# Want a Toy dog



## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

hello, I am new, and will be posting in the new section, but now that I am out of highschool and can only find a part time job, I thought it would be a good time to think about making my dream come true, getting a small dog. Now I am most of the time all about big animals, I show, train, and own 2 horses. I am not new persay to dog ownership as I have a chow/boarder collie/mutt mix, but he is getting older, and my family but mainly me has been looking into getting what we call a "lap" dog, if you will.

SO my question, which breed??? I have always liked a chihuahua, chuahua/min pin mix, min pin itself etc. BUT I do not want a dog with his ears or tail done, its as a pet, I do not think I'd want to show it, but I may, I like showing horses, and have thought about showing a dog, but that is not the main reason. Now my family is quite busy, I have everyother day off, I live on an acreage, my dog is used to toy dogs, and it'd be mainly me feeding and maintaining, he'd go on camping trips, and such aswell. Now I am open to ideas pros/cons about getting a dog, along with certain up keep that is known about the breed. ANy info is great. Thanks!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Bichon Frise is a hardy little dog, easy to train, friendly, but needs grooming.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

I'd like a short hair, as I already have one dog thats needs grooming. Is there anything bad about chihuahuas, or min pins that I should worry about?


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I don't know of any problems, just need to do a little extra socialization with them. Not sure how they are with hiking.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

there will be no hiking, camping would be at horse shows in an RV, going for walks with me in the saddle, I want a dog thats loves to be spoiled, while also not getting to nasty, and he'd be socialised becasue all my coaches and friends have small toy dogs but they need grooming, and I'm not into that with 2 dogs.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Min Pins are usually cropped and docked, but you might be able to find a breeder who would leave them on for you. I don't know if this is as big a deal in toy dogs, but with larger breeds I'm hesitant to ask because that becomes YOUR puppy at like day 3 even if it isn't the perfect match for you after the puppies have grown up a little bit. 



> I want a dog thats loves to be spoiled, while also not getting to nasty


There's spoiled and there's spoiled. The biggest thing is to remember that even though it's a toy dog, it's still a dog first and a toy second. There are some things that are less urgent with a small dog, but don't let the dog get away with rude, dangerous behavior that would be out of the question for a larger dog.

Here's a list of AKC toy breeds: http://www.akc.org/breeds/toy_group.cfm You can pretty much just eyeball the picture to see if they need grooming or not. There aren't many that don't, fancy intensive coats are one of the hallmarks of the group. Most of them can be clipped short as an alternative, but you do have to keep on top of that. A Miniature/Toy poodle might be a thought.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

I am not 100% on having a registered dog, as showing really is very low priority. I did some looking on our local ads, and it seems that money wise a chihuahua would be a better choice as even the crosses they seem to dock their tails. 

I have had bad experiences with poodles, all of them I have met are nasty. So I guess I may have decided on the actual breeds then, min pin, chi-pin, or chihuahua. Hmm..I have been doing some research myself and not heard anything bad from either breeds.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I would be very wary of newspaper ads. They are almost exclusively backyard breeders, which means they just grabbed two dogs that look the same and bred them together. That means that your dog may look like a Chihuahua or Min-Pin (or not, my dog is from a BYB and looks NOTHING like a Miniature Schnauzer) but the resemblance is only skin-deep, if that. Health is a gamble. Appearance is a gamble. Temperament is a gamble, and that area especially I'd be nervous about. I have met my share of nasty Chi's. Puppies are a huge gamble to begin with, going to a reputable breeder who health tests and proves their breeding stock in independent judged events (for toy dogs this is usually just conformation, but I like to see Obedience titles or at least a CGC as a testament to temprament) stacks the odds in your favor that you'll end up with a grown dog that you can live with, and not only that, enjoy. 

I'm not up on the health issues of toy breeds, but I know luxating patellas are a big one, and you aren't going to get around that by mixing breeds. I think hearts are something you have to watch out for as well. You can get more specific information at the breed club websites. They have a breeder referral, too.

http://www.chihuahuaclubofamerica.com/
http://www.minpin.org


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## indiana (May 27, 2010)

You could check out a local rescue. There are breed-specific rescues and you could get an adult dog that you know the temperament of already. If you are set on a puppy, a rescue would be a way to get one without supporting BYBs. If there is a breeder breeding crosses like that, they are a BYB.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> There's spoiled and there's spoiled. The biggest thing is to remember that even though it's a toy dog, it's still a dog first and a toy second. There are some things that are less urgent with a small dog, but don't let the dog get away with rude, dangerous behavior that would be out of the question for a larger dog.


This ↑↑↑

But the same thing applies to breeding. Many toy-size dogs with unacceptable temperaments will be bred because small dogs only create small problems, whereas the identical (genetically based) behavior characteristics would more likely cause a large breed dog to be taken out of the gene pool.

Yeah, poorly bred Dobermans (to pick just one example) are common enough, but the phenomenom is somewhat self-limiting in large breeds. GSDs (to pick another) have greatly diminished in poularity as they've gotten reputations as gnat-brained fear biters.

Get your toy dog from a top notch breeder who puts a high premium on stable temperament. Min Pins, Toy Manchester Terriers, and Toy Fox Terriers are fiesty little suckas that need to be treated as terriers more than toy breeds.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

thank you for all the replies. I did do some research and I found a family that breeds just there 2 dogs for 1 litter a year, pure bred min pin, and I am going to see how that goes. I am also planning on visiting a local rescue event this sunday and see, even if it is just to look and get an idea. I was also thinking manchester terrier aswell, but it seems all the ones I can find "in my price range" are BYB's most definatly with no 100% characteristics, no papers, and no info int he ad minus a pic and a phone number.


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## indiana (May 27, 2010)

Papers are good, but I would worry more about health testing. Ask any breeders what tests they run and make sure you know the tests that should be done for the breed you want.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

It's always a good idea to meet at least one of the pup's parents. Buying pups with pedigrees full of Ch, is a good thing, but if you're not so interested in showing, then pedigrees with performance titles is a better bet. Adult dogs from shelters are another good deal. You can see what the dog has grown into, and many small breed dog live to be quite old. A 4 year old Miniature Poodle still has a few good years left in him/her.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

thank you. My "mutt" larger breed dog I got when he was a couple months old, he is now 11 years old and I think I only have a year left with him unfortunatly and I'd really like a pup (if I get one) to have him as a mentor if you will. If I have the time we have a rescue association who is holding their last of the season rescues events which I'd like to look at. Small dogs around here with my wants are rare, we don't seem to have the same problems as other areas. I have come to the conclusion that I really want a min pin, I saw a couple recently and they were very inviting, inquistive, bright eyed, and seemed very loyal while also being friendly, and that matters to me. I also want a dog that would love to cuddle and also go chase gophers with me which sounds like min pins, manchesters, and the like seem to like to do. I may even try agility. I most definatly will be meeting up with these people, getting a vet check aswell. Being that I have spent big bucks on showing horses purchasing and buying, I do know some of the tricks to the trade


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> thank you. My "mutt" larger breed dog I got when he was a couple months old, he is now 11 years old and I think I only have a year left with him unfortunatly and I'd really like a pup (if I get one) to have him as a mentor if you will. If I have the time we have a rescue association who is holding their last of the season rescues events which I'd like to look at. Small dogs around here with my wants are rare, we don't seem to have the same problems as other areas. I have come to the conclusion that I really want a min pin, I saw a couple recently and they were very inviting, inquistive, bright eyed, and seemed very loyal while also being friendly, and that matters to me. I also want a dog that would love to cuddle and also go chase gophers with me which sounds like min pins, manchesters, and the like seem to like to do. I may even try agility. I most definatly will be meeting up with these people, getting a vet check aswell. Being that I have spent big bucks on showing horses purchasing and buying, I do know some of the tricks to the trade


Lots of people I know who do agility are also horse people; the two seem to go hand in hand. I've yet to compete in agility, but the trials I attend are very fun, fast paced and exciting and the people seem to have a lot of comeradery (like a smaller horse show). I chose papillons--which are pretty popular in the horse world as far as toy breeds go.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

A real horse trader  

I have noticed two unrelated things.
1. Puppies rejuvenate older dogs... not a rule, but a tendency. So, both may benefit... and the one years could stretch into five, if his arthritis (?) doesn't hold him back. If it is that "simple," Rimadyl does wonders.

2. Min Pins are not little dogs ... in their minds. I'm not sure what the pedigree originates from - it is not Dobie - but they sure act as if they were a big dog, fearless and tough. Not sure if they are a typical, cuddly, lapdog  Sounds fun to raise.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

hanksimon said:


> 2. Min Pins are not little dogs ... in their minds. I'm not sure what the pedigree originates from - it is not Dobie - but they sure act as if they were a big dog, fearless and tough. Not sure if they are a typical, cuddly, lapdog  Sounds fun to raise.


Min Pins and Manchesters look like first cousins to me. From what I've read, Manchester Terriers (standard size) went into the Doberman soup. I could see where Manchesters contributed to the Dobe's look, and it's extra tanginess.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I could see that. I don't know, but a Manchester as a common ancestor... and a Manchester x Rott mix to create a Dobie.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm surprised more people haven't recommended Papillons. Except for the long hair, they seem like a natural choice in terms of personality & temperament - lots of dog in a tiny little package. Seemingly 86% of the people here are Pap owners, so you should be able to get some good information on breeders near you.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

well my 11 year old dog seemed delighted when I brought my firends toy puppy snauzer (sp?) and actually starting prancing around and playing with him, looked very happy and delighted which is great. The senior dog has arthritis in both hips, but also has allergies that although on predixone (sp) he still will scartch himself so hard he bleeds, and the predizone is what is taking down his life but he is much better on it. Quality over quantity kind of deal. I really like the min pins, but I found some private people with chihuahuas that need homes because fo moving, older pups, here are a few ads I am taking into consideration:

http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-pets-do...OUNCING-BABY-BOY-CHIHUAHUA-W0QQAdIdZ229803966 

I found this breeder, but her pups may be out of my price range, but taking that in consideration, Java is the one I am mainly interested in and he has all the vet stuff done, which I will consider in the purcahse price aswell. 

http://www.joneschihuahuas.com/http___www.joneschihuahuas.com/Available_Pups_Adult_Chihuahuas.html

so what do you think of those 2? More to come as I keep looking.


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## indiana (May 27, 2010)

That's great that your dog is excited about having a puppy too!

Stay away from Kijiji. That first listing is for sure a BYB. How do you have an "accidental" pregnancy twice? Who leaves dogs that have already had puppies alone together while you are on vacation? Do not buy from them.

