# Tail Docking



## Kwiatkowski18 (May 21, 2009)

The girlfriend and I just picked up a 10 week old pure bred Australian Shepherd. He isn't at home with us yet but he will be next Saturday when we move into our new house. He was the only puppy in the litter that had a naturally smaller tail (compared to the others) that was almost a cross between the shortness of the docked tail and the regular length the others had. 

Is he too old to have the tail docked to an even smaller length (like most Australian's do)? Or is he too old? It's not really a big deal to me but the girlfriend would like to have it done if it is possible. Thanks.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes, he's too old to be docked. It is usually done when the puppies are just a few days old.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Why do you want it docked? Is there a health issue with regard to his tail?


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## Kwiatkowski18 (May 21, 2009)

That's what I thought. Thanks for the info. 



Independent George said:


> Why do you want it docked? Is there a health issue with regard to his tail?


No health issues. It would just be done for visual purposes. We weren't really leaning towards it but we were just curious.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I don't think he's too old. It is usually done at a younger age, but that doesn't mean it can't be done at his age. The surgery can be more complicated at his age and have more complications though. You need to consult a vet to be sure, but to my knowledge there's no reason why the surgery can't be done. I have a 10 yr old basset and was told my vet that they could do the surgery on him if they had to. (Don't ask, long story.) Anyway, he's not too old, it can be done, but you need to talk to your vet about it.


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## Kwiatkowski18 (May 21, 2009)

It wouldn't be worth the risk. Thanks everyone.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Kwiatkowski18 said:


> It wouldn't be worth the risk. Thanks everyone.


I don't think it's risky. If it was risky, my vet would not have suggested it for a 10 yr old dog. The risk is going to be much less for a 10 week old dog. I'm not saying to have the dogs tail docked, I'm saying talk to your vet if you're considering it at all, don't just go by the non-expert opinions (and I include mine in that number) on a message board. 

My vet told me it was an option for my dog. That would indicate to me that it could definitely be an option for your dog as well.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Having a dogs tail docked at an older age due to injuries or "happy tail" something like that is different then doing it simply for looks. I am PRO tail docking but not after 3-5 days old. Once the pup is over 5 years I think you need to have a very good reason for it. 
Why didn't the breeder have it done? I mean, if it was short but not correct, I am surprised she/he didn't have it done at the normal time.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Inga said:


> Having a dogs tail docked at an older age due to injuries or "happy tail" something like that is different then doing it simply for looks. I am PRO tail docking but not after 3-5 days old. Once the pup is over 5 years I think you need to have a very good reason for it.
> Why didn't the breeder have it done? I mean, if it was short but not correct, I am surprised she/he didn't have it done at the normal time.


Agreed. It is different because it can be a traumatic surgery and it's a surgery being done purely for cosmetics. But it can still be done. That was my point.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Yes the pup is too old to have it's tail docked. If you were to have it done now it would be an amputaion. Which would require full anesthesia, a skilled vet, lots of pain meds, and weeks of recoverytime. Puppies are docked between 0-5 days old, depending on the breed and vet, because thier nervous system hasn't fully developed yet. Not good quality vet would ever consider docking a pup or dog after that age unless there was a diagnosiable medical reason for doing so.

Did the other pups in the litter have natural bob-tails? That would be the only reason I can think of that the pup wouldn't just be docked along with the rest of the litter.


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## Kwiatkowski18 (May 21, 2009)

The breeder wasn't really a "show" type breeder. The woman who I got my puppy from had a litter of puppies between her two purebreds and wasn't really looking to make much money from them. They were just kind of farm dogs that happened to be both purebred. The dog is registered and everything but she wasn't too concerned with docking their tails. He was only a couple of bills and he has all of shots for the year. I was very content with his price and she was very generous in letting him stay with the litter for the next couple weeks while we get settled into the new place. Personally, I'm not picky at all about what the dog looks like as long as I like him. I don't have any standards that need to be met.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> I don't think he's too old. It is usually done at a younger age, but that doesn't mean it can't be done at his age. The surgery can be more complicated at his age and have more complications though. You need to consult a vet to be sure, but to my knowledge there's no reason why the surgery can't be done. I have a 10 yr old basset and was told my vet that they could do the surgery on him if they had to. (Don't ask, long story.) Anyway, he's not too old, it can be done, but you need to talk to your vet about it.



After the first few days it's no longer a dock, but a much more complicated amputation as vital structures have started forming that weren't present at birth.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> After the first few days it's no longer a dock, but a much more complicated amputation as vital structures have started forming that weren't present at birth.


I don't disagree with that. I was just stating that it can still be done if the OP wants it done.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Just for the record, I think Aussies look startlingly beautiful with undocked tails.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

no, he's not to old...as stated, it can be done surgically....but, from experience, i wouldn't recommend it....i had a Schnoodle (there's that "designer" name) yrs ago that would chase/attack/tear up his tail....at 7 mo it wasn't any better (actually was worse) and his tail was a mess so i had it docked....not only did it not stop him (he still chased his (imaginary tail when he had nothing to do) but it also seemed to bother him when he'd sit sometimes or if it was touched....


