# Parvo Questions



## Angela (Aug 21, 2010)

I just got my new pup (she is 8 weeks old today) and she is my first dog. The breeder I got her from cautioned me to be VERY careful about parvo. Basically stating I can let her poop / pee in a small area in my backyard but to not take her to any pet store or dog park or around any other dogs at all until 3-5 days after the last shot. 

I took Sophie (my soft coated wheaten) to the vet today for her 1st exam. Everything was fine and the vet said I can enroll her in puppy training class at PetSmart after the 2nd round of Parvo / Distemper, she will be 11 weeks at that time. Is that too early to take my dog to puppy training class? I am so freaked out about this. When I called PetSmart they said the only requirement for puppies to enroll is rabies. 

Also, I live in a condo, so my backyard is not fenced in, and people are out walking their dogs all the time around where I live. Truly I am freaked out about her being in my backyard, but she loves to be out there. Prior to getting her, I had never heard about this disease. Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks,
Angela


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## LDMomma (Jul 19, 2010)

The issue with Parvo is that the mothers antibodies (in the puppy) wear off at some point. Up until then, they fight off the virus and any vaccine. So, it's not known which shot will be the one that provides immunity. 

I will not let puppies down until after the last shot at the pet store or dog parks. We do take our new puppy to a local church (grass parking lot) so she can run as we do not have a backyard. My puppy have had two sets of shots now. We will enroll her in a puppy class after the 3rd set.


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## Noobcakes (Jul 23, 2010)

question, sorry to hijack a little, what if the never got their mom's antibodies? Does she have to wait longer?


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## Angela (Aug 21, 2010)

Does anybody have the link to the website that shows the incidence and prevalence of Parvo by region? 

I was just reading something online that mentioned raccoons and parvo? UGH, I know there are raccoons around my complex. I live in Northville, MI. 

I only grew my grass last summer, I bought new dirt and planted grass seed. I really think it's unlikely that too many dogs have pooped on my lawn. It's mostly transmitted in poop right? If that's true then I can understand why the vet would allow her to start puppy class after the 2nd shot. As long as they bleach the floor area and bleach if a dog poops? I am probably going to set back the class just because I want to be proactive about keeping Sophie safe (she is the love of my life!). But I am really curious as to why the vet would say that it's okay to take her to puppy class at PetSmart. Do I need to go to a new vet? I didn't let her down at the vet, and I would think PetSmart would be the most dangerous place for transmission. 

At the dog park in Northville, they won't even let you take your dog to the park until she's fully vaccinated. 

Thanks!


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## LDMomma (Jul 19, 2010)

I don't have a chart for the prevalence. 

Parvo is an extremely hearty virus. It can live off a host for up to two years. It can be transmitte don your shoes, car tires, anything really. PetSmart does not bleach the floor every time a dog poops. The owners are the ones that typically clean up accidents and well you know how that goes. It can be brought into the store on peoples shoes, the cart wheels, anything really.

It's up to you if you want to do the training or not.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

You can call your local vets and ask them if they've had lots of cases of parvo in your area, or they may be able to direct you to a website. Maybe try the local veterinary medical association?

Now. I am a firm believer in prevention for puppies. But prevention means prevention of behaviour issues as well, and socialization is prevention for future temperament/behaviour issues. There needs to be a balance between the risk of disease and the risk of a dangerously fearful dog.

I know in my neighbourhood that dog owners for the most part are very responsible, dogs are usually on leash, usually well cared for/vaccinated and that parvo is rare. So I have no problem telling people to take their pups out, sticking to the less dogtravelled areas (no parks or fave potty spots) and doing their necessary socialization with the world. So alot can depend on the local dog culture. What is your area like?

Most pups, if their mother was healthy and fully vaccinated and the pup is healthy, can do basic socialization with dogs that are puppy safe and healthy. So if you know any one who has dogs like this you can arrange visits or playdates to work on dog socialization. For the world, at eight weeks you CAN take him out, carry him if necessary and introduce him to people, places and things. It is very very important that pup gets positive experiences with as many different kinds of people (tall, short, young and old, people of different ethnicities, bearded, umbrella's, wheelchairs etc) to develop a sense of confidence in the world.

