# sit means sit



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

What is sit means sit training? I keep hearing people talk about it. Is it just e collar training?


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

In essence, yes.


----------



## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

I saw an SUV the other day with this plastered all over it, and I was also wondering what the heck it was.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

From their own website:


> Shock collar, as it’s referred to as in this video, just ain’t what they used to be, and neither is shock collar training since Sit Means Sit has turned the industry upside down with their tremendous documented success using their system. In this video, Fred Hassen and Alfredo Rivera show how to completely turn dog behavior around with today’s technology and the “Sit Means Sit” Collar, along with the best trainers in the world at using them. You will see a drastic turn around in a half hour session with the “Sit Means Sit” collar, and the “Sit Means Sit” dog training system. The Sit Means Sit dog training system has modernized and revolutionized the remote dog training world, and is a main reason why Sit Means Sit successful dog training businesses are popping up everywhere! - See more at: http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-trai...nt-what-they-used-to-be/#sthash.adAEY0FC.dpuf
> Sit Means Sit has turned the industry upside down with their tremendous documented success using their system. In this video, Fred Hassen and Alfredo Rivera show how to completely turn dog behavior around with today’s technology and the “Sit Means Sit” Collar, along with the best trainers in the world at using them. You will see a drastic turn around in a half hour session with the “Sit Means Sit” collar, and the “Sit Means Sit” dog training system. The Sit Means Sit dog training system has modernized and revolutionized the remote dog training world, and is a main reason why Sit Means Sit successful dog training businesses are popping up everywhere!
> 
> There are many people that refer to remote collars as shock collars, and in a lot of instances, it may not necessarily be a negative term that they are referring to. In a lot of cases, people may use the term shock collar in a derogatory fashion, but these people are usually uneducated, and once they get educated, they may still use the term ‘shock collar’, but not in a negative way any longer. A remote dog training collar, electronic collar, or ‘*Shock collar’ as some call it, is really just a muscle stimulator, and they have been around for years giving health benefits and alleviating pain, not causing it.* Many people refer to a shock collar as a figure of speech, much as someone may refer to a bathroom as a ‘comode’ or other terms. Shock collars, like many other forms of technology has evolved much over the years.


I cannot even with the bolded.
Sit Means Sit has turned the industry upside down with their tremendous documented success using their system. In this video, Fred Hassen and Alfredo Rivera show how to completely turn dog behavior around with today’s technology and the “Sit Means Sit” Collar, along with the best trainers in the world at using them. You will see a drastic turn around in a half hour session with the “Sit Means Sit” collar, and the “Sit Means Sit” dog training system. The Sit Means Sit dog training system has modernized and revolutionized the remote dog training world, and is a main reason why Sit Means Sit successful dog training businesses are popping up everywhere! - See more at: http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-trai...nt-what-they-used-to-be/#sthash.adAEY0FC.dpuf
Sit Means Sit has turned the industry upside down with their tremendous documented success using their system. In this video, Fred Hassen and Alfredo Rivera show how to completely turn dog behavior around with today’s technology and the “Sit Means Sit” Collar, along with the best trainers in the world at using them. You will see a drastic turn around in a half hour session with the “Sit Means Sit” collar, and the “Sit Means Sit” dog training system. The Sit Means Sit dog training system has modernized and revolutionized the remote dog training world, and is a main reason why Sit Means Sit successful dog training businesses are popping up everywhere! - See more at: http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-trai...nt-what-they-used-to-be/#sthash.adAEY0FC.dpuf
Shock collar, as it’s referred to as in this video, just ain’t what they used to be, and neither is shock collar training since Sit Means Sit has turned the industry upside down with their tremendous documented success using their system. In this video, Fred Hassen and Alfredo Rivera show how to completely turn dog behavior around with today’s technology and the “Sit Means Sit” Collar, along with the best trainers in the world at using them. You will see a drastic turn around in a half hour session with the “Sit Means Sit” collar, and the “Sit Means Sit” dog training system. The Sit Means Sit dog training system has modernized and revolutionized the remote dog training world, and is a main reason why Sit Means Sit successful dog training businesses are popping up everywhere! - See more at: http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-trai...nt-what-they-used-to-be/#sthash.adAEY0FC.dpuf
Shock collar, as it’s referred to as in this video, just ain’t what they used to be, and neither is shock collar training since Sit Means Sit has turned the industry upside down with their tremendous documented success using their system. In this video, Fred Hassen and Alfredo Rivera show how to completely turn dog behavior around with today’s technology and the “Sit Means Sit” Collar, along with the best trainers in the world at using them. You will see a drastic turn around in a half hour session with the “Sit Means Sit” collar, and the “Sit Means Sit” dog training system. The Sit Means Sit dog training system has modernized and revolutionized the remote dog training world, and is a main reason why Sit Means Sit successful dog training businesses are popping up everywhere! - See more at: http://www.sitmeanssit.com/dog-trai...nt-what-they-used-to-be/#sthash.adAEY0FC.dpuf


