# Dogs don't get along anymore...



## cupcake-a-b-c (Apr 16, 2014)

Hello. I'm seeking advice on my two dogs, Satsuki and Hachiko. They're both females, Satsuki is a 2yr old Australian cattle dog x lab and Hachiko is a 3yr old Weimaraner. I've had them together for a little over a year. They seemed to get along and play well together. 
Couple of months ago, Satsuki attacked Hachiko. These are my first set of pups, so I may have missed the signs, but it seemed out of the blue. I woke up and let them out of their crates, started doing their run through of tricks before breakfast, and that is when Satsuki started growling at the other one. Nothing happened at that point, but after they were done eating, both went to take a nap in the same spot. I looked over to see Hachiko with her head on Satsuki and they stayed like that for about 30 mins. Next thing I knew, I heard a growl and Satsuki was attacking. It was bad. She is very big and I could not pull her off. She never once snapped at me during the incident. Seemed like her sole enemy was the other dog. 
Needless to say this whole incident has me shaken up pretty bad. We've kept the two apart since. Hachiko has healed and seems to be unfazed by the whole thing. She is not afraid at all. Satsuki seems to have symptoms of separation anxiety since. I'm afraid it's getting worse by the day. 
I would like to know if anyone else has ever had this experience and is it possible to have them get along again? What can I do to help Satsuki with her anxiety? She doesn't even want to be in the yard and will whine to be let in. 
They are both great dogs and I love them both dearly. I would like to do whatever is possible before having to find one a new forever home. 
Thank you for reading my long post and for any advice you may have.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I'd suggest reading about resource guarding. It sounds like it started with them both being around food (particularly when they might be hungry and extra-ready for breakfast, not that dogs don't like to eat all the time anyway) and then escalated when they were both on the same bed or rug. As in, maybe a bit of "MY SPACE!" dispute. 

I've had two dogs fight over a treat, it was a small item that got overlooked on my rug and when both dogs went into the room, they both went for it and one went after the other dog. After that though, as long as I kept food and chew toys put away when they were both loose, they continued to live fine together and play together and walk together (all supervised though) until the other dog who was a foster got adopted a few months later. 

Definitely put ALL food and toy items away if you reintroduce them. I suggest starting with walking outside and having another adult there too for initial reintros. Walk them briskly alongside each other but with some 6 or 7 feet in between and then gradually walk closer but not right side by side, maybe 3 feet apart. Then after a long brisk walk, they can sniff each other again. Keep leashes very loose here and let the dogs use natural body language. Alternatively, you can let them meet after the walk in a fenced yard where you drop the leashes but pick up any toys and move out of the area anything they might be possessive over. 

Normally I might suggest a trainer for a set of experienced eyes to watch their body language but I'm not sure what your options might be in Tokyo. Still, look at the information on dog body language from Turid Rugaas as a starting place.

It is possible though that they simply won't get along again. It can happen and they are getting to be adult dogs and maybe changing personalities some. But I personally would try a supervised reintro and see what level of comfort they have with each other. It may be that they are fine out on walks together and in the yard but not fine in the house for example. Or that they need their own dog beds and areas and not to let the other lay on top of one. 

I definitely wouldn't leave them alone unsupervised at any time though, even if they return to getting alone alright. If at any time along the way of walking or reintroductions you see signs that they are gearing up for a fight and there aren't any obvious issues like a dog toy or treat causing that problem, then go right back to giving them space and keeping them apart and see if you can find a trainer that will evaluate them calming and without punishment.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I agree with the advice you have gotten so far. 
When we had Caeda and Dexter together we realized leaving toys out was not a good idea, we were able to feed them at the same time, close to each other, supervised, though that took some training....just letting them go and eat next to each other wasn't good because Dexter always ate faster, and until we worked on it he would try to take the rest of Caeda's food. Having multiple dog beds helps as well. Separation and a very supervised (preferably by a trained eye) re-introduction is a great idea. Perhaps talk it over with a trainer and find out the things that might help to change around your house and the way you deal with the dogs so that after the re-introduction there is a generally new way of being (ie: toys aren't on the floor, dog beds are ready, feeding 'ritual' is done differently etc). Basically start fresh. 

I know you are probably freaked out and discouraged right now, but on the up side you caught this, and you have them separated at the moment. When you went to separate them you weren't re-directed at and nobody was seriously injured (or at least you didn't mention any injuries). It could have been worse. Good luck!!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

It sounds like Hachiko scared Satsuki big time. If H had her head on S's back then that is pretty domineering stuff and I could see that S could be getting more and more anxious about this. H probably moved a bit then S just had enough. Did H happen to push S out of the way during the little trick session? Bet she did.

