and then comes back, it's not going to work for training off leash skills and you need a longer one. IMO, for most dogs 30ft is not nearly long enough. Once they realize the line is there they are coming back because they have to because there is a line and it won't transfer when they know the line is off. You can make trick them into thinking the line may be on by having them drag it for a while, and then putting them on a very light weight paracord line, etc and I know some people who do it that way. I ended up going to the ecollar because it's basically a way to have that long line "tug" when I need it, while having him off leash.

ETA: I also think that checking in voluntarily is important. If the dog doesn't learn to do that, they are going to have a really really hard time learning to come. Just in my personal experience. If they don't want to check in anyway, and haven't figured out that it is valuable and necessary, then they are going to quickly learn that they can blow you off once they're really off leash.


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## Alla

elrohwen said:


> ETA: I also think that checking in voluntarily is important. If the dog doesn't learn to do that, they are going to have a really really hard time learning to come. Just in my personal experience. If they don't want to check in anyway, and haven't figured out that it is valuable and necessary, then they are going to quickly learn that they can blow you off once they're really off leash.


Actually now that I think about it, if she's on leash and I sit down, she'll come and check me out once she's finished sniffing all the things. Then she'll basically give me her full attention and won't go anywhere else really, because she knows she's on a leash and she can't leave the defined area. Maybe I can teach her to check in by doing that on a long line? Or will it not translate at all since she knows she's on leash and that's the only reason she does it?


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## elrohwen

Alla said:


> Actually now that I think about it, if she's on leash and I sit down, she'll come and check me out once she's finished sniffing all the things. Then she'll basically give me her full attention and won't go anywhere else really, because she knows she's on a leash and she can't leave the defined area. Maybe I can teach her to check in by doing that on a long line? Or will it not translate at all since she knows she's on leash and that's the only reason she does it?


I think that will help. I use that same technique on Watson when he is off leash (somewhere with a fence so he's limited in where he can go) and it really helps him learn to engage with me while off leash. As soon as he disconnects I sit back down. When he comes up to me I get really exciting and we play or train. You can do the same thing on a long line. I think the important thing is that she learns to make that choice and doesn't assume that if you're quiet she can run off wherever she wants until you call.


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## Alla

elrohwen said:


> I think that will help. I use that same technique on Watson when he is off leash (somewhere with a fence so he's limited in where he can go) and it really helps him learn to engage with me while off leash. As soon as he disconnects I sit back down. When he comes up to me I get really exciting and we play or train. You can do the same thing on a long line. I think the important thing is that she learns to make that choice and doesn't assume that if you're quiet she can run off wherever she wants until you call.


How does that translate when she's not limited by a fence or a leash though?


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## CptJack

Reward history, and building value in you. That's the principal of most training, frankly - building value in doing a behavior and/or making it a habit, by use of food and reward.


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## Alla

Gotcha. So long line and lots of recalls, plus lots of sitting down and waiting for the check-in, then rewarding that and moving on.
Can do.


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## elrohwen

Alla said:


> How does that translate when she's not limited by a fence or a leash though?


Yes, somewhat. You are teaching her to choose to check in and rewarding that, and then you can let her go sniff again. Teach her that checking in is really important and well rewarded instead of always having to call her.

Look up the "Give Me A Break" game from Control Unleashed. It's basically this.


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## Alla

elrohwen said:


> Yes, somewhat. You are teaching her to choose to check in and rewarding that, and then you can let her go sniff again. Teach her that checking in is really important and well rewarded instead of always having to call her.
> 
> Look up the "Give Me A Break" game from Control Unleashed. It's basically this.


See, I did that today at lunchtime. I sat down, she sniffed at the end of the leash for maybe 20 seconds, then came over and took some treats. Then she sat down and eventually laid down beside me, mostly staring at me (with occasional glances around) - basically waiting for me to tell her what to do next.


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## CptJack

Speaking of engagement: 

I've been rewarding active, chosen, engagement for Molly in an attempt to help her cope with dogs and uncertainty. It is working on that level. 

It is also making her a nag. Guess I'm going to have to figure out what that balance is. Not something that's really an issue for any of the othes.


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## Alla

Okay so I got some news this afternoon that made me really mad, so out of spite I went hiking with Porsche off leash. (Yeah, I know, stupid. I took precautions, I.e. super high value treats she hasn't had in a while, a secluded forest trail with no other people, my phone number on her collar, and a reasonable expectation that she'd stick around based on previous experience at friends acreage and breeder's comments, who didn't put a leash on her the entire three months he had her until we bought her. But still, stupid, I know.)

She did super excellent. Did not want to lose sight of me, stayed on the path and didn't go off into the woods at all, recalled fairly well. I was most surprised at the fact that her best "distance" command is "wait" - basically it means stop and stand still until I come to you. On leash she obeys this command strictly after it is followed by leash pressure - but she did it every single time off leash. She checked in with me (strangely), she responded to "come", to took treats, she ran towards me with tail wagging. I was even able to recall her off a fallen log with chipmunks scurrying within. 

Even more surprisingly, she recalled best to "cookie!", which I only introduced today at lunch, and "what is it?", which is our LAT command. It also doesn't have a lot of mileage. But all the positivity I spent all this time putting into "come" was hit and miss. Hmm.

I did eventually leash her after she watched a chipmunk run across her path and hide in a log. Knowing her obsessiveness with the rats, there just was no way that I was getting her away from that log without a leash. She let me leash her without a fight and walked away without a fight either. Right at the end of the hike (we went for about 45minutes) we ran into a leashed boxer who was off to the side waiting for us to pass, and she took one look at him and didn't even bother with a second glance. She was that pooped lol.

So, um, the genes are there. And some training is there too.


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## CptJack

It's a day for success. 

Molly play-bowed *twice* in class tonight (to the same dog), sniffed another dog politely, and really did nothing but wag when I had to pick her up to avoid the chi wandering up to her. She was like a normal dog. She pounced STRAIGHT into the training assistant's crotch (sorry), tried to climb the trainer at least once and basically acted like she has no idea what not jumping up on people is about (I blame my husband....) but ran her little course, even with a cross, and was a really good girl. 

This is largely because she's been with these same dogs for 4 months now and is comfortable with them, but she ALSO didn't respond at all to the dogs in the parking lot for the next class and was just... normal? It's not like she actually IS, but she's at least learned how to handle herself in this particular setting, and to feel confident in it (and after watching her and seeing this, it is DEFINITELY a fear issue). We've still got work to do, but it looks like now at least we can work on agility and reactivity separately.

Oh and she won herself a squeaky pink elephant.


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## trainingjunkie

That's great! Sounds like a perfect day, right down to the pink elephant!


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## TGKvr

I just want to say that I don't think it's stupid at all to go hiking off-leash with your dog. Obviously you are taking precautions, and have reason to believe she's trustworthy. In the right circumstances and environment, it only deepens the bond with your dog in my opinion.


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## elrohwen

Alla, glad things went well! Sometimes you do just have to take off the leash and try it out. Obviously not if you think your dog will bolt and never look back, but at some point you can't work on off leash stuff without the dog actually being off leash. Good job Porsche!

And good job Molly! She's growing up so well.


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## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> That's great! Sounds like a perfect day, right down to the pink elephant!





elrohwen said:


> And good job Molly! She's growing up so well.


Thanks, guys. I'm pretty proud of her. 









She's proud of her elephant; it was definitely the most perfect part of the day for her.

I'm sure she'll kill it shortly.


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## elrohwen

Hazel made her first trip to the wine store last night for some socialization and obedience practice. Guys, this puppy is so good. She is just so well behaved and has so much natural impulse control. It's not a big deal for her to sit and wait while I look at a few different bottles of wine, even though I only started working on mini stays about a week ago. She is so friendly with everyone but ultimately comes back and focuses on me instead of being super into the environment. The cutest thing was when an older man asked her for her paw and she did it (I wasn't sure she would know what to do with a stranger) and when he praised her she dissolved into wiggles and did a playbow. She was so proud of herself!

I'll admit that I'm kind of terrified about her growing up and becoming a teenager. I remember thinking Watson was pretty easy at this age, but other people have pointed out that he was much more high strung and less focused than Hazel. If I could just keep her this way forever she would be perfect. And I am so so excited to do agility and obedience with her. I think she will be a million times easier than Watson.


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## Alla

Thanks for not lynching me guys. 

I have another mini question I'd love some input on. 99% of the time I walk Porsche on a 15ft flexi leash, and she walks great on it for the most part. The only piece we have trouble with is stopping to sniff every blade of grass. I use the command "let's go" to get her moving when I reach the end of the leash. She knows how long the leash is, and she knows when she is reaching the end of it, but whereas out front she will abide by that length and slow down herself in order to avoid running into the leash, the stopping-to-sniff and getting left behind produces no such desire. 

So what we end up doing is walk - she stops to sniff, i keep walking - right before I reach the end of the leash, I say "let's go", and she will sometimes run after and past me, and sometimes will continue sniffing - if she continues sniffing, i let her run into the end of the leash and apply pressure until she moves, at which point she run after and past me. 

Now, I'm not consistent about it either (and, trick it, I don't want to be, hah). Sometimes when I'm out for a nice stroll I'll stop and wait the extra few seconds while she finishes sniffing. But sometimes, when I'm walking with someone else or when I'm in a rush, I can't keep stopping, so every few steps is a chorus of "let's go! *pull* -walk a few steps- Let's go! *pull* -walk a few steps-" which gets super annoying both for me, my arm, my companion, and probably for Porsche too although it doesn't look like she cares one yota to avoid that pull. 

So, any training strategies to help differentiate the times when it's okay to stop and sniff for prolonged period of time, and when you only have the length of the leash to do it? 
I can give her 1ft of leash and have her walk by my side not sniffing or anything at all, but that's a last resort cause I'd like her to enjoy the freedom of the walk too, instead of just walking in a straight line.


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## elrohwen

If Watson is being particularly annoying about stopping and sniffing I will shorten the leash and make him walk right next to me as "punishment". Not sure if he really understands the correlation, but at least it gives us a break from the "let's go" - leash jerk pattern and gets him walking


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## Alla

elrohwen said:


> If Watson is being particularly annoying about stopping and sniffing I will shorten the leash and make him walk right next to me as "punishment". Not sure if he really understands the correlation, but at least it gives us a break from the "let's go" - leash jerk pattern and gets him walking


I've had to resort to that too, but she's not too great about not pulling on the short leash since I dont' practice it often, and I don't have time to train it while I'm walking with a companion. If she was on a prong she wouldn't pull, but I try to avoid having her wear the prong due to the reactivity issue.


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## elrohwen

Really what helps the most is to apply some leash pressure before he's had time to really stop and dig in to sniff. It's not something you can really do smoothly with a flexi, but as he stops and sniffs and I get even with him, I will apply just a little bit of leash pressure to get him moving and kind of gradually increase as I move past him. Hard to explain, but instead of a big jerk I can get him moving with a very light touch. If I wait until he's at the end of the leash he will brace for impact and it takes a jerk to get him moving again which is annoying for both of us.


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## ireth0

If there's a particular thing that Luna is VERY interested in sniffing and I need her to move (maybe I'm in a hurry or maybe it's gross or maybe I'm worried she's going to eat it) I do a "Let'sgo!Let'sgo!Let'sgo!" really rapidly in succession in a very high pitched excited tone and speed up myself in sort of a weird hop/skip kind of run for several steps until we're away from the thing a sufficient distance. 

Speed really helps for distractions.


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## ireth0

But really sometimes I just... have to pull her away and it isn't a big deal? She's on a harness so I'm not hurting her.

If I don't -need- her to move away I just stop and let her sniff. She enjoys it, it stimulates her brain. It's not the end of the world.


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## Alla

> Really what helps the most is to apply some leash pressure before he's had time to really stop and dig in to sniff. It's not something you can really do smoothly with a flexi, but as he stops and sniffs and I get even with him, I will apply just a little bit of leash pressure to get him moving and kind of gradually increase as I move past him.


Yeah, gradual increase in pressure isn't something you can smoothly do with a flexi unless you literally stop to do it. Which also wouldn't work as a strategy when walking with a companion.



> If there's a particular thing that Luna is VERY interested in sniffing and I need her to move (maybe I'm in a hurry or maybe it's gross or maybe I'm worried she's going to eat it) I do a "Let'sgo!Let'sgo!Let'sgo!" really rapidly in succession in a very high pitched excited tone and speed up myself in sort of a weird hop/skip kind of run for several steps until we're away from the thing a sufficient distance.
> 
> Speed really helps for distractions.
> 
> But really sometimes I just... have to pull her away and it isn't a big deal? She's on a harness so I'm not hurting her.


Yeah, but the speed and excitement isn't something you can do every few steps while walking with a companion.


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## TGKvr

I use cheese. It's her favorite thing ever, so if I know we're going on a hike/walk and especially if there's a chance we may encounter other dogs, I'll take some cheese along to distract her from her sniffing. She's a huge sniffer. She's pretty good with "leave it" in general, but sometimes her sniffer overtakes her hearing I think. So I just lure her nose away with the cheese and when she walks steady with me a few steps I say "good leave it" or "good heel" and give her cheese. Works for us anyway. She's starting to be a bit more focused now and slightly less inclined to distractions.


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## Alla

TGKvr said:


> I use cheese. It's her favorite thing ever, so if I know we're going on a hike/walk and especially if there's a chance we may encounter other dogs, I'll take some cheese along to distract her from her sniffing. She's a huge sniffer. She's pretty good with "leave it" in general, but sometimes her sniffer overtakes her hearing I think. So I just lure her nose away with the cheese and when she walks steady with me a few steps I say "good leave it" or "good heel" and give her cheese. Works for us anyway. She's starting to be a bit more focused now and slightly less inclined to distractions.


That's the thing though, I don't want constant attention on walks. I just want to teach her where the end of the leash is and how much time she has to sniff before she must continue.


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## CptJack

Alla said:


> That's the thing though, I don't want constant attention on walks. I just want to teach her where the end of the leash is and how much time she has to sniff before she must continue.


I'd just keep using the command you're using nad wait for her to get it. Or count down from 3 and then move. She'll figure it out - really. 

--

If we can work out a time we're both available, I think I'm going to get to do some focused reactivity work with Molly and our trainer. I am crossing everything I can cross that we can find a time to make it work. She's made huge progress, and she's such a sweet, friendly, happy dog when she's not afraid (no, really, friendly) and defensive. She just needs to learn that the way to get more comfortable isn't aggressive behavior. We'll get there eventually, anyway, but I would like some professional help.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> If we can work out a time we're both available, I think I'm going to get to do some focused reactivity work with Molly and our trainer. I am crossing everything I can cross that we can find a time to make it work. She's made huge progress, and she's such a sweet, friendly, happy dog when she's not afraid (no, really, friendly) and defensive. She just needs to learn that the way to get more comfortable isn't aggressive behavior. We'll get there eventually, anyway, but I would like some professional help.


Have you read the BAT book? I have heard wonderful things about the techniques. I have the book and have always wanted to try it, but I'm still not exactly sure how to apply for excited reactivity vs fear.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Have you read the BAT book? I have heard wonderful things about the techniques. I have the book and have always wanted to try it, but I'm still not exactly sure how to apply for excited reactivity vs fear.


I have read BAT and used a little bit of it. I'm ... going to send you a PM, actually.


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## d_ray

Jasmine's leash reactivity used to be excitement and frustration. Once she was allowed to greet the dog, she was perfectly polite and nice.

So the other day I let her greet a dog that she has met many times before and she freaked out and lunged and snarled at him. Caught the poor owner off guard and me too. 

Interesting that she is suddenly more leash aggressive than reactive. At least before if I knew the owner, our dogs could greet on leash. Now I'm not letting her near any dogs on leash. The good news is that she isn't as reactive to people anymore.


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## elrohwen

d_ray said:


> Jasmine's leash reactivity used to be excitement and frustration. Once she was allowed to greet the dog, she was perfectly polite and nice.
> 
> So the other day I let her greet a dog that she has met many times before and she freaked out and lunged and snarled at him. Caught the poor owner off guard and me too.
> 
> Interesting that she is suddenly more leash aggressive than reactive. At least before if I knew the owner, our dogs could greet on leash. Now I'm not letting her near any dogs on leash. The good news is that she isn't as reactive to people anymore.


That sucks :-( Watson become like that with intact males as he reached sexual maturity, but I would guess there's nothing similar going on with Jasmine except she's about the same age that he was.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Ember is kind of hard for me to read. She is very social and friendly with people. She will come up and say hi, enjoy pets and if I pet her too long and she decides she doesn't want me to anymore.. she freaking growls at me. At least I think that's it because sometimes she'll pull away, then jump back up and start play biting. She has also bit everyone she is close to in the face (this I'm pretty sure is more overly hyper play bite). It is -extremely- hard for me to tell when this dog is legitimately angry sometimes because she has the nastiest growl/snarl. 

Anything she is fearful about (mostly dogs) she tends to fear snap at. If you restrain her too much, she will snap (she has made contact, but has only bitten softly so far). We have been in classes. We have been working on this stuff.. but she is just something odd. She goes through phases where she is perfectly fine and understands life.. and others where she is just.. grumpy and snappy. I don't understand this dog. 

I guess that sounded worse than it is. About 90% of the time she is normal dog minus the crazy intensity and weird obsessions. I just get so worried she is going to be absolutely nuts.


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## CptJack

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Ember is kind of hard for me to read. She is very social and friendly with people. She will come up and say hi, enjoy pets and if I pet her too long and she decides she doesn't want me to anymore.. she freaking growls at me. At least I think that's it because sometimes she'll pull away, then jump back up and start play biting. She has also bit everyone she is close to in the face (this I'm pretty sure is more overly hyper play bite). It is -extremely- hard for me to tell when this dog is legitimately angry sometimes because she has the nastiest growl/snarl.
> 
> Anything she is fearful about (mostly dogs) she tends to fear snap at. If you restrain her too much, she will snap (she has made contact, but has only bitten softly so far). We have been in classes. We have been working on this stuff.. but she is just something odd. She goes through phases where she is perfectly fine and understands life.. and others where she is just.. grumpy and snappy. I don't understand this dog.
> 
> I guess that sounded worse than it is. About 90% of the time she is normal dog minus the crazy intensity and weird obsessions. I just get so worried she is going to be absolutely nuts.


Molly had that same kind of sharpness from about 6-12 months. She's backed off it a ton as she's gotten older, honestly, but she was *really* scary for a little while, there. Never into snapping but she was sure as heck not shy or slow in responding to whatever scared her. She's not 100% now, obviously, but she's improved a ton. Enough so that my biggest worry is basically 'can you agility' rather than 'can you get through your life without being put to sleep for attacking a dog or person', and all things considered that's pretty good. I expect her to continue to get better with teaching, exposure, and frankly maturity. 

I'd expect Ember to settle out in similar ways. 

oh and yeah. Molly is hard for me to read sometimes, too. She sounds ANGRY, all the time, no matter what. Scared, playing with another dog, aggressively lunging toward another dog? Same tone. Loud and TICKED. I think the intensity and quickness of response combined with the weirdness just make them a little hard to read. I actually said in the random rants thread, yesterday, that Molly was like learning dogs all over again because she (and other BC!) was just hard for me to read.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> oh and yeah. Molly is hard for me to read sometimes, too. She sounds ANGRY, all the time, no matter what. Scared, playing with another dog, aggressively lunging toward another dog? Same tone. Loud and TICKED. I think the intensity and quickness of response combined with the weirdness just make them a little hard to read. I actually said in the random rants thread, yesterday, that Molly was like learning dogs all over again because she (and other BC!) was just hard for me to read.


Grey the ACD is like this too. He and Watson hadn't seen each other for a while, and there were times they were playing that I seriously thought Grey was more pissed than playing. He almost never play bows, his growls sound super angry, and his body language is tense and upright. His signals that he's actually playing are super subtle. The biggest sign is that he'll start randomly digging the ground - apparently for him that is a play signal. lol It's good that Watson is good at diffusing conflict and has really good play body language because I could see other dogs trying to start something with him.


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## CptJack

Molly, thank god, does have some really broad, overt, obviously friendly/playful behavior and some really clear appeasement ones. When she's not ramped up too far/is relaxed enough to start with. Even some of that's a little weird - like her really lovey/dovey stuff is the submissive grin, sneezing, tail tucked and crawling toward you - before exploding up to jump all over you and give kisses - but she CAN be super clear. 

She just also has this level of arousal and reaction where I honest to god can not tell if she wants to play with whatever it is, run away from it at the speed of sound, or kill it. I can usually figure it out, but figuring it out is often based on what happens/what she does next/how the response develops. I am learning based on context and experience what the likely issue is (and that it's usually fear/attempt at making whatever go. away. but not always). In the moment, though, I swear it's just 'loud, crazy, angry sounding dog'.


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## elrohwen

Watson is very clear when he's reacting. When he is excited and wants to play it's a super high pitched shriek-bark. When it's an intact male or GSD that he hates and wishes would die it's a deep bark with growls thrown in.


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## CptJack

I'm not convinced Molly has vocal tone, frankly. I've heard variation ONCE and that was last night while she was desperately trying to get the instructor to give her another cookie. I had no idea she'd think those salmon cookies were crack, but she really did. I have NEVER seen her react like that to a treat in my life, but she hit the deck in a down and yipped (LOUDLY) about it. Who knew?


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## Alla

> He almost never play bows, his growls sound super angry, and his body language is tense and upright. His signals that he's actually playing are super subtle.


This is entirely Porsche. Which is why I can't figure out if she's reacting on leash because aggression, because play, or because fear. It's always the same tone of growl, same tone of bark, same raised hackles and raised tail. No play bowing either. 

I actually bought a dog backpack today to see if it helps at all.


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## d_ray

Jazzy is also super hard to read. She is the queen of charging other dogs but when she gets to them she dodges and gives a bark and then carries on. When she plays with her husky friend she tries to tackle and nip at him while loudly barking. Then when I was calming down about her reactivity since it was never aggressive she snarked at a calm older dog. She's also started reacting to cats outside and even noises while
In the house. It's better if I kill her with exercise but then she will out of nowhere react to something random. It's not the reactivity that bothers me if I knew it was just frustration or excitement but I'm not always sure.


----------



## Alla

GUYS GUYS GUYS RAT BREAKTHROUGH!!!!!!

So after having a discussion with boyfriend in which we seriously debated whether we are capable of providing our rats with proper attention and care, I resolved to spend 20 minutes a day handling one rat, alternating days. We haven't actually taken them out of the cage for weeks, just because neither of us wanted to deal with prey-obsessed hyperactive Porsche.

So today I came home, put Porsche in her crate next to the rat cage and gave her a large cartilage bone thing. Then I went to get Fili from the cage, resigning myself to 20 minutes of dog whining, pacing, and banging on the sides of the cage.

To my great surprise, she calmly watched me take Fili out, and then immediately went back to chewing her bone! Not a peep, not a pace, not even a fixated glance! Even when 10 minutes in boyfriend came in and took Kili out and we had bother rats running on out arms and shoulders in full view, she did not care!!!!!!!!!!!

Like this is crazy insane. I did not expect that for sure.


----------



## Remaru

d_ray said:


> Jazzy is also super hard to read. She is the queen of charging other dogs but when she gets to them she dodges and gives a bark and then carries on. When she plays with her husky friend she tries to tackle and nip at him while loudly barking. Then when I was calming down about her reactivity since it was never aggressive she snarked at a calm older dog. She's also started reacting to cats outside and even noises while
> In the house. It's better if I kill her with exercise but then she will out of nowhere react to something random. It's not the reactivity that bothers me if I knew it was just frustration or excitement but I'm not always sure.


Magic roars when she plays. She sounds so angry and aggressive. She is super physical too, throwing the other dogs around and up on her hind legs with her mouth wide open. She tends to have her hackles up the entire time she is playing but she is clearly having a great time and really enjoying herself. It is one of the reasons I don't like letting her meet strange dogs, she is not really socially appropriate and I know she is difficult to read, I'm always afraid other dogs will take her wrong. From experience I know that she comes on strong but she will give way to pushier dogs but her body language is just all wrong. 


Ok so I'm having a "sit" problem. It isn't a big problem more of a fine tuning problem. Lad is big, and he is getting bigger. When initially training him to "sit" I was just happy that his bum hit the floor. Sure enough every time I ask him to "sit" his bum hits the floor but he doesn't do a nice close to me tucked sit, he somehow winds up almost two feet away from me. I know it has to do with the way he is sitting down/the way he is built, but I can't figure out how exactly to correct it. I only care because it does make him take up more room and there are a few things I would like to teach him that are harder because his bum is winding up too far away.


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## elrohwen

Remaru said:


> Ok so I'm having a "sit" problem. It isn't a big problem more of a fine tuning problem. Lad is big, and he is getting bigger. When initially training him to "sit" I was just happy that his bum hit the floor. Sure enough every time I ask him to "sit" his bum hits the floor but he doesn't do a nice close to me tucked sit, he somehow winds up almost two feet away from me. I know it has to do with the way he is sitting down/the way he is built, but I can't figure out how exactly to correct it. I only care because it does make him take up more room and there are a few things I would like to teach him that are harder because his bum is winding up too far away.


I would just lure it from scratch and give it a different cue. Some dogs are built so that a tuck sit is a bit harder, but I think pretty much all dogs can learn to do it barring a medical condition. 

When you lure, hold the treat up and kind of out in front of him, rather than bringing it back over his head.

Here's a video I took for a class when Hazel was learning the tuck sit:


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## Laurelin

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Ember is kind of hard for me to read. She is very social and friendly with people. She will come up and say hi, enjoy pets and if I pet her too long and she decides she doesn't want me to anymore.. she freaking growls at me. At least I think that's it because sometimes she'll pull away, then jump back up and start play biting. She has also bit everyone she is close to in the face (this I'm pretty sure is more overly hyper play bite). It is -extremely- hard for me to tell when this dog is legitimately angry sometimes because she has the nastiest growl/snarl.
> 
> Anything she is fearful about (mostly dogs) she tends to fear snap at. If you restrain her too much, she will snap (she has made contact, but has only bitten softly so far). We have been in classes. We have been working on this stuff.. but she is just something odd. She goes through phases where she is perfectly fine and understands life.. and others where she is just.. grumpy and snappy. I don't understand this dog.
> 
> I guess that sounded worse than it is. About 90% of the time she is normal dog minus the crazy intensity and weird obsessions. I just get so worried she is going to be absolutely nuts.


I find a lot of female dogs are like this... at least mine have been. Nikki and Mia (especially Mia). Mia is SUPER particular. Mia is not friendly but with people she is friendly with she bites if they do things she doesn't like. She'll come up and want pets then bite when she gets pets. Not a hard bite by any means just snap and teeth on skin. To be honest it's manageable because she hates most people so most people don't get a hand on her and she's so tiny. She's never broken skin and it's hard for me to imagine she would. 

The worst is with my dad. She is very very very particular about the way you pet her. Flat hand ONLY or she will snap/snarl. Cannot go against the hair direction either. Well a lot of people like to 'scratch' at dogs when they are petting dogs. Mia HATES this. She will even snap at me if I do this to her. So my dad did this once not thinking and now Mia gets loud and angry and snappish when he goes to pet her sometimes. But she still gets excited and asks for him to pet her. It's weird. 

Nikki also snapped a lot and had a short fuse. She used to sound like cujo when going out to potty if you made her move from her sleep. She'd go walking out the door just snarling and snapping. I'm pretty sure it was the dog equivalent of swearing at me.

Hank is probably harder for me to read because he's so silent when he's unhappy. There have been a couple WHOA moments with him. He is happy and easy 99% of the time but he strikes me as a dog very willing to finish something and very UNwilling to put up with anything he deems unfair. I am far more cautious with him than Mia because I know Mia and Nikki were all noise. Hank is FAR more stable than Mia thankfully. But I don't read him as well. He's very happy usually or stoic. The papillons wear their emotions on their sleeve. Hank doesn't. He is more and more the last few months but it really has taken that long for him to let that guard down.


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## elrohwen

Private agility lesson was cancelled because the instructor is sick :-( It's rescheduled for next weekend.

I got the Adaptil in the mail and I'm going to try it tonight. Since agility is cancelled I'm going out to a brewery for trivia. They allow dogs and have an outdoor patio (plus I think the inside is dog friendly since they don't serve food). He's been to a lot of restaurants and things and was previously good, but I know he's been more obnoxious lately so this will be a good way to test it. 

I'm debating where to apply the spray. I could do a bandana, but I'm not sure I have one and he's never worn anything like that. I think I'll apply to a mat and ask him to lie on that. Maybe spraying it on his collar would help too?


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## jade5280

Remaru said:


> Ok so I'm having a "sit" problem. It isn't a big problem more of a fine tuning problem. Lad is big, and he is getting bigger. When initially training him to "sit" I was just happy that his bum hit the floor. Sure enough every time I ask him to "sit" his bum hits the floor but he doesn't do a nice close to me tucked sit, he somehow winds up almost two feet away from me. I know it has to do with the way he is sitting down/the way he is built, but I can't figure out how exactly to correct it. I only care because it does make him take up more room and there are a few things I would like to teach him that are harder because his bum is winding up too far away.


I will lure the dog by holding a treat out to my side instead of directly in front of me, that way when they go back to sit down they are much closer.


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## Remaru

I don't know, I've tried several different ways now, and I've watched him sit naturally too, when he sits his bottom hits the floor and his front legs go back vs his front legs staying stationary and his bum coming forward. I don't know if this is different than how Freyja sits and I haven't really payed any attention (I will next time I ask her for a sit) or if it is more the fact that he is so much larger than her that it makes him much further away. No matter how I try luring him he won't keep his front feet still after he figures out that "sit" is what I'm looking for. Either I completely messed up by not paying more attention from the start (possible) or I need to come up with a method for keeping those feet still. He is a very "flop as I want" kind of dog. Sort of a spread it all out kind of guy.


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## elrohwen

Remaru said:


> I've watched him sit naturally too, when he sits his bottom hits the floor and his front legs go back vs his front legs staying stationary and his bum coming forward


I would say most dogs sit like this naturally, especially larger dogs, but it doesn't mean he can't learn a tuck sit. The tuck sit requires more body awareness and abdominal muscles vs just flopping backwards, but I doubt there's any reason he can't learn to do it.

What doesn't work about luring? He shouldn't be able to step back with his front feet and still reach the treat. It's like training any other trick where they try to offer something they already know - you have to help him see that this is a new behavior that you're looking for.

I would go to some kind of target or platform. You can use a platform that is just small enough where he has to tuck sit or he will fall off. Or you could train front paws on a target and have him sit while his feet remain on the target.


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## CptJack

Thud is enormous. Thud learned a tuck sit and a sphinx down. Naturally, yes, he sits down and then walks his front legs backwards - or lies down by walking his front feet down- but it's very possible to teach them to pull their butt in, instead. You just have to not reward what you don't want and put up with some trial and effort on the part of the dog while they figure it out, if it's important to you.


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## elrohwen

Another exercise you can do is the scoot sit. When he's already sitting, put the lure above his nose and a little in front, as if you were luring a tuck sit, and get him to scoot his butt forward. This will help work on the mechanics and muscles he needs to do it.


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## Remaru

I think what is not working with the lure is that he doesn't attempt to get the treat, he offers behaviors attempting to earn the treat. If I start just below his nose he assumes I want a bow, if he thinks I may want a sit he just sits. The sphinx down actually isn't an issue, that is his more natural down because I didn't teach him down from sit I guess. But he sprawls all of the time which I will have to work on (some of it is just the heat right now, he wants to see how much of him can be in contact with the cool floor). I was actually wanting to work with him on having his paws on a marker (pod, chair, ect) and sit which is why I realized we were having an issue with tuck sitting. Otherwise I probably wouldn't really care. I guess I'm trying to work out in my mind how to teach him this and build up the criteria just right so it doesn't frustrate him and wasn't sure if teaching tuck sit first would be easier for both of us.


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## elrohwen

Your options are to teach him how to follow a lure, or use some sort of platform to encourage the tuck sit.


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## Remaru

He will follow a lure, just not closely if that makes sense. Most of his early training was done with luring, I've always struggled with timing for shaping though we've managed a good bit now. He just follows at enough distance that combined with his attempts at guessing what I want is posing a difficulty in changing the behavior. I don't actually want to teach him to grab at the food in my hand, it is more important to me that he not grab food than that he ever manage a tuck sit so if I need to choose between the two I would just not bother with tuck sitting. I will see what I can find to use as a platform and look at some other methods of improving his hind end awareness. He isn't terrible at body awareness but he does have some "rear end drift" if you know what I mean.


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## CptJack

You don't even need to have food in your hand to train a good, closely followed lure. No risk of a crossover there, at all. Even with food in your hand, the dog following it around and waiting for a 'yes' to take it isn't going to teach him to grab at it - it's going to work impulse control around food. If he's grabbing at it, you're not going to have much luck with luring, anyway. They need to follow it, not snatch at it - WILDLY different behaviors. And snatching at it is kind of a behavior problem regardless. Dog should be waiting for a marker to even expect to get the food, much less make an attempt for it.

**ETA:** you're also going to need a close lure (with or without food being in the hand he is following) to do much with ANY precision work or exact positions. Even beyond tuck sit, you need it for a lot of the body awareness stuff, unless you're willing to get into shaping. It's not just about the tuck sit, it's that if you are going to use luring, you need the dog to follow the lure closely. Guess work and distance will only get you so far with any sort of exact positioning.


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## Remaru

With Freyja grabbing at food has always been an issue, she has a gentle mouth but she is always hoping that the moment you are going to let her have it has come. Admittedly I have not done nearly as much self control work with her as I probably should have and she is prone to taking advantage. Hobgoblin was also pretty food obsessed so while he would always start out good by the middle of a session he might have lost himself. Lad is different, he likes food and he is excited to work for it but he just doesn't follow as close or grab as hard. I worry about building the habit though, it is an anxiety thing. I have to balance what I actually need to train vs what would be fun to train. I don't really need much precision work. Things like impulse control, basic obedience, retrieval tasks, he needs those. He doesn't need to be able to balance on fence or sit pretty. I enjoy training the tricks, I just don't want to do anything that may hurt him or frustrate either of us. I do have coordination issues that make it hard for me to always mark perfectly and sometimes even lure correctly while actually seeing what he is doing (far harder with Lad than the smaller dogs, luckily he is forgiving). He does follow a hand lure well, I use it for walking (wouldn't call it a formal heel but in heel position), stand, and some tricks which is good for me because then I don't have to juggle treats too. For some reason if I put a treat in my hand he hangs back a bit and while he follows he follows at a bit of a distance, not so much with tricks but definitely with more basic things like "sit", perhaps because he already knows them or because I have done so much work on waiting to take the food until he is told to do so. Part of the reason I've been using shaping for body awareness is because I thought it would be good for both of us. It is a little easier for me, I was having problems coordinating training him on the pods anyway and I wanted him to have a chance to just offer behaviors.

ETA: Sorry I sometimes have a hard time explaining things, like I know what is going on and either I forget or just can't get the words to come out the way I want and I totally explain it wrong. I also tend to over worry about every little thing, it is probably my biggest fault in training my dogs, that I worry too much. I also tend to know what to do until I actually need to do it and then I have no idea. Sometimes I just can't decide if I actually want to do something or not, like if it is important to me/our working relationship or not so I bring it to the forum hoping for advice but I know it would help if I could explain myself more efficiently.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack said:


> Molly had that same kind of sharpness from about 6-12 months. She's backed off it a ton as she's gotten older, honestly, but she was *really* scary for a little while, there. Never into snapping but she was sure as heck not shy or slow in responding to whatever scared her. She's not 100% now, obviously, but she's improved a ton. Enough so that my biggest worry is basically 'can you agility' rather than 'can you get through your life without being put to sleep for attacking a dog or person', and all things considered that's pretty good. I expect her to continue to get better with teaching, exposure, and frankly maturity.
> 
> I'd expect Ember to settle out in similar ways.
> 
> oh and yeah. Molly is hard for me to read sometimes, too. She sounds ANGRY, all the time, no matter what. Scared, playing with another dog, aggressively lunging toward another dog? Same tone. Loud and TICKED. I think the intensity and quickness of response combined with the weirdness just make them a little hard to read. I actually said in the random rants thread, yesterday, that Molly was like learning dogs all over again because she (and other BC!) was just hard for me to read.


I've got hope that she will even out as she matures. It seems a lot of BC people are telling me this is normal and even the dog snappiness normal as well. That strikes me as odd.. but it kinda makes sense too? Ember and I go back and forth on whether we get along or not. Today I looked at her and could see the beauty in her craziness. She is exactly what she was bred to be. I need to get this dog on some sheep.. because I can tell she would be amazing. Really, she is a good, fun dog and I know she will be even more awesome someday.


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## Laurelin

Every BC I know is not 100% dog friendly. Many of them are not tolerant of dogs at all. And Hank seems to really overwhelm a lot of them which kind of worries me if I get a BC in a couple years.


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## Alla

I dunno... When/how do you start seeing payoff in agility? I just came back from a lesson and I think my expectations need readjusting lol. Porsche jumped the gate to get out of the field and charged a dog-reactive dog. 

Said dog was doing well and running a full course or so. Not fast, not competitive-quality, but they were getting around a course.i was thinking that maybe they've been doing it for half a year or so... Except when I asked, the figure was 2-3 years. Like, really?

Trainer said it's usually about 1.5 years before a dog is somewhat ready to trial (I.e can get around a course reliably). Is that true/normal? 

Trainer also said that Porsche looks happier now than she did whEn we first started. Although she still loves the tunnel she preferred to avoid the jumps if she could feasibly do so, and her engagement with me was, well, minimal lol. Multiple times at the start line she preferred to sit and lick her incision rather than get up and go lol.

I dunno I feel like I should've had more fun than I did.


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## CptJack

It is absolutely true/normal that it takes between 18 months and 2 years for a dog to be able to trial, in my experience. Some start a bit sooner, but it's ring experience - you don't start seeing good performance in the ring in much less than that with 98% of the dogs. There is a TON of training that goes on, and frankly even once you're trialing you're doing it at novice and working toward open and then in open working toward elite and so on, with steadily more difficult courses and a constant need to hone your skills.

That said, I don't think I started *truly* having fun with Kylie until probably 18 months in, either? For me the fun comes when the dog starts running, when you start seeing the communicate come, when you can do a true course and get a big adrenaline rush and see the whole picture come together. I started having fun with Molly when we started doing sequences, but I know what we're building toward, rather than just slogging through frustration and confusion toward an uncertain goal. The goal and thrill and payout isn't the trial. It really is in the relationship and adrenaline rush and sense of accomplishment and awareness that you and your dog are playing this game together - and being able to strategize and try things and succeed and laugh and just... play. 

But it took me a long time to get that with Kylie instead of tearing my hair out about various assorted bits of training. It had to be more than that before it became truly thrilling. 

----

Yeah, most BCs I know aren't totally dog friendly - I'd say all but there are probably one or two in the mix that are. Most are *safe*, but almost none of them are 'love all the other dogs dogs'. In fairness, though, it's a rare dog over about 3 I know that is totally dog friendly, regardless of breed. BC are just... sharper and louder and more overt about it, and start a whole lot earlier.


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## Laurelin

What do you mean by payoff?

Yeah 1.5 years or so is about right for trialling most dogs. Somewhere between 1-2 years.

Some agility classes are bad. Everyone has bad weeks. I would expect to overall over the course of a long time span to see improvement though vs sliding back. But a bad week or two here and there definitely happens to everyone.

Some dogs progress fast. Some dogs don't. Some dogs will be fast running right out of the gate, some will be slower their whole 'career'. It really just depends on where you start and how much you work and what dog you have (not breed, talking individual). Each dog and handler is going to have their own path. I know people who started well before I started with Summer that haven't trialled. They don't want to. Some take classes sporadically instead of continuously. Some dogs have had to overcome a lot to just do short sequences. One of my friend's dogs for example is just now doing longer sequences and he started when Summer did but he has STILL improved dramatically. He would not even come out of his crate at all for the first several weeks. And now he's running near full courses happily! But he did it on his own time. And dogs are always going to do things on their time.



CptJack said:


> Yeah, most BCs I know aren't totally dog friendly - I'd say all but there are probably one or two in the mix that are. Most are *safe*, but almost none of them are 'love all the other dogs dogs'. In fairness, though, it's a rare dog over about 3 I know that is totally dog friendly, regardless of breed. BC are just... sharper and louder and more overt about it, and start a whole lot earlier.


Just to clarify I wasn't meaning that it's bad. I don't know any 100% dog friendly papillons either.


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## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Just to clarify I wasn't meaning that it's bad. I don't know any 100% dog friendly papillons either.


I know you didn't! I didn't mean it that way, either, just musing aloud.


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## CptJack

Oh, re: agility and competition worthy: 

It's also possible what you're thinking of as competition quality isn't really reality. Novice courses are pretty simple and the times tend to be generous. Even the Elite stuff doesn't look like some of the publicized top of the top competitions that show up all over TV or livestreams. They can be super challenging and they go fast, but the difference between that and a novice course are kind of radical.


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## Laurelin

I need to upload my video so y'all can see the hilarity that was Hank's debut. It was hilariously bad.


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## elrohwen

Alla, I'm also curious about what you mean by "payout". If you mean running full courses in competition, then yeah, 1-2 years. It's going to be longer for handlers who are very green, or dogs who have additional issues. Agility is complicated and there is a lot of training that goes on. Even in obedience it can take a year or more to get a really polished competition heel. Watson and I have been working on his for more than a year (before that we did "heel work" but I didn't know what I was doing so I don't count that) and he is still not able to go into a ring and heel for a couple minutes without rewards or in heavy distraction. Training well for dog sports takes a long time. 

If you're just wondering when the classes get fun, that really depends. Classes with Watson were not fun for probably 2 years. Sounds awful to say, and it's not like I was miserable, but he was a brat and hard to handle and there were nights when I went home crying. We are just now having fun in class and really working together consistently. It really depends on the dog and as others have said they move at their own speed.


Remaru, I don't mean to offend, but I feel like you're making excuses. Nobody "needs" a tuck sit, but if you want to train one CptJack and I laid out how to do it. Either he will need to learn to follow a lure closely and precisely, or you will need to use some sort of platform or target for his feet. It's not that hard, but it seems like no matter what we suggest you have numerous reasons why that won't work for you.


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## trainingjunkie

Ah, I sort of fell away from this thread! There is another nice way to get a tucked sit without a lure or a platform.

When I got my big whippet, he had a horrible rollback sit. He is so long that he would roll back 2 or 3 feet on a halt. I used platforms, hand targets AND leash pressure. Once I got him (as an adult) I just committed to never allowing another rollback. Ever. So I used all 3 methods.

If your dog knows to follow collar pressure, all you do is leash him, walk him, and when you stop, you hold the leash still so the only way for your dog to get out of collar pressure or to avoid it all together is to move forward. You don't yell, jerk, or add any pressure at all. You just quietly hold the leash and let your dog figure it out. If you play "silky leash" games, this should be a snap. If you haven't, just maintain the pressure and wait him out OR lure him into a tucked sit a few times to show him how the game works.

A tucked sit is easier if you teach it from the beginning, but I promise, it can easily be re-taught if you commit to it. If this interests you, I can film it. Works really well.


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## Alla

I guess my trialling comment added confusion lol. By "payoff" I mean "when does it get fun" lol. I mean, trialling could be fun and all if (and that's a huge if) we ever get there, but my sights are set more on having fun than any sort of competition. 

Although the comments about 1-2 years before you start having fun are, I must say, not entirely reassuring. :\ It's $210 every 6 weeks. 

On the other hand, getting pictures like this does add a bit more fun to it, even though I know that immediately after said picture doggie blew me off and jumped the gate to get out of the arena...










Thank you Remaru for bringing up the tuck sit issue and Elrohwen for your awesome video addressing how to lure it.  Porsche's default sit is the rollback sit, and seriously sometimes she'll literally BACK UP a few steps before finally rolling back... She can easily end up sitting 2-3 steps (my steps!) away from where she stood when I asked her to sit. 

The luring for the tuck sit worked perfectly.


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## kadylady

I'm curious to know what your definition of "payoff" is in this context as well? For me the "payoff" was instant, hence the reason I continued to sign up for classes. Right away, Zoey was loving it and I was loving it and she was getting more confident and we were having fun together and strengthening our relationship. That was a huge payoff and totally worth it to continue classes. I didn't start agility with the intent to compete, the desire to compete blossomed as we both learned to love playing this game together. Seeing my shy little rescue puppy bloom into this confident, happy dog....that has been our payoff all along. The rest is just a bonus. 

In terms of how long we trained before competing...we trained for a full year before our first CPE trial. CPE level 1 has no teeter and no weaves and is usually no more than about 12 obstacles with nice flowing lines (ie great venue for starting new or young dogs). We went another 6 months before our first AKC trial.


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## elrohwen

I took agility with Watson for 6 months and rarely had fun, so I was actually happy when we were forced to quit for a while due to my job. I do still want to try it with him, but I've realized that those types of group classes are not going to work for him and we need to try something else. Basically he was not good off leash, so doing an off leash class was never going to be very fun until we addressed the running away issues. Obedience classes were sometimes not fun, but I'm addicted to the progress we made. Sometimes very slow progress, sometimes complete backsliding, and sometimes we took a break and came back really strong. But there was always some progress and something I could get out of it. At least he was leashed so I was almost always able to set us up for success. So what if he had to do his stays across the room from everyone else - we moved closer and now he can sit in the line up like any other dog.

So it really depends on the dog. Some dogs are just a dream to work with and even when things don't go well for you, it's still fun. We had a blazing fast Aussie in our last class and I'm sure her novice owner was a bit frustrated at her crazy dog, but the dog always wanted to work and never ran away, and when the handler got her part right the dog almost always nailed her part. That kind of frustration I can deal with, and I think it's still fun to work a dog like that even when you're both new to it and making mistakes. The only thing that really frustrates me is a dog who consistently blows me off and doesn't want to play with me at all, and clearly that is a sign of some deeper foundation thing we need to fix. When Watson is working with me and paying attention at my house, I don't care at all that we can't figure out rear crosses or that he doesn't always know what I want. I get joy out of working with him and having that connection even when we are blundering around a bit.


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## Laurelin

Well for me it was fun from day 1. Sometimes difficult and some days were not fun but overall I find agility to be very fun to train. I'm sure not everyone will. 

1-2 years to TRIAL, not 1-2 years to have fun. For me it really picks up pace and gets more fun once you start running sequences. The foundations I can see being a bit dull for a lot of people but I really think the training sequences and such is very fun.


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## trainingjunkie

It really, really helps if a person can enjoy training the little pieces. Dogs know when people are having fun and when they are "phoning it in." If you can enjoy the steps and the process, the whole of training can be fun, not just the finished product.

I can actually say that I loved fixing our "tucked sit." And I loved teaching start lines. And I love teaching contacts with nothing more than a board on the ground. If you can be happy with the pieces, the strings will come together. If you hate teaching the pieces, there will be weak spots in your behavior chains.

It's really a midset. If you don't love training, there's really no way to make it successfully to trialing. There's nothing wrong with that. Training isn't interesting or fun for everyone. But if training is just a means to an end, trialing probably isn't worth the time and money.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> It really, really helps if a person can enjoy training the little pieces. Dogs know when people are having fun and when they are "phoning it in." If you can enjoy the steps and the process, the whole of training can be fun, not just the finished product.
> 
> I can actually say that I loved fixing our "tucked sit." And I loved teaching start lines. And I love teaching contacts with nothing more than a board on the ground. If you can be happy with the pieces, the strings will come together. If you hate teaching the pieces, there will be weak spots in your behavior chains.
> 
> It's really a midset. If you don't love training, there's really no way to make it successfully to trialing. There's nothing wrong with that. Training isn't interesting or fun for everyone. But if training is just a means to an end, trialing probably isn't worth the time and money.


Love this!


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## Alla

Yeah, it's my expectations that need adjusting. It was Porsche's first class after a 2-month break, and it was in a different venue (outside instead of inside), with a dog she never met before (nor was allowed to meet due to mutual reactivity issues), and she's only had 3 classes before this one. 

So, all that considered, she did well. Still loved the tunnels, did her platform stays, never refused the tire, and did eventually jump the bar jumps. After every obstacle came right to me (and only then tried to tear off to run around/out of the arena). 

I guess I was mostly stressed due to having lost all off-leash control, and constantly worrying (not without reason) that she'd run off and charge the other dog-reactive dog instead of coming back when called.


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## CptJack

It really, really depends on you and the dog and person and all kinds of thing.

I'm going to straight up admit that I didn't have fun at all for a good while. That flies against everything else being said here, but I didn't have fun at all.

I liked the training - the training fun!- and I liked that it built on itself and the success I had was enough to keep me going back (Ie: I won a toy when my dog went furthest around a bucket) and I'm really stubborn. Other people praising my dog and seeing my dog gain confidence helped keep me going back. But _I_ didn't get the game, I didn't truly understand what I was building to, my dog wasn't having a ton of fun though she was performing okay, and frankly I didn't know the people in the classes, wasn't comfortable with the environment (because I am an anti-social, anxious, misfit) so I was fighting my anxiety at the same time, and honestly it just *wasn't fun*. 

I ultimately started having real fun about the same time my dog did, and about the time I had wrestled my way through the anxiety and gotten comfortable with the people and setting. When I started to see it come together, when my dog was having the time of her life, when I got to the point where I gained enough skill to be a little more at ease with my skin. That _started_ pretty early on, but yep - took me 16 months easily before I hit 'this is such a rush I want to do this forever!!!' joy with it. 

Molly? Eh. Molly it took being able to do agility and have her stop reacting. My first classes there were just frustration and stress and dealing with reactivity and I'll admit I find the foundations work kind of boring. I'm good at teaching it but it's not super fun for me to do. Once things started coming together a little and she got to run fast and was comfortable enough to have fun, I had fun. 

So, I guess, both times, once my dog turned on and lit up to the game and was having a blast, so was I. But that was more than just the okay performance of the course or obstacles or crosses. Kylie had that way before she had it as a fun game that excited her. Molly there was much less gap, but it still took a bit, leaving me with a period of 'MEH' as a whole (again, training was fun and training the new stuff was but ~agility!~ in particular? Wasn't doing it for either of us).


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## CptJack

And you know, I wrote all of that and I can sum it up much more simply.

I started having fun with Kylie when Kylie gained enough confidence to have fun and *really* enjoy herself. 

I started having fun with Molly when I started being able to trust Molly. 

I still can't trust Molly completely, and Kylie still has, um, moments, and it's a journey in both cases, but the fun started at those places.


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## ireth0

Certainly I'm not an expert on agility, but it seems like you're starting on obstacles really early? From what I've understood you typically spend some time on engagement and communication and whatnot before introducing obstacles.


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## Alla

ireth0 said:


> Certainly I'm not an expert on agility, but it seems like you're starting on obstacles really early? From what I've understood you typically spend some time on engagement and communication and whatnot before introducing obstacles.


Oh yeah for sure. Our trainer does things the opposite way from what everyone says on the forum here. We started with obstacles right away.


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## CptJack

Alla said:


> Oh yeah for sure. Our trainer does things the opposite way from what everyone says on the forum here. We started with obstacles right away.


This might be part of it. All the 'not fun' stuff for me was related to engagement and trust and fun and value for the dog. That... takes time to build, and for me it happened when there *weren't* any obstacles to also worry about, you know? 

Not that it'll necessarily take you longer, but that it seems like a more crowded brain space.


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## elrohwen

Alla said:


> I guess I was mostly stressed due to having lost all off-leash control, and constantly worrying (not without reason) that she'd run off and charge the other dog-reactive dog instead of coming back when called.


When I started to spend every class worrying about this (because a couple dogs had shown some aggression towards Watson, which made his running away even scarier) it was time to quit. So I do understand how scary and not fun that can be, but I think it happens to everyone at least a couple times. After only 4 total classes, having one that was not fun is just kind of typical. Every dog and handler has bad days and everyone has had horrible training sessions.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> When I started to spend every class worrying about this (because a couple dogs had shown some aggression towards Watson, which made his running away even scarier) it was time to quit. So I do understand how scary and not fun that can be, but I think it happens to everyone at least a couple times. After only 4 total classes, having one that was not fun is just kind of typical. Every dog and handler has bad days and everyone has had horrible training sessions.


...I wonder how many pages I have to go back to find the post about Molly blowing a tunnel off to run toward another dog, me falling down and leaving class in tears?

ETA: 25
http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/272777-training-goals-progress-anyone-33.html

Last post on this page.


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## Alla

CptJack said:


> ...I wonder how many pages I have to go back to find the post about Molly blowing a tunnel off to run toward another dog, me falling down and leaving class in tears?
> 
> ETA: 25
> http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/272777-training-goals-progress-anyone-33.html
> 
> Last post on this page.


You know, I remember that post of yours. And I remember reading it out loud to my boyfriend and sympathizing and relating a lot. He even said "yep, that totally sounds exactly like how you'd react as well".

Lol it wasn't even a clean jump of the gate. She caught her back legs on it and broke the damn thing... It was flimsy and she was fine, but, yeah. I did end up catching her before she got anywhere near the other dog, but still, scary.


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## kadylady

trainingjunkie said:


> It really, really helps if a person can enjoy training the little pieces. Dogs know when people are having fun and when they are "phoning it in." If you can enjoy the steps and the process, the whole of training can be fun, not just the finished product.
> 
> I can actually say that I loved fixing our "tucked sit." And I loved teaching start lines. And I love teaching contacts with nothing more than a board on the ground. If you can be happy with the pieces, the strings will come together. If you hate teaching the pieces, there will be weak spots in your behavior chains.
> 
> It's really a midset. If you don't love training, there's really no way to make it successfully to trialing. There's nothing wrong with that. Training isn't interesting or fun for everyone. But if training is just a means to an end, trialing probably isn't worth the time and money.


Very well said. Totally agree.

While we most certainly have good days and bad days throughout our agility journey, the journey as a whole has been a blast. While Zoey's weave issues have been frustrating, the frustration comes at myself for missing certain steps to begin with and not preparing her like I should have. The actual process of going back and retraining our weaves, building her confidence and understanding of the task at hand and then proofing the heck out of it...I have actually quite enjoyed that! I've learned so much from it and I've been able to see and better appreciate the progress we've been making.


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## Alla

Randomly off topic, but I set up flash cards a few days ago around the house, with 3 random commands on each (as a way to get me to train Porsche more often in the flow of every day life, and also as a way for me to remember that she knows things other than sit and down).

I ended up with 5 flash cards of 3 commands on each. That's 15(!) commands that she knows, excluding the ones we use on a walk! I never counted them before, but once I did I was really proud of the fact that I was instrumental in her knowing most of those.  And if I count the walk-only commands, that's... 6 more, so 21 total!!

21 commands in 4 months is kind of super cool.


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## CptJack

Beautifully timing on the part of the instructor:

Looks like we're going to have some open 'meet at a park and work on non-agility training' dates for our little club coming up (or at least one!) which sounds like a wicked fun blast to me, and it looks like we're going to be able to organize things to work on Molly's reactivity in a more focused way. 

...You know, really, dog training is fun for me. Dog people are fun for me. Dog THINGS ARE FUN FOR ME. LOL.


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## Alla

CptJack said:


> Beautifully timing on the part of the instructor:
> 
> Looks like we're going to have some open 'meet at a park and work on non-agility training' dates for our little club coming up (or at least one!) which sounds like a wicked fun blast to me, and it looks like we're going to be able to organize things to work on Molly's reactivity in a more focused way.
> 
> ...You know, really, dog training is fun for me. Dog people are fun for me. Dog THINGS ARE FUN FOR ME. LOL.


Same here haha.  I was deciding on which Fenzi class to take the other day, and had boyfriend read the descriptions for a few of them, and his comment was that I should take at least one of the classes, because they sound like excellent ways to accomplish my goals. And I was like "I'm not sure there even IS a goal I want to accomplish. I'm just in it for the journey, because I find the journey fun." Which is true. Training is a blast (as long as there are rules, boundaries and limitations for me and I don't trigger my anxiety and stuff... woops did I just use a CM phrase? ). Progress is nice too. 

Also your agility club sounds like fun.


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## CptJack

Alla said:


> Also your agility club sounds like fun.


it is so much fun. I didn't really get to that part of it before I started doing club practices/run throughs and getting included in things like this, but man it's a blast. They had a BBQ last weekend I didn't get to go to - dogs weren't even involved - but it's just such a nice group of people (and dogs!).


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## elrohwen

I wish I had more dog friends. I'm friendly with some people I've been in classes with for a while, but generally I don't do much socializing in class because I'm so focused on Watson and making him not be stupid. Nosework has been the most social class because you spend a lot of time standing around without your dog so you can actually talk to people. Still, most people I have met are not really people I will ever be close friends with (due to age, personality, whatever). I do really like feeling like a part of some dog community though even if it's online, which is why I keep coming back to forums. The FDSA community on FB has also been an excellent way to meet people and feel like a part of something. And it is really nice to sign up for classes know and see familiar faces and chat with them, instead of sitting by myself quietly.

It is more fun to go to class when you don't feel awkward and out of the loop, but rather like you're part of the group. I attended my friend's classes when we visited her and the instructors were so outgoing and loud and told so many jokes (often off color) that the classes were a blast. Even quiet slightly awkward people like me felt at home right away. Nothing against more quiet or serious instructors at all, but it's fun to train with people who are just fun themselves.


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## CptJack

I have a hard time with it. I'm still not overly talkative and outgoing and I get pretty awkward when I'm trying to participate in a group but as time has gone I've gotten pretty comfortable and at ease. A lot of it's stuff outside of classes though, like those run throughs. When you have more down time waiting it's easier to chat with people, a bit. Having the dogs around actually helps, because it gives me something else to focus on, and smooths some rough edges.

And I got drawn out and made to feel welcome by one particular person who went out of her way to speak to me, to compliment my dog, and to help me loosen up and relax when I was all tense. She's just really good at being a people person. Mostly though, I needed a chance to loosen up and warm up. I am lucky enough at least that I'm of similar age to most of the people. We have a few college students around and I'm a LITTLE younger, but not overwhelmingly.


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## kadylady

I love my agility club and my dog friends so much! My main instructor and I are best friends now and hang out quite often outside of the club and trials and class and such. But I've made so many friends through our club and then through trialing. Which is part of why I love trialing. It's not just competing with my dogs (which I love) but that's my social scene!


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> I love my agility club and my dog friends so much! My main instructor and I are best friends now and hang out quite often outside of the club and trials and class and such. But I've made so many friends through our club and then through trialing. Which is part of why I love trialing. It's not just competing with my dogs (which I love) but that's my social scene!


This is why I've never really enjoyed dog shows - I have no social scene! At small conformation shows there will be maybe one breeder who I know casually, and a bunch of pro handlers. So I drag DH along. 

When I did Rally I did know some more people there and we chatted a bit, but we're still just casual friends and it's not like I hung out with them the whole time. Nationals was fun because there were so many Welshie people and you could talk to anybody, but I still hung out with my husband most of the time. Chatting with acquaintances for 20min doesn't take up the whole day. Haha

I've always found people to be very nice, but not friendly in the sense that they want to bring me into their group and make me part of it, and that makes trials/shows lonely and boring.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> I've always found people to be very nice, but not friendly in the sense that they want to bring me into their group and make me part of it, and that makes trials/shows lonely and boring.


 

I have to credit my instructor/bff for bringing me into her circle of friends. We just clicked as friends right away and by the time I was ready to trial we were really close and she has introduced me to so many people and it has made integrating into the trial scene really easy. Without her I would probably be in the same boat, except without my husband because he doesn't do dog shows lol I did become good friends with another friend because we both started at the same time and went through all the classes together, joined the club at the same time and started trialing at the same time. 

I also think the more you show up and the more people start to recognize you and your dog, the more friendly they are. I had someone compliment me a couple months ago on one of our runs and tell me that she remember watching us when we first started and complimented us on how far we've come. I totally did not recognize this person at all! But the more familiar the faces get the more there is to eventually talk about. I totally understand it being difficult to penetrate that circle initially and consider myself very lucky, because I am not a naturally social person at all.


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## CptJack

Honestly, I am not trying to make best friends or close friends with agility. It might happen, but if it does it'll take forever. It isn't that I'm opposed, it's that I'm an aloof, anxious, person and it takes me a really, really long time to move from friendly to *friends*. Heck, it takes me an eternity to just start talking to people if they don't talk to me first! I'm perfectly happy with a group of people I'm comfortable spending time with, talking to a little bit, hanging out near, and just generally not being ignored, shunned, ostracized, frozen out, or whatever. All I actually want/need is to feel welcome in the space, not to feel like an unwanted outsider, and to be comfortable talking to people when I have things to say.

These people are REALLY nice, and there are some I definitely am more okay chatting with than others. They've always made me feel welcome and I really do like them - which is a testament to how awesome they are. I'm just no good at people in real life spaces. I'm getting better with this group, by a lot. Probably because they're dog people and recognize me as undersocialized and timid.


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## Laurelin

I've made a lot of friends through agility. It does take time and repeatedly showing up for things. I've clicked well with both my instructors and have taken classes with most the people that are trialling or have taken classes with their friends. So it's cool now and I do see some of them sometimes outside of agility. We even have christmas parties and things. 

It's weird now not being the new kid.


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## ireth0

CptJack said:


> Honestly, I am not trying to make best friends or close friends with agility. It might happen, but if it does it'll take forever. It isn't that I'm opposed, it's that I'm an aloof, anxious, person and it takes me a really, really long time to move from friendly to *friend*. I'm perfectly happy with a group of people I'm comfortable spending time with, talking to a little bit, hanging out near, and just generally not being ignored, shunned, ostracized, frozen out, or whatever. All I actually want/need is to feel welcome in the space, not to feel like an unwanted outsider, and to be comfortable talking to people when I have things to say.
> 
> These people are REALLY nice, and there are some I definitely am more okay chatting with than others. They've always made me feel welcome and I really do like them - which is a testament to how awesome they are. I'm just no good at people in real life spaces.


I think I'm similar to this, except it's not anxiety as much as... just generally not being good with people? I can be friendly and I can make chit chat and generally interact without freaking out (now, when I was younger I was much more socially awkward), but it's difficult for me to make -friends- that are close vs just people I am friendly with and like to talk to.


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## CptJack

ireth0 said:


> I think I'm similar to this, except it's not anxiety as much as... just generally not being good with people? I can be friendly and I can make chit chat and generally interact without freaking out (now, when I was younger I was much more socially awkward), but it's difficult for me to make -friends- that are close vs just people I am friendly with and like to talk to.


Yeah, my anxiety is much less than it used to be, which means I don't freeze up and freak out nearly as much as it used to thanks to medication and therapy for a while, but I am definitely missing some social skills or something, somewhere. I'm also just plain introverted on top of it, so I'm not crazy motivated to be super social and make tons of friends, either.

I DID just ask one of the people I like most (who compensates for my weirdness well) if I could hold onto her email address, though (from a group mail). NOt sure if that's a positive step or if I came off as creepy, but she agreed so. Yay?


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## ireth0

Yea, I was always known to be shy as a kid. Never spoke up or interacted with anyone unless they interacted with me first (and then it was very minimal "yes, no, I don't know" kind of interaction) or unless I already knew them well enough to feel comfortable with them. (which was like... a handful of people if that)

Now I'm still more apt to fade into the background observing in a group setting vs speaking up, but now it's not because I'm -afraid- to speak up. And I can also engage in a conversation at least to some extent and will venture to say things I think are funny vs freezing up and not knowing what I should be saying/doing. 

I guess I've become more easygoing overall as I've matured. But I've always fallen on the 'logical, thoughtful, introverted, analytical' part of the spectrum as opposed to 'emotional, people oriented, extrovert, etc'


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## elrohwen

I've been taking classes 1-2 times weekly for 3 years at the place were are at, and I'm still not friends with anyone. It's not that people aren't perfectly nice, it's just the kind of nice that you are with co-workers. They might ask about a dog show I went to, and I'll ask how their dogs are doing and what their show plans are, and that kind of thing, but we're not going to hang out after class or anything. Friendly yes, but not friends. Part of that is absolutely the fact that most women I take classes with have children almost my age and I'm in my early 30s, so the age difference is pretty big. Kind of the same with Welshie people I know - we respond to each other's FB posts, and we will hang out together at shows (the few shows where there are other Welshie people), but it's not like we're friends. I guess it doesn't help that the closest ones are 1.5 hours away.

At the place my friend trains, the one trainer is maybe in her 40s and the other is probably barely older than me. I can see becoming friends much more easily with people nearer my own age.

When it comes to classes and stuff I'm very happy with where I am now. Friendly but not friends is perfectly fine. It's just at shows that I wish I had a group to hang out with. There are only so many 5 minute casual conversations I can have with people about our dogs before I'm back to my area sitting by myself. lol

ETA: Like most of you, I'm not particularly outgoing either. I don't often talk to people unless they talk to me first, and it takes me a while to make friends. Like in a new job environment, I'm friendly with people but I don't really open up and feel part of the group until I've been there 6-12 months. Once I know people I'm quite chatty though.


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## CptJack

Honestly, my ideal right now would be someone to hang out with, without necessarily having to talk to the whole time? Like, set up beside or with someone, talk about things as they occurred or there was something to say, and otherwise like - read our own books. I think I've just about gotten that, though there is a LOT of running around going on at the trials I've been to, which means opportunity to be sitting awkwardly alone are limited. Fortunately. 

(And I do get chattier as I go - and less likely to trip over my tongue.)


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> I've been taking classes 1-2 times weekly for 3 years at the place were are at, and I'm still not friends with anyone. It's not that people aren't perfectly nice, it's just the kind of nice that you are with co-workers. They might ask about a dog show I went to, and I'll ask how their dogs are doing and what their show plans are, and that kind of thing, but we're not going to hang out after class or anything. Friendly yes, but not friends. Part of that is absolutely the fact that most women I take classes with have children almost my age and I'm in my early 30s, so the age difference is pretty big. Kind of the same with Welshie people I know - we respond to each other's FB posts, and we will hang out together at shows (the few shows where there are other Welshie people), but it's not like we're friends. I guess it doesn't help that the closest ones are 1.5 hours away.
> 
> At the place my friend trains, the one trainer is maybe in her 40s and the other is probably barely older than me. I can see becoming friends much more easily with people nearer my own age.
> 
> When it comes to classes and stuff I'm very happy with where I am now. Friendly but not friends is perfectly fine. It's just at shows that I wish I had a group to hang out with. There are only so many 5 minute casual conversations I can have with people about our dogs before I'm back to my area sitting by myself. lol
> 
> ETA: Like most of you, I'm not particularly outgoing either. I don't often talk to people unless they talk to me first, and it takes me a while to make friends. Like in a new job environment, I'm friendly with people but I don't really open up and feel part of the group until I've been there 6-12 months. Once I know people I'm quite chatty though.


Pretty close to this for me as well. I've been doing nosework with most of the same people for a few years now. Friendly with them but wouldn't call any of them friends. Basically no one my age there either. We chat during travel classes, if we end up at trials together we hang out a good chunk of the time but that's about it. I've really only had non-dog related conversations with one of the nosework people and she's got to be in her 60s.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Honestly, my ideal right now would be someone to hang out with, without necessarily having to talk to the whole time? Like, set up beside or with someone, talk about things as they occurred or there was something to say, and otherwise like - read our own books. I think I've just about gotten that, though there is a LOT of running around going on at the trials I've been to, which means opportunity to be sitting awkwardly alone are limited. Fortunately.
> 
> (And I do get chattier as I go - and less likely to trip over my tongue.)


We went to a little show earlier this year and set up near a Cocker spaniel person who was there with only one dog and her friend. They were very nice ladies, and it was nice to sit next to them for a couple days. Sometimes we chatted, mostly we did our own thing, but it was nice to have someone else to talk to while waiting around. Conformation is hard because so many people are pros who have a lot of dogs and their own social group. Owner handlers are often pretty friendly but there aren't a ton of them.


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## CptJack

I think the age gap matters less as you go - and by that I mean as you get older. I'm nearly 40 so I'm pretty much middle of the road. You guys *do* remind me to make a point of making sure the younger/college kids in our classes now get included and welcomed. I obviously probably don't have a lot in common with them but at least I can make sure they don't feel unwelcomed.



elrohwen said:


> We went to a little show earlier this year and set up near a Cocker spaniel person who was there with only one dog and her friend. They were very nice ladies, and it was nice to sit next to them for a couple days. Sometimes we chatted, mostly we did our own thing, but it was nice to have someone else to talk to while waiting around. Conformation is hard because so many people are pros who have a lot of dogs and their own social group. Owner handlers are often pretty friendly but there aren't a ton of them.


The best time I've had at a trial was where I just set up beside someone. We talked some, didn't talk some, I played with her dogs and made friends and gave them a toy and otherwise just had someone to hang NEAR. Apparently that's good enough for me  First trial was awkward, in part because of the rain and part because I couldn't figure out where to just... be, you know? I roamed around, a lot.


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## elrohwen

I have a ton of friends who are 5-15 years older than me (pretty much all of my close friends are my age or older), so it's not just the age, but a group of women in their 50s and 60s is not a group I have a ton in common with, outside of our dogs.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I have a ton of friends who are 5-15 years older than me (pretty much all of my close friends are my age or older), so it's not just the age, but a group of women in their 50s and 60s is not a group I have a ton in common with, outside of our dogs.


Yea this. If anything it's more of a mentor/motherly friendly relationship vs feeling like peers.

There are a couple other people my age who regularly do nosework, but they're not part of the 'regulars', at least not yet.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea this. If anything it's more of a mentor/motherly friendly relationship vs feeling like peers..


Yes! That's a good way of putting it.


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## Alla

elrohwen said:


> I have a ton of friends who are 5-15 years older than me (pretty much all of my close friends are my age or older), so it's not just the age, but a group of women in their 50s and 60s is not a group I have a ton in common with, outside of our dogs.


Yeah this basically. Almost everyone I see at classes are all "empty nester" older women. I'm 25, so... lol.


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## ireth0

Basically we should all just get together and do Skype classes, lmao.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Basically we should all just get together and do Skype classes, lmao.


Haha. Yes!!


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## Alla

ireth0 said:


> Basically we should all just get together and do Skype classes, lmao.


Yes!! 

I find it's also hard to socialize in classes because inevitably your dogs want to get near each other and you can't allow that, so at most you're shouting at each other from 30 feet away. And I have bad eye sight in the distance, so at 30ft everyone kinda looks the same, so I end up differentiating people by the dogs they have with them. Not the best grounds for socialization when at the end of the lesson everyone puts their dogs away into their cars and you finally see a person's face and can't figure out if its the Corgi lady or the Malinois lady.

To add, I'm not socially awkward at all, and I will be the first to initiate conversation, but not if I have to yell "Hi! what's your name?" from 30ft away.


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## Alla

Random question... Do your agility instructors also ask your dogs to watch other dogs perform? Mine believes that it's a good way for dogs to see that obstacles aren't scary and are fun. I've seen it help, but it's an interesting strategy and I wonder if other trainers use it too. 

I find it's pretty difficult to switch between "I want your attention on me, ignore the dog, don't react to it" and "okay now I want you to actively watch the other dog".


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## elrohwen

I've never had any instructor tell us to have our dogs watch other dogs.

Watching other dogs do the teeter completely freaked Watson out. He was fine taking it at his own speed, but watching it move quickly and bang on the ground was too much for him.

Some dogs can watch other dogs calmly, but lots of dogs can't, especially when that other dog is running fast on an agility course.


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## ireth0

Alla said:


> Random question... Do your agility instructors also ask your dogs to watch other dogs perform? Mine believes that it's a good way for dogs to see that obstacles aren't scary and are fun. I've seen it help, but it's an interesting strategy and I wonder if other trainers use it too.
> 
> I find it's pretty difficult to switch between "I want your attention on me, ignore the dog, don't react to it" and "okay now I want you to actively watch the other dog".


We don't do agility... but back when we were first learning nosework the joke was that Luna would 'cheat' by watching the other dogs and then going right away to check the correct box. After that I started covering her eyes as a joke before our turn.


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## Alla

elrohwen said:


> I've never had any instructor tell us to have our dogs watch other dogs.
> 
> Watching other dogs do the teeter completely freaked Watson out. He was fine taking it at his own speed, but watching it move quickly and bang on the ground was too much for him.
> 
> Some dogs can watch other dogs calmly, but lots of dogs can't, especially when that other dog is running fast on an agility course.


Maybe she tried it once with Porsche, saw that it helped her, and now uses that as a strategy specifically for us? She does adapt a lot to different dogs... Porsche does occasionally get amped up watching another dog take an obstacle quickly, but if anything that makes her more excited to take said obstacle when its her turn. Mostly she just watches quietly though.


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## elrohwen

Alla said:


> Maybe she tried it once with Porsche, saw that it helped her, and now uses that as a strategy specifically for us? She does adapt a lot to different dogs... Porsche does occasionally get amped up watching another dog take an obstacle quickly, but if anything that makes her more excited to take said obstacle when its her turn. Mostly she just watches quietly though.


It's certainly true that dogs can learn by watching other dogs, and nervous dog can be less nervous by watching a confident dog perform the same thing.


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## chimunga

We've been working on a formal recall for literally a week. One week. I know, I'm a bad person. But about a week ago, I realized that he had a pretty solid recall to "C'mere" or his name. Very informal, mostly optional. "Hey get over here if you have the time, whatever, no hurry." But there wasn't a word that got him to come to me 99.9% of the time. So I started teaching him "Here." Fast forward to tonight on our walk. I've been reinforcing it really heavily through the week. The leash manages to get out of my hand. He's a good twenty yards away, just booking it, before I really realize what just happened. Using my best authority voice I say "Watson, HERE!" This dog turns on a dime from a dead sprint back to me. Never been more proud of him. We threw a party when he got back to me.


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## Eenypup

_Finally_ found a video of a dog acting almost exactly how Bennie acts around kids. Nearly identical, before the play bowing. Someone at the source I had gotten the video from had taken a guess that he may have gotten rowdy in addition to the shake off to ease his tension? Because he found the situation stressful, which I think is obvious from the rest of the interaction with the girl. Anyways, thought it was a good visual because this is Bennie's behavior to a tee.

It's 2:16-2:37:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGbAJLpZkY&feature=youtu.be


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## Flaming

Eenypup said:


> _Finally_ found a video of a dog acting almost exactly how Bennie acts around kids. Nearly identical, before the play bowing. Someone at the source I had gotten the video from had taken a guess that he may have gotten rowdy in addition to the shake off to ease his tension? Because he found the situation stressful, which I think is obvious from the rest of the interaction with the girl. Anyways, thought it was a good visual because this is Bennie's behavior to a tee.
> 
> It's 2:16-2:37:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGbAJLpZkY&feature=youtu.be


Manna use to be kinda like that for the longest time! 
We use to joke that kids were higher value than steak....for Manna at least it was overstimulation mixed with wanting to play inappropriately. 
It took a while but we managed to teach her that kids are not dogs and to play gentle. 

We found some tough family kids who were willing to train with us and didn't mind landing on their behinds plus a sturdy harness and hands free waist leash (so if my hands slipped she was still anchored to me and couldn't chase) 

The kids had fun and learned that big dogs could hurt them accidently so always ask the owners first,Manna learned that kids knock over easily and that she should be gentle. 
The way we did it sounds irresponsible but believe me there was a lot of management involved and not 1 kid even walked away with a bruise. Everyone was safe


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## dagwall

Eenypup said:


> _Finally_ found a video of a dog acting almost exactly how Bennie acts around kids. Nearly identical, before the play bowing. Someone at the source I had gotten the video from had taken a guess that he may have gotten rowdy in addition to the shake off to ease his tension? Because he found the situation stressful, which I think is obvious from the rest of the interaction with the girl. Anyways, thought it was a good visual because this is Bennie's behavior to a tee.
> 
> It's 2:16-2:37:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGbAJLpZkY&feature=youtu.be


To me that dog just looked playful really, somewhat inappropriate with jumping up in the kids face but playful none the less. I'd attribute it's shake off more from the effort of him sitting still for as long as he did before jumping up on the kid. Maybe a tiny bit anxious about the way the kid was petting him, reaching over his head but that's all I noticed.


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## Eenypup

Interesting... I mean it's still possible that I've been misreading Bennie and she just has no clue how to be appropriate and gets overstimulated because she likes people at her eye level. I can't think of a better visual than that video (aside from actually having videotaped Bennie lol), her body language is sooooo much like his. I mean the scenario where I put her in a sit and she knocked over a girl with her paws is almost indentical to this but the girl was a bit smaller. I had attributed her stiffness and lip licking (like in the video) to being anxious but could it just be her trying to reign in over exuberance?!


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## elrohwen

I agree with dagwall that I don't see any aggression in the dog. Over excitement and inappropriate jumping sure, but no aggression.


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## Eenypup

Hm. Now I'm wondering if maybe Bennie doesn't act exactly like that dog or maybe she does and I've misread her. Either way I'm obviously terrible at reading dog body language lol. Although others had interpreted that jump in the video as not friendly too.


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## trainingjunkie

I watched the video. I did not see "aggressive" in the encounter, but I still didn't like the reaction. Too much energy. The higher then energy, the higher the response. With a dog that "up," the situation is going to develop and change so fast that it's going to be hard to stay on top of it.

Not in a million years would I say that's a dangerous dog, but on the other hand, that's a dog I would be mindful about if he was mine.

If I owned this dog and wanted him to interact with kids, I would have the interactions take place when my dog was a little tired. I would also teach my dog that the only way to interact with the child would be when he was calm. If my dog started jumping or being too active, I would step 4 or 5 steps away from the child and wait until my dog was quiet enough to start forward again. I wouldn't be correcting my dog, but we would only move forward when calm. If he couldn't self-calm, we wouldn't interact. That simple.

One of my dogs is a total spaz case with kids. I make him sit or stand when kids want to pet him and I just cradle his muzzle so I can feel what he's watching and feel if he tenses up. He's a dog that lives really high, so I have him super controlled with kids. I can do this because I know for sure that he has no fear or concern about kids or handling. I also take him to assisted living centers and allow him to interact with people with oxygen, walkers, wheelchairs and colostomy bags. But when he interacts, I am kneeling beside him with one hand in his collar and another near or on his muzzle, just rubbing his face quietly. He's a little crazy and he reacts very quickly, so I just put myself where I need to be to keep everyone perfectly safe. 

Again, this only works because my dog is fearless and truly loves people... FWIW.


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## Canyx

I don't see aggression either. But the dog was tense and had the whale eye going just before he jumped. You can see that when two dogs play too, that moment of anticipation before leaping out and engaging another dog. Also, the child's face was looming right above the dog's head. Some dogs react to that; and remember because children are shorter when they loom over a dog their faces are much closer than if an adult was to lean slightly in. It could have been play. It could have been a slightly stressful situation to the dog; who knows. Most dogs don't like other faces close to theirs. My dog will let me stick my head in his mouth if I could... But it is all trained and if I were to just gradually bring my face closer, he would lick it once and fast, then turn away and offer me his butt/neck region for petting. His way of appeasing the situation and diffusing it. 
I agree with trainingjunkie; I still don't like the reaction regardless of intention. The child still could have gotten hurt. A dog like that, I would allow kids to pet gently and in very low arousal situations. But I would be controlling the situation, possibly distracting/rewarding the dog at the same time, and having its head/body facing any direction except directly at the kid. I would keep it short and sweet, politely and swiftly move away and jackpot the end of the interaction. Even with my own dog, who grew up with a kid, is also uncharacteristically gentle with disabled folk, and adores children, I am still heavily supervising any interactions when they do happen. A good method is to tell the kid what your dog likes (ex "He loves being pet right here" ::show the kid how to pet:. It makes the kid think she's really making my dog happy and is teaching her proper interaction with my dog, without outright ordering her to DO THIS and DON'T do this.


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## Eenypup

Thanks for the input guys. Boy do I wish I had an actual video of Bennie because I certainly don't trust myself to see the nuanced differences between this video & how Bennie may react. Who knows if it's truly similar or not, in the end :/ It would be a lot easier to deal with her being too annoying & jumpy for kids than her being fear aggressive towards them, though.


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## elrohwen

I agree with the others that the dog in the video was not a dog I would allow to go up to just any kid without some control (holding the collar, etc), but still don't see even a little aggression. Watson is a lot like that with kids. He starts out ok, but gets more and more excited and will eventually try to jump on them and often lick their ears (which is weird for a lot of people, and not appropriate for a small child you just met). I don't think he's aggressive though and I don't worry about him with kids, I just make sure I have physical control of him when kids pet him so he can't get too excited and knock someone over. 

No offense, but based on a lot of things you have written about Bennie in you other posts, I'm going to come down on the side of you misreading her. Maybe she's not polite with kids, but I find it so hard to believe that she is fear aggressive based on all of your posts. Fear aggressive dogs don't act like you say she acts.


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## CptJack

Molly is fear aggressive - ie: fear is the base of most of her reactivity. 

She... looks aggressive. I mean just straight up, bottom line. Hackles up, lunging, growling, barking, when it's intense and when it's not she's very still and quiet and still growls and ducks. I mean sometimes it's forward aggression, sometimes she's trying to retreat, but there's not much mistaking it. 

If you said Bennie was maybe prey-driven toward children and just wanted to chase/eat them, I might buy it since your descriptions are sometimes stiff, but it's always upright and forward and relatively calm. At MOST over-aroused. I don't really buy that, either, but might. Fear aggressive? No. No way. There's nothing in that dog up there that qualifies as fearful or even close to it.


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## ireth0

Basically I agree with what everyone else has said. I see the dog mildly uncomfortable with the kid going over the dog's head to pet, and were I in that situation I would have instructed the kid to stop and/or show a more appropriate interaction that my dog was more comfortable with. 

I wouldn't say the dog was good with kids just on the basis of knocking them over in excitement accidentally, but I definitely wouldn't term that dog aggressive at all.


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## CptJack

You know, honestly, I might even call that dog a bite risk to a kid, depending on level of the dog's arousal and bite inhibition. It would make me uncomfortable to have that dog and a kid interacting and if I needed to, I'd probably have them pet the dog from behind or like Trainingjunkie keep my hands around the dog's muzzle. 

It's just... I don't see fear. Anywhere. Or aggression in the sense that aggression is the desire to hurt the kid.


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## elrohwen

I updated on the FB group but not here. Watson went to the behaviorist on Saturday and she gave me a lot to think about. For one, she doesn't think he needs medication in any way. He is a naturally anxious dog sometimes, with his SA and being nervous in the vet's office, but he can settle down and he's not miserable, so she didn't think medication was warranted. For example, he never did trust her or get friendly with her during the appointment, because he knew he was at a vet, but he was able to lie next to me and even sleep for a good portion of the appointment as well. 

As far as the over arousal thing goes, she said that to her it looks like he's searching for something, whether it's females in heat or animals or whatever. Even he doesn't seem to know what he's searching for though, since seeing prey or other dogs doesn't satisfy him. She said it's possible that neutering would fix this because it could be driven by hormones, but then it might not. She has seen neutering make dogs better, make dogs worse, and have no impact. But she put it out there.

She also said that I am frustrating him. By attempting to calm him down (working exiting the car calmly and not taking a single step if he can't be on a loose leash) I was making him more frustrated. She recommended going with the crazy and taking breaks to play little training games, and to walk on a short leash, but to also let him do what he needs to do. She also said that I need to be more clear when I communicate with him, especially when he's like this. For example, if I say his name he looks back at me, but he doesn't really know what I want (sometimes a cue follows his name, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it's a recall, sometimes it's not). Instead of using his name I need to use very specific cues like "wait" or "down" where he knows exactly what to do. She also recommended a "wait" instead of a recall off leash when he's getting too far away, because the recall was pulling him off of what he was sniffing and was frustrating for him. 

She also recommended a Gentle Leader to prevent him pulling my arm out when he's like this, and she said it may calm him down too. I agree that when he's really crazy the prong came amp him up more (though it works well in other situations), so we're going to try that. It is easier to just go with the crazy when I can physically handle him better.

Overall it was a good visit. I heard some things I hadn't heard before and got some ideas that most people haven't mentioned. I will be much more conscious of what cues I use and what I expect from him, and I will try to realize when I'm frustrating him and try to do things that lower that frustration level. She didn't think there was really anything fundamentally wrong with him besides his mild anxiety over certain things.


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## kadylady

Sounds like a good appointment overall elrohwen...at least gives you some new suggestions and hopefully puts your mind to ease about the medication stuff. I'm still really shocked by the suggestions from the FDSA group.

I'm curious if you used the Adaptil the other night and if you noticed anything at all with it? My agility instructor had a massage/chiro appointment with her BC right after Zoey's last appointment and the vet was going to change the bedding that she has for the dogs to lay on during their appointment and my friend told her she didn't need to, since our dogs are around each other all the time. Well for the whole appointment she kept noticing and commenting about how much more relaxed her dog was. He's not typically bad or anything during appointments but just typical restless and she said he was just so much more relaxed than normal (and he's been there a lot of these appointments). Near the end of her appointment her and the vet realized that since they didn't change the bedding it still had Adaptil spray on it from Zoey's appointment. Was interesting that they both noticed a difference in him without realizing that Adaptil was still on the bed, kind of like a blind trial I guess. Anyway, just wondering if you noticed anything at all?

I hope the Gentle leader helps. I actually just started using one on Skye and Zoey this weekend for when I walk all the dogs together. It's been a real pain trying to walk them together because the girls just amp each other up and goof around. I had been doing separate shorter walks but I hated having to cut it short, I'd rather be able to walk them both for longer. Wow, the gentle leaders are making such a difference. I'm so wishing I had tried them months ago! Obviously my long term goal is to be back on flat collars or harnesses but it was so nice to walk them together this weekend without all the crazies!


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## Eenypup

For very good reason I've never claimed at being an expert on readings of body language  I'm learning as best as I can as I go! Really me misreading her is best case scenario in my mind, so I'm not offended in the slightest. Correct me if I'm wrong - but a dog who behaves in that way could likely be trained to behave more appropriately with children over time?

I'm going to try to search the Internet and become more familiar with the body language of dogs who are actually fear aggressive. I mean she certainly sounds nothing like how you describe Molly at all. Yes she's always very forward so fear doesn't make much sense as the basis of her behavior.


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## elrohwen

Yeah, her read on the videos was very different from the Fenzi FB page people. They all saw stressed out dog, but she saw a dog who enjoying sniffing and is searching for something and not finding it which makes him a bit frantic. And when he does recall and acts squirrely she saw frustration in him that I was calling him back and he didn't know what I wanted, not a dog who was panicked and miserable. She also made me feel better by saying that LLW training doesn't work for most people. Unless you have lots of time and don't have a job, at some point you're going to get frustrated and just need to walk the dog, and by changing your criteria like that you're just teaching the dog to be frustrated and put up with your LLW training in order to pull and be crazy again. Everybody on the FB page was so into making him be calm every step of the way and not getting far from the car, etc and it was good to hear that's not very realistic and not the way she would recommend working with him at all. Honestly, I tried that last summer and put a lot of work into it, and it didn't really make a difference. Not that I have to let him burst from the car screaming, but expecting to take him to to a park and walk on a loose leash and not be excited is just not going to happen.

I also thought about another scenario the other day. I had him in our little fenced area and he was frantic, pacing the fence line, obviously wanting to get out and sniff. There is a groundhog who lives basically next to our fenced area and I'm pretty sure this is what he wants to track down. He looked crazy, but when I asked for his focus he was able to run some agility jumps and play with me and engage. As soon as I released him he went back to pacing the fence. So he can be crazy, but if I am very clear about what I want from him and I am motivating enough, he is actually a happy worker. He just wants to do *something* and if work is the only option he will work. Thinking about incidents like that makes me think that she is probably right that I need to be clear, not frustrate him, and try to work with the crazy instead of trying to make him into a calm dog that he will never be. I've known for a long time that one of the biggest reasons he will leave me while working off leash is if he is frustrated and unclear on criteria. I need to work new things at home until he is very solid, because once he is amped it's about working and not about training stuff. His frustration tolerance goes down as his energy goes up.

