# So I'm a cattle dog owner



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

At least for the time being. My trainer thinks he's a keeper. I am trying to work to convince Mia he is. Mia loathes him. Summer is fine with him. He is very herdy and Mia is a grump so we are going slowly. I'm going to give it a month and see. When everyone is calm they are fine. 

But he is a 10 month old cattle dog and shrieky Mia makes him wild. Summer won't escalate things but Mia will and he will back. But overall I knew adding a high drive dog with Mia would be a challenge. I feel like it will work out with close supervision and monitoring. It is very early and they do tolerate each other most the time.

This dog is fun fun fun though. No tug but fetches like mad. I have never had a dog remotely as high energy. He is crazy active but also self entertains. He is 16 lbs. jury is out on if a mix or not. His temperament is 100% ACD and my trainer thinks he may just be a tiny one. But to me his head looks rat terrier. He is goofy and already very attached to me. He does not walk anywhere, he sprints. He is super alert and very rough and tumble. Lot of dog in a little package but his temperament seems very nice. I am crossing my fingers it works out. He's gonna be stellar as someone's agility dog. 

If it doesn't work out then I have some people interested. He needs a sports home for sure. He's a very desirable size for agility. Will probably run 16". Built nicely and good drive.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I'm so excited for you. He sounds like a lot of fun. Looking forward to plenty of pictures.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Ummmm Pictures? 



Hope it does work out for all of you . congratulations AND PICTURES please


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have no Internet at my new house lol. I can't post photos from my phone. 

I really hope it works out too. He's a nice dog. If it doesn't though he'll find a sports home ASAP. In good news Mia and he are calmly laying down in the same room. So yay. 

This was kind of impulsive lol. But I figured worst comes to worst and I find out he's not a good fit then he will still have a good shot at getting the kind of home he needs. 

I like him a lot though. If I didn't have Mia it would be a shoe in but Mia is the big factor.

He will be a joy to train, I can tell. But yeah mention tiny high drive dog to agility people and I already have people telling me if I don't want him they do.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

He SOUNDS like an ACD...

Especially... "I have never had a dog remotely as high energy. He is crazy active but also self entertains"

But 16 pounds is TINY TINY TINY.... Maybe his estimated age is wrong...

I can give you a very good idea if he is all ACD.....

IF you are comfortable with it. PM me and I will send you my cell number. if you can text photos, I will both give you a very good idea if he is all ACD and post them here, for you.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

A tiny 10 month old is 30 plus pounds... Most males are over 40 at that age. He is less than half that..


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Congratulations


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

He definitely acts ACD to me. He may be too much dog for Mia but we will see. Give it a bit of time. I am so hoping they work it out because golly I want to train and own a dog like this. He is incredible in his drive. 

I'll PM you. Would definitely like your opinion. I see rat terrier. A lot. He has a very narrow build and head. Also has a docked tail.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> He definitely acts ACD to me. He may be too much dog for Mia but we will see. Give it a bit of time. I am so hoping they work it out because golly I want to train and own a dog like this. He is incredible in his drive.
> 
> I'll PM you. Would definitely like your opinion. I see rat terrier. A lot. He has a very narrow build and head. Also has a docked tail.


Believe it or not... There is GOOD evidence that Ratties were used in "miniature" ACDs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I've seen quite a few tiny ACD like dogs. A couple of my friends have them. 

Stumpies wouldn't have tan right? He's tricolor. 

I texted you some pics. He doesn't sit still well. But in the span of getting pics he learned sit. Crazy how fast he picked that up!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)




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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

You know what is crazy? I just realized he weighs less than my smallest Sheltie did. But he feels much much bigger. 

Johnny what do you think the best way to approach him and Mia is? I just want coexistence and not killing each other. Right now I'm correcting both and also just keeping them apart via gates giving them treats for being near each other but being calm. They sniff nicely hrough the gates. 

He has no body awareness. Everything is full throttle and he will plow through me or the other dogs. I have never seen a dog so intent on moving at warp speed. He wants to throw himself at everything. He also has already tried to jump the fence. And almost succeeded. What did I do again? Lol.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I've seen quite a few tiny ACD like dogs. A couple of my friends have them.
> 
> Stumpies wouldn't have tan right? He's tricolor.
> 
> I texted you some pics. He doesn't sit still well. But in the span of getting pics he learned sit. Crazy how fast he picked that up!


He is not a stumpy... No tan in stumpies... And that tail looks docked to me.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

A photo of the dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Here is a picture of the dog.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Exciting!! Looking forward to hearing how everything goes with him!


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Congrats! I hope it works out!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Exciting! Hope things workout with him because he sounds just perfect for you.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Oh wow. You've got a little spit fire on your hands, huh?

Can't wait to see photos! I hope he and Mia learn to coexist peacefully. Maybe they'll end up as good playmates in the end. Merlin detested Eren at first bit they are good buds now.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

He sounds like a lot of fun! Can't wait to see the pics


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## JeJo (Jul 29, 2013)

He sounds like quite a spark! Congratulations, Laurelin! -I hope the little guy and Mia come to a peaceful agreement so that you can keep him. Please post pics when you can.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Congratulations. He is very cute!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here is his petfinder photo. 










Definitely thinking ACD x rattie. He looks more rattie in this photo than in real life. In real life he looks more ACD than rattie. The front view of his head looks rattie to me. 

He's a mess and a half. 

This dog turns off really well. He had some minor crate whining last night but once I gave him a pillow he was out. This morning he had brief wild time then settled down in a dog bed and fell asleep. 

He wrestles with me too, which I love. And he's already started tugging lightly. I think he'd fetch forever and so far will play with whatever toy I bring out. I gotta grab some discs and see what he does there. 

He marks though. Really sneakily marks. And his farts. Omg. They will kill you. Whatever food he was on (I think alpo) does not go well with him.

Also he will have a great home wherever he ends up. Agility folk are jumping up telling me they want him if I don't. Dogs his size with his drive are very desirable. 

Also in Hankscapades I realized technically Trey (and all the shelties) was bigger than him and that freaked me out a bit. hank feels like such a bigger dog. It must be personality. 

He can curl into teeny tiny balls and fit in places Summer barely can.

When he gets to wrestling on the floor he rolls around and bites his nubby tail. So weird. 

He can't have anything without first sprinting and prancing through the house with it usually he also throws it around and flails. Kind of hilarious. 

He has tried and almost succeeded in hopping the fence. It's a 6' privacy fence. Guy has springs for legs and lots of determination. 

I really hope he works out. He is going to be a challenge in a fun way and will be a joy to train.


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## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

Congrats on your new addition, can't wait to see pics. Edited to add....I see the pic now...so cute. Not sure why it didn't show up before I posted this. 


I am not familiar with cattle dog drive but I do know we were not quite prepared for the drive in our little mix (Belle) that we got last year. Neither were our two current cockers, the white one (Angel) absolutely hated Belle when we got her as a 8 week old puppy. Belle pretty much needs to run laps around our yard each day to calm her energy. Although at a year and a half now she has calmed down a LOT but still bounces off the walls. While it took Angel 3 months to accept Belle (Angels whole disposition changed dramatically, she was our little goofball and she became very sulky) the two of them are great friends now and enjoy chasing each other around the house while Maya (the black cocker) barks at them. Belle is the whole reason I got into agility cause she needs an outlet for her energy. It is great you are already in agility so your new one can get started as soon as possible. Hope it all works out for you!


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

congrats! He looks so sweet and I definitely see the RT in his face. Here's hoping everyone settles in well and we'll get to follow along with his training.


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## Godwit (Apr 7, 2014)

omg he is SO CUTE!!! I dream of a dog like that in my future


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Congrats on the new addition!

My friend breeds rat terriers....I see WAY more rat terrier in him than I see cattle dog. If it weren't for the spotted body, I would call him all rat terrier. Ratties are cool little dogs, you're going to be in for a fun ride with him. Good luck!!


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

Aww!! He really does look like ACD/Rattie. He is adorable!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I really think he may be 50/50 ACD/rattie. That photo definitely looks more rattie than he does in person. His original petfinder pic was more ACD but he's definitely daintier and slimmer. From a front view of his head I see all terrier and his eye shape screams terrier to me. But from the side he looks like an ACD/BC or something. I tried measuring him height-wise but failed (he doesn't stop moving). I'm going to guess 16-17" tall. The decker rat terriers kind of look similar. My friends in real life have gone both ways seeing more cattle dog or more rat terrier. Maybe I'll call him a cattlerat. 

I'm totally fine with that. Most my favorite dogs have been herder/terriers. He's definitely herdy though and built to move. His mannerisms are very VERY ACD . Something about the way he moves and plays. There's tons of smaller sort of heeler like dogs around here and JB said there was a person around here selling 'mini ACDs' that were part rattie. A couple of my agility friends have dogs that could be littermates- 15-20 lbs and heeler-like. Of course all rescues so who knows the breeds in them.

I'll have to get my internet set up so I can get better photos. 

This guy seems to have no calm energy. He is sacked out asleep or just vibrating with energy it seems. He's a mess but it seems to be in a good way.


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## stafinois (Jun 16, 2010)

I see ACD/Rattie. How cute!


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

Oh my goodness is he cute. Hank totally fits him too. I think once he and Mia figure each other out they'll be OK. I'm sure she's just startled by this big wild man throwing his weight around. Can't wait to hear more about him!


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Very cute!! Hope everything works out with Hank  His face from the front screams rattie to me too.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Definitely a mix, ACD/Rattie would definitely be believable. He's beautiful. I hope things work out!!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Adorable!!!

Recently, someone was selling a craigslist litter of cattle dog/jack Russell crosses that looked so much like your dog.

It took EVERYTHING in me to not go and get one. Wanted one real bad.

Sure hope it all works out for you! Looking forward to the pictures!


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> This guy seems to have no calm energy. He is sacked out asleep or just vibrating with energy it seems. He's a mess but it seems to be in a good way.


Muggsy up until age 5 was like this. He was either vibrating out of his skin or dead asleep, no in between. That dog, for all his flaws, was fantastic. You have a great 15 or so years ahead of you, good luck!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Congratulations, he's adorable! I hope he works out for you!


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Cutie pie! He sounds like he's going to keep you busy!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

checked in to see pictures  so cute... !!!!!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yep, agreed on the ACD/RT.

Also, remember that RT *do* herd! So him being super herdy there isn't surprising.

Congrats, he's a doll and I hope it works out for you guys.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

He's super cute. I really hope that everything works out with him and Mia. He sounds like a lot of fun!


