# Using a water bottle for teaching dog to stop pulling on leash?



## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

Some of you might remember from when i posted a thread on this topic a little while ago, but we had been having a lot of trouble training our dog not to pull on leash. For months we had tried positive methods in turning the dog around when she pulled, stopping when she pulled, etc. Earlier we had tried a martingale collar but then switched to a gentle leader harness. Anyway, she did improve a little but not that much and started doing this thing where she would be walking along and then would stop and refuse to move several times when we got to the part of the walk where there were rabbits around. I had also tried the method of clicking and treating her every time she was in the right position.

My mum recently decided to do away with the positive methods saying that you always need to have firmness along with the positive and started to take a water bottle on every walk, splashing the water on the dog or in front of Misty every time she went to go ahead. after about a week or two of this every day, she says that Misty now walks perfectly by her side, even when she sees a rabbit running in front of them.

I'm just wondering what you guys think of this method, whether you've used it before, how effective you think it is etc. The problem is, I'm a big advocate of positive only training but all I can think of in response to this outcome is that Misty is only walking properly because she is being forced to rather than actually wanting to, and will have lost trust in the handler.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> I'm just wondering what you guys think of this method, whether you've used it before, how effective you think it is etc.


Well, your mom claims it's effective. So. 

I've never used it before, personally. My general go-to method is something similar to this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5il8ym0ymY It's a novel way to build desire in the dog without resorting to aversive measures like be a tree, turning around, using martingales or head collars, or squirting water. The keys here are twofold. One, you're utilizing the dog's CHOICE to walk politely in position, and two you are establishing a STRONG history of reinforcement in an environment where there is no actual destination so-to-speak. Once that occurs then you can progress to more challenging situations, with distractions etc . I'd also work separately and statically on a default, uncued "leave it" as well. 

But you're right, there's a really good chance that your dog will lose trust in the handler. That's usually part and parcel when fear and intimidation are used.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> Some of you might remember from when i posted a thread on this topic a little while ago, but we had been having a lot of trouble training our dog not to pull on leash. For months we had tried positive methods in turning the dog around when she pulled, stopping when she pulled, etc. Earlier we had tried a martingale collar but then switched to a gentle leader harness. Anyway, she did improve a little but not that much and started doing this thing where she would be walking along and then would stop and refuse to move several times when we got to the part of the walk where there were rabbits around. I had also tried the method of clicking and treating her every time she was in the right position.
> 
> My mum recently decided to do away with the positive methods saying that you always need to have firmness along with the positive and started to take a water bottle on every walk, splashing the water on the dog or in front of Misty every time she went to go ahead. after about a week or two of this every day, she says that Misty now walks perfectly by her side, even when she sees a rabbit running in front of them.
> 
> I'm just wondering what you guys think of this method, whether you've used it before, how effective you think it is etc. The problem is, I'm a big advocate of positive only training but all I can think of in response to this outcome is that Misty is only walking properly because she is being forced to rather than actually wanting to, and will have lost trust in the handler.


I think this method is going to make your dog distrust your mom and dislike walks. Both not good things.

She probably started refusing to walk with the GL on during the part of your walk with rabbits because she learned that she gets punished by the GL on that portion of the walk in particular. 

Also, turning around and stopping when the dog pulls are not *positive* training methods. They just aren't highly negative. The only 100% positive method I know to teach a good llw is to use treats and lure the dog into position with treats. You also randomly treat the dog for paying attention to you, making eye contact and for staying at your side.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

When I worked at the daycamp I used a water bottle at times when I needed to break up a pair of dogs or to distract a dog from getting into mischief...I would also periodically hose the area in front of the fence as crowd control if we were oytside because if dogs crowded the fence they could fight. Wasn't an effective long term solution.

I saw my coworkers would frequently brandish the bottle like a weapon which isinappropriate.

The spray bottle should be invisble like a treat. If your dog likes and thinks its a fun toy, more so. If its a punishment your dog shouldn't even see the bottle because they'll figure it out lol.

But results from the spray bottle weren't long lasting unless the dog liked to play with it, in which case it was a high value reward.

I think you could use the spray bottle method for keeping a dog off of furniture or a counter as long as the dog never sees the spray bottle. But for leash walking, no way. Not unless your dog likes it. You're not going to be able to control your dog and use the spray bottle.You almost definitely wont able to hide it from them. Only use in leash walking would be as a toy, or to dispense water.

I would only expect long term results if your dog also gets rewarded for being correctly positioned and has ample time to get used to walking at heel 100% of the time. And that means she would need to go without getting a correction for a loooong time.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Having spent YEARS counter-conditioning a dog with a strong fear of water to be OK with bathes and wading in shallow creeks, I wouldn't use a spray bottle or hose as ANY form of correction in dog training.


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## esuastegui (Aug 8, 2016)

Shell said:


> Having spent YEARS counter-conditioning a dog with a strong fear of water to be OK with bathes and wading in shallow creeks, I wouldn't use a spray bottle or hose as ANY form of correction in dog training.


