# High Protein Levels



## Masterjedi688 (Apr 27, 2009)

I have seen many dog food labels that have high levels of protein in them like 28 %. Are high Levels of Protein bad for dogs? What is the proper level of protein a dog food should have?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

28% isn't a high protein level, it is a normal one. A high protein level is anywhere from the high 30%s to high 40%s (never seen a dog food in the 50%s or higher so I don't think that exists but could be wrong). People have differing opinions on what a high protein level is, so you may get many different answers on that one, but that range is my opinion. 

And yes it can cause unwanted stress on the kidneys if they don't drink enough water and/or enough exercise to work off that excess protein. Average house pets don't get enough exercise to need that much protein, and cept for a dog with kidney problems most dogs don't drink enough water to dilute it.


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## Masterjedi688 (Apr 27, 2009)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> 28% isn't a high protein level, it is a normal one. A high protein level is anywhere from the high 30%s to high 40%s (never seen a dog food in the 50%s or higher so I don't think that exists but could be wrong). People have differing opinions on what a high protein level is, so you may get many different answers on that one, but that range is my opinion.
> 
> And yes it can cause unwanted stress on the kidneys if they don't drink enough water and/or enough exercise to work off that excess protein. Average house pets don't get enough exercise to need that much protein, and cept for a dog with kidney problems most dogs don't drink enough water to dilute it.


Thanks Chaos.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I agree with Chaos. In my opinion around 25-32ish percent is fine for your average dog. Also, some dogs have loose stools on the higher end of that, but I haven't had a problem with it myself.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I never knew high protein could cause loose stools. I currently feed Canidae grain free, which is 40% protein, and Obi's been having loose stools. I could never understand why. Maybe I'll try a non-grain free type next time, as they seem to be lower in protein, and see if he improves.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Here is an article by IAMS about how dogs do better with 32% chicken meal protein than 16% chicken or even 32% chicken and corn gluten.
http://www.iams.com/dog-article/importance_of_animal-based_proteins_in_dog_foods.aspx

Here is Orijen's White Paper, might give you some insight on why protein is so good for dogs.
http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf

Not sure why a high protein food is more dangerous than a low protein food if insufficient water is taken in. Water is essential no matter what food or even if food isn't eaten.

Sassy seemed to do fine on 22% kibble, good muscle mass and strength. When she got sick she did better on 28-30% protein as her body was so inefficient at conserving nutrients. Max was weak on 22% kibble. When he got 50% protein by dry weight raw his strength improved tremendously and he gained 5 pounds of muscle. He did not gain muscle when he gained weight on my home cooking, it was the raw that did it.

EVO was my only fail at kibble transitioning. The amount Max needed was ridiculously small and he was overfed through 2 bags. He pooped out the excess. When I overfed home cooking he got fat.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

IMO the reason that the protein levels can effect dogs in such a way is because a LOT of companies fudge the protein levels by having a lot of veggie proteins in their foods...which is NOT good for dogs since they are carnivores and thus can NOT digest veggies!:wink:

But the link thats that Kathyy provided are GREAT!! I LOVE "White Paper"!! I think it is AWESOME that a pet food company would have put out such wonderful article....which in its self states that there is no reason to buy their product!!


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

abi88 said:


> But the link thats that Kathyy provided are GREAT!! I LOVE "White Paper"!! I think it is AWESOME that a pet food company would have put out such wonderful article....which in its self states that there is no reason to buy their product!!


Not really. It's put out by Orijen which is one of the higher protein foods on the market with one of the highest percentage of meat in their product when it comes to kibbles. They're reinforcing that among the kibbles theirs is the best.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

kafkabeetle said:


> Not really. It's put out by Orijen which is one of the higher protein foods on the market with one of the highest percentage of meat in their product when it comes to kibbles. They're reinforcing that among the kibbles theirs is the best.


Yes i know who it is put out by, and if you read the whole thing it tells you specifically that a RAW diet is the best for our pet carnivores....


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

abi88 said:


> having a lot of veggie proteins in their foods...which is NOT good for dogs since they are carnivores


This is a myth. Those proteins are utilized just fine.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

When I had to balance rations for cattle and horses there were a LOT of things to consider when analyzing protein and energy in feeding. Moisture content, TDN (total digestable nutrients) Crude Protien, Digestable protein and so forth. If you have 32% protien but only 10% digestable Protien.. well.. all you have is 10%... and a LOT more protien is digestable than we think it is (remember.. dogs are scavengers). 

I know we all do our best to feed our dogs the best food we can afford.. and some feed RAW and so forth.. but I read somewhere (another nebulous source because I do not catalog such things) that over all in the population of pets the food does not make a huge difference in vet bills or in over all animal health. Now this does not mean I will give you the high five for going out and buying some Ol' Roy at Wally World and it does not mean I am going to stop feeding Canidae and Evo... 

And it does not mean there are not dogs out there who do react negatively to cheap dog food.. and it does not mean there are not plenty of dogs with food allergies. It means what it says.. if you put pets on a bell curve, for the majority food is not as important as we make it. 

I will probably get flamed for this... but I found that interesting. 

Recently I switched my one dog to "cheapr tho good" Canidae. Other dog got fussy tho this may not be the food.. and is back on Evo... 
..but if the cost of premium dog food means keeping your dog or not, you can feed stuff like "Purina Dog Chow" and go on. 

