# My dog was attacked today and the other dog's owner was bitten when breaking up fight



## Bowie Valentine (Apr 22, 2010)

I have a confident, dominant, working breed that has learned manners over time and has turned out to be an amazing rescue dog. By learning her manners I mean she doesn't feel like she needs to bark in other dog's faces to get them to interact and play with her, plus she knows the command "play nice" whenever I feel she is getting over stimulated chasing a smaller dog, etc. and responds really well. So, we have done a lot of work and I'm really proud of her. In fact, Just yesterday I took her for her first herding lesson and they said that she was a natural and was very confident in her work. Seriously, I love this dog. 

So, my world nearly ended today. We frequent the dog park every week, but for whatever reason this one dog park out of the two we've been to, there's always a resource guarder that starts in on her. The only reason I took her back to this park today was because my meet-up group from meetup.com was meeting there and I wanted to be social with them, so we went. I ended up not actually meeting anyone from the group (that I know of) so that was kind of a bust, but still I was very social with owners and vigilant, trying to spot dogs that might not enjoy the company of my dog. 

I should say that my dog is not a resource guarder, if i want to take food out of her mouth like a stray bone that she's found, she of course gives me the look like "please don't take it away" but lets me take it right out of her mouth. She also shares balls nicely and is totally ball obsessed. Well, one minute she's drinking out of the same water bowl with a golden retriever, happily slurping away, and 5 minutes later she's at another water bowl and of course, a resource guarder goes after her, trying to be dominant. Did i mention that my dog is also a dominant dog? So when a dog thinks he owns the water bowl at the dog park and snaps at my dog, she snaps back. Basically, it looks like the dogs are killing each other. My dog has good bite inhibition and these spats have never resulted in yelping or either dog getting hurt, so overall, it's been a dominance spat that gets worked out.

So why am I posting this? Because the other owner grabbed his dog by the collar, and while he was doing this my dog wasn't finished showing dominance and ended up biting him. Dominance game over. She didn't break the skin, but she still could have been put to sleep. I was in shock when the guy told me she had bitten him. For one, he should have never tried to break them up that way because that's how you get bitten. My understanding is if you're going to get involved you need another knowledgeable person so that both of you can take the dogs by the hind legs to pull them away, which is exactly what I did, but this guy grabbed his dog by the collar. Ultimately, I am dumbfounded. Her life flashed before my eyes. The guy was very understanding of the situation, thank god, and even admitted that his dog resource guards with his other dog at home and is dominant, but then also said "but your dog is very dominant". 

I really don't want to be chewed out. This has been a pretty traumatic experience for me knowing that I could have lost my dog. I'm starting this thread because I don't know what to do. My dog has never started these spats and I could never see her backing down from one either. I also know my dog well enough to know that she's extremely dominant and acting on pure, hot blooded instinct when these situations occur, and pulling her away by her hind legs is the only way to stop them safely, or letting them play out, because verbal commands are drowned out in the heat of the moment. But I can't run the risk of this happening again and another ignorant dog owner putting themselves in a position of getting bitten, because ultimately my dog pays the price. So is there any way... is there anything I can do... I want my working dog to be confident, and if she were submissive she wouldn't be who she is. I don't even really know what my question is. Besides avoiding other dogs and their owners, how do i avoid this happening again? What can I work with my dog on?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Nothing to work on because the chances of meeting other people who mean well when they jump in to stop a fight is more probable than meeting one at a dog park with correct experience. I'm not gonna chew you out, just say with that type dog (your's admittedly dominant) You have a dog that maybe does not start fights but will finish them, we all have choices. With a dog of that type I would not be going to a dog park because my dog would then pay the price for my choice and it's not worth gambling over a dog park. That's just me though.

You lucked out on this one and send a thank you card to the other owner who did not report your dog.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Bowie Valentine said:


> ...... and 5 minutes later she's at another water bowl and of course, a resource guarder goes after her, trying to be dominant. Did i mention that my dog is also a dominant dog? So when a dog thinks he owns the water bowl at the dog park and snaps at my dog, she snaps back. QUOTE]
> 
> Soooooo, .... exactly which dog thinks they own the water bowl , which dog is the actual resource guarder ???
> 
> ... makes me wonder.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Personally, I wouldn't take the dog to a dog park again - too risky. I have two dogs who can be 'jerks' around other dogs, so I watch where we go and who we're around. This weekend camping, I made sure the dog at the next camp wasn't anywhere near when we went by that way - it's a little yappy in your face kinda dog (on a flexi too!) so didn't risk it. We also just did sits and waits when it came to other dogs nearby. I'm sure the other dogs are fine, but I'm not going to risk it on my dogs that they are. They have been fine at the dog park as long as they can play ball, and a 'hey' from me will remind them not to kill another dog for looking at the ball, but we've still had a few issues (one was an intact dog who decided to claim Storee, and kept snapping at Ticket if he got too close to her, and after half an hour of the owner putting the dog on leash, walking 20 feet then letting him off to have him come right back and snap at Ticket, he told him off quickly, without a lot of fuss, and went back to playing ball).

I find there are a lot of idiot dogs and owners at the dog parks, who have no clue on things and how to deal with them (like grabbing a dog by the collar when another dog is snapping at it).

Lana


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## Bowie Valentine (Apr 22, 2010)

Petpeeve, I don't appreciate, nor do I understand why you would quote me and leave out the first part. My dog lets a small cat sit near her when she eats. She has no problem sharing water bowls with dogs. I even said the other dog owner said his dog is a resource guarder and started it. Didn't I also say I can take a bone out of her mouth? She's good around kids and never jumps on people. She's a good dog, not an aggressive dog that's trying to protect her resources. Protecting your dignity and dominance is a lot different than protecting resources, even though they might usually go hand in hand. She doesn't tolerate humping and always tells off a dog in a moderate way when they try to, and when the other dog owner doesn't get it under control, I always move to another area or leave. Other dogs can be irritating towards my dog for a few minutes and she never starts a brawl, and it's only a few minutes because either the other dog owner leaves or i take my dog away. I don't get how people can think dogs posturing over food and toys is okay, especially in their own home with their other dog like this guy. 

I've been very vigilant going to the dog parks, but the one we were at is just too small. I'll stick to my usual park with huge open fields and water fountains with endless water rather than having to bring your own water into a small park with a lot of dogs. At this park all of the regulars know not to break up squabbles, except verbally.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm very sorry this happened, but your dog wouldn't be put to sleep for biting but not breaking skin on a human. And she wouldn't be PTS if he didn't have to go to the hospital for a wound and didn't file a report either. 

You have a dominant dog who has proven she will retaliate. This is the type of dog people like myself have to leave the dog park because of, and this is the type of dog that people like myself have to be on the lookout for, ALL THE TIME.

This type of dog, IMO, does not belong at a dog park, no matter your 'control' or intentions. Too risky for her, you, other people/children, and other dogs.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Nothing to work on because the chances of meeting other people who mean well when they jump in to stop a fight is more probable than meeting one at a dog park with correct experience. I'm not gonna chew you out, just say with that type dog (your's admittedly dominant) You have a dog that maybe does not start fights but will finish them, we all have choices. With a dog of that type I would not be going to a dog park because my dog would then pay the price for my choice and it's not worth gambling over a dog park. That's just me though.
> 
> You lucked out on this one and send a thank you card to the other owner who did not report your dog.


I agree completely. 

