# Do you always follow vets advice?



## CCSC (Mar 8, 2013)

I want to switch my dogs food. He is on (as per the vets recommendation) Hills Z/D Ultra, which is a hypoallergenic food. A few years ago he was always licking his paws raw, always got ear infections and just generally bad skin. So the vet recommended the Hills Z/D ultra, which we switched to without looking into it. He has not had any ear infections since and he only licks his paws raw in the spring (outdoor allergies) so I guess it worked. On the other side of it, before we switched his food he was in very poor heath. When we switched, we also switched vets, did a complete overhaul of his medication and his health has never been better. Before the switch he was bordering on liver failure, and now he's almost in normal range. So that makes me wonder if its the food or if its that he's just generally healthier. Also, before we switched to Hills, he was on Medi-cal, which I now realize was full of corn. 

Since all this, I have done lots of research and I don't believe Hills is the best dog food, not even close, especially for the price tag. I spoke with my vet, who I really do think is great, and told her I would like to switch. She has STRONGLY urged me not to. Basically saying if its not broke don't fix it. However, I feel I could be doing better for my dog, and I want to do better. Although he hasn't had ear infections, and his skin problems are better, they are not great. His coat is dull, when you pet him he almost feels dusty. Would that not be his food? Not getting the right nutrients?

I've looked at Acana Duck and Pear, and Fromms Senior. Both seem really great, but my vet has me totally second guessing myself. I know these are better foods, but will I be causing more harm then good to my dog by switching? Should I follow my vets advice and not switch, or should I trust my gut and switch? I plan on doing the switch unbelievably slow, so I'm thinking that if allergies do pop up, I could easily stop, would that work?

I should note, because of my dogs condition, I need the new food to match his sodium and chloride levels of his current food, that is why I said Acana Duck and Pear and Fromms Senior as they match almost perfectly. He is also 9 years old (JRT Cross)

Any help/advice would be great! Crazy paranoid about my dog, and I'm driving my husband nuts with the food issue.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

If your dog had itchy paws, ear infections, etc. then I would guess he probably had an underlying yeast infection on top of his allergies, so you would want to stay away from foods with grain or any other starchy veggies (stay away from potato, for example).

What food was he on before the Hills? I would maybe stay away from that specific protein (I am going to guess it's probably chicken), and do a formula without chicken.

Some good companies to look into would be Orijen (higher end line from Champion who make Acana), Nature's Variety Instinct, ZiwiPeak (strongly recommend for animals with allergies/sensitivities), Stella and Chewy's... and if you can, you can also make your own raw or home cooked diet 

I don't listen to my vet on nutrition advice because... well, I feed raw, and most vets oppose the raw diet, but all of my animals seem to be doing so much better on it. My cats would be a perfectly good example -- they were fed Royal Canin at first at the recommendation of the vet... and then I did my research and found out how terrible the food is... so I switched to higher quality kibbles, etc. but I was still having issues with fur loss, urinary crystals, etc... and then I switched to raw (against the recommendation of my vet) because one of mine developed lower urinary tract disease (a condition he will have to deal with for his entire life), and ever since the switch both my cats' health have improved significantly.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I do not listen to my vet's advice about behavior/training, food, and most vaccines. 

I would absolutely take that dog off of Hills and put him on something like the Acana you mentioned.


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## mcdavis (May 1, 2012)

I would never listen to either of my local vets' advice regarding which food to feed my dog. In the past I have had some very interesting discussions with them regarding dry dog food and it's contents - from these discussions it became very apparent that their knowledge of dog food came solely from the reps of the food they stocked. As for raw, their knowledge could kindly be described as non-existent!
I also do my own research on vaccines and will have a discussion if required. One example is the rabies vaccine - there is only one that I am happy to use and my vet doesn't carry it. What was interesting was that she had no knowledge of it and did try to say the brand she used was the best. We very amicably agreed to disagree and I said she could have the business if she gets it in for me, or I'd go elsewhere to have it done.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I generally listen to my vet's advice; he's younger (30s), intelligent and rational, and got his degree in Scotland. But he's also never given me advice about food other than the number of calories Murdoch needed per day because M-for-Murder was getting pudgy. He prefers fewer vaccinations to more, does 3 year rabies, whereas most places here do 1 year, and has told me that Orijen is a very high quality food but not all dogs/cats do well on it (which was something I already knew, but was good to hear). He has flat out told me that Iams is not a very good food, and has never pushed Royal Canin or Hill's SD. I'm not even sure if they sell Hill's SD... if they do, probably only the condition-specific formulas.

If I were you, I would definitely switch to the Acana, but I'm biased... ACANA is made in my area and the Duck and Pear is Snowball's favourite flavour of theirs.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I listen to my vets advice - to an extent. 
I find that I'm either obnoxious and just *think* I'm more knowledgeable then they are, or that I actually know a little more then my vet does about what my pets are fed and what brands are better. As far as medical care (antibiotics) I listen, but generally... I find when I walk in, I'm telling them what's wrong and telling them the diagnosis, and they're just giving me pills to treat.


