# Miniature American Shepherds



## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Tell me about them! Temperament, how biddable they are, are they noisy, etc. Thanks!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

*Biddable:* yes

*Noisy:* YES!!!!!! You will know if the mail man is coming, trash is being picked up, your neighbors are outside, or a leaf falls in your yard, if they smell something new and strange, etc ... LOL.

*Temperament:* That can very a bit, but as a general breed, MAS are loving and affectionate with their people, but have "their" person in the family they like most, but they do like all the members of the family. Their Temperament is very much like the aussie, since that is where they came from, they have a suspicious nature and early socialization is a MUST as in you have to do it. Some, like mine never really "like" strangers, as in, he will never seek them out willingly, but I am pretty confident that I will get him to accept interaction from strangers with a "can take it or leave it" attitude. Most well socialized MAS I have known are like that, they will accept petting and attention from strangers, but its "meh take or leave it" with them.

*The "boing":* If you like a dog who always has "4 on the floor" than a MAS is NOT the dog for you, I swear they were born with springs in their paws because they are always boinging around like furry pogo sticks haha. They have a certain exuberance and enthusiasm about life in general that is just (for me) awesome, they are very much "yay I dont know what we are going to do and I dont care as long as I am doing SOMETHING with yoooooou!!!!"

*Separation anxiety:* Sadly, that wanting to be with us has its down falls, SA is one of them, to combat this, you must get your puppy used to being alone, I would put Lincoln out in the fenced yard, at my folks ranch or when we were in flower mound, on the porch by himself, without our other dog (because they can experience SA with other dogs, too) They must learn to "stand alone".

*A good breeder:* This is so so important, I cant stress this enough, if you are really serious, I know good breeders all over the country, you can PM me for more information, you can also find me on FB (though I will give my info under PM only since I dont want it out there on the public forum haha). There are a lot of breeders who, to get their dogs smaller faster, bred toy blood into their lines, most of those people stayed with "mini aussie" registration, and for the most part, should be avoided. 

If you have any other questions, please let me know.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Thank you! That information was very helpful! I will for sure ask more questions when I think of any.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

MAS are pretty darn similar to Australian Shepherds. Playful, fun, goofy, biddable, high energy, sometimes stubborn... and generally they tend to be pretty noisy, but you can get some quiet ones depending on lineage.

My next dog is a MAS


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Thank you! That information was very helpful! I will for sure ask more questions when I think of any.


Please dont hesitate to ask! I am not usually on the forum in the evenings but am on most days, the best way to reach me is on FB if you have it.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

My Aussie is only ever noisy when 1) he thinks he needs to defend me, and 2) when he can't get his toys out from underneath the couch or the coffee table.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

How is the shedding and grooming? And how much exercise do they need?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Shedding is kind of in clumps that you can pick up off of the ground. Their coats blow out 2 times a year. You do have to brush them every other day though.

For exercise, it's mostly mental stimulation. They are a working dog so they will be happiest with a job to do. I am getting mine in to Agility and Dock Diving when he's old enough, and working on things like "sit" "stay" "leave it" as well as a plethora of other useful things I've found on Kikopups youtube channel (which I highly recommend looking in to regardless of what breed of dog you are getting)

That being said, that doesn't mean that MAS are exempt from daily walks (when at the appropriate age)


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Are Miniature American Shepherds, Miniature Australian Shepherd, and "mini Aussies" the same?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yep they shed throughout the year minimally, and twice a year they blow their coats, and when they do it is hair everywhere haha


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Canyx said:


> Are Miniature American Shepherds, Miniature Australian Shepherd, and "mini Aussies" the same?


All one and the same! Confusing isn't it?

Some Australian Shepherd owners are really anal about them not being "REAL" Australian Shepherds so people have started calling them Miniature American Shepherds, which IMO is actually more accurate, considering Australian Shepherds technically originated in the USA


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## DogTheGreat (Jul 9, 2015)

Canyx said:


> Are Miniature American Shepherds, Miniature Australian Shepherd, and "mini Aussies" the same?


There is no size variation of the Australian Shepherd as the parent club (ASCA) doesn't approve of it. But yes, in day-to-day talk, people are referring to the same thing pretty much. Personally, I'm happy more and more people are starting to use MAS. 

@OP, grooming and such will vary some depending on the coat. There is variation between lines and some have a lot of coat and a heavy undercoat, while others have significantly less coat. Matting shouldn't be a problem as long as you brush once a week or so.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Yeah it's very confusing! I prefer the term Miniature American Shepherd myself though. I think I found a pretty cool breeder, but it would be at least a year before I get a pup. I heard about the furminator, is that a good thing?


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## DogTheGreat (Jul 9, 2015)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Yeah it's very confusing! I prefer the term Miniature American Shepherd myself though. I think I found a pretty cool breeder, but it would be at least a year before I get a pup. I heard about the furminator, is that a good thing?


No furminators for double coats.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Yeah it's very confusing! I prefer the term Miniature American Shepherd myself though. I think I found a pretty cool breeder, but it would be at least a year before I get a pup. I heard about the furminator, is that a good thing?


There are mixed reviews - some say it helps, some say it's useless with dogs that have the long double-coat.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

missc89 said:


> There are mixed reviews - some say it helps, some say it's useless with dogs that have the long double-coat.





DogTheGreat said:


> No furminators for double coats.


Oh, that's good to know. Are MASes good for first time dog owners?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MAS are the AKC offshoot of Mini Aussies. Some breeders opted to not go with the AKC and instead register with a separate breed club and still consider their dogs Mini aussies. The only people I know that use Miniature American shepherds are those who are very particular to explain that their dogs are the AKC version. Right now the two are the same but if they stay split they will end up being separate breeds. Toy Aussies also have another separate registry however some breeder breed both toys and minis together.

If I were to get one, I'd go with a Mini American because they seem more consistent.

I was at agility last night with over a dozen mini and toy aussies (no AKC dogs though I know some). Wide wide variety. From 8 lbs to 35+ lbs. Fine boned, heavy. Toyish or not toyish. Calm to very wild.

The breed varies a LOT in size. One of my friends has a mini roughly Hank sized (so mid 20 lbs) and his dad was 70 lbs. One other friend has MAS that are 15 lbs and then one 30 lb from the same breeder. Both girls too. 

Some are very high drive and bold and probably even higher energy/drive than the average aussie but a lot are pretty soft and small. Some are very toyish in features and I know several that are Mia and Summer sized or almost. They are very very popular here in dog sports.