OP, I have one of those strong guardian breeds too. My dogs also have manners and do not resource guard from me but they will around another dog (a strange dog) Guess where we do not hang out? I do not take my dogs to dog parks to me there are simply too many variables that you cannot control. Anyone can bring a dog that is dog aggressive or will start fights. I know my dogs will end the fight, I am not willing to put my dogs at risk for a short time of fun. In a lawsuit happy world, The Rottweiler and it's owner will lose. I won't chance it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

wvasko's right on the money with this one. No issue with your dog - only an issue with people who don't understand dogs. Sadly, you'll find a lot of those at dog parks IME.


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## Noah's Mom (Mar 29, 2010)

I am sorry that happened. 

We have loved going to the dog park this summer, but I bypass 2 small dog parks to get to a large 30 acre park with mowed walking trails. This park also has a separately fenced smaller swimming area inside it that Penny LOVES, but I think we will soon be bypassing that swimming area and sticking to the trails where we have no more than passing meetings with other dogs and owners, or maybe even forgoing the dog park altogether. 

Just 2 weeks ago my dogs were swimming, and a couple came into the small swimming area with 3 toy dogs and a Lab. One of their toy dogs was going nuts, barking and charging my dogs, and actually NIPPED my 50 lb Shar Pei mix (who ignorant people assume is a pit bull). The owner of course just stood there shouting "Be nice!" My poor Noah just stood there as if in shock at this dog's horrible manners, but all I could imagine was one of my dogs getting fed up and killing that obnoxious little dog with one good bite and being labeled vicious. 

We left the area at that point, as did the owner of the one other dog that was swimming at the time. I hate to not bring them to an activity they love so much, but especially now that Penny (our French Mastiff puppy) is growing larger every day, it is just so risky.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Bowie Valentine said:


> Petpeeve, I don't appreciate, nor do I understand why you would quote me and leave out the first part. My dog lets a small cat sit near her when she eats. She has no problem sharing water bowls with dogs. I even said the other dog owner said his dog is a resource guarder and started it. Didn't I also say I can take a bone out of her mouth? She's good around kids and never jumps on people. She's a good dog, not an aggressive dog that's trying to protect her resources. Protecting your dignity and dominance is a lot different than protecting resources, even though they might usually go hand in hand. She doesn't tolerate humping and always tells off a dog in a moderate way when they try to, and when the other dog owner doesn't get it under control, I always move to another area or leave. Other dogs can be irritating towards my dog for a few minutes and she never starts a brawl, and it's only a few minutes because either the other dog owner leaves or i take my dog away. I don't get how people can think dogs posturing over food and toys is okay, especially in their own home with their other dog like this guy.
> 
> I've been very vigilant going to the dog parks, but the one we were at is just too small. I'll stick to my usual park with huge open fields and water fountains with endless water rather than having to bring your own water into a small park with a lot of dogs. At this park all of the regulars know not to break up squabbles, except verbally.


Well I think you got yourself to blame, because after your explanation your dog does sound a tad on the rough side. also on this forum there have been a few stories about cats and dogs that got along great until they didn't. Kinda like a fairy tale turning into a scary tale. It usually turns into a dead cat. You are basically new to forum and nobody knows just how experienced you are when you are explaining your dog to forum. After you are on for a while and your advice to others on how you are solving dog problems are read you can then be evaluated/believed. Your real dog experience will become apparent. Through the almost 3 years I have been a member there have been many 1 to 10 dog experts on DF. This does not make them bad people, just not very experienced compared to others. My personal thoughts is that reading a dog properly takes a few years and many/many dogs. I'm just sayin'..


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## Robrowe (Jan 25, 2010)

Let me start firstly by offering empathy for the incident and that your dog will not be put down even if she broke the skin and caused injury. She would however in most locales be deemed a a vicious animal with necessary confinement practices implemented which would include being banned from public places and only allowed out of the house if wearing a muzzle on the way to the pen that has to have a concrete bottom and a top for containment, some places require a secondary escape deterrant, basically a pen within a pen. 

Im not going to yell at you but simply offer sound advice. If you know your dog is dominant (a side stepping lingo for aggressvie ) and you are not willing to do the responsible thing and train your dog to be submissive then you should not venture out into public places, dog park or neighborhood walks etc. Confidence and dominance are not the same. Like already mentioned those of us who go out of our way to ensure we have dogs that are calm submissive are always on the look out for those who are not and are forced to be responsible and leave public places to avoid confrontations with dogs who are not calm submissive. The behavoir of a dog in the home does not reflect on how they will behave around strangers. This behavoir must be taught in all scenarios and early socialization with other animals before they are big enough to do any damage sure makes it a lot easier. Saying you want your dog to be confident and dominant is like sending your kid off to school and telling them to be a bully.
Your Dog can be calm submissive and still be confident. I have been down this road before rescuing a Rotty that was taken from owners who wanted their dog to be dominant and told very much the same story that you did. It didnt stop there, where it stopped was when a young girl about 9 years old decided she wanted to play with the pretty dog inside the fence and was mauled nearly losing one of her arms that was used to drag her around the yard like a ragdoll. I gave this dog a second chance and had to confine it as stated above until I could prove that it was no longer a threat. When I was done several months later another dog could come up him and start trouble and he would turn away from them, Im not saying tuck his tail and run, but simply turn away and not engage the agressor.
I love dogs and I want my animals to be a pleasure to be around by everyone, This and dominance can not be used in the same sentence as never the twain shall meet.

So in closing there are one of two paths to choose...
Do nothing with your dog but at least be a responsible enough to keep her out of public places.
Be completely responsible and remove the dominance.

BTW I have never heard the term dominant and resuce dog used in the same description either.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Nothing to work on because the chances of meeting other people who mean well when they jump in to stop a fight is more probable than meeting one at a dog park with correct experience. I'm not gonna chew you out, just say with that type dog (your's admittedly dominant) You have a dog that maybe does not start fights but will finish them, we all have choices. With a dog of that type I would not be going to a dog park because my dog would then pay the price for my choice and it's not worth gambling over a dog park. That's just me though.
> 
> You lucked out on this one and send a thank you card to the other owner who did not report your dog.


^^^^this. 

All the advice here has been pretty much the same. This dog that you love does not belong at dog parks. Heed that advice which you asked for and you will have your dog for a number of years. 

Dog owners, upon seeing their dog in a fight, will do what they can to protect their dog. Even experienced owners forget the backward like a wheel barrow thing and will grab a collar. If your dog nails a person in the heat of the moment your dog is all done. There was a story here a couple of years ago where someone's relative had a German Shepherd at a dog park and someone elses dog went for if.. and the guy reached in for a collar and was so badly lacerated he lost the use of his thumb. His German Shepherd, who was not the perpetrator, died in that incident. Dog park fights are not to be taken lightly and ANY dog that CAN be a problem (won't back down being a problem) should not be at a dog park. 

Since you have had to use the Wheelbarrow method on your dog to break up an altercation more than once he is not a dog for the dog park. You, as the owner, need to be clever enough to realize that your dog does not belong at dog parks and cease putting him at risk.


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## Bowie Valentine (Apr 22, 2010)

I really appreciate everyone's responses. All of you have been very thoughtful in your responses and I appreciate your sincerity and even empathy.

I would like to note that I have done my research on the breeds that my dog is mixed with as well as dog training. More so than many (unfortunately). Do I know everything about dog behavior? No. Do i know everything about australian shepherds, border collies, cattle dogs, and other herding breeds? Mmmm, almost. But I do know a lot about them, including that every dog is different. So no, i don't have any seniority on this site, but I do have a passion for my dog which has led me on a knowledge path to understand my dog and other dogs, even before all of this occurred. That being said, I am on this forum to make sure that I'm being as responsible of a dog owner as I know how to be and can learn to be.

