# Play aggression & Gentle Leader problems



## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

Hi, first time poster here.

I have a 14 week old lab mix puppy (mixed with what is anyone's guess!) who had play aggression so badly that I had to seek help from a professional animal behaviorist. So we are now on a "program" which I won't go into in detail right now, but it's confinement, exercise, rewarding good behavior based. It's very difficult (especially because since she is easily overstimulated, I can't pet, hold her, etc. for now until we get the bites under control). Has anyone else had this problem with play aggression? I know she means no hard, but she's a wild thing, and my puncture wounds were alarming to others (and obviously to me). I looked like I was doing massive self-mutilation.

Anyway, as part of the behavior modification program, I need to increase this puppy's exercise. She walked perfectly when I first got her (Aug 27) but then again, she was barely 7 pounds and it wasn't "her house" yet.

So now, I had her fitted by the behaviorist (who has the utmost credentials) for the Gentle Leader, and practiced putting it on with treats, and walking with lures, etc. Several days lapsed before I could try it again (we had a huge yard sale, enuf said), and now when I put the GL on her and connect her to leash, she leaps like a fish on a line (like she did at first with the professional) but ALSO BITES THE LEASH. Am I doing something wrong? Has anyone else used the GL and had the dog bite the leash while hooked up? We both got so frustrated practicing walking in the house today that I quit.

If anyone here has dealt with this Gentle Leader and play aggression issues, I would appreciate your perspectives and thoughts. This is really difficult and I need some support!!!! She's driving me crazy. I admit I am probably too lenient, but I am really following this behavior protocol. But for example today, we were outside playing ball, and she jumped up and bit my jacket. I get stuck, frozen in place, because she won't release. It scares me, although I try to remain calm. I reiterate, she is "play aggressive", not trying to hurt me. So I have got her to stop biting me inside, and now she attacks me outside. And my behaviorist is out of the country for a few weeks. I got lots of bad advice from other people before I found this person, and I really trust her.

I just want to know if anyone else has gone through this....I can't "return her" because I got her from the shelter and she will be deemed not adoptable if I take her back. I feel so frustrated. 

Sorry for the rambling, I just needed to vent and connect with anyone who has dealt with this....


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I wonder if "aggression" is really the appropriate word to pair with "play." Who is your behaviorist? Have you seen the third video down on this link by Pamela Dennison on creating a conditioned emotional response... to the Gentle Leader? http://abrionline.org/videos.php

As for the rough play, how are you working on impulse control? Have you tried any exercises like the following: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc

And lastly, walking isn't the ONLY exercise you are trying to do with this dog, right?


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## doggieideas (Oct 16, 2009)

My puppies always tried to use my hands as a play thing. Keeping rope toys, balls, or other interesting toys to exchange and use in play. It's alright to tell them "no" when their biting your hand and then when they play with the toy to encourage the action with praise. In response to using the Gentle Leader, I only use mine when we are going for an actual walk outside. The distractions outside can be enough to take their mind off the the contraption around their nose. A walk is always a good reinforcer, so the Gentle Leader will start to signal something good is going to happen. My dogs go crazy when I pull it out and it has given me the ability to control my 80 lb lab/mix.


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## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

Play aggression is the actual diagnosis; it's not just "rough play." At first, I did think it was rough play, but then the clamping down and punctures became severe. The behaviorist is a DVM, there are only a few DVMs who are certified in behavior as well.

The impulse control activities in that video require the use of hands....we're not quite there yet since my hands are the target of my puppy's play aggression. We're trying to keep me from getting bit at this point. And yes, I was officially trained in using the Gentle Leader and I can get the collar on with treat enticement, etc. but it's the walking part that is hard, because she bites the leash. My last dog just took to the GL after a very short resistance. But this one is really like trying to reel in a shark (ok, maybe not a shark). I made some more progress tonite on that, but I am concerned with her biting the leash while on it. I never recall my other dog doing that with the GL, and this puppy did not do it when we were with the behaviorist.

