# Mini Rottweilers



## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

Oh yeah, you read that right.

My SO and I were talking about them as a joke because when Porter was a puppy someone asked if he was a mini Rottweiler. So I looked it up, and what do you know, someone is really doing that. 

What are people thinking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45uqN0VXNNg

http://carlins.info/


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

looks like theirs pug mixed in, thats an ugly head for a rottwieler.


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

They are making mini boxers and rottweilers. Both have Pug mixed in.


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## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

They look TOO pug to me! Reading the site, there is no actual Rottweiler in them. My pup Flash is staying on the small size so far but looks better than those do. Her nose is longer (I always say her nose is ALL beagle) and she doesn't have a docked tail. The other morning at sunrise she stood on a snow pile watching geese in the sky and in the morning sunlight she looked very much like a little rottweiler (if her tail was docked). I really wished I had a camera at that split second. She was beautiful and had an amazing stance with her chest puffed out.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

That's so ridiculous. If you want a Rott or a Boxer.. GET A ROTT OR A BOXER. Boxers have enough health issues without mixing them with ANOTHER brachcephalic (??SP??) breed like a pug.

If you want a smaller breed then pick a smaller breed or go to a shelter and find a mutt with one of the breeds you desire.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Carlins look kind of like black and tan Puggles.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

They're cute to look at, but I'd never purchase one. I'll just wait till someone else gets tired of theirs!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

There isn't even Rottweiler in the mini rottweilers... ... I... I don't even know what to say. I am gobsmacked.

At least it looks like they do health testing? They mention OFA and I was able to find what I'm pretty sure is one of their dog's records.


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## Sonn84 (Mar 29, 2008)

Seriously! Why do people have to make everything "mini"? If you want a small dog there are plenty of toy breeds out there that are adorable! 

If I want a Rotti it sure isn't because it is miniature.

I saw a few ads on my local classifieds a few weeks back "Mini Great Dane only 15 lbs" WHAT!? "Mini Boxer", "Mini Mastiff Puppies" it just out of control...


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

How stupid. Even if you feel the need to create another mutt breed then why call it a "mini Rottweiler" when it is so clearly NOT Rottweiler in anyway. The lady got all huffy about negative comments too. She says "what if I want a Rottweiler but don't want a big dog?" Um, a pug mix isn't going to fit the bill of a Rottweiler anyway you look at it. Just because it has similar color pattern doesn't make it a Rottweiler. 

I thin the dog is cute but I think all dogs are cute in some way. I just think it is sad that it is the result of a greedy money grubbing idiot that claims to be working to create a new breed.


























*Do they really look like the same breed to you? BIG difference in the head, for sure. I suspect the temperament/personality would be a HUGE let down if people liked the temperament of the Rottweiler.*


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I mentioned in another thread that i saw a link to mini Saint Bernards...I just don't get it. If you want a mini something or other, get a breed that has varying sizes, such as schnauzers, poodles, etc


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

They are some good looking dogs, if I were her I'd dropped the whole mini Rott thing and go with the 'Carlin Pinscher' name to develop the breed and develop the breed the RIGHT way of course I'd also drop the whole mini boxer thing, if I wanted something like that I'd go with a Frenchie.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Inga said:


> How stupid. Even if you feel the need to create another mutt breed then why call it a "mini Rottweiler" when it is so clearly NOT Rottweiler in anyway.


Well, to be fair, the 'official homepage' for the Carlin Pinscher doesn't claim they're mini-Rotts, it just mentions that many people see a resemblance.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

In a word... "ICK"!!!!!!


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## tonisaysss (Jan 18, 2010)

everything is either a "mini" or an "-oodle" now days with a not so tiny price tag. i think it's truly horrifying that people are just picking and choosing breeds to create some goofy, over-priced, defective puppies.

the truly sad thing is that these people are all but running puppy mills. i had an in-depth emailing session when i spoke with a breeding selling 'mini goldens' and 'sheltie-doodles' and she refused to even allow me to come on her property because the living conditions were obviously poor. 

it's so terribly sad. the worst part is that most buyers don't even see this as a bad thing. these so-called breeders even claim their concoctions are healthier than the purebreeds. ugh.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

RaeganW said:


> At least it looks like they do health testing? They mention OFA and I was able to find what I'm pretty sure is one of their dog's records.


Yeah honestly, she does do health testing. Have to give them that. It also seems they place the dogs already spayed/neutered.

I dunno, just some things to think about.


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

Ears look like boxer or boston terrier to me.


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## tonisaysss (Jan 18, 2010)

the dogs honestly look like the love-child of a puggle and min-pin.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Pai said:


> Well, to be fair, the 'official homepage' for the Carlin Pinscher doesn't claim they're mini-Rotts, it just mentions that many people see a resemblance.



