# Jack-A-Ranian?



## CocoAndMarley (Aug 17, 2011)

Anybody ever heard of a Jackaranian? It is a mix between a Jack Russell and a Pomeranian..My friend bought one a few months ago...But he is starting to look very odd looking!! His ears are as big as a German Shepard.They stick up. He actually looks like a very small German Shepard. He is brown. His tail curls up..

Does anyone have this mixed breed? Should they have such big ears or did the breeders lie to my friend..Could there be more breeds in him?

I have no pictures of him unfortunately.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

The problem with getting mixed breeds with silly names (Jackaranian, really?) is that there is NO guarantee how a dog is going to look. There is no standard, no nothing. So yeah... the "breeder" probably didn't lie, it's just kind of a crapshoot when you are mixing two different breeds together and paying no attention to their lineage, etc.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Agreed with Jackson's mom. Chances are this dog is a mix of a million breeds and the "breeder" gave it a fancy designer name so that someone would pay more for it.

He is a mutt.


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## CocoAndMarley (Aug 17, 2011)

Yeah I guess that. There could be loads of different breeds mixed in there. I said to her that I wouldn't pay for a mutt but she said oh this mixed breed is the new big thing...I still wouldn't pay..Lol

Oh and if you google jackaranian pictures I do not think this breeder came up with the name


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

Jackaranian - just another "cutsey" name used to sell a mutt for big dollars. I agree with the others that this dog could be a mix of anything and even if somebody had another jackaranian chances are it wouldn't look anything like your friend's dog.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

TOTALLY agree with everyone else, he is a mutt, a mix of a Pom and JRT, or so the "breeder" claims. 
There is NO way to tell what he will turn out like, and if someone was willing to sell him and his litter under such a "cutsey" name there is NO way to tell.


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## Sendiulino (Jun 20, 2011)

The name "Jackaranian" hurts my head. Honestly. I don't mind mixed breeds one bit, but I hate designer _names_.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

That's a mix I can't imagine why anyone would want to make.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I too hate cute names for mutts. Nothing wrong with mutts but that's all they are. My bosses bought a labradoodle, because they're hypoallergenic (yeah, right) and the next big thing. $1200 for a mutt and one of them is still allergic to the dog. I can't imagine what part of labrador is hypoallergenic?


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## amynrichie (Sep 3, 2008)

I would never pay more than a rehoming fee for a dog like that. As far as names go, we have fun calling our mutt a Beagador, because I *think* that's what he is. (We only keep that in the family though!) I would be kind of embarrassed to say that to someone in all seriousness! In those instances, he's a lab mix.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Ah, the next big thing.

Just like pet rocks, Rubic's Cubes and Cabbage Patch Dolls - except dogs are living, breathing beings.

Mother Nature must be pissed. I guess the same could be said about lots of established, extreme breeds, but at least with those, you should know what to expect when the dog grows up.


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## LordZedd (May 13, 2012)

Im shocked I actually made an account here but I had to jump in and defend Jack-a-Ranians.
Sure they may not be purebreeds but they are a great mix.
If you are planning to buy a mix breed make sure they have papers on them and you are able to see and interact with the parents.
When I went to get my little girl (Yuki) I spent a good 2 hours with the parents and found them very calm and just 2 happy dogs. After getting my Jack-a-Ranian 4 months now she is the best thing ever.

If you wana say that this breed is a bad breed go ahead and say so. But say it while looking at this. 









Also for those who said "Google it and you see nothing" http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Jack-a-ranian


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

LordZedd said:


> If you wana say that this breed is a bad breed go ahead and say so. But say it while looking at this.


No one is saying its a bad breed... because its not a breed. They are simply saying its a mutt and how it looks when it grows up is not guaranteed.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

CocoAndMarley said:


> Anybody ever heard of a Jackaranian? It is a mix between a Jack Russell and a Pomeranian..My friend bought one a few months ago...But he is starting to look very odd looking!! His ears are as big as a German Shepard.They stick up. He actually looks like a very small German Shepard. He is brown. His tail curls up..
> 
> Does anyone have this mixed breed? Should they have such big ears or did the breeders lie to my friend..Could there be more breeds in him?
> 
> I have no pictures of him unfortunately.


Well, when you get a mixed breed, you never quite know what to expect.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Rusty is a Jack X Pom.. presumably..I dont actually know for sure, he has been through so many homes that his exact mix has long since been lost in translation. he is a MIX though, not a breed, he is not a "jack-a-ranian" he is a JRT X, and being a MIX they vary a lot..if I went based on Rusty, I would not recomend the mix to anyone, he is a terrable dog lol


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## LordZedd (May 13, 2012)

Miss Bugs said:


> Rusty is a Jack X Pom.. presumably..I dont actually know for sure, he has been through so many homes that his exact mix has long since been lost in translation. he is a MIX though, not a breed, he is not a "jack-a-ranian" he is a JRT X, and being a MIX they vary a lot..if I went based on Rusty, I would not recomend the mix to anyone, he is a terrable dog lol


See that is the problem though. You do not have info on what it is mixed with.
With Yuki I have documentation and register papers and seen both the pure breed JTR and POM. 

"A mutt is a mixed-*breed* dog." - Wikipedia
Seems like a mutt is still a breed of dog. Mixed, yes but still a breed a mixed breed of amazing.

POM mixed with Jack and god knows where is different from knowing the dog is a pure POM mixed with a pure JRT...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LordZedd said:


> With Yuki I have documentation and register papers and seen both the pure breed JTR and POM.


What kind of registration papers do you have? You can't register a mixed-breed with any of the respectable registries (except as a pet so you can do dog sports).

Any kind of dog can be awesome if raised/trained properly.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

LordZedd said:


> See that is the problem though. You do not have info on what it is mixed with.
> With Yuki I have documentation and register papers and seen both the pure breed JTR and POM.
> 
> "A mutt is a mixed-*breed* dog." - Wikipedia
> Seems like a mutt is still a breed of dog. Mixed, yes but still a breed a mixed breed of amazing.


You have no idea how easy it is to get a dog registered. Puppy millers do it constantly. Just forge papers and tada! Pure bred show quality, apparently. I personally know someone with an AKC "chiweenie" passed as a full chihuahua.
And if you honestly have papers on a mixed breed then it just proves my point.

*Breed*: A stock of animals or plants within a species having a distinctive appearanceand typically having been developed by deliberate selection.
It takes quite a while to establish a breed of anything. All results must be consistent to the point where a standard can be written to be followed. 
Your dog may be good, but she is one dog of this random mix and cannot be spoken for all of them. Just like how I know people who have "puggles" and will brag on them until the earth catches fire, but all the ones I've met have been horrid little beasts.

I will never understand why people pay hundreds of dollars for a mixed breed dog just because it has a weird name. Sure, the dog you got may be a good dog, but there are thousands of good dogs in shelters. so.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> See that is the problem though. You do not have info on what it is mixed with.
> With Yuki I have documentation and register papers and seen both the pure breed JTR and POM.
> 
> "A mutt is a mixed-breed dog." - Wikipedia
> ...


wow... lol ok no a "mix breed" is NOT a breed, its exactly what it says..a mix of 2 or more breeds. mixing a pure Pom with a pure JRT will still get you anything from JRT traits to Pom traits, yours appears to have more Pom traits, mine has more JRT traits, thats what genes do, you could get ANY random mix of genes that each parent carries. so let say Poms are red bits of cloth and Jacks are blue bits of cloth, now put on a blind fold and start gluing peices of cloth together..your going to end up with some interesting variations of red and blue..some will be similer, some with be half and half, some will be red with a little blue others will be blue with a little red, either way they wont be consistant! you CANNOT predict what you will get with a mix breed. mix breeds are great, I love my mutts, but my mix-breeds are not breeds, and they are not predictable.


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## LordZedd (May 13, 2012)

HollowHeaven said:


> You have no idea how easy it is to get a dog registered. Puppy millers do it constantly. Just forge papers and tada! Pure bred show quality, apparently. I personally know someone with an AKC "chiweenie" passed as a full chihuahua.
> And if you honestly have papers on a mixed breed then it just proves my point.
> 
> *Breed*: A stock of animals or plants within a species having a distinctive appearanceand typically having been developed by deliberate selection.
> ...


Simple answer for this.
Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.
Also every animal shelter turned me down because my CAT was not fixed.
Also I had no idea that there was a name such a Jack-A-Ranian for this mix-BREED until I started google searching only to find so much hate for mix-BREEDs..


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## BassetMixUp (Dec 14, 2011)

LordZedd said:


> Simple answer for this.
> Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.
> Also every animal shelter turned me down because my CAT was not fixed.
> Also I had no idea that there was a name such a Jack-A-Ranian for this mix-BREED until I started google searching only to find so much hate for mix-BREEDs..


I think you're confused. There isn't a hate for mixED breeds. I have a mutt myself (he isn't a breed, he's a mixed breed AKA mutt.) The hatred stems from the backyard breeders making mutt puppies and selling them at "designer" prices to hoards of people. The "breeder" is doing nothing more than fueling the overpopulation of dogs to line their pockets while thousands of "designer" dogs are being put to sleep literally everyday.
A real, true, quality breeder does it to BETTER the BREED. To make it healthier both physically and mentally. They trace the lineage, keep records and do major health testing in an attempt to minimize any hereditary problems that may be common in that breed.
These designer backyard breeders with made up names are breeding for one thing - money.

Edited to add - I also resent that you consider my mixed breed "some old dog who isn't fresh" just because he was 1.5 when I adopted him. He's *amazing* and even beat the snot out of a purebred lagotto romagnolo at agility this afternoon.
I volunteer at a local shelter and we always have puppies. Perhaps you should do a little more research about the plight of dogs in our country.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Your cat should be fixed. Females can die if left to go into heat too often (or have too many litters) and males spray when they mature. Not to mention the terrible cat overpopulation problem. I don't blame the shelters for that. It shows a fair level of irresponsibility to have an unaltered cat (unless there's a bad health problem preventing the surgery).

There's no hate for the dogs. We love our mutts. But the breeders who produce these mixed breeds frequently are not good breeders. And they add to the shelter dog problem.