Fact is, before the advent of Premium dog Food a lot of top breeders and competitors fed Purina Dog Chow and the dogs did just fine. I remember when Eukanuba and Iams came out and they were the top of the line products.. and a lot of breeders and show people feed those to this day.

BTW Mr. V, How you doing these days? How are the studies going? Miss seeing your comments on here.. I always learn something from your posts!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Elana55, I read somewhere on the web, a link from that nice often referred to lab site that has so many links on it that a vet would ask what a dog was fed and sometimes dogs fed Ol' Roy were in good health and sometimes they weren't. Something clicked and he started asking 'and what else'. The healthy Ol' Roy fed dogs were given additional fresh foods and the unhealthy ones were not. Sure it is better than starvation but not much else.

While an amino acid molecule might be the same from corn or a cow the additional organics could be an issue. That IAMS study on corn gluten +- chicken meal is to that point, isn't it? Too bad it is so incomplete. Found the one done on cats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc1250243/

My dogs were okay with lower protein foods but they do better with more protein as I wrote earlier. I am quite sure Max would go down a couple years sooner with less protein than he gets now. Sassy also got stronger when she got more quality animal based protein and that was a dog with kidney disease and degenerative myelopathy.

When kibbles were introduced they were generally topped with scraps, eggs and the like. It took a long time for pet food manufacturers to get consumers to trust in the product and stop adding extras. Many of the people feeding the old standards probably still give a lot of toppers and supplements to bring the dogs into better condition. Cheaper to just feed the food that works than add in supplements. I know, Sassy's supplements cost more than her food did. Max gets his minerals and vitamins and joint supplement in his raw food, I had to add them to Sassy's diet.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

Mr. V said:


> This is a myth. Those proteins are utilized just fine.


Sorry, no its not.

Dogs are carnivores, plain and simple.

The myth is that dogs are omnivores, that is false and mostly spread by dog food companies who want us to think that, thus buying their "foods". It is also aided in the fact that we have humanized our loveable carnivore companions(both dogs and cats) and thus have even their food needs and nutritional information humanized.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

abi88 said:


> Sorry, no its not.
> 
> Dogs are carnivores, plain and simple.
> 
> The myth is that dogs are omnivores, that is false and mostly spread by dog food companies who want us to think that, thus buying their "foods". It is also aided in the fact that we have humanized our loveable carnivore companions(both dogs and cats) and thus have even their food needs and nutritional information humanized.


 
Ok, here's some abstracts to various scientific journals:

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Evaluation of maize gluten meal as a protein source in canine foods

By Yamka, Ryan M.; Kitts, Susanna E.; True, Alma D.; Harmon, David L.
From Animal Feed Science and Technology (2004), 116(3-4), 239-248

Ten mature female dogs (19.0 ± 0.4 kg) were used in a replicated 5 × 5 Latin Square expt. to det. the feeding value of corn gluten meal (MGM) in a complete food fed to dogs. All foods contained 100 g poultry meal/kg and graded levels of MGM (4-320 g/kg dry matter) resulting in foods that were 100, 150, 200, 250 and 300 g/kg crude protein (CP). Daily dry matter (DM) intake averaged 307 ± 7 g/d. An increase in MGM resulted in an increase in fecal moisture from 516 to 575 g/kg (linear; P < 0.001) and faecal DM output increased from 24.2 to 32.9 g/d (linear; P < 0.001). The coeff. for apparent ileal digestibility (CIAD) of DM decreased from 0.89 to 0.83 (linear; P < 0.001) and the coeff. for apparent total tract digestibility (CTTAD) of DM decreased from 0.92 to 0.89 (linear; P < 0.001) as MGM increased. The coeff. for apparent large intestinal digestibility (CLIAD; 0.29) was not affected by treatment. Faecal excretion of CP increased from 5.6 to 8.1 g/d (linear; P < 0.001) as MGM increased. Crude protein CIAD increased from 0.73 to 0.82 (linear; P < 0.002) with increasing MGM whereas, CP CLIAD was not affected by treatment (0.40). Crude protein CTTAD increased from 0.84 to 0.91 (linear; P < 0.001) as MGM increased. Methionine had the highest overall CIAD ranging from 0.92 to 0.93 and threonine had the lowest CIAD ranging from 0.65 to 0.75. *These data indicate that MGM is a highly digestible protein source for canine foods with inclusions of 84 to 322 g/kg.*

Influence of dietary protein content and source on fecal quality, electrolyte concentrations, and osmolarity, and digestibility in dogs differing in body size

By Nery, J.; Biourge, V.; Tournier, C.; Leray, V.; Martin, L.; Dumon, H.; Nguyen, P.
From Journal of Animal Science (Champaign, IL, United States) (2010), 88(1), 159-169

