# Tracking in hard conditions



## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

Today in triple digit Texas heat, what do you think?
http://youtu.be/zFTwkNsu1K4


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Looks great, with his head down as it should be!  We never get that kind of heat here, happily, but we do have to stop practicing tracking in the winter and move our obedience and protection practices indoors.

Do you usually track in short grass like that? I've never tried my dog in grass that short yet. I'm afraid he'd look ahead to see the treats in the track. Our tracking fields generally have grass about knee high and we move to a shorter field once that one has gotten that high after mowing and the current field is almost waist high. I'm still looking for a decent field closer to me to get some extra practice in.

Your dogs look great!


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanks Packetsmom, I wish our summers were like yours  We track in different terrain, long, medium, short grass as well as dirt fields. The dog should be ready to track any terrain the trial club selects for the day of trial. The food on this track is in about 3 out of 10 footsteps and is only a pea size bit hidden in the grass so the dog cannot use his eyes to locate it, he finds it by scent and his chances of finding it are high if he is following the track scent.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

quatro said:


> Thanks Packetsmom, I wish our summers were like yours  We track in different terrain, long, medium, short grass as well as dirt fields. The dog should be ready to track any terrain the trial club selects for the day of trial. The food on this track is in about 3 out of 10 footsteps and is only a pea size bit hidden in the grass so the dog cannot use his eyes to locate it, he finds it by scent and his chances of finding it are high if he is following the track scent.


Sam's still really green in tracking, so he's getting food in every third footstep and the pieces are about the size of a nickel. I think we track almost exclusively in grassy fields because, besides woods, which aren't used for trials, that's about all the open space we have. I know the SAR teams track in everything and I'm excited to see my first SAR tracking trial this weekend just to see some more of the differences and similarities.

I think I might try some shorter grass on my own as well as maybe snow this year, even though it's unlikely we'll see either in a trial up here.


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

Baiting 1 step only followed by a couple of empty steps can in some cases raise issues where the dog only focusses on left or the right side footsteps. If that happens (even if it does not) best to bait in groups of 3 or 5 simultaneously. This way pup learns the left, right, left routine and starts to check all the steps. At your pups age I would recommend to bait 100%, after he gets 30-50 tracks then start baiting 3 on 2 off for the next 30 tracks mixed with 3 on 3 off and so forth and keep record of progress. Key is to know where the bait is and not let pup miss it.


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

Here is my younger dog with 50% bait (3on, 3off) but he deeply checks even the off steps, that's what you want.
http://youtu.be/yRF9u8A2L_c


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Our training coordinator is pretty confident he can go every third step, since he's showing a lot of focus and doing very long tracks already. And yeah, the odd number is to avoid him favoring either side. 

I have to admit, tracking is probably my favorite activity in ScH so far.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Looks good!

Packetsmom, sar tracking/trailing is quite different, you will enjoy it I'm sure.

We do all types of terrain. Pavement, dirt, sand, grass, woods, creeks, gravel, any place a person will go. The hardest for sure is freshly mowed grass in high temps in the sun. Nearly every dog I've seen will lose the track there.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

juliemule said:


> Looks good!
> 
> Packetsmom, sar tracking/trailing is quite different, you will enjoy it I'm sure.
> 
> We do all types of terrain. Pavement, dirt, sand, grass, woods, creeks, gravel, any place a person will go. The hardest for sure is freshly mowed grass in high temps in the sun. Nearly every dog I've seen will lose the track there.


juliemule - I find myself drawn to try SAR tracking with Sam, particularly since he is so much more driven in tracking than protection, but then that also means giving up on protection entirely, at least up here. I'm going to wait until he's a bit older before making the decision, but yeah, our one SAR dog/handler team do have some difficulty switching back and forth, but it would be neat to see how he could do with something less stylized and more real world, with more terrain than just open fields.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Fun video to watch!