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

BassetMixUp said:


> I think you're confused. There isn't a hate for mixed breeds. I have a mutt myself (he isn't a breed, he's a mixed breed AKA mutt.) The hatred stems from the backyard breeders making mutt puppies and selling them at "designer" prices to hoards of people. The "breeder" is doing nothing more than fueling the overpopulation of dogs to line their pockets while thousands of "designer" dogs are being put to sleep literally everyday.
> A real, true, quality breeder does it to BETTER the BREED. To make it healthier both physically and mentally. They trace the lineage, keep records and do major health testing in an attempt to minimize any hereditary that may be common in that breed.
> These designer backyard breeders with made up names are breeding for one thing - money.


Exactly this, all of this.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

LordZedd said:


> Simple answer for this.
> Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.
> Also every animal shelter turned me down because my CAT was not fixed.
> Also I had no idea that there was a name such a Jack-A-Ranian for this mix-BREED until I started google searching only to find so much hate for mix-BREEDs..


It's not Dogforums' fault if a bunch of people on the Internet at large "hate" mutts. We love mutts here! Many of the regular posters have owned, or now own, mixed-breed dogs. My last dog was an absolutely awesome malamute/collie mix. I didn't refer to him as a "mallie" or a "colamute" or claim he was a purebred dog; he was a wonderful mutt. 

You seem really insistent that we recognize your "Jack-A-Ranian" as a breed. Why? Do _you_ think that mixes are somehow inferior to purebreds? Because that's what it seems like.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

LordZedd said:


> Simple answer for this.
> Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.
> Also every animal shelter turned me down because my CAT was not fixed.
> Also I had no idea that there was a name such a Jack-A-Ranian for this mix-BREED until I started google searching only to find so much hate for mix-BREEDs..


I got my 8 week "fresh" pup from the shelter -- a Jacshund!! (? I just made that up - we think he's jack russell + dachshund - sounds good tho right?). He's an awesome dog. Shelters do require that your current pets be spayed/neutered and UTD on vaccinations, because they want to make sure that they are going to responsible owners, which will increase the odds of the dog not going back to the shelter, and not making more dogs to end up in the shelter! I have three, neutered, vax'd cats and waltzed out of the shelter with my 8 wk old Jacshund no problem!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

LordZedd said:


> See that is the problem though. You do not have info on what it is mixed with.
> With Yuki I have documentation and register papers and seen both the pure breed JTR and POM.
> 
> "A mutt is a mixed-*breed* dog." - Wikipedia
> ...


 
You're papers are worth squat, there is no reputable registry that gives papers on mixed breeds. By supporting breeders that intentionally mix dogs you're supporting puppy mills and greeders that will breed dogs too young, with no health testing and don't care about what they produce.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> Simple answer for this.
> Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.
> Also every animal shelter turned me down because my CAT was not fixed.
> Also I had no idea that there was a name such a Jack-A-Ranian for this mix-BREED until I started google searching only to find so much hate for mix-BREEDs..


Meet Gem and Gypsy, my 2 ACD X GSD PUPPIES, both adopted from my local shelter. $250 each which included: tatoo, microchip, spay, shots and pet insurence. suppose I could've call them German Cattle Dogs and resold 'em for a few grand, after all they were "fresh pups" and I made up a name for them. when I adpted then there was about 4 LITTERS of young puppies available.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Years ago..A friend of mine had a Female Labrador Retriever, that mated with a Weiner dog..
Some of the puppies were born Black Weiner Retreivers ,and some where Golden Weiner Retrievers.

all of them were Very nice lap dogs...


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

LordZedd said:


> Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.


This is the WORST reason BY FAR that I have EVER seen as to why someone should not go to a shelter. That is beyond ridiculous and simple minded. 
Do you honestly think shelters aren't full to the brim with puppies? Most of the dogs at shelters aren't there because they have problems or are old. They're there because their previous owners were too sorry to take care of them so they dumped them off, or they let their dog get pregnant and didn't want to take responsibility for that failure. 
What is the point in paying out the hind end for a dog because it has a weird name. I wonder how many "jackaranian"s are in shelters right now from either just being accidental litters or purposely bred by people looking to make a quick buck. 



> Also every animal shelter turned me down because my CAT was not fixed.


I highly doubt "every animal shelter" turned you down for THAT, despite the fact that cats reproduce extremely easily and it's really in their best interest to have them altered.



> Also I had no idea that there was a name such a Jack-A-Ranian for this mix-BREED until I started google searching only to find so much hate for mix-BREEDs..


MIXED-Breed. Not mix-BREED. 
There is no hate for MIXED dogs. Most of mine have been mixes and one of my current dogs is mixed. There is, however, a strong dislike for people purposely mixing dogs to make money. Because most of the time, there's no other reason for it.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

LordZedd said:


> Simple answer for this.
> Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.
> Also every animal shelter turned me down because my CAT was not fixed.
> Also I had no idea that there was a name such a Jack-A-Ranian for this mix-BREED until I started google searching only to find so much hate for mix-BREEDs..


Some old dog.. You are a treat.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

Ok, first, let me jump in and defend LordZedd... *Awesome name btw*

I'm admittedly not going back to read through the posts again, but I do not recall him ever specifically claiming to have papers on his JRT x Pom, but that both parents were indeed documented, registered dogs. Thus, he does imply that this makes some additional level of certainty as to what he was getting.

With that being said, PERHAPS the breeder he went to was relatively responsible at the very least and has some good, registered, health-checked JRTs and Poms that they've decided to mix. We have no sort of clarity other than the that we've been told both parents were registered. But no, that alone guarantees nothing.

In any case, everyone can argue the semantics of it all day, but a Jackaranian is not a recognized breed. It is a mix, even if it is indeed a mix of a purebred JRT and a purebred Pom. 

Continuing with that, unless the breeder has been breeding for several generations, going through all the hoops of health-checks, breeding for particular genetics and traits, personalities, etc etc, what the outcome is from the two parents is a toss-up as to where it falls on the spectrum of JRT to Pom in every different way. We've already seen pictures of such crosses that look more JRT and another that looks more Pom. If you simply do little more than take 2 purebreds of differing breeds, breed the dogs, and wait for the pups to pop out, there's little to say what will come out. Yes, some traits will dominate other traits. But has the breeder tested either dog? Do they know what recessive, unseen traits either dog may be a carrier of that could show itself in the pups when crossed with the other parent? Two recessive genes put together will cause a trait to show itself. Neither parent may have shown the particular trait, because they both had a single recessive trait that was overpowered by the dominant trait. This is a VERY simple, generic breakdown of how genetics work, but I believe it shows the point I am trying to make. 

On the other hand, "mutts" can be developed into a recognized breed over time. I'll take an easy example, in part because I like them, someone posted above that has one, and I love Huskies, but the Alaskan Klei Kai. That did not exist a few decades back. People hoping to create a new breed in a responsible manner did it over years and years and years prior to publicly allowing anyone to purchase one. Lord knows how deep they went into research and testing in order to cross breeds with Huskies, and cross the right Huskies, to eventually come up with what appears to be a miniature Husky with a generally consistent personality across the breed. They didn't start as a breed just because someone crossed 2 breeds and gave it a cute name.

Every new breed begins as a mix/mutt, but far, far, far more goes into it than crossing 2 purebreds and giving it a name. That does NOT make it a recognized breed. It makes it a mutt with a name, or if you're in the money-making business, a "designer" breed.

There are very few mutt-haters here, if any at all. Many of us have mutts. When it comes down to it, whenever that day comes that I no longer have Jax, even after only having him for 5 months currently, I probably would be very willing to pay $1000 if someone were to tell me they had his "breed" and the dog would most likely be very similar in appearance and personality. But it ain't happenin' ya'll. Why? Because he's a mutt. Yes, of more than just 2 breeds, so that only creates all the more uncertainty, but still. 

But hey, if you want to spend big money on a mixed-breed simply because it's the new, cool thing and you don't want some old news dog, go right ahead. That's absurd reasoning if you're meaning in regards to wanting the "fresh, new thing" rather than a "typical" breed, and probably the biggest reason why the responses toward you are slowly becoming more and more negative. And if you simply meant a "fresh, young pup" as opposed to an "older, adult dog" then you did not look very long, hard or far.

...In any case, the JRT x Poms (or Jackaranians, I actually think THAT "designer" name almost sounds cool) are pretty cute-looking. Even so, I'd bet if each of you were to describe your dogs, there'd be at least 2 very different answers of the 3 (I think) of you that have posted having one.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

LordZedd said:


> See that is the problem though. You do not have info on what it is mixed with.
> With Yuki I have documentation and register papers and seen both the pure breed JTR and POM.
> 
> "A mutt is a mixed-*breed* dog." - Wikipedia
> ...


I thought you said your friend was the one taken on this dog? A mutt is not a breed, and you cannot have "registratrion papers" that mean anything on a mixed breed.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Miss Bugs said:


> you CANNOT predict what you will get with a mix breed. mix breeds are great, I love my mutts, but my mix-breeds are not breeds, and they are not predictable.


People say this all the time. I agree that consistency between individuals of the same mix is lower than consistency between individuals of the same breed. However, if you really want predictability, adopting a older dog, mixed or purebred, is the best way, IMO, to know exactly what you're getting. Puppies, whether mixed or purebred, are a crap shoot.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

It's been pointed out to me in a separate conversation that the AKK isn't such a generally recognized breed currently. It was late last night, I saw the sig above with the one (love that picture btw) and yeah, I admit to finding the thought of a mini husky to be cute lol. Regardless, I think my point was still made, and for anyone that didn't get it, simply substitute "AKK" with "GSD" and add a little more length to the history.


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

> Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.



I find it interesting how many people think that older dogs have "baggage" and think that pups are a blank slate, much easier and less headache than getting an older dog with "problems". My parents bought a 9-wk old pug puppy on those grounds, cutest little guy. Runt of the litter. Socialized the heck out of him- walked the neighborhood, brought him camping. You know what? He acts like he grew up in a basement--fearful, shy, terrified of other dogs, nervous around people, yappy. He constantly sucks at stuffed animals as a pacifier to calm himself. He has a LOT of issues. My two dogs--a racetrack flunkie who's had 4 different homes and an abandoned mutt with no background whatsoever--both are happy, well-adjusted, outgoing, love-everyone. I adopted them both as adults. I'm not saying they're perfect (lol) but ... kind of close. 

When you buy a puppy, you have no idea what you're getting. They aren't "fresh"--they're just young. I'd adopt an adult over a pup any day. 

