# Annual vaccinations - good or bad? Your thoughts please...



## alundy (Aug 17, 2006)

Do you think annual vaccinations are necessary, unnecessary, or outright bad? I've heard that many older dogs get tumours at the site of vaccinations. Does it make sense to vaccinate every year when we humans only get vaccinated once in a lifetime in most cases?

What do you do with your dog?

Here is a link which states an argument against annual vaccinations:

Vaccinations


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## Beckster258 (Oct 3, 2006)

I'm undecided. I always took Lucy to the vet every year for her shots, but when she developed the AIHA that I talked about in my topic, they said that even though they don't know what causes it, the vaccinations are a possibility. Now I'm afraid that if I get another dog, this will happen again. I guess I'm a bit leary now. Her anemia came out of nowhere, and so quickly, that nothing could be done for her. It does make me wonder about those shots.


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## alundy (Aug 17, 2006)

Some people I've talked to said get the puppy shots, the 1 year boosters, and then after that just rabies every 3 years. Of course I would still go in for an annual checkup. I'm really not sure what to do and there are so many conflicting opinions out there.


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## all4thedogs (Sep 25, 2006)

I personally do not do annual vaccines. I do the puppy/kitten series, rabies at one year. Then rabies is given once every 3yrs (per the law). I dont think annual boosters are needed. I think they do more harm then good. 

Its all a matter of opinion at this point. Be sure to talk to your vet. My vet is fine with my vaccine routine. My animals still go to the vet at least once a year for a check up. This is very important


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i also do the puppy, 1 yr and rabies every 3 yrs after but i also give the DHLPParvo every 3 yrs as well and nasal bordetella every 6 mo....this since mine are around lots of other dogs regularly

i've heard of there being a link to annual vaccines and alot of the behavioral problems w/ dogs (aggression, noise phobias, etc)


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## 3dogsplus (Sep 10, 2006)

As someone in the profession, I also do the puppy shots, annual booster and then I usually revaccinate every 3 years. If you board your dogs at a kennel or take them to doggie day care, the kennel may require yearly boosters. You can also have titers done to see how protected your dog is but at this time, we are not sure what a protective titer is. The rabies vaccinations are dictated by state/county law. There is a lot of anecdotal information about vaccinations being linked to many diseases although few have been proven. My personal feeling (again, no research) is that there MAY be a link between frequent vaccinations and immune diseases.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Until I lost my beatiful 8 year old German Shepherd three months after his annual vaccinations I would have said to always have them done. Since I lost him after being given a clean bill of health I can only conclude that the vaccinations had some effect on his contracting Lymphoma. His immune system was evidentually weakened and this terrible disease made a perfectly heathy, active, agile, lively, smart, beautiful and devoted dog lose 20 + pounds and stop eating, lose all strenght, despite the fact I was feeding him chuck roasts and venison three to four pounds a day when the predisone would help his appetite. There was nothing I could do to help him and all I ever did was fed him the best foods with no preservatives and took him to the vet as recommended and his yearly shots as recommended also. He was always very active and never had a health issue in his life. 


Since then, I have read every article I can find and have come to the conclusion that the vaccinations are not needed in the yearly procedures. I personally will never have a dog revaccinated for anything other than what is mandated by local laws such as rabies. The other vaccinations I will have done on a three or four year basis. There are articles out there by immunologists that say the immune systems are being damaged by multiple vaccinations of the same serums and instead of preventing a disease, causing other complications and the original vaccination was providing protection without a booster. 

Personally I think the vets are caught between the rock and the hard spot because if they tell you not to vaccinate they will be sued if your animal contracts the disease and if they over-vaccinate and it can be connected to the loss of your pet they may also be sued. The pharmacuetical companies certainly are going to push there products and the poor dogs can't tell anyone they started feeling sick right after there last shots. The veterinary business are in deed businesses and their buildings are getting fancier and fancier and have been showing signs of very lucritive operations. They can't make it without a customer base and the annual shots keep bring you back for more money to be poured into there businesses. Many vets pay their employees on a commission type basis that rewards bigger invoice totals. There is much money to be made with what they can tell you is a necessity.


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## Alasse (Jan 20, 2007)

My dog is done every year...we have parvo and a few cases of the other type nasties around, especially parvo as rotties are more prone to it....i would NEVER forgive myself if he was put through having either of those illnesses. I'd much prefer to be safe than sorry.

Also i would not be permitted to go to obedience classes without him having his vaccinations


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

I've always had the puppy series and rabies. After the one year shot, my vet does rabies every 3 years, parvo every 2.


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## Poodlemaniac (Nov 23, 2006)

Our vet, who I totally have the utmost respect for told us that studies have shown to possibly indicate that there may be some relationship to AIHA and vaccinations. However, the studies appear to show that cases of AIHA and vaccinations are those that dogs have been vaccinated with 30 days have come down with AIHA...not all but some. Ongoing intensive studies are underway and it may be a while before anything concrete comes out. So, in the meantime, I will not have our dog get any vaccinations other than rabies. But that's just my feelings.

Andy


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## Dogged (Nov 19, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover---It worries me how much hatred for vets that you seem to have. I know part of the grieving process is anger, but you seem to be taking this to the extreme with a seeming hatred of veterinarians who are necessary for all of us to obtain care for our animals. In all my 22 years working for 5 different vets, I have never seen or heard of any that pay their employees on a commission basis. Veterinarians are people too, and as such, can be good and bad people just like anybody. I will not say there aren't vets out there who overcharge or pad the bill, but many of them are really just trying to have a successful business that will support their families and employees, and be able to provide a high standard of care to their patients and the clients who love them. It is an expensive business to keep running. There are alot of start up and overhead costs to running a hospital. I see over and over again how so many people seem to think it is such an awful thing for a vet to be able to make a living. That if he/she can drive a reasonable car and keep a roof over their childrens head and food on the table, it is a sign of utter greed. Then of course the vet is a saint when they save your dog. I don't know of any other profession where there are such extremes of thought about somebody just trying to make a living.

