# How do you know when you're pushing too hard/expecting too much?



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Someone at agility class tonight realized Molly was a year old, looked shocked and said that she always let her puppies by puppies and didn't try and do much with them until they were two.

I get it. I don't even disagree with her. I also know, that with Molly in particular, I tend to have to forcibly remind myself that she. is. a. puppy. I try to keep it in line and keep my expectations reasonable. We don't train every day. We certainly don't do agility drills every day. 

But I find myself wondering if I'd even NOTICE if I really was pushing too hard. I certainly didn't with Kylie, until Kylie stressed out big time. So...how do *you* gauge this stuff with your dogs (I understand it's going to vary)?


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## mandasannie (Oct 14, 2014)

I usually keep any training session with Ellie under an hour. Classes are an hour and I can always tell when the hour is up without looking at a clock because her focus is gone and her reactivity goes up. I have no issue expecting a lot out of Ellie during a training session at home, but we usually keep them to less than 20 min because I tend to get sick of it.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Haa. I started Kairi in agility at 11 months. Ember is already in agility classes! It doesn't have to be about "not letting your dog be a puppy". It is about confidence building, distraction training and most importantly, bonding. Anything you do with your dog that is a game is just a game. I mean obviously you can put too much pressure and expectation on them... but geez. 

As for when to know.. I don't really know. Very rarely does Kairi shut down to tell me what I'm doing is just too much because she isn't that type of dog. I just have to look extra closely for signs that what I'm doing isn't working and is not fun for the dog. That's no help to you though because you know that! If the dog is having fun and learning.. and you are having fun, go for it! Who cares what so and so thinks.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Man, my actual training sessions are so far under an hour it's ridiculous. I MIGHT be out a whole hour, but the bulk of it's play - Molly, Kylie, or anyone else. Somewhere from 'play break after every rep' to 'we do a whole five minutes and then play'. That's at home. Molly has group classes that contain quite a bit of downtime just by the nature of taking turns. Kylie's private lessons are half an hour, and even those get a solid break where she runs around and blows off steam in the middle (and needs to or she goes blah on course). 

I don't worry about this so much with Kylie. Kylie shows signs of stress, pretty clearly now that I know how to look for them. She goes flat, she gets slow, she sniffs and is slow coming off the start line and her ears start doing yoda impressions and I can just TELL she's not happy. I originally blamed heat, but in retrospect it was just too much too fast and not enough breaks and fun. Not that I'm perfect NOW - I missed her stressing weaves until the DAY of the trial, but I honestly think the trial itself is what pushed her over the edge. Like it just suddenly became too much, with not enough reward, and she just wasn't ready to compete in that class. 

Thud, Jack, Bug - I don't do enough with to worry over, and every single last one of them will WALK AWAY from me if they're fed up or finished.

Molly, I worry more about. Molly... never says die. Molly doesn't quit. Molly doesn't shut down. Molly will play any stupid game I want to play with her, for as long as I want to play it. Molly has never had a SILLY moment in her life, or a goofy one. Even when the games we were playing were fetch or chase me or tug and she was 8-9-10 weeks old she was intense about it. So I feel like I've almost got to... guess when enough is enough and call it on her behalf. Sometimes, I can sort of see her getting frantic and her focus dissolving if she's working at something hard for her for too long, but that's... the only thing I've ever seen and I have only seen it once or twice. 

Maybe I'm just not used to a dog who wants to work, and has never actually acted much like a puppy in her life? I don't know, but I WORRY now that it's been brought up, that maybe I'm pushing too fast and too hard, or that I broke her early or something.

(Mostly, I don't think I did. Pup's actually 13 months old. She's seen very little equipment. She's just starting to string some of those pieces into short sequences. If I pushed anything it was the refusal to drop out of class, but instead continue to work on her dog reactivity. I DO constantly keep an eye on her for fear of melting her down, though, because I really am not sure how I'd KNOW.)


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## mandasannie (Oct 14, 2014)

I should clarify.. when I say an hour or even 20 min at home that is not straight training by any means! There are always breaks in class and at home too. Ellie is my first dog so I probably shouldn't give any training advice, but it sounds to me that Molly just has a "want to work" personality. If it makes you feel better then I would just pick an end time. I am sure she is enjoying herself and definitely not broken.