Max and Sassy got along fine if food wasn't up for grabs but when Sassy started jumping on Max because she didn't see he was on that bed when she was old [don't believe it for a second but that was clearly her reasoning] he started to let her have it. For a while he just let her do it and they shared the bed. I didn't like it but 'apparently' he was fine with it. No he really wasn't. Think back, anything like that going on? Was H pushing ahead, grabbing toys, the good spot in the sun, anything like that before the first growl?

I'd want a behaviorist to observe the dogs. Bet S isn't really the problem here, it is H that is being a bully. In the meantime keep H from pushing S around and look into using NILIF for both dogs so they know you are in charge and they don't need to get pushy with one another. Be proactive and prevent the pushing, don't correct it. If possible, not easy to see this stuff going on. Remember getting bullied but there was not really anything in particular you could list about that person's behavior that caused you to feel oppressed?

Hope separating them and walking together helps.


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## cupcake-a-b-c (Apr 16, 2014)

Thank you very much for such wonderful advice! Satsuki is a very nervous dog and thinking back, the happy go lucky Hachiko was probably way too much in her face. 
I will definitely try all of the suggestions mentioned. I can see how feeding separately can be of benefit, since Hachiko is usually the first to finish and hover around. I think that was the cause of the first growl too. And I think you are right Kathyy, about Hachiko being the problem. 
Ahhh the dog beds....I'm embarrassed to say, my cat pees on all of them so we stopped buying dog/cat beds  Usually the dogs are just on the couch or floor. We did get a little hurt. Hachiko almost had her lungs punctured and I broke a finger trying to pry them apart. We're both doing great now though 
I will be doing my homework on positive dog training and reintroducing the two. I will also see about a dog trainer in the area. 
Thank you so much for all the great advice. I am very stressed out by the situation and have no one around me to guide us in the right direction. You guys are awesome!! Thank you


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I also have a similar problem with two females here (Yumi, one of my parents dogs and Josefina) one day they just decided they didn't want to get along anymore and got into a little scuffle (when I wasn't here), my parents broke it up and separated both dogs for a while so they could calm down. Everything was fine for a while and they thought things had been resolved, but unfortunately that wasn't the case, they got into a second fight, this one was serious, with Josefina bloodying up the other dog, now they are separated when no one can be out in the yard with them.

This might be what you have to do, don't wait until blood is spilt, if you cant watch them, separate them, its better then coming outside or coming home (if they are loose in the house together) to one or more dead dogs.


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## cupcake-a-b-c (Apr 16, 2014)

Thank you for the advice. I'm sorry what happened to your two girls. My incident was your second fight from the start. Hachiko was pretty bloodied up and was very close to loosing her life. I thank my lucky stars for being on the spot when it happened. I do have them separated at the moment, but I am a little concerned about the jealousy they are starting to show when one is with a human and the other is not. Continuous whining and one has even lost her appetite (she will eat if it's yummied up). I'm not sure how much time your parents pup Josefina and Yumi get to spend together, but did the two learn to be okay separated and occasionally alone?


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Cupcake...I can only give you my experience and how I think about this and dealt with it, but it is surely not something I think you should necessarily do because I don't know you and your particular temperament. To me...the dogs are pretty immaterial. This has to do with your gut and will. When I got "involved" in the dog world, I'd heard many, many stories of bitches living together just fine until "one day" they had a huge, nasty fight. Every single time these "dog" people told me they forever had to keep those two bitches separate because they could never again be trusted...that "fixed" the situation. Well...to me, that is not fixing the situation. That is managing the situation. It is up to you which way you choose to do.

Personally, I don't have the temperament to play musical crates with dogs. I don't want to live that way, and I'm sure my dogs don't want to live that way. For many, many years, I felt rather great about the fact that I had bitches living together (boys came later) and they never fought. Until...two particular bitches. I bred both, I whelped both...I raised both. They were half-sisters and lived peacefully together for 2 years. The older sister was 5...the younger, 2. And on one occasion, going outside, it seemed to me that one bumped the other while going out the door and all heck broke loose. I am by myself...and admittedly I freaked because I was unprepared...but despite my angst...I got them separated and we went BACK inside the house and once inside, they went at it again...by now..my adrenalin was flowing and I got each of them by their neck scruffs (they each weighed 70 lbs) and I threw them both down, made them face each other and luckily they at least remembered ME and I held their necks in a way the couldn't easily get up and I made them face each other for about 20 minutes....time I needed to compose myself and for them to relax. When I finally released the pressure on their necks, they both also more subdued, and I told them to "go lay down" and they both did. Immediately...they wanted to "look" or "stare" at each other...and I immediately corrected THAT. I did NOT separate them. I wanted them to KNOW right from the get-go that whatever crap they thought they had with each other paled in comparison to what I wanted. 

