# Dog Killed Cat -- HELP



## jewels8287 (Oct 12, 2008)

I'm in desperate need for some answers & advice here.

I have 3 dogs. All Males. Boxer, 2. Golden Retriever, 1. Mixed Breed, 5 months. 

I've had all three since they we're pups. 
They have always lived in harmony just fine with my cats.

Today we heard a scream from our cat, and our dogs barking and growling. We look outside, and they are killing our cat.

Almost like a game.


Why are they just now doing this? I have three small children (3,2,and 1) do I need to worry about them becoming agressive with my kids???


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

Very sorry to hear that!

My grandmother had a similar thing happen. She had two rottie mixes, and they got on fine with the cats indoors, but one of the indoor cats snuck out and they caught it in the yard and killed it. They never killed another thing their whole lives, and continued to get on fine with the cats indoors. 

One of your dogs probably got the idea to chase the cat and the other two joined in and it got out of control. What you can do about it to prevent it happening again is the question. At 2, 1 and 5mths you essentially have three puppies. That's got to be a handful. 

Do you do much training with them?

Do you know what the mixed breed is a mix of?

Are the dogs fixed?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I think first thing would be keep them away from your other cats until this issue can be addressed.

Second and this is just common sense...Always be with your kids when the dogs are around..even if they hadn't killed your cat. 

Third I think a professional assessment is called for. Find a behaviorist or well recommended trainer. Someone who can assess your dogs on a eye level basis and determine what _exactly_ the situation is.

Good Luck and so sorry to hear about your purrbaby..


ETA:

Another thing to consider in the meantime would be to find some way to keep them occupied and definatly get some extra training into them. Look around the training forum. there is soo much good info here. From links for locating behaviorists to a vast array of good training tips...and don't be afraid to get specific and ask detailed questions of both behaviorist and us.


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## WhySoSerious? (Oct 9, 2008)

So sorry to hear about this jewels  Boxers and golden's are both in my top 10 of favorite breeds.

I agree with the posts above on how to deal with this and stay on the safe side because it is really hard to tell what happened in this situation.

Was all 3 involved? I wonder why from time to time we hear about one dog going on the attack and the others being so quick to join in? Does anyone think it might be pack hunting instincts?

Either way it is sad because normally dogs do so well living with other dogs.

Please keep us updated.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

Sorry for your loss.

Were the dogs neutered? Having 3 unneutered males around is asking for trouble, even with children. 

My dogs like to chase my cats, but once they catch up to them, they just walk away. It's a game, but the dogs know their limits. However, in your case, the dogs most likely didn't know their limits and thought they were just playing. A dog that size can kill a cat quickly, whether it's playing or not. One probably started chasing and the others followed.


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

I think it is a pack thing, one dog goes after a cat, maybe just chasing it for fun, and the other dogs join in and things get out of hand in the excitement. I also think Zim is right on, that it will probably require professional help to sort out and figure out how to keep the cats safe in the future.


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## WhySoSerious? (Oct 9, 2008)

I agree with zim too and hope jewels can get this sorted out.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

I have three... i have to ensure my cat is safe in a gated area the dogs can't access...or in a room. i KNOW for a fact that all three of them together would kill the cat in a second.

One on one...i can verbally control mac and gabi from the cat. Roe is another challenge. 

do not let your kids with the dogs unattended...like zim said...even if they hadn't injured the cat. This would be necessary given any dog, any circumstance. i don't think this event necessarily means they would attack your kids...but i think careful supervision is a MUST. 

What I would watch out for is high pitched screaming (kids excited playing), running and screaming..and the dogs chasing. unsupervised...that type of thing could cause a potential problem. I would definitely talk to a behaviorist to give you some pointers...as we are not there and cannot really provide appropriate advise not seeing your dogs in person. and, most of us aren't qualified behaviorists...

anyway, i think it's worth talking with a trainer/behaviorist to assess your individual circumstance...I think this was probably a case of pack mentality kicking in when one of the dogs started to chase the cat. It can easily get carried away. good luck


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

So sorry to hear about the loss of your cat.  That has to be rough. 

My dogs have killed a cat before (a feral adolescent that was in our field), but they have attempted to kill many more cats that wander into our yard. 

No, my dogs are not monsters, nor have they ever once shown ANY signs of aggression towards people or young kids (however, they aren't unsupervised around young kids either). My dogs hunt. A cat to them is like a rabbit or mouse. It isn't a pet, it is prey. The same goes for my ferrets, my bird, my rodents, and my Guinea Pigs (except for Chloe, who loves my ferrets). 

I agree it could have been a pack thing. A simple game of chase can turn deadly when there is a pack of dogs. I know my two love to gang up on the rabbits in our garden and they don't give as much "umph" if they are by themselves. 

I also know that while my dogs chase cats that are outside, they ignore cats inside. They are never left unsupervised around the cats, but Rose - they one who actually caught and killed the one cat - was laying on a chair and Pheobe, our cat/kitten, was rubbing up against her underneath her chin and Rose didn't even bat an eye at her. 

Work with your dogs. Get them to reliabely obey a leave it command and a recall. And just don't leave your cats loose around them unsupervised. Not leaving your kids around any dogs unsupervised should go without saying.


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

no matter how domesticated the dog is they still have a bit of wild in them. you cant fully domesticate an animal and expect them to never have there natural instincts kick in. 

i think the cat ran, and boom they went into natural instinct mode. it happens. im sorry it happened to your cat.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

yes, i'm sorry for your loss as well


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Be prepared for the following. It is harsh. 

1.) This is 100% your responsibility. Allowing a pack of dogs, *ANY pack of dogs*, loose without supervision around another species of animal is INVITING trouble. *YOU did this. *

2.) You have 3 dogs who are obviously *UNTRAINED.* *TRAIN them.* This means all the time. No slack. Ever. Period. *NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE.* If training the dogs means too much time from the kids and husband, SO or whatever, REHOME THE DOGS, rehome the kids, or rehome the SO or husband because *you don't have the time or committment to do this RIGHT.* 

3.) _*NEVER EVER EVER ALLOW A PACK OF DOGS TO BE ALONE WITH CHILDREN, OTHER PETS, LIVESTOCK ETC.*_

I DON'T care HOW MUCH YOU "love" THESE ANIMALS. *A pack is a pack is a pack.* You have allowed this to happen by *NOT SUPERVISING.* 

Could this have been one of your kids? You betcha. READ THE NEWSPAPERS. Happens all the time. *Unsupervised, untrained dogs (and sometimes TRAINED dogs) left with children do sometimes hurt or kill them.* AFTER IT HAPPENS THE dogs pay *NOT THE PARENT WHO OUGHT TO PAY.*

*ALWAYS supervise your dogs when they are with your kids, other pets or at any time they are together. ALWAYS. *

*If you cannot supervise them, put them in kennel runs that separate them from each other. Crate them. NEVER EVER EVER allow them free together without direct supervision. Period. End of story. * If you cannot AFFORD separate Kennel Runs and Crates, you should not have 3 dogs.

The rest of what I want to say would get me tossed off the forum. *I cut you NO slack.* This is 100% YOUR DOING.

I am very sorry for your cat. I am not sorry for you.


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

im sorry but Elana half the stuff you put you have no clue about. they could be very well trained dogs. you never know. 

and i found most of the things you put very offensivly, even tho it wasnt apointed to me. it was very rude.


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## Bizzle3 (Sep 15, 2008)

Wow Elana. That was said very brutal and mean. I think you could have said that a little nicer....


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

nicer isnt the word for it bizzle. sounds like someone ran out of midol.


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## storysunfolding (Aug 26, 2008)

It's harsh but it gets the message across. Anything your dogs do is ultimately your fault. Complacency with your dogs around other animals or people is a recipe for disaster. If your dog isn't trained to leave it, off or recall regardless of what's happening, then it shouldn't be out of your immediate control.


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## Allydog (Jun 14, 2008)

Bizzle3 said:


> Wow Elana. That was said very brutal and mean. I think you could have said that a little nicer....


I agree....that was just uncalled for IMO. Jewels...I'm very sorry for what happened to your cat. I have 3 cats and there are times that Ally likes to chase them. I try to keep the cats and the dog seperate the best I can.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RED said:


> im sorry but Elana half the stuff you put you have no clue about. they could be very well trained dogs. you never know. .


True but unlikely. Very unlikely. 



RED said:


> and i found most of the things you put very offensivly, even tho it wasnt apointed to me. it was very rude.


Hence why I put the warning that it was harsh. If this post prevents one more person from allowing their cat or their child to be hurt by an unsupervised pack of dogs, it will have served its purpose. 

It was meant to be both offensive AND rude. It was meant as a WAKE UP. My job? No. My job to protect one more cat from being killed by an unsupervised dog? I think so. 

Wake up folks. Dogs in packs that are unsupervised will do "naughty things." Dogs alone and unconfined will do "naughty things." 

Not always, not every time, but enough times that the next post could very well be a reprint of a news article regarding someone's child who had to have multiple stitches, multiple plastic surgieries and the dog gets PTS and everyone is upset. 

Quite honestly, a cat was killed. This is a frequent enough happening that perhaps a bit of harshness.. a dose of reality if you will.. is warranted. 

I am sorry if you were offended, but that was my intent. Absolutely. The truth is often offensive because everyone would rather excuses and softness when none is warranted. 

Dogs act like dogs. Train them, Supervise them. Understand their behavior. Realize they are not little people wrapped up in packages and they WILL act like DOGS and when they DO it may be very unpleasant or it may be surprisingly touching. If you aren't there you oeither miss out on something great or miss out on prevention of something terrible (like the OP). . 

Pervention is 9/10ths of the cure. No one was preventing anythying here. 

I posted, awhile back, a story about a dog that ripped a child's face off.. and the dog was in the shelter with the child's Uncle fighting for the dog's life and the Child requiring multiple surgeries. The dog was PTS in a later story. The Uncle was unpunished for letting his nephew out in the yard with the dog unsupervised. The dog out weighed the child by about 20 pounds. Honestly, if the dog was PTS the Uncle should have been jailed for a good long time too as an accessory to the crime, but THAT didn't happen. The child is scarred, the dog is dead and the perp goes FREE!

Another story was recently posted regarding a dog, a puppy, that was PTS for killing a child left in a swing while the mother and Grandmother were sleeping in another room. People were upset about the child dying and the dog dying. Another case of a child and dog left together unsupervised. I expect the dog acted like a dog and the child like a child and the intervention in that case was a death.. eventually two deaths because the dog died too. No one else was punished. 

OK.. this was a cat. I feel more for the cat than for the cat's owner. Imagine for a second the terror that animal felt before being ripped to shreds. 

My post stands. NEVER LEAVE DOGS AND OTHER PETS OR CHILDREN TOGETHER UNSUPERVISED or you will be up for making excuses and asking questions and hand wringing when it all could have been prevented. If that is rude, so be it. 

Again, I repeat, prevention is 9/10ths of the cure. If that is offensive then too bad. I happen to like cats a lot. I have five. Atka likes "her" cats but she is never allowed to be with them unsupervised because stuff happens and prevention is still 9/10ths of the cure. 

This cat dying was preventable and someone needs to have the spine to say so without apology.


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## WhySoSerious? (Oct 9, 2008)

> im sorry but Elana half the stuff you put you have no clue about. they could be very well trained dogs. you never know.
> 
> and i found most of the things you put very offensivly, even tho it wasnt apointed to me. it was very rude.


Agreed.

That was uncalled for. 

This person has suffered enough and asked for help. Jewel didn't come in here blaming the dogs or saying anything out of line.

Zim and others made the point of warning supervision without being nasty and I think that was enough to get the point across without making her feel worse than she probably already does.


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## Bizzle3 (Sep 15, 2008)

storysunfolding said:


> It's harsh but it gets the message across. Anything your dogs do is ultimately your fault. Complacency with your dogs around other animals or people is a recipe for disaster. If your dog isn't trained to leave it, off or recall regardless of what's happening, then it shouldn't be out of your immediate control.


I totally understand. Anything that your dog does is your fault but it was a total accident/surprise that it happened!

But Elana`s answer was very very very brutal. 

Uncalled for


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## WhySoSerious? (Oct 9, 2008)

> It was meant to be both offensive AND rude. It was meant as a WAKE UP. My job? No. My job to protect one more cat from being killed by an unsupervised dog? I think so.


 I also doubt she will take advice from someone who talks to her like that. 

So in a way you could be repelling your point from getting across IMO.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Elana is just fine, that is just how she post. It's fast, to the point, and not sugar coated. No need to be. The OP needs to understand that when a dog does something, its the owners fault. Why must everything in this world be sugar coated? *sighs*

As for should you be worried about the kids, While you should NEVER leave your children alone with animals, Killing a cat is different from harming a human. Most dogs have an instinct to hunt, but will not hurt a human. I wouldn't worry about them turning on your children, but harming them is possible on accident. Pretty much, if your not in the room with your dogs and kids, your dogs should be in crates.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> Elana is just fine, that is just how she post. It's fast, to the point, and not sugar coated. No need to be. The OP needs to understand that when a dog does something, its the owners fault. Why must everything in this world be sugar coated? *sighs*


I agree that there are some things that need a 'blunt' touch - however I also think you need to maintain a bit of control over yourself too. Whens the last time you saw someone respond well to being berated like that? Whens the last time someone took that and said "Oh yeah, you're right!" It may happen from time to time but generally people shut down, they stop listening, and nothing gets solved. 

Fact of the matter is I wouldn't listen to that kind of 'wake up call' either. I don't need people acting rude and using the idea that they are 'getting a point across' as some sort of excuse. It doesn't work.

Similarly, I don't accept the fact that 'that's just how someone is' as an excuse either. I understand we have some feisty members - but that doesn't give you free reign to say whatever you like, however you like, IMO. 

What it really comes down to for me, is getting the message out there. In a way I know people will better open up to, listen to, etc. I KNOW rudeness does not help that cause at all. So personally, THAT is why posts like Elana's are not helpful in the least, in my experience.


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## Allydog (Jun 14, 2008)

I understand what Elana's trying to do...I am a cat lover as well and it kills me to think of a dog or a pack of dogs ripping a cat to death...yes, as their owners we are responsible for their actions, but just say it nicer....your second post where you explained and gave some examples was better. You can get a strong message across without being so cruel. Jewel, I have a baby gate so that if we aren't home and I leave Ally downstairs she can't get to the cats and if the cats come downstairs..well only one of them will...he can get back over the gate.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

If the OP is still paying attention.. I know exactly how you feel. My german shepherd killed my cat about 5 months ago. It still hurts because I feel so bad that she was suffering in her last moments of life.

The difference with my story is that this was an adult cat that was dropped on our doorstep by a family member when my dog was already grown. The other two cats I had when I got him as a puppy so he knew them.

The cat I had was TERRIFIED of dogs, she would defecate herself if they would come near her. I was actively looking to find her a new home.. but fate won that race. I feel terrible for the loss of Miss Kitty. I also know it was my fault for not finding her a home faster.

Am I worried that hes going to kill my 2 other cats? No.
Do I crate him or seperate him from the cats when Im not home? No.
Am I asking for trouble? I don't think so.

The only people that know our dogs is US. YOU have to evaluate the situation. I got an easy out because my dog was NOT friendly with this cat so that was easy to blame. I would have a whole other story had he killed one of the cats he was good with.

I am so very sorry this happened to you. Only you can know what to do. Maybe call a trainer and have them come assess the situation. Good luck, and if you need to talk, I've been there...feel free to PM me.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

You know, it is said that on a forum people say things they would not say in person to someone. Be assured that the first post AND the second I would say in person. Yes. I have gotten that tough. I choose my battles carefully and when I take aim I hit both triggers at once. Second shots are backups for first shot misses. 

Maybe it is my age. I am OLD compared to many of you here. I don't believe in the feel good thing and the whole "geeze don't hurt feelings or self esteem" because it might "damage" someone. I believe in straight shooting and accuracy. Hit the target and if it is not a happy and feel good thing, oh well. If the nerves are raw, then the problem is decidedly NOT mine. 

Oh yeah.. and if you are mad at me for being like that and you don't like what I said, join the line. Here's your number.... Line is over there... and your number is pretty high so I may not get to you today and tomorrow isn't looking good either. 

Meanwhile, I still stand by the idea that this was preventable and with a kid only a year old in the house... meaning crawling and in diapers.. someone needs to be the waker upper on this supervising and prevention is 9/10ths of the cure thing. Unsupervised dogs and a child at 25 pounds isn't a lot bigger than a cat to the dogs as described by the OP. 

Numbers are going fast. I think there are over 100 ahead of you..... 

PS: 4 dogs3cats this is in your signature: If you don't have the time to do something right, when will you have the time to do it over?

I could not agree more.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Elana- I wont get in line. You know I respect you IMMENSELY.

I choose to approach it differently. But I have nothing against people who put it harsher.

I just know when it happened to me.. I felt like nobody understood.

I understand.


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> True but unlikely. Very unlikely.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




here's something your not thinking about. PEOPLE HAVE FEELINGS you cant just be this heartless B***H that goes around on here saying that you don't feel the least bit sorry for it and that it was all her fault. and that she killed her cat. not only is it heartless but it's cruel. i mean common if you just had your cat killed by your pets that you loved and trusted then what would you do. you would be sad, you wouldn't want some one thinking they're the head honcho being completely rude to you and making you feel worse about it then you already do. it was something out of her control she didn't know. back off. 

she came here for comfort not for someone to make her feel worse about it. geesh.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Jewels, let me first say that I am sorry this happened. It must have been a terribly rude shock. However, you MUST take a lesson from this experience: that dogs are animals. Never forget this. You must expect dogs to perform according to their nature, and you must not expect them to act otherwise. 

Every time you leave a pack of dogs with a cat unsupervised, you are taking a huge risk. The odds are against you. It seems that in the past, you have come off on the safe end of this risk, but it seems that today was different. 

The same goes for your young children. Kids squeal, run quickly and make sudden movements. They can be mistaken for prey by a dog who doesn't know better. Kids also have a tendency to bother dogs by treating them as giant stuffed toys -- grabbing paws, ears and tails without realising that this is extremely irritating. Every dog has his limits, and kids often don't know how to read or respect warning signs. 