The other site is basically the same stuff. What health testing do they do on their dogs? 

Also, I thought you wanted a Min Pin? Don't compromise on the breed you want just because it's convenient. You will have that dog for a very very long time...


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

thank you, the place with Java doesn't seem to me to be a BYB http://www.joneschihuahuas.com/http___www.joneschihuahuas.com/Available_Pups_Adult_Chihuahuas.html , and from thorough looks at min pins they are out of my price range and not close to where I live, and some people did seem to be insulted when I mentioned about the tail, so although I have 1 breeder I am still waiting to hear from, min pins do not seem to be available for me but I am still looking. I want a black/tan dog that is for sure which is why I was leaning mainly towards min pins and I liked there face better, but I am learning that not every chi has an apple head, and Java didn't seem to have an applish head. I don't want to sound like I am being mean or rude by being so picky, but I figured I'll be with this dog for a long time, and its not a rescue or a 'free" dog, I am paying big bucks, so I should get what I want ,temperment, color, look wise. Am i right?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Jones seems to be one of the less reprehensible types of BYB, lots of dogs and constant puppies, but they're toy dogs so I can forgive the numbers somewhat. I am a little concerned that I couldn't seem to figure out which pups come from which parents. But the dogs look to be well taken care of.

The biggest thing for me is that there doesn't seem to be any health testing done. Just because it's not on the website doesn't mean it hasn't been done, but if the breeder can't show you PROOF that the parents of that pup have passing patellas, I would absolutely not get a dog from her. There are more tests that Chis should have done, but I would insist on patellas at the bare minimum. You can read more about health tests on Chihuahuas here: http://www.chihuahuaclubofamerica.com/NEW TRANSFER/HealthTesting1.html Click the name of the test (BAER, Cardiac OFA, etc) to get more information.

Health testing is more than just "The vet says they are healthy." It's taking imaging of the dog's internal structure - bones, heart, ears - and having them evaluated by a specialist. Dogs are stoic by nature and don't usually give outward signs of discomfort or ill health, and this is a way to see problems before they get bad enough to show. They are also genetic diseases, so by screening dogs before breeding, better breeding decisions can be made. You don't want to breed a dog whose kneecaps are constantly slipping out of place, because there is a very good chance that her puppies will have slipping kneecaps (luxating patellas) which makes it painful - up to impossible - to walk or run.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

thank you for that info. I figured because Java, the one I am interested in seemed to have been tattooed, vet check etc that that would be done, but I will look into that. IS there anything specfic I should look into for min pins?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Check out the MinPin club--every breed has a breed club, and their websites will tell you what testing should be done and how to find a good breeder.

And, no, I wouldn't count on a dog "with all vet work done" to have had things like eyes and patellas checked. Those tests are out of the ordinary, and sometimes you have to go to a specialist vet to have them done.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Make sure they have gotten a pateller exam, Luxating pattelas are a common problem with small dogs.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

i checked the min pin club and they have nothing for my area! GRRRR. I did read the health issues though, which makes me think I really want to go to this rescue event on sunday and see if I can find myself a younger animal that I just bond with. So far I have had no interest in my wanted ad that weren't scams, and no one has replied back that I have contacted


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> thank you for that info. I figured because Java, the one I am interested in seemed to have been tattooed, vet check etc that that would be done, but I will look into that. IS there anything specfic I should look into for min pins?


I couldn't get a definitive answer out of the Min Pin club, but all toy dogs should have patellas done, it's part of being small dogs. It looks like hearts are commonly done too. I quickly looked over this breeder's website, they look very good and there's a lot of excellent information. I don't know where they are in relation to you, but it's something to look at: http://www.tridelminpins.com/


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

These BYB puppies may look more appealing with their lower up front cost but you may well end up putting that "savings" into your vets pocket due to the lack of health testing on the pups parents. My $200 BYB puppy has cost over $1000 in vet care (beyond the routine stuff every puppy needs) in his first 19 months of life. Sorta blew that "savings" didnt we? And he'll continue to be a high maintenance, special needs adult...


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

I am not all for spending a low amount, so if I get an answer from the people with Java should I ask about pattela's or should i just get it done myself, should it be that if they are asking a larger amount of money, I make them do the test before I get the pup, or is it my responsiblity? I am just wondering, and I should if they say its been done, I should ask to see the vet records then?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

The testing needs to be done on the Parents not the puppy. It's about preventing health problems, and not passing them on


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> I am not all for spending a low amount, so if I get an answer from the people with Java should I ask about pattela's or should i just get it done myself, should it be that if they are asking a larger amount of money, I make them do the test before I get the pup, or is it my responsiblity? I am just wondering, and I should if they say its been done, I should ask to see the vet records then?


Patella testing needs to be done on dogs before they are bred. It's not a bad idea to get them done on your pup even if you know you'll never breed him or her (I think it's kind of neat, and interesting in it's own right), but it needs to have been done on the parents. Doing it now doesn't really help you get a puppy that is free from it, and I don't think you can do it until a year any way. Ask for the OFA number so you can look up the records. OFA is a public database, so if they can't give you that number so you can CHECK that the patellas have passed, pass on the dog. I am very very doubtful that these people will be able to produce such proof, and you really want more than just patellas done. 

Prices on toy dogs are often very high because they can be difficult to breed and often have small litters. Cheap puppies very rarely stay that way, and with the amount of money you'll spend on the dog over its lifetime, a few hundred dollars more upfront hardly makes a difference in the long run.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

xXScribbleXx said:


> I am not all for spending a low amount, so if I get an answer from the people with Java should I ask about pattela's or should i just get it done myself, should it be that if they are asking a larger amount of money, I make them do the test before I get the pup, or is it my responsiblity? I am just wondering, and I should if they say its been done, I should ask to see the vet records then?


Generally, the parent dogs are the ones who should have been tested, not the pup. They have to be a certain age before you can get a definitive answer, puppies who aren't done growing will have looser joints and testing wouldn't do any good. I'm not sure about patellas. . .but for hips, there's a national database the parent dogs should be registered with once they've been tested, after the x-rays have been read by an expert. I wouldn't trust just the local vet giving his personal opinion about their knees, unless he's a board-certified orthopedic expert.


Ahh, great minds, LOL! 

I didn't know OFA certified knees, too, good to know.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

okay... well i will check it out

we seem to have alot of BYS but no actual good breeders around my location. Makes for a downer. But sunday is in a couple days and maybe I can find something suitable or my hopes get up. I didn't think it would be that hard. I am going to see Java as he is about 2 hours away from me if I get more info from them as they seem knowledgeable, but I am not expert.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> okay... well i will check it out
> 
> we seem to have alot of BYS but no actual good breeders around my location. Makes for a downer. But sunday is in a couple days and maybe I can find something suitable or my hopes get up. I didn't think it would be that hard. I am going to see Java as he is about 2 hours away from me if I get more info from them as they seem knowledgeable, but I am not expert.


Write down a list of things you MUST see before you take home a puppy. OFA numbers and results, pedigree, meet the parents, etc. Only you can make the list. If one thing is missing, LEAVE. It is so, so hard to see a puppy and not take him home. SO HARD. Please don't walk into what you know is a BYB and leave with a puppy and some excuse about how you're saving his life, if it was you it would be some one else, etc. That doesn't help and it does perpetuate BYBs and homeless pets.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

very true. I looked on the rescue website I am going to visit on sunday and a few months ago someone adopted a min pin male from them, man was I frosted, that could have been me!!! OH well I am the believer of everything happens for a reason. SO maybe there will be another cutie with my name on it, maybe there won't be. I wrote the stuff down for pedigree.

UPDATE

well I got a hold of the breeders of the Java, and those cute pups, and the 2 pups I was interested in were 1200-1500.00 so my one horse I can't even sell for that much! (I am in the wrong business) but she is willing to let Java go for $450.00 so I asked about OFA and pedigree info, along with the serious question, whats up with the price difference? Is it really just because the "cute" puppy is gone?

checked under CKC website for reputable breeders and the breeder is also on the list for that aswell.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Where exactly are you located? 

And, you have mentioned cost a few times. Is that in relation to the initial purchase price, or do you think small dogs will be less expensive in the long run? I can tell you right now if you pick the wrong "breeder" you could end up paying in more ways than one. I have a rescue who came from a breeder that looked quite a bit like the BYB you're looking at. His parents had no health testing to speak of, he has PRA, extreme behavioral issues, and I wait all the time for something else to pop up.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

inital price. Most of the dogs I have been interested in have been more than what I can afford. I thinking about just giving up and enjoying what I have now.

I now alot of BYB's with the horse world aswell, but I also know there is the odd one that is good. 

I live in Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada, and I am only willing to travel 2 hours away, which all decently priced dogs are atleast 4 hours or more away


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> inital price. Most of the dogs I have been interested in have been more than what I can afford. I thinking about just giving up and enjoying what I have now.
> 
> I now alot of BYB's with the horse world aswell, but I also know there is the odd one that is good.
> 
> I live in Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada, and I am only willing to travel 2 hours away, which all decently priced dogs are atleast 4 hours or more away


I know what i'm going to say sounds sucky, but it is what it is. If you can't afford the initial price, you need to save until you can. Also, most breeders that I'm aware of don't just have pups available any time you have the cash. There are sometimes very long wait lists. I would suggest trying to get onto that wait list and saving for the cost of the pup and travel to pick up said pup.

I can't speak about the horse world at all, but the term BYB doesn't leave room for any good. Are there BYBs out there who love their dogs and just thought it would be nice to have puppies? I'm sure. But it doesn't make them good. My Dachshunds breeders have bible quotes all over their web page and seem like a nice family, but they still bred a dog with a genetic condition and passed it on to who knows how many pups including my own. He's a nervy, unsound dog and from the breeder herself it sounds like so is his mother (she's DA and ripped the ear off one of his litter mates).