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

It's a franchise training business - kinda like the "McDonalds" of the dog world, SMS has a clown for a spokesperson too.

There are threads here about it if you search.


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

It's hard to search "sit means sit"...a lot comes up! Too generic.


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Yes, in essence it is a franchise dog training school, and it does use e collars. Not exclusively, but they are very heavily used. 

I've watched some of their videos, and read some of their stuff. They seem to use the ecollar in a somewhat reasonable way (not just frying the dog, instead low level stim...something which I find far more appropriate if they are to be used). There are two things that kinda bug me about them (aside from being a school that seems to push e collar use, I hate the one size fits all approach, no matter what it is), I've seen videos where the collars are on puppies...as in less than 6 months, I just don't find that appropriate personally....and secondly, they seem to almost exclusively use SportDog collars. That was the first kind of e collar I ordered. Of course first thing, I strapped it on myself (I tried the leg first) OUCH!!!! Even the low level hurt like heck, and there were only 5 levels above that. I packaged it up and sent it back. Perhaps it was just the model I had ordered, but I prefer one where the lower levels are barely even perceivable and there is a lot more levels.

Not a fan, but I've heard good and bad about them....the bad mostly from those who are just plain old anti-ecollar.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Greater Swiss said:


> They seem to use the ecollar in a somewhat reasonable way


 I guess that really depends on how you define somewhat reasonable. In one video, the proprietor advocates the use of an ecollar to stim the dog when they've also done something _right_, as a way of "showing them both sides of the coin" whatever that means . I think he's just clutching at straws, looking for a new, novel application of the collar that he can call his own, in an effort to somehow set himself apart and gain a unique 'edge' over other ecollar advocates. I believe this was partly the topic in one of the other threads.

OP, perhaps if you do a forum search for Fred Hassen you may find some narrower results, I don't know.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> I guess that really depends on how you define somewhat reasonable. In one video, the proprietor advocates the use of an ecollar to stim the dog when they've also done something _right_, as a way of "showing them both sides of the coin" whatever that means . I think he's just clutching at straws, looking for a new, novel application of the collar that he can call his own, in an effort to somehow set himself apart and gain a unique 'edge' over other ecollar advocates. I believe this was partly the topic in one of the other threads.
> 
> OP, perhaps if you do a forum search for Fred Hassen you may find some narrower results, I don't know.


I do use an e-collar on vibrate as a clicker for Bug and it works fine. I don't think I can imagine a situation where you can 'load' a both positive and negative association to something, though. Like, really? What are you trying to communicate with the dog, here?


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

That is just so much garbage .... I never would have guessed.

I'm not sure if the 'e-collar' answer is what you were looking for Or if you were looking for an older reference:

Dr. Ian Dunbar used the term "Sit means Sit" to emphasize training discipline and persistence using a comparatively positive approach.

The method: http://www.boulderdog.net/2011/03/30/rover-sit-sit-sit-sitsitsit-the-giveaway/

http://dogtime.com/cesar-millan-and-ian-dunbar.html See the Sidebar "Good Dog!"


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I actually had a consult with them (free) and tried the collar on my hand. It has ten levels,I couldn't even feel it till level 3. It only started to get uncomfortable at level 6. It actually felt a lot like the thing the physical therapist uses on my shoulders.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to train with them. The guy was a trainer before he became a part of the franchise. They start with the lowest stim your dog feels and use it as a focusing tool. Like I said,I didn't even feel the stim AT ALL till level 3, Hunter didn't notice it until level 5.


----------



## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Shows you how out of the loop I am....I was going to reply with 'Sit means Sit' to me is a handler doesn't give 50 sit commands before the dog finally decides to sit when the handler bribes the dog to sit with a cookie.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

gsdhunter said:


> They start with the lowest stim your dog feels and use it as a focusing tool.


