# Choke chain question



## hitman07 (Jan 5, 2009)

How long would it take before seeing any improvement after using a choke chain to stop my dog from pulling on the leash?
Are we talking weeks or months or longer?

thanks


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## mandymmr (May 22, 2009)

all depends how often you ar doing it! If you are walking daily then it should only take a few days at the most!


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## hitman07 (Jan 5, 2009)

i am going to do it daily from yesterday on so hopefully it shudnt take long. when he is on the choke chain he pants and chokes. I know thats the purpose but this will stop the more i use it isnt that correct?


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

how old is your dog now?


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## hitman07 (Jan 5, 2009)

He is 9 months. he is a red terrier who is a bit hyper to say the least but he is great also. do u think it will take long then?


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## mandymmr (May 22, 2009)

pinch collars work really well also. When I trained mine on a choke collar, when they would pull too much and make them choke/gagg I would also tug on the choker while saying no. My dog learned quickly that he didn't like that and started to stop pulling me! Now he walks right by my side!


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## hitman07 (Jan 5, 2009)

when i walk him currently i tug the choke chain and say no. he then pulls again but i think he could be learning. hopefully he will get better at it soon and stop killing himself by choking and panting. Thanks for the advice.


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## mandymmr (May 22, 2009)

hitman07 said:


> when i walk him currently i tug the choke chain and say no. he then pulls again but i think he could be learning. hopefully he will get better at it soon and stop killing himself by choking and panting. Thanks for the advice.


When you do tug and say no does he ease up a little? If yes then he is getting it, and will just need to be reminded occationally with the tugs.


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

I don't know if I would have gone with the choke. he is pretty young (just MO). a choke chain is hard to use right. *if used right, then yes, it should work pretty fast.* the way you are describing what you are doing sounds like it isnt the right way. the choke is for a quick snap and release to get his attention on you. 
just research it, and you will get some good tips. 
http://www.dog-training-academy.com/news/choker-chain.htm


> How to use a choke chain
> 
> A choke chain must be jerked quickly and released immediately. It is meant to grab the dog’s attention and surprise it too. It must not be held too tightly. It could cause slow strangulation if the dog is held for too long and dragged around by it. This is really cruel!
> 
> ...


good luck training! (I would bring treats along on the walk and treat him when he is walking right!)


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## hitman07 (Jan 5, 2009)

He is the type of dog that once you pull the choke chain he is pulling back again straight away. what am i doing wrong? How long should my leash be on the end of the choke chain?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

it is generally advisable not to use corrective measures before the dog has full comprehension of what he is supposed to do. 

also question..how big is this dog?


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## mandymmr (May 22, 2009)

you want the choker to be like a slip knot. The leash shold be on the end that allows it to tighten and loosen.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I would use a pinch collar, as well. Despite appearances, it is easier on the dog. That's because it generally works quicker, ergo, fewer overall corrections. Used properly, a pinch collar should produce almost immediate improvement. Improvement is not the same as a cure, however. That takes consistency and repetition. With regular, appropriate application, you should be seeing a reasonable facsimile of heeling within the week.


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## hitman07 (Jan 5, 2009)

dog is about 2 feet tall. can you tell me what the wrong way is to put the choker on?


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

hitman07 said:


> He is the type of dog that once you pull the choke chain he is pulling back again straight away. what am i doing wrong? How long should my leash be on the end of the choke chain?


maybe you should have him sit, treat, tell him to heel, and when he pulls, yank and release, then if it continues, have him sit again. it might work for your dog. every dog is different. my previous dog wouldn't stop until we put a gentle leader (head harness) on him.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

I would use a pinch collar. When using the choke, the point is not a constrict the collar. I would use a pinch, because, when the dog stops pulling, the collar will loosen. Plus, it won't choke the dog.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Try to think of it from a different perspective.....if your dog had no collar and no leash at all how would you teach him where to walk with you? 

That's the important part....actually showing the dog precisely where to walk....at your side, behind you, slightly ahead? You'd do that by heavily rewarding the dog every time they came into the position you wanted.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

That's true...


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

This page has a picture of how it's supposed to be used. In the picture, the section moving through the loop should lay across the top of the dog's neck. 

Have you tried a no-pull harness? I worked with a choke collar, prong collar and regular collar and finally the no-pull harness is what worked for my puller.