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## Lupen (Jun 17, 2013)

As far as food and behavior goes? Not usually. But as far as everything else goes I tend to listen to the professional; he's a good vet, afterall. Though like most, undereducated on nutrition and the like.


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## ACD#1 (Jun 26, 2013)

Not when it comes to food! I fell into that trap with my last Cattle Dog. Back and forth between SD r/d & w/d. Then she came down with cancer. I have to live with that everyday! Maybe she would have had some more years with a top tier food, who knows.


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## Brydean (Apr 3, 2008)

For me it depends on the issue. For my dog, no, not a chance. He recommended Hills Science Diet, or Purina One. Not happening! He is young with no health issues, I hope to keep it that way with good quality food.
My cat I do use Hills C/D. He is prone to bladder crystals. I tried to treat him with a high quality cat food and he got blocked again. So in his case, I feel the benefits of the prescription out weigh the negatives off the lower quality food.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Mine is a genius. I'd be crazy not to.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Mine is a genius. I'd be crazy not to.


Well, if my vet was your vet I'd listen to them too. :wink:

Seriously, my vet and I do not always see eye to eye, especially on things like nutrition, but we have the type of working relationship where we discuss these differences. He lays out the pros and cons he's familiar with and I lay out my reasoning and share the research I've done. BUT my vet has never tried to push any brands or regimens on me and is generally very pragmatic and logical about treatment choices.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

The boys' official vet...yes and no. She is a good vet, but totally misdiagnosed an eye inflammation as entropian which could be fixed with surgery she said. A veterinary ophthalmologist said it was an autoimmune response and some eye ointment cleared it up and it's never come back. Ever since then...I do some research on my own and I have no problem on getting second opinions from specialists. 

A close friend is a vet and not the boys' official vet...I do listen to her.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> I do not listen to my vet's advice about behavior/training, food, and most vaccines.
> 
> I would absolutely take that dog off of Hills and put him on something like the Acana you mentioned.


Totally agree with this, I am the same.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Brydean said:


> For me it depends on the issue. For my dog, no, not a chance. He recommended Hills Science Diet, or Purina One. Not happening! He is young with no health issues, I hope to keep it that way with good quality food.
> My cat I do use Hills C/D. He is prone to bladder crystals. I tried to treat him with a high quality cat food and he got blocked again. So in his case, I feel the benefits of the prescription out weigh the negatives off the lower quality food.


If you're feeding dry, that is unfortunately the consequence of chronic dehydration.

Cats on wet/raw with a high amount of animal protein are able to pass crystals on their own (trust me, I've had the same issue with my cat). Dry vet food is the worst thing you can give your cat -- it's even worse than feeding your dog that stuff.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I follow vet advice when it comes to medical or medicinal things. I don't necessarily follow it when it comes to food. If my vet told me to switch foods because of allergies, I would do it, but I would do my own research on which foods to switch to. 

I generally think Hills SD is a pretty poor choice in foods. In your situation, I would absolutely choose one of the other foods (I like both brands you mentioned)


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I generally think Hills SD is a pretty poor choice in foods. In your situation, I would absolutely choose one of the other foods (I like both brands you mentioned)


It is one thing to recommend a Hills Rx food for some specific ailments, but I don't think allergies is really one of them (especially if the dog is still having issues!). Especially because there are a ton of hypoallergenic/LID foods out there that I would consider to be of higher quality than Hills.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

elrohwen said:


> I follow vet advice when it comes to medical or medicinal things. I don't necessarily follow it when it comes to food. If my vet told me to switch foods because of allergies, I would do it, but I would do my own research on which foods to switch to.
> 
> I generally think Hills SD is a pretty poor choice in foods. In your situation, I would absolutely choose one of the other foods (I like both brands you mentioned)


Exactly what I do. Sassy had kidney disease and I switched food right away. No way I was going to keep on with regular food. I did a lot of research and developed a home cooked food that matched the nutritional goals of the prescription food though. I did have to pressure the vet to allow me to advance through the treatment protocols faster than he thought necessary. 

If the vet wanted the dog on allergy food I would then choose a food with extremely limited ingredients. If the vet wanted the dog on low residue I would find a food with low fiber, etc.

Some dog food companies got into trouble with FDA because there were proteins that weren't supposed to be in there and didn't have proteins that were supposed to be in there. Could be one reason vets trust prescription diets. Those companies are more likely to keep the equipment clean, test the ingredients and keep to the recipe.


