# need IMMEDIATE help with my biting dog..please help, very urgent



## soccerash21 (Mar 27, 2011)

i have had my dog for about 8 years now, we adopted him from a shelter when he was 1. he has had some biting issues, though they have recently started to get worse. we only took him to puppy training class at petsmart, and it didn't do much. other than that, he hasn't had much training, which i assume is where this is coming from. when he is sleeping, you can not go near his pillow. he has bit everyone in my house at least ten times, some being serious requiring stitches. although my parent's have pretty much just blown it off, a recent incident has set them over the edge. my dog was sleeping on his pillow, and i guess my mom went to grab something that was near him. he woke up, and bit her finger. my mom thought it was fine, but within a few days realized it wasn't. she went to the dr who sent her to a hospital where she ended up having surgery because it had gotten super infected. my mom spent 5 days in the hospital, and came home to an in home IV treatment. my mom spent the entire time in the hospital worrying about my dog and what we are going to do. everyone is telling us to put him down because of the number of times he has done this, and because of the severity of this one. but i can't just jump to that conclusion without seeing what our other options are first. i am well aware of how my dog is when he sleeps, so i leave him be. however, my parent's seem to "forget" how he gets, causing these terrible situations. do you think this can be fixed and get out of him since he is already 8? idk if that's too old to try to change things like this? he also has a very bad food aggression problem, but we were told that is probably caused by trying to force his way through his brothers and sisters when he was younger to food from their mother. i guess i am just asking for advice, and whether a normal dog trainer should be able to help with this, or if we are just left with only one option?  the thing that i am worried about is that even if we get a trainer, it's not guaranteed to work, and we can't risk this happening again, especially to someone outside of my family. my dog is perfect for 99% of the time..it's just that small 1% where he has issues. :/


----------



## Bird-Dog (Dec 24, 2008)

I'll let a more experienced dog handler chime in on the aggression but you need to step back and look at this situation realistically. A dog with a "very bad food aggression problem" and at least 30 bites on humans (assuming you're an only child) is NOT perfect 99% of the time. This dog has SEVERE behavioral issues, not a small 1% of issues.

You say the latest bite sent your parents over the edge, did they give an ultimatum regarding the dog? If they are expecting the dog to be reformed in a week or they put him down I'm sorry, but even if this problem can be fixed it's not going to be quick or easy.


----------



## soccerash21 (Mar 27, 2011)

no, they did not give an ultimatum, but we are just trying to figure out what our options are before we do what everyone is telling us that we need to do. this whole thing is our fault. we didn't do puppy training, and i know that is why he doesn't listen and acts completely dominant over us. i am just trying to find out if we have other options or if he can be fixed by a professional because we obviously don't want to put him down because whatever's going on with him isn't his fault


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Honestly, as far as biting when being disurbed while sleeping goes.. I think your best bet is to bring in a behavorist to work with the dog unless someone can give you advice on what to do with that on your own. 

Now for the food aggresion, you can do something which a lot of people on here refer to as NILIF(Nothin In Life Is Free)..I think, I might be wrong on exactly what it's called... but basically what your going to want to do is pretty much make your dog behave for his food. You should make the dog sit before putting his food bowl down, even start off by having the dog sit and eat out of your hand instead of a bowl... esc. There's a lot more to it but I think there's a thread stuck around here about it and you could even searh NILIF and probably find a million threads about it.


----------



## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

You need a behaviourist to work with you on this in your home. 

Where do you live? If you are in southern Ontario I can provide you with a contact. If not then maybe someone else will know a good behaviourist in your area.


----------



## RomeoSnow (Dec 23, 2010)

Question, is this dog walked every day?

Find a dog trainer or behaviourist. Might be costly. But if you want to learn to live in peace with this dog..


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

this dog is a serious resource guarder. Because it was never adressed, it is IMO, too late. This dog has bitten and those bites have been successful. In Jean Donaldson's book, MINE! - A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGS, there is a section where she indicates that the dog may NEVER be reliable and, in fact, PTS'ing the dog is one of the options. 

Because this dog has bitten so many times.. and now this issue has occurred where someone was hospitalized (probably due to tartar etc. on the dog's teeth), I do not think there is an option. This should not have been ignored and should have been dealt with early on, but it was not. 

I really cannot imagine any options OTHER than PTS. You cannot rehome this dog with this issue and you really cannot keep this dog with this issue. 

You asked for an opinion. That is mine. Quit wasting resources and PTS this dog. If another dog is gotten at some point in the future, everyone needs to be committed to training the dog and doing all that you can do to PREVENT things such as resource guarding.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

First off a full assessment by a QUALIFIED behaviourist, A veterinary behaviourist is your best option. Not cheap, because he/she will want bloodwork etc to be done on the dog because the issue has been escalating.
Secondly, yes, doing behaviour modification on a resource guarder who does full on bites is a very difficult thing, but not impossible in some cases. It may very well be that you end up going to Elana's route but I think arming yourself with a good assessment first is the fairest way to deal with your immediate situation. 

Yes, people should work on fixing RG when it first occurs, but people tend to think that the dog will grow out of it...but sadly, this is wrong. They grow INTO this behaviour. It's very unfortunate that you and your family's lack of work with the dog when you first got her is now likely to cost her her life. 

Your parents need to know two things: You MUST leave the dog alone when she's sleeping. There is truth behind the adage "let sleeping dogs lie". And TWO: dog bites that puncture skin need medical care asap....she likely would not have had such a bad infection if she'd had it looked at just after it happened. This mentality of "leave it it will be fine" is what caused the whole damn problem in the first place. People got hurt, dog pays for it with her life....that's just bad all round.

If you let us know where you are, maybe we can help you find a behaviourist to assess the dog, or ask your vet to refer you to a veterinary behaviourist.