I'm not a big fan of the whole Caesar Milan craze. Alpha rolls, etc. Although if my dog were seriously deranged from poor training, etc. then I might see things differently. What I need to know is how can I help my dog live in harmony with other alpha dogs without all of the alpha rolls. It is a fact that she gets along with most dogs. She enjoys playing with all of the neighborhood dogs and doesn't even mind the neighbor's cranky female bulldog who doesn't like her. In fact, she pays no attention to the dog. So what I'm working with is a dog that gets along with most dogs, even has respect for her elders like my friend's 14 year old lab who gave her a firm few barks to let her know he wasn't into playing and that he owned the joint (by respect I mean now she happily co-exists with him in his yard while they walk around calmly, wagging their tails in unison). Like I said before, she doesn't go around picking fights. So why have there been these few dogs who she can't accept dominance from? She doesn't tolerate humping and will give dogs a quick, mild correction to let them know she wont have it. From my perspective this isn't aggression on her part, it's a correction. What I see is her doing something another dog doesn't enjoy, like her checking out another dog's toy, and that dog OVER-correcting her aggressively because that line a drawn of it not being a warning but a serious telling off. Maybe this is just the way some dogs correct, by making a big production. But the problem is my dog engaging in that big production and the both of them going at it. 

Because my dog gets along with such a huge variety of dogs I don't think it's fair to say she should be kept out of public places. Perhaps small, packed dog parks are the worst idea ever, but camping trips, festivals, concerts in the park, etc. are going to continue to be a part of her's and my lifestyle. I could lock her in the house all day, no exercise, no socialization for the rest of her life and no one would ever have to worry about breaking up a dog fight with her involved ever again. But the reality is I am willing to do what it takes to mold her behavior. The problem is I can't find the material online to figure out how to do this. I don't think she should have to roll on her back every time a dog lunges at her, but if I can teach her how to handle herself better in these types of situations so that they don't escalate into dog fights, I want to do that.

Any suggestions? How do you make a dog more passive in situations where dogs are resource guarding so that the resource guarder doesn't feel threatened enough to lunge and start a fight?

P.S. I am going to throw this out there... After these incidents happen, the quarrel has ended, I tell my dog calmly but firmly "No! You do not do that! No! That is Bad!" after I have my dog by the collar and am looking her in the face. Then I have her follow the command "sit", and if she refuses I give her a more firm "sit" command and walk "into her" so that she has to back into a sit. Then I give her some more talking of the same "You do not do that. That is very bad." Then I take her for a "time-out walk" on leash away from the other dogs. Not a tense walk where she's in trouble, but a time-out walk. I am a huge animal lover and throwing around my dog and intimidating her is not first on my list of things to do, but at the same time I'm not afraid to show her that I am in charge because I do believe dogs need to believe that their people are in charge. So please don't imagine me throwing my dog around by her collar or anything like that. What I want to know is, if theoretically this problem arose again, how might some of you suggest I handle the situation differently after the fact? I have used that method because it's been recommended to me and it's something I've read to do in situations where you need your dog to understand that they've done something very wrong (this isn't something I do when my dog gets into the cat food. She understands a simple "Eh eh! No!" for that move while I realize I ultimately set her up for that failure). 

Thank you again for your thoughtful responses.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Honestly, I wouldn't take this dog to the dog park anymore. Not all dogs can go to the dog park - I can't take my dog Maisy. She can be extremely ill-mannered with strange dogs. Everything is fine if another dog wants to play with her, but she IS one of those dogs that, if another dog doesn't want to play with her, becomes obsessed with it and follows it around barking in its face. I guess to solicit it to play/interact. But obviously this isn't a good strategy on her part and what really happens is that dog gets sick of her bad manners and snarks at her. 

She's never actually been in a fight but if I continued to take her I think it would probably just be a matter of time before she either provoked another dog beyond snark OR reacted too strongly to another dog's snark... and even if it never happened her behavior is no fun for the other dogs. Honestly it's no fun for me to have to be hypervigilant the whole time we're there, either. It's a shame because Pip is absolutely perfect at the dog park and I'd love to bring them both, but it's just not worth tempting fate IMO. She has play dates with dogs she knows well and gets a lot of on-leash walking, but no more dog parks.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> P.S. I am going to throw this out there... After these incidents happen, the quarrel has ended, I tell my dog calmly but firmly "No! You do not do that! No! That is Bad!" after I have my dog by the collar and am looking her in the face. Then I have her follow the command "sit", and if she refuses I give her a more firm "sit" command and walk "into her" so that she has to back into a sit. Then I give her some more talking of the same "You do not do that. That is very bad." Then I take her for a "time-out walk" on leash away from the other dogs.


Not at all effective, and your timing is off. The time to talk to your dog - to intervene so as to prevent your dog from going off on the other dog - is BEFORE he does it, not after. You may know what you're talking about, but your dog doesn't. Oh, he'll be aware of the fact that you're not pleased, quite possibly a little PO'd, or at least upset, but he won't have a clue about what. 



> What I want to know is, if theoretically this problem arose again, how might some of you suggest I handle the situation differently after the fact?


Roll up a newspaper and hit yourself over the head! LOL (JK) Here's the deal. The problem needs to be avoided, period, which means keep your dog out've the dog park. Then you won't need to worry about how to handle it after the fact, because it won't be happening. 

I have a male (Standard Poodle) who came to me 8 years ago with behavioral issues, dog agression being one of them. I worked with him through desensitization and counter conditioning, and kept his exposure to other dogs he would likely react to very minimal, and within the distance of his comfort level. I never allowed a situation to get to where he reacted, because I became an expert on his body language, so I could de-escalate him quickly and easily. I had him under my control at all times. I'm able to take him with me just about everywhere I go, and we frequently encounter other dogs at outdoor activities, festivals, and bar and grilles. I have two other Standard Poodles (bitches), and frequently foster. In 8 yrs., he's never gone after another dog. Do I take him to the dog park? NO WAY. I can control him, but I can't control the other dogs at the dog park.


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## Jetta (Jul 23, 2010)

If all your replies are just "don't take it there" thus basically give up you'll never fix this then Zi'd find somewhere else to seek advice. There is a behaviour here that you need to train your dog in a way to correct it, I don't have the answere for you but I've seen enough dogs turned around to know that there's lots of options for different problems and you certainly shouldn't just give up and never take her again that's nonsense.

Keep looking keep reading, buy some books or speak to some local behaviourists and I'm sure you will find the right methods for training your dog well enough to be able to bring her back to the dog parks with confidence.

Apparently your answered aren't to be found here but don't give up. It sounds like she already has a lot of respect for you and your position over her so that's a great start you just need to know how to use it for this issue.

I do hope you find your answers x


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## Bowie Valentine (Apr 22, 2010)

Jetta said:


> If all your replies are just "don't take it there" thus basically give up you'll never fix this then Zi'd find somewhere else to seek advice. There is a behaviour here that you need to train your dog in a way to correct it, I don't have the answere for you but I've seen enough dogs turned around to know that there's lots of options for different problems and you certainly shouldn't just give up and never take her again that's nonsense.
> 
> Keep looking keep reading, buy some books or speak to some local behaviourists and I'm sure you will find the right methods for training your dog well enough to be able to bring her back to the dog parks with confidence.
> 
> ...