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## Brydean (Apr 3, 2008)

taquitos said:


> If you're feeding dry, that is unfortunately the consequence of chronic dehydration.
> 
> Cats on wet/raw with a high amount of animal protein are able to pass crystals on their own (trust me, I've had the same issue with my cat). Dry vet food is the worst thing you can give your cat -- it's even worse than feeding your dog that stuff.


I know, dry is bad. I was feeding dry when it first happened. Taste of the Wild actually.
When it happened the 2nd time, I was feeding Felidae wet, which I even added extra water too. I also had tried several of the other high quality wets, but he didn't like them as well. He will only eat the pate style foods. LOL I even attempted raw, but he wouldn't touch it.
Trust me I will never feed a cat dry food again! I do keep a small bowl around as he will much on it now and again. But his main meals are wet. I will feed a crappy quality wet before I will feed a high quality dry.
I'm to afraid to attempt any thing other than the prescription now. I don't have an extra $1500 laying around for surgery. So I will stick with what he recommends.


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## TTs Towel (May 22, 2012)

fffffffffffffffffffff


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

I used to listen to my vet about everything but now I definitely don't about nutrition. She pushes hills and RC and quotes their studies religiously. She thinks raw is dangerous and all in one sentence has said that acana is a dangerous food and a good food. She also once had me believing that turkey is poisonous to dogs and causes pancreatitis. A google search responds with not even one link to suggest that other than sayin that thanksgiving pan drippings are high in fat and can cause pancreatitis. 
Allergies are not something that I would use a prescription diet for but as someone with experience with a dog with liver failure, the medi-cal diet does wonders. My dog oddly also licked his paws raw and had seasonal allergies, among several other problems. I wonder if its connected to the liver enzyme levels. What helped his paws was a round of clindimycyn (sp?) antibiotic. 
Good luck.


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## CCSC (Mar 8, 2013)

TTs Towel said:


> Agreed 100%.
> 
> To the OP:
> 
> Ignore all of the benefit your dog has had from switching to that food and go with something else. Definitely don't trust them just because they went to school for a really long time. I'd stick with advice from part time dog groomers and former humane society workers.


Is that sarcasm? Or serious? Sorry, I cant tell!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CCSC said:


> Is that sarcasm? Or serious? Sorry, I cant tell!


Based on their agreement with my post, I think they are being serious, though it is really hard to tell!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

My vet recommended me to switch to one of the Hills formulas for my cats a while back, because they were slightly overweight (maybe 1-2 pounds) and it had fewer calories, and it also had bigger kibbles to help with some build up on their teeth. He offered me a couple cups to see if they'd like it, and the second time he gave me a free bag, but I didn't buy any more of it.

When we went again recently, we saw a different vet (not by request, it just happened to be a different person) and she said not to worry too much about their weight (she did say they were slightly overweight, but said it was nothing to be concerned about, just keep an eye on it) and that their teeth looked great. I hadn't done anything drastically different, so now I'm doubting that the first vet was being entirely forthcoming with me. 

It sucks, because he's the vet that looked after our family dog when I was a kid, which is why I went with him when I first got a cat of my own. Now I'm uncertain about whether or not I should continue seeing him, but he's been at that clinic for a long time, so I don't imagine he's had many complaints against him.


ETA: The vet assistant who was there when he recommended switching the food mentioned that I could just brush their teeth to help with the build up when he had stepped out of the room for a moment, then when he came back in he said to switch foods to help with it.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

I'm not a vet, but I've been told that they get very little (if any) training in food/nutrition. Our former vet tried to push Hills i/d on us for our puppy. I listened at first but did a lot of research on my own and found out that it's not the best food. I ended up finding a better (and less expensive) food that works well.

This vet also did not know about a dewormer that I had researched extensively online. And when our puppy had diarrhea and was antibiotics I researched that she should also be taking a probiotic of some kind. When I went back to the vet to ask him about it, he then insisted that the puppy absolutely must have the prescription probiotic and that any other kind was not good enough. Even though he never even mentioned it before and I was the one who brought it up. Then he tried to make me feel guilty for suggesting that maybe I try a non-prescription one first since it was quite a bit cheaper.

So that is why he is my FORMER vet. Now I am skeptical about anything they say and usually try to do my own research beforehand.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

I don't listen to everything my vet says because I know I'm smarter than them 

I somewhat dislike the online notion to not listen to vets. I'm more of the mindset that even if you are smarter than your vet, you should at least take what they say into consideration. It's just the...well...smart thing to do. Even if you don't agree with them, you should at least listen to their reasoning. You might learn something else to study up on.

