# Breed help! Overwhelmed!



## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Hey

We are getting an emotional support dog at the recommendation of my psychiatrist. (Suffer from some serious mental illness')

Here en-lies my problem. My mother and I have agreed we need to get a toy breed, because on top of my psychological issues, I have a rare physiological disorder which makes my back very weak. So the smaller the better.

I originally wanted a chihuahua, but mum thinks they look like 'bloodsuckers' so they're out.

Other options I'm looking at are:

Toy Poodle
Pomeranian
Yorkshire Terrier

If anyone owns these breeds can you tell me the pro/cons of them?


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## Shannie (Jul 23, 2010)

I would go with a Yorkie or a Pomeranian simply because that is my personal preference. Pomeranians have lower lower maintenance coats because they don't need to be cut (keep in mind that they DO have to be brushed though). Poodles are lower shedding in comparison to the others. Yorkshire terriers are a lot more 'bouncy' and active than the other breeds. That's all i've got. Good luck with your choice.

P.S. The best way to make this decision would be to visit a dog of each breed in person and see which one you like more. Also do internet research on their characteristics/temperaments.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Shannie said:


> I would go with a Yorkie or a Pomeranian simply because that is my personal preference. Pomeranians have lower lower maintenance coats because they don't need to be cut (keep in mind that they DO have to be brushed though). Poodles are lower shedding in comparison to the others. Yorkshire terriers are a lot more 'bouncy' and active than the other breeds. That's all i've got. Good luck with your choice.
> 
> P.S. The best way to make this decision would be to visit a dog of each breed in person and see which one you like more. Also do internet research on their characteristics/temperaments.


I have met some of each dog but it's so darn confusing! I cannot seem to spend enough time with the dog to get to know the personality...It keeps coming down to cuteness which is not what I'm interested in.


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## Shannie (Jul 23, 2010)

Well if you like them all equally you could then base your decision upon which one will be coming from the highest quality breeder. It's always good to support the good breeder.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Yeah I have contacted a few breeders from DogzOnline with comprehensive questions. I chose the breeders with the most champions in their lines even though I only want a pet. I figure temperament has to be fantastic to gain all those titles.

Sadly no one has contacted me back just yet.


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## Shannie (Jul 23, 2010)

Good thinking. How long has it been since you contacted them?


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

I contacted a few last night and some two weeks ago.


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## patriciap (Jul 30, 2010)

Have you considered a Shih Tzu? They do have to be brushed and will require grooming, but their temperment is pretty even (not too bouncy or needy) and they're pretty sturdy, unlike other small breeds. Remember that dog breeds tend to have tendencies, but each dog has their own personality and requires good consistent training/behavior from their owner to turn out well behaved. Also, you may want to consider getting an older dog - 6 months to a year old, because puppies younger than that are still in the prime of development and will require a LOT of effort and attention on your part. I can't emphasize how much work puppies are. For your needs, I'd really recommend a puppy who's around a year old and already trained.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd have some serious doubts about any breeder that advertises on a place like DogzOnline. Just because a breeder has some champions in their lines doesn't mean they're good responsible breeders. Try the breed clubs. Although you'd still have to ask the breeder questions to make sure they're responsible, belonging to the breed club is a good sign. 

FWIW, I've fallen in love with every Toy Poodle I've ever met. They do need regular professional grooming, but at least you don't need to comb them constantly like you would with a Pom. 

I'd also recommend getting an older dog. A lot of good breeders will have older puppies or adult dogs available, for whatever reasons. Then you don't have to worry about the baby-dog poo-and-chew stage.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My question is, is this dog JUST for "use" at home?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I would suggest that once you pick a breed, you contact the national breed club and find a Code of Ethics breeder that not only shows, but also does the breed reccomended health testing and perhaps has some dogs that have done therapy work. CoE breeders are more likely to breed for proper temperament and will work with you to match you with a pup that will meet your needs. Also, remember that there are many other toy breeds out there, so you might look at some of the less known breeds as well.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

How about a pug, a havanese or a maltese? Pugs shed like crazy, but don't need professional grooming and tend to be sturdy and friendly.

I don't know about how it works in Australia, but in the US, I would recommend you visit a shelter and look for a young adult (8 months to 2 years) small dog that may be either purebred or a mixed breed. You can see which dog you "connect" with emotionally and you will be able to see them at their adult size and personality.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I have a toy poodle and I just adore him.

PROS
Very smart
Easy to train
Loves people

CONS
Very smart (yes, this is a con as well--he knows how to get into trouble)
Can be mouthy (but he's very gentle and we're working on it)

Grooming can be a con. He goes to the groomer every seven weeks. I don't love the expense, but it's better than trying to trim his hair myself. I also brush his hair every other day or so. Not really a con, just part of a routine.

Feel free to ask if you have any specific questions.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

One more complication: How about a Bichon Frise ? Kind of like a poodle, but they were used in circuses, because they are a little more sturdy. I think they are a little more eager to please than poodles, not sure if they are mouthy (haven't heard of it with them), but they do need to be groomed regularly, although it is possible to have them stand on the kitchen table while you groom them yourself.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

The only place besides home the dog will be allowed is a no pets housing place when I move out. Not a service dog. 

Thank you for all your suggestions! I'm not any closer to picking a breed but picking an older dog sounds like a fantastic idea. Would a three or four year old be deemed 'too old?' Sorry if that's a silly question!

Well the breed club for my state has the breeders from GogzOnline listed there. I doubt all breeders are reputable but on the dolforums lots of breeders have been booted off for crossbreeding, teacups etc etc.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Small breed dogs tend to live longer so age would not be a problem, I have also said before that it's not the breed it's the dog in the breed that counts. I think checking out dogs face to face and spending some time and see if something clicks if possible. I also have no idea about dog shelters/rescue etc in Austrailia but if I really wasn't sure of a breed I'd try the rescue program. It doesn't cost you anything but time and some traveling effort but picking something that's gonna live with you 10 years and up would be worth the effort. I'm just sayin'...


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

We have a wonderful rescue half an hour away I volunteer at, but they have no small breeds...Not sure why. I can have a rescue flown interstate but I'm not comfortable with the idea of getting a dog I haven't had a chance to bond with and know if s/he is right for me.

Rescue is an option though. I will keep my eyes open at the shelter and continue to contact breeders requesting home visits with different breeds until I find 'the one.'


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> We have a wonderful rescue half an hour away I volunteer at, but they have no small breeds...Not sure why. I can have a rescue flown interstate but I'm not comfortable with the idea of getting a dog I haven't had a chance to bond with and know if s/he is right for me.
> 
> Rescue is an option though. I will keep my eyes open at the shelter and continue to contact breeders requesting home visits with different breeds until I find 'the one.'


You could try shelters as well. What are you looking for in your support dog? Someone to cuddle with? Someone to train? Someone to get you out of the house?


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

waterbaby said:


> You could try shelters as well. What are you looking for in your support dog? Someone to cuddle with? Someone to train? Someone to get you out of the house?