----------



## soccerash21 (Mar 27, 2011)

I have called the vets around my area, and they have not been very helpful. I found a few behaviorists and left them messages, but I am not even sure if they can help me address my problem. I'm having a very hard time finding someone that will work with aggression and that isn't going to charge me $500 an hour, because we simply do not have that. I wish we did, because I would spend every last penny on him, but we just don't have it. I am extremely run down because I am slowly starting to feel like there is no one that will be able to help us, and I can't bear to stand the consequence.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Cracker said:


> First off a full assessment by a QUALIFIED behaviourist, A veterinary behaviourist is your best option. Not cheap, because he/she will want bloodwork etc to be done on the dog because the issue has been escalating.
> Secondly, yes, doing behaviour modification on a resource guarder who does full on bites is a very difficult thing, but not impossible in some cases. It may very well be that you end up going to Elana's route but I think arming yourself with a good assessment first is the fairest way to deal with your immediate situation.
> 
> Yes, people should work on fixing RG when it first occurs, but people tend to think that the dog will grow out of it...but sadly, this is wrong. They grow INTO this behaviour. It's very unfortunate that you and your family's lack of work with the dog when you first got her is now likely to cost her her life.
> ...


All fine if you have the funds. The OP does not have the funds. Meanwhile, the dog is a danger. What ifs are serious with this dog around.. like What If a visitor or a child is near the dog and the dog decided to resource guard? No one wants that out come. 

Usually I agree with you Cracker and if the poster had the money.. maybe.. but in all reality, a dog that bites this much, this often, draws blood and shreds to the point of needing stitches... should be muzzled and or crated 100% or the time until the issue is either adressed and resolved _if it can be resolved _or the dog is PTS. 

There are a lot of good dogs out there that get PTS just because they were born and no one wanted them. Here is a dog that is a danger and has severly hurt someone and has hurt people in the past. Sometimes it is wise to cut your losses and replace the dog. I am not one to give up but considering the problem of multiple severe bites, this is one I would let go of and learn from. 

Yes it is heartbreaking but life sometimes is. NO ONE ELSE should be exposed to, or hurt by, this dog.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

soccerash21 said:


> i have had my dog for about 8 years now, we adopted him from a shelter when he was 1. he has had some biting issues, though they have recently started to get worse. we only took him to puppy training class at petsmart, and it didn't do much. other than that, he hasn't had much training, which i assume is where this is coming from. when he is sleeping, you can not go near his pillow. he has bit everyone in my house at least ten times, some being serious requiring stitches. although my parent's have pretty much just blown it off, a recent incident has set them over the edge. my dog was sleeping on his pillow, and i guess my mom went to grab something that was near him. he woke up, and bit her finger. my mom thought it was fine, but within a few days realized it wasn't. she went to the dr who sent her to a hospital where she ended up having surgery because it had gotten super infected. my mom spent 5 days in the hospital, and came home to an in home IV treatment. my mom spent the entire time in the hospital worrying about my dog and what we are going to do. everyone is telling us to put him down because of the number of times he has done this, and because of the severity of this one. but i can't just jump to that conclusion without seeing what our other options are first. i am well aware of how my dog is when he sleeps, so i leave him be. however, my parent's seem to "forget" how he gets, causing these terrible situations. do you think this can be fixed and get out of him since he is already 8? idk if that's too old to try to change things like this? he also has a very bad food aggression problem, but we were told that is probably caused by trying to force his way through his brothers and sisters when he was younger to food from their mother. i guess i am just asking for advice, and whether a normal dog trainer should be able to help with this, or if we are just left with only one option?  the thing that i am worried about is that even if we get a trainer, it's not guaranteed to work, and we can't risk this happening again, especially to someone outside of my family. my dog is perfect for 99% of the time..it's just that small 1% where he has issues. :/


Nothing is guaranteed to work. Ever. But it is unlikely you will be able to handle this yourself - I am guessing you are young, and your parents would listen to a professional, but probably not your advice (parents are like that!) However if being disturbed when sleeping and resource guarding food are the only times (you haven't left out bites that happened in other situations) a skilled trainer or behaviorist should certainly be able to help you with the resource guarding, and be able to tell you if you need to consult the vet for anti-anxiety meds. It would also be a good idea to give this dog an out-of-the-way place to sleep or a crate until behavior improves, and have people remember to wake him up (with their voice) and ask him to move before going into his area. I would also be getting a health check from the vet. Sometimes when aggression escalates there is a physical reason - low thyroid, tick borne disease, pain that makes the dog guardy about being bumped. And eight is getting up there. The vet may be able to recommend someone good for you to work with. Frequently though, it's just a matter of the owners being lax with rules, and ignoring a small problem until it has become a huge problem.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Elana55 said:


> this dog is a serious resource guarder. Because it was never adressed, it is IMO, too late. This dog has bitten and those bites have been successful. In Jean Donaldson's book, MINE! - A PRACTICAL GUIDE TO RESOURCE GUARDING IN DOGS, there is a section where she indicates that the dog may NEVER be reliable and, in fact, PTS'ing the dog is one of the options.
> 
> Because this dog has bitten so many times.. and now this issue has occurred where someone was hospitalized (probably due to tartar etc. on the dog's teeth), I do not think there is an option. This should not have been ignored and should have been dealt with early on, but it was not.
> 
> ...


 
THIS!!!!!! 

I'm sorry this has gotten to this stage, but for the health and safety of EVERYONE in the house it's time for the dog to be lovingly held (witha muzzle if needed) while it passes to the other side.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

As a trainer I possibly could stop dog from biting me, notice I said possibly. This, in all probability would not help the owners at all, as when dog gets back home all training may/could/would be lost. Two viable choices stated above, dog crated and released in home carefully, treated as you would a not quite domesticated animal. Of course this is like playing Russian Roulette. Other choice is much safer for all concerned, PTS the dog as he certainly has done enough damage to OP's family.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

soccerash21 said:


> i am well aware of how my dog is when he sleeps, so i leave him be. however, my parent's seem to "forget" how he gets, causing these terrible situations.