When fed the same diet, large-breed dogs tend to produce feces of poorer quality compared with small-breed dogs. Moreover, German shepherds, although having a BW similar to Giant Schnauzers, are particularly prone to digestive intolerance, producing feces of poor consistency and increased moisture. Digestive tolerance reflects the reaction of the animal to the diet, and it can be assessed by detg. fecal quality (consistency, moisture, vol., odor, and color). This study was conducted to assess the effect of protein source and content on fecal quality, and to det. whether greater digestibility and lesser fecal osmolarity and electrolyte concns. are assocd. with improved fecal quality in dogs differing in body size and digestive tolerance. Twenty-seven healthy female dogs were divided into 4 groups according to BW and digestive tolerance: small, medium, large tolerant, and large sensitive. Five diets, varying in protein source (wheat gluten, poultry meal, and a 50:50 mixt. of both sources) and concn. (22, 29, and 39% CP on a DM basis for low, medium, and high, resp.) were tested. The present study was divided in 2 phases: 2 diets were studied in a crossover design in phase I, and 3 diets were studied in a Latin square design in phase II. Diets were fed for 14 d, followed by a 12-d transition period. Fecal score (1 = dry and hard feces, to 5 = liq. diarrhea), moisture, electrolytes (Na and K), and osmolarity, and digestibility of DM, energy, fat, CP, and ash were detd. Fecal score and moisture (P < 0.001) were less and *overall digestibility (P < 0.001 for DM, CP, fat, ash, and energy) was greater for wheat gluten than for poultry meal diet*s. Large dogs had the greatest fecal score and moisture (P < 0.001), together with the greatest overall digestibility (P < 0.001 for DM, P = 0.054 for CP, P = 0.005 for ash, and P = 0.003 for energy). Osmolarity was less for wheat gluten-based diets (P < 0.001), and was not affected by dog size. Fecal electrolyte concn. varied mainly with dog group (P = 0.005 for Na, and P < 0.001 for K), being greater in large sensitive dogs compared with small dogs. *Wheat gluten was proved to be a suitable protein source for modulating fecal quality in dogs, particularly in sensitive breeds*. Poorer fecal quality in large sensitive dogs can be related to greater digestibility and greater fecal electrolyte concns., but not to fecal osmolarity. 



----

Got anything other than, "no it's not" ?


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Elana, I remember when those brands were top of the line and the idea of buying them meant you were splurging on dog food.

The protein thing is tricky for me because I have been instructed to keep both dogs at or below 25% in their food *for Gracie it is because of her urinary issues and for Gizmo it is because he is nearly 11 years old), and I am a fan of grain free, so findng foods that meet my needs are next to impossible.

Dogs can process proteins that are not animal based. For what it is worth, companies make vegetarian dog foods (not that they are of super high quality, but I know they exist). 

In reference to the comment about Raw being what is best. That may be true, but there are some (like myself) who are not comfortable with feeding raw, and, to be honest, I am starting to feel that for some, if you don't feed raw, you are doing your pet a disservice.

My dogs are on Taste of the Wild now. I am looking for a new food because they have been on it for a while and I would like to start a rotation diet. Raw is not on my list of things to try. I have dehydrated raw on my list of things to try, but, if I don't stick with it, I will find a premium dog food that suits my needs. With my protein restrictions, I am limited in what I can feed.

I don't know about protein levels and what is safe/unsafe, etc. I know they vary based on foods, and some are super high and some are super low. All I can do is do what is best for my dogs...


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

Mr. V said:


> Got anything other than, "no it's not" ?


Here is what I keep book marked for people who have been sucked in to the lies that the dog food companies have spread via their own marketing and via the vets who they help pet thru vet school and who they brain wash in their classes that they put on!

http://www.thewholedog.org/NHMVTheOm...ivoreQuest.pdf

http://www.thewholedog.org/artcarnivores.html

http://rawfed.com/myths

http://www.mountaindogfood.com/Healt...ion/slides.html



Im not going to copy and paste all of the GREAT info found on those links along with the other thinks that I have found over the years, but anyone interested in finding out more about a TRUE carnivore diet for our pet carnivores can pm me, or any of the other TRUE RAW feeders on here!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

abi88 said:


> Im not going to copy and paste all of the GREAT info found on those links along with the other thinks that I have found over the years, but anyone interested in finding out more about a TRUE carnivore diet for our pet carnivores can pm me, or any of the other TRUE RAW feeders on here!


Just a question--what about those who can't feed raw?

Two of your links didn't work for me. One of them was from a raw food website, so I find that in the same line as commercial food companies convincing us that their foods are the right way to go.

I still feel the general tone is that if we don't feed raw, we shouldn't have a dog or that we are doing wrong by them by making them eat dry food.

But that is not the arguement at hand...what about protein levels?


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

theyogachick said:


> Elana, I remember when those brands were top of the line and the idea of buying them meant you were splurging on dog food.
> 
> The protein thing is tricky for me because I have been instructed to keep both dogs at or below 25% in their food *for Gracie it is because of her urinary issues and for Gizmo it is because he is nearly 11 years old), and I am a fan of grain free, so findng foods that meet my needs are next to impossible.
> 
> ...


This is, IMO, partially the truth. And it may be rude to some, but we take these pet carnivores into our care and we SHOULD be feeding them what they can THRIVE on. That being said, if there is a good reason as to why you cant feed the best and healthiest food for them then you should, and it sounds like YOU are, do what you can to provide them with the next best thing, a good processed food for them while adjusting it to meet each dog's need!

And remember ANYTHING closer to their natural way of eating and away from the VERY unnatural kibble is better for them! I know lots of people who dogs are fed dehydrated food...their dogs, in the short and long run, are MUCH better off then those on kibble!


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

abi88 said:


> http://www.thewholedog.org/NHMVTheOm...ivoreQuest.pdf
> http://www.thewholedog.org/artcarnivores.html
> http://rawfed.com/myths
> http://www.mountaindogfood.com/Healt...ion/slides.html


No surprise here - opinion pieces from websites whose main objective is to promote raw food. And of course a link to a website that is actually selling raw dog food - no bias there I'm sure. I provided you with abstracts from real medical journals....