So basically what I'm saying is the breed is not very established yet and you have to be careful to find someone producing consistently what you want. And also still be prepared for variety. They just are not that separated from Aussies yet so you can easily get something full aussie (or nearly) sized too.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Laurelin said:


> MAS are the AKC offshoot of Mini Aussies. Some breeders opted to not go with the AKC and instead register with a separate breed club and still consider their dogs Mini aussies. The only people I know that use Miniature American shepherds are those who are very particular to explain that their dogs are the AKC version. Right now the two are the same but if they stay split they will end up being separate breeds. Toy Aussies also have another separate registry however some breeder breed both toys and minis together.
> 
> If I were to get one, I'd go with a Mini American because they seem more consistent.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's why I'm trying to be very careful with breeders. I've heard before that they vary A LOT. I've heard of Dynasty MASes, and I was wondering if they seem like a good breeder? Are there any red flags?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

My training partner/student has a MAS. WOW! What great little dogs. However, their breed rescues are teeming with incredible dogs who have lost their homes. They absolutely aren't right for everyone.

Seems like many lose their homes for nipping and hyperactivity. While there certainly is a lot of variance from individual to individual, the dog I train with is PSYCHO. He needs a ton of exercise and lots of mental stimulation or he goes nuts. I've hung around with others who are much more mild. 

I think my next dog is a MAS. Because there are so many incredible ones to chose from in rescue, I will probably get an adult rehome. One advantage of going that route is that you will sort of know who the dogs are. Unfortunately, there are probably more active dogs than passive ones available. Since that's what I'm looking for, it works for me!


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> My training partner/student has a MAS. WOW! What great little dogs. However, their breed rescues are teeming with incredible dogs who have lost their homes. They absolutely aren't right for everyone.
> 
> Seems like many lose their homes for nipping and hyperactivity. While there certainly is a lot of variance from individual to individual, the dog I train with is PSYCHO. He needs a ton of exercise and lots of mental stimulation or he goes nuts. I've hung around with others who are much more mild.
> 
> I think my next dog is a MAS. Because there are so many incredible ones to chose from in rescue, I will probably get an adult rehome. One advantage of going that route is that you will sort of know who the dogs are. Unfortunately, there are probably more active dogs than passive ones available. Since that's what I'm looking for, it works for me!


Thank you so much! Yeah, I've heard that they can be very hyper. I think I can handle it though.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Why a MAS over a Sheltie?


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Kathyy said:


> Why a MAS over a Sheltie?


And who mentioned a Sheltie?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Kathyy said:


> Why a MAS over a Sheltie?


Maybe not directed at me but to me that's like asking why an aussie and not a collie. Or something like that. They're similar breeds but not the same.



Ilovedogs56 said:


> And who mentioned a Sheltie?


I think she's just asking why you'd want an MAS instead of a sheltie since the breeds are pretty similar.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Oh, well they are pretty similar but I'm still learning about the both of them.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

I've been looking at Dynasty MASes a bit more, and they seem pretty good.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Just popped into my head. Really never connected the dots before but Shelties, mini Aussies? Not much different so long as you go for working/sporting lines.

At agility I've met lots of Aussies, a few mini Aussies and lots of Shelties. All bark a lot, all are wonderful smart funny bouncy dogs and usually excel in agility. Shelties are a more established breed than NAS or MAS or mini Aussies, whichever line you are looking at, and close to size and temperament and all so far as I can tell. Health maybe? 

I'd be hard pressed to choose between NAS with a tail and a Sheltie.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

It's funny: I would never own a sheltie but I want a MAS. I perceive the difference to be something about "toughness." In my very limited experience, shelties are much more sensitive. It's that sensitivity that I don't like. But the MAS seems more durable, more tolerant of handler pressure/mistakes.

I wonder if I am wrong about this... I certainly am basing my feelings/thoughts on limited experiences.

MAS seem to live a bit larger and louder. Seem more bold.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MAS and shelties are about as similar as aussies and collies - and possibly less alike than shelties and BC. Their size is about the same, yes, and they're both in the herding group, and I guess they're both kind of fluffy. 

But that's where the similarities stop. It's kind of like saying 'well, if you want a pap, why not get a long haired chi' or 'if you want a JRT, why not get a Rat Terrier?' or even 'so you want a German Shepherd, why not get a Mal?' Not that there's an 'easier/harder' one in all of those, but just because they look kind of the same and are in the same breed group doesn't mean they aren't pretty different. 

I would LOVE a sheltie. I do not particularly want a MAS. I will own another BC. I have little desire to ever own an aussie (there is ONE local working breeder around here I might make an exception for, and of course adult rescues who are outside the norm are always possible). I like my herders not just high energy, but also kind of loud, kind of quirky, a little neurotic, and most of all EXTREMELY soft and sensitive. I don't *want* a rough and tumble, physical, hard dog. 

Are there hard Shelties? Yes. Are there soft MAS? Sure. 

But as a rule - What I want exists in shelties and what other people exists in MAS. They're not... the same dog in a different package.



trainingjunkie said:


> It's funny: I would never own a sheltie but I want a MAS. I perceive the difference to be something about "toughness." In my very limited experience, shelties are much more sensitive. It's that sensitivity that I don't like. But the MAS seems more durable, more tolerant of handler pressure/mistakes.
> 
> I wonder if I am wrong about this... I certainly am basing my feelings/thoughts on limited experiences.
> 
> MAS seem to live a bit larger and louder. Seem more bold.


From my limited perceptions, I'd agree with that - even if I'm on the opposite side of the coin.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Couldn't of said it better myself, just like I would prefer a MAS, you would prefer a Shelite.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

trainingjunkie said:


> It's funny: I would never own a sheltie but I want a MAS. I perceive the difference to be something about "toughness." In my very limited experience, shelties are much more sensitive. It's that sensitivity that I don't like. But the MAS seems more durable, more tolerant of handler pressure/mistakes.
> 
> I wonder if I am wrong about this... I certainly am basing my feelings/thoughts on limited experiences.
> 
> MAS seem to live a bit larger and louder. Seem more bold.


That's a pretty fair assessment. I prefer a GOOD MAS to a good sheltie if I'm honest. I find overall MAS to be more physical, more exuberant energy. Something is pretty different about their energy styles and general temperaments. Even with the drivey shelties and quiet MAS. One of my friends has a really kind little MAS who is also a really fast and fun agility dog but he still doesn't act sheltie ish. 

I think it's easier to say... find a really really awesome agility dog in a sheltie. MAS are a crapshoot a bit though performance lines are certainly becoming more of a thing in MAS. I see more MAS in sports outside agility/obedience. Shelties don't seem to be great flyball dogs or disc dogs usually but MAS often are.

A lot of people also prefer MAS because it's easier to find less coat in them. A lot of people also don't much care for the pointy face/small eyes look in shelties. That is a factor for me too.

I dunno. It's kind of like me trying to explain why I enjoy goldens more than labs. Just kind of a feeling. I'd have an MAS over a sheltie (well... not counting my past shelties!) That said I'd prefer the average sheltie to a good number of MAS I see. So I'd have to be really picky. I know where to find good shelties and don't know MAS as well so that's another factor.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Yeah, that's the thing with the MAS, they be horrible or amazing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

In fairness, there are some AWESOME MAS that I see around agility. Some of them aren't my kind of dog, and a lot of the ones locally are really, really little, but as I get out more I see more decent sized ones. Also we have a couple in our agility club now that have 3 that I like quite a bit. 

