# "E" collar question



## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am training at a new facility. I am in a class geared for dogs competing in AKC Open.

Last night, a dog was intentionally bumping the dumb bell so he could then pounce on it and retrieve it. He was ALWAYS finishing the retrieve, but had added the "bump." Well, the trainer came out with an "E" collar and put it on the dog. I asked if the dog had ever worn the collar. I was told No. I asked if I could leash my dog while they figured out the stim level in the event that the already reactive and aggressive dog screamed or reacted erratically. This dog has charged my dog several times already and I wanted to know that I had my dog under control if the dog went off. They said they would tell me when they were going to use the collar. 

Well, they forgot. The dog went out for a retrieve and as he bumped the dumb bell, they used the collar and he started YIPEing. They grabbed him and made him finish the retrieve. Then, they started using the collar whenever he would vocalize, which he has been doing unchecked for the few weeks I have been there.

I think this is insanity. The risk of making the dog stop retrieving seems high and stiming him when he's already reactive seems ill-advised. Also, I thought that E collars were usually worn for a while before use, like for a couple of weeks, to keep the dog from becoming collar savvy. 

Perhaps I am ill-informed. Does this application of an e collar seem right to those of you with e collar experience? I haven't ever used one, although I bought one for a fence fighter. While I was conditioning her to the collar, I fixed the behavior before I ever had to turn the thing on.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

I would not stay in this class and I would tell the instructors why. While I am not a big fan of ecollars, I think there are mindful ways of using them to explain things to the dog and there are stupid and careless ways of using them. IMO, this falls in the stupid and careless category.The other question that comes up, of course, is what are you (general you - I realize you aren't the one doing this) willing to do to your dog to get a few extra points in a dog sport?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

This will be interesting and you can tell us as the training continues. The few times that I did e-collar work the dog wore a dummy collar for a couple weeks before work started and I only used collar as last resort. I only used the collar for one problem with a dog whatever that problem was, never used it for 2 problems with one dog.

So I personally would not have corrected for a bump and then right a way for a yelp. I liked the use of a dummy collar before during and after work. When the work was done e-collar removed and dummy back on etc etc etc. Is this the correct way, well it's the way I decided to use it.

PS, trainer is jerk for not warning you.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

For me, the question is whether or not I attend the last 3 sessions that I paid for or if I just split now. I won't re-enroll unless someone can offer me an explanation that makes last night make sense. Unfortunately, my classes are bundled and I paid for 2 dogs to take an obedience and an agility class each, so the money I am leaving on the table is equal to 4 classes. I don't do things to my dogs just because someone tells me to, so my dogs will not be the next in line for this treatment. 

I like the people a lot. I think they're great. But I think they had no business using a tool they didn't understand better. Unless I am the one that's wrong here. 

Personally, I am unwilling to compromise a relationship with my dogs for a couple extra points. I DO use adversives, sometimes big ones even, but I reserve them for life issues, like total disprespect, biting, body slamming, etc. It rarely, rarely use them, but if I raise my voice just a touch, my dogs change their behavior.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I would stay in class because as you said he cannot touch your dog without your permission so just use the class as a program to learn what should not be done to a dog. In most classes you are gonna learn some good and some not so good stuff, hopefully common sense helps with the separation of the good and bad.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

If you like the folks there, and the training programs apart from this incident, then quitting now will benefit them to your detriment. You get no value for your $$$ and they get money for nothing.

If you want to make a statement, wait till it's over then tell 'em how you feel.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

If you are getting good results with YOUR dog and they aren't pressuring you into anything you don't want to do to your dog.. I would finish out the classes I paid for and not return. I would absolutely let them know why I wasn't returning. That is very sloppy training ESPECIALLY for a dog with issues. I know my reactive/aggressive dog would regress terribly just being in the room with that happening, let alone if he was the one being trained that way. 

My Rally trainer is not the trainer who worked my behavioral issues with Brody. She is hesitant to do anything that may derail our progress, simply because she admitted she is not well versed or experienced in working with aggressive dogs, so if we had a minor regression because of something she suggested, she wouldn't be able to help me get back on track.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> If you are getting good results with YOUR dog and they aren't pressuring you into anything you don't want to do to your dog.. I would finish out the classes I paid for and not return. I would absolutely let them know why I wasn't returning. That is very sloppy training ESPECIALLY for a dog with issues. I know my reactive/aggressive dog would regress terribly just being in the room with that happening, let alone if he was the one being trained that way.
> 
> My Rally trainer is not the trainer who worked my behavioral issues with Brody. She is hesitant to do anything that may derail our progress, simply because she admitted she is not well versed or experienced in working with aggressive dogs, so if we had a minor regression because of something she suggested, she wouldn't be able to help me get back on track.


I suppose I would question their judgement/focus in other situations if this is their first choice to fix a dog for bumping the DB. It's more than just a single bad call. It's a piece of their philosophy. I would find it difficult to trust them. I also find that when my dog witnesses another dog being abused, it can be a negative experience for them. And it can be a negative experience for me. Thing is - if I have paid for a piece of meat and it is spoiled, I'm going to throw it away. I'm not going to cook and eat it because I've already paid for it.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think this is insanity. The risk of making the dog stop retrieving seems high and stiming him when he's already reactive seems ill-advised. Also, I thought that E collars were usually worn for a while before use, like for a couple of weeks, to keep the dog from becoming collar savvy.


Not the way I would have handled it, but the way I would have handled it would have taken longer.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> I suppose I would question their judgement/focus in other situations if this is their first choice to fix a dog for bumping the DB. It's more than just a single bad call. It's a piece of their philosophy. I would find it difficult to trust them. I also find that when my dog witnesses another dog being abused, it can be a negative experience for them. And it can be a negative experience for me. Thing is - if I have paid for a piece of meat and it is spoiled, I'm going to throw it away. I'm not going to cook and eat it because I've already paid for it.


It's really going to depend on the OP and their dog and how traumatizing the situation was for both of them. I would not continue the classes myself because dogs screaming in pain tends to trigger panic attacks for me. I know Brody would have had a MAJOR setback if he witnessed that, however Charlotte would not be phased by it in the least. My ex wouldn't have been too horribly traumatized by it, however that may be part of why he's now my ex-husband. 

