# Wanting to feed half raw half Orijen for puppy. Need help



## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

So currently I have a new addition. He's on Orijen Large Breed Puppy with primal goat milk poured on top for one of his meals of the day. I want to do one raw meal a day but Im not sure what would be the best thing to do. My cats get fed "Better in the Raw" with meat I add. They do really well on it but Im not a fan of the dog version ingredients so I need suggestions. If Im still feeding Orijen once a day does the other raw meal even need to be balanced? Either that or I was thinking about trying Honest Kitchen Kindly and adding meat to that. If the raw meal doesn't need to be balanced would the proper amount of just plain chunks of meat be sufficient? Maybe with an egg with or without shell couple times of week with salmon oil? Im just not entirely sure and need reassurance. Thank you!


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

If the raw meal is going to make up more than 20% of the diet then you will need to make it balanced. If you want to feed a prey model raw diet that would be 10% bone 10% organ (with half of that being liver) and 80% meat. If you want more details I can grab the appropriate websites.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

I like the thought of prey model raw however not being familiar with it makes me nervous because he is going to be a large breed dog. The way I understand it is to much calcium can be harmful I think? Id rather do something a little more black and white like the Honest Kitchen Kindly or something similar to Better in the Raw like I use for my cats. Unfortunately they add rice bran and a few other things to the dog version and I'm just like what??? Why?? So that's why I'm wondering if anyone has other suggestions.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I'd feed the cat version of Better in the Raw at 50% of the diet and have no problems with that. It is probably a lot more expensive than the dog version but cat and dog nutritional requirements are nearly identical, cats needing a couple added and restricted minerals/vitamins is about all. Dogs can eat cat food without issues, other than it likely is very rich, but if cats eat dog food exclusively they are likely to get sick. If half the diet is trying really hard to be perfect then mixing with a diet that you trust is perfect it would be just fine.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

There is a Great Dane breeder who feeds PMR (she is one of the founders of Preymodelraw.com) without issue.

And yes, you have to make sure it's balanced if you want to do half half


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Thanks for the replys. I read on the Better in the Raw website their ingredient descriptions for the dog version. I mean their reasonings seem legitimate for the rice bran I suppose? 

Taquitos I would like to do PMR it's just I don't have any idea how I would decide how much bone to use with