Jen


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

The problem too with mixed breed 'breeders' is they generally have no background you can really look into. Sure, you spend an afternoon in their house and the dogs are cute and sweet. But, do they do ok in public, like at an agility trial or do they melt into a puddle when they leave the house? I know a sheltie breeder who has very outgoing, hyped dogs AT HOME. They brought a total of ten different dogs to my classes, each week a different group/pair, and not one was able to do much in a new situation. Some curled up in a ball and just layed on the grass in fear. One hit the end of the leash so hard he did a backflip because a train went by. Not one would be a sheltie I'd get a pup from. At home, I'm sure they're fine though.

You also have no idea how often the two dogs are bred - is it just the one time, every other year, or is it every time she comes into season? Does the breeder take the pups back if there's ever an issue? How do you know?

I have nothing against mixed breeds or rescues or shelter dogs either, there's more than enough of them out there though without people making up dumb names and pumping them out for profit.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sscott87 said:


> It's been pointed out to me in a separate conversation that the AKK isn't such a generally recognized breed currently. It was late last night, I saw the sig above with the one (love that picture btw) and yeah, I admit to finding the thought of a mini husky to be cute lol. Regardless, I think my point was still made, and for anyone that didn't get it, simply substitute "AKK" with "GSD" and add a little more length to the history.


Who told you that? I'm on a phone right now and can't link sources, but the AKK was developed using four different breeds back in the 70s. The studbooks have been closed for years now. The breed has a breed club, a written standard, and is registered with and shown in conformation in the UKC (America's other legit All-breed registry). It's also recognized by the American Rare Breed Association. No, it is not recognized by the AKC, but many legit breeds are not due to not enough of the breed yet existing, the breed club not wanting AKC recognition, or other reasons. The AKK is a good example of a new, yet legit, breed.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

sscott87 said:


> It's been pointed out to me in a separate conversation that the AKK isn't such a generally recognized breed currently. It was late last night, I saw the sig above with the one (love that picture btw) and yeah, I admit to finding the thought of a mini husky to be cute lol. Regardless, I think my point was still made, and for anyone that didn't get it, simply substitute "AKK" with "GSD" and add a little more length to the history.


There is a huge difference, though, between someone with a vision to create a new breed, and someone breeding generation after generation of F1s and giving them cutsey names instead of calling them what they are - a mixed breed


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Who told you that? I'm on a phone right now and can't link sources, but the AKK was developed using four different breeds back in the 70s. The studbooks have been closed for years now. The breed has a breed club, a written standard, and is registered with and shown in conformation in the UKC (America's other legit All-breed registry). It's also recognized by the American Rare Breed Association. No, it is not recognized by the AKC, but many legit breeds are not due to not enough of the breed yet existing, the breed club not wanting AKC recognition, or other reasons. The AKK is a good example of a new, yet legit, breed.


Aussies were not registered with AKC until the 1990s. I will also say though, that the breed club not wanting AKC recognition is NOT an issue for AKC if they think the breed will be profitable. Ask Aussie people, Border Collie people, Jack Russell people and CKCS people.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Who told you that? I'm on a phone right now and can't link sources, but the AKK was developed using four different breeds back in the 70s. The studbooks have been closed for years now. The breed has a breed club, a written standard, and is registered with and shown in conformation in the UKC (America's other legit All-breed registry). It's also recognized by the American Rare Breed Association. No, it is not recognized by the AKC, but many legit breeds are not due to not enough of the breed yet existing, the breed club not wanting AKC recognition, or other reasons. The AKK is a good example of a new, yet legit, breed.


I hadn't seen that the stud books had been closed. I've read/heard many contradicting things regarding the AKK's history and origin including using Alaskan Huskies (mixes of mixes of mixes?) Siberians, Schipperke and AED's. I knew about the parent club and UKC recognition - but my understanding is no one actually knows what went into creating them as it was an Alaskan Husky and unknown dog that spurred the idea for the breed. The breeding and "development" of the breed was all kept private and hush hush.

I've done -some- research on it and totally want to learn more about it.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

yep... this thread is continuing proof on how diluted people are about mutt breeding....


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

LordZedd said:


> Some want a fresh pup not some old dog.


I guess even 9 weeks is too old for some? Kind of horrifying.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

I'm not even going to lie; I don't know exactly what is meant by "F1" but I do get the jist of it from the context. Still though, not certain as to what you mean exactly, whether you're arguing my point or not. Regardless, my point was rather general and encompassing in the fact that new breeds begin as mutts, whether there is a vision or not. Yes, those actually truly intending to create a breed or to better a breed in some way put all sorts of time, energy, knowledge, and research into it because they are looking for a specific result of some sort, as opposed to simply "I'll put this purebred with that purebred and surely will come up with a cool, 'different' pup." GSDs were created from numerous breeds to be a working dog with specific traits. Today, they're a popular dog with the ability to excel at various jobs and activities. When they began? They were little more than a mutt. The "little more" part being that someone had a vision. I'm not condoning in any way breeding mixes just to breed them.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Back home on my computer now, so I can link things, yay!

The Alaskan Klee Kai, developed in the 1970s and '80s, is made up of the Alaskan Husky (which is a type, yes, not a breed, although Alaskan Husky breeders keep careful pedigrees and know their dogs' lines -- they operate very much like reputable breeders of any purebred working dog), the Siberian husky, the Schipperke, and the American Eskimo. The schip and eskie part were kept secret from the public for a while, but that info's known now. The breed was inspired by "Curious," a 17-pound husky mix, although I don't believe she was actually used in the breeding program -- the intent was to replicate her look and personality.

This is Linda Spurlin's account of the breed's creation, while this account is a bit easier to follow.

The breed club was formed in 1988 and went through a couple of name changes -- you can read its history here, and here is its Code of Ethics.

The AKK was recognized by the United Kennel Club in 1997 -- the UKC is the second-oldest all-breed registry in the US and is a legitimate one. The breed has a written standard and is shown in the Northern Group. The studbooks were closed that same year (scroll down to the second-last announcement). 

Casper and his parents and grandparents (all champions but Cas; he was sold to me on a pet contract) have PR -- Purple Ribbon -- status:



> "Purple Ribbon" is a distinction UKC gives to a dog if all 14 ancestors within a dog's three generation pedigree (parents, grand parents, great grandparents) are each registered with United Kennel Club.


I gather that all AKK sold by reputable breeders today have PR status; they are all purebred -- no one is still mixing eskies or Alaskan huskies into the breed.

Compare this to the "Jack-A-Ranian" -- which is always a first-generation mix of a Jack Russell and a Pomeranian, with no attempt to breed to a specific size, temperament or look, no breed club setting standards, no records kept of every Jack-A-Ranian bred, no code of ethics, no attempt to become recognized by any legitimate registry -- and the difference is clear. 

I'm sure that, in general, Jack-a-Ranians are cute little dogs and make great pets for the right owner. I wouldn't consider one an inferior pet just because it's a mix. But it _is_ a mix, not a breed... and it will, in all probability, never _be_ a breed.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

I hope you weren't on the phone the ENTIRE time : O!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for all of that info!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

No problem... and I have to say, it annoys me that Linda Spurlin was so secretive about her "recipe." In a way, I get it, but I would like to know everything that was used. Here's what she had to say:



> When I first started having people coming into my backyard to see the little huskies, it was common for them to ask me what I 'put into them'. They couldn't seem to accept that this was a 'real' breed of dog, that ALL breeds of dogs were man made. Sighthounds, scenthounds, guardian breeds, herding dogs, working breeds, were all created by man for his own best interests- according to the task he needed help with at the time. And yet when I asked the people in return what breeds went into the making of whatever dog they owned, the majority of them looked shocked at the thought that their own breed had perhaps been created by other than God himself!
> 
> Just because their breed was created several hundred years ago in Europe doesn't mean it wasn't created by man by mixing other existing breeds together for a specific purpose. So I began to joke about it and said that I just washed the dogs in hot water and they shrunk! Some laughed. Some apparently thought I was full of it! Then a woman made the comment that 'my grandmother doesn't give out her secret recipes, and neither do I"! I thought this was probably more appropriate than suggesting they shrunk in the dryer, so I began to use the comment. I simply saw no reason to try to explain all the breeds used in the creation of the Alaskan Klee Kai. Mostly, I suppose, because I was tired of the implication that they were 'just mutts'. Certainly the first one was an accident (and not my own either) but when you can reproduce the same dog consistently, you are on the road to creating a breed. There are several other American made breeds, such as the Boston Terrier, the Australian Shepherd, and the Louisiana Catahoula Leopard Dog to name only a few. So although the Alaskan Klee Kai has been recognized as a breed by the United Kennel Club, the American Rare Breed Association, etc., I realize there are those who still worry about the ancestors of these little huskies. I decorate my home as I wish, without concern as to what my German ancestors would have done. Maybe in time people will just accept these little dogs as companionable lap warmers and stop worrying about their relatives.


She later named the eskie and schip as "ingredients," but there may have been others that only she and the other original breeders (before studbooks closed) know about. The four I mentioned are the only ones I ever hear about, though (and I have talked to a lot of breeders/read their sites). This site (one of my favorite resources for info on the AKK's temperament) has this to say:



> Although the Alaskan Klee Kai looks like miniature Siberians, their foundation is the ALASKAN
> HUSKY. The Alaskan Husky is a not a breed but rather breed type based on a scruffy little
> Indian dog used by the people of interior Alaska, which anthropologists "guesstimate" to be
> nearly 5000 years old. Over the past 50 years, Alaskan Huskies have become extensively the
> ...


I definitely don't know everything about the breed... I'm always learning. I find dog breed creation and recognition very interesting.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

sscott87 said:


> I'm not even going to lie; I don't know exactly what is meant by "F1" but I do get the jist of it from the context.


In the "Jack-a-rainian" example the F1 is the product of the Pom and JRT cross. As with most "designer breeds" they are all F1 so there is no working towards a standard. To end up with consistent size, coat, body type, temperament, ect you have to continue breeding the actual 'jack-a-rainian' together. Occasionally crossing back in pure pom or JRT trying to get closer to the standard you set out to reach but your end goal is for the 'jack-a-rainian' traits to breed true. With all these designer breeds simply being F1 products they aren't developing a breed they are just making mutts with a fancy name.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

Bingo. Ok, so my assumption was correct in that it's simply the first generation product. Thanks!

