# Pregnancy question...A bit worried



## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

My female Miniature Pinscher was artificially inseminated on the 10th of August, as well as the 12th. That was the last attempt. Since that time, I have been monitoring her, and set up an appointment with the vet. She was taken to the vet yesterday afternoon for a pregnancy test to detect "relaxin". Apparently, as told to me by the vet, two lines were present first, and it looked like it was developing into a positive result. However, the second line faded, leaving a negative result for relaxin. 

This was confusing considering I palpated her prior, and felt two grape size (approximately) lumps. I asked if she could be palpated, regardless of the negative result. The vet found the same thing. Two lumps. She stated to me that it could be 3 things. The test could have presented a false negative result, they are lymph nodes, or it could be the start of pyometra. She has no history of this whatsoever, has always been healthy, etc. Her temperature was taken by the vet and she does not have a fever.

I suspected pregnancy walking in as her appetite has changed (although she did eat quite a bit today thankfully), a bit more breast tissue has formed underneath the nipples, her vulva was still swollen after coming out of heat, the lumps, but she is also drinking more water than usual. She is not lethargic, dehydrated, no diarrhea, no abnormal discharge, no odd smells, etc. The vet instructed me to set up an appointment for an x-ray, 17 days from now, which I did. However, does pyometra seem likely? This worries me quite a bit. I assumed the lumps were the planned for pups. Other than the two "nodules", her uterus seems normal, not abnormally enlarged or anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Talk to your vet!!!! 

Talk to your mentor!!! 

Don't come to an internet bulletin board where you don't know anyone and don't have a clue asking for advice about breeding a toy breed that should not have been bred when you clearly don't have a clue what you are doing.... 

its irresponsible.....


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## Mach1girl (Apr 17, 2006)

Call your vet or another vet and ask your questions. At almost 30 days you shouldnt really be able to feel anything palpating her yet.

Call your vet.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Mach1girl said:


> Call your vet or another vet and ask your questions. At almost 30 days you shouldnt really be able to feel anything palpating her yet.
> 
> Call your vet.


Well Stef, 

you are wrong yet again.... 

an experienced person absolutely can palpate at that age between 26 and 30 days and feel the sacks depending on the breed .... if you wait more than 30 days you can't feel them through palpation....

"Pregnancy Determination in the Bitch
Jeanette L. Floss
University of Missouri College of Veterinary Medicine


Embryonic vesicles can be felt as early as 20 days after ovulation. Usually evenly spaced within the uterus, these spherical swellings contain the developing embryos with their associated membranes and fluids. By 20 days after ovulation, the vesicles are approximately 1 centimeter in diameter. They are more easily identified in animals that are relaxed and are not overweight. Embryonic vesicles will increase in size until 32 to 34 days after ovulation, when they are no longer identifiable as individual swellings."


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## Mach1girl (Apr 17, 2006)

Shalva said:


> Well Stef,
> 
> you are wrong yet again....
> 
> an experienced person absolutely can palpate at that age between 26 and 30 days and feel the sacks depending on the breed .... if you wait more than 30 days you can't feel them through palpation....


*Ok, Mods!!!Are we gonna let this keep going on?*Seriously, this is like the 6th post or so IN A ROW that she has followed me to try and insult me in front of everyone-
At 28 days, the uterous can be palpated by a PROFESSIONAL, and with a little luck, because it is a toy breed-the pups will feel like little tiny pencil erasers-A professional-which, the OP has clearly proved that she is probably not, considering her question.

THEN if indeed they can be felt this way, it will only last for a day or two, then become almost impossible to feel again.

So, if she is feeling nodules, the size she is explaining, she is not palpating right, and/or the palpation is not able to pick up the pups as of yet.


Your veterinarian can palpate the abdomen of your bitch to see if she is pregnant. Many bitches will feel “fuller” in the abdomen, or sometimes the uterus itself can be palpated. A couple weeks into the pregnancy, the uterus in medium to large breed dogs is the same consistency and size of a garden hose; *in toy breeds, it is the size and consistency of a pencil*. However, just because the uterus is swollen and tense does not always mean that the female is pregnant. 

Later, around day 28 of pregnancy, the uterus will feel like it is full of hard-boiled eggs—one for each puppy. But it only feels like this for about a day or two, and then more fluid is layed in the placenta making palpation more difficult. Late in pregnancy when the bones of the puppies are hard, palpation becomes easier again.

Call your vet, and call another one if you have to. From experience, I have never felt the pups at 30 days.


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## mylittlebecky (May 27, 2008)

shalva's post is before yours- just saying.

(an experienced person does not have to be a professional- she said the DVM felt the same thing she was feeling and gave her possible explanations)


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

I resent the statement regarding not knowing what I am doing. That is completely false. I am not looking for information regarding breeding. I clearly stated that I have not used the relaxin test before (therefore I don't know how accurate it could be and if it could present a false negative), but I am not looking for advice on breeding. I was looking for an answer to my question, which it quite obviously was not answered. However, I am going to speak with my vet. If i've been talking with my vet regarding this prior, obviously I am keeping her updated. 

