# Use of Prong Collar on Puppy



## BraxtonsMom (Mar 2, 2012)

Wondering what opinions are?


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

WOW, I'm no expert, and I personally have no problem with aversives if they are used correctly if truly necessary, but a 16 week old puppy!! I'd boot that trainer out of my house personally and tell them never to come back. 
That's just my opinion though....I'm sure others will chime in. I expect their opinions will be similar to mine though!
As for paying a trainer....you could probably do a lot of it on your own, at least for the first while and invest in a trainer later. There are a lot of resources here and a lot of people willing to help. I am also a big fan of the group classes since they help train your dog while there are distractions like other dogs and people (its been a big help to us anyway). 
Good luck, let us know what you decide to do.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

A pinch collar is a correction tool. We never use a correction collar on a puppy. A correction collar is used for just what it says -* corrections*. A 16 week old is much too young for corrections. At this point in your pup's life, you should be training basic behavior and socializing.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

BraxtonsMom said:


> I paid a trainer a LOT of money to come to my house and help teach us how to train our puppy. I am admittedly a newbie when it comes to dogs, so I figures I wanted to do things right with this pup.
> 
> My puppy is 16 weeks old and she has us using a prong collar on him. I don't think it's mean or anything, but when the collar is on, the pup just lays there - he won't move, let alone do anything wrong, so there are no moments to even correct him.
> 
> Just looking for some opinions and thoughts on this method. Thanks!


*I am a long time prong collar trainer *and I would not put a prong on a 16 week old pup, Your trainer evidently "is not the brightest bulb in the box" How long did she read the pup before she jumped in with a prong collar.

More info, what did the trainer do when the pup would not move. One last question did you have your pup lead broke. (walking on a lead)


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Simply, get a new trainer.


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## BraxtonsMom (Mar 2, 2012)

I kind of thought as much....


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## BraxtonsMom (Mar 2, 2012)

To answer your question, he does walk on a leash for me - pretty well, actually


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Please forgive me, but if a trainer put a prong on your puppy for growling, they are even more stupid than I thought.


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## BraxtonsMom (Mar 2, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> Please forgive me, but if a trainer put a prong on your puppy for growling, they are even more stupid than I thought.


I would love any advice you have for helping us train him not to growl or show any aggression. I realize he is a pup and is trying to assert himself and find his place in our family, I just need to make suer I do the right thing so that he realizes that while we love him, he is not on the same level - or better than - the kids. Thanks


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> If the pup is happily laying in his bed chewing a toy and my son (I have 3 boys 11, 9 & 6) goes to pet him, sometimes he will growl - he has never snapped, just growled, but that is not acceptable. Also, he used to growl when he was sitting with me and my son would come join us - however, he hasn't done this is several days.


This sounds like resource guarding to me. There is a sticky on that plus a number of threads with tips.

You do NOT want to train the dog not to growl though. A growl is a warning sign. You want him to warn you when he is stressed or annoyed. What you are aiming for is making it so he doesn't feel the need to guard things or to be annoyed.


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## BraxtonsMom (Mar 2, 2012)

Shell said:


> This sounds like resource guarding to me. There is a sticky on that plus a number of threads with tips.
> 
> You do NOT want to train the dog not to growl though. A growl is a warning sign. You want him to warn you when he is stressed or annoyed. What you are aiming for is making it so he doesn't feel the need to guard things or to be annoyed.


I agree - I will look that up. Thanks!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

The help you need may exceed what the forum can do for you. Your pup isn't trying to be mean or rule the world. Your puppy is communicating discomfort. Building up the pups confidence and giving your puppy a way to retreat from your kids when he wants space is what is important. Punishing the growling may force him to show no discomfort and then just bite out of total frustration. If your puppy is over-whelmed, how is he able to show it? He needs to be able to tell you.

Your puppy may be fearful. Your puppy may be bold. I can't read this in your post. We need to know so much more before we can help you. We would need to see the dog in action.

You have done several brilliant things. First, you got help. Second, you listened to your insticts about the helper being maybe incompetent. I would try another trainer. I would read Jean Donaldson's "Mine!" But really, I would try to find a new and decent trainer to help me.

Try to think of growling as your pup trying to tell you something. Try not to think of growling as a challenge of your authority. What you need to know is WHY is your pup growling. If it's fear, build his confidence. If it's resource guarding, work trades. If he wants space, learn his boundries and try to get him more comfortable with contact by pairing it with reinforcers.

This is probably too complex for a forum, but everything I have read makes me think you need someone else.