In most cases, vets have more background in animal physiology and health related knowledge than the average pet owner. I would also expect the general vet population to be more intelligent and have better reasoning skills than the general pet owner population. Certainly, there are idiots on both sides but if I thought a vet was an idiot, I wouldn't be using them as a vet to begin with.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

zhaor said:


> I don't listen to everything my vet says because I know I'm smarter than them
> 
> I somewhat dislike the online notion to not listen to vets. I'm more of the mindset that even if you are smarter than your vet, you should at least take what they say into consideration. It's just the...well...smart thing to do. Even if you don't agree with them, you should at least listen to their reasoning. You might learn something else to study up on.
> 
> In most cases, vets have more background in animal physiology and health related knowledge than the average pet owner. I would also expect the general vet population to be more intelligent and have better reasoning skills than the general pet owner population. Certainly, there are idiots on both sides but if I thought a vet was an idiot, I wouldn't be using them as a vet to begin with.


If more people were reasonable like this, there... well, would be less stupid people in the world. In all seriousness though, this brings up a good point: I think perhaps, when it comes to discussing vets, "listen" tends to be equated with "obey".


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmm, yeah. I'll _listen_ to anything---even if it's total nonsense they might have a good point buried somewhere in that nonsense, LOL. But obey it. . .no so much.


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## CCSC (Mar 8, 2013)

I think this is my problem. I listen to everything my vet says, and I just feel so incredibly guilty if I do not follow the exact advice. They can have a way of making you feel "cheap" even if the decision isn't based on money. 

When I brought up the food switch, my vet made it seem like I didn't want to spend the money on the Hills Z/D, and is essence like I was cheaping out on my dog. However, my problem is with the quality. And yes, the expense does bother me. If I am paying top dollar, I want the best and Hills is just not it.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

My input would be to switch foods. My dog was put on a prescription diet for liver problems and he wouldn't even eat the stuff. It was the canned food too which had never been a problem with him. I switched him to a homemade diet because his liver enzyme levels kept getting worse on the Hills since he wasn't getting enough calories. I'm pretty sure switching him to home made food which was obviously higher quality then Hill's had a huge impact on getting him healthy again. 

So, if your worried about a specific health problem maybe you can contact a canine nutritionist that can help you formulate a specific diet for whatever problem your dog has. Your dog has allergy problems so you're probably going to want to stick with a limited diet. Maybe try a homemade diet with a single protein source like rabbit and some sweet potato and then start to slowly add things in. That way you can see what causes the problems. If it's too much to continue home cooking you can look for a kibble that has similar ingredients to the home cooked food he does well on. 

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of high quality kibbles with limited protein sources and no grains and you'll more likely then not be able to find something that works for you dog. Good luck


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

My own health issues have taught me that doctors in general are, well, people. Nobody knows everything and everyone is susceptible to drug reps with expense accounts or the self interest of selling the food you recommend. Frankly, I don't think vets should sell food at all. There is a distinct conflict of interest there. It would be like your doctor selling certain brands of medication, gee, what do you suppose he'd prescribe?

So, I always do my own research and I've learned to trust my instincts.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I agree with whomever said it sounds like yeast and try a grain/potato free food and I'd go chicken free as well. If you want a list of grain/potato free foods, I can copy & paste it.

I do not listen to my regular vets about nutrition but I would my holistic vet, if I had questions.


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## CCSC (Mar 8, 2013)

I think we are going to go with Acana's Duck and Bartlett Pear. It looks good and was recommended by a co worker. Fingers crossed all goes well.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CCSC said:


> I think we are going to go with Acana's Duck and Bartlett Pear. It looks good and was recommended by a co worker. Fingers crossed all goes well.


Good luck! Make sure you update us!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

CCSC said:


> I think we are going to go with Acana's Duck and Bartlett Pear. It looks good and was recommended by a co worker. Fingers crossed all goes well.


Hope the dog does ok. If it is yeast, there's potato in the Acana that might be a problem


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## Echo the Dog (Jun 30, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> My own health issues have taught me that doctors in general are, well, people. Nobody knows everything and everyone is susceptible to drug reps with expense accounts or the self interest of selling the food you recommend. Frankly, I don't think vets should sell food at all. There is a distinct conflict of interest there. It would be like your doctor selling certain brands of medication, gee, what do you suppose he'd prescribe?
> 
> So, I always do my own research and I've learned to trust my instincts.



Bingo!

Vets are paid to push certain products just as human docs are "educated" and paid by pharmaceutical reps to use certain products. Do your own research (here is a great place) and follow your instincts.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Echo the Dog said:


> Vets are paid to push certain products...


Sigh. No. No one is paying vets to push their products. How come no one complains how Acana is paying the pet store to "push" their product? lolderp


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Sigh. No. No one is paying vets to push their products. How come no one complains how Acana is paying the pet store to "push" their product? lolderp


Vets are the only ones who can prescribe and sell fancy hills prescription food, aren't they?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Vets are the only ones who can prescribe and sell fancy hills prescription food, aren't they?


They allow only veterinarians to _purchase_ it from them and then, yes, veterinarians sell it. That's how retail works. 