It's just the ones I would own are still anomalies and honestly look and present like very small BC than aussies. That energy thing.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Yeah, that's why I _kinda_ want to go with a puppy to raise it right. Maybe that's just me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, if it's important to you the puppy is the opposite of what you want. No amount of raising it 'right' is going to change a dog's basic temperament. It's not going to make a shy, aloof, sensitive dog harder or the reverse.

I love puppies, but you really have to be willing to (to some degree) take what you get.


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## DogTheGreat (Jul 9, 2015)

I'd really suggest you meeting at least a few dogs of a breed before deciding on one. (since from your threads it seems like you haven't)


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

I didn't think of it that way. Yeah, that makes sense. However, a puppy is still not out of the question though.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

DogTheGreat said:


> I'd really suggest you meeting at least a few dogs of a breed before deciding on one. (since from your threads it seems like you haven't)


I will for sure!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> I didn't think of it that way. Yeah, that makes sense. However, a puppy is still not out of the question though.


Sure. Just get a puppy because you want a puppy, not because you think you're going to mold it's personality and temperament to any real degree. They basically come hardwired with that, frankly, and all the raising in the world won't change it. 

Also, let me be really real here: 

No one raises a puppy 'right'. Some people do it really, really, wrong, but no one does it exactly right. You're *going* to mess up something, somewhere.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

CptJack said:


> Sure. Just get a puppy because you want a puppy, not because you think you're going to mold it's personality and temperament to any real degree. They basically come hardwired with that, frankly, and all the raising in the world won't change it.
> 
> Also, let me be really real here:
> 
> No one raises a puppy 'right'. Some people do it really, really, wrong, but no one does it exactly right. You're *going* to mess up something, somewhere.


Thank you so much! You and everyone else have been so helpful.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Are MASes fragile at all?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Are MASes fragile at all?


If you get a badly bred one with toy like features, they can be.

I mean... that's if you mean like delicate physically.

They can be handler sensitive/very soft too.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Well, that's good to know! Aren't you getting a MAS puppy next year?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Well, that's good to know! Aren't you getting a MAS puppy next year?


Technically the dog will just be a registered Australian Shepherd, but of a smaller "mini" size. The breeder does not believe in registering them as MAS because she does not want to imply that it's a different breed. -- All this stuff is a whole can of worms though (people have very strong opinions lol). But... in short, yes, I will be getting a Mini Aussie


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

taquitos said:


> Technically the dog will just be a registered Australian Shepherd, but of a smaller "mini" size. The breeder does not believe in registering them as MAS because she does not want to imply that it's a different breed. -- All this stuff is a whole can of worms though (people have very strong opinions lol). But... in short, yes, I will be getting a Mini Aussie


Yay! That's so cool!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> Why a MAS over a Sheltie?





Kathyy said:


> Just popped into my head. Really never connected the dots before but Shelties, mini Aussies? Not much different so long as you go for working/sporting lines.
> 
> At agility I've met lots of Aussies, a few mini Aussies and lots of Shelties. All bark a lot, all are wonderful smart funny bouncy dogs and usually excel in agility. Shelties are a more established breed than NAS or MAS or mini Aussies, whichever line you are looking at, and close to size and temperament and all so far as I can tell. Health maybe?
> 
> I'd be hard pressed to choose between NAS with a tail and a Sheltie.


No, no and no. MAS are NOTHING like a sheltie. No mopre than a collie is like an aussie.



CptJack said:


> Honestly, if it's important to you the puppy is the opposite of what you want. No amount of raising it 'right' is going to change a dog's basic temperament. It's not going to make a shy, aloof, sensitive dog harder or the reverse.
> 
> I love puppies, but you really have to be willing to (to some degree) take what you get.


This. I would talk with the breeder, tell them what you want in a dog and what kind of temperament best suits you as a person (you might have to think about this long and hard, I know I did).

Take me for example: I need a very "type A" kind of dog, a confident dog who isnt phased by my anxiety, or my outbursts due to my ADHD, he cant be startled by sudden movements (I jump up a lot when I remember something lmao). I also have a very commanding presence and a dog has to be able to deal with that and not fold.



taquitos said:


> Technically the dog will just be a registered Australian Shepherd, but of a smaller "mini" size. The breeder does not believe in registering them as MAS because she does not want to imply that it's a different breed. -- All this stuff is a whole can of worms though (people have very strong opinions lol). But... in short, yes, I will be getting a Mini Aussie


I dont know if I would feel comfortable buying from that breeder.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I dont know if I would feel comfortable buying from that breeder.


Why? She tests eyes, hips, knees and checks for the MDR-1 gene, she has a specific breeding goal and titles all dogs in her breeding program. The only difference is that she chooses to register them with the ASCA because she breeds both larger and smaller Aussies. MAS have a very limited gene pool across the border here in Canada, she wouldn't be able to do nearly as much with MASCA registered dogs.

Differences in opinion as to whether Aussies of smaller stature should be classified a different breed is simply an opinion, not a testament to how reputable a breeder is. Aussies are working dogs in the end, regardless of size, and before standardization (and even now) they have come in a variety of sizes. Why would it make her not reputable for choosing to call her dogs Aussies, which is what they essentially are?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

But aussies do have a minimum size requirement, they dont have a maximum.



> Differences in opinion as to whether Aussies of smaller stature should be classified a different breed is simply an opinion, not a testament to how reputable a breeder is. Aussies are working dogs in the end, regardless of size, and before standardization (and even now) they have come in a variety of sizes. Why would it make her not reputable for choosing to call her dogs Aussies, which is what they essentially are?


It does here in the states, here a MAS breeder who operated like that would be frowned upon.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Are MASes fragile at all?


Some of the Minis and toys I know are tiny and fine boned. There is a breeder nearby that breeds both and her dogs are common in sports here. There's a couple Mini American Shepherd breeders here too and while their dogs are bigger and more aussie like (all look like aussies) a couple are still small (15 lbs or so) and one is pretty timid and soft. To be honest, I would say a good number of the Mini Aussies, Toy Aussies, Mini Americans are very soft/timid dogs. An equal number aren't and are outgoing and crazy. I will say the bolder ones all seem to be bigger dogs.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> But aussies do have a minimum size requirement, they dont have a maximum.
> 
> 
> 
> It does here in the states, here a MAS breeder who operated like that would be frowned upon.


Per breed standard if you show the dog... not if you are getting a working dog??? There is a maximum size for showing Aussies, it's 23" for males and 21" for females (Check AKC and ASCA).

She doesn't claim to be a MAS breeder so she isn't one?? And what is the problem exactly, like why would it be frowned upon? You're not really answering why...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

taquitos said:


> Per breed standard if you show the dog... not if you are getting a working dog??? There is a maximum size for showing Aussies, it's 23" for males and 21" for females (Check AKC and ASCA).
> 
> She doesn't claim to be a MAS breeder so she isn't one?? And what is the problem exactly, like why would it be frowned upon? You're not really answering why...