As for training. I'm not a fan of the big box stores, both for sanitary reasons and the quality of the training (as it varies greatly). Puppy classes do accept young pups (some as young as nine weeks) so it's important to find one where they sanitize well and focus mostly on socialization and very basic manners and use positive reinforcement only. If PetSmart is your only option locally I would start with the basic training at home (see www.dragonflyllama.com "training levels") and do the puppy classes at 12 weeks or so. Keep in mind that your puppies socialization window only lasts until about 4 1/2 months, so puppy playdates and dog socials are important if you wait to start classes.

Raccoons: distemper is a bigger risk with raccoons, but they are everywhere so you can only avoid so much. You can ask your local animal control regarding distemper outbreaks in your area.

Again, it is important to be aware of the risks, but keeping your pup out of the world can have long term consequences.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Ditto - Cracker....

If you trust your vet... then I would trust his advice ... you can always call him for suggestions about PetsMart and Parvo/distemper. If Parvo/distemper are not common in your area, your Vet may see that socialization is worth the risk.

I agree that PetsMart training is inconsistent, but you get contact with other owners, as well as some initial socialization... and you can meet with these people after classes and on the weekend for socialization and play


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## Angela (Aug 21, 2010)

Thank you for the good advice!

I spoke with a friend today who has been raising leader dogs for the blind and disabled in my city for over 40 years. I asked her about Parvo in our area and she said that she has never known anyone (and she is very active in the dog community) whose puppy got Parvo. She obviously recommended not taking Sophie to dog parks, stores, or anywhere a lot of dogs walk / poop. But she also told me to relax -- and that as long as I'm mindful and responsible that Sophie should be fine. 

And the condos where I live require all dogs be vaccined and walked on a leash, and everyone here is responsible and keeps their dogs up to date. I feel much better now 

It's only been 4 days since Sophie has been home with me but I am already so attached and in love. I've had a lot of friends and family visit to meet her and she lets everyone hold her and pet her and she is very friendly and playful. My mom is already getting her to sit and shake and I'm amazed at how well the house breaking is going. 

Thanks again! 
Angela


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Terrific ! Now you have a wonderful opportunity to keep improving her training. 
1. She will start nipping in a few weeks. Read the Sticky: The Bite Stops here, about Bite Inhibition.
2. Search the Forum for Positive Training methods and books. Ian Dunbar is always good. I also like "Calming Signals" topics.
3. Teach her to Come, and to walk next to you all over the house, make it a game.
4. The Come Game: Two of you in a long hallway; first you call her and reward, then the other person calls,and reward. Repeat for about 10 minutes, or until her energy flags. Add minor distractions.
5. Teach her to look at you when you say her name: Make a noise and when she looks at you, say her name and give a treat.
Repeat for 5 - 10 min. When she focuses on the treat, hold it between your eyes, so that she looks at you. Then move it and say her name. Treat when she looks at you, not at the treat.

In about two weeks, she will start to explore, so get as much training started now. Be patient, because you can train lots now, but it can take two years to train for distractions.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Anyone with a puppy under 12 weeks should be very careful about Parvo virus and other communicable diseases such as Distemper as well.

Parvo is called a "ubiquitous virus" because essentially it's everywhere. I'm not sure where you live, but I am in NC in the US, and there are cases here year round.

I understand Cracker's concerns about socialization, and they are valid. However, I have experience, unfortunately, with Parvo virus. 

I use the following protocols when I have puppies under 12 weeks, and until puppies have received their 3rd vaccine, at least one of which is after 12 weeks:

Puppies do not touch grass. They stay on solid surfaces which I can disinfect.
Shoes are disinfected before entering my house or grounds. I keep a spray bottle of 1/20 bleach at doors and gates. Shoe bottoms and hands are sprayed before entering.
I do not attend dog events with any of my dogs until a puppy can be reasonably expected to have immunity. 
I socialize puppies carefully in the homes of friends who do not have any dogs under 6 months of age. I CARRY the puppy in and out of my vehicle.

This might seem extreme, unless you have watched very sick puppies and prayed for their survival. After that it doesn't seem extreme at all.

I know it's blunt, and I know I've said it before but I'll say it again one more time: It's pretty hard to socialize a dead puppy.