Both bitches, from puppyhood on were strong-willed bitches. It came out that particular day. But there was no way I was going give in to them....they were going to have to give in to me. For sure....if I wasn't present, one or the other had to be crated....and that meant the younger one...which was normal anyway. My dogs are typically crated, unless they are older when I am gone. But for sure, when I was present, they WILL LEARN to live together and yes, that meant for a few months that I kept an eagle eye, and in the beginning, I would catch them giving each other the stink eye and I corrected EACH AND EVERY look they gave to each other. 

You probably did miss some signs, as I did. For sure, you should have addressed the growl the morning of the fight you had. All of our dogs throughout our lives teach us things if we are willing to learn. They should teach us more about their language so that we can anticipate. For ME....it was never an option to keep my dogs separated. I believed I could make them live together, and I did...it didn't happen overnight...never again had an actual fight....but that is because I was on my toes...I corrected even the most minute of looks or postures...I remained CALM....but vigilant.

I don't believe in using "resource guarding" as an excuse. ANY indication of that term "resource" guarding, whether you have just one dog or in a multiple dogs household is an issue to be addressed and FIXED. It is not a terminal "label" any dog should have. If you believe that dog fight was due to "resource guarding" then you need to fix that very fixable behavior before you can expect these two dogs to live peacefully. In my situation...even after the two horrible fights, the next morning, those two bitches still ate their meal side by side with no issues....because "resource guarding" wasn't even an issue. My will is that my dogs can all live together. If you don't believe it can happen, it never will. If you believe it will, and have the mindset that it will...you can make it happen. 

You said these are your first two dogs...learn from them...they are certainly more complicated than hamsters...and I personally love to observe all of their behaviors in order to understand them better...it is a joy. It is also necessary...don't let this fight fill you with fear...whichever way you choose to go...fixing or managing...learn from it...take joy in observing canine behavior...read a lot, but don't always "fall in love" with everything you read...read a lot and with that and your observations...try to find a "gut" instinct for yourself. You won't always be right...none of us are always right...but you will always get closer! ;-)


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> Cupcake...I can only give you my experience and how I think about this and dealt with it, but it is surely not something I think you should necessarily do because I don't know you and your particular temperament. To me...the dogs are pretty immaterial. This has to do with your gut and will. When I got "involved" in the dog world, I'd heard many, many stories of bitches living together just fine until "one day" they had a huge, nasty fight. Every single time these "dog" people told me they forever had to keep those two bitches separate because they could never again be trusted...that "fixed" the situation. Well...to me, that is not fixing the situation. That is managing the situation. It is up to you which way you choose to do.
> 
> Personally, I don't have the temperament to play musical crates with dogs. I don't want to live that way, and I'm sure my dogs don't want to live that way. For many, many years, I felt rather great about the fact that I had bitches living together (boys came later) and they never fought. Until...two particular bitches. I bred both, I whelped both...I raised both. They were half-sisters and lived peacefully together for 2 years. The older sister was 5...the younger, 2. And on one occasion, going outside, it seemed to me that one bumped the other while going out the door and all heck broke loose. * I am by myself...and admittedly I freaked because I was unprepared...but despite my angst...I got them separated and we went BACK inside the house and once inside, they went at it again...by now..my adrenalin was flowing and I got each of them by their neck scruffs (they each weighed 70 lbs) and I threw them both down, made them face each other and luckily they at least remembered ME and I held their necks in a way the couldn't easily get up and I made them face each other for about 20 minutes....time I needed to compose myself and for them to relax. When I finally released the pressure on their necks, they both also more subdued, and I told them to "go lay down" and they both did. Immediately...they wanted to "look" or "stare" at each other...and I immediately corrected THAT. I did NOT separate them. I wanted them to KNOW right from the get-go that whatever crap they thought they had with each other paled in comparison to what I wanted. *
> 
> ...


Wow... that's an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible thing to suggest to someone on the internet, when you know neither them nor their dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Here's a blog post from Dr Sophia Yin on training a dog to be comfortable with another dog around food. It does talk about using her product the Treat and Train but also includes info on using another person to help with the training instead of the device
Possession Aggression

Here's a little article from Karen Pryor's clicker training site on dog-dog guarding
Preventing guarding in a multi dog house hold

Here's a general discussion on it from Patricia McConnell
RG treatment and prevention

Here's a review and training guideline on dog-dog guarding and interaction from Pat Miller
Improve the behavior – and emotional response – of dogs who guard resources from other dogs.




ireth0 said:


> Wow... that's an incredibly dangerous and irresponsible thing to suggest to someone on the internet, when you know neither them nor their dogs.


I agree. Pinning two dogs down that are hyped up and ready to go for each other and holding them their while they face their adversary in a forced submissive position which increases their stress and increases the antagonistic feelings of the moment? That is asking for a nasty redirection onto the human or a nasty fight when those dogs get up.