They do not "pay" veterinarians to "push" the food.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

sassafras said:


> They allow only veterinarians to _purchase_ it from them and then, yes, veterinarians sell it. That's how retail works.
> 
> They do not "pay" veterinarians to "push" the food.


No, I realize that, I think most people say that but actually mean that vets can benefit a lot from pushing the food since they are paid by the customers for the food. I was just clarifying this was the case before assuming.

They don't make any money by telling someone to go feed TOTW or BB, AND they're more familiar with (usually) the only food they sell so it is their go-to for everything.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> No, I realize that, I think most people say that but actually mean that vets can benefit a lot from pushing the food since they are paid by the customers for the food. I was just clarifying this was the case before assuming.


I don't think that's what people mean at all. I see it enough, and have gotten in enough arguments about it, that I'm pretty sure most people actually think that companies are actually paying veterinarians for recommending their foods. 

And even if they actually mean it the way you've stated it... there is _very_ little profit in food for veterinarians. For the most part (barring corporate practices) they are too small to order, store, or move food in large enough quantities to keep their costs low enough.

Yet no one believes me that, say, Wellness is paying off Petco to carry their food. Sadface.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Hope the dog does ok. If it is yeast, there's potato in the Acana that might be a problem


+1 to that. Yeasty dogs and foods with starchy carbs in foods are no good unfortunately.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Brydean said:


> I know, dry is bad. I was feeding dry when it first happened. Taste of the Wild actually.
> When it happened the 2nd time, I was feeding Felidae wet, which I even added extra water too. I also had tried several of the other high quality wets, but he didn't like them as well. He will only eat the pate style foods. LOL I even attempted raw, but he wouldn't touch it.
> Trust me I will never feed a cat dry food again! I do keep a small bowl around as he will much on it now and again. But his main meals are wet. I will feed a crappy quality wet before I will feed a high quality dry.
> I'm to afraid to attempt any thing other than the prescription now. I don't have an extra $1500 laying around for surgery. So I will stick with what he recommends.


Raw can take months for a cat to switch over to. The trick is to keep them on a wet that they WILL eat, and then to add a little bit of raw (literally a pea sized amount) with each meal until they are eating completely raw. This can take weeks, months, etc. My cats took two weeks to transition (they are ridiculously picky).

Hopefully when you are feeling more comfortable, you will give raw a chance again... It's helped my cat (who has lower urinary tract disease, so was getting sterile cystitis and crystals like your cat but not as severe) tremendously. We haven't had a single flare up since the switch


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Sigh. No. No one is paying vets to push their products. How come no one complains how Acana is paying the pet store to "push" their product? lolderp


That's another thing. People tend to want to jump to conclusions and conspiracy theories about vets instead of actually trying to discuss things with their vets. Are vets really that intimidating?

I've had vets recommend prescription food because they actually believe that the food would help. Even the most ignorantly anti raw vet I've used was very open to discussing alternatives when i brought up concerns about the ingredients used in prescription foods. She spent extra time talking to me about home cooked diets and about what to look for in commercial food options. She actually went out of her way to follow up with me to provide resources that I could read up on but I'm sure it was all just an elaborate plan to reel me in to sell me more Hills


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

If I am remember this correctly, I'm pretty sure when I read about it that the whole idea is the Science Diet donates money to various Vet schools and actually goes into the schools and talks about their products. It's been a while since I've read about it but I remember it being something like that.

Anyways, basically they are pretty much talked into having this relationship with Science Diet and selling the products at their offices because Science Diet literally forced it's way into vet schools with the use of money.

I tried looking it up again and I can't find the paper I read but while reading something I saw this: 

"Nikki, did that vet have the initials “G.A.”? I’ve taken CEU classes about small animal nutrition (to supplement my vet tech knowledge), and I’ve ended up with instructors who work for Hills. In fact, every single pet nutrition class I try to find, and which is authorized for CEU credit, is either taught by someone from Hills or Purina, or paid for by them, or they’re providing the program materials. I went to sign up for a course on Nutrition and Kidney Disease, and I was excitedly informed that all the course materials were being offered free by Hills! Whoopee.

And yes, the course instructors always find a way to show that their product is the best and the safest and most reliable, while pooh-pooh-ing smaller, independent brands, and even mocking them. It’s pretty disgusting."