Jetta, you're awesome. Not because you are saying something I want to hear, but because you're saying exactly what I was about to say. I can diffuse an out of control dog situation easier than I can get the people to chill out on forums. I have a problem. I am looking for a solution. Maybe even some professionalism. I politely thanked people for giving their comments on my thread but I keep getting responses from people who don't know anything about correcting behaviors that need correcting. So maybe this isn't the place to seek advice for this specific issue. Fortunately though I have received some excellent advice on this forum in the past on how to get my dog to settle down her play methods with other dogs so that she isn't annoying them and she's really come around to being a mature "teenager" rather than a rebel. We've made leaps and bounds beyond places most people don't even try to go with their relationships with their dogs. In fact, I have such an amazing relationship with my herding breed that I'm currently trying to find work as a trainer. I joke all the time that it wouldn't be fair of me to use my dog as an example in the training classes I would teach because she's such a smart, eager to please herding breed. At the large dog park I frequent where I'm able to play with my dog alone in a huge open field while dogs pass by and come make friends with her, people will always say to me "wow, what a well trained dog" while in the back of my mind I'm thinking "if only they knew how easy it is to train a working dog". The reason people are inclined to say my dog is well trained is because she's completely focused on me the whole time and she has a HUGE vocabulary. No, she doesn't speak (other than she can say "ma ma" and "hum berger"), but she knows exactly what I want from her when I spew out anything from a full sentence to a few short, quick noises like "ah" or "eh"... I've been training her in tracking... This dog is like a super wonder dog and we've only been together for 5 months.

Her first herding lesson was a week or so ago and the trainer said she was a natural with a lot of confidence in her work. We've started agility at the huge dog park and soon we'll be taking classes. This dog was not meant to be banned as a dangerous dog who sits in a cage all day. This dog was meant to excel at everything she does, and so far she has.

So tell me again that i shouldn't take her to the dog park again. Way to go, you have an opinion. But now tell me why no one can tell me how to work with her on the problem? Ignore the issue and it goes away? That's not what i'm doing. I'm here talking about it, ready for guns blazing. But I'm also expecting some substance. More than a "well if your elbow hurts when you bend it, don't bend it" type of fix. It doesn't matter if I don't take her to the dog park anymore because I'll still be taking her to conformation classes and competitions, agility classes and competitions, herding lessons and competitions, possibly flyball, etc. etc. etc. This is the life my dog was meant to live and that's specifically why I chose HER. Not just any herding dog, but HER. So ignoring the problem isn't an option. There is a way to modify her behavior and I will find it, whether it's here or somewhere else. 

Jetta, thank you for standing up and being a true dog enthusiast who recognizes that it is dog owners that place limitations on their dogs, not the dogs themselves. Thank you also for noticing that i was trying to make it a point that i don't have a dog that walks all over me and that i do have a respectful relationship with her. She is completely bonded to me like a typical working dog and she lives to please me. Though we wouldn't have this relationship if I didn't give her lots of rules followed up by lots of fun. 

"Not at all effective, and your timing is off. The time to talk to your dog - to intervene so as to prevent your dog from going off on the other dog - is BEFORE he does it, not after. You may know what you're talking about, but your dog doesn't. Oh, he'll be aware of the fact that you're not pleased, quite possibly a little PO'd, or at least upset, but he won't have a clue about what."

Not to be rude, but how's your reading comprehension? My dog isn't the resource guarder. She went for a drink of water and was attacked. No matter how well you can read a dog's body language I guarantee you that you would not have seen this coming. It was as simple as my dog walking towards the water bowl and the other dog lunging at my dog. While the dog lunged at my dog attacking her she didn't roll over and play dead, she defended herself and fought back. This wasn't a blood battle, it was a resource battle for the one dog and a defending position for my dog. Correcting my dog before the event took place was not an option because only the other dog's owner would know that that could happen apparently, since he even told me his dog is a resource guarder. My dog shares water with other dogs on a nearly every day basis. I couldn't possibly foresee this happening before it happened, and in fact it just upsets me more that if anyone shouldn't be going to the dog park it's people with a dog like his who are truly aggressive guarders. On the same note, I know he picked my dog to "teach a lesson" because my dog is an alpha dog amongst her peers... an alpha dog who doesn't have to go around starting fights to prove herself. In fact, for those of you who love to compare dogs to wolves, isn't there something about the alpha wolf not needing to start fights, only the insecure wolves start fights to try to take over the position of alpha? So then wouldn't my dog be responding naturally to being challenged by putting those dogs back in their place? 

I don't really care what the latest fad is to describe dog behavior, or what the popular lingo of the week is... Alpha... Dominant... Aggressive... I just want my dog to be safe without going into hiding. So if you can comment on that without suggesting I kill my dog with isolation, then it would be great to hear from you. However, if you just want to take a "dominant" position with me, save it for a passive/submissive.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Do I take him to the dog park? NO WAY. I can control him, *but I can't control the other dogs at the dog park*.


That says it all.


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## Jetta (Jul 23, 2010)

wvasko said:


> That says it all.


Then none of you should ever take your dogs to a dog park by that reckoning lol.

Bowie I like you and that last line cracked me up. I love my dogs to bits but they do need more training it's a continual process really and my Papillon still insists on howling at strangers untill she's happy that they smell acceptable to her. She does shush when told if she's taken objection to the postman now though. We've gone a few steps back since she's been with pups but now that they're born she's calmed down again and we're cracking down on her again. Loki's a doll but does like to play deaf now and then when something smells really interesting.

I do wish we had dog parks here though but the only place to go to be fairly sure you'll meet other dogs is the big pet store.

I was really surprised to see nothing but dismissive and defeatist attitudes though that really is a shame to be honest.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jetta said:


> Then none of you should ever take your dogs to a dog park by that reckoning lol.
> 
> Bowie I like you and that last line cracked me up. I love my dogs to bits but they do need more training it's a continual process really and my Papillon still insists on howling at strangers untill she's happy that they smell acceptable to her. She does shush when told if she's taken objection to the postman now though. We've gone a few steps back since she's been with pups but now that they're born she's calmed down again and we're cracking down on her again. Loki's a doll but does like to play deaf now and then when something smells really interesting.
> 
> ...


Well the "never take dogs to a park" is always a personal choice. It's like anything you do in life. It's like watching the movie "Jacka*s" there's a lot of people doing some very dumb things and that's their privelige. When I was a kid I was jumping from one roof to another roof (1 story bldgs) and I did not make it and ended up with a concussion (which might explain some of my replies) I can't blame anybody because it was my choice. Stuff just happens.

I would assume that all these advice giving replies are not followed as though they were written in stone and must be obeyed. Because some times there are some very stupid answers/replies that common sense would dictate that you run from your PC quickly or log off.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

No one has said you should go into hiding or cage your dog all day. All people have said is that you should not take your dog to dog parks. 



> *Poodleholic* _said:_ Do I take him to the dog park? NO WAY. *I can control him, but I can't control the other dogs at the dog park.*
> 
> 
> 
> > *WVasko* _said:_ *That says it all.*


AMEN. 

That being said, you asked for advice. Advice was given. You do not like that advice and will do as you will.

Oh yes.. one last thing.. my dog is not aggressive but I do not take her to dog parks. I like my dog a lot and do not want her to become dog aggressive by coming into contact with a dog like yours. No need to put my dog in any sort of danger. I like her that much.

BTW I take my dog everywhere with me. Concerts, parades, ball games, playgrounds, hiking... every place I go that dogs are welcome (including friends' houses). She if very well behaved (we are working on our Open Obedience title) and is welcome wherever we go. She is a 'social butterfly' and an ambassador for her breed (GSD). 