For me there would be no question about losing the last 3 sessions.. I would high tail it out of there. The OP and his/her dog may be able to finish out the class fine and gain something from it, then go on to greener pastures.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I think I will likely stay in the class for the remainder of the sessions. My male gets over things quickly. He is a touch sound-sensitive, so this may actually be okay for him. The e collar dog frequently barks and lounges at my dog when I am working recalls, and this has been an incredible proofing exercise for him.

My female is pretty soft. In the second to last session, when the e collar dog got scruffed to screaming for a crooked front, my female started to charge him as if to kill him. The screaming was bad, and my female was going to attack. She took several steps before I called her back, and to her credit, she came back right away. I don't think that the trainer condones much of this heavy-handedness, but she doesn't try to stop it either. The trainer was the one to bring out the e collar. It was probably less damaging than some of the other techniques the owner employs. 

Every week, I leave feeling a bit sick. My dogs are so much more advanced with so much less training. I am floored by the e collar dog's willingness to keep working and keep trying. The dog's drive is amazing. If mine were treated that way, they would kill me in my sleep. They wouldn't work for me if they were that concerned about consequences.

There are many ways to learn. Watching all of this stuff affirms my belief that relationship comes before training even though training shapes the relationship... I do worry that I will one day "go off" and say what I'm thinking. They already see it in the flatness of my eyes and the way I turn away from the worst of it.

Maybe that's not all bad.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> In the second to last session, when the e collar dog got scruffed to screaming for a crooked front, my female started to charge him as if to kill him. The screaming was bad, and my female was going to attack. She took several steps before I called her back, and to her credit, she came back right away. I don't think that the trainer condones much of this heavy-handedness, but she doesn't try to stop it either. The trainer was the one to bring out the e collar. It was probably less damaging than some of the other techniques the owner employs.


Ok.. this changes everything.. RUN, don't walk from that place. No one, especially a dog professional should tolerate that kind of abuse in their presence. This isn't/wasn't an isolated incident. No wonder that dog is a reactive mess. Your female is given a chance to rehearse undesirable behaviors in response to that dog, which may lead to a problem in the long run.

Relationship should always come before training, but in some cases a dog is damaged to the point where they don't know how to build a trusting relationship with a human without some training. It says a lot about the character of that dog that nobody has been hurt yet. Brody amazes me every day with how he can learn to love people after being starved, beaten, shocked, and have cigarettes put out on his face, all during his formative years. He's turned into an amazing dog, possibly OTCH material if he continues his progress in rally.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> I asked if I could leash my dog while they figured out the stim level in the event that the already reactive and aggressive dog screamed or reacted erratically.


I wouldn't have asked. 

IMO this trainer has shown very poor judgement on more than one occassion. In light of that I'd prefer, scratch that, INSIST to excercise my own judgement. Without "permission".

Ultimately, YOU are the only advocate your dog has in his/her corner.


Personally ? ... I agree with the spoiled meat analogy.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I think I was misunderstood in that statement. I asked to be notified when the stim would be taking place SO I could leash my dog. My asking was just to make sure I was informed when the stim was taking place. I was being polite. I don't need permission to leash my dog. I was just wanting to make sure I was informed. 

It sucks that I wasn't.

To be fair, there are some up-sides to this trainer. I got jump-started on open work and was able to by-pass the forced retreive. The trainer has been very good about accepting my boundries with MY dogs and letting me do my own thing. Not all trainers would be so tolerant.

In 6 weeks, we have gone from doing no open work to a 195 in the AKC ring. That's a lot of ground to cover fast.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> In the second to last session, when the e collar dog got scruffed to screaming for a crooked front, my female started to charge him as if to kill him. The screaming was bad, and my female was going to attack. She took several steps before I called her back, and to her credit, she came back right away. I don't think that the trainer condones much of this heavy-handedness, but she doesn't try to stop it either. The trainer was the one to bring out the e collar. It was probably less damaging than some of the other techniques the owner employs.


Yea I wouldn't be returning to a class where a trainer allowed this to happen, for two reasons. First, scruffing a dog to screaming... I don't need to see that and neither do my dogs, and if it's not stopped then it IS condoned in class and I don't want to be around it. Second, part of the trainer's responsibility IMO is to prevent or manage situations that can trigger incidents between dogs. If that dog getting scruffed to screaming provokes other dogs to attack, then something needs to be done differently - either the dogs are separated/rotated through the main training area, or something to prevent it from happening. If the trainer didn't address that after this had happened, I wouldn't be back.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

OK, I'm gonna repeat, this stuff with some dogs does work, yes there is sometimes screaming etc etc etc. I'm still gonna stick with the OP watching and learning what to do and what not to do. There are many reasons why I think this particular trainer is a loser. The whole approach in my opinion a*s-backwards. I'm still interested in spite of this trainer's shortcomings whether the dog does the retrieve minus the bump/barking etc. If so it's a marvelous dog and this program could have been accomplished without collar or at the very least a different approach using the collar.

Of course this is only an online opinion from somebody who is not viewing action or reading the dog. The trainer reading is much easier as he/she is pretty much a Marquis De Sade type trainer not operating with a full deck.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

wvasko said:


> OK, I'm gonna repeat, this stuff with some dogs does work, yes there is sometimes screaming etc etc etc.


My reasons for leaving wouldn't have anything to do with whether or not it works. It may work great, but it's not for me and I simply don't want to be around it. And if I had a dog reactive to it to the point that it provoked an attack, I wouldn't want her to be around it either. *shrug*


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

sassafras said:


> My reasons for leaving wouldn't have anything to do with whether or not it works. It may work great, but it's not for me and I simply don't want to be around it. And if I had a dog reactive to it to the point that it provoked an attack, I wouldn't want her to be around it either. *shrug*


I do understand not wanting to be around it. I said a very long time ago on DF that it was a extreme way to train and if used should be a last resort and/or used by somebody who has experience.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

.. and definitely NOT in a group class. I can just see that going so very wrong in so many ways. Don't air your dirty laundry out in public and all that.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

wvasko said:


> I'm still interested in spite of this trainer's shortcomings whether the dog does the retrieve minus the bump/barking etc.


Me too. I'm betting dollars to donuts that there's at least SOME fallout, if not IMMENSE fallout.