- for the record, I'm not knocking raw here at all. I think it's just fine if the animal tolerates it and the diet is actually a balanced diet that meets the needs of the animal.



Elana55 said:


> BTW Mr. V, How you doing these days? How are the studies going? Miss seeing your comments on here.. I always learn something from your posts!


forgive me, didn't see this. I'm doing well and school is going great now. After a long couple months I am finally done with all of my equine medicine and surgery rotations. I look forward to not working on a horse again in my life. I loved the surgery and the horses, especially the warmbloods (they just seem really chill about life). But, the people surrounding them weren't really my flavor. Thank you for missing my posts as I will def. take that as a compliment. I guess today you can learn how I've been brainwashed in school by pet food companies who have no contact with me and whose papers/materials I don't have in my possession. Heck if it's anyone is the drug companies trying to schmooz me.



abi88 said:


> And remember A*NYTHING closer to their natural way of eating* and away from the VERY unnatural kibble is better for them!


I just had a business idea. Do you think there would be a market for having a fenced in type field that I could release live deer and rabbits on so that the dog owners could let them hunt once or twice a day? Then to make it absolutely natural we could put the dogs in a freezer for a couple months to simulate a harsh winter with no food. I think we're on to something. Send me your number so we can talk about this new business of ours.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

I just read a study comparing chicken meal to corn gluten meal. Based on certain criterion, they concluded that both meals provide the same amount of protein but the corn gluten meal was less digestible (thus less available to the animal) and it increased mineral rewuirements. I don't know how i could post the link on my phone though. I have been doing research for my dog who has elevated ALT and may or may not have microvascular dysplasia. I was feeding Natures Variety frozen raw but after I found that her ALT was elevated, my vet suggested taking her off raw and then test her ALT again. Im feeding her Canine Life muffins which are made by two local women (alternatively. i could buy the premix and add meat, eggs, veggies & fruit myself) and her ALT didbgo down considerably but it is still slightly elevated. Basically, my vet said it may be bacteria related. So now I'm messed up in my thinking because Ibonce believed raw was the ultimate diet. Also, my vet said that our dogs are not in the wild and do not need to reproduce as much and as fast as wild dogs so they don't need the high levels of protein. 

I also briefly read the study that Purina did over a 14 year period on labrador retrievers. Basically, one group of labs were fed purina dog chow on a free-fed basis and another group was fed the same amount of calories but on a restricted meal basis. The study found that the labs fed on a restricted meal basis lived an average of two years longer than those in the free-fed group. The meal-fed labs were also slimmer. Then purina comes out with the dog chow commercial claiming that their study found that dogs fed dog chow lived two years longer....longer than what? They failed to mention that the dogs lived two years longer than dogs fed dog chow. I just foundit interesting that they would do this long term study and then present the results in such a skewed manner. They are currently working on a 14 year study on cats. There will always be those dogs who eat crap like beneful bit still live a long healthy life juwt like those people who can eat whatever they want and never gain weight (curse on my brothers!). Genetics plays a h7ge role in a dog's life span and health. I believe, however, that since we have brought dogs and cats into our homes we are obligated to feed them as best we can. 

Protein essentially dehydrates the body and so the more protein, the more water needed. When protein is digested, waste products are created and must be filtered out by the kidneys. I think 40% is probably the maximum a dog should have. This also depends on if yiur dog is involved in sports or just a couch potato. 

Sorry for the tangents but those are my thoughts.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Nice to see Mr V posting again!
I've fed higher protein foods, I think 42% was the highest; dog did fine. I did try Evo reduced fat once, for a few weeks, til I realized the protein was 52% and that made me a little uncomfortable


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Mr. V said:


> No surprise here - opinion pieces from websites whose main objective is to promote raw food. And of course a link to a website that is actually selling raw dog food - no bias there I'm sure. I provided you with abstracts from real medical journals....


I always love it when someone argues opinion against real science. Most entertaining. Chemistry is.. well.. Chemistry.... (scary isn't it?)



> - for the record, I'm not knocking raw here at all. I think it's just fine if the animal tolerates it and the diet is actually a balanced diet that meets the needs of the animal.


What about the toxoplasmosis link? Or did I recall reading that link has since turned out to be false? 



> forgive me, didn't see this. I'm doing well and school is going great now. After a long couple months I am finally done with all of my equine medicine and surgery rotations. I look forward to not working on a horse again in my life. I loved the surgery and the horses, especially the warmbloods (they just seem really chill about life). But, the people surrounding them weren't really my flavor.


This is exactly why I sold my Warm Blood Filly (who was started in FEI Dressage). I love dressage. Love training it. Love doing it. But there was a bit of an issue with 'tude.... 



> Thank you for missing my posts as I will def. take that as a compliment. I guess today you can learn how I've been brainwashed in school by pet food companies who have no contact with me and whose papers/materials I don't have in my possession. Heck if it's anyone is the drug companies trying to schmooz me.


Oh that is not new. LOL. All in good time Mr. V.... they will come out of the wood work. I have gone to my clinic and the sales guys come thru during the day. It is such a busy place I have NO idea how they even have a moment to listen. 