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## BraxtonsMom (Mar 2, 2012)

Braxton, is a sweet pup, very playful and affectionate. He has only been with us 3 weeks, and I see improvements in his behavior every day. Let me ask you this, is it unreasonable for me to think that he will never growl at my kids? I am just wondering if my expectation at this point are unrealistic. 

He is fearful of people he does not know and he is very fearful of men (loves my husband, though it did take a few days). He is not fearful of loud noises, the vacuum - my household is very active and he seems very comfortable here. Again, maybe he just needs time and I am getting too nervous too soon.

Thoughts?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

BraxtonsMom said:


> Yes, that trainer was a very expensive mistake, and I will look into other trainers for sure.
> 
> Braxton, is a sweet pup, very playful and affectionate. He has only been with us 3 weeks, and I see improvements in his behavior every day. Let me ask you this, is it unreasonable for me to think that he will never growl at my kids? I am just wondering if my expectation at this point are unrealistic.
> 
> ...


3 weeks in home is not enough with many pups relax and supervise children. Definitely dump trainer. I once had a plumber that should not have been allowed near a pipe or monkey wrench. I dumped him pretty quick.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Dogs communicate by growling, barking, etc. So, IMO, it is unrealistic to expect a dog never to growl, same as it would be unrealisitc to expect a dog never to bark. That would be like expecting a person to never say "hey, stop doing that/go away!" when somebody is annoying them or getting in their personal space. I think that if you work on the resource guarding, building trust that nobody will be taking his things away from him, you can get him comfortable with having the kids around his stuff so he won't feel like he has to growl about that, but there will always be something he may have to growl about.


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## BraxtonsMom (Mar 2, 2012)

wvasko said:


> 3 weeks in home is not enough with many pups relax and supervise children. Definitely dump trainer. I once had a plumber that should not have been allowed near a pipe or monkey wrench. I dumped him pretty quick.


 Thank you! I really need the reassurance. 

When I was a kid, we got a puppy and because he was never trained properly, my parents ended up getting rid of him - I was so upset by that, that I am determined to integrate this little guy into our family. I waited until by boys were old enough and I was still home FT, before getting a dog. I think I will try to relax a bit, keep up the socialization and training, and look into a new trainer.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I agree that you need a new trainer, the puppy is new and likely uncomfortable and probably is resource guarding, which is really treatable. Look at it from the pup's point of view: He got dumped with no warning in this totally new environment with total strangers and he has no idea what to do. It would be like if I stuffed you in a sack and dropped you off in the middle of China (assuming you don't speak Chinese). I bet you'd be pretty confused and fearful, too.

Growling is a good thing. Growling is giving you a chance to back off before he bites. You want that warning. Growling, in and of itself, is not aggressive. It is a warning of future aggressive behavior and thus should never be punished.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

I think the only way you can expect your dog to never growl at your children is if your children never give him cause to growl. I agree that this sounds like resource guarding (of his toys, and previously of you). As others have said, growling is a piece of communication, not aggression. I would find a trainer who uses positive-only methods. You want him to feel comfortable and safe in your house and with your kids, not to feel like he's forbidden to communicate his discomfort. I think part of that will come with time, but I would also find a good trainer in the meantime.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

It was a mistake but it wasn't your fault. Do get a new behaviourist/trainer while pup is still young. Putting a prong on such young and fearful pup is like sending a 6 year old that wets his bed for some military SAS training. This pup should have *no collar* on him while fearful, no leash, no nothing. Socialisation process should be consisted of food, toys, play and physical interaction - no need for leashes.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Find a different (positive reinforcement based) trainer.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

BraxtonsMom said:


> Yes, that trainer was a very expensive mistake, and I will look into other trainers for sure.
> 
> Let me ask you this, is it unreasonable for me to think that he will never growl at my kids? I am just wondering if my expectation at this point are unrealistic.


Some of that depends on the kids and what they do. I would try to find a trainer who will work with the whole family - including teaching the children the basics of how to approach a dog (no hard eye contact, no hugging, no kissing, and teaching all of you how to read the dog's minor signals of discomfort so he doesn't need to growl.


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## stacey101 (Sep 20, 2010)

Prong collars are terrible, pain is no way to train an animal. To be used on a puppy, that trainer needs a kick.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think we've beaten that horse to death  So, I'll try not to repeat...