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## bigblackdogs (May 28, 2009)

that no pull harness is excellent. it turned my friend's 75# puller into an expert heeler (is that a word?). of course, you would still need to train your dog. none of these corrective collars/harnesses will work without some positive training with it like TooneyDogs said.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I would use a pinch collar, as well. Despite appearances, it is easier on the dog. That's because it generally works quicker, ergo, fewer overall corrections. Used properly, a pinch collar should produce almost immediate improvement. Improvement is not the same as a cure, however. That takes consistency and repetition. With regular, appropriate application, you should be seeing a reasonable facsimile of heeling within the week.


Same here. 

Pinch is what I recommend for strong pullers. They work much better than a slip collar.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

hitman07 said:


> How long would it take before seeing any improvement after using a choke chain to stop my dog from pulling on the leash?
> Are we talking weeks or months or longer?
> 
> thanks


I use a pinch collar for walks, she doesn't choke herself like she does on a choker-chain and she is very well behaved!


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

hitman07 said:


> He is the type of dog that once you pull the choke chain he is pulling back again straight away. what am i doing wrong? How long should my leash be on the end of the choke chain?


I don't like aversive training methods or tools, so I do not use this type of collar, preferring, instead, to teach my dog to walk along side of me without using a collar at all while inside the house, where there are no distractions, then out in the back yard. I then add the leash inside the house, out in the back yard, the front yard, then down the sidewalk, before ever going out and about in the community. The first step is to get, and keep your dog's attention. Next, you need a training plan, so you know what steps you need to take to achieve the end goal. And remember, training should be fun for both of you! 

You need to be shown how to properly use this slip collar, or "choke chain," before you attempt to use it, because it can injure your dog's trachea. In addition, timing is everything, so my suggestion is to stop using it, at least for now. Enroll your dog in an obedience class, so that the trainer can teach you how to train your dog.


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## A2Z (Jul 6, 2009)

I've used both the slip and pinch collars on my dogs for walks and training.

I prefer the pinch collar for both.


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## ipreferpi (May 9, 2009)

Personally, I would be a little scared to use a pinch or a choke on such a young dog. But that's a choice everyone makes for themselves... Just as everyone has said, a pinch or a choke needs to be used correctly (ie. short, quick jerk, then release) otherwise you risk the possibility of a collapsed trachea. 

The easy walk harnesses are a really fantastic alternative to a pinch/choke collar, and can produce just as great of results without the risk to the dogs neck. Though what I've noticed is that on larger or more stubborn pullers, they don't work as well. In the same vein as the easy walk is the gentle leader head halter, which in my experience works better, at least for larger dogs as they can't get their whole body weight into the pull, and they jerk you around a lot less. You can get either the easy walk or the gentle leader at most pet stores, and the ones in my area will fit it on your dog in the store, and let you walk through the aisles to try it out. So maybe worth a try?


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

The time it might take to condition a dog to refrain from pulling using a physical aversive correction by way of a choke collar varies according to many factors. It can depend on the breed of dog ,age, neck structure, temperament, coat, attitude, relationship with the handler, tolerance level to discomfort/pain levels which includes highly over reactive/sensitive to having what is often referred to as having a “dead neck”,( a dog that has been tied out or has grown accustomed to having tension around it’s neck might require a higher aversive level in a force correction) handler presence , past associations/experiences with learning processes, health, skill and process style (for example) placement ,fit, type, and size of the tool, influential associated verbal and body/physical cues before and during administration/delivery in the attempted correction process, threshold level of correction (intensity of discomfort or pain), timing of jerk/pop/release, follow up response, and least but not last any mix of operant conditioning processes that might be added to the conditioning curve at any time before, during, or after the event.

I have seen even the best skilled trainers with lots of experience using a choke collar struggle with many dogs and not often when using a prong collar for this method of conditioning a dog not to pull while on leash. I have gone to seminars where the handler takes the worst of pullers both large and small and has the dogs heeling and walking on a loose leash in 10 minutes or less with a prong collar (taking into consideration all the many things possible in the process) 

I know you where not seeking advice on choosing to use a choke collar but I too would recommend a prong over a choke chain collar if I felt I had to use one or the other if not just for the fact that a prong collar is far less likely to cause injury to the trachea. Keep in mind any neck or head training collar (especially a GL) can cause harm/injury and result in failure depending on how they are used.

good luck!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

From the OP's remarks I have to say that he has not had anyone show him how a choke collar works or how to apply it correctly. A choke chain IS not MEANT to choke the dog and if used by letting the dog pull and then expecting the dog to stop because it is choking him it simply will not work. 
Using a choke on a dog that does not have basic LLW training or know how to heel already is setting him up to fail (and to damage his throat).
Lose the choke, they are just not meant for use in the average pet owner's hands. 

An easywalk harness is my recommendation. If you still want to use a collar, then go with a pinch collar (properly fitted by someone who knows what they are doing and have someone SHOW you how to use it)...I have used every tool on all sorts of different dogs and the easywalk is my go to tool. 