Subscribe 
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January 27, 2009

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Mini Rottweiler future stud dog for www.carlins.info or www.minirotts.com 

This woman is planning on using her mutt as a stud dog for mini Rottweiler's of the future.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

This is wong on soooo many levels. I can't even articulate how wrong it is.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Inga said:


> Mini Rottweiler future stud dog for www.carlins.info or www.minirotts.com
> 
> This woman is planning on using her mutt as a stud dog for mini Rottweiler's of the future.


Just because she breeds Carlins doesn't mean she has anything to do with the 'founding group' that's developing them. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but it seems premature to demonize the entire 'proto-breed' just because some less-than-ethical people breed them. Her kennel isn't even listed on the 'official site', so far all we know, she's just a bandwagon-jumper using the breed name.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> This is wong on soooo many levels. I can't even articulate how wrong it is.


I don't understand why this is thought of as wrong?

This breeder has a plan and a goal, and is health testing. So what exactly is the beef here. Just curious.

What I notice, reading these posts it seems that some will take offense to anyone who wants to think out of a prescribed confined box. As I have a background in the field of education, I happen to find that very, very sad.

SOB


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

the only thing wrong I see here is the fact that she's calling them Mini Rottwielers. If she called them Carlins I wouldn't have another thought. But the fact that she's piggy backing and claiming their something they most clearly are not, thats whats wrong.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Thats my problem.. I hate the mini- or -oodle thing.. why not just come up with its own breed name.. the only reason she's touting mini-rotts and mini-boxers is because that will sell more than a Carlin Pinscher.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There's a few things I dislike and/or would need clarified about the breeding program for sure. But there's a lot of things that I like about the breeder that you don't see in your run of the mill designer dog breeder. She health tests, she fixes pups before they're sent out, and she's very honest on her site that they're not purebred, not registered, etc. The part that impressed me most was how upfront she is about health conditions that occur. 

I dunno, it's a start at least. There's probably room for improvement but I see a breeder that is trying at least to produce sound dogs which is saying a lot more than most breeders.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, the more I look into it, it doesn't seem so horrible. I mean, it kinda wiggs me out and in general I am not in favor of developing new breeds, but it does seem like she's trying to get away from the "mini-rott" thing and legitimately establish a new breed.

I'd never buy one, but I wouldn't necessarily condemn someone who did.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Keechak said:


> the only thing wrong I see here is the fact that she's calling them Mini Rottwielers. If she called them Carlins I wouldn't have another thought. But the fact that she's piggy backing and claiming their something they most clearly are not, thats whats wrong.


THAT ^^^^ Is my issue. It isn't even that they are creating a new breed, though I am not sure this breed serves any purpose that others are not already doing. I do have issue calling it a Mini Rottweiler when it is clearly not.


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## Max's Mom (Feb 24, 2009)

Ugh...what next mini Great Danes? In the next century are all dogs going to be mini-doodle dogs?


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

spanielorbust said:


> I don't understand why this is thought of as wrong?
> 
> This breeder has a plan and a goal, and is health testing. So what exactly is the beef here. Just curious.
> 
> ...


The fact that she is saying they are something that they are not is what bothers me. I don't understand the whole "Oh well I like that dog, but i'm scared of it so I want it smaller". You aren't getting the same dog. If you like Rottweilers/Boxers, then get one.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Pai said:


> Carlins look kind of like black and tan Puggles.


I just find the name "Carlins" for a new designer breed ironically funny. It's the pug's French name. To me, every pug is a carlin...


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## Shalonda (Nov 18, 2009)

What is the point of breeding these dogs? I mean they don't have any rottweiler in them so they won't be anything like a rottweiler. They obviously have a lot of pug in them, so their personalities would more likely be like that of a pug. If you want a dog that looks puggy and acts puggy, why not just get a pug?


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

If you want a smaller Rott, you could go with one of these:









Not exactly "mini" at 50-60 lbs., but more like 1/2 scale. their tails are normally docked in NA. It probably wouldn't be too hard to breed the white out of the Entie.


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

What breed is that?


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

That's an Entlebucher Sennenhund; one of the breeds of Swiss mountain dog (Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, Bernese Mountain Dog, and the Appenzeller are the others).


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> If you want a smaller Rott, you could go with one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


actually it would be impossible to breed the white out of the Entie, White is a recessive trait. All Enties are SiSi for that trait. you would have to introduce a breed without white.

The pattern of how the white falls however MIGHT beable to be bred down to a tiny amount.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Keechak said:


> actually it would be impossible to breed the white out of the Entie, White is a recessive trait. All Enties are SiSi for that trait. you would have to introduce a breed without white.
> 
> The pattern of how the white falls however MIGHT beable to be bred down to a tiny amount.