Someone to get me out of the house, be protective and be able to alert when I'm going to have an anxiety attack/manic episode. Obviously the dog/bitch will go under extensive training. Most importantly though, I'd like to find a best friend in this dog.

If it wasn't for my back and muscle issues, I feel a pittie or a newfie would be perfect for my needs. Which is why picking a smaller breed is so darn hard!


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

If it's going to be trained extensively then your back and muscle problems shouldn't be an issue. Dogs shouldn't pull on a leash and a small dog isn't going to do much for protection.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Just throwing this out there, because of course I can't know your specific needs (and am not asking you to share anything you don't want to share) but you say toy breed because of your weak back....
is physical limitations your only reason for wanting a toy breed? If it is, then I would suggest considering larger breeds. Oddly, you may find a larger breed easy to deal with because they don't require as much bending and stooping to deal with; for example, I can put a collar and leash on my dog without leaning over more than a tiny bit, while to put a leash on a friend's toy poodle means bending down almost like tying my shoes. You can put a backpack on a larger dog and make him carry your water and his for walks etc (yes, I know small dogs can wear backpacks, but what they can carry is very limited). Just two examples; I know I find my large dog much less work in many ways than friends small dogs.

A larger dog may also make you feel more secure in terms of personal safety (I'm not saying get a guard dog, any medium-large breed is something of a deterrent in and of itself). 

Have you considered what day-to-day life would be like with any of the medium-large breeds at the rescue you volunteer at?

ETA: you posted more info while I was typing this-- actually a well-trained pit bull/staffy type dog might work very well (assuming you would not have issues with your housing situation owning one) as they are very affectionate dogs, medium sized and smart (some are drug sniffing dogs for example). Because many people assume them to be scary, they are also a great deterrent to someone up to no good. They are not guard dogs by any means though and shouldn't be thought of as a personal protection dog (which would need specific training and requires much commitment). they are sturdy and strong too.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Shell said:


> Just throwing this out there, because of course I can't know your specific needs (and am not asking you to share anything you don't want to share) but you say toy breed because of your weak back....
> is physical limitations your only reason for wanting a toy breed? If it is, then I would suggest considering larger breeds. Oddly, you may find a larger breed easy to deal with because they don't require as much bending and stooping to deal with; for example, I can put a collar and leash on my dog without leaning over more than a tiny bit, while to put a leash on a friend's toy poodle means bending down almost like tying my shoes. You can put a backpack on a larger dog and make him carry your water and his for walks etc (yes, I know small dogs can wear backpacks, but what they can carry is very limited). Just two examples; I know I find my large dog much less work in many ways than friends small dogs.
> 
> A larger dog may also make you feel more secure in terms of personal safety (I'm not saying get a guard dog, any medium-large breed is something of a deterrent in and of itself).
> ...


We are able to have bully dogs here, our next door neighbour has a beautiful amstaff mix.

This post was very useful to me, do you mind if I print it out to show to my mum? She's very concerned a larger dog will end up putting me in hospital (not from an attack, but from hurting myself.) She, like myself is very new to dogs and I think this might help her. Is that okay with you?


I am feeling very overwhelmed. I think I need to show mum this thread and then revisit you all with what my family wants.

P.S The reason I wanted a dog to make me feel safe is because I was brutally raped over many years. That's all I have to say about that.

Are larger dogs cat friendly? I have a cat who I am *extremely* close to.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Of course, please share.

Larger dogs can be as cat friendly OR unfriendly as a small dog. Most dogs can learn to be cat friendly if they are introduced young to cats and some can learn later too. My dog is NOT cat friendly but that is not because he is a large breed dog, it is in part because of his breed and in part because of a lack of socialization with cats (I adopted him as an adult). There have been a few posts on introducing cats and dogs, and of course there are other internet resources. For example, it is very helpful to have a "cat safe" area that the dog can't reach, like a bedroom that is gated off where the cat can jump the baby gate in the doorway but the dog cannot (and is trained not to). Many rescues will "cat test" a potential adoptive dog for you.

In theory, you could hurt yourself with any dog. You could trip over a small or large dog, trip over a leash, etc. Even a yorkie that suddenly pulls on the leash can cause someone to lose their balance if they are ill or unstable. But that is all training for the most part. Oh, and having a night-light if your dog likes to sleep in the doorway like mine  (I have to shuffle my feet everywhere at night....) It would be worth investing the money in a professional trainer to help you with your dog and to make things as safe AND useful as possible for you. As an anecdote, my large dog has saved my butt from landing on the ice a lot over the winter; he is sturdy enough that when I walk him, if I start to slip on the ice, he can balance me (I have no physical disabilities, but its still plenty easy to go plop on the ice).


I think a large dog will make you feel a lot safer than a small dog, although that should only be part of the reason for getting one and you have to think realistically that your dog is not really there to protect you and you are responsible for his safety. People DO notice larger dogs though and I often have someone cross the street to avoid my dog or step a few feet away as I pass. I have walked with him in bad neighborhoods and I definitely get more respect/more cautious looks than I would alone.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

People even avoid me and my dog - who basically looks like a chocolate lab - and who pretty much loves everyone as if she's a chocolate lab! I'm always surprised by it. I think you might find that a larger dog is what you're looking for as well, but definitely talk with your mum and put a lot of thought into it. If you end up going with a larger dog, I would again stress choosing an older, steadier dog rather than a puppy and lots and lots of training to reduce your chances of getting injured. And like Shell, I've often used my dog to steady myself while slipping. It can be nice to have a big solid body to help you stay upright!

Oh, and my dog is about 60 lbs and very good with my 2 cats who don't really like dogs and antagonize her constantly.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Are larger dogs cat friendly? I have a cat who I am extremely close to.


They are if you train them to be


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Okay I talked to mum. She's concerned that if we get a bigger dog they'll need more exercise. I know greyhounds are couch potatoes but mum thinks they're scary..We used to live near a bloke who raced them and they were quite nasty. *Sigh.*

Any information on larger breeds that don't need an insane amount of exercise (instantly excludes Kelpie, Koolie, BC etc lol)


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Most of the large heavy-bodied dogs don't need a lot of exercise. They just aren't built for it. Although all puppies need a fair amount of exercise, to keep everybody sane. And a lot of heavy-bodied dogs (Newfs, Saint Bernards, etc.) also have very heavy coats. So that's something you'd have to deal with.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> Most of the large heavy-bodied dogs don't need a lot of exercise. They just aren't built for it. Although all puppies need a fair amount of exercise, to keep everybody sane. And a lot of heavy-bodied dogs (Newfs, Saint Bernards, etc.) also have very heavy coats. So that's something you'd have to deal with.


