# The Bully Kutta -my ideas concerning its origin



## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

The Bully Kutta and the Alaunt relation



we have some pretty knowledgable people here, so i thought we could discuss the realtion of different breeds with the alaunt and i want to start with the bully kutta first. i would say the bully kutta has alaunt blood from two sides. most people will at first think of british dogs, but knowing where the alans, or let´s say their ancestors, came from, it makes more sense to start with ancient persia. we know that the alans were located in the caucasus and from there migrated to europe later. we could call the alans a subdivision of the sarmatians who had their origin where the iran is located now. (iran-caucasus-europe) with that said the first alaunt relation of the bully kutta are persian LGDs such as the "Persian Sarabi Dog" aka "Persian Mastiff". in india these short coated LGDs (shepherds´ mastiffs of the alang tribes) were later called "Alangu Mastiffs" due to the fact alani tribes became known as alang tribes there. 
the "Alangu Mastiff" is wrongly called "Sindh Mastiff" sometimes. it is a misnomer because they are not from sindh, but from iran.
the british influence later is both celtic- and alaunt influence, as both tribes, the celts and the alans, where the main influence to the short coated european dogge types. the dogs the britains later brought to the indian subcontinent.

i have created the graphic above to show my views on the origin of the bully kutta, its alaunt relation and its development. i have tried my best using paint.  
for me the starting point of the BK is when the native indian sighthounds melted together with large LGDs from persia. (both of them you can see at the top of the pic.) the ancient large persian mastiffs were LGDs like the sarabi dog. (in phenotype they were pretty much like kangals, maybe even a bit like the aksaray malaks sometimes). in general all LGD types in the middle east are similar dogs, namely ancient "primitive/original" mastiffs. 
just look at the various human migrations and influence of civilizations on modern day pakistan. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan. mind you, all these lands have giant LGD type dogs i.e. kangals, sarabis, aksaray Malaks, CAO types....
however i would say the sighthound influence was big enough that the BK was more leaning towards a large hunting mastiff, while the ancient LGD types (the original central asian mastiffs) added power and size. these hunting (running) mastiffs were propably a type we could call the "prototype bully kutta".
with the british invasion in india later also british blood was added, mainly of butchers´ alaunts (the name used for the bulldog types) and this was when the modern bully kutta arose. these british dogs for sure added determination & gameness. i explained this further on my chart.
*i would like to hear your thoughts and opinions too!*

more opinions:
http://breed-encyclopedia.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=36&p=192#p192
http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=6&p=12200#p12200

well, me personally i neither agree with people who deny that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with the guys who are portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have large LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we already had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no "pure" fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding) with the ability to fight if needed. the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood, which was added for hunting.


_sunnyAK_


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I looked them up last year, but to tell you the truth after my stories are finished with I only remember some info. I do remember they're great guard dogs, they're protective, and are loyal. The way I see it is that they just were bred from other guard dogs, or bully breeds, years ago and it turned into them. Just like with any dog bred, they start out with others and then work their way towards what people like. The dog in my story had to be tough and so I put a Bully Kutta in. The dog's name was Ares. 

Interesting info you have there though.


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## Firestorm (Feb 21, 2010)

Intriguing history of the breed. I assume these breeds are often mistaken as pit bulls? Though I don't see how they can be..


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## Bandogge (Feb 23, 2013)

@ Firestorm
I would say they are much to large to be mistaken for a pit bull.
I always was sure that Bully Kuttas were related with Sage Koochees, but after seing some these Persian Sarabi LGDs, they indeed seem to be extremely close to the Bully Kuttas only that BKs have completely smooth coat. Very interesting!


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

here is an interesting video, maybe you guys like to share your thoughts about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WV1hs7UM9s


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## Bandogge (Feb 23, 2013)

A lot of them obviously are still modern mixes. Sometimes they look like hounds and sometimes a bit more mastiff-type.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

When I put a rare breed in one of my stories, I make sure I can remember what the breed looks like and differentiate them between other dogs that may look like them. So with the Bully Kutta, as Bandogge was saying that they can look like other breeds, I now know what they look like and can pull it up the breed up in my mind, if need be, and maybe guess what breed it is (if someone asks). I guarantee I won't always be right. The one in my story looked like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Indian_Mastiff_Bully_Kutta.jpg

Hope y'all got what I meant above.


