# Getting started as a trainer



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I've been a bit MIA on this forum for a while, but there have been some pretty cool developments in my world. After working my way up to a position handling the most difficult Behavior cases in the shelter I still wanted to learn more. The shelter runs a dog training certification program and I decided to jump in. I passed! More than a little thanks goes to this forum and it's amazing members. It's where I got my foundation in anything "not Cesar Milan". I guess hours arguing on the internet can be valuable after all!

Anyways, I have a question for the professionals and serious amateurs here. How did you get started in dog training? I'm still very much a beginner in the field so I was thinking of offering free sessions to acquaintances, fiends and family to get a better footing. What other avenues should I be exploring? Is there an apprenticeship program? How likely would it be to find a mentor? Maybe assistant teaching classes?

I'm really excited about this next phase but could definitely use some guidance... Ideas?

Thanks so much everyone!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Well it's possible, but I think you'll have a tough time finding a mentor unless you have a long-standing relationship with a guru-type of trainer. People just aren't apt to give away all of their trade secrets to young upstarts without faith in their abilities and the direction they'll take once schooled. Like I said it's possible, but difficult for most would-be trainers, although it's a fine way to go if you can find the right fit.

I'd look into assisting with classes to get experience working with people and their dogs, assuming you've primarily worked with only dogs thus far. Perhaps join a training club or all-breed club that offers public classes and volunteer your services to them. Once you've built up some hours there you could pursue a CPDT certification, which will likely help with gainful employment or starting your own training establishment if that's what you hope for.

I'm relatively familiar with your posts in the time you've spent here in the past, and you seem to have a positive attitude, a good sense of reasoning, and good communication skills. Those are assets, and I'm sure they'll serve you well in any future endeavours. Good luck.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Not a professional or serious amateur, but I wanted to say congratulations! Sounds like an exciting future for you.



> Perhaps join a training club or all-breed club that offers public classes and volunteer your services to them.


This ^^^ was my first thought. I belong to a training club and the beginner classes all seem to have two instructors - one is typically certified or very experienced, and the other, I don't really know, but assume they're either serious amateurs or individuals working towards certification. If you're interested, I could ask next week.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Congrats!

I was actually going to mention it to you a few times.... but I think a certain shelter will likely be looking for a new behaviorist soon.... if they're not already.

I would also consider contacting some of the trainers you already know about mentoring/assisting with teaching. You could also offer your services to rescues in the city to start building a name for yourself. God knows there's enough rescues that need the help around here. (not necessarily because they all look to bad trainers, but there's just a lot of rescues!)


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

well a way to get more hands on exposure to training and assistance in funding for furthering your education, you could grab a job at a retail that offers pet training and go through their course and most of them will assist in you getting outside certifications even if its just PTO so you can attend the classes (when you think about it your getting paid to attend that way) sometimes they will help pay for the actual course or travel etc. a lot of pet store trainers have a bad rap, and thats because a lot of them take their in store accreditation then just go with what they learned there. Some of us keep going learning reading striving to get better and get better results. its not a bad way to ensure a steady paycheck and get hands on experience working with an experienced trainer. and some certifications require verifiable time as a lead instructor, and a corporate environment definitely can provide that the paper work requirements tend to be pretty rigid.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I got certified, then set up a website and it went from there. The certification is of no use to me, other than as a foot in the door, because it was all VERY basic, and it was very heavy handed training, which isn't how I train at all. But the course I did is the only accredited course in Australia, which I could then put on my website and I've had many clients tell me that they chose me because I'm a "certified trainer" and they wanted a "proper trainer". 

I have a friend who is a web designer, so I got a cool website for free for my birthday and saved lots of money there, and I do SEO for my hubby's business, so I did my own SEO. These days you can get cheap, nice websites though, and anyone can learn to do basic SEO.

I also knew quite a bit about running a business because hubby runs a business from home, so I knew all about how to talk to clients to make them feel good about themselves and not be confronting even when they do things wrong, replying to emails as quickly as possible, giving free advice occasionally, etc.

I didn't offer any free sessions to anyone, because we don't know anyone who owns dogs. I just set up the website and let it sit there and get picked up by Google. It took about 6 months to get my first enquiry, which is normal for a new website, and then gradually got more and more, and then got some good reviews and that helped, then a client who became a friend recommended me to everyone she knew and handed out business cards to everyone etc.

These days I get as much work as I would ever want, and I have now been going for 3 years.

I still read here in the forums, fb groups, books, and attend seminars and workshops to continue to improve as a trainer. I also try to keep up to date on the science of behaviour and training.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

oh and by the way congratz and good luck, its the best job in the world hands down.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I train here and there. Looking to get proper certification via Karen Pryor Academy once I am done with my undergrad.

I started by working at a pet boutique and my boss was okay with me offering my services there. I also volunteered my services to local rescues. I also do small-time boarding and I give discounts to people who do training sessions with me.

Right now I am only certified with the KPA Foundations program, so I always stress that I am still learning and don't charge as much. It's a great way to gain more experience


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I would try to assist with classes at a local facility and move up to teaching classes on your own.