BTW one of my vets (the one who took care of Dante for free, the cat out of the horrible dairy barn fire) is going to spend a few months in India doing a "Vets without Borders" stint. She is very interested in the Public Health part of Veterinary Medicine. I cannot wait to hear from her on how it goes! 



> I just had a business idea. Do you think there would be a market for having a fenced in type field that I could release live deer and rabbits on so that the dog owners could let them hunt once or twice a day? Then to make it absolutely natural we could put the dogs in a freezer for a couple months to simulate a harsh winter with no food. I think we're on to something. Send me your number so we can talk about this new business of ours.


Wow... I think it could REALLY take off... can I be part of it too? ound:

Oh wait.. I just ran it past my dogs and they both think while they are doing this, I need to move to an equitorial rain forst and survive on what I can there... after all, what is 'natural and good' for the dog would also be 'natural and good' for a human, right?


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

I'm not going to bother responding to what was already replied to in the post above mine. 
HOWEVER to anyone who might do so, when I speek of RAW , I mean muscle meet, bone and organs. NOTHING more, no grains, fruits or Veggies!! True RAW(Prey model) is the ONLY RAW that I am referring to, anything else is NOT true RAW.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

abi88 said:


> I'm not going to bother responding to what was already replied to in the post above mine.


Translation: I dont know what to say.

Out of curiosity, why do you say 'RAW' instead of just raw. Is speaking of raw like case-sensitive?


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

This thread was not to debate RAW (which you have clearly said is, apparently, the be all end all of a dog's diet and have implied that everyone should feed it...and only TRUE RAW or they are doing their dog a disservice). This thread was originally intended to discuss protein levels in foods.

But, since you have insisted in taking it here, let me say this:

First, the White paper article (which I am not so sold on because it was released by a pet food company) states 

_In the short digestive systems of dogs and cats, plant proteins are far less digestible than meat proteins. It does not say they cannot digest them. Just that they are less digestible.

It also states:

In its dry form, Biologically Appropriate dog or cat foods feature:
1. RICH IN ANIMAL PROTEIN from meat concentrated formulations (70%+). 
2. HIGH & VARIOUS FRESH MEAT INCLUSIONS from a variety of animalsources.
3. LOW IN CARBOHYDRATES with nohigh-glycemic cereal grains present.
4. ESSENTIAL FATS FROM ANIMALS (meats and fish) – not plants 
5. FRUITS, VEGETABLES & BOTANICALS.

Although plant proteins are listed as incomplete, they never say they are not digestible. Just not as digestible as animal proteins._

I do not care for the attitude that people who aren't feeding your type of raw are not doing right by their dogs. In all honesty, dogs are domestic creatures. If I wanted to get them back to their roots, I would set them free and let them hunt their own food. 

I am glad your dogs are doing well on raw (which, if I read correctly, you have only been doing for three weeks or so), but I have no interest in doing it. That does not make me a bad person. It does not mean that I don't want my dogs to be dogs. It means that I have found what works for them. Yes, you stated as much earlier, but your implications and attitude about the need for a raw diet is rubbing me the wrong way. Maybe you don't mean for it to sound that way, but if I came on here preaching that Dog Chow was the best and I implied that anyone who didn't feed their dogs that were not serving their needs, I think people would be upset.

I agree with Mr. V and Elana--you provided links that were biased at best. Mr. V had medical journals linked. 

I am not saying that a raw diet isn't a good thing for some dogs. I know plenty of people who feed it, but when you start preaching it like a cult leader, that bothers me.

I apologize if this is thread crapping/hijacking, but this is the direction the thread took. I don't even know if the OP got their original question answered.

So, OP: Feed your dog a food that has the protein that he/she can tolerate. As has been stated, sometimes high protein can result in gastric upset, so you have to back off (or feed less). You can start with a moderate protein (the 28% you mentioned is moderate), and see how your dog does. If you want to try to increase the protein level, try something a little higher and see what happens. If you notice loose stool, etc., try backing off on the amount you are feeding and see what happens. It realy becomes trial and error when it comes to finding the food that is best for your dog.


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

Masterjedi688 said:


> I have seen many dog food labels that have high levels of protein in them like 28 %. Are high Levels of Protein bad for dogs? What is the proper level of protein a dog food should have?


I have no scientific facts to give you (though I really appriciate the ones posted in this thread  nice to see). I was really nervous with picking out a dog food and the battle of bad dog food vs the most awesome dogfoods (so some people say)... and some of those awesome dog foods have very high protien levels. After reading tons of stuff (and any dog food company that publishes anything about nutrition is going to be really good at making it sound like theirs is the way to go) I decided to take it all with a grain of salt. My opinion is that the super high protien levels in many kibbles these days-is a marketing fad.

We've settled on wellness. Right now we are feeding small breed puppy formula-it has 28%, I don't think that's too high-but again that's my personal opinion.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

Mr. V said:


> Translation: I dont know what to say.
> 
> Out of curiosity, why do you say 'RAW' instead of just raw. Is speaking of raw like case-sensitive?


Your correct, I dont know what to say...because it is all a bunch of rubbish!

And I was saying RAW to indicate what I was talking about.

I will thus now NOT be replying to any of your rubbish because it is just that!



theyogachick said:


> This thread was not to debate RAW (which you have clearly said is, apparently, the be all end all of a dog's diet and have implied that everyone should feed it...and only TRUE RAW or they are doing their dog a disservice). This thread was originally intended to discuss protein levels in foods.
> 
> But, since you have insisted in taking it here, let me say this:
> 
> ...


