# Black Papillon???



## misty073

So I was out walking at the park this morning with the girls, and this lady stops to let her dog have a sniff of my dog. It was pure black so not knowing what type of dog, I asked her and she said it was a Papillon? She said they were rare in pure black. I have never seen that before...are they rare or mixed?


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## Laurelin

Papillons used to come in solid colors however they do not anymore. They're always particolored to some extent. Some are mostly white and some are mostly colored but they always have some white on them. I would definitely think the dog is mixed.


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## Shaina

Laurelin said:


> Papillons used to come in solid colors however they do not anymore.


Any particular reason it was bred out?


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## Crantastic

I've seen some pap mixes on flickr that look like a black papillon... like this one and this one. I wonder if the owner you met knows he's a mix, or if she bought him from a petstore or somesuch. I very occasionally see "papillons" at the pet store here, and they never look quite pure to me.


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## Laurelin

Shaina said:


> Any particular reason it was bred out?


Not that I can find out. I know spanielorbust has a theory that solids were introduced with spitz breeds and bred out because it was an indicator of spitz in the lines. I've asked around but no one seems to know for sure why they were written out of the standard but it seems the colors were written out long long after the colors disappeared in the breed. (written out in the 1970s and the last pics of solids you can find are late 1800s and early 1900s)

They came in ruby, black and tan, and solid black like a lot of other spaniel breeds did.


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## Laurelin

Crantastic said:


> I've seen some pap mixes on flickr that look like a black papillon... like this one and this one. I wonder if the owner you met knows he's a mix, or if she bought him from a petstore or somesuch. *I very occasionally see "papillons" at the pet store here, and they never look quite pure to me.*


Same. I saw a litter in one store that looked like sheltie mix puppies to me more than anything else (having had both breeds, i thought they were shelties until I read the sign). I think people buy petstore dogs as purebred a lot of times when they're not. I have had someone else tell me they had a solid black papillon too. I've been reading and it just doesn't seem possible unless it was a random mutation or a cross. The modern papillon doesn't carry the gene for a solid colored dog. They're all carrying the piebald which is recessive.


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## Hallie

I prefer solid colored dogs and it would be awesome to have a solid black papillon! I think they'd be gorgeous dogs. Well unless I could have Rose, and then I'd have no need for a solid Papillon.



Crantastic said:


> I've seen some pap mixes on flickr that look like a black papillon... like this one and this one. I wonder if the owner you met knows he's a mix, or if she bought him from a petstore or somesuch. I very occasionally see "papillons" at the pet store here, and they never look quite pure to me.


That second dog is stunning.


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## Laurelin

Occasionally they do come in solid WHITE on occasion (extreme mismark).

Here shows the range of amount of white they tend to have.







And an explanation of the white spotting genes:

http://www.letitpapillons.com/info/colors/genetics.htm



> S-Series = WHITE
> 
> The S locus has 4 different alleles that determine the distribution of colored and non-colored (white) areas on the coat. The S-series only determines where the colored spots will be. The actual color of the colored spots is determined by other genes. The four alleles in dominant-to-recessive order are: S, si, sp, and sw. These alleles dictate how big and where the colored and white spots will be. In addition to the four alleles at the S series, "plus" and "minus" modifiers also affect color and the amount of white on the coat. "Plus" modifiers produce more color throughout the coat while "minus" modifiers restrict pigment and allow for more white. Further, the S-Series seems to be affected by environmental factors that play a role in determining the size and placement of the white spots. These environmental factors are not predictable and are not yet completely understood.
> 
> SELF-COLOR: The S allele allows for full pigmentation on the coat. In other words, a dog with a S allele will be of a solid color and will have virtually no white anywhere on its coat. However, because of "minus" modifiers, a small amount of white on the toes, chest, belly, or tail tip can sometimes occur. Due to selective breeding, this allele is not present in Papillons.
> 
> IRISH SPOTTING: The si allele is responsible for the Irish spotting which is characterized by white hairs covering the muzzle, chest, underbelly, tail, and one or more feet. Due to modifiers, the size of the white areas does range from small white areas to very large areas. However, generally there is more color than white on the coat. Typically the white spots tend to be symmetrical. Again, due to selective breeding, this allele seems not to be present in Papillons.
> 
> PIEBALD: The sp or piebald allele is responsible for producing a coat which is about 50% white and 50% color. Papillons are affected by the sp allele for piebald. Normally, the white areas are found on the chest, neck, legs, belly, around the loin area, and the tip of the tail. However, due to modifier genes, there is a lot of variation in the amount of white that an individual Papillon can have. Some Papillons have more color than white due to the affect of "plus" modifiers while others may have a lot more white due to "minus" modifiers. There have been a few Papillons who have had so little white that they appeared to have Irish spotting. On the other end, there are some Papillons that have had so much white that they appeared to be extreme piebald (read next section below). Historic photographs do show solid white Papillons and the FCI does accept solid white Paps. However, it seems that today, the sw allele for extreme piebald has been virtually bred out of the breed and most Papillons who have an extreme amount of white, including mismarks, are homozygous [spsp] for piebald with a lot of "minus" modifiers. Even though the exact amount of color and white spotting is not very important to breeders, provided that there is color covering both eyes and ears, some have refrained ,from breeding Papillons that are extreme at having either too much color or too much white. Some breeders point out that a mating between two very white Papillons has a greater chance of producing mismarked offspring.
> 
> EXTREME PIEBALD: The last allele in this series, and most recessive is the sw or extreme piebald pattern. In its most extreme form, the sw allele is responsible for an all white dog. Sometimes, the dog may have some color spots on its body or head particularly in a light cream color. "Plus" modifiers allow more color and less white to be present while minus modifiers restrict the presence of color and allow for more white on the body.


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## Laurelin

For interest's sake, here's the most solid colored pap I can find. He's also liver and white, which is unusual.


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## animalcraker

Geneticaly speaking the piebald in paps is a recesive gene, same as it is for cavaliers. Which means in order to breed a solid colored dog you have to have a solid colored parent. Typicaly the piebald colors are more popular, so it can be very easy to accidentally breed out the solid colored genes. This happens with quite a few breeds that used to come in more geneticaly dominant colors and now only come in 1-3 popular colors.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest

Laurelin said:


> For interest's sake, here's the most solid colored pap I can find. He's also liver and white, which is unusual.


I can add absolutely nothing to this thread, but DO WANT. What an interesting looking fellow.


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## Laurelin

I think that liver dog is interesting. What I really want is a blue pap.



Or a liver tri:



Maybe one day I'll stumble upon a breeder who accidentally produced a non-standard color.



animalcraker said:


> Geneticaly speaking the piebald in paps is a recesive gene, same as it is for cavaliers. Which means in order to breed a solid colored dog you have to have a solid colored parent. Typicaly the piebald colors are more popular, so it can be very easy to accidentally breed out the solid colored genes. This happens with quite a few breeds that used to come in more geneticaly dominant colors and now only come in 1-3 popular colors.


That's my theory too. I think it was accidentally bred out in favor of the 'flashier' parti dogs. I think a ruby pap would be very pretty though.


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## misty073

Crantastic said:


> I've seen some pap mixes on flickr that look like a black papillon... like this one and this one. I wonder if the owner you met knows he's a mix, or if she bought him from a petstore or somesuch. I very occasionally see "papillons" at the pet store here, and they never look quite pure to me.


This dog I saw looked identical to the dog in the first link you posted. I didnt think it was pure, the face just didnt look the same to me (not that I am a pap pro LOL) plus I had never heard of a pure black one (I have been a member here for a year, I thought I would have seen or heard something LOL)


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## BooLette

Laurelin said:


> Occasionally they do come in solid WHITE on occasion (extreme mismark).
> 
> Here shows the range of amount of white they tend to have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And an explanation of the white spotting genes:
> 
> http://www.letitpapillons.com/info/colors/genetics.htm


The dog in the second picture is ADORABLE! SO PRETTY!