Yup. That would be my concern as well. My recently adopted puppy runs the instant I grab the hose to water plants. So looking forward to her first bath. I'm still drafting the big "thank you" card I'm going to send to her previous owners for disciplining her with a hose (which they didn't admit to, but is patently obvious). Good news: she no longer fears when I go latch the leash on her, like she did, because, of course, she was tied to a tree for long periods of time.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

I hadn't thought about that, but come to think of it I had one dog at work who would attack any and all cleaning supplies...like mops, spray bottles, squeegies, etc...and if your dog is particularly stubborn that's a horrible problem to have.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

esuastegui said:


> Yup. That would be my concern as well. My recently adopted puppy runs the instant I grab the hose to water plants. So looking forward to her first bath. I'm still drafting the big "thank you" card I'm going to send to her previous owners for disciplining her with a hose (which they didn't admit to, but is patently obvious). Good news: she no longer fears when I go latch the leash on her, like she did, because, of course, she was tied to a tree for long periods of time.


In Chester's case, his fear of water was more generalized after a traumatic experience of falling through ice into a lake. I count as a great success that he willingly and happily wades in water over his ankles now. On the upside at least, he did not have associations of water used by a person as a correction so I could coax him into more and more interaction with water. 

Also having played with a foster dog who LOVES water, it was nice to have the option of using a hose or spray for play and cooling off in the heat (she also loved to jump into decorative fountains and the baby pool was like a drug to her how happy it made it)


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Can harsher methods of correction be effective? Sure. Do they create happy, confident dogs? Not usually. Just because something works doesn't mean it's the right way to do it. There are any number of reasons why corrections using water (spray bottle, water bottle, hose, etc.) are a bad idea. And you don't know what the long-term effects may be. But you can only do what you can do - if it's not YOUR dog and you're not the one primarily responsible for the training, then all you can do is express your opinion.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

I agree with the others. Your mum's method may be working, but it's not the best solution to the problem and could result in the dog having other issues.

How long have you had your dog and how long have you been trying loose leash walking? The reason I ask is that it took me MONTHS to get Pepper to llw. I mostly was doing the click and treat whenever she was in the right position, which ended being a LOT of treats because as soon as she would get one, she'd pull ahead again. I did try reversing direction when she would get ahead of me, but she got too big it became difficult. We started training her at a few months old and it wasn't until almost a year old that it was like a light bulb suddenly came on and she got it! I was quite surprised.

I think a few things I did helped:
1. I started walking the same route every time. That way it wasn't so exciting; she'd already sniffed every stick and post and she knew what was coming up.
2. I started walking her early in the morning when we were less likely to run into any other person or dog.
3. When she finally "got it", the mornings were a bit dark. I think this helped because she couldn't see very far ahead.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Yeah I feel like so often I hear of people saying "THIS <insert method> didn't work" and go on to try a different, harsher method of training. It's like a crash diet - it might be faster, and you'll see results that make you think IT'S WORKING! But it's not healthy. The biggest problem I see is the lack of patience on the part of the trainer. Proper training TAKES TIME. And consistency. But mostly, time. Every dog is different and learns at their own pace. I feel like most of the folks that change methods to those such as the above are the ones that simply haven't taken the time to do it properly. Patience is a HUGE factor in training, and a lot of people simply don't have it. So they do something that "fixes" the problem much more quickly. You're basically treating the symptoms instead of the root cause.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

TGKvr said:


> Yeah I feel like so often I hear of people saying "THIS <insert method> didn't work" and go on to try a different, harsher method of training. It's like a crash diet - it might be faster, and you'll see results that make you think IT'S WORKING! But it's not healthy.


This is such a great analogy!


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## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> I think this method is going to make your dog distrust your mom and dislike walks. Both not good things.
> 
> She probably started refusing to walk with the GL on during the part of your walk with rabbits because she learned that she gets punished by the GL on that portion of the walk in particular.
> 
> Also, turning around and stopping when the dog pulls are not *positive* training methods. They just aren't highly negative. The only 100% positive method I know to teach a good llw is to use treats and lure the dog into position with treats. You also randomly treat the dog for paying attention to you, making eye contact and for staying at your side.


Oh I didn't know those werent positive, but the treats thing doesn't seem to work because usually the dog will stay to get the treat but then rush off ahead after they have gotten the treat. my mum and sister think it isn't a good idea to use treats with Misty because they say she will then only do something for the treats


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## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

Jen2010 said:


> I agree with the others. Your mum's method may be working, but it's not the best solution to the problem and could result in the dog having other issues.
> 
> How long have you had your dog and how long have you been trying loose leash walking? The reason I ask is that it took me MONTHS to get Pepper to llw. I mostly was doing the click and treat whenever she was in the right position, which ended being a LOT of treats because as soon as she would get one, she'd pull ahead again. I did try reversing direction when she would get ahead of me, but she got too big it became difficult. We started training her at a few months old and it wasn't until almost a year old that it was like a light bulb suddenly came on and she got it! I was quite surprised.
> 
> ...