And yeah, I know that Justdogs is going to reply with something similar to this line from near the end of the above post--- "My will is that my dogs can all live together. If you don't believe it can happen, it never will. If you believe it will, and have the mindset that it will...you can make it happen " but I'd argue that it is far better to actually FIX the problem as far as possible (which is likely able to be fixed) using well proven methods from respected trainers and behaviorists in a manner that is much much less likely to present a danger to either the human or the dogs. Not knowing the dogs and not knowing the person, telling someone it is a good idea to PIN THE DOGS DOWN FACING EACH OTHER is just plain bad advice. Might it work for some dogs and some people? Potentially although it could also just suppress behavior until it explodes later. Might it backfire in a very painful way? Yes. 

Of course I want my dogs to listen to me and respect me. But I also want them to respect each other. So having a place, be it a rug, a room, or just a corner of the couch, that each can go to and lie down on without the other encroaching on them while they are napping or relaxing is good.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

cupcake-a-b-c said:


> Thank you for the advice. I'm sorry what happened to your two girls. My incident was your second fight from the start. Hachiko was pretty bloodied up and was very close to loosing her life. I thank my lucky stars for being on the spot when it happened. I do have them separated at the moment, but I am a little concerned about the jealousy they are starting to show when one is with a human and the other is not. Continuous whining and one has even lost her appetite (she will eat if it's yummied up). I'm not sure how much time your parents pup Josefina and Yumi get to spend together, but did the two learn to be okay separated and occasionally alone?


Well they can be out in the yard as long as someone is supervising outside or from one of the houses many panoramic picture windows (we can see the while yard from inside the house and can see the dogs at all times) and when they can't be watched in some way Yumi goes I the front yard by herself, she is fine by herself. At night they all come in together and sleep on their own beds so no one is "deprived" of human attention. I have 2 other dogs here (my folks dogs) besides the two females and both girls get along with the others ... Just not each other. 

There nasnt been another fight since we have been doing it this way, it's possible your dogs are just sensing a change in routine and it will take some time for them to adjust. 

BTW, Josefina is mine


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<And yeah, I know that Justdogs is going to reply with something similar to this line from near the end of the above post--- "My will is that my dogs can all live together. If you don't believe it can happen, it never will.>>

Well, since Shell seems to think she knows what I'll say...I can only say, based on the titles of her proffered websites...and because of her curious obsession with "resource guarding" in dogs that she is rather predictable as well. Not everything bad that happens between dogs is an issue of some sort of "guarding" behavior...sometimes it is simply incorrect behavior. 

Shell says: <<I agree. Pinning two dogs down that are hyped up and ready to go for each other and holding them their while they face their adversary in a forced submissive position which increases their stress and increases the antagonistic feelings of the moment? That is asking for a nasty redirection onto the human or a nasty fight when those dogs get up.>>

Seriously..."pinning" two dogs down?" "a FORCED" submissive position?" Did you NOT get the fact that I was alone? That I weigh less than the two dogs combined? If they wanted to get up, they could have EASILY gotten up and continued battling. Since you obviously have never done this because you forgive the whole "resource guarding" thing, how would you EVEN KNOW that what I did increased the stress level? The mere fact my dogs actually DE-STRESSED from simply one hand on each of their necks proves you wrong with what I did with my dogs. Maybe your breed is able to trick you...maybe they are smarter than you. Maybe you are afraid of them. Maybe you sympathize with people who are afraid of normal verbal crap from large dogs....who knows. I have to address "Ireth0" saying I was being irresponsible, because obviously Ireth0 didn't see that threw in the caveat that while this is what I did, I made it clear I didn't know the poster or his/her dogs. So please...stop with the theatrics. 

You say: "Of course I want my dogs to listen to me and respect me. But I also want them to respect each other. So having a place, be it a rug, a room, or just a corner of the couch, that each can go to and lie down on without the other encroaching on them while they are napping or relaxing is good. >> To me, this just proves that you are a slave to that term "resource" guarding. Dogs respecting each other, TO ME, doesn't mean dogs should feel they have a "place" to go without another dog encroaching...because, um, that is the recipe for your term "resource guarding." My dogs (four of them) don't have a particular place that is "theirs" I have dog beds all over the place. Some more favorable than others. In MY house...if one of my dogs wants a bed the other has...they start doing really peculiar things...they'll play with a toy in order to engage the dog on the spot they want, and if the dog takes the bait...they forget the game and claim the bed...the "fooled" dog simply stands there as if to say "darn it...I fell for it." If THAT tactic doesn't work...they will sometimes run to the window and be animated as if they see something really cool outside...again...simply as a ruse to get a dog to leave a space. How fun is THAT!!!! Delightful to watch. 