I walk her (or did until the walked became a struggle with leash biting/pulling, and even with lures, she does this, thus I wanted the Gentle Leader). We also play ball and frisbee for hours each day, and she has her own fenced in yard. She doesn't like toys. But she is VERY FOOD MOTIVATED, so much that I have to be careful when I give her a treat - putting it in the palm of my hand rather than between my fingers to prevent an excited nip. She does not mean harm, but this is really difficult. I reiterate, this isn't the normal (and I have been through that before) "play biting." I would love to hear from others who have dealt with play aggression just to hear how they coped (or did they?). Supposedly, it's the easiest form of aggression to correct, but I'm so frustrated because the fun of a puppy is holding and cuddling and playing with it, and I can't do that until her "over-arousal" is fixed by modification accomplished by: confinement (inside, and I don't mean locked in a closet; I have a pen in plain view of me, a crate, and an inside tether...don't freak out when you hear tether, I would never tie a dog out), exercise and rewarding good behavior. I have a list of "rules" to follow, which I hope will work, but it has been 10 days (it seems like forever) and she still wants to bite me, but now when we're outside playing. And I don't have the confinement outside during structured play to protect me. Apparently play aggression is not uncommon as far as the types of aggression cases that behaviorists deal with, but I have never heard of it or seen it before. Nor do I know anyone who has had to deal with it. Honestly, I would take her back if I thought she would be re-adopted, but that wouldn't happen, and I wouldn't try to rehome her without correcting this problem first. I feel so stuck. I just want to hug and pet and play with my puppy. A little normal play biting wouldn't even phase me.

I do appreciate the feedback. Keep it coming! Thanks!


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

It sounds to me also that it isn't really aggression, just an out of control pup who needs to know how play with humans in a nice way.
Mine was really bad for this also and we could never play nice, pet, or show affection to her without the craziness. She was super naughty outside! Finally I started walking out there very determined that I own the yard and I will ignore her and go in the house if she wasn't nice. I started making my dog sit for me before I would throw the ball etc... and that really helped. I also had to teach her to take treats nice out of my hand before she would get it so she started knowing that hands mean good things not for chewing!
It took a couple of months or so before she really caught on and I think she matured in that area a little too.
I know how frustrating it can be! Walk around like your the top dog and don't be scared of her biting ( she will sense that) I'm almost positive it will get better with the training and as she matures I worked through these problems with my pup and now she's great in that way but now we have a couple of other challenges......
Also, I think it's fairly common, not uncommon that's for sure! for some pups to play this way until it's corrected. I never knew this either until I got my most recent dog


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I'd love to see a video of this puppy in action. I honestly cannot imagine...


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## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

I took some video (DVD) to take to the behaviorist, but there was no need for the dr to look at it, because the wounds on my arms and hands were self evident. I think this puppy might be part alligator. Why am I making a joke, this is so not funny...


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I agree, this really isn't funny if this is truly an _aggressive_ 14 week old puppy who really needs the help of a veterinary behaviorist. Are there any pics. or video Online of either the dog "in action" or the damage done? I'm fascinated by the concept of the behavior described being seen in such a young dog, especially one who didn't start out that way...


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

It sounds like the pup doesn't have any bite inhibition. We have had puppies at work that sound similar. They get over stimulated and just go nuts with the biting. Almost like a switch flipped in their brain and they are not thinking, just biting/going nuts. Usually we "toss" them into a crate to chill out and they outgrow it. With the really young puppies we will allow gentle teeth contact that doesn't hurt, as they get older any teeth to skin contact is discouraged (by ignoring). If they turn into a nutso biting fiend they get put into a crate for 10-15 minutes. Some of them come out of the crate and end up back in almost immediatly, this usually only lasts the first few days then it seems to start getting better.


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## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

Yes, that's what it's like, like a flipped switch and "mad biting dog." But no growling or snarling, just biting, like that's how she knows how to interact with me (NOT!). 

You saw progress after several days? Yikes, I have been doing this Behav Mod protocol for 10 days now and the confinement keeps her from biting me inside, but it's also killing me (guilt) to confine her this much (pen in full view, tether to me in kitchen which AMAZINGLY works so far, no bites to legs/ankles yet, crate, and tether in family room). 

But today outside, we were playing ball and frisbee. I went to gather up all the balls she had left (I don't let her return them to my hand, I have her drop it and I have another one ready to throw so she can't get to my hands) and she jumped up and bit the back of my jacket and was hanging on. I don't know how I got her off, she was attached, but then she started going for my sleeves. Relentlessly. And hanging on with those razor sharp puppy teeth. It's a very helpless feeling, because there is no immediate remedy (I won't hit her). And what if she had bitten through the jacket? She was revved up. Finally when I could divert her (I think I baby-stepped my way to a ball or something and threw it away from me), I calmly (but not really) walked inside. So now the playtime outside for exercise has become a biting zone. I can't confine her out there, too...defeats the purpose of going out for exercise.