Some do, some don't, Mastiffs and Danes are pretty low maintenence. You'd need to really be careful of the breeders though. They are large and the larger the dog the more health problems there are. I know a few people in Australia that are involved in Mastiffs and could probably get the info on reputable breeders and rescues.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Okay I talked to mum. She's concerned that if we get a bigger dog they'll need more exercise. I know greyhounds are couch potatoes but mum thinks they're scary..We used to live near a bloke who raced them and they were quite nasty. *Sigh.*
> 
> Any information on larger breeds that don't need an insane amount of exercise (instantly excludes Kelpie, Koolie, BC etc lol)


Some larger dogs require more exercise, some don't. My Chihuahua has more stamina than my friend's Siberian Husky. I think it has a lot to do with what they're accustomed to, as well.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Most of the large heavy-bodied dogs don't need a lot of exercise. They just aren't built for it. Although all puppies need a fair amount of exercise, to keep everybody sane. And a lot of heavy-bodied dogs (Newfs, Saint Bernards, etc.) also have very heavy coats. So that's something you'd have to deal with.


Sounds crazy but grooming is something I'm kinda looking forward to. I love brushing my cat and my rabbits (long haired) and my own hair! I'd enjoy clipping and such too if necessary. 

It's not the actual exercise that's the issue, it's more that until the dog is properly trained my mother is not going to let me leave the house. (Personal reasons.) We have a big yard so I could do exercise there until the dog is better trained.



cshellenberger said:


> Some do, some don't, Mastiffs and Danes are pretty low maintenence. You'd need to really be careful of the breeders though. They are large and the larger the dog the more health problems there are. I know a few people in Australia that are involved in Mastiffs and could probably get the info on reputable breeders and rescues.


English Mastiffs I find quite beautiful. I'll talk to mum, see what she thinks and would you mind if I PM you if mum thinks it's okay? Dane's are pretty gorgeous too.


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

What area are you in? I have some people on another group I'm on down there big into rescues, they may have some ideas too, if you'd like.


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## 1NZKiwi (Aug 5, 2010)

Hi There, I can't help with the other breeds and I know your dilema,
recently I became a new dog owner myself and did an enormous amount of research including health issues, age a dog lives to, how it will fit in the home etc. 
We ended up with a Smooth Coated Griffon Bruxelious (toy breed) and couldn't be more happier!! we have discovered they have a wonderful personality, they love to play games and sit on your knee, easy to train. Just a very happy friendly little dog. You can get them in either smooth coat or rough coat variety. And I have to say would definately be an option you should look into. They can take a heap of exercise but at the same time are happy to be couch potatoes with just a good daily play in the yard. They are very loyal and will be your shadow following you around the house. They have very expressive faces with the big eyes and get on easily with other pets.

go to the www.pedigree.co.nz website and read up on breed profiles that is an excellent website to give you a general background on different dogs.

They love to please you and I can't express how much pleasure our little guy has bought us.

Best of luck choosing your new addtion - it definatly pays to do the research and I recommend with any dog getting Pet Insurance!!

p.s Forgot to mention Griffons are not Nippy or Yappy dogs - they will do their job as a guard dog and bark when necessary but they don't commonly bark continually for no reason like other small breeds can often do.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

tskoffina said:


> What area are you in? I have some people on another group I'm on down there big into rescues, they may have some ideas too, if you'd like.


I'm in Australia 



1NZKiwi said:


> Hi There, I can't help with the other breeds and I know your dilema,
> recently I became a new dog owner myself and did an enormous amount of research including health issues, age a dog lives to, how it will fit in the home etc.
> We ended up with a Smooth Coated Griffon Bruxelious (toy breed) and couldn't be more happier!! we have discovered they have a wonderful personality, they love to play games and sit on your knee, easy to train. Just a very happy friendly little dog. You can get them in either smooth coat or rough coat variety. And I have to say would definately be an option you should look into. They can take a heap of exercise but at the same time are happy to be couch potatoes with just a good daily play in the yard. They are very loyal and will be your shadow following you around the house. They have very expressive faces with the big eyes and get on easily with other pets.
> 
> ...


Wow never heard of this dog...Googled them. They look like pugs kinda! Cuties.


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## 1NZKiwi (Aug 5, 2010)

The smooth Coats also known as Petit Brabancons - they do look sort of like pugs. I have put our Puppies photo up just now in profile so you can see.
We also think he looks like a little tiny boxer. This was him at 9 weeks old. The rough coats look a bit like Ewoks from the Star Wars movie.
If you have seen the movie - As Good as it Gets - starring Jack Nicholson - the dog in that is a Griffon!


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

He is soooo cute!


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> I'm in Australia


I figured that, but I didn't see the Victoria part on your post, and I know Australia is a large place lol. Let me know if you want me to pass you info on the person I know there, I'm not sure where she is exactly, but she seems to know people ALL over there. She does some kind of competition too, with her crested, so she travels...


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

tskoffina said:


> I figured that, but I didn't see the Victoria part on your post, and I know Australia is a large place lol. Let me know if you want me to pass you info on the person I know there, I'm not sure where she is exactly, but she seems to know people ALL over there. She does some kind of competition too, with her crested, so she travels...


Thanks! PM me?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Sounds crazy but grooming is something I'm kinda looking forward to. I love brushing my cat and my rabbits (long haired) and my own hair! I'd enjoy clipping and such too if necessary.
> 
> It's not the actual exercise that's the issue, it's more that until the dog is properly trained my mother is not going to let me leave the house. (Personal reasons.) We have a big yard so I could do exercise there until the dog is better trained.


Size of the dog really has little to do with how much exercise they need. Breed, age and individual personality are more important. Many dogs calm down a lot from the puppy stage after about age 2 1/2 or 3. I agree that Danes and Mastiffs are low-exercise breeds and I see mixes of those in our shelters that are good too.

But you will have a problem on the training here: no dog can be well trained in your backyard. Every dog, and especially puppies, needs a lot of socialization. Meeting new people, dogs, cats, hearing trucks, construction, road noise, shouts, music etc. Even if you train perfect obedience in your house or yard, if the dog is not socialized when you walk out your front door there will be a hundred things to overwhelm, interest and frighten him. It might work if you hired someone to take your dog on a walk daily and expose him to all these things, but even then, it is so much better if the owner is the one doing the socializing. Part of what tires a dog out on a walk is not the movement/walking but the sensory input- the "pee-mail" left from other dogs at every tree, the wildlife, meeting and greeting people etc. 
Dog parks, if you have them, can be a great way to tire out a dog without tiring out his owner. There are things to watch out for like misbehaving dogs (and owners!) and some dog parks end up with problems, but if you have a good group of dogs visiting regularly, it can work well too.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Shell said:


> Size of the dog really has little to do with how much exercise they need. Breed, age and individual personality are more important. Many dogs calm down a lot from the puppy stage after about age 2 1/2 or 3. I agree that Danes and Mastiffs are low-exercise breeds and I see mixes of those in our shelters that are good too.
> 
> But you will have a problem on the training here: no dog can be well trained in your backyard. Every dog, and especially puppies, needs a lot of socialization. Meeting new people, dogs, cats, hearing trucks, construction, road noise, shouts, music etc. Even if you train perfect obedience in your house or yard, if the dog is not socialized when you walk out your front door there will be a hundred things to overwhelm, interest and frighten him. It might work if you hired someone to take your dog on a walk daily and expose him to all these things, but even then, it is so much better if the owner is the one doing the socializing. Part of what tires a dog out on a walk is not the movement/walking but the sensory input- the "pee-mail" left from other dogs at every tree, the wildlife, meeting and greeting people etc.
> Dog parks, if you have them, can be a great way to tire out a dog without tiring out his owner. There are things to watch out for like misbehaving dogs (and owners!) and some dog parks end up with problems, but if you have a good group of dogs visiting regularly, it can work well too.