The lesson: Do not leave your dogs with your cats or kids unattended. If you do, know that you have a lot at stake. Things happen all the time to people who never see them coming. My dogs are two of the most people-friendly dogs you will ever meet, and they are of a breed that is known to be great with kids, but they have never, ever been unsupervised around kids. 

We are all dog lovers here, but even a dog lover must never for a moment mistake a dog for a human. Dogs can only be dogs and can only behave as instinct leads them to. I'm very sorry you had to learn this the hard way.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RED said:


> i mean common if you just had your cat killed by your pets that you loved and trusted then what would you do. .


In 52 years of owning animals, including 20 years of manageing 72 dairy cattle from which I derived my living (nad top DHIA records for my county including annual awards), young stock, an Ox, a few bulls, many cats, a few dogs, several horses, chickens, two raccoons (not really pets.. but rescued when their Mom got killed so raised them outside to grow up and be wild), rabbits, guinea pigs and ring necked pheasants, I NEVER lost one animal to another one. EVER. It is called management and prevention. 

Anything less is mismanagement and open for disaster. 

Education is important in this, be it education from someone already learned (an old tymer) or from books.. best from both with guided eperience. 



RED said:


> she came here for comfort not for someone to make her feel worse about it. geesh.


She came here, I assume, for education. Learning is not always a feel good situation. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes it is. 

My hope is that the OP sees the light and recognizes that she needs to manage this situation all the time. Three kennel runs with dogs separated for their safety and that of other pets and children when they cannot be supervised outside, three crates when inside, NILIF training, consistant NILIF training no matter what.. and so forth. 

My experience is most do not see the light, whether presented in a squeezy lovey feel good way or the way I do it.. which is not squeezy or feel good. 

Here's your number RED, get in line and take a deep breath, have some ice water. The wait is gonna be awhile. *sigh*


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

you cant use being old as an excuse for your rudness. because it's not. your not teaching her a damn thing. your basicly being a bully. you arent showing her how to do things right, your insulting her and saying shes a bad owner. that in my prospective is a bully.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

RED said:


> your not teaching her a damn thing. your basicly being a bully. you arent showing her how to do things right, your insulting her and saying shes a bad owner.





Elana55 said:


> My hope is that the OP sees the light and recognizes that she needs to manage this situation all the time. Three kennel runs with dogs separated for their safety and that of other pets and children when they cannot be supervised outside, three crates when inside, NILIF training, consistant NILIF training no matter what.. and so forth.


How is that not showing the OP how to do things right?


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

""If training the dogs means too much time from the kids and husband, SO or whatever, REHOME THE DOGS, rehome the kids, or rehome the SO or husband because you don't have the time or committment to do this RIGHT.""


""If you cannot supervise them, put them in kennel runs that separate them from each other. Crate them. NEVER EVER EVER allow them free together without direct supervision. Period. End of story. If you cannot AFFORD separate Kennel Runs and Crates, you should not have 3 dogs.

The rest of what I want to say would get me tossed off the forum. I cut you NO slack. This is 100% YOUR DOING.

I am very sorry for your cat. I am not sorry for you.""

and you really this this is helping?? this is basicly riping someones heart out throwing it on the floor spitting on it and putting it all back and putting ductape on it and saying to her, oh im sorry im rude to you. it's because im old and i know better then you. oh and wait your a bad owner, mother, and wife because im who i am and you get over it. 

to me thats not right, you dont teach someone like that.


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I definitely won't berate Elana for their post, because it should be common sense that animals will be animals, and we've all seen Tom and Jerry cartoons of the bulldog trying to eat Jerry and sticking up for the mouse...simple as that may be, it does show something inheritantly possible. That cats and dogs don't always get along.
Safety first, keep cats and dogs seperated. I KNOW my male dog will kill a cat, we had a stray in the neighborhood that jumped the fence and subsequently never made it to the other side. Yes "leave it" worked, but the damaged was already done with one bite. MY fault for not getting out there sooner to save the cat. For the record, I am not a cat lover and will not have them in my home, but I do not wish to see them killed either.

To the OP, take this as a lesson learned, that your dogs cannot be trusted to be with your cats alone, and your children either. Accidents happen, and the safest thing to do is keep your dogs away from your cats/children when they can't be supervised. I have a dog that cannot be crated, so if I have to go upstairs to do something, I put him out in my garage (that we don't park in) until I can come back down. This keeps my 3 children (5 yr old, 2 yr old, and a 7 week old) safe. I trust my dogs, but I don't want to think of the "what if's" 
It is sad that your cat lost his/her life, but now you know and you can prevent it 100% from happening again.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RED said:


> you cant use being old as an excuse for your rudness. because it's not. your not teaching her a damn thing. your basicly being a bully. you arent showing her how to do things right, your insulting her and saying shes a bad owner. that in my prospective is a bully.


Ah but you misinterpret. I am NOT _excusing_ myself at all. I stand by what I said. If this person came to me weeping, wailing, gnashing teeth and wringing her hands I would say the same things as bluntly as I have said them here. You don't like it. Oh well. Your problem. 

She isn't a good owner until she learns the basic premise that you must manage and supervise your animals to prevent "accidents." She feels bad. She _should_ feel bad and learn from it. Learning isn't always pleasant. I feel bad for the cat. 

The human can learn. Too late for the cat. The cat paid. The human gets off free feeling "guilt" which is a useless self imposed thing. _LEARN from what happened and shed the guilt. _ KNOW you BLEW IT and make sure it never happens again because you have learned to manage your animals. 

That is what animal ownership is (or should be).. paying attention, managing the situation, preventing problems, supervising what is going on. Anything less is well.. just that.. less.... Not a passing grade.

BTW what happened to the Cat's Heart was truly physical. The psycho babble of what happens to the OP's "heart" is her problem, not mine.


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

but in her OP she obviously was sorry about it and felt guilty...did you really think it was nessicary to say those things you did?

""If training the dogs means too much time from the kids and husband, SO or whatever, REHOME THE DOGS, rehome the kids, or rehome the SO or husband because you don't have the time or committment to do this RIGHT.""

right there was one of the parts i absolutely did not agree with. you have no right to even bring in something like that. once again there is no reason to insult someone in order to bring your point across. there is other methods. this just so happened to be the wrong approach it was rude and inconsiderate. there is no excuse for some of the things you said.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RED said:


> but in her OP she obviously was sorry about it and felt guilty...did you really think it was nessicary to say those things you did?
> 
> ""If training the dogs means too much time from the kids and husband, SO or whatever, REHOME THE DOGS, rehome the kids, or rehome the SO or husband because you don't have the time or committment to do this RIGHT.""
> 
> right there was one of the parts i absolutely did not agree with. you have no right to even bring in something like that. once again there is no reason to insult someone in order to bring your point across. there is other methods. this just so happened to be the wrong approach it was rude and inconsiderate. there is no excuse for some of the things you said.


Actually, this is what I see from the OP. Three dogs running Amock with the cat in the back yard. Owner busy with kids (she has _little_ kids) or husband or laundry or house work or WHATEVER. Dogs, kids, husbands, houses all take time and effort. I see no time for SLEEP in any of this.. for all I know she is also working FT? Even if she is a stay at home Mom, where is her attention? Can't be ON the DOGS outside.. maybe Junior needs his diaper changed, or Bobby has a fever and she is calling the doctor or husband forgot his lunch and she is taking it to him. WHO KNOWS? It is a LOT on her plate from her OWN description. 

And, because the dogs are running amock together unsupervised they decide "chase the cat" is fun. Cat loses. 

All preventable with three separate kennels for the dogs (as they should be if they cannot be supervised). If no money or time for three runs, then something needs to GO so that this situation can be adequately handled. I sarcastically added rehoming kids or husband because there is too much to handle here without significant help. Of course, the dogs will be the ones to pay either with out any training or being rehomed (or both). Like I said, in the beginning of the post, it was harsh. I made no apologies. Still don't. 

Now about rights.. *Tell me again about the rights the poor cat had.* Oh yeah.. that's right.. it was ONLY a cat... and my gosh.. the HUMAN *FEELS* BAD. 

Well Geeze Loueeze. Wonder how the cat felt? 

And, what if it were the 1 year old downstairs while Mommy was upstairs making the bed or taking care of Bobby with the fever??? If it were, we might be reading another one of those links to a news story.


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

well this is what i see...
someone being completly rude to someone looking for confert. i also see someone who thinks it's for the better to insult someone and it will help them learn. news flash hunn. your antics are unethical and cruel. no help comes from the way you put things. some of what you put was realistic. i will give you that. but others was nothing but rude. and rude gets you no where but making yourself look bad.

oh and also, if your just gonna suggest taking them and sticking the 3 dogs in kennels, then what kind of life is that either. i would rather let the dogs be out of a cage. it's not right to lock an animal in a cage like that. if they never did it before then why lock them up like that. it's like putting them in jail for something that they had no control over, sounds like to me it was animal instinct. and it'll probably never happen again. who knows its all a mystery. but if you lock them in a cage what kind of life are you giving them. it's not one i think you would want to live? would you?


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

RED - My dogs spend a lot of time in crates, or rooms, not running free. It's the kind of life that keeps them maganaged, safe and I make it so they are content. The last time my significant other screwed up and left the dogs to run free unsupervised one of my dogs payed for it with his eye when he was bitten. I also paid for it with over $1000 in vet bills. The dog could have easily paid for it with his life. I don't know exactly what happened because no one was there to see it, but the incident was something that had never happened before. There is no way I am going to take chances on it never happening again, so when we leave the dogs they are crated, or put up in rooms where they'll be safe and comfortable until I return and we can play or train together.

As we say around here, "Dogs is dogs!"


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Actually, this is what I see from the OP. Three dogs running Amock with the cat in the back yard. Owner busy with kids (she has _little_ kids) or husband or laundry or house work or WHATEVER. Dogs, kids, husbands, houses all take time and effort. I see no time for SLEEP in any of this.. for all I know she is also working FT? Even if she is a stay at home Mom, where is her attention? Can't be ON the DOGS outside.. maybe Junior needs his diaper changed, or Bobby has a fever and she is calling the doctor or husband forgot his lunch and she is taking it to him. WHO KNOWS? It is a LOT on her plate from her OWN description.
> 
> And, because the dogs are running amock together unsupervised they decide "chase the cat" is fun. Cat loses.
> 
> ...


hehehe..way to go Elana havin some balls..you said what I wanted to say...Im just taking a break from the crosshairs for a bit..lol.

to RED.

If the OP takes offence it should be the OP's place to respond. The OP is a person and if they are offended or feel like Elana has launched a personal attack they are well within their rights to report it to the mods. Elana has the right to express her opinion in her own shotgun toting badmamajama kinda of way...

sheesh....yall chill out...

OP..Elana spoke harshly but what she said was true. What you need to decide is where you want to go with it. Look hard at your life and decide whether you can devote the effort time and money into working with these dogs. It is of vast importance..too many tragic dog bite stories pop up when people don't take these issues dead seriously. If you can you should call a behaviorist and work through this...if not..the dogs should be rehomed.

there goes my two pennies..


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

I agree with Elana. I've seen too many cases of people not managing their dogs and calling it "animal instincts" or "prey drive". There is no excuse for this to have happened. 

To the OP, I am sorry this lesson was paid for by the life of your cat.  Hopefully you can find a way to manage your dogs and get a recall on them.

You should have been able to stop the melee the instant you saw what was happening.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Crating dogs while inside is a very common parctice. It is not cruel. RED needs to learn more about dogs and why and how they behave. Kennel runs when dogs are not supervised are absolutely NO different than separate fenced yards. 

None of these things are meant as "jails" and should never be used as such. They are management tools for those times when animals cannot be watched and supervised. If the baby needs to be put down for his nap, he is likely placed in a safe location called a crib (is this jail?) and then Mom might be able to put a load of laundry in or wash the dishes or pick up the other kids toys so she can run the vaccuum. 

Crating and kenneling dogs keeps them safe from each other and from mischief. These devices are used to house dogs when they cannot be supervised directly. An uncrated dog can kill itself in a house by chewing on something like an electrical cord. An unfenced dog in a yard with other unfenced unsupervised dogs cause all kinds of mischief (there was a post here not long ago where a neighbors little dog got thru the fence and in with another neighbors large dog and was either badly hurt or killed). 

If you use a crate or a kennel as a jail, then you really should not have a dog. dogs need a lot of time outside these things as well, but when they cannot be directly supervised they need to be in safe enclosures indoors or out side. I don't know of any responsible kennel operator, where dogs are boarded, that allows dogs in the same run unsupervised. They may be allowed in a fenced area together while being supervised, but never in the same run unsupervised. It is recipe for disaster (like the dog with the $1,000 vet bill for its eye). 

Prey drive is no mystery. It is something that has been studied and discussed at length on this forum and by authors such as Patricia McConnell (The Other End of the Leash) and Jean Donaldson (The Culture Clash) and any book you read on training dogs for herding or French Ring sports. 

RED.. you are unrealistic in your expectations of managing all the OP has on her plate without crates or kennel runs. She cannot be everywhere at once. No one could. This is why for the runs and the crates. Safety for the dogs, kids, cats and any other thing that dogs can get into. 

If the OP was offended, hurt and all the rest, it is her place to come back and say so, not yours. It is HER spine and if she doesn't have one, that is HER problem. 

Personally, I don't believe in hurt feelings. If you get "hurt feelings" on an internet forum I find that just unreasonable. Feelings are, whether you like it or not, your own responsibility. If you choose to feel hurt, that is a choice, much the same as guilt. It solves nothing. 

If, on the other hand, strongly stated opinions are something you do not agree with, then as the OP you should say so and why. That is the educated response. Emotional responses, such as yours, Red, (which show lack of control and education by resorting to name calling) rarely win arguments or debates. 

An issue may be an emotional issue but making an argument requires leaving those emotions at the door. 

If the OP were looking for comfort, then she should state that plainly without the request for advice. She stated she was looking for advice and that is what I gave. Straight up and down and with out the sugar and spice and everything nice to cover the issue.


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## jbray01 (Dec 26, 2007)

as someone who has cats AND a dog, i know this must be a truly painful experience for you. it is a traumatizing experience to lose a beloved pet, and i cannot even begin to imagine the pain of losing one in this way. i am truly sorry.

unfortunately this is a very sad and hurtful way to learn a very hard lesson. from now on, maybe when you cannot watch the dogs, put them in a crate. it is not only for the safety of your child and your cats, but its for your dgos safety. it is not cruel. it is a safe place for them to go. its "Their spot"

that being said i am sorry for your loss, and i'm sorry if you were offended by some of the replies, but while they may be a little harsh, they speak the truth. you need to be more careful in the future for your child's your cat's and your dogs' safety.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Whoa I read the OPs original post and never went further because it was another bad news story where an animal paid the price. 

Red, 
I am even older that elana and have more dog experience than a bunch of people on this forum. The big difference is that elana is fighting the good fight, she cares enough to get on forum and maybe damage her reputation as a nice person to shake people up a tad so that they know this animal owning stuff is serious and animals hurt when killed by dogs or stupidity. Sometimes in life it's the down your throat or up your butt attitude that is the only thing that shakes some people up.

Me, I've given up the fight, I frequently use the terms, "fun is in the picking", "life is full of choices" when giving training or animal care advice on forum because I know that people being people will do whatever they want to. Let's discuss the being older, only got one thing to say, elana has been where you're at you haven't been where elana is now (or anybody older is)

Now as a professional dog trainer with 90 breeds and a bunch of years under his belt, still training and boarding I am asked constantly by people dropping dogs off if they can be kenneled in same run because FiFi and FoFo are very nice. The answer is always NO. Would I trust kids and dogs together alone NO. Dogs and cats alone NO. Does this mean that all dogs/kids/cats will have bad accidents NO but the ones under my care won't and it's a pain in the butt sometimes because it's more work but it's my choice. As I said above, everybody else can do what they choose to do.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

I'm posting to thank the responders -- all of them. I have several cats and a dog. He's still a puppy, so always supervised or crated anyway, but I hadn't given a tremendous amount of thought yet to what would happen when he was more trustworthy in the house and I wasn't directly supervising for a few minutes. This was a good reminder to me that animals will always be animals. It doesn't mean we should love them less, but that we shouldn't get complacent because "they've always behaved well." So thanks, DF members. I've also passed along the message to a few close family members. 

And OP, I can't imagine how horrible this must feel. Please remember this lesson, for all of the animals and people in your life.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I have three dogs, two cats, and two kids, and management is key. Separate or supervise. None of my animals (or kids) have any issues with aggression and even have very low prey drive, but I don't give them any chance to mess up. The very best investment I've made in my house is baby gates. I can contain my dogs either in the kitchen or the whole downstairs, plus they have individual crates. The cats can go over/through the gates, but the dogs cannot. I also have a cat door in the door to my bedroom and litter boxes both up and downstairs so they don't have to go into any area where the dogs are to go to the bathroom if they don't want to. The dogs are crated when I'm not home, and when I am home they are 99% of the time in the same room with me....and this is all for dogs and cats that get along. When I am home the cats most times, especially the younger one, choose to be with me and the dogs anyway, but I want to be able to be there and be in control of the situation, and the cats should always have an easy escape if the feel uncomfortable.

At the risk of rambling, I also would supervise dogs outside, even in a fenced area, and would not let my cats outside at all...many dogs behave differently around cats outside than inside. Also my dogs are not allowed to chase, bark at, paw at, or mouth the cats...I know alot of people allow this and think the dog will never catch the cat, or they're just playing, but I don't allow it. They are allowed to lay with the cats, nose them, or lick them (this is a recent thing one of the dogs does).

Last thing, I noticed that bells on the cats collars increased the dogs interest in the cats, so I took the bells off the collars.

I know all that sounds like a pita, but most of it is habit and routine for me now and it's really easy to close a gate behind me or call the dogs with me when I leave a room.


