# When Did You Start Training



## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

My puppy came home on Sunday. Other than not going potty in the house we haven't done any kind of training. 

He's 8 weeks old. When do you typically start working on training the basics after a puppy comes home.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I started solidifying "sit" and "down" a few days after I brought Titan home. His breeder had worked on those commands with him, so it wasn't a matter of him learning something new, it was just a reinforcement of the commands. I think I started with "up" (sitting up from laying down) and "come" the following weekend (so at 10 weeks) and then added "stay". "Off" and "leave it" were added soon after. And then "touch" to work on him nose tapping things instead of pawing them. 

So pretty much, I think I added a new command every four to seven days or so, as well as worked on reinforcing the old ones. He still struggles with "stay" the most and gets the most frustrated with it. 

I also worked from the *very* beginning on name recognition. If I said Titan's name and he looked my way, he got a treat. From day one.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I would start right away as long as tha puppy doesn't seem overwhelmed with their new environment.

Puppies at our shelter start training before they are old enough to go home via a program with local inmates.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Training starts that first day they are in my house. Everything with a puppy is a teachable moment. If you really think about it, every interaction you have with your dog (even well into adulthood) is training and a teachable moment.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

would look at it as every interaction your are training.. you are teaching ( working towards learning) something useful every time you interact with them. Something they will use every day for the rest of their lives, yes as soon as they home.... at 8 weeks.. all informal, (hit or miss) type results but your trying to show them as you going along and not worry about the results so much as the opportunity to keep showing them... Congratulations Have fun and lots of puppy hugs and kisses...


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I think when I get a puppy I would take every opportunity to teach engagement and manners... but I may not necessarily work on any specific cues right away. Things like sit/down/etc I think don't matter in terms of when you teach it, but teaching the dog to engage with you, to take direction, etc. are all very important foundational skills that I think all dogs would benefit from learning right away.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

As soon as we came home LOL ... well ... technically we started the next day, since he and I were tired from the drive (2 hours one way). I started leash training the next day. I will admit that most of the stuff he knows he just learned from me spending time with him.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> Training starts that first day they are in my house. Everything with a puppy is a teachable moment. If you really think about it, every interaction you have with your dog (even well into adulthood) is training and a teachable moment.


Agree with this, but specific things I start right away are "It's Yer Choice" and 101 things to do with a box type shaping exercises. Also two-ball to lay a foundation for drop it.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Ya i should have clarified. I was talking about formal training and cues. Sit, Stay, Down. 

As far as manners goes, we started as soon as we got in the car. Not biting, he isn't allowed of the crate until I leash him and say come on, he is praised for sitting for attention, not demand barking, we're walking on a leash, though it's not very formal. At this point it's just move with me and stop with me. I'm not requiring a tight heel or stay on one side. Although when he started zigzag I stopped until he settled and we began again. 

I guess I meant, when should I introduce him to the clicker and make him sit for his dinner lol.



sassafras said:


> Agree with this, but specific things I start right away are "It's Yer Choice" and 101 things to do with a box type shaping exercises. Also two-ball to lay a foundation for drop it.


I need to look into those. Thanks for reminding me. 
Where can I find those?


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## Marvel (Sep 26, 2015)

Right away! Quill knew his name when I picked him up thanks to the breeder, but we started sit and leave it the first day he was with me. I can't say how often I added new tricks...just kind of once he had a fairly solid grasp on old tricks, we moved on to a new one. Never working too long, but doing several sessions and using every opportunity to train. 

Remember that they can pick things up without you "teaching" them actively -- so yes, every interaction IS training. Quill "accidentally" learned "wait". When we walked, I made him stop so I could carry him across the street when he was little. I just said wait out of habit, and after a few times of doing it (no treats, praise, etc) he would stop, sit, and wait for me to pick him up. Now he will stop running/playing/etc when off leash to wait for me to catch up if I ask him to! 

Likewise, my friend's Aussie was given a treat as a puppy for finally going through water and from then on would run through EVERY puddle in hopes he got a treat!


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

I didn't really start your typical training (sit, down, stay, etc...) until I got him in puppy class, BUT I did do potty training, no jumping, leash walking, no biting, etc... I guess more behaviour modification vs actual training until I got some tips on how to properly train my dog. (not gonna lie, I felt much more confident in training my dog AFTER I went to puppy K with him)


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

sclevenger said:


> I need to look into those. Thanks for reminding me.
> Where can I find those?


It's Yer Choice:






101 things:

http://www.clickertraining.com/node/167

Two-Ball I don't have a reference for but it's basically just having two of the same toy, toss one and when the puppy comes back make a big deal about the second and then throw IT without initially asking the puppy to do anything. They learn that dropping the first toy means they get to chase the second. Later you can gradually work in a cue. Does that make sense?


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

sassafras said:


> It's Yer Choice:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes that makes sense. I can't really get him to chase anything at this point unless it's food. Lol. 

I don't see the link for its your choice.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

> Ya i should have clarified. I was talking about formal training and cues. Sit, Stay, Down.


Because I am a performance home and I teach dog obedience classes myself.....those things start the day they come home.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Didn't the video embed for you?

here's the direct link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

We start right away. It's fun though, luring some positions, working on correct play, rewarding offered focus, shaping stuff, etc. No drilling or expecting them to know the cues yet or anything, but we do start learning all of the stuff. I had Hazel enrolled in a foundations class at Fenzi Academy at 9.5 weeks and she did fine.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Day one. Like others have said, it is mostly Its Yer Choice/NILF and rewarding for any correct behaviors right off the bat. But I do start working on cues from the get go too. With a young puppy I wouldn't drill the obedience and I would prioritize all the other stuff. But an 8 week puppy can certainly start learning 'Sit' and other behaviors.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

This is going to sound pretentious but I almost don't understand it when people get a new dog or puppy and just 'let it be' in the house the moment they bring the animal home. Not saying you're doing that, and not saying it's wrong. Honestly I exhaust myself reinforcing boundaries the moment an animal comes home.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I plan on starting right away. We have a long drive so maybe not the moment we walk through the door but like MrsBoats I'm going to be raising a performance dog and I teach obedience classes so I intend to begin ASAP. Also my breed is known to need firm boundaries and rules so I want to lay the foundation for a well mannered dog right away.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't jump right in to anything intense, but I start teaching eye contact right away (hold a treat up near, but away from, my face, and reward the dog the _instant_ its eyes flick from the treat to me, working up to longer and longer stares). I move on to sit and down after that. That's all easy stuff that a pup will pick up fast.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Canyx said:


> This is going to sound pretentious but I almost don't understand it when people get a new dog or puppy and just 'let it be' in the house the moment they bring the animal home. Not saying you're doing that, and not saying it's wrong. Honestly I exhaust myself reinforcing boundaries the moment an animal comes home.