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> When I put a rare breed in one of my stories, I make sure I can remember what the breed looks like and differentiate them between other dogs that may look like them. So with the Bully Kutta, as Bandogge was saying that they can look like other breeds, I now know what they look like and can pull it up the breed up in my mind, if need be, and maybe guess what breed it is (if someone asks). I guarantee I won't always be right. The one in my story looked like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Indian_Mastiff_Bully_Kutta.jpg
> 
> Hope y'all got what I meant above.


this is quite interesting, as this one always is used as a perfect example of an Alangu Mastiff or Indian Mastiff. if i have more time left i will say more on this matter.

i don´t agree with the stuff the person mentions in this article. http://indian-mastiff.blogspot.de/p/bully-kutta-vs-indian-mastiff.html he says that white always comes from bull & terr breeds. of course it can come from bull & terr breeds in some cases, but there can always be many reasons for white colour, like native sighthounds for example. by the way, many bull breeds used to be brindle.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I think with that article you posted, Lemmik, is a recessive gene in the dog. Somewhere along their lines, the white color came into play and now they can come in that color. Many breeds are descended from lots of older and extinct dogs, maybe the Bully Kutta is like that too. So yeah, I don't think just one dog played a part in their color role. 

And before you posted this thread and when I was doing my story, I only saw them in the brown coloring. Now I see them in the white coloring when I pull their pictures up on Google. They almost look different, but I guess many breeds can look different when you put a different coat color on them.

Oh yeah they also said that they're dog aggressive. I don't remember reading that in the wiki article because the dog in my story works with other dogs. I'm sure if they're socialized they should be fine.


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## Bandogge (Feb 23, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> I think with that article you posted, Lemmik, is a recessive gene in the dog. Somewhere along their lines, the white color came into play and now they can come in that color.


Very intersting. I don´t know that much about it, so could you please explain it a bit deeper with the recessive gene and white. I only know that white can be seen in LGDs quite often (also white with red, fawn or black marks often around an eye) and that white can also often be seen in Bulldogs. It is an old Alaunt colour. Only the french alaunts were often red, but they also had white dogs with red marks.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm not a genetic expert by any means Bandogge, but from what I understand of dog coloring from reading books is that a recessive gene could be in them. Okay let me do a human example: your dad and mom have brown hair, but when they have a child, the child has red hair. How could this happen? Well maybe a recessive gene was in the child from, say the father's side because his grandmother had red hair. It's still there and can come out and did in this child. And when the child grows up, she could have a red-headed child as well. 

I believe dogs can be the same way. And if dogs mate with strays, say it's before the whole breeding program started, maybe that stray held a gene in them for that type of color. The only example I can think of is of the tricolor GSD. Who knew a GSD could come in tricolor (well except for those who already knew, lol)? I love dog breeds and never knew they could come in that color. I'm guessing somewhere along the way that gene was introduced somehow by another breed that had the gene in them.

Someone could tell you about genes better than I could, but that's what I know of it. There's actually a thread somewhere around here talking about coat colors and people's intake on the genes from them. I forget exactly which thread it is, but here's what I found in the search results: http://www.dogforums.com/search.php?searchid=3540194
(I hope it helps you out more than what I explained)


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## Bandogge (Feb 23, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> I'm not a genetic expert by any means Bandogge, but from what I understand of dog coloring from reading books is that a recessive gene could be in them. Okay let me do a human example: your dad and mom have brown hair, but when they have a child, the child has red hair. How could this happen? Well maybe a recessive gene was in the child from, say the father's side because his grandmother had red hair. It's still there and can come out and did in this child. And when the child grows up, she could have a red-headed child as well.
> 
> I believe dogs can be the same way. And if dogs mate with strays, say it's before the whole breeding program started, maybe that stray held a gene in them for that type of color. The only example I can think of is of the tricolor GSD. Who knew a GSD could come in tricolor (well except for those who already knew, lol)? I love dog breeds and never knew they could come in that color. I'm guessing somewhere along the way that gene was introduced somehow by another breed that had the gene in them.
> 
> ...