Kennel clubs are also a good place to start, because IME each person teaches a different class and there are lots of opportunities. At a private facility the main trainer might teach most of the classes or already have everything scheduled out without a lot of room to add new people.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Thanks so much for all your ideas! The certification has a sound scientific basis, of course it's nothing like a 4 year degree so it's definitely a starting point. Like ill fuzzy mentioned I just wanted something to show I knew about the field....

The Karen Pryor Foundations course sounds really interesting. online is nice, though it doesn't give a hands on element that's so important. I was thinking of trying to work up to my CPDT - in store training could be pretty valuable in getting hours for qualification. I got super lucky in having someone take an interest in me. They've been such an awesome help... I'm home for the holidays though so I can't do much shadowing from here.

Lots of avenues to pursue. Thanks so much everyone!


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

aiw said:


> Thanks so much for all your ideas! The certification has a sound scientific basis, of course it's nothing like a 4 year degree so it's definitely a starting point. Like ill fuzzy mentioned I just wanted something to show I knew about the field....
> 
> The Karen Pryor Foundations course sounds really interesting. online is nice, though it doesn't give a hands on element that's so important. I was thinking of trying to work up to my CPDT - in store training could be pretty valuable in getting hours for qualification. I got super lucky in having someone take an interest in me. They've been such an awesome help... I'm home for the holidays though so I can't do much shadowing from here.
> 
> Lots of avenues to pursue. Thanks so much everyone!


KPA Foundations is online only, but the Pet Trainer certification is a combination of online + seminars that you have to be able to go to.

The great thing about KPA is that you learn not only about dogs, but also about how to train just about any other animal 

Another option is Jean Donaldson's certification program. That one is completely online, however.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

At the beginning of this year I reached out to the pair of trainers who I had taken all of the classes with my dogs through to ask them about learning opportunities. I had a background in horse training but circumstances changed and I was enjoying training and competing with my dogs so much that I was interested in learning more about the dog training world. They were immediately welcoming to me and I started assisting in their classes right away (for no compensation other than being able to attend any of their classes with my dogs for free). It helped that I already had a relationship with them, I understood their style since they pretty much taught me and they could see what I had already done with my dogs. This fall I started teaching my own classes through their business. They have been really great mentors and it's been going great so far, I teach 2-3 nights a week for them and that has allowed them to focus more on offering daytime services. 

It definitely helped that I already had a good relationship with them as a former student. What I think also helped was being involved with my dogs in dog sports and showing off my abilities that way. Neither of them do/know agility so they were really excited about what my agility experience would help bring to the business. I also belong to the local agility club and am very active there and have started assisting in the classes there as well. 

I think that if you could find a mentor that would be my recommendation of the route to go first. See first hand if it's something you really want to do. Assisting is great, I think you gain a lot of insight by assisting. I was constantly making mental notes of how the trainer handled this or that and what advice was given for a particular type of dog and why. Like others have said, clubs can be great. At my agility club there is a small group of people who teach/assist and after putting in my time and building a relationship with people I have been able to jump into that group. I also think doing the volunteer work at shelters can give you so much experience with different types of dogs from different backgrounds. If possible, maybe consider making some type of portfolio, dogs you have worked with, how long, before/after behaviors, maybe do some videos of your sessions, something to show either prospective customers/employers/mentors what you can do.

As far as education and certifications go....I may have a slightly biased opinion based on past experiences but I haven't gone that route yet and not sure whether or not I will. I spent a heck of a ton of money on a horse training education and got into the real world and found out that it didn't matter that much and experience was more important than education. That getting taken under the wing of someone already established in the industry was more valuable (and way less expensive) than my fancy education. So that's what route I went with dog training. Not to say that I'm not continuing my education still...I take online classes at the Fenzi Sport Academy, attend seminars and continue taking classes with my own dogs from trainers I admire and respect.

I am in no way saying that that is the best/right option, it's just the one I chose and that's my reasoning. I will also admit that I hit the ultimate jackpot in my situation where all the stars just happened to align perfectly, I inquired about learning more at the same time they were beginning plans for expanding their business.

Whatever route(s) you decide I wish you good luck. It's been fun so far.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I have nothing useful to add. Just want to say HI and YAY.  I'm very glad things are going well for you!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

congratulations sending good thoughts your way.... 
Got the military dog training and yes on the first day I thought "they were idiots" lol ... not my style so that is something to consider when looking for a learning training program to commit to.. Military couldn't fire or fail me for not being heavy handed and manhandling as they thought was correct so I could still do it my way to get results and put up with being yelled and screamed at for not doing it their way .. lol .. Same happen for me in the civilian world.. I was very active with my own dogs in local training center at a time where reactive dogs were turned away from joining classes.. Reactive dogs don't bother me, So they asked me to help during their classes and private lessons with reactive dogs and their owners And that is how everything got started on the civilian side. it's rewarding , I always know the dogs will be just fine being given the opportunity to win in learning.. but being able to reach the owners to know their dogs needs and the owners feel empowered and hopeful and not helpless always made the politics of dog training worth it..


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> As far as education and certifications go....I may have a slightly biased opinion based on past experiences but I haven't gone that route yet and not sure whether or not I will. I spent a heck of a ton of money on a horse training education and got into the real world and found out that it didn't matter that much and experience was more important than education.


Agree fully,

Started way before certifications etc, I just trained as many dogs as I could. 50 years and 90 breeds later I believe there are still many dogs out there that I could learn from.