Yeah, there would be no problem with an Aussie breeder breeding small dogs that worked and were what they wanted - like at all. There might be some frowning if they promoted themselves as breeding 'mini aussies', since well, size as the primary goal from breeding isn't something a lot of folk love for lots of reasons, but breeding smaller aussies in and of itself isn't an issue. 

Since she's... well, an aussie breeder. I think maybe some of the people who are confused here are confused because they're not getting that you are getting an *AUSSIE*, not a MAS.

*ETA:* Also both AKC and ASCA say: 
SIZE: Preferred height at the withers for males is 20 to 23 inches; that for females is 18 to 21 inches, however, quality is not to be sacrificed in favor of size.

Which means pretty much there's no DQ for size. Preference, yes, basically being 'medium', but quality first.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, there would be no problem with an Aussie breeder breeding small dogs that worked and were what they wanted - like at all. There might be some frowning if they promoted themselves as breeding 'mini aussies', since well, size as the primary goal from breeding isn't something a lot of folk love for lots of reasons, but breeding smaller aussies in and of itself isn't an issue.
> 
> Since she's... well, an aussie breeder. I think maybe some of the people who are confused here are confused because they're not getting that you are getting an *AUSSIE*, not a MAS.


Well I guess I wasn't making that much of a distinction because she *does* mark some litters as "Mini" if she is aware that there will be smaller dogs... but no, she does not advertise herself as a "Miniature American Shepherd" breeder. Her number 1 thing is a versatile dog that can work, regardless of "breed standard" sizing. She DOES show some of her dogs and some of her lines are show lines... but quite frankly I don't see what the problem is even with that if she is keeping track of her pedigree, health testing, and homing responsibly.

My concern was never having a dog that fits a standard. My concern was finding a dog that fits ME. Which is a small, athletic, energetic, biddable dog with toy/food drive, that is able to get along with all my pets. Her dogs fit that bill.

I think maybe this is all just kind of confusing because a "Mini Aussie" is not a "real" breed, and there are breeders out there who do not want to have the breed be separated... but again, all that controversy has very little to do with whether or not the breeder is a good/bad one imo...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly, there's good arguments on both sides for wanting the breeds to separate or not. It'll be interesting to see how all the chips fall. Right now there's essentially 4 breeds/varieties that overlap a LOT (Aussie, Mini American, Mini Aussie, Toy Aussies) with various registries. Mini American Shepherd was kind of an attempt to please everyone but there are a lot of people that don't want to go that route.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Honestly, there's good arguments on both sides for wanting the breeds to separate or not. It'll be interesting to see how all the chips fall. Right now there's essentially 4 breeds/varieties that overlap a LOT (Aussie, Mini American, Mini Aussie, Toy Aussies) with various registries. Mini American Shepherd was kind of an attempt to please everyone but there are a lot of people that don't want to go that route.


Yeah it's all very messy and confusing lol which is why I'm not so concerned on this end... because it doesn't really affect me or how healthy the dog will be. It's just not something that makes me go "well I'm not going to go with this breeder," you know?

My main thing is, the breeder must have a specific goal, must breed healthy dogs, must regularly test, and must home responsibly. She ticks all those boxes and I am happy with the dogs she offers. End of story.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It is also interesting to me how the view on how 'legitimate' the breed is has changed in the last few years. The people I know here with Toy Aussies are generally people who have been involved in dog showing and sports and breeding (other breeds) for a long, long time. Many of them even show their toy aussies in rare breed shows. (My friend's toy aussie is a champion) It's not a real cut and dried issues here.


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## DogTheGreat (Jul 9, 2015)

taquitos said:


> Why? She tests eyes, hips, knees and checks for the MDR-1 gene, she has a specific breeding goal and titles all dogs in her breeding program. The only difference is that she chooses to register them with the ASCA because she breeds both larger and smaller Aussies. MAS have a very limited gene pool across the border here in Canada, she wouldn't be able to do nearly as much with MASCA registered dogs.


She's intentionally breeding Aussies smaller than the breed standard and still registering them with the ASCA? Does she advertise them as mini Aussies or just Aussies and say they tend to be on the small side??


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

DogTheGreat said:


> She's intentionally breeding Aussies smaller than the breed standard and still registering them with the ASCA? Does she advertise them as mini Aussies or just Aussies and say they tend to be on the small side??


She breeds regular Aussies registered with the ASCA but has some smaller registered under NSDR in her program. She advertises some litters as tentatively being "mini" but does not guarantee size (nor is it her priority to breed smaller Aussies).


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

So basically, she breeds regular Aussies but minis are still a possibility? That seems pretty okay to me.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> So basically, she breeds regular Aussies but minis are still a possibility? That seems pretty okay to me.


Kind of, yeah. She does breed them on the smaller side (16"-20").

Regardless of whether it's to standard or not, though, I am just happy she isn't breeding for profit and she health tests and titles.

It's very hard to find Aussie breeders here who do not dock (she does for show potentials, but not for pets and sometimes makes exceptions for dogs who will be in her breeding program) and who prefer a less showy (with all the fluff and the chunkiness) look, who also are able to work and maintain the instincts.

I don't want a show bred dog. I want a working line but I'm not sure I could handle 100% working lines. She's a good compromise because she knows the pedigree of all her dogs and the litter I will be considered for is 1/4 show, 3/4 working.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

That's pretty cool that you found a breeder you like! I think my breeder will be Wigglebutt or Dynasty.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

DogTheGreat said:


> She's intentionally breeding Aussies smaller than the breed standard and still registering them with the ASCA? Does she advertise them as mini Aussies or just Aussies and say they tend to be on the small side??


this explains it far better than I could have LOL.



> I don't want a show bred dog. I want a working line but I'm not sure I could handle 100% working lines. She's a good compromise because she knows the pedigree of all her dogs and the litter I will be considered for is 1/4 show, 3/4 working.


There should be no split in any breed, there should just be aussies, or MAS, or BC etc. 

Lincoln is from pure foundation aussie working lines, and he isnt a crazy idiot, a true working dog shouldnt be go go go all the time with no off switch, then they wouldnt have the energy to REALLY work when they needed to. Also, the aussie (which was the foundation breed for the MAS so this reference is relevant) was originally a multi purpose farm dog, so they should be able to work all day in the field, and come home and guard the master's house at night.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

If they're on the smaller side, and they're not MASes or mini Aussies, what are they?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> If they're on the smaller side, and they're not MASes or mini Aussies, what are they?


That's the trouble with the Mini Aussie/MAS/Aussie controversy lol. They're all just labels it doesn't really mean much in the end. You could call them Aussies or Mini Aussies I suppose. The breeder does not mind either but does not like the term, MAS because it implies that it's a separate breed, which it is not (her stock anyway).


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> this explains it far better than I could have LOL.