Think about how expensive human hospitals are. Vets are supplying alot of the same care at a much lower price. But since that usually comes straight out of your pocket instead of being dealt with by insurance companies, the vet is villified.

I agree that overvaccination is a problem, but I have seen a huge turn around in the profession in general on this in the last 20 years. Most vets that I have heard of have gone to every 3 years on adult animals. No not all yet, but it is changing. In fact it surprises me how much has changed.

I just don't know what you are trying to gain by badmouthing vets and the profession, since I know exactly where you are going to turn when your next animal is sick, and you will expect them to have the most state of the art, up to date equipment and drugs available for whatever it is your animals needs.

Poodlemaniac, I would seriously do alot of research into this subject before deciding to not vaccinate your dog at all. Your dog is a poodle, and so I imagine goes to the groomer, so is around other strange dogs. If your groomer is accepting your dog unvaccinated, then that means your unvaccinated dog will be around other strange unvaccinated dogs which a recipe for possible disaster. I vaccinate my adult dogs every 3 years. I think that that is reasonable.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Okay Dogged, I finally got your attention and I do not hate vets but would like you to understand that the yearly vaccinations are possibly killing our animals. 

I have the utmost respect for the vets and the time they have invested in their educations, business and equipment. I just question the reasoning for the yearly vaccinations and the real need for them. I was merely trying to get a point accross that the re-vaccinations for the same thing may not be necessary. 

I am extremely angry with myself and not the vets because I wasn't educated in the harm of over-vaccinating and I put the blame on myself for the death of my dog, nobody else. Vets are merely doing what the pharmacuetical companies are telling them to do. Again they are caught between the rock and the hard spot. 

Yes we need the vets to administer the drugs that we can not purchase without a license. We need them for many reasons and I personally think the vet I use is second to none. 

I do although see huge veterinary centers that charge enormous fees for emergency services when it is a weekend or after normal office hours. I have used a couple of them and dropped a bunch of money for various reasons. They take your money up front and give you no guarantee of even a live dog after the payment is received. These facilities work on emotions simular to the funeral homes and make you feel guilty if you don't do all of their recommended tests. The uninformed client is butter in their hands. the better educated we can be , the better we can protect our animals from unneeded medical procedures. 

There are more deaths in human hospitals due to mistakes that we would ever want to admit and the uniformed people are again subjected to needless medical procedures that leave them vunerable to mistakes and fatal endings. Haven't you heard of people going into the hospital for minor procedures to never escape alive, I have... 

Dogged, I am happy for you that you have had so many oppurtunities to work for so many vets and I am certain you have unlimited knowledge. I also commend you for your loyalty to the trade and can see you are very geniune and caring. Please don't see my posts as a war against vets but see it for what I am trying to accomplish which is, seeing the truth about the need for multiple vaccinations for the same thing. Thanks for you hours of dedication to helping the people needing advice for sick animals. I am sure you have saved many dogs lives and been a great help to many. I wish I would have found this forum a long time ago and I appologize if I have offended you or your profession. Good day...........


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

German Shepherd Lover said:


> Until I lost my beatiful 8 year old German Shepherd three months after his annual vaccinations I would have said to always have them done. Since I lost him after being given a clean bill of health I can only conclude that the vaccinations had some effect on his contracting Lymphoma. His immune system was evidentually weakened and this terrible disease made a perfectly heathy, active, agile, lively, smart, beautiful and devoted dog lose 20 + pounds and stop eating, lose all strenght, despite the fact I was feeding him chuck roasts and venison three to four pounds a day when the predisone would help his appetite. There was nothing I could do to help him and all I ever did was fed him the best foods with no preservatives and took him to the vet as recommended and his yearly shots as recommended also. He was always very active and never had a health issue in his life.


Since you say you fed venison, did you ever look into the possibility that the cause of the problem might have been "chronic wasting disease" that is being found in deer and elk? I don't think they know enough about it yet to be sure whether it crosses species lines, but I do know they are/were warning hunters about their own safety regarding this disease.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

It really depends on what I am doing with my animals if they get vacinated. All my show horses get all their vac along with rabies very year and some of the vacinations they get every 3 months and all the other animals get their rebies very year I do every thing myself. I can vacinated every animal I own for less then what I can take one to the vet and have done.

Now I will tell you this. Even if you vacinate every year does not garentee that the animal will not come down with it. Even in a closed hurd.

I have a 16 yo dog who has not been vacinated in about 11 years same with my 14 yo dog and my 10 year old dog. THey never leave my property. THiws past year I lost a 16 yo cat who had not been vac for about 13 years. She hated leaving the house so she never went to the vet. Seemed harder on her then what might happen if she was not vaciated. now my show dogs get vacinated and they all had their puppy series and do get their rabies every year as I am so close to the state forest and there are alot of wild animals.

Are the shots safe? I will tell you what is safe one year will not be the next year. Even the manufactures will tell you that the vaciens are not 100% and that they do not know why some work well for some and not for others. I had a long and extensive talk to one manufature of a vacien along with one of the top vets at OSU this fall over the Neroligical form of EHV-1 in horses.

Must say it was very very interesting.

Heidi



German Shepherd Lover said:


> I was merely trying to get a point accross that the re-vaccinations for the same thing may not be necessary.
> 
> .


You are not vacinating for the exact some thing. Each form of each virous and desies mutates and the new vacien is the lattest in hopes they will have the correct thing. THis is probable one of the big reasons they do not always work. Just like geting a flu shot every year. The flu viorous mutats each year.

Does this mean I vacinate every year. No as I do not. Only my show animals get vacinated along with the breeding animals. I am very very cousous about what animals and people step foot on my property and also take procoutions that limit exposure to each animal.

There are many things that can be done to protect your animals besides vacinating them. however if they are out and about a lot and exposed to a lot of differnt animals I would vacinate. I would rather loose an animal over a $5 shot then loose them b/c I did nothing.

