# Question about Border Collies



## MakeShift Heart (Sep 12, 2009)

So I was wondering, has anyone seen a purebred BC's tail curl up like a husky's tail?

We had one come into the boarding kennel that is claimed to be purebred but my friend and I thought he might be mixed because his tail curled up. That was the only thing about him that seemed off..


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm no expert, but here's what I've been told:

Some BC's will carry their tails high and they can even curl over the dog's back - sickle-shaped, sort of. When herding, the tail is generally kept low.


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## GSDGAL (May 27, 2009)

our border collie does that when he's happy, and also i knew a purebred black and white male collie that lived with it in the air...but he couldn't heard a tree let alone a sheep...i don't know if they're genetically linked or he was just crap at herding


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

There are plenty of purebred dogs that will carry their tails high and sickle shaped. It may be incorrect/disqualifying fault for the breed, but it doesn't make them any less purebred.

I know several BC's and a couple Shelties with this issue.

Also, a proper Husky tail should not be sickled either (called a snap tail in their breed). When it is carried high it should curve gently over the back, but not be curled


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

any breed can have a "gay" tail. it doesnt meant that its not a pure bred dog.


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## BC3 (Sep 23, 2009)

This is a picture of Kya with her tail held high. All of mine do this when they are excited, or on alert, but when working the tail is always low.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

like BC3 said, mine will carry theirs like that _only_ when excited/at attention, but the breed should not carry it that way at all times.....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes. A lot of the bcs I train with will carry their tail over their back part of the time.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Pure bred Border Collies come in all shapes and sizes to include tail set.

Tail set has absolutely nothing to do with being a purebred or not. That is why there are so many debates against setting a breed standard for a BC.

They were never org intended/developed to have much of one (except for a work standard) when compared to other breeds. In addition this is why so many people in several countries are of the opinion that registries such as the AKC lend to basterdizing the breed when attempting to design a mold.


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## MakeShift Heart (Sep 12, 2009)

tirluc said:


> like BC3 said, mine will carry theirs like that _only_ when excited/at attention, but the breed should not carry it that way at all times.....


That's just it he did carry it that way at all times. It was almost like he couldn't uncurl it.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

sparkle said:


> Pure bred Border Collies come in all shapes and sizes to include tail set.
> 
> Tail set has absolutely nothing to do with being a purebred or not. That is why there are so many debates against setting a breed standard for a BC.
> 
> They were never org intended/developed to have much of one (except for a work standard) when compared to other breeds. In addition this is why so many people in several countries are of the opinion that registries such as the AKC lend to basterdizing the breed when attempting to design a mold.


sparkle, where this is true for the most part, a BC's tail is used as a "balance" when working and also as the "shepherds lantern" (thus the white tip)....the tail should not, even for a working dog, ever be carried in a complete curl over the back.....sickled like in Kya's pic above when excited/at attention, yes but not curled over the back....even a rancher/farmer will tend to frown on them....

as for having the curled tail, i would tend to say that at some point in the past there is something else in the lines....any breeder w/ both stud and bitch can claim that the pups are pure and register them as such.....my aunt had an "Airedale" a few yrs back that she had bought from a breeder....as the pup got older in it's 1st yr, it was very apparent that there was something else in there (looked Airedale and GSD)....the breeder was insistent that the only male that she had been in contact w/ was her Airedale stud....but, she had a neighbour that had a GSD and so she went to talk w/ the neighbour and come to find out, sure enuff, the neighbour had removed the dog from her yard one day when the family was gone (the female had gone thru a silent cycle and that is why she was outside in the 1st place and the GSD had scaled the fence to get to her...the male Airedale was in the house as he would jump the fence, thus no fight, and then the Airedale must have gotten w/ her as well, since not all the pups were a mix)....it was a surprise litter, none the less....


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

tirluc said:


> sparkle, where this is true for the most part, a BC's tail is used as a "balance" when working and also as the "shepherds lantern" (thus the white tip)....the tail should not, even for a working dog, ever be carried in a complete curl over the back.....sickled like in Kya's pic above when excited/at attention, yes but not curled over the back....even a rancher/farmer will tend to frown on them....
> 
> the less....


That is a very interesting comment one of which I have never heard before having breed,trialed,judged herding events, trained many stock dogs for real work along with trialing, and having been over in Europe observing,trialing, and talking with many of the top sheperds.

A BC does not even need a tail to "balance".. many herding breeds have no tail per say. . In some cases tails can be a hinderance.

In addition many BC's do not have any white on the tail at all and some BC's have very little white on them at all, some have no white on them, as I have own'd 2 very good herding black Bc's. I will ask around and see if any my herding acquaintences have ever heard of or would share your perspectives.?????

And regardless (concerning the OP's question))tail set has absolutely nothing to do with a BC being a purebred or not.
Very interesting...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There was someone trialing pretty well recently with a bobtailed bc. I believe she had to be docked due to injury but she had no problem whatsoever herding.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

sparkle said:


> That is a very interesting comment one of which I have never heard before having breed,trialed,judged herding events, trained many stock dogs for real work along with trialing, and having been over in Europe observing,trialing, and talking with many of the top sheperds.
> 
> A BC does not even need a tail to "balance".. many herding breeds have no tail per say. . In some cases tails can be a hinderance.
> 
> ...


i don't mean that they use it necessarily for balancing, but just like a Lab's tail is like their "rudder" the Border's is like their "balance"....doesn't mean that they can't work w/out it or w/ a curled tail (a lab can still swim w/out a tail, too).....as for the white tip, i know good and well that it doesn't have to have a white tip, but i, at least, have heard it many times referred to as the "Shepherd's lantern"....again, doesn't mean it has to be there.....

again, it doesn't necessarily mean that a dog is pure or not just b/c the tail does/doesn't hang low or curl, have the white tip or not, but a dog w/ a constant curled tail, i would tend to say that they have something else in the background....and it could be back generations...throwbacks happen all the time.....