That's fine, I've always been a sucker for a pretty tri-color.


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## AccidentalChef (Jan 7, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> If you want a smaller Rott, you could go with one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That dog is BEAUTIFUL. I love Berners, and met a Greater Swiss Mountain Dog once, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen an Entie in person. If they have a personality like the Berners I've met but not the health problems, I'm in trouble. Just what I need, another breed to add to the wish list...

Oh, and the mini Rotties? Meh... I'll take my mini Rottie (ACD/Rottweiler) shelter mutt over a black and tan pug any day. At least she's got some Rottie personality, and of course that ear to ear smile. The Alaskan Klee Kai is a much better example of how to miniaturize a large breed. Calling a dog with no Rottie heritage at all a mini Rottie is just dishonest.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Shalonda said:


> What is the point of breeding these dogs? I mean they don't have any rottweiler in them so they won't be anything like a rottweiler. They obviously have a lot of pug in them, so their personalities would more likely be like that of a pug. *If you want a dog that looks puggy and acts puggy, why not just get a pug?*


. . . because some of us would never support a breeder breeding dogs bred to the Pug standard. I would support a breeder carefully breeding for a similar personality, size, and coat type, but in a dog with a more natural conformation, as this breeder is doing.

SOB


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

AccidentalChef said:


> That dog is BEAUTIFUL. I love Berners, and met a Greater Swiss Mountain Dog once, but I'm pretty sure I've never seen an Entie in person. If they have a personality like the Berners I've met but not the health problems, I'm in trouble. Just what I need, another breed to add to the wish list...
> 
> Oh, and the mini Rotties? Meh... I'll take my mini Rottie (ACD/Rottweiler) shelter mutt over a black and tan pug any day. At least she's got some Rottie personality, and of course that ear to ear smile. The Alaskan Klee Kai is a much better example of how to miniaturize a large breed. Calling a dog with no Rottie heritage at all a mini Rottie is just dishonest.


Enties are the smallest of the Mountain Dogs, averaging about 35-60 pounds. They have a natural long or natural bob tail. They are much more energetic than the berners and they tend to be more aloof and bit sharper in temperament.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

We have two Entlebucher Sennenhunds who come to the daycare I work at. Cool dogs. VERY athletic.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> That's an Entlebucher Sennenhund; one of the breeds of Swiss mountain dog (great Swiss Mountain Dog, Bernese Mountain dog, and the Appenzeller are the others).


I thought that's what it was! There's a breeder of them in Maine, not too awfully far from where I am in NH.
We'd love to go bigger next time we get a dog, have thought of Berners and Swissies


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Now I hate all the doodles and puggles and what not, as most breed them just for money.
I dont think we need any new breeds at all.

But TBH. This breeder seems pretty decent compared tot he normal breeder of mixes. OFA tested, placed on strict spay/neuter homes. even fed really decent foods.
Seems like she is really trying to make a new breeds. Even states they are mixes and will take a very long time to make a real breed. every one has to start some where, and she seems to be heading in the right path IMO.


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## AccidentalChef (Jan 7, 2010)

Keechak said:


> Enties are the smallest of the Mountain Dogs, averaging about 35-60 pounds. They have a natural long or natural bob tail. They are much more energetic than the berners and they tend to be more aloof and bit sharper in temperament.


I did a little more research on them, and I would love to meet one someday. They sound like amazing dogs.

On another note, I got from Entlebucher Sennenhund to Dan Aykroyd in only 5 mouse clicks. I can't decide whether this proves Wikipedia is completely amazing, or absolutely terrible.


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## elah42 (Feb 12, 2010)

I have a question and would like to clarify from the outset that I am not a dog breed person. As in, I like dogs but am not overly concerned with learning about dog breeds, etc, so I am coming from a place of ignorance.

Do miniature pinschers have doberman pinscher in them? I was under the impression they had separate origins. So would this would be sort of equivalent?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Only vaguely. "Pinscher" is a type of dog, the way "Terrier" and "Setter" are types of dogs. None of the Pinschers, Miniature, Doberman, or German, are really related to one another.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The minpin is actually an older breed than the Doberman, yes. The comparison to these "Carlins" wouldn't hold, regardless, because miniature pinschers are not marketed as "miniature Dobermans." Also, Dobes aren't the only other dog with "pinscher" in the name -- see German pinscher, Affenpinscher, etc.


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## elah42 (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks! As I mentioned, I don't know much about the dog breeds.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

elah42 said:


> Thanks! As I mentioned, I don't know much about the dog breeds.


Fun to learn about them though!


