# I have an aggressive dog - so what?



## K9Chaos (Jun 27, 2014)

Hi Everyone,

So this "vent" has been building for awhile now. I feel like I should be on some anonymous support group "Hello my name is Bea and I have an aggressive dog." When did the attitude of "dogs must like everyone and everything to be good dogs" start to happen? 

I guess "aggression" isn't really the right term for Kay's temperament. I mean she is perfectly fine walking down the street - she certainly isn't going to go out of her way to attack someone. 

However she does not want to be petted by you - no really no matter how much you love dogs. No really she isn't going to like you no matter how much you baby talk her or offer her manky wheat filled dog biscuits out of your pocket (Which she won't take from you). 

Come into my house or yard uninvited? there is a strong possibility that she will bite you. We are aware of her dislike for strangers which is why our gates are locked, we have beware of dog signs on them, and when company is over I crate her. She loves her crate and it not at all upset by having to be in it. She is also not left in the backyard if we are not home - none of our dogs are. 

I do not think any of this makes her a *bad* dog though. I am really tired of people asking "Why do you have a dog like that?" or "Didn't you socialize her as a puppy?" Yeah she was very well socialized but that doesn't always mean a dog is going to grow up to love everyone. She is also very well trained and has her CGC certificate - but she still hates you if you're not a family member. 

A friend found out about my pregnancy today and her first reaction was "Well you are finally going to get rid of that dangerous dog, right?" and was shocked when I told her no. Kay is the dog I am least concerned about - she is incredibly sensible in her reactions to things. She is one of those think before reacting type of dogs. 

A dog does not have to love everything in order to be a good dog - whose with me on this? 

Sorry this got so long! I started typing and it just kept going.

Bea


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah mine have the reaction that the first line of defense is Offense- so there is alot of barking and growling and chuffing, always. Once in their perview though (if we are home ) they settle. Berner Max wont go anywhere near you and indeed do his deep bark from a distance, Layla will pounce on you and see how you react, but honestly, she lOVES being petted and will just melt. She just makes you work for it first. Oscar, well he will jump on you a few times and then lose interest.

Easygoing and people loving they arent. Its not their nature.
Thats just their personalities.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

totally agree with ya!!! Going between working dog people/training and AKC type people / classes was comical for the drastic change.. I often thought (To myself) being in the AKC type classes was like being in a really bad mommy group.... it seems like it should be so simple but some how people just can't grasp it...


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## K9Chaos (Jun 27, 2014)

Patricia - I have been meaning to ask but keep forgetting! is that a Caucasian in your Avatar? I love them so very much.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sounds a lot like roxie honestly but people dont freak out about her because shes small.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Yes Arka is a Caucasian...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Of the dogs I have now? I have one who is happy to take treats and attention from complete strangers and that's Bug (Molly is a baby and does not count). None of the rest are aggressive (Well, Thud may be if someone came in HERE unannounced, but not out and about) but they don't' really want anything to do with people they don't know. Most dogs are not golden retrievers and I wish people would get that through their thick skulls.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I hear you. Squash is my one who is the kind of dog everyone thinks of as a "good dog" - generally likes and gets along with people and other dogs, although he's getting a little selective about dogs as he gets older. Pip, on the other hand, is neutral about other dogs and does not care for strange people one bit. Unfortunately most people's reactions follow a fairly predictable sequence of events where first their brain tells them that their entire sense of self-worth and identity hinges on making him like them, then they try to do so and fail, and finally they get disgusted that such an awful, awful creature such as a dog who just wants strangers to leave him alone exists. And Maisy loves all people but is unpredictably reactive with strange dogs, which is always popular. So, yea, I'm with you.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Sigh. My vet warned me about my puppy growing up to be aggressive if I don't socialize him. I'm thinking, good, exactly the reason why I bought a fila lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

To be honest, I sort of create these situations, I think? I mean a lot of it's the dogs individual personalities and I DO socialize, have people feed them treats and pet them and so on. But I mostly train with an eye toward them politely ignoring people.

Sue me.


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## K9Chaos (Jun 27, 2014)

I am really glad to know that I am not the only one here that doesn't care if my dogs love everyone. Kay behaves in public even if she doesn't like people and that is good enough for me. Honestly I am pretty introverted and am not comfortable around strangers either.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't want my dogs to love everyone. Polite but aloof is my ideal -- the kind of dog who will let a stranger pat it but won't really approach people or care about them, and the kind that will ignore other dogs unless directly approached. My last dog was like that. Of my current two, Crystal is fine with people but puts on quite a show when she sees another dog. Cas is fine with everything unless it tries to touch him. He will bite if he feels threatened. I manage it (strangers can't pat him) and it's not ideal, but he's small enough that he's easy to manage. 

I've socialized Casper all his life (including puppy classes and playdates at other people's houses), and I've always taken him many places. I think it's mostly genetic with him. He's not a fearful dog in any other aspect -- loud noises, big animals, busy places, none of that bothers him. He just doesn't want people touching him or other dogs getting in his face.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't like what Dove does, she is actually reactive/aggressive towards people. She is afraid. Remus is just indifferent towards adults (he can be a bit reactive towards men in hats/hoodies but it is a protective thing, he only does it with me) and I don't care. I actually prefer that my dogs are indifferent toward strangers than like Freyja who goes crazy trying to meet and love every person she sees. We have been working on this since she was 8weeks old, she is 6months now and she still goes crazy jumping and flinging herself towards people when she sees them and then she will jump on people if I can't get her into a down first. She is just a social butterfly, totally not my thing in a dog (oddly she is a GSD x husky). I was hoping to use her as a PSD but probably won't be able to because she is so crazy for people. 

It isn't that most of my other dogs are aggressive, they just don't really care about other people. Remus can be pet by most people, he even genuinely likes children and loves to play with them, but for the most part he will avoid contact with people he doesn't know. Blue is actually afraid of strange adults but will approach children if they get down to her level. Duke is reserved with strangers, he actively dislikes some men but you can never predict which ones. He is tolerant with women but not outgoing. He does like children. I wound up with a bunch of dogs that like children more than adults. As far as other dogs, Duke is selective, Freyja loves dogs, Remus loves dogs (but is leash reactive) and Blue is scared to death of other dogs. Dove is reactive to everything outside of the 4 of us and the 4 dogs that live here. She chases the cat and she fights a good bit with Remus. She really is the only one I have reservations about.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

My dog loves my family/friends that she sees on a regular basis. She could CARE LESS about anyone else until she gets to know them on HER terms. She will go up and sniff someone, and will move her head away if they try to pet her. I've come to terms with it. She's a herding breed, and sometimes they are just like that with strangers. Yes, I socialized the crap out of her. She has been this way since the day I met her. Her littermates walked sideways wiggling at me like goofballs, while she just said "Hi" and done. She is an amazing dog in so many way. I don't really care if she's indifferent/wary toward people she doesn't know. It'd be a little different if she were flat out aggressive.


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## jt322 (Jul 10, 2014)

Dogs have different personalities and that is great because people all have different personalities, wants, needs, etc. so I believe there is a dog for everyone. Well that is if they are suited to be a dog owner. I do not think there is any "right" dog personality. That being said I would never want an aggressive dog, ever, at all. Not that I am a social butterfly nor do I live in highly populated area where dog must be somewhat social just to do basic functions. What bothers me about aggression is I know I will probably end up saying goodbye too soon. Dog bites someone they are the one that suffers. Some places they are automatically euthanized no trial or evaluation or holding period. So I personally chose a dog that does not show any aggression and avoid/discourage against aggression of any type for the dogs safety, not other people or because it bothers me. It will never happen to me people always say until it does. Seen way too many dogs put down for aggression and most of the time breaking the owners heart when they are.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Yeah, whatever. People are ignorant. My dog doesn't like you? Guess what, I might not like you either. Sure, we might be civil to each other, but that doesn't mean we're ever going to be best friends or whatnot. And I am all for management - there are plenty of behaviors that can be successfully managed with a need to "fix" it. My only concern though is that management will fail at least once in 100% of situations. The only difference is what is the level of damage when it _does_ fail. In some cases if management fails, there won't ever be any physical damage - e.g. a reactive dog barks at another dog across the street while on a walk. But sometimes the damage is catastrophic.

Just to be clear, I in no way, OP am saying that your dog is dangerous, and I am not even saying that people making snide remarks like that is appropriate. But I do see where they may be coming from, and how such remarks are probably made mainly out of fear (even if the people making them don't recognize it).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think... a lot of people fail to realize there is a world of difference between 'aggressive' and 'doesn't like you' with dogs.

I believe even the friendliest dog in the planet has the capacity to do serious damage to a person or other dog in exactly the right set of circumstances. I don't think, actually, that dogs who are less enthusiastic about people are any more likely to have that happen. Not when it's all on it's own and taken outside a bunch of other issues that tie into 'aggressive' (human, dog, or other) behavior in dogs.

Thud is a GSD/LGD mix. He's got protective and territorial behavior hardwired into his genes. Kylie can be fearful and shy, though less lately. The circumstances where either might bite exist and are in addition to circumstances other dogs might bite - or so I'd image. 

Bug is the friendliest dog of the bunch. She ADORES everyone. She's bitten and drawn blood from me and my husband. Not aggression, but bite inhibition is *NOT* something she gets very well and her tendency to get hyper excited and grab with her mouth has gotten us once or twice. Not usually a problem (she grabs things more than people, but still). 

Jack is utterly, utterly, the LEAST friendly dog in the bunch as far as interest in others, but has a very stable temperament. He's never lifted a lip, growled, or given a second look back to anyone doing anything to him even in pain or having painful things done to him at the vet. 

I'm not sure saying 'I have an aggressive dog, so what' is necessarily the right attitude because real aggression would worry me a ton. However, "I have a dog who isn't friendly" is very much a 'SO?' to me.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I'm not sure saying 'I have an aggressive dog, so what' is necessarily the right attitude because real aggression would worry me a ton. However, "I have a dog who isn't friendly" is very much a 'SO?' to me.


This. Aloof is great, reserved is great, cautious is fine. Even standoffish. Aggressive toward humans, not so much. Personally I think a dog that instigates aggression (other than in extraordinary circumstances), or reacts to commonplace situations with aggression (whether fear-aggression or overt aggression) is a timebomb, and that timebomb needs to be defused one way or another ASAP. Over its lifetime a dog will from time to time escape handler control.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Hmmmm 2 of mine bark and patrol and sound off- one wont get with in 10 ft of you, the other likes to jump (its puppyish and also confidence, more than aggression). 1 of mine is aggressive - by that I mean charging jumping up on you and barking in your face. She doesnt bite - we spent years working on that and yeah its a huge liability. But its not a training thing- I mean its her nature. I can mediate it, but thats who she is. 
(and No I dont mean I let her loose to do all those things, but given freedom, that is what she would do, if you are dog savvy and tell her to settle, and pet her, she will trust you more than likely, and let you pet her)...

I guess the spirit of this thread is that.
I do get tired of peoples expectation that your dog can go to obedience classes and .... be a different dog?

She is a giant schnauzer and very much a giant terrier- she is scrappy and loud and yeah well aggressive. (Not in the DA sense of my old dog that loved loved to fight, but it is aggression all the same)...


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## SagePaw (Jun 26, 2014)

I agree. My dog has similar issues but is very well trained.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

parus said:


> This. Aloof is great, reserved is great, cautious is fine. Even standoffish. Aggressive toward humans, not so much. Personally I think a dog that instigates aggression (other than in extraordinary circumstances), or reacts to commonplace situations with aggression (whether fear-aggression or overt aggression) is a timebomb, and that timebomb needs to be defused one way or another ASAP. Over its lifetime a dog will from time to time escape handler control.


This is my issue with Dove, she has significant fear aggression and while I can manage her it is an issue. Right now she has not ever offered to bite a human, her reaction is to bark and run which is a relatively safe reaction. She has been manhandled at the vet, at the groomer, and nothing. I do not think she would bite a person. She will snap at other dogs though. It worries me more not because I think she will hurt another dog (she is 7lbs, even when she scraps with other small dogs they don't really get into it it is all bravado and noise) I worry she will start a fight with a big dog and get eaten. It would take one bite and shake, that's it. 

Duke and Remus might bite in extreme situations, as an act of protecting their humans, but Duke can be pressed very far with no reaction what so ever.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

BernerMax said:


> I guess the spirit of this thread is that.
> I do get tired of peoples expectation that your dog can go to obedience classes and .... be a different dog?
> 
> She is a giant schnauzer and very much a giant terrier- she is scrappy and loud and yeah well aggressive. (Not in the DA sense of my old dog that loved loved to fight, but it is aggression all the same)...