Ya I understand that. And I'm defentily teaching him boundaries and all the, someone called it behavior modification. 

I just wasn't sure when to introduce the clicker and such for training sit, down, stay and all that stuff.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Around 6 months old, apart from house training, crate training and sit. Other than that, I believe puppies should play. Puppies will learn much more quickly and retain what they have learned when they reach adolescence, especially if training is made part of a game. Until 6 months old their minds are not really developmentally ready to learn down/stay or how to heel. By the time a dog hits 6 months old they bodies have gone through something called neural pruning where much of what was learned as a puppy disappears in a puff of smoke. How many times have people complained that their adolescent dog has suddenly regressed in his/her training and have forgotten everything they have been taught?

When you examine all obedience behaviors except the sit, they are analogs of the predatory motor patterns found in wild wolves, and wolf cubs don’t start hunting until they are adolescents. Forcing puppies to pay attention and learn when Nature is telling them to jump around, bite, play and get distracted, is going against millions of years of natural development. 

Now, I am sure no one here will agree with me, but that is fine. My belief is to teach puppies obedience through high energy games like tug that stimulate the puppy's urge to bite and focus that on a toy if he obeys commands he gets to win the toy. The more actively the dog’s whole organism is involved—his emotions, his kinetic energy, his instincts, and his brain—the better and faster he’ll learn. I have used these techniques on my adult dog who though user error needed some tweaking, and it worked almost instantly.

Obviously, you do need to manage the environment around the puppy and avoid overload, just as we puppy proof our house, we also need to puppy proof ourselves, that means no attention indoors, no excited greetings, let the puppy can carry around a toy indoors or have chew toys on his mat, spend lots of time outside where he can explore and bite on things, walks in safe areas and plenty of gentle massage to simulate play biting. This is a gentle natural way to allow emotional development, rather than teaching manners, lessons, and having lots of rules and regulations.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

My puppy never went through that forgetful "teenage" stage people talk about. I reinforced his commands all along (this version of NILIF) and never had any issues. He learned fine.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Neither of my puppies forget everything they knew as teenagers. One had some slight regression, but it was more about his independence developing than forgetting anything. The other was a bit ditzy for a week right before her first heat, but that was it. Puppies are sponges. How can you not teach them stuff as soon as possible? They love to learn, and I want them to learn how to learn while they're young and impressionable.

Here's a little video we took for the FDSA class when Hazel was 9.5 weeks old, working on offered focus and perch. I'd only had her for a week and we did short fun training sessions almost daily. Definitely not too much for a puppy to handle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUSHpq4ghRU

ETA: FWIW, I don't have a lot of rules for puppies right away. I very heavily manage the environment and set them up to make correct choices, but I don't expect them to follow rules or have impulse control yet.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> My puppy never went through that forgetful "teenage" stage people talk about. I reinforced his commands all along (this version of NILIF) and never had any issues. He learned fine.


From your link:



> NILIF is a simple and effective way to *control* our dog’s behavior, by controlling his most desired resources.


I don't need to control my dog's behavior he is quite able to do that himself.

And the examples from the link:

If our dog wants to go out to the backyard, ask him for a Sit first, before opening the door. 

When my dog wants to go outside, he indicates his desire and I open the door.

If our dog is looking for affection, ask him to Go Bed first, before scratching him on his favorite spots.

I freely give my dog a neck massage and happily rub his belly if he wants it.

If it is our dog’s meal time, then ask him for a Down-Stay before starting to prepare his food. 

Why? What does it matter if he waits for his food standing or sitting? My dog will sit patiently for his food without me requesting him to do so.



> With NILIF, we teach our dog that the best way to get what he wants, is to first do what we want.


Why? Back to my original question on another thread, is this some kind of neo-dominance training, masquerading as +R?


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

Mirzam said:


> From your link:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 no it is classical conditioning with rewards. I ask for something and when the dog does it they get rewarded-- in the most basic you ignore or not reward wrong responses--most dogs pick up that if I do "X" when asked a known word I get "Y" (the reward). There is no dominance about it simply using something the dog wants.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Mirzam said:


> From your link:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I ask you - what if your dog indicated his desire to go outside by leaping around, jumping on the door & scratching it to shreds? Would you still open the door for him? 

What if he was leaping around like a lunatic while you prepared the meal, jumping up & knocking the bowl out of your hand or biting your pant legs? Would you still go about making his food? 

What if your dog ran up to you, jumped up in your face & mouthed you painfully hard when he wanted attention & petting? Would you comply?

I'm thinking - hoping, actually - that the answer is "No" and that you *train* the dog through cause & effect the behaviors that he can exhibit to earn his desired rewards. Unless you just somehow have a magically compliant dog that has never made waves or offered behaviors that you didn't want repeated? And if so - what's that like? lol


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

SirviRavenWind said:


> no it is classical conditioning with rewards. I ask for something and when the dog does it they get rewarded-- in the most basic you ignore or not reward wrong responses--most dogs pick up that if I do "X" when asked a known word I get "Y" (the reward). There is no dominance about it simply using something the dog wants.


When they perform the desired actions without a reward, do you then, stop NILIF? How does this differ from operant conditioning, if this is classical conditioning, NILIF is operating on an emotional rather than a behavioral level?