JMO


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

tirluc said:


> i don't mean that they use it necessarily for balancing, but just like a Lab's tail is like their "rudder" the Border's is like their "balance"....doesn't mean that they can't work w/out it or w/ a curled tail (a lab can still swim w/out a tail, too).....
> again, it doesn't necessarily mean that a dog is pure or not just b/c the tail does/doesn't hang low or curl, have the white tip or not, but a dog w/ a constant curled tail, i would tend to say that they have something else in the background....and it could be back generations...throwbacks happen all the time.....
> 
> JMO


I gather you also not saying that just because a Border Collie (or any other herding breed) can work without a tail that that Border Collies work better or best with a tail?

I would agree however that most BC"S tail set are not always curled over but again it is not a definite marker in determining a purebred BC. Which again is the point of contention of the question in asking if a curled tail equates to a BC being a purebred or not. 

JMHO


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

tail or no tail and the carriage there of does not the working dog make....the working ability falls in the mind and in the correct conformation of the dog to perform that function....just as w/ ear set/eye colour/colour of the dog itself, the tail is "cosmetics" where working ability is concerned....but, once again i have heard of many that will tell you that a blue-eyed dog or one w/ the "wrong" shade of brown or the dog w/ prick ears or dropped ears, not the semi-pricked ears, or a mostly/all white/black/red dog can't do as good of a job and that has also proven false....these are all cosmetics and that is why i stay away from the conformation ring--they have nothing to do w/ whether the dog can work or not....


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

I have also experienced (the hard way) and has been agreed to by many people in the herding community that livestock ... sheep, ducks, and cattle react differently to different colored dogs (especially black ones) and different physical styles of dogs to include creeping verses totally upright, and hair coat. A Smooth coated black and white BC (herding dog) may effect less pressure/influence on livestock than a heavly fluffly coated one which can in many cases cause the livestock to be more frantic and difficult to control. A mostly black smooth coated may cause a different effect.

I also agree when it comes to Border Collies it is one of the few breeds that are based primarily on work ethic/ability tail or no tail.

Then there is the issue (when herding) of how livestock of similar and different colors react/behave/effect each other and a dog regardless of being the same breed. when considering the dogs/any dogs work ability.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

oh, i agree totally on the coat, colour, ear set, etc makes a difference in how the livestock may react, but it has been proven that there are exceptions to that "rule".....and if the dog has the proper ability to do their job, these things become a minor infraction.....

but, i still think that a dog w/ a curled tail (always) will most likely have something else in their background....i may be wrong, it has happened once or twice...but it's still my thoughts on it...

MakeShift, how long did you observe this dog for and was the tail like that ALWAYS, even relaxed? was it like a Samoyeds?


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## MakeShift Heart (Sep 12, 2009)

I took care of him almost everyday that he was staying there and yes his tail was always curled. 

And i wouldn't say it was as tightly curled as the samoyed but due to the long hair couldn't quite tell you. Pretty much looked like i was looking at the back end of a pap..only bigger

kind of like this only with..long hair lol


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## beecee_ (Dec 4, 2009)

My border collie carries his tail over his back at times... He is purebred and has every characteristic and personality trait a bc should have... All it is is a fault. He does not carry it that way all the time. Depending on his mood and what he is doing. He will start his herding training soon so I'll see how he carries it then. Pretty sure he'll do great.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

beecee, that's what i was saying....carrying it that way "at times" is normal...to carry it curled over the back, even when not excited, is not...they carry it down....it's not a "fault" either way....there is no set standard for a working BC....however, if it were in the ring, it would DEFINITELY be considered a "fault"...not that it would be disqualified but it would be "passed over" by the judge....


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## FireDoc-BC-Owner (Jul 17, 2012)

Hi Linda & Kya,

We are new owners of now what we are being told is a Border Collie, which when we adopted Hank 31 Jan, we're told by Canines With A Cause, that Hank was Australian Shepherd & Husky mix.









And now at 10 mos. Hank has taken on the appearance of your Kya










and since 31 Jan, which began as Fostering for only a week, now have adopted how appropriately named Buddy, 7 Apr, who is over a year old.










Hank n Buddy Blogspot
http://hankpokewilliamsjr.blogspot.com/

Hank n Buddy's Forever Home
http://my-time-2-quilt.biz/hank/

BTW - Kya is very pretty and Hank's tail curls big time, too

Doc
Salt Lake Valley, UT
drdocyoung.com




BC3 said:


> This is a picture of Kya with her tail held high. All of mine do this when they are excited, or on alert, but when working the tail is always low.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Hank appears to be a Double merle. He very well could be a purebred Australian Shepherd


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I agree, thats a double merle and looks like a purebred dog, could be an aussie who didn't have his tail docked or a bc.

Here's my border collie by the way:









And this is the only pic I have that shows his tail. He holds it in many different ways depending on what he's doing.


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