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## Eeyore (Jul 16, 2014)

He sounds awesome! And looks the part, too. 

I hope him and Mia works out


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## JeJo (Jul 29, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Here is his petfinder photo.


Ah, there's the spark! What a sharp looking little guy. I like the name, Hank, too.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Congratulations! He is adorable!!!


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

-checking in for more pics-
Darn it! I can't wait until you fix your internet! 
He's too cute and needs more than one picture.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

How did I miss this? HE'S SO HANDSOME.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

thanks for posting the pictures. I love him he looks like he could stir up the dust on an agility course.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)




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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)




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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)




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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Sorry I could not get those up for you last night. I could not get them to load on the site last night.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Thanks Johnny! 

He started trying to drag off my porch patio rugs this afternoon. He's fun, just once place then another then another and full speed. Even when he decides to sleep he has to run as fast as possible and leap onto the bed and into a tight ball in one motion. His energy level is absolutely amazing. And I've been around a lot of high energy dogs... he's definitely up there. 

And he likes his teeth a lot. He snaps and clacks I think just because he can.

We've had some good interaction today with the two. Everyone seems a bit more settled. Mia is still unhappy with me but things seem to be progressing. I am still crossing my fingers it will work out with them. It is very similar to the Mia/Ada (yorkie/JRT/thing mix) dynamic and that took about a month to get everyone being happier. Hank just thinks Mia is a drag lol.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

He sounds like a really cool little dog! I hope he works out!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Merlin's breeder.... Says ACD/Rattie Mix for sure.


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

Thanks for sharing the pics, JB! I just love him  I really hope he works out!


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> This guy seems to have no calm energy. He is sacked out asleep or just vibrating with energy it seems. He's a mess but it seems to be in a good way.


hahaha Thats Jasper (and Mason) even now at 2 years old. You are going to have a fun ride with that little man.  Congratulations, he is beautiful.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

What a cutie!! He sounds like a LOT of fun! Really hoping everything works out with him!


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

I really hope she works out for you. She's seems like such a neat dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Right now we are doing some NILIF protocol for serious. We're having some resource guarding and chasing issues. 

Right now I want to give it my best shot that it will work. That said, I'm not 100% convinced it will. I hate seeing Summer and Mia so stressed out but I think no matter what dog I bring in, some of this will happen. Especially any high drive dog. Maybe a sheltie puppy was the best choice though and I should have done that. Drive for agility but in a gentler package... Hank is just so powerful for his size. There is a lot about Hank that is so new to me. Things that worked with other dogs, don't work with Hank. There is like 10 new levels of management I need to do. Just baby gate the dog? No you won't! Hank can jump over it from a standstill before you've got it put up.

It is less than 48 hours out of the shelter and he's a confused young herder boy. I am reminding myself of that. 

Last night I thought maybe some of the issue is he had been in a cement cage since Sept 8th and his energy was just bottling up. I took him to a fenced in field and let him run off leash. It was a few acres. He ran and ran and ran and ran for almost an hour straight. He is so FAST. He looks like a spotted jackrabbit running or just a cowdog bullet. It's amazing how fast he is. He sprinted for about an hour until he just flopped over with his tongue hanging out the side of his mouth. And the best thing is he connects back with me well. He'll come when called and recalls well (though he ends it with slamming all of him into your crotch, which is no good). I wouldn't trust him outside a fence but inside he is doing very good. He will chase the ball a long time. If he runs like this in agility... oh boy.... we will need lots of distance work for sure. 

I also took him for a leashed walk around the block just to see what I'm working with. He wants to circle me 24/7 and goes berserk at the sight of dogs, kids, or cars. Anything that makes a dashing movement, he wants to chase. Which brings me to the problem in the house: Mia. Mia has some behaviors that in the past were not GOOD behaviors but were more annoying than an issue. Summer is not high drive so things like that were not a problem. Hank though... if Mia screams he's over the top. Mia screams during routine things like me closing my makeup kit or me letting dogs out. I need to work from both ends. Desensitizing Mia to not screech when I do things and Hank not to want to chase and bite small screaming dogs. 

So the only real issues are chasing and resource guarding. The guarding so far seems mild. It is mostly noise and teeth clacking. And it is guarding ME and not things though I bet if they had access to each other around things then he'd probably guard those too. Most the guarding happens when I sit and they are all near me. 

On the plus side: No accidents since yesterday. He already knows sit and leave it. We are doing a lot of doggy zen and that is picking up. When I locked Mia up to work on Hank, he was calling off of her screeching in a crate. He's tugging now with vigor and is chasing rolling discs. Food drive trumps toy drive at this point. If food is present, he does not want to play. But if food is not present he will work for play or even praise. He will choose to turn off, which I like. He will just curl into a ball and sleep if not being worked with (provided the other dogs aren't doing things like walking and setting him off)

I see pretty well limitless potential in this dog. I really want it to work out, I really really do. I am feeling a bit overwhelmed right now. In a lot of ways he is more my kind of dog than any other dog I've had but he's definitely not Mia and Summer's kind of dog.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

You sound a lot like me. I'm still overwhelmed with Gypsy and it's been 2 weeks. She is very reactive on leash and chases the cat. Both her and Ryker resource guard from each other, but that is manageable. I'm still not sure if I did the right thing and keep thinking how easier it would have been to get a puppy and not have to deal with the reactivity. I can't even walk her around town. I have to drive to trails where absolutely no dogs will be. I don't think I can give her up at this point because if I can't deal with her problems then who will? We're going to be seeing a trainer next week.


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## CobbersMom (Jul 30, 2013)

Your pup is adorable!! He looks for all the world like my Merlin who was an ACD/Terrier mix -- best dog ever  But yeah, what energy and drive. Frisbee was a lifesaver for us. Something I could do in the back yard. I'm sorry to hear about the conflicts with your other dogs -- I do hope after the dust settles, it all works out for you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I've gotten some good cattle dog people suggestions. We are going to implement a 2 week shutdown. I had heard of it before but it seemed very counter-intuitive with such a drivey energetic dog. Give everyone a chance to cool down and get used to each other. 

Sadly my double baby gates are not working to keep them separated (god he can climb!) so Hank is going to have to be tethered or crated. 

I am lucky with Hank that there is no pressure to keep him. I have a home lined up just in case that it will work well for him. 

I really like this dog though. He is very neat and a good boy. I am going to give it my all to try to make it work.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

When I had a resource guarding foster, her guarding of people was the worst in the first 2 days. We got better at managing it, of course (learning curve), but she also relaxed a lot once she had settled in a bit more. 

Not that Hank will necessarily relax from the sounds of it, but... maybe he'll pick up on the idea that he doesn't have to guard stuff from your paps.

Really hope it works out for you. He sounds like an insane adventure.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

It's early yet. Dogs are weird the first few weeks to months after adoption. All kinds of behaviors pop up and then disappear. I think rescues will run through all the behaviors they can think of just to see what you'll do, and once they have that information, they're done with it. It's the only explanation I can think of.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I have nothing of value to add, but I know Hank is in capable hands with you. Sending good thoughts things work out.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

He LOOKS like an ACD/Rat Terrier cross, which is an AWESOME mix! He's going to have some serious character!


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

your descriptions of him remind of of puppy Gem and Gyp lol. for a long time they were so excitable and so rammy that something as small as bending over for any reason was obviously an invitation to skull crack you in the face lol. even now that Gem and Gyp are 3 years old they are wild beasts, I am learned to accept that training sessions are painful endeavours because if they are not rammy they are alligators and "roughing them up" style playing will result in a bloody nose on my part. despite all that though? they are so much FUN to work with lol


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

This is a known ACD/Rattie cross.....
I have met this dog, I know the sire and the dam. I know without a doubt exactly what he is...

He is GREASED lightning.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Looks very similar! Though that dog is definitely broader. My vet thinks Hank may be more like 6 months vs 10 months. Not sure. He is SUPER fast and high energy. 

DSC_1069 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

I am very excited about his potential. Also a little scared of what I signed up for. 

DSC_0924 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

DSC_1057 by summerpapillons, on Flickr


DSC_1062 by summerpapillons, on Flickr\

DSC_0951 by summerpapillons, on Flickr


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Ahhh! What a cute little bum!


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## theairedale (Jul 15, 2014)

Woohoo! So cute!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

This photo is what made me think 'What on earth have I done to myself?' lol

DSC_0929 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

And this one:

DSC_0974 by summerpapillons, on Flickr


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

He is very expressive.

DSC_0990 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

And smart.

DSC_0993 by summerpapillons, on Flickr


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

He is so adorable and looks like a total baby to me. 6 months is much more believable IMO. And would definitely explain his current body frame.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Man he's going to be a nice agility pup. I can't wait to watch him progress


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Looks very similar! Though that dog is definitely broader. My vet thinks Hank may be more like 6 months vs 10 months. Not sure. He is SUPER fast and high energy.
> 
> DSC_1069 by summerpapillons, on Flickr
> 
> ...


Yea but.... that is a 30 month old dog that is a flyball and agility competitor, been on a training program and was neutered at 24 months old. 

He is mature and very fit.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I do expect Hank to fill out some as he matures. Right now he's very... lanky. 

If he runs in agility the way he does usually... he could be great. I better get fitter or train some distance moves.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

He is SO serious sometimes!

DSC_0987 by summerpapillons, on Flickr


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

He's so adorably devilishly cute.


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

Oh man he is gorgeous!!


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## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> He is very expressive.


THAT is the Cattle Dog Stink Eye if I ever saw it.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

He is so stinking cute. I love highly expressive dogs.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

YaY !!! I came to see more pictures.. Gorgeous !!!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

what an awesome little dog. i could totally buy 6 months, his build is a lot like roxie's was at that age.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Right now we are doing some NILIF protocol for serious. We're having some resource guarding and chasing issues.
> 
> Right now I want to give it my best shot that it will work. That said, I'm not 100% convinced it will. I hate seeing Summer and Mia so stressed out but I think no matter what dog I bring in, some of this will happen. Especially any high drive dog. Maybe a sheltie puppy was the best choice though and I should have done that. Drive for agility but in a gentler package... Hank is just so powerful for his size. There is a lot about Hank that is so new to me. Things that worked with other dogs, don't work with Hank. There is like 10 new levels of management I need to do. Just baby gate the dog? No you won't! Hank can jump over it from a standstill before you've got it put up.
> 
> ...