That doesn't explain anything, actually lol


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

What's the difference between her stock of "small Aussies" and others? I mean, why doesn't she like the term MAS? She sounds like a pretty good breeder, with all the health testing.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> What's the difference between her stock of "small Aussies" and others? I mean, why doesn't she like the term MAS? She sounds like a pretty good breeder, with all the health testing.


MAS (Miniature American Shepherd), implies that it's a separate breed from Australian Shepherds (which they aren't).


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## DogTheGreat (Jul 9, 2015)

I believe with the standardization of breeding, there will eventually be enough split to justify the different breed names. Until then, you will continue to get a whole lot of poorly bred "Aussies". (Not referring to your breeder specifically!! No idea about their practices, etc).


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

DogTheGreat said:


> I believe with the standardization of breeding, there will eventually be enough split to justify the different breed names. Until then, you will continue to get a whole lot of poorly bred "Aussies". (Not referring to your breeder specifically!! No idea about their practices, etc).


I agree, there is already a split in the MAS, the people who went "mini aussie" are mostly breeders I personally wouldnt buy from.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Ohhh, I get it now. That's very confusing lol. Owned by Acds? How was Lincoln when he was a puppy?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> If they're on the smaller side, and they're not MASes or mini Aussies, what are they?


Aussies ... nothing more and nothing less, aussies have NO "offical" size constraints, they have a preferred size margin, but quality is not to be sacrificed for size.

If you dont believe me, here is the aussie standard, as c/p from the ASCA website:

INTRODUCTION: First and foremost, the Australian Shepherd is a true working stockdog, and anything that detracts from his usefulness as such is undesirable. The most important breed characteristics are overall moderation in size and bone, balance with correct proportions, and sound movement

GENERAL APPEARANCE: The Australian Shepherd is a well-balanced dog of medium size and bone. He is attentive and animated, showing strength and stamina combined with unusual agility. Slightly longer than tall, he has a coat of moderate length and coarseness with coloring that offers variety and individuality in each specimen. An identifying characteristic is his natural or docked bobtail. In each sex, masculinity or femininity is well defined.

CHARACTER: The Australian Shepherd is primarily a working dog of strong herding and guardian instincts. He is an intelligent, exceptional companion. He is versatile and easily trained: performing his assigned tasks with great style and enthusiasm. He is reserved with strangers but does not exhibit shyness. This unusually versatile stockdog works with the power and quickness to control difficult cattle as well as the ability to move sheep without unnecessary roughness. Although an aggressive, authoritative worker, viciousness toward people or animals is intolerable.

HEAD: The head is clean-cut, strong, dry, and in proportion to the body. The topskull is flat to slightly rounded; its length and width each equal to the length of the muzzle. The muzzle is of medium width and depth and tapers gradually to a rounded tip, without appearing heavy or snipey. Lips are close fitting, meeting at the mouthline. The toplines of the muzzle and topskull appear close to parallel. The stop is moderate but well defined.
TEETH: A full complement of strong white teeth meet in a scissors bite. A level bite is a fault. Teeth broken or missing by accident are not penalized. All other missing teeth should be faulted to the degree that they deviate from a full complement of 42 teeth.

DISQUALIFICATIONS: Undershot bite, Overshot bite, Wry Mouth

EYES: The eyes are very expressive, showing attentiveness and intelligence. They are clear, almond-shaped, of moderate size, and set a little obliquely, neither prominent nor sunken. The pupils are dark, well defined, and perfectly positioned. Eye color is brown, blue, amber; or any variation or combination, including flecks and marbling. All eye colors are acceptable in combination with all coat colors.
Faults: Any deviation from almond-shaped eyes.

EARS: The ears are set high on the side of the head, are triangular, of moderate size and slightly rounded at the tip. The tip of the ear reaches to, but not further than, the inside corner of the nearest eye. At full attention, the ears should lift from one-quarter (1/4) to one-half (1/2) above the base and break forward or slightly to the side.
Severe Faults: Prick ears; overly large ears; low set ears with no lift from the base.

NECK AND BODY: The neck is firm, clean, and in proportion to the body. It is of medium length and slightly arched at the crest, setting well into the shoulders. The body is firm and muscular. The topline appears level at a natural four-square stance. The bottom line carries well back with a moderate tuck-up. The chest is deep and strong with ribs well sprung. The loin is strong and broad when viewed from the top. The croup is moderately sloping. The Tail is straight, not to exceed four (4) inches, natural bobtail or docked.

FOREQUARTERS: The shoulder blades (scapula) are well laid back, with the upper arm (humerus) slightly longer than the shoulder blade. Both the upper arm and shoulder blade are well muscled. The forelegs are straight and strong, perpendicular to the ground, with moderate bone. The point of the elbow is set under the withers and is equidistant from the withers to the ground. Pasterns are short, thick, and strong, but still flexible, showing a slight angle when viewed from the side. Feet are oval shaped, compact, with close knit, well-arched toes. Pads are thick and resilient; nails short and strong. Dewclaws may be removed.

HINDQUARTERS: Width of hindquarters is approximately equal to the width of the forequarters at the shoulder. The angulation of the pelvis and upper thigh (femur) corresponds to the angulation of the shoulder blade and upper arm. The upper and lower thigh are well muscled. Stifles are clearly defined; hock joints moderately bent. The metatarsi are short, perpendicular to the ground, and parallel to each other when viewed from the rear. Feet are oval shaped, compact, with close-knit, well-arched toes. Pads are thick and resilient; nails short and strong. Rear dewclaws are removed.

COAT: The coat is of medium length and texture, straight to slightly wavy, and weather resistant. The undercoat varies in quantity with climate. Hair is short and smooth on the head, outside of ears, front of forelegs, and below the hocks. Backs of forelegs are moderately feathered and breeches are moderately full. There is a moderate mane, more pronounced in dogs than bitches. The Australian Shepherd is a working dog and is to be shown with a natural coat.
Severe Faults: Non-typical coats such as excessively long; overabundant/profuse; wiry; or curly.

COLOR: All colors are strong, clear and rich. The recognized colors are blue merle, red (liver) merle, solid black, and solid red (liver) all with or without white markings and/or tan (copper) points with no order of preference. The blue merle and black have black pigmentation on nose, lips and eye-rims. Reds and red merles have liver pigmentation on nose, lips and eye rims. Butterfly nose should not be faulted under one year of age. On all colors the areas surrounding the ears and eyes are dominated by color other than white. The hairline of a white collar does not exceed the point at the withers.
Disqualifications: Other than recognized colors. White body splashes. Dudley nose.

GAIT: Smooth, free, and easy, exhibiting agility of movement with a well-balanced natural stride. As speed increases, both front and rear feet converge equally toward the centerline of gravity beneath the body. The top line remains firm and level. When viewed from the side the trot is effortless, exhibiting facility of movement rather than a hard driving action. Exaggerated reach and drive at the trot are not desirable. Gait faults shall be penalized according to the degree of deviation from the ideal.

SIZE: Preferred height at the withers for males is 20 to 23 inches; that for females is 18 to 21 inches, however, quality is not to be sacrificed in favor of size.