I have some interest in AKC tracking. Watson can track my husband on a public dirt walking trail, or track other dogs, for quite a distance (1/4-1/2 mile), though the trail is generally very fresh. I think he would really enjoy it, but I haven't found any place nearby to help with training.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Fun video to watch!
> 
> I have some interest in AKC tracking. Watson can track my husband on a public dirt walking trail, or track other dogs, for quite a distance (1/4-1/2 mile), though the trail is generally very fresh. I think he would really enjoy it, but I haven't found any place nearby to help with training.


One of the neat things I learned is that, actually a fresh trail is harder than a trail that has aged about 20 minutes to 1/2 hour. The scent actually settles into the track better after a little time has passed. I thought that was kind of neat.

If AKC tracking is anything like Schutzhund tracking, you could easily start training on your own. I made a blog post about beginning tracks for puppies and you could start in your own yard or really any grassy field, like a field near a school that wasn't being used. All you need is some kind of bait, like hotdog pieces or another stinky treat, your own feet, a long line, and maybe a flag if you want to mark where the track begins for yourself.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

How quickly do most dogs start working odor alone? 

I don't know much about AKC tracking, but here is the link: http://classic.akc.org/events/tracking/getting_started.cfm 
The first level title looks like it would be fairly easy for Watson with a bit of training. I swear he's a bloodhound in a spaniel body.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> How quickly do most dogs start working odor alone?
> 
> I don't know much about AKC tracking, but here is the link: http://classic.akc.org/events/tracking/getting_started.cfm
> The first level title looks like it would be fairly easy for Watson with a bit of training. I swear he's a bloodhound in a spaniel body.


It sounds very similar to Schutzhund tracking.  In our club, dogs still have treats in the tracks up until trial. For the most part, this is just a treat given each time they indicate an article and one tossed into the track while they aren't looking, while they are at the article. So, by the time they're ready for trial, they are only being rewarded when they indicate an article (in ScH, they lay down in the track with the article between their paws) and then rewarded for starting back to tracking after.

It varies how quickly you fade the food in each step in tracking. It depends on the dog and how well they're doing with the food. Most dogs tend to start to fade the food on their own, skipping some of the treats because they are more interested in the tracking itself. Once the dog is doing really well and getting its nose deep into each step, you can try skipping some steps. Most people use an odd number so that the dog does not favor one side of the track over the other. If the dog seems to start going too fast or skipping steps, you can back up and put treats in more steps.

It's fun, easy, and my dog loves to do it.  Most of my work as a handler in tracking is first, laying the track, which as they get longer does become more and more work. Then, I do have to hold my dog back with the leash if he starts to try to go too fast or tries to start skipping steps. With a puppy just learning, you start up close to the head, but as the dog gets the idea, you start working further and further behind them, eventually at the other end of a 30 foot leash.

To me, one of the things that is neat about tracking is that, as a handler, it's not so much about me controlling the dog. My role is more passive and it can sometimes be a challenge to hang back and just let the dog work. It can be especially rewarding for dogs that have a independent streak since they get to be the one leading, the one who is active.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Nosework is extremely similar in the sense that it is about the dog working fairly independently without much input from the handler. The hardest part is training some sort of alert, which is much less formal than that in tracking. You just need to be able to call it, it doesn't have to be anything specific. I think you and Sam would enjoy it if you end up looking for another sport at some point. I honestly don't practice that much, so it's not super time intensive (though we would advance faster if we worked more). 

Honestly, it is one of my least favorite sports because of the lack of handler involvement, but it is Watson's favorite, so we do it. He would love tracking, as he already does it independently all the time, and would just need to formalize and focus it. It's definitely something I'm considering, especially as we move forward in nosework. 

I think you'll have fun practicing tracking in the snow this year with Sam. Watson was obsessed with tracking in the snow last winter as a puppy. Obviously the tracks are very visible to us, but he really enjoyed sticking his nose in every print and picking out one track when there were prints crossing.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

AKC tracking is quite a bit different from Sch. tracking. AKC tracking doesn't require the dog to complete the track in the trained style that the Sch. track requires. An AKC tracking dog is allowed to lift their head and weave back and forth along the trail and are allowed to get several feet off of the trail and not judged on their accuracy on corners. AKC tracking is much more akin to real life trailing. In fact Hawkeye went straight from AKC tracking to joining a SAR team and never missed a beat.