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

well I don't really think its something that is wrong to want in my price range, asking for 1500.00 for a dog to me is kind of dumb, especially for a nuetered male. BUT that is why I am not a breeder. The unfortunate thing is I do havea time limit to which Ic an start involving a pup, and that is now, by april/may it will be too busy in horse season to bring in a new animal. I don't need show pedigrees, and I don't need papers. Its a pet. So I am going to look at Java because the breeders are serious breeders, they know about [patella problems and so only have dogs with a long lineage of not having it, they are reasonable people and the reason this dog is so inexpensive is only because its not "cute" anymore as a puppy because she kept it thinking it would have made a nice replacement breeding dog but his muzzle and weight got to large for her liking, so just wants to find him a good home. They have vet checked it, and herself can check for patella issues because she had 3 breeding dogs that did have it, and she vowed to never have it again because of the pain and misfortune. But other people are going to look at Java so I am going back to my first update where I found a breeder who is expecting min pins, and would be more than happy to not dock a tail.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I am NOT experienced with small dogs but I have a free opinion:
1. Your mutt has health problems ... is it really that big of a deal. Yes, perfection is nice, but cost is an issue now. 
2. BYB and rescues are a health gamble, but otherwise can be great dogs.
3. Both MinPins and Chi's need lots of socialization with other dogs (and horses), and especially larger dogs. An unsocialized Chi barks continuously (from fear ?), but a socialized dog is very sweet, confident, and calm.
4. Spoiling is fine, just don't carry them around, like little babies.
5. if you visit Java, you might be able to ask for more help on the price. Compliment the owner, but imply you are also looking at MinPins in your price range (unless you really find a good MinPin....) I think you can easily get her down to $400 when she meets you, and you might horse trade lower.

6. Rather than steroids, would a special medicated oatmeal bath, and maybe a change in diet to more expensive dogfood with no corn or grain, help the allergies. Cost of meds vs. food might be an even trade.

7. If the steroids can be eliminated through diet and bathing, the arthritis may improve, or Rimadyl (with a handful of food) can help alot.


Let us know the new dilemma... after Sunday


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

well my 11 year old mutt is on Blue food, with no grains, corn etc. He gets bathed now probably once a week while also getting cut (believe it or not, but the best "shampoo" for him is the original amber colored listerine), we tried him on a raw meat diet to really see if it was feed, and no, he stayed the same, so we have tried everything, and reality is, it hurts, this dog when he was older used to pull me and my sister on out snow boards, and sleds, and I used to (before I got horses) have him jump a small course, and he pretty much was my horse until I was 12. Cause I am that cool for training my dog like a horse.

Java is in my price range, no question, I'd give her the full amount, unfortunatly I'd have to wait for payday but would give her a deposit (change of jobs, the first pay cheque always sucks), which she won't take, and someone else is going to look at him on Friday so I believe he won't be available sunday, which might be a blessing because I DO want a minpin, but no one is epecting anymore, the available ones have tails docked, and the one breeder who expects will not reply to any contact. If I didn't gag each time a saw a docked tail I'd just buy one, but I really really hate the look (sorry)

what is not in my price range is 700.00 and up. I was hoping 300-450.00.

this dog would be socialized he would be with my dog and cat, then my coaches 2 toy schnauzers, my other friends 3 small dogs, 2 boarder collies, 2 chihuahuaXdachsundXpomeranian's, so yeah, he'd be socialised.


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## indiana (May 27, 2010)

I agree that both rescue and BYB can be a health gamble, but with rescue you are not supporting the people who are choosing to make these health gambles with puppies. A rescue is far more likely to have a quality dog that you can afford. Besides the initial money issue, it sounds like you can give this dog a great home! Just don't support someone who is making money off breeding questionable dogs.

Did Java's breeder get back to you about the health testing? (or did I miss that somewhere?)


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

I talked to Javas owner about OFA and she said none of her breeding "stock" have any patella problems in atleast 4 generations, but that they are not registered under OFA because she had purchased 2 breeding pairs that did have patella problems but were OFA guaranteed or something so she has a grudge and doesn't believe in it, so she knows about it, knows how to check for the patella problems, and guarantees Java and his parents, grand parents, and great grand parents to not have it. She has had over 4 dogs with it that she siad she had to do a major surgeries on and spay/neuture them so she said she won't breed anything. She does sound very responsible, along with getting awards on her dogs, I think that she isn't a BYB at all.

The reason Java is the price he is because she thought about using him as her next stud dog, but his muzzle became to long and he grew too big for her liking, but all the negative parts of him are what I want, so I am pretty happy about that. Unfortunatly she is not willing to take a deposit and then me come back in 2 weeks to pick him up with the rest of the money, so I am waiting to find litters ready in October now. So that means its not meant to be.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> I talked to Javas owner about OFA and she said none of her breeding "stock" have any patella problems in atleast 4 generations, but that they are not registered under OFA because she had purchased 2 breeding pairs that did have patella problems but were OFA guaranteed or something so she has a grudge and doesn't believe in it, so she knows about it, knows how to check for the patella problems, and guarantees Java and his parents, grand parents, and great grand parents to not have it. She has had over 4 dogs with it that she siad she had to do a major surgeries on and spay/neuture them so she said she won't breed anything. She does sound very responsible, along with getting awards on her dogs, I think that she isn't a BYB at all.


Bull. Shit. I don't know what awards she told you she got, but she has some graphics on the front page of her website that mean *nothing*. They are for her website, NOT her breeding program, they are not from reputable or knowledgeable websites, and _her website isn't that good_. This is NOT a breeder you need to be supporting. 

Dogs are expensive. Please read ThoseWordsAtBest's post again, upfront cost is not a area to save money on. If you need to get a puppy in a certain season, why not take the time between now and then to put money away? In the lifetime of the dog, it is not that big of a difference (it can actually save you money, for example PRA is pretty easily avoidable in Dachshunds if the appropriate tests are done before breeding) and you get the support of a breeder who knows the breed in general and her dogs in particular for the lifetime of your dog. Please take what we're telling you seriously, we're not trying to keep you from getting a dog we're trying to help you make a positive change in the future population of homeless dogs.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

well if breeders want there dogs to go to family homes where the care is taken care of etc they have tot ake into account 1500.00 for a pup not including nuetering/spaying, etc. MOST families who want a pet are not willing to spend 1500.00 on a dog, people showing, probably. I am going back to the horse world because dogs and horses the politics and such are the same, for a horse like mine without the show pedigree would be worth 500.00 or less (registered still), for my horse i paid 8000.00 because I wanted to show (he had his risks because people breed for things such as patella that the look may ahve been desirable but the after effects, or too much breeding effect etc are bad) my own horse has problems with joints, so I inject him with steriods and such to keep him performing, its a standard practise for all his type of showing, same goes for dogs. BYB's in the horse world are horrible, they breed to send to slaughter because its 500.00 for meat. Do i think because I want a min pin, chi, for 500.00 or less I shouldn't be allowed, no, actually its kind of rude, I wouldn't tell someone to be careful of finding something in their price range because they want to be able to afford necessities for the dog after words. I would give them the problems and advise, which maybe you don't think I am listening to any advice, but I am, but I have looked into pups and the ones with all the OFA guarantee and pedigrees with showing parents are 1500.00, sorry but my one horse who is out of show parents isn't worth that much and costs less than upkeep. I came on here looking for advice in my price range, not people telling me to work on more than I can afford. I don't think the lady is a BYB she seems very knowledgeable and helpful, answering any questions I have, showing my both parents, and being very upfront. I am not looking at the BYB ads but more of people who bred there one good pet dog, to someone advertising the same breed dog stud, and then getting a few pups, when I see them having more than 1 type of pup, or "mutts" in all their ads I leave. Those dogs do still need homes though and not for rescuing but just because they are alive. I am going to check the rescue event on sunday, if I don't find anything in a few months, I'll just wait, I've waiting 6 years, another couple more really isn't that big of a deal, I just figured, I have a year of knowing I have a part time job, no school, and that would be a great time to make sure a new pup is comfortable and train the basics before I go back to school part time. So thanks for all the info, but I think I'll just forget about the idea


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Note: the following is my opinion.

A puppy is a purchase of a product, but is much more. You can get screwed on the purchaser of a gas-fired grill, or home entertainment system, but you can put those out in the trash if they don't work. A puppy is not a child, but you (I) assume responsibility for a living creature when the purchase is made. Cheap puppies can be expensive, but I won't support a breeder who risks the pain, suffering, and unnecessary euthanization of poorly bred dogs. Someone who "doesn't believe" in OFA is to be avoided with extreme prejudice. There are no guarantees (other than replacement) that a pup will be healthy, but you can stack the odds by buying quality. Quality costs money. The purchase price of the best pup is a relatively small number compared to overall ownership costs. Buy wisely, and you only cry once.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

Yes, but same with any other product, you can find a middle ground, maybe it is not the best, but it is not the cheapest either. I am looking for a middle ground, and I don't think I should be looked down upon for trying to find that. If something seems fishy to me, I'll leave, I've walked away from many horses I had fallen in love with in photo, and walked away from. Same can go with finding a perfect dog for me. This lady may not be perfect but she has done the necessary research in order to make sure, the grand parents, great grandparents, etc had no patella or health problems aswell. Hell, I could purchase a 1500.00 dog, then pay 200.00 or more for neutering and tattoo, and have him slip, or fall down stairs, or get very sick and have to be PTS, just because they are 1500.00 doesn't mean they are invinceable, and I"d rather be out 450.00 than 1700.00, yeah know what I mean?

Anyways the 450.00 dog sounds like he is sold, so I am going on Sunday to a rescue event (A dog grooming place has all the rescues available from around here come together for an adoption day), maybe find myself the result of a BYB, and go from there. Its sounds like the best way to go. If not, I am okay with waiting until the right one comes along.


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## indiana (May 27, 2010)

No one is telling you rescue is bad! The rescue event sounds like a great place to find a dog and I think rescue will help you find a dog that is "middle ground" on price while not supporting puppymill/BYB. Plus if you fall in love with a dog there then you would be able to afford it and it would already be spayed/neutered. Forgive me if anyone has mentioned it, but have you checked Petfinder? (does it reach Canada?) Because that can be helpful as well. I think people understand that money is an issue, but spend that money helping out a rescue instead supporting a dubious breeder. She's not awful, but definitely not worth paying a lot of money to! I hope you are able to find a great dog this weekend at the rescue event and I really want to see the pictures if you do!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

indiana said:


> I think people understand that money is an issue, but spend that money helping out a rescue instead supporting a dubious breeder.


Yeah, that.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> well I don't really think its something that is wrong to want in my price range, asking for 1500.00 for a dog to me is kind of dumb, especially for a nuetered male. BUT that is why I am not a breeder. The unfortunate thing is I do havea time limit to which Ic an start involving a pup, and that is now, by april/may it will be too busy in horse season to bring in a new animal. I don't need show pedigrees, and I don't need papers. Its a pet. So I am going to look at Java because the breeders are serious breeders, they know about [patella problems and so only have dogs with a long lineage of not having it, they are reasonable people and the reason this dog is so inexpensive is only because its not "cute" anymore as a puppy because she kept it thinking it would have made a nice replacement breeding dog but his muzzle and weight got to large for her liking, so just wants to find him a good home. They have vet checked it, and herself can check for patella issues because she had 3 breeding dogs that did have it, and she vowed to never have it again because of the pain and misfortune. But other people are going to look at Java so I am going back to my first update where I found a breeder who is expecting min pins, and would be more than happy to not dock a tail.


