# Chihuahua killed by Husky at dog park yesterday..



## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

I just want to remind everyone to WATCH and pay attention to your dogs at the dog park. Or anywhere really. If you notice your dog is having a bad day and not getting along with anyone (ie: picking on everyone), then get him out of there. If you know your dog is aggressive with other dogs, DON'T TAKE HIM TO THE DOG PARK in the first place! 

Yesterday at my local dog park, there was a Husky that was picking on/snapping at every dog in the park. The owner was told many times and asked to control her dog/get him out of there, but she just kept saying he was fine and was just playing. 

It happened in a split second. A little 6 year old Chihuahua was running around playing with the other dogs and out of no where this Husky runs up, grabs the Chihuahua and bites/mauls/shakes him. The Chihuahua had to be pried out of the Husky's mouth. There was blood everywhere and let's just say it wasn't pretty (the Chi's insides were hanging out). The Chi died on the way to the emergency vet. Among MANY other injuries, his heart had been punctured when the Husky grabbed him. 

No one blames the Husky. He was obviously having a bad day. This is all on the Husky's owner. It's completely her fault for not paying attention to her dog and knowing when to get him out of there. Needless to say, she took off pretty quick after only saying "Great, now we will have vet bills to pay for". Unfortunately though, she disappeared before anyone could get her info and I have a feeling her and her Husky won't be coming back to the park. 

We are a pretty tight nit group at our park. Everyone knows everyone else and their dogs. The little Chihuahua will be sadly missed by all of us AND our dogs! RIP little one!


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

So sad to hear this. You must still be in shock. RIP little one. 

SOB


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## naql (Feb 18, 2012)

That is very sad to hear. Some people are so ignorant.

The dog park isn't split into big and small dog sides?


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

naql said:


> The dog park isn't split into big and small dog sides?


It is. However, the small dog area is so small that no one ever uses it. 

I understand (technically) that if the Chihuahua had of been in the small dog area this wouldn't have happened TO HIM. But I believe it still would have happened, just to a different dog. This particular Husky was aggressive towards ALL dogs, not just the small ones.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Awwwe .... RIP little one. What a horrified owner of that little guy must have been ... and still is ... I am so sorry for them all...

This makes me happy we have no dog parks around here ... it is becoming all too scary about these terrible happenings.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Abbylynn said:


> Awwwe .... RIP little one. What a horrified owner of that little guy must have been ... and still is ... I am so sorry for them all...


The owner was a mess. Everyone was super worried about the Chihuahua but all I wanted to do was hug the owner as she stood there bawling her eyes out. It was a sad sight to see. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.



Abbylynn said:


> This makes me happy we have no dog parks around here ... it is becoming all too scary about these terrible happenings.


I agree. And it's sad because there is great potential there for dog parks to be a TERRIFIC thing for dogs. But the stupid, irresponsible owners ruin it every time. 

I am so thankful that Bentley knows when to back off. If a dog growls at him or even looks at him the wrong way, Bentley will leave it alone and go play with a different dog.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

OMG, how awful for that poor little dog and his owner. I am so sorry. Looking at your pictures just makes me want to cry. They looked like they were having such a great time. Its is sad how things can turn so awful so quickly. As a owner of small dogs, I never go to dog parks anymore. There are too many people who just don't get it. I hope you reported the attack to animal control. It won't help the poor little dog and his owner but it could save another from a similar attack. RIP little guy.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

chipinmom said:


> It is. However, the small dog area is so small that no one ever uses it.
> 
> I understand (technically) that if the Chihuahua had of been in the small dog area this wouldn't have happened TO HIM. But I believe it still would have happened, just to a different dog. This particular Husky was aggressive towards ALL dogs, not just the small ones.


Didn't we just have a thread about this, and one of the posters here was upset about another dog getting rough with her small dog, and when I suggested she use the small dog side, her response was that she didn't want to because there aren't many dogs that use it. I still think it's irresponsible to own a small dog and NOT use the small dog side. I blame the Chih owner in this case equally, not the Husky owner 100%. If the Husky was being aggressive to big dogs, they should have left. But small dogs do NOT belong on a big dog side. They can trigger prey drive in even the nicest dog. And teh little dog will always lose.
Chipinmom- If you want to protect your dog, USE THE SMALL DOG SIDE. It's unfair to large dog owners, and your small dogs to risk their lives by letting them on the big dog side. Do you understand prey drive? A yelp from a small dog, or a small dog running can trigger it in a normally friendly dog.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

spotted nikes said:


> Didn't we just have a thread about this, and one of the posters here was upset about another dog getting rough with her small dog, and when I suggested she use the small dog side, her response was that she didn't want to because there aren't many dogs that use it. I still think it's irresponsible to own a small dog and NOT use the small dog side. I blame the Chih owner in this case, not the Husky owner 100%. If the Husky was being aggressive to big dogs, they should have left. But small dogs do NOT belong on a big dog side. They can trigger prey drive in even the nicest dog. And teh little dog will always lose.



Yes, that thread was mine actually. It's not that _hardly_ anyone uses the small dog section, NO ONE uses it. It's way too small. Actually, I'd say it's such a small area that it wouldn't be safe to have more than a couple dogs in there at once without them getting irritated with eachother.

And I'm sorry, but I don't blame the Chihuahua's owner AT ALL! This was not her fault in any way. That Husky should not have been there in the first place. And I would say the exact same thing if it had of been a little dog attacking a big dog, a little dog attacking another little dog or a big dog attacking another big dog. If you know your dog is aggressive (and believe me, this owner knew), then don't bring him to the park.

Also, I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again. I think it is a WONDERFUL (and smart) idea to condition and socialize your dog with other dogs of ALL sizes. I DO NOT want my dog scared of big dogs ever just because I chose to never let him around them. That being said, you have to watch your dog at all times no matter how big or small he/she is. If your dog is being aggressive, leave. If you notice your dog is getting picked on too much, leave. Little and big dogs CAN and DO play together very well (most of the time). 99% of the time it is the owners ignorance and stupidity that allows any problems to get out of hand.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

chipinmom said:


> Yesterday at my local dog park, there was a Husky that was picking on/snapping at every dog in the park. The owner was told many times and asked to control her dog/get him out of there, but she just kept saying he was fine and was just playing.


At that point, I would have just packed up my dog and gone home - it's not worth the risk.

Definitely a sad situation all around. I feel for those directly affected and those who had to witness it


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

As a husky owner and someone who knows AND understands FULL WELL their prey drive - I'd like to chime in on this and my own experiences.

MOST people do not understand what "prey drive" is. I can't tell you how many people I've actually had to explain what a prey drive is vs the amount of people who already know/understand it. I really like what Spotted Nikes said. In a breed of dog or a dog that is KNOWN for a high prey drive even the most well socialized and nicest dog can in an instant turn simply because it caught sight of a small dog running by. 

The entire situation is incredibly sad and could have very well been avoided by having the Husky removed OR by people using the APPROPRIATE area for their dogs (regardless of size - even a "timeout" for awhile would have worked in the other area). Some people are just oblivious or ignorant or what have you. You cannot hold the husky (or owner) FULLY responsible in this situation - because the chi's owner could have just as well left especially if the Husky's owner was not going to. I think the blame equally falls on BOTH people for not realizing what could have happened. The Husky's owner for not realizing her dog shouldn't have been there (on that day - dogs are entitled to bad days. he might not ALWAYS be that way) and the chi's owner for not using the small dog side and for not removing her dog knowing that this dog is behaving this way.

My Siberian is VERY well socialized with other dogs. Two of her BEST dog friends that she plays very well are much smaller than her (doxie and a mix dog). However - She is NEVER allowed to be at the dog park with smaller dogs. I have and will continue to remove MY dog if there is a small dog owner who thinks that their dog should be in with the big dogs and will not remove their dog (each side is 1.5 acres) if that means Bella only got 15 minutes of park time - then so be it. I will NOT put her or another dog at risk because another owner thinks it is okay to disobey the rules. I will also NEVER put Bella in the small dog side (it is MUCH nicer than the large dog side - the small dog side is fully grassed where the large dog side is dirt). MANY medium and big dog owners will go over to the small dog side because of the grass. I think that is just as wrong as bringing a small dog to the other side.

I feel terrible for what the owner of that little dog is going through. I really do. But I can't justify the blame solely falling on that other dog. Be it a Husky or any other breed.


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## stacey101 (Sep 20, 2010)

I seen a dog get hit ( and lived ) by a car before and I was broken for days! I can't imagin seeing what you saw *hugs*
RIP <3


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Niraya, I completely understand prey drive. And I DID say that it wasn't the Husky's fault. But I think I need to point out _again_ that this Husky wasn't just going after the small dogs. He was going after EVERY dog. Small, big and bigger than him. And not in a playful manner either. 

I understand what spotted nikes is saying. YES, it is our choice to bring our smaller dogs into the all-dog area (it is not called big dog area here. It is meant for all WELL BEHAVED dogs of all sizes). And because of that choice, we need to be prepared that ANYTHING can happen. BUT! That doesn't excuse someone allowing their dog aggressive dog (no matter the breed or size) to remain in the park when it is continuously attacking other dogs. 

And the Chihuahua's owner had no way of knowing this was going to happen. The Husky was off on the other side of the park then all of a sudden just came out of nowhere and grabbed her dog. There was no time to do anything.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> Niraya, I completely understand prey drive. And I DID say that it wasn't the Husky's fault. But I think I need to point out _again_ that this Husky wasn't just going after the small dogs. He was going after EVERY dog. Small, big and bigger than him. And not in a playful manner either.
> 
> I understand what spotted nikes is saying. YES, it is our choice to bring our smaller dogs into the all-dog area (it is not called big dog area here. It is meant for all WELL BEHAVED dogs of all sizes). And because of that choice, we need to be prepared that ANYTHING can happen. BUT! That doesn't excuse someone allowing their dog aggressive dog (no matter the breed or size) to remain in the park with other dogs.
> 
> And the Chihuahua's owner had no way of knowing this was going to happen. The Husky was off on the other side of the park then all of a sudden just came out of nowhere and grabbed her dog. There was no time to do anything.


I understand what you were getting at. What I am saying though is that there was SEVERAL steps that ANY person could have taken to avoid it. Yes - as I said the owner of the Husky shouldn't have had her dog there but with other people KNOWING that this dog is not playing nicely with ANY dog of ANY size - is reason enough to remove your own dog for THEIR safety. Do you see what I mean? Yes the other dog shouldn't be there, but it was. The owner wasn't doing anything about it so the OTHER owners should have done something for their dogs regardless of it being "right" for them or not. I'm not making an excuse for an aggressive dog being there - but if there IS one there you can't hold the other owner (who is obviously doing nothing) to the same standards that you hold yourself and go "well, hopefully nothing will happen." you know?

And that is the thing with prey drive. You will NEVER know when it will happen or when it could happen or what will set it off and there will be NO time to react. All you can do is watch for the signs that it MIGHT happen. ANYTHING can turn that dog. Bella's prey drive is turned by a leaf blowing in the wind. Do you see what I mean? I've seen Bella all the way across 1.5 acres of the dog park turn on a dime and RUN clear to the other side because she caught a GLIMPSE of a smaller dog walking from the parking lot (which is about another .50 acres away). I manage my dog and her drive VERY well. But I would never expect another owner to do the same for their dog that I do for mine - because it's unrealistic.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

I do understand and agree with what you are saying. And if I had a Chihuahua, especially a miniature 1-2lb Chihuahua like this one was, I would probably never take or trust it in a dog park with larger dogs. I DO take my dog in with the bigger dogs, but he is not necessarily "small" at 20lbs and still growing. He can hold his own and we get out of there usually at the first sign of trouble. The only reason I didn't leave right away yesterday was because Bentley was under the picnic table with his best "dog friend" (a young husky funnily enough). They were so caught up playing with eachother that they weren't even noticing the other dogs and the other dogs weren't noticing them. 

That being said, I guess I'm just more trying to defend the Chi's owner because I feel TERRIBLY bad for her! It was an awful thing to see. An awful situation in general.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

chipinmom said:


> Yes, that thread was mine actually. It's not that _hardly_ anyone uses the small dog section, NO ONE uses it. It's way too small. Actually, I'd say it's such a small area that it wouldn't be safe to have more than a couple dogs in there at once without them getting irritated with eachother.
> 
> And I'm sorry, but I don't blame the Chihuahua's owner AT ALL! This was not her fault in any way. That Husky should not have been there in the first place. And I would say the exact same thing if it had of been a little dog attacking a big dog, a little dog attacking another little dog or a big dog attacking another big dog. If you know your dog is aggressive (and believe me, this owner knew), then don't bring him to the park.
> 
> Also, I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again. I think it is a WONDERFUL (and smart) idea to condition and socialize your dog with other dogs of ALL sizes. I DO NOT want my dog scared of big dogs ever just because I chose to never let him around them. That being said, you have to watch your dog at all times no matter how big or small he/she is. If your dog is being aggressive, leave. If you notice your dog is getting picked on too much, leave. Little and big dogs CAN and DO play together very well (most of the time). 99% of the time it is the owners ignorance and stupidity that allows any problems to get out of hand.


No matter how well big dogs play with little dogs most of the time, prey drive can kick in at any time. It can be caused by a high pitch squeal of a small dog, a small dog running, two larger dogs fighting and another gets excited, etc. If you care about your dog, you will not put a small dog on a big dog side. It is dangerous for the small dog, because if something happens the small dog will ALWAYS lose. It's bad for the big dog because you may end up with an otherwise nice dog that ends up euthed because it is now considered dangerous, when in fact, if the small dogs were on their side, it wouldn't have been.

It doesn't matter if the small dog's owner had a well behaved dog, and the big dog should have been removed. Being right and having a dead dog isn't worth it.

I take my brother's small dog to the dog park all of the time. If there are no small dogs on the small side, we play fetch over there. There is no way in hell I am taking him on the big side, even though he gets along with big dogs. If something happens, he would lose. And if a large dog comes over to the small side, I try to throw him out, so to speak. If he wouldn't leave, I would leave immediately, even if I just got there. Risking the life of a pet that relies on you to keep him safe is irresponsible.

And at your park, if the people with small dogs would start using the small side, then there would be dogs to play with. Your chih friend and your dog "could" have gone to the small side. Even if it is small, you said yourself no one uses it, so you two could have had it to yourselves. Even if it got crowded, a bunch of small dogs couldn't do the amount of damage that one large dog can do to a small dog.

Are you willing to bet your dog's life on all of the dogs at the big dog side being well behaved and having no prey drive?


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Thanks for understanding .

It's all too often that I see the thread "small breed killed at dog park by larger breed" and the entire thread and posts are "omg poor little breed it's all the larger breeds fault!" but no one takes into account things like prey drive. I always keep quiet on those threads and never say anything but as someone who owns a dog with an extremely high drive - I can give insight to that "other side".


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Spotted Nikes, I'm going to stop arguing the small side/big side debate now because honestly, we won't ever agree on all points of it. And it wasn't the point of this thread. The point was no matter how big or small your dog is, or WHERE it is, if it's being aggressive, get it out of there.

This was an incredibly sad incident. Could it have been avoided? Probably. But it happened regardless. If it hadn't of been the Chihuahua, I can guarantee it would have been another dog big or small. Lessons to be learned for everyone I guess.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have said it before and I will say it again..... DOG PARKS ARE A BAD IDEA...

Want your dogs to interact and socialize with other dogs. GREAT.... Set up a group of like minded folks.... 

But mixing a bunch of strange pack driven territorial carnivores together is a not good.... Every dog park in our county and the next county over has had at least one death.....


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

chipinmom said:


> I just want to remind everyone to WATCH and pay attention to your dogs at the dog park. Or anywhere really. If you notice your dog is having a bad day and not getting along with anyone (ie: picking on everyone), then get him out of there. If you know your dog is aggressive with other dogs, DON'T TAKE HIM TO THE DOG PARK in the first place!
> 
> Yesterday at my local dog park, there was a Husky that was picking on/snapping at every dog in the park. The owner was told many times and asked to control her dog/get him out of there, but she just kept saying he was fine and was just playing.
> 
> ...



Irresponsible dog owners make me throw up. It's the owner of the Husky who is clearly at fault here. This is very sad.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I am sad for the Chihuahua and the owners of both dogs (because neither dog did any thing bad here) but the owner of the Chi should have taken her dog and left just as much as the owner of the Husky should have taken their dog and left. If I'm in a setting where another dog is being an a-hole around my dogs, I'm going to leave even if my dogs are being just fine.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> <snip>I still think it's irresponsible to own a small dog and NOT use the small dog side. <snip> But small dogs do NOT belong on a big dog side. They can trigger prey drive in even the nicest dog. And teh little dog will always lose.
> <snip>


I couldn't agree more. My Rottie who sleeps with my son's cat when she's there one day caught the poor cat (who was seriously traumatized after the incident) after the cat 'teased' her and then jumped down from a table right infront of my dog. I guess the cat misjudged the distance and landed a bit too close ... and the dog got her. Mandy let her go right away when she was told, but just the thought what would have happened if no one had seen it scares the living daylight out of me. And the dog doesn't understand what's wrong with the cat now ... they used to be great friends.



Niraya said:


> I understand what you were getting at. What I am saying though is that there was SEVERAL steps that ANY person could have taken to avoid it. Yes - as I said the owner of the Husky shouldn't have had her dog there but with other people KNOWING that this dog is not playing nicely with ANY dog of ANY size - is reason enough to remove your own dog for THEIR safety. Do you see what I mean? Yes the other dog shouldn't be there, but it was. The owner wasn't doing anything about it so the OTHER owners should have done something for their dogs regardless of it being "right" for them or not. I'm not making an excuse for an aggressive dog being there - but if there IS one there you can't hold the other owner (who is obviously doing nothing) to the same standards that you hold yourself and go "well, hopefully nothing will happen." you know?
> 
> And that is the thing with prey drive. You will NEVER know when it will happen or when it could happen or what will set it off and there will be NO time to react. All you can do is watch for the signs that it MIGHT happen. ANYTHING can turn that dog. Bella's prey drive is turned by a leaf blowing in the wind. Do you see what I mean? I've seen Bella all the way across 1.5 acres of the dog park turn on a dime and RUN clear to the other side because she caught a GLIMPSE of a smaller dog walking from the parking lot (which is about another .50 acres away). I manage my dog and her drive VERY well. But I would never expect another owner to do the same for their dog that I do for mine - because it's unrealistic.


Once again ... I couldn't agree more. I don't take my dog to dogparks at all because I don't trust other people to handle their dogs. I can handle my girl. She has a recall I always trust ... but if she is attacked she's not going to turn her back to come to me even if she wants to and she IS a rottweiler and will most likely win a fight unless it's with another working breed. I can't take the risk that she can become dog agressive if she's jumped by another dog, nor can I take the risk that she kills another dog even if it's a mistake because she was attacked and didn't have another choice.
(She has been attacked by other dogs twice and she didn't draw blood either time ... nor has she drawn blood when she's been in squabbles with my son's dobie, which has happened three times. Neither of those dogs were committed to "fight to the death" or in prey mode thought ... and what would happen in that kind of scenario I really don't want to know.)


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

If a large dog was behaving aggressively towards my tiny dog I would be out of there in about a second. It's just never worth the risk. It doesn't matter whose fault it was, the dog is dead either way. Stories like this guarantee that I will NEVER bring my dog to a dog park. The whole thing is just horrifying. D:


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

dustinshaw98 said:


> It's the owner of the Husky who is clearly at fault here.


No. Everything about that is just no.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I am sad for the Chihuahua and the owners of both dogs (because neither dog did any thing bad here) but the owner of the Chi should have taken her dog and left just as much as the owner of the Husky should have taken their dog and left. If I'm in a setting where another dog is being an a-hole around my dogs, I'm going to leave even if my dogs are being just fine.


Agreed completely. There was plenty of opportunity for BOTH owners to prevent this, and instead this horribly sad thing happened.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If I were at a dog park and there was a dog there that was clearly having a bad day and harassing every dog it met, I would pack up my dogs and get the hell out of there faster than you could blink. The husky owner definitely should have removed her dog, especially when asked by multiple people to do so, but the chi's owner also had a responsibility to keep her dog as safe as possible... and she failed him in that regard.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

This is the very reason I will NOT bring my dogs to a dog park. I feel sorry for the owner of the chihuahua. It is very scary to witness such a thing. The screams of the dog will play over and over again in your head. That being said, it is too bad they do not have monitors (people) at these dog parks. This would prevent most of the incidents that I have heard and seen the results of owners who do not understand dog talk. Last month, a dog had to receive 7 stitches after it was attacked by another dog shortly after entering the park. Talking to the owner his dog gets so excited when entering the dog park. When I told him he was partially at fault , the owner was stunned. I told him never to let an excited dog enter the park. This would cause other dogs to go in excitement mode and bad things will happen. 

And was it prey drive? Just because it was a small dog does not mean automatically 'prey drive'. I look at those pictures and I see an intact male dog. Are females in heat allowed at the park? Hormones play a part to just like 'prey drive' in big dogs. I see a dog humping your dog in the last picture. This should not be allowed, especially at a dog park. This can cause problems. 

I have many small dogs and I feel it is my obligation to my small dogs to protect them from certain situations. ie:big dogs running loose, little kids and cars.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

luv mi pets said:


> This is the very reason I will NOT bring my dogs to a dog park. I feel sorry for the owner of the chihuahua. It is very scary to witness such a thing. The screams of the dog will play over and over again in your head. That being said, it is too bad they do not have monitors (people) at these dog parks. This would prevent most of the incidents that I have heard and seen the results of owners who do not understand dog talk. Last month, a dog had to receive 7 stitches after it was attacked by another dog shortly after entering the park. Talking to the owner his dog gets so excited when entering the dog park. When I told him he was partially at fault , the owner was stunned. I told him never to let an excited dog enter the park. This would cause other dogs to go in excitement mode and bad things will happen.
> 
> And was it prey drive? Just because it was a small dog does not mean automatically 'prey drive'. I look at those pictures and I see an intact male dog. Are females in heat allowed at the park? Hormones play a part to just like 'prey drive' in big dogs. I see a dog humping your dog in the last picture. This should not be allowed, especially at a dog park. This can cause problems.
> 
> I have many small dogs and I feel it is my obligation to my small dogs to protect them from certain situations. ie:big dogs running loose, little kids and cars.


The Chihuahua wasn't humping Bentley. It just looks that way because of the timing of the picture and the fact that Bentley was on the move. The Chi and Bentley were laying down with the Chi's head resting on Bentley and just as I snapped the picture Bentley jumped up. 

However, you are right. The Chihuahua did appear to be intact. And this definitely could have contributed to the attack since the Husky was also a male (not sure if Husky was neutered or not).

The rules of our park state no females in heat allowed. But don't mention intact males unfortunately.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Ok You were there and I was not. Strange how pictures look due to angles and timing. 

We just had a very strange event take place at my workplace. 3 dogs came in from a dog attack. 3 different owners. A dog was running loose and jumping fences attacking dogs. He attacked 4 dogs in total. The last yard he entered was the worst. The dog attacked a dachshund and than attacked the lady. The husband tackled the dog to the ground and held him there until AC and police showed up. 
The wife was taken to the hospital in an ambulance. One dog was seen and released that night. The 2nd dog was operated on yesterday and went home. The third dog finally was strong enough to withstand surgery today. He had to have blood transfusions, plasma infusions prior to approval of surgery. It is still touch and go for him. The fourth dog was taken to another clinic. Here you think that your dogs are safe in their own fence yard. 

No matter who is at fault, it still is horrifying to witness an attack. My heart goes out to all those who saw this event.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

How horrible. This is one reason I will never bring Roosevelt (he's small) to the dogpark here, except at 5am when no one is there for some off-leash time.

But... while I get that the chi owner could have protected her dog better, I think that this IS the husky owner's fault. Chipinmom said that the side they were on is the "all-dog" side, not the big dog side. The chihuahua and the husky had equal rights to be there, but the husky owner should have left when her dog began misbehaving.

From the description, this is not about prey drive. But I still want to address the prey drive comments. Niraya and others, if your dog has a high prey drive and is not safe with small dogs, it is _your _responsibility to keep small dogs safe by preventing your dog from accessing them. That means that if you are at the dog park and a small dog shows up, _you _have to leave. You can't just say the onus is on the owner of the small dog to get out of your way.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

begemot said:


> Niraya and others, if your dog has a high prey drive and is not safe with small dogs, it is _your _responsibility to keep small dogs safe by preventing your dog from accessing them. That means that if you are at the dog park and a small dog shows up, _you _have to leave. You can't just say the onus is on the owner of the small dog to get out of your way.


No one claimed it was solely the small dog owners responsibility. Only that if there is a small dog side that is where the small dogs belong. She even said that if a small dog DID come into the large dog side and wouldn't leave she would to prevent possible problems by leaving herself. It may be true that the OP's park has a small dog side and an "all-dog" side but I'd be more likely to believe it's intended as a large dog side but the park users themselves consider it the "all-dog" side and therefore it is.


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## Tennisball (Mar 10, 2012)

It's a shame it had to happen. Both owners are stuck with the realization that one dog is dead and the other one is "potentially" dangerous. I stopped going to the dog park over here because a vast majority of the small dog owners did not stay in the small dog lot. The small dog lot is half as big as the larger side and has benches and lots of shady cover yet insist on joining the big dog side. My dog, in particular, tends to obsess over tiny dogs, so everytime one of them comes in, I have to leave because Felix will harass them to no end. Granted, he's been fine since we got Ellie, but there has been moments where we had to snap him out of it. 
I think both owners are responcible because neither of them made a choice to leave the area. It could have been prevented (IMO) by respecting the park rules and either moving sides or leaving completely. If I had witnessed that, I would have been devastated for days. I don't think my heart could bear to see that.


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## CrazyDogLady (Dec 9, 2011)

OMG! How awful. I can't even imagine what the poor Chi's owner muxt be going through.



chipinmom said:


> "Great, now we will have vet bills to pay for". Unfortunately though, she disappeared before anyone could get her info and I have a feeling her and her Husky won't be coming back to the park.


How self centerd can you be? Make sure to get the word out to any regulars who weren't there at the time. Hopfully this person will eventually come back, when they think that the heat is off. Make sure someone gets their contact info if she ever does show up.



chipinmom said:


> Yes, that thread was mine actually. It's not that _hardly_ anyone uses the small dog section, NO ONE uses it. It's way too small. Actually, I'd say it's such a small area that it wouldn't be safe to have more than a couple dogs in there at once without them getting irritated with eachother.


Who administers the Dog Park? This incident should be brought to their attention and used to support expanding the Small Dog area to a usable size.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

That is so awful! That poor little Chi! This is one of the many reasons I simply refuse to allow Molly to play with larger dogs. I had an argument with the owner of a Pit Bull a few weeks ago because he brought his full grown dog into the small dog side of the DP, where there were lots of little dogs. When I called him on it, he accused me of being prejudiced against Pits. Which is NOT the case. I hadn't even mentioned the dog's breed, only that it was too large. Instead of going to the big dog side, he & his friend basically told me to go "f" myself. Nice. My dog weighs less than 13 lbs. Any big dog playfully broadsiding her would do damage & I'm too much of a mama bear to allow that. However, I don't get into it with people now, I just leave the park. It's not worth it.


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

What a horrible situation... and the fact the Husky owner ran off before anyone could get her information??? I hope they find her!

In saying that... I think the Chi owner was playing Russian Roulette with her dog and something was bound to happen sooner or later. Dog Parks can be rough. Who brings a tiny dog into an area with large animals playing & rough-housing wildly? It was only time before something happened. Trampling, prey drive kicking in.... and bringing a hormone-filled intact dog as well? Not smart.

I stopped going to our local dog park because people wouldn't keep their small dogs on the small dog side. "No one is over there, it's too lonely for Fluffie..." Baloney. Bring your 10 lb Chi-Poo over to the Big Dog side and I guarantee you, my dogs' prey drives will kick in and they'll chase him down and be on him like a monkey on a hambone. If not, he's going to be run over by a pack of 60+ lb. dogs horsing around and have a broken spine. Absolutely ridiculous.

IMHO... It's the husky owner's fault absolutely, and I hope she is found!!!!! I feel badly for the Chi owner--it must have been horrible to witness--but he/she should perhaps be more careful in the park next time... 


Jen

Edited- Agree with poster above, this incident should be used to advocate for a Small Dog Only Area!!!!!


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

chipinmom said:


> No one blames the Husky. He was obviously having a bad day. This is all on the Husky's owner. It's completely her fault for not paying attention to her dog and knowing when to get him out of there.


It's truly horrible that this happened, but this is definitely not, "_all on the Husky's owner_."

Like some others here, I'm not a big fan of dog parks. For most who frequent them, it's a _"so far, so good"_ philosophy.

Tragic as this is, it's nothing new; this kind of incident is played over and over at dog parks everywhere ...
Sooner or later there _will_ be an mishap. It's not a matter of _if _a dog will get hurt, but simply _when_, and _how badly_. 

There are inherent risks involved when you get a group of dogs together. The risks can be minimized, but not eliminated, _if_ you know the other owners and dogs, and _if _the former are "responsible" and latter are well socialized and decently trained (two big "if's")...

Should the owner of the Husky, seeing that her dog was having "a bad day", have removed her dog earlier? Probably.
Should the owner of the Chihuahua, seeing that there was an unstable dog in the park, have removed her little dog earlier? Probably.

When all is said and done, to take your dog to a dog park is to assume the risks - and the risks will always be there. 

JMO.


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

JulieK1967 said:


> That is so awful! That poor little Chi! This is one of the many reasons I simply refuse to allow Molly to play with larger dogs. I had an argument with the owner of a Pit Bull a few weeks ago because he brought his full grown dog into the small dog side of the DP, where there were lots of little dogs. When I called him on it, he accused me of being prejudiced against Pits. Which is NOT the case. I hadn't even mentioned the dog's breed, only that it was too large. Instead of going to the big dog side, he & his friend basically told me to go "f" myself. Nice. My dog weighs less than 13 lbs. Any big dog playfully broadsiding her would do damage & I'm too much of a mama bear to allow that. However, I don't get into it with people now, I just leave the park. It's not worth it.


That is why I quit going to the dog park. It doesn't matter if you are a responsible small dog owner that only goes to the small dog section because people take their big dogs over there too. Even if the large dog section weren't referred to as 'Thunderdome' due to the weekly fights between dogs & owners which resulted in police being called at least once a month, I still wouldn't have gone over to that side. But medium/large dog owners that were scared of how many aggressive, untrained & under socialized dogs were in the large section would then bring their dogs to the small section and put everyone's little dog at risk. There were hardly ever any issues in the small section compared to the large section except when people brought their inappropriately sized dogs into the small section. Some large dog owners would leave when asked but every week there were a few ignorant jerks that would refuse to take their dog to the big dog section and would get an attitude and argue first come/first serve. I finally got sick of arguing with the jerks so quit going and just take my dog on longer on leash walks sometimes with a flexi lead so she can at least have a little more freedom to sniff around.

The only way I'd ever go to a dog park again is if it had 3 sections for small, medium & large dogs and there was a different gate with different lock for each section that you had to buy a key to open so that no one would even be able to take their dog into the wrong section.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

dagwall said:


> No one claimed it was solely the small dog owners responsibility. Only that if there is a small dog side that is where the small dogs belong. She even said that if a small dog DID come into the large dog side and wouldn't leave she would to prevent possible problems by leaving herself. It may be true that the OP's park has a small dog side and an "all-dog" side but I'd be more likely to believe it's intended as a large dog side but the park users themselves consider it the "all-dog" side and therefore it is.


Thank you dagwall .


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

This is so sad, but we often visit a dog park with no separate small dog area and I agree with those who are saying the blame has to be divided between the owners of the husky and the chihuahua. The husky's owner should DEFINITELY have left, especially once other people started telling her she needed to leave. And the chi's owner should ALSO definitely have left once it became clear that the husky was getting aggressive. A small un-neutered dog is a prime target for any dog that's in a bad mood. I don't think spaying/neutering is necessarily right for every dog every time, but if you want to be a regular at a dog park, an intact dog is not a very good candidate for that. Not to say that intact dogs can't go to the dog park! But the owner needs to be extra-aware that the hormones often "trigger" other dogs. It's just a fact. 

At the dog park we go to, I would say 20% of the problems are caused by dumbasses who bring in puppies under the 4-month age limit, 40% by people who bring in high-value treats and toys (against the rules), and 40% by intact dogs and their owners not being sensitive to the problems that may arise. Which is to say, 100% of the problems are caused by owners.


