# Defanging or euthanasia



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

So, if a cat won't stop scratching, and the choice is either declawing or being euthanized, the cat is usually declawed. What if you have a similar problem with a dog. If you can't get a dog to stop biting, instead of euthanizing should you defang him? And this is removing all the teeth. A friend at school told me about how someone did this to their dog because they didnt want to put him to sleep.

And I can't make up my mind if I would agree or not. What do you guys think of this?


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I'd never remove any of my dogs' teeth if it wasn't for medical reasons. That's insane. But I also don't declaw any of my cats.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I would never remove my dogs teeth, that is really insane. I have several rescue cats, actually three of the four cats "came" declawed--prior to that I had two dearly departed cats I had declawed because our first cat picked all our new furniture down to bear wood--our now Alfie does rip apart one chair in particular but otherwise is not really destructive--I actually don't see a comparison between declawing and defanging domestic animals---teeth are needed, on totally indoor cats claws are not really needed although I do considerr it inhumane

euthanasia is also not an option in the case, putting the dog up for adoption is what is necessary if the owner cannot handle it

I have a ten year old cat that just started pooping out of the litter box (not urine thank goodness) my husband wants to put her down, i refuse--I bought a huge cage hangout for her when I can't watch her but she is still my responsibility---would you do that to a family member?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I am just so curious about this from some of you other cat lovers. Why do you think it is so cruel to remove claws on a cat? I am not asking to be attacked just educated. What is the big deal? I have a cat that was declawed when I got her. She has no claws at all. She certainly does not seem to be any worse for the wear. She was going to be euthanized and I happened to be there. If she had not been declawed on all 4 I don't think I would have taken her because I am not really a cat person, or wasn't until she needed a home. She is a great cat, but I would not have chanced it. I am glad I gave her that chance. She is an amazing cat even with no claws.


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## Billiie (Jan 16, 2008)

Inga said:


> I am just so curious about this from some of you other cat lovers. Why do you think it is so cruel to remove claws on a cat? I am not asking to be attacked just educated. What is the big deal? I have a cat that was declawed when I got her. She has no claws at all. She certainly does not seem to be any worse for the wear. She was going to be euthanized and I happened to be there. If she had not been declawed on all 4 I don't think I would have taken her because I am not really a cat person, or wasn't until she needed a home. She is a great cat, but I would not have chanced it. I am glad I gave her that chance. She is an amazing cat even with no claws.


I want to know this too. I have a cat, love her dearly, but she has all her claws because she is an indoor/outdoor cat. But I don't see why it is inhumane to declaw them. If they're an inside cat, then I think it is fine.. unless they are allowed outside, then I understand.


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## katthevamp (Aug 7, 2007)

So, how exactly will a dog eat with no teeth?

In both cases, it should be trained ro handed to seomone who can do it, not killed.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Three of my four cats were adopted by us and treated like kings/queens (one is now 15)--I would have never adopted them if they weren't declawed


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

The problem with declawing is that it's an amputation of the last digit of the paws. I used to declaw my cats until I learned that. I thought they just took the claws.

On the other hand, the cats DO get used to it and, to my mind, it's better to declaw than euthanize. But it's better not to declaw. There are other options these days, like claw covers and such.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Inga said:


> I am just so curious about this from some of you other cat lovers. Why do you think it is so cruel to remove claws on a cat? I am not asking to be attacked just educated. What is the big deal? I have a cat that was declawed when I got her. She has no claws at all. She certainly does not seem to be any worse for the wear. She was going to be euthanized and I happened to be there. If she had not been declawed on all 4 I don't think I would have taken her because I am not really a cat person, or wasn't until she needed a home. She is a great cat, but I would not have chanced it. I am glad I gave her that chance. She is an amazing cat even with no claws.


I have 2 8 month old kittens that I had declawed at the same time they were spayed and neutered. They came from some people that kept rescuing cats and it just got really out of hand. They needed a home. I live on a semi-busy street, so I didn't want them to be outside cats. However, they picked apart my comfotor in a matter of days, were hanging off the curtains, and tore some 600 thread count Egyptian cotton sheets so badly they had to be thrown away. And yes, I tried all tactics to get them to stop. I think I made the best decision for our family and would do it again. Honestly, it seemed that the spaying/neutering was harder on them than the declawing, and nobody considers that inhumane. Plus, there was no extra surgery since we had it done when we had them altered. I took extra special care with their litter- no litter, newspapers. The male wouldn't use it and peed on a tshirt of my hubby's for about a week, but it was my decision not his to do that for him so I just let it ride and stayed on top of him. Neither have had any trouble with the litterbox since then.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Oh yes, I would think it very cruel to declaw them and then house them outside where they might need to defend themselves from predators. In my house the only predators are some very friendly Rottweilers. One in particular that enjoys a good sniff against the cats will occasionally. She doesn't need claws that I can tell. I still don't see how it is cruel as long as it is done by an experienced vet, precautions are taken to prevent infection and the cat is always housed inside where it is safe. Maybe I am missing something.


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## RenaRose (Mar 22, 2007)

Declawing is said to be very painful as part of the bone in the cats toe is cut away. 

I had a cat that was declawed once. Her name was Mouse. Someone gave her to me in exchange for a kitten I had. She was one of my favorite cats ever. Her paws never seemed to bother her. She would do this really cute thing were she would go to the couch and run her paws down it like she would do if she were sharpening her nails. 

She got out side one day and was attacked by a dog. She couldn't defend herself, couldn't climb one of our many trees, so she never stood a chance. She was so awesome, she's one of my past animals I miss the most. And out of the 150 cats I've had in my life Mouse is in the top 10 of my favorites, probably top 5.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

I bet God cursed the day he created the "HUMAN BEING" more like the "INHUMANE BEING" who are we too remove any animals essential tools for living.
Take for example the Bird,it can do the one thing we cant "FLY" (and dont say by plane please) yet when we want one what do we do clip its wings to refrain it from doing the one thing we cant.

Perhaps in our deep mindset we are built to destroy everything we can simply because we have that power!

I know what id choose if i were a cat or dog,euthanize me mate,whats the point of living with just gums or in a cats circumstance having no fingers!


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Removing a cat's claws to me is the same as removing a dog's claws - cutting off an entire joint... amputating part of the animal's "fingers." I'd only do it if it were medically necessary. My cat has all her claws, lives inside, and surprisingly, doesn't reign destruction down on my house lol.

I'm not saying I wouldn't adopt a declawed cat. I just wouldn't have the heart to have it done myself.


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## Priss and Pedro's Mama (Nov 4, 2007)

As Rowdy said, it is an amputation of the entire end bone of their toes. It can lead to some pretty serious behavior issues for some cats (mine is one of them!). Litter box avoidance/issues is one of the main problems. Other issues include cats who learn that they have no claws so they bite instead or a cat who has "phantom pain." I will not willingly declaw another cat. I suppose if it were euthanize or declaw in an otherwise healthy cat, I would do it. It would have to be life or death though. 