I did use the Adaptil! I put it on a bandana and we went out to a bar for trivia. He had never been to that particular bar before, and luckily there weren't any other dogs. I didn't really notice a difference unfortunately. He was really wired in the car. I think he usually knows that going some place with me alone will not be that exciting - running errands, going to the vet, etc with only occasional trips to some place like a park. But going somewhere with me, my husband, and the puppy probably means exciting stuff every time. He is so good at figuring out situations and reading the subtle differences.

Anyway, he was about as good as I expected at the bar, so I'm not sure that it helped. He was a bit over excited at first, and did bark at a dog who walked past while we were sitting outside, but for the most part he was able to settle pretty well after about half an hour. I wanted to put it on a mat instead of just the bandana, but my husband thought we would look like crazy dog people who didn't want their dog to lie on the dirty ground. LOL So we left that in the car. I might try it for another dining situation where there is more activity and other dogs passing by (this place is well on a side street without much activity). And I will definitely spray a mat and bring it with us to the vet next time. I also need to talk to MrsBoats about Gelsemium and what to order.

How long did it take you to get them used to the Gentle Leader? We did a couple little sessions with just putting it on and taking it off and he's totally fine with that now, but as soon as I try to walk (with the leash on his collar, not the GL) he is rubbing his face into the ground for a good 50ft. I ended up just dragging him on the walk at first and there were moments of drama trying to paw it off of his face. After a little while he just refused to walk, which isn't unusual if it's hot, but I think he was also just sick of the GL, so we went home. That was only one walk though, so I hope it gets better each time. I'm making sure to only treat and take it off when he's not bothering it.


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## elrohwen

Eenypup said:


> For very good reason I've never claimed at being an expert on readings of body language  I'm learning as best as I can as I go! Really me misreading her is best case scenario in my mind, so I'm not offended in the slightest. Correct me if I'm wrong - but a dog who behaves in that way could likely be trained to behave more appropriately with children over time?


Sure, rudeness and being overly excited is certainly something you can train over time. My dog is rarely around kids, so I don't worry about it. If kids want to pet him I hold his collar and we move on quickly after a few pets. If he looks uncomfortable we move on sooner or I have the kids give him a treat (I hold his collar for that too, because they often pull the treat away at the last second which makes him jump at them). When he's around a particular kid for longer periods of time he usually settles down and ignores them. And if he's too obnoxious I can just put him away. For me it's very much a situation that I manage when we're in it, and then don't spend any more time worrying about it.


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## CptJack

Eenypup said:


> For very good reason I've never claimed at being an expert on readings of body language  I'm learning as best as I can as I go! Really me misreading her is best case scenario in my mind, so I'm not offended in the slightest. Correct me if I'm wrong - but a dog who behaves in that way could likely be trained to behave more appropriately with children over time?
> 
> I'm going to try to search the Internet and become more familiar with the body language of dogs who are actually fear aggressive. I mean she certainly sounds nothing like how you describe Molly at all. Yes she's always very forward so fear doesn't make much sense as the basis of her behavior.


Fear CAN be forward, in a "GET OUT OF MY WAY" kind of thing, but. Well. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6g_Hef-7U0

This is basically what Molly looks like. Only, well, more. (She's not a puppy)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6Eb3-0CSoU This is a pretty good video on reactivity in general (and reactive behavior does include more than fear or aggression) . The dog at about 2:15 is the closest to Molly I've found a video of. Or, well, 2 minutes onward fits - just the second dog is most like her.


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## dagwall

Eenypup said:


> For very good reason I've never claimed at being an expert on readings of body language  I'm learning as best as I can as I go! Really me misreading her is best case scenario in my mind, so I'm not offended in the slightest. Correct me if I'm wrong - but a dog who behaves in that way could likely be trained to behave more appropriately with children over time?
> 
> I'm going to try to search the Internet and become more familiar with the body language of dogs who are actually fear aggressive. I mean she certainly sounds nothing like how you describe Molly at all. Yes she's always very forward so fear doesn't make much sense as the basis of her behavior.


My last foster Daphne falls into the category of a dog who LIKES kids but isn't always appropriate with them. She would jump up on them because she wanted to give them kisses. Smaller kids she WOULD knock down doing this but all she'd do after that would be cover them in kisses. Anytime someone with kids came up to see her at events I would tell them she's very friendly but is still working on manners. She is likely to jump up on the kid, I'm holding her tight to stop that as much as possible but she's got springs for legs. Some were fine and some choose not to have their kids say hi. We worked on those behaviors while I had her and she did improve, given some more age and maturity I think she's going to be fantastic with kids. The couple who adopted her plan on having kids in the next few years and as long as they make some effort with her training she should be great.


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## trainingjunkie

kadylady said:


> Sounds like a good appointment overall elrohwen...at least gives you some new suggestions and hopefully puts your mind to ease about the medication stuff. I'm still really shocked by the suggestions from the FDSA group.
> 
> I'm curious if you used the Adaptil the other night and if you noticed anything at all with it? My agility instructor had a massage/chiro appointment with her BC right after Zoey's last appointment and the vet was going to change the bedding that she has for the dogs to lay on during their appointment and my friend told her she didn't need to, since our dogs are around each other all the time. Well for the whole appointment she kept noticing and commenting about how much more relaxed her dog was. He's not typically bad or anything during appointments but just typical restless and she said he was just so much more relaxed than normal (and he's been there a lot of these appointments). Near the end of her appointment her and the vet realized that since they didn't change the bedding it still had Adaptil spray on it from Zoey's appointment. Was interesting that they both noticed a difference in him without realizing that Adaptil was still on the bed, kind of like a blind trial I guess. Anyway, just wondering if you noticed anything at all?
> 
> I hope the Gentle leader helps. I actually just started using one on Skye and Zoey this weekend for when I walk all the dogs together. It's been a real pain trying to walk them together because the girls just amp each other up and goof around. I had been doing separate shorter walks but I hated having to cut it short, I'd rather be able to walk them both for longer. Wow, the gentle leaders are making such a difference. I'm so wishing I had tried them months ago! Obviously my long term goal is to be back on flat collars or harnesses but it was so nice to walk them together this weekend without all the crazies!


Where is the FDSA thread? How did I miss that?


----------



## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Where is the FDSA thread? How did I miss that?


It's on the alumni FB group. Probably two weeks ago? My guess is that I posted 7/17. It was mostly the same videos I shared here a year ago. The problem mostly went away over the winter and spring and came back this summer. I was so frustrated with him after a hike that I posted and got some pretty strong responses.


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> How long did it take you to get them used to the Gentle Leader? We did a couple little sessions with just putting it on and taking it off and he's totally fine with that now, but as soon as I try to walk (with the leash on his collar, not the GL) he is rubbing his face into the ground for a good 50ft. I ended up just dragging him on the walk at first and there were moments of drama trying to paw it off of his face. After a little while he just refused to walk, which isn't unusual if it's hot, but I think he was also just sick of the GL, so we went home. That was only one walk though, so I hope it gets better each time. I'm making sure to only treat and take it off when he's not bothering it.


Not long. I did a quick shaping session with them sticking their nose into the hole then treated for doing some easy behaviors with it on (sit, down, walk next to me, touch my hand) then clipped a leash on it and went for a walk. I took them one at a time the first time so they could get used to it. Had a pocket full of treats and treated every now and then for walking nice. They each stopped a few times to try and rub it off but I just picked the leash straight up to pull their head up off the ground while giving our "let's go" cue and then treated when they were walking nice again. Zoey was slightly more dramatic than Skye (I was expecting the reverse) and tried pushing her face along the grass a few times, but quickly realized that was more unpleasant than the thing on her face. I'm only using it for walks though so I put it on and we immediately start the walk, take it off when the walk is over. Therefore they should associate it as a precursor to the walk as they already do their harnesses and not hate it as much.


----------



## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> I updated on the FB group but not here. Watson went to the behaviorist on Saturday and she gave me a lot to think about. For one, she doesn't think he needs medication in any way. He is a naturally anxious dog sometimes, with his SA and being nervous in the vet's office, but he can settle down and he's not miserable, so she didn't think medication was warranted. For example, he never did trust her or get friendly with her during the appointment, because he knew he was at a vet, but he was able to lie next to me and even sleep for a good portion of the appointment as well.
> 
> As far as the over arousal thing goes, she said that to her it looks like he's searching for something, whether it's females in heat or animals or whatever. Even he doesn't seem to know what he's searching for though, since seeing prey or other dogs doesn't satisfy him. She said it's possible that neutering would fix this because it could be driven by hormones, but then it might not. She has seen neutering make dogs better, make dogs worse, and have no impact. But she put it out there.
> 
> She also said that I am frustrating him. By attempting to calm him down (working exiting the car calmly and not taking a single step if he can't be on a loose leash) I was making him more frustrated. She recommended going with the crazy and taking breaks to play little training games, and to walk on a short leash, but to also let him do what he needs to do. She also said that I need to be more clear when I communicate with him, especially when he's like this. For example, if I say his name he looks back at me, but he doesn't really know what I want (sometimes a cue follows his name, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it's a recall, sometimes it's not). Instead of using his name I need to use very specific cues like "wait" or "down" where he knows exactly what to do. She also recommended a "wait" instead of a recall off leash when he's getting too far away, because the recall was pulling him off of what he was sniffing and was frustrating for him.
> 
> She also recommended a Gentle Leader to prevent him pulling my arm out when he's like this, and she said it may calm him down too. I agree that when he's really crazy the prong came amp him up more (though it works well in other situations), so we're going to try that. It is easier to just go with the crazy when I can physically handle him better.
> 
> Overall it was a good visit. I heard some things I hadn't heard before and got some ideas that most people haven't mentioned. I will be much more conscious of what cues I use and what I expect from him, and I will try to realize when I'm frustrating him and try to do things that lower that frustration level. She didn't think there was really anything fundamentally wrong with him besides his mild anxiety over certain things.


I am glad you had a helpful session. For many things, a trainer needs to see you and the dog in real time. Video snippets only go so far. Seeing the dog and the handler and having a "real time" conversation is so, so different. I am super glad that you found someone who can coach you and help you.

I am curious about how she felt about the e-collar. Did she have any opinions about that?


----------



## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Not long. I did a quick shaping session with them sticking their nose into the hole then treated for doing some easy behaviors with it on (sit, down, walk next to me, touch my hand) then clipped a leash on it and went for a walk. I took them one at a time the first time so they could get used to it. Had a pocket full of treats and treated every now and then for walking nice. They each stopped a few times to try and rub it off but I just picked the leash straight up to pull their head up off the ground while giving our "let's go" cue and then treated when they were walking nice again. Zoey was slightly more dramatic than Skye (I was expecting the reverse) and tried pushing her face along the grass a few times, but quickly realized that was more unpleasant than the thing on her face. I'm only using it for walks though so I put it on and we immediately start the walk, take it off when the walk is over. Therefore they should associate it as a precursor to the walk as they already do their harnesses and not hate it as much.


Yeah, that's how I did it, but there was a lot more drama. We did the initial shaping sessions but beyond that I've only asked him to wear it while walking. I pretty much dragged him on his face for 20ft LOL I wasn't sure if attaching the leash to the GL itself would make things better or worse (I figured he would fight the pressure in addition to just having to wear it) so I started with the collar. I will probably try attaching to the GL today. He is a major drama queen. If I had food he would trot next to me no problem and do whatever I asked, but as soon as the food went away he was back to pawing at it. There were some moments when he walked just fine without my input and without drama, so hopefully those will get longer without too much fuss.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I am glad you had a helpful session. For many things, a trainer needs to see you and the dog in real time. Video snippets only go so far. Seeing the dog and the handler and having a "real time" conversation is so, so different. I am super glad that you found someone who can coach you and help you.
> 
> I am curious about how she felt about the e-collar. Did she have any opinions about that?


Yeah, the only hard thing is that it was in a vet's office, and he's pretty nervous/subdued there. I would have liked her to see it first hand, but we were able to talk everything through very thoroughly and I think I'm pretty good at reading and describing dog body language so I hope I explained things well. Much different than a 2min chat on FB where people assume a lot and it's impossible to talk through all of the details. Though that video that I posted on FB (I sent it to her as well) pretty thoroughly shows the issue.

For the ecollar, she asked how I trained it and how he reacted to the stim, and I made sure to say I worked through it with a trainer who agreed that it wasn't shutting him down. She also asked if his behavior was worse since I started using the ecollar, and I said it wasn't (he was bad last summer before I ever even thought of the ecollar). Overall she didn't seem too bothered by it and said it could increase his stress in some situations (being on edge waiting for me to recall him), but she didn't go on and on about it or anything, or tell me to stop using it for recall.


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## trainingjunkie

Will the behaviorist go out into the world and be with you while you train or was this a one-shot thing?


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Will the behaviorist go out into the world and be with you while you train or was this a one-shot thing?


There are follow ups and things, phone support, etc but there isn't a real world training session worked into it really. Though after working on my own for a bit I would like to do a follow up in the office and actually get outside in the parking lot at least. 

Honestly I was pretty surprised that there wasn't more real life training involved. I understand that most people probably come in with aggressive dogs and you don't want to set the dog up to bite someone, but in this case the behavior is pretty harmless so I imagined she would want to see it for herself. Though she did ask a million questions so maybe she feels like that's enough.

I think that half the time she wasn't 100% sure why I was even there. Hahaha. I got the impression that she was thinking "Yep, you have a young high energy hormonal dog. What do you want from him exactly?" Especially when I explained that we do classes and shows and he's functional though still excited in those environments.


----------



## elrohwen

Oh, and I do feel like I overpaid to have someone tell me my dog is basically normal, which is what I expected going into it. The people on FB freaked me out enough that I paid a lot of money to find out if my gut feeling was right.


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, that's how I did it, but there was a lot more drama. We did the initial shaping sessions but beyond that I've only asked him to wear it while walking. I pretty much dragged him on his face for 20ft LOL I wasn't sure if attaching the leash to the GL itself would make things better or worse (I figured he would fight the pressure in addition to just having to wear it) so I started with the collar. I will probably try attaching to the GL today. He is a major drama queen. If I had food he would trot next to me no problem and do whatever I asked, but as soon as the food went away he was back to pawing at it. There were some moments when he walked just fine without my input and without drama, so hopefully those will get longer without too much fuss.


I thought Skye would fight it to be honest and she really didn't. She flailed around for a minute when we first started walking but then she very quickly realized that if she just walked that was way better. I just pulled straight up, which lifted her head up and when she stopped, released and rewarded and kept walking. The act of walking is pretty high value to my dogs so I think that helps a lot.


----------



## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> I thought Skye would fight it to be honest and she really didn't. She flailed around for a minute when we first started walking but then she very quickly realized that if she just walked that was way better. I just pulled straight up, which lifted her head up and when she stopped, released and rewarded and kept walking. The act of walking is pretty high value to my dogs so I think that helps a lot.


It was 80deg and humid, so I think the value of walking was not very high yesterday. Haha. I'm going to give it a couple days on our usual walks and then try it somewhere more stimulating, like the park. I have a feeling he will be so interested in sniffing and getting out there that he won't notice it as much.


----------



## jade5280

When I was working with Gypsy on her reactivity I worked with a veterinary behaviorist (office visits) and one-on-one training with a regular trainer at the same time. I liked doing it that way because I could get professional behavioral mod. advice from the behaviorist and then the trainer could help and show me how to apply it IRL and also give their feedback after seeing her.


----------



## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> When I was working with Gypsy on her reactivity I worked with a veterinary behaviorist (office visits) and one-on-one training with a regular trainer at the same time. I liked doing it that way because I could get professional behavioral mod. advice from the behaviorist and then the trainer could help and show me how to apply it IRL and also give their feedback after seeing her.


Yeah, the behaviorist knows all of the trainers that I work with so I think she was comfortable that I have some other professional help. We've trained with one woman since he was a puppy and the behaviorist asked what that trainer thought of him (and if she had recommended a behaviorist) and I said that Pat thinks he's crazy and hyperactive, but that's about it. Difficult, but not a dog who needs special help.


----------



## Eenypup

So assuming that my descriptions are actually accurate (shocker but I don't trust myself lol), if Bennie IS overstimulated or just really rude excited... Wouldn't CCing with a high value treat be the exact opposite of the right thing to do? Her interest in children has dramatically increased since we started CCing with cheese. Certainly this won't calm down an over-excited dog. Maybe I should just leave well enough alone until I need to find out for sure how she feels? So I can't possibly make it worse.


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## CptJack

Nah. You're still basically rewarding her for calm behavior since if she gets 'over excited' you increase distance, so you're still good.


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## Eenypup

CptJack said:


> Nah. You're still basically rewarding her for calm behavior since if she gets 'over excited' you increase distance, so you're still good.


Okay awesome  Yeah she's gotten into looking at me as we pass kids (expecting cheese) so that's a definite plus. No matter how she feels, it doesn't matter because she's paying them no attention at that point, she wants her cheese darn it!!


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## CptJack

Getting ready to head out for the ...I don't know what to call it, meet in the public park and work on our own stuff, but do it amongst other people from the agility club? I'll be out until about 10 with Molly, but I will be updating and letting y'all know how it goes.


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## Eenypup

Ooh have fun!


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## pawsaddict

CptJack said:


> Getting ready to head out for the ...I don't know what to call it, meet in the public park and work on our own stuff, but do it amongst other people from the agility club? I'll be out until about 10 with Molly, but I will be updating and letting y'all know how it goes.


Have a blast! It sounds like a lot of fun


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## CptJack

So, the good, the bad and the ugly.

The good: She did pretty well, was able to be reasonably close to people and dogs even with them moving around and being exciting and a baseball game next to the field and a playground filled with kids just over the hill. She redirected quickly and easily when she DID react, and was basically pretty good. She even played a little bit of frisbee (off leash!), though only a very little bit and did some easy obedience work and was just good.

The bad: She realllllly wanted to chase after other dog's toys and there were a couple of points where a dog got closer than expected that she lunged. 

The ugly: Some BLEEPING woman noticed Molly was reactive. Molly was, at the time, laying in the grass about 6-8 feet away from other dogs, chewing grass and being more or less good and more or less relaxed. One silent lunge when a dog passed too close and I redirected her. Nothing major. Woman decides to 'help'. Her help involves going to get an easy walk harness and gentle leader and talking to me about those while walking *right* into Molly's space to feed her. Talking about it being okay because she's facing sideways, while Molly is cowering, growling, barking, and - eating, but still. THEN she starts talking to me about keeping Molly under threshold and sometimes just leaving when it was too bad. LADY, _you_ breached the threshold, YOU sent her over, from laying down and chewing on grass and relaxed to THIS. _YOU_. (And in fairness, I let her - won't happen again.)

We did leave about then, because you know, after that little encounter Molly was *mentally gone* and there was no recovering from it. 

I do not know what qualifications that woman had, but I am 900% certain if I run into her again she's at bigger risk from me than Molly. Not really - I'm timid, I'm polite - but there is no way, no how, I am EVER letting a situation like that occur again. And it wasn't like 'here's cookie' and moving on. She STAYED THERE, with her hand in Molly's face and talking at me while my dog was tail tucked, crouched, hackled up, and growling. 

WHO DOES THAT?

More mad at myself than her (really). I honestly went from a dog who was doing decently and playing ball and disc (most of it on leash) and willing to do some obedience work with people and dogs around, to a dog who was just falling apart. And that's my fault first, for not protecting her (and again, I know danged well why I didn't do anything like get out of there and it was in part because at that point I had HER equipment on my dog and needed it off and in part the circle of other dogs that were now a problem and part just me frozen in shock. I WILL handle it better next time), but OMFG, I am just. ANGRY.


----------



## trainingjunkie

I haven't read every thread you have about Molly, so forgive me if this is unhelpful...

When I go to classes or seminars, I always bring a collapsible crate with a good cover. Always. Even if the class is inside. When my dog isn't working, he/she/they is/are in the crate. Covered. There are just SO many helpful people that need to be avoided. If my dog is tucked away, he/she isn't bothered by the interference.

It will all be okay. Helpful people are the worst.


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## pawsaddict

So she put a harness and a gentle leader on Molly? That would send me WAY over the edge. Who does that?! She is lucky that Molly wasn't another dog with less control (and keep in mind that the control she exhibited is thanks to the work that you have put in with her). Next time she pulls that stunt, she could get seriously hurt and she would totally deserve it.


----------



## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> I haven't read every thread you have about Molly, so forgive me if this is unhelpful...
> 
> When I go to classes or seminars, I always bring a collapsible crate with a good cover. Always. Even if the class is inside. When my dog isn't working, he/she/they is/are in the crate. Covered. There are just SO many helpful people that need to be avoided. If my dog is tucked away, he/she isn't bothered by the interference.
> 
> It will all be okay. Helpful people are the worst.


Yeah, next time we're bringing the crate and I'm bringing Kylie as well as Molly. I decided/thought about both as soon as I was back in the car. What actually happened here was that it was supposed to just be a casual get together and my ONLY intent was for Molly to hang out, play a little and leave. Let her relax and work a bit and go. It didn't happen that way. There will be a crate next time we do this and i will be a lot more prepared to tell anyone to sod off. Unfortunately I also went in predisposed to trust the people there. And found an idiot. 

So basically: I know better, but the confirmation is helpful, and thank you.

I'm not entirely sure I'm doing this again, ever, but realize that's in part me being angry and slightly hysterical and that some deep breaths and I'll get back to it. 

And you're probably right. Things will be fine. I hope. 



pawsaddict said:


> So she put a harness and a gentle leader on Molly? That would send me WAY over the edge. Who does that?! She is lucky that Molly wasn't another dog with less control (and keep in mind that the control she exhibited is thanks to the work that you have put in with her). Next time she pulls that stunt, she could get seriously hurt and she would totally deserve it.


No, she went off and got it and handed it to me to put on and 'try' because in the case of the easy walk Molly is a weird size and some dogs DO respond well to GL and I hadn't even thought about one with her. Which was fine in and of itself, except once the harness was on she was IN MOLLY"S FACE, (GL never made it near Molly and I'm not sorry) talking about how she wasn't confrontational and was coming in sideways and blah blah knows what she's doing and I had no easy avenue of retreat AND her crap on my dog. 

Bottom line? It wouldn't have been bad if she'd backed off instead of standing there and lecturing me about her dog skills, telling me where I had to shop and who to support, and then lecturing at me about not maintaining a threshold for Molly (?!?!). While Molly cowered, growled, barked, and growled THROUGH eating. 

Molly HAD BEEN okay and this woman was between me and the car! I couldn't have left immediately if I'd wanted to!


----------



## CptJack

And for all I know this woman *is* a trainer of some sort. I'm really not sure what her tie here, is. I have never seen her at agility anything before. She may know what she's talking about, but somehow that really doesn't make me feel better.

Nor did her determination to have me work with someone but the person who actually knows my dog and is perfectly qualified for and has done this sort of work before. 

Or the fact that she was wandering around tossing frisbees every which was by the time we arrived, and didn't even have a dog in sight.

But mostly, really, it was the Molly encounter.


----------



## pawsaddict

Ahhh, I see. Maybe she is qualified to give training advice, but you know what, you didn't ask for it. And I think it's the assumption that you didn't really know what you are doing or that she knew better that bugs me....maybe if she approached it differently, but it sounds like she was pretty forceful and intrusive about it. 

And you would think someone qualified would pick up on Molly's body language and growling...


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## CptJack

The... patronization didn't sit well with me, either, nor did the force and, I guess I want to call it arrogance?

The other thing you said... yeah. I don't know. I mean, Molly WAS taking the food, but she was half way to flat against the ground, her ears were back, her tail was tucked, she was growling and just really clearly miserable. I don't know what the reasoning there was. Like I can't even begin to puzzle out what kind of thought process says 'Yeah, I'll stay here and keep doing this. That's a good idea'. 

And no, I didn't even remotely ask for it.


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## pawsaddict

Don't let this discourage you from going back, though. If she (or someone else) gets in Molly's space - or yours, for that matter - just tell 'em where to go.

I think that a crate is a fabulous idea as well.

Also, it sounds like Molly handled it very well. Not that you want to put her in that situation again, but from what you have described, she did awesome even though the situation was far from ideal. And she probably picked up in your uneasiness about it as well. So kudos, Molly!


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## CptJack

Yeah, Molly gets all the credit in the world for not biting her. 

My husband also informed me that he TOLD THIS WOMAN that it was a bad idea on her way back with the harness and suggested he just hand it to me so Molly wasn't stressed out by someone in her face and she ignored him. So, that's nice. 

I think I feel better now, though. There's a plan for round 2. Kylie can give Molly breaks and work on some stuff, and I'm more prepared to fend off dummies.


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## pawsaddict

Well, if that's her way of dealing with someone who *actually knows the dog*, she's definitely going to get bit one day....or punched.

Round 2 will be much better. I'm sure of it


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## elrohwen

All I have to say is that the woman is a know-it-all idiot. I can't even fathom why someone would stand next to a dog who is growling and clearly uncomfortable and think that they were helping the situation. I'm sorry that happened :-(


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## elrohwen

Last night in obedience class the instructors and I realized that Watson is lame. Boo :-( I'm sure he did something stupid while playing with the puppy. Basically he's not extending his rear hind leg fully and kind of stands with it under his body. He was also clearly uncomfortable with sitting for long periods of time.

Despite not feeling well, he won a couple competitions! We did one where you heeled back and forth and had to sit/down/call front whenever the instructor called it out. Watson was the speediest and ended up winning. Then we did recall races (dogs did recalls at the same time as another dog recalling on the opposite side of a fence) and Watson won that too. He was a little slower than the keeshond coming in, but sat faster and won. He *loves* recall races. He even did it from a stand-stay because I didn't want to make him sit, and he was perfect. He did completely lose the stay contest though when he tried to get up and flirt with the female dogs next to him. The keeshond girl held her stay and looked right at her mom, despite Watson being in her face. The border collie looked uncomfortable but did ok, and her owner said she was shocked that her dog didn't correct Watson because she usually has pretty low tolerance for dogs in her face. I wish she had corrected him - would've served him right. Haha. 

He's such a good boy though and tries so hard. I had someone ask me why he wears a prong and I said just for control, I don't train obedience with it or anything. And she said "But he's so well behaved! I wouldn't think that you would need it!" Made me feel really good!


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## CptJack

Molly is *off* as heck today. I'm sure my mood being a bit weird still isn't helping, but she's *clingy*. You know the dog who barely likes any physical contact at all? Yeah, she spent two hours following me around (normal) and pushing the top of her head into any available body part and when she finally gave up on me when she went wrapped up around Bug to sleep. Molly has never been into sleeping with the other dogs :/ 

Don't get me wrong, I'm fully willing to stress her out if it *teaches* her something - it's just she learned nothing here, just got stressed out/freaked out. 

Also kind of bugged because it's been forever since she really cared about _people_ instead of just dogs. 

Oh well. We'll handle it. She's still in a better position with the people stuff than Kylie was at her age. But argh.

____

Poor Watson and his poor leg, but he really is a *really* good boy and you have done an amazing job.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Molly is *off* as heck today. I'm sure my mood being a bit weird still isn't helping, but she's *clingy*. You know the dog who barely likes any physical contact at all? Yeah, she spent two hours following me around (normal) and pushing the top of her head into any available body part and when she finally gave up on me when she went wrapped up around Bug to sleep. Molly has never been into sleeping with the other dogs :/
> 
> Also kind of bugged because it's been forever since she really cared about _people_ instead of just dogs.
> 
> Oh well. We'll handle it. She's still in a better position with the people stuff than Kylie was at her age. But argh.


You think it's definitely because of the crazy obnoxious lady last night? That's too bad. Poor Molly.



> Poor Watson and his poor leg, but he really is a *really* good boy and you have done an amazing job.


Thanks! It's so so nice when we're in sync and working together. When he's in the right mental state to work, he really does try so hard and really wants to make me happy.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> You think it's definitely because of the crazy obnoxious lady last night? That's too bad. Poor Molly.


I don't know. It could be weather or she could just be super tired after being busy yesterday. I've got to go buy a harness this week so I guess we'll see how she does with it, when we do that. I'm giving her some time to decompress. I'm starting to reach the conclusion that I just break puppies, but I'm pretty sure that's just frustration talking. Not at her,I just feel bad for her. 



> Thanks! It's so so nice when we're in sync and working together. When he's in the right mental state to work, he really does try so hard and really wants to make me happy.


Watson really is a pretty awesome dog, even with the silliness and I love him a lot.


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## elrohwen

If anyone is interested, Denise Fenzi's "Dog Sports Skills 3" is out and it's all about play. I'm about 1/3 of the way through and it's a really good read. I thought the first two were a bit overly basic without enough specific skills. The Play book is loaded with specifics about how to build drive and train dogs to tug and play fetch correctly and cooperatively. I just finished the section that walks you step by step through teaching tug and it's given me some great ideas for my dogs. They like to tug, Hazel more than Watson, but can be ho-hum about it in some situations. Now I know the next steps to take.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Watson really is a pretty awesome dog, even with the silliness and I love him a lot.


:-D I tell him every day that he's my favorite. 

I already feel like Hazel is much more of a partner - she is so mature and works with me easily and naturally, and looks to me for what we are doing. She is awesome.

But then Watson is like my sweet child who is also a huge handful, and I love him even when I want to strangle him. It's probably because he was my first, but also because he is just so charming and full of personality when he isn't being a butthead.


----------



## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> :-D I tell him every day that he's my favorite.
> 
> I already feel like Hazel is much more of a partner - she is so mature and works with me easily and naturally, and looks to me for what we are doing. She is awesome.
> 
> But then Watson is like my sweet child who is also a huge handful, and I love him even when I want to strangle him. It's probably because he was my first, but also because he is just so charming and full of personality when he isn't being a butthead.


How is your bond with Watson compared to Hazel? Do you still feel like Watson is your '#1'? I'm sure your bond will change as Hazel grows, but I'm curious. 

My bond is stronger with Ryker and I can't imagine another dog even reaching that level. I love Gypsy, but it's not the same. I'm not sure if it's because she's difficult or if it's because I didn't raise her from puppyhood. Maybe because Ryker was my first as well. I don't know if I will ever have as strong of a bond with another dog even if I did raise it from a puppy.


----------



## elrohwen

At this point I'm definitely more bonded with Watson, but Hazel is only 4 months so just based on time I've spent with them it's not surprising. I do think Watson will always hold a special place in my heart. Part of that is his personality, part is that he was here first, and part is probably because I have poured so much blood, sweat, and tears into building our relationship.

Hazel is so much easier in many ways, and I have a feeling that we will have a much easier relationship, especially as far as doing sports and things. If I weren't interested in doing sports, I think she could end up as the "easy" dog who is sort of on the back burner. I already notice that when we go places she is basically ignored because I have to put so much effort into managing Watson. And then I look and there she is, sitting so politely and staring at me with such love, like "Look at me being so good! Can I have cheese too?" But when I work with her on her own I think "This little dog is awesome and so much fun!" I think doing sports with her will allow us to really develop a strong bond that I might not have if I didn't do that stuff.

So I think ultimately Hazel and I will be more connected, more of a team and a partnership than I will ever have with Watson. But I think I will probably always feel more deeply about him if only because he's sort of my special needs child who needs me more than she will ever need me.


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> ....who needs me more than she will ever need me.


This above pretty much sums it up for me and my dogs. 

I got Luke 1st at 11.5 weeks, Zoey 2nd at 5 months and Skye 3rd at 7.5 weeks. My bond is strongest with Zoey. She needs *me* more than the other 2 ever will. She has some people fear and anxiety and she just needs me differently than the other 2. She sticks with me. She is my dog. Luke and Skye are our dogs. Zoey also came at a difficult time in my life when I needed her just as much as she needed me and I know that plays a huge part in it as well. She is the reason for my "who rescued who" sticker on my van.


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## jade5280

Ryker definitely needs me more than Gypsy does so maybe there's something to that.


----------



## CptJack

On one hand, my bond with Molly has grown, changed and deepened considerably since we've been working on her fear/reactivity stuff. I loved her before then, but she's definitely become something special to me with all the work that we've been doing and I think it's mutually beneficial because she's learning to trust me more, too.

OTOH, Kylie's MY DOG in every possible way and honestly her most serious issue was not wanting people to touch her at all. Now, I think if she'd been cornered the way Molly was last night she'd have snapped, but overall she's a perfectly well adjusted, happy, loving, sweet, little dog. If you asked me for a why with her, I honestly couldn't give it to you. Just that she's very, very fundamentally my dog and I am her person.

Little bit of Thud in there, lately, as we learn how to communicate and he learns how to keep his brain in his head (and gets more mature). Frustration was a roadblock there for a while, and we have a pretty good personality clash that gets in our way a little, but we're getting there - almost three years on, LOL.

Jack was almost... too perfect/easy? I adore him but he's such a gentle, quiet, unassuming presence in our lives that he doesn't *demand* anything and gets a bit lost in the shuffle. Bug loves the heck out of everyone but is definitely my husband's dog through and through.


----------



## Alla

Oohh poor Watson. :\ And Molly. Bad news all over the place lately, huh. 

I have some good news I want to share!  We went to the dog park today after dark (and it is not lit), knowing there wouldn't be any other dogs there. I took treats to work on her recall and just do some training. 

She did amazing! Even though I've never ever worked her in darkness before, she did everything I asked for including recalls. Then in the middle another dog (a Scotty!) showed up and I released her to play. They played a bit but lost interest in each other very quickly, and I resumed training with Porsche. Her focus - off leash, with another dog around, in near pitch black darkness - was super cool. Did her recalls past that other dog, did sits and downs and touches and pivots on a rock (lmao), and we even worked a tuck sit and left/right. When I would release her to sniff and explore (can you imagine the smells after a full day of dogs in a dog park? and there were frogs hopping around too!), she would either not leave and keep following me, wanting to do more stuff, or she'd go and sniff a short distance away, coming back to work at my first call. 

It wasn't enthusiastic work, she wasn't speedy or polished or anything, and sometimes it took saying the command more than once, but given all the distractions (and the fact that I've never asked her to work in the dog park before) she did super great.


----------



## Laurelin

kadylady said:


> This above pretty much sums it up for me and my dogs.
> 
> I got Luke 1st at 11.5 weeks, Zoey 2nd at 5 months and Skye 3rd at 7.5 weeks. My bond is strongest with Zoey. She needs *me* more than the other 2 ever will. She has some people fear and anxiety and she just needs me differently than the other 2. She sticks with me. She is my dog. Luke and Skye are our dogs. Zoey also came at a difficult time in my life when I needed her just as much as she needed me and I know that plays a huge part in it as well. She is the reason for my "who rescued who" sticker on my van.


That's my Mia. Mia is not the first I've had of my crew. She was my only puppy though. I don't know how to explain her. She's special and awesome. 

Hank is fun and a really neat, intense, sweet dog. I love working with him. I love working with Summer too. She is exceptionally well behaved and weird and awesome. 

If you know me in real life you'd probably think mia is the least favorite because she is left at home a lot. Mia is almost universally the least favorite of mine among friends/families. She's not an easy dog and not a very nice dog. But there is something about her. Just a glint in her eye. Gets me every time. Nikki came close to that bond.... a step above in a lot of ways. But Mia is something else and I don't know that it will happen again. She's my partner and my best friend in the world. We get each other maybe because I'm the only one that really gets her, I'm not sure. She'd be a hard dog to rehome honestly. I'm not sure she could go through it. And I'm going to be a mess when she's gone.


----------



## elrohwen

Lately Hazel's prey drive has picked up a lot, and her mission in life is to find and flush the mourning doves who hang around our house.

Today at lunch she flushed one, and then recalled off mid-chase :whoo:

I was so mad that I didn't have any food on me, but she seemed happy enough with snuggles.


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## CptJack

Wow! GO HAZEL!


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

GOOD JOB Hazel! That is impressive! Come teach Kairi please!

Ember is nuts about her frisbee. Like absolutely intense nuts. She will bring it back.. sort of in the general vicinity (I'm still trying to figure out how to make her bring it back all the way) then drop it. Then she will proceed to obsessively chomp on grass until I throw the frisbee again. What the weird behavior is this?


----------



## elrohwen

I would try having two frisbees. Encourage her to come all the back to you by showing her the second one. Or just toss the second one in the other direction as she gets near you. She will drop the one she has to run after the second one and then you can start waiting her out to drop it near you. This worked super well for teaching Hazel to retrieve tennis balls and bring them all the way back.

ETA: she needs to teach Watson this skill before she teaches Kairi. Haha


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## CptJack

If she's really crazy about it, you can also just flat out refuse to get it and leave. I'd try the two discs thing, try calling her back or whatever, but once she's done that some just flat out end the game and she should quickly figure out that bringing it back is to keep the game going. The grass chomping is probably just excitement displacement/tension release.


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## CptJack

I take back every bad thing I've ever said about Molly and cats. I suspect the girls are holding a grudge, but this guy's been hanging around for a while (he's neutered, well fed, and flea free; I suspect he belongs to a neighbor) and I et him in for a bit tonight. Um. Dog's got a crush.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

elrohwen said:


> I would try having two frisbees. Encourage her to come all the back to you by showing her the second one. Or just toss the second one in the other direction as she gets near you. She will drop the one she has to run after the second one and then you can start waiting her out to drop it near you. This worked super well for teaching Hazel to retrieve tennis balls and bring them all the way back.
> 
> ETA: she needs to teach Watson this skill before she teaches Kairi. Haha


I will try the two frisbees and see how that goes. My "first" dog was a Labx and auto retrieved. Kairi never cared for fetch, just tug. Ember needs to bring that crap back if I'm gonna throw it again...



CptJack said:


> If she's really crazy about it, you can also just flat out refuse to get it and leave. I'd try the two discs thing, try calling her back or whatever, but once she's done that some just flat out end the game and she should quickly figure out that bringing it back is to keep the game going. The grass chomping is probably just excitement displacement/tension release.


Oh I'm sure the grass thing is displaced tension/excitement. I just kind of have to laugh at the weirdness of it. If I leave she will follow me. If I come back she runs back to the frisbee to chomp more grass around it. I guess I've spent too much time retrieving it for her and she thinks I'm supposed to come get it, thus the tense grass eating weirdness. We'll see if she figures it out better after the two discs thing. Her intensity is so fun.


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## CptJack

If the two disc thing doesn't work, just work on teaching her a give and backchaining it. Should go fast since she wants to play. If necessary tug the disc, ask for the give, toss it, and go. So the tug is the reward for the retrieve, the next toss is the reward for the out. Then drop the tugging in the middle.


----------



## CptJack

We're having another train at the park session, Tuesday at 8. I'm going with Kylie, Molly, a tunnel, a crate, and my husband. The crate will be available as a safe place for her, and I will use it as necessary to let her decompress. She can either sit with my husband, or with me, depending on how she's doing while the other of us works with/watches Kylie. Behaviorist/training work for reactivity is still in the works, but I don't expect it to start until we're back from vacation, since we have to coordinate three people. 

I also feel, intuitively, like I am making this situation with Molly worse by not trusting her. The tighter my grip on her, the more she reacts. The more she reacts, the less I trust her, the tighter my metaphorical hold on her. We were at the park *yesterday* (different park) and had two bikes come out of nowhere, over the hill and within 10 feet of her, like bats out of heck and she didn't bat an eyelash. She's made some danged good decisions about other dogs and responding to them when she has the freedom to do so. Consistently.

If I can't do it safely and with enough clearance when we go to this thing, I won't do it, but. I"m taking a long line and a ball. My ultimate goal is to play with her and work with her in five minute increments (long line (short long line) or leash) and then crate her to decompress between. 

The long line is because, frankly speaking, the less choice and freedom I give her, the more her only option (in her eyes) seems to be 'REACT'. 

Again: If I can't do it with clearance that keeps things safe for everyone, I'm not doing it. If I can find that space? I'm going to try. At this meet up, at our regular park, whatever. I have GOT to, besides actively working on this with training, loosen up with her. I've just. Got to. I'm almost, at this point, looking forward to the work with the trainer more because I think it will give me confidence in Molly and with Molly than for what it will actually teach Molly (some of that too, though).

At some point her lack of confidence killed my confidence in her and it's just been this self-feeding cycle of suck, since.


----------



## pawsaddict

CptJack said:


> I take back every bad thing I've ever said about Molly and cats. I suspect the girls are holding a grudge, but this guy's been hanging around for a while (he's neutered, well fed, and flea free; I suspect he belongs to a neighbor) and I et him in for a bit tonight. Um. Dog's got a crush.


That is such a cute picture!!! 

Sending good vibes your way for Tuesday to go well.


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## CptJack

pawsaddict said:


> That is such a cute picture!!!
> 
> Sending good vibes your way for tonight to go well.


I love that picture so much!

And thnks! It's actually Tuesday so we've got some time (and Kylie has an agility lesson Sunday!) but I'm going to play around at closer locations first, anyway. And - thanks.


----------



## elrohwen

Good luck with Molly! I know you know this, but just try to keep her far enough away from her triggers that you feel like you can trust her to make good choices. If she does react, just move back more, no biggie. 

And punch the annoying lady in the face if she tries to bother you


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Good luck with Molly! I know you know this, but just try to keep her far enough away from her triggers that you feel like you can trust her to make good choices. If she does react, just move back more, no biggie.
> 
> And punch the annoying lady in the face if she tries to bother you


Yep! To both!

I feel like I'm jumping off the high dive, even though I have no intention of not maintaining good distance both to avoid her reacting and practicing it but also for safety. In theory and intellectually, I'm sure this will be fine. Emotionally, *I* have been trained to have an unpleasant adrenaline response to this crap. I'm the person so the onus is on me to break the cycle but eeeergh.


----------



## elrohwen

Last night I took Hazel to the park for some training. We had so much fun! It was basically empty (I saw two other people briefly) which was surprising, considering this place has at least 5 baseball fields, a volleyball court, basketball, tennis, etc and there are usually a million people. So I took the opportunity to let her play on the playground, because the last time we tried she was just mobbed by kids and I didn't get a chance to train. She climbed up all of the equipment, and even put her paws up on things that moved, like the teeter (one that is designed to balance flat, with springs, instead of tipping one way or the other, so it was constantly moving), and a spinning thing (where you stand on it and spin yourself around while holding on to the handle). No fear! Then we went into the field and did some heeling and played around, then went home. 

I also realized that taking Hazel places to train is so much fun, and for so long I have been miserable trying to do the same with Watson. I just know going into it that he's going to be wild and not want to work with me, and I'm going to use all of my patience and spend most of the time being frustrated. I don't know if he would be much better if I had done more of this stuff when he was little. It's not like I didn't take him to a million places and ask him to behave, but I don't think I really trained fun stuff with him, just manners. I think it's mostly his personality. Having Hazel gives me more freedom to just do fun stuff with Watson, like train at home or go to our usual obedience classes, and not worry about the other stuff. If he can't train at the park or somewhere new, oh well, I have another dog who can do that. And it's really really nice to have fun training again outside of my basement.


----------



## pawsaddict

CptJack said:


> And thnks! It's actually Tuesday so we've got some time (and Kylie has an agility lesson Sunday!)


Yeah, I saw that right after I posted. Went back to fix it right away, but you're way to quick and I am a lowsy phone typer, haha.


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## CptJack

pawsaddict said:


> Yeah, I saw that right after I posted. Went back to fix it right away, but you're way to quick and I am a lowsy phone typer, haha.


You would not believe what the phone does to me sometimes! Not even speed, just bad.


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## pawsaddict

CptJack said:


> You would not believe what the phone does to me sometimes! Not even speed, just bad.


I totally know what you mean. I wish I could blame my errors on spellcheck, but nope, I am just that bad.


----------



## elrohwen

I video taped a heeling session this morning with Hazel. She's looking better! She's much more comfortable with my hand on her face and is starting to push for the treat consistently. And look at her butt go on the turn! 

She also still can't do "down" without my hand luring her all the way to the ground. I've been such a slacker on that.


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## CptJack

Hazel looks *fantastic*. She also looks like a total sweetheart, who is catching on fast and HAPPY about it. You seem a lot happier and a lot more relaxed than you have in some of your other videos, too.


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## CrimsonAccent

Any general training games that are good with two dogs and one person?

I've been sooooooo slacking with Cupcake and Donut. I'm hoping once we moving out in a couple of weeks it will be somewhat simplified (one less dog and a one dog to person ration) as far as separating them for training goes so that should help. 

It's embarrassing but Donut basically kinda sorta knows sit and down and that leash/harness=going on an adventure. To be fair to myself I have an 8 am and 6 pm class and work in between those hours. But still. Slacking. To a more productive fall semester 

P.S. Any good, free sites/plans for basic obedience? I know some have been recced before. At least if I have a checklist/outline I might hold myself more accountable.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Hazel looks *fantastic*. She also looks like a total sweetheart, who is catching on fast and HAPPY about it. You seem a lot happier and a lot more relaxed than you have in some of your other videos, too.


I'm more relaxed because she's so much less stressful to work with. I just have no idea what to do with Watson sometimes or how to react appropriately when he's not engaged and has no interest in doing anything with me. And the more I learn the more I am realizing that being more exciting myself is counter productive to making him want to work with me. I have tons of training videos where we are relaxed and playing and having fun, but I don't post those. I'm never stressed out while training Hazel, because she's always engaged with me and into the game, so it's fun and easy.


----------



## elrohwen

CrimsonAccent said:


> Any general training games that are good with two dogs and one person?
> 
> I've been sooooooo slacking with Cupcake and Donut. I'm hoping once we moving out in a couple of weeks it will be somewhat simplified (one less dog and a one dog to person ration) as far as separating them for training goes so that should help.
> 
> It's embarrassing but Donut basically kinda sorta knows sit and down and that leash/harness=going on an adventure. To be fair to myself I have an 8 am and 6 pm class and work in between those hours. But still. Slacking. To a more productive fall semester
> 
> P.S. Any good, free sites/plans for basic obedience? I know some have been recced before. At least if I have a checklist/outline I might hold myself more accountable.


What about the training levels? It walks you through behaviors very specifically and what criteria you are looking for.
http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/


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## jade5280

Omg why is Hazel so big already!? Also, looooove that beautiful long and elegant tail!  I didn't realize that spaniels had such long tails.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Omg why is Hazel so big already!? Also, looooove that beautiful long and elegant tail!  I didn't realize that spaniels had such long tails.


I know! She's over 20lbs now. She's getting way too big.

I think spaniel tails are more variable than people think, because they've been docking so long and nobody knows what they really look like. I've seen a number of tailed dogs and none of them seem to have such a long whippy tail, but it could be how they carry it. Hazel's mom's housemate has a tail but he carries it low and wags it gently, where Hazel carries it high and whips it around. I can't wait until she gets a pretty fringe of hair.


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## CrimsonAccent

elrohwen said:


> What about the training levels? It walks you through behaviors very specifically and what criteria you are looking for.
> http://sue-eh.ca/page24/page23/


Thanks so much, this was actually the place I was thinking of 

P.S. I can't believe there are MORE Watson babies in the world!


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## elrohwen

CrimsonAccent said:


> Thanks so much, this was actually the place I was thinking of
> 
> P.S. I can't believe there are MORE Watson babies in the world!


I know! 14 is a lot of crazy Watson babies. I'm starting to think about whether I want to drive down to NJ to visit this litter when they are around 7 weeks.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> I know! 14 is a lot of crazy Watson babies. I'm starting to think about whether I want to drive down to NJ to visit this litter when they are around 7 weeks.


How are the pups doing? Have you heard anything from the owners? I think you had said that a couple of them thought they were a handful. Did he sire 2 litters? I must have missed that part!


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> How are the pups doing? Have you heard anything from the owners? I think you had said that a couple of them thought they were a handful. Did he sire 2 litters? I must have missed that part!


He did! His second litter was born Friday night. So 9 in Hazel's litter and 5 in the new litter. I haven't talked to the breeder yet other than a quick message over FB, but I should contact her and see if I can visit them at some point. I didn't know her before the breeding, but she's been in the breed and knows everybody else.

We have a FB group set up for Hazel's litter and everyone seems to be doing well! Some are a little wild and crazy but I think it's more that the owners are clueless than anything else. On the whole they are all good puppies and very confident and friendly so far. I haven't heard lately from the owners of the two boys who were the most nuts as baby puppies, so not sure how they are doing.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> I haven't heard lately from the owners of the two boys who were the most nuts as baby puppies, so not sure how they are doing.


They dead.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> They dead.


ROFL!!!!

One of them went to the coolest home. It's a gay couple in NYC (Brooklyn I think). One's a doctor, one owns his own business that is dog friendly and only a couple miles from their fabulous beautiful loft apartment. I asked the breeder if I could go and live with them too.


----------



## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> ROFL!!!!
> 
> One of them went to the coolest home. It's a gay couple in NYC (Brooklyn I think). One's a doctor, one owns his own business that is dog friendly and only a couple miles from their fabulous beautiful loft apartment. I asked the breeder if I could go and live with them too.


Aw that's so awesome! I just found Ryker's sire via Facebook and he lives only an hour from us. We are going to meet up with them at some point. I must have repressed the fact that his sires name is Hellboy...go figure that would be his name. I talked to them a bit about his SA and they haven't had any issues as extreme as Ryker, but I guess he was a total PITA when he was younger as well.


----------



## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Aw that's so awesome! I just found Ryker's sire via Facebook and he lives only an hour from us. We are going to meet up with them at some point. I must have repressed the fact that his sires name is Hellboy...go figure that would be his name. I talked to them a bit about his SA and they haven't had any issues as extreme as Ryker, but I guess he was a total PITA when he was younger as well.


Yeah, it's so helpful to meet relatives. I remember thinking Watson was so wild because we went to shows and everybody's female puppies were so good. Then we saw this other dog being walked for an hour around the show site and thought, "Hey, he's wild just like Watson!" Then I learned that it's his cousin who is only 3 months older. Made me feel a heck of a lot better!


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## elrohwen

I'm doing the FDSA Engagement class right now with both dogs, and today was our first session working at what Denise calls "Stage 2" (basically rewarding with food or toys for the dog pushing for engagement). I've tried to work with Watson before on engagement but I pushed too fast and asked for too much. I also didn't have a game plan for what to do when he checked out, because I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice there. So we're going to try this method and stick to it! So far good results. Watson was offering "work" on his own by the end (standing on his hind legs is his favorite trick and something I use as a secondary reinforcer). Hazel had a brain fart after I took her leash off which isn't like her - I think she thought I dropped a treat - but otherwise she was good.

And for CptJack, I think this shows me a bit more happy and relaxed working with Watson 

Watson:





Hazel:


----------



## CptJack

You really do seem like you're having fun. That makes me crazy happy.

--

Tonight was, erm, dare I say fine? Yeah, it was fine. 

We got there about half an hour early and let the dogs play frisbee in the empty baseball field. There ended up being like 10 dogs present, I think? Molly was gold. She was able to be within a reasonable distance (3-4 feet) of them, hold stays around them, her focus on me was out of this world. She lost is precisely ONCE, and that was when some dude who was not part of our group walked his GSD up the outside of the fence (the area isn't enclosed but there are chain link partitions around the fields), on a flexi, while on his cellphone. HIs dog rushed the fence, and Molly responded. Otherwise? Gold. Just... gold. 

She even took treats from someone she's never met before. Who asked first, and fed Molly the treats behind her back, which was just genius. 



















Really good trip all around. Also, wow Molly looks tiny.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Watson seemed to be doing a pretty good job to me! Also.. Hazel looks like a LOT of fun to work with!

Glad everything went well with Molly, too!

Ember is learning to bring the ball to me in the house. I've been waiting her out until she decides to bring it to me within arms reach and not try to grab it back. So far, so good. It's a little more rough with frisbee outside. Ember's frisbee is her true love and she has a really hard time deciding if she wants to give it up. But she did bring it to me a few times.. eventually. Been working on some backchaining too, which has probably been helping. Two frisbees/ball was not working for her.


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## CptJack

It's hard for them when they're that into a toy, I think. I know Molly's still a little conflicted. She knows she wants the frisbee toss most, but sometimes she'll drop and grab again, or be really slow in putting it down and stepping back for me to take it. She wants me to throw it, but she also just REALLY WANTS IT. I kind of suspect it would be like asking Kylie to spit out a piece of steak.

Ember'll get it.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Uhm. That describes Ember 100%. She absolutely wants me to throw it. But it is her precious and she can't seem to let it go sometimes.


----------



## elrohwen

Good job Molly!



Why didn't the two frisbee game work? Was she not willing to give up the one she had for another one? Watson is like that - the one he has is more valuable than the one I have.


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## Kyllobernese

I know the two balls method worked for Kris. Before she would bring the ball back and drop it but then grab it back up when I reached for it. A few sessions with two balls and she would drop the first ball waiting for me to throw the second. Now of course, I have to teach her to hold the dumbbell until I take it from her so I hope she gets the difference between a ball and a dumbbell. She is just at the stage of taking and holding the dumbbell right now so no problem yet. I think if I take it in slow easy steps we will be alright.


----------



## CptJack

I'm not Ember (duh) and don't live with her but the two discs thing didn't work for Molly primarily because frisbees are flat and stack. Which means she could grab the second (or grab for it and sometimes get it) without letting go of the first. If I actually threw the second one she'd just keep the first and then have two in her mouth. No reason to let go, because she could, and knew she could, get both. 

I just did it with tug. Taught tug and an out long before disc was on the future, used a soft disc as a tug, tugged with her when she brought it back, outed it as a tug and then flung again. She quickly worked out the chain, and the whole thing was rewarding (tug for return, throw for the out) so it worked out all right for her.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I'm not Ember (duh) and don't live with her but the two discs thing didn't work for Molly primarily because frisbees are flat and stack. Which means she could grab the second (or grab for it and sometimes get it) without letting go of the first. If I actually threw the second one she'd just keep the first and then have two in her mouth. No reason to let go, because she could, and knew she could, get both.
> 
> I just did it with tug. Taught tug and an out long before disc was on the future, used a soft disc as a tug, tugged with her when she brought it back, outed it as a tug and then flung again. She quickly worked out the chain, and the whole thing was rewarding (tug for return, throw for the out) so it worked out all right for her.


I don't use frisbees, but when I did it with tennis balls I waited for Hazel to drop the first before I threw the second, otherwise she would keep running with the first in her mouth and drop it out by the second (too much retrieving work for me!). I used the squeaky kong ones and just kept playing with the second one myself until she dropped the first, then I marked it with a "yes" and immediately threw the second one. I can see how the shape of the frisbee would make it an issue if you aren't waiting for a full drop of the first toy.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I don't use frisbees, but when I did it with tennis balls I waited for Hazel to drop the first before I threw the second, otherwise she would keep running with the first in her mouth and drop it out by the second (too much retrieving work for me!). I used the squeaky kong ones and just kept playing with the second one myself until she dropped the first, then I marked it with a "yes" and immediately threw the second one. I can see how the shape of the frisbee would make it an issue if you aren't waiting for a full drop of the first toy.


Molly never had issues with balls. She likes them, a lot, but that disc is just the holy grail of everything good. So she was never going to get bored and let it go on her own - ever. And she is faster at regrabbing than I am at grabbing (or stepping). So, it looked basically like:

Throw Disc 1. 
Dog comes back.
Ask for an out. 
Dog drops Disc 1
Throw Disc 2
Dog grabs Disc 1 from the ground (possible headbutting if I'm bending down to get it at the time) and flies off after Disc 2.
Dog now has both discs in her mouth and is 20 feet away. 

I probably could have made it work, but it was just frustrating the snot out of me (...or she was) so I switched it up. Looking at it, stepping on the first before throwing the second might have worked, but it was still going to feel like playing whackamole. 

At this stage I just stand there and look at her until she spits it out on my foot and backs up a step and/or circles around behind me, but the middle bit was her bringing it to me, a short tug session, an out, marker, and then an IMMEDIATE throw so it wasn't hanging around to be snatched.


----------



## elrohwen

Ok guys, I need some fun tricks to work on with the puppy. Mostly I want to work on shaping more stuff, because she is getting so into offering focus that she just sits and stares at me. lol Ideas? 

I think I'm going to start on 2o2o/rear foot targeting. She has front feet down now and is doing pivots and stuff. I'll have to figure out what I'm going to use to teach it. I kind of want to do a board held at an angle to mimic agility equipment, and it will help differentiate from the other things she has done front foot stuff with.

Other ideas for things that are super cute and not that hard to shape? She can do shake, but I'm thinking "wave" might be cuter.

Oh, and I totally need to work on picking up and holding a dumbbell. I started that way too late with Watson. So that's something else easy, but more useful and less cute.


----------



## ireth0

Targeting with her nose!

If she already knows it you can work on it in different locations, so she has to go high/low/jump a bit/from farther away/etc. Great for motivating and useful for recall as well.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Targeting with her nose!
> 
> If she already knows it you can work on it in different locations, so she has to go high/low/jump a bit/from farther away/etc. Great for motivating and useful for recall as well.


Got that already  That was one of the first things we worked on.

She has a lot of "tricks" that are kind of fundamentals for obedience and agility (nose touches, going to a mat, front foot target, spins, etc). She just doesn't have any cute but useless tricks.


----------



## ireth0

Luna also really enjoys pawing something which we cue as 'touch'. I do it primarily with my keys, so now when I get my keys out and put them on the floor you can tell she's all "oh! I know this game! Lemmie at em!" and she -touches- them so deliberately. It's pretty cute, lol.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Luna also really enjoys pawing something which we cue as 'touch'. I do it primarily with my keys, so now when I get my keys out and put them on the floor you can tell she's all "oh! I know this game! Lemmie at em!" and she -touches- them so deliberately. It's pretty cute, lol.


Hazel is a menace with her paws. I easily taught Watson to give a high five and to target either of my feet with his paws, and it's a fun game to play. Sometimes he'll just put his paw on my foot when he wants me to train with him. So I taught Hazel, and now I have a puppy who rakes her claws down my shins whenever I'm not paying attention to her in obedience class. Paw on foot, dog! 

I think I need to teach her to wave so at least she keeps her little talons away from my skin. lol


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Luna also really enjoys pawing something which we cue as 'touch'. I do it primarily with my keys, so now when I get my keys out and put them on the floor you can tell she's all "oh! I know this game! Lemmie at em!" and she -touches- them so deliberately. It's pretty cute, lol.


Hazel is a menace with her paws. I easily taught Watson to give a high five and to target either of my feet with his paws, and it's a fun game to play. Sometimes he'll just put his paw on my foot when he wants me to train with him. So I taught Hazel, and now I have a puppy who rakes her claws down my shins whenever I'm not paying attention to her in obedience class. Paw on foot, dog! 

I think I need to teach her to wave so at least she keeps her little talons away from my skin. lol


----------



## CrimsonAccent

Roll over?

Haven't fully accomplished it with Cupcake, but in the midst of splitting it into parts we got a nice "settle" (lay on your side) which could also be the beginning of a play dead. We just haven't gotten the idea of actually rolling around haha.

Edit: Not sure if it meets the easy to shape requirement though.


----------



## elrohwen

CrimsonAccent said:


> Roll over?
> 
> Haven't fully accomplished it with Cupcake, but in the midst of splitting it into parts we got a nice "settle" (lay on your side) which could also be the beginning of a play dead. We just haven't gotten the idea of actually rolling around haha.
> 
> Edit: Not sure if it meets the easy to shape requirement though.


Yeah, I kind of started that and then gave up after one session. Haha. It's definitely something I want to do with her, but like you said it's more luring than shaping (or at least I'm not a good enough shaper to shape it). I tend to work on either that or "sit pretty" during down time in obedience classes because it's quiet and easy to lure.


----------



## CptJack

Wave. Spin. Twirl (opposite directions). Leg weaves. Cop-Cop and/or just walking between your legs (backing up like this is awesome rear end awareness, too). Play dead (easier than roll over). Bow. Take it/get it. Identifying your husband and or Watson by name. "Spread em" (front paws on a thing, and then 'frisk the dog). 

I also taught patty-cake (paw, other paw, both paws above your head) onto mine, but frankly with a pawy dog I wouldn't so much. Which is to say Thud doesn't know it and I regret teaching him shake.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Wave. Spin. Twirl (opposite directions). Leg weaves. Cop-Cop and/or just walking between your legs (backing up like this is awesome rear end awareness, too). Play dead (easier than roll over). Bow. Take it/get it. Identifying your husband and or Watson by name. "Spread em" (front paws on a thing, and then 'frisk the dog).
> 
> I also taught patty-cake (paw, other paw, both paws above your head) onto mine, but frankly with a pawy dog I wouldn't so much. Which is to say Thud doesn't know it and I regret teaching him shake.


I want to do wave I think. Leg weaves is good! Don't know why I didn't think of that. And I can shape that as well as lure. I don't want to do "bow" yet because her down isn't solid and I think that might be confusing (especially since I've done almost all "down" training from the stand, so it's the same luring behavior). 

Watson can totally do the patty-cake thing. She gets a little flaily with the paws. lol We're still working on left vs right paw depending on which hand I put out, since she tends to want to do the one she learned first. But she's getting there.

Spin/twirl she has though not without a lot of body language from me, but we're getting there. 

Definitely need to train a take it/hold for obedience. Watson still can't do it but I think it will be easier with her.


----------



## elrohwen

I also think I want to train a "hug". I see people with dogs hugging toys and objects on the interwebz and it's so cute. I've never attempted it with Watson, and it would be a fun shaping challenge. I think I saw Silvia Trkman start with a pvc pipe held upright.


----------



## CptJack

Wave his cute. I've been working with it with Molly on and off for a bit. The challenge for me is that I want to ultimately get it on verbal cue only and/or from a distance and for whatever reason I got kind of bored once I'd built it up to about 6-12" away so it's slightly less adorable than it would be if the dog were waving at someone from decent distance. It just looks like a weird mirror right now. 

...shaping would probably fix that problem.

I might add hug or steal some other ideas people are throwing out. I need to train more tricks than I have been lately. I like it, the dogs like it (well the dogs I do it with). I just hyper focus on agility or foundations or whatever and forget it. Not much of a difference to the dog, but it's a huge brain change for me and that tends to keep it more fun for the dog.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I might add hug or steal some other ideas people are throwing out. I need to train more tricks than I have been lately. I like it, the dogs like it (well the dogs I do it with). I just hyper focus on agility or foundations or whatever and forget it. Not much of a difference to the dog, but it's a huge brain change for me and that tends to keep it more fun for the dog.


Right! Same here. A lot of pet people would probably say that I have trained a lot of tricks, since I have nose touches and paw touches and perching and stuff, but to me that's all performance foundations stuff. Still fun, but not a cute trick I can show off or take adorable pictures of.

I also really love having a handful of super fun tricks that Watson loves, because I can use them to get his energy up or as a secondary reinforcer. I realized I don't have anything like that for Hazel right now other than spin/twirl.


----------



## Zip

One of my favorite shaping tricks for puppies is 'get in the box'. It is easy to teach so great as an introduction to shaping, and a puppy is learning to think and use his/her legs at the same time. You can then make it harder by making the box smaller and smaller or you can upgrade and teach them to go into a suitcase and hide inside. It is a very cute trick, and there are many, many variations of it. Any 'box' trick is great for shaping puppies or dogs new to clicker training. 

I also like 'drumming' trick, but it's probably a bit more advanced.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Right! Same here. A lot of pet people would probably say that I have trained a lot of tricks, since I have nose touches and paw touches and perching and stuff, but to me that's all performance foundations stuff. Still fun, but not a cute trick I can show off or take adorable pictures of.
> 
> I also really love having a handful of super fun tricks that Watson loves, because I can use them to get his energy up or as a secondary reinforcer. I realized I don't have anything like that for Hazel right now other than spin/twirl.


YES. I like the cute pictures and I like playing with my dog/having it really be a game for both of us. Plus, admittedly, I still want to put together a freestyle routine someday. Just a short one, and not for anything real but just something cute and fun for a couple of minutes. I'd also kind of like to come up with some double dog tricks, beyond the continued work of making Kylie stand on Thud for Canyx.

...Leap Frog could be fun. Hrm.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

elrohwen said:


> Why didn't the two frisbee game work? Was she not willing to give up the one she had for another one? Watson is like that - the one he has is more valuable than the one I have.


It was just really, really difficult to maneuver. Partially because of what CptJack said (she's quick!) and partially because she valued one over the other. It's not that she wouldn't give it up for the other if I threw it.. it's that she didn't ever bring the other back because it was either the high value one (take a wide around me so I had to go to her which defeated the purpose) or not as important as the next one I'm going to throw (so she'd drop it way too early in anticipation never to look back). Also, I lost my other frisbee in a giant bush thing in a neighbors yard.. soo never to be seen again!


----------



## Laurelin

Hank's ball drive is up a lot lately. The multiple balls thing isn't working so well. It worked with Mia. But with Hank what is happening is he will either try to keep all tennis balls in his mouth (he had three yesterday!) or he will run after the second then drop the first when he reaches the second. I can't ever get him to drop when he's supposed to.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Hank's ball drive is up a lot lately. The multiple balls thing isn't working so well. It worked with Mia. But with Hank what is happening is he will either try to keep all tennis balls in his mouth (he had three yesterday!) or he will run after the second then drop the first when he reaches the second. I can't ever get him to drop when he's supposed to.


Luckily Hazel is too small to fit multiples of anything in her mouth so far. lol I didn't throw the second until she dropped the first ball. The first couple times I just stood there squeaking the stupid thing while she ran circles around me with the first ball, but she figured it out and now she drops right away. If I throw the second before she's dropped the first she carries the first ball all the way out to the second and then switches, so I have to go out and retrieve one of them.


----------



## CptJack

This is probably really overly simple, but can you try using regular sized tennis balls so he can't get multiples in his mouth (I'm assuming you're using the mini kong ones but he might just be really talented)? It may also give you enough space to treat it like a tug and hold on and make the toy go 'dead', though frankly I hate that because I have been chomped way too many times by a dog 'chewing' the ball.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> This is probably really overly simple, but can you try using regular sized tennis balls so he can't get multiples in his mouth (I'm assuming you're using the mini kong ones but he might just be really talented)? It may also give you enough space to treat it like a tug and hold on and make the toy go 'dead', though frankly I hate that because I have been chomped way too many times by a dog 'chewing' the ball.


I kind of assumed she was using normal sized ones and Hank has mad skills, but that's a good point. I use the full sized ones with Hazel and there's no way she could pick up two at once.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I kind of assumed she was using normal sized ones and Hank has mad skills, but that's a good point. I use the full sized ones with Hazel and there's no way she could pick up two at once.


Hank has mad skills AND an alligator jaw  

Molly can't manage two full sized balls, but she definitely tries to collect/hoard all of Kylie's little ones. To the degree that I mostly don't let Kylie have them unless she's out alone because Molly loves them and she's way too big for them and I'm afraid she'll choke. She's also about twice Hank's size, though.


----------



## elrohwen

I started working on some tricks with Hazel yesterday! I set up a little slanted board for 2o2o, and we started "hug". I really have no idea what I'm doing with hug, so I got a PVC jump pole and shaped putting her paw over it while I held it roughly up and down. I tried to watch a YouTube video about it but my phone died 15sec in and I gave up. So we'll see. I tried to start leg weaves but she got super flaily and was just running circles around me so I gave up on that for now. Haha.

I do need help on her sit-stay. She knows she is supposed to stay in a sit, and will hold it for a while, but she keeps scooting around on her butt. Any time I move she starts moving her front feet, pushing herself backwards, spinning, etc. Not a ton, but not something I want to encourage. My only idea is to work with a platform/target for a little while and see if that helps, but I'd probably have to make something the right size. It would be faster to find a way to fix it without a platform.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Hank has mad skills AND an alligator jaw
> 
> Molly can't manage two full sized balls, but she definitely tries to collect/hoard all of Kylie's little ones. To the degree that I mostly don't let Kylie have them unless she's out alone because Molly loves them and she's way too big for them and I'm afraid she'll choke. She's also about twice Hank's size, though.


I don't remember exactly how big Hank is, but he's probably not that bigger than Hazel at this point (she's 20lbs or so). Even with bigger stronger jaws a full sized tennis ball is big for a 20-30lb dog.


----------



## Laurelin

CptJack said:


> This is probably really overly simple, but can you try using regular sized tennis balls so he can't get multiples in his mouth (I'm assuming you're using the mini kong ones but he might just be really talented)? It may also give you enough space to treat it like a tug and hold on and make the toy go 'dead', though frankly I hate that because I have been chomped way too many times by a dog 'chewing' the ball.


Haha no I've used both. I'm trying to convince him the big tennis balls are just as fun as the x small. I'm pretty sure he only prefers the x smalls because Mia gets mad that he's playing with HER stuff.

With the bigger tennis balls (still kong squeakers but the regular tennis ball size) he can get two at a time or he does the drop it to grab the new one thing. But he will still carry the first ball out with him. It's not I throw, he gets the ball. Comes back to me and drops the ball. Goes and gets the second ball. Instead. I throw the ball. He gets the ball. Comes back to me. Takes the first ball to get the second ball. Drops the first ball and brings me the second. 

Now if I toss them close to me he jumps and tries to catch ball #2 while still holding ball #1. Doesn't quite work...


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I do need help on her sit-stay. She knows she is supposed to stay in a sit, and will hold it for a while, but she keeps scooting around on her butt. Any time I move she starts moving her front feet, pushing herself backwards, spinning, etc. Not a ton, but not something I want to encourage. My only idea is to work with a platform/target for a little while and see if that helps, but I'd probably have to make something the right size. It would be faster to find a way to fix it without a platform.


Sort of depends on her temperament. Molly does this with EVERYTHING. I have to no-reward maker her and reset it every time with crazy clear criteria and reward nothing outside that criteria. She, however, is pretty hard when it comes to pressure and correction (and soft in general life) so if Hazel is going to get frustrated or melt at that, especially being a baby, I'd probably just either shorten up the duration by a ton (or just not move away) or go platform and fade it.


----------



## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> I don't remember exactly how big Hank is, but he's probably not that bigger than Hazel at this point (she's 20lbs or so). Even with bigger stronger jaws a full sized tennis ball is big for a 20-30lb dog.


Last measurement is 15.75" and 23 lbs.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Last measurement is 15.75" and 23 lbs.


He clearly just has mad skills. lol


----------



## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Haha no I've used both. I'm trying to convince him the big tennis balls are just as fun as the x small. I'm pretty sure he only prefers the x smalls because Mia gets mad that he's playing with HER stuff.
> 
> With the bigger tennis balls (still kong squeakers but the regular tennis ball size) he can get two at a time or he does the drop it to grab the new one thing. But he will still carry the first ball out with him. It's not I throw, he gets the ball. Comes back to me and drops the ball. Goes and gets the second ball. Instead. I throw the ball. He gets the ball. Comes back to me. Takes the first ball to get the second ball. Drops the first ball and brings me the second.
> 
> Now if I toss them close to me he jumps and tries to catch ball #2 while still holding ball #1. Doesn't quite work...


Don't teach Molly how to do that, Hank. We're happy with her inability to manage. 

Try not throwing the second one until he's dropped the first one and if he won't drop the first one just play with the second one yourself. If he drops it away from you (before you've thrown ball two) go get it. If he rushes to intercept you shrug and let him have it and go back to playing with the one you've got and rinse and repeat until you have both. Once you have both, throw, but ONLY once you have both. 

That's theoretical and what works with my dog. What works with my dog is not necessarily what's going to work for Hank 

I don't know, the only other thing I can really say is proof 'out' from tug super duper well and then if he won't out it just stop playing. Also I can't grab the ball with Molly and get nearly as good results as I can as just putting my cupped hand under her mouth. Otherwise she wants to hang onto it.


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## Laurelin

He has a big face for his size. Lol sounds weird but I mean to say his head seems a lot broader and a bigger muzzle/teeth than my similarly sized shelties. 

Also kong squeakers are really squishy compared to actual tennis balls.


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## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> He has a big face for his size. Lol sounds weird but I mean to say his head seems a lot broader and a bigger muzzle/teeth than my similarly sized shelties.
> 
> Also kong squeakers are really squishy compared to actual tennis balls.


He's Jack sized! More or less exactly, even, though obviously built different. 

Squish factor in the squeaker is a good point. I only own the little kong squeakers and ONE regular sized one that I keep reserved for agility or hard stuff. They do have a ton of give.


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## Laurelin

Hank's not a huge fan of our regular chuckit tennis balls. He's getting to where he likes the regular sized ones. I am a bit worried he might choke on the minis.

He's a good size. Part of me really loves BCs, Belgians, ACDs and similarly sized dogs. But another part of me doesn't want anything bigger than Hank. He's perfect sized. Portable and small enough to really exercise indoors if need be (right now it's over 100 degrees heat index for a few weeks). But he's sturdy and very athletic. It's perfect.

Yeah we need some drop it work. Drop it is not his strong point even though we've worked it a TON. He will drop it for a treat but I'd like to keep treats out of ball playing.


----------



## Canyx

Whoohoo!!! Way off topic into my own realm of training goals... But we got it!!


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Try not throwing the second one until he's dropped the first one and if he won't drop the first one just play with the second one yourself. If he drops it away from you (before you've thrown ball two) go get it. If he rushes to intercept you shrug and let him have it and go back to playing with the one you've got and rinse and repeat until you have both. Once you have both, throw, but ONLY once you have both.
> 
> That's theoretical and what works with my dog. What works with my dog is not necessarily what's going to work for Hank


Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say. I just squeak the one in my hand like it's the best thing in the world until she drops the first one. If she goes back for the one she dropped I just stand up and keep playing with the one I have.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Sort of depends on her temperament. Molly does this with EVERYTHING. I have to no-reward maker her and reset it every time with crazy clear criteria and reward nothing outside that criteria. She, however, is pretty hard when it comes to pressure and correction (and soft in general life) so if Hazel is going to get frustrated or melt at that, especially being a baby, I'd probably just either shorten up the duration by a ton (or just not move away) or go platform and fade it.


I think I just need to go slower with her. Instead of a step to the right, just lean to the right. She does seem to understand a NRM type correction, but since she's still a baby I'd rather not use it if I don't have to. I would do that for Watson at this point if he moved his feet on a stand-stay, but I'm comfortable that he understands criteria better. Hazel doesn't really have any idea what we're doing and is just playing along.

I thought about this again and I think she's trying to pivot to stay in front position. We've worked on pivoting a fair bit on a bowl, with her staying in front, so I bet she is attempting to do the same thing but with her butt on the floor. lol She tends to think things through very clearly, rather than just impulsively flailing around, so I think she's just not clear on what I want but when she is she'll be golden. I think a platform would help with that, but I think I can get the same results by slowing down and only raising criteria very gradually.


----------



## pawsaddict

Canyx said:


> Whoohoo!!! Way off topic into my own realm of training goals... But we got it!!


Nice work! I think I would fall right over if Nova jumped into my arms. Muscles...what are those? Lol.


----------



## elrohwen

pawsaddict said:


> Nice work! I think I would fall right over if Nova jumped into my arms. Muscles...what are those? Lol.


Uh, yeah. Watson is less than 50lbs and I'm pretty sure I would fall over if he jumped into my arms.

Very nice job, Canyx and Soro!


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## CptJack

Also seconding the nice work and the being impressed thing. 

I also have a coordination issue. I had to reteach Kylie and it took some convincing because I, um, missed her once. She's still pretty skeptical of me.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Also seconding the nice work and the being impressed thing.
> 
> I also have a coordination issue. I had to reteach Kylie and it took some convincing because I, um, missed her once. She's still pretty skeptical of me.


Watson already doesn't trust me to pick him up and carry him because he knows I'm uncoordinated and can barely lift him. He'll let me do it but I can tell he's extremely uncomfortable. He's totally comfortable with my husband carrying him around, because my husband has muscles and doesn't seem like he's going to drop him. Pretty sure he would never trust me to catch him.


----------



## Laurelin

Ok so doing a flyball run away from him with a dragging tug is sorta working. But I'm not sure he's getting the 'drop it'. He EVENTUALLY drops it but only after jumping and trying to grab the tug _while still holding onto the ball_....


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## CptJack

How good is his out from the tug?


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Ok so doing a flyball run away from him with a dragging tug is sorta working. But I'm not sure he's getting the 'drop it'. He EVENTUALLY drops it but only after jumping and trying to grab the tug _while still holding onto the ball_....


I think that's fine. I would just wait him out and mark when he does drop it and it will get faster and faster when he realizes more fun stuff starts as soon as he lets go.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I think that's fine. I would just wait him out and mark when he does drop it and it will get faster and faster when he realizes more fun stuff starts as soon as he lets go.


And also that.


----------



## Laurelin

Out from the tug is somewhat better but not stellar. 

Also random but he completely bit my pinky finger trying to grab the ball. So me being the papillon person I am said 'OW!' and then held out my finger to show him where he'd bit me and he then chomped down and got my whole hand in his mouth. Geez thanks.


----------



## elrohwen

I think you just need to wait him out more when you have the second awesome toy. Maybe you've tried that. But I know that I ruined Watson's out by being to controlling about it and wanting it now. I'm trying to be more patient with Hazel and just waiting her out and it's going better.


----------



## CrimsonAccent

Might not be the right thread, but close enough.

So we're moving out on the 14th (yay) but obviously that's a pretty big upheaval for the dogs. Any suggestions? Cupcake I'm not as worried about. She's more go with the flow and loves going to new places, so I think it'll just be the Next Grand Adventure to her.

Donut...is gonna flip. I don't know if he's just more of a homebody than we thought, or just anxious or undersocialized or going through a weird fear period. He will eventually warm up to things (he used to do NOTHING at the dog park but whine and follow us around, and now he engages with other dogs and actually leaves our line of sight) but any tips to help the transition? 

We have about a week, so I'm not expecting big things, but any good games or just too short a time frame?

On a related note: 

I put him in his harness for a walk a week ago. He started to whine as we left the house. I wanted to experiment by powering through. We turn the corner and he starts freaking. Like jumping, whining, flinging himself around in an attempt to run home. He threw himself at me a couple of times as well. I power through (feeling terrible) and we achieve forward motion.

About halfway through, he is finally "ok" and we start jogging/running. I don't know if he was just resigned? Finally chilled out/processed the situation? Or could tell we were finally heading in the direction of home.

Doesn't seem as bad when it's me, FI and Cupcake all on a group walk. And still whiny if it's me, him and Cupcake, but less so. (I think Cupcake may boost his confidence/force him to keep going lol).


----------



## Eenypup

It's amazing how big of a difference a few quiet days of inactivity makes when you've gotten your dog used to being active! Bennie's not young or particularly high energy, but this summer we've been out and about SO much that these past two days of hanging around and having short walks just wasn't cutting it for her. She followed me around licking my leg and trying to get me to pay attention to her and take her outside, lol.

Finally went for a nice walk today (or tried to) and she was pulling all over the place! Went to petco and she was friendly but RUDE, of course. Took her to an off leash fenced area and she tried to blow my recall MULTIPLE times. She never does that! Just goes to show that dogs really get used to the activity no matter what their age. Ugh, so annoying!


----------



## Canyx

Thanks all! And funny thing is Soro does not like to be picked up. He is like Watson with the 'I don't like this but I'll let you do it' thing. I haven't had another person pick him up in years but last time that happened he growled and flipped out of their arms. Even funnier is if I have someone try to piggyback him, he will enthusiastically jump onto their back but be growling the whole time afterward. Like 'Whee!!! Fun trick! ........ WAIT. WHO ARE YOU I HATE IT UP HERE LET ME DOWN.'


----------



## DogTheGreat

Canyx said:


> Whoohoo!!! Way off topic into my own realm of training goals... But we got it!!


Wtg! This is something I'd like to add to the list of teaching my dog, but honestly I'd be afraid she'd attempt it in day-to-day life without me giving the command/cue. Getting more beat up by my dog than I already do is probably not something I'd want haha.


----------



## elrohwen

Ugh, not sure what to do about Hazel's class schedule. She's signed up for "better than basic" obedience starting mid-September for 5 weeks. I've already paid, plus I think we need this class just to continue working on basic stuff like stays. Class is Monday at 7.

There is also a puppy foundations class starting up late August that is Mondays at 9 and the place is an hour away (which means we wouldn't get home until 11).

Signing a 5 month old puppy up for two one hour classes in the same night, with a long drive in between is a terrible idea, right?


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Ugh, not sure what to do about Hazel's class schedule. She's signed up for "better than basic" obedience starting mid-September for 5 weeks. I've already paid, plus I think we need this class just to continue working on basic stuff like stays. Class is Monday at 7.
> 
> There is also a puppy foundations class starting up late August that is Mondays at 9 and the place is an hour away (which means we wouldn't get home until 11).
> 
> Signing a 5 month old puppy up for two one hour classes in the same night, with a long drive in between is a terrible idea, right?


I'd go with yea, I wouldn't sign her up for both. I'd expect she'd be pretty burnt out by the 2nd class and you wouldn't get great performance from her.


----------



## Alla

Yeahhhh, she's special and amazing and all, but two classes in one night is probably a bit much even for an older dog with a ton of focus and attention span. 

You don't want to risk killing the fun of it for her, I don't think.


----------



## elrohwen

Blah. I don't really want to take the puppy foundations class anyway, honestly, since it's at 9pm and it's an hour away. I'm usually getting ready for bed around 9. I wish they would move some of the class times around, because it was at the same time last term and will probably be the same time next term. We could just join beginners - a lot of it was foundations stuff anyway, but then there would be nowhere to go because advanced beginners includes jumps and contact obstacles and she's too little. 

We did do a private agility lesson yesterday which was really nice. She showed me a lot of foundation stuff to work on and it's all stuff I can do at home (or was already working on). I just like the idea of a class because it gets her into new environment with different dogs, and would hopefully get her working off leash quickly.

If Watson's lameness clears up I might just continue doing privates every week or every other week, and split the time between both of them, until she's big enough to do a real class with some jumps and thing.

ETA: I don't really want to put her in beginner class either, since the only options are 5pm (too early, and it's a day we have other classes) and 8pm with the same woman I saw for Watson (while I liked her, I already know what she'll have us do, and I would like to try another trainer at the club)


----------



## CrimsonAccent

I don't personally know any dogs that could handle that amount of work in one night (but if they exist I'm sure someone on DF has them!). 

Not that I'm the paragon of training, but when we were taking classes more regularly, we signed up for a one off tricks class (offered multiple times) and thought about doing two back to back. Glad we didn't. Cupcake was clearly just done with all of it by the last 5 minutes of class. But maybe you can build mental endurance? (General question).


----------



## elrohwen

CrimsonAccent said:


> I don't personally know any dogs that could handle that amount of work in one night (but if they exist I'm sure someone on DF has them!).
> 
> Not that I'm the paragon of training, but when we were taking classes more regularly, we signed up for a one off tricks class (offered multiple times) and thought about doing two back to back. Glad we didn't. Cupcake was clearly just done with all of it by the last 5 minutes of class. But maybe you can build mental endurance? (General question).


You can certainly build mental endurance. Lots of dogs need to build it if they are going to be successful in sports. 

I would consider doing a regular class plus a handling class in one night, especially if the handling class was second, but they are totally different activities and handling is pretty mindless for the dogs. But two regular classes in one night is way too much.


----------



## Laurelin

I have done 2 hours of classes with older dogs but I wouldn't with a 5 month old puppy. Hank can work for a long, long time. He'll handle a 1 hour private without breaks just fine (Mia and Summer couldn't finish a 1 hour private with me alternating). Hank has done barn hunt, agility, and coursing all in the same day just fine. But he is pretty high energy and high drive and also well balanced so that he settles really nice and doesn't get too crazy. He would easily do 2-3 agility classes a day if I'd let him. However, I don't think he's the norm and he's certainly not a puppy.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I have done 2 hours of classes with older dogs but I wouldn't with a 5 month old puppy. Hank can work for a long, long time. He'll handle a 1 hour private without breaks just fine (Mia and Summer couldn't finish a 1 hour private with me alternating). Hank has done barn hunt, agility, and coursing all in the same day just fine. But he is pretty high energy and high drive and also well balanced so that he settles really nice and doesn't get too crazy. He would easily do 2-3 agility classes a day if I'd let him. However, I don't think he's the norm and he's certainly not a puppy.


Yeah, I'm not sure how well I could handle two classes either. I will be doing handling class at 6 with Hazel and obedience at 8 with Watson starting in September and I'm going to be fried. I'm not sure if I'm glad that there's a break (I can run home and switch out dogs) or if I wish they were back to back.

Hazel handled a one hour private remarkably well yesterday. We took lots of long breaks, and the instructor started out by saying that we would cut it short, but Hazel just kept going and going. We were both pretty impressed. She already has more stamina than Watson. lol I think it will work very well to split it between them in the future.


----------



## elrohwen

I'm a sucker for signing up for classes. We don't have any classes scheduled until mid-late September, but there are two mini-courses (two sessions each, a Wed and a Mon) on offer in August. One is on training the retrieve and the other is heeling footwork. Both are things I feel like I have an ok grasp of, but not great (especially the retrieve, since I never get anywhere with it). 

Looks like we are signing up, because I have impulse control issues when it comes to training classes.

They are back to back, 6pm and 7pm, but I'm pretty sure Watson will be just fine with that. He's done all day seminars without a problem. Most of it will involve him lying around anyway.


----------



## Alla

elrohwen said:


> I'm a sucker for signing up for classes. We don't have any classes scheduled until mid-late September, but there are two mini-courses (two sessions each, a Wed and a Mon) on offer in August. One is on training the retrieve and the other is heeling footwork. Both are things I feel like I have an ok grasp of, but not great (especially the retrieve, since I never get anywhere with it).
> 
> Looks like we are signing up, because I have impulse control issues when it comes to training classes.
> 
> They are back to back, 6pm and 7pm, but I'm pretty sure Watson will be just fine with that. He's done all day seminars without a problem. Most of it will involve him lying around anyway.


Oh gosh, join the club lol. The amount of money that gets spent on classes is also kind of incredible. And I thought pizzles were expensive...


----------



## elrohwen

Alla said:


> Oh gosh, join the club lol. The amount of money that gets spent on classes is also kind of incredible. And I thought pizzles were expensive...


Next "term" I'm up to 3 group classes between the two dogs, private agility lessons when we end up fitting them in, plus FDSA classes (we will probably do 2 at Bronze in October). My class spending budget is kind of out of control. Haha


----------



## Alla

elrohwen said:


> Next "term" I'm up to 3 group classes between the two dogs, private agility lessons when we end up fitting them in, plus FDSA classes (we will probably do 2 at Bronze in October). My class spending budget is kind of out of control. Haha


Yeah, wow, how do -you- have the stamina for that? Plus puppyhood? Unreal. 

I'm only doing 3 RL classes and 1 Bronze FSDA. Probably going to keep the same schedule for next 'term' except for FSDA at Gold. 
Which Bronze sessions are you looking at for next term?


----------



## elrohwen

Alla said:


> Yeah, wow, how do -you- have the stamina for that? Plus puppyhood? Unreal.


Most of the classes aren't any work really. Watson is just coasting along in his obedience/rally classes and perfecting his skills, so I don't really have "homework". One class is a handling class for Hazel which is pretty low key. And the other is her basic obedience 2 class, which isn't that hard. Classes are what I do in the evenings 

As far as FDSA goes, I just fit that stuff in around it depending on how much I want to work on it. I'm working on engagement a fair bit, but there are other classes that I did for the lectures and I've just picked at the material here and there (like agility).



> I'm only doing 3 RL classes and 1 Bronze FSDA. Probably going to keep the same schedule for next 'term' except for FSDA at Gold.
> Which Bronze sessions are you looking at for next term?


Definitely the Play class. Very likely the Conformation class. I know the basics and we'll go to handling class, but Hazel is going to be much harder to show than Watson so I probably need to brush up and actually train my dog this time around, instead of going into the ring and winging it. 

Are you just doing Play? When I take a gold class I pretty much only do the Gold class. Otherwise it's too much. I don't know how people do 2 or more Gold classes without completely burning out.

I'm depositing Watson's stud fee check today, so classes are on him! Haha


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Sooo.. Kairi has a fantastic down/stay now. When I go to decide how I'm going to maneuver the next sequence or course in agility, I've been putting her in the down/stay and seeing what she will do. She stayed for at least 5 minutes! I am so impressed with how far we have come. I'm going to say some it has to be maturity... but I'll take it!