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## Donna5503 (Mar 13, 2009)

As a Husky owner I would never leave my dog around small dogs. My dog is the sweetest dog there is, but he is still an animal. My heart goes out to the owner.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

jenz said:


> Bring your 10 lb Chi-Poo over to the Big Dog side and I guarantee you, my dogs' prey drives will kick in and they'll chase him down and be on him like a monkey on a hambone.





Niraya said:


> And that is the thing with prey drive. You will NEVER know when it will happen or when it could happen or what will set it off and there will be NO time to react. All you can do is watch for the signs that it MIGHT happen. ANYTHING can turn that dog. Bella's prey drive is turned by a leaf blowing in the wind....I've seen Bella all the way across 1.5 acres of the dog park turn on a dime and RUN clear to the other side because she caught a GLIMPSE of a smaller dog walking from the parking lot. I manage my dog and her drive VERY well. But I would never expect another owner to do the same for their dog that I do for mine - because it's unrealistic.





spotted nikes said:


> No matter how well big dogs play with little dogs most of the time, prey drive can kick in at any time. It can be caused by a high pitch squeal of a small dog, a small dog running, two larger dogs fighting and another gets excited, etc....It's bad for the big dog because *you may end up with an otherwise nice dog that ends up euthed because it is now considered dangerous, when in fact, if the small dogs were on their side, it wouldn't have been.*


Umm....yeah, nevermind.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Sloth said:


> Umm....yeah, nevermind.



Sloth, what is that supposed to mean? I think people are saying that responsibility to follow the rules and common dog-owner sense lies on the owners of ALL dogs. Do you disagree?


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

hamandeggs said:


> Sloth, what is that supposed to mean?


thank you! Lol I was confused by that also.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

hamandeggs said:


> Sloth, what is that supposed to mean? <snip>


I too wondered about that ... as I remembered about the time when a tiny Yorkshire terrier came racing barking up a storm towards me. Miss Mandy barked and growled right back and stepped infront of me ... and the stupid little thing attacked her. The Yorkie was hanging from her chest and Mandy looked at me like, "What the heck am I supposed to do with this?" But if the Yorkie had been racing past at just the right angle there's no doubt in my mind that Mandy might have tried to chase it down ... Prey drive is a 'funny' thing. (A blessing when you have a working dog, but quite exhausting to live with too)


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

...Ok, I guess I'm just saying that those don't sound like "nice dogs" to me. They sound like ticking time bombs who shouldn't be at the dog park, period. I don't want to offend any husky owners on here. I just don't get how it's NOT ok to bring a dog-aggressive dog to the dog park. But it IS ok to bring a dog to the dog park who is only aggressive if dogs are of a certain size. 

I get that small dogs/big dogs should be separated, and I do not understand any small dog owners who let their pups play with big dogs who can hurt them accidently, even without prey drive being involved. I just think it's too bad that "prey drive" is dismissed as...I don't know, instinct? - when it sounds so, so dangerous.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Sloth said:


> ...Ok, I guess I'm just saying that those don't sound like "nice dogs" to me. They sound like ticking time bombs who shouldn't be at the dog park, period. I don't want to offend any husky owners on here. I just don't get how it's NOT ok to bring a dog-aggressive dog to the dog park. But it IS ok to bring a dog to the dog park who is only aggressive if dogs are of a certain size.
> 
> That's all.


It is very common that larger dogs can see a small dog as prey in certain situations and therefore most dog parks divide their parks into one for small dogs and one for large dogs. Then people bring their tiny dogs into the big dogs area and wonder why it was attacked by a large dog ... "it was just running and playing" ... I think that's pretty much what we've been trying to say. My girl is absolutely fine, and we often take off leash walks with friends with both small and large dogs, but I make sure to ALWAYS be aware of Mandy's body language, she's far from aggressive, but sometimes her prey drive 'over ride' all her other senses and all that's in her head is the want to chase. It's my job to make sure to stop her before that happens ... my voice actually break the chase too, but that took much longer to achieve. I will not let Mandy loose with dogs I don't know personally ... or rather, when I don't know the owner.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Sloth said:


> ...Ok, I guess I'm just saying that those don't sound like "nice dogs" to me. They sound like ticking time bombs who shouldn't be at the dog park, period. I don't want to offend any husky owners on here. I just don't get how it's NOT ok to bring a dog-aggressive dog to the dog park. But it IS ok to bring a dog to the dog park who is only aggressive if dogs are of a certain size.
> 
> That's all.


No one is saying that...at all. (?) Prey drive =/= aggression AT ALL. Prey driven dogs (most if properly managed) are in fact excellent dogs. To me you're saying "any dog with a prey drive (I'm not sure you entirely understand what that is) is dog aggressive/aggressive with other dogs (size)"

At least that's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong and that's not what you intended.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Sloth said:


> .<snip>I just think it's too bad that "prey drive" is dismissed as...I don't know, instinct? - when it sounds so, so dangerous.



But that is what it is ... instinct. They are DOGS ... not furry little people with morals and ethics like us ... they are DOGS and many breeds have a very high prey drive no matter how sweet they are and cuddle and sleep with the cat ... until the cat fly off right infront of the nose, that's when instinct kicks in.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Sloth said:


> ...Ok, I guess I'm just saying that those don't sound like "nice dogs" to me. They sound like ticking time bombs who shouldn't be at the dog park, period. I don't want to offend any husky owners on here. I just don't get how it's NOT ok to bring a dog-aggressive dog to the dog park. But it IS ok to bring a dog to the dog park who is only aggressive if dogs are of a certain size.
> 
> I get that small dogs/big dogs should be separated, and I do not understand any small dog owners who let their pups play with big dogs who can hurt them accidently, even without prey drive being involved. I just think it's too bad that "prey drive" is dismissed as...I don't know, instinct? - when it sounds so, so dangerous.


Then you don't understand prey drive. We aren't alking about dogs that are dog aggressive. We are talking about dogs that may have always been great with other dogs, large and small. However, something like a small dog that yelps in a certain way,someone uses a squeaky toy, two big dogs start to fight and raises excitement level or a small dog races by them, can trigger an instantaneous reaction that causes the dog to suddenly see it as prey. I am not referring to high prey drive dogs that have shown they will go after all small creatures. I'm talking about big dogs that have never been aggressive to small dogs. This can be triggered in an instant in a dog that has never demonstrated that behavior before. And if you have a small dog there in the big dog side, your small dog can be killed. Most dogs have some prey drive. And any dog can have it triggered by something at some time or another. But you can't normally predict it in dogs that haven't proven they have a high prey drive.

That is what makes taking a small dog into a dog park with large dogs so dangerous. It's easy to say, "my small dog just ignores aggressive dogs", but a large dog in the midst of a prey drive reaction will not just snap at a small dog. They will grab it and try to kill it, and usually succeed, before anyone has a chance to react. If your small dog is in with a big dog that has his prey drive triggered, it is generally too late for you to do anything. That's why people that take their small dogs into a large dog enclosure, or an enclosure that contains large dogs, makes me feel like sticking forks in my eyes, because they are truly risking their dog's life. I don't know how to explain it any better.


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

> ...Ok, I guess I'm just saying that those don't sound like "nice dogs" to me.


Sloth, they're dogs, lol. "Nice" has nothing to do with it.  They have prey drive switches- some breeds trigger more than others. When people are ridiculous enough to bring teeny dogs into the large dog section of a dog park, they're asking for trouble. I mean, my God... these dogs the size of a Guinea Pig.... It's like a chipmunk running around in there with all these working, sporting and hunting breeds. The OP had a dog park that had no size restrictions. Most parks that I've heard of DO have sectioned areas--one for (30+) large dogs, one for small (30-)--in my case. People who have high-prey dogs that could be a liability with the small fries should not (IMHO) take a chance by using these "mixed size" parks. I certainly wouldn't, with my dogs. I've only used Large Dog parks in the past but with people refusing to keep their dogs in the small side--we've stopped going. 

BTW, in terms of high prey dogs not being "nice"--they ARE nice. I promise.  A lot of prey drive--at least for Greyhounds-- is based on movement. My Jack is a therapy dog, visits a nursing home and works with a group of dogs including a 6 lb elderly Chihuahua. He does fine. Now if he was loose and the Chihuahua took off running- yeah, he could to get excited and bolt. He's a hunting dog. He spent his early life training to chase small running (flying) lures. Those of us with high-prey dogs learn to manage them in an effective way so they are put in a position to succeed. I'm sure Niraya and other members with large working/hunting breeds would agree- their dogs are not aggressive, just have switches and *managed properly*, they are wonderful, A+ companions.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

jenz said:


> Sloth, they're dogs, lol. "Nice" has nothing to do with it.  They have prey drive switches- some breeds trigger more than others. When people are ridiculous enough to bring teeny dogs into the large dog section of a dog park, they're asking for trouble. I mean, my God... these dogs the size of a Guinea Pig.... It's like a chipmunk running around in there with all these working, sporting and hunting breeds. The OP had a dog park that had no size restrictions. Most parks that I've heard of DO have sectioned areas--one for (30+) large dogs, one for small (30-)--in my case. People who have high-prey dogs that could be a liability with the small fries should not (IMHO) take a chance by using these "mixed size" parks. I certainly wouldn't, with my dogs. I've only used Large Dog parks in the past but with people refusing to keep their dogs in the small side--we've stopped going.
> 
> BTW, in terms of high prey dogs not being "nice"--they ARE nice. I promise.  A lot of prey drive--at least for Greyhounds-- is based on movement. My Jack is a therapy dog, visits a nursing home and works with a group of dogs including a 6 lb elderly Chihuahua. He does fine. Now if he was loose and the Chihuahua took off running- yeah, he could to get excited and bolt. He's a hunting dog. He spent his early life training to chase small running (flying) lures. Those of us with high-prey dogs learn to manage them in an effective way so they are put in a position to succeed. I'm sure Niraya and other members with large working/hunting breeds would agree- their dogs are not aggressive, just have switches and *managed properly*, they are wonderful, A+ companions.


This is very well said! Bella's is triggered primarily by movement (We don't have many things that yelp/squeal/squeak - no squeakers allowed in the house because of her) and bunnies. Bunnies don't have to move she just "knows". As soon as she sees one she's on high alert and already stalking. Though - she does not try to chase them anymore lol and I'm pretty sure that has something to do with the fact that once she gets 5 feet away from me she's hit the end of the leash and I imagine it's not a fun experience lol.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

Niraya said:


> No one is saying that...at all. (?) Prey drive =/= aggression AT ALL. Prey driven dogs (most if properly managed) are in fact excellent dogs. To me you're saying "any dog with a prey drive (I'm not sure you entirely understand what that is) is dog aggressive/aggressive with other dogs (size)"
> 
> At least that's my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong and that's not what you intended.


I thought "prey drive" was when a dog sees something, and goes after it with the intent of killing it. I don't mean to say that they're "bad, aggressive" dogs, but I am saying that when a dog is sinking its teeth into your small dog, trying to kill it, does it matter if it's aggression or instinct? I think it's a nightmare either way.



spotted nikes said:


> I am not referring to high prey drive dogs that have shown they will go after all small creatures. I'm talking about big dogs that have never been aggressive to small dogs. This can be triggered in an instant in a dog that has never demonstrated that behavior before. And if you have a small dog there in the big dog side, your small dog can be killed. Most dogs have some prey drive. And any dog can have it triggered by something at some time or another. But you can't normally predict it in dogs that haven't proven they have a high prey drive.
> 
> That's why people that take their small dogs into a large dog enclosure, or an enclosure that contains large dogs, makes me feel like sticking forks in my eyes, because they are truly risking their dog's life. I don't know how to explain it any better.


I didn't realize it can happen in dogs that have shown no sign of it. If that's the case, it's hard to place the blame on a big-dog owner if they're unaware their dog has a prey drive, and a small dog is in the big dog enclosure. Especially if their big dog has gotten along fine with small dogs up to that point. That must indeed be really frustrating for responsible large dog owners who are aware of the possible dangers.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Sloth said:


> I didn't realize it can happen in dogs that have shown no sign of it. If that's the case, it's hard to place the blame on a big-dog owner if they're unaware their dog has a prey drive, and a small dog is in the big dog enclosure. Especially if their big dog has gotten along fine with small dogs up to that point. That must indeed be really frustrating for responsible large dog owners who are aware of the possible dangers.


Ye, yes, yes!!! Any dog can suddenly have their prey dog triggered. So if your little dog happens to be in with a large dog that has it triggered, your small dog can be killed. You often don't get a warning. The dog will not just snap at the little dog. In an instant the large dog will grab the small dog and violently try to kill it. And yet just a minute before, the dogs could all have been playing nicely with each other.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Niraya said:


> As a husky owner and someone who knows AND understands FULL WELL their prey drive - I'd like to chime in on this and my own experiences.
> 
> MOST people do not understand what "prey drive" is. I can't tell you how many people I've actually had to explain what a prey drive is vs the amount of people who already know/understand it.


This.

We have no dog parks here and it's both a good and bad thing, I guess. I would love to be able to take Aleu to a dog park because she is so friendly and social, but I would fear for her. After she was grabbed by a boxer I'm always on my guard. I don't think I could ever take Troubles to one though. If another dog -or person- were to inflict harm upon one of my dogs, I think they would have to call authorities on me. I admit -not proudly, but I do- that I would deliver some sort of punishment on the offending parties. So maybe it's best to keep out of it.

I feel for this dog's owner, I really do. I have witnessed an Akita ripping a chihuahua open (my cousin's dog while we were on a camping trip) and it's something I'll never get out of my head. We were all in shambles after that. But he made it. I can't imagine what this owner went through. 

I feel like both owners are responsible for this tragedy, but I think the owner of the aggressive dog is more to blame. 
On the one hand, the owner of the husky CLEARLY knew their dog wasn't in the mood to get along with other dogs -whether or not their dog is a full-time aggressor, I don't know- and they should have removed it. It would be the responsible thing to do. They were putting everyone's dog in danger from that. 
On the other hand, there is a section for small dogs, and whether or not anyone uses it, if you're dog is terribly smaller than most of the other dogs at the park, you need to use it. Chihuahuas have no business playing with dogs much larger than them. 

All the same, I really am sorry this all happened.


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## KaywinnitLee (Jan 1, 2012)

I feel bad for the owner of the chi but IMO she is 50% responsible. She had her dog on the wrong side of the park and she did not remove him from a threatening situation. I don't care for the chi being in tact but that's a whole other issue. To me, that kind of speaks to responsibility at a dog park. However, the husky owner should have removed her dog immediately upon signs of any trouble. Basically, both owners were negligent...I think the husky owner definitely could have handled the aftermath in a more decent way...her response was uncalled for.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Sloth said:


> I thought "prey drive" was when a dog sees something, and goes after it with the intent of killing it. I don't mean to say that they're "bad, aggressive" dogs, but I am saying that when a dog is sinking its teeth into your small dog, trying to kill it, does it matter if it's aggression or instinct? I think it's a nightmare either way.


Buttttttt, dog aggression is generally based on the individual dog and their individual circumstances. Prey drive is etched into breeds, for the most part, arctic breeds especially. 
So, keeping dogs with prey drives out of parks would be basically breed banning rather than calling out individuals.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

Sloth said:


> I thought "prey drive" was when a dog sees something, and goes after it with the intent of killing it. I don't mean to say that they're "bad, aggressive" dogs, but I am saying that when a dog is sinking its teeth into your small dog, trying to kill it, does it matter if it's aggression or instinct? I think it's a nightmare either way.


I agree that it's horrible either way, but I think sometimes it's easy to forget that these are animals with instincts, not teddy bears or throw pillows. Biscuit is a mutt who has never shown an ounce of prey drive, and in fact generally plays nicely with dogs of all sizes, but I still get mighty nervous when I see tiny dogs and puppies in our dog park. I'm not saying they shouldn't be there, since in our park it's not against the rules. All I'm saying is that the owner who brings a small dog into a park full of big dogs is putting their dog at a bit of an extra risk, so he or she has extra responsibilities to protect their dog and to keep an eye on their dog and on the other dogs, and not get an attitude about it. Just like the owner who brings in an intact dog has extra responsibilities. And the owner who (in this case) brought in an intact small dog, against the rules, to a large-dog area. 

About a year ago at my dog park, a small dog was run over accidentally by a large dog (chasing another dog in play) and killed. There was no aggression or prey drive at all, but the small dog still died. It's just a risky situation mixing small and big dogs. I feel very sorry for the OP and the chi's owner, but the fact that they're breaking the rules bringing their dogs in the big-dog area makes me less sympathetic.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

The two signs at our dog park entrances say " Small dogs only - NO LARGE DOGS ALLOWED" and "Large Dogs - Small Dogs enter at their own risk". 

I thnk that makes it clear to the small dog owners that one side may be unsafe for them. 

There doesn't seem to be a specific cut-off between small and large, but a Chihuahua would obviously be a small dog by any definition. I've always consider a "small" dog to be beagle-size or less.


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

I feel like I learned a lot from this thread. It still astounds me when small dog owners let their little pups play with bigger dogs. But now I don't feel that "dogs with prey drive = bad". They can be certified therapy dogs? Working nicely with elderly small dogs? That doesn't sound anything like what I've been picturing when I hear "Dog with prey drive." They sound like they are (or can be) great dogs.

As for the horrible situation the OP posted about, I'm very sorry for you and the chi's owner.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

What, in your mind, does prey drive mean? Your dog is part Yorkie, right (I might be thinking of another dog here)? Do you think she'd catch a mouse if it ran by her? Probably. Small terriers were bred for that. That's prey drive. Just because she's not big enough to kill another dog doesn't make any difference; it's still high prey drive.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Sloth said:


> I feel like I learned a lot from this thread. It still astounds me when small dog owners let their little pups play with bigger dogs. But now I don't feel that "dogs with prey drive = bad". They can be certified therapy dogs? Working nicely with elderly small dogs? That doesn't sound anything like what I've been picturing when I hear "Dog with prey drive." They sound like they are (or can be) great dogs.
> 
> As for the horrible situation the OP posted about, I'm very sorry for you and the chi's owner.


My Siberians live comfortably with small animals - not all of them are "high" prey drive like mine who will go to attention and chase a leaf blowing in the wind like mine. I have two small dogs (4 and 6 pounds) that live with Bella - as long as they don't run. She's very good with them. That's not saying that she would EVER be left unattended with them but she does very well. Her best playmate friend is an 11 pound doxie who can flip my 52 pound Siberian onto her side and hold her there. 

And they most certainly can be therapy dogs!  It's all in the training and the management of your dog.

I thought this might help some with understanding.
http://flyballdogs.com/prey_drive.html (it's kind of old, but I feel it's pretty accurate)


> First of all, let's clarify prey-drive versus chase drive. *A prey driven dog will chase with a great deal of focus on the object it is pursuing and a definite goal of attaining access to its target.* A chase driven dog will also chase but usually not with the same intensity or absolute drive to reach its target as the end goal. Many of you have done chase games with both types of dogs. *The prey driven dog will drive as hard as it can until it reaches you and when it does you or your toy usually gets hit like a ton of bricks.* The chase driven dog can be somewhat frustrating as it will chase you, but not with the drive or intense targeting behavior of the prey driven dog. This dog will often pursue the handler in chase games, but will run on by and not follow through to actually catch the handler. The chase driven dog usually does not exhibit the sudden increased burst of speed that a prey driven dog will when the handler increases their speed. Unfortunately, either tendency can lead to dog chasing and/or aggression (more so in the prey driven dog).
> 
> *All are born with different levels of pre-dispositions towards movement fixation.* The funny thing here is that the dogs with strong prey-drive can potentially be some of the best Flyball dogs. *Dogs very much learn what to fixate on.*


I used this link in another thread when someone asked about different drives and this is an excerpt from that link. It outlines the difference between the "prey" and "chase" drive. 
What I put in bold is prey driven. This is Bella to an exact tee.

I think the bold/underline is great.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There needs to be some understanding on both sides and some responisbility on both sides of this thing. 

First of all I think bringing toy sized dogs to an open dog park is very stupid. I've done it before in the past and looking back on it, it was very dumb. It's not worth it at all. 

Second, if you have a highly prey driven dog, I also think it's a bad idea to bring your dog to an open dog park as well.

I actually just think dog parks are a bad situation waiting to happen but I guess that's beside the point right now. 

Parks don't always hqave small and large dog sides. The ones I've been to- one is fully open, just one area for all dogs. It's really not a safe place imo for any dogs. Too crowded. The other has a small dog side (under 25 lbs) and a larger side that is open to ALL DOGS. Does that make it smart to bring a toy dog to the large side? No, but it also imo makes it a BAD idea to bring a large, highly prey driven dog to that side as well. You have a small dog, you KNOW big dogs could be a potential danger. Don't go. You have a husky or other prey driven dog, you KNOW there could well be a small dog there. It's within the rules for the small dog to be there, so it's really on the larger dog owner if something happens imo. (I still think the small dog owner is not being smart btw) If the small dog owner is breaking the rules and going into the large dog side, it's really on the small dog owner. I'm a bit confused about what the rules are officially at the park in the OP.

Big reason I think dog parks are just not a good idea 99% of the time. Very few dogs really should go to dog parks. Unfortunately a lot of parks are full of dogs that just shouldn't be there. Not being a dog park dog or getting along with all other dogs does not make a dog a bad dog. It just makes a dog park a bad environment for that dog. Even if my two girls weren't so small, they'd be bad candidates for the dog park.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

> And the owner who (in this case) brought in an intact small dog, against the rules, to a large-dog area.


Actually, as I said above, it wasn't against the rules. The rules of our park clearly state (whether they are stupid or not is not the point), "Our park is divided into 3 sections. One small area for small and/or TIMID/SCARED dogs (meaning anyone can say they have a large dog that is supposedly timid and bring it into the small area), One small area for agility training and One large area for ALL DOGS THAT ARE WELL BEHAVED AND CAN GET ALONG". 

Not all dog parks are the same. And yes, I do know that some of the blame (a very minuscule amount IMO) goes on the Chi owner. However, you have to remember that Nacho (the Chihuahua) and all the other dogs (miniature to huge) were playing fantastically before this Husky came in and started problems right from the start. 

So let me ask this. If those of you with Large, prey-driven (or just aggressive) dogs came into a dog park (lets leave the segregated size enclosures out of this for now) where EVERYONE was getting along, and then your dog started causing problems; would you expect everyone else to leave because your dog could be/possibly is/definitely is aggressive or can't handle being around smaller dogs? Because to be honest, this is exactly what it sounds like most of you are saying. IMO, the Husky's owner, obviously knowing how her Husky is, should have left AS SOON as she realized he was having a bad day. 

It's sad that this is still being debated in here. But if we have to do it then so be it. You want my honest opinion? I think there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with having all dogs of all sizes playing together in one area. However, you have to be responsible enough and KNOW YOUR DOG! If you know he can't handle being around small dogs, then don't bring him to the park when you know that there are going to be small and big dogs playing together in one area. There are 24 hours in the day. I'm sure you can find a time where it is safe to bring your dog. Same goes for small dog owners who are too scared to bring their dogs. There is always an off-peak time to bring them. 

So yes, I do still think 99% of the blame belongs on the Husky owner (NOT the Husky, he was just doing what comes natural)


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> So let me ask this. If those of you with Large, prey-driven (or just aggressive) dogs came into a dog park (lets leave the segregated size enclosures out of this for now) where EVERYONE was getting along, and then your dog started causing problems; *would you expect everyone else to leave because your dog could be/possibly is/definitely is aggressive or can't handle being around smaller dogs?* Because to be honest, this is exactly what it sounds like most of you are saying. IMO, the Husky's owner, obviously knowing how her Husky is, should have left AS SOON as she realized he was having a bad day.


You're going to ask this question (bold) to people who are RESPONSIBLE with their dogs? I don't think anyone would ever expect EVERYONE ELSE to leave because of their dog (at least no one sane and responsible). I'll state it again since I guess the first 900 times I wasn't clear maybe? I HAVE and WILL CONTINUE to ALWAYS REMOVE MY dog from ANY situation that I feel is QUESTIONABLE. If I went to the park and saw a smaller dog playing, I'd turn right around and leave. Wouldn't even get out of the car.



chipinmom said:


> So yes, I do still think 99% of the blame belongs on the Husky owner (NOT the Husky, he was just doing what comes natural)


I haven't felt anyone say that most of the blame falls on Nacho's owner. In fact, from what I've gathered from this post the majority of the people here feel that the blame should fall on BOTH parties. One for being an idiot and not understanding her dogs breed but on the other side of the coin KNOWING that this person was NOT going to remove her dog and that, AT THAT MOMENT, he was being aggressive - WHY (???) would you stay in that atmosphere ESPECIALLY with a smaller dog (I'm not including prey drive at all - just a possibly aggressive animal) WHY would you risk YOUR OWN dogs safety? 

I understand that you knew this person and you feel the need to defend them - but as someone who can speak from the other side of the argument...I just don't get it. I guess I'm asking for some help understanding .

(I also don't intend for any of this to sound snappy or angry or anything. I know the capital words can seem that way but I'm not  I'm just trying to grasp this entire thing )


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I think that there is universal agreement that the husky owner acted horribly. Really. 

The digression off of that point enters because all of us feel a profound need to protect our dogs, so we aren't comfortable with the decision to leave a vulnerable dog in a bad environment just because it was the owner's right to do so. Sounds like the chi's owner was fully within her "rights," but that didn't do her dog much good.

I own a very social whippet. She has really good dog skills. Because of her long and lean build, I can't bring her to a dog park where a body-check can shatter something. Dogs shouldn't be body checking if they are playing nicely. However, they will certainly do it anyway. So I can't bring her to the park.

The husky owner is shocking, horrible, stupid, careless, and wrong.

The Chi's owner left her innocent dog in a dangerous situation longer than fate would forgive. While she was within her rights, her dog is dead.

My whippet would break if allowed to play rough. People shouldn't let their dogs play rough. But they will. So my whippet stays home.

Unfortunately, being "right" and being "safe" aren't always complatible.

In the end, no one can protect your dog but you.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

The husky owner should have left, but the Chihuahua owner should have taken caution once she saw the husky " having a bad day".

If you have a small child at the park, and a suspicious creep is around the playground, do you leave with the kid, or wait til she is kidnapped, because after all, the creep shouldn't have been at the park!

I couldn't imagine having any of my super high prey drive dogs at a dog park. Yet a shih tzu happily lives with them. All seven, with no issue. It takes a lot of management. If I see a problem with one of the malinois, you better believe the shih tzu is removed and the problem dog is back through obedience.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

My dog is neither aggressive nor prey-driven, but if she is being a pain in the neck or being overenthusiastically playful with puppies (a favorite activity of hers), we leave. Honestly, we leave even if the person at fault is the jackass who brought in a high-value toy that every dog is obsessing over. 

But if there's an aggressive dog hassling all the other dogs? We still leave! Why would I want to hang around waiting for trouble to happen? Much better to just get the heck out of there. For example, every weekend, this lady comes in with a muzzled shepherd mix (yes, muzzled in the dog park, WTF) and an unhinged border collie. Why she thinks this is a good idea I will never know, but I just leave when they show up now because I know from experience that staying will only cause me to witness unpleasantness. That's why I think the blame rests on the chi owner AND on the husky owner. They both should have gotten out of there. The chi owner too, because that dog was vulnerable and the owner knew it was turning into a bad scene.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think that there is universal agreement that the husky owner acted horribly. Really.
> 
> The digression off of that point enters because all of us feel a profound need to protect our dogs, so we aren't comfortable with the decision to leave a vulnerable dog in a bad environment just because it was the owner's right to do so. Sounds like the chi's owner was fully within her "rights," but that didn't do her dog much good.
> 
> ...


This, 100%, said better than I could.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

chipinmom said:


> Actually, as I said above, it wasn't against the rules. The rules of our park clearly state (whether they are stupid or not is not the point), "Our park is divided into 3 sections. One small area for small and/or TIMID/SCARED dogs (meaning anyone can say they have a large dog that is supposedly timid and bring it into the small area), One small area for agility training and One large area for ALL DOGS THAT ARE WELL BEHAVED AND CAN GET ALONG".


If those are the rules, then that particular dog park is not a good situation for the husky to be in. The chi owner was still not smart in bringing her dog into the open park in my honest opinion, but it was not against the park rules. Blame falls on the husky owner in this case to me. 

But really both sides need to be proactive. This situation is just not a good situation for very small dogs and is not a good situation for highly prey driven dogs. Both dogs could be okay in a dog park that is strictly segregated on size, but in a park like this its too much of a gamble. Regardless, those of us with small dogs need to realize our dogs will always lose in a situation. People with dogs like the husky in the OP need to also realize this could be very dangerous for their dogs as well.


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

> So let me ask this. If those of you with Large, prey-driven (or just aggressive) dogs came into a dog park (lets leave the segregated size enclosures out of this for now) where EVERYONE was getting along, and then your dog started causing problems; would you expect everyone else to leave because your dog could be/possibly is/definitely is aggressive or can't handle being around smaller dogs? Because to be honest, this is exactly what it sounds like most of you are saying. IMO, the Husky's owner, obviously knowing how her Husky is, should have left AS SOON as she realized he was having a bad day.


Oh yes, if we entered the dog park and I saw my dogs were grumpy, not feeling well or not playing nicely--I absolutely would leash them up and leave. I think that's all about good management. When I used to go to the park, I had to do this a few times with Lela, my 35 lb. Beagle/Chow/Mix. She's great with other dogs and loves to wrestle, but when I saw her overwhelming and not playing nicely with some of the more submissive dogs (she actually seemed to enjoy bullying them)-- we leashed up and left. Even when the other owners wouldn't admit their dogs were getting bullied by her ("no it's fine, she's just shy- she has to learn-"-[simultaneously grabbing their cowering dog from under the bench and shoving it at Lela]--)... it's not fair for Lela to do that. Of course dogs are dogs, and don't really understand fair, but still. After a few tries at the park, I realized that Lela seemed to... enjoy?... seeking out the meek guys and would get very over-stimulated and rough-housy with them. I didn't think it was appropriate, so we ceased our Dog Park tryout.

No matter what your dog- high-prey, low-prey, small, large--responsible management is the key. IMHO, the husky owner should have seen his dog was having an off-day and left. The other owners should have seen the dog was being grumpy and asked the owner to leave, or leashed-up and left. Of course hindsight is 20-20. I just hope they find the Husky's owner and that the Chihuahua owner will think carefully about bringing another small, intact dog into a mixed-size dog park.

Jen


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

When I am walking Crystal (9lbs) and Casper (18lbs) in my town, on their leashes according to the law, and we see a person with their big dog running around loose up ahead, we turn around and go down a different street. We have the right to walk on whatever public streets we want, and we're the ones in the right because we're obeying the leash laws, but being right's not going to bring my dogs back to life if a big loose dog kills them. Is this dog park situation exactly the same? No. But the spirit is the same -- as a small-dog owner, you have to learn to deal with the unfairness. If a dog poses a threat to yours, even if you are someplace that your dog has every right to be, you have to just pack up and leave. It's not worth risking your dog's life just because you think the other owner should be the one to go.


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## WillowWoods (Mar 11, 2012)

This story breaks my heart. The dogs at my dog park are pretty good but I'm still on edge. I've heard several stories like these and I'm wondering if I should stop going to these dog parks.

And I agree, that owner should have got away from there as soon as her dog started acting up. I give my deepest sympathy to the owners. They are probably heartbroken.

R.I.P Little fella'


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

the husky should not have been there and the owner of any dog (esp a small dog) needs to be hyper aware of other dogs in the park and remove themselves if there is perceived danger. Ultimately you are responsible for your dog, you cant rely on others to do the right thing.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Keep in mind too that large dogs don't have to attack small dogs to injure them. Pip got bowled over by an exuberant great dane at the dog park once, and if he were 5# instead of 55# he probably would have been seriously injured. 

I despise the layout of most dog parks. I am very fortunate that where I live there are two dog parks nearby that are on substantial wooded acreage with walking trails and are meant to be walked/hiked through, which avoids the "thunderdome" effect from lots of dogs and people congregating in a small area. The type of park that is basically a fenced yard, only bigger, (what I've sometimes heard called "dogs in a box") is just a horrible idea IMO, there's nothing for dogs to do but turn into a mob. I won't go to that style of park anymore at all, and I wish cities or whoever is in charge of them would stop creating them that way. And even our good parks I will only go on weekday mornings or before 8-9 am on the weekends to avoid the majority of people. Pip's the only one of mine who is dog park material, anyway, so it's not like it's the only way to exercise dogs. (Squash might be someday, but he's a bit too full of youthful exuberance yet.)