 So ... when the dog doesn't pay attention, they/you proceed to stim the dog to FORCE him to pay attention ??? Heck of a way to train dontcha think - for the dog, that is. 

If the e collar has only 10 levels, and upon first trial your dog "didn't even notice it until level 5", then I suspect you'll be increasing that to level 6, 7, 8, etc if/when your dog develops a 'punishment callous' over the course of time and with regular usage.

IMO there are better, more creative ways to engage your dog and maintain focus. It's really not THAT difficult. But, whatever. Your dog. You train as you see fit.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

MrsBoats said:


> Shows you how out of the loop I am....I was going to reply with 'Sit means Sit' to me is a handler doesn't give 50 sit commands before the dog finally decides to sit when the handler bribes the dog to sit with a cookie.


lol for real though, my neighbor had a husky and she kept him locked up 16 hours a day so when he was loose he was crazy, she asked me to train and exercise him but then never let me (???) and one day i watched her outside with this dog off leash... he was jumping and possibly nipping her and the kids and she was just standing there going 'sit sit sit sit sit sit sit sit sit' and he was completely ignoring her :doh: she finally just rehomed him... thankfully for his sake.


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> So ... when the dog doesn't pay attention, they/you proceed to stim the dog to FORCE him to pay attention ??? Heck of a way to train dontcha think - for the dog, that is.
> 
> If the e collar has only 10 levels, and upon first trial your dog "didn't even notice it until level 5", then I suspect you'll be increasing that to level 6, 7, 8, etc if/when your dog develops a 'punishment callous' over the course of time and with regular usage.
> 
> IMO there are better, more creative ways to engage your dog and maintain focus. It's really not THAT difficult. But, whatever. Your dog. You train as you see fit.


Actually you associate the stim with positive things, like treats and toys/play.


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

gsdhunter said:


> I actually had a consult with them (free) and tried the collar on my hand. It has ten levels,I couldn't even feel it till level 3. It only started to get uncomfortable at level 6. It actually felt a lot like the thing the physical therapist uses on my shoulders.


 They actually do work on a very similar mechanism as a tens machine (I spent tons of time in physio too  ) 
I'm surprised that you couldn't feel it until level 3....Sit Means Sit uses Sprotdog collars, and the one I tried was a nightmare, although there are tons of different models. I personally prefer more levels, I find fewer levels means you can be either too high (OUCH) or too low (nagging), but the build quality is good from what I've heard, they are consistent (level 1 is level one, and doesn't fluctuate and feel different at different times). I've read about their methods, not a complete fan of the way they use them, but there are worse out there 



petpeeve said:


> So ... when the dog doesn't pay attention, they/you proceed to stim the dog to FORCE him to pay attention ??? Heck of a way to train dontcha think - for the dog, that is.
> 
> If the e collar has only 10 levels, and upon first trial your dog "didn't even notice it until level 5", then I suspect you'll be increasing that to level 6, 7, 8, etc if/when your dog develops a 'punishment callous' over the course of time and with regular usage.
> 
> IMO there are better, more creative ways to engage your dog and maintain focus. It's really not THAT difficult. But, whatever. Your dog. You train as you see fit.


*bigsigh* I understand you are against them, but it isn't fair to assume that they will be used to force the dog....I've seen people put more pressure and physical harm into their dogs forcing them manually into a down. You suspect the level will be raised for punishment purposes. You could be right, some people do that, though the proper (yes, this is a questionable use of the word "proper") time that levels are raised is dependent on the level of drive the dog is in....this can change in a split second, and can change subtly (reason I prefer more levels with smaller increments). It requires a lot of attention to the dog, and engagement is important to keep a good read on the dog. Praise, toys and treats are usually used in conjunction (though I can't vouch for that particular training franchise). 

You are right though, they can be misused, I am glad though that gsdhunter has obviously done some research on their use (has actually felt them) and is going to a place that is quite knowledgeable rather than strapping and zapping like many do. I'm not trying to be snarky, but your reaction (which is understandable!!) is based in a bit of misinformation, and on ecollar use of people who use it like a remote control. It isn't necessarily used as punishment. I've touched my dog on the shoulder to get her attention, and at a low enough level (which is where it should be), it can do the same function with what should be the same amount of discomfort (though yes, I do say "should"). I'm not defending nor applauding gsdhunter's choice to use the collar....I don't know the dogs, the situation or previous training enough.....but I just wanted to clear the air on some points just because they get demonized so much (and sometimes for good reason...but it is the users and not the tool that should be condemned for the problems)


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

gsdhunter said:


> Actually you associate the stim with positive things, like treats and toys/play.