It's hard to say how long we worked on it. We got her as an 8 week old puppy and knew almost nothing about training so she was either held very tightly by the leash by our side to give her no choice in going ahead (but the leash was tight so she was still pulling but pulling by our side) as this was the way mum taught her old rottweiler to heel a long time ago (i think this dog was incredibly smart and eager to please though) and i would usually let her pull ahead on walks. obviously as she got older it became a burden walking her because she was getting so strong that she could pull the leash out of our hands. When she was about perhaps 10-11 months old I started training her to walk on a loose leash using the stopping and clicking and treating in position method. This worked fine as long as I was speed walking and she was doing well. In fact we had one breakthrough walk, shortly after we'd gotten the gentle leader harness, where she walked perfectly by my side the whole time and mum remarked on the effectiveness of positive training for the first time. however, not long after that time, I stopped bothering to train misty anymore. This was largely due to the fact that during the time i was training her, we had her inside most of the time because we didnt have a backyard and live on a farm. When she was allowed to roam free again, she kind of became obsessed with chasing the cows and barking at them and was always roaming. when we did get the backyard, there was a change in her when we started doing the leash training again, she had back tracked so far and we couldnt get much improvement out of her. Sorry this has turned into a bit of an essay haha!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

On the treat then run ahead thing; try rapid feeding several treats one after the other in the beginning, while you're walking and she's in the correct position, and do it fast enough that she doesn't have an opportunity to get out of position before the next treat comes. 

You can get several in your hand at once and then dispense them out immediately one after the other.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> It's hard to say how long we worked on it. We got her as an 8 week old puppy and knew almost nothing about training so she was either held very tightly by the leash by our side to give her no choice in going ahead


Unfortunately, this probably taught her that pulling against the leash was how being on leash worked, so you're going to have a much harder time changing that habit.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> Oh I didn't know those werent positive, but the treats thing doesn't seem to work because usually the dog will stay to get the treat but then rush off ahead after they have gotten the treat. my mum and sister think it isn't a good idea to use treats with Misty because they say she will then only do something for the treats


 The way you handle this is the same way you would handle a prong or spray bottle correction...you don't brandish it in front of the dog to change their behavior. If you start telling your dog how bad they are and how you're gonna get the prong collar out, your dog will eventually figure out that the prong collar is what's hurting them when they act up. When you brandish a spray bottle to dissuade a dog from barking or jumping on the couch or whatever, the dog realizes that the spray bottle is the problem. And when you shake a bag of treats to get your dog to pay attention to you, you're teaching the dog to blow you off UNTIL you have treats.

Essentially you teach the dog to pay attention for the object, not for you. You want their cue to be your voice, not the training aid. That's why it's good to keep the treats in a pouch or in a baggy or similar. Wear cargo pants and put the treats in the cargo pocket. ETC. With recall or similar it's fine to offer a treat if it's an EMERGENCY and you need your dog to come NOW but it better be a good treat or your dog's going to weigh their options. Like, if your dog's headed towards the highway you better be offering ham and not kibble. Even when you do use a lure you want to wait til the dog is in the correct position before the dog gets the treat, every time, and you swap out just your hand for the lure.

Dogs are smart, and they learn a lot through repetition. If you really have a dog who's so distracted by treats that they're an obstacle, then you use a lower value treat, something interesting that she likes but doesn't obsess over (carrots or apple are good for this), or a toy she likes but doesn't obsess over. And if you can get your dog into a routine, even if you aren't using treats, then your dog will chill out a lot more. You can do exercises with your dog where instead of walking you're praising for getting in the right position. Dog hits the end of the leash, you turn and wait for them to come back, and then you walk in the new direction while praising. Hits the end of the leash, try again. It takes longer, treats can get you a higher level of engagement, but if they're really just an extra distraction then skip em.

ETA: I forgot to mention that if you have to train without treats or corrections you substitute repeating the command for the correction. Dog gets up when you told them to stay in down? OK. You just go again. Dog does the bad thing again even when you told them not to? OK. You'll take them back and try again. This works best if your distractions are stationary and rabbits tend not to be but you'll get there. You substitute praise for a toy or treat and repetition for failure to comply. There are trainers who use this method exclusively and while I think they're making their lives unnecessarily difficult, some dogs really do better this way. It's like you're teaching them math, if they get a problem wrong they have to do another problem until they get it right.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Also; you can absolutely lure a behaviour with food and then fade the food out. Not a big deal.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

Yep: "Even when you do use a lure you want to wait til the dog is in the correct position before the dog gets the treat, every time, and you swap out just your hand for the lure."

80% of why I don't like clickers is because I personally can't hold the clicker the leash and make distinct hand signals at the same time. But there are some situations where your dog might just be distracted by food and not really getting what you want them to get, which is why I mentioned it. My other point is that you can do the same thing with a correction from a spray bottle or a prong collar...get a dog who only listens in the presence of the training aid.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I find that the problem with using squirt bottles is that they stop being effective after a while. Even the dogs who hate them at first realize they're not so bad, and other dogs even learn to like them. So they can be effective for some things if used occasionally, but I would not use them for a behavior like LLW.