VERY good luck with yours, and please post pictures.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Red, I think you and I are essentially saying the same thing only in different degrees. Of course, being a breeder you have a potential time bomb if you get parvo in your area, given large amounts of puppies and adult dogs that show and compete.
Socialize in home or at the homes of adult, healthy, puppy safe dogs.
Carry pup when outside.
Stay away from grassy areas and dog heavy areas.
Etc.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Cracker said:


> Red, I think you and I are essentially saying the same thing only in different degrees. Of course, being a breeder you have a potential time bomb if you get parvo in your area, given large amounts of puppies and adult dogs that show and compete.
> Socialize in home or at the homes of adult, healthy, puppy safe dogs.
> Carry pup when outside.
> Stay away from grassy areas and dog heavy areas.
> ...


Most definitely.


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## Angela (Aug 21, 2010)

I rescheduled the training. They offered a class that starts 5 days after her 3rd shot, so she will be 14 weeks rather than 11. I feel much better about that decision. In the meantime I am making sure to socialize her with people and focus on her training. There are also a few "safe" dogs that I will allow her to be around. I've been able to calm myself down on the worry because she is consistantly having good bowels and I'm not changing anything in her environment (where she is allowed to go). Thanks for the help


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## 5 s corral (Dec 31, 2007)

red 
you are so right i work at a shelter in ny and we see a lot of parvo its alful 
i am so careful when i come home nouthing comes into the house 
jamie


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Not to scare the OP, but Angela I'm glad your waiting till Sophie is 14 weeks to start at Petsmart. When I worked for them I cleaned the "Training area" More often then the trainers themselves did. Infact I was told by one of the trainers at my store that the "Training area dosn't get cleaned at all if I'm not there" How we escaped Parvo or other issues stemming from our store I'll never know.


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## Mrs.K (Aug 28, 2010)

I can only shake my head when i read stuff like that. 

How comes that in the US Parvo is such a huge thing. 

We've had it once and pretty much lost a litter because the animal shelter illegally brought dogs from eastern country to Germany and they had Parvo.
Not knowing what was going on, we dragged it into the house. Back then I was a teenager and it was the most horrific thing I've seen in my life to see puppies die from parvo. 

Ever since then we've never had it again and our puppies are allowed to play in the grass as soon as they are old enough. However, before that they are always in a clean area that also can be disinfected but we haven't had a litter in a while though. 

Reading all these Parvo stories from the US and knowing that a fellow Army spouse had a dog dying from Parvo worries me to no end. Heck, some Germans don't even believe me that we have had parvo cases on post and that I it made me sick to my stomache because I had a 10 week old puppy at home. They thought I was joking because we barely have parvo cases, if we have them at all, over here. 

I don't know if it is a cultural difference that people just don't care to get their dogs vaccinated or that to a lot of military families pets are simply disposable and if it dies, just get another one, if it doesn't fit the lifestyle just get rid of it and buy a new one. PCS coming up? Dump it either at the local shelter, sell it and get another one at the new duty station... 

My vet even told me to give my dogs heartworm de-wormer because they get in contact with American dogs. Mind you, I never, ever had to de-worm a dog for heartworms and sometimes I wished that the customs would do their jobs and check the dogs through or keep them a couple of weeks under quarantine before they can pick them up, just like England does it. 

Sorry, didn't want to steal the topic. 


Anyhow, as for socialization. If you want to bring your dog to the dog park ever, wait until the dog is at least a year old. 

Why? Because everything is a huge impression while they are puppies. The first time I actually heard from dog parks is when I moved on post with my husband and in all the time I live here I went there four times and each time I was reminded why I don't want to bring my dogs to the dog park. 

1. people do not re-call their dogs so you can safely enter
2. people barely have their dogs under control and call them 20 times and the dog could care less
3. people let them do whatever they want to do and I have yet to see somebody that interferes.
4. too many dogs that either have aggression issues, too many kids and babies (I've seen dogs jumping into strollers), too many irresponsible parents that let their two year olds walk right into the midle of a running bunch of dogs and guess who is getting sued over when the baby gets knocked over by a dog?
5. it's just not worth it. There may be great parks out there but the once I've seen are clearly not the ones you want to use. 

