# Puppy throws a fit in crate for about 9-15 minutes



## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

So I've had my puppy for 9 days now. he still follows me around the house a little bit but now will go play on his own and wander around on his own. 

I trust him not to pee anymore/poop in the house, so while i still pay attention to him I don't have an eagle eye on him anymore.

I know this is separation anxiety but it's just weird because i only put him in the crate when he's about to nod off. I've read dozens of journals and asked friends that have dogs how long this tantrum throwing last. nobody really gives a solid answer.

when they ask me though how long he whines a throws a fit i say anywhere between 9-15 minutes usually 10 minutes he's done. at night time he never throws a fit and if he does he's done in about 2 minutes sometimes less.

and everybody immediately says you're lucky.

I'm curious though if anybody knows exactly when my pup will accept that I'm gone during the week for 4 hours at a time. honestly I'd like to leave him alone longer. Is that doable? When can i go have lunch with work colleagues and get back to my regular scheduled programming and come home to my furry friend? 

i know he can hold his bladder for 7 hours as i no longer have to wake up anymore during the night. which I've also been told I'm lucky since my pup is 11 weeks old. So do you think its fine to leave him for 8 hours?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

No, I don't think it's fine to leave an 11 week old puppy in a crate for 8 hours, is the short answer. 

In my opinion, that's bordering on neglect. Part of having a puppy is sacrificing your social/personal life in order to be home for him when he needs you. I extend my work day and drive home on lunch to make sure my puppy is never crated for longer than 4.5 hours (he's 13 weeks old). Which means roughly 55 hour weeks, two hours of a driving a day and no lunches for me. 

You can get back to your "regularly scheduled programming" when your dog is no longer a puppy. So, depending on the breed, 12-18 months old. IF you didn't want to sacrifice your time, social life and commitments in order to properly care for a puppy, you should have considered the amount of time it takes to raise one before diving in.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> No, I don't think it's fine to leave an 11 week old puppy in a crate for 8 hours, is the short answer.
> 
> In my opinion, that's bordering on neglect. Part of having a puppy is sacrificing your social/personal life in order to be home for him when he needs you. I extend my work day and drive home on lunch to make sure my puppy is never crated for longer than 4.5 hours (he's 13 weeks old). Which means roughly 55 hour weeks, two hours of a driving a day and no lunches for me.
> 
> You can get back to your "regularly scheduled programming" when your dog is no longer a puppy. So, depending on the breed, 12-18 months old. IF you didn't want to sacrifice your time, social life and commitments in order to properly care for a puppy, you should have considered the amount of time it takes to raise one before diving in.


OH wow... That's a lot of dedication I admire it though. I'm dedicated to the little guy also. And i'm fortunate enough to live close enough to work to dive home on lunch everyday. (work in the same city i live). 

and you're right i don't think i considered how large an impact this little guy would be on my social life. Still I do manage to have one sometimes when i take him for a walk and potty i'll crate him for a couple hours and go have some drinks with friends and come back home. I just don't stay out all night anymore. which is fine honestly because it saves me money. haha. 

So when do you think he'll get better at being left alone for 4 hour time frames? He doesn't have debilitating anxiety he just doesn't like being left alone. But other than barking and biting the gate there's no other signs of stress.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I guess I don't view it as dedication. It's an obligation that I made the second I bought the puppy and took him home. 

I don't think your puppy has separation anxiety, as you mentioned in your first post. It sounds like regular puppy behavior. If you think about it, up until 3 weeks ago, he had other living things to spend time with 24/7. Then he was suddenly removed from his litter and put somewhere where he's totally alone. That takes an adjustment period to get used to. 

Do you put stuffed Kongs or bully sticks for him to chew on in his crate? My puppy goes straight for those when he is crated and doesn't even mind when I walk away.

I think you can start extending his crate time a bit beyond 4 hours at around 6 months old. That's when I will start extending Titan's (I cannot have 55 hour weeks and drive 70 miles a day indefinitely). Going over 8 hours a day *total* crate time isn't the best, but we all have lives and sometimes it's unavoidable.