This is my first time asking such a question on a dog forum. I usually have no need to do so, but I figured I could get a little insight from people that have experienced something like this before, or that are experienced in the palpation of a pyometra early on. I am not trying to diagnose this myself, just wanted an answer as regardless, she will be evaluated for a pyometra.



Mach1girl said:


> *Ok, Mods!!!Are we gonna let this keep going on?*Seriously, this is like the 6th post or so IN A ROW that she has followed me to try and insult me in front of everyone-
> At 28 days, the uterous can be palpated by a PROFESSIONAL, and with a little luck, because it is a toy breed-the pups will feel like little tiny pencil erasers-A professional-which, the OP has clearly proved that she is probably not, considering her question.
> 
> THEN if indeed they can be felt this way, it will only last for a day or two, then become almost impossible to feel again.
> ...


Thank you. I appreciate it. I personally have felt pups at 30 days (or a bit sooner, around day 25) in other situations, but because of the negative relaxin test, i'm worried. I will probably go on with the full blown ultrasound which can detect either a pregnancy, or a fluid filled uterus.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Well you can resent it all you want but coming to an internet forum for medical advice about a bitch in whelp is INSANE at best irresponsible at worst ..... 

you dont know anyone heres qualifications to give medical advice.... you should have your ducks in a row before you do a breeding..... 

not to mention making your dog prove they are worth being bred..... I am sure that this girl is a finished Champion and titled right???? she has all of her health clearances ???? 

doubtful..... 

because responsible breeders don't come to the internet for breeding advice. 
s


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Mach1girl said:


> *Ok, Mods!!!Are we gonna let this keep going on?*Seriously, this is like the 6th post or so IN A ROW that she has followed me to try and insult me in front of everyone-
> At 28 days, the uterous can be palpated by a PROFESSIONAL, and with a little luck, because it is a toy breed-the pups will feel like little tiny pencil erasers-A professional-which, the OP has clearly proved that she is probably not, considering her question.
> 
> THEN if indeed they can be felt this way, it will only last for a day or two, then become almost impossible to feel again.
> ...


You know what Mach... you really need to get over yourself. Thinking that Shalva is "following" you around... why dont you search and read around the forum... you will see that she doesnt just comment to certain ppl this way... she comments to all careless ppl this way. Your not as special as you think. This is just getting childish Mach.

As for the OP, talk to your mentor about this... and truth be told... reputable breeders DO NOT come on internet forums to ask for help on whelping... sigh... will this ever end?
Nessa


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

Shalva said:


> Well you can resent it all you want but coming to an internet forum for medical advice about a bitch in whelp is INSANE at best irresponsible at worst .....
> 
> you dont know anyone heres qualifications to give medical advice.... you should have your ducks in a row before you do a breeding.....
> 
> ...


It's quite alright. That is your opinion regarding me and the way I go about things. As stated, posting on an internet forum is a first for me in this department. I also stated I was not looking for an internet diagnosis, but simply an answer to my question. This question was posted at approximately 3am my time. Obviously, my vet clinic was not open. Is it not normal to ask a question based on the experiences of others with the relaxin test? I suppose it is not.

I also did have all of my ducks in a row. This breeding was planned out long before she even went into heat. The stud was chosen, whom lived in another state. Yes, she has all of her health clearances. She had a thorough vet check, tested for Brucellosis (as was the stud), she is OFA certified, etc. She is not a titled champion, however she is show quality with excellent lines, 5 generation pedigree, only without the cropped ears. That was a preference of mine. So you may judge me based on my previous posts, however you have no knowledge whatsoever of my breeding practices (which are rare), nor my bitch.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

munchycrunchy said:


> I also did have all of my ducks in a row. This breeding was planned out long before she even went into heat. The stud was chosen, whom lived in another state. Yes, she has all of her health clearances. She had a thorough vet check, tested for Brucellosis (as was the stud), she is OFA certified, etc. She is not a titled champion, however she is show quality with excellent lines, 5 generation pedigree, only without the cropped ears. That was a preference of mine. So you may judge me based on my previous posts, however you have no knowledge whatsoever of my breeding practices (which are rare), nor my bitch.


she isn't finished, she doesn't have any titles.... so just another backyard breeder...... 

just what the world needs. 
s


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

Shalva said:


> she isn't finished, she doesn't have any titles.... so just another backyard breeder......
> 
> just what the world needs.
> s


So because I do not show her, i'm not a reputable breeder? As I said, she is show quality, however does not have cropped ears. I opted out of having that done. I suppose one can't be a reputable breeder without a champion dog, right? Regardless of whether or not the dog is show quality, free from genetic defects, excellent lineage, healthy specimen, spay/neuter contract on pups, 2 year health guarantee, all possible vaccinations and a full health examination, etc? Oi...Do you even know the apparent differences between a backyard breeder and a reputable breeder?