In contrast, here is the MAS breed standard:

General Appearance: The Miniature American Shepherd is a small size herding dog that originated in the United States. He is slightly longer than tall with bone that is moderate and in proportion to body size and height without extremes. Movement is smooth, easy, and balanced. Exceptional agility combined with strength and stamina allows for working over a variety of terrain. This highly versatile, energetic dog makes an excellent athlete with superior intelligence and a willingness to please those to whom he is devoted. He is both a loyal companion and a biddable worker, which is evident in his watchful expression. The double coat of medium length and coarseness may be solid in color or merled, with or without white and/or tan (copper) markings. He traditionally has a docked or natural bobtail.

Size, Proportion and Substance:

Size: Height for dogs is 14 inches up to and including 18 inches at the top of the withers. Height for bitches is 13 inches up to and including 17 inches at the top of withers. Disqualification: under 14 inches and over 18 inches for dogs; under 13 inches and over 17 inches for bitches. The minimum heights set forth in this breed standard shall not apply to dogs or bitches under six months of age. Proportion: Measuring from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttocks and from the highest point of the shoulder blade to the ground, he is slightly longer than tall. Substance: Solidly built with moderate bone in proportion to body height and size. Structure in the dog reflects masculinity without coarseness. Bitches appear feminine without being slight of bone.

Head: the head is clean-cut, dry, and in proportion to the body. 

Expression: Alert, attentive and intelligent. May express a reserved look and/or be watchful of strangers. Eyes: The eyes are set obliquely, almond shaped, neither protruding nor sunken and in proportion to the head. Acceptable in all coat colors, one or both eyes may be brown, blue, hazel, amber or any color combination thereof, including flecks and marbling. The eye rims of the reds and red merles have full red (liver) pigmentation. The eye rims of the blacks and blue merles have full black pigmentation.

Ears: Are triangular, of moderate size, set high on the head. At full attention they break forward and over, or to the side as a rose ear. 

Severe Fault: Prick ears and ears that hang with no lift. 

Skull: The crown is flat to slightly round and may show a slight occipital protuberance. The width and the length of the crown are equal. Stop: The stop is moderate but defined. 

Muzzle: The muzzle is of medium width and depth and tapers gradually to a rounded tip without appearing heavy, square, snipy, or loose. Length is equal to the length of the crown. 

Planes: Viewed from the side, the muzzle and the top line of the crown are slightly oblique to each other, with the front of the crown on a slight angle downward toward the nose. 

Nose: Red merles and reds have red (liver) pigmentation on the nose leather. Blue merles and blacks have black pigmentation on the nose leather. Fully pigmented noses are preferred. Noses that are less than fully pigmented will be faulted. Severe Fault: 25-50% un-pigmented nose leather. Disqualification: Over 50% un-pigmented nose leather. 

Bite: A full complement of teeth meet in a scissor bite. Teeth broken, missing or discolored by accident are not penalized. Disqualification: Undershot or overshot bite.

Neck, Topline and Body:The overall structure gives an impression of depth and strength without bulkiness. Neck: The neck is firm, clean, and in proportion to the body. It is of medium length and slightly arched at the crest, fitting well into the shoulders. Topline: The back is firm and level from the withers to the hip joint when standing or moving. Loin: The loin is strong and broad when viewed from the top. Croup: The croup is moderately sloped. Body: The body is firm and well conditioned. Chest and Ribs: The chest is full and deep, reaching to the elbow, with well sprung ribs. Underline: The underline shows a moderate tuck-up. Tail: A docked or natural bobtail is preferred. A docked tail is straight, not to exceed three (3) inches. The undocked tail when at rest may hang in a slight curve. When excited or in motion the tail may be carried raised with the curve accentuated.

Forequarters: The forequarters are well conditioned and balanced with the hindquarters. Shoulders: Shoulder blades (scapula) are long, flat, fairly close set at the withers, and well laid back. Upper arm: The upper arm (humerus) is equal in length to the shoulder blade and meets the shoulder blade at an approximate right angle. The forelegs drop straight and perpendicular to the ground. Elbow: The elbow joint is equidistant from the ground to the withers. Viewed from the side, the elbow should be directly under the withers. The elbows should be close to the ribs without looseness. Legs: The legs are straight and strong. The bone is oval rather than round. Pasterns: Short, thick and strong, but still flexible, showing a slight angle when viewed from the side. Feet: Oval shaped, compact, with close-knit, well-arched toes. Pads are thick and resilient; nails are short and strong. The nails may be any color combination. Dewclaws should be removed.

Hindquarters: Width of hindquarters is approximately equal to the width of the forequarters at the shoulders. Angulation: The angulation of the pelvis and upper thigh (femur) mirrors the angulation of the shoulder blade and upper arm, forming an approximate right angle. Stifle: Stifles are clearly defined. Hock: The hocks are short, perpendicular to the ground and parallel to each other when viewed from the rear. Feet: Feet are oval, compact, with close knit, well arched toes. Pads are thick and resilient; nails are short and strong. The nails may be any color combination. Rear dewclaws should be removed.

Coat:Moderation is the overall impression of the coat. Hair is of medium texture, straight to wavy, weather resistant, and of medium length. The undercoat varies in quantity with variations in climate. Hair is short and smooth on the head and front of the legs. The backs of forelegs and breeches are moderately feathered. There is a moderate mane and frill, more pronounced in dogs than in bitches. Hair may be trimmed on the ears, feet, back of hocks, pasterns, and tail, otherwise he is to be shown in a natural coat. Untrimmed whiskers are preferred. Severe Fault: Non-typical coats.

Color:The coloring offers variety and individuality. With no order of preference, the recognized colors are black, blue merle, red (liver) and red merle. The merle will exhibit in any amount, marbling, flecks or blotches. Undercoats may be somewhat lighter in color than the topcoat. Asymmetrical markings are not to be faulted. Tan Markings: Tan markings are not required but when present are acceptable in any or all of the following areas; around the eyes, on the feet, legs, chest, muzzle, underside of neck, face, underside of ear, underline of body, under the base of the tail and the breeches. Tan markings vary in shades from creamy beige to dark rust, with no preference. Blending with the base color or merle pattern may be present on the face, legs, feet, and breeches. White Markings: White markings are not required but when present do not dominate. Ticking may be present in white markings. White on the head does not predominate, and the eyes are fully surrounded by color and pigment. Red merles and reds have red (liver) pigmentation on the eye rims. Blue merles and blacks have black pigmentation on the eye rims. Ears fully covered by color are preferred. Severe Fault: White markings covering over 25% of an ear. White markings may be in any combination and are restricted to: the muzzle, cheeks, crown, blaze on head, the neck in a partial or full collar, chest, belly, front legs, hind legs up the hock and may extend in a thin outline of the stifle. A small amount of white extending from the underline may be visible from the side, not to exceed one inch above the elbow. The hairline of a white collar does not exceed the withers at the skin. If a natural undocked tail is present, the tip of the tail may have white. Disqualifications: Other than recognized colors. White body splashes, which means any conspicuous, isolated spot or patch of white on the area between withers and tail, on back, or sides between elbows and back of hindquarters.