I hear you. My GS is a food guarder and has a tendency to guard me as well. He's sufficiently trained and socialized (and mellow and middle-aged) at this point that I don't consider it a danger, but I kind of think of it like being a recovering alcoholic - he's fine, but he doesn't get to take any steps down the slippery slope, and I make a point to do maintenance of the proper behaviors, because the underlying predilection is always going to be there. I love him for what he is, and guardy is what he's SUPPOSED to be, but because he's a big powerful dog and we live in a world of dumb people, I can't be all "so what" about it, you know what I mean?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parus said:


> I hear you. My GS is a food guarder and has a tendency to guard me as well. He's sufficiently trained and socialized (and mellow and middle-aged) at this point that I don't consider it a danger, but I kind of think of it like being a recovering alcoholic - he's fine, but he doesn't get to take any steps down the slippery slope, and I make a point to do maintenance of the proper behaviors, because the underlying predilection is always going to be there. I love him for what he is, and guardy is what he's SUPPOSED to be, but because he's a big powerful dog and we live in a world of dumb people, I can't be all "so what" about it, you know what I mean?


I think most of this thread is just the idea that if your dog isn't a love-everybody type that they're defective. Different levels of management, awareness, training and so forth are going to be required for different dogs (true across the board, really), but that doesn't mean the dog's broken. If Thud were still, at nearly 2, not showing signs of being wary and suspicious I would think something had gone awry somewhere. He's not bad. I watch him, I pay attention, I manage and am observant. He's certainly trained. But he's not 'wrong', or defective, or flawed - he's a freaking German Shepherd/Live Stock Guardian mix. HE ISN"T GOING TO BE INDISCRIMINATELY FRIENDLY. 

And back to the OP, his attitude at a stranger approaching is not indicative of his level of safety with family members, if you know what I mean? I don't worry about him at anymore with people he knows and lives with than I would any other large and powerful dog (which is plenty). I certainly wouldn't worry that he'd eat a baby.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I think it also depends on where you live. I have had aggressive dogs before and have managed to handle them quite well. People just did not tend to walk pass my house. Those that did pass by on a bike or a walker is a good 25 feet away from my dogs. I live out in the country and handling such a dog is not that big of a deal. Managing such a dog in the city takes more precautions for it to work. When we did have visitors the dog was put away with the visitor given instructions not to go near the dog. 

I tend to get the social misfits because I live out away from the crowds of the city. It does not bother me that not all my dogs are social butterflies. At times I was here by myself with my kids and I loved the fact that I did own and have such dogs. It made me feel safer that I had such dogs. I did not try to change them. so what! My kids also felt safer knowing they had such dogs keeping them safe.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

parus said:


> I hear you. My GS is a food guarder and has a tendency to guard me as well. He's sufficiently trained and socialized (and mellow and middle-aged) at this point that I don't consider it a danger, but I kind of think of it like being a recovering alcoholic - he's fine, but he doesn't get to take any steps down the slippery slope, and I make a point to do maintenance of the proper behaviors, because the underlying predilection is always going to be there. I love him for what he is, and guardy is what he's SUPPOSED to be, but because he's a big powerful dog and we live in a world of dumb people, I can't be all "so what" about it, you know what I mean?



Hmmmm not that I am casual about it, but I feel like people really take it personally - the dog is what it is, and its not a reflection on me, personally or them. 
My dog is actually pretty enthusiastic and rambunctious, gives doggie kisses and cuddles, but- also can be this, yeah like a recovering alcoholic kinda thing.

and yeah what CPTjack and Luvmy pets said (we are mostly in the country)....


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## K9Chaos (Jun 27, 2014)

I really appreciate every ones replies! It has made me feel really good to know there are other people out there who do not judge a dog by how friendly it is to random people. We have three dogs all with very different personalities and I think they are all good dogs - just different from one another. I think it is important to not view your dog with rose coloured glasses. Acknowledge any limitations or personality quirks that could be a problem. That in mind I think Kay is the perfect dog - personality quirks included. 

I think a lot of dog owners judge other dog owners because they don't necessarily want the same thing in a dog as the other person does. Not everyone has the same wants or needs in a dog as everyone else and we should all just be happy that there are so many different types of dogs out there.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

Mia could care less about strangers. Te only people she lets walk in and out of my house is us,her family. She sees my neighbor daily, Okays frisbee with her, lets her pet her but my neighbor can not just walk over and come in to let them out. So if I know I'm going to gone long I take her to my cousins. The other 3 are okay with it(Bentley puts on a show until he realizes who it is). I can easily take her in public and she is 100% fine. She is part ACD it's in her genes to be a little Leary of strangers. I didn't expect her to be te "OMG a person they must pet me NOW." I tell people "she is shy" or I say "she is in training" and they normally back off. 

Bentley is a different story. When he went through his fear stage it was a daily struggle. Since he is a lab people just assumed he was friendly. Yea he wasn't very friendly then!! Now? He loves kids, the elderly and people with disabilities. But if your a young adult? He could seriously care less if you petted him or not. I don't know how he distinguishes between everyone but he does. People in wheel chairs or have disabilities that have them in some kind of support or can't communicate right freak most dogs out from what I've read(and in my expierance) but Bentley? He is like " I must say hi and I must make a new friend." He also seems to be able to tell if people are afraid and he is really calm around them. So when people see this they are shocked when I say he doesn't really care for young adults. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

BernerMax said:


> Hmmmm not that I am casual about it, but I feel like people really take it personally - the dog is what it is, and its not a reflection on me, personally or them.


Those people can stuff it 

There's that whole subset of people who are like ANIMALS LOVE ME and then take it personally when an animal doesn't love them (must be something wrong with the animal, huh?). I guess we all have our quirks but that particular mindset is pretty nonsensical to me. Not every dog is a Golden Retriever!

My GS is actually hella friendly, almost annoyingly friendly, out in public. He loves attention and he loves going places. What he doesn't love is anyone or anything getting too close to his house, his people, or his food, lol.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I think it also depends on how the dog treats the family it lives with. I do not think I could have a dog that could not have been trusted around my kids. Not so much their friends, just my kids. I would put the dog in question away when the kid's friends were over.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Of my 4, Jack (minipoo) is like that. Once he knows you, he remembers and likes you, but if you are a stranger he has zero interest in you (which is how I want it to be, he used to be petrified of people). It's the idiot people who are all "Oh, dogs Loooove me!" and refuse to stop trying to reach out and pet him that I have a problem with. He's never going to like you if he doesn't know you. He's not mean, he just doesn't care to have strangers handle him. Is that so hard to understand?

And I am a huge dog lover as well, but unless the dog is initiating contact, I'm not going to touch your dog. Not even if I'm asked to pet an obviously petrified dog. Nope.
Polite but aloof as described above is perfectly fine.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Remaru said:


> This is my issue with Dove, she has significant fear aggression and while I can manage her it is an issue. Right now she has not ever offered to bite a human, her reaction is to bark and run which is a relatively safe reaction. She has been manhandled at the vet, at the groomer, and nothing. I do not think she would bite a person. She will snap at other dogs though. It worries me more not because I think she will hurt another dog (she is 7lbs, even when she scraps with other small dogs they don't really get into it it is all bravado and noise) I worry she will start a fight with a big dog and get eaten. It would take one bite and shake, that's it.
> 
> Duke and Remus might bite in extreme situations, as an act of protecting their humans, but Duke can be pressed very far with no reaction what so ever.


When I was little my mom's boyfriend had a very unsocialized, aggressive pitbull. He did exactly what you fear - a neighbor's dog came up to him, gave him a nip, and game over. I find the VAST majority of big dogs, even the stereotypical 'aggressive' breeds, are just fine around smaller dogs, and at worst will play too hard. Even in the instances I see where a smaller dog will get in a bigger dog's face and yap and nip, and the big dog doesn't want to play, the reaction is generally to ignore, or to growl and bark. 

In my humble opinion a dog should be socialized enough to handle a good deal of unwanted petting from strangers, tail pulls from children, and annoyances from other dogs, without going into bite mode. Whether or not a dog is stranger friendly is quite frankly irrelevant.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Nothing personal, but I don't have a lot of sympathy.
I have Labs . . . I'm on the forth generation of my own breeding . . . because, though I don't like shy dogs, I hate dog aggression, human aggression, or hard to manage reactivity. Or to put it differently, I like 'em bombproof. Labs do have their problems, and there are HA and DA Labs, but you can avoid the HA/DA/reactive by working within trusted lines.
If you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen. If you get a dog (breed or line within a breed) with known guardian tendencies or instability and the dog displays hostility toward your friends, don't be surprised if your friends complain. People don't like hostile greetings. 
Standing by your dog is the right thing to do. But if your dog acts in an unfriendly way to your friends and you realize this is hardwired and will likely continue despite efforts to socialize, it's better to isolate the dog from people not in the family. You bought into a problem. Suck it up. Don't blame people for not liking your dog if your dog makes it clear that it doesn't like them.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> In my humble opinion a dog should be socialized enough to handle a good deal of unwanted petting from strangers, tail pulls from children, and annoyances from other dogs, without going into bite mode.


My goodness, that's asking a lot of a dog. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to handle a "good deal" of unwanted touching without going into bite mode, and I don't expect my dogs to be better people than I am .


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Willowy said:


> My goodness, that's asking a lot of a dog. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to handle a "good deal" of unwanted touching without going into bite mode, and I don't expect my dogs to be better people than I am .


I expect dogs to be better than people because dogs ARE better than people 

But in all seriousness, the vast majority of dogs I have met are extremely tolerant. That's just anecdotal, so perhaps my experiences aren't representative of reality.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

pistos said:


> I expect dogs to be better than people because dogs ARE better than people
> 
> But in all seriousness, the vast majority of dogs I have met are extremely tolerant. That's just anecdotal, so perhaps my experiences aren't representative of reality.


I think this is the attitude that gets people bitten. In my experience, the majority of dogs have their breaking point. We don't know where a strange dog draws the line. I try to be very respectful of people's dogs, even if they say they are friendly. 

We are camping right now and people keep asking to pet the dogs. I let them pet Eren because he sucks that crap up. Loves it. I leave Merlin on his line. He doesn't enjoy interactions with strangers. He's not human aggressive per say (he is really only interested in me/my immediate family and friends) but he's a terrier. When he draws a line, he draws it pretty hard. I know he hates kids and doesn't like strangers and won't hesitate to nip if he thinks I'm being threatened. I try not to push him into situations where he is gonna feel uncomfortable and therefore less predictable. 

Dogs shouldn't have to put up with crap if they don't want it. If you repeatedly allow others to make your dog umcomfortable, you need to examine your actions. 

To everyone who had dogs that don't enjoy interactions with strangers, keep sound what you feel is best. Yes, some of it is socialization but a lot of it is personality. If your dog is lovely at home and isn't seeking out people to kick their butts on the street, then I see no issue.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> Yes, some of it is socialization but a lot of it is personality. If your dog is lovely at home and isn't seeking out people to kick their butts on the street, then I see no issue.


And the reason Kylie will, only now, sometimes approach people, let herself be pet and take treats is because I OVER socialized her and did not respect that this dog is not physical, does not enjoy being pet, and does not particularly like people. She went from aloof but friendly to AFRAID because I kept telling people to give her a treat and pet her. She started to refuse the treat because it just meant something horrible was going to happen. The horrible being getting pet.

She got confident and happy again when I stopped expecting her to put up with that crap just because she was a dog and cute and people expected it.

I do agree dogs shouldn't be of the sort to turn and snap if they are touched by a stranger, because a lot of people are IDIOTS who can't comprehend the idea that not every dog wants to be touched by them, but that doesn't mean the dog should have to. Just that the sad reality is that you can't control the idiot humans who don't get that dogs aren't public property and the dog will pay if there is a bite.