A video of before and after would tell the tale, I'm sure.


Playfulness in a dog is something I would re-arrange and capitalize on, not something I would suppress through violence. Not in a million years.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> To be fair, there are some up-sides to this trainer. I got jump-started on open work and was able to by-pass the forced retreive. The trainer has been very good about accepting my boundries with MY dogs and letting me do my own thing. Not all trainers would be so tolerant.
> In 6 weeks, we have gone from doing no open work to a 195 in the AKC ring. That's a lot of ground to cover fast
> .


See, to me an "up-side" would be that the trainer knew other ways than an ear-pinch (or is it the old ecollar again?) to teach a retrieve and zapping away at a dog for bumping the dumbbell. I'm not sure giving a student permission to not abuse their dog while you do this sort of thing to other dogs in an obedience class is all that laudable. You can tell a great deal about a trainer by the kind of answers they choose. If the answers they choose (a painful and intimidating quick fix) are not answers you are willing to accept, then the best that happens is that you are left out there to figure it out on your own. Because they are going to give you the answers that they would choose.

As to 6 weeks to being ready to earn a 195 in the AKC ring? Really? In all honesty, I've trained a lot of dogs to a CDX (mine and others) While I've done a couple of quickie CDs in 6 weeks, I've never known anyone who was ring ready with a 195 with only 6 weeks of open work. Some of my students have been close, but then in my class they are doing scent articles and directed jumping before they get their CDs


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

sassafras said:


> My reasons for leaving wouldn't have anything to do with whether or not it works. It may work great, but it's not for me and I simply don't want to be around it. And if I had a dog reactive to it to the point that it provoked an attack, I wouldn't want her to be around it either. *shrug*


One thing I would be curious to know is if this reactive dog has been with these trainers from the beginning. To me, the snarkiness towards other dogs should be the thing addressed BEFORE obedience skills. In Open the dogs are required to do a 3 minute sit and a 5 minute down in a line up of dogs, with the handlers out of the ring and completely out of sight. Allowing a dog reactive dog whose issues have not been addressed to participate in this exercise is not fair for the reactive dog, and it can result in physical or emotional damage for any dog who is its target. It's even been known to result in injury to judge or ring steward who has tried to get such a dog off of another.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> One thing I would be curious to know is if this reactive dog has been with these trainers from the beginning. To me, the snarkiness towards other dogs should be the thing addressed BEFORE obedience skills. In Open the dogs are required to do a 3 minute sit and a 5 minute down in a line up of dogs, with the handlers out of the ring and completely out of sight. Allowing a dog reactive dog whose issues have not been addressed to participate in this exercise is not fair for the reactive dog, and it can result in physical or emotional damage for any dog who is its target. It's even been known to result in injury to judge or ring steward who has tried to get such a dog off of another.


Yes indeed, that would be covered in my a*s-backwards, there were a multitude of mistakes. I actually have never seen so many carts placed before 1 horse.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

The 195 was in my first grad novice run, which is a dummied down open for those who don't know. And it was only once. Who knows what the next run will be. I want to do a few runs of the 3 minute out-of-sight down/stays before going in for open. Who knows, the wheels could all fall off, as open is signigicantly different (and harder) than grad novice.

The e-collar dog is really struggling. However, he is reactive/aggressive with motion, so the sit/downs are easier for him by far. I would have liked to have known him from the beginning too. It's easy to see how he is essentially imploding. The most telling place is the agility start line. She (the owner) does dual training sessions as well. This dog is absolutely incapable of a start-line stay. Simply can't do it. And the harder the handle corrects, the worse the dog fails. And the handler just keeps adding punishment despite the fact that it isn't working at all. Mine sit dead still until I want them to move. I go back and reward start-lines every 8th or 9th run. No drama. And none of this ever leads her to seek input from me. She just keeps failing in the same way again and again. Now, she is trying for a stand/stay since the dog won't do a sit or a down on the start line. She thinks that will solve it. Yeah. Whatever.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> One thing I would be curious to know is if this reactive dog has been with these trainers from the beginning. To me, the snarkiness towards other dogs should be the thing addressed BEFORE obedience skills. In Open the dogs are required to do a 3 minute sit and a 5 minute down in a line up of dogs, with the handlers out of the ring and completely out of sight. Allowing a dog reactive dog whose issues have not been addressed to participate in this exercise is not fair for the reactive dog, and it can result in physical or emotional damage for any dog who is its target. It's even been known to result in injury to judge or ring steward who has tried to get such a dog off of another.


This is the key. A dog who lunges at other dogs and who vocalizes excessively is not ready for that level of training. Those are not things that should be attempted solved in a group class. Even the bumping the DB sounds a little "not ready for primetime". It's true that dogs sometimes get weird things into their heads, but a dog at that level should be well past playing with his tools.

Take him back to whatever level he performs well at, and bring him along from there.


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> ... This dog is absolutely incapable of a start-line stay. Simply can't do it. *And the harder the handle corrects, the worse the dog fails.* And the handler just keeps adding punishment despite the fact that it isn't working at all. Mine sit dead still until I want them to move. I go back and reward start-lines every 8th or 9th run. No drama. And none of this ever leads her to seek input from me. She just keeps failing in the same way again and again. Now, she is trying for a stand/stay since the dog won't do a sit or a down on the start line. She thinks that will solve it. Yeah. Whatever.


My heart bleeds for this dog. I would suggest to get out of there ASAp, it doesn't do you any good nor your dog. If only somebody would have a quiet word aka 'there is a better way to train' in that dog owners ears ... So sad ...


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

I wasn't even allowed to register for rally at my new facility until my dog's reactivity issues were under control, and even then our first class was on "probationary" terms where if the trainer wasn't comfortable with Brody's behavior, we would be asked to continue working out our issues before returning. I can understand this because a class should be an environment where all dogs can succeed and it's not helping the reactive dog or the other dogs in the class when someone is constantly being snarky and disruptive. The facility would lose money because they did not ask for payment until after our "probationary" class, and they don't train for aggression or reactivity there, so it's not like they could apply the money to another class if Brody was a brat.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> The e-collar dog is really struggling. However, he is reactive/aggressive with motion, so the sit/downs are easier for him by far.