It took a lot of training for me to desensitize Josefina to screaming objects like small dogs and the way they scream, she perks up even when she hears a small dog doing that on TV (like if we are watching DW, or one of those shows like "too cute") I don't know if she relates it with squeaky toys or not, now, when out in public, she will perk up at the sound of a screaming dog, but I can refocus her ... that is with years of training. 

Now you know what I mean when I say "some of the things that work with other dogs don't work with cattle dogs." LOL


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> It took a lot of training for me to desensitize Josefina to screaming objects like small dogs and the way they scream, she perks up even when she hears a small dog doing that on TV (like if we are watching DW, or one of those shows like "too cute") I don't know if she relates it with squeaky toys or not, now, when out in public, she will perk up at the sound of a screaming dog, but I can refocus her ... that is with years of training.
> 
> Now you know what I mean when I say "some of the things that work with other dogs don't work with cattle dogs." LOL


Yeah, because NILF and desensitization that she's doing with success is totally unlike anything she'd ever do with another dog. Yup.

...I'm getting out of this thread now, though.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, because NILF and desensitization that she's doing with success is totally unlike anything she'd ever do with another dog. Yup.
> 
> ...I'm getting out of this thread now, though.


I was talking about things like the baby gate thing she mentioned "I can see now that things that would work with other dogs don't work with hank ... he just goes right over it from a stand still etc ..." 

Geeze WHY is the fact that some dogs just need "tweaks" in training so hard to grasp???? Simply ignoring behaviors doesn't work with most cattle dogs and mixes, because they are like "...but what are you gonna DO if I keep doing said naughty thing?" 

And the "going after" Mia? it could be prey drive, or it could be him trying to "correct" her ... who knows LOL. He sounds like an awesome little dog, and if he was a pure ACD ... look out LOL, because imagine all he is doing x10


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I was talking about things like the baby gate thing she mentioned "I can see now that things that would work with other dogs don't work with hank ... he just goes right over it from a stand still etc ..."
> 
> Geeze WHY is the fact that some dogs just need "tweaks" in training so hard to grasp???? Simply ignoring behaviors doesn't work with most cattle dogs and mixes, because they are like "...but what are you gonna DO if I keep doing said naughty thing?"


Mostly because you say things like: "Now you know what I mean when I say "some of the *things that work with other dogs don't work with cattle dogs.*" LOL"

Guess what! Some of the things that DO work with other dogs DO work with cattle dogs! And I'm 100% willing to bet that a lot/all of the things Laurelin is trying DO work for some cattle dogs. I have also met huskies, BCs, GSDs, JRTs, and mixy-mixes, who acted similar to what Laurelin's describing... all of whom were conspicuously *not *ACDs.

My point: being crazy is not unique to ACDs, so you might as well say "some of the things that work for some dogs don't work for some other dogs."


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> Mostly because you say things like: "Now you know what I mean when I say "some of the *things that work with other dogs don't work with cattle dogs.*" LOL"
> 
> Guess what! Some of the things that DO work with other dogs DO work with cattle dogs! And I'm 100% willing to bet that a lot/all of the things Laurelin is trying DO work for some cattle dogs. I have also met huskies, BCs, GSDs, JRTs, and mixy-mixes, who acted similar to what Laurelin's describing... all of whom were conspicuously *not *ACDs.
> 
> My point: being crazy is not unique to ACDs, so you might as well say "some of the things that work for some dogs don't work for some other dogs."



Yeah, this. I REALLY don't want to derail Laurelin's thread, but seriously? Thud's not a thing like an ACD and baby gates have never worked for him. Nor have they ever worked for Kylie. Or Molly. Now, Molly's an ACD mix, but the rest sure aren't. That's just a 'high energy, intelligent, creative, driven' dog thing. It's just NOT A BREED TRAIT. Those kind of remarks are just demeaning, patronizing and insulting and I REALLY wish you could understand that (Not you, Gingerkid). It's also harmful for both people who have ACDs and people who don't and the dogs in question (both acds and not).

That's WHY those remarks bother me enough to call it out when I see it. Not because I'm trying to be a jerk, but it's harmful and hurtful to have floating out there.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, this. I REALLY don't want to derail Laurelin's thread, but seriously? Thud's not a thing like an ACD and baby gates have never worked for him. Nor have they ever worked for Kylie. Or Molly. Now, Molly's an ACD mix, but the rest sure aren't. That's just a 'high energy, intelligent, creative, driven' dog thing. It's just NOT A BREED TRAIT. Those kind of remarks are just demeaning, patronizing and insulting and I REALLY wish you could understand that (Not you, Gingerkid). It's also harmful for both people who have ACDs and people who don't and the dogs in question (both acds and not).
> 
> That's WHY those remarks bother me enough to call it out when I see it. Not because I'm trying to be a jerk, but it's harmful and hurtful to have floating out there.


Gotcha 

I guess I just don't see the level of insanity that is constantly ascribed to ACDs very often, even in ACDs. Maybe its because I have a biased sample and the ACDs/mixes coming through our shelter aren't truly "typical" ACDs. But for every absolutely insane ACD I've see go through the shelter, there has been at least as many totally sweet cuddle-bugs, and the vast majority that I have interacted with are somewhere in between. Kind of like labs. Or pitties. Or BCs. :wink:


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Yeah, if he is indeed part Rat Terrier, it's a breed I've owned and am very familiar with, and their intelligence and insanity is right up there with ACDs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> Gotcha
> 
> I guess I just don't see the level of insanity that is constantly ascribed to ACDs very often, even in ACDs. Maybe its because I have a biased sample and the ACDs/mixes coming through our shelter aren't truly "typical" ACDs. But for every absolutely insane ACD I've see go through the shelter, there has been at least as many totally sweet cuddle-bugs, and the vast majority that I have interacted with are somewhere in between. Kind of like labs. Or pitties. Or BCs.



Honestly, Molly is the easiest dog I have ever owned. Hands down. Yeah, she's only 4 months old and I might change my tune but she's not difficult. She just doesn't DO baby gates. She's too into throwing herself at or over everything in the world and Thud was always similar. Thud's been hard, but big surprise there. And I think most of what people consider 'hard' is pretty... individual? I mean Thud's difficult for me because he's physical and enthusiastic and large, not because he's a lunatic. And A LOT of what people do consider crazy behavior in my dogs I sort of encourage. Or outright encourage. Most of the ACDs I've dealt with have been... pretty typical herders? A little hard headed more often than some of the others, but not to any huge degree.

I just don't think setting anybody up to think ACDs need training that is unlike any other dog needs is really doing them any favors. Dogs are going to vary A LOT. Being prepared to deal with the individual is really, really what I think people need PERIOD. Awareness of objective breed tendencies is good too, but the rest of it? I honestly think can be damaging.



> Yeah, if he is indeed part Rat Terrier, it's a breed I've owned and am very familiar with, and their intelligence and insanity is right up there with ACDs.


Also this. I mean Jack's as dumb as a post, but um. What was I saying about individuals a second ago? Also speed. OMG SPEED.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CptJack said:


> I just don't think setting anybody up to think ACDs need training that is unlike any other dog needs is really doing them any favors. Dogs are going to vary A LOT. Being prepared to deal with the individual is really, really what I think people need PERIOD.


This. Dogs are individuals, and I honestly can't think of any one breed trait that is unique to any single breed. You have to learn what your individual dogs are like and tailor your methods to them. I think this is something that Laurelin is good at, as Summer and Mia are pretty different despite both being papillons.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Whoa I missed a lot. 

I don't know if I'll ever know WHAT Hank is or isn't. The shelter said he was a cattle dog but shelter guesses are just that... guesses. He was a stray so no real way of knowing. He may be a cattle dog x rat terrier (that is the most common guess), may be a big rat terrier with lots of speckles, my vet thought cattle dog x JRT, and I was recently asked if he was a feist and I could see that too. A lot of the mountain feists look a lot like him. I keep getting asked what he is and I keep replying 'he's whatever you want him to be!' lol. I think I will call him a Fun Spotty Dog now as far as breeds go. It'll be interesting to see how much he grows (or if he grows and bulks out). 

Anyways, this boy is gold no matter what. He is settling in VERY nicely. This dog I swear he has no major issues. He just is hyper, athletic, likes to chase, and is mouthy. But he's not terrible on a leash, VERY sweet, VERY smart, very devoted to me already. His sit is already better than the other dogs'. I swear he puts two and two together so fast. Summer is very in tune to me and trainable but Hank is... wow. It's amazing how solid he is in just a rep or two. It's like Mia but the smarts are being used for good and not evil (maybe that's because he's a boy? Not sure) He seems so utterly devoted to trying to figure out what I want and the rules. He is not destructive at all (he has destroyed one cardboard coat hanger). No more marking after day 1. He is SO MUCH FUN to work with. Incredible food drive and likes to play with most toys. I think there's a lot to work with. He can jump 5-6 feet very easily. He jumped OVER My shoulder out of the car and it was effortless. He is also a very serious little fella a lot of the time. He is motion oriented and is very nippy. I had him playing with a bigger dog and he gets really rough and bitey when the other dog will let him. And this guy can run and fly like crazy. 

He's handled the vet like a pro. He is confident out and about and friendly though a bit over the top but hey... he's a puppy. He kind of thinks it's ok to launch into you as fast as he possibly can. He's super flexible and bendable- it's weird. He likes to hold on to his own nub tail and sleep with his head on his butt. Seems uncomfortable to me but what do I know? He crates well. He has INCREDIBLE endurance but also is turning off really nicely. The first 48 hours I think he was way over the top because of being in a concrete run so long. He's had a full week of good outlets now and he is evening out a lot. 

His base temperament is just super duper stable. Quite like Summer but Hank has a lot more energy and physicality to throw around, which I like. He does have more edge and is pushy but Mia is starting to clearly call the shots (who is surprised here? lol) Oh and I would like to add that the bad dog of the week is MIA who decided to eat a full 6 ounce bag of junk dog treats from my countertop. She got enormously fat looking and was sick 2 days before finally getting back to normal. It was terrible and I still don't know how she did it. (Hank was out with me at the time)

I think we'll have a lot of fun.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The one thing Hank was afraid of was the car and loading up in it. And he got over that in 2 days once he realized that car rides took him fun places. He went one trip with being afraid and almost pulling out of his leash to the next one happily jumping in himself. 