I don't automatically think this dog is a lost cause IF you can afford to work with a good behaviorist, BUT... my concern would be that if your parents "forget" "how he gets" after ALREADY being bitten so many times before this latest incident, I'd wonder how well they would comply with a behavioral modification plan. Everyone has to be 100% on board with the plan 100% of the time for it to be as effective as possible, it is a TON of work and vigilance and everyone has to stick with it without forgetting to -- going into it halfheartedly isn't going to change a thing. It's better to be honest with yourselves up front about that when deciding what to do here. 

ETA: Euthanizing him is certainly an option, one you might not like but living with a dog that's putting people in the hospital isn't an option anyone likes, either. I'm sorry you're in this situation, it's the kind of thing where no matter what you choose you can feel like you were wrong.


----------



## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> THIS!!!!!!
> 
> I'm sorry this has gotten to this stage, but for the health and safety of EVERYONE in the house it's time for the dog to be lovingly held (witha muzzle if needed) while it passes to the other side.


I agree. Because if this continues and the dog wounds up being taken away and put to sleep, it will be a much more traumatic experience for the poor thing.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

soccerash21 said:


> I have called the vets around my area, and they have not been very helpful. I found a few behaviorists and left them messages, but I am not even sure if they can help me address my problem. I'm having a very hard time finding someone that will work with aggression and that isn't going to charge me $500 an hour, because we simply do not have that. I wish we did, because I would spend every last penny on him, but we just don't have it. I am extremely run down because I am slowly starting to feel like there is no one that will be able to help us, and I can't bear to stand the consequence.


When you say "called the vets" does that mean that you just called them for advice? And that they are not your regular vets? Most vets aren't going to give advice over the phone about a dog they've never seen. Especially in a situation which could have liability issues.


----------



## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

Put this dog to sleep, I would have done it way before this point.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

LuckySarah said:


> Put this dog to sleep, I would have done it way before this point.


Resource guarding can be very specific to the situation, and frequently doesn't carry over into aggression in other situations. IF the family is willing to hire a good trainer or behaviorist and IF they are willing to follow the protocol given them, IF they make sure that there is no underlying medical condition causing the grumpiness and IF they get smart enough to wake the dog up and ask him to move instead of waking him from a sound sleep by moving around and over him, there might be resolution. I know that is an awful lot of "ifs", but I do have a bit of an issue with telling someone to kill their dog over the internet without having all the details or being able to observe the dog. I also have a bit of an issue with giving advice to fix such a problem other than "find a good local person to work with" when things have gone this far. If they can not or will not do all the things mentioned above, then there probably isn't a good solution to the situation, and euthansia is a definite option. But I don't think that at this point it can be assumed to be the only (or best) option.


----------



## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

Pawzk9 said:


> Resource guarding can be very specific to the situation, and frequently doesn't carry over into aggression in other situations. IF the family is willing to hire a good trainer or behaviorist and IF they are willing to follow the protocol given them, IF they make sure that there is no underlying medical condition causing the grumpiness and IF they get smart enough to wake the dog up and ask him to move instead of waking him from a sound sleep by moving around and over him, there might be resolution. I know that is an awful lot of "ifs", but I do have a bit of an issue with telling someone to kill their dog over the internet without having all the details or being able to observe the dog. I also have a bit of an issue with giving advice to fix such a problem other than "find a good local person to work with" when things have gone this far. If they can not or will not do all the things mentioned above, then there probably isn't a good solution to the situation, and euthansia is a definite option. But I don't think that at this point it can be assumed to be the only (or best) option.


the dog has bite everyone in the house 10 times.......
I would have put this dog to sleep before it got to this level, doesn't matter what the issues are at this point this dog is going to seriously hurt somebody and people come before dogs.

Sorry you don't agree with my opnion but its my opinion, the OP should not feel guilty about seriously considering it as an option.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

LuckySarah said:


> the dog has bite everyone in the house 10 times.......
> I would have put this dog to sleep before it got to this level, doesn't matter what the issues are at this point this dog is going to seriously hurt somebody and people come before dogs.
> 
> Sorry you don't agree with my opnion but its my opinion, the OP should not feel guilty about seriously considering it as an option.


I don't totally disagree with your opinion. It's one option. And if they aren't willing to work with someone good on the problems (and make sure the dog isn't suffering from a condition that makes him edgy) it's probably the only option that will work. But I do know that frequently the owner doesn't tell the whole story (and often not because they are dishonest, but because they either don't see other details or don't think those details are "important".) Before I tell someone to kill their dog, I'd like all the facts.


----------



## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

If you are not able to/willing to get professional help with the dog I would have him put to sleep...As much as I love my dogs they would have never been able to bite that many times as I would have gotten help or had them put down.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Pawzk9 said:


> Resource guarding can be very specific to the situation, and frequently doesn't carry over into aggression in other situations. IF the family is willing to hire a good trainer or behaviorist and IF they are willing to follow the protocol given them, IF they make sure that there is no underlying medical condition causing the grumpiness and IF they get smart enough to wake the dog up and ask him to move instead of waking him from a sound sleep by moving around and over him, there might be resolution. I know that is an awful lot of "ifs", but I do have a bit of an issue with telling someone to kill their dog over the internet without having all the details or being able to observe the dog. I also have a bit of an issue with giving advice to fix such a problem other than "find a good local person to work with" when things have gone this far. If they can not or will not do all the things mentioned above, then there probably isn't a good solution to the situation, and euthansia is a definite option. But I don't think that at this point it can be assumed to be the only (or best) option.