SIGH, so frustrated. It seems like everything I do is wrong in handling this.

P.S. But why would she not have learned bite inhibition? She was a stray WITH her mother and brother (says the shelter) until 6 weeks old, then put in the shelter and kenneled with her brother (apart from their mother) for a week after then when I adopted her. Wouldn't her mother and brother have kept her in line with biting...shouldn't she have learned from that?


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

An option outside is to get some sort of fencing/pen to split the yard. Put her on one side of it and you stay on the other. Get a chuck it or something else you can use to pick up the ball when she brings it to you to throw. If she goes into a bitey frenzie you can turn around and walk away. 

Another option is to use a long tether outside, stand towards the outside of the where the tether can reach and be sure not to toss the ball outside of where it can reach. When she goes into a bitey frenzy, walk away inside for 5 minutes. Come back and start playing, if she goes into another biting frenzy, go inside again, over and over again. 

Another option is to have her drag a leash outside so you can restrain her that way (but don't give a leash correction, that tends to make them even more stimulated). Simply use the leash to hold her away from you until she calms down. When she calms down, have her sit and reward that. Wear thick gloves, and layers so you don't get hurt.

And yet another option is to have a crate you keep outside and have her drag a leash. When she starts getting biting grab the leash and put her into the crate to cool off. Again, thick gloves and layers to protect yourself.

If she wasn't socialized with dogs other than her mother and brother she may not have generalized bite inhibition to other creatures than them. They also need to learn bite inhibition with people, a gentle bite to another dog is not a gentle bite to sensitive human skin. Have you thought about putting her into doggy daycare? It may be good for her to learn some things from other dogs. A place that can put her in a small group with one or two other puppies and a few adult, well socialized dogs would be best, and of course an experience daycare attendant.

The dogs at work that were like this often didn't really stop until they were around 6 months or so. I wouldn't call them aggressive, just overstimulated and how they seem to process it is by getting bitey.

Self control exercises would help a lot, like "its yer choice" (I would wear heavy gloves), "rev up/cool down" (with you on one side of a gate and her on another), crate games, the exercies in control unleashes also would probably help her.

I also wanted to add that the puppies (at work) that seem to get this the most are retrieving breeds, and it makes sense, they are hardwired to put things in their mouth. So, when they are over stimulated they go into default mode.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I am also curious, as I have never heard of "play aggression", though I would imagine it is heightened excitement/impulse control problems combined with a lack of bite inhibition. 

As for the leash biting, what I did for management for the GSD I was working with was buy a lightweight but long choke chain and a carabiner...I attached one end to the dogs regular collar (for you, the GL loop) and the other to the end of the leash. This way he got a mouth full of metal (not pleasant) instead of scissoring through the leash.


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## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

melgrj7 said:


> It may be good for her to learn some things from other dogs. A place that can put her in a small group with one or two other puppies and a few adult, well socialized dogs would be best, and of course an experience daycare attendant.


We are going to kindergarten classes, and for playtime/socialization period, we are in a "special" group with 2 other dogs. It was gorgeous to see her playing with another puppy her age - they were having a blast. The older dogs in the neighborhood don't want anything to do with her because she's too rambunctious. The behaviorist is concerned about her being overwhelmed by groups of dogs (unbelievably, she is, or was, shy in groups of dogs. So we have our two little puppy friends that she can frolick with in class until her confidence with more dogs is established. I think she has already made progress with this in the 2 weeks since we have been in kindergarten. She was much more comfortable last week, but we need to take that slowly so she doesn't develop fear.

The other thing you said was "the way the process it is just being bitey..." - what does that mean? Are they allowed to bite people (I am talking skin breaking, blood drawing bites, not puppy nips)?

*And also, I am new here, but where do you work, at a shelter? Where do you see these biting puppies?*

And I don't have video or photos posted online. I don't know how to upload video, and not sure I would want to if I did. It might be interesting, but at the same time it's awful. I probably won't post the pictures either.

Thanks everyone for your input and ideas. I had to look up "carabiner" in the online dictionary! The choke collar and "carabiner" might work for the leash biting...that's what we have for her family room tether.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

didee said:


> The other thing you said was "the way the process it is just being bitey..." - what does that mean? Are they allowed to bite people (I am talking skin breaking, blood drawing bites, not puppy nips)?


What I meant is the way the puppies process or react to being overstimulated is by biting, not that they are allowed to, its just their default reaction when overstimulated.