He is really just amazing.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Serisly, some of these dogs look so much like him: 

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/mountainfeist.htm




























Probably more likely he's a rat terrier x something bigger though. Not sure if feists are even common here.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There would be a lot of X-over in both appearance and function since all RT are feists but not all feists are RT, if you follow. Feist is just a type, really, with some lines thrown in there sometimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_(dog)#Similar_breeds


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I see Feists here in the DFW area of TX, or at least dogs that are claimed to be Feists. Don't know if that helps you or not. Periodically I will see ads for litters of puppies and I come across dogs when out and about that the owners say are Feists. 

Hank seems like a fun dog and it sounds like he is settling in well.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh really? I know nothing about that kind of dog. He just seems bigger (thought I know deckers exist) and his coat seems thicker than any rattie I have met. Most ratties seem to have a very slick coat and his is more along the lines of a stock coat (doesn't translate into pics well). He's got little butt feathering and a bit of ruff on his neck. Think like dobe short hair versus lab short hair (sort of).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Oh really? I know nothing about that kind of dog. He just seems bigger (thought I know deckers exist) and his coat seems thicker than any rattie I have met. Most ratties seem to have a very slick coat and his is more along the lines of a stock coat (doesn't translate into pics well). He's got little butt feathering and a bit of ruff on his neck. Think like dobe short hair versus lab short hair (sort of).


Oh, no, I'm not saying he's definitely a rattie. I have no doubt he's a mix - that much ticking and the coat isn't really on, and he seems kind of stocky. Just saying that the feist is kinda like 'hound'. It's just a dog type, not really a breed, and RT are dogs within that type, and come pretty heavily FROM the type. If that makes sense? They're often crossed around indiscriminately because well. RT are feists, even if not all feists are RT.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Interesting! For some reason I thought feist was more along the lines of lurches where it meant a cross type. So like terrier mix for hunting.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> Gotcha
> 
> I guess I just don't see the level of insanity that is constantly ascribed to ACDs very often, even in ACDs. Maybe its because I have a biased sample and the ACDs/mixes coming through our shelter aren't truly "typical" ACDs. But for every absolutely insane ACD I've see go through the shelter, there has been at least as many totally sweet cuddle-bugs, and the vast majority that I have interacted with are somewhere in between. Kind of like labs. Or pitties. Or BCs. :wink:


They are not that way in shelters very often... I have pulled a BUNCH. over a hundred.... A bunch act like scared downtrodden sad puppies. They are SMART and manipulative. And a shelter is a very hard environment for them. The use their manipulation to make the best of it. Get them out of there and put them in a home for 24-48 hours and they return to normal. I have fielded more calls than I can remember, this dog is not like how he was when we picked him up...


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

He sounds like fun  And hard work 

They say it's the dogs that challenge you the most that you get the most attached to. And of course they also teach you the most.

Sounds like you're doing well with NILIF and management. If you're not already doing it, I highly recommend Crate Games and It's Yer Choice. But especially CG. I do this with all dogs that come in for boarding and training, and recommend it to all owners who own a crate, because it's a great tool for teaching self control and working around distractions. It's also great for teaching a rock solid sit with no paw movement.

Going crazy at the sight of other people and dogs etc, is largely a self control issue. Of course you will still have to work specifically on those things, reward for focusing on you, LAT, and whatnot, but if the dog already has great self control, the training will be 10 times easier.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

They ARE purpose bred, really, but there's no purposeful crossing of two breeds, if that makes sense. Like you might cross a beagle or a JRT or something in to already established feist lines if you liked the way they worked, but they just kinda... are ubiquitous squirrel/small game dogs. Some are definite, recognizable breeds or crosses, a lot aren't. I think the only two recognized by any kennel club are treeing feists and RT. The rest just kinda... are what they do. In that regard they're a lot like BCs, honestly, but with a very different purpose.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have the crate games DVD somewhere. I just moved so its in a box somewhere. 


Hanks first 48 hour was rough. But he has settled in well. He was sooo chasey and bitey and guardy at first I was worried he'd be too much for the paps. But I took him running this weeken probably 4 hours Saturday and 2 hours Sunday and he's calmed down a lot. I feel like he really needed a release after that month in a 4 x 5' kennel. 

The feist thing is interesting! Learned something new.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> They are not that way in shelters very often... I have pulled a BUNCH. over a hundred.... A bunch act like scared downtrodden sad puppies. They are SMART and manipulative. And a shelter is a very hard environment for them. The use their manipulation to make the best of it. Get them out of there and put them in a home for 24-48 hours and they return to normal. I have fielded more calls than I can remember, this dog is not like how he was when we picked him up...


We get quite a few ACDs (and mixes). Maybe not from AKC breeders, but ACDs and their mixes are pretty common as farm dogs around here. At any given time there's usually 2-3 ACDs or mixes in our shelter. But I guess you know better than I do, the kinds of dogs that are common around here....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> We get quite a few ACDs (and mixes). Maybe not from AKC breeders, but ACDs and their mixes are pretty common as farm dogs around here. At any given time there's usually 2-3 ACDs or mixes in our shelter. But I guess you know better than I do, the kinds of dogs that are common around here....


Also worth mentioning - the acds I knew were in my house to foster from between a couple of weeks and few months. Like I said, a little hardheaded, but otherwise pretty typical herders and not all that different than Aus Sheps, really. Some tendency to guard sometimes, some with dog selectivity, but nothing really off putting and most were REALLLLLY affectionate.

Who knows. Different dogs, different people, different experiences.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Also worth mentioning - the acds I knew were in my house to foster from between a couple of weeks and few months. Like I said, a little hardheaded, but otherwise pretty typical herders and not all that different than Aus Sheps, really. Some tendency to guard sometimes, some with dog selectivity, but nothing really off putting and most were REALLLLLY affectionate.
> 
> Who knows. Different dogs, different people, different experiences.


Oh, I'm not saying that the ACDs that we have are the same as the ACDs further south; I'm sure there's variation with certain lines and such being more popular in certain geographical areas. (I'm just sick of Johnny constantly replying to my posts implying that I know absolutely nothing about the dogs and shelters in my area).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> Oh, I'm not saying that the ACDs that we have are the same as the ACDs further south; I'm sure there's variation with certain lines and such being more popular in certain geographical areas. I'm just sick of Johnny constantly replying to my posts like I know absolutely nothing about dogs and shelters in my area.


I know. I'm sorry, I failed to quote the right person. That should have been me quoting Johnny.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> We get quite a few ACDs (and mixes). Maybe not from AKC breeders, but ACDs and their mixes are pretty common as farm dogs around here. At any given time there's usually 2-3 ACDs or mixes in our shelter. But I guess you know better than I do, the kinds of dogs that are common around here....


I know how ACDs act in and out of shelters...... Anyone that compares them to Labs and Pits is only seeing the shelter side of the dog.....


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I know how ACDs act in and out of shelters...... Anyone that compares them to Labs and Pits is only seeing the shelter side of the dog.....


And I quote:



> They are not that way in shelters very often...


You're obviously not in touch with the types of dogs that show up in our shelters, so why would you know more about the temperaments of the dogs in our shelters than the behaviorists that work here? (And just as a disclaimer, I am NOT claiming to be one of those behaviorists).

All I was implying is that there are some dogs in almost every high-energy breed that are complete psychos and there are some dogs that are cuddle bugs. But I suppose the ACDs that we see at the park every week who tries to crawl into my lap and just wants scratches is displaying shelter behaviors too... its definitely not possible that there are any ACDs anywhere in the world that like strangers or enjoy being cuddled, because you'd know about it, right Johnny?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> And I quote:
> 
> 
> 
> You're obviously not in touch with the types of dogs that show up in our shelters, so why would you know more about the temperaments of the dogs in our shelters than the behaviorists that work here? (And just as a disclaimer, I am NOT claiming to be one of those behaviorists).


\\


take one of those affable, Lab or Pittie like ACDs home for a week and get back to me....


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> \\
> 
> 
> take one of those affable, Lab or Pittie like ACDs home for a week and get back to me....


I never said they were lab-like or pittie-like dogs. Please don't put words into my mouth.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> \\
> 
> 
> take one of those affable, Lab or Pittie like ACDs home for a week and get back to me....


How about me taking them home for months?

I didn't compare them to labs or pits, but they're NOT that different from other herders, Johnny. I'm absolutely certain that as a breed they are identifiable in function, form and temperament and sure, they need a home that fits, but they're not... that different than any other herding breed. Are they exactly the same? No. But they're not some alien species that is a unique and special snowflake amongst dogs. I know you love the breed but there is a line between advocating and sharing knowledge and arguing with people about their personal experiences not matching up with yours. Especially on the far extreme other side of the continent? That's just not okay and not exactly strengthening your position.

and no one here has compared them to labs or pits.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> I never said they were lab-like or pittie-like dogs. Please don't put words into my mouth.


Yes! you did....


gingerkid said:


> Gotcha
> 
> . Kind of like labs. Or pitties. Or BCs. :wink:


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

So this is off topic but dang Hank is such a guy magnet!!! As a single girl why did I not get a short haired spotty dog earlier? I cannot take him anywhere without a guy coming up and telling me he is wicked cool looking. Lol


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also he is eating over 2 cups of food a day. Makes me think he must be growing still. That seems like a ton for such a small dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> NOT that different from other herders, Johnny. I'm absolutely certain that as a breed they are identifiable in function, form and temperament and sure, they need a home that fits, but they're not... that different than any other herding breed. Are they exactly the same? No.
> 
> and no one here has compared them to labs or pits.


Gingerkid did compare them to labs and pits...

And they are QUITE a bit different than most of the other herders.... Saying they are similar to BCs and most other herders... Is about like saying a GSP is like a Doberman...


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Yes! you did....


By removing part of the quote, you're taking what I said intentionally out of context, and you know it. The _breeds _have similarities in that they have a range of temperaments. Not that any individual ACD is like a lab. But you'll take whatever I say however you want to take it, and there's nothing I can do about it. And like I said, if any ACD anywhere in the world _was _cuddly or liked strangers, you'd know about it, right?

It's clear that anyone else's experiences mean nothing to you because they're... not you, I guess, and your experience is obviously the *final say* on all things ACD.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> He just is hyper, athletic, likes to chase, and is mouthy...He can jump 5-6 feet very easily... He is motion oriented and is very nippy. I had him playing with a bigger dog and he gets really rough and bitey when the other dog will let him. And this guy can run and fly like crazy.... He has INCREDIBLE endurance...