And yes, puppies have a huge impact on social lives. I used to spend 2-3 nights a week with my friends. Now it's 1 night every 3rd week. I think the 6 month mark is when that starts to be noticeably more flexible.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

No, I wouldn't leave an 11 week old puppy for 8 hours. 6 months is usually a good time frame to assume puppies have developed bladder control. They realize "hey, I have to pee" and instead of squatting they ask to go out, or hold it longer until you let them out. I still come home at lunch for my adult dog, even before I got the puppy, though as an adult I was fine with occasionally going out to lunch and leaving him home alone. I didn't really feel comfortable with that until he was out of crate during the day around 18 months. I just don't personally like crating my dogs for 9 hours a day straight through unless it's an emergency, but I work close to home so that's easy for me to say.

As far as whining, there aren't any hard and fast rules online because it varies so much by dog. One of mine cried for an hour in the crate even as a 1 year old. My puppy hasn't cried in her crate since the first week we had her. It's so variable. But 10min isn't a big deal and will probably go away rather than escalate.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't work close to home and will never crate Titan for 9 hours straight  I think that's just too long for any dog, no matter the age, to be crated (unless it's an emergency). I'm hoping around 7-8 months old I'll be able to set up a 3' high play pen fence and contain him in part of the house that way. While he won't be completely free-roaming, he will be able to get up and move and do whatever else he feels like. 

OP, eventually a play pen may be a good solution for your longer days, as it provides more freedom of movement than a crate does, while still confining to ensure that nothing in your home gets destroyed in your absence.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> I don't work close to home and will never crate Titan for 9 hours straight  I think that's just too long for any dog, no matter the age, to be crated (unless it's an emergency). I'm hoping around 7-8 months old I'll be able to set up a 3' high play pen fence and contain him in part of the house that way. While he won't be completely free-roaming, he will be able to get up and move and do whatever else he feels like.
> 
> OP, eventually a play pen may be a good solution for your longer days, as it provides more freedom of movement than a crate does, while still confining to ensure that nothing in your home gets destroyed in your absence.



I live in an apartment but i have plenty of room in the kitchen to set something like that up considering i use the coffee table in the living room to eat. so i don't have a dining room table or anything.

with my little 2.1 pound guy a 700 square foot apartment is more than enough room for him to do full sprints from end to end when we play fetch. I also read that my breed of dog. (Pomeranian/Chihuahua) is actually an indoor dog which gets 90% of it's exercise indoors playing with toys and running around. They don't like the outside as much as most dogs but still do enjoy walks. 

maybe when i'm 100% sure he's potty trained and isn't throwing a tantrum when i leave i'll set something like that up.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

keysmachine said:


> I also read that my breed of dog. (Pomeranian/Chihuahua) is actually an indoor dog which gets 90% of it's exercise indoors playing with toys and running around. They don't like the outside as much as most dogs but still do enjoy walks.


I wouldn't put any stock in that. They are still dogs and like to do things that other dogs like to do. It's true that with a very small dog you can exercise them more indoors because they don't need as much room to run around, but I'm sure your dog will love the outdoors and taking walks and doing dog stuff.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I wouldn't put any stock in that. They are still dogs and like to do things that other dogs like to do. It's true that with a very small dog you can exercise them more indoors because they don't need as much room to run around, but I'm sure your dog will love the outdoors and taking walks and doing dog stuff.


Yea agreed. Even if not for exercise, just for getting out and seeing/smelling new things for the mental stimulation. 

Never taking your dog outside your house/property is a good way to create a fearful dog.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Yea agreed. Even if not for exercise, just for getting out and seeing/smelling new things for the mental stimulation.
> 
> Never taking your dog outside your house/property is a good way to create a fearful dog.


this breed doesn't do well in the snow and "winter is coming" points if you can guess why i quoted that haha

So outside walks will be limited to when there's just a powder coat on the ground and not a lot of wind otherwise it's just going to be let out to go potty preferably I'd like him to just go right on my balcony during the winter time but when i stand with him out there he's a nervous wreak. which is strange because it's outside like any other thing.

i was reading that I may have to get him a little sweater to wear. because even now he shivers when we go outside in the 50 degree morning weather.

perhaps he'll be more insulated when his adult coat grows in.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

keysmachine said:


> this breed doesn't do well in the snow and "winter is coming" points if you can guess why i quoted that haha
> 
> So outside walks will be limited to when there's just a powder coat on the ground and not a lot of wind otherwise it's just going to be let out to go potty preferably I'd like him to just go right on my balcony during the winter time but when i stand with him out there he's a nervous wreak. which is strange because it's outside like any other thing.
> 
> ...