I think we are finally ready to take the CGC class and then the test. Unfortunately it is the same night as agility.. 3 hours earlier. I don't know if she will be able to handle that.. or if I will! Sigh.


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## kadylady

First time working on this last night....put the ball in the box. "Do I get extra cookies if I put myself in the box with the ball?!" She loved this game!


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## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Sooo.. Kairi has a fantastic down/stay now. When I go to decide how I'm going to maneuver the next sequence or course in agility, I've been putting her in the down/stay and seeing what she will do. She stayed for at least 5 minutes! I am so impressed with how far we have come. I'm going to say some it has to be maturity... but I'll take it!
> 
> I think we are finally ready to take the CGC class and then the test. Unfortunately it is the same night as agility.. 3 hours earlier. I don't know if she will be able to handle that.. or if I will! Sigh.


Nice! Watsom still struggles with stays, though I honestly don't practice them that much either. He just lacks impulse control in general. Haha. Good luck on the CGC!



kadylady said:


> First time working on this last night....put the ball in the box. "Do I get extra cookies if I put myself in the box with the ball?!" She loved this game!


She's so cute!


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> She's so cute!


Thanks! I love watching her think through things. I really need to be a better dog mom and do more stuff like this with her. I've been a pretty lazy with training lately.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Thanks! I love watching her think through things. I really need to be a better dog mom and do more stuff like this with her. I've been a pretty lazy with training lately.


Yeah, I feel the same way. It's harder to find training time with two of them because somebody is always very upset about being left out, so then I end up doing less little shaping sessions and things.


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## Alla

> Definitely the Play class. Very likely the Conformation class. I know the basics and we'll go to handling class, but Hazel is going to be much harder to show than Watson so I probably need to brush up and actually train my dog this time around, instead of going into the ring and winging it.
> 
> Are you just doing Play? When I take a gold class I pretty much only do the Gold class. Otherwise it's too much. I don't know how people do 2 or more Gold classes without completely burning out.


Now I'm curious why Hazel is going to be harder to show than Watson. Isn't he your go-crazy-in-different-environments dog?

Yeah even at Bronze I wouldn't do more than one class. I'm finding between all the other stuff I have a hard time doing all the work for Engagement at all. Taking Play at Gold will at least motivate me to actually do the work on a more consistent basis. 

For now, every time I try to play using all the things I'm learning from watching and reading everyone, she either just wants to be pet, or freezes (like when I tried Jaime's bite-a-hindleg move... she froze and stood still for a good minute, she was so confused), or goes off to play with the cat/stare at rats/etc. So I end up feeling like a complete failure without having any idea of what to fix, so imma leave playing until the actual class.

I have no idea how people do more than one class in general lol, especially if there are additional classes IRL. Maybe I'm just horrible with self-motivation.


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## elrohwen

Alla said:


> Now I'm curious why Hazel is going to be harder to show than Watson. Isn't he your go-crazy-in-different-environments dog?


Personality-wise she will be fine. I won't have to walk her for an hour before she goes in the ring like Watson, and she won't be timid or anything with the judge. She's just not as typey of a dog as he is, and females are generally more competitive anyway. She has more faults that will be harder to overcome and minimize in the ring, and there are going to be other dogs out there who are clearly nicer than her.



> I have no idea how people do more than one class in general lol, especially if there are additional classes IRL. Maybe I'm just horrible with self-motivation.


I find that real life classes are less about self-motivation and more about someone else motivating me, which is why I like them. I'm not all that self-motivated either, but going to a real class gets me in gear a bit.


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## TSTrainer

I'm definitely in need of support, but not because of the dog. My roommate is being weirdly uncooperative with his training. I am redoing potty training pretty much and I posted a thread about that, and I figured out my method but already ran into a speed bump. He HATES the harness my roommate insists on using. He full-on emptied his bladder at the sight of it, which of course I cleaned up. I got him a collar, much better, but even TAKING OFF the harness caused him to completely empty. Good thing I saw that coming and did it outside. I am keeping the collar a secret until she understands its totally detrimental to force him to wear the harness.


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## elrohwen

TSTrainer said:


> I'm definitely in need of support, but not because of the dog. My roommate is being weirdly uncooperative with his training. I am redoing potty training pretty much and I posted a thread about that, and I figured out my method but already ran into a speed bump. He HATES the harness my roommate insists on using. He full-on emptied his bladder at the sight of it, which of course I cleaned up. I got him a collar, much better, but even TAKING OFF the harness caused him to completely empty. Good thing I saw that coming and did it outside. I am keeping the collar a secret until she understands its totally detrimental to force him to wear the harness.


I would just cut the roommate out of potty training and do it yourself if that's an option. Or just tell him that it's your dog and you want him to use a collar. If it's your dog you get to make the decisions.


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## TSTrainer

He's her dog... but he's out of control. She never has to clean up the poop on the floor because he does it after she leaves work and I either leave after her or come back before her so I'm always the one cleaning it up. So it's more of a "if I'm cleaning it up I'm making the decisions" kinda deal.


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## elrohwen

TSTrainer said:


> He's her dog... but he's out of control. She never has to clean up the poop on the floor because he does it after she leaves work and I either leave after her or come back before her so I'm always the one cleaning it up. So it's more of a "if I'm cleaning it up I'm making the decisions" kinda deal.


If it's her dog then it's her responsibility, not yours. If he's pooping in the house after she leaves, then he should be crated when she leaves so that you don't have to deal with it.


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## TSTrainer

elrohwen said:


> If it's her dog then it's her responsibility, not yours. If he's pooping in the house after she leaves, then he should be crated when she leaves so that you don't have to deal with it.


I agree, but she is not proactive at all. I brought my own crate up from the basement and started training him, he's doing great! And I'm only doing this because I want my own dog, I don't care if she has to deal with a non-housebroken dog for the rest of his life but I don't want to bring a new puppy into a house that has out of control dogs. And I'm a brand new training "apprentice", so this is good practice for me.

eta: she was totally against the crate and is still apprehensive about it. No idea why. He's perfect in it.


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## elrohwen

TSTrainer said:


> I agree, but she is not proactive at all. I brought my own crate up from the basement and started training him, he's doing great! And I'm only doing this because I want my own dog, I don't care if she has to deal with a non-housebroken dog for the rest of his life but I don't want to bring a new puppy into a house that has out of control dogs. And I'm a brand new training "apprentice", so this is good practice for me.


I guess I don't really see this as a training issue. Either put him in a crate when she leaves (which you could do if she won't), or, if you're willing to help, just take him outside a couple times, depending on how long you're home. Today my husband left home at 7am and I didn't leave until 8am, so I let the puppy out twice after he left, then crated her when I left. Potty training is really about management more than training.


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## TSTrainer

elrohwen said:


> I guess I don't really see this as a training issue. Either put him in a crate when she leaves (which you could do if she won't), or, if you're willing to help, just take him outside a couple times, depending on how long you're home. Today my husband left home at 7am and I didn't leave until 8am, so I let the puppy out twice after he left, then crated her when I left. Potty training is really about management more than training.


It's definitely a management issue, as in she won't let me manage it lol. I know what I'm doing, and she is just being weird about her dog. She complains about his problems but when I go to fix them she suddenly doesn't want to do anything about it. If I'm gonna be a dog trainer professionally I need my own dog. I want to compete and get titles, her dogs aren't fit for that. So I am making this sacrifice I guess lol.


----------



## Alla

> Personality-wise she will be fine. I won't have to walk her for an hour before she goes in the ring like Watson, and she won't be timid or anything with the judge. She's just not as typey of a dog as he is, and females are generally more competitive anyway. She has more faults that will be harder to overcome and minimize in the ring, and there are going to be other dogs out there who are clearly nicer than her.
> 
> I find that real life classes are less about self-motivation and more about someone else motivating me, which is why I like them. I'm not all that self-motivated either, but going to a real class gets me in gear a bit.


Gotcha. I wish confo was at least partially judged on personality. It just seems a bit sad that Hazel would have a harder time being 'evaluated' than Watson, when she's such a great dog personality-wise. Watson is also a great dog, but harder to work with, from what I've gathered from your posts and videos. 

I totally agree. I need someone to pressure me to do something lol. I've been assigned homework to do tracking exercises every single day until my next lesson (and -boy- did Porsche take to tracking like a fish to water), so even if I'm too lazy to go somewhere I still have to lol. Trainer will know if I didn't do the work. :\ That's why I think Gold will be the perfect level for actually working on something. I also want to eventually take the precision heeling class at Gold. What level did you take it at with Watson?


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## ireth0

It's -kind of- on personality in that breeds that are supposed to be friendly to strangers get faulted if they shy away from the judge touching them and that kind of thing.


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## Alla

ireth0 said:


> It's -kind of- on personality in that breeds that are supposed to be friendly to strangers get faulted if they shy away from the judge touching them and that kind of thing.


Yeah, there is that. I mean, they have to be stable enough to maintain position, not be reactive to dogs/humans/etc, allow strangers to touch them, etc. But I mean, in a dog that is stable enough to do those basics (i.e. Porsche would fail the reactivity piece), confo wouldn't be able to judge the difference between Hazel & Watson on a personality level. 

I guess I'm just rambling, I'm sure they're both great dogs and Hazel hasn't hit her teenager phase yet, and it will be so interesting to see how that goes. 

I just looked at the class schedule for October and it looks like Precision Heeling is being offered at the same time as Play. Elrohwen (and anyone else who's taken PH), would that class be a good one to do at Bronze level? It seems very well structured and seems like it's very straight forward and broken down into tiny steps that would be easy to follow. On the other hand I dunno if a Gold and a Bronze together would be too much...


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## DogTheGreat

TSTrainer said:


> It's definitely a management issue, as in she won't let me manage it lol. I know what I'm doing, and she is just being weird about her dog. She complains about his problems but when I go to fix them she suddenly doesn't want to do anything about it. If I'm gonna be a dog trainer professionally I need my own dog. I want to compete and get titles, her dogs aren't fit for that. So I am making this sacrifice I guess lol.


Maybe she feels you are overstepping your boundaries? Honestly, I probably would if I was in the situation (even though I would be doing something more proactive about the problem myself). Tell her she needs to crate him when she's leaving for work and take him out on leash to give some massive praise and reward when he goes. A dog that is going in the house on a daily basis at a year has a fairly long way to go before they will be reliable. He shouldn't be unsupervised. Period. There is not going to be any quick way to fix it. It just takes consistency and structure.


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## elrohwen

Yes, personality and temperament are absolutely judged. I have seen a lot of dogs lose for being shy or looking miserable in the ring. For a breed that is known to be reserved with strangers that can be challenging, though I'm a fan of it because it helps to weed out the dogs who are just too shy to really function. There are the people who will work with a dog for 5 years until he's confident enough to go in the ring and I don't really see the point.

Watson's ring personality is actually fantastic. He shows very very well which is part of why he was easy to finish. A dog who is outgoing and confident in the ring is always easier to finish, and Watson is also very typey. Hazel has the personality but not the looks. He is harder to work with as far as performance sports, but dogs don't need to be biddable to show well in conformation. And a dog who is a bit on the crazy/hyper side actually shows very well if the handler can get them just under control. A dog who looks ready to run is going to be flashier than a dog who plods around and is totally bored with the whole thing. But yeah, conformation can't judge that she is handler focused and easy to work with, and he's easily distractable, but then it's not supposed to really measure that. Welshies aren't known for their biddability and handler focus anyway, they're not herding dogs, so I would say that's not even a fair test of correct temperament. The real test would be some kind of hunting instinct test (and there is a working dog distinction, in addition to hunt tests, though I don't have the motivation to train for it). This gets to the whole reason that border collie people tend to hate the show bred dogs, because while conformation shows can test for a basically stable temperament, it doesn't test for the things the make a breed special. That's what performance titles are for.

ETA: The one thing she really has going for her is movement. Watson has beautiful movement and Hazel has inherited it. Lots of judges will put up the best moving dog because flashy movement is eye catching and easy to spot. And there is a lot of truth to the fact that a good moving dog must be put together pretty well.

ETA2: For what it's worth, Watson is reasonably reactive and he does fine. The more dogs around the better he does actually. He will try to sniff and interact with dogs at shows, which I don't allow, and then he just deals with it and settles in. I think with so much going on he can't focus and lock in on one dog and get himself excited.


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## TSTrainer

DogTheGreat said:


> Maybe she feels you are overstepping your boundaries? Honestly, I probably would if I was in the situation (even though I would be doing something more proactive about the problem myself). Tell her she needs to crate him when she's leaving for work and take him out on leash to give some massive praise and reward when he goes. A dog that is going in the house on a daily basis at a year has a fairly long way to go before they will be reliable. He shouldn't be unsupervised. Period. There is not going to be any quick way to fix it. It just takes consistency and structure.


I don't necessarily think she feels that way, I would definitely understand if she did though. I think if she didn't want anything to change she wouldn't gripe about it so much. It's a new routine for everyone, and I am definitely on board for consistency and structure. It'll take a lot of work so I just need her cooperation. She's coming around, though. I do care about her, I don't want her to put up with it when I eventually move out. I think she's seeing it from a "he's a hopeless case" point of view rather than how I see it, which is we have a really smart dog here who needs to know what is expected. One day of crate training and he's an angel in the crate, and he even responds to the command. He has a lot of potential.


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## Alla

*sigh* anyone else get most of their want-to-train-right-now inspiration in the early/middle portion of the day while being stuck at work?


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## elrohwen

Alla said:


> *sigh* anyone else get most of their want-to-train-right-now inspiration in the early/middle portion of the day while being stuck at work?


I usually assume that's more about not wanting to be at work than it is about wanting to train. lol


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## Alla

elrohwen said:


> I usually assume that's more about not wanting to be at work than it is about wanting to train. lol


That may or may not be a contributing factor.


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## ireth0

Alla said:


> *sigh* anyone else get most of their want-to-train-right-now inspiration in the early/middle portion of the day while being stuck at work?


Yep! Especially if it's a nice day. I'm all "uuuugh I just want to go home and work with my dogggggg"


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## CptJack

Molly was reactive exactly once on vacation, in spite of tons of people and other dogs. Great, right?

Except that lasted precisely as long as we weren't home. Home again? Right back to it. 

WTF.

I still mostly don't care, am not stressed about it, but erm.


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## CrimsonAccent

Alert barking. That's fine. But first night in the apartment I was up all night. I think part of it is one of my neighbors goes out to smoke randomly at all hours.

Doing better now but ughhh.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Molly was reactive exactly once on vacation, in spite of tons of people and other dogs. Great, right?
> 
> Except that lasted precisely as long as we weren't home. Home again? Right back to it.
> 
> WTF.
> 
> I still mostly don't care, am not stressed about it, but erm.


I don't know, that seems pretty normal to me. Watson is less reactive on vacation. For one there are lots of dogs and things going on so it becomes routine. He's also tired because vacations are exhausting.


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## CptJack

Yeah. There's also the element of not being out with us alone the whole vacation which may or may not act like a confidence boost. Still pretty immediate 'Yep, we're home where I act like cujo at dogs', but we'll see how long that carries on. This week's going to be pretty quiet, but after that we're back to agility and CAT with her.


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## Eenypup

Started teaching a "settle down" cue for Bennie to stop her wonderful licking of human skin, particularly faces. Why oh why didn't I think of training this sooner? She's already started to pick up on it and this may be a godsend for her becoming less annoying when meeting new people!!


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## CptJack

Eenypup said:


> Started teaching a "settle down" cue for Bennie to stop her wonderful licking of human skin, particularly faces. Why oh why didn't I think of training this sooner? She's already started to pick up on it and this may be a godsend for her becoming less annoying when meeting new people!!


AWESOME! I always get amazed and kind of confused at myself when I don't work on something and it turns out to be really helpful and pretty fast!

--

So, we're back at it. Tuesday this week another train at the park. Next week agility starts again. Probably an agility lesson this weekend if the trainer has room for me, and a dock diving thing on Saturday. 

I'm considering an Intermediate Obedience Class with Kylie (or Thud), that leads up toward CGC, but really not sure about that one. I think she'd be fine, and it doesn't start until Sept 10, but it would have me doing like 3 dog classes/lessons a week and that's quite a lot - especially since it's running up through the next couple/few agility trials and would make it 4X a week at points, with 2 days of trials on a few weekends and that's a WHOLE HECK OF A LOT (split between dogs though, so not bad for the dogs just ME). I do think if I decide I can't hack it this session I'll look into it for its next session/after Molly's done with Agility classes.

ETA: Oh wait. Molly's behavioral modification stuff. Okay, that's a ton. Um. I'm investigating anyway, but more for future because holy HECK.


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## Kyllobernese

On Wednesdays, I do some Agility with Kris, then do our Obedience work but on Saturdays I do the same again with Kris, then afterwards I do Agility with Remmy and Lucy. None of them are really "classes" but practice as we have absolutely no classes going on anywhere right now and have not all summer. I am lucky I have access to all the Agility equipment and a great bunch of people to practice the Obedience with. Kris could probably get her C.D. degree now but I have Agility trials at the end of the month and then also the following weekend.

I am trying to decide whether to start her in a Rally trial or an Obedience trial once the Agility is over. Does anyone think it matters which one I do first?


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## elrohwen

Kyllobernese said:


> I am trying to decide whether to start her in a Rally trial or an Obedience trial once the Agility is over. Does anyone think it matters which one I do first?


Does she like one better than the other? Watson really enjoys Rally. He likes that it is faced paced and the changing signs keep him on his toes. I can lose him easily on long straight stretches of heeling, but throw in a left u-turn and he's back in the game. The randomness keeps him engaged. For that reason we have a long way to go before he will be ready for a CD, but in the mean time he has fun with Rally.

Rally is also much easier because you can talk and cue things however you want. Much easier on a green dog. For those reasons alone I would try that first with a young dog even if she doesn't have much of a preference.


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## CptJack

I hadn't done any training at all with Molly (or anyone else) in about ten days. Lots of exercise, but nothing mental. I had her work for her dinner today and oh my gosh she was so, so happy. Bouncy, wiggling, grinning, leaping up to lick my nose NUT when she realized what we were doing. She settled down fast and got super intense, but she was just overwrought with happy when she realized learning was back on the table.


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## Kyllobernese

I know Kris gets bored quite fast just doing a lot of heeling as I have run her through the CD work fairly often but if I add in some quick turns, etc. she wakes right up so probably Rally would be best for her plus I think it is a lot more fun myself. Thanks.


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## kadylady

CptJack said:


> I hadn't done any training at all with Molly (or anyone else) in about ten days. Lots of exercise, but nothing mental. I had her work for her dinner today and oh my gosh she was so, so happy. Bouncy, wiggling, grinning, leaping up to lick my nose NUT when she realized what we were doing. She settled down fast and got super intense, but she was just overwrought with happy when she realized learning was back on the table.


That's how Skye was last week when I started the new put the ball in the box trick with her. I've been a total training slacker lately and she just lite up she was so happy to be thinking! I did a little heeling work with all the dogs last night and all 3 of them were like YES TRAINING!!! And holy wow, Skye is heeling really nicely! How is it that the 2 girls, who I have spent so little time working heeling with, have the best heeling?! And Luke, who I have spent SO MUCH time working on heeling, has the worst?! I mean his heeling is not bad by any means, but the girls totally rock heeling in a way I don't think he ever will. And I have to figure out how to get over that!


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> That's how Skye was last week when I started the new put the ball in the box trick with her. I've been a total training slacker lately and she just lite up she was so happy to be thinking! I did a little heeling work with all the dogs last night and all 3 of them were like YES TRAINING!!! And holy wow, Skye is heeling really nicely! How is it that the 2 girls, who I have spent so little time working heeling with, have the best heeling?! And Luke, who I have spent SO MUCH time working on heeling, has the worst?! I mean his heeling is not bad by any means, but the girls totally rock heeling in a way I don't think he ever will. And I have to figure out how to get over that!


Not sure if this is the case for you, but for mine I am sure Hazel's heeling will be so much better because I'm imprinting the correct behavior from a very young age. Watson did a very loose heel (more LLW than focused heel) for about a year before I taught anything else, and he'll go back to that if he's stressed or tired or whatever. Hazel won't have any other behavior to go back to.


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## CptJack

There's also just the matter of handler focus. Molly has a natural head-up, stare you in the face behavior that improved her heeling about 200% above and beyond the other dogs. I still hate heeling (personally, I get weird trying to move with the dog in a heel, still), but she and Kylie are both way more inclined to wrap themselves around and stare you in the face as just their natural means of moving along with their person. It's not 'natural heeling', for sure, but about half the behavior is there already because they WANT to be staring up at you/looking you in the eye and want to be close.


----------



## TGKvr

Training-wise, G has regressed when it comes to jumping. She knows not to jump when I get home, and she does great until I go to pet her then she goes bonkers. It's like she feels that if she sits pretty for the initial greeting, then it's open season after that! She's a little tank, too, so jumping on people is NOT cool, and I won't put up with it. Looks like we need to really focus on this behavior right now.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> There's also just the matter of handler focus. Molly has a natural head-up, stare you in the face behavior that improved her heeling about 200% above and beyond the other dogs. I still hate heeling (personally, I get weird trying to move with the dog in a heel, still), but she and Kylie are both way more inclined to wrap themselves around and stare you in the face as just their natural means of moving along with their person. It's not 'natural heeling', for sure, but about half the behavior is there already because they WANT to be staring up at you/looking you in the eye and want to be close.


That's true. Hazel came pre-programmed to walk at heel staring up at my face. That is not a natural behavior for Watson in any way and just getting him to walk on a loose leash next to be without looking up was a challenge. A focused heel for Watson takes all of his energy and brain power. I have a feeling that it will be far easier for Hazel.


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Not sure if this is the case for you, but for mine I am sure Hazel's heeling will be so much better because I'm imprinting the correct behavior from a very young age. Watson did a very loose heel (more LLW than focused heel) for about a year before I taught anything else, and he'll go back to that if he's stressed or tired or whatever. Hazel won't have any other behavior to go back to.





CptJack said:


> There's also just the matter of handler focus. Molly has a natural head-up, stare you in the face behavior that improved her heeling about 200% above and beyond the other dogs. I still hate heeling (personally, I get weird trying to move with the dog in a heel, still), but she and Kylie are both way more inclined to wrap themselves around and stare you in the face as just their natural means of moving along with their person. It's not 'natural heeling', for sure, but about half the behavior is there already because they WANT to be staring up at you/looking you in the eye and want to be close.


Yes, pretty much a combination of both of the above. I had no idea what I was even looking for when I first taught Luke to "heel". And yes, the girls are both much more handler focused and that heads up style seems to come much more natural to them. 

Slightly related, I've decided to forgo the obedience route with Luke for the time being and start working on his RAE instead. I think both of us will be happier working towards that together than obedience titles. I put too much pressure on us both when I was trying to work towards obedience with him and our training relationship suffered. It may be something I pursue with Skye though. Unfortunately I don't think Zoey could ever survive an exam by a judge, otherwise she would be about ready to go for a BN or CD.


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## elrohwen

Hazel's agility foundation stuff is coming along so well. She still won't lie down without a heavy hand lure, but girl is getting the hang of running around a cone and 2o2o position. I have my priorities. Haha. The agility instructor we worked with recommended "Foundation Fundamentals" DVDs so we've started those too (only watched one so far and it was all impulse control games). I can't wait to get this puppy into a class - she's going to be a rockstar.

Question for those of you who do agility. Should I worry about getting the around-the-cone behavior on verbal directional cues? Right now she tends to alternate which way she goes, and I'm fine with that now as she's working both sides. I feel like in a real agility situation she will be using more body language than anything to figure out which way, but I know some trainers are really into the whole right/left and cik/cap stuff. Thoughts?


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Hazel's agility foundation stuff is coming along so well. She still won't lie down without a heavy hand lure, but girl is getting the hang of running around a cone and 2o2o position. I have my priorities. Haha. The agility instructor we worked with recommended "Foundation Fundamentals" DVDs so we've started those too (only watched one so far and it was all impulse control games). I can't wait to get this puppy into a class - she's going to be a rockstar.
> 
> Question for those of you who do agility. Should I worry about getting the around-the-cone behavior on verbal directional cues? Right now she tends to alternate which way she goes, and I'm fine with that now as she's working both sides. I feel like in a real agility situation she will be using more body language than anything to figure out which way, but I know some trainers are really into the whole right/left and cik/cap stuff. Thoughts?


I don't use directionals for that. I use a 'here vs out' for obstacle discrimination, but for the just 'move away from me toward that obstacle', I rely on body language to tell the dog which way to go (or go around since in Nadac there are barrels they do go entirely around). Ie: If I'm flinging my right arm out and stepping with my right leg, take it from the right.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I don't use directionals for that. I use a 'here vs out' for obstacle discrimination, but for the just 'move away from me toward that obstacle', I rely on body language to tell the dog which way to go (or go around since in Nadac there are barrels they do go entirely around). Ie: If I'm flinging my right arm out and stepping with my right leg, take it from the right.


Yeah, that was what I was thinking originally.

But then I started googling the cik/cap stuff and it does make sense when applied to jumping. Basically as a cue for which way the dog should land. Considering the struggles I had teaching Watson a rear cross based on body language alone, I can see the application for times your dog can't see you well. Watson is also more handler focused than obstacle focused and I think it would help him to just focus on the jump.

I think for now I'll just continue to play around with it and get it on a solid body language cue (she was totally confused when I tried to "send" her since I've always kept my body language quiet) and then figure out verbals after that. I did try to put verbals on it with Watson and he got confused (because he was guessing) and then I gave up and went back to encouraging speed/confidence.


----------



## CptJack

I have guilt about Thud. 

I do all of this cool stuff with the girls, but just kind of sit and scratch my head at him. I'm going to take him to a dock diving event this weekend (I hope) and see how he does with that, just so I've taken him out for a special day working with me. He LIKES to work with me, he really does, but he's got a low tolerance for boredom repetition, little to no toy or food drive, and is enormously clumsy, with weak pasterns. 

He might actually be who ends up doing obedience/rally classes, at this rate. I honestly don't know, I just feel like I am cheating him in a fairly big way and I'm running out of things to teach him/do with him on my own. Meanwhile, the girls get all the fun things. (I don't have it with Bug and Jack because Bug does little bits of agility and mostly just wants to play and Jack mostly just wants to snuggle and be loved).


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I have guilt about Thud.
> 
> I do all of this cool stuff with the girls, but just kind of sit and scratch my head at him. I'm going to take him to a dock diving event this weekend (I hope) and see how he does with that, just so I've taken him out for a special day working with me. He LIKES to work with me, he really does, but he's got a low tolerance for boredom repetition, little to no toy or food drive, and is enormously clumsy, with weak pasterns.
> 
> He might actually be who ends up doing obedience/rally classes, at this rate. I honestly don't know, I just feel like I am cheating him in a fairly big way and I'm running out of things to teach him/do with him on my own. Meanwhile, the girls get all the fun things. (I don't have it with Bug and Jack because Bug does little bits of agility and mostly just wants to play and Jack mostly just wants to snuggle and be loved).


Try Rally! It's easy to get started with and he may like it.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, that was what I was thinking originally.
> 
> But then I started googling the cik/cap stuff and it does make sense when applied to jumping. Basically as a cue for which way the dog should land. Considering the struggles I had teaching Watson a rear cross based on body language alone, I can see the application for times your dog can't see you well. Watson is also more handler focused than obstacle focused and I think it would help him to just focus on the jump.
> 
> I think for now I'll just continue to play around with it and get it on a solid body language cue (she was totally confused when I tried to "send" her since I've always kept my body language quiet) and then figure out verbals after that. I did try to put verbals on it with Watson and he got confused (because he was guessing) and then I gave up and went back to encouraging speed/confidence.


The application for using it with jumps is, I think, a little different than just sending. You can work on teaching the directionals with the cone or cones, for sure, but I think the sending part of the equation is a little different. For that one you just want the dog to ultimately 'go over there and do the thing' with some distance from you. So, for me, it's two different skills that taught from a similar foundation. 

Basically: Do what you're doing. You'll probably split off once you've got her sending from both sides/looping in both directions. Replace the cone with jump uprights so she's sending THROUGH them from both directions to get 'send to an obstacle' and then I'd actually add a second jump or cone to work on the left/right _turns_/direction changes on landing and getting them on verbals. If that makes any sense at all.



elrohwen said:


> Try Rally! It's easy to get started with and he may like it.


I probably will, though probably not the class that starts 9-10. That one's intermediate and I think I actually want to strip it back and start him all the way at beginner. I also need to get him in and get his vaccinations updated before we start at the new place. I'm about 98% sure they don't accept titers. Anyway, yeah. Rally's in the lead. Just... SOMETHING. I'm bad at balancing and have guilt with those three no matter who isn't participating in a thing.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> The application for using it with jumps is, I think, a little different than just sending. You can work on teaching the directionals with the cone or cones, for sure, but I think the sending part of the equation is a little different. For that one you just want the dog to ultimately 'go over there and do the thing' with some distance from you. So, for me, it's two different skills that taught from a similar foundation.
> 
> Basically: Do what you're doing. You'll probably split off once you've got her sending from both sides/looping in both directions. Replace the cone with jump uprights so she's sending THROUGH them from both directions to get 'send to an obstacle' and then I'd actually add a second jump or cone to work on the left/right _turns_/direction changes on landing and getting them on verbals. If that makes any sense at all.


Hmm. All of the stuff I've read so far encourages teaching the directionals just with the cone/upright/random tree in a field. So basically the dog is still doing the behavior of circling the upright, and there happens to be a jump bar there in the finished version of the behavior. But the directional cues are solid well before a jump is introduced as an obstacle.

I also have the issue that I can't use my jump standards independently - the construction of the jumps has a ~4-5" horizontal pole that holds the jumps together. Fine for a dog like Watson who just steps over them, but more than I want Hazel to do. So if we can continue to use cones or trees that would be better.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Hmm. All of the stuff I've read so far encourages teaching the directionals just with the cone/upright/random tree in a field. So basically the dog is still doing the behavior of circling the upright, and there happens to be a jump bar there in the finished version of the behavior. But the directional cues are solid well before a jump is introduced as an obstacle.
> 
> I also have the issue that I can't use my jump standards independently - the construction of the jumps has a ~4-5" horizontal pole that holds the jumps together. Fine for a dog like Watson who just steps over them, but more than I want Hazel to do. So if we can continue to use cones or trees that would be better.


Oh, you can use cones and trees and buckets for basically eternity in most ways, it's just that eventually what you're doing with the send and what you're doing with a directional when landing a jump aren't exactly the same thing and the behavior/skill itself changes. 

When I'm sending a dog, I'm just... sending the dog away from me to the thing. That can be from the left or right, and whether you're working at home with a cone or not, the 'fling arm out and say 'out' (for me) jump' means the dog moves laterally away in the indicated direction and takes the jump. It's also part of discrimination (ie: here means come in and take the closer obstacle, out means move out and take the further one). It doesn't create a left/right turn at all. Left/right turning on the course is a different thing that still starts with the cone but is applied very, very differently and requires the dog perform a different behavior at a different place. 

At least if I understand what you're doing with it.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Oh, you can use cones and trees and buckets for basically eternity in most ways, it's just that eventually what you're doing with the send and what you're doing with a directional when landing a jump aren't exactly the same thing and the behavior/skill itself changes.
> 
> When I'm sending a dog, I'm just... sending the dog to the thing. That can be from the left or right, and whether you're working at home with a cone or not, the 'fling arm out and say 'out' (for me) jump' means the dog moves laterally away in the indicated direction and takes the jump from that direction. It doesn't create a left/right turn at all. Left/right turning on the course is a different thing that still starts with the cone but is applied very, very differently and requires the dog perform a different behavior at a different place.
> 
> At least if I understand what you're doing with it.


Hmm, maybe we are talking about different things?

From what I gather, the idea of cik/cap is that when you send the dog to a jump he knows exactly what type of jump you want. One means a collected jump with an immediate landing to the left, and the other is the same to the right. Then Sylvia Trkman at least has a different cue that means jump extended and keep going. 

I've always seen the training to go around an object as a foundation for wrapping around a jump standard while jumping. As far as just sending to go do something, I see that as something to be trained with targets/toys/mats more than wrapping around a cone. I wasn't doing any of the cone wrapping stuff to really work on sending to stuff specifically.


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## CptJack

Probably. I'm NADAC, but yeah. Our foundations of around the cone isn't about wrapping. We don't *HAVE* wraps/backsides in NADAC (I mean we wrap but we wrap for the direction change and speed, not to wrap closely around the standard to take it from behind) and frankly the courses are designed so the dog is running in full extension all the time, anyway. The 'get out' send to the cone is really just the dog moving away to the obstacle. So we start with it up close, and then end of foundations were having competition to see who can send the furthest. End of Beginner is sending the dog with that command to take a jump. The only targeting is at the end of obstacles to stop the dog on a contact, or reward them on the other side of a tunnel (or tire because we do teach people in classes who are going to AKC). 

I mean we have cases where the dogs need to make a sharp right turn, but in that case the turn toward you after a jump would just be calling the dog in with a "Here" or sending them away from you with a "switch" (aka tandem turn) (turning away at a sharp angle). Left/right verbals aren't so much to wrap poles they're just used to 'drive' the dog on a course - usually from a bonus box or in chances, from what I've seen. 

So yeah, I suspect we're talking different things.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Probably. I'm NADAC, but yeah. Our foundations of around the cone isn't about wrapping. We don't *HAVE* wraps/backsides in NADAC (I mean we wrap but we wrap for the direction change and speed, not to wrap closely around the standard to take it from behind) and frankly the courses are designed so the dog is running in full extension all the time, anyway. The 'get out' send to the cone is really just the dog moving away to the obstacle. So we start with it up close, and then end of foundations were having competition to see who can send the furthest. End of Beginner is sending the dog with that command to take a jump. The only targeting is at the end of obstacles to stop the dog on a contact, or reward them on the other side of a tunnel (or tire because we do teach people in classes who are going to AKC).
> 
> I mean we have cases where the dogs need to make a sharp right turn, but in that case the turn toward you after a jump would just be calling the dog in with a "Here" or a "switch" (aka tandem turn) (turning away at a sharp angle). Left/right verbals aren't so much to wrap poles they're just used to 'drive' the dog on a course - usually from a bonus box or in chances, from what I've seen.
> 
> So yeah, I suspect we're talking different things.


We don't seem to have NADAC here that I've seen. Most of the foundation stuff I've worked with (books, FDSA class, in person class, etc) emphasized wrapping a jump standard from early levels (though we never moved on enough to get the finished product), so maybe it is just a fundamental difference in training for fundamentally different courses.

I've been working on a basic send behavior with just a mat. Of course I am getting more distance from the cone, so it is a send behavior, but I was more concerned with the wrapping part and speed than the sending to an obstacle part.

ETA: For cik/cap I wasn't referring to backsides at all. Not sure if it's used for that, but I have worked on backsides at the foundation level in class and through FDSA. It was 100% body language cues though.


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## CptJack

I honestly suspect that it's basically the same thing with different words, upon reflecting on it more. You use left/right or whatever, we're just using the directionals in relation to the person (ie: either turn toward me or away from me), with an extra emphasis on distance handling. Uprights still get wrapped pretty danged close and hard fairly frequently (even on novice and serps everywhere) and sharp turns, though without having to wrap the dog to take a backside (I've done some of that before I realized it wasn't relevant to my venue). 

So my basic advice stays the same. Get the body language, then add a verbal. Regardless of venue any time you are running a full course your dog is going to rely more on body language than words, anyway, even playing weird distance games. You just need to make sure the criteria of wrapping close stays in place or exists.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I honestly suspect that it's basically the same thing with different words, upon reflecting on it more. You use left/right or whatever, we're just using the directionals in relation to the person (ie: either turn toward me or away from me), with an extra emphasis on distance handling. Uprights still get wrapped pretty danged close and hard fairly frequently (even on novice and serps everywhere) and sharp turns, though without having to wrap the dog to take a backside (I've done some of that before I realized it wasn't relevant to my venue).
> 
> So my basic advice stays the same. Get the body language, then add a verbal. Regardless of venue any time you are running a full course your dog is going to rely more on body language than words, anyway, even playing weird distance games. You just need to make sure the criteria of wrapping close stays in place or exists.


If the dog only knows to turn towards you or turn away, how do you cue a rear cross (which is neither towards you or way)? Just curious though I think I know the answer. In the limited stuff I've done with Watson that was the only thing that we really got stuck on. If he's looking at the jump he's not looking at me and lands the wrong way and corrects after (which would be terrible for his joints at high speeds/full height). Or he is watching me too much and pulls off the jump. Having a super clear verbal like cik/cap seems like it would really clarify things there.

That's the primary use I see for cik/cap but I haven't watched the videos or anything. Well, that an the fact that you are cueing collection (though obviously that's done off of body language too). But yeah, the whole reason I asked is that I feel like the dog is going to cue far more off of body language so why work so hard to teach a verbal cue. Trkman runs international style courses though and I get the feeling they might require something like that, where your body language is doing one thing (because you have to get somewhere quickly) while your verbal is telling the dog to do what you want. I don't know.

Also, her article says that cik/cap is specifically a jump cue, so not a directional cue you would use on the flat at all, which is a lot of what you're referring to I think. I imagine she has other cues that she uses for directionals between jumps.


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## CrimsonAccent

Two quick questions: 

I picked up a link for the Relaxation Protocol in a different thread and am thinking of trying it out (if nothing else, for the proofing opportunity). Basic question that is probably answered in the mound of text I skimmed: C/T only if the dog is relaxed during the exercise, correct? So a relaxed Sit for 5 seconds is C/T but if we work up to Sit while clapping my hands and whining/barking/tensing up occurs, we back down to an earlier step and C/T the earlier step if relaxed. 

Mainly considering this for Donut. Both are adjusting to the apartment fairly well, but Donut needs work. In the apartment itself he is fine. We walk to the shared grassy fenced area for a potty break and once he does his business he is whining, running up to us and clearly wanting to go back home (he will stress drool to the point of looking foamy-rabid) while we are waiting for Cupcake to finish up her business. 

So I figured we could hopefully work up to him being at ease outside. I'm hoping he'll relax eventually due to exposure (I mean we are going to be outside the apartment a minimum of 3-4 times a day for potty breaks, much less a longer walk) but wouldn't mind speeding it up so he can be less stressed faster.

Second question: 

How does Sit on the Dog work as far as theory goes? I mean, I get how to do the exercise, but the original post talks about "dominance" which skeeved me out. I wanted to know what the actual benefit was/how it worked in DF terms  I'm assuming you get an extinction burst and the dog gives up and just flops? I just wasn't sure if that would prove to be too much of a frustration on the dog, or has anyone here had success with it and recommend it?


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## elrohwen

CrimsonAccent said:


> Two quick questions:
> 
> I picked up a link for the Relaxation Protocol in a different thread and am thinking of trying it out (if nothing else, for the proofing opportunity). Basic question that is probably answered in the mound of text I skimmed: C/T only if the dog is relaxed during the exercise, correct? So a relaxed Sit for 5 seconds is C/T but if we work up to Sit while clapping my hands and whining/barking/tensing up occurs, we back down to an earlier step and C/T the earlier step if relaxed.


When I've done it I don't click at all. I just softly say "yes" and give a treat, or even "good dog". I want my dog to be bored out of his mind by the whole thing so he relaxes, and the clicker cues that we're doing something exciting and he should be on his toes. I will give treats at the end of each section, or randomly in the middle if he does something that shows he's relaxing. If the dog can't handle something without getting excited or getting up, then either re-do that day or drop back a day.

I think the audio is much easier to use than the written protocol:
http://championofmyheart.com/relaxation-protocol-mp3-files/



> How does Sit on the Dog work as far as theory goes? I mean, I get how to do the exercise, but the original post talks about "dominance" which skeeved me out. I wanted to know what the actual benefit was/how it worked in DF terms  I'm assuming you get an extinction burst and the dog gives up and just flops? I just wasn't sure if that would prove to be too much of a frustration on the dog, or has anyone here had success with it and recommend it?


Yeah, basically the extinction burst part. The dog learns that when you're sitting in a chair and he's on leash, he's not going to go anywhere or get to do anything fun (like jump on your lap or bug you) so he might as well just give up and relax. I did it a lot with Watson when he was an adolescent, and I bring it out whenever we go to a restaurant or something where he is fidgety. It is frustrating for them at first, but since you aren't asking for anything or paying any attention to them they work it out pretty quickly.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> If the dog only knows to turn towards you or turn away, how do you cue a rear cross (which is neither towards you or way)? Just curious though I think I know the answer.


Honestly, I have never in my life cued a flat or regular rear cross or needed to. So I'm no help there. I mean, I use them a lot (a lot a lot) but I've never had the dog not pretty well read them instantly/intuitively. I had to work my butt off to get the turn away from me in a tandem turn/switch, but just me crossing them on the flat, between obstacles, or while they're on one isn't something I had to teach either one. The dog goes ahead of me, does the obstacle (or just runs ahead), I cut behind, and they get picked up on the other side and we go on. I mean, provided I don't start the cross way too early or too late and 'fake them out' in which case cuing wouldn't have helped, they'd have still spun around or had to correct. 

Yay handler focused dogs? Or obstacle focused dogs? Not sure quite which one applies here. Yay me getting an easy out, mostly.

(Which is, I recognize, like negative help for you).


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Honestly, I have never in my life cued a flat or regular rear cross or needed to. So I'm no help there. I mean, I use them a lot, but I've never had the dog not pretty well read them instantly/intuitively. I had to work my butt off to get the turn away from me in a tandem turn/switch, but just me crossing them on the flat, between obstacles, or while they're on one isn't something I had to teach either one. The dog goes ahead of me, I cut behind, and they just... stick with me and get picked up on the other side and we go on. I mean, provided I don't start the cross way too early or too late and 'fake them out' in which case cuing wouldn't have helped, they'd have still spun around or had to correct.
> 
> Yay handler focused dogs?
> 
> (Which is, I recognize, like negative help for you).


I'm sure I wasn't cuing it 100% correctly or anything, but the fact that we got everything else in this intro course except that made me think there had to be a better way to teach it for Watson specifically. He just can't watch me and focus on a jump at the same time. I think if he had an independent cue to take the jump and wrap right, or take it and wrap left, no matter what I was doing (I could just stand still) he would realize that it was possible to go either way. Right now he only goes the "standard" way and then lands and tries to find me which is silly and not the point of a rear cross. Or, like I said, he tries to watch me and then interprets my body language to mean "turn with me now, don't take that jump". We did do rear crosses in class (when we were still in class) with the exact same results (he landed and then spun around looking for where I went)


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I'm sure I wasn't cuing it 100% correctly or anything, but the fact that we got everything else in this intro course except that made me think there had to be a better way to teach it for Watson specifically. He just can't watch me and focus on a jump at the same time. I think if he had an independent cue to take the jump and wrap right, or take it and wrap left, no matter what I was doing (I could just stand still) he would realize that it was possible to go either way. Right now he only goes the "standard" way and then lands and tries to find me which is silly and not the point of a rear cross. Or, like I said, he tries to watch me and then interprets my body language to mean "turn with me now, don't take that jump". We did do rear crosses in class (when we were still in class) with the exact same results.


I kind of suspect some of it is that my dogs are used to running out in front of me almost from go, so me moving around back there doesn't influence them much. Whether that's obstacle focus, handler focus, or just that they are used to me being a slow poke. I do use verbal cues, but it's me verbally cuing the next obstacle for them early (like when they're just going into a tunnel or taking off from one jump I cue what they're next obstacle is going to be.) so me moving around/switching sides/wahtever isn't too terribly important to them. I DID briefly have an issue with Molly wanting to stare at me (or my arm) instead of the obstacle, but the solution to that really was just obstacle focus - driving toward the obstacle, focusing on them and the next one, rather than me/my arm, and wasn't really related to crosses. Ie: It was an issue that showed up EVERYWHERE, including jump channels.


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## CptJack

Annnnd reading that again, I suspect you're just having some commitment issues more than rear cross issues. By which I mean he's not committing to the jump/obstacle and is willing to pull off to follow you. Might be confidence, might be not having enough value built in the jumping, might just be being very green.

Frustrating, either way.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I kind of suspect some of it is that my dogs are used to running out in front of me almost from go, so me moving around back there doesn't influence them much. Whether that's obstacle focus, handler focus, or just that they are used to me being a slow poke. I do use verbal cues, but it's me verbally cuing the next obstacle for them early (like when they're just going into a tunnel or taking off from one jump I cue what they're next obstacle is going to be.) so me moving around/switching sides/wahtever isn't too terribly important to them. I DID briefly have an issue with Molly wanting to stare at me (or my arm) instead of the obstacle, but the solution to that really was just obstacle focus - driving toward the obstacle, focusing on them and the next one, rather than me/my arm, and wasn't really related to crosses. Ie: It was an issue that showed up EVERYWHERE, including jump channels.


Well, when he is focused on the obstacle and driving forwards, he just does whatever he thinks is right, which is correct unless I'm trying to do a rear cross. He only knows that he can turn one way after a jump. I've seen similar behavior in other unrelated training - he's like Zoolander and only turns one way. LOL Like with those Dognition activities, in one case you hid a treat under a cup (on your left or right) and then pointed at it and your dog was suppose to go where you pointed. Watson went the same way (I think to his left) every single time without fail no matter what my body language was doing. So it's not even like he's that handler focused, he just gets patterned doing one thing and thinks he's right (and if I don't reward he gets frustrated, because clearly he's right), and then I have to get creative.

And part of the reason he's so handler focused is that I rewarded like mad after every single obstacle in class to prevent him from running up to other dogs. So now, unless it's a closely spaced grid, his immediate response to finishing an obstacle is to come and find me and get a treat, because that's exactly what I trained him to do. Just another reason why we weren't learning anything in classes because of the issue with focus/other dogs. At least working at home I can throw a toy or whatever, but it's 6 months of ingrained habits from class.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Annnnd reading that again, I suspect you're just having some commitment issues more than rear cross issues. By which I mean he's not committing to the jump/obstacle and is willing to pull off to follow you. Might be confidence, might be not having enough value built in the jumping, might just be being very green.
> 
> Frustrating, either way.


But what about when he does commit, but just goes the wrong way every single time because he didn't read my body language? He committed, but then he was wrong (because I "tricked him" and went to the other side) so next time he just doesn't take the jump and follows me. Lots of confusion with the methods I've tried. MrsBoats posted a lovely video for me on FB and I tried it, but without better results (it involved movement and two jumps and I think was more complicated from his point of view). A simple verbal that he understands no matter what I'm doing with my body language would probably help him. But that's a specific dog and situation and that's obviously not why Trkman loves using these cues, so there must be more to it.

I'm sure the issues is that he only commits to the jump if he doesn't notice me doing any weird body language, so then he turns the standard way. If he notices weird body language, then he assumes he's not supposed to jump and is supposed to follow me.


----------



## elrohwen

And this article basically talks about exactly what I'm getting at (not cik/cap, but following motion cues instead of taking an obstacle). I just round this randomly while looking up more stuff on directional cues:
http://awesomepaws.us/pdf/Reprint_AchievingABalance.pdf


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## Laurelin

We use cik/cap or left/right. Just FTR.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> We use cik/cap or left/right. Just FTR.


Do you just use it before a jump to cue collection and a turn? Or on the flat?

Did you do anything special to teach it or just work on wrapping around a cone and getting the direction on cue?


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Hmm. All of the stuff I've read so far encourages teaching the directionals just with the cone/upright/random tree in a field. So basically the dog is still doing the behavior of circling the upright, and there happens to be a jump bar there in the finished version of the behavior. But the directional cues are solid well before a jump is introduced as an obstacle.
> 
> I also have the issue that I can't use my jump standards independently - the construction of the jumps has a ~4-5" horizontal pole that holds the jumps together. Fine for a dog like Watson who just steps over them, but more than I want Hazel to do. So if we can continue to use cones or trees that would be better.


Yeah that's exactly what we do. I'm really bad at it but that's the idea at least. Hank and I both like extension. We're actually revisiting the left/right this week. Trying to get him to wrap much tighter because he doesn't want to.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Do you just use it before a jump to cue collection and a turn? Or on the flat?
> 
> Did you do anything special to teach it or just work on wrapping around a cone and getting the direction on cue?


Well I pretty much suck at teaching this but we start on a flat then add jump stands then a bar. 

So like if we're approaching a jump we'll have body language cuing collection and also 'cikcikcikcik!' (or leftleftlelft) as the dog wraps. Most of it is body language but we're really trying to clean up the wraps. It seems like the verbal helps give them a better understanding of what we want. Most our verbals are just collection vs extension.

My school seems to really follow Trkman style stuff.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Yeah that's exactly what we do. I'm really bad at it but that's the idea at least. Hank and I both like extension. We're actually revisiting the left/right this week. Trying to get him to wrap much tighter because he doesn't want to.


Do you get the direction on body language cues first and then add verbal? Like you send with the dog on your left, so they wrap to their right, and then add "right" as they do it? Then pull back the body language?

I tried teaching directions to Watson and he was just guessing and it slowed him way down because he lost confidence in what he was doing. Hazel is smarter so it might be easier, but I'm wondering if there is a better way to teach it.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Well I pretty much suck at teaching this but we start on a flat then add jump stands then a bar.
> 
> So like if we're approaching a jump we'll have body language cuing collection and also 'cikcikcikcik!' (or leftleftlelft) as the dog wraps. Most of it is body language but we're really trying to clean up the wraps. It seems like the verbal helps give them a better understanding of what we want. Most our verbals are just collection vs extension.
> 
> My school seems to really follow Trkman style stuff.


Oh, that is really good to know that you do a repeating cue like that, instead of just cik or cap or whatever as a single word. I haven't watched the video yet and there's not a lot of written stuff online, so I didn't realize that. I feel like it makes more sense somehow. Like I can see a dog understanding that much better.

I don't know what school anybody really follows around here. lol I need a beginner training class that is also advanced theory (kind of why the FDSA classes were nice). I like to know why I'm doing stuff, because I can understand how all of this fits together. But typically beginner classes just tell you what you need to know in that instant and let things slide that might be important later.


----------



## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> ETA: For cik/cap I wasn't referring to backsides at all. Not sure if it's used for that, but I have worked on backsides at the foundation level in class and through FDSA. It was 100% body language cues though.


I would think cik/cap on a backside would give you a backjump.



> Do you get the direction on body language cues first and then add verbal? Like you send with the dog on your left, so they wrap to their right, and then add "right" as they do it? Then pull back the body language?
> 
> I tried teaching directions to Watson and he was just guessing and it slowed him way down because he lost confidence in what he was doing. Hazel is smarter so it might be easier, but I'm wondering if there is a better way to teach it.


Yep, we get them understanding the body language then add in the verbal. The body language of collect vs extend stays permanently. Essentially we use the closer arm to the dog for extension and the other arm across the body (often held low) for collect.

I'm bad at explaining. 

I do find for me a lot of dogs don't get it at first. And they move slow. I've seen a few dogs take right to it but Hank HATED it. So that's part of why I admittedly have slacked on our wraps. I think now he's starting to 'get it' so I'm working to get wraps tighter now with speed. Yesterday he was naturally 'wrapping' about 12' past the jump until I was really really conscious of my handling. I am also figuring out sending via reverse send gets him a lot lot tighter. Jaakos also get him tighter. Avoiding post turns like the plague. 

My trainer is really good at the cik/cap. I also think having a bendy dog is helpful. Hank is not bendy.


----------



## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Oh, that is really good to know that you do a repeating cue like that, instead of just cik or cap or whatever as a single word. I haven't watched the video yet and there's not a lot of written stuff online, so I didn't realize that. I feel like it makes more sense somehow. Like I can see a dog understanding that much better.
> 
> I don't know what school anybody really follows around here. lol I need a beginner training class that is also advanced theory (kind of why the FDSA classes were nice). I like to know why I'm doing stuff, because I can understand how all of this fits together. But typically beginner classes just tell you what you need to know in that instant and let things slide that might be important later.


Yeah watch Silvia run some. She will use a constant cikcikcikcik the entire wrap. And her handling is just beautiful. So good at cuing with her arm position and body position.

You do end up using what the trainers use. My trainer uses OMD a lot and also Trkman. So that's what I learn. There have been some times where the Fenzi stuff clashes so I typically just do what my trainer does in the end.


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## Laurelin

Silvia has a cik/cap dvd I think you can buy on clean run. Never watched it but it's popular.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Silvia has a cik/cap dvd I think you can buy on clean run. Never watched it but it's popular.


I can rent it from Bowwowflix, but I have a bunch of stuff I'd rather watch first (foundation stuff we can work on now). At the rate I get videos it will be a while, so I was hoping I could get enough of an idea to decide if I want to put effort into the foundation stuff now with Hazel or not.

I'm such an overthinker. People tell me to teach my dog to go around a cone, and I'm the annoying one saying "But why? What is the end goal?" Because if there are different end goals I will approach it differently. With Watson I tried to do foundation stuff (for obedience as well) but I didn't know where I was going with it so I didn't do it effectively. Now I have a much better idea of what I want from Hazel, except for a some of the more specific agility stuff


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## Laurelin

I think you have time with her.  It's one of the earliest things we start once we bring out jump standards. Definitely look up Silvia Trkman's runs (they're all over youtube) and you can hear and see how she uses it.

I guess a lot just depends on what agility you end up doing. Really tight wraps show up in like... USDAA tournaments or international type stuff. But basic AKC courses it's probably not as critical to have super tight wraps. In general though I feel like for dogs like Hank that are prone to turning wide it's important to work on. Sometimes he goes so wide he won't hit the lines I've tried to set. Then you get back jumps and missed obstacles and blah.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I think you have time with her.  It's one of the earliest things we start once we bring out jump standards. Definitely look up Silvia Trkman's runs (they're all over youtube) and you can hear and see how she uses it.
> 
> I guess a lot just depends on what agility you end up doing. Really tight wraps show up in like... USDAA tournaments or international type stuff. But basic AKC courses it's probably not as critical to have super tight wraps. In general though I feel like for dogs like Hank that are prone to turning wide it's important to work on. Sometimes he goes so wide he won't hit the lines I've tried to set. Then you get back jumps and missed obstacles and blah.


I've heard of AKC, CPE, and USDAA around here. It's unlikely we will ever get out of novice honestly, with how much I dislike trialing in general, but I'd like to give it a go and at least do well in classes and things. I'm mostly looking for stuff to do with her since I've gotten a good start on most of the foundation stuff, and I'm notoriously bad at finishing stuff and putting it fully on cue. lol It's more fun to find other things to work on! Part of why I wondered about cik/cap because that seems like a relatively hard thing to get on cue without the dog just guessing a lot. 

I won't be able to do standard classes with her until she's close to a year, because they all introduce jumping and weaving right away. Even then I didn't really like the classes (didn't tell me what I should work on at home, too much obstacle focus). Though I hope we can keep doing privates (split it between the dogs) and at least then we'll have feedback.


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## CptJack

Tonight's session at the park (probably the last one) was weird. 

Basically we got there early and left early, it was raining and there were two teams practicing football. Little kids (like 7-8, I think). Only two other dogs from our group before we left, plus a little white poodle thing and bitty aussie puppy toodling around.

She wasn't bad overall? I mean yeah, she barked some, but not a lot. We even played tug and worked some within a few feet of the dogs from our group without any drama. It was just... she started out kind of flakey and distracted which is normal, got it together for a little bit and did some work that was... not great but decent, and then her brain fell entirely out of her ear and she was about as engaged as Thud on a bad day when he was 9 months old. I don't know if it was stress, just being overexcited to be back out there, or not having to use her brain for a bit or what, but it was just *weird*.

Agility classes start again next week. Guess we'll see where she's at, then.


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## CptJack

Apropos of absolutely nothing, I put Molly scooting in a sit on cue and taught Kylie to put her font feet on a basketball and walk with it/push it from there. 

Sometimes I REALLY need to remember to go back to silly fun stuff. It's lighter for the dogs and me, and more fun for all of us as a result.


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## pawsaddict

Proud of Nova this morning. We started the first exercise in one of Susan Garrett's DVDs. It is to get the dog to focus on their line. I thought Nova was going to have a really tough time with it and just bolt for the toy, but I threw it, she held her stay, looked at it, and waited to be released. She was great.

Just fyi, Elrowhen, in this DVD Susan Garrett talks about her cues for tightly wrapping a jump or taking the jump long (and how to teach it). I like the idea of having those cues. I have Sylvia's Cik/Cap DVD in my bowwowflix queue, but I can't even tell where my left is half the time, so we will see how that turns out 

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk


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## elrohwen

I actually watched the first DVD of that series but I didn't take notes. Lots of the stuff was pretty similar to the FDSA handling class I did which was nice to see. I don't remember her wrap cues though! I wasn't paying attention for that part. Might have to rent it again.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Ember will now bring her ball to be thrown. She will roll it closer to us with her nose and wait for us to pick it up. She is still a bit too overstimulated by the frisbee. She wants to give it up to be thrown (she will flip it over toward us and stare at it) but then will proceed to grab it back again when we reach for it. Little jerk.


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## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Ember will now bring her ball to be thrown. She will roll it closer to us with her nose and wait for us to pick it up. She is still a bit too overstimulated by the frisbee. She wants to give it up to be thrown (she will flip it over toward us and stare at it) but then will proceed to grab it back again when we reach for it. Little jerk.


Yay about the ball!

I think she'll get the frisbee too. I would just reach for it and if she goes for it, stand back up. Like It's Yer Choice for frisbee throwing.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I think she'll get the frisbee too. I would just reach for it and if she goes for it, stand back up. Like It's Yer Choice for frisbee throwing.


Yep. This is what we had to do with Molly and the disc. I also had to eventually stop even reaching for it - the ball I take and she lets go, because I want it brought to hand. To hand took a lot longer for Molly with the disc, because it was harder for her to GIVE IT TO US than it was just drop it on the ground.


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## elrohwen

Grey the ACDx wouldn't bring balls to hand for a while. Every time you reached he would run off just out of reach, and it was this back and forth. I told my friends I would fix it, so I sat there with my hand open and let him pop back and forth a couple times. It took two reps before he was like "Oh, I just have to put it in her hand and she throws it." And that was that! And this is why Grey is like 100x smarter than Watson. Haha. I've tried stuff like that with Watson and he just really doesn't get it.


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## TGKvr

Every time I'm tempted to try a frisbee I realize... yeahhhh I don't want to do that. We have a little disc golf course at our house and I don't need her eating my discs!  Then there's also the problem where she just doesn't understand "catching" anything. She'll let something hit her in the face before she opens her mouth to catch it! LOL!


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

That is pretty much what we are doing. She takes some serious waiting out sometimes, depending on her intensity. We'll get to the handing it directly to us eventually, but it is still a work in progress. I'm pretty happy with the ball being dropped near us with no fight at all. She is getting SO FUN.


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> Every time I'm tempted to try a frisbee I realize... yeahhhh I don't want to do that. We have a little disc golf course at our house and I don't need her eating my discs!  Then there's also the problem where she just doesn't understand "catching" anything. She'll let something hit her in the face before she opens her mouth to catch it! LOL!


Well, you wouldn't throw it right at her. Haha. You start with rollers on the ground for them to chase, and work up to catching a frisbee in motion.

I personally have no interest in frisbee because I'm the worst frisbee thrower on the planet. I'll stick to other toys.


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## CptJack

Even when they're doing well with disc, most people don't throw the disc at the dog. The dog and the disc leave you about the same time. Where and how exactly depend on how it's trained, but you don't throw TO the dog. You throw, and the dog chases and, yeah, eventually gets the catching part. On the ground first like it's a ball, then low and easy, then more seriously. 

That said, I wouldn't be teaching this with a disc golf place near me. Talk about distraction. Or just, yeah, an invitation for eaten discs.


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## TGKvr

Well I may have my own disc golf course but I'll never claim to be good at throwing them. Hahahaa!!! I'm actually pretty terrible but it's a lot of fun. My dog's favorite play toy outside is a big plastic ball with a rope through it that she'll roll around and sling back and forth, and carry while running full speed under the leland cypress trees, resulting in me constantly trying to get pine sap off of her and making sure her scratches stay clean.


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## CptJack

The longer I go and the more I think the more I realize I am held back or shot in the foot more by not trusting my dogs more than I am any other training challenge. I limit the heck out of them by anticipating disaster or failure. I have no idea how to stop this, besides continuing to not let myself micromanage and faking confidence, but jeeze it's hard. I think I need CBT for _this_. Or, well, to apply the principals to it.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> The longer I go and the more I think the more I realize I am held back or shot in the foot more by not trusting my dogs more than I am any other training challenge. I limit the heck out of them by anticipating disaster or failure. I have no idea how to stop this, besides continuing to not let myself micromanage and faking confidence, but jeeze it's hard. I think I need CBT for _this_. Or, well, to apply the principals to it.


I don't really trust Watson a lot of the time (around other dogs, off leash, etc). Though I feel like I'm pretty justified in that since he pretty much always makes the wrong decisions on his own. I don't know how to reverse the cycle.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I don't really trust Watson a lot of the time (around other dogs, off leash, etc). Though I feel like I'm pretty justified in that since he pretty much always makes the wrong decisions on his own. _I don't know how to reverse the cycle_.


This is exactly it for me, I think. 

I spent so long managing Kylie's shyness and Molly's reactivity that now I have the hardest time letting it go and just... trusting them. Every time I let Molly off leash to work in agility I have my heart in my throat. I don't want to take my eyes off her to blind cross and it's _no longer justified_. People ask to pet Kylie and I automatically want to say no, or hover in terror that she's going to be uncomfortable when they pet her, and Kylie could not care less. Thud's had a beautiful, reliable, recall for the better part of a year, now, and certainly six months, but I still flail emotionally when he's out of arms reach and want to immediately recall him, even though I know logically he's gold and the area is safe. 

It's just all these learned habits and ingrained emotional responses, and I am so, so getting in my own way. It's mostly a thing with Molly right now, but apparently just letting go and moving on is something I suck at and it is absolutely now negatively impacting their training and confidence, and probably their behavior. 

Stupid brains.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> This is exactly it for me, I think.
> 
> I spent so long managing Kylie's shyness and Molly's reactivity that now I have the hardest time letting it go and just... trusting them. Every time I let Molly off leash to work in agility I have my heart in my throat. I don't want to take my eyes off her to blind cross and it's _no longer justified_. People ask to pet Kylie and I automatically want to say no, or hover in terror that she's going to be uncomfortable when they pet her, and Kylie could not care less. Thud's had a beautiful, reliable, recall for the better part of a year, now, and certainly six months, but I still flail emotionally when he's out of arms reach and want to immediately recall him, even though I know logically he's gold and the area is safe.
> 
> It's just all these learned habits and ingrained emotional responses, and I am so, so getting in my own way. It's mostly a thing with Molly right now, but apparently just letting go and moving on is something I suck at and it is absolutely now negatively impacting their training and confidence, and probably their behavior.
> 
> Stupid brains.


I try to let Watson have freedom to make decisions, but he lets me down every time. I don't know how to teach him to make correct decisions on his own and he needs to be micromanaged a lot. I think we need to find a place where I am less controlling, but to get there he needs to show me he can deal with the freedom appropriately, and so far I haven't seen that. We're kind of stuck chicken and the egg.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I try to let Watson have freedom to make decisions, but he lets me down every time. I don't know how to teach him to make correct decisions on his own and he needs to be micromanaged a lot. I think we need to find a place where I am less controlling, but to get there he needs to show me he can deal with the freedom appropriately, and so far I haven't seen that. We're kind of stuck chicken and the egg.


I swear I meant to bold the 'don't know how to stop the cycle'. My cycle is different than yours, but ergh. 

I really don't know what to do in either case. I seriously think we need actual therapists in dog training, sometimes. Then again, that's kind of what we do for each other, here, anyway, so maybe I should just be grateful for that. 

(This is one case where lately I want a SOLUTION. There isn't a clear one, but if someone drew me a map and gave me a list of instructions I would not be upset about it.)


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## elrohwen

This place is my dog training support group and therapy. 

My biggest issues with Watson is sometimes I just don't know where to go with him. I feel like we are both frustrating each other (he wants to sniff, I won't let him; I want to train and he wants to sniff). If I could finally find someone to lay it all out for me and start to see real progress it wouldn't be so frustrating. I've gone through so many trainers and the number who have set us back is higher than the number who have really helped.

So much of dog training and training classes is just teaching skills, which is really frustrating. I can train the skills, but I need relationship help.


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## Alla

elrohwen said:


> So much of dog training and training classes is just teaching skills, which is really frustrating. I can train the skills, but I need relationship help.


Sounds like a Gold spot in FDSA Engagement in December might be in the future for you and I...


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## CptJack

We were back at agility tonight. Couple of new dogs who haven't been there since our first foundations class, and you know. Molly barked some. Growled a little bit. Leaped all over the instructor twice (happily) and was generally high as a kite. Mostly, though, I realized that if I put her in front of an obstacle or sequence tell her to stay and take the leash off, she's going to stay. When I cue the obstacle/sequence, she's going to do it. She isn't going to go after anyone (dog or human). 

So, my "I don't care" attitude seems to have returned, for good or ill. I have to admit that I hope it sticks around, though. It's much more pleasant inside my head right now.

I suspect the fact that NO ONE is threatened by her anymore helps my anxiety level with it, too. Ie: We're down to everyone just mocking her, rather than being afraid of her. I mean we respect her, and they're being good with her, but 'yeah, yeah, we know, someone's on the phone out there, thanks for telling us'. kind of dismissive jokey stuff.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> We were back at agility tonight. Couple of new dogs who haven't been there since our first foundations class, and you know. Molly barked some. Growled a little bit. Leaped all over the instructor twice (happily) and was generally high as a kite. Mostly, though, I realized that if I put her in front of an obstacle or sequence tell her to stay and take the leash off, she's going to stay. When I cue the obstacle/sequence, she's going to do it. She isn't going to go after anyone (dog or human).
> 
> So, my "I don't care" attitude seems to have returned, for good or ill. I have to admit that I hope it sticks around, though. It's much more pleasant inside my head right now.
> 
> I suspect the fact that NO ONE is threatened by her anymore helps my anxiety level with it, too. Ie: We're down to everyone just mocking her, rather than being afraid of her. I mean we respect her, and they're being good with her, but 'yeah, yeah, we know, someone's on the phone out there, thanks for telling us'. kind of dismissive jokey stuff.


I think this is probably the perk of having a high drive dog. They can be reactive as heck, but when they have a job to do they can focus and get it done without being distracted by their reactivity. A dog without that level of drive would probably spend more time worrying about the presence of other dogs.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I think this is probably the perk of having a high drive dog. They can be reactive as heck, but when they have a job to do they can focus and get it done without being distracted by their reactivity. A dog without that level of drive would probably spend more time worrying about the presence of other dogs.


Yep, for sure. It's also really useful in the way that means I discard every bit of information out there that says you don't ask a dog who is reacting to learn/perform anything because they can't. Molly will _almost_ always work for me - I do lose her sometimes and when I do there's almost no getting her back, but almost- and if she is working, she's NOT barking/lunging/growling losing her crap at something. Working is also one of the best ways to get her back, period, if she's not too far gone.

I mean... she's not working at her best, still, for sure. She stresses high and she's definitely stressed enough to impact her performance - too fast, too flaily, not enough control - when compared to at home or when she's truly comfortable in a location. It is still a LONG way from "SEE-YA!", and I'll take it all day long.


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## TGKvr

So I'm not exactly sure this counts as "progress" but we had kind of a cool thing happen last night. I got home from work (I've been ignoring her completely which is definitely helping) and after a while, she wanted to go outside. So I was about to make dinner, and the hubs went to take her out... as they were walking to the door, she just kept looking back at me like MOMMMMM, I wanted YOU to go out with me!! It was so cute and funny, and he was a little offended by it. LOL! Anyway he took her out, and when I had dinner going she still wanted me to take her out which I did. As soon as we got outside, she ran in a giant circle, then came back to me full speed to spin around and sit in a heel position. Then she looked up at me like "see? I'm ready to work!" Then she went "down" then "sit" then looked at me again. It was hysterical... so obvious what she was telling me. Working dogs like to work!


----------



## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> So I'm not exactly sure this counts as "progress" but we had kind of a cool thing happen last night. I got home from work (I've been ignoring her completely which is definitely helping) and after a while, she wanted to go outside. So I was about to make dinner, and the hubs went to take her out... as they were walking to the door, she just kept looking back at me like MOMMMMM, I wanted YOU to go out with me!! It was so cute and funny, and he was a little offended by it. LOL! Anyway he took her out, and when I had dinner going she still wanted me to take her out which I did. As soon as we got outside, she ran in a giant circle, then came back to me full speed to spin around and sit in a heel position. Then she looked up at me like "see? I'm ready to work!" Then she went "down" then "sit" then looked at me again. It was hysterical... so obvious what she was telling me. Working dogs like to work!


That's awesome!


----------



## Flaming

Alla said:


> Sounds like a Gold spot in FDSA Engagement in December might be in the future for you and I...





elrohwen said:


> This place is my dog training support group and therapy.
> 
> My biggest issues with Watson is sometimes I just don't know where to go with him. I feel like we are both frustrating each other (he wants to sniff, I won't let him; I want to train and he wants to sniff). If I could finally find someone to lay it all out for me and start to see real progress it wouldn't be so frustrating. I've gone through so many trainers and the number who have set us back is higher than the number who have really helped.
> 
> So much of dog training and training classes is just teaching skills, which is really frustrating. I can train the skills, but I need relationship help.


Going through bronze engagement right now with my 2....Manna's basically done with it (more simple than I thought it would be for her, she picks it up easily but isn't as hyper about engagement as the other dogs...she just stares holes into you until you ask her for something lol) 

Vitae I think needs focus at gold and engagement at gold. she's good at level 2 and sometimes 3 in known areas but new areas I can't even get level 1 engagement, she just doesn't acclimatize for me... yet she is perfect for hubby and we have no clue why. we can't reach level 4 engagement because she's soo hyper that she can't focus and actually oh I dunno LEARN SOMETHING! 
Don't get me wrong, she learns life skills in seconds (sit in crate for meals, don't door dash, go into gated fence or up stairs after walks) but things like sit/stay/come/fetch/tug/hold/drop? NOPE she just runs around you vibrating with a toy in her mouth muffling her barking (a failed attempt at teach quiet, doesn't matter how big the toy is she can still bark around it and now prefers to grab a toy in her mouth before barking and if you know a sheepie bark, a toy doesn't even begin to muffle it :doh: )


----------



## mudypony

CptJack said:


> The longer I go and the more I think the more I realize I am held back or shot in the foot more by not trusting my dogs more than I am any other training challenge. I limit the heck out of them by anticipating disaster or failure. I have no idea how to stop this, besides continuing to not let myself micromanage and faking confidence, but jeeze it's hard. I think I need CBT for _this_. Or, well, to apply the principals to it.


This is so me! The area where I don't trust Duke is with new people and kids. He already has a tendency to be mouthy when greeting new people (which is so hard to work on because he is not mouthy with me or people he sees regularly), and, if people stare directly at him too long or bend down right in his face, he will leap right at their face. 

He's super aware of people's body language, and, even though he is an enthusiastic greeter, he likes his own personal space and sometimes gets stressed out if people he doesn't know enters his bubble too quickly or strangely. I just constantly worry about him snapping at someone, which is something he has never done, and I have no reason to believe he would. But he has growled at a few people, and it's just a constant thought that of what if he ever did bite someone. So, I am constantly telling people not to stare at him, get in his space, or hug him (Also, why do people think it's okay to hug dogs??? My dog hates it, and it's one of the things that will make him give a warning growl, on the rare occasion that I'm not there to stop it before it happens. And, it's normally family he sees semi-regularly that try to hug him constantly even with my firmly telling them not to.) I just can never relax when he meets new people, which I know makes the situation so much worse because my tenseness makes Duke tense.... ughhhh.


----------



## jade5280

Can someone give me some things to work on with Panzer? So far he knows sit, stay, come, down, spin, and we're working on paw. Also, I like that he will tug on things and want to keep and encourage his toy drive. Should I teach a 'drop it'? Any tips on stacking a puppy?


----------



## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Can someone give me some things to work on with Panzer? So far he knows sit, stay, come, down, spin, and we're working on paw. Also, I like that he will tug on things and want to keep and encourage his toy drive. Should I teach a 'drop it'? Any tips on stacking a puppy?


Here's all the stuff I can think of that I've done with Hazel:

Does he retrieve at all? I had really good results playing the two ball/toy game with Hazel. Throw a ball, she brings it back, I hold my second one until she drops the first, then I throw the second. Her retrieve at 4 months was better than Watson's ever was (his is trained with food). Kong balls worked well because if she forgot what she was doing I could start squeaking the one I had.

There are lots of fun drive building games you can do. When they're little it's easy to hold them in one arm, and then use the other to drag the toy across the ground in a figure 8 pattern. Let them get really excited and amped and then let them go. Another fun game is to throw a toy and then race them to it - you'll probably win the first time, but then let them win if they're really trying. Another is to play tug, then stop and wait for them to offer a sit, then tug again. 

I worked a lot on pivots (front feet on a bowl and pivoting around). Going around a cone (adding distance and speed). Go to a mat (also adding distance and speed). Back feet on a plank (for agility, and I used a plank to distinguish from the bowl I'm using for front feet). Standing on something that moves (wobble board, skateboard). Nose target (to hand and to other objects). Paw target to objects. Chin rest on palm of hand. Lots of baby heel work.

For recall, I like to throw a treat away from me and just as they're getting it, call them back to me for another treat. 

We did a lot of offered focus, just waiting for her to make eye contact and marking that. Then working up to holding a treat out to the side in one or both hands and waiting for eye contact.

It's Yer Choice games with food in a closed hand, then open hand, then on the floor, then rolling across the floor.


----------



## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> Here's all the stuff I can think of that I've done with Hazel:
> 
> Does he retrieve at all? I had really good results playing the two ball/toy game with Hazel. Throw a ball, she brings it back, I hold my second one until she drops the first, then I throw the second. Her retrieve at 4 months was better than Watson's ever was (his is trained with food). Kong balls worked well because if she forgot what she was doing I could start squeaking the one I had.
> 
> There are lots of fun drive building games you can do. When they're little it's easy to hold them in one arm, and then use the other to drag the toy across the ground in a figure 8 pattern. Let them get really excited and amped and then let them go. Another fun game is to throw a toy and then race them to it - you'll probably win the first time, but then let them win if they're really trying. Another is to play tug, then stop and wait for them to offer a sit, then tug again.
> 
> I worked a lot on pivots (front feet on a bowl and pivoting around). Going around a cone (adding distance and speed). Go to a mat (also adding distance and speed). Back feet on a plank (for agility, and I used a plank to distinguish from the bowl I'm using for front feet). Standing on something that moves (wobble board, skateboard). Nose target (to hand and to other objects). Paw target to objects. Chin rest on palm of hand. Lots of baby heel work.
> 
> For recall, I like to throw a treat away from me and just as they're getting it, call them back to me for another treat.
> 
> We did a lot of offered focus, just waiting for her to make eye contact and marking that. Then working up to holding a treat out to the side in one or both hands and waiting for eye contact.
> 
> It's Yer Choice games with food in a closed hand, then open hand, then on the floor, then rolling across the floor.


 Thanks! That's a great list. I forgot we have also done touch and look at me. How do you teach them to pivot?


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Thanks! That's a great list. I forgot we have also done touch and look at me. How do you teach them to pivot?


Once you've shaped putting front feet on a target of some sort, you can do it any number of ways. Some people purely shape it. Some people lure it. I kind of do halfway and stand with the dog in front position, and then move my body to encourage them to rotate to stay in front. Then I move into heel position and teach pivoting from there. Once you're in heel position, only ever move away from the dog. So if the dog is on your left, move counter clockwise around the target. Think pull, not push.

Here's a video of early stages with Hazel:





Here's Watson showing the training progression I used and the finished behavior: 





The early part of this video shows an alternate way to do it:


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## jade5280

Great videos thank you! How long did it take for Hazel to learn it?


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Great videos thank you! How long did it take for Hazel to learn it?


It took a couple sessions to get her stable on the target while I moved in and out and walked around. After that getting the pivot took maybe 2 more sessions. I started trying to shape it and got frustrated (I think that's what I was doing in that video), and went back to the way I did it with Watson. I haven't done much with pivoting in heel position yet, just in front.

I'd like to combine my way with the way Alexis does it in her video. I like the speed she is getting, and the precision I get by going slow and teaching the dog find front position. Once your body is in the picture you want to go slow so that the dog is thoughtful and finding position, instead of just flinging themselves around. But if they are pivoting on their own they can go as fast as they can manage.

ETA: The part that took the longest for Watson was moving the pivot from the bowl onto the ground.


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## TGKvr

Those look like fun things to learn! To break routine, we just started learning the difference between her "tug" and her "ball". So far so good!


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Thanks! That's a great list. I forgot we have also done touch and look at me. How do you teach them to pivot?


Another thing I forgot to mention is that "offered focus" isn't quite the same as "Look at me". There's no cue, it's just kind of an offered default behavior when she doesn't know what else to do. I haven't put eye contact on cue for either of my dogs. I know that different people feel differently about whether to put this on cue or not.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> Another thing I forgot to mention is that "offered focus" isn't quite the same as "Look at me". There's no cue, it's just kind of an offered default behavior when she doesn't know what else to do. I haven't put eye contact on cue for either of my dogs. I know that different people feel differently about whether to put this on cue or not.


Hmm how would you teach that? Just reward them when they are focusing on you?


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Hmm how would you teach that? Just reward them when they are focusing on you?


Yep, just reward offered eye contact. Usually while holding treats, so it's kind of It's Yer Choice in nature. Basically the same difference as teaching "leave it" with a cue, or doing It's Yer Choice and not putting a cue on and letting the dog offer it as default. I mark and reward offered eye contact in all sorts of situations, especially after she was distracted by a person or a dog walking past or something.

Here's the first session we did of offered focus:


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## jade5280

Cool! I need to get a video camera! All I have is my phone to record.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Cool! I need to get a video camera! All I have is my phone to record.


Yeah, my phone sucks because I never have enough memory available for anything longer than a minute. I usually use an old point and shoot camera for videos. It's kind of bulky but the bottom is flat so it's easy to set on a chair or something instead of needing a tripod like a phone would.


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## jade5280

I got him to put his front paws on a bowl after that I couldn't get him to move his back legs. He kept getting off when i tried. How do you do that?

Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> I got him to put his front paws on a bowl after that I couldn't get him to move his back legs. He kept getting off when i tried. How do you do that?
> 
> Sent from my SCH-S968C using Tapatalk


Spend a couple sessions getting him solid on the platform. You should be able to step away and step right in close without him getting off before you try pivoting. Once he has a solid understanding of feet on platform getting the back feet to move via luring or moving yourself around isn't that hard. Watch the video with Watson. I show how you should be able to go in and out from the platform without him getting off.


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## jade5280

Thanks I'll have to watch it again tomorrow! 

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## CptJack

I was just going to say that spending a little time making sure he understands putting and keeping his feet on the bowl before trying to get him pivoting. Once he's got the front feet on thing really solid it's easier. 

--
I don't usually bother with real heel, especially not the flashy kind, but Molly is so naturally 'staring up at my face and glued to my leg' I decided to try. I *know* it's wrong and it's bad, but I have like negative desire to make her stop bouncing up every couple of steps. I might get over that pretty soon but it's so stinking CUTE.


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## elrohwen

Hey, there are famous obedience people known for flashy heeling who encourage jumping up! I think the key is to ultimately get it on cue as a reward (high hand touch, jump to get a reward, etc). But energy going vertically in heeling is exactly what you want. 

Now we need video


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Hey, there are famous obedience people known for flashy heeling who encourage jumping up! I think the key is to ultimately get it on cue as a reward (high hand touch, jump to get a reward, etc). But energy going vertically in heeling is exactly what you want.
> 
> Now we need video


I spent a while today playing with it while Kylie worked for her lunch. I might actually record a real training session and have us near enough to the camera to be interesting and not so near that the dog is half out of frame half the time. WHO KNEW THIS WAS SO HARD?

I had no idea that there were people who encouraged jumping up. Well, okay then! I can probably get it on a cue. In fact I know I can get it on a cue. Hadn't thought to do it, at all though, so thanks!


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

I love the flashy, bouncy heel thing. I think it is adorable and Kairi does it. I vote keep the bounce! 


Sit pretty and HOLD stuffed animal.. SUCCESS!

Also.. a pretty much stranger to Kairi came into my house today. She barked for a second.. sniffed, wiggled her nub and then proceeded to follow me to the cookie jar. GOOD girl not losing your crap dog!


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## DogTheGreat

Kairi is too cute!!


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## Eenypup

If you want something on a voice cue would you start without a physical cue or try to fade it out? I started teaching Bennie to "target" her front paws on a book a long time ago, but can't get rid of the the cue of pointing that I started out with. I try to fade it but if I don't move she just stares at me waiting for direction, she's not one to try new things to figure out what I want and she obviously doesn't understand the voice command yet. I don't know if I start over and just try to capture the behavior without pointing, or spend a long time sloooowly fading the pointing out. 

She's so super reliant on my body language that it's proven quite difficult for me (as an admittedly not very great trainer) to fade out any verbal cues. For example, when I faded out the hand signal for her lay down she picked up on a different body language signal I was giving out, stepping backwards slightly to let her lay down with her paws in front of her, and now needs constant work to not be totally reliant on my stepping or even leaning back.


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## ireth0

Eenypup said:


> If you want something on a voice cue would you start without a physical cue or try to fade it out? I started teaching Bennie to "target" her front paws on a book a long time ago, but can't get rid of the the cue of pointing that I started out with. I try to fade it but if I don't move she just stares at me waiting for direction, she's not one to try new things to figure out what I want and she obviously doesn't understand the voice command yet. I don't know if I start over and just try to capture the behavior without pointing, or spend a long time sloooowly fading the pointing out.
> 
> She's so super reliant on my body language that it's proven quite difficult for me (as an admittedly not very great trainer) to fade out any verbal cues. For example, when I faded out the hand signal for her lay down she picked up on a different body language signal I was giving out, stepping backwards slightly to let her lay down with her paws in front of her, and now needs constant work to not be totally reliant on my stepping or even leaning back.


Yes, you would gradually fade it out. In general it should look like;

*verbal cue*
*wait a few seconds and see if they get it, if not then...*
*hand signal*

Rinse and repeat until they start anticipating the hand signal from the verbal cue. It's important to have the few seconds of waiting in between so they don't start to just lump the verbal in with the hand signal as one cue.

You can also start to make your hand signal less and less. So for example for pointing to the book, you can gradually (inch by inch over time) move your hand farther and farther from the book, and bring it in to your body so eventually it's just gone.

We did a lot of crash course getting things on verbal cues for copy dog, because you can't ask them to copy the behaviour until they know it on a verbal cue only.


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## CptJack

What Ireth said, but also - there are a lot of bodily cues that the dogs pick up on, that you may or may not ever realize you're doing at all. Try getting a dog to do something with your back turned or lying on the ground and success for most dogs drops. I don't consider it a major issues. IMO, it takes something like YEARS to get some things on a pure verbal command, and some things just never get there. Personally, it doesn't bug me, as long as I'm getting the behavior consistently when I need it and ask for it and i"m not having to outright lure everything. 

I have a deaf dog in the mix, though, who makes danged sure I keep 'talking with my hands' to some degree. 

OTOH, apparently Kylie doesn't sit OR beg without a tiny bit of a physical cue, which I only realized after I took video of a training session with Kylie, so make of that what you will.


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## ireth0

Oh yea, once they understand the behaviour from the word then you can start adding in different physical positions for yourself so they really get it in all situations if you want to. I'd consider that more of a proofing thing though, not a 'getting it on a verbal cue' thing.

I dunno about -years- though. For copy dog Luna had to be able to distinguish between multiple accessible objects (or no object) to do the behaviour I wanted just from verbal. I wasn't allowed to make any sort of motion or leaning or looking at the one I wanted.

That said, it's certainly not easy and does take some doing to get to.


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## CptJack

It's years for me because I don't care, and rarely bother trying to remove all physical cuing deliberately and I often have things at various stages. Also years because for me I'm talking removing ALL body language cues that the dog might pick up on, and I've seen a lot in videos of me doing things that constitute that that I don't think other people would notice or count - or would count as proofing. Ie: I twitch a finger upward, or shift my weight. 

Then, it might well take me 6 months or a year before I bother TRYING to complete removing my body language from the picture - does not take that long for me to stop luring, or even close, but when I say 'sit' and sort of lift my hand upward, they're still reading the body language and it's still not pure verbal (for me). Doesn't bother me. Also depends on behavior and dog. Molly actually picks up verbals fast, but she also takes in a lot of 'context' related to the cue, which includes some of my body language as well as where we are and what's happening around us. Kylie is similar. 

Very, very little of what I do anymore is totally context free, particularly re: body language, anyway. I say 'left', which asks her to basically come to a left hand position, is probably going to be accompanied by my legs together (or one behind the other to find the left leg) and one arm held down and other one bent. Meanwhile 'middle' (asking her to stand between my legs) is going to be accompanied by my legs being spread and both my hands folded at my waist/under my boobs. If I want to leg weave, OR work heeling, she's going to to go left, but along with the verbal which leg I step out on is going to change (right for weaves, left for heel work). If I told her left with my legs apart at go, there'd be some confusion. 

Then you add in a deaf dog in the house which keeps me 'talking with my hands' when it comes to commands, and well. It's a habit and the dogs learn to rely on it even more because it's almost always there to some subtle degree. It's just part of the picture.

Mostly, though, I just don't care. I use a ton more body language in agility than verbal cues, so it's more important that they read that (to me, for my dogs) than verbal cues.

*(ETA: That isn't to say nothing is on pure verbal, it's just not always the things you'd think. Ie: Spin and twirl are absolute pure verbal for Kylie and Molly, but sit isn't, necessarily, because I still do this subtle abbreviated hand signal that's Bug's. It isn't a lure or truncated lure, it's a different signal entirely, but it's still part of what they use.)


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## BKaymuttleycrew

CptJack said:


> It's years for me because I don't care, and rarely bother trying to remove all physical cuing deliberately and I often have things at various stages. It might well take me 6 months or a year before I bother completely removing my body language from the picture - does not take that long for me to stop luring, or even close, but when I say 'sit' and sort of lift my hand upward, they're still reading the body language and it's still not pure verbal (for me). Doesn't bother me. Also depends on behavior and dog. Molly actually picks up verbals fast, but she also takes in a lot of 'context' related to the cue, which includes some of my body language as well as where we are and what's happening around us. Kylie is similar.
> 
> Very, very little of what I do anymore is totally context free, particularly re: body language, anyway. I say 'left', which asks her to basically come to a left hand position, is probably going to be accompanied by my legs together (or one behind the other to find the left leg) and one arm held down and other one bent. Meanwhile 'middle' (asking her to stand between my legs) is going to be accompanied by my legs being spread and both my hands folded at my waist/under my boobs. If I want to leg weave, OR work heeling, she's going to to go left, but along with the verbal which leg I step out on is going to change (right for weaves, left for heel work). If I told her left with my legs apart at go, there'd be some confusion.
> 
> Then you add in a deaf dog in the house which keeps me 'talking with my hands' when it comes to commands, and well. It's a habit and the dogs learn to rely on it even more because it's almost always there to some subtle degree. It's just part of the picture.
> 
> Mostly, though, I just don't care. I use a ton more body language in agility than verbal cues, so it's more important that they read that (to me, for my dogs) than verbal cues.
> 
> *(ETA: That isn't to say nothing is on pure verbal, it's just not always the things you'd think. Ie: Spin and twirl are absolute pure verbal for Kylie and Molly, but sit isn't, necessarily, because I still do this subtle abbreviated hand signal that's Bug's. It isn't a lure or truncated lure, it's a different signal entirely, but it's still part of what they use.)