If Hank would ever like a big dog play soulmate Freya...

would be willing to fit the bill. We're just about 5 hours away so say the word...she'd even drive herself down there if she had opposable thumbs!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, this. I REALLY don't want to derail Laurelin's thread, but seriously? Thud's not a thing like an ACD and baby gates have never worked for him. Nor have they ever worked for Kylie. Or Molly. Now, Molly's an ACD mix, but the rest sure aren't. That's just a 'high energy, intelligent, creative, driven' dog thing. It's just NOT A BREED TRAIT. Those kind of remarks are just demeaning, patronizing and insulting and I REALLY wish you could understand that (Not you, Gingerkid). It's also harmful for both people who have ACDs and people who don't and the dogs in question (both acds and not).
> 
> That's WHY those remarks bother me enough to call it out when I see it. Not because I'm trying to be a jerk, but it's harmful and hurtful to have floating out there.


Agreed, my PUG, Kuma, couldn't be contained with baby gates past six months of age, because he would jump them. Heck, he would jump over the back of our couch from almost a stand still. That's just not very unique a thing.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Also he is eating over 2 cups of food a day. Makes me think he must be growing still. That seems like a ton for such a small dog.


Wow that is a lot! My friend's 90 lb dog eats around that,and Kuma only eats 2/3 of a cup a day and he's 25 lbs, lol


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> So this is off topic but dang Hank is such a guy magnet!!! As a single girl why did I not get a short haired spotty dog earlier? I cannot take him anywhere without a guy coming up and telling me he is wicked cool looking. Lol


Haha! I get tons of guys approaching me when I have Casper with me, too. Papillons are "girly" dogs to most guys, and they won't bother commenting on Crystal. I do get the occasional guy who recognizes the breed (which isn't that common here, despite a few breeders in the area) and asks me, "Is that a pa-pill-ee-on?"

I don't actually _want_ guys approaching me, but yeah. If someone does want to chat with guys, walking a cool-looking, non-"girly" dog will do the trick!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> By removing part of the quote, you're taking what I said intentionally out of context, and you know it. The _breeds _have similarities in that they have a range of temperaments. Not that any individual ACD is like a lab. But you'll take whatever I say however you want to take it, and there's nothing I can do about it. And like I said, if any ACD anywhere in the world _was _cuddly or liked strangers, you'd know about it, right?
> 
> It's clear that anyone else's experiences mean nothing to you because they're... not you, I guess, and your experience is obviously the *final say* on all things ACD.



I can post your entire comment.... Does not change the meaning....

And when did I say I was the end all in ACDs.... that does not mean your assessment is correct. Because it is not. '

You think that somehow ACDs in Alberta are different than ACDs elsewhere. I am pretty familiar with the lines up there, where they came from and what they are like. In fact... Hazel, that we brought down here specifically to breed to Merlin came out of Alberta. We did a test breeding with Merlin's sire (because ACD bitches historically have a small litter the first round) She produced a deaf puppy and a puppy that died and I had a necropsy done on.... Liver shunt. So we sent her back to the breeder. As Merlin's sire had never produced any of that. I am out about 4 grand in that deal...

Alberta is full of dogs carrying D Bar M, Reddenblu, Cudcrodh, Coomablue, etc. dogs.... I know and have personally seen a good number of dogs in those lines. I have some of those dogs in those lines.... And those dogs are not any different than the dogs down here. 

I did NOT intend to start an argument... but your assessment that ACDs in Alberta are somehow different than ACDs down here, is WAY off....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Crantastic said:


> Haha! I get tons of guys approaching me when I have Casper with me, too. Papillons are "girly" dogs to most guys, and they won't bother commenting on Crystal. I do get the occasional guy who recognizes the breed (which isn't that common here, despite a few breeders in the area) and asks me, "Is that a pa-pill-ee-on?"
> 
> I don't actually _want_ guys approaching me, but yeah. If someone does want to chat with guys, walking a cool-looking, non-"girly" dog will do the trick!


Yeah the Shelties were not 'guy dogs' either. I swear every young guy wants to meet Hank. 

It's funny because I've never personally liked spots on a dog. I've also never liked color headed whites. 

The spots are growing on me...

But I get so many comments about how he's gorgeous or adorable and I don't see it. Lol. I think he's nice looking but when I think gorgeous I think fluffy elegant dog. And hank is so not that.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

So you're thinking he's gonna work out then?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think so! I really like this dog. And Mia and Sumer are doing much better with him. I think they're realizing he is just wild and not actually out to eat them.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Yeah the Shelties were not 'guy dogs' either. I swear every young guy wants to meet Hank.
> 
> It's funny because I've never personally liked spots on a dog. I've also never liked color headed whites.
> 
> ...



He is not spotted... He is mottled....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> He is not spotted... He is mottled....


Maybe I should change my dog to 10 month old mottley dog. It fits on a few levels.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

For whatever it's worth, we do get a lot of ACDs in shelter here. Some are a bit wild (one muzzle punched me in the face this afternoon) but most aren't really out of line behaviourally from the norm. Tend to take direction well with work focus like other herders but usually somewhat more hard headed. I haven't been around as long as ginger kid but they don't seem to fail behaviour evals or be a nuisance more than any other breed. I can definitely think of more labs and mastiff types that didn't make it. Maybe that's a function of population... But it is what I've seen so far.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> So this is off topic but dang Hank is such a guy magnet!!! As a single girl why did I not get a short haired spotty dog earlier? I cannot take him anywhere without a guy coming up and telling me he is wicked cool looking. Lol


Lol this made me laugh. I'm always telling my BFF to borrow jewel. She's such a guy magnet. Guys always seem so fascinated with her different coloured eyes.

Eta. I'm glad things seem to be working out with hank. He sounds like a spunky little guy.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I can post your entire comment.... Does not change the meaning....
> 
> And when did I say I was the end all in ACDs.... that does not mean your assessment is correct. Because it is not. '
> 
> ...


All great breeders


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I think so! I really like this dog. And Mia and Sumer are doing much better with him. I think they're realizing he is just wild and not actually out to eat them.


That's great news!


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Little late to this thread, but congrats! He's certainly a very unique looking pup! Look forward to watching him grow


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Maybe he just needed time to settle in, I know it took buddy a year to settle in.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I can post your entire comment.... Does not change the meaning....
> 
> And when did I say I was the end all in ACDs.... that does not mean your assessment is correct. Because it is not. '
> 
> ...


Anecdotal for certain but... I have met some seriously friendly/affectionate pure bred/working ACD's. I've read a great deal about your views on ACD's... you are passionate although bordering over zealous. 
They are not too much different from other herding breeds that I've noticed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> Anecdotal for certain but... I have met some seriously friendly/affectionate pure bred/working ACD's. I've read a great deal about your views on ACD's... you are passionate although bordering over zealous.
> They are not too much different from other herding breeds that I've noticed.


ACDs SHOULD be extremely affectionate.. With the owners and folks they know well. Strangers.... Not so much... 

An ACD that is sweet and affectionate with strangers goes DIRECTLY against the standard.... Sweet and affectionate with strangers they are NOT supposed to be.. Aloof and suspicious is the standard..... 

Straight from the AKC......

The Cattle Dog's loyalty and protective instincts make it a self-appointed guardian to the stockman, his herd and his property. Whilst naturally suspicious of strangers, must be amenable to handling, particularly in the show ring. Any feature of temperament or structure foreign to a working dog must be regarded as a serious fault.

the purpose ACDs were bred for is extremely different... than say BCs.... And BCs were bred for different reasons than Aussies, That were bred for different Reasons than Collies... That were bred for different reasons than Shelties, etc etc etc.....

To say any breed is like other herding dogs is ludicrous.....

Temperament and personality wise, they are night and day different than MOST of the herding breeds. 

The exception Would be maybe the Belgians, Some of the working line GSDs and Beaucerons...


Herding style


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Maybe I should change my dog to 10 month old mottley dog. It fits on a few levels.


Ma'ii, who is also mottled, has the nickname "mottley crew"


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> ACDs SHOULD be extremely affectionate.. With the owners and folks they know well. Strangers.... Not so much...
> 
> An ACD that is sweet and affectionate with strangers goes DIRECTLY against the standard.... Sweet and affectionate with strangers they are NOT supposed to be.. Aloof and suspicious is the standard.....
> 
> ...


These WERE strangers. I've seen numerous ACD's like this (with strangers) although not all. 

Why are you arguing with anecdotal experience? 

It doesn't affect me at all as the breed is not at all my cup of tea, either aesthetically or in temperament.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> These WERE strangers. I've seen numerous ACD's like this (with strangers) although not all.
> 
> Why are you arguing with anecdotal experience?
> 
> It doesn't affect me at all as the breed is not at all my cup of tea, either aesthetically or in temperament.


I am not arguing.... I am explaining what an ACD should be.... If you are meeting ACDs that are friendly and affectionate to strangers... They are not within the standard...


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am not arguing.... I am explaining what an ACD should be.... If you are meeting ACDs that are friendly and affectionate to strangers... They are not within the standard...


Then they must be impostors. Possible reptilians?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> Then they must be impostors. Possible reptilians?


Or more likely.... Poorly bred....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There are a whole lot of dogs out there that fall outside the standard, Johnny, and even without accounting for that standards are open to interpretation of the people doing the breeding. We see it all the time in every breed out there, and even in some things not a bit related to dogs or dog breeding. Add in the human element of raising and socializing and training a dog and not every ACD out there is going to be Merlin. 

Those may be the ACDs you like most and what you see the breed as and strive for in your breeding, but that doesn't mean that's what every person out there is producing or wants to produce. However you feel about that, that is fact.

That means there's a whole lot of individual dogs out there that are ACDs that are, frankly, radically different than your experiences. A WHOLE lot. And there are a whole lot of people out there who have, own, experience, and like those dogs whether they're radically outside the standard, to the standard as seen by someone else (at least in degree), or something else entirely. Whatever you think of those dogs and their conformation to standards, they're out there for other people to meet, greet, buy, breed, show, adopt, or whatever else. 

You can dislike that kind of ACD all you want, but acting like they don't exist is pretty silly.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> There are a whole lot of dogs out there that fall outside the standard, Johnny, and even without accounting for that standards are open to interpretation of the people doing the breeding. We see it all the time in every breed out there, and even in some things not a bit related to dogs or dog breeding. Add in the human element of raising and socializing and training a dog and not every ACD out there is going to be Merlin.
> 
> Those may be the ACDs you like most and what you see the breed as and strive for in your breeding, but that doesn't mean that's what every person out there is producing or wants to produce. However you feel about that, that is fact.
> 
> ...


No one said, Merlin was the ideal ACD.... I certainly did not....

I also never said, every ACD meets the standard....