There isn't any thing wrong in considering a price range but you're buying a life. If a car poops out on you because of a bad transmission, no one suffers if you don't pay to get it fixed except you. If a puppy comes to you and has a luxating patella you're looking at costly surgery and after care and if you chose not to do it the dog suffers. Needing an impressive pedigree or not has nothing to do with the scheme of things. Is $1,500 not worth 10+ years of life? 

Java's breeders sound like fast talking BYBs. Stating that they KNOW about the problems and yet still don't do OFAs to prevent breeding dogs with genetic issues is horrifying to me. Breeders also stand behind their dogs and don't waffle on a price just because they know it isn't "cute" anymore. She is also full of it if she said she could check the puppy for patella problems herself. Uh, you can't even have the x-rays for the OFA database done efficiently to tell any thing until the dog is 2 years old. 

Honestly, this is sounding like another frustrating case of instant gratification to me. If you're going to turn a blind eye to why BYBs are bad and purchase a puppy any way you're not going to get a very favorable response from me. I also very much hope that nothing happens to your dog. I'm very sad my dog is gong blind at a young age and cannot be handled by people or greet other dogs because someone bred two dogs together with no regards to health testing or any thing and that people would pay folks like them money to keep it going.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

LuvMyAngels said:


> These BYB puppies may look more appealing with their lower up front cost but you may well end up putting that "savings" into your vets pocket due to the lack of health testing on the pups parents. My $200 BYB puppy has cost over $1000 in vet care (beyond the routine stuff every puppy needs) in his first 19 months of life. Sorta blew that "savings" didnt we? And he'll continue to be a high maintenance, special needs adult...


Same here  And not only that, my sweet little guy has to live his life in pain, only aleviated by medication. That is NO way for any dog to have to live.



xXScribbleXx said:


> Yes, but same with any other product, you can find a middle ground, maybe it is not the best, but it is not the cheapest either. I am looking for a middle ground, and I don't think I should be looked down upon for trying to find that. If something seems fishy to me, I'll leave, I've walked away from many horses I had fallen in love with in photo, and walked away from. Same can go with finding a perfect dog for me. This lady may not be perfect but she has done the necessary research in order to make sure, the grand parents, great grandparents, etc had no patella or health problems aswell. Hell, I could purchase a 1500.00 dog, then pay 200.00 or more for neutering and tattoo, and have him slip, or fall down stairs, or get very sick and have to be PTS, just because they are 1500.00 doesn't mean they are invinceable, and I"d rather be out 450.00 than 1700.00, yeah know what I mean?
> 
> Anyways the 450.00 dog sounds like he is sold, so I am going on Sunday to a rescue event (A dog grooming place has all the rescues available from around here come together for an adoption day), maybe find myself the result of a BYB, and go from there. Its sounds like the best way to go. If not, I am okay with waiting until the right one comes along.


Good luck at the rescue event. When I got my youngest dog, I saw his litter on petfinder and just KNEW I had to have one, so I did. Sometimes you just know.
I have a well bred dog who was 4 digits in purchase price. You're right, things happen. He got sick when he was 9 months old and cost me GOBS of money in vet bills, but he's still here, he's healthy and happy and active. Crap happens. The difference is I had a breeder who stood behind her dog and came up with some very good advice on what could be causing the problems. His problem wasn't inherited from his parents, it was environmental, and it just happened.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Where is this Java breeder's site?
The Java breeder DOES do real health testing but just doesn't send the results into OFA? I think Laurelin said that's kinda common of small dog breeders even the best that produce healthy pups.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

how can it be a spur of the moment decision and instant gratification if A) I have been interested in these breeds for 6 years, wanting one, that is alot of time to think B)know about life, giving the fact that I gave you my story of my show horses, your just rude and figure anyone and everyone can afford 1500.00 dogs, well sorry but I can't, and doesn't mean I am not allowed to work in my price range. We have very few breeders around here, and when i look into the states they have about 500% more breeders than we do, so I am limited. You guys have decently priced breeders too, we don't theya re either show dogs, or pets and one of you especially seems to not want me to even look into the pets, which si what I want.

Java's owners were obviously pretty succesfull and talented and know what they are doing because Java is sold, the person came from 6-7 hours away interested in the dog. So to me that means see has a good reputation, and to have a good reputation you can't have dogs needing surgeries, and pain meds constantly, and alot of vet bills. She started breeding dogs in 95 so she would have bad reputation by now.

I have contacted a few breeders with min pins and none of them are expecting anymore pups. I am going to the rescue, but I have looked at the dogs available and nothing is what I am looking for all big dogs, but maybe someone nearby will be advertising pups, you never know, but I have low hopes. Thanks for all the info, gave me stuff to think about.


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## indiana (May 27, 2010)

Tell us how it goes on Sunday! I hope you find the perfect dog there!


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

checked on petfinder, and although there were a few chihuahua crosses I am looking for a young dog, because an older dog with no experience may find my house hard to deal with, with a new dog and a new cat to be introduced too. So thank you, I hope the rescue goes well too, and I'll post pics for sure


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> how can it be a spur of the moment decision and instant gratification if A) I have been interested in these breeds for 6 years, wanting one, that is alot of time to think B)know about life, giving the fact that I gave you my story of my show horses, your just rude and figure anyone and everyone can afford 1500.00 dogs, well sorry but I can't, and doesn't mean I am not allowed to work in my price range. We have very few breeders around here, and when i look into the states they have about 500% more breeders than we do, so I am limited. You guys have decently priced breeders too, we don't theya re either show dogs, or pets and one of you especially seems to not want me to even look into the pets, which si what I want.
> 
> Java's owners were obviously pretty succesfull and talented and know what they are doing because Java is sold, the person came from 6-7 hours away interested in the dog. So to me that means see has a good reputation, and to have a good reputation you can't have dogs needing surgeries, and pain meds constantly, and alot of vet bills. She started breeding dogs in 95 so she would have bad reputation by now.


I'm sorry, but if you could point out to me where I explicitly said every one should pay $1,500 (what an arbitrary number you have pulled, by the way) and expect every one to be able to afford that. In fact, I believe my VERY FIRST POST to you was to save up if you were going to buy from a breeder, and you can bet the farm that is what plenty of folks on this forum did to buy their dogs. I in fact never said the words "spur of the moment" and don't know how you find buying a dog from a BYB just because they're cheap and you could get the puppy whenever you wanted for cheap is instant gratification. 

I don't believe you have any understanding how reputable breeders work or why anyone would oppose buying one from other sources. The fact that you think this breeder is good because that dog sold to someone however many hours away and that she "has a good reputation" tells me this. No one said you couldn't get a pet quality dog from a breeder, either. Take some time to do some research on breeders because just picking one. I'm not going to explain the cost thing to you again because it is not even worth it. 

I believe you only find me rude because I'm not saying exactly what you wanted to hear, which was probably "OMG cute puppy buy it now now now!"I'm sorry the plight of dogs with genetic conditions and the risk these people who breed willy nilly for money take is not a worthy cause to you. I have hardly been rude to you, especially as someone who owns rescues that are the shining results of BYBs.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I'm sorry, but if you could point out to me where I explicitly said every one should pay $1,500 If you had seen one of my posts I mentioned the dogs I was interested from the breeders I researched on the CKC website for reputable breeders that had the OFA and such were around the 1200-1500.00 price range, which goes back to you saying you want me to buy from there, which answers 2 questions of yours(what an arbitrary number you have pulled, by the way) and expect every one to be able to afford that. In fact, I believe my VERY FIRST POST to you was to save up if you were going to buy from a breeder, and you can bet the farm that is what plenty of folks on this forum did to buy their dogs. I in fact never said the words "spur of the moment" and don't know how you find buying a dog from a BYB just because they're cheap and you could get the puppy whenever you wanted for cheap is instant gratification. It is not instant gratification, I am being responsible and know that I only have approx 1 year to aclimate the dog to my home, get him used to my cat and dog, train the basics, and know the family before I am going back to school and will have less time to do so, and soon around April all my funds will be shifted towards entry fees for show horses
> 
> I don't believe you have any understanding how reputable breeders work or why anyone would oppose buying one from other sources I think I do, but choose to look at different options because the breeders you advise me to look into I have contacted and there dogs are to expensive because all they have are show dogs or not expecting any until spring/summer which I can't do. The fact that you think this breeder is good because that dog sold to someone however many hours away and that she "has a good reputation" tells me this. No one said you couldn't get a pet quality dog from a breeder, either. Take some time to do some research on breeders because just picking one. I'm not going to explain the cost thing to you again because it is not even worth it. and yet again, I can say, yes I understand the vet costs can be just as much as the dog or more if problems arise, but at the same time it may not, and a 1500.00 dog can get injured just as easily as a 300.00 dog, except I am out 1200.00, so I don't think you really understand where I am coming from, sure you can fight it and say that 300.00 dog may need a 2000.00 surgery but at the same time it may not, it is a luck of the draw
> 
> I believe you only find me rude because I'm not saying exactly what you wanted to hear, which was probably "OMG cute puppy buy it now now now!"I'm sorry the plight of dogs with genetic conditions and the risk these people who breed willy nilly for money take is not a worthy cause to you. I have hardly been rude to you, especially as someone who owns rescues that are the shining results of BYBs.


lastly, as I said before, I did some research and USA has way more breeders than us making the price and the quality vs quantity about 500% better, so maybe you find it harder to grasp that I cannot afford a breeder because you are used to where you live, but I don't know, anyways my replies are in red obviously 

okay and would anyone be interested in telling me what they think of her: c-pets-dogs-puppies-for-sale-Beautiful-adorable-chihuahua-please-call-or-text-W0QQAdIdZ230455708  I know its on kijiji and not my color, but she seems really cute, but what do I know? I am starting to regret putting this up even though I got some good info, and really appreciate the info, so just let me know what you think of her, she is the look of a pup I want, too bad about not being the color, but I know in the horse world its about disposition, health, and temperment over color


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## indiana (May 27, 2010)

The link doesn't work, but I'm going to guess from the "beautiful adorable chihuahua pets dogs puppies for sale" that it's a bad idea. I know you are excited and can't wait to get your puppy, but maybe waiting is the right thing to do? Wait until you can find the right dog from a good source at the right price for you. You'll have this dog for a long time and a couple of month now won't matter much when you have the perfect dog for you that was from a good source and remains healthy for it's whole life! 