Yes, easier for him in a single class atmosphere perhaps. But what about in an actual trial setting ? All it takes is one other dog doing a blistering recall in an adjacent ring, concurrent with his stay excercise, and it could be big trouble.

If this dog already has it's CD, I'd say it's by the grace of a higher power.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Personally, I'd be calling every animal-abuse agency possible. Likely nothing would happen (abuse is cheerfully indulged in and overlooked in hunt dog training, IME), but I'd sure be making somebody's life as miserable as they're making that dog's.

That poor dog is going to end up being murdered because of this abuse. Anybody watching that kind of thing and not making some things VERY clear to his owner is just as guilty.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I think it would be pretty hard to sell terrible training as abuse. The statutes in my state don't allow for that. The fact that the dog keeps working his guts out stupifies me. And means that this crap isn't enough to shut him down. It would mine, for sure. But they haven't been hardened to repeated ineffectual punishment.

As far as me being just as guilty as the owner, I don't agree. I have offered suggestions and demonstrated another way and now I will vote with my feet. She knows where I stand, but in the end, it's still her dog and the laws of the land still allow her property rights as long as she is feeding and sheltering her dog. Whether that is right or wrong is a fair question, but as it stands, it's her dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Terrible training wouldn't qualify as abuse, but making a dog scream probably would.

Eh, I'm just telling you what I would do. "All that is needed for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing".


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think it would be pretty hard to sell terrible training as abuse. The statutes in my state don't allow for that. The fact that the dog keeps working his guts out stupifies me. And means that this crap isn't enough to shut him down. It would mine, for sure. But they haven't been hardened to repeated ineffectual punishment.
> 
> As far as me being just as guilty as the owner, I don't agree. I have offered suggestions and demonstrated another way and now I will vote with my feet. She knows where I stand, but in the end, it's still her dog and the laws of the land still allow her property rights as long as she is feeding and sheltering her dog. Whether that is right or wrong is a fair question, but as it stands, it's her dog.


I think there are times when terrible training is abuse. I could make a pretty good argument for the shock collar for bumping a dumbbell being abuse. I could make a pretty good argument for scruffing a dog until it screams to get a straight front abuse. Whether you could make a legal case for it or not might be another issue. While I personally enjoy dog sports, I think things like that are less justifiable in an attempt to get a better score than in a misguided effort to address real life situations to make the dog safer. While violence and force aren't necessary for either, I think it is particularly sad when people grab at quick fixes which damage their dog for sports reasons. I say this as someone who as been training dogs a long time, and seen a lot. And used some methods (like a forced retrieve) that make me sick now. I should have said "no." but the people who taught me taught it as the only option, as it was the only option they knew. They still do. Just as your instructors seem to be clueless that there are more humane, informative and effective methods than they are using. 

As to shutting this dog down - dogs, like people react differently to situations. Some people will try to retreat from unpleasantness. Some will confront it, or over-react. It's a matter of personality. Kathy Cascade (a TTouch practitioner) talks about how dogs cope with the four Fs - Fight, flight, freeze, fool around. Fight and flight we know. Shutting down is a form of freezing. Fooling around looks happy or playful (like pouncing on a dumbbell) but is actually polite negotiation ("see how cute and harmless I am? Please do not hurt me") I suspect that largely this dog is largely handling the stress by redirecting to other sources (like dogs in class). But that doesn't mean he is less harmed by the abuse than a dog who quits working.

I don't think you are as guilty as the trainers or the owners, but I do think that remaining a part of the class after seeing what you've seen indicates that you are at least okay with what goes on here. So I am happy to hear that you are voting with your feet. Sooner better than later.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

To PawsK9-

I think we are in complete agreement. I dropped out of obedience when 3 trainers in a row told me that I had to do the forced retrieve. I simply wouldn't do it and when I asked for another option, they said there wasn't one. I went home and built dogs that would retrieve through anything. When I got to this class, my dogs were retrieving junkies.  No need to correct a dog that is performing. This is the only trainer that didn't ask to see my ear pinch. It's nice to be moving past a CD.

Weird thing: I really can't tell you how I got these terriers to take, hold, carry, and retrieve a dumb bell. They weren't natural retrievers. It's like they just did it once they understood what I was after. Now, thest highest reward on the planet is throwing Kong Balls. They will literally not eat cheese or steak if the kong balls are out. I was trying to toggle food and toys, and if the kong balls are involved, they refuse all food. So I can't use them in most training situations. They will give them to me easily, but their jaws bounce and tongues curl and eyes go black. It's like they are having seizures.

For me, why force it if you can build it.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think it would be pretty hard to sell terrible training as abuse. The statutes in my state don't allow for that. The fact that the dog keeps working his guts out stupifies me. And means that this crap isn't enough to shut him down. It would mine, for sure. But they haven't been hardened to repeated ineffectual punishment.
> 
> As far as me being just as guilty as the owner, I don't agree. I have offered suggestions and demonstrated another way and now I will vote with my feet. She knows where I stand, but in the end, it's still her dog and the laws of the land still allow her property rights as long as she is feeding and sheltering her dog. Whether that is right or wrong is a fair question, but as it stands, it's her dog.


If you were a head football coach at a large university, you'd have been fired already.................


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

DustyCrockett said:


> If you were a head football coach at a large university, you'd have been fired already.................


Too soon? 






I don't think so, well played, my friend!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I actually am a mandated reporter. If I knew that a child was being raped, by law, I would have to report it. It would be a legal obligation.

Who do you suggest I report a mean dog owner to? One who sleeps with her dog and shows him, albeit unsuccessfully, several times a month?

Yeah, exactly the same thing.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

trainingjunkie said:


> Who do you suggest I report a mean dog owner to? One who sleeps with her dog and shows him, albeit unsuccessfully, several times a month?


One who scruffs him til he's screaming and electrocutes the heck out of him several times a month seems somewhat beyond "mean". I assume you'd report it to whoever you report animal abuse to in your area (Humane Society? SPCA?). But if you don't think so, do what you're comfortable with. But, what you have decribed is abuse, not "being mean".


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

While shock collars are still legally sold at most supply stores, I would argue that the law allows for them. And it makes me sick and sad, but in my state, it's legal.

And it was the trainer shocking the dog, not the owner. The owner scruffed it. 