Heidi


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Our dogs are on a three year vacc schedule. No vac's over the age of 13 b/c I don't think they need them. They are vaccinated every year during their racing careers so by the time they get to us, they've had lots of vaccinations. With new adoptee's we vaccinate yearly for two years and then move them to a three year vaccination schedule.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Hello Dogadvocate , I appreciate your input and to answer your question, I didn't feed any venison to my dog until the last three weeks of his life. He had already lost over 20 lbs and would not eat anything other than roasts. He was always on the best dog foods but had completely lost any appetite. 

After the predisone and steroid injections he would regain an appetite but only for chuck roasts and prime rib. He wouldn't eat anything else, not even hamburger or cheese. I had a friend that had a freezer full of venison roasts that he ate himself and he offered as much as I wanted to help the dog and the pocketbook. 

Thanks for the advice and information.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> I have a 16 yo dog who has not been vacinated in about 11 years same with my 14 yo dog and my 10 year old dog. THey never leave my property.


Sorry to go a bit off track here, but what?? None of these 3 dogs ever leave your property? Kinda sucks for them doesn't it? Same smells, sights, sounds and company day in and day out.  I realize if you have horses, you likely have a lot of land for them to run about, but man, I could never restrict my dogs to just my property, even if I owned 50 acres. They so enjoy going to the Pet Stores, on trails and hikes in new places, swimming at the lake, even for some playtime when I volunteer at the Paws in the Park for my local humane society. I take them on trips with me too, and all of this would be too risky with no vaccinations, but things they really love doing with me.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

At times when they use to go to horse shows and all they really do not like it. They are really home bodies. I got my Salukie to be my horse show dog. She was about 3 months old and was a foster dog. Found out after I adopted her she hate car rides. She does like to go to the co-op with me to get feed but other then that she hates it. Use to puck by the time we got to the end of the drive. So she stays home most of the time. They have 2 acers fenced and on the one side of us has 3 labs that they run with up and down the line and then they all come in and sleep.

Now the 2 pups I have will and have gone places with me as I entend for them to be show dogs and do many differnt things. So fare they really seem like they enjoy it.

Heidi


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I am torn myself in regards to vaccinations. 

My breeder takes her dogs every two years to be vaccinated. However, she is very careful with what rabies' shots she allows her vets to give her dogs. 

My pup has had all of her shots- including her two years rabies. Orchid will be on the same schedule which has worked for my breeder, which is vaccinating every two years.


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## Sonia (Oct 30, 2012)

We had to put our beautiful 7 year old bulldog, Simon, down on Sunday due to lymphoma. I never connected the rabies vaccination and the lymphoma until today. We gave him his routine rabies vaccination in July.......three months later he was diagnosed with advanced lymphoma.....with absolutely NO SYMPTOMS that lead up to this. We tried low doses of chemo, which he responded well to, and then he just took a turn for the worse. This all happened over a two week period. I am absolutely shocked to say the least. I have read some of the posts with regards to lymphoma on this website and there is definately a common denominator.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Some vaccines prevent illness at an individual level (small pox, polio), but its more about preventing the disease from spreading, i.e. creating "herd immunity" - increasing immunity of the population as a whole so a disease has a harder time persisting in that population. When you (or your dog) gets ill, you are far more contagious than if your are exposed to a pathogen and don't get sick; not only does the pathogen able to replicate and proliferate freely (at least until your immune system kicks in), it also triggers immune responses that enable the pathogen to spread more easily (e.g. runny nose, sneezing). The less resistance the pathogen meets, the more particles are going to be sent into the air when you sneeze, and the more likely that pathogen is to find another host.

Most things people get vaccinated for are supposed to have booster shots ever 5-10 years to ensure effectiveness. People just don't do them because most of the diseases we get vaccinated against aren't very prevalent currently, so we just don't come into contact with them that often (although that is starting to change as fewer and fewer people get their babies immunized. :doh 

I really think it depends on the dog and on the environment. Obviously a dog that is already immunocompromized is going to have some issues with vaccinations, but I really don't know enough specifically about animal vaccinations to make any judgement. I know some places require rabies shots by law, which I think is more of a protection for humans than it is for the dogs (humans are more likely to be bitten by a dog than a wild animal). Other things, like bortadella, really depend on the situation. I suspect bortadella, which are highly contagious and persistent, also mutate frequently (like the flu virus), but I don't know if the vaccines are updated like the flu shot is.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

britishbandit said:


> Sorry to go a bit off track here, but what?? None of these 3 dogs ever leave your property? Kinda sucks for them doesn't it? Same smells, sights, sounds and company day in and day out.  I realize if you have horses, you likely have a lot of land for them to run about, but man, I could never restrict my dogs to just my property, even if I owned 50 acres. They so enjoy going to the Pet Stores, on trails and hikes in new places, swimming at the lake, even for some playtime when I volunteer at the Paws in the Park for my local humane society. I take them on trips with me too, and all of this would be too risky with no vaccinations, but things they really love doing with me.


Dogs vary. Some dogs do, in fact, enjoy that kind of things. Others do not. 

Also, I really don't see much benefit in dogs being socialized to the degree that socialization means dragging your dog everywhere you go with you. My dogs get out twice a week for a hike to different locations -for them, not me, because I would be happy never leaving my property- but otherwise they take the same walks, live in the same house and yard, and frankly don't much give a hoot and remain engaged, active, well adjusted, non-reactive, happy dogs. This, in my experience, is the life of most dogs - same walks, or set of walks, same places for 'special' trips, and things do, yeah, become familiar. That's not necessarily 'sad'. 

Projecting my preferences onto them, anthropomorphizing them and deciding that since I would love or hate a thing they must also love or hate it is the road to foolishness. I'd hate eating the same few types of food my whole life, too, but- Well, I'm not a dog and my dogs are not me. Thankfully for them, otherwise they'd eat a lot of fast food, sugar laden crap and never leave the living room.