I do not turn her loose in a dog park. I like her too much for that.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Then none of you should ever take your dogs to a dog park by that reckoning lol.


I don't.. many of us don't.

It is extremely irresponsible to bring a dog who has redirected aggression on to a human (even if that human was stupid) to a dog park. The dog as well as other dogs and humans are being put at enormous risk. Next time some moron grabs your dog's collar and gets bitten, you might not get so lucky and you'll have a lawsuit on your hands. 

Or worse, your dog will cross paths with the wrong dog and get in to a serious fight.

People with this kind of attitude - who think that their dog with behavior issues has any place at a dog park - is exactly why I don't go. Because I am NOT going to put my dog at risk.

And there is no reason why you can't compete with a dog like yours - if you're comparing agility trials to a dog park, well, then I really think you need to visit a few more agility trials. Resource guarding (or "not backing down" or whatever) isn't an issue because at an agility trial, no one is sharing toys, water bowls, food, etc. The dogs are under control. No strange dogs are coming up and sniffing your dog and vice versa, because all dogs are on leash or in their crates. It is a controlled environment.

The issue is one of control. You essentially have NO control at dog parks. 



> Any suggestions? How do you make a dog more passive in situations where dogs are resource guarding so that the resource guarder doesn't feel threatened enough to lunge and start a fight?


I don't think there really IS a way, unless you can teach a default behavior where the dog always comes to find you when someone's messing with her. But I'm really not sure you can do that.. and even if you could, it wouldn't be foolproof. The inherent nature of your dog is such that she won't back down from a fight if another dog starts one. It's similar to rehabbing a dog aggressive dog IMO - you can change the behaviors, use conditioning to make the dog accept the presence of other dogs, but that doesn't mean that the dog aggression doesn't exist anymore. (And to be clear I'm not calling your dog DA, just drawing a parallel betwee different temperament traits.) "Not backing down from resource guarders" shouldn't be an issue at all if she's a working dog.. the only way I really see it being an issue is if you bring her to the dog park. So there's really no need to keep dangerous and unpredictable places such as dog parks out of her life if she's so busy with tracking, herding, etc. anyway.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

This is the type of reason I have slowed down my dog park time (havnt even been there in almost 2 months)And I LOVE it there, so does Blaze. But there are to many dog owners who bring in dogs who are way to dominent. And it always turns in to a fight some where with their dog and another dog. Dogs are always trying to pesture and domininate Blaze, probably becuase he is intact. He is submissive enough to let it all go, and not lash out and try to out domininate them back, he will walk away. 

Sounds like your dog will not, thus should NOT be in a dog park. This is the recipe for a fight. as you have already seen, and now a human was bit in it. Yes he grabbed his dog. he did what pretty much any dog owner will do. I know the wheel barrel is supposed to be the best way to break up a fight. When my dog got attacked by 3 GSD's and a akita all at the same time, I didnt think of the wheel barrel method. I though "OMFG MY DOG!!!!!!!!!" ran out there and started kicking and grabbing dogs. yes Im lucky I didnt get bit, and Blaze wasnt ripped to shreds (he was pretty beat up though).

I would 110% stop taking her to the dog park. Form a group of friends and meet up with them and their dogs. 


Jetta said:


> If all your replies are just "don't take it there" thus basically give up you'll never fix this then Zi'd find somewhere else to seek advice. There is a behaviour here that you need to train your dog in a way to correct it,


So by using other people and dogs as test dummies? There is no real need to train her out of it. keep her with friends and families dogs, and slow one on one meetings with other dogs with out issues. There is always ways to fix this with out taking her to a dog park to let her try and learn on some one elses poor dog. What if it was your dog? and this owner brough hers in, a person next to you, their dog growled at her for looking at her ball,and a fight started, and your dog ended up in the middle? then what, would you give the same advice?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> So by using other people and dogs as test dummies? There is no real need to train her out of it. keep her with friends and families dogs, and slow one on one meetings with other dogs with out issues. There is always ways to fix this with out taking her to a dog park to let her try and learn on some one elses poor dog. What if it was your dog? and this owner brough hers in, a person next to you, their dog growled at her for looking at her ball,and a fight started, and your dog ended up in the middle? then what, would you give the same advice?


I love the above as it says so much. Through the years in dog training I have met a few people that had dog problems and I have always had the same answer, some things are trained out and others just change the environment. That being said after talking to quite a few I came away with the idea that there was an ego trip involved, they were gonna train this out of their dogs or else. In 45 yrs I have never been to a dog park, spent 14 years in competition and never had dog fighting problems with any dogs I started/trained etc. 15 years personal protection and never had a DA dog problem etc with dogs I started and finished. As I said above this done without dog parks. 

Please I am not throwing the ego trip at anybody on DF because I don't personally know enough about people here to make that kinda statement. Just people that I have met and talked to might have had the ego problem.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Bowie Valentine said:


> So tell me again that i shouldn't take her to the dog park again. Way to go, you have an opinion. But now tell me why no one can tell me how to work with her on the problem? Ignore the issue and it goes away?


Ok, I'll tell you again... I don't think you should take her to the dog park and I'll go a step further and say it's extremely irresponsible for you to do so. The dog park is a place for dogs and people to get enjoyable exercise and socialiazation. The dog park is NOT a place you go to endanger other people and dogs (your dog has _bitten_ someone, I don't care if it broke the skin or not) while you try to train your dog in an uncontrollable environment. It doesn't matter how well trained your dog is outside of the dog park. Is there a chance your dog could go to dog parks every day for the rest of its life and never have anything happen? Absolutely. But if I were one of the other people at the park you frequent, I wouldn't appreciate you taking risks with my dog and myself. It isn't all about you and your dog.



Jetta said:


> I was really surprised to see nothing but dismissive and defeatist attitudes though that really is a shame to be honest.


Acknowledging the limitations of a dog in a specific situation and being responsbile is not the same as being defeatist. In the case of my dog, I did talk to a couple of different professional trainers quite extensively before I made my decision not to go any more. When your dog's behavior is situational and it hinges on other dogs' behavior it's difficult and largely unacceptable (IMO) to set up opportunities to practice, aside from being an uncontrollable situation.

All just my opinion, of course.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> ..I came away with the idea that there was an ego trip involved, they were gonna train this out of their dogs or else. In 45 yrs I have never been to a dog park, spent *14 years in competition and never had dog fighting problems *with any dogs I started/trained etc. *15 years personal protection and never had a DA dog problem *etc with dogs I started and finished. As I said above *this done without dog parks*. ...


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!!!!

When the voice of experience speaks (45 years of _successful_ experience), it is best to shut up and listen.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Bowie Valentine said:


> We frequent the dog park every week, but for whatever reason this one dog park out of the two we've been to, there's always a resource guarder that starts in on her. *The only reason I took her back to this park today was because my meet-up group from meetup.com was meeting there and I wanted to be social with them, so we went.*


I'm a tad perplexed .. sounds as if you actually knew better, but if it weren't for the meet-up group, you wouldn't have gone. 

Yet more recently in the thread, you display a strong determination to follow through with it. You feel your dog _should_ be capable of going there .. come hell or high water. 






IMHO the solution is obvious, ESPECIALLY if a person knows better to begin with ... >>

*"Some hills just ain't worth dyin' on"*

Call it "defeatist" all you want, ... I call it being "sensible", and knowing where to draw the line for your dog's welfare and well-being. Remember ... your dog doesn't make the choice to attend and be thrust into a potentially dangerous situation, YOU do.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS!!!!
> 
> When the voice of experience speaks (45 years of _successful_ experience), it is best to shut up and listen.