And Crantastic, very informational stuff, I just hope that you haven't felt like you have to defend yourself in any way in sharing all of that. Like I said, I like the thought of the AKK myself, and I love that picture of your Casper and Crystal, so I now when I think of an AKK I often see the image of your signature, so late on a Sunday night it was the first thought that came to mind of a recent breed and how they all begin with various breeds mixing.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh, no, I don't at all. I agreed with your first post on the matter, and mostly just wanted to point out the ways in which breed development is very different from breeding f1 crosses, even though they both start with mutts.


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## Theathejackaranian (May 22, 2012)

Hi I've got a "jackarianan"  They look quite similar if you google Jackaranian pics My dog is a very intelligent dog and know a lot of tricks. (pardon my spelling, I'm a norwegian But I would say, it is not a dog suitable for people who never owned a dog They can be quite stubborn, and they also have a lot of energy, but they also have AMOUNTS of personality)


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

LordZedd said:


> See that is the problem though. You do not have info on what it is mixed with.
> With Yuki I have documentation and register papers and seen both the pure breed JTR and POM.
> 
> "A mutt is a mixed-*breed* dog." - Wikipedia
> ...


 yeah, keep telling your self that ....... Like it or not (& since you prolly paid a pretty penny, you prolly will not) your dog is a mixed breed .... A MIX OF 2 breeds!!!!!!! Which is what the term 'mixed breed' means. So many dogs die in shelters waiting for homes that were taken away by ppl breeding these 'breeds' ..... I'm sorry bu shame on them .


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

> In the "Jack-a-rainian" example the F1 is the product of the Pom and JRT cross. As with most "designer breeds" they are all F1 so there is no working towards a standard. To end up with consistent size, coat, body type, temperament, ect you have to continue breeding the actual 'jack-a-rainian' together. Occasionally crossing back in pure pom or JRT trying to get closer to the standard you set out to reach but your end goal is for the 'jack-a-rainian' traits to breed true. With all these designer breeds simply being F1 products they aren't developing a breed they are just making mutts with a fancy name.


I'd just like to point out - as a fan of Cockapoos for 40 years now - that lots of people are happy with F1 crosses just the way they come out, not minding the bit more inconsistency . . . and many love the fancy names too. They are fun. As kids when we left my aunt's home, after meeting her first Cockapoo pup, my parents had to listen to us play with the word 'Cockapoo,' and then giggle, all the way home in the car and for days afterward I'm sure.

I also know well a breeder (retired now) of Cockapoos that was every bit as diligent as any Cavalier, Papillon, Cocker or Tibetan Spaniel breeder I have every communicated with or met . . . those number in the hundreds and that includes a couple of close friends in those breeds 

I know that when I first came onto this thread to see the first page responses I found that the comments made automatic assumptions that were very derogatory, and I understand why LordZedd came on to post. *Blanket* insulting assertions were made on this post about those that dare to crossbreed. There was an attempt to ridicule the use of portmanteau names, and accusations are made about money wasted aimed specifically about those that would buy a designer or mixed dog, but of course exempting those that would buy a purebred. 

Those that are in purebreds, do you wonder why some take aim back at you?

LordZedd, your pup is a cutie. I've seen many Jackaranians (that would be my guess of their mix anyway) that are.

I see no reason to hate on portmanteau names. I'll always love portmanteau names, and Jackeranian is one that has a nice rhythm. I've made up similar for many of my rescues to include the 'best guesses' of their breeds. Lots of fun in that.

I see no reason to throw about insulting remarks based on what type of dog others want to spend their money on either. We all have different ideas of what is worthy of support and what is not. I know I would not support breeders in many full breeds due to ethical issues that I see rampant in those. For me those include - any breed that is cropped or docked - any breed that is extremely brachycephalic, any breed that is extremely short in the leg, any giant breed, any breed that traditionally supports double merle pairings . . . etc. I don't expect others to share that list, and don't cram my disgust in what they are supporting down their throats when they mention they might like a dog from breeds in those categories. In the same manner I would expect others (at least those that are adults) to realize we all don't share the same list and get off their high horses when it comes to the condemnation of other's choices as if these are black and white issues, and that includes the choice of breeders who make the decision to produce F1 crosses as pets.

Tell me you spent your cash on a purebred and then complain about those spending their well earned money on what they like - be it on designer or mixed dogs or pure, and I'll call you a hypocrite.



> So many dogs die in shelters waiting for homes that were taken away by ppl breeding these 'breeds' ..... I'm sorry bu shame on them


Dogdragoness, this is bunk. Most dogs that die in shelters do so because those shelters still operate on an established catch and kill model and the leadership, nor their communities, really don't care to do the work to change that. Homes are not 'taken away' anymore by a mixed breed or a designer breed than they are by a purebred. Dogs are not 'interchangeable' like that insinuates.

SOB


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## houndies (Feb 2, 2012)

Anyone who breeds anything should have a clear understanding of genetics. Breeding a dog with a high risk of certain anomaly with another with the same the pups will be at high risk of that anomaly - regardless of the dog being a purebred or mix. Not rocket here. So I suppose what really bugs me is the spurious assertion by many breeders of Xs that mixed breeds are healthier than pure breeds and this justifies the price being more than the price of one of the purebreds that's been crossed. That's unethical. 
But to each their own to what type of dog they want. And with any puppy that has been purposely bred make sure it has been responsibly bred.


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## Brydean (Apr 3, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> I'd just like to point out - as a fan of Cockapoos for 40 years now - that lots of people are happy with F1 crosses just the way they come out, not minding the bit more inconsistency . . . and many love the fancy names too. They are fun. As kids when we left my aunt's home, after meeting her first Cockapoo pup, my parents had to listen to us play with the word 'Cockapoo,' and then giggle, all the way home in the car and for days afterward I'm sure.
> 
> I also know well a breeder (retired now) of Cockapoos that was every bit as diligent as any Cavalier, Papillon, Cocker or Tibetan Spaniel breeder I have every communicated with or met . . . those number in the hundreds and that includes a couple of close friends in those breeds
> 
> ...


Nicely put!!


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> Dogdragoness, this is bunk. Most dogs that die in shelters do so because those shelters still operate on an established catch and kill model and the leadership, nor their communities, really don't care to do the work to change that. Homes are not 'taken away' anymore by a mixed breed or a designer breed than they are by a purebred. Dogs are not 'interchangeable' like that insinuates.


and how many shelters have you worked in?

if you want a mutt, go to a shelter, dont breed it.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

GreatDaneMom said:


> and how many shelters have you worked in?
> 
> if you want a mutt, go to a shelter, dont breed it.


I started as a volunteer in shelters 30 years ago and have had, predominantly, rescue dogs, and many of them, since that time. That includes fosters. My son currently is a volunteer as well - family tradition.

If you take that hypocritical position - if YOU want a purebred, go to a shelter, don't breed it or buy it. Back at you.

There is no obligation to preserve dog breeds - they are not a species. The breeding of them is a hobby, and a hobby that produces many offcast animals that end up in shelters, or fostered by people like me (yes my highly valued perfectly pedigreed Shih Tzu ex breeding bitch that never recovered mentally from her early days has left an impact). If that is your thing, go ahead and support it, but don't pretend your choices have greater ethical merit than others. There are unscrupulous breeders across the board breeding all kinds for all prices. 

SOB


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

So excuse me if I'm not understanding this correctly - are you then saying that it's perfectly okay for people who adopt to hold themselves higher above people (allowing them then to talk down to those who would rather seek out ethical breeders?)like me who own purebred dogs not from shelters - but when someone defends their reasoning for wanting that purebred its suddenly a matter of greater ethics?


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

No. You are not understanding correctly.

I purchase dogs, and adopt dogs. I have two purchased mixed breed dogs - both mutts. I also have, and have had, rehomes and rescues.

I also have no problem with someone 'defending' their reasoning for wanting a purebred dog. We all have reasons we decide things. Most of those are truly valid to ourselves.

I do have a problem when those people choose to throw down a gauntlet and belittle others choices as they defend their reasoning, or instead of defending their reasoning, and I will call them out on that. If it takes a 'back atcha', I'm up for it. 

What I have seen on this thread is not a defense of reasoning - but an attack on those who might want to purchase a deliberately bred mixed breed dog. Those are very different things.



SOB


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


> No. You are not understanding correctly.
> 
> I purchase dogs, and adopt dogs. I have two purchased mixed breed dogs - both mutts. I also have, and have had, rehomes and rescues.
> 
> ...


Thanks for explaining SOB . I thought I was misunderstanding!


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## houndies (Feb 2, 2012)

Yes SOB i find that argument terribly flawed! I have a couple rescues and the others are from responsible breeders- who show and are very successful in presenting my choice of breed's standard. And no it is not a hobby to have these breeds - it is a love!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> I started as a volunteer in shelters 30 years ago and have had, predominantly, rescue dogs, and many of them, since that time. That includes fosters. My son currently is a volunteer as well - family tradition.
> 
> If you take that hypocritical position - if YOU want a purebred, go to a shelter, don't breed it or buy it. Back at you.
> 
> ...


True Hobby breeders do NOT contribute to the shelter population, in fact a damn good many are involved in rescue themselves.

The 'GREEDERS that contribute to shelters are the puppy millers, who will breed anything to anything, if it's a mix they give it a cute name (I can think of VERY few of those mixes that are being developed to a breed standard) and the BYB who breed to make some extra cash, or because they want their female to have at least ONE litter ect ect both these group regularly dump dogs or have them siezed due to their neglect.

The heaviest contribution isn't from breeders AT ALL but irresponsible owners who think dogs are no more valuble than their old clothes and will cast them off the same way,I see it too often.

Then there are people like me who live in hotels FOR MONTHS to keep their dogs with them. I could have dumped my Dobe when we weren't allowed to move into base housing here due to breed restrictions, I didn't and my hubby sacrifices every day so we can have our girl, he could have insisted we get rid of her so he could have a 20 minute commute that didn't involve the DC beltway. Instead he drives 2 hrs in rush traffic to get to a job that's 35 miles away. 

Bashing purebred owners and ethical breeders isn't going to help the problem, but telling the TRUTH about Puppy mills and BYB MIGHT JUST make a difference.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> True Hobby breeders do NOT contribute to the shelter population, in fact a damn good many are involved in rescue themselves.
> 
> The 'GREEDERS that contribute to shelters are the puppy millers, who will breed anything to anything, if it's a mix they give it a cute name (I can think of VERY few of those mixes that are being developed to a breed standard) and the BYB who breed to make some extra cash, or because they want their female to have at least ONE litter ect ect both these group regularly dump dogs or have them siezed due to their neglect.
> 
> ...