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## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

LennyandRogue said:


> The way you handle this is the same way you would handle a prong or spray bottle correction...you don't brandish it in front of the dog to change their behavior. If you start telling your dog how bad they are and how you're gonna get the prong collar out, your dog will eventually figure out that the prong collar is what's hurting them when they act up. When you brandish a spray bottle to dissuade a dog from barking or jumping on the couch or whatever, the dog realizes that the spray bottle is the problem.


I can see where you're getting, but based on what my mum has told me, Misty is now walking perfectly by her side throughout the walk and she no longer needs the water bottle. So its possible that Misty has not made the connection between the water bottle and the punishment but rather just the water?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> I can see where you're getting, but based on what my mum has told me, Misty is now walking perfectly by her side throughout the walk and she no longer needs the water bottle. So its possible that Misty has not made the connection between the water bottle and the punishment but rather just the water?


Even if she's walking perfectly, it's because she's afraid of getting squirted. Is that really how you want your dog to exist? In fear of being punished? I would hedge a bet that walks are absolutely zero fun for her right now, and they could actually even be stress inducing.

Also, just like positive reinforcement is ongoing, so is negative reinforcement. She's not going to walk perfectly like this forever. You're going to have to continuously negatively reinforce to maintain her walking this way if that's the way you're going to train her.


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## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

ireth0 said:


> Unfortunately, this probably taught her that pulling against the leash was how being on leash worked, so you're going to have a much harder time changing that habit.


Yes, I knew the training process would take a while because she had been reinforced for pulling for quite some time. but that method was the one mum used for her rottweiler and that dog got it really quick. So the only explanation I can think of for that is that her dog must have been super smart or something.


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## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> Even if she's walking perfectly, it's because she's afraid of getting squirted. Is that really how you want your dog to exist? In fear of being punished? I would hedge a bet that walks are absolutely zero fun for her right now, and they could actually even be stress inducing.
> 
> Also, just like positive reinforcement is ongoing, so is negative reinforcement. She's not going to walk perfectly like this forever. You're going to have to continuously negatively reinforce to maintain her walking this way if that's the way you're going to train her.


I agree with you, unfortunately I will probably not be able to do anything about it because mum has found a method that works very quickly. I do think my sister uses treats to reward misty for walking by her side in conjunction with the water bottle though.


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## LennyandRogue (Jun 25, 2016)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> I can see where you're getting, but based on what my mum has told me, Misty is now walking perfectly by her side throughout the walk and she no longer needs the water bottle. So its possible that Misty has not made the connection between the water bottle and the punishment but rather just the water?


Does she still bring the bottle with her? Does she ever hold out the bottle if Misty looks like she's getting a little too excited?

If your mom was also adequately rewarding your dog for being in the right position, either by praising her, relaxing, etc... then your dog is getting positive reinforcement for being in the correct position as well as negative reinforcement for avoiding punishment. It's not an ideal way to train but again, in my experience most dogs learn from repeating the action over and over again. If your dog can have several months of walks where no corrections are made because she was behaving well, she's spending all of that time learning how to behave. 

Same concept as fading out treats, she needs to be able to do it without the food reward or correction before you can guarantee she knows what you want.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I think part of the problem is that everyone in the house seems to do it differently... There doesn't appear to be a consistent method of training here, and an apparent unwillingness to all get on the same page.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> Yes, I knew the training process would take a while because she had been reinforced for pulling for quite some time. but that method was the one mum used for her rottweiler and that dog got it really quick. So the only explanation I can think of for that is that her dog must have been super smart or something.


Or just interpreted it differently, or wasn't as motivated by outside stimuli, or just didn't have as much energy and got tired more quickly and gave up. There are a myriad of things that can impact one dog reacting differently to a technique than another. (including just being different dogs)

It's less that it's been reinforced to me than that it's been conditioned. On leash and pulling are one in the same. So creating a new idea that they aren't is going to take more effort to retrain than on a dog who didn't have that history of being conditioned to pull.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> I agree with you, unfortunately I will probably not be able to do anything about it because mum has found a method that works very quickly. I do think my sister uses treats to reward misty for walking by her side in conjunction with the water bottle though.


You can do something. Don't let your mom walk the dog. At some point you need to stand up for your animal, who is being punished and scared into behaving.


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## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> You can do something. Don't let your mom walk the dog. At some point you need to stand up for your animal, who is being punished and scared into behaving.