Something I should have mentioned. I live kilometers away from people. A trainer will be coming in to help new dog as well as puppy school, but other than our own pets and people who visit us I'm not sure how to socialize? Any advice?

I live really far away from even my neighbours.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If you get a puppy, once he has had all this shots, you can start taking him out and about. An adult dog like from a rescue, you can go places with right away.

Having visitors is good. Make sure to introduce him to children too.
I don't know how far any of these places are but try: city parks, beaches, university campus, outdoor cafes (sit with him and let him observe everything), puppy kindergarten, pet stores, farm stores, hardware stores/home improvement stores (some allow dogs), outdoor festivals (like car shows or horse shows). Really, any place that you can take him safely and legally (no inside restaurants for example) is beneficial.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Well we have a small street about a km away that has a green grocer, a milk bar, a florist etc...We have a park that isn't a dog park but they hold dog shows there. Am I allowed to take dog to a dog show to meet other dogs or is that bad idea?

If mum is going into town she would take puppy/dog and I, and we could just walk down Melbourne streets so s/he gets a feel for bikes people and kids...Other dogs I'm not so sure.

Our neighbour has a Amstaff mix they let roam but I don't think it's wise to introduce dog to a roamer.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Something I should have mentioned. I live kilometers away from people. A trainer will be coming in to help new dog as well as puppy school, but other than our own pets and people who visit us I'm not sure how to socialize? Any advice?
> 
> I live really far away from even my neighbours.


Well sometimes people might not live where they can do a proper job, with your background problems and past history, lifestyle etc. just do the best you can. When living in an urban area all puppy socialization problems are much, much easier but many dogs have been whelped and raised and socialized in rural areas only and survived. You just do the best you can.

If I have it correct, the main goal for this pup is to be a comfort, a friend, a family member 1st, so work on that. You have a trainer coming so if he is competent he will set up a program that can fit you. I'm gonna hope he can setup a training program that can match your physical shortcomings. A large guard dog sounds good but if it can't be handled a small alert dog with a taser or pepperspray or my very favorite a large caliber pistol fired rapidly at jerks.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Well sometimes people might not live where they can do a proper job, with your background problems and past history, lifestyle etc. just do the best you can. When living in an urban area all puppy socialization problems are much, much easier but many dogs have been whelped and raised and socialized in rural areas only and survived. You just do the best you can.
> 
> If I have it correct, the main goal for this pup is to be a comfort, a friend, a family member 1st, so work on that. You have a trainer coming so if he is competent he will set up a program that can fit you. I'm gonna hope he can setup a training program that can match your physical shortcomings. A large guard dog sounds good but if it can't be handled a small alert dog with a taser or pepperspray or my very favorite a large caliber pistol fired rapidly at jerks.


We only own guns for shooting down our sheep etc. 

Pepper spray is a good idea! Discussed with mum, she really wants a toy breed. Cannot even convince her for a medium breed. 

The trainer we're hoping to get is a wonderful trainer. He works kinda like Ceaser Milan, and will be coming three times a week along with puppy school.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Talk to your trainer about different breeds, he might even get you pictures or borrow examples of well-trained dogs. As far as socializing with your pets, you can socialize the dog, but you also have to socialize the cat (and rabbits, if they are uncaged). I'd recommend that you make an organized list in outline form of everthing that you need, as well as some things that you want. I don't recommend expecting a toy dog to protect you, but they can bark up a storm. Ask your trainer if he uses Positive methods ?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> We only own guns for shooting down our sheep etc.
> 
> Pepper spray is a good idea! Discussed with mum, she really wants a toy breed. Cannot even convince her for a medium breed.
> 
> The trainer we're hoping to get is a wonderful trainer. He works kinda like Ceaser Milan, and will be coming three times a week along with puppy school.


if you are training this dog to be a comfort animal or perform ANY service you do NOT want a Milan style trainer. See if you can find a trainer that uses operent conditioning instead try here 
http://www.iaabc.org/suchen/search_consultant.php

http://www.deltasocietyaustralia.com.au/cgc/cgc_victoria.htm

*Dog Trainers* Directory - OzDoggy for *Australian* Dogs

http://www.dogs4sale.com.au/Clubs_Organisations_Vic.htm


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> if you are training this dog to be a comfort animal or perform ANY service you do NOT want a Milan style trainer. See if you can find a trainer that uses operent conditioning instead try here
> http://www.iaabc.org/suchen/search_consultant.php
> 
> http://www.deltasocietyaustralia.com.au/cgc/cgc_victoria.htm
> ...


Before I check out the links, a few questions.

What is operant training?

Why is a Milan trainer bad?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Milan uses dominance based training, which can be harmful (alpha rolling, forcing fearful dogs into cuncomfortable situations) and are frankly outdated and pack theory which has been disproven/misunderstood.

Operent conditioning is based on Pavlovian Theory, it assocaites wanted behaviors with reward and unwanted behaviors with nothing. 

This is an example excercise based on OC. Desensitizing A Dog To Inanimate Objects Or Noises Rev Up/Cool Down The Bite Stops Here

Using OC you become leader by being the source of all good things and controlling the resource. Yes, dogs still need leadership and training should create a bond of trust, not force the animal into 'submission'.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Someone to get me out of the house, be protective and be able to alert when I'm going to have an anxiety attack/manic episode. Obviously the dog/bitch will go under extensive training. Most importantly though, I'd like to find a best friend in this dog.
> 
> If it wasn't for my back and muscle issues, I feel a pittie or a newfie would be perfect for my needs. Which is why picking a smaller breed is so darn hard!





AussieNerdQueen said:


> Okay I talked to mum. She's concerned that if we get a bigger dog they'll need more exercise.





AussieNerdQueen said:


> Discussed with mum, she really wants a toy breed.





> Sounds crazy but grooming is something I'm kinda looking forward to. I love brushing my cat and my rabbits (long haired) and my own hair! I'd enjoy clipping and such too if necessary.


So it sounds like your requirements are: small-bodied, low to medium-energy dog for companionship, some specialized training, and protection. And you don't mind or would even really enjoy grooming. I think you'll find you need to compromise a bit on either the size or the protection aspect although a small dog can certainly be a good alert dog.