I agree. However I will also suggest that when purebred owners and those that support hobby breeders decide to go on a good bash and make BLANKET GENERALIZATIONS about who does what and contributes to where I'm going to counter that, as those generalizations are garbage and do nothing towards educating anybody.

If you would like to tell the truth about bybs and puppymills, that is great, but the truth should then be told about the full faction of breeders, and bad can be found everywhere.

The truth is, where I live, the commercial breeders get a LOT more money for papered small purebred dogs, and that is what they focus on. They know that the general public believes 'pedigreed' means 'well-bred' and often means 'healthy', and they go to the bank on that quite regularly. Therefore I have commercial breeders close that are CKC inspected (that is Canadian Kennel Club) and that have three barns full of dogs of 6 or 7 different small breeds. Some of these same breeders are handlers and have show champion studs. Some of them are also bundlers of IKC pups coming in from Ireland. I've been to some of their barns. I've been to some of their homes, and I know at least some of the #'s they are selling from their ads. I've seen their websites that might show two breeds and their show involvement. I've also sat there listening while they condemned the 'guy' down the road cuz he breeds mixes.

So I don't have any desire for the message to get out there that 'designer' = bad, because the counter message often understood, then, is 'registered' = good. 

Neither of those messages has any merit, and neither are educational.

SOB


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> I agree. However I will also suggest that when purebred owners and those that support hobby breeders decide to go on a good bash and make BLANKET GENERALIZATIONS about who does what and contributes to where I'm going to counter that, as those generalizations are garbage and do nothing towards educating anybody.
> 
> SOB


So you think it perfectly fine for people to misrepresent an unethically bred F1 as a purebred? Sorry, but if they are being ethical about it they'll let their puppy buyers KNOW that it's a MIX, NOT a purebred.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> So you think it perfectly fine for people to misrepresent an unethically bred F1 as a purebred? Sorry, but if they are being ethical about it they'll let their puppy buyers KNOW that it's a MIX, NOT a purebred.


Where did she say that? Most mixed breed breeders I see and know of are selling their dogs as mixes. Not all F1s are unethically bred either.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> So you think it perfectly fine for people to misrepresent an unethically bred F1 as a purebred? Sorry, but if they are being ethical about it they'll let their puppy buyers KNOW that it's a MIX, NOT a purebred.


I said that nowhere. 

SOB


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Laurelin said:


> Where did she say that? Most mixed breed breeders I see and know of are selling their dogs as mixes. Not all F1s are unethically bred either.


I've seen a good many misrepresenting them that way, resulting in puppy buyers who insist (as one guy in this thread) that it's not a mix.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

This whole thread is full of stupid.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

HollowHeaven said:


> This whole thread is full of stupid.


Perhaps, but it's better that people find out they've been ripped off, perhaps they'll help get the word out.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> I've seen a good many misrepresenting them that way, resulting in puppy buyers who insist (as one guy in this thread) that it's not a mix.


Yes, but you suggested that I think it is "perfectly fine for people to misrepresent an unethically bred F1 as a purebred?", when I did not. 

What I did do was point out the blatant attack, on this thread, of those who would choose to buy mix breed dogs with gross generalizations about their breeders and the ethics of those that would buy.

I just read the full thread back over.

By LordZedd on page one - 



> See that is the problem though. You do not have info on what it is mixed with.
> With Yuki I have documentation and register papers and seen both the pure breed JTR and POM.
> 
> "A mutt is a mixed-breed dog." - Wikipedia
> ...


I've been known to say 'mutts are the best breed' on a regular basis to those who are being ridiculous in conversations. Its fun.

LordZedd had also already posted - 



> Im shocked I actually made an account here but I had to jump in and defend Jack-a-Ranians.
> Sure they may not be purebreeds but they are a great mix. . .


So, how exactly do LordZedd's comments provide an example of a puppy buyer who insists his dog is not a mix? How exactly has LordZedd been fooled? 

Perhaps LordZedd will come back on and comment, but I expect there would be no desire.

SOB


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> This is the WORST reason BY FAR that I have EVER seen as to why someone should not go to a shelter. That is beyond ridiculous and simple minded.
> Do you honestly think shelters aren't full to the brim with puppies? Most of the dogs at shelters aren't there because they have problems or are old. They're there because their previous owners were too sorry to take care of them so they dumped them off, or they let their dog get pregnant and didn't want to take responsibility for that failure.
> What is the point in paying out the hind end for a dog because it has a weird name. I wonder how many "jackaranian"s are in shelters right now from either just being accidental litters or purposely bred by people looking to make a quick buck.
> 
> ...


Yeah totally! buddy is from a shelter (before he was pulled by Texas ACD rescue) & he is a GREAT (with the emphasis on great) I'm still tying to figure out how he ended up at a shelter in the first place our dog, Josefina was a 'fresh' shelter puppy a yr & a half ago so I get a little hurt & sad that there are so many ppl that don't even want to give shelter /rescue dogs a chance .


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

Not trying to get in on this bashing of anyone or arguing of stupid stuff, but have to comment on this part because it was rather clear...



LordZedd said:


> "A mutt is a mixed-breed dog." - Wikipedia
> Seems like a mutt* is still a breed of dog.** Mixed, yes but still a breed* a mixed breed of amazing.





LordZedd said:


> Also I had no idea that there was a name* such a Jack-A-Ranian for this mix-BREED *until I started google searching only to find so much hate for mix-BREEDs..


These specific lines, coupled with the context of the rest of his arguments very easily imply that he believes mixed-breeds to be A BREED in and of themselves.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

sscott87 said:


> Not trying to get in on this bashing of anyone or arguing of stupid stuff, but have to comment on this part because it was rather clear...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seriously this is what you have read into these statements? 

All I can say is WOW . . . and I believe you are completely wrong. 

I have used the same 'in your face' kind of statements to those that insist on rudely 'educating' me about how wrong my purchases had to have been, as I stated above. That in no way means I believe a mutt is a breed. 

LordZedd would have to clarify, but the statements read to me, in the context of the rude attack on mixbreed dogs and their breeders and buyers in this thread, to be completely opposite of what you have interpreted.

SOB


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yet that is how everyone in this thread except you has interpreted his statements, that this mix is a breed because it's a mix of two known purebred dogs. 

Doesn't matter that the parents of his dog we not health tested when both breeds are prone to some of the same inherent conditions. Puppy buyers like this fall for the fact that both parents had some type of registration and figure that makes breeding stock worthy. Puppy buyers like this fall for the 'hybrid vigor' myth


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I interpreted it like SOB did. I took it to mean "mixed, but still a type of dog". As opposed to a true Heinz 57.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

> So, how exactly do LordZedd's comments provide an example of a puppy buyer who insists his dog is not a mix? How exactly has LordZedd been fooled?
> 
> Perhaps LordZedd will come back on and comment, but I expect there would be no desire.
> 
> SOB


This is what stemmed my initial response above to quote LordZedd from early in the thread. The part about those who insist their dogs aren't mixes but are a ------------ breed. Whatever the name may be. Whether LordZedd has been "fooled" and thinks such himself, I don't know nor do I care. He's got a cute dog, regardless of what he or anyone else wants to call it. 

However...



spanielorbust said:


> Seriously this is what you have read into these statements?
> 
> All I can say is WOW . . . and I believe you are completely wrong.
> 
> ...


Holy bejuses, come down broski! Lol In all seriousness, those statements on their very own I would not have interpreted like that, but when you put them into the context of the rest of the thread and LordZedd's arguments (and through the first 2 pages I had indeed read everything on this thread until I jumped ship as people just started getting too fiesty over it), it does indeed easily read that way. That's one large reason it turned into an overly-energetic debate, because it came off as if it was being argued that F1 generations *at least by some people* are considered a bread in and of themselves, such as the Jackaranian. Perhaps that wasn't how he meant it. Perhaps he did indeed mean it as a sarcastic return-slap at those that jumped early on. Regardless, it's the internet and sarcasm doesn't always come across and I do believe a lot of people, including myself, took it as that when reading through post-by-post when when this thread was first started. Particularly since he bolded "breed" in his quoting of wikipedia's definition, and thus continued to say that mixes are "still a breed."

How else do you take that? It isn't A breed. It's a mix. Of multiple breeds. Yes, it's still a dog. But what's your answer when asked what breed it is? Do you truly, honestly answer "Jackaranian" with the belief that THAT is it's actual, singular breed? Or do you believe that it's a mixed breed of a JRT and a Pom? 

SOB and sassafras, I understand completely what you're both saying, how you interpreted it. And maybe that's how LordZedd thinks it to be, but regardless, if it was a sarcastic answer, I think a lot of people missed that and it led to more flaming from some.

This thread seriously has grown ridiculous, hence why I hadn't posted on it in a while, and will now return to observing rather than saying something more for someone to jump up and down on and me feel the need to defend myself again.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Yet that is how everyone in this thread except you has interpreted his statements, that this mix is a breed because it's a mix of two known purebred dogs.
> 
> *Doesn't matter that the parents of his dog we not health tested when both breeds are prone to some of the same inherent conditions.* Puppy buyers like this fall for the fact that both parents had some type of registration and figure that makes breeding stock worthy. Puppy buyers like this fall for the 'hybrid vigor' myth


You are running with an assumption here, because no where was it asked, or confirmed, that the parents of LordZedd's pups were not health checked.

. . . . and those kind of assumptions cause problems when they are then stated as if they are a fact.



sscott87 said:


> . . . Holy bejuses, come down broski! . . . .


That is not going to happen. Poking purchasers of mix breeds (like me) in the eye and then suggesting that when they poke back they are over reacting is a bit much. You might think its a small thing, but this type of flaming of those that purposely buy or breed mixbreeds has a history. . . and then those that do it start back tracking and claim they don't mean to insult the dogs.

I don't care whether or not they insult mixbreed dogs. I do care that they are deliberately spreading bigotry against those that breed or buy mixbreed dogs with blanket assertions and misrepresentation of what has been posted.

There is no reason to back off from this and let it slide when it is a guarantee this same type of "overzealous" bashing will continue, and when the misrepresentations are still continuing.