I work at a dog daycare, we usually have around 50 dogs a day, sometimes more, sometimes less (not all in one group, we split them into 3-4 groups depending on how many and which dogs are there that day).


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

"Play aggression" is a new on on me, too. The very idea sounds cockeyed to me. And I don't have a really good reason--beyond not being a huge fan of the devices--but I wouldn't put a Gentle leader on a pup that young. Admittedly, I don't have the privilege of putting letters after my name, so TIFWIW. 

My Golden was one of those when he was a pup. A real lunatic. I don't see aggression as playing into the behavior. Overstimulation, prey drive, and poor impulse control are the main culprits IMO. There are a lot of specific techniques you can use, but it is important to remain as impassive as humanly possible. More if you can manage it. Getting excited or frustrated won't make her calmer. The other thing that got me through that long (sorry to tell you) period, was having a body of water nearby. There are just not enough hours in a day to get one of those pups the exercise she needs--unless you can get her in the water. Leash walking just won't cut it.

Keep your medicine cabinet well stocked with Neosporin and hydrogen peroxide.

Just so you know that the end result is worth the effort, my guy is going on 4 years old and he's the sweetest chooch you ever met. He still needs more attention and exercise than most puppies, but he's good company and very well behaved.


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## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

Marsh, a lot of people say to me "oh yeah, I had that with my puppy, too." I know that puppies (I have raised a few in my day) playbite. I just want to be very clear, this is puncturing (down to my tendons in some cases, very deep), clamping down, not releasing and obsessing about hands, pants legs, etc. I guess they get her excited/overstimulated. The vet/behaviorist saw me and said "completely unacceptable." And I had never heard of play aggression either.

Are you talking about the same thing here? If so, how did you escape the grip (I am supposed to prevent it via confinement, but now it has moved outside and I can't prevent it, so I have no safe place)? How long did this last in your case? Again, I know I am being redundant, but I am accustomed to play biting. That I could handle. This is not the same. But she isn't trying to be vicious - it's her way of interacting and playing due to overstimulation. I wish I had some water to put her in. But it's cold here now so even the nearby lakes are going to be too cold (or at least you couldn't pay ME to go in them!). Thanks.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

didee said:


> Are you talking about the same thing here? If so, how did you escape the grip (I am supposed to prevent it via confinement, but now it has moved outside and I can't prevent it, so I have no safe place)? How long did this last in your case?


Pretty sure. I haven't seen your pup, but you haven't seen the scars on my hands. 

My Dog Fu is very strong. The trick is to control the head. Always. Confinement works to a very limited degree, but the pup has to learn how to interact with people. Confinement only delays the inevitable. You can use short periods of social isolation to give the message that proper behavior = inclusion in activities, but the message won't register if it's more than very brief moments. At 14 weeks, she's got the attention span of a Spider Monkey on crack. I don't like to use the crate for that, so I'd short-leash him to an eyebolt screwed into the wall. As soon as he was calm for a few seconds, he'd be freed. Don't expect that to have any lasting effects (see: attention span).

Every pup comes along according to his/her own calender. Just keep at her. It gets better.


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## emiro123 (Mar 1, 2017)

My dog sounds like he has the exact issue was it ever resolved??


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

A 14 week old puppy? This sounds like totally normal behavior, especially for a Lab! They are mouthy little devils! Most likely, she is not being aggressive. She is just playing, but she does not know how to play appropriately with humans yet. Bleeding and looking like a walking pincushion comes with the puppy territory! Seriously, my dog ripped holes in me until he was around 9 or 10 months old. Still catches me every once in a while when he gets a little too wild. He body checked me regularly, scoured my arms with his teeth, knocked me over, and chewed on my ears when I was sleeping. 

I would not be using a Gentle Leader on a 14 week old puppy, personally, because there is no danger of a 14 week old puppy pulling me over. For a big 100 lb. Lab, sure, but a puppy? No. Instead, just use your leash and collar and work on teaching loose leash walking. Zak George or Kikopup on Youtube have great videos for teaching this. You can also look it up on this forum. The more you work on it now (and not depend on a modification device) the less trouble you will have in the future.