Yeah, this is pretty much how I feel too - I just don't care if I use a bit of physical cue or prompt to get a behavior, as long as it's dependable. There are a few things that I would say with (almost) absolute certainly that one or more of the dogs has on verbal only - but it isn't something that's important to me, so I don't spend a whole lot of time working on it - specifically. 

But with pretty much anything training-related, you train what's personally important, so there isn't any 'right' or 'wrong' way to do it. Just different. (Heck! I talk to people with my hands - I'd probably have to put myself in a straight jacket to stop waving them around at my dogs! lol)


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## CptJack

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> But with pretty much anything training-related, you train what's personally important, so there isn't any 'right' or 'wrong' way to do it. Just different. (Heck! I talk to people with my hands - I'd probably have to put myself in a straight jacket to stop waving them around at my dogs! lol)


All of this, exactly! Definitely not saying someone's wrong or even that I'm right, just babbling through my thought processes about it. 

I can tell Molly to go grab a ball and have her go find and grab a ball, or even get one out of my bag and leave the tug. Or Kylie, Molly, or Thud to go bother (other person who lives here) and have them go to that person, so it's not like they're bad at language exactly, but more I wave my hands around a lot, and even when I'm trying not to, there are some physical prompts in the picture that I only even notice when I'm watching video (I videoed some stuff last night with Kylie and was kind of amused by how much was there). I guess it makes sense for that to have become part of the picture for them. It's always been there and likely always will be there. Though I might try shoving my hands in my pockets at some point and see what happens.


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## BKaymuttleycrew

Yeah, Beckett can identify every single yard toy by name - which is at least six or seven? different toys. But that's because there's no way for me to 'prompt' him when even I don't know where a particular toy is (I just want him to go find it, because it's probably laying in the woods somewhere & I don't want to have to stumble around & find it myself!) But I'm fairly certain he can't 'down' without at least a minor physical prompt from me. Oh well. Playing toys is much more important than laying down, anyway! lol


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I had no idea that there were people who encouraged jumping up. Well, okay then! I can probably get it on a cue. In fact I know I can get it on a cue. Hadn't thought to do it, at all though, so thanks!


To get a really nice heel, you need the dog to be very energetic, but you also need him to go at the same speed as you. By making the energy go vertical you get a lot of bouncing and trotting and pretty heeling, while the dog is still going the same horizontal speed as a walking person. I know Bridget Carlsen encourages jumping up and she has some of the pranciest heeling. You just don't want them bunny hopping the whole way through a heeling pattern, so it's a balance to get that vertical energy but keep the dog on the ground until you ask for them to bounce up. Lots of people also use things like high hand touches and spins less to get prancy heeling and more as a reward to break the dog out and get lots of energy.



As far as the verbal cue thing goes, the only things I have purely on verbal cues are probably sit and down, just because those are the things that happen the most in daily life. I know Watson can sit and I think down no matter where I am facing or what position I'm in. I'm sure Hazel can't, but at least if I'm standing and facing her she's pretty good. I don't really strive for that though, it just kind of happens.

Eenypup, I think that part of the issue is that the book on the floor hasn't become a cue on its own. Have you done any pure shaping with Bennie? I would back up and shape it from the beginning, which shouldn't take long since she already has an understanding of the behavior. Once the object itself becomes a bit of a cue, then you can add the verbal in and I think she'll understand it a lot better.


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## CptJack

I do believe she's growing some self control. 






Ball is MUCH harder to leave than food for her.

I tried recording a whole training session with her. Did not work - we just take up too much space and move in and out of frame too much. (I mean I recorded it but it's not worth sharing - useful for me, though). Might try this evening with Kylie.


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## elrohwen

I think we may have had a break through last night. Not sure. Maybe it was a fluke.

It's common knowledge that I get frustrated with Watson. I just want him to engage and pay attention outside, but sometimes he is so far gone and I'm just hanging onto the end of the leash while he tries to get away. It's only lately that I've realized he's super frustrated by me too. I think he finds leashes in general to be extremely frustrating, and we're kind of in this tug of war where I want him to chill out and settle the heck down, and he desperately wants to hunt and sniff and check out all of the things and I'm holding him back.

So I decided to stop being frustrated. It's not enough to look neutral on the outside, I have to actually not care. So I've dropped all expectations for him outside, and I'm letting him come to me. Now when he's on a scent and pulling like crazy, I smile and tell him what a good sniffing dog he is, instead of quietly seething about how much of a PITA he is. One night we sat in the front yard for an hour, during which he whined and pulled towards the groundhog hole and completely ignored me. For an entire hour. And this was only in our front yard. We've done it a couple other times with better results (and there obviously wasn't fresh groundhog scent either). Last night was the first night I asked him to do any work, and he was so happy and excited to work with me! It was like 2 minutes of really horrible heeling (forged, jumping up, etc) but he was happy! He was so so happy to work and play with me and even half an hour later, when we were hanging out in the backyard, my husband mentioned how happy Watson seemed. 

I'm trying not to get my hopes up, I realize this isn't going to be a regular thing. But I hope that if I really open up to him, and try to listen to what he wants instead of thinking about what I want, maybe he will meet me in the middle. 

I also honestly don't think this would have worked before the puppy. She's allowed me to take a lot of pressure off of my relationship with Watson and just try to enjoy him for who he is. If he doesn't want to play training with me outside and just wants to sniff, whatever. He can sniff and then I can go get the puppy and play training with her. And he's still thrilled to train inside or in classes, so I've kind of come to terms with the fact that we may never do anything beyond that, and that's ok.


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## Eenypup

Most of her tricks and things I'm perfectly happy having on a hand signal, really. The only things she can reliably do with a verbal cue are sit, leave it, and come. Sits the only one of those that has a hand signal attached to it anyways. I just figured having her not reliant on me pointing directly at the target would make it easier to increase distance. I think elrohwen is right and I need to shape the behavior so seeing the book is a cue for her. Thanks!!


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## elrohwen

Eenypup said:


> Most of her tricks and things I'm perfectly happy having on a hand signal, really. The only things she can reliably do with a verbal cue are sit, leave it, and come. Sits the only one of those that has a hand signal attached to it anyways. I just figured having her not reliant on me pointing directly at the target would make it easier to increase distance. I think elrohwen is right and I need to shape the behavior so seeing the book is a cue for her. Thanks!!


What would happen if you put the book down and waited her out? Stare at the book (not at her) and count to 10 in your head. If she doesn't figure it out, pick up the book, then put it back down to make it more obvious. Or set a treat on the book. Neither of those is pure shaping, but it might get her jump started. Though I think if you tried to purely shape it she would also get the idea very quickly. 

When Hazel gets stuck I usually click any little eye or head movement towards the object, then place the reward at or on the object itself. Usually that's enough to unstick her (since she had to get up and get the treat) and then she's back to working.


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## Canyx

Congrats on your breakthrough elrohwen! Not meaning to sound like I've been mooching off of your challenges these past few months/years, but I want to say I've really learned a lot by following your training and relationship building with Watson. I think you've always been a phenomenal owner/trainer and it is so awesome to see you become even better. And I think it's realistic of you to say 'this isn't gonna be the norm or anything' but I think if you keep on the track that you're on it very well might bring about a new relationship for you and Watson!


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## BKaymuttleycrew

elrohwen said:


> I think we may have had a break through last night. Not sure. Maybe it was a fluke.
> 
> It's common knowledge that I get frustrated with Watson. I just want him to engage and pay attention outside, but sometimes he is so far gone and I'm just hanging onto the end of the leash while he tries to get away. It's only lately that I've realized he's super frustrated by me too. I think he finds leashes in general to be extremely frustrating, and we're kind of in this tug of war where I want him to chill out and settle the heck down, and he desperately wants to hunt and sniff and check out all of the things and I'm holding him back.
> 
> So I decided to stop being frustrated. It's not enough to look neutral on the outside, I have to actually not care. So I've dropped all expectations for him outside, and I'm letting him come to me. Now when he's on a scent and pulling like crazy, I smile and tell him what a good sniffing dog he is, instead of quietly seething about how much of a PITA he is. One night we sat in the front yard for an hour, during which he whined and pulled towards the groundhog hole and completely ignored me. For an entire hour. And this was only in our front yard. We've done it a couple other times with better results (and there obviously wasn't fresh groundhog scent either). Last night was the first night I asked him to do any work, and he was so happy and excited to work with me! It was like 2 minutes of really horrible heeling (forged, jumping up, etc) but he was happy! He was so so happy to work and play with me and even half an hour later, when we were hanging out in the backyard, my husband mentioned how happy Watson seemed.
> 
> I'm trying not to get my hopes up, I realize this isn't going to be a regular thing. But I hope that if I really open up to him, and try to listen to what he wants instead of thinking about what I want, maybe he will meet me in the middle.
> 
> I also honestly don't think this would have worked before the puppy. She's allowed me to take a lot of pressure off of my relationship with Watson and just try to enjoy him for who he is. If he doesn't want to play training with me outside and just wants to sniff, whatever. He can sniff and then I can go get the puppy and play training with her. And he's still thrilled to train inside or in classes, so I've kind of come to terms with the fact that we may never do anything beyond that, and that's ok.


You know, I think *this*, in a nutshell, is why I must always have multiple dogs. None of them is the 100%, perfect, idyllic image of what my dog *should* be (in my mind), but when I put them all together, I end up with the most perfect thing I could ever imagine.  Of course it helps that I have NO desire to ever compete or participate in formal sports/activities with them, but I always have just the right dog to call upon for whatever my day brings & my mood warrants. They all excel at different 'activities' whether that's heading over to the lake for some 'boat-launch leaping' (the country version of dock diving), off leash hiking, lunching at a dog-friendly restaurant, or just hanging out & getting 'puppy kisses' on the couch. lol


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## jade5280

Short video of sit, stand, paw, and down. Sorry about the vertical orientation, but that's the only way I could get my phone to stand!


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Congrats on your breakthrough elrohwen! Not meaning to sound like I've been mooching off of your challenges these past few months/years, but I want to say I've really learned a lot by following your training and relationship building with Watson. I think you've always been a phenomenal owner/trainer and it is so awesome to see you become even better. And I think it's realistic of you to say 'this isn't gonna be the norm or anything' but I think if you keep on the track that you're on it very well might bring about a new relationship for you and Watson!


Thank you so much! That means a lot! The most frustrating part is that when he's good, he's the best dog in the entire world. If he was always checked out and we generally had a poor relationship it probably wouldn't bother me so much. But it's so hard to watch my best buddy just flip out and not be able to pay any attention to me sometimes. If we could maintain the same relationship all the time he would be perfect. But nobody is perfect. 



BKaymuttleycrew said:


> You know, I think *this*, in a nutshell, is why I must always have multiple dogs. None of them is the 100%, perfect, idyllic image of what my dog *should* be (in my mind), but when I put them all together, I end up with the most perfect thing I could ever imagine.  Of course it helps that I have NO desire to ever compete or participate in formal sports/activities with them, but I always have just the right dog to call upon for whatever my day brings & my mood warrants. They all excel at different 'activities' whether that's heading over to the lake for some 'boat-launch leaping' (the country version of dock diving), off leash hiking, lunching at a dog-friendly restaurant, or just hanging out & getting 'puppy kisses' on the couch. lol


Yeah, I'm kind of learning that. We had two growing up and it did work out really well. I was worried about getting a puppy and taking time from him, but I think it's been a good thing in many ways.


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## CptJack

I honestly think having Molly saved Kylie's agility 'career'. I really don't think her enthusiasm would have come back and built without another dog to take the pressure off (and to make her a little jealous, even). It's not quite the same thing, I know, and goodness knows there are another 3 dogs in the house, but even agility specifically: I don't think Kylie being the only dog doing agility would work. Molly might do better if I was working exclusively with her (maybe - big maybe), and it would certainly be less expensive and easier, but I don't think Kylie being the only dog I had to do agility/dog sports with would have worked. My drive for it's just a lot higher than hers is, and I think I would have burned her out forever without another dog to go play that game with.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I honestly think having Molly saved Kylie's agility 'career'. I really don't think her enthusiasm would have come back and built without another dog to take the pressure off (and to make her a little jealous, even). It's not quite the same thing, I know, and goodness knows there are another 3 dogs in the house, but even agility specifically: I don't think Kylie being the only dog doing agility would work. Molly might do better if I was working exclusively with her (maybe - big maybe), and it would certainly be less expensive and easier, but I don't think Kylie being the only dog I had to do agility/dog sports with would have worked. My drive for it's just a lot higher than hers is, and I think I would have burned her out forever without another dog to go play that game with.


Yeah, Watson is similar. He likes training and he likes doing stuff, but as soon as there is any pressure he falls apart and doesn't want to participate any more. I think it will help to take all of the pressure off of him. I'm not sure yet about Hazel - she is soft in the sense that she cares if I'm upset with her usually, but so far doesn't seem soft in a training sense. Watson is the opposite and doesn't care if I yell and scream at him, but he's so soft in training and needs to be right and completely confident or he's not doing anything.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Oh my gosh the Panzer cuteness!

That's really good for both you and Watson elrohwen! Sometimes we just have to remember to relax, just treat everything like a game and release all expectations. Easier said than done sometimes.. but.. yeah. I also get antsy wanting another dog to take some pressure off Kairi (thank goodness she LIKES training but I want to try ALL THE THINGS). I think I would rather do more casual agility with 2 different dogs than be crazy with one. At least getting Ember gave her a little break but I still want my "own" puppy to train.

CptJack - Getting a Border Collie to LEAVE its favorite toys? HUGE accomplishment!

ALSO BRAG. Squirrel was running on the wire above my fence which drives Kairi absolutely bonkers. I called her.. she turned around.. and looked at me. I called again.. she came hesitantly running. I grabbed her collar, gave her a mouth full of cookies (and she nearly took my hand off she was so out of her mind) and released her to attempt to jump our 6 foot fence some more. I know I had to call twice which isn't ideal.. but holycrapola guys. I can't believe I got that dog to even hear me say a word in the midst of chasing a squirrel.


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## Laurelin

Just kind of a training vent. Not sure an appropriate thread but we've got this new 'trainer' in town that is... controversial? and he keeps being at events right across from us or worse coming to our events and then either we end up watching him shock his dogs constantly or he gets pissy that we don't allow shock collars at events. (No you can't have them at our fun run day while the official AKC event is going on at the same place) 

It's part of a big chain. Gives you an idea... Slick advertising campaign. Just so frustrating watching. His dogs got in a fight and one is really iffy with kids and was swarmed. He did at least muzzle them. 

This is the third event in a row where we've been next to them. Anyways, just a vent.

I'm trying to get back into training gear. I've been really happy with Hank lately but I've been slacking.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Just kind of a training vent. Not sure an appropriate thread but we've got this new 'trainer' in town that is... controversial? and he keeps being at events right across from us or worse coming to our events and then either we end up watching him shock his dogs constantly or he gets pissy that we don't allow shock collars at events. (No you can't have them at our fun run day while the official AKC event is going on at the same place)
> 
> It's part of a big chain. Gives you an idea... Slick advertising campaign. Just so frustrating watching. His dogs got in a fight and one is really iffy with kids and was swarmed. He did at least muzzle them.
> 
> This is the third event in a row where we've been next to them. Anyways, just a vent.
> 
> I'm trying to get back into training gear. I've been really happy with Hank lately but I've been slacking.


If it's the company I'm thinking it is, they have had some controversial arrests lately for abuse. Denise Fenzi posted some articles I think. I wonder how the parent company will respond to it and if they will back the trainers or change their training system a bit.

That's too bad that you guys have to always be near him at events.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> If it's the company I'm thinking it is, they have had some controversial arrests lately for abuse. Denise Fenzi posted some articles I think. I wonder how the parent company will respond to it and if they will back the trainers or change their training system a bit.
> 
> That's too bad that you guys have to always be near him at events.


It probably is. I know a LARGE group complained to the event coordinators and a lot of people are not going to go to events where they're present. Which I get but the JQP really seem to like them since the dogs can 'be off leash'. I've watched parts of demos and it's basically strap shock collars on and shock everything. So I'd hate for all the good trainers to stop going and doing public events and showcasing other methods. I'm not 100% positive and I am not stressed about people training differently if they are informed but there is a line...

Was it the head guy that was charged with abuse or some of the schools? Gonna have to go look for the Fenzi articles.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> It probably is. I know a LARGE group complained to the event coordinators and a lot of people are not going to go to events where they're present. Which I get but the JQP really seem to like them since the dogs can 'be off leash'. I've watched parts of demos and it's basically strap shock collars on and shock everything. So I'd hate for all the good trainers to stop going and doing public events and showcasing other methods. I'm not 100% positive and I am not stressed about people training differently if they are informed but there is a line...
> 
> Was it the head guy that was charged with abuse or some of the schools? Gonna have to go look for the Fenzi articles.


Just some of the schools or franchises or whatever they call them. 

I use a shock collar, but those people scare me. It's an easy tool to abuse for people who don't care how the dog is feeling.


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## Laurelin

They basically from what I've seen both in demos and now doing some googling (I had heard the name and heard people complain in the past) shock everything. Collar on all the time and remote in hand all the time. Every dog and every issue it seems needs a shock collar. Luckily I was so busy this time I managed to avoid a lot but my nosework and barn hunt trainers were at the booth right next to his demo. We were kinda diagonal and not in the main tent thankfully.

Heh, I'm finding old threads here and on the other board basically saying the same thing.


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## Eenypup

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v492/wagawa/ECE986EB-3DC9-4B5C-87B1-2288B2178140_zpstk1dupxw.mp4

Anyone care to help me troubleshoot this? I even tried to start the behavior over with a new cue word but just the cue of motioning towards the toy means throw your head back & jump up with a toy in your mouth for a second, lol. So that's where we've been at for a while. I'd love for her to be able to hold the toy in her mouth so I can build upon that for cooler tricks like putting her toys away, retrieving objects, etc.


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## elrohwen

Eenypup said:


> http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v492/wagawa/ECE986EB-3DC9-4B5C-87B1-2288B2178140_zpstk1dupxw.mp4
> 
> Anyone care to help me troubleshoot this? I even tried to start the behavior over with a new cue word but just the cue of motioning towards the toy means throw your head back & jump up with a toy in your mouth for a second, lol. So that's where we've been at for a while. I'd love for her to be able to hold the toy in her mouth so I can build upon that for cooler tricks like putting her toys away, retrieving objects, etc.


I would start with the toy in your hand rather than putting it on the ground. When she's holding it for a couple seconds while you also hold it you can start letting go for a second.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I would start with the toy in your hand rather than putting it on the ground. When she's holding it for a couple seconds while you also hold it you can start letting go for a second.


That. Also start marking while it's in her mouth - this will take timing - but mark while she has it/has taken it and then gradually up the ante/increase duration.


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## Eenypup

Yeah I've tried those things but clearly not for long enough. Gotta be more patient I suppose.


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## elrohwen

You could try teaching a chin rest, where she rests her chin on your palm. Then add in holding the toy and doing the chin rest. 

Also, I've never finished this trick, and I know a pro trainer who took 6 months to get it solid on her husky, so it's not the easiest thing to teach some dogs.


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## CrimsonAccent

So Cupcake continues to be a good girl basically. I may just run through her skills and make a list of what we know and how well we know it. From there I think I can get a better idea of what to work on (aside from a stronger recall, always). Probably mostly fun stuff. She has fairly good manners and skills for our household (jumping on people could always be better but not a huge deal).

Donut is in his full blown teenage jerk stage. LLW is a priority along with confidence building. Along with recall.

We got to visit the (new to us) local dog park two times last week and it was a blast. There is a pond right outside the park that is also by this trail/park. It's technically not fenced in but is far from any roads. Other dog owners were using the pond as an off leash area, so we decided to take a bit of a leap of faith as Cupcake and Donut naturally orbit.

For the most part--success. We were aiming to stay at the pond/the immediate vicinity. One time Cupcake decided to chase a rabbit but it darted away and she readily came back (definitely more movement-chase than a tracker haha). A few times they both were out of sight due to the curviness/brush but really they stayed within line of sight. It's nice to know they can be semi-trusted.

So this is obviously some motivation to acquire true off leash privileges. It wouldn't be a bad area to go on a longer walk/hike once I trust them more. I admit I was initially nervous, but they proved that even if they get distracted/want to sniff/chase each other, they ultimately want to stay near us. 

Don't quite have true water dogs (yet). Donut jumped into the pond once to our surprise. It was while a few labs were there. Monkey see, monkey do? His first time in water over his head and he managed to swim back on his own. Cupcake has waded in up to her knees (?)/just under chest level. I figure more exposure/motivation will get them in eventually.

The barking is quieting down in general to normal levels of "hey, wake up and feed us" or "hey, I really, really gotta go hurry up" demand barking. Donut does continue to "hey, play with me mooooore" at midnight which isn't great but progress I guess.


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## elrohwen

We had a private lesson with a new agility trainer last night. After working with me and Watson she said "Well, his recall is actually pretty good. He just needs to learn to stay with you after the recall. We can fix this." That's been my assessment all along, but I've had to go through so many trainers to get this response. I have a lot more hope than I've had in a long time. Finally, a trainer who didn't say "Wow, your foundations are completely wrong" or "He's so low drive that it's never going to work unless you use pure compulsion".

It was so so nice to hear that we had a lot of great stuff to work with and that she was confident she could fix the remaining issues. Basically a trainer who was like "Yeah, he's a dog, doing what dogs do. We can work with that." Instead of "Oh my gosh you've ruined his foundations and he's never going to be able to do this and you should just start over with a new puppy and try not to ruin her"

Well, until he completely embarrassed me by pulling the leash out of my hands and chasing a cat through the entire barn, up into the hayloft. Thanks, jerk. At least the cat didn't run outside.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> We had a private lesson with a new agility trainer last night. After working with me and Watson she said "Well, his recall is actually pretty good. He just needs to learn to stay with you after the recall. We can fix this." That's been my assessment all along, but I've had to go through so many trainers to get this response. I have a lot more hope than I've had in a long time. Finally, a trainer who didn't say "Wow, your foundations are completely wrong" or "He's so low drive that it's never going to work unless you use pure compulsion".
> 
> It was so so nice to hear that we had a lot of great stuff to work with and that she was confident she could fix the remaining issues. Basically a trainer who was like "Yeah, he's a dog, doing what dogs do. We can work with that."
> 
> Well, until he completely embarrassed me by pulling the leash out of my hands and chasing a cat through the entire barn, up into the hayloft. Thanks, jerk. At least the cat didn't run outside.


We'll have agility on the same night! With crazy dogs 

Seriously, I am so glad you found a trainer who was seeing what you see and that you feel good about. So, so glad. It's only taken, what, 3 years to go there - or nearly so? She sounds like a great lady and it sounds like a good night, even with the cat silliness.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> We'll have agility on the same night! With crazy dogs
> 
> Seriously, I am so glad you found a trainer who was seeing what you see and that you feel good about. So, so glad. It's only taken, what, 3 years to go there - or nearly so? She sounds like a great lady and it sounds like a good night, even with the cat silliness.


I know! I've worked with other trainers I really like and respect, and who haven't said things to demoralize me, but then they weren't able to fix us either. And some others claimed they could help, but completely demoralized me in the process (and we never got anywhere anyway). I hope this time is different and we see some real progress. She's also super cheap, because she doesn't have to pay ring rental during our lesson like everybody else I've tried.

We can have a post Tuesday-night-agility run down! Her 6pm Tuesday class didn't fill this term, so we can meet every week (if necessary) for at least a couple months. I really really liked the other lady from a couple weeks ago (though she never met Watson), but right now stuff with her is very sporadic and if we only have a lesson once every month we're not going to advance very far. 

Both trainers have fairly different approaches, so I think I'll keep working with both for now. The one last night was old school AKC obedience, turned agility. So she's not opposed to prongs and ecollars sometimes, and she's a bit more "sometimes the dog just has to to put on his big boy pants and do it". And I think Watson needs a little of that (I told her he doesn't own any big boy pants LOL). She also focused Hazel's stuff much more on trying equipment (tunnel, chute, wobbly things) which was kind of nice since we don't have any of that at home and she won't be in a class for a while. If she's going to be weird about equipment stuff I want to know now so I can work on it, not wait until she's over a year old. The other instructor was much more into showing us good toy play, shaping 2o2o, shaping going around a jump standard. Kind of the modern agility foundations stuff. So I think they both have something to offer and we got very different things from each class. 

I'm probably a crazy person though. Before this chance for private lessons came up I had already signed up for:
Monday - Hazel basic obedience
Wednesday - Hazel breed handling, followed by Watson Rally

I'm sure the dogs can do it, it's 3 classes a week for Hazel but she enjoys this stuff and handling hardly counts. And basic obedience is mostly sitting around practicing being polite. But I'm going to be exhausted. I was ready to drop after the full hour yesterday dealing with both dogs. I think Watson took advantage of my tiredness to make his break for the cat. Haha


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I know! I've worked with other trainers I really like and respect, and who haven't said things to demoralize me, but then they weren't able to fix us either. And some others claimed they could help, but completely demoralized me in the process (and we never got anywhere anyway). I hope this time is different and we see some real progress. She's also super cheap, because she doesn't have to pay ring rental during our lesson like everybody else I've tried.
> 
> We can have a post Tuesday-night-agility run down! Her 6pm Tuesday class didn't fill this term, so we can meet every week (if necessary) for at least a couple months. I really really liked the other lady from a couple weeks ago (though she never met Watson), but right now stuff with her is very sporadic and if we only have a lesson once every month we're not going to advance very far.
> 
> Both trainers have fairly different approaches, so I think I'll keep working with both for now. The one last night was old school AKC obedience, turned agility. So she's not opposed to prongs and ecollars sometimes, and she's a bit more "sometimes the dog just has to to put on his big boy pants and do it". And I think Watson needs a little of that (I told her he doesn't own any big boy pants LOL). She also focused Hazel's stuff much more on trying equipment (tunnel, chute, wobbly things) which was kind of nice since we don't have any of that at home and she won't be in a class for a while. If she's going to be weird about equipment stuff I want to know now so I can work on it, not wait until she's over a year old. The other instructor was much more into showing us good toy play, shaping 2o2o, shaping going around a jump standard. Kind of the modern agility foundations stuff. So I think they both have something to offer and we got very different things from each class.
> 
> I'm probably a crazy person though. Before this chance for private lessons came up I had already signed up for:
> Monday - Hazel basic obedience
> Wednesday - Hazel breed handling, followed by Watson Rally
> 
> I'm sure the dogs can do it, it's 3 classes a week for Hazel but she enjoys this stuff and handling hardly counts. And basic obedience is mostly sitting around practicing being polite. But I'm going to be exhausted. I was ready to drop after the full hour yesterday dealing with both dogs. I think Watson took advantage of my tiredness to make his break for the cat. Haha


We should definitely do a run down. 

Right now my schedule is... all agility? All the time? But I'm going to be pretty wiped, too. 

I've got three a week right now, too, but each dog only has 2 (ie: Molly has class, Kylie has a lesson, then they both have practice). The week we have the show 'n go they'll both get three, since all of that should still happen, but weekend of trials Kylie's lesson won't and Molly won't *run* at trial, just go hang out and spectate. 

It's actually going to exhaust me. It *is* exhausting me, already but it's going to be so, so good for Molly.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> We should definitely do a run down.
> 
> Right now my schedule is... all agility? All the time? But I'm going to be pretty wiped, too.
> 
> I've got three a week right now, too, but each dog only has 2 (ie: Molly has class, Kylie has a lesson, then they both have practice). The week we have the show 'n go they'll both get three, since all of that should still happen, but weekend of trials Kylie's lesson won't and Molly won't *run* at trial, just go hang out and spectate.
> 
> It's actually going to exhaust me. It *is* exhausting me, already but it's going to be so, so good for Molly.


Yeah, having to trial/show on top of everything is the most exhausting for me. Hazel is one month away from being legal to enter AKC conformation shows (though I haven't worked with her at all) so there is going to be some pressure soon to start showing her. I've tentatively agreed to some shows around Thanksgiving. Still not sure at all what I will do with Watson for those. Maybe enter him in the breed, or maybe in Rally Novice again just for something to do. Or maybe just her so I don't stress myself out. I find shows exhausting and stressful.

Definitely update on Molly's progress! You guys seem to figure it out more and more every day and I'm sure in a year she's going to blow your expectations out of the water.


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## CrimsonAccent

Elrohwen: I'm so glad that you found a trainer that really works for you! It seems like you've been struggling with that for a while. Good luck with showing, I don't envy you.

CptJacK: Just yay Molly all around! Don't wipe yourself out.

-----
So I semi-lied. I didn't really do a run through of all of Cupcake's tricks but we did work tonight.

Donut and I went around the complex. I tried using dinner+treats but may just have to do treats when outside because he found sniffing more rewarding. Seemed like there was less tugging though so yay. 

Got back into the apartment. Had a possible "duh" moment of ways to work on LLW indoors minus the leash. C/T for being by my side, C/T for following me, etc. Fairly lure heavy right now but I figure I can't go wrong with reinforcing being by my side. Plus we got to do laps around the house. Donut seemed into it more than Cupcake, but Cupcake might've just not felt like exerting the effort as Donut was glued to my side.

Cupcake is getting "crawl" and "sit pretty" pretty well. Just needs to build the muscle/balance for the latter.

Donut...is really good at sit and sometimes down lol.


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## DogtorWho15

Id like to join! I have a 6 month old. I have many goals for her but right now I am focusing most on fixing her biting problem. Everyone that has met her has commented on how hyperactive, difficult or stubborn she is. One person said it was the hardest case of a puppy he had seen. My family thinks this too...... And I am beginning to agree  This doesnt change anything though cause she has hope lol. Ive been thinking about enrolling her in classes for puppies to learn obedience and basics. Id like to know how much or if this benefit you guys and your dogs?? I want to be the best owner! I really really want to get her a buddy, cause she is one of those dogs that would benefit so much from having a same species friend, but I dont think I am able to handle another dog right now, especially not until I can get this one under control.


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## CrimsonAccent

1. Yes, yes yes do a training class if possible. The dogs end up learning, and it's fun for you  My reasons for classes are selfish--they motivate to actually train and I really enjoy taking them. I would make sure the classes use positive methods (generally clicker training) especially for the basics. Generally avoid mentions of "alpha rolling", "dominance" or "pack leader". There is a time and place for aversives, but that is something not used for first choice generally (or something I would do without in person help depending on what it was).

2. Get a second dog for you, not for your dog. Is there are a particular reason you think a second dog would benefit her?

What kind of dog is she? We accept pictures as payment


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## DogtorWho15

Ok thanks! I am very excited to join some classes with her! I am gonna try to get her in some in november, september is too busy. She responds very nicely to clicker training so even if the class doesnt use it, I will bring mine XD

I have been keeping my eyes out for dogs, but it isnt gonna happen until sometime next year. She just REALLY loves other dogs, I take her to my grandmas house (she has 3 dogs) and she adores them! Especially her big ol boxer/rhodesian ridgeback mix Bronx. Every dog she sees she wants to play with, including our 9 year old dogs that never want to play XD My aunt has 2 labs she she hangs with as well. I just enjoy watching her be so happy with other dogs, when I get older I plan to have lots ^_^

She is a lab/aussie mix. Haha I will try and get some pics later this afternoon


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## CptJack

Someone stop me from chickening out of taking Molly to agility practice tonight. I'll have my husband, since there will also be pizza it's odd that there will be more 'down' time than usual. She needs the exposure more than I need to take the easy out. 

And while we're at it, stop me from chickening out of taking her with us to the trial this weekend.


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## FaithFurMom09

Im working on basic commands with Charlie. We worked on " Sit", "Wait" and "Come" a bit the other night. The stinker did it with food and then as soon as i tried without, she was like " what do you want me to do?" Shes been barking a bit more, so i may add " Speak" but im not too worried. it took Hope a long time to learn "Speak". I did also try " Down" ( for lay down) but she didnt really get it and thats ok.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack said:


> Someone stop me from chickening out of taking Molly to agility practice tonight. I'll have my husband, since there will also be pizza it's odd that there will be more 'down' time than usual. She needs the exposure more than I need to take the easy out.
> 
> And while we're at it, stop me from chickening out of taking her with us to the trial this weekend.


You must do it! I understand the anxieties, but you will be alright and Molly will calm down even if she does react. It may not even be as bad as you think it will be!

Aaannd I can barely talk because I've been putting off entering Kairi's first agility trial. I'm terrified.. but I just printed out the paper. There is still an entire month and I'm getting anxious just looking at the entry form. Thank goodness this dog doesn't act different with my anxieties.


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## CptJack

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> You must do it! I understand the anxieties, but you will be alright and Molly will calm down even if she does react. It may not even be as bad as you think it will be!
> 
> Aaannd I can barely talk because I've been putting off entering Kairi's first agility trial. I'm terrified.. but I just printed out the paper. There is still an entire month and I'm getting anxious just looking at the entry form. Thank goodness this dog doesn't act different with my anxieties.


I put off Kylie's first trial for 6 months because it scared me to death. My new year's resolution this year was 'just do one trial, darn it'. Then I did and wondered what I was so worried about. That's about how I expect you to come out of it. 

So, you know, DO IT.

And so will I. (It is NEVER as bad as I think it will be. I do not know what my damage is, there.)


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## CptJack

I didn't chicken out. 

I have a handful of better pictures of her doing agility I'll post in her thread, but y'all.










I could cry. *LOOK* at what's in the background.

Class tomorrow. Maybe we can learn a little more agility to put with it


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## elrohwen

Yay Molly!


I'm so not looking forward to our private agility class tonight. It's going to be one of the hottest days of the entire summer (~95) and it's in an indoor horse arena with little air flow. Last week was miserable and it was probably 5 degrees cooler. Blah.


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## elrohwen

Oh, speaking of reactive dogs, I was so proud of Watson this weekend. We went for a couple walks on the rail trail (which we haven't done much lately due to his injury and the hot weather) and he was so so good. He looked at other dogs, and looked back at me on his own! Usually I have to give a "leave it" cue once he starts staring, but he remained calm and made the decision to look back on his own. I think it helped that there were a million people out there, and with bikes and walkers going past he can't zero in on a dog as easily. Still, I was really pleased. Just a couple weeks ago he was pretty reactive to a couple dogs, but they were "scary" looking breeds, and were giving him the hard stare, so I can't blame him too much for that.


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## FaithFurMom09

Small progress for Charlie!!

We worked on Sit, Wait, Come and shes mastered those. Then i tried lay down and she still isnt getting it so we will work on that later. I tried Paw today and thanks to a couple youtube videos i watched, i tried something new and she got it!!! 

I watched this video where you reward for even getting close to paw, not just when she actually gives you her paw. So if she paws at the floor towards me hand, reward. Paws at my hand for the treat, reward. Paw in my hand- double reward! We did that a few times and she caught on and I just said " Charlie Sit, Charlie Paw" and she did it.


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## elrohwen

FaithFurMom09 said:


> Small progress for Charlie!!
> 
> We worked on Sit, Wait, Come and shes mastered those. Then i tried lay down and she still isnt getting it so we will work on that later. I tried Paw today and thanks to a couple youtube videos i watched, i tried something new and she got it!!!
> 
> I watched this video where you reward for even getting close to paw, not just when she actually gives you her paw. So if she paws at the floor towards me hand, reward. Paws at my hand for the treat, reward. Paw in my hand- double reward! We did that a few times and she caught on and I just said " Charlie Sit, Charlie Paw" and she did it.


That's awesome! Splitting behaviors down into tiny pieces and rewarding those is always better than lumping and trying to get the whole behavior on the first shot. Glad she figured it out!


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## FaithFurMom09

We worked on lay down again and speak. This dog is silly and so are the rest. I work with her and they all do the trick im asking her to do. I say " Charlie Paw" and Faith and Hope are trying to give me their paws. Silly pups! 

I tried Lay Down. Normally id have her sit, then lower the treat to where she has to lay down to get it but it wasnt working because shed lower her front and leave her butt in the air... lol. So i lowered her butt and treated and then after a few times of just general laying i treated. She semi got it but it will need to be worked on more. I also tried Speak. With the rest they barked and I said " good Speak". and they caught on. Hope like i said look longer and I had to hold food over her ( cheese, meat, etc not a normal treat) before shed do it. I tried it with Charlie...nope. Even me barking. Nope. However the other 4 decided they wanted to speak at the same time and charlie just looks like " what in the world?!" ! lol. 

We will work on it later today again. 

Id like 
Sit, Wait/Stay, lay down, paw, speak...possibly drop it ( only Faith knows it). Faith is the only one that knows " Bring it back/here/your baby/ball" too. Clearly i have lacked in the training department.


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## elrohwen

For down, I click/mark when the elbows are down even if the butt is still in the air. Generally once you mark the behavior and go to treat it, the butt goes down on its own. Think of splitting it into smaller steps for her. If she's already offering half of the down position, reward that.


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## elrohwen

Somehow in the last couple of weeks, Watson's dog reactivity on walks has completely disappeared. He will either look at the dog and look to me for a treat (instead of me telling him to "leave it") or he will just sniff the ground and keep walking as if he didn't even see the other dog.

It's probably because there are so many people out on the rail trail right now, which means he sees more dogs, and it means there are often bikers or other walkers that get in between him and the dog to break his line of sight. But still, it's awesome! I'm so proud of him. We haven't run into any dogs who are super triggers lately (like the probably reactive rottie whose owner makes her sit while we pass - she's quiet, but giving a hard stare and Watson does not like her), but plenty were pulling towards him and staring at him and he really didn't care.

The worst was this one family with a chocolate lab. She was on a flexi, already extended about 10-15 feet, and starts physically dragging her owner towards us (and he was a big guy). He says "It's ok! She's really friendly!" And I responded "Yeah, but he doesn't want to meet" as I'm trying to stuff meatballs in Watson's face. The guy just says "Oh, ok" and moves his dog along, like he never considered that I didn't want my dog to meet his. The best part is that while Watson was too unnerved to take treats while this was happening, he didn't bark or react at all either. He just watched the dog, then moved on. Such a good boy!

This will probably all go to hell again when the rail trail clears out and we only see a couple dogs all week and he gets reactive again, but I'll enjoy it while I can.


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## kadylady

Skye and I met up with a couple friends yesterday for some disc practice. We went to a local park and they were having soccer games so the park was really busy. We found a little section to work in near the overflow parking area and constantly had people coming through our space to and from their cars and I really didn't expect to be able to get much done with Skye. She was AMAZING!! She had a couple moments of wanting to wander and explore at the beginning where I just went and got her, brought her back and downed her for a minute and she quickly refocused and actually played really well. Also, wonderful thing about dog loving to tug, when she started to get distracted and lose interest, we tugged on the disc and it totally refocused her and she forgot all about the distractions and was back in the game! I was so impressed and proud of her! So....I think we are going to enter her first disc event in 2 weeks! Just 3 days shy of her 1st birthday! We are still just doing rollers. Excited and nervous but more excited. I have a feeling this dog will constantly be surprising me


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Skye and I met up with a couple friends yesterday for some disc practice. We went to a local park and they were having soccer games so the park was really busy. We found a little section to work in near the overflow parking area and constantly had people coming through our space to and from their cars and I really didn't expect to be able to get much done with Skye. She was AMAZING!! She had a couple moments of wanting to wander and explore at the beginning where I just went and got her, brought her back and downed her for a minute and she quickly refocused and actually played really well. Also, wonderful thing about dog loving to tug, when she started to get distracted and lose interest, we tugged on the disc and it totally refocused her and she forgot all about the distractions and was back in the game! I was so impressed and proud of her! So....I think we are going to enter her first disc event in 2 weeks! Just 3 days shy of her 1st birthday! We are still just doing rollers. Excited and nervous but more excited. I have a feeling this dog will constantly be surprising me


Woohoo! Go Skye!


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## elrohwen

Hazel starts "Better than Basic" obedience class tonight. Her first class in quite a while due to scheduling at the place we train. I feel like I should have worked on stays and things more ... oh well! I always love starting a new session of classes and seeing all the new dogs. Watson's classes are usually the same couple of dogs over and over again but Hazel's will have a new crew.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I always love starting a new session of classes and seeing all the new dogs. Watson's classes are usually the same couple of dogs over and over again but Hazel's will have a new crew.


This is one of my favourite things as well!


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> This is one of my favourite things as well!


Yes! I think there will be one or two puppies from our puppy and Basic classes. I'm sure there will be a lot of new faces too.

When do you start Rally?


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Yes! I think there will be one or two puppies from our puppy and Basic classes. I'm sure there will be a lot of new faces too.
> 
> When do you start Rally?


A week from today. I know the instructor and her dog, (black Belgian shepherd) but since the last time we were there (it's sort of run in conjunction with the nosework group we went to) I don't know how the rally group may have changed. Who is gone, who is still there, if there is anyone new, etc.


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## elrohwen

I was gone for almost a year with work, and when I started up again with Watson there were *still* 3 dogs I recognized. Haha. There were some youngsters too who had moved up from the basic classes, so it was nice to see new faces. But most people are like me and just repeat the same "advanced" classes for fun. At a high enough level they don't really offer more advanced classes, you just take whatever "fun obedience" class is offered and kind of work at your pace on whatever the exercise is.


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## ireth0

And as if on cue our rally prep pack arrived today from Mrs Boats!


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## MrsBoats

Oh cool!!! I'm glad it found you okay.  Enjoy and go kick some rally butt.


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## elrohwen

I love the Rally prep pack! That reminds me that I should bring it with me to class on Wednesday, at least to show it off 

I found it invaluable at trials.


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## ireth0

For those interested;


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## FaithFurMom09

Charlie can now: sit, lay down, paw, wait and come. Speak is still a no go. We worked on "Spin" tonight. You know when a dog chases their tail? Yeah i make her spin 1 rotation. She got it after a few tries.


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## elrohwen

Hazel is the best puppy of all time. Yesterday's class was super chaotic, with 5 big lab and bully mixes (all about 1-2 years old) just flailing and barking and screaming, but she was calm and composed and did everything perfectly. The first thing we did was get in a circle and work on stays. So dogs in a sit or down, stand at the end of your leash (or as far as you can get) with owners towards the middle of the circle. The dogs on both sides of her broke repeatedly and ran all over (confined by leashes at least) and she just glanced at them and held her stay while I was 5ft away. We pretty much never work on stays and I haven't done any proofing whatsoever. 

The only thing she struggled with was refocusing on me after they waived a toy on a line around. The goal was for the dogs to look back at you without prompting and she was the only dog who did it, but it took her more time than I expected. She just loves toys, and I want her to love toys, so I'm ok with that. Something we can work on. 

One of the trainers has been with me through most of Watson's classes and was calling me an over achiever last night. I feel like she's proud of me (and probably happy for me) to have a dog who is so good after Watson the wild child. And clearly I've come a long way as a trainer since those early classes with him.

Then there is the other assistant trainer who we've basically never had a class with, and she keeps being impressed by the littlest things that I've already trained Hazel to do outside of class (like nose touches). I'm pretty sure she thinks I've never done any of this before or she wouldn't be so amazed. lol


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## elrohwen

Agility class update for CptJack!

We had our second private lesson last night and made a lot of progress with Watson. We started with some basic recalls and he zoomed off. She had me walk up and get him, and more or less drag him back to the spot by his collar. Make him uncomfortable so he doesn't see the benefit in running off, but tell him he's a good dog and don't hurt him or anything. I did that 3 times I think, and he never blew me off again. Yay! We did some recalls, and we also did some following/loose heeling off leash with front crosses and things. The first time he was still kind of sniffy and I had to do a lot of direction changes to keep him with me. But the second time he was much more engaged and interested. At the end of our time people came in for the next class and she had us do a recall with one of the dogs in the ring, and he nailed that too. Hooray progress! I knew he had it in him, but we've just never actually had a chance to work on it. She said part of my problem with Watson is that he needs more structure. He needs to know commands are black and white and mean one really specific thing. I leave him too many grey areas and when he doesn't know exactly what I want him to do he just checks out. No argument there. He is not an intuitive type dog, and he magnifies any inconsistencies or lack of clarity in my training.

Hazel was perfect, of course. Still some issues with the wobble board so I really need to get my husband to finish mine. But we worked on walking over planks (ones that tipped, and one propped against a pause table). She was so funny. The trainer had me lure it instead of shape it, which was kind of tricky (Hazel kept trying to only put her front feet on and wasn't sure what I wanted). But as soon as I stopped she hopped right up with all feet and looked at me like "Is this what you wanted? Why didn't you just say so?" With the plank on the pause table, I got her down it, and then she immediately turned and ran right back up and was so pleased with herself. She's a smart one. She's always thinking things through and trying to intuit what I want. The trainer asked how her recalls were and I said "basically perfect". So we did some restrained recalls and more of the shadow handling type stuff and of course Hazel was perfect at all of it. She's such a good girl. Even the trainer was like "Wow, she's just perfect". This dog is going to be so much fun to play agility with when she's bigger.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> Hazel is the best puppy of all time. Yesterday's class was super chaotic, with 5 big lab and bully mixes (all about 1-2 years old) just flailing and barking and screaming, but she was calm and composed and did everything perfectly. The first thing we did was get in a circle and work on stays. So dogs in a sit or down, stand at the end of your leash (or as far as you can get) with owners towards the middle of the circle. The dogs on both sides of her broke repeatedly and ran all over (confined by leashes at least) and she just glanced at them and held her stay while I was 5ft away. We pretty much never work on stays and I haven't done any proofing whatsoever.
> 
> The only thing she struggled with was refocusing on me after they waived a toy on a line around. The goal was for the dogs to look back at you without prompting and she was the only dog who did it, but it took her more time than I expected. She just loves toys, and I want her to love toys, so I'm ok with that. Something we can work on.
> 
> One of the trainers has been with me through most of Watson's classes and was calling me an over achiever last night. I feel like she's proud of me (and probably happy for me) to have a dog who is so good after Watson the wild child. And clearly I've come a long way as a trainer since those early classes with him.
> 
> Then there is the other assistant trainer who we've basically never had a class with, and she keeps being impressed by the littlest things that I've already trained Hazel to do outside of class (like nose touches). I'm pretty sure she thinks I've never done any of this before or she wouldn't be so amazed. lol





elrohwen said:


> Agility class update for CptJack!
> 
> We had our second private lesson last night and made a lot of progress with Watson. We started with some basic recalls and he zoomed off. She had me walk up and get him, and more or less drag him back to the spot by his collar. Make him uncomfortable so he doesn't see the benefit in running off, but tell him he's a good dog and don't hurt him or anything. I did that 3 times I think, and he never blew me off again. Yay! We did some recalls, and we also did some following/loose heeling off leash with front crosses and things. The first time he was still kind of sniffy and I had to do a lot of direction changes to keep him with me. But the second time he was much more engaged and interested. At the end of our time people came in for the next class and she had us do a recall with one of the dogs in the ring, and he nailed that too. Hooray progress! I knew he had it in him, but we've just never actually had a chance to work on it. She said part of my problem with Watson is that he needs more structure. He needs to know commands are black and white and mean one really specific thing. I leave him too many grey areas and when he doesn't know exactly what I want him to do he just checks out. No argument there. He is not an intuitive type dog, and he magnifies any inconsistencies or lack of clarity in my training.
> 
> Hazel was perfect, of course. Still some issues with the wobble board so I really need to get my husband to finish mine. But we worked on walking over planks (ones that tipped, and one propped against a pause table). She was so funny. The trainer had me lure it instead of shape it, which was kind of tricky (Hazel kept trying to only put her front feet on and wasn't sure what I wanted). But as soon as I stopped she hopped right up with all feet and looked at me like "Is this what you wanted? Why didn't you just say so?" With the plank on the pause table, I got her down it, and then she immediately turned and ran right back up and was so pleased with herself. She's a smart one. She's always thinking things through and trying to intuit what I want. The trainer asked how her recalls were and I said "basically perfect". So we did some restrained recalls and more of the shadow handling type stuff and of course Hazel was perfect at all of it. She's such a good girl. Even the trainer was like "Wow, she's just perfect". This dog is going to be so much fun to play agility with when she's bigger.


That's so awesome! For both Watson and Hazel. I'm glad you were able to get a puppy that was a little easier than Watson!


----------



## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> That's so awesome! For both Watson and Hazel. I'm glad you were able to get a puppy that was a little easier than Watson!


Omg, I am so thankful every single day. Haha. I love Watson so much, but he has not been easy as a first sports dog. I'm sure if I got Watson now that I am a better trainer it would have been easier, but he would still be who he is and he would never be easy. Though I am really glad I had him first. He has taught me so much about training dogs. If I had a Hazel first, I would've thought "this stuff isn't so hard!" and would have been in for a big surprise if my next dog wasn't as easy. I can also appreciate her so much more now, and I have some of the skills to help her live up to her potential.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> Omg, I am so thankful every single day. Haha. I love Watson so much, but he has not been easy as a first sports dog. I'm sure if I got Watson now that I am a better trainer it would have been easier, but he would still be who he is and he would never be easy. Though I am really glad I had him first. He has taught me so much about training dogs. If I had a Hazel first, I would've thought "this stuff isn't so hard!" and would have been in for a big surprise if my next dog wasn't as easy. I can also appreciate her so much more now, and I have some of the skills to help her live up to her potential.


Panzer is the same. He's so easy, it's like a walk in the park compared to Ryker. I'm also so relieved that he has shown 0 signs of SA. That was my biggest worry about getting a puppy. It really reinforces my belief that SA is largely genetic since they were both raised exactly the same way.


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## TGKvr

Fun goal realized! Now that it's football season... I can now prompt my girl to cheer for games. "Goooooo dawgs!" = BARK BARK BARK. Soooooo cute.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Panzer is the same. He's so easy, it's like a walk in the park compared to Ryker. I'm also so relieved that he has shown 0 signs of SA. That was my biggest worry about getting a puppy. It really reinforces my belief that SA is largely genetic since they were both raised exactly the same way.


Yeah, same with Hazel (though half of her genetics are Watson's so who knows). She will scream in her crate if she thinks we're doing fun things without her, but it's not anxiety and she's never really cried in her crate at night (which Watson did for 6 months) or when we go to work. I think part of it is gender too - I've noticed male Welshies tend to be momma's boys and cry if their owners walk away at shows, while the females don't really care. And it might help that she has Watson there, while he had to be all by himself. But I agree I'm so so glad I don't have to deal with that again.


----------



## CptJack

We didn't do agility last night :/ I'll be update-less with Molly until about Sunday. When I'm seriously considering taking JUST her to the show 'n go and leaving Kylie at home and then reversing for practice on Monday, but who knows what I'll actually do. 

Anyway, I am REALLY glad things are going well on all fronts. 

And to interject: Thud has made every dog that I will ever own again a walk in the park. Molly has some issues and Thud is a beautiful, rock solid, stable dog but holy CRAP.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> And to interject: Thud has made every dog that I will ever own again a walk in the park. Molly has some issues and Thud is a beautiful, rock solid, stable dog but holy CRAP.


And to give credit to Watson, he's much easier than Thud! He's a really good dog and a really good pet, he is just a really hard dog for a new trainer trying to get into dog sports.


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## jade5280

I'm a little disappointed in our puppy training instructor. We've gone to this facility before with Ryker, but had a different teacher who I liked better. Our instructor this time told someone not to stare at their dog because it's a "challenge". I've always rewarded eye contact, Ryker will stare a hole through my head lol. She also had us do a 'settle' exercise where you hold the puppy between your legs and pick it's front feet off the ground and hold it until it stops squirming. I don't really get the purpose of this. I guess it's good to teach them to be handled, but I think there's better ways to do that.

I'm not going for someone to teach me how to train my dog anyways, but I had higher expectations. At least she told people not to alpha roll their dogs.


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## ireth0

jade5280 said:


> I'm a little disappointed in our puppy training instructor. We've gone to this facility before with Ryker, but had a different teacher who I liked better. Our instructor this time told someone not to stare at their dog because it's a "challenge". I've always rewarded eye contact, Ryker will stare a hole through my head lol. She also had us do a 'settle' exercise where you hold the puppy between your legs and pick it's front feet off the ground and hold it until it stops squirming. I don't really get the purpose of this. I guess it's good to teach them to be handled, but I think there's better ways to do that.
> 
> I'm not going for someone to teach me how to train my dog anyways, but I had higher expectations. At least she told people not to alpha roll their dogs.


That's too bad. Maybe you can just passively ignore and do your own thing, haha. I've done that before in classes where either I disagreed with the method or knew it wouldn't work for Luna.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> I'm a little disappointed in our puppy training instructor. We've gone to this facility before with Ryker, but had a different teacher who I liked better. Our instructor this time told someone not to stare at their dog because it's a "challenge". I've always rewarded eye contact, Ryker will stare a hole through my head lol. She also had us do a 'settle' exercise where you hold the puppy between your legs and pick it's front feet off the ground and hold it until it stops squirming. I don't really get the purpose of this. I guess it's good to teach them to be handled, but I think there's better ways to do that.
> 
> I'm not going for someone to teach me how to train my dog anyways, but I had higher expectations. At least she told people not to alpha roll their dogs.


I'm actually kind of a fan of the forced cuddle thing. I've read it in a couple puppy books even. Not as a punishment, and sometimes it's just not the right time, but I think it's valuable to teach a dog to relax into restraint.

But yeah, the eye contact thing is just stupid. I spend all puppy class just rewarding my puppy for making eye contact. Haha


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## jade5280

ireth0 said:


> That's too bad. Maybe you can just passively ignore and do your own thing, haha. I've done that before in classes where either I disagreed with the method or knew it wouldn't work for Luna.


That's pretty much what I'm doing. I just wanted to get into classes so Panzer will learn to focus on me and settle in a distracting environment.


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> I'm actually kind of a fan of the forced cuddle thing. I've read it in a couple puppy books even. Not as a punishment, and sometimes it's just not the right time, but I think it's valuable to teach a dog to relax into restraint.
> 
> But yeah, the eye contact thing is just stupid. I spend all puppy class just rewarding my puppy for making eye contact. Haha


 I didn't think the forced cuddle was bad, but I didn't really get it. Panzer just flopped in my arms. When I tried to do that with Ryker when he was a baby he would freak out and go crazy. If she had us restrain them by making them stand and hold still it would have made more sense to me since that's what they have to do at the vet.


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## ireth0

jade5280 said:


> I didn't think the forced cuddle was bad, but I didn't really get it. Panzer just flopped in my arms. When I tried to do that with Ryker when he was a baby he would freak out and go crazy. If she had us restrain them by making them stand and hold still it would have made more sense to me since that's what they have to do at the vet.


Based on the eye contact reasoning maybe it's supposed to like... get them used to submitting to you or something?


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## jade5280

Forced restraints are very adverse for Ryker and I'm not sure if trying to do that when he was a baby made it worse.


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## Kyllobernese

Where do you order those CKC Rally cards from? I have Kris registered with the Caro Rally as well as I want to do the CKC Rally as there are only a few Caro Rally trials a year. I did take one short class about two years ago with Lucy just to get an idea of what Rally was all about but there are no Rally classes anywhere around me other than some that are a two hour drive each way to get to.


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## ireth0

Kyllobernese said:


> Where do you order those CKC Rally cards from? I have Kris registered with the Caro Rally as well as I want to do the CKC Rally as there are only a few Caro Rally trials a year. I did take one short class about two years ago with Lucy just to get an idea of what Rally was all about but there are no Rally classes anywhere around me other than some that are a two hour drive each way to get to.


Mrs Boats sells them, this is the etsy shop with all the different ones you can get; https://www.etsy.com/ca/shop/TrainEmTasks?ref=ss_profile


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## DogTheGreat

Have been putting a lot of time into Shae's settle cue lately. (I think we're a long ways away from her reliably relaxing without being prompted)

During the last 3-4 weeks she's just gotten so much more restless and tense in new environments or environments she doesn't spend a lot of time in. She was doing pretty good with me simply rewarding any unprompted relaxed behavior to the point where she was reasonably behaved and comfortable in public for a long time, but that's just not happening at this point. I took her to a new isolated and comfortable environment about a week ago, tried to wait her out to offer ANY truly relaxed behaviors, and 45 minutes in it was just a "yeah, she's not going to do it by herself" throw in the towel moment. So cueing without any "settle location" like a mat or crate which she does it is. We've been making some progress and it's probably taking her about 20 minutes now to reasonably chill out. Still a bit tense at that point and would undoubtedly pop right back up if something interrupted, but improvement nonetheless. She's going through a fair bit of changes recently and it's frustrating. 

BTW, if anybody has any resources on canine massage for relaxation purposes that they want to share with me, that'd be great .


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## TGKvr

This isn't backed by science or anything, just my own experience, but in getting a dog to really "settle", the best approach seems to be to slooowly stroke from head to tail, then while touching the dog heave a great big sigh. Then repeat this several times. The sigh seems to transmit something to them that the touch alone just doesn't. Most times the dog will sigh too shortly after. Like I said... no science there, but it's what I've done pretty successfully with a few different dogs. No idea if this would hold true across the board.


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## DogtorWho15

SO I have been working with Nova a very long time now trying to get her to be able to live with the chickens and this was the first day she was off leash with them. She did amazing!! Every once in a while she likes to chase them but I just grab her harness and she sits down and gives me a guilty look LOL Here are some pictures. We were feeding them all raw meat, but 3 days later we dont have to use meat to keep her focus off them anymore, she just walks right past them like they arent even there. I AM SO HAPPY WITH HER!!


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## Kathyy

DogtorWho15, that is impressive! 

Bucky had a major set back today in trail manners. It rained a couple nights ago and even though we were on a trail he has been on several times he completely lost his mind over all the new smells. He couldn't take food and was laying down in shade panting hard where Ginger wasn't panting at all. I'm going back this afternoon and just going to sit on him in the parking lot because that was just ridiculous. Just made a batch of garlic sardine bread in case he actually pays me any mind.


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## elrohwen

I'm also impressed by the chicken training! I don't think I could ever teach mine to leave chickens alone. I guess it would be expecting a lot from bird dogs. haha


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## DogtorWho15

Thanks guys! Someone told me that labs were bird dogs too so I didnt even want to teach her to be all right with the chickens cause they said itd be hard. But she also has aussie, so I thought I would give it a shot and sure enough! She isnt able to be with them without supervision until she matures more just so she doesnt go puppy on them, but id say she has made definite progress. Now all I got to do is work on everything else......


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## elrohwen

I think it's more about prey drive than anything. 

Also, as far as bird dogs go, the retrievers are at the lower end of the prey drive spectrum usually. They are bred to retrieve, not to track down and point/flush birds. My dogs are bred specifically to find birds and dive bomb them. Haha. They would not be able to sit in a blind like a lab and watch ducks swimming by, waiting for the hunter to shoot one. They would be screaming to get out there and flush the ducks.

ETA: Do you know she's part aussie? Looking at the picture you posted I would have guessed all lab.

ETA: Watson saw chickens once. He screamed and lunged for 5min when we were 200ft away from them. So yeah, probably not getting chickens any time soon. lol


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## CptJack

And loooots of herding breeds are over the top with prey-drive. It can be channeled into other behaviors, but the desire to herd is fundamentally just the desire to chase, and if you don't train and work with that, you've got a problem. I can not tell you how many bcs and aussies I see being rehomed via craigslist/private ads or rescues and shelters for chicken killing. Their biddability helps, especially when supervised, but the desire to chase them is STRONG and can be a pretty big issue.

To whit: I can call my BC off ANYTHING, but I can not trust her not to go after anything that moves fast, either. Would she grab/shake type kill? Probably not, I don't think, but she'd sure as heck chase it to death.


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## Kathyy

Well sitting on Bucky at the trailhead worked. He was able to lay down after a couple minutes so we took a tour of the parking lot. I got to sit on him a couple other times as this was apparently prime dog walking time but was able to get at a polite distance away from other dogs easily. He gets super freaked out because there is a stream bed between the parking lot and another access road to the park so he can see hikers, bikers, dogs from 1/4 mile away at a different level. Has to be mind bending if you haven't ever seen something like that before. I never noticed that road before we got Ginger who also was freaked out by it. Didn't bother Sassy or Max at all.

This was from the morning disaster. See the tongue? Cool morning and Ginger wasn't panting at all. I had to medicate with lots of chocolate after this one. Going back in this morning.


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## elrohwen

Poor Bucky! So he's just afraid? Or also aroused?


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## DogtorWho15

Yeah I know she has aussie in her. When she was really little she had a lot of aussie spots all over her body, she also got an aussie tail instead of lab, plus her eyes are blue.

She really was in a chasing mood this morning. I was so proud of her though because despite the chasing, she kept her distance from them and when they flew right over her head she just sat down and watched instead of trying to grab them. She doesnt pounce or bite thank goodness. I have noticed she has a bigger prey drive with the ducks, we havent let her out with them yet just cause she seems to always want to chase those guys. When she gets crazy I tell her to get her tug o war toy to redirect her excitement. 
I see tons of aussies and BC's as well, but not normally cause they arent good with livestock, mostly cause they are too much for what the owner was looking for. Lately though I have been seeing a lot of blue heelers for sale.

Elrohwen do you hunt with Watson and Hazel?? 


Also I need some info on harness training, I just started training Nova to wear one, but yesterday I was stupid and forgot to take it off her when I left. And when I came back it was chewed off.... help


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## elrohwen

DogtorWho15 said:


> Elrohwen do you hunt with Watson and Hazel??


Nope, we do too much other stuff so I don't have the time. Plus I don't want to keep dead pigeons in my freezer. lol Watson loves to hunt for things, but he gets over aroused and is hard to control. So far Hazel has a much better balance of prey drive to handler control, but she's a baby so we'll see. She flushes doves on our property and I've called her off the flying bird - so her prey drive is there but she can still listen when she's in drive. I think she would be really fun to hunt over if I was into that.




> Also I need some info on harness training, I just started training Nova to wear one, but yesterday I was stupid and forgot to take it off her when I left. And when I came back it was chewed off.... help


What do you need help with? I haven't trained either of my dogs to wear harnesses - I just put them on, we went for a walk, and that was that. Hazel flopped around for a fish for a couple seconds but then didn't care. And as you discovered, don't leave it on while you're gone


----------



## elrohwen

DogtorWho15 said:


> Yeah I know she has aussie in her. When she was really little she had a lot of aussie spots all over her body, she also got an aussie tail instead of lab, plus her eyes are blue.


What do you mean by aussie spots?


----------



## Kathyy

Aroused mostly I think. At the dog park he zooms in and does his very best to get all dogs to play with him and will get extremely rude if they won't - jumping on, sliming the back, gently biting at rear legs. He hasn't so much as mouthed people and allows them to pet him but he barks in their faces if they look directly at him. As for the running back and forth on leash I think it is too much NEW and he cannot decide how to get to it all at the same time. Hot dry apparently releases a lot less scent then warm damp!


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## elrohwen

Kathyy said:


> Aroused mostly I think. At the dog park he zooms in and does his very best to get all dogs to play with him and will get extremely rude if they won't - jumping on, sliming the back, gently biting at rear legs. He hasn't so much as mouthed people and allows them to pet him but he barks in their faces if they look directly at him. As for the running back and forth on leash I think it is too much NEW and he cannot decide how to get to it all at the same time. Hot dry apparently releases a lot less scent then warm damp!


Yeah, Watson is like that too. He gets so overaroused in new places and just ping pongs around, and then ends up panting. I saw the picture of Bucky and thought "That looks familiar!"


----------



## DogTheGreat

Took 30 minutes today for her to settle down (and completely this time!), she napped for 15 minutes, was startled awake by something, and when I told her to settle again she went back to napping within a couple of minutes for another 10 or so minutes until I decided to do something else. Improvement! Was not in an unfamiliar area, but an area where she has never spent significant time and thus has been unable to have a chance at relaxing in.

ETA: After a certain point, light strokes have been pretty helpful in relaxing her more but for some reason ANYTHING I did today just made things worse. So it was all on her own minus the cueing.


----------



## Kathyy

Well today went better mostly because it was warmer and no dogs. I put him on the flexi and the freedom to do a little exploring helped a lot. He wasn't so excited by cars/bikes/hikers up on the road and trail although he sure watched them closely. He usually just sat down at the end of the flexi when done exploring so I would call him to me for a cookie then we walked a few more steps. Went in the women's restroom, he was terrified but checked it all out. Still did the frog down at the car but I don't think his tongue was quite as long as yesterday. He was good and tired out, didn't bounce on Ginger when we got home and took a good nap. This wasn't a long session, maybe 30 minutes and 1/4 mile. New stuff is hard!

Dying to go again this evening but latent learning is important.


----------



## sassafras

Ok I really need to buckle down and work on Toast's heel. He has the basics and I know how I want to go about polishing it but need to put the work in.


----------



## DogTheGreat

Do most of you keep training logs? I'm finding myself forgetting when/what/how things were taught in sessions haha. But then again keeping logs would require me to, y'know, remember to write them down.


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## sassafras

I should. I would probably benefit from it. Actually I would probably benefit more from writing out a plan of what I WANT to do and ticking things off.

But I'm not organized enough to stick to something like that regardless of my intentions.


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## CptJack

I'm with you. The only successful training log I've kept has been related to knowing when to up agility criteria for a few fairly hard agility things with Kylie - and it amounted to check marks and xs and counting them. I mostly flit around all over the place. Not sure if it's an organizational issue or an attention span one, but there's a reason I always have a half dozen things on the go. 

That said, Molly's due to get the pieces of heeling put together, too. She's got a decent pivot, she can find my left leg, I just haven't... progressed past that at all. I... got bored.


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## sassafras

I'm flirting with the idea of doing IPO with Toast, and the heeling/OB is very precise and intense. I don't think I'm going to be able to commit the time to the sport but I don't want to write off the possibility, either.


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## DogtorWho15

elrohwen said:


> Nope, we do too much other stuff so I don't have the time. Plus I don't want to keep dead pigeons in my freezer. lol Watson loves to hunt for things, but he gets over aroused and is hard to control. So far Hazel has a much better balance of prey drive to handler control, but she's a baby so we'll see. She flushes doves on our property and I've called her off the flying bird - so her prey drive is there but she can still listen when she's in drive. I think she would be really fun to hunt over if I was into that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you need help with? I haven't trained either of my dogs to wear harnesses - I just put them on, we went for a walk, and that was that. Hazel flopped around for a fish for a couple seconds but then didn't care. And as you discovered, don't leave it on while you're gone
> 
> What do you mean by aussie spots?


Oh I see, I like watching videos of weims hunting, the way they crawl to flush the birds out is cute XD 

I mean how do I get her to not chew it and to be comfortable with it on walks. It is a little big for her right now but a smaller size would be too small. Will she eventually just get used to it if I just continue to walk with it and put it on her when she gets out of her yard to train and play?? 

If you go to her photo thread and look at the pics of her when she was 6 and 8 weeks, she has aussie markings, a lot of them faded but on her back and tail theres still a bit.


----------



## Laurelin

We won a lottery for a gold spot in Denise Fenzi's play class! I'm excited to get to work with her if only long distance! 

Just had to brag. I just saw the email today and barely claimed my spot in time. But we're all signed up!


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> We won a lottery for a gold spot in Denise Fenzi's play class! I'm excited to get to work with her if only long distance!
> 
> Just had to brag. I just saw the email today and barely claimed my spot in time. But we're all signed up!


So excited to watch you guys!



I'm dreading Hazel's obedience class tonight. There are only 5 other dogs, which isn't too bad, but they are all large and absolutely nuts. Actually, one is pretty good, but 4 of them are barking, flailing, jumping, crazy dogs who can't even hold a sit for a couple seconds. I sympathize, I've been there, and I really don't have a problem with having one of those crazy dogs in class, but 4 of them is just a lot. It's kind of overwhelming and gives me a headache after a while.

It also means that the instructors spend a ton of time one on one with those owners and it limits the time I get to do things with my dog. It also limits the level of work we get to do because they can't make things any harder. Luckily there are 3 instructors (only two last week though) which helps speed things up.

Like one example that annoyed me last week. They had a toy on a leash that they waved in front of the dogs. The goal was to have the dog look back at the owner on his/her own and to reward that. At least half of the people weren't able to keep the dog from touching the toy, so of course the dog isn't going to look back if he thinks he can keep pulling and eventually get to it. It's not that hard to keep the leash one length and just stand there and wait. We've done this type of exercise multiple times in the Basic class, so I don't understand why people aren't getting it. Then it makes their turn take forever because they don't have simple mechanics down and the dog never really figures out what they want.


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## ireth0

That sucks!

For things like that in our classes we were supposed to use whatever distraction was appropriate for our dog for the level they were at.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> That sucks!
> 
> For things like that in our classes we were supposed to use whatever distraction was appropriate for our dog for the level they were at.


I can't even imagine what people would do if they had to come up with their own distraction. LOL Other than food, a toy sitting on the ground is one of the lowest level distractions you can find probably. They weren't teasing the dogs with it, just dangling it there. If the owners had just kept the leash shorter and not allowed the dogs to get right up to the toy and touch it, they wouldn't have had a problem. But consistently week after week they let the dog run right up to the toy, touch it (only kept from grabbing it by the instructor who tries to keep it away) and then the dog is having so much fun trying to get it that there's no way they are going to look back at the owner voluntarily. They've basically turned an It's Yer Choice game into a drive building game of "pull as hard as you can and maybe you'll get the toy this time!" If they just kept the dog 4ft from the toy at all times, the dog would be able to make the correct choice. The instructors walk them through it every time, but for some reason most of the people in the class (and in my last class) just don't seem to get it. It's really frustrating to watch.


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## ireth0

Yea, I mean the instructor wouldn't just be like "Use whatever you want!" but she'd give examples like "If your dog gets really excited by toys, try some food first. Or if your dog really LOVES food, use a toy instead, then work up to moving or throwing the toy" and then she'd sort of be overviewing what everyone was doing and make suggestions or give feedback where she felt necessary. So if someone was using something as a distraction that wasn't appropriate for their dog at that time she would point it out and suggest something else. 

Instead of trying to fit all the dogs into the exact same exercise which is what it sounds like was the case with your guys.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea, I mean the instructor wouldn't just be like "Use whatever you want!" but she'd give examples like "If your dog gets really excited by toys, try some food first. Or if your dog really LOVES food, use a toy instead, then work up to moving or throwing the toy" and then she'd sort of be overviewing what everyone was doing and make suggestions or give feedback where she felt necessary. So if someone was using something as a distraction that wasn't appropriate for their dog at that time she would point it out and suggest something else.
> 
> Instead of trying to fit all the dogs into the exact same exercise which is what it sounds like was the case with your guys.


Well, we've done the typical It's Yer Choice games with food. And putting food in bowls and impulse control with that. So I think the idea is to work on a variety of distractions - food, toys, and strangers.

More of the dogs are distracted by the person holding the toy more than the actual toy. The owners let the dogs run up and jump on the instructor holding the toy, which is also an issue. Basically it doesn't matter what the distraction is, if you keep letting the dog access it you are just teaching them to try harder. The dogs steal food too when it's food being used as the distraction. We just didn't do that exercise last week specifically so I didn't complain about it 

ETA: It's been a while, and I might be remembering it differently than it was, but we did all of these same exercises in Watson's basic classes and I don't remember anybody having these types of basic training mechanics issues. Maybe the dog had a hard time turning away from the toy, but at least the owner did their job.


----------



## ireth0

Yea agreed. 

Also I guess not really a training thing but maybe?

This weekend my dad came with us on our hike. Luna was pulling and my dad and I were switching off who had her leash on the hike (brand new area, outdoors, lots of other dogs... I expected pulling) but I was kind of happy that she did walk better for me than she did for my dad. (even though her walking was far from perfect but hey, you take what you can get.

Also after the hike we set up camp chairs for the BBQ. I asked my dad to hold her while I got some things out of my backpack. Then all of a sudden Luna was -gone- after something and he just wasn't prepared at all. Fortunately she didn't go far at all and I got her back, but it was just interesting to me the difference because when I have her at events like that I'm constantly scanning the area and watching her body language to predict problems before they happen. It's something I didn't even realize I did until I realized some people didn't, lol. (The thing she went after turned out to be a dog's long line dragging an empty poop bag... lure coursing anyone?)

Another time on the hike we had to cross a log bridge and I didn't feel safe doing it the way Luna was pulling, so my dad went across and I told him I would send her across to him and he would catch her. Which... of course, he didn't and I had to go grab her. I totally face palmed. I mean, it's not like Luna is super speedy or he was caught off guard. I guess I'm just used to having to grab dogs in a hurry.

To be clear it's not that my dad is old or weak or anything, he's very fit and certainly stronger than me. It's just the difference between being dog savvy and not I guess? Does that make me dog savvy?


----------



## elrohwen

That makes you a good dog owner!

I think a lot of people aren't good at scanning the environment or predicting what dogs will do. Sometimes they get super laid back dogs and it doesn't matter so much, but when they get the wild dogs they turn into the "It's ok! He's friendly!" person as their dog slips the collar and runs away from them. 

Also just general observational skills. My husband is a good dog owner, and he knows we have to manage Watson, but it seems like I always see potential problems before he does. I think I'm just better at multitasking?


----------



## sassafras

Went to the park to practice heeling with Toast, treats were not high value enough.

Used squirrels instead, abandoned heeling and just worked on learning that eye contact makes the bus go. I must have looked like a fool, standing around for minutes at time then shrieking YES! when my dog looked at me and running with him to a tree. Over and over. The things we do. lolz


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## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> Went to the park to practice heeling with Toast, treats were not high value enough.
> 
> Used squirrels instead, abandoned heeling and just worked on learning that eye contact makes the bus go. I must have looked like a fool, standing around for minutes at time then shrieking YES! when my dog looked at me and running with him to a tree. Over and over. The things we do. lolz


Any tips for using Premack? I've tried so hard to use it with Watson and I've totally failed. All I did was increase his drive for critters/scents, and the only behavior I can get is brief eye contact. So he makes brief eye contact and is so over the top that he won't do anything else, and then if I don't let him go and sniff immediately he wigs out and gets really frustrated with me. I like the idea of Premack and I think it would be ideal for him but I just can't figure out how to do it in a way that isn't just increasing his drive for critters and making him high as a kite.


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## sassafras

Try using it with lower value rewards maybe? At first, I mean.

The other thing I do is variably reward, especially when mushing. I only release maybe one time in ten or so after a successful ON BY, for example.


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## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> Try using it with lower value rewards maybe? At first, I mean.
> 
> The other thing I do is variably reward, especially when mushing. I only release maybe one time in ten or so after a successful ON BY, for example.


I think the problem I got into was reinforcing every time, so now if he doesn't get to go he gets very frustrated. In his mind the game is eye contact -> going to sniff and if I deviate from that he gets flaily. I've started to ask for different behaviors (sit-down-sit for example) and then releasing, hoping he understands that he can do other behaviors with more duration. I dunno. And I have started using it only occasionally for reinforcement trying to fix that initial problem.

I've had good enough luck with a basic "go sniff" when he's not particularly interested in sniffing, like we're out for a walk and sniffing is fun, but there's no particular scent. In that case the value of my food rewards is probably about the same or higher than sniffing and he can easily transition between working with me and sniffing. But I can't figure out how to transfer to something that is very high value for him. A half hour old deer trail can count as highly stimulating, so it's not like I'm trying to use running critters or something. 

I guess it's similar to a dog who gets over the top high when he sees a toy in your hand. He needs to learn impulse control, but if you do it wrong and hold the dog back from what he wants you'll just increase his frustration and drive for the toy instead. I feel like that's what I've done with Premack. The theory sounds so nice and simple!


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## sassafras

Yea, that makes sense. It's tricky. But I did notice a huge improvement in "on by" while mushing once I started using it judiciously at the few spots on our regular routes where I can predict we might run into trouble (there is even a tree I specifically call the "on by tree" lol). 

Today I was just winging it so I pretty much did just run from one tree to the other as a reward.


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## dagwall

I use premack with Jubel to help keep him from going crazy over squirrels, rewarded by getting go after squirrel. He has to sit and wait for release and I'll run with him up to the tree the squirrel went up. Only use it when the tree is pretty close so it's only a few big steps for me. He's pretty good about only getting excited about squirrels that run right in front of us.


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## FaithFurMom09

Charlie worked on "high five" yesterday and we are still working on roll over and speak. I did try introducing the bell to her and its hit and miss.


----------



## Flaming

Debating on joining another fenzi class.

We all done bronze "Engagement" and weirdly enough we sailed through (mostly Manna sailed through Vitae needed a little work and still is scattered brained) to the point where I got bored with it. 

Debating going into "Focus" this semester. 

should I?


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## ireth0

God I love seeing this dog think.

We were doing foundation 'go outs' around a plunger (aka running to the plunger with the dog and guiding them around it). Luna kept trying to paw it because that is her default behaviour when presented with a new object. (her catchphrase isn't "Luna smash" for nothing)

After a couple times of that not getting anything and me moving her around, there was one time where she got halfway around the plunger and hesitated and looked at me. You could just tell she was thinking about pawing it. But then she didn't! She made a good decision and just continued around with me! Of course after that she still tried to paw it a couple times, but hey! In that moment she made a good decision! lol


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I use premack with Jubel to help keep him from going crazy over squirrels, rewarded by getting go after squirrel. He has to sit and wait for release and I'll run with him up to the tree the squirrel went up. Only use it when the tree is pretty close so it's only a few big steps for me. He's pretty good about only getting excited about squirrels that run right in front of us.


It just seems to make Watson more excited. He gets frantic because he thinks he might get to run after the squirrel, so he starts flipping out (usually offers eye contact, then lunges, then offers eye contact again, then whines, then sits, then barks at me, etc). When I just went back to "leave it" where he never got to chase the squirrel, but could get treats, he calmed down a lot. Either I just missed some critical part of the Premack thing, or he's just not a dog who is a good candidate for it in that sense. Mild sniffing, sure, but maybe he needs to know that he's never allowed to chase small critters ever.


----------



## elrohwen

Flaming said:


> Debating on joining another fenzi class.
> 
> We all done bronze "Engagement" and weirdly enough we sailed through (mostly Manna sailed through Vitae needed a little work and still is scattered brained) to the point where I got bored with it.
> 
> Debating going into "Focus" this semester.
> 
> should I?


I think you'll find Focus to be too basic and boring, honestly. I found it pretty basic and boring and I have a dog who gets distracted. At least the Engagement class pushed him to learn a new way of engaging with me, but the focus stuff was basically what we have been doing since day 1. Look at me, get a treat. Then look at me, do a behavior, get a treat.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> It just seems to make Watson more excited. He gets frantic because he thinks he might get to run after the squirrel, so he starts flipping out (usually offers eye contact, then lunges, then offers eye contact again, then whines, etc). When I just went back to "leave it" where he never got to chase the squirrel, but could get treats, he calmed down a lot.


Sometimes, the reward is just too high value to be useful in the sort of behavior you want, you know? I don't see why that wouldn't be true with Premack as much as it is when I want relatively calm behavior from Molly and wave a frisbee in her face. I want wild and energetic behavior, I use balls and tugs and discs because they ramp her up. I want her to take it down a notch, think and act like she has a brain in her head, I use food.

So that's all that sounds like to me, as opposed to you doing it 'wrong'. If I wanted to use premack for him I'd use it in a situation where you wanted crazy energy and excitement. Not in a situation where you wanted him to brain for any length of time. Recall, maybe. 'Come back to me and you can go to the squirrel!' but not for anything lower key.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Sometimes, the reward is just too high value to be useful in the sort of behavior you want, you know? I don't see why that wouldn't be true with Premack as much as it is when I want relatively calm behavior from Molly and wave a frisbee in her face. I want wild and energetic behavior, I use balls and tugs and discs because they ramp her up. I want her to take it down a notch, think and act like she has a brain in her head, I use food.


Yeah, that's a really good way to think about it. Critters are basically the highest of the high value rewards for him and I think trying to use them for thoughtful calm behavior may never be a good idea. He seems to do better if it's a hard line of "No, you do not have access to that thing, so just forget about it"


----------



## jade5280

Our training club is offering a new class called Competitive Obedience Puppy Genius where they teach motivational recalls, starting head-up heeling, come off distractions as well as sit & down stay. I think I would get a ton more out of that then the class we're in now. Going to see if they offer it at nights!


----------



## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Our training club is offering a new class called Competitive Obedience Puppy Genius where they teach motivational recalls, starting head-up heeling, come off distractions as well as sit & down stay. I think I would get a ton more out of that then the class we're in now. Going to see if they offer it at nights!


Omg, sign me up! I wish I had access to a class like that around here! Our classes do introduce some competition obedience stuff (last night we tried formal obedience recalls from a stay, instead of the restrained recalls we had been doing) but it's still all pet people so they keep it pretty casual and manners based. I would love to take a class focused on performance foundations.


----------



## elrohwen

Our class last night had some highs and lows. Half the people were late, so we got there, everybody was settled and calm and it was really nice, and then the other people trickled in 5-15min late and set everybody off barking. The instructor kind of chewed them out a little (nicely). 

I need to work more on Hazel's heeling. I was trying to get heads up pranciness during the leash walking part of class, but she was getting bored and lagging behind. She drives into it if I put the cookie right on her nose, but I'm trying to fade to the cookie up above her head and she loses interest. Time to practice more!

She surprised me and did a formal recall from about 20ft away. The instructor stepped on leashes for the other dogs in case they broke their stays, and I assumed she would do the same for us, but when we got into the ring she stood back and had me set up. Hazel did stand up when I turned my back on her - I've never practiced stays where I turned away, so it was understandable. I put her back and tried again and she was like "Oh, ok, I get it now" and held her stay like a pro. I walked 20ft, turned, waited 3 seconds, and called and she was perfect. Such a good little puppy. She is so smart and intuitive and makes leaps in training that I've never seen Watson make. It took a couple weeks and practicing at home for him to understand a stay and recall like that, but she just gets it.


----------



## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> Omg, sign me up! I wish I had access to a class like that around here! Our classes do introduce some competition obedience stuff (last night we tried formal obedience recalls from a stay, instead of the restrained recalls we had been doing) but it's still all pet people so they keep it pretty casual and manners based. I would love to take a class focused on performance foundations.


 I know right! The training club is known for teaching competitive agility so they have a lot of agility classes and it seems they are now offering a lot more for competitive OB as well. Next year they are going to have dock diving too!


----------



## sassafras

elrohwen said:


> I need to work more on Hazel's heeling. I was trying to get heads up pranciness during the leash walking part of class, but she was getting bored and lagging behind. She drives into it if I put the cookie right on her nose, but I'm trying to fade to the cookie up above her head and she loses interest. Time to practice more!


I've been using a new technique after getting some advice at a local IPO club to teach them that eye contact and correct position drives the bus. It's fine to hold the food right at their nose, but no movement and no treat without eye contact. If they get distracted, forge, or lag - just stop moving and wait. When they offer eye contact then mark, treat, and start moving again. Gradually expect longer in correct position and with eye contact as you fade the treats. 

What I like about this method is that it doesn't really matter where your hand is and they're learning that your hand position is irrelevant to the expectations. It's where the treats come from, but it's just another distraction to ignore. Maintaining eye contact/head's up seems to drive that prancey walk. It's helpful to walk really slowly at first, too.


----------



## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> I've been using a new technique after getting some advice at a local IPO club to teach them that eye contact and correct position drives the bus. It's fine to hold the food right at their nose, but no movement and no treat without eye contact. If they get distracted, forge, or lag - just stop moving and wait. When they offer eye contact then mark, treat, and start moving again. Gradually expect longer in correct position and with eye contact as you fade the treats.
> 
> What I like about this method is that it doesn't really matter where your hand is and they're learning that your hand position is irrelevant to the expectations. It's where the treats come from, but it's just another distraction to ignore. Maintaining eye contact/head's up seems to drive that prancey walk. It's helpful to walk really slowly at first, too.


That's kind of what I do. No forward movement unless head is up and there is eye contact, though I do heavily lure at the beginning to help solidify position and build muscle memory. I didn't with Watson and while he made eye contact he was too far away from me and often wrapped - he just didn't have a good idea of correct position. Most of the stuff I've done with her is cookie on her nose and pushing into the cookie (like what Alexis and Adrianne are doing in some of their early videos). I haven't done that much to move her beyond that though. So in class last night I was doing a lot of stopping or even backing up in order to re-engage her. I've moved on to more perch/pivot work at home to get her using her hind end and finding position on her own, with less emphasis on forward movement. Most of the stuff I'm doing is based on Denise Fenzi's Precision Heeling class that I originally did with Watson. 

Watson's heel is very much not prancy. I think it's partially how he's built, because he can do heads up heeling with eye contact but he doesn't get his butt down and front end elevated at all. I think Hazel has a better build for it and I'd like to get something a little prancier this time.


----------



## sassafras

I'm terrible at the push thing. I have a hard time feeling it and so I think I'm just not very good at being consistent with criteria and I really struggled. It's much easier for me to forget about the push and just expect the eye contact. Then I don't have to worry about my hand position or elevating the treat, either.


----------



## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> I'm terrible at the push thing. I have a hard time feeling it and so I think I'm just not very good at being consistent with criteria and I really struggled. It's much easier for me to forget about the push and just expect the eye contact. Then I don't have to worry about my hand position or elevating the treat, either.


The push stuff was kind of a nice addition to the Precision Heeling stuff I was already doing, and I really like her animation and position when I do it. I just need to work on fading the lure to above her head a bit while getting the same kind of action.

I'm also toying with not using eye contact at all. My heeling experience is limited, but pushing for eye contact causes Watson to wrap around my leg and come out in front. And if I have to look where I'm going he wraps around further trying to find my eyes. I don't know exactly how I plan to pick a different target, but I think I can use a toy to reward position with Hazel which will help a lot. I like the idea of an armpit target though I'm not sure I would be able to train it without hands on help. That's why I'm rewarding more for heads up right now with focus on the treat/lure vs eye contact while I figure it out.


----------



## MrsBoats

jade5280 said:


> I know right! The training club is known for teaching competitive agility so they have a lot of agility classes and it seems they are now offering a lot more for competitive OB as well. Next year they are going to have dock diving too!


Are you going to American K9 Country in Amherst?? They are a performance dog training mecca....you are in good hands with any of the instructors there. Celeste Meade doesn't hire losers.


----------



## jade5280

MrsBoats said:


> Are you going to American K9 Country in Amherst?? They are a performance dog training mecca....you are in good hands with any of the instructors there. Celeste Meade doesn't hire losers.


Yes I am! Do you ever go there?


----------



## Kathyy

elrohwen said:


> It just seems to make Watson more excited. He gets frantic because he thinks he might get to run after the squirrel, so he starts flipping out (usually offers eye contact, then lunges, then offers eye contact again, then whines, then sits, then barks at me, etc). When I just went back to "leave it" where he never got to chase the squirrel, but could get treats, he calmed down a lot. Either I just missed some critical part of the Premack thing, or he's just not a dog who is a good candidate for it in that sense. Mild sniffing, sure, but maybe he needs to know that he's never allowed to chase small critters ever.


I learned about Premack by the back door. Sassy was a ferocious gopher hunter and adored digging for ages at holes. This was something we had done since she arrived and probably her favorite thing to do during the course of a walk. Lots of waste ground around and during the rainy season ground was soft enough and she actually filled in her trenches as she dug. I was releasing her to the hole but only pulling her away, never tried to call her out as she was completely out of her head and ears didn't work or so I thought. I took some cookies with me, put a cookie at her nose as she was just about done digging and used the leash and cue and lure to get her out of the hole. Then I let her back right away. She really was done and not all that interested in digging so next time I probably didn't use leash pressure. I'd try allowing him to have a good time jumping and barking at the treed squirrel and once you see he is getting good and tired shove a cookie up his nose and lead him away. That way you are teaching him on something of high value when he is happy but a bit tired rather than when he is over the top and out of his mind excited.

My advantage was nobody likes gophers and gopher hunts are either completely silent or muffled by dirt most of the time. This did transfer to squirrel and possum treeing in the back yard quite nicely. Those events were a problem as they are noisy and possum treeing is at night of course. The inchworm walks to the treed squirrels on walks went much better after this as well. You know, sit/stay/come with you backing up to the tree and releasing to 'chase' that treed squirrel once dog isn't going to put forbidden tension on the leash with the lunge to the tree.


----------



## MrsBoats

jade5280 said:


> Yes I am! Do you ever go there?