A few links:
http://www.declawing.com/htmls/declawing.htm
http://www.avma.org/issues/policy/animal_welfare/declawing.asp


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

I would never ever declaw a cat. To me, that is how they were made. There are many reasons why a cat might scratch your furniture. First they do it because they dont know any better, which is why you need scratching posts. My cats love their card board scratching "posts" that lay horizontal on the floor. A cat might not like the scratching post because they dont like the texture (you can get the ones with carpet (which I dont get, arent you trying to prevent them from scratching your carpet?), the ones with cardboard, or the ones with sisal rope, and there are probably more too) of the material, some like it laying horizontal some vertical and some like it diagonal. Yes some cats are very picky. Just like the litter box too, Lily will pee on my bed if the litter box is too dirty, it's her way of saying "Clean the litter box!" and if she does it it's my fault!

Then there is training. From the start you don't even need to yell at them. Just pick them up when they are scratching the inappropriate material and put them on the post and when they scratch tell them how good they are and give them a treat. My cats are not allowed to scratch anything but the post, and they know it. Negative training usually gets you nowhere with cats.

Declawing removes not just the nail but also the bone it is attached to up to the joint. Cats need their claws, even if they are indoor only. People should cut their cats claws every week or every other week. They are cats, if your not willing to deal with a scratch here and there, don't get a cat. Or adopt an already declawed cat. I lived with a friends declawed cat for 3 weeks, it was sad to see IMO. The cat would go to stretch and scratch with his paws and it was weird looking with no claws. I guess I can't explain it. It's like removing a dogs nails only worse because cats use their claws. A lot of cats resort to biting because they can't use their claws.

Now I feel like I'm rambling on and on. I can't seem to say exactly how I feel about this. I hope someone else can.


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## RenaRose (Mar 22, 2007)

I know how you feel. I would never declaw either of my cats, no matter how many times Tassel scratches up my hand.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

SLK,I do too,i grew up with cats in my house not dogs.
I'd never ever contemplate it,my dad still has my cats at his and they dont cause any harm,plus like some said before what about self defence against dogs and other cats?
Sometimes i just dont get the world and its idealisations of what we think is right and wrong.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

As for a dog in that situation I would definitely first seek professional help. I would search out one or more professional dog behaviorists to see if the problem could be solved without euthanasia or fang removal. I have definitely heard of cases where dogs were so aggressive there was no alternative to euthanasia. We had some people who were clients at work who had a Saint Bernard that was just horribly aggressive. They worked with some of the best behaviorists and tried everything possible, but this dog was just a helpless case. They thought about re-homing her, but that is often too risky in cases such as this. Their last resort was trying tranquilizers, but even that didn't work. The owners had two other dogs that were complete sweethearts. Apparently one or two of this dog's litter mates were also aggressive. 

So I definitely agree that sometimes euthanasia is necessary to cause the dog and/or a bite victim any harm. It's very sad, and definitely a VERY LAST resort. Most dogs can be rehabilitated in my opinion.

As for de-fanging...I wouldn't do it. They can still eat...some old dogs with horrible teeth end up with none due to health issues and have to eat only wet food. But I think I would choose quality of life and de-fanging to me is a lot different than declawing a cat.

Declawing is something I see all the time at work. I always feel terrible for the cats right after surgery because it is clear they are in a lot of pain, but to be honest they are in the same boat as the cats who have been spayed or had other invasive procedures. They go on pain meds and once healed have a normal life. There is still speculation that it causes arthritis as the cats age, but I see many old (like 12-21! years old) that are declawed and do not have arthritis. That being said they do remove a part of the bone and it is not a procedure I would recommend anyone to watch....I cringe EVERY time. I have heard all kinds of reasons at work why people do it and some I agree with to some extent. There are a fair few who have aggressive cats that cannot be controlled and I think declawing is a better conclusion than euthanasia in this case. As for furniture...(and I don't mean to be rude) if you don't want it ruined either don't have a cat or rigorously train a kitten. Also some people I have met do wonders with Soft Paws on their cats.

It's still something I am iffy about and wouldn't do myself, but it is definitely a good alternative to euthanasia if it comes down to that.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

There's actually a procedure called "canine reduction", which is prescribed for aggressive dogs. It's used under the premise that since the dog believes he does not have the weaponry to win a contest, he becomes less aggressive. There's not much evidence to this fact or research for that matter. 

In this procedure you don't remove the teeth, the teeth are cut down so at least the dog can eat solid food. 

Another interesting tid bit on this, mushers use to carry a tool on their sleds that would cut down the dog's teeth, should he be a squabbler among the dogs. No anesthetics, no vet techs.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

SEE,ouch,is all i can say to that curb.


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## rvamutt (Jan 8, 2008)

If you thing "defanging" a dog will make it safe then go take a look at muzzle training by police and military. A dog can very easily break jaws, injure eyes, etc. even without using teeth.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Yeah, thats interesting Curb. I'm not sure it would work though. How about we don't declaw, and we don't defang?

I'm mainly asking because I noticed some of you dog people seem to be ok with declawing. Declawing is not like docking or cropping!! It is way worse!

When I become a vet tech I will refuse to participate in declaws. They are just too much for me to handle. I doubt they would fire me over it since other people could help out with the procedure.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> There's actually a procedure called "canine reduction", which is prescribed for aggressive dogs. It's used under the premise that since the dog believes he does not have the weaponry to win a contest, he becomes less aggressive. There's not much evidence to this fact or research for that matter.
> 
> In this procedure you don't remove the teeth, the teeth are cut down so at least the dog can eat solid food.
> 
> Another interesting tid bit on this, mushers use to carry a tool on their sleds that would cut down the dog's teeth, should he be a squabbler among the dogs. No anesthetics, no vet techs.


I have always threatened my Oliver that I was going to pull his teeth out. I grab him by his canines and get right in his face and say "I will pull these teeth out Mr." Yes, I know, I am weird. He just growls like crazy. Play growling of course. The whole reason this game came about. Now, I feel bad saying it to him. Can't imagine anyone really doing that to their dogs. Not even a mouthy Rottie.

I am not saying I am a big advocate for declawing cats. I just have not had the experience to see it as bad as some folks see it. In the case of my cat, it saved her life.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

katthevamp said:


> So, how exactly will a dog eat with no teeth?


Dogs can eat without teeth. Our old gal Erin had only one tiny tooth in her entire head and she ate regular kibble with no problems (she had them removed b/c they were rotten when she came into the adoption group). She was a retired brood mama and the resident fun police. She'd gum ya in a heartbeat if you got out of line. Dang, I miss my old girl  

Our boy Grandpa has only his canine teeth forward (again, teeth removed b/c they were rotten when he came into the adoption group at 10). He's in for a dental next week and he'll probably lose all his canines this time...at least we were able to save them for nearly four years now though...I'm sure he'll be just fine without them.

At any rate - I think declawing vs removing teeth is comparing apples to oranges. I wouldn't declaw a cat now, but I wouldn't have a clawed cat living any place where I valued my furniture either. I do clip our four cat's claws weekly and they have still shredded anything fabric in the kennel...and they have plenty of enticing scratchable items. They scratch those...and just about everything else that feels good. No biggie...the kennel is their building and I was prepared for it when we adopted them - clawed.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Inga said:


> I am just so curious about this from some of you other cat lovers. Why do you think it is so cruel to remove claws on a cat? I am not asking to be attacked just educated. What is the big deal? I have a cat that was declawed when I got her. She has no claws at all. She certainly does not seem to be any worse for the wear. She was going to be euthanized and I happened to be there. If she had not been declawed on all 4 I don't think I would have taken her because I am not really a cat person, or wasn't until she needed a home. She is a great cat, but I would not have chanced it. I am glad I gave her that chance. She is an amazing cat even with no claws.


