# Keystone Puppies Stands Behind All Puppies Sold Through Their Website!!



## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

I want to start by apologizing for closing the last thread. I am new to this site and did not realize I did that. The only reason I started a thread was to help the user who stated that they got a sick puppy through our website. We stand behind every puppy that is sold through our website and I was looking to rectify the situation as I was not aware of what was going on. I have yet to hear back from that particular person so I'm not really sure if there was a problem or not?? I know if I had a sick puppy...I would be contacting everybody that was involved.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

How come you never answered any of the questions from the other thread you started, you keep saying you stand behind all your puppies but you don't say what their living conditions were like or if the parents have a good living condition. I hope that the puppy get well but I don't think the OP of that thread is coming back (they might but probably not). If you believe in healthy puppies, EVERY SINGLE puppy should be health tested as in hips, eyes (some breeds have been known for having bad eyes like collies), and other health defects (not just some of them). It's your responsibility to get these "breeders" to do these or drop them from your website. You just keep dodging all the questions we ask, if you are a reputable breeder (I'm very highly doubting it) then you should be able to answer questions no problem


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I would agree with that, please start by answering all the questions asked of you in the last thread that you didn't respond to.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Oh goodness...


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

What they said...

Nothing else matters if you keep avoiding the questions you were asked previously.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

when you call to purchase the puppy you would have to speak to the breeder. Some dogs are house pets some are farm dogs some dogs have hip cert others may not be


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

op2: oh yay, a rerun. I missed the last show.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> when you call to purchase the puppy you would have to speak to the breeder. Some dogs are house pets some are farm dogs some dogs have hip cert others may not be


 And some dogs shouldn't be bred for this reason (they need to be completely healthy for their puppies to be healthy) it's not only the breeders in the wrong here you are a big part of the problem because you are advertising their dogs for them. Because you are advertising their dogs for them it is YOUR responsibility to make sure these puppies are healthy not only the breeder. You could stop everything if you just say "no I can't advertise for your dogs because you don't health test them and you won't take the puppies back if they have no where else to go". So don't just say "you have to talk to the breeder" because you are the one that could stop it if you wanted to.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Links to the other two threads, for people who find this through Googling Keystone Puppies:

One
Two

Keystone Puppies does not appear to be a so-called "puppy mill" itself, but it is a broker website that sells dogs from a variety of sub-standard breeders located in PA, a hotbed of puppy mill activity (do some research into Amish puppy mills). Buyer definitely beware!


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

No reputable breeder would use a broker website like yours to advertise and sell their puppies. 

(In before the lock )


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

most of our breeders of labs goldens boxer and germans are having their parents hip certified. And we are continually encouraging them for more screenings. We discount rates for breeders who give extended warranties on their puppies


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> when you call to purchase the puppy you would have to speak to the breeder. Some dogs are house pets some are farm dogs some dogs have hip cert others may not be


Avoiding questions again... I'll gather a few questions for you from the other thread:

"How do you know your breeders aren't inbreeding?" -Willowy
"Yep, he'll be super thrilled if he has to drop $6000 on hip replacements before the dog is 2. What did the breeders do to minimize the chance of that?" -Willowy (Referring to a lab shipped to Canada)
"if a buyer no longer can care for a pup what happens to it? I highly doubt you guys even know" -Momtolabs
"Are you familiar with the major health problems affecting cavaliers? Are you aware at what age these usually manifest? Did you have your dog screened for these issues?" -Crantastic

A summary of a point many brought up:
Dogs do not have to be "show quality" or "champions" to be sold. But only dogs actually tested to be healthy should be bred. Being from a "champion bloodline" means nothing. How do you ensure only HEALTHY dogs are bred?

EDIT:



Keystone Puppies said:


> *most* of our breeders of labs goldens boxer and germans are having their *parents* hip certified. And we are continually *encouraging* them for more screenings. We discount rates for breeders who give extended warranties on their puppies



So you say their parents are being hip certified.... Meaning they've already been bred before being certified.
You also say most, as in not all.
You make no mention of what happens to the breeders who do not comply with health testing.
You make no mention of what happens to dams and sires who fail health testing.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> when you call to purchase the puppy you would have to speak to the breeder. Some dogs are house pets some are farm dogs some dogs have hip cert others may not be


So you advertise for breeders who do not adequately health test their dogs. Please continue.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Obviously if this guy gave a dam, he would know the answers to our questions. Since he doesn't and is just deflecting, I really don't think he deserves the time of day.

Hip testing is a bare minimum, reputable breeders test for ALL genetic issues that are pertinent in the breed.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

Funny thing is, his hole keeps getting deeper....lol
op2:


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

I've had dogs all my life and I've never had health issues and none of the parents had any screenings


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

PandaSPUR said:


> Avoiding questions again... I'll gather a few questions for you from the other thread:
> 
> "How do you know your breeders aren't inbreeding?" -Willowy
> "Yep, he'll be super thrilled if he has to drop $6000 on hip replacements before the dog is 2. What did the breeders do to minimize the chance of that?" -Willowy (Referring to a lab shipped to Canada)
> ...





Keystone Puppies said:


> I've had dogs all my life and I've never had health issues and none of the parents had any screenings


So you've been lucky. Now answer the questions.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I've had dogs all my life and I've never had health issues and none of the parents had any screenings


And we all know that personal anecdotes are proof! Just because your own dogs apparently didn't have any issues, that means that health testing is a waste of time, right?

Keep digging the hole, buddy. The more posts these threads get, the more likely they are to show up when people Google your business.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I've had dogs all my life and I've never had health issues and none of the parents had any screenings


That's called luck, but it eventually runs out.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I've had dogs all my life and I've never had health issues and none of the parents had any screenings


YOU STILL AREN'T ANSWERING ANY QUESTIONS!!!, and you must have gotten lucky then. someone even did the work D thank you panda) and brought the questions over from the other thread. ANSWER THE QUESTIONS AND STOP DODGING.


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## Beagles (Jun 4, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> The more posts these threads get, the more likely they are to show up when people Google your business.


Here's me adding a post


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> most of our breeders of labs goldens boxer and germans are having their parents hip certified. And we are continually encouraging them for more screenings. We discount rates for breeders who give extended warranties on their puppies


_Most_ of your breeders? Who's doing the screening? Can you link us to some results?


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I've had dogs all my life and I've never had health issues and none of the parents had any screenings


Right, because that makes a difference.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Careful guys, keep in mind on google, only the thread title and a few snippets of text is shown.

Unless a person actually clicks the link, they'll think theres a whole thread praising the puppy mill.

A moderator should unlock the other thread and merge this one with it. (thus you have one result with a praising title instead of two)
Or lock both threads and merge.
Or censor both thread titles (although this may be a bit in bad taste).


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Also, how many dogs can one person own in his or her lifetime? Not even a fraction of the amount that the Amish puppy mills and BYBs are pumping out and selling through broker websites like Keystone Puppies.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

OMG, they have a Pinterest account too apparently? http://pinterest.com/keystonepuppie/


Hmmm....complete with photos of "Morkies", "Maltipoos", "Yorkiechons", "Jugs", "Mini Goldendoodles", "Boxadors", "Pomapoos". I could go on.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a question for the OP:

On your Pinterest, you say, "Reputable Breeders = Healty Puppies = Happy Customers!"

*What do you consider a "reputable breeder"?*

That should be an easy enough question, right?


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## zeronightfarm (Jun 15, 2011)

PandaSPUR said:


> Careful guys, keep in mind on google, only the thread title and a few snippets of text is shown.
> 
> Unless a person actually clicks the link, they'll think theres a whole thread praising the puppy mill.
> 
> ...


People who are actually doing the research will open the links.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

Someone who stands behind their puppies. If they have genetic health issues they will reimburse the consumer


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Oh great...Here we go again... :doh:

Keystone puppies, all your doing is making yourself look like a fool.

Apparently keystone puppies has a twitter, & facebook;
https://twitter.com/KeystonePuppies
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Keystone-Puppies/486871958007133


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Someone who stands behind their puppies. If they have genetic health issues they will reimburse the consumer


I find it funny that you answer this in the third person, meaning you dont want it in text that you will reimburse the consumer?
Meaning its even hard for you to call yourself reputable?

Either way, your health guarantees are as short as 30-days for some puppies... That's pretty useless.

And you're still avoiding the questions. Very valid questions too.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

So you can answer questions....ok then answer the rest of them


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Someone who stands behind their puppies. If they have genetic health issues they will reimburse the consumer


yeah, except then the consumer has a sick or worse puppy. You can't just replace a damaged life by reimbursing the consumer for money they are losing in vet bills. Sounds just like what pet stores pull when they sell sick puppies (also from puppy mills). "Oh, that puppy has a degenerative hip disease that will cause it to suffer for the rest of it's life? Here is $100 toward your vet bills."


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

Once again I didn't come to argue..... The reason I came on here was to rectify a situation. Someone said they got a sick dog from our site. I was just wondering who the breeder was to find out more. For some reason that individual is nowhere to be heard from. It's ironic that the account was just recently opened but yet I can't contact this individual.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I wonder not just about health testing of the parents (as important as that is) but the conditions the parents are being kept in. Google searching for the breeders listed on the available puppies on the sites owned by the person responding to the other threat as the website owner indicates that a number of the breeders have over 50 or even over 100 breeding dogs, often several different breeds. How much human attention, training, care and mental stimulation are those 100+ breeding adults getting? Some of the breeders had kennel licenses allowing 251+ dogs on their property at a time. Not just backyard breeding, careless breeding or breeding without regards to genetic problems but by all appearances, breeding as basically commercial farming (aka puppy mills). 
Most of the addresses match locations notorious for puppy mills and many of the breeder names being advertised match (uncommon) last names AND towns of people cited for various problems at their puppy mills.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Once again I didn't come to argue..... The reason I came on here was to rectify a situation. Someone said they got a sick dog from our site. I was just wondering who the breeder was to find out more. For some reason that individual is nowhere to be heard from. It's ironic that the account was just recently opened but yet I can't contact this individual.


 We aren't trying to argue we just want some questions answered and you keep dodging them, like with this post. Ignoring the questions and talking about something else.....you really can't answer ANY of those questions?


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Once again I didn't come to argue..... The reason I came on here was to rectify a situation. Someone said they got a sick dog from our site. I was just wondering who the breeder was to find out more. For some reason that individual is nowhere to be heard from. It's ironic that the account was just recently opened but yet I can't contact this individual.


Reputable breeders keep in touch with the families their puppies go to. Too bad your breeders aren't reputable.



JazzyTheSiberian said:


> Oh great...Here we go again... :doh:
> 
> Keystone puppies, all your doing is making yourself look like a fool.
> 
> ...


Posted on their facebook, will probably just get deleted but worth a shot.