 But that's you and your perception. The dog associates the stim with something negative, something undesirable, such as looking away. Or at least he should, technically speaking. The positive things - treats toys and play - come into effect when the dog actually pays attention to you. You're not stimming the dog for looking back at you, like that wacky "teaching him both sides of the coin" thing. And if you are, you'd be far better off using a clicker.

ie: 

dog focuses on distraction = stim
dog focuses on handler = rewards

There are easy ways to achieve this without the use of an e collar.


On another note, I'm surprised that you're interested in pursuing such an approach. I've read some of your posts on that other 'positive-only' forum.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> But that's you and your perception. The dog associates the stim with something negative, something undesirable, such as looking away. Or at least he should, technically speaking. The positive things - treats toys and play - come into effect when the dog actually pays attention to you. You're not stimming the dog for looking back at you, like that wacky "teaching him both sides of the coin" thing. And if you are, you'd be far better off using a clicker.
> 
> ie:
> 
> ...



I don't know. I mean, I actually do and have used an e-collar to mark 'positive' for Bug, and not using vibration because that distressed her but low level stims didn't. Which means that the actual collar is neither positive nor negative, it simply IS. Can it be cranked up to the point where it's negative - YES! and I've used it for that. Does it have to be? No. 

So automatically saying the dog thinks it's negative when it can be used as a CLICKER to mean 'yay food, do that some more' seems a bit ... deliberately blind. That said, the actual approach here is weird, and I don't see much benefit if you don't have a dog who can't hear a clicker or marker word.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Okay so at this point I'm kind of confused. 

gsdhunter; could you explain how the collar is supposed to be used/how you intend to use it?


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

First of all, Sit Means Sit instructors are not experts in anything. Unless you think the average PetSmart trainer is an expert in something. 

Secondly, comparing a shock collar to a tens unit is like comparing a dishwasher to a TV. They are both things that use electricity, but perform entirely different functions. (I have used a tens.) DOn't fool yourselves, shock collars exist to _cause _pain, not to treat pain. If you have a collar with a very light setting, you might be able to use it on some deaf dogs, but you're not treating chronic pain with the thing.

Thirdly, unless your dog is deaf, gsdhunter, I'm not sure why you'd need a shock collar for "focus", or even what focus means here. If your dog isn't focusing on you, that's an issue of training to distractions. At best, using a shock collar to get around distractions is lazy. At best. Nobody needs a shock collar to train focus. Before you pay money to Fred Hassan's shock collar empire, you might want to know what he trains his trainers.









The dog in question. That is not a happy dog.


> We counted *74 *times when Sonny was being shocked in the course of 8 1/2 minutes of training. However, some of these may have been part of longer continuous shocks, so the number of shocks might be fewer and the duration of the shocks longer. We did witness some shocks that were at least 15 seconds long and some that were likely longer.
> 
> ...
> 
> The shock is used to elicit about eight different behaviors: approach trainer, walk with trainer, sit, eye contact, mount platform, sit on platform, jump, stay. The trainer is using body language of which he largely appears to be unaware. There are no clear transitions between training one behavior and the next, and he generally switches without giving the dog a clue that he has done so. He changes criteria at will and the dog is left in pain and confusion. For instance, you can see the dog offering a sit when he is asked to jump. The sit was recently the behavior that turned off the shock. The trainer also seems to change from training the dog a default behavior of accompanying him to shocking to get him to stay while he walks away, within the space of a few seconds, with no transition. Likewise, the dog is shocked until he gets on the platform for a good portion of the session. Towards the end, with no notice, the dog is shocked while on the platform when the trainer wants eye contact.


Read the whole review of the video. It's sickening.


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> Secondly, comparing a shock collar to a tens unit is like comparing a dishwasher to a TV. They are both things that use electricity, but perform entirely different functions. (I have used a tens.) DOn't fool yourselves, shock collars exist to _cause _pain, not to treat pain. If you have a collar with a very light setting, you might be able to use it on some deaf dogs, but you're not treating chronic pain with the thing.