Wait until Sunday at least! I wouldn't be surprised if some little guy/gal that you weren't expecting stole your heart. A cool thing about rescue is sometimes the dog just chooses you and that's an incredible feeling. 

I wish you loads of luck, but I hope you know now that if you post ads that are from kijiji or a BYB people get upset. There are so many unwanted and PTS dogs that it's very personal for a lot of people here. I don't want you to feel attacked, but you've heard the advice some gentle and some not (and understandably). You know what people think you should do. Either use the advice or don't.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

> and yet again, I can say, yes I understand the vet costs can be just as much as the dog or more if problems arise, but at the same time it may not, and a 1500.00 dog can get injured just as easily as a 300.00 dog, except I am out 1200.00, so I don't think you really understand where I am coming from, sure you can fight it and say that 300.00 dog may need a 2000.00 surgery but at the same time it may not, it is a luck of the draw


Buying from a good breeder is stacking the odds in your favor. Yeah, any dog can fall down the stairs or get hit by a truck, but there are things that good breeding can control. Take TWAB's Jonas for example. He has PRA and will be (is?) going blind. It is ridiculously easy to avoid creating PRA-affected puppies. There is a genetic test available and as long as you only breed Clear x Clear or Clear x Carrier (but not affected) the worst you will get is puppies that carry the disease but aren't affected. 

You keep saying it's about the money, but it's not that we want you to spend fortunes on your dog. It's that responsibly bred dogs don't contribute to the homeless animal problem. It may not look like it, but the $300 pups are probably bringing in a profit for their breeder, while the $1000+ puppy's litter it a net LOSS for the breeder. Doing it right, you cannot make money breeding dogs. The math just doesn't work. But when the backyard breeder rakes in the dough selling a litter of puppies, they're more likely to do it again. The problem is when those $300 puppies don't work out in their new home for whatever reason, they go to the pound. Buying irresponsibly produced puppies DIRECTLY increases the shelter problem, because there is more incentive to keep producing puppies than there is to take responsibility for the ones you've already produced.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

here is the link: http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-pets-do...huahua-please-call-or-text-W0QQAdIdZ230455708 

its not a BYB its a lady who has to move and cannot take her dog where she is being relocated, which is the ONLY reason why I even looked at it (I asked her), I had been more looking on CKC, and petfinder on adoptables, and breeders. I am still waiting for sunday, and if I don't see anything at the rescue, I may go see that pup ^, and then if not, I will keep looking, but after a few months (by january if I don't have a pup I won't look because it would be unfair for me to have it for a couple weeks, and then have it downstairs in a pen while I go to school and its not aclimated yet).


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> Buying from a good breeder is stacking the odds in your favor. Yeah, any dog can fall down the stairs or get hit by a truck, but there are things that good breeding can control. Take TWAB's Jonas for example. He has PRA and will be (is?) going blind. It is ridiculously easy to avoid creating PRA-affected puppies. There is a genetic test available and as long as you only breed Clear x Clear or Clear x Carrier (but not affected) the worst you will get is puppies that carry the disease but aren't affected.
> 
> You keep saying it's about the money, but it's not that we want you to spend fortunes on your dog. It's that responsibly bred dogs don't contribute to the homeless animal problem. It may not look like it, but the $300 pups are probably bringing in a profit for their breeder, while the $1000+ puppy's litter it a net LOSS for the breeder. Doing it right, you cannot make money breeding dogs. The math just doesn't work. But when the backyard breeder rakes in the dough selling a litter of puppies, they're more likely to do it again. The problem is when those $300 puppies don't work out in their new home for whatever reason, they go to the pound. Buying irresponsibly produced puppies DIRECTLY increases the shelter problem, because there is more incentive to keep producing puppies than there is to take responsibility for the ones you've already produced.


_Thank you._ I felt like I was taking crazy pills. To me "It's too expensive" is not the right excuse in any way to buy from a shoddy breeder. What they do is wrong, and if you can't afford it then you can't get a dog. AND like I said, how many people here had to save up before they could afford the dogs they wanted from an ethical breeder? Not a lot of people immediately have a thousand bucks at their disposal and I'm not in any way implying they should. 
Every time Jonas goes to jump on the couch and slams his face into my legs, or hits any thing in the way any other dog can see, or goes any where new and bumps walls and furniture, it is sad to me. I hope the money his breeder made off him was worth it to her.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> _Thank you._ I felt like I was taking crazy pills. To me "It's too expensive" is not the right excuse in any way to buy from a shoddy breeder. What they do is wrong, and if you can't afford it then you can't get a dog. AND like I said, how many people here had to save up before they could afford the dogs they wanted from an ethical breeder? Not a lot of people immediately have a thousand bucks at their disposal and I'm not in any way implying they should.
> Every time Jonas goes to jump on the couch and slams his face into my legs, or hits any thing in the way any other dog can see, or goes any where new and bumps walls and furniture, it is sad to me. I hope the money his breeder made off him was worth it to her.


Sigh...poor Jonas  I'm lucky, I've saved money since I was 14 years old and I live relatively cheap. When it was decided I was going to buy Auz, I went to the bank and made a transfer. It was that simple. Not so much anymore, but it was a case of "if you want the dog...buy the dog". I couldn't do that now!
I've gone on before (at work) about buying poor quality puppies from poor quality breeders, so they can turn around and be "breeded" again to fill the demand. Unfortunately 90% of the time it seems to fall on deaf ears. 10 years down the road (or in some unfortunate cases, much sooner) people learn the hard way. Their 5 year old golden can't even walk anymore because his hips are turning to dust, or the 3 year old springer has epilepsy so bad it can't be controlled, or the year old newfoundland has horrible hips with an equally horrible temperament to match (some nanny, eh?) Ignorance is curable (people learn their lessons) and dumb is forever (they go right back to the same breeder, or type of breeder, expecting different results). 
What ticks me off the worst is when people walk in with a new puppy and say "I got him a the petstore. _I know you're not supposed to buy from pet stores_ but he looked SO SAD..." If they don't know any better they were just ignorant and didn't do their research. But the ones who say in the same breath "I know the horrible conditions they come from BUT" really chap my you-know-what. But what's done is done. And there's no greater way to get my blood pressure off the charts than to correct me and say they RESCUED him from the pet store...that IMO is doing a horrible disservice to people who REALLY rescue. Paying 1,000 bucks for a puppy in a pet shop so that space can be filled by another genetic nightmare isn't exactly rescue IMO. 
Turning the tables on my own argument, I can see where people get messed up by hearing "you get what you pay for". You can get a second hand dog or a show/working wash out for a lot cheaper than you can get a pet store puppy for. I've seen 6 month old puppies from show litters be sold for less becaus their bite is off, or they have a poor front, or...or...or... Paying $450 for a show pup who's slightly "off" for the ring makes it look like they're "cheaper". 
Good breeders can get up to 2,000 for their very young pups, and have waiting lists. Pet stores get 1,500 for the same breed and you can take your puppy home TODAY.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Sigh...poor Jonas  I'm lucky, I've saved money since I was 14 years old and I live relatively cheap. When it was decided I was going to buy Auz, I went to the bank and made a transfer. It was that simple. Not so much anymore, but it was a case of "if you want the dog...buy the dog". I couldn't do that now!
> I've gone on before (at work) about buying poor quality puppies from poor quality breeders, so they can turn around and be "breeded" again to fill the demand. Unfortunately 90% of the time it seems to fall on deaf ears. 10 years down the road (or in some unfortunate cases, much sooner) people learn the hard way. Their 5 year old golden can't even walk anymore because his hips are turning to dust, or the 3 year old springer has epilepsy so bad it can't be controlled, or the year old newfoundland has horrible hips with an equally horrible temperament to match (some nanny, eh?) Ignorance is curable (people learn their lessons) and dumb is forever (they go right back to the same breeder, or type of breeder, expecting different results).
> What ticks me off the worst is when people walk in with a new puppy and say "I got him a the petstore. _I know you're not supposed to buy from pet stores_ but he looked SO SAD..." If they don't know any better they were just ignorant and didn't do their research. But the ones who say in the same breath "I know the horrible conditions they come from BUT" really chap my you-know-what. But what's done is done. And there's no greater way to get my blood pressure off the charts than to correct me and say they RESCUED him from the pet store...that IMO is doing a horrible disservice to people who REALLY rescue. Paying 1,000 bucks for a puppy in a pet shop so that space can be filled by another genetic nightmare isn't exactly rescue IMO.
> Turning the tables on my own argument, I can see where people get messed up by hearing "you get what you pay for". You can get a second hand dog or a show/working wash out for a lot cheaper than you can get a pet store puppy for. I've seen 6 month old puppies from show litters be sold for less becaus their bite is off, or they have a poor front, or...or...or... Paying $450 for a show pup who's slightly "off" for the ring makes it look like they're "cheaper".
> Good breeders can get up to 2,000 for their very young pups, and have waiting lists. Pet stores get 1,500 for the same breed and you can take your puppy home TODAY.


What drives me REALLY crazy is those same poor dogs can be found by the boat loads at shelters. Just where I found Jonas. If you're going to take the gamble, do it somewhere that is working to save dogs like shelters and rescues, not somewhere that pockets the money or pays a portion to a mill where dogs live in the worst conditions. 
I went in to the Petland near my old town to "secret shop" just to see and get the experience exactly how they have these dogs. Random pups crammed in random cages. Hamster water bottles to drink from. Poop every where. A Cattle dog pup was in a cage that I would not even keep a Guinea pig in. I asked to meet with a Dachshund and they took me to a little box and let me hang with him. Listless little guy. When I said I wouldn't be purchasing him, they said "oh hold on we have a really cheap one." and brought me the saddest looking Chihuahua I've ever seen. Don't know how her tiny legs could support her body. They were selling her "super cheap" at $550 because she was "getting old" at 10 weeks and no one wanted her. That is when i went off about mills and was asked to leave. Why you would buy a dog from that, not even knowing that they come from mills, is beyond me.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> _Thank you._ I felt like I was taking crazy pills. To me "It's too expensive" is not the right excuse in any way to buy from a shoddy breeder. What they do is wrong, and if you can't afford it then you can't get a dog. AND like I said, how many people here had to save up before they could afford the dogs they wanted from an ethical breeder? Not a lot of people immediately have a thousand bucks at their disposal and I'm not in any way implying they should.
> Every time Jonas goes to jump on the couch and slams his face into my legs, or hits any thing in the way any other dog can see, or goes any where new and bumps walls and furniture, it is sad to me. I hope the money his breeder made off him was worth it to her.