A stranger might get in a quick swipe if they come up behind me, but my dog doesn't have to tolerate a good deal of that nonsense because I'm not going to ask him/her/them to. I think they probably would, but I'm never going to ask it of them. I'm going to body-block, interfere, and if necessary yell for people to knock it off.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sandgrubber said:


> Nothing personal, but I don't have a lot of sympathy.
> I have Labs . . . I'm on the forth generation of my own breeding . . . because, though I don't like shy dogs, I hate dog aggression, human aggression, or hard to manage reactivity. Or to put it differently, I like 'em bombproof. Labs do have their problems, and there are HA and DA Labs, but you can avoid the HA/DA/reactive by working within trusted lines.
> If you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen. If you get a dog (breed or line within a breed) with known guardian tendencies or instability and the dog displays hostility toward your friends, don't be surprised if your friends complain. People don't like hostile greetings.
> Standing by your dog is the right thing to do. But if your dog acts in an unfriendly way to your friends and you realize this is hardwired and will likely continue despite efforts to socialize, it's better to isolate the dog from people not in the family. You bought into a problem. Suck it up. Don't blame people for not liking your dog if your dog makes it clear that it doesn't like them.


this is exactly the attitude when I tried to bring in a puppy to my vet clinic (ON LAB DAY) vet was a lab breeder... I opened the door which is glass and I asked the guy to move his lab from laying across the front door blocking it, and he just laughed when his lab raised his head growling blocking entrance at the poor new pups first experience going to the vet .. So I turned around getting the pup back to the vehicle and got my full grown 94lb GSD Darien out (the one who fits so well into this thread) I never stopped or slowed down as I came back across the parking lot to swing open the door. Never gave the man or the rest of the gigglers a chance to get up and move... When I opened that door letting Darien in and he went full blaze ballistic.. The man just tumbled over his himself and his dog scrambling to get out of the way..... along with everyone in the clinic now plastered up against the back wall holding their labs... How dare anyone think it is funny and ok to ruin a happy out going puppy .... It was still to this day one of my favorite days... Darien was an awesome dog but he was never going to be a lab..... lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sandgrubber said:


> Nothing personal, but I don't have a lot of sympathy.
> I have Labs . . . I'm on the forth generation of my own breeding . . . because, though I don't like shy dogs, I hate dog aggression, human aggression, or hard to manage reactivity. Or to put it differently, I like 'em bombproof. Labs do have their problems, and there are HA and DA Labs, but you can avoid the HA/DA/reactive by working within trusted lines.
> If you don't like the heat stay out of the kitchen. If you get a dog (breed or line within a breed) with known guardian tendencies or instability and the dog displays hostility toward your friends, don't be surprised if your friends complain. People don't like hostile greetings.
> Standing by your dog is the right thing to do. But if your dog acts in an unfriendly way to your friends and you realize this is hardwired and will likely continue despite efforts to socialize, it's better to isolate the dog from people not in the family. You bought into a problem. Suck it up. Don't blame people for not liking your dog if your dog makes it clear that it doesn't like them.



Yeah, well, don't blame me when your bomb proof, friendly, social lab results in me hating its guts, and its lack of dog manners results in other dogs hating it.

People don't all like the same thing. I hate over-enthusiastic, loves everybody dogs. So do my dogs. You keep it trained and out of my and my dogs space and face and we won't have a problem and you won't have reason to 'hate' my dogs, either (because they're also trained and not in your face or your dogs face). If you can't keep it from greeting everybody whether they want it or not that, keep it out of public. You bought into a problem. Suck it up and don't blame people for hating the dog who acts like a goofy, overly friendly, idiot with no understanding of personal space.

Yes, that was hostile, but seriously? A dog who is not a lab does not have incorrect temperament and is not 'wrong', a problem, or dangerous'. I HATE THAT PERSONALITY and so many stinking lab owners will claim it is 'correct' temperament, everything else is defective and suffer the delusion that the whole world likes and wants to interact with their 'friendly' (aka, from the perspective of someone who doesn't like labs at all, pushy, rude, demanding) dog. You can like whatever it is you like and I can like what I like. We can both train our dogs to behave reasonably and not impact other people. I can do it by nicely alerting people that my dogs don't want their attention and you can do it by keeping your dog to itself unless somebody expresses a desire to interact with your dog.

Being friendly doesn't mean untrained or aggressive? WELL NEITHER DOES BEING ALOOF, SHY, DISINTERESTED, STANDOFFISH, or any other trait that is anything besides loving everybody enthusiastically.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

While I am concerned about Dove and her reactions because she is fearful, I don't necessarily want over exuberant and outgoing dogs. Why is there something wrong with a dog that is not interested in being man handled by strangers? Guardian breeds exist for a reason and their personality is different than a lab or golden retriever. I don't want to own a lab, I purposefully have avoided adopting a lab or any mix of a lab for a reason. Those are not characteristics I desire at all in a dog. I think some people are confusing guardian tendencies and standoffishness with temperamental instability. Duke is bombproof, he has never, while healthy, done a thing that has given me pause. However he is not overtly friendly to strangers with the exception of children and even then he doesn't go out of his way to make friends he just accepts petting. He can be downright cold towards men he doesn't know and if you come to our home uninvited he will defend his home and children. He has also managed to tolerate anything my youngest son has thrown at him up to and including biting him (my son bit Duke, not the other way around) with quiet dignity because his world begins and ends with that child. His temperament is perfectly sound, he just isn't a lab.

ETA: CptJack covered it before I could and said the things I've wanted to say but didn't for fear of getting in trouble. I am so tired of hearing about how awesome labs are because they are the best dogs and so friendly and the perfect first dogs. I'm sorry but I don't like them and I get so tired of running into them when I'm out because they always charge up to me and my dogs. Being "friendly" doesn't mean you don't need to control your dog and I don't want pounced on by your 100lb dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I love this article.

Why does my herding dog hate labs?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Remaru said:


> I get so tired of running into them when I'm out because they always charge up to me and my dogs. Being "friendly" doesn't mean you don't need to control your dog and I don't want pounced on by your 100lb dog.


_Every_ single time I have had an issue with dog, it has been a lab. It has been a happy, wiggling, grinning, bouncing, pouncing, social, 'friendly', 'bomb proof' lab who just "loves everybody". They jump on people. They jump on the dogs. They lick me in the face, knock the kids over, climb and scratch and slobber all over everyone. And every time it has happened and one of my dogs has given a (no contact) correction or I've pushed the dogs off, the owner acted like I peed in their cheerios and slapped a baby. 

I see well behaved labs and retrievers. I still don't like their personality for me but they behave themselves in public, so I don't care. However, I would ten BILLION times prefer a dog ignoring that I exist than violently mauling me with 'love'. I am not a person with any desire to interact with strange dogs beyond perhaps a word or two. Keep. Your. Dog. Off. Me. I don't care if it's friendly. I don't care that it would never bite. I don't want it touching me, much less jumping, climbing, bouncing, scratching, to stick its tongue in my face.

And as an aside? I can take my dogs anywhere and not have them bat an eye or behave 'badly'. Doesn't mean they're going to be give friendly greetings and it's totally okay if people decide they don't like that. No one asked them to greet the dog anyway. If their ego can't take a strange dog falling all over itself in complete adoration of them it's their problem - or they can pet Bug, who will fall all over herself. Otherwise, I'm afraid they're just going to get a cold, blank stare or a dog subtly moving away.


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## kdawnk (Mar 26, 2014)

Sans has a fairly healthy fear of strangers. She really doesn't like it when strangers make eye contact or stare at her for extended amounts of time. If we walk by someone gardening, or sitting on their front porch chatting with their significant other or in anyway minding their own business she couldn't care less about them. But when they're standing on their grass like 4 feet away from us just staring at her, it makes her nervous, if they move towards her she will bark and hop and back away because they freak her out. But if I shake the person's hand and make them touch her once, she's done. She's like, _"Oh, human says this leery guy is alright. Cool then. I'm going to eat his pinecones."_

I wish people would treat dogs like people and not dogs sometimes. It's very rare that a person stares at you for the entire time you're walking by their house and their neighbours and then moves forward to touch you or talk to you when you get close. Yeah I'd be creeped out too.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

RabbleFox said:


> I think this is the attitude that gets people bitten. In my experience, the majority of dogs have their breaking point. We don't know where a strange dog draws the line. I try to be very respectful of people's dogs, even if they say they are friendly.
> 
> We are camping right now and people keep asking to pet the dogs. I let them pet Eren because he sucks that crap up. Loves it. I leave Merlin on his line. He doesn't enjoy interactions with strangers. He's not human aggressive per say (he is really only interested in me/my immediate family and friends) but he's a terrier. When he draws a line, he draws it pretty hard. I know he hates kids and doesn't like strangers and won't hesitate to nip if he thinks I'm being threatened. I try not to push him into situations where he is gonna feel uncomfortable and therefore less predictable.
> 
> ...


I think THAT is the attitude that gets people bitten. See what I did there?

Nice strawman. You beat it up pretty darn good, didn't you? You don't know anything about me and my dog, and what I allow others to do with my dog. Disagree with me, that's fine, but don't make it personal. The fact is we live in a world where most people don't know much about dogs, can't read their body language, and don't know how to interact with them. I don't like avoiding people, I have a social life, and I prefer my dog not bite some kid who did something stupid. Of course, if I had a dog who I was concerned about reacting, I would be more careful, but I would also seek help on how best to socialize him and make him more comfortable around those things.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

pistos said:


> I think THAT is the attitude that gets people bitten. See what I did there?
> 
> Nice strawman. You beat it up pretty darn good, didn't you? You don't know anything about me and my dog, and what I allow others to do with my dog. Disagree with me, that's fine, but don't make it personal. The fact is we live in a world where most people don't know much about dogs, can't read their body language, and don't know how to interact with them. I don't like avoiding people, I have a social life, and I prefer my dog not bite some kid who did something stupid. Of course, if I had a dog who I was concerned about reacting, I would be more careful, but I would also seek help on how best to socialize him and make him more comfortable around those things.



But... why is this one or the other?

I can take my dogs out -and do- without fear of them biting. I take them to agility classes, trials, trails, pet stores, outdoor cafes, parks, and crowded festivals and don't worry about it because the dogs focus is on ME and they really could care less about other people existing in the same space. What they don't do is greet people. I guess your original statement being 'should tolerate' means that if a kid walks up from behind in close quarters and pulls the dog's tail it's not going to bite - and I agree, if I had to worry about that it might limit the time I spent out in public, or the sort of places I took them and would work on their confidence and tolerance. But that doesn't mean I expect my dog to tolerate a good deal of that. A good deal of it implies it's something that you allow to continue, and what you expect and accept as normal interaction between dog and public. 

Would my dogs bite if they were _repeatedly_ grabbed at? Realistically maybe one of them. If cornered and unable to retreat, maybe even two of them. It doesn't matter, though, and is non limiting in my life because I *don't allow those situations to occur*. If someone asks to pet a dog, I give them Bug because she likes it. If they ask to pet a dog who won't enjoy it or doesn't seem interested today, or whatever, I just say no. If someone tries without my permission, they might get ONE touch in there, before I notice and tell the other person no, body block or get loud. Why do they have to take a good deal of it? Why am I allowing a good deal of it to occur? Why is the alternative to have no social life or take them nowhere? Why am I not advocating for my dog and why am I pandering to idiots? Why am I more concerned with a stranger being able to pet my dog than my dog's comfort?

Serious question, here: what am I missing? Am I reading your use of a good deal wrong/assuming incorrectly?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hehe, we had to put Willow (a Lab, of course ) away when we had guests over, because she would shove her toy in their crotch or LICK THEIR KNEES (I cannot express how much I dislike having my knees licked) or try to climb into their laps the entire time they were there. I guess if I have to put my dog away because he *doesn't* like guests I don't see much difference .


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

I think we're close to being on the same page, CptJack. From what you describe, I wouldn't have an issue with your dogs. My dog is also (usually) aloof/shy around other people. That doesn't bother me - in fact, I like that she's picky about who she likes. Let me tell an anecdote to better illustrate how I feel.

There's a standard poodle, Maize, who frequents the dog park a lot. Lucy and Maize often play. Other times Lucy really likes her personal space and will bark and nip at the air and bare her teeth when another dog gets too close. Maize will always back off, but when Lucy turns back and starts sniffing something, Maize will run up and nip at the back of her neck, and Lucy will go off on her again. It's so funny to me because it really looks like Maize is deliberately winding Lucy up and enjoys watching her lose it. I don't step in because I expect Lucy to handle herself without getting into a fight, and she has never disappointed me, or even give me a reason to think she would ever disappoint. I have no doubt that Lucy would never get into a real scrap unless she felt personally threatened.

Would I expect every dog to let a child repeatedly tug on its ears or tail and just sit there and take it? Of course not. I would expect the owner to be responsible and prevent those situations from occuring. I would also expect the parent to have the same responsibility. But we all know that's not always the case. I would expect, if a dog was in a situation like that and wasn't of the temperament to keep letting it happen, that it would snarl or growl or nip at the face, something to the effect of "get the hell off me", and not bite the child. 

Hopefully that clarifies.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

pistos said:


> I think we're close to being on the same page, CptJack. From what you describe, I wouldn't have an issue with your dogs. My dog is also (usually) aloof/shy around other people. That doesn't bother me - in fact, I like that she's picky about who she likes. Let me tell an anecdote to better illustrate how I feel.
> 
> There's a standard poodle, Maize, who frequents the dog park a lot. Lucy and Maize often play. Other times Lucy really likes her personal space and will bark and nip at the air and bare her teeth when another dog gets too close. Maize will always back off, but when Lucy turns back and starts sniffing something, Maize will run up and nip at the back of her neck, and Lucy will go off on her again. It's so funny to me because it really looks like Maize is deliberately winding Lucy up and enjoys watching her lose it. I don't step in because I expect Lucy to handle herself without getting into a fight, and she has never disappointed me, or even give me a reason to think she would ever disappoint. I have no doubt that Lucy would never get into a real scrap unless she felt personally threatened.
> 
> ...