1. What breed of puppy? ... I'm wearing Labrador -filtered glasses.
2. Growling is OK for a young puppy, it is trainable. Playful nipping is OK, it is trainable. Growling and snapping require help.
3. If he has all shots, you might try something like PetsMart. They aren't the best, but they're cheap and you learn some basics.
4. When you ask about the next trainer, ask about using treats, clickers, positive methods, following Cesar Millan.... If they say yes to all, then look elsewhere, because the last was a trick question - Cesar is not a positive trainer. He uses "pack theory and alpha methods" which are no longer seen as the best methods.
5. In contrast to some folks, I believe that a puppy should gradually learn not to resource guard anything, including food. Therefore, if he dog is eating a steak and a toddler walks up and pulls it away, the dog will not complain... He may try to keep eating, but he will not hurt the child. It's interesting, but the best examples I've seen were Rotts and Pits... they were willing to share  But, you have to train the dog that the world is a place of plenty, not of scarcity... and that takes gentle repetition. 
6. Download and read these two free books: http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads
If you know anyone with a Lab, ask them to come look at your pup (assuming you have a Lab... change advice for correct breed.)


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

prong on a 16 week old? The trainer insane? I won't use one on my 15 month old!


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## BraxtonsMom (Mar 2, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> I think we've beaten that horse to death  So, I'll try not to repeat...
> 
> 1. What breed of puppy? ... I'm wearing Labrador -filtered glasses.
> 2. Growling is OK for a young puppy, it is trainable. Playful nipping is OK, it is trainable. Growling and snapping require help.
> ...


Our pup is a dachshund mix - mom was dachshund and pug and dad was completely unknown.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I can't believe any trainer would put a prong collar on a pup like yours. All he should have on at this age is a flat leather or nylon collar. With my small dogs I have always started out with a harness as they seem more comfortable in them.

I completely disagreed when the one obedience class I was in, the trainer put a prong collar on a Pitty puppy (just because it was a Pit). It was about six months old so was bouncing all over like puppies do, certainly did not need that collar!


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## chocolabs (Mar 3, 2012)

Prong collars look barbaric, seriously your dog is at a prime age to learn whatever you have to show him. If he's growling it means shes stressed about something, if its about the kids, I'm sure its because they are so enthusiastic to meet him and play with him that it scares him. When he growls, you need to think about the situation and whats causing it, remove him from it, and then gradually teach him its ok and safe, and he doesn't have to be scared. Remember your dog is most impressionable and eager to learn now, so take advantage of it. And like everyone else said, dump the trainer.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

BraxtonsMom said:


> I don't think it's mean or anything, but when the collar is on, the pup just lays there - he won't move, let alone do anything wrong, so there are no moments to even correct him.


Darn tootin', it's mean. Just look at the reaction of the dog. Based on what I assume is a very limited previous exposure / introduction / use, regardless it's now at the point where he is completely shut down by the mere placement of the prong collar on him. That should never happen to a 16 week pup. NEVER, ... EVER, ... not even with an adolescent or adult dog.

In my opinion, this dog is obviously not a good candidate for any future implementation of such devices. But that's ok ... he can learn EVERTHING he ever needs to know in life, by way of a flat collar and R+ training methods.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Find a different trainer!

For the kids, for now, arm them with good treats, and have them just go up to the puppy, drop the treat a few feet away, and walk away. No eye contact, no rushing up, if they can walk an arc and drop the treats even better. An xpen would be a good tool to use if they're really young, so they can't rush up to him and puppy can feel safe in his space. Growling is fine, but means 'get away' so teach the boys that rule. They can also take turns feeding him his dinner, in small scoops if needed if he's ok with that. Put up all the toys and chews, and make a point of having the boys get a toy out and giving it to puppy, then later a different toy (you can quietly return the unused toys to the basket or wherever) so he starts to see the boys as a source of food and toys. They may not be old enough to walk him but include them on walks and such too.

You can work on toys and treats and trading back and forth, show him a treat and hold his toy while he eats it, then give him the toy back, dropping another treat with the toy, and so on. Make it all about the food and good things, as in those kids bring him good things and eventually have them do this sort of trading if they're old enough to understand it.

My three year old human kid is responsible for always feeding my dogs, so of course she's quite popular with them! About ten times a day she'll point out that the dogs/cats are hungry and take it upon herself to feed them her food (off the spoon in some cases) or get out some cookies and give them all more and more. My son is six and he'll 'train' them at times, same thing, tons of food so they don't mind kids at all.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Enough opinions ?


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

My 6 month old german shepherd just graduated from her second puppy class and we are not allowed to use prong collars there but in my search to continue her education after she finishes her third class I have found a german shepherd club that uses only prongs and also another trainer in the area that only uses prongs. I went and got one for her but I'm not to sure about it. I will have to see what it does when we try it. If I don't like it then I will continue looking for another trainer. As far as your dog goes...get the pup into some kind of classes..socialization is the key to a good pup.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

luvmyfurballs said:


> My 6 month old german shepherd just graduated from her second puppy class and we are not allowed to use prong collars there but in my search to continue her education after she finishes her third class I have found a german shepherd club that uses only prongs and also another trainer in the area that only uses prongs. I went and got one for her but I'm not to sure about it. I will have to see what it does when we try it. If I don't like it then I will continue looking for another trainer. As far as your dog goes...get the pup into some kind of classes..socialization is the key to a good pup.