 Actually, the tens and the e collar do work on the same principle, but, with a tens unit, there is a gel used that ensures that when it is turned up it doesn't cause pain.....I've had the gel not be in the right spot, and it was cranked....and DARN that tens hurt!!! Shock collars were, originally intended to cause pain, they had one level, maybe two and the intention was to make the dog hurt, and hurt badly (I don't think anyone has any illusion that it has any function for treating pain....but it does work on a very similar principle...two points and electricity). But, they don't have to hurt, they do cause some level of discomfort, there is no question there, but I can't see it comfortable being dragged on a leash either, or being hit by a car. 

I do agree though, that video is horrible, the trainer is obviously a problem (and of course, in the franchise, there are going to be different trainers with different ideas, different levels of ability and caring). Way too many commands, way before the dog knows how to do them. My concern with Sit means Sit is which trainer is actually going to be doing the training, and is that INDIVIDUAL any good, forget the reputation of the franchise. 

On the other hand, here is a video of a much better training session (and note, there is a previous tutorial that he has, and it is to teach the dog first without the collar.....something that I find quite important...the collar is for getting more consistent response, and the intention is to phase it out). 





I'm not a fan of using it early in training, especially at the beginning of training ANY command, and I don't personally like using it for anything other than the more safety-oriented commands (recall, and if necessary leave it). Don't get me wrong, I get the point that they can hurt, and do cause at very least some discomfort. They CAN ruin a dog if used improperly or used on the wrong dog. They are however, and can be very useful tools for both obedience training and (IMO more importantly) helping keep the dog safe. The thing is though, to me it is the focus on the bad points of it (and yes, there are many....most of which are the people holding the controls), that can get them banned. They have helped training some dogs, and personally has helped me have much better off leash control and safety for Caeda, who I know would be much less happy if she had to be on a leash/line all of the time. I'm not the perfect trainer with the e collar, I've screwed up and admit it (and have been gifted with the most forgiving dog!), but fact is, I don't think they should be banned (like we were talking about in the other thread on that specifically....) and it is the focus on the bad of them that can get them banned, and the closed minded (no offence to anyone who doesn't like them...) stance from so many as well as statements made with only partial information rather than understanding.....so what I'm doing here is just pointing out the other side of the argument. As for Sit means Sit....I think there are better options than that particular franchise and the collars they insist on using.


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I would never train with that guy. The owner of this franchise was a trainer before starting his sms franchise. They use a collar like a tap on the shoulder. It is not to hurt the dog by any means. 

I want to be offended that I was called lazy, but I'm not going to be. I do so much work with my dog, it's not even funny. I'm using the collar to help him. I used to be a huge ecollar hater, but I decided to have an open mind, and I certainly learned a lot.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't really understand what they're doing with the collar that couldn't be achieved with easier-to-understand (for human and dog) methods. Can someone explain?


----------



## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I don't really understand what they're doing with the collar that couldn't be achieved with easier-to-understand (for human and dog) methods. Can someone explain?


That's my question too. 

Seems to me that for *most* static shocks are aversive, though I would believe there are outliers. I had understood that was the strength of ecollars - which I'm not fundamentally against. It also seems to be the way that SMS uses the collar. Stimming as a correction. If its an effective method the collar itself must therefore be an aversive to the dog. If, on the other hand its being associated with treats and play, that seems like an attempt to make it a reinforcer, or at least a positive marker. But why try to recondition an aversive when you can just use a neutral marker like a click? As for the video... You can't use the collar both ways on the same dog, just doesn't make sense.

When it comes down to it, I'm really not a fan of excessive force. Teaching basic behaviours using e-collars is just not necessary. There are better, kinder tools out there. I can see it being useful in carefully selected dogs and situations for proofing and quick extinction, but 101 teaching? Why? Maybe its just my inexperience but I honestly can't see why its necessary.


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

aiw said:


> Stimming as a correction. If its an effective method the collar itself must therefore be an aversive to the dog. If, on the other hand its being associated with treats and play, that seems like an attempt to make it a reinforcer, or at least a positive marker. But why try to recondition an aversive when you can just use a neutral marker like a click? As for the video... You can't use the collar both ways on the same dog, just doesn't make sense..


The collar can't be used both ways on the same dog, unless you have a collar that stims and beeps....in which case you could choose one of those (most likely the beep) to act as a clicker type of thing. That is a decision that has to be made before even putting the collar on, it isn't something that can be switched half way through. Most people who train with the e collar use treats in conjunction as a treat, not in association with the stim, but in association with the stim ending, which occurs when the dog does the desired behavior, so there are (in theory) two positives there...first the stim gets turned off, second the treat. There are some who associate the stim directly with treats, either with low level stuff to act as a clicker (which I find odd), or higher levels for who knows what reason...the second I personally think are bizzarre and questionable. Of course the other use of treats in e collar training is the training that should come before the collar gets used. 