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## spanielorbust

A white/black Papillon mixed with any other solid color toy dog would, by odds, give half solid black pups in the litter. 

As solid(self) coloring is dominant to irish or piebald/parti, the pup you saw would have had to have been mixed somewhere back a generation or two, but it could have been "mostly" Papillon, and to some owners, that is good enough, which is why that owner might insist that her dog is a Pap.

Those of us raised amongst cattle/sheep etc breeding programs (that is a lot of us from the midwest USA and prairies Canada) are quite accustomed to a system where once 4 gens has gone by from an outcross, the animal is considered pure. At one point I was actually quite shocked to find out it was different in dogs.

A few years back I noted that an American breeder had imported a few Moscow Toy Terriers, like the one below, and was selling pups from them, mixed with Papillons. I happen to love mostly colored dogs as well, which is why I took notice. She eventually took her site down, but this post reminded me about some of the solid pups she produced from her mix, which looked just like solid color Papillons.










In regards to the "why" of why solid colors were DQ'd, this is from the Metropolitan Area Papillon Club (link is below) regarding Papillon history.

_"In 1923, the papillon, still predominantly of the Phalene variety, invaded England. They were imported by Mrs. Gordon Gratrix and Mrs. M. B. Cooper of Eden Lodge, Hornsea, E. Yorks. Breeders who joined to produce the first Engish Champion, Ch. Gamin De Flandere, in 1925 from second generation imported Belgium stock and an offspring of the 1st U.S. champion, Jou Jou.

The cross breeding of drop-ear Papillons with Pomeranians created the erect ear variety of the butterfly dog. This was the desired result, and to the delight of enthusiasts, the erect ear proved to be dominant. The genetic experiment had its pitfalls however, such as the straight Spitz rear so obvious in the tintype. *It also introduced the Pomeranian`s undercoat, solid colors, liver or self-color pigmentation, and small, high set ears. *Desirable characteristics for Pomeranians but undesirable for Papillons. *To overcome these characteristics,* the earliest European and English standards, precursors of our current standard, incorporated various prohibitions that are present to this day in the AKC approved standard for the breed. They are generally presented as "faults" and "disqualifications". *The prohibitions were, and still are, couched in such severe terms to protect the breed*. They comprise most of the parts of the official standard which characterize the breed and must be considered by anyone judging the breed."​_
http://metroareapaps.org/content/view/14/28/

SOB


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## Laurelin

spanielorbust said:


> A white/black Papillon mixed with any other solid color toy dog would, by odds, give half solid black pups in the litter.
> 
> As solid(self) coloring is dominant to irish or piebald/parti, the pup you saw would have had to have been mixed somewhere back a generation or two, but it could have been "mostly" Papillon, and to some owners, that is good enough, which is why that owner might insist that her dog is a Pap.
> 
> Those of us raised amongst cattle/sheep etc breeding programs (that is a lot of us from the midwest USA and prairies Canada) are quite accustomed to a system where once 4 gens has gone by from an outcross, the animal is considered pure. At one point I was actually quite shocked to find out it was different in dogs.
> 
> A few years back I noted that an American breeder had imported a few Moscow Toy Terriers, like the one below, and was selling pups from them, mixed with Papillons. I happen to love mostly colored dogs as well, which is why I took notice. She eventually took her site down, but this post reminded me about some of the solid pups she produced from her mix, which looked just like solid color Papillons.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In regards to the "why" of why solid colors were DQ'd, this is from the Metropolitan Area Papillon Club (link is below) regarding Papillon history.
> 
> _"In 1923, the papillon, still predominantly of the Phalene variety, invaded England. They were imported by Mrs. Gordon Gratrix and Mrs. M. B. Cooper of Eden Lodge, Hornsea, E. Yorks. Breeders who joined to produce the first Engish Champion, Ch. Gamin De Flandere, in 1925 from second generation imported Belgium stock and an offspring of the 1st U.S. champion, Jou Jou.
> 
> The cross breeding of drop-ear Papillons with Pomeranians created the erect ear variety of the butterfly dog. This was the desired result, and to the delight of enthusiasts, the erect ear proved to be dominant. The genetic experiment had its pitfalls however, such as the straight Spitz rear so obvious in the tintype. *It also introduced the Pomeranian`s undercoat, solid colors, liver or self-color pigmentation, and small, high set ears. *Desirable characteristics for Pomeranians but undesirable for Papillons. *To overcome these characteristics,* the earliest European and English standards, precursors of our current standard, incorporated various prohibitions that are present to this day in the AKC approved standard for the breed. They are generally presented as "faults" and "disqualifications". *The prohibitions were, and still are, couched in such severe terms to protect the breed*. They comprise most of the parts of the official standard which characterize the breed and must be considered by anyone judging the breed."​_
> http://metroareapaps.org/content/view/14/28/
> 
> SOB


However it is important to note that's the only site claiming that's why they were bred out. I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Honestly I've been trying to research it but the more I read the less it seems clear. Most papillon breeders I have asked have no idea why solids were written out. 

Is that a pure Russkiy toy? Much prettier than most the ones I've seen. Im usually not a fan of them but that's a nice looking dog.


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## Laurelin

Also 'paperanians' (pom/paps) and 'Chions' (chi/pap) are both pretty popular in the designer dog market. A lot of these mixes tend to look mostly pap to me but the color is usually solid.


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## spanielorbust

Laurelin said:


> However it is important to note that's the only site claiming that's why they were bred out. I don't think anyone knows for sure.
> 
> Honestly I've been trying to research it but the more I read the less it seems clear. Most papillon breeders I have asked have no idea why solids were written out.


As the breeders from the early century are all dead, and the club historians often seem to want to start with 1957 as a reference point, its true, not a lot is out there about the solid coloring and the erect ears. Unless records were kept it will become even more obscure with time, but this clubs account of what happened fits with what appears to have happened in photo and pictoral accounts, and fits with coat color genetics as well.

Have you thought to ask this club that keeps this on their site for their references? Do you know when stud books for the Papillon breed became closed?

(editted to add - I just looked up the writer. Harold Gell (Debonair affix) was a Papillon judge who has passed on, but if you read the full article he references Toy Dogs and Their Ancestors for some of the ideas written.)

I found this interesting passage from Toy Dogs and Their Ancestors ( written in 1911).

_"1 The Papillon, which is the modern descendant of the Italian Spaniel on the Continent, shows the "Pomeranian" type very strongly, even to the erect ears of one of the varieties."​_
"http://chestofbooks.com/animals/dogs/Toy-Dogs-Ancestor/Chapter-II-Toy-Dog-Origin-And-History.html"



Laurelin said:


> Is that a pure Russkiy toy? Much prettier than most the ones I've seen. Im usually not a fan of them but that's a nice looking dog.


Found the image on Google images - "Moscow Toy Terrier" - I believe it is a purebred. 

SOB


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## spanielorbust

I'm supposed to be cleaning, but am instead going through old books and just found this page with a tipped eared black Papillon in a photo . . . . so thought I'd add it to this thread.










http://chestofbooks.com/food/household/Woman-Encyclopaedia-4/Curious-Foreign-Dogs.html

SOB


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## KelliCZ

Laurelin said:


> Occasionally they do come in solid WHITE on occasion (extreme mismark).
> 
> Here shows the range of amount of white they tend to have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And an explanation of the white spotting genes:
> 
> http://www.letitpapillons.com/info/colors/genetics.htm


 
Ineresting the second all white pap looks like an albino with the pink nose and blue eyes - is albinism common in paps?