That list makes me think: bichon frise, toy or miniature poodle, or perhaps a cavalier king charles spaniel There are pros and cons to all 3. And again, you're likely to find some lovely dogs in shelters in your area.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

A small dog can be a good watch dog but is a pretty weak deterrent. But other than that, your requirements are fairly simple since you are willing to groom and to get good training help. Some ideas- Coton De Tulear, Cocker Spaniel, Lhasa Apso, French Bulldog and Boston Terrier.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

When I say protection, I mean a dog that will actually do something if someone tries to jump me even if it's just a growl...It's more of a psychological thing on my part I guess. Basically I'd prefer a dog who didn't just happily think 'friend!' at everyone. My mate's bitsa dragging us happily towards a well known dangerous rottie that was charging at us comes to mind..

Size mum really wants a toy breed. We've been over it and she is convinced a bigger dog will hurt me. I guess I should just be grateful she's on board in so many other ways, though I wish I could educate her.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

An untrained large dog could unintentially hurt you by jumping on you or pulling on the leash. So unless you get an already trained large dog, I don't think it would be a good idea. The breed that comes to mind is a Mini Schnauzer. They're small protective dogs.


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## Noobcakes (Jul 23, 2010)

luvntzus said:


> An untrained large dog could unintentially hurt you by jumping on you or pulling on the leash. So unless you get an already trained large dog, I don't think it would be a good idea. The breed that comes to mind is a Mini Schnauzer. They're small protective dogs.


Thought the same. Mini Schnauzer will pretty much fit all your descriptions


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> When I say protection, I mean a dog that will actually do something if someone tries to jump me even if it's just a growl...It's more of a psychological thing on my part I guess. Basically I'd prefer a dog who didn't just happily think 'friend!' at everyone. My mate's bitsa dragging us happily towards a well known dangerous rottie that was charging at us comes to mind..


The problem with expecting a dog to DO something is to train them to recognize true danger as opposed to just everyday strangers. I have a naturally protective dog and I have worked hard to socialize and train him to not be too protective of me so that he doesn't feel the need to get between me and every kid that walks by etc. More important in my urban area than your rural one probably, but if you ever intend to take your dog out and about, it comes into play. It is a fine line because you run the risk of undersocializing and creating a dog that doesn't trust or welcome anyone but you which creates a real danger of someone getting bit. Can't leave a dog like that at a doggie daycare, kennel, or grooming facility either.

Here's a hypothetical-- dog is trained to growl (which a growl is a warning signal that comes before a potential bite) if someone grabs you. You are out in town one day and a woman grabs your arm. Should the dog protect you? She's no threat, she thought you were a friend when she saw you walking by from the back. Mistaken identity, happens sometimes. Or you dropped your wallet and she's just trying to hand it back. It takes A LOT of training for a dog to differentiate between these harmless scenarios and something worse. 

A happy medium for a lot of people is getting a naturally aloof dog. One that doesn't feel the need to get petted by every person he meets but doesn't really concern himself with them either. Kind of a vague disinterest that will keep him from running up to people or being too friendly. You can also train a lot of focus into a dog, so that he is focused on you and not being distracted and trying to play with other dogs or people.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

I don't mean to be a negative Nancy but I'm getting quite confused again.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Is there a specific issue that is confusing? Maybe myself or someone else can suggest some reading materials to give you more viewpoints by professional trainers and such.

One thing I suggest is reading up on personal protection dogs and the training that goes into it. There are some forum members with property guard dogs, but I can't think of anyone with a personal guard dog. A similar (but not the same) situation is a police dog; in terms of extent of training mostly and the liability that comes with training a dog to act in an aggressive manner.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

I'm confused about the whole protection thing. I guess I just assumed if a dog was well trained, went to puppy school, had a trainer and such, it would just come naturally to understand if something bad was happening. I'm sorry if I sound stupid, I'm really ignorant of these things.

Also i thought smaller dogs could be more aggressive than bigger dogs? I'm heaing people say they aren't but I thought they were so that's confusing me too.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Gotcha. Some dogs have more natural protection instinct than others, but like humans, they too can misread a situation or react to a perceived but not real threat. The problem is that in most areas, dogs that bite (except against true threats, as defined by law like in a situation where you could legally use a gun against someone) are often quarantined, restricted, and possibly put to sleep. And of course, there is the innocent person or other dog that is harmed also. 

Size and aggression really aren't connected; and you do NOT want an aggressive dog! Dog aggressive dogs ("DA dogs") have to be managed very carefully although they can still be very good companions. Human aggressive dogs are a major liability and should generally only be handled and homed by a professional trainer. No reputable breeder or shelter will place a human aggressive dog with a new dog owner and very few shelters will adopt out DA dogs at all (due to their liability in any future incident). 

On the whole, the breeds that were bred to be naturally protective tend to be larger breeds because they have more ability to stop a threat and do damage to someone. Some small breeds have good watch dog instincts though and will bark or growl an alert to you.


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

Small dogs (typically with disinterested or unknowing owners) aren't trained, and they may or may not seem vicious to people. It's the "poor baby" thing, where people feel bad making them do anything, and they're movable and can't do TOO much damage. Larger dogs are usually trained better, as they're harder to handle if they aren't. Even if a dog isn't trained to be protective, they usually are with someone they're bonded to, but something BAD, like you screaming, getting dragged away, etc. General things, low level badness isn't going to set off any dog unless it's trained to specifically react to it, or it reacts to EVERYTHING.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Shell said:


> Gotcha. Some dogs have more natural protection instinct than others, but like humans, they too can misread a situation or react to a perceived but not real threat. The problem is that in most areas, dogs that bite (except against true threats, as defined by law like in a situation where you could legally use a gun against someone) are often quarantined, restricted, and possibly put to sleep. And of course, there is the innocent person or other dog that is harmed also.
> 
> Size and aggression really aren't connected; and you do NOT want an aggressive dog! Dog aggressive dogs ("DA dogs") have to be managed very carefully although they can still be very good companions. Human aggressive dogs are a major liability and should generally only be handled and homed by a professional trainer. No reputable breeder or shelter will place a human aggressive dog with a new dog owner and very few shelters will adopt out DA dogs at all (due to their liability in any future incident).
> 
> On the whole, the breeds that were bred to be naturally protective tend to be larger breeds because they have more ability to stop a threat and do damage to someone. Some small breeds have good watch dog instincts though and will bark or growl an alert to you.


I don't want an aggressive dog but I would like a warning growl. Is that something I can train into any breed, even a little one?



tskoffina said:


> Small dogs (typically with disinterested or unknowing owners) aren't trained, and they may or may not seem vicious to people. It's the "poor baby" thing, where people feel bad making them do anything, and they're movable and can't do TOO much damage. Larger dogs are usually trained better, as they're harder to handle if they aren't. Even if a dog isn't trained to be protective, they usually are with someone they're bonded to, but something BAD, like you screaming, getting dragged away, etc. General things, low level badness isn't going to set off any dog unless it's trained to specifically react to it, or it reacts to EVERYTHING.


So the whole judge the deed not the breed applies to the littlies too? Like, owner's fault?