I started my puppy fund two weeks ago.  $200 in a special bank account called "PUPPY." I've got two years before I can begin to think about buying a puppy, and I want to have $2,000 in the bank before I start looking at specific litters. Dogs are a major, long-term investment. And, a LIVING THING. Why would you put more thought into what kind of car to get than you would a LIVING THING?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> I started my puppy fund two weeks ago.  $200 in a special bank account called "PUPPY." I've got two years before I can begin to think about buying a puppy, and I want to have $2,000 in the bank before I start looking at specific litters. Dogs are a major, long-term investment. And, a LIVING THING. Why would you put more thought into what kind of car to get than you would a LIVING THING?


The minute I graduate and start my new job, the puppy fund will begin. I've never gotten a pup from a breeder before, so I'm looking to pack away a lot more than necessary to include all the start up things.

And, imagine this, I'm not looking for a show prospect or a foundation bitch or any thing like that. Just a pet. But I'll still get him from the best breeder I can find.


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## Cowgirl Kristin (Feb 19, 2010)

Just a little note: many, many horses dislike small/tiny dogs and will attempt to stomp them, even if they are fine around larger dogs. Goodluck with your search!


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Its sad when people give such good advice about how to properly buy, and its in one ear and out the other. If you dont have the money, save up and wait it out. I want a toy poodle, terribly bad. but I dont got $1200 extra to blow on a puppy, So Im saving for the litter that should be born this summer, from a great breeder. Sure I could go on kijiji and find a toy poodle for 400 bucks. But why would I? Chances are I will spend 1000+ in vet bills for some type of genetic issues. 

Working in a grooming shop. I see tons and tons of dogs with massive issues. Tons of toy breeds with poping kneecaps, eye issues, deformed legs. All obviously from BYB's, and all with health issues. I sure as heck dont want to be stuck with that. Also I want a toy poodle. And all the BYB poodles Is ee look hideous IMO, dont look like the standard at all, same with chihuahuas, lhasa's, bichons ect. all look terrible due to poor breeding.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

just a little update. I decided I'd rather have some money in the bank before hand, and decided while i looked on the website of the rescue dogs available, none of them suited my wants. So as of now, no more kijiji, and I am googling breeders, trying to do some research, I found a lady who breeds great danes and min pins, and she said that she will email me once a rust/black male pup is available, and she will not get his tail done.:whoo: She had a litter a couple weeks ago and unfortunatly I couldn't find her in time, but she said she does expect atleast 1 pup on the 25th but doesn't know what color yet. I did some looking around on the website and its sounds like she is quite responsible. Please keep in mind its a new website, but I needed your guys opinions, this pup should be available around december/january, and if not, there will be more available january-march. What do you think?

http://www.yourpuppy.net/page/page/7144010.htm


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

No health tests done to speak of. The health section simply says she takes them to the vet. Not enough. A two year guarantee doesn't cut it, either. You can't even test for most genetic defects until that age. The only photo she has is of one bitch, and she does not look like a sparkling example of the breed. She also states "I will not breed my bitches more than once a year" which leads me to ask.. she breeds them once a year? For how many years? Starting when? Her FAQ says once a year, bleh, and that she will start as early as 18 months. She has multiple bitches, but I only see one on her site. Puppies aren't registered. Can't be registered or show. I could go on and on with all the stuff this lady is missing.

And I know you aren't looking at Danes, but she breeds one dog to another dog for every litter. One of bitches she says is her oldest dog, but does not list how old she is. And it looks like she really just breeds for pretty colors and mentions "color true" lines.

This "breeder" is a mess. There is a lot more that goes into breeder research than this.


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## xXScribbleXx (Sep 13, 2010)

*sigh* well can anyone find a responsible breeder in 2 hours proximity to Spruce Grove Alberta Canada? I don't drive, that limits where I can go, I work half the time, and have 4 pets to feed so I cannot go on a bus and travel any where overnight, that limits what I can do, I am trying to work with what I am given, and this one is in the list of what I have shown you guys what I can work with, and I don't expect any of you guys to be :"oh wow look at how wonderful and pretty and cute and off in rainbow land we go" but at the same time this person is MUCH better than the others, atleast she has a guarantee, they aren't reg, I really don't care, I don't want to show, and like I said, its a new website and she's working on it, she realises the genetic problems that can arise and so she guarantees that her pups won't carry it (or atleast tries to breed for minimal risks), she said her dogs were all bred from in the USA which I udnerstand why, because I search int he states for chihuahua and min pin breeders and like i said before 500% better than over here, which makes it difficult to registry under CKC. I dunno, some of you guys are rude, because I am soakin up like a sponge all your info or I would have bought a kijiji dog, so for those you say its in one ear and out the other, go away. I was 100% sure on getting a dog off kijiji as all my friends and family except my immediate family bought all their dogs from there, and now I am avoiding it, and doing searches for breeders, that is a MAJOR step. I am also debating on whether I should even forget the idea because yes I can afford the food, and everyday stuff, but i can't afford 1200.00 pup, just can't. But of course everything is going in one ear and out the other right?

Sorry I writing what my thoughts are, because having other opinions is good because you see things different;y than someone else.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

xXScribbleXx said:


> *sigh* well can anyone find a responsible breeder in 2 hours proximity to Spruce Grove Alberta Canada? I don't drive, that limits where I can go, I work half the time, and have 4 pets to feed so I cannot go on a bus and travel any where overnight, that limits what I can do, I am trying to work with what I am given, and this one is in the list of what I have shown you guys what I can work with, and I don't expect any of you guys to be :"oh wow look at how wonderful and pretty and cute and off in rainbow land we go" but at the same time this person is MUCH better than the others, atleast she has a guarantee, they aren't reg, I really don't care, I don't want to show, and like I said, its a new website and she's working on it, she realises the genetic problems that can arise and so she guarantees that her pups won't carry it (or atleast tries to breed for minimal risks), she said her dogs were all bred from in the USA which I udnerstand why, because I search int he states for chihuahua and min pin breeders and like i said before 500% better than over here, which makes it difficult to registry under CKC. I dunno, some of you guys are rude, because I am soakin up like a sponge all your info or I would have bought a kijiji dog, so for those you say its in one ear and out the other, go away. I was 100% sure on getting a dog off kijiji as all my friends and family except my immediate family bought all their dogs from there, and now I am avoiding it, and doing searches for breeders, that is a MAJOR step. I am also debating on whether I should even forget the idea because yes I can afford the food, and everyday stuff, but i can't afford 1200.00 pup, just can't. But of course everything is going in one ear and out the other right?
> 
> I writing what my thoughts are, because having other opinions is good because you see things different;y than someone else.


This will probably be a novel, so I'd like to apologize for that first and foremost. And then I'm sorry that you thought finding a good breeder and the act of getting a puppy was going to be a much easier feat than it is. I am quite lucky I got into rescue first, because I most certainly looked at BYB pups online and didn't know the difference. In fact, I communicated with a terrible breeder and damn near purchased a pup from her. When she put one over on me (guaranteed me this pup and the day I was going to pick him up she contacted me and said "Oh, another family came over and bought him." and offered me a different dog for a much higher price) it was a kick in the pants that made me realize "Maybe I'm doing something wrong." Now, I'm very lucky to have found four great dogs through a rescue. Even a Norwegian Elkhound and my breed of choice, Miniature Dachshund, but one day I would very much like an Irish Wolfhound or a Ibizan. Chances are I'm not going to find one in the shelter, so I had to figure out the best way of going about finding a great breeder. I'm a student and not going to be able to afford that dog from a reputable breeder for a few years, so I have to wait. 

With that out of the way, I don't think you're understanding the importance of a breeder who has titled and proved their dogs, thus sells puppies on registration (you can purchase a limited registration or a pet quality dog) You do NOT have to show your pup and the quality of the parents has nothing to do with whether or not you want to do that. Also, regardless of whether or not the site is new, the information she has on there isn't good. Breeding a bitch once a year and consistently to the same sire is not any good. A genetic guarantee means nothing when it's limited to two years and those conditions can't even be tested for until the dog is two years old. So, if they turn two, turn out to have a problem, you're just SOL. and have to pay the price. Not as high of a price as the poor dog pays. This breeder can't possibly guarantee nothing will arise or breed for minimal risk if she does not do the proper health tests (You may see OFA and CERF tossed around the board, I do not know what is specific to Miniature Pinschers). So, while I'm glad you're apparently listening, I can't congratulate you for continuously finding BYBs and saying "Well, they're better than Kijiji" because they're not. Same sort of people, different venue. 

I have to reiterate why I'm so passionate about this, having never directly purchased from a breeder. My aforementioned Dachshund has PRA, or progressive retinal atrophy. He will be 5 this November and his day vision is starting to go. He is also an unsound dog, and my conversations with his breeder (I found her because his papers came with him at the shelter) lead me to believe temperament isn't her strong suit. So, this damaged dog not only has to deal with every day issues in regards to his temperament, but he has to do them while losing his vision. The tests he had to go through to confirm PRA was also devastating to him because he is difficult to handle. 
As a rescue worker, I get to hear about and handle these poor dogs every day and they're ever flowing into the shelter. BYBs are the bane of my existence because they are only adding to the population without considering potential owners or caring about what might happen to their dogs when they are diagnosed with a genetic defect and that gets them booted from their home.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Working within your limits means something different to me. I wanted a field-bred Golden, so I knew I was looking at long distances and higher dollars. If it had to be local, and it had to be affordable, I would have gone with a Lab. In your case, you are limited by distance and your budget so you may have to consider a 2nd or 3rd choice breed. I can find plenty of JRTs within a couple of hours driving from me, and at about half the price of similarly well bred toy dogs. Unless you have something specific in mind to do with the pup (something an alternative breed can't do), how much difference does it really make?


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

xXScribbleXx said:


> *sigh* well can anyone find a responsible breeder in 2 hours proximity to Spruce Grove Alberta Canada? I don't drive, that limits where I can go, I work half the time, and have 4 pets to feed so I cannot go on a bus and travel any where overnight, that limits what I can do, I am trying to work with what I am given, and this one is in the list of what I have shown you guys what I can work with, and I don't expect any of you guys to be :"oh wow look at how wonderful and pretty and cute and off in rainbow land we go" but at the same time this person is MUCH better than the others, atleast she has a guarantee, they aren't reg, I really don't care, I don't want to show, and like I said, its a new website and she's working on it, she realises the genetic problems that can arise and so she guarantees that her pups won't carry it (or atleast tries to breed for minimal risks), she said her dogs were all bred from in the USA which I udnerstand why, because I search int he states for chihuahua and min pin breeders and like i said before 500% better than over here, which makes it difficult to registry under CKC. I dunno, some of you guys are rude, because I am soakin up like a sponge all your info or I would have bought a kijiji dog, so for those you say its in one ear and out the other, go away. I was 100% sure on getting a dog off kijiji as all my friends and family except my immediate family bought all their dogs from there, and now I am avoiding it, and doing searches for breeders, that is a MAJOR step. I am also debating on whether I should even forget the idea because yes I can afford the food, and everyday stuff, but i can't afford 1200.00 pup, just can't. But of course everything is going in one ear and out the other right?
> 
> Sorry I writing what my thoughts are, because having other opinions is good because you see things different;y than someone else.