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## Laurelin

spanielorbust said:


> I'm supposed to be cleaning, but am instead going through old books and just found this page with a tipped eared black Papillon in a photo . . . . so thought I'd add it to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://chestofbooks.com/food/household/Woman-Encyclopaedia-4/Curious-Foreign-Dogs.html
> 
> SOB


I've seen that pic and have it saved. It's an interesting looking dog. Can't say I'm a fan at all. It looks a lot like these papillons:










Also 1920s.

Of course they're red. Supposedly there is a very pretty red pap picture in an old (1920s) AKC book but I still can't find it. 

1923:










1936:










1948:









1959 (okay I just love the dog in the back, cracks me up)










But I have been meaning to ask that club just haven't gotten around to it yet. I've found all sorts of weird information out there but I have to remember just because something is old doesn't mean it's true. I have a really terrible old dog book laying somewhere around my house that was my grandma's. The information in it in some places is so bad it's hilarious. I need to find it and look at the pap pages.

And I'm supposed to be studying lol. If you can ever find a pic of a solid colored dog that is later than the 1920s let me know!


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## spanielorbust

To be sure, I'd never consider information "true" just because it was written at any time - now or in the past. I tend to be scientifically minded, always questionning and skeptical, which is why I find it hard to believe those ears came up without some help . . . especially when old photos of Papillons that look very much like cross breeds (the black Papillon above) can very easily be found.

I did just have a look and found that although the Papillon was introduced to Britain in 1905, the Butterfly Dog Club was not formed in Britain until 1924, so stud books could not have been closed before then . . . and probably weren't for years afterward. I understand in some breeds they weren't closed until the 50s - if even.

Every other breed of toy/small dog I have gathered historical information on (King Charles, Cavalier King Charles, Griffon Bruxellois, Pekingese, Shih Tzu, Tibetan breeds, Chihuahua, Chinese Crested . . . ) admits to or has recorded information of occasional crossbreeding through that era as type was being determined, standards were being written, and the fancy was just beginning to expand . . . and I read that most of the working breeds do as well.

As closed stud books were a new phenomena and the norm for breeders throughout history was to occasionally cross breed, I'd have trouble swallowing the idea that this one breed was different than all the rest.

Without exact recorded information, of course, there will always be differences of opinion, arguments and speculation. For those of us that like history, its a shame more was not recorded and tracked or written down for this breed during the late 1800s - early 1900s period when the erect eared type, along with solid coloring, was first registered and started to become popular . . . or maybe that info has just yet to have been found. France, Italy and Belgium might have more info.

This Phalene site also mentions the pioneer breeders of the erect eared type, and their realization - through breedings - that the erect ear was dominant over dropped. The "at least" semi dominance of erect ears was also noted during the Boxer x Corgi back-cross project breedings, when one pup came out with completely erect ears.

http://www.dutch-stafford.com/Site_...Phalene/Epagneul Nain Continental-Phalene.htm

http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES1.html

BTW, I absolutely LOVE that photo with the bouncy Papillon in back . . . a little bit of Tiggr in that one.

SOB


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## FaithFurMom09

i dont know anything about paps,
i thought it was interesting speaking of genes though, when i read about Labs, that all 3 colors are created equal if that makes sense. I forget how it goes, but apparently yellow is hard to make and choc is hard to find. Dont quote me though. The guy we got Hope from claimed she was a lab Mix, but I found out its only because of her White and her Tail. Shes not "pure" by the normal standards because she has a tail that curls up and white on her paws and chest rather than a small amount on her chest. I never would of know any of this. I think its cool to learn about all this stuff.


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## Pai

spanielorbust said:


> Every other breed of toy/small dog I have gathered historical information on (King Charles, Cavalier King Charles, Griffon Bruxellois, Pekingese, Shih Tzu, Tibetan breeds, Chihuahua, Chinese Crested . . . ) admits to or has recorded information of occasional crossbreeding through that era as type was being determined, standards were being written, and the fancy was just beginning to expand . . .


Yerp, that's my theory of how the 'hairy hairless' Chinese Cresteds were created. There are many rumors that some early dogs were crossed in the 1950s with other toy breeds to set size/improve hair type (and also because hairless dogs were so rare that outcrossing was pretty much required). But that also weakened the hairless gene expression in some dogs. In breeds like the Xolo that have the exact same hairless gene, you never see the same wide variety in body hair amounts that you do in Cresteds. The only explanation that makes sense is that Cresteds have some 'extra genes' floating around. Anyway, when the University of Bern study on them is concluded, we'll find out for sure, I hope. =)

Before the invention of Kennel Clubs, most breeders selectively outcrossed when needed; there wasn't the same stigma attached to it like there is today. If a dog LOOKED like a certain breed and _acted_ like that breed, people accepted that it _was_ that breed, even if it had some mixing further back in the family tree. 
Personally, I think allowing responsible, planned outcrosses could do a lot of good for some breeds with limited gene pools and lots of health problems. The closed registry system is a very old-fashioned concept, really, and it's been around for less than 150 years out of the thousands of years that humans have been breeding dogs.


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## Keechak

Laur I think I may have been the one that told you about the red pap painting in an AKC book. I have the book, I'll scan the image for you and post it.

Here it is. sorry about the lines running thru it. my scanner had a hard time with the weight of the book. I think it is quite a beautiful painting.


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## spanielorbust

Pai, if you follow that study, would you please post about the results? I'd be very interested. 

I love Tucker's "Dog with a Ball" painting. It always has reminded me a bit of one of my favorites, Bernard De Gempt's "A Toy Spaniel" from 1853.










This is also an interesting evolutionary tree of dog breeds chart which shows breed relationships. I found it when looking for information from a Retrieverman blog where he commented that the results of mitochondrial DNA analysis show Chihuahuas are most related to European toy dogs. 

http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2008/12/05/a-crazy-theory-on-chihuhua-origins/










_"The biologists have also found that when one looks at a relationship tree of modern and ancient dog breeds, there is surprising structure to it, and the structure mimics the classifications of dogs by breeders into herding dogs, retrievers, sight hounds, small terriers and others.

"We found there is a surprising genetic structure that accords with functional classifications — suggesting that new breeds are developed from crosses within specific breed groups that share particular traits," Wayne said. "If they want a new sight hound, they tend to cross sight hounds with each other, and the same with herding dogs and retrieving dogs. That may not seem so surprising, but we had no reason to think beforehand that these groups would be strongly genealogical.

*"There are some notable exceptions, such as 'toy dogs.' In this grouping, there are many different kinds of lineages represented, including traces of herding dogs and retrievers.* When it comes to miniaturizing a dog, breeders start with a larger breed and cross that with a miniature dog to make a dwarfed breed on a new genetic background, causing the mixing of various lineages. It's a mix-and-match approach for some of these breed groupings. But in other cases, new breeds have been based on combinations of breeds that have specific traits."​_
Note the many colors in the toy dog group, which show the connection to DNA traces of the larger dog groups that contributed. Pekingese and Shih Tzu are the only ones "black" and, I understand, are considered the most ancient of the toy breeds (many rarer breeds have yet to be included). I'd love a bit better of an explanation of this chart, but so far, this is what we have.

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/dogs-likely-originated-in-the-155101.aspx

SOB


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## Pai

Yeah, the modern apple-head Chihuahua is not the same as the 'traditional' Mexican Chihuahua. I read an interesting series of blog posts that theorizes that the original (deer-head) Chihuahua was more related to tiny coated Xolos than anything else. Ida Garrett was one of the breed founders of the AKC Chihuahua, and she is responsible for the modern form. She also had some influence on Chinese Cresteds before the 1950s, though there really aren't any clear records of what she did with them.