But that's just me, it's a different world out now. I'm sure there's an outhouse building certification program.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I would love to train one day. Still working on getting my foot in the door...

I have personally not been impressed at all by the certified trainers I've been around. My worst trainer experience was with a CPDT trainer. I feel like you're either dog savvy or you just aren't and it's surprising how many dog trainers aren't dog savvy. Personally, I look for trainers with titles on their dogs and a lot of experience in the dog world.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Sounds like hands on the is the general consensus. Makes sense. One challenge I do face is not having a dog of my own to title. My life is so unsettled I'm not sure it's wise... Plus I'm really gun shy after Pete. I don't mind making all the accommodations (dog friendly rentals etc) I'm just worried about ending up in another situation where it's not enough. I really don't want to fail another animal. So I'll hold off until I've got a better view of the future.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

tons of opportunity that you don't have to have a dog.. you don't have to touch them or handle them... go to a dog show, go to a dog park, and just sit and watch them, pay attention to what they do, how they respond to each other and situations, what direction they go when the owner, handler does anything or nothing.. watch their faces, their eyes, their movement.. thing about working with the dogs is knowing what is a natural response , direction, behavior to them.. having that sense of getting in front of what (will come next) to know it before the dog knows its ... and encourage or change it to what or where you need them to go.

Thing is when you are working with your own animal you can't see them.. like you can from sitting off at a distance to see the full body and the surroundings they are moving and reacting in...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well not disagreeing with OP's personal feelings etc, just adding something to think about for the future a trainer having a well trained dog is not a bad program. How better to show one's skills.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

I gotta agree wvasko, I pick up a lot of contacts on my days off just out working my dog. They like the thought of being able to walk their dog with one finger instead of wrapping the leash halfway up their arm. all certificates aside if your dogs act like wild animals in public no one is going to want you as a trainer.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

What about fostering? If that is doable for you right now (or in the future) there is so much you can do with a foster dog. And that route gives you experience with more and different types of dogs too. Depending on how long you have a foster dog you could certainly do things with them beyond just developing good public behavior, CGC, therapy certifications, trick dog titles, rally obedience. Then document each dogs progress in a portfolio and you have something to show people.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yes indeed, it's different when you can get a dog training certificate online without actually even touching a dog, so I've heard, actually *"Absolutely Mind-Boggling"*


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I don't disagree at all about having your own dog.. but if it's not possible right now as the OP said.. it shouldn't mean you can't be working towards your future of being a dog trainer with what you can do right now... that is where I'm coming from..


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I have personally not been impressed at all by the certified trainers I've been around. My worst trainer experience was with a CPDT trainer. I feel like you're either dog savvy or you just aren't and it's surprising how many dog trainers aren't dog savvy. Personally, I look for trainers with titles on their dogs and a lot of experience in the dog world.


This ^^^^^

I want to see proof that someone can work with dogs and work dogs well. High level titles tell me someone can walk the walk instead of just talking the talk. If someone has a boat load of certificates and zero working titles...they are just talking the talk. Laurelin nails with with being dog savvy...being able to read dogs well is a gift. Being able to feel what a dog is telling you and then tailoring the training at that moment is a product of being dog savvy, training dogs for years, and listening to what the dog is saying. To be an effective dog trainer...you can't train by recipe or by flow chart and unfortunately, that's where a lot of dog training is heading. 

I'm going to quote something from the Naughty Dogge (since I have a mad girl dog training crush on her) 



> Lets be honest: There are good trainers, okay trainers, and bad trainers.
> 
> Regardless of tool used, good trainers have happy and trained dogs and poor trainers don't. They might have one of the two; happy or trained.
> 
> ...


You don't take a couple of online classes and **VOILA!** you're a dog trainer! This goes with any job...you need to put your time in the trenches and get your hands dirty to really learn what you need to know. 

I teach Rally Obedience, CGC, and Therapy dog Classes where I train. I had been working/training my own rottweiler for about 6 years before the owner of the facility asked me to step in and be a substitute teacher for their Rally/CGC/Therapy dog teacher who had broken her ankle. Then the teacher decided she wanted to step down because she liked the free time she had and she could watch her daughter's new baby instead. So I stayed...and that was about 7 years ago. I'm still learning with each class that I teach....I'll always be learning about training other's dogs. I don't have a single dog training academy certificate...but my own dogs, their work ethic, and their accomplishments are what make people want to take rally classes from me.

Oh...and I'm going to add in one big thing that no one really thinks about until they get into being a dog trainer. You really aren't training the dogs....you're really training the people at the end of the leash. I know some incredible dog handlers with OTCH/MACHs who borderline suck at being dog trainers because they have really awful people skills. So...if **collective you** are thinking about being a dog trainer...you have to have great people skills and you have to be able to deal with "difficult personalities" and be able to successfully manage people and their personality quirks. You have to deal with people who "know it all", you have to deal with people who listen to you but don't hear you, you have to be able to deal with the people you tell the same exact thing every single time you see them, you have to be able to deal with people who are not stable. So, on top of being dog savvy...you have to be people savvy. If you don't like people or have problems dealing with people...professional dog training may not be the gig for you.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

aiw said:


> One challenge I do face is not having a dog of my own to title.