I hate to say this Pawz, but that is ALOT of "ifs" in this case and the dog has already bitten numerous times. The family has proven it's not willing to take the steps to get the dog BASIC obediance trained much less the kind of constant training and upkeep needed to take care of this aggression issue. I hate reccomending a dog be euthinized, but it's the ONLY way to insure the safety of family members.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Elana and others, I do agree that it is very likely that euthanasia will be the final solution for these people and their dog. I just personally WILL NOT recommend euthing a dog without actually getting the entire story. Not all dogs can have their behaviour altered and yes, euth is an option with a biter. Believe me, I know there are many dogs out there put to sleep without good reason and that there are some that are so dangerous they should be humanely euthed. But I don't know this dog. I don't know the full story and I don't want to assume anything...we have no real information, what exercise, training or health work has been done on the dog etc. This is why I recommended a full workup and a visit with a GOOD behaviourist prior to making the decision, the OP's post about cost and finances came after I had posted. Sorry, I'm good, but mind reading is still not on my on resume. 



IF the owners cannot or will not adhere to a full on plan, including a full workup, then yes, it is safer and more humane for ALL involved to send the dog to the bridge with love.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> I hate to say this Pawz, but that is ALOT of "ifs" in this case and the dog has already bitten numerous times. The family has proven it's not willing to take the steps to get the dog BASIC obediance trained much less the kind of constant training and upkeep needed to take care of this aggression issue. I hate reccomending a dog be euthinized, but it's the ONLY way to insure the safety of family members.


Oh, I absolutely agree that it IS a lot of "ifs". I do not know that the family is unwilling to work with the dog. Many people live in denial, or simply don't notice how large a problem is becoming. Some people don't actually realize that this is a VERY un-natural way to live with dogs. Or that a first step is making sure that there isn't an underlying physical issue (hypothyroid, tick borne disease, pain issues which could be helped with NSAIDs - this is an 8 year old larger breed dog so that is entirely possible and even fairly likely) Some people don't have the first idea where to go for help. 

When one is evaluating a biting dog, it's important to consider the level and the location of the bites. I do find it interesting that this dog has been biting for some time and is still apparently just delivering maybe level 3 single bites to extremeties. And that the severity of the bite was not from the actual wound but from the lack of appropriate medical care. He's apparently not biting repeatedly, savaging, going for a kill bite, etc. Even though he's had a lot of practice biting. This indicates to me that this may not be a vicious dog as much as a dog who wants to be left the heck alone, and has learned that biting is the only thing that works with really clueless humans. Is it acceptable? No. Can it be worked with? Possibly. Will the people work with him? Unknown at this time. If they won't work with it, can't afford a professional, etc. certainly killing him is one option. But if they are fond of the dog, it may not be the only option, or the best option. Then again, it may be. I haven't taken a history on this dog or had a chance to observe him.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> As a trainer I possibly could stop dog from biting me, notice I said possibly. This, in all probability would not help the owners at all, as when dog gets back home all training may/could/would be lost.


A very good argument for working with the owner to train the dog instead of "board and train." Most dog problems are actually people problems. And it is the people who need the step by step protocols and training the most.


----------



## Taryn (Feb 9, 2011)

Considering they didn't bother to train the dog in the first 8 years of his life and ignored this issue until it got to this point(where he has honestly reached dangerous dog territory) I highly doubt anyone would be able to fix this because I honestly doubt they will stick with the training. If they were willing to work with this and fix it I think they would have done this YEARS ago. I know if it was my dog I sure would and if it ever reached this point where the dog has at least 30 bites the dog would have been put to sleep long ago if I couldn't correct it. 

This behavior is so deeply ingrained that it would take serious intense training to undo it and even then I doubt it would be sucessful. The fact that the parents ignore the dogs issues and 'forget' what he is like only makes my opinion on this matter stronger.

Honestly euthanasia is the best choice at this point. Maybe if you had approached this years ago(like when it first started) I would have a different opinion but it has been going on too long and the dog has learned that biting works. This is for everyone's safety.

Taryn


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Taryn said:


> Considering they didn't bother to train the dog in the first 8 years of his life and ignored this issue until it got to this point(where he has honestly reached dangerous dog territory) I highly doubt anyone would be able to fix this because I honestly doubt they will stick with the training. If they were willing to work with this and fix it I think they would have done this YEARS ago. I know if it was my dog I sure would and if it ever reached this point where the dog has at least 30 bites the dog would have been put to sleep long ago if I couldn't correct it.
> 
> This behavior is so deeply ingrained that it would take serious intense training to undo it and even then I doubt it would be sucessful. The fact that the parents ignore the dogs issues and 'forget' what he is like only makes my opinion on this matter stronger.
> 
> ...


Not to say it is so in this case, but teenagers often think their parents are way more inept and stupid than they actually are. Resource guarding in frequently a misunderstanding and how hard is it (really?) to not stumble over a sleeping dog? IF (and that's a pretty big "if") there are no incidents outside of those circumstances, even an idiot could probably manage it. I'm not guessing that these people would stick with the training. But then, again, I'm not assuming that they might not, if they are truly fond of the dog.


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

I'd say "for these owners" "with this dog" euthanasia is the only realistic solution. It makes me sad to think that owners failed their dog, to the point that it cost the animal their life. I'll go one step further and say that based on the history given, with lack of any training/behavior modification when the problems started, they may want to consider not owning a dog again, unless something seriously changes in how they view training, and the amount of time, consistency, money they want to spend on a dog. 

And I hope the OP doesn't misunderstand and think that a dog that growls should be yelled at or hit, and they go out and get a puppy and proceed to do that, thinking they are doing the right thing to avoid having this happen again.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> I'd say "for these owners" "with this dog" euthanasia is the only realistic solution. It makes me sad to think that owners failed their dog, to the point that it cost the animal their life. I'll go one step further and say that based on the history given, with lack of any training/behavior modification when the problems started, they may want to consider not owning a dog again, unless something seriously changes in how they view training, and the amount of time, consistency, money they want to spend on a dog.
> 
> And I hope the OP doesn't misunderstand and think that a dog that growls should be yelled at or hit, and they go out and get a puppy and proceed to do that, thinking they are doing the right thing to avoid having this happen again.


I don't know "these owners". Do you?