It's ugly. But it's legal. And I can call away. But it's legal.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, but making someone's life annoying is also legal (within reason). I'm a big believer in social pressure. I'd be making it very clear that I consider it abuse and what I thought of that person and the trainer. If the owner allowed the trainer to do it, that's the same as doing it herself.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm glad you're dropping that class ... but hope you can keep us updated on what happens to the poor dog ...



trainingjunkie said:


> To PawsK9-
> 
> I think we are in complete agreement. I dropped out of obedience when 3 trainers in a row told me that I had to do the forced retrieve. I simply wouldn't do it and when I asked for another option, they said there wasn't one. I went home and built dogs that would retrieve through anything. When I got to this class, my dogs were retrieving junkies. No need to correct a dog that is performing. This is the only trainer that didn't ask to see my ear pinch. It's nice to be moving past a CD.


I too have dropped out of training classes. First a Shutzhund trainer who definitely had good results and came 3rd in world competition ... BUT ... his methods weren't for me. When I saw him put an e-collar around his dog's tummy and shock her so she'd not lay down ... and later the same time lift my dog in a prong collar I decided it wasn't for me. 
The next was a very well known and successful AKC trainer who also lifted my dog in the prong collar ... both times because I didn't yank hard enough ...

My dog doesn't wear a prong any more ... and I certainly wouldn't use it for "competitive training reasons" (on any dog, ever again). If I can't control my dog because of weight and strength of a young dog I think it might work as a back-up ... but IMHO it doesn't belong as a training tool. 

Miss Mandy is actually my first dog. I've never had a dog before and the only reason we're competing is that I have a dog that needs a job ... and I happened to see someone train competitive OB where I used to take classes and go home and try to do it myself ... it was a blast. Both Mandy and I had so much fun "playing" with the OB stuff and that's why I compete ... we're having fun. She makes me laugh out loud. I often hear that she has such an awesome attitude in the ring and that's what's most important to me.


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## backerbabe (Mar 6, 2011)

I couldn't endure a class situation like you've described, nor would I want to employ training methods that cause the dogs to respond in that manner. I'm sure you could find a trainer/facility that uses positive reinforcement to get the job done. The relationship & trust you build with your dogs is why we train right? I personally am suspicious of any training technique that doesn't build on those qualities.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

hast said:


> I'm glad you're dropping that class ... but hope you can keep us updated on what happens to the poor dog ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I finally have a dog that loves OB and Rally, so I'm excited to start to compete. If he didn't love it, (my former dogs didn't), I wouldn't do it. He's a neutered mixed breed so I don't "need" the titles, per say, but he comes to life in the ring. It's where he shines


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Sounds totally inappropriate use of the ecollar. If one is to be used some foundation training is needed at the very least so the dog understands what the correction means. Also if the dog is vocalizing its set too high regardless


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

jiml said:


> Sounds totally inappropriate use of the ecollar. If one is to be used some foundation training is needed at the very least so the dog understands what the correction means. Also if the dog is vocalizing its set too high regardless


This trainer made many mistakes.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I agree with several others who said walk away from the class. By staying, you risk the safety of your dog, IMO. I continue to see reactive dogs in group classes (almost always sports, IME), and I have no tolerance for such a thing. Owners of reactive dogs should work on that reactivity until their dog is safe to have in a group class environment. Not to do so is completely irresponsible, and an instructor who allows such behavior to go on is just begging for an incident to occur under their watch. Everyone should be managing their dogs (friendly or not), but the responsibility to avoid situations should not fall on the shoulders of everyone else. I've witnessed three separate incidents (one in an agility class, two at agility trials) in which unleashed dogs attacked other leashed dogs. There's simply no need for this.

It boggles my mind what people will do in the name of earning titles, points, whatever. These are DOG SPORTS, and they're supposed to be FUN. No one is forcing you to compete or take classes. Your dog's life isn't dependent on this. If your dog is too reactive to attend class without endangering other dogs, then pull them out! If your dog would rather fool around than do what you ask, walk away, don't get out the E collar! *Sheesh!*

As much as I enjoy the sports that I play with my dog, my enjoyment comes from hers. If she wasn't enjoying herself, we'd quit.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

We skipped class tonight. 

I showed last weekend and my dog did really well. In two days with two runs a day, he qualified 4 times, won two classes, and tied for second but lost the run-off in a third. He was great. And I didn't have to beat on him at all to get him there. 

I agree that dog sports are not reason enough to sacrifice the well-being of a dog or a relationship. People kept laughing at my mutt and talking about how silly and happy he was. He really is a ham. Getting freaked out or attacked in training would suck royally.

Heavy positive reinforcement isn't popular in my region in the obedience ring. I feel like I have to apologize for how I handle. I do use correction, so I am not a total outcast, but I still feel like an outsider. I have trained with some of the best people competing in my area. They use some positive, but their focus is on always maintaining correct behavior so the dog never practices mistakes. It's a whole lot about management and much less about choice. There is NO arguing about their results: It works. A whole slew of them are heading to the AKC Invitational next week. Watching them work is a thing of wonder. There's a balance to be struck somewhere in there. I haven't found it yet. I am still very heavy on the positive and it will keep me from being in the line-up in open and utility. In novice and grad novice, my dog titled in 3 runs each with 5 first place finishs. And he won a huge rally excellent B class this weekend with a 100. So he doesn't stink. But there's a huge difference between us and the teams I have trained with that are killing the competition. I think my dog is good enough. However, I may not be. My methods lack the consistency of the teams I admire. And none of these people would do any of the crap that happened in the class I referenced in this thread. I just like to get away from these people from time to time to lower the stress. I feel bad when I am around them because they are so busy being critical of my handling. I love my goofy dog. I love that from time to time he screams when we do too many finishes or doodles because he gets too excited. 

I know I am not as good as they are. I truly KNOW it, but I am not ready to change to the more "flattened" but higher scoring approach. 