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> When I am walking Crystal (9lbs) and Casper (18lbs) in my town, on their leashes according to the law, and we see a person with their big dog running around loose up ahead, we turn around and go down a different street. We have the right to walk on whatever public streets we want, and we're the ones in the right because we're obeying the leash laws, but being right's not going to bring my dogs back to life if a big loose dog kills them. Is this dog park situation exactly the same? No. But the spirit is the same -- as a small-dog owner, you have to learn to deal with the unfairness. If a dog poses a threat to yours, even if you are someplace that your dog has every right to be, you have to just pack up and leave. It's not worth risking your dog's life just because you think the other owner should be the one to go.


I completely agree with this. Protecting my small dog is my responsibility. I can be "in the right" until the cows come home but how does that help if my insistence on my "rightness" results in my dog being injured or, god forbid, killed? I'm probably known as a "b" at the dog park but I don't really care about that. My concern is protecting my girl. I feel terribly for the Chi's owner but they do bear responsibility here. That's probably the hardest part for them.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> When I am walking Crystal (9lbs) and Casper (18lbs) in my town, on their leashes according to the law, and we see a person with their big dog running around loose up ahead, we turn around and go down a different street. We have the right to walk on whatever public streets we want, and we're the ones in the right because we're obeying the leash laws, but being right's not going to bring my dogs back to life if a big loose dog kills them. Is this dog park situation exactly the same? No. But the spirit is the same -- as a small-dog owner, you have to learn to deal with the unfairness. If a dog poses a threat to yours, even if you are someplace that your dog has every right to be, you have to just pack up and leave. It's not worth risking your dog's life just because you think the other owner should be the one to go.



Essentially, this. I feel for the dog owner and especially for the dog, but you _both_ should have left at the first signs of danger. Dog park enthusiasts will often argue "It depends on the park", but the fact is no off-leash public dog park is a safe place, because you never know who's walking through the gate, and dogs will always be dogs regardless of how mellow and well behaved they may be in regular situations. A dog park is a completely different atmosphere.

I'd use this as a very sad but important lesson. I know you said you want to socialize your dog with dogs of all sizes, and no one can blame you for that. But is it really worth the risk of your dogs well being and possibly life when there are other ways to do it aside from dog parks?


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## bonesygirl (Mar 2, 2012)

My dog's safety, large or small, is my responsibility. I don't/won't/can't put that on other people.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

I pretty much agree with everything Laurelin said, verbatim.

I think if we're going to assign blame, it has to fall on the owner of the husky. The chihuahua owner was tragically foolish. But the husky owner was _negligent_. There's a difference. And while either party could have prevented this situation, the husky owner is the one who caused it.

The bottom line for me is this: if an area of a dog park allows all size dogs, the owner of a dog with high prey drive should leave if a little guy shows up. Yeah, maybe it feels unfair. But in an all-dog situation, your dog is the one that can pose a danger to others.

We can rail on all we want about how the toy dog owners should know better, but the fact is, many don't. And they do have the right to be there, foolish or otherwise.


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

Willowy said:


> What, in your mind, does prey drive mean? Your dog is part Yorkie, right (I might be thinking of another dog here)? Do you think she'd catch a mouse if it ran by her? Probably. Small terriers were bred for that. That's prey drive. Just because she's not big enough to kill another dog doesn't make any difference; it's still high prey drive.


My 3.5 pound yorkie has a VERY high prey drive. She chases anything smaller than 30 pounds if it runs by her the right way. For example, I was visiting my uncle's farm last summer. He has chickens that provide eggs for his family, and the are allowed to walk free during the day time. There were about ten eating bugs in the grass or something and my yorkie was fine with that. But one of the chickens flapped her wings and flew/jumped like 3 feet over and it ignited something in her. I have NEVER seen her run so fast as when this chicken started running. I am 100% sure that she would have gotten the chicken if it hadn't flown right into my aunts arms, and this chicken was about 5 times her size. She was literally like an inch away from her tail feathers! She also chases squirrels, birds, and bugs. She is usually fine, but rapid movements and tiny creatures really get her attention. Her body gets all tense, very determined to make the kill haha.

I agree with you Willowy, terriers were bred for killing rodents. 
The word terrier comes from the latin word "terra" which means "earth". They are called terriers because they would go underground (into the "earth") and catch the rodent. 

I know they aren't terriers, but don't corgis have a high prey drive since they were bred to hunt badgers? Or is that a different dog I am thinking of?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Corgis are herders, Dachshunds are the badger hunters .


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Its plain to see that the owners of both dogs in this scenario ..were negligent.
as well as the other onlookers that didnt intervene .


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

Right that is what I was thinking of!! Cause doesn't dachs mean "badger" and "hund" means dog or something?

Corgis herd? That seems like it would be so funny looking! What do they herd, just like sheep and stuff?


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Cattle.

Too short


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

WOW! I should give the corgi next door more props for her working back ground, cows are pretty big. Definitely bigger than badgers lol. 

About the incident at the park, I feel very sorry for both owners. They will have a lot of emotions to work through. Hopefully this incident will bring some positive change to the park layout.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

begemot said:


> The bottom line for me is this: if an area of a dog park allows all size dogs, the owner of a dog with high prey drive should leave if a little guy shows up. Yeah, maybe it feels unfair. But in an all-dog situation, your dog is the one that can pose a danger to others.
> 
> We can rail on all we want about how the toy dog owners should know better, but the fact is, many don't. And they do have the right to be there, foolish or otherwise.


The owner of the big dog should probably leave, yes. But if they won't, it's up to the small dog owner to leave -- because if those two dogs get into an altercation, it's the little one that's going to end up dead. Just because the small dog has the right to be in the "all dogs" area, that doesn't give it some kind of magical protection against death by large dog.

And really, you could swing that argument either way. "The big dog should leave because it's the one that could be a danger to others" vs. "the little dog should leave because it's the one who could end up dead." Both are right. And if you're in this situation with your dog and the other person won't leave, it's up to you to leave to protect your dog -- whether it's big or little.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Roloni said:


> as well as the other onlookers that didnt intervene .


uhhh, wut? .-.


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## Mizuno (Jun 9, 2010)

LilasMom said:


> WOW! I should give the corgi next door more props for her working back ground, cows are pretty big.


Too short to be properly kicked. Well at least that's what my friend who has limousin cattle and corgis told me! 

Edited to add, but it didn't show up... it is a sad, unfortunate situation for both dogs... one lost its life, and the other was obviously not properly socialised and has killed another dog. I hope everyone at the DP takes note and is much more careful with their dogs.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

HollowHeaven said:


> uhhh, wut? .-.


Intervene...Thats what you should do when you see pompus peole who think their dogs farts dont smell.
It happens in Dog Parks ..and also on the internet


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

My then 4 month old golden retriever was viciously attacked by a full grown Rott at a dog park...its been 2 years and I still see it vividly in my mind. The particular dog park I was at did not have a separate area for small dogs and at 4 months mine didn't qualify anyway. Sadly in my case there was no warning, we walked in and my puppy walked through the group of dogs and that was it, the next thing I know my dog is yelping and crying and the Rott has his whole head in his mouth. The Rotts owner was a tiny woman and she had no way to control her dog...there had to be about 10 other people there and not one person did anything. I was on the ground holding the Rott's mouth open so it couldn't clamp down and my boyfriend was trying to pull him off, he had all of us in the air and that dog still didn't let go. Finally my boyfriend screamed at the woman and told her that he was going to stab the Rott if she didn't do something. At that moment the Rott released the puppy and continued on like nothing happened. We were lucky and after a huge vet bill that I made them pay my puppy survived and we will never go back to another dog park!! May the chihuahua rest in peace


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

HollowHeaven said:


> <snip>Prey drive is etched into breeds, for the most part, arctic breeds especially.
> So, keeping dogs with prey drives out of parks would be basically breed banning rather than calling out individuals.


Prey drive is an instinct ... that many breeds have ... as we just saw, including terriers.:wink:



trainingjunkie said:


> I think that there is universal agreement that the husky owner acted horribly. Really.
> 
> The digression off of that point enters because all of us feel a profound need to protect our dogs, so we aren't comfortable with the decision to leave a vulnerable dog in a bad environment just because it was the owner's right to do so. Sounds like the chi's owner was fully within her "rights," but that didn't do her dog much good.
> 
> ...


Nicely put! 
Some breeds use body slams as a normal play behavior ... rottweilers for examples. Mine does sometimes, but she mostly played with other breeds when she was little so she only body slams when other dogs do ... but it's a very normal behavior for a rottie and it doesn't harm another rottie, but could be detrimental for a dog like yours.




Crantastic said:


> When I am walking Crystal (9lbs) and Casper (18lbs) in my town, on their leashes according to the law, and we see a person with their big dog running around loose up ahead, we turn around and go down a different street. We have the right to walk on whatever public streets we want, and we're the ones in the right because we're obeying the leash laws, but being right's not going to bring my dogs back to life if a big loose dog kills them. Is this dog park situation exactly the same? No. But the spirit is the same -- as a small-dog owner, you have to learn to deal with the unfairness. If a dog poses a threat to yours, even if you are someplace that your dog has every right to be, you have to just pack up and leave. It's not worth risking your dog's life just because you think the other owner should be the one to go.


I'm fanatic about making sure that my dog doesn't get a bad experience with other dogs. I want a confident and friendly dog ... no one wants a nervous and dog aggressive rottweiler and I do everything I possibly can to make sure that my dog have positive experiences with other dogs and people ... in my mind it's my job as dog owner to protect my dog. So far I've done pretty good. My girl have been jumped seriously by other dogs twice (I don't count the yorkie since Mandy clearly didn't count it herself) once to defend me and once because the other dog was dog agressive. I succeeded to separate them pretty quickly and so far Mandy hasn't been affected adn I'll keep being vigile to do my job as her owner. She can have play dates with other dogs, one or two at the time, but a dog park is out of the question since I dont' know the other dogs or their people. 
Also, different breeds tend to play differently. Sight hounds loves to run, Rottweilers are very vocal and growls like they are killing each other ... it's all in play and another rottie understand ... but not necessarily other breeds.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

This is why we stopped going to dog parks that don't have a dedicated Small Dog area. =/

And this is also why it really angers me when people with big dogs bring them into a Small Dog area (as sometimes happens).


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Pai said:


> people with big dogs bring them into a Small Dog area (as sometimes happens).


This happens at our park. The small dog area has lots of grass so tons of people take their dogs to that side where as the larger dog side is basically all dirt.

When we went over the weekend there must have been easily 20 (or more!) dogs in the small dog side - and quite a few of them were well over the 35 pound limit that is in place for that side.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

But there WAS a SMALL DOG area... so the SMALL dog should not have been in the BIG dog area. That makes me crazy, and NO I don't leave. I tell the small dog owner to read the sign and get out of the large dog area. (It says NO dogs under 25lbs allowed). Just like I tell people with food to read the sign and get out of the park. No food is allowed. If I went in the small dog area, I'd get ripped a new one. Why is the opposite okay? That said, the aggressive husky had no business being there at all.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Foyerhawk said:


> But there WAS a SMALL DOG area... so the SMALL dog should not have been in the BIG dog area. That makes me crazy, and NO I don't leave. I tell the small dog owner to read the sign and get out of the large dog area. (It says NO dogs under 25lbs allowed). Just like I tell people with food to read the sign and get out of the park. No food is allowed. If I went in the small dog area, I'd get ripped a new one. Why is the opposite okay? That said, the aggressive husky had no business being there at all.


AGAIN.. it was not the "large dog area". It was the ALL dog area.


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## Bateman (Mar 24, 2012)

I hate to play devils advocate to a very serious loss but a chihuahua should not by any circumstances have been let loose in any (more so one without a small dog section) dog park. Both owners are to blame for this situation. I'm not unsympathetic but a dog that weighs less than six pounds could have been easily injured regardless of aggression issues.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> AGAIN.. it was not the "large dog area". It was the ALL dog area.


I honestly don't see the difference. You're still allowing your small dog to run around with large dogs.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

I have to say and I don't have anything against huskies(they are beautiful) that they seem to be the most "aggressive" (I use aggressive(loosely) because I don't know what other word describes it) dogs at dog parks and dog beaches. I had a 120 pound black lab that was mounted by two different huskies at two different places. Whenever I did go to the dog park I always watched out for huskies and dobermans, these are the two breeds that seemed to have a higher drive then all the other dogs. I also believe that small dogs get themselves into trouble with their barking and "big dog syndrome" ways. I've had numerous dogs approach my dogs barking and lunging giving the impression they were not friendly, but in reality they were just being them. In situations I always walk away with my dogs if the other dog is showing ANY signs of nervousness, fear, barking, etc. Its just safer and one never knows the tolerance level or what it will take for a normally easy going dog to have enough.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

RCloud said:


> I honestly don't see the difference. You're still allowing your small dog to run around with large dogs.


AND? That's MY choice! This thread is NOT about my dog or the choices I make concerning him. My dog was in no way affected by this or involved in any way. He was nowhere near the Husky at any time. 

The thread was started because I was devastated at what I seen happen. What it has turned into is ridiculous. I'm pretty much done. RIP little one!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

What happened at the dog park is the versus thing. IE: mouse vs. small dog = dog usually the winner, small dog vs. big dog= big dog usually the winner, dog vs. car=car usually the winner. Prey drive, hormones at play whatever took place that day the small dog chances of survival against a big dog was not good. 

After reading this thread, dog parks seem to have the same problems no matter the locale of the park. Since many are run by cities or counties, I am surprised they are still in operation with all these problems. 

The huskies owner should be ashamed of themselves for not sticking around. Their actions were definately not of a RESPONSIBLE dog owner. Maybe a card swipe that shows who is in the park can be used. 


Bouncers need to be hired, especially during the peak times. 

Owners need to remember it is a PRIVILEGE to have a dog park in their city and not a right!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

hast said:


> Nicely put!
> Some breeds use body slams as a normal play behavior ... rottweilers for examples. Mine does sometimes, but she mostly played with other breeds when she was little so she only body slams when other dogs do ... but it's a very normal behavior for a rottie and it doesn't harm another rottie, but could be detrimental for a dog like yours.
> 
> Also, different breeds tend to play differently. Sight hounds loves to run, Rottweilers are very vocal and growls like they are killing each other ... it's all in play and another rottie understand ... but not necessarily other breeds.


In addition to my whippet, I own 2 pit bulls. They are body-checking machines. They play like they're rehearsing a homocide. (Caninocide?) SO, I totally get that body checking is "normal" for many breeds! It's not desireable when they play across breed lines though! My 35 pound staffybull once dropped (by slamming) and 85 pound Gordon Setter who was so confused by all of the action that he took to stomping her with his front feet. This, of course, delighted my staffybull who redoubled her body slamming efforts with such zeal that she had to be removed from the play. To this day, she pees with excitement any time she sees the gordon, who, God bless him, still playbows and stomps at the sight of her. I have been unable to teach my two dogs enough play manners to ever hope that they could group-play. I hold my breath when they play together. One day, they may accidently kill each other. My deepest fear is that they will both die in a mutual head-butting incident.

They don't ever go to dog parks either.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

I hear you ... my rottie girl who loves to play can't ever go to dog parks either. Her mama is WAY too protective:wink: and other dogs doesn't always understand her verbalization. I hear the difference between her "play growl" and her defense growl ... the latter makes my hair stand out ... but many dogs do not. Some can get serious back if they're not solid on body language and those who are might get confused. My dog is my best buddy and I am her 'defender' and protector, she's not going to have a bad experience because I'm not taking proper care with her ... even if that means I have to put much more time and effort into finding play mates and usually do most of the playing myself, not just stand there (chatting to friends or on the phone) and watch.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

chipinmom said:


> AND? That's MY choice! This thread is NOT about my dog or the choices I make concerning him. My dog was in no way affected by this or involved in any way. He was nowhere near the Husky at any time.
> 
> The thread was started because I was devastated at what I seen happen. What it has turned into is ridiculous. I'm pretty much done. RIP little one!


I know you're shaken, but did you think nobody would have opinions about what happened?

I had a similar experience many years ago at a dog park where I had already spent a great deal of time. A very large Siberian (I thought it was a malamute) came out of nowhere, snatched up a miniature dachshund that was walking with our group and started shaking him. We did not see it coming, but the dachshund did because she was on her back when she was picked up.

The dachshunds owner fell or jumped on the Siberian and I snatched up the little dog. It looked to me like the Sibe was thinking about taking the dog away from me and my own dog was about to get involved. But by the time the Siberian's owner showed up, oblivious to what had happened, things were under control. He argued, with some small justification, that the little dog should not have been there. He was so confident in the righteousness of what had happened, that he was still there when the sheriff's deputy arrived. (County property.) The little dog survived, but she - and her owner - lost interest in dog parks.

A few of the best-trained dogs I've ever known have been Siberians and I went away with a much better understanding of why their owners are so strict with them. 

About half the responders to this thread said, if effect, "And that's why I don't go to dog parks." The dog that was with me when that happened was the perfect dog park dog. Highly social and non-confrontational and big-enough that nobody bullied him. Also, that park was huge, so you could generally go to sparsely populated sections.

My current dogs are not good dog park dogs. Molly is pretty skittish and unpredictable and Esther has a very low tolerance for foolishness. A dog who snaps at her big, hound-dog ears or tries to hump her is in for a rude surprise. We have a very large, fenced-in yard and, for variety, we go to the beach on Lake Michigan or a very large, unfenced dog park about seven miles from here that hardly anyone uses. There are five dogs in our family and several friendly neighbor dogs that come over to romp, so there is plenty of contact with canines.

As for the incident that triggered this thread: I wasn't there, so I'm not going to place blame. I think most people would assume, regardless of the size of their dog, that a dog park would be a safe environment. Generally, it seems, the way to find out that it's not always that safe is to have a really horrible experience. I will say that, in the 3,000 hours or so that I spent at that big dog park with my oversize lab, the incident I mentioned was the only serious one I ever witnessed and I heard about maybe 3-4 others. My own experiences were usually much less satisfactory while walking around my own neighborhood.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

This is such a horrible incident, and I feel awful for the Chi and the owner. I personally think that the husky owner was a jerk, and the one most at fault, especially if they were asked to leave. The chi owner probably should have left since the Husky owner didn't, or gone to the small dog side, but taking your dogs to play together anywhere is a calculated risk, which she took and very unfortunately lost. 

I do want to remark on the (understandable) bashing of dog parks though. We don't have one (yet), so I've never been to one, but there is something that keeps springing to mind. This incident could actually have happened anywhere that there is a negligent owner of a larger, prey driven dog. Who knows, the husky owner (for example) sounds like a bit of an idiot, maybe they leave the dog in a poorly secured back yard, it could easily hop a fence and grab a dog someone was walking nearby, or a child for that matter! A card or key system would be great for dog parks, or supervisors/bouncers, but there are a lot of potentially dangerous dogs with negligent owners wandering around everywhere. All I guess I'm saying is that dog parks aren't the only problem place, they just pose a higher chance of problems, making vigilance that much more important for all of the owners.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

My son belongs to a members-only dog park in the Minneapolis area. Honestly, the place is so huge and wooded that you don't encounter a lot of dogs.

I think the highest-risk dog parks are the small, crowded ones where people stand around and visit while the dogs "play." Dogs have vastly different ideas about what constitutes play, so trouble can happen without a true attack.

The park we were going to was huge, had a small dog area that lots of people actually used and separate areas for dogs to run in an open field or to walk the 3/4 mile trail on the other side. We were fans of the trail and generally kept moving in a small group of regulars. The dogs and owners all knew each other. There was rarely anything even close to trouble.

But, as I said, walks around my own neighborhood were much more adventuresome. Dogs would routinely jump a fence, if there was any fence at all, to charge and challenge my big lab. The only one that ever actually got ahold of him was a pug that jumped up and bit him on the butt. Cubby was unlike Esther, though, and he responded with minimal concern and with a lot less violence than he would if a deer-fly bit him. In fact, he looked at me with an expression that I interpreted as, "Can you believe this little dude?"


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## WOLFGIRL (Mar 24, 2012)

Oh my gosh! Now I am going to think twice about taking my dog to the dog park!! I love Huskies but are they always that aggressive?


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

WOLFGIRL said:


> Oh my gosh! Now I am going to think twice about taking my dog to the dog park!! I love Huskies but are they always that aggressive?


Siberians are NOT aggressive -.-!! Prey drive does NOT equal aggression. This is one incident of a Siberian who may just have been having a bad day, or was not properly socialized and didn't understand how to properly play with other dogs, or in the very rare off chance yes he might have been aggressive, he could have been poorly beed and had temperament issues etc. Personally his owner is an idiot and someone who didn't understand her breed. 

Though I will say this - ANYONE who has never actually witnessed Siberian play would most certainly mistake it for aggression or fighting. Their play is VERY rough.

ANY dog of ANY breed can become/be aggressive. Siberians are one of the most FRIENDLY breed of dogs you'll ever meet. It takes someone who knows them and what they are capable of to properly manage and train them. That goes for ANY breed.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

> I love Huskies but are they always that aggressive?


Always? I hope this type of incident is not blown out of porportion with regard to breed here.

I owned a Husky - albeit an Alaskan Husky, not a purebred Malamute or Siberian which I understand are from a different genetic base and therefore might have different drives - and she was FANTASTIC with my friend's Papillons and many other small dogs even when they were tiny puppies. She played with them gently. She was also fantastic with my infants and toddlers and every child she met.

Where she proved to be not trustable, however, was in the open on a chase. This would have to do with instinctual prey drive. I believe this probably could be said of many dogs of many mixes and breeds.

In regards to dog on dog attacks:

- my Husky was almost taken out, at the age of 9, by a Great Pyrenees that she had often played with. We don't know why he turned but he killed a dog the following week so it was not an isolated incident.

- my small spaniels have been attacked by 1. a St. Bernard. The next week this dog killed a Terrier 2. a mutt with Collie/Retriever influences 3. a Rott/pitt mix rescue owned by a friend that is now considered DA because of silent attacks 4. a Labrador 5. a mutt with Lab/Border Collie influences 6. an Alaskan Malamute mix

4 of those attacks were with intent to kill. One was, I believe, overexhuberant herding but the dog left gashes in my girls flank so I'm not sure.

This demonstrates to me that there is not a predictability, by breed, of which dogs will attack and which will not. All of these attacks, bar one, were while walking in my rural area. One was at a dog park.

SOB


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## WOLFGIRL (Mar 24, 2012)

I love Huskies and I don't want to start a fight but I honestly think it was the owner of the chihuahua's fault. If she knew the husky was aggressive and she had a small dog, she should have just left the premises.


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## WOLFGIRL (Mar 24, 2012)

spanielorbust said:


> Always? I hope this type of incident is not blown out of porportion with regard to breed here.
> 
> I owned a Husky - albeit an Alaskan Husky, not a purebred Malamute or Siberian which I understand are from a different genetic base and therefore might have different drives - and she was FANTASTIC with my friend's Papillons and many other small dogs even when they were tiny puppies. She played with them gently. She was also fantastic with my infants and toddlers and every child she met.
> 
> ...


I understand and I LOVE any type of Husky, but I have never owned one but I really want one. I have a smaller breed and I just wanted to make sure. THANK YOU


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

RonE said:


> I know you're shaken, but did you think nobody would have opinions about what happened?


Of course I expected people to have opinions. This IS a dog forum after all. And I understand that. What I DON'T understand is why it all of a sudden turned into ME putting MY dog in danger when this thread had absolutely nothing to do with my dog. No Bentley isn't a large dog, but he's not a small dog either. And I am confident enough in him and the training I have done with him to have him play with dogs of all sizes. While this Husky was in the park, Bentley was no farther than 2 feet from me at any time and didn't interact with the Husky even once. 

I'm not the Chihuahua'a owner. I don't know why she didn't leave and I don't know why she chose to stay. Those were her choices and she may have had valid reason. None of us, even me who was there, knows exactly what was going on in her head at the time. I WILL say that just from being there and seeing the situation, I can GUESS that she didn't think her Chi was in immediate danger. Our park is 4 acres, pretty large. MOST of the time that the Husky was in the park, she had the Chihuahua picked up in her arms. However, when she did finally put him down again, the Husky was way across on the other side of the 4 acre park. Like I said before, the Husky and the attack came out of nowhere. Completely caught off guard.

Will this make me watch things more closely while my dog is there playing? For sure it will, but then again *I* always did. Will this make me stop taking MY dog in with all the other dogs? No.



Niraya said:


> Though I will say this - ANYONE who has never actually witnessed Siberian play would most certainly mistake it for aggression or fighting. Their play is VERY rough


Niraya, I know you are only defending your breed here. And believe me when I say, I LOVE Huskies just as much as anyone else. BUT, this dog was most definitely in attack/aggression mode. No playing from him at all. He was VERY people friendly, just not dog friendly. 



Niraya said:


> ANY dog of ANY breed can become/be aggressive.


THIS! This is truer than anything that has been said so far. Whether in a dog park, walking down the street or in your own yard, an attack can happen at any time, anywhere, by ANY dog. It's the risk we all take everyday no matter WHERE we have our dogs.



Niraya said:


> Siberians are one of the most FRIENDLY breed of dogs you'll ever meet.


I also completely agree with this. They are normally very sweet and loving to all people and dogs. I do believe this was just bad training and a stupid, irresponsible owner.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

Sibes are NOT normally nasty. In fact, they are one of the worst guard dogs!!!!


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

chipinmom said:


> Of course I expected people to have opinions. This IS a dog forum after all. And I understand that. What I DON'T understand is why it all of a sudden turned into ME putting MY dog in danger when this thread had absolutely nothing to do with my dog. No Bentley isn't a large dog, but he's not a small dog either. And I am confident enough in him and the training I have done with him to have him play with dogs of all sizes. While this Husky was in the park, Bentley was no farther than 2 feet from me at any time and didn't interact with the Husky even once.
> 
> I'm not the Chihuahua'a owner. I don't know why she didn't leave and I don't know why she chose to stay. Those were her choices and she may have had valid reason. None of us, even me who was there, knows exactly what was going on in her head at the time. I WILL say that just from being there and seeing the situation, I can GUESS that she didn't think her Chi was in immediate danger. Our park is 4 acres, pretty large. MOST of the time that the Husky was in the park, she had the Chihuahua picked up in her arms. However, when she did finally put him down again, the Husky was way across on the other side of the 4 acre park. Like I said before, the Husky and the attack came out of nowhere. Completely caught off guard.
> 
> .


You DO realize the irony and contradictions in this, don't you? You say your dog plays with all sizes well, and was never more than 2 feet from your side, and didn't interact with the Husky in the first paragraph, yet say in the 2nd paragraph, the Chih was all the way across the park from the Husky, and the attack came out of nowhere, and was completely caught off guard...like you and your dog could have been.

And if you think that owning a well socialized dog, protects him from prey aggression, then you completely miss the point of WHAT prey aggression is. You could own the best socialized dog, and least aggressive dog in the world, but if a large dog's prey aggression is triggered, your dog is toast.

You already had one thread complaining about how a larger dog was picking/body slamming your dog, saw another dog (who also was well socialized) killed before anyone could react, and yet you think that because your dog is socialized, you can keep it safe in the large dog side. I don't think all of the logic in the world will make you comprehend the danger you are putting him in. But it's your choice what you decide to do. But you are burying your head in the sand, by not acknowledging the danger, and instead trying to rationalize why it can't happen to your dog.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

The statement on Siberian play was pretty random  I apologize. I get that he wasn't playing - I was just stating that people who don't know the breed and don't see them interact can assume that they're an aggressive breed or that the Siberian is aggressive based on their play style .

I love my Siberians. I have learned TONS and continue to still learn as much as I possibly can about them so that I can help people to better understand them as they are FAR from being just "beautiful" dogs and there is A LOT of work that goes into them. I have, since getting Bella, been devoted to educating people about the breed because there are SO MANY PEOPLE who are very misinformed about Siberians. And there are MANY people out there who solely want a Siberian because they are beautiful and then don't realize that there is more to a dog than being beautiful.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Foyerhawk said:


> Sibes are NOT normally nasty. In fact, they are one of the worst guard dogs!!!!


I'm not quite sure I understand this wording/line of thinking? A nasty dog doesn't make a good guard dog either. It makes a great liability though. O.O


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Spotted Nikes, AGAIN, you are pointing out my supposed mistakes with my dog when that isn't what this thread is about at all. My dog was not in danger or involved at all. And YES, I do know that for certain. I do not tell you what to do with your dog, so please don't tell me what to do with mine. I didn't ask for the advice. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, I don't intend it to be, but it's true. 

Taking my dog COMPLETELY out of the equation would not change the outcome one little bit. It was a very unfortunate accident between the _Husky_ and the _Chihuahua_. And THAT'S what this thread is about. Debate whether or not the two owners were in the wrong or right all you want. But please keep MY dog and MY decisions out of it.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

I don't think Nike is trying to take a stab at you or tell you what to do with your dog or even particularly turning the thread around and making it about your decision or what have you. I think they're just trying to point out that - while it's great to want a very well socialized dog that gets along with all shapes and sizes it is still YOUR dog and simply because YOUR dog is well socialized and gets along with everyone(thing) - OTHER dogs might not be (as proof lies with this terrible incident) and they're telling you of the warnings and situations for which you're (potentially) putting Bentley in and the potential for what CAN happen regardless of how well socialized Bentley is. 

At least that's how I understood it. I don't really find anything wrong with someone giving me possible scenarios that help me to realize that there are things out of MY realm of possibility that I won't think of that could happen. I think that's all that is really going on here - helping you to realize all of the possible scenarios that can/might/and probably will at some point happen. 

Just thought I'd put my take on it. It's not a stab at you or anything.


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I never said nasty dogs make good guard dogs. I said Sibes aren't nasty. Period. And, it also happens to be true that they are not good guard dogs. Sorry for defending a breed that I admire?


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Foyerhawk said:


> I never said nasty dogs make good guard dogs. I said Sibes aren't nasty. Period. And, it also happens to be true that they are not good guard dogs. Sorry for defending a breed that I admire?


You're kind of talking to the wrong person about defending a breed you admire - as I own a Siberian Husky and they are MY breed of choice. ( I thought this was kind of obvious lol)

I said that I didn't understand your wording - as the way I took what you said as a nasty dog makes a good guard dog. That's just how -I- understood it to read. This is the internet and things can be misunderstood. So I apologize.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

WOLFGIRL said:


> I love Huskies and I don't want to start a fight but I honestly think it was the owner of the chihuahua's fault. If she knew the husky was aggressive and she had a small dog, she should have just left the premises.


How? Yes the chi owner could have prevented it but it wasn't her 'fault'. It was the owner of the husky's fault. But as I said before being in the right TECHNICALLY doesn't make your small dog any less dead. It sucks that people can't keep control of their dogs but as a small dog owner we have to be more observant than most.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

chipinmom said:


> Spotted Nikes, AGAIN, you are pointing out my supposed mistakes with my dog when that isn't what this thread is about at all. My dog was not in danger or involved at all. And YES, I do know that for certain. I do not tell you what to do with your dog, so please don't tell me what to do with mine. I didn't ask for the advice. I'm sorry if that sounds rude, I don't intend it to be, but it's true.
> 
> Taking my dog COMPLETELY out of the equation would not change the outcome one little bit. It was a very unfortunate accident between the _Husky_ and the _Chihuahua_. And THAT'S what this thread is about. Debate whether or not the two owners were in the wrong or right all you want. But please keep MY dog and MY decisions out of it.


I'm probably reiterating things already sad, but:

People who allow their dogs to frequent dog parks make the decision to accept both the risks, and enjoy the benefits thereof. The unfortunate reality is that it's quite possible that one day, _"out of no where this (choose a breed) runs up, grabs *'your'* dog and bites/mauls/shakes him". _ I strongly suspect that, like the unfortunate owner of the Chihuahua, it might all be over before you could even react. 

But your dog is _your _dog. This is your decision to make on behalf of your own dog. And it's not a "mistake," unless and until something happens. 

IMO, incidents at dog parks are very much like gambling at a casino for the overwhelming majority of people. It's not really "gambling". It's an absolute _sure and certain thing _that, if you stay long enough, _sooner or later you're going to lose_.

And you're very correct. All this does not change the result of that "unfortunate accident". My sympathies go out to all involved!!! 

Perhaps the worst part of this, is that this is not the first, nor will it be the last post on this forum regarding a tragic mishap at a dog park. Sad!


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Niraya said:


> Though I will say this - ANYONE who has never actually witnessed Siberian play would most certainly mistake it for aggression or fighting. Their play is VERY rough.


I'll raise my hand to this. 
Aleu is very well socialized and can easily get along with dogs of all sizes, but she scares a lot of the dogs she plays with, even dogs bigger than her. Even Diesel, who is a VERY tough and tolerant dog, looks at me like 'please, get this thing off me' whenever they play. The only other dog she's been able to have a decent play with is another Sibe. 