I first came on to this thread stating the fact that difference between meat and veggie proteins is not indicated is what matters the VERY most in foods. The other poster is who brought up the argument against that...and that is how it started.

I have been feeding my boys Raw since the first week of May, and my cat for half of that time. However I have been researching it for the past 2 years, and had our dog on the highest quality kibble available, as I couldnt convince husband to change over until Rhett changed his mind with his unstoppable cannon butt with all other foods!:wink:

Im really sorry but tonight Im really not up to touching on all of the other points that you mentioned...but I AM sorry that my frustration with one poster bled over to how I was replying to everyone else!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I get being passionate about something. Trust me. And I am glad your dogs do well on raw (really). I know that tones can't come across in forum posts. I just feel there has been an awful lot of kibble bashing going on.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Rubbish I say! Rubbish! 

So you never responded to my business idea. Can i just assume that you're in? Go ahead and send me your info so we can get started - we're gonna make tons of money.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I will add to this (as to protien in kibble). I fed straight Evo for quite awhile. I had an issue with it.. the stuff caused constipation in my dogs and since that can cause OTHER medical issues I cut the Evo with Pro Plan Shredded chicken and rice. This got things moving in the right direction and I am wondering if the Evo was actually too easy to digest.. too lacking in any pass thru protien (yes.. pass thru protien is important too). It is also a very expensive dog food that is very high in calorie content. While I fed less of it, eventually with two dogs on it, it got out of hand financially. One dog is now on Evo mixed with Pro Plan and the other dog is on Cainidae. Both are doing very well. 

There was an interesting article on Schutzhund USA a few years back (2010 Sieger Issue) on the cost of raw vs. the cost of a very high quality kibble. After they figured the available protien and water content of each food... and brough it all to a dry matter basis, the raw, which started out at $1 a pound and the kibble which started out at $2.25 a pound ended up with the raw diet at $3.25 a pound and the kibble at something like $2.35 a pound. 

IOW;s the protien content is not the ONLY way to judge a food. You have to look past that. A food with very high and digestable protien that has inadequate calories can get your dog very thin (think those protien drink diets that used to be around). 

IMO most kibble achieves a balance and most dogs are OK on it. Some are not. The ones who are not doing well on conventional dog food are typically handled on a case by case basis. 

It seems when it comes to pets, be it dog food or training, we either over or under simplify things.. and then there are those who deny everything and argue based on emotional response and anecdotal (Read:Their Own Dog) experience.


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## blues327 (May 2, 2011)

> I agree with Mr. V and Elana--you provided links that were biased at best. Mr. V had medical journals linked.


I'm wondering if the medical journals weren't a little biased? From what I looked up, Ryan Yamka from the first article used to work for Hill's Pet Nutrtion as a scientist, and the second article Mr. V posted had this stated at the bottom of the study on the Journal of Animal Science website.

"Supported by Royal Canin SA, Aimargues, France."


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

The point was that one site was a raw food site that sold raw food. Of course they are going to say raw is the be all end all. You cannot get an unbiased opinion from a site that sells the thing being debated.

Medical journals should publish things supported by research and science. Not for profit. Yes, the one person may have been from Hill's, but that doesn't mean the article was written to sell it.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

abi88 said:


> I'm not going to bother responding to what was already replied to in the post above mine.
> HOWEVER to anyone who might do so, when I speek of RAW , I mean muscle meet, bone and organs. NOTHING more, no grains, fruits or Veggies!! True RAW(Prey model) is the ONLY RAW that I am referring to, anything else is NOT true RAW.


I'm sitting here, confused, wondering how there can be "real" or "true" raw when speaking of prey model, and apparently what I (and many others feed) is "fake" raw? Raw food is raw food. It doesn't really matter to me whether or not you're feeding a whole carcass or if you grind the RMB's up and add some raw crushed veggies--as long as the food hasn't been cooked, it's still raw IMO. 
I had my GSD on raw for awhile. That was when his problems started--on and off chronic diarrhea for MONTHS at a time. It didn't matter what we tried, he still had problems and lost a ton of weight. I've found that going 100% raw with him is NOT a feasible option, and when people say "you're just feeding the wrong stuff" it kind of gets my hackles up. I know raw doesn't work on this dog. I know raw hasn't worked for some posters here. My papillons do well with raw foods, and the GSD does in limited quantities. I'm glad you've found a feeding program that's worked very well for your dogs and cats. But pimping raw out to people who can't remember the brand of dry food they pick up at wal-mart hasn't proven to be an act with much sense IMO...if I ask "what brand of dry do you feed?" and they tell me it's the purple bag with the picture of the beagle on it, I honestly wonder if they'll take ANY time to research a raw diet and how to properly introduce it and the different protein sources. I personally recommend raw with caution IRL. If someones dedicated to learning, great! If not, I say "This brand is good, why not try that?" and leave it at that. JMO of course.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I have done the same cost analysis between raw and kibble. A high priced low fat and protein kibble like Wellness came out more expensive per calorie than raw. Even high calorie kibbles like Orijen and EVO were quite close in price to the price I can do which is all specialty butcher dog food at the moment. While the ingredients in kibbles are cheaper than fresh there are manufacturing and distribution costs.