Surely you are quick to judge someone a backyard breeder based on YOUR standards. I suppose it doesn't make a difference that before the breeding takes place, the pups already have homes lined up and the new owners have been fully screened prior? Backyard breeders breed for profit, something that I do not do. Sure, I do not show my female. Does that make me a backyard breeder based on the opinions of the MAJORITY, not just one person? No it does not. You are entitled to your opinion, however you certainly do not speak for the majority. Many prospective buyers do not know the difference, however I know that I do everything necessary to ensure excellent quality pups, healthy pups, excellent temperament, conformation, etc. So...speak for yourself, not on the behalf of everyone and act as though your opinion is the end all and be all regarding whether I am reputable or not.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> You know what Mach... you really need to get over yourself. Thinking that Shalva is "following" you around... why dont you search and read around the forum... you will see that she doesnt just comment to certain ppl this way... she comments to all careless ppl this way. Your not as special as you think. This is just getting childish Mach.
> 
> As for the OP, talk to your mentor about this... and truth be told... reputable breeders DO NOT come on internet forums to ask for help on whelping... sigh... will this ever end?
> Nessa


I agree with Nessa on this one.... Shalva doesn't let people have it unless they deserve it. Just because som'one has opposing facts, and opinions doesn't mean they are out to get you.

To the OP.... i think part of the issue is that this was your first post... it makes it look like you are looking for a quick fix/diagnosis/don't know what your doing/ whatever....

If we knew you longer/better i don't think people would be so quick to jump on you, but all we know about you is you joined to ask a medical question, right off the bat. 
That said, i hope this doesn't scare you away.


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> I agree with Nessa on this one.... Shalva doesn't let people have it unless they deserve it. Just because som'one has opposing facts, and opinions doesn't mean they are out to get you.
> 
> To the OP.... i think part of the issue is that this was your first post... it makes it look like you are looking for a quick fix/diagnosis/don't know what your doing/ whatever....
> 
> ...


I am definitely not looking for a quick fix. I know how serious medical issues are and any diagnosis is to be made by a veterinarian. My experience will not scare me away. It is understandable as there are many people that do ask such questions looking for a diagnosis because they cannot afford vet care, or simply want the opinion of another individual to set their mind at ease, when they don't know exactly what is going on with their animal.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

As a moderator I can tell you that we actively close threads of people who sign up and ask a health question in their first post, if they have not taken the dog to a vet and gotten treatment. We are all about helping others who may have received the same diagnosis. But we really discourage emergent health problems, home remedies, and purely opinions not based on examination. And breeding / whelping problems always invite a wide array of opinions and comments. How you word your post may also invite a wide range of responses. (I might have started this thread asking about members' experiences with relaxin testing, validity, specificity vs do you think she's pregnant or does she have pyometra...for example) Please remember that if you post on this forum you are basically asking for an opinion...and you will get them.

Bottom line...welcome to the forum. But do some reading around here, find out the hot topics, learn to choose your words carefully, and have a thick skin.


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Shalva said:


> she isn't finished, she doesn't have any titles.... so just another backyard breeder......
> 
> just what the world needs.
> s



Oh. Come on. That is such utter CARP. The dog isn't titled - forget that she has health clearences, and that it's blatantly obvious the OP did not just stick two dogs together because they were the same breed. I'm not familiar with any BYBs who are willing to do AI or are so educated in regards to not only the terminology of breeding, but also to ask specifically about pyo. She has not, in any of her posts, given any hint of being irresponsible. Just a novice, which everyone was once. 

What I really take offense with is the condescending attitude that if it isn't show quality or doesn't have a title, it's not breed worthy  It's admirable to do so, but to label a breeder a BYB because they have not titled the dog is just so purely nonsensical. What is a title? I am going for a U-CD title with one of my keeper pups because it's a goal I set for myself, because both I and the pup would enjoy it. Titles don't prove anything about breed worthiness; all they prove is that the owner had the time and money to buy that title. Letters on paper. You have someone who is doing the health testing and you slap the BYB label on her? Wow. That is just amazing. You know nothing of this dog or it's pedigree or of the breeder's goals (and btw, she shouldn't have to be questioned about her goals because of asking a ? on pyo). It's ridiculous. I can't just say nothing when someone obviosuly a novice but very willing to learn gets treated like a second class breeder becuase they don't live up to the standards of a few on the internet who actually buy into the elitest definition of a responsible breeder. 

BTW, to answer the OP's question - no, this is probably not pyo if the breeding took. With pyometra, you'll see (or rather, smell) a foul reddish discharge and will usually notice other signs of infection such as going off feed & fever. Do NOT place too much stock in pregnancy tests. They are not the be all and end all - and I just don't even bother doing them anymore. IMHO, the best thing woul dbe to monitor her daily for unusual discharge, but continue to treat her as though she was in fact in whelp. You can sometimes feel embryos after palpation around 20 days, but be careful, because they can sometimes detach from the uterine wall if palpated too hard, too early. Again, no fever, very uinlikely there is pyo. I've had some bad experiences with Vets lately, so the first thing that comes to mind is that this Vet is trying to milk you for all you're worth ... I just do not understand why pyo or other infection would even be suggested in the first place!!! Lumps are NOT a symptom of infection. 