I would not expect those that had - let's say a Koikerhondje - to back off if multiple posters came on a thread with NO information about the dogs origins, and suggested their purchase had to have been ill thought out, the name of the breed was stupid, and they must have purchased from unhealth tested parents just on the fact alone that their dog was that breed, which is exactly what happened on this thread.

SOB


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok..... Just an observation.... But didn't every breed we know today come from F 1 cross breeding? Just a thought.

I have 2 'pure bred' dogs both look like they could have come from breeders & I get asked all the time if they did but they are both rescues. Next year, I plan to get a cane corso puppy from a breeder & I am all ready have contacts with a few that are aware that I would like a puppy next year some time & am on a waiting list (SO EXCITED !!!!!) does that make me a bad person because I want to 'support' breeding? I don't think so personally. What we need is to educate ppl about buying from a good breeder but that's a tall order bc people want what they want, don't like being told no & will get it one way or another, weather it be merchandise or a dog. :/.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> Ok..... Just an observation.... But didn't every breed we know today come from F 1 cross breeding? Just a thought..


Most breeds came from landraces. Some came from crossbreeding. According to a study I posted about today, none are truly ancient - but many have ties to old landraces.



dogdragoness said:


> I have 2 'pure bred' dogs both look like they could have come from breeders & I get asked all the time if they did but they are both rescues. Next year, I plan to get a cane corso puppy from a breeder & I am all ready have contacts with a few that are aware that I would like a puppy next year some time & am on a waiting list (SO EXCITED !!!!!) does that make me a bad person because I want to 'support' breeding? I don't think so personally. What we need is to educate ppl about buying from a good breeder but that's a tall order bc people want what they want, don't like being told no & will get it one way or another, weather it be merchandise or a dog. :/.


If you buy a dog you are a terrible, terrible person (sarc clearly on).

I agree totally. People need to be educated. The most important message, IMO, is to understand that a puppy of any type requires a genuine commitment as they require a ton of time, work and energy, and sometimes you'll want to send them back.

It will also never fully be accomplished and there will ALWAYS be a need for shelters, just as there will ALWAYS be a need for soft places to fall for our two legged kids from homes that fail them. The best we can expect is a reduction in dogs that are given up on and a catch system that manages to stay on top those.

Oops - thought I posted this but didn't. Here is that study on dogs origins - http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...m?fb_ref=.T7-k7oDZBTg.like&fb_source=timeline

SOB


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## rhflan (May 20, 2012)

For what it's worth, in regards to having papers, I think that LordZedd meant that her dog's father and mother were both registered dogs with papers, not that HER dog has some sort of registration (at least that's how I read it, and then was confused by everyone's comments/jumping on LordZedd).


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

spanielorbust said:


> That is not going to happen. Poking purchasers of mix breeds (like me) in the eye and then suggesting that when they poke back they are over reacting is a bit much. You might think its a small thing, but this type of flaming of those that purposely buy or breed mixbreeds has a history. . . and then those that do it start back tracking and claim they don't mean to insult the dogs.
> 
> I don't care whether or not they insult mixbreed dogs. I do care that they are deliberately spreading bigotry against those that breed or buy mixbreed dogs with blanket assertions and misrepresentation of what has been posted.
> 
> ...


I am going against my own last comment and continuing this, because I would like for you to show where I personally have "poked" a purchaser of a mixed breed or put down such in any way. This is no insulting or back-tracking on my part.

I DO find the hype over such "designer" breeds to be ridiculous. They're mixes. Give it a cutesy name if you wish, but it doesn't mean it's not a mix.

I agree completely with you that there is a lot of flaming of such on this thread and often on this forum. It's the biggest flaw I've found on this forum, my opinion anyways, that every so often a thread turns into a purebred vs. mixed debate of some sort and some people do get insulting, or at least it comes off in such a way. I'm reading back through my own posts on this thread at the moment, looking to find what you may find to be an attack on purchasers of mixes, and I'm not finding it. My first post defended LordZedd or the OP (can't remember which of the two stated that both parents of their Jackaranian was documented and purebred)... I see myself having defended mixes as every breed has at some point been created by mixing other breeds... Wait... perhaps you took this offensively...



> But hey, if you want to spend big money on a mixed-breed simply because it's the new, cool thing and you don't want some old news dog, go right ahead. That's absurd reasoning if you're meaning in regards to wanting the "fresh, new thing" rather than a "typical" breed, and probably the biggest reason why the responses toward you are slowly becoming more and more negative. And if you simply meant a "fresh, young pup" as opposed to an "older, adult dog" then you did not look very long, hard or far.
> 
> ...In any case, the JRT x Poms (or Jackaranians, I actually think THAT "designer" name almost sounds cool) are pretty cute-looking. Even so, I'd bet if each of you were to describe your dogs, there'd be at least 2 very different answers of the 3 (I think) of you that have posted having one.


Yes, I did insult one reason for someone buying a mixed-breed. 



> I'm not even going to lie; I don't know exactly what is meant by "F1" but I do get the jist of it from the context. Still though, not certain as to what you mean exactly, whether you're arguing my point or not. Regardless, my point was rather general and encompassing in the fact that new breeds begin as mutts, whether there is a vision or not. Yes, those actually truly intending to create a breed or to better a breed in some way put all sorts of time, energy, knowledge, and research into it because they are looking for a specific result of some sort, as opposed to simply "I'll put this purebred with that purebred and surely will come up with a cool, 'different' pup." GSDs were created from numerous breeds to be a working dog with specific traits. Today, they're a popular dog with the ability to excel at various jobs and activities. When they began? They were little more than a mutt. The "little more" part being that someone had a vision. I'm not condoning in any way breeding mixes just to breed them.


And you can quite easily read an insult from that directed at anyone breeding mixed pups just for the heck of it.

Now, if I'm wrong and have read too much into your most recent responses, and you are not directing them specifically at ME but rather generalizing the responses on this thread, I do apologize for jumping to defend myself so strongly. However, if you are directing any of that specifically my way as I read it, please go back and read again, explain to me what issue you took from what specifically that I posted, and I can further explain myself and likely put to rest any misunderstanding between you and I, because I have no issue with mixed breeds in any way shape or form, but merely anyone breeding mixes just for the sake of breeding mixes or to make a quick buck, and anyone that spends big money on a "designer" breed just because of the comment stated early on about "Some want a fresh pup not some old dog." That's a ridiculous reason and I stand by that opinion, but in the end it is indeed simply an opinion and it's not my money nor is it going to hurt anyone.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

That's exactly what LordZedd said, and in that sense that because of it, he had a little more certainty as to what he was getting. Which isn't wrong in any way. Some people did somehow misconstrue that as if he were claiming his Pom had some sort of awesome registration. This thread has turned into a ridiculous amount of misconstrued quotes and I wish someone would shut it down so I can turn away more easily lol

And when in the world did this turn into anyone implying that someone is a bad person for purchasing any dog, even a purebred, from a breeder? I seriously missed whoever's comment said that one lol



> I would not expect those that had - let's say a Koikerhondje - to back off if multiple posters came on a thread with NO information about the dogs origins, and suggested their purchase had to have been ill thought out, the name of the breed was stupid, and they must have purchased from unhealth tested parents just on the fact alone that their dog was that breed, *which is exactly what happened on this thread.*
> 
> SOB


We agree! I knew I didn't really have much of a disagreement with you


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Maybe she means me, because I was explaining how the AKK was a breed and not a mix? It seems like that Kooikerhondje comment was a poke at that. I wasn't saying that the AKK is _better_, though (well, I mean, I think they're better than a lot of breeds and mixes, but I'm biased ), just explaining how I distinguish a breed from an f1 mix.



> Compare this to the "Jack-A-Ranian" -- which is always a first-generation mix of a Jack Russell and a Pomeranian, with no attempt to breed to a specific size, temperament or look, no breed club setting standards, no records kept of every Jack-A-Ranian bred, no code of ethics, no attempt to become recognized by any legitimate registry -- and the difference is clear.


I didn't say anything about health testing, though, nor did I say that every breeder of mixes is unethical (not having a code of ethics doesn't make one unethical; it just shows that there's no group overseeing breeding of this mix, which distinguishes this mix's breeders from people who are looking to create a new breed/start up a breed club). I also didn't "start back tracking and claim [I didn't] mean to insult the dogs."

I thought I'd said this in this thread, but it's actually from another one. I'll repost here anyway:



> I don't actually have an issue with breeding mixed-breed dogs as long as it's done responsibly... which for _me_ (I agree with SOB that this is subjective) includes the necessary health testing for either breed and the parents preferably having been proven in some way (not necessarily conformation). I also like to see similar contracts, health guarantees and support that a responsible breeder of purebreds would offer. I would run from any breeder who I felt overbred or was in it for the money, whether they bred purebreds or mixes. It's hard to make sweeping generalizations, though, because nobody is perfect; you really have to choose your breed, investigate breeders, and go with what feels right to you.


That was from here:

Back when I joined the forum a few years ago, I believe I did say that all breeders of mixes were unethical, and I assumed they were all "BYBs" who were in it only for the money and didn't health test. My views on that have certainly evolved, thanks in part to SOB's posts.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Just so you know, I looked up LordZedd's FB page, he lists where he got his dog, it was from a pet store, so I highly doubt the parents are tested. I also did a search on Jackaranians, there are no breeders of this mix that even resemble reputable, all mix various breeds. The chances that the dog came from tested stock are extreamemly slim.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

What a shame, what a shame. Could have rescued prolly that exact dog from a shelter at a fraction of the price & you would have been actually supporting a good cause


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Maybe she means me, because I was explaining how the AKK was a breed and not a mix? It seems like that Kooikerhondje comment was a poke at that. I wasn't saying that the AKK is _better_, though (well, I mean, I think they're better than a lot of breeds and mixes, but I'm biased ), just explaining how I distinguish a breed from an f1 mix. . .


Crantastic I was not referring to anything in that post, or about the AKK at all. If you go through the first few pages of this thread some posts are very obvious in their intent. Others are blatant.

The comment about the Kooikerhondje was just meant to demonstrate that if a poster came onto a forum and stated they had a young Kooikerhondje puppy that was looking wonky, and asked opinion about whether the breeder had misrepresented the parent dogs - and posts followed that said the same things the following 9 did about a Kooikerhondje and the type of person that would breed them, other Kooikerhondje owners would be up in arms. AND if they were I'd be right there behind them as well. 