Very good post thank you mate! I even know a family where both the lady and gentleman have brown hair and the son has red hair lol and I am not so stupid to think it does mean she had someone else and is fooling her husband. You are right this can happen. Concerning dogs I even don't thin white is recessive as so many breeds & types are base on white. LGDs & Bulldogs are in most cases white, then also the british bull & terr dogs are white and you still can see this in the Gull Terr of Pakistan that is basically the Hinky Bull Terrier. I really think because of the british bull & terr dogs many BKs with a lot of bull & terr influence look very similar to the Dogo Argentino!


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## Bandogge (Feb 23, 2013)

By the way, longer ago I read somewhere that the colour brindle comes from sighthound crosses, if it is correct i just don´t know.


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

i will add some info now, including a collection of posts & quotes:

















*Temperament and phenotype*

The “Beast from the East”, a title given to the Bully Kutta because of its aggressive nature in dog fights, or let´s say to its pretty good will to continue fighting, especially if you consider that it is a large dog and most large dog breeds are not that much focused on fighting for no reason, or are simply not bred as match-dogs. However the breed is bred for fighting and shaped by this purpose. With proper socialization and appropriate training, the Bully Kutta can make an amenable companion for dog owners. They can be protective, but when it comes to guarding don´t expect too much of them. Many people living in Pakistan say almost anyone can walk up to them, unhook the chain and walk away with them.
Judging by their build, being long legged and not too massive I expect them to be good large game hunters. The Pakistani Bully Kutta is a powerful mastiff-type dog. Long-legged and with a medium wide chest, this breed is agile and quick, capable of great speed and known for its impressive stamina. The head is medium broad with a long muzzle and not typical “mastiff-like”.

To answer a few questions from my point of view, that have been asked here on another board: (It is a bit like frequently asked questions.)


populator135 said:


> Do any of you dog "experts" out there believe that this breed is the most formidable domestic canine of them all ?


No, I don´t think it is the most fomidable animal. However we first would have to define the word "most fomidable". There is no "most formidable" breed for me anyway, it often is more the individual and the breeding as well as the line.
For me a dog breed or a type had to to be way more versatile than a Bully Kutta to deserve a title like "most formidable".


A Bully Gull Terr for example, also known as Gull Dong, is a much better guard dog and serves more purposes unlike the majority of the Bully Kuttas. As mentioned before when it comes to guarding don´t expect them to be dismissive towards people and make good guard dogs. The breeding goal has never been a versatile one. Bully Gull Terrs can match Bully Kuttas and have defeated them in the past, so they can match them in their own game, while being pretty good guard dogs too, so all in all it makes them more versatile dogs.
I personally don´t think Bully Kuttas can be seen as a “pure, unchanged eastern breed” as when it comes to dog fighting, people in general use what works.
You also see a difference between fighting Bully Kuttas of the past and the present, while many describe the older fighting dogs as being boring in their style and looking more like dogs in a contest of stamina and wrestling, new Bully Kuttas have popped up with more bull & terr influence and a modified fighting style. 



Mosquiller said:


> BKs are overrated.
> tall, narrow, hound-shaped head and body. can't be the best fighter.
> (I'm against dog fighting btw).


You have made a good point mate. It obviously is a difference if you evenly match dogs or have a dog that has to inflict big damage against a wild predator even in the first minutes. One dog might be good for dog vs dog combat again talking about evenly matched dogs and the other dog for fighting wild predators and there are breeds, crosses and types that could shine in both combat and a not “staged” scenario. By the way, in the latter (fighting wild predators and being able to make very good match dogs) often crosses excel. Bully Kuttas are good on the long run, due to their stretched build and not having too much mass, on the other side they are not the dogs that dog much damage on average and their heads are not built for such a high bite force as many western mastiff-type dogs or some LGDs. The contests are more based on which dog lasts longer in terms of stamina and will to keep on fighting.

The Bully Kuttas on Kashmir side are bigger, due to having more Gaddi Kutta influence, the latter is another local LGD type. This results in thicker skin and thicker coats (a bit more fur). Due to the LGD influence these dogs have bigger heads and sometimes larger teeth and are able to make more damage than "normal" Bully Kuttas. The usual Bully Kutta has indeed a "houndish" head shape and has more the phenotype like Mosquiller decribes it and without any doubt they have sighthound influence. 

One more thing to all readers, don´t confuse Gull Terrs with Bully Gull Terrs aka Gull Dongs, as Bully Gull Terrs are a mix of Gull Terrs with Bully Kuttas, with more Gull Terr blood in most cases. Gull Terrs are based on the EBTs (English Bullterriers) that have been brought to the Indian sub-continent.