I do puppy series, 1 year vaccinations and then every 3 years for rabies and DHLPP, like others here. I only do more frequently if we're boarding or traveling.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Bordetella once a year for my dogs, rabies every three after the first year, hw test once a year, dhpp as needed per titer testing after the series and one year vaccine.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

So I'm a new dog owner but a wildlife educator and I just want to throw into this discussion that many very common mammals carry disease like distemper (racoons); and that most urbanites don't realize coyotes have adapted and are very adept at quietly living in urban settings now with a large community being outside O'Hare airport. Point being, you can't keep nature away from your dog unless you go indoor only. To me, it is rolling the dice to not vaccinate but I am interested in this discussion continuing. I am trying to figure out if some vaccine manufacturers are better than others, and I have conflicting vet advice on how often once we're past the puppy shots we should vaccinate. For me, due to the distemper issue, that one will be annual.


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> Some vaccines prevent illness at an individual level (small pox, polio), but its more about preventing the disease from spreading, i.e. creating "herd immunity" - increasing immunity of the population as a whole so a disease has a harder time persisting in that population. When you (or your dog) gets ill, you are far more contagious than if your are exposed to a pathogen and don't get sick; not only does the pathogen able to replicate and proliferate freely (at least until your immune system kicks in), it also triggers immune responses that enable the pathogen to spread more easily (e.g. runny nose, sneezing). The less resistance the pathogen meets, the more particles are going to be sent into the air when you sneeze, and the more likely that pathogen is to find another host.
> 
> Most things people get vaccinated for are supposed to have booster shots ever 5-10 years to ensure effectiveness. People just don't do them because most of the diseases we get vaccinated against aren't very prevalent currently, so we just don't come into contact with them that often (although that is starting to change as fewer and fewer people get their babies immunized. :doh
> 
> I really think it depends on the dog and on the environment. Obviously a dog that is already immunocompromized is going to have some issues with vaccinations, but I really don't know enough specifically about animal vaccinations to make any judgement. I know some places require rabies shots by law, which I think is more of a protection for humans than it is for the dogs (humans are more likely to be bitten by a dog than a wild animal). Other things, like bortadella, really depend on the situation. I suspect bortadella, which are highly contagious and persistent, also mutate frequently (like the flu virus), but I don't know if the vaccines are updated like the flu shot is.


I personally only believe in 'natural' herd immunity, I do not buy into the vaccine-induced herd immunity propaganda that health officials seemingly use now as a fear tactic to make vaccines acceptable, but that is a personal belief and theory based off of many articles and hours upon hours of reading I continuously engage myself in on this topic. Like everything, there will always be two sides to the fence, both sides aggressively trying to prove their theories with all kinds of science, research and data. Hence why so many people are 'on the fence'. I decided a long time ago that I wasn't going to be on the fence anymore, I made my own informed decisions based off the years I spent educating myself and trying to gain as much knowledge as I could on these topics. Since I've tried to move towards a more 'natural' ways of living my life to the best of my ability, I do the same with my dogs. I've been vaccine-free for as long as i've been old enough to make my own decisions and think for myself (thankfully my parents weren't big on vaccines, and I didn't receive many as a child), and in that time up until now I continously spend time with family and friends who are very pro-vaccine and opt for regular vaccines, yet they are always getting sick with something or other. So they pump in more vaccines, and more health problems arise. Me? I've not had more than a few minor cold symptoms and seasonal allergies. I most certainly begin to feel when a cold or flu is coming on, but I never experience it to the full effect as my body fights it off.. NATURALLY.

Anyways, here is one article in particular that sort of explains my way of thinking when it comes to 'herd immunity'.. http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2...s-of-mass-vaccination-suzanne-humphries-md-3/

Of course, some will always question sources and research, but vaccine-induced herd immunity just does not make sense to me and appears to be some flaws in those theories too.

And as far as vaccinations goes with my dogs, well, if it wasn't obvous; I don't vaccinate. My dogs received their puppy boosters and that is all.. I also declined rabies and bordatella for my youngest, my Shiba has received 1 rabies and 1 bordatella for travelling/showing purposes when he was still with his breeder. I have not vaccinated him since for anything in 5 years..and don't intend to vaccinate him again for anything. I have opted out for the 1 year booster for my Kelpie mix, and at this time I intend to keep him unvaccinated. Fortunately, rabies is not yet a law here in Canada, or Alberta for that matter. If I lived in a rural area where my dogs roamed free I might opt for a rabies every 5 years or so. Definitely not 3 though, that's still too frequent IMO. I have done my research on rabies cases in Alberta and the risk here is very low, as their have been very few reported cases of rabies and for me, the risk of the vaccine itself is not worth the benefit. I have personally seen adverse effects of the rabies vaccine in dogs.. not pretty.

I'm also fortunate that any kennels or the breeders that I board my dogs at frown upon rabies and bordatella as well, and share same outlook on vaccines as I do. So their more than fine if my dogs are not vaccinated. As far as bordatella goes.. well like the flu, there are many different strains and mutations of the virus and its hit or miss if the vaccine will actually protect you from the particular strain you come into contact with... so to me, like the flu shot, bordatella vaccine is a scam. Kennel cough in dogs isn't the end of the world either, in some cases in can be bad but for the most part is nothing more than a common cold that humans suffer - and if their immune systems are good they fight it quick. I know this, my Shiba (whom was vaccinated for bordatella) actually got kennel cough once, I didn't treat him with medications or antibiotics just treated him naturally for some of the symptoms and within a week he had fought it, he hasn't gotten it again in the 4 or so years and being boarded at kennels unvaccinated regularily. Thumper has been boarded several times now too being unvacc. and he has yet to catch bordatella but I wouldn't be stressed if he did, IMO, it would help his immunity if he's exposed to it. 