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

I would also recommend a mini schnauzer, although they can require a decent amount of exercise.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

Locke said:


> I would also recommend a mini schnauzer, although they can require a decent amount of exercise.


A mini schnauzer does sound pretty good - I didn't realize how small they were! The thing I'd worry about is the prey drive. With rabbits and a cat in the house, a schnauzer would need dedicated training on letting them be.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

i'm going to talk it over with mum but this is the conclusion I've come to.

Going to go to some small breed specific rescues (there's a few within 'road trip' distance) with mum, get to know some different breeds, see if one really speaks to me, then contact breeders.

I don't want to sound horrible, but I would really lke a dog from a breeder. Just a personal preference.


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## Noobcakes (Jul 23, 2010)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> i'm going to talk it over with mum but this is the conclusion I've come to.
> 
> Going to go to some small breed specific rescues (there's a few within 'road trip' distance) with mum, get to know some different breeds, see if one really speaks to me, then contact breeders.
> 
> I don't want to sound horrible, but I would really lke a dog from a breeder. Just a personal preference.


No worries. The thing with breeders is you can have a better certainty about all the dogs aspects.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Nothing wrong with a dog from a breeder so long as you do your research and choose a reputable breeder- there are a number of threads that can help you evaluate a breeder; for example, what health testing needs to be done. But if a specific dog really speaks to you when you are out looking at these rescues, then it is well worth considering seriously.


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> So the whole judge the deed not the breed applies to the littlies too? Like, owner's fault?


Yeah, last dog we had was always biting, and being nasty. My parents refused to train her, and I would get garbage from them if I tried to train her, and that's my experience. It's ALMOST never the dog, it's the owner or previous owner to blame.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

I really appreciate the wealth of information that's been presented! Has helped me a lot.

What are some good questions to ask a breeder?


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> I really appreciate the wealth of information that's been presented! Has helped me a lot.
> 
> What are some good questions to ask a breeder?


- Are they members of their breed club (good answer = yes)
- What health testing have they completed on their breeding dogs (good answer = more than a vet check)
- Do they actively show their dogs or work their dogs in other areas (obedience, agility, flyball, etc.) (good answer = yes to both)
- how many litters they have a year (good answer = 2 or less)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

-at what age do they first breed their dogs?
-how many litters does a bitch have in her lifetime?
-what their health guarantee is for genetic diseases?
-spay or neuter contracts for pet dogs (non-show/competition prospects that will not be bred)
-Why are they breeding?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Have you thought of a papillon? I know you said you generally weren't a fan but they're usually considered the most trainable of the toy breeds. They're great dogs, very velcro and the most handler sensitive dogs I've owned. They very much want to be with you and be 'working' with you. They are nicknamed the working toy dog for that reason... 

I am not much of a schnauzer person to be honest, although I've met a couple I liked.

ETA: Protection is usually trained. Most dogs won't jump in and bite if you're in danger without being trained and that's a big liability. And let's face it, a toy sized dog isn't going to run anyone off.

That said, my papillons are very very protective of me and very territorial. No one ever comes up to my place without me knowing. I would never expect them to do more than that. They are pretty hyper in general but many are very calm. Even my more active ones are cool to chill in the house all day.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Have you thought of a papillon? I know you said you generally weren't a fan but they're usually considered the most trainable of the toy breeds. They're great dogs, very velcro and the most handler sensitive dogs I've owned. They very much want to be with you and be 'working' with you. They are nicknamed the working toy dog for that reason...
> 
> I am not much of a schnauzer person to be honest, although I've met a couple I liked.


I've never even seen a schnauzer in real life. All the dogs I see are bitsas, GSD's, or bully mixes.

Well see your Papillion is very sweet, but the ones I see kinda put me off. I know looks aren't everything but they have to count for something. However, after I saw Mia and Batty, I did have a look through some breeders, they're quite sweet looking. I think it's when they do them up for shows I don't like the look.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> I've never even seen a schnauzer in real life. All the dogs I see are bitsas, GSD's, or bully mixes.
> 
> Well see your Papillion is very sweet, but the ones I see kinda put me off. I know looks aren't everything but they have to count for something. However, after I saw Mia and Batty, I did have a look through some breeders, they're quite sweet looking. I think it's when they do them up for shows I don't like the look.


What do you mean? Just curious. They're a wash and wear breed so they don't need much grooming at all (even at shows). If it's the ears, they come in a drop eared version as well, you know. ; )

We actually have 5 papillons here, lol.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Well I don't want to post the breeder I was actually looking at's website, but the hair on the ears looked kinda like it had been glued up to look like Doc from _Back to the Future_...I thought this is how they were supposed to look and I'm not fond of wire haired, or time traveling dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Well I don't want to post the breeder I was actually looking at's website, but the hair on the ears looked kinda like it had been glued up to look like Doc from _Back to the Future_...I thought this is how they were supposed to look and I'm not fond of wire haired, or time traveling dogs.


Wire hair?  lol I'm confused. They have smooth, silky hair. Not wirey hair.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Wire hair?  lol I'm confused. They have smooth, silky hair. Not wirey hair.


I know that now...That's just what those dogs looked like and I thought that's how they were supposed to look.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> I know that now...That's just what those dogs looked like and I thought that's how they were supposed to look.


Ok well... they should look like this:










I have never seen a papillon with wirey looking hair.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Second from the left is the cutest.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Second from the left is the cutest.


I'm kind of partial to them all, but Beau says 'thank you!'


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Oh shit a brick I didn't know they were your dogs! I'm so sorry!

I'm soo glad I edited the ruder thing I was going to say before I posted. 

I have a question about Papillions, do you need to trim their ear hair? I'd think you'd have to keep them fairly clean to avoid infection.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Oh shit a brick I didn't know they were your dogs! I'm so sorry!
> 
> I'm soo glad I edited the ruder thing I was going to say before I posted.
> 
> I have a question about Papillions, do you need to trim their ear hair? I'd think you'd have to keep them fairly clean to avoid infection.


Lmao, yes they're all mine. No, you don't trim their ear hair at all. People will frown on you if you do that. I've never heard of one having an ear infection before.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Why is it frowned upon?

And do you breed or just pets?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Why is it frowned upon?
> 
> And do you breed or just pets?


I don't breed, but have shown. 

Their ears are their trademarks so cutting the ear hair is just a 'no no'.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

I was only wondering for hygiene. Do you wash their ears lots? What are they like to groom? Double coated?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> I was only wondering for hygiene. Do you wash their ears lots? What are they like to groom? Double coated?


Nope, I don't actually clean their ears though I'm sure you could. I wash them every 2 or so weeks. They're single coated, but they shed some all around. The only thing you need to do is trim feet hair once a month or so.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

What about brushing?

And why trim feet?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> What about brushing?
> 
> And why trim feet?


They need brushing once or twice a week ideally. You trim feet on most long haired dogs because hair will grow between their foot pads.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Is it painful for them or just not nice?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Is it painful for them or just not nice?