There is a 1952 book on Chihuahua development and origin that is thought to be mostly the work of Ms. Garrett, that was published by another man. It's fairly rare, though I'd like to get it someday. It may not be 100% honest, of course, since many breeds have fanciful myths about their creation that have no basis in reality. =P

Some of the very early Cresteds had suspiciously Chihuahua-like features, which is why a possible past link is such an interesting subject for me.


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## Laurelin

Keechak is that the one? I have that pic but no 

I've been trying to collect pics. 

I don't doubt there have been at least something else added in there it's just I'm not sure it's pom or not. The theories- random mutation (unlikely), chihuahua- I saw this one debunked but now that they're proving chis are a newer breed from Europe i've been reconsidering. Then there's the spitz theory but it points to poms and possibly volpino italiano. I think the spitz theory is more likely than chihuahua just based on breed characterstics. They are much more pom in temperament than chi. But I would not be surprised if I found out they had several other somethings in them. They are not all that spaniel in either temperament or looks (which is a good thing for me lol). The only thing for me is that the solid colored dogs (both the black one you posted and the reds I posted) look less spitz and more spaniel like to me than a modern pap.

I actually referenced that wheel (actually that same retreiver man article) the other day when reading about chihuahuas. Some people still insist they come from foxes which is a very out there theory indeed. I think as we become more efficient with dna testing we'll find out lots more of the 'truths' about these grandiose breed origin stories are false. (Like the chihuahua one or the pharaoh hounds, etc)


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## Crantastic

I'll assume you've seen this site, Laurelin, but if not, there are a lot of paintings of the little spaniels. I haven't gone through and looked at every one. I don't know how accurate the writeup there is, but I found this part neat:



> From Titian through Mignard and his contemporaries, all of the Contintenal Toy Spaniels had drooping ears. The ears were set high, although far enough apart to show the curve of the skull. They were of medium size, hanging, as one writer has expressed it "lightly". There may, however, have been an occasional dog with leathers of sufficient strength for the ears to stand erect. Two 18th Century paintings suggest this.


Not sure which two they're referring to.


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## Laurelin

Crantastic said:


> I'll assume you've seen this site, Laurelin, but if not, there are a lot of paintings of the little spaniels. I haven't gone through and looked at every one. I don't know how accurate the writeup there is, but I found this part neat:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure which two they're referring to.


Yes I've looked through that site but not all the pics yet. This is one of the paintings they are referring to, whcih i believe is the oldest erect eared spaniel painted.

http://www.papillonclub.org/History/PhotoGallery-OldMasters-B-StillLife.html


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## Laurelin

Here's the other:

http://www.papillonclub.org/History/PhotoGallery-OldMasters-D-YoungGirl.html


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## Dustie

How about a red coat Papillon?

Hi guys, new member here. This afternoon, after 4:00, I get to pick up our new forever dog, Winslow, at the Fayetteville Animal Shelter in Arkansas. Poor fellow will be feeling a bit under the weather since he will have just been nutered, but hopefully he'll not blame me for it.

He's a beautiful little Papillon mix, definitely a mix as he's about 11 pounds, stands probably around 11 - 12 inches at the shoulders, color is totally wrong, and legs are sturdy, not dainty fine boned like other Paps I've seen.

Having said all that, there's no doubt he's probably 2\3 Pappion, at least not to me. And although the color is all wrong, I absolutely love his beautiful mostly red coat.

I just wish I knew what else he was mixed with to give him the all red and tan coat and the other small differences, but it's the red coat that's throwing me. It's about the same color red as an actual red papillon, so I can't help but think it came from him, but for some reason covered most the body. No white anywhere though but there is some light tan on his chest as you can see in the picture. It's mystery. Any guesses what he may be mixed with anyone?

I can't wait to bring him home. In the meantime, I'm surfing the net learning about Papillons and this thread caught my eye because of the almost solid color of Winslow. Glad I found this site...I have a feeling I'll be reading and posting often. I've much to learn!


----------



## spanielorbust

Hi Dustie. What a gorgeous boy you have. Hope you don't mind a long explanation. 

I first want to explain that coat coloring is determined on a dog in a polygenic way - the contribution of lots of alleles on lots of loci goes toward it, and how they combine in one pup in a litter can be very different than how they combine in another. Keep in mind each pup takes just one allele from each parent to pair on each gene locus (the parents each offer two to the pups, and one is not passed on, while the other is.)

The red (red shaded sable or possibly a hound tri) coat very well probably came from the Papillon contribution to Dustie. Usually, in much of the Papillon coat, this coloring is virtually "colored over" with white. The white coloring, though, is recessive in nature and requires a recessive "white spotting" allele from each parent to match together on the white spotting locus for this to happen. Just one solid colored parent that doesn't "carry" a recessive white spotting allele, and ALL the pups in a litter will be solid colored. On the S locus, they will all have to have the S/s allele pair (the capital letter representing the dominant solid coloring).

Papillons have been bred so that this dominant allele does not any longer exist in the breed and therefore the breeders know solid pups won't crop up. (They are all s/s and therefore can only pass on an "s")

Here is a shaded red sable Papillon that would look similar to Dustie if you took off the white.










This is a hound tri Papillon, also similar. If Dustie's coat, on the back and through most of the body, is solid black without any sable banding on the hairs, then he is probably a hound tri. Deeply shaded sables can look very similar.










This wonderful site provides a Papillon coat color tour that is very informative.

http://www.letitpapillons.com/info/colors/index.htm

Papillons are often mixed with Pomeranians and Chihuahuas. As Dustie's ears are erect, and he has a long coat (incomplelely recessive to smooth), I would suspect it is a long coated Chihuahua or Pomeranian that contributed the solid color allele somewhere in his heritage.

From the photo it is hard to tell, but does Dustie have a black nose and black in his coat, or are the darker colors chocolate brown? If he is chocolate, that is very, very uncommon in Papillons.


----------



## Laurelin

KelliCZ said:


> Ineresting the second all white pap looks like an albino with the pink nose and blue eyes - is albinism common in paps?


It's really uncommon, but that dog is an albino.


----------



## Laurelin

Honestly looking at Winslow I see more Chihuahua than papillon, if there is papillon at all. A few reasons for this.

One- he is solid colored. That happens in papillon mixes but never in pure papillons. Solid seems to be more common than pied in chihuahuas.

Two- he looks like a red dilute (liver in papillons). This happens very rarely in papillons but is fairly common in chihuahuas. Dilute is recessive so if he has a papillon parent, they would have to carry the recessive too. As I said before this gene is exceedingly rare in paps but not impossible. Just thinking about the likelihood, though, I would bet that came from a different breed.

There was a dog in the shelter that I worked at about a year ago I had a hard time telling if it was chihuahua or papillon. She was about right in between looks wise but was liver pigmented so I bet she was chi.

Also looking at body type, he seems stockier, shorter in the leg than your normal pap and something about his coat texture says chi to me but I can't place my finger on it...

The only thing saying pap to me is the ears but large, fringed ears show up in chihuahuas too. This is a chi, not a papillon for example:










This too:










His face is more moderate than most chis too but I see a lot of variation in chi faces.

Either way chi or papillon mix though, he's precious! I bet you're excited bringing him home! 



spanielorbust said:


> This wonderful site provides a Papillon coat color tour that is very informative.
> 
> http://www.letitpapillons.com/info/colors/index.htm


I know that dog! He's owned by a friend and is called Merlin. (I know totally irrelevant) He was the first hound tri I ever met, and now I have my own little hound girl. My other 4 are red sables.

Here's our crew:










LR- Rose (shaded red sable), Summer (clear red sable), Beau (shaded red), Mia (hound tricolor), and Bernard (shaded red)


----------



## lucidity

Dustie, he definitely looks more Chihuahua than papillon to me.. Colouring is the #1 factor, and then #2, the shape of his face/muzzle.