Gait:Smooth, free, and easy; exhibiting agility of movement with a well-balanced, ground-covering stride. Fore and hind legs move straight and parallel with the center line of the body; as speed increases, the feet, both front and rear, converge toward the center line of gravity of the dog, while the back remains firm and level. When traveling at a trot the head is carried in a natural position with neck extended forward and head nearly level or slightly above the topline. He must be agile and able to turn direction or alter gait instantly.

Temperament:The Miniature American Shepherd is intelligent, primarily a working dog of strong herding and guardian instincts. An exceptional companion, he is versatile and easily trained, performing his assigned tasks with great style and enthusiasm. Although reserved with strangers, he does not exhibit shyness. He is a resilient and persistent worker, who adjusts his demeanor and arousal appropriately to the task at hand. With his family he is protective, good natured, devoted and loyal.

DISQUALIFICATIONS: Under 14 inches and over 18 inches for dogs; under 13 inches and over 17 inches for bitches. The minimum heights set forth in this breed standard shall not apply to dogs or bitches under six months of age.
Over 50% un-pigmented nose leather.
Undershot or overshot bite.
Other than recognized colors. White body splashes, which means any conspicuous, isolated spot or patch of white on the area between withers and tail, on back, or sides between elbows and back of hindquarters.

AKC One-time DISQUALIFICATIONS:
Blindness
Deafness
Castration, spayed
Changed by artificial means
Attacks or vicious behavior

AKC Three-time DISQUALIFICATIONS:
Undescended testicles
Testicles not present


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Wow, quite a difference!


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

DogTheGreat said:


> I believe with the standardization of breeding, there will eventually be enough split to justify the different breed names. Until then, you will continue to get a whole lot of poorly bred "Aussies". (Not referring to your breeder specifically!! No idea about their practices, etc).


Sure it's just not my concern, you know? I'm not interested in showing I just want a good and healthy dog from someone who cares about what they're doing. She fits that. We all have different ideas of what a good/bad breeder is but that doesn't mean there are some concrete things we can all agree on and it's that the dogs and puppies from the said breeder should be bred and reared with the proper health checks and care.




OwnedbyACDs said:


> I agree, there is already a split in the MAS, the people who went "mini aussie" are mostly breeders I personally wouldnt buy from.


Well it's just not the same across the border. There are very few breeders who call Mini Aussies "MAS" here and I have met quite a few and they've all been knowledgeable and caring people who care about what they are bringing to the world. Most of these breeders are not concerned with showing but are concerned with the health and working ability of the dogs. Mini Aussies are almost exclusively owned by dog sport homes here and breeders are far and few between, even less for reputable breeders. There are only two I trust and it's this one and my agility instructor lol. So since you know nothing about my breeder and since no one asked you to validate my choice in breeder I ask that we no longer derail this thread lol!!


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Yeah, let's get back to MASes and not her choice of breeder.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

taquitos said:


> Sure it's just not my concern, you know? I'm not interested in showing I just want a good and healthy dog from someone who cares about what they're doing. She fits that. We all have different ideas of what a good/bad breeder is but that doesn't mean there are some concrete things we can all agree on and it's that the dogs and puppies from the said breeder should be bred and reared with the proper health checks and care.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree, we can always make a "MAS vs 'mini aussies' " thread, I suppose.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Ugh, I still can't choose! Dynasty is a very local and great breeder, but I heard better from Wigglebutts but they are farther away!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Ugh, I still can't choose! Dynasty is a very local and great breeder, but I heard better from Wigglebutts but they are farther away!


road trip!


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## DogTheGreat (Jul 9, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I agree, we can always make a "MAS vs 'mini aussies' " thread, I suppose.


I think we all know just about how well that'd turn out haha.



Ilovedogs56 said:


> Ugh, I still can't choose! Dynasty is a very local and great breeder, but I heard better from Wigglebutts but they are farther away!


No rush!! It sounds like you've only just started looking. If they have any public social media, then follow those and also consider shooting an email to them explaining your situation, etc. You'll be able to get a better feel for them and their dogs by personally speaking with them as opposed to reading off of a carefully made website.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

DogTheGreat said:


> I think we all know just about how well that'd turn out haha.
> 
> 
> 
> No rush!! It sounds like you've only just started looking. If they have any public social media, then follow those and also consider shooting an email to them explaining your situation, etc. You'll be able to get a better feel for them and their dogs by personally speaking with them as opposed to reading off of a carefully made website.


This, contacting a breeder early conveys your interest, at least IMO


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Yeah, I will! I think I like Wigglebutts a little better. Road trip for me I guess, heh.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Yeah, I will! I think I like Wigglebutts a little better. Road trip for me I guess, heh.


YAY, are you looking for a pet or another breeding prospect? They have a lot of stipulations on their breeding prospect dogs.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

I'm looking for a pet.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> I'm looking for a pet.


Great! I look forward to seeing your cute puppy pics! we might be getting puppies around the same time, so we can take turns spamming the web with their photos lmao.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Yeah, I will! I think I like Wigglebutts a little better. Road trip for me I guess, heh.


I have significant first-hand experience with Wigglebutts. Can't say enough good things about them. Love the breeder, love the dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I almost went with a Wigglebutt before I found Hank. Definitely an option for future breeder. I've heard a lot of good things.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> I have significant first-hand experience with Wigglebutts. Can't say enough good things about them. Love the breeder, love the dogs.


Yeah they are pretty awesome ... too bad they are so far away


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Here is my very favorite MAS and a beautiful representative of the Wigglebutt Excellence! He has made a believer out of me. Never met a smarter dog with a better attitude. This dog is the bomb. WHAT a performer. I am pretty sure I will eventually own one of his pups.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I will be jealous! I contacted the breeder and everything and then ended up getting Hank instead. lol I guess Hank is cool too. They are on my list of future breeds/breeders


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Wow! That dog is beautiful!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Isn't he! And he's smarter and more biddable than he is attractive. Great all-around dog. I have been so fortunate to be able to coach him (and his handler) for a year now. They both just blow me out of the water.

One more:


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

MAS are the only small breed I would currently consider. I haven't cared for them like I do Aussies, but I also have yet to truly meet a well bred one. They are currently so varied that finding a good breeder is absolutely key. I don't know anything about wigglebutt, but there is probably a reason they are the only one I have really heard about (and all positive). They are probably a lot like Aussies. Barky, prone to be reactive, bouncy etc. But Aussies are a whole lot of fun.. so I imagine MAS must be just as fun with less likelihood of knocking you over!

That dog is so gorgeous. Aaaaannnd now I want MAS from Wigglebutt too. It would be more financially practical to get a smaller one..


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

trainingjunkie said:


> Isn't he! And he's smarter and more biddable than he is attractive. Great all-around dog. I have been so fortunate to be able to coach him (and his handler) for a year now. They both just blow me out of the water.
> 
> One more:


That's Bounce, right? How big is he? He always looks pretty small in pictures.