He may still enjoy playing in the snow! Lots of little dogs are quite tough. He might need a coat, maybe even boots, but he might surprise you. Poms are spitz dogs with quite a lot of coat.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> He may still enjoy playing in the snow! Lots of little dogs are quite tough. He might need a coat, maybe even boots, but he might surprise you. Poms are spitz dogs with quite a lot of coat.


This is what he looks like. I don't have a recent picture of him on my phone to show you. i'll get one soon but he looks like this only with floppy ears. Some Pomchi's don't get pointy ears and some do but sometimes a few of them, their ears will point as they get older.

So he's not a fluffy as a Pomeranian and more short haired like a Chihuahua


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just let him decide if he likes it or not. 

Dogs typically feed off of us, if you go outside and make a big deal about how wonderful this snow is and how fun it is, he'll probably think it's wonderful and fun too. 

Agree with using proper gear (coat and boots if required) but don't make up his mind for him before he's even tried it!


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

keysmachine said:


> So I've had my puppy for 9 days now. he still follows me around the house a little bit but now will go play on his own and wander around on his own.
> 
> *I trust him not to pee anymore/poop in the house, so while i still pay attention to him I don't have an eagle eye on him anymore.*
> 
> ...


The bolded concerns me the most. You have been lucky up until now. Expect a puppy to get more comfortable, active and confident and to forget not to potty indoors. Don't let up now. Wait a few more months or you might run into a biiig setback. 

The crying is normal. My BC pup cried for 20-30 minutes every time I crated her for about a full month. Play some extra crate games. Put a frozen kong with peanut butter in every time you put the puppy away. 

I don't have issues with crating an older dog for 7-9 hours if needed, but if you can avoid it with a puppy.. they need that break especially.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> The bolded concerns me the most. You have been lucky up until now. Expect a puppy to get more comfortable, active and confident and to forget not to potty indoors. Don't let up now. Wait a few more months or you might run into a biiig setback.
> 
> The crying is normal. My BC pup cried for 20-30 minutes every time I crated her for about a full month. Play some extra crate games. Put a frozen kong with peanut butter in every time you put the puppy away.
> 
> I don't have issues with crating an older dog for 7-9 hours if needed, but if you can avoid it with a puppy.. they need that break especially.


he's a little guy and i noticed when he gave me his paw it was wet i couldn't find a pee spot anywhere then i pushed the couch away and there it was haha.. 

he's like ooo a new place! I watch him closer after that incident. but not an eagle eye i'll just watch for his signs and then clap my hands and snap him out of it then give him a toy to mess around with and he's good for an hour or so.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

keysmachine said:


> he's a little guy and i noticed when he gave me his paw it was wet i couldn't find a pee spot anywhere then i pushed the couch away and there it was haha..
> 
> he's like ooo a new place! I watch him closer after that incident. but not an eagle eye *i'll just watch for his signs and then clap my hands and snap him out of it then give him a toy to mess around with and he's good for an hour or so*.


If your puppy is showing signs he needs to go, he should be taken outside. In all likelihood, he's not good for an hour or so, he's finding someplace to go in the house while you're not watching.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

keysmachine said:


> he's a little guy and i noticed when he gave me his paw it was wet i couldn't find a pee spot anywhere then i pushed the couch away and there it was haha..
> 
> he's like ooo a new place! I watch him closer after that incident. but not an eagle eye *i'll just watch for his signs and then clap my hands and snap him out of it then give him a toy to mess around with and he's good for an hour or so.*


You've said a few things in this thread that make me concerned that you own a puppy, frankly. 