Take nail trimming. For sure, it is super easy with two people with the one person spooning peanut butter or whatever to create distraction. But really....when one has four large dogs and only one person is available to trim the nails of four large dogs...how will you deal with it when one of the dogs growls or makes a motion resembling a bite? I'm thinking Shell will categorize it as "resource guarding" thus spend months figuring it out, and in the meantime forgiving that behavior...or someone else being afraid of that noise and forever being afraid of the dogs..so maybe taking the dog to the vet to have this task done. Well...my large breed hates having their nails done....and they are big, thick, black nails...I don't enjoy the task either, so sometimes I haven't done it as often as I should... until one day, after I put it off for too long...one of my dogs wrenched their nail between the slats in my deck...split the nail to the core....required surgery to clean it up. Since them...screw it....they growl, they dart their head toward my hand...they don't bite...they simply tell me they hate it, and I ignore it. We both know it is going to be done....

I've always owned large dogs. I've never been afraid of my large dogs...NOT ONCE. Absolutely, I know they can do great damage...but they don't know I know this. They only know I am the giver of resources...that I don't tolerate certain shennanigans. It is amazing when they are all in a circle...usually when I am on the phone, and they all start to sing and "face-fight" each other making truly odd howls and vocalizations...most people are delighted when they hear this beautiful noise....they aren't "stressed" because true "play" dominates their existence...not the acquisition of "resources." So when "Shell" makes light of and mocks the fact that because I believe what I want, and make it happen, or words to that effect...she can mock all she wants. I don't need to carve out "spaces" for my dogs...they enjoy all spaces. I've had two fights in 25 years with my current breed...none with my previous, or rescue dogs...never occurred to me to separate dogs...simply wasn't an option...simply not how I wanted to live with my dogs. The fact I was able to make two large dogs face each other by myself? It certainly wasn't FORCE...and it obviously didn't CREATE stress. So....berate me, mock me, whatever you want, and continue to give credence to pop-psych terms that make you comfortable that you have failed being a strong owner, or worse yet...afraid of your own dog.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I will leave it at this:

I think the advice JustDogs gives is dangerous and many very experienced and scientific based trainers and behaviorists disagree with him/her. What may work for him/her is not what may work for someone else by far and when giving advice or suggestions on the internet, it is better to error on the side of caution rather than risk. 

If you follow the only other thread I have seen JustDogs posting in, you will see that there are also issues there.

I'm only pointing out resource guarding as an issue in this instance because I see it potentially being an issue in this instance. In no way do I make it an issue overall in training and there are many training problems completely unrelated to RG, but yes, it is real and it can be dealt with and there are legit sources to help. 

I hope you can work things out.


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

Shell said:


> Here's a blog post from Dr Sophia Yin on training a dog to be comfortable with another dog around food. It does talk about using her product the Treat and Train but also includes info on using another person to help with the training instead of the device
> Possession Aggression
> 
> Here's a little article from Karen Pryor's clicker training site on dog-dog guarding
> ...


Thanks for those links. Both my dogs resource guard.

My dogs have fought in the past, but only under specific circumstances. Fortunately, no blood was ever drawn, which I take to mean that they didn't want to harm the other, just make a point.

Lucky resource guards treats and toys. I watch them carefully when either of them have a treat or a toy.

Coco resource guards space and food. She likes her space and doesn't like Lucky moving in on her space (space on a couch, on a bed, or next to me). She also gets angry when Lucky circles her while she's trying to eat, since Lucky eats quickly and Coco eats very, very, very slowly.

What I've done so far is remove all objects that cause them to fight (treats and toys) when I'm not there to monitor them. If Coco decides not to eat (she can be a picky eater), I put her food up where they cannot reach it. I feed Lucky in his crate and Coco outside of a crate. Lucky is much better in a crate than Coco, although she can be crated if need be. As for space issues, Coco generally just sends a warning bark to Lucky to keep out of her space, but space rarely causes an all-out fight. Coco will move if annoyed enough. Lucky "plays" Coco in that he knows she'll move if he keeps annoying her. I do feel bad for Coco in these instances.

When fights do occur, Lucky goes into his crate. I let them bark it out and don't interfere. Touching and interfering (other than placing Lucky in the crate) actually makes it worse, I've found. Yelling makes it worse. Usually they'll bark for a minute or so, decide it's not worth it, and I can let Lucky out again. Then they're fine so long as the "trigger" is no longer around. I know crates aren't supposed to be used in this way, but Lucky hasn't been averse to going in his crate because I do this. He runs to his crate at meal time.

I do, however, want to try and train them to be less possessive to prevent fights altogether.

For the record, they do play with each other all the time. They've never fought outside--the more space there is for them to do their own thing, play if they want, but move away from each other if they want, the better. They play inside, too. My couches can attest to that. I just need to watch them around any of the above-mentioned triggers.