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Crating dogs while inside is a very common parctice. It is not cruel. RED needs to learn more about dogs and why and how they behave. Kennel runs when dogs are not supervised are absolutely NO different than separate fenced yards.
> 
> None of these things are meant as "jails" and should never be used as such. They are management tools for those times when animals cannot be watched and supervised. If the baby needs to be put down for his nap, he is likely placed in a safe location called a crib (is this jail?) and then Mom might be able to put a load of laundry in or wash the dishes or pick up the other kids toys so she can run the vaccuum.
> 
> ...



all im saying is what you origonaly said was very rude and went too far. and you know it did, i will say this again, some of what you said is realistic. others wasnt at all it was rude and uncalled for. 

as for the kennals i believe in kennal runs not just regulare kennals. but sometimes people dont have enough time for these as well. who has the time to put one up for every dog? i believe dogs wasnt ment for cages tho but thats just me. seeing how my dog was rescued from a small cage that she coudlnt even stand in i kinda lost all my sence of taste for them now.

yes, i have respect for you. i understand what your saying it's just i woudlnt want to be her and see someone judging her just because they think they know how her life is. she probably has the best family ever, you never know. she might have the best trained animals, you never know that either. even the best trained animals slip up.


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## MolliesMom (Jun 8, 2008)

Notice the OP hasn't posted on here since the original post. Berating people and making them feel like crap when they are obviously already feeling bad and probably beating themselves up more than you ever could doesn't help teach a lesson. The OP probably left and will never come back from Elana's extreme judgment of, not only the situation, but her husband, children, and lifestyle.


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## storysunfolding (Aug 26, 2008)

RED said:


> all im saying is what you origonaly said was very rude and went too far.... it was rude and uncalled for.


I'm completely on the other side of the fence. Three unsupervised dogs has too much potential to ignore. What if a kid slipped into the yard and they "played" to hard with it? This would be an entirely different discussion based around the same issue- lack of control and supervision. 



> seeing how my dog was rescued from a small cage that she coudlnt even stand in i kinda lost all my sence of taste for them now.


I don't think anyone is talking about jamming dogs into too small cages. I'm also sorry to heard about your experience. However, a correctly sized crate or kennel is a perfect place for a dog who isn't currently under your supervision. It's a wonderful way to train a dog and mine loves her crate, sleeping there exclusively.



> i woudlnt want to be her and see someone judging her just because they think they know how her life is.


I don't think any of us care about her private life. We are concerned about the behavior that led to this incident. Given the ramifications of her actions, I'm not going to sugar coat anything either. This was her fault and without a change in behavior this could just as easily occur with her small children.



> even the best trained animals slip up.


That's actually the main point. By keeping the animals supervised and controlled then slip ups don't have such dramatic effects


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

RED said:


> even the best trained animals slip up.


No. This is wrong. Training a dog relies on consistency. If the dog slips up...the responsibility is the owner's . Period. the dog is just being a dog. In this case and in ten million other dog attacks both similar and different...it IS in FACT the fault of the owner. 

I think you are seriously misunderstanding...and that's scary.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RED said:


> all im saying is what you origonaly said was very rude and went too far. .


I disagree. Honestly, I held back and IMO I didn't go far enough. This woman has 3 kids... ages 1, 2 and 3. ALL are likely in diapers. One is not walking, one is walking and falling down, one is walking and hanging on to stuff. These kids are a LOT to do and 3 large dogs too? 

Diapers are, in a dog's world, SNACK TIME and it doesn't matter that the diaper is attached to the child and the child, if messed with poo can become a partial snack too. That is the nature of dogs. The Cat was snack time. 

It is impossible to supervise and manage this number of dogs and young children without confinement and equipment to do so or hired help. When are these dogs walked the hour (or more) they need to be walked every day rain or shine? When are they trained? How is that time table working (or not working)? It wasn't working the day the cat died. 



RED said:


> as for the kennals i believe in kennal runs not just regulare kennals. but sometimes people dont have enough time for these as well. who has the time to put one up for every dog? .


Dogs require both TIME and MONEY and they are WORK. If you do not have time, space or $$ to put up separate kennels for these three dogs and you do not have time to supervise them when they are together, then you should not have them. Three 6 foot high Chain Link or heavy welded wire kennels can be put up in a weekend or over two weekends (if you use a form and concrete pad and do it right). 



RED said:


> i believe dogs wasnt ment for cages tho but thats just me. seeing how my dog was rescued from a small cage that she coudlnt even stand in i kinda lost all my sence of taste for them now.


I am sorry you got a puppy mill dog or a dog that was unjustly confined. This does not make crates bad. It makes the previous owner of YOUR dog a bad owner. God 4 U for rescuing her or him. Previous owner ought to spend some time confined, but the laws just don't work like that do they?

I recommend you read a book that is relatively inexpensive to purchase called "Crate Games" from www.dogwise.com or get a used from one of the on line book sellers. A crate should never be a jail or a punishment. It should be a management tool just like a kennel run or an outdoor kennel. 



RED said:


> yes, i have respect for you. i understand what your saying it's just i woudlnt want to be her and see someone judging her just because they think they know how her life is. she probably has the best family ever, you never know. she might have the best trained animals, you never know that either. *even the best trained animals slip up*.


Empahsis added. 

No. *They do not "slip up" if they are supervised, managed and trained.* As said previously, and I will say it again, in years and years of managing animals I have NEVER had a "slip up." That is what responsible animal ownership is about. A slip up can mean no second chances. This was a clear case of no second chances for the cat. What if this were her one year old crawling on the floor while Mom went in the other room to answer the phone (remember the diaper snack thing)? 

I have no idea about her family or any of the rest. The dogs, however, I would bet money, are an untrained bunch. I bet this just based n the time factor and the age of the children. Maybe she is wealthy and has a Nanny in which case, the cat's death was even MORE inexcusable!

It is also my opinion that cats should not be let out to roam and get killed by dogs, run over by cars, abused by people who catch them or injured by other cats. I have rescued too many, scraped more than a few off the road, seen the rescues (and the bodies from the failed rescues) and have had to write about this in a column for the local humane society years ago. 

RED, we are not going to agree on this and I am not apologizing for my posts.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I might get flammed for this but I am also of the mind set that cats don't need to be out running wild. 

I get on my mom about this all the time...she lives in a very rural area of GA and lets her cats in and out of the house all the time....there are way too many things that can happen to them....GA has a big problem w/stray and feral dogs (at least in her area) for anyone to let there cats out unsupervised.

I believe in leash laws for cat as well as dogs....

Ok post hijack over


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

I have to say Elana pretty much said what I was thinking - that three large pups running loose is a disaster waiting to happen, and it happened, and that it is almost inevitable for a family with three toddlers and three large pups. I know I have spent all my time for the last 8 months working with Barclay, I can't imagine having two at once, let alone three, and three kids on top of that. The unfortunate part is that a cat had to die to make people notice how out of control the situation was, and now those dogs are going to pay.

As for cats, I am of the opinion that house cats are simply not as happy as outdoor cats (having had both), and I'd rather my cats lived a short and happy life, than a long boring one.


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## storysunfolding (Aug 26, 2008)

BarclaysMom said:


> As for cats, I am of the opinion that house cats are simply not as happy as outdoor cats (having had both), and I'd rather my cats lived a short and happy life, than a long boring one.


Depends on the cat. We have one that thrives outdoors, and the other hates it. The inside guy loves to create harmless mischief and is a perpetual kitten... if perpetually tubby regardless of his diet.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BarclaysMom said:


> I have to say Elana pretty much said what I was thinking - that three large pups running loose is a disaster waiting to happen, and it happened, and that it is almost inevitable for a family with three toddlers and three large pups. I know I have spent all my time for the last 8 months working with Barclay, I can't imagine having two at once, let alone three, and three kids on top of that. The unfortunate part is that a cat had to die to make people notice how out of control the situation was, and now those dogs are going to pay.
> 
> As for cats, I am of the opinion that house cats are simply not as happy as outdoor cats (having had both), and I'd rather my cats lived a short and happy life, than a long boring one.



I'm not saying cats should not go out at all but they should not be outdoor animals.....you wouldn't do that with your dog..why a cat?.....I'm all for cat runs...that would be my solution.

I'm sure there is a whole other thread about indoor/outdoor cats...so I don't want to take over this one....though if that cat had been inside could this situation have been avoided?


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

pugmom said:


> ...though if that cat had been inside could this situation have been avoided?


But it could have been a squirrel or a neighbor's dog or a kid sneaking in to get his ball. And you can't get rid of all the wandering cats, there will always be someone who lets theirs out, or who's cat sneaks out. That's what happened when my grandmother's untrained rotties killed her cats. They were essentially an untrained mob of two, and they killed the indoor cat when it snuck outside. No doubt it never even thought to run away from the dogs it snuggled up and slept with inside. I've always wondered why the dogs didn't stop as soon as they smelled it and knew it was their cat. Prey drive is the only thing I can imagine, maybe territoriality. 

FWIW my cats are indoor/outdoor, and they are welcome to stay indoors all the time (in fact I would prefer it), but I can't keep them in if they are pining at the windows and whining to go outside and explore. They are just so much happier having the freedom to do as they choose. Though I do not object to people who can keep their cats happy inside all the time, I think that is wonderful, and safer for the cats, no question about it.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

I do agree cats should be indoor animals but I also agree if people want to let the roam outside they give up the right to get mad if the cats wonders onto someone elses's property and gets killed by a dog or run over by a car! That of course is just an opinion.......


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BarclaysMom said:


> But it could have been a squirrel or a neighbor's dog or a kid sneaking in to get his ball. And you can't get rid of all the wandering cats, there will always be someone who lets theirs out, or who's cat sneaks out. That's what happened when my grandmother's untrained rotties killed her cats. They were essentially an untrained mob of two, and they killed the indoor cat when it snuck outside. No doubt it never even thought to run away from the dogs it snuggled up and slept with inside. I've always wondered why the dogs didn't stop as soon as they smelled it and knew it was their cat. Prey drive is the only thing I can imagine, maybe territoriality.
> 
> FWIW my cats are indoor/outdoor, and they are welcome to stay indoors all the time (in fact I would prefer it), but I can't keep them in if they are pining at the windows and whining to go outside and explore. They are just so much happier having the freedom to do as they choose. Though I do not object to people who can keep their cats happy inside all the time, I think that is wonderful, and safer for the cats, no question about it.



True it could have been another animal w/is why kennels are a lifesaver if you cant supervise ...but in the OP situation if the cat had been inside and the dogs out ...the cat would still be around...but that is just MO...every ones situation is different ......I lost my cat to a car and that is why I now realize that for me letting a cat out to run lose is in my eyes is irresponsible...


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

sw_df27 said:


> I do agree cats should be indoor animals but I also agree if people want to let the roam outside they give up the right to get mad if the cats wonders onto someone elses's property and gets killed by a dog or run over by a car! That of course is just an opinion.......


my cats are indoor/outdoor as well. They stay within our block.. and are usually sitting in front of the neighbors garage lol.

IF anything were to happen to my cats I would blame nobody but myself.

If they went into a neighbors yard and were killed by the dog.. I would not blame the dog.

If they were hit by a car... I would not blame the car.

To me-- my neighborhood is safe, and they stay by the house. and only go out maybe once every few days. The risk to me is worth it for them to be able to explore


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> my cats are indoor/outdoor as well. They stay within our block.. and are usually sitting in front of the neighbors garage lol.
> 
> IF anything were to happen to my cats I would blame nobody but myself.
> 
> ...


Not trying to put down your choice but just for Curiosity sake...
Do you let your dogs do that?...if not why?


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pugmom said:


> Do you let your dogs do that?...if not why?


Because my dogs are not as smart as my cats and cant hop walls and lay under bushes. My cats end up sitting on my back wall and watching the neighborhood. There are no strays in my neighborhood, and both my cats are neutered so they arent adding to the population.

cats and dogs are very different animals. I take my dogs out to run around at a dog park off leash..

If they made a cat park... who would go? I know not lots of cats get along.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

so it's worth risking your cats life so it can explore? huh interesting........


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

sw_df27 said:


> so it's worth risking your cats life so it can explore? huh interesting........


Would you want to live inside your house all day long? My cats dont have a large risk being outside. Sure cars and stuff.. but not much besides that


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> Because my dogs are not as smart as my cats and cant hop walls and lay under bushes. My cats end up sitting on my back wall and watching the neighborhood. There are no strays in my neighborhood, and both my cats are neutered so they arent adding to the population.
> 
> cats and dogs are very different animals. I take my dogs out to run around at a dog park off leash..
> 
> If they made a cat park... who would go? I know not lots of cats get along.


too many unknowns for me...if your cats are outside and your not there how do you know what they are up too? or where they go?....and I know you said you have a "safe" neighborhood..but people are people...and are known to do nasty things ...especially unsupervised kids....how do you keep them from going onto other peoples property?


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

I think my cat is pretty happy being indoors.  She's never told me otherwise


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

How can you even compare a cat to a human? and another thing you said no risks except cars and stuff isn't that enough of a risk?


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pugmom said:


> too many unknowns for me...if your cats are outside and your not there how do you know what they are up too? or where they go?....and I know you said you have a "safe" neighborhood..but people are people...and are known to do nasty things ...especially unsupervised kids....how do you keep them from going onto other peoples property?


I dont keep them from going onto other peoples property. Like I said.. maybe people think it is cruel.. but my cats enjoy going outside. They dont like being coops up inside. I know people have their views about things and I certainly respect your opinion don't get me wrong. 



Mac'N'Roe said:


> I think my cat is pretty happy being indoors.  She's never told me otherwise


Well my cats do tell me otherwise. They whine and cry at the door. Plus I have a doggy door so it would be pretty impossible to keep them inside. Im not going to lock up my cats so they dont go outside. My moms cats go outside and they have for 6 years and they're fine.



sw_df27 said:


> How can you even compare a cat to a human? and another thing you said no risks except cars and stuff isn't that enough of a risk?


Yeah of course it is. But when I take my dogs hiking there is also a risk of mountain lions. Im not going to not let my cats have fun and enjoy being outside just in case a car happens to come by and my cats not quick enough to get out of the way.

Im not going to keep my cats unhappy inside just because of the what ifs.

And I was comparing my cat to a human because cats were compared to dogs.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> *I dont keep them from going onto other peoples property*. Like I said.. maybe people think it is cruel.. but my cats enjoy going outside. They dont like being coops up inside. I know people have their views about things and I certainly respect your opinion don't get me wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Well my cats do tell me otherwise. They whine and cry at the door. Plus I have a doggy door so it would be pretty impossible to keep them inside. Im not going to lock up my cats so they dont go outside. My moms cats go outside and they have for 6 years and they're fine.


See that's another big problem I have .....I don't want other peoples animals in my yard....I don't know if they have their shots or what..plus I don't want poop and pee in my garden...not saying that's what your cats do but I know that some do....

I wouldn't let my dog go on other peoples property w/out permission why is this ok for cats?


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> Would you want to live inside your house all day long? My cats dont have a large risk being outside. Sure cars and stuff.. but not much besides that


What about the risks of your cats to everyone in your neighborhood? You may be ok with the risk of your cat dying when the neighbor runs over it, but what about the neighbor who has a car accident trying to avoid hitting your cat? I assume your cats have their claws, so if you aren't concerned about something or someone hurting your cat, what about your cat hurting another animal or child? Not to mention that not everyone appreciates your cat hanging out on their property.

Responsible pet ownership isn't species specific.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pugmom said:


> See that's another big problem I have .....I don't want other peoples animals in my yard....I don't know if they have their shots or what..plus I don't want poop and pee in my garden...not saying that's what your cats do but I know that some do....
> 
> I wouldn't let my dog go on other peoples property w/out permission why is this ok for cats?


because dogs are different than cats. By other peoples property I mean sometimes Mittens will lay in front of my neighbors garage door. My litterbox is just as full as it was when they never went outside. really Mittens is the only one who goes outside.. If Toby does its just to lay in the sun on the back patio usually.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> because dogs are different than cats. By other peoples property I mean sometimes Mittens will lay in front of my neighbors garage door. My litterbox is just as full as it was when they never went outside. really Mittens is the only one who goes outside.. If Toby does its just to lay in the sun on the back patio usually.


I need you to explain why you think they are different?....


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## jbray01 (Dec 26, 2007)

haha when did this turn into a debate about indoor v.s outdoor cats?

my cats all live indoors. they have never been outside. ignorance is bliss.

there are also certain breeds of cats that have had their defense mechanisms bred out of them...ie ragdolls..


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

when the OP never came back...............but I suppose your right we did kinda hijack but I think this topic is good too!


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I need you to explain why you think they are different?....


Is that a question or a request?

If that was a request:

Because if my dogs were to go outside they would run. They would try to play with every living thing they saw. They would bark. They would not be able to jump up a wall if something were to threaten them. They would get dirty. They would cause complaints.

I have never had any complaints about my cats being outside because like I said, 99% of the time they are in my backyard. When they arent, they arent roaming the neighborhood meowing and pooping in peoples yards.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> Is that a question or a request?
> 
> If that was a request:
> 
> ...


if your not w/them 100% of the time I don't think you can say that w/100% certainty.....your cats may stay in your yard most of the time but you said they do go onto other people property so...honestly they could be doing all kinds of things...most likely not but they are animals so they would do what ever comes natural to them...they arent going to run home to just to use the cat box..

4dogs- please don't feel as if I'm attacking you personally ....I like knowing the other side of this topic


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

> If you don't have the time to do something right, when will you have the time to do it over



Isn't that one of your quotes......... and how do you know they aren't using other peoples yards to use the bathroom..... you said you have a doggie door so obviously when your not home you don't know where your cats could or couldn't be....... but like I said before it's your choice but I don't see how the risk of your cat getting run over or killed by another animal isn't enough of a reason for you to keep your cats inside..........


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

My neighbors indoor/outdoor cat has been pooping in my yard...I have enough poop to pick up with three dogs, why is this ok? And some animal tore a hole in my screen trying to get into my house last night...I'll give the neighbor cats the benefit of the doubt until I know for sure it wasn't wildlife, but my goodness, indoor or outdoor, I don't even care, but cats need to be contained on their owners property just like dogs.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pugmom said:


> if your not w/them 100% of the time I don't think you can say that w/100% certainty.....your cats may stay in your yard most of the time but you said they do go onto other people property so...honestly they could be doing all kinds of things...most likely not but they are animals so they would do what ever comes natural to them...they arent going to run home to just to use the cat box..