When he needs to go outside, he needs to go outside. That means you get up, toss a coat on and go. Even if he was just outside five minutes before that. You're going to end up with a small dog who thinks it's okay to poop and pee in your house if you ignore his need to go to the bathroom and expect him to hold it for another hour.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> I wouldn't put any stock in that. They are still dogs and like to do things that other dogs like to do. It's true that with a very small dog you can exercise them more indoors because they don't need as much room to run around, but I'm sure your dog will love the outdoors and taking walks and doing dog stuff.


I agree. This is JMO but I think some dog owners of little dogs make their dogs into ones who don't want to go outside. I know people who claim their little dog can't go outside & potty in rain/snow/cold. I know someone in Northern Minnesota with littles who trained all hers to potty outside, they learn to go quickly. Treat littles like what they are: dogs.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

keysmachine said:


> this breed doesn't do well in the snow and "winter is coming" points if you can guess why i quoted that haha
> 
> So outside walks will be limited to when there's just a powder coat on the ground and not a lot of wind otherwise it's just going to be let out to go potty preferably I'd like him to just go right on my balcony during the winter time but when i stand with him out there he's a nervous wreak. which is strange because it's outside like any other thing.
> 
> ...


There is no reason your dog can't go out in the snow. Shovel a path, train him to potty & go back in. Maybe it's just me but I don't understand the mentality.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I've never met a dog that didn't like being in the snow if it was given the opportunity to enjoy it. I've also never met a puppy that could hold it for an entire hour at such a young age. You should be setting a timer to take it outside every 20 to 30 minutes, sometimes less, especially with a tiny dog with a tiny bladder. I think you need to do some serious research about owning a puppy or you're setting yourself and your dog up for failure. Dr. Ian Dunbar has a lot of resources on his website about owning a puppy. I suggest you take a look.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

TSTrainer said:


> I've never met a dog that didn't like being in the snow if it was given the opportunity to enjoy it. I've also never met a puppy that could hold it for an entire hour at such a young age. You should be setting a timer to take it outside every 20 to 30 minutes, sometimes less, especially with a tiny dog with a tiny bladder. I think you need to do some serious research about owning a puppy or you're setting yourself and your dog up for failure. Dr. Ian Dunbar has a lot of resources on his website about owning a puppy. I suggest you take a look.


i'm not understand the criticism against me and my pup.

the dog since i've had it has only had 4 accidents in the house (and it'll be two weeks since he's been with me come monday). his separation anxiety is decreasing. in fact today when i went to work i put him in his crate not a single peep he just went into it layed down and that was that.

he's only had one accident in his crate on top of that (which was my fault, I fed him and gave him water to soon before bedtime), since then I've calculated maliciously his body function. Yes he can hold it for an hour. No i will not let him beg for food. no i do not let him do things that i don't want him to do. Am i strict? yes but he'll understand what is and isn't allowed.

living in a tower apartment does not make climbing down flights of stairs over and over again easy. Yet i do it. I do it once in the morning, again on lunch, again on dinner once more at night and sporadically during the day. and not a single accident. I don't understand where the criticism is coming from outside of the fact that I'm strict and worried about the snow considering he already can't handle the cold as it is right now.

not a single person here can say they take their dog out as soon as they start sniffing around. if that was the case we'd be outside every 5 minutes on the hour every hour.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

There's nothing wrong with being strict, but there is something wrong with having expectations that are too high for any dog, much less an 11 week old. The advice and criticisms you are seeing are coming from experienced dog owners who have been around the block with dog issues. My advice is to listen to us or 6 months from now you'll be wondering where you went wrong.

If your puppy is showing signs that it needs to use the bathroom, it can no longer hold it at all, much less for an hour.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

TSTrainer said:


> There's nothing wrong with being strict, but there is something wrong with having expectations that are too high for any dog, much less an 11 week old. The advice and criticisms you are seeing are coming from experienced dog owners who have been around the block with dog issues. My advice is to listen to us or 6 months from now you'll be wondering where you went wrong.
> 
> If your puppy is showing signs that it needs to use the bathroom, it can no longer hold it at all, much less for an hour.