But people that encounter a few in rescue situations are meet a few here and there and make assessments on the breed is ridiculous


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

CptJack said:


> There are a whole lot of dogs out there that fall outside the standard, Johnny, and even without accounting for that standards are open to interpretation of the people doing the breeding. We see it all the time in every breed out there, and even in some things not a bit related to dogs or dog breeding. Add in the human element of raising and socializing and training a dog and not every ACD out there is going to be Merlin.
> 
> Those may be the ACDs you like most and what you see the breed as and strive for in your breeding, but that doesn't mean that's what every person out there is producing or wants to produce. However you feel about that, that is fact.
> 
> ...



This. No one is arguing what the standard says about the breed. They are just saying that there are dogs that are different, just like in every other breed.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

lil_fuzzy said:


> This. No one is arguing what the standard says about the breed. They are just saying that there are dogs that are different, just like in every other breed.


Actually that is not what they are saying....


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Pun intended, but sheesh, talk about being dogmatic.


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## LOSt (Aug 7, 2010)

oh my god he is gorgeous!!! I want him! But I don't think I could handle him/ his energy level from what you're describing. 

His body shape looks a lot Roxy  (not the best pic and shes fat, but the best i could find.. her nose is longer, but those ears! (his, she has yoda satellite ears..).. i might have stalked your pics on flickr...

Roxy was actually listed as a mountain feist on the shelters papers, Wisdom DNA said shes a rattie/parson russel/Kelpie mix. (those common where you are?)

Im glad things are working out with him and Summer and Mia! (for pure selfish reasons, I want to see more pics of him and I love the pics you post )


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

LOSt said:


> oh my god he is gorgeous!!! I want him! But I don't think I could handle him/ his energy level from what you're describing.
> 
> His body shape looks a lot Roxy  (not the best pic and shes fat, but the best i could find.. her nose is longer, but those ears! (his, she has yoda satellite ears..).. i might have stalked your pics on flickr...
> 
> ...


She is VERY pretty....

Mountain Feist or more commonly Treeing Feist are the same breed as Rat Terriers.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Maybe I am coming across too testy.....

I am NOT saying there are no affable, super sweet to everyone ACDs.... There are... but they are the exception rather than the rule....

And when the ACD temperament goes off.... It is much more common to go off in the direction of a flighty nerve bag rather than go off towards affable. 

But when folks use phrases like they are like Labs and Pitties (Labs and pits are not alike to start with) and.... they are not really any different than other herding breeds. Etc.....

they either do not know what they are seeing. Or meet a couple of dogs and then decide it is okay to paint with a broad brush. 


All breeds are unique... the only common ground in herding dogs is they all move stock in some way... Otherwise they are extremely diverse... 

And while there are variations in both type and temperament in any breed, there are also common denominators. And trends... The trend in MOST high drive stoic aloof breeds is when the temperament goes off, it goes to major nerve bag..... Affable is an exception.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> There are a whole lot of dogs out there that fall outside the standard, Johnny, and even without accounting for that standards are open to interpretation of the people doing the breeding. We see it all the time in every breed out there, and even in some things not a bit related to dogs or dog breeding. Add in the human element of raising and socializing and training a dog and not every ACD out there is going to be Merlin.
> 
> Those may be the ACDs you like most and what you see the breed as and strive for in your breeding, but that doesn't mean that's what every person out there is producing or wants to produce. However you feel about that, that is fact.
> 
> ...


They may not be, but they should. How Johnny explains the ACD is how the breed standard says they should be, and thus is how breeders SHOULD be breeding them. To breed anything else is to breed out of standard.

Josefina doesn't act like an ACD, she is soft, biddable, velcro, NO herding instinct at ALL, none. But she is a rescue, I didn't "pay" for elder per say and I hate to say this, but if I had gotten her from a breeder to be a working dog and expected X and Y out of her and got what I have now she would be on her way back.

But since I HAD no expectations, everything was cool.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Or more likely.... Poorly bred....


Some were very well bred, others... I'm unsure of. 

Sorry to exacerbate an already horribly derailed thread, OP. Your dog is absolutely adorable and I bet he'll be an awesome agility dog! Have fun!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> Some were very well bred, others... I'm unsure of.
> 
> Sorry to exacerbate an already horribly derailed thread, OP. Your dog is absolutely adorable and I bet he'll be an awesome agility dog! Have fun!



And what experience with the breed do you have to know poorly bred from well bred? 

I can tell you without a doubt... If they were friendly and sweet with strangers... Regardless of how they were presented to you, they were not well bred.... Because it runs DIRECTLY against the standard.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well ran into two ACD friends today. One asked if hank was a rat terrier and the other asked if he was a cattle dog puppy. I swear it is 50/50 with dog people. Non dog people keep asking me if he's a Dalmatian. 

He's having some crazy zoomies right now. It's hilarious. He's been on rest the last two days after a slight limp in his front right. At least he self entertains... Hes starting to get a little TOO curious though.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And what experience with the breed do you have to know poorly bred from well bred?
> 
> I can tell you without a doubt... If they were friendly and sweet with strangers... Regardless of how they were presented to you, they were not well bred.... Because it runs DIRECTLY against the standard.


 I'm pretty certain that I ended the conversation I was having with you about ACD's.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> I'm pretty certain that I ended the conversation I was having with you about ACD's.


Maybe you think you did.... but that has not bearing on me.....

You already said , the breed was not your thing.... So I am curious how you think you know what a well bred cattle dog is?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes I love people who comment like they know something about whatever it may be (in this case ... ACD
Ds) but start the post with "the breed isn't my thing BUT...". It would be like me trying to tell Luke Skywalker about the Force.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

If you insist.
I do not prefer cults, it doesn't mean I didn't exist in one for the first 13 years of my life. I don't like them, but I know a helluva lot about them. 

How do you suppose I came to the judgement of not preferring ACD's? I spent time with them and decided they weren't my personal preference. They are also VERY common where I live. As in- top three breed/breed mix in the area. 

I am no expert on the breed (anecdote was a word I believe I used), but I did spend some time with a few quality dogs. I also spent time with many mixes (or poorly bred dogs, depending on your personal perspective). 

I don't care to delve much further on this topic, honestly. Believe what you want to... it's apparent by your post history [Johnny Bandit] that you have it all figured out anyway.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> I'm pretty certain that I ended the conversation I was having with you about ACD's.



I think you should name some lines..... Of course I know very little about the breed..... Which is why the National Breed Club asked me to do the meet the breed booth at the AKC national championship two years in a row. I would have done it a third year had it not been for my surgery and my wife's surgery....


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes I love people who comment like they know something about whatever it may be (in this case ... ACD
> Ds) but start the post with "the breed isn't my thing BUT...". It would be like me trying to tell Luke Skywalker about the Force.


 I love passive aggression. It's adorable. 
If you would like to address my post, please address me specifically. Thank you.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I think you should name some lines..... Of course I know very little about the breed..... Which is why the National Breed Club asked me to do the meet the breed booth at the AKC national championship two years in a row. I would have done it a third year had it not been for my surgery and my wife's surgery....


Then you know it all and have nothing to learn. 
I digress.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> If you insist.
> I do not prefer cults, it doesn't mean I didn't exist in one for the first 13 years of my life. I don't like them, but I know a helluva lot about them.
> 
> How do you suppose I came to the judgement of not preferring ACD's? I spent time with them and decided they weren't my personal preference. They are also VERY common where I live. As in- top three breed/breed mix in the area.
> ...


what do cults have to do with anything.... 

I have figured out nothing.... But I do know a thing or two about ACDs..... You are free to think what you wish.... but your assessments on the breed are way off....



ragamuffin said:


> Then you know it all and have nothing to learn.
> I digress.


Far from it.... But that does not mean you know what you are talking about or know the breed..... Because it is obvious you do not....


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

ragamuffin said:


> If you insist.
> I do not prefer cults, it doesn't mean I didn't exist in one for the first 13 years of my life. I don't like them, but I know a helluva lot about them.
> 
> How do you suppose I came to the judgement of not preferring ACD's? I spent time with them and decided they weren't my personal preference. They are also VERY common where I live. As in- top three breed/breed mix in the area.
> ...


Bolded for clarity.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have FAR more to learn about the breed than I know.... But your assessments are... Well.... they are off.... You say it is not your breed, but you want to make assessments on it..... Interesting.....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> Bolded for clarity.




Again.... Has ZERO bearing on me........ I can bold it if you like....


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> what do cults have to do with anything....
> 
> *I should have quoted OwnedbyACD's as that is who that comment was directed at.*
> 
> ...


In bold ^^^


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have FAR more to learn about the breed than I know.... But your assessments are... Well.... they are off.... You say it is not your breed, but you want to make assessments on it..... Interesting.....


I do not need to spend years with a breed or research extensively to know if I prefer it or not.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

[QUOT Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyBandit View Post
what do cults have to do with anything....

I should have quoted OwnedbyACD's as that is who that comment was directed at.

I have figured out nothing.... But I do know a thing or two about ACDs..... You are free to think what you wish.... but your assessments on the breed are way off....

I never claimed to be an ACD expert. I only claimed to have seen quality ACD's from good stock that were generally stranger friendly. You put words in my mouth.




Far from it.... But that does not mean you know what you are talking about or know the breed..... Because it is obvious you do not...

And that is just fine by me....
In bold ^^^ [/QUOTE]

Thing is... You have little idea of what a quality ACD is... If you did... You would know being friendly to strangers have nothing to do with it......


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> I do not need to spend years with a breed or research extensively to know if I don't prefer it.


Then why do you keep trying to argue that your are right about a breed you admit you know little about?


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Then why do you keep trying to argue that your are right about a breed you admit you know little about?


 When did I say that I was right? I stated that I knew a few quality animals that were stranger friendly. That is all I've said.

Yes. They were quality. That is about all I wish to elaborate.
Please insert "nuh uh" here ---->> _______


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> When did I say that I was right? I stated that I knew a few quality animals that were stranger friendly. That is all I've said.


And someone who have been intimate with the breed for 20 years. Is known in the breed on an international level, has explained to you.... If they are friendly and affectionate to strangers they are not quality bred. ACDs are, were and have always been more than herding dogs. They were and are relished because they will defend stock and especially their owners at all costs. They are not aggressive to strangers without reason, but friendly.... No.... They are affectionate and devoted to one or two people and most do not ever allow more than five or six in their circle of "friends" 

Deviation from that is NOT well bred and NOT quality..... It takes away a HUGE part of what the breed is and supposed to be.... 

Still.... You wish to argue.....


