# Mixing raw with kibble



## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

Hi,
My 4.5month old Airedale doesn't eat kibble on it's own. We have tried everything suggested in books and on forums, such as adding water, changing kiblbles etc.
We started adding wet canned food, but this made his stools very squidggy!

We found that in our local pets at home you can buy a 2kg bag of frozen chicken mince for £3.80. Our first idea was to start feeding him a totally raw diet. 
We started mixing the raw chicken in with his kibble and he loves it. His stools were perfect in just a couple of days.

Is it ok to keep him on kibble, but add a cup of raw meat (thawed)?


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## OliveSheprador (Jul 14, 2011)

I think as long as it seems to be working for your dog & you - why not?

Although a lot of people will tell you never to mix raw & kibble.. because raw & kibble digest at different rates or could affect each other in nutrient absorption (I've heard everything), if it works, why not continue to do it. That seems to be the basis of the scientific method that proponents of the raw diet use anyway.


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

Raw meat and processed foods DO digest differently so it is definitely not suggested.

I would highly suggest looking into doing a full on raw diet...why bother wasting your money one processed krapple when your dog knows and likes what it natural for him to eat?

I feed my 3 dogs and 2 cats a well balanced PMRaw diet for the same price and LESS then what I was feeding 1 pug and 1.5 cats on "high quality" processed foods!


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## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

abi88 said:


> Raw meat and processed foods DO digest differently so it is definitely not suggested.
> 
> I would highly suggest looking into doing a full on raw diet...why bother wasting your money one processed krapple when your dog knows and likes what it natural for him to eat?
> 
> I feed my 3 dogs and 2 cats a well balanced PMRaw diet for the same price and LESS then what I was feeding 1 pug and 1.5 cats on "high quality" processed foods!


I would love to feed a fully raw diet. However I dont know enough about it yet. I dont see how meat alone can provide enough nutrition for a dog. I'm not saying I dont believe it, I've just not seen the evidence to prove it. Plus, the only people who have told me that 100%raw is a good idea are people who I dont know on the internet. On the other hand, my profesinally qualified vet has told me not to feed raw as there is more chance of posioning from not storing the meat properly, plus raw meat doesnt give the dog all the nutrents he needs.
So you see where the problem lies. I want to feed raw, but I dont know if it really is the right thing to do for my dog.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

abi88 said:


> Raw meat and processed foods DO digest differently so it is definitely not suggested.


I have heard this before but have yet to see any scientific explanation for why this is a problem. We all know that foods digest at different rates. This fact is the same in humans as it is in dogs, which is why one eats a steak (protein and fat) when one wants to feel full for the rest of the evening, but a candy bar (carbohydrate) when one just needs a quick energy boost. When feeding a dog a raw meal, I assume the bone digesst at a different rate than the muscle, which digests at a different rate than the fat. Since all foods are digesting at a different rate, anyway, what's the problem with mixing raw and kibble?


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## abi88 (Jul 2, 2008)

lewiswalks said:


> I would love to feed a fully raw diet. However I dont know enough about it yet. I dont see how meat alone can provide enough nutrition for a dog. I'm not saying I dont believe it, I've just not seen the evidence to prove it. Plus, the only people who have told me that 100%raw is a good idea are people who I dont know on the internet. On the other hand, my profesinally qualified vet has told me not to feed raw as there is more chance of posioning from not storing the meat properly, plus raw meat doesnt give the dog all the nutrents he needs.
> So you see where the problem lies. I want to feed raw, but I dont know if it really is the right thing to do for my dog.


First off, Vets no next to nothing about nutrition.:wink: They know what they are taught, and that is from companys like Hills(Science Diet**YUCK**) and Royal Canine**YUCK**.

Check out www.preymodelraw.com it is CHOCKED full of information and is a GREAT site! Also check out www.rawfed.com and especally their page about myths, http://rawfed.com/myths, FULL of GREAT information!!

And Im sorry....but poisoning from not storing meat properly? The same could EASILY be said about humans, could be said about kibble, could be said about a LOT of things....so I REALLY dont understand that...other then the fact that it came from your vet. And ya....again about the "raw meat doesnt give the dog all the nutrients he needs"....that is SOMEWHAT true....cause they ALSO need edible bone and organs!

And believe me, when you see the HUGE change(when done right--ie. over time 80% meat, 10% edible bone, 5% liver and 5% other organs) you REALLY wont wonder! I can not BELIEVE the HUUUUUGE change in both my dogs and cats!!


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## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

abi88 said:


> First off, Vets no next to nothing about nutrition.:wink: They know what they are taught, and that is from companys like Hills(Science Diet**YUCK**) and Royal Canine**YUCK**.