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

The difference between Karen Pryor and "shell" is that Karen Pryor (and I'm a huge proponent of Karen Pryor....but obviously some people don't get it) realizes that resource guarding is something to be FIXED...and not to be used as an excuse for bad behavior. Yes, fixing resource guarding is a process...and I've been through that process, and now I don't have that issue...thus...well...I don't fear dog fights. People want a quick fix...or at the very least they want to bond with people with problems that can be fixed, but can't be bothered to actually do it. Heck...earlier today I just sent my rather large dogs into the back yard with a marrow bone for each of them...They all love that...they all eventually pick a place to quietly do their thing...I"m in the house doing other stuff...real meat, real bones...I don't fear pandemonium among my dogs because of "resource guarding." Sigh. 

I think it is sad people resort to saying my views are "dangerous" when I'm simply trying to tell people, in 30 years, my dogs actually know they aren't allowed to fight over "resources" and they regularly are among each other with high-value items (another weird "key word" that others want people to fear) without any sort of mayhem involved. I'm thinking I'm on the wrong sort of forum....because I'm thinking this forum is not about the truth, but about fear and resignation.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Nobody here thinks that resource guarding shouldn't be addressed through training and behavioral modification. Just that it's a normal, common behavior and that management and not courting disaster in the first place are important.

And honestly, I think there is more luck in your 30 years of experience than you realize when it comes to resource guarding. Most dogs don't resource guard or do in specific circumstances. But having had two dogs come to me as adolescents with significant resource guarding issues, I can tell you that success strongly depends on management and setting dogs up to succeed even while you are working on "fixing" it. And for dogs with a strong genetic predisposition for the behavior, I would hesitate to ever consider a dog "fixed". 

I'll never understand why it's so important for some people to feed dogs side by side. I see literally zero benefit from it and a lot of potential detriment, including silent detriment to a dog who is stressed but not showing overt signs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Justdogs said:


> The difference between Karen Pryor and "shell" is that Karen Pryor (and I'm a huge proponent of Karen Pryor....but obviously some people don't get it) realizes that resource guarding is something to be FIXED...and not to be used as an excuse for bad behavior. Yes, fixing resource guarding is a process...and I've been through that process, and now I don't have that issue...thus...well...I don't fear dog fights. People want a quick fix...or at the very least they want to bond with people with problems that can be fixed, but can't be bothered to actually do it. Heck...earlier today I just sent my rather large dogs into the back yard with a marrow bone for each of them...They all love that...they all eventually pick a place to quietly do their thing...I"m in the house doing other stuff...real meat, real bones...I don't fear pandemonium among my dogs because of "resource guarding." Sigh.
> 
> I think it is sad people resort to saying my views are "dangerous" when I'm simply trying to tell people, in 30 years, my dogs actually know they aren't allowed to fight over "resources" and they regularly are among each other with high-value items (another weird "key word" that others want people to fear) without any sort of mayhem involved. I'm thinking I'm on the wrong sort of forum....because I'm thinking this forum is not about the truth, but about fear and resignation.


If I don't understand that resource guarding is something to be worked on, then why am I recommending TRAINING articles and information? Training articles that talk about how to work on resource guarding in a SAFE manner so that while progress is being made, no one is being hurt. Or, if you had read what I wrote originally, you might have noticed that I specifically said the following: 


> I'd argue that it is far better to actually FIX the problem* as far as possible* (which is likely able to be fixed) using well proven methods from respected trainers and behaviorists in a manner that is much much less likely to present a danger to either the human or the dogs.


So basically, your first sentence is bunk. If your opinion of the people on this forum is so poor, it may be because you're not reading clearly what we are actually saying. Every dog is different, every household is different and there WILL be some dogs that will continue to be a potential risk around certain items but no one here is saying not to work on RG or using it as an excuse for anything. Progress can generally be made but safety is the primary initial concern.


You do whatever you want to do with your dogs, but as was clearly discussed in the other thread by people who also have many years of experience with multiple dog households, working dogs etc, what you advise and your training style would be putting other people potentially at risk if they tried to copy you.


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

JustDogs -- I don't see where Shell is saying to give up or be resigned to your dogs resource guarding. You've said that in your last two posts, but I just don't see it. Shell was simply disagreeing with your stated method of alleviating the problem of resource guarding. That's great that your method worked out for you. Here's what you said about what you did with your dogs:

"I got them separated and we went BACK inside the house and once inside, they went at it again...by now..my adrenalin was flowing and I got each of them by their neck scruffs (they each weighed 70 lbs) and I threw them both down, made them face each other and luckily they at least remembered ME and I held their necks in a way the couldn't easily get up and I made them face each other for about 20 minutes"

I don't know your particular situation, but I know that if I had done that with my dogs, the result would not have been good. What would be a one-minute fight (total) would turn into a far more aggressive situation because I've inserted myself and caused each one of them discomfort and confusion. In my case, I don't think my dogs would have turned on me (although you never know), but they would have definitely blamed their current discomfort on the other dog because both were already in an aggressive posture towards the other dog. Whatever trust they had with each other would be lost.