Well they are animals but you dont know my cats. The VERY first thing they do when they come back inside is run right to the litterbox. I clean the litterbox every day, I kow how much I used to clean and I can tell you its the same as I clean now.

Why is that such a concern first of all when cats bury their poop? We have neighbors that walk their dogs and let their dogs go to the bathroom in everyones front lawn.



sw_df27 said:


> Isn't that one of your quotes......... and how do you know they aren't using other peoples yards to use the bathroom..... you said you have a doggie door so obviously when your not home you don't know where your cats could or couldn't be....... but like I said before it's your choice but I don't see how the risk of your cat getting run over or killed by another animal isn't enough of a reason for you to keep your cats inside..........


When I am not home my fiance is.. and they sleep. My cats dont go outside all day long, when they go outside, they are out for about an hour. I say they, but again Mittens will go outside for maybe an hour or two. Toby rarely goes outside but when he does its not for a long time.

We are either going to have to start a new thread or agree to disagree on this one. Its not fair to hijack the OP's thread, even if she isnt coming back


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

When I catch cats going potty in my veggie garden...they go in the carrier and get dropped at the shelter. Period. My family relies on that garden to keep food costs down and I WILL NOT tolerate it being contaminated by feline droppings. I don't care whose cat it is.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

"Why is that such a concern first of all when cats bury their poop? We have neighbors that walk their dogs and let their dogs go to the bathroom in everyones front lawn."

Two wrongs do NOT make a right. I do not like digging up cat sh*t in my garden. My cat does not eliminate anywhere but in her box and I always pick up after my dogs.

I own dogs and a cat. If my cat goes outdoors I go with her and she is not allowed to wander. In this way she can be happy AND safe.


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

LOLOL, This is one heck of thread, would have ended abruptly had not "Big Red" come on the scene. Speaking of "CATS" my neighbor has three of the little buggers, and they go and come where ever they please. I had to spend days of my free time to relandscape next to my house, they kept digging in the ground doing there thing. I bought a new boat, and they thought it was their plaything!lol I got scratches up the cuszoo all over the highly polished fiberglass. They sleep on board during the nights now. This rule that cats can go any where and not be responsible for anything they do and dogs must be confined, on a leash at all times, fenced in, cannot bark ever, but cats can sing 3AM in the morning....gezzwiz. I always enjoy reading Elana comments, please do not change your style, its you!!


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I think your neighbors who let there dogs do that are also irresponsible...I always pick up my dogs poop....I also don't let them go in peoples front yards


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

I was getting rain puddles forming where the cats are digging right next to the foundation of my house!


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BobSD said:


> LOLOL, This is one heck of thread, would have ended abruptly had not "Big Red" come on the scene. Speaking of "CATS" my neighbor has three of the little buggers, and they go and come where ever they please. I had to spend days of my free time to relandscape next to my house, they kept digging in the ground doing there thing. I bought a new boat, and they thought it was their plaything!lol I got scratches up the cuszoo all over the highly polished fiberglass. They sleep on board during the nights now. This rule that cats can go any where and not be responsible for anything they do and dogs must be confined, on a leash at all times, fenced in, cannot bark ever, but cats can sing 3AM in the morning....gezzwiz. I always enjoy reading Elana comments, please do not change your style, its you!!



LOL..that is another thing I got on my mom about...they live on a lake and everyone has boats..my mom told me that one cat was getting into the neighbors boat to sleep and she felt bad but didn't know how to stop him...well duh mom....if I was her neighbor I would have been livid!


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> "Why is that such a concern first of all when cats bury their poop? We have neighbors that walk their dogs and let their dogs go to the bathroom in everyones front lawn."
> 
> Two wrongs do NOT make a right. I do not like digging up cat sh*t in my garden. My cat does not eliminate anywhere but in her box and I always pick up after my dogs.
> 
> I own dogs and a cat. If my cat goes outdoors I go with her and she is not allowed to wander. In this way she can be happy AND safe.


I wasnt saying its right. I was saying its different. This country is a big place.. you cant expect everything to be the same everywhere. I happen to live in a town where it is not overrun by stray cats. I also live in a town where everyone has 6 foot block walls surrounding their tiny backyards.

My cats go in my backyard, and they will walk along the block wall and sit out front. My cats dont go in the neighbors backyard and yes I do know this for a fact because they dont go outside when Im not home. They go outside sometimes in the afternoon, sit in my backyard or come along the front yard and sit in the driveway.



pugmom said:


> I think your neighbors who let there dogs do that are also irresponsible...I always pick up my dogs poop....I also don't let them go in peoples front yards


exactly. I wasnt saying its right. When i walk my dogs I dont even let them walk in peoples yards.


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

yeah I just got ride of 4 that thought the underneith of my house was thier hangout/litterbox I am allergic to cat pee and don't think I should have to spend $100.00 on ER visits because I have a sinus infection because people think thier cats are more happy outside.............it's just like any other animal you get and bring home to live with you and should be treated as such.It's your responsability.........


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Cats get up on cars, boats, houses. They leave prints, scratches, even feces. They dig, they scratch. If my little dogs went around the neighborhood doing only this, I can only imagine the consequences.

If you think your cats only run the risk of getting run over by a car when they're out and about, consider the deadly poisons they may be exposed to such as rat poison or antifreeze. Your neighbors may not mind your cats, but you don't know that they are always looking out for them. I can't imagine anyone who truly loves their pets wanting to take such a risk when they could give their cats freedom safely with an enclosure or (for some cats) a leash.


I lived in Glendale and several of the surrounding cities and know for a fact that there are PLENTY of strays.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

SpudFan said:


> 4dogs3cats have any of your cat's had their ears clipped? (ala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap-Neuter-Return)
> 
> We had that happen in our neighborhood and lets just say there where a few pretty unhappy cat owners.


Well theyre going to waste their time neutering a cat that has already been neutered


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> I wasnt saying its right. I was saying its different. This country is a big place.. you cant expect everything to be the same everywhere. I happen to live in a town where it is not overrun by stray cats. I also live in a town where everyone has 6 foot block walls surrounding their tiny backyards.
> 
> My cats go in my backyard, and they will walk along the block wall and sit out front. My cats dont go in the neighbors backyard and yes I do know this for a fact because they dont go outside when Im not home. They go outside sometimes in the afternoon, sit in my backyard or come along the front yard and sit in the driveway.
> 
> ...


poop is poop its not different at all......I'm sorry but I thought you said you didn't keep them out of others yards...I thought I read that back a few posts..when I asked about it...


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

you said you have a dog door do you close it everyday when your not there.......


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I feel like some people treat cats like some people treat little dogs......the ones who let little dogs get away with murder because they are small and cute!...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> My neighbors indoor/outdoor cat has been pooping in my yard...I have enough poop to pick up with three dogs, why is this ok? And some animal tore a hole in my screen trying to get into my house last night...I'll give the neighbor cats the benefit of the doubt until I know for sure it wasn't wildlife, but my goodness, *indoor or outdoor, I don't even care, but cats need to be contained on their owners property just like dogs.*


My thoughts exactly.  I have very strong feelings on this subject.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

SpudFan said:


> But they will be clipped anyway to show that they are neutered then.


Are you 100% positive that they practice that in Glendale Arizona?



pugmom said:


> poop is poop its not different at all......I'm sorry but I thought you said you didn't keep them out of others yards...I thought I read that back a few posts..when I asked about it...


I did say I dont keep them out of other peoples yards.. but they dont go in other peoples yards. peoples yards are enclosed by 6 feet cement block walls, and while the cats CAN jump them, they prefer to stay in our yard



sw_df27 said:


> you said you have a dog door do you close it everyday when your not there.......


That would defeat the purpose of a dog door. No I dont close it when I am not home, but when Im at work my fiance ishome and he said they sleep all day on top of my dresser



pugmom said:


> I feel like some people treat cats like some people treat little dogs......the ones who let little dogs get away with murder because they are small and cute!...


Well I hardly feel like I am letting my cats get away with murder. I know where they go. If they went into other peoples yards and dug stuff up, that would beone thing, But my cats hanging out in my backyard and in the front yard, to me is no big deal.

Agree to disagree I suppose. To each his own.

I can tell you this though, if Miss Kitty had been an indoor/outdoor cat too, she would still be alive right now. Oh well.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> Are you 100% positive that they practice that in Glendale Arizona?
> 
> 
> I did say I dont keep them out of other peoples yards.. but they dont go in other peoples yards. peoples yards are enclosed by 6 feet cement block walls, and while the cats CAN jump them, they prefer to stay in our yard
> ...


That comment was not directed at you 4dogs....its the people whom let there cats walk on cars, poop in yards, dig up gardens..etc....like my mom


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

SpudFan said:


> Nope. I don't have a cat anymore. But I think the real question is how lucky do you feel?


If something happens to my cat, sure I'll be very sad.

But just as dogs cant be happy being inside of a house their entire life, neither can my cats.

And my cats are doing the same thing outside that they do inside. My cats do not act like your average cat. My cats come, sit, when told to. They dont meow like... ever.. theyre neutered so they dont mark. They sit on my property 99% of the time. When I walk out front, sometimes Mittens comes from next door, in front of their garage, but I'm telling you they dont cause a neusience.. why are you insisting that they are?


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## sw_df27 (Feb 22, 2008)

so you are saying that your cats are never left home alone at all 100% of the time? You and your fiancee never go somewhere together? The fact is your being irresponsable with you cat just because you think it's happier being indoor outdoor cat. You can't argue the fact that your cats can wonder into other peoples yards that's irresponsable.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pugmom said:


> That comment was not directed at you 4dogs....its the people whom let there cats walk on cars, poop in yards, dig up gardens..etc....like my mom


lol its cool. No hard feelings.


I choose to let my cats go outside. I kow that it isnt as safe as them staying inside. But to he honest.. Staying inside was not safe for Miss Kitty.

If my cats were becoming the steretypical outside cats that everyone hates, of course I would keep them inside.

But I know my cats stay on my property or close to it. They use my litterbox inside, and they spend most of their day inside. My cats are the most loving cats anyone has ever met. Even people who LOVE cats and hate dogs, like my cats better than their cats.. I used to not let them go outside, for 2 years actually. But then when I started I saw they love home so much they stay as close as possible, just while enjoying some fresh air


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I think the point most people are trying to make is not that you cant let a cat outside ever ...but if you cant keep them contained in your yard 100% of the time and supervised just like at dog and safe...THEN they should not be outside at all....


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

sw_df27 said:


> so you are saying that your cats are never left home alone at all 100% of the time? You and your fiancee never go somewhere together? The fact is your being irresponsable with you cat just because you think it's happier being indoor outdoor cat. You can't argue the fact that your cats can wonder into other peoples yards that's irresponsable.


Oh I'm sure there are time where they are outside and I dont know it. But I also live in Arizona where its 110 degrees outside for the good majority of the year. Not prime outside time for longhaired cats. Most of the time Toby is asleep on top of the dryer or on my dresser, and Mittens is asleep on top of my dresser or on top of the fridge. I will leave for an hour or two, come home, and they are still in the exact same spot. If they are leaving when I leave and coming home and going to the same spot like that, than geez, the more power to em.

And no I dont think they are happier. I know they are happier.



SpudFan said:


> I haven't said that they are a nuisance. I don't know your cats at all. But then does a cat have to be nuisance for something to happen to it? I suppose dog's are easier to contain outdoors, cats are more independent, but then I am generalizing.


no of course not. Not all cats that get attacked by dogs are being nuisances. Or hit by cars etc. Cats are very independent. My cats know how to handle themselves... And there arent ANY strays in my neighborhood.



pugmom said:


> I think the point most people are trying to make is not that you cant let a cat outside ever ...but if you cant keep them contained in your yard 100% of the time and supervised just like at dog and safe...THEN they should not be outside at all....


no they arent in my yard 100% of the time. But theyre cats... they didnt use to live in houses.. is the argument that they are being nusiances.. or about them being safe?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> Oh I'm sure there are time where they are outside and I dont know it. But I also live in Arizona where its 110 degrees outside for the good majority of the year. Not prime outside time for longhaired cats. Most of the time Toby is asleep on top of the dryer or on my dresser, and Mittens is asleep on top of my dresser or on top of the fridge. I will leave for an hour or two, come home, and they are still in the exact same spot. If they are leaving when I leave and coming home and going to the same spot like that, than geez, the more power to em.
> 
> And no I dont think they are happier. I know they are happier.
> 
> ...


Sorry I don't understand that part of your post...could you explain more 

its about both...nuisances and keep your pet safe ...both the responsibility of any pet owner...IMHO


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> my cats are indoor/outdoor as well. They stay within our block.. and are usually sitting in front of the neighbors garage lol.





4dogs3cats said:


> If my cats were becoming the steretypical outside cats that everyone hates, of course I would keep them inside.
> 
> But I know my cats stay on my property or close to it. They use my litterbox inside, and they spend most of their day inside.


You'll do what you choose to do, but I happen to love cats and have two myself. Mine are indoors at all times because I believe in being a responsible pet owner and a good neighbor, so I wouldn't allow my cats to roam any more than I would allow my dog to roam.

But I do feel compelled to clarify that your cats are the stereotypical cat that I hate, the unleashed cat allowed to roam outside. You think your cats stay on your property but you know that isn't always true. You believe they use the litterbox only, but since you allow them out unsupervised, you can't say that for a fact but rather as an assumption you choose to make. You don't know that they've never urinated or defecated on someone else's property or been destructive in some other way. There is no way for you to know this unless you are with them and watching 100% of the time when they are outside and you've already said that's not the case.

If someone were allowing their dog to behave this way would you not be calling them out on it? It's irresponsible pet ownership in every way--towards the cats and towards the community you live in.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, this thread sure went haywire. 

Doesn't anyone here train their cats? Mine walk on leashes, ride in the car and Naughty will actually ask to be tied out to the front steps for an hour or so (unless there is snow.. if he sees snow he won't go out and he blames me). While Naughty is out, his buddy, Curly sits indoors and watches and comes and gets me when Naughty wants to come in or if there is any trouble in the horizon. 

Oliver sits, comes when called and retrieves better than the dog. He brings me his leash to go for a walk outside. 

Ah well, this is all gotten sort of way the heck off topic. LOL
If it were a poll I come down on the side of cats indoors only unless on a leash or in a cat run. But then for awhile I showed CFA American Shorthair cats and titled a few so I have a different place on this whole cat thing. 

Carry on. LOL


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

My current house is unsuitable but, when I move my cats will have an outside yard for themselves. 

Also, Lucky never leaves the house, unless it's with me. Growing up I'd take her for off leash walks with me and the labs. 

You can certainly train a cat to walk on leash one is so against cats being holed up in the house.

Lucky now is old, and even though she could go outside anytime she wants, she has never left the house in many years.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Doesn't anyone here train their cats? Mine walk on leashes, ride in the car and Naughty will actually ask to be tied out to the front steps for an hour or so (unless there is snow.. if he sees snow he won't go out and he blames me). While Naughty is out, his buddy, Curly sits indoors and watches and comes and gets me when Naughty wants to come in or if there is any trouble in the horizon.
> 
> Oliver sits, comes when called and retrieves better than the dog. He brings me his leash to go for a walk outside.
> 
> ...


I'm starting it with my young one. I bought a leash and harness for her because she kept trying to get out. I'm trying to get her used to it slowly, she seems afraid when it's on....they do come when called and the older one knows some words, mostly food related, but no tricks or commands or anything.


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

So does everyone disapprove of barn cats? Because they do a pretty important job around the farm.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Bottom line concerning cats roaming vs. dogs roaming - it is illegal for dogs to roam - it is not illegal for cats to roam. For one thing, dogs are much more of a potential problem than cats. I don't think I've ever heard of a cat bringing down a child on the street or taking out livestock.

As far as cats pooping in gardens - you know I'm not a big fan of that either. I am also not a big fan of cat pee on my front yard bushes. But such is life. I bet there is more than cat poop in the average garden. 

And if you have cats visiting your yard, you should be grateful. They are probably keeping the rodent population at bay. 

BarclaysMom - our barn cats are lifesavers. Their smell alone deters rodents. They don't even have to hunt. And my mom protects them at night by keeping them locked up in the barn so coyotes can't get them. All of our dogs (7) live in peace with the cats because all of our dogs have been trained that chasing living things is STRICTLY prohibited.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

BarclaysMom said:


> So does everyone disapprove of barn cats? Because they do a pretty important job around the farm.


Comparing apples to oranges.


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

True story, the fact my neighbors could care less if there cat scratched my car or boat, or digs holes in areas that I wish they did not, I still do not have the heart to hurt the cats in any way, but there human owners thats another story. Any ways their male cat is a excellent hunter and these neighburs have a dogy door and the cats know how to use it smart cats!, So this male kills a squirrel, and I see him carrying his prize back home into the house through the dogy door, and the owners are at work. So bad me, I do not say anything and after several days they smell something coming from under their bed. Yep a rotting dead squirrel, that was not the worst part the house was loaded with fleas, some ticks. So what goes around come around!


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

RBark said:


> Comparing apples to oranges.


Why, what's the difference? They are all cats. Barn cats have to deal with coyotes and wandering dogs and they range into the neighbor's fields and get chased. 

I consider ours to be barn cats that sleep in the house. Now that they go outside I realize how much I need their help to keep the rodent population down and out of our feed storage areas.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

¿Wonder where the OP went? 

(I thought comparing fruit to fruit was legitimate.)


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

kelliope said:


> Bottom line concerning cats roaming vs. dogs roaming - it is illegal for dogs to roam - it is not illegal for cats to roam. For one thing, dogs are much more of a potential problem than cats. I don't think I've ever heard of a cat bringing down a child on the street or taking out livestock.
> 
> As far as cats pooping in gardens - you know I'm not a big fan of that either. I am also not a big fan of cat pee on my front yard bushes. But such is life. I bet there is more than cat poop in the average garden.
> 
> ...


my point is that maybe is should be....and no cats don't kill children but they can carry rabies and other nasty diseases ...they still can inflict nasty bites and scratches....and as to live stock...what about chickens, ducks, rabbits....I'm sure many of them have lost there lives to a cat....

and cat pee and poop in my yard is NOT life...not my life..and its very selfish to think that its ok to destroy my yard, garden, bushes w/your cats pee/poop and chalk it up to "thats life"......I;m sure you would not appreciate me saying thats life after my dog takes a big steaming poo on your driveway?.....