My first thoughts on reading the OPs question were to advise getting his friend to ask the breeders of said dog - but what I saw was a blatant gang up of posts deliberately ridiculing and making assumptions about the breeder - ON NO INFORMATION - and without requesting any either!

I don't like the conformation traits of many breeds . . . but will always defend the owners of those breeds when someone makes a point of ridiculing their dog and their choice in the manner such as I saw here. Statements of FACTS about problems are not the difficulty. Blanket unfounded assertions that make generalizations and promote stereotypes about groups of people (like those that might breed or buy a mixed dog) are.



> Just so you know, I looked up LordZedd's FB page, he lists where he got his dog, it was from a pet store, so I highly doubt the parents are tested. I also did a search on Jackaranians, there are no breeders of this mix that even resemble reputable, all mix various breeds. The chances that the dog came from tested stock are extreamemly slim.


I'm sure the CHANCES are just as slim as for the average someone that gets a Pomeranian or a JRT, but I'm sure if someone came on this thread with a young JRT or Pom and said they were a few months old and looking wonky the following 9 posts would not match what this thread's posts said. The explanations would be more along the line of - they go through stages - or - not all dogs in a breed end out meeting standard - or - he might be a throw back - or . . . . 

With regard to health testing, in every breed we have a tiny percent of breeder testing for SOME things. None of those tests provides even a tiny assurance that the parent dog is healthy or comes from healthy stock - just that it has passed a certain battary of tests. Better than not testing - sometimes, but not always. It depends on what the breeders know of the dogs used and those dogs background. Even though SOME Pom breeders test for CHD, I would not expect Pomeranian breeders to test for hips, as an example, unless a relative showed affects from this problem that is very rare in Poms. Do you expect every small breed to get MRIs now that we know there are SM cases in almost all of them?

I have in my home on a regular basis a Cavalier that passes tests for breeding. Hips good, heart clear at 4, eyes passed through a specialist, good blood counts, his parents both made it past 5 with a clear heart, and both are long lived. His mom has many MRId grade A descendents. He has problems with his back however, and has a sensitive digestive system. Those are things that there are test results are not reportable on. He has passed more tests than the average purebred or mixed breed would ever be tested on, and more tests than most North American Cavaliers are tested on, would look great on CHIC, but is not worthy of breeding. I'm glad his owner thinks that too.

Was his owner ripped off and a fool for purchasing a dog with heightened chances of difficulties that can't be effectively tested for? 

If a person came on a thread to ask about their newly purchased Cavalier showing difficulties would poster after poster on this forum immediately post what a fool they've been for their risky purchase and then insinuate or state that ALL Cavalier breeders are untrustable?

I just don't think so. I believe every single poster would attempt to be polite and kind even though there might be some who disagree with their original choice of purchase.

SOB


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Health testing is a tricky one for me. I always kind of use the shorthand "proper health tests" when telling people what I would look for in a breeder, but I agree, there are SO many and some of them are more worthwhile than others. I think each person has to research their breed of choice fully, talk to breeders, and decide which health tests (if any) they need the parents of their potential puppy to have. 

For example, with my AKK, I absolutely needed to ensure that the breeder tested both parents for Factor VII status, as it's a hemophilia-type bleeding disorder than can result in a dead dog if you unknowingly take an affected one in for something as simple as a spay or neuter (they can bleed out on the table -- and my vet can't do blood transfusions, so it was very important to me that I get a carrier or clear pup). I also wanted to see that the patellas were checked, as I've come to learn that bad knees are pretty common in this breed. There were no other health tests I absolutely required the parent dogs to have; anything extra would just have been nice to see.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

SOB>> still trying to wrap my head around your last post -_- lol it was very deep.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I expect nearly all small breeds to be CERF tested, OFA for patellas and Elbows and tested for thyroid as well as any sexually transmitted disease as well as cleared for diabetes (common in small breed and thyroid and diabetes should be tested every year) there are other, breed specific conditions I'd ask about as well. Yeah, I'm picky after the experiances I've had. I'd like to see that not only the parents, but prior litters, and previous generations be tested and cleared as well. Yes, I've been known to literally look for breeders on the OFA website.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

But I guess if you rescue from shelter you take a risk of getting an animal with a genetic defect also don't you? Bc most of them are not planned or not planned WELL .


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> But I guess if you rescue from shelter you take a risk of getting an animal with a genetic defect also don't you? Bc most of them are not planned or not planned WELL .


I think the real distinction there is if your dog comes from the shelter in that event, your money supports the shelter, not the person creating dogs with genetic defects. Jonas has PRA and I wouldn't have paid a dime for him from the "breeder" he came from initially, or the mill he was sold to. I did happily pay $250 to a rescue for him.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

No, no I didn't mean that it's equally 'bad' to adopt a dog as it is to buy from that random person selling cute 'poos' of of thr back of their truck or something. But I was just saying that since most of those 'pickup' dogs end up in shelters, it's possible to get a dog with a defect there also.

Sorry I didn't make mysel clear :/


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

It's OK, I didn't think that! I just meant if it came down to that, it's more look at what you're supporting than the possibilities of genetic defect.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

TWAB>> agreed


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> Just so you know, I looked up LordZedd's FB page...


That's a bit creepy, actually.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

All this makes me think of an encounter I had at the pet store last week..

Hamilton and I were standing in line behind a woman buying dog food, and she asked what kind of dog he was. I said he was a dachshund mix, but we didn't know what the mix was because he was from the shelter. First she started rambling about how she doesn't understand why people keep getting small dogs (I explained that it fit into our lifestyle better), then shifted to going on and on about how its so great to have a mutt, how mixed breeds really are so much healthier, and it's so great when people have mutts, and that she should have gotten a mixed breed. I asked "What kind of dog do you have?"

"A Labradoodle"

*facepalm*


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Hambonez said:


> All this makes me think of an encounter I had at the pet store last week..
> 
> Hamilton and I were standing in line behind a woman buying dog food, and she asked what kind of dog he was. I said he was a dachshund mix, but we didn't know what the mix was because he was from the shelter. First she started rambling about how she doesn't understand why people keep getting small dogs (I explained that it fit into our lifestyle better), then shifted to going on and on about how its so great to have a mutt, how mixed breeds really are so much healthier, and it's so great when people have mutts, and that she should have gotten a mixed breed. I asked "What kind of dog do you have?"
> 
> ...


LOL thats almost as bad as someone going to an expensive store loike Petsmart/Petco for food & coming out with Beneful, Alpo, Bil-jac or (insert approprate food brand here) ..... but thats a whole nuther thread, its just more proof that Common sense died with evolution in humans :/


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

But again, why the assumption that she got her labradoodle from a poor breeder just because she is ignorant about (or misunderstood) the concept of "hybrid vigor" and/or health of mixes? Someone who doesn't really understand genetics (which is most people quite frankly) could easily transpose the idea of "my labradoodle is healthy because the breeding stock was healthy" to "my dog is healthy because it is a labradoodle" but the assumption is immediately negative.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Sass I think the key words for the /faceplam where the woman saying she should have gotten a mixed breed then answering she has a labradoodle.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ah yes, I misread and misunderstood who the lady was referencing.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

sassafras said:


> That's a bit creepy, actually.


its not actually. because of what lordzedd said, you get people who think then this:



sscott87 said:


> That's exactly what LordZedd said, and in that sense that because of it, he had a little more certainty as to what he was getting. Which isn't wrong in any way.


which is NOT the case. he lied about everything.... then we have new people, who may be uneducated about breeding, thinking everything is hunky dory and purchase a dog because it was "health tested" by going to the vet and getting a checkup.



spanielorbust said:


> Was his owner ripped off and a fool for purchasing a dog with heightened chances of difficulties that can't be effectively tested for?
> 
> If a person came on a thread to ask about their newly purchased Cavalier showing difficulties would poster after poster on this forum immediately post what a fool they've been for their risky purchase and then insinuate or state that ALL Cavalier breeders are untrustable?


 not really. no one would think they had been ripped off. some things happen even with all the proper health testing done. we who understand breeding, understand that. why would we state that all cav breeders are "untrustable"? thats just silly. if you know many of the posters here, the first thing that would be said would be to get it to a vet to find out what is going on, and go from there. no one is high on a horse with "purebred" vs "mixed breed", MANY of our educated posters have mixed breed dogs. i have seen people post with problems from a purebred dog. the first post? go to a vet. after that, is it genetic? was it caused by poor breeding? was it covered in your contract? have you talked to your breeder about it? no one says "well you got ripped off". sometimes, when its proven to be a poor breeder that caused it there will be education to follow like "look at this link, it says what testing the breeder should be doing." or "next time you buy a puppy, do these checks to make sure youre getting a healthy dog."

i bought a dog from a backyard breeder my first time.... i came on this forum in the process of learning about how to choose a good breeder. no one here EVER told me i was a bad person or anything of the likes. they told me they were sorry for what i went through, and helped me educate myself better. im proud to say im a firm advocate of proper breeding because of what i had to go through, and educate people ever chance i get. you know how many people who have come to this forum saying "im getting (such and such dog)!" and are then educated and choose a better breeder? you know how many people have been saved the heartache? a lot!


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

I have to wonder, are the attitudes towards mixed breed dog breeders -- when people take the view that they are unilaterally irresponsible simply because they are breeding mixes -- actually reinforcing the status quo, where there are very few (proportionally) that are responsible?

Maybe, as many purebred dog breeds continue their downward decline, and more breeders become aware of genetic diversity issues and more open to outcrossing (to other breeds), breeding mixes will get less taboo. And maybe if it gets less taboo, we'll suddenly see more responsible mixed-breed breeders out there.

That would make me very happy.


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## KaywinnitLee (Jan 1, 2012)

The problem is there is SUCH an overpopulation of dogs, especially mixed-breed dogs that there is no responsible way to breed them because that act in and of itself is irresponsible. Of course, many people will argue that many purebred dogs started out as mixed-breed dogs...while this is true, I feel most mixed-breed dog breeders are looking to cash in on the trend of popularity of dogs such as "Jack-A-Ranians." They are simply throwing two dogs together and depending on those cute puppies to make them rich. I went to the pet store yesterday and there were so many mixed breed puppies, all ranging from $1,200 to $3,000. It's horrible. People assume there are no puppies available to rescue, and that is absolutely untrue. There are so many GREAT dogs and puppies looking for homes, but people are lazy and don't want to go through the trouble to adopt and would rather take the easier path of picking up a dog at a store and going home with it. I shouldn't generalize completely because obviously this is not "the whole" on Dog Forums...but it seems to be "the whole" where I live. Let me also state that I have no problem with those who buy dogs from RESPONSIBLE breeders. I myself very much enjoy having my Aussie mix girl who was probably picked up as a cute pup and then dumped when the owner realized owning a dog goes so far beyond choosing one.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

KaywinnitLee said:


> The problem is there is SUCH an overpopulation of dogs, especially mixed-breed dogs that there is no responsible way to breed them because *that act in and of itself is irresponsible*... Let me also state that I have no problem with those who buy dogs from RESPONSIBLE breeders. I myself very much enjoy having my Aussie mix girl who was probably picked up as a cute pup and then dumped when the owner realized owning a dog goes so far beyond choosing one.


