# Schutzhund



## icarusflies (Oct 1, 2014)

Hello Everybody;

Well, so my puppy is already 11 months old and he is a great dog.

I don´t know if this is the right sub-forum to post this so forgive me if it is not.

I am interested in doing some Schutzhund training with my Malinois but there are no clubs close by. I will be moving to Germany soon and there I wont have a problem finding a club. However in the mean time I would like to start

This is the background:

-My puppy is an 11 month old male Malinois.
-I have done obedience training with a trainer. He follows all be basic commands and more but I am bored to practice the same things and my puppy is bored too.
-I bought this book: SCHUTZHUND (Theory and Training Methods) by Susan Barwig and Stewart Hillay)

How could I start introducing my Dod to Schutzhund (obedience and Tracking) without a trainer? of course I will not touch the Protection part until supervised.

So there is my question: How to start in Schutzhund when there is not a club around.

Thanks a lot


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I would start by teaching a really solid heel along with unwavering focus / attention. Tyler Muto has some decent youtube vids that show pivoting etc, look those up.

You'll need a good retrieve as well. I believe kikopup also has some youtube vids that show how to teach it by using R+. If you're inexperienced, I'd limit teaching this to 'on the flat' until 1) your dog physically matures a bit more and 2) you're able to receive proper instruction on jump mechanics / conditioning, in-person. 


FTR, I'm not an expert on schutzhund, but those two elements seem rather fundamental to me. And I think you'll be fine teaching them in the interim, providing variety and injecting some interest into training. They'll help to bridge the gap until you can hook up with a pro trainer.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I think part of the problem with training any Sch stuff yourself is that there are often specific ways that they require the dogs to perform. In tracking for example, you could probably teach your dog to track well enough for an AKC trial, but in IPO they are looking for a specific style and you may end up having to teach it all over again. Or even with heeling, most people who teach heeling for AKC sports do not require the same precision or style as IPO heeling, so you may need to retrain some stuff. So just keep all of that in mind. Not that you can't start the basic stuff, but try to stick to IPO specific websites and things to make sure you're working on the right things.

Can you train with a toy? If you throw the toy as a reward will your dog bring it back and push it at you to tug again? IPO people use toys a lot in training and if your dog already has that down it will make things easier. It's hard to reward with a toy if your dog just runs off with it. 

Michael Ellis has some great videos. I have a subscription to BowWowFlix (like Netflix for dog videos) and lots of his videos are available there so you don't need to buy them. I think the best ones to start with would be the Power of Training Dogs With Food, The Power of Playing Tug, and Focused Heeling. These will give you good foundations for going into IPO.


----------



## icarusflies (Oct 1, 2014)

Thank you guys for the good info.

I ll have a look to the videos.


----------



## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

Here is a site where you can get videos and more info on the sport.
http://leerburg.com/schusa.htm

You can certainly train tracking and obedience yourself. Get the rules from Schutzhund U,S.A. If you can find a club near you they would help with what is required for obedience and tracking.

To score well in tracking the dog must follow the track in a sure confident manner without pulling on the line. When he find the articles he should lay down with it between his front paws. He must not mouth or nuzzle it. At the judges signal you go and pick up the article and hold it up for the judge to see. Then command the dog to proceed on the rest of the track. This is just a nutshell.

For obedience you will need a retrieve of a weighted dumb bell, a jump over a 1 meter jump, usually brush covered. For Sch 3 he will need to go over a 6 foot inclined wall with a dumb bell. You need very precise heal with the dog watching you, no lagging or forging. Style is judged. Before you can compete for a Sch l you need to pass the BH which is roughly the same as canine good citizen. You can check the rules for exactly what it requires.

I'll leave the protection out of it as you will have to be evaluated before you even start. Not all dogs can do this... Even Mals.

If you go to Germany the sport will be a way of life. Almost every small town has a Schutzhund club.


----------



## icarusflies (Oct 1, 2014)

Thank you very much for the info


----------



## Mesonoxian (Oct 16, 2014)

Though I currently have no personal experience, I'm also very very interested in pursuing SchH/IPO with a future dog of mine. I've read books, websites, articles, and many forum threads on the subject, and asked your same question. Everyone who responded to me told me that working with a club from the start is really the best way to go. Many gave personal examples of their own dogs who they started training at home, and as soon as they joined a club, they had to do a lot of re-training, and that took a LOT of time. In IPO, there really is a certain "style" within each phase that garners better scores, and getting the correct behavior right off the bat is a huge plus, in my book. 