So that's just what I would do. Carefully monitor her for discharge and just take her to another Vet in a week or so for another palpation/second opinion.


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

UrbanBeagles said:


> Oh. Come on. That is such utter CARP. The dog isn't titled - forget that she has health clearences, and that it's blatantly obvious the OP did not just stick two dogs together because they were the same breed. I'm not familiar with any BYBs who are willing to do AI or are so educated in regards to not only the terminology of breeding, but also to ask specifically about pyo. She has not, in any of her posts, given any hint of being irresponsible. Just a novice, which everyone was once.
> 
> What I really take offense with is the condescending attitude that if it isn't show quality or doesn't have a title, it's not breed worthy  It's admirable to do so, but to label a breeder a BYB because they have not titled the dog is just so purely nonsensical. What is a title? I am going for a U-CD title with one of my keeper pups because it's a goal I set for myself, because both I and the pup would enjoy it. Titles don't prove anything about breed worthiness; all they prove is that the owner had the time and money to buy that title. Letters on paper. You have someone who is doing the health testing and you slap the BYB label on her? Wow. That is just amazing. You know nothing of this dog or it's pedigree or of the breeder's goals (and btw, she shouldn't have to be questioned about her goals because of asking a ? on pyo). It's ridiculous. I can't just say nothing when someone obviosuly a novice but very willing to learn gets treated like a second class breeder becuase they don't live up to the standards of a few on the internet who actually buy into the elitest definition of a responsible breeder.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I appreciate that. My female definitely is show quality, other than the uncropped ears which are preferable. It is stated by the AKC that if the ears are not cropped or the tail docked (she does have a docked tail), then there is a severe penalty. So while they may be entered, it is doubtful that they would take the win. Leaving her ears uncropped was a preference of mine. I prefer the natural ears to cropped.

I certainly would not breed without being ready, or using a bitch or stud that I did not think was top quality. I have worked in rescue and the majority of my dogs in the past (and currently) have been rescues, therefore I always ensure the proper homes are lined up before hand. I suppose my question was worded in such a way that it would seem as though I don't know what i'm doing when in fact, I do. However, even after I explained, I was criticised. That's unfortunate. 

She is being thoroughly monitored. Her temperature is 100.2 degrees, so she is normal in that department and not running a fever. She is not drinking excessively, or abnormally urinating. I contacted the veterinarian today to give her an update. She also did eat quite a bit today, and I know that anorexia is a sign of pyo. She also does not have abnormal discharge. I am keeping a very watchful eye on her for any changes in her behavior, her eating and drinking habits, etc. As for the palpation, I have made sure to be very gentle when doing so. It's much easier with her than with others as she is totally relaxed and does not tense up. I will be taking her in for a second opinion shortly. I appreciate your response.



briteday said:


> As a moderator I can tell you that we actively close threads of people who sign up and ask a health question in their first post, if they have not taken the dog to a vet and gotten treatment. We are all about helping others who may have received the same diagnosis. But we really discourage emergent health problems, home remedies, and purely opinions not based on examination. And breeding / whelping problems always invite a wide array of opinions and comments. How you word your post may also invite a wide range of responses. (I might have started this thread asking about members' experiences with relaxin testing, validity, specificity vs do you think she's pregnant or does she have pyometra...for example) Please remember that if you post on this forum you are basically asking for an opinion...and you will get them.
> 
> Bottom line...welcome to the forum. But do some reading around here, find out the hot topics, learn to choose your words carefully, and have a thick skin.



That is very understandable. Thank you for the information. I could have worded my post differently, so it didn't sound quite so much like I was looking for a diagnosis, rather than seeking veterinary care, or that I am an irresponsible breeder.


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## mylittlebecky (May 27, 2008)

urbanbeagles- just for your information (and in case you or others aren't aware), a dog can also have a "closed pyometra" with no discharge whatsoever. these are often life threatening and hard to detect until it turns into an emergency. i agree with the spike in temperature indicating possible issues, but it's not foolproof. a radiograph is usually required (which it sounds like is going to happen later)

also you said "CARP" instead of crap and that made me laugh- even if it was unintentional - just a funny coincidence

(i'll just be switzerland in regards to the whole discussion about byb... i think it's great that health testing is being done! a big step in the right direction. do i think it's better than a lot of other alternatives? yes! does that make it the best possible situation? no. ... there are also 3-4 million dogs euthanized each year and i PERSONALLY feel as if i could never breed dogs just for fun with nothing else involved- what's the point really? i honestly don't know.... ok maybe switzerland with an opinion)


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## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> urbanbeagles- just for your information (and in case you or others aren't aware), a dog can also have a "closed pyometra" with no discharge whatsoever. these are often life threatening and hard to detect until it turns into an emergency. i agree with the spike in temperature indicating possible issues, but it's not foolproof. a radiograph is usually required (which it sounds like is going to happen later)



I am well aware of closed pyometra, in which there will be virtually no specific symptoms, yet there will still be general symptoms such as fever, lethargy, going off feed. THe OP mentioned this dog had a blood test and no fever. White blood cell count would be through the roof with either pyo. It also does sound as though the bitch is in fact in whelp, and the chance of pyo in a bred bitch is virtually non existant. It's only when the dog goes through a heat and is not bred or a breeding doesn't take that pyometra will emerge (if bacteria has entered in through the vulva, that is). 