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Lol I just did a search into keystone puppies but these threads on on like the 5th page, the second result is a dogster forum post calling it a puppy mill 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

As right now,I doubt that Keystone puppies will answer the questions... 


Is it really that hard to answer the questions?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Once again I didn't come to argue..... The reason I came on here was to rectify a situation. Someone said they got a sick dog from our site. I was just wondering who the breeder was to find out more. For some reason that individual is nowhere to be heard from. It's ironic that the account was just recently opened but yet I can't contact this individual.


Well, unfortunately for you, you stumbled onto a forum full of educated dog owners (some of whom are reputable breeders) who care about the health and welfare of all dogs. We are not going to sit idly by and let someone pass a broker and a bunch of disreputable breeders off as caring, compassionate dog lovers -- that's an insult to real dog lovers, and an insult to reputable breeders. Now you're being asked some reasonable questions, and you're either dodging those or giving completely unsatisfactory answers. You're making yourself look bad here.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

anything I answer won't be good enough..... Once again we advertise just like many other sites do with the exception we stand behind every puppy we sell. Unfortunately if a dog is sick there would be 2 sides of a story. Thats why I wanted to know who the breeder was with the sick dog situation. Anyone can say they got a sick dog from our site. If I got a sick dog I would be stating the breeders name and website


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I want to start by apologizing for closing the last thread. I am new to this site and did not realize I did that.


You didn't close the thread. A moderator closed the thread after you accused the forum of being bullies. There are rules against personal attacks, and a report feature intended to notify a moderator. Please read our forum rules.

That said, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to gain from this forum.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Someone who stands behind their puppies. If they have genetic health issues they will reimburse the consumer


It appears Keystone is standing behind the puppies, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY BEHIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

yeah and if you read the whole post was created because a puppy looked scared in a video


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...7721539730.113149.156905404730&type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...79936294.50214.196025447082684&type=1&theater

This is what your "business" supports. I have just one question....How do you sleep at night?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Keystone Puppies said:


> anything I answer won't be good enough.....


And that's entirely your fault. We're not anti-breeder here, not at all. Like I said, we have members here who are great breeders, and we follow their litter threads with interest and support. They take care to do proper genetic screening, many of them show their dogs, they offer multi-year health guarantees, and they choose their own puppy buyers and support those buyers for the dog's entire life, among other things. If you were doing things properly, then we'd support you, too. You're obviously not.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

So Cavalier said:


> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...7721539730.113149.156905404730&type=1&theater
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...79936294.50214.196025447082684&type=1&theater
> 
> This is what your "business" supports. I have just one question....How do you sleep at who night?


Anyone who runs a business like this just sickens me. How can you do such a horrible & disgusting thing?


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

If you really cared about these dogs, you'd take down your site and stop advertising for these breeders.

These are lives, in your hands. Dogs tortured in tiny cages, pumping out puppies. Day after day. Yeah, you might hear a few people say "I love my puppy I got from you guys!". But you don't know about the rest. The ones put down due to health problems or from bad temperaments. The ones that are being left outside all day because they impulse bought a Cane Corso to look cool. The ones that are matted to the skin suffering because the owners knew nothing about proper care of a poodleX coat. The ones that are passed around owner to owner, or sitting in a shelter. 

Good breeders know where their pups are, and always take them back (REQUIRE IT EVEN) if they are unwanted. They know their breed and will not give their pups to just any owner.

Start a rescue if you love dogs. Or learn what it means to be a real reputable breeder.

But wait.. it's all about the money.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> If you really cared about these dogs, you'd take down your site and stop advertising for these breeders.
> 
> These are lives, in your hands. Dogs tortured in tiny cages, pumping out puppies. Day after day. Yeah, you might hear a few people say "I love my puppy I got from you guys!". But you don't know about the rest. The ones put down due to health problems or from bad temperaments. The ones that are being left outside all day because they impulse bought a Cane Corso to look cool. The ones that are matted to the skin suffering because the owners knew nothing about proper care of a poodleX coat. The ones that are passed around owner to owner, or sitting in a shelter.
> 
> ...


This. This this so much this.

If you love dogs so much, why are you helping to contribute to the TENS OF THOUSANDS being killed everyday in shelters?


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

I honestly wish places like what Keystone claims to be did exist. It would be so refreshing to look up and say, "WOW! Good job! You really DO care about the health and happiness of these dogs being bred! Look at all this documentation and feed back from dog owners, buyers, veterinarians and other breeders about how much time, effort and love goes into this business!" 

Why can't it be that way? Because too many "legitimate breeders" are after the all mighty dollar and could give a rats @ss about that sick dog (or HUNDREDS) alone in the back of a barn, stuffed in a cramped, filthy maggot-infested cage. And how anyone can come here and DEFEND that by saying "our 30 Day blah blah guarantee proves how much we care" is just BEGGING to be pooped upon by people like us who honestly LOVE our animals with all our HEARTS! 

Shame on you.


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## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

Run for Mayor Keystone, you certainly have all the avoidance tactics and omissions down.
I'm not sure why a website that brokers for 'breeders' is seen in different light from a pet store in a mall.
I cherish the relationship I have with my breeder. Who would your clients call with behavioral questions as the puppy develops? 
Meeting my breeder, and her dogs was one of the best parts of the puppy finding process. 
It's such a shame that your clients miss out on that great experience and support system.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Well my post got deleted. All I did was say "Dont gamble with buying a puppy from a puppy mill" and linked to the three threads here.

So really, to me this guy is just trying to make a profit, and making himself feel/look better by slapping a health guarantee, which doesnt mean much, on puppy mill puppies.

And the facebook page is obviously controlled to show only good posts.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Start a rescue if you love dogs. Or learn what it means to be a real reputable breeder.
> 
> But wait.. it's all about the money.


Yep. He even said that outright in one of his earlier posts on his other thread:



> Anybody who breeds and sells the puppies is doing it for the monetary gain...it may not be their sole reasoning...but they are making money off of it. Thank you.


This just shows a stunning lack of knowledge for how reputable breeders operate. Showing/working/breeding dogs is a hobby for the best breeders; they do it because they genuinely love a breed and want to work to improve that breed with every generation. They are breaking even most of the time, making a little money if they're lucky (but not enough to live on), and often losing money. They are not producing puppies specifically to sell, but because they want to further their own breeding programs. Pet-quality puppies are a byproduct -- a great one, because they come from people who really care about their health and genetics and will be there to support the buyers for the dogs' entire lives -- but they are a byproduct, not the aim.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

*Why I would personally never purchase a puppy from online puppy brokers:*

1. *Genetic temperament of the parents*. Without meeting the parents of your puppy, you are risking purchasing an animal that matures to be neurotic, reactive, or aggressive. Even characteristics that aren't bad, persay, might be wrong for you, such as high energy and drive. 

2. *Genetic health of the parents*. Purebred and mixed-breed puppies are at risk for health problems that can be passed from parents to offspring. Good breeders will identify the main problems of their breed and screen parents for these issues, breeding only if both parents are clear of issues. Thus, puppies are more likely to be free of these issues during their lives.

3. *Condition in which breeding animals and puppies are kept*. Unless you see the facility for yourself, you are relying on the broker or the breeder to tell you the truth about how the dogs are kept. Since this is a money-making venture for those on this site, can you trust that you're getting the truth? I would personally want my pup to be born and raised in a clean home setting where it can have the best possible start in life. Puppy mills are not good places. Even if you don't care about the ethics of keeping animals in poor conditions(I do!), you should care about the early experiences of the pup you will have to train and care for.

4. *Example of the breed*. Are you really getting an xyz? If I want a doberman, I don't want to cough up money for a dog that's 20 lbs oversized and acts like a golden retriever. I want a doberman. Part of the benefit of going to a good breeder are the show and performance titles they get on their breeding stock that help identify those dogs as worthy of producing the next generation. There's always variation between individuals of a breed, but seeing titles and, again, meeting the parents can help insure that you're getting what you want. 

5. *Reason for breeding*. This is an ethical issue, perhaps. To me, good breeders are in it for the dogs, not for the money. They're in it to create the next generation of working, show, sport, or companion dogs, and they breed carefully toward bettering the breed with their goals. 

Am I forgetting any?


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> *Why I would personally never purchase a puppy from online puppy brokers:*
> 
> 1. *Genetic temperament of the parents*. Without meeting the parents of your puppy, you are risking purchasing an animal that matures to be neurotic, reactive, or aggressive. Even characteristics that aren't bad, persay, might be wrong for you, such as high energy and drive.
> 
> ...


^
I couldn't agree more.


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

It looks like a lot of the puppies on their Facebook come with a "30 day guarantee." Even if you took the puppy to the vet yourself and had screenings done, would you even have results back within that 30 day window? Though some (most?) tests can't even be done until the dog's an adult, so a buyer would be out of luck on anything there.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I googled some of Keystone's so-called reputable breeders. What I found wasn't pretty, but I found solace in the fact that in many cases charges were filed against the breeders and dogs removed from the kennels.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Keystone Puppies,
The core group of regular posters here knows what a reputable breeder. I can say for certainty that the breeders you deal with are not reputable for a variety of reasons but one thing that comes to mind is the face that reputable breeders don't need a middleman, broker, whatever you call yourself. They should have homes for most of the puppies before their paws hit the floor. If they don't, they use their breed club to locate homes. That's just for starters


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cookieface said:


> I googled some of Keystone's so-called reputable breeders. What I found wasn't pretty, but I found solace in the fact that in many cases charges were filed against the breeders and dogs removed from the kennels.


The funny thing is, I just googled a few for fun and google actually auto filled the bar with "(breeder name) puppy mill." One of which was actually charged, but Keystone is still selling puppies for them? http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/PuppyMillArticles.htm


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> The funny thing is, I just googled a few for fun and google actually auto filled the bar with "(breeder name) puppy mill." One of which was actually charged, but Keystone is still selling puppies for them? http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/PuppyMillArticles.htm


You're going to make me look at those sites again???? uke:

Yeah, I got the "(breeder name) puppy mill" auto-fill, too. I will confess that some of the articles were older, perhaps when the laws were initially implemented and had more support.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

*I am speaking directly to the administrator of Keystone Puppies now. I hope you see this and take it to heart.*

Peddling puppies on the internet is just as bad as breeding puppies to be sold on the internet.

I know no amount of us asking you will get you to admit it, but please, stop to think for a moment.

Shelters are overflowing with dogs. Puppies, adults, seniors, trained dogs, healthy dogs, mixed breeds, purebreds, beautiful, wonderful dogs of all shapes and sizes. These dogs are pretty much always the product of bad breeders, like the ones you help. People who don't show their dogs, who don't health test, who don't title, who don't sell under contract, who don't keep tabs on their pups. An irresponsible owner who let their dog breed, or someone who bred a dog and sold or gave the pups away. They found their way from these people, to the shelter, where they will likely die after sitting in a shelter, afraid and alone for months. Many, many of them don't get the luxury of waiting so much as two weeks for someone to come along and adopt them.