It looks messy and can make it harder for them to get traction on slippery surfaces. But you'll need to do that on any longhaired breed.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Sorry for grillin ya!


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

My favorite breed group in toys is the 'terriers' but my favorite toy breed of all is the 'Miniature Pinscher', otherwise known as the 'King of the toys'. Very smart dogs, very attached to their family and especially their special person, protective as far as great warning dogs, and wonderfully sweet and playful with their people. 
They aren't typically outgoing with 'outsiders' but when well trained aren't pains to take around others. Those whom aren't trained tend to have the small dog syndrome someone else mentioned.
Our Lucy (Min Pin) was the first toy dog I'd ever owned and honestly, I never thought I would come to love her as much as I did. Wonderful dog. I've known and met many Min Pins now and have come to the conclusion that they are THE toy dog for me. 
I don't know if they interest you at all but with your list of wants I thought the breed sounded like a pretty good fit.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> My favorite breed group in toys is the 'terriers' but my favorite toy breed of all is the 'Miniature Pinscher', otherwise known as the 'King of the toys'. Very smart dogs, very attached to their family and especially their special person, protective as far as great warning dogs, and wonderfully sweet and playful with their people.
> They aren't typically outgoing with 'outsiders' but when well trained aren't pains to take around others. Those whom aren't trained tend to have the small dog syndrome someone else mentioned.
> Our Lucy (Min Pin) was the first toy dog I'd ever owned and honestly, I never thought I would come to love her as much as I did. Wonderful dog. I've known and met many Min Pins now and have come to the conclusion that they are THE toy dog for me.
> I don't know if they interest you at all but with your list of wants I thought the breed sounded like a pretty good fit.


I cannot thank you enough! This is a breed my mother and I can agree on! It's small enough for her and got all the qualities I wanted from a larger dog too! Looks like I could even do some dog sports with one! Thank you so so so so much!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

If you like Min Pins, you might also like Toy Manchesters, they are very similar and the TMT is just a bit larger. The Manchesters have been bred down to make Toy Manchesters, Min Pins and Up to make Dobermans.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Dobes? I _*know*_ this is an uneducated fear so can you please fill me in without judging my ignorance?

I'm terrified of dobes. The ones I've known have been incredibly aggressive and scary.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> And let's face it, a toy sized dog isn't going to run anyone off.


Generally true, but not always. 
http://www.canadogs.com/PurinaDachshund.htm


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Then they haven't been well trained. When trained and socailized proplerly they should be well mannered if aloof, Some are downright friendly. I literally pulled myself up and learned to walk with one. I'm not suggesting you get one (though they are wonderful gaurdians and extreamly loyal to their humans) I'm just saying that the Manchester was used in the development of the breed along with Greyhunds and Rottweilers.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

But if a min pin is a mini dobe, does that mean it will need all the training to make it unscary?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

This is my girl with my Pug









and with my Daughter


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Ohh those are beautiful photos!  Did you have to train her hard to get her that sweet?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Min pins are not mini dobes. Be careful though, we looked into min pins before paps and while they are very cute, they are also terrierish in many qualities. And they are very very active dogs. VERY active.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Oh.  Dang they matched so so well but due to my disability it's just not something we can negotiate on.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Ohh those are beautiful photos!  Did you have to train her hard to get her that sweet?


She was sweet to begin with, most are especailly with their humans. However yes, she's trained daily so she has good manners. She was neglected when I get her so she does have some issues, but nothing serious.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Really comforting to see a normal dobe. She's just beautiful.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Thank you.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Obviously not going to support a BYB by purchasing one of these babies but I think this Papillion is absolutely to die for.

http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Pets-...Number=TP003594731?BackToResult=true&AdOnTop= The mum/dad I mean, not the pups.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Obviously not going to support a BYB by purchasing one of these babies but I think this Papillion is absolutely to die for.
> 
> http://www.tradingpost.com.au/Pets-...Number=TP003594731?BackToResult=true&AdOnTop= The mum/dad I mean, not the pups.


If you scroll over the pictures (even the adult) it says Papillon/Chihuahua mix. Longhaired Chihuahuas look similar. I have one and he's the most loyal dog that I've evere known. Peanut would live in my lap if he could and he TRIES. He's on my lap right now as I type this. Chihuahuas are extremely loyal and also protective. You're probably aware of the shorthaired variety. Contrary to what some people who have bad experiences with toy dogs will say, they are NOT vicious. They are naturally protective, so you have to socialize and train them. I think I read something about shedding in the beginnning of your posts. The longhaired variety sheds less than the shorthaired one. Here's a website about toy breeds that gives basic information: http://www.toybreeds.com/

Edited to add that your best choice may be a Toy Poodle. They don't shed, they don't have a high prey drive, they are very loyal, very intelligent, easy to train, almost human. I think they would be an awesome emotional support dog from the toy group. They don't have to have poofy hair either- you just have them shaved down every 6 weeks or so.

http://www.toybreeds.com/ToyPoodle.htm


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

luvntzus said:


> If you scroll over the pictures (even the adult) it says Papillon/Chihuahua mix. Longhaired Chihuahuas look similar. I have one and he's the most loyal dog that I've evere known. Peanut would live in my lap if he could and he TRIES. He's on my lap right now as I type this. Chihuahuas are extremely loyal and also protective. You're probably aware of the shorthaired variety. Contrary to what some people who have bad experiences with toy dogs will say, they are NOT vicious. They are naturally protective, so you have to socialize and train them. I think I read something about shedding in the beginnning of your posts. The longhaired variety sheds less than the shorthaired one. Here's a website about toy breeds that gives basic information: http://www.toybreeds.com/


I think they greatly over estimate how fragile a papillon is. I don't understand that on this site. They talk about paps being fragile but not chihuahuas. Paps are on average twice as big as a chi.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Chihuahua was my first choice but mum said no way, no how, not happening.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Laurelin- Yeah, it's not the best site, but gives a basic overview of the toy breeds. Chihuahuas are definitely fragile. Mine almost broke its leg jumping off the couch as a 4 month old puppy. 

AussieNerdQueen- I guess we're on the same wavelength with the Chihuahua. lol Out of curiousity, why doesn't your mom want one? If you scroll up above your last post, I mentioned Toy Poodles and gave some info. Are they a possibility?


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Toy poodles are a definite possibility. I quite like them too.  Grooming and training would be a lot of fun.

Because mum thinks they look like 'bloodsuckers' *facepalm. She says she couldn't sleep knowing 'one of those' was in the house 'watching and waiting.' *Doublefacepalm

Your shih tzu is STUNNING! He or she? WOW so pretty!!