Like I said, my dog was kind of a shark. He likes to use his mouth. Couldn't really pet him when we brought him home at 5 months old because he would bite our hands and wiggle and throw his teeth around. Ouch. What worked for us was to withdraw all attention when he placed his teeth on our flesh. We got up and walked away. You can step over a baby gate, close a door, whatever, just withdraw attention for 30 seconds or so. It took a LONG time. We consistently withdrew attention when he behaved inappropriately, and at 10 months he was at least not making us bleed anymore. Note, he was 5 months old when he came to us, so he may have had a bit of "no biting people" before, so this was nearly a year of training. It is no short and sweet training. He still mouths when he is overstimulated, and it can pinch, but no bleeding.

What your puppy lacks is bite inhibition, which is not unusual for a pup that age. Make sure there is a toy near you at all times, and encourage the pup to bite that. Doesn't take the hint and still bites you? Get up and walk away. Biting your clothes? Try to redirect to a toy, and if the hint is not taken, walk away. Also, I suggest wearing clothes you don't mind ruining, lol.

How long are you exercising this pup? Walking (forced exercise) should by 5 minutes per month of age. It's really not that much, otherwise you risk damaging joints. Try training obedience commands using treats and positive reinforcement instead. 5 minutes of obedience training is hard for a puppy! And, it will strengthen your bond. Don't underestimate the power of a nap! Is the pup barking and running around and biting everything in sight and is oblivious to treats or toys you have and your redirections? Pop him in his crate with a yummy chew for a nap. 

Seriously, this one time my dog was running around the house barking and carrying on and causing destruction and blood everywhere he went. Couldn't figure out why. So, I grabbed my handy Kong, put him in his crate, and continued with my day. Dog slept for 5 hours, crate door was open, I was walking around, but he did not move. Perfect angel when he woke up. They can be like toddlers. They throw tantrums when they get overtired. Never underestimate the nap.

Hours of ball and frisbee each day, but she doesn't like toys? Really? I think she at least likes balls and frisbees....

My dog ate my hand when he took treats. So I sat down and worked with him on taking treats nicely. Opened his mouth all wide and prepared to lunge for the treat? Treat disappeared. Slowly and gently took the treat? Yup, you get that one. I wore a glove. He sucks on my finger now, but he doesn't bite my hand to get the treat. I figured that was good enough.

Really, your pup sounds normal. Lab mixed with who knows what else? Yeah, normal. She is being inappropriate and obviously lacks bite inhibition, but this is something that does go away with time, maturity, and training. Did she have a littler, by the way? Or was she all alone and orphaned?


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

Lol, I totally just noticed this was from 2009! Sorry!


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## WesselGordon (May 17, 2017)

A very old thread but an interesting one.


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## emiro123 (Mar 1, 2017)

I brought the thread back up again because my 7.5 month lab mix seems to be having the same issue. Sometimes when playing fetch all of a sudden he will get so worked up and then just jump up and grab my arm, sometimes while growling. It's happened like 3 times in past couple of months. It's kind of scary and seems like he's attacking but it always during play. Also, he will get into these bitey moods where he will bark and bite my arms and legs. It doesn't usually draw blood but it hurts a lot. It doesn't give me the impression of an aggressive thing but to someone who doesn't know him might think so. People keep telling me he's a puppy but I thought they are supposed to stop the crazy mouthing around 6 months. IT makes me scared to have him around anyone but me. 

I give him tons of exercise and play time with other dogs. I also have done 4 months of obedience class which he excels in. And I'm thinking of starting clicker training. Any advice??


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

emiro123 said:


> I brought the thread back up again because my 7.5 month lab mix seems to be having the same issue. Sometimes when playing fetch all of a sudden he will get so worked up and then just jump up and grab my arm, sometimes while growling. It's happened like 3 times in past couple of months. It's kind of scary and seems like he's attacking but it always during play. Also, he will get into these bitey moods where he will bark and bite my arms and legs. It doesn't usually draw blood but it hurts a lot. It doesn't give me the impression of an aggressive thing but to someone who doesn't know him might think so. People keep telling me he's a puppy but I thought they are supposed to stop the crazy mouthing around 6 months. IT makes me scared to have him around anyone but me.
> 
> I give him tons of exercise and play time with other dogs. I also have done 4 months of obedience class which he excels in. And I'm thinking of starting clicker training. Any advice??


The page of advice I wrote earlier still applies. Labs are notoriously slow to mature and known to be mouthy. He may be 2-3 years old by the time he seems to grow a brain. It takes time, and 7.5 months is still in the middle of a very annoying adolescent phase. Think of him as a 13 year old human. Think they know everything, but are really quite awkward and stupid.


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