What you're doing is *wrong*, and you know it. You KNOW that these breeders are not showing their dogs, they are not health testing them. They do not care who their puppies go to, and neither do you. Most of these puppies will end up dying before their first year. Some of them will end up with genetic defects from lack of care and health testing, and will either need extensive treatment or need to be put down. This will happen within the first 3 years, most likely. A lot of these dogs will end up dumped in shelters, because their owners get over the novelty of them and there is no reputable breeder to take them back to. Some will get sold to someone else. Some will end up in the hands of abusive people, of labs, of fighting rings. Most of them, however, will end up being half-arse cared for before they are bred, carelessly, and the same thing happens to their offspring. 
What you're doing is helping people make money, profit, by selling puppies that never should have been bred in the first place. Puppies out of parents that have no purpose, that have no been health tested, that could have an infinite number of issues. You're helping put money into the pockets of irresponsible, greedy breeders. 
There is no way it's possible for you to go to each of your clients' homes, inspect them, check for proof, legitimate proof, of health testing and showing then be sure that the parents and puppies are receiving proper prenatal care and proper care and benefits while the pups are being raised. You also cannot possibly keep up with where these puppies are going or what happens to them. 
You are helping contribute to over population and the massive number of poorly bred dogs. It is that simple.

And by breeding your mixed breed, untested dog, you personally, first hand contributed to it as well. If you wanted your children to see a dog give birth, you should have fostered a pregnant dog. You would've gotten a mother and her puppies out of a shelter and allowed them a headstart in life and got the same benefit of raising puppies while doing actual good.

If you actually care about dogs, and about the ignorant people buying dogs off your website, think for a moment about what you're doing. You're supporting bad breeders, and you know it. Now, I know the almighty dollar is a very powerful thing, so I understand if it means more to you than dogs' welfare, but at least consider the fact that you, and all other puppy brokers, are part of the issue.