 Titles on your own dog is a good thing. But they aren't the be-all end-all of credibility. People can get titles by using some pretty crappy methods if they're persistent enough, so I'd be reluctant to put all of my eggs in that basket.

One benefit of having your own dog, is for use as a demo dog to show students some of the pitfalls, the right way and the wrong way of doing things, optional or alternative methods when conventional methods aren't working, what the finished product should look like, etc. Pulling a student's dog for demo purposes can work sometimes, but it can be a bit of a gamble in certain circumstances. Especially in the more advanced levels. This is where having your own dog to use as an example will pay dividends, and not cause undue embarrassment to either you, the student, or their dog.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Titles on your own dog is a good thing. But they aren't the be-all end-all of credibility. People can get titles by using some pretty crappy methods if they're persistent enough, so I'd be reluctant to put all of my eggs in that basket.


Agreed... but I watch people and their dogs work as well. I watch relationships between the trainer and their own personal dog. If a dog has UDX25 but looks like it wants to die every moment it's with it's handler....the dog tells me all I need to know.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> Oh...and I'm going to add in one big thing that no one really thinks about until they get into being a dog trainer. You really aren't training the dogs....you're really training the people at the end of the leash. I know some incredible dog handlers with OTCH/MACHs who borderline suck at being dog trainers because they have really awful people skills. So...if **collective you** are thinking about being a dog trainer...you have to have great people skills and you have to be able to deal with "difficult personalities" and be able to successfully manage people and their personality quirks. You have to deal with people who "know it all", you have to deal with people who listen to you but don't hear you, you have to be able to deal with the people you tell the same exact thing every single time you see them, you have to be able to deal with people who are not stable. So, on top of being dog savvy...you have to be people savvy. If you don't like people or have problems dealing with people...professional dog training may not be the gig for you.


This^^!! So so so much this!! I'm not teaching the dogs anything in my classes. I'm teaching the humans how to teach their dogs. Some get it, some just don't. Some will put in all sorts of time and effort and actually practice, some do nothing and can't understand why their dog isn't getting it, I mean they took it to school and everything! Coming from the horse industry with an animal training background, dog training is even more about people training. Which is why I am attempting to step into it cautiously rather than jumping in head first like my first endeavor (keeping my full time day job and only teaching part time). I know that I love training and competing with my dogs. But will I love teaching other people how to do things with their dogs? So far, I do. I'm enjoying it a lot. But I'm new and have had really great classes so far.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Yup...you have to be able to "do" people and do people well to be a dog trainer. If public speaking makes you want to vomit, seriously reconsider being a dog trainer. Most of my classes are around 6 - 8 people...and I talk for a hour at a whack. 

Thank god I have 15 years under my belt as a landscape designer because that has taught me how to deal with all types of people...very difficult ones included. Diffuse, diffuse, diffuse! LOL


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

and lots of listening, asking questions and listening.. when it comes to finding solutions... owners don't realize how much internal instinct that they had and just didn't listen to it at the time of making poor choices.. A dog can not move forward if the current ideas/behaviors of the owners don't evolve for the dog as well..


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> I watch relationships between the trainer and their own personal dog. If a dog has UDX25 but looks like it wants to die every moment it's with it's handler....the dog tells me all I need to know.


 Dogs have an uncanny ability to "squeal" on their handlers, don't they. In more ways than one. All it takes is a keen sense of observation, and you've got the whole story from prologue to epilogue.



kadylady said:


> I'm teaching the humans how to teach their dogs. Some get it, some just don't. Some will put in all sorts of time and effort and actually practice, some do nothing and can't understand why their dog isn't getting it,


 Leading a class is 99% mental. The other half is physical, lol. Motivation, and how to culture it in the students so they achieve success, is key. R+ can and usually does work wonders on people too.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

> Dogs have an uncanny ability to "squeal" on their handlers, don't they. In more ways than one. All it takes is a keen sense of observation, and you've got the whole story from prologue to epilogue.


Absolutely....in my rally drop in classes, there is a woman who comes with her Golden male and she acts like he's the second coming of Christ at the age of two. She's a difficult personality and she drives a lot of those who attends the drop in nuts. We all know about how amazing this dog's sperm count is! **GAG** She puts on the "happy, happy, happy" trainer face when she's in class. But earlier this fall....her dog started to avoid finding his front position. And, when he did...he cringed his way into it. She was all "I don't know why he's doing that!" Yeah...I'm sure you don't know why your dog is refusing to offer you front position that was more or less fine the matter of a couple of weeks ago. :/ Too much demanding of perfection on a dog that doesn't have the foundation to give you that perfection maybe??


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I am not saying titles are everything. I just see a difference personally between the dog trainers I've been to that have that kind of experience vs those that do not. I think it just pushes you towards a definite and often more precise kind of goal. I also know more about a trainer if they have titles. The person with the highest titles is not always the best trainer but its a starting point. 

The people thing is very true and I can see that just going through classes. Some people just don't have the intuition of training at all and that's hard to teach around because its not a specific thing that is a problem at all. 