> also you said "CARP" instead of crap and that made me laugh- even if it was unintentional - just a funny coincidence



LOL, no that was intentional  


> there are also 3-4 million dogs euthanized each year and i PERSONALLY feel as if i could never breed dogs just for fun with nothing else involved- what's the point really? i honestly don't know.... ok maybe switzerland with an opinion)



Some of us work with our dogs - the yare used for an actual purpose, and I am sorry to offend anyone, but the vast majority of shelter dogs I have come across (yup, I volunteered for and worked for two shelters for 4 years) were grossly unsuited for real work. Grossly. I know that some service dog trainers will get dogs from the shelter, as will the Beagle Brigade, but they have rigorous testing and go through numerous dogs before choosing one. It's not practical for someone who relies on workig dogs to go to the shelter and go through the whole rigamarole of sorting through dogs when they can just breed for or purchase purebreds whose instincts are so strong it just comes naturally. 

I also do not believe that shelter dogs have anything to do with breeding purebred dogs. It's not everyone that wants a large adult mutt. Especially families with kids, many of them want to go through a breeder with a fine tooth comb to pick & choose a breeder that socialized extensively. Many shelter dogs are undersocialized, and have missed out on critical windows of socialization that CLOSED for good after the pup was 10-12 weeks old. You cannot make up for the bad experiences or lack of experiences those dogs have had with adult socializing. Many people who would go to the shelter I worked at would always comment how abused the dogs must have been, they were so scared and skittish and hand shy. No. Not abused. Worse. They had zero socialization. Espacially at the no kill shelter I worked for there were numerous dogs who needed to take a dirt nap but were adopted out. The dogs that are euthanized is not something nice, or that doesn't turn the stomach of any normal person. But it's necessary, because there are always going to be animals with unstable, dangerous temperaments or health problems regardless of whether or not they were bred by humans. Any good breeder takes back or helps their pups find a new home should the need arise. Oh, I've seen purebreds in shelters, but NEVER one that looked remotely well bred. 

We have a dog from the pound. A 7yo mutt. He was an incredable load of baggage and after hundreds of hours of trainign & socialization, is still not even close to 100%. If any of my Beagles had his chronic health problems, poor coat & unstable temperament, they would NEVER have made it into the breeding program. Ever. It's just not possible for a randomly bred mutt to have the same level of socialization or health screening and forethought into the litter than a well bred purebred. Not possible. My 15 week old pup came from a dam who was hunted with during her pregnancy, fed the best foods and supplements, she underwent early neurological stimulation for the first 3 weeks of her life, was handled and held and coddled from the second she came into this earth. When her ears and eyes opened she had both the auditory stimulation of music and visual stimulation of toys, new environments, etc. The litter was venturing into the yard and feeling different surfaces, grass, fresh air under their feet @ 4 weeks. They were weaned onto fresh meat and oats. They got to interact with other dogs, kids, family members, neighbors by 6 weeks. They were learning commands and could sit & come by 8 weeks. My keeper pup has been to Manhattan twice, seen the sights, smells, crowds, noise. She's gone to her first obedience class last week and met even more dogs. She's goten accustomed to the car and subway. She walks well on leash (well, for a pup, lol) and is the calmest, most mature pup in her class. She will be introduced to tame hare in the coming week, and will get to chase some bunnies for fun in the coming month. If she does well with that, I'll start running her with my older hounds, then she can run with the pack if all goes well by the end of this season. Compare those experiences to the interaction and socialization a shelter or pet store dog has had in the same time period and it's crystal clear why I and many others would much rather go to a reputable breeder.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

munchycrunchy said:


> My female Miniature Pinscher was artificially inseminated on the 10th of August, as well as the 12th. That was the last attempt. Since that time, I have been monitoring her, and set up an appointment with the vet. She was taken to the vet yesterday afternoon for a pregnancy test to detect "relaxin". Apparently, as told to me by the vet, two lines were present first, and it looked like it was developing into a positive result. However, the second line faded, leaving a negative result for relaxin.
> 
> This was confusing considering I palpated her prior, and felt two grape size (approximately) lumps. I asked if she could be palpated, regardless of the negative result. The vet found the same thing. Two lumps. She stated to me that it could be 3 things. The test could have presented a false negative result, they are lymph nodes, or it could be the start of pyometra. She has no history of this whatsoever, has always been healthy, etc. Her temperature was taken by the vet and she does not have a fever.
> 
> I suspected pregnancy walking in as her appetite has changed (although she did eat quite a bit today thankfully), a bit more breast tissue has formed underneath the nipples, her vulva was still swollen after coming out of heat, the lumps, but she is also drinking more water than usual. She is not lethargic, dehydrated, no diarrhea, no abnormal discharge, no odd smells, etc. The vet instructed me to set up an appointment for an x-ray, 17 days from now, which I did. However, does pyometra seem likely? This worries me quite a bit. I assumed the lumps were the planned for pups. Other than the two "nodules", her uterus seems normal, not abnormally enlarged or anything. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