IF i took that advice there would be literally no way for my body to handle that (and i'm pretty athletic) I live on the 6th floor of a tower. and the elevator is way to slow. the dog sniffs around when he loses interest in whatever it is he was doing. and then he comes back and plops back down in his dog bed.

if i went outside whenever he lost interest we may as well just stay out there all day. because its about every 5 minutes or randomly every 15 minutes. nobody can tell me they are outside with their dog walking around in the elements 12 times an hour.

also i know he can hold it because he can already hold it through the entire night. i sleep a full 7 hours now with no accidents or issues following my schedule to cut off food and water by 6pm

so that could mean two things. the person i rescued the puppy from miscalculated his age and he's actually older than i thought or i'm just really lucky.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

keysmachine said:


> not a single person here can say they take their dog out as soon as they start sniffing around. if that was the case we'd be outside every 5 minutes on the hour every hour.


Yes, that's exactly what I did for both of my puppies. And yes, we did go out every 5min for a while because that's what my second puppy needed or she would have accidents.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I did for both of my puppies. And yes, we did go out every 5min for a while because that's what my second puppy needed or she would have accidents.


but mine doesn't have accidents nor do i need to wake up in the middle of the night anymore. in fact we both sleep through the night easily now which is 7 hours.

if he can hold it for 7 hours he can hold it until after a tv show ends or goes to commercial break. i'm not whipping him into submission and refusing to go outside. but there are limits.

so if what's being said is truly the "norm" then that means the person i rescued him from miscalculated his age and he's actually older than the 10 weeks he said he was at the time. which wouldn't surprise me honestly. the vet said some teeth that normally come in at 12 to 14 weeks are emerging. so he places the age at more than 10 weeks but he said "stranger things have happened"

so either I got supper puppy or the guy lost track at week 10 but in order to sell them quickly he lied about the age by a few weeks.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

keysmachine said:


> but mine doesn't have accidents nor do i need to wake up in the middle of the night anymore. in fact we both sleep through the night easily now which is 7 hours.


So then go out as often as he needs? Nobody said you have to go out every 5 min. I don't know why you assumed that?

But just because a puppy can hold it 7 hours at night does not mean they can hold it anywhere near that long when they are awake during the day. That's the only point I'm trying to make. It's somewhere between 5 min and 7 hours but only you can figure out what the right timing is.

One of my dogs was holding it for an hour at a time by 10 weeks. The other couldn't hold it that long until she was 16 weeks or more. Different dogs are different.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> So then go out as often as he needs? Nobody said you have to go out every 5 min. I don't know why you assumed that?
> 
> But just because a puppy can hold it 7 hours at night does not mean they can hold it anywhere near that long when they are awake during the day. That's the only point I'm trying to make. It's somewhere between 5 min and 7 hours but only you can figure out what the right timing is.
> 
> One of my dogs was holding it for an hour at a time by 10 weeks. The other couldn't hold it that long until she was 16 weeks or more. Different dogs are different.


Titan can hold it for about 9 hours at night, but then needs to go out about every 30-45 minutes when awake (at 13 weeks old). 

I think, from several things that have been said, including the dragging the puppy on the leash when he's afraid, snapping at him and making him hold it for another hour when he needs to pee and wanting to crate an 11 week old puppy for 8 hours at a time so OP can resume a social life... All of these things indicate that OP dove into getting a puppy before getting any education about what puppies actually require.

Buying a tiny puppy when you live on the 6th floor of an apartment building and not thinking "what happens when the puppy needs to go outside" and having a plan for that situation, and then expecting the puppy to hold it for another hour on command is beyond unreasonable.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

How long can you go without peeing when you're asleep? Can you go that long without a bathroom break during the day? It isn't the same thing. Body functions slow down, you stop drinking, and you stop moving which also slows the production of waste. Not comprable.

Your puppy is 11 weeks old. It's not physically developed enough to hold it for that long and I promise you it is going SOMEWHERE when you 'distract her' and she apparently holds it another hour. 