If you want to help dogs, shut your site down, stop advertising for BYBs and millers and set up an adoption site for shelter dogs and dogs in rescues.


~~~~
Also, you need to know that good breeders do not make a dime off their dogs. Between showing, heath testing, prenatal care and the care of the pups, they actually lose money.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Interesting convo...


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> I am speaking directly to the administrator of Keystone Puppies now. I hope you see this and take it to heart


To take something "to heart" requires someone to have a heart. Anyone who peddles puppies knowing the conditions where they come from and the conditions that the poor parents endure for a lifetime has no heart. OP is remarkably silent now. Breaks my heart to know that the OP has a Cavalier (or any dog for that matter....)


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I want to start by apologizing for closing the last thread. I am new to this site and did not realize I did that. The only reason I started a thread was to help the user who stated that they got a sick puppy through our website. We stand behind every puppy that is sold through our website and I was looking to rectify the situation as I was not aware of what was going on. I have yet to hear back from that particular person so I'm not really sure if there was a problem or not?? I know if I had a sick puppy...I would be contacting everybody that was involved.










Just sayin'.... Your posts through out this entire thread are really 'low grade' for someone who claims to run a reputable company with reputable breeders....


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

:whip:

I have nothing else to add as everyone else put the reasons why this business is horrible so well.

Carry on, folks!


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> I have nothing else to add as everyone else put the reasons why this business is horrible so well.


This. I have no new opinions to add. That site is just depressing to look at.


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

Sorry, but i cant sit here and read this one-sided argument any longer. Go to the website click on a breed. Click on a puppy. What do you see? *breeder name, location, contact information*. I dont understand thepoint here and why it all falls on Keystone Puppies if a breeder sold a sick puppy through their site. They clearly list all the information a person needs to be able to contact the breeder with any questions and go see the puppies and the parents and everything themselves. And with the name of the breeder YOU can google THEM and find out if THEY are a puppy mill or not! What do you need to talk to Keystone for?

Complaining to an advertising agency about a product they advertised instead of complaining to the person that is actually selling the product is stupid. Trying to get Keystone to answer all these questions about the puppies _they are not breeding_ would be like me calling up Comcast or even NBC to complain that they have a commercial on TV about Red Lobster having lobster pot pie, but i want to know the ingredients. Neither NBC nor Comcast is going to be able to tell me all the ingredients, because _they are not making it_. Do you get mad at your pet store when there is a recall on food? No, you get mad at the company that makes the food. Again, same principle here, you dont get mad at Keystone for advertising and helping bridge the gap between you and the breeder, you get info on the breeder and research them and use Keystone as a middle man to simply try to help with "bringing happy healthy puppies and families together". The man is trying to run a professional business, he tries to pick good breeders. Its up to the buyer to do the research and talk with the breeder about tests they run and everything before buying the puppy.

Just had to put that out there since nobody seems to be paying attention to that...


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Sorry, but i cant sit here and read this one-sided argument any longer. Go to the website click on a breed. Click on a puppy. What do you see? *breeder name, location, contact information*. I dont understand thepoint here and why it all falls on Keystone Puppies if a breeder sold a sick puppy through their site. They clearly list all the information a person needs to be able to contact the breeder with any questions and go see the puppies and the parents and everything themselves. And with the name of the breeder YOU can google THEM and find out if THEY are a puppy mill or not! What do you need to talk to Keystone for?
> 
> Complaining to an advertising agency about a product they advertised instead of complaining to the person that is actually selling the product is stupid. Trying to get Keystone to answer all these questions about the puppies _they are not breeding_ would be like me calling up Comcast or even NBC to complain that they have a commercial on TV about Red Lobster having lobster pot pie, but i want to know the ingredients. Neither NBC nor Comcast is going to be able to tell me all the ingredients, because _they are not making it_. Do you get mad at your pet store when there is a recall on food? No, you get mad at the company that makes the food. Again, same principle here, you dont get mad at Keystone for advertising and helping bridge the gap between you and the breeder, you get info on the breeder and research them and use Keystone as a middle man to simply try to help with "bringing happy healthy puppies and families together". The man is trying to run a professional business, he tries to pick good breeders. Its up to the buyer to do the research and talk with the breeder about tests they run and everything before buying the puppy.
> 
> Just had to put that out there since nobody seems to be paying attention to that...


Yeah, you should probably do a little reading on what puppy brokers are and how they profit.


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> :whip:
> 
> I have nothing else to add as everyone else put the reasons why this business is horrible so well.
> 
> Carry on, folks!


This. Everyone here is doing so well already. So I will just sit back and watch. op2:
Just makes me sick.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Do you get mad at your pet store when there is a recall on food? No, you get mad at the company that makes the food. Again, same principle here


Actually, no it's not. This is more like... there's a recall on food, and the pet store says, "Eh, we're just gonna keep selling it anyway." And in that case, yep, you can bet I'll get mad.

This is very similar to a pet store selling puppies from a puppy mill. Did the pet store breed those puppies? No, it's "just" the middleman. But that pet store is getting those puppies from disreputable breeders, and their business is allowing those breeders to pump out more and more puppies. So yeah, I "get mad" at pet stores that sell puppies, too.

Like TWAB said, go read up on what puppy brokers are. You clearly don't have a clue.


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

This site has no buy buttons and simply tells you to go to the breeder. They are much more of an advertising agency than a puppy broker from what i am seeing. They arent selling the puppies, they are advertising the puppies and telling you to contact the breeder to buy them.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Again, same principle here, you dont get mad at Keystone for advertising and helping bridge the gap between you and the breeder, you get info on the breeder and research them and use Keystone as a middle man to simply try to help with *"bringing happy healthy puppies and families together"*. The man is trying to run a professional business, *he tries to pick good breeders*. Its up to the buyer to do the research and talk with the breeder about tests they run and everything before buying the puppy.
> 
> Just had to put that out there since nobody seems to be paying attention to that...


No, he does not try to pick good breeders. EVERY SINGLE ONE of the breeder names I googled came up with significant indications of being puppy mills at minimum and some being clearly labeled as negligent by official inspectors. 

No, he is not simply trying to connect "happy healthy" puppies to new families because he is knowingly providing business to, and profiting from, the mistreatment of the breeding dogs and the willful disregard to potential genetic diseases being passed on to those so-called healthy puppies.


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## ludosmum (Jan 4, 2012)

Keystone Puppies said:


> Someone who stands behind their puppies. If they have genetic health issues they will reimburse the consumer


That is good to know.

I would like to know how you calculate reimbursement for the hours spent crying in fear that I am about to lose my best friend too soon? What is the reimbursement for the days of work missed rushing my dog to surgery? Or the nights I have spent listening to him cry in pain? Begging me with those beautiful, soulful eyes to help him.

My dog was irresponsibly bred. I love him dearly and have no qualms about spending the (admittedly) thousands of dollars to give him some semblance of a normal life. But he is five years old and it is likely he won't live to see ten. Not because he isn't loved or cared for. Not because his breed dies young. Because he was poorly bred. 

I rescued him, I didn't buy him from a breeder. I would love another puppy just like him. Because he is good, and loyla, and beautiful, and smart, and goofy and coy. But I would never subject another person to the torture I live through or another dog to the pain and frustration he lives through. 

So you say you encourage your breeders to health test and be better? The best way to encourage them is to STOP advertising them until they do so. Until you are willing to do that you are low in my book.


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

Plus they are saying that if the breeder doesnt comply with the rules they will be dropped, therefore meaning that if it was a pet store selling dog food they _would_ stop selling it.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Paddington... did you uh, also miss the part where they admitted to BREEDING their own "Cavachons?" ...


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

I fully believe in adopting, not buying, but im just saying what i see. I know how it feels to have everybody saying everything at once. It makes you feel cornered and like you are being ganged up on. Im simply adding in points that you can verify on the site to help make the argument a little fairer because the questions he cant answer are supposed to be asked to the breeder by the buyer and that is what he is trying to say. I cant say whether him trying to make a profit in this horrible economy is right or wrong, but i can say that some of the comments can be answered with a few clicks and a phone call to the individual breeders.


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

Breeding isnt a crime. They bred their dogs, but they arent selling their dogs, they are advertising others. I had a cat that had kittens once, i dont know who the father was, they werent tested. We gave the kittens away for free. But im not a horrible person.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Breeding isnt a crime. They bred their dogs, but they arent selling their dogs, they are advertising others. I had a cat that had kittens once, i dont know who the father was, they werent tested. We gave the kittens away for free. But im not a horrible person.


Go back and read all three threads. We're not anti-breeding. We're anti-BAD breeding. This guy is advertising on behalf of terrible breeders, and he doesn't care because it makes him money, and as he said earlier, he believes that all breeders are in it for the money. If he truly dropped any breeders with issues, that how do you explain the ones Shell dug up -- the ones he's still advertising for that have been "clearly labeled as negligent by official inspectors"? You may think you're being the white knight and helping the poor "underdog" who's getting ganged up on, but you're defending someone who does not deserve it.


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## ludosmum (Jan 4, 2012)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Breeding isnt a crime. They bred their dogs, but they arent selling their dogs, they are advertising others. I had a cat that had kittens once, i dont know who the father was, they werent tested. We gave the kittens away for free. But im not a horrible person.


Bad breeding should be a crime.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Plus they are saying that if the breeder doesnt comply with the rules they will be dropped, therefore meaning that if it was a pet store selling dog food they _would_ stop selling it.


Since the rules appear to be something along the lines of "don't sell dogs that are likely to die within the 30 day guarantee", that's really not a sign of supporting proper treatment of the breeding dogs and pups. 

Some of those breeders listed have over 100 breeding dogs on site. What kind of care do you think those dogs are getting? What kind of socializing and training and even just basic human contact do you think the puppies produced from 100 breeding dogs are getting? 

Telling people to just contact the breeders sounds simple, but many of the breeders are listed by first name only (on the related website, more have last names which is how we are googling these kennel records etc) and do you really think if someone in California calls and asks about the dogs that the puppy mill breeders are going to say "Well of course we raise the dogs in our home, we love them" or "Of course our breeding females are kept in cages and bred every heat until they die or we dump them at a shelter" ?

Since this website is saying that it inspects or certifies the breeders and presents them as caring and responsible, it has moved beyond being a simple listing service.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> they are advertising the puppies and telling you to contact the breeder to buy them.


They are part of this dirty business and are receiving revenue from cruelty. So yeah, I have made my opinion known. PaddingtonandMe....I see you are from Lancaster County, PA...an area well known for puppymills. Makes me wonder why you defend this guy.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I was thinking the same thing, So Cavalier. It's a little suspicious that the one person defending this guy who deals with puppy mills lives in Puppy Mill Central.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Breeding isnt a crime. They bred their dogs, but they arent selling their dogs, they are advertising others. I had a cat that had kittens once, i dont know who the father was, they werent tested. We gave the kittens away for free. But im not a horrible person.


Something being legal doesn't make it morally OK. 

It's incredibly skeezy to me even if it was just "advertising" mills. I would argue with that since they ended up here, they are capable of using google and can say "Why, these people were arrested for their actions! I shouldn't tell people to buy puppies from them." Spend any amount of time working with dogs from mill busts. It's awful and there is no way you'd continue defending the actions of "just" advertising.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

For those who missed it on the other thread, here's my post.

I searched the website owner's name and found that he has another business/website with the exact same design and selling even more puppies. This one had more of the breeder's full names listed so I did some searches on them.

See below a little bit of the info....

-------


ireth0 said:


> Also to Shell; so he had a similar website before? Uh huh... totally sounds legit now...
> 
> EDIT* Nope! Apparently that website is still up and running too! Oh good!
> 
> ...


The other press release from Greenfield on that site is interesting too, since it is about a "rare" blue pit bull puppy. It is bad some kid's puppy got stolen, but calling blue pits rare is a classic move to sell them for more money when really they are a dime a dozen in shelters and definitely not rare since they suffer from massive overbreeding.

Scary that they are selling dogs like Presas over the net to anyone with a credit card. I'm not even sure I'd be confident to raise a Presa (especially one from a bad breeder) so I'd bet the type of people that would buy one on a site like this would not be safe and suitable owners. 

Just google some of the breeder's names for the pups advertised there and you'll find link after link from legit sources detailing some very interesting background information. The variety of creative registries is interesting too: ACA, ACHC (American Canine Hybrid Club) for example