Even trainers who train using balanced methods don't use a choke on a dog before it's six months old and only then use it to enforce/correct on cues the dog ALREADY has been taught using positive reinforcement. 

Get thee to a good trainer.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

> Get thee to a good trainer.


And quick. A good trainer will be able to help you a lot more than any collar or forum can.


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## Teachadog (Jul 9, 2009)

You are not using this tool right, you need to go see a professional trainer, asap before you kill your dog or ruin him for life. This is why I encourage positive reinforcement tactics. At worst with corrective methods you can kill your dog, injure him, or break his spirit. At worst with positive reinforcement you have a fat disobedient dog, which can easily be fixed and brought around. I have fostered way too many dogs who have been trained improperly with prong or chain collars or e collars, especially from a young age. They are fearful and distressed. Many "out of control" dogs that have gotten too many treats in training are a lot easier to handle, you stop giving them treats and they listen lol. Everyone has their own opinion on dog training but why don't you try to go back to the basics in training? Sit, stay, down, recall, "watch me"? If you can get his patience and impluse control to about two minutes it's easier to train on lead. He can only go out the door if he is focused on you. He can only walk forward if he's not pulling. When he pulls turn in the opposite direction, THIS IS A QUICK WAY TO GET HIS ATTENTION WITHOUT HURTING HIM! And YES chain and prong collars cause pain, its quick pain but its pain. I am not a big fan of causing pain in a dog when you are trying to form a relationship and trust. If he pulls make him sit, make him down, make him "watch me". Redirect his attention, walk in different directions, use his favorite toy for praise so he knows its a fun game... the game of 'walk beside mommy/dadd'. Especially at such a young age why are you chosing to use pain as a motivator instead of pleasure/fun? Is that quicker, yes, but is that better, I think so. Build a relationship on trust and fun not on 'if you don't obey me then I will show you pain until you do obey me'. Just think about it, digest it, go see a trainer, please.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

> You are not using this tool right, you need to go see a professional trainer, asap before you *kill your dog or ruin him for life*. This is why I encourage positive reinforcement tactics. At worst with corrective methods you can *kill your dog, injure him, or break his spirit.*


Let's not blow this out of proportion, alright? It would be rather hard to kill, or even injure a dog with a slip collar or a pinch collar. That said, you should always have an experienced person show you how to use the collar. Not the pet store employees and not your friends.


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## Teachadog (Jul 9, 2009)

Corteo said:


> Let's not blow this out of proportion, alright? It would be rather hard to kill, or even injure a dog with a slip collar or a pinch collar. That said, you should always have an experienced person show you how to use the collar. Not the pet store employees and not your friends.


Yes, KILL. And if you are properly using a chain or prong it is hard but not impossible. I have heard of lots of cases in MA and surround RI where people have accidentally strangled their dog, pulled so hard that the prong actually punctured the dog... You are using a collar to quickly cut off air supply with vital, delicate parts and you think it's hard to injure the dog? How many collapsed windpipes do you think goes to the vets every year? When I volunteered at tufts (a major vet clinic/school here in MA) I saw 3-5 a week. Mosty people doing silly things like leaving the choke on all the time, or tying the dog out in a prong. Doesn't matter either way it is a tool that is over used and dangerous. I don't suggest things where a dog could be injured or worse. Please don't take things that cut off air supply or put pointed pressure on a dogs soft neck lightly. Dogs that pull need to be taught that its inappropriate, if you just don't let them pull you'd be surprised how quickly they get it instead of using tools that can injure your dog.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

> Mosty people doing silly things like leaving the choke on all the time, or tying the dog out in a prong.


Well if your doing that, sure it's easy to kill or injure the dog. However, we are not talking about idiots. If you use the tool correctly, the chances are microscopic that anything bad will happen.



> I don't suggest things where a dog could be injured or worse.


Well then, you must not suggest driving with your dog. Because, you could be the only person on the road, and you could still crash into something. However, the chances are small. The chances of killing or injuring a dog with a slip or pinch collar, when using to *right*, is just as small. What I'm trying to say, is that everything has a risk.



> Please don't take things that cut off air supply or put pointed pressure on a dogs soft neck lightly.


Oh I'm not.


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## Teachadog (Jul 9, 2009)

Corteo said:


> Well if your doing that, sure it's easy to kill or injure the dog. However, we are not talking about idiots. If you use the tool correctly, the chances are microscopic that anything bad will happen.
> 
> 
> Well then, you must not suggest driving with your dog. Because, you could be the only person on the road, and you could still crash into something. However, the chances are small. The chances of killing or injuring a dog with a slip or pinch collar, when using to *right*, is just as small. What I'm trying to say, is that everything has a risk.
> ...