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> And I ask you - what if your dog indicated his desire to go outside by leaping around, jumping on the door & scratching it to shreds? Would you still open the door for him?
> 
> What if he was leaping around like a lunatic while you prepared the meal, jumping up & knocking the bowl out of your hand or biting your pant legs? Would you still go about making his food?
> 
> ...


My dog does none of those things, but he wasn't trained not to do them either. He developed impulse control naturally as he grew and matured. Dogs are better than apes at self-restraint, and in fact, when properly raised are more reliable than humans when it comes to self-control. Obviously, this is only applicable to dogs raised from puppyhood, and not to adopted dogs with uncertain histories. Which is why I would use some of the techniques I have mentioned. As I said, they resolved, non-agressive DR in my boy, it is like night and day.

If a dog is behaving in the manner in which you describe they are in overload, and that needs to be addressed not the resultant behavior.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

Mirzam said:


> When they perform the desired actions without a reward, do you then, stop NILIF? How does this differ from operant conditioning, if this is classical conditioning, NILIF is operating on an emotional rather than a behavioral level?


It could be both really, since no one knows which dogs use the most or not I would think it is really both, I have seen and even had dogs that I have trained that tone of voice and mannerisms had an effect on the dog:
(1) It depends on how the person continues to train as many continue to treat every time others reduce the reward-- an exception to this would be using the food they eat to get them to sit or down before eating.
In I have done "X" after stopping so many times that when I do "Y" (a sit) I get reward-- so when I stop I am going to sit since I get a reward. This is how dogs learn to anticipate before asked to do something. 

If you are reducing it falls closer to classical-- in that you get a response before you ask this is what most people are aiming for and what NILIF helps with.
Classical is really just repletion and the dog learning to anticipate- if I am asked to do "X" each time I do"----" I get "Y", to get "Y" I will offer "X" each time even if not asked (sometime even when I don't get "Y" all the time) it is ingrained.

It can be as a whole operant in that you are giving a choice do X get Y falls under this--in most cases this is not what they want as if you don't always have "X" some dogs do not do "Y"
Operant is reward and punishment depending on what the dog does. do "X" get "Y"


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> I'm thinking - hoping, actually - that the answer is "No" and that you *train* the dog through *cause & effect the behaviors* that he can exhibit to earn his desired rewards. Unless you just somehow have a magically compliant dog that has never made waves or offered behaviors that you didn't want repeated? And if so - what's that like? lol


I should also add, that I don't believe the Theory of Mind when it comes to the canine cognition is correct, so no I wouldn't train my dog through cause & effect. I train through attraction and resistance.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Mirzam said:


> My dog does none of those things, but he wasn't trained not to do them either. He developed impulse control naturally as he grew and matured. Dogs are better than apes at self-restraint, and in fact, when properly raised are more reliable than humans when it comes to self-control. Obviously, this is only applicable to dogs raised from puppyhood, and not to adopted dogs with uncertain histories. Which is why I would use some of the techniques I have mentioned. As I said, they resolved, non-agressive DR in my boy, it is like night and day.
> 
> If a dog is behaving in the manner in which you describe they are in overload, and that needs to be addressed not the resultant behavior.


In other words - you have no answer. I thought so. And, quite frankly, dogs are NOT naturals at controlling their impulses in ways that **humans** consider correct & polite. That takes human *training* and controlling/manipulating the consequences of their *natural* behaviors to be achieved. 

I take it you have exactly one dog? And this is the one & only dog you have ever trained? I am thrilled for you that you have developed a wonderful working relationship with your dog, but what works for one dog doesn't work in exactly the same way with any other. Some are more naturally compliant & laid back. Others are much more likely to assert their independent spirit & the hallmark of a good (and experienced) trainer is knowing how to make adjustments to achieve results based on each individual dog's drives, abilities, desires & strengths - while making allowances for the more challenging aspects of their temperament. You seem to want to paint every dog & training scenario with the same brush.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

I train from day one, with that said it is not the structured train class kind of thing. I do believe that dogs learn very much like children do and everything it a teaching moment. With all the dogs I have had the best was my lab that I got at 10 weeks, and was umbilical with NLIF training. This is a dog that locked me out of the house because I taught him how to turn the light out. I have had several that did not seem to learn well. Still first day home training began I have never had a nightmare dog but some were close. I now do NILIF only since the umbilical can cause SA (only issue I had with my lab) and I have to many dogs to have them all on leashes (the cats go after them).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Baby puppies are like learning sponges, they can certainly learn a wide variety of behaviors and the foundations for other behaviors. There's no need at all to wait until 6 months old to start training anything that is physically safe for them.

Yes dogs are very well known for their good judgment and self control lol.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> In other words - you have no answer. I thought so. And, quite frankly, dogs are NOT naturals at controlling their impulses in ways that **humans** consider correct & polite. That takes human *training* and controlling/manipulating the consequences of their *natural* behaviors to be achieved.
> 
> I take it you have exactly one dog? And this is the one & only dog you have ever trained? I am thrilled for you that you have developed a wonderful working relationship with your dog, but what works for one dog doesn't work in exactly the same way with any other. Some are more naturally compliant & laid back. Others are much more likely to assert their independent spirit & the hallmark of a good (and experienced) trainer is knowing how to make adjustments to achieve results based on each individual dog's drives, abilities, desires & strengths - while making allowances for the more challenging aspects of their temperament. You seem to want to paint every dog & training scenario with the same brush.


1. Well, we will just have to disagree. Take herding dogs who will herd sheep through prey drive as opposed to killing sheep through prey instinct. If reared *naturally* they a quite able to live freely among us. 

2. I again disagree, if a dog is trained according to natural principles, then it doesn't matter what the temperament, drive level, spirit, etc is they will know how to live in our world, provided they are not neurologically damaged or emotionally damaged to a degree they cannot be rehabilitated. The problem is, current, mainstream training methods are just not good enough and are based on an incorrect theory.