Totally understand where your coming from. However, I believe that vet really do know quite a bit about whats best for dogs. I believe that the reason they are taught to tell people to use kibble is because its a lot more simple to everyday man. I do believe the know what they are talking about though. They just tell you kibble as its easier than explaining raw feeding in full.
The main problem for me is sourcing and storing a variety of raw meat. Plus the danger to my family from bactirea. I have a small kitchen and the area I weigh out the raw food is the place we make tea and coffee so it has to be really well cleaned 3 times a day.

I am going to move on to a fully raw diet, I just want to know its the right thing to do, which for me is a go ahead from a qualified profesinal.
What does stand up well for raw feeding is that the people who say 'yes kibble' are the people who sell it. The people that say 'yes raw' are rairly people who make any money from it.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Here is some research material for you.

NRC requirements, old ones. New ones are found in Monica Segal's book - Optimal Nutrition.
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309034965&page=44
USDA
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Those same analyses are used here where you can make up recipes, put your dog's specific requirements into My Preferences and then putting that recipe into My Preferences your dog's numbers are uses so you see with your own eyes that meat, bone and a little organ is what dogs need
http://www.nutritiondata.com/
Since humans don't eat a lot of bone here are the numbers for a few bony meats.
http://www.barfworld.com/html/barfworld/analysis.html
You can put them into nutritiondata as custom foods and use them in your recipes.

I did the work and am confident I am doing right by Max. His fur is twice as long and thick and darker black than it was on kibble/cooked food. His teeth are strong and white. His eyes are clear even though he is 11.5 years old now. He gained 15% his previous healthy weight in strong muscle and is just all around a more sensible dog now.

We raw feeders aren't impartial, we are delighted when somebody switches the dog to raw. Just because we are all gungho doesn't mean this is right for your situation. Do read all you can, especially where newbies go wrong. Sometimes forewarned is forearmed.

My concern with mixing raw with kibble is more the amount. Be sure you aren't overfeeding and it is best to keep unbalanced additions to the diet to about 25% of the calories to avoid overdoing or underdoing this or that.


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

lewiswalks said:


> I am going to move on to a fully raw diet, I just want to know its the right thing to do, which for me is a go ahead from a qualified profesinal.
> What does stand up well for raw feeding is that the people who say 'yes kibble' are the people who sell it. The people that say 'yes raw' are rairly people who make any money from it.


There is a dog store down the road from me that I just visited for the first time recently and they sell mostly dog food, but they told me that a raw diet was the best thing I could do for my dog  Of course they also sell only high quality kibble. They wont sell anything that has less than 55% meat content.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

I've always mixed kibble and raw with no problem. I also have seen absolutely no scientific data explaining (or any explanation at all) why it would be bad to feed a dog foods that digest differently at the same time, they're not that fragile! My dog is 3 yrs old and every since she was 8 weeks old we've rotated every bag and mixed raw with kibble with NO bad affects. She's a very healthy dog!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> I have heard this before but have yet to see any scientific explanation for why this is a problem. We all know that foods digest at different rates. This fact is the same in humans as it is in dogs, which is why one eats a steak (protein and fat) when one wants to feel full for the rest of the evening, but a candy bar (carbohydrate) when one just needs a quick energy boost. When feeding a dog a raw meal, I assume the bone digesst at a different rate than the muscle, which digests at a different rate than the fat. Since all foods are digesting at a different rate, anyway, what's the problem with mixing raw and kibble?


I was waiting for an answer as well. My dogs eat kibble and raw and have never had an issue and in relation to that never will.


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## Mheath0429 (Sep 4, 2011)

Honestly we do blue buffalo wilderness and supplement with the....dehydrated raw. That's what most of the husky forums I am a part of suggest. It appears pricey but it has made delilahs coat so beautiful. Check it out a thehonestkitchen.com


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

"plus raw meat doesn't give the dog all the nutrients he needs." unbalanced raw sure just feed chicken for the dogs life sure the dog won't get right amount of nutrients..

The key with raw is feeding variety chicken, beef, pork, turkey, fish, lamb and so on. Meat has protein, minerals, some vitamins, bone has calcium and some minerals, organs has vitamins and minerals. 

Diet I follow has this guideline 80% meat/ 10% bone/ 5% liver/ 5% other secreting organ like kidney, thymus, pancreas, brain..

Bella my parent's boxer gets kibble, but she also gets a raw meal of either chicken quarter, bit boneless meat or organs, or pork ribs and boneless meat or bit organs etc. instead of kibble as a meal.

She also gets raw egg mixed in her kibble or things like heart, bit liver, boneless meat, kidney, tongue etc. I lower the kibble amount if she gets a lot and she doesn't get a lot of the raw in her kibble meals.. She does fine with it.. 

I also give her caned fish and cooked meats on top of kibble too.

Not all vets got enough training on nutrition I bet if I told my vet I fed raw he'd flip or maybe he'd see how healthy Saya is he'd be a bit interested and see how I put so much research into it.. 

This thread So your interested in raw has some good info and links on raw feeding.