I think it's safe to say, that the owner of the husky was irresponsible and should have been made to leave. It can't fall on the dog or anyone else who was keeping their dog in check.


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## Juniper's mom (Jun 13, 2009)

prntmkr said:


> IMO, incidents at dog parks are very much like gambling at a casino for the overwhelming majority of people. It's not really "gambling". It's an absolute _sure and certain thing _that, if you stay long enough, _sooner or later you're going to lose_.


Long thread, but I couldn't resist my two cent ;-). 

Listen there are plenty of dog park experiences that are right in the middle. We go to a "dog park" every single day, have done for three years (it's really a 500 acre public park with off leash hours before 9). It's 100% use at your own risk, and I am fully aware that my dog's safety is 100% my responsibility. On a weekend day, there are probably 500 some odd dogs at least out there. Have there been fights and issues? For sure. Does that mean that going there is like playing Russian roulette? I don't think so. You learn to read the situation and your dog's body language. If you use common sense, there's no reason that they can't get lots of fabulous exercise and socialization out of the experience. June's time in the dog park is one of the reasons that I trust her with other, bigger dogs. She's friendly but its given her extra confidence in groups of dogs, and I think possibly also better "street smarts." 

The OP's experience is tragic, and I wouldn't assign blame per se. But I do think that small dog owners do face extra dangers. I'll tell you, one day I was walking around the dog park and I noticed hawks circling. With my 40-pound dog, I had no worries, but with a chi? I would have gotten right out of there. Not safe. 

Further, this got me to thinking about a recent dog park altercation I had with a friend. My friend has a really driven cattle dog, that she is working with rigorously with a trainer to help rechannel some of his instinct to run up to other dogs and bark and them and try to herd them. As we were walking out of the park, she had her dog on leash and another guy's poorly trained puppy ran up and started taunting her guy. This provoked the herding drive of the cattle and he started barking a ton. The other dog's owner stubbornly refused to try and call his dog back, I guess because it was a "free country" or whatever. 

The polite thing to do would be to call your dog back, but beyond that, it's just a part of keeping your dog safe, in removing it from a situation that's getting testy. I think it's really important for all dog owners to err very much on the side of caution. Their dogs truly do not know any better than their instincts or their drives, and it's our jobs to set the boundaries.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

A tragic incident, for sure. I am not sure assigning 'blame' is up to anyone to decide. My opinion is that both owners were negligent, but to what extent is unclear as I was not there. 

I will put my two cents in about dog parks. I really don't think all dog parks are created equal; the 'dog parks' (they are called off-leash training areas) that I visit in CO are huge open spaces with rivers/ponds, several miles of trails and fields. The dog parks in NH, and the ones in Denver, are more 'thunderdome' than anything. I have never witnessed or been part of an incident at the open style parks. 

I have been witness and part of several incidents at the smaller thunderdome parks. This is why I will not visit these types of parks anymore. It is not just small dogs who are in danger, it is ALL dogs. Like many have stated, it is not if an incident will happen, its when. 

My 95 pound dog was attacked 'out of no where' at a dog park. The German Shepherd, who we saw at the park regularly and were familiar with, honed in on Ozzie (still don't know why, really), and attacked him. Ozzie needed a drain put in his side, as well as stitches. They weren't playing, or even looking at each other. They were far away from each other and nothing like this had ever happened before; until it did. 

There was even an incident where a Chi attacked Ozzie without provocation, and the Chi ended up in his mouth. He released immediately, and the Chi was fine (no blood drawn), but if I hadn't been standing right there, I don't know. That is not a chance I am willing to take, and it just reaffirms in my mind that unfamiliar small dogs and big dogs should not be allowed to 'socialize' in an environment such as a dog park. In my situation, it was known the Chi was aggressive (heard the owner say so, and the dog was muzzled) and we were on our way out when it happened. However, if Oz had hurt or killed the dog, it would still be our fault in the eyes of the general public and the law (I think?). 

It is the responsibility of the owner to keep the general public and his/her dog safe. Both owners were negligent.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> AND? That's MY choice! This thread is NOT about my dog or the choices I make concerning him. My dog was in no way affected by this or involved in any way. He was nowhere near the Husky at any time.


But it could have been your dog and very well might be in the future if you continue to make the same foolish mistakes the Chihuahua's owner did. It's tragic, but that's the risk she took by bringing her small dog in there and choosing to stick around when a very obviously large aggressive dog was running around. It IS your choice, but remember the choices you make have a direct impact on your dog's safety and well being.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Niraya said:


> I don't think Nike is trying to take a stab at you or tell you what to do with your dog or even particularly turning the thread around and making it about your decision or what have you. I think they're just trying to point out that - while it's great to want a very well socialized dog that gets along with all shapes and sizes it is still YOUR dog and simply because YOUR dog is well socialized and gets along with everyone(thing) - OTHER dogs might not be (as proof lies with this terrible incident) and they're telling you of the warnings and situations for which you're (potentially) putting Bentley in and the potential for what CAN happen regardless of how well socialized Bentley is.
> 
> At least that's how I understood it. I don't really find anything wrong with someone giving me possible scenarios that help me to realize that there are things out of MY realm of possibility that I won't think of that could happen. I think that's all that is really going on here - helping you to realize all of the possible scenarios that can/might/and probably will at some point happen.
> 
> Just thought I'd put my take on it. It's not a stab at you or anything.


That's it exactly. I'm truly not trying to upset the OP, but make her understand that it has nothing to do with how socialized her dog is, or how vigilant she is, or whether the dog stays close to her. It can happen at any time, and is lightening fast.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Responsible people that have dogs.. and common sense.. never seem to have these problems.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Roloni said:


> Responsible people that have dogs.. and common sense.. never seem to have these problems.


It's a fallacy to believe that if you're just 'responsible enough' that accidents will never happen to you or your dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Pai said:


> It's a fallacy to believe that if you're just 'responsible enough' that accidents will never happen to you or your dogs.


Agreed. I never take my two to dog parks (they don't play nicely), always have them on a leash unless they're inside the house or in a fence, and take a different route when I spot a loose dog up ahead. But we have been rushed by loose dogs a number of times -- just a few days ago a doodle of some sort broke its tie-out and came out onto the sidewalk to see my dogs. Luckily, it wasn't intending to attack mine... but it could have been. There's no way to keep your dogs 100% safe.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

First, I'm sorry this dog died. Second, IMO, both owners are at fault. The husky's owners should have stopped brining him there. Someone should have complained to whomever the powers that be are at this park. If the owner kept bringing the dog, "you all" should have left when they arrived, since you said it was bound to happen & if it wasn't the Chi, it would have been another dog. I know, one bad apple and all that but because this owner doesn't have a clue about her dog & the breed, a dog died because no one did anything. It could have been your dog. 
The chi's owner is, IMO, just as responsible. Actually, scratch that, she may be more responsible because she placed her dog in an area she shouldn't have been in. Her dog would still be alive today if she was in the dog park for her size but because it's too small or no other dogs go there, she's dead. It's very sad and I'm sorry to be blunt but this is my opinion.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Pai said:


> It's a fallacy to believe that if you're just 'responsible enough' that accidents will never happen to you or your dogs.


No , Its actually just a fact.. A responsible dog owner with common sense ..would see that their Huskie or Chihuahua did not play nicely together ...
That was not an accident, that was negligence.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Roloni said:


> No , Its actually just a fact.. A responsible dog owner with common sense ..would see that their Huskie or Chihuahua did not play nicely together ...
> That was not an accident, that was negligence.


I think you misunderstood the post...


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Roloni said:


> No , Its actually just a fact.. A responsible dog owner with common sense ..would see that their Huskie or Chihuahua did not play nicely together ...
> That was not an accident, that was negligence.


What happened can happen so fast, with absolutely no previous interaction between the two dogs, that nobody can really prevent it. I wasn't there. I don't know if this was the case with this incident. I do know it was the case in the incident I related. 

By your logic, good drivers should NEVER be involved in an accident. They should see there is a bad driver out there somewhere and get off the road.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

RonE said:


> What happened can happen so fast, with absolutely no previous interaction between the two dogs, that nobody can really prevent it. I wasn't there. I don't know if this was the case with this incident. I do know it was the case in the incident I related.
> 
> By your logic, good drivers should NEVER be involved in an accident. They should see there is a bad driver out there somewhere and get off the road.


Where is that *like* button again?


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> If you notice your dog is having a bad day and not getting along with anyone (ie: picking on everyone), then get him out of there. If you know your dog is aggressive with other dogs, DON'T TAKE HIM TO THE DOG PARK in the first place!


Yeah....I wasnt there either...
but Im pretty sure the thread is about owner resposibility.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I took the easy way out. Bought a chunk of land, got a few dogs and created my own private dog park. For a change of pace I take them to a forest preserve that at the most I have seen two cars parked there. I have seen only once another person on the trail. When I get back to the car, mine is usually the only one there. My dogs range from a couple 4 pound Chihuahua to a 130 pound Anatolian Shepherd. My dogs are way too important to risk their lives for an hour of play. 

Plus I look at dog parks as a singles parasite pick up bar waiting to come home with my dogs.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

luv mi pets said:


> I took the easy way out. Bought a chunk of land, got a few dogs and created my own private dog park. For a change of pace I take them to a forest preserve that at the most I have seen two cars parked there. I have seen only once another person on the trail. When I get back to the car, mine is usually the only one there. My dogs range from a couple 4 pound Chihuahua to a 130 pound Anatolian Shepherd. My dogs are way too important to risk their lives for an hour of play.
> 
> Plus I look at dog parks as a singles parasite pick up bar waiting to come home with my dogs.


This is what we plan to do next year. We're looking to buy a few acres of land in NM and fence the area in just for our dogs. For now we have my in-law's private property for them to run on.


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## Pepy311 (Jul 19, 2011)

I a over dog parks myself. It's not worth it, and it's not a good place to bring your dog. I think dog parks are more for the owners then for the dogs. My shep had a run in with a GSD today. My dog is 75% GSD and a prue bred GSD went at my dog. My dog exposed her belly was showing she did not want to challenge her. But this GSD went for a aggressive dominate pin on my dog and my dog defended herself. It was not a full on fight but could have been. Where was the owner OUTSIDE OF THE FENCE too FU**** lazy to go in. I should not have gone in I had a bad feeling but I thought since my dog respectful it will be ok. 

No one got hurt but it was not a good way to start the day. Dog parks are a great idea but in reality not a good place to go. I tell new dog owners not to take puppies to dog parks. It's not worth it people need to beware this stuff can and dose happen. Not all dog parks are the same. The bigger the better. 

I feel so bad for the owner of the little dog. Poor thing what an awful thing to happen. So sorry.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I hate hearing people condemn dog parks across the board. I think they can be great, but only under certain circumstances.

There are 6 off-leash "dog parks" in my area. 4 of them are just a bunch of hiking trails where dogs are allowed off leash. Park #5 is a very large (~100 acre?) spans of ball fields with no fences whatsoever. Park #6 is a traditional fully-fenced dog park with separate sides for large/small dogs.

Wanna guess which parks I frequent? Parks 1-5, but I avoid #6 like the plague. Park #5 is a fabulous "dog park" if you ask me: the lack of fences weeds out all the people who won't or can't train their dogs to stick close. The space means that it's easy to get away from bad apples, if needed, and the density of dogs is low. There's also no designated area where owners congregate, which cuts down on chatting and human distractions, so people actually tend to watch their dogs. I've been going to this park for over 3 years and I've never witnessed a dog fight there. It's also a fabulous place to work on training with distractions.


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## Pepy311 (Jul 19, 2011)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I hate hearing people condemn dog parks across the board. I think they can be great, but only under certain circumstances.
> 
> There are 6 off-leash "dog parks" in my area. 4 of them are just a bunch of hiking trails where dogs are allowed off leash. Park #5 is a very large (~100 acre?) spans of ball fields with no fences whatsoever. Park #6 is a traditional fully-fenced dog park with separate sides for large/small dogs.
> 
> Wanna guess which parks I frequent? Parks 1-5, but I avoid #6 like the plague. Park #5 is a fabulous "dog park" if you ask me: the lack of fences weeds out all the people who won't or can't train their dogs to stick close. The space means that it's easy to get away from bad apples, if needed, and the density of dogs is low. There's also no designated area where owners congregate, which cuts down on chatting and human distractions, so people actually tend to watch their dogs. I've been going to this park for over 3 years and I've never witnessed a dog fight there. It's also a fabulous place to work on training with distractions.


The smaller dog park that is fenced you don't go to. That's the type of park "dog park" I have near me. You avoid it that type of park. Well that's the type of park most people think of when they think dog park. Off leash parks are not what I call dog parks they are just dog friendly parks. We have a meadow by our house that is dog friendly park no fence. It's great. You are right no fence dog friendly parks are better because you need a dog under more control. So dog there are going to be a bit better.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Dog parks are always a risk. I put the majority blame on the Chi owner. When you have such a small dog you should be aware of the climate of your surroundings and should not openly or foolishly trust that everyone at the dog park is knowledgeable or has control of their dog. If the husky was being aggressive, though I'm keen to believe he was just overly excited/playful, then I would have scooped up my dog and left. Really though larger dogs can play rough- really rough. When Bones and Halo play someone with little knowledge would likely think they were fighting instead of playing because of how rough they are. A small dog could easily be trampled in that melee. Bad idea all around.


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

Just yesterday I had to leave the dog park (empty when I got there) because some yahoo showed up and INSISTED that his 2 big, rambunctious dogs were fine in the small dog side. When I pointed out the larger big dog side, he just ignored me. When I told him my dog could be seriously injured by his dog just playfully ramming her, he didn't care. Guess who had to leave not 2 minutes after arriving? That's right, me and my 13 lb dog because as "in the right" as I was in that situation, I'd rather have an uninjured dog than stand on my righteousness. I'll never go back to this place again. Fortunately, we're moving in a week & no dog parks in the new town. I'm bummed that I can't let her run around off lead anymore but I'd rather have her safe. That's my top priority.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

This is a very sad, tragic story that could have so easily been prevented 

I think that yes, it sounds like the Sibe wasn't having much fun at the dog park, if he was snapping at every dog that tried to interact. Some owners have a hard time seeing or accepting that their dog doesn't need or want doggy friends. And yes, they should have removed their dog. However, I don't think the incident with the Chi had much to do with the dog being "dog aggressive" or being snarky with the other dogs or that both were intact. Sounds like a classic example of predatory drift to me and that is something that can happen with any dog, any time you have multiple dogs with big size differences running loose together. http://www.alldogsgym.com/content/view/378/

I can't help but think blaming the Husky's owner for the incident is like letting your dog run the neighborhood every day and then blaming the driver when they get hit by a car. Sure, maybe the driver was speeding or could have been more careful but ultimately, you would be the one who allowed your dog to repeatedly be in a dangerous situation. If you take a toy dog to a dog park and turn them loose with a bunch of larger dogs, you are taking a big risk that something bad will eventually happen, either due to predatory drift or just an accident, such as being trampled by running dogs. I know of a person who's Chinese Cresteds trampled their Chi to death outside. The fact that you've always done it and it's always been fine or you've never had a problem yet doesn't mean there isn't a fairly high risk involved. 

It's horrible this had to happen and I'm sure the owner never expected such a thing. And I definitely don't mean to bash them - they certainly have suffered enough watching their dog be killed in this manner. Owning a toy breed dog comes with extra responsibility though. They can't be treated just like a "normal dog" because their size means things that aren't a danger for a "normal dog" could be deadly to them. There's a reason why so many dog parks and daycares have a small dog and large dog separation. And IMO if they don't, they should be considered for dogs 25lbs and over only. For the safety and well being of everyone involved.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Alerondogs said:


> This is a very sad, tragic story that could have so easily been prevented
> 
> I think that yes, it sounds like the Sibe wasn't having much fun at the dog park, if he was snapping at every dog that tried to interact. Some owners have a hard time seeing or accepting that their dog doesn't need or want doggy friends. And yes, they should have removed their dog. However, I don't think the incident with the Chi had much to do with the dog being "dog aggressive" or being snarky with the other dogs or that both were intact. Sounds like a classic example of predatory drift to me and that is something that can happen with any dog, any time you have multiple dogs with big size differences running loose together. http://www.alldogsgym.com/content/view/378/
> 
> ...


Where's the "Like" Button?!!!!


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

There's a thing called prey drive that many people choose to ignore. Even when their sweetpie brings down X number of local cats they still do nothing about it and bring the dog to a dog park unleashed. It's really just common courtesy to scan an area for small dogs and kids before unleashing your untrained, out of control, bored and pent up predatory animal that knows no boundaries. I don't blame small dog owners at all - their dog was not the one that was out of control doing what it wants when it wants. If you have a husky with no recall training and you unleash him you better be 200% sure you know what you're doing.
Oh and these discussions always get breed specific when in fact any large dog with enough prey drive will act the same, labradors can just as easily cause major injuries and kill small animals when out of control.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

SassyCat said:


> <snip>It's really just common courtesy to scan an area for small dogs and kids before unleashing your untrained, out of control, bored and pent up predatory animal that knows no boundaries. <snip>


We only know that the husky seemed to be in a bad mood ... not how well trained it was. Fact is still that they were with the toy dog in the area for big dogs, in my opinion the most irresponsible act in all this. 



Alerondogs said:


> <snip>
> I can't help but think blaming the Husky's owner for the incident is like letting your dog run the neighborhood every day and then blaming the driver when they get hit by a car. Sure, maybe the driver was speeding or could have been more careful but ultimately, you would be the one who allowed your dog to repeatedly be in a dangerous situation. <snip>


EXACTLY this!


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## NikoBellic (Sep 29, 2011)

wow, that's a terrible story, what a real life nightmare, I can't even imagine. I read the thread title as "Chihahua killed MY Husky at dog park yesterday" and thought it would be some amusing anecdote...

Something about this discussion though reminds me of a story in the news awhile ago about a Toronto cop who said that if women wanted to remain safe from rapists they should avoid dressing like sluts.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

NikoBellic said:


> Something about this discussion though reminds me of a story in the news awhile ago about a Toronto cop who said that if women wanted to remain safe from rapists they should avoid dressing like sluts.


Actually, it's more like someone dresses in a KKK outfit going and shooting hoops with a bunch of black guys in their neighborhood. In a perfect world, people should be able to wear what they want, and everyone would behave, and play nice together, but someone doing that would be stupid, and eventually is going to result in injury/death.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

NikoBellic said:


> Something about this discussion though reminds me of a story in the news awhile ago about a Toronto cop who said that if women wanted to remain safe from rapists they should avoid dressing like sluts.


Did you really just make this ridiculous comparison? _Really?_

The situation is more like sending your toddler out to play football with a bunch of adults who intend to treat him as if he were their size.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

That and no one is victim blaming here, as one would be doing by insinuating a rape victim deserved what happened. The Chihuahua was the victim, and no one is blaming the Chi for getting killed. When you are a dog owner you are in charge of protecting your dog.


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Dog can't help it if the owner was acting dumb.


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## CJay (Feb 25, 2012)

This makes me so afraid to ever take my dog to a dog park! I think every dog owner acted irresponsibly not just the two dogs in the altercation! So many of them had signs and warnings something was going to happen and it could have been any of their dogs! 

The rapist comment was ridiculous and irrelevant... I cringe at the thought of THAT being a comparison... This has nothing to do with societal views that discriminate against anyone or anything.


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## diversedogmom (Apr 1, 2012)

How sad the poor little dog died  This however is why I do not care much for dog parks, my dogs love them! But owning a sighthound that is NOT small dog safe I hate when I see ppl with little dogs in the big dog section of the dog park, it means either we have to leave or my girl has to wear her coursing muzzle.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

not just dog parks, there is a story locally, a lady was walking her shelties on a trail, when some girls with a pair of Huskys came into veiw, the Huskys were off leash and one bolted out and attacked one of the Shelties, caused extensive damage(a $9000 vet bill) and the dog did not even survive. this was NOT at a dog park, just minding her own buisness walking her Shelties on a trail.

I cant comment on split dog parks, we have one dog park here and it is not split in any way(its not even fully fenced) but I have been to dog parks in other citys while traveling and I have never seen a split one before lol.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> Actually, it's more like someone dresses in a KKK outfit going and shooting hoops with a bunch of black guys in their neighborhood. In a perfect world, people should be able to wear what they want, and everyone would behave, and play nice together, but someone doing that would be stupid, and eventually is going to result in injury/death.



Agreed.



diversedogmom said:


> How sad the poor little dog died  This however is why I do not care much for dog parks, my dogs love them! But owning a sighthound that is NOT small dog safe I hate when I see ppl with little dogs in the big dog section of the dog park, it means either we have to leave or my girl has to wear her coursing muzzle.


I heard of a dog with a muzzle out on trails. There were a lot of loose dogs in her area so to prevent her dog from biting small dogs, she had a muzzle on the dog (A Weimaraner if I remember right). One day a little terrier of some kind (I think JR) came towards them in attack mode. The Weim killed the JR even with the muzzle on. He just pommeled the little dog to death. To put a muzzle on a big dog and let them out with little dogs might not be such a good idea ...


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## diversedogmom (Apr 1, 2012)

hast said:


> To put a muzzle on a big dog and let them out with little dogs might not be such a good idea ...


I have never let her out with a muzzle at a dog park, we take it along whenever we go..which is like once a year lol! I have never walked her with the muzzle on, she is leashed and completely under my control and others dogs should be leashed. I just wish more owners would keep their small dogs in the proper side of dog parks so ppl that own dog breeds that can hurt small dogs don't have to stress so much over it!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Miss Bugs said:


> not just dog parks, there is a story locally, a lady was walking her shelties on a trail, when some girls with a pair of Huskys came into veiw, the Huskys were off leash and one bolted out and attacked one of the Shelties, caused extensive damage(a $9000 vet bill) and the dog did not even survive. this was NOT at a dog park, just minding her own buisness walking her Shelties on a trail.
> 
> I cant comment on split dog parks, we have one dog park here and it is not split in any way(its not even fully fenced) but I have been to dog parks in other citys while traveling and I have never seen a split one before lol.


That is horrible. We know a couple on the next street over that have a huge husky/malamute mix. Very nice dog, to humans. Hates other dogs. He used to walk him offleash, he then attacked another neighbors elderly bearded collie. I told the beardie owner that she needed to report the people but she refused. I told her if that dog attacked another dog, how would she feel? I don't know what she did, if anything but I haven't seen the other dog offleash since.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Juniper's mom said:


> Long thread, but I couldn't resist my two cent ;-).
> 
> Further, this got me to thinking about a recent dog park altercation I had with a friend. My friend has a really driven cattle dog, that she is working with rigorously with a trainer to help rechannel some of his instinct to run up to other dogs and bark and them and try to herd them. As we were walking out of the park, she had her dog on leash and another guy's poorly trained puppy ran up and started taunting her guy. This provoked the herding drive of the cattle and he started barking a ton. The other dog's owner stubbornly refused to try and call his dog back, I guess because it was a "free country" or whatever.
> 
> The polite thing to do would be to call your dog back, but beyond that, it's just a part of keeping your dog safe, in removing it from a situation that's getting testy. I think it's really important for all dog owners to err very much on the side of caution. Their dogs truly do not know any better than their instincts or their drives, and it's our jobs to set the boundaries.


For the most part. I agree with your post. However, I really doubt that the cattle dog's reaction to the obnoxious pup had anything to do with herding or cattle.


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## ScramblesMommy (Nov 5, 2011)

JulieK1967 said:


> Just yesterday I had to leave the dog park (empty when I got there) because some yahoo showed up and INSISTED that his 2 big, rambunctious dogs were fine in the small dog side. When I pointed out the larger big dog side, he just ignored me. When I told him my dog could be seriously injured by his dog just playfully ramming her, he didn't care. Guess who had to leave not 2 minutes after arriving? That's right, me and my 13 lb dog because as "in the right" as I was in that situation, I'd rather have an uninjured dog than stand on my righteousness. I'll never go back to this place again. Fortunately, we're moving in a week & no dog parks in the new town. I'm bummed that I can't let her run around off lead anymore but I'd rather have her safe. That's my top priority.



I've dealt with similar situations at our park. There is a gated off "small dog" area some some owners insist that their very large dogs come in as well. Most of the time it's alright, but there have been a few occasions where we had to leave. It's a fenced off area for SMALL DOGS ONLY for a reason


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Many long years ago I was a fancier of dog parks. I took my dogs often and let them run. The park here was a few trails and a huge field and not many other dogs, which was really nice. I would just let the dogs off leash and I would walk the trails. My dogs would run but would stay fairly close to me at all times. Within 25 feet at all times. We LOVED it. Then a few months after we started going and loving it, we had a bad experience. We were walking past an area where there was thick, high brush. A Golden retriever came flying out and bit one of my dogs. I yelled at the dog (no owner around) and it finally backed off. I walked back to the car area, told some others about it and left with my dogs. I thought "well, that was a total fluke so I would try it again" A few more happy dog park times and I was back in the " love dog parks boat" but then, another bad time. 

This time, we were running up a hill, I could see other people playing with their dogs down at the bottom of the hill but it was a long way away and the people looked like small from where we were. Another flat out attack and oddly enough another Golden Retriever. Not the same dog and this one meant serious business. It went nuts on my one of my dogs and my focus was keeping my other dog from getting into it while grabbing a huge stick to smack the other dog. I yelled to my dog to "Platz" (down) and she did while I backed the dog off by with the stick and a very aggressive behavior on my part. We managed to back our way down the hill, keeping an eye out for the Golden who had tried to advance more then once. My dog was bleeding and I was angry. When I got to the bottom, I told others what had happened and one person actually laughed. They thought it was impossible for a Golden to attack a Rottweiler. Others stood up for us and showed concern. Nobody claimed the Golden but I gave them fair warning that the dog was out there and obviously not real stable. I never went back to the dog park. 

I do take my dogs hiking on public trails but only the ones where it is very rare to see other dogs. The few we have run into over the years have been well socialized dogs, thankfully. To this day, I am a little nervous each time a new dog shows up unless I know the people. 

I feel horrible for the Chihuahua owner. I cannot even imagine had I lost one of my dogs to another dog at a dog park. I agree that it is all about our choice as owners to partake or not. I chose not to. I learned it wasn't a safe situation and thankfully, only had a few puncture wounds to attend to not the loss of my dog. 

I see in the picture that the Chihuahua wasn't neutered either and I think that is another risk at a dog park. I have noticed with my own unaltered male that he tends to be a target of other dogs. That could be another thing but at this point, what it was, doesn't matter. I will just never advocate for dog parks again. I hate that they cannot be the wonderful places they were intended because there are always some people who will insist on bringing dogs that shouldn't be there and people who do not watch their dogs close enough. At the park I went to there was a large dog area and a small dog area. There were never small dogs in the small dog area, they were always in the large dog area. I usually just avoided everyone by walking and my dogs would come with me. They might interact a little with dogs as we passed them but I never let it go on too long. Short sweet and safe. There were a few people we got to know while going and they really watched their dogs so I let my dogs play with theirs. They stopped going after our situation as well.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

In Australia, dog parks are nowhere near as common as dog beaches, so I cannot comment on personal experience, but I DO have a Chihuahua. I'm part of a group where we take our Chis to the beach and there are many supervising. Yes some are smaller than others but only by a kg or two.

I feel sorry for the husky who will either be PTS or declared dangerous, and the poor Chihuahua who lost it's life in such a horrific way.

The only blame anyone should be placing is on both irresponsible owners. When Winnie is older and bigger I will allow her to play (closely supervised) with larger dogs I know. I wouldn't throw a toddler into a gang and say 'be a big girl' so I wouldn't do it to my tiny dog.


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## sailsnsun (Mar 22, 2012)

So strange. This exact scenario happened at the dog park around the corner from my house in Cleveland, Ohio.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/woman_charged_after_fatal_maul.html

Sad.


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## perlita (Jan 6, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> How? Yes the chi owner could have prevented it but it wasn't her 'fault'. It was the owner of the husky's fault. But as I said before being in the right TECHNICALLY doesn't make your small dog any less dead. It sucks that people can't keep control of their dogs but as a small dog owner we have to be more observant than most.


I have a medium sized dog, but as soon as I see any dogs being aggressive in the park, I grab my dog. Even if they're being aggressive to another dog. If the aggressive dog and owner don't leave, I do. My dog is super submissive, but I wouldn't chance it.

When something awful happens people always want to place blame. But in the end, it doesn't change the awful outcome.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sailsnsun said:


> So strange. This exact scenario happened at the dog park around the corner from my house in Cleveland, Ohio.
> 
> http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/woman_charged_after_fatal_maul.html
> 
> Sad.


Wow, this one is even worse because not only does the park not have a small dog section at all, and the chihuahua was reportedly nipping at other dogs beforehand, but the husky wasn't even there with its owner -- some lady brought her dog and her cousin's husky to the park. She was sitting on a bench and not even watching the dogs; she didn't see the incident. Now that husky has been declared a vicious dog and the owner has "to buy insurance, muzzle the dog in public, post a warning on her property and imbed an identification microchip in the dog." I'd be really angry if I were the husky's owner -- that owner has no idea of the circumstances surrounding the attack and now look at all the crap they have to do.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Honestly, I don't get the allure of dog parks at all. I have never set foot in one with my dogs nor will I ever set foot in one with my dogs. Personally, I think they are a recipe for epic disaster just like we've seen here with the death of a dog. You have groups of dogs who run amok while their owners are distracted by chatting with the other owners. Or, you have people who show up there that can't interpret dog body langauge or understand basic dog behavior. 

Seriously, you couldn't pay me to go and let my dogs frequent a dog park.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

sailsnsun said:


> So strange. This exact scenario happened at the dog park around the corner from my house in Cleveland, Ohio.
> 
> http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/04/woman_charged_after_fatal_maul.html
> 
> Sad.


_Amy Ryan, owner of Camp Bow Wow, a dog boarding and day-care facility in Highland Heights, said placing large and small dogs in a play area is asking for trouble, especially without knowing the temperament of other dogs.
"You've got to separate them by size," said Ryan. "I have four small dogs and if I took them to a dog park I wouldn't let them around a large dog. Dogs can be unpredictable. Even though it may be a sweet dog at home, it's not known how it's going to react to other dogs."_

Thank you, Amy Ryan!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Having a boarding kennel (just kennel runs 4 by 12 ft) you would be surprised at the people with 2 dogs that want them kenneled together (never allowed it) Dogs that live together at home can change when in a strange place and get in a fistfight. Dog park + large/small dogs + owners not operating with a full deck bad idea.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Having a boarding kennel (just kennel runs 4 by 12 ft) you would be surprised at the people with 2 dogs that want them kenneled together (never allowed it) Dogs that live together at home can change when in a strange place and get in a fistfight. Dog park + large/small dogs + owners not operating with a full deck bad idea.


I never thought about that, back when I boarded my dogs. We had three, almost always and to be honest, i couldn't afford to board them in different kennels. It makes sense now though


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

InkedMarie said:


> I never thought about that, back when I boarded my dogs. We had three, almost always and to be honest, i couldn't afford to board them in different kennels. It makes sense now though


Of the dozens of "siblings" that I've worked with in a boarding environment, only two sets of siblings ended up being separated. Yeah, the dynamic can change in a different setting like boarding but it seems few and far between. Though we did feed most siblings separately and most had daycare time to burn off extra energy.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Sloth said:


> ...Ok, I guess I'm just saying that those don't sound like "nice dogs" to me. They sound like ticking time bombs who shouldn't be at the dog park, period. I don't want to offend any husky owners on here. I just don't get how it's NOT ok to bring a dog-aggressive dog to the dog park. But it IS ok to bring a dog to the dog park who is only aggressive if dogs are of a certain size.
> 
> I get that small dogs/big dogs should be separated, and I do not understand any small dog owners who let their pups play with big dogs who can hurt them accidently, even without prey drive being involved. I just think it's too bad that "prey drive" is dismissed as...I don't know, instinct? - when it sounds so, so dangerous.


I have also seen my share of dog aggressive chi dogs, lots and lots of them.. Yorkies and others as well and many are rewarded and encouraged to be that way. I have lost count at how many have attacked Hope and I have only owned her for a little over 2 years.

It's all cute until a bigger dog takes it as seriously as the chi means it to be and gets the chomp of death from the big dog. I would leave if my large dog was not reliable enough to be attacked by a small dog and not respond, and I would leave if I had a small dog if there was an unreliable looking large dog at the park..

But then I think I do the smarter thing and just avoid the dog park altogether. 