I currently have one dog, because that is best for my family, I have grown up with dogs all of whom were graduates of the _Old Macdonald Institute of Canine Good Behavior_! None of them exhibited the kind of behaviors seen so often in dogs today. My dog is a guardian breed with low prey drive and nervous process with a high threshold, he is independent and I have worked on increasing his prey drive so that he is more focused on me as his handler when out of the house. He is no biddable Border Collie.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Mirzam said:


> The problem is, current, mainstream training methods are just not good enough and are based on an incorrect theory.


Source? I asked for one in another thread when you said something like this, and you never did get back to me.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Mirzam said:


> Dogs are better than apes at self-restraint, and in fact, when properly raised are more reliable than humans when it comes to self-control.


Do you have a source for that? There have been numerous inhibitory control tests done on dogs and primates but I am not aware of one that compared canine and primates. Would love to see it.



Mirzam said:


> I should also add, that I don't believe the Theory of Mind when it comes to the canine cognition is correct, so no I wouldn't train my dog through cause & effect. I train through attraction and resistance.


Science shows that most animals learn through classical and operant conditioning, even humans. In fact, the entire field of animal behavior is built upon this. I hope you enlighten us as to what "attraction and resistance" training is. Also, regardless of what you do or don't believe, cause and effect works... You reward what you want and ignore what you don't want (or punish what you don't want, for some people). Perhaps "cause and effect" sounds too cold but it is what it is. 

How you raise your dog is your business but the claims you are making about behavior and training are unfounded and misleading for people who may be looking for sound advice on how to start dogs off on the right foot with regards to training.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Mirzam said:


> 1. Well, we will just have to disagree. Take herding dogs who will herd sheep through prey drive as opposed to killing sheep through prey instinct. If reared *naturally* they a quite able to live freely among us.
> 
> 2. I again disagree, if a dog is trained according to natural principles, then it doesn't matter what the temperament, drive level, spirit, etc is they will know how to live in our world, provided they are not neurologically damaged or emotionally damaged to a degree they cannot be rehabilitated. The problem is, current, mainstream training methods are just not good enough and are based on an incorrect theory.
> 
> I currently have one dog, because that is best for my family, I have grown up with dogs all of whom were graduates of the _Old Macdonald Institute of Canine Good Behavior_! None of them exhibited the kind of behaviors seen so often in dogs today. My dog is a guardian breed with low prey drive and nervous process with a high threshold, he is independent and I have worked on increasing his prey drive so that he is more focused on me as his handler when out of the house. He is no biddable Border Collie.


OK - I'm done. Agree to disagree. 

You make sweeping generalizations but can offer no practical or specific details of your magical training methodology. I'm absolutely certain that you are doing exactly what a whole lot of other people are doing (basing obedience foundations on the dog's natural drives and training handler focus based on the scientific principals of operant conditioning) but for some reason you want to believe you have created some **new** way of training dogs that taps into their feelings, rather than their mind - because you know, dog's don't *think*! Carry on, Mirzam.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Mirzam said:


> Around 6 months old, apart from house training, crate training and sit. Other than that, I believe puppies should play. Puppies will learn much more quickly and retain what they have learned when they reach adolescence, especially if training is made part of a game. Until 6 months old their minds are not really developmentally ready to learn down/stay or how to heel. By the time a dog hits 6 months old they bodies have gone through something called neural pruning where much of what was learned as a puppy disappears in a puff of smoke. How many times have people complained that their adolescent dog has suddenly regressed in his/her training and have forgotten everything they have been taught?
> 
> When you examine all obedience behaviors except the sit, they are analogs of the predatory motor patterns found in wild wolves, and wolf cubs don’t start hunting until they are adolescents. Forcing puppies to pay attention and learn when Nature is telling them to jump around, bite, play and get distracted, is going against millions of years of natural development.
> 
> ...


I think at the core we are doing the same things with our dogs. But your explanation is very emotion driven. Yes, play is important. "Manners, lessons, and having lots of rules and regulations" do NOT mean you are doing training sessions and drilling commands every waking second. It is a combination of managing the environment so that it is safe and so that your dog is more likely to succeed than fail (which I think you would agree with), and rewarding the dog when he is doing something you like. 'Reward' doesn't mean a training session necessarily. It can be play... puppy is tugging on an appropriate item and you are playing with him. That is not regimented training, but you are rewarding his behavior by continuing to interact with him. Puppy is lying on his bed so you go over and give him a massage or a couple of treats. That is not strictly teaching a "Go to Bed" command but is setting the foundations for teaching a dog a proper place to be. A gate is put up in the kitchen. This is not strict training either but can be effective in keeping a learning puppy out of the trash and it is instilling boundaries. ALL of this goes towards manners, rules, and regulations. But these are all gentle and natural ways to allow emotional development. This method of feedback is the same emotional, kinetic, instinctual process you are describing. It is also cause and effect.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

With Obi I had the flu so it was about a week before I started training him, and he was 12 weeks when I got him. I didn't know what I was doing, so I started with sit, just because. Then we worked on "drop it" and then various tricks mixed with basic obedience stuff.

If I got a puppy now, I'd probably start training the same day or the day after I brought it home, and work on developing toy play and personal play as rewards first of all, then work on self control (It's yer choice and Crate Games), and asking permission to go and do stuff. Then mix in trick training and obedience training.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I've only had older puppies and adults as fosters and adopted dogs, but I started training from day one. No reason not to. Doesn't mean anything formal, but right away I would start to reward things like not rushing the door, not jumping on people etc. just general good manners. I usually feed the first few days worth of meals by hand to start teaching the dogs not to try to take my fingers with their kibble and to build a bond with the dog. Ask for sit, reward. Ask the dog to come (into another room or from the yard), reward. Most of the fosters had a great deal of pent up energy and while I let them run it off in the yard and gave them plenty of walks, indoors they started learning to settle and to not eat my door frame or my couch right from the start. 

Just start the building blocks of the lifestyle you want to have the dog lead. If you want to be permissive in some areas and more strict in others, just make that the set-up from the start. Such as, no access to part of the house but full access to furniture on the first floor, as an example. Much easier to give greater permission or access as the dog grows than to reduce access to something the dog has become used to.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't have time to write a long essay on what is *wrong* with classical and operant* conditioning and the ToM right now. I will try and get to it, at some point if I can. 