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## hwally (May 24, 2011)

Hello, As you can see I have a pretty mini little dog that reminds me a lot of a rotty His name is Moochie. He nearly 2 years old and as big as he's gonna get. I found him when he was 5 weeks old walking out from under a car in a small town in Mexico. He had a broken leg that had healed at a 45 degree angle and skin problems. The vet told me there was nothing he could do for the leg because it was already set. A good shampoo took care of the skin problem. Hamburger, yoghurt and farm fresh eggs took care of the broken leg. He followed me everywhere I went on our farm and in less than a month his leg had straightened it's self out. We kept him in our prayers too so between the two he's just fine. In my signature photo he's almost two years old he isn't very big but he weighs 35 pounds. He's all muscle and a true joy to be around. We have 6 other dogs on our 12 acre farm, all rescued from the streets. His tail was cut off when we got him and I know nothing of his breeding but he's a pretty cool looking dog. We call him a Rattweiller


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

Therebare mini dalmations too..lmy cousin bought one for and arm and leg.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I love rotties and boxers and wouldn't mind miniature version at all. But of course, they would have to be well bred and have all the health testing and actually LOOK like the original breeds for me to be interested. I think it's a good idea, what if you love the look and the personality, but don't have room for a big dog and not enough time to exercise them for hours?

I see nothing wrong with creating new breeds, as long as it's done properly and with a goal in mind.


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## Shandwill (Jul 23, 2010)

Until someone comes up with a miniature elephant, I'm not buying!  (Imagine, an elephant that is only one or two feet tall BUT can make the same sounds at the same volume as a normal elephant...awesome.)


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I love rotties and boxers and wouldn't mind miniature version at all. But of course, they would have to be well bred and have all the health testing and actually LOOK like the original breeds for me to be interested. I think it's a good idea, what if you love the look and the personality, but don't have room for a big dog and not enough time to exercise them for hours?
> 
> I see nothing wrong with creating new breeds, as long as it's done properly and with a goal in mind.


The mini Rottweilers have no Rottweiler in them. And maybe its just me...but if you like the breed then you should get that breed. There are a lot of breeds I like that don't fit my life style, so I just don't have them.

I don't really mind breeding as long as all the health test are done and they are breeding sound dogs, so that's not really my issue. I just think a Rottweiler is a Rottweiler....not a little lap dog. By making them that small you take away from what the breed is all about.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

TStafford said:


> The mini Rottweilers have no Rottweiler in them. And maybe its just me...but if you like the breed then you should get that breed. There are a lot of breeds I like that don't fit my life style, so I just don't have them.
> 
> I don't really mind breeding as long as all the health test are done and they are breeding sound dogs, so that's not really my issue. I just think a Rottweiler is a Rottweiler....not a little lap dog. By making them that small you take away from what the breed is all about.


Those are good points. I just remember a few years back when I fell in love with both breeds and both were too big and too high energy. I still love both breeds, but not sure I could ever own one. I was reading in a rottie forum just last night where they complained that most rotties these days are very watered down, for "pet homes" and that most people couldn't handle a "proper rottie". It just seems a bit silly to keep the original breed at all cost. I can see the reasoning behind it, because if you love the breed you want to keep it in its original form, but what if that means you eventually get a very limited gene pool to play with, because most people just can't handle the breed? It would be pretty sad to see them go extinct for the sake of keeping the original temparment. I think making them smaller or mellower is a better option.

That could be just me though

I also don't agree with "if the breed doesn't suit you, just don't own it". What if there is no breed that is exactly what I'm looking for? What if I like the characteristics of two different breeds that you can't find in a single breed? (Say the look/size of one breed and the temperament of another). Should I always have to compromise on what dogs I get because mixing breeds is so evil?

And why can't you breed a miniature version of the breed and still keep all the personality? There are loads of small dogs that are tough and guardy.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

I wouldn't mind having a Rottweiler that fit in my backpack, but grows to full size when you soak him in water. Or a very small GSD that sits on my shoulder like a parrot. Or, as I mentioned on another thread, five Papillons that combine into a single Border Collie like Voltron.

I'm sorry, what were we talking about again?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I love rotties and boxers and wouldn't mind miniature version at all. But of course, they would have to be well bred and have all the health testing and actually LOOK like the original breeds for me to be interested. I think it's a good idea, what if you love the look and the personality, but don't have room for a big dog and not enough time to exercise them for hours?
> 
> I see nothing wrong with creating new breeds, as long as it's done properly and with a goal in mind.