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I don't know "these owners". Do you?


Only that they've owned the dog for 8 yrs and the only training he ever had was a puppy class, and that he started biting and resource guarding and they've done nothing about it til now. I find that usually people who haven't bothered in 8 yrs to train a dog and have been bitten repeatedly, aren't going to suddenly change and spend lots of money on vet exams, behaviorists and trainers, and spend lots of time on training, exercise and being consistent and vigilant.

If the person writing this, were to move out of the home with the dog, so he/she were the only person in the home, and they could manage the dog by limiting opportunities for people to get bitten, then maybe the dog could live without hurting someone else. But in it's current situation, I just don't see it being safe.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> A very good argument for working with the owner to train the dog instead of "board and train." Most dog problems are actually people problems. And it is the people who need the step by step protocols and training the most.


With this type of problem I do agree, not true with your regular every day furball. I think it's the trainer who has to make the decision of what he/she can handle and whether the carry over work to the owners has a chance of helping with dog's problems and then have the honesty to act properly instead of just sucking up the money. Just because dogs are board/trained it does not mean that a good trainer does not work with owners. 

A dog with the above problems at 8 yrs of age a good trainer would in all probability refuse dog and advise a visit to a behaviourist. If that program can't be done PTS is the answer.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

wvasko said:


> With this type of problem I do agree, not true with your regular every day furball. I think it's the trainer who has to make the decision of what he/she can handle and whether the carry over work to the owners has a chance of helping with dog's problems and then have the honesty to act properly instead of just sucking up the money. Just because dogs are board/trained it does not mean that a good trainer does not work with owners.
> 
> A dog with the above problems at 8 yrs of age a good trainer would in all probability refuse dog and advise a visit to a behaviourist. If that program can't be done PTS is the answer.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This. 

I was asked to train a Pit Bull one time (with the owner). I gave one free lesson at the local park and the dog improved a LOT (the #1 issue was loose leash walking). They called me and I had a paying customer until they said, "We run a children's day care here and "Spaz" (the dog) has an issue with small children. The other day he grabbed a little boy who is three by his butt. He did not hurt him (left red marks?!!?) but we are afraid he will. He goes nuts in his kennel trying to get at small children." I *immediately turned the job down *and referred them to someone I know who specializes in human aggressive dogs (not that I like his methods.. but that is what I do). 

There is too much liability of taking on a dog that has bitten someone ONCE and it is KNOWN that the dog bites (and with the OP's dog, there have been SEVERAL times the dog has bitten). Training with the owner at their house, training at the park in a class, or at my house as a send out training project I take in, is more liability than I will financially accept. A dog that has bitten ONCE is a liability. If that dog comes to me for training in ANY of the above scenarios and bites someone else AFTER it has been to training, guess who shares the liability? Yup.. Me... the "trainer." 

I refer them to the guy who says he specializes in this sort of thing and/or recommend a behaviorist and yes, I will recommend to PTS the dog if they are unwilling or unable to do either. Most people find it far less expensive to replace the dog than to hire someone. 

I do not believe all dogs can be saved and I do not believe all dogs SHOULD be saved. From the OP's description and discussion of a dog that is 8 years old, has been resource guarding in some manner for YEARS, has bitten Several times and severely enough to require stitches, and who has never had anyone commit to training (and likely never will) I would say this is one that should not be saved. 

ALL the advice in the world, be it in person from a behaviorist (the OP says they cannot afford) or from a trainer is not worth the time and breath if it is not followed through. 

While I gave my opinion about the next dog (should they get one) I would really rather suggest they not get another dog at all (due to the lack of committment to training). 

Again, just an opinion and the advice I am giving based on the post and it is important to remember that free advice is often worth what you paid for it.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

what about medical issues? She is an older dog & could be having a medical issue that might be exasperating her aggression, she might be losing her hearing, eyesight or she might have a thyroid imbalance. Somewhere on this site there is a sticky on thyroid & how it affects temperament. 

Please explore all options before making a PTS decision. My old dog, Izze is very arthritic & will also get grumpy if suddenly disturbed or if someone pets her too roughly & she will bite strangers now, so I monitor her behavior & if I think the situation is out iof my control then I put her where she can't be bothered.


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> what about medical issues? She is an older dog & could be having a medical issue that might be exasperating her aggression, she might be losing her hearing, eyesight or she might have a thyroid imbalance. Somewhere on this site there is a sticky on thyroid & how it affects temperament.
> 
> Please explore all options before making a PTS decision. My old dog, Izze is very arthritic & will also get grumpy if suddenly disturbed or if someone pets her too roughly & she will bite strangers now, so I monitor her behavior & if I think the situation is out iof my control then I put her where she can't be bothered.


 It wouldn't be unusual for a dog that age to have medical issues that can cause aggression. However after 8 yrs of biting and resource guarding, treating any medical condition probably won't do much, since the dog's natural default to someone waking it up/touching it when it has a toy/food is to bite. The dynamics between the dog and it's owners is pretty much set. And the "forgetting" of the parents to not bother the dog when it is sleeping, is probably not going to change.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> Only that they've owned the dog for 8 yrs and the only training he ever had was a puppy class, and that he started biting and resource guarding and they've done nothing about it til now. I find that usually people who haven't bothered in 8 yrs to train a dog and have been bitten repeatedly, aren't going to suddenly change and spend lots of money on vet exams, behaviorists and trainers, and spend lots of time on training, exercise and being consistent and vigilant.
> 
> If the person writing this, were to move out of the home with the dog, so he/she were the only person in the home, and they could manage the dog by limiting opportunities for people to get bitten, then maybe the dog could live without hurting someone else. But in it's current situation, I just don't see it being safe.