First of all, cause you are removing the first digit in their paw (equivelant to removeing the first digit on your fingers toes). Not only that, cats walk on their tiptoes (as do dogs), imagine walking on your toes and having that first digit removed.. it can cause problems later in life cause they can't walk properly. Third, cats claw things to feel comfortable. I would equate it very much with dogs chewing to comfort themselves. It's a relaxation technique they use when they are stressed (or wanting ot mark, or whatnot).

Fourth, it is a surgery and a risk. And to me it's unethical to put them through that risk just for the convenience of the owner. There are other methods. Like dogs you can work with a lot of cats (especially if htey have favorite spots to claw on. Then you do stuff like stick sticky paws ont hat spot and put a scratching post of a material they like right next to the spot. THey can still mark their favorite area but you made something you approve of a lot more tempting. Experiment and find out what they like best). There is also soft paws (you hae to put them on every so often). Also, trimming their claws often and close to the quick (Cats have clear claws so youc an see the quick) will keep them dull. Do it often that quick will recede and you can start getting those claws really short (and dull).



sillylilykitty said:


> Yeah, thats interesting Curb. I'm not sure it would work though. How about we don't declaw, and we don't defang?
> 
> I'm mainly asking because I noticed some of you dog people seem to be ok with declawing. Declawing is not like docking or cropping!! It is way worse!
> 
> When I become a vet tech I will refuse to participate in declaws. They are just too much for me to handle. I doubt they would fire me over it since other people could help out with the procedure.


Gotta agree. It's a painful surgery. I get to see them after they are done (I work at a vet and he declaws). THey are not happy cats. And they can get the surgery site infected really easy (I mean they walk on that area and on things like litterboxes where it's not so sanitary).

Not only that, it can cause biting issues or peeing issues (They start associating the pain of walking after the surgery with the litterbox).

Honestly, I hate having to schedule declaws and it's one of my least favorite part of the job (I really have to bite my tongue a lot). I really wish it were illegal (it is in many countries cause many countries consider it cruel).



CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> There are a fair few who have aggressive cats that cannot be controlled and I think declawing is a better conclusion than euthanasia in this case.



I would consider this a really bad reason to declaw a cat. Because a declawed cat can resort to biting instead and honestly, cat bites are a helluva lot worse than a scratch (I've read something like 90% of cat bites get infected).

On top of htat, I have to disagree that spaying is as painful. Spayed cats the next day don't act like they are in much pain at all the next day if any. Declawed cats on the other hand still act very uncomfortable the day after the surgery. And I'd say more clients call back to say that their cat acts in pain after being declawed than after being spayed (in fact I am not sure I've had any clients call back to say they think their pets are in pain after being spayed).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Some spays are painful....for a 4-month-old kitten, who has never gone into heat or had a litter, pain is minimal. For an older female, it can be horrible. One of my mom's cats was seriously overbred (she was a stray in a trailer park), and when we had her spayed, she was in serious pain for a solid week. She wouldn't let anybody touch her. I feel bad now; I wish we had gotten pain meds for her. 

But here's the difference between a painful spay, and a de-claw (by nature very painful): the spay has benefits to the cat. The vet said that if Sonja (the aforementioned cat) had had another litter, it would have killed her. Spaying a young female will prevent this overbreeding from ever happening. A de-claw has no benefits to the cat, it is purely a matter of owner convenience.

Just because a cat has claws does not mean that he should be allowed to wreck your furniture. It is a training issue. Nobody here would suggest performing elective orthopedic surgery on a dog over a training issue. In fact, even a de-clawed cat should not be allowed to "scratch" your furniture, as this means that they are marking it with their scent, and this can eventually escalate into urine marking. Your cat should not be allowed to mark your furniture, period.

It all comes down to people valuing dogs over cats. Dogs are not commonly subjected to surgery to "correct" behavioral problems. There is no reason why it should be acceptable for cats to be subjected to it. 

Just because an animal CAN adapt to a disability does not mean that they should be electively disabled. And de-clawing IS a severe disability. If you don't think that it is, then you have never seen a de-clawed cat fall off of the back of the couch, or fall 20 feet down from the banister, or desperately try (and fail) to climb a tree when a dog/coyote is chasing it. 

A cat was created with claws for a reason; they need them for proper cat functioning. Even housecats. My Scotty fell off the banister about a week after he was neutered (which is commonly when de-claws are perpetrated upon cats). He was able to catch (with his claws) something that was hanging over the banister, and break his fall that way. I do think he would have been hurt, possibly killed (it's a good 30 feet) if he had not been able to catch himself, and I am very grateful that I did not have his claws cut out. 

I consider de-fanging, de-clawing, or de-barking a dog to be virtually identical to de-clawing a cat. It would be hypocritical of me to object to one of those procedures and not to the others.

*In summary: I do not think we should resort to subjecting our pets (any pet) to surgery as a substitute for training. *


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

I've had cats all my life until now (bf is allergic and has asthma so no kitty  ) They have NEVER been declawed and I have NEVER had a single problem with furniture. I don't see the problem. Teach them not to claw, if they show a propensity, you get them a scratch post, show it to them once and you are generally good to go. No problem.

I seem to recall that cat declawing is either illegal in Europe or more likely most vets simply won't do it bc is is considered terribly inhumane. 

as for defanging....that seems wrong dude, just wrong......of course so is euthanizing a perfectly healthy animal bc you are too lazy to train it properly....


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Teddie has allergies and I have to stop him from chewing ALL THE TIME! He chews until he's raw and bloody if I'm not right there and the worst part is it only takes a matter of seconds. Would I defang him; no. Do I wish he didn't chew; YES! When he has a chewing fit he gets to wear his cone. 

To pull a dogs teeth is over the line and cruel!

Did they say why they did this? DO they know why he's chewing so much and if so what have they done to stop him? I'm very curious because no matter what I'd never pull a dogs teeth. That's like saying if a dog bites you you're going to pull out his teeth. 

I'm not for declawing either, so it's not just a dog thing. I also don't like cropping and docking unless it's needed.


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## Ana (Feb 26, 2008)

Its actually easier to recover from a tooth extraction which is what defanging does than surgical amputation which is what declawing does. IMO declawing a cat is more comparable to debarking a dog than to defanging.

But regardless of the pain caused, both are quite inhumane and does nothing to solve the root of the problem, which is human laziness. Sure, if you defang the dog, it wont cause injury when it attempts to bite, but that also means the human owner of the dog is basically escaping from the duty of training the dog or is just masking the result of lack of training. Similarly, declawing just means the owner is runing from the duty of purchasing a scratching post, etc..

Both those things are just "symptom removers", they are not actual cures to a very common issue. A defanged dog will still sometimes attempt to bite, its just that when it does, it wont cause injury. Many declawed cats will still scratch, its just that its not destroying furniture anymore. What people need to know is that there are ways to prevent vicious dogs and cats which scratch furniture, it's just a pity few do research.