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Thank you so much! The one in my avatar is a female, Honey Bun, the one in my signature is a male Gingerbread and this Saturday I'm getting another female. Here's the only pic I have of her so far:










Here's a picture of my bloodsucking Chihuahua. lol


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Bloody oath I want your pups! Especially gingerbread and bloodsucker lol. She's too cute.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Thank you.  Gingerbread is my soulmate dog. I wish I had pictures of Peanut (the Chihuahua) snuggling with me and my husband. He is a dog that cannot get enough love- even 24-7 which is pretty much what he gets since I don't work. lol He sleeps under the covers and night, curled up with me. Here's a more recent picture of Peanut:


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Ohh wow. I really wish mum would allow me to get a chihuahua.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

It's too bad, because I think they would be great for you. But Toy Poodles are awesome too and I think that would be a great choice. Here's one that I think is really cute:


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

That is an adorable cut. I may be able to work on her with the chihuahua...Find one that has more of a deer head than an apple dome maybe? Even though I prefer the rounder skull.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Don't knock out a Min Pin yet. Yes to a degree they are active athletic little dogs. Mine did need exercise but the thing is with a small dog you don't need to have a BIG yard. They can and will run and play in a house or in a backyard. Also it again all comes down to the individual dog. I've known quite a few that were literally couch potatoes.
The thing I noticed most about mine was that she needed mental stimulation moreso than physical exercise although she got both in my home. She was a VERY quick learner and had quite the repertoire of tricks she could do. This is all coming from a mainly GSD owner over the years and I say she she was extremely intelligent, hardy, and quick to catch on to what I wanted and also retained this til the day she passed away.
She loved to play ball and to chase laser lights which was an easy out for some energy draining activities. Her tricks included normal obedience: sit, stay, down, heel, sit up, over, under, 'say your prayers', play dead, 'lucy go round'(which was essentially spinning in circles both ways- say left she'd spin left, right and she'd spin right. She was a blast at agility courses and the dog park. 
They are quick, agile, intelligent, protective, loving, cuddly... All in all IMO a great little dog whom seems big trapped in a small package.

Also a suggestion would be to check out a rescue/shelter for an older one. That way you can check out it's adult temperment and see how well it would fit.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

MooMoosMommy said:


> Don't knock out a Min Pin yet. Yes to a degree they are active athletic little dogs. Mine did need exercise but the thing is with a small dog you don't need to have a BIG yard. They can and will run and play in a house or in a backyard. Also it again all comes down to the individual dog. I've known quite a few that were literally couch potatoes.
> The thing I noticed most about mine was that she needed mental stimulation moreso than physical exercise although she got both in my home. She was a VERY quick learner and had quite the repertoire of tricks she could do. This is all coming from a mainly GSD owner over the years and I say she she was extremely intelligent, hardy, and quick to catch on to what I wanted and also retained this til the day she passed away.
> She loved to play ball and to chase laser lights which was an easy out for some energy draining activities. Her tricks included normal obedience: sit, stay, down, heel, sit up, over, under, 'say your prayers', play dead, 'lucy go round'(which was essentially spinning in circles both ways- say left she'd spin left, right and she'd spin right. She was a blast at agility courses and the dog park.
> They are quick, agile, intelligent, protective, loving, cuddly... All in all IMO a great little dog whom seems big trapped in a small package.
> ...


Mental stimulation sounds fun! Is that like teaching tricks, giving toys that they have to figure out so to speak?


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Bloody oath I want your pups! Especially gingerbread and bloodsucker lol. She's too cute.


Haha! I think whatever breed you end up with, you should name him/her Bloodsucker. lol

Has your mom checked out the long-haired chis (and does she think they look evil?) or do you just prefer the short-haired variety?


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

All of em. She thinks the ones with long fur are worse because 'they're pretending to be rats' *sigh. Parents= embarrassing lol.

I've actually thought that's be a cool idea too!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Generally true, but not always.
> http://www.canadogs.com/PurinaDachshund.htm


Interesting  as I was reading through this thread, I kept thinking .. "Standard Smooth Dachshund"

Small (ish)
Loyal to the Nth degree !
Capable of uhhhm, moderate protection
Intelligent
trainable (ooooo I hear the jeers )
very Sturdy and durable
Excercise needs are minimal
grooming needs are minimal

... also comes in miniature, 

and Longhaired variety if you actually WANT  to do some grooming


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Mental stimulation sounds fun! Is that like teaching tricks, giving toys that they have to figure out so to speak?


Yes. Mine loved getting something 'right'. Whether it be training, seek and find, and puzzle toys like you mentioned above. Her joy would show clearly when she figured out what was being asked of her. She would jump and twist while wearing the biggest smile for her little self.
I have a Yorkie/Poodle cross now whom is very smart too but isn't as estatic/enthusiastic as my Min Pin was when she learns. She is a great little dog and I adore her too. She does have longer hair when it's grown out and has many of the same traits as my Min Pin had with their terrier attitudes. She is also a good lil watch dog but I have to say her bark isn't as intense as my Min Pins was when she knew something wasn't quite right. 
All in all if after my Yorkie has passed I will probably just have big dogs with a Min Pin on the side as my toy dog with BIG personality. 

And although I love the breed I do know they aren't for everyone. If you want a dog whom loves everyone in the world, they probably aren't for you. They are a dog whom always seem to prefer their owner over anyone else in the world. Love to be near you, with you, under the covers sleeping. In cold weather that single coat isn't much use so a sweater or two are needed to help hold in body heat. 
My Min Pin was always the first to sound the alarm in my home and she lived with my GSD and Rottie. She did get a bit of a big head because when she rushed barking at the fence/door and people backed away she seemed to assume it was because of her but in reality there were 2 big dogs standing behind her. Gave her quite the ego. Lol. 
I have known many whom have a tendency to 'overbark' but all in all this is a training issue. One or two barks from Lucy and an 'Thank You' was enough to hush the beast unless the person came in acting 'off' or tried to force themselves on her. 
I think the look of adoration from those little eyes are well worth any effort one has to put in for training but that goes with any dog. 
I hope you find the perfect dog for your situation and whom fits your needs.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

I will definitely re look into min pins...There are some lovely breeders close to me.  I'll give one a call and discuss my needs with her.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Have not read whole thread and just throwing this out here, would a Corgi or Jack Russell exceed your size program. I once trained a Corgi meaner than a barrel of snakes. Pound for pound one nasty rascal. (just trying to build up the protection factor a bit)


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## fairyezu (Jul 25, 2010)

If you want

*A dog that needs professional grooming once every 6-8 weeks, brushing every day. (You said you wanted a dog you can brush?)
*A dog that is small, not to small - yet has no fear of dogs 10 times their own size.
*A dog that has a lot of attitude and energy
*A dog that can live in cold weather and is extremely independent by nature.
*A dog that is very loving yet very sure of themselves...

West Highland Terrier is perfect.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

First of all, thank you so much for all your help!

The breeds my mother and I have narrowed it down to are (in no particular order

Min Pin
Westie
Toy Poodle
Yorkie
Pomeranian
Papillion


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Let us know which one you decide on! And of course, when you get your dog we will need pictures!


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Ehoops! Instead of Papillion it should be shih tzu


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Shih Tzu are wonderful dogs. I obviously think so because I have 3, lol but they really are great dogs.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

It's all so exciting!


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