Worried about bacteria? I am too, but I use proper measures to clean up after meat when I sort and bag things up or feed Saya. I use dish soap and wash the counters, cutting board, plate or anything the meat has touched. Basic cleaning that people do when handling meat for themselves..

Few ways to feed raw on a towel, in crate with towel in it for feeding, on kitchen floor and you clean up some people use 50/50 of vinegar and water supposed to be a good natural way to clean it up.

I feed Saya on the towel, in her dog bowl, or outside depends on what she eats or how nice the weather is. 

I only feed her caned fish, egg, or thawed ground beef in her dog bowls things like chicken quarters, drumsticks, thighs, pork ribs, lamb ribs she eats on towel. Whole quail or any meal she eats outside fine. 

I used a 50/50 solution of water and vinegar to wipe Bella's boxer lips of feet if she used her feet and no one has died from her.

My 83 year old grandpa pets Saya and lets her lick his hand and he is still alive same for my young cousin's.


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## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

Great info from everyone. Thank you so much.

One quick thing... He is 4.5months old and has his front adult teeth, but still has all his other baby teeth.
Can he have beef and pork ribs? or should we wait till he has his adult teeth?
He loves chicken wings, can he have the legs yet? Legs are weight bearing but does that matter if its a bird?
Fish? can he have whole fish? or do the bones need to be removed? The cheapest fish for me to source is whole mackerel.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

You can feed the whole fish. If it is spiny like bass or catfish cut the spines off and always check for hooks and such. Fish bones are soft and if left inside the fish get crunched up properly and digested very nicely. Concerns with fish are mercury [check your species for that], general toxins [only feed fish if safe for human consumption], salmon poisoning [no fresh salmon or trout from the Pacific NW], depletion of thiamine if thiaminese containing fish are overfed [like sardines] and scromboid poisoning from spoiled fish.

Max gets ostrich leg bones and I won't let him grind on the shafts but chicken and duck legs are certainly safe. Turkey and goose and pheasant legs would be tougher. Some raw feeders never feed any turkey bone other than necks.


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## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

Kathyy said:


> You can feed the whole fish. If it is spiny like bass or catfish cut the spines off and always check for hooks and such. Fish bones are soft and if left inside the fish get crunched up properly and digested very nicely. Concerns with fish are mercury [check your species for that], general toxins [only feed fish if safe for human consumption], salmon poisoning [no fresh salmon or trout from the Pacific NW], depletion of thiamine if thiaminese containing fish are overfed [like sardines] and scromboid poisoning from spoiled fish.
> 
> Max gets ostrich leg bones and I won't let him grind on the shafts but chicken and duck legs are certainly safe. Turkey and goose and pheasant legs would be tougher. Some raw feeders never feed any turkey bone other than necks.


Ive been told you should freeze all meat to kill bacteria. is this right?
its also a bit of a problem because I only have a small freezer.

What about the beef and pork bones for a 4.5month puppy? ribs ok?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Freezing kills any worm cysts that may be in the meat but only stops the growth of any bacteria in the meat. It is easier than you think, part of one shelf in my frig's top freezer holds 20 pounds, enough for 38 pound Max for a month. I buy meat when it is on sale, pack up bags and freeze. A lot of the meat at the grocer's has been frozen already anyway.

I haven't fed a pup, some feel chewing on partly inedible bone can push the baby teeth around and some think it is good for them. Offer big meals of ribs so he is tired before he really gets a chance to work on the beef and pork ribs and plan to throw some bone away? For Max 2 ribs contains enough meat for a day's ration. If I wanted to make sure he only ate meat/fat and didn't try to eat all the bone I might offer up 4 ribs. I don't want Max to try to break up beef ribs and he eats pork ribs the same way, peels off the meat and chews on the ends of the bone. Some pork rib cuts have lots of lovely cartilage, that is wonderful stuff.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I don't see any problems with it at all. Some people claim raw digests faster than kibble or something so you shouldn't feed them together however, all the Iditarod sled dogs, the best in the world get a mixture of raw, kibble, cooked meat, lard, etc. all in one meal and they are absolutely fine and in the best shape I've ever seen. So I say go ahead!


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## lewiswalks (May 13, 2011)

Thanks again for all the great info. 
Here is what I am doing now.
day 1 kibble and raw chicken mince
day 2 chicken wings and mince
day 3 kibble and mackerel
day 4 kibble and raw chicken
day 5 kibble and raw liver

but I will gradually add more days of meat as a when I can source cheap meat. In the UK meat is very very expensive. I'll go and ask my local butcher for some cheap cuts of tripe and chicken backs if he sells them.
I'll keep feeding kibble until I am in enough of a good routine to feed totally raw

*Last question!*
Do pigs ears, snouts and trotters etc fit in to a raw diet? I dont know if they are cooked or dried.
My pup loves trachea and pizzles (bully sticks)


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