Yeah, it does, and I do agree with that. I'd expect the dog to try to remove itself, warn, and only escalate if those warnings were completely ignored. I'd consider a dog who went straight to full on biting at what amounts to minor annoyance to probably be fairly unstable, to be honest.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I have a dog with a golden's love for all and sundry, and I do love that about him. But I don't expect every dog to be that way and I don't judge people for it, either. 

I'm sure this "not a golden = bad" thing started around the same time we decided dogs should act like stuffed animals and children can't be unsupervised for 30 seconds until they turn 25. :doh:


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

pistos said:


> I think THAT is the attitude that gets people bitten. See what I did there?
> 
> Nice strawman. You beat it up pretty darn good, didn't you? You don't know anything about me and my dog, and what I allow others to do with my dog. Disagree with me, that's fine, but don't make it personal. The fact is we live in a world where most people don't know much about dogs, can't read their body language, and don't know how to interact with them. I don't like avoiding people, I have a social life, and I prefer my dog not bite some kid who did something stupid. Of course, if I had a dog who I was concerned about reacting, I would be more careful, but I would also seek help on how best to socialize him and make him more comfortable around those things.


To clarify, I meant the you to be the general you. Not you you. Sorry. I did not mean to make it sound like a personal attack. I see no straw man and I'm pretty sure being polite with strange dogs keeps me from being bitten so.... 

Merlin can function perfectly well in public. But if a kid or stranger wants to pet him, I say no. *shrug* He doesn't like it so I don't subject him to it. Does he tolerate it? Yep. But I don't push things in him because he isn't afraid to use his teeth. He gives adequate warning but kids never know the signs and adults straight up ignore them. 

Merlin has been to dog shows, pet friendly stores, hiking, training classes, camping, etc. he has only bitten (nipped, no skin broken) once and that was on me for not putting him away. He's a good dog. Just doesn't like the public in his space if he can help it.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> But if your dog acts in an unfriendly way to your friends and you realize this is hardwired and will likely continue despite efforts to socialize, it's better to isolate the dog from people not in the family. You bought into a problem. Suck it up. Don't blame people for not liking your dog if your dog makes it clear that it doesn't like them.



who said I care if my dogs is friendly to people not in my family? Its not a big issue for us. we are not social butteflies and dont expect the dog to be-- 
We arent the ones complaining over here. 
I put her away when I have people coming over, and she is great with our little girl, and in fact keeps tabs on her - and us- when we go hiking....
I have a schnauzer- and knew I wasnt getting a lab. If I wanted a lab I would have gotten one.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Casper hates strangers, but that doesn't stop me from being social. I take him lots of places; I just don't let strangers pat him unless he seems interested in meeting them (which he sometimes does). We've been to Woofstock (huge dog festival) and klee kai meetups and on-leash group walks (with 30-50 people and other dogs) with no issues. When I have friends over, if Casper doesn't know/like them I just put him in his crate with a peanut butter Kong and he's perfectly fine.

I don't like the stereotypical lab temperament. I'm glad that the people who want a dog like that can have one; I'm happy that these dogs exist. They're just not for me. If I could clone my previous dog and know that he'd have the same temperament -- quiet, watchful, aloof, yet confident and non-snappy -- I would do it in a heartbeat.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Some of my dogs like to go for car rides, some do not. The ones who do not like to go, I leave them at home. The ones who like to go is often shotgun in the car. I do not force the issue. Some of my dogs like to be social while others do not want to be the social butterfly. I do not force the issue. If it mattered to me I would only get dogs who tend to be social ones. I would stay away from dogs that are described on the AKC website as being cautious with strangers if this was a big deal breaker with me. Often times I end up with non social dogs that I make work in this household. The other option for these dogs would have been the pink stuff and a needle. To me not a big deal and why force the issue.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Some of my dogs like to go for car rides, some do not. The ones who do not like to go, I leave them at home. The ones who like to go is often shotgun in the car. I do not force the issue. Some of my dogs like to be social while others do not want to be the social butterfly. I do not force the issue. If it mattered to me I would only get dogs who tend to be social ones. I would stay away from dogs that are described on the AKC website as being cautious with strangers if this was a big deal breaker with me. Often times I end up with non social dogs that I make work in this household. The other option for these dogs would have been the pink stuff and a needle. To me not a big deal and why force the issue.


Its not just about socialbility! Layla loves going with me- she is my deputy in chief- she is up for all and everything- but its that scrappy terrier temprament- like in a jolly little Yorkie- but bigger- she barks and yaps and likes to put her mouth on things- very face- forward! Not the wallflower! If you act odd and nervous and weird she will guard you as being suspicious, if you are confident and relaxed its all good. She takes you in her stride.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Its not just about socialbility! Layla loves going with me- she is my deputy in chief- she is up for all and everything- but its that scrappy terrier temprament- like in a jolly little Yorkie- but bigger- she barks and yaps and likes to put her mouth on things- very face- forward! Not the wallflower! If you act odd and nervous and weird she will guard you as being suspicious, if you are confident and relaxed its all good. She takes you in her stride.


 my post was not about socialbility but about forcing the issue. Just like your Layla. You are not forcing her to be a dog she is not. You know your dog and do not force her to welcome everyone in her world the same. You are a good dog owner and know the type of dog you have. You have learned to live with it and accept the type of personality Layla has. In my world, I know some of my dogs are not the life of the party and I have accepted those dogs as they are. I am lucky if I am going to an event which requires a dog to be social I will take one of the dogs that are social. I would not force a non social loving dog to an event and set it up to fail. To me it is no big deal, I have plenty of dogs to choose from for any event.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> my post was not about socialbility but about forcing the issue. Just like your Layla. You are not forcing her to be a dog she is not. You know your dog and do not force her to welcome everyone in her world the same. You are a good dog owner and know the type of dog you have. You have learned to live with it and accept the type of personality Layla has. In my world, I know some of my dogs are not the life of the party and I have accepted those dogs as they are. I am lucky if I am going to an event which requires a dog to be social I will take one of the dogs that are social. I would not force a non social loving dog to an event and set it up to fail. To me it is no big deal, I have plenty of dogs to choose from for any event.


Ok thanks for the clarification! Luvmi pets sorry if I was touchy (I get tired of people telling me why do I put up with her, I love her for the dog she is!).. its been a long day...


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Ok thanks for the clarification! Luvmi pets sorry if I was touchy (I get tired of people telling me why do I put up with her, I love her for the dog she is!).. its been a long day...


Not to worry we all have had days like that. I own a Chihuahua for at least the first week he was in my house, I had to wear leather gloves in order to touch him. I was called crazy and such for taking on such a dog. These days I can at least pet the dog without gloves on. Maybe it was too much for him in the city but out here he has learned to exist. He will snap at strangers so I just do not take him to stores and events. No big deal for me. He seems happy and was not given the pink juice and a needle. His past owner is happy the dog is still alive. He is content living with dogs and I just do not force the issue he is not the type of dog to be a social butterfly. I myself just had to learn to say no to owners who ended up with these type of dogs and have a problem when they do not have a social butterfly. The owners keep putting the dog into situations where the dog fails because the owners think all dogs need to be a dog park kind of dog. Dogs may be social creatures but that does not mean social to strangers and other dogs.. It could just mean social to their own pack.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

the first step in helping an aggressive dog is to realize you have an aggressive dog. i think management
can work when you have an aggressive dog. your dog being aggressive doesn't mean it's going to be aggressive
towards the future baby.

when i was young my parents owned an apartment building and they had a man-eater, people hater dog.
the dog would seriously bite anyone except our family and the people that lived in the apartment. the dog
use to walk the hallways. the tenants would let the dog in their apartments. in the basement of the building 
my father build the dog a pen that could hold a bull. my father installed this heavy duty door that led to the
basement. if any of the tenants had guess or there was any workmen in the building the dog was put in the
pen.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

you can have a dog from the best breeder, trained by the best trainer's, lives in the best enviromrent, only the best
of the best, etc. if the dog doesn't take to all of the best then you could end up with an aggressive dog. i think with
some dogs it doesn't matter what you do they're going to be aggressive.



pistos said:


> In my humble opinion a dog should be socialized enough to handle a good deal of unwanted petting from strangers, tail pulls from children, and annoyances from other dogs, without going into bite mode. Whether or not a dog is stranger friendly is quite frankly irrelevant.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

i don't think that's asking a lot of a dog but i think some dogs can't do it.



pistos said:


> In my humble opinion a dog should be socialized enough to handle a good deal of unwanted petting from strangers, tail pulls from children, and annoyances from other dogs, without going into bite mode. Whether or not a dog is stranger friendly is quite frankly irrelevant.





Willowy said:


> >>>>> My goodness, that's asking a lot of a dog.<<<<<
> 
> I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to handle a "good deal" of unwanted touching without going into bite mode, and I don't expect my dogs to be better people than I am .


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

pistos said:


> When I was little my mom's boyfriend had a very unsocialized, aggressive pitbull. He did exactly what you fear - a neighbor's dog came up to him, gave him a nip, and game over. I find the VAST majority of big dogs, even the stereotypical 'aggressive' breeds, are just fine around smaller dogs, and at worst will play too hard. Even in the instances I see where a smaller dog will get in a bigger dog's face and yap and nip, and the big dog doesn't want to play, the reaction is generally to ignore, or to growl and bark.


Generally is only generally, though. We just had a case here where a Pom got into it with a mastiff/pit cross and was killed right off, by what almost certainly wouldn't have been a life-threatening injury to a larger dog. The big dog's owner was fined - which I think is fair enough, since IMO it's incumbent upon owners of large powerful dogs to mind their large powerful dogs carefully - but that doesn't bring the little dog back. It doesn't take a whole lot for certain large dogs to do in little dogs. Even a warning nip can be serious when it's coming from big fangs in big jaws if it hits in the wrong spot.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

luv mi pets-- i feel you, roxie can be a real jerk lol. i mean she never bit me but the vets cant handle her, i have to talk them into letting me restrain.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...pit-bulls-florida-officials-article-1.1874267

This is exactly why I have a problem with the notion that you shouldn't expose your dogs to uncomfortable situations. This guy probably thought "hey, I don't care if my dogs are aggressive. I have control of them, they don't need to see strangers. And if I have company over, I'll put them in their cage." Whoops.

Ok, I know this is an extreme scenario. And I know you all are responsible dog owners, unlike this idiot. And I know your dogs are well behaved and socialized, even if they might not like strangers, they still are socialized. But I like having seen my dog in stressful situations, having seen dogs go up to her in fight mode, having seen her take unwanted petting, and knowing she can handle herself and won't hurt anyone.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm pretty sure we've all seen those things in our dogs, too.

That's how we know they don't like strangers and unwanted petting and can predict what their reaction would be.

Continuing to put the dog in those situations is just mean and gains nothing.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Continuing to put the dog in those situations is just mean and gains nothing.


I've never advocated anything of the sort. I doubt you did so on purpose, but please take care not to misrepresent me.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

pistos said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...pit-bulls-florida-officials-article-1.1874267
> 
> This is exactly why I have a problem with the notion that you shouldn't expose your dogs to uncomfortable situations. This guy probably thought "hey, I don't care if my dogs are aggressive. I have control of them, they don't need to see strangers. And if I have company over, I'll put them in their cage." Whoops.
> 
> Ok, I know this is an extreme scenario. And I know you all are responsible dog owners, unlike this idiot. And I know your dogs are well behaved and socialized, even if they might not like strangers, they still are socialized. But I like having seen my dog in stressful situations, having seen dogs go up to her in fight mode, having seen her take unwanted petting, and knowing she can handle herself and won't hurt anyone.


Good luck with this line of reasoning. "Socializing" and "exposing your dog to stressful situations" only gets you so far. You can't socialize out dog aggression, you can manage it. It is a very unique dog that is bombproof with small children. The story you linked is a story of adults who dropped the ball. Sounds like the owner did the right thing, not sure how the dogs got out of their crates and to the child but why did everyone suddenly leave the child alone? Really light on info here. You are still also equating disinterest in strangers with unstable. My dogs are all perfectly stable (with the exception of possibly my 7lb poodle/chi mix and she actually spent the day playing with my friend's 6 and 8 year old, huge break through for her). My 51lb Carolina Dog (that is a primitive dog breed) can be manhandled by small children, have a child right up in his face pulling his ears and he just wags his tail a bit. He will trail kids back and forth around the house and attend to every call however he completely ignores strange adults, has no interest in greeting them. Eventually with a good bit of work most people can get his attention but he would prefer to move away. He is submissive to other dogs, males and females but he barks on leash. There are different types of dogs, they exist for a reason. I have a dog with a ridiculously outgoing personality, not what I was looking for in a dog and did not expect it in her breed mix. I am hoping she outgrows it. Yes I socialized her, I socialize all of my dogs. I do however expect and prefer a more indifferent attitude as shown by most of my dogs. Your assumption that your dog is safe because you have seen her in stressful situations is just as dangerous, probably more so, than those of us who know what our dogs can handle and work within those limitations. Shall we start euthanizing all dogs that are not "lab like" in personality?