Crantastic said:


> I don't really understand what they're doing with the collar that couldn't be achieved with easier-to-understand (for human and dog) methods. Can someone explain?


Well....I'll put forth an argument here that could be considered tenuous, I admit, I've heard it made before and I do think is somewhat viable. The collar can be used as a communication tool to say "no, that isn't the right thing" (and should be done so as gently as possible IMO), there is no other clear way to tell the dog they are not performing as desired other than withholding treats, or creating a negative marker of some kind (which requires causing negative sensations in one way or the other), and negative markers don't last long....the collar can usually have a sustained stim of up to about 8 seconds on most models (there is also a short, plusing 'nick' setting on most of them). It can be, for example, the same as asking your dog to sit, then saying "No, No, No, No, No, No" (if your negative marker is no), "Yes" when the dog sits. Using the collar stim (Low level of course!!! IMO) can be clearer than the speaking of No, so it can be effective that way.

I don't personally like using it for basic commands (except for some short proofing exercises I've done at long distance for sit and down). I tend to use it for things that I have found NO way of doing otherwise, and that is the recall. IMO it is a different experience for a dog to be practicing recall with a longline than without any kind of restraint....plus there is training vs. real life experience.....at some point, that long line will likely come off, the e collar helps (IMO) to prepare for that, by training, sans longline in some more difficult situations (forest for example, where a longline can be a nightmare!!), or at a distance longer than the longline. It also has the ability (well, some do) to stop a dog in its tracks if absolutely necessary. IMO there is NO such thing as 100% recall, there is 99% at best, with 1% of situations you just haven't been able to prepare for. I can have Caeda outside, and she has that imaginary 100% recall....if something happens that I haven't prepared for, and I have her outside without a line and she dashes for the road, she can be up to 400 feet away and I can stop her (she may be stubborn, but I don't think she'll blast through the collar completely, especially since she understands what it means), I don't like using it that way, I've put hours and hours in teaching her at low level to avoid having to do that....but it is there just in case. I could yell at the top of my lungs if she were in full drive she wouldn't hear...but I do have a way to communicate to her (whether that communication is a tap on the shoulder or a smack if I see her about to get killed on the road). She has it on whenever she goes outside if she is not on leash....if she were a door dasher, she would probably have it on pretty much all day, but she isn't (anymore).


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm not addressing the rest:



> here is no other clear way to tell the dog they are not performing as desired other than withholding treats, or creating a negative marker of some kind (which requires causing negative sensations in one way or the other)


This really isn't true. I use no reward markers all the time and they involve nothing more than a verbal 'nope' and work just fine even for my hardest headed, actually has drive, dog. You don't need a negative sensation to communicate 'try again' to a dog. You just really, really don't. I'm obviously not anti-e-collar or anything but that particular statement's just pure fallacy. If a dog can learn 'YES' gets them what they want, they can learn something else means they aren't getting one.


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

CptJack said:


> This really isn't true. I use no reward markers all the time and they involve nothing more than a verbal 'nope' and work just fine even for my hardest headed, actually has drive, dog. You don't need a negative sensation to communicate 'try again' to a dog. You just really, really don't. I'm obviously not anti-e-collar or anything but that particular statement's just pure fallacy. If a dog can learn 'YES' gets them what they want, they can learn something else means they aren't getting one.


 I guess I overstated that there is no other clear way (probably because I was thinking of long distance recall in my head....and hadn't had enough coffee lol), though I have found with Caeda in particular, the no reward marker meant not a thing to her in most cases, especially for recall and if there was something she found more rewarding than the treat or tug (she is not hugely food driven, and sometimes her tug mood will fluctuate wildly if there is something cool smelling around). If I'm working on smaller behaviors where I already have her attention and we have close proximity...no reward markers can be pretty clear for her.


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

^^ that's exactly how Hunter is, low toy and food motivated. Not getting a treat means nothing to him.

The purpose of the ecollar is to give the dog a tap on the shoulder. You use the lowest stim possible, yes this can mean using a higher stim in a higher distraction area. Think of it this way: you are sitting around at home doing nothing. Your phone is on your pocket on vibrate. Someone calls and you feel it, so you answer the phone. Scenario two. You have your phone on vibrate in your pocket, but now you are listening to music while doing chores around the house. Someone calls and your phone vibrates. Do you feel it? Probably not. I bet everyone can think of a time that their phone went off and they didn't feel it because they were busy. Same goes with the dog.