And it's still my dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Competition sometimes is not for the faint of heart.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Competition is rarely for the feint of heart.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I agree with several others who said walk away from the class. By staying, you risk the safety of your dog, IMO. I continue to see reactive dogs in group classes (almost always sports, IME), and I have no tolerance for such a thing. Owners of reactive dogs should work on that reactivity until their dog is safe to have in a group class environment. Not to do so is completely irresponsible, and an instructor who allows such behavior to go on is just begging for an incident to occur under their watch. Everyone should be managing their dogs (friendly or not), but the responsibility to avoid situations should not fall on the shoulders of everyone else. I've witnessed three separate incidents (one in an agility class, two at agility trials) in which unleashed dogs attacked other leashed dogs. There's simply no need for this.
> 
> It boggles my mind what people will do in the name of earning titles, points, whatever. These are DOG SPORTS, and they're supposed to be FUN. No one is forcing you to compete or take classes. Your dog's life isn't dependent on this. If your dog is too reactive to attend class without endangering other dogs, then pull them out! If your dog would rather fool around than do what you ask, walk away, don't get out the E collar! *Sheesh!*
> 
> As much as I enjoy the sports that I play with my dog, my enjoyment comes from hers. If she wasn't enjoying herself, we'd quit.


I agree wholeheartedly with this entire post. The facility I train at has a two strike policy.. one reactive episode.. okay, maybe your dog was having an off day. If it happens again, you will be asked to leave, refunded the unused portion of your fee, and given a list of trainers/behaviorists qualified to work with reactivity. Safety is the #1 priority. In order to attend class with a reactive dog, I had to have a meeting with the trainer to explain the situation, she contacted the trainer we were working with to see if she felt we were ready for a group sports class, and finally she allowed us to drop in on a class so she could evaluate Brody in person. She does not allow dogs to interact in class as a rule, which I think is instrumental for preventing problems. We're there to train and work, not to socialize. 

I also agree that if Brody didn't enjoy the class, we wouldn't attend. He's the kind of dog that completely shuts down, refuses to work, and even refuses food if someone raises their voice around him, let alone at him. I knew we were in the right place when he was able to get through an entire class without showing any signs of stress.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well since I said stay with class, I don't care about the dog learning anything in fact OP can leave dog at home if possible. Make an excuse for being there without dog. My opinion (and you know about opinions and butts, everybody's got one) is that OP can see in real life mistakes made or not made and the variables in between. We can talk about good and/or bad for a dog but nothing replaces watching it. Remember I am old school aversive trainer and have watched things that immediately jumped up and smacked me in the head "with a don't ever do this" to a dog. Now being a Pro may have warped me a tad as to what and how I learned. I'm just sayin'..


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> <snip>
> I think my dog is good enough. However, I may not be. My methods lack the consistency of the teams I admire. And none of these people would do any of the crap that happened in the class I referenced in this thread. I just like to get away from these people from time to time to lower the stress. I feel bad when I am around them because they are so busy being critical of my handling. I love my goofy dog. I love that from time to time he screams when we do too many finishes or doodles because he gets too excited.
> 
> I know I am not as good as they are. I truly KNOW it, but I am not ready to change to the more "flattened" but higher scoring approach.
> ...


First of all ... do not compare yourself with others. If they are more advanced than you, try to see it as you're striving to reach that level rather than feel bad you're not there yet. Ask their advice, but don't think you have to follow it, YOU have to be comfortable with how you teach your dog. 

I have a similar training situation. I train with a couple who are pro trainers/judges with young dogs and another couple dogs/handlers that are going to the invitational. I truly admire one team going to the invitational ... but she doesn't have my dog, we cannot do things exactly the same ... My dog is different, I am different, we, my dog and I, have to do things differently. 

I want to train positive ... whereas the pros use mainly corrections. I've heard comments that we have to get the treats out of the practice ring ... but they don't think they have to get their aversive methods out. It's just a mindset and I'm keeping my treats as long as others keep their corrections. 
If my dog drops her dumbbell or scent article she picks it up again and expect me to praise her ... if their dogs drop it they jump to the side afraid of an ear pinch. It truly is a mindset from both in the team.

My biggest problem is my timing. It's decent, sometimes even really good ... but I'm too new to always nail it. I know this and work on it, I found that if I get my clicker the others at training almost fall over in shock ... but since I'm also getting the timing better my dog works better with it. I have come to the decision that I will not compromise my relationship with my dog. I will look at what everyone else does ... and learn from it. From some I'll learn what to do and when to do it, from others I'll learn what not to do, but I'll learn from them all. 

You and I will get there. It may take longer, our dogs may not be as sharp, but we'll get there. I know my dog could be as crisp and sharp as the one team going to the invitational, but I'm not showing nearly as much, I've not been at it for as long ... we'll get there whether we'll get to the invitational or not. 

I'm going to a show next weekend hoping to get my third UD leg. So far we've gotten one day out of two at each show, so I'm hopeful. If we don't get it I'll work on it some more, and we'll get it eventually. That's not so important, how my dog feels about obedience is. We started this road because we had so much fun and were building such an awesome relationship ... that is what it's all about. We are a team.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> I feel bad when I am around them because they are so busy being critical of my handling.


You'd think they would be too busy handling their own dogs, huh?

Most people like (need would probably not be too strong a word actually) to be validated. Whether it's training dogs, raising children, or even how they fold the laundry, people like it when other people do things the same way they do because it makes them feel "right" and capable. It doesn't matter if there are ten of them and one of you, you training your dog differently than they train their dogs is probably making them feel like they have been judged and found wanting. It's just human nature. And so they're going to judge and find YOU wanting right back. Again, human nature. Most people just can't keep their mouths shut in a situation like that and there's very little personal about it. It has nothing to do with how good you are or who you are, it just is what it is.

You really just have to grow a thicker skin, and I know that's easier said than done. You worry about you. One great thing that a wise person once said to me is that in the face of this type of hypercritical, unwarranted, and unsolicited advice, just say "Huh!" in your most "wow, that was FASCINATING" voice and just walk away without another word. You've acknowledged them and dismissed them without inviting them to an argument. Eventually they'll get bored of trying to either recruit you or get a rise out of you and you can go on your way.