I haven't been there much in the past....but I'm thinking about going more for agility trials with Ocean. My dad lives in Hollis.


----------



## jade5280

MrsBoats said:


> I haven't been there much in the past....but I'm thinking about going more for agility trials with Ocean. My dad lives in Hollis.


You totally should! I used to live in Milford, but recently moved to Greenfield.


----------



## elrohwen

Kathyy said:


> I learned about Premack by the back door. Sassy was a ferocious gopher hunter and adored digging for ages at holes. This was something we had done since she arrived and probably her favorite thing to do during the course of a walk. Lots of waste ground around and during the rainy season ground was soft enough and she actually filled in her trenches as she dug. I was releasing her to the hole but only pulling her away, never tried to call her out as she was completely out of her head and ears didn't work or so I thought. I took some cookies with me, put a cookie at her nose as she was just about done digging and used the leash and cue and lure to get her out of the hole. Then I let her back right away. She really was done and not all that interested in digging so next time I probably didn't use leash pressure. I'd try allowing him to have a good time jumping and barking at the treed squirrel and once you see he is getting good and tired shove a cookie up his nose and lead him away. That way you are teaching him on something of high value when he is happy but a bit tired rather than when he is over the top and out of his mind excited.
> 
> My advantage was nobody likes gophers and gopher hunts are either completely silent or muffled by dirt most of the time. This did transfer to squirrel and possum treeing in the back yard quite nicely. Those events were a problem as they are noisy and possum treeing is at night of course. The inchworm walks to the treed squirrels on walks went much better after this as well. You know, sit/stay/come with you backing up to the tree and releasing to 'chase' that treed squirrel once dog isn't going to put forbidden tension on the leash with the lunge to the tree.


We have a groundhog who lives under our porch. I haven't seen in him ages, but based on the dog's reaction I'm pretty sure he's still under there and comes out when I'm not around. One time I decided to see if Watson would ever tire of pacing back and forth and sniffing for him. I spent 40min following him around on leash and he was still at it. I got him away from it with treats and tried to sit down in the yard and relax and he pulled and whined and lunged for another 20min trying to get back to it. LOL Maybe I didn't wait him out long enough for that was about all I had patience for. He kind of gets more OCD about it the longer I let him go, rather than become tired and "fulfilled". I think he would only be fulfilled if he actually caught something. Like in nosework he searches and finds it and completes that cycle and comes away happy and fulfilled and not crazy.


----------



## Laurelin

This Fenzi Play book is really good so far.

"Training is not all about the dog; it's about the team"

"work with the dog you have- not the one you wanted" (paraphrased)

Simple but very much something I needed to hear.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> This Fenzi Play book is really good so far.
> 
> "Training is not all about the dog; it's about the team"
> 
> "work with the dog you have- not the one you wanted" (paraphrased)
> 
> Simple but very much something I needed to hear.


I love that book! There are so many things related to teaching tug that I just never thought about before. And super simple things that I used to get Watson really excited in some toys he was previously ho-hum about. We're doing the Play class at Bronze and I hope to put some more work into him on toy play.


----------



## Laurelin

I'm excited about the play class! Trying to read the play book before the class starts (was working on book 1 but wanted to read this one before the class)

It'll be interesting. Hank is a decent player and I think I am too. But he's not great everywhere and his most enjoyable play style involves a lot of biting me. So maybe we'll learn a way to make the play more universal for us and more enjoyable for me.


----------



## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I'm excited about the play class! Trying to read the play book before the class starts (was working on book 1 but wanted to read this one before the class)
> 
> It'll be interesting. Hank is a decent player and I think I am too. But he's not great everywhere and his most enjoyable play style involves a lot of biting me. So maybe we'll learn a way to make the play more universal for us and more enjoyable for me.


Watson's toy play is really really bad. I'm pretty sure he only tugs with me because he wants to get the toy, and once he gets it he wants to run away and rip it apart. So he's a very possessive player, rather than being in it for the play itself. And he pretty much won't look at toys outdoors unless it's on a flirt pole. We need some real help with cooperation so it's fun for both of us. If we play by my rules he gets annoyed, and if I let him do what he wants I get annoyed (because he wants to play keep away). His personal play is really good though which I'm proud of. He does bite a lot but it's only my hands and arms and it's gentle so I'm ok with that. 

So far Hazel's toy play is excellent and I don't want to ruin it the way I did with Watson's (though maybe that was more his personality than anything). And I don't have much personal play with her other than her jumping up on me.


----------



## MrsBoats

jade5280 said:


> You totally should! I used to live in Milford, but recently moved to Greenfield.



I'll give you a heads up when I go up to NH.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs

I finally got my dog to retrieve a ball!!! YAY! He loves to chase it, but the bringing it back was a huge source of frustration to us, I know he only brings it back because he knows thats what I want and wants to please me, but still I'll take it over having to get it myself or have poor Josefina have to go and get it LOL ... not I dont even have to take her out there with us anymore!


----------



## elrohwen

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I finally got my dog to retrieve a ball!!! YAY! He loves to chase it, but the bringing it back was a huge source of frustration to us, I know he only brings it back because he knows thats what I want and wants to please me, but still I'll take it over having to get it myself or have poor Josefina have to go and get it LOL ... not I dont even have to take her out there with us anymore!


Have you tried playing the two ball game? I've found it to be the easiest way by far to get a consistent retrieve.


----------



## sassafras

elrohwen said:


> The push stuff was kind of a nice addition to the Precision Heeling stuff I was already doing, and I really like her animation and position when I do it. I just need to work on fading the lure to above her head a bit while getting the same kind of action.
> 
> I'm also toying with not using eye contact at all. My heeling experience is limited, but pushing for eye contact causes Watson to wrap around my leg and come out in front. And if I have to look where I'm going he wraps around further trying to find my eyes. I don't know exactly how I plan to pick a different target, but I think I can use a toy to reward position with Hazel which will help a lot. I like the idea of an armpit target though I'm not sure I would be able to train it without hands on help. That's why I'm rewarding more for heads up right now with focus on the treat/lure vs eye contact while I figure it out.


Yea I do struggle with forging a little bit. No matter what I do I struggle with SOMETHING lol.


----------



## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> Yea I do struggle with forging a little bit. No matter what I do I struggle with SOMETHING lol.


I haven't worked on heeling in a while with Watson, and for a bit he was sad dog who lagged. Then I got his energy up and now he forges like mofo trying to look up in my face. I think it's really an issue of him not having a solid target to focus on in general, other than eye contact, which is why I kind of want to change some things with Hazel. He loves his Lotus ball so I'm considering putting it under my armpit in Rally tonight to see what he does. 

Heeling is so hard. You fix one thing and something else breaks.


----------



## sassafras

elrohwen said:


> Heeling is so hard. You fix one thing and something else breaks.


Yea, and ultimately... I don't really care THAT much about it. So it's hard for me to polish it to perfection. Rally is a good venue because "good enough" heeling is generally good enough, but... I get a little bored of it. Dog owner problems lol.


----------



## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> Yea, and ultimately... I don't really care THAT much about it. So it's hard for me to polish it to perfection. Rally is a good venue because "good enough" heeling is generally good enough, but... I get a little bored of it. Dog owner problems lol.


I really like the idea of heeling. Like when we're on, it's so cool. But I just can't seem to put in the time to get it really polished. I'm sure I'm making it harder on both of us because I'm still feeling around for how best to train it.

I like Rally too. Watson would completely deflate on a long straight line heeling pattern, but he loves doing all of the little doodles (especially left turns and pivots). It keeps him interested and on his toes. And I like that we can get by with good enough heeling. If I could just get him working off leash away from home I think he could do well. As a sport it's kind of boring, but he's much less stressy about Rally than agility and it's nice to have something I know he'll enjoy.


----------



## sassafras

Welp I just signed up for Fenzi's "Get Focused!" so we'll see how that goes.


----------



## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> Welp I just signed up for Fenzi's "Get Focused!" so we'll see how that goes.


Give us an update on how you like it! I was underwhelmed by the exercises, but the lectures had some good stuff to think about. Are you doing it with Squash?


----------



## sassafras

Well I'm primarily doing it with Toast, actually, but it's at silver level so it's not like I can't work with both of them.


----------



## DogtorWho15

can yall give me clicker training info or links on how to use it on walks? I just got a clicker yesterday, and Nova has been having trouble lately keeping focus on the walk and not on all the neighborhood dogs. Also what should I do with her being really cautious of people?? Our neighbors approached us yesterday and she wags her tail but if they try and pet her she backs up really quickly and every once in a while she will growl at people when they approach her, she is just very cautious, I dont think she is scared cause she has no reason to be, but she has always been a shy skittish dog. Thanks!


----------



## Laurelin

Kikopup is a great place to start clicker 101! She is on youtube.

https://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup

She also has some walking/loose leash videos too.


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## DogtorWho15

Cool thanks I will check her out!


----------



## elrohwen

DogtorWho15 said:


> can yall give me clicker training info or links on how to use it on walks? I just got a clicker yesterday, and Nova has been having trouble lately keeping focus on the walk and not on all the neighborhood dogs. Also what should I do with her being really cautious of people?? Our neighbors approached us yesterday and she wags her tail but if they try and pet her she backs up really quickly and every once in a while she will growl at people when they approach her, she is just very cautious, I dont think she is scared cause she has no reason to be, but she has always been a shy skittish dog. Thanks!


If she's cautious around people, don't let them approach her or pet her. It will just make her more nervous. Tell people to ignore her and let her approach at her own pace. If she relaxes and seems to be soliciting attention, they can try to pet her or give her a treat.

I also strongly disagree with your statement that she's not scared. If she's growling and backing away, then she is scared.


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## ireth0

Agree with the above. Tail wagging doesn't necessarily mean she's happy. It can be like smiling with people where you smile to diffuse an uncomfortable situation or because you don't know what else to do.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> If she's cautious around people, don't let them approach her or pet her. It will just make her more nervous. Tell people to ignore her and let her approach at her own pace. If she relaxes and seems to be soliciting attention, they can try to pet her or give her a treat.
> 
> I also strongly disagree with your statement that she's not scared. If she's growling and backing away, then she is scared.


This - all of it. It doesn't matter if you see the reason for her to be afraid - she does, and all she needs, really, as a reason is not knowing the people and feeling comfortable with them touching her/paying attention to her. 

If you have facebook, watch this: 

https://www.facebook.com/137403276291620/videos/1017680364930569/?pnref=story


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## CptJack

I can't even remember the last time I used food rewards for Molly outside of class. That's so, so weird for me. She's the first dog I've had who would work consistently and well for a toy, and it was SO WEIRD for a long time. Now it's just my default, and I like it a A LOT, even if my mechanics are somewhat lacking.


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## DogtorWho15

Okay thank you! I will tell people to not acknowledge her, she is great with kids but not humans that are bigger than her. 
The reason I didnt think she was scared was because she would get down on her chest like a bow and wag her tail and do little hops like she does when she wants to play, but putting on a good face makes sense. I really need her to be comfortable with people so I dont have problems at the vet, I dont want her to snap at someone cause she feels cornered.

And I dont have facebook sorry. Do they have the video on youtube??


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## CptJack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kePmd8lMRo

The gist of it is, though, just to say no.


----------



## Laurelin

After a few weeks of work I now have 3 dogs that will happily wait their turn going in and out of the back door. Mia has only hidden from the potty trip once lately, which is a huge improvement from her previous potty strike. Hank had reverted back to trying to bite her as she went out the door which made Mia decide pottying wasn't worth it and she'd go hide when I try to let them out (Yeah I felt kind of horrible). Problem solved if Mia goes out first.


----------



## Canyx

I'm currently working on really polished Downs (turns out he spent his entire life taking one-two steps forward before doing it), crossing paws with his left (does a right paw cross like a pro), working while facing away from me (one of the hardest things I've ever tried teaching him), and I am still still still trying to be diligent about putting money toward trick titles...


----------



## Kyllobernese

Now that our Agility trials are pretty well over for the year, I will be back to doing Obedience training three days a week. I still do a run-through and some training on the Agility equipment right now but it will soon be too cold to keep that up all winter. We have a heated place to practice the Obedience. I am trying to get enough people together to do some Rally which would be on a fourth day a week. So that would be Monday, Wednesday and Saturdays at noon and Tuesdays at eleven if we do Rally.

Kris has been ready to try for her C.D. degree for quite a while but got sidetracked on the Agility and would really rather do Rally to start.


----------



## HVani

We adopted Rikku a week ago today. She has already learned her name, sit and recall. She's also working on leave it and down. I've never had a dog that picked up on commands so quickly. We are working on perfecting house breaking but I think she has a UTI and she's had some loose stool. I think her current accidents are related. She's goes to the vet today to hopefully get that cleared up. 

Also while working with Rikku yesterday, Luma became very interested in what we were doing. She loves food but is usually too afraid to really be taught anything. Well yesterday I was able to work with Luma on sit for the first time ever! It was so exciting! (She's a puppy mill momma).


----------



## BooneOEB

Boone is now 16 weeks and half way though his Puppy Socialization class. He is SOOOO smart and learns and retains things faster than any dog I have had, but is very easily over excited if he even thinks he will get to play with another puppy. He is like a bull in a china shop during "go play" and always the first to cause the end to it...UGH. Anyways, we have sit, and down perfect, with hand signals or voice. Doggy zen and settle have come a LONG way. Walking on the leash is boring for him, no matter how high value the treat, so that needs a ton of work still. Same with recall outside. Inside he is great though. 

LONG term goals, are CGC, Nosework, and Trick Dog titles. We will see though, it has been so long since I did training classes I forgot what they cost! With our show dogs growing up we MAYBE did a puppy class, but then all we worked on were basic things at home, and confirmation, so this is pretty new to me and I am super excited to continue training with him!


----------



## ireth0

We worked on some maintained sits this weekend and I think Luna is getting the idea. It helps that she's always been good at stays in general, so the actual behaviour isn't the difficult part for her, it's communicating that that's what I want. 

Super excited for Rally class tonight. We're doing some sort of exercise that we have to be away from our dogs, which means we get to practice down stays for extended periods, lol. Crossing fingers that it doesn't go horribly wrong.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> We worked on some maintained sits this weekend and I think Luna is getting the idea. It helps that she's always been good at stays in general, so the actual behaviour isn't the difficult part for her, it's communicating that that's what I want.
> 
> Super excited for Rally class tonight. We're doing some sort of exercise that we have to be away from our dogs, which means we get to practice down stays for extended periods, lol. Crossing fingers that it doesn't go horribly wrong.


Curious about what you are doing away from the dogs! I know people who will leave their dogs on a down stay by their chair while they walk the course, but that's a little advanced for us. I would have to pay too much attention to Watson and wouldn't be able to focus on walking the course.

What are you doing for maintained sits? Just holding sit in heel position? Or walking around them while they sit/stay?


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Curious about what you are doing away from the dogs! I know people who will leave their dogs on a down stay by their chair while they walk the course, but that's a little advanced for us. I would have to pay too much attention to Watson and wouldn't be able to focus on walking the course.
> 
> What are you doing for maintained sits? Just holding sit in heel position? Or walking around them while they sit/stay?


I'll update with the exercise after class tonight!

Right now I'm trying to generally get a heel position but not being super concerned about it. So I'm just asking for a sit and then practicing her staying in the sit and not popping up when I move away. This is brand new for her so we're just at baby steps where I move a leg to take a step away or something really minor like that. 

Just mainly trying to get her to understand the concept that sit means hold that sit and not pop up right away. Yesterday when we were practicing it seemed like she was really starting to understand vs still trying to figure out what I wanted.


----------



## elrohwen

We had another class with Hazel last night and she's still doing well. She gave a little bark/growl as one dog came in, but reoriented to me quickly. I think she's getting into a bit of a teenager stage where she is noticing other dogs more and being slightly reactive. Still way way better than Watson ever was so I think we'll work through it fine. Just signs that she's growing up.

We've become the default demo team for everything because the instructor assumes I've already trained Hazel to do these things. So that's nice, but funny when I actually haven't worked on them at all and just cross my fingers and hope she does it. 

I felt so bad for one woman in the class. She had to bring her huge pittie mix to class because her teenage daughter and husband were home sick. She hasn't done much training with him, or come to the classes, so the dog was pretending like he didn't know anything and generally dragging her around. She did a really good job though and caught on to everything quickly. I give her a lot of credit for showing up.


----------



## Laurelin

We are doing big things right now and working on play dead. In the first session I got a lured shoulder to the ground but he seems to be picking this up oddly slowly.


----------



## ireth0

I was super proud of Luna last night. She did a down stay on her mat while I bumbled around a rally course with a human partner. With other people in the room, other dogs whining and etc.

Definitely the most advanced stay we've done to date and she aced it like nobody's business. I remember watching Ranger do stuff like that in class and wishing we could do it, and now we can!


----------



## Kathyy

Down stays like that are really awesome to watch, I watch the dog honoring rather than the working team! 

Oddly I haven't been able to teach Bucky many tricks but play dead looks like it is going to be one of them. He volunteers all sorts of laying down behaviors, Head down, hip to one side or the other with or without head down. I want a backwards crawl like Sassy had but he will crawl once then start with the hips to the side.

I do need to keep clicker on me so I can work on barking on cue. Keeping food on me or me moving quick is the problem. I get plenty of barking to work with, he is mouthing off outside at the moment.

Ginger was a hoot at nosework last night. Perch work has backfired now we are starting on boxes. The box got good and squashed. Nosework makes her so happy and now I am sort of getting it I am having more fun too.

Bucky's LLW is a struggle. All my dogs got 3' then 6' then the flexi and then stay within range of whatever leash I gave them. I use the lock when needed of course but could take Max out for an hour without touching it as he would respond to verbals so well. Bucky is on 1' of leash and struggling. He's getting a full mile of running a day now next to the trike but the dog likes to MOVE.


----------



## CptJack

I'm still playing with heeling with Molly, in a very casual way. She's built up some duration and it's going well, though we haven't really done much with it outside. 

Meanwhile, she's started stopping when I do for a sit... with her paw on my foot. It has become a very ingrained part of the behavior. I should probably try and do something about it, though.

I should also try and pair this with a leash at some point :/ I tried briefly but it went horribly, I got frustrated and quit.


----------



## FaithFurMom09

I trained Charlie to speak...well i rewarded her when she did but she still doesnt understand "Speak"=bark...just Bark=treat. Which has led to when we have food it means barking. OY!


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I'm still playing with heeling with Molly, in a very casual way. She's built up some duration and it's going well, though we haven't really done much with it outside.
> 
> Meanwhile, she's started stopping when I do for a sit... with her paw on my foot. It has become a very ingrained part of the behavior. I should probably try and do something about it, though.
> 
> I should also try and pair this with a leash at some point :/ I tried briefly but it went horribly, I got frustrated and quit.


I think we need video! 

I really need to work Hazel's heel in a consistent manner. I just keep putting it off. 

We had Rally tonight and Watson's straight sits are so broken. Ugh! Need to brainstorm this one. It's definitely that he's wrapping his head to see my hand. Need to fix up my body language I think and where he is targeting.


----------



## CptJack

I'll get some video when the weather is better. The lighting in my house is okay when we're not having constant rain but right now it's been a week since I've seen the sun. Everything is dark or mud - or under water.

And also I don't want to put on real pants if I can't even leave the house. 

Gripe, gripe, gripe.


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I'll get some video when the weather is better. The lighting in my house is okay when we're not having constant rain but right now it's been a week since I've seen the sun. Everything is dark or mud - or under water.
> 
> And also I don't want to put on real pants if I can't even leave the house.
> 
> Gripe, gripe, gripe.


Hey, I take the majority of my training videos in my basement (poor light) while wearing yoga pants (not real pants). Nothing wrong with that.


----------



## Laurelin

Haha so I got a play dead with Hank but it's a ridiculous looking one. And he can't stay still at all.


----------



## elrohwen

Ugh, Perfect Puppy is no longer perfect. Seems like her recall pretty much disappeared over night. I let her out to pee off leash, and she ran off to check out something on the other side of the patio. No big deal, but when I called her she ran into the woods and did big loops for a couple minutes until I could get her to come back out (woods were too dense for me to easily follow, and she didn't get out of sight). 

No no bad dog! *sigh* I was so hoping she wouldn't turn into a teenager. 

At least if they are both off leash, Watson's recall is good now and she will pretty much always follow him so he doesn't get all of the treats. I really hope this is a minor teenage set back and she doesn't lose her recall the way Watson did. Though if she does, this time I will get her an ecollar much sooner than I did with Watson.


----------



## ireth0

This dog astounds me all the time. I remember when we first started nosework classes about a year ago. I was trying to fill out our registration forms and Luna was pulling my arm all directions and I was so flustered trying to manage her, and our bags, and attempting to write legibly. It was such a disaster. I gritted my teeth and got through it, but it was a disaster. 

Fast forward to last night in class, and I can essentially manage her with pretty minimal effort without a leash. I can ask her to wait while I pack/unpack our dog bag and she just... will. She can work essentially off leash. I leave it on just in case, but I don't need to use it to direct her or engage her. A dog in our class last night ran across the room all bouncy and exuberant and the other dogs got all riled up and barking and Luna just looked, then looked at me and never left her sit, without any cue from me. 

It's just so wow to me to think back on. We're really starting to see the fruits of our labour and it is so fantastic!


----------



## elrohwen

That's great!


----------



## elrohwen

Hazel was back to being Perfect Puppy in class last night. She gets a little excited when we arrive and a million dogs exit the building, but once we're in and she's in working mode she doesn't care about the other dogs at all. One dog is pretty reactive to dogs in his space, so the instructor puts them next to us (there were only 2 other dogs there) and he's totally fine because Hazel doesn't even glance at him. Such a change from Watson where we were always the dog on the end next to the calm dog. Haha. Next week is the last week of classes and then I have to figure out what to do with her. We'll probably just repeat this class. It works on stays (which I hate to work on by myself), it works on some heeling (which I can do in my own way at my own pace), and nothing is formal or dragged on forever.

She's still bad and wants to run zoomies in the woods. I'm torn between giving her a little more freedom and trusting that she will come back when called (which she still does except that one time), but I wish she would stay in the yard like she used to. It's too easy for her to go just a bit too far in the woods to where I can't see her, and they are dense enough that I can't really follow her either. It will be better in the winter when the leaves are gone. I need to get better about really jackpotting for recalls. She's always been so good I've taken it a bit for granted and don't always have treats on me if we're just out for a potty trip or something. But she is very food driven and I think if she got really awesome stuff for every single recall she would shape up. Or if her tennis ball suddenly appeared.


----------



## elrohwen

Reviving this thread!

I posted this over in the agility thread, but wanted to write it here too. I am so so proud of Watson and how far he's come in the past month or two of private agility lessons. Last night he did the bang game, some low level contact obstacles, one jump exercises (at 16"!), and shadow handling and he was so freaking HAPPY. Last week after working with the teeter he was worried and kind of freaked out, and wanted to leave. Last night he was excited and confident and ready for more. It's such a big deal for him to understand exactly what he needs to do and to feel confident about it. He goes from worried and flaky to intense and having fun. We might make an agility dog out of him yet.


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## TGKvr

I've decided after a fairly long hiatus to get my girl back into school! I find myself getting a little slack with her training, so it's time to ramp back up again. We took time off due to life intervention, then she was in heat, but now is a good time to resume her path toward CGC. Classes start back up at the end of this month and it's the class right before the CGC class. She is really solid in her fundamentals, so if I can only get her to CALM DOWN in the first fifteen minutes of a new social situation we'd be golden.

Oh! Also she climbed a ladder recently... up to a tree house. She loved it, and it underscores that I think we'd like to do an agility class just for fun after the CGC. I'm interested to see how she does with it.


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> I've decided after a fairly long hiatus to get my girl back into school! I find myself getting a little slack with her training, so it's time to ramp back up again. We took time off due to life intervention, then she was in heat, but now is a good time to resume her path toward CGC. Classes start back up at the end of this month and it's the class right before the CGC class. She is really solid in her fundamentals, so if I can only get her to CALM DOWN in the first fifteen minutes of a new social situation we'd be golden.
> 
> Oh! Also she climbed a ladder recently... up to a tree house. She loved it, and it underscores that I think we'd like to do an agility class just for fun after the CGC. I'm interested to see how she does with it.


Good luck with classes!


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

elrohwen said:


> Reviving this thread!
> 
> I posted this over in the agility thread, but wanted to write it here too. I am so so proud of Watson and how far he's come in the past month or two of private agility lessons. Last night he did the bang game, some low level contact obstacles, one jump exercises (at 16"!), and shadow handling and he was so freaking HAPPY. Last week after working with the teeter he was worried and kind of freaked out, and wanted to leave. Last night he was excited and confident and ready for more. It's such a big deal for him to understand exactly what he needs to do and to feel confident about it. He goes from worried and flaky to intense and having fun. We might make an agility dog out of him yet.


Happy for you and Watson! Hopefully he continues the successes!

Anyone have any barking tips I might not know about? Kairi is an incessant barker at times and I cannot seem to teach a good "quiet". I haven't taught her speak because knowing her it would be HORRIBLE due to the default love of barking. I can ignore barking, but my husband is extremely sensitive to it. I think it's time to finally get on teaching it to be better with two dogs around here.


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## Kathyy

I remove the dog from the situation and reward for calm behavior. Out of the room where looking out the window dog sees great things to bark at, in the house if barking outside and so on.

Ginger is clearly a small yappy dog. There are about a dozen of this group living on my block, lucky us. At first she was called in the house or out of the room for a cookie then she caught on and would stand outside with one eye on the door and bark. We caught on and would close the door for a few seconds then call her in the house and give her a cookie for a down or sit.

Bucky, going a different way. Due to his terrific ability to find things to play with we didn't know were dog toys and Ginger bouncing he is crated a couple times a day and when we are out or asleep, one crate in living room and one in bedroom. If he is in that state where he is just barking he gets crated with a cookie. If it is hot out and I don't want to go in the house I will leash him and reward for laying down, that shuts him up. He gets wound up and cannot stop himself so I provide a safe closed area so he can settle down. If he had a go to bed cue I'd try that but he's still in kindergarten and that is elementary school stuff.

Couple weeks ago he started barking outside when I happened to have a clicker/treats handy. How that happened when he is glued to me if have clicker/food I don't recall. I clicked. He came for the cookie a bit puzzled then back to see what was going on on the other side of the fence and barked, c/t. After that he stuck around and was making all sorts of funny sounds but I only clicked for loud barks. That was that, I couldn't put a cue on it and another session like that hasn't happened since. If I could put a cue to it I'd only reward if I cued the bark. The click stopped barking cold but he wasn't really involved yet, no squirrel in sight or anything like that.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

When I say incessant barking I mean >this< (Old video when she was still a gawdy teenager, but she still does crap like that). She barks at me to get attention, or just because she is excited. I don't really have a huge problem with her barking at things, really. Just ABOUT things to ME. Obnoxious dog is obnoxious! =P


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## TGKvr

So before we take up classes again at the end of the month I figured we'd better start getting back to work on our own again. Now we've still done some training every day, like... 5/10 minutes at a time when we go out for the bathroom, but we haven't done longer, more focused sessions in a while as we used to do daily. So yesterday I took her on our trail (we have a mile long hiking trail on our property) and we worked off leash. Now typically she's very good on-trail but has certain spots where she likes to dash off and chase leaves and lizards and such - her recall is pretty good but when we hike she tends to kind of do her own thing which normally I'm fine with. 

Anyway so yesterday we worked on pacing and heeling and wait, stay, come, all of that off leash. Things we've done before but as a solid refresher. She was GREAT. She stayed in a tight heel the entire time I asked her to, then one of the hardest things which is getting her to "wait" while *I'm* still walking ahead (where I just don't stop when saying "wait" just keep striding forward and expecting her to stay behind) she did to perfection. I'd tell her to wait, then hike on down out of sight, then call her. This is by far her favorite thing because then she runs full tilt and screeches to a halt right next to me in heel position, it's awesome. I think she was truly just so happy to be having lessons again... she's definitely a working dog and loves being asked for things! I was worried that she'd be distracted and a little out of practice but she was spot on. So proud of her, and definitely looking forward to the next class!


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## CptJack

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> When I say incessant barking I mean >this< (Old video when she was still a gawdy teenager, but she still does crap like that). She barks at me to get attention, or just because she is excited. I don't really have a huge problem with her barking at things, really. Just ABOUT things to ME. Obnoxious dog is obnoxious! =P


Yeah. That's Kylie. I have found that short term asking her to down stay will shut her up? But I've had no long term success. In large part because I am aware that I'm not consistent and reward it/give in to it by entertaining or indulging her, I guess, but also because I have a hard time caring. It's starting to get mildly embarrassing though because it's actually getting worse as she spends more and more time ramped up/excited. Last night at agility practice she pretty much plonked her butt in front of me, facing me, and yapped like that any time I wasn't actively doing something with her.


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## kdawnk

CptJack said:


> Yeah. That's Kylie. I have found that short term asking her to down stay will shut her up? ...


Sans doesn't bark at me but she whines to an annoying degree. If I tell her to do down stay she'll be concentrating on holding the position and waiting politely for a reward and stops whining. She whines throughout dog classes so I've utilized the quiet time down stays fairly frequently.


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## CptJack

Kylie is mostly barking at me because she wants to be engaged with me, really. Its' something that clicked in my head when I saw an article talking about how demotivating walking off to talk to your agility instructor when your dog wants to play can be. So having her DO something for me works. I've also been known to ask her to jump into my arms and then just hold her for quick conversations. Just anything that doesn't lead her to believe "I am ignoring you now." 

Not helpful around the house exactly, though, because she can not spend all day downing and being engaged on that level, but for some settings it really is useful just to get her to close her freaking mouth so I can hear myself think.


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## kdawnk

Down stays to quiet her also works _for Sans_ in the house because she's not as insistent and gets distracted/gives up easily.
Usually she demands my attention at specific times _ex: As soon as I come home, getting ready to leave for a walk, waiting for anything..._
If I'm ordering takeout I make her wait before I feed her until my food arrives (she can't bark at delivery guy if she's stuffing her face). The entire 45-60 minutes before the food arrives she'll stare at me and whine because she knows I'm withholding food. Down stays and practicing "leave it" can extend to quite a while when she WANTS your attention.


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## Kathyy

Too cute! I had the sound off, Bucky is peaceful after his breakfast and one doesn't want to interrupt any quiet he offers. Sassy whined and Max barked like that. We mostly just laughed at barking like he is doing in the photo but at dinner time it was really annoying and I attempted to stop it. I would freeze and if he continued I would put food back on the counter, back in the frig and would have gone and sat down again but it never went quite that far but it also didn't actually go away either. I mostly did have to at least freeze because he barked when I was fixing a meal. I never got a handle on Sassy's whining, just that it stopped sometime after we started agility.

New development on the outside barking front. He will now come for a cookie. I wrote how G got trained out of incessant barking and now he knows he was missing out???? 

I think crating works because it is easier to ignore dog properly. When dog is in front of you mouthing off you look at dog which amps dog up to bark more. I'd love to have a good go to mat like Sassy and Max had but for some reason it doesn't seem right for these two or more likely this two and me. Go to mat involves a lot of body pressure which might translate to eye contact which might translate to keep on barking.

Also on the Bucky front, night time crating. He willingly went in and settled for 2 months. Last week he started grumbling for a few minutes after crating that it wasn't fair that SHE got to be on my bed and not him. So I had him out in the closed off bedroom between morning potty and breakfast for a couple days and last night he convinced me to try a whole night. Not a restful night. He wasn't exploring looking for mischief but he sure tried out a lot of different places to sleep! He went in and out of the crate, in and out of the dog bed and half a dozen places on my bed and so on. He didn't find 'toys' on his own, he didn't bark. He transferred his door scratch from crate door to bedroom door to let me know he needed to go outside, that was nice.

Here's Max mouthing off. Since he was a fearful shut off dog I didn't much mind this every once in a while but I was the only one who appreciated that being bratty was not really a bad thing in his case.


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## CptJack

Molly's 'leave it' is getting pretty freaking solid.


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## elrohwen

I need to do that with Watson. The few times I've tried he tips his head back to see what I'm doing with the food/toy/whatever item. I need to do it systematically instead of just going for it.

Also, her expression is adorable.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I need to do that with Watson. The few times I've tried he tips his head back to see what I'm doing with the food/toy/whatever item. I need to do it systematically instead of just going for it.


Yeah, Kylie does the head tilt back thing, but I haven't been very deliberate with her, either. Molly I found just showing it to her and saying leave it would let me get it where I wanted without her contorting herself to follow it.


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## elrohwen

As part of the conformation training class I'm doing with FDSA, you teach the dog to let you hold a treat in your closed fist and then move the hand all over their body. Really just It's Yer Choice but with the increased difficulty of moving your hand around and touching the dog. You need to touch and position your dog and you might need to do it with bait in your hand and you can't have the dog contorting all over. Seems like the perfect way to teach a dog to let you put stuff on them


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## ireth0

Bit of a rant on the cat/dog issues.

So we're at a pretty good place now, except the one cat, Shiloh. She is just so scared and I just don't know how to help her. She will -not- swat Luna and it has to get really extreme before she'll even hiss. She is just scared and runs, she wont even jump up to a height out of reach. Luna knows this and thinks chasing her is a fun game. By the time I tell her to leave it either A) the cat is already beyond reach (we have gates set up) or B) she is already overstimulated (most likely the cat has been cornered) and I have to physically remove her. She has never hurt or tried to hurt either cat, she just thinks they're a fun thing to play with and they don't appreciate that. 

It's hard to even do CCing with her because our other cat is much more confident and would just shove her out of the way to get any food being offered. And if we put the other cat in a separate room Shiloh would probably find that very weird/concerning and be freaked out. And she isn't very food motivated to begin with. 

The other day I let Luna clean out leftovers in the cat food bowls and Shiloh found that so offensive that she didn't eat for the whole day until the following evening when I washed the bowls out with dish soap. 

She's coming around... slowly... it's like 1 step forward and 3 steps back though. I just feel bad that she's so stressed and want to just make her feel better. 

And then there are days I just get so frustrated with it I just want to take the gates down and let her figure it out, lol.


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## Canyx

I teach a "don't move." Really easy in theory, somewhat slow to build up on... It is just rewarding for zero body movement, a second at first and building up from there. It comes in handy for fun things like if he is on his back or chin resting and I want to grab my camera, I can have him hold it instead of breaking the pose. It comes in handy for not-fun things like if I want him to stay still while I check on a body part. It doesn't work for fast motion behaviors, so I can't have him freeze while touching his nose. But for balancing objects and food on his face, it's been helpful!


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## BooneOEB

Boone graduated Puppy Kindergarden last night! It was bittersweet! He has done really well, but I REALLY need to work on leash walking and heeling before our next class starts up at the end of the month. The trainer for the next class is a no-nonsense type of guy from what I hear and the pulling is getting to be an issue. Of course at home we do well, but if he gets nervous, or excited, he is a pulling mess. We live on a farm, so don't see cars or traffic other than if we are going to classes or shopping (Petco/Petsmart) and Boone freaks. I need to find a good public low traffic area where we can get far back enough from the road to practice I guess....any tips?


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## ireth0

My tip would be find a different class where the instructor is willing to work with what your dog needs vs trying to make them behave in a way they aren't ready for.


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## elrohwen

If he just graduated puppy K, then he's still a baby and I would keep your expectations low. Being able to walk on a loose leash at home and in familiar places is a good start! And the whole point of classes is to get help with things you need help on. There will probably be a portion of class where you work on LLW and you can get the instructor's help then.

As far as low traffic areas, big parking lots are nice. Like in front of a grocery store, as long as you can stay far enough away to minimize the distractions.


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## BooneOEB

Thanks! I will have to try to make it to the park this weekend. Now that it is cooling off it shouldn't be too crazy and should be good! I am shocked at how well he had progressed so far, and I doubt the trainer's expectations are too high being that it is a level one obedience class specifically for older puppies and recently rescued shelter dogs with no formal training. I don't think the trainer will be unwilling at all to help/work with him, and the only lower class is the one we just finished, so another class isn't really the issue, it is more getting him to and from class and socializing him safely since around here there aren't many low traffic areas that I could be far enough from the traffic that he won't be completely overwhelmed. Also, weighing in at 36lbs at 16 weeks, not sure how much more of it my hands can take LOL!


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## CptJack

There are some locations I really need to get Molly used to working in. There are places where she really just expects to be going to cut up and goof off and seems to have decided that in those location listening to me is optional. So, that's going to be fun.

But about the same kind of process you're looking at, only a year later


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## ireth0

BooneOEB said:


> The trainer for the next class is a no-nonsense type of guy from what I hear and the pulling is getting to be an issue.


This is the bit that concerned me. 

If you're taking a beginner level class I can't imagine how pulling would be an issue, and I'd be concerned how a 'no nonsense' type of trainer would want to handle that if they felt it was.


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## elrohwen

The place I go has some trainers I would consider "no nonsense". But they are positive trainers and extremely good with the dogs. Not sure how to explain it ... but they just expect people to be on the ball I guess.

Maybe completely unlike the trainer that BooneOEB is talking about, but I've worked with a lot of no nonsense trainers and they were fine. I just now that they expect more out of me.


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## BooneOEB

Yes, he is known as no-nonsense, but awesome at reading dogs. Basically, he is hard on the handlers, not the dogs. It is all positive reinforcement training. This is part of the blurb on his about me page...."I find no dogs doing things wrong in my class and have not run into a bad dog in many years- they are just reacting to what the leash has them attached to. Hopefully that attachment is trying their best to have fun and build a relationship with their dog."


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## ireth0

Ah okay, that's not so bad then, so long as you can deal well with that kind of feedback.

I know a local trainer like that. Very matter-of-fact about telling you when you're doing something wrong. He doesn't make any attempt to say it nicely or try not to hurt your feelings, lol. He is a good trainer, but only if you can handle that kind of approach. I could easily see how some people would be turned off by it.


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## BooneOEB

CptJack said:


> There are some locations I really need to get Molly used to working in. There are places where she really just expects to be going to cut up and goof off and seems to have decided that in those location listening to me is optional. So, that's going to be fun.
> 
> But about the same kind of process you're looking at, only a year later


Thanks! That gives me some hope!!!  Last night we were doing recall exercises and Boone thought every "come" was for him....He got SUPER bouncy and excited, and I ended up with a blister. LOL! Outside though, it is all pulling away from things as he is scared of traffic. My biggest fear is he will break a leash/collar or get loose. Unless I can position myself REALLY far from traffic, there is no treat high value enough to keep his attention.


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## BooneOEB

ireth0 said:


> Ah okay, that's not so bad then, so long as you can deal well with that kind of feedback.
> 
> I know a local trainer like that. Very matter-of-fact about telling you when you're doing something wrong. He doesn't make any attempt to say it nicely or try not to hurt your feelings, lol. He is a good trainer, but only if you can handle that kind of approach. I could easily see how some people would be turned off by it.


Yup! That is totally the impression I have gotten of him, guess I should have worded it better. I have a pretty tough skin from some very rough around the edges horse trainers growing up, but apparently the running joke between the trainers is to ask him if he made anyone cry at class LOL! Eek! I am excited, though just hoping I can set both myself and Boone up for success so we can get the most out of the class.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Ah okay, that's not so bad then, so long as you can deal well with that kind of feedback.
> 
> I know a local trainer like that. Very matter-of-fact about telling you when you're doing something wrong. He doesn't make any attempt to say it nicely or try not to hurt your feelings, lol. He is a good trainer, but only if you can handle that kind of approach. I could easily see how some people would be turned off by it.


I can be overly sensitive and sometimes I've been a bit hurt by trainers like this, especially when I was starting out. Not that they were mean, but I can take criticism too hard. But now that I know them better I really like them. I'm totally ok now with someone saying "you're doing that totally wrong, let me show you" rather than being super nice about everything. Not that I don't like the super nice trainers too. They balance each other out. 

And with the no nonsense trainers, it feels so great when they give you a compliment because you know they mean it.


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## TGKvr

Try some local busy parks where there are some nice trails and exposure to people. We have a battlefield close by that has a lot of trails and most people tend to ride bikes or hike along the main roads, so we get a good mix of quiet trail time with busier traffic and people time. Sometimes we also drive into the city (I use that term loosely) to walk around the public streets which really helps because she HAS to ignore most of the people in that type of scenario.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack said:


> Yeah. That's Kylie. I have found that short term asking her to down stay will shut her up? But I've had no long term success. In large part because I am aware that I'm not consistent and reward it/give in to it by entertaining or indulging her, I guess, but also because I have a hard time caring. It's starting to get mildly embarrassing though because it's actually getting worse as she spends more and more time ramped up/excited. Last night at agility practice she pretty much plonked her butt in front of me, facing me, and yapped like that any time I wasn't actively doing something with her.


When I tell her "quiet" she sometimes defaults to down because I have used that so much. Unfortunately she has decided to DOWN and then BARK at me some more. Pain in my butt, dog! It really doesn't bother me.. just my husband because my house friggin' echoes. I've been the same way.. somewhat inconsistent and she's so darn cute I can't help but sometimes talk to her while she's doing it.. ooops.


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## Laurelin

We had such a good fun run today. Not the agility stuff so much but getting him working in a strange ring happily! And around one of his biggest fears historically (giant ceiling fans). 

Grading it by agility run it was a failure but some good stuff happened. Good teamwork and he left the ring absolutely happy. I also want to pay myself on the back for ending it on a good note and reading him well. 

As Denise says 'no begging!'


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> We had such a good fun run today. Not the agility stuff so much but getting him working in a strange ring happily! And around one of his biggest fears historically (giant ceiling fans).
> 
> Grading it by agility run it was a failure but some good stuff happened. Good teamwork and he left the ring absolutely happy. I also want to pay myself on the back for ending it on a good note and reading him well.
> 
> As Denise says 'no begging!'


That's awesome! Go Hank! 

He has the agility skills, so I think once you guys get over the environmental/no rewards stuff, it's all going to come together for him and he'll be awesome.


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## elrohwen

Ugh, Hazel has just become so excited/reactive towards dogs on walks. In classes and stuff she's perfect so I don't think she's reactive by temperament. She's just decided that dogs on the rail trail are overwhelmingly exciting and she has to squeak and spin and flip out. She's started to pay much less attention to passing people but has gotten more excited about dogs. Hopefully it's a phase.


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## sassafras

I am kind of falling in love with disc. It helps that Toast has decided discs are the ultimately highest value reward on the planet. 

He's too young/immature to do any fancy vaults, flips, etc yet so I'm working on simple tricks on the flat where he ends up facing the same way I'm facing (so I can reward with a roller or easy low catch without tempting him to flip backwards or jump high). So far we have scoot backwards through my legs, spin, do left and right finishes to heel, stay in heel as I spin left or right, and we're starting with backing up away from me while I stay stationary. I think I will start on him circling around me starting and ending in heel position next.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated. We're having a lot of fun, it's funny because some of the stuff is basically OB skills even though I don't generally enjoy OB.


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## elrohwen

Go Toast! I feel like he would love to do anything involving running and jumping. 

I spoke too soon about Hazel's teenage reactivity. Apparently she's fine. Lol. We went out today and at the first dog she did flip out. Then Watson started barking at her and I was like "crap! We can't walk them together because she's going to ruin years of work with him!" Then we ended up passing other dogs about 6 times (which never happens) and she was fine? By the third dog she was in heel position staring up at me with almost no cues or anything. I guess she just needed more exposure. We've walked her on the rail trail much less than Watson and we rarely see more than 1 dog. Once I showed her what I wanted her to do instead of flip out, she was like "oh, ok, I can do that". She's a funny one. 

Also Watson was perfect and ignored every dog even a black GSD. He's such a good boy.


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## kdawnk

Here's a 17 second video showing my (joking) How to tell if your dog is toy motivated or food motivated video. We're working on getting her to catch things other than her plain. Boring. Kibble. 





Also working on getting her to open and close doors. She's got the opening perfect via pushing, but pulling is taking longer.


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## Nissa M

Hey everyone. Writing with a little update about what's been happing with Pai and about our latest adventure with a private trainer. It might be a little long, as I'm trying to work it all out still myself – stick with me if you can.

For the past couple of weeks I've been thinking about what exactly I want to say, or ask, in relation to how things have been going with Pai. I posted earlier today about doing some jogging as exercise for us both while we implement a new training plan and some of you have expressed interest in learning more about what it is we're up to in the effort to help Pai overcome some of his naughtiness (and to help me be a better human to him). SO here goes.

What are our issues? Some of them are normal puppy issues, as some of you have suggested, like stealing things, barking at the cat, blowing off commands, etc. Some of them have me concerned he has an underlying anxiety (though our previous trainer called it over excitement), like being unable to settle places other than at home, and getting incredibly incredibly worked up when greeting some people (crying out, flipping out, etc). But others are harder, specifically around leash frustration and also jumping (not just jumping up – I mean like body slamming) on greetings. For these issues, I think on top of the other more minor challenges I’ve been trying to work on, I was really feeling the weight of having to manage him all the time everywhere just so he didn’t do damage to someone or something – which really wasn’t working for us at all. The last incident of muzzle punching was it for me. We did our usual greeting protocol (I feed treats while he is offering a sit, release him to say hi which involves a lot of wiggling and attempts to get AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE, then call him back and give treats again before he gets overly worked up (which he obviously is already, but he ALWAYS is when anyone new even looks at him). Anyway, he was sitting next to me, I was feeding treats for sitting like a good dog and looking NOT at him but at her when suddenly he launched at her face and split her lip. I was almost in tears. And with my old way of responding – which was really to do not much at all - I had very little recourse. To top it off, after that, he started alligator rolling when I’d restrained him with the leash (he was on a harness) to attend to her and almost knocked her over. It was bonkers. A month or so ago he got his paws in the face of our dog walker, after weeks of decent greetings, and broke her glasses. There have been other incidents of almost knocking people down while thrashing around at the end of his leash in protest, usually to not being allowed to meet them IMMEDIATELY. 

Until recently I was convinced that if I did everything in my power to set my dog up for success – by preventing him from engaging in unwanted behaviours through rigorous management and continuously reinforcing good behaviours, he’d be a great dog. And maybe if I were more skilled this would have worked? I was sure that if I ever said “no” to my dog I was squashing his creativity and preventing him from learning how to make good choices on his own. He never got told “no” and I was really hard on myself when he would misbehave believing it was my fault for not managing him better (in hindsight sometimes it was, and other times he was actually just a pushy jerk). He’s pretty awesome with basic obedience, Rally, basic Agility. He can ignore dogs and people when ‘working’. However, even by the 6th round of classes he couldn’t make eye contact with either of the trainers when we first arrived to class without flipping his lid- I had to lure him past them with a block 2 year old aged cheddar in front of his nose. What we were doing there wasn’t translating to home and I really didn’t have the skill to figure out it out on my own (though I did try). 

Fastforward to now- our current trainer is also taking the approach of preventing him from engaging in unwanted behaviours, but is asking me to engage him differently than I did previously; still reward what is good and prioritize prevention and management, but also to apply consequences when he does not do as I ask. I think she would say it's 'balanced' training, though she doesn't identify as this. The overall premise to this approach, as I understand it, is that Pai is a working dog and as such needs to be put to work. (this is in contrast to my approach of managing with leashes and baby gates but allowing him to exist in this hyperactive headspace where he couldn’t really listen or take treats or anything while engaging in rude behaviour without any consequence) What she’s offering is to show me tools to use to help communicate better with Pai with regards to what is acceptable and what is not acceptable on a day to day basis. The plan is NOT to do this forever, but for six weeks to start with the plan to introduce more freedoms over time and assess whether he can cope. She does use corrections, and, for example, has asked that I correct Pai when he bites the leash with a firm "no" (not a pleasant 'nope!' as we're using sort of as a NRM) and pulling it sharply from is mouth. Luckily he's not done it since she gave me this instruction.

What does this look like? The foundation is called pressure training (are you guys familiar with this?). The LLW part at least is kind of like silky leash. Anyway, my homework is to keep Pai with me in the house on a lead using a combination heeling (LLWing, not strict in terms of placement but no pulling), place and sit-and-maintains as I go about my daily business – ranging from 5 seconds to 15 minutes. Place we’re being asked to hold it longer, up to 3 hours. This has been graded since our initial session, btw. The strategy for LLWing is that when Pai gets ahead or tries to pull, I turn and move away placing pressure on his leash and when he gives in there is a release and he gets a ‘good dog’. For sits you ask for the sit and if he attempts to break it you put pressure on the collar and say ‘nope’ in a friendly tone until he returns to the sit. He receives food reinforcement for the sit. For the place he is expected to stay on the place once the command is given until he is released. Same with the sit, if he attempts to leave the place (it’s on a Pet Cot) pressure is applied to the leash and you say ‘nope’ until he returns – then the pressure is released and he gets another ‘good boy’ with intermittent food reinforcement on the place. And don’t get me wrong – it is not entirely like a bootcamp! (someone said this?) We also release from all of these activities to play tug, fetch, do tricks in the yard etc. However, if I cannot engage with him, or put him to ‘work’, he’s in the kitchen with a baby gate – no longer loose to cause trouble. Anyway, now that we’re a few weeks in we’ve started to take all of these exercises out into the community – so I repeat all this when we’re out and about. Right now we’re still in fairly quiet places, but by next week I think we’ll be going to parks, shops, etc. I hope. The criteria has been increased slowly and he seems to be coping pretty well.

In reply to elrohwen’s comment that this routine sounds like it requires a lot of self discipline – it does I guess, but actually it’s getting much easier. And I think he’s enjoying it more too? Hard to say, but he seems a lot calmer for sure, both inside and outside of the house. Initially I had serious dread – I work from home a lot of the time, but am still expected to put in a full day of work. But having put it into practice now it’s really not so bad. Management up until now has seen me spend endless amounts of energy trying to entertain Pai to keep him out of trouble. I’ve been all mixed up. I have been working harder than him and it’s taken a lot out of me. I think what she’s aiming for here is to even it out a bit. 

Wow this is a long reflection. Anyway, I don’t really know where this fits in terms of training approaches and I am still trying to figure out whether I’m 100% comfortable with it. It’s definitely not force free, which is what I’d committed to when I set out on this journey with Pai. It does, however, feel like it makes sense for both of us right now and that I finally have … permission? … to let him know when he’s doing something I don’t like. I think that’s been the biggest revelation. I’m trying to be as mindful as possible as we move through this and I do feel comfortable standing up for us if something is suggested that I’m not comfortable with. For now, though, it feels okay.

Welcome your thoughts.


----------



## elrohwen

Thanks for the update! I do think it takes a lot of discipline to live with a dog like that (where you are constantly "on"), and it's good that you get some breaks where you don't have to focus on him. I also commend you for actually sticking with it, because I find stuff like that really hard. 

Reading through the stuff she's having you do, I think it's a good plan. Sounds like the heart of it is teaching him to settle, and over stimulated young dogs need to learn that. I do a lot of the same things with Watson, actually, including the leash pressure stuff. For example, in classes when we're not working, I use leash pressure to put him in a down and he's expected to stay there. I will say "down" the first time, but after that if he gets up I just use the leash to put him back down. And when he was wild in the house I would tether him to me on a short leash and expect him to settle on a mat. It's not force free, but something I've learned from working with Watson is that sometimes you need to be more clear on what is or is not acceptable. If gentle force like putting him back in a down is what it takes, I'm ok with that. It's really more about out stubborning the dog sometimes, and that's really hard with a dog who is very persistent in trying to get what they want. Watson is very persistent, and sometimes it's exhausting to get into that battle of wills (no, you really will lie down now) but letting him win and do what he wants doesn't solve anything. Watson doesn't have the same greeting issues that Pai does, but he has similar over stimulation problems (more around dogs and furry critters) so I've struggled with a lot of these same things and it sounds like you're on a good track now!


----------



## Nissa M

Thanks. The future looks a little friendlier with some different options available. And it's not more attention I'm giving him actually, it's just differently and more mindfully applied. In spite of my attempts to 'manage' him up until now, I felt like I was always reacting - and getting frustrated as a result. This feels a little more proactive. It also gives me way more opportunity to reward him for doing a good job, because he is doing a good job. And I like that. Like right now I'm working (ha) at my desk and he's on his cot snoozing away. I'm not paying any attention but I have asked him to be there for now and he's okay with that. He's an exceptionally sweet dog and I think will be a great dog one day. In fact, once he learns how to be more reasonable with people he'll probably have a much nicer time meeting them, saying hello and getting petted - which is just bliss for him.

I'm stuck on the leash biting though. I had a thought to get around that I'd wipe some wintergreen oil on the leash as a kind of gentler aversive. Also, I have yet to apply any of this to greetings. My thought is we'll do some version of sit-and-maintian or place work for greeting, with a combination of leash pressure and removal of the reward (person). I think we're doing this on Sat so I'll let you know how it goes.


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## elrohwen

A new round of obedience classes started for Hazel last night! We're repeating "Better than Basic" because the CGC class didn't fill and there aren't really any other options that fit where she is right now. I'm kind of unfocused with her obedience, and I've been focusing much more on agility foundations than heeling, but she's not doing too bad. I got some pretty heeling last night in class - very prancy! Though she does get tired and burnt out faster than I would expect so I need to watch that and quit before she gets flat. Or I need to work on introducing a toy. She's getting a little more wild and unfocused in general (yay teenager brain) so I'm mostly trying to keep her engaged and focused around the other dogs. Overall she's still more focused than Watson is and he's 3 years old, so I'll be pretty pleased if this is as bad as her teenage phase gets (that might be optimistic)

The class consists of two little white dogs (both bichons I think?). One is nervous and reactive so the owner is mostly working on that. There are two white boxers, siblings owned by a mother-daughter pair. Maybe it's just me, but I find the all white boxers to be kind of weird looking. Or maybe it's something about their conformation that's throwing me off? Then there's a cute black lab, and a black pittie puppy who has been in classes with us since puppyK. I love checking out all of the new dogs. Hazel starts a group agility class on Saturday so we'll have another new group of dogs to check out.


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## ireth0

I tend to find all white dogs strange in general, but particularly when they're short haired because you can see the pink around their nose/eyes/etc so much. Maybe it's just white faces/heads that bother me, I dunno. 

A lady with a Brittany was joking with us at the park the other day that her dog being mainly white of course loved the muddy areas of the park. I replied that our dog already looked muddy by default so there was no loss there, lol. SDRRanger's dog got muddy at the beach earlier this year (all black coat) and in the pictures he looked brindle like Luna, hahaha.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I tend to find all white dogs strange in general, but particularly when they're short haired because you can see the pink around their nose/eyes/etc so much. Maybe it's just white faces/heads that bother me, I dunno.


Yeah, I think what's what it is. There is so much pink around their eyes and face and it's kind of weird. The female also walks with a roached back and I don't know if it's a boxer thing to move like that, or if it's something else, but it's just kind of weird. She's shy so I think that's her way of moving in a timid way, but it's weird.



> A lady with a Brittany was joking with us at the park the other day that her dog being mainly white of course loved the muddy areas of the park. I replied that our dog already looked muddy by default so there was no loss there, lol. SDRRanger's dog got muddy at the beach earlier this year (all black coat) and in the pictures he looked brindle like Luna, hahaha.


I've seen Watson go chest deep in black mud, and once he's dry he looks like new. Self cleaning! Haha. That's funny that Ranger looked brindle after playing in the mud. Instead of dirty he just looks like a different color.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I think what's what it is. There is so much pink around their eyes and face and it's kind of weird. The female also walks with a roached back and I don't know if it's a boxer thing to move like that, or if it's something else, but it's just kind of weird. She's shy so I think that's her way of moving in a timid way, but it's weird.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen Watson go chest deep in black mud, and once he's dry he looks like new. Self cleaning! Haha. That's funny that Ranger looked brindle after playing in the mud. Instead of dirty he just looks like a different color.


I don't think it's a boxer thing. At least the ones I've seen don't move like that. 

Luna is kind of self cleaning too, although since she doesn't like being wet she doesn't have a tendency to get into dirty situations which I'm sure helps. She has that top coat where water/dirt/whatever just doesn't stick so normally just a wet wipe and you're good to go again. We've never had to bathe her because she was dirty, lol.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I don't think it's a boxer thing. At least the ones I've seen don't move like that.
> 
> Luna is kind of self cleaning too, although since she doesn't like being wet she doesn't have a tendency to get into dirty situations which I'm sure helps. She has that top coat where water/dirt/whatever just doesn't stick so normally just a wet wipe and you're good to go again. We've never had to bathe her because she was dirty, lol.


Mine don't get "dirty" really. Once they dry the mud falls off. But Watson does pee on his belly feathers which is gross. We wipe him down with waterless shampoo when he comes inside, but eventually it builds up and he needs a bath, or at least a good rinse.


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## CptJack

Most of my dogs are self-cleaning in that mud and muck dries and brushes out. Except Thud. Thud is a dirt sponge.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Have I mentioned Ember finally mostly gives up her frisbee now? Sometimes it requires us to tell her "down" and "wait" so that she doesn't dive after it. It was definitely over stimulation.. she wanted us to throw it but she didn't want us to take it. It is much, much easier to get back now and mostly took a whole heck of a lot of walking away/patience.


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## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Have I mentioned Ember finally mostly gives up her frisbee now? Sometimes it requires us to tell her "down" and "wait" so that she doesn't dive after it. It was definitely over stimulation.. she wanted us to throw it but she didn't want us to take it. It is much, much easier to get back now and mostly took a whole heck of a lot of walking away/patience.


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## ireth0

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Have I mentioned Ember finally mostly gives up her frisbee now? Sometimes it requires us to tell her "down" and "wait" so that she doesn't dive after it. It was definitely over stimulation.. she wanted us to throw it but she didn't want us to take it. It is much, much easier to get back now and mostly took a whole heck of a lot of walking away/patience.


Go Ember!

That reminded me. Luna did her best fetch ever at the park this weekend and I have no idea why she was suddenly all about doing it properly, lol. We've been working on it kind of half heartedly off and on since we've had her, but she's never seemed that interested and always just wanted to take the ball off somewhere and chew on it rather than bring it back again. After 3-5 throws she was generally always pretty much over it. 

We were trading the ball for treats or another ball depending on what we had available at the time, but it never seemed like we were making much progress. Like she didn't find the game inherently fun enough to return the ball to play again. 

I dunno what it was, but she was all about it this weekend. She was super into the ball, was running in earnest to get it, and brought it back every time at least within a couple feet of us.

I dunno if it was the ball being more interesting (it was just a random ball we found at the park- maybe smelled interesting or something), the weather (it was pretty chilly so maybe she had more energy), the terrain (it was trailed woods vs flat field, maybe she found that more interesting), or maybe all the prior training just clicked randomly all of a sudden.

Edit: We were also perpetually moving walking the trails vs standing still in an open field, maybe she felt more compelled to catch up/keep up.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

elrohwen said:


>


Yes! This is her exactly!


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## sassafras

No take only throw is one of the most brilliant strips in the history of comics.


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## elrohwen

I'm so so proud of Watson in our private agility lessons. Last night the instructor said we could try a beginner group class if we wanted, but I want to keep him in private lessons for a while. He's making so much progress every week, while in group classes he was back tracking. He really needs the hand holding and step by step slow training on each thing, and in classes there is pressure to move on to the next thing and keep up with the class. Plus the private lessons are ridiculously cheap for a full hour of instruction.

Last night we started putting together little sequences. He's done this before, but doing it there with different jumps was just different for him and he really struggled at first. It took us 15 minutes to go from jumping one jump to a line of 3, but then he seemed to get it. No idea why he spent so long going around the jumps when we increased from 1 to 2, but once I was finally able to show him to take to the jumps in front of him he progressed quickly. It's funny to watch him work through things. He takes zero risks and doesn't put himself out there to fail at all. And on a new jump in a new location he may weave back and forth, obviously thinking "I'm going to jump it! No! I'm going to go around! Ok, I think I'll jump!" But once you show him exactly what you want he gets really happy and excited about doing it and is pretty consistent. I think if we can get to the point where he's comfortable on all obstacles and doing little sequences, we'll probably be ready for a class again. We can start at beginner and work through all of the stuff again around dogs, but at a faster pace. I've known this for a while, but I think he's a dog who just really cannot learn anything during group classes. He has to know the material going in, or else he gets completely overwhelmed and starts to shut down. Which is hard since I'm a complete novice and didn't know how to teach him most of this stuff without going to a class. Haha.

Hazel is ridiculous. She is just full speed ahead on everything all the time. She's totally going to be that dog who zooms off around course taking random obstacles going "WHEEE!!!" The exact opposite of Watson who is careful to the point of not doing any of the obstacles.


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## kdawnk

https://instagram.com/p/9FOZ4QSzlW/
She can now pull and push open a door with significant encouragement! 
She opened it like 10 times yesterday! But it was still very hit and miss, I love how dogs think though! I'm not very good (at all) at shaping behaviours, but I gave it a try with pulling open the door.
She doesn't/didn't know any of the commands to do the process because she's 0% toy motivated so she doesn't like playing with toys unless she's ripping them apart.

Opening by pushing was easy to teach. I just sat in the room, with her outside, made her sit and said "Open!" in her "Come!" tone and she scratched it at first and then now she just gently nudges it open with her nose which I prefer_ (save the paint!). _
Opening by pulling, I tied the sock around the door with a hair-tie. I point to the sock and encouraged her to "Take it!" which she VAGUELY knows the idea of. So she put her mouth on it (she loves socks), and I treated and celebrated. Then the celebrations got more brief until she actually closed her mouth around the sock *treats celebration!*. Then she had to lightly tug in order to get a celebration. Now she's at the stage that she has to pull hard enough to open the door a little, so I switched the "Take it!" cue to "Open it!" in the same tone. Soon it'll be all the way open before she gets a treat.

This is really good for her because in general she's kind of scared of doors and the sounds they make (her tail has been bumped by a door one too many times for her to trust them) so teaching her the process has been kind of cathartic to her not being afraid of them as much.

The hard part is going to be closing it now. She'll be able to pull it closed no problem, but pushing it closed... I'm not sure. The thing that motivated her to push it open is that I was in the room and so were the treats. Teaching her to push it closed I don't really know how to do. Maybe I'm just not thinking of it right though...


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## elrohwen

The sock on the door is a brilliant way to get her interested in pulling on it!

For pushing it closed, I would teach a nose touch on a post-it note, then put the post-it on the door where you want her to push.


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## kdawnk

elrohwen said:


> The sock on the door is a brilliant way to get her interested in pulling on it!
> 
> For pushing it closed, I would teach a nose touch on a post-it note, then put the post-it on the door where you want her to push.


Thanks! I know she likes to take socks more than the washing machine does so I thought that'd be the easiest thing to get her to grab. Also an easy thing to put on a door!

I'll try the stick note idea she has a vague concept of "touch" so hopefully her brain is on the ball like it has been and she guesses right to help me out haha!


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## elrohwen

kdawnk said:


> Thanks! I know she likes to take socks more than the washing machine does so I thought that'd be the easiest thing to get her to grab. Also an easy thing to put on a door!
> 
> I'll try the stick note idea she has a vague concept of "touch" so hopefully her brain is on the ball like it has been and she guesses right to help me out haha!


Can she do a hand touch? You can start doing that, then put the sticky note on your palm, then kind of move it off of your palm a little bit at a time until it's mostly off of your hand and she's touching it instead of your palm. Then transfer to the door.


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## kdawnk

elrohwen said:


> Can she do a hand touch? You can start doing that, then put the sticky note on your palm, then kind of move it off of your palm a little bit at a time until it's mostly off of your hand and she's touching it instead of your palm. Then transfer to the door.


She can do it, but I don't think she knows what the word _touch_ means without the gesture.
She learns words _very_ slowly, but follows tone and gestures much better.
So it should work by me holding the note and encouraging her to touch it, potentially in the room next to the door so it's an easy transition to going out of my hand and then immediately onto the door haha.

Teaching her to push the door open without being able to push it closed is getting kind of awkward with our bathroom door that can't close all the way. Now that she knows she just busts through the door and stands in the doorway if - god forbid - I didn't invite her in with me initially.

Also another unrelated question. How do I get her to spin without luring/wide gesturing her every time? I do a large cauldron stirring movement with my arm over her head to get her to do the spin, but I wanted to just transition it to saying the word and gesturing to the right or left for whatever way I want.
She'll spin enthusiastically with the big gesture, but if I do a smaller gesture she doesn't get it, and if I take the gesture out she just tries other movements hoping she'll get it right, but she never spins on her own.


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## elrohwen

kdawnk said:


> Also another unrelated question. How do I get her to spin without luring/wide gesturing her every time? I do a large cauldron stirring movement with my arm over her head to get her to do the spin, but I wanted to just transition it to saying the word and gesturing to the right or left for whatever way I want.
> She'll spin enthusiastically with the big gesture, but if I do a smaller gesture she doesn't get it, and if I take the gesture out she just tries other movements hoping she'll get it right, but she never spins on her own.


I don't know any brilliant trick - I just make the movements smaller until I'm making a flick with my hand. Maybe you're just trying to move too fast? Make the gesture just slightly smaller where she'll still do it, and do that for a while. Then make it just slightly smaller again.


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## ireth0

Yea spin was really difficult for us. You just have to go really gradually.


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## elrohwen

One thing I did with my rabbit, is I lured him around with a treat and gradually reduced how far I lured. So at first it was the whole way, then it was 3/4 of the way and he had to finish the turn himself. Then I lured halfway and it was less obvious to him, but he figured out to finish the whole turn. Then I lured 1/4 of the way and it was even less obvious, and he did make mistakes and turned back the way he had come, but it didn't take long for him to think it through and finish out the spin. That helped him become independent of the lure and now he'll offer a spin without any gesture at all (or vocal cue, he just kind of does it any time you have treats LOL)


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> now he'll offer a spin without any gesture at all (or vocal cue, he just kind of does it any time you have treats LOL)


Um... I'm pretty sure we need video evidence of this!


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Um... I'm pretty sure we need video evidence of this!


Hmm, I thought I had this on video, but I can't find it on FB or YouTube. I might have one saved to my computer, or I get make one.

I tried to get it on verbal cue, but I'm 90% sure he's deaf. Either that or his little bunny brain just doesn't understand that words actually mean something. So he just does it whenever he thinks it might get him a treat. lol


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs

elrohwen said:


> I'm so so proud of Watson in our private agility lessons. Last night the instructor said we could try a beginner group class if we wanted, but I want to keep him in private lessons for a while. He's making so much progress every week, while in group classes he was back tracking. He really needs the hand holding and step by step slow training on each thing, and in classes there is pressure to move on to the next thing and keep up with the class. Plus the private lessons are ridiculously cheap for a full hour of instruction.
> 
> Last night we started putting together little sequences. He's done this before, but doing it there with different jumps was just different for him and he really struggled at first. It took us 15 minutes to go from jumping one jump to a line of 3, but then he seemed to get it. No idea why he spent so long going around the jumps when we increased from 1 to 2, but once I was finally able to show him to take to the jumps in front of him he progressed quickly. It's funny to watch him work through things. He takes zero risks and doesn't put himself out there to fail at all. And on a new jump in a new location he may weave back and forth, obviously thinking "I'm going to jump it! No! I'm going to go around! Ok, I think I'll jump!" But once you show him exactly what you want he gets really happy and excited about doing it and is pretty consistent. I think if we can get to the point where he's comfortable on all obstacles and doing little sequences, we'll probably be ready for a class again. We can start at beginner and work through all of the stuff again around dogs, but at a faster pace. I've known this for a while, but I think he's a dog who just really cannot learn anything during group classes. He has to know the material going in, or else he gets completely overwhelmed and starts to shut down. Which is hard since I'm a complete novice and didn't know how to teach him most of this stuff without going to a class. Haha.
> 
> Hazel is ridiculous. She is just full speed ahead on everything all the time. She's totally going to be that dog who zooms off around course taking random obstacles going "WHEEE!!!" The exact opposite of Watson who is careful to the point of not doing any of the obstacles.


So happy for you and Watson. That is so great that he is improving!! And Hazel sounds like she is gonna be a crazy fun girl!

Gotta Ember brag tonight. She did GREAT at puppy agility for my husband. Some days she loses her marbles a little bit.. because changing and adolescence and puppy. BUT she did everything with good focus and enthusiasm. That's not the part I care about though. 

The big win of the night is that TWO different dogs ran right up into her face.. and she didn't so much as lift a lip at them. Her ears went back, her eyes got big and she looked to us for direction. We of course immediately separated and gave her lots of cookies. SO proud of this girl lately.


----------



## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> So happy for you and Watson. That is so great that he is improving!! And Hazel sounds like she is gonna be a crazy fun girl!
> 
> Gotta Ember brag tonight. She did GREAT at puppy agility for my husband. Some days she loses her marbles a little bit.. because changing and adolescence and puppy. BUT she did everything with good focus and enthusiasm. That's not the part I care about though.
> 
> The big win of the night is that TWO different dogs ran right up into her face.. and she didn't so much as lift a lip at them. Her ears went back, her eyes got big and she looked to us for direction. We of course immediately separated and gave her lots of cookies. SO proud of this girl lately.


That's awesome!

Watson actually did something similar in Rally last night. A new dog who he is a bit wary of barked at him as we passed, and he just looked to me instead of barking back. Though he did kind of flip out mildly at the intact male husky he hates, but only when we were passing very close to him. Last time the husky was there Watson had issues with him being 40ft away, so he's much improved.


----------



## CptJack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51fu05m_ZE4

Can you guess what my priority with her is, lately?


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## CptJack

Can you guess what I'm most focused on right now?


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## elrohwen

Yay Molly!

You should check out Mary Ellen Barry's foundations videos. I swear about half of it is impulse control exercises with toys. Good stuff.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Yay Molly!
> 
> You should check out Mary Ellen Barry's foundations videos. I swear about half of it is impulse control exercises with toys. Good stuff.


I actually just ordered that DVD set >.>


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I actually just ordered that DVD set >.>


Yay! I rented it from Bowowflix and just finished it a couple weeks ago. I should have taken notes because now I forget a lot of the stuff, but it was good. Very much about impulse control.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Yay! I rented it from Bowowflix and just finished it a couple weeks ago. I should have taken notes because now I forget a lot of the stuff, but it was good. Very much about impulse control.


Yeah. I mean I'm mostly videoing the leave it stuff because it's so easy TO video, but I've been working on it pretty hard in a few areas and it is paying off. I'm looking forward to seeing what I can get out of those DVDs with regards to it (and other stuff). I'm getting into a bit of a rut. 

Still pretty happy with actively leaving something she's engaged in/playing with, though.


----------



## Laurelin

Is your jolly ball squishy? Ours is pretty hard plastic but I think Hank would like that better....


----------



## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Is your jolly ball squishy? Ours is pretty hard plastic but I think Hank would like that better....


Yeah. I've seen the harder ones and I really like this one. It was technically peppermint scented when we got it and is definitely a 'for horses' toy, but she loves it. It's durable, she can't PUNCTURE it (or hasn't yet), but it's got enough give to be a really satisfying chew and she's left some imprints in the handle with all the gnawing.


----------



## Laurelin

Do you have any idea what that specific type is called? Hank's has the handle and a rope on it but definitely would like the softer one...


----------



## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Do you have any idea what that specific type is called? Hank's has the handle and a rope on it but definitely would like the softer one...


http://www.amazon.com/Horsemens-Pri...5623077&sr=1-1&keywords=Peppermint+Jolly+Ball - I'm pretty sure it's that one. I'm not sure that's the same size as hers, but otherwise it's the same toy.


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## elrohwen

I think the horse one is pretty standard:
http://www.doversaddlery.com/jolly-ball-horse-toy/p/X1-2793/?ids=hjnfincp35at5a2twe2ezjwo

There are softer dog ones. It's not squishy, but it's not hard brittle plastic either. Kind of like a very tough rubber. Soft enough that my dogs have put teeth marks in the handle but hard enough that they haven't damaged it.
http://www.jollypets.com/products/tug-n-toss/


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## Laurelin

Also I need to do a video of Mia and Hank doing leave it. They are both absolutely hilarious about staring holes through me as intently as possible.

Confession time: Summer can't leave it. She gets upset with it and thinks she's in trouble (and I just do the cover the food up version- not harsh training!) and will get really worried. So Summer doesn't leave it at all.


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## CptJack

Kylie only kind of has a leave it for the same reason. She WILL, but she thinks she's being denied the food because she did something wrong. Or seems to - either way, it makes her very, very sad.

ETA: Good news? She wont' TAKE the food in the first place, unless you basically hand it to her. She's a 'there's a plate of steak on the ground? OH WELL" kind of dog. If you want her to have it, you have to give it to her.

Molly walked up on me eating pizza the other day, tried to 'sneak' and grab a slice off my plate (I was on the couch) and then when I looked at her spit it out.


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## Laurelin

CptJack said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Horsemens-Pri...5623077&sr=1-1&keywords=Peppermint+Jolly+Ball - I'm pretty sure it's that one. I'm not sure that's the same size as hers, but otherwise it's the same toy.





elrohwen said:


> I think the horse one is pretty standard:
> http://www.doversaddlery.com/jolly-ball-horse-toy/p/X1-2793/?ids=hjnfincp35at5a2twe2ezjwo
> 
> There are softer dog ones. It's not squishy, but it's not hard brittle plastic either. Kind of like a very tough rubber. Soft enough that my dogs have put teeth marks in the handle but hard enough that they haven't damaged it.
> http://www.jollypets.com/products/tug-n-toss/


Thanks! Ours must be the Romp n Roll.


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## Laurelin

CptJack said:


> Kylie only kind of has a leave it for the same reason. She WILL, but she thinks she's being denied the food because she did something wrong. Or seems to - either way, it makes her very, very sad.


Awww poor Kylie. I'm glad to hear it's not just a Summer thing though. She really thinks she is in trouble. She will leave it but she leaves it by going and hiding and then being nervous about taking the food when you tell her 'ok' so we just don't do it anymore.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Thanks! Ours must be the Romp n Roll.


I don't like the Romp n Roll plastic at all. I have an egg made of the same stuff and my dogs won't touch it. I think it's too slippery to be fun for them.


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## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Awww poor Kylie. I'm glad to hear it's not just a Summer thing though. She really thinks she is in trouble. She will leave it but she leaves it by going and hiding and then being nervous about taking the food when you tell her 'ok' so we just don't do it anymore.


Yeah, I just don't bother, either. Not worth it. Poor little sad dogs.


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## elrohwen

Mine absolutely love "leave it" games.

Hasn't given Watson any real life impulse control, but boy does he love playing It's Yer Choice. Haha. The other day in Rally he was being whiny and couldn't settle between his turns, so we just did It's Yer Choice for 10min and he was so into it. Simple minded dog.


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## Laurelin

CptJack said:


> Molly walked up on me eating pizza the other day, tried to 'sneak' and grab a slice off my plate (I was on the couch) and then when I looked at her spit it out.


Mia sneaks food. It's bad because I laugh a lot at her methods (she's SO deliberate). But yeah... it's bad. Her go to is to very casually act very sweet and try to distract you from the fact she's inching closer to your plate. 



elrohwen said:


> I don't like the Romp n Roll plastic at all. I have an egg made of the same stuff and my dogs won't touch it. I think it's too slippery to be fun for them.


Hank plays with it ok but mostly grabs it by the rope and wants to tug on it. I'm totally buying the horse one though. That looks like something he will really love.



CptJack said:


> Yeah, I just don't bother, either. Not worth it. Poor little sad dogs.


Yep not worth it. Summer's figured out Mia and Hank get told leave it then when they get their food, she can come right to me for hers.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Mine absolutely love "leave it" games.
> 
> Hasn't given Watson any real life impulse control, but boy does he love playing It's Yer Choice. Haha. The other day in Rally he was being whiny and couldn't settle between his turns, so we just did It's Yer Choice for 10min and he was so into it. Simple minded dog.


Both Mia and Hank LOVE leave it games. Poor Summer is just so soft that she seems to interpret making the food inaccessible as a pretty severe correction for some reason.


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## elrohwen

I noticed that Dover Saddlery also has giant horse balls (no handle) in 25", 30", and 40" sizes. I had to go back and post that on the thread from last week in the General section. I guess you could use it as an exercise ball too. Haha


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Both Mia and Hank LOVE leave it games. Poor Summer is just so soft that she seems to interpret making the food inaccessible as a pretty severe correction for some reason.


Yeah, I can see how some dogs would find that punishing. And I think you can over do it even with less soft dogs to the point where they just won't touch the toy any more because you've worked so much on impulse control.


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## CptJack

Laurelin said:


> Mia sneaks food. It's bad because I laugh a lot at her methods (she's SO deliberate). But yeah... it's bad. Her go to is to very casually act very sweet and try to distract you from the fact she's inching closer to your plate.


Yeah. Molly's method of choice is 'WHAT? I AM JUST RESTING MY HEAD ON YOUR KNEE AND BEING PRECIOUS'. She doesn't run off with it or anything, but she sure as heck tries. 

She also steals things in general, though. Silverware, scissors, socks, my knitting needles, whatever she can wrap her mouth around. She was a fantastic puppy but lately she's just on a mission to take everything that isn't nailed down. It's HYSTERICAL.


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## Laurelin

Sometimes it takes me several minutes to figure out what Mia is up to.


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## elrohwen

Watson is so funny with food. We eat in the living room and he will ignore anything you have. He can sleep on my lap while I'm eating. But occasionally something will smell really good and he'll kind of inch up to your plate. Then when his nose is a couple inches away he'll flick out a tongue. Like that meal smells so good that he just can't help himself but he knows he's not suppose to touch it. Well, ok, maybe juts one lick?

The only time he gets food is if I'm cooking and using cheese. He hears the cheese drawer in the fridge and comes running. The other day I had just a enough mozzerella left to make dinner so I couldn't give him any, and he stared at me and whined for 20min (even barked) until I finally used the cheese to make dinner. Geez, dog. I know you get cheese, but today you don't. You don't need to have a total meltdown.

And both of mine are thiefing thiefs. The best was when I left the bathroom cabinet open, and 5min later he comes trotting out with a bottle of facewash that he found under there. LOL He was so pleased with himself.


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## CptJack

I think the reason Kylie finds it so upsetting is that she gets fed for being right and often loses access to the thing for not getting it right - ie: that was wrong, no treat. She takes it fairly well IN GENERAL, and by fairly well I mean I can try again and then give it to her, but all she's getting from 'leave it' is basically that she's not supposed to try and take the food and therefore she must be doing something wrong and she has NO IDEA what that something might be. 

Molly just likes the game and while i know some people don't like letting the dog have the thing they've been asked to leave, she gets released back to it and is over the moon. It DOES seem to be helping her keep her head around toys more, though, so while it translates to all kinds of impulse control or not I can't guess, it's helping her use her brain in the face of stimulus she finds really exciting. I'll take it.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Molly just likes the game and while i know some people don't like letting the dog have the thing they've been asked to leave, she gets released back to it and is over the moon. It DOES seem to be helping her keep her head around toys more, though, so while it translates to all kinds of impulse control or not I can't guess, it's helping her use her brain in the face of stimulus she finds really exciting. I'll take it.


In the Mary Ellen Barry videos, she lets the dogs have the item a lot of the time. Sometimes you leave a toy, then I let you get it. Sometimes you leave a toy and you can't have it back, but you can have this other toy. I kind of think it's silly to never let the dog have the item that you told them to leave. I'd rather have a balance, where the dog may get it, but probably won't. Keep them guessing.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> In the Mary Ellen Barry videos, she lets the dogs have the item all the time. I kind of think it's silly to never let the dog have the item that you told them to leave. I'd rather have a balance, where the dog may get it, but probably won't. Keep them guessing.


Yeah, she doesn't always get it back for sure. Sometimes she gets a food treat or a quick game or smacked in the side (it's fun) at the end. She always gets SOMETHING though. Barring emergencies which hasn't come up yet.


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## elrohwen

I think people who say the dog can never have what they left are either 
1) pet trainers who are imagining that you never tell a dog to leave it unless they really can't have that thing (children's toys, dropped pills or chicken bone, etc)
or
2) don't think that dogs are smart enough to figure out what we want unless we do it exactly the same way every single time


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## CptJack

There are so many people who seem to think dogs can't figure things out based on context, just in general, or having different criteria from time to time or who knows what.

If I tell my dog to get out at a barrel, they go out and circle it. 

If I tell my dog to get out and point toward a tunnel, they take the tunnel - they don't circle around it. 

If I tell my dog to get out while I'm in the bathroom, they leave the room. 

The only time that's going to get confusing is if there's a tunnel behind a barrel in my bathroom. I have literally NEVER seen confusion.


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## elrohwen

In other news, tomorrow is Hazel's first ever agility class! I'm excited and nervous, mostly because it's at a different place with trainers I've never met, so I'm not really sure what to expect. It's a beginner class, not puppy foundations or anything, but it says puppies 6+ months are allowed so it should be fine for her. I'm not really nervous about how she'll do since she's been in enough group classes now, and shared private lessons with Watson. It's also indoors which is going to be so fantastic in a couple months.


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## Laurelin

My dogs get what I ask them to leave 99.99% of the time. 

Summer is the same as Kylie exactly. She has no idea at all why she is wrong and she thinks she is wrong because the food is made inaccessible. 

My other two think of it as a game and all three were taught it the same way. It's yer choice games in general are really demoralizing to Summer. She just does. Not. Understand. 

I think part of it with Summer is when you make the food inaccessible you often close the hand and/or cover the food on the ground with your hand. Summer was not expecting that and she's really squirrely about unexpected movement and she got startled by the simple act if my hand closing when she was trying to dive in for the food. She honestly yelped and got very upset the first time she thought she was getting a treat and I instead closed my hand around it. 

It's so sad sounding now writing that out. 

She also gets upset at puzzle toys and has never figured them out. But I've never really seen any discussion about dogs finding leave it games aversive.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I think people who say the dog can never have what they left are either
> 1) pet trainers who are imagining that you never tell a dog to leave it unless they really can't have that thing (children's toys, dropped pills or chicken bone, etc)
> or
> 2) don't think that dogs are smart enough to figure out what we want unless we do it exactly the same way every single time


The only time I've heard this is to not release the dog to go get the thing, you're supposed to get it and give it to them or reward with something else. Or use a different cue if you're going to release them, stay or wait or whatever vs leave it. 

The reasoning given was that you'll start to get a creep toward the thing in anticipation of getting to get it. Which I did see happening in some of the dogs in our class where the owners were releasing them to the food/toy.


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## CptJack

For me it's really no different than a stay release. If they start creeping or start to break *reset* and don't let them have it. Or that's kind of my reasoning, but admittedly sometimes it would be awfully hard to do effectively (ie: to prevent them getting the thing at a creep)


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## sassafras

Yea I usually just let them have what they left, too. I know some people feel really strongly that's wrong but I don't feel like it's ever caused me a problem.


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## OwnedbyACDs

CptJack said:


> I think the reason Kylie finds it so upsetting is that she gets fed for being right and often loses access to the thing for not getting it right - ie: that was wrong, no treat. She takes it fairly well IN GENERAL, and by fairly well I mean I can try again and then give it to her, but all she's getting from 'leave it' is basically that she's not supposed to try and take the food and therefore she must be doing something wrong and she has NO IDEA what that something might be.
> 
> Molly just likes the game and while i know some people don't like letting the dog have the thing they've been asked to leave, she gets released back to it and is over the moon. It DOES seem to be helping her keep her head around toys more, though, so while it translates to all kinds of impulse control or not I can't guess, it's helping her use her brain in the face of stimulus she finds really exciting. I'll take it.


Lol when I give Lincoln a no reward marker word and he gets no treat he goes crazy and tries harder offering all the behaviors he knows trying to please me so he can get his reward lol he will do that for praise or a treat it doesn't matter to him as long as I'm happy with him. If he doesn't get it I will physically show him what I want and then ask him to do it by himself one time after that and he will usually get it. He is pretty smart like that.

Also, I would like to apologize for any lack of punctuation in my posts today, I am using text to speech on my phone and sometimes I forget to say the punctuation verbally lol


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## elrohwen

I hate teenage dogs. Hazel's formerly perfect recall is kind of sucking now. Whenever we let her out off leash she just runs and runs in loops through the woods and won't recall. She will keep within sight, and sometimes she will come back but zoom off when she's about 5ft away. She doesn't even follow Watson when he recalls most of the time. She's much better once she's gotten some energy out and returns to near 100%, so right now I either let her zoom and don't recall for a while, or walk her first and then let her off when I think she's in a better frame of mind to listen. And we're back to long lines and things for some quick recall practice during potty breaks. She is 100% perfect on a long line (which is more than I could say for Watson a year ago), so I think it will come back with time. And I think I'm going to order her an ecollar for Christmas anyway and try that. Even if she weans off of it quickly, I'll feel better if she's trained to it and I have more control than just standing there yelling for her. Don't get me wrong, she's still better than Watson. I think he kind of goes over threshold to where he can't hear you, but she can still totally hear you and most of the time she's really good. And she can still work/train off leash, play ball, etc. It's just these moments of "I'm zooming through the woods and I'll be with you in a minute!" that I don't want to become habit. My friends have a springer who will zoom around their house for an hour at a time, not going anywhere, but not listening to recall either - I feel like that's the path Hazel would go down if left to herself.


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## CptJack

I think in order to avoid burning out the recall you're on the right track with letting her run it out and not even TRYING when she's in that frame of mind. You know she's going to do loops and zoomies before she can think so. Let it go and wait for her to have burned off the energy and crazy before you even attempt to keep it under control and get her back. Use the long line or whatever to keep it safe, but I think letting her blow off steam and have fun is going to be important, regardless, and well. When you know they're not going to listen, there's not much point in trying. 

For what it's worth, I think you'll get it back with her. Like you said, unlike Watson she's not hunting or being overriden by another drive. She just needs to expend some energy and GO.

Also for what it's worth? I know almost NO puppies who will break off mid-zoomies to come running back . That's just asking a metric TON (and setting up failure, honestly, even if they sometimes do).


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I think in order to avoid burning out the recall you're on the right track with letting her run it out and not even TRYING when she's in that frame of mind. You know she's going to do loops and zoomies before she can think so. Let it go and wait for her to have burned off the energy and crazy before you even attempt to keep it under control and get her back. Use the long line or whatever to keep it safe, but I think letting her blow off steam and have fun is going to be important, regardless, and well. When you know they're not going to listen, there's not much point in trying.
> 
> For what it's worth, I think you'll get it back with her. Like you said, unlike Watson she's not hunting or being overriden by another drive. She just needs to expend some energy and GO.
> 
> Also for what it's worth? I know almost NO puppies who will break off mid-zoomies to come running back . That's just asking a metric TON (and setting up failure, honestly, even if they sometimes do).


I sure hope so. Watson was much better with recall until he just wasn't, and it's been a long road. But this time I know how to use the ecollar and would be much more comfortable starting it young instead of letting years of bad habits build up. But at the moment it really does seem like she's blowing off steam and not hunting. Funny enough, her prey drive is higher than Watson's, but it mostly extends to just chasing chipmunks and stuff. Basically what normal dogs do - see squirrel, get excited, chase squirrel. But Watson is hunting with his nose and isn't as motivated by visual prey, which is harder to break I think, and harder for me to predict. I like her prey drive for now - it's more useable (she loves toys) and it's a bit safer in that chasing a chipmunk isn't going to take her very far away. 

I think I'm going to start using the 20ft line when we first go out, let her sniff, do some practice recalls so it's on her mind and she knows I have food, reward some check ins, and then let her off. And if she zooms, Watson and I will just keep walking (going out of sight usually helps a bit). She can't zoom on a long line at all unfortunately - 20ft isn't long enough and the 50ft would get tangled in trees and underbrush immediately. I could let her drag the 20ft but I'm not sure it would accomplish much.