Think of a kid who likes to draw on furniture or who likes to get into fights in school. Obviously the right way to go about getting rid of these problems is to teach the child correct behaviour and what is right. The parents would be considered lunatics if they attempted to have the childs fingers cut off, but unfortunately, if these procedures are done to an animal, its considered right. There's a reason declawing and defanging are either illegal or heavily regulated in many countries.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

i wonder why so many people think declawing a cat is so cruel but think nothing of amputating a dog's tail or cropping its ears. sure, maybe they do get over it, or maybe they also suffer phantom pain etc. 

my cat was none the worse for wear when she was declawed, and it was a last resort. however i would never defang an animal for biting. i would try every other possible solution and if nothing worked i may have the animal put down if i couldn't find any other solution. taking an animal's teeth and leaving them unable to eat is cruel.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I am also against docking and cropping....subjecting an animal to cosmetic surgery just seems wrong to me, like having cosmetic surgery done on a 6-year-old child because you don't like how she looks. BUT those are hardly the same types of procedures; they have no impact on the way a dog lives his life. Some dogs have stand-up ears and bobtails naturally. The procedures cannot be compared to de-clawing, de-fanging, or de-barking. 

I've known elderly dogs that have lost their teeth naturally. Most of them eat hard kibble with no problem. Dogs are not known for chewing, LOL. Those that do like to chew can have their kibble moistened, or they can be fed canned food. So de-fanging a dog would not really leave them unable to eat. I've never known a cat that lost his/her claws naturally, and the loss cannot be compensated for. The claws are gone forever, and the cat is helpless to any predator that may come along, human or animal.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

I have cats and dogs both. None of my cats are de-clawed and they are indoor and out. My question would be- why declaw in the first place? I put carpet tape on furniture I dont want them to scratch, catnip where I want them- never had a problem. As for removing the dogs teeth because he bites? Good grief thats harsh, but it may just be MHO
Have they checked everything as to why he bites? Starting from a physical issue to food related to how he is handled? I think I would rather my dog find a home where he would be happier before I would do something like this.
I had a lab mix that would climb a 6" fence to go visit one of my neighbors a few houses down- just about drove me batty until this neighbor asked if they could keep her since she gets along so well with their dog. They had a 4" fence.... but I told them as long as she will stay with them, I didnt see a problem. 
She never left their yard, just liked them better I guess. Kinda threw me for a loop, but everyone was happy and it gave us a excuse to visit. Mind you we had her about 5 years before we moved there and this behavior started, never had a problem like this before then, so in retrospect kinda funny. BTW my neighbors dog could've been her sister, they looked so much alike


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Willowy, good post, I agree with you. The comparison to de-barking is a good one, both surgical "solutions" to a training issue. For some reason it never occurs to people to try training techniques with their cats, or to kitten proof the house the way they would with a puppy. We spend months training puppies not to chew items in the house, but expect a cat, _a kitten_, to just get it. Part of it is, imo, that cats are touted as the low maintenance pet for busy people, but the fact is that cats have to be taught how to behave in your home just like dogs do, and the kitten phase is very much like the puppy phase. The thought of declawing a _kitten_ along with their spay surgery....it's *not at all *like defanging an aggressive dog, it's like defanging a _puppy_ who chews your sofa or mouths your hands. 

If _aggression_ is the issue, a cat who is aggressive, or a dog who is aggressive, not just scratching your sofa or mouthing you, and all other behavior/medical options have been exhausted, then yes, I do think it's kinder to euthanize.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sheltiemom said:


> The thought of declawing a _kitten_ along with their spay surgery....it's *not at all *like defanging an aggressive dog, it's like defanging a _puppy_ who chews your sofa or mouths your hands.


This is kind of my point....I can't really fault someone who de-claws their cat in response to a serious scratching problem. I don't believe that masking the behavior with surgery is the answer, but not everyone will agree with that. But, the sad fact is that the VAST majority (probably 95%, from what I've seen) of de-claws are done for no reason. Just because it can be done, just because the general public is enamored of subjecting their pets to random surgeries, just because the vet offers a "spay and de-claw package" at a discount. NOT because the kitten has ever actually scratched anything, or maybe he has scratched something, but is only exhibiting mild and easily redirected scratching behaviors.

I'm sure that if you looked hard enough, you would find a vet that routinely does de-claws on dogs to prevent them from digging, or de-toothing on puppies so they can't chew up the couch, or de-barkings so as "not to disturb the neighbors". But in general, dogs are treated much more respectfully by the vet community and general public as a whole.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Annamarie said:


> i wonder why so many people think declawing a cat is so cruel but think nothing of amputating a dog's tail or cropping its ears. sure, maybe they do get over it, or maybe they also suffer phantom pain etc.
> 
> my cat was none the worse for wear when she was declawed, and it was a last resort. however i would never defang an animal for biting. i would try every other possible solution and if nothing worked i may have the animal put down if i couldn't find any other solution. taking an animal's teeth and leaving them unable to eat is cruel.


Hey, I don't like cropping and am against tail docking (but the docking part doesn't bug me as much anymore if done when they are just a few days old since working at the vet if done when they are just born they cry out once and forget it happened a few minutes later so it doesn't seem to affect them too much. Cropping though seems to be a painful surgery even in the healing up part. I've heard of plenty of dogs that don't let you touch their ears after being cropped. My vet who sees nothing wrong wtih declawing will not crop ears or debark).

As other people pointed out though, at least once the surgery has healed the docking or cropping doesn't affect their life. As I pointed out, clawing to cats is a lot like chewing to dogs. It does a lot for them. It's a coping mechanism and it helps them feel more comfortable in an area as well as helps them stretch out (as well as their foot is designed to have that digit that is removed to walk on). On top of htat you are taking away their main defense if htey need it.


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## Ana (Feb 26, 2008)

Another reason declawing is bad is that cats naturally walk on their toes. When theyre declawed, the first joint is gone so they have to walk in other unatural ways to compensate, and this eventually leads to problems. At first the cat will hide the pain or discomfort, but it could eventually become obvious. The larger the cat, the higher the chances of later problems. That's one reason why larger/heavier declawed cats like tigers will often just sit and refuse to walk- simply because its too painful.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

all this talk about scratching behavioral issues with cats leads me to one question, and i have to laugh about it. 

where on earth do you find a cat trainer? ROFL... 

with my cat the "training" included using a squirt bottle to make her go away, suggested by the vet, which i remember only made her angrier. now i was a small child cornered against an angry wet furball with claws and teeth growling at me and coming in for the kill. good lord it's no wonder i'm not a cat person. lol....


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Tigress and Willowy, get posts I agree!

I am also against cropping, I would never crop a dogs ears. Docking and dewclaw removal is a different story IMO. They are done BEFORE the nervous system is completely developed around 3-5 days old (I wouldnt go any older then that just in case they develop fast) and does not require anesthesia.

But you see cropping and docking and dewclaw removal doesnt compare to declawing a cat. Dogs dont walk on their tails or their ears or their wrists. And I'm not talking about docking a 3 year old, thats a different story, nervous system is completely there and the dog is already used to having a tail. Cats walk on their feet, immediately after waking up from surgery. Imagine waking up from a toe amputation surgery and having to walk everywhere with no wheelchair or crutches and then having to walk in a litter box....ouch, no thank you.



lovemygreys said:


> I do clip our four cat's claws weekly and they have still shredded anything fabric in the kennel...and they have plenty of enticing scratchable items. They scratch those...and just about everything else that feels good. No biggie...the kennel is their building and I was prepared for it when we adopted them - clawed.