Bully Kuttas are more often than not, able to defeat Afghani Sage Koochee, the LGD from Afghanistan, due to Bully Kuttas having the advantage of longer hind legs with better/more angulation and also due to being more willed. (Their mindset is better for combat.) Sage Koochees are often open-hocked and lack angulation, so the Sage Koochee cannot be seen as a proper representative of all types of LGDs and for sure also not of all types of mastiff-type dogs, no matter if western-mastiff type dog, or eastern mastiff-type dog. (A proper German Mastiff for example has pretty good hind legs for wrestling.)
Here a picture to show some differences:
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy282/sunnyAK1/hindlegsangulation.png
Accidentally I have seen some Sage Koochees in mixed tournaments with Bully Kuttas, as the internet is sadly full of such stuff and the Sage Koochees were more like the dog in the middle, which is not good for having a solid grip to the ground, while standing on the hind legs. Standing on their hind legs they had problems against the BKs and fell to the ground much to easily. Just like you see it in the graphic above, looking at the dog in the middle. The distance between the feet is too close, combined with a lack of angulation.

Some more history and controversy:
This legendary Pakistani/Indian fighting dog (although we have to say that the Pakistani dogs are the better bred fighters) is thought by some of its fanciers to have remained pure and unchanged since ancient times, while others question its true origin and background. Although there is some evidence that the Pakistani Bully Kutta was developed from the Sage Koochee and there are lines with Gaddi influence another native LGD type, old Persian Alaunts, Afghani Gawi Bulldogs, Indian Mastiffs, Assyrian Mastiffs and dogs introduced by Alexander the Great, who in opposite to many peoples knowledge also brought dogs to the Indian sub-continent (although most people only know the story that he brought TM-like dogs back to his country, but he died on his way back) and many other types that people bring into play, quite a few authorities believe it is a result of crossing local hunting dogs, especially sighthounds with German Mastiffs, German Pointers, English Mastiffs and Bulldog types, as well as other western breeds brought to the region by the British soldiers in the 1700's.
It is a know fact, that the same type of English Bull Terriers that have been brought to Argentina, have been brought to India too and Pakistan used to be an Indian province. 
I personally don´t believe the “ancient pure Pakistani breed story”, but I also don´t think they are just German Mastiff crosses. However if you cross certain sighthound types to Mastiffs, no matter where they are from, you will get similar dogs in phenotype as German Mastiffs.

Interbreeding between both of these types mentioned a few lines before, was common and while a small number of “true Bully Kutta bloodlines” howsoever you define “true” have supposedly been preserved, much of the breed's gene pool has been corrupted.
But let´s face the facts that I have mentioned earlier. Fighting dogs that are still fought nowadays have been improved by crossing any dog into the breed that worked and helped to get the desired result, a good match-dog, so this is how I see the Bully Kutta. I neither see it as a British result or some German Mastiff crosses, but for sure also not as ancient and unchanged Pakistani breed. Some say even the name of the breed was indicative of the influence foreigners had on the region, translating simply to "Bully Dog", but here I have to disagree, as Bully Kutta does not mean „Bully type dog“, like it can be read on MolosserDogs, but wrinkled dog! “The word Bully actually derives from the languages of Sindhi and Hindi-Urdu as bohli — meaning heavily wrinkled. “
The explanations offered by the breed fanciers for the apparent non-existence of the pre-colonial name for the controversial Pakistani Mastiff range from suggesting that the Bully Kutta is the continuation of the original Persian Alaunt to it actually being the same thing as the thought to be the extinct Gawii, but further research is required to establish whether these claims are valid or simple wishful thinking. 