-http://www.itchmo.com/wondered-why-you-always-find-science-diet-at-the-vet-241

I mean, that's pretty horrible. The fact that a person trying to learn about animal nutrition is being taught by someone that works for a specific food company. Obviously they're going to have a biased opinion and considering they sell such a crappy food to begin with I'm doubting they're all that knowledgeable in nutrition at all.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> For the most part (barring corporate practices) they are too small to order, store, or move food in large enough quantities to keep their costs low enough.


see I have heard this, but I have a hard time believing it. every time I walk into a vet office I see more people coming in just to purchase food then I see when I walk into a dog food store. then there is the matter that I know 2 people that have worked at one particular clinic and 5 that work at currently or have worked at another particular clinic(neither clinic is corporate), they all said they have large stock rooms full of food that they sell COMPLETELY out of every TWO DAYS. both clinics are known for heavily pushing Hills and Medi-cal, while going out of their way to heavily demonize everything else


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Miss Bugs said:


> see I have heard this, but I have a hard time believing it. every time I walk into a vet office I see more people coming in just to purchase food then I see when I walk into a dog food store. then there is the matter that I know 2 people that have worked at one particular clinic and 5 that work at currently or have worked at another particular clinic(neither clinic is corporate), they all said they have large stock rooms full of food that they sell COMPLETELY out of every TWO DAYS. both clinics are known for heavily pushing Hills and Medi-cal, while going out of their way to heavily demonize everything else


I have a local boutique pet store that has a "large stockroom", probably larger than the clinics you reference, with a very high merchandise turnover rate. Yet they are still $15 higher per bag than their corporate competitors. The simple truth is a single store/clinic cannot possibly compete with the ordering volume of a big box chain store/clinic. Say that clinic orders 200 bags of Hill's a week, Banfield (with well over 800 stores nationwide) will order 20,000 bags in that same week (this is probably VERY conservative), who do you think gets the best bulk pricing? 

In a former life, I used to work in procurement for Walmart. I would order by markets, which typically encompassed sections of regions. Local competitors would order produce in the 1000s of pounds, sometimes in the 10s of 1000s of pounds in the cases of items likes bananas and apples. I would be placing orders for MILLIONS of pounds and typically my per pound price was HALF that of the smaller guys. Yet, in the store my bananas would only be 10 cents cheaper per pound than theirs. 

As far as humans doctors getting "perks" from drug companies and their reps, I suppose there _may_ be pockets of the medical profession where this still happens. I remember when the practice was fairly rampant and lots of exposes were being written about it. Since then there has been a large scale crackdown on the practice. As it stands now *most* doctors tolerate the visits of drug reps and allow them to post their materials in the office because this brings in life-saving samples that they couldn't get otherwise. Nobody wants to sit through those boring presentations and listen to company shills spout propaganda and cite biased studies and none of the doctors I know have the disposal time necessary to budget in a couple of hours a week for drug rep visits, yet everybody does it because it has become a necessary evil. When medications can cost thousands of dollars a month and many patients either have no insurance at all or at least lack decent prescription drug coverage those samples can literally mean the difference between life and death. As a medical professional you do what you can to help your patients. 

Sass, do you get samples as a veterinarian?


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

zhaor said:


> That's another thing. People tend to want to jump to conclusions and conspiracy theories about vets instead of actually trying to discuss things with their vets. Are vets really that intimidating?


I will never understand this. Why would someone pay good money for a vet's time and advice and then not even use it? Why make the assumption that they were just "pushing" whatever food and then come onto the internet and take the advice of random strangers? Just take a minute and express your concerns and talk with them. Just make it a freakin normal conversation - don't go into it as "you vs them." If they're unwilling to discuss your concerns then it's probably time to switch vets.



Emmett said:


> Say that clinic orders 200 bags of Hill's a week
> 
> Sass, do you get samples as a veterinarian?


I've never been in a practice that orders 200 bags per week. Even a large specialty practice (with 20 vets) that I worked ER in that dished out A LOT of prescription diet didn't order that much. It is not a money maker - it just provides convenience for owners that want it. The money comes from what services we provide, not what food we provide. We sell no regular diets at all - Prescription only - and would provide a written script to get it elsewhere if the client wanted -- MOST do not want to go elsewhere. We use some Hills, Purina, and Eukanuba prescription diets b/c that's who makes them. 

We can't be dishing out random OTC diets for certain diseases in place of prescription diets b/c of anecdotal reports that they work.

I don't know about Sass, but, I have never received samples. Laws are tough about that sort of thing now a days - a LOT of the free stuff I think the companies used to give out have been stopped since I started practicing.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

The clinic I work at gets tons of free samples of Hill's. Canned and dry.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Most of the time...

But my vet has a ton of common sense which I like.

Hills Science Diet supports a lot of vets I think... But when I told her I don't necessary liked that brand, she honestly tells me to feed what is best and what best fits what my financial state.. If I think I can afford expensive, go expensive. Can afford inexpensive, go inexpensive... Etc.
Mine is a healthy dog though... And I mix his kibbles via 3-5 brands.... Base (TOTW)
And then mix with home cooked and raw (though I believe in raw, my vet not totally on board with it).

My best gauge to dog food???
A healthy dog poop (I inspect daily).