I don't really have the option of walking her myself though because not only do I have my own puppy to look after, but I have to be honest I don't know if I would be able to handle her. I know you need patience to train, but how are you supposed to exercise your dog while you are training them to walk on lead? When I was taking her for walks, I would only be able to walk for about 5-10 mins before she started misbehaving too much and we had to turn around and go home and she needs a fair bit more of exercise. Mum obviously doesn't have an issue with having to continuously negatively reinforce Misty because she says she always takes a water bottle on walks anyway whereas it is an inconvenience to have to take treats along all the time. 
I just don't think I'm going to win this one- she might only change her mind when she sees the negative effects of her method and even then might simply attribute it to something else. For example, Misty was a very mouthy puppy and mum would slap her on the nose when she bit. Nowadays she still mouths us at 16 months old but Mum still believes that the hitting on the nose method works and is effective.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> I don't really have the option of walking her myself though because not only do I have my own puppy to look after, but I have to be honest I don't know if I would be able to handle her. I know you need patience to train, but how are you supposed to exercise your dog while you are training them to walk on lead? When I was taking her for walks, I would only be able to walk for about 5-10 mins before she started misbehaving too much and we had to turn around and go home and she needs a fair bit more of exercise. Mum obviously doesn't have an issue with having to continuously negatively reinforce Misty because she says she always takes a water bottle on walks anyway whereas it is an inconvenience to have to take treats along all the time.
> I just don't think I'm going to win this one- she might only change her mind when she sees the negative effects of her method and even then might simply attribute it to something else. For example, Misty was a very mouthy puppy and mum would slap her on the nose when she bit. Nowadays she still mouths us at 16 months old but Mum still believes that the hitting on the nose method works and is effective.


There are a few things you can do to keep her stimulated/exercised while you work on training:

1) Take lots of shorter walks. If she starts getting wound up at 15 minutes, then head home after 15 minutes and go for 2 or 3 walks instead of one longer one.

2) At-home conditioning exercises - strength training can be just as tiring as cardio!

3) Lots of brain games. A lot of dogs don't necessarily need the physical exercise of walking for 1+ hours. They need the stimulation, but not necessarily the physical act of walking. Trick training is great because it can be both physically and mentally stimulating. 

4) Brain games like "find it" (hide food and make the dog search for it with their nose) and feeding in food dispensing toys instead of out of a bowl will help too. Some dogs find sniffing/tracking as or more tiring than walks.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Kitty and Jasper said:


> I just don't think I'm going to win this one- she might only change her mind when she sees the negative effects of her method and even then might simply attribute it to something else. For example, Misty was a very mouthy puppy and mum would slap her on the nose when she bit. Nowadays she still mouths us at 16 months old but Mum still believes that the hitting on the nose method works and is effective.


Sounds like the only one losing here is your dog. She has one owner who borderline abuses her and another who won't stand up for her right to not be punished. I feel badly for your dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

LOL if I sprayed my dogs in the face what a water bottle, they would think it was the greatest thing ever, especially on a hot day.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

AM not for the water bottle or spraying animals... Hope your Mum is also introducing actual training during this time, so she doesn't need the water bottle for life.. or before the dog learns to ignore the water bottle. That is where people get into long term problems... They find a training tool that gets a quick response and they just stop at the training tool... Animals never learns to do it on their own.


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## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

PatriciafromCO said:


> AM not for the water bottle or spraying animals... Hope your Mum is also introducing actual training during this time, so she doesn't need the water bottle for life.. or before the dog learns to ignore the water bottle. That is where people get into long term problems... They find a training tool that gets a quick response and they just stop at the training tool... Animals never learns to do it on their own.


Well you were all right. Turns out the water bottle is losing its effectiveness. Misty doesn't even respond to it anymore according to my sister. I am thinking we should get a professional positive trainer to assist us while mum is thinking along the lines of using a cattle prod on walks or a slip chain (which doesnt work anyway but hopefully she was 'joking)


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## Kitty and Jasper (Apr 21, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> Sounds like the only one losing here is your dog. She has one owner who borderline abuses her and another who won't stand up for her right to not be punished. I feel badly for your dog.


I do stand up for her but there is only so much I can do particularly given that she isn't actually my dog, she is my sister's who agrees with the water method so in the end she gets the last say. But as I wrote also, they are finding out the water method is becoming ineffective so I am thinking we will just get a trainer in to deal with this issue


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

A cattle prod? Wow.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Sounds like the only one losing here is your dog. She has one owner who borderline abuses her and another who won't stand up for her right to not be punished. I feel badly for your dog.


Okay ... while I agree that this might not be the best method, I would hardly call it abuse. It doesnt sound like the dog is being psychologically traumatized by this.

The OP has stated multiple times that this is not THEIR dog and there really isnt much they can do, other than coupling the squirt bottle with positive reinforcement from the Op and their sister.

I find it inherently amusing that so many folks who are so adamant for positive training for animals are terrible about extending it to the owners.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Okay ... while I agree that this might not be the best method, I would hardly call it abuse. It doesnt sound like the dog is being psychologically traumatized by this.
> 
> The OP has stated multiple times that this is not THEIR dog and there really isnt much they can do, other than coupling the squirt bottle with positive reinforcement from the Op and their sister.
> 
> I find it inherently amusing that so many folks who are so adamant for positive training for animals are terrible about extending it to the owners.