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## HyperFerret

Laurelin said:


> Occasionally they do come in solid WHITE on occasion (extreme mismark).
> 
> Here shows the range of amount of white they tend to have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And an explanation of the white spotting genes:
> 
> http://www.letitpapillons.com/info/colors/genetics.htm


The all white pap in the 2nd pic looks like a baby Luckdragon to me.  Cute.


----------



## LaurenE

Dusty--what a GORGEOUS boy! I'm jealous . I agree with the above posters that he looks very chi-like. I really see it in his face. You'll have to post more pics when you get him home!


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## spanielorbust

Just wanted to mention that sometimes it is very hard to tell long coated Chihuahuas and Papillons apart. It is even more difficult to determine, in a mix, which breed contributed the most, especially if both might have. Where I live, Papillons have been much more common than Chihuahuas thanks to some over-producing commercial breeders marketting them here from about 20 years ago forward. We therefore also see more Pap mixes than Chi mixes. In the Southern USA I understand Chihuahuas are more common. We are starting to see more here as well thanks to media influence.

For example the photo of the long coated Chihuahua above very much reminded me of the first Papillon I ever knew well (and she was a registered purebred). She was the sweetest girl ever. For those interested in color, she was not black with white, but was a darkly shaded and heavily black masked black sable with white. You can see some of that sabling in this photo on her shoulder.

This is her.










This is the long coated Chihuahua from above.










Here are another two registered apple headed Papillons that I know/knew well. The black masked clear sable with white was the son/great grandson (linebred) of a Can Champion, and the black/white with one button ear is the daughter of an AM/Can Champion.



















SOB


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## Dustie

Oh my gosh, I am so in love with this little guy from the shelter! He's sound asleep right here beside me on the couch. 1st night in his new home and everything was terrific. He's exhausted now, and rightfully so. A week in a municipal dog shelter culminating with getting nutered would wipe anyone out!

Thank you all so much for your help. Reading all that you guys said and finally getting to spend some quality time with Winslow. I think you're all right. It's the Chi in this fellow that I didn't see right off that gives him his coloring. 

The reason why I didn't think Chihuahua is because, two week ago, one of the dogs of my heart, Caffee, passed over the Rainbow bridge. Caffee was an AKC registered long haird Chihuahua.

Having just spent 11 years with Caffee, I'd say that this fellow of mine came out with more Pap then Chi, but it's wonderful to see the Chi in there. When I went to the shelter, I looked at all the dogs and saw nothing that fit what I was looking for. I had left the dog room and was heading back to my car when I had a strong feeling to go back and look one more time.

That's when I found Winslow. I don't know how I missed him the first time through. I like to think it was Caffee leading me back into that room, knowing that this was just the dog for us. I know it's silly, but seeing some of Caffee in Winslow, makes me want to believe just that.

Here's a picture of Caffee I took and made into clipart.










Winslow's eyes are normal vs Caffee's chi proturding eyes. Win's ears are twice the size as Caffee's, and are mostly Phalene. I discovered that he really only holds them erect when he's listening or interested in something, as in the picture, and then they are definitely the butterfly ears. 

Although the picture makes Win's legs look shorter, they really are long. At least a third longer then Caffee's, and Caffee was no small chihuahua. Windslow's long legs are a stand out feature, making him actually a bit taller then our 14 year old minature poodle. Win also has a beautiful easy to comb silky coat. No undercoat to speak of. Caffee was always hard to groom because of a thick under coat which matted easily. Caffee shed all the time, Winslow, knock on wood, hardly sheds at all. 

The color is Chi, no doubt, now that I have him here with me. If I glance at him, I see Caffee sleeping there, minus the white and with a little more red. The tail is much like Caffees, only it's held higher then Caffee held his, and is more course like Caffee's was. And I see Chi in the expressions of the fact from time to time, and at other times I don't. It's quite odd.

I do see Chi in Win's nature though, but then I'm not familar with the Pap nature yet.

I'm just so looking forward to a long life with this new beautiful family member of ours. My husband, who wasn't sure he wanted to get another dog after Caffee, is also in love with this little boy, thank goodness. 

Thanks again everyone. I'll be here reading and learning, and trying to find out more about the Pap side of my Papchi Boy!

Dustie


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## Laurelin

I would LOVE to see more pictures of your boy once he's settled in! He is stunning. I'm very sorry to hear about your loss, I know how hard it is to lose a heart dog. 

SOB, those all scream papillon to me in head shape. Mine are all fairly domed head but when comparing a show quality chi to a show quality papillon there's quite a bit of difference to me. The out of standard versions of both breeds can sometimes be a bit iffy. I have seen a few dogs around that I would have a hard time IDing. One chihuahua that goes to the park here I truly thought was a papillon. I'm still not convinced it's really a chihuahua.

I would also say in the vast vast majority of the US chis outnumber paps by a landslide. You never see papillons or papillon mixes around here in rescues.

Mia is fairly long and snipey in the nose










Whereas Beau's got a big old fat head.


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## yappypappymom

I'm w/ Laurlin in this too Dustie...Condolences on Caffee..I too have lost a heart dog, &..man, it can be quite a thing to recover from, BUT, as Laur pointed out in another thread, having another dog to help "fill the void" may be the best kind of "medicine" at times too!
I look forward to seeing pics of your new Windslow too!!  Welcome to DF's also!


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## ozzy29

One of the sites I was reading said that solid colored paps are disqualified. This probably accounts for breeders trying to get solids out of their line and trying to breed only two or tri colored animals. It did mention white and solids 
(plural), so there may be the odd puppy that is born black or have very little white.


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## yappypappymom

As far as the research that I have done, you are most likely to find a pap with 85% more white than anything. A "solid" pap is almost non-existent..if you DO find pics of one, I would LOVE to see it though!! I have seen some beautiful "saddle" paps in which their coat colorings are quite heavy, BUT, the white is still pronounced. Do you have any direct links? I would LOVE to see these "solid" paps myself


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## ozzy29

The site I was on did not have any pictures they merely mentioned solid 'colors'.
I did find a picture of one that almost pure black.


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## Laurelin

In my research I don't think solids existed up past the 1920s. But I would be really interested in a pic of a near solid and the source it came from if you have one.


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## ozzy29

I will hunt around and see if I can find it again...Sorry I did not think to bookmark it


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## Dustie

Today was not the day for picture taking, although Winslow definitely made a BIG IMPRESSION his first full day with us. I know this post is a little long, but believe me, it's cut down from where I first had it.

Winslow's Impression was brought on by his getting very sick. I was so scared. In just a short time this dog had me wrapped around his paw and owns my heart. The day started fine, but by late afternoon Winslow was acting so much like my little Chi that had to be put to sleep not long ago due to liver failure.

I was so reminded of the first verse of the _The Power of the Dog _by Ruyard Kipling:

There is sorrow enough in the natural way 
From men and women to fill our day; 
And when we are certain of sorrow in store, 
Why do we always arrange for more? 
Brothers and Sisters, I bid you beware 
Of giving your heart to a dog to tear. 

My heart was still torn by my Caffee girl. I didn't even want to think about something happening to Winslow. When my husband caught me crying, he gathered up my things and put me and Winslow in the car and we headed 30 miles to the Emergency Animal Hospital. Vets are closed around here on weekends so you have to either wait, or be prepared to pay 80.00 for an office visit at the Emergency clinic, and that doesn't count diagnosing , treatment or any prescribed medications. 

We ended up paying the clinic nearly as much as we would have paid had we bought a registered purebred and so my husband is now calling him our little purebred mutt. He's teasing of course. As far as we both are concerned, it was WORTH EVERY PENNY!. I just couldn't stand getting my heart torn again so soon. 