 did you pull progesterone before breeding her?? those relaxin tests can show neg or very weak positive if you do them too early I would redo the test in another week .they usually don;t start showing until after 5 weeks though


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## mylittlebecky (May 27, 2008)

urbanbeagles- as far as a WBC count- i don't see anywhere on the OPs post that says anything about a CBC. my understanding was that they did a relaxin test only.

alls i'm saying is that IF she's not pregnant and since the veterinarian brought up the possibility of a pyometra.... a normal temperature and no anorexia does not a definitive diagnosis make.


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

mylittlebecky said:


> urbanbeagles- just for your information (and in case you or others aren't aware), a dog can also have a "closed pyometra" with no discharge whatsoever. these are often life threatening and hard to detect until it turns into an emergency. i agree with the spike in temperature indicating possible issues, but it's not foolproof. a radiograph is usually required (which it sounds like is going to happen later)
> 
> also you said "CARP" instead of crap and that made me laugh- even if it was unintentional - just a funny coincidence
> 
> (i'll just be switzerland in regards to the whole discussion about byb... i think it's great that health testing is being done! a big step in the right direction. do i think it's better than a lot of other alternatives? yes! does that make it the best possible situation? no. ... there are also 3-4 million dogs euthanized each year and i PERSONALLY feel as if i could never breed dogs just for fun with nothing else involved- what's the point really? i honestly don't know.... ok maybe switzerland with an opinion)


She isn't exhibiting any classic signs of open or closed pyometra. I am going to get a second opinion via palpation (many vets in my area do not perform the relaxin test), and she will have the radiograph done on the 24th. An x-ray was not recommended sooner as if the test did present a false negative result and she is in fact pregnant, the radiation could harm the pups. Still no temperature spike, nor excessive drinking, urination, anorexia, etc. However, she is still being closely monitored. It is better to be safe than sorry in these situations.

I don't breed excessively. I am a hobby breeder. The screened owners specifically were looking for a Miniature Pinscher of excellent quality. The overpopulation problem is devastating, and I certainly would not bring more pups into this world without going about it in the proper fashion, and ensuring they would be placed in a stable, experienced, and lasting environment. Those that do not pass my screening process (specifically for the Miniature Pinscher breed and their experience with the breed) are pointed to the nearest shelter or rescue organization. While the Min Pin is a toy breed, they certainly are not for everyone. So while I most certainly feel for shelter and rescue animals and their unfortunate and devastating fate, there are still some people that would prefer a reputable breeder to a rescue animal.



[email protected] said:


> did you pull progesterone before breeding her?? those relaxin tests can show neg or very weak positive if you do them too early I would redo the test in another week .they usually don;t start showing until after 5 weeks though


One of the veterinarians suggested coming back in a week or so for a relaxin test. However, my regular veterinarian recommended I wait and go for the x-ray as regardless of the outcome of the test, a radiograph will be done. But, I think I will leave her advice in this case and get bloodwork done, as well as a second relaxin test. It is possible that if she is having a very small litter (such as 2 pups or so), her hormones aren't/weren't at their peak creating a false negative.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

but did you pull progesterone before doing the AI ?? was it shipped semen ??


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> but did you pull progesterone before doing the AI ?? was it shipped semen ??


Yes. On the 10th of August, after keeping a close eye on her heat, she was taken to the vet to pull progesterone. Rather than waiting a day, Kitty (my vet) came in and informed me that it would be best to start the insemination while she was present at the office because of her levels. The semen was not shipped. The male was picked up in Georgia and brought down for the insemination. The owner of the stud was also present at the time. She was inseminated for the first time on the 10th and the last time on the 12th.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

what was the number on your progesterone?? did you run more than one?


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> what was the number on your progesterone?? did you run more than one?


Progesterone was pulled once. If I recall correctly, progesterone levels were at 6ng/ml.

EDIT: A vaginal swab was also taken, and she was presented as being at 90%.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

vaginal swabs are generally not reliable ..it would have been better if you had pulled one prior to it being over 5 but if you bred one and three days after that your probably fine I'm sure they did a sperm check on the male right??

was it a conventional AI??


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> vaginal swabs are generally not reliable ..it would have been better if you had pulled one prior to it being over 5 but if you bred one and three days after that your probably fine I'm sure they did a sperm check on the male right??


Yes. A sperm count was performed on the male. This, as well as the test for Brucellosis was done prior to picking him up for the insemination.