I found this article for that mentions several breeders in that area of the country with last names that match several of those advertising on the Greenfield site. Large numbers of dogs, no surprise there


> In the third case, the board neither granted nor denied a similar request by Daniel F. Stoltzfus for a larger kennel on an even smaller property. Stoltzfus testified that he began his operation in 2002 with about 30 dogs, and now has 110 adult breeding females and 23 males. He raises Maltese, Yorkie, Chihuahua, Shih-Tzu and Bichon Frise puppies. His K5 license allows more than 250 dogs per year on 2.8 acres at 255 School Lane Road.


------
110 breeding females and 23 breeding males on 2.8 acres?? I can't imagine keeping a minimum of 133 dogs (of course there are puppies too but an unknown number) on a property the size of about 6-7 typical suburban home lots.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Paddington,

While you are correct that they are merely providing an _advertising_ service for the actual breeders. In previous posts Keystone asserted that they verified the operating environment of each of the "breeders" that advertises on their site. They did this by physically going to each location and making sure all the puppies and parents were "healthy" and in "good" conditions. They also stated that they would NEVER advertise for breeders who didn't meet their criteria for "healthy" breeding and care practices AND would drop them from their service if problems cropped up. Coincidentally, they never did explain the *specific* criteria they used for evaluation, despite being asked repeatedly.

Since the majority of the _breeders_ advertised on their site have been cited for numerous violations, many having had dogs confiscated and some are currently under investigation for deplorable living conditions and breeding practices I can't possibly believe their claims. So, while they are technically still an _advertising_ site they stepped over the line, and drew the much deserved ire of this community, when they started guaranteeing the conditions and health of the "products" they advertise. The website took on that responsibility when they made claims of vetting and endorsing the products contained there in. Which is precisely why advertisers of other products often have DISCLAIMERS that state allowing an advertisement to run is NOT an endorsement of or support for the product or any of the claims contained in the advertisement.


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

Accusing me of defending puppy mills just because i HAPPEN to live in Lancaster County is extremely rude. Im done with this thread now. Thanks Emmet for the better explanations of the facts of the breeders that he is advertising for though, i did not see those. In that case he should be ashamed of some of his clients, but through all of the large amounts of repeat jabbed posts i didnt see the facts from the other side, just mean jabs like the one towards me.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> i didnt see the facts from the other side,


So whose fault is that? You chose to defend the guy.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The facts were clearly posted multiple times in both of this guy's threads, as well as a bunch of questions that he refused to answer, and his assertions that all breeders are in it for the money, AND his admission that he bred his own cavachons with no health testing, among other things.


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

Well the only strong points i saw with linked proof was the last two i just got pointed to, which were hidden in pages upon pages of little stuff like this. Shell and Emmet have now shown me links to find things in all this chaos so now i see the story better. Hard to follow otherwise, it just seems like everyone ganging up on one guy who is flustered and cant give answers. Now i see it is everyone ganging up on one guy that doesnt do good enough background checks and needs to rethink his business and follow the one suggestion i saw of maybe trying to advertise shelter animals or something instead. Which is much more acceptable to gang up on for, so now i can agree that the defendant is guilty of running a bad business. And i can now also see that i apparently am a bad person for living in a nice country setting without toxic pollution fumes and noise...


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> Well the only strong points i saw with linked proof was the last two i just got pointed to, which were hidden in pages upon pages of little stuff like this. Shell and Emmet have now shown me links to find things in all this chaos so now i see the story better. Hard to follow otherwise, it just seems like everyone ganging up on one guy who is flustered and cant give answers. Now i see it is everyone ganging up on one guy that doesnt do good enough background checks and needs to rethink his business and follow the one suggestion i saw of maybe trying to advertise shelter animals or something instead. Which is much more acceptable to gang up on for, so now i can agree that the defendant is guilty of running a bad business. And i can now also see that i apparently am a bad person for living in a nice country setting without toxic pollution fumes and noise...


Your failure to read the posts in the thread thoroughly is no ones fault but your own. The information is all here or linked to from this thread. You just skimmed over it and assumed we were all being horrible and "attacking" the OP and jumped to their defense without understanding the situation. Again that's on you for not bothering to read the information.

It really wouldn't even be ganging up on the OP even if we didn't have all this information about them as they started the thread asking for questions about their business. They simply didn't count on the level of dog savvy from this forum to see through his websites failings.


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## PaddingtonandMe (Oct 17, 2012)

I spent an hour reading it all and saw barrages of unanswered questions, remarks about my hometown, and a few links here and there of hard evidence that took a long time to find until they were pointed out for me. But ive already said that i see it now, its over, thanks for pointing them out to me, now you can take back the attacks on me for my hometown and me coming to the defense of something that looked at first appearance like a ganging up which i have experienced so much i have vowed to help people in need. I said thrice now that im sorry i missed the things, you can please drop it now. Im now anti-Keystone Puppies.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I've had dogs all my life and I've never had health issues and none of the parents had any screenings


I've had teeth all my life, but I'm not a dentist.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Well the only breed I have looked at on the site was ACDs......

That one year health guarantee? Yea Worthless....

Hip Dysplasia - Not likely to rear its ugly head in an ACD before 3-4.
PRCD- 5-6 years
PRCD4 - Oh about 8 years 
PLL- 4-7 years
Elbow dysplasia - 3-4 or later


Some of the puppies have photos of a parent or parents on their page....

The word AWFUL is not good enough....
Incorrect colors, body spots to start with.... And there are reasons for colors and the way they are in ACDs... Body spots happen.... And are not disqualifying. But there are body spots all over these dogs.... Looks to me like they are trying to get full masks....

Then lets see....
1) Bow Legs
2) droopy eye lids are a re occurring them. A cattle dog that cannot see DIES! Not that anyone is going to work these dogs. Droopy eyelids also let dust, dirt and trash in the cunjunctive tissue of the eye. 
3) the angles and how the legs come to the body etc are all wrong. Very straight, no turn of stifle, then about twice the slope of croup.....
) I thought one picture was of a bitch, then I saw the boy hardware.... If it had been a bitch, I would have called it lacking in substance and thin in build. But it is a male.... Frail is more like it. NO substance... Spindley.... AWFUL.....

These are NOT what ACDs should be.... These dogs should be able to stand up to wild woods cattle... The adults on that site, would have a hard time standing up to my wife's 17 year old cat with no claws.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Looked through a few of the breeds,at keystone puppies. Clearly,many of them are poorly bred.There not even close to what I'd called a well-bred, strucally sound dog.

Many of these dogs will have horrific temperment & health problems.

Those Shelties are obviously not strucally sound...


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Now you got me looking into it also..

Keystone puppies

You are selling from a Boxer breeder named Joseph Blank

I googled Joseph Blank...a boxer breeder. whom your selling puppies for. busted puppy mill

and you have the gonads to come on here and call us bullies when your lieing through your teeth. Shame on you. Look at what he did to his dogs. and just to nail the coffin.

Your Joseph blank has the same address as the puppy mill guy so SHAME ON YOU!

The puppy on your website

Address for Joseph Blank breeder in Narvon PA
Joseph Blanks Charges for running a puppy mill with 328 dogs. ( address included surprise! ) 

Shame on you I hope the people on this forum haunt your facebook page. SHAME ON YOU. Your just as bad as the people who torture the dogs.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Ugh, wow... so I looked this guy up. Keystone is not the only company who advertises this awful person.

http://www.greenfieldpuppies.com/boxer-puppies-for-sale-pa-md-de/daphnie/


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Man all this puppy mill stuff sickens me, here in my province they made selling dogs through stores illeagal and put strict restrictions on breeding and its practically eliminated all puppy mills, we still have BYBs and stuff but there's been a huge imptovement


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Ugh, wow... so I looked this guy up. Keystone is not the only company who advertises this awful person.
> 
> http://www.greenfieldpuppies.com/boxer-puppies-for-sale-pa-md-de/daphnie/


The website owner's name for Keystone and Greenfield is the same and the design of the site is nearly identical. It is reasonable to assume it is the same person operating both businesses.


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

The domain names are both owned by the same account that's 100%


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Greenfield puppies got a horde of complaints probably started a new one.

what would happen if we personally sent all their face book friends evidence? They deleted my wall post posting the link of their breeders puppy mill bust  They might be interested to know that all complaints get removed quickly


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I really don't understand this person. The people here are EDUCATED DOG OWNERS. In fact, they help to EDUCATE people on running like hell from websites like these. We're not the uninformed and unaware people you're trying to take advantage of with your website.


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## BasenjiMomma (Feb 4, 2013)

I just wanted you to know, I googled a few of the breeders that you are currently selling puppies for, and they ARE in fact, puppy mills.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

This stuff makes me so sad to live in (and love) PA. We're in a major city, but whenever we drive across the state we go through puppy mill country. There are so many billboards warning about puppy mills in the area. Makes me want to cry.

But on the other hand, I just don't understand people who don't do research when getting a dog. Even from a shelter, research the breeds that are there. But when it comes to going to a breeder... I can't fathom how this seems like a legit course of action. We waited nearly a YEAR to get a puppy from the breeder we went to. One of my friends got a dog from her last year (friend's fiance's stepmother used to breed and show and this is the breeder she sent them to) and we talked over and over with the breeder. Had to fill out applications, to research, read books... I guess that's just too much work for some people, and people like Keystone and their "reputable" breeders fully take advantage of that. 

Sickening.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

It's because people don't like to wait, we are a society on if we want it we can get it right now (ummm....fast food was invented for this exact reason) so keystone takes advantage of that right now attitude. It's all about "I want I want I want" and not about "is it really right for me to have it?". It sucks because people don't care now a days (most people don't but I know there are people like us that do)


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Fade said:


> Greenfield puppies got a horde of complaints probably started a new one.
> 
> what would happen if we personally sent all their face book friends evidence? They deleted my wall post posting the link of their breeders puppy mill bust  They might be interested to know that all complaints get removed quickly


I'd be in doing that.


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## zeronightfarm (Jun 15, 2011)

Only one year health guarantee on bulldog pups. yeah like thats going to do any good. 

If you watch the video, you can see how scared these poor babies are  

http://keystonepuppies.com/puppies/english-bulldog/junior-5


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

zeronightfarm said:


> Only one year health guarantee on bulldog pups. yeah like thats going to do any good.
> 
> If you watch the video, you can see how scared these poor babies are
> 
> http://keystonepuppies.com/puppies/english-bulldog/junior-5


Oh my gosh... that's so sad! Those poor things!


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## Lupen (Jun 17, 2013)

I don't know what's been going on lately around here with this site, but all I've got to say is that any website that sells pups online is quite clearly a BYB or mill, save for pet finder.

Many reputable breeders own websites to share a bit about themselves, their practices and so on, but that's different. Puppy find, this site, etc.... Just best to steer clear of them.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

kcomstoc said:


> It's because people don't like to wait, we are a society on if we want it we can get it right now (ummm....fast food was invented for this exact reason) so keystone takes advantage of that right now attitude. It's all about "I want I want I want" and not about "is it really right for me to have it?". It sucks because people don't care now a days (most people don't but I know there are people like us that do)


I had been planning to get a dog for a few years but when I made the decision to finally it was sudden and a little on the impulsive side... I just knew it was the right time and the right dog and it was a high kill shelter so the next day I found myself driving an hour to get her... And I was right. I don't regret it because my impulsivity saved a shelter dog's life, but even with shelter dogs most people aren't prepared to have a new dog that quickly... I think I'm probably the rare brand who can adjust fast and knows what they're doing and takes the adoption and the lifetime commitment seriously even if it was fast. Most people aren't the same...


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

kcomstoc said:


> It's because people don't like to wait, we are a society on if we want it we can get it right now (ummm....fast food was invented for this exact reason) so keystone takes advantage of that right now attitude. It's all about "I want I want I want" and not about "is it really right for me to have it?". It sucks because people don't care now a days (most people don't but I know there are people like us that do)


For the really impulsive, it's generally far quicker to walk into a city pound and walk out with a puppy or to answer a craigslist ad or newspaper ad or stop by the flea market (another common source of puppy mill puppies). Ordering online takes more effort and a small amount of waiting time arranging for shipment. Obviously less wait time then research and planning for a puppy from a good breeder, but it still isn't completely instant gratification.

Admittedly I decided to get a dog at about 4 pm on a Saturday and brought Chester home at about 6:30 pm  But he was a then one and a half year old dog going stir crazy in a shelter so delaying made no sense at all. Best $1.50 I ever spent!!


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> Best $1.50 I ever spent!!


I wish we had a "like" button!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Shell said:


> For the really impulsive, it's generally far quicker to walk into a city pound and walk out with a puppy or to answer a craigslist ad or newspaper ad or stop by the flea market (another common source of puppy mill puppies). Ordering online takes more effort and a small amount of waiting time arranging for shipment. Obviously less wait time then research and planning for a puppy from a good breeder, but it still isn't completely instant gratification.
> 
> Admittedly I decided to get a dog at about 4 pm on a Saturday and brought Chester home at about 6:30 pm  But he was a then one and a half year old dog going stir crazy in a shelter so delaying made no sense at all. Best $1.50 I ever spent!!


But often, the "I want it now" people are the same ones who want a purebred or designer dog or wouldn't dream of owning a pound puppy.

I sometimes feel as though I was impulsive with Katie (yeah, after waiting 20+ years, trying to adopt for a few months, and then researching breeds and breeders for a few more months). The first breeder we were referred to lost a pregnancy, so I went back to research mode and found Katie's breeder who happened to have an older puppy available. We emailed a few times, spoke on the phone, and ten days later, Katie was ours. Everything seemed to happen so fast.


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## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

Lupen said:


> .... but all I've got to say is that any website that sells pups online is quite clearly a BYB or mill, save for pet finder.


And what about adoptapet.com or petharbor.com?


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## zeronightfarm (Jun 15, 2011)

reynosa_k9's said:


> And what about adoptapet.com or petharbor.com?


They probably didn't know those 2 sites exist. I didn't untill recently I thought petfinder was the only one.


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## Lupen (Jun 17, 2013)

I do know about adoptapet.com, but forgot about it... Haven't been on that site in while . But never heard of petharbor. It's safe to assume though that Im not against sites that advertise shelter dogs and the like.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

cookieface said:


> But often, the "I want it now" people are the same ones who want a purebred or designer dog or wouldn't dream of owning a pound puppy.


I was just noting that there are other ways of getting a poorly breed "AKC registered" dog or designer dog quickly. I could find a puppy "with papers" in a few hours around here.

But oh yeah, I totally see that mindset of impulse buying+ no research + dislike of shelter dogs as broken or bad. My aunt and uncle bought a schnoodle a few years ago online, shipped to them, for like $1000 plus shipping and they were simply amazed that I walked into a shelter and walked out with a dog that is in better health, had better training and better temperament. Their little dog is sweet enough (annoying, very very overweight and untrained, but friendly) but is no different than hundreds of mixed breeds I could have found them on petfinder for $150 or less.


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## BasenjiMomma (Feb 4, 2013)

cookieface said:


> But often, the "I want it now" people are the same ones who want a purebred or designer dog or wouldn't dream of owning a pound puppy.
> 
> I sometimes feel as though I was impulsive with Katie (yeah, after waiting 20+ years, trying to adopt for a few months, and then researching breeds and breeders for a few more months). The first breeder we were referred to lost a pregnancy, so I went back to research mode and found Katie's breeder who happened to have an older puppy available. We emailed a few times, spoke on the phone, and ten days later, Katie was ours. Everything seemed to happen so fast.


I am fairly "I want it nowwwww!!!"

And while I realllly wanted a purebred, I did not wanna wait to get it hehe. I got myself a sweet little mixed breed pound puppy, who is just awesome


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Kayota said:


> I had been planning to get a dog for a few years but when I made the decision to finally it was sudden and a little on the impulsive side... I just knew it was the right time and the right dog and it was a high kill shelter so the next day I found myself driving an hour to get her... And I was right. I don't regret it because my impulsivity saved a shelter dog's life, but even with shelter dogs most people aren't prepared to have a new dog that quickly... I think I'm probably the rare brand who can adjust fast and knows what they're doing and takes the adoption and the lifetime commitment seriously even if it was fast. Most people aren't the same...


Exactly. 

I was not planning on getting a dog last spring, and was already waiting for a puppy to be born. Got a call at 3:00pm when I got out of work saying the dog I was following from Animal Control was going to be pts. I was fully expecting him to be adopted when I put my name on that list, as a just in case. Hadn't thought a second time about it. Well, at 4:30pm when A/C closed that day I had myself a new dog/friend.  And he's been the best impulse decision I've ever made.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

I am sending messages to people who ask about buying a puppy through them.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

PaddingtonandMe said:


> I spent an hour reading it all and saw barrages of unanswered questions, remarks about my hometown, and a few links here and there of hard evidence that took a long time to find until they were pointed out for me. But ive already said that i see it now, its over, thanks for pointing them out to me, now you can take back the attacks on me for my hometown and me coming to the defense of something that looked at first appearance like a ganging up which i have experienced so much i have vowed to help people in need. I said thrice now that im sorry i missed the things, you can please drop it now. Im now anti-Keystone Puppies.


I am sorry that you feel your home town got bashed. I live in a city that is one of the top worst in the country. But that does not mean everyone in it is a bad person. Lancaster PA is a beautiful area. It has problems with some people doing puppy mills in alot of areas around there but thats just those people.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> It is ignorant of anyone to bash a town because some people in it do bad things.


No one "bashed" anyone's town. Lancaster County is well known for having a lot of puppymills. Someone from Lancaster comes on and continuously defends a broker....just trying to understand why....


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

I should have said the owner felt her town was getting bashed. I dont mean to pew pew anyone else I just apologizing that she felt this way. I edited the post so it does not cause any friction. I apologize


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, I have nothing against the actual county, either, and am not bashing the place itself. Puppy mills ARE a huge problem around that area, though, and it was odd for me to see someone from the area (who would certainly be exposed to a lot of anti-mill billboards and stuff) defending a guy who sells dogs from those mills. It seems to be all sorted out now that PaddingtonandMe realizes what the OP is really doing, though.


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

This is all news to me, I didn't know that Pennsylvania is puppy mill central or even that there was a puppy mill central 


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

There are quite a few large Amish communities in PA, and it seems that some of those communities are notorious for mills. I just know that living here (and driving across the state frequently to visit in-laws), you see a lot of info about how horrible we are as a state when it comes to mills. Bits of Ohio, too. It's not exactly something a PA person would brag about, though :/


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Tuco said:


> This is all news to me, I didn't know that Pennsylvania is puppy mill central or even that there was a puppy mill central


Canada has one, too. Quebec is awful for puppy mills.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Tuco said:


> This is all news to me, I didn't know that Pennsylvania is puppy mill central or even that there was a puppy mill central


I think Missouri might be tops for USDA puppymills. The thing about Pennsylvania puppymills is that they're often Amish and so the conditions are generally worse (no AC, no automatic waterers, etc.).


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I was reading that Kansas has a lot of mills as well. We have a huge Menonite population, there is a town close by called Yoder. I would not be surprised at all if there were several puppy mills in that area.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

In defense of my state, PA did pass tougher regulations a few years ago, but I'm not sure the laws are currently enforced effectively.



> In 2008 Pennsylvania enacted the most stringent standards of care in the country for commercial breeders, requiring them to provide dogs with twice the USDA-regulated cage space, constant access to an outdoor exercise run and annual veterinary exams. The Pennsylvania law also prohibits the use of wire flooring and stacking cages on top of one another, both of which are legally permissible under the federal law.


 from ASPCA: Laws That Protect Dogs in Puppy Mills

Dog lovers unleash outrage over changes to Pennsylvania law (2010)

Dogged by laws, kennels closing (2009)

PA Dog Law Enforcement Rolled Back (2012)
Dog breeder for whom PA law was written busted again
 (2013! - apparently there is still some enforcement, but the punishment - $175 fine - certainly doesn't fit the crime)


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

So guess what shows up on my facebook page this morning....an ad for Keystone puppies....:smash:


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Sorry I don't support Puppymills or Brokerage of puppies... no matter what.

I support the local Amish markets & small time farms though...
Great food!


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

So Cavalier said:


> So guess what shows up on my facebook page this morning....an ad for Keystone puppies....:smash:


 LOL they must like you or something  I would be very tempted to throw my computer out the window but we paid money for it......


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

I made another page to post on cause I figured they would try to retaliate in some way lol I sent a lot of messages to people asking about buying puppies from them.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Have you gotten any word back? are the other people's puppies ok?


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

No one said anything to me. They delete any negative feedback. I sent potential buyers messages. With a link to the breeder and said "I just wanted to be a good citizen and let you know that greenfield puppies breeders have been busted for being the most horrible kinds of puppy mills. They started a new website Keystone Puppies because of the bad feedback and backlash. One of their go to boxer breeders is Joseph Blank and his family they run long lane kennels. http://www.nppmwatch.com/NEWS/February07News.html This is news article. I googled random breeders from greenfields website and was shocked to find many of them show up as puppy mills that have a history with the law for severe animal abuse. They are simply lying when they tell you they come from certified breeds." 

I sent to greenfield puppies and keystone puppies users. only did a few. but if we all spent time doing this maybe we could make a difference.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

a nice lady just responded back saying ty and they wouldn't want to pay for a dog from someone like that. Maybe just saved one person! I told her to come to these forums if she is really interested in a dog and the people here are really nice and would help her find a great breeder.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Wow that's awesome  I'm glad that you are getting through to people. I wish they wouldn't delete bad posted just because they expose the truth but that's the reason why they are deleting them (I know this is obvious) I just wish that the people were more respectable  it's sad that they just could not care less where these puppies are coming from and don't care where they go


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Fade said:


> a nice lady just responded back saying ty and they wouldn't want to pay for a dog from someone like that. Maybe just saved one person! I told her to come to these forums if she is really interested in a dog and the people here are really nice and would help her find a great breeder.


Wow, props to you man. 1 less screwed owner


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## ludosmum (Jan 4, 2012)

Puppy mills break my heart. I want to buy all of the puppies to save them from that wretched life, but I have to remind myself that doing so only creates a situation that promotes more puppy mills.

 poor dogs.


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

If I ever win the lottery, or get really loaded..... 


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

The thing is, even if all the dogs currently in mills were rescued (no money went to the mill owners) they would just start up anew tomorrow. The best weapon against these types of places is education for the general public on what to look for, and why these places are so bad. If everyone decided they didn't want to buy from them, they'd stop doing it because it wouldn't be profitable anymore.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> The thing is, even if all the dogs currently in mills were rescued (no money went to the mill owners) they would just start up anew tomorrow. The best weapon against these types of places is education for the general public on what to look for, and why these places are so bad. If everyone decided they didn't want to buy from them, they'd stop doing it because it wouldn't be profitable anymore.


This times infinity


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## Quito (May 3, 2013)

Sorry if this is dead...

I quoted HollowHeaven on their Facebook wall. They deleted it a little while later and the comment box is gone now. :/


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Quito said:


> Sorry if this is dead...
> 
> I quoted HollowHeaven on their Facebook wall. They deleted it a little while later and the comment box is gone now. :/


 Of course they deleted it lol it's something that can lose them business


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I plan to post it myself. Should be cute.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

LOLO
They banned me within seconds.
Classy.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Hollow don't you know that they stand behind their puppies and breeders, that's why you can't post your opinion on there.....LOL!!!! wow glad they don't just delete comments because it goes against them....


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## Quito (May 3, 2013)

I wanna see the guy reply at least once rather than delete everything. uess it won't happen since we're all bullies here who don't love their dogs unless its a show prospect.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Quito said:


> I wanna see the guy reply at least once rather than delete everything. uess it won't happen since we're all bullies here who don't love their dogs unless its a show prospect.


 He had all the time in the world to answer any of our questions and he answered one of them which was a VERY easy question and one that really didn't matter and then said quote "any answer I give won't be good enough" then why did you even post in the first place if you couldn't answer any of our questions


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Heck, he's not banned. He can *still* answer our questions. Will he? I doubt it.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I posted on their wall. Will probably get deleted, but heck, if it deters even one person, then I'm satisfied. 

"This place supports back yard breeding and puppy mills. Buyers beware."


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I think it's the people that legitimately just don't care that bother me the most.

You have some people who were ill informed, misled, got duped, etc. and then regret what they did. I get that, stuff happens.

However, the people who -know- they're dealing with a mill/byb and just don't care because they want a puppy right right now now for cheap just... ugh. I don't know how much can be done to help in those situations. 

I see on kijiji all the time people posting ads that they want an x breed puppy but are only willing/able to pay $100 or only want one for free. Um... what kind of puppy do you think you're getting for only that much?