You can definitely learn better and other techniques and improve timing and skill. I think that best comes with training your dogs and also watching others train their dogs in person over the course of a long time. I've learned a lot from my classmates' dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I'm still learning with each class that I teach....I'll always be learning about training other's dogs


Above says it all.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

I agree, I learn almost as much from each student as they learn from me. every person is a little different, and each person I work with gives me more insight in how to "handle" an owner. If my job was just to train dogs it would be simple. 

for example John doe comes to class and while I had a great 45 second stay from his puppy before he left class he comes back unable to get the dog to stay for more than a few seconds. I ask him to demonstrate how he's doing it, once he shows me that he's telling the dog to stay then walking away immediately, I again explain how he wants to go for duration first then distractions then finally after nailing both duration and distraction he can start going for distance. he simply says "well this is how I train it" obviously he doesn't really want to learn a different method, he simply wants to attend class to say his dog has taken training classes. So in a public class you learn to limit how much time you spend re-working a non-student attendee because you need to work with everyone. you do the best you can through repetition and hope some of it penetrates, by working other students in the class to better times and distraction levels, the non-student usually begins doing the method shown because every ones else's dog is doing it better than theirs. rather than directly re-explaining you let the other students results do the work for you. 

Its one of those things that was never covered in any of the multiple trainer training lessons I have gone to, I only learned it from hands on. some people don't like to learn directly but will take directions you are giving others. Why you would sign up for a trainer and not use direct input I don't know but it does happen.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

As for titles... meh If thats your thing its great, its not my thing. my thing is having a dog that shows great behavior and having fun with them. I am a professional trainer sure it probably hurts my overall sales not to have some sort of title somewhere, probably by 1% or so. The majority of my classes are sold through word of mouth and recommendations by previous students. I like to let my results speak for themselves (read as I am too lazy to bother getting titles, because competition has no interest for me). Maybe with my next dog i'll try something like that, but for now with 3 dogs I just like having happy go lucky goofballs that make me laugh and don't eat my sneakers. in theory my next dog will hopefully be a breed more high energy and require me to work them more so I wont have the luxury of simple training. the hardest part of shar pei is socialization. everything else is a breeze.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Interesting debate about the importance of titles. I agree it seems strange to be a dog trainer with no dog! It's the reality though right now. Getting a dog when I don't know where I'll be even a year from now would be using it unfairly for my own ends. I did foster for a while, and will likely start up again after the holidays. The nice thing about the shelter was getting so much hands on experience - and with such variety of issues and temperaments. It does seem like hands on experience is crucial. What does all the scientific terminology matter if you can't deliver in person!

For the people... I'm actually not worried about that side. There is always material to learn so I expect to be honing skills constantly through the years, I'm coming from a Pretty intensive customer service job though. I quite enjoy the interactive aspect of my current job and it's appealing that dog training will be a extension of that. I mean, no one loves dealing with difficult personalities but It's the price you pay for a social job - which seems to suit me.

Fostering is a great idea. So is just networking at the park etc. I'm considering part time hours at doggy daycare, dog walking, shelter work or other interactive jobs. Just to keep learning to read and handle dogs. I'll still be doing consultations where I can. Got one scheduled actually! Assistant training at a school would be perfect. Lots of good ideas, I've been pretty lucky with people (including those here!) offering their time and expertise.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Depends what sort of clientèle you want too.

For instance, the average pet dog owner probably would care if your're certified, and probably wouldn't care (or not care *much*) that your dog has agility titles etc.

Someone looking for an agility trainer would rely heavily on the titles, and probably not care about certification. Same for obedience and other sports.

I mostly work with the average pet dog owner, who just need pointers on how to do really basic stuff.

I've also noticed most people in here say they wouldn't send their dogs away for boarding and training, because they are picky about how their dogs are trained and they enjoy training their own dogs etc. But a lot of average pet dog owners aren't picky about it (as long as it's reward based) and are happy to send their dog away for training. They don't want to spend that much time training their dog, they just want a well behaved pet. So opinions on here doesn't necessarily reflect the opinions of the general public, so keep in mind who you are trying to sell your services to.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

aiw said:


> Sounds like hands on the is the general consensus. Makes sense. One challenge I do face is not having a dog of my own to title. My life is so unsettled I'm not sure it's wise... Plus I'm really gun shy after Pete. I don't mind making all the accommodations (dog friendly rentals etc) I'm just worried about ending up in another situation where it's not enough. I really don't want to fail another animal. So I'll hold off until I've got a better view of the future.


You could borrow Snowball...  

But if you're worried about not having experience, I still think getting in touch with a rescue (or several) is a good idea, especially if you're able to foster.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Depends what sort of clientèle you want too.
> 
> For instance, the average pet dog owner probably would care if your're certified, and probably wouldn't care (or not care *much*) that your dog has agility titles etc.
> 
> ...


Good point! I'm pretty much entirely self taught (with the addition of shelter work and fostering) so it's nice to just have something showing *some* skill. Certainly for now I'm looking to coach the average dog owner. Being a beginner my skill set isn't honed enough yet to work with more advanced handlers - but I feel pretty confident helping out with the basics. Lots more to learn, hopefully I'll expand as my skill set grows.

And LOL at taking snowball!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Someone looking for an agility trainer would rely heavily on the titles, and probably not care about certification. Same for obedience and other sports.
> 
> I mostly work with the average pet dog owner, who just need pointers on how to do really basic stuff.