Anyways, its always going to be a constant debate, and whatever side of the fence someone chooses to be on is fine with me, but make sure you are making well informed decisions and NOT just beleiving everything your vets or health officials tell you.... remember where their education on these topics is coming from or being funded by, do you trust everything pharmacuetical companies pump into education systems as far as information and data? If you do.. that's great, I personally don't, so I choose to educate myself a little and all I would recommend is for everyone to do the same. Make a decision that YOU feel comfortable with, and don't feel pressured because people say its good or bad. Do your own research and follow your gut.. what's good for one person doesn't neccessarily mean its right for someone else. And yes, to an extent, each person or their pets may be exposed to different risks or factors, it really does vary and depend on different scenarios from person/dog.


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## WestieLove (Jan 29, 2012)

Vaccines can be a difficult topic, there are so many concerns about overvaccinating. 
To me vaccinaiton depends on the life style of your pet. I wish titres were less expensive, these would be the ideal before boostering any pet. 

I choose to keep up with vaccinations because it seems I am in an area for diseases like kennel cough, parvo, lyme disease are frequently seen and both dogs come with me to work and this puts them even more at risk to be exposed to these diseases so I certainly keep up to date with vaccines. I have seen the worst of the worst with parvo and kennel cough so if I can prevent this in my pets I am certainly going to. My dogs were vaccinated at 7wks, 11wks, 15wks and rabies at 16wks. They get 1 year boosters. Then I vaccinate for DHPP/Rabies every 3 years. I also vaccinate both dogs annually for Bordetella and only Lily is vaccinated for Lyme disease due to reactions with topical products. Rabies is required by law in Ontario, Canada and it should be.

I am vaccinated for everything - including rabies because of my career. I am a very healthy person. I have no serious health conditions, no serious illnesses apart from maybe the common cold every year or two. Getting vaccinated doesn't mean I am going to have less of an immune system then someone who has not kept up with vaccines. There are much more factors.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I used to get the annual DHLPP here and the 3 year Rabies (required by law in this area) I was told by my vet that there has been at least 6 cases this summer of Heartworm in my area. So I test for HW annually.

After the death of Leeo ... and him having a huge stomach mass ... deemed probable cancer and his pancreatic neucrosis ... I began thinking more seriously about these yearly vaccinations. It really made me wonder and search my gut feelings as well as scientific research.

I now have my dogs scheduled for an annual Lepto ... due to my area. I am having the DHPP/Rabies vaccinations administered every three years .. and monthly HW preventative ... as well as a topical flea and tick preventative.


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

I get vaccines as needed. If a vaccine can be given every 3 years, rather than yearly, then I do that. I also do the heartworm test yearly - it affects and kills too many dogs in my area not to.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

PackMomma said:


> I personally only believe in 'natural' herd immunity, I do not buy into the vaccine-induced herd immunity propaganda that health officials seemingly use now as a fear tactic to make vaccines acceptable, but that is a personal belief and theory based off of many articles and hours upon hours of reading I continuously engage myself in on this topic. Like everything, there will always be two sides to the fence, both sides aggressively trying to prove their theories with all kinds of science, research and data. Hence why so many people are 'on the fence'. I decided a long time ago that I wasn't going to be on the fence anymore, I made my own informed decisions based off the years I spent educating myself and trying to gain as much knowledge as I could on these topics. Since I've tried to move towards a more 'natural' ways of living my life to the best of my ability, I do the same with my dogs. I've been vaccine-free for as long as i've been old enough to make my own decisions and think for myself (thankfully my parents weren't big on vaccines, and I didn't receive many as a child), and in that time up until now I continously spend time with family and friends who are very pro-vaccine and opt for regular vaccines, yet they are always getting sick with something or other. So they pump in more vaccines, and more health problems arise. Me? I've not had more than a few minor cold symptoms and seasonal allergies. I most certainly begin to feel when a cold or flu is coming on, but I never experience it to the full effect as my body fights it off.. NATURALLY.


It is certainly your personal choice whether or not to vaccinate (yourself of your dogs). I will also agree that public health officials (of which I will soon be) also do a poor job of properly informing the public. And I agree that pharmaceutical companies are greedy bastards (most health professionals would also agree). 

I'm a scientist and a realisty at heart and try to take an evidence-based approach. There is plenty of peer-reviewed scientific evidence for vaccine-induced herd immunity, and for the effectiveness of some vaccines. The pros and cons need to be weighed carefully in every situation, for every disease and situation. Do I think everyone should get every vaccine just because public health officials say so? No. Do I think anyone should completely discount getting a vaccine because the media says so? No. I think it is important to do the research, and weigh the benefits and risks of each vaccine and whether it is appropriate in the situation at hand. Not all diseases are good candidates for vaccination (food and mouth disease, HIV), but that does not mean that vaccination never works (small pox, polio, rabies).

For instance, I agree with your assessment of rabies (in our area) and bortadella vaccines; vaccines are most effective against high-risk or high prevalence diseases. Rabies is deadly (~100% mortality), but, as you pointed out, exceedingly rare where we live so the benefit of vaccination is low. In an area where rabies is much more common, the benefit of rabies vaccination increases. Bortadella is highly contagious and mutates regularly (as we both mentioned), but has a very low mortality rate, and "kennel cough" (which is assumed to be caused by Bortadella bronchiseptica) is often caused by other pathogens*; thus the vaccine isn't necessarily beneficial at this time, or for your dogs or my dogs that are in good health. However, B. bronchiseptica belongs to the same family of bacteria as whooping cough, and recent evidence indicates that it is starting to show up in humans  where it causes lower respiratory infections including pneumonia. This is to be expected - pathogens are always looking for new hosts, and dogs and humans are beginning to live closer and closer together, more often. If B. bronchiseptica becomes more prevalent in humans, with evidence for transmission from person-to-person and dog-to-person, then perhaps bortadella vaccination should be revisited. (Additionally, it might be more beneficial in dogs who are immuno-compromised for whom kennel cough could be seriously harmful).