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Omg... You are all twisting my words to mean things that are NOT said.

I want to point that that this started by me sympathizing with your concern about Dove. I started out by saying I think a well raised dog should be able to handle Dove and not go for the kill. Sorry for thinking that. Let me retract. Dove is obviously out of control, and if some pit bull grabs her by the scruff and breaks her neck, it's totally cool. There, feel better? (Yes, you deserved that for your euthanization jab)

I don't know anything about rehabilitating aggressive dogs. If I implied otherwise, I apologize. But if you think the owner did the right thing by having a pair of powerful, strong time bombs in his house, I would beg to differ. What if a couple of idiot middle school kids were playing one of those stupid games where they break into a house and rearrange things? Obviously their fault, right? No way of predicting that could happen. What if he had family over and the dog got out of its cage? These aren't ridiculously low probability scenarios, these things happen EVERY DAY.

I never equated disinterest with strangers as unstable. In fact I said the opposite several times. I even mentioned my own dog was like that.

And I don't know why you think I like labs... Well I do, but I like almost every dog


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

pistos said:


> http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...pit-bulls-florida-officials-article-1.1874267
> 
> This is exactly why I have a problem with the notion that you shouldn't expose your dogs to uncomfortable situations. This guy probably thought "hey, I don't care if my dogs are aggressive. I have control of them, they don't need to see strangers. And if I have company over, I'll put them in their cage." Whoops.


Ok, I see how you thought I was saying the guy should have socialized his dogs more. Bad communication on my part. My point was the mindset that he thought he had control over the environment and could keep them away from situations where they could cause harm. No one has total control over the environment, and we should all be asking ourselves the what-ifs. What if X happens, how would my dog react? And if we don't like the answer, how do we mitigate it? Do we condition the dog for that situation? Do we put extra measures in place to keep it from happening? 

I got a big what-if shoved in my face a few days ago. What if my dog scales a 7 foot fence while I'm a thousand miles away? I tell you I don't like having to answer that question. Stuff happens.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

pistos said:


> What if a couple of idiot middle school kids were playing one of those stupid games where they break into a house and rearrange things? Obviously their fault, right? No way of predicting that could happen. What if he had family over and the dog got out of its cage? These aren't ridiculously low probability scenarios, these things happen EVERY DAY.


Where do you live that middle schoolers breaking into people's houses and rearranging things is an everyday occurrence?


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Here is the problem with your theory though, socialization and forcing dogs into stressful situations doesn't prove anything or prevent anything. It can force a dog to react badly or develop aversions to types of people, situations or other dogs depending on their temperament (ask CptJack about Kylie). I will tell you that I think Dove's biggest issue is that she was probably kept crated and not socialized or exercised most of the first 7months of her life. I think she also has a touch of littermate syndrome. However Duke was locked in a back yard with just his brother for company for 12months and he is amazing. He is exactly as an American Bulldog should be. He ignores people in public, is friendly if forced to be and there is nothing a child can do to him to make him snap. However if someone tried to hurt my child I think he would probably attack, that is crossing the line for him. That is what AB's were bred to be, guardians. I wouldn't have a guardian breed if I wasn't prepared to have one. To be honest I prefer the idea that my dog would protect my child to the alternative. That has been my point all along. There seem to be quite a few posters on this thread who don't get why anyone would want a type of dog that isn't happy boisterous and open to all types of situations. There are many many types of dogs in the world, they come in all varieties and they don't all love everyone all of the time. As far as the article you linked, it was so light on info that I can't make a judgement call on the owner of the dogs in any way. I can say that the parent seems to have made a very poor judgement call. Many people on this board own dogs that might be considered "aggressive" or at the very least not safe with children. I think you might want to be careful about what you say.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Let me summarize how I feel, and hopefully this time I can say it clearly.


I think a dog should be able to handle behavior such as you described with Dove without attacking her. If a dog can't I would say it's poorly raised, poorly socialized, or has mental issues.

I believe a dog should handle the following situations (list not inclusive) without hurting someone:
Tail pulls
Ear pulls
Unexpected pets to the head from strangers
Teenagers breaking into the house
Accidental kick from someone not paying attention to where they are walking.

I am not saying I don't expect the dog to be reactive, and to just take it. But I don't expect injury.

I do not think it's appropriate to deliberately exposure your dog to stressful situations as a form of conditioning. I do believe in adequate socialization. I personally make it a point to minimize interrupting Lucy in her interactions with other people or dogs, but that is largely because I trust her so much. I told a kid today to not pull on her paw, but honestly I was more worried about him doing it to a dog that could react, and hoping he'd learn not to do it anymore (to their credit, the parents also admonished him)

And lastly, I think we shouldn't be over confident in our control over situations. I like knowing my dog won't hurt anyone if I lose control over the situation. Sorry if that offends anyone


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Where do you live that middle schoolers breaking into people's houses and rearranging things is an everyday occurrence?


North America


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

pistos said:


> North America


Me too, and this hasn't happened to me or anyone else I know. They all must be going to your house.

Anyway, I disagree with you. I don't want a dog that would be totally cool with someone breaking into my house, nor do I think a dog should tolerate ear and tail pulls from strangers. Thankfully, there are many different breeds and mixes out there, so we can both have the type of dog we like and can manage.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Remaru said:


> Here is the problem with your theory though, socialization and forcing dogs into stressful situations doesn't prove anything or prevent anything.


I must be schizophrenic, because it must have been the other me that had that theory.



Remaru said:


> Many people on this board own dogs that might be considered "aggressive" or at the very least not safe with children. I think you might want to be careful about what you say.


Kids do dumb things. Kids do dumb things around dogs. Kids do dumb things like let neighbor's dogs out of the backyard. If other people don't know/don't care, I don't know what else to say. For those with dogs they can't trust alone with children, I recommend a padlocked kennel whenever they are away.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Many many dogs are dog aggressive, in fact it is a breed trait for many breeds. I understand if you do not want to own a breed that is known to be dog aggressive, personally I won't own a dog aggressive dog because I prefer to have a multidog household and don't like to crate and rotate so I won't do it but DA is not a result of failure on the part of the owner of the dog or a result of mental illness or instability in the dog. Dog aggression can be managed but it cannot be socialized or trained away. 

Some dogs are more tolerant of handling than others. I would not expect a dog to take ear or tail pulling from a complete stranger in stride. Some breeds are more tolerant than others but even with thorough training and socialization some dogs just will not tolerate being handled in a rough manner by people they don't know. Again, nothing to do with stability. I think you are just used to a certain type of dog.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Me too, and this hasn't happened to me or anyone else I know. They all must be going to your house.


You're right. Because it's never happened to you and your friends, teenagers would never break into a house for a prank. It's always going to be some hardened criminal intent on murder and robbery.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

pistos said:


> You're right. Because it's never happened to you and your friends, teenagers would never break into a house for a prank. It's always going to be some hardened criminal intent on murder and robbery.


Didn't you get annoyed just a couple posts ago about people putting words in your mouth?

Anyway, I'm not saying it _never_ happens. I'm saying it's not an everyday occurrence that we should all worry about when we leave our dogs at home.


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## aegis (Jul 15, 2014)

pistos said:


> Ok, I see how you thought I was saying the guy should have socialized his dogs more. Bad communication on my part. My point was the mindset that he thought he had control over the environment and could keep them away from situations where they could cause harm. No one has total control over the environment, and we should all be asking ourselves the what-ifs. What if X happens, how would my dog react? And if we don't like the answer, how do we mitigate it? Do we condition the dog for that situation? Do we put extra measures in place to keep it from happening?
> 
> I got a big what-if shoved in my face a few days ago. What if my dog scales a 7 foot fence while I'm a thousand miles away? I tell you I don't like having to answer that question. Stuff happens.


In a perfect world, people would show respect. Dogs are not playthings. They are living, unique individuals with their own distinct personalities, influenced by their instincts, genetics, history, and reason. 

Ergo, when the responsibility of adopting a dog is assumed, it becomes necessary to accommodate the dog. Avoid situations the dog is uncomfortable with unless absolutely necessary, or as part of controlled training. Where the dog's needs are incompatible with a desired activity, it is better to leave him or her at home with a sitter. If this sounds like to much of a burden, organizing one's life to help a dog achieve mental growth and stability, then simply don't adopt a dog.

Of course, you can't avoid idiots. All anyone can do a dog's caretaker


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Remaru said:


> Many many dogs are dog aggressive, in fact it is a breed trait for many breeds. I understand if you do not want to own a breed that is known to be dog aggressive, personally I won't own a dog aggressive dog because I prefer to have a multidog household and don't like to crate and rotate so I won't do it but DA is not a result of failure on the part of the owner of the dog or a result of mental illness or instability in the dog. Dog aggression can be managed but it cannot be socialized or trained away.
> 
> Some dogs are more tolerant of handling than others. I would not expect a dog to take ear or tail pulling from a complete stranger in stride. Some breeds are more tolerant than others but even with thorough training and socialization some dogs just will not tolerate being handled in a rough manner by people they don't know. Again, nothing to do with stability. I think you are just used to a certain type of dog.


No, no. I'm not. It's just when I say "I don't think a dog should attack someone for pulling its ear" you hear "I think the dog should just take it happily with no reaction whatsoever, and be a complete marshmallow." I don't understand why you are consistently misstating my words despite my repeated protests?


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Didn't you get annoyed just a couple posts ago about people putting words in your mouth?
> 
> Anyway, I'm not saying it _never_ happens. I'm saying it's not an everyday occurrence that we should all worry about when we leave our dogs at home.


I disagree. I think we should all consider the possibility of a stranger in our house when we're away. And I think we should all consider the possibility that the stranger doesn't necessarily deserve to be mauled to death.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

pistos said:


> I must be schizophrenic, because it must have been the other me that had that theory.
> 
> 
> 
> Kids do dumb things. Kids do dumb things around dogs. Kids do dumb things like let neighbor's dogs out of the backyard. If other people don't know/don't care, I don't know what else to say. For those with dogs they can't trust alone with children, I recommend a padlocked kennel whenever they are away.


Do you leave your dog alone with children? I do, but only my own. Duke is bombproof. I mean that my he is my son's ESA (my son is bipolar) and they have been together since Duke was 1year and my son was 18months. When my son would have the most horrific tantrums you can imagine, screaming, flailing, hitting, kicking, biting, Duke would lay on him and he would do all of this to Duke. Duke would just lay there and lick him to soothe him. That is how bombproof this dog is. I still don't ever leave Duke alone with other people's children. I also don't leave my dog's alone outside, who does that? Some one might let them out of the back yard. The idiot cable man might decide to jump the fence and Duke would decide to bite him because he is trying to kidnap the baby (yes the cable man has jumped the fence). They might decide to jump the fence chasing a squirrel. I am a responsible pet owner and watch my dogs, all 5 of them. If I can manage it while parenting 2 special needs children I think other people can manage it to. I don't go on vacations, Duke starves himself if he is separated from my son. We left him for 3 days once (and I have a place that keeps them in a kennel together, I don't know how they would escape from it as they don't go out) and he just lay on the bottom of the kennel and whined until we came back. 

Every vet, every specialist advises never to leave your dog alone with children and that is for "trust worthy family dogs". I don't think it is that big of a leap to say people take extra precautions with their dogs that have proven to be intolerant with children. It really isn't even that difficult if you don't have children. I have kids and didn't find it hard to keep everyone monitored until my boys were over 6. It really isn't difficult at all unless you just like turning your dog loose in the yard and leaving for 12hours or something.


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## aegis (Jul 15, 2014)

Damn phone. All anyone can do for their dog in public is to raise awareness, block off disrespectful people, and get out of Dodge if it comes to that. The dog is responsible for being aloof and calm, while the owner id responsible for knowing the tolerances and fears the dog has and protecting the dog from these situations when they inevitably arise

Also, yes, if someone breaks into your house, storms right up to your dog or does anything that violates his or her comfort zone, then if the dog reacts it is very well that person's fault


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Remain, I have no objections to anything you just wrote above. I'm just honestly baffled, because I feel we don't disagree by much... In fact I think there was only one random point of contention where I disagreed with what you said. I think you just think I'm saying things that I am not.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

pistos said:


> No, no. I'm not. It's just when I say "I don't think a dog should attack someone for pulling its ear" you hear "I think the dog should just take it happily with no reaction whatsoever, and be a complete marshmallow." I don't understand why you are consistently misstating my words despite my repeated protests?