But really, if you are happy with the results from your training method, you can just right me off as a kook. I take no offense. I was just answering the OP's question.

* and CM dominance/pack training also


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well if you don't have time to write a long essay, perhaps you could at least provide some sources we could all read?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have had most of my puppies from around 8 weeks and do much like Shell does. They are taught manners, no jumping on people, sitting when asked. Bonnie is four months old now (approx. 16 weeks) and she knows to sit outside the door and staying till I tell her to come in. She learned that really quickly as that is what Kris does and she copied her. She knows to sit if someone wants to pat her. She is of course, not 100% as she is still a puppy. I do not do any what I would call formal training (obedience type training) at any particular age but do not expect too much from them till they are around 6 months old. I am working on leash training right now, just to walk along on a loose leash and not wrapping herself around me, but not asking her to heel yet. She knows to jump into my Van and goes right into her crate where she always gets a treat and to come out and sit till I get her leash on.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Mirzam said:


> Around 6 months old, apart from house training, crate training and sit. Other than that, I believe puppies should play. Puppies will learn much more quickly and retain what they have learned when they reach adolescence, especially if training is made part of a game. Until 6 months old their minds are not really developmentally ready to learn down/stay or how to heel. By the time a dog hits 6 months old they bodies have gone through something called neural pruning where much of what was learned as a puppy disappears in a puff of smoke. How many times have people complained that their adolescent dog has suddenly regressed in his/her training and have forgotten everything they have been taught?
> 
> When you examine all obedience behaviors except the sit, they are analogs of the predatory motor patterns found in wild wolves, and wolf cubs don’t start hunting until they are adolescents. Forcing puppies to pay attention and learn when Nature is telling them to jump around, bite, play and get distracted, is going against millions of years of natural development.
> 
> ...


Of course puppies can learn to stay and heel etc. I teach this to every puppy I work with. I taught my own puppy all the basic obedience stuff and a bunch of tricks before he was 6 months. At puppy class he ignored all the other puppies and sat at my feet staring up at me. He never forgot all his skills at 6 months either.

All training should be fun and games based, but that applies to dogs of all ages, not just puppies.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Mirzam said:


> I don't have time to write a long essay on what is *wrong* with classical and operant* conditioning and the ToM right now. I will try and get to it, at some point if I can.
> 
> But really, if you are happy with the results from your training method, you can just right me off as a kook. I take no offense. I was just answering the OP's question.
> 
> * and CM dominance/pack training also


I don't want a long essay from you. I want some sources from respected experts in the field.


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## AbdulKhan (Dec 8, 2015)

I always start as soon as I get them. Lots of brief lessons because puppies have short attention span.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Mirzam said:


> I don't have time to write a long essay on what is *wrong* with classical and operant* conditioning and the ToM right now.


Perhaps you could say anything about it at all?

You keep saying that it's bad and this other thing is better, but never say why it's bad, or even -what- this other thing is that's better. Other than a vague label that really tells us nothing.

You understand why that makes folks skeptical and confused.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I don't really remember with Mia? I know the first day home after a 7 hour drive we didn't do much. 

Hank learned sit, down, nose touch and hand touch in the first day but he's kind of a rock star and was 8-10 months old.

I would basically just start shaping what you want from your dog from the get go as far as manners go.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> You keep saying that it's bad and this other thing is better, but never say why it's bad, or even -what- this other thing is that's better. Other than a vague label that really tells us nothing.





Canyx said:


> I hope you enlighten us as to what "attraction and resistance" training is.


 I believe the answer lies within the poster's signature. And then some.

There's a valid reason why fringe-players have never gained widespread recognition from their peers, or built a following that goes beyond cultish.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Mirzam said:


> My dog does none of those things, but he wasn't trained not to do them either. He developed impulse control naturally as he grew and matured. Dogs are better than apes at self-restraint, and in fact, when properly raised are more reliable than humans when it comes to self-control. Obviously, this is only applicable to dogs raised from puppyhood, and not to adopted dogs with uncertain histories. Which is why I would use some of the techniques I have mentioned. As I said, they resolved, non-agressive DR in my boy, it is like night and day.
> 
> If a dog is behaving in the manner in which you describe they are in overload, and that needs to be addressed not the resultant behavior.


I think... a lot of that is because you have a mastiff. They're not generally as um... rowdy? as some other types. My cattle dog x terrier has different 'rough spots' than the papillons. And vice versa. What needs heavy work (or not) really depends on the dog. My papillons never bit when they were overstimulated or tried to drag the vacuum away while I was vacuuming. Hank never barked all class in his crate. He also potty trained much easier.

Just because something 'comes naturally' with one single dog doesn't mean it is that way for every dog.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies guys. 

I introduced the clicker to him yesterday, just loading, click and treat. Also got my daughter to help, which was nice to see them working together instead of running around like wild things. He didn't seem to catch on, even after about 15 or so repetitions, he still wasn't connecting the click and treat. 

Should I try again with the loading or just move on to teaching him sit with the clicker and hope he picks up on it when it's paired with a doing something? 

I've been making him sit before he comes out of the kennel and before being leashed. Nothing formal, just lighting pushing his but down and saying sit. Sometimes he sits on his own so, cool. But I see that as manners, not so much learning sit.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I would move on and just use the clicker while you train. I'm not a fan of loading it first. I don't think it's necessary or helpful long term.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

sclevenger said:


> Thanks for all the replies guys.
> 
> I introduced the clicker to him yesterday, just loading, click and treat. Also got my daughter to help, which was nice to see them working together instead of running around like wild things. He didn't seem to catch on, even after about 15 or so repetitions, he still wasn't connecting the click and treat.
> 
> ...