Grateful?...my aunt fanny!!



BarclaysMom said:


> Why, what's the difference? They are all cats. Barn cats have to deal with coyotes and wandering dogs and they range into the neighbor's fields and get chased.
> 
> I consider ours to be barn cats that sleep in the house. Now that they go outside I realize how much I need their help to keep the rodent population down and out of our feed storage areas.


as long as your barn cat stays in your barn...not in my yard or the road.. I'm fine w/that....

I feel like real barn cats are working animals that just like hunting dogs are going to have more risk associated with there jobs, I feel like most people whom have barns have enough land to keep there cats on..maybe I' wrong


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

First of all, I personally, don't even have a cat (my mom does) so I am pretty sure my cat isn't messing up your precious yard. If I had a cat and lived in the burbs it would be an inside only cat - mainly because of people's cruelty and callousness toward cats.

Secondly, there is no leash law for cats. There is a leash law for dogs. And as far as livestock, most chickens/rabbits are prey for much more than cats and are kept penned for their own protection. So predation from cats isn't really an issue.

I have had people let their dog crap in my yard. Big deal. Do I like it? No, but it isn't the end of the world either. You can't control everything. I am sure you get bird crap in your yard too. And dust might fly in also.  I only get excited when living things are in danger of or are being hurt.

As far as cats inflicting bites and scratches - please. I have lived 41 years on this earth and have yet to encounter a cat that ran out and attacked. Cats will bite or scratch to defend themselves, however. 

There are far worse things in life than a cat wandering through one's yard.

Yeesh.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I hardly think that people would give the same reaction to a dog roaming the neighborhood that they do a cat. Give me a break.

My neighborhood is safe. I know it is. My cats dont leave my property. Toby doesnt even like going outside, so he is BARELY outside. If he is he is laying on my backyard patio furniture. One time he was out front and it started raining and he ended up going under a neighbors bush that was low to the ground. Mittens enjoys going outside. Im not going to hinder him being able to go outside.

Oh well.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

kelliope said:


> First of all, I personally, don't even have a cat (my mom does) so I am pretty sure my cat isn't messing up your precious yard. If I had a cat and lived in the burbs it would be an inside only cat - mainly because of people's cruelty and callousness toward cats.
> 
> Secondly, there is no leash law for cats. There is a leash law for dogs. And as far as livestock, most chickens/rabbits are prey for much more than cats and are kept penned for their own protection. So predation from cats isn't really an issue.
> 
> ...


No one said it was the WORST THING IN LIFE to have a cat wandering though my yard.OR said there was a leash law for cats..where are you getting this?????..but if your going to bring your less then respectful attitude to the discussion ...then get your facts correct..

....if a cat is sick or injured there is every reason to believe it could attack....I in my 28 years on this earth have been attacked by a cat....cleaning out a shed..it got spooked ran and jump up my leg, held on and "rabbit kicked" me a few times then ran off...I had some pretty nasty gashes on my calf....all ending in an ER visit

No I cant control everything..but I can control my animals...why should I not expect the same from you?


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

kelliope said:


> First of all, I personally, don't even have a cat (my mom does) so I am pretty sure my cat isn't messing up your precious yard. If I had a cat and lived in the burbs it would be an inside only cat - mainly because of people's cruelty and callousness toward cats.
> 
> Secondly, there is no leash law for cats. There is a leash law for dogs. And as far as livestock, most chickens/rabbits are prey for much more than cats and are kept penned for their own protection. So predation from cats isn't really an issue.
> 
> ...


If my cat was out attacking people and biting and scratching them I wouldnt WANT him to come home!

My cat goes outside a couple hours a day. The only time I saw him enter my neighbors BACKyard was when the dogs were playing and running and he jumped the wall into their backyard.. and then right back up and around to our front yard. I have a very large bush in our front yard that my cats LOVE to tunnel under and hang out in. I have found strange dogs dropping in my front yard. Ugh big deal. Im an animal lover myself and things just dont bother me like they do other people.

I know not everyone is like me. And again... its not that large of a risk to me


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> If my cat was out attacking people and biting and scratching them I wouldnt WANT him to come home!
> 
> My cat goes outside a couple hours a day. The only time I saw him enter my neighbors BACKyard was when the dogs were playing and running and he jumped the wall into their backyard.. and then right back up and around to our front yard. I have a very large bush in our front yard that my cats LOVE to tunnel under and hang out in. I have found strange dogs dropping in my front yard. Ugh big deal. Im an animal lover myself and things just dont bother me like they do other people.
> 
> I know not everyone is like me. And again... its not that large of a risk to me


4dogs-I understand that your cats do what they do..and you have no problem w/strange poo in your yard....that's your prerogative..I'm not saying your cats are doing this...but there are plenty of other people whom have posted saying they do have cats doing it in their neighborhood...I don't think your cats are most likely a nuisance...but more worried about cars, kids, other animals causing them harm...I am animal lover of all kinds...that is why I don't want cats outside because I do like them.

I have a lovely old lady for a neighbor...she lives alone and is retired..she loves to garden and her yard is always beautiful....she spends about 3 or 4 hours a day working on it... its her hobby.....I would love for you to go up to her and say ....oh well ...I don't care that my animal defecates in your PRECIOUS yard....get over it!...how is that not totally disrespectful??????


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Pugmom, I bring up leash law for cats because you were asking 4dogs3cats if she would let her dogs roam free.

As I said before, bottom line - THAT is comparing apples to oranges. There is no law against letting your cats wander. There is a law against letting your dogs wander.

So neighbors of yours who let their cats out are doing nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. They are within the confines of the law.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Thier piss stinks,i hate opening my door to the smell of fresh cats piss.
They obviously couldnt give a crap that 3 dogs that could tear them to pieces live here.

I dont hate cats though,grew up with cats.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

*Apples and oranges are both fruits!!!*


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

kelliope said:


> Pugmom, I bring up leash law for cats because you were asking 4dogs3cats if she would let her dogs roam free.
> 
> As I said before, bottom line - THAT is comparing apples to oranges. There is no law against letting your cats wander. There is a law against letting your dogs wander.
> 
> So neighbors of yours who let their cats out are doing nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. They are within the confines of the law.


never said they were breaking the law

.......but I believe if they are going onto other people personal property then yes that is breaking the law....I will have to do a quick look up to check the laws in my area....


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pugmom said:


> 4dogs-I understand that your cats do what they do..and you have no problem w/strange poo in your yard....that's your prerogative..I'm not saying your cats are doing this...but there are plenty of other people whom have posted saying they do have cats doing it in their neighborhood...
> 
> I have a lovely old lady for a neighbor...she lives alone and is retired..she loves to garden and her yard is always beautiful....she spends about 3 or 4 hours a day working on it... its her hobby.....I would love for you to go up to her and say ....oh well ...I don't care that my animal defecates in your PRECIOUS yard....get over it!...how is that not totally disrespectful??????


If my cat was doing these things, and believe me I would know.. because when I walk outside and call him I know exactly where he comes from... if he did these, as a compassionate person I would keep him inside. If I got even one complaint, I would keep him inside. I know my cats are not acting like stereotypical cats in my neighborhood.. until they do.. they get the freedom they deserve.


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

kelliope said:


> So neighbors of yours who let their cats out are doing nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. They are within the confines of the law.


I don't think anyone has said letting a cat wander is illegal, we're saying it's irresponsible.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

harrise said:


> *Apples and oranges are both fruits!!!*



heee heee heee! I knew that would get your attention!


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

harrise said:


> *Apples and oranges are both fruits!!!*


lol. Oh harrise... you so funnay


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Heh, I'm bored. Refreshing this page is the only entertaining thing at the moment. (Maybe I'll go sew something. )


... Carry on...


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

There are areas where they have leash laws for cats. My nephew lived in a trailer park and all cats had to be indoors or on leash or tied up when outside. I am sure there are other areas where this is common. I have a barn cat, he is a neutered male and has never been in a house. He is healthy, has had all his shots and does an excellent job of keeping rodents out of the barn. He has food and water in the barn, has a cat door and can come and go as he pleases.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Barn cats are different in that they're working and I have no problems with them if they stay on your property. I do find it very annoying and rude that people allow their cats to go in my yard. There are cat leash laws in some places and I hope more places will follow suit. I don't care if your cat is in your yard, but I don't want them in mine! And yes, we did have a neighbor's cat that decided to camp out on my porch and it bit my sister. 

And just because it's not life or death having to put up with a neighbor's cat pooping in your garden, walking on your cars, scratching you, tormenting your dogs through the window, etc, but it certainly doesn't mean I should have to deal with that. If you were responsible, you wouldn't let your cat wander into my yard in the first place.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Barn cats are different in that they're working and I have no problems with them if they stay on your property. I do find it very annoying and rude that people allow their cats to go in my yard. There are cat leash laws in some places and I hope more places will follow suit. I don't care if your cat is in your yard, but I don't want them in mine! And yes, we did have a neighbor's cat that decided to camp out on my porch and it bit my sister.
> 
> And just because it's not life or death having to put up with a neighbor's cat pooping in your garden, walking on your cars, scratching you, tormenting your dogs through the window, etc, but it certainly doesn't mean I should have to deal with that. If you were responsible, you wouldn't let your cat wander into my yard in the first place.


Thank you laurelin...very well said ...exactly how I feel.


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## WhySoSerious? (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't know about you guys but I spent way too much money on my cat to let him roam and take the risk of losing him.

I didn't even want a cat but I wound up paying for adoption fees, shots, ear mite treatments and a ongoing list of other supplies and medical attention. I figure if I let him out and he runs off or gets plowed over by a car...well thats just a waste of money for me.

If other people don't mind taking the risk then they have the right imo but I'd rather the free range cats keep their fleas and disease out of my yard.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

You know, WhySoSerious, you just brought up one point that I hadn't thought of in years (since my last kitty died). My cats were indoor/outdoor but never left the yard. They just never did. They weren't the wandering type. Too pudgy I guess to get over the fence.

Anyway, one thing I hated was when other cats came into my yard and fought with my cats. That sucked! My cats were NOT the fighting type and were tormented in their own yard. Which I didn't appreciate at all. 

That alone would make me vote in favor of containment laws for cats (although the repercussions to cats would be devastating I am certain  ). But until such a law passes there isn't much I can do about it.

Thankfully I don't have a cat to worry about at the moment. And my mom lives on a large farm and any cat that comes in ususally ends up staying and joining the group!


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## WhySoSerious? (Oct 9, 2008)

kelliope said:


> You know, WhySoSerious, you just brought up one point that I hadn't thought of in years (since my last kitty died). My cats were indoor/outdoor but never left the yard. They just never did. They weren't the wandering type. Too pudgy I guess to get over the fence.
> 
> Anyway, one thing I hated was when other cats came into my yard and fought with my cats. That sucked! My cats were NOT the fighting type and were tormented in their own yard. Which I didn't appreciate at all.
> 
> ...


You had some good cats then kelliope.

I don't feel so bad keeping mine inside, since letting him run free range is what his last owners did and it almost cost him his life in the animal shelter.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

I agree. If I ever got a cat (and still lived in the city or the suburbs) I would most certainly keep it inside only.

I have no idea how I lucked out with my other kitties. I have no idea why they stayed in the yard. Well, except for the fact that I thought fat cats were cute (didn't realize the health implications) and kept them really pudgy.

I wouldn't do that to a new cat though. So inside it would stay.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

I have heard of folks calling AC because of cats roaming here...AC picks up the animal and sometimes it dont get a period of time for the animals family to find it..It is euthanized immediately, alot of times due to the shelter being too full.

So..Coming here got me looking for laws in my county. Lo and Behold..You can actually have charges brought against you if your cat is running free..

http://www.co.jackson.ms.us/DS/AnimalShelter.html


QUOTE...It is unlawful for any dog, cat, domesticated livestock, or any other owned animal to run at large upon the streets, alleys, or other public or private property not your own unless restrained by a leash or lead.

All domesticated animals must be SECURELY confined to your property.

Violations of any of the above laws may result in your animal being impounded, or charges being filed against you, or both.


Not to mention fines, fees, court costs...Scary.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

digits mama said:


> I have heard of folks calling AC because of cats roaming here...AC picks up the animal and sometimes it dont get a period of time for the animals family to find it..It is euthanized immediately, alot of times due to the shelter being too full.
> 
> So..Coming here got me looking for laws in my county. Lo and Behold..You can actually have charges brought against you if your cat is running free..
> 
> ...


thanks for posting that...I was going to try to look up some for my area..but keep getting references for livestock only..my google powers are not very honed


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Actually, I am aware that there are some cities/counties that have containment laws for cats. They are few and far between - though that trend may be changing.

My main point is that until such a law passes, people letting their cats out are within their rights. The only way you can change that is by changing the laws. And I don't think you can get on people about doing what is legal.

If there is a law in your area, obviously that is a whole different kettle of fish (see Harrise - I'm not talking fruit here!)


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Look at that! We have leash laws too!



> Leash
> 
> Maricopa County’s leash law prohibits you from allowing your dog to run at large outside your property at any time. Your dog must be confined to your home or property, either inside the home or within an enclosed yard. When you take your dog outside of its confined area, it must be restrained on a leash that is no longer than six feet in length. Keeping your dog on a leash also makes good sense. Your dog will be safer and less likely to be hit by a car.


Oh.. hmm... thats only for dogs..

http://www.maricopa.gov/Pets/FieldEnforcement/Laws.aspx


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

My point ..just because its not illegal doesn't make it less irresponsible IMO...

Same way I feel about motorcycle helmet laws....its legal in Myrtle beach to ride w/out a helmet, of course this is a personal choice....but to me not wearing a helmet is irresponsible.....but no not illegal


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

And if they catch my cat.... they arent going to tip his ear. They are more likely to bring him to the shelter. He is not a FERAL cat.



> After many years of study, MCACC has decided to take a proactive stand in the way we believe feral cats should be handled and controlled. The “Trap, Neuter and Return” (TNR) of feral cats is a proven, humane method of feral cat population control. Through TNR, cats are humanely trapped, sterilized and released back into the environment in which they were living. Cats that have been sterilized are ear tipped (one centimeter is removed from the tip of the left ear) to identify that they are *part of a managed colony*.


http://www.maricopa.gov/Pets/FieldEnforcement/FeralCats.aspx


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

I wasnt trying to be a snot...I was just showing what I found today. I have a cat..That is indoor and outdoor. I can actually say, She stays in my yard. But after reading this, I have a change of heart. So..Please..dont be a snot.




And Jenn...I did find this.

QUOTE FROM YOUR REFERENCE....MCACC is concerned about the health, safety and welfare of the cats in our communities, as well as the public’s health. We have over 20 years of documented proof that traditional ways of dealing with feral cats don’t work. The “catch and kill” method of population control (trap a cat, bring it to a shelter, ask that the cat be euthanized), has not reduced the number of feral cats. The cat may be gone, but now there is room for another cat to move in.

Whos to say....A neighbor has had enough of your cat. Decided to deem your cat feral.. Can request for it to be euthanized. Not good..Not worth that risk..


AND....my post wasnt directed at anyone here. Dont take things so literally unless you see your name in my response. K?...


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

harrise said:


> *Apples and oranges are both fruits!!!*


wait a minute. i thought they was veggies. lol j/k hunn good point tho. im surprised about this thread. i go to work on the truck a bit and i come back and there's 5 new pages. lol


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

pugmom said:


> My point ..just because its not illegal doesn't make it less irresponsible IMO...
> 
> Same way I feel about motorcycle helmet laws....its legal in Myrtle beach to ride w/out a helmet, of course this is a personal choice....but to me not wearing a helmet is irresponsible.....but no not illegal


Right.. I feel the same way.. But if Joe Schmo wants to ride without a helmet and he isnt bothering me.. than who cares... if my cat is bothering them.. Let them come talk to me about it and I will GLADLY keep him inside.

My neighborhood is a VERY nice neighborhood with a homeowners association. Yeah.. you have to pay monthly fees JUST to live there. They FINE you if your lawn is too long. They FINE You if a car is parked in the street... If someone was bothered by my cat sitting in front of my house... they would tell me.



digits mama said:


> I wasnt trying to be a snot...I was just showing what I found today. I have a cat..That is indoor and outdoor. I can actually say, She stays in my yard. But after reading this, I have a change of heart. So..Please..dont be a snot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


V V V- I wasnt being a snot! I was joking around! I am so sorry! You are one of the last people I would EVER be a snot to!

I did read that too. It made me think though.. my moms cats are 8 years old.. have been outdoor cats since they were 2.. Wouldnt it be awesome if they lived to be 56!!

Please dont hate me V because I just love you so!


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

your fault "RED". We might call this the "Puppy, Kitty, and dog forum!


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

BobSD said:


> your fault "RED". We might call this the "Puppy, Kitty, and dog forum!


*sticks hands up in the air, above head*

wasnt me......


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

digits mama said:


> Whos to say....A neighbor has had enough of your cat. Decided to deem your cat feral.. Can request for it to be euthanized. Not good..Not worth that risk..


I assume somewhere in that process they would scan it for a chip and call the owner, who would probably have to pay a fee to get it out of hock. 

I assume everyone chips their cats as well as their dogs, right? Ours are.


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

BarclaysMom said:


> I assume somewhere in that process they would scan it for a chip and call the owner, who would probably have to pay a fee to get it out of hock.
> 
> I assume everyone chips their cats as well as their dogs, right? Ours are.



i chip my dog. we have a few barn cats. theyre mainly strays that just hang out. so i cant pet them or nothin, they just keep the barns mice free. and in return they get a place to stay, clean water, and a nice bail of hay for bed.

as long as they stay off the cars and trucks and keep theyre pawprints to themselfs weve come to an understanding. lmao


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Whoops V I thought you quoted the part about indoor cats living 7 years longer.
If you goa little further in what you posted, they no longer euthanize.. they trap...neuter...release... they bring the cat back where it came from.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I don't know anyone with a MC cat.....but that makes sense to me to have it done ....even if you don't let them outside...just in case they bolted out the door or something

I care.....I don't like to see people die .