Regardless of the true ancestry of the breed, the Bully Kutta's popularity in its homeland remains reasonably strong, mostly due to much of the country's acceptance of dog-fighting tournaments as a way of life, although it should be noted that the practice of outcrossing hadn't been fully abandoned in some parts of Pakistan even after the British left the region, with many other breeds having been created using both the original Bully Kutta and its descendants over the years. Some of these newer Mastiff types are the Kohati Bulldogge, Nagi Bulldogge, Sargodha Bulldogge, Kanda Bulldogge and the Pakistani Boarhound. Nowadays, all of these breeds are being incorrectly classified as one and the same, especially in the West, where the Bully Kutta is slowly becoming popular. In recent years, these dogs have been assigned the misleading "Central-Asian Mastiff" name, which conveniently does away with individual categorization of actual breeds and varieties found in the region, allowing the breeders of such animals to promote their stock in the West under a new exotic label, without having to worry about the actual ancestry of the dogs they import, breed and sell. 
One more thought of mine, beside that we have to say that no dog like the Bully Kutta can be found in the surrounding countries of India and Pakistan, including countries that belonged to former Assyria and this is definitely a valid doubt that the dogs are the dogs that used to be know as Assyrian Mastiffs or the dogs know as “Babylonian dogs”. Beside that some of the mural reliefs in Ninive even resemble way more a St. Bernard than a Bully Kutta in my opinion.

Some fanciers in its home country claim that the best examples of “pure” Bully Kuttas were never sold to foreigners or even expatriates visiting Pakistan, inferior dogs were readily available for export, with some authorities pointing out that the majority of Western-bred bloodlines aren't pure, having been crossed with various European dogs to soften the temperament and increase population. I agree to the latter, but I guess to countries like South Korea, where different fighting dogs are tested, they won´t sell inferior dogs. Fortunately, the true pure Bully Kutta, whatever that is, as I don´t regard “true pure” as a dog of pre British colonial times, can still be found in some areas of Pakistan, where it is regarded by many as a national treasure. Sad but true this breed is still used today for what it was created centuries ago, which is the ever popular "sport" of dog-fighting and bear-baiting, especially the latter is the biggest crime, as the bears are chained, have no claws and no teeth. For the terrible "event" of bear biting, Gull Terrs and Bully Gull Terrs are usually preferred. 
I think a meaningful and useful alternative to dog on dog combat would be large game hunting for the breed, maybe even in a combination between a male and female dog.

The average size is 32cm while a few very tall dogs exist, with almost the size of German Mastiffs or Irish Wolfhounds.

_sunnyAK_

http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

User1 said:


> As some of you may know, suliman and I don't agree on the origins of the bully kutta. To put it mildly :lol:
> Suliman believes the bully kutta is a direct descendent of ancient fighting mastiffs from ancient civilisations in the indus valley region (or something along those lines, correct me if I'm wrong), while I believe they're clearly descendents of western big-game hunting dogs brought to the sub-continent by the british.
> 
> When I proposed seizer origins to suliman, he had a few rather weak arguments against that idea. I intend to point out the mistakes in his arguments, and also illustrate how blatantly similar western hunting mastiffs were to bully kuttas in appearance around the time that the british went to india.
> ...


http://sunnyak.forenworld.at/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=715


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

the reply and a very different point of view:


suliman said:


> Gun said:
> 
> 
> > *The truth is suliman acts like a **** to me, and I act like a bit of a **** back*, but I definitely hold back more than I say and try to keep it focussed on the dogs, unlike him.
> ...


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

suliman said:


> WORKMAN said:
> 
> 
> > How ironic is it that there are no short haired mastiff type seizing dogs in the continent of Asia today outside of the Indo/Paki region which coicedentally was occupied by Westerners? Why did these dogs spread nowhere else. The only big dogs in Asia remaining outside of the Indo/Paki area are the mountain and/or LGD types yet we are supposed to believe that these short haired mastiffs reamined only in the Indo/paki area?
> ...


well, me personally i neither agree with workman and gun denying that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with you suliman and shah, portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have giant LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding). the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood.

so in my opinion this map is more useful, as it shows the influence of large ancient mastiff types (shepherds´mastiffs) on the bully kutta.


i also still wonder why so many pakistani people claim that only they have "original bully kuttas" and indians don´t have them. it makes absolutely no sense!