At this point I would not push his butt down OR say "sit". I would simply be capturing (or perhaps luring) the behavior (C/T) until it was dependable, then start adding the verbal cue. (You can't 'name' a behavior the dog doesn't have & you don't want to risk making the 'butt push/touch' part of his cue to perform a sit)

I also don't formally load the clicker - I just C/T what I want to see repeated. If you really want to solidify 'sit' then mostly C/T that particular action.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> At this point I would not push his butt down OR say "sit". I would simply be capturing (or perhaps luring) the behavior (C/T) until it was dependable, then start adding the verbal cue. (You can't 'name' a behavior the dog doesn't have & you don't want to risk making the 'butt push/touch' part of his cue to perform a sit)
> 
> I also don't formally load the clicker - I just C/T what I want to see repeated. If you really want to solidify 'sit' then mostly C/T that particular action.


Yeah, this. If you haven't taught him sit for real, don't say the word and don't put him in the position. Just wait him out and see if he offers a sit on his own. Most will


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Okay. Thanks. I've never used a clicker before and I feel like I'm going to make a mess of this. To be honest, I don't feel like I have any idea what I'm doing. Like I understand the theory behind the clicker, but beyond that I'm just lost. 

But I think you guys said I don't have to use the clicker for everything right? I mean when he goes potty outside or drops something I asked him to drop I just praise verbally and with affection, should I be using the click for everything?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Clicker training is just click when the dog does what you like and follow up with a treat/reward. That's all. In place of a click you can use another word to mark when the dog does the correct thing.

I'd suggest looking up Zak George to help you see some visuals for the basics. I know he has videos for beginners in clicker training specifically.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

So, the clicker is not the important part of the training. Don't think of it as "clicker training". Think of it as marker training. The clicker just marks the behavior you like. But you can also mark the behavior with a word like "yes". The marker means "I like what you just did and a treat is coming". 

Praise is different. Praise comes after the behavior usually, and does not necessarily mean a treat is coming. I praise my dogs all the time and they enjoy it, but the marker is a super clear indication of "yes you did the right thing now and will be rewarded". It's more specific than praise and is linked to a primary reinforcer like food while praise typically isn't.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

And if I don't intend to follow up with a treat, I usually just praise or give physical affection or whatever. Like if my dog is cooperative about getting feet wiped off after being outside, I'll probably tell them how good they are, but I'm not going to say "yes" or use a clicker because I don't have treats on me and don't intend to go get treats (because they are past the stage where they are getting treats every time I wipe their feet off). At some point you move to variable reinforcement where you aren't marking or clicking every single time. But with a baby puppy I keep treats on me or nearby a lot, and I mark a lot of good behaviors and reward them.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Ya I understand the basic click and treat part of it. 

I guess I'm just looking into it to much. I've set myself up so high not to fail this puppy that I think I'm just freezing up and then everything goes out the window. 

The other night he latched onto my leg and it hurt like wow cause he got the soft part behind my knee, I turned to remove him and boom, my finger goes in his eye by accident he runs away crying. And was kinda skittish of my hands. I think I spent the next hour upset and full of anxiety that I scarred him for life.... which was very over dramatic on my part and he is fine today, and then I was like omg, we havent started training, he isnt being socalized, and im like, duh, he has only been home for 2 days, chill lol but im just freaking out about everything.

Vent/ramble over and back on topic. Thank you for the insight on training, I have been looking at it as clicker training and giving it an entire new method and meaning, when really it's how I've always trained dogs, only instead of saying good boy, I will be clicking. 

Im not gonna start tonight because he needs a bath and going to introduce him to grooming. So as not to overwhelm is little brain, I'll try tomorrow. I get home early tomorrow to take him to his first vet visit. So we will try and learn sit and see how it goes.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

sclevenger said:


> Okay. Thanks. I've never used a clicker before and I feel like I'm going to make a mess of this. To be honest, I don't feel like I have any idea what I'm doing. Like I understand the theory behind the clicker, but beyond that I'm just lost.
> 
> But I think you guys said I don't have to use the clicker for everything right? I mean when he goes potty outside or drops something I asked him to drop I just praise verbally and with affection, should I be using the click for everything?


Just remember not to confuse verbal praise such as "good puppy, goooooood puppy" with a marker. And while the clicker is going to yield faster & more long lasting associations in his mind, obviously there are times that you really want to mark something when your hands are full or you just don't have the clicker at the ready. In those cases just substitute the verbal marker of your choice ("YES" is most commonly used, but you could perhaps opt for a tongue cluck or another short, crisp word of your own choosing - whatever, as long as you're consistent) and then follow up with the treat just as if you had clicked an actual clicker.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> I believe the answer lies within the poster's signature. And then some.
> 
> There's a valid reason why fringe-players have never gained widespread recognition from their peers, or built a following that goes beyond cultish.


Well I went and googled him and here's his site if anyone wants some light reading.

https://naturaldogtraining.com/


ETA: Honestly from my skim, it sounds like the dude is actually _doing_ similar things that many posters here would agree with, but couching it in a lot of words, words, words that makes it seem different.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Just remember you WiLL mess up and that's ok! Don't forget to enjoy the puppy too. 

I love clickers but for some people a marker woe (like yes!) is less fumbly at first.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

So we worked on sit with the clicker last night. At this point, I'm not sure if he is slow or I'm just terrible at this. 

It's also hard to teach a puppy to sit, when he auto sits on his own constantly. Lol. We did a lot of walking in circles and across the room to get him to stand up. 

Tried luring him with a treat into a sit, well, he sits alright and then comes up into the air into a beg. So I had a big problem, I was either clicking on the beg, clicking and not treating because he was in a beg, or just blah, he was whining and getting frustrated cause he couldn't understand how to get the cheese and I was at a loss on how to shown him how to get the cheese. Lol.

Oh and 2 times I completely forgot about the clicker and just praised and treated. 