My dogs were on such kibbles for years and I was unable to transition them to EVO. It was a choice between EVO and 25% protein at the time, the more moderate 30-35% protein kibbles weren't around at the time. This was a completely human error. I needed to feed less is all. If I took all the water out of Max's raw he would be eating 4 ounces a day. Half a cup if squished down. He would be fine, I wouldn't be able to do it!

After seeing how geriatric Sassy responded brilliantly to 28-30% protein and how senior Max increased his lean muscle mass on ~50% protein by dry weight raw I would be uncomfortable feeding less than 30% protein to a dog. After seeing how jumpy reactive Max responded to a nearly zero carb raw I would prefer to continue on raw with future dogs.

I HATED to switch kibbles with Sassy, she took half a large bag to get used to a new one. I would move to a higher protein one but go by steps rather than spend the big bucks on something that is chancy. I would chose one with mostly meat protein but prefer to avoid all the flowers and herbs some kibbles include for customer appeal. I was able to put Artie on EVO and Before Grain successfully, he wasn't supposed to have fish so TOTW and BB Wilderness were out. I haven't a problem with grain but prefer to avoid flax meal as Sassy just pooped anything with that in it right back out.

All the research on dog nutrition is done to combine factory waste products into a palatable product that adequately nourishes a dog. They are still learning, nutrition is a young science. Think how it was only 30 years ago that the cat taurine issue became known. I am all for using waste products safely and nearly all of Max's raw food is such stuff, trim and organs and bones that would otherwise go to the rendering plant but that is why the studies are done.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Protein levels need to be watched, particularly for young, large breed dogs (can influence Pano, and its severity). My dogs cannot handle protein about 25-26%. I got rocket butt.

Strauss cannot tolerate a full raw diet AT ALL. It makes him TERRIBLY ill!! He can do a raw chicken or turkey leg, and beef ribs (all as a random treat), but he cannot have raw as a meal every day.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Protein levels need to be watched, particularly for young, large breed dogs (can influence Pano, and its severity). My dogs cannot handle protein about 25-26%. I got rocket butt.
> 
> Strauss cannot tolerate a full raw diet AT ALL. It makes him TERRIBLY ill!! He can do a raw chicken or turkey leg, and beef ribs (all as a random treat), but he cannot have raw as a meal every day.


Strauss is in the same situation as Auz. If I could give him all raw, I probably would. However, I'm doing what seems to work best for him and compromising on it by offering raw as a few times a week treat (he likes pigs feet, lol). Tag was raised on a rotational thing...one day we'd have raw. Next we'd have kibble. Next we'd add some homecooked to canned, etc. He's always had an iron gut and (knocking on wood), has had no health issues in his 26 months of life.
I think most people who spend time to post on a dog forum do the best possible job they possibly can when it comes to their dogs


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Mr. V said:


> This is a myth. Those proteins are utilized just fine.


and this is an oversimplification just like most of the rest of this thread.

appropriate protien intake and appropriate types of protiens are going to depend on a slew of factors, including but not limited to

age
breed type(big dog vs teeny dog)
health condition
exercise level
types of exercise
water intake


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Mr. V said:


> Out of curiosity, why do you say 'RAW' instead of just raw. Is speaking of raw like case-sensitive?


I have always wondered that myself. The majority of raw feeders write it as "RAW" or "Raw". On cat forums, dog forums, ferret forums, etc. I've always wanted to ask why but it's never really come up. It confuzzles me.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Maybe RAW instead of raw because it is BARF not barf?


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

I have read so many mixed things about high protein kibbles. I always thought Orijen was the best possible food I could ever feed my dog, based on internet reviews. So I transitioned him from a quality food he wasn't doing well on (bad gas and loose stools) to Orijen. The digestive issues were a little better on Orijen, but still far from perfect. I later switched to Acana, which is still high in protein but lower than Orijen, and again his digestion improved, but not much. I eventually switched to a more moderate protein diet and he is absolutely thriving. I think it really just depends on the dog. Some foods, regardless of quality, just don't sit well with some dogs, so finding the perfect food is often trial and error.

Now a possible concern about high protein kibble, and the main reason I switched to a lower protein food. I have read a lot about high protein diets being bad for the kidneys and liver, and I have read just as many articles saying that those are all myths. It's really hard to figure out what is really true. My dog tested for high liver enzymes (ALT) while on Orijen, which is the main reason I switched to Acana. I retested while on Acana and they were still high. He has been on his new moderate protein food for several months now, and he will have his liver enzymes tested this afternoon; I will be really interested to see if the switch has an effect on his ALT. I suspect there may be a correlation because I have spoken to a few other people who have had the exact same experience, and ALT always went down to normal levels once the dogs were taken off the high protein diet. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that kibble is so dry...very high protein in a really dry form could conceivably make the liver work harder to process the food, especially if the dog doesn't drink enough water. Even though he's not on high protein anymore, I've begun occasionally mixing canned food into my dog's food for the added moisture. I'll come back and post an update when I hear the results of his blood test.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kathyy said:


> Maybe RAW instead of raw because it is BARF not barf?


Yeah, but B.A.R.F. stands for something. Capitalizing acronyms is the proper thing to do. R.A.W. doesn't stand for anything. It's just plain raw food and shouldn't be capitalized.