EDIT: Yes. It was a conventional artificial insemination.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

you don't need brucellois for AI? is your Vet a repro Vet?? so they pulled the progesterone and sent it to antech or they had in house?? I use the transcervical AI its better than the conventional more precise..try not to worry I make myself crazy sometimes too wondering if they are or aren't heres..... a video of one I just had the transcervical done on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsq5m5ZJ0qM


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> you don't need brucellois for AI? is your Vet a repro Vet?? so they pulled the progesterone and sent it to antech or they had in house?? I use the transcervical AI its better than the conventional more precise..try not to worry I make myself crazy sometimes too wondering if they are or aren't heres..... a video of one I just had the transcervical done on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsq5m5ZJ0qM


The stud in previous cases was not manually stimulated for AI and natural mating occurred, therefore a Brucellosis test was done prior. I prefer AI to natural mating personally, so we went with the AI rather than the natural method. The progesterone was in house, it was not sent out. Also, the video was very interesting and educational. The transcervical was not mentioned. Only the surgical approach, and the conventional.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

well they have to have an endoscope for the transcervical but its better than surgical since no anesthesia is required.I would rerun the relaxin I used to run them myself since you can buy them online but they would not show up well much before 30-35 days regardless of what it said on the package.


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> well they have to have an endoscope for the transcervical but its better than surgical since no anesthesia is required.I would rerun the relaxin I used to run them myself since you can buy them online but they would not show up well much before 30-35 days regardless of what it said on the package.


Thank you for the information. I will do just that. I've read about false negative results, and one has occurred at my particular vets office before, so I will get another one done. 

I was completely against the surgical AI. I didn't want to put her through unnecessary surgery, when there were other ways of artificially inseminating, hence the conventional method being used.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

the surgical is really very minor surgery and helpful in cases where you need to vizulize the uterus ,your Vet must be a repro specialist if they have in house progesterone,its not Leigh Mcbride is it?? I would not worry you have done everything you can .let me know what happens!

do they just let people send you nasty anonymous messages on here?? this was left on my messages '''Great lets just become backyard breeder central and give all the information so she can become a better irresponsible breeder'''' how do you know shes an iresponsible breeder?? doesn;t sound like it to me.


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> the surgical is really very minor surgery and helpful in cases where you need to vizulize the uterus ,your Vet must be a repro specialist if they have in house progesterone,its not Leigh Mcbride is it?? I would not worry you have done everything you can .let me know what happens!
> 
> do they just let people send you nasty anonymous messages on here?? this was left on my messages '''Great lets just become backyard breeder central and give all the information so she can become a better irresponsible breeder'''' how do you know shes an iresponsible breeder?? doesn;t sound like it to me.


No. It's not Leigh McBride. I'm kind of a worry wart, so any type of surgery always gets blown out of proportion with me. 

As for the message, i'm pretty astounded that I am being labeled as a backyard breeder when it's quite apparent that I am concerned for the safety of the pups, the bitch, and ensuring that all avenues are covered, such as with genetic testing. I am very knowledgeable on breeding and what can go wrong. I was simply asking a question (perhaps worded improperly) regarding the relaxin test, which this is my first time using after it being recommended to me. I am NOT in it for the money at all, and as stated numerous times before, she IS of show quality. I have worked in rescue and foster, so there is absolutely no way I would bring more pups into this world in an irresponsible and foolish manner. The message was anonymous, but from the first response I received to this post, i've got a pretty good idea of who it was that sent it.

None of the things I have done would label me a backyard breeder by any stretch of the imagination. When comparing a backyard breeder to a reputable breeder, I certainly do not fit into the former, but the latter. I am not irresponsible. I have the best interest of the bitch at heart, as well as the potential pups. Backyard breeders couldn't care less. They cut numerous corners (such as health certificates, wormings, vaccinations, etc.) and no genetic testing is done. I believe I have expressed quite clearly that I am not an irresponsible or backyard breeder. Interesting that they neglected to post that message on my actual thread. Instead, deciding to anonymously send it to a friendly and helpful poster, judging me based on no empirical evidence.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

munchycrunchy said:


> An x-ray was not recommended sooner as if the test did present a false negative result and she is in fact pregnant, the radiation could harm the pups.


Just as a side note. An x-ray at this stage of the game would be useless in determining pregnancy, as the bones in the fetuses do not begin to calcify until 43-45 days after ovulation. You might be able to see an enlarged uterus, but not by much and that is what a pyo x-ray looks like, so not much help at this point.

http://extension.missouri.edu/xplor/agguides/pets/g09923.htm










Also, we had a bitch develop pyo 6 weeks after delivering her litter. She had SIPS which led to an open pyo. No fever, no lethargy, was eating fine. Some discharge is still normal at that point, but we felt that something was "off," so we took her in and her WBC was very, very high. We've also had a bitch have a pyo in one uterine horn while she was in standing heat in the other uterine horn. I'd never rule out pyo just because it seems to be an odd time for it to occur (and those are the only two pyos we've ever had in our girls).