Also I totally get the yoda comment, thats one of Ellie's nicknames.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I know with training our Shih Tzu x Maltese in Agility, none of them wanted to do things over and over which made it hard when the trainer we were going to was used to sport or working dogs. It really makes a difference what the temperament of the dog is, some Border Collies for instance would just keep working till they dropped. Our Shih Tzu x Maltese learned fast and turned out good Agility dogs but we made a point of not "boring" them. Most of our training sessions at home were sometimes only 10 or 15 minutes.

Kris, my Doberman, has a lot of energy and I can work her longer and harder and she is great with it and never wants to quit. I still only do 10 or 15 minutes sessions, give her a break and then do some more but I do that several times.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Reading back over these responses and my own comments, I think maybe what I'm actually a little afraid of is that Molly and I are going to get stuck in an obsessive feedback loop.

Kylie forces me to take mistakes in stride, to celebrate small victories, and to make SURE that it's about the fun and the relationship stays first. Molly and I's relationship lately is really, really good and agility is making it better, but she takes it *so* seriously. She takes *everything* seriously. She forces me to take training somewhat seriously, or I have a huge mess in short order. I'm pretty danged sure she's never going to blow me off -ever. She's never going to walk away. She's never going to be the one that says I HAVE HAD ENOUGH! 

I guess, ultimately, what I need is really to just believe that if I start losing the fun and relationship and play with my dogs as my focus and priority, that my instructor or some other people will actually smack me upside the head. I don't WANT to take this seriously. I just like it as a fun activity to do with my dogs and to be around other dog people.

Because otherwise ForTheLove is right: Does it really matter if what I'm teaching is sit pretty or a stopped contact or a treadle? I don't know, I think that remark, casual as it was, hit a nerve with me. And some insecurity, because I'm not sure Molly was ever 'just a puppy' to start with. Not the way this woman meant. That kind of makes me sad for Molly - even if Molly would probably not appreciate the sentiment.

I dunno. Thinky-thoughts. I should get a blog, but I'd rather talk to you folks.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I haven't been doing dog sport stuff all that long, but I've definitely seen people getting frustrated with their young dogs when it's pretty obvious the pup is just overtired or has run out of attention span, or is just acting like a normal healthy puppy with a normal healthy underdeveloped puppy brain. I think as long as the pup is clearly into it, and has other opportunities to goof off, it doesn't count as overkill to train pretty hard. I think the key is reading the dog, and keeping it about having fun with the dog _today_ rather than having everything be about some looming future goal or image of perfection.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Why can't a dog "be a puppy" and do activities, too? That makes no sense to me. With very few breaks, Squash has been in one class/activity or another basically since he came home. We've dabbled in obedience, tricks classes, agility, lure coursing, nosework, rally, and of course mushing... just whatever struck my fancy at the time. None of it has anything to do with being a puppy or not. I can't even imagine waiting until an arbitrary age to start doing stuff, we've built such a relationship through doing stuff together. 

I'm planning the same with Toast - trust me, there would be NO living with him if we weren't doing classes and activities and stuff. 

To answer your question, generally I try to always view everything as tricks/games for the sake of our relationship rather than for the sake of the activity itself. Like, "we do agility together" instead of "I do agility," kwim? I keep relatively low expectations and it helps a lot. If I'm pushing too hard, Squash checks out big time. His mind just goes bye bye. Toast gets hyper crazypants, normally he has laser focus and he becomes just almost frantically unable to hold focus or attention.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> Why can't a dog "be a puppy" and do activities, too?


I don't know, because I don't actually know that I entirely know what she meant. Could have been what Parus said. Goodness knows I think we've all seen some of this stuff from time to time. Could have just been she didn't bother trying to teach sports stuff until the dog quit having its brain fall out, might mean that she waits until 2 to apply any pressure at all, might mean something else entirely that I haven't grasped. It was a pretty brief exchange, it was just one that left me thinking and eyeballing myself.

I will say, this:



> Toast gets hyper crazypants, normally he has laser focus and he becomes just almost frantically unable to hold focus or attention.


Makes me feel better. Molly isn't exactly the same but the few times I've identified anything, she's become hyper-crazypants and frantic. She doesn't really stop focusing, but she does stop paying attention and listening. She just... turns sort of frantically OCD, I guess. Gets stuck in a loop doing the same behavior repeatedly. (Ie: If we're working on something and she's not getting it because it's not easy enough for her, she'll start looping that behavior without prompting until interrupted). Basically she's insane, but at least she does do something that is recognizably a sign of stress.