It is funny, you seem to want to put words in my mouth. I am reading what you are saying perfectly well but I don't think you are reading what I am writing. You said that a dog should not hurt someone for pulling its ear or tail. I am telling you that there are certain breeds and temperament types that just will not stand for rough handling. Yes you may be able to override that in some individuals but I wouldn't count on it. I will again say that I think you are primarily used to a certain type of dog.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Remaru said:


> IYou said that a dog should not hurt someone for pulling its ear or tail. I am telling you that there are certain breeds and temperament types that just will not stand for rough handling.


These two concepts are not mutually exclusive.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Remaru said:


> It is funny, you seem to want to put words in my mouth.


Really? Cause I just got done reading the past few pages, and I spent the vast majority of my comments clarifying my opinion. In fact I only disagreed with one thing you wrote, about the pit bull owner being responsible. Not sure how I am putting words in your mouth talking almost exclusively about my opinion.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Listen I get what you're saying and I don't disagree with you. I know every dog is different and every breed is different. But I can't accept the notion that a dog who will react violently (i.e. more than a warning bite) to fairly normal stressors is a well-behaved dog, and the owner can always control the environment. Stuff happens, expect the unexpected.


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## aegis (Jul 15, 2014)

pistos said:


> These two concepts are not mutually exclusive.


Hmm, IMHO, dogs can't simply be socialized to get more used to everything they dislike (some things, but not everything) and, while a dog should issue warnings first, most children and adults pay no attention to that. Also, it is indeed the owner's responsibility to recognize when the pooch has had quite enough, and get between the dog and the offending innocent child/ criminally ignorant adult, then get out of there and go home or at least somewhere quiet


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

aegis said:


> Hmm, IMHO, dogs can't simply be socialized to get more used to everything they dislike (some things, but not everything) and, while a dog should issue warnings first, most children and adults pay no attention to that. Also, it is indeed the owner's responsibility to recognize when the pooch has had quite enough, and get between the dog and the offending innocent child/ criminally ignorant adult, then get out of there and go home or at least somewhere quiet


Couldn't agree more...


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't think you are agreeing with me or that you understand that there are differences in breed characteristics. Do you understand what dog aggression is, about what guarding property means for a guardian breed? "A warning bite" can do significant damage to a small dog or small child. Heck my puppy can hurt with just her claws in play if I have neglected grinding them, my cat hurts me playing with me and she is only sort of intending to do it (I would not describe her as any more ill behaved than any other cat, in fact she is quite pleasant for a cat). It is not a matter of what you think is well behaved or not, it comes down to the fact that some characteristics are part of breed standard, it would be like removing the desire to herd from border collies. You say you understand that but I don't think you do.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

Well you'll just have to educate me on what it means for a dog to be aggressive to other dogs, or what a guard/protection dog is for. I think someone who uses a protection dog for anything other than protecting the family either doesn't know or doesn't care what could happen. Protecting property isn't worth risking some idiot kid getting killed.

And if what your puppy's claws do to you in play counts as hurt, we have very different definitions of hurt.


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

I am curious why you say a warning bite could cause significant damage. What would you characterize a warning bite as?


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

pistos said:


> I am curious why you say a warning bite could cause significant damage. What would you characterize a warning bite as?


When I was four I was left in a room with an Irish setter. I don't remember the event, but no doubt I was doing something the dog didn't like. I got bitten in the face. . . .not fully attacked. I was lucky. I ended out with a minor scar under my eye. If things had been slightly different, that warning bite could have taken out my eye.

A large-ish dog can do quite a bit of damage with a quick nip.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Casper hates strangers, but that doesn't stop me from being social. I take him lots of places; I just don't let strangers pat him unless he seems interested in meeting them (which he sometimes does). We've been to Woofstock (huge dog festival) and klee kai meetups and on-leash group walks (with 30-50 people and other dogs) with no issues. When I have friends over, if Casper doesn't know/like them I just put him in his crate with a peanut butter Kong and he's perfectly fine.
> 
> I don't like the stereotypical lab temperament. I'm glad that the people who want a dog like that can have one; I'm happy that these dogs exist. They're just not for me. If I could clone my previous dog and know that he'd have the same temperament -- quiet, watchful, aloof, yet confident and non-snappy -- I would do it in a heartbeat.


I do like the stereotypical Lab temperament but often have to manage my dogs so they don't overly bother people who don't want a dog in their face. (p.s. other breeds that tend to be aggressively and obnoxiously friendly are pit bulls and Staffies. In my days running a boarding kennel, the absolutely worst dog for jumping on you and trying to lick your face was a very muscular SBT).

Every dog has its own temperament and way of interacting with people . . . some of it is breed, some individual, some has to do with socialization, some is hardwired. At any point in time you need to manage your dog or dogs in a way that is appropriate to their temperament. If you allow your dogs into situations where they frighten (eg, by aggressive barking) or bother (eg., by nose in crotch) people, don't hold it against the people for avoiding or bad-mouthing you, or in the extreme, reporting you.

The stereotypical Fila Braziliero (CAFIB registry) is at the opposite pole from the Lab. Quoting from a Fila site: "The feature that perhaps is at first sight the most apparent in a Fila's temperament is the "ojeriza" to strangers (ojeriza - sharp aversion). On the contrary to other puppies, a Fila Puppy is not inclined to relaxed playing with anyone. He attaches himself quickly to those with whom he lives but is, however, from his earliest youth suspicious of persons he does not know. Suspicion may make him irritated and annoyed and to some extent even make him growl with a certain amount of aggression, but yet without sufficient self-confidence to attack. In the course of his development the aversion against strangers will become more and more apparent. Already as a puppy the Fila will clearly show his displeasure if a stranger would try to touch him. At about the age of one year the Fila would attack any person unknown to him who would try to touch him.." (http://www.fila-brasileiro.org/fila-brasileiro-temperament.html). If you want to have a Fila, that's your right, I guess. But for God's sake keep it away from strangers and don't take it walking in public places. There will be people who admire your snarling aggressive guardian, but there will also be a lot of people who consider you an idiot and wish ill of your dog. If a lot of people get Filas (not going to happen) and there are a lot of incidents, expect BSL.

As for aloof dogs who might snap if provoked or who will tend to guard property . . . sure, can be managed and a lot of people like this. No big deal unless someone gets stupid and allows a child to interact in the wrong way. Like so much dog stuff . . . it's a question of management.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

wow, i thought Arka was a GSD (puppy).



PatriciafromCO said:


> Yes Arka is a Caucasian...


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Remaru said:


> I am so tired of hearing about how awesome labs are because they are the best dogs and so friendly and the perfect first dogs. I'm sorry but I don't like them and I get so tired of running into them when I'm out because they always charge up to me and my dogs. Being "friendly" doesn't mean you don't need to control your dog and I don't want pounced on by your 100lb dog.


This. You took the words out of my mouth. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## pistos (Jul 18, 2014)

sandgrubber said:


> When I was four I was left in a room with an Irish setter. I don't remember the event, but no doubt I was doing something the dog didn't like. I got bitten in the face. . . .not fully attacked. I was lucky. I ended out with a minor scar under my eye. If things had been slightly different, that warning bite could have taken out my eye.
> 
> A large-ish dog can do quite a bit of damage with a quick nip.


Sure but it'd have to hit the exact right spot (eye, tendon, ligament). A large dog isn't going for the throat as a warning. That was exactly the kind of response I'd be ok with for a dog being pushed to its limits. Would I want a dog continually being put in that situation? No! What if he learns that ears back/growling/snapping don't work? Then he goes straight for the bite. Not good.

But the fact probably is that the dog gave you plenty of warning (which is all I ask of a dog, that and don't go full on bite-and-clamp when signs are ignored), and you being a child didn't understand. It's unfortunate you two were left in the situation.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Feel free to dislike Labs. I suspect what you dislike is people who don't control their dogs...or perhaps you resent the Lab's popularity? I think Labs are popular cause a lot of people like curious, playful, sociable dogs that are not prone to fearfulness . . and such dogs train up well where there is need for a dog that will interact well with the public.

The attached comes from a classic study on breed temperament (Svartberg, 2006, reference on side of chart). Check the 'Sociability' column . . . Lab, boxer, and flatcoat stand out . . . though boxer doesn't do as well with curiosity/fearlessness. This study used data from temperament testing using a standardized test and trained testers. The sample included more than 15,000 dogs! (Worth reading the full paper . . . . note that the temperament test used is a little strange in the way it ranks aggressiveness).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, ask CptJack what happened when she tried to force an aloof puppy to respond to people like a golden retriever. (Spoilers - It didn't end well).

No, seriously. I'm just sick of the inability for people to tell the difference between a dog not being friendly and aggression - and a dog being harried and bugged but issuing proper warnings as an aggressive dog and bite risk. None of this is that black and white.

And at the end of the day responsibility is on the owner to protect the dog from the stupid people and, if necessary, stupid people from the dog. Failure in that is laziness and fault in the human in the equation - not fault in the dog.

Also gotta add my voice to the 'Never heard of breaking into houses as a prank' group. That happens?! Well, fortunately my state's one of them that says injury in pursuit of criminal activity is not the liability of the owner, and breaking and entering is criminal activity, and THAT level of stupidity is where I draw my line in willingness to protect. So, no, I'd have no problem sleeping at night if one of my dogs bit the SNOT out of some idiot kid breaking into my house for fun. I try to prevent that because I don't really want my DOGS killed by a real criminal but frankly I don't have much sympathy with so called kids being THAT idiotic. (Note: Bit.My dogs are about as likely to maul as I am develop the capacity for flight. In reality, 4 of 5 would likely bark their heads off and hide and even Thud adores kids to the degree that it's unlikely but in this case? I can dream!).


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> Feel free to dislike Labs. I suspect what you dislike is people who don't control their dogs...or perhaps you resent the Lab's popularity? I think Labs are popular cause a lot of people like curious, playful, sociable dogs that are not prone to fearfulness . . and such dogs train up well where there is need for a dog that will interact well with the public.
> 
> The attached comes from a classic study on breed temperament (Svartberg, 2006, reference on side of chart). Check the 'Sociability' column . . . Lab, boxer, and flatcoat stand out . . . though boxer doesn't do as well with curiosity/fearlessness. (note that the temperament test used is a little strange in the way it ranks aggressiveness).
> 
> View attachment 163306


Or people could just prefer a different temperament.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Or people could just prefer a different temperament.


Yep.

Mostly, I dislike out of control dogs - I admit that freely.

But even the BEAUTIFUL competition obedience golden in some of my classes just grates on my nerves. Nothing wrong with the dog, but I don't want to own him. Some of it is the fact that they are social - I don't like dogs that are that 'extroverted'. I also don't like 'hard' tempered dogs, and prefer mine a bit (or a lot) more sensitive. That I own the dogs I do is not an accident. Yes, one of them is a social butterfly and extrovert. She is my husband's dog, chosen by my husband and primarily cared for by him. If I had to do it, I'd go nuts. The other dog I have any issue at all with here is Thud and that's because he lacks sensitivity in both the physical and emotional sense and is very, very like a lab in that one particular way. 

I have a very specific dog type I like and that is:
Unconcerned with people who do not belong in the family and/or straight up one person dogs. Polite, non-reactive, but aloof, and unconcerned. Dismissive, maybe even 'snobby' if you apply people terms to it.
Biddable.
High energy
Sensitive/Soft. My disapproval should matter to the dog. Not enough to shut it down or destroy it, but enough to influence future behavior.
Relatively serious - happy, but not goofy/silly. 

Labs are missing about half of that equation. Therefore, I just don't like them.

I also don't like pits and a whole lot of other outgoing or 'hard' dogs. The only other factor in play is they're just too big for my taste, and the bigger the dog the more that happy-go-lucky, loves everybody temperament grates because it just seems... magnified. But, no, even in control I just don't like them. I kinda figure that's okay. There's lots of dogs (individuals and breeds) out there for me. 

(And it's NOT an insult for me not to like them, either. They are absolutely perfect for people who like that. What is kind of insulting is the implication that they're the only 'right' breed temperament in existence and the standard by which all other dogs are measured. Social-ness and love of all people and dogs and living beings is NOT a quintessential canine trait and I'm honestly not sure when people decided that it was. There are a whole lot of dog breeds where that's considered a FAULT and that have been around for longer than the lab.)