Well, thank you BUT just one thing to add, I'm still learning. Everytime I get anywhere near that "know it all" position in the dog training world some furry rascal comes along and smacks me in the head. It gets scary reading about people that do know it all because I got to figure with all the years training and if I am still learning about dogs it must mean I am truly not the brightest bulb in box.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The more I learn on a subject the more I realize how much I do not know. 

Dogs or physics.. it is all the same. Smart people recognize this strange phenomena that I call "reverse quantum knowledge pattern." The more you learn the more you don't know.

Fact is, change the words from "dog training" to "relationships" and then tell me all about 'expert knowledge' and 'knowing it all!' (I know.. not fair).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> The more I learn on a subject the more I realize how much I do not know.
> 
> Dogs or physics.. it is all the same. Smart people recognize this strange phenomena that I call "reverse quantum knowledge pattern." The more you learn the more you don't know.
> 
> Fact is, change the words from "dog training" to "relationships" and then tell me all about 'expert knowledge' and 'knowing it all!' (I know.. not fair).


Not gonna touch it, even I'm not that stupid.


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## Bowie Valentine (Apr 22, 2010)

Many MANY people don't even understand human behavior. For me, it's like a sixth sense understanding people's motives for why they do what they do, why they say what they say, etc. A lot of people don't have that. A LOT. High Emotional IQ's aren't something you come across every day. Fear is something you come across EVERY DAY. That's the society we're living in. 

Although there are times I don't understand why people do what they do, I can at least be the first to admit it. As far as dogs go, they're as unique as individual people. If you take the time to get to know them, figure out what works and doesn't work with them, then you must have a high emotional IQ. If you keep your dog from interacting with other dogs in general (what's the difference between a strange dog at a dog park and a friend's dog that you've never seen interact with another dog before? NOTHING), then I feel sorry that you either have a dog aggressive dog, or you're too afraid to allow your dog the enjoyment of other dogs. Do you not take your children to the grocery store either after 8 P.M. in the winter out of fear of being mugged as well? Better not let Jimmy go to school because he might get picked on and in a fight? 

The dog park I frequent is huge. So huge that my dog doesn't have to meet any dog I don't want her to meet. Not to mention there's a sense of community at this dog park. People just like you and me who will tell someone to either get their dog under control or get out. I get that a lot of people don't have this luxury at their dog parks and you should probably write to your congressman/woman about it because the dog parks here are doggy Disneylands. 

My dog did not maliciously bite a human being. People make mistakes and sometimes dog mistake hands for the dog that they're quarreling with. She does not have people aggression and it shows me how little some of you really know about dogs when you're talking about how my dog maliciously bit someone and is now a danger to people. If you put your hand down a snake hole what do you think happens? 

So apparently the answer is none of you have non-fear based answers. Accepted.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

So really, what you ACTUALLY wanted was for people to just say "Ok, keep bringing your dog, even though she bit somebody"? It doesn't matter if it "wasn't maliciously". Your dog bit.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Bowie Valentine said:


> If you keep your dog from interacting with other dogs in general (what's the difference between a strange dog at a dog park and a friend's dog that you've never seen interact with another dog before? NOTHING), then I feel sorry that you either have a dog aggressive dog, or you're too afraid to allow your dog the enjoyment of other dogs.


Where on earth did you get the idea that not going to a dog park equals not letting your dog interact with dogs in general? Or that it is impossible to see how friends' or neighbors' dogs interact with other dogs prior to letting your own dog loose with them? Or that two dogs in a yard isn't different than a bunch of dogs in the dog park?


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

> So apparently the answer is none of you have non-fear based answers.


I believe in setting up your dog for success. We do this with proper housetraining--don't give the pup full run of the house immediately, take him out frequently, etc. As the dog shows success, then you give more freedom.

That's what I would do here.

You have a dog who . . .



> My dog has never started these spats and I could never see her backing down from one either. I also know my dog well enough to know that she's extremely dominant and acting on pure, hot blooded instinct when these situations occur, and pulling her away by her hind legs is the only way to stop them safely, or letting them play out, because verbal commands are drowned out in the heat of the moment.


If I were in your situation, I would stay away from dog parks where all kinds of unknown dogs are, and set up small playgroups with known dogs who complement your dog's playstyle. If she does well in this scenario, take her around one or two other dogs as well. Little steps at a time. 

This isn't acting out of fear. This is *setting up a dog to succeed*.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Most folks come here wanting validation that what they are doing (or what they want to do) is correct. If they do not get that they are generally disappointed. 

Sorry.. *not validating that you should be taking your dog to a DP.* You should not. Figure it out or don't. YOUR choice. You want a magic answer. I have that for you. It is called "Elana's Training Dust." You can buy it from me for $19.95 and if you call right now I will double the offer.... 

Sorry you think I am afraid. I am not. I care for my dog and it would be a shame for the OTHER dog and dog owner if he elected to aggress with my dog. Not because my DOG would aggress back but because I WOULD. NO ONE HURTS MY DOG.. (or any other animal I own). 

I like my dog. She is also my property if we want to take it to the base levels. I believe in protecting my property. You don't want me to get angry. Really you do not. I do not want to get angry. I really do not. I avoid the DP. MY choice. No reason to set myself or my dog up. <shrug>


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## Jetta (Jul 23, 2010)

Xeph said:


> So really, what you ACTUALLY wanted was for people to just say "Ok, keep bringing your dog, even though she bit somebody"? It doesn't matter if it "wasn't maliciously". Your dog bit.


What was asked for was how to handle and control this retaliation behaviour so that they can go to the dog parks without there being a risk of this happening.

I've seen very little of this through the thread though.

Building her up to it with gradually bigger situations is one of the first helpful things I've read but there still needs to be some plan and method for changing her response to agression in other dogs but I'm sure there will be a way when you find the right professional to help.

Keep looking and keep trying 



Elana55 said:


> Most folks come here wanting validation that what they are doing (or what they want to do) is correct. If they do not get that they are generally disappointed.
> 
> Sorry.. *not validating that you should be taking your dog to a DP.* You should not. Figure it out or don't. YOUR choice. You want a magic answer. I have that for you. It is called "Elana's Training Dust." You can buy it from me for $19.95 and if you call right now I will double the offer....
> 
> ...


And we thought it was 'dog' agression that was the problem we were discussing.

There really are so many reasons I prefer dogs to people a lot of the time


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> My dog did not maliciously bite a human being. People make mistakes and sometimes dog mistake hands for the dog that they're quarreling with. She does not have people aggression and it shows me how little some of you really know about dogs when you're talking about how my dog maliciously bit someone and is now a danger to people. *If you put your hand down a snake hole what do you think happens?*


Well finally something I can agree with and I am taking my hand and thoughts out of this snake hole. I will leave the fighting to those of you with anti-venom kits. Have fun y'all


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

IMO bottom line to all this bickering is that YOUR dog is reactive whether it's the aggressor or not it is reactive and THAT kind of reactivity is unacceptable EVEN if your dog was engaged by another dog. If your dog would have simply walked away then this wouldn't have escalated and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Your dog CHOSE to react insted of walk away from a resource guarder, and IMO as soon as you saw another dog walking up to the bowl you should have removed your dog and not ASSUMED the other dog was also non-reactive or resource guarder. 