She used to be the puppy who would stop doing anything and recall with a smile on her face. She recalled off of flushing a bird a couple times. But she's growing up :-(


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## CptJack

IMO, recalling from one purposeful activity instead of recalling from wild 'let my brains hang out and just MOVE' is different. I could recall Molly off birds and deer and chasing things and all sorts of stuff that was highly valuable to her from a crazy early age and it's great? But I couldn't recall her out of a zoomie NOW. That's not a deliberate, brain engaged, behavior. That's wild energy that needs to go somewhere. As far as I'm concerned their brains aren't even in their HEADS when that is going on. Kylie, even, who is the most reliable dog in the world, if having a major case of zoomies, isn't going to recall to me. Oh, she's going to keep her circles tight and she has fewer zoomies than she used to, but. Well, how well do dogs with zoomies follow direction on an agility course, you know? Even otherwise really good dogs?

It's just not a time when, IMO, it's fair to even ASK 99% of dogs. I don't think they're capable of it, really, most of the time because they just are. not. there.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> IMO, recalling from one purposeful activity instead of recalling from wild 'let my brains hang out and just MOVE' is different. I could recall Molly off birds and deer and chasing things and all sorts of stuff that was highly valuable to her from a crazy early age and it's great? But I couldn't recall her out of a zoomie NOW. That's not a deliberate, brain engaged, behavior. That's wild energy that needs to go somewhere. As far as I'm concerned their brains aren't even in their HEADS when that is going on. Kylie, even, who is the most reliable dog in the world, if having a major case of zoomies, isn't going to recall to me. Oh, she's going to keep her circles tight and she has fewer zoomies than she used to, but. Well, how well do dogs with zoomies follow direction on an agility course, you know? Even otherwise really good dogs?
> 
> It's just not a time when, IMO, it's fair to even ASK 99% of dogs. I don't think they're capable of it, really, most of the time because they just are. not. there.



That's a good point. I don't really have any experience with zoomies so it's a new thing to me. I don't think Watson has ever done "real" zoomies. He will leave me, but it's because he's distracted or stressed or whatever. He has never been one to just run in circles with no goal or object. He'll run around on a scent or something, but never just for the joy of running. So it's good to know that other dogs zoom and can't recall, but it's not the beginning of the end of the recall either.


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## DogTheGreat

Have you guys noticed any changes in your dog's work ethic as they've matured? I know some dogs just really love to train and work as they find it inherently rewarding. Shae's food drive is of course there and her toy drive is awesome, so I can obviously make training rewarding and fun for her but I just wish she liked it more beyond the rewards for doing it. Her frustration tolerance is annoyingly low (is there a way to build that?) and all she really wants to do 24/7 is play. I know some of it is probably her being the adolescent dog that she is, but I'm also pretty sure most of it just comes down to her personality which is fine because it's still workable. Sometimes I catch glimpses of her working just to work, especially lately with frisbee because she's a frisbee nut so we've been doing a lot with that, but for the most part it's a lot of cheerleading. 

Okay rambled, but yeah, maturation and work ethic. Anyone?


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## CptJack

There's a lot going on here.

Short answer: Work ethic/the dog finding work/training rewarding is something that the dogs I've had who have it have always had to some degree and the dogs who don't like it have not suddenly started to like it more with age. 

However: 
Attention span increases with practice/experience and maturity
Mental stamina increases with practice/experience and maturity
Energy/physical ability increases with practice/experience and maturity
And
Frustration tolerance can be built, but it's a slow process and the result of largely setting the dog up to be successful as much as possible so they gain confidence and have some reserve to draw on, rather than totally deflating. If you're telling a dog they're wrong, it's basically taking some confidence out of the cookie jar. You have to put it back, and you have to make sure it's there to 'withdraw against'. 

Also, honestly, the biggest thing is transfer of value between the reward and the activity. That happens with lots and lots of rewards and time. Working for the sake of working is not something most even truly driven dogs with tons of work ethic do. It's just that for sometimes the rewarding bit is engaging with a human, do to wiring. What you want to do is take a dog who is 'meh' about working with you and make yourself the most awesome fun thing ever and, yeah, that takes time. 

In my case it took Kylie, who liked me but didn't love agility, a good year/18 months to transfer enough value via high level reward history, to agility for her to love agility. YOu want to do that with work in general. 

So it might, likely WILL, become more fun for her but it will only happen if you keep it rewarding NOW, don't withdraw her confidence/fun account, and keep her frustration levels low.


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## elrohwen

I haven't really noticed a change in my dogs. Watson's toy drive went down with age, as his prey/hunt drive went up. And while he can stress out about training sometimes in training facilities, at his core his work ethic has always been about the same. He loves to train and work, but his other drives and worries overshadow that which is where we put in most of our work. He also needs to be stepped through new things very slowly and step by step - he is not a risk taker, does not like frustration, and does not make intuitive leaps. That stuff has all been consistent since puppyhood.

Hazel has always had good food and toy drive, and great work ethic. She is ready and willing to do whatever I want to do. She has a high tolerance for failure and frustration and is willing to try anything. Basically the opposite of Watson in that sense. She's almost 7 months old and I haven't seen a change really. She has some other obnoxious teenage behaviors (gets more excited by other dogs and prey animals now, recall not as great) but when it's time to work she's fundamentally the same.

But both of my dogs are working for rewards. They love to work with me and it's a relationship we built up, but at the end of the day getting to play or get food rewards is always going to be more fun than heeling or something. Lots of dogs really enjoy doing something, anything, and they like working with us because it fulfills that need, but expecting your dog to find personal enjoyment in some random activity that you decided on is not necessarily going to happen, no matter what breed. It's most likely to come up for instinctual behavior (herding or nosework or something).

I may be reading into this wrong, because I can't see what you're doing or what Shae is doing, but it sounds like she has excellent drives. A dog who wants to play 24/7 is awesome! That is a dog you can train! Maybe you just need to learn to approach training as play, instead of as something serious and separate from play? The ideal is for training and play to blur together for the dog so that it's all one activity.

ETA: And everything CptJack said. It's a great goal to work up to personal play with you as the reward, and that's easier for some dogs than others. But it's still personal *play* and interaction with the human that the dog wants. For the most part it's the working with the human that is motivating and not the work itself.


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## ireth0

CptJack said:


> IMO, recalling from one purposeful activity instead of recalling from wild 'let my brains hang out and just MOVE' is different. I could recall Molly off birds and deer and chasing things and all sorts of stuff that was highly valuable to her from a crazy early age and it's great? But I couldn't recall her out of a zoomie NOW. That's not a deliberate, brain engaged, behavior. That's wild energy that needs to go somewhere. As far as I'm concerned their brains aren't even in their HEADS when that is going on. Kylie, even, who is the most reliable dog in the world, if having a major case of zoomies, isn't going to recall to me. Oh, she's going to keep her circles tight and she has fewer zoomies than she used to, but. Well, how well do dogs with zoomies follow direction on an agility course, you know? Even otherwise really good dogs?
> 
> It's just not a time when, IMO, it's fair to even ASK 99% of dogs. I don't think they're capable of it, really, most of the time because they just are. not. there.


Yea I agree, IMO a lot of good recall training is knowing when to pick your recall moments and not asking for it when you're not sure you're going to get it when you're in the training phases, and otherwise not allowing the opportunity for them to blow you off. 

I know it's scary for you because Watson has run off before, but if she's just doing zoomies in the general area I would just leave her be, honestly. Or if you really feel she's going to go off and not listen about coming back, just keep her on the long line while you work on your training, she's still just a young puppy after all.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea I agree, IMO a lot of good recall training is knowing when to pick your recall moments and not asking for it when you're not sure you're going to get it when you're in the training phases, and otherwise not allowing the opportunity for them to blow you off.
> 
> I know it's scary for you because Watson has run off before, but if she's just doing zoomies in the general area I would just leave her be, honestly. Or if you really feel she's going to go off and not listen about coming back, just keep her on the long line while you work on your training, she's still just a young puppy after all.


I guess I just felt like we were beyond the training phase since it's been 5 months. Hence why I hate teenage dogs, because it's like everything rests near zero and you have to train it all over. At this point I'm confident that she knows the recall cue and is blowing me off in these specific situations. It's not a case of being in the training phase any more. It's teenage dog brain "I'll be with you in a second!"

My main issue with keeping her on the long line long term is 1) she won't get to run around at all (20ft is not long enough, and 50ft is going to get tangled immediately) and 2) Watson was on a long line for years and it did zero to help his recall. If anything it made it worse because he just wanted to get off of the long line.


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## ireth0

Well the long line is management more than anything. 5 months IMO is a shortish amount of time for recall training. I mean, I would expect at least a good year of work before expecting something reliable, moreso for a young dog. 

And even then, training isn't really a 'it takes this long to get this' as much as it is considering the individual dog and how much time -they- need for a particular thing. I mean, we've been working on recall over a year now and she's pretty good, but I'm still not 100% comfortable letting her off leash in an unfenced area.


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## CptJack

This isn't a training thing.

Even with dogs who are off leash reliable, there are times they are NOT going to recall. Those are very few and far between but they do exist. I think mostly you need to understand that 'dog is reliable off leash and has a good recall' does not mean 'will always call when called, no matter the circumstance'. When the dog is doing zoomies, it's akin to trying to recall the dog when it's in the middle of going poop. It's just not going to happen 99% of the time and I wouldn't even bother TRYING. 

If I know the dog is going to zoomie, I let them zoomie or clip them on a long line. If I KNOW the dog is pooping, I don't recall them. In both cases, I just wait for them to finish and then call. 

It just - sometimes they've gotta go, and sometimes you HAVE to let the dog turn their brain off and move, when you're dealing with that kind of energy. Trying to get her to recall away from that mindless fun that she clearly needs at least once in a while is just going to set up conflict and make recall the opposite of rewarding.

And your recall is going to suffer both because you're asking her to leave doing something that's really kind of wild time where her brain isn't there at all (and even smart, engaged, dogs need to be allowed to turn their mind off sometimes and just BE and run and play) AND you're poisoning the cue. Seriously. She's fine. But don't try and recall her while she's doing that.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Well the long line is management more than anything. 5 months IMO is a shortish amount of time for recall training. I mean, I would expect at least a good year of work before expecting something reliable, moreso for a young dog.
> 
> And even then, training isn't really a 'it takes this long to get this' as much as it is considering the individual dog and how much time -they- need for a particular thing. I mean, we've been working on recall over a year now and she's pretty good, but I'm still not 100% comfortable letting her off leash in an unfenced area.


I am considering the individual dog though  We worked on recall for 5 months and she was 100% perfect for the past 4 months of that. It's a teenager thing, I know, but I am confident that she knows and understands her recall cue.

And I still do not like long lines as management for recall all the time. I don't think they are much better than a 6ft leash for dogs who really like to run and move out away from you and can cause frustration. Of course I use them, but they don't solve any problems long term.

ETA: Basically I agree with CptJack that this is probably a situation she just cannot recall from, and my choice is to restrict her from zooming, or to let her go for it and not recall her until she's ready. But I agree that it's not a training problem in the sense of her not understanding the recall or not being proofed on the recall.


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## MrsBoats

CptJack said:


> IMO, recalling from one purposeful activity instead of recalling from wild 'let my brains hang out and just MOVE' is different. I could recall Molly off birds and deer and chasing things and all sorts of stuff that was highly valuable to her from a crazy early age and it's great? But I couldn't recall her out of a zoomie NOW. That's not a deliberate, brain engaged, behavior. That's wild energy that needs to go somewhere. As far as I'm concerned their brains aren't even in their HEADS when that is going on. Kylie, even, who is the most reliable dog in the world, if having a major case of zoomies, isn't going to recall to me. Oh, she's going to keep her circles tight and she has fewer zoomies than she used to, but. Well, how well do dogs with zoomies follow direction on an agility course, you know? Even otherwise really good dogs?
> 
> It's just not a time when, IMO, it's fair to even ASK 99% of dogs. I don't think they're capable of it, really, most of the time because they just are. not. there.


I 100% agree with this. 

If my dogs start zoomies....I just let them enjoy themselves and I laugh and laugh hard at them blowing off steam. I have been known to actually join in with them and chase them around while they are flying around like banshees. That helps build relationship with them...and to show them I can be a lot of fun too. It just them (and me) cutting loose and enjoying life. Most dogs lead lives where we micromanage every move they make and their lives are all about behavior containment. Zoomies balance that all out and they are not a bad thing. 

Zoomies can also tell you something....they can be a stress reliever for dogs too. My first dog, Sammy, decided to have a zoomie attack when we were heeling off lead at a show in Novice Obedience. He was lagging pretty bad...and the judge said "Fast." So I started on my fast pace....then I hear Sam and his 130 pounds start running behind me and then he streaks past me. He starts charging around the ring growling to himself. I thought the judge was going to have heart failure...and I just started to laugh a belly laugh and say out loud "Oh My God....It's a zoomie attack!" And...everyone in the ring and around the ring started to laugh too. Of course, we NQ'ed but the judge told me that I need to keep going and keep up with working Sam (in an encouraging way.) At the time, I didn't know it was a stress relief to heeling off leash...but I know now. You see dogs in novice agility classes at trials have zoomie attacks...because they are working through their (and their owner's) stress. 

When a dog is in that state of mind of either stressed to the point they are going to zoom...or just zooming because it's a whole hell of a lot of fun, you're not going to be able to call them out of it. If they are having fun...and you do recall them back to reality enough, they aren't going to see you as a whole lot of fun either. 

How old is Hazel now?? 

Just for some perspective, we didn't fence in our yard until Lars was about 2.5 years old. Lars was on a long line or on leash in my own backyard until he was 18 months old. Here's proof!! LOL






There's a 1 year old Lars and a 10 year old Sammy. <3


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## DogTheGreat

CptJack said:


> Also, honestly, the biggest thing is transfer of value between the reward and the activity. That happens with lots and lots of rewards and time. Working for the sake of working is not something most even truly driven dogs with tons of work ethic do. It's just that for sometimes the rewarding bit is engaging with a human, do to wiring. What you want to do is take a dog who is 'meh' about working with you and make yourself the most awesome fun thing ever and, yeah, that takes time.


Yeah, that all makes sense. I mean she does really enjoy interacting with me and all, but compared to all of the other fun things out there? Meh usually. 



elrohwen said:


> He also needs to be stepped through new things very slowly and step by step - he is not a risk taker, does not like frustration, and does not make intuitive leaps.


Yeah, this is basically Shae if you really break it up and look at it. You have to baby her if you want to keep her really engaged. 


All good advice and insight. Thanks guys!


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## ireth0

Omg puppy Lars is fricking adorable.


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> If my dogs start zoomies....I just let them enjoy themselves and I laugh and laugh hard at them blowing off steam. I have been known to actually join in with them and chase them around while they are flying around like banshees. That helps build relationship with them...and to show them I can be a lot of fun too. It just them (and me) cutting loose and enjoying life. Most dogs lead lives where we micromanage every move they make and their lives are all about behavior containment. Zoomies balance that all out and they are not a bad thing.


I'm mostly concerned with her running off somewhere she shouldn't. Like if she's just in the field and I can see her, no biggie! Watson and I run around with her, play games, etc. But she'll go into the woods where it gets tricky. Still, I've pretty much always been able to see her and with leaves falling it's even easier. 



> How old is Hazel now??


She is almost 7 months


I'm mostly concerned because this is about the time Watson's recall went all to hell. So if she's really having fun and isn't going to just leave, then have at it. But I worry that she's going to go down the road Watson did where freedom means "hunt all the things" and come home 20min later when you find your brain again. Right now it really does seem like just zoomies though and not active hunting behavior.

We have 10 acres, surrounded by a farm and public woods, and 1/4 mile from a busy road. So even if she does run away risk is low, but it freaks me out when they get out of sight, based on past history with Watson.

Here's an example:


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## MrsBoats

7 months old?? I wouldn't expect any *puppy* of that age to have a reliable recall. She's still a puppy....a teenaged dog is 15 - 24 months old.

And for what it's worth, I won't let either of my adult dogs off leash in the woods.


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> 7 months old?? I wouldn't expect any *puppy* of that age to have a reliable recall. She's still a puppy....a teenaged dog is 15 - 24 months old.


I don't think of teenaged as 15-24 months at all? Adolescent starts around 6-8 months for most small-medium dogs (I'm sure there are better sources but this came up first): https://www.petfinder.com/dogs/dog-problems/surviving-dog-adolescence/

She's been off leash since she came home and has always stuck close. If I limit her to a 20ft line it will severely restrict her freedom. Obviously I do it sometimes, and she is leashed on our property at times, but if I let her drag it she would quickly be beyond the 20ft line. Watson drags a 10ft line usually, but his issues are different and he doesn't run wild through the woods.

I'm also not expecting her recall to be perfect in new locations with new distractions. She's not off leash while hiking or at parks or when there are any other people/dogs/animals that would be distractions. This is strictly on our property where she has been off leash every day with tons of reinforcement history.


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## MrsBoats

She's still a puppy...

Were you looking for us to agree it's okay to get an ecollar for her??


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> She's still a puppy...
> 
> Were you looking for us to agree it's okay to get an ecollar for her??


No? Not sure where the heck you got that idea?

And I know she's still a puppy. Hence my original post complaining about how puppies turning into adolescence is tough because they gain so much more independent over night. Do you disagree with that? What is wrong with saying that? Am I not allowed to be frustrated that my clingy puppy is growing into a more independent adolescent and needs some remedial recall work?

I'm not sure why I'm getting jumped on for letting a puppy off leash on my own rural property.


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## CptJack

Yeah, typical teenager for my dogs except Thud started about 6-7 months old. 

And for what it's worth Molly was never kept leashed or on a long line, woods or anywhere else, and I have some nice 6 month shots of her doing so in the middle of hiking. She got zoomies. She wasn't able to recall during those. She was however always able to recall otherwise. Including from deer/prey/chase type things. 

I'm not sure that looks entirely like a zoomie to me but she's a very different breed of dog and moves differently overall so basically just use your judgement.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I'm not sure that looks entirely like a zoomie to me but she's a very different breed of dog and moves differently overall so basically just use your judgement.


I'm pretty sure it's zoomies because 1) it's never in a straight line (when Watson is on a track, he's on it and gone) and 2) I don't see critters. I think there is some hunting behavior there but it's mostly "whee!!!" Just worried the hunting stuff will get worse with age, which is still entirely possible.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I'm pretty sure it's zoomies because 1) it's never in a straight line (when Watson is on a track, he's on it and gone) and 2) I don't see critters. I think there is some hunting behavior there but it's mostly "whee!!!" Just worried the hunting stuff will get worse with age, which is still entirely possible.


Yeah, I'm more than prepared to take your word for it. Mine are mostly not dodging trees while doing it, either  Which affects things.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Yeah, I'm more than prepared to take your word for it. Mine are mostly not dodging trees while doing it, either  Which affects things.


This one isn't in the woods. Still a little hunting behavior here, but she's not actually stopping to pick a track or following anything. Just kind of zoom-sniffing. lol


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## CptJack

Oh yeah. That looks like Thud. Maybe not Thud full out zoomie mode, but at the very least very "YEE_HAW MY BRAIN IS GONE I AM JUST GOING TO MOVE NOW!"

Honestly, I'd just let her run it off. Not if you aren't somewhere safe or you are seriously concerned about risk of losing her, but your best bet really probably is just waiting it out, then recalling and rewarding. IMO.


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## Canyx

Tough call, elrohwen. I totally get what you're saying about wanting to let her be able to run on your beautiful property, but also being afraid of her going on her own little adventure. I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong whether you let her off leash but you know her best and it is your calculated risk. There are just some dogs out there that you KNOW through raising the dog, your entire history with it, and your gut feeling, that no matter how they run they are *very unlikely* to run OFF. And you play those chances. If you're not willing though, and if you don't want to use a long line (I can see how they would tangle easily, based on the environment in your videos), maybe it's time for her to lose those privileges for a while. Maybe you'll have to find a fenced offleash area to practice recall, and fill the energy gap with other things. I think the idea of our dogs losing 'freedom' is harder for us than the dogs to accept, sometimes. And I'm not sure how you feel about that but I certainly can speak for myself on that one. 

But the bottom line is, the more she practices going away from you, the higher the chance becomes of that becoming habit. The 'world away from owner' becomes bigger the farther she steps into it. Which goes back to knowing your dog... If she is just zooming around you and you play the chances of her not running off... Zoomies are harmless to recall training if you time your recalls. If she zooms and does not have a boundary of how far that takes her, AND if she happens upon something of interest on the outer limits of her boundaries, you risk her running off. Remember, right now the very idea of 'going off' is not even a reality to her because it's not yet happened.


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Tough call, elrohwen. I totally get what you're saying about wanting to let her be able to run on your beautiful property, but also being afraid of her going on her own little adventure. I don't think it's a matter of right or wrong whether you let her off leash but you know her best and it is your calculated risk. There are just some dogs out there that you KNOW through raising the dog, your entire history with it, and your gut feeling, that no matter how they run they are *very unlikely* to run OFF. And you play those chances. If you're not willing though, and if you don't want to use a long line (I can see how they would tangle easily, based on the environment in your videos), maybe it's time for her to lose those privileges for a while. Maybe you'll have to find a fenced offleash area to practice recall, and fill the energy gap with other things. I think the idea of our dogs losing 'freedom' is harder for us than the dogs to accept, sometimes. And I'm not sure how you feel about that but I certainly can speak for myself on that one.
> 
> But the bottom line is, the more she practices going away from you, the higher the chance becomes of that becoming habit. The 'world away from owner' becomes bigger the farther she steps into it. Which goes back to knowing your dog... If she is just zooming around you and you play the chances of her not running off... Zoomies are harmless to recall training if you time your recalls. If she zooms and does not have a boundary of how far that takes her, AND if she happens upon something of interest on the outer limits of her boundaries, you risk her running off. Remember, right now the very idea of 'going off' is not even a reality to her because it's not yet happened.


Yes, that is basically the entire reason I do worry. I know dogs who are similar to her who are fine off leash into maturity. But then Watson was fine off leash until he discovered deer and we found out he would run off (though he always returned quickly). Basically if she stayed the way she is now for life I would be 100% fine, but I'm not naive enough to believe that she's not going to go through more changes as she gets older and develops. I am just crossing my fingers that her prey/hunt drive does not kick in to the extent that Watson's did (or that she keeps a clearer head) because that would suck. But if it does, I am willing to try the ecollar again since I had a lot of success with Watson and I know more what I'm doing now. On the whole, her recall is probably at 95%+ otherwise - the only time she blows me off is during these zoomies. Otherwise she is really really good. Like, works with me off leash in classes and parks (at the park she is on a long line, but it's dragging). Her recall is better than Watson's.

And sorry it wasn't clear because I didn't give details, but she has lost freedoms as this came up. No more off leash potty breaks, she's often leashed on our property unless we're specifically playing fetch or something. But with Watson I learned my lesson that just putting a dog on a long line for 2 years is not going to magically make his recall better. I need to use it thoughtfully.


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## MrsBoats

elrohwen said:


> No? Not sure where the heck you got that idea?
> 
> And I know she's still a puppy. Hence my original post complaining about how puppies turning into adolescence is tough because they gain so much more independent over night. Do you disagree with that? What is wrong with saying that? Am I not allowed to be frustrated that my clingy puppy is growing into a more independent adolescent and needs some remedial recall work?
> 
> I'm not sure why I'm getting jumped on for letting a puppy off leash on my own rural property.


You mentioned that you were thinking about getting her an ecollar for christmas. That's where I got that idea. Personally, I have a problem with an ecollar a quick fix solution in this situation with such a young dog. 

I have gone through adolescence with my three boys. I brought Sam home when he was 18 months old. Adolescence wasn't that big of a deal because I accepted that training was going to backside and things were going to regress. That honestly is just dog training. You fix one thing...and something else breaks...that's dog training too. I, personally, think you're being a bit unrealistic on where you think Hazel should be right now. And....I'm speaking as a professional dog trainer. You are more than welcome to be frustrated....but I think unrealistic expectations are clouding things.


I can honestly and truly say there's nothing I hate about training or my dogs....and you did the word hate. That's the attitude that is going to haunt you throughout your journey with your dogs and their training. If you hate something that's going on....you cannot lie to a dog. They know it...and they know how you feel. Do I get frustrated on stuff...you bet. Right now, Lars' go outs in Utility aren't what they should be...and that is frustrating to me. Ocean's contact criteria is spot on in class and home....but at trials, he running with so much power, he can't stick his a-frame and his teeter contact is by the skin of his teeth. That is frustrating too. But...that's the name of the training game. Something is always going to break and there's something that always has to be fixed. Once you accept and expect that your teenage puppy is going to backside, it's way less frustrating. I accept and except that I will always be tweaking or fixing something with training my own dogs. There's a lot of peace that comes with that. Don't let your frustration get to the point where you use the words like "hate" when talking about where your dog is in their training. Our heads can get in the way of a lot of good stuff that happens with our dogs...accept where she is right now and it is okay where she is because she is so young. 

I haven't read anything past this....and I'm just going to stop here and walk away.


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## Laurelin

I've always thought of teenaged as 10 months to 2+ years. But honestly Hank's the only dog I've noticed teenage behavior in. Mia really didn't have it- she was just wild for years but not in a difficult way.

Hank works just to work if the environment is not challenging. Like at my house he will work long and hard for nothing but praise/personal play. Not likely to happen in other situations yet. He's been like that since day 1 and it's a strange sensation but also pretty neat. I'm actually glad hearing people say their other fairly drivey dogs don't work for just work in all situations. I kind of expected Hank to be better at working outside the home more with lower value rewards than he is. Gosh he has such a fine line between flat and then super high/no brain.

My papillons and shelties have been perfect off leash from the get go for the most part (Beau is one exception- he would get a wild hair know and then). It is just breed/them though not really training. It would be really hard to force most papillons to run away. They just don't. That said, none of them had a 100% reliable recall all the time. But they weren't going to go *poof*, you know?

Hank is long lined and probably will be forever. Just too high of prey drive and too one track mind for me to trust him. Maybe one day... he's actually really good 95% of the time until a critter comes by. He is getting better as he matures and can now work around other dogs. But I really only trust him off leash while he's working and that's it. One of my friends has a nice thin biothane longline from a nosework person. I think it would be ideal for hiking/etc because it's thicker and doesn't seem to want to tangle as easy.

If you can get out into a field area with a long enough longline and let them drag it, that can work. That's what I do for running time with Hank.


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> You mentioned that you were thinking about getting her an ecollar for christmas. That's where I got that idea. Personally, I have a problem with an ecollar a quick fix solution in this situation with such a young dog.


I didn't say when I was going to use it. I didn't train Watson on the ecollar until almost 3 years old, and I feel like that was too late. I was scared of it before and so he lived on a long line for a couple years which didn't do us any favors. If her drive to hunt turns on the way his was to the extent that there is nothing I can offer better than that, then yes, I will go back to the ecollar again. And it's not a quick fix - I spent at least 4 months working with Watson on a line with the ecollar until he was ready to drag a line. They are hunting dogs, and hunting is a really big competing motivator. They are not rottweilers.

And I think you are reading WAY too much psycho babble into my post. Sometimes people need to vent. It doesn't have to mean as much as you think it does. I think you read too much of your own story into things other people say. Please stop projecting your own angst onto things I say - we are not the same person.

I do not hate my puppy. I do not hate things that she does. I just ... wanted to vent and get some support? If I need to be psychoanlyzed I'll ask my parents who are licensed psychologists. Last I checked, venting once in a while does not make someone disappointed in their dog. Have you read a single other post I've made about Hazel? I couldn't be disappointed in her if I tried.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> This one isn't in the woods. Still a little hunting behavior here, but she's not actually stopping to pick a track or following anything. Just kind of zoom-sniffing. lol


To me this looks like hunt behavior more than zoomies. It's very similar to how Hank works a ground hide at least. Nose shoved into the grass and that loping kind of run. When he's doing zoomies he has the butt tuck and splayed front legs and basically tends to just do donuts as fast as possible. His head is up and ears are usually back. 

But he is a different type of dog though still very into crittering.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> To me this looks like hunt behavior more than zoomies. It's very similar to how Hank works a ground hide at least. Nose shoved into the grass and that loping kind of run. When he's doing zoomies he has the butt tuck and splayed front legs and basically tends to just do donuts as fast as possible. His head is up and ears are usually back.
> 
> But he is a different type of dog though still very into crittering.


There is some hunting behavior there for sure. It's just very different from Watson's. Less frantic? Less overthreshold? But then he developed that with time and he got more and more into hunting. But she never seems to find anything or stick to a track - it's just random behavior. But again, could be her immaturity and something that will kick in more with time. Which is basically my entire source of "ugh" feeling because for some reason I hoped it wouldn't happen with her, since her entire personality is so different from his and more handler focused. We will see.

And to respond to your previous comment, at least they are not dogs who want to run off. Watson has run off but come back within 20min, or has been where he could know where we were. But I do not like them out of sight at all. At least they are pretty hardwired not to disappear like some dogs but it doesn't make me feel better if they get out of sight.

We do have a couple big fields where we do most of our recall practice. She has been 100% in those areas, so we will keep working on it. It's really the woods that are tough, because I can't even follow her in there 20ft most of the time. My game plan for now is to control the beginning of her time outside with long lines, recall practice, playing fetch, etc. If she is good she can zoom all she wants on the way back to the house. She's also less inclined to zoom after she's gotten the energy out with fetch. And other than that, basically cross my fingers on the prey drive part.


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## ireth0

I'm going to put this here since it's a blend of stuff and the sports threads are less active anyway. 

Last night we had rally and missc89 happened to be in town so we invited her to come with us to observe. It happened to be our first night trying a 'real' course. We weren't supposed to be concerned with proper positioning or perfect heeling or anything like that, it was more just to initially get used to working in a course environment and see what our issues were going to be so we could work on them. The signs we used weren't even all real rally signs, just stuff for the foundation behaviours we've been practicing so we could really just focus on moving around the course, not running into signs, etc. Of course we -did- run into the signs, but eh, to be expected. Also Luna kept trying to paw the signs which, for her, also to be expected since that`s her default behaviour with any new object. I'm sure getting more proper positioning in the future (her on my left, sign on my right) and just time getting used to not interacting with them will help that. 

Overall we did pretty well. She did all the things I asked her for well once I actually got myself in order enough to ask her to do something, lol. We did some go outs around a plunger and she did such a good job. She thought SO HARD about pawing the plunger but then didn't and we threw a party, I was so proud! The other thing I was really happy with was that this class we didn't have an issue with holding her sit, which was also really great to see. 

At the end of class we did some pace changes walking across the room and I was really proud of Luna's heeling. She was bang on in position each time.

So then we were offered to stay and do a nosework class so missc89 could watch that too. We had been planning just to watch, but they offered to let us participate. We haven't practiced nosework since June, and Luna has never done back to back classes before, so I figured whatever, we'd give it a shot and I'd keep my expectations super low. 

Well OF COURSE they put us with the advanced group, and OF COURSE they were doing full room searches with multiple hides (5). The hides weren't even that easy either, some were just spots taped on the wall (and like, multiple spots next to each other and we had to pinpoint which one) or up high on windowsills or light switches, etc.

I didn't even know that Luna would remember how to play the game. But of course, she did. She did an excellent job and definitely held her own compared to all the other dogs who have continued doing classes since we stopped. She was even being very good about nose touching the find consistently which in the past we've struggled with. There was some degree of focusing on me and wanting he to direct her vs working on her own, but I expected that since rally is much more handler focused. 

Even waiting on her mat between turns she was excellent with. 

The ONLY downer of the night was when a girl (maybe like 8-9) who takes some kind of martial arts class at the facility came in to say hi to the dogs as she often does. We're normally not there at the time she comes so she hasn't met Luna before. So she went down the line of dogs (being introduced by the class facilitator only to dogs that are okay with kids) then got to Luna. After she was introduced she hesitated and asked in this wary/nervous voice "Is that a pit bull?" and I'm not gonna lie, my heart broke a little bit. I said we didn't know and the others backed me up saying she was just an unknown mutt, and the girl patted her and Luna loved it. But man. Right in the heart, I tell ya.


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## elrohwen

Great job Luna! And that's so fun that missc89 got to come along.

Hopefully Luna showed the little girl that bully mixes are sweet dogs. I'm sure the pit bull thing is something her parents have told her but maybe she can make up her own mind if she meets more dogs like Luna.


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## elrohwen

Hazel cracked me up in obedience class last night. It's a new round of classes and everybody else is new I think (we're repeating) so the instructor asked me to demonstrate a "formal" recall that everyone would be working up to from the retrained recalls in the last class. Not a full on polished obedience recall of course, but have the dog stay, walk away 10-20ft, call them, and help them find a sit in front. Hazel can do this, and she's done it in previous classes, so we were the demo. 

So we set up, I walk away, turn, and she comes racing to me. Ok, no problem, set up again, walk out, and she's standing up and looking for crumbs on the floor. We finally get it and the instructor says "thank you to Laura and Hazel for demonstrating everything that can go wrong" Glad we could help  I was laughing the whole time

ETA: I'm also starting to get the cutest pranciest heel for a couple steps without a direct lure. Heeling has been on the back burner for a while, but glad to see that there is something there to build on.


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## TGKvr

A friend of mine just took his puppy to an obedience class (same school I use) and in the intro, she mentioned that they don't do harsh corrections, no hitting, and no hanging... WHAT is hanging a dog? Other than the obvious? I've never heard of this before and I don't know if she was being facetious or if this is a term for something else. I don't recall her ever saying that in the class I took with her a while back.

Related... getting my girl back into class tonight after missing two sessions in a row. Last class before the CGC class!


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## ireth0

Hanging is (from my understanding) lifting the dog up with the leash by the collar so the front feet are off the ground so it is essentially 'hanging' from the leash.


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## TGKvr

OK... that makes sense. But... why would someone do that? Is it considered to be a correction of some sort?


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## ireth0

TGKvr said:


> Is it considered to be a correction of some sort?


Essentially, yes. 

My understanding, again, is that it isn't meant to be a quick correction like say a leash pop, but more of a 'I'm going to hang you like this until you submit' kind of thing. Similar to holding a dog down in an alpha roll until it stops struggling.


----------



## elrohwen

Ireth0 is right on the method. The idea is to cut off the dog's breathing for a few seconds to shut them down. The only way I know about it being used now is on handler aggressive dogs. The idea is not to choke them out, but it's not a kind method of training either.


----------



## ireth0

Yea, and just a disclaimer because it makes me feel better; Nobody should ever use this technique on their dog. You there reading this, do not do this to your dog.


----------



## Rescued

Nug and I just did the first pre agility class (I was more interested in rally but we suck at targeting so I figured this would be a fun one for him, I don't even really want to do agility) and he loved it! Finally my drivey not spooky hard as a tank asslab did fantastic in something!


----------



## Laurelin

Not want to do agility? Blasphemy! 

I think Hank and I needed these last two weeks where we've literally done nothing but snuggle for the most part. Just a little break for the brain. We came back to training really nicely tonight.


----------



## CptJack

I have no idea how Molly is in a dog dense setting these days, because it's been about a month since we've been in one. 

However, in general, she's really turning into a nice dog. She doesn't react to dogs when we see them in the distance, out and about. She doesn't even care. She doesn't react to the dogs we pass on the street. When something happens to upset/scare her at or around the house she will accept my checking and going 'yep, we're okay'. If it's TOO much she comes and buries my head in my chest and is happy to be reassured. 

Someday before long I'll take her back to some dog heavy location (or heavier - somewhere we might encounter a couple of dogs) and we'll maybe do some work. For right now? I'm just happy to see her starting to unwind and trust me. 

It might not be dramatic progress, but. Well, we've needed the time off to snuggle and be together and just play, too.


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## kadylady

I have to share my most recent proud moment with Skye. We had a Halloween party this weekend and had about 30+ people over at our house. Some who she had met, some who she hadn't met, some in costume, tons of food and people sitting around eating food. I had sent Zoey to stay at a friends house because she's terrified of people she doesn't know in the house and I was leaning towards sending Skye with her, thinking she was just going to be so obnoxious and it would be too much for her to handle. Luke loves parties so he was staying. My husband was begging to let Skye stay so I gave in and said we would try and leave her out and if she was naughty or it was too much I could crate her or take her to my friends house with Zoey as she just oives down the street. Well she totally blew my expectations out of the water. She was almost perfect!! She was such a good dog! She didn't bark at people coming in, with the exception of my friends baby carrier, then she was fine after some sniffs. She only jumped on 4 of my dog trainer friends who she knows really well. She didn't steal food, didn't attempt to steal food, didn't obnoxiously beg for food. She was totally fine with the costumes, exceptvfor someone's Hillary Clinton mask, she was barking crazy at that one lol. But seriously, my mind was blown at how good she was! We don't have people at our house very often, especially people she doesn't know and in costume! I'm so crazy proud of her! And it's a huge relief after dealing with Zoey's fear. Luke of course was a great host.


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## elrohwen

Rescued said:


> Nug and I just did the first pre agility class (I was more interested in rally but we suck at targeting so I figured this would be a fun one for him, I don't even really want to do agility) and he loved it! Finally my drivey not spooky hard as a tank asslab did fantastic in something!


I think those are the dogs who do the best at agility! I hope you guys stick with it!

What do you mean by "we suck at targeting"? 


Laurelin, maybe Hank just needed a break to help find his brain again  Sometimes it's two step forwards one step back, but the progress is there if you give it time.

Cptjack, glad Molly is settling down! I'm not sure if we discussed this, but is it possible she was going through an extended fear period for a while? I know Watson was kind of weird around 13-16 months - barking at stuff he wouldn't have looked at twice, etc. Maybe she's growing out of it?

Kadylady, nice job Skye!! That's great!


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## CptJack

I think she has had fear periods within this, where her reactivity has been _worse_. She's barked at leaves, bags, magazines, mailboxes, people she lives with, reflections, just all kinds of odd things in there. As she matures what she reacts to is becoming more and more specific and predictable instead of just apparently random explosions. I don't actually KNOW where she is right now, but as of the last real check on things it was pretty much down to dogs doing specific things (looking out of control, barking from too close). HOW she was reacting was becoming more problematic/serious (less flail, more confrontational). 

Her personality in general is changing right now, too. Less busy, more affectionate, starting to want to cuddle, coming TO me on the couch and seeking out snuggles, sleeping with me at night, more focus, type stuff that's nice and I like.

What she's going to be at 3 I have no idea. I don't think it's all fear and immaturity since she's been doing this to greater or lesser degrees for a year now, but. I'm enjoying a dog who isn't acting like a total freak in day to day life. LOL.


----------



## Kathyy

Been doing the Karen Overall Relaxation Protocol with Bucky and Ginger. Ginger is a star, not surprised a bit, but Bucky is also acing it. He moves around on his mat but is stuck to it. Most interesting to me is he puts the lessons to work right away. When I finally got a down on him he was generalizing its use inside 3 days and is doing the same with RP. He is a stinker when my daughter comes in the room, barking and jumping at her. Well with day 3 of RP he was sitting calmly for bits of cheese every 10-20 seconds and when released he wagged his tail and accepted petting with no barking or jumping. So he is a stinker but he does want to know what to do. Sassy was like that, very honest dog, what you put in you got out. Put the wrong training in and you won't like what the dog comes up with but put in the right stuff and miracles happen.

Ginger was a superstar at nosework last night. Cold, breezy and damp, first time seeing those dogs as we moved up to intermediate and she hadn't been there at night. New game to play, 2 minutes to find hides, and the handlers didn't know where they were. She found 3 out of 9, the Basset Hound found 4, Papillon found 1 and 1 was left at the end of the night. Really the best part was she played the game and I understood well enough so she wasn't discouraged and stopped playing.


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## elrohwen

I am so excited for most of our classes to end in a couple weeks. I'm getting so burnt out. I just don't enjoy being away from home most evenings doing stuff, even if it's fun stuff. I like to take a relaxing walk, cook dinner, and then hang around watching tv or reading. Three evenings a week, plus a weekend day, is too much. Plus I signed up for an FDSA class at gold and I'm having trouble keeping up with posting videos. It's not even a hard class, but there is a lot more info than I was expecting. 

Two dogs is hard! Watson was typically in 2 classes per week without an issue, but now I have two dogs and am trying to do just as much with each of them and it's too much for me. I'm looking forward to relaxing after work, and maybe even joining friends for trivia once a week.


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## ireth0

Took Luna for the first time to an unfenced off leash park this weekend. This is a generic 'park' for general use in woods with trails which includes an off leash dog paths section. They way it's laid out there is a buffer (it goes water-off leash section-on leash section and general park-parking lot-residential roads) so I was confident we would be safe but still (she wasn't going to bust through trees and be on a road), this was a first and you worry.

Luna did absolutely fantastic, especially since this was a new place to her. She was super responsive to our direction on which path to take/recalling/etc. Aside from squirrels but I was expecting that. SUPER prey drive for squirrels, like throwing herself at the trees and etc. (there was one particularly epic encounter involving leaping from standing on a fence and a thorn bush and my bf catching her, I kind of wish I had filmed it) But this was our first time encountering squirrels so you just have to take the information and learn and plan. You could tell her brain was just gone, we had to go into the woods and manually retrieve her, lol. 

However, that was only 2 incidents over a 2 hour(ish) walk.

Aside from that she was fantastic. She did great with all the different people including kids of all ages, elderly, strollers, bikes, etc. Was great with all the other dogs of all shapes and sizes, even one that was on leash (in the off leash area, dur) and snapped at her. She just walked away like 'Woah man, I get it, you don't have to throw a fit".

She had zoomies twice and didn't run into anyone/anything, so that was also a big win, hahaha.

One of the big things I was impressed with was that she wasn't constantly going up to people trying to get attention because she's a very social dog and generally loves everybody. Even a couple times when we had to walk through a group, she stayed with us very nicely. A couple times she lost sight of us and you could see her looking around like "Aw damn, where'd my people go?!"

So... yea, overall very very pleased. Since we've had her we've been taking baby baby steps working toward this (this park and another similar one are what I refer to as a 'final exam' of off leash capabilities) so it was very cool to see all the hard work and time pay off and have her handle it so well.


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## elrohwen

Hazel is doing *much* better with recall again. She was on a long line for a couple weeks, and only off leash in the fenced area. Then on Friday she escaped from the fenced area a couple times (it's just flimsy garden fencing, and she can fit through tiny holes) but she came back immediately each time. Then Saturday and Sunday we let her drag the long line a bit when were in certain areas of our property (away from where she liked to run loops in the woods) and she was very good. So we're getting there. It's too dark in the evenings now to have any off leash time, so she'll continue to get a lot of recall practice on the flexi and long line after work.

In bad news, she's in heat now which puts a damper on some of our training classes. Mostly agility, because I think that's the only place that doesn't allow bitches in heat. I also have to figure out what I'm doing for the show later this month. DH thinks we can have them both in the car together as long as someone sits in the back with them (and probably put the puppy up front). I'd rather leave Watson at home. I guess it will depend on everybody's behavior, since it's not for a few weeks. She might be basically out of it by then.


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## ireth0

Oh yea, also this weekend we're going to a 3 hour seminar called 'The Motivation Dance'. "Why knowing what turns your dog's crank at the moment deepens your relationship, gets your dog to listen to you, and changes problematic behaviours. -Is nothing in life free, or plenty? -Frustration, pressure, and impulse control -Intrinsic and extrinsic motivation and more..."

No working spots but dogs are welcome that can sit with you quietly. So Luna is coming with me to work on relaxing.


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## TGKvr

Huge progress... went to a party this weekend with about 12 dogs and my girl was SO well behaved and polite! We got lots of compliments about how well she listens, and how well she recalls from her alert bark (at people off in the woods with a headlamp). She was just super chill and didn't try to play with every single dog which is what I was nervous about. I'm really happy and very proud of her, and glad that people can tell how hard we've been working on her training! It gives me hope that she'll be able to pass her CGC test after all!


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## Nissa M

Quick update on Pai> we had a little down time following a bad tum and stay with the e-vet, but have resumed working on leash work and greetings. LLW has been coming along nicely and we're now doing regular walks with intermittent pattern work (sort of like loops and serpentines) to keep us both on our toes. Still not letting people on the street come up and say hi. We had a few guests this week and it was a great opportunity to work on greetings. Pai did an especially amazing job staying on his place while my BIL and his gf arrived and got settled on Sat eve, and they were also really supportive and cooperative with ignoring Pai for the first 15 or so minutes they were here. Once he had settled (really settled, not pretend settled) on his place we released him to say Hi. The only rule was that they could only pet him when he was sitting and calm, otherwise hands off, and I had him on leash to prevent him from jumping up. They totally listened and he did do some wiggling and rolling about but BIL and his gf were really good about only petting when he was calm and Pai was much quicker to offer the sit after a few rounds of this. I was sooo happy with him. Also, after we did the initial hellos I let him loose and he went off and got himself a bone and settled right down. Then yesterday we met up with some friends for a hike and, again, by having them totally ignore Pai for the first 10 mins while I did a bit of work with him, when we did let him go he didn't pay them any mind at all. He didn't even really care to greet them even when they showed interest, he was busy sniffing and doing normal dog things. 

What is probably intuitive for many of you has taken me some time to wrap my head around. Consistency, for one. Not leaving whether he's going to be good or not up to chance and really trying to set him up for success at every opportunity... like waiting until he's moved beyond the extreme excitement before letting the greeting happen - every time. Making sure the people in our life and on the street are aware and on board with what we're working on before the greetings happens - without exception. It has been a bit of extra work but I'm feeling really hopeful that if we continue this eventually it will happen much more naturally and require less management.


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## elrohwen

Congrats to TGKvr and NissaM on the recent success!

I have some long winded musings today. I've been doing some thinking and I'm trying to figure out why I'm having success with Watson in agility when we didn't before. Some things are obvious (controlling dogs as distraction far more than it was in a group class). But other things are not so obvious. He is kind of a weird dog to figure out sometimes. He can be extremely straight forward in some respects, and in others you're scratching your head wondering what in the world he's thinking.

Back when we were having so many issues with classes, one of the main suggestions we got was to increase rate of reward. Reward after every obstacle, keep him in the game. Turns out that wasn't helpful for him at all - he still ran away on a regular basis despite all the rewarding. Now I only reward him at the beginning of a sequence (for not leaving me while we set up) and at the end and he is perfectly happy with that. Granted they are short sequences, but he has zero problems doing 4 or 5 obstacles before getting a reward. If anything, rewarding after every obstacle hurt us, because sometimes he turns to me expecting a reward instead of looking for the next obstacle (but I think we're working through that habit). I think he finds the flow of it rewarding, which is exactly what you want in agility. He doesn't need a treat after every jump once he understands his job.

In a way I've given him more choice. He is off leash more, and can choose to look around and even wander off slightly if we are moving on to a new activity, but he must come back when I call or ask him to move with me. Previously I was extremely controlling, as you'd expect with someone who has a dog who runs off and visits all of the other dogs (who were not necessarily friendly). He was never off leash moving between one thing and another, and we were physically connected (via leash, or me giving him treats) extremely often. I don't know what else I could have done in that group class setting, honestly, but that death grip I had on controlling him (which was recommended) certainly didn't help. I think now he feels more of a sense of responsibility to stay with me, instead of frustration at my controlling him.

I don't really know what the secret is now. He does get a mild correction for blowing me off when I call. And distractions are better controlled to a level he can handle. But in 2 months he can work with another dog also working in the ring. After 6 months of classes he couldn't work with other dogs standing on leash as far away as possible. Mostly I think it's helped immensely to really focus on the areas he struggles with and work through his struggles until he gets it. In a group class you get a quick turn, and if your dog doesn't get it in that time you kind of move on to the next dog and let it go, hoping to work on it again in another class. So we never worked anything through to the point where he was confident, and I think he had this overall feeling of not being quite sure what was expected of him, and that made agility stressful. Now we will focus on one simple exercise for as long as it takes for him to understand, and once he understands he is extremely happy to stay with me and to work and add on the next step. We are basically training in class like we train at home, and he is comfortable with that.

Just thinking out loud. He is a weird dog. I've seen enough other dogs go through classes to realize he's kind of a special snowflake, but for so long I couldn't crack the code and was so frustrated that nobody could help us. It's not like he's *that* weird or low drive or spooky or whatever. I feel like this experience has really helped our relationship in general which is awesome. I am finally explaining what I want, and he is finally understanding and we are both having a lot more fun.

ETA: Having him makes me appreciate how easy Hazel is. She is the dog who goes to group classes, learns the things, does well, doesn't stress, and makes steady progress. I don't have to over think or search for new trainers or different methods because she goes with the flow. And it makes me realize that all of the issues with Watson are not because I'm a worse trainer than everybody else in class - they are a combination of a tricky dog and a novice handler. I will always have to put more thought into how I do things with him.


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## Co-Jack

I have to retame my pup every freaking morning, sometimes more than once in a day.... Omg, is his brain ever set to "shuffle!" And let's not even talk about my attempts to talk a trainer into accepting Loose Leash Somersaults as progress in Loose Leash Walking.... I mean he was staying with me, not pulling on the leash. I viewed it as progress! Lastly, he also gets bored in class, throws himself to the floor only to flip onto his back and peer at the teacher upside down. Poor trainer, she would look at us and I could see her trying to swallow guffaw. The rest of the class just let the laughter rip, lol


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## elrohwen

Co-Jack said:


> Lastly, he also gets bored in class, throws himself to the floor only to flip onto his back and peer at the teacher upside down. Poor trainer, she would look at us and I could see her trying to swallow guffaw. The rest of the class just let the laughter rip, lol


My adult dog used to do this all the time if he was bored. He did it once in a conformation handling seminar right when the speaker, a Westminster winning handler, came to examine him as the "judge". He just melted out of my hands and onto the floor and started rolling around. Nothing I could do but laugh.


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## DogtorWho15

Welp, I have officially failed as a dog owner.... 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j4kyN-_y68
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVQM36gmAE8


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## Nissa M

Co-Jack said:


> Lastly, he also gets bored in class, throws himself to the floor only to flip onto his back and peer at the teacher upside down. Poor trainer, she would look at us and I could see her trying to swallow guffaw. The rest of the class just let the laughter rip, lol





elrohwen said:


> My adult dog used to do this all the time if he was bored. He did it once in a conformation handling seminar right when the speaker, a Westminster winning handler, came to examine him as the "judge". He just melted out of my hands and onto the floor and started rolling around. Nothing I could do but laugh.


I laughed at these. My dog does this in classes too, except he's pretty extreme about it. We were at a mock Rally trial when he was a bit younger and he started on this just as we were waiting to start. For Pai I think it may be a combination of boredom ('cmoonnn this is so borrring') and frustration ('well if we're not going to go than I'm going to... do this (rolls over) and this! (wiggles around) and THIS! (kicks legs in the air and yipps repeatedly)'. And I'm pretty sure he's laughing at me while he's doing it.


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## Nissa M

elrohwen said:


> In a way I've given him more choice. He is off leash more, and can choose to look around and even wander off slightly if we are moving on to a new activity, but he must come back when I call or ask him to move with me. Previously I was extremely controlling, as you'd expect with someone who has a dog who runs off and visits all of the other dogs (who were not necessarily friendly). He was never off leash moving between one thing and another, and we were physically connected (via leash, or me giving him treats) extremely often. I don't know what else I could have done in that group class setting, honestly, but that death grip I had on controlling him (which was recommended) certainly didn't help. I think now he feels more of a sense of responsibility to stay with me, instead of frustration at my controlling him.


Have been thinking a lot about this lately. Do you think that had you taken (or had you been ready to take) the approach of giving him more choice and reducing the intensity of your control (management?) of him, but at an earlier stage in your training (say, 1 year ago), the outcome would have been the same? How much of what you're seeing now do you think relates to you (your attitude, your skill as a handler) vs. the approach vs. his age and maturity?


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## DogtorWho15

welp... I have officially failed as a dog owner... lol
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j4kyN-_y68


----------



## Co-Jack

Nissa M said:


> I laughed at these. My dog does this in classes too, except he's pretty extreme about it. We were at a mock Rally trial when he was a bit younger and he started on this just as we were waiting to start. For Pai I think it may be a combination of boredom ('cmoonnn this is so borrring') and frustration ('well if we're not going to go than I'm going to... do this (rolls over) and this! (wiggles around) and THIS! (kicks legs in the air and yipps repeatedly)'. And I'm pretty sure he's laughing at me while he's doing it.


Yup, we do the lying on our back to kick our feeters in the air and yip too... We also like to grab the leash in our mouth and pull our she human out the classroom door... oh and let's not forget playing in the draperies lining the walls of the classroom.... *face palm*


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## CptJack

Molly and I are doing our first CAT session this afternoon. I'll update here (or the reactivity thread) when I get back. 

I'm both excited and nervous. And so, so incredibly grateful to the people who are helping us with this.


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## CptJack

I. Love. This. 

I love this so much.

She didn't do very much reacting - not because it was in any way prevented but just because she didn't. I think that the other dog was just such an awesome dog was most of it, really. But - it was fantastic. We ended the session with her being able to follow the other dog back to our car with no muss, no fuss, no drama or noise and quite a bit of loose, happy, body language. 

We've still got a ways to go and need to do this with more dogs and at least one other setting but honestly? This is good. This is so, so good. I like this method and it makes *SENSE* to me.


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## Co-Jack

CptJack said:


> I. Love. This.
> 
> I love this so much.
> 
> She didn't do very much reacting - not because it was in any way prevented but just because she didn't. I think that the other dog was just such an awesome dog was most of it, really. But - it was fantastic. We ended the session with her being able to follow the other dog back to our car with no muss, no fuss, no drama or noise and quite a bit of loose, happy, body language.
> 
> We've still got a ways to go and need to do this with more dogs and at least one other setting but honestly? This is good. This is so, so good. I like this method and it makes *SENSE* to me.



May I ask what method you are using, are you working with a trainer or behaviorist? 

I have an appointment scheduled with a behaviorist in a few weeks, and I'm doubting myself about it... People are like just let him be reactive around other dogs... Like I'm not accepting him as he is or something... It's confusing! He likes to play at the park, has a group of about a dozen friends, he goes to the groomer fine; the reactivity only happens in a class situation or the vets office.


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## CptJack

Co-Jack said:


> May I ask what method you are using, are you working with a trainer or behaviorist?
> 
> I have an appointment scheduled with a behaviorist in a few weeks, and I'm doubting myself about it... People are like just let him be reactive around other dogs... Like I'm not accepting him as he is or something... It's confusing! He likes to play at the park, has a group of about a dozen friends, he goes to the groomer fine; the reactivity only happens in a class situation or the vets office.


I'm using CAT - Constructional Aggression Treatment.

I am absolutely working with a trainer who has a background in behavior stuff for this - and is also, incidentally, my agility trainer and knows Molly well. 

As for letting it go/not letting it go - I wrote a thing for FB (it's locked there) that kind of explains my thoughts and feelings about it, for my particular dog. 



> It’s a Molly day. She’s taking up a lot of mental real estate tonight - and physical real estate, too, since she’s sprawled all over my feet.
> 
> Molly is an awesome dog. She’s fun. She’s sweet. She’s smart. She works hard, and she plays hard. She makes me laugh, and she tries really hard to make me happy. She likes to cuddle. She loves chasing and playing with my other dogs, and she’ll gentle down or ramp up and adjust her play style based on the dog she’s playing with. She’s just a good, happy, dog.
> 
> When we’re in public and there’s another dog around, she’s Cujo.
> 
> People have asked why I didn’t socialize her. I did; Molly went everywhere with us, for months. I socialized her more than I’ve socialized any other dog I’ve ever owned. Socialization is about positive experiences. Molly got her butt handed to her by an off leash cattle dog. Unknown people and dogs became scary.
> 
> She’s made progress - a lot of it. She started agility classes when she was just shy of 8 months old, and started out behind barriers in class - then we retook it. We took Beginner and are about to wrap up intermediate. She’s 16 months old, now. She’s gone to a couple of show ‘n goes and at the last one ran an entire course. She can stay with me and work off leash, now. We can certainly go to the park, or take a walk and pass people.
> 
> She’s a good dog.
> 
> But sometimes she’s still Cujo - that dog at the end of the leash, growling and barking and seemingly out of control. I can get her back faster than I used to, for sure. She’s come a long way. She works her butt off for me.
> 
> We’re going to do some behavioral modification work when she’s out of classes and agility has calmed down some. When we - and the trainer - have the time. I hope it’ll help her.
> 
> It isn’t about agility. It isn’t about being able to compete, though that’s the goal I’ll move toward both because that’s what the trainer I trust suggested, and because I think it’s the most challenging environment for her. It’s just about giving this young, energetic, really great dog a life that’s not limited by her fears.
> 
> And, really, it’s a little bit about hoping that maybe someday other people can see the same dog I do. The happy, silly, smart, sweet dog who tries her heart out.
> 
> Mostly, I just want my dog to be happy.


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## Laurelin

So I've been slacking lately like a lot. But... Hank's handstand on the wall is getting really good lately!

You know... useful training. 

I have never heard of CAT before. Hope it works for you guys, I'll have to do some reading on what it is.


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## KayaScout

I will gladly join this group! Although, right now I am very interested in the Look At That! exercises. What are those?! They seem like magic that will focus my little Kaya on me and training instead of THE ENTIRE WORLD!


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## ireth0

Been practicing pivots to the right and Luna seems to be getting better footing so yay!


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## elrohwen

KayaScout said:


> I will gladly join this group! Although, right now I am very interested in the Look At That! exercises. What are those?! They seem like magic that will focus my little Kaya on me and training instead of THE ENTIRE WORLD!


There are two ways to do LAT. You can cue it, or not cue it. Leslie McDevitt writes about it in her book "Control Unleashed" and suggests doing both. So a cued LAT would be Look at that dog! - yes! - treat. Uncued would be where your dog looks at the other dog, then you say yes! and treat. 

I pretty much only use uncued only at this point. Either my dog looks at something exciting and I mark it, or he will look at something exciting and then right back to me like "see! do you see that dog? where's my treat?" Occasionally I will re-cue it once he's started the game. "Oh yeah, you saw that dog? Where's the dog?"

I don't like the cued version for my dog because he started to get excited whenever I would say it. So he'd get all tense and start scanning around and not even necessarily see what I was trying to point out which defeated the purpose. 

I don't know that LAT is magic, though it's very good for dogs who are reactive. Instead of telling the dog to only focus on you, you'll allowing them to look at the thing that makes them nervous or excited, and then rewarding. Eventually getting the reward becomes more important than the looking. But I don't think it improves general focus that much if your dog is sniffing or just kind of scanning around the room not paying attention to you.


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## KayaScout

Thanks! Hm, well it might be at least something to look into. If nothing else but to give her brain something else to do and to engage her in the rest of the world appropriately instead of being very reactive and having no control over it.


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## elrohwen

KayaScout said:


> Thanks! Hm, well it might be at least something to look into. If nothing else but to give her brain something else to do and to engage her in the rest of the world appropriately instead of being very reactive and having no control over it.


It's very good for reactivity or anything where you can find a trigger. Honestly, just "clicking the trigger" works pretty well a lot of the time.


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## TGKvr

So things I (re)discovered. My dog does not care for live bands or fireworks. Guns are OK though. So weird.


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## ireth0

Just need to brag for a second because I need to focus on something positive.

I really love how easily I can move Luna around with just my body language. It feels almost like dancing, and at this point I mostly know exactly what to do to get her where I want her to be so I don't really have to think about it. Just by the way I lean, or hand gesture or move into/away from her/etc. It's gotten very fluid and I sometimes take it for granted but really it feels super cool.


----------



## taquitos

ireth0 said:


> Just need to brag for a second because I need to focus on something positive.
> 
> I really love how easily I can move Luna around with just my body language. It feels almost like dancing, and at this point I mostly know exactly what to do to get her where I want her to be so I don't really have to think about it. Just by the way I lean, or hand gesture or move into/away from her/etc. It's gotten very fluid and I sometimes take it for granted but really it feels super cool.


That's awesome 

This is one of the things I find the most frustrating when I first get to know a new dog lol! Meeko and I have an understanding so I don't need to touch him to move him at all.

With dogs I pet sit/foster it always takes a while to figure out how to do this lol!


----------



## CptJack

CAT session two today. 

Molly's making really impressive progress. Last session was 90 minutes and 47 trials before she followed the female lab back to our car. This time it was 14 trials, less than half an hour and she took a walk with the other dog around part of the park. Her general reactivity levels are way down, her STRESS levels are way down. 

Plan right now is another 4-6 dogs individually and then we start on groups. 

But THIS IS WORKING YOU GUYS.


----------



## Laurelin




----------



## Hector4

Laurelin said:


>


he should be doing parkour



CptJack said:


> CAT session two today.
> 
> Molly's making really impressive progress. Last session was 90 minutes and 47 trials before she followed the female lab back to our car. This time it was 14 trials, less than half an hour and she took a walk with the other dog around part of the park. Her general reactivity levels are way down, her STRESS levels are way down.
> 
> Plan right now is another 4-6 dogs individually and then we start on groups.
> 
> But THIS IS WORKING YOU GUYS.


Are there any videos of her progress?


----------



## CptJack

I don't have videos, unfortunately. Just not enough hands to do the thing and record it - not that I really do much video anyway, but this time I actually wanted to. 

Total side note: Doing it again this coming weekend. So that will be three, a week apart.

Most people advise doing this hardcore - like pushing all the way through in one sessions, so there are some practical limitations on us. I also feel like I should point out that some of the early trials resulted in dogs who were shut down. The method changed since then and that's why you look for OTHER behavior not just a lack of reaction to use as the signal to move the dog away. 

The level of observation going on in this on the part of the trainer is unreal. Awesome and I'm learning so much about Molly in the process, but man. Definitely something best done by someone really, really dog savvy.


----------



## Eenypup

FINALLY got Bennie to figure out the concept of putting something into her toy box!! Ended up being able to capture her bringing her new favorite squeaky ball to the toy box (don't think she realized what she was doing) and immediately captured the behavior and we had a TREAT PARTY.

So now she's really getting the concept, but only with the squeaky balls! Silly girl still thinks all other toys should be picked up and thrown in the air. But proud she can finally put anything in her toy box really, even though it's just a fun trick!


----------



## ireth0

Eenypup said:


> FINALLY got Bennie to figure out the concept of putting something into her toy box!! Ended up being able to capture her bringing her new favorite squeaky ball to the toy box (don't think she realized what she was doing) and immediately captured the behavior and we had a TREAT PARTY.
> 
> So now she's really getting the concept, but only with the squeaky balls! Silly girl still thinks all other toys should be picked up and thrown in the air. But proud she can finally put anything in her toy box really, even though it's just a fun trick!


That's awesome! Good job Bennie!

Something interesting from class last night, the leash throws off Luna's hand touches. I was asking her to touch my left hand and I had the leash loop hanging around my wrist/partially on my hand and she totally didn't know what I wanted. Started throwing out sits and downs and shake and whatever else, hahaha. 

So I started by having it farther back on my arm and gradually worked on moving it forward. The littlest things!


----------



## Laurelin

Messing with Hank after class. These are actually his first tries with this cue. He automatically assumed jump, which is funny. We've never worked this before.






Also THIS. This is a prime example of why I talk about Summer being really freaking loud.


----------



## Dogsignalfire

Laurelin said:


> Messing with Hank after class. These are actually his first tries with this cue. He automatically assumed jump, which is funny. We've never worked this before.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also THIS. This is a prime example of why I talk about Summer being really freaking loud.


Hank looks super fun! 
I'm more amused that Summer's bark literally sounds like "bark! bark! bark!" letter by letter bahaha


----------



## Laurelin

You know what is so funny? I didn't even realize Summer was barking until I played the video back and watched it. I just tune it out apparently very well. 

She is probably the most amusing thing in that video. Old Lady Dog is crazy.


----------



## Laurelin

Honestly I have really slacked on Summer's behavior once she hit double digits. LOL


----------



## DogtorWho15

So, this thread needs a revive! What better way to do that then to share progress?  

When I got Nova I wanted to work on the *fun* things, like tricks and such mostly. We did lay down and sit and walk/bike/jog correctly, how to wait for food but that was about it. So I blew of obedience and such until like she was like 7 months old, and even then didnt work on it much (totally regretting obviously but we're on the right track now XD, ya live and learn) 

Anywho, we have mostly been working on stay and come non stop cause I have found those are pretty dang important  Id rather have a dog come when called no matter, than a dog that can spin in circles LOL! 
Today we did amazing with her stay! I was able to get 25 feet away from her without her moving. Which is a lot of progress for us. Her come is becoming pretty reliable too so I am happy :3

Heres her staying


----------



## Hector4

DogtorWho15 said:


> So, this thread needs a revive! What better way to do that then to share progress?
> 
> When I got Nova I wanted to work on the *fun* things, like tricks and such mostly. We did lay down and sit and walk/bike/jog correctly, how to wait for food but that was about it. So I blew of obedience and such until like she was like 7 months old, and even then didnt work on it much (totally regretting obviously but we're on the right track now XD, ya live and learn)
> 
> Anywho, we have mostly been working on stay and come non stop cause I have found those are pretty dang important  Id rather have a dog come when called no matter, than a dog that can spin in circles LOL!
> Today we did amazing with her stay! I was able to get 25 feet away from her without her moving. Which is a lot of progress for us. Her come is becoming pretty reliable too so I am happy :3
> 
> Heres her staying


That's great. Come and stay are probably the 2 most important commands.


----------



## CheshireCatSmiles

Walking loose leash would be a godsend. I love to walk, so does my boy, but OMFG! Is he vile on walks. He wants to forge ahead, but walking with a tense leash for a few miles is exhausting mentally and physically. I've tried everything from positive training (stop in place, reverse methods), Gentle Leader and Easy Walk Harness and nothing stops this highly driven hunter. I dreaded talking him out on walks because of it and with the weather being so bad lately, I can't afford a slip on some ice in such an isolated area. I've resorted to a prong collar (yes, not a popular choice, neither was it my first), and instructed on how to use it by his trainer and he's finely settled down enough for us to enjoy our walks. We're still training, hopefully by summer he'll be pro enough to go without the prong collar. 

Impulse control for him, aside from prey drive, hasn't been an issue. He's two, but acts like he's twelve, he's pretty dumpy inside and acts like a stereotypical lazy cat. 
Prey drive is our next big project, it's manageable, but he really, REALLY wants to chase deer. 

Smaller projects include recall, prolong stay, getting use to people and learning property boundary.


----------



## Pomom

First clicker class with Sybbie tomorrow! She has a sort of come and a sort of sit and an excellent heel already, but this will be our first class since she joined Pippin's and my family Dec. 28. She was a conformation dog in her former home so the heel was already there. But I thought the sit was a lost cause until she started offering it when we were trying to learn leave it. My goal is to put a CGN on her and maybe try Rally but I really don't know if that's possible. Her food drive is not high and toy drive non existent, so we will see if she has the get up to do anything. Plus, as CptJack and other wise people pointed out in my thread, conformation didn't teach her how to think for herself and test things out til she finds the right answer. That is really the first thing to overcome before I get ambitious. It doesn't really matter if she can go anywhere with training, she is super easy to live with. It's just for my pride more than anything, but a girl can dream.


----------



## MysticRealm

Good luck in your class!
I took the first video of my pom pup doing some training (just running through the things he knows). Beg was just introduced today and he doesn't quite have the balance for it yet. I also realized watching the video that I need to do the release 'normal' ('ok') then praise after the ok/release. I didn't really realize I was putting the 2 together and I think they need to be separated or he will learn to only release to 'oooooookkkkkkkkk' (My mini poo follows along, except for the beg, he never learned to beg without the food being in front of him)


----------



## Pomom

Sybbie's first clicker class was so great! And she did awesome!

First we did "stay". We started by just doing sit (which she totally has now!) and delaying the click/treat. She did this no problem unless I waited a little too long then she'd spin around and bark. Lol. After that we tried "stay" with distance. Sybbie was not ready for this and I couldn't even shift my weight without her moving but that's ok. We'll work on it.

Next we did "touch." (Target) The instructor picked Sybbie to demonstrate with and she did it right away, even if the target was far away and/or moving! When I tried it with her she did awesome. Could be useful for going through doors which often poses a problem for her.

After that we did "leave it" and Sybbie did well. We had already been practicing this. dropping treats from a height got her too excited though. She wouldn't touch a treat in hand unless released, or a treat placed on the floor, but bouncing treats was too much for her. I could do it partially if I dropped the treat from about knee height. Gonna work on that. such a useful skill. I wouldn't have to worry if Pippin dropped his pills.

Finally we did "down." I thought she would have problems with this cuz when I try to lure her with a treat she often backs off if I move it, thinking I am playing "leave it." But again she surprised me and made me proud. I got her in a sit, had her follow a treat to the ground and boom! Down!

By the end I felt sure she was gonna throw up or poop everywhere. All we did was eat treats for an hour!

It was so fun and I was amazed at how well she did!


----------



## Dogsignalfire

(Kind of just a ramble)

My nose work instructor kind of reset the class back to "Intro to Nose Work" or just working with containers again since the classes started up last week (there was a month break while she went to Switzerland), since there were two new students. I think that I'll only go once a month now, or just inquire when she would start the class on vehicles/exteriors? Lancer's already very, very good with containers (in class and at home-- not outside at a park), and appears very familiar with birch. The five or so dogs in the class are at various levels, so it really does just make sense to have all the dogs in one class- but then we can only work on one type of search at a time, which apparently stayed containers. 

I figured that I shouldn't try exteriors or vehicles again outside (not at home) until the instructor decides to, because I want to see what she has to say about Lancer... and I'm also very curious how he would do in the class setting, since he already knows the instructor. He might just do well! Or completely shut down again and start from square one... I totally have no clue.

I don't think I can just request vehicles/exteriors sooner than she thinks Lancer ready, because I know the instructor has a very strong belief in the training philosophy of building a strong foundation over a very long-term, very slow-paced before moving onto the next step. Buuut she also knows that I'm a "in a hurry to do everything" kind of person already LOL. I remember already asking her about when we can start vehicles and exteriors like in Lancer's 3rd class there back in October/November. aaahaha

So I should just wait around for her to think Lancer is ready? I'm not sure where to go from here, because I would like an experienced trainer's opinions on Lancer for how he acts/nervousness outside.


----------



## elrohwen

Dogsignalfire said:


> So I should just wait around for her to think Lancer is ready? I'm not sure where to go from here, because I would like an experienced trainer's opinions on Lancer for how he acts/nervousness outside.


It's tricky and really depends on a lot of factors. For an experienced NW handler, I would tell them to trust their gut on when the dog is ready. No harm in trying a vehicle or exterior hide and if the dog isn't ready, he's not ready and you don't have to do it again. 

For an inexperienced handler, I would say wait and lay the foundation. 

Our instructor was very slow and while I wanted to go faster, I didn't because I didn't know what I was doing yet. Now that I'm not new to this, I wouldn't have a problem with pushing my dog at home at a level I felt was appropriate, especially if I had a dog who was drivey and understood the game.


----------



## CptJack

There's a 'tricks with paws' challenge on another board I'm on. 

This was my goal for the month. Excuse the crap quality. I have no light in my dining room (where I do most indoor training) because reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2vIkE5QNoA


----------



## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> There's a 'tricks with paws' challenge on another board I'm on.
> 
> This was my goal for the month. Excuse the crap quality. I have no light in my dining room (where I do most indoor training) because reasons.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2vIkE5QNoA


Aww, she's so cute!


----------



## elrohwen

I actually have some progress to report! Watson has been in private agility lessons for months now, mostly to work on being off leash. He's now consistently working off leash in our lesson, even with another dog hanging around or when people come in for the next class. He's still having some focus issues, but at least he's not running off and leaving me completely. It's translated to Rally and he's able to work off leash there too, and almost never leaves me (working in close is a lot easier for him). I'm very proud of my little guy!

As far the actual agility training goes, he's completely over any issues with the dog walk and aframe, and loves those obstacles. He's till only jumping 12", but we're able to do short sequences now and he has a lot of fun with that. The teeter is still the biggest issue and while he's not panicking anymore, he has a long way to go.


----------



## Aussie27

I forgot how quick Cali picks up on things. It may be because she already knows "touch" (I point and she touches whatever it is with her paw), but I'm teaching her to put both paws on my raised arm and she's already catching on after two quick training sessions. 

I'm also teaching her "jump" by having her jump over my leg and just clicking as she jumps. Not sure how long it'll take to have her catch onto that one but she did seem to be actually jumping over my leg, instead of hopping up on my calf then jumping off, by the end of it.

Also going to look up some impulse control games and crate games. Tried the "it's your choice" game and she was having trouble with it... resorting to backing up and barking versus patiently waiting. So I'll have to try that again as well. I'm also planning on doing some recall practice the next time I feel like braving the cold weather... probably sometime this evening.


----------



## elrohwen

Aussie27 said:


> Tried the "it's your choice" game and she was having trouble with it... resorting to backing up and barking versus patiently waiting.


My guess is that you're not clicking fast enough and she's getting frustrated.


----------



## Aussie27

I'll try to click faster next time we play and see if it helps! Thank you for the advice!  My training skills are a bit rusty since it's been the start of January that I've been home to train her, so hopefully I'll get better at clicking and treating again by the end of the break.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> My guess is that you're not clicking fast enough and she's getting frustrated.


yeah, this. At the start of that game mark pretty much the INSTANT they move away. Then build some duration with it, but it takes time. Remember, what you're actually clicking for is backing off/leaving it alone. That might just be a glance away at start.


----------



## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I actually have some progress to report! Watson has been in private agility lessons for months now, mostly to work on being off leash. He's now consistently working off leash in our lesson, even with another dog hanging around or when people come in for the next class. He's still having some focus issues, but at least he's not running off and leaving me completely. It's translated to Rally and he's able to work off leash there too, and almost never leaves me (working in close is a lot easier for him). I'm very proud of my little guy!
> 
> As far the actual agility training goes, he's completely over any issues with the dog walk and aframe, and loves those obstacles. He's till only jumping 12", but we're able to do short sequences now and he has a lot of fun with that. The teeter is still the biggest issue and while he's not panicking anymore, he has a long way to go.


This is awesome! Dorky Spaniel is growing up - a LOT!

Everything training wise I have going on right now besides trick training is agility stuff. Still working on duration with heel for Molly, I guess. Otherwise it's pretty much silly tricks and agility. And most of it's actually BORING stuff, or stuff I've sort of cycled through building criteria for, for a while - like got bored with and wandered off. I'm just really not doing much interesting these days.


----------



## CrystalGSD

I'm pretty proud of Hero's recall right now. I called him off of a dead bird the other day and I was like dang, what a good dog! I do need to raise the value of the food reward, though, before he decides what I'm giving him right now is too boring.

I need to work on both Hero and Crystal's stays. For some reason, stay is something that I know I should teach but is way too boring for me to put in the effort. But, you know what, I'm going to force myself to teach it, because I feel like stay is something that'd probably very helpful in the future.

Also, I need to figure out how to teach Crystal a reliable recall. Her recall is atrocious. But I have no idea how to teach it? It's super solid indoors but terrible inside, also she's leash smart so she knows when she's on a long line and when she's not. Food has 0 value to her when she's outdoors, and she's not toy motivated. I'm kind of stuck. I would love to be able to walk her off leash like I do with Hero but she just doesn't listen at all outdoors.


----------



## Prozax

Our goal is stop eating food from the ground. She eats so much bread, I am really afraid it might do something bad to her. People put out slices of bread for the pigeons, for some reason. There's bread EVERYWHERE in our neighborhood. 

So we're working on not eating everything in sight. So far, we've done.. 0 progress outside. Inside, she's learned not to jump on us while we are carrying food. That's slow progress but I'll take it


----------



## Pomom

Prozax said:


> Our goal is stop eating food from the ground. She eats so much bread, I am really afraid it might do something bad to her. People put out slices of bread for the pigeons, for some reason. There's bread EVERYWHERE in our neighborhood.
> 
> So we're working on not eating everything in sight. So far, we've done.. 0 progress outside. Inside, she's learned not to jump on us while we are carrying food. That's slow progress but I'll take it


This is a problem in my neighbourhood too. We share a driveway with our neighbor and I have repeatedly asked him to put the bread in his yard, not the driveway. His response? "Dogs don't eat bread." But then I also once told him there was a dead mouse on his lawn and he picked it up in his hand and declared it was "just grass." I also see on the sidewalk: chicken bones, pizza, a plethora of cigarette butts, used Kleenex and napkins etc.

May I suggest checking out the the sticky thread called "Training Tactics"? It is on its way to helping us.


----------



## Dogsignalfire

elrohwen said:


> It's tricky and really depends on a lot of factors. For an experienced NW handler, I would tell them to trust their gut on when the dog is ready. No harm in trying a vehicle or exterior hide and if the dog isn't ready, he's not ready and you don't have to do it again.
> 
> For an inexperienced handler, I would say wait and lay the foundation.
> 
> Our instructor was very slow and while I wanted to go faster, I didn't because I didn't know what I was doing yet. Now that I'm not new to this, I wouldn't have a problem with pushing my dog at home at a level I felt was appropriate, especially if I had a dog who was drivey and understood the game.


Lancer's actually great for a noob in exteriors and vehicles when it's in our yard or in our garage. It's just really gross in our garage because he searched everywhere and charged into cobwebs and under gross places last time we tried LOL. But once he's anywhere not on our property, he's anxious so doesn't want to play anything except for ball. The only exception is inside the nosework classroom, since he already knows the instructor and the people sitting there, so he's great in class too.

I guess I am waiting it out and seeing when she might think Lancer ready to test out vehicles/exteriors in class? I wonder if I should bring it up or just keep waiting. I'm 95% sure her answer will also still be to continue to build foundation though.


----------



## elrohwen

Dogsignalfire said:


> Lancer's actually great for a noob in exteriors and vehicles when it's in our yard or in our garage. It's just really gross in our garage because he searched everywhere and charged into cobwebs and under gross places last time we tried LOL. But once he's anywhere not on our property, he's anxious so doesn't want to play anything except for ball. The only exception is inside the nosework classroom, since he already knows the instructor and the people sitting there, so he's great in class too.
> 
> I guess I am waiting it out and seeing when she might think Lancer ready to test out vehicles/exteriors in class? I wonder if I should bring it up or just keep waiting. I'm 95% sure her answer will also still be to continue to build foundation though.


That's tricky then. If she really wants to go slow in class, not much you can do about it. We spent 12 weeks searching for food until I was bored to tears, but that's how she did it. In the future I'll train foundations at home and jump into a more advanced class, or just do it completely on my own and skip classes. But with my first dog I didn't feel like I was in a position to go my own way.

New locations is hard! I do agree that for an environmental dog you can never how too much foundation work before they are asked to work some place that's stressful. Watson struggles a lot with the environment and focus in new places, so we built up his NW skills gradually. That is still by far the hardest part for him and the first thing that falls apart in trials when he is tired and stressed at the end of the day.


----------



## Dogsignalfire

elrohwen said:


> That's tricky then. If she really wants to go slow in class, not much you can do about it. We spent 12 weeks searching for food until I was bored to tears, but that's how she did it. In the future I'll train foundations at home and jump into a more advanced class, or just do it completely on my own and skip classes. But with my first dog I didn't feel like I was in a position to go my own way.
> 
> New locations is hard! I do agree that for an environmental dog you can never how too much foundation work before they are asked to work some place that's stressful. Watson struggles a lot with the environment and focus in new places, so we built up his NW skills gradually. That is still by far the hardest part for him and the first thing that falls apart in trials when he is tired and stressed at the end of the day.


Oh man, 12 weeks sounds like awhile with food LOL. My instructor spent about 8 weeks on food, and then paired for only two classes for Lancer, which I thought was super short, but I guess he already knows birch. I think I'll also train foundations at home in the future and jump into pairing. I also think it's really necessary as a beginner to start and go through the beginner's classes from the basics though. My instructor jumped into a lot of lectures on scent theory in the Intro classes, so I feel like learned a ton at once from knowing nothing.

I think Lancer sounds a lot like Watson, and that's what we have to do/have been doing. Any other way to build foundation other than repetition? 

I wish I had some new indoor environments to practice in other than home. He's less anxious indoors than outdoors, so I think it's a good place to start for him to practice retaining drive in new environments, but I have none. :s


----------



## elrohwen

Dogsignalfire said:


> Oh man, 12 weeks is a long time with food LOL. My instructor spent about 8 weeks on food, and then paired for only two classes for Lancer, which I thought was super short, but I guess he already knows birch. I think I'll also train foundations at home in the future and jump into pairing. I also think it's really necessary as a beginner to start and go through the beginner's classes from the basics though. My instructor jumped into a lot of lectures on scent theory in the Intro classes, so I feel like learned a ton at once from knowing nothing.


I'm using the Fenzi method now, which goes straight to odor. So no more pairing or searching for food at all. I know that most NW instructors wouldn't agree with it, so I'll have to get Hazel trained fairly well before we attend a class. Though I don't know if there are classes in the area we're moving so it might end up being all on our own anyway.



> I think Lancer sounds a lot like Watson, and that's what we have to do/have been doing. Any other way to build foundation other than repetition?


Repetition helps Watson a lot. If he is confident in his job and what he needs to do, he's much more likely to work. If he stresses and doesn't know what to do, he shuts down and starts staring around or sniffing or looking for something else to do. We we really drilled NW a lot in places he was comfortable and I didn't have any timeline to get us working outside or even trialing. Our instructor didn't recommend anybody trial until like 3 years of training. Which honestly was kind of stupid for most of the dogs and we trailed much sooner. But it meant there was zero pressure to push him. He actually did well in both trials, but failed because he couldn't relax in the car and by the end of 6 hours his brain was shot for the last two hides. But in the morning he did very well.



> I wish I had some new indoor environments to practice in other than home. He's less anxious indoors than outdoors, so I think it's a good place to start for him to practice retaining drive in new environments, but I have none. :s


I responded to your comment on the other thread. What about pet stores or tractor supply/feed stores? We've done most of our training away from home at the feed store and it works well. Lots of different environments, and our store at least is really low traffic.


----------



## Dogsignalfire

elrohwen said:


> I'm using the Fenzi method now, which goes straight to odor. So no more pairing or searching for food at all. I know that most NW instructors wouldn't agree with it, so I'll have to get Hazel trained fairly well before we attend a class. Though I don't know if there are classes in the area we're moving so it might end up being all on our own anyway.
> 
> Repetition helps Watson a lot. If he is confident in his job and what he needs to do, he's much more likely to work. If he stresses and doesn't know what to do, he shuts down and starts staring around or sniffing or looking for something else to do. We we really drilled NW a lot in places he was comfortable and I didn't have any timeline to get us working outside or even trialing. Our instructor didn't recommend anybody trial until like 3 years of training. Which honestly was kind of stupid for most of the dogs and we trailed much sooner. But it meant there was zero pressure to push him. He actually did well in both trials, but failed because he couldn't relax in the car and by the end of 6 hours his brain was shot for the last two hides. But in the morning he did very well.
> 
> I responded to your comment on the other thread. What about pet stores or tractor supply/feed stores? We've done most of our training away from home at the feed store and it works well. Lots of different environments, and our store at least is really low traffic.


Oh yeah, let me know how the Fenzi method goes! It makes me wonder if it's a fine method for nose work or other scent sports/games, but if it's reliable enough for actual detection dogs or dogs training in SAR. Where are you guys moving to?

Same with Lancer, he just starts looking around/walking randomly or focusing on something else. I currently don't have a timeline either, even though I did before. I always like to get to a goal as fast as possible, but I realized it's not possible with a Lancer haha. Gee, 3 years?? That is a very long time for something like nose work or elements specialty trials... LOL. Is your instructor also in SAR or training detection dogs? 

The brittany in my class has been in the class since she is 3 months old, and she is something like 1.5~2 years old now and hasn't trialed for NW1, not even an ORT yet. She's great with birch, and just starting on anise. It might be telling on how long our instructor also takes on building foundation.

I think Lancer would also be unfocused after 6 hours. I'm hoping to do an elements specialty first, since it's a shorter trial for half a day... Like an initiation test before NW1. 

Ah I'll check your other comment too! A tractor supply/home depot-ish store is a good idea- I can probably find a store that's low traffic. I might weird people out, but I hope we don't get kicked out for being weird LOL.


----------



## elrohwen

Our instructor was straight up NACSW and nothing else. She's done obedience and agility and stuff for years, but I get the impression she hasn't been doing NW much longer than many of her students. It's a new sport after all. I think she had a NW2 title on a dog when we started with her.

I really don't know anything about the SAR or detection world. I get the impression that SAR is very very different. Detection not so much. trainingjunkie worked detection dogs for real and she's only done the Fenzi method and loves it. She got ORTs on her dogs very quickly.

I hate the way the trials work. At the second trial, we were basically second to go in the morning, and 2nd to last in the afternoon. So he just sat there and stressed for 6 hours. Vehicles was last which is his hardest, and it was 3 huge trucks/SUVs, and it was super windy. His little brain just didn't work anymore. I'm kind of over trialing. My husband wants to go back and finish Watson's NW1 at least, but I just hate sitting there all day doing nothing, only to fail the last element. And then they make you sit there for another 1.5 hours while they screw around, get the scores, make speeches, blah blah. I'm not a very good sport after that long of a day (plus the drive) especially when I know I didn't get it. Haha

The people at our feed store thought it was super cool that we were doing scent detection!

We're moving up to the Albany area. Only 2 hours or so from where we are now. I found one place that is going to start a mini class, but of course it will be beginners. And the woman just stopped responding to my emails and questions so I really have no information on who the trainer is or anything.


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## Dogsignalfire

elrohwen said:


> Our instructor was straight up NACSW and nothing else. She's done obedience and agility and stuff for years, but I get the impression she hasn't been doing NW much longer than many of her students. It's a new sport after all. I think she had a NW2 title on a dog when we started with her.
> 
> I really don't know anything about the SAR or detection world. I get the impression that SAR is very very different. Detection not so much. trainingjunkie worked detection dogs for real and she's only done the Fenzi method and loves it. She got ORTs on her dogs very quickly.
> 
> I hate the way the trials work. At the second trial, we were basically second to go in the morning, and 2nd to last in the afternoon. So he just sat there and stressed for 6 hours. Vehicles was last which is his hardest, and it was 3 huge trucks/SUVs, and it was super windy. His little brain just didn't work anymore. I'm kind of over trialing. My husband wants to go back and finish Watson's NW1 at least, but I just hate sitting there all day doing nothing, only to fail the last element. And then they make you sit there for another 1.5 hours while they screw around, get the scores, make speeches, blah blah. I'm not a very good sport after that long of a day (plus the drive) especially when I know I didn't get it. Haha
> 
> The people at our feed store thought it was super cool that we were doing scent detection!
> 
> We're moving up to the Albany area. Only 2 hours or so from where we are now. I found one place that is going to start a mini class, but of course it will be beginners. And the woman just stopped responding to my emails and questions so I really have no information on who the trainer is or anything.


Ah I see- I think if I were in your shoes, I'd also be going for Fenzi's online classes too in that case LOL. I think if an instructor has extensive experience/active in SAR or training detection dogs, it would make in-person classes much more worthwhile. But even then, not all SAR or detection dog handlers necessarily have the best methods... We just have to try out the classes and judge for ourselves.

I hardly know anything about SAR either, other than it takes very solid nerves and drive. Not mentioning the level of fitness and survival skill required for the handler LOL. That's interesting, I think I'll buy(?) the Fenzi online course for it with my next puppy and try it out!

Oh my geez, that does not sound very efficient haha... Sounds like a very boring swim meet, except that we could leave right after our event. <__< Maybe you guys can even just do the element specialty trial for the hell of it. The trialing for the dogs is super short and a lot less hectic, but I don't know if you'd still need to stay until the end of the day for awards.

Sweet, I hope you guys love it! And that the woman eventually responds again .___. I've also had enough of waiting on people/getting ignored in emails lololol.


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## elrohwen

I don't care if the instructor has detection or SAR experience, actually. I have no desire to make any sort of career out of this or do anything beyond the sport of NW. I don't even like the sport that much to be honest, but Watson loves it and if he loves it we'll do it. 

I just didn't like how rigid the instruction was, but that's how NACSW is right now. This is the method, we use it on all dogs, no questions. It's evolving but it's a new sport.