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Except that if I didn't notice my phone vibrating because I was busy I would probably just miss the call. To go with the e collar analogy, it would be like my phone started sending me electric/static shocks if I didn't pick it up the first time it rang. In that case I would either a) become more attentive to the phone and want to pick it up as soon as possible or b) get used to the shock so I don't notice it until the 3rd or 4th time when the shock is so strong I start to feel it again or c) I stop carrying that phone around because it was hurting me. Some dogs will respond quickly when you introduce an aversive and some will shut down or start to ignore it so you have to turn the stim up higher and higher to get a reaction. 

I'm not saying e collars are wrong in all situations but they aren't for every dog or every situation. Just be aware of your dogs reaction.


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Gally said:


> Except that if I didn't notice my phone vibrating because I was busy I would probably just miss the call. To go with the e collar analogy, it would be like my phone started sending me electric/static shocks if I didn't pick it up the first time it rang. In that case I would either a) become more attentive to the phone and want to pick it up as soon as possible or b) get used to the shock so I don't notice it until the 3rd or 4th time when the shock is so strong I start to feel it again or c) I stop carrying that phone around because it was hurting me. Some dogs will respond quickly when you introduce an aversive and some will shut down or start to ignore it so you have to turn the stim up higher and higher to get a reaction.
> 
> I'm not saying e collars are wrong in all situations but they aren't for every dog or every situation. Just be aware of your dogs reaction.


Absolutely I agree! It can very easily be used wrong, and it does require some really really careful observation of the dog, and careful weighing of whether it is right for the dog or not (or the owner....anyone with a fast temper really shouldn't touch one ever).

Oddly enough, despite all of the arguments I've made (and I make them mostly because I do see the good points and good potential in ecollars for some dogs), I think I'd be considered the most anti-ecollar person you'll find that uses them. They deserve a LOT of respect and caution as a tool, I clench up most of the time when people mention they want to use one, they can do a lot of damage, but I tend to talk about the good they can do (and try to pair that with a lot of cautions) because I know they can be good, and I really don't want to see them banned (though some regulation would be nice if it were feasible).


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Greater Swiss said:


> On the other hand, here is a video of a much better training session (and note, there is a previous tutorial that he has, and it is to teach the dog first without the collar.....something that I find quite important...the collar is for getting more consistent response, and the intention is to phase it out).


 I watched the video, and I also watched part one without the collar. With the way the dog is responding in part one I don't really see any need to introduce the collar as a means of getting a more consistent response. Seems as though that dog was responding quite well, as it was. Eagerness was readily apparent. Although imo there was an over-abundance of the handler 'leading' the dog with body language. If anything I would've reduced that aspect during phase two, to afford the dog more opportunity to choose to respond entirely on his own accord, rather than use the introduction of the collar, as a means of gaining more consistency.

And not to be unduly critical, but I thought his timing and consistency of the markers (deviation) could also use a bit of improvement. Just my thoughts.


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> I watched the video, and I also watched part one without the collar. With the way the dog is responding in part one I don't really see any need to introduce the collar as a means of getting a more consistent response. Seems as though that dog was responding quite well, as it was. Eagerness was readily apparent. Although imo there was an over-abundance of the handler 'leading' the dog with body language. If anything I would've reduced that aspect during phase two, to afford the dog more opportunity to choose to respond entirely on his own accord, rather than use the introduction of the collar, as a means of gaining more consistency.
> 
> And not to be unduly critical, but I thought his timing and consistency of the markers (deviation) could also use a bit of improvement. Just my thoughts.


I do agree with you on all of that, I really thought it was an unnecessary addition for that command, and that dog....more than anything I included the video to point out that using one doesn't always mean a dog acting like the one in the previous video. I'm also not a fan of using it for basic stuff like sit, and place....my preference is only the important stuff (recall) and perhaps for some distance stuff where it really does make some degree of communication easier. It could be argued that using a longline, leash or whatever is guiding the dog a lot too....perhaps more than body language (though, that is a matter of opinion as far as whether the dog finds the leash or the body language more guiding...something we'll likely never know). Either way, I'm just trying to balance the argument with some examples showing it not cowing or scaring the dog (definitely not in any way I could tell anyway). Whether it was a necessary part of training, IMO, not really, but was it being used in a pretty humane way...I would say yes. 