Everyone here is likely telling you to not take your dog to the park so that your dog doesn't establish a behavior of becoming reactive/defensive whenever confronted with another reactive dog that you CAN'T control and who's owner likely has no clue how to control it either. This would be PROactive on your part and removing the potential for serious issues to develop. Your dog is still a "teenager" which means likely under 2 which means she hasn't even entered into the stage of social maturity. Once she does enter into that stage of mental development is where you could stand to see a lot of these behaviors start to take shape if you don't teach her how to be non-reactive before reaching that stage. perfect example... my 2 pits, 6 mos apart in age, use to sleep on eachother until the younger reached the age of social maturity, then she decided she was gonna be #1 bitch, started fighting one day with the other pit and didn't stop. The mindset can change FAST in a type A dog (since I hate seeing Dominant dog throw around so casually since there really is no thing as a dominant dog just dominant gestures). 

I have a type A female dog, an english shepherd (an aussie with a tail pretty much) so I know a dog can act like a born leader (confident, self assured, and spot on when a command is offered), not turn away from a serious situation but also can be in one with out reacting aggressivly. She is a diffuser. If a situaion escalates, she goes belly up to help calm the other dog and show them she is not a threat, but only wanting to play. She is pushy in the pack, will bump the other dogs, or walk over them but never NEVER comes to teeth on them. This IMO is a much more stable dog to take to a park full of potentially reactive dogs and yes you CAN teach your dog how to be non-reactive but still retain those type A qualities that you like. It's all about teaching them what is acceptable and allowed, and if she feels that she has to be reactive whenin a confrontational situation then honeslty she doesn't conpletely trust and respect YOU as the leader who is constantly in control that has her back and will defend her to the end. NONE of my dogs will retaliate to another dog in my presence because they all KNOW that I will step in before it comes to the need for them to turn to teeth, and they will actually LOOK for me to diffuse hostile situations they might be in. They KNOW I got their back and will let NO harm come to them regardless, so in turn they defer to me. Honestly YOU failed your dog in this situation, first by letting her stay in a resource situation and putting her at risk to another dog, and second by letting it come to blows and making her defend herself rather than having her walk away before things came to teeth.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I agree w the sentiment here. Your going to meet dogs that get rough and guard at a dog park. If your dog is not one to back away when another is telling him to, you are taking a chance. regardless of who's fault you think it will ultimately be


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## Bowie Valentine (Apr 22, 2010)

Dog_Shrink, I appreciate your response. Perhaps the issue is that my dog is estimated to be about 2 years old and I've only had her for 5 months and that we haven't built a strong enough trust relationship. I would like to take that into consideration because now I can research how to build that trust with her. That gives me a foundation to work with at least.

I don't need anyone to kiss my butt and validate me. I am here to educate myself. This is a general statement that I'm making to everyone. Everything literally happened quickly and I had zero read before the situation happened. I failed my dog in not perceiving the danger and I'm here posting to see what I can do to see the dangers before they arise and to change my dog's response so things don't get out of hand again. This isn't even about dog parks!!! This is about my dog reacting to aggression with aggression. Not dog park dogs, ANY DOG. My dog could be herding one day and another dog might climb under the face and interact with her. Maybe a stray dog, maybe someone else's herding dog. Maybe even a friend's dog. The encounter could be fine, or the encounter could be exactly the same. There are a million scenarios outside of dog parks that can result in the same exact way. 

My sister has a rescue dog from hell that required a behaviorist. Unfortunately the behaviorist was from hell too, and fighting fire with fire didn't work. I've been able to break my dog of some pretty interesting habits, habits I had never heard of before, so my first choice is trying to find a solution myself. If I feel like i'm not qualified to perform the training methods, then i throw in the towel and let someone else. I'm not going to put her into bad situations until a dog or someone dies. I'm saying that if I can find a way to work with her on the problem then I'm going to work with her.

Dog_Shrink, I'm familiar with english shepherds. My dog is even friends with one at the dog park *ducks*. Beautiful dogs. How have you built the trusting relationship with your dogs that you have? I would love to hear more about this. My dog was found as a stray and was in two different shelters over 3 months, and we bonded right away. Since we have a "working dog relationship" I recognize the importance of really being in charge of these dogs, otherwise they'll take over because they're too smart for their own good, and i acknowledge that i possibly don't have the trust i think i do with her. So what are some good trust exercises you could suggest with my dog? I don't allow her in the kitchen when i'm cooking, i tell her to go lay down. Same if I'm eating, she listens to "go lay down" and never stares. I make her lay down and wait for her food until i release her with "okay". When we're playing fetch i throw in "sit" and "stay" commands which she eagerly does and even offers without me asking. I can tell her to lay down outside, then i can go inside the house, run around the house 10 times, and go back out where she's waiting for me in the same position in the same spot. No getting on the couch or bed without me inviting her up and she always listens when i tell her to get down. So, she has a lot of rules and she is very in tune with what i want from her. I've been equating this with a good, bonded relationship, but what am I missing to gain her trust? Perhaps my strong headed dog doesn't actually see me as the leader and that's why she's being defensive. 

Also, thank you Dog_Shrink for sharing your story about your pits. The reality is, I'm going to adopt another dog in the future as another companion animal and as a friend to my current dog, and I want this issue solved before I bring another dog into the home. Recently I allowed the neighbor dog (my dog's best friend) into our house as my dog didn't mind and they had just gotten done romping around and herding one another. I even taught that ole boy some new tricks while my dog enjoyed the company of her friend and showed no signs of distress when i was treating both of them and while he was in her territory. One dog is big enough of a handful and I want her to be the shining example for the new dog I bring into the home with no quarrels like your unfortunate experience, Dog_Shrink. Dog_Shrink, what did you do to make sure it didn't happen again between your pits?

Thank you again to those who have been thoughtful in their reading of my thread and thoughtful in response. I know the bottom line is that we're all passionate about our dogs so lets not let misunderstandings get in the way of this being a good forum. Truce.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Bowie Valentine said:


> Dog_Shrink, I'm familiar with english shepherds. My dog is even friends with one at the dog park *ducks*. Beautiful dogs. How have you built the trusting relationship with your dogs that you have? I would love to hear more about this. My dog was found as a stray and was in two different shelters over 3 months, and we bonded right away. Since we have a "working dog relationship" *I recognize the importance of really being in charge of these dogs, otherwise they'll take over because they're too smart for their own good*, and i acknowledge that i possibly don't have the trust i think i do with her. .


THIS is false. It's not because they're too smart for their own good, it's because of what they are... they are sheep herders which means they need CONSTANT direction from a handler. They are not bred to really think independantly ahead of you in the field like say a german shorthaired pointer would be. They are programmed to work on handler direction and when they don't get it they usually defer to instinctual protocol which means... my leader isn't here to lead me, they're inconsistant, which means they're undependable and untrustworthy so I might as well be in charge since someone has to do it, thats when you start to see challenging behaviors. Not backing away from a fight when there is an obvious avenue of retreat available speaks VOLUMES to me as to where a dog sees itself in this world. Entitled is one that comes to mind. 

Yuo have a super smart dog that is usually 2 steps ahead of you and always ready to snap to the moment you have anything to ask of it to the point of it offering you gestures to trya nd appease you which teels met here is some level of trust there since you ahve desire to please, but it can also be a pre crsary behavior of a type A dog trying to kinda "control and manipulate" a situation to garner reward. Like the dog whom you ask to sit that lays down anticipating the next command. No now he's in charge of the exercise and not you, you've lost control and "alpha" points in his eyes. 