After testing they diagnosed an infection and put fluids into him, and put him on antibiotics and anti-nausea medication. They vet feels confident that this little fellow will be back to full health inside of a week. I sure hope he's right.

I'll try get more pictures over the next few days...


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## ozzy29

Am sorry to hear he is so sick, sounds as though he is going to be fine though, I hope he gets well soon and we can see more pics.


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## RaeganW

spanielorbust said:


> ...
> This is also an interesting evolutionary tree of dog breeds chart which shows breed relationships. I found it when looking for information from a Retrieverman blog where he commented that the results of mitochondrial DNA analysis show Chihuahuas are most related to European toy dogs.
> 
> http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2008/12/05/a-crazy-theory-on-chihuhua-origins/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"The biologists have also found that when one looks at a relationship tree of modern and ancient dog breeds, there is surprising structure to it, and the structure mimics the classifications of dogs by breeders into herding dogs, retrievers, sight hounds, small terriers and others.
> 
> "We found there is a surprising genetic structure that accords with functional classifications — suggesting that new breeds are developed from crosses within specific breed groups that share particular traits," Wayne said. "If they want a new sight hound, they tend to cross sight hounds with each other, and the same with herding dogs and retrieving dogs. That may not seem so surprising, but we had no reason to think beforehand that these groups would be strongly genealogical.
> 
> *"There are some notable exceptions, such as 'toy dogs.' In this grouping, there are many different kinds of lineages represented, including traces of herding dogs and retrievers.* When it comes to miniaturizing a dog, breeders start with a larger breed and cross that with a miniature dog to make a dwarfed breed on a new genetic background, causing the mixing of various lineages. It's a mix-and-match approach for some of these breed groupings. But in other cases, new breeds have been based on combinations of breeds that have specific traits."​_
> Note the many colors in the toy dog group, which show the connection to DNA traces of the larger dog groups that contributed. Pekingese and Shih Tzu are the only ones "black" and, I understand, are considered the most ancient of the toy breeds (many rarer breeds have yet to be included). I'd love a bit better of an explanation of this chart, but so far, this is what we have.
> 
> http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/dogs-likely-originated-in-the-155101.aspx
> 
> SOB


I found the same chart on an article at Science Daily. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100317144640.htm

I think the Biology department at my school gets _Nature_; I might be able to get the research.


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## BrittanyG

> http://www.letitpapillons.com/info/colors/index.htm


I've been stuck here for 1/2 an hour now, I'm falling even further in love... ARRRRGGGG lol.


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## book21007

misty073 said:


> So I was out walking at the park this morning with the girls, and this lady stops to let her dog have a sniff of my dog. It was pure black so not knowing what type of dog, I asked her and she said it was a Papillon? She said they were rare in pure black. I have never seen that before...are they rare or mixed?


Hey guys! I am a newbie and just wanted to post to this link. My husband and I just adopted a new girl (Molly) from this older couple who could not take care of her anymore. They said she was a Papillon, but I knew she should be colored similiar to my parti poms. She is not, and it doesn't matter she is a sweetie but I thought I would share her pics and find out what you think. Maybe Chion?


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## Laurelin

book21007 said:


> Hey guys! I am a newbie and just wanted to post to this link. My husband and I just adopted a new girl (Molly) from this older couple who could not take care of her anymore. They said she was a Papillon, but I knew she should be colored similiar to my parti poms. She is not, and it doesn't matter she is a sweetie but I thought I would share her pics and find out what you think. Maybe Chion?


Welcome to the forum! Your dog is just gorgeous! 

What I see personally in your dog is chihuahua primarily. There is something a little bit more elegant (best word I can come up with) and slender though... Maybe papillon mixed but I am not sure. I really don't see much papillon.


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## book21007

Laurelin said:


> Welcome to the forum! Your dog is just gorgeous!
> 
> What I see personally in your dog is chihuahua primarily. There is something a little bit more elegant (best word I can come up with) and slender though... Maybe papillon mixed but I am not sure. I really don't see much papillon.


Thanks for your input that is what I think as well, as I said it doesn't matter to me I just find it interesting to determine! She is so strange looking she is cute. I think primarily chi as well..but she doesn't have that personality. She is a lovey dovey, much like our poms although a little more standoffish (but not rude) which should be expected because she is new to our family. Much more slender though as you said, almost breakable in appearance and feel. Supposedly the elder couple raised them as pap's which I find funny, because so obviously not. Just wondering if anyone see's any.


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## Laurelin

I mean she well could be part papillon, part chi. Whatever she is, she's gorgeous!

Did you see any of their other dogs by any chance? (I'm curious)


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## book21007

I didn't, my mother in law picked her up for us because we lived about 1 1/2 away. She is a doll.


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## ChastityDoris

Hi, I have just stumbled across this site while looking for information on black papillons. Earlier this year our family welcomed two beautiful, lovable little papillons. (Two years after our wee chihuahua passed away - it took us a while to be ready to add to the family.) We brought two papillons, who are half brother and sister (same dad, different mums). Delilah is a brown/white papillon, with a little bit of Chinese Powder Puff (her Mum was 1/4). Benson is pure black except for a wee bit of white under his chin, and a tiny bit of white on the tips of his black paws. He is also a phalene. Benson's Mum has the same markings except for a bit more white in her tail. Benson's Dad was brown/white (sadly he passed away a few weeks ago). Both the Mum and Dad were pure breds theoretically. I do want to stress we brought our babies as pets only (no papers etc), and the issue of meeting criteria, standards etc is of no significance. We got our babies from an extremely loving home where we got to know the Mum and Dad before choosing babies. We visited regularly throughout the pregnancy and as the puppies grew so they would get to know us. 
Anyway, I have been doing a bit of research and struggled to find info on black papillons. I am really just curious! If anyone would like to see a photo of Benson I will post one and would be most interested in feedback.
Our decision to get papillons was the best ever, and the decision to get two even better. Both our babies are adorable, happy, active members of our household - it has brought so much pleasure and happiness into our family! Thanks.


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## Laurelin

I would be interested in seeing a picture. I wonder if another sire didn't get to the dam though. As far as I can research solid colored papillons haven't existed for near a hundred years. 

If both parents were particolored then all the puppies should have been as well. All reading I've done has said that the solid allele has been bred out of the breed completely.


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## ChastityDoris

I will try to add a pic from when he was a little puppy - a more recent one I will add when I get home from work. All the other puppies in the litter were particoloured except for Benson - he is the only one whose ears didnt go up either. Also there were no other male dogs in the house - his Mum was specifically mated with his Dad.


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## KBLover

Laurelin said:


>



This dog looks mad.


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## yappypappymom

I found a pic online awhile back of a pretty darn near solid black pap - I saved it to my puter even. (I'd say about 96-97% black), but, the file is a .bmp format. Anyone know what I could do to get it into a .jpg file or what so I could post it?


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## KBLover

yappypappymom said:


> I found a pic online awhile back of a pretty darn near solid black pap - I saved it to my puter even. (I'd say about 96-97% black), but, the file is a .bmp format. Anyone know what I could do to get it into a .jpg file or what so I could post it?


Open it in a pic editor, then save it as a .jpg

You can get a freeware program call Paint.Net to do it (it's not a bad program, especially for freeware/open source).


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## yappypappymom

KBLover said:


> Open it in a pic editor, then save it as a .jpg
> 
> You can get a freeware program call Paint.Net to do it (it's not a bad program, especially for freeware/open source).


Thanks KB ...I was being lazy not wanting to upload(HOW LAZY does that make me?? LOL), but, the file went straight to jpg...eazy peazy!

Here is the guy I found about 4 mo's or so ago. (I am pretty sure he was on petfinder)...looks purty dang close to a pap if you ask me!