All of that said, though: 



> I think as long as the pup is clearly into it, and has other opportunities to goof off


I guess sort of define goof off, now? Non-structured energy burning?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Haven't read the responses but generally if it feels forced it probably is.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Haven't read the responses but generally if it feels forced it probably is.


Oh, it feels GREAT until I stop and overanalyze it


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I guess sort of define goof off, now? Non-structured energy burning?


I think the Toast vs. the sprinkler video that sassafrass posted is a pretty perfect example. There was no right or wrong way for the puppy to engage or disengage with the sprinkler. Well, besides eating it, I guess. Basically games, exploration, exercise that doesn't have rules or expectations beyond basic safety.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parus said:


> I think the Toast vs. the sprinkler video that sassafrass posted is a pretty perfect example. There was no right or wrong way for the puppy to engage or disengage with the sprinkler. Well, besides eating it, I guess. Basically games, exploration, exercise that doesn't have rules or expectations beyond basic safety.


Oh, well in that case we're gold. She spends 98% of her time doing things where the only rules are related to safety, and having fun. She's not SILLY about them, but she's having fun and there aren't any rules aside from very minimal ones for safety. At least, if we're just including rules set by me. 

Honestly, I like my relationship with Molly. I like what it's turning into. I like working (and playing) with her. I enjoy learning with her. I LOVE where we're going and I LOVE this dog. It is just unlike any relationship I've had with any other dog in my life, and makes me second guess myself sometimes. Ie: Did I break my puppy, because she apparently only has two settings: On, 2000% intensity/focus/dedication to the task, even if it's dancing with me in the kitchen, or off - which is asleep. 

Basically 'doing' has never, ever, been such a fundamental part of my relationship with a dog before and occasionally it feels a little alien. Having a dog hanging off my every word is just downright WEIRD a lot of the time. I love it, it's awesome, she's awesome, but it's weird.

**ETA::* And that is not supposed to sound special snowflakey. I KNOW there are lots of dogs out there like that. She's just the first one I've lived with for more than a couple of months or so. And I spent a whole lot of time in my early life with scenthounds and pyrs.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> It is just unlike any relationship I've had with any other dog in my life, and makes me second guess myself sometimes. Ie: Did I break my puppy, because she apparently only has two settings: On, 2000% intensity/focus/dedication to the task, even if it's dancing with me in the kitchen, or off - which is asleep.
> 
> Basically 'doing' has never, ever, been such a fundamental part of my relationship with a dog before and occasionally it feels a little alien. Having a dog hanging off my every word is just downright WEIRD a lot of the time. I love it, it's awesome, she's awesome, but it's weird.


IDK, I'm not an expert on adolescent herders, but that sounds pretty normal to me for a BC. A pyr is on the job when it's ambling around supervising its domain. A BC is on the job when it's engaged with a handler and a task. Different bred-in inclinations and relationships to humans.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Longer response: I don't really worry about pushing too hard. It's never really been a problem with me and my dogs I feel. I've always done what I feel is best for my dogs regarding sports and if I had any 'do overs' I wouldn't have anything to change. 

With Hank he is very very good at agility and at nosework. He learns very quickly and has a very high work ethic. He does something related to agility pretty much daily but that's really because he needs something every day. Many days it's just stupid games in my yard or house involving playing with contacts or teeter work or wraps, etc. It helps with agility but it's mostly there to give Hank an outlet for his need to work and do something with me. He is a lot easier to live with if he gets a little work thrown his way most days. I'm very happy with our progression. There's things he's learned very fast- like weaves. He weaved in just a few weeks. But that was right for him and he was old enough and understood the foundation pieces. No need to drag things out longer than he needed. But the teeter I am doing slowly because he needs that. 

I dunno. It's not rocket science lol. My biggest concern has nothing to do with pressuring the dog at all, it's just getting foundations down solid because I don't want to rush to trial when I am hoping for a long and honestly competitive career with Hank. We could probably fumble through a full jumpers/jumpers with weaves course now. But I want things SOLID. Hence why after over 6 months of classes Hank just did a full dog walk this week. But when we did the dog walk this week he freaking nailed it and all the pieces. Because he had full understanding of all the specific criteria. His foundation is very solid. So I'm happy. I just don't want to fumble pieces together, I want a fast dog that understands and performs things very well. I want to train things very thoroughly. Since I'm focusing so much on foundations I haven't felt like I've been rushing Hank at all. 