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I've never been to a clinic that only sells perscription diets, they all sell non 'script foods pushing them as the best thing you could ever feed your dog. all hills and medi cal, but just plain ol "adult" or "puppy" food non the less, this is what I usually see people buying. my holistic vet OTH sells cani source, orijen and carnivora (raw) regular and medi cal for 'script diets.

one clinic just outside of town is terrible for pushing script diets for every stupid made up thing. I don't know a single person who has gone to that clinic and not walked out with a script diet of some kind, even people who know better.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

i work at one of the big chain pet supply stores and was talking (ok maybe instigating) with the area rep for Royal Canin who also used to work for hill's. She told me that vets make a 40% mark up on the foods they sell in the clinic. at least here in canada. that's pretty significant when you consider how expensive those foods are. when my dog has liver failure i was paying $75 for an 8kg bag of Medi-cal. he went through a bag about every 4-5wks so when you consider that my vet was making an extra $30 a month off me alone without even needing to talk to me, it makes sense why she wouldnt tell me there may be other options. even if there were only 10 people buying food at the clinic (and i can assure you theres far more) thats $300 a month in extra profit. unfortunately at the time i was too naive to question her or look around especially considering how sick my dog was and i was convinced that any over the counter foods would kill him. now theres very little chance that a vet could sell me food for any reason.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Really, does it matter to y'all what everyone else is feeding their pets?

If I'm feeding my dog a prescription (or not) diet made by Hill's or Purina or whatever, MYOFB about it and let me + my veterinarian make the best decisions for my dogs. Do what you will with yours, but seriously. If you're getting your britches in a bunch about what your neighbors + fellow vet clients are feeding their pets, you should try to get out more. There are bigger problems in the world.

And quite frankly, I personally have tried "premium" brands of dog food. I've wound up with goopy eyes, and dry, itchy, dull coats. I put them back on the horrid grain inclusive kibble they'd been on previously and _viola!_ - clean eyes, shiny coats, no more itching.

What's good for the goose ain't always good for the gander.

ETA: And to answer the original question, I listen to everything my vet has to say. They only, you know, have 8+ years of veterinary school compared to my zero years. That doesn't mean that I necessarily do everything they suggest, but I figure they've probably got more education than my buddies here on the good ol' interwebs.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

last time we followed an exotic vets nutritional advise, supposedly back up by exotic's nutritionist, we had 14 young healthy gerbils drop dead of starvation. that was the first and last time we have ever listened to a vet. we use vets for prescriptions we feel are needed and diagnostic equipment..that's it. and even the diagnostics its sketchy because I have mistakenly not researched quite enough before and wound up completely fleeced by vets. most recently? I had not done quite enough research on autoimmune thyrioditus to know that the blood sample had to be sent away, so I had THOUGHT "I want a FULL thyroid panel, NOT just a T4" was clear as mud and didn't think twice when they said "Oh! NOT just a T4, a full panel, got it" and took my dogs blood and went off to run the sample while I waited. it wasn't till I got home and really studied the results sheets the vet gave me that I realized she had simply run a T4.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

MonicaBH said:


> What's good for the goose ain't always good for the gander..


This will become my signature


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Miss Bugs said:


> see I have heard this, but I have a hard time believing it. every time I walk into a vet office I see more people coming in just to purchase food then I see when I walk into a dog food store. then there is the matter that I know 2 people that have worked at one particular clinic and 5 that work at currently or have worked at another particular clinic(neither clinic is corporate), they all said they have large stock rooms full of food that they sell COMPLETELY out of every TWO DAYS. both clinics are known for heavily pushing Hills and Medi-cal, while going out of their way to heavily demonize everything else


How much food do you think Petsmart or Petco order in a year? I don't mean an individual store, I mean the corporation - because that's how they order. Thousands of pounds of food at a time. There's no way any small business can compete with that. We don't stock (because we don't have room) maintenance foods but can order them from our distributor - but most of the time it's just as much for me to do that, paying our wholesale price, as it is to go to a pet store. 

And no way, no how do we mark up food 40%. LOL then people would REALLY be complaining about the price.




Emmett said:


> Sass, do you get samples as a veterinarian?


Bahahah. No. Occasionally when a new prescription food first comes out the company will provide a few free bags or cans to the clinic.



Miss Bugs said:


> I've never been to a clinic that only sells perscription diets, they all sell non 'script foods pushing them as the best thing you could ever feed your dog. all hills and medi cal, but just plain ol "adult" or "puppy" food non the less, this is what I usually see people buying.


Lots of clinics only sell prescription diets. Some (like the one I work at) just don't have the room for anything else, others just don't want to deal with it.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

sassafras said:


> others just don't want to deal with it.


This. It's just a huge pain in the ass to deal with and not profitable enough to stock it IMO


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Of course not. Vets are evil. 