The only thing I can say to help you build trust in your dog is to be a firm fair consistant leader that can temper the hard ass with the nurturer with out being a bully or overly harsh with your corrections. They are HIGHLY sensitive dogs despite their rough exterior and hard words or harder actions against them will leave lasting impressions. Treat your dog like the terminal 3 year old child in the regards that they need the same amount of education, love and discipline in order to become well balanced. 

As far as my pits went, well 1 was pure pit, 1 was pit dingo hybrid and 6 months older, but I had to have the pure pit live with my ex. otherwise they would have had to live in a crate and rotate environment and I would not put any dog thru that if it is avoidable. There was no accord to be reached between them. Bitches are unlike males who will only usually fight to get their point across, females will fight to the death to enforce their point of view. 

"Recently I allowed the neighbor dog (my dog's best friend) into our house as my dog didn't mind and they had just gotten done romping around and herding one another. I even taught that ole boy some new tricks while my dog enjoyed the company of her friend and showed no signs of distress when i was treating both of them and while he was in her territory. "

Just so you know, a 1 day couple of hours type play date thing is NOT going to really give you an accurate read of how your dog will be living with another dog 24/7. Your dog will have to see how much you take charge of the situations, and now much of it you let them "work out for themselves" (which btw shouldn't be very many instances you let them do that). Based on your amount of action (or inaction) will set the tone for how your dog will proceed to respond to the new dog.


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## Bowie Valentine (Apr 22, 2010)

I read the first line of your response and realized you took it too literal when I said "they're too smart for their own good." Excuse my playfulness and exaggeration. I wouldn't have working dogs any other way. "Too smart for their own good" was merely a joke. People still do that in forums, right? Now I'll go on to read the rest of what you've said...


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Bowie Valentine said:


> If you keep your dog from interacting with other dogs in general (what's the difference between a strange dog at a dog park and a friend's dog that you've never seen interact with another dog before? NOTHING), then I feel sorry that you either have a dog aggressive dog, or you're too afraid to allow your dog the enjoyment of other dogs..


My dog never stepped fot in a dog park until he was almost 2 years old. He has no agression or guarding issues what so ever, And he is a intact male, where most people will say are pushy, humpers, rude, and normally nasty towards other dogs. My dog socialized with friends dogs. and what is the difference.

-It was one on one.
-My friend can tell me any issues they have noticed with their dog, before they meet. 
-friend can tell you of any guarding issues they have, or any other such issues.
-we can meet on nutral territory.
-Since it is one on one, there is no "gang up" meeting so to say (where 6 dogs run up to greet the new comer)
You dont stand at the gate at a dog park, and ask owners all these questions before you enter, but you can ask a friend.

My dog hasnt been to a dog park in months. Unless you count the teeny little stamp of one we went to every day when we were in Edmonton 2 weeks ago, and even then, there were no dogs, not one there ever. And yet he was totally fine living with a pitbull and shepherd for a week, camping with another 2 pitbulls and a lhasoapso and then living again with a bulldog, lab and pitbull/rottie mix. Never had any issues (aside from the bull dog hating Blaze) because we met off property.

There is plenty of other ways to let your dog socialize. Im not against dog parks in the least, and do enjoy going when I do. Sounds like mine is like yours, very large and can easily get lost in it. But its not the only way for a dog to socialize and play. Dog classes (obeidence, agility, fly ball ect ect), dog camps (humans can go to as well. around here we have them, and its bring your dog) meet ups with friends. meet ups with neighboors. join a dog club. ect


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Bowie Valentine said:


> Any suggestions? How do you make a dog more passive in situations where dogs are resource guarding so that the resource guarder doesn't feel threatened enough to lunge and start a fight?
> 
> P.S. I am going to throw this out there... After these incidents happen, the quarrel has ended, I tell my dog calmly but firmly "No! You do not do that! No! That is Bad!" after I have my dog by the collar and am looking her in the face. Then I have her follow the command "sit", and if she refuses I give her a more firm "sit" command and walk "into her" so that she has to back into a sit. Then I give her some more talking of the same "You do not do that. That is very bad." Then I take her for a "time-out walk" on leash away from the other dogs. Thank you again for your thoughtful responses.


 
All the dog Hears is "BLA BLAH BLAH BAD" remember that dogs do NOT understand our language and it it's been more than three seconds they don't understand why they are being scolded. Your dog may well associate the scolding with the other dog's presence or even the 'timeout' walk which could lead to other problems. Therefore all you're effectivly doing is fussing for no purpose. Be matter of fact, do not bother scolding and get the dog AWAY from the bad situation. It's your responsibilty to protect your dog and tht means calling her away from a dog you see with tense body language or that you know to be a resource gaurder, do not allow the interaction in the first place. If in doubt about reading dog body language get a few books or DVD's on the subject, dogwise.com is full of them. Scolding after the fact is not effective and could in fact cause your dog to become reactive.

I also would steer clear of dog parks, your dog has shown she has no problem giving a correction to a rude dog (that's what this is BTW, not dominance) instead of walking away, therefore, she should be in controlled groups ONLY where you know the other dogs AND OWNERS and how they get along.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Bowie Valentine said:


> I read the first line of your response and realized you took it too literal when I said "they're too smart for their own good." Excuse my playfulness and exaggeration. I wouldn't have working dogs any other way. "Too smart for their own good" was merely a joke. People still do that in forums, right? Now I'll go on to read the rest of what you've said...


When a person is trying to help you at YOUR behest it isn't a good idea to make jokes. IT only shows ignorence (as in a lack of intelligence, not rudeness) in this situation and not a smart idea. Sarcasm doesn't come off well in text.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

Bowie, I think the problem here is this, You need to take baby steps. Introduce her to other dogs you know. She seems almost child like in her response to me. Two children are playing and one stakes a claim on a toy. The other child decides the toy is of high value also and wants it also. The second child doesn't take the 'No' kindly and war is waged. 
As someone else said when training to build confidence you take baby steps. This may mean starting socializing with dogs you know and people you trust. She needs to learn that YOU aren't going to accept her getting in a fight/snapping frenzy. This doesn't require a dominance roll but it does require that she trusts you (as someone else mentioned). 
I, also, wouldn't take her back to a dog park for awhile at least. Give her and yourself more time to form a bond, one in which she learns to trust you even better. Think of it like this- she knows you 'have her back', that she doesn't need to be so reactive. That's what it all seems to be anyway- reactivity. 
Training takes work. And also there are many forums on the net and anyone can post on them. Do you really think it's the place to solicite advice from others in regards to training? Its good to check out and good to get many responses but your best bet is to find a local behavioralist whom has good references from clients, past and present. I'd never bring my dog to a 'trainer' without checking them out first anyway. Many differ and I wouldn't put myself or my dog into a situation I'd later regret.
The point is that you are getting quite angry and upset because of opinions you weren't looking to hear and also upset because no one gave you good solid training advice. This is a forum. No one is paid to diagnose problems and give training advice here. It's all done because others truly want to help. I don't think one should bite that hand that feeds them, per say.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> =Jetta;860057]If all your replies are just "don't take it there" thus basically give up you'll never fix this then Zi'd find somewhere else to seek advice. There is a behaviour here that you need to train your dog in a way to correct it, I don't have the answere for you but I've seen enough dogs turned around to know that there's lots of options for different problems and you certainly shouldn't just give up and never take her again that's nonsense.


This dog is reactive. *This dog has no business in a dog park right NOW*, and may well never be trustworthy in a dp setting. Every time the dog displays this unwanted behavior, that behavior is being reinforced, and will be harder to stop/change.


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