I think the cattle prod crosses that line.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Yeah I wouldn't necessarily call the water bottle method abuse - I don't like it, but there are far worse methods. Like... cattle prods. Seriously? Well regardless of the situation, I do feel bad for the OP because it's a rock and a hard place. I think the trainer is the best thing right now - or even just taking the dog to obedience classes. At least start there and see how it goes. It sounds like the biggest challenge is simply modernizing the mom's views on training. I come from a fairly old school background but over the years I've learned that while it takes more effort, positive training is the best for me and my dogs. Sometimes less positive methods might be necessary in cases of very hard dogs, and depending on the job for which they're being trained, but I think I'd agree with ACDs that there tends to be a pretty quick jump to "abuse" on these forums sometimes.

FWIW, my dog LOVES drinking out of water bottles. Which is super convenient, and one reason why I don't agree with using a water bottle as punishment.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think the cattle prod crosses that line.


Oh yes, okay ... I admit I only skimmed the thread (I was busy and in a hurry) so I must've missed that part, yikes!



TGKvr said:


> Yeah I wouldn't necessarily call the water bottle method abuse - I don't like it, but there are far worse methods. Like... cattle prods. Seriously? Well regardless of the situation, I do feel bad for the OP because it's a rock and a hard place. I think the trainer is the best thing right now - or even just taking the dog to obedience classes. At least start there and see how it goes. It sounds like the biggest challenge is simply modernizing the mom's views on training. I come from a fairly old school background but over the years I've learned that while it takes more effort, positive training is the best for me and my dogs. Sometimes less positive methods might be necessary in cases of very hard dogs, and depending on the job for which they're being trained, but I think I'd agree with ACDs that there tends to be a pretty quick jump to "abuse" on these forums sometimes.
> 
> FWIW, my dog LOVES drinking out of water bottles. Which is super convenient, and one reason why I don't agree with using a water bottle as punishment.


Yes, it seems that any method someone doesnt agree with the term "abuse" always comes up somewhere, so basically if someone isnt feeding, treating, or training their dog the way YOU (general you) would than people are so quick to scream "ABUSE!!" 

Heck ... I have been called abusive because I leave my dogs outside on the closed in porch, or in the fenced yard (when at my parents) when I am home ... lol.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Okay ... while I agree that this might not be the best method, I would hardly call it abuse. It doesnt sound like the dog is being psychologically traumatized by this.


I tend to agree with Ian Dunbar when it comes to what is or isn't abuse. Here's a summary:



> Punishment that is painful or scary but doesn’t change behaviour is abusive.





> Punishment has to be effective. Dunbar believes if a punishment needs to be delivered more than once, then the punishment isn’t effective and is more abusive. He suggests that leash jerks, ineffective yelling, and dogs ‘still wearing’ a shock collar are dogs that suffering ineffective, abusive punishment.





> Punishment should only be delivered when appropriate behaviour is known.


Repeatedly punishing a dog for not doing something the dog has never been trained to do is abusive, in my book. No ifs, ands or buts.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> I tend to agree with Ian Dunbar when it comes to what is or isn't abuse. Here's a summary:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree that punishing a dog for something they dont know how to do is wrong, abusive? depends on what they are doing, if they are using a cattle prod then yes that IS abuse, but if it were only a squirt bottle? Ehhhh ... I'd hesitate to call that abuse.

But Ian Dunbar IMO tends to coddle dogs a bit too much for my liking personally.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I agree that punishing a dog for something they dont know how to do is wrong, abusive? depends on what they are doing, if they are using a cattle prod then yes that IS abuse, but if it were only a squirt bottle? Ehhhh ... I'd hesitate to call that abuse.
> 
> But Ian Dunbar IMO tends to coddle dogs a bit too much for my liking personally.


Well, you can take that up with Dunbar. 

What I consider abuse and what you consider abuse are clearly two different things. However, you're not allowed to tell me that what I find abusive is somehow incorrect, or exaggerate the issue and roll your eyes by saying 'yeah yeah, someone always says "abuse" when they don't like something'. Well, I guess you're allowed to do that, but I'm certainly going to call you on it. 

I absolutely believe that a lifetime of nagging, punishments, escalating punishments when the lesser aversive punishments stop working and no instruction on correct behavior IS abuse.

Squirting a dog one time with a bottle to stop an unwanted behavior. Eh, whatever. It's not great, but it's not what I consider abuse. It's a momentary lapse of judgement and frustration by the owner. It can be mitigated if the person then instructs the dog how to perform a proper behavior and then rewards the performance of that behavior.

The word abuse implies that cruel/violent punishments are taking place regularly or repeatedly. Daily squirts with the squirt bottle without any attempt to teach the dog the proper way to behave? Threatening to escalate the punishment to a cattle prod when the squirt bottle stops working? That is *by definition* an abusive relationship towards the dog.