I know a decent handful of Flagtree MAS and they're super neat. One young male from them is just one of the coolest dogs. He's gorgeous too.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Yes, that's Bounce. He is 15 inches I think. And he's amazing. Do you know him from my Facebook page or from somewhere else?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

No I just remember seeing his pictures on the breeder's website. I thought he was cute! 15" is a good size.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

That dog looks AMAZING!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

The breeder where my MAS came from did not show but used hers for herding. She had goats, sheep, and ducks. Hers was working stock and registered with the stock dog register. Mine is great inside but outside he is in constant motion. Always on the alert keeping an eye on everything. Some breeders will charge more for color and the big thing is eye color for price. This breeder did not charge any different for color or eye color. What I liked is she had both parents and some of the grand parents on site. I liked that all of them had great temperaments and none of them showed any shyness. I went with this breeder because it was what I thought would be a great dog He is and is not fragile at all. He learns things very easily. Would I get another one? Probably not. It is just that I have owned one and my needs/wants have changed.


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

I'm falling in love with Wigglebutts more and more, just have to wait a little while!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> Isn't he! And he's smarter and more biddable than he is attractive. Great all-around dog. I have been so fortunate to be able to coach him (and his handler) for a year now. They both just blow me out of the water.
> 
> One more:


Stop it, you're killing me! next puppy for me wont be until next year or beyond.



ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> MAS are the only small breed I would currently consider. I haven't cared for them like I do Aussies, but I also have yet to truly meet a well bred one. They are currently so varied that finding a good breeder is absolutely key. I don't know anything about wigglebutt, but there is probably a reason they are the only one I have really heard about (and all positive). They are probably a lot like Aussies. Barky, prone to be reactive, bouncy etc. But Aussies are a whole lot of fun.. so I imagine MAS must be just as fun with less likelihood of knocking you over!
> 
> That dog is so gorgeous. Aaaaannnd now I want MAS from Wigglebutt too. It would be more financially practical to get a smaller one..


This, they dont eat as much and gawd ... as much as Lincoln crashes into me I fear what they would be like if he were 60 lbs and 24" not 34 lbs and 18" LOL



Laurelin said:


> No I just remember seeing his pictures on the breeder's website. I thought he was cute! 15" is a good size.


15" is a good size and its my size goal for my next potential MAS.



Ilovedogs56 said:


> I'm falling in love with Wigglebutts more and more, just have to wait a little while!


Once you meet a well bred one you will WANT! I wish you were closer, you could meet Lincoln, he would make you fall in love for sure


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Yeah, but I can tell he's awesome! I can't wait another 366+ days!


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

Eeeeee! I keep looking up MAS puppies why! I'm just glad Indiana is not far away!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Eeeeee! I keep looking up MAS puppies why! I'm just glad Indiana is not far away!


Are you drawn to one color more so than another color? If yes what color is that?


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## Ilovedogs56 (Apr 12, 2015)

luv mi pets said:


> Are you drawn to one color more so than another color? If yes what color is that?


I really like blue merle and red tri. But any color is great!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ilovedogs56 said:


> Eeeeee! I keep looking up MAS puppies why! I'm just glad Indiana is not far away!





Ilovedogs56 said:


> I really like blue merle and red tri. But any color is great!


LOL we are doing the same thing haha. I have to wait until around oct 2016 .... boo but it's soooo hard . I always wait too long to get another dog. I got Josefina when Izze was 10. and I got Lincoln when Josefina was 6 ... already too old to appreciate the puppy / teenage crazy LOL. So I want to try to get next dog when Lincoln is young enough to enjoy him LOL ... because he thinks that Josefina is a huge buzz kill lmao.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Here is the photo gallery from the first ever Miniature America Shepard National! Some unbelievable shots. This ought to make things worse for those having to wait to add one to their family! 

https://candidcanines.smugmug.com/2015-MASCUSA-NATIONAL/


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

trainingjunkie said:


> Here is the photo gallery from the first ever Miniature America Shepard National! Some unbelievable shots. This ought to make things worse for those having to wait to add one to their family!
> 
> https://candidcanines.smugmug.com/2015-MASCUSA-NATIONAL/


SOLD.

Seriously can't wait to possibly get one. <3


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> SOLD.
> 
> Seriously can't wait to possibly get one. <3


Isn't it an incredible collection! I wonder what's it's going to end up costing me!


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

I'm a vet tech and one of our local breeders just brought a room full of 8 week old MASs for their first exams/vaccines. It was a room of gloriousness, lol. And I'm not even particularly a herdy dog person


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

They are just as awesome as they look, too  a well bred one that is.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I've never met a well bred one. They're always so snippy nosed and buggy eyed, which just isn't very Aussie to me. Most of these ones are just gorgeous, and exactly what I would want. We'll see!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I totally missed their nationals and it was in town last year! 

Also I know quite a few dogs on that page.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> I totally missed their nationals and it was in town last year!
> 
> Also I know quite a few dogs on that page.


I was all set to go but then my husband's job took him out of town. I couldn't travel with all 3 dogs for that long. Bummed that I missed it. So, next year! And perhaps I will be close to getting a pup by then. I think my next dog will be a MAS. And it's getting close to time to start thinking about it. My youngsters are 4 now...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I've never met a well bred one. They're always so snippy nosed and buggy eyed, which just isn't very Aussie to me. Most of these ones are just gorgeous, and exactly what I would want. We'll see!


That's how you tell a well bred one  I have found that usually, the "mini aussies" are the ones that are the ones with toy features, because some breeders use toy breeds to get the size down faster.

If you ever want to get one, I am a member of a few FB MAS pages, including a couple of breeder pages, I can help you, just PM me your name on FB and I will add you to them 



trainingjunkie said:


> I was all set to go but then my husband's job took him out of town. I couldn't travel with all 3 dogs for that long. Bummed that I missed it. So, next year! And perhaps I will be close to getting a pup by then. I think my next dog will be a MAS. And it's getting close to time to start thinking about it. My youngsters are 4 now...


Maybe we'll see each other there? My goal is to be competing there in sports at the nationals next year!


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## Max151 (Sep 17, 2021)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> *Biddable:* yes
> 
> *Noisy:* YES!!!!!! You will know if the mail man is coming, trash is being picked up, your neighbors are outside, or a leaf falls in your yard, if they smell something new and strange, etc ... LOL.
> 
> ...


I'm very interested in these special breed but am scared to get puppy mill dog. And my next dog has to be under 40ush lbs. My last dog was a pit/weihmanner mix 15years, 17years with my Sheppard/collie mix. Appreciate any info. Thanks max


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

This thread is over six years old and most of the members participating haven't been active on this forum in a long time. Your question is likely to get lost at the end of a long thread like this, so I'm closing this old post to further replies and encourage you to start a new thread so our currently active members can offer their knowledge and experience with the MAS breed.


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