Good luck. This stuff should be fun.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> W
> Heavy positive reinforcement isn't popular in my region in the obedience ring. I feel like I have to apologize for how I handle. I do use correction, so I am not a total outcast, but I still feel like an outsider. I have trained with some of the best people competing in my area. They use some positive, but their focus is on always maintaining correct behavior so the dog never practices mistakes. It's a whole lot about management and much less about choice. There is NO arguing about their results: It works. A whole slew of them are heading to the AKC Invitational next week. Watching them work is a thing of wonder. There's a balance to be struck somewhere in there. I haven't found it yet. I am still very heavy on the positive and it will keep me from being in the line-up in open and utility. In novice and grad novice, my dog titled in 3 runs each with 5 first place finishs. And he won a huge rally excellent B class this weekend with a 100. So he doesn't stink. But there's a huge difference between us and the teams I have trained with that are killing the competition. I think my dog is good enough. However, I may not be. My methods lack the consistency of the teams I admire. And none of these people would do any of the crap that happened in the class I referenced in this thread. I just like to get away from these people from time to time to lower the stress. I feel bad when I am around them because they are so busy being critical of my handling. I love my goofy dog. I love that from time to time he screams when we do too many finishes or doodles because he gets too excited.
> 
> I know I am not as good as they are. I truly KNOW it, but I am not ready to change to the more "flattened" but higher scoring approach.
> ...


Heavy positive reinforcement isn't very popular in my area as well, however I did find a facility that trains correction-free, and I was happy with the trainer's qualifications and titles, and the "brags" page for their students. True.. the majority of their dogs are not OTCH dogs, however many dogs have earned titles. I do not frown upon people who choose to use correction in training as long as it's not excessive or inappropriately applied, however it's just not how I choose to train and I needed a facility that respected and coincided with my philosophies. I would say our primary focus is teaching dogs and handlers the exercises and behaviors expected in the ring. Our secondary focus is maintaining correct behavior so the dog doesn't rehearse mistakes. Once again, there is a lot of management, however our dogs have the choice on whether to perform or not. They always choose to perform. We make it very worth their while to perform. 

I don't think being heavy on the positive is what keeps you from the line-up. We have dogs placing from our facility that are strictly using the positive. Lack of consistency (as you admitted) is probably more to blame than the methods you are implying. The whole idea of classes is to practice, practice, practice and develop that consistency. It's hard to improve on the faults of the methods you implement if your class isn't subscribing to the same methods. A big benefit of attending class is that I have someone who can recognize and call out when my timing is off, my footwork is sloppy, I'm not using the right reinforcement schedule, I'm not consistent rewarding a new behavior, etc. 

Classes should be stress-free for you and your dog. If I felt anxious or stressed before going to class, or if my dog would shut down and not accept rewards or focus on me, I would no longer attend that class and/or I would seek out a different sport or facility. We both have to love what we're doing in order to be a team and work well together. If they are not giving as much praise of your handling as they are critique, they are not being effective. It's learned helplessness.. it only makes you feel inadequate as a handler and doesn't give you much confidence, which in turn will effect your performance. You are being trained just as much as your dog is being trained. 

It's great that you appreciate your goof-ball of a dog. My dog is just as goofy, and at one point in Rally last night, he decided that he had enough of practicing rear-end awareness and he was going to wiggle and lean up against our trainer, who was using him as a demo dog. She simply laughed it off, had him heel a few steps, then call to front, then took out a tug and let him get that insane excess energy expended before going back to working on pivots. He was incredibly focused after he got his moment of "OMG A NEW PERSON IS PAYING ATTENTION TO ME! LET'S PLAY!" out of his system. No one should make you feel bad when you are doing a sport. That goes for you and your dog. If my trainer couldn't appreciate my dog's quirks, I don't think I would stay with her even though she gets great results. There is another facility in my area that has a greater number of more advanced titles on their students, but their methods are not what I would use with my dog and even though I feel they are acceptable methods, I chose this facility because I believe Brody and I will be more successful in this environment. You need to be somewhere that sets you up for success and based on what you're saying, I don't know if this is the right place for you.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> We skipped class tonight.
> 
> Heavy positive reinforcement isn't popular in my region in the obedience ring. I feel like I have to apologize for how I handle. I do use correction, so I am not a total outcast, but I still feel like an outsider. I have trained with some of the best people competing in my area. They use some positive, but their focus is on always maintaining correct behavior so the dog never practices mistakes. It's a whole lot about management and much less about choice. There is NO arguing about their results: It works. A whole slew of them are heading to the AKC Invitational next week. Watching them work is a thing of wonder. There's a balance to be struck somewhere in there. I haven't found it yet. I am still very heavy on the positive and it will keep me from being in the line-up in open and utility. In novice and grad novice, my dog titled in 3 runs each with 5 first place finishs. And he won a huge rally excellent B class this weekend with a 100. So he doesn't stink. But there's a huge difference between us and the teams I have trained with that are killing the competition. I think my dog is good enough. However, I may not be. My methods lack the consistency of the teams I admire. And none of these people would do any of the crap that happened in the class I referenced in this thread. I just like to get away from these people from time to time to lower the stress. I feel bad when I am around them because they are so busy being critical of my handling. I love my goofy dog. I love that from time to time he screams when we do too many finishes or doodles because he gets too excited.
> 
> ...


The fact is, there are very few (if any) places in this country where clicker trainers dominate competitive obedience. The difference between their skills and yours is less about training method than it is about experience and handling ability. They are right to be critical of handling. That's what makes the difference much of the time and if you want to do well (especially at the upper levels) it's worth paying attention to. What I DON'T get is that you would "like to get away" from the pressure of being around good teams who are successful and effective and at least thoughtful in their use of methods just so you can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond with a bunch of people who use and allow abuse in a most unmindful way and obviously have no idea how to train a competition dog. Where does that get you? Really?


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> The fact is, there are very few (if any) places in this country where clicker trainers dominate competitive obedience. The difference between their skills and yours is less about training method than it is about experience and handling ability. They are right to be critical of handling. That's what makes the difference much of the time and if you want to do well (especially at the upper levels) it's worth paying attention to. What I DON'T get is that you would "like to get away" from the pressure of being around good teams who are successful and effective and at least thoughtful in their use of methods just so you can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond with a bunch of people who use and allow abuse in a most unmindful way and obviously have no idea how to train a competition dog. Where does that get you? Really?


Wait.. I'm a little confused. I thought the OP was talking about the same class, that the person abusing the dog was in the same class as the successful teams of dogs and handlers, it's just that the successful teams weren't using those methods, but apparently allowed them to continue. 