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## Dogsignalfire

elrohwen said:


> I don't care if the instructor has detection or SAR experience, actually. I have no desire to make any sort of career out of this or do anything beyond the sport of NW. I don't even like the sport that much to be honest, but Watson loves it and if he loves it we'll do it.
> 
> I just didn't like how rigid the instruction was, but that's how NACSW is right now. This is the method, we use it on all dogs, no questions. It's evolving but it's a new sport.


Agree, if the dogs love it, it's worth doing! I'd like to start SAR training in the future, if that's even possible... even observe their training first to get an idea.

How odd. I actually had no idea NACSW had a no-questions-asked method in itself. I think it would very much vary per dog.


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## elrohwen

It's mostly just the foundation part. After that it's not that different from anything else you'd see, except no specific trained alert which someone working detection would probably want. But they seem pretty rigid about starting with food and then pairing. If I told my NW instructor I was going straight to odor she'd probably try to tell me how that will never work, though it does work and people have proven it.


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## Dogsignalfire

elrohwen said:


> It's mostly just the foundation part. After that it's not that different from anything else you'd see, except no specific trained alert which someone working detection would probably want. But they seem pretty rigid about starting with food and then pairing. If I told my NW instructor I was going straight to odor she'd probably try to tell me how that will never work, though it does work and people have proven it.


I wonder what it was that got them so rigid in that belief? I'm sure starting from food works very well and that's great, but it doesn't mean Fenzi won't work too.


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## elrohwen

It's because they want it to be very beginner friendly. The FDSA method (which might actually come from Margaret Simek? Not sure who came up with it) requires shaping and training skills beyond most people with only a basic obedience class. So I see why they do it the way they do. But clearly there are other ways to teach it.


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## Aussie27

Just updating to say we played the game again yesterday and it worked out a lot better when I was faster with the clicker, no frustrated barking from Cali. 

Her new default trick when I'm waiting to give a command is now her "beg" trick... it used to be either "twirl" (to the right) or "spin" (to the left). Also going to have to do more sit work because she's started to lift her paws up for "beg" when I've only asked for a sit.


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## Pomom

I am a proud Momma. Sybbie had her second Foundations class tonight.

Tonight we started with loose leash walking. Sybbie obviously has this from conformation. Next, and this was interesting, you throw a treat far away and don't let the dog get it. They get their reward for responding to being tugged gently the other way. This teaches less resistance and tries to change the natural tendency to pull the other way when there is tension on the leash. Sybbie needs this as when I tug her she backs up and sometimes comes right out of her harness.

Next we did go to bed/mat. I don't think Sybbie knew for sure why she was being rewarded when she came to the mat. Sometimes I'd stand with the mat between her and me and she'd insist on going around it!

Last we did the hand target again and I think Sybbie has this now! I was throwing the treat really far away and she'd rush back and touch my hand! We even did this with extra distractions: the screens between the dogs taken down and she did super.

So now she has sit, target, come and heel.she is on her way with down, stay and leave it.go to mat well work on.mthis from a dog who 3 weeks ago, was confused about everything and didn't experiment to find the right answer. Dogs really are amazing creatures!


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## CrystalGSD

I'm working with using toys as a reward with Hero - he is very heavily food motivated but it would be nice to have an alternative. I mean, he likes toys, just not as much as he looooooves food. 

Also, guess who learned how to open doors? x_x yes, Hero. He figured it out today when he jumped at the door and accidentally hit the doorknob with his paw. And now he opens every single door in our house (which we previously used to block him from certain areas of our house), and especially he keeps going into the laundry room to steal socks. Does anyone know how to stop him from opening doors unless told to? I don't want to reprimand him for it, because it could come in handy later, but omg it is annoying when I don't want him to do it.


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## Prozax

I thought Eli to sit and wait for release in order to go through the door. She too, is a door opener. Unfortunately I don't think it will be useful for when you're not home. When I'm in the house, she's pretty good at just sitting by a door and waiting for it to open, mostly the kitchen door haha

When we first got her she opened every single door in the house, it was terrible. The claw marks around the handles made us take some action 



Pomom said:


> This is a problem in my neighbourhood too. We share a driveway with our neighbor and I have repeatedly asked him to put the bread in his yard, not the driveway. His response? "Dogs don't eat bread." But then I also once told him there was a dead mouse on his lawn and he picked it up in his hand and declared it was "just grass." I also see on the sidewalk: chicken bones, pizza, a plethora of cigarette butts, used Kleenex and napkins etc.
> 
> May I suggest checking out the the sticky thread called "Training Tactics"? It is on its way to helping us.


Thanks, she really needs some impulse control when food is involved. We've done it's yer choice ( very similar to the method described in the sticky) and she's getting just a little bit better, however she doesn't seem to generalize, but I supposed it's too early for that.


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## elrohwen

CrystalGSD said:


> I'm working with using toys as a reward with Hero - he is very heavily food motivated but it would be nice to have an alternative. I mean, he likes toys, just not as much as he looooooves food.


Hazel is the first dog I've owned who enjoys toys as a reward (at this point possibly more than food). It's been really fun!


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## CptJack

Molly's the first dog I've used toy rewards for - not the first I could have, probably, but first I did. 

There is a surprisingly steep learning curve (well, for me). It just felt WEIRD for a long time, or something, but man it's awesome.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Molly's the first dog I've used toy rewards for - not the first I could have, probably, but first I did.
> 
> There is a surprisingly steep learning curve (well, for me). It just felt WEIRD for a long time, or something, but man it's awesome.


I started using a lotus ball with Watson about 1.5 years ago, so that kind of eased me into it. We didn't have the tug aspect, but at least my brain connected throwing a toy with a reward. 

I'm still struggling to use a toy for more precise work. It's easy to use for something like agility - run through a tunnel, I throw your toy. But I'd like to use it for heeling like the IPO people do. So we're working on impulse control and not grabbing the toy until I say, even if it's moving right next to her head.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I started using a lotus ball with Watson about 1.5 years ago, so that kind of eased me into it. We didn't have the tug aspect, but at least my brain connected throwing a toy with a reward.
> 
> I'm still struggling to use a toy for more precise work. It's easy to use for something like agility - run through a tunnel, I throw your toy. But I'd like to use it for heeling like the IPO people do. So we're working on impulse control and not grabbing the toy until I say, even if it's moving right next to her head.


That's pretty much what took me a really long time. Molly's impulse control was good but it was almost a second trick. Working in timing and closer work with a toy was just harder for me in basically all the ways. 

And if it's SUPER precise I still default to just shoving food in her face sometimes.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> That's pretty much what took me a really long time. Molly's impulse control was good but it was almost a second trick. Working in timing and closer work with a toy was just harder for me in basically all the ways.
> 
> And if it's SUPER precise I still default to just shoving food in her face sometimes.


A couple weeks ago in obedience class, I asked to do recalls and heeling with toys on the ground as a distraction. SO HARD for Hazel. She could not recall through without trying to grab something, unless I stayed right in her face with a treat. But then for heeling I pulled out my own toy and held it in my right hand, and just did some LLW around the toys, rewarding her for ignoring them with the one in my hand. It went so much better and I felt like she really got it. That was pretty cool. She needs a better heel though. I'm still heavily luring with food to get the position/energy I want, but I need to wean off of that and get her understanding the position on her own before I can add a toy I think.


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## Canyx

elrohwen said:


> A couple weeks ago in obedience class, I asked to do recalls and heeling with toys on the ground as a distraction. SO HARD for Hazel. She could not recall through without trying to grab something, unless I stayed right in her face with a treat. But then for heeling I pulled out my own toy and held it in my right hand, and just did some LLW around the toys, rewarding her for ignoring them with the one in my hand. It went so much better and I felt like she really got it. That was pretty cool. She needs a better heel though. I'm still heavily luring with food to get the position/energy I want, but I need to wean off of that and get her understanding the position on her own before I can add a toy I think.


Super cool to have a toy motivated dog! 
How are you going about teaching heel with a toy? I am working on a formal heel as well, just for fun. I raised Soro to default GO for toys, only practicing impulse control if he is cued. So if I used a toy as a lure he would be swerving and lunging for it, and I don't necessarily want that to change. So I decided to approach heeling with targeting. I started by having him target my hand in position and heavily reinforced that, then added a step or two forward. I think it's been working well so far but I haven't filmed myself yet so it's hard to say. So I am curious to hear how the toy is working for you!

Other things I am working on:
-nosework
-crawl
-both paws up while sitting pretty (stick'em up?) I want my verbal cue to be "Whooo!" like a cheer, because why not!
-bow from down, going really well but just need to add speed
-crossing paws in other direction


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Super cool to have a toy motivated dog!
> How are you going about teaching heel with a toy? I am working on a formal heel as well, just for fun. I raised Soro to default GO for toys, only practicing impulse control if he is cued. So if I used a toy as a lure he would be swerving and lunging for it, and I don't necessarily want that to change. So I decided to approach heeling with targeting. I started by having him target my hand in position and heavily reinforced that, then added a step or two forward. I think it's been working well so far but I haven't filmed myself yet so it's hard to say. So I am curious to hear how the toy is working for you!


I'm focusing on two main parts.

First is teaching the heel position with food. Toys aren't precise enough to teach heel the way I want, so that work has all been done with food. I need to start weaning off the food so she fully understands the position, but I've been lazy about working on that. IME with Watson that is the hardest part. We are slowly slowly building bits and pieces.

The second part is working impulse control with toys independent of heeling. At this point I'm not using toys as a heeling lure because she will either jump for it, or move out wide expecting me to throw it or tug. Once she understands the position independently I can add the toy in. I'm doing a lot of work with the toy moving right by her head and having her wait to take it until I say and switching toys on cue. It's not going to be 100% default impulse control, there will be some contextual and verbal cues, but in general if we're training I would prefer she take toys only on cue. It will make things a lot easier. She has pretty good natural impulse control once she understands that's what you want.

ETA: I'm not sure how you would reward heeling without having the toy visible in some way with the dog not going for it. I guess you could keep it in a pocket and pull it out as a reward, but it's just easier to have it out in one hand already for faster rewarding.


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## Canyx

That's the problem I had with methods involving looking up at the handler's eyes, a piece of food, or a toy. I've read some anecdotes about dogs having trouble once eye contact or the lure is removed, ie when you simply want to walk forward with your dog. I figure my hand will always be there which is why I went with targeting (plus I saw a video with a dog doing beautiful heeling that was trained with targeting). But I don't know! IPO people have had their methods that worked for years and to be honest I don't even really know what they do. My gut tells me those herding dogs have a thing for laser focusing on a specific thing in a way that sport dogs don't naturally do, but I can be wrong. I am just treating it like a trick and trying to figure out what works best for my dog.


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> That's the problem I had with methods involving looking up at the handler's eyes, a piece of food, or a toy. I've read some anecdotes about dogs having trouble once eye contact or the lure is removed, ie when you simply want to walk forward with your dog. I figure my hand will always be there which is why I went with targeting (plus I saw a video with a dog doing beautiful heeling that was trained with targeting). But I don't know! IPO people have had their methods that worked for years and to be honest I don't even really know what they do. My gut tells me those herding dogs have a thing for laser focusing on a specific thing in a way that sport dogs don't naturally do, but I can be wrong. I am just treating it like a trick and trying to figure out what works best for my dog.


I figure that the heeling I admire most is IPO style heeling, and from what I see they use almost exclusively luring at first. Honestly, I can't think of anybody who I've worked with or admired online who doesn't start with a food lure and use it for a while. At some point you do have to get the dog to focus on something else, but I think that what you can gain through the food lure is too valuable to want to chuck it completely. Doesn't have anything to do with herding vs sporting or any other group either - I've seen people be successful with goldens, labs, with mutts, you name it.


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## elrohwen

To be more specific, I think you can get the positional understanding without a lure, but I don't know any other way to get the heads up position, or a high level of precision (specifically around pivots, left about turns, etc).


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## Canyx

Good to know! You definitely know more than I do. I can't wait to see how Hazel does with it!


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## Canyx

elrohwen said:


> To be more specific, I think you can get the positional understanding without a lure, but I don't know any other way to get the heads up position, or a high level of precision (specifically around pivots, left about turns, etc).


Got it. And again the area where I go unconventional, since I taught pivoting some random way, can't even remember how I did it to be honest but Soro's is good...
I did reward heavily with food for being in position though, so that part is the same for me. I figure targeting was the best way for me to teach him how to keep his head up, which I anticipated as a problem if I faded the lure.


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Good to know! You definitely know more than I do. I can't wait to see how Hazel does with it!


There are a lot of people who start with a lure and then go to a prong to keep the dog in position once the lure has dropped. I'm not really interested in this method, I just feel like it's too manual, though I completely see why they do it. I've learned heeling from a lot of IPO folks through DVDs and just online conversations. I've also learned from some top local obedience people (the woman who won the Westminster ob competition this year) and some Bridget Carlson stuff online. The primary way I trained Watson's heel was through Denise Fenzi's methods, which are similar to the IPO people though she does it 100% off leash. I'm doing the same method with Hazel, though I've incorporated a few more methods to just build muscle memory for the type of heeling I want since she was a baby. 

There are two main parts. First is working on pivots and finding position. Lured at first, but this is the first place you fade the lure and get the dog working independently. She won't take any steps forward until she can pivot, and then we will take steps sideways and backwards as well as forward. It's a lot of build up to the first forward steps.

The second part is forward movement that is heavily lured. If we have to heel in class or something and take forward steps, it is heavily lured so that she is in the exact position with the exact energy I want. She's not really "learning" anything here, but it's reinforcing muscle memory, getting her body moving in the way I want, and she's not practicing being sloppy the way I let Watson practice being sloppy. The goal is that by the time she understands the position well enough to be moving a step or two forward without a lure, this muscle memory stuff will kick in.


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## Canyx

Really cool, what you're doing with Hazel! And the muscle memory aspect makes total sense. 
Thanks for sharing a snippet of your training! I hope you share vids in the future


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## elrohwen

I don't have any recent videos with either of, because we haven't been working on heeling that much (or I just haven't bothered to video), but I have some older ones that show a lot of the muscle memory type stuff with Hazel. She's at the point now where the lure is almost always above her head and not on her nose and we're trying to keep the same energy, adding turns, etc.

From August: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=377K7dIpAr0
From June: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5lIhNGnLQ0

I made this quick video for someone last year who asked how I taught the pivot part:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RixTPKRsuo

This is a little bit of heeling work with Watson from last year (I was mostly interested in working in a distracting location). I do have food in my hand for quick rewards, but my hand is at my waist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4Fg0oJrXrc

Here is some figure 8 work from last winter. He was being such a spazz, but it gives you an idea of how I use "corrections" (most resetting) when he's forging and all over the place. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZIZSMeaKY


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## ireth0

For our heeling we were taught to just mark and reward when the dog is in the generally correct position to start (I was told to think of it like a hoola hoop sized circle and slowly reduce the size), and then over time raise your criteria. That's also been paired with lots of independent reinforcing of eye contact, so the looking up has never really been something I've needed to work on independently.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> For our heeling we were taught to just mark and reward when the dog is in the generally correct position to start (I was told to think of it like a hoola hoop sized circle and slowly reduce the size), and then over time raise your criteria. That's also been paired with lots of independent reinforcing of eye contact, so the looking up has never really been something I've needed to work on independently.


Sounds like Dawn Jec's "choose to heel" method?


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Sounds like Dawn Jec's "choose to heel"?


Yea, that name was coming to mind but I didn't know if there were nuances to the technique that were different than what we have done. I haven't looked into her method specifically beyond what we have learned in classes.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea, that name was coming to mind but I didn't know if there were nuances to the technique that were different than what we have done. I haven't looked into her method specifically beyond what we have learned in classes.


I watched a dvd by her, but I don't remember anything beyond what you just said (basically click for position). I don't remember seeing a lot of specific techniques or anything. It was a pretty old dvd.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I watched a dvd by her, but I don't remember anything beyond what you just said (basically click for position). I don't remember seeing a lot of specific techniques or anything. It was a pretty old dvd.


Yea, the only other specifics were to reward where you want the dog to be (so if they're a few inches out from your leg make them come in to your leg to get the reward, don't take the reward to them) and only rewarding with the hand on the same side as the dog so you don't get them crossing in front of you anticipating the treat. 

Personally I can be sloppy with that last rule (I was super sloppy with it when we were doing heeling in freestyle because you change sides so often) and haven't experienced fallout, but I can see how it could cause problems.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea, the only other specifics were to reward where you want the dog to be (so if they're a few inches out from your leg make them come in to your leg to get the reward, don't take the reward to them) and only rewarding with the hand on the same side as the dog so you don't get them crossing in front of you anticipating the treat. Personally I can be sloppy with that last rule (I was super sloppy with it when we were doing heeling in freestyle because you change sides so often) and haven't experienced fallout, but I can see how it could cause problems.


Oh yes, reward position is extremely important. Maybe the most important thing? I think no matter what method you use, your placement of reward is going to make or break heeling. I try to always reward on the seam of my pants, in line with my hip.

It gets more complicated with toys since you're often throwing or dropping them. I've been watching more videos lately about the best way to deliver toys during heeling.


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## elrohwen

Canyx, not sure if you're seen this site, but it seems similar to the method you're using: http://www.loridrouin.com/twelvestepheeling.htm


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## elrohwen

This is also a good article that explains how I try to approach heeling: http://denisefenzi.com/2014/05/07/behavior-chains-part-12-early-heeling/


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## elrohwen

Canyx, this is an awesome video about reward placement with toys for heeling: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idF5Yu48Vq0

Some of it requires one of those magnetic ball things, or a toy you can otherwise attach to yourself.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> I don't care if the instructor has detection or SAR experience, actually. I have no desire to make any sort of career out of this or do anything beyond the sport of NW. I don't even like the sport that much to be honest, but Watson loves it and if he loves it we'll do it.
> 
> I just didn't like how rigid the instruction was, but that's how NACSW is right now. This is the method, we use it on all dogs, no questions. It's evolving but it's a new sport.


My foundations classes were totally NACSW. The instructor was earning her CNWI with our class (first round of students at that facility) and it was slow for me but others needed to go that slow. But it wasn't as rigid as elrohwen's instructor sounded, "this is the one and only way, there will be no divergence from this exact method." The general idea remained the same but if something wasn't working for a dog things got changed up a bit to help make that dog successful. 

My foundations instructor was trained by the guy who is in charge of our travel classes who is ex-military detection dog handler, along with one of the other travel class instructors. Neither one of them really like doing the foundation classes haha, they leave that to the 3-4 other trainers they trained in nosework and got their CNWIs. I really enjoy having both perspectives from trainers to draw from. Both of the ex-military guys work as NACSW trial judges as well and know what rules the judges are instructed to follow (which does change as the sport grows and develops). 

I've already told the head instructor guy if and when I have a new dog their nosework training is going to be a mix of the Fenzi method and the NACSW method and he's cool with it. He even agrees the Fenzi method would probably have helped Jubel somewhat with his scavenging behavior... nothing would or will even completely stop his scavenging but not spending so much (or any) time on food would have really help reduce it. Seriously frequently his default when he smells odor is to check the floor/ground for dropped food because so often it is there if he looks. 



Outside of nosework.... Jubel and I had our first treibball class last night and it was a lot of fun. Haven't even introduced a ball yet, just a lot of basics/foundation work but Jubel was super excited to be back in a class working on new stuff again... well getting tons of treats shoved in his face is ALWAYS a great time as far as he's concerned. 

Pretty much we just worked on "touch" which he's solid on, but the goal was to transition from touching my hand to a folded up hand towel. Move that towel towards the ground, away from me, and the end goal is for him to touch and lay down on it. Of course with his excitement nose touches go to bites and when low enough pawing/scratching... so yeah, getting just a nose touch can be a challenge but he'll get it with some work. 

Also worked on getting a "finish," she didn't call it that but I'm pretty sure that is the rally/obedience term for it. Looping around on your side to line up in a sit right next to you. Jubel really thinks this is odd and he's supposed to be in FRONT of food lady to keep getting that food. So that is probably going to take the most work, he's getting it but pretty resistant to it cause yeah... it's different. End goal is to be able to do this on the left or right side but she said don't worry about sides right now just get the positioning/action down for now and we can add in the other side later. 

We also started with the basics of "push," getting them to push/roll a small object with their nose. In this case an empty oatmeal tube... Jubel was pretty interested in checking out the residue left behind in that tube vs. pushing the tube but he was starting to get it. Finding an object that DOESN'T smell like food will probably be helpful haha. 

Homework is to work on those things. Based on the space I have available to work with right now with kitchen remodel in progress we'll probably just focus on finishes which was also his weakest skill.


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## Canyx

Elrohwen, nice resources all around! I love the vid of the mal working for the toys. Beautiful work. And yes, the website you posted about hand targeting and heeling is where I got the idea from. Though looking at more vids right now (I really just checked out foundations) I am more impressed with the foundations than the later ones.


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## Pomom

dagwall said:


> Outside of nosework.... Jubel and I had our first treibball class last night and it was a lot of fun. Haven't even introduced a ball yet, just a lot of basics/foundation work but Jubel was super excited to be back in a class working on new stuff again... well getting tons of treats shoved in his face is ALWAYS a great time as far as he's concerned.
> 
> Pretty much we just worked on "touch" which he's solid on, but the goal was to transition from touching my hand to a folded up hand towel. Move that towel towards the ground, away from me, and the end goal is for him to touch and lay down on it. Of course with his excitement nose touches go to bites and when low enough pawing/scratching... so yeah, getting just a nose touch can be a challenge but he'll get it with some work.
> 
> Also worked on getting a "finish," she didn't call it that but I'm pretty sure that is the rally/obedience term for it. Looping around on your side to line up in a sit right next to you. Jubel really thinks this is odd and he's supposed to be in FRONT of food lady to keep getting that food. So that is probably going to take the most work, he's getting it but pretty resistant to it cause yeah... it's different. End goal is to be able to do this on the left or right side but she said don't worry about sides right now just get the positioning/action down for now and we can add in the other side later.
> 
> We also started with the basics of "push," getting them to push/roll a small object with their nose. In this case an empty oatmeal tube... Jubel was pretty interested in checking out the residue left behind in that tube vs. pushing the tube but he was starting to get it. Finding an object that DOESN'T smell like food will probably be helpful haha.
> 
> Homework is to work on those things. Based on the space I have available to work with right now with kitchen remodel in progress we'll probably just focus on finishes which was also his weakest skill.


That sounds great! I wish my dog school had more classes. I would like to try this too. Finish is hard. How are you teaching it?


----------



## Pomom

Sybbie offered a down during practice tonight without a lure. Time to start naming it? She also did a sit on cue from a down which surprised me. Hope and Pippin never got this.


----------



## gingerkid

Pomom said:


> Sybbie offered a down during practice tonight without a lure. Time to start naming it? She also did a sit on cue from a down which surprised me. Hope and Pippin never got this.


I generally wait until they do it 5 times in a row during a session, so that I know they know what I am looking for, before I start putting something on cue.


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## dagwall

Pomom said:


> That sounds great! I wish my dog school had more classes. I would like to try this too. Finish is hard. How are you teaching it?


I haven't done any practice since our class Thursday night but basically I'm just trying to lure it right now. With him in front of me facing me lure him while walking a few steps backwards, loop my hand out from myself to get him to turn around and stop with him next to me and lure up into a sit.

She demoed a method using a cone as an object for them to go around... Jubel just started interacting with the cone since we did some shaping previously... Before I got him away from the cone completely he was biting it a lot... So yeah... That wasn't working for us. I'm just going to keep with the luring method above for now and see where it goes.


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## Eenypup

Bennie has been SO good lately! Met a few people on the street lately because the weather is nice, and mostly not jumping up. Still very good about not jumping on older people  My dad brought Abilene in and we went to the dog park after hours, she actually did end up playing with not only Abilene but a young GSD too. She kept getting frustrated that they weren't too into playing with her but did great with me being able to call her off when she kept bothering them. Also at one point a bunch of teenagers came in and sat on the ground of the dog park and she was respectful and friendly. Very weird of them but Bennie didn't mind, lmao. LLW has been pretty on point lately, too. 

She's still maybe 50/50 with jumping up on people. She's improved for sure, but she still goes for the face to lick and sometimes gets carried away. She met a young man today (she loves men ironically lol) and just couldn't help herself when he bent down! Silly girl.


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## dagwall

dagwall said:


> I haven't done any practice since our class Thursday night but basically I'm just trying to lure it right now. With him in front of me facing me lure him while walking a few steps backwards, loop my hand out from myself to get him to turn around and stop with him next to me and lure up into a sit.
> 
> She demoed a method using a cone as an object for them to go around... Jubel just started interacting with the cone since we did some shaping previously... Before I got him away from the cone completely he was biting it a lot... So yeah... That wasn't working for us. I'm just going to keep with the luring method above for now and see where it goes.


Kinda shocked. Just did a mini training session to work on finish and Jubel did fantastic. First attempt luring him and he did it perfectly. No matter how many times they do it it's still a pleasant surprise when this happens. Work on something and they struggle understanding what you actually want, make small progress in initial session but you figure it's going to take a fair amount of work. Next time you work on it they nail it. Still a little work left to be done but he was doing so well I've already started to name it. 

Warm and fuzzy feelings for my bestest boy.


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## Pomom

dagwall said:


> Kinda shocked. Just did a mini training session to work on finish and Jubel did fantastic. First attempt luring him and he did it perfectly. No matter how many times they do it it's still a pleasant surprise when this happens. Work on something and they struggle understanding what you actually want, make small progress in initial session but you figure it's going to take a fair amount of work. Next time you work on it they nail it. Still a little work left to be done but he was doing so well I've already started to name it.
> 
> Warm and fuzzy feelings for my bestest boy.


Awesome! I love that feeling.


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## Pomom

gingerkid said:


> I generally wait until they do it 5 times in a row during a session, so that I know they know what I am looking for, before I start putting something on cue.


She has done it maybe ten times now so I started naming it. Her target, sit and leave it are getting there too. But if she finds something on the ground and it's just lying there she doesn't ask permission. Can this be taught? How? She almost ate one of Pippin's pills that dropped today. That freaked me out.


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## gingerkid

Pomom said:


> She has done it maybe ten times now so I started naming it. Her target, sit and leave it are getting there too. But if she finds something on the ground and it's just lying there she doesn't ask permission. Can this be taught? How? She almost ate one of Pippin's pills that dropped today. That freaked me out.


I think it probably can be taught but... I have no idea how as I've never had success with it, haha. I think it takes months/years of consistent its yer choice games, especially for an adult who has had plenty of opportunity to self-reward by grabbing things off the ground. And I am... just not that consistent.


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Elrohwen, nice resources all around! I love the vid of the mal working for the toys. Beautiful work. And yes, the website you posted about hand targeting and heeling is where I got the idea from. Though looking at more vids right now (I really just checked out foundations) I am more impressed with the foundations than the later ones.


Forrest Micke is pretty big in the IPO world from what I can tell. He has some really good videos out there. I got an email that he's starting an online class on heeling through Leerburg, but I already take too many online classes. 

I really really like the IPO style heeling. I don't see us ever getting to that point, because I'm not going to put nearly as much work into it as those folks, but I love reading about their methods and foundation work. Bridget Carlsen has incorporated a lot of IPO methods in heeling as well, though I'm not always on board with her training in general.


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## CrystalGSD

Does anyone know how to train a hand touch with duration?
We've tried the following:

1. He already know that my extended palm = put your nose here. So I would extend my palm and reward all hand touches with his nose, but I could not extend duration at all. Not even by .2 seconds. As soon as I would try to wait a little bit to extend duration, Hero would get extremely frustrated, wooing and barking and mouthing my hand. I go back to square one, and he touches perfectly. He has no sense of duration, and there is no way to increase the time between clicks without him gettin frustrated very quickly.

2. I tried using a food lure in between my thumb and my palm, but that didn't really work either. Apparently our "it's yer choice" training works even when I don't want it to, lol! Also all he did was lick my hand, when he did touch it, instead of keeping his nose on my hand.


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## Hector4

CrystalGSD said:


> Does anyone know how to train a hand touch with duration?
> We've tried the following:
> 
> 1. He already know that my extended palm = put your nose here. So I would extend my palm and reward all hand touches with his nose, but I could not extend duration at all. Not even by .2 seconds. As soon as I would try to wait a little bit to extend duration, Hero would get extremely frustrated, wooing and barking and mouthing my hand. I go back to square one, and he touches perfectly. He has no sense of duration, and there is no way to increase the time between clicks without him gettin frustrated very quickly.
> 
> 2. I tried using a food lure in between my thumb and my palm, but that didn't really work either. Apparently our "it's yer choice" training works even when I don't want it to, lol! Also all he did was lick my hand, when he did touch it, instead of keeping his nose on my hand.


Initially I use the word "stay" to help build duration. Once they understand that you want duration, then you can fade the stay command.


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## Pomom

Sybbie had her third Foundations class today and she did well. But more than that I'm pleased with the work we've been doing outside of class this week. Her hand target is solid now and tonight during practice she did a few downs while I was standing up straight which was new. On our walk yesterday I was click/treating for calmly passing bikes and things which she is almost totally fine with now. We also tried some healing figure eights, and she was LLW well, and heeling most of the time, but right turns she was lagging behind a lot. Still early days. Today, I went to the offleash with a friend and her dog and we played two woman come tag yoyo. That worked very nicely too. Fortunately I have a spare clicker now so we could each have one. I am so thrilled with the progress Sybbie has made in the past four weeks!


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## gingerkid

Hector4 said:


> Initially I use the word "stay" to help build duration. Once they understand that you want duration, then you can fade the stay command.


I have had some success by asking for a touch and rewarding a few times, and then withholding the click/treat (using a clicker) until the dog increased duration by even a fraction of a second - and then up from there. I haven't worked on it much, but I got a several-second hold after a couple of sessions.


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> I have had some success by asking for a touch and rewarding a few times, and then withholding the click/treat (using a clicker) until the dog increased duration by even a fraction of a second - and then up from there. I haven't worked on it much, but I got a several-second hold after a couple of sessions.


Yep, this. Reward a couple times in rapid succession, then stop and wait for them to offer the touch again and reward for increased duration. Also make sure you are rewarding for position - bring the treat in and reward on your hand where you want the dog to touch.


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## TGKvr

So I haven't posted in this thread in a while, mainly because we've kind of been going slow in training. We're still training, just not going to classes at this moment. I wanted to take a little time off and let her grow up a bit before proceeding with the CGC certification.

Anyway. My girl has been doing SO WELL. She's starting to become a bit more calm in the first moments of any new situation - we still have work to do but she has improved drastically. Another thing that has gotten really fantastic is her visual commands. We've always trained pairing a verbal command with a hand cue, and now I can go through almost her entire routine without saying a word. She will sit, stay, down, come to front, place (left side to heel position), set up (right side to heel position), beg, roll over, shake, speak... I know I'm missing stuff. All with nothing but a hand signal. The girl just lives to work. I love it.

Her public behavior is much more calm now too... she gets so excited with people but we've been taking her to Tractor Supply and Home Depot and Cabela's regularly. She enjoys it so much and I have to say I feel so proud when people compliment me on how well trained my dog is! They are usually shocked to learn she's only a year and a half. ("still just a puppy!") I can't wait until she's 5, she's going to be so bomber.


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## CrystalGSD

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! I'm having some more success (he's up to almost a second long nose touch now) and he isn't getting as frustrated.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

I just want to say that Conformation is a lot harder than it looks. Right now I'm just learning stacking with Kairi and that is a serious challenge with a wiggly Aussie! We will work on it and I know it will get better.. but sheesh was she oddly fussy. 

On the plus side, the instructor touched her all over, and even though she couldn't stand completely still.. her nub was wagging the whole time and she did not back away. I've noticed she has been letting people in pet stores touch her without a sniff and cookie first lately as well. I finally have a dog that will tolerate strangers touching her. SO proud of my girl. We've worked so hard on this.


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## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I just want to say that Conformation is a lot harder than it looks. Right now I'm just learning stacking with Kairi and that is a serious challenge with a wiggly Aussie! We will work on it and I know it will get better.. but sheesh was she oddly fussy.
> 
> On the plus side, the instructor touched her all over, and even though she couldn't stand completely still.. her nub was wagging the whole time and she did not back away. I've noticed she has been letting people in pet stores touch her without a sniff and cookie first lately as well. I finally have a dog that will tolerate strangers touching her. SO proud of my girl. We've worked so hard on this.


I'm so excited that you guys are trying it! And yes, it's hard with a new dog, even if it isn't a puppy. Hazel was doing ok last fall but we haven't a handling class in 4 months or practiced at all and I threw her in a show last weekend. Looked like she'd never been stacked before. Thank dog she gaits perfectly on a loose lead with zero training and the judge was a movement guy. Watson was the same so that's one thing I haven't had to train. 

It's such a contrast going into the ring with Watson. Neither of us have to think about what we're doing, we just do the dance and he plays his part. He can be a fussy brat though if he's getting bored and will start moving feet. We had a bit of a silent battle with me replacing his front foot over and over. Haha. But it's significantly easier once you have some practice under your belt. Now I'm at the point where I can think about the finer points instead of just fumbling around the ring trying not to trip.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

elrohwen said:


> I'm so excited that you guys are trying it! And yes, it's hard with a new dog, even if it isn't a puppy. Hazel was doing ok last fall but we haven't a handling class in 4 months or practiced at all and I threw her in a show last weekend. Looked like she'd never been stacked before. Thank dog she gaits perfectly on a loose lead with zero training and the judge was a movement guy. Watson was the same so that's one thing I haven't had to train.
> 
> It's such a contrast going into the ring with Watson. Neither of us have to think about what we're doing, we just do the dance and he plays his part. He can be a fussy brat though if he's getting bored and will start moving feet. We had a bit of a silent battle with me replacing his front foot over and over. Haha. But it's significantly easier once you have some practice under your belt. Now I'm at the point where I can think about the finer points instead of just fumbling around the ring trying not to trip.


I'm excited too! Kairi won't be going into the ring for real since she is altered and wouldn't do well anyway but it is still fun! Next puppy will hopefully be a show puppy.. but if nothing else Kairi is learning a new skill. 

I was meaning to ask if you were still showing Hazel and how she was doing in the ring.


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## elrohwen

She did one show in August and then was lame with pano for the November show, and this past weekend was our first show back. Nothing on Saturday, but she got a 3 point major on Sunday! The judge was clearly into movement and that's why he picked her because he hardly saw her stack, and she was much more skinny and immature looking than the other bitches. She is a beautiful mover though. Watson took select dog in a big field (4-5 grand champion points, still trying to calculate it) so I guess he likes my dogs. He made us go around the ring at least 5-7 times. I needed a bottle of water by the time we were done. Haha. The only male who beat him is a very well known dog who was expected to win, and he beat 3 other special males, two shown by pro handlers (including a Westminster winning handler). For my breed it was a big showing so I'm thrilled. 

You're getting a show line Aussie? That's exciting! Confo is kind of silly but also a bit addictive. It's like gambling.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

That's great! Congrats on the points! It sounds exhausting. 

I'm definitely getting an Aussie. I'm hoping for something moderate but still nice enough for the ring.


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## elrohwen

Aussies are a competitive breed! I'm too scared to show anything too competitive. I'm glad I got my feet wet with an easier breed. I see some males who I think are over done (especially for coat, which I see in my breed too) but overall I think Aussies are still a pretty moderate breed. I still want one some day if I can pry myself away from Welshies.


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## jade5280

It is definitely harder than it looks. It took a lot of socialization and handling classes to get Panzer used to strangers touching him. I suck at stacking and Panzer looks really awkward right now so it makes it a little frustrating when you're trying to stack a dog with a high butt haha. It's kind of inconvenient to drive almost 3 hours one way to a show and not get any points, but you can't get the experience in the ring any other way.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> It is definitely harder than it looks. It took a lot of socialization and handling classes to get Panzer used to strangers touching him. I suck at stacking and Panzer looks really awkward right now so it makes it a little frustrating when you're trying to stack a dog with a high butt haha. It's kind of inconvenient to drive almost 3 hours one way to a show and not get any points, but you can't get the experience in the ring any other way.


Driving so far to shows and getting nothing is frustrating. But even one win, or almost win, will boost your motivation a lot. Hence, gambling. lol


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> Driving so far to shows and getting nothing is frustrating. But even one win, or almost win, will boost your motivation a lot. Hence, gambling. lol


 Yeah I thought it was worth it when we got reserve winners last time even though it doesn't count for anything haha. If he is consistently passed up though then it would not be worth it for me. Luckily there isn't a lot of competition. Our next show is in April and he's just looking so awkward right now that I doubt we will get anything except for the 9-12 mo default ribbon.


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## Kyllobernese

I thought Kris was easy to housebreak but Bonnie (my Doodle) topped her. When she needs to go out, she goes to the door and sits. If I don't notice her, she barks once. When she is ready to come back in, she sits outside the door and gives one bark. If I am a little slow to let her back in, she will sometimes give one more bark but at least she is not clawing at the door like Kris does.

She is one smart pup. She already knows when I am practicing some Agility, to jump up on the table and lie down, goes running over the dog walk and goes through the tunnels. That is all I am doing with her right now as she is just 7 months old. Our teeter at the arena gives a great big bang which she is scared of so I am just getting her used to that, not putting her over it yet. I am also working on 2o2o on the dog walk.


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## elrohwen

jade5280 said:


> Yeah I thought it was worth it when we got reserve winners last time even though it doesn't count for anything haha. If he is consistently passed up though then it would not be worth it for me. Luckily there isn't a lot of competition. Our next show is in April and he's just looking so awkward right now that I doubt we will get anything except for the 9-12 mo default ribbon.


I've been pretty down on Hazel. "Oh, she's put together well, but she's not typey enough to win". And then she won a major and I'm like "Do all of the shows!!!" I still think she's going to have a harder time than Watson did, but then bitches have more competition. There were plenty of shows where he only had to beat one other dog who was timid and had his tail tucked, and then he got Best of Winners because that's usually how it goes down. But Hazel will actually have to beat other bitches to get points and majors. There are also 4 other bitches out right now fighting for points, and if I wait too long they'll all be finished and we won't have a chance for majors for a while. 

I've thought about getting a handler if she's too hard to finish, but I can't think of any way that would work. I don't want to pay someone a ton of money and hand over my dog for weeks at a time. I also don't want to do all the work of grooming her and driving her to a show just to have someone else take her in the ring. I can take her in just fine myself (and she'll show better for me, she's a spazz with new people).


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## jade5280

elrohwen said:


> I've been pretty down on Hazel. "Oh, she's put together well, but she's not typey enough to win". And then she won a major and I'm like "Do all of the shows!!!" I still think she's going to have a harder time than Watson did, but then bitches have more competition. There were plenty of shows where he only had to beat one other dog who was timid and had his tail tucked, and then he got Best of Winners because that's usually how it goes down. But Hazel will actually have to beat other bitches to get points and majors. There are also 4 other bitches out right now fighting for points, and if I wait too long they'll all be finished and we won't have a chance for majors for a while.
> 
> I've thought about getting a handler if she's too hard to finish, but I can't think of any way that would work. I don't want to pay someone a ton of money and hand over my dog for weeks at a time. I also don't want to do all the work of grooming her and driving her to a show just to have someone else take her in the ring. I can take her in just fine myself (and she'll show better for me, she's a spazz with new people).


Yeah that's awesome that she won! There's less females showing than males for us. I would love to have a pro handler, but I also don't want to pay them. I get so nervous before showing. I do think that you would feel more accomplished showing yourself when you get wins.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Yeah unfortunately Aussies are a bit on the competitive side but that's what I want so I'm learning as much as I can before I decide to get a puppy. I'm not sure how far I will go or what I'm aiming for exactly but I do want to get more involved in the breed I love so much! 

I think you should try to finish Hazel yourself. I'm sure it can be done. She is a pretty girl!


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## elrohwen

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I think you should try to finish Hazel yourself. I'm sure it can be done. She is a pretty girl!


Honestly, I'm too cheap to give her to a handler anyway, so I'll do it myself. Hopefully it isn't too much harder than Watson. I'm mostly worried that once we move 2 hours further away from all the shows that I'll have very low motivation to show her.


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## Pomom

Sybbie did her first sit stay with distance today! Yay! We really haven't been practicing that much because of Pippin needing so much (physio, ice packs, heat packs, homemade food and also he wants to play training games and it disrupts his pill schedule) but (and Cpt Jack this is to you) she has gone from not knowing how to learn to creative in the space of 6 weeks. She had no idea what was going on the first time we tried to train. She didn't even offer a behaviour or try to figure it out she just thought I was an alien speaking in binary.

Goals:
More distance with stay
Differentiate between sit and down better
Touch target with obstacles in the way
Go to bed with no duration but some distance
Leave it when treats drop from a height
Recall with distractions
GO THROUGH THE BACK DOOR

I'm hoping to do a CGN class next but it's offered at an awkward time. The inst cut or said to email the owner of the school and see if he could do anything about that as only one person has signed up so far.


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## TGKvr

Turned a corner in our overall training goals. Went to a party this weekend where there were 16 dogs. All of the dogs did really well but I'm especially proud of my girl. In such a high-stimulation type environment, she still listened really well to me and even would interrupt her play when I called her to come. When I felt like she was getting overly stimulated, I'd call her over and we'd take a minute to heel, stay, down, etc. Then I'd release her back to the group. I feel like it's the first time I've really seen the efforts of training pay off in a situation with lots and lots of distractions and lots of other dogs. Indeed, she has a new boyfriend.  
I'm just really pleased with her pack personality and glad I can trust her in those types of crowds. We've had a few smaller situations like this, but nothing on this scale as yet. It also helps when people are like "she's SO well trained!". It just makes me feel so good! And I think we might finally be ready for the CGC!


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## Pomom

That's great, TGKvr!

I started looking for another school for Sybbie cuz the one we go to, while awesome and close, seems to only offer the intermediate classes while I'm working. I have a crappy schedule (weekday nights and weekend days) so it's bound to be tricky. There is a school I took Hope and Pippin to 100 years ago that has what I'm looking for but it would likely take me an hour to get to. The school we go to now is walking distance :/

We really haven't been practicing cuz Pippin is so high maintenance, but we had a class today and it really showed me that we need work. So Sybbie and I practiced tonight (and Pippin got free treats) and it was very encouraging. I think she understands go to bed now though we haven't added distance or duration. Her recall was horrible in class so gotta up the distractions on that one. I really hope we can do a CGN by the end of the year. Hopefully the close school will offer it on a different day in the summer.


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## CrystalGSD

Hero and I working on pivoting. This was our first training session a few days ago. (Sorry for the abrupt end, my phone died and I didn't realize lol)


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## Dogsignalfire

CrystalGSD said:


> Hero and I working on pivoting. This was our first training session a few days ago. (Sorry for the abrupt end, my phone died and I didn't realize lol)


Hero is too cute, and good job! His little feet stomping everywhere around the bowl is too cute. :'D


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## CrystalGSD

Dogsignalfire said:


> Hero is too cute, and good job! His little feet stomping everywhere around the bowl is too cute. :'D


Thank you! And yeah lol he's a silly dog


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## Kyllobernese

On the 26th I am off to my first Caro Rally Trial. As I have never seen a real Rally trial or taken any classes (none available) I don't expect a lot. Printed off the signs and read through the rules so will just have to see how it goes. Kris has had lots of Obedience training and I have practiced what "moves" I think I will need, but it is still going to be a challenge which I am looking forward to. They only hold a couple of trials a year at a distance I can travel so I have been concentrating on Agility with her. Her first trial in Agility is probably going to be the 24th of May.


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## elrohwen

Hazel and I have been working on some heeling this week, trying to fade out the food lure. She's doing pretty well! The first session was better but I didn't record it :-(


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## Canyx

It's looking very nice! Can't wait to see your progress down the line! (to elrowhen)

ETA: Just saw Hero's pivoting video as well. Looks like it's coming along very nicely too!


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> It's looking very nice! Can't wait to see your progress down the line! (to elrowhen)


Thanks! We need to go back and clean up her pivoting off of the disc (she has the idea but she tries to sit and pivot on her butt). But the main thing for me is building up her drive to stay there without food right in front of her. I stayed with a food lure with Watson for way too long, because he is so distractable, but I think she can be weaned off of it pretty quickly. She actually seems to have a better understanding of what she's doing since I've taken away the food and she has to think about it.


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## Pomom

Hero and Hazel are both looking very nice!


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## CrystalGSD

Canyx said:


> It's looking very nice! Can't wait to see your progress down the line! (to elrowhen)
> 
> ETA: Just saw Hero's pivoting video as well. Looks like it's coming along very nicely too!





Pomom said:


> Hero and Hazel are both looking very nice!


Thank you both! 

Hazel's doing really well! What method have you been using to teach heel?


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## elrohwen

CrystalGSD said:


> Hazel's doing really well! What method have you been using to teach heel?


I primarily use Denise Fenzi's method. Your left hand is called "pocket hand" because it makes a little pocket where the dogs nose goes, and you can use that to control their whole body including the hind end. Hazel is short, so my hand is up above her head, but with a dog Hero's size his nose would be right up there in your hand. Lots of trainers use prong collars to get that really precise control of where the dog is, and her pocket hand is basically a positive way to get that same control. Though I do find it hard to fade the pocket hand because the dog has been focused on that and when it disappears they might need a little help. But I used it for Watson and it worked well. You can always go back to pocket hand to help a dog with something difficult like a pivot.

We start out with lots of pivots and single steps in every direction. In the early stages if we need to take multiple steps in heeling, I heavily lure so the dog is building muscle memory but not really having to think about position. Once position is trained with pivots and single steps and pocket hand, then I can put it together and do multiple steps.

This post is pretty helpful on the basic idea of it: http://denisefenzi.com/2016/03/15/pocket-hand/


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## gingerkid

Does anyone have tips for training a "side" command (for agility), and/or will it cause problems in the future if I name it left/right (depending on the side I want the dog on)?


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## elrohwen

I have heel and side cues (left side and right side). I train side the same way I do heel, mostly through luring with some platform work. I use left and right as directional cues for the dog to turn left or right. But you can call it whatever you want.


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## CptJack

I'm not really sure how much the dog moving into a heel like position on either side is useful in agility? but yeah, I have a left nd right for both Kylie and Molly and it's fun and taught the same as heel. Platforms, some luring, reward in the zone. I don't see much issue with using left/right for agility. You can name anything whatever you want. It might get confusing if that's what pops out of your mouth most naturally, though. Side, Other-Side could work for the first thing. Or like Elrohwen said just heel and side.


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## elrohwen

I pretty much only use it for set ups. Either at the beginning of a course or setting up for whatever exercise (training contact equip, one jump exercises, etc). Watson has heel 100% on verbal and it's useful. Side is about 50%. Hazel doesn't have verbal cues for either yet and it's not really a problem. So yeah, fun to teach but not really necessary or anything.


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## CptJack

Ah, yeah, set ups make sense. I mostly use 'middle' for that, but it's a similar kind of thing and I just really, really like positional cues. They amuse me to no end and I have NO IDEA WHY.


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## TGKvr

I use "set up" for a right side heel and "place" for a right side heel.  She still ends in the same position, just comes in a different way. I have no idea if this is "correct" terminology or not but it works for us. We don't do agility though so... not sure if it applies.


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> I use "set up" for a right side heel and "place" for a right side heel. She still ends in the same position, just comes in a different way. I have no idea if this is "correct" terminology or not but it works for us. We don't do agility though so... not sure if it applies.


I'm confused. You said "right side heel" twice. Do you mean finish? Or one cue for the left side and one cue for the right?

I also use my heel cue (and sometimes side) when moving Watson around from one exercise to another. I can call "heel" from across the ring and he will step in next to me. But that took a long time to teach and I wouldn't have taught it to that level if we didn't do obedience and rally too.


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## TGKvr

Haha... sorry, typo. "Place" is used for the left side, sorry. So yeah... both will finish in the same spot (left side heel position), but "set up" means come around on my right side, circle behind me, then finish in heel. "Place" means she comes to my left side, still finishing in the same position. If I call for a "heel", it's always to the left, I don't care from which direction she enters the position, and we also use that from afar... so if we're on a trail and she starts to wander off, I say "heel" and she comes running to me and walks along in a heel position. Different from "this way" which just means stop going that direction and come back towards me.

I really don't know if these are the proper terms for what I'm doing, but I learned them from one of my instructors.


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> Haha... sorry, typo. "Place" is used for the left side, sorry. So yeah... both will finish in the same spot (left side heel position), but "set up" means come around on my right side, circle behind me, then finish in heel. "Place" means she comes to my left side, still finishing in the same position. If I call for a "heel", it's always to the left, I don't care from which direction she enters the position, and we also use that from afar... so if we're on a trail and she starts to wander off, I say "heel" and she comes running to me and walks along in a heel position. Different from "this way" which just means stop going that direction and come back towards me.
> 
> I really don't know if these are the proper terms for what I'm doing, but I learned them from one of my instructors.


People use all sorts of cues for finishes. There's no right or wrong cue. I use "heel" for a left finish and for the act of heeling. It just means get to my left side and if he's starting from a front he will swing around. I use "around" for a right finish.


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## gingerkid

TGKvr said:


> Haha... sorry, typo. "Place" is used for the left side, sorry. So yeah... both will finish in the same spot (left side heel position), but "set up" means come around on my right side, circle behind me, then finish in heel. "Place" means she comes to my left side, still finishing in the same position. If I call for a "heel", it's always to the left, I don't care from which direction she enters the position, and we also use that from afar... so if we're on a trail and she starts to wander off, I say "heel" and she comes running to me and walks along in a heel position. Different from "this way" which just means stop going that direction and come back towards me.
> 
> I really don't know if these are the proper terms for what I'm doing, but I learned them from one of my instructors.


Ooooh... I wonder if having her come around behind me would help with her stopping so far away from me.


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## TGKvr

Ahh... OK. Yeah my last instructor said that some people use different terms to mean the same thing and offered a few options for things. Like I use "around" for a circle when we're heeling, as in - we're changing direction. Years and years ago, in another lifetime, I showed our Rotties in obedience but it has been so long that I've forgotten a lot of the exact terminology we used at that time (other than the basics of course). So now I just roll with whatever seems to work for us.


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## Kyllobernese

I use the same words as elrohwen, from front I say "heel" to go to the left and "round" for heeling behind me from the right into heel. I taught it because you need it in Rally.


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> Ooooh... I wonder if having her come around behind me would help with her stopping so far away from me.


For agility? Or for obedience?

I would use "touch" if you just need her to come in closer and position isn't a big deal.


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## TGKvr

Well dang, I was thinking of doing a Rally class or an agility class just for fun... will I need to re-teach some of these cues? Ugh!


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> Ahh... OK. Yeah my last instructor said that some people use different terms to mean the same thing and offered a few options for things. Like I use "around" for a circle when we're heeling, as in - we're changing direction. Years and years ago, in another lifetime, I showed our Rotties in obedience but it has been so long that I've forgotten a lot of the exact terminology we used at that time (other than the basics of course). So now I just roll with whatever seems to work for us.


I don't use any cues while heeling, other than "heel". All turns and pivots are cued off of body position.



TGKvr said:


> Well dang, I was thinking of doing a Rally class or an agility class just for fun... will I need to re-teach some of these cues? Ugh!


You don't need any of this for agility. Fronts/finishes/heeling etc aren't a part of agility at all. It can be a little useful to have the positions on cue, but not necessary and most people don't. For Rally, yes, you need heeling, fronts, finishes, etc.


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> For agility? Or for obedience?
> 
> I would use "touch" if you just need her to come in closer and position isn't a big deal.


Agility. Would it screw things up for obedience?


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> Agility. Would it screw things up for obedience?


I don't see how? Touch is touch.

If you want to do both, I would caution against using any obedience cues like "heel" or an "around" right finish during agility. Your criteria will be different and it will dilute your obedience behaviors. I do use "heel" for Watson in agility because I know that his understanding of that position is solid because we've worked on it for 3 years. I would not use it for a dog like Hazel who is still learning to heel. I just set her up on either side using a treat or my hand to lure, or taking her collar and positioning her.


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## TGKvr

Hmm... we haven't been to a class in a while and my main goal is the CGC title but I thought about throwing a "fun" class in first just for the heck of it. One, to get her back in training mode, and two, just to get her out and doing something fun and different. She loves to learn, and we've missed the last two sessions of classes at our school. I feel like we've sort of stalled out with our training. I mean we still train every day but I haven't really introduced anything new in a long time. Aaaaand just looking at the schedule it seems like the intro agility class is on a Friday night, Rally is on a Monday, and CGC is on a Thursday. That might rule out agility for me, as we are coming into nice weather and I don't really want every Friday night booked. Ah, decisions!


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> Hmm... we haven't been to a class in a while and my main goal is the CGC title but I thought about throwing a "fun" class in first just for the heck of it. One, to get her back in training mode, and two, just to get her out and doing something fun and different. She loves to learn, and we've missed the last two sessions of classes at our school. I feel like we've sort of stalled out with our training. I mean we still train every day but I haven't really introduced anything new in a long time. Aaaaand just looking at the schedule it seems like the intro agility class is on a Friday night, Rally is on a Monday, and CGC is on a Thursday. That might rule out agility for me, as we are coming into nice weather and I don't really want every Friday night booked. Ah, decisions!


We're moving in a about a month and I already found an agility place, but the class Hazel fits into is Fridays at 7:30 :-( I'm going to do it, but I'm probably going to whine about it. lol I don't even typically do stuff on Fridays after work, but I like going home and just chilling without having to leave the house again for a class.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I don't see how? Touch is touch.
> 
> If you want to do both, I would caution against using any obedience cues like "heel" or an "around" right finish during agility. Your criteria will be different and it will dilute your obedience behaviors. I do use "heel" for Watson in agility because I know that his understanding of that position is solid because we've worked on it for 3 years. I would not use it for a dog like Hazel who is still learning to heel. I just set her up on either side using a treat or my hand to lure, or taking her collar and positioning her.


You could also just practice recalls with collar grabs. Do the collar grab, back chain it into the recall. Setting up is pretty much just a put the dog where you want it and ask for a sit then remove the leash, anyway. You can use commands but it doesn't really matter how they get there, ultimately, as long as there where you want them for take off.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> You could also just practice recalls with collar grabs. Do the collar grab, back chain it into the recall. Setting up is pretty much just a put the dog where you want it and ask for a sit then remove the leash, anyway. You can use commands but it doesn't really matter how they get there, ultimately, as long as there where you want them for take off.


Yeah, recall+collar grab is an important skill.


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## OwnedbyACDs

I used "around" in agility sometimes, sometimes I will use "Here" like if he is going to go off course or something. Around for us is a general thing that can mean different things depending on what we are doing, if I am heeling, around means "go around me to the other side and heel there" or if I am stopped and ask for an around, it means "go around and auto sit, and wait for further instruction". I also use around for going around an object and coming back to my side. It really depends on what we are doing LOL.


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> I don't see how? Touch is touch.
> 
> If you want to do both, I would caution against using any obedience cues like "heel" or an "around" right finish during agility. Your criteria will be different and it will dilute your obedience behaviors. I do use "heel" for Watson in agility because I know that his understanding of that position is solid because we've worked on it for 3 years. I would not use it for a dog like Hazel who is still learning to heel. I just set her up on either side using a treat or my hand to lure, or taking her collar and positioning her.


I thought you meant "Side" not "Touch". Hah.

Also, apparently after working on "Side" for two days, she magically can heel on that side. Like, I didn't lure her, didn't do anything, she just decided her head was supposed to be near my knee while I was walking. I of course reinforced the heck out of it (including a release cue).... This dog. <3



CptJack said:


> You could also just practice recalls with collar grabs. Do the collar grab, back chain it into the recall. Setting up is pretty much just a put the dog where you want it and ask for a sit then remove the leash, anyway. You can use commands but it doesn't really matter how they get there, ultimately, as long as there where you want them for take off.


We already do recall + collar grabs. Ida's default recall is to shove her neck into my hand.


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> I thought you meant "Side" not "Touch". Hah.
> 
> Also, apparently after working on "Side" for two days, she magically can heel on that side. Like, I didn't lure her, didn't do anything, she just decided her head was supposed to be near my knee while I was walking. I of course reinforced the heck out of it (including a release cue).... This dog. <3


Smarty pants!


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## elrohwen

Canyx and CrystalGSD and anyone else interested in heeling - I'm signed up for the FDSA FCI Heeling class starting April 1st. FCI heeling is pretty similar to IPO style heeling (head up, prancy, etc) so I'm very excited! Obviously I can't share all of the details from the class but I'll share any useful tips I pick up. I imagine some of it will be similar to what we've done (pivots, etc) and some will be completely new. Seems like drive building for heeling is also a big part of it which we really need. Hazel loves anything where she can run full out, but so far she's not crazy about heeling.


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## Canyx

Very nice! Thanks for letting us know, I am excited for you and Hazel! Understandably you can't share everything but if you have any groundbreaking moments you know we'd love to hear about them!

In my world.... We were filming for Soro's TDCH and it was horrible! Well, I am over exaggerating. But it was an abnormally hot and full-sun day, and Soro was just being very sluggish. Had to cue the same behavior 2-3 times in some instances. I am being SUPER picky because I want to film everything in one shot instead of putting clips together. And although any one of the videos we took would technically have qualified, I want to show him at his absolute best.

IE, Soro has zero issues. His owner... is another story


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## jade5280

I would like to know what you learn in heeling as well! After a couple months we are *almost* at the point where we start actually taking a step. We have the heel position down and now comes the hard part!

I said I was going to sign up for Nosework with Ryker instead of the next level of agility with Panzer, but our last class is next week and I'm feeling kind of sad that we won't be going to agility because it's a lot of fun. Thinking about pushing nosework off for a little while and taking the next level agility with Panzer instead.


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## CrystalGSD

Elrohwen, thank you! I'd really appreciate any tips you learn  and good luck to you and Hazel, I'd love to hear how it goes.

Right now Hero and I haven't had much time for training, unfortunately, since school has gotten in the way. We're about at the same place with pivoting. Although, Hero now finally stays totally still while dremeling his nails, so that's great. He still doesn't like it but at least he stays still  Also I think I want to teach Crystal how to pivot, too. It'll probably be hard though, because, unlike Hero, Crystal doesn't know her back legs exist.


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## elrohwen

CrystalGSD said:


> Also I think I want to teach Crystal how to pivot, too. It'll probably be hard though, because, unlike Hero, Crystal doesn't know her back legs exist.


Then it will be good for her! Neither of mine had much back end awareness at all before we did pivot work. Hazel is still learning, but Watson has excellent rear end awareness now.


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## elrohwen

Here's the promotional video for the heeling class. I'd love to get my heeling even halfway to this!


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## Pomom

I'm so frustrated cuz I work every weekday night and every weekend afternoon. When are classes offered? Of course! I managed to find a foundations class that was Monday at noon but all intermediate, rally, CGN, etc classes are during my work hours. My next goal with Sybbie is a CGN so we're just gonna have to do it solo somehow. This is not even really possible so what do I do? Ask strangers to help me in the park? My dog friends are not really into training and basically just accept their dogs the way they came out of the box. Not that I'm demanding of Sybbie, but training is rewarding! In May I should have Tuesday night's free and I know our school occasionally offers the CGN class on a Tuesday so hopefully that will work. They alternate offering it on Saturdays and Tuesday's so if they stick to pattern I hope to get it done by July. There is also a heel work class and a recall class I want to take before starting rally but stupid work gets in the way!


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## CrystalGSD

Does anyone have any tips on reducing shyness towards people. Hero has suddenly declined in his outgoing-ness and is acting very fearful of strangers. At the beach this weekend, a lady walked near him and he ran away with his hackles up and tail down. I've noticed an increase in this type of behavior these past several weeks... I take him to the pet store but ever since he's gotten older no one wants to interact with a 'scary shepherd looking' dog. He's 100% fine with people at the dog park so I think it is new people in new situations that scares him? 

Does anyone know where I can take him or what to do? People are always scared of him lol. I got one person he was scared of to give him a treat at the beach but I'm pretty sure he was still scared. I don't want him to end up an antisocial wreck  he got plenty of socialization when he was younger, I'm not sure what went wrong. I hope it isn't genetic...


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## Hector4

CrystalGSD said:


> Does anyone have any tips on reducing shyness towards people. Hero has suddenly declined in his outgoing-ness and is acting very fearful of strangers. At the beach this weekend, a lady walked near him and he ran away with his hackles up and tail down. I've noticed an increase in this type of behavior these past several weeks... I take him to the pet store but ever since he's gotten older no one wants to interact with a 'scary shepherd looking' dog. He's 100% fine with people at the dog park so I think it is new people in new situations that scares him?
> 
> Does anyone know where I can take him or what to do? People are always scared of him lol. I got one person he was scared of to give him a treat at the beach but I'm pretty sure he was still scared. I don't want him to end up an antisocial wreck  he got plenty of socialization when he was younger, I'm not sure what went wrong. I hope it isn't genetic...


I would start off with teaching leash pressure. Taut leash = come to me = loose leash. If you search on youtube, search teaching pressure on, pressure off or conversational leash pressure or teaching leash pressure. I would do that and then work that outdoors with low distractions and then once you and your dog are fluent with leash communication, take him to stores where there are places it's pretty spacey so you can move away from people quickly or use objects as a barrier from triggers. First step is exposure and working the leash pressure which is basically working on his focus on you. When you see people approaching or when the dog starts to be uncomfortable, apply pressure so the dog comes to you and you create distance from the trigger. Reward, take a break and then introduce the dog to people again as in walk around where he can see people at a safe distance. Just keep on doing this exercise. Do not let anyone approach him and when you see that happening, turn and walk away from it. Don't let anyone pet him or give him a treat. That is the wrong way to help a scared dog. Use lots of space and apply frequent leash work. Right now it's all about engagement and exposure to people.


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## gingerkid

Pomom said:


> I'm so frustrated cuz I work every weekday night and every weekend afternoon. When are classes offered? Of course! I managed to find a foundations class that was Monday at noon but all intermediate, rally, CGN, etc classes are during my work hours. My next goal with Sybbie is a CGN so we're just gonna have to do it solo somehow. This is not even really possible so what do I do? Ask strangers to help me in the park? My dog friends are not really into training and basically just accept their dogs the way they came out of the box. Not that I'm demanding of Sybbie, but training is rewarding! In May I should have Tuesday night's free and I know our school occasionally offers the CGN class on a Tuesday so hopefully that will work. They alternate offering it on Saturdays and Tuesday's so if they stick to pattern I hope to get it done by July. There is also a heel work class and a recall class I want to take before starting rally but stupid work gets in the way!


I think most of the CGN stuff, aside from handling by strangers, and maybe the accepting other dogs part/stopping to chat near another dog, you can train by yourself.


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## Pomom

gingerkid said:


> I think most of the CGN stuff, aside from handling by strangers, and maybe the accepting other dogs part/stopping to chat near another dog, you can train by yourself.


You're right. I downloaded the handbook and got to work. We did our first training session somewhere other than home or class in the park today. I was totally bungling it though. I expected too much too soon instead of going back to kindergarten once there were more distractions. We mostly practiced stay and I fracked it up. However Sybbie's focus was good unless I dropped a treat and then she wouldn't stop searching the grass for it. What made it hardest for her was the long line. We had never used it before and I think something about it snaking out made her break. At home we practice off leash and at class I usually drop the leash. This problem never even occurred to me. It's amazing how endlessly surprising dogs are. Isn't that part of the reason they are fascinating? I tried coiling the leash in my hand as well as laying on the ground but it was the same. Will just take practice I guess. I don't like flexis plus there would be a bit of tug which wouldn't help either. Ah well. It would be boring if there was nothing to work on! With my old guys, before I got Sybbie, we were pretty content with the same old same old for years. This is much better! (Though, Hope and Pippin, if you're in a Heaven where you can read, that doesn't mean I don't miss you!) (Yup I'm nuts.)


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## Eenypup

EDITED: Realized this wasn't the most appropriate thread for this!


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## sydneynicole

I look like a potato because I'm bundled up haha, and of course Oliver is just barely in the frame, but I wanted to see how he would do if we did some training at his favorite hiking trail. He did so well, listened almost exactly as well as he does at home and in class. Some minor miscommunications/bloopers lol, bot for a 9 month old puppy and a really noobish 'trainer', not that bad.

Not sure how to embed the video lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlZ8kwVYpec&feature=youtu.be


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## CptJack

Look guys










We finally have sustained, appropriate, loose leash walking under stimulating circumstances.


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## Canyx

Love that focus, CptJack! GO MOLLY!

For elrowhen mostly, but really anyone... Don't laugh too hard OKAY?
This is my working on heeling using hand targeting, just for fun


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## GrinningDog

CptJack, I need you to come train Gypsy how to LLW. I can teach everything but. I TOTALLY fail at LLW.


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## CptJack

GoGoGypsy said:


> CptJack, I need you to come train Gypsy how to LLW. I can teach everything but. I TOTALLY fail at LLW.


It's honestly the biggest pain in the ass thing to teach, ever. If I hadn't been positive it would help the reactivity crap I'm not sure I would have bothered. She's not THAT big, you know?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

CptJack said:


> It's honestly the biggest pain in the ass thing to teach, ever. If I hadn't been positive it would help the reactivity crap I'm not sure I would have bothered. She's not THAT big, you know?


All I want to know.. is what method did you use? I've had no success with the popular ones. :/


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## CptJack

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> All I want to know.. is what method did you use? I've had no success with the popular ones. :/


I've never had any success with the popular methods either. It seems like leash training is the ONE place where most methods still focus on teaching the dog what *not* to do, instead of what to do. 

My method is basically reinforcement zone stuff. Instead of 'don't pull' it's WALK HERE, this is your space, and get food. I even use a cue for it early on, just because that means I can 'release' the dog at intervals, let her sniff and screw around, and then get her back to loose leash walking in the zone around me she's 'supposed' to be in/is rewarded for being in. Then it's just building duration, which actually happens pretty rapidly. It keeps pressure off the leash (the 'zone' is smaller than the length of the leash), but it's not like... the goal from the dog's POV.


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## elrohwen

Nice work with Soro! Nice side steps!

I'm still building up Hazel's sustained hand touch so we can use that for heeling. I think it might be the answer for how I can get rid of food in my hand at least. I will still have to fade the hand touch but I like that it gets food out of the way earlier.


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## elrohwen

I shared this on FB but figured I'd post here too. I'm trying to work on rewarding with toys more often, especially for more "boring" behaviors like a sustained hand touch. I was getting a lot of barking for a while, but I think we're fixing it! This is our third session in the last three days. The first two involved a lot more barking. haha


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## Canyx

Very nice! I love how fast at you are in responding to her. Really clear signals all around. Hazel clearly loves the game too!


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Very nice! I love how fast at you are in responding to her. Really clear signals all around. Hazel clearly loves the game too!


Thanks! She's a good puppy. 

I realized that this video also applies to our discussion of NRMs! Walking away when she barks is a pretty strong NRM, but I'm wiling to use it with her because she's a confident dog, and I know that barking has been reinforced in the past (mostly with disc). She's frustrated, but she also thinks barking will make me throw the toy and I had to break that association so I decided to try an NRM. If Watson barks at me I never walk away, because it means he's frustrated and not sure what I want and I need to be a better trainer.


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## CrystalGSD

I'm trying to train a chin target with Hero using shaping, and I think I just taught him to violently lick my hand while simultaneously jabbing my hand with his chin lol! Almost there though!


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## elrohwen

Ok, so both of my dogs have an obnoxious habit. I think it's partially their personalities (and age) but also something I do to unwittingly reinforce it. Sometimes on leash, they just bop around in every direction, straining at the end of the leash (no matter the length). I get it, they want to check stuff out, but unless I am managing them and rewarding and being on top of them, they won't just sit next to me and chill the heck out in a new place. Sure, after we've been there a while and it's not so interesting they chill out. But it seems like everybody else's dog can go into a new interesting place (like, say, a new training facility) and just stand next to them without being like "oo, what's over there! oo, something better on this side! oh, I want to check that out!" I feel like the problem is that I don't give them enough time to calm down before we enter, but sometimes you just need to go inside and not spend half an hour standing at the door until the dog finally gets bored (and they can still find interesting things once we get inside even if they were pretty calm outside). I don't care if they sniff around and check things out within the limits of the leash, but straining on the end of the leash in every direction while I stand there like a tree is getting old. This is pretty much the primary reason Watson is on a prong a lot of the time because it prevents the behavior. And they don't do this everywhere - Watson isn't like this at the hardware store, because hardware stores are pretty boring. Hazel is like this almost anywhere, because she's still young. But waiting until they are 4 to grow out of this is annoying.

Thoughts? I need to do something different when they act like this, but what? Is the answer just to manage and be on top of them all the time and expect them to act like this otherwise? Because I can do that, I usually do that actually, but I don't see other people doing it.


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## Canyx

CrystalGSD said:


> I'm trying to train a chin target with Hero using shaping, and I think I just taught him to violently lick my hand while simultaneously jabbing my hand with his chin lol! Almost there though!


What method are you using? I am thinking of adding chin rest to a class and would love to hear ideas! Sor has a solid chin rest but I cannot remember how I taught it! 



elrohwen said:


> Ok, so both of my dogs have an obnoxious habit. I think it's partially their personalities (and age) but also something I do to unwittingly reinforce it. Sometimes on leash, they just bop around in every direction, straining at the end of the leash (no matter the length). I get it, they want to check stuff out, but unless I am managing them and rewarding and being on top of them, they won't just sit next to me and chill the heck out in a new place. Sure, after we've been there a while and it's not so interesting they chill out. But it seems like everybody else's dog can go into a new interesting place (like, say, a new training facility) and just stand next to them without being like "oo, what's over there! oo, something better on this side! oh, I want to check that out!" I feel like the problem is that I don't give them enough time to calm down before we enter, but sometimes you just need to go inside and not spend half an hour standing at the door until the dog finally gets bored (and they can still find interesting things once we get inside even if they were pretty calm outside). I don't care if they sniff around and check things out within the limits of the leash, but straining on the end of the leash in every direction while I stand there like a tree is getting old. This is pretty much the primary reason Watson is on a prong a lot of the time because it prevents the behavior. And they don't do this everywhere - Watson isn't like this at the hardware store, because hardware stores are pretty boring. Hazel is like this almost anywhere, because she's still young. But waiting until they are 4 to grow out of this is annoying.
> 
> Thoughts? I need to do something different when they act like this, but what? Is the answer just to manage and be on top of them all the time and expect them to act like this otherwise? Because I can do that, I usually do that actually, but I don't see other people doing it.


Honestly, I dealt with this by teaching LLW, using the environment as a reward, and then just dealing with it. Soro sounds like your guys to some extent. When he is out and about, his true love is to have his nose on the ground. I know you've already done a lot of engagement games with them (and I FINALLY did truly understand the beauty of having your dog ask for engagement, and it works magic in classes I teach actually), and I think a lot of it is practicing that in many different places and then ultimately rewarding with the freedom to explore. Understandably it is harder on a walk. Have you tried the game where you move away from the goal if your dog pulls? I think it's penalty yards. But as long as they are LLW they can move forward, and if they pull you immediately turn and go back a few feet if not to your imaginary starting line. I am all for rewarding in position. But you already have that piece. It's hard because with dogs like yours, even if you're a tree they are still self-rewarding for a moment because they get to orbit around you and gather smells/sights in that radius. I actually don't like the tree method in LLW because I've seen dogs catch onto that game and not mind stopping and waiting every few feet. In fact I have never seen the tree method work because the dog learns to check in *just briefly* enough to get his owner moving before hitting the end of the leash again. But for dogs that just want to GO, I've seen penalty yards work great. I had a dog who refused treats because she was so amped up about EVERYTHING!!! So no rewarding in position was possible. Penalty yards actually worked! And at first it was quite literally spinning circles since she'd lunge from one side to the other. But she really quickly caught on to the idea that true forward movement only comes with a slack leash. In 5 minutes she could walk 5-10 feet loose in a linear direction, which doesn't seem like a lot but she would actually key into the handler turning before hitting the end of the leash. The best part is she calmed down enough to take treats, so the owner could then add that piece too.

Quite different than your scenario. But I guess what I'm trying to say is, you have the trump card (treats, cues, etc) and although you understandably don't want to micromanage all the time, do use those to your advantage. And also, use moving away from the destination as negative punishment, since the environment is the next most rewarding this besides yourself.


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Have you tried the game where you move away from the goal if your dog pulls? I think it's penalty yards. But as long as they are LLW they can move forward, and if they pull you immediately turn and go back a few feet if not to your imaginary starting line. I am all for rewarding in position. But you already have that piece.


I do this when I can! And I'll use set ups like food on the ground, or a certain pole I know they will really want to sniff. But half the time it's just random bopping with no goal. I move the other direction, so they bop around that way. lol It's much easier when it's a specific distraction vs general "omg this is awesome!" distraction. I think we need to put some more work into this method in a variety of places, instead of the more halfassed way I tend to do it. It really is the only thing that's helped at all especially in situations with a clear target to move towards.



> It's hard because with dogs like yours, even if you're a tree they are still self-rewarding for a moment because they get to orbit around you and gather smells/sights in that radius. I actually don't like the tree method in LLW because I've seen dogs catch onto that game and not mind stopping and waiting every few feet. In fact I have never seen the tree method work because the dog learns to check in *just briefly* enough to get his owner moving before hitting the end of the leash again.


Yes! This method has never worked for me because of exactly what you describe. I get a check in because they know that's what I want, but it doesn't do anything long term for LLW. And they can certainly self-reinforce while I'm being a tree.


Glad to know I'm not alone though. I realize that I'm probably not, but it seems like I look around at classes or whatever and nobody else is doing anything and their dogs are just being good.


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## lizzy25

elrohwen said:


> I do this when I can! And I'll use set ups like food on the ground, or a certain pole I know they will really want to sniff. But half the time it's just random bopping with no goal. I move the other direction, so they bop around that way. lol It's much easier when it's a specific distraction vs general "omg this is awesome!" distraction. I think we need to put some more work into this method in a variety of places, instead of the more halfassed way I tend to do it. It really is the only thing that's helped at all especially in situations with a clear target to move towards.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes! This method has never worked for me because of exactly what you describe. I get a check in because they know that's what I want, but it doesn't do anything long term for LLW. And they can certainly self-reinforce while I'm being a tree.
> 
> 
> Glad to know I'm not alone though. I realize that I'm probably not, but it seems like I look around at classes or whatever and nobody else is doing anything and their dogs are just being good.


OMG that is soooo me at classes, I'm always like why can't my dog just sit there and relax (although you probably know my frustration by now by my many posts . I've taken much of the advice on this forum but also found that I really just have to pick my dog's brain and keep trying different things until suddenly a method clicks and works for him! So for the class part where we just have to sit for a few minutes at a time and listen to the trainer talk, I've been taking steak with me. When he is laying on his mat, I break itty bitty pieces off a piece of steak, and reward the entire time he is laying there. It sounds like I may be feeding him a ton but I can break the steak off into such thin strands that I may have given him literally 50 pieces during the 2-3 minutes but it actually equates to like a one inch piece. So yea he is getting reinforced like crazy and I don't really give him the chance to get up because laying there and getting treated a million times is so much better! I've been trialing this out for the past 4 classes and he has pretty much stayed put for the most part so if it works and prevents him from acting like an idiot, I'm doing it! lol I'' I'll start randomly treating and treat less frequently but I'll take it slow and at his pace...I think that's what I found to be the most important thing with not getting frustrated and creating a stronger bond with him, is that I need to remind myself often that every dog is different and I need to work within his threshold and that EVENTUALLY he will get there and that all the time/training I put in will be very rewarding to me as well 

As for LLW my guy is great in our neighborhood walks but in different places, yea every freaking thing on the ground is the most interesting thing ever to him in the beginning of our walk (later on he gets better). So I've tried the tree method, look at me, then rewarding for focus, among other things but sometimes he is just too into his zone and determined to do his own thing. So I just keep going. You want to sniff, well you can but in a little. So when he starts his sniffing, pulling frenzy or what have you I just keep it moving. It kinda throws him off guard a little and then once he is walking nicely again I have him sit and then give him the opportunity to sniff a little, etc. So I'm not dragging him on the ground by any means but just kinda walking at a face pace to keep it moving and get his attention back. It works for me so just thought I'd share...and now I kinda catch him second guessing himself and checking in on what he should do...


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## CptJack

Honestly, for me, it's just been variable reinforcement, same as anything else. When Kylie was first in classes or in a new class, at first it's pretty much a lot of management and giving commands then fading it out - both commands and treats. 

However, while Molly is dog reactive, either of them is exactly a dog who finds the environment rewarding so what I've got is what they want - be it attention or food or a toy - so it's easier. Getting Kylie to CHILL at agility for a long day has been harder but that has amounted to a whole lot of 'there's your crate' and ignoring the nonsense she'd throw at it, much like crate training at home. 

Which I realize is not particularly helpful in your scenario because our dogs are, in these regards, really different.


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## Canyx

I really think the *movement* itself can be rewarding for most dogs. So LLW means actually going places and pulling means spinning circles. And if you are walking a very twisty and non linear path, using your body movement to have the dog in the proper place, then the only thing that is constant that they can (theoretically) focus on is you. Pulling means 'nope! we're moving this way now? getting frustrated about not being able to sniff or stare at anything for more than a hot second? better keep that leash loose!' This is mostly theory for now. But seeing as I'm at the shelter currently, let me go test that out with a green shelter dog and get back to y'all.


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> I really think the *movement* itself can be rewarding for most dogs. So LLW means actually going places and pulling means spinning circles.


Hazel will run circles around me on a 10ft lead like I'm lunging a horse. LOL She seems perfectly happy with that. Though of course if she knew that doing something different meant off leash where she could really run, she'd probably change her mind.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> However, while Molly is dog reactive, either of them is exactly a dog who finds the environment rewarding so what I've got is what they want - be it attention or food or a toy - so it's easier. Getting Kylie to CHILL at agility for a long day has been harder but that has amounted to a whole lot of 'there's your crate' and ignoring the nonsense she'd throw at it, much like crate training at home.
> 
> Which I realize is not particularly helpful in your scenario because our dogs are, in these regards, really different.


Yeah, it's tough. Hazel honestly isn't that environmental. She'll bop around for 5-10min out of excitement, but she gets bored quickly and looks to me to do stuff. And she's not all that sniffy. It's still annoying that she's kinda full speed "OMG over there! No over here!" But she's not that heavy either so I just stand there.

But Watson finds the environment so incredibly rewarding. Especially other dog smells. It's tough. Though he's better than she is now just because of age. Even if he's sniffing, he's probably not straining at the leash like an idiot most of the time, just sometimes. But when he does act like that, he's big and strong and it's hard to control him without a prong.


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## Canyx

I went up to my coworker and said "who's crazy?" I worked with a stray lab, young unneutered male built like a field lab and very all over the place, though still loved food. He loved food enough to take it but would definitely get distracted if I tried to get him to DO anything, if that makes any sense. Which is fine since I wanted to move around with him anyway.
For this specific dog, penalty yards and rewarding in position worked wonders. He even started to really follow my turns instead of hitting the end of the leash first. Though 'penalty yards' weren't done strictly in a linear way. I mean, I took the dog on a walk. We just used 'forward to new places' as the goal instead of something specific like a plate of food. Honestly, for a dog that just exploded out of a loud kennel environment and having met me for the first time, he did really really well. The first few minutes we were spinning circles but after that we actually walked around the property (with a lot of turns). Though I didn't truly follow my experiment, which was no rewards except forward movement. D'oh


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> I went up to my coworker and said "who's crazy?" I worked with a stray lab, young unneutered male built like a field lab and very all over the place, though still loved food. He loved food enough to take it but would definitely get distracted if I tried to get him to DO anything, if that makes any sense. Which is fine since I wanted to move around with him anyway.
> For this specific dog, penalty yards and rewarding in position worked wonders. He even started to really follow my turns instead of hitting the end of the leash first. Though 'penalty yards' weren't done strictly in a linear way. I mean, I took the dog on a walk. We just used 'forward to new places' as the goal instead of something specific like a plate of food. Honestly, for a dog that just exploded out of a loud kennel environment and having met me for the first time, he did really really well. The first few minutes we were spinning circles but after that we actually walked around the property (with a lot of turns). Though I didn't truly follow my experiment, which was no rewards except forward movement. D'oh


Want to come and train mine? I'll pay you!

ETA: Sometimes I get too frustrated. One time with Watson it took 20min to walk the 100 steps back to our house (after he had been pretty good for most of the walk). I just couldn't take it anymore. His capacity to freak out for extended periods of time is insane. Once he was going nuts about a ground hog under our porch (I guess he smelled it in the yard? we didn't see it) and I decided to just wait him out and see when he would relax and connect with me. We sat there for 45min until I couldn't take it anymore and took him inside. Not that he never looked at me for 45min, but he looked at me with a crazy expression and he was whining like "Mooomm, let's go over to the porch!!" and when I didn't let him, he started lunging again. Haha


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## Canyx

elrohwen said:


> Want to come and train mine? I'll pay you!
> 
> ETA: Sometimes I get too frustrated. One time with Watson it took 20min to walk the 100 steps back to our house (after he had been pretty good for most of the walk). I just couldn't take it anymore. His capacity to freak out for extended periods of time is insane. Once he was going nuts about a ground hog under our porch (I guess he smelled it in the yard? we didn't see it) and I decided to just wait him out and see when he would relax and connect with me. We sat there for 45min until I couldn't take it anymore and took him inside. Not that he never looked at me for 45min, but he looked at me with a crazy expression and he was whining like "Mooomm, let's go over to the porch!!" and when I didn't let him, he started lunging again. Haha


Honestly, I would LOVE to work with Watson! Not because I think I can do any better than you or the other trainers you've worked with, but simply because I think it would be a very enlightening experience for me. 
For that specific situation, I would have just taken anything I got and then given him the release cue. To use a sheltering example (and I know your circumstances are totally different)... Ideally we want our dogs to behave at doorways and sit nicely before we open any doors. Sometimes the dog just can't do it. Sometimes the thing they want most is just out of our control and there is no reward I can pull out of my person or my pocket that can get me that sustained focus. So I ask for the bare minimum... Look at me for a split second!... and I give the dog the Okay to get what he wants. Premack, I suppose. Yes, it's going backwards in LLW if a volunteer lets a dog pull to the play yard. But that dog seriously can't work in an effective way before the ya-yas comes out. When our volunteers (who are outstanding) work with dogs when the dogs are capable and willing to learn, the dogs show more impulse control sooner the next time they go out. Honestly though, in that situation where I asked for eye contact before giving the okay, I am not even sure if the dog is learning. I am trying to get anything I can get but I think the dog is already way over threshold. Dogs over threshold can't learn. So maybe I do it just to make ME feel better for enforcing the 'ask for something' rule.

And I hear you completely. Outside of sheltering I would also be that person who stubbornly sat for an hour waiting for the right response. I think a huge part off LLW training is NEVER allowing that pulling. So you are doing everything right. But I guess what I'm saying is... Those moments do not make or break your training.

ETA: second thought. In those moments for Watson, it may seem counterintuitive to move away from the destination you've been trying to reach for 45 minutes. But if he is over threshold, staying still there may not bring him back down. I think moving away might give you a second chance at getting his brain back.


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## Laurelin

Why is teaching a stand so hard??? 

Fffffffffff


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## elrohwen

Canyx, excellent post. I have done a lot of quick eye contact then releasing, so that's why he kept looking at me and whining. Lol. Like, I know if I look at you then you let me go, so let me go dammit. But we've struggled to extend that. I guess because like you said he is over threshold, so what do I expect? I guess I hope he can come back under? But you're right that we need to move further away and he can kind of chill. Like the last time he was insane in the front yard I let him off leash in our other field with less smells and he was chill. I just had to take him out of the situation and he forgot all about it. That had come largely with age and time I think. As a younger dog his recovery time was so much longer. So progress! I think he is so difficult because his triggers are so general and non-specific (and non-visual). Your dog reacts to something specific you can work on it and move away, and have a plan. But he just goes overstimulated in a second over somethings I can't control directly (like just being somewhere new that is exciting to him for whatever reason) or something I can't see (smells). Other than that he's not any harder than any other dog who gets overstimulated easily, but it's hard to really train through except with lots of time and patience and trial and error. Lucky for him he's the best boy at home 

Laurelin, are you struggling getting the position of just holding it? I'm good at getting them to hold it, but I also suck at cuing it without a hand touch.


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## Kyllobernese

For some strange reason, the stand was the easiest thing I ever taught to Kris. She was very good on her sit and down stays before I taught her which may have helped. Right from the start, she would stand and stay when I walked away from her and would let any number of people go over her and never move. It always amazed me as I never spent that much time teaching her the Stand. It probably helped that she is not a dog that is overly friendly so was not wiggling all over wanting to be patted.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Laurelin, are you struggling getting the position of just holding it? I'm good at getting them to hold it, but I also suck at cuing it without a hand touch.


It's just not clicking. I've got the luring mechanics of it but I don't think he really is thinking about what he is doing.

EDIT: Trying to go from sit to stand.


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## CrystalGSD

For the chin rest, Canyx, I fully shaped it. I stuck my hand out and waited for him to do anything that even nearly resembled a chin target, and just went from there


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## elrohwen

This weekend I took the dogs to a Denise Fenzi seminar. The first day was Drives and Motivations and I took Hazel. The working portion was mostly play skills (and a little heeling) and she did awesome! I'm really proud of the play skills I taught her. Not that I did that much work, but for someone who's never had a toy motivated dog it was reassuring to hear that I had done everything right with her. 

Watson went to the second day called Handler's Choice. I was really nervous that we would spend his entire session just acclimating to the new training building and not actually do any obedience. He was wild when we got there, but I spent time walking him around and sitting in the corner where he could observe everything. When it was our turn he did sniff around for 5min, but it wasn't frantic, just interested relaxed sniffing. And after 5 minutes of telling him to go sniff, he decided he was ready to work, so we worked! We worked on heeling, and he did a great job. Worked on play and he actually tugged! In a training facility! He's never done that before. I guess the secret was just to get him relaxed first, and then have better mechanics of introducing the toy. The whole thing went really well.

I had some interesting takeaways for him. First, when he's ping ponging around on the end of the leash doing frantic sniffing, there's really not much I can do. Follow him around, let him check things out, and let him get it out of his system. If he makes eye contact, tell him to keep sniffing and don't reward it. I reward it, and while he eventually gives me more and more eye contact, any work I get is a result of him putting his stress into the work. It's not relaxed engaged work. So I need to stop asking him to work when he's like that and just let him deal with it on his own time. Once his sniffing is more of the calm relaxed curious sniffing, then I can start rewarding for eye contact and releasing to sniff until he's ready to work. 

And I really need to spend more time letting him check things out on his own without trying to manage him or give him treats. I didn't have any treats on me when we got there, and I made an effort to just follow him and do what he wanted. I didn't let him run towards any dogs, and I kept him in safe areas, but otherwise I let him lead the show. And then we sat down in the corner and watched everyone as long as I didn't think it would set him off (like when people started retrieving with their dogs in the ring near us I put him away). I spend so much time trying to manage him that he never gets to check things out and really get comfortable with them. Denise emphasized this a lot, and it's exactly what I've been reading in BAT 2.0.


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## TGKvr

I have some similar issues with my girl being a little crazy in new situations. She calms down after a bit, but those first few moments... wow. So the problem I encounter, though, is that we treat-train mostly. So I often, if not always, have treats in my pocket. Now I don't use them for EVERYTHING, but definitely for high-stress environment training. Well what I've discovered is... any other dogs around shortly figure out that I have treats, and they want some too. And my dog doesn't always love that. She's mostly friendly, but lately she gets a little territorial when I give her treats around other dogs, and doesn't like when I give other dogs treats. I tried at one point to make her sit-stay and watch while I hand out treats to other dogs because I *don't* want her to be upset by it. And sometimes she's OK with it, but sometimes not. This weekend, she was meeting new dogs and they were sniffing butts, and after a minute or so I called her away to me and she came - which was awesome! So I treated her, but the other dog saw and came near and she snapped at him. Sigh. Training is so hard sometimes. It's really tough to figure out what is appropriate in some situations.