Lots of people don't even do a puppy class, and don't know what to do when their dog starts developing a behavior issue. Generally folks don't seek help until they can no longer ignore the elephant in the living room. That doesn't mean they are stupid or lazy. It just means they are pretty average owners, unlike some of us whose dogs are a huge part of our daily life. The thing is, IF the dog is actually only biting when he's resource guarding or surprised when he's sleeping, that's a whole lot different from a dog who bites randomly or in a number of situations. Unless there are small children in the home, it should be possible to avoid those situations while working on installing different behaviors and attitudes with the help of a professional. (and for the waking up thing - I'd just make it a point to stop surprising the dog when he's asleep. That should be do-able.) I'm also surprised that so many people are going straight to euthanasia without even suggesting a thorough health work-up. I know that when my dogs are grumpy (not biting humans but warning the other dogs away) it is generally because they are guarding a painful area.


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> Lots of people don't even do a puppy class, and don't know what to do when their dog starts developing a behavior issue. Generally folks don't seek help until they can no longer ignore the elephant in the living room. That doesn't mean they are stupid or lazy. It just means they are pretty average owners, unlike some of us whose dogs are a huge part of our daily life. The thing is, IF the dog is actually only biting when he's resource guarding or surprised when he's sleeping, that's a whole lot different from a dog who bites randomly or in a number of situations. Unless there are small children in the home, it should be possible to avoid those situations while working on installing different behaviors and attitudes with the help of a professional. (and for the waking up thing - I'd just make it a point to stop surprising the dog when he's asleep. That should be do-able.) I'm also surprised that so many people are going straight to euthanasia without even suggesting a thorough health work-up. I know that when my dogs are grumpy (not biting humans but warning the other dogs away) it is generally because they are guarding a painful area.


I never said they were lazy or stupid. The OP said that the dog has bitten everyone in the house at least 10 times, and that the parents forget how he is. Based on his/her statements, and the dog's history, I don't see the dog as ever being a safe dog in that home.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> I never said they were lazy or stupid. The OP said that the dog has bitten everyone in the house at least 10 times, and that the parents forget how he is. Based on his/her statements, and the dog's history, I don't see the dog as ever being a safe dog in that home.


I never said that you said they were lazy or stupid. Several people have suggested that they would be unwilling or unable to follow a protocol. I'm not sure if she(?) meant that the dog had bitten every family member at least ten times, or had bitten at least 10 times and all family members had been bitten. The OP sounds fairly young. One thing I have noticed about teenagers is that frequently they know a lot and their parents know nothing. It may be that there are no workable options besides euthanasia. I wouldn't want to come to that decision without meeting the dog and interviewing the owners, asking very specific questions. I certainly wouldn't want to come to that decision on the internet, based on a post.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> *he has bit everyone in my house at least ten times, some being serious requiring stitches.* although my parent's have pretty much just blown it off, a recent incident has set them over the edge. my dog was sleeping on his pillow, and i guess my mom went to grab something that was near him. he woke up, and bit her finger. my mom thought it was fine, but within a few days realized it wasn't. *she went to the dr who sent her to a hospital where she ended up having surgery because it had gotten super infected. my mom spent 5 days in the hospital, and came home to an in home IV treatment.* my mom spent the entire time in the hospital worrying about my dog and what we are going to do. everyone is telling us to put him down because of the number of times he has done this, and because of the severity of this one. but i can't just jump to that conclusion without seeing what our other options are first. *i am well aware of how my dog is when he sleeps, so i leave him be. however, my parent's seem to "forget" how he gets, causing these terrible situations.* do you think this can be fixed and get out of him since he is already 8? idk if that's too old to try to change things like this? *he also has a very bad food aggression problem*, but we were told that is probably caused by trying to force his way through his brothers and sisters when he was younger to food from their mother. i guess i am just asking for advice, and whether a normal dog trainer should be able to help with this, or if we are just left with only one option? the thing that i am worried about is that even if we get a trainer, it's not guaranteed to work, and we can't risk this happening again, especially to someone outside of my family.


"_he has bit everyone in my house at least ten times_" Sounds like he has bitten everyone in the house (we do not know how many people reside there) at least 10 times. This is BEFORE the latest incident. This is throught the previous 7 years. That is a LOT of biting IMO.

"_she went to the dr who sent her to a hospital where she ended up having surgery because it had gotten super infected. my mom spent 5 days in the hospital, and came home to an in home IV treatment."_ In this day and age it is uncommon for anyone to be in a hospital for more than 24 hours and this woman ended up in the hospital for 5 days. The FIRST bites (prior to this) were a Public Health isse and this takes it past that _regardless of why._ Dog has been biting all along!

_"i am well aware of how my dog is when he sleeps, so i leave him be. however, my parent's seem to "forget" how he gets, causing these terrible situations."_ It does not matter if they forget or not, the dog bites. OF course it couldbe a medical issue.. but if it really were, would not the dog, by now (7 years into a bite history) exhibit OTHER symptoms? 

_"he also has a very bad food aggression problem"_ Looks like more than just an issue at his bed. The dog has, from the poster's own description, another bite related issue.

_"the thing that i am worried about is that even if we get a trainer, it's not guaranteed to work, and we can't risk this happening again, *especially to someone outside of my family*_ Hello? We all know there are no guaranteed fixes even if the issue is addressed. The OP admitted they cannot accept any more _risk!_ 

It is those statements, from the OP, that make the case for Euthanasia. ONLY THEY know the dog.. and the family has not recognized the Elephant in the Room. They do not have the financial resources to evict the elephant and they do not, from the OP's OWN WORDS, the willingness to accept the risk. 

Not all dogs can be saved. Not all dogs deserve to be saved. At this point, even if the dog IS found to have a medical condition, he is OUT OF TIME. THAT shoud have been checked out from day one. He has been doing this since they got him! They took him to training but it "didn't help much." Due to the subject of the post it appears it did not help much with the biting which was inherent when the adopted the dog at age 1 year!