That's the inherent beauty of obedience, and getting ob titles. It contains all of the "really basic stuff", elements that for the most part seem to be absent in other dog sports such as agility, which I personally view as more for fun and entertainment. In obedience, stand for exam teaches good greeting manners, heel on leash reflects on everyday LLW, stays are useful for mat work while eating dinner for example, recall is a common issue with pet folks, figure 8 demonstrates an ability to walk politely through crowded areas. In the advanced levels, retrieve shows that the dog will let go of an item on cue, and drop on recall can be used in emergency situations. All of these have practical, real-world applications. 

In my opinion, competition obedience is masterfully designed to show that the trainer and dog have successfully worked through the everyday training issues experienced by everyone. Titles are merely an ink and paper affirmation of that. They are, indeed, 'certification' of a different kind that is equally at home in a personal portfolio along with any of the other, more conventional certifications.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

It also shows the average dog owner just what is possible with dogs surounded by distractions (obed ring). I actually don't have a %age of the amount of owners through the years that when dropping dogs off say/think their dogs are stupid. I will hazard a guess of at least 50%. That's sad.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

petpeeve said:


> That's the inherent beauty of obedience, and getting ob titles. It contains all of the "really basic stuff", elements that for the most part seem to be absent in other dog sports such as agility, which I personally view as more for fun and entertainment. In obedience, stand for exam teaches good greeting manners, heel on leash reflects on everyday LLW, stays are useful for mat work while eating dinner for example, recall is a common issue with pet folks, figure 8 demonstrates an ability to walk politely through crowded areas. In the advanced levels, retrieve shows that the dog will let go of an item on cue, and drop on recall can be used in emergency situations. All of these have practical, real-world applications.
> 
> In my opinion, competition obedience is masterfully designed to show that the trainer and dog have successfully worked through the everyday training issues experienced by everyone. Titles are merely an ink and paper affirmation of that. They are, indeed, 'certification' of a different kind that is equally at home in a personal portfolio along with any of the other, more conventional certifications.


Personally, I find competition obedience about as fun as watching paint dry and when I go to trials I see a lot of dogs that aren't working happily in obedience. I see a lot that are but a lot that aren't. The obedience club I went to was pretty terrible and out dated training methods wise. 

I don't really see competition obedience being important to pet owners- they don't need that level of precision. But I do respect it and I know if someone has put an OTCH on a dog then they have done something very incredible that most trainers won't achieve. 

I see a lot more practicality for what I do with my dogs in agility. High level agility involves a LOT of training and precise training and done at speed and with a dog that is often higher than a kite and lots of distractions. It takes years to train a really competitive agility dog well. You should see some of the distance training on the champion dogs as well. It's incredible- NADAC in particular. 

Now pet people don't need to be able to maneuver their dogs at high speed through obstacle courses but good agility training gives people a nice language to communicate with their dog. Also, I have had the best experience with trainers really understanding dogs and what motivates many different kinds of dogs through agility. Admittedly I've only done obedience through one club but taken rally 2 other places as well and only one pet oriented class. I really feel like overall the competitive agility folk were the most dog savvy I've been around and the best at really figuring out what works for each dog.

You also do need sits and stays and recall for most dogs in agility (and around distractions full of people and other running, excited dogs!). Self control is also taught in good classes. Foundation agility classes to me are the BEST thing for really getting that working relationship going. It's fun, fast paced, full of cooperative games. Just good stuff. Even if I wasn't doing agility with a dog, I'd opt for foundation agility classes over just well behaved pet classes or basic obedience classes.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

A dog can be good at agility or obedience, but still be a terribly behaved pet.

Recently I saw a video of the top 3 dogs and handlers in some big agility thing on the podium. This was agility at an international level. One dog wouldn't sit on the podium, the owner struggled with the dog for a while and then had to force the dog's butt down into a sit. One of the other dogs sat, but then spotted something in the distance and just bolted from the podium.

And these were some of the best agility dogs in the world.

Agility does teach a lot of important skills, I think training a good agility dog takes more than training a good obedience dog, and I think agility teaches just as many important skills as obedience (if not more), such as listening to cues and focusing on the handler even when you are running at full speed and the arousal level is high with a lot of distractions around. Agility does also teach to walk next to the handler, that's not specific to obedience.

But doing obedience or agility doesn't necessarily make a great pet. 

A comment I hear a lot from pet owners is that they did an obedience class with their dog, but their dog still jumps up on people or steals food or chews stuff. Those are basic life skills that a dog needs, but isn't taught in "obedience".


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

lil_fuzzy said:


> A comment I hear a lot from pet owners is that they did an obedience class with their dog, but their dog still jumps up on people or steals food or chews stuff. Those are basic life skills that a dog needs, but isn't taught in "obedience".


These kind of basic manners have been discussed and talked about in both of the classes that I took, and the trainer was more than willing to discuss problem behaviors with any of us (even in the for-fun tricks class), which is something that I think is necessary in a GOOD obedience class. Regardless though, the in-class training has to be followed-up with work at home by the family too, and that goes with private training sessions as well. The trainer isn't going to be around to tell the family what to do every time the dog jumps up.

IMO, I think a lot of pet owners (myself included) simply choose to live with some less desirable but non-harmful behaviors. Even if they know "how" to fix it, being consistent about it can be difficult, especially if, for example, the children in the family think it s great that the dog gives them "hugs" so they reward him with praise and petting for jumping up on them.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Agreed, a basic obedience class should also cover general manners and life skills.