ETA: And for the record, abuse isn't just physical. It's also a verbal and emotional behavior. The owner of this dog has yet to be really physically abusive, as squirting a squirt bottle isn't physically violent. But it is very clearly an attempt to repeatedly scare/intimidate/punish the dog into performing a behavior.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> Well, you can take that up with Dunbar.
> 
> What I consider abuse and what you consider abuse are clearly two different things. However, you're not allowed to tell me that what I find abusive is somehow incorrect, or exaggerate the issue and roll your eyes by saying 'yeah yeah, someone always says "abuse" when they don't like something'. Well, I guess you're allowed to do that, but I'm certainly going to call you on it.


Um ... I was not the only one who said people (and I didnt mean just you, but it's interesting that you thought I did mean you) in general tend to fly off the handle and call abuse at the slightest hint of a dog being uncomfortable.



> I absolutely believe that a lifetime of nagging, punishments, escalating punishments when the lesser aversive punishments stop working and no instruction on correct behavior IS abuse.
> 
> Squirting a dog one time with a bottle to stop an unwanted behavior. Eh, whatever. It's not great, but it's not what I consider abuse. It's a momentary lapse of judgement and frustration by the owner. It can be mitigated if the person then instructs the dog how to perform a proper behavior and then rewards the performance of that behavior.


I can't say if it is or it isnt, I have never had dogs that were so fragile that repeated squirts with a water bottle would be abusive to them.



> The word abuse implies that cruel/violent punishments are taking place regularly or repeatedly. Daily squirts with the squirt bottle without any attempt to teach the dog the proper way to behave? Threatening to escalate the punishment to a cattle prod when the squirt bottle stops working? That is *by definition* an abusive relationship towards the dog.
> 
> ETA: And for the record, abuse isn't just physical. It's also a verbal and emotional behavior. The owner of this dog has yet to be really physically abusive, as squirting a squirt bottle isn't physically violent. But it is very clearly an attempt to repeatedly scare/intimidate/punish the dog into performing a behavior.


I will say that there are some things I WANT my dogs to have a bad experience with, snakes are one of them I have used aversive methods for snake aversion training because it is quite literally life and death and saving their life and saving them from severe pain, and possibly a lifetime of pain (since snakes bites can cause nerve damage) is more important to me then being worried about momentary mental, or emotional discomfort.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I will say that there are some things I WANT my dogs to have a bad experience with, snakes are one of them I have used aversive methods for snake aversion training because it is quite literally life and death and saving their life and saving them from severe pain, and possibly a lifetime of pain (since snakes bites can cause nerve damage) is more important to me then being worried about momentary mental, or emotional discomfort.


 That's what you say is "one" of the situations where you've resorted to harsh punishment so the dog has a "bad experience". What else ?

To me that's the problem. When someone wields a hammer as their tool of choice, they run a very real risk that soon everything will start to look like a nail.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> That's what you say is "one" of the situations where you've resorted to harsh punishment so the dog has a "bad experience". What else ?
> 
> To me that's the problem. When someone wields a hammer as their tool of choice, they run a very real risk that soon everything will start to look like a nail.


That is grossly untrue, it was the only time I have ever used an e collar, and even then it was only on the vibe setting, I never used it to shock.


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

I don't want to get into the argument above. 

But when it comes to snakes I agree it can be a life threatening thing. Down South poisonous snakes year around were common. Often appearing right in your back yard. Trying to train on free roaming snakes or as they appeared is pretty tough. We used dead ones or caged ones. I'm sure snakes have some unique Oder but how do you capture this for training? I think also a dead snake has a different Oder so even this is hard. Initially we set up dead snakes and used various commands to indicate these were bad. Reward for avoiding or at least checking the handler. Then adding a retreat. And reward for quick retreat. Then We set up snake cages with live snakes for the dog to encounter. The dog now knows the exercise so failure is grounds for correction. Probably the most elaborate set up was a large rope decorated like a rattle snake. It was attached to a small rope held by the trainer. He also held the electric collar. If the dog got in range the trainer would yank the small rope to simulate snake attack and " sting" the dog about a second apart. Extreme but effective. The dog was sure the snake caused the pain so it's focus was " avoid snakes...avoid pain". It's tough to do this but if you are out in the field many miles away from the vet and your dog gets bitten by a poisonous snake you very well could lose a good dog. I'd rather have a live dog that is paranoid about snakes than sadness of a dead dog.

Chastise me all you want but be assured the first time my dog avoids a snake and comes back whimpering she will get the best full body hug she ever had.

Byron


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Bentwings said:


> I don't want to get into the argument above.
> 
> But when it comes to snakes I agree it can be a life threatening thing. Down South poisonous snakes year around were common. Often appearing right in your back yard. Trying to train on free roaming snakes or as they appeared is pretty tough. We used dead ones or caged ones. I'm sure snakes have some unique Oder but how do you capture this for training? I think also a dead snake has a different Oder so even this is hard. Initially we set up dead snakes and used various commands to indicate these were bad. Reward for avoiding or at least checking the handler. Then adding a retreat. And reward for quick retreat. Then We set up snake cages with live snakes for the dog to encounter. The dog now knows the exercise so failure is grounds for correction. Probably the most elaborate set up was a large rope decorated like a rattle snake. It was attached to a small rope held by the trainer. He also held the electric collar. If the dog got in range the trainer would yank the small rope to simulate snake attack and " sting" the dog about a second apart. Extreme but effective. The dog was sure the snake caused the pain so it's focus was " avoid snakes...avoid pain". It's tough to do this but if you are out in the field many miles away from the vet and your dog gets bitten by a poisonous snake you very well could lose a good dog. I'd rather have a live dog that is paranoid about snakes than sadness of a dead dog.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, IMO, I don't have an issue with positive punishment for situations that are 1) impossible or unfeasible to set up training situation for AND 2) that have a very high risk of being life threatening.