If you've done the research, I don't need to get into an in-depth explanation of how the immune system works. Suffice to say, the immune system reacts faster to pathogens that it has encountered before, even a low doses (such as in a vaccine). The quicker your immune system reacts to the pathogen, the less likely you are to get sick. The less likely you are to get sick, the less likely you are to pass on the pathogen, as a lot of modes of transmission for infectious diseases are actually immune responses to the pathogen (like I said before: coughing, sneezing, runny nose).

*If your neighbor doesn't get sick, they can't pass it on to you.*

Weighing risks and benefits is what medicine and public health is all about. I just wish we taught the public about it better.  Unfortunately, matters of health isn't as simple as X Causes Y. For example, hygienic practices are by far the most important factor that's contributed to the decrease of human infectious disease in the last 100 years. However, it has been suggested that our strict hygiene regimens and clean surroundings have also increased autoimmune disorders and possibly skin cancer. 

E.g.: the media constantly suggests that there might be a linkage between autism and vaccination, but the original study published in the Lancet by Dr. Andrew Wakefield that put forth this theory was retracted because it was deemed to be scientifically invalid. No only was Dr. Wakefield was paid large sums of money as a consultant for an anti-vaccination lobby group that was putting together a lawsuit against MMR (measles mumps rubella) vaccine produces, the group was also petitioning for Dr. Wakefield's newly developed measles vaccination to replace MMR. There was also strong evidence that he manipulated the data put forth in the original publication in order to get any significant results. The autism-vaccine linkage has since been seriously debunked, but somehow that's never been in the news....

This kind of media representation, and lack of critical thinking happens constantly. Its why I don't trust any health claims made by any media source, *especially* if they don't refer to the original research article they're citing. Which happens way too often.

* on average only ~20% of flu-like illnesses are actually caused by influenza virus (CDC). This contributes to the misconception that the flu vaccine doesn't work (it does work, but only against influenza virus).

I'm not trying to convince anyone either way - like I said before, the choice should depend highly on your individual situation, and how you perceive the risks and benefits. I'm just trying to help people make informed decisions. Unfortunately there are a lot of reasons why articles that are published online are not published in peer-reviewed journals. And, if you're not prepared to listen to your own doctor why would you listen to a doctor on the internet, where its far easier to fake credentials and post whatever you want.


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

I think my schedule for vaccines is every 3-5 only yrs. Never really paid attention seeing as I prefer to do puppy shots and after initial vaccines only as needed for boarding purposes. I have one here now that has not had vaccines in the 2 1/2 yrs. Since we acquired him another that just got her's for the first time in 3 1/2 yrs and my 2 yrs old just received his last booster for the next few years. (I might add that he was not vaccinated at all until 10 months of age.)


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

WestieLove said:


> Rabies is required by law in Ontario, Canada and it should be


Speak for yourself, I believe in rights and freedoms to do with my own personal property as I wish. No one, including the gov't, will tell me what I should or shouldn't do when mine or my dogs health is concerned. I certainly hope you never have to experience the very severe long term affects the rabies vaccine can cause, otherwise I'd be willing to bet you'd change your opinion on it in a heartbeat. There are ALWAYS risks, but everyone deserves the RIGHT to choose what they feel is best.. it absolutely should NOT be the governments decision, IMO


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

This is what I was reading about the rabies vaccine when I decided to change my dogs scheduled vaccinations. I had a dog whom lived for 17 years with just one rabies vaccination. Maybe I was lucky ...... This is a link about the "Rabies Challenge Fund" It changed my my mind.

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2008/06/18/20/


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> I'm not trying to convince anyone either way - like I said before, the choice should depend highly on your individual situation, and how you perceive the risks and benefits. I'm just trying to help people make informed decisions. *Unfortunately there are a lot of reasons why articles that are published online are not published in peer-reviewed journals.* And, if you're not prepared to listen to your own doctor why would you listen to a doctor on the internet, where its far easier to fake credentials and post whatever you want.


One of these reasons being that the pharmacuetical companies, gov't and other large corporations make damn sure it doesn't happen, its called money. They even eat their own when push comes to shove. Like the case in the late 50's early 60's when Dr. Eddy discovered the SV40 virus in the kidney cells of monkeys which were used to develop the Polio vaccine, and when Dr. Eddy reported these findings and it leaked that the Polio vaccine was contaminated with the SV40 virus, she was quickly stripped of all credentials and fed to the media wolves. So no, I try very hard to not believe everything I read or hear especially when money hungry corporations or government have a hand in it. I was brought up this way, I was taught to listen to my instincts, and that's what I do. Of course I gain my knowledge from various resources, I talk to holistic vets, I have vets in my family.. I listen to my doctor, doesn't mean I take their advice. Everything I read in the media I take with a grain of salt as everyone should, but I use it all to form my own conclusions, but I especially don't trust anyone when money and power is concerned. Credentials these days doesn't mean a whole lot when you question where they're credentials are coming from in the first place, which I do. I question a lot, thats why I really just do my best to make my own informed decisions and do what I was taught to do.. follow my gut. But yes, I can most definitely agree with you in the sense that it is each individual is entitled to their right to choose what they feel is best for them and their pets based on their situations and any associated risks involved. I just hate when people are 'bullied' or fear mongered into doing something without being told what risks are associated.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not painting all doctors/vets with the same brush.. I know there are few out there that are actually trying to help clients make unbiased, informed decisions when their health and any risks are concerned.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

PackMomma said:


> One of these reasons being that the pharmacuetical companies, gov't and other large corporations make damn sure it doesn't happen, its called money. They even eat their own when push comes to shove. Like the case in the late 50's early 60's when Dr. Eddy discovered the SV40 virus in the kidney cells of monkeys which were used to develop the Polio vaccine, and when Dr. Eddy reported these findings and it leaked that the Polio vaccine was contaminated with the SV40 virus, she was quickly stripped of all credentials and fed to the media wolves. So no, I try very hard to not believe everything I read or hear especially when money hungry corporations or government have a hand in it. I was brought up this way, I was taught to listen to my instincts, and that's what I do. Of course I gain my knowledge from various resources, I talk to holistic vets, I have vets in my family.. I listen to my doctor, doesn't mean I take their advice. Everything I read in the media I take with a grain of salt as everyone should, but I use it all to form my own conclusions, but I especially don't trust anyone when money and power is concerned. Credentials these days doesn't mean a whole lot when you question where they're credentials are coming from in the first place, which I do. I question a lot, thats why I really just do my best to make my own informed decisions and do what I was taught to do.. follow my gut. But yes, I can most definitely agree with you in the sense that it is each individual is entitled to their right to choose what they feel is best for them and their pets based on their situations and any associated risks involved. I just hate when people are 'bullied' or fear mongered into doing something without being told what risks are associated.
> 
> And don't get me wrong, I'm not painting all doctors/vets with the same brush.. I know there are few out there that are actually trying to help clients make unbiased, informed decisions when their health and any risks are concerned.


There are actually peer-reviewed journals for non-pharmaceutical-based (allopathy, naturopathy, etc.) disciplines as well. In fact, I think you'd find that the number of peer-reviewed journals has exploded in the last few years, with improvements with the internet. And there are a lot of open-access journals (some of which are peer-reviewed, some of which are not) for which any and all articles published are accessible for free and for which the publication fees are paid entirely by the author. I have yet to see a journal that did not also require a disclosure of conflicts of interest. If you do not supply a disclosure your work won't get published and if you lie about it (as Dr. Wakefield did) the repercussions are quite severe, including being black-listed from the research community. And now a days, its pretty easy to find out who has non-academic for-profit affiliations. 

I don't know why people think journals are in big pharma's pockets. I know several reviewers for several major journals, and they, nor any of their colleagues that I know of have ever worked for big pharma. Is it because studies about the side effects of certain drugs never get published...? but that's because the *pharma companies never submit them for publication*. Journals can't publish papers that aren't submitted for consideration for publication. I'm sure a lot of journals would LOVE to publish side effect information on drugs, but the manuscripts are just never submitted.

I guess since I have an inside view of the process (both in writing MS and helping my boss review them) I know that most journals aren't in the pockets of Big Pharma. Most of the big ones are run by scientific NGOs and Professional societies/associations. Does that mean they're 100% unbiased? No, but nothing ever is.


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

Abbylynn said:


> This is what I was reading about the rabies vaccine when I decided to change my dogs scheduled vaccinations. I had a dog whom lived for 17 years with just one rabies vaccination. Maybe I was lucky ...... This is a link about the "Rabies Challenge Fund" It changed my my mind.
> 
> http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2008/06/18/20/


Thanks for posting this, Abbylynn.. good info in there. I have witnessed severe side affects of a rabies vaccine personally of which are documented here. It definitely changes the way you think when you or someone you know dogs becomes affected by it.

As I mentioned, IF my dogs were in an environment were rabies was at a higher risk, I would opt for vaccines every 5 - 10 years, depending on the dog and the situation. I could LIVE with that. Three years is definitely too frequent IMO.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

PackMomma said:


> Speak for yourself, I believe in rights and freedoms to do with my own personal property as I wish. No one, including the gov't, will tell me what I should or shouldn't do when mine or my dogs health is concerned. I certainly hope you never have to experience the very severe long term affects the rabies vaccine can cause, otherwise I'd be willing to bet you'd change your opinion on it in a heartbeat. There are ALWAYS risks, but everyone deserves the RIGHT to choose what they feel is best.. it absolutely should NOT be the governments decision, IMO


I suppose the government shouldn't require people to stop their cars (their personal property) at stop signs either? Or be able to tell you where you can fire your gun (also your personal property)? Think of all your rights that are being violated!

I do think rabies vaccine should be required for dogs; it's a matter of public safety. I've known people who lived where rabies in dogs was common and it ain't pretty. I do wish they'd update the requirements to every 5-7 years but I can live with every 3 years. I'm aware of the side effects (my first dog had some very weird reactions to vaccines) but it's better than having to worry about rabid dogs everywhere you go. If a few individuals wish to engage in civil disobedience, more power to them, but I still think it should be required so the majority will do it.


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## PackMomma (Sep 26, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I suppose the government shouldn't require people to stop their cars (their personal property) at stop signs either? Or be able to tell you where you can fire your gun (also your personal property)? Think of all your rights that are being violated!
> 
> I do think rabies vaccine should be required for dogs; it's a matter of public safety. I've known people who lived where rabies in dogs was common and it ain't pretty. I do wish they'd update the requirements to every 5-7 years but I can live with every 3 years. I'm aware of the side effects (my first dog had some very weird reactions to vaccines) but it's better than having to worry about rabid dogs everywhere you go. If a few individuals wish to engage in civil disobedience, more power to them, but I still think it should be required so the majority will do it.


No, entirely different and that is why I specifically said 'where mine and my dogs health is concerned'. Gun laws and traffic laws are yes, public safety, but there aren't really any adverse health risks with those laws are there? Rabies requirements are yes in place for public safety, but when the health and well being of my dog are at risk I don't agree with it. IF there is high risk of rabies in a particular area then fine, but every 3 years is too frequent IMO . Also I'm speaking from a personal standpoint where there have been very few cases of rabies in this province let alone my area and here the chances of my dogs getting a vaccine related illness are much higher then getting rabies so it is absolutely not worth the risk here for me, and in that sense I would be outraged if I was forced by law to vaccinate for rabies given the statistics and that is why I initially mentioned that I'm very thankful it is NOT a requirement here and I hope it stays that way. Unless of course like I said my dogs were exposed to a higher risk like living in rural areas, etc i would be okay with vaccinating every 7 years but that is currently not the case.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