Do your cats live in the kennel away from the house? Away from where all the people live? If so that might be why. If they had grown up in the house with you then you could train better because you are always there. Thats why it's so hard for people to train their dogs not to howl in the crate when your gone, because you arent there! But I like your attitude about it, they live in the kennel and get to shed things up if they want to.



TeddieXRuxpin said:


> Did they say why they did this? DO they know why he's chewing so much and if so what have they done to stop him? I'm very curious because no matter what I'd never pull a dogs teeth. That's like saying if a dog bites you you're going to pull out his teeth.


They pulled them out because the dog started to become aggressive and bite everyone (any person or animal). The dog COULD eat dry kibble, even with absolutely no teeth, just like some other people have said about dogs they know.

Annemarie, I don't know if they have cat trainers like they do dog trainers, since they definatly wouldnt get as much work. But there are some great books available. "Think Like a Cat" by Pat Johnson-Bennett http://www.amazon.com/Think-Like-Cat-Well-Adjusted-Cat-Not/dp/0140288546 is the book I used to raise my Lily. Every problem or question (not counting some of the trick training I have done, got another book for that) I have had so far with Lily has been answered in that book. The reason why my cats got along so well from the very beginning is that book. And hopefully it will help me when I introduce Lily to my future dog (I'm sure it will, it covers introducing resident cats to a new dog).

Because of good training, I only need to tell Lily once to stop doing something and she will stop. She doesnt have a begging problem, I can eat in peace (I can even set my plate on the floor tell her no and know she wont touch it). She knows how to sit, speak, lay down, jump and how to walk on a leash. That book even helped me when I had a biting problem with her (I was the one who needed to change).

But you have to remember they are cats not dogs. If you leave them alone they probably will do something they arent allowed. I keep my cats in my bedroom when I leave the house otherwise they would get on the counters and eat the butter and jump on all the tables....


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## Ana (Feb 26, 2008)

Annamarie said:


> all this talk about scratching behavioral issues with cats leads me to one question, and i have to laugh about it.
> 
> where on earth do you find a cat trainer? ROFL...
> 
> with my cat the "training" included using a squirt bottle to make her go away, suggested by the vet, which i remember only made her angrier. now i was a small child cornered against an angry wet furball with claws and teeth growling at me and coming in for the kill. good lord it's no wonder i'm not a cat person. lol....


They're out there, it's just that they're not as popular or common as dog owners trainers traditionally, the answer was just to chop off a cats claws. One example of a well known behaviourist would be Pam Johnson-Bennett. http://catbehaviorassociates.com She wrote a book called Hiss and Tell which was a collection of stories of cats with behaviourproblems that she's encountered. It's a small book and a pretty interesting read.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Ana said:


> They're out there, it's just that they're not as popular or common as dog owners trainers traditionally, the answer was just to chop off a cats claws. One example of a well known behaviourist would be Pam Johnson-Bennett. http://catbehaviorassociates.com She wrote a book called Hiss and Tell which was a collection of stories of cats with behaviourproblems that she's encountered. It's a small book and a pretty interesting read.


LOL, and that would be why my book has helped me so much. Because it is written by a very good behaviorist


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## NeedleNoseLuvR (Sep 19, 2007)

I'm really suprised at the number of people on here that think declawing a cat is no big deal. I have cats, too, and none of my cats are declawed and I will never declaw. My furniture is not so important that I will mutilate another living creature to protect it. I keep my cats' claws clipped just like I clip my dogs' nails.

Many of you have given holy hell to people who post on this forum about destructive puppies/dogs and how they are going to get rid of the puppy/dog if it doesn't stop chewing, peeing, barking or whatever. You expect people to work through problems by training and behavior modification but you're unwilling to do the same for a cat!

If someone posted on this forum about how they were having their puppy declawed on all fours at the same time they have it spayed/neutered (because you see they have new hardwood floors and don't want the floors scratched and well clipping nails is too much trouble and they don't want to pay to have it done) I'm sure the response from the people on this forum would be short and to the point - this horrible person should not own a dog! 

But you see nothing wrong with declawing a cat for similar reasons.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Yep, I have crazy hyper spaz kitty who so far has done more damage than the dog (i've also had her more than a year and the dog only a month but within a month she destroyed one blind).

She has calmed down some (I swear she was more hyper than your normal kitty) even today I caught her enlarging a hole she made in my blind and sticking her whole head through (trying to get her whole body through). Funny, but aggravating at the same time.

She's still got her claws and I'm just thankful she's calmed down a bit.

Even so, the dog has much more potential to quickly destroy much more expensive items than the cat (I've seen the stories of dogs destroying a couch in a day. And not just make it look super ratty, but unusable. Cats just destroy the fabric and it takes them time to do so). But detoothing the dog would be considered totally cruel to protect my furniture. So why is declawing ok?


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

we did not declaw the cat because of the furniture. sure she ruined about $3,000 of furniture and drapes in no time flat, but the biggest issue was that she almost blinded my brother, and we both have permanent scars all over our faces (i have one very prominent one close to my eye if you'd like to see just how often and how close she intentionally went for our eyes). no parent would allow a pet to continue harming their children especially if it was as serious as nearly causing blindness. she scratched the white of my brother's eye. a few fractions of an inch closer and he would have been blind for life. 

i wish the cat was still around so you could try your behavior modification techniques. the cat had NO problem taking any punishment you could dish out. we tried everything the vet advised. nothing worked. she would keep coming after you relentlessly for no reason. i seriously think this cat had a mental issue.

do i think declawing a cat is ok for minor reasons like convenience? no. but in some cases, it is necessary or at least an alternative to giving up the pet to a shelter or having it put down.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Declawing versus euthanasia, yes, but I think most people never even try. I know people with declawed cats just because. It's something you're supposed to do.

Imo, it is not comparable to cropping and docking because as others have said it's a permanent disability. Regardless of your thoughts on cropping and docking, a dog that is cropped/docked will heal and not suffer any adverse effects. It doesn't change the way that the dog lives. Cats walk on their toes and you're amputating the last segment of each toe. Plus if your cat gets in a predicament, it can't defend itself.

Don't even get me started on debarking. I can't stand that practice. If you hate barking that much, do NOT get a sheltie or a collie (two of the most commonly debarked breeds). Why get a vocal breed if you refuse to deal with it? I hate the rasping noise a debarked dog makes- gives me the chills. It's not even like the dog is magically silent, you just get to hear a wheezy sounding bark instead of a normal one.

As for the OP, I'd think a dog that aggressive that this would need to be done should just be put down. With or without teeth, it could hurt someone.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Annamarie said:


> we did not declaw the cat because of the furniture. sure she ruined about $3,000 of furniture and drapes in no time flat, but the biggest issue was that she almost blinded my brother, and we both have permanent scars all over our faces (i have one very prominent one close to my eye if you'd like to see just how often and how close she intentionally went for our eyes). no parent would allow a pet to continue harming their children especially if it was as serious as nearly causing blindness. she scratched the white of my brother's eye. a few fractions of an inch closer and he would have been blind for life.
> 
> i wish the cat was still around so you could try your behavior modification techniques. the cat had NO problem taking any punishment you could dish out. we tried everything the vet advised. nothing worked. she would keep coming after you relentlessly for no reason. i seriously think this cat had a mental issue.
> 
> do i think declawing a cat is ok for minor reasons like convenience? no. but in some cases, it is necessary or at least an alternative to giving up the pet to a shelter or having it put down.