I'm not going to start a debate, I know different trainers have different methods, everyone has their own view of what works and what doesn't. I don't see how you can compare driving a dog (which should be in a seat belt, crate or behind a barrier so they don't go through the windshield in case of an accident) is the same as using corrective tools. You can work with the dog with simply positive reinforcement, I'm not training my dog (unless if he is misbehaving) in the car, it is simply to get me from point A to B. Unless it's within two or three miles there is no other choice. There are plenty of alternitives to training tools, and you don't know how much education someone has. Don't ever just assume someone knows how to work a training tool or how not to abuse it. People will always surprise you. "oh my dog throws up on a walk because he's stupid and pulls on the chain collar" instead of "hmm maybe I'm doing something wrong?" Do not assume the chances are slim to none, they're not. If someone doesn't know to relase pressure then something will happen. How will they know that if they don't know how to use the tool properly? They just bought it and use it backwards or its too tight or too loose or god only knows what else. Or how about people who use prong collars with retractible leads? Talk about confusing the dog. 

Like I said, I don't want to let this escalate, we all have our own opinions, I just find that the more I train the less I like any training tools, even leashes and collars. If you can build trust without any restrictions you have a dog that will do anything for you. With the breed I own and foster if I used corrective methods I would not have any trust or worse. Field trainers have a saying, when training a golden don't use more than a harsh voice, when training a lab don't use more than a rolled up newspaper, when training a chessie don't use more than a steel pipe. Its that sort of mentality that gives them a reputation for being aggressive and dangerous. With love, trust and positive methods I have turned around dogs that would have otherwise been put down. Everyone has their opinion, I know this works for me and has worked for a lot of dogs, I'm sure your method works for you. I respect yours and I apperciate being on a forum where we can just disagree and move on.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

Alright. I also want to move on. Though I would like to clarifly briefly.



> I don't see how you can compare driving a dog


All I was trying to say is that you can injure the dog in a crash. Just because it's possibly doesn't mean you shouldn't drive.



> Don't ever just assume someone knows how to work a training tool or how not to abuse it.


Well, that's the reason that I said "That said, you should always have an experienced person show you how to use the collar. Not the pet store employees and not your friends." 



> I respect yours and I apperciate being on a forum where we can just disagree and move on.


And I respect yours.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Teachadog said:


> "When he pulls turn in the opposite direction, THIS IS A QUICK WAY TO GET HIS ATTENTION WITHOUT HURTING HIM!"
> 
> "If he pulls make him sit, make him down, make him "watch me". "
> 
> ...



I would suggest to the OP that if your primary *philosophy* in training is to never use force training methods ,cause stress, discomfort, injury, or harm to your dog then possibly you would not use the force training technique of turning and walking in the other direction as this method can and does cause discomfort and injury to a dog.

The force exerted against a dogs body , spine, neck, and trachea can be quite harmful and I have seen many times over the trauma/stress factor of a dog suddenly being propelled in the opposite direction especially without notice. I have seen small dogs being lifted off of their feet when being forced by the sudden dead tension to move into the opposite direction.


I am not sure how anyone can always prevent a dog from pulling initially and how one would "make" a dog sit or down without force if it chooses not to.

And as far as possible harmful effects of using only positive reinforcement *only* in conditioning some of the really serious dog behaviors I have knowledge having worked in many rescue situations where many dogs are given up on and placed into bad situations because the primary focus to use only positive reinforcement was not working to solve the situation. I know of many dogs who are put to sleep every year because of failed approaches (regardless of type of approach) at resolving behavioral issues.


Even non prong and choke collars (especially the gentle leader ) can be used improperly or cause stress,injury, and harm depending how they are used to include the improper use of positive reinforcement and positive punishment/force training.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

I can get my dogs to respond to the choke in about 5-10 mins depending on what I'm asking them to do, but keep in mind I've been taught how to properly use a choke in professional training classes. A choke chain, and any collar for that matter, is meerly a tool and only as good as the trainer; They are not magical devices that make your dogs perfect. If ou've never been taught how to properly use a choke, or other training collar, by a professional trainer then DO NOT USE them until you have. The best thing owners can do for thier dogs and thier own peace of mind is to join a professional training course and learn the basics of training your dog without the trial and error process that can have severly adverse affects.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

After reading some of the replies on thread If I was a new dog owner it would scare me half to death to use any collar or training aid of any kind. I don't think that people understand that there are not competent dog trainers around every corner and they keep throwing the go to trainers info at them. 