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And someone who have been intimate with the breed for 20 years. Is known in the breed on an international level, has explained to you.... If they are friendly and affectionate to strangers they are not quality bred. ACDs are, were and have always been more than herding dogs. They were and are relished because they will defend stock and especially their owners at all costs. They are not aggressive to strangers without reason, but friendly.... No.... They are affectionate and devoted to one or two people and most do not ever allow more than five or six in their circle of "friends"
> 
> Deviation from that is NOT well bred and NOT quality..... It takes away a HUGE part of what the breed is and supposed to be....
> 
> Still.... You wish to argue.....


 I haven't argued once. You are arguing my anecdotes which doesn't make any sense. 
You are stating that no quality ACD is stranger friendly. That is debatable... if I cared to debate. Which I don't.

----->> nuh uh


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

PLEASE start a 'let's argue about ACDs' thread and keep this for talking about Hank. Good grief. I mainly lurk, but I want to hear about her dog and not watch a tennis match.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Oh. You love Australian Cattle Dogs? Name five of their songs. 

I think it's silly to say ALL ACDs with improper temperament aren't well bred. Even in well bred litters, not all puppies will meet the standard conformationally or in personality. Because they aren't robots.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

Galathiel said:


> PLEASE start a 'let's argue about ACDs' thread and keep this for talking about Hank. Good grief. I mainly lurk, but I want to hear about her dog and not watch a tennis match.


I must say (in my defense) that I attempted to disengage several times...

If the OP is offended, I apologize.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes I love people who comment like they know something about whatever it may be (in this case ... ACD
> Ds) but start the post with "the breed isn't my thing BUT...". It would be like me trying to tell Luke Skywalker about the Force.


I am quoting myself to clarify that this was a general comment ... not meant to be directed at anyone in particular, sorry for the confusion, I am on my phone most of the time and I get lazy LOL.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

So anyway... I love the new photo's of hank!! So glad things are working out!!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Lol thanks! He's a good guy. He's been kind of laid up because of a limp in his front right on monday and is about to drive me a bit bonkers. I think we're going to try some light exercise tonight.

He's also deciding to start shredding and pulling out carpet recently. I think I spoke too soon about him not being destructive. 

No one can decide on his breed or his age other than he is less than a year for sure based on teeth.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

He is so cute and sounds like so much fun!! Mia is a ACD/lab but is all ACD height/temperament wise. She did not get destructive until a year old. I had to get creative with different games, had to learn how to teach different tricks(she knows a ton,lol). I know he is currently to young but he favorite thing to do is run beside my bike!! Also something that would tire her down quickly is taking her to the lake and letting her run in the sand and swim! 


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

momtolabs said:


> He is so cute and sounds like so much fun!! Mia is a ACD/lab but is all ACD height/temperament wise. She did not get destructive until a year old. I had to get creative with different games, had to learn how to teach different tricks(she knows a ton,lol). I know he is currently to young but he favorite thing to do is run beside my bike!! Also something that would tire her down quickly is taking her to the lake and letting her run in the sand and swim!
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Yeah what's up with that? Josefina wasn't a bad puppy, but she got bad about a year or so then about 2 or 3 yrs of age she calmed down again.

If it was my choice I would elect to having a bad puppy stage and just get it over with lol


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

It must be adolescence. Remus was good until he hit one and then he was a monster. He is just now getting reasonable again but he is a different dog now that he is mature, aloof, reactive (at the very least leash reactive but there are dogs he just plain doesn't like as well as men in hats/hoods, sometimes just men in general ect), sometimes gaurdy particularly when the kids are around. That stage between 12months and about 18months was rough though, it was like he forgot everything he knew and I wondered if we would get through it. He's a good bit better now. Plus he is old enough to run and started disc work which helps I think. Training isn't so great with him, no food drive, only minimal toy drive, and he only works on his terms (usually to show up whichever of the other dogs I'm training at that moment). He is a jerk face but he is my jerk face so what am I gonna dog. LOL


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yeah what's up with that? Josefina wasn't a bad puppy, but she got bad about a year or so then about 2 or 3 yrs of age she calmed down again.
> 
> If it was my choice I would elect to having a bad puppy stage and just get it over with lol


I agree!! Puppy destructiveness is so much better! At least they can't reach things you put up on counters 


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

momtolabs said:


> I agree!! Puppy destructiveness is so much better! At least they can't reach things you put up on counters
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Lol luckily they didn't have access to anything on counters, they are outside when we are home and when we are not, they are in their room in crates (until they can prove they are ready.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

ragamuffin said:


> When did I say that I was right? I stated that I knew a few quality animals that were stranger friendly. That is all I've said.
> 
> Yes. They were quality. That is about all I wish to elaborate.
> Please insert "nuh uh" here ---->> _______


Stranger friendly or stranger tolerant? My ACD will tolerate people approaching and petting him so long as I'm with him, but he really doesn't give a rat's ass about people beyond his family and has no shame in blowing off people when he's decided he's had enough of them (will stand up abruptly and walk away, sometimes pretending he's interested in something else, other times making it very obvious he's flipping them the bird). And he's a "poorly bred" ACD. Most heelers I've met are like this with strangers in varying different degrees depending on the dog, but they all share that common personality trait. JB is right. As a general rule, ACDs are suspicious and aloof of strangers by nature.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

RCloud said:


> Stranger friendly or stranger tolerant? My ACD will tolerate people approaching and petting him so long as I'm with him, but he really doesn't give a rat's ass about people beyond his family and has no shame in blowing off people when he's decided he's had enough of them (will stand up abruptly and walk away, sometimes pretending he's interested in something else, other times making it very obvious he's flipping them the bird). And he's a "poorly bred" ACD. Most heelers I've met are like this with strangers in varying different degrees depending on the dog, but they all share that common personality trait. JB is right. As a general rule, ACDs are suspicious and aloof of strangers by nature.


 Stranger friendly. As in, jump in your lap.
I'm not saying all, or even most, ACD's are like that. I'm saying I've met a few that are. Some very well bred, and some mixes/byb pups.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ragamuffin said:


> Stranger friendly. As in, jump in your lap.
> I'm not saying all, or even most, ACD's are like that. I'm saying I've met a few that are. Some very well bred, and some mixes/byb pups.


A few doesn't mean all, Buddy is like that but he isn't a standard dog, he is a rescue. Josefina is ... I guess I would say she is cordial to people, but she never is shamelessly friendly, or as I like to call a "stranger whore" lol. She will never engage a stranger but sill be polite if one engages her. But that being said ... she is not a standard ACD, and I am not 3 en sure if she is pure bred lol.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> A few doesn't mean all, Buddy is like that but he isn't a standard dog, he is a rescue. Josefina is ... I guess I would say she is cordial to people, but she never is shamelessly friendly, or as I like to call a "stranger whore" lol. She will never engage a stranger but sill be polite if one engages her. But that being said ... she is not a standard ACD, and I am not 3 en sure if she is pure bred lol.


I don't think you read what I typed...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ragamuffin said:


> Stranger friendly. As in, jump in your lap.
> I'm not saying all, or even most, ACD's are like that. I'm saying I've met a few that are. Some very well bred, and some mixes/byb pups.


Not typical of the breed.... And directly against standard..... 


In theory they may have been well bred. But if they are jump in a strangers lap friendly, no breeder that follows either the working or conformation standard would be breeding them. 

And extremely important part of the breed is that they serve as a guard in cow camp and against rustlers.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ragamuffin said:


> I don't think you read what I typed...


I did, I am just saying meeting a few of a breed doesn't make you experienced enough to comment on what if acceptable to the breed standard and what is not. Aloofness towards strangers is a breed trait, it is in the standard. 

And that's all I will say about that because I think I derailed poor Laurelin's thread enough as it is ... which was not my intention even though I think it was my post about the baby gate a few pages back that started this whole mess and I'm sorry for that.

Laurelin, little Hank is awesome and when he starts agility I want to see pics!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

WHO CARES.

AKK are suspicious of strangers, too, but I've met a couple of (well-bred) ones who love people. I just chalked it up to them being individuals/weirdos.

I like all of you guys, but I'm getting tired of hearing about how ACDs are unlike any other dog. I came here for pics and stories about Laurelin's new pup, not an endless debate about dogs that we can't judge because we have never met or even seen photos of them.


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## ragamuffin (Sep 8, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I did, I am just saying meeting a few of a breed doesn't make you experienced enough to comment on what if acceptable to the breed standard and what is not. Aloofness towards strangers is a breed trait, it is in the standard.
> 
> And that's all I will say about that because I think I derailed poor Laurelin's thread enough as it is ... which was not my intention even though I think it was my post about the baby gate a few pages back that started this whole mess and I'm sorry for that.
> 
> Laurelin, little Hank is awesome and when he starts agility I want to see pics!


I have NEVER ONCE claimed to be "experienced enough". I have also not commented on what is acceptable to breed standard in ACD's. I spoke of my personal experience with ACD's. Yeesh!
I'm done with this thread now because I'm having words put in my mouth.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> WHO CARES.
> 
> AKK are suspicious of strangers, too, but I've met a couple of (well-bred) ones who love people. I just chalked it up to them being individuals/weirdos.
> 
> I like all of you guys, but I'm getting tired of hearing about how ACDs are unlike any other dog. I came here for pics and stories about Laurelin's new pup, not an endless debate about dogs that we can't judge because we have never met or even seen photos of them.


I don't judge AKK's or Papillons (using your dogs as an example, Crantastic) because I have never met any. I made the decision to get a MAS because of the ACDs tendencies to be hard to handle for the ... lesser person and there are some times where the dog will have to stay at my parents ranch for whatever reason. It's the same reason I didn't get a WLGSD or a malinois, I COULD handle any one or those, but I also have to take into consideration the people around me. 

I also did research for over a year, I saw a variety of dogs and found a breeder who bred the type of dogs that I was looking for.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> WHO CARES.
> 
> AKK are suspicious of strangers, too, but I've met a couple of (well-bred) ones who love people. I just chalked it up to them being individuals/weirdos.
> 
> I like all of you guys, but I'm getting tired of hearing about how ACDs are unlike any other dog. I came here for pics and stories about Laurelin's new pup, not an endless debate about dogs that we can't judge because we have never met or even seen photos of them.


ACDs are not unlike any other dog.... Persay.... But while most breeds have been established for many hundreds of years....... Or thousands of years. Even if only in type. But there is no other established breed other than the Canaan dog that has intermingled with a wild canine species, within at least several hundred years, and in most cases many hundreds of years....