Vets first of all are not the people I'd go for behavioral issues (and this is from some one who works at one). Several people on this forum have mentioned that to people who take advice from their vet for dog training. SOunds like if you could have accessed a cat behaviorlist (which may not exist back then though) that would have been a better option to try before declawing. Even with declawing, did this cat just attack constantly or was it just sometimes but otherwise happy (if the first the cat probably either needed to be found out why he was like that or put down cause it probably wasn't a good quality of life for him since he was constantly being antagonized).

You are lucky the cat did not start biting instead (cat bites are worse than scratches in general... well unless the scratch gets the eye  ).

And I'm not sure punishing a cat works well especially if they are being aggressive (They might just take it as more of an attack and aggravate them more). That's why I'd say a behaviorist would be better (at least today when they exist, as I said, not sure in your case depending on when you had this cat there were any): to find out why the cat was acting aggressive. For example, wasthere another cat outside that aggravated it that it could see but not reach? This is actually a very common reason for a cat to be aggressive, they redirect it when they can't get to what they want to be aggressive at... particularly if it is ongoing and really aggravating them. Which means punishing it it thinks it's just fighting back. And it doesn't mean they see the cat and then attack, they could just be put into a very antagonized state of mind and then attack the next thing they see that they can get to.

But, to the original point, I suppose when all other options are exhausted I could see it. Long as the cat is not all the time antagonized and mostly is a happy cat (otherwise I'd euth it at that point).

I had a cat when I was a kid that would haul off and scratch people. I learned when she was most likely to do it (you had half a second of warning when her eyes narrowed) and would learn to back away. SHe wasn't as bad as some cats I've heard of (like I"m guessing yours did not back down judging from what you said) but she did have a habit with strangers of letting them pet her for a few minutes and when they didn't figure out she didn't like it (she hated strangers), she'd give them a scratch and run off. But she wasn't an attack cat, she was more of a defense scratch and run.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Take for example the Bird,it can do the one thing we cant "FLY" (and dont say by plane please) yet when we want one what do we do clip its wings to refrain it from doing the one thing we cant.


Well just an FYI about the birds. Clipping their wings doesn't hurt. It's basically like giving a bird a hair cut. Most of their feathers don't have nerve endings, so you just trim those up so they can flutter not fly. And having had a bird, I can tell you when you forget to clip their wings....let's just say my lovebird got on a ceiling fan and kept hopping over to the next blade everytime I tried to reach up for him. Trying to catch a tiny flying bird is a real PITA. I guess one could argue that maybe we shouldn't have pet birds in the first place, but well, I don't think it's so bad. I started broadening my viewpoint about animals in captivity after I read "The Life of Pi". If you haven't read it, you really should.

And Mr. Pooch, I love you, you're one of my favorite people on DF, but come on there are a lot of amputees out there who would really resent you saying you'd rather be dead than missing a finger. A lot of them fight the urge to kill themselves out of feeling deformed and hopeless and well...I think you get my drift.

Sometimes we humanize things too much or get too emotional about things. But it's hard to be rational when you think of animals that died by our cruelty and it's hard to remember that not ALL human interaction with nature and animals ends so badly. 

But I don't think I'd defang my dog. If he was biting that much then he would need to be put down. Besides, how the heck would he eat? I dunno, somehow the image of a dog gumming his food and growling and gumming at people is just too depressing.


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## Ana (Feb 26, 2008)

This might not be the case for you, Annamarie, but in one of bennettes books, she talked about a case of an aggressive cat. The couple who owned didn't know what to do so called her, and it turns out they didn't even know how to play with a cat. One of them had only owned a dog before and thought you could play the same way with a cat and tried to give it belly rubs and roughhousing it, and that's totally the opposite in terms of cat language. Cats don't like having their stomach areas touched at all and sometimes just the act of trying to touch it will make them scratch, so people who keep on trying it will get scratched or bitten, and in the end the cat may even actively attack them.

Not saying this is exactly what caused your cat to be aggressive, but it just illustrates one of the causes of cat aggression that people blame on the cat rather than themselves. IMO finding the cat a decent home is a much better alternative to disabling it on purpose. And Im curious why you still went near the cat after it gave you scars  Why not try to find it a good home instead?



Animals can adapt to their disabilities in many ways which even people find to be inspirational. For example, there've been lots who've lost limbs in accidents, one example being Willy the chihuahua, and they adapt quickly, sometimes behaving as if they arent disabled at all. But just because they function as if the disability doesnt exist doesnt mean there is no pain or inconvenience.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

tigress said:


> And I'm not sure punishing a cat works well especially if they are being aggressive (They might just take it as more of an attack and aggravate them more). That's why I'd say a behaviorist would be better (at least today when they exist, as I said, not sure in your case depending on when you had this cat there were any): to find out why the cat was acting aggressive. For example, wasthere another cat outside that aggravated it that it could see but not reach? This is actually a very common reason for a cat to be aggressive, they redirect it when they can't get to what they want to be aggressive at... particularly if it is ongoing and really aggravating them.


Yeah...My cat Lily has the over stimulation from petting type of aggression. If you pet her too much and don't let her get away from you she will resort to hissing and then biting. I learned my lesson after I figured it out (thanks to the book by Pam).

There are a few different types of aggressions. Redirected aggression (the cat sees another cat outside the window and then bites you), over stimulation aggression (some cats cant take much petting at all), and there are others but I can't think of them now. It's all in my book though Seriously that is -the- best cat training book ever! It has all the answers.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

sillylilykitty said:


> Yeah...My cat Lily has the over stimulation from petting type of aggression. If you pet her too much and don't let her get away from you she will resort to hissing and then biting. I learned my lesson after I figured it out (thanks to the book by Pam).


Hey, that sounds a lot like my cat. I can't really pet her at all... only occasionally, and briefly, and only on certain parts of her body etc. If I overdo it, she starts biting me so I end up shooing her off my lap lol... I should look for that book.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Cheetah said:


> Hey, that sounds a lot like my cat. I can't really pet her at all... only occasionally, and briefly, and only on certain parts of her body etc. If I overdo it, she starts biting me so I end up shooing her off my lap lol... I should look for that book.


Yeah, Lily is getting better since I respect her boundaries. I still pet her but if she says shes done I let her go or stop petting (depends on if I am holding her or just petting her). That is what the book says. Lily is a way happier cat now that I do this with her. I enjoy being with her much more. Touching her paws, she hates being pet there and it's kind of a dangerous thing to pet her there, but only if she is sitting or laying down. I can cut her nails no problem.