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I think the saddest part of all this is that the OP knows it's wrong and has probably seen how it's done and still continues to support it. Someone like that has no heart and it'll literally take a miracle for him to open his eyes, mind, and heart.

As for puppy mills in PA, OH, and others, I believe there are puppy mills centrals (as you all call it) in every state. Maybe some are worse than others, but there has to be a large percentage in every state. Now I'm curious about my own state.


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## Quito (May 3, 2013)

^ All of this. It's disturbing on so many levels that someone can be that obsessed over money.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Well the only breed I have looked at on the site was ACDs......
> 
> That one year health guarantee? Yea Worthless....
> 
> ...


Couldn't have said it any better 

Also the TAILS this breed NEEDS their tails to steer & turn & maneuver out of danger!!!

What is sad is Josefina is prolly a product of this type of breeding ... But the huge difference is I got her from a shelter!


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Saw them advertising "mini labs" the other day.
I mentioned something about there being no such thing and about how those dogs would most likely have heart and join issues.
Comment got deleted. Lol


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

This thread is on page one of the Google search results for "Keystone Puppies" now. Hope the OP is happy with all of this free negative publicity.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Saw them advertising "mini labs" the other day.
> I mentioned something about there being no such thing and about how those dogs would most likely have heart and join issues.
> Comment got deleted. Lol


Don't you know?!?!! there are supposed to be mini everything breeds now-a-days. Stupid people, I'm wondering if they are just crossing them with a small breed and just keeping the ones that look like labs so people think they are "mini labs"


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> I think the saddest part of all this is that the OP knows it's wrong and has probably seen how it's done and still continues to support it. Someone like that has no heart and it'll literally take a miracle for him to open his eyes, mind, and heart.
> 
> As for puppy mills in PA, OH, and others, I believe there are puppy mills centrals (as you all call it) in every state. Maybe some are worse than others, but there has to be a large percentage in every state. Now I'm curious about my own state.


There's a table here of state laws:
http://animallaw.info/articles/State Tables/tbuscommercialbreeders.htm

Pennsylvania changed their laws a couple years ago, which should have limited puppymills, but passing a law and enforcing it are two different things. A lot of local law enforcement has bigger problems than dogs, unfortunately, so unless someone files a complaint, not much is likely to get done in a lot of places. Some states have no laws at all, some like my state of Virginia have limits on the number of dogs, etc. It really varies, so you tend to see more mills in states with lax or non-existant laws.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

kcomstoc said:


> Don't you know?!?!! there are supposed to be mini everything breeds now-a-days. Stupid people, I'm wondering if they are just crossing them with a small breed and just keeping the ones that look like labs so people think they are "mini labs"


In the comment I said they're likely either mixed breed or labs bred down.
Good way to cause severe health issues.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> In the comment I said they're likely either mixed breed or labs bred down.
> Good way to cause severe health issues.


 Sorry didn't catch that  def health issues  poor little puppies


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I did one better ... I shared it on my news feed/wall on FB, no way they can deleteit offmy wall


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

"Mini labs" are usually bred with beagle or puggle. I even saw a "breeder" admit it on there site and then still say they are pure bred..people still bought puppies from them. Made me sick.

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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

You know that you don't stand behind your puppies. I bought what was suppose to be a 
ACA Shih Tzu from your site Keystone Puppies and it was a mixed breed . when I told Keystone the dog was mixed because I had It DNA tested he got very nasty. This dog don't even look like a Shih Tzu. you don't stand behind nothing but you going to give me my money back. after I told Keystone it was a mix breed and I had wanted a pure breed to mate he ironically said I can still mate and ACA register this mix breed dog and sell the puppies to people as Registered ACA pure breeds. And to think you advertise the sell of pure breeds you better give me my money back as you policy guaranteed. if I wanted a nice mix breed then I would have went to the local dog pound and got it free. I wouldn't pay550.00. give me my money or I am going to sue you for full damages!


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

angryjustice said:


> You know that you don't stand behind your puppies. I bought what was suppose to be a
> ACA Shih Tzu from your site Keystone Puppies and it was a mixed breed . when I told Keystone the dog was mixed because I had It DNA tested he got very nasty. This dog don't even look like a Shih Tzu. you don't stand behind nothing but you going to give me my money back. after I told Keystone it was a mix breed and I had wanted a pure breed to mate he ironically said I can still mate and ACA register this mix breed dog and sell the puppies to people as Registered ACA pure breeds. And to think you advertise the sell of pure breeds you better give me my money back as you policy guaranteed. if I wanted a nice mix breed then I would have went to the local dog pound and got it free. I wouldn't pay550.00. give me my money or I am going to sue you for full damages!


I honestly doubt the OP of this thread will be responding to you... and I also think you should not be breeding dogs that you buy from pet stores. That's just as wrong as this Keystone company.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just so you know, ACA registration in no way guarantees the dog is purebred. Nor should you be looking for a breeding dog from a website.


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

no you don't stand behind these dogs Keystone Puppies you have not stood behind mine and you advertise ACA Shih Tzu puppies and sold me a mix breed for 550.00 threw your site and then you got real nasty when I asked about your policy guarantee for the dog to be pure breed and my refund. this dog don't even look like a Shih Tzu it looks mixed after getting older. I had this dog DNA tested and the dog is mixed but when I told you at Keystone you said that I still can ACA Register this dogs puppies and sell them to people for pure breeds. the ironic thing is that the breeder in bird in hand pa she said the same thing that I can still ACA register the puppies. what in the world is this company doing I know you better give me my refund or I am going to sue you for full damages and losses.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

angryjustice said:


> no you don't stand behind these dogs Keystone Puppies you have not stood behind mine and you advertise ACA Shih Tzu puppies and sold me a mix breed for 550.00 threw your site and then you got real nasty when I asked about your policy guarantee for the dog to be pure breed and my refund. this dog don't even look like a Shih Tzu it looks mixed after getting older. I had this dog DNA tested and the dog is mixed but when I told you at Keystone you said that I still can ACA Register this dogs puppies and sell them to people for pure breeds. the ironic thing is that the breeder in bird in hand pa she said the same thing that I can still ACA register the puppies. what in the world is this company doing I know you better give me my refund or I am going to sue you for full damages and losses.


What part of the other 2 posters responses to you don't you understand, heck I went into a store that was selling mixed puppies for more than you paid for yours. *AKC * is the governing body for pure bred dogs. Just enjoy and love your puppy and caulk this up to experience.

And I agree about you not breeding the dog.


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

This dog came from the breeder in bird in hand and Keystone advertised the sale and guarantee of this dog. writer these people are going to respond to me here or court but they better give me my money . I bought this dog for pure breed mating. these dogs sell for $500.00 to well over 1,000.00 and I was going to show this dog in pure breed dog shows and now I can not. I also bought this dog for a pure breed pet for my wife now all of this is lost. But its a mix breed pet for my wife and I could have gotten a nice mix breed free from the pound. This was not from a pet store OK! this was from a breeder that keystone advertise and guarantee and both told me I can still ACA breed and register this dogs puppies. They better give me my money.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

ACA is a scam registry, not a reputable one. It'll register a pig as a dog if you pay for it.

Keystone Puppies sucks, as this thread proves, but a pet store or a website is not the place to buy a pet, let alone a breeding dog. If you want to breed, you should find a mentor who breeds responsibly (health tests -- NOT just vet visits, but specialist tests -- and multi-year health guarantees, preferably conformation showing for shih tzus). You should learn as much as you can about the breed and make sure that you're breeding to help improve it, not just to make money. You're in the wrong here, too.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

angryjustice said:


> no you don't stand behind these dogs Keystone Puppies you have not stood behind mine and you advertise ACA Shih Tzu puppies and sold me a mix breed for 550.00 threw your site and then you got real nasty when I asked about your policy guarantee for the dog to be pure breed and my refund. this dog don't even look like a Shih Tzu it looks mixed after getting older. I had this dog DNA tested and the dog is mixed but when I told you at Keystone you said that I still can ACA Register this dogs puppies and sell them to people for pure breeds. the ironic thing is that the breeder in bird in hand pa she said the same thing that I can still ACA register the puppies. what in the world is this company doing I know you better give me my refund or I am going to sue you for full damages and losses.


 First off any person that sells over 2 breeds (and mixed breeds) are not responsible breeders and when you have over 80 different breeds being sold you have a puppy mill (which are places that provide for pet stores *most of the time*) you purchased this puppy so you took the risk. Not saying you shouldn't get a refund but it's like falling for a telemarketer that's a scam you fell for it. You probably won't get your money back and the Keystone person probably isn't going to respond to you. Chalk this up as a loss and a lesson learned and don't irresponsibly breed your dogs. You'll be just as bad as the keystone person


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

Its a racket and they try and charge you for the registration papers extra at the pet store. But if I pay for purebred that is what I want. wouldn't you! no matter how much it is.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Of course it's a racket. These people are in the dog business to make money. They don't care about you, and they don't care about the health or happiness of the dogs they churn out.


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

You live and you learn but right now I want my refund and I am going to get it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You don't breed a dog unless it's breeding quality from a decent breeder who will mentor you in breeding. And you don't show a dog unless it's show quality from a decent breeder who will mentor you in showing (you can't just show up!). And dogs have to be AKC registered to be shown (OK; some exceptions for legitimate alternate registries. But not ACA!). So I don't know what you expected getting a pup from a non-AKC registered litter from that type of breeder. And you don't get dogs free from the pound. Even they have adoption fees. So you've probably come out as well as can be expected. Spay/neuter your pet and have a happy life together. 

You can try contacting a lawyer but I'm pretty sure dog DNA tests won't hold up in court. And you knew the dog wasn't AKC registered when you bought it. So proving wrongdoing in this case could be difficult. You wanted a puppy, they sold you a puppy who wasn't sick when you bought it. Pretty much everything else is on you. If people didn't supprt breeders like this, they wouldn't exist.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

You got an ACA dog, not an AKC dog. It sounds as though you really don't know anything about purebred dogs and were taken. Was Keystone advertising on the AKC breed page or the breed club - probably not. That store I went into had mutt pups for $700 and I'm sure people will pay for them, heck they had a Australian Shepard for $2500 and again I'm sure someone will buy it. I paid $200 for my adopted dog - so dogs are not free.

You want your money back - great, get a lawyer and proceed. Coming to a internet forum and threatening them is not going to get you anything. About the only thing you can do here is warn others not to get taken like you were.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

angryjustice said:


> You live and you learn but right now I want my refund and I am going to get it.


Super unlikely. The business isn't going to just give you one for sure, and you'll spend more in fees if you try to file a claim. I mean, you can if you like, but it'll just be more wasted money.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> The business isn't going to just give you one for sure, and you'll spend more in fees if you try to file a claim. I mean, you can if you like, but it'll just be more wasted money.


Sadly, it is what businesses like this know and thrive on. Again, it is "buyer beware". Far too many people don't know what to look for when getting a purebred puppy. Honestly, since I had always had mixed breed dogs, when I started looking into getting a Cavalier, I really didn't know what I didn't know. I got lucky that I connected with the right people at the right time.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

So Cavalier said:


> Sadly, it is what businesses like this know and thrive on. Again, it is "buyer beware". Far too many people don't know what to look for when getting a purebred puppy. Honestly, since I had always had mixed breed dogs, when I started looking into getting a Cavalier, I really didn't know what I didn't know. I got lucky that I connected with the right people at the right time.


Oh yeah, I remember looking at those sort of sites back before I had any dogs looking for a Dachshund. I thought where ever you get a puppy is one and the same. Even at the time it's complete random luck I ended up looking at Petfinder and just going to a shelter. The education is out there it just seems difficult to get it to the right people when you don't know what you're supposed to be looking for.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Sigh

If you don't have a written contract there is no way you can win in court, not even civil or small claims court.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I mean really, could you even get them for false advertising? They could just claim the breeder told them the dog was purebred and they had NO IDEA that wasn't the case.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Just a thought....Since puppy mills are illegal, is it also illegal to advertise them? Perhaps a complaint could be put in against Keystone (by more than simply those who have been directly impacted by buying a dog there) to have at least their site shut down because they are (obviously knowingly....or are obviously ignoring the possibility) promoting an illegal activity AND making money from it. Heck, it would probably be a federal crime if Keystone is advertising and selling puppies to and from different states (I'm no legal expert, that's just a guess....but wouldn't that create a WONDERFUL legal precedent). 

Maybe complaints could be put in to Google, saying that they are promoting an illegal activity (selling illegal goods perhaps?) and see if they can be blocked from search results. If that can't happen I personally think this thread should be kept going just to keep it at the top of the Google search for Keystone (I'm in for that....heck, make a list of these a$$hats and post them in a designated thread every day maybe mwahahahha). 