I go to my vet because I like him and I trust him. So far he's given me good care for my dogs. We haven't really talked about food beyond 'what are you feeding? Oh ok.' I usually buy science diet ID to have around the house as I've found it works incredibly well when my dogs need a bland diet. But he knows what I feed and it's never been an issue. My dogs have done very well on their bloodwork and check ups.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Of course not. Vets are evil.


Evil _money-grubbers_, Laurelin. Evil money-grubbers.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Evil _money-grubbers_, Laurelin. Evil money-grubbers.


...with debt burdens that would make most cry. :wink:


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Like I said about the 40% mark up, it may just be locally here in Ontario Canada, but I believe it. Sass, if you don't mind me asking, what's the price of a 8kg (18lb) bag of RC hepatic diet at your clinic? Like I said I was paying $75+tax.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't think we routinely carry that diet, and I won't be in the clinic until later this week but I can certainly check. That seems like a lot to me, though, for similar prescription diets we do carry.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Miss Bugs said:


> see I have heard this, but I have a hard time believing it. every time I walk into a vet office I see more people coming in just to purchase food then I see when I walk into a dog food store. then there is the matter that I know 2 people that have worked at one particular clinic and 5 that work at currently or have worked at another particular clinic(neither clinic is corporate), they all said they have large stock rooms full of food that they sell COMPLETELY out of every TWO DAYS. both clinics are known for heavily pushing Hills and Medi-cal, while going out of their way to heavily demonize everything else


I was an office manager in a vet clinic for 3 yrs, and worked in another clinic for 2 yrs prior to that. Food was a necessary evil, but largely a pain in the butt to inventory, stock, maintain, and sell with minimal markup because it already cost so much. Neither clinic I worked at sold non prescription Hills/Waltham/Purina etc.. food. One sold Wysong for a non-Rx food. The prescription foods do help for a lot of specific medical conditions, and that's why they're prescribed. Not for a huge profit or company kickbacks. 

Two of my cats are on prescription food for urinary crystals (which they got despite being on grain free high quality wet food), and I buy the least sketchy one available (Waltham Urinary SO), and they don't have problems on it. It's insanely expensive, and really inconvenient to go buy because the vet I actually go to doesn't even carry it so I have to go out of my way to another vet who has my Rx to get it... 



Emmett said:


> Sass, do you get samples as a veterinarian?


We used to get boxes of sample sized bags of Hill's food from Hill's when I worked at vet hospitals. When we got a bunch of boxes together, we'd pack them up and drop them off at the local animal shelter. They always appreciated them. It would have made sense to give us samples of the prescription food because it was so expensive and people were hesitant to buy it not knowing if their pets would eat it, but that didn't happen. We would buy bags and break them down into small sample bags to give clients so that they could make sure their pets would eat it before investing in a bag.


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## CCSC (Mar 8, 2013)

taquitos said:


> +1 to that. Yeasty dogs and foods with starchy carbs in foods are no good unfortunately.


His current food has potato in it, with no reaction. So hopefully this will be ok.


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## CCSC (Mar 8, 2013)

I really didn't mean to make this thread about the evils of vets. I truly love my vet. She has been very helpful and really great with our dog. This is the first time I have not followed her advice to a T, so I just wanted some opinions (support maybe) to see if I was possibly doing the right thing. I feel wrong going against what she has said, but I just don't think his food allergies were handled right for the get go. His previous vet put him on Hills Z/D right away. I feel we should have tried to figure out what the reaction was coming from, and that Hills should have been the last resort. That is what I am trying to make up for. If Acana Duck and Pear works, great. If it doesn't, maybe we will try something else, maybe we will go back to Hills. 

Anyways....Does anyone know how long it takes for a reaction to show? I've been adding a spoonful of Acana into his 1/2c Hills twice a day. I'm going to do that for a week. Increase it to 2 spoons and so on.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CCSC said:


> Anyways....Does anyone know how long it takes for a reaction to show? I've been adding a spoonful of Acana into his 1/2c Hills twice a day. I'm going to do that for a week. Increase it to 2 spoons and so on.


I believe I've heard up to three weeks? Sometimes much, much sooner.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

MonicaBH said:


> Really, does it matter to y'all what everyone else is feeding their pets?
> 
> If I'm feeding my dog a prescription (or not) diet made by Hill's or Purina or whatever, MYOFB about it and let me + my veterinarian make the best decisions for my dogs. Do what you will with yours, but seriously. If you're getting your britches in a bunch about what your neighbors + fellow vet clients are feeding their pets, you should try to get out more. There are bigger problems in the world.
> 
> ...



this x438903209.

Nug eats grain free, but thats because_ he_ does better on it. I have issues with beneful/ ol roy (dyes) but iams and purina one? if it works for your dog, go for it.

Nug's grain free is actually cheaper than iams. I don't have the budget to spend $2/lb on dog food like some people do.


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