So in a way.... The breed is VERY unique...


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> ACDs tendencies to be hard to handle for the ... lesser person .


 Do you have any idea how rude that is?

This is really what gets under my skin about the ACD fanboy ism that pops up around here so often. Sure we can say ACDs tend to hard headedness or stranger suspicion. Statements like those can be debated on their merits and are a legitimate (if awfully repetitive) avenue of conversation. Those aren't the issue. It's how they reveal the attitude above that causes so much friction in the forum. "Lesser people". You're not making an objective judgment about the dog. You're using the dog as a pretence to make a value judgment about the *people*. And it's rude as all hell. 

Hopefully this is just an issue of poor phrasing.

Edit: does the ACD have breed history with wild dogs? Which type? Also, aren't there several newer breeds with wild heritage? Tamaskan, sarloos etc.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> ACDs are not unlike any other dog.... Persay.... But while most breeds have been established for many hundreds of years....... Or thousands of years. Even if only in type. But there is no other established breed other than the Canaan dog that has intermingled with a wild canine species, within at least several hundred years, and in most cases many hundreds of years....
> 
> So in a way.... The breed is VERY unique...



How are we qualifying "established" here? Sasrloos Wolfhound and Czechoslovakian Wolfdog are both breeds I can think of off the top of my head that are not just "mingled" with wild canine species but established from them. Arguably many northern breeds or types are mingled with wild dogs from time to time. I also believe the Kelpie is said to have Dingo in some lines. Personally I own a Carolina Dog, they are now recognized by the UKC and the ARBA but are still "wild" in their own right.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Remaru said:


> How are we qualifying "established" here? Sasrloos Wolfhound and Czechoslovakian Wolfdog are both breeds I can think of off the top of my head that are not just "mingled" with wild canine species but established from them. Arguably many northern breeds or types are mingled with wild dogs from time to time. I also believe the Kelpie is said to have Dingo in some lines. Personally I own a Carolina Dog, they are now recognized by the UKC and the ARBA but are still "wild" in their own right.



It is arguable that Sasrloos Wolfhound is a breed and the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is very specialized. The Carolina dog is phariah dog. It occurs in a domesticated state. but is a feral canine.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sorry but can we not hijack laur's thread and not have a completely pointless argument on every thread? it's starting to stress me out and it's really freaking inconsiderate to laur


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It is arguable that Sasrloos Wolfhound is a breed


The Saarloos wolfdog IS a breed. It is not arguable. 

But I agree with Kayota. I opened this thread again expecting to find more pages about Hank, not this...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Man. Hank's a controversial guy.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Man. Hank's a controversial guy.


You sure have a good attitude about all this craziness on your thread, Laur. Ha.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Ha, I've been sooo busy since bringing Hank home. It was probably bad timing but oh well. I moved 2 weekends ago and this house is still a mess!

He's settling in good though.

ep3 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

Young whippersnapper and the old dog.

leep2 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

Attempting snuggles can be quite perilous though

bite by summerpapillons, on Flickr

bite2 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

He also loves the yard.

laydown by summerpapillons, on Flickr


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Aw Hank... I swear he and my Merlin have literally the same face and ears.

ETA: ACDs are a "newer" breed seeing as they basically turned up around the turn of the century in Australia after crossing DinogoXcollie-type dogs with Dalmatians and Kelpies in the mid and late 1800's. Their breed history seems to be pretty typical though? It is said that "resemblance to the Dingo is evident, except for the color of the blues and the speckle in the reds" but it does not suggest that ACDs have any very recent Dingo or other wild dog blood.

Source: Australian Cattle Dog Club of America Breed History


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am SO glad that things are still working out! What a wonderful dog! You are going to have a blast.

I love the pictures! You have wicked talent!

I am so kicking myself for not getting in my car and getting the puppy that looked just like Hank, whatever breed he might be!

Congratulations!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think I need more rat terrier pictures posted just to be sure.  

He is a cool cool dog. A big change of pace from my shelties and papillons. I almost went back to another sheltie but I am glad I didn't. I needed to experience something different. He is much harder in temperament and much more physical. I like it a lot- especially that I can ramp him up into play and work by literally smacking him around. If you did that with my paps or shelties they'd be very offended. lol 

He has decided the washing machine is a bit suspect recently but mostly he's just curious and seems to enjoy watching it spin the clothes (it's a front load).


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> He is much harder in temperament and much more physical. I like it a lot- especially that I can ramp him up into play and work by literally smacking him around. If you did that with my paps or shelties they'd be very offended. lol


Isn't a rough and tumble dog fun?!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Although I did just post this to look out my back door (we've been leaving it open because it's so nice out) and Hank has de-potted one of my plants and also dug a trench along the patio and gotten the green outdoor rug and pulled it over to the side. He has this love for being totally filthy too.

I guess that's the downside of fun dogs, they're usually fun whether you want them to be or not.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

SDRRanger said:


> Isn't a rough and tumble dog fun?!


Haha, agreed! I'd have an adjustment with a soft dog and NOT trying to play rough with them.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Josefina although small is a rough and tumble dog, she doesn't get "offended" or intimidated by rough play, like if I smack her in the face with a toy or something or even accidently step on her or bump her or even drop something on her, she doesn't care. the other three dogs OTOH, get mortally offended and leave to sulk somewhere :/

there would be no adjustment, I don't think I could live with an easily offended dog LOL, in fact I try to raise them so they don't take my clumsiness personally, because lets face it, I am going to: drop things, have outbursts, trip, get frustrated, lose my temper, have arguments with people etc ...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Just posting this for everyone's sake: 

I'm posting this as proof....

asleep2 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

All 3 coexisting!!!!

Also, I got rid of that ugly teal nylon collar they had him in at the shelter. I cannot WAIT to get him a fancy leather collar (or 10) but for now I got a cheap leather collar from Petco. It actually isn't too bad looking. I am probably way more excited by potentially being able to buy nice collars that you can actually see than I should be. 

asleep1 by summerpapillons, on Flickr

I do like the rough and tumble a lot. I also enjoy softer, more space aware dogs too. Hank will slam into things and people and dogs a lot. I don't know if it just doesn't occur to him that he can even avoid doing so, or if he's just all about the most direct path to places or what. It's amusing but Summer doesn't appreciate it much.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Izze used to do that too, Josefina is a bit more polite LOL Buddy will slam into other dogs when he is playing. They know they can go around, they just dont care LOL


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I am so glad things are working out for you and your guys. Love all the pictures. It is like looking at a painting one way and seeing something and looking another way and seeing something else. I can see the ACD in him but than you post a different picture and I go oh look you can see the RT in him. A dog like him needs an owner like you. An owner who can laugh and go with his flo and just enjoy. Here is to more enjoyment of your new dog. A toast to you.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> I am so glad things are working out for you and your guys. Love all the pictures. It is like looking at a painting one way and seeing something and looking another way and seeing something else. I can see the ACD in him but than you post a different picture and I go oh look you can see the RT in him. A dog like him needs an owner like you. An owner who can laugh and go with his flo and just enjoy. Here is to more enjoyment of your new dog. A toast to you.


Yeah! I am glaad I am not the only one who sees different breeds based on what angle hes at LOL


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I think I need more rat terrier pictures posted just to be sure.
> 
> He is a cool cool dog. A big change of pace from my shelties and papillons. I almost went back to another sheltie but I am glad I didn't. I needed to experience something different. He is much harder in temperament and much more physical. I like it a lot- especially that I can ramp him up into play and work by literally smacking him around. If you did that with my paps or shelties they'd be very offended. lol
> 
> He has decided the washing machine is a bit suspect recently but mostly he's just curious and seems to enjoy watching it spin the clothes (it's a front load).


How many pictures you want? 
I have access to hundreds.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

All of them!


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

There is a litter of ACD x Rat terrier puppies listed on local CL, they made me think of this thread. It is sort of hard to tell since the puppies are only in the 8week range but they did look quite similar. 

I am glad that things are working out. I do love a dog I can rough house with, at least a little bit. Remus loves rough play, he has a great play drive but I have to watch he doesn't get too ramped up or he will nip. Hobgoblin gets offended by rough play and so does Freyja.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I did a Google image search for cattle dog, RT mixes and most of them look like Hank! So if I had to guess I would say that's what he is.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Beautiful dog you have there ! i am looking forward to tons of pictures


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

so here's another update on the Hank man. 5 months later and I'm enjoying him more than ever!







Here's my 'blooper reel' lmao.






(Thought I'd post here since not everyone looks at the agility thread)

alotlike by summerpapillons, on Flickr

jump hank by summerpapillons, on Flickr


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Although I did just post this to look out my back door (we've been leaving it open because it's so nice out) and Hank has de-potted one of my plants and also dug a trench along the patio and gotten the green outdoor rug and pulled it over to the side. He has this love for being totally filthy too.
> 
> I guess that's the downside of fun dogs, they're usually fun whether you want them to be or not.


Oh yes, the digging, I forgot to warn you about the digging LOL. Thanks to Josefina, the yard at the ranch looks like the surface of the moon LOL


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Laurelin- you should be ticketed for having too much fun with that dog. I think he is related to Tigger.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah he's airborne a lot of the time, haha. 

My back yard now has a dirt pathway where Hank has worn out the grass. Also has a nice dozen or so holes scattered about. Whoops.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Yeah he's airborne a lot of the time, haha.
> 
> My back yard now has a dirt pathway where Hank has worn out the grass. Also has a nice dozen or so holes scattered about. Whoops.


Same here, you have to watch where you walk because of all the holes Josefina has dug -_-. I looked at Paco collars and WEEE they are expensive!!! I think I will stick with petco collars LOL, because my dogs are so rough on their collars.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hank broke his Paco.  I have to send it back to get it repaired.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

how did he do it? Izze had a knack for getting collars off and shredding them, or, if she couldnt shred them, she would bury them :/. I gave up keeping a collar on her except for when she went out somewhere LOL.

Josefina is a bit nicer with her collars, but she likes to swim so much, that a leather collar would be a waste of time for her. She has a collar made from synthetic lether material, its the same material they make the broodmare collars out of (thats essentially what it is, a friend of ours at the place we used to work was ordering a bunch for the mares at the breeding farm, and we gave him the money to order Josefina's with the bunch. It turned out pretty good! it has a brass nameplate with her name and my phone number on it, should she ever get lost.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Hank broke his Paco.  I have to send it back to get it repaired.


Well leave it to Hank! The high altitude that Hank stays in constantly probably broke down the collar faster


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