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## Crantastic

I wouldn't be surprised if he's a pap mix, but he doesn't look pure. His head looks more chihuahua to me. The ears are smaller, too, more long-haired-chi-looking.

There are just so many papillon breeders out there that I can't believe we wouldn't have seen at least one picture of a proven pure solid pap if they actually still existed.


----------



## Laurelin

ChastityDoris said:


> I will try to add a pic from when he was a little puppy - a more recent one I will add when I get home from work. All the other puppies in the litter were particoloured except for Benson - he is the only one whose ears didnt go up either. Also there were no other male dogs in the house - his Mum was specifically mated with his Dad.


It's really hard to tell from that pic because he is so young. All puppies pretty much look the same at that age.



yappypappymom said:


> Thanks KB ...I was being lazy not wanting to upload(HOW LAZY does that make me?? LOL), but, the file went straight to jpg...eazy peazy!
> 
> Here is the guy I found about 4 mo's or so ago. (I am pretty sure he was on petfinder)...looks purty dang close to a pap if you ask me!


He looks mixed to me honestly. A LOT of papillon x pomeranians or papillon x chihuahuas come out looking like solid colored papillons with just some subtle differences. His head looks rather chi to me too and something about his coat texture looks off. It also reminds me more of Chi type of coat than papillon.

It's one of those things that is just genetically impossible with the modern papillon genepool without outcrossing. You can't cross a piebald x piebald and get a completely solid dog. The entire papillon population now is piebald. At the most you'll end up with a dog that looks Irish spotted but really is just a heavily colored piebald. Like so:


----------



## spanielorbust

ChastityDoris said:


> Hi, I have just stumbled across this site while looking for information on black papillons. Earlier this year our family welcomed two beautiful, lovable little papillons. (Two years after our wee chihuahua passed away - it took us a while to be ready to add to the family.) We brought two papillons, who are half brother and sister (same dad, different mums). Delilah is a brown/white papillon, *with a little bit of Chinese Powder Puff (her Mum was 1/4*). Benson is pure black except for a wee bit of white under his chin, and a tiny bit of white on the tips of his black paws. He is also a phalene. *Benson's Mum has the same markings except for a bit more white in her tail*. Benson's Dad was brown/white (sadly he passed away a few weeks ago). Both the Mum and Dad were pure breds theoretically. I do want to stress we brought our babies as pets only (no papers etc), and the issue of meeting criteria, standards etc is of no significance. We got our babies from an extremely loving home where we got to know the Mum and Dad before choosing babies. We visited regularly throughout the pregnancy and as the puppies grew so they would get to know us.
> Anyway, I have been doing a bit of research and struggled to find info on black papillons. I am really just curious! If anyone would like to see a photo of Benson I will post one and would be most interested in feedback.
> Our decision to get papillons was the best ever, and the decision to get two even better. Both our babies are adorable, happy, active members of our household - it has brought so much pleasure and happiness into our family! Thanks.



Congrats on your new pups! It sounds like they are in a great home and much loved.

I'm just trying to sort through the information here in regards to their coloring and heritage. I take it Delilah and Benson are the names of your new boy and girl that are half sibs through their mom? Their mom was almost fully colored (solid) like Benson. 

You mention that the mom of both had a Chinese Powder Puff grandparent . . . but then that the parents were purebreds theoretically? That part I don't get. Is it by percentage pure that you are considering her pure? Could you explain?

If I understand properly the heritage, the solid coloring probably came in through the Chinese Powder Puff grandparent of Delilah and Benson's mom. It is a dominant trait and as long as one parent has the solid coloring (or almost) it will continue on down through any solid colored pups born - no matter how many generations of piebald (parti) Papillons are bred forward through and no matter how high the Papillon percentage gets.

If you asked the breeder you'd most likely find out that Benson's mom also had a solid colored parent herself - the one that would have had the Chinese Powder Puff as a parent. By odds half of the pups Benson's mom will have - even when she is bred to a parti colored Papillon - will be solid in color, like Benson. Some will be solid black, and it is also probable she can produce solid sable as well (that does depend on the colors of her parents).



ChastityDoris said:


> I will try to add a pic from when he was a little puppy - a more recent one I will add when I get home from work. All the other puppies in the litter were particoloured except for Benson - he is the only one whose ears didnt go up either. Also there were no other male dogs in the house - his Mum was specifically mated with his Dad.


He is a beautiful little pup. I'd love to see more photos of both of yours. I happen to be a fan of the dropped or tipped ear, and still a fan of Papillons, which makes the Phalene look my favorite.

SOB


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## Laurelin

Oh yes, I missed the fact that there was crested in there. Would also explain why the hair on the muzzle looks to be long instead of short on your puppy too.


----------



## ChastityDoris

Hi - it is only my little girl Delilah whose Mum has Chinese Powder Puff in her. Benson's Mum and Dad are supposed to be purebred papillons. I an post a pic of Benson's Mum and Dad if you are interested, and will post one of Benson a bit later when my daughter emails one to me. I'm a bit tense today - tomorrow Delilah goes to the vet to be speyed and microchipped, Benson just for microchipping. (We have decided to keep him whole for now.) Delilah especially will not be very happy and I am not looking forward to leaving her at the vets. Thanks everyone for your feedback and comments - it is so interesting!


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## ChastityDoris

Here are photos of Benson's Mum (Pipi, black) and Dad (Chico, brown and black). Sorry these are the only ones I have.


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## Crantastic

Neither one looks pure pap to me. The dad actually looks like a pap/pom mix -- that coat looks much too fuzzy/like a double coat to be pure papillon (paps have a single coat that's more silky). The ears are interesting; he has that black fringing on the ear tips like my Crystal has, but no real fringe to speak of on the rest of his ears (which also look a bit small for papillon ears). Look at the difference between him and Crystal in both ears and coat (and also muzzle length/shape):










The mom is very likely part chihuahua and also appears to have a double coat. Her coat is also fairly short, especially the hair on her tail. I'd prefer a pic of her standing, but from that lying down pic, it appears that her legs are shorter than pap legs. Also, like I said earlier, I just couldn't believe that any solid-colored dog is a pure papillon without loads of proof. They just haven't existed for a long, long time.


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## ChastityDoris

Thanks for the comments - I am learning a lot! The photo of Chico (the Dad) was taken when he was about 16 months old, and his ear fringe I think had been trimmed (lives in the country and I think managed to get a bit grubby/matted one day!) Sadly Chico passed away a few weeks ago. I dont have any other photos of the Mum sorry. Your Crystal is gorgeous!
I do love seeing all the photos of papillons people post.


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## Laurelin

They both actually look rather chi x papillon to me. The dad's head shape, ear set, and coat type looks more chihuahua than papillon to me. I might have actually thought he was a pure longhaired chi. Mom's head type and ears are much more papillon but her coat is relatively short and her legs do look very short in that picture. 

Papillon mixes are quite popular now. I see lots of puppies in pet stores that are labelled as papillons but look very mixed to me. It might be possible that these people really do think their dogs are pure papillons because they bought them as such. But in reality they're mixed with another small purebred (chi is my vote). Do you know where the parents came from? That might be very telling. 

Your pups are gorgeous! How old are they now? Mia was soooo sad when I got her spayed but within a few days was back to her normal self. I always feel bad dropping them off to get something done to them, but I know it's for the best.


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## Crantastic

Yeah, I have seen "papillons" for sale in the pet store here, too, but they looked half chi to me, and there was a (tiny) disclaimer on the dog cages saying that the puppies sold there are not guaranteed purebred and have no papers. I'm sure the people who bought those pups just tell their friends the dogs are papillons.