The way some talk is put a collar of any kind on your dog and your dog will die, either you will break dog's neck or the dog will have a heart attack as you approach with a training collar and die before collar touches them.

I've spent close to 50 yrs training dogs and I started with the choke collar as it was the weapon of choice then. I did e-collar work, and the last 20 yrs just prong collar work. The only collar that I stopped using is the choke collar, at least 30 yrs
ago of no choke collar work. That was my personal choice, the truth is many people use them and like them. I prefer a martingale collar adjusted so it does not choke. 

Yes please get instructions if you can, If no trainers are available please have the sense doG gave a goose and refrain from separating the dog's head from the dog's shoulders. I'm sure that there are amateurs on DF that have used choke or prong collars and gotten good results from their work. My opinion only.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Well one thing is for sure the choke chain will not produce anything positive until it is used correctly. I see people all the time who think it's as simple as putting the collar on the dog and walking, there's definitely more to it. You need to know when to give a tug and when to praise and definitely how to put it on the dog. I've found that despite their appearance prong collars work much better with most dogs though they aren't as portable (a choke chain can slip off and fit in your pocket) and prongs are more expensive but definitely worth it in the long run. I first used a choke chain on a BC mix I had a few years back and used it correctly and it worked for the most part but at the beginning of each walk even after a week of using the choke chain she would still try to pull with all her strength but by the time we got home she was walking perfectly. I think maybe I just had a stubborn dog  but we tried the prong collar and it worked great and eventually I was able to reliably walk her with a flat buckle collar and her not pull. I highly recommend the use of a prong collar over a choke chain.


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## A2Z (Jul 6, 2009)

I wanted to revisit this thread as I picked up and use a Gentle leader today for the first time.

This is quite a nice tool. I adjusted it and used it correctly for the corrections and it has worked beautifully. I've had to correct very little while using it.


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## RandStrauss (Jun 24, 2009)

I used to use pinch collars with my dogs for training. Since I found the no-pull harness, I use that exclusively. 

I also tend to avoid vet clinics where the tech uses a choke collar immediately upon being called to the exam room. I ran into a problem with one clinic where the vet was really rough and the tech that I knew would often complain that the vet would come very close to beating the animals into submission.

The vet I use now has separate alcoves for animals in the waiting room, allows me to walk my pup to the exam room and I'm present during any procedures.

For me, the harness and positive reinforcement serve my dogs well. Your results may differ.


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## A2Z (Jul 6, 2009)

RandStrauss said:


> I used to use pinch collars with my dogs for training. Since I found the no-pull harness, I use that exclusively.
> 
> I also tend to avoid vet clinics where the tech uses a choke collar immediately upon being called to the exam room. I ran into a problem with one clinic where the vet was really rough and the tech that I knew would often complain that the vet would come very close to beating the animals into submission.
> 
> ...


I have now found that the martingale collars were increasing the tension with both of my dogs.

The gentle leader + regular collar is working very well for both of them. No pulling, little correction needed and no aggression. 

I start out with the gentle leader and the regular collar, the leash being attached to both. 1/2 way through the walk I unclip the gentle leader and then 2/3 of the way I remove it all together.

So far so good and I realize now where I was making mistakes.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

hitman07 said:


> dog is about 2 feet tall. can you tell me what the wrong way is to put the choker on?


When you hold the collar up it should form the letter P. With the dog in front of you, slip the collar over his head. This is the correct way.

ETA: sitting in front of you _facing_ you.


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## baorb (Mar 14, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Fx0WTC1NpI

Really depends on your dog.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Proper placement first depends on which side of the dog you will be on when having the dog on leash. The choke chain collar depending on its design can lock down in the choke mode and not release if tension is placed on the leash/collar depending on which side the collar connects to the leash.. If the dog crosses over in front of you and the leash becomes tight the dog could choke. 



Some people want the collar up high on the dogs neck when delivering a correction and others do not share this perspective. Much of the effect of the collar as a correction based tool (and thus the placement/style) can depend on the breed of the dog and its temperment and reaction to such aversives.


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## German Shep mom (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree to try a pinch collar or gentle leader...choke collars just literally choke the dog, and as awful as the pinch looks, its so much more effective and mimics what wolves do in the wild, the alpha bites the neck to correct behavior- so its in their dna to respond to a pinch on the neck.
My german shep used to choke herself terrible on the choke and then I learned how to use a pinch with a trainer- I highly recommend you get professional training with the pinch or gentle leader, because if not fitted properly or misused it could be another difficult time. Good luck!


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