(bold added)

I think that a lot of people disagree with this. What is essentially different about breeding mixes vs. purebred dogs, if you are following all the criteria of a responsible breeder? The sheer fact that there are more mixed-breed dogs in shelters doesn't mean breeding them is inherently irresponsible -- then the same would be true for purebred dogs, because there ARE purebred dogs in shelters and even more in rescues.


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## KaywinnitLee (Jan 1, 2012)

What is the purpose of breeding a mixed-breed dog? Can you show me examples of responsible mixed-breed dog breeders for specific mixed-breeds? I realize some mixed-breeds such as "goldendoodles" are now very popular and perhaps those breeders are "more responsible" than most who are just throwing two dogs together but personally I have seen VERY few mixed-breed dog breeders who are even close to responsible. IMO the things these dogs are being bred for (ie-hypoallergenic) can be found in breeds that already exist and specialization and improvement of those breeds should be the focus before trying to create new ones and in the mean time creating more of an overpopulation issue...but of course not everyone agrees with that.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

There are irresponsible purebred breeders just as there are ethical mixed breed breeders. The difference here is that the majority of the mixed breed breeders ARE irresponsible - do you really think the majority of people breeding Pit Bull/Boxer crosses are health and temperament testing? Or the ones breeding "chiweenies" that are charging an arm and a leg to cover that 50 dollar wellness check they had done at the vet to ensure their dogs were "breed worthy"? 

I'm willing to bet that since there ARE more mixed breeds in shelters that it does in fact mean the majority of their breeding is done irresponsibly*. Just as I agree that the majority of purebreds in shelters are there due to irresponsibility*. 

(Irresponsible/ility falls not only with breeders but also with the buyers who don't do their research and don't know what they're getting into)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

KaywinnitLee said:


> What is the purpose of breeding a mixed-breed dog? Can you show me examples of responsible mixed-breed dog breeders for specific mixed-breeds? I realize some mixed-breeds such as "goldendoodles" are now very popular and perhaps those breeders are "more responsible" than most who are just throwing two dogs together but personally I have seen VERY few mixed-breed dog breeders who are even close to responsible. IMO the things these dogs are being bred for (ie-hypoallergenic) can be found in breeds that already exist and specialization and improvement of those breeds should be the focus before trying to create new ones and in the mean time creating more of an overpopulation issue...but of course not everyone agrees with that.


In some cases hybrids are filling niches that purebreds can't. F1s can be very consistent and do the job. There are people breeding F1 (and further) crosses for dog sports like flyball and agility. Flyball in particular because there is a need for a very fast, small dog on a team. I'll admit the borderstaffies intrigue me. I'd consider one or a borderwhippet.

Lurchers (sighthound crosses) are bred for sport and hunting. Alaskan huskies or Eurohounds are not traditional 'pure breds' and are bred for sledding and racing. 

Bandogs are another well known cross bred. 

Some guide dog groups will cross breed.

I've known of farmers (in the family) that cross ACDs and BCs to work their cattle.

Then there are the people breeding for pets. I've seen cockapoo breeders, labradoodle/goldendoodle breeders that health test and seem to be trying to do right by their dogs.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

GreatDaneMom said:


> its not actually.


It is to me. You don't have to agree.



KaywinnitLee said:


> The problem is there is SUCH an overpopulation of dogs, especially mixed-breed dogs that there is no responsible way to breed them because that act in and of itself is irresponsible.


Don't agree with this at all, but there are threads and threads about it where I've stated my position clearly, I'm not gonna type it all out again.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Niraya said:


> There are irresponsible purebred breeders just as there are ethical mixed breed breeders. The difference here is that the majority of the mixed breed breeders ARE irresponsible - do you really think the majority of people breeding Pit Bull/Boxer crosses are health and temperament testing? Or the ones breeding "chiweenies" that are charging an arm and a leg to cover that 50 dollar wellness check they had done at the vet to ensure their dogs were "breed worthy"?
> 
> I'm willing to bet that since there ARE more mixed breeds in shelters that it does in fact mean the majority of their breeding is done irresponsibly*. Just as I agree that the majority of purebreds in shelters are there due to irresponsibility*.
> 
> (Irresponsible/ility falls not only with breeders but also with the buyers who don't do their research and don't know what they're getting into)


Anyone who breeds ANY dog breed for thr sole purpose to make money is unethical IMHO.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Anyone who breeds ANY dog breed for thr sole purpose to make money is unethical IMHO.


I completely agree. I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear .


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I could understand if they were outcrossing to improve an existing breed, but you can tell (I mean 'jack -a-rainian???? :/) or if you are going to cross two breeds at least cross two from the same 'group' (working/working, herding/herding etc...) not cross a dog that is meant for companionship & nothing else with perhaps one of the baddest ass earth dog's (JRTs) around.... It creates a very confused dog IMHO.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> That's a bit creepy, actually.


It's part of being a moderator, I will look people up if I suspect they are just trying to stir the pot or could be misrepresenting themselves. I have an investigative background, so it kinda come naturally that do searches on potential troublemakers.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KaywinnitLee said:


> What is the purpose of breeding a mixed-breed dog? Can you show me examples of responsible mixed-breed dog breeders for specific mixed-breeds? I realize some mixed-breeds such as "goldendoodles" are now very popular and perhaps those breeders are "more responsible" than most who are just throwing two dogs together but personally I have seen VERY few mixed-breed dog breeders who are even close to responsible. IMO the things these dogs are being bred for (ie-hypoallergenic) can be found in breeds that already exist and specialization and improvement of those breeds should be the focus before trying to create new ones and in the mean time creating more of an overpopulation issue...but of course not everyone agrees with that.


Actually there are good reasons for mixing and there are ethical ways of doing so. Mixing is the way breeds arencreated and sometimes there is the NEED to outcross to save a breed or help improve the health of the breed. Those things I have no problem with. It's the current 'trend' of crossing breeds just to make a buck I cannot stand.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> It's part of being a moderator, I will look people up if I suspect they are just trying to stir the pot or could be misrepresenting themselves. I have an investigative background, so it kinda come naturally that do searches on potential troublemakers.


And post the results for public consumption? I'm sure I'm treading close enough to BSM for this conversation to be abruptly ended soon, but I just don't think that's appropriate to post publicly.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

sassafras said:


> But again, why the assumption that she got her labradoodle from a poor breeder just because she is ignorant about (or misunderstood) the concept of "hybrid vigor" and/or health of mixes? Someone who doesn't really understand genetics (which is most people quite frankly) could easily transpose the idea of "my labradoodle is healthy because the breeding stock was healthy" to "my dog is healthy because it is a labradoodle" but the assumption is immediately negative.





dagwall said:


> Sass I think the key words for the /faceplam where the woman saying she should have gotten a mixed breed then answering she has a labradoodle.


Yep! That. I just thought it was funny that she considered a labradoodle to be a purebred dog. If that's what she wants to spend her money on, then may she have many happy years with her doodle!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Sass, I haven't done anything that any member of this forum couldn't do. I believe a few have, in fact done the exact same and posted far more information on the person than I have, they are all still here. It's public information, easily attainable and there for the world to see.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

If you don't want people to know your business, don't place it publicly on the internet for all to access! Woohoo! 

Back to the jackaranians!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> Sass, I haven't done anything that any member of this forum couldn't do.


You're not any member of this forum, you're a moderator. Obviously we disagree on appropriate behavior for that position. *shrug*


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> Sass, I haven't done anything that any member of this forum couldn't do. I believe a few have, in fact done the exact same and posted far more information on the person than I have, they are all still here. It's public information, easily attainable and there for the world to see.


If they posted their Facebook page like... On their profile page or something, then they WANT people looking at it (which is the reason why someone would put anything on FB anyway. It's about a DOG, it's not like you were delving into their bank files or something :/ 

Just saying


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> If they posted their Facebook page like... On their profile page or something, then they WANT people looking at it (which is the reason why someone would put anything on FB anyway. It's about a DOG, it's not like you were delving into their bank files or something :/
> 
> Just saying


Yea, IF they posted their FB page on their profile page.

I just think it's hinky to use mod powers to find personal information about people, then post that publicly. I've seen it happen before with respect to things like using IP addresses to find locations and post them, and it makes me uncomfortable. *shrug*


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## bekirrn1 (Apr 4, 2013)

I have a Jack a ranian that I adopted. She is the cutest little doggie. She looks like a mini German Shepard too but her tail doesn't curl up and she has a mane like a pom but not as thick.


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## bekirrn1 (Apr 4, 2013)

I paid for my "pom/jack" mix but she was a rescue and cost went to shots, vet, spay and heart worm pills not to a "breeder"


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> If they posted their Facebook page like... On their profile page or something, then they WANT people looking at it (which is the reason why someone would put anything on FB anyway. It's about a DOG, it's not like you were delving into their bank files or something :/
> 
> Just saying


I'm with Sass on this one and I have to say I disagree about the role of moderator. As I see it the role of mod is to monitor and enforce standards of behaviour on_ this site_. Not to investigate members and expose perceived hypocrisy or put personal decisions up for dissection by the forum at large. Many members don't want their personal information published or want to keep their internet persona detached from their real life one - which is why most of us choose usernames that aren't Firstname Lastname. Its for anonymity. No one here, mod or otherwise should be looking to take that away from someone. If anything the mods have a _higher_ duty to protect privacy than the average user since they have access to information the user has specifically chosen not to share with the public.

Anyways.... To the topic at hand, I suspect I have a Jack-a-ranian. He looks very spitzy but definitely has a good dose of terrier in there.










EDIT: Oooops. This thread is quite old. Well, I still stand by my opinion even though the issue is an old one.


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