But the obvious thing to me here is that if you take a dog into a park full of large dogs that can kill your small dog in an instant with a single bite, your playing russian roulette and putting your dogs life at serious risk. If it does happen and your dog dies it is 100% your fault for putting your little dog in a situation where it could happen. Stupid hurts.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

TxRider said:


> I have also seen my share of dog aggressive chi dogs, lots and lots of them.. Yorkies and others as well and many are rewarded and encouraged to be that way. I have lost count at how many have attacked Hope and I have only owned her for a little over 2 years.
> 
> It's all cute until a bigger dog takes it as seriously as the chi means it to be and gets the chomp of death from the big dog. I would leave if my large dog was not reliable enough to be attacked by a small dog and not respond, and I would leave if I had a small dog if there was an unreliable looking large dog at the park..
> 
> ...


Where does it say the Chihuahua was aggressive and went for the husky..? That entire first paragraph is based on your own experiences and massive assumptions. Someone's pet died and another's may be PTS or declared dangerous. Show some tact. I've had many bad experiences with large or giant breeds but it's hardly a 'breed' thing. How are we supposed to fight BSL when we still judge other non bully breeds? You can't make assumptions about Chihuahuas or Husky temperament then be distraught at BSL. Yes, breeds have different traits but every single dog is different. No point judging. This is a plural statement.

I don't understand why this always turns into a 'I own a toy breed so I'm going to bash larger dogs, I own a large breed so I'm going to bash toy dogs' argument.

They're DOGS. Regardless of size, shit happens. Labelling entire groups of people does nothing but incite more conflict.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

This morning at the dog park, a lady came in with a tiny 5-month old puppy that belonged to her sister. This puppy could not have weighed more than 5 pounds, and the morning dog park crowd tends toward bigger dogs. The next smallest there was about 25 pounds, and there were several that were much bigger, including a husky. I kept thinking about this thread. The poor puppy was terrified, but the lady kept saying the pup needed to "socialize" and encouraging it to run around. That only made things worse, as every time the puppy ran somewhere, a flock of other dogs would come a-running. I eventually said to another owner, loud enough for the lady to overhear me, "I'm really worried that the husky's prey drive is going to turn on and he'll go after that puppy," and FINALLY she left. (Not that only huskies have prey drive - I just thought it would be the quickest way to convey my point). Ugh, what is wrong with people?


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

I really don't want to get back into this debate and have stayed out of the thread for awhile now since it turned into something it wasn't intended to be. BUT, I would just like to state for the record, that the Chihuahua was in no way aggressive. He wasn't irritating, aggressive, pushy, yappy etc. He was being a normal dog, minding his own business and playing with the other dogs that interacted WITH him. Everyone seems to think that just because he was a small Chihuahua that he HAD to have initiated the attack in some way; You know.. how "ALL small dogs seem to do" (said with MUCH sarcasm!). He didn't.

Now that some time has passed and the shock has worn off, I do agree that the Husky owner wasn't the only one at fault. The Chi's owner took the risk when she brought him in. BUT, I do not agree at all that it was ONLY the Chi owners fault. Prey drive or no prey drive.. if YOUR dog is causing problems, YOU should take him and leave! This could have been avoided if the Husky's owner had of just left when her dog started getting aggressive with ALL the other dogs. The prey drive excuse is just that, an excuse! With proper training, it shouldn't be an issue. IMO!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

chipinmom, prey drive cannot be trained away. It's instinct. I don't know if it was prey drive at fault in the incident you witnessed (perhaps not, as you said the husky was causing problems with multiple dogs; it sounds like a bad dog park candidate in general), but it's really not down to training in that instance. Even the most well-trained dog could "turn on" at the sight of something small and furry streaking by.

AussieNerdQueen, TxRider did not say in his post that all small dogs are asking for it or anything like that. He said that many small dogs are snappy towards big dogs, and as the owner of two small dogs, I can admit that that's true. Mine are that way, because they're nervous and want the big dogs to back off. I don't take them to dog parks, because they would not do well there... but way too many people can't read their dogs at all and throw their small dogs into situations that are uncomfortable for them. It is never the dog's fault when an incident like this happens. It's the irresponsible owner's fault for putting their dog at risk. (Also, in the first story, you're right, the chi was the content one and the husky was the bad dog-park candidate. In the second story -- I quoted the link in my post above, #163 -- the chi was the uncomfortable one that had been nipping at multiple dogs before the incident.)


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

I completely agree Crantastic. I didn't mean that prey drive can be trained away. I know it is natural and can occur without warning at any time. HOWEVER, it CAN be controlled and avoided, with not only the proper training, but also with proper supervision and a proactive approach from the owner.

That being said, I do not believe it was prey drive at all in this situation.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

Husky killed by a Polar Bear..
My Eskimo friend "Nanook" thought it would be okay for his Husky to play with the Polar Bears..

The seals and penguins tried to warn him...but Nanook did not heed their warning.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Roloni said:


> Husky killed by a Polar Bear..
> My Eskimo friend "Nanook" thought it would be okay for his Husky to play with the Polar Bears..
> 
> The seals and penguins tried to warn him...but Nanook did not heed their warning.


*likes*


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

I just want to say.. Everyone needs to remember that not everyone handles/raises/trains/socializes their dogs the same way you do yours. We can give advice, but in the end, it's the owner's choice. That doesn't mean that either person is in the wrong or is a bad dog owner. It just means that for THEM, it works. Aside from blatant abuse and neglect, once your opinion and advice is given, I think it's kinda rude to ASSUME that just because they do something that you wouldn't, or do something different than how you would, that they are bad owners and don't care about their dogs. 

Nothing said in this thread is going to make me stop taking my dog to the dog park. It also won't stop me from taking him in with the bigger dogs. My dog, my choice. If, and it's a HUGE if!, something was ever to happen, then obviously that's on me and no one else. But, I know damn well that I am a GREAT dog owner. Whether some of you think so or not, bothers me not in the least. 

That being said, I don't always agree with the what any of you do with your dogs either. But I'm smart enough to know that everyone is different and just because someone does something I wouldn't, or doesn't take my advice in doing it MY way, doesn't necessarily make it wrong or bad. Just a different approach that works for them.


I'm not intentionally pointing fingers at anyone here. And I'm not looking to start more arguments on this thread. But sometimes you just really need to sit back and remember that there are real people on the other side of that screen.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Tofu_pup said:


> Of the dozens of "siblings" that I've worked with in a boarding environment, only two sets of siblings ended up being separated. Yeah, the dynamic can change in a different setting like boarding but it seems few and far between. Though we did feed most siblings separately and most had daycare time to burn off extra energy.


Yes I agree, it may be few and far between but if dogs are separate it never happens. People have a tendency to frown when picking up dogs with holes in ears etc. 

This was just way we did it, other kennels/daycare etc all have their own programs all successful I'm sure.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> Nothing said in this thread is going to make me stop taking my dog to the dog park. It also won't stop me from taking him in with the bigger dogs. My dog, my choice. If, and it's a HUGE if!, something was ever to happen, then obviously that's on me and no one else. But, I know damn well that I am a GREAT dog owner. Whether some of you think so or not, bothers me not in the least.


It is your choice, and you have a right to that choice. But if I remember correctly, this is also the second thread you've created complaining about the dog park, and the same issue no less (some large out of control dog hurting/threatening smaller dogs while the owner does little to nothing). You were warned in that first thread what could happen to a small dog in an off leash dog park with large dogs and you got defensive and angry and essentially blew off everything that was said to you, passing it off as people being "mean". You just witnessed first hand exactly what you were warned could happen, and you're reaction has been absolutely no different. 

The choice is yours, but if Bentely ends up getting hurt at the dog park (and there's a good chance he eventually will if you keep up the naive attitude) don't come crying back a third time.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Yes, I started a thread awhile ago complaining about Bentley being picked on at the park. Here's the issue.. 1) I NOW know that I was stupid to bring him to the park with a coat on. So that's all on me. Take the coat off, issue solved. 2) That was when I first started taking him to the dog park and I stupidly took him on a weekend during peak time. Since that day, I take him only during the weekday and at times when I know it's not super busy.

I'm not saying that taking him into the park with the bigger dogs is the smartest thing to do. Some people won't take that chance, and that's perfectly logical and fine with me. But, it works for us. And aside from the first incident with him having a coat on, we have had no other problems. My dog is trained well. He gets along with ALL dogs. And while I can't predict how other people's dogs are going to act, I do know that in any dangerous situation, at any time, I am never more than a few feet away from Bentley and always on alert. Just as I did in the first situation, if another dog gets out of hand or starts picking on him, I will leave.

I KNOW I'm not the only one on this forum that let's their smaller dog play with bigger dogs. But apparently I'm the only one willing to say it out loud and get flamed for it. That's fine.. flame away.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

chipinmom said:


> My dog is trained well. He gets along with ALL dogs. And while I can't predict how other people's dogs are going to act, I do know that in any dangerous situation, at any time, I am never more than a few feet away from Bentley and always on alert. Just as I did in the first situation, if another dog gets out of hand or starts picking on him, I will leave.
> 
> .


You said in an earlier post that the Chih that was killed was next to the owner, and had been playing fine with other dogs, and that the Husky had not been aggressive to the Chih. You DO realize that everything you just stated above, is what the Chih's owner would have claimed, right up until it was killed....
Good luck with your dog. I hope he stays safe, truly.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

No one is "flaming" you for your decisions. Many people have simply pointed out that a person takes a big risk when they let a small dog play with unknown large dogs. You know that, though, so if you want to continue to do it with your own dog, that's your prerogative. It's my prerogative to think it's a dumb idea and refrain from putting my dogs in a similar situation.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Look, every thing you do dog related is a risk. I take a risk letting my Dachshund outside, because every so often he'll run and leap off the deck. We've built him separate easy to use stairs, but excitement trumps them every once in a while. Normally he hits the ground running, and no matter what he's yet to be discouraged, but one of these days he can blow a disc and I did nothing but let my dog go outside. We as owners have to take calculated risks. Is it a necessary risk to bring a small dog into the big dog section of the dog park? Not in any way that I can fathom.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

If the OP would just say, "I realize that no matter how well trained my dog is, and no matter how close I keep him to me, or how closely I watch him, I realize he is at risk of being killed by a large dog's prey drive when I bring him to the dog park with large dogs in it. However I am willing to take that risk, and realize that I am also risking having an otherwise great large dog labeled as dangerous, if his prey drive unexpectedly kicks in. And I understand that someone may get hurt trying to pull a large dog off of my small dog, but I am willing to risk it, in order to let my dog play with the big dogs in the dog park." 

Then I would believe she really and truly knows what the risks are, and that, that is her decision to make. But saying, "My dog is well trained, I keep him close, he gets along with other dogs" basically indicates that she is deluding herself about the risks and doesn't really understand that you can have/do all that, yet have your dog killed (as the Chih that was near the owner, who was attacked out of the blue with no warning, was).

THAT's why I keep posting. I am not trying to flame the OP, nor tell her what to do. But at least admit, honestly what the risk is, and not delude yourself with reasons why it couldn't happen to your dog.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Then I guess I'm deluding myself..

I never said there wasn't a risk. There's always a risk.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

I only skimmed this thread, but my local dog park is always empty. We only use the big dog side, and we bring all five dogs (two bcs, a 110lb mix, a lab and a 2 pound chi) and they all play together. Granted if there were other dogs there then I would not let the chi in the side with the big dogs. Our small side never really gets used either, but we use it as a time-out side for Maddie when she gets to excited as she doesn't speak very good dog language and tends to push boundaries


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> If the OP would just say, "I realize that no matter how well trained my dog is, and no matter how close I keep him to me, or how closely I watch him, I realize he is at risk of being killed by a large dog's prey drive when I bring him to the dog park with large dogs in it. However *I am willing to take that risk, and realize that I am also risking having an otherwise great large dog labeled as dangerous, if his prey drive unexpectedly kicks in. And I understand that someone may get hurt trying to pull a large dog off of my small dog, but I am willing to risk it,* in order to let my dog play with the big dogs in the dog park."
> 
> Then I would believe she really and truly knows what the risks are, and that, that is her decision to make. But saying, "My dog is well trained, I keep him close, he gets along with other dogs" basically indicates that she is deluding herself about the risks and doesn't really understand that you can have/do all that, yet have your dog killed (as the Chih that was near the owner, who was attacked out of the blue with no warning, was).
> 
> THAT's why I keep posting. I am not trying to flame the OP, nor tell her what to do. But at least admit, honestly what the risk is, and not delude yourself with reasons why it couldn't happen to your dog.


But... there is a double standard there. Isn't it actually the fault of the large dog owner for getting their dog labeled as dangerous, because they didn't leave when they saw a small dog present? And isn't the large dog owner equally responsible if any humans get injured trying to separate the dogs? If it's an all-sizes place, isn't the large dog owner just as responsible for leaving as the small dog owner? And entirely responsible for choosing not to leave, and for their dog subsequently getting labeled, and people getting hurt? Why, in your example, is it all the small dog owners fault?

So perhaps in all-sizes dog parks, anyone with a large _or _small dog should leave if if the opposite size is present, and owners of small _and _large dogs are negligent if they stay.

In other words, if you know your otherwise safe dog may suddenly exhibit prey drive if a small dog runs past, and you know people might get hurt trying to pull your large dog off a small dog, aren't you negligent if you stay when small dogs are present?

I know it's silly parsing blame like this, but it bothers me that people seem to be placing all the responsibility on small dog owners to simply get out of the way of large dog owners, who apparently share none of the responsibility for the small dog's safety, the large dog's reputation, and the safety of the humans present.

(Of course, at the end of the day, blaming someone else won't save your dog, so for practicality's sake -- if not ethics -- the small dog owner should leave regardless.)


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

begemot said:


> But... there is a double standard there. Isn't it actually the fault of the large dog owner for getting their dog labeled as dangerous, because they didn't leave when they saw a small dog present? And isn't the large dog owner equally responsible if any humans get injured trying to separate the dogs? If it's an all-sizes place, isn't the large dog owner just as responsible for leaving as the small dog owner? And entirely responsible for choosing not to leave, and for their dog subsequently getting labeled, and people getting hurt? Why, in your example, is it all the small dog owners fault?
> 
> So perhaps in all-sizes dog parks, anyone with a large _or _small dog should leave if if the opposite size is present, and owners of small _and _large dogs are negligent if they stay.
> 
> ...


For the sake of argument I'll use the OP's park and what they've said about it. In their park yes the small dog should move over to the small dog side of the park because it IS an option. There isn't another area for the large dog to go other than leave, there IS a small dog side. This is simply in reference to a large dog who MIGHT have their prey drive triggered by a small dog not the husky in the OP who was acting aggressive with all.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Even if you are beside your dog, if a large dog gets one good hire to his head, chest, or abdomen, he can be killed before you can do anything. You may never see it coming. Seriously, to watch you dog be disembowelled, when it can easily be prevented. 
Though you have seen it first hand, so its your choice to risk it. Dog fights are not easy to break up if one dog is serious. I watched a cat be killed, by a large pit bull at the clinic I worked for, because a careless kennel worker decided to put the very animal aggressive dog into the cat room to clean his kennel. The assistant opened the door with the cat, one bite to the abdomen. There were 6 of us who could not get the dog to let go, which included a break stick, and other extreme measures. The only way we got the cat out, was by giving pantothal IV, which drops the dog instantly. The cat died, the owner of the dog east extremely mad (rightly so) very bad situation. Yet so easily could have been prevented!


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

hast said:


> Fact is still that they were with the toy dog in the area for big dogs, in my opinion the most irresponsible act in all this.


Oops I missed the post where this is mentioned, I take back what I said.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Just heard last night that they are trying to get a dog park opened in our small town. Never thought there would be one here and something I would never use. There are so many acres of open land that you can take your dog on and let them run but I guess there are a lot of people who cannot let their dogs run off leash if it is not fenced. I know the Doggy Daycare is always full so maybe there are enough people wanting it so will have to wait and see if it happens.

The closest I have been to a Dog Park is at one of the Agility trials I go to, they have a large fenced in playground that you can let your dogs have a run in. However, there you are dealing with dogs that are on the whole used to other dogs and well trained and even then, you have to pick the time you go in there as there has been problems with large and small dogs being together.


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## The Feather Duster (Apr 14, 2010)

I try to live by the proverb that "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." Or death, in this case. As a few in this thread have said, I don't take my dog to dog parks. She's only twenty pounds, so not so terribly little, but far from big. Too much possible danger waiting to happen.

Even on normal walks, there are dogs that scare her. She loves all dogs initially until she gets the picture in full. Bouncy Goldens who overwhelm her. Exuberant Huskies sniffing her in a way that makes her uncomfortable. Snappy tiny little dogs that have her looking for an escape route.

I suppose well managed dog parks could be fine, but I just don't trust them. Or maybe it's just some irresponsible owners I don't trust. Sadly, there are too many of them around for my liking.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

dagwall said:


> For the sake of argument I'll use the OP's park and what they've said about it. In their park yes the small dog should move over to the small dog side of the park because it IS an option. There isn't another area for the large dog to go other than leave, there IS a small dog side. This is simply in reference to a large dog who MIGHT have their prey drive triggered by a small dog not the husky in the OP who was acting aggressive with all.


But we aren't just talking about the OP's park, which does have a small dog side (though she said the other side is all-sizes). People are also talking about the new link to the news story, where there is only one section that's all-sizes. And most of the posters are extrapolating to _all _dog parks, not just talking about specific examples at all.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

a) I can't believe this thread is still going because it seems, just from reading the first few pages when it was new, and reading the last page now, that the same points are being beat to death.

b) In any case, on our trip to the park today I ventured to a new park that's recently been built, that I enjoy going to for various reasons, and that has a dog park that had not yet opened. It's the first dog park in the area, despite possibly having a population nearing 200-250,000 people. Found today that it was open. And of course, upon arrival, I immediately see that there are a handful of people already there, and each of them appears to have a small dog. This park has 2 sections, with the gates CLEARLY labeled. One being a smaller size for 30 lbs and under, and the other probably 3 times the size and labeled 30 lbs and over. With all of the people there, despite Jax being friendly and hardly ever showing aggression to other dogs, or anyone even, I decided we'd walk a mile around the park first. I did notice there was a couple with 2 larger dogs on the back side, staying clear of all the small things. 

Of course, I had this thread in mind when I saw all the small dogs. Despite it being labeled clearly 30 lbs and up, I didn't want to risk being thrust into a situation with THAT MANY small dogs. There were probably about 6 of them, with a crowd of more people than that.

Thankfully, after our mile, all of those dogs were gone and an additional couple was there with what turned out to be a Husky/GSD mix of 115 pounds and a barely 30 pound terrier mix of some sort. Jax did great, the little dog played well, and from speaking to the owners, they seemed to realize that having their small dog in their was something to keep an eye on and that there may be a time that they have to take her out.

However, here's the kicker. I stopped to read all the "rules" on the larger sign on my way out. Turns out it IS stated that smaller dogs ARE allowed in the 30 lb and above side, AT THE OWNER'S RISK. But even so, I find this to be a bit of an issue to a degree, because it also clearly states that larger dogs are NOT allowed in the smaller side. So what if an owner takes that risk and brings their small dog over? Then something happens involving a larger dog? Regardless of it being at the risk of the small-dog owner, the large dog would still likely be blamed and the dog labeled by people as being aggressive. Sure, the one-liner on the sign may save the large-dog owner of financial/legal responsibility, but that doesn't save them and their larger dog from being labeled either. THAT is where I have a problem. Even if "allowed," not only are you risking your own dog, but you're risking someone else having to deal with the consequences that very well may not have been brought on by their irresponsibility or their dog's own behavior.


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## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

So here's where I provide an opinion that might not be very popular, but I've got to share it anyway. If you go to the dog park with a Pit or Pit mix, or a dog that people think is a Pit mix or looks like a Pit mix, and ANYTHING happens, your dog will pay the price. Understand that I don't mean it's necessarily your fault, but your dog will suffer because everyone will jump on the "blame the Pit" bandwagon.

I don't go to dog parks. I used to occasionally, with my previous dog, but I can't now. I have two Pit types and I know damn well that if I took one of them in there, and a random dog attacked her, after submissively urinating all over the place she might win a fight defending herself and then people would be screaming to have her put down. It's just a sad reality right now. There is no good outcome, she loses no matter what.

It's basically a sort of indirectly similar situation to having a very small dog. I understand that accidents happen, and I understand that if an accident were to happen, my dog is going to be the one to take the fall regardless of the circumstances involved. And it doesn't just hurt my dog, but all Pit types everywhere, because we become another inaccurate statistic supporting the ignorant misconceptions that we're fighting to educate against. Just food for thought.


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## sscott87 (Feb 19, 2012)

That's exactly what it is. And you're right, it's very much the same situation as big dog vs little dog. Yes, there are indeed cases where big dog goes after little dog or pit goes after whatever. But just the same, because people assume that's the case, the wrong dog/owner will end up taking the blame when really and truly, at the very least, both parties were equally to blame. The thought of having a dog park now is awesome for me, as I live in a rental and don't have the luxury of a fenced yard while having a dog I cannot let off-leash, however, I am very much aware of the risks. Being the first experience for both Jax and I, I hesitated very much today. That's why I chose to walk a lap rather than entering with so many unknowns of all the smaller dogs in there initially. That's why when I did enter, and there was both a larger and a smaller dog, I was very aware of that and eased Jax into it, as did the owners when their dogs came over. It's the same reason why I did not trust Jax to get far out of reach with any other dog that came into the park. Fortunately, today's crowd seemed very much on the same page, but I don't expect that to always be the case. These are the things that people need to be aware of and alert of when venturing into such. But not all are.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Moxie--

As the owner of 2 pit bulls, I am in complete agreement with you. They simply don't belong in dog parks. Even if they SCARE another dog, the chant is going to be "devil dog." I actually have a little female who would love to go and would likely be fine, but I don't take her for the very reason you mentioned.

I also have a perfectly appropriate whippet who can't go because if a large dog body-checks her wrong, she could easily break a leg. Plus, her skin just wants to tear.

I guess it's "not fair" that my dogs can't go to the park like "all the other dogs can," but the truth is, it would simply be asking for trouble. So I can't go, large side, small side, or mixed. 

Somehow, they still manage to have a great life.


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## chubby (Aug 18, 2011)

My heart breaks for this owner and the little chihuahua. After that incident me and butters experienced at the dog park, I have nightmares about it, and always feel like crying because I failed Butters. I know now what is best for her, to arrange a small group of dogs who are similar in play-style and temperament, and go that direction. NO more dog parks!!!!!!

R.I.P little one


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

NikoBellic said:


> wow, that's a terrible story, what a real life nightmare, I can't even imagine. I read the thread title as "Chihahua killed MY Husky at dog park yesterday" and thought it would be some amusing anecdote...
> 
> Something about this discussion though reminds me of a story in the news awhile ago about *a Toronto cop who said that if women wanted to remain safe from rapists they should avoid dressing like sluts.*


That is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard in my life. That is victim blaming and that line of thought is dangerous and callous. And it's also not comparable. I know this isn't the main point of this thread, but saying you deserved to be raped because of how you dress is something I can't pass up. I'm not saying _you_ personally believe that but obviously the cop does. What about people who are fully covered and are still raped? Hmm.

My sympathies go out to the owner of the chi and the OP.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

CrimsonAccent said:


> That is the most disgusting thing I've ever heard in my life. That is victim blaming and that line of thought is dangerous and callous. And it's also not comparable. I know this isn't the main point of this thread, but saying you deserved to be raped because of how you dress is something I can't pass up. I'm not saying _you_ personally believe that but obviously the cop does. What about people who are fully covered and are still raped? Hmm.


I ignored that quote because it made my blood boil. I've actually copped the 'your skirt was too short' bull...I was in my Catholic school uniform!

On topic, this is a tragedy all the way around. R.I.P little one.

Anyone know what happened to the Husky?


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

TxRider said:


> But the obvious thing to me here is that if you take a dog into a park full of large dogs that can kill your small dog in an instant with a single bite, your playing russian roulette and putting your dogs life at serious risk. If it does happen and your dog dies it is 100% your fault for putting your little dog in a situation where it could happen. *Stupid hurts.*


+1000



chipinmom said:


> Nothing said in this thread is going to make me stop taking my dog to the dog park. *It also won't stop me from taking him in with the bigger dogs.* My dog, my choice. If, and it's a HUGE if!, something was ever to happen, then obviously that's on me and no one else. But, I know damn well that I am a GREAT dog owner. Whether some of you think so or not, bothers me not in the least.


Methinks you doth protest too much. And this attitude is the #1 reason I won't take my big dog to a dog park. All evidence to the contrary, you insist it's a safe place and that your dog is safe around bigger dogs. May be your choice, but your dog and the bigger dog that attacks him will be the ones paying for it.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

winniec777 said:


> +1000
> 
> 
> 
> Methinks you doth protest too much. And this attitude is the #1 reason I won't take my big dog to a dog park. All evidence to the contrary, you insist it's a safe place and that your dog is safe around bigger dogs. May be your choice, but your dog and the bigger dog that attacks him will be the ones paying for it.


In this one aspect, I try to treat dogs like people. I can only control my dogs behaviour, not any other dog. So if someone shows up with a dog that could hurt Winnie, I leave. Is that fair? Nah, not really. But I'd rather leave with an uninjured dog than at a vet office because of my 'pride.'

Let your littlies play with large dogs you KNOW and always supervise.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I agree. The thing that is the problem for me is that no matter how many dogs mine has played with (and after 4 different daycares and thousands of walks on dog-friendly beaches and parks over 6 years, it is literally thousands) and no matter how well I think I know her and no matter how many times I've seen how great she is playing with little dogs and puppies, I still don't trust her 100%. She's an animal and as such there will always be something unknowable about her. And it would kill me if she hurt another dog. So I've learned to accept that I can't take the risk of allowing her to play with strange dogs.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

I actually just decided the other day that I probably will not be frequenting my dog park anymore. While -I- watch Bella like a hawk while she's there - I think she's gained too much confidence from the dog park. She's been a great candidate for them now and under my supervision but not anymore and that is for the safety of not only my dog but other peoples dogs because I know that one day she'll piss off the wrong dog because she thinks she's a BA and that will be that. Not something I can can or am willing to risk.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

winniec777 said:


> She's an animal and as such there will always be something unknowable about her. And it would kill me if she hurt another dog.


Exactly, I mean, it's common sense. Dog's a dog and you have to respect it as *such*. It's not a child, a pony, unicorn or angel from heaven - dogs are only dogs just like we are only human. One bite can easily kill or devastate a smaller dog.
You can probably eliminate dog's prey drive and I'll bet that most pet/show dogs won't have any of it left in few hundred years time but that's IMO disrespectful to such amazing animal.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

im sorry.. i just have no sympathy here (aside from for the poor chi).... there is a reason dog parks are split. end of story. heres a scenario:
chihuahua comes on large dog side and my great dane who plays awesome with all dogs wants to play with her. she accidentally pounces on her and the dogs suffers injury that kills it..... whos fault is that? is it 50% my fault for letting my dog interact with dogs on HER side? is it ALL my dogs fault? is it NONE her fault? does it make my dog not suitable for the dog park?...... point blank, if the chi wasnt there it wouldnt have happened. if the small dog side is so unsuitable, find a different park or a different outlet for your dog. youre taking your OWN risks A- just entering the park with your dog, and B- putting your dog where it doesnt belong....


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## Bitca38 (Mar 29, 2011)

I've been reading this thread off and on since it started, and didn't plan on saying anything. I know dog parks can be a good experience for some, and if you choose to take your dog there than I hope you *truly* understand the risk you are taking.

I've only been to our local dog park 8 times in the past few months - and I thought it was great, besides from a few random growls or barks my dog was doing great and got along with most of the dogs there, if he didn't like a certain dog he'd walk / stay away. 

That was until Saturday, when my 47lb Springer Spaniel (so not small by any means) got into nasty fight with a much larger dog (not sure of the breed). I was watching him like a hawk and was within 10 feet of him the whole time and it happend in a blink of an eye. As I watched the larger dog nearly rip my dogs ear off while trying to break them apart (with not much help from the other owner) I decided that I could not deal with a) the emotional side of seeing my dog being hurt (besides believing his ear would be ripped off, I envisioned him dying right there), and b) knowing that I put him at risk by being ignorant that it wouldn't happen to my dog. 

To each their own, but don't believe for one second that just because you're right there nothing will happen, and when there are so many other ways to socialize and interact with other dogs why take the risk. And even if you are willing to accept the blame if something was to happen, I don't understand the willingness to take the risk.


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## AgentP (Dec 12, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> Didn't we just have a thread about this, and one of the posters here was upset about another dog getting rough with her small dog, and when I suggested she use the small dog side, her response was that she didn't want to because there aren't many dogs that use it. I still think it's irresponsible to own a small dog and NOT use the small dog side. I blame the Chih owner in this case equally, not the Husky owner 100%. If the Husky was being aggressive to big dogs, they should have left. But small dogs do NOT belong on a big dog side. They can trigger prey drive in even the nicest dog. And teh little dog will always lose.
> Chipinmom- If you want to protect your dog, USE THE SMALL DOG SIDE. It's unfair to large dog owners, and your small dogs to risk their lives by letting them on the big dog side. Do you understand prey drive? A yelp from a small dog, or a small dog running can trigger it in a normally friendly dog.


I disagree. What would you say then in an open off leash area? I take my small dog to our local fresh water pond every day, which is also a nature preserve and dogs are allowed to run free. We meet a ton of big dogs off leash and some have been playing too aggressively with her, trying to grab her. So I shouldn't walk my dog around the pond because she is little? That woman with the Husky should not have been there, i.e. her dog should not be off leash around other dogs if he is aggressive like that. 

The whole point to going to a dog run is for the dogs to be able to run and play. Including small ones. Hanging out in an area that is empty defeats that purpose.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

AgentP said:


> I disagree. What would you say then in an open off leash area? I take my small dog to our local fresh water pond every day, which is also a nature preserve and dogs are allowed to run free. We meet a ton of big dogs off leash and some have been playing too aggressively with her, trying to grab her. So I shouldn't walk my dog around the pond because she is little? That woman with the Husky should not have been there, i.e. her dog should not be off leash around other dogs if he is aggressive like that.
> 
> The whole point to going to a dog run is for the dogs to be able to run and play. Including small ones. Hanging out in an area that is empty defeats that purpose.


 open off leash areas that arent dog parks are completely different. are there rules saying your dog has to be dog friendly? what about the dog that is not and is leashed and an unleashed dog runs up to him? is that dog not allowed to walk around a pond because its not friendly? how is that fair? if he wasnt being friendly with the other dogs thats one thing, but the fact of the matter is the chi shouldnt have been there in the first place. 

also the whole point is the dog being able to run off leash and play.... you cant do that in the other area? who said they HAD to play with the other dogs? and if thats ultimately what you want, why cant you ask a few of the small dog owners "hey would you mind coming to the other side with me so our dogs can play together safely? im not comfortable with my little dog being here with all the big dogs, and i would like her to have some friends to play with." why is that so hard?


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## AgentP (Dec 12, 2011)

I think the onus lies entirely with the owner of the aggressive dog. I would expect an owner with a dog aggressive dog to walk said dog either only in areas where other dogs are usually leashed (neighborhood streets), or muzzle the dog when walking trails or parks etc. where dogs are expected to run around off leash.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

AgentP said:


> The whole point to going to a dog run is for the dogs to be able to run and play. Including small ones. Hanging out in an area that is empty defeats that purpose.


What's wrong with your dog running and playing with *YOU*. (and by the way...that is a collective you) We, the owner, should be the most important part of our dog's world...not a horde of loose dogs. Your dog should be getting exercise, playing and bonding with YOU...not random dogs they meet for an hour at a time. 

I teach CGC classes where I train and people wonder all of the time why their dogs don't want to pay attention to them when there are other dogs around. Most of the time...owners don't give their dogs a reason to pay attention to them when there are other dogs around. People just disconnect with their dogs when they are at the dog parks. What happened to playing with your dogs and interacting with them so you stimulate them and they find you rewarding and interesting?? 



> So I shouldn't walk my dog around the pond because she is little? That woman with the Husky should not have been there, i.e. her dog should not be off leash around other dogs if he is aggressive like that.


And by the way...no you shouldn't. It's your responsibility to keep your little dog safe just like it's my responsibility to keep my rottweilers safe from loose, aggressive dogs. We can't control others...but we can control what we do with our dogs. We have to do what we need to do to keep our dogs out of danger from numb nuts with poorly trained dogs.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

AgentP said:


> I think the onus lies entirely with the owner of the aggressive dog. I would expect an owner with a dog aggressive dog to walk said dog either only in areas where other dogs are usually leashed (neighborhood streets), or muzzle the dog when walking trails or parks etc. where dogs are expected to run around off leash.