Now I already admitted I hadn't yet done the work to reduce the resource guarding in my home. Right now, I manage it by segregation and elimination (segregate the dogs when they fight; eliminate the trigger when they're not being supervised). However, if they do get into a fight over a toy or food (or even me), and I segregate them, they're good to go less than a minute later after the futility of the situation sets in. They're playing with each other again as if nothing ever happened, likely because the aggression was so brief. I want to eventually stop the resource guarding altogether so that there never comes a time when permanent trust between my dogs is lost. I will be working on that, starting with the resources Shell provided.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

to the OP, I went through this with an elderly happy go lucky female, and a very strong willed young female puppy- who grew up and started dominating the other one and never stopped. I still feel bad about the situation. I dont have the willingness to do crate and rotate, either if the elderly female hadnt been so old, I would have rehomed one of them(and our living situation changed so they were only in the same household half time), the younger one. It wasnt fair to her (the one getting attacked)any other way, jmo...
I feel for you, same sex aggression can be relentless ....


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## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

"I got them separated and we went BACK inside the house and once inside, they went at it again...by now..my adrenalin was flowing and I got each of them by their neck scruffs (they each weighed 70 lbs) and I threw them both down, made them face each other and luckily they at least remembered ME and I held their necks in a way the couldn't easily get up and I made them face each other for about 20 minutes"

Wow...so weird. This had NOTHING to do with feeding my dogs. This was an out of the blue transgression between two sisters that wanted to make some sort of "point" with each other. That "event" happened 3 hours after the ate their evening meal. These two sisters ALWAYS ate with each other, and even after this "issue" continued to eat with each other. The fact they ate meals together wasn't an issue...the whole "alpha" status between two dogs became the issue....the event I described above was how I dealt with THAT ISSUE. Had nothing to do with resource guarding (except I guess if some will say simply "being in charge" is a resource guarding issue). 

I guess maybe it is difficult for people to either understand or believe...FIGHTING...regardless of WHY is simply NOT ALLOWED. Iisahi...you said, "What would be a one-minute fight (total) would turn into a far more aggressive situation because I've inserted myself and caused each one of them discomfort and confusion. In my case, I don't think my dogs would have turned on me (although you never know), but they would have definitely blamed their current discomfort on the other dog because both were already in an aggressive posture towards the other dog. Whatever trust they had with each other would be lost."

So...for you and others...how do you know what would have "one minute fight"? 'Writing "one minute" sounds very brief...but actually living "one minute" is actually a long time and a lot of damage can be done in one minute. My dogs...the few times they got hold of vermin, can kill that vermin in SECONDS....but that little fact aside...NO....my dogs are not allowed an entire minute worth of fight. A minute is A LOT OF TIME for a dog fight. 

You go on to say that if you had inserted yourself that it would cause MORE aggression, and curiously, you seem to think it would cause your dogs "discomfort and confusion." Those three things...."more aggression...discomfort, and confusion" are things YOU are afraid of...not what would have actually happened it you actually believed in yourself and what YOU wanted. You say that you don't think your dogs would ever turn "on you" but then you seem to need to quantify that by saying "but you never know." which tells me two things....you don't trust yourself, and you don't trust your dogs. 

THEN you make what I think is the oddest statement of all..., "but they would have definitely blamed their current discomfort on the other dog because both were already in an aggressive posture towards the other dog. Whatever trust they had with each other would be lost." For sure...perhaps that is what two junior high school human girls would interpret the situation...but we aren't talking about junior high school girls...we are talking about dogs. I'll say again...WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DOGS. Resource guarding...that seems to be a blathering mantra on this forum...why are people afraid of TELLING their dogs they have no power regarding resources??? I hate to tell you, because you seem ensconced into believing dogs can feel "blame" and have some weird human issue of "trust" but the fact they started a fight has NOTHING to do with blame or trust. It is YOUR job to set them straight that such behaviors are simply not acceptable. THAT is what dogs understand...what is, and what isn't acceptable. 

But...you have already said...you are afraid of being bitten...that fact alone makes people make up the excuses I see so liberally on this forum. I don't fear being bitten. I was bitten as a child by a dog...because I was playing with a cocker spaniel while visiting a family friend. The dog and I were playing fetch...everything was fine...until the ball went beneath a table and tried to retrieve the ball...for WHATEVER REASON....I apparently "invaded" an area the dog thought unacceptable, and that dog mauled my hand. Did it hurt....yep...it hurt...and who was to blame why I got bitten? Me. I had no malice in my heart...I simply was enjoying the game with this dog. It is sad that everybody forgave the dog because it was "resource guarding" even back then 40 years ago...that wasn't even a term. Well...I survived that bite...and years later when I got involved with dogs...I don't FEAR being bitten...because people give that power to dogs. And certainly the DOGS know people feel that fear. 