Some other members already said it and it can't be stressed enough. Only socialize in a controlled manner. Both dogs on the leash and under control. Only use dogs that you know and want your dogs around. If you can, take your dog anywhere you can. Over here in Germany it's easy because you actually can take your dogs anywhere unless it has a sign in the window that says that dogs are not allowed. If that is not the case you can take them in so I took my puppy literally everywhere:

-to my favorite Bar
-favorite Restaurant
- the city hall to pick up my pass port
-Beer Gardens
-Festivals, Fairs, Horse Competitions
-on the train
-on the bus
-Malls
-Shoe Store
-many clothing stores such as H&M, Esprit
-Home Decoration stores
-To sightseeing tours

Literally everywhere. Always take poop bags with you. I once had none with me and my puppy pooped right into the middle of the pedestrian street and I had to go into a store, get a bag and pick it up before somebody could throw a fit. 

As for training your puppy, this is the right time to get your puppy conditioned on the clicker. I can highly suggest the clicker on puppies and for future training. The clicker is the best tool I have ever come across. Especially puppies learn rapidly and super-fast with the clicker. You can even use the clicker to housebreak your puppy. 

Good luck and have fun with your new pup.


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## Noobcakes (Jul 23, 2010)

I got a question. My uncle has a 5 year old lab, is it okay to let my pup socialize with him? the lab is walked frequently is that a problem? When my pup was a month old we spent a month at a aunts house where she has 6 dogs, is that a good start for her? or does she not remember what happened a month ago ?


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## Mrs.K (Aug 28, 2010)

Noobcakes said:


> I got a question. My uncle has a 5 year old lab, is it okay to let my pup socialize with him? the lab is walked frequently is that a problem? When my pup was a month old we spent a month at a aunts house where she has 6 dogs, is that a good start for her? or does she not remember what happened a month ago ?


Noobcake. Did you just say that your puppy was a month old when you spend a month at your aunts house for a month?

HOW old was the puppy when you first got it? A puppy should at least be eight weeks old before you seperate it from the mother dog.

What exactly happened at your aunts place that you ask if she will remember what happened there.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have not heard of any Parvo in our area but on the news the other morning they said there was a very bad type of Parvo showing up on Vancouver Island. So far an older dog and a puppy have died. The Vet said they went downhill and died very fast from it. Hopefully it does not move to the Lower Mainland. At least with school starting up, people won't be travelling as much and it maybe won't get spread as far.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Ask the Vet about Parvo, if that's the issue. Each region has different exposure. In general, it is usually OK to socialize with a dog of known health. However, there is the possibility of tracking in infected material.... In my area, in Texas, my Vet said there was no problem with a healthy dog (therefore I am overly paranoid to worry about these things).

The other issue about remembering - your pup would remember, but you want to continue socializing for the life of the dog.


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## Noobcakes (Jul 23, 2010)

Mrs.K said:


> Noobcake. Did you just say that your puppy was a month old when you spend a month at your aunts house for a month?


Yes.



Mrs.K said:


> HOW old was the puppy when you first got it? A puppy should at least be eight weeks old before you seperate it from the mother dog.


I got my puppy when it was five hours old. Her mom was chased away while giving birth, and abandoned her and her sister in front of my neighbor's house. After, I realized she wasn't coming back, I took in both of them, but my puppy's sister died. 



Mrs.K said:


> What exactly happened at your aunts place that you ask if she will remember what happened there.


Nothing. She spent all day with dogs and cats. I just wanted to know if that was a good thing. She got a long great with another puppy but he was way older like 10 months. All the others were adults. 1 cocker spaniel, 1 cocker/boxer mix, 2 lhasa apso, 1 mutt, and a toy poodle. She did great with all of them. And she would sleep with the kittens, since my aunt's cat had just giving birth to kittens.


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## Mrs.K (Aug 28, 2010)

Noobcakes said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, sounds like everything worked out perfectly for the puppy. 

I applaud you for taking the puppies in, I am sorry the other one died but it looks like you are doing a great job in raising the one that survived.


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## Noobcakes (Jul 23, 2010)

Thanks  Yeah she's gotten huge! In 3 months, she went from being the size of the palm of my hand to so a big pup


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