I agree in principle, but the trend of miniaturizing breeds makes me very uncomfortable. The mini rottweilers do seem to be somewhat reputable, on the website she does say they don't have any actual Rott in them and she calls them (more appropriately, IMO) Carlin Pinschers. So the mini rottweiler thing seems to be mainly marketing. But I looked up the mini Dalmatians (I don't want to provide a link because I don't want to drive traffic, but they come up quickly with a Google) and was repulsed. 

I think miniaturizing rubs me the wrong way because so often it's taking the dog out, does that make sense? Like, someone can't handle a real Dalmatian but thinks they're pretty, so they get this watered down counterfeit and the real essence of the breed is totally lost. MOST dog breeds these days are watered down for pet homes, most people are stunningly unfit to own a dog of any kind, let alone a large, powerful, strong minded dog. So I think that's a problem, but it's a less terrible problem IMO.


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## 123fraggle (Feb 20, 2009)

If the breed isn't even developed yet, then why the hefty price tag?! Did anyone notice that in the picture of the mini boxers, that the pups were in a wire crate with no floor? Only the puppy bed. I sure hope they only had them like that to pose for the pictures. Not so sure though.


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## hwally (May 24, 2011)

I recommend people look for a rescueable dog if you're not into selling dogs. There's lots out there that need adoption and I'll bet you could find any style of a dog you could want. Dogs are like children, uniquely wonderful, in the eyes of those who care for them. Even if they don't have all the AKC specifications we still see them as perfect. Our Moochie is already a perfect Mini version of a Rottweiler with out all the trouble of a new breed.. In most parts of Mexico where I live there are no animal shelters. We've adopted 7 street dogs and find them wonderful and intelligent beings. We've also organized spay and neuter clinics and have neutered over 600 cats and dogs, for free, in the past 4 years.


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Those are good points. I just remember a few years back when I fell in love with both breeds and both were too big and too high energy. I still love both breeds, but not sure I could ever own one. I was reading in a rottie forum just last night where they complained that most rotties these days are very watered down, for "pet homes" and that most people couldn't handle a "proper rottie". It just seems a bit silly to keep the original breed at all cost. I can see the reasoning behind it, because if you love the breed you want to keep it in its original form, but what if that means you eventually get a very limited gene pool to play with, because most people just can't handle the breed? It would be pretty sad to see them go extinct for the sake of keeping the original temparment. I think making them smaller or mellower is a better option.


I feel there should be show/pet lines and working lines in the breed as far as temperment goes. That doesn't take much away from the breed at all, just makes them easier to for people that aren't as into working the dog to live with. But thats nothing like making them smaller. What I mean by " By making them that small you take away from what the breed is all about" is what good is Pug size "rottweiler" going to do if someone breaks in your home or tries to attack you out on a walk. While Porter isn't as "hard" as Rotties should be I know for a fact that he will protect me. He has wonderful judgement and knows how to stop someone just by looking at them. A Pug size one wouldn't have been able to scare off the guy that was trying to get me into his car...but my Rottweiler size Rottie did. We got Porter because I spent a lot of time alone in a not so good part of town and we wanted a breed that would help me feel safe...and that's what we got in a Rottweiler. IMO shrinking down a breed just isn't right. 





> I also don't agree with "if the breed doesn't suit you, just don't own it". What if there is no breed that is exactly what I'm looking for? What if I like the characteristics of two different breeds that you can't find in a single breed? (Say the look/size of one breed and the temperament of another). Should I always have to compromise on what dogs I get because mixing breeds is so evil?


Go to the shelter and find a dog that does fit your life style. Mixing a Mastiff and a BC because you like both but neither is "perfect" for you isn't going to solve your problem. You may get all the traits from each breed that you like, or you may get tall the ones that made the breed a bad fit. And I was talking about making a breed so small it can't work as the breed shoud, not mixing. While I feel most mix breeding is wrong and done just for money, I also feel that doing for the right reasons is just fine so long as its done by a COE breeder. 



> And why can't you breed a miniature version of the breed and still keep all the personality? There are loads of small dogs that are tough and guardy.


But there aren't any small dogs that can take down an intruder or work as a cop dog (in the terms that a breed like GSDs do).


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

The way I look at it is ....I'm not against mixing of breeds 100%....I you can do it responsibly with the best interest of the future pups...(health tests, # of litters, breeding for a goal, willing to take pups back etc..)..then I can see a reason to mix

Now mixing things to just make them smaller is a little iffy.....