I find that I do best with reasonable critique but also enough encouragement and praise for what I'm doing RIGHT to make me continue to do what I'm doing right and improve on what I'm being critiqued for. I've been in classes where it's all criticism of the handlers and no acknowledgement of what's being done correctly. I don't thrive in that environment and I don't see how it is productive at all.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

trainingjunkie said:


> Competition is rarely for the feint of heart.


It's a freakin GAME. I don't know how people can justify hurting their dogs just to be the best at a game. Same people who smack their kids around if they mess up at soccer, I guess.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Lindbert said:


> Wait.. I'm a little confused. I thought the OP was talking about the same class, that the person abusing the dog was in the same class as the successful teams of dogs and handlers, it's just that the successful teams weren't using those methods, but apparently allowed them to continue.
> 
> I find that I do best with reasonable critique but also enough encouragement and praise for what I'm doing RIGHT to make me continue to do what I'm doing right and improve on what I'm being critiqued for. I've been in classes where it's all criticism of the handlers and no acknowledgement of what's being done correctly. I don't thrive in that environment and I don't see how it is productive at all.


Don't think so . . . she wrote "And none of these people would do any of the crap that happened in the class I referenced in this thread. I just like to get away from these people from time to time to lower the stress. I feel bad when I am around them because they are so busy being critical of my handling." And in the beginning she wrote that she was training at a new facility. I've been known to "TAG" students for good footwork, etc. I want to know their goals. If the goal is a 200, I'm going to point out handling errors and sloppy footwork, because cleaning that up is what is going to get them where they want to go. And that's what I'm being paid for.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> We skipped class tonight.
> Watching them work is a thing of wonder. There's a balance to be struck somewhere in there. I haven't found it yet. I am still very heavy on the positive and it will keep me from being in the line-up in open and utility. In novice and grad novice, my dog titled in 3 runs each with 5 first place finishs. And he won a huge rally excellent B class this weekend with a 100. So he doesn't stink. But there's a huge difference between us and the teams I have trained with that are killing the competition. I think my dog is good enough. However, I may not be. My methods lack the consistency of the teams I admire. And none of these people would do any of the crap that happened in the class I referenced in this thread. I just like to get away from these people from time to time to lower the stress. I feel bad when I am around them because they are so busy being critical of my handling. I love my goofy dog. I love that from time to time he screams when we do too many finishes or doodles because he gets too excited.


I know where you're coming from here. The agility class that meets directly before mine is way more advanced than mine - it's full of people who've been in elite forever, and often attend nationals. Because we're the most advanced team in the lower class, sometimes I'm allowed to join the more advanced class, if there's a space. But the difference is that I love joining the more advanced class - sure they're better than me, but I love their support. They always watch and they usually cheer after a good run. I learn SO much more when I get to attend the more advanced class, both from watching the more advanced handlers, and from getting their advice. Will I ever be as good as they will? Not with this dog. I'm a newbie handler, so it will take me a few more dogs to get to their level. Plus Kit is a total goof (which I love), so yeah, we probably won't get that far. But so what? If I can learn from them, then great.

The one place I occasionally feel judged is outside the ring. Kit still loves to greet people by jumping on them, which some people don't like (and I generally manage around the people who dislike it). She's pretty bouncy and a few people don't like that. I guess a few folks probably view me as the newbie handler who has no clue how to train her dog (at least until they see us in the ring). Most of them get it, though, and realize that no amount of training is going to make Kit well behaved, nor is that something I want. I'm guessing there's more tolerance for that view in agility than in obedience.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Just to clarify, I have a bizarre work schedule and I train at several different places. I train under different trainers depending on the night of the week too. And I have a private coach who is exclusively positive reinforcement. She's heading to nationals right now too. This is good for my schedule, but not good for consistency.

I have to drive a considerable distance any time I go to train. I like it when I can piggy-back classes or work two dogs in one class. The facility that's too harsh and too questionable for my taste allows me to piggy back two classes and work both dogs in each class, so I get tons of mat time. I can also bring my pup and work her between classes and let her watch all of the things that happen in class. And I really like the owners. They are kind and generous people. 

My goals are to go through all three levels of rally, obedience, and agility (standard and jumpers) in the AKC with my two older dogs. I don't need a 200, but I do want to be in the 190s. One dog is easy and loves the ring. The other is fearful and may never be able to get there. I enjoy working them both about equally. I love spending the time with them. I love training. I love their joy.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think my dog is good enough. However, I may not be. My methods lack the consistency of the teams I admire.




Shouldn't admiration be reserved, primarily, for teams whose ideals closely mirror our own ?

Not trying to nitpick. Just wondering if this is where any 'conflict' or self-doubt might stem from, is all.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Shouldn't admiration be reserved, primarily, for teams whose ideals closely mirror our own ?
> 
> Not trying to nitpick. Just wondering if this is where any 'conflict' or self-doubt might stem from, is all.


That's food for thought. I hadn't ever really considered it. What I probably most admire about the more corrective dog training pairs is their consistency. They are predictable and steady. Their heeling is calm and clean. There's never a feeling that everything might jump the rails at any moment. A lot of time, I feel like my dog might bubble over. 

Like others have pointed out, this may not be because of my method. It might be because I haven't put in the hours. It might be that my timing isn't as clean as it needs to be. The obedience teams that are so, so good are not out competing in the agility ring. However, they do hunt and that has to eat up and divide their training time.

Lots of food for thought in this thread.

Also, a big thank you to hast for posting. Lots of fun, interesting, and encouraging points to ponder. And to sassafrass. I may not have the jewels for "Wow! That was fascinating!!!" but I ought to be able to tailor a response of my own that I keep on hand for these types of occasions!

All of us get pretty passionate about dogs and training. It's too bad that it's so much easier to dig in and defend a method than it is to be open. It's also too bad that almost any talk of method becomes personal rather than just conversational. It makes sharing ideas and concerns so much harder than it needs to be. "Reactivity in Dog Training" could be written about either end of the leash!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> And I really like the owners. They are kind and generous people.
> 
> .


I'm sorry. I understand that there are many styles and methods of training. I can't imagine "really liking" as a trainer someone who has done and allowed what you describe at the beginning of the thread. That is someone who is detrimental to dogs.


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