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

suliman said:


> WORKMAN said:
> 
> 
> > How ironic is it that there are no short haired mastiff type seizing dogs in the continent of Asia today outside of the Indo/Paki region which coicedentally was occupied by Westerners? Why did these dogs spread nowhere else. The only big dogs in Asia remaining outside of the Indo/Paki area are the mountain and/or LGD types yet we are supposed to believe that these short haired mastiffs reamined only in the Indo/paki area?
> ...


well, me personally i neither agree with workman and gun denying that india had larger mastiff types before british people arrived, (mainly used for hunting) nor do i agree with you suliman and shah, portraying the bully kutta as a dog that fell from the sky somewhere in pakistan, having no influence of large shepherds´mastiffs such as sarabi dogs etc. turks, persians (iraq, iran), huns and central asian incursions into pakistan should not be forgotten. all these lands have giant LGD type dogs such as kangals, sarabi dogs, aksaray malakis, CAO types etc. and they melted togethers with native hunting dogs from india. so there we had a prototype bully kutta, but this dog was no fighting dog yet. it was more a multi-purpose dog (hunting & guarding). the culling for fighting began later and there the mixing took place. (butchers´alaunts and some other types the british took with them). i don´t think british people added more hunting types as they would not be useful for fighting and the prototype BK already had enough sighthound blood.

so in my opinion this map is more useful, as it shows the influence of large ancient mastiff types (shepherds´mastiffs) on the bully kutta.


i also still wonder why so many pakistani people claim that only they have "original bully kuttas" and indians don´t have them. it makes absolutely no sense!


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

IamTitanium said:


> the internet is full of stuff about BKs, including different claims about the size and weight of a true BK.
> it can be read that true BKs are sometimes or even frequently 90kg and more than 90cm in size. other people say that these are made up stories and that huge BKs are not true bullies, but western Mastiff crosses, including German Mastiffs etc.
> any opinions about it :?:
> 
> ...


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

overread the personal issues between guys there, just try to get out what is fact, fiction and/or agenda:



IamTitanium said:


> suliman said:
> 
> 
> > Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time. Following is my humble opinion about this topic.
> ...


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

the bully kutta, in its true form an alaunt veantre?! (large running mastiff)



sunnyAK said:


> the celt said:
> 
> 
> > bully kutta is a mixed breed, before that in india the dogs where of sighthound build, if we all believe the great shah, then why where these dogs not brought back by europeans, also he puts down the indian dogs saying pakistan dogs are better, but lets remember pakistan only was born in late 1940s
> ...


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

overread the personal issues between guys there, just try to get out what is fact, fiction and/or agenda:



IamTitanium said:


> suliman said:
> 
> 
> > Shah jee very pleased to see you posting again after some time. Following is my humble opinion about this topic.
> ...


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

the theory about the bully kutta being an ancient unchanged breed sometimes is based on the thought that the bully kutta is the "babylonian dog", but looking at where babylon is/was located this makes no sense. why should this dog die out in iraq and be preserved in pakistan and then even unchanged.



sunnyAK said:


> I am inclined to think that it is far more likely that these mastiff-type dogs sculptured on the Assyrian slabs, mural relief etc. were a breed which either existed in Assyria itself at that date or was introduced from Sarmatia, Albania, Hyrcania, or Iberia, or some of those northern parts of Asia above' Armenia, which we read of having possessed dogs large, and courageous enough that they were able coped with the lion successfully. Beside that the mural reliefs show dogs more similar to a Kangal and in some cases also to a smooth coated St. Bernard (or extinct Alpine Mastiff) than to the shaggy, long coated Mastiff of Tibet.
> The Pontic-Caspian steppe is the vast steppeland stretching from the northern shores of the Black Sea as far east as the Caspian Sea, from western Ukraine across the Southern Federal District and the Volga Federal District of Russia to western Kazakhstan, forming part of the larger Eurasian steppe, adjacent to the Kazakh steppe to the east. It is of the paleartic temperate grasslands, savannas, and shrublands ecoregion of the temperate grasslands, savannas, and shrublands biome.
> The area corresponds to Scythia and Sarmatia of Classical antiquity. Across several millennia the steppe was used by numerous tribes of nomadic horsemen, many of which went on to conquer lands in the settled regions of Europe and in western and southern Asia. It was finally brought under the control of a sedentary people by the Russian Empire in the 16th to 18th centuries.
> The term Ponto-Caspian region is used in biogeography for plants and animals of these steppes, and animals from the Black, Caspian and Azov seas. Genetic research has identified this region as the most probable place where horses were first domesticated. It is known that the Sarmatians had large dogs. were an Iranian people in Classical Antiquity, flourishing from about the 5th century BC to the 4th century AD.
> ...


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

sorry double post.