You might want to consider coming up with your own list of criteria for what makes a good breeder that you can justify according to what's important to you rather than thinking that you need to strictly follow a set of guidelines given to you by a group of well meaning strangers on the internet.

You also might want to visit some of the kennels you have in mind to find out what they're all about first hand rather than dismissing them because Joe Internet doesn't like the breeder for whatever reason.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Root said:


> You might want to consider coming up with your own list of criteria for what makes a good breeder that you can justify according to what's important to you rather than thinking that you need to strictly follow a set of guidelines given to you by a group of well meaning strangers on the internet.
> 
> You also might want to visit some of the kennels you have in mind to find out what they're all about first hand rather than dismissing them because Joe Internet doesn't like the breeder for whatever reason.


This isn't an issue of "Oh those crazy people on the internet always force their opinions" because I would argue the advice on breeders one would get from this forum is not just an opinion. Are you going to legitimately argued that all the advice here should be dismissed because it was given to the OP on the internet? Or that a good ethical breeder is less important than satisfying your own needs? I certainly don't put the word out on BYBs vs legitmate breeders because it makes me more healthy. It certainly doesn't make the dogs they produce more healthy. And I certainly wouldn't need to visit any aforementioned kennels to know they aren't good. They make it clear with their own websites.


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> This isn't an issue of "Oh those crazy people on the internet always force their opinions" because I would argue the advice on breeders one would get from this forum is not just an opinion.


I think the advice given on breeders has generally been good advice. Actually, if I were to advise someone on that topic I'd probably give a succinct response. Something like "Hey, you might want to check this thread in the General Dog Forum: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/7077-finding-good-dog-breeder.html



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Are you going to legitimately argued that all the advice here should be dismissed because it was given to the OP on the internet? Or that a good ethical breeder is less important than satisfying your own needs?


That wasn't my intention at all. What makes a good breeder isn't necessarily a black and white issue. My only agenda is getting the pup that I want and that could mean having to make compromises (that I find acceptable) because of the group of breeders available to me in the area that I live in. Or it could mean that I simply don't care about certain criteria that another poster thinks is important. 




ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I certainly don't put the word out on BYBs vs legitmate breeders because it makes me more healthy. It certainly doesn't make the dogs they produce more healthy. And I certainly wouldn't need to visit any aforementioned kennels to know they aren't good. They make it clear with their own websites.


Yes, that's your opinion. I respect what works for you.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

The OP isn't living on a rock floating in the middle of the ocean with one choice of breeder. Dog, I hope I'm alive to see the day where it is unacceptable to compromise on health testing. If one is not interested in any of that great stuff you can get from a great breeder, then the shelters are full of prospects.


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## Root (Apr 10, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> The OP isn't living on a rock floating in the middle of the ocean with one choice of breeder. Dog, I hope I'm alive to see the day where it is unacceptable to compromise on health testing. If one is not interested in any of that great stuff you can get from a great breeder, then the shelters are full of prospects.


I probably wouldn't unless I really trusted the breeder's experience and reputation within the community. And I probably wouldn't if their kennel was less than an excellent facility. There's obviously value in knowing with absolute certainty that your pup will not develop a list of genetic defects. I'm comfortable compromising on being less than absolutely certain but nonetheless confident because of the reasons I mentioned above... if that were the best choice I could make out of the pool of breeders available to me locally.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Root said:


> You might want to consider coming up with your own list of criteria for what makes a good breeder that you can justify according to what's important to you rather than thinking that you need to strictly follow a set of guidelines given to you by a group of well meaning strangers on the internet.
> 
> You also might want to visit some of the kennels you have in mind to find out what they're all about first hand rather than dismissing them because Joe Internet doesn't like the breeder for whatever reason.


Good advise here.



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> The OP isn't living on a rock floating in the middle of the ocean with one choice of breeder. Dog, I hope I'm alive to see the day where it is unacceptable to compromise on health testing. If one is not interested in any of that great stuff you can get from a great breeder, then the shelters are full of prospects.


The OP IS living in Alberta, where we don't have didley squat for breeders that might in any way pass the criteria offered by the panel here, nor can the shelters supply anywhere near what the demand is for small dogs as we do not have what anyone can call a dog overpopulation problem (and I don't believe that overpopulation is to be blamed for shelter killings in the rest of North America anyway). 

Between the two sources - shelters and club affiliated breeders - we still remain with an extreme shortage in regards to small dog demand in this province.

The OPs choices, indeed, are VERY limited and she is, I'm sure, feeling between a rock and a hard place when attempting to find a small breed pup or adult, as many are here. Some posts show an incredibly immature lack of understanding that all places are not the same as their own!

-----------------------------
To elaborate for those who care to read, our two large city shelter systems do not euthanize healthy and adoptable . . . and yes it is still a struggle to place the larger and rambunctious teenage dogs but our systems IMPORT small dogs into rescue here en masse. Why? Because THEY SAY they need to offset the burgeoning puppymill industry here.

http://www.edmontonhumanesociety.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=224&Itemid=20

http://edmonton.ctv.ca/servlet/an/l...dm_jetplane_100212/20100212/?hub=EdmontonHome

_"The California Canine Cuties Animal Transfer Program has now officially become a regular operation to save dogs' lives. The program is an Edmonton Humane Society initiative to help put a dent in the puppy and broker industry."​_​
In the City of Calgary, in 2008, not even 1200 dogs came available for adoption through the Calgary pound, and the Humane Society. Approximately 9800 dogs were needed just to replace those that died of old age in the city that year – to cover attrition.

In the City of Edmonton, in 2008, 2312 dogs came available for adoption through the Edmonton pound and the Humane Society. As well approx. 9800 dogs were needed just to replace those in the city that died of old age that year. 

The difference is an approximate 16,000 dog shortage to demand which is why, right now the commercial breeders (especially of small dogs) are the ones benefiting.​
------------------------------

For the OP, please do not support any of the many commercial breeders we have in this province. If you pay attention the California Cuties program is bringing in small dogs many times throughout the year now. 

There are also some decent small time and small scale breeders here (of both pure and mixed) who do understand what health screening is about. They are few and far between and often sport years long waiting lists, so you need patience and most often the luck of knowing them through activities you do.

Off the CanKC site, there is ONE Chihuahua breeder in Edmonton. At first glance she looks pretty good (her CERF on OFA is sparse but she does some and she might just be remiss in updating OFA). To be clear, I'd never, ever recommend a breeder without visiting them first. She can be found at this link. I'm sure that others could be found as well, but this one would be considered in the highest calibre range (according to criteria spelled out prior on this thread, not by mine though). 

(Edited:I don't like the close breedings she's done (ie: *uncle/niece & half sibling pairings*) on already inbred foundation stock, but I recognize it is a personal choice that I avoid breeders who do this. I feel that you have better chance with a mixbreed from unhealth tested stock than you do with lines bred as close as hers, not that I'd recommend purchasing a pup from either. If contacted she might be able to refer a smaller scale breeder who isn't as inclined to keeping lines tight. http://www.picassochis.com/sassyped.htm Good luck, the more I look the more incensed I get as those that are club affiliated here and making tests results publically available are inbreeding. Those that aren't, and that are breeding on a small scale - or rarely - are often better breeders in my eyes, but harder to find unless you are already involved in a dog activity with them.)

http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/toys/chis_breeders.htm

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, patellas are done by vets, and many breeders (the vast majority of even the exhibition toy dog breeders) do not pay the fee to submit to OFA). CERF matters most when it is done on ancestral dogs kept - over 5. If the young breeding dogs are CERFd, but the grandparents are not at an older age, very little has been gained through the process. Keep in mind that experience and reputation and the ongoing buyer/breeder relationship mean much, much more than seeing a bunch of recorded CERF ratings on dogs, who are then placed into retirement homes before they can be tested at an older age.

Even the Chihuahua breeder - with top Canadian champions - linked to above recorded with OFA only after she was well established. She is playing catch up so the paperwork looks good (nothing wrong with that). Her test dates are years after many of her breedings and her patellas and hearts were checked by a practitioner.

Raised as a horse rider I can say I don't think a Chihuahua is a good fit for what you want - but then I couldn't imagine a dog riding ON the horse regularly. We had a Rat Terrier mix, of 16 pounds, that did very well keeping up with the horses though for 11 of her 14 years. 

SOB


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Min Pins and Manchesters look like first cousins to me. From what I've read, Manchester Terriers (standard size) went into the Doberman soup. I could see where Manchesters contributed to the Dobe's look, and it's extra tanginess.


 
Manchesters contributed to the Min Pin, the Dobe and of course the Toy Manchester. The Dobe was bred up with Rott and Greyhound (for speed and to keep the head refined), the Min pin down with (I believe) Chihuahua. 

As far as keeping the dog well mannered, that will take training and socialization you'll also need to teach the little stinker to stay clear of the horses if you plan to excercise it while riding. I'd also suggest you look at the Italian Greyhound as I think it would work well with the horses.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I don't know if you've come across these links before. They are for Alberta Dog Breeders. I know, Alberta is HUGE and you are looking within a couple hours, so most of these have to be sorted through, but its a start.

Please be very careful. As you can read in my above post EVERY breeder has to be scrutinized carefully. YOUR criteria are what are important. Especially important to me when I purchased was that a breeder was willing to back their pups for life, and wanted a continuing relationship with me and the pup they produced. 

http://www.canadogs.com/Prov_AB.htm

http://bc.canuckdogs.com/index.php?...egionKey=e4c2fb70-0b66-11df-b8b7-8ac0277f09ae

http://plentyofpuppies.com/puppiesinAlberta.html

SOB


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I live on Prince Edward Island. We have a surprising amount of good dog breeders considering our population, but of course some rarer breeds aren't being responsibly bred anywhere around here. That doesn't mean people seeking those breeds should take whatever they can get! It's not ideal, but you could look into breeders who will ship a pup to you from another province. I don't see a problem with having a dog shipped to you as long as the breeder hits all the proper marks re: health and genetic testing, multi-year health guarantees, showing/competing with their dogs, etc. It would also be a great idea to ask for references -- talk to people who were able to visit the breeder in person when buying their dog and find out what the facilities were like.