I also think calling something that has been changed so much that its no longer has the same behavior traits or characteristics...basically watering down or mellowing the breed out so much that it can no longer perform its original job or..changing its size so drastically ......to me this is no longer the same breed....so why name it Mini XXX...just make up a new name

Also I don't think there is always going to be breed that fits someone 100%.....because the world is not perfect....and because even if you find a breed that you like everything about....each dog is going to have its own personally, problems, etc etc.....with in that breed

Until we can each grow our dogs in a test tube and hand select every genetic quality possible….your going to make a compromise at some point in the relationship…


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

Pugmom I agree with you 100%. Rottweilers do not really fit my life style. I had to change for Porter. I use to just hang out around the house and was not very active...after getting him I started walking 1 1/2 to 2 hours every day (now that we moved we run in the yard), and doing atleast 30min of training along with going to classes and taking him out a few times a week to meet new people. I also lost 7 lb thanks to him  We picked the breed that was the closest to what we wanted and what we could offer the dog, then changed what we needed to.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

TStafford said:


> Go to the shelter and find a dog that does fit your life style. Mixing a Mastiff and a BC because you like both but neither is "perfect" for you isn't going to solve your problem. You may get all the traits from each breed that you like, or you may get tall the ones that made the breed a bad fit. And I was talking about making a breed so small it can't work as the breed shoud, not mixing. While I feel most mix breeding is wrong and done just for money, I also feel that doing for the right reasons is just fine so long as its done by a COE breeder.


I think the biggest problem to getting the "perfect" mix is that first generation crosses don't cut it. You do actually get a pretty predictable result from a first generation cross, but the later generation crosses vary more. The problem with only doing first generation crosses for twenty years is that you don't actually have twenty years of experience. You have the first year of experience twenty times. Were I inclined to buy a purposefully mixed bred dog, I would be more likely to do so if the breeder's lines are _going_ somewhere rather than just producing pets to fill a market.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> I think the biggest problem to getting the "perfect" mix is that first generation crosses don't cut it. You do actually get a pretty predictable result from a first generation cross, but the later generation crosses vary more. The problem with only doing first generation crosses for twenty years is that you don't actually have twenty years of experience. You have the first year of experience twenty times. Were I inclined to buy a purposefully mixed bred dog, I would be more likely to do so if the breeder's lines are _going_ somewhere rather than just producing pets to fill a market.


Couldn't agree more.


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> I think the biggest problem to getting the "perfect" mix is that first generation crosses don't cut it. You do actually get a pretty predictable result from a first generation cross, but the later generation crosses vary more. The problem with only doing first generation crosses for twenty years is that you don't actually have twenty years of experience. You have the first year of experience twenty times. Were I inclined to buy a purposefully mixed bred dog, I would be more likely to do so if the breeder's lines are _going_ somewhere rather than just producing pets to fill a market.


When I say breeding mixes I mean along the lines of Border Jacks. Which would be more of making a new breed than breeding just mixes I guess.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Independent George said:


> I wouldn't mind having a Rottweiler that fit in my backpack, but grows to full size when you soak him in water. Or a very small GSD that sits on my shoulder like a parrot. Or, as I mentioned on another thread, five Papillons that combine into a single Border Collie like Voltron.
> 
> I'm sorry, what were we talking about again?


You, sir, have made me LOL.


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## wentouch (Aug 22, 2010)

Bam! It's Rufus at almost a year!









He is bigger than we expected at 25 to 30 lbs. He still thinks he is a lapdog, though, since we thought he was too. He is super sweet and a great dog. For more info, search Rufus, as there is another thread I created.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

Now I know that since there is no Rottie in this dog it makes it a little different but...what about poodles?

I mean no one is bothered by there being mini poodles or mini schnauzers. Just curious what you all think about that, I am playing devils advocate here


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Active Dog said:


> Now I know that since there is no Rottie in this dog it makes it a little different but...what about poodles?
> 
> I mean no one is bothered by there being mini poodles or mini schnauzers. Just curious what you all think about that, I am playing devils advocate here


I think if a person truly wanted to create a MINI Rottweiler, they would simply start breeding smaller Rottweiler's and through careful selection and several generations they would get smaller Rottweilers. Just tossing a bunch of other breeds together that happen to produce black and tan pups, isn't a mini Rottweiler. 

If it was done right, I guess I don't have a problem with it. I don't really get the point as there are so many wonderful small breeds already to chose from but some people just can't be satisfied with what already exists. Each to their own.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

> there are so many wonderful small breeds already to chose from but some people just can't be satisfied with what already exists. Each to their own.


Yes, we all do have our own perspectives on this.

Interesting 'shot' (can't be satisfied) at those that don't like the already prescribed list of breeds. Of course I noticed as I am one, so I'll post the opposite perspective.

Personally, I do not find the vast majority of the small breeds that exist 'suitable'. There is no where near 'so many' to choose from. I find that statement misleading, and when I read it I just thought 'you're kidding, right?". That is probably why I have no difficulty with this type of project.