It is completely true that for the most part, and with some dogs (maybe most dogs), every command can be accomplished without an ecollar. Is it faster with an e collar (and using it without frying the dog), possibly, for recall in particular I would say yes. Is it lazy to do it faster. Perhaps yes. I do have one defense to the laziness thing though.....despite the fact that I'm very committed to training Caeda, if I had trained her recall without the collar, I would have had to do it for at least an hour a day, every day for her life so far, and I'm not positive she'd be quite as reliable even at 3 without the collar. Yeah, coulda done it perhaps without it...but that would have been a few years without any off leash freedom (for a dog that I still suspect has some minor leash reactivity, which I still work on). That's my girl though, who is stubborn and independent. I've seen dogs with recall as good as hers at 1 that never saw an ecollar.


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I decided not to go with them for training because they are located far from me and I just don't have enough money right now.

I Joined Lou castle's site and am planning on buying an ecollar as soon as I have a little money for a nice one.


----------



## PurplePointer (Jul 4, 2014)

I know they are franchised, but I wasn't impressed with ours. I had them come out and do the demo and I wouldn't use them. 

Background on my dog: Mick is a trained hunting dog, he was trained by a man who trains bird dogs for a living. He know what an ecollar is and that it is used as a correction. 

So some things I didn't like about sit means sit
1. They are seriously expensive, over $300 for only 3 training sessions.
2. They stood in the middle of the road to do a demo with my dog. They put up all sorts of crazy signs, I felt like they were more concerned with putting on a show than learning about my dog and goals.
3. They try and do a hard sell, if you sign up for lessons in the next 24 hours we give you the $300 rate not the $400 rate. 
4. The trainer at our was bonkers, he is standing in the middle of the road trying to get my dog to come without using words by shocking him, my poor dog was so confused.

I used to think ecollars were bad, then I tried it on myself and I listened to my husband about the most effective way to use it. He is on the gundog forums and almost everyone is that world uses collars. With some reading it seems the best way to use the collar is not to use it to train the dog, but rather to reinforce commands the dog already knows, but is ignoring especially offleash and in hunting when the dog can be up to 1/4 - 1/2 miles away away.


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

Thank you for your reply, very helpful! 

I Did decide not to go with them, but am still looking at ecollars. Which brand/model would you recommend?


----------



## PurplePointer (Jul 4, 2014)

From what I read before we bought ours. Tri-tronics used to have the best collars, but them they got bought out by Garmin and people have had mixed results with Garmin. We went with the 2nd most recommended one the dogtra. I have been really happy with it, it's been in the rain, mud, rolled on and works great. We have the 300m, it has plenty of settings, unless you have a seriously big dog I can't see needing higher levels. The vibrate feature is also nice to have as a recall if you are letting your dog far away. I went hiking the first time this summer with the dog and the collar and it was great. The dog could explore and I could just give a vibrate and he would come bounding back.. Much nicer than shouting at the dog in the woods.


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

Darn I was hoping you wouldn't say dogtra! I know Lou castle recommends them, but they are out of my price range right now  I've been scanning ebay like crazy!


----------



## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

Ahhh just broke down and bought a used dogtra 1500ncp on eBay for cheap! I can't wait to start using it and enjoy the freedoms it will allow us!


----------



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Our Dogtra has done us well, although we barely use it, she still wears it when we go on off leash excursions, its been in the ocean and in regular water for swims, the controller has dropped off of our deck (above a walk out basement...so pretty much two floors up!), still in good working condition after about 3 years or so. Only problem we had was after about 2 years (being turned on daily, though rarely actually used for stim or even vibrate), the battery in the controller started discharging really fast. Replacement batteries can be bought though. Expensive, but well worth it. We did for a short time try an Einstein, yeah, within a month the antenna fell off, and it came with a crack in the casing, which grew in the space of a week (should have returned it, but didn't use it enough to notice how bad it got!). 

Just make sure you do careful, low setting initial training before you use it for taking advantage of the freedoms. I didn't do off-leash hikes/walks with Caeda for at least over 6 months worth of training. Basically....train careful and low (I'm talking recall here), use treats too!! Once you get to a point where you are likely to forget the controller inside, or just forget to turn it on because you don't need it, is pretty much when you're very ready for serious off leash fun.


----------