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## Kwiatkowski18 (May 21, 2009)

rosemaryninja said:


> Just for the record, I think Aussies look startlingly beautiful with undocked tails.


Agreed. I like it where it's at but the girlfriend has almost "Show-like" standards for the dog and would like to see him as perfect as he can be...I on the other hand could care less. As long as we get along just fine, I'm a happy camper.

Thanks for everything everyone.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

My puppy Hawkeye was also born with a naturaly short tail but he had his docked shorter at 2 days old because it wasn't quite short enough for show (has to be between 4" and 2". 

I think the risks and higher amount of discomfort at this age is too much for such a thing.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

Aww keep it long. I prefer dogs to be all natural in the areas of tails and ears...they are just so much prettier!!


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Yeah I say keep it long! 

We do occasional tail docking at the vet clinic I work at, but we won't do it after 4 days old. After there it's considered an amputation and the dog has to be put under anesthesia. We only do this for injuries and not for cosmetic reasons. It is more risky because of the anesthesia...


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I never have liked the look of a docked tail on an aussie.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I prefer the look of a docked tail on an Aussie.....but I would not get it done now that the dog is older and would actually require surgery


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## Gingergal (May 5, 2009)

I think it is sad that people began the practice of docking etc. 
why not leave the dog natural - how it is was meant to be?

Unless for medical reasons or even some hunts etc I don't see the need for it.
So glad Britain has brought in a law http://www.anti-dockingalliance.co.uk/.

I would personally love to see it brought it here or at least give the buyers a choice. I am hoping to buy an english cocker spaniel in a few weeks and I don't have a choice the breeder automatically docks them 

The spaniel tail is such a beautiful sight, to cut it of, is horrible to me. I don't hunt (whether this is a valid excuse or not or if it makes a big difference, I will defer/leave to others).


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The breeds with docked tails were docked originally for working purposes, NOT for convenience or cosmetic reasons, because quite simply it's more humane to dock at or near birth before the nerve ending have developed than it it to have to amputate later. Remember, a broken tail in the field 50-100+ years ago would be a death sentence to a very valuable working animal due to secondary infection. The same is true of ear cropping and dew claw removal, it was a functional issue, not a cosmetic one. 

It became a part of the breed standard because the original breed standards were to keep a breed doing it's job in a healthy manner with minimal chance of injury.

I don't think such legislation should be passed when you're trying to force people to more invasive spay neuter surgeries on a mandatory basis. I will make the decisions for my dog, I will choose to buy from a breeder that docks at the appropriate age instead of subjecting their litter to having an amputation later.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

I personally wouldn't have a breed of dog with a docked tail. They are there for a reason. They have something to wag when they are happy, something to wrap around their noses when it's cold & to show other dogs how they are feeling.
Most states in Australia now have laws in place that ban tail docking, & to my knowledge have never cropped ears. Some breeders eg boxers & dobes are sending their bitches interstate so the puppies can have their tails docked.
A week or so ago I saw an adverisment for a couple of litters of Aussies & it stated that most of them had naturally long tails. I thought they were mostly born without tails.
I agree with Gingergal springers have lovely tails.


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## HersheyBear (Dec 13, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> The breeds with docked tails were docked originally for working purposes, NOT for convenience or cosmetic reasons, because quite simply it's more humane to dock at or near birth before the nerve ending have developed than it it to have to amputate later. Remember, a broken tail in the field 50-100+ years ago would be a death sentence to a very valuable working animal due to secondary infection. The same is true of ear cropping and dew claw removal, it was a functional issue, not a cosmetic one.
> 
> It became a part of the breed standard because the original breed standards were to keep a breed doing it's job in a healthy manner with minimal chance of injury.
> 
> I don't think such legislation should be passed when you're trying to force people to more invasive spay neuter surgeries on a mandatory basis. I will make the decisions for my dog, I will choose to buy from a breeder that docks at the appropriate age instead of subjecting their litter to having an amputation later.


I'll probably be flamed for thinking this, but:

I really disagree with the practice of docking and cropping in modern times, because it exists only for cosmetic and aesthetic purposes and not for the purpose of working. The majority of the breeds that were traditionally docked/cropped no longer perform the job that the breed was created for. You also can't go by breed standards alone, because the breed standards of the AKC have been so altered over the years that many breeds now exist only for show purposes and cannot perform the job they were originally bred to do. Just look at pictures of pedigree dogs at the turn of the 20th century and you'll see how radically different they look today. The health argument is moot, because the show-variety of most pedigree dogs are far less healthy than their working-bred brethren.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

No, breed standards have NOT been altered, there are the same as they were when the breeds were established. They have been IGNORED by judges in favor of in ring 'fashion'. 