Around here a lot of the classes seem to be preparing people for formal obedience though, and don't cover basic manners. It's just sit, stay, heel, etc.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

hmm every basic obedience class should cover those things. I do in all my puppy 1 and adult 1 classes we go over potty training (puppy 1), crate training, jumping, mouthing, proper play, how to safely introduce dogs and people socialization and other similar stuff depending on the dog/dogs in class. if its not a jumper I may touch on the subject but wont waste extra class time on it. but if dogs attending have specific problems we address those not just a specific set of commands. The classes I teach are based around the CGC, and the CGCA (which is pretty much the same thing except how the test is administered). I would consider it a fail if a dog was snatching peoples walking canes and chewing on them.... lol


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> A comment I hear a lot from pet owners is that they did an obedience class with their dog, but their dog still jumps up on people or steals food or chews stuff. Those are basic life skills that a dog needs, but isn't taught in "obedience".


I think when pet owners say "obedience class" they mean a manners class, not competition obedience. At our club, the pet classes are "basic manners" and "beyond basic manners" and then you can branch into "advanced manners" or "dog sport fundamentals." It's not until you've taken those foundation classes (plus a few more, I think) that one can take the first level obedience class.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

yeah we do puppy 1 2 then akc star puppy, adult 1 adult 2, then CGC. all these are about good behaviors not competitive obedience. of course we offer private lessons where the student can learn anything I know how to teach.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

How times have changed, old school was one class taught basics and obedience.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

yeah, the way our curriculum is set up is 1 teaches basic commands and communication, 2 works on distractions and distance (those are introduced in 1 but worked up to higher levels in two) as well as the higher level commands like going form llw to heel and back out to llw. and CGC/star is to proof everything to testing standards. mostly its geared that way for the way i train. I dont train dogs I really train the owners how to be the trainers. and no 6 week course can really cover all the commands luring techniques etc. effectively that way so its spread into several class groupings. lots of people stop after level 1 since they really leave class with a "well behaved" base and are happy with that. 

Basicly I am there to show them how to train and proof their techniques as well as modify methods for each dog and handler if one method isn't suiting the dog.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

cookieface said:


> I think when pet owners say "obedience class" they mean a manners class, not competition obedience. At our club, the pet classes are "basic manners" and "beyond basic manners" and then you can branch into "advanced manners" or "dog sport fundamentals." It's not until you've taken those foundation classes (plus a few more, I think) that one can take the first level obedience class.


I meant that the "basic obedience" classes here are basic competition obedience, but they market it as a class for pet dog owners to teach their dog basic obedience and manners. They are the first level of classes that people sign up to, and usually consist of 45 minutes of heeling patterns and some sit-stays. Not very game/fun oriented at all. There are "life skills" classes around which teach pet dog skills, but people sign up to basic obedience classes thinking it will help with their dog's general behaviour, which usually isn't the case. The basic obedience class at the agility club is more life skills oriented too, and breaks it down into games, which is much better.

I always tell clients to avoid the obedience clubs if they are looking for an obedience class, find an agility club instead.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I meant that the "basic obedience" classes here are basic competition obedience, but they market it as a class for pet dog owners to teach their dog basic obedience and manners. They are the first level of classes that people sign up to, and usually consist of 45 minutes of heeling patterns and some sit-stays. Not very game/fun oriented at all. There are "life skills" classes around which teach pet dog skills, but people sign up to basic obedience classes thinking it will help with their dog's general behaviour, which usually isn't the case. The basic obedience class at the agility club is more life skills oriented too, and breaks it down into games, which is much better.
> 
> I always tell clients to avoid the obedience clubs if they are looking for an obedience class, find an agility club instead.


Well, that's unfortunate. Our pet manners classes are taught as if someone were planning to participate in higher level activities (e.g., timing, positioning, and precision are emphasized), but the content is for pets (e.g., LLW, leave it, polite greeting).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Well, that's unfortunate. Our pet manners classes are taught as if someone were planning to participate in higher level activities


I like that, the owners can train and make a choice as to how far they want to take dogs. At the very least they hopefully will end up with a dog that has some manners. The big hurdle is convincing/showing the owner what is possible with proper training of their dog.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

Ditto, I like when classes are set up to get good behaviors and to encourage higher level participation, not designed to force some one to participate in more classes just to learn basics. I've witnessed some classes that are set up really weird, covering an odd scattering of commands that really don't work together to encourage a rounded knowledge but seem to be more geared towards flipping the student into another class because their dog "isn't well behaved yet" and some are ridiculously over the student/trainer ratio, at the beginner level 15 students one trainer, leaves zero one on one time in an hour class. I cap my classes at 4 dogs per class. so even if one or two students are struggling it doesnt sacrifice the quality of the attention all students are getting.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Imagine that 4 dogs in the class, geeze I hate it when somebody adds common sense to the mix.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I like that, the owners can train and make a choice as to how far they want to take dogs. At the very least they hopefully will end up with a dog that has some manners. The big hurdle is convincing/showing the owner what is possible with proper training of their dog.