I also happen to (mostly) agree with Dunbar's definition of abuse, and I do not think that Dunbar equates all positive punishment with abuse; just improper and (maybe most especially) ineffective "punishment". But then, from a training perspective, if it's ineffective, it's not really punishment anyway (which is defined as something that decreases the occurrence of a behavior) - it would just be causing unnecessary suffering.


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

I got away from the so called book writers long ago. As a result I've come nose to nose a number of times in the sport dog world (Schutzhund/IPO). I finally simply gave up and left the sport with a bad taste. I still use many examples from it that apply to other dog training issues. 

I'm an engineer by trade. I was taught to first take myself out of the picture. Look at the situation, describe it, write it down, take it apart down to the last nut and bolt, then take the nut and bolt down to how they were made,..and so on.

Dogs aren't machines but they still do things in some kind of order or for some reason. Dogs also respond well to things they teach themselves. Hense the example with the " snake machine". I didn't invent it only saw and used it. I thought it was rather ingenious. A couple dogs learned the first time. They would not go near any snake, ever. Proofing a month later they still remembered. A couple others were a bit more hard headed some said "harder" temperament. They also were much more difficult to train in other things...maybe just not as smart.

I also think it is wrong to go yanking on choke chains, prongs and electrocuting the dog for training errors. Especially when some " super trainer" says " here, let me show you a correction" then goes and pops the dog for no good reason but to demonstrate. It's all wrong and I'll wade into it now even if it's not my dog. It happened in protection work a number of times. Moods go pretty high here both Macho and Macha (feminine). You have to control your own emotions training dogs.

In my mind you have to start with a good bond with your dog. If you don't have this the dog is going to be difficult to get vey far. In training classes when a team is having problems the trainer will often take the dog and work the exercise. No bond here but a good trainer exudes something that a dog will pick up and will temporarily trust the trainer. Heeling might be an example. Going to heel with a down from motion might fail. There are too many parts to the exercise. Take it apart. The heeling is good but the down fails. So she works a down several times. The dog responds ok. Let's try from heel position. Ok after five attempts with rewards. The dog is starting to trust the trainer, nothing bad has happened and he got some good treats and praise. So we go to take only one step and down. Again 4-5 trys before success. More praise and treats. And so on until they are walking. 15 minutes and the trainer has done more than the handler did in two weeks. Plus she established some trust in the dog for the next time. The dog won't forget.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Bentwings said:


> I don't want to get into the argument above.
> 
> But when it comes to snakes I agree it can be a life threatening thing. Down South poisonous snakes year around were common. Often appearing right in your back yard. Trying to train on free roaming snakes or as they appeared is pretty tough. We used dead ones or caged ones. I'm sure snakes have some unique Oder but how do you capture this for training? I think also a dead snake has a different Oder so even this is hard. Initially we set up dead snakes and used various commands to indicate these were bad. Reward for avoiding or at least checking the handler. Then adding a retreat. And reward for quick retreat. Then We set up snake cages with live snakes for the dog to encounter. The dog now knows the exercise so failure is grounds for correction. Probably the most elaborate set up was a large rope decorated like a rattle snake. It was attached to a small rope held by the trainer. He also held the electric collar. If the dog got in range the trainer would yank the small rope to simulate snake attack and " sting" the dog about a second apart. Extreme but effective. The dog was sure the snake caused the pain so it's focus was " avoid snakes...avoid pain". It's tough to do this but if you are out in the field many miles away from the vet and your dog gets bitten by a poisonous snake you very well could lose a good dog. I'd rather have a live dog that is paranoid about snakes than sadness of a dead dog.
> 
> ...


Yepity yep, we used dead ones, and yes, venomous snakes have a certain "smell", even I can smell some of them (the cottonmouth smells like cat pee). I had a dog that was bitten by a rattlesnake and suffered a massive allergic reaction and I almost lost her, I told myself never again and started training snake aversion after that, luckily the bite experience was enough for that particular dog and she became snake proof after that. 

The one I used it on, however was a terrier, and the more he got bitten (he had been bitten 4 times) the madder he got, and the more he wanted to kill them, so I had to do what I had to in order to keep him safe ... and it worked. Like I said, I have never used the shock setting on the e collar, only the vibration, and I have NEVER used an e collar for anything else.

When you live where I do, snake aversion is NOT an option and it can save your dog's life.


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