I highly recommend any and every cat owner to get this book and read it.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

cat behaviorists DEFINATELY did not exist 20 years ago, otherwise the vet would have mentioned going to one before presenting the option of decalwing.

the cat was not antagonized or played with wrong, we were taught from birth to respect our animals and treat them with kindness. to this cat, that meant completely leaving her alone unless she came and sat with you, and even then you couldn't pet her or she would lash out after purring for a few minutes. sometimes the attacks were entirely random (as I said, waking up and opening my bedroom door to find the cat laying outside just waiting for me to try and cross her path so she could jump me) and sometimes the stupidest things would set her off. We were small children and anytime we played music or started dancing (as children do) she would come flying at us. If she was hungry, even if she had food, she would come flying at us because she wanted WET food. Like I said, this went far beyond any kind of cat training, this was some mental problem in my opinion. It's not normal for a cat to be that aggressive and miserable. After she was declawed, and well into old age, she remained the same. She bit (and she bit before she was declawed), and we had left her hind claws because it was only with her front claws she was attacking our faces, and she used her remaining claws and teeth to do whatever damage she could. 

I think she truly enjoyed scratching people, I really do. I remember she would lay on the corner of the couch in the living room all the time, and wait for our dog to walk by. Every time she did, she'd bat him on the face and bite his nose. (To which he would bark in shock and look totally stunned that she had done that... for the thousandth time....). 

Anyway, I'm done defending my family's decision and explaining the cat situation to death. I beleive it was the right decision at the time. If my mother had allowed the cat to blind my brother she would have had her children taken from her. I don't think it's the right decision in all cases and as I said, especially not for convenience reasons only, but for that cat it was declawing or being put down. I beleive we did the responsible things as pet owners by declawing her to prevent her from permanently damaging a child, and by giving that miserable animal a good life for the next 20 something years. She was completely content being the queen of her castle and was never the cuddly type. She was perfectly happy to sit in the sun glaring at us and swatting us around whenever she wanted her wet food.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Written by Veterinarian, Dr. Christianne Schelling 

If you are considering declawing your cat, please read this. It will only take a moment, and it will give you valuable information to help you in your decision. 

First, you should know that declawing is pretty much an American thing, it's something people do for their own convenience without realizing what actually happens to their beloved cat. In England declawing is termed "inhumane" and "unnecessary mutilation." I agree. In many European countries it is illegal. I applaud their attitude. 

Before you make the decision to declaw your cat, there are some important facts you should know. Declawing is not like a manicure. It is serious surgery. Your cat's claw is not a toenail. It is actually closely adhered to the bone. So closely adhered that to remove the claw, the last bone of your the cat's claw has to be removed. Declawing is actually an amputation of the last joint of your cat's "toes". When you envision that, it becomes clear why declawing is not a humane act. It is a painful surgery, with a painful recovery period. And remember that during the time of recuperation from the surgery your cat would still have to use its feet to walk, jump, and scratch in its litter box regardless of the pain it is experiencing. Wheelchairs and bedpans are not an option for a cat. 

No cat lover would doubt that cats--whose senses are much keener than ours--suffer pain. They may, however, hide it better. Not only are they proud, they instinctively know that they are at risk when in a weakened position, and by nature will attempt to hide it. But make no mistake. This is not a surgery to be taken lightly. 

Your cat's body is perfectly designed to give it the grace, agility and beauty that is unique to felines. Its claws are an important part of this design. Amputating the important part of their anatomy that contains the claws drastically alters the conformation of their feet. The cat is also deprived of its primary means of defense, leaving it prey to predators if it ever escapes to the outdoors.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Annamarie said:


> Anyway, I'm done defending my family's decision and explaining the cat situation to death. I beleive it was the right decision at the time. If my mother had allowed the cat to blind my brother she would have had her children taken from her. I don't think it's the right decision in all cases and as I said, especially not for convenience reasons only, but for that cat it was declawing or being put down. I beleive we did the responsible things as pet owners by declawing her to prevent her from permanently damaging a child, and by giving that miserable animal a good life for the next 20 something years. She was completely content being the queen of her castle and was never the cuddly type. She was perfectly happy to sit in the sun glaring at us and swatting us around whenever she wanted her wet food.


Please don't take anything I say on your situation as an attack on your families decisions. Personally, I only wanted to know how the cat was acting to see how to fix it other then declawing. IMO I would've tried to find a new home for the cat, for the safety of the kids and the cat and the dog too. But thats just my opinion and it's not like it matters because everything is done and happened a long time ago.

Just trying to educate people about other options Things to think about and try first before doing anything drastic.


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## Ana (Feb 26, 2008)

Annamarie said:


> cat behaviorists DEFINATELY did not exist 20 years ago, otherwise the vet would have mentioned going to one before presenting the option of decalwing.
> 
> the cat was not antagonized or played with wrong, we were taught from birth to respect our animals and treat them with kindness. to this cat, that meant completely leaving her alone unless she came and sat with you, and even then you couldn't pet her or she would lash out after purring for a few minutes. sometimes the attacks were entirely random (as I said, waking up and opening my bedroom door to find the cat laying outside just waiting for me to try and cross her path so she could jump me) and sometimes the stupidest things would set her off. We were small children and anytime we played music or started dancing (as children do) she would come flying at us. If she was hungry, even if she had food, she would come flying at us because she wanted WET food. Like I said, this went far beyond any kind of cat training, this was some mental problem in my opinion. It's not normal for a cat to be that aggressive and miserable. After she was declawed, and well into old age, she remained the same. She bit (and she bit before she was declawed), and we had left her hind claws because it was only with her front claws she was attacking our faces, and she used her remaining claws and teeth to do whatever damage she could.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a case of poor socialisation and training, the same as I would say that most "aggressive" dogs arent truly vicious but the result of owners who didn't bother to train their dogs or define boundries. From the way you talk about the cat, it sounds like it definitly wasn't acquired from a proper breeder. A proper cat breeder would educate first of all and would make all owners agree to never declaw it. If it was a rescue or gotten from a BYB, then really- it's highly likely it would come with behaviour issues and instead of mutilating it, it's better to attempt to find it a more suitable home. If I came across a dog that wouldn't stop barking and even the last behaviorist on earth couldn't help me, I'd at least try to find another person with a large farm or something and no neighbours and who wouldn't mind the barking instead of going to get it debarked.

And at the end of the day, cats arent dogs and expecting them to be "cuddly" is wrong, especially one that has behaviour issues. The flying at people for wet food is a sign of that- perhaps she was rewarded with wet food when she attacked people? and probably because it was the only way she knew to communicate what she wanted.

Some cats just dont like dogs and yes, will bite them on the nose if they approach, just like how some breed of dogs with a large prey drive will chase cats and other animals. The sensible thing to do would be to separate the two, not blame them for it. Some dogs cant be trained out of chasing cats, some cant.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Ana said:


> That sounds like a case of poor socialisation and training, the same as I would say that most "aggressive" dogs arent truly vicious but the result of owners who didn't bother to train their dogs or define boundries. From the way you talk about the cat, it sounds like it definitly wasn't acquired from a proper breeder. A proper cat breeder would educate first of all and would make all owners agree to never declaw it. If it was a rescue or gotten from a BYB, then really- it's highly likely it would come with behaviour issues and instead of mutilating it, it's better to attempt to find it a more suitable home.