As for 'gets 90% of it's exercise inside.' ...LOL. I have a chi mix. She weighs about 10lbs. She rolls in snow, runs hard, plays agility, is a fetch and frisbee nut, and goes on 5 mile hikes. And swims. I forgot swimming. Could she get by with less than that? Yes. Could she do some of it indoors because small? Yes. But above all she is a DOG and dogs need exercise and training and it doesn't matter if it's a 3lb chi or a 200lb great dane.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

One thing about tiny dogs is they can have accidents and you will never ever notice because the spot is like... quarter sized. 

I crate my dogs while I am at work. Well... I crate Hank and the paps are in an x-pen. Actually will probably switch Mia to her own crate for reasons not related to this post. But for tiny dogs you can pretty easily set up a spacious area. (Can't do that for a dog like Hank who is so athletic and strong. He can jump the x-pen from a standstill and I am pretty sure would quickly figure out how to tear down a gate) But even with Hank his crate is extremely large. He's 26 lbs and the crate is for 60+ lb dogs. I'd suggest doing that or getting an xpen.

Also this may be advice others don't like but potty pads can work for long periods of time with toy dogs. Mia just really can't hold it at all. Never has been able to so she gets a potty pad at one end of her pen. It can make housebreaking harder in some cases but it's an option.

My paps can handle snow but they're not huge fans. They need coats for sure and any deep snow can be hard for them just because of how high it reaches on them.

My papillons have always been pretty active and enjoy the outdoors (except Mia is now really limited with all her health issues). Little dogs can surprise you! It is nice though on rainy days and stuff you can exercise them inside if need be easier than a bigger dog but she will still enjoy walks. When you take her for a walk, use a harness instead of a collar, just fyi.


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## sinisterminister (Oct 18, 2011)

If you've got a balcony or a designated place separate from the main home to do this, you can try using a PetLoo/Dog Grass/Fresh Patch or similar grass product (you can probably even make your own by purchasing a patch of grass and making a reusable container for it) to create an accessible, natural place for your pet to eliminate while simultaneously teaching it an appropriate place to go. Plus, it's biodegradable 

I've seen pee pads used but for the most part, I tend to avoid using them as a designated bathroom. I haven't seen anyone use them with much success in terms of them being an efficient housebreaking tool, but that may also be because people tend to use them with smaller breeds, which tend to take much longer to housetrain anyway.

Just a thought!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The only reason most smaller breeds take longer to housebreak is that they need to go out more frequently - and even more so, much more so, people don't NOTICE when they wander off and pee under the couch, setting up a really, really not good habit. 

There's nothing about them inherently that makes it difficult.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

If I had a dog that small and was in OP's living situation I MIGHT consider either some kind of balcony (if available) potty grass patch, OR litter box training.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> If I had a dog that small and was in OP's living situation I MIGHT consider either some kind of balcony (if available) potty grass patch, OR litter box training.


Agreed. This is the only situation where I would consider using pee pads or something.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Umm I have a Pomeranian x Chi and he goes out 4x a day even as an adult (4 years old now). He also loves his walks, and 6 months of the year is winter here (-20 celsius on average). If he stays inside without a walk (just potty breaks) for more than 2 days he goes crazy from being restless.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> Titan can hold it for about 9 hours at night, but then needs to go out about every 30-45 minutes when awake (at 13 weeks old).
> 
> I think, from several things that have been said, including the dragging the puppy on the leash when he's afraid, snapping at him and making him hold it for another hour when he needs to pee and wanting to crate an 11 week old puppy for 8 hours at a time so OP can resume a social life... All of these things indicate that OP dove into getting a puppy before getting any education about what puppies actually require.
> 
> Buying a tiny puppy when you live on the 6th floor of an apartment building and not thinking "what happens when the puppy needs to go outside" and having a plan for that situation, and then expecting the puppy to hold it for another hour on command is beyond unreasonable.


it's called being inexperienced but wanting to learn.

if criticism is how this forum dishes out learning then fine. go ahead.