I would second the advice to check out Michael Ellis' stuff. I really like what I see of his material, and have found it majorly helpful with my current dog.

When I get closer to actually getting a puppy that _may_ be suitable for IPO, I'm planning to visit clubs a few times before I even get the puppy. This is to optimistically find a club that I really like, and also hopefully pick up some info before my attention is torn between crazy-puppy management and information intake.

Also keep in mind that if your dog is bored with the same old, same old, SchH/IPO may not be the right thing for him as it's essentially a routine that is repeated (more so in OB and Protection, tracking always varies). Have you looked into other combination protection sports? Some of them offer a little more variety within the phases/exercises. (SDA, Mondio, and French Ring come to mind as possibilities.) Other protections sports may also be more popular in your area, and it may be easier to find a trainer/club for one sport than another.

As far as what you can practice on your own, I would think that developing good play drive and a very solid "out" can be done at home, but again, take my non-participant advice with a few grains of salt!

Now, a personal suggestion I _can_ make (and I do have experience here), is to try some fun trick training with your puppy! Not IPO related at all, but you can develop a huge variety of behaviors, which may be good for a puppy who is easily bored.


----------



## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

Icarus.., so you have a Mal. Great! Hope fully this guy is the REALY high powered dog that is desired. You noted you will move to Germany eventually. You should not have difficulty finding clubs there. Nearly every town over 5000 population has a club. Maybe even a dog type specific.

So for now try to get to a local Sch club and just watch. You may even find someone with a Mal. Judges will like a very animated but well controlled performance. For obedience the dog must watch you all the time and heel exactly in correct position. You will need to move faster than the GSD and Rotties in order to present your dog properly. You need a Slow, Normal, and Fast pace for all 3 levels. There is a precise pattern you need to learn both left and right hand. The field will normally be about a football (American) field size. You need a long down with handler out of sight. 10-15 minutes for training. The field I just started with is twice that size. Get the United Schutzhund Club rule book. Here is your first tracking lesson....I normally would post a link....you find it instead. 

Look up Ray Allen Dog Supplies for equipment. You might as well get a tracking lead and start using it. It needs to be 30 meters (make sure, Europe is metric). Susan Barwig book is old but there is still a lot of good information in it. Be aware that the sport has changed a lot since it was written.

Set some achievable goals. Plan on training 3-4 days at least a week. Your dog should be able to start beginning protection training. It depends on the club trainer. You need to start learning about this traing too even though you may not be a helper yourself. There are ladies doing it and while not as physical are very good at reading or understanding the dog so they get the most out of him.

Introduce your dog to a tug reward and reduce or eliminate food reward. He gets release from the work through the tug by carying it around. He can start learning Out here too. You will need to have it in an easy to use position. Watch some of the other at your club.

Your first goal will be to score a BH. You need this before you can move on to SCH I. (tracking lesson 2, look it up) haha. I'm not going to give you everything on a on plate.

Go easy on jumps for a few more months until the dog is full grown. The jump is 1 meter 39.37 inches. The inclined wall is 2 meters. Most USA clubs it turns out to be 6 feet. Practice throwing the dumb bell. Grip it by one end, swing back then forward arc. Try to hit a given spot every time. Don't throw it too far. Your dog only needs 20 feet to clear the jump easily. A little farther for the wall. There may be a spec in the rule now. ( Lesson 3 look it up)

I'm getting a bit windy so here is how I started tracking:
Hot dogs and liver cut to 3/8 in pieces.
Cheap nail pouch to carry it in
Tracking line
6 foot leash
Articles ...Jean patches work great
Surveyor flags and 3/8 x36 in wood dowels, sharpen one end
Black 18 in tall rubber boots (the grass is usually wet)
Dog crate
Tug reward
Nice clean field

Ok, start about 6-7 am if you can it's quiet and there should not have been tracks all over the field.
Your start will be a triangle well tramped down 3 feet wide 6 feet long. An arrow head.
At the long point place a couple food treats. Then you will heel to toe about 10 feet. At each toe place one food treat. At the last one place a food treat then slightly ahead place the article. Separately you must train the dog to down with this article between his front paws. He must lie straight ahead not angled and must not play with the article.
The dog is brought to the wide part of the triangle and guided to snif around it it. You gradually direct him to the point where he finds the food treat. Guide him forward to the first foot print and to the reward. Continue to the end. Praise verbally at each find. When he finds the article give him the tug reward.