Small breeds of the 'companion' temperaments all tend to be phenotypically exaggerated in some way which I am loathe to accept for many reasons, including ideas of what is 'humane' to support the breeding of, yet I happily accept that others make these choices without calling them out on their particular preferences.

I'd love to see the day when the same tolerance was shown in return for those who think out of the box . . . not holding my breath.

SOB


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> Yes, we all do have our own perspectives on this.
> 
> Interesting 'shot' (can't be satisfied) at those that don't like the already prescribed list of breeds. Of course I noticed as I am one, so I'll post the opposite perspective.
> 
> ...


Maybe I didn't word well. I guess I think of it as there are already hundreds of registrable breeds. If a person cannot find what they like in that, will they find it if they add anther couple hundred or a thousand? Has the person truly researched ALL the current breeds and met them so they know what those breeds offer? This thread was specifically about a "mini Rottweiler" that didn't have any Rottweiler in it so my comment was coming from that perspective. 

I don't have an issue with someone really thinking it through, determining what they "need" in a breed and working toward that goal with health and temperament in mind. Also keeping in mind is finding a good home for the hundreds or thousands of puppies that will be produced before reaching that goal. Also, are there enough other people that want that same thing or are you creating a breed for yourself? That is a whole lot of puppies to find homes for just to come up with one dog for ones self. Guess my rescue background cringes every time I hear someone wanting to do that. I have seen far too much killing of perfectly healthy wonderful dogs just because they were not perfect for said owners. So yeah, my wording might not be right but "satisfied" still comes to mind. I look at dogs and think that every single one of them has the ability to be great if a person would just invest in them with their time and love. 

I never expect more from others then I do from myself. I guess I am lucky to love the dogs I currently have. Admittedly, I looked at Oliver at first thinking he isn't what I would want but I would give him a home until I could find a good home for him. I have since chastised myself for even thinking that way. He has given back everything I have invested in him and more. I could have said he wasn't good enough and just dumped him or not taken him in the first place but I gave him a shot and have never been sorry. I guess I am satisfied with Oliver now that I gave him a chance.

I do agree with you as far as what is "humane" to support. There are many breeds that I do not personally condone the current breed standard on. Oddly enough some of those breeds are breeds that I do like the looks of and the personality of but... I just think it is wrong to create a breed that suffers so much just to exist. Also, I think THAT is why I am so against what seems like random tossing together of current breeds to "create something new." 

Maybe I should start trying to create a true MINI Rottweiler so that I can still handle them when I am very old. I have thought on many occasions that I won't be able to handle them forever and there is no little breed I would like as much. I guess I just thought that I could be satisfied with a Shih Tzu instead of my Rotties. ha ha


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Inga said:


> Maybe I didn't word well. I guess I think of it as there are already hundreds of registrable breeds. If a person cannot find what they like in that, will they find it if they add anther couple hundred or a thousand? Has the person truly researched ALL the current breeds and met them so they know what those breeds offer?


I come at this from a different angle. I am not someone who anybody could ever give 'their' list to, and say 'you have to pick from this list'. The first question in my head would be 'what about this other idea' and 'why your list'. That has been lifelong (yes I was a headache to parent).

I have yet to be given a reason 'why' I should look at a list of 'registerable' breeds first. Registered dogs have not been a tradition where I live, and I can't see why I should want to jump on the bandwagon of support for such, when the system has yet to prove itself. I see both advantages AND disadvantages to it and believe we should all be free to choose, yet the 'choice' to pay for a mix often comes with condemnation JUST for that reason alone.

In regards to researching ALL the current breeds - I can tell you that absolutely I have, and not a one holds up to the small mixes that I was raised with, that I have taken in in my lifetime, and that I currently have - so why would I settle on a breed? Again, the exaggerations in established companion breeds are very off-putting (especially coats, but there is much more). There is the occasional very rare breed that does not have breeders in North America that sound like a possible fit to the moderate 15 or so pound easy care mutt-type that I like, BUT I would always rescue or purchase from my community (have to be able to know the breeder) before I would import.




Inga said:


> This thread was specifically about a "mini Rottweiler" that didn't have any Rottweiler in it so my comment was coming from that perspective. . . . .


Is it the 'Rottweiler' name? I really have to say I don't get that. Just sayin', as I know I don't have to and I do understand that we all have things that rub us wrong just cuz they do. 

SOB


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> BUT I would always rescue or purchase from my community (have to be able to know the breeder) before I would import.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually I am a HUGE supporter of rescue myself and THAT is why I am against people breeding Willy Nilly. Too many wonderful dogs, mixes and Purebred dogs dying because of peoples poor decisions. 