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

quite interesting too is this thread:
http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9883567/1/


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Bandogge--are the Bull and Terr dogs still around? I hear different things from different sites, one says they're extinct while others talk of them still being around. So which is it? And that's interesting that they look similar to the Dogo Argentino.

Lemmik--that was an extremely interesting read, thank you! I have a question if you don't mind, I put the breed (the Bully Kutta) in a late story of mine. But the breed isn't good with other dogs, I've read. I want a good solid fighter for my story (don't worry my dog character is fighting werewolves), would a Bully Kutta work? Or shall I pick another rare breed?


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## 52266 (Jun 18, 2012)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> Bandogge--are the Bull and Terr dogs still around? I hear different things from different sites, one says they're extinct while others talk of them still being around. So which is it? And that's interesting that they look similar to the Dogo Argentino.
> 
> Lemmik--that was an extremely interesting read, thank you! I have a question if you don't mind, I put the breed (the Bully Kutta) in a late story of mine. But the breed isn't good with other dogs, I've read. I want a good solid fighter for my story (don't worry my dog character is fighting werewolves), would a Bully Kutta work? Or shall I pick another rare breed?


OK, I will answere for both your questions. The british bull & terr dogs are still around in Pakistan and India and the Kohati Bulldog and Kohati Bull Terr are very close to the tough old fighting dogs.

For your story I would use another rare breed, maybe a big capable, but also ancient one and one that is able to fight organized in packs. Normally I would have said celtic wolfhounds, but it would be cooler to use a breed that is still alive, so the Tobet from Kazakhstan should be a good choice for your story! Here is a picture of such an impressive "wolfkiller".


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Lemmik--thank you very much!! You should write your knowledge about these dogs on Wiki and other sites as I didn't learn as nearly as much info on the Bully Kutta from them as I did from you. And another cool breed to write down in my rare dog breed journal, cool! I can't wait to look them up and research them! 

Okay so the Bully Kutta is out because it probably would fight with the other dogs, thanks. Thanks for looking for another wolf killer because I based the breeds I used for that reason. I have never heard of the Tobet! Is it pronounced as toe-bit or toe-bet? 

That breed is way too amazing and cute to kill off (my dog character dies in the story). But it did have me looking up again other rare fighting dog breeds. I think I just found one!! How about the Brazilian Bandogge; what do you think? It doesn't say anything about wolves, but they are a fighting breed that aren't wary of strangers or have any issues with other dogs. 

I have this other story in my head and since seeing this breed I'm thinking, move over Fila....maybe this one can be in my upcoming one.


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## Bandogge (Feb 23, 2013)

I agree with Spirit_of_Cotons a big THANKS to Lemmik for the valuable information about the Bully Kutta and not just one sided stuff.

The Bully Kutta seems to differ a lot from native European types such as their Bärrenbeisser/Bullebeisser. It is way more a Sighthound x Mastiff than a Bulldog type.

@ Spirit_of_Cotons 
For how long are you into writing your own "stories". It sounds very interesting! Will you publish it in future?


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Bandogge--I've been writing stories ever since I can remember. When I was a junior in high school, I started writing longer stories and yes, I hope to publish them in the future. I'm actually looking up how to publish them and will write to an author and ask how to get started. Thank you for saying my stories sound interesting!!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> I'm not a genetic expert by any means Bandogge, but from what I understand of dog coloring from reading books is that a recessive gene could be in them. Okay let me do a human example: your dad and mom have brown hair, but when they have a child, the child has red hair. How could this happen? Well maybe a recessive gene was in the child from, say the father's side because his grandmother had red hair. It's still there and can come out and did in this child. And when the child grows up, she could have a red-headed child as well.
> 
> I believe dogs can be the same way. And if dogs mate with strays, say it's before the whole breeding program started, maybe that stray held a gene in them for that type of color. The only example I can think of is of the tricolor GSD. Who knew a GSD could come in tricolor (well except for those who already knew, lol)? I love dog breeds and never knew they could come in that color. I'm guessing somewhere along the way that gene was introduced somehow by another breed that had the gene in them.
> 
> ...


If it's recessive it has to come from both parents just saying. 
If you breed two black nose Pits & they produce some red nose Pits those pups had to get a liver allele from each parent.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Lol, well like I said...I'm no genetic expert. If someone wants to come in and explain genetics here, by all means go right on ahead! Maybe you can Spicy1_VV.


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