Your situation, however, does not sound like pyo. The Relaxin test is not foolproof, and if I were you I'd plan for her to be pregnant and deliver her litter and would take an x-ray at day 55-58 to make sure.


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

wabanafcr said:


> Just as a side note. An x-ray at this stage of the game would be useless in determining pregnancy, as the bones in the fetuses do not begin to calcify until 43-45 days after ovulation. You might be able to see an enlarged uterus, but not by much and that is what a pyo x-ray looks like, so not much help at this point.
> 
> http://extension.missouri.edu/xplor/agguides/pets/g09923.htm
> 
> ...


I think the x-ray statement I made was a bit misconstrued. I understand that the bones have no calcified, therefore could not determine a pregnancy at this stage. However, if the x-ray were taken specifically for pyometra at this stage and she did not have it and in fact is pregnant (not showing up on the x-ray yet) it could harm the pups. I apologize if I still didn't word it in the correct manner.

This will be my females last litter. This has been planned out and I decided after this breeding, she will be retired and spayed. I have personally never experienced a pyo, thankfully. I am planning on her pregnancy. She is gradually being placed on a high quality puppy food, although she's tending to be a bit picky about what she will eat, so plain yogurt or cottage cheese is occasionally also mixed with her kibble. The x-ray is scheduled via appointment. However to be on the safe side, I am monitoring her and if there are any abnormalities, she will be going to the vet again, prior to the appointment. Thank you for your response!


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

Just an update for those that are interested. I set up an appointment for her at the vet for tomorrow at 3:30pm. Another relaxin test will be performed. She will be far enough along that if a negative is presented, chances are she is not pregnant. If that is the case, I will ask for a recommendation from my veterinarian as to whether to go ahead with the x-ray, or have bloodwork done to analyze her white blood cell count.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

oh great at least you will know for sure..if you really think it might have a pyo though I have no idea why people were saying that,they will not have normal bloodwork with that..


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> oh great at least you will know for sure..if you really think it might have a pyo though I have no idea why people were saying that,they will not have normal bloodwork with that..


My vet didn't seem concerned in regards to pyo, hence not immediately ordering an ultrasound or something of that nature. She was most likely just covering all basis and naming possibilities. However, rather than wait the 17 days just to have a radiograph done, i'd prefer to cover all basis as well and specifically rule out pyo as a possibility. I'm just a worry wart and the slightest mention of something unappealing will cause me to go off the hinges and dwell until I drive myself bonkers. Once this is all completed, I will post with what was found, the results of the relaxin test, and whether she had an x-ray or bloodwork, depending on the recommendations of my vet.


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

I just got back from the vet. The second relaxin test came back a negative. She is not in whelp. Because of this, a thorough health examination was performed. Her temp was taken, and she is normal. She was palpated and the nodules are not palpable any longer. They stated that her uterus feels normal and by this time, "water knots" would be felt.

They did state that a UTI is a possibility. They didn't advise the bloodwork, nor the x-ray just yet. I was sent home with Clavamox which I am to give her twice a day for 14 days, and monitor her temp as well as behavior. They stated that chances are, it is not a pyo. Other than the finnicky eating habits, she has no signs or any reason to be concerned about pyometra. 

Because I was going to retire her after this planned for litter and I am more concerned for what is in HER best interest, she will be spayed shortly. Most likely after the course of antibiotics. So it is unlikely that she will be having anymore pups due to this decision.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

munchycrunchy said:


> I prefer AI to natural mating personally, so we went with the AI rather than the natural method.


Just out of curiosity why do you prefer AI over the natural method if the natural is an option?


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

a lot of people with expensive stud dogs only use AI I have several generations of Labradors who are the result if AI ,I think partly they do not want to risk the dog getting mycoplasm or something


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## munchycrunchy (Sep 8, 2008)

animalcraker said:


> Just out of curiosity why do you prefer AI over the natural method if the natural is an option?


Using AI minimizes the risk of injury to both the male and female upon a tie taking place. I also always choose a male that is somewhat smaller than the female. This makes the whelping process easier for the bitch. It is not always possible for a smaller male to reach the female. The difference isn't vast, however depending on his technique, the rear legs, the size of the member, and how much the female is willing to help him mount, sometimes the AI is just a better fit. With my experience in both natural and AI, I have a preference for the insemination. Not only because it minimizes risks, but until now it has been fairly successful.


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## Hound (May 20, 2009)

There are several signs that you should watch out to tell if your dog is pregnant such decreased appetite,nipple growth and other behavioral changes. There are also factors to consider to make sure that your dog’s pregnancy is safe. The progression of these signs is instrumental in ensuring the healthy growth of the puppy. Given your current dog’s pregnancy problem, the next time should tell you not to depend on observations but check regularly with the vet.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Dude, this thread is from last year. Why reply to it?


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## CorgiKarma (Feb 10, 2009)

It seems like A LOT of old threads are being responded to lately...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm locing it so it ca nsettle back to the bottom where it belongs


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