I have this image of you having an image of me dragging this dog all through the apartment complex when the reality is if i notice he doesn't want to move i'll pick the little guy up and reassure him he's fine. Since the post i made, and the proper way to deliver criticism was given as far as what other shave done and what i should do. he actually walks pretty good now.

instead of pointing fingers and go "see, see you don't deserve/need/should have a puppy" it would be much more beneficial to tell me what's wrong and then tell me why. insinuating someone that lives in an apartment complex shouldn't get a dog is like telling a single mom to go ahead and give up her kid to an adoption agency because the kid needs a mom and a dad. 

you do understand how ridiculous that sounds right? 

also i do have a plan for that. in fact i've made him comfy with going on the balcony we were doing that last night just to make sure he'd feel comfy if it ever came to that again. So yes i'm prepared for an emergency or a bad blizzard and he can go in the safety and cover of the balcony. SHEESH. 

i understand the passion here. but don't say i'm a bad father and should never have done this when all this is new to me.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

taquitos said:


> Umm I have a Pomeranian x Chi and he goes out 4x a day even as an adult (4 years old now). He also loves his walks, and 6 months of the year is winter here (-20 celsius on average). If he stays inside without a walk (just potty breaks) for more than 2 days he goes crazy from being restless.


again another insinuation.

i stated i READ that they get most of their exercise indoors. I never said that's what i was doing.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> If I had a dog that small and was in OP's living situation I MIGHT consider either some kind of balcony (if available) potty grass patch, OR litter box training.


see that's the thing nobody asked me about if i was doing that.

everybody kept pointing fingers and telling me i don't need to have a puppy and i'm terrible.

i have been training him to go on the balcony it's still outside and he can't see back inside so there's no connection happening that he's going potty inside the house. 

i will use this only when there's a bad blizzard or if its a huge downpour. otherwise i will make the trek down the stairs as i always do.


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## sinisterminister (Oct 18, 2011)

CptJack said:


> The only reason most smaller breeds take longer to housebreak is that they need to go out more frequently - and even more so, much more so, people don't NOTICE when they wander off and pee under the couch, setting up a really, really not good habit.
> 
> There's nothing about them inherently that makes it difficult.


Not sure if this was aimed at me, or if it was just an addendum to what I was saying. What I was trying to get at was that they have smaller bladders than the big guys so even if they know to go outside, and they sometimes simply cannot hold it for a given amount of time (sometimes just a couple of hours), especially before they are fully grown. I don't have that same issue with my bigger dogs, who are able to hold it for longer at an earlier point. To me, that's pretty much as inherent as it gets, but maybe I am just crazy 

Also, for house training tips you should check out this sticky if it hasn't been posted yet: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/88458-enough-potty-threads.html

Although, come to think of it, I'm not sure if housetraining was even the issue at hand, since this thread is about the crate!


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

sinisterminister said:


> Not sure if this was aimed at me, or if it was just an addendum to what I was saying. What I was trying to get at was that they have smaller bladders than the big guys so even if they know to go outside, and they sometimes simply cannot hold it for a given amount of time (sometimes just a couple of hours), especially before they are fully grown. I don't have that same issue with my bigger dogs, who are able to hold it for longer at an earlier point. To me, that's pretty much as inherent as it gets, but maybe I am just crazy
> 
> Also, for house training tips you should check out this sticky if it hasn't been posted yet: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/88458-enough-potty-threads.html
> 
> Although, come to think of it, I'm not sure if housetraining was even the issue at hand, since this thread is about the crate!


lmao it wasn't i was promptly scolded though and reading between the lines told i should give my pup up because i'm not worthy. That i should have studied for months through and through and knew EXACTLY what i needed to do and how to do it. I needed to be Cesear Milian the Dog Whisperer before I got my pup. 

Also back on point with the thread I'm doing something different with crating now that I saw on the Dog Whisperer. Has worked great today. Not a single peep from the lil guy. Basically without saying a word or making a sound i don't leave the crate until his anxious energy is gone and he lays down on his own then i wait a little bit more after that and leave and he's fine. 

well i wouldn't say not a peep. He did yap for maybe 1 minute but then calmed down quickly and went to sleep.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

keysmachine said:


> it's called being inexperienced but wanting to learn.
> 
> if criticism is how this forum dishes out learning then fine. go ahead.
> 
> ...