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

pistos said:


> I believe a dog should handle the following situations (list not inclusive) without hurting someone:
> Teenagers breaking into the house


I would hope to God that Jewel would hurt ANYONE who tries to break into my house.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Labs are like children to me. I can appreciate them for what they are and have fun with them for a couple hours, but at the end of the day, I'm happy to send them back to their parents.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

d_ray said:


> I would hope to God that Jewel would hurt ANYONE who tries to break into my house.


I hope to god this person sticks with (the fairly limited number of) breeds known for that kind of thing and is prepared to step up their game when they get older, arthritic, and their sight and-or hearing starts going, to protect their dog. I also hope like heck they crate.

I don't believe anyone or anything should have to tolerate being pestered, bugged, irritated, having their space invaded, having their HOMES invaded, or being physically hurt. I think there are some dogs who WILL, and if you want that that's great, but expecting an any living being to sit back and take crap that ranges from bullying to abuse? No. Now, that this person has said they don't count warning nips, growling, etc, as 'hurting someone' it's a understandable (IMO- I think a dog who goes straight to full damaging bite or maul is just dangerous) but the presence of escalating warnings doesn't remove the onus from the OWNER - not on the dog - to protect both dog and idiots who believe such handling is appropriate.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I hope to god this person sticks with (the fairly limited number of) breeds known for that kind of thing and is prepared to step up their game when they get older, arthritic, and their sight and-or hearing starts going, to protect their dog. I also hope like heck they crate.
> 
> I don't believe anyone or anything should have to tolerate being pestered, bugged, irritated, having their space invaded, having their HOMES invaded, or being physically hurt. I think there are some dogs who WILL, and if you want that that's great, but expecting an any living being to sit back and take crap that ranges from bullying to abuse? No. Now, that this person has said they don't count warning nips, growling, etc, as 'hurting someone' it's a understandable (IMO- I think a dog who goes straight to full damaging bite or maul is just dangerous) but the presence of escalating warnings doesn't remove the onus from the OWNER - not on the dog - to protect both dog and idiots who believe such handling is appropriate.


This X1,000,000. 

Pepper WILL put up with ear pulls, hair yanks, strangers petting him randomly, etc etc. Merlin WILL NOT. Not because he isn't well behaved or not socialized. He functions and it's normal. He is just not as tolerant. His first move is to get away from a person or warning bark, not bite. But I, as the owner, strive to keep him in a comfortable environment. People and children may observe him from a safe distance. He doesn't like if so I don't subject him to it. If people are over and he is visibly agitated, I will personally monitor him or put him away. For his comfort and people's safety. 

As the owner, it's up to you (general you) to make your dog feel comfortable and keeps other people safe.

For the record, I would never choose a lab or golden for myself. They are great dogs... For other people. 

ETA: I really hope kids don't think breaking and entering us fun and games. That terrifies me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The first thing I tell people with Kylie is to ignore her. If she comes to you with her tail wagging, talk to her if you want but keep your hands to yourself. 

It's taken the better part of two years of me being strict with that, body blocking, telling people no, and keeping her in an environment where most of her interactions with strangers are with dog savvy folks (other training/competing people) to get comfortable and confident around them. The worst thing in the world when she was a puppy (in her opinion) was taking treats from people because it meant they were going to touch her and she HATED THAT. It's gradually reversing itself enough that she'll take treats, follow people around with her tail wagging, retrieve a toy for them or whatever.

But she STILL hates being pet/touched/handled by strangers. She's not aggressive, though she'll sometimes give a growl. Mostly? She's miserable and stressed. Her ears go back, she dodges and ducks, she avoids the person who was too forward too fast. In truth, she's not into being pet/cuddled by anyone though she'll suck it up and tolerate it. 

And more people should REALLY realize, too, that not all dogs are fans of being PET as a means of interaction with even their people. It does nothing for the dog, just stresses them.

http://eileenanddogs.com/2012/08/29/does-your-dog-really-want-to-be-petted/ <-- Good link.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

pistos said:


> I like having seen my dog in stressful situations, having seen dogs go up to her in fight mode, having seen her take unwanted petting, and knowing she can handle herself and won't hurt anyone.


Thats great, sounds like my old dog Jane, who got her CGC with no training- thats just the dog she was.
And now I have Layla, who isnt remotely like her (although probably more velcro).
She is pretty alert, bold, and yeah aggressive in a lot of ways.
Would you rehome your dog if you got one that is always "on", scrappy barking, ON?
Have you had a dog that was aggressive? Just curious.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

pistos said:


> North America


Wow, I've never heard of that around here. Petty theft from garages and sheds, sure, but entering someone's house when they're home will almost certainly result in a shotgun blast to the face. Entering and doing damage/moving things when they're not home. . .well, better hope they don't find you later. Rural homeowners are more dangerous than their dogs! 

Dogs are animals. They do animal things. I'm not sure when it was decided that dogs had to be teddy bears. When my mom was a kid, her dog bit the gardener just because she didn't like him and they never even thought of putting her down for it. But now dogs need to be passive little pillows or everybody throws a fit :/.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

BernerMax said:


> Thats great, sounds like my old dog Jane, who got her CGC with no training- thats just the dog she was.
> And now I have Layla, who isnt remotely like her (although probably more velcro).
> She is pretty alert, bold, and yeah aggressive in a lot of ways.
> Would you rehome your dog if you got one that is always "on", scrappy barking, ON?
> Have you had a dog that was aggressive? Just curious.


No, this poster does not understand what "dog aggression" or a guardian breed means. I do get the impression this poster thinks dogs with dog aggression were just poorly socialized/trained and that you can make all dogs outgoing and friendly with training. They keep saying they get that there are differences in breed characteristics but they don't seem to actually get it.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Dogs are going to be more tolerant of their pack members compared to the stranger. My dogs were great with kids but that does not mean I thought they would be as good with their friends. Plus, I did not allow my kids to pull my dogs tails or ears. I would not like it when someone pulls my hair. I have more tolerance for my own kids compared to the stranger's kids in a mall. Especially if that kid is running around screaming. At times I feel like biting them and sometimes I just grit my teeth and leave the mall . Plus one day you might be in a better mood and can withstand kids and other days not so much. Why would a dog be any different? We expect a lot out of an animal and that is not fair.


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## brandiw (Jan 20, 2010)

Moe is aggressive towards strangers. I adopted him as an adult, so I don't know what his young years were like, but he showed a lot of signs of neglect. I doubt socialization was big on the agenda. He won't go out of his way to be aggressive if we are out on a walk and he sees someone, but he does not like to be approached. We have worked and worked with him, and his reactivity is better, but I can only trust him with a handful of people. He is now on prozac, and that along with training seems to have helped a bunch. He is always crated when strangers are in the house, and he usually calms quickly.

I do know that our work has been productive with him. We have a vinyl privacy fence, and a panel was broken when we had a tree removed. They repaired the fence, but there was a loose edge that they didn't screw in, and Moe managed to squeeze through. As we were frantically looking all over the neighborhood for him, one of our neighbors had him on a leash and was walking up the road with him. He had went over to play with her dogs (he loves other dogs). She let them play a bit, and then he came over to her and let her check his tags and snap a leash on him. I never imagined that he would let a stranger touch his collar and snap on a leash. I still don't think he is trustworthy, but at least we seem to have made progress. 

Now, I certainly don't say "so what" about it. I truly wish he was a happy, friendly dog with everyone. We live in a neighborhood with lots of people and kids, and a friendlier dog would be much easier. But, he is who is at this point, and we just deal with it.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I kind of see HA dogs as the same way I see DA dogs. Depending on the severity and type of aggression, I don't know if I could handle a HA dog, but if you think you can and are able to maintain them and keep the public safe, then more power to you.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

This thread got weird.

I don't expect my dogs to put up with much crap. I'm confident they COULD put up with a lot of crap - one time a child ninja hugged Pip at the dog park and he did nothing but stand there looking extremely miserable. But... I don't really WANT him to be miserable. And I sure as heck don't expect him to put up with having his ears or tail pulled. If he's uncomfortable with a stranger trying to pet him, then I don't let the stranger try to pet him, not expect him to tolerate it because... reasons? 

My own father in law (who I adore, btw, there's no weird family dynamic going on here) wanted SO badly to be Pip's friend on a recent family vacation and just could not wrap his head around how ignoring him was the best way to make friends. He kept pushing the forced attention, making Pip more and more uncomfortable until I had to get a little snippy with something like a "Please just IGNORE HIM!" Meanwhile, he was snuggling and asking for pets from my mother in law and my parents within half a day.


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## elliesbelly (Apr 23, 2014)

I hear you Bea! I truly believe that dogs are as mentally diverse as humans ..I mean you can do all the training and socializing you want but sometimes they just become who they want/are meant to become. It doesn't make her a bad dog if anything it sounds like she is very dedicated to her family and wants to protect you guys. And you are taking the necessary steps to protect her from any unwanted situations. Some people know they have a non- stranger friendly dog but still allow for situations to occur that end up getting the dog taken away or worse euthanized. It sounds like you love her very much and she loves you! You knowing what makes her happy and unhappy will keep her safe  and she is NOT a bad dog!


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

My view is basically that in ordinary circumstances, a dog needs to be able to, without snapping, tolerate the routine irritants in its environment long enough for the owner to intervene and end the irritation. What those irritations are is going to vary by location and lifestyle, but for the average dog it does include the occasional handsy person.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I believe in intervening BEFORE someone gets handsy.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

As the saying goes, no plan survives contact with the enemy.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have had dogs for my entire lifetime. I have had dogs in public places for my entire adult life.

I can honestly say that, while relieved I don't believe any would bite if randomly grabbed, I have NEVER been unable to not see someone approaching my dog before they got within touching distance. How checked out from your dog do you have to be to have that happen?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

parus said:


> As the saying goes, no plan survives contact with the enemy.


Including the plan for your dog to tolerate "routine irritants"?



CptJack said:


> I have had dogs for my entire lifetime. I have had dogs in public places for my entire adult life.
> 
> I can honestly say that, while relieved I don't believe any would bite if randomly grabbed, I have NEVER been unable to not see someone approaching my dog before they got within touching distance. How checked out from your dog do you have to be to have that happen?


On a leash especially, I don't understand how it can happen. Off leash, it's happened to me exactly once - the aforementioned ninja hug by a child at the dog park, which made me up my willingness to physically and verbally intervene before anything happens.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I had Kris on a short leash when I turned the corner to go in the arena door but still did not have time to stop a little toddler stepping up from the left of Kris and putting his face into her nose. Luckily for me she just licked his face but it was not because I was not paying attention.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm not saying it never happens, but I am seriously sitting around trying to think of when in my life my dogs and I have been in a situation where, on leash, somebody could have gotten close enough to my dogs to touch them before I was able to intervene. 

I can honestly say it never has. Maybe I'm just not in tight enough quarters or something but even going around corners of aisles or what have you the dogs are on my outside and slightly behind me so I'm *STILL* between them and whoever is coming around the opposite way. People behind MIGHT sneak up while we're going around I guess?


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

The only two times our dogs have been harassed by a child before we could intervene involved the same child with two different dogs; both off-leash.

The kid is as rebellious as heck and gets no discipline. He thinks it's funny to corner our dogs or sneak up from behind and slap them. The first reacted and nipped him when he was a toddler. The second time as an older child, Clyde, tolerated it at first, I yelled at the kid for hitting him, and then the child sneaks up on sleeping Clyde, punches him in the hip and gets a nice big reaction. He still didn't learn. Now when we have that branch of family over, the dogs are always put away until dogmonster kid goes back home.

I wish both dogs never had to go through being cornered and terrorized by my cousin. That being said, you can train them and prepare them just in case. Clyde is habituated to being slapped (during rough play) and being spooked on purpose (something I usually do to initiate a game to create a positive association). To top it off, he is well-versed in impulse control activities. He has been prepared his whole life on the off chance an out of control human gets to him first. I trusted him just as much before the incident as I do now.

He doesn't need to be harassed by a kid on purpose for me to know he won't become another "pitbull mauls child" in the news. If anything, it tempts fate because you are rolling a dice with an unknown number of sides in a gamble on both the dog and kids' lives. Hit the lucky number and you get a dead dog and a dying human.

Its a lot like getting your black belt in jiu jitsu with the intent for self-defense and then walking alone through a gang-infested area so you can make sure you are capable of defending yourself.

It's foolish.