The point was legal vs irresponsible...not whether you care what other people do. Laws don't always cover moral responsibility..they are just guidelines


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

but some cats are too mean to catch. i know mine are. the only cat that lets me or anyone pet her is a cutie pie named tye. but she dont like to be tooken to the vet in a car ride let alone be picked up. 

the last time she went to the vet she got into a fight with another cat that hurt her neck. boy did she throw a fit in the carrier durring the car ride.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I also got my cats plain breakaway collars.

Not for identification persay but just so people know they arent strays. Because my cats are very pretty cats and if they do go off my property for a long time, I want honest people to not steal them!

Oh here they are by the way
Toby McWhiskerface








Here he is when he came back from the rain... not a happy boy

















And here is Mittens MeOw- king of the castle









TBH I wasnt happy when Mittens first learned how to use the doggy door. I dont WANT my cats outside. I side with a LOT of you on the reasons why cats shouldnt be outside. I assessed the situation, and can see my cats like being at home.. just outside.. Like V I know my cats stay in my yard.. if they were ever to start wandering.. I dont think I would let them outside. I would, of course, be too scared that something would happen to them. But they truly are happy when they go outside, and they dont roam. I wouldnt want other peoples cats peeing or pooping in MY yard, so why would I want the same to happen to someone else? I like that my cats are such homebodys.. Toby NEVER goes outside.. since he got caught in the rain.. hes too poofy and it took him too long to dry I guess. Thats part of the reason I built up my cat room the way it is.. to make sure they also enjoy being inside and a lot of the time thats where I find them.. (besides on my dresser lol) is relaxing in their cat room


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## westiefamily (Oct 5, 2008)

I am very sorry to hear about your cat. PLease remember that although your dogs are good and have been with you since pups, ther are still pack animals. from the way you described the scene they were doing what was innate. 

If they are not snipped please do so ASAP. Also having this many dogs this size around young ones should be reevaluated.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

westiefamily said:


> Also having this many dogs this size around young ones should be reevaluated.


Ugh. It depends on how you as a person handle the situation/training and manage environments. I have over 300 pounds of dog. It is not a danger to any person as young as infant. This person may not have the proper foundation for what is going on, but to generalize "this many this size" just isn't correct. Throwing it together with the standard neuter comment makes it sound like big dogs are more dangerous... ¿?¿?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

One problem we've had with strange cats as well (just was thinking of this thread while I was walking the dog) was when Nikki was young she was actually ATTACKED by loose cats several times. Once when she was on a leash and on a walk and once in my grandmother's yard. The cat in my grandmother's yard belonged to the neighbor and jumped the fence to start a fight with my puppy while both me and my dad were outside! Nikki ended up with a big gash right by her eye. The cat ended up biting my father who was trying to pull them apart.


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## KcCrystal (Sep 12, 2008)

We have a serious issue with Ferals in our area, so once in awhile a stray kitten will wander into the backyard and Zeus, our GSD will unfortuntly will kill them. Sassy caught & killed one of the large male tomcats and got a gash in the face.. I consider the ferals to be like any other critter. If they get close enough to our dogs, they will be killed. Squirrels, bunnies, raccoons, oposum, cats, all are fair game. I know it's sad, but the trap, neuter release program in my area hasn't worked. Because as soon as one batch becomes sterlie, some one will dump the latest batch of unwanted kittens, and it starts all over again.


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## Learned (Sep 19, 2008)

Jewels I'm sorry for your loss- :aww:

Wow Elana..age still doesn't give you the right to post like you did.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

^^ [to KcCrystal] That makes me really sad. Couldn't you put your dog in a run or supervise your dog?

My cats have always been indoor cats. Since I don't want them outside, I work very hard to be sure they never get there, because they'd probably try to make a break for it any time they could. I do hope to have a cat run one day when I have a house in the suburbs.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Bailey08 said:


> ^^ [to KcCrystal] That makes me really sad. Couldn't you put your dog in a run or supervise your dog?


I'm not KcCrystal, but I wanted to comment on this. While I certainly would make the effort to keep any killings at a low/non-existent number, I do not feel it is fair to expect someone to place their dog in a run because they (the cat owners) either aren't concerned with their wandering cats or simply aren't putting any effort into keeping the animal out of other people's yard. I'm sorry, but for someone who is still working to afford a house and yard - I am certainly not going to take the heat from another owner because they allowed their cat to enter a yard with my prey driven dog and the cat ended up hurt/dead. I earned that yard, it's my yard, not anyone else's land to free run their cats.

Now once again, I WOULD make the effort to prevent any killings I could. I would NOT however, take away my dog's free run time because someone else is being irresponsible.

ETA: I forgot to add that ideally your dog should be under your control so that you could call him off situations like that. My point was that the fault still, IMO, falls with the cat owner and not someone who was simply playing in the yard with their dog.


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## KcCrystal (Sep 12, 2008)

Sorry, but I live on 4 acres, and I can't watch them 24-7-365. I really try to control the cat population by trapping. But there are times when I can't keep them from wandering into our full fenced yard. 

Yes, Zeus is an "Outdoor" dog. He hasn't been in the house for 3yrs. when we bring him in he paces the floor and wants back out to his space. At 9pm we move him into his Kennel which is in our breezeway and out of the elements. I know I'm a "cruel person" for having him outside. But every day we walk 2miles, play frisbee, and soccer. He also plays with my Shar-pei mix. He has a full bucket of water, a huge doghouse with blankets & straw. Why force him to live in the house when he isn't happy at all??? 

If people would stop dumping cats & kittens, I'd be happy. If I could solve the problem with out the dogs killing them, I would. But I can't stop the outcome of human stupidity. I like cats, I really do. I do not like Feral cats, the ones who will never be pets, and don't have the right to be on our property.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

KcCrystal said:


> We have a serious issue with Ferals in our area, so once in awhile a stray kitten will wander into the backyard and Zeus, our GSD will unfortuntly will kill them... I consider the ferals to be like any other critter. If they get close enough to our dogs, they will be killed. Squirrels, bunnies, raccoons, oposum, cats, all are fair game...


From the post I was referring to in my prior post. I think this may be a somewhat different situation than you are thinking of, or suggesting, Dakota Spirit.

I appreciate that it's not easy to "fix" this problem, and I tried not to be judgmental about it but asked if it was possible to put the dog in a run or supervise. It's not the dog's fault or the feral cats' fault. It just makes me sad that animals are killed when there may be things humans can do to prevent it. I do think that if you live in an area with a great number of feral cats, and you know that if one gets into your yard, it will be killed, it seems to me that there are steps you can, and perhaps should, take to prevent it. I don't see how it's all that different than knowing that your neighbor's little dog gets out all the time and it can get under your fence, where your dog is contained in your yard.

ETA: Dakota, I think you edited, and KC, you posted, while I was taking my time typing...


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

I, too, feel bad for the cat, and not-so-much the owner. As was said, it was the owner's fault. Ignorance about what could happen is no excuse. =/

At first, I felt the way some of you do, about Elana's post. But what she said was absolutely true, and there's no reason to sugar-coat the words. If the OP couldn't handle the truth, she shouldn't have those dogs OR kids. =/

About cats...I feel the same way a lot of you do: cats should NOT be roaming, free (unless they are barn cats with a purpose). I'm all for training your cat to walk on a leash. My young neutered male, who I've had since he was a week old, is trained to wear the harness (haven't really worked on actually getting him to walk). He doesn't like going outside that much. He CLINGS to me when we walk out the door, and hates getting in the car, as well. He and the other cats really couldn't care less about going outside. They're happy inside. And it's easy to keep the cat from getting too bored inside; play with them, make things interesting. Ownership is all about keeping the animal happy and healthy, right? It's about making sure the animal lives life to the fullest. Letting it get hit by a car, or chased down and mauled by dogs, or some other equally horrific ending at an earlier age doesn't quite fit "live life to the fullest" in my book.

I'm glad we have cat leash laws here. Unfortunately, I haven't seen or heard of many people who actually follow the laws. We had a neighbor who had a cat (keyword, HAD). The cat killed several animals (birds, squirells) in our backyard. It was heartbreaking for me. True, animals kill other animals for food, but when the cat HAS a home, it should be eating THERE, not taking food from the native wildlife, like the dwindling population of foxes and owls in the area. Not to mention, the diseases and such cats can carry. Even if you deworm and use preventatives, there's still a window of opportunity for some parasites to get through and infest other animals.

Oh, that neighbor's cat I mentioned? Died a couple of years ago. Got ran over by a car. I always thought the area was pretty safe. Not a lot of traffic, people were fairly friendly and kind. The neighbor's poor kids were devastated. They should have been; it was their parents' fault the cat died.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Bailey08 said:


> From the post I was referring to in my prior post. I think this may be a somewhat different situation than you are thinking of, or suggesting, Dakota Spirit.
> 
> I appreciate that it's not easy to "fix" this problem, and I tried not to be judgmental about it and asked if it was possible to put the dog in a run or supervise. It's not the dog's fault or the feral cats' fault. It just makes me sad that animals are killed when there may be things humans can do to prevent it. I do think that if you live in an area with a great number of feral cats, and you know that if one gets into your yard, it will be killed, it seems to me that there are steps you can, and perhaps should, take to prevent it. *I don't see how it's all that different than knowing that your neighbor's little dog gets out all the time and it can get under your fence, where your dog is contained in your yard*.


Sorry yes, I missed the fact that they were ferals and not someone's pet cat.

However, the last line of your post is basically the kind of situation I would be refering to with my OP. Yes it would be unfortunate if that little dog was killed, no I would not stand by and watch my dog do so, BUT it is not MY responsibility to watch out for my neighbor's pets. My dogs do not need (or at least SHOULD not) to be regulated in their own home because someone else can't keep control of their animals and keep them on their land. I think you are putting the responsibility on the wrong side of the fence. Or I may be misreading something...I _can_ understand why you feel the way you do. I just think the whole of responsibility still rests with the escapee's owner. Not anyone else at all.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Wow. I'm pretty shocked at how some so-called animal lovers don't care about the pain and suffering of animals that are not "theirs" and let their dogs kill them. Good grief. I can't imagine not having a love of all animals. Not just owned ones.

I am so done with this thread.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

kelliope said:


> Wow. I'm pretty shocked at how some so-called animal lovers don't care about the pain and suffering of animals that are not "theirs" and let their dogs kill them. Good grief. I can't imagine not having a love of all animals. Not just owned ones.
> 
> I am so done with this thread.


weren't you the person who jumped up my butt about being irritated if people let there cat in my yard and I should be grateful they are keeping down the rodent population?....what about the poor birds, mice, rats and squirrels????...where is your so called love for them in that post???


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Well, not to be crass...but if there are feral cats which are a problem and are over populating the area...it's probably a good thing to have a predator that keeps them somewhat in check. It's called nature.....


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

kelliope said:


> Wow. I'm pretty shocked at how some so-called animal lovers don't care about the pain and suffering of animals that are not "theirs" and let their dogs kill them.


[EMPHASIS]If my dogs kill a loose/feral cat, so be it. If my dogs kill my cat, they will soon join it.[/EMPHASIS]


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Sorry yes, I missed the fact that they were ferals and not someone's pet cat.
> 
> However, the last line of your post is basically the kind of situation I would be refering to with my OP. Yes it would be unfortunate if that little dog was killed, no I would not stand by and watch my dog do so, BUT it is not MY responsibility to watch out for my neighbor's pets. My dogs do not need (or at least SHOULD not) to be regulated in their own home because someone else can't keep control of their animals and keep them on their land. I think you are putting the responsibility on the wrong side of the fence. Or I may be misreading something...I _can_ understand why you feel the way you do. I just think the whole of responsibility still rests with the escapee's owner. Not anyone else at all.


I dunno...isn't this somewhat like the problem with the OP here? Her animals were unsupervised in "their home". The dogs killed her cat. It's her fault for leaving the animals unsupervised. 

Your animals are unsupervised in "their home". A dog, cat, ect. might wander onto the property and your dogs might kill it, because they were unsupervised. Shouldn't all owned animals always be supervised if there's a chance of danger, to themselves or other creatures? Of course, if the animal killed is owned, it SHOULDN'T be wandering around, getting onto other people's property, but that doesn't mean you have any less responsibility in supervising your animals.

Just IMO. =P

EDIT~~Mac N Rose, good point. There are FAR too many "feral" cats in my area (it started from one unspayed female, who was "owned" and let free to roam). They are killing so much wildlife and defecating and peeing everywhere...and multiplying.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

To me, it's less about responsibility (for example, I am aware that a person would not be legally liable if a stray animal got onto his/her property and was killed by a pet dog who lived there, and I think that is the right result), and more about what we can all do,_ within reason,_ to prevent the needless suffering of animals. For example, if I knew that there was a rabbit warren on my (hypothetical) property, I would keep my dog contained so as not to go after the rabbits. If I knew my neighbor's cat liked to get into my yard, I'd keep my dog contained so as not to go after the cat. In both cases, I would also call the proper people to remove the other animals, but I wouldn't let my dog loose in the yard until the situation were under control (or I was supervising and my dog was fully under voice control (also a hypothetical, lol)).

Edited to quote Dakota (this thread is moving too fast for me!!):


Dakota Spirit said:


> Sorry yes, I missed the fact that they were ferals and not someone's pet cat.
> 
> However, the last line of your post is basically the kind of situation I would be refering to with my OP. Yes it would be unfortunate if that little dog was killed, no I would not stand by and watch my dog do so, BUT it is not MY responsibility to watch out for my neighbor's pets. My dogs do not need (or at least SHOULD not) to be regulated in their own home because someone else can't keep control of their animals and keep them on their land. I think you are putting the responsibility on the wrong side of the fence. Or I may be misreading something...I _can_ understand why you feel the way you do. I just think the whole of responsibility still rests with the escapee's owner. Not anyone else at all.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

it is not my responsibility to watch my dog outside 24-7 if they are in a secure area to make sure they don't kill a cat that wanders onto my property. Now, i don't wish harm on a cat that does so, but if it happens...i'm sorry...but it happened. I make measures to make sure my dogs don't harm my cat. I take responsibility for that, but the responsiblity of other's pets do not fall upon me if you let it 'wander' into my yard.



Bailey08 said:


> If I knew my neighbor's cat liked to get into my yard, I'd keep my dog contained so as not to go after the cat. In both cases, I would also call the proper people to remove the other animals, but I wouldn't let my dog loose in the yard until the situation were under control (or I was supervising and my dog was fully under voice control (also a hypothetical, lol)).



Loose dogs should train the cat not to enter the yard quick enough. I don't know if I would leash my dog everytime i took it out to potty just so my neighbor's cat doesn't get hurt. the cat will learn...


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Katzyn said:


> I dunno...isn't this somewhat like the problem with the OP here? Her animals were unsupervised in "their home". The dogs killed her cat. It's her fault for leaving the animals unsupervised.
> 
> Your animals are unsupervised in "their home". A dog, cat, ect. might wander onto the property and your dogs might kill it, because they were unsupervised. Shouldn't all owned animals always be supervised if there's a chance of danger, to themselves or other creatures? Of course, if the animal killed is owned, it SHOULDN'T be wandering around, getting onto other people's property, but that doesn't mean you have any less responsibility in supervising your animals.
> 
> Just IMO. =P


Yes, I agree . Your pets SHOULD be supervised (for the most part, anyway) and as a mentioned, well enough trained to be called off their chase. I think though, sometimes this gets used as an excuse to not take credit for allowing your animal to run at large and in essence, come to harm. I would feel awful if my dog killed someone's pet - I just wouldn't (and admittedly, I'm not all too good at explaining myself) be shouldering the blame if someone's loose cat came into my yard and was killed. I'm sorry, but I just won't. Knowing my dog is prey driven I may have made the efforts small animals out of my home (cats, ferrets, etc.) - YOU (not you, but the general person) however, are the one that allowed your pet loose and YOU are the one that put it in danger. To me it kind of equates to blaming a coyote for killing a loose cat. The coyote was doing what was natural do it (just as most prey driven dogs are) - and the cat wouldn't have suffered had IT been under proper supervision.

Now, I don't really put that situation in the same league as the OP's. She brought the animals into her home so it was her responsibility to watch over them and make sure things like this didn't happen. 



Bailey08 said:


> To me, it's less about responsibility (for example, I am aware that a person would not be legally liable if a stray animal got onto his/her property and was killed by a pet dog who lived there, and I think that is the right result), and more about what we can all do,_ within reason,_ to prevent the needless suffering of animals. For example, if I knew that there was a rabbit warren on my (hypothetical) property, I would keep my dog contained so as not to go after the rabbits. If I knew my neighbor's cat liked to get into my yard, I'd keep my dog contained so as not to go after the cat. In both cases, I would also call the proper people to remove the other animals, but I wouldn't let my dog loose in the yard until the situation were under control (or I was supervising and my dog was fully under voice control (also a hypothetical, lol)).
> 
> Edited to quote Dakota (this thread is moving too fast for me!!):


Truly, I can understand where you are coming from. I hope I'm not sounding cynical or cruel with my opinion, as that isn't my intent. I do not wish the cats to come to harm and I do feel bad when it happens...just want to make that clear. 

I agree that if I knew a specific occurrence (same cat showing up time and again) was likely to occur that I may take special precautions to prevent any altercation. Instead of calling the AC to deal with it however, I'd probably take the animals down to the shelter myself and let the owners know that's where they are for when they feel like going to pick them up. The problem I have is many people seem to have a hard time learning their lesson and continue to let their pets free again and again (hence while I would resort to taking them to a shelter and forcing the owners to pay bail out). I simply do not see how's it fair to expect anyone to keep their dog contained (or otherwise regulated) in it's own house or yard because SOMEONE ELSE won't exercise the proper responsibility for their pet.


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Loose dogs should train the cat not to enter the yard quick enough. I don't know if I would leash my dog everytime i took it out to potty just so my neighbor's cat doesn't get hurt. the cat will learn...