I personally find it annoying that Keystone didn't even attempt to answer any questions, not even try. It is true, none of the answers would have been good enough (well, probably not anyway), but seriously, at least PRETEND to defend himself would have been something.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

From the Humane Society of the US

Are there any laws that regulate puppy mills?

In 1966 Congress passed the Animal Welfare Act, which outlines specific minimum standards of care for dogs, cats, and some other kinds of animals bred for commercial resale. But puppy mills that sell dogs directly to the public, including through internet sales, are not regulated by federal law. 

The AWA is enforced by the United States Department of Agriculture. Under the AWA, certain large-scale commercial breeders are required to be licensed and regularly inspected by the USDA. But there are many inefficiencies and loopholes in the system.

Only large-scale commercial facilities that breed or broker animals for resale—to pet stores for example—are required to be licensed and inspected by the USDA because they are considered "wholesale" operations. Those that sell directly to the public—thousands of facilities that breed and sell just as many puppies as their wholesale counterparts—are not required to adhere to the Animal Welfare Act or to any federal humane care standards.

Inspection records obtained by The HSUS show that many USDA-licensed breeders get away with repeated violations of the Animal Welfare Act. These violators are rarely fined and their licenses are rarely suspended. Facilities with long histories of repeated violations for basic care conditions are often allowed to renew their licenses again and again.

For decades, The HSUS has been a leader in promoting legislative and regulatory changes that would address all large-scale breeding facilities. We also continue to encourage better staffing and funding for USDA inspection programs, which would increase enforcement capabilities.

A state by state chart: http://www.humanesociety.org/assets/pdfs/legislation/state_puppy_mill_laws.pdf

It seems as someone said "Buyer Beware".


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Greater Swiss said:


> Just a thought....Since puppy mills are illegal, is it also illegal to advertise them?


Puppy mills generally are not illegal. Searching for government inspection and permit records on a number of the breeders that Keystone et al get the puppies from show that many of the breeders hold permits and have dept. of agriculture inspection records (and sometimes violations).


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

You and your company don't stand behind nothing and you know it because you sold me a mixed breed for a pure breed ACA Shih Tzu and your company told me that I can still ACA register this dog and sell it to people. The breeder Thelma Blank in Bird in Hand Pa. said the same thing for me to breed this dog and ACA register the puppies. You have done nothing but got nasty about my refund. If you done dealt with this company I suggest you get your dog DNA tested like I did. If you have a complaint against this company like I have been reading then file with the BBB on them and Attorney Generals Office. Make people aware of this Company and the wrong things they do with these dogs. I am getting ready to sue you keystone Puppies for full damages and Thelma Blank the breeder. Your not going to just take my money. This is the USA and their are LAWS AGAINST BUISNESSES LIKE YOU AND WHAT YOUR DOING.


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

WHY DONT YOU STOP THAT! YOU DONT STAND BEHIND NOTHING AND YOU KNOW IT! When I asked for my refund for this mix breed dog you sold me for a ACA pure breed, you have not done nothing but got nasty with me, and I am going sue you for full damages. You and the Breeder Thelma Blank from Bird in Hand Pa told me I can still ACA this dog after I told you it was mixed and she breeds dog and you help sell them. you suppose to ship pure breeds all over the country, WHAT! People if you done got a dog from these people then have it DNA tested like I did and if anybody have a complaint then report these people to the BBB and the State Attorney office and make them aware and please make other citizens aware so these people do not get away with what they are doing like what they did to me. This is the USA and there is Laws


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Keystone Puppies: Last Activity 06-21-2013 04:14 PM

They ain't coming back, dude. Getting a mix is the least of one's worries when purchasing from breeders that work with brokers like Keystone.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Keystone Puppies: Last Activity 06-21-2013 04:14 PM
> 
> They ain't coming back, dude. Getting a mix is the least of one's worries when purchasing from breeders that work with brokers like Keystone.


 Plus you were going to breed the dog and make MORE unnecessary badly bred dogs so I don't really feel sorry for you


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Keystone Puppies: Last Activity 06-21-2013 04:14 PM
> 
> They ain't coming back, dude. Getting a mix is the least of one's worries when purchasing from breeders that work with brokers like Keystone.


I think the phrase "Barking up the wrong tree" is particularly appropriate in this case.


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

Keystone is trying not to pay me and they have a Policy Guarantee to guarantee the dog is a pure breed but these people are not trying to honor it they just try and get nasty and think that's going to scare you but they are mistaken because they sold me a mix breed for ACA pure breed and I had it DNA tested and even though the breeder John Blank of Bird in Hand Pa knows the DNA is accurate they still have not refunded my money. so now I have reported them to the BBB and State Attorney Office and is getting ready to sue them for full damages. These people have no intension of just giving me my money refund so I just have to press charges against them. They are not going to just take my money. These people is suppose to be shipping all over the country what is suppose to be pure breed so lets see what the State Attorney General has to say about this. You can include false advertisement with all the other violations they did in your suit.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

angryjustice said:


> Keystone is trying not to pay me and they have a Policy Guarantee to guarantee the dog is a pure breed but these people are not trying to honor it they just try and get nasty and think that's going to scare you but they are mistaken because they sold me a mix breed for ACA pure breed and I had it DNA tested and even though the breeder John Blank of Bird in Hand Pa knows the DNA is accurate they still have not refunded my money. so now I have reported them to the BBB and State Attorney Office and is getting ready to sue them for full damages. These people have no intension of just giving me my money refund so I just have to press charges against them. They are not going to just take my money. These people is suppose to be shipping all over the country what is suppose to be pure breed so lets see what the State Attorney General has to say about this. You can include false advertisement with all the other violations they did in your suit.


Since you're obviously not getting the hint:

If you want to sue them, sue them. But this thread isn't going to do ANYTHING to help you. Nada. Nothing. Jack. 

You didn't do your research at all. You bought a badly bred pup with the intention of breeding more badly bred dogs which would have a high chance of ending up with health problems (not to mention ending up in shelters) so you aren't going to get much sympathy here.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Shell said:


> You didn't do your research at all. You bought a badly bred pup with the intention of breeding more badly bred dogs which would have a high chance of ending up with health problems (not to mention ending up in shelters) so you aren't going to get much sympathy here.


My thoughts exactly.


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

They might not be coming back but Im not going no where we will see what the state attorney office has to say about it and the BBB and this is just a start until I get my refund


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

some people are just miserable ha ha no body asked for your sympathy ha ha you do you and I will do me ha ha


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

I think I already responded to this hater ha ha


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

That's all fine and dandy, but if they don't come back here, they won't see what you're saying, and therefore your posting in this thread isn't going to affect them at all. It's great to warn other people, but anything else is just plain venting. Which is fine in itself, I guess. Everybody's gotta vent sometimes . Just so that you understand that the Keystone people aren't seeing what you're posting here.

Also, I think you're responding to individual posts without quoting them. Which looks really disconnected and doesn't make any sense to those who don't know which post you're responding to. If you want to quote an individual post, click on "reply with quote" instead of just "reply".


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

hater ha ha miserable ha ha


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

They aint got to come back because im coming at them im going to get my refund. Its sad when you give info to help people and they hate but that's what haters do


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

I did not ask for your sympathy frankly I wouldn't care what you think ha ha and I hope that made your day


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## angryjustice (Sep 2, 2013)

Making people aware is what matters and to inform each other. Also you don't know what Keystone does so to say they don't see what people are commenting on here or any where and your not there is just an opinion not fact but if you want to believe that it is ok to. But I am the wrong person to not talk facts to. Thanks anyway


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Do your research people 

Make sure the breeder wealth tests, "clean lines" is not only a lie, but it also doesnt count


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

I took 5 min of my life to look up their breeders names and have it come up with one abuse case after another. They have already faced the law. Its not about making people aware of this puppy broker but making people aware that they should only buy dogs from respectable breeders. And learn what that means. As angry as you are "angryjustice" you should know already that this broker sells for breeders that had kennels shut down and has been prosecuted for extreme animal abuse. and they are still up and running. Spend this time to learn what you could have done differently. Like looking for a reputable health checked breeder. What makes a good breeder? What makes a dog worth breeding? What is a heath checking? Stuff like that...Its annoying paying for something you did not get but I have seen for mix breed dogs go for more then the puppies they sell on that site. You pay a lot for a truly well bred dog. I hope you take this as a learning experience and use it to better your knowledge of purchasing a dog in the future. Not only did you not get a pure bred dog but your probably got a inbred dog... that will have a horde of health issues...that parents been bred over and over and over again probably to some of its own litter mates. 










If you read the charges against some of these breeders it builds a picture of the type of puppy mill they run. the pretty dogs in the cute bows with the flowers probably come from conditions similar to this...


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## Charles Barkley (Apr 14, 2013)

Wow reading this and how many times this person is repeating themselves and all for $550 that is cheap for a dog even a mix breed if your getting them as a puppy still... 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Personally, I think this person should get a high priced lawyer and go after Keystone. May not win but then he could complain on a lawyer forum about money he/she spent ...


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I thought doggy DNA tests were notoriously unreliable, anyway? Have they gotten better?


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## beardiedawg (Apr 16, 2012)

I'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish here. You have told us the same story over and over. Perhaps you should post it on the facebook page of Keystone Puppies.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Well, at least keeping this thread lively keeps it high on Google for "Keystone Puppies." Right now, if you search Keystone Puppies, there are plenty of puppy mill warnings, ours included, on the first page.

Nevermind, it's one of the other Keystone Puppies threads on this forum. Still...


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## zack (May 27, 2013)

Reading some of these posts on puppy mills is breaking my heart how can people be so cruel to defenceless puppies, I know I have a pedigree dog but we bought him not for a status symbol but because we love the breed. I would never buy a puppy from a pet shop or from the internet. such a sad world we live in. lol.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Effisia said:


> I thought doggy DNA tests were notoriously unreliable, anyway? Have they gotten better?


From what I understand, they are NEVER accurate for a full breed dog. The results will always come back as a mix. 

There is not a GSD gene, and a schnauzer gene, and a lab gene, etc. The testing company looks at certain genetic markers that are common in certain breeds, and have created their own breakdown of what is most likely, based on the tested dog's genetic markers.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

The one time that DNA testing is accurate is if they have DNA from both parents, they can prove who the parents are. Even if the female was bred by two different males, they can tell which male is father of which pups. As far as proving what breed they are, they are not accurate at all. With a mixed breed your guess is probably almost as close by just looking at the dog.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Speaking of litters with different fathers, you reminded me... Today at the event I attended there was a litter of 8 puppies for adoption... Half of them screamed Beagle and I thought they were pure beagle... the other half were twice the size, white and fluffy and resembled Pyrenees mixes... The mother looked like a hound/pit thing... The pups were all from the same mother. I was very amused.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Thought this thread could use a bump. need to keep bashing this place!


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I agree it should stay up at the top so people can read this and find out the truth


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Found this informative facebook post

https://www.facebook.com/NYSCitizensAgainstPuppyMills/posts/452072581566972

I was banned from greenfield puppies FB page after asking about t heir health testing =-x


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Fade said:


> Thought this thread could use a bump. need to keep bashing this place!


Everyone should know the truth behind Keystone Puppies,& all of the other breeders like this.The more people informed the better,having less people support breeders such as keystone puppies. Causing these breeders to lose profit,& hopefully they stop breeding.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JazzyTheSiberian said:


> Everyone should know the truth behind Keystone Puppies,& all of the other breeders like this.The more people informed the better,having less people support breeders such as keystone puppies. Causing these breeders to lose profit,& hopefully they stop breeding.


I hope for the day when that happens. when the only ones breeding are the good, responsible breeders.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

WARNING GRAPHIC WILL MAKE YOU CRY VIDEO

Do you think that the Blank family selling dogs in PA could be related to this Blank family selling dogs in PA? Keystone sells for the Blank family.

Kennel owned by John Blank puppy mill bust


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I can't see the video, though I don't know if I want to or not


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I've seen that episode so many times.. it's awful.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they were connected, I'm willing to bet they probably are.


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