What you are teaching here is for the dog to scent damaged ground, grass in this case. Not air scent the dog must keep his nose close to the ground. You will continue these tracks until the dog quickly picks up the boundaries of the triangle and finds the track then works it out. It's slow going at first. The command is usually Such (sook) I think Susan Barwig uses this method in her book. There are variants of it. We trained my dog and his liter mate who was a certified bomb dog to track on bare pavement on a blistering hot day using this method to start. The bomb dog scored a perfect bank robbery suspect capture shortly after his certification for this type of tracking. The guy was arrested and convicted of armed robbery.

Some clubs can have substantial membership dues others not so much. Clubs are full of serious dog people so you can get lots of help. Do be careful to sort out the BS however so you need to be aware of real proven info too.

So that's it for now. If you want more just ask. I just got back into the sport however my dog will only go to BH level and practice AD. I'm just going to be advisor on occasion and practice judge critic as my knee will not withstand helper work anymore.

Byron


----------



## icarusflies (Oct 1, 2014)

thank you guys


----------



## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

Mesonoxian, I can assure you that your your dog will never get bored with Sch training. It will take a full two to three years to get to Sch I. Another year, maybe more to get to Sch II and. Sch III. This is if you train several days a week. As I said it a way of life if you are to be successful. There are so many pieces to this dog sport, not just repetition. Once you get the pieces done you can begin training for a trial. Believe me going to a trial is a whole new game. If you havent gone to a new field your dog better be ready for anything yet be able to follow your direction. Many people think this is an easy sport.. Haha not every dog can do it and not every owner/handler can do it. I can't tell you how many times someone has practiced only right turns for Sch I track only to have the judge order left turns. Never practiced in pouring rain or blistering heat, guaranteed you will encounter unusual conditions at a trial. The judge isn't going to allow the helper to deviate from protection standards so your dog needs to be "real " not just easy going play barks. Trials are full of "my dog never did that before" handle sobs.

Do your home work to get good and capable dog. Really look at the breeding carefully. This sport was designed to test GSD so I surely would get a GSD for my first attempt. Just because you got the best you could find doesn't guarantee success. I've seen it both ways good dog poor handler ...fail, not the best dog but good handler ..successful. Not all dogs nor any dog can do this work. It's a test to sort out the best dogs, this it does.

My last GSD lived to train. I would come home from work and wave at him and say " hey, you want to go work? " and he would just explode in his kennel or the back yard. I used to get the neighbors to gather tightly around the back of my station wagon with the tail gate open. Then I would open the yard gate and tell the dog to get in his crate. He would just barge right through everyone and jump in his crate in the wagon. Not bark not slow down not even acknowledge the people. He would work until I said lets go home. Sometimes he would be so tired he could hardly jump in to his crate but he still wanted more.

Byron


----------



## Mesonoxian (Oct 16, 2014)

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and experiences, Byron!

A GSD is definitely my plan for my hopeful IPO dog, I even have a number of breeders in mind. (The handler side of things however... may be a hopeless case!)


----------



## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

Haha good luck. Just pay attention to your trainers. Do look at the dam and sire bloodlines. Lots of Sch/IPO advanced titles at least show some working lines. Many of the Sch people know the lines. There are show lines too and these can produce iffy dogs. The protection side brings out the real strength of the dog. Ironically also the stability as the dog becomes supremely confident and is able to switch modes easily. A sharp or fearfull dog won't make it.

Byron


----------



## Mesonoxian (Oct 16, 2014)

Bentwings said:


> Haha good luck. Just pay attention to your trainers. Do look at the dam and sire bloodlines. Lots of Sch/IPO advanced titles at least show some working lines. Many of the Sch people know the lines. There are show lines too and these can produce iffy dogs. The protection side brings out the real strength of the dog. Ironically also the stability as the dog becomes supremely confident and is able to switch modes easily. A sharp or fearfull dog won't make it.
> 
> Byron


Heh, thanks! :biggrin1:

A dog who shows stability and solid nerve is huge for me, even if it "only" turned out to be an active pet. While I love the rich color of WGSLs, overall (from what I've been able to see and interact with) I'm very partial to West German working line dogs. Beauty _and_ ability! (in my opinion)


----------



## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

I'm with you there! Working lines look nice and are functional.
My last GSD was old school working lines. Big robust Black and Tan with just a touch of red. 96 pounds working weight 28+ inches tall. You didn't have to bend over to praise him. Great with the family although I didn't let the kids play alone with him. I really miss him.


----------