I just need to say the majority of people do not get cats from breeders. Most people adopt from the humane society or decide to take in a stray cat from around their neighborhood or from another person. I rarely see pedigree cats anywhere except at the cat shows I attend.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

the cat was a rescue. my mom bought her from a bad pet store because she couldn't bear to see her there and called the spca on them the cat was in such bad condition. as i mentioned before she had a broken tail and couldn't eat solid food and was too small to go up the stairs. i beleive the owners had charges brought on them once they were put under investigation because the business was quickly sold after that, and much more responsible pet store people took over. boy, rescuing the cat came back to bite us in the ass didn't it... literally.

and socializing a cat? you've got to be kidding me. as far as the dogs go, she adopted my mom's dog that we had before we got her as her "mom" when she was little, so she had no problem with dogs until that dog passed away and we got another.

as far as rehoming her, we tried. nobody would take her. if she had been taken to the spca she would have been put down because nobody would have adopted her.

the fact is, it was done 20 years ago, none of you were there, and shouldn't be making judgements on a case you didn't personally witness.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Annamarie said:


> the fact is, it was done 20 years ago, none of you were there, and shouldn't be making judgements on a case you didn't personally witness.


I'm sorry if you ever thought I was attacking your personal experience. Obviously, there was something wrong with that cat and I don't know WHAT on earth I'd do in that situation. Though I honestly don't see how de-clawing a truly aggressive cat would do much good----to me it would be like.....if there was a crazy guy trying to kill you with a hammer, so you took his hammer away. Well, he'd still be a crazy guy trying to kill you. Possibly he'd be slightly less dangerous without his hammer, but still. But, like you said, we weren't there. 

The main problem I see, and what I AM attacking, is the routine mutilation of a cat's paws, done for no reason, completely thoughtlessly and ignorantly. Or those who do not even attempt to train their cats at all, just rush them off to the vet for serious orthopedic surgery at the first sign of scratching. This is cruel and should be illegal. 

And vets----although so many say they "don't like" to perform de-claws----truly push the procedure. They offer "neuter and de-claw packages", with the de-claw being half-price when done at the same time as the neuter. They tell you that all responsible cat owners de-claw their cats. They refer to cats they're offering for adoption as being "already" de-clawed. They tell unsuspecting new cat owners that "it doesn't hurt them; it's just like trimming your toenails". They say "oh, he can still go outside, as long as we only take his front claws, he'll be fine". They say "well, if he's going to be an indoor cat, he doesn't need his claws at all! We can take all of them out and he won't even notice!" They're doing all they can to make de-clawing seem normal and routine, and they spread all kinds of ridiculous nonsense, and people believe the vets, and trust them entirely! 

And the vets who truly do dislike performing de-claws will say that there's no point trying to talk their clients out of de-clawing, or they'll just go to a different vet. I don't think so. Most people trust vets so much that I believe that if a vet said "Oh, I don't do routine de-claws. That's just cruel. Here's some info on how to train your cat not to scratch things", that 95% of his clients would not de-claw their cats. The vets really hold the ball on this issue. But instead, most of them fail miserably to protect their patients from unnecessary pain and suffering. Is it any wonder that I don't trust vets?

And, yes, I have heard of vets that offer "neuter and de-bark packages". So it does happen to dogs, too. But people are far more likely to be horrified when hearing of a dog that was routinely de-barked than they are when hearing of a cat that was routinely de-clawed.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

Hey, wasn't trying to imply you guys were antagonizing the cat, jsut that something might have been (as I said, could be an outdoor cat the cat could see, could be the overstimulation thing some one else pointed out, could be some mental thing like you mentioned).

I know things are different these days (why I mentioned that I acknowledge there might not have been cat behavioralists at the time). But also wanted to put in my .02 cents in case some one else had a cat with aggression issues now and show that there are definitely things you hadn't mentioned they can try today (and that a behaviorilist is more proper to go to for that kind of problem than a vet these days).

One of the few times I've condoned declawing was for a person who owned a cat who had some sort of immune issue and could have deathly consequences if the cat scratched her (even by accident). Or one time when they tried everything and the cat was scratching itself to bleeding and nothing stopped the cat from scratching at itself (that had to be a four paw declaw).

I'm not saying htere are no times to declaw, but I would consider them very rare. And I'd rather see people exhaust every other option (like trying to find the cause of why the cat is being antagonized) for a behavior issue before going to declawing so would like to encourage that.



Willowy said:


> And vets----although so many say they "don't like" to perform de-claws----truly push the procedure. They offer "neuter and de-claw packages", with the de-claw being half-price when done at the same time as the neuter.


I wish mine would say he doesn't like to perform declaws. He sees absolutely nothing wrong with it (he's declawed his own cats even and does it to all his cats).

He doesn't advertise specials (Though he does have a neuter and declaw price) and doesn't suggest it to people who don't ask about it. But if they ask about it (like they still are open to not declawing their cat), he'll tell them he sees nothing wrong with it and it is perfectly fine. He at least hasn't told people they are fine outside (what idiot vets tell people that?!).

And honestly, I can kinda sympathize with vets who say people will just go elsewhere (cause many people will. A lot of people have their heart set on it and you can not convince them otherwise. Trust me, I've tried to convince a few - though my vet sees nothing wrong with declawing he hasn't told me I cannot try to dissuade people. My mom is one of these people. I have at least convinced her if she adopts another cat to adopt one that already had it done anyways).


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

i do agree with the opinion that it shouldn't be done routinely or for no real reason without exhausting every other option. thankfully there are kinder alternatives today like soft paws etc.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

Annamarie said:


> i wonder why so many people think declawing a cat is so cruel but think nothing of amputating a dog's tail or cropping its ears. sure, maybe they do get over it, or maybe they also suffer phantom pain etc.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have issue with all three practises. All are unnecessary changes to an animals body, for no reason other than human vanity or convenience.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Annamarie said:


> and socializing a cat? you've got to be kidding me. as far as the dogs go, she adopted my mom's dog that we had before we got her as her "mom" when she was little, so she had no problem with dogs until that dog passed away and we got another.


Umm, are you saying you don't think cats need socializing or that this cat was socialized with dogs?

Because cats do need to be socialized too. Lily doesnt even hiss at strange cats in her own house, in fact she will walk real close to them because I have socialized her with many different cats, shes used to it. Dogs on the other hand, she has met a few but isnt socialized well with them because I dont know many cat friendly dogs to socialize her with. She did ok with this one Golden Retriever, but she has tried to scratch the face of a Shepherd/Rottie mix before.


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## TeddysMom (Feb 6, 2008)

If you visit any cat forum you'll see that "declawing" is the hottest and most passionate threads..... much like "BYB" threads at this forum. 

I am first and foremost a cat lover. I've had my cats my entire adult life and would never ever declaw them. 

Cats are born with claws. If you don't like that, please don't adopt one. I mean, seriously.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

TeddysMom said:


> Cats are born with claws. If you don't like that, please don't adopt one. I mean, seriously.


Or you can adopt a cat that's already de-clawed. Really, the shelters are full of them. Or you can answer an ad in the paper or craigslist. Plenty to go around. I think it's because usually someone who is intolerant of one natural cat behavior (scratching) is not going to be tolerant of other natural cat behaviors---ones that cannot be "corrected" with surgery (like jumping on the table, or knocking over drinking glasses  ), so de-clawed cats get re-homed more often.


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