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## xena (Oct 3, 2013)

Depends what You like 
I had one aggressive dog and will do my best not to have another one like that. She was aggressive already when she was a puppy. We had her 13 years, but... first 10 years? OMG!!!!
Why not? That's mine safety, safety of the dog and safety of others. Period. 
*And i think we can't misunderstand aggression with "i don't like strangers to touch me".* Aggressive dogs don't need a real reason to attack You/ a child/ a dog. 
Aggression is not ok at all. My dog will bite and i like it- would be kind of really weird philosophy. 
Life with Aggressive dog- no off leash moments, walks- nightmare (dog trying to get to an object he wants to bite, going CRAZY, you- holding leash with all the strength you have, hoping he/she'll not get away somehow, broken leashes, broken collars) eyes all around your head, separating your dog from guests/friends(if you want anyone to visit you ever), dealing with dog fights (and they can be really scary moments),...
I don't wish all this to anyone... Today I wish that time when we had her I was older and more experienced, but I wasn't. Her life would be much happier if she didn't have problems "with her head". And I do really blame ourselves for that. For lack of this and lack of that, for letting her be this way.... She was my sweetheart and i loved her to bits, I could do anything with her- rest of my family not. She was my dog and I was her girl. But I will never ever want to have an aggressive doig.

*STILL I THINK THIS IS JUST MISUNDERSTANDING AND THE TITLE OF THE THREAD IS LEADING TO WRONG CONCLUSIONS. It's about you having a dog that doesn't go and show love to everyone, not a really aggressive dog.*

I like to be sure that my current dog is reacting well to pretty much any situation- doesn't bark, doesn't bite, doesn't fight. Of course I always watch him closely when interacting with strangers, kids or dogs (I'm pretty much quick in reactions- reactions I've learned in time and speed I've worked out with previous "Little Devil" ;p a second* can matter*). 
strangers we meet for a short amount of time often say -oh, this is a "dog of one owner"- because he doesn't really care about them- you can pet me, but if you count on any affection back.... OH! THERE'S A BALL! LOL 
Although if we meet more often then they'll get some more of his attention, at least "Hi".
Come to our home and he'll love You forever and ever and ever.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

xena said:


> Depends what You like
> I had one aggressive dog and will do my best not to have another one like that. She was aggressive already when she was a puppy. We had her 13 years, but... first 10 years? OMG!!!!
> Why not? That's mine safety, safety of the dog and safety of others. Period.
> *And i think we can't misunderstand aggression with "i don't like strangers to touch me".* Aggressive dogs don't need a real reason to attack You/ a child/ a dog.
> ...


Great description of the "so what". A truly aggressive dog is one more thing to worry about . . . and large and constant worry that lives for many years. No thank you.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

doggiepop said:


> you can have a dog from the best breeder, trained by the best trainer's, lives in the best enviromrent, only the best
> of the best, etc. if the dog doesn't take to all of the best then you could end up with an aggressive dog. i think with
> some dogs it doesn't matter what you do they're going to be aggressive.


I gather Pistos has never owned breeds who have a history of being aloof and unforgiving of people mistakes. I do not allow any man handling by strangers, I also will allow petting by certain people in certain situations, if the situation or person (s) or atmosphere is not conducive to that than I tell people to GTFO and if people get mad than tough. My job is to ensure my dog is happy and healthy and always comfortable.


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## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

To the OP, your dogs sound like they are good fits for your family and it's frustrating to have people judge the situation with such ignorance. 

As far as truly aggressive dogs go, I absolutely know I don't have the personality, experience, or desire to take on the responsibility of constant management. My dog is the happy go lucky, fun loving, everyone pet me kind of dog it sounds like a lot of people on this thread would hate. He was like that from the moment we first met him at the rescue. He bounced over to meet us and is all about body contact, plopping in my lap with a toy the first time he met me. However, he also has a bit of the scrappy terrier in him and velcro that I can only assume comes from the standard schnauzer in him. Despite his love of everyone he always has an eye on me. If we're at someones house and he's having a blast loving on everyone and doesn't seem to be paying attention but I get my purse or walk towards the door, he's stopping what he's doing and is 100% focused on following me. He was like that since the first day at our house. My husband can get up in the middle of the night and he doesn't bat and eye, but I get up and he flies up from a dead sleep to follow me. He also will bark and growl if he hears something he doesn't like. Last night for example, something fell in another room and he jumped up, ran over and started growling and barking. He's done this to people walking out from a dark room as well, but as soon as he sees who it is his body immediately relaxes and he's all wiggles. I have to say I'm okay with a little bit of protectiveness and at least I know he'll alert me. On walks, when he knows I'm by his side? Not always so focused on me... but I'm not going to let him run at anyone walking by and am working on his jumping and over excitement. Sometimes I guess I do wonder what it would be like to have a dog that doesn't care about other dogs or people... would it be easier? However, I love his enthusiasm and he's an overall good fit for me. I guess I have a bit of a golden retriever personality myself.

As for kids breaking into houses as a joke... I definitely wouldn't blame a dog for attacking. If teenagers broke in late at night and my husband wasn't home, how am I supposed to know they aren't there to rape me, just re-organize some things as a joke. Even as a friendly dog, I don't think Charlie would like uninvited guests he doesn't know sneaking into our house at night. He'd at least growl/bark at them and I can't say I'd be too upset if he bit them either. I'd probably be right there with him hitting them with the closest object I could find. That's just asking to be killed really!


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## Rootin'Rigby (Dec 21, 2013)

My dog is like that, but I think with him it's more of just being scared of new people. He HATES it when people he doesn't know approach him, or hold their hand out to him. I always warn them right away, "He doesn't like hands, just ignore him." And he does ok. 

My son is 9, and is always having friends come over. Rigby is really good about kids he already knows, and actually gets excited to see them. But if it's somebody new, he freaks. What works for us is to crate him when we know a new person is coming over. Once they're here, we tell them to ignore Rigby, and don't approach the cage. And then we tell them that we're letting him out, and to just ignore him. Don't pet, touch, talk to him, look at him, etc. After about 5-10 min, he's approaching them, and sitting by them. And then once that's over, he's fine with them every time they come over. But, it has to be HIS idea!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Rootin'Rigby said:


> My dog is like that, but I think with him it's more of just being scared of new people. He HATES it when people he doesn't know approach him, or hold their hand out to him. I always warn them right away, "He doesn't like hands, just ignore him." And he does ok.
> 
> My son is 9, and is always having friends come over. Rigby is really good about kids he already knows, and actually gets excited to see them. But if it's somebody new, he freaks. What works for us is to crate him when we know a new person is coming over. Once they're here, we tell them to ignore Rigby, and don't approach the cage. And then we tell them that we're letting him out, and to just ignore him. Don't pet, touch, talk to him, look at him, etc. After about 5-10 min, he's approaching them, and sitting by them. And then once that's over, he's fine with them every time they come over. But, it has to be HIS idea!


Poor Rigby  I can kind of relate since I am that way about people I don't know, too.  I have severe anxiety and a crowd of people around me really freaks me out and makes me really aggravated.i know people think I am weird ... or always looking for someone because I am always looking around or over my shoulder when I am standing or sitting somewhere lol.


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## Rootin'Rigby (Dec 21, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Poor Rigby  I can kind of relate since I am that way about people I don't know, too.  I have severe anxiety and a crowd of people around me really freaks me out and makes me really aggravated.i know people think I am weird ... or always looking for someone because I am always looking around or over my shoulder when I am standing or sitting somewhere lol.


Aw, I'm sorry.  Actually, he does very well in crowds, which surprises me. He does fine, as long as nobody approaches him. I get really annoyed, because everyone thinks that the "right" thing to do is hold their hand out to him. (which is pretty normal) But, it totally freaks Rigby out. He cowers and starts barking and squealing like they're going to beat him. I can usually just head them off and say, "He's scared, and doesn't like hands, just ignore him." and he does fine. He does fine with strangers walking all around him, as long as they don't approach him or give him attention. lol


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## xena (Oct 3, 2013)

Well its humans thing- with all this hand to sniff- dogs don't give each others paws to sniff lol. So his reaction is not so abnormal. Doing this to unknown dog you can expect a bite... He's just fearful. Ignoring this kind of dog is the best way to make him feel you're not a threat... when I had a small dog even though she was grown up people tend to say to children- ooh look what a sweet puppy- which in kids of course created a need to reach our for her. Soo annoying as she didn't like it and the speed of my reaction had to be really good, so the kid didn't get hurt


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## Patricia B (Jun 21, 2015)

I have two Min Pins and despite being well socialised they just don't like strangers. It's a trait of the breed to be wary, though some are more friendly than others. My dogs tolerate strangers when they are out and about, and will permit a small amount of petting, but they are just not interested in even the best intentioned person and will ignore all attempts, including treats, to win them over. One of them is a show dog and is very good there for some reason, but when visitors come to the house they both go crazy and I have to put them out of the way as they would definitely bite. I'm not particularly worried. They love me and my husband and we have no kids around. Theyr'e usually fine with other dogs too.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I don't understand people who think dogs need to be 100% friendly.

People could not understand that with my Caucasian Ovcharka, it doesn't matter what you do, how you talk, ect she is not going to like you period. 

I have a couple dog social Pits, but others not so much. They will fight another dog. They also have high prey drive so squirrel or small animals will excite them. It's not a matter of training and it doesn't matter how friendly the other dog is, my dog does not want to play.


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## ETORIGO (Oct 6, 2017)

Many people feel dogs do not have any rights. People can just do whatever they want and the dog has to accept it.

Dog issues are caused by two things: 1) lack of respect by the person getting bit; 2) lack of responsibility by owners. Mostly the former.


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## Dingo (Oct 6, 2017)

I think there is a BROAD range of aggression. There is a big difference from your dog not being a "people-person/dog" to the "If I accidentally drop my leash my dog will attack and maul someone or your dog".

I have a lot of patience for the former, and zero for the latter. 

My dog grew up in the wild running with a pack. He is seven years old now but can still be a nervous wreck around unfamiliar people or other dogs. He has never bitten anyone. Do I think he would bite someone? Nope. DO I want to roll those dice when someone strange is all over him and he is clearly nervous? Nope. My dog has a lot of primitive behavior displays that are clear cues to his next potential move. In reading those, I have a good idea of where he is at. Do I consider him an aggressive dog? No way, he will lick you to death and for the most part loves everyone. If he doesn't know someone they may not want to hang around his neck smothering him (though even then for the most part it only takes a few minutes for him to like you). For some reason he hates the light cell phones make at night. Some might call that aggressive.

My problem is the aforementioned latter group. If you can't gurantee your dog will not attack me or my dog if you drop/break your leash, you shouldn't walk your dog in public. I can say this based on experince when a pit bull attacked my girlfriend when we were walking our dogs. Someone dropped the leash and a 75lb dog went barreling right for her. If I had my pistol that day I would have put that dog down...and I love dogs and understand it wasn't the dog's fault. 

If you know your dog falls on the extreme end of the aggression scale (like what I described) he is a walking liability. These dogs are typically euthanized if they attack a person on a public street. The other part is of course the liability - there are people (myself included) that will sue you into the ground. 

I would imagine those are two extremes and most people's pets fall somewhere along the middle of the spectrum. It should be common sense that you watch your dog's behavior and err on the side of safety and personal responsibility, then the world will turn. Unfortunately all to often it is not.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm sorry for your experience and understand where you are coming from....

But every dog that attacks is not a Pit Bull! A 75lbs Pit Bull would be *extremely rare*, so I find this highly unlikely. 

Who the ........ drops their dog's leash, even accidentally, with an aggressive dog!? Never had this happen, it's not hard to be a responsible handler. Even my young daughter knows better.


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## ETORIGO (Oct 6, 2017)

Ban the brat from your house. Only way he gets in again is for him to atone. Family or not, only the stupid put up with ill-mannered louts.


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## arttrainer (Apr 12, 2017)

I have a fear aggressive dog that I work hard to manage. I cross streets to avoid people. I leave the sidewalk and walk in the street to avoid people. I change our route to avoid people. I did not appreciate the jogger who quietly came up behind us and did not give us space. I did not hear him with the nearby traffic. He ran right up behind us. Luckly I was able to grab the traffic leash handle and pull my dog to me and away from the jogger.


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## crysania (Oct 1, 2010)

parus said:


> This. Aloof is great, reserved is great, cautious is fine. Even standoffish. Aggressive toward humans, not so much. Personally I think a dog that instigates aggression (other than in extraordinary circumstances), or reacts to commonplace situations with aggression (whether fear-aggression or overt aggression) is a timebomb, and that timebomb needs to be defused one way or another ASAP. Over its lifetime a dog will from time to time escape handler control.


This is basically my thought. I don't care if my dog thinks everyone on earth is the best person ever. That's not important. My dog is a little skittish of new people and tends to back off if they approach him (give him 10 minutes to acclimate and he's fine). But a dog who reacts to strangers with unwarranted aggression is dangerous. Period. I'm ok with standoffish or cautious (though I've worked on the latter). I'm NOT ok with him attempting to bite someone unless it's under extraordinary circumstances. 

A dog who reacted to humans by biting, would be muzzled and with a vet behaviorist quickly. A dog who bites is a HUGE liability.


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