Yeah, it'll learn, Oh, unless it's dead. =P

But yeah, I -do- see what you guys are saying. I guess I would just rather to take extra (maybe unnecessary) precautions to almost guarantee that my animals would do no harm to anyone else's animals, and vice versa.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

^^ I agree, Dakota. I actually think we're pretty much on the same page. I don't think many of us can live our lives constantly worrying about what can happen. I would go crazy if I had to watch my pets like a hawk all the time "just in case." I would feel terrible if an animal of mine killed another animal, but I wouldn't feel responsible if I'd taken reasonable precautions. Maybe what's reasonable is a bit of a grey area for us all, you know?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Katzyn said:


> Yeah, it'll learn, Oh, unless it's dead. =P
> 
> But yeah, I -do- see what you guys are saying. I guess I would just rather to take extra (maybe unnecessary) precautions to almost guarantee that my animals would do no harm to anyone else's animals, and vice versa.


I would try to take precautions to prevent any animal from coming to harm...but I have 3 dogs if for some strange reason my dogs really went crazy to get at an animal in my yard I don't know 100% if I could stop it. 

I refuse to leash my dogs in my own fenced backyard..that is not fair to me or my animals

(my dogs really have no problem w/cats...but you never know )


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Bailey08 said:


> ^^ I agree, Dakota. I actually think we're pretty much on the same page. I don't think many of us can live our lives constantly worrying about what can happen. I would go crazy if I had to watch my pets like a hawk all the time "just in case." I would feel terrible if an animal of mine killed another animal, but I wouldn't feel responsible if I'd taken reasonable precautions. Maybe what's reasonable is a bit of a grey area for us all, you know?


Lol I think so, sometimes it takes me a bit if discussing to get to/see that point 

Definitely some grey area. There are viable arguments for both sides.


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I would try to take precautions to prevent any animal from coming to harm...but I have 3 dogs if for some strange reason my dogs really went crazy to get at an animal in my yard I don't know 100% if I could stop it.
> 
> I refuse to leash my dogs in my own fenced backyard..that is not fair to me or my animals
> 
> (my dogs really have no problem w/cats...but you never know )


Lol, just note that you're talking to a person who hasn't had a dog for...so many years, so I can say what I -think- or -want- to do when I have a dog, but that may totally change when I actually HAVE a dog. =P


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

It's not surprising that 3 dogs outside kill a cat they know and get along with inside the house. I would no more let my cats outside in the back yard with my dogs than I would let my cats roam free outside. 

With that said, my (formerly feral) cat, Tommy, does escape from time to time, despite my due diligence. I usually supervise the dogs while outside, because we have wild critters than can, and do, get inside my 6' wood privacy fence, and I do not want my dogs bitten by a racoon or snake. My dogs are trained, so when I say LEAVE IT, they stop in their tracks. Even so, things happen. One morning, while I was out with the dogs, I saw them race after something. I quickly went over to check it out, and it was Tommy! The Dogs realized it was Tommy by scent, but, good thing for HIM that he's learned to move SLOWLY, so as not to incite prey drive in the dogs (when moving past them while they're napping), Smart cat. Even though my dogs are very friendly and gentle with Tommy, they are dogs, they do have strong prey drive, and can be triggered. They've killed citrus rats, 'possum, and a squirrel. When Tommy has escapted and comes back inside moving fast, Maddy and Beau are just as fast, so it's funny to see Tommy's exaggerated slow-motion movements! It slows the dogs down so they have time to catch his scent, at which point their entire bodies relax, and there's much happy-to-see-you tail wagging and sniff-checking him out all over!

One cannot "know" that their cats do, or do not do, such and such when outside. The housecat becomes a very different cat when outside! The dangers far outweigh any reason for letting cats roam free outside, IMO.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I refuse to leash my dogs in my own fenced backyard..that is not fair to me or my animals
> 
> (my dogs really have no problem w/cats...but you never know )


I agree, I spent a fair amount of money on my fence so my dogs could have a place to go out, off leash, and not be a nuissance to the neighbors...I certainly wouldn't be happy if they killed a cat, or a bird or anything for that matter, that's one of the things I factored in when selecting a breed, low prey drive, potential to be good with small animals...I also supervise them outdoors, though not for this reason, but I draw the line at leashing my dogs in my fence. As much as I love animals, I do not have time, energy, money...to be responsible for the whole neighborhood full...at some point people have to take responsibility for their own pets. We are fortunate right now not to have ferals....


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

If a well-behaved, desexed, microchipped cat happened to wander into my yard because his owner let him prance around the neighbourhood as he pleased, he would die, and I would have absolutely no sympathy for his owner. 

If you are aware that you are placing your pets in a situation that could be potentially fatal, and you choose to do it anyway, then go ahead. But I think we have all learned from this thread, and some of us from past experiences, that the odds are usually against you.


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## storysunfolding (Aug 26, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> If a well-behaved, desexed, microchipped cat happened to wander into my yard because his owner let him prance around the neighbourhood as he pleased, he would die, and I would have absolutely no sympathy for his owner.



The problem is that in my neighborhood the cat owner would go berzerk, call animal services, sue you and tell all the neighbors about the "dangerous devil dogs"


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

To Pugmom, I would be more worried about your two little dogs then a tom cat, they have very short snout and can easily lose an eye. My doberman got a cat that is the cat got him in our yard and was hanging on to my dob nose. As serious the situation was I was able to grab and remove the cat from my dogs nose and tossed the cat over the fence. Do not worry cat lovers the same cat came back the next day! My dob once caught a gopher had him in his mouth and I said leave it and he droped the gopher and it run into its hole. Now thats a trained dog.lol


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

kelliope said:


> Wow. I'm pretty shocked at how some so-called animal lovers don't care about the pain and suffering of animals that are not "theirs" and let their dogs kill them. Good grief. I can't imagine not having a love of all animals. Not just owned ones.
> 
> I am so done with this thread.


No one 'lets' their dogs kill cats. I'm pretty sure no one sets their dogs on cats on purpose. It's just with cats roaming in your yard you never know. It's the cat owner's risk they're taking with their cats, it's not my dog's problem. We supervise all our dogs outside, but even then there have been times there was a cat outside that Trey has found and chased off. Things happen and even my 7 lb papillon will go after small animals (though cats are a bit big for her). She's killed small reptiles and frogs many times. It's not like I'm pleased when I find a dead thing she's killed, but it happens. 

There is only so much you can do to prevent something like this from happening. It's very impractical to force everyone's dogs in runs or on a leash all the time even though they were on their own property. If the cat was on it's own property, it wouldn't be in danger from my dogs. My dogs are contained. If the cat owner would do the same there'd be no problem.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

jewels8287 said:


> I'm in desperate need for some answers & advice here.
> 
> I have 3 dogs. All Males. Boxer, 2. Golden Retriever, 1. Mixed Breed, 5 months.
> 
> ...


Only 1 post? 

One could have started to chase the cat, many dogs have a prey drive. Even if they never did it before it could just now happen. Think of a cat how they play with a mouse or bird, it is like a "game" to them sometimes. 

I'd say for the most part no you shouldn't have to worry about your kids. Most all my dogs have varying level of prey drive, however they love children and very much know the difference between a squirrel vs a 1yr old, ect. On the other hand I have seen dogs which cannot make this distinction, they see any fast moving thing as something to chase whether it is a child or a rabbit, so they can't be trust around small running/playing children. Other dogs who are aggressive could be a danger to any other living being it all depends on the reason why your dog(s) killed the cat. 

My dogs for instance have killed a couple cats, even though they were confined, they still love kids. Just last night one of mine was licking my son, wagging her whole body, being goofy. Then she heard/smelled a mouse, got serious, sniffed around that area, waited for the mouse to jump out that was her hunting instincts shortly after that she was right back laying on DH lap and cuddling with every body else. 



MyRescueCrew said:


> Were the dogs neutered? Having 3 unneutered males around is asking for trouble, even with children.


What trouble would this be? I guess I'm in deep doodoo. 



blackrose said:


> So sorry to hear about the loss of your cat.  That has to be rough.
> 
> My dogs have killed a cat before (a feral adolescent that was in our field), but they have attempted to kill many more cats that wander into our yard.
> 
> ...


Good post!



Elana55 said:


> 2.) You have 3 dogs who are obviously *UNTRAINED.* *TRAIN them.* This means all the time. No slack. Ever. Period. *NOTHING IN LIFE IS FREE.* If training the dogs means too much time from the kids and husband, SO or whatever, REHOME THE DOGS, rehome the kids, or rehome the SO or husband because *you don't have the time or committment to do this RIGHT.*


This is just an assumption. Maybe the dogs are trained, maybe not. Trained dogs can attack cats. 



> 3.) _*NEVER EVER EVER ALLOW A PACK OF DOGS TO BE ALONE WITH CHILDREN, OTHER PETS, LIVESTOCK ETC.*_


I know I'm far from the only one to disagree with this. I'm sure many with LGDs would agree with me, as it would defeat the point of having the LGDs to stay with the flock 24/7 which means including when you are not there. 



> Could this have been one of your kids? You betcha. READ THE NEWSPAPERS. Happens all the time. *Unsupervised, untrained dogs (and sometimes TRAINED dogs) left with children do sometimes hurt or kill them.* AFTER IT HAPPENS THE dogs pay *NOT THE PARENT WHO OUGHT TO PAY.*


I agree this can happen to kids, even one dog isn't wise to leave around children, especially such small children 1-3yrs. That could be very bad. On the other hand we have no way of knowing whether these dogs would see children as prey or not. Many dogs do not see humans as prey then others do. 



> *If you cannot supervise them, put them in kennel runs that separate them from each other. Crate them. NEVER EVER EVER allow them free together without direct supervision. Period. End of story. * If you cannot AFFORD separate Kennel Runs and Crates, you should not have 3 dogs.


This is what I do. These are the rules I live by and they work best for our home. I would advise it to certain other people as well. 



storysunfolding said:


> It's harsh but it gets the message across. Anything your dogs do is ultimately your fault. Complacency with your dogs around other animals or people is a recipe for disaster. If your dog isn't trained to leave it, off or recall regardless of what's happening, then it shouldn't be out of your immediate control.


This is pretty good idea but on the other hand even if the dog is trained to leave it, if its out of your immediate control then you still won't always have a way to give the command. Such as in this situation. If you look out the window and the dogs are already killing the cat it does little good that they are trained to leave it. 



kelliope said:


> Pugmom, I bring up leash law for cats because you were asking 4dogs3cats if she would let her dogs roam free.
> 
> As I said before, bottom line - THAT is comparing apples to oranges. There is no law against letting your cats wander. There is a law against letting your dogs wander.
> 
> So neighbors of yours who let their cats out are doing nothing wrong in the eyes of the law. They are within the confines of the law.


It depends where you live. Some areas have these laws for cats. So they will be picked up when people call about loose cats in their yard. In other areas they are considered "free roamers" and the AC won't do anything about it. On the same hand though if the cat gets killed while free roamer you're usually not held responsible either (obviously except if it were intentional cruelty)


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Wow, this has gone in all sorts of directions; hasn't it?

My two cents: we have three cats and they're all indoor/outdoor. We have 5 acres and can't even see our neighbors from here (although can slightly through the trees in the winter). Our cats have always been outdoors. My family had never known better. I'm proud of how far my parents have come in pet ownership, but the cats still go outside. However, they're all pretty old now and barely ever go outdoors these days. If they do (winter time the don't) they just sun bathe on the back porch.

Yes, there are dangers outside. Not as many as a highly populated area I think, and not as many human dangers such as people, cars etc. but more different dangers like wild animals.

Once I move out, I will never have a cat that goes outside unsupervised. Our cats have never had anything happen to them from being outside, but it is still a huge risk. When I lived with my boyfriend I had a stray "find me" and I took her home, cleaned her up, put some weight on her and had her spayed and vaccinated. We were living in a trailer court at the time that was highly populated and known for one neighbor who liked to poision cats with antifreeze, and another who owned two large dogs that killed cats. I REFUSED to let Faelin outside unsupervised, whereas my boyfriend let his roam all the time. We had countless arguments about this. He's VERY lucky that in the year we lived there nothing happened to his cat, although unfortunately, 'proves he was right" *rolls eyes* so his cat will always probably go outside.

I got Faeiln a harness and leash and tried to train her for that. She was doing really well and was a very smart cat (I talk about her in past tense because I ended up rehoming her because I had to move back home). The difference between leashing a cat and leashing a dog, I have found, is that cats spook easier and when they do they will go through anyone in their way to safety; including the person on the other end of the leash. Yes, SOME dogs may turn on their owner when spooked and scared but most don't. Most turn to their owners for help. Being as cats are more independent they'd rather just shred your arm off to get out of the danger.

When this happened to me there wasn't even any serious danger. To this day I have no idea what spooked her. Something sure did though, and this was the end result:





































The leash got wrapped around my arm when she spooked and she turned on in, thinking I was intending to hurt her, was holding her back, or whatever was going through her little kitty brain.

I never blamed the cat, although I was slightly scared of cats for months afterwards. I still loved all my kitties, but if they seemed spooked in any way it scared me really bad. To this day I refuse to walk a cat on a leash, even my sisters very well trained cat who is extremely laid back and socialized to everything (use to be a therapy cat).

I'm not saying people shouldn't leash their cats, but if there was a leash law in placed for cats I'd be a little ticked because there's no way I'll walk a cat on a leash again. My attack from Faelin happened in a matter of seconds so there was no way to be able to just drop the leash and let her run. She was wrapped around me so quickly I had no time to respond but try desperately to untangle her and get her off my arms.

Also, my other sister with the non-harness trained cats, just lost one of her cats about a month ago. She went outside and never came back. The thing is she STILL lets the other one outside even though I've told her countless times she shouldn't, and her Sally kitty going missing is proof of that. *sigh*


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## brook (Oct 14, 2008)

I think thing would be keeping them away from your other cats until this issue can be addressed.

---------
Brook


Sreevysh Corp


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

doggonegood, if that ever happened to me, that cat would be gone.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DogGoneGood
I was in a Vet's room one day they were going to spay a young female cat. there were 2 vets and 2 assistants that were gopher types not operating etc just hanging around. To make a long story short one of the vets was going to give the kitten a tranquilizer shot (this was many yrs ago memory a tad hazy) this cat exploded with movement and when it was done all 4 in the room (I was standing outside the door to room) had scratches some of which were actually to the bone. The scary part is that the cat looked like a white blur while inflicting the injuries. As I said it was a young cat.


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

Yup, I've been attacked by some of my own cats (at the vets). SLK and I, at a cat show, saw one of our friends, who shows/breeds Somalis, was "attacked" by her wonderful boy, Omega. He ripped up her arm even worse than what was done to DogGoneGood. It was all a blur, a ruddy-coloured-cat blur, as he scrambled up and down, around and around her arms. We have NO idea what spooked him; there were no loud noises, no crying children, nothing. 

It's scary, because when cats are THAT frenzied, you never know what they'll do. Some cats will behave just fine, some will freak OUT. Not every cat is the same.

That being said, some cats just SHOULDN'T go outside, on a leash or not. If they spook that easily and get that freaked out, they probably shouldn't go outside, or they'll spook themselves into getting hit by a car, exciting a prey-driven dog, ect. I am afraid of that happening with my young male, so I don't take him outside that often. I'm pretty sure I could contain him if he got real spooked, but like I said, you never know how they will react. I KNOW my young male pretty dang well, being his "mother", who taught him just about everything he knows, but even I can't ever know exactly what he'll do at all times.

Spudfan, OMG. CUTE. And around my house, it's not a cup f cat, it's a cup of cat HAIR. It's in every food I eat. >_< Usually, it's my cat Sassy's hair; I can always tell it's hers, because it's black and grey ticked, and she's the only one in the house that's ticked those colours. =P

RED, why would the cat be gone? It's not the cat's fault it got spooked. -_-


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Elana55 said:


> Be prepared for the following. It is harsh.
> 
> 1.) This is 100% your responsibility. Allowing a pack of dogs, *ANY pack of dogs*, loose without supervision around another species of animal is INVITING trouble. *YOU did this. *
> 
> ...





RED said:


> im sorry but Elana half the stuff you put you have no clue about. they could be very well trained dogs. you never know.
> 
> and i found most of the things you put very offensivly, even tho it wasnt apointed to me. it was very rude.





Bizzle3 said:


> Wow Elana. That was said very brutal and mean. I think you could have said that a little nicer....





RED said:


> nicer isnt the word for it bizzle. sounds like someone ran out of midol.





WhySoSerious? said:


> Agreed.
> 
> That was uncalled for.
> 
> ...


 
*ELANA IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! *

Trained or not, the OP DOES bare the responsibilty for this. The dogs were not supervised properly or this wouldn't have happened *PERIOD. *It may not be what you all wish to hear, but God forbid this HAD been her child.

It may not be nice, it may not be warm and fuzzy, but it's the pure unadulterated *TRUTH*.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> *ELANA IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! *
> 
> Trained or not, the OP DOES bare the responsibilty for this. The dogs were not supervised properly or this wouldn't have happened *PERIOD. *It may not be what you all wish to hear, but God forbid this HAD been her child.
> 
> It may not be nice, it may not be warm and fuzzy, but it's the pure unadulterated *TRUTH*.


I agree it can't possibly be any others fault, it is the OPs. I never saw them deny fault or say they were not at all responsible. They seemed like they came here looking for answers. Trying to learn. Asking why did it happen, are the dogs safe around their kids, ect. I think telling them that they are at fault is a good idea to make sure they realize this could have been prevented if handled different. I just don't understand how being rude will make them listen better. It is a serious matter and maybe its because this is their first post we don't know if they are being casual or not. If it had a been a long time member I think responses might have been different. I think that if they would stick around then they could learn a lot more about dogs by many of the educated people here.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

katzyn
yes the blur is hard to imagine, I was 19 yrs old and had vision like an eagle and blur explains the speed and sight.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

DogGoneGood.. I am sorry your cat hurt you but that particular cat was not trained when it was leashed and spooked. 

Training a cat to a leash is most easily done when the cat is a very small kitten. However, Oliver was almost 6 months old and he got it right away. The very first most important thing is teaching the cat you are the safe place when they are scared. Oliver got it right away. Some cats are easier than others. All my cats know to come to me when they are scared or spooked. 

I have a cat called Peanut who walks on a leash and I have taken hiking with me (did when she was younger). One time, on the trail, she spooked. It started wwith her growling then she turned to me and asked to be picked up. Shen I was not fast enough. she climbed up my leg and ended up on my shoulder. She was like the Halloween Cat (but orange, not black). She was hissing and growling. 