You are making the false assumption that the larger dog has to be aggressive for the small dog to get hurt. In the OP yes the husky's owner should have left with their dog, but the larger argument here is about small dogs playing with large dogs. The small dogs can be injured, even killed, by a playful larger dog simply stepping on them with no ill-intent.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I am probably beating a dead horse here ... I cannot see any gray area ... If I have a dog no matter what the size and it is having a bad hair day ... I stay home. Why in doGs green earth would you want to jeopardize your own dogs life knowing that if it bites, maims, or kills another dog ... it is going to be labeled dangerous and more than likely die? 

If there is an idiot with a dog at the dog park and their dog is having that bad hair day ... leave. I am sorry ... but which human has the right to stay and which human should leave does not save anything but human pride IMHO ... the dog(s) life is what is at stake here. Forget the human pride!  Save an animals life.

Just had to get that off my chest. I have read this a million times over now.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Abbylynn said:


> Why in doGs green earth would you want to jeopardize your own dogs life knowing that if it bites, maims, or kills another dog ... it is going to be labeled dangerous and more than likely die?


Because a lot of people are in denial that their sweet babykins furkid has an issue. 

Not their dog...it's everyone's else's dog who makes their dog react like that. That other dog shouldn't have looked at their dog, that dog shouldn't have run up to their dog, their dog doesn't like black dogs, their dog doesn't like to share their toys with brown dogs...so forth and so on. Or...their dog "is just trying to play" as it humps everything in sight, or it's lunging and barking at other dogs. "Oh, people don't understand that my dog only wants to play...." No, jackass...your dog wants to tear into my dog's neck. Thus, bringing me back to the comment I made earlier...my job is to keep my dogs safe from Joe Q. Public at large. 

For those people wondering what I do if I do encounter loose dogs we don't know if I'm out and about in our parks where dogs are supposed to be leashed according to city law. I make my dogs sit...and I forcefully and loudly request that they leash their dogs. I don't move and I continue to loudly request they leash their dogs until they do so. I'm kind of a bitch like that...because my job is to keep my dogs safe.


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## AgentP (Dec 12, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> What's wrong with your dog running and playing with *YOU*. (and by the way...that is a collective you) We, the owner, should be the most important part of our dog's world...not a horde of loose dogs. Your dog should be getting exercise, playing and bonding with YOU...not random dogs they meet for an hour at a time.
> 
> I teach CGC classes where I train and people wonder all of the time why their dogs don't want to pay attention to them when there are other dogs around. Most of the time...owners don't give their dogs a reason to pay attention to them when there are other dogs around. People just disconnect with their dogs when they are at the dog parks. What happened to playing with your dogs and interacting with them so you stimulate them and they find you rewarding and interesting??
> 
> ...


I train my dog, I play with my dog but there is NO comparison to the joy of her romping with a fellow canine and running at 30 miles an hour. She lives for those walks around the pond where she can run ahead, turn around and speed back only to run ahead again, and play with other dogs. She would be truly a sorry dog if she had to live her life walking at my slow human pace all the time.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

AgentP said:


> I think the onus lies entirely with the owner of the aggressive dog. I would expect an owner with a dog aggressive dog to walk said dog either only in areas where other dogs are usually leashed (neighborhood streets), or muzzle the dog when walking trails or parks etc. where dogs are expected to run around off leash.


Ah, no, sorry. My dog deserves to enjoy hikes in the woods every bit as much as other dogs. There's a leash law for any area within city limits, including the local parks and forest trails. I always keep her leashed and expect other people to do the same. If they don't, then I expect them to control their dog and keep it away from mine.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

AgentP said:


> I disagree. What would you say then in an open off leash area? I take my small dog to our local fresh water pond every day, which is also a nature preserve and dogs are allowed to run free. We meet a ton of big dogs off leash and some have been playing too aggressively with her, trying to grab her. So I shouldn't walk my dog around the pond because she is little? That woman with the Husky should not have been there, i.e. her dog should not be off leash around other dogs if he is aggressive like that.
> 
> The whole point to going to a dog run is for the dogs to be able to run and play. Including small ones. Hanging out in an area that is empty defeats that purpose.


Personally, I wouldn't take my small dog to a place that has large dogs that I don't know well. But I just am not willing to take the risk.

And re the op-and small dog side of the DP being empty. Well, we know at least 2 people with small dogs were there, (OP and Chih), so they COULD have gone over there and the dogs would have had someone to play with, and the Chih would still be alive.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I disagree. What would you say then in an open off leash area? I take my small dog to our local fresh water pond every day, which is also a nature preserve and dogs are allowed to run free. We meet a ton of big dogs off leash and some have been playing too aggressively with her, trying to grab her. So I shouldn't walk my dog around the pond because she is little? That woman with the Husky should not have been there, i.e. her dog should not be off leash around other dogs if he is aggressive like that.


Well, the woman with Husky should not have been there, I wonder if the Chihuahua was thinking about how right his/her owner was during the ordeal. I doubt it, dogs can't think, all they can do is pay the price. Maybe we can call that some kind of a stupidity tax paid in full.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

AgentP said:


> She would be truly a sorry dog if she had to live her life walking at my slow human pace all the time.


Well, someday you both may be truly sorry when she meets that wrong dog at your pond. I would much rather have my dogs be walking along with me instead of the alternative when meeting a less than friendly or less than gentle dog.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Like I said: I can control my dogs behaviour, not others. (And most importantly, I can't control other dog owners)
I'm not putting her in a dangerous situation, 'fair' or 'unfair' to prove a bloody point. It's my _job_ to keep her safe. Wtf do I gain by seeing her ripped apart by another dog? I have no idea if other dogs are friendly or not, so if my gut tells me that a dog is not so nice, I leave.

Common sense, doesn't need to be a pages long debate. It's the same for all of us..We know _our_ dogs - not yours.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I am so happy that I am not a small dog owned by an idiot who cannot see beyond their own convenience. I am so happy that I don't have to be a small dog that is put at risk because my owner WANTS something that is less important to me then them. I am so happy that I don't have to die for my owners own pride.


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## Luna'sOwner (Apr 11, 2012)

It's terrible to read this, even more to have experienced it. Many owners are irresponsible in buying a dog, especially when it comes to the "cool" or "tough looking" breeds, like the Huskies, Rottweilers, Pitt Bulls etc. Having been a Rottie owner myself it frustrates me when people underestimate the need for regular exercise, consequent training and affection in the correct places. I think all we can do is keep creating the awareness that no dog is a toy, or a human. They have their own way of communicating, and we need to learn how to read the signs before getting any dog, and definitely a high energy, intelligent and commonly strong minded dog like a husky.


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## AgentP (Dec 12, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> Well, someday you both may be truly sorry when she meets that wrong dog at your pond. I would much rather have my dogs be walking along with me instead of the alternative when meeting a less than friendly or less than gentle dog.


I've owned several smaller dogs and they all lead a mostly off leash life. Where I grew up people walk their dogs on public land off leash mostly. It was never a problem. So I guess I'll take my chances.

Besides, with your logic I shouldn't even take her to that pond because most dogs are off leash there. My only option then would be to walk her along the city roads.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

AgentP said:


> It *was* never a problem. So I guess I'll take my chances.
> 
> .


Just please do use a great deal of caution. It is exactly THAT ^^^ which ends up being the famous last words. "It was never a problem" until it was. "I took my chances" and lost at the cost of my dogs life or health. Nobody here wants to see any dog get hurt or worse. We are all dog lovers here and many of us old timers have heard these words all too often at the peril of the dog. Everyone thinks "it won't happen to my dog because I am careful" but it might. Once it does, it is all over the the crying and all the finger pointing as to who is at fault, won't bring a dog back.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There has to be a balance between putting your dog (or yourself) at obvious risk and staying at home in bed with the covers pulled over your head, afraid to live. If you always thought about everything bad that could happen to your dog (especially small ones), you'd never leave the house, and even that's risky! I don't know if dog parks count as obvious risk. . .depends on the circumstances, I guess. I won't say that anyone who takes a small dog to a dog park is deliberately risking their dog's life.

Sure, my dogs may be at some risk every time I take them out of the house. But I think they're glad they don't belong to the person who stays at home under the covers.


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## PuppyL0ve (Apr 12, 2012)

This is completely heartbreaking. I feel so bad for the owner. The husky owner....what a jerk. How do people like that sleep at night?


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Okay....now we're not saying keep your dog locked up in the house because of risks they might die. Every time I take my dogs outside of the house...there's a risk of an incident. Every time I walk into a dog show/trial, there's the risk of an incident. Does it stop me, no...but I don't let my dog walk at the end of his leash with his nose up every dog's butt in that environment because I know dogs or people wouldn't appreciate it. I'm responsible and make my dog behave appropriately. I take the risk that I might die when I get into my car. It doesn't stop me from driving...but I'm also not going to drive 150 mph down I95 either. It's my responsibility to drive safely for myself and for others who share the road with me.

Here's a good "I'll take the risk" story I had years ago with my first rottie, Sam. We had a park that was fenced in about 150' from our house we lived in when Mr. Boats was active duty Coast Guard. It had baseball fields and the such that I let Sam go and run in because our little back yard was tiny. (This is before I got into all of the stuff I do with my dog.) We lived in an area that was wooded, but densely populated with houses. I knew there were deer in the area...but we never saw them during the day. We had lived there about 2 years at the time this happened. Mr. Boats and I were walking back to our house...about 200' feet away and Sam wasn't on leash. What could happen in 200'?? 

Well, a deer blasted out of the brush right in front of us and Sam took off like a f'ing rocket after that deer. We started screaming for Sam to come back...of course he didn't and he was right on the hocks of that deer. At the time, we didn't know that park was totally fenced in and we were freaking out he was going to chase that deer until the deer dropped and then probably kill it (that would have been a whole other can of worms with DEM.) We were convinced during those minutes of chaos Sam was gone. The deer flew out of the woods and took off without Sam behind him which freaked us out even more. We found him at the bottom of a small ravine in the wooded part of the park and he couldn't find a section that wasn't steep enough for him to climb out. Mr. Boats had to go down and bring him back up. The episode scared the ever living hell out of me...and still scares me to this day 11 years later. 200' from out house and we almost had a lost dog and/or a dead deer on our hands. So, you won't catch me ever letting my dogs off leash in any area that isn't contained by a fence. 

I know it's a different spin from encountering loose dogs....but don't ever think something won't happen because it "It was never a problem."


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

But we choose what risks we think are worth it. My dogs have taken off after deer, sure. They could get lost or fall down a ravine, sure (they aren't ever going to catch a deer, though. Fatties ). I still let them off-leash because I think the risk is worth the enrichment and exercise. I'm not going to stay home or keep my dog tied up because something might happen. That would be a paranoid overreaction, IMO.

Same reason some people go sailing, same reason some people go rockclimbing, same reason people go skydiving. . .they think the risk is worth the enjoyment.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Willowy said:


> But we choose what risks we think are worth it. My dogs have taken off after deer, sure. They could get lost or fall down a ravine, sure (they aren't ever going to catch a deer, though. Fatties ).


I have dogs that have the power, athleticism, and the endurance to successfully chase and kill deer if they so choose. So, I clearly will be a responsible dog owner and make sure mine aren't given the opportunity to do that. 

You guys all have fun talking about the joys of letting your dogs run off leash and I hope that nothing happens where we're going to be reading about it on here.  I'll catch you all on another thread. I'm out....


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Willowy said:


> But we choose what risks we think are worth it. My dogs have taken off after deer, sure. They could get lost or fall down a ravine, sure (they aren't ever going to catch a deer, though. Fatties ). I still let them off-leash because I think the risk is worth the enrichment and exercise. I'm not going to stay home or keep my dog tied up because something might happen. That would be a paranoid overreaction, IMO.
> 
> Same reason some people go sailing, same reason some people go rockclimbing, same reason people go skydiving. . .they think the risk is worth the enjoyment.


I feel the same way. For us, our dogs desire more than being inside or in the backyard or just walked on a leash. My collie certainly can't sprint at full speed within the boundaries of our backyard. I'm willing to take a little risk to let them do what they enjoy most.


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## flamefrost (Apr 4, 2012)

RIP to the little one.. Sad to hear that..

Same thing happend here a month ago.. There's always a woman walking with a Alaskan Malamute, sweetest dog in the world but not made for this climate since I live in a tropical island and the heat is painfull for the dog.. Anyways, I was doing my daily jog at night and say the woman with her dog, she crossed another dog a lab and out of nowhere I don't know how the alaskan turned a bit the labrador in the neck, he bit and didn't release.. Sadly the lab died in an instant, couldn't bear to see the owner ccry cause I know it's a bad feeling losing a pet.. The lab had no chance, police arrived, only said that since now on the dog had to wear a mouth protector (don't know exact name) and well since then I haven't seen the woman yet, it wasn't in a dog park tho, just plain in the street.. Sad things that can happen..


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Inga said:


> I am so happy that I am not a small dog owned by an *idiot* who cannot see beyond their own convenience. I am so happy that I don't have to be a small dog that is put at risk because my owner WANTS something that is less important to me then them. I am so happy that I don't have to die for my owners own pride.


Don't hold back Inga. How do you REALLY feel?


What may be a too much of a risk to all of you, is an everyday thing for me. The dog park is how my dog gets his exercise and play time. I'm not an IDIOT. I obviously know that there are risks when I take my 20lb dog in to play with bigger dogs. But he LIVES for that 1-2 hours a day where he can run free and enjoy being a DOG! I'm not about to take that away from him just because something _could_ happen. Just owning a dog is a risk everyday. Anything can happen at any time.

Those saying set up a playgroup or take him to daycare.. well the risks are the exact same in those places. Anytime you get a group of dogs together, there are risks. No matter if they are all small or all big or mixed. My dog can get hurt just as much by a dog his own size as he can by a bigger dog.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I would suggest that in a closed group, the risks are much lower. No unknown husky who is having a bad day is going to blast onto the scene at a play group. Or daycare.


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## bonesygirl (Mar 2, 2012)

I feel like some people hold on to this belief that in order for a dog to be a dog and to enjoy his/her life, they need to be let off leash in a pack to run around and play. I don't believe this to be necessarily true. My lab has never set foot in a dog park, and likely never will. She has friends that she gets to rough house/play with, dogs owned by people that I know and trust. She does get some offleash time at work, when that's not an option we go hiking with a twenty foot leash. No one can tell me my girl isn't enjoying her life. 
I think dog owners have a special responsibility to weigh the risks/rewards involved in everything our dogs do, because they aren't capable of making those decisions. I'm sure my dog would love to run loose around the neighbourhood and greet everyone she comes across, but she isn't capable of comparing the risks involved with such behaviour to the enjoyment she would get from it. So I make those decisions for her. A dog isn't capable of saying, 'well, I would love to go to the dogpark today, but I may get attacked by a strange dog so perhaps I shouldn't.' It's up to us to make those calls. And I will always put my dog's health/safety ahead of her possible enjoyment. 
Living anywhere, doing anything, has some risk associated with it. The difference between the risk I take when I leave my house and the risk I take letting my dog loose in a dogpark is which one of us pays the price when things go wrong.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

bonesygirl said:


> I feel like some people hold on to this belief that in order for a dog to be a dog and to enjoy his/her life, they need to be let off leash in a pack to run around and play. I don't believe this to be necessarily true. My lab has never set foot in a dog park, and likely never will. She has friends that she gets to rough house/play with, dogs owned by people that I know and trust. She does get some offleash time at work, when that's not an option we go hiking with a twenty foot leash. No one can tell me my girl isn't enjoying her life.
> I think dog owners have a special responsibility to weigh the risks/rewards involved in everything our dogs do, because they aren't capable of making those decisions. I'm sure my dog would love to run loose around the neighbourhood and greet everyone she comes across, but she isn't capable of comparing the risks involved with such behaviour to the enjoyment she would get from it. So I make those decisions for her. A dog isn't capable of saying, 'well, I would love to go to the dogpark today, but I may get attacked by a strange dog so perhaps I shouldn't.' It's up to us to make those calls. And I will always put my dog's health/safety ahead of her possible enjoyment.
> Living anywhere, doing anything, has some risk associated with it. The difference between the risk I take when I leave my house and the risk I take letting my dog loose in a dogpark is which one of us pays the price when things go wrong.


My dogs are the types who do need room to run off leash. They get FAR to pent up if they can't run full tilt for an hour or so. However it doesn't necessarily need to be with other dogs and definitely not in a dog park. To me, the dog park is the equivilant of Russian roulette. It's just far to risky and unpredictable a situation.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Bella is the type of dog that HAS to run. Be it on leash or off. There are several ways for a dog to get an outlet for their energy other than a dog park or off leash. Bella's FAVORITE thing to do is to pull the bike! Nothing gets her more tired or more excited than to go out and just run flat out in front of the bike and KEEPS her that way. Trips to the dog park where 5-10 minutes of OMGIWANTTOGOSEETHEOTHERDOGSTHEYARETHEABLSOLUTEBESTTHINGSINTHEWORLDLETMEOUTLETMEOUTLETMEOUT!!!! But once she got in there? She'd just run or walk around for a half hour following the other dogs.

I can tell you right now Bella doesn't care or probably even notice that she's on a leash on the bike. The only thing that matters is running. Hell, she's content to be on the 20ft tie out in the back yard (no fence for us) with her basketball or some other omgthisisthegreatesttoyintheworld object to her. A lot of times there doesn't even have to be a toy around - she just LOVES sitting in the yard in the sun and wind and that is a good enough day for her.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> I would suggest that in a closed group, the risks are much lower. No unknown husky who is having a bad day is going to blast onto the scene at a play group. Or daycare.


That's my point though. Even a well known and trusted Husky (or any other dog) can have a bad day and "snap" at any time. The risks are there no matter what situation your dog is in.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Niraya said:


> Bella is the type of dog that HAS to run. Be it on leash or off. There are several ways for a dog to get an outlet for their energy other than a dog park or off leash. Bella's FAVORITE thing to do is to pull the bike! Nothing gets her more tired or more excited than to go out and just run flat out in front of the bike and KEEPS her that way. Trips to the dog park where 5-10 minutes of OMGIWANTTOGOSEETHEOTHERDOGSTHEYARETHEABLSOLUTEBESTTHINGSINTHEWORLDLETMEOUTLETMEOUTLETMEOUT!!!! But once she got in there? She'd just run or walk around for a half hour following the other dogs.
> 
> I can tell you right now Bella doesn't care or probably even notice that she's on a leash on the bike. The only thing that matters is running. Hell, she's content to be on the 20ft tie out in the back yard (no fence for us) with her basketball or some other omgthisisthegreatesttoyintheworld object to her. A lot of times there doesn't even have to be a toy around - she just LOVES sitting in the yard in the sun and wind and that is a good enough day for her.


Ha, you ninja'd me... I was JUST going to say that a dog doesn't have to be off leash to RUN. The young'uns that can't go to the dog park are so happy running in front of the scooter that they go mental when they see me loading it into the car.


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## bonesygirl (Mar 2, 2012)

Niraya said:


> Bella is the type of dog that HAS to run. Be it on leash or off. There are several ways for a dog to get an outlet for their energy other than a dog park or off leash. Bella's FAVORITE thing to do is to pull the bike! Nothing gets her more tired or more excited than to go out and just run flat out in front of the bike and KEEPS her that way. Trips to the dog park where 5-10 minutes of OMGIWANTTOGOSEETHEOTHERDOGSTHEYARETHEABLSOLUTEBESTTHINGSINTHEWORLDLETMEOUTLETMEOUTLETMEOUT!!!! But once she got in there? She'd just run or walk around for a half hour following the other dogs.
> 
> I can tell you right now Bella doesn't care or probably even notice that she's on a leash on the bike. The only thing that matters is running. Hell, she's content to be on the 20ft tie out in the back yard (no fence for us) with her basketball or some other omgthisisthegreatesttoyintheworld object to her. A lot of times there doesn't even have to be a toy around - she just LOVES sitting in the yard in the sun and wind and that is a good enough day for her.


Agreed. I feel like it doesn't have to be offleash with a pack of dogs to be stimulating.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

LOL Yeah, good luck trying to get my dogs to run alongside a bike or scooter. Charlotte is terrified of them and runs the opposite direction, yanking you off, and Ma'ii tries to herd it! Biking with my dogs would result in no teeth!


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> My dog can get hurt just as much by a dog his own size as he can by a bigger dog.


OK, this is ridiculous. Yes, a small dog can hurt another small dog. But not accidentally. I'm at a dog park every day too...with my 40 pound dog. I have no idea why people insist on coming in there with tiny dogs, which absolutely are at risk of being simply trampled by bigger dogs. A chihuahua was killed at one of our dog parks that way, almost exactly a year ago. Here's the link. No aggression or prey drive involved, and there's no size limit, but the chi's spine was snapped regardless. Sad.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

chipinmom said:


> That's my point though. Even a well known and trusted Husky (or any other dog) can have a bad day and "snap" at any time. The risks are there no matter what situation your dog is in.


Yes. There are risks drawing your next breath. But the risk of a closed, known group of dogs is lower, and just as rewarding to the dog, as an open, unknown blend of unknown dogs and owners. 

Maybe I'm stupid, but I trust my best friend's 80 pound shep mix who has lived safely with small dogs her whole life much more than an unknown dog of similar size and appearance. Do you really think that dogs are so random that you can't make any predictions based on history? And based on history, I also trust my friend to read her dog and step in if she needs to more than I trust a stranger to do the same. 

It's not about eliminating risk, it's about assessing it and making choices.

I get it, the all-size side of a dog park is something you are committed to. I am not trying to change your mind. But for someone just reading this and considering risk-management, I'll weigh in.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Ha, you ninja'd me... I was JUST going to say that a dog doesn't have to be off leash to RUN. The young'uns that can't go to the dog park are so happy running in front of the scooter that they go mental when they see me loading it into the car.


Sorry Sassafras! You always put things so much more eloquently than I ever could I'm sad I beat you to it .


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Niraya said:


> Bella is the type of dog that HAS to run. Be it on leash or off. There are several ways for a dog to get an outlet for their energy other than a dog park or off leash. Bella's FAVORITE thing to do is to pull the bike! Nothing gets her more tired or more excited than to go out and just run flat out in front of the bike and KEEPS her that way. Trips to the dog park where 5-10 minutes of OMGIWANTTOGOSEETHEOTHERDOGSTHEYARETHEABLSOLUTEBESTTHINGSINTHEWORLDLETMEOUTLETMEOUTLETMEOUT!!!! But once she got in there? She'd just run or walk around for a half hour following the other dogs.
> 
> I can tell you right now Bella doesn't care or probably even notice that she's on a leash on the bike. The only thing that matters is running. Hell, she's content to be on the 20ft tie out in the back yard (no fence for us) with her basketball or some other omgthisisthegreatesttoyintheworld object to her. A lot of times there doesn't even have to be a toy around - she just LOVES sitting in the yard in the sun and wind and that is a good enough day for her.


My collie only has to trot to keep up with me when I run. I would have to sprint to even get her to run and I can't keep that up very long and it wouldn't be a fast run for her. Biking is not always an option where I live and there aren't many great places to bike around here anyways. She's certainly not interested in pulling a bike, she's a herding dog not a sled dog. No, it's not nearly the same as 20+ acres of open field and hiking trails where she is able to run as fast as she wants and watch and run circles around the other dogs. Which she will do for an hour and could go longer if we stayed longer. 

For some of us there really isn't a replacement for being off leash.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

HerdersForMe said:


> My collie only has to trot to keep up with me when I run. I would have to sprint to even get her to run and I can't keep that up very long and it wouldn't be a fast run for her. Biking is not always an option where I live and there aren't many great places to bike around here anyways. She's certainly not interested in pulling a bike, she's a herding dog not a sled dog. No, it's not nearly the same as 20+ acres of open field and hiking trails where she is able to run as fast as she wants and watch and run circles around the other dogs. Which she will do for an hour and could go longer if we stayed longer.
> 
> For some of us there really isn't a replacement for being off leash.


Actually, biking is an option for virtually ANY dog of any breed. My Great Pyrenees is a herding dog and I can't begin to tell you how much she LOVED going out and being leashed to the bike - not to pull but simply to just run next to it. I can't bike for 3-6 months out of the year because of winters (this past winter excluding). I live in a neighborhood where my only options of biking Bella consistently are the roads and on a bike path, so that's what we do. After about 5 miles she's very content to run right next to the bike for another 5 miles. My Pyrenees? She was happy to do 3-5 miles just running next to the bike. 

Unless you live in such a climate where 80% of the time it's pouring down rain with 50 mph winds or 100+ degrees with a double coated breed or you have a toy or mini breed of dog - biking or scootering is almost always an option. I've seen many a Collies running alongside bikes because running alongside a bike is so much better than walking unless you're literally doing 20 mile walks. Telling me that because you have a herding breed means you can't run the dog on a bike because it's "not a replacement for being off leash" is a bunch of bologna - no offense. That just screams an unwillingness to find a different outlet because "20 acres with dogs" is much more convenient, IMO.

I've run corgi's on my bike as well as my Siberian and Pyrenees. Two herding breeds and a working breed.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

There are dangers when running a dog on a bike/scooter, too. . .


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

As someone said before "they're dangers in just taking a breath".


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

Again, every choice we make for our dogs is a risk. Whether that risk is taking them to the dog park or having them run beside you while biking. While biking on a leash, at any time the dog can get caught up and get run over. 

Not everyone is a social butterfly either. I'm a very anti-social (re: SHY) person. I don't really know anyone in this area, with or without dogs, since I'm not from here. I'm not about to just go up to random people and say, "Oh look, our dogs get along, how about we set up a play date?" 

So, I choose the dog park. The risks are there, I know that. But I go at the same time everyday and there's almost always the same dogs there everyday. I've gotten to know them, I know how they act and I trust them. I watch like a hawk when a new dog is around and if I don't like what I see, I leave.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Niraya said:


> Actually, biking is an option for virtually ANY dog of any breed. My Great Pyrenees is a herding dog and I can't begin to tell you how much she LOVED going out and being leashed to the bike - not to pull but simply to just run next to it. I can't bike for 3-6 months out of the year because of winters (this past winter excluding). I live in a neighborhood where my only options of biking Bella consistently are the roads and on a bike path, so that's what we do. After about 5 miles she's very content to run right next to the bike for another 5 miles. My Pyrenees? She was happy to do 3-5 miles just running next to the bike.
> 
> Unless you live in such a climate where 80% of the time it's pouring down rain with 50 mph winds or 100+ degrees with a double coated breed or you have a toy or mini breed of dog - biking or scootering is almost always an option. I've seen many a Collies running alongside bikes because running alongside a bike is so much better than walking unless you're literally doing 20 mile walks. Telling me that because you have a herding breed means you can't run the dog on a bike because it's "not a replacement for being off leash" is a bunch of bologna - no offense. That just screams an unwillingness to find a different outlet because "20 acres with dogs" is much more convenient, IMO.
> 
> I've run corgi's on my bike as well as my Siberian and Pyrenees. Two herding breeds and a working breed.


Why do you assume we go to the dog park out of convenience? It's not really that convenient for us. It's a long drive and we go regardless of weather. We live in Wisconsin so hiking 3-4 miles in the winter isn't exactly convenient for us. The dogs love it however. Biking in the winter with dogs on leash doesn't sound that fun or safe to be honest. We'd pretty much be limited to city sidewalks and streets. Doesn't sound very fun for the dogs to me. 

Not to mention they would miss out on all the socialization they get. I go with my girlfriend and her sheltie. We also have many friends who frequent the park. We even know some people from our doggy daycare who go. They would much prefer to chase each other around than pull me on a bike. It definitely lets them release some of that herding drive too. 

So no running alongside a bike does not replace the 20+ acre dog park for us. And no we are not lazy as you seem to think. I don't see how letting a dog pull me on a bike is any less convenient?


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSK0PHe4jkw


herders can pull yes they can! my mom bikes with her BC....

There is also snow shoeing, skiijoring, sledding. So winter pulling sports can be done with all dogs. I have had BC's my whole life everyone enjoyed this!! Got that energy out. I even will take my moms bc out with me on a bike with my malamute. I would go a dog park maybe 1-2 a week tops for socialization.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

You seem to think I implied you were lazy? Unwillingness to learn or find a different outlet =/= lazy. I'm not sure how you got that at all from the post. You shot down biking with a herding breed simply because it's a herding breed and wouldn't "pull" so therefore wouldn't enjoy it. Biking with your dog isn't ALL about pulling. Some dogs enjoy pulling - others do not but I can tell you now that they enjoy it a lot more then walking - pulling or not.

You seem to think that a dog wouldn't enjoy being able to run as fast (or slow) as it wants alongside a bike but running as fast (or slow) at a dog park you think they enjoy? I did plenty of socialization without a dog park with my previous dog - I didn't even know what a dog park was because we didn't have one. I can tell you though I've seen PLENTY of dogs in a dog park that were VERY distressed - when their owner was confronted she said the dog was having fun and said their dogs enjoyed it. *shrug*

I don't bike in winter. Bella treadmills or I walk her 5-10 miles. Convenient in 10 degree weather? No. I don't get how you can say biking is "convenient"? or imply that it is lazy? The dog is working - be it running or pulling - how is that lazy or convenient? 

I'm pretty sure I'm not understanding your meaning


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Niraya said:


> As someone said before "they're dangers in just taking a breath".


Then what's the point here? Owners are idiots for exposing their dogs to some dangers but not to others, depending what your favorite "dangerous" activity is?


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Then what's the point here? Owners are idiots for exposing their dogs to some dangers but not to others, depending what your favorite "dangerous" activity is?


I didn't claim anyone was an idiot ? I could care less what any other person does with their dog. All I did was make an argument that there are OTHER activities that you can do WITH your dog instead of feeling that they're only "happy if they're running around off a leash with other dogs".


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

HerdersForMe said:


> She's certainly not interested in pulling a bike, she's a herding dog not a sled dog.


You never know until you try... I'm just gonna leave this here. That's my hound mix playing at being a sled dog.






And here's how she feels about it...


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

sassafras said:


> You never know until you try... I'm just gonna leave this here. That's my hound mix playing at being a sled dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aw, Sassafras! Maisy is so cute and amazing <3 thank you for sharing


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Way to go Maisy


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

Niraya said:


> I don't bike in winter. Bella treadmills or I walk her 5-10 miles. Convenient in 10 degree weather? No. I don't get how you can say biking is "convenient"? or imply that it is lazy? The dog is working - be it running or pulling - how is that lazy or convenient?
> 
> I'm pretty sure I'm not understanding your meaning


me either. Biking is hard work. When I do it on trails, There are some places, I can't even ride. I have to run the bike with my dog. I still get plenty of socialization, hiking with other owners and, go to dog parks once a week.


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

sassafras said:


> You never know until you try... I'm just gonna leave this here. That's my hound mix playing at being a sled dog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She is such a rock star!!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Heheh thanks, she is. <3

As long as I'm attention whoring for my dogs, here's some real ON "leash" RUNNING... these two don't need a dog park.  (I don't usually run on pavement, we were just using these little parking lots for gee-haw practice.)


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Heheh thanks, she is. <3
> 
> As long as I'm attention whoring for my dogs, here's some real ON "leash" RUNNING... these two don't need a dog park.  (I don't usually run on pavement, we were just using these little parking lots for gee-haw practice.)


haha! I love it! "good lord!"


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Just love seeing Maisy and Squash, it's never too much.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

My chihuahua loves to run. Any suggestions for how I can provide that for her. (Sadly she can't pull anything )


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> My chihuahua loves to run. Any suggestions for how I can provide that for her. (Sadly she can't pull anything )


Skates or a scooter or jogging. The dog doesn't have to pull to enjoy them. Like I said I had a Pyrenees that loved simply just being able to run with the bike.

Though I'd probably suggest jogging with your Chi or blading rather than biking. lol especially if she doesn't know to not stay out from under it.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Niraya said:


> Skates or a scooter or jogging. The dog doesn't have to pull to enjoy them. Like I said I had a Pyrenees that loved simply just being able to run with the bike.
> 
> Though I'd probably suggest jogging with your Chi or blading rather than biking. lol especially if she doesn't know to not stay out from under it.


Great, now I need to learn to jog  Good idea though, thanks!


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Great, now I need to learn to jog  Good idea though, thanks!


It's kinda like walking. Walking fast. But faster than fast walking. lol! I have successfully taught you how to jog. 

You're quite welcome .


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Jogging is bouncy and hard on the knees. And other body parts. . . Not for me!

I would expect that exercising a Chi wouldn't be too hard at all, LOL. Couple times up and down the block, if that.