I see some people worry about trialling by 18 months/minimum age. To start with I got Hank older so he's just plain gonna be older when he debuts but I don't care when we start trialling. I'll wait till he's very ready. I also know some people who wait till the dog matures, even a friend who got a sport bred BC pup a didn't do classes till the dog was a year and a half so her dog could mature some first. Hank started classes about a month and a half after I got him and was around 10/11 months old. I know another friend with her sport BC in puppy agility classes at 4 months. Both have high goals for their pups. I don't think there's a 'right' decision. And the dog decides what the wrong decision is.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

It's really obvious with Watson. He wears his heart on his sleeve and if he's not happy about what we're doing, he will let me know. He bounces back from it pretty quickly though, and after a short break of a couple days or a week he's back to himself. I think he's just kind of up and down in general. Some days it's too much for him and other days it's not. I've learned to lower my expectations a lot and to be happy with what he can give that day.

As far as puppies, I don't see why you would wait to work with a dog until they were 2. Back in the day when training methods were harsh and required maturity, sure. But now most training is very positive and all about listening to the dog, so I don't think there are any rules. If the dog is happy and engaged, keep doing what you're doing. 

The only thing I can think that would be a lot of pressure for a young dog is obstacles. I'm not really interested in starting full agility obstacles until a year old or so. But that's more about physical pressure and making sure we took time to do foundations than it is mental pressure.

ETA: One reason I don't think I should get a BC is I tend towards being serious and perfectionistic. I think if I had a dog who was too much like me, we might feed off of each other in a bad way. Or we could have the greatest partnership ever - not sure.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

parus said:


> I haven't been doing dog sport stuff all that long, but I've definitely seen people getting frustrated with their young dogs when it's pretty obvious the pup is just overtired or has run out of attention span, or is just acting like a normal healthy puppy with a normal healthy underdeveloped puppy brain. I think as long as the pup is clearly into it, and has other opportunities to goof off, it doesn't count as overkill to train pretty hard. I think the key is reading the dog, and keeping it about having fun with the dog _today_ rather than having everything be about some looming future goal or image of perfection.


Well devil's advocate moment. I don't think goals are a bad thing and training more rigorously is a bad thing. I think goals need to be applied correctly vs 'Hank is going to win regionals and if he doesn't I will be disappointed in him'. But wanting to train well and train competitively vs 'just for fun today' I think is just fine. Hank has a much more structured training program than my other dogs but he thrives in it and I like having a real plan of action about things. I know more than when I started Mia and Summer and Hank is a drivier dog. I do have goals for where I want Hank and our training to go but it's not specific wins or titles or what have you. Just how I'd like to see our runs and our team work during our runs. And it will take a lot of work to get to that point.

Training hard and thoroughly at the baby levels is to me very important. I see more people skip that than people I worry about doing too much foundation work when the dog is young.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Well devil's advocate moment. I don't think goals are a bad thing and training more rigorously is a bad thing. I think goals need to be applied correctly vs 'Hank is going to win regionals and if he doesn't I will be disappointed in him'. But wanting to train well and train competitively vs 'just for fun today' I think is just fine. Hank has a much more structured training program than my other dogs but he thrives in it and I like having a real plan of action about things. I know more than when I started Mia and Summer and Hank is a drivier dog. I do have goals for where I want Hank and our training to go but it's not specific wins or titles or what have you. Just how I'd like to see our runs and our team work during our runs.
> 
> Training hard and thoroughly at the baby levels is to me very important. I see more people skip that than people I worry about doing too much foundation work when the dog is young.


I don't think that's what Parus was saying. What I took from her post is that some people have really high expectations for puppies to the point of being unrealistic, and then they get mad and blame the dog when it doesn't measure up (mostly because it's a puppy, with a puppy brain). I don't think that's the same thing as setting reasonable goals and training hard to meet them.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Agreed but I also think sometimes the picture from the outside looking in might be very different than the actual picture of what's going on. 

It's kind of like driving... All the people driving slower than me are morons and all the people driving faster than me are jerks.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Exactly, elrohwen, thanks. Clearly one is putting together pieces with a long-term goal in mind. But there's a danger there for some competitive people and perfectionists of losing joy in the day-to-day, and/or of being unrealistic about the pup's developmental level.

Eta crosspost...I don't know, dog and/or owner meltdowns are often pretty blatant.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

parus said:


> Exactly, elrohwen, thanks. Clearly one is putting together pieces with a long-term goal in mind. But there's a danger there for some competitive people and perfectionists of losing joy in the day-to-day, and/or of being unrealistic about the pup's developmental level.
> 
> Eta crosspost...I don't know, dog and/or owner meltdowns are often pretty blatant.