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> I have some similar issues with my girl being a little crazy in new situations. She calms down after a bit, but those first few moments... wow. So the problem I encounter, though, is that we treat-train mostly. So I often, if not always, have treats in my pocket. Now I don't use them for EVERYTHING, but definitely for high-stress environment training. Well what I've discovered is... any other dogs around shortly figure out that I have treats, and they want some too. And my dog doesn't always love that. She's mostly friendly, but lately she gets a little territorial when I give her treats around other dogs, and doesn't like when I give other dogs treats. I tried at one point to make her sit-stay and watch while I hand out treats to other dogs because I *don't* want her to be upset by it. And sometimes she's OK with it, but sometimes not. This weekend, she was meeting new dogs and they were sniffing butts, and after a minute or so I called her away to me and she came - which was awesome! So I treated her, but the other dog saw and came near and she snapped at him. Sigh. Training is so hard sometimes. It's really tough to figure out what is appropriate in some situations.


My dogs just don't meet strange dogs. Problem solved. Haha. At least they wouldn't be around strange dogs if I needed to be treating them for some reason.


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## TGKvr

Well that's not an option for me.... almost all of our friends have dogs, and we take our dog almost everywhere we go. So she's always meeting new dogs and most times she likes them and plays with them but there are a few here and there she doesn't care for. Now that she's getting older, her adult personality is really coming out and I'm learning her "signs". She doesn't seem to care for timid, fearful dogs and prefers bold, playful dogs. So due to our lifestyle, I'd really like to figure out the best way to approach this type of situation because at only a year and a half old, we're going to encounter similar situations many times in the future. I mean now I know that I just can't use a treat, and I still say "YES" when she does something right, but saying "YES" isn't always super effective with her. I know I can't expect perfection and I know she won't love every dog, ever, but trying to balance our normal training methods with highly stimulating environments is a challenge.


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> Well that's not an option for me.... almost all of our friends have dogs, and we take our dog almost everywhere we go. So she's always meeting new dogs and most times she likes them and plays with them but there are a few here and there she doesn't care for. Now that she's getting older, her adult personality is really coming out and I'm learning her "signs". She doesn't seem to care for timid, fearful dogs and prefers bold, playful dogs. So due to our lifestyle, I'd really like to figure out the best way to approach this type of situation because at only a year and a half old, we're going to encounter similar situations many times in the future. I mean now I know that I just can't use a treat, and I still say "YES" when she does something right, but saying "YES" isn't always super effective with her. I know I can't expect perfection and I know she won't love every dog, ever, but trying to balance our normal training methods with highly stimulating environments is a challenge.


Like I said, don't use treats around other dogs. She can still greet them, and you can still carry treats, but don't give her treats with strange dogs in range if she doesn't like it. Wait until you've moved on.

And if she's overstimulated in the first place, I really wouldn't let her greet strange dogs. Eventually that's not going to end well.


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## Kyllobernese

M dogs never meet other dogs when they are on leash. I have never seen any need for it especially when they are at a training class. As some of my dogs are going to be doing Agility, the last thing you want is for them to want to run up to other dogs. I also do not give treats to other dogs or want anyone to give my dogs treats. It may sound a little strict but my dogs have lots of time to play with other dogs at the appropriate times and it saves having to retrain them when you want them to be just focusing on you. Kris has always been a little reactive with other dogs when she is on leash which I have always worked on so I can take her to trials without her bothering about the other dogs. I can take her off leash and run Agility without worrying about her leaving the ring or running up to another dog, the same with heeling off leash in Obedience or Rally. She has been to Doggy Daycare several times when I have had to board her and does fine, no problems.


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## elrohwen

Kyllobernese said:


> M dogs never meet other dogs when they are on leash. I have never seen any need for it especially when they are at a training class. As some of my dogs are going to be doing Agility, the last thing you want is for them to want to run up to other dogs. I also do not give treats to other dogs or want anyone to give my dogs treats. It may sound a little strict but my dogs have lots of time to play with other dogs at the appropriate times and it saves having to retrain them when you want them to be just focusing on you. Kris has always been a little reactive with other dogs when she is on leash which I have always worked on so I can take her to trials without her bothering about the other dogs. I can take her off leash and run Agility without worrying about her leaving the ring or running up to another dog, the same with heeling off leash in Obedience or Rally. She has been to Doggy Daycare several times when I have had to board her and does fine, no problems.


Yep, this exactly.

My dogs have dog friends who come over for play dates, but I don't see any reason for them to greet strange dogs on leash while we're talking or at a training class.


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## CptJack

You can let your dog play with and meet other dogs - and have her around other dogs - without letting her meet ALL of them just because they're there and she wants to. Put it on a cue, reinforce leave it, and only allow her to meet them on your terms, when she's behaving. If she gets out of line, play time ends. It's not one or the other. 

In other news, Molly is acting like a normal dog around the neighborhood. I'm afraid to take this further. I'm going to, but I'm scared because it's so good right now I feel like one wrong move and it's going to break and I'm going to be back to having a panic attack at the end of my leash instead of a happy dog.


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## TGKvr

Yes, like I said - I've learned not to treat her around other dogs now. So now that I know it's an issue, that's easy enough to fix. But it's impossible not to let her meet strange dogs. My routine is pretty consistent when we go to new places. She's always on-leash until she can settle down, ignore the other dogs, and down-stay comfortably, at which point I'll let her off leash to play and do her thing. But I can't prevent her from greeting other dogs when *they* are all off-leash. And I'm not at the point yet where I'm 100% comfortable letting her have an initial greeting off-leash. When she's on, I can control her. When she's off, I can't. Simple as that. So even if there's a bit of an imbalance there, I'm not going to risk her or another dog getting hurt by letting an off-leash greeting get out of control. And truly, how is she to learn polite greetings on-leash unless that's how we do it? I need her to be polite both ways, and until she's older and more trustworthy, it's my opinion that the safest way is to keep her on-leash. So when we arrive at a place, I'll let her sniff the other dogs for a minute or so, then I'll turn and walk her around for a while. Usually other dogs will trail us as we do so. That's fine. Once we can walk around and she can show she's calm and ignoring the other dogs, I'll make her lay down. If she's relaxed at that point, then I'll take off her leash and let her at it. Typically this approach works well, but it's difficult without the treats to maintain consistency with her responses to me.


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## Canyx

CptJack, AWESOME news re: neighborhood progress. I can understand how it can be scary to push the boundaries when things are finally going well. But I hope you do it and I hope you and Molly ROCK it  I anticipate you both will!

Elrowhen, I am super jealous you attended a Fenzi seminar! I think I get zero big wig R+ trainers come my side of the mountains. But I would leap at that opportunity if I had it!

TGK, I'm having a hard time picturing your scenario. If you are in a dog park, then I can understand how all the dogs are offleash and greeting/playing with each other. You write: 

"I'll let her off leash to play and do her thing. But I can't prevent her from greeting other dogs when *they* are all off-leash. And I'm not at the point yet where I'm 100% comfortable letting her have an initial greeting off-leash. When she's on, I can control her. When she's off, I can't. Simple as that. So even if there's a bit of an imbalance there, I'm not going to risk her or another dog getting hurt by letting an off-leash greeting get out of control. "

I just see a lot of contradictory statements in there. You let her off leash. You can't control her when she's off leash so you don't want to let an off leash greeting get out of control. But you let her off leash. I guess where you are is important? With my dog, he is reactive at close range but I still hike offleash with him in national forest/recreation areas where dogs are allowed offleash. Inevitably dogs will run up to us. My dog has a solid recall (never in recent memory do I remember failing to call him to me before a dog approached) and usually wears a muzzle. It is still not 100% ideal when I take him on high traffic days but hey, the woods call! My point is, I understand if you are picking and choosing your battles. But if you are worried about interactions and you have no control off leash, I would recommend building more control off leash and meanwhile keeping her on leash in those situations. Give her offleash time with dogs you KNOW she will do well with and let those times be play times, not training times (until she is capable of working in those situations). Also, you have an APBT, if I recall. If I were in your shoes with a dog that age I would be focusing way more on on-leash impulse control than off-leash manners. But I am still a little confused because you also write:

"So when we arrive at a place, I'll let her sniff the other dogs for a minute or so, then I'll turn and walk her around for a while. Usually other dogs will trail us as we do so. That's fine."

And that sounds just about perfect? I agree with elrowhen that if treats are the only problem here then don't bring out the treats in those situations, which you are already doing. If she is great with these dogs you are around then reward her good behavior with off leash time and let her do her thing! If you want to be a ninja you might could reward check-ins with treats but of course judge the situation to see if other dogs are too close. 

Take a gander at this recent thread about fading treats: http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/435457-how-fade-treats-while.html

"And truly, how is she to learn polite greetings on-leash unless that's how we do it?"

That comes with both parties doing proper leash introductions with well socialized dogs, keeping introductions short and maybe throwing in some calm verbal praise for appropriate interactions, and then moving both dogs away. Here are a few reasons why some dogs (including mine) can be so horrible with leashed interactions:

-one or both dogs lack impulse control and rush in to do an abrupt nose-to-nose greeting
-or the owners don't take the time to do some parallel walking, follows, and have the dogs meet while calm and meet nose to tail.
-one or both dogs are inept at social interactions in general, due to poor socialization, traumatic experiences, genetics, or who knows.
-one or both owners are reprimanding the dog, giving off nervous signals, looming, and/or keeping a tight leash
-one or both owners stop watching closely after the first couple seconds assuming things are okay and fail to pull their dogs out when the greeting becomes more tense
-one or both owners fail to see that the dogs have been tense and do not pull their dogs out 
-one or both owners fail to see that the other dog is tense BEFORE letting their dog approach, in a situation where one or both dogs did not have a real interest in approaching anyways

In the dog world, polite greetings are calm, nose to butt, and SHORT. Either the two dogs decide they like each other and go into play, or they are done and move on. Very opposite from how most dogs greet each other these days. The impulse control part where your dog doesn't just rush another dog, comes with training and management.


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## TGKvr

> TGK, I'm having a hard time picturing your scenario. If you are in a dog park, then I can understand how all the dogs are offleash and greeting/playing with each other. You write:
> 
> "I'll let her off leash to play and do her thing. But I can't prevent her from greeting other dogs when *they* are all off-leash. And I'm not at the point yet where I'm 100% comfortable letting her have an initial greeting off-leash. When she's on, I can control her. When she's off, I can't. Simple as that. So even if there's a bit of an imbalance there, I'm not going to risk her or another dog getting hurt by letting an off-leash greeting get out of control. "
> 
> I just see a lot of contradictory statements in there. You let her off leash. You can't control her when she's off leash so you don't want to let an off leash greeting get out of control. But you let her off leash. I guess where you are is important? With my dog, he is reactive at close range but I still hike offleash with him in national forest/recreation areas where dogs are allowed offleash. Inevitably dogs will run up to us. My dog has a solid recall (never in recent memory do I remember failing to call him to me before a dog approached) and usually wears a muzzle. It is still not 100% ideal when I take him on high traffic days but hey, the woods call! My point is, I understand if you are picking and choosing your battles. But if you are worried about interactions and you have no control off leash, I would recommend building more control off leash and meanwhile keeping her on leash in those situations. Give her offleash time with dogs you KNOW she will do well with and let those times be play times, not training times (until she is capable of working in those situations). Also, you have an APBT, if I recall. If I were in your shoes with a dog that age I would be focusing way more on on-leash impulse control than off-leash manners.


Yes, I can see why there is some confusion about the scenarios when I read my posts back. So basically, she actually has really good off-leash control most of the time. When we train at home, it's almost always off-leash. When we hike, if I know the area, I'll hike with her off-leash as well. Her recall is solid. Her heels are solid, as are her sit-stays and down-stays. The trouble comes when we go to a new place, or even a place with which she is familiar, and there are a number of dogs already present that are off-leash. Essentially, hardly anyone in our friend circles EVER leash their dogs. So when we arrive, we are bombarded by dogs sniffing her, and I never let her out of the car at a new place unless she is leashed because I'm just uncomfortable with letting her loose in that environment. (When I said "control", I just meant that I can't control other people's dogs, or their behavior, or tell my friends to leash their dogs for greetings, but I sure can control MINE 100% if I have her on a leash - it's just a matter of knowing what is in my power to control or not, rather than meaning she doesn't listen to me off-leash) So I will typically get out of the car, then let her sniff/be sniffed for a few seconds, praising throughout, then I walk her AWAY from the group of dogs. Depending on where we are, I'll walk the perimeter, or whatever. Most times, she knows most of the dogs already but even if not we follow the same routine, and when we reach the point where she's walking along calmly, can ignore the other dogs following us, and is listening really well (usually takes about 5-10 minutes or so), then I'll let her off-leash to play. I usually don't let her play for more than 5 or 10 minutes at a time before I'll call her back to me - so we practice recalls while she's playing. And she's usually very good at that. She is not an APBT, but an Alapaha Bulldog so... still bully, with bully tendencies. She likes rough and tumble play and I just feel like I need to watch her diligently at all times. If she snaps or if there is any scrapping (which we are only JUST starting to encounter now), then she gets put back on leash or made to down-stay for a while before being released back to play.

I will check out that link, that looks like good reading. And I think your checklist of on-leash greeting signs is spot-on... I try to really pay attention to their body language and keep interactions short, but I can only do so much when I'm only working with MY dog. No one else really seems to care, and they all just have a "let the dogs work it out" mentality and I get judged a LOT for my more strict methods of greetings. I guess I can be paranoid at times, but in the same token, she is a bully breed. I have had an APBT before, so I'm familiar with bullies and know that sometimes they can be a little unpredictable. I'm sure that my level of tension sometimes doesn't help and I really work hard on that but it's easier said than done. I try to take deep breaths, offer praise during greetings, and walk her away after a few seconds. But it's when the other dogs come up to her where things sort of fall apart because she gets so excited. So there are times when I'm on a constant on-off leash cycle depending on her behavior.

I don't know, maybe there's not a problem here at all but I just want to know that I'm handling these situations appropriately and giving her the best chance of friendly greetings/interactions. I want to set her up for success, and I know I can be my own worst enemy at times, but I try hard to relax and as soon as she's relaxed reward her with off-leash play. She really does get along with 95% of the dogs she meets so I really don't have a lot of cause to think she'll be aggressive, but the few times I've seen it, she has been reactive due to being rushed by other dogs and I don't know what to do about that. If anything. I guess I feel like she is a year and a half now, so NOW is the time to really focus on these things and develop consistency.

(FWIW, when we go out in other public spaces, like Tractor Supply, Cabelas, the pet store, hiking trails, etc. she is perfectly behaved and ignores other dogs really well on-leash with lots of "leave-it". It's the more social interactions where things become different)

I hope that helps to clarify the situation? Or maybe I've made it more confusing?


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## elrohwen

If they think you're paranoid, I don't want to know what they would think about me! Just reading about the typical scenario made my stomach a little queasy. I wouldn't even take my dogs to something like that.


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## Canyx

My dog's life is completely different from yours, I'm sure. But I just want to say that what I am reading is sounding scary familiar. My love-everyone dog, totally fine with that initial mobbing by a group of dogs including some dogs he knew, started snapping 'just a little' at around 1.5 years of age. I thought nothing of it because, hey, we've been with the same general crowd of dogs since he was something like 14 weeks old and every week of his life for multiple days a week he'd play with all kinds of dogs. But the snapping became ever so slightly more frequent as I continued to put him in those situations. It used to be just once in a blue moon too. Like you said, 95% of dogs he was great with. That number quickly got smaller and smaller. Nowadays it is around 50%. And for the rest of my dog's adult life past the two year mark, I've had to deal with zero to 60 reactions. He's 10 years old now.

This may be the absolute opposite from how your story pans out. But I couldn't not share my experience because sometimes it happens that way too. Who knows though, maybe your girl will be completely appropriate for the rest of her life and just occasionally give a minor snap to ward the 5% she doesn't like away. It's really impossible to tell. BUT. It is possible to start putting the odds in your favor. That initial mobbing in a group of dogs may end up being fine for her forever. But generally speaking for how dogs interact in general, it does not put the odds in your favor. Every time she snaps or scuffles, your chances go down a bit. GREAT that you can manage her after the fact, and I can too with mine. But if you can catch her before, like you have been doing with watching her play and calling her back when things even look like they start escalating, prevention in this case is worth a ton more than cure. Down the line it is teaching HER to deescalate. Play should not get to the point where scuffles happen. Understandably, life happens and there will always be mistakes. But as many as you can prevent will be to your advantage.

If I could turn back the clock, I would have not put him in those situations anymore. I sincerely think I would have a different dog now if I took those precautions. Just saying. And you have a bully breed so you KNOW that the tendency is to lean away from loving all dogs anyways. I know these are your friends. I know things have been 99% great so far. But think hard about these setups and what you can do to ensure, to the best of your ability, that they go well. If you throw your dog in with your friends dogs with people who expect dogs to just 'work it out.' You are passively going along with the 'work it out' mentality.


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## CptJack

Thanks! 

I'm actually feeling a lot like i'm socializing an 8 week old puppy again. Weird things going on? Let's just go out, sit down and watch for a while. Spot a dog we've never noticed? Let's go stand there for a little bit and check it out until she's ready to move on. Just - Yeah, general puppy socializing things all over again, and probably getting a rep as a bit of a nut around the neighborhood. 

We've got plans to meet up with some people and their dogs in May, to see how things go. We'll take it from there.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I'm actually feeling a lot like i'm socializing an 8 week old puppy again. Weird things going on? Let's just go out, sit down and watch for a while. Spot a dog we've never noticed? Let's go stand there for a little bit and check it out until she's ready to move on. Just - Yeah, general puppy socializing things all over again, and probably getting a rep as a bit of a nut around the neighborhood.


I'm kind of in the same place with Watson right now. His issue is mostly dogs, but also just feeling comfortable enough in a new place to work vs just sniffing around endlessly. I spent most of his life trying to "fix" his reactivity by constantly rewarding eye contact, training leave it, feeding feeding feeding when other dogs went by. Now that he's well trained in those areas and I can use that to control him, I've come around to the idea that I need to let him interact with the world without my interference. I just got BAT 2.0 and it's totally different from the first one. She does explain some BAT 1.0 ideas in case things are getting hairy and you need to get the dog out of there in a positive way, but generally it involves following the dog around on a long line and letting them make decisions. If they try to charge towards a trigger you stop that, but if they are gradually approaching at their own speed then you let them do it. If they want to watch calmly, let them do it. No food, no reinforcement, because it's too easy to have a dog follow food into a situation they aren't comfortable with and then they explode when the food is gone. Denise Fenzi mentioned basically the same thing during her seminar and I said it was like BAT 2.0, and she said it's one of those situations where a bunch of trainers have kind of come to the same understanding at the same time as they talk to each other and work with dogs, and this is kind of the new recommendation. It's pretty interesting and pretty much the opposite of what I've always done. Not that I won't still use food and leave it to manage him if we're on a walk and end up too close to other dogs, but I've had a shift in how I try to work with him in general.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I'm kind of in the same place with Watson right now. His issue is mostly dogs, but also just feeling comfortable enough in a new place to work vs just sniffing around endlessly. I spent most of his life trying to "fix" his reactivity by constantly rewarding eye contact, training leave it, feeding feeding feeding when other dogs went by. Now that he's well trained in those areas and I can use that to control him, I've come around to the idea that I need to let him interact with the world without my interference. I just got BAT 2.0 and it's totally different from the first one. She does explain some BAT 1.0 ideas in case things are getting hairy and you need to get the dog out of there in a positive way, but generally it involves following the dog around on a long line and letting them make decisions. If they try to charge towards a trigger you stop that, but if they are gradually approaching at their own speed then you let them do it. If they want to watch calmly, let them do it. No food, no reinforcement, because it's too easy to have a dog follow food into a situation they aren't comfortable with and then they explode when the food is gone. Denise Fenzi mentioned basically the same thing during her seminar and I said it was like BAT 2.0, and she said it's one of those situations where a bunch of trainers have kind of come to the same understanding at the same time as they talk to each other and work with dogs, and this is kind of the new recommendation. It's pretty interesting and pretty much the opposite of what I've always done. Not that I won't still use food and leave it to manage him if we're on a walk and end up too close to other dogs, but I've had a shift in how I try to work with him in general.


I find it mildly neat that I came to the conclusion that food and Molly when it comes to reactivity or even socialization is just not a good mix. It isn't that she won't take the food - she will - it's that the food either, yeah, encourages her to do things that freak her out or she just eats the food while she's being freaked out and doesn't pay any attention or get any more comfortable. Talking to her really helps, though. Not commands, just - talk. Some praise/reassurance stuff.

I literally spent about 20 minutes today sitting on the sidewalk watching some guys with shovels dig out a hedge, and another 5 while she watched a new pit bull (out on a tie out) until she was ready to move on. It's honestly the kind of thing I would do if she was 8 weeks old and experiencing the world for the first time. 

The BAT 2.0 sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> I find it mildly neat that I came to the conclusion that food and Molly when it comes to reactivity or even socialization is just not a good mix. It isn't that she won't take the food - she will - it's that the food either, yeah, encourages her to do things that freak her out or she just eats the food while she's being freaked out and doesn't pay any attention or get any more comfortable. Talking to her really helps, though. Not commands, just - talk. Some praise/reassurance stuff.
> 
> I literally spent about 20 minutes today sitting on the sidewalk watching some guys with shovels dig out a hedge, and another 5 while she watched a new pit bull (out on a tie out) until she was ready to move on. It's honestly the kind of thing I would do if she was 8 weeks old and experiencing the world for the first time.
> 
> The BAT 2.0 sounds interesting. I'll have to check it out.


I have the original book and got halfway through before I thought, "I'm never going to do this many set ups, this is unrealistic. Oh well"

But I really like BAT 2.0. It does tell you to do set ups, but honestly as long as you have a big enough area where you can stay back away from triggers (especially for dogs like Watson who aren't afraid of every person or thing that might appear) you don't need someone to help you. For later stages or more specific things that might be helpful (like getting close to a dog), but I think we can do plenty with just going places and letting him check things out on his own with less input from me. It also has a whole chapter on handy leash handling tips for using a long line, which is good for dogs like mine who ping pong around.


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## CptJack

Oh man, anything that helps remove some of those set ups. I *do* have dog people I can do things with some, but the pure amount of stuff the BAT thing I read suggested - there was just no way. Even if I'd really, really, wanted to do it, having access to that many dogs and people was not going to happen. I can arrange a set up once a week for an hour several months out of the year, if I really work hard at it and am lucky. More than that? Lol, no.


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## elrohwen

And Denise's whole thing lately is letting the dog really satiate and check out the environment as much as possible. Dogs will look back and make eye contact because that's what we've trained, but it doesn't always mean they are ready to work just yet. Watson will look at me within a few seconds, and he might do one cue, but then he checks out again. In the seminar I spent 5 whole minutes telling Watson to sniff and rewarding check ins until it was painfully clear that he was really done sniffing and wanted to do stuff with me. After that he worked/played for 15min with only one brief sniff session, and I wasn't stuffing food in his face to keep his interest either.

I know what we're going to do in our first private agility lesson at the new facility next month!


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Oh man, anything that helps remove some of those set ups. I *do* have dog people I can do things with some, but the pure amount of stuff the BAT thing I read suggested - there was just no way. Even if I'd really, really, wanted to do it, having access to that many dogs and people was not going to happen. I can arrange a set up once a week for an hour several months out of the year, if I really work hard at it and am lucky. More than that? Lol, no.


Yeah, right? That's how I felt too. It was unrealistic. And the author admits that she encouraged people to get too close so that things could get dicey. Make the right choice, you move the dog away. Make the wrong choice and your dog blows up. Her new method involves staying much further back where the dog can check things out as his own pace and then move forward when he's ready. So yeah, go to a moderately quiet park where dogs aren't going to pop out of nowhere and just wander.


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## TGKvr

Canyx said:


> My dog's life is completely different from yours, I'm sure. But I just want to say that what I am reading is sounding scary familiar. My love-everyone dog, totally fine with that initial mobbing by a group of dogs including some dogs he knew, started snapping 'just a little' at around 1.5 years of age. I thought nothing of it because, hey, we've been with the same general crowd of dogs since he was something like 14 weeks old and every week of his life for multiple days a week he'd play with all kinds of dogs. But the snapping became ever so slightly more frequent as I continued to put him in those situations. It used to be just once in a blue moon too. Like you said, 95% of dogs he was great with. That number quickly got smaller and smaller. Nowadays it is around 50%. And for the rest of my dog's adult life past the two year mark, I've had to deal with zero to 60 reactions. He's 10 years old now.
> 
> This may be the absolute opposite from how your story pans out. But I couldn't not share my experience because sometimes it happens that way too. Who knows though, maybe your girl will be completely appropriate for the rest of her life and just occasionally give a minor snap to ward the 5% she doesn't like away. It's really impossible to tell. BUT. It is possible to start putting the odds in your favor. That initial mobbing in a group of dogs may end up being fine for her forever. But generally speaking for how dogs interact in general, it does not put the odds in your favor. Every time she snaps or scuffles, your chances go down a bit. GREAT that you can manage her after the fact, and I can too with mine. But if you can catch her before, like you have been doing with watching her play and calling her back when things even look like they start escalating, prevention in this case is worth a ton more than cure. Down the line it is teaching HER to deescalate. Play should not get to the point where scuffles happen. Understandably, life happens and there will always be mistakes. But as many as you can prevent will be to your advantage.
> 
> If I could turn back the clock, I would have not put him in those situations anymore. I sincerely think I would have a different dog now if I took those precautions. Just saying. And you have a bully breed so you KNOW that the tendency is to lean away from loving all dogs anyways. I know these are your friends. I know things have been 99% great so far. But think hard about these setups and what you can do to ensure, to the best of your ability, that they go well. If you throw your dog in with your friends dogs with people who expect dogs to just 'work it out.' You are passively going along with the 'work it out' mentality.


Thanks for sharing... and yes, that future is one that I'm trying to prevent now, while she's young. But if it happens, it happens - I knew it was a chance when I got another bully breed, so if that's the case then I'll figure out how to best manage and she might need to go less places with me. I really hope that doesn't happen though, but we'll see. I've tried to reason with my friends and explain to them how *I* prefer to train my dog, and that it would be super helpful if they would accommodate and keep their dogs restrained during these initial stages of gathering. Most of them just say I'm being too controlling, and it's the leash that's causing the problems, it's all my fault and not the dog, and they don't want to admit that the lack of control they have over their dogs is affecting me and my dog. So far she hasn't been in a real fight, and I'd like to keep it that way. Some snarls and scraps, but like you say - I know the first time she's really in a true dog fight that she'll be more likely to get involved next time. So if I'm in a situation where I'm uncomfortable with it, I just put her on a leash and save myself the headache. It really just blows my mind that most of my friends don't think that way, though, and don't understand that you don't just throw a bunch of random dogs together to "work it out". Last time someone said that to me, I just replied "And I don't tell you how to raise your kids, so don't tell me how to raise my dog". Fortunately we don't have a lot of problems within the dog circle but there ARE some, inevitably, at times. Now our closest friends do actually understand, and they are good about doing whatever I want them to do... but other friends, whom I love dearly, just don't get it. And some of these people have dogs that are known in our circle to be instigators, and aggressive (a shepherd mix, a heeler, and a border collie are the worst of the culprits - each one of those dogs has either bitten a person or caused vet-level injury to another dog). I sometimes wonder if they even own a leash. It's to the point where some of us plan to straight up say those dogs aren't welcome anymore because they're the catalysts - and my dog isn't going to back down if she's accosted, so I've seen. 

Aaaaggghhh, it's just frustrating sometimes and I really hope it's just some minor clashes in personality that I have to deal with vs. having a dog I can't take anywhere anymore. We're woodsy people, so... lots of camping, hiking, backpacking, caving, you name it. So ideally I'd like to find a balance in our lifestyle and how she fits into it, friends and other dogs included. The funny thing is that when I was ready for another dog after our old girl passed away, I thought I'd just get a shelter mutt - I said I wasn't going to get another pit, as much as I love them. And I didn't but... my other half discovered this breed, met a few dogs that he fell in love with, and I was so beyond ready for another dog that we jumped on it and before we knew it, was researching and contacting breeders. I love bully breeds, and she is amazing - so smart and sweet and friendly. It stresses me out when I have to take her into a situation with other dogs and I always waver whether it's better to expose her to it and train her reactions appropriately, or not take her at all and risk her not having that experience... and that's often far more difficult and expensive to plan (finding sitter, taking her there, putting her in a kennel which... I don't love, but will do if need be...). Also everyone loves her - she is SO endearing, so on the rare cases I show up somewhere without her, they all think it's unfair. Haha!

I think maybe, talking this out here, I might try a middle of the road approach. Like... maybe just limit her exposure a little more for a while and see how that goes. I know I overthink things, especially when in reality she's given few reasons to be so paranoid so far, but the reason I do so is EXACTLY due to the story you told about your dog. AND the fact that I know bullies and understand their tendencies, and how they often manifest a little later in life. I just really wish that the majority of people I hang out with felt the same way and supported my training methods a little more by handling their dogs a little more closely. It's the humans that are the problem here!


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## TGKvr

OK so having just read the whole Khoeler thread, with that in mind... curious as to the best approach for the following scenario.

I'm walking my dog on-leash, and a strange dog (or dogs) come up to my dog to greet. They all sniff butts, happy, tails wagging. My dog's tail suddenly stops wagging, but before I walk her away, she snaps at one of the other dogs. How do you correct that behavior AT THE TIME? I haven't had this happen YET because I'm usually quick to walk her away after a few seconds of sniffing, but as mentioned before, prevention and setting her up for success is key. So with the concept that aggression begets aggression, what is the proper response when that DOES happen? The few times she has been snappish so far has been either when treats were involved, or as reactive behavior to an aggressive dog. I feel like I'm bound to encounter this, so I should probably figure out how best to deal with it. And is there a different correction approach when a dog is on leash vs. off leash?

Thoughts?


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## CptJack

Honestly? You don't. You can't correct the dog for an emotional state. That's what going sniff and snapping amounts to. You get the heck out for safety - emergency u-turn on cue is my favorite - but the dog being over aroused, afraid, uncomfortable, or just not liking what is happening is an emotional state. You try to correct your dog for that you MIGHT get lucky and shut the reaction down, but you won't make her like the situation/dog/dogs anymore and you might well make her associate the correction with the dog rather than her behavior and like them LESS and make that reaction MORE likely. You might get super, duper, 'lucky' and have the dog shut down initial warnings (growling, stiffening, air snapping) and still hate the dog more so you have a dog who doesn't give them but goes straight for more serious attacks. 

So. I mean it sucks but the answer there really is "you don't". No point. Not a correctable offense. Work more on keeping your dog's attention, keeping your down under threshold, managing your dog, working more on impulse control, whatever, but you can't correct a dog for not liking other dogs and expect it to make any difference at all.

(ETA: I know you're talking about situations where she's getting mobbed while she's on leash because of the people you're with and honestly I just don't have an answer, but bottom line? You can't correct for this because it's down to 'I don't like this situation/dog'. There's... nothing there that corrections will help. 

And I'm someone who has unapologetically used prongs and uses an e-collar cranked up in some situations so it's not like I'm anti-correction, it's just that it isn't appropriate here.


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## elrohwen

100% agree. There's nothing to correct and correcting isn't going to change her mind about the other dog.


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## CptJack

Relevant.


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## Pomom

This discussion helped me so much! I have recently started taking Sybbie to the dog park and I find dogs sniff her FACE and she snaps (air). I definitely don't want to have this escalate so I think I have to just not let this situation arise. She is very small so sometimes I pick her up when there are excited dogs near by but sometimes they will jump up on me to get to her. I don't want to stop going because it is good socialization time for me, but maybe I need to be more careful before habits form. Thanks!


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## MysticRealm

With all the very in depth, serious training talk going on here, it seems silly to post my little diddy, but my little 8 month old pom has been to a total of 4 handling classes (learning to show dogs so when I get my standard poodle pup in a few weeks I have some sort of foundation), and one of those classes I borrowed him to a 9 year old girl to practice with (her bernese mountain dog and golden that she was practicing on while waiting on her show dog were just dragging her around and she couldn't learn anything from them). We have done no training for this outside of those classes and yet he's practically the perfect little show dog. Stacks all by himself! Trots the cutest trot! If only he was show quality!!
A tiny video of him just walking into some stacks (very hard to handle a lead, a phone, and treats at the same time!


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## elrohwen

MysticRealm said:


> With all the very in depth, serious training talk going on here, it seems silly to post my little diddy, but my little 8 month old pom has been to a total of 4 handling classes (learning to show dogs so when I get my standard poodle pup in a few weeks I have some sort of foundation), and one of those classes I borrowed him to a 9 year old girl to practice with (her bernese mountain dog and golden that she was practicing on while waiting on her show dog were just dragging her around and she couldn't learn anything from them). We have done no training for this outside of those classes and yet he's practically the perfect little show dog. Stacks all by himself! Trots the cutest trot! If only he was show quality!!
> A tiny video of him just walking into some stacks (very hard to handle a lead, a phone, and treats at the same time!


He's so cute! Look at that free stack!


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## TGKvr

CptJack said:


> Honestly? You don't. You can't correct the dog for an emotional state. That's what going sniff and snapping amounts to. You get the heck out for safety - emergency u-turn on cue is my favorite - but the dog being over aroused, afraid, uncomfortable, or just not liking what is happening is an emotional state. You try to correct your dog for that you MIGHT get lucky and shut the reaction down, but you won't make her like the situation/dog/dogs anymore and you might well make her associate the correction with the dog rather than her behavior and like them LESS and make that reaction MORE likely. You might get super, duper, 'lucky' and have the dog shut down initial warnings (growling, stiffening, air snapping) and still hate the dog more so you have a dog who doesn't give them but goes straight for more serious attacks.
> 
> So. I mean it sucks but the answer there really is "you don't". No point. Not a correctable offense. Work more on keeping your dog's attention, keeping your down under threshold, managing your dog, working more on impulse control, whatever, but you can't correct a dog for not liking other dogs and expect it to make any difference at all.
> 
> (ETA: I know you're talking about situations where she's getting mobbed while she's on leash because of the people you're with and honestly I just don't have an answer, but bottom line? You can't correct for this because it's down to 'I don't like this situation/dog'. There's... nothing there that corrections will help.
> 
> And I'm someone who has unapologetically used prongs and uses an e-collar cranked up in some situations so it's not like I'm anti-correction, it's just that it isn't appropriate here.


Thanks... and this makes sense. Well fortunately I haven't had this specific scenario pop up yet and thus far she is far more playful than anything else. I guess I just want to be prepared to nip these things in the bud if/when it becomes a problem. Having a bully dog, as many of you know, means that I'm a little sensitive to judgement and I'm prone to being a tad obsessive about appropriate behavior. I just want her to be the best ambassador of her breed that she can be and sometimes I may go overboard with it.  For now I'll just continue to do what I'm doing, and try to stay relaxed and calm in stressful situations, for her sake. I've also pressed pause on more formal training for the last few months, and our pursuit of the CGC, but perhaps with the weather turning it's time to sign up for the next session again and get back into the groove. And most importantly, just avoid those situations where I know particular problem dogs will be, or keep her leashed if I can't avoid them. I just don't want there to ever be a "first fight" but I'm realistic enough, and have enough dog experience in general, to know that during her lifetime with us it is not improbable. We have a saying in our circle of friends: "It's not a party until there's a dog fight". It's funny, until it's not.


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## CptJack

Your group of friends would give me a heart attack. I think I've had about one dog fight EVER. My dog getting within 10 feet of another dog and snarking off while dancing around made me sit down, hyperventilate and cry (after I had her back). An actual dog fight would send me around the bend. 

Honestly in that particular scenario I'd probably just limit the greeting - all of them - like three seconds and go. Except that involves me being able to GO somewhere, so. I seriously just don't know. Thankful I have really dog savvy friends who don't pull that kind of stuff, I guess. (I have a lot of dog friends, some who are helping me with Molly's stuff but in general our dogs *don't* interact without express permission and set ups and on leash isn't one of those.)


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## TGKvr

Well I love my friends but sometimes I feel like I AM going to have a heart attack! Haha!! And honestly not ALL of them are that way but there are some key folks who just don't seem to get it. But these "key folks" are the ones with trouble-maker dogs. Fortunately the ones we spend the MOST time with, though, understand my methods and are helpful and supportive. And their dogs and mine get along great. I know I make it seem terrifying but in the majority of our gatherings, it's not as intense as I've described. I guess I just like to prepare for the worst-case scenario. I was really stressed about a month or so ago when we had a friend's birthday party - there were 16 dogs there. I was really apprehensive at first, but relaxed once we got there and everyone was calm. Not one fight the whole weekend, and they all played together and lounged around happily. But the two friends with the trouble dogs weren't there, soooo.... that probably was a factor. I was very proud of my girl that weekend, and got lots of compliments about how well trained and friendly she is, but I know I can't expect all gatherings to be like that was.


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## CptJack

I suppose you could always work on avoiding more interactions with those particular dogs/gatherings when those dogs are present. Or just not take her to those if you know they'll be there. Also maybe consider a portable crate and do some work with it, so she has a safe place and you have a means of confinement that *isn't* a leash if it comes to that. I'm just brain storming but ultimately you're the one who knows these people and dogs.

Most of my dog friends are agility friends - actually all of them are - and I guess the rules from that have carried over. We do spend time together with the dogs but it's very much... hands off, limited dog/dog interaction, though thinking about it a lot of agility dogs tend to get over aroused at least so that's definitely a factor.


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## ireth0

I'm going to agree, the best thing you can do is just avoid those situations and/or remove yourself/dog as quickly as possible. 

It's not uncommon or unusual for a leashed dog not to take kindly to getting approached by loose dogs. How would you feel if a bunch of people came toward you while you had your hands tied behind your back? Even if they seemed friendly, you're still on guard because you know you can't properly defend yourself.


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## Kyllobernese

We have no dog parks in our area so the only time Kris comes in contact with a group of dogs is at our Obedience or Agility training so I have never had to be in a situation with a lot of loose dogs. Where I exercise Kris and my other dogs off leash is on the trails out behind our Fairgrounds or out in the open fields. There are not other dogs running around loose, in fact behind the Fairgrounds, if anyone sees someone walking their dogs, they wait until they are finished or go to a different area. Never had to confront a loose dog as people are really polite about giving others their turn.

I know I am going to have a different time with Bonnie, my Golden x Poodle, as she loves everyone and every dog unlike Kris or my Shih Tzu x Maltese that while friendly don't have that love everyone temperaments. She has already had one run-in with a German Shepherd that does not like other dogs when she slipped past me when she was coming down the dog walk and ran up to him. He immediately grabbed her while the owner pulled him up off her and as I reached for her he managed to grab her a second time but luckily no damage was done. It did not phase her at all, she would have run back to him again if I had let her. She is just 8 months old so very much still a puppy.


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## elrohwen

I think I'd be fine with an off leash park that was super spread out, where dogs come up to you occasionally and move on their way. I took Watson to a park like this once when he was younger. I kept him on a long line though because his recall sucked. Other dogs came up, sniffed, and moved along with their owners. I wouldn't worry to much about either of them in that type of situation as long as I could trust their recall. But I wouldn't ever take them some place where lots of off leash dogs mobbed them, even if they knew the dogs. I'm sure somebody would snark at somebody. Mine aren't the type to start a fight beyond snarking, but other dogs will.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Mine aren't the type to start a fight beyond snarking, but other dogs will.


This is actually why Kylie in particular scares me to death. 

She isn't going to FIGHT with another dog, but another dog with crappy manners? She will absolutely correct with an air snap. People actually use her to 'train' puppies to be better behaved/polite since she'll correct them appropriately.

Buuuuut

If it's not someone I know well and dogs I know well? I don't know that they're going to take that correction instead of get scared/offended and, you know, eat her.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> This is actually why Kylie in particular scares me to death.
> 
> She isn't going to FIGHT with another dog, but another dog with crappy manners? She will absolutely correct with an air snap. People actually use her to 'train' puppies to be better behaved/polite since she'll correct them.
> 
> Buuuuut
> 
> If it's not someone I know well and dogs I know well? I don't know that they're going to take that correction instead of get scared/offended and, you know, eat her.


Watson isn't usually snarky, but if he figures out it's an intact male he'll start barking really loudly and aggressively. The one time he was off leash he charged the other dog barking, but stayed about 2ft away from him. The other dog was awesome, and my trainer made sure he didn't do anything, but most dogs would've attacked Watson for doing something like that. But if he likes a dog he'll take corrections all day. He kept trying to play with a female sheltie who growled and bared her teeth every time he got close. lol

Hazel has been snarky a couple times. And she doesn't take snarking very well either. I still don't think she'd fight, but I'm less sure than I am of Watson.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Watson isn't usually snarky, but if he figures out it's an intact male he'll start barking really loudly and aggressively. The one time he was off leash he charged the other dog barking, but stayed about 2ft away from him. The other dog was awesome, and my trainer made sure he didn't do anything, but most dogs would've attacked Watson for doing something like that.
> 
> Hazel has been snarky a couple times.


Yeah, Molly worries me more. She did the 'two feet away and being loud and aggressive' and thank god the instructor was there and the other BC's owner grabbed her. Thud isn't even snarky. The other dogs don't worry me. Bug is endlessly sweet and friendly, if somewhat rude, Jack doesn't care though he gets 'picked on'/wears a kick me sign, and Thud - well, he' varies but if it's away from home he ranges from stoic to playful. 

But Molly will absolutely write checks her butt can't cash, as it were, and Kylie just - Is appropriate but takes no crap.


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## CptJack

Today on my walk with Molly, a guy stopped me to chat. We talked a literal probably five minutes (about her, then about snakes and weather and literal, actual, five minutes). Molly looked at him, then got busy wandering around and seemingly just ignoring him. 

Then she looked up again, saw him again and exploded. 

I mean she came back fairly fast and all, didn't do more than bark but. 

???

*???*


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Today on my walk with Molly, a guy stopped me to chat. We talked a literal probably five minutes (about her, then about snakes and weather and literal, actual, five minutes). Molly looked at him, then got busy wandering around and seemingly just ignoring him.
> 
> Then she looked up again, saw him again and exploded.
> 
> I mean she came back fairly fast and all, didn't do more than bark but.
> 
> ???
> 
> *???*


That's ... really weird and scary.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> That's ... really weird and scary.


Yeah, it was pretty danged unsettling. I honestly don't know what to make of it. The two most likely possibilities are that something happened around us that she was aware of but I wasn't and the barking wasn't actually the guy (possible, this was in a park and she was nosing around some tall weeds near a creek) but seemed to be, or that she had stress building over the duration and I just didn't notice until it got loud (less likely because I was paying SOME attention to her).

But for all the world it looked like she forgot what was happening around her, WHILE IT WAS HAPPENING, and then got startled as heck by it. ...I think I'm going to talk to the vet and get some blood work run, actually. Scenario 1 is possible but the whole 'HOLY CRAP WHAT?' startle was just. Weird. And like you said, scary.


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## Canyx

Weird! Any vehicles going by? Any sudden hand movements by the guy? Also, just a *thought* but could she perhaps have been uncomfortable with the guy to begin with, then did some displacement behaviors (ex. sniffing), then just couldn't hold it in anymore when she exploded? I mean, sniffing is calming... But was it frantic sniffing like 'Ohhhh there's a stranger. I better busy myself with something!'


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## CptJack

Canyx said:


> Weird! Any vehicles going by? Any sudden hand movements by the guy? Also, just a *thought* but could she perhaps have been uncomfortable with the guy to begin with, then did some displacement behaviors (ex. sniffing), then just couldn't hold it in anymore when she exploded? I mean, sniffing is calming... But was it frantic sniffing like 'Ohhhh there's a stranger. I better busy myself with something!'


No vehicles that I noticed, but to be honest I was distracted by the conversation and the dog. 

Might have been displacement behavior, because it was sniffing and rooting around, but she didn't *seem* tense or frantic, and at one point she was laying down and sort of crawling to get further into the tall stuff which was closer to him but. I just don't know. Definitely one of my theories. Right along with 'a crawdad pinched her nose and she freaked' and 'my dog is certifiable'.


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## CrystalGSD

Wow, that _is_ weird! I hope you figure out what's going on.


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## Laurelin

Omg. He realized he can track the things in the air!






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Sl4wkoiqoM

Still not 100% convinced this is a worthwhile game but he's starting to get into it. Last night he was really sprinting and going for it (this was a few days ago).


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## daydreaming

I hope it's okay to ask this here!

I live in a pretty rural town. In my search for trainers, I've only found 2.
One believe in Ceaser Millian, so nixed.
The other only has a FB page for their "website", and I can't explain but my vibe just isn't good.
So my last options are PetCo or PetSmart training. I was thinking about doing the 6 week (I think?) puppy coarse for $119. 
Has anyone used it with success or failure? 
My puppy knows a few things, but doesn't listen when she is excited (sit, shake, off). Does not know how to walk on leash, stay, or really even her name yet. She is 11 weeks, and I've had her a week now. I am told the class usually has up to 5 others, so I would like the socialization part, too.


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## DogtorWho15

Whelp today may have been the worst day ever!! 

So I live right across from a very nice trail that goes through like three different cities (its a really big trail) 
Ive been taking Nova out there to work on her off leash and recall. 
Ive been working on recall as much as possible with my injury and shes been doing really really well, so today I decided to take her out to the trail and see how she did off leash, (this trail is built really strange, it is a pretty big field, and then the trail and then on the other side of the trail is a big wash, and then theres a fence on the other side of the wash that blocks off private livestock property) 

So anyway we get up there, and I let her off and we start walking, and she is following me pretty well and not running of, I decide to give her the cue to do some exploring and call her back when she gets too far, and she comes after the 3rd time or so of me calling her, took a while, but she still always ended up doing it. Then all of a sudden she goes and explores again, this time with the zoomies, she runs down into the wash up over the other side and into the private property with signs everywhere saying trespassers will be shot. So I try calling her, and she isnt even looking my way, Im calling and calling and it isnt working, she is just running having the time of her life while I am trying to stay calm and get her out before something happens...... So I start to run away from her, and I start to act like I fell over and do anything possible!! Im bribing her with chicken and nothing is working at all!!! 
Finally I walk away to go get reinforcements, and the second I am out of sight, she comes and finds me and I collect her, we go home and now she is napping.


BUT I NEED HELP!!! I cannot have a dog that completely ignores me when I am trying to call her, I take her camping and to bike races etc (all places she needs to be able to be off leash and come back reliably) 
She does chase small animals but I dont have an issue with that, she never catches them and always comes back once she gives up. 

I just need to know what to do to get her to listen when I call her. She is so great at it when we are home, but when we go somewhere else new and free, all my training goes down the drain............ please help, thanks for reading this long story.


PS: She is still only 1, is there an age that I should just keep her on a leash until she reaches?? Or should she be able to get it at so young?
Also she has been dubbed a whippet x catahoula. Are these breeds known for not being good off leash?


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## Lillith

I am so happy with how Ralphie's recall is coming along. This morning we were walking along the diversion (a canal type thing that's supposed to divert water from the nearby river so it doesn't flood. It's full of water, long grass, and is generally the closest I can get to a "wilderness" that the dog loves) and a rabbit pops up and runs. I yelled "come" knowing that he probably wouldn't come, but it was the first thing that popped out of my mouth. I cursed myself because I know I"m not supposed to set him up to fail, but I don't like it when he hits the end of his line hard. To my surprise and delight, he turned around and ran back to me for hot dogs! He has been responding excellently to my recall over the last week or so, breaking attention from birds, people, and dogs. He will hopefully have good enough recall to start Beginning Agility in July. He finally seems to be thinking, "What Lillith wants is what I want, too!"


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## Aussie27

DogctorWho15, do you have a long line that you could put her on? That would give her enough length to explore a bit and also gives you some piece of mind. Plus you could still practice recalls while she's on the long line.


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## sydneynicole

I'll second the long ling, DogtorWho15. I use mine with Oliver sometimes, I got a lightweight biothane one and he just drags it behind him, but if he were to take off it would give me the extra 30 feet I would need to catch up to him, I can just step on the end of it instead of trying to grab him. Also, having to call her multiple times for her to listen signals she isn't ready to be off leash. You never want to call more than once, and you don't want to call when you don't think they will come. Just letting her off leash before she is ready will do more harm than good for her training. I know it's frustrating, but if you really put in the time now it will be worth it.

One is still very young IMO, she still has mushy puppy brains. Some dogs get it right away, but some don't. You might want to try to keep her engaged throughout the walk - reward her for checking in with you (click/treat any time she gives eye contact), call her back to you for a quick sit - down - stay or do some quick heeling then release her back to sniffing, etc. Lots of treats. Teach her that staying around and being near you is rewarding.
Whippets are sight hounds and it is never recommended to let a sight hound off leash, especially in an area where they might end up on the road or getting into some sort of trouble. Since she's a mix there's no way to tell really - only you can decide if she's reliable enough to be trusted off leash. But I wouldn't throw in the towel on that until she's 2-3 years old.


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## CptJack

Kylie's play skills, man. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW-lk3gC5FI

Given where we started - HECK YEAH.


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## sydneynicole

So happy with Oliver today. We went to a mountain we hadn't been to before for a hike. I've been working a ton on his leash reactivity, basically just limiting his experiences/exposure to other dogs and keeping him below threshold, comforting him, etc. I've gotten to the point that I just pick him up when I see another dog. He's tricky because it starts out as leash frustration, wanting to see the other dog, but if the other dog actually runs up to him it quickly turns into fear reactivity. 

Anyways, we walked by several dogs with only slight pulling on the leash, no growling/snarling and lunging. Since he was doing well I allowed him to sniff with another dog that was clearly very friendly (but still kept Oli on a short leash just in case). He did great! The next time we saw a dog he looked up at me like he was asking whether or not he could greet it or if we should keep walking. I allowed him to sniff again. 

At that point he started to get a little over threshold the next time we saw a dog, either because I had let him meet the last two or because I made him pose for pictures for 10-15 minutes so he got annoyed/riled up. But I'm still very pleased with the progress, especially since I haven't been devoting as much time as I should to his reactivity.


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## CrimsonAccent

daydreaming said:


> I hope it's okay to ask this here!
> 
> I live in a pretty rural town. In my search for trainers, I've only found 2.
> One believe in Ceaser Millian, so nixed.
> The other only has a FB page for their "website", and I can't explain but my vibe just isn't good.
> So my last options are PetCo or PetSmart training. I was thinking about doing the 6 week (I think?) puppy coarse for $119.
> Has anyone used it with success or failure?
> My puppy knows a few things, but doesn't listen when she is excited (sit, shake, off). Does not know how to walk on leash, stay, or really even her name yet. She is 11 weeks, and I've had her a week now. I am told the class usually has up to 5 others, so I would like the socialization part, too.


I realize this reply is really late, but YMMV on PetCo or Petsmart training. It really depends on the individual store and trainer. Is there any way for you to just scope out a class and see how it's run?


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## Lillith

So one of the main behavioral things I've been working on with Ralphie is his tendency to bark at people/other dogs/things in general on walks or in the back yard. I'm happy to say that the barking on walks is almost completely gone. He will bark if he sees something he thinks is scary (like kids with squirt guns) but he generally handles distractions very calmly now. He no longer barks at most people, although he still tries to pull over to them to say hi. Most things he looks at for a while, and when he is satisfied he will look at me for treats and praise. He's come a long way from out first walks where he barked at EVERYTHING. 

He still barks at people who cross behind our yard, which is fine, but I need him to call off quickly. He's getting better. One or two barks, a quick recall, and he's done and then I continue to treat him as the people walk by. Sometimes he just continues to bark and won't stop, so outside time is over and he has to calm down inside for a while. So far so good, though!


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## Sficciolo

I'm so happy with where Jago is at this point. I mean, for a seven-month old who's been with us for 5 weeks, I feel lucky. 

Yesterday we went to a new off-leash park. We entered an area where there were a beautiful 1yo Alsatian Wolfdog and a 7yo Great Pyrenees mutt. I was worried but Jago got into a sitting position before greeting the dog, he understood the 7yo had no interest in play, and started playing very well with the Alsatian. I thought this had blown all possibilities of a training session. However, after playing a bit I called him, he came and kept sticking around for almost an hour of training (during which he is often 'set free' to do sniffing and dog stuff, so in total more like a 35 mins). He willingly moved to another batch of grass, and we practiced some recall (100% success! yay!), sit, stay, stand and heel. He also heeled for a long time, without any treat, only with praise when eye contact. He heels nicely and sits when I stop. He never once went back to the other dogs during the training session, although they were very curious at the beginning and were jumping around us.

At this point, we need to focus more on 'stay' and getting some kind of structure when we're on a busy pavement on the way to and from the park. His stay is good at home, and it was improving outside, but yesterday was a bit of a stay setback. On the pavement he heels when I ask him too, but when there are many people, it is just impossible.

But overall, I think he's doing great! He seems to love training, when we heel with eye contact I just feel he's having a great time. I can't believe he was sitting in a shelter, abandoned. I'm so grateful he's in my life now, and training him has become my favorite thing in the world!


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## Lillith

Sficciolo said:


> I'm so happy with where Jago is at this point. I mean, for a seven-month old who's been with us for 5 weeks, I feel lucky.
> 
> Yesterday we went to a new off-leash park. We entered an area where there were a beautiful 1yo Alsatian Wolfdog and a 7yo Great Pyrenees mutt. I was worried but Jago got into a sitting position before greeting the dog, he understood the 7yo had no interest in play, and started playing very well with the Alsatian. I thought this had blown all possibilities of a training session. However, after playing a bit I called him, he came and kept sticking around for almost an hour of training (during which he is often 'set free' to do sniffing and dog stuff, so in total more like a 35 mins). He willingly moved to another batch of grass, and we practiced some recall (100% success! yay!), sit, stay, stand and heel. He also heeled for a long time, without any treat, only with praise when eye contact. He heels nicely and sits when I stop. He never once went back to the other dogs during the training session, although they were very curious at the beginning and were jumping around us.
> 
> At this point, we need to focus more on 'stay' and getting some kind of structure when we're on a busy pavement on the way to and from the park. His stay is good at home, and it was improving outside, but yesterday was a bit of a stay setback. On the pavement he heels when I ask him too, but when there are many people, it is just impossible.
> 
> But overall, I think he's doing great! He seems to love training, when we heel with eye contact I just feel he's having a great time. I can't believe he was sitting in a shelter, abandoned. I'm so grateful he's in my life now, and training him has become my favorite thing in the world!


A fist full of lunch meat usually fixes the "OMG PEOPLE I MUST SEE" problem when out and about. That seems to be more tantalizing. If I see someone coming I still move off to the side, but I hold the lunch meat in one hand and slowly feed it with the other as we pass with Ralphie in heel.


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## Aussie27

We started learning a few tricks today: weave, dance, and nose targeting.

So far for weave, I have her going through my legs without hesitation. She started out pretty hesitant so she is more comfortable with it now. It's definitely hard on the back to teach it to a small dog, which is partially why I moved onto teaching something else for a bit!

She caught onto dance pretty easily, although turning it into going in a circle might be a little more difficult.

The nose targeting went interestingly. I used a container lid like I did when I taught paw targeting, which is I think what caused the confusion for her. She would scratch at it, then touch it with her nose, then scratch again. So now she's associating the scratching action with the nose and so I think we'll have to work more on it because she doesn't seem to be catching on that I only want the nose targeting.


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## Sficciolo

That sounds good, thanks for the advice, I'll surely try it!


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## gingerkid

Well, I was finally able to find a CGN prep class (well, 1-day workshop) that fits into our schedule and wasn't $300+. I'm a little bit nervous; I haven't signed up for the test yet. I feel like I have no context for where Snowball is in relation to the test criteria. I *think* he is ready, or close enough that we'll be able to work any kinks out before the test date. (There are two dates available atm - two or four weeks after the workshop).


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## gingerkid

Aussie27 said:


> The nose targeting went interestingly. I used a container lid like I did when I taught paw targeting, which is I think what caused the confusion for her. She would scratch at it, then touch it with her nose, then scratch again. So now she's associating the scratching action with the nose and so I think we'll have to work more on it because she doesn't seem to be catching on that I only want the nose targeting.


Does she target your hand?

I got Snowball's nose target by drawing a big dot on a post-it and holding that in my hand, and then asking for a hand-target. I'd move my hand closer and closer to whatever I wanted him to target (when we did this I was working on pushing a cupboard door closed with his nose), then held my hand right against the thing a few times and then just stuck the post-it to the cupboard door. He got the idea within a few minutes.


----------



## Prozax

Recall training win today! I took Eli with me to the office and let her loose on the terrace but I didn't notice someone left the door to the kitchen open. Of course she went straight for it. I was already dreading the image of her jumping on the table and stealing food. I did give it a try and called her over to me. And what do you know, my food obsessed dog turned right around from the kitchen and trotted happily back to me!!! 

Unrelated, I had to pull a huge cookie out of her mouth this morning because she found it on the ground and tried to scarf it down at lightning speed. Who throws away a full cookie. Anyway, we clearly have some work there, but yey, my dog came back to me when I absolutely needed her to!!

We started muzzle training, as management while we work on the whole eating everything off the ground issue, and it's going well. She still needs to get used to it outside , but she has peed while wearing it. Also, it's funny how she jams her face into it every time it's out  Smart girlie!!


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## DogtorWho15

Thanks for the replies on Novas recall!! 

I have a 20ft leash that I can use, but the thing is she knows when she is on a leash, and when she is on a leash she behaves and won't stray far at all. She never uses the full length of the leash but more like half of it XD I've been working on her "go play" cue though to help get her out there a little bit. But now I know she is clearly not ready to be off leash. I am gonna keep her on it until she is 2 and just work on recall the other ways until then. And like you said sighthounds aren't good off leash, but it is entirely possible, so we are just gonna work really hard.

Also I went to go teach her crawl and she just stretched out as far as possible from the down position XD she wouldn't crawl.
So then we tried roll over later and that was a mess........... 

So then I went to do the leg weave only to find out she is too tall to go through my legs :joy:


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## gingerkid

DogtorWho15 said:


> Also I went to go teach her crawl and she just stretched out as far as possible from the down position XD she wouldn't crawl.


New trick, name it "Stretch".


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## gingerkid

I am really struggling right now. For the entire duration of our reactivity class, Ida was flat out refusing fresh cooked lamb heart, hot dogs, and soft smelly cloud star treats out of my treat pouch. She happily stuck her nose in the lamb heart container at every opportunity, but she would not, for any reason, take treats from me or even look at me. She did not seem to even register any clicks, or "yes!" or her name or any other noises that I attempted to make. She had no issues taking the same treats from the trainers or accepting pets from random strangers.

Although the class was more difficult yesterday - mainly that the dogs were moving faster, she was completely ignoring me right from the start, before we even got into the room, before any of the dogs were even moving around. While she only reacted a couple of times, I am mostly really disturbed by how intently oblivious to me she was, and by the way she was hard-staring the other dogs. This morning I e-mailed our trainer with my concerns, and we'll see what she says when we go to our last agility class this evening. It was just... so disheartening and frustrating and made me feel completely powerless to do anything to help Ida with her reactivity.


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## Lillith

gingerkid said:


> I am really struggling right now. For the entire duration of our reactivity class, Ida was flat out refusing fresh cooked lamb heart, hot dogs, and soft smelly cloud star treats out of my treat pouch. She happily stuck her nose in the lamb heart container at every opportunity, but she would not, for any reason, take treats from me or even look at me. She did not seem to even register any clicks, or "yes!" or her name or any other noises that I attempted to make. She had no issues taking the same treats from the trainers or accepting pets from random strangers.
> 
> Although the class was more difficult yesterday - mainly that the dogs were moving faster, she was completely ignoring me right from the start, before we even got into the room, before any of the dogs were even moving around. While she only reacted a couple of times, I am mostly really disturbed by how intently oblivious to me she was, and by the way she was hard-staring the other dogs. This morning I e-mailed our trainer with my concerns, and we'll see what she says when we go to our last agility class this evening. It was just... so disheartening and frustrating and made me feel completely powerless to do anything to help Ida with her reactivity.


I'm sorry that happened! She was probably just having a bad day, or something ticked her off earlier. Ralphie barks loudly and scarily at people (he's not being aggressive, his alert bark just sounds scary) and will sometimes run at them. For the last couple of months that behavior has almost completely disappeared, but there are some days when everything seems to set him off and he is just a mess. Won't listen, ignores me, is just a brat. It's horribly frustrating when you are so proud of how far they've come and then they disappoint you. Granted, Ralphie is 11 months old and doesn't have severe reactivity issues, but I know how it feels! Just chalk it up to a bad day and move on tomorrow!


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> I am really struggling right now. For the entire duration of our reactivity class, Ida was flat out refusing fresh cooked lamb heart, hot dogs, and soft smelly cloud star treats out of my treat pouch. She happily stuck her nose in the lamb heart container at every opportunity, but she would not, for any reason, take treats from me or even look at me. She did not seem to even register any clicks, or "yes!" or her name or any other noises that I attempted to make. She had no issues taking the same treats from the trainers or accepting pets from random strangers.
> 
> Although the class was more difficult yesterday - mainly that the dogs were moving faster, she was completely ignoring me right from the start, before we even got into the room, before any of the dogs were even moving around. While she only reacted a couple of times, I am mostly really disturbed by how intently oblivious to me she was, and by the way she was hard-staring the other dogs. This morning I e-mailed our trainer with my concerns, and we'll see what she says when we go to our last agility class this evening. It was just... so disheartening and frustrating and made me feel completely powerless to do anything to help Ida with her reactivity.


I'm sorry :-( That really sucks. Do you think she's over threshold? Not taking treats or responding at all typically = over threshold. 

What if you work behind a screen so she can't see the other dogs?


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## CptJack

The fact that she's willing to take treats from the trainer and not you makes me kind of wonder if she's less over-threshold as we typically know it and more hyper-focused on the other dogs and the strangers/trainers sort of shake her out of it a little. Would explain the hard staring, too. 

I'm sure your trainer will have the best short of giving you advice, but it's not something I'm entirely familiar with and all I can really say is that one thing that helped me in similar scenarios was teaching a 'I poke you, you turn and look' type 'command'. It's the same kind of thing I use with Bug. Tap the dog on the shoulder and when they turn feed. Takes forever to get there, but that kind of obsessive focus is a BEAR when the obsessive focus isn't on you. 

I'm sympathetic and feel terrible for you either way. Keep us updated on what kind of feedback you get from the trainer?


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> I'm sorry :-( That really sucks. Do you think she's over threshold? Not taking treats or responding at all typically = over threshold.
> 
> What if you work behind a screen so she can't see the other dogs?


I think threshold is part of it - we started closer to other dogs than we usually do - but she was also totally not listening and ignoring treats before we got into the building, before she saw any other dogs. Plus, this was class 5 of six; in the four previous classes she was relaxed, happy, focused, even when dogs were much closer (albeit moving slower) than we experienced this class. She was also the same this morning while we were attempting to do focus exercises on the front step - hyper focused on anything and everything except me.



CptJack said:


> The fact that she's willing to take treats from the trainer and not you makes me kind of wonder if she's less over-threshold as we typically know it and more hyper-focused on the other dogs and the strangers/trainers sort of shake her out of it a little. Would explain the hard staring, too.
> 
> I'm sure your trainer will have the best short of giving you advice, but it's not something I'm entirely familiar with and all I can really say is that one thing that helped me in similar scenarios was teaching a 'I poke you, you turn and look' type 'command'. It's the same kind of thing I use with Bug. Tap the dog on the shoulder and when they turn feed. Takes forever to get there, but that kind of obsessive focus is a BEAR when the obsessive focus isn't on you.
> 
> I'm sympathetic and feel terrible for you either way. Keep us updated on what kind of feedback you get from the trainer?


Thanks. We'll see what she says, although the homework e-mail seemed to be worded in such a way that she felt like it was just because we weren't doing homework (and I'm trying very, very hard to remind myself that the e-mail went out to everyone in class and that it wasn't aimed specifically at me... But.)

I'm also struggling with what to do for reinforcement. Ida wants nothing to do with the treats I bring to class. One of the trainers was giving her treats from her treat pouch; tripe jerky that I have used before which Ida generally liked but has previously refused from me in a class setting. I feel like there is a puzzle piece missing; I just hope our trainer is up to figuring it out, as she's only been training professionally for a few months.


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## elrohwen

Your description feels like stress to me, and over threshold. Not that she was necessarily too close to the dogs at the moment or whever, but that the class environment was stressful and just pulling in to the parking lot made her act weird. Could be a trigger stacking thing that's not related to any one event which is why she's still wigged out the day after. Could be that she just suddenly got overwhelmed with the idea of class.

I also don't think it's weird that she was refusing treats from you but taking them from the instructor. Watson will be distracted and refuse to work for me and be stressed out but still work for the instructor - who knows why. I think sometimes our presence and attempts to train are part of their stress and a new person doesn't have that same baggage.

I think I would wait her out. If she's not barking or lunging or acting out, I would just wait and let her look at everything as long as she wants. When she turns back, praise and pet her if she won't take a treat and then encourage her to look back out at the world. Does she look back at you and reconnect at all? But then refuse treats? Or what is the scenario that she's refusing treats?

ETA: I don't think switching reinforcement or going to better reinforcement is going to help. I don't think that's your core problem here. Just speaking from my own experience with Watson, who reminds me of Ida in some ways.


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## gingerkid

It could be stress. But I can't come up with any reason why she would be SO stressed out as to not take treats - not even sniff them - when going to a facility that she's been going to once or twice a week since she was 12 weeks old. She's never shown stress when going, other than the anxiety she sometimes exhibits in the car (which appears to be alleviated by her Thunder Shirt). Maybe she was just having an "off" day, but damnit she's never had an "off" day this bad, she's never flat out refused to even sniff treats.



elrohwen said:


> I think I would wait her out. If she's not barking or lunging or acting out, I would just wait and let her look at everything as long as she wants. When she turns back, praise and pet her if she won't take a treat and then encourage her to look back out at the world. Does she look back at you and reconnect at all? But then refuse treats? Or what is the scenario that she's refusing treats?


She wasn't looking at me at all, she wasn't looking at the treats, she wasn't even smelling and then not taking them (her usually MO for "refusing" treats that aren't high enough value is to take them then spit them out and keep working), she wasn't smelling the treats while looking at the thing, she didn't look at me even when I touched her. For all it mattered, I and anything I was touching might as well been made of, I dunno, air. She wouldn't stop staring at whatever she happened to be staring at even if I broke the line of vision with my body or made her move/turn around, she just went right back to staring at it as soon as she had line of sight again. 

At home, around things that aren't other dogs I will definitely try waiting her out. I am very, very hesitant to wait her out when the object of her attention is another dog, especially in a reactive dog class, because of the risk of her triggering the other dogs to react (which will in turn trigger her to bark/lunge). Sure, it's the other owners responsibility to counter condition their own dog and ensure it's under threshold, but I feel like allowing Ida to stare at them (thereby causing them to react and in turn causing her to react to their reaction) is setting Ida up for failure.


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> She wasn't looking at me at all, she wasn't looking at the treats, she wasn't even smelling and then not taking them (her usually MO for "refusing" treats that aren't high enough value is to take them then spit them out and keep working), she wasn't smelling the treats while looking at the thing, she didn't look at me even when I touched her. For all it mattered, I and anything I was touching might as well been made of, I dunno, air. She wouldn't stop staring at whatever she happened to be staring at even if I broke the line of vision with my body or made her move/turn around, she just went right back to staring at it as soon as she had line of sight again.
> 
> At home, around things that aren't other dogs I will definitely try waiting her out. I am very, very hesitant to wait her out when the object of her attention is another dog, especially in a reactive dog class, because of the risk of her triggering the other dogs to react (which will in turn trigger her to bark/lunge). Sure, it's the other owners responsibility to counter condition their own dog and ensure it's under threshold, but I feel like allowing Ida to stare at them (thereby causing them to react and in turn causing her to react to their reaction) is setting Ida up for failure.


Yeah, good point about not letting her stare at the reactive dog class. Not good to trigger other dogs. In that case I would break her line of sight and put up a screen or something and then see if she will offer any attention on her own.

At home or in the parking lot or far away from other dogs (to where they won't care) I would wait her out.

But yeah, I don't think it's your quality of treats that's an issue. I think she has her own stuff she needs to work through at her own pace.


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## CptJack

That kind of fixated staring is not unique to herding breeds but is relatively common. You might try browsing around a bc forum or two. I know there have been posts about that sort of thing in the past and you might find some useful info.


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## gingerkid

Good idea.

Also... this obsessive, hyperfocused... thing is exactly why I said I didn't want a border collie. So....I guess that worked out well for me.


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## elrohwen

gingerkid said:


> Good idea.
> 
> Also... this obsessive, hyperfocused... thing is exactly why I said I didn't want a border collie. So....I guess that worked out well for me.


I know that Susan Garrett uses a Gentle Leader and physically moves the dog's head away from what they're staring at and back to her. Then she rewards and can lead them further away where they can cope without staring.


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## gingerkid

elrohwen said:


> I know that Susan Garrett uses a Gentle Leader and physically moves the dog's head away from what they're staring at and back to her. Then she rewards and can lead them further away where they can cope without staring.


Worth a try I suppose... although breaking line of sight didn't phase her; she immediately sought out whatever she was looking at the instant she had line of sight again (unless she saw a new person, and then she focused on them instead).


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## gingerkid

Just an update after our agility lesson. Trainer felt that it was a perfect storm of a bad day, increasing criteria too fast (Ida's biggest trigger is fast-moving dogs, and that's what we worked yesterday), and ???? that resulted in being unable to get Ida's arousal levels down to a working level. Re: the staring this morning, she pointed out that Ida could've been watching things that I couldn't see (there is a stand of trees across the street in front of our house that sometimes has squirrels or other critters, and Ida loooves watching squirrels). She and I were also both pretty surprised when I offered Ida some lamb heart today, in a relatively low-distraction, medium-stress situation (it was absolutely pouring buckets which was making noise on the roof) and Ida totally ignored it.

The plan right now is for us to work the counter conditioning on our own from extra far away, and depending on how that goes, we'll be working in class at a much greater distance than the rest of the class. She did agree that, especially because Ida has some herding tendencies (and the relationship between operant and classical conditioning) and is a bit stare-y already, there may be a very fine line between counter conditioning/desensitization and reinforcing a stare. For that reason she recommended that, although the past 5 classes have emphasised rewarding for engaging with the environment, Ida and I work on rewarding for disengaging with the environment (something I was already considering prior to the disaster that was yesterday's class), compared to how they've spent every class focusing on getting us to reward our dogs for engaging with the environment.

tl;dr - she thinks it was a combination of pretty much everything that everyone here mentioned. So... yay.

On the plus side, our agility lesson went great, Ida's decided (again) that the dog walk is awesome and was even running to the end of the teeter (she's not dropping it herself yet though). Instructor was impressed with how well she took the directions I was giving (whether they were intentional directions or not, lol) and said her pick-ups are coming along nicely, so that was nice.


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## CptJack

...You know, thinking about it, I had to drop LAT with Molly because it caused obsessive staring at the environment looking or dogs. Normal dogs would get 'oh hey, there's a dog and I look back and am praised and rewarded for looking back'. her take away was 'The objective is clearly to find and look at other dogs really a lot'. Well, that or she figured out I didn't want the reaction and was still too afraid to take her eyes off them - or both. Sounds like things are mostly going okay and you have a plan, so that's *GOOD*.

---

I really need to get off my butt and train my dogs. I'm doing basically nothing right now. Kylie's doing some work on cleaning up her switches/flip-turns/tandem turns/whatever, because in spite of really nice video evidence of her knowing how to do them sometimes she just *doesn't* which is kind of obnoxious. Otherwise? Um. Yeah, nothing. I couldn't tell you the last time I did a training session with anyone else about anything else. Kylie's back to weekly private lessons and Molly's got a few 'play dates' (no play just on leash being in the area) coming up. 

But I really, really need to motivate myself to get back to it. Agility, obedience, stupid tricks, just SOMETHING.


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## TGKvr

I'm with you there, CptJack. I have really slacked off with training lately and it shows. I mean she's still great, and will still do anything I ask her but we're missing those daily focused sessions. At night she even asks for it and instead I just throw the ball and play tug. LOL. Laazy mama.


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## Kyllobernese

Maybe it is just the time of year. We trained all winter, two times a week in the arena (unless the weather was really cold). We started training outside at my sister's during the week but we have had a long session of rainy weather and had to miss out a lot of days and training at the arena because of other things coming up has been hit or miss. Really need to get back on schedule again although it probably has not hurt the dogs to have a break. It probably does not help that I have to go in for a bypass on my left leg on the 5th of July so I know I will have to be off for a while then but then should be ready to go for the late summer and fall trials.


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## gingerkid

CptJack said:


> But I really, really need to motivate myself to get back to it. Agility, obedience, stupid tricks, just SOMETHING.


This is why I've started doing so many classes. I paid good money for them, so I'm compelled to not waste it. I definitely need someone/something to keep me accountable.


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## Flaming

eh....I need to clean up general obedience around town with both dogs. They stayed with my in-laws all month during the evac and got spoiled like crazy all month.


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## CptJack

gingerkid said:


> This is why I've started doing so many classes. I paid good money for them, so I'm compelled to not waste it. I definitely need someone/something to keep me accountable.


Yeah, my lessons are saving me right now, at least in as much as they keep giving me a little bit of homework. I think some of my issue right now is how much of my homework *doesn't* involve the dog. I probably just need to switch gears and focus on Molly and her issues for a while, or see if I can dig up some kind of class for somebody. I need GOALS.


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## gingerkid

Since it was one of the goals that I posted earlier in this thread... this weekend Snowball passed his CGN test. I still kind of can't believe it. Considering attempting a CD (or whatever the CKC version is) with him, or maybe Rally, but there are apparently slim pickings for R+ competitive obedience classes around here so we'll see.


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## TGKvr

Well it has been quite some time since we've attended any classes... Initially, I wanted to pursue a CGC title then life got in the way. I think it's time to re-focus on her training, and to get back in the groove and go for that CGC after all. So we are signed up for classes starting next week! It will be good to get back into a more formal training program again. My girl's foundation skills are super solid, but her response times have been a little slower lately and I think she just needs a little boost, as do I. I lost sight of my goals for her for a while, but ready to get back on track and get her working again.


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## elrohwen

TGKvr said:


> Well it has been quite some time since we've attended any classes... Initially, I wanted to pursue a CGC title then life got in the way. I think it's time to re-focus on her training, and to get back in the groove and go for that CGC after all. So we are signed up for classes starting next week! It will be good to get back into a more formal training program again. My girl's foundation skills are super solid, but her response times have been a little slower lately and I think she just needs a little boost, as do I. I lost sight of my goals for her for a while, but ready to get back on track and get her working again.


I forgot about this thread! Thanks for reviving it!

That's great that you signed up for a class! I'm in a similar position and it feels good to get back to working towards goals.


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## Prozax

Our goal is to attend at least one conformation show next year and not embarrass ourselves. I am taking a conformation class in FDSA at bronze level, since it's our first one and I wanted to see how it goes. We're working every 2-3 days and she seems to be doing fine. Hopefully we'll see some results when we'll attend a show. I'm not interested in results, but the training part of it


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## LennyandRogue

My goal is to get Rogue over his thing with other dogs so we can actually do PA training. 

I did meet w/ another trainer and the advice I got was to mark him noticing a trigger instead of asking for eye contact + marking/rewarding eye contact and to keep him under threshold 100% of the time which might work if I lived in a suburb and could easily avoid all of his triggers. She also didn't see what he's like when he's reacting to a dog - he didn't react to her dog. But he reacts to dogs around my house. And squirrels. And now some people. And there's a lot of all of those things (and also people feed the squirrels so they're crazy aggressive and unafraid of dogs/humans/cars). 

The only other advice I got was to try a head collar. Which I'll try. 

But honestly I think plan B is take him to a place where the dogs aren't going to go away when he tantrums (like outside of a dog park, a class, etc) and let him have his episode then mark + reward when he stops.


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## craftyfaith

My main goal is still polite leash walking. I'd like Milo to walk in a loose heel position to my side. He has made huge improvements but he gets frustrated if he sees too many exciting things. If we're on grass (which he loves to run on) and then a dog goes by and makes a playbow at him he loses his 80lb puppy mind and starts zooming around on leash and trying to play tug. I'm trying a three pronged approach right now. 
1. Find less distracting places to work on walking and work to better define what walking looks like to him. I used a fenced tennis court yesterday which worked well. 
2. Work on him being able to amp up and then calm down rapidly. Along with this I need to figure out fun playful things we can do on our walks so he has something to do with all his frustrated play energy. 
3. Decrease his excitement with new things/people/dogs by working on settle in public. I've basically been taking him to a coffee shop with outdoor seating and had him do a calm settle for 10-15 minutes. I taught the settle at home first and am now generalizing it to out of the home.


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## TGKvr

We had our first class in a very long time last night. She was a model student! Her heeling was beautiful, but she definitely still needs to work on sitting politely while being approached for an exam. She just gets SO excited when people come to her, it is a very very difficult thing to train. Silly, goofy, exuberant dog that she is. Aside from that, she did great - first time she has worked in a ring with rally signs and she acted like she has done it all her life. She managed to keep her attention focused on me MOST of the time, even when the other dogs would walk by close to her, so that was pretty good too. First classes are always sort of a wash anyway, so I hope to really start working on more advanced skills as we progress.


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## TGKvr

Well we did a run-through of the CGC test last night. My dog was perfect in every way... except for the stranger greeting. UGH. This is just SO HARD for her. She gets so excited and jumps and just won't sit still to be approached. By the end of the class, she was doing it fairly well and even allowing me to walk to the end of the leash while someone else approached her to touch her head. If I kept my hand cue in place, she was OK and stayed fairly still with her eyes focused on me. But I'm pretty sure during the actual test we won't get multiple chances for her to get it right, and I'm also fairly certain I wouldn't be allowed to hold a hand cue during the greeting. It's very frustrating. If the person approaching her is COMPLETELY new, she just loses her mind. I guess I need to take her somewhere and just sit there and ask people to approach her for an hour or so? It's the ONLY thing she doesn't get on the first attempt. I mean I guess it could be worse - I could have a dog that hates people. But I'm just a little discouraged that we're going to be able to get her CGC with her current levels of loving exuberance. Sigh.


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## Lillith

TGKvr said:


> Well we did a run-through of the CGC test last night. My dog was perfect in every way... except for the stranger greeting. UGH. This is just SO HARD for her. She gets so excited and jumps and just won't sit still to be approached. By the end of the class, she was doing it fairly well and even allowing me to walk to the end of the leash while someone else approached her to touch her head. If I kept my hand cue in place, she was OK and stayed fairly still with her eyes focused on me. But I'm pretty sure during the actual test we won't get multiple chances for her to get it right, and I'm also fairly certain I wouldn't be allowed to hold a hand cue during the greeting. It's very frustrating. If the person approaching her is COMPLETELY new, she just loses her mind. I guess I need to take her somewhere and just sit there and ask people to approach her for an hour or so? It's the ONLY thing she doesn't get on the first attempt. I mean I guess it could be worse - I could have a dog that hates people. But I'm just a little discouraged that we're going to be able to get her CGC with her current levels of loving exuberance. Sigh.


My dog does that, too. Perfect at everything else (excluding being left with a stranger because he is a baby, lol) except the greetings! He wants to jump up on them. Especially if he's never met them before, then its ultra exciting.


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## trainingjunkie

Perhaps this won't make sense, but instead of looking at the "greet a stranger" as a greeting exercise, try training is as a heavily proofed sit/stay. Does that make sense? See if you can teach your dog to hold a sit/stay no matter what. Then have the greeting mostly be a "distraction challenge" rather than a social event. Might make things easier for the CGC.


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## TGKvr

Yeah that makes total sense, and kind of what I was trying to do by holding a hand cue while she was sitting and being approached. I suppose I'll just work on that, then phase out the hand cue? Oddly, she's actually better at being left with a stranger than the greeting part. She will sit there nicely with someone while I walk away. After trying to jump on the stranger holding her leash of course. LOL! She's so smart that I feel like we'll get there, just maybe not at the pace I originally anticipated. Though it makes me realize I did the right thing by taking off a few sessions before taking the CGC prep class. She just needs to mature a little now.


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## ireth0

You are allowed to be cueing your dog during the test, no need to phase it out.


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## TGKvr

Ahh... that's good to know! After I read that, I did some googling and found the evaluator's guide to the test which I actually found much more helpful than the student's guide. It lets me know what kind of flexibility is normal for each test item. I'm just going to have to really work with her very hard on some of these things. We go out in public a lot - Cabela's, Tractor Supply, Home Depot, that sort of thing. But we rarely encounter other dogs in those places so I think we need to go to pet stores too. She is great at ignoring people and dogs on trails when we're hiking, but in actual public places it's a little harder. And definitely more difficult to keep a loose leash while out and about. Eh, I guess we'll get there. Or not.


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## gingerkid

TGKvr said:


> Ahh... that's good to know! After I read that, I did some googling and found the evaluator's guide to the test which I actually found much more helpful than the student's guide. It lets me know what kind of flexibility is normal for each test item. I'm just going to have to really work with her very hard on some of these things. We go out in public a lot - Cabela's, Tractor Supply, Home Depot, that sort of thing. But we rarely encounter other dogs in those places so I think we need to go to pet stores too. She is great at ignoring people and dogs on trails when we're hiking, but in actual public places it's a little harder. And definitely more difficult to keep a loose leash while out and about. Eh, I guess we'll get there. Or not.


Our evaluator was pretty relaxed about the LLW; she just wanted the dog to respond to verbal redirection (e.g., "This way!") and for the dog to not strain against the leash at all. But walking to the end of the leash to sniff something was okay, as long as the dog could be redirected/refocused easily.


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## LennyandRogue

My monster is doing significantly better about other dogs...he still might freak out if the other dog is actively inviting him to play, but other working dogs are off limits (he actually didn't see them when he was on duty, but there was another service dog and a police dog on our route and he was interested for 20 seconds and then relaxed.)

He's also better in pet stores than he is in the park so there's that. He might give me a whine if the other dog comes up to sniff and doesn't, but no meltdown. 

I'm thinking he'll get better with maturity but speaking of immaturity:

Leaves are suddenly very interesting again! Oh my gosh! He keeps wanting to pounce on them. Squirrels are exciting enough that if they run backwards high over his head he'll look back so far he tips over. Wow. I've just been kind of planting myself when this happens but wow. He's mostly pretty good in therapy but the last two sessions he just kind of short-circuited and either really really really wanted to be petted RIGHT NOW or was really distracted by my therapist's shadow. On the way home he saw a statue of a bunny and was scared of it. He's also being a little weird and squirrely about people petting him (kind of walks up and asks to be petted then walks away very quickly when they actually try to pet him).

I'm not actually worried about this, just...wow. Happy birthday + second fear period.


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## TGKvr

Well we graduated our class last night, so only one more class to go before the CGC test. I'm a little unsure as to whether or not I will still pursue it - it's hard to give up on a goal I've had since she was a puppy but I have serious doubts as to whether she is cut out for it, honestly. I just don't think she will pass the stranger greetings and the strange dog greeting portion, but who knows - I don't have to decide right now as the school is closed for the holidays and next session doesn't start until second week in January. I didn't think our instructors this time around were that focused... I mean they are really sweet ladies but spent more time telling stories than teaching. It's all a little ladida. So it depends on the instructors as to whether or not I'll take the CGC class & test.

Warning: rant to follow.

So anyway, I was already a little stressed heading into the last class last night because my cousin came to visit on Friday and brought his dog with him (without asking, by the way). He arrived at the house maybe 5 minutes before I got home from work, and DH says that he walked out to greet him, let our dog out, and my cousin came around the corner and was like "Oh, yeah, my dog is here" and the dog (ESS) came charging around the corner of the deck while my dog was charging around the corner of the deck from the opposite direction - they have never met before, and they met in the smallest, most confining space possible. There were snarls, then they ran out to the yard which is when I pulled up, which didn't lessen any chaos. So I think the initial greeting between dogs was just such a disaster and my dog didn't take a liking to his dog. I then had to listen to him lecture me about training, and how I shouldn't let her get away with that and yada yada. 

He said he didn't understand why I *LET* her choose who she does and doesn't like, and felt that I should have put her on her back and let his dog approach her while she was in a submissive position. I told him that wasn't in line with my training philosophy and he just hammered me about it. I was pretty frustrated, but ultimately told him it was MY house, MY dog, and to please respect that my methods are different than his. I suggested we take the dogs outside in the yard and walk them around (my go-to method for greetings, which usually works just fine). He didn't have a collar or a leash for his dog because he had neck surgery recently. Sigh. So for the last four days we had to manage the situation, and my dog spent a lot of time upstairs blocked off from the rest of the house. But here's the thing... my dog was very obedient and didn't try attacking his dog or anything like that - she was interested, and I could tell sometimes she wanted to lunge at him when he would snarl at her, but mostly she listened really well to me. When we were in the same room together in the house, my dog stayed on her bed as directed, didn't engage, and I'd leash her to walk her by the other dog if we had to go out, and she didn't pay him any attention. We even had them both on the couch (opposite ends) at times. When she started drifting into his space, I gently corrected her and she changed direction. Other than loving that dog, I'm not sure she could have behaved any better. On the other hand, when his dog found out I had treats in my pocket he lost his mind. While my dog was inside, I was out with him and asked him to sit & down so he could have a treat. My cousin said "Oh he doesn't do anything". Huh? So the same guy that just lectured me for two hours on how my training methods are stupid, and that thinks every dog should always love and get along with every other dog ALL THE TIME.... HAS NOT TRAINED HIS DOG. Couldn't even sit!

It was just so frustrating because I have spent SO MUCH time training her since she was a puppy, but I guess since she didn't love his dog that means nothing. He also doesn't believe genetics plays into it at all... that EVERY dog, no matter the breed, can be trained to get along with other dogs. I do think that training and socialization is about 80% of that, but I told him you simply can't eliminate genetics from the equation at all - she's a bull dog! She's going to be a bull dog sometimes! He thinks that's BS. SIGH. Sometimes I despair that she will be 100% reliable around other dogs, but then other times I really don't care that much - as long as she listens to me, and I can direct her focus, then that works for me. Obviously I'm not going to stop working on this, but I also think she has a right to dislike a dog every now and then. I just get really sick of people judging me for my training methods because I'm not old school anymore.


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## elrohwen

Honestly, I think that pretty much every stable dog with some training can pass the CGC. Sometimes you just have to let them grow up a bit first so they are out of their "must jump on everyone" stage. If you don't think the goal is attainable right now, set it on the shelf for a bit and come back in a year or two. Or just try the test and see - at least then you'll know where to focus, and she may surprise you.


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## Kathyy

Sassy was dog reactive and passed the CGC easily. A dog used for testing is going to be a really easy going good dog. She mirrored that good calm behavior and passed easily. Same with the tester. Will not be a normal dog lover that subconsciously cues a dog to jump but somebody that doesn't allow such silliness.


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## TGKvr

Hmm... well that's comforting. And maybe elrohwen is right and I should at least take the test anyway - it can't hurt, even if she doesn't pass the first time. She does much better with the greetings if I hold a hand cue for "stay" - she gets wiggly but keeps her feet down, at least in class - so there IS hope. I was just feeling down about it because of the last several days of stressing over my cousin's dog. Also, as soon as we got into the building for our class yesterday, I was taking my coat off (had dropped and stepped on the leash to do so) and a lady approached us while I was doing so - beelined for us, actually, with her dog... that barked and charged my dog, who barked and charged back. No harm was done - it actually looked like they just wanted to play (tails wagging). It was just a little chaos and I was kind of pissed that she couldn't wait 30 seconds for me to remove my coat and move to a different part of the room before bringing her dog so close.


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## Kathyy

Good grief. If that's the sort of situation you are worried about don't. Very few young dogs can be calm when they are getting charged by rude dogs and native handlers! I dream of such a dog, a peace maker that can defuse any situation..........

If she fails the test how soon can you retake it? This isn't pass or fail forever. Could consider it a pretest even.


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