As far as it being the Rottweiler name? No, not at all. I myself would not mind having a miniature of my dogs as I get old and can't deal with them. The breed in question however, had no Rottweiler in it at all. It isn't the color that I fell in love with (though I love it) and it isn't the name I fell in love with (never actually liked the name) it is the character, personality, temperament of the breed I love. To me a miniature is the same proportions, same temperament and personality just smaller. Not a dog that happens to kind of resemble the breed but has none of said breed in it.

I am not opposed to thinking outside the box either but I am against doing so at the cost of millions of companion animals dying each year. I WISH for certain things to be so but I wouldn't do them because it would cost animals overall. As far as finding a mix breed to your liking. Bless you for doing so. There are so many fantastic dogs at shelters all over. My Honey boy Oliver was one of them.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Inga said:


> Actually I am a HUGE supporter of rescue myself and THAT is why I am against people breeding Willy Nilly. Too many wonderful dogs, mixes and Purebred dogs dying because of peoples poor decisions. .


I am agaisnt 'willy nilly' breeding myself, but I can't pretend that those that breed to the politically correct specifications that are often touted can even begin to fill the demand for dogs. Nor do I ever decide a breeder is a 'willy nillier' simply by the name of what they produce, or if it is pure or mixed.

Canada has an estimated population of 7 million dogs. Yearly, that means over 600 000 new dogs are being sought. Only 66 000 dogs are registered yearly, and our rescues take in ~70 000. That is a huge void (over 400 000) that have to be bred WHERE there is not a purebred foothold large enough to do so, even if that was what was wanted. Blanket condemning all those not breeding pure as 'willy nilly' breeders because they don't meet an imaginary politically correct criteria (that on many threads is admitted no breeder can meet), serves no purpose and is in fact harmful.



Inga said:


> I am not opposed to thinking outside the box either but I am against doing so at the cost of millions of companion animals dying each year..


This is where we would disagree. I do not and will not buy into the idea that a pup bred causes one to die in a shelter and those wanting a mix can just go find one there as there are 'plenty'. The numbers just don't add up. Wish it was so simple. I also believe the promotion of THAT idea does incredible harm to the world of dogs in many, many ways.

Encouraging rescue does not have to involve the condemnation of most breeders. In fact, this is one of my 'things that rub' the wrong way.

More to the actual point, breeders are not a significant part of the problem. If we are to focus on an aspect of the problem that will make the largest impact it is, with out question, the humane societies model of operation. The best place to start is with the knowledge that community outreach and pro animal models have consistently *lead* communities toward manageable intakes, lower kill rates and had major impact.

SOB


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I never said I condemn breeders in general. I do condemn loose breeding practices (breeding for a profit rather then what is good for the dog) I condemn people who breed without first having more then enough homes lined up for the amount of puppies produced. I do not believe we have a shortage of dogs, maybe a shortage of the type of dogs people want but not an over all shortage. I can't believe that as long as we are killing several million of them each year in the United States alone. That said, none of this is what this thread is about so I guess that is enough on this topic.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Inga said:


> I never said I condemn breeders in general..


To be clear, I did not say you did.  The point I was making, though, was about playing the blame game at all . . . . serves no useful purpose.



Inga said:


> I do condemn loose breeding practices (breeding for a profit rather then what is good for the dog) I condemn people who breed without first having more then enough homes lined up for the amount of puppies produced. .


If you look at breeders and practices this is condemning most breeders . . . which is what I mentioned. The vast majority of small breed breeders, BTW, will not keep a waiting list for a ton of reasons that are easy to understand. Please, if you can tell me who is breeding 'for the good of the dog', as for the most part I don't believe it is being done in the closed registry system . . . . so who then?



Inga said:


> I do not believe we have a shortage of dogs, maybe a shortage of the type of dogs people want but not an over all shortage..


Again to be clear, stating that there is not an 'overpopulation' by no means implies that there is a shortage. There is a competitive market, and breeders and rescues of all types are vying to fill their share of the 'demand' for dogs. The numbers show that there are 4 or 5 times enough homes for dogs that need to be homed from rescue. That does not mean there is a shortage either . . . . it does mean that rescues can't blame overpopulation as the cause of the killing. They might be able to say they believe the competition is too tough (rescue dog vs. puppy) but I don't buy it. If they were to take a leadership role in the community, that competion would also diminish.



Inga said:


> I can't believe that as long as we are killing several million of them each year in the United States alone..


I can, especially when much of the killing has to do with a lack of effort into finding homes for those dogs. http://yesbiscuit.wordpress.com/ Understanding the Epidemic of Cruelty - http://www.nathanwinograd.com/?p=5864



Inga said:


> That said, none of this is what this thread is about so I guess that is enough on this topic.


The conversation has moved on . . . but if you'd rather not get into this I understand. We obviously have very different ideas.

SOB


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