How is she progressing in training without a prong? I don't see any reason to use a prong on every single dog in a class just because it's the only way someone knows how to train. I know quite a few GSDs and related breeds competing in advanced venues who never saw a prong or any other type of correction collar. All are fabulously trained and incredibly behaved.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Lindbert said:


> How is she progressing in training without a prong? I don't see any reason to use a prong on every single dog in a class just because it's the only way someone knows how to train. I know quite a few GSDs and related breeds competing in advanced venues who never saw a prong or any other type of correction collar. All are fabulously trained and incredibly behaved.


Interesting, but look at it this way, you must find the dog specialist that fits your dog's needs. Why not, if you go to a Dr now you must go to a heart specialist or a finger specialist or whatever type specialist needed maybe that's the direction dog training is going  

Yesterday somebody on different noted that some trainers are breed oriented or breed snobs would they not be breed specialists. Just throwing this out to stir the pot and the fact that I remember Doctors that treated pretty much everything.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Interesting, but look at it this way, you must find the dog specialist that fits your dog's needs. Why not, if you go to a Dr now you must go to a heart specialist or a finger specialist or whatever type specialist needed maybe that's the direction dog training is going
> 
> Yesterday somebody on different noted that some trainers are breed oriented or breed snobs would they not be breed specialists. Just throwing this out to stir the pot and the fact that I remember Doctors that treated pretty much everything.


I think there is a time and place to seek help from a specialist in health and in dog training. You have a cold? A PCP can take care of that, no need to see an infectious disease specialist. You have some foreign tropical disease? Probably should see that ID specialist. Then there's the gray area. Some people with Lyme Disease can be successfully treated by their PCP where some need to see an ID specialist after unsuccessful treatment by the PCP. 

Let's compare that to dogs. There are trainers that dabble in a little bit of everything: Pet training, some sports, some behavior stuff. They're generally good for teaching manners and maybe helping with some minor problems and teaching you how to do a sport for fun (like agility for fun). There are trainers that choose to learn all they can about one specific area. If you have a dog that needs to learn manners, I don't see a need to find a trainer that has extensive behavior credentials, tons of agility and conformation handling experience, etc. If you want to seriously compete in a sport, you should find someone who has a ton of experience and titles in that venue. If you have a dog that wants to eat people, you probably should find someone who focuses on working with behavior problems. If you have a dog that is mildly reactive, you can probably get help from that jack of all trades trainer, but if that's not working find someone more suited to help a dog with behavior issues. A dog that likes to knock over the trash can most certainly be helped by the manners (jack of all trades) type of trainer since it is such a benign issue.

My whole issue is that I am not a huge fan of trainers that will by default put all dogs in some sort of training equipment just because they're in the class. It doesn't matter if it's a prong collar, e-collar, gentle leader, or an easy walk harness, I think tools should be used only if there is a need for it that extends beyond the trainer doesn't know how to train without it. If you're having success without the tool, why not continue doing what has been working?


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> My whole issue is that I am not a huge fan of trainers that will by default put all dogs in some sort of training equipment just because they're in the class.


Your point is apparent in this thread. Many trainers... hm, no - people are close minded and consider their method the only and the best method.

I tend not to compare dogs to humans as I always end up people asking me "What would Jesus do?". Pretty soon any discussion becomes super weird...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> A dog that likes to knock over the trash can most certainly be helped by the manners (jack of all trades) type of trainer since it is such a benign issue.


Exactly, I have mentioned more than a few times that when in bird dogs I was a trainer, I am now a blacksmith or jack of all trades person.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

Lindbert said:


> How is she progressing in training without a prong? I don't see any reason to use a prong on every single dog in a class just because it's the only way someone knows how to train. I know quite a few GSDs and related breeds competing in advanced venues who never saw a prong or any other type of correction collar. All are fabulously trained and incredibly behaved.



She is the only one in her class that isn't using the assistance of a easy walk harness, gentle leader, etc. I'd have to say for six months she has done amazing on a flat collar and people always comment on how well behaved she is. When I went to the german shepherd club, I had the prong on, but it was really loose--they didn't notice until the end Anyway the shepherds there were mostly reactive and a couple had muzzles on which made me uncomfortable because my dog is nothing like that.


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