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## ChastityDoris

Here are photos of my babies - Benson (black) and Delilah (white/brown)


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## lucidity

The dam looks like she might have some Cocker Spaniel (maybe English Cocker) in her or something.. her muzzle is neither Chi-ish, Chinese Crested-ish, nor Papillon-ish..


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## jillweese

I have a papillion puppy which I believe will look alot like this but his coloring is sable and white, he is out of a litter of four, two were mostly white with the classic head markings and him and his sister had more color, the sister is about half and half and he is mostly brown with a white color and chest and feet, I have both of the parents the father weighs 9.5 lbs and the mother weights 6.0 lbs. she is about half and half also and they are both sable's, Is the solid color unusual? I have papers on the dad, but not the mom but I was told her parents were full-blooded and that I could paper her if needed. also the girl half and half has fluffier fur than the other puppies and her ears are going to droop in the phalene style the other three are erect. So my question is, Is the almost solid color of the male desireable or not??


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## Crantastic

> Color
> Always parti-color or white with patches of any color(s). On the head, color(s) other than white must cover both ears, back and front, and extend without interruption from the ears over both eyes. A clearly defined white blaze and noseband are preferred to a solidly marked head. Symmetry of facial markings is desirable. The size, shape, placement, and presence or absence of patches of color on the body are without importance. Among the colors there is no preference, provided nose, eye rims and lips are well pigmented black.
> 
> The following faults shall be severely penalized - Color other than white not covering both ears, back and front, or not extending from the ears over both eyes. A slight extension of the white collar onto the base of the ears, or a few white hairs interspersed among the color, shall not be penalized, provided the butterfly appearance is not sacrificed. Disqualifications - An all white dog or a dog with no white.


From here.


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## spanielorbust

jillweese said:


> I have a papillion puppy which I believe will look alot like this but his coloring is sable and white, he is out of a litter of four, two were mostly white with the classic head markings and him and his sister had more color, the sister is about half and half and he is mostly brown with a white color and chest and feet, I have both of the parents the father weighs 9.5 lbs and the mother weights 6.0 lbs. she is about half and half also and they are both sable's, Is the solid color unusual? I have papers on the dad, but not the mom but I was told her parents were full-blooded and that I could paper her if needed. also the girl half and half has fluffier fur than the other puppies and her ears are going to droop in the phalene style the other three are erect. So my question is, Is the almost solid color of the male desireable or not??


Oh this has me so curious.

In regards to the color being desirable, it is not if the person the pup goes to cares about the Papillon color by standard. I happen to prefer almost solid colored dogs in most breeds, and especially like white feet and chests on an almost solid dog (what I call spashes of white), so it would depend on the person.

Now, what I am curious about, from the point of view of someone who enjoys color genetics, is the amount of white that is described on each of the parents of this pup, as compared to the amount of white on the pup. You mention the mom is about half and half also. What parts of her are white? This is actually kind of important to know because the mom and pup sound like they might be 'Irish Spotted" and the genetics of 'Irish Spotting' are theorized, but not fully understood. 

The other possibility is that you are describing a heavily blanketted piebald mom, and pup as well. This is often seen in the Cavalier breed.

I'd love if you could post photos of the parents and their young'uns. If he, indeed, has dramatically more colored areas than both of his parents, that would be very interesting from a genetics and heredity point of view.

To clarify a bit, we all know what a fully colored dog looks like - think Labrador Retriever. Even fully colored dogs, though, can have a small splash of white on paws etc. Full or solid coloring is the dominant allele (albeit imcompletely) on the locus that controls white spotted areas on dogs.

An Irish Spotted dog often has the kind of pattern shown on the two Shelties on the left:









Piebald Spotting is supposed to be the recessive to Irish Spotting. It is the white spotting pattern shown on that right side Sheltie above, and that most Papillons have, by standard:









However, piebald spotting can produce an almost fully blanketted dog as well, like this Cavalier:









It would be remarkable if two piebald patterned parents threw an Irish Spotted pup, which is why this interests me.

SOB


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## Laurelin

I don't think it's possible for peibald to throw irish spotting. I have seen some that almost look irish spotted but they are really just heavily blanketed.


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## spanielorbust

It shouldn't be Laurelin . . . that is why I am curious and would like to see photos, as by Jilweese's description it sounds like the male pup is Irish spotted . . . .

SOB


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## Black Pap

Hello, I was searching for picures of our "Eddie"

Please forgive me for a late post, but here is our dog...


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## Chance`s Mom

Hi everyone. My first post as a new member. I recently adopted a rescue dog and was trying to find out if he was a Pap and did a google search and found this forum. Have done a lot of reaserching on the Pap breed and I honestly think he is one. He has all the markings they say he is suppose to have and I think he is minimal tri-color Pap. Here is his picture from when he was in the shelter.


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## Laurelin

Looks like a papillon. I think he's just black and white though.


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## Chance`s Mom

Thank you as that`s what I thought he was. Can`t tell by the picture but he does have a small splash of reddish tan below the black on his right eye and a some of the same color on his back by the base of his tail.


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## stellarz

can anyone tell me if he is a black pappilon??


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## Laurelin

I can't see your picture. If he is solid black in color, he isn't a purebred papillon. He may be a mix, however. They do come in black and white though. But no solid black.


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## PatriciafromCO

do you think it could be like the GSD's ?? they were sable and the other colors just popped up or out  in the breed and became popular ?


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## Crantastic

A solid black papillon is just not genetically possible anymore.


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## Laurelin

PatriciafromCO said:


> do you think it could be like the GSD's ?? they were sable and the other colors just popped up or out  in the breed and became popular ?


Solid black used to happen but genetically cannot anymore. solid colors were bred out of the breed.


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## stellarz

stellarz said:


> can anyone tell me if he is a black pappilon??


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## stellarz

hi ive jus worked out how to send pics sorry


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## Laurelin

He looks like a small spaniel type mix of some sort to me (could very well have papillon or any number of other small spaniels in the mix).


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## PatriciafromCO

Laurelin said:


> Solid black used to happen but genetically cannot anymore. solid colors were bred out of the breed.


Thanks Laurelin,, I was thinking about the breed going from the solid colors to the party colors,, that the party colors just happened and became more popular


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## RedGermanPinscher

keechak said:


> laur i think i may have been the one that told you about the red pap painting in an akc book. I have the book, i'll scan the image for you and post it.
> 
> Here it is. Sorry about the lines running thru it. My scanner had a hard time with the weight of the book. I think it is quite a beautiful painting.


love it!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MFisher362

Black Pap said:


> Hello, I was searching for picures of our "Eddie"
> 
> Please forgive me for a late post, but here is our dog...
> View attachment 29992
> View attachment 29993
> View attachment 29994
> View attachment 29995
> View attachment 29996


I have a black Papillion mix (he's got white tips on his paws, a tiny white tip on his tail, and a small white blaze on his chest) - he's mixed with Pomeranian but looks a lot like your little guy. This is Skipper, with my basset mix, Lucy.


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## Hally

This is my sweet pup, Moose. He used to be solidly black, but he’s an old guy now and he’s got a beard 😂 He’s graying a bit in his old age, but when I first met him he was fully black. I’ve always thought he was a papillon, can any pap experts tell if he is or not? I know this forum has been silent for years, but I’m curious. Is he some super rare anomaly? Or is he a mix? He’s probably somewhere around 16 years old by now. He was a rescue when my sister got him, and eventually she gave him to me. I’m preparing my heart for his eventual death, I don’t even want to think about it. But I know he’s getting old. He’s a toughie, but I’ve gotta cherish the time I have left with him. He’s been through a lot and he means the world to me.


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## DaySleepers

This post is a decade old and many of the members participating are no longer active here, so I'm closing this thread to further replies. I do encourage you to start a new thread sharing these pictures and our currently active members will then be able to give you their thoughts on him! Other than he's adorable, that's a given.


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