Yea the first rally trial I went to, there was a woman literally in tears because she scored a 98 instead of a 99.

I told my husband if I ever acted that way, he was to forbid me from participating. And then we celebrated our 71.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Yea the first rally trial I went to, there was a woman literally in tears because she scored a 98 instead of a 99.
> 
> I told my husband if I ever acted that way, he was to forbid me from participating. And then we celebrated our 71.


Yep. I watched a woman in a foundations agility class loose a little handling competition, YANK her dog out of the building by the leash and stomp off crying. A woman in my most recent foundations class with Molly had her year old golden do something puppy goofy and SHE HIT THE DOG IN THE SIDE and snarled in its face. Um. Really? REALLY?! I mean, that kind of thing is NOT going to fly with my instructor, but it's a thing. People I've seen at my couple of trials have been great.

And it's a scary, scary thing.

(As an aside, I'm also concerned about foundations and do work those pretty good with Molly - more than I did with Kylie, for sure: Dog's had 6 months of foundation training before she laid eyes on anything besides a tunnel, and she's yet to do full height equipment. I do not, however, intend for her to be seriously competitive and trial for a long time. I am not going to chase trials in this dog's lifetime - 6 trials a year is just about my max, maybe in a couple of years I'll get up to maybe 12 - and I don't want to. I don't CARE that much. Fun events for me to hang out at every couple of weekends, but I have other things I like doing on lots of weekends too, as well as some things I NEED to do.)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

12 trials is a lot a year lol. Really most people here don't do more than 6. We trial once a month and skip a few months a year usually. By competitive I don't mean I want to campaign for worlds I just want to be aiming to do well when we get there. I don't want to trial him before I know he is proficient enough to do well in usdaa style courses.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Well, it'll be a few years before we can consider 12, regardless, but six is doable! I don't even have to go very far to do it. Well, 5. It remains to be seen if I can find a 6 in a day's drive. Overnights for the sake of trials are probably not going to happen any time soon. (As an aside: A LOT of people I train with and at trials around here at least ARE on the road, in an RV, trialing most weekends, so my view of that is clearly skewed - not all, but a noticeable number - still nice people just MORE invested than I am).

And venue has a lot to do with speed, I'm sure. Regular Novice NADAC is just Not That Hard. I have yet to Q, but I can not tell you the last time Kylie made an error on a novice course outside trials, and even open/elite practice courses she's fine and inside time with. I need better handling strategies in places to work on my times to get them down enough for games and better handling strategies in general, but they're not that technically challenging. ...except touch 'n go. That one's hard for me, though not necessarily her.

That said, my big goal and motivation to taking Molly out to attend trials as a spectator is primarily just to get her used to the scene. I probably WILL throw her in tunnelers or something fast and easy for her first trial after she's old enough per NADAC rules, though because I want positive associations IN the ring too. I'm hitting it kind of backwards from you, but I see me NQing ourselves for not doing whole courses and for training in the ring for probably a good year or more.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I will say, this:
> 
> 
> 
> Makes me feel better. Molly isn't exactly the same but the few times I've identified anything, she's become hyper-crazypants and frantic. She doesn't really stop focusing, but she does stop paying attention and listening. She just... turns sort of frantically OCD, I guess. Gets stuck in a loop doing the same behavior repeatedly. (Ie: If we're working on something and she's not getting it because it's not easy enough for her, she'll start looping that behavior without prompting until interrupted). Basically she's insane, but at least she does do something that is recognizably a sign of stress.


This is totally Nova. At home, I try and train for 10 mins at a time. Our agility class is an hour long, though, and with so few people in this particular one, it's just too much for her. In the last 15 mins or so she goes from laser-focused to looking like she has never been trained a day in her life. She loses all that focus, stops paying attention, is easily distracted by every little thing (sniffs a lot), and does get stuck in looping behaviors sometimes.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

sassafras said:


> Yea the first rally trial I went to, there was a woman literally in tears because she scored a 98 instead of a 99.
> 
> I told my husband if I ever acted that way, he was to forbid me from participating. And then we celebrated our 71.


Hey, a Q is a Q, lol

I think sometimes those near-miss Qs are a sign of a type of good handing and training that high scores don't always display. Like, a near-miss can mean that the dog and handler kept it together and kept working despite having a rough day, or a big distraction, or.something going wrong. Like, I know a dog that only has 2 settings in Obedience and Rally, perfect or NQ.


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