I don't think you're a bad owner, I just think you are very inexperienced and have some studying to do before you go thinking you're puppy is a super genius or anything like that. Everything we've said, you've replied simply reasserting your position.

We are saying your puppy probably can't hold it for another hour once he's showed signs of having to go to the bathroom. We are saying its a safe bet that you should be taking your dog out at least twice an hour if not more. We are saying that the crate thing is normal BUT expecting a puppy to have a bladder of steel at 11 weeks old is extremely naive, as is feeling as though you don't have to have watch your puppy like a hawk. Some dogs shouldn't be left unsupervised until well after puppyhood. You clearly want advice and to learn more, and we are trying to help, but the strong reaction is because you say you try to distract your dog when it is showing bathroom signs so you don't have to take it outside and that you want to leave your 11 week old puppy, a BABY, home in a crate for 8 hours so you can get back to your normal life. Life doesn't go BACK to normal once you commit to a dog. And small dogs live a LONG time so I would get used to it.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Also I wouldn't listen to a single thing Cesar Milan has to say about dog training. I know he seems like he knows his stuff but his methods are dangerous and damaging to a dogs psychological well being. Look into kikopup, zak george, and kristin crestejo on youtube. Ian Dunbar and Victoria Stillwell are great resources of information too.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

keysmachine said:


> again another insinuation.
> 
> i stated i READ that they get most of their exercise indoors. I never said that's what i was doing.


I did not insinuate anything? I wrote MY experience. I did not comment on what you were doing.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I would second the potty patch or the litter box. Also my pup is a year old now and still gets a potty break at about 11 pm or so. Our female can hold it all night til morning, but Lincoln likely won't ever be able to go without a last call.

Also please don't distract him when he is trying to tell you he needs to go, either have a "suck it up buttercup" moment and take the dog out, or make a potty area on your porch, but please don't make him hold it, that is cruel.


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## keysmachine (Oct 11, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I would second the potty patch or the litter box. Also my pup is a year old now and still gets a potty break at about 11 pm or so. Our female can hold it all night til morning, but Lincoln likely won't ever be able to go without a last call.
> 
> Also please don't distract him when he is trying to tell you he needs to go, either have a "suck it up buttercup" moment and take the dog out, or make a potty area on your porch, but please don't make him hold it, that is cruel.


last night, we went out onto the balcony when i notice him sniffing around several times only once did he actually need to go. But i'll comply with what has been said. 

This morning we went on a light jog around the complex. giving a bit of a longer leash to him has done wonders with making him feel comfy walking. and he goes right into sniff/potty mode when i say "hurry" although its not consistent but he'll get it soon enough. I've been reading how to teach your do dog to go on command and i can already see the effects of the training.

mornings are great for socialization lots of people walking by him, cars coming and going. The dump truck scared him a bit but i reassured him it was nothing and he was fine with all the banging.

he no longer yaps in his crate either as long as i camp out near it and wait until he's relaxed before leaving him alone.

now if only i can get him to stop trying to eat EVERYTHING he see's on walks. I've adapted a method of tugging the leash lightly and saying "leave it" takes a couple of times but it seems to be taking hold I just have to be vigilant when he's sniffing the ground trying to eat the world.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes I do the same thing, when my guy starts messing around and not going to the restroom right away I always tell him you better hurry up, how I reinforced that was it he didn't start going right away we went right back inside and he had to wait then when he would tell me again that he had to go we would go out and I would tell him to hurry up and if you didn't would go back inside and I rinsed and repeated that until he got it. He's pretty smart so it did not take him very long, and it seems like it's not going to take your puppy very long either , he seems like a pretty intelligent puppy.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

You should start teaching "leave it" properly inside the house first  There's an easier method that's outlined in the "doggy zen" sticky in the dog training section on this forum.

Another one I like to teach is a positive interruptor. Kikopup has a great video on Youtube on how to teach it.

Good luck!


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