Good news. I think we kinda had fun. It was different, interesting seeing a different breed besides Aussies learning, and afterwards we snuggled while I got a half of a half of a half of a chapter of my book read. Lol.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hmm, some thoughts. First, the click ends the behavior. So if his butt touches the ground, you click, and then you *always* give a treat. It doesn't matter if he gets up, or begs, or spins in a circle - you've clicked so you treat. He will get it that the behavior you clicked is what earned the treat. In the future, get in there faster with the treat, but it really doesn't matter all that much if the dog moves after you click. Second, sounds like you're just having issues luring it correctly. I've attached a video of how I taught Hazel to sit. Watch the hand placement. You want the treat over the head but not so high that the dog is encouraged to jump up. Third, if he does an autosit, no problem! Click and treat! To get him up, just toss a cookie a couple feet away (you may have to show him where it is, since he's a baby and can't track it well yet; watch my video to see me do this with Hazel). When he comes back to you lure into a sit again before he can do it on his own.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Hmm, some thoughts. First, the click ends the behavior. So if his butt touches the ground, you click, and then you *always* give a treat. It doesn't matter if he gets up, or begs, or spins in a circle - you've clicked so you treat. He will get it that the behavior you clicked is what earned the treat. In the future, get in there faster with the treat, but it really doesn't matter all that much if the dog moves after you click. Second, sounds like you're just having issues luring it correctly. I've attached a video of how I taught Hazel to sit. Watch the hand placement. You want the treat over the head but not so high that the dog is encouraged to jump up. Third, if he does an autosit, no problem! Click and treat! To get him up, just toss a cookie a couple feet away (you may have to show him where it is, since he's a baby and can't track it well yet; watch my video to see me do this with Hazel). When he comes back to you lure into a sit again before he can do it on his own.


The video didn't attach, or at least I don't see it. So should u just put it between my fingers so he can't get it? If I got much closer to him he would have just taken the treat. He isn't jumping up to get it, he's just leaning back and lifting his paws off the ground, so he's sitting but with his paws up. 

I plan on trying again tonight.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

sclevenger said:


> The video didn't attach, or at least I don't see it. So should u just put it between my fingers so he can't get it? If I got much closer to him he would have just taken the treat. He isn't jumping up to get it, he's just leaning back and lifting his paws off the ground, so he's sitting but with his paws up.
> 
> I plan on trying again tonight.


The video was embedded. Maybe it doesn't work on your browser?

Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xImqRjH2HM4

If he's sitting up and picking his paws up off the ground then you've gone too far over his head. He shouldn't have to reach that far to get it.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Karen Pryor 'popularized' clicker training and her book, "Don't Shoot the Dog" unintentionally led to clicker training with dogs. She is very respected for her history, although she may not be the number one clicker trainer in the world today 

In any case, look at: http://reachingtheanimalmind.com/ and click on the TRY tab, and read through those tips. It may help you understand implementation.

If the dog doesn't understand the clicker as a secondary reinforcer, then you are doing 'capture training.' Personally, I really like capture training b/c I'm a klutz with the clicker. So, when the pup sits, you say Sit and give the pup praise and a very tiny treat. After a few times, you say Sit when you know the pup is about to sit, then you praise and treat after successful completion. You can't do this with complex behaviors, but it works with initial, simple behaviors. When you're ready for more complicated behaviors, clicker training is your friend.

Older studies have shown that you can begin training at 4 weeks! Of course, only breeders can do this, and it takes much more patience, but it gets the learning process started. Fifty years ago, we might wait until the dog was 6 mos. Researchers, Vet, and Trainers learned better [  ] and enlightened owners more than 30 years ago, that training starts immediately.

My personal, unresearched opinion is that you use behavioral methods (clicker, luring, etc.) initially to teach puppies and dogs that words have meaning, and that each word corresponds to a different behavior [Sit, and then Down]. Most people are proficient and satisfied to continual using these methods. But, I believe that current studies with canine cognition and fast mapping will lead to methods of Learning Theory, which build on behavioral methods. Behavioral methods use external rewards to help a pup understand how to 'learn'. Cognitive learning theory methods will use internal rewards, so that a dog enjoys learning new things ... as the reward. That's my two cents. LOL


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks. Capture training sounds like what I've always done before to train dogs. It's worked and I've had no issue. 

I honestly just keep hearing how amazing clicker training is and I keep trying and often I get nothing from confusion on both ends, I drop the clicker, go back to old methods and boom were learning. 

I don't know why I keep pushing myself to try the clicker.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't understand how you previous trained dogs then? You just waited for the dog to randomly sit down then named it? Because that's what capturing is. But from what I gathered that's not how you trained.

Did you watch my video?

I really think you're making the whole thing harder than it is.


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## Dogsignalfire (Nov 17, 2015)

sclevenger said:


> Thanks. Capture training sounds like what I've always done before to train dogs. It's worked and I've had no issue.
> 
> I honestly just keep hearing how amazing clicker training is and I keep trying and often I get nothing from confusion on both ends, I drop the clicker, go back to old methods and boom were learning.
> 
> I don't know why I keep pushing myself to try the clicker.


Clicker is really just supposed to be a clear and efficient way for both the handler and the dog to communicate and link behaviors to cues very precisely (not sure if that's the right wording), but it's not necessary in a dog's life or anything- unless you're really trick-trick training. You can totally train a dog without using a clicker as well, just using a marker like "Good!", or even just directly offering the treat- but it takes more precise timing and takes longer for the dog to understand, because of that... Relative to dogs who learned to understand the meaning of the clicker.

You can also work with a trainer in real life, to get a better gist of using the clicker? The trainer can see more in person of what you're doing differently that might be making it seem hard for you guys, perhaps in body language/nonverbal cues or timing, than we can see on forums anyway.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

I'm sorry I misread and misunderstood Capture training. 

I've not done that. I've just always lured and/or helped them into what I wanted depending on what it was I was asking, said the cue word, treated and praised. 

No, I'm at work and haven't been able to watch your video yet. I plan on it after his vet appointment. I'll watch it and then try and do what your doing.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Dogsignalfire said:


> Clicker is really just supposed to be a clear and efficient way for both the handler and the dog to communicate and link behaviors to cues very precisely (not sure if that's the right wording), but it's not necessary in a dog's life or anything- unless you're really trick-trick training. You can totally train a dog without using a clicker as well, just using a marker like "Good!", or even just directly offering the treat- but it takes more precise timing and takes longer for the dog to understand, because of that... Relative to dogs who learned to understand the meaning of the clicker.
> 
> You can also work with a trainer in real life, to get a better gist of using the clicker? The trainer can see more in person of what you're doing differently that might be making it seem hard for you guys, perhaps in body language/nonverbal cues or timing, than we can see on forums anyway.