So, is it that the distemper combo vax isn't as big of a deal as the rabies vax? I ask because I tell a lot of people to never skip the distemper due to the large number of wild animals that are infected and biting isn't the way of transmission, it is through either respiratory secretions or from close contact with droppings. Im in Michigan for reference, and we have a lot of distemper.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Personally, I think the distemper/etc. vaccine is just as "dangerous" as the rabies vaccine. It was always the distemper vaccine my ferrets had a reaction to. But fortunately the distemper vaccine gives immunity for a long time.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

So what is worse, distemper or the vax? I personally dealt with about 24 distemper sick raccoons this year, several hundred in my township alone for summer months. In my area it would be ridiculous to assume your dog wouldn't be exposed. Still I don't want to give poor advice...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

ajw said:


> So what is worse, distemper or the vax? I personally dealt with about 24 distemper sick raccoons this year, several hundred in my township alone for summer months. In my area it would be ridiculous to assume your dog wouldn't be exposed. Still I don't want to give poor advice...


As I said, the distemper vaccine confers immunity for a long time. How long exactly depends on the individual dog, but it's generally safe to say that it lasts a lot longer than one year. I would never advise anyone to not vaccinate against distemper or parvo (or rabies), but giving the vaccine annually is some serious overkill.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

Ok! That makes sense. Is titer testing generally expensive?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ajw said:


> Ok! That makes sense. Is titer testing generally expensive?


this is where I Titer... Only $45 I believe pluss the cost of the blood draw ($10) from your vet and shipping. I think last year it only cost me around $20 for shipping through fed ex, but you have to make sure you get the right bag to ship blood in. 

So the grand total might have been around $80.. just a little more than the price of going in for an office fee ($40) and getting a shot ($25)


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I've been giving my dogs 3-year vaccinations since the mid-80s with no problems that I've seen. I just gave my 12 yo his vax, and hope to give them again when he's 15 and 18 

... I see no scientific reason against titering... I choose to vax. But I do believe in one or the other.

BTW, I also do monthly heartworm all year long. I don't do flea and tick meds, except when needed ... this year over the summer (an unpleasant surprise) and 10 years ago. 

I also got a flu shot


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

At the end of the day, I believe there is no definitive right/wrong, good or bad answer. People need to do what they believe is best for their own personal set of circumstances, based on how much of an impact ( the pros and cons of ) the information out there has on them..


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

hanksimon said:


> I also got a flu shot


Lol. I definitely don't do any of the shots for me! 

I personally think it's a pharmaceutical industry rip-off. I read something about it recently.. wish I could remember where. My memory sucks beyond belief.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well. . .I got a tetanus shot. Don't want to mess with tetanus. But I won't get a flu shot either (they have to guess about what strain to make so chances are it's not goiing to be effective for this year's Flu anyway). And I don't think I've ever had actual Influenza. I've had "the flu" but probably not The Flu.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I do believe initial vaccines are very important. I like to get the puppy vaccines then the one year boosters, then I follow the law in regards to rabies (every 3 years).

But any vet giving YEARLY vaccines is just trying to make money, or they are clueless and naive. 

All research shows vaccines last 3-7 years ++... probably the lifetime of the dog. 

The only vaccine required by law is rabies, and in most places, that is every 3 years. All dog daycares/etc around here accept titers once past the one year vaccines.

Vaccines ARE very important. But year after year? Pointless. Your dog is not ANY more protected getting vaccines every year than if they got them every 3 years for example. Because it's the SAME exact vaccine. There is no difference between "1 year" or "3 year" or whatever. So getting your dogs vaccinated every year is not protecting them in any way and all you are doing is adding unnecessary chemicals into their body year after year. You are either immune or you aren't.

AAHA protocol is currently every 3 years. Any vet who was not an American Animal Hospital Association creditied hospital wouldn't be near my dog anyways, and I would never choose them as my pets primary care givers. Not every AAHA acredited hospital follows it, but they should. Currently, the schedule is every 3 years, however it's been proven they last much longer. Yearly vaccines have been proven to be harmful and unnecessary, even by the biggest animal association that vet practices should follow by. *"immunity lasts at least 5 years for distemper and parvo, and at least 7 years for adenovirus." * https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/CanineVaccineGuidelines.pdf http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2011/11/15/new-canine-vaccination-guidelines/

The thing is, a lot of vets don't want to give up that money they get from yearly vaccines. Let's face it - most dog owners wouldn't want to fork up the dough to get titers and a majority of people ONLY take their dogs to the vet when they need vaccines. It's a HUGE money maker for them. Of course a lot are going to continue recommending yearly. Now, an owner like me, I'll be at the vet at least once a year anyways for annual check-ups, bloodwork, etc so they'll still get their money from me. But an average owner... does not do this. The only reason my mom ever brought her dog in was "because she needs updated on vaccines". It's made into like ... a MUST thing, and it's the only reason that dog ever saw a vet. 



> Consider this… One dose of rabies vaccine costs the vet about 61 cents. The client is typically charged between $15 and $38, plus a $35 office visit. The markup on the vaccine alone is 2,400 percent to 6,200 percent—a markup equivalent to charging $217 for a loaf of bread. According to one estimate, removing the one-year rabies vaccination and consequential office visit for dogs alone would decrease the average small vet’s income from $87,000 to $25,000—and this doesn’t include cats or other vaccinations.
> 
> According to James Schwartz, author of Trust Me, I’m Not a Veterinarian, 63 percent of canine and 70 percent of feline vet office visits are for vaccinations. Clearly, radically changing the vaccine schedule for dogs and cats would result in a huge economic loss for any veterinary practice that is built around shots. And chances are the vaccines you are paying so much for are creating even more income for vets, because the adverse reactions and other medical issues caused by the vaccines keep Fluffy coming back often!
> 
> ...


The thing with minimal vaccines is that it isn't some new aged idea that gets spout around forums... there's actual research and scientific evidence that has been being researched for many many years.


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