So yes....I basically threw down two 70 lbs bitches, who seconds earlier were at each others throats, by myself, adrenaline is a great thing, and forced them to face each other. COULD they have bitten me? Yes they could have...but they could have known they could bite me when I taught them they weren't allowed to bite me when I did their nails, or when I gave them a bath or ANY OTHER THING they objected to. Basically, my dogs simply KNOW I am not afraid of them...which apparently Iisahi, you ARE afraid of your own dogs...which does drive your opinions. Again...this is sad. 

You say you manage it by segregation. That is TOTALLY fine if that is how you want to live your life with your dogs...but please don't challenge or chastise me by saying what I have accomplished is somehow wrong or dangerous...because YOU haven't been there. You haven't done the work...BY YOUR OWN WORDS. I HAVE done the work, and I am NOT afraid of my dogs, and I DON'T attribute junior high school girl human feelings to my dogs. I give my dogs the respect of understanding them as canines...not humans.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Shell said:


> what you advise and your training style would be putting other people potentially at risk if they tried to copy you.


This this this.

Not to mention putting the dogs at risk. You know what happens in A LOT of households if the dog redirects/bites someone? The dog is put down. I'm not afraid of being bitten for my own sake, I just don't feel the need to provoke a dog or set them up for failure when THEY are the one going to be paying the price for MY mistake.


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

Justdogs -- You're kind of... excitable. First off, I think you're melding me with another poster. I never said I was afraid of being bitten. My dogs have never bitten me or any other human being. I had a dog growing up that did bite (a small dog), and I wasn't afraid of her either. (She had issues)

Second, you're taking what I'm saying way beyond what I actually said and you're inserting your own assumptions. And you obviously didn't read my previous post where I explain exactly how I deal with my dogs. So... there's that. When I said I don't insert myself into my dogs' fight, I meant insert myself the way that you did. I actually do separate them. I don't just let them fight. I put one of them in a crate (the one that likes the crate). And when I segregate them, I segregate them at feeding time, not all the time. They play with each other, for pete's sake. If you're going to write a thesis about all the things I said that you think are dumb, at least read all the things I said.

Third, I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding this, but are you saying that you don't think dogs can develop trust with other dogs, and thereafter lose that trust? Because I'm pretty sure they can. Also, I am very certain that my dogs "blame" the other for certain things happening because there are clear patterns. I accidentally step on one dog's foot and that dog then lashes out at the other dog. Because the other dog just happened to be there. I realize they are dogs, but they do have motivations and they're not always logical because, as I do realize, they are dogs. I'm not saying that they have long conversations with themselves in their head about how they blame the other dog for all the woes in their lives; I'm saying in certain moments, their aggression gets pointed towards their companion and in that moment, anything further that happens to them that they don't like is deemed to be because of their companion. You can believe that your dogs have the insight and intelligence to know exactly where they should direct their ire, but my dogs don't always have that insight.

Finally, I never chastised you, I disagreed with you. But I do have the right to challenge you if I think that advice you give will not work for some dogs. This is a forum. People will have different opinions than you.

I may not have started to alleviate the *source* of my dogs' resource guarding, but I have put in the work to manage the situation, which I clearly explained in my first post (the one in which apparently you did not read). I also know my dogs (and know many other dogs over the course of my life) and know what would definitely not work with them. So I feel I have enough experience to give an opinion on what I feel definitely would not work with the dogs that I've known. Which is what I did.


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## Julie260 (Jun 30, 2011)

Hello Cupcake! 
I had a very similar situation with my two dogs. They are male and female, and they got in a fight over a bone (that they were NOT supposed to have. The male had buried it in the yard and brought it out, while I was watching, mind you. Everything happened in a flash). It was bloody, frightening, and a nearly fatal fight. I still have nightmares about it although the two of them seemed to have gotten over it the minute it was finished. They now play together, and sleep in the same bed, meaning our bed  Here are a few tips I can give you that helped me out when dealing with this situation:

1. You know your dogs. Observe them. My Hank (the attacker) is sensitive and hyper-vigilant. My female (the victim but not really) is a bully. However, she is subtle about it. They play rough. But Emma never gave in. She used to steal his toys and watch him eat. I was remiss and did not see the signs. And I think what happened is that Hank finally had enough. 
2. Manage them. Supervision is key. Mine eat separately and never get high value bones or things like that. They have toys and I do not allow them to steal from each other. 
3. Seek the help of a behaviorist. It's important that they are not just a trainer, but a person who has studied the psychology of dog behavior. When I did this, we decided that it was not Hank (my male) who needed modified behavior, but Emma with her ever so under-the-radar bullying. I no longer allow her to even look at him while he eats. I stop all rough play. And I've taken out the resources that are most guarded (high value bones and bully sticks).

I hope this helps. I tried to be short and succinct. I am not a trainer or behaviorist, but I feel for you and understand your fear and anxiety. It can get better, and your dogs and you can (most likely) live together. Feel free to message me!


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