Thanks. And yes, I think that's why I've always dropped it. I teach the basics, a couple of fun tricks and that's about it. Never advanced tricks, so I never really need to catch a unique behavior for a trick or something. So it was easier to just mark with praise and a treat and all my dogs for most part learned quickly. Royce(my past Aussie) learned sit in a few minutes and remembered the next day without a clicker. We ended last nights session with Dexter still not knowing sit or any idea why he was getting cheese. Again, I'm not putting this all on him, could have been me and the clicker which I think is what makes it so frustrating, I know it's me and I don't know what I'm doing or not doing. 

We start puppy classes in January, but they don't use clickers. It's just praise, petting, and treat based positive reinforcement.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

sclevenger said:


> I'm sorry I misread and misunderstood Capture training.
> 
> I've not done that. I've just always lured and/or helped them into what I wanted depending on what it was I was asking, said the cue word, treated and praised.
> 
> No, I'm at work and haven't been able to watch your video yet. I plan on it after his vet appointment. I'll watch it and then try and do what your doing.


Yeah, that's basically clicker training. Instead of praising after the treat, now say "yes" as the butt hits the ground. Otherwise exactly the same.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Clicking is replacing saying "yes" or "good." That's it. People use a clicker because it's a consistent sound (you may say "yes" slightly differently each time) and it's quick. If you're having trouble clicking at the right time, just forget it and say "yes" or "good" (or whatever word you like) instead.

I also don't give a name to a behavior until a dog is consistently performing it. Once the dog automatically sits when it sees that I have food, that's when I start saying "sit" as the dog is in the process of sitting.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

just to add that being clumsy with the clicker is totally normal when you're first learning. 

When I was first learning how to do it I was all over the place, forgetting to click, clicking after giving the treat, etc, but with practice it's now second nature to me and I don't even have to think about it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure if you watch the video of me and Hazel with the sound on I was pretty clumsy with clicking too. I hadn't used the clicker with Watson for a while and I was a bit nervous about the video tape. Everybody mis-clicks or messes it up from time to time! It's a mechanical skill and takes practice.

And you really can just say "yes" if you find the clicker too much to deal with at first.


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## Dogsignalfire (Nov 17, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> just to add that being clumsy with the clicker is totally normal when you're first learning.
> 
> When I was first learning how to do it I was all over the place, forgetting to click, clicking after giving the treat, etc, but with practice it's now second nature to me and I don't even have to think about it.


Just adding that I also messed up with the clicker every other time when I first started LOL. I'd give the treat and forget to click, and then click instinctively anyway AFTER the fact, or click too slowly because I forgot in the second whether my right hand (treat) or left hand (click) should go first. Or instinctively say "Good!" and then give the treat and then click after all of that, which is too late. aaahaa

(tangent kind of)


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Yay. Update. Tried again tonight. Like a 3-4 minute session and we made progress, both of us. I didn't allow myself to think about it. I just clicked and still said good boy and still said sit and really helped to not make it all about the clicker and to just train and have fun. 

Towards the end, I didn't have to lure hardly at all and I started wondering if he was getting it and if he was making the connection with the clicker. 

So I held out his treat, told him sit, and in what felt like slow motion I watched him think about it, and then start lowering his but to the ground, and as he started lowering he moved his eyes to the clicker, almost like he was waiting to see if this is what I wanted. 

So theb we did 5 or so more reps of me just saying sit without luring and he did everytime. Sometimes really slowly, but still getting there. 

I'm pretty proud of us. Lol. 

Oh, and stupid me completely forgot about your video, until afterwards. I juat kept thinking about what you said on here and forgot you said hey here is a video to watch lol. 

I did watch it afterwards and when you clicked Dexter come running over and sat down lol and then watched the video with me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Oh yay! Great update!


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Oh yay! Great update!


Yes. I was pretty excited. I'm looking forward to trying again tonight to see what he has retained. 

Working with him has been so different than Royce. Royce was wicked smart, but he kinda bulldozed through everything, it was like, he listened to what I was asking, but he wasn't hearing what I was asking. So he didn't focus well and would constantly through random behaviors instead of focus and listen. He was harder to train in that aspect, but grabbed everything quickly after that. 

Dexter, has focus. He is listening to me all the time. He doesn't try to just throw out stuff, he seems to actually pay attention and try to figure out what I want.

I was so nervous about training a new breed and I think I put to much focus on that instead of seeing the puppy in front of me, I was looking at the Aussies of my past. Without sounding all emotional, but last night I think I saw Dexter for Dexter. Not Royce, not an Aussie, or even a Berner. Just Dexter and all he has to offer and the dog he has the potential to grow into and it all clicked after that. I'm sure we will still have our struggles but I'm really looking forward to the journey.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Aw, that is really sweet


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have a clicker but to be honest, I usually forget about it. My last two dogs have learned to sit by me just waiting them out for a treat. I don't think either of them would know what I wanted if I pushed down on their rears. Their downs I have used luring and waited them out and both have really good and fast downs. As I wanted a good solid stand with Kris, I do not want her to change position when I push on her back in the stand and she has the most solid stand I have ever had in any dog.


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## ChelseaOliver (Nov 5, 2014)

Canyx said:


> Day one. Like others have said, it is mostly Its Yer Choice/NILF and rewarding for any correct behaviors right off the bat. But I do start working on cues from the get go too. With a young puppy I wouldn't drill the obedience and I would prioritize all the other stuff. But an 8 week puppy can certainly start learning 'Sit' and other behaviors.


This! I found with the short attention span it was helpful to turn things into games a lot of the time. I also very very consistently from the first hour she was home rewarded and praised her for doing the right things like chewing on appropriate items etc. Also redirecting biting with your chosen method right away.


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