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Niraya said:


> It's kinda like walking. Walking fast. But faster than fast walking. lol! I have successfully taught you how to jog.
> 
> You're quite welcome .


LOL! I really did laugh at that. Reminds me on Big Bang Theory when Sheldon 'learns to swim' from the internet.



Willowy said:


> Jogging is bouncy and hard on the knees. And other body parts. . . Not for me!
> 
> I would expect that exercising a Chi wouldn't be too hard at all, LOL. Couple times up and down the block, if that.


I think I must have a defective Chihuahua LOL! She can run in circles at full speed around our acre four times before she needs a five minute break..Then she goes again!


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Well, I'm glad you laughed  Since that was the point!


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## LenaCara (May 11, 2011)

We have a gentleman in our neighborhood that bikes with his Chihuahua for about 30 min a day. I think it’s perfect because the dog loves it and gets all his energy out. Besides if he were to switch directions, he is to small to pull him from the bike. I would love to do it with my dogs but at 30lb each, I know I would be gone at the first squirrel sighting.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Niraya said:


> You seem to think I implied you were lazy? Unwillingness to learn or find a different outlet =/= lazy. I'm not sure how you got that at all from the post.


Your claim was that we go to the dog park because it is more "convenient" for us instead of finding other outlets. Sure sounds like you implied we are lazy but in a "nice" way. We take our dogs to the park where they run off leash, they go to daycare, we take them for on leash walks, we play indoors and in the backyard, etc. They don't need more outlets. Going to the dog park is a unique experience that biking isn't going to replicate. We don't just do it because it exercises them. That's just one reason. 



Niraya said:


> You shot down biking with a herding breed simply because it's a herding breed and wouldn't "pull" so therefore wouldn't enjoy it. Biking with your dog isn't ALL about pulling. Some dogs enjoy pulling - others do not but I can tell you now that they enjoy it a lot more then walking - pulling or not.


I shot down biking for several reasons. 

1. It doesn't let my dog run or move about freely. My collie likes to run but she also likes to greet people and dogs, watch the birds in the trees, sniff every interesting smell, etc...Not to mention getting to chase each other around helps fulfill some of that herding drive. 
2. I don't live in a great area to bike. I'd be mostly limited to city sidewalks/streets. Plus there's usually snow on the ground 4-5 months out of the year here. 
3. I don't really need anymore outlets for exercise. 



Niraya said:


> You seem to think that a dog wouldn't enjoy being able to run as fast (or slow) as it wants alongside a bike but running as fast (or slow) at a dog park you think they enjoy? I did plenty of socialization without a dog park with my previous dog - I didn't even know what a dog park was because we didn't have one. I can tell you though I've seen PLENTY of dogs in a dog park that were VERY distressed - when their owner was confronted she said the dog was having fun and said their dogs enjoyed it. *shrug*


Trust me, our dogs aren't distressed at the park. Far from it...but thanks for the concern.



Niraya said:


> I don't bike in winter. Bella treadmills or I walk her 5-10 miles.


Well my dogs get to go to the dog park 12 months out of year. The only time we don't go is if there's a blizzard and we can't drive. I'm not about to stick my dog on a treadmill either... 



Niraya said:


> Convenient in 10 degree weather? No. I don't get how you can say biking is "convenient"? or imply that it is lazy? The dog is working - be it running or pulling - how is that lazy or convenient?


My point wasn't that biking is convenient. My point was that you can't make the claim that something is convenient for us because we do things differently than you do. Just like you can think taking the dogs to the park is more convenient, I could go around and make the claim that using a bike to exercise your dog is more convenient. Making those kinds of claims is pointless because we have no idea what the other person goes through to give their dogs that experience.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Going to the park IS way more convenient than investing the time into training your dog to bike or bikejor safely and spending the time and money to get the stuff you need to do it and learn how to train them properly. Taking Pip to the park is WAY more convenient than taking the youngsters scootering.

Convenient isn't a dirty word, nor is it a judgement. It's just a word that implies nothing more than relative effort. Honestly I think you inferred something that wasn't implied.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Going to the park IS way more convenient than investing the time into training your dog to bike or bikejor safely and spending the time and money to get the stuff you need to do it and learn how to train them properly. Taking Pip to the park is WAY more convenient than taking the youngsters scootering.
> 
> Convenient isn't a dirty word, nor is it a judgement. It's just a word that implies nothing more than relative effort. Honestly I think you inferred something that wasn't implied.


I'm not disagreeing with you sassafras, it does take effort (and worthwhile effort) to train a dog to run/bike/pull etc with you and going to the dog park would be more convenient. The dog park does serve an additional purpose though....the socializing. I'm not disagreeing with the risks though, at all, there are tons of risks that make it almost not worth it at all. 
In our case though we don't have a dog park yet, but we're due to get one in town soon. We also don't have many friends with dogs. Caeda LOVES being social, she loves meeting new dogs and people, it seems to be her favourite thing in the world. There is no amount of playing indoors, on a long line in the front yard, hiking or pulling (I don't dare bike with her, guaranteed she would re-injure me if I tried), laser play, etc that will ever replace her joy when she gets to play with another dog. We are lucky, we know of someone who runs an indoor "doggy social" every week, very well supervised, and all of the owners are there, which helps with her urge to play with others. Only 1 hour a week though. When the dog park goes in, I will go check it out, see who is hanging around and meet the other owners. If there are jerks there, I'll try to find a time where there aren't idiots there and hopefully let her run free and meet the odd (nice) dog or two while I watch her like a hawk. 

Basically all I'm saying is that there is no amount of exercise in the world that will ever completely replace a dog's urge to sniff and play with other dogs. Some of us don't have tons of friends with dogs and are well....kind of shy. At some point convenience becomes more necessary. A dog park is a good thing to at least try provided the dogs are being watched carefully. If our dog park turns out to be a Thunderdome, our search will go on.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Going to the park IS way more convenient than investing the time into training your dog to bike or bikejor safely and spending the time and money to get the stuff you need to do it and learn how to train them properly. Taking Pip to the park is WAY more convenient than taking the youngsters scootering.
> 
> Convenient isn't a dirty word, nor is it a judgement. It's just a word that implies nothing more than relative effort. Honestly I think you inferred something that wasn't implied.


Going to the dog park is not free. We spend time and money driving the dogs over to the park. Gas is not cheap these days. Also we have to pay for a license to even go the park. We trained our dogs to have excellent recall and obedience so we could safely let them off leash. It's not like we just let them off leash from Day 1 and ignore them the rest of the time we're there. We consistently reinforcing their recalls and understand what their limits are. We spend the entire time there walking hiking trails, so it's not like we're just standing around doing nothing while they run around. We take them there all year round unless we literally cannot get the car out of the driveway due to snow. 

I certainly don't think one is more convenient than the other. Everything is relative to each person's situation. I'm not passing judgement on you for what you do with your dogs and claiming it is more convenient than what I do with my dogs. I would hope you do the same.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

HerdersForMe said:


> I certainly don't think one is more convenient than the other. Everything is relative to each person's situation. I'm not passing judgement on you for what you do with your dogs and claiming it is more convenient than what I do with my dogs. I would hope you do the same.


Um... I'm not passing judgment on ANYONE, and I don't think Niraya was, either. That was kind of the _whole point_ of my post you quoted, if you had read all the way to the end without ascribing motivation to me. 

I take my young dogs scootering and I take Pip to the dog park. And I assure you, it is far, far more convenient for me to take Pip to the park than take the young dogs scootering. I'd rather throw Pip in the car and drive to the dog park (which I also have to pay a fee for btw), go for a hike, throw him back in the car and drive home than load up the scooter and youngsters, drive to the state park, check to see if the turkeys or deer are around, check to see if there's anyone around walking their dogs, get everyone dressed and everything hooked up, check feet and skin, go on a run, come back, get everything unhooked and everyone undressed, check feet and skin again, load up the car, drive home and unload, and check the scooter over. 

Do I think I am somehow shorting Pip because I find exercising him more convenient? No. It is what it is. 

My only point in even posting the post you quoted was to point out that convenience doesn't equal bad and that I feel you inferred a negative judgment that wasn't implied. I'm not sure how explicitly stating so ended up making you feel judged.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Sassafras, I love you. Thank you!


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## Jpepper (Nov 11, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> Didn't we just have a thread about this, and one of the posters here was upset about another dog getting rough with her small dog, and when I suggested she use the small dog side, her response was that she didn't want to because there aren't many dogs that use it. I still think it's irresponsible to own a small dog and NOT use the small dog side. I blame the Chih owner in this case equally, not the Husky owner 100%. If the Husky was being aggressive to big dogs, they should have left. But small dogs do NOT belong on a big dog side. They can trigger prey drive in even the nicest dog. And teh little dog will always lose.
> Chipinmom- If you want to protect your dog, USE THE SMALL DOG SIDE. It's unfair to large dog owners, and your small dogs to risk their lives by letting them on the big dog side. Do you understand prey drive? A yelp from a small dog, or a small dog running can trigger it in a normally friendly dog.


I completely agree with this. That Chi should have never and I repeat never been in the big dog park. She risked her dogs life and the dog paid the price by avoiding warning signs posted at the park.


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## Jpepper (Nov 11, 2011)

I'm curious as to know why exactly this owner continued to leave her dog in the big dog section after knowing for certain that the husky is aggressive. She played with fire and got burnt. Both ignorant owners in my opinion.


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## Jpepper (Nov 11, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> Yes, that thread was mine actually. It's not that _hardly_ anyone uses the small dog section, NO ONE uses it. It's way too small. Actually, I'd say it's such a small area that it wouldn't be safe to have more than a couple dogs in there at once without them getting irritated with eachother.
> 
> And I'm sorry, but I don't blame the Chihuahua's owner AT ALL! This was not her fault in any way. That Husky should not have been there in the first place. And I would say the exact same thing if it had of been a little dog attacking a big dog, a little dog attacking another little dog or a big dog attacking another big dog. If you know your dog is aggressive (and believe me, this owner knew), then don't bring him to the park.
> 
> Also, I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again. I think it is a WONDERFUL (and smart) idea to condition and socialize your dog with other dogs of ALL sizes. I DO NOT want my dog scared of big dogs ever just because I chose to never let him around them. That being said, you have to watch your dog at all times no matter how big or small he/she is. If your dog is being aggressive, leave. If you notice your dog is getting picked on too much, leave. Little and big dogs CAN and DO play together very well (most of the time). *99% of the time it is the owners ignorance and stupidity that allows any problems to get out of hand.*


So you said you don't blame the Chi owner at all yet you made this statement afterwords..... Which one is it? Sounds like ignorant owner to me and partially if not fully her fault because the situation could have been avoided entirely.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

sassafras, reread this statement, the one that originally bugged me:



Niraya said:


> Telling me that because you have a herding breed means you can't run the dog on a bike because it's "not a replacement for being off leash" is a bunch of bologna - no offense. That just screams an unwillingness to find a different outlet because "20 acres with dogs" is much more convenient, IMO.


Then you say to me:



sassafras said:


> Going to the park IS way more convenient than investing the time into training your dog to bike or bikejor safely and spending the time and money to get the stuff you need to do it and learn how to train them properly.


There's no way for any of you to know what is more convenient to me. It doesn't matter if you mean it in an offensive way or not. Something may be more or less convenient _for you_ but that doesn't mean the same applies to everyone. Biking with your dog may be completely different than it is to someone else. Same with going to the dog park. You have no idea how much time we invest in taking our dogs to the park and how much time we spent training them so they are safe off leash. And yes we also have to check our dogs fur for ticks after as well because our dog park is 20+ acres of fields of tall grass and wooded areas with hiking trails. Their time outdoors also adds to the time we need to groom them. As you can imagine a rough collie is no picnic to groom after she's been running around in the woods. 

So I'll say it again. Biking with my dogs would not be a replacement for the experience they get at the dog park. It has nothing to do with it being more or less convenient than anything else or because we are unwilling to find an alternative. We do it because it's time off leash where they can run around freely, great socialization with dogs and people, they get a little closer to nature, we can do it all year round, and of course because they love going. And no it's not a "bunch of bologna ".


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## Jpepper (Nov 11, 2011)

chipinmom said:


> Niraya, I completely understand prey drive. And I DID say that it wasn't the Husky's fault. But I think I need to point out _again_ that this Husky wasn't just going after the small dogs. He was going after EVERY dog. Small, big and bigger than him. And not in a playful manner either.
> 
> I understand what spotted nikes is saying. YES, it is our choice to bring our smaller dogs into the all-dog area (it is not called big dog area here. It is meant for all WELL BEHAVED dogs of all sizes). And because of that choice, we need to be prepared that ANYTHING can happen. BUT! That doesn't excuse someone allowing their dog aggressive dog (no matter the breed or size) to remain in the park when it is continuously attacking other dogs.
> 
> And the Chihuahua's owner had no way of knowing this was going to happen. The Husky was off on the other side of the park then all of a sudden just came out of nowhere and grabbed her dog. There was no time to do anything.


Again.... Why would you put your dog into a fenced off area with other large dogs and you haven't fully inspected the other dogs in the park? Heck take a look around before you just throw your dog to the wolves so to speak.

She had a way of knowing she just dismissed the idea.


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## Jpepper (Nov 11, 2011)

I own a couple lacy dogs and they have such an extreme prey drive it's ridiculous I won't even let them socialize with a toy breed because of knowing what could happen in a split second.

prey drive in its truest form” is made up as an inevitable sequence; search, eye-stalk, chase, grab bite, and kill bite.

Heck they already rough up 350lb hogs..... It's not telling what would happen with a 3-8lb dog in just that split second.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

HerdersForMe said:


> There's no way for any of you to know what is more convenient to me. It doesn't matter if you mean it in an offensive way or not. Something may be more or less convenient _for you_ but that doesn't mean the same applies to everyone. Biking with your dog may be completely different than it is to someone else. Same with going to the dog park. You have no idea how much time we invest in taking our dogs to the park and how much time we spent training them so they are safe off leash. And yes we also have to check our dogs fur for ticks after as well because our dog park is 20+ acres of fields of tall grass and wooded areas with hiking trails. Their time outdoors also adds to the time we need to groom them. As you can imagine a rough collie is no picnic to groom after she's been running around in the woods.
> 
> So I'll say it again. Biking with my dogs would not be a replacement for the experience they get at the dog park. It has nothing to do with it being more or less convenient than anything else or because we are unwilling to find an alternative. We do it because it's time off leash where they can run around freely, great socialization with dogs and people, they get a little closer to nature, we can do it all year round, and of course because they love going. And no it's not a "bunch of bologna ".


I don't think you're understanding my posts, and at this point I'm not sure you're even reading them. All "convenient" means is that something fits in well with a person's needs, activities, or plans, and it certainly seems that going to the dog park is more convenient for you than biking with dogs by YOUR own description of what fits in with your needs, activities and plans. But since it seems you are determined to be insulted and infer judgment and criticism no matter what I say, this is my last attempt to try to assure you that none was implied. Take it as you will. Convenient isn't a dirty curse word. *shrug*


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

My original post about biking was in response to this:


bonesygirl said:


> I feel like some people hold on to this belief that in order for a dog to be a dog and to enjoy his/her life, they need to be let off leash in a pack to run around and play.


I provided a different point of view that a dog in fact does not need to be off leash with a bunch of dogs to be truly happy. Sassafras gave more proof that (and said more eloquently than I ever could) not just the traditional "sled" dogs can run with/pull a bike and find immense joy and happiness in it and it doesn't matter the breed or what the dog was bred to do.



Niraya said:


> Bella is the type of dog that HAS to run. Be it on leash or off. There are several ways for a dog to get an outlet for their energy other than a dog park or off leash. Bella's FAVORITE thing to do is to pull the bike! Nothing gets her more tired or more excited than to go out and just run flat out in front of the bike and KEEPS her that way. Trips to the dog park where 5-10 minutes of OMGIWANTTOGOSEETHEOTHERDOGSTHEYARETHEABLSOLUTEBESTTHINGSINTHEWORLDLETMEOUTLETMEOUTLETMEOUT!!!! But once she got in there? She'd just run or walk around for a half hour following the other dogs.
> 
> I can tell you right now Bella doesn't care or probably even notice that she's on a leash on the bike. The only thing that matters is running. Hell, she's content to be on the 20ft tie out in the back yard (no fence for us) with her basketball or some other omgthisisthegreatesttoyintheworld object to her. A lot of times there doesn't even have to be a toy around - she just LOVES sitting in the yard in the sun and wind and that is a good enough day for her.



This is your post responding to mine about biking.


HerdersForMe said:


> My collie only has to trot to keep up with me when I run. I would have to sprint to even get her to run and I can't keep that up very long and it wouldn't be a fast run for her. Biking is not always an option where I live and there aren't many great places to bike around here anyways. She's certainly not interested in pulling a bike, she's a herding dog not a sled dog. No, it's not nearly the same as 20+ acres of open field and hiking trails where she is able to run as fast as she wants and watch and run circles around the other dogs. Which she will do for an hour and could go longer if we stayed longer.
> 
> For some of us there really isn't a replacement for being off leash.


In this post you don't say how much training or other activities that you do with your dogs. You merely said that a bike wouldn't work for you because she's a herder, not interested in pulling because she's not a "sled" dog, there aren't "many great places to bike" there and so a huge park is better and that running with a bike wouldn't replace being off leash.

Since my responding post is what you took offense to I will clarify; 

This is my responding post: 


Niraya said:


> Actually, biking is an option for virtually ANY dog of any breed. My Great Pyrenees is a herding dog and I can't begin to tell you how much she LOVED going out and being leashed to the bike - not to pull but simply to just run next to it. I can't bike for 3-6 months out of the year because of winters (this past winter excluding). I live in a neighborhood where my only options of biking Bella consistently are the roads and on a bike path, so that's what we do. After about 5 miles she's very content to run right next to the bike for another 5 miles. My Pyrenees? She was happy to do 3-5 miles just running next to the bike.
> 
> Unless you live in such a climate where 80% of the time it's pouring down rain with 50 mph winds or 100+ degrees with a double coated breed or you have a toy or mini breed of dog - biking or scootering is almost always an option. I've seen many a Collies running alongside bikes because running alongside a bike is so much better than walking unless you're literally doing 20 mile walks. Telling me that because you have a herding breed means you can't run the dog on a bike because it's "not a replacement for being off leash" is a bunch of bologna - no offense. That just screams an unwillingness to find a different outlet because "20 acres with dogs" is much more convenient, IMO.
> 
> I've run corgi's on my bike as well as my Siberian and Pyrenees. Two herding breeds and a working breed.


It was not made as a judgement against you at all. I in no way implied that you were lazy (coincidence does not equal lazy [all of the time]) and I didn't mean what I said as an offense, either. 

Based off of the information you presented me with in your post - I gathered that you wrote off biking simply because your dog cannot "run off leash" of her own volition so therefore the dog obviously would not enjoy biking simply because of that. 

Since my biking post was made in response to people being of the mindset "all dogs that can't be off leash and running with a pack of dogs aren't truly happy" that's how I took your post as you being of that mindset and discounting biking as a credible form of exercise without having done it (I don't know if you have or have not you didn't say) and stating you have a herding breed was an excuse to which I stated you (general) had an "unwillingness to learn of a different outlet". How do you REALLY know it's not just another activity she enjoys?

Re: places to bike - I run Bella on bike paths or the road. It's not IDEAL for her (joints) but I live in the city.

This was a stupid long post and if you still think after my attempt at explaining I still meant some ill will about the activities you do than I really don't know what to tell you. Hopefully all of the quotes and explanations will give you a better idea.


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## Jpepper (Nov 11, 2011)

I truly believe all of my dogs are much happier off leash running the country side and woods rather then on lead. Only time my dogs are truly happy on lead is while tracking a wounded animal.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

HerdersForMe said:


> Not to mention they would miss out on all the socialization they get. I go with my girlfriend and her sheltie. We also have many friends who frequent the park. We even know some people from our doggy daycare who go. They would much prefer to chase each other around than pull me on a bike. It definitely lets them release some of that herding drive too.


The socialization is why I stopped taking my dogs to the dog park. They weigh 45 and 75 lbs so they aren't chi's.. But both have been attacked by dogs at the dog park.. 

Kaya by a weimaraner that attacked her, and after being pulled off by it's owner who says it had never done that before, it charged all the way back across the park and did it again.. And Hope by two very large white GSD's that once let in terrorized any dog that came near..

My dogs don't need socialization like that. Better to not be off leash at all than be attacked occasionally by unstable dogs with even more unstable owners.



> I don't see how letting a dog pull me on a bike is any less convenient?


I see how, at least for me. It's less convenient (more effort) to have to buy a bike, buy all gear helmet, pads for knees and elbows etc., less convenient to have to be in shape to peddle it, and less convenient to have to go buy the gear for the dog, and less convenient to train the dog not to wreck me when the first squirrel darts across the street.. Much more convenient to go to a dog park, it's even more convenient to drive 250 miles to my fenced acreage and turn them loose than to do the bike thing..


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm on a road trip across the country right now and since Miss Mandy has some serious ideas about pooping on leash (not to mention in the desert ... it's not even possible to poop if there's no grass ... don't you know?:frusty I took her to the first dog park ever. When we came there, Mandy walking nicely on a loose leash at my side along the outside of the fence towards the gate, a lady with two shelties in the park looked at me and asked if she was "nice" ... Then exclaimed "Oh no ... it is agressive" as Mandy stood perfectly still, sideways, along the fence while one of her shelties was growling and barking so the spittle flew towards Mandy. I looked at the dogs and her and finally answered, that "Well, MY dog is fine, but YOUR dog is agressive so I can't bring mine in". The lady had a look of shock on her face as she looked down on the dogs and ... I suspect ... for the first time actually saw what was happening. HER dog was agressive while my rottweiler was trying to diffuse the situation. Someone else who was on his way out of the park laughed out loud at the spectacle ... she honestly never saw her dog as the agressive one ...
I waited until the park was empty before I walked in with Mandy ... Just in case. lol

Oh ... and when Mandy has play dates with other dogs, she'd rather 'play' with me than any dog. NOTHING beats playing (which in reality is training, lol) with mama ... not even the doggie friends we have off leash walks with in the woods.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Another small dog killed by larger dog in Chicago area dog park yesterday (breeds not necessary) Larger dog was owned by police officer, his own dog not a k9. He took off but they got his picture with dog and he turned himself in later. 

Saw it on TV news this morning. Apology it was not at dog park it happened on the beach.

http://www.chicagonow.com/steve-dales-pet-world/2012/04/dog-killed-at-chicago-dog-beach/


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

TxRider said:


> The socialization is why I stopped taking my dogs to the dog park.
> My dogs don't need socialization like that. Better to not be off leash at all than be attacked occasionally by unstable dogs with even more unstable owners.


That's why I quit going to the dog park. I would only ever go to the small side but people would still bring their northern breeds and once even a giant St. Bernard over to the small side. Yeah, that never went over will all the little dogs like mine that would freeze or hide, petrified with fear. Luckily none of the big dogs got within striking distance because I was always nearby to pick her up and scare off the big dogs with a yell. I finally decided it wasn't worth it to argue my right of way in the small dog section and yell at the large dog owners to leave when they'd refuse after being asked nicely. Better safe than sorry. So I just walk my dog on leash daily and take her to pet supply stores on weekends so she can be the attention hog that she is with other customers and the store employees. She also gets to run off leash for a brief period in the yard behind my apartment along with her two pug mix boyfriends that live in the next apartment. I recently bought a bike for myself. Now I'm researching which pet bike basket would be the best to put on my bike to take her on rides with me when I need to exercise. That way when I need exercise she won't be left at home alone and she'll get some fresh air to sniff if nothing else.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

At work last week a Medical tech was telling me that she was so excited as she had gotten a Silky Terrier puppy. She was proudly telling me that she takes her pup to the dog park and they LOVE it. I asked if there is a small dog side and she said "yes, but I don't go in there as there are never any dogs in it." I couldn't help but tell her a few of the recent small dog death stories. She too said "I will take my chances as she LOVES it." I said, "oh, that is sort of sad news, it isn't YOUR chances you are taking, it is your pups." The thing is, there would be dogs in the small area if someone would start it. Others show up, you could encourage them into the small dog area with you. 

I am a large dog person but I am sure that if I ever do get a small dog, I won't "risk it" by taking it to a place where large dogs are running loose and playing rough. Not worth it.


That story on the beach is annoying mostly because of the way the Pit bull type dog owner acted. He stayed after the small dog was taken to the vet and chatted with other people? He allowed his dog to continue playing after it killed some other dog? All the people working their butts off trying to show that Pit Bulls and other "dangerous dogs" can be safe with the right owners get taken down 10 steps again because of this fool. The fact that he is an off duty police officer really makes it all the worse. Shame on him. 

I have seen all too often where a small dog is acting aggressively and the small dog owners are laughing about it but as soon as the large dog tries to defend itself they are ready to crusify the large dog and it's owner and everyone with a similar breed. Not saying that is what happened in that story. Just a fact that responsibility is shared in these events.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Inga, how sad that she is willing to risk it even after you explained about the recent deaths. People like that shouldnt own dog. Hope nothing ever happens to it.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

I have my thoughts and opinions on dog parks but more importantly I now carry a fairly large knife on my person whenever I take my dog on a walk or whatever. Unfortunately far too many ignorant dog owners in my area, and primarily pit bull owners on top of that, a recipe for disaster if you ask me.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> I have my thoughts and opinions on dog parks but more importantly I now carry a fairly large knife on my person whenever I take my dog on a walk or whatever. Unfortuanetly far too many ignorant dog owners in my area, and primarily pit bull owners as well.


I'm confused...

Did you really just say you'd stab a dog or an owner?


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

Niraya said:


> I'm confused...
> 
> Did you really just say you'd stab a dog or an owner?


I'm not saying I'm going to be wildly stabbing dogs if that's what you're insinuating. A number of people's dogs and even themselves have had encounters with loose aggressive dogs, and I just rather be safe than sorry. Just a few years ago a neighbors pit mix got loose, and went after another neighbors pug who was just walking it past my house (on leash of course), when the other dog went after the pug. Fortunately a local contractor was working on another neighbors steps (masonry) and he stepped in. Needless to say the pit mix didn't survive, but at least the older ladies pug was saved, and the woman only suffered minor injuries, stitches etc


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> I'm not saying I'm going to be wildly stabbing dogs if that's what you're insinuating. A number of people's dogs and even themselves have had encounters with loose aggressive dogs, and I just rather be safe than sorry. Just a few years ago a neighbors pit mix got loose, and went after another neighbors pug who was just walking it past my house (on leash of course), when the other dog went after the pug. Fortunately a local contractor was working on another neighbors steps (masonry) and he stepped in. Needless to say the pit mix didn't survive, but at least the older ladies pug was saved, and the woman only suffered minor injuries, stitches etc


You know there are other ways to get a dog to back off without killing them.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

> ---Quote (Originally by Niraya)---
> I'm confused...
> 
> Did you really just say you'd stab a dog or an owner?
> ...


That's what you originally said before editing. I actually didn't think you'd "wildly be stabbing dogs". I can actually tell you that you do not have to stab a dog to get it to quit attacking. I can also say that stabbing a dog will not always end a fight but will just as often escalate it and you could just as easily put more than just that one dog that was being attacked at risk. Unless of course you're stabbing with the intent to kill - then I'm pretty sure any dog owner that saw this would be mortified by your actions that you'd rather stab a dog than take an appropriate course of action.

And a civilian does not have the same right as a police officer. Just because a "police officer had to put down a dog" does not mean that you can just euthanize any dog because you -thought- it was being aggressive or even if it was I'm pretty sure since it didn't attack YOU or bite you, it wouldn't hold up as being in your right to have stabbed or shot the dog.

"I thought the persons dog was being aggressive when I saw it running down the street towards me from 100 yards away so to protect my dog I shot it" unfortunately that wouldn't hold up in a court of law.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

RCloud said:


> You know there are other ways to get a dog to back off without killing them.


There absolutely is, the contractor which was a large guy, couldn't get the other dog off or to back off. It continued to attack, got back onto the dog, and that's when he had to use his 6' level. Everyone was saddened by the incident, but also relieved everyone else was ok including the pug.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

Niraya said:


> That's what you originally said before editing. I actually didn't think you'd "wildly be stabbing dogs". I can actually tell you that you do not have to stab a dog to get it to quit attacking. I can also say that stabbing a dog will not always end a fight but will just as often escalate it and you could just as easily put more than just that one dog that was being attacked at risk. Unless of course you're stabbing with the intent to kill - then I'm pretty sure any dog owner that saw this would be mortified by your actions that you'd rather stab a dog than take an appropriate course of action.
> 
> And a civilian does not have the same right as a police officer. Just because a "police officer had to put down a dog" does not mean that you can just euthanize any dog for any reason.
> 
> "I thought the persons dog was being aggressive when I saw it running down the street towards me from 100 yards away so to protect my dog I shot it" unfortunately that wouldn't hold up in a court of law.


Don't take me for a fool, i would never do anything to anyone's dog because it was chasing me or charging at me. just the other day I had a lab chase me on my mountain bike. I simply rode back to it's owner, he put the dog back on the leash, and all was well.

If I am being attacked by an aggressive dog, I have every right to protect myself and my property. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same way.

And to be clear, if that man hadn't done what he did, that poor ladies dog would have been killed, and she probably would have been seriously injured trying to save her dog and to fend the other dog off. Police were called, they said they would have done the same, so idk.


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## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

LowPooch said:


> Don't take me for a fool, i would never do anything to anyone's dog because it was chasing me or charging at me. just the other day I had a lab chase me on my mountain bike. I simply rode back to it's owner, he put the dog back on the leash, and all was well.
> 
> If I am being attacked by an aggressive dog, I have every right to protect myself and my property. I'm sorry if you don't feel the same way.


I'm not convinced that you know what an aggressive dog is.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

Moxie said:


> I'm not convinced that you know what an aggressive dog is.


When it's mouth is around my arm or leg or dog, at that point I'm labeling it as aggressive.


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

My initial thought when I started reading this thread was that the husky owner was definitely to blame, because I've been in dog parks with complete idiots to be blunt. However, after reading what Niraya and sassafras wrote, I tend to agree that both owners are at fault. The closest dog park to my house only has one enclosure, not a small and large dog area and even I am oober-aware of other dogs and owners that come in. As soon as I see a dog acting insane on the leash before they're even let off, I usually leave. The husky's owner shouldn't have been so complacent, but on the flip-side I think the Chi's owner should have been more vigilant. Especially if her dog is smaller than the Husky's toys probably are. It's called being a responsible pet owner.



TxRider said:


> My dogs don't need socialization like that. Better to not be off leash at all than be attacked occasionally by unstable dogs with even more unstable owners.


I concur. We used to take my parents' dog to the dog park when he was younger and had both negative and positive experiences. Some days it was great and others not so much. I generally shy away from them with my dogs, though I have been a couple times with Colby just for the sake of having something else to do besides go on a walk. She doesn't care about other dogs unless they're near her ball, in which case she would most certainly fight to the death if I allowed it. I think it's extremely rare and maybe even impossible to go to a dog park and find an entirely great group of dogs who all get along.

Here's a concept: enroll your dog in obedience/agility/training class. Meet other dog owners there. Plan play dates.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> There absolutely is, the contractor which was a large guy, couldn't get the other dog off or to back off. It continued to attack, got back onto the dog, and that's when he had to use his 6' level. Everyone was saddened by the incident, but also relieved everyone else was ok including the pug.


And how exactly was he trying to get the dog to back off?


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

Well at one point the dog had the pug in it's mouth, thrashing, the man ran over, and grabbed its head to stop the thrashing. Got the dogs still, used his hand and was trying to coax the dogs mouth open. Tough to tell if it was working or not, was happening quite fast. The pit released, ran back to its yard, the guy tried "shooing" it away while asking if the lady was alright, she had blood all over her, the pit returned. Got past the man, back onto the pug, he tried the same thing, didn't work, ran over got his level, and ended it. Not sure what you're attempting to prove, that this dog was somehow not "aggressive" or what happened wasn't justified? Please. 

Let's move on already. It was a sad and violent day, but it could have been worse. The pug is fine, has scaring and a piece missing from its ear but other than that it's the same dog it was.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> Well at one point the dog had the pug in it's mouth, thrashing, the man ran over, and grabbed its head to stop the thrashing. Got the dogs still, used his hand and was trying to coax the dogs mouth open. Tough to tell if it was working or not, was happening quite fast. The pit released, ran back to its yard, the guy tried "shooing" it away while asking if the lady was alright, she had blood all over her, the pit returned. Got past the man, back onto the pug, he tried the same thing, didn't work, ran over got his level, and ended it. Not sure what you're attempting to prove, that this dog was somehow not "aggressive" or what happened wasn't justified? Please.
> 
> Let's move on already. It was a sad and violent day, but it could have been worse. The pug is fine, has scaring and a piece missing from its ear but other than that it's the same dog it was.