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

Oh yeah, we live and breath accuracy, half a body length off the track is our worst case criteria and we train for much less.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

quatro said:


> Oh yeah, we live and breath accuracy, half a body length off the track is our worst case criteria and we train for much less.


I have seen Sch. tracking referred to as "obedience tracking" by some, that might be intended as an insult tho I'm not really sure.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Keechak, thanks for the info! That makes me even more interested in AKC tracking now. Watson has a desire to quarter and air scent, so it would be really hard to keep him 100% on a track with his head down the whole time.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Keechak said:


> AKC tracking is quite a bit different from Sch. tracking. AKC tracking doesn't require the dog to complete the track in the trained style that the Sch. track requires. An AKC tracking dog is allowed to lift their head and weave back and forth along the trail and are allowed to get several feet off of the trail and not judged on their accuracy on corners. AKC tracking is much more akin to real life trailing. In fact Hawkeye went straight from AKC tracking to joining a SAR team and never missed a beat.


Well, IPO tracking and AKC tracking aren't _completely_ different. I think a handler versed in one will at least understand what is happening in the other. Although all of our experience is in AKC tracking, I did handle an IPO trained dog in a practice session - under the guidance of her regular handler - just to see what it was like. Different but not impossibly so. 

However, when it comes to training, you do have to decide at the outset which style you want to train for and you pretty much have to stick to that style.

In AKC tracking, it is not required that the dog step track with a deep nose so long as it is tracking. In IPO tracking, that is required.

Therefore, most AKC handlers don't _train_ for "nose-to-the-ground" - they leave that up to the dog. For IPO tracking, that is taught and imposed from the earliest stages of training. 

You always have to know the rules of the venue you are working in. 



Keechak said:


> I have seen Sch. tracking referred to as "obedience tracking" by some, that might be intended as an insult tho I'm not really sure.


It's always an "interesting" discussion between AKC trackers and IPO trackers. Some AKC trackers look askance at IPO trackers because they feel IPO training methods involve too much compulsion and not enough decision making on the part of the dog, and that the handlers micro-manage their dogs on the track. Some IPO trackers look askance at AKC trackers because they feel the dogs are allowed to air-scent (they are to some extent), work too "free form" on the track, and aren't well disciplined.

As I said, you have to pick your venue.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

90% of the dogs we work start on human scent alone, no food. Generally in SAR, dogs trail rather than track. Which sounds like AKC version is more trailing, but I've never seen it so I don't know.

I do believe a big part in trailing vs. tracking is human scent vs disturbed vegetation.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Fun video to watch!
> 
> I have some interest in AKC tracking. Watson can track my husband on a public dirt walking trail, or track other dogs, for quite a distance (1/4-1/2 mile), though the trail is generally very fresh. I think he would really enjoy it, but I haven't found any place nearby to help with training.[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

juliemule said:


> http://newyorksearchandrescue.org/
> 
> Not AKC, but may be able to help with tracking.


Cool! Thanks!


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

Keechak said:


> I have seen Sch. tracking referred to as "obedience tracking" by some, that might be intended as an insult tho I'm not really sure.


It is not insulting when you have a dog capable of doing it  It is like saying a PhD is insulting so go get a GED!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

The way I look at it is like this...

You have the way troops march when they're trying to get from point A to point B. This is usually pretty utilitarian and is designed to accomplish the task as efficiently as possible. Then you have the way troops march for a parade. This is usually a lot more stylized and meant to look a certain way. You would not have troops march in the same way for a parade as you would have them march if you were trying to make it 20 miles through rough terrain.

To me, Schutzhund tracking is much more rigid and stylized. It's not necessarily how you would want a dog to track if Timmy is trapped in a well, but that doesn't mean that the skills the dog uses in one might not be useful in the other. We had a dog this past weekend earn a obedience and a tracking title for Schutzhund and the next day earn a tracking title for SAR.

I don't see either style as greater than or less than, but having different purposes.


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