I followed her line of sight and there was a 5 foot snake in the trail. Interesting and my next step would have been on the snake. Well, I got looking at the snake ans suddenly it reared up it heasd and started to buzz. I got to see my FIRST timber RattleSnake. She was shedding and striking at the air. IF Peanut had not spooked and turned to me and climbed up my leg when I was not quick enough to pick her up, I would have been bitten. I was about 2.5 miles from the car and the tail is not well used. 

Timber Rattler Venom can kill you and the way this snake ws acting, she would have struck me several times if I had stepped on her (which would have also likely broken her back and killed her). These snakes are protected in my State. I got a long stick and eased her off the trail so she could continue to shed in peace and so no one else would be in danger. 

Peanut had been taught to come to me for security if she was frightened. If I had not taught her this.. well, I think there is a good chance she saved my life. At the very least she saved me from being terribly ill and possibly suffering kidney or liver damage from the venom. she scratched my leg a little on her climb up, but those scratches were nothing compared to what could have happened to me. 

BTW RED you are very black and white in your judgement of animals and very grey in your judgement of humans. I tend to give the animal the benefit of a doubt and come down like a hammer on the human because most of the time aniimal "accidents" are human error. 

I used to like flying and was going to learn to fly small planes. I used to get a magazine called "Flying" and every issue detailed an accident (most were fatal) that could be traced back to human error. Either the human at the controls was trying to work beyond their skill level or they were not attending to business.. If these humans had been a bit more black and white on their judgement of their skill levels they would ALL be alive today. Instead they entered a grey area.. "I can fly insturment now" and they didn't have enough hours (Young John Kennedy paid in that regard) or "the Weather won't close in THAT fast.." but it does. 

It is not a lot different with animals. With animals, you need to be vigilant, attentive and very much aware of where the animals limits lie. DogGoneGood's kittie was not ready for leash walking in a strange place. The incident ended up really hurting the cat's owner.. but it wasn't the CAT'S fault.. it was the owner expeciting more than the cat could stand (the cat spooked.. so the cat was taken past her threshold). 

Understanding animals.. understaning where they are in their training and what you can ask now and what you cannot ask because they are not ready for it is a skill every animal owner needs to develop. As the animal owner you cannot allow others to pressure you to do more with your animal than it is ready for and you can't pressure yourself to go there either. You need to know where the line is. If you are fuzzy on the location of the line, step back to where you are clear and the animal will be too. 

Just tossing the animal because you, as the handler screwed up and got hurt is pretty self centered. 

People tend not to take responsibility. They blame the dog or the cat or make excuses when they need to look to home and realize where the break down happened and how to prevent that break down from ever happening again. 

Of course, if people took responsibility in the first place and really looked for the line past which their animal was not ready to go, then accidents would be prevented. Prevention is 9/10ths of the cure. 

DogGoneGood, I think you have it all figured out. A scared cat can do a LOT of damage. Handling a scared cat requires technique to prevent yourself being injured or the cat being injured. Even then, you can and will get bitten and scratched (just less severely). 

I am glad your family still has the cat. I admire your taking responsibility and am sorry this traumatized you and made you afraid.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

You're right Elana, Faelin was not harness trained. However, she didn't generally spook that easy. Afterall, I did cary her all the way home from work which was about a half hour walk through some busy roads, some allies, past barking dogs etc. She didn't know me but she sat perfectly still in my arms the whole way. In fact when she spooked and clawed me up we were INSIDE. She was fairly young, less than a year so with more time and propper knowledge I'm sure she would have done great on the harness, in fact may be now. Unfortunately I don't still have her, but I didn't get rid of her because she clawed me up. My boyfriend wanted me to get rid of her, he was down right ready to kill her when he came in and found me sitting on the floor COVERED in blood. First thing he said was 'WHERE IS SHE?" and I grabbed him and cried "Don't hurt her!" lol The reason I don't have her is I shouldn't have gotten her in the first place. I didn't plan on getting a cat because I didn't know what my living situation would be in the next few years and had dogs to worry about enough, nevermind adding a cat. She found me and was in such bad shape I had to take her in and fix her up. I found her a good home and she now lives in Alberta. I haven't talked to her new owner in some time, but last I heard she was doing great and her ner owner couldn't believe how well she was with dogs hehehe (I wonder why ).

I know cats can be harness trained and under control even when they are spooked. My oldest sisters cat is a great example of this, as I can tell your cat is too. My point was simply that if there was a leash law in place I'd be POed because I AM traumatized enough now not to want to walk a cat on leash. I don't have a fear of cats exactly, but I refuse to walk one on leash. Not to mention if a leash law went in place people with existing indoor/outdoor cats would be forced to harness train their cats, and I can garantee they're not all kittens who are easier to train for it 

I suppose I should comment on the original post, even though the poster is likely to not return  I agree it is the owners fault 100%. However, I do think adding a little sugar to your words can keep people from NOT running away and rather stick around to learn. But if this world wasn't made up with so many diverse people, it would be pretty boring, wouldn't it?

Yes, dogs are dog and can act, you guessed it, like dogs. They can be a potential dangerous. I myself have had my fair share of bites and witnessed what dogs have the potential of doing (haven't been bitten in years, I think I may have wised up a bit hehe).

As an owner it is your responsibility to care for your pets in every way possible. This includes both protecting it from other dangers, and protecting others from your pets!

Although there are varying degrees of what people consider propper precautions, and just because one person thinks it's okay to leave their cats alone in a room with their dogs and another person doesn't; doesn't mean each person is either right or wrong. You have to do what works for your household, and unfortunately sometimes in order to figure that out bad things happen. I hope the original poster has learned this valuable lesson and those dogs are never left alone with cats or children.

Life is all about learning, and quite often it's learning the hardway. It sucks, I know. There are PLEANTY of things in my life that I wish I could redo because it was just so stupid and I or someone else had to pay for my mistake. But I took what happened and learned from it and changed my ways. Another amazing learning tool, which thankfully does not cost anyone's life or limb (though sometimes their pride or self esteme) is the internet. I've learned far more online about dogs than I ever though possible, perhaps even more than I've learned through personal experience. So I really do hope the OP finds the guts to come back and learn how to properly contain her dogs when she can't supervise them.


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

And the saga continues.......Stay tuned folks........More to come....


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

I obviously haven't read 198 posts... in fact, I stopped after I posted one response like 7 or 8 freaking pages ago. But good lord, nearly 200 posts? This must've been one hell of a conversation you guys are having, LOL.

And once again, I'm out. Carry on.


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## Bailey08 (Aug 12, 2008)

And only one post from the OP. And I'm #200.


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

anyways the moral of the story is when owners suck, theyre animals suck too. lol


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## rahulmittal (Oct 15, 2008)

Sorry to hear about your cat. You should keep your cats away from your dogs. Be with your kids when the dogs are around even if they hadn’t killed you cat. Please find some behaviorist or trainer for your dogs. 
______________________________________________________________
Rahul

http://www.raleighdentist.com


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

SpudFan said:


> I think this says everything


LOL, that's a good one, I like it Spud!


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I enjoyed this thread ....very multi-sided


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

Regarding those cat scratch photos, they are not that painfull, alot like what getting tattoo would feel like. I had taught my very dignified cat, Elizabeth to climb up on me in case of danger, big mistake. so while i was cleaning dishes during summer, and I did not have much on, and I got tattooed all the way up to my neck, where she likes curl around and rest. Oh I was not mad at her.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

BobSD said:


> Regarding those cat scratch photos, they are not that painfull, alot like what getting tattoo would feel like. I had taught my very dignified cat, Elizabeth to climb up on me in case of danger, big mistake. so while i was cleaning dishes during summer, and I did not have much on, and I got tattooed all the way up to my neck, where she likes curl around and rest. Oh I was not mad at her.


Well, never having had a tattoo, I at least now have the 411 on how it would feel.......


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

BobSD said:


> Regarding those cat scratch photos, they are not that painfull, alot like what getting tattoo would feel like. I had taught my very dignified cat, Elizabeth to climb up on me in case of danger, big mistake. so while i was cleaning dishes during summer, and I did not have much on, and I got tattooed all the way up to my neck, where she likes curl around and rest. Oh I was not mad at her.


Considering I was the one getting scratch, AND I have a tattoo on my shoulders, I can tell you it did NOT feel the same. The cat scratches were ten times worse.

That pic of my thumb it doesn't look as bad as it was but she bit down DEEP and my thumb swelled up to twice it's size.

I can tell you with most certanty it didn't feel the same.

I have a cat that climbs onto my shoulder and quite often gets some claws in too and THAT is comparable to how a tattoo feels, but what Faelin did to me wasn't comparable at all.

Not to mention that every one of those scratches (except the bites on my thumb, strangley enough) have turned into scars that will last a lifetime. The scratches from Daiquiri climbing on my shoulders fade within a few months. Both my arms were scratched pretty bad, one more than the other, and every one swelled up terribly (I always swell from cat scratches) and were so painful to move my skin that I had to get my boyfriend to help me get my pants undone and done back up just to go to the bathroom! It was awful, and the only time I've ever seen that much blood come from me was when I was in a car accident.

Cat claws are deadly sharp, not to mention quite often full of bacteria. Cat scratches can be down right nasty.


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

DogGoneGood, I truly apologize if I even sounded slightly that the cuts you received were anything like I got from my cat. I guess you can call my scratches friendly scratches ( not intentional), and no scars left. I just hope you had some hydrogen peroxide on hand when this happened. If some one was around to tape that, it would make Riplys believe it or not show.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Bailey08 said:


> And only one post from the OP. And I'm #200.


I have been following this...sorta...and wondered if the OP had responded at all.


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## Filnyyena (Jul 24, 2008)

WOW this thread is hot...

Honestly, I thought this was a troll post simply for the fact that the OP has 3 dogs and 3 children (3..2..and ... 1???) not to mention cats and other some suchs....

TO catch up: I agree with Elana and Cshell...Quite frankly, the OP needs to rehome her dogs.....after they have killed a cat, I would NOT trust them around my children (in the future of course ). I would have given up two of them earlier on if they were such a hassle..if I could not afford a kennel/dog run..or I would have rehomed the cat if I could not invest the money/time/emotions in training my pack to keep away (not the game!) from the cat.

Family, children especially > Dogs/cats when it comes down to it..as harsh as that may seem..


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

BobSD said:


> DogGoneGood, I truly apologize if I even sounded slightly that the cuts you received were anything like I got from my cat. I guess you can call my scratches friendly scratches ( not intentional), and no scars left. I just hope you had some hydrogen peroxide on hand when this happened. If some one was around to tape that, it would make Riplys believe it or not show.


Oh no worries.
Oh gosh, I hate peroxide!!  I basically wrapped my arms in paper towels and then ran it under the tap.

Unfortunately no one was even around to witness my mistfortune. I was bringing the cat inside and my friends were waiting for me in the car because we were all heading out, so it happened and then I ran outside and SCREAMED for my boyfriend then ran back in and grabbed the paper towel. Then back out to scream for my boyfriend again as he was sitting in the car with a look on his face like I was crazy or something lol



I agree that protecting your family comes first. If you can't handle your amount of pets and children, some measures need to be taken to contain/train the pets or they need to be rehomed. One of my dogs is really not fond of children (never had any around to introduce him to until recently) and my mom asked me the other day what I'm going to do if I want kids... I told her I won't have kids until after Coal's gone, which regardless of Coal's issues I probably won't anyway because I most likely won't be ready for kids until that amount of time has passed. I would never bring a child into my life, knowing how Coal feels about them. And I would never bring a new pet into my house if I had young children and therefore not the time it takes to introduce everyone propperly and do the training etc. that you need to do.


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

if you never have kids you will have more money and time to spend on yourselfs. We never did, and I thought I read somewhere you must have children to make a marriage work!lol So what has happened I never grew up, and I have more toys then I ever had when I was a real kid!lol You are one tuff cookie DoggoneGood, I bet after to stopped the bleeding you went out to where ever you all were going!!


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## BarclaysMom (Aug 24, 2008)

BobSD said:


> if you never have kids you will have more money and time to spend on yourselfs.


That's what my husband says about pets...


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## Filnyyena (Jul 24, 2008)

BarclaysMom said:


> That's what my husband says about pets...


HAH Just tell him that having pets is less expensive than having a husband


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> I have been following this...sorta...and wondered if the OP had responded at all.


nope not at all. a good debate never hurt anyone tho.


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## Allydog (Jun 14, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> my cats are indoor/outdoor as well. They stay within our block.. and are usually sitting in front of the neighbors garage lol.
> 
> IF anything were to happen to my cats I would blame nobody but myself.
> 
> ...


My cats are also inside/outside cats and I feel that same...I wouldn't blame anybody....rather, I haven't blamed anyone when 2 of my cats have disappeared.....but the 3 I have now stay in our yard for the most part...we live out in the country on almost 2 acres...they love to hunt and roam around chasing bugs.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Yeah.. If I ever felt like my cats were in great danger I would keep them in. Funny thing though, they havent gone outside in like 3 days.. The weather just got REALLY cold out and theyre quite content inside right now


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

RED said:


> anyways the moral of the story is when owners suck, theyre animals suck too. lol


Not really. The moral is more "If an owner makes a mistake in judgement, animals can pay with their lives".


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Katzyn said:


> Not really. The moral is more "If an owner makes a mistake in judgement, animals can pay with their lives".


I agree Katzyn. How many stories have there been that a dog attacked someone and the dog was PTS. Owners rarely are punished for what the dog did.  They feel it's punishment to have their dog taken away..but then go out and get another that acts the same way.


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## cwdd45 (Oct 16, 2008)

Wow that horrible, maybe the cat taunted them?


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## RED (Oct 12, 2008)

lol same diff. lmao


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

Lol, not at all. It's the humans who "suck". The dog's just acting like a normal dog. And if you think "normal dog" means it "sucks", then I don't see why you're on a dog lover's forum. ;D


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## Filnyyena (Jul 24, 2008)

RED said:


> lol same diff. lmao


No, it is Not the same difference to say that a sucky owner = a sucky dog.

In fact, most of the time, the dog turns out wonderful when they are taken from a sucky owner and properly trained/taken care of.

But unfortunately, most dogs have to be PTS due to their owner's ignorance and stupidity and "sucky-ness" before they are given a chance to redeem themselves.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

BobSD said:


> if you never have kids you will have more money and time to spend on yourselfs. We never did, and I thought I read somewhere you must have children to make a marriage work!lol So what has happened I never grew up, and I have more toys then I ever had when I was a real kid!lol You are one tuff cookie DoggoneGood, I bet after to stopped the bleeding you went out to where ever you all were going!!


lol, I've debated back and forth about having kids, so it's still not a 100% decision yet. I'm 21 though, I've got pleanty of time to decide and do the kids thing 

Haha thanks, I actually DID go out once the bleeding had stopped. Wrapped my arms up and went to stand out in the highschool parking lot to watch my buddy try out his new mini dirt bike. Everyone tried it. Unfortunately I'm not tough enough to have my arms shredded and then ride around on an unstable, one foot tall bike lol but it was fun to watch, and it was cold enough out that my arms didn't hurt TOO bad. Once the pain and shock from what happened started getting the best of me I finally went home and crashed on the couch, but it took about an hour for that to happen. 



Filnyyena said:


> No, it is Not the same difference to say that a sucky owner = a sucky dog.
> 
> In fact, most of the time, the dog turns out wonderful when they are taken from a sucky owner and properly trained/taken care of.
> 
> But unfortunately, most dogs have to be PTS due to their owner's ignorance and stupidity and "sucky-ness" before they are given a chance to redeem themselves.


This is very, very true. Linkin use to live with sucky owners and was labled a "sucky dog" and was deemed as untrainable. He came to live with me when he was 8 months old and I was given a garantee that there was no hope for him and that it would be impossible to train him or keep him home. It's been a year since I got Linkin and he's now one of the best dogs I've ever owned. We now call him a "sucky dog" because he's such a big suck, loves everyone and loves to cuddle 

So "sucky owners" does NOT equal "sucky dog" in the least.


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## brook (Oct 14, 2008)

Dogs may kill cat due to various reasons. the mail thing is the habit may come from blood relationship or dogs may feel hungry. 

--------
Brook

Sreevysh Corp


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Filnyyena said:


> HAH Just tell him that having pets is less expensive than having a husband


or a BF. Trust me.. I have had one of each.. got rid of both.. and got a dog. Much MUCH better off financially. 

And by age 15 after a few bratty kid babysitting jobs I knew I would never have children.. they wouldn't make it to adulthood.... LOL.. 

I got a dairy farm instead. 

As a farmer I was often asked why not for kids (free labor source). I said that the cows never went to college and if they aggravated me enough I could sell them.


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## Filnyyena (Jul 24, 2008)

Lol Elana 

Are you sure they didn't go to the Bovine University?


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Filnyyena said:


> Lol Elana
> 
> Are you sure they didn't go to the Bovine University?


Oh god, I just about spit coffee all over the screen!
"When I grow up, I want to go to Bovine University!" hahahahahha


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> or a BF. Trust me.. I have had one of each.. got rid of both.. and got a dog. Much MUCH better off financially.
> 
> And by age 15 after a few bratty kid babysitting jobs I knew I would never have children.. they wouldn't make it to adulthood.... LOL..


I haven't had the husband but have had the boyfriends...will take animals over either them every time. I love kids but only because I can give them back when I'm done. And if my dogs piss me off I can lock them out of the house and not be charged with a felony! It all works for me...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Filnyyena said:


> No, it is Not the same difference to say that a sucky owner = a sucky dog.
> 
> In fact, most of the time, the dog turns out wonderful when they are taken from a sucky owner and properly trained/taken care of.
> 
> But unfortunately, most dogs have to be PTS due to their owner's ignorance and stupidity and "sucky-ness" before they are given a chance to redeem themselves.


not only that but an owner can put huge amounts of effort into a dog and still end up with a human aggressive violent nightmare due to say for an example untreatable medical issue which is the ONLY situation where the owner shouldn't take ALL the blame. Each dog is an individual and has individual problems. To say 'sucky owners equals sucky dogs' is highly naïve and shortsighted. it saddens me to read such a thing.


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