It is sad, but that doesn't mean that something can't be learned by talking about it. From your account, this seems totally preventable. Unfortunately, this man (and everyone else present) didn't know how to handle the situation.



LowPooch said:


> I have my thoughts and opinions on dog parks but more importantly I now carry a fairly large knife on my person whenever I take my dog on a walk or whatever. Unfortunately far too many ignorant dog owners in my area, and primarily pit bull owners on top of that, a recipe for disaster if you ask me.


Please tell me you're not taking your miniature dachshund and a "fairly large knife" to the dog park. This whole thread is about _preventing _injuries!


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

begemot said:


> Please tell me you're not taking your miniature dachshund and a "fairly large knife" to the dog park. This whole thread is about _preventing _injuries!


And then suddenly you realize why I said previously I was confused when they implied they were willing to stab a dog!


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> Well at one point the dog had the pug in it's mouth, thrashing, the man ran over, and grabbed its head to stop the thrashing. Got the dogs still, used his hand and was trying to coax the dogs mouth open. Tough to tell if it was working or not, was happening quite fast. The pit released, ran back to its yard, the guy tried "shooing" it away while asking if the lady was alright, she had blood all over her, the pit returned. Got past the man, back onto the pug, he tried the same thing, didn't work, ran over got his level, and ended it. Not sure what you're attempting to prove, that this dog was somehow not "aggressive" or what happened wasn't justified? Please.
> 
> Let's move on already. It was a sad and violent day, but it could have been worse. The pug is fine, has scaring and a piece missing from its ear but other than that it's the same dog it was.


Mace works well. Cattle prod or a tazer works even better. In the past I've carried bear mace, but these days I carry two things: a break stick for dogs, and a tazer, both for dogs AND humans. I have a dog aggressive Pit Bull who's always leashed in public. I have her trained in such a way that we're able to walk within close proximity of other dogs and she won't bat an eye. However, I understand that anything can and will happen. Just because she's leashed and in control, doesn't some other knuckle head's dog won't be. In the event a fight should break out, the break stick is to pry her off another dog (or vice versa). The tazer we have is non-lethal, and is used for large aggressive dogs that come at us with the obvious intent to hurt one of us. I've only had to use it twice in the past 2 years, once against a large GSD that had broken through a fence right in front of us, and the other on what looked like a Lab/pit mix that had simply been roaming, and BOTH dogs dropped to the ground and were stunned instantly. Both dogs lived and were fine within hours, and the owners took special measures afterwards to ensure the dogs stayed confined to their yards.

The tazer is also used for humans. I've seen enough videos on the internet of irrational a*holes beating the crap out of dogs who seem to have the upper hand in fights. Stabbing them, smashing boards over their heads, kicking them, punching them, beating them with metal poles and bats. SHOULD something ever happen where one of my dogs ends up in a fight, the tazer is for those kind of people who want to hurt MY dog before I'm able to intervene.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

begemot said:


> It is sad, but that doesn't mean that something can't be learned by talking about it. From your account, this seems totally preventable. Unfortunately, this man (and everyone else present) didn't know how to handle the situation.
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell me you're not taking your miniature dachshund and a "fairly large knife" to the dog park. This whole thread is about _preventing _injuries!


I never said the guy was Cesar Millan, now could the situation have been prevented, absolutely. Were his actions justified, for the most part I'd say yes. Let me repeat this, this is not the dogs fault, all the blame falls on the owners, and as usual the dogs are taking the worst of it, perfect example is the OT about the husky and chihuahua. 

And no I don't bring my dog to the dog park. Not a fan of those, from what I've seen and heard, their benefits don't out weigh the potential consequences, regardless of my dogs size or demeanor.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

RCloud said:


> Mace works well. Cattle prod or a tazer works even better. In the past I've carried bear mace, but these days I carry two things: a break stick for dogs, and a tazer, both for dogs AND humans. I have a dog aggressive Pit Bull who's always leashed in public. I have her trained in such a way that we're able to walk within close proximity of other dogs and she won't bat an eye. However, I understand that anything can and will happen. Just because she's leashed and in control, doesn't some other knuckle head's dog won't be. In the event a fight should break out, the break stick is to pry her off another dog (or vice versa). The tazer we have is non-lethal, and is used for large aggressive dogs that come at us with the obvious intent to hurt one of us. I've only had to use it twice in the past 2 years, once against a large GSD that had broken through a fence right in front of us, and the other on what looked like a Lab/pit mix that had simply been roaming, and BOTH dogs dropped to the ground and were stunned instantly. Both dogs lived and were fine within hours, and the owners took special measures afterwards to ensure the dogs stayed confined to their yards.
> 
> The tazer is also used for humans. I've seen enough videos on the internet of irrational a*holes beating the crap out of dogs who seem to have the upper hand in fights. Stabbing them, smashing boards over their heads, kicking them, punching them, beating them with metal poles and bats. SHOULD something ever happen where one of my dogs ends up in a fight, the tazer is for those kind of people who want to hurt MY dog before I'm able to intervene.


I'll try the mace, since tasers are illegal here, and continue to carry a knife of some sort just in case anything gets way out of control. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Thanks for the tips.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Also, for the people that were making comments earliar on how GREAT and FULLFILLING bike riding is with your dog and how EVERYONE should do it.... I just took Ma'ii out for a bike ride and after him yanking me off the bike several time, nearly getting run over with the tire by moving in front of it and stopping abruptly, and getting dirty looks from the neighbors, I think it's pretty safe to say this is an extremely bad idea. I think I'll stick to letting my dogs off leash on my mother in-law's private land -_-


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

RCloud said:


> Also, for the people that were making comments earliar on how GREAT and FULLFILLING bike riding is with your dog and how EVERYONE should do it.... I just took Ma'ii out for a bike ride and after him yanking me off the bike several time, nearly getting run over with the tire by moving in front of it and stopping abruptly, and getting dirty looks from the neighbors, I think it's pretty safe to say this is an extremely bad idea. I think I'll stick to letting my dogs off leash on my mother in-law's private land -_-


You could try this lol


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

RCloud said:


> Also, for the people that were making comments earliar on how GREAT and FULLFILLING bike riding is with your dog and how EVERYONE should do it.... I just took Ma'ii out for a bike ride and after him yanking me off the bike several time, nearly getting run over with the tire by moving in front of it and stopping abruptly, and getting dirty looks from the neighbors, I think it's pretty safe to say this is an extremely bad idea. I think I'll stick to letting my dogs off leash on my mother in-law's private land -_-


>.> <.< >.<
You have to take it slow and teach them! lol They don't come pre-programmed knowing what to do! 

I've taken a number of nasty spills (all occurred with my Pyr, actually lol). I was young and she wasn't very well trained lol. But it's probably good to just let him run around on the private land lol!


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> You could try this lol


If they were off leash that would be one thing. But biking with them connected to the bike is a recipe for disaster. Now that I feel like an enormous jackass, I think I'll spend the rest of the day hiding inside


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

RCloud said:


> Also, for the people that were making comments earliar on how GREAT and FULLFILLING bike riding is with your dog and how EVERYONE should do it.... I just took Ma'ii out for a bike ride and after him yanking me off the bike several time, nearly getting run over with the tire by moving in front of it and stopping abruptly, and getting dirty looks from the neighbors, I think it's pretty safe to say this is an extremely bad idea. I think I'll stick to letting my dogs off leash on my mother in-law's private land -_-


Riding seems to ignite her herding drive (apparently all those cars that are passing look like sheep when she's running). Anyway, get yourself one of those bike leash apparatus things. Colby pulled me off once; supposedly the bike leashes make it more difficult for your dog to yank you off. Then, take it SLOW at first. Like, start off with you walking while straddling your bike and move from there. Also, lots of treats. 

But then again if I had lots of acreage to work with, I'd probably let her run there instead.

LOL @ the downhill ride. There is no way I could ride faster than Colby can run. NO WAY. She's too quick and too agile.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

A walky dog is the name for a "bike leash apparatus things" you're looking for


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

melundie said:


> Riding seems to ignite her herding drive (apparently all those cars that are passing look like sheep when she's running). Anyway, get yourself one of those bike leash apparatus things. Colby pulled me off once; supposedly the bike leashes make it more difficult for your dog to yank you off. Then, take it SLOW at first. Like, start off with you walking while straddling your bike and move from there. Also, lots of treats.
> 
> But then again if I had lots of acreage to work with, I'd probably let her run there instead.
> 
> LOL @ the downhill ride. There is no way I could ride faster than Colby can run. NO WAY. She's too quick and too agile.


We tried it a few months back with Ma'ii and herding the bike was his issue then. He'd start barking and trying to bite my feet/pedals >.< This time he was just all over the place and had no clue how to coordinate with it. We were going real slow and didn't even get down the street before we turned back LOL.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> I never said the guy was Cesar Millan, now could the situation have been prevented, absolutely. Were his actions justified, for the most part I'd say yes. Let me repeat this, this is not the dogs fault, all the blame falls on the owners, and as usual the dogs are taking the worst of it, perfect example is the OT about the husky and chihuahua.


I meant that the man who intervened, the woman, and you could have all responded differently had you known what to do. Here are links explaining how to break up a dog fight. Since it's such a big issue where you live, I strongly recommend reading them.
Quick and easy explanation on diylife.
Pit Bull Rescue Central explanation with additional info specific to pit bulls (since you said there are a lot of poorly managed pit bulls in your area, you may want to get a break stick)
Terrierman's explanation.

I carry pepper spray myself, but I don't plan to ever use it. I will try everything else first, since it's possible for pepper spray to make things worse.

And, btw, Cesar Millan's advice for breaking up a dog fight is HORRIBLE (shouting, rib-jabbing, collar-grabbing).

ETA: There are surely people here who know more than I do about breaking up dog fights, and hopefully they will chime in with more info for you.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

begemot said:


> I meant that the man who intervened, the woman, and you could have all responded differently had you known what to do. Here are links explaining how to break up a dog fight. Since it's such a big issue where you live, I strongly recommend reading them.
> Quick and easy explanation on diylife.
> Pit Bull Rescue Central explanation with additional info specific to pit bulls (since you said there are a lot of poorly managed pit bulls in your area, you may want to get a break stick)
> Terrierman's explanation.
> ...


I live in a residential area, so the chances of a dog getting loose and you running into that dog, or simply having to pass another person walking their dog on a sidewalk, are higher. It happens, usually it's not a big deal, so I won't post about those cases. 

The advice posted (links) read great, they really do, but I don't see myself being able to accomplish many of those tips to a thrashing 80lb dog, while watching my dog get chewed to pieces. Like I mentioned earlier, I'll pick up the pepper spray, but I still won't be leaving home without my knife in case things ever do get out of control.

And the Cesar Millan comment was a joke, relax.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> I live in a residential area, so the chances of a dog getting loose and you running into that dog, or simply having to pass another person walking their dog on a sidewalk, are higher. It happens, usually it's not a big deal, so I won't post about those cases.
> 
> The advice posted (links) read great, they really do, but I don't see myself being able to accomplish many of those tips to a thrashing 80lb dog, while watching my dog get chewed to pieces. Like I mentioned earlier, I'll pick up the pepper spray, but I still won't be leaving home without my knife in case things ever do get out of control.
> 
> And the Cesar Millan comment was a joke, relax.


I know you said tazers were illegal where you live, but what about a cattle prod? Those are equally effective and will turn dogs packing in the opposite direction almost immediately.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

RCloud said:


> I know you said tazers were illegal where you live, but what about a cattle prod? Those are equally effective and will turn dogs packing in the opposite direction almost immediately.


I'll have to look into my state laws (MA) a bit more regarding something like that. That would make my life a lot easier, and put my gf at ease when she's out alone taking the pooch for a walk.

Edit: quick search shows mace is illegal too...appears cattle prods are lumped into the same category as tasers and stun guns.


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> I live in a residential area, so the chances of a dog getting loose and you running into that dog, or simply having to pass another person walking their dog on a sidewalk, are higher. It happens, usually it's not a big deal, so I won't post about those cases.
> 
> The advice posted (links) read great, they really do, but I don't see myself being able to accomplish many of those tips to a thrashing 80lb dog, while watching my dog get chewed to pieces. Like I mentioned earlier, I'll pick up the pepper spray, but I still won't be leaving home without my knife in case things ever do get out of control.
> 
> And the Cesar Millan comment was a joke, relax.


I guess I just missed the funny part.

I wish there was some way I could convince you that wheelbarrowing a dog is easier, safer, and more effective than stabbing it, but if those links didn't help I doubt I can. Good luck to you and your dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Dog spray/bear spray is usually legal even where mace/pepper spray isn't. If you used it on a human you'd be in big trouble, though.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

All I have to say is that stabbing a raging dog will likely make them bite HARDER, and attack faster and with more strength.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think that if you're close enough to the dog to stab it (and the dog is so violent you couldn't break up the fight through non-lethal means), you've already lost that fight.


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

begemot said:


> I guess I just missed the funny part.
> 
> I wish there was some way I could convince you that wheelbarrowing a dog is easier, safer, and more effective than stabbing it, but if those links didn't help I doubt I can. Good luck to you and your dog.


Listen, my situation is much different than someone bringing their dog to the dog park, so please stop trying to convince me of anything. I walk my dog on a leash, and keep him on my property when off leash. If for some off beat reason I run into a confrontation, and it escalates to the point where my dog is clenched in another dogs jaws, there's a good chance wheel barreling won't be enough. Given my states laws I don't have many less lethal options either.

Whether it's the right way or wrong way of doing things that is a matter of opinion and circumstance, both can be argued endlessly. If you don't agree with me we can continue this discussion via pm if you feel so inclined. Thanks.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

RCloud said:


> Also, for the people that were making comments earliar on how GREAT and FULLFILLING bike riding is with your dog and how EVERYONE should do it....


Wow, it's JUST LIKE you quoted me word for word! Except completely not. -_-


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## Ratpick (Nov 10, 2011)

jeez... i have had encounters in the dog park aswell with husky and many of them.. there is 3 regular huskys in the park and my "Border collie puppy" has had 2 bites and one of them huskys are running after every small dog around and growling at em. i have had to shoo away the dog many times but as i read this i should perhaps insted tell the owner..thanks for letting me know that this has happend.. and Rest in peace Little dog...


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Wow, it's JUST LIKE you quoted me word for word! Except completely not. -_-


I'm sorry, did I need to quote you word for word for my point to be any more valid?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

RCloud said:


> I'm sorry, did I need to quote you word for word for my point to be any more valid?


It's ok, I understand that posting "quotes" that people didn't really say and aren't really even really consistent with the spirit of what they said doesn't help to prop up your strawman argument.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

sassafras said:


> It's ok, I understand that posting "quotes" that people didn't really say and aren't really even really consistent with the spirit of what they said doesn't help to prop up your strawman argument.


You keep telling yourself that.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

LowPooch said:


> I'll have to look into my state laws (MA) a bit more regarding something like that. That would make my life a lot easier, and put my gf at ease when she's out alone taking the pooch for a walk.
> 
> Edit: quick search shows mace is illegal too...appears cattle prods are lumped into the same category as tasers and stun guns.


Pepper spray is legal is most states I thought, as a form of self defense. Bear mace isn't always legal however.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

RCloud said:


> You keep telling yourself that.


LOL. Saying (paraphrasing) "don't count out any breed, a lot of breeds love this and it's good exercise" is different than what you _claim_ I said. Just like throwing your dog in front of a bike and expecting him to magically know what to do is different than bikejoring. 

Personally I don't care how you exercise your dog, but I do care if you misrepresent a sport I enjoy and what I said about it.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

sassafras said:


> LOL. Saying (paraphrasing) "don't count out any breed, a lot of breeds love this and it's good exercise" is different than what you _claim_ I said. Just like throwing your dog in front of a bike and expecting him to magically know what to do is different than bikejoring.
> 
> Personally I don't care how you exercise your dog, but I do care if you misrepresent a sport I enjoy and what I said about it.


HAHA you wanna talk about mis-quoting? I didn't just "throw my dog in front of my bike and expect him to magically know what to do" and that's NOT what I said!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

RCloud said:


> HAHA you wanna talk about mis-quoting? I didn't just "throw my dog in front of my bike and expect him to magically know what to do" and that's NOT what I said!


I do apologize. I must have missed your "training my dog to bikejor" thread.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I do apologize. I must have missed your "training my dog to bikejor" thread.


No, but apparently you missed everything else I said


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## LowPooch (Apr 17, 2012)

RCloud said:


> Pepper spray is legal is most states I thought, as a form of self defense. Bear mace isn't always legal however.


I'm not sure myself, I keep finding conflicting information. I'll have to go to a local fire arms dealer and see what they have to say. Thanks for the help.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

Inga said:


> At work last week a Medical tech was telling me that she was so excited as she had gotten a Silky Terrier puppy. She was proudly telling me that she takes her pup to the dog park and they LOVE it. I asked if there is a small dog side and she said "yes, but I don't go in there as there are never any dogs in it." I couldn't help but tell her a few of the recent small dog death stories. She too said "I will take my chances as she LOVES it." I said, "oh, that is sort of sad news, it isn't YOUR chances you are taking, it is your pups." The thing is, there would be dogs in the small area if someone would start it. Others show up, you could encourage them into the small dog area with you.


That's exactly the mentality of most people, not just dog owners. They're all hippy about life decisions and only when something really bad happens (an inevitable result) a light bulb finally turns on in there heads. Some form of severe punishment will teach them a lesson but unfortunately hammer's gonna fall on there dogs instead.

I'm of the thought that human is supposed to be dog's best friend, not another dog. Dogs I see in a dog park don't look like having much fun to me, they wrestle and chase each other but one dog will always be taking it too far and bullying another. I see owners standing idle when one dog is clearly not having fun - people think their dog is having super fun wrestling with another dog but actually the dog is not enjoying it one bit. Even when they do play nice it's usually pretty short. I often took the liberty to engage one of their dogs and show them that even playing with a complete stranger is more fun than a "friend" dog. There was one especially annoying and energetic dog in my park that I played with just so it left other dogs alone - it was a good dog, but definitely not to be left in a dog park to its own devices. I always left the park covered in dirt, grass and mud and pretty much looked like an idiot. I don't think people liked me because I'd always highlight the lack of human companionship their dogs wanted. Of course there were great dogs and great people there but in most weird times when no one else was present. That was my experience of dog parks, didn't (personally) have an incident but I've seen a lot of them usually between two males.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Something happened at doggy social last week that made me think of this thread. 
There was a little terrier puppy there, maybe about 12lbs, and a couple of other smaller dogs. The person overseeing social mentioned to watch Caeda around them in case she got rough (interesting because she never gets rough with tiny ones), but of course we watched like hawks anyway. Caeda was playing with a larger dog and hopped over it. Guess what little puppy decided to run up at that very time (from about 10 feet away, so was far away at the beginning of all of this). Yup, Caeda landed on it. No major damage, just a sore leg for about a minute, then back to normal. 
Just thought I'd share this, because its a pretty distinct example of the kind of accident that can happen with big and small dogs playing even in the same vicinity. Caeda hadn't even interacted with this little terrier yet! I would hate to think of what COULD have happened if 65lbs of Caeda had landed in a different spot on the terrier. 
Thankfully there was no lasting damage, no fingers pointed, and after that the room got split in half for small and big dogs, probably should have been done from the beginning, but the chance was taken and everybody knew the risks going in.


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## Samipaws (Apr 19, 2012)

That' horrible, Just sad that a pet passed away


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## AussieNerdQueen (Jul 28, 2010)

Samipaws said:


> That' horrible, Just sad that a pet passed away


Plus, someone else's pet may be PTS.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

AussieNerdQueen said:


> Plus, someone else's pet may be PTS.


this thread needs to get PTS....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> this thread needs to get PTS....


It's like chewing liver, longer you chew bigger it gets.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

wvasko said:


> It's like chewing liver, longer you chew bigger it gets.


well.... thats gross... lol


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

RCloud said:


> Also, for the people that were making comments earliar on how GREAT and FULLFILLING bike riding is with your dog and how EVERYONE should do it.... I just took Ma'ii out for a bike ride and after him yanking me off the bike several time, nearly getting run over with the tire by moving in front of it and stopping abruptly, and getting dirty looks from the neighbors, I think it's pretty safe to say this is an extremely bad idea. I think I'll stick to letting my dogs off leash on my mother in-law's private land -_-


Here's a thought: Try training him to be a good biking buddy. Expecting a dog to be born knowing how to bike is every bit as dumb as expecting your pup to become Lassie without any training or effort on your part.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Tofu_pup said:


> Here's a thought: Try training him to be a good biking buddy. Expecting a dog to be born knowing how to bike is every bit as dumb as expecting your pup to become Lassie without any training or effort on your part.


 Yes definitely. I bike a little with both my dogs and I had to start out slow, because the first thing each one did was run in front of my tire LOL. Yay, my brakes work!! =D Learning how to run nicely next to a bike is definitely a learned skill that requires practice. It can be dangerous otherwise.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Tofu_pup said:


> Here's a thought: Try training him to be a good biking buddy. Expecting a dog to be born knowing how to bike is every bit as dumb as expecting your pup to become Lassie without any training or effort on your part.


Quite the contrary, I wasn't expecting him to automatically know how to bike, and I didn't just throw him next to it and start pedaling full force down the street. I'd hope you guys would realize I have a bit more common sense than that, as not only would it NOT work, but it's simply dangerous. Fact is, we went very slow and more or less walked with me sitting on the bike. I didn't dare start pedaling because my dog was sort of all over the place. 

Also, at the time I wrote that post, I had literally just gotten back from the whole incident and was extremely frustrated and just feeling like an all around jackass, because I had taken a couple of nasty falls and was getting some looks from the neighbors. What you don't know however is we went right back out a couple hours later and kept at it, and after a while, Ma'ii began to catch on. His paws are a little sore today, so we may need to invest on some doggie shoes, but he does fine running with the bike.


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

RCloud said:


> Quite the contrary, I wasn't expecting him to automatically know how to bike, and I didn't just throw him next to it and start pedaling full force down the street. I'd hope you guys would realize I have a bit more common sense than that, as not only would it NOT work, but it's simply dangerous. Fact is, we went very slow and more or less walked with me sitting on the bike. I didn't dare start pedaling because my dog was sort of all over the place.
> 
> Also, at the time I wrote that post, I had literally just gotten back from the whole incident and was extremely frustrated and just feeling like an all around jackass, because I had taken a couple of nasty falls and was getting some looks from the neighbors. What you don't know however is we went right back out a couple hours later and kept at it, and after a while, Ma'ii began to catch on. His paws are a little sore today, so we may need to invest on some doggie shoes, but he does fine running with the bike.


I just saw you posted this. I trained maggie the commands before we ever went bike riding. Well I am so glad he catched on! It is so fun. did you go on pavement? I agree with getting booties!


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

RCloud said:


> Quite the contrary, I wasn't expecting him to automatically know how to bike, and I didn't just throw him next to it and start pedaling full force down the street. I'd hope you guys would realize I have a bit more common sense than that, as not only would it NOT work, but it's simply dangerous. Fact is, we went very slow and more or less walked with me sitting on the bike. I didn't dare start pedaling because my dog was sort of all over the place.
> 
> Also, at the time I wrote that post, I had literally just gotten back from the whole incident and was extremely frustrated and just feeling like an all around jackass, because I had taken a couple of nasty falls and was getting some looks from the neighbors. What you don't know however is we went right back out a couple hours later and kept at it, and after a while, Ma'ii began to catch on. His paws are a little sore today, so we may need to invest on some doggie shoes, but he does fine running with the bike.


Well, I'm glad to hear you're doing better with it. I only jumped on your comment because you sounded snarky(probably frustrated) with the people that suggested it as an alternative outlet for dogs. 

That being said, I started each of my dogs by walking them next to the bike. My dog(s) run on the left side of the bike so I walked them on my left and pushed the bike with my right hand. During that stage, I would practice walking, trotting, running and getting the dog used to the sounds/presence of the bike. I only used praise and verbal corrections. 

Kaki has been an angel of a biking buddy. On days when we have to cover a lot of miles, I sometimes forget she's there. Yet we still have slip ups; it's normal. When we first started biking off leash, she got so excited that she just had to bite/nip my calves. The first few times we biked with another person, she was trying to focus on too much at once and frequently got in the way, forgetting the watch OUR bike. A couple of months ago she tried to chase geese even though we have been past geese hundreds of times before without incident. I smashed my finger and hit her with the bike. We live to ride another day.

ETA: Musher's Secret wax is a better option than boots. Kaki has sent her boots flying soooo high that at first glance I thought they were birds soaring through the air. Her boots will still be put to use occasionally for a walking pace but not running.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

I agree with a paw wax of some kind over boots. I haven't used boots - but I use wax and Bella's feet are pristine.

As for the biking - if you're physically holding onto the leash while trying to do it (one hand holding the leash one on the bike) you'll take A LOT more falls/have a lot more accidents than you would if you got something like a Walky-dog attachment or set it up for him to run in front of the bike. THAT is the dangerous part especially if you're trying to control the dog with one hand and the bike with one hand. Once the dog is trained - it's fairly safe.

I had to train Bella to run IN FRONT of my bike/tire and I had to do it with a short leash (I didn't have my 10ft at the time). Which wasn't incredibly hard since she would pull but when she decided she didn't want to pull she had to be super aware that the tire was right behind her. That took a few weeks and forced me to replace my brakes on my bike lol.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I skipped allthethings, just to tell sassafras how much fun I had watching those videos xD Both my dogs have a blast pulling things around, but I've never tried them together. I'd like to someday, with the proper set up of course. I'm also quite a large person who I won't put them through that xD But that looks like sooooooooooo much fun.


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

I bought musher's secret but keep forgetting about it!! lol alpine outfitters has the best equipment for biking!


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> I skipped allthethings, just to tell sassafras how much fun I had watching those videos xD Both my dogs have a blast pulling things around, but I've never tried them together. I'd like to someday, with the proper set up of course. I'm also quite a large person who I won't put them through that xD But that looks like sooooooooooo much fun.


 my husband is a big guy, my malamute has no trouble pulling him!


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Niraya said:


> I agree with a paw wax of some kind over boots. I haven't used boots - but I use wax and Bella's feet are pristine.
> 
> As for the biking - if you're physically holding onto the leash while trying to do it (one hand holding the leash one on the bike) you'll take A LOT more falls/have a lot more accidents than you would if you got something like a Walky-dog attachment or set it up for him to run in front of the bike. THAT is the dangerous part especially if you're trying to control the dog with one hand and the bike with one hand. Once the dog is trained - it's fairly safe.
> 
> I had to train Bella to run IN FRONT of my bike/tire and I had to do it with a short leash (I didn't have my 10ft at the time). Which wasn't incredibly hard since she would pull but when she decided she didn't want to pull she had to be super aware that the tire was right behind her. That took a few weeks and forced me to replace my brakes on my bike lol.


I wasn't physically holding onto the leash. The leash was connected to our bike rack on the back of the bike because it hangs out a ways and keeps the leash away from the tires. This was how we trained Charlotte to bike with us, like in this picture with my husband:










With her the regular leash works fine, but the key with Ma'ii is to shorten it so he doesn't have so much freedom. We've since ordered one of those walkie dog bike things.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> I skipped allthethings, just to tell sassafras how much fun I had watching those videos xD Both my dogs have a blast pulling things around, but I've never tried them together. I'd like to someday, with the proper set up of course. I'm also quite a large person who I won't put them through that xD But that looks like sooooooooooo much fun.


Aheheh, thanks. I am not an insubstantial person, so don't count yourself out. 


I third the Musher's Secret, I love it. I hate booties, I think they're a huge pain.


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## Xirapha (Jul 1, 2012)

I just joined today so if my reply is a bit late..too bad 

I haven't read the entire thread but from what I can add something perhaps! I live in New Zealand. We have NO dog parks that I know of in the entire country. We have parks and areas designated off leash or on leash. These are not fenced and usually shared will all other users- kids, cyclists, walkers, fishermen..you name it.
We don't have the option of separating our dogs- heaven forbid! I have a supposed high prey drive breed (malamute) and he has socialised with dogs of all sizes his whole life. He lived with my cat until she passed about two years ago. He has lived with a mini schnauzer and a foxy. Never once has there been an incident. I would not trust him around strange cats, and he did kill a mouse once on a walk (lol!)- there has been no other sign of prey drive ever. I trust him 100% around small dogs- i have seen him defend small dogs if another dog got too boisterous with them. He is now nearly 11 years old and we still meet many small dogs every day at the river without any sign of 'prey drive'. Perhaps this is due to the fact that we are forced to socialise with dogs of all sizes..perhaps I have been lucky although I don't think this is the case. 
I find it hard understanding people who get so wound up about segregating big vs little dogs. The key is not size or breed but appropriate socialisation. You can also work to reduce prey drive with counter conditioning and desensitisation if you think your dog has a high drive. Also watch your dog for signs that he/she is exhibiting prey drive and act. 

The husky owner should have acted and is at fault. Simple.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Xirapha said:


> I just joined today so if my reply is a bit late..too bad
> 
> I haven't read the entire thread but from what I can add something perhaps! I live in New Zealand. We have NO dog parks that I know of in the entire country. We have parks and areas designated off leash or on leash. These are not fenced and usually shared will all other users- kids, cyclists, walkers, fishermen..you name it.
> We don't have the option of separating our dogs- heaven forbid! I have a supposed high prey drive breed (malamute) and he has socialised with dogs of all sizes his whole life. He lived with my cat until she passed about two years ago. He has lived with a mini schnauzer and a foxy. Never once has there been an incident. I would not trust him around strange cats, and he did kill a mouse once on a walk (lol!)- there has been no other sign of prey drive ever. I trust him 100% around small dogs- i have seen him defend small dogs if another dog got too boisterous with them. He is now nearly 11 years old and we still meet many small dogs every day at the river without any sign of 'prey drive'. Perhaps this is due to the fact that we are forced to socialise with dogs of all sizes..perhaps I have been lucky although I don't think this is the case.
> ...


I think if perhaps you read the whole thread you would discover it's not that simple.


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## Xirapha (Jul 1, 2012)

No need to be rude- what a nice welcome....

Perhaps you can direct me to the appropriate page or summarise why you think otherwise. I have a short attention span


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Xirapha said:


> No need to be rude- what a nice welcome....


LOL! What do you expect when you resurrect an old thread that was very controversial and then say that you're unwilling to actually read it so that your opinion can make sense?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

No one's going to summarize an 18-page thread for you. We all argued our points and let this thread die a couple months ago.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

How was THAT rude?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Xirapha said:


> No need to be rude- what a nice welcome....
> 
> Perhaps you can direct me to the appropriate page or summarise why you think otherwise. I have a short attention span


Well, I didn't think I was being rude. You posted on an 18 page thread with an opinion, prefacing said opinion that you didn't read the thread itself, then wrapped it up with "simple." Since the thread is 18 pages and the title involves a dog being killed, I would assume there was some heavy discussion in the thread and you know.. read it before weighing in and determining it was simple.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Well, I didn't think I was being rude. You posted on an 18 page thread with an opinion, prefacing said opinion that you didn't read the thread itself, then wrapped it up with "simple." Since the thread is 18 pages and the title involves a dog being killed, I would assume there was some heavy discussion in the thread and you know.. read it before weighing in and determining it was simple.


FTR I did not thing you were rude either.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> FTR I did not thing you were rude either.


That's good. Probably just tone lost in text striking again.


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## chipinmom (Feb 13, 2012)

TWAB, you were far from rude.


Xirapha, welcome to DF. It's a great site with great people. But resurrecting an old, controversial (very controversial, I should know since I started it) thread is going to do more harm than good. The debates got heated in this one and IMO it should stay buried (and preferably locked).


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I agree with chipinmom.

Overall, I think it would great if there was some sort of automatic lock on threads after they sit a certain time. People see to be grave digging a lot lately, even going back as far as a few years to find posts that have been laid to rest.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Xirapha said:


> No need to be rude- what a nice welcome....
> 
> Perhaps you can direct me to the appropriate page or summarise why you think otherwise. I have a short attention span


What TWAB said was rude? You don't read many forums, do you?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> No need to be rude- what a nice welcome....
> 
> Perhaps you can direct me to the appropriate page or summarise why you think otherwise. I have a short attention span


Nothing rude was said to you, and no one here will summarize an 18 page thread for you if you can't be bothered to read it for yourself.

I agree that this thread has more than run it's course, so as requested, I am locking it down.


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