My friend actually bought a minpin a few months ago from a great breeder in Ontario. She'll ship a pup to almost anywhere in Canada for about $200-$230, including the cost of the crate. Her pet pups run about $800, which I realize is higher than you wanted, but it's no $1500. She provides all new owners with a five-year health guarantee and tests all of her breeding dogs for patellar luxation (you can search them in the OFA database), MPS VI, Legg-Calve-Perthes, and thyroid (just in case -- minpins aren't ranked for thyroid disease). They're also CERF'd. She also sometimes adopts out older dogs for little more than the cost of a spay/neuter. Her dogs are sound and beautiful (she has lots of champions), and have great temperaments, and they're not crazy expensive. You _can_ find more breeders like her, I'm sure of it. Ask around in the minpin community; find out about breeders who don't live near you but will ship. Often it only adds a couple hundred to the price.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Crantastic, what I don't think many understand on this thread is that some of us have different criteria we have decided are important and which constitute a 'good dog breeder'. One person's list is not anothers. I had to post cuz I looked at the linked breeder's site and shuddered. You thought she was great enough to link to. That demonstrates how differently people can think.

1: I would not buy from that breeder in Ontario. . . the fact that she ships is an automatic red flag as it means she is putting puppies in places that she cannot retrieve them from.

2. She breeds too many litters for MY liking. I don't care how much health testing you do, or how influential your lines are. If you breed so many that you can't back them for life, you breed too many.

3. She places adult dogs so that they can continue in their hobby. I draw a line there as well.

4. I haven't even looked at her pedigrees, but I bet they'd pee me off.

So as much as some here want to see titles etc., I would, personally, give that up in a second for a breeder that is close and that I can know. I would never recommend getting a pup from a breeder where I have not seen the environment they were raised in. I think it is nonsensical to do so.

Others will disagree with that as they prioritise on a list of criteria very differently. I would not try to decide, for you, if you should buy from this breeder or not. There is a HUGE GRAY AREA created by personal priorities and thoughts on ethics in these decisions.

What is happening on this thread is one politically correct way of breeding is being promoted despite the fact that that way of breeding has not been accepted as what the people, here, in Alberta have supported in the past . . . . therefore we do not have many breeders here like that. We do have some that understand health testing and breeding good dogs . . . just not necessarily purebred dogs or show dogs.

That should tell some people something, and it is not that we are backward. It IS that the culture here is different (and in many other Canadian areas). Many here have never embraced the purebreeding showdog world (that eminates out of Europe BTW and is their tradition and not ours). Many don't see a reason to, as what we have here works quite fine (notice our rescues are coping here, as opposed to the situation in many other places). There is nothing more wrong about the haphazard breeding chaos that has kept dogs going here for centuries, than there is wrong with the purebred dog world as it has evolved elsewhere, unless of course your perspective is that you MUST HAVE a purebred dog of some breed and are having trouble getting one.

I personally want the show dog world to buck up or go away . . . as I have seen as much harm come from it as good, especially in the dept. of the way dogs are promoted by phenotypical qualities. The idea of groups co-operating towards a common breeding goal (as in clubs) has both benefits and draw backs. The sheer VOLUME of pups produced, with castoffs sent to pet homes, to maintain breeds at the level of competitive perfection that some want, is NOT, in my mind, justifiable for the benefits gleaned. I therefore do not behold the breeders that work within it with any special awe and none of the criteria that pushes 'buy from the show world" tops my list. It is a criteria developed to promote an easy sell for those cast-offs and therefore to self promote the system and someone else's hobby. Some of us aren't buying in.

SOB


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> I personally want the show dog world to buck up or go away . . . as I have seen as much harm come from it as good, especially in the dept. of the way dogs are promoted by phenotypical qualities. The idea of groups co-operating towards a common breeding goal (as in clubs) has both benefits and draw backs. The sheer VOLUME of pups produced, with castoffs sent to pet homes, to maintain breeds at the level of competitive perfection that some want, is NOT, in my mind, justifiable for the benefits gleaned. I therefore do not behold the breeders that work within it with any special awe and none of the criteria that pushes 'buy from the show world" tops my list. It is a criteria developed to promote an easy sell for those cast-offs and therefore to self promote the system and someone else's hobby. Some of us aren't buying in.


Wow, that's a great paragraph. I know that any breeder I would buy from would be considered a BYB by many. I don't care one bit about showing. I'm very close to believing that showing is actually harmful to dogs in general (if I learn anything more about it, I'll probably cross that line), but at this point I'm just neutral...it's a nice hobby for those who have the time, money, and temperment for it. I want a breeder that actually cares about their dogs, AND about dogs in general. I can't say I've seen that in the show breeders I've known (admittedly, not very many). But...yeah.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> The OP IS living in Alberta, where we don't have didley squat for breeders that might in any way pass the criteria offered by the panel here, nor can the shelters supply anywhere near what the demand is for small dogs as we do not have what anyone can call a dog overpopulation problem (and I don't believe that overpopulation is to be blamed for shelter killings in the rest of North America anyway).
> 
> Between the two sources - shelters and club affiliated breeders - we still remain with an extreme shortage in regards to small dog demand in this province.
> 
> The OPs choices, indeed, are VERY limited and she is, I'm sure, feeling between a rock and a hard place when attempting to find a small breed pup or adult, as many are here. Some posts show an incredibly immature lack of understanding that all places are not the same as their own!


This doesn't change any thing I have said for me. While I'm still certain Alberta is not a rock in the middle of the ocean, I believe I stated many times about saving and making arrangements to get the dog you are looking for. You've stated how difficult it is to find a dog there, yet posted several ways to find one. This is also a message board. Ask for advice- results may vary.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Wow, that's a great paragraph. I know that any breeder I would buy from would be considered a BYB by many. I don't care one bit about showing. I'm very close to believing that showing is actually harmful to dogs in general (if I learn anything more about it, I'll probably cross that line), but at this point I'm just neutral...it's a nice hobby for those who have the time, money, and temperment for it. I want a breeder that actually cares about their dogs, AND about dogs in general. I can't say I've seen that in the show breeders I've known (admittedly, not very many). But...yeah.


I used to be very hardcore about believing that show breeders were the ONLY breeders who should breed, back in the day, but now as I've learned more and more about dogs and breeds (and the show world), I've become a lot more broadminded about things. I don't think it's as black and white as some folks paint it to be.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

*I personally want the show dog world to buck up or go away . . . as I have seen as much harm come from it as good, especially in the dept. of the way dogs are promoted by phenotypical qualities. The idea of groups co-operating towards a common breeding goal (as in clubs) has both benefits and draw backs. The sheer VOLUME of pups produced, with castoffs sent to pet homes, to maintain breeds at the level of competitive perfection that some want, is NOT, in my mind, justifiable for the benefits gleaned. I therefore do not behold the breeders that work within it with any special awe and none of the criteria that pushes 'buy from the show world" tops my list. It is a criteria developed to promote an easy sell for those cast-offs and therefore to self promote the system and someone else's hobby. Some of us aren't buying in.*

I know a handful of people who are so ridiculously smitten by pedigree and championship titles they could really care less about anything else when selecting a breeder. One person I know has had several dogs from the same breeder. Their puppys' temperaments have absolutely sucked, into adulthood. Sharp, nervy, skittish, etc. But who cares, right? The parents had lots of pretty ribbons!!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Wow, that's a great paragraph. I know that any breeder I would buy from would be considered a BYB by many. I don't care one bit about showing. I'm very close to believing that showing is actually harmful to dogs in general (if I learn anything more about it, I'll probably cross that line), but at this point I'm just neutral...it's a nice hobby for those who have the time, money, and temperment for it. I want a breeder that actually cares about their dogs, AND about dogs in general. I can't say I've seen that in the show breeders I've known (admittedly, not very many). But...yeah.


I don't know. 

I'm not calling anyone wrong, but the idea that dog showing is the reason why dogs are being poorly bred? I.e. if dog showing stopped tomorrow - immediately, we'd see less poorly bred dogs?

That seems unlikely to me, but I might be the sucker at the table here. 

I think there's more at work than just dog shows existing?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I think there's more at work than just dog shows existing?


It's mainly the fact that the purebred dog culture still exists in a strictly-closed registry system almost universally, when every other pet/domestic animal breeding culture has a much more flexible (and healthy) attitude towards the concept of 'purebred' and genetic health. Sure, the pressure to conform to extreme 'type' features to win ribbons causes many health problems too, but you combine that with the dangerously low genetic diversity of a lot of breeds (many who have been in closed registries for nearly 130 years now) and it just compounds the problem. Most of the dog show world enshrines and protects the closed registry, which is why people are beginning to criticize it more lately. The cracks appearing in the system are getting more and more obvious.

It was a big eye-opener for me when I started researching how the CFA and cat breeders handle their breeds, personally. Pretty much every cat breed has a list of 'approved' outcrosses that can be done with the offspring still being registerable. Regular outcrossing to other breeds is actually encouraged, in order to keep the breed's COI low. It's like a whole 'nother world over there, in the cat fancy.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I don't know.
> 
> I'm not calling anyone wrong, but the idea that dog showing is the reason why dogs are being poorly bred? I.e. if dog showing stopped tomorrow - immediately, we'd see less poorly bred dogs?
> 
> ...


My take is showing dogs should be the icing on the cake for a temperamentally and physically sound dog, basically proof that the dog can move like it should and conforms to what X breed should look and act like. I'm not anti-conformation shows, I actually enjoy a lot of them. MY beef is with people who have unstable dogs with unsound crappy temperaments that look good, and therefore win shows and get crowned Conformation Champion. Some use that Ch. as a reason to breed, no matter how unsound, unhealthy, or downright nasty their dog is.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I'll give the majority of show breeders credit for sincerely desiring the improvement of their breeds. Doing so within the imposed limits of closed registries is an exercise in the law of diminishing returns. Over time, a closed registry decreases genetic diversity. Revisiting the definition or "purebred" would be helpful.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I'll give the majority of show breeders credit for sincerely desiring the improvement of their breeds. Doing so within the imposed limits of closed registries is an exercise in the law of diminishing returns. Over time, a closed registry decreases genetic diversity. Revisiting the definition or "purebred" would be helpful.


Oh yes, I admire many show breeders immensely, I think they are doing the very best they can for their dogs out of a true love for their breeds. But you are spot on about diminishing returns.


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