It was odd at first. Our first class was very much pet-oriented; if the dog sat when asked, we celebrated. There was no concern over whether the dog was sitting straight or had sat within a few seconds. Our next class (at the training club) expected more from handlers and dogs. If we asked for a sit, the dog needed to sit within a certain time frame, needed to sit straight, and we needed to deliver treats in a manner that didn't encourage the dog to move. Very different experience. I didn't like the trainer much because I was chastised so much for sloppy performance and he has a wicked streak. Now, he's one of my favorites (as long as his sarcasm isn't directed at me).



sharpei said:


> Ditto, I like when classes are set up to get good behaviors and to encourage higher level participation, not designed to force some one to participate in more classes just to learn basics. I've witnessed some classes that are set up really weird, covering an odd scattering of commands that really don't work together to encourage a rounded knowledge but seem to be more geared towards flipping the student into another class because their dog "isn't well behaved yet" and some are ridiculously over the student/trainer ratio, at the beginner level 15 students one trainer, leaves zero one on one time in an hour class. I cap my classes at 4 dogs per class. so even if one or two students are struggling it doesnt sacrifice the quality of the attention all students are getting.


At our club, it seems that each of the pet classes teaches very similar cues (sit, down, stand, come, touch, drop it, leave it), but the difficulty is increased as one advances. They also offer advice for things like crate training, potty training, counter surfing, etc. I think each class might introduce something new, but I can't remember. Plus each instructor has their own interests. One thing I have mixed feelings about is that the instructors teach some cues differently, so you go 6 weeks teaching stay one way only to change for the next 6 weeks. On the one hand, it allows people to find a method that works best for them and their dogs, on the other it's really confusing.

Our classes are limited to 8 dogs and in the manners classes there is always a primary and secondary instructor. There was only one instructor in our puppy class, but there were also only 4 dogs. One thing I've noticed recently in all classes is that the instructor asks each student individually to share something good from the past week and if there are any questions. They ask for questions again at the end of class.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Our classes are limited to 8 dogs and in the manners classes there is always a primary and secondary instructor. There was only one instructor in our puppy class, but there were also only 4 dogs. One thing I've noticed recently in all classes is that the instructor asks each student individually to share something good from the past week and if there are any questions. They ask for questions again at the end of class.


I like this, I will pull in a secondary instructor on a small class if one student is having a super hard time even with just 3 dogs. like one class I have right now 2 of the dog/handlers are doing spectacular and the third is having a really hard time because of the dogs background, so I do the general addressing of commands with all the students, then I pull in the assistant instructor to either work with the student thats struggling, or the other two, depending on the situation/command since I have more experience I go with whichever way is going to be most beneficial for all the students as well as give the assistant instructor more experience dealing with the harder aspects of the job. Usually I'll flip flop between the easy ones and the tricky dog. I personally like the challenge, but the assistant instructor also needs to gain experience with the tough ones. So I try and make it the best possible experience for all involved. I definitely dont want the easier students to think their training quality is being sacrificed because they are always stuck with the secondary trainer instead of me whom they signed up to have class with.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sharpei said:


> I like this, I will pull in a secondary instructor on a small class if one student is having a super hard time even with just 3 dogs. like one class I have right now 2 of the dog/handlers are doing spectacular and the third is having a really hard time because of the dogs background, so I do the general addressing of commands with all the students, then I pull in the assistant instructor to either work with the student thats struggling, or the other two, depending on the situation/command since I have more experience I go with whichever way is going to be most beneficial for all the students as well as give the assistant instructor more experience dealing with the harder aspects of the job. Usually I'll flip flop between the easy ones and the tricky dog. I personally like the challenge, but the assistant instructor also needs to gain experience with the tough ones. So I try and make it the best possible experience for all involved. I definitely dont want the easier students to think their training quality is being sacrificed because they are always stuck with the secondary trainer instead of me whom they signed up to have class with.


Our classes have been like that, but more commonly the secondary instructor is used to supervise one-at-a-time activities (like LLW or recall) while the primary instructor works with the larger group. Also, the secondary instructor is good for having a second person for the dogs to interact with and practice polite meetings with.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Plus each instructor has their own interests. One thing I have mixed feelings about is that the instructors teach some cues differently, so you go 6 weeks teaching stay one way only to change for the next 6 weeks. On the one hand, it allows people to find a method that works best for them and their dogs, on the other it's really confusing.


Yes instructors with their own interests and egos. Sounds like a possible Chinese fire drill. Hope not.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Yes instructors with their own interests and egos. Sounds like a possible Chinese fire drill. Hope not.


Not really. For example, teaching stay - one instructor has you put your dog in a sit or down, take a step away, step back, treat, give a release cue; another has you put three treats about a step a way from the dog, put your dog in a sit or down, take a step, grab a treat, step back, give treat, repeat until treats are gone, give release cue. Not hugely different, but I have a hard time keeping track of which instructor likes which method although they don't really mind what you're doing as long as it's consistent with their training philosophy and not horrible technique.

In terms of their own interest, one instructor may introduce skills needed for agility; whereas, another might do more obedience-type foundations. Or, for example, in Tyson's basic manners class, the instructor would take time out of class just for us to play and connect with our dogs. Those changes make the classes more interesting (especially when repeating them).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Oh I'm not judging, I just have spent too many years seeing the chinese fire drill program. The proof is in the puddin, if the dogs leaving the classes are better than when entering the job is done. I would never argue with success.


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