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## Jenn~n~Luke (Aug 20, 2010)

vnairp11 said:


> Protien levels of 28% are not very high or even 32% it all depends on the age of your dog puppy's should be good with 32% some foods such as the innova has 42% which makes them grow too fast and may cause bone problems as an adults.


It is not protein content that causes the bones to grow faster, as we used to believe. It is actually the calcium/phosperous ratio that we are concerned with. Protein builds muscle..calcium causes the bones to grow faster and the bone plates to close before they are completely finished growing..(something like that lol)
That being said, IF you are a feeding a grain inclusive food where the majority of protein comes from NON meat sources, then yes, you want to keep the levels lower. Dogs digest the protein from grains and other sources differenty than meat. It's a bit confusing I know.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> But pimping raw out to people who can't remember the brand of dry food they pick up at wal-mart hasn't proven to be an act with much sense IMO...if I ask "what brand of dry do you feed?" and they tell me it's the purple bag with the picture of the beagle on it, I honestly wonder if they'll take ANY time to research a raw diet and how to properly introduce it and the different protein sources. *I personally recommend raw with caution IRL. If someones dedicated to learning, great! If not, I say "This brand is good, why not try that?"* and leave it at that. JMO of course.


I agree with you 100%. Raw is not for everyone, and if not done properly, it can cause more problems than help. I've watched people in GD forums who really weren't all that interested in going raw, but were guilt tripped into it, start feeding their danes raw but not truly understanding or researching how to do it properly, and it resulted in disaster for the dogs. I'd love to feed raw, but right now it's not an option for me, and I definitely would need to learn a LOT more about it before considering it. Until then I use the best I can possibly get irregardless of the fact the food makes me sob when I pay for it lol.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Willowy, exactly. Some clever person needs to come up with a nice acronym.


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> I have read so many mixed things about high protein kibbles. I always thought Orijen was the best possible food I could ever feed my dog, based on internet reviews. So I transitioned him from a quality food he wasn't doing well on (bad gas and loose stools) to Orijen. The digestive issues were a little better on Orijen, but still far from perfect. I later switched to Acana, which is still high in protein but lower than Orijen, and again his digestion improved, but not much. I eventually switched to a more moderate protein diet and he is absolutely thriving. I think it really just depends on the dog. Some foods, regardless of quality, just don't sit well with some dogs, so finding the perfect food is often trial and error.
> 
> Now a possible concern about high protein kibble, and the main reason I switched to a lower protein food. I have read a lot about high protein diets being bad for the kidneys and liver, and I have read just as many articles saying that those are all myths. It's really hard to figure out what is really true. My dog tested for high liver enzymes (ALT) while on Orijen, which is the main reason I switched to Acana. I retested while on Acana and they were still high. He has been on his new moderate protein food for several months now, and he will have his liver enzymes tested this afternoon; I will be really interested to see if the switch has an effect on his ALT. I suspect there may be a correlation because I have spoken to a few other people who have had the exact same experience, and ALT always went down to normal levels once the dogs were taken off the high protein diet. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that kibble is so dry...very high protein in a really dry form could conceivably make the liver work harder to process the food, especially if the dog doesn't drink enough water. Even though he's not on high protein anymore, I've begun occasionally mixing canned food into my dog's food for the added moisture. I'll come back and post an update when I hear the results of his blood test.


I just wanted to post an update to my earlier comment. The vet called me today and informed me that Zephyr's ALT levels have gone down significantly, and are now in the normal range. It is such a relief! I know that, just because I have seen a correlation between high protein and elevated ALT in my dog, and have heard a few similar anecdotes, it does not necessarily mean that the high protein caused the rise in ALT. But I think it is almost too much of a coincidence to believe that there is not some sort of connection, at least for some dogs (others, I know, have perfectly fine bloodwork while on high protein foods). So I would be cautious with very high protein foods.


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

Hi all - good thread. I'm trying to choose an appropriate food for my 14 week old lab mix puppy. We're expecting her adult size to be on the medium-large size - between 40-50 lbs.

Currently feeding Blue Buffalo's new grain-free Wilderness for Puppy.... 

Do you all think 36% protein is too much for a puppy? 
16% fat, and 1.3% calcium, 0.9% phosphorous...

Does this sound like a good food? The ingredients are all high quality, as found in most of the highest quality kibbles like Orijen, Wellness, Innova, etc. The analysis seems comparable to Orijen's LBP (from their website).


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Mr. V said:


> I just had a business idea. Do you think there would be a market for having a fenced in type field that I could release live deer and rabbits on so that the dog owners could let them hunt once or twice a day? Then to make it absolutely natural we could put the dogs in a freezer for a couple months to simulate a harsh winter with no food. I think we're on to something. Send me your number so we can talk about this new business of ours.


Absolutely perfect!


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## Jenn~n~Luke (Aug 20, 2010)

OliveSheprador said:


> Hi all - good thread. I'm trying to choose an appropriate food for my 14 week old lab mix puppy. We're expecting her adult size to be on the medium-large size - between 40-50 lbs.
> 
> Currently feeding Blue Buffalo's new grain-free Wilderness for Puppy....
> 
> ...


I answered in the last thread too but in short, yes, BB is just fine for your pup. It's a great quality food and the calcium is in the right level. Don't worry about the protein becuase it's a grain free food.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Kathyy said:


> Willowy, exactly. Some clever person needs to come up with a nice acronym.


RAW: Real Appropriate Way

lol
It tends to bother me too when "raw" is capitalized


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