As far as cropping and docking. looking at the stats in Germany where all elective surgeries (spay, neuter, crop and dock) have been made illegal, tail amputations and ear repairs have risen dramatically where as the pet population has NOT furthering the argument that it's not necessary to S/N for population control, but crop dock should still be viable option for breeders and owners.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

DogsforMe said:


> I personally wouldn't have a breed of dog with a docked tail. They are there for a reason. They have something to wag when they are happy, something to wrap around their noses when it's cold & to show other dogs how they are feeling.
> .


That made me chuckle a little. I have all docked dogs and guess what? They still DO wag their tails, they just are not as long. In fact, my old gal Inga won the "wag you tail" contest at our local pet fair. She had a very happy tail. As far as wrapping it around their noses when it is cold, they have no need. My dogs sleep in the house on my bed where it is nice and cozy. (well, not Carsten. He sleeps on a double doggy bed right next to my bed) still very cozy and warm. No need to cover his nose with his tail. I am not so sure Rotties could do that anyway as they have more of an otter tail and it doesn't have long hair so... wouldn't help much.


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## HersheyBear (Dec 13, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> No, breed standards have NOT been altered, there are the same as they were when the breeds were established. They have been IGNORED by judges in favor of in ring 'fashion'.
> 
> As far as cropping and docking. looking at the stats in Germany where all elective surgeries (spay, neuter, crop and dock) have been made illegal, tail amputations and ear repairs have risen dramatically where as the pet population has NOT furthering the argument that it's not necessary to S/N for population control, but crop dock should still be viable option for breeders and owners.


Cropping and docking have nothing to do with health. If ear cropping helped with ear infections, then every single Cocker Spaniel and Golden Retriever on earth would have cropped ear.s If docking helped with tail wounds, then every single breed with a thin tail would have their tail docked. Some breeds traditionally docked, like Rottweilers, have naturally thick tails. So that point is moot.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

HersheyBear said:


> Cropping and docking have nothing to do with health. If ear cropping helped with ear infections, then every single Cocker Spaniel and Golden Retriever on earth would have cropped ear.s If docking helped with tail wounds, then every single breed with a thin tail would have their tail docked. Some breeds traditionally docked, like Rottweilers, have naturally thick tails. So that point is moot.


No, that's just not the case because not all dogs are field dogs. If you're a breeder, you have absolutely no idea what the buyers of your puppies are going to do with the dog so you dock. Even if you've done surveys and questionnaires and you're sure they're going to be kept as pets will that always be the case? What if the buyer dies or chooses to give the dog to someone else? Will that person also keep the dog solely as a pet? A tail injury to a grown dog can be a pretty serious injury.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I think I asked this one other time docking/cropping came up - but if long ears and tails were a health risk for the breed doing it's intended job, why didn't the breeders just breed for shorter natural tails and ears when developing the breed? Is that not possible?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Because not as much was known about genetics as there is now, plus he need was immeadiate. Creating a naturally short tail take long time

As far as no health benefits to cropped ears, I beg to differ. I've seen that most cropped breeds have relatively fewer ear infections than uncropped breeds who's ears 'flop'. Let's not forget he reason for crops, it was to prote the dog from an animal that would fight back and do damage to the ear in one form or another.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

KBLover said:


> I think I asked this one other time docking/cropping came up - but if long ears and tails were a health risk for the breed doing it's intended job, why didn't the breeders just breed for shorter natural tails and ears when developing the breed? Is that not possible?


Reason being that back when these breeds were originaly created it was not taboo, or even frowned upon, to crop or dock. Why breed for short tails or prick ears when you can surgicaly alter them and instead focus on other breed characteristics that don't have an easy fix.

The reason for some breeds having docked tails and other similar breeds having natural tails depended on the type of work they did, where they did it, and how they did it. Rotts, with thick furry tails, were carting dogs way back in the day and had thier tails docked to prevent getting caught up or injured by the cart. With sporting dogs breeds like the Vizla, Weim, and GSDs don't have lots of hair coverage to help protect thier thin tails. And with spaniels, even though they have hair coverage, they're also much lower to the groundand whack thier tails against the various debris in the field. 

On the flip side of that there's breeds like the sighthounds that have very thin tails, but they are not tradintionaly docked. Thats because the teraingthey typical worked in was quite blank and didn't have much for them to injure themselves on. However nowdays, with the advent of people keeping dog indoors, there's and increasing amount of dogs injuring thier tails against the living room furniture. I know of quite a few retired greyhounds that ended up having part of thier tail amputated due to injury.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I own a docked breed. Shippo was docked before he was 3 days old. As long as it's done properly (before 3-5 days), there's really not a problem in my book. From what I'm reading, they were trying for naturally bobbed corgis, but ended up with a bunch of dogs with twisted spines when they bred two naturally bobbed corgis together.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Cheetah said:


> I own a docked breed. Shippo was docked before he was 3 days old. As long as it's done properly (before 3-5 days), there's really not a problem in my book. From what I'm reading, they were trying for naturally bobbed corgis, but ended up with a bunch of dogs with twisted spines when they bred two naturally bobbed corgis together.



That is a problem that often occurs when you're breeding for shorter tails, it's very common in Bobbed tailed cats as well.


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