----------



## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

I'm coming into this thread a bit late, but I want to say, I had to make this decision with my first dog. She was a mixed breed, about 50 lbs or so. Later found out she was very in-bred. We loved her to bits but she was a biter. I hired trainers (didnt know about behaviourists 15 yrs ago) and we did everything we could to 'fix' her. After she attacked the neighbor boy and opened up his chin, we put her down. One of the hardest decisions I've ever made, but I know I did the right thing. I'm sorry I waited as long as I did. OP, please be responsible, before someone gets even more hurt than they already have been.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Not all dogs can be saved. Not all dogs deserve to be saved. At this point, even if the dog IS found to have a medical condition, he is OUT OF TIME. THAT shoud have been checked out from day one. He has been doing this since they got him! They took him to training but it "didn't help much." Due to the subject of the post it appears it did not help much with the biting which was inherent when the adopted the dog at age 1 year!


If OP has told the truth or anywhere near it, the above is pretty much what should/could/would be done, but nobody online can make that decision so dog is safe. These are just replies answering the help reply as to what they would do. If OP is a young person the parents may not even know anything about the asked for internet help.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I kind of have a grouchy dog also, strangers would never be able to approach her while she was sleeping, or even startle her, she would turn around & snap for sure. I can when she is in a dead sleep & physically move her without her doing anything because she trusts me, as I have been manuiplating her since she was a baby puppy, I used to make a game of it. She is a true one person dog. Does that make her a BAD dog or a dog that deserves to be euthed?


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> I kind of have a grouchy dog also, strangers would never be able to approach her while she was sleeping, or even startle her, she would turn around & snap for sure. I can when she is in a dead sleep & physically move her without her doing anything because she trusts me, as I have been manuiplating her since she was a baby puppy, I used to make a game of it. She is a true one person dog. Does that make her a BAD dog or a dog that deserves to be euthed?


I myself like grouchy dogs under control by owner or environmentally controlled. Nothing wrong with a one person dog as long as they don't damage a second person. (unless the second person needs damaging)

Actually OP does not have to PTS the dog as long as the family does not mind getting bit.


----------



## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> I kind of have a grouchy dog also, strangers would never be able to approach her while she was sleeping, or even startle her, she would turn around & snap for sure. I can when she is in a dead sleep & physically move her without her doing anything because she trusts me, as I have been manuiplating her since she was a baby puppy, I used to make a game of it. She is a true one person dog. Does that make her a BAD dog or a dog that deserves to be euthed?


Are you able to manage her and her environment so that she doesn't bite people in your home over and over again?


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Are you able to manage her and her environment so that she doesn't bite people in your home over and over again?>>>>


Im thinking the same thing. We do not have a full picture. Is the biting mostly regarding the dogs bed? if so maybe a crate which is out of the way rather than a bed out in the open????

As far as the dog having a bad resource guarding issue and not having that issue respond to the group basic petsmart class is not surprising.

I am surprised at how many are jumping to Put the dog down so quickly if the family is willing to work with it. RG is not unmanageable in most cases if the owner is willing.

start w NILF


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> I kind of have a grouchy dog also, strangers would never be able to approach her while she was sleeping, or even startle her, she would turn around & snap for sure. I can when she is in a dead sleep & physically move her without her doing anything because she trusts me, as I have been manuiplating her since she was a baby puppy, I used to make a game of it. She is a true one person dog. Does that make her a BAD dog or a dog that deserves to be euthed?


No, it makes her a (possibly) fearful dog that you know how to manage so that she doesn't bite. I have one as well that I manage in her fear situations, make sure she's properly introduced to anyone that enters the house and if needed crate to keep her from having a bite incident. This is COMPLETELY different than a dog that is biting FAMILY MEMBERS it's been around for years that know the situation and refuse to properly manage it.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> No, it makes her a (possibly) fearful dog that you know how to manage so that she doesn't bite. I have one as well that I manage in her fear situations, make sure she's properly introduced to anyone that enters the house and if needed crate to keep her from having a bite incident. This is COMPLETELY different than a dog that is biting FAMILY MEMBERS it's been around for years that know the situation and refuse to properly manage it.


oh no, its not a fear thing. She hasn't bitten anyone because I do manage her emviromentby removing her when she is getting to stressed.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I myself like grouchy dogs under control by owner or environmentally controlled. Nothing wrong with a one person dog as long as they don't damage a second person. (unless the second person needs damaging)
> 
> Actually OP does not have to PTS the dog as long as the family does not mind getting bit.


IF, as the OP says, the bites only occur in these two situations (resource guarding food and being woke up by a person's close presence) they could probably avoid getting bit just by being a bit more thoughtful (and then training would be a plus.).



Elana55 said:


> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Again, just an opinion and the advice I am giving based on the post and it is important to remember that free advice is often worth what you paid for it.


Exactly. Which is why I try very hard not to give specific advice about potentially dangerous situations over the internet (other than "consult a professional who can meet your dog and ask really good questions."
I have recommended euthanasia, though it breaks my heart to do so. I have suggested that some people need more help than I am able to provide. I have told people that unless they are willing to follow a specific protocol and do a lot of management, killing their dog is the best option. In those cases, I've met the dog, met the humans and accessed the situation based on more than email.


----------



## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> IF, as the OP says, the bites only occur in these two situations (resource guarding food and being woke up by a person's close presence) they could probably avoid getting bit just by being a bit more thoughtful (and then training would be a plus.).


I'm more worried about a third party. A visitor who does not know the dog's history. Also, judging by the posts, this has progressed and worsened over time. Whose to say it won't continue to get worse. Ie: Just walking by the dog causes the dog to get up and charge/lunge and bite and do damage.

Pawzk9 - I am curious, when would you advocate euthanasia? Your suggestion of "being a bit more thoughtful" does not help the resource guarding, it worsens it because it is not being addressed in a productive way. It seems like to me, and I could be wrong, that this is "sweeping the problem under the rug". This family is basically living in fear of their own dog. Now that this dog knows that when he growls/bites it gets the human away, it will just progress. What about beds? Couches? If the dog was sleeping on the couch and you wanted to sit down, well, tough luck cause if you try the dog is going to bite you. And I don't mean growl and nip, I mean physically cause damage to you with intent to harm.

So I am curious, in this specific scenario, when will you advocate euthanasia as a good option? When the dog causes irreparable damage? When the dog progresses worse and starts guarding other things? If the humans do not find a behaviorist and begin training?


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Nil said:


> I'm more worried about a third party. A visitor who does not know the dog's history. Also, judging by the posts, this has progressed and worsened over time. Whose to say it won't continue to get worse. Ie: Just walking by the dog causes the dog to get up and charge/lunge and bite and do damage.
> 
> Pawzk9 - I am curious, when would you advocate euthanasia? Your suggestion of "being a bit more thoughtful" does not help the resource guarding, it worsens it because it is not being addressed in a productive way. It seems like to me, and I could be wrong, that this is "sweeping the problem under the rug". This family is basically living in fear of their own dog. Now that this dog knows that when he growls/bites it gets the human away, it will just progress. What about beds? Couches? If the dog was sleeping on the couch and you wanted to sit down, well, tough luck cause if you try the dog is going to bite you. And I don't mean growl and nip, I mean physically cause damage to you with intent to harm.
> 
> So I am curious, in this specific scenario, when will you advocate euthanasia as a good option? When the dog causes irreparable damage? When the dog progresses worse and starts guarding other things? If the humans do not find a behaviorist and begin training?


 The resource guarding is where training comes in. With a dog like this, if you want to keep it alive and not get hurt, you train while you manage. When will I advocate euthanasia? When I have met the dog and the people and have a more substanative picture of the situation than is available on the internet from a teenager who thinks his/her parents are really stupid. Or if the humans are not willing to consult a behaviorist or competent trainer and begin training..


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL for someone who is admonishing other people for making assumptions about the dog and parents, you are making some pretty big ones about the OP. We don't know that s/he is a teenager and/or thinks the parents are really stupid.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I have recommended euthanasia, though it breaks my heart to do so.


This may be the practical side of me.. or maybe the prgmatic side of me.. but when a dog has bitten people for a number of years like this and nothing was done, it does not break my heart to recommend euthanasia. 

What DOES break my heart is all the dogs that do not bite, do not hurt anyone, and who are just untrained in basics, who end up at shelters and PTS simply because there are no homes for them. Most are under 2 years old. Most were gotten by people who saw a cute puppy and took it home. Most have never turned an ill will toward a human or another dog. PTS'ing those dogs is heart breaking.

PTS'ing a dog that has a 7 year bite history is not heartbreaking. It is managing a public health issue. It IS usually heart breaking for the owner while everyone else who has been around the dog may breathe a sigh of relief.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

PTS'ing a dog that has a 7 year bite history is not heartbreaking. >>>>

it is if the family is willing to try and help the problem and seek out the proper guidance. maybe it took them 7 years to get to that point.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

sassafras said:


> LOL for someone who is admonishing other people for making assumptions about the dog and parents, you are making some pretty big ones about the OP. We don't know that s/he is a teenager and/or thinks the parents are really stupid.


Point taken. Lets just say I won't recommend either a specific course of action or death for an animal on the basis of a post on the internet by someone who says they can't afford professional help. Is that better?



Elana55 said:


> This may be the practical side of me.. or maybe the prgmatic side of me.. but when a dog has bitten people for a number of years like this and nothing was done, it does not break my heart to recommend euthanasia.
> 
> What DOES break my heart is all the dogs that do not bite, do not hurt anyone, and who are just untrained in basics, who end up at shelters and PTS simply because there are no homes for them. Most are under 2 years old. Most were gotten by people who saw a cute puppy and took it home. Most have never turned an ill will toward a human or another dog. PTS'ing those dogs is heart breaking.
> 
> PTS'ing a dog that has a 7 year bite history is not heartbreaking. It is managing a public health issue. It IS usually heart breaking for the owner while everyone else who has been around the dog may breathe a sigh of relief.



I always find it sad to recommend euthanasia, though there have been situations when I have done so. I suppose that is because I really like dogs and their people. Even the difficult dogs and the people who don't know what they should be doing. I also don't think dogs are interchangable - kill this one and go get a better one from the shelter.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

wvasko said:


> As a trainer I possibly could stop dog from biting me, notice I said possibly. This, in all probability would not help the owners at all, as when dog gets back home all training may/could/would be lost. Two viable choices stated above, dog crated and released in home carefully, treated as you would a not quite domesticated animal. Of course this is like playing Russian Roulette. Other choice is much safer for all concerned, PTS the dog as he certainly has done enough damage to OP's family.


I've watched the Dan video and just gonna repeat the above reply. Obviously some aversives were used as you could see dog at back of crate and in all fairness Dan says positive would not work with this type of problem. Opinions please.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I see dan set a record for being banned Im guessing because of the link to his facebook acct. In his defense Im sure it was innocent. 

I echo the earlier statement that dogs should not be thought of as interchangeable in my mind. sometimes aversives are usefull in these cases even if its only to get a degree of safety and calmness so other methods can work. I commented to dan that im sure I was going to get responses about the dog moving to the back of the crate or showing stress. My view is- Oh well, he's alive and reportedly a "different dog" for the better for over a month.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

jiml said:


> I see dan set a record for being banned Im guessing because of the link to his facebook acct. In his defense Im sure it was innocent.
> 
> I echo the earlier statement that dogs should not be thought of as interchangeable in my mind. sometimes aversives are usefull in these cases even if its only to get a degree of safety and calmness so other methods can work. I commented to dan that im sure I was going to get responses about the dog moving to the back of the crate or showing stress. My view is- Oh well, he's alive and reportedly a "different dog" for the better for over a month.


I surely have no problem with whatever he did as this probably was a dog's last chance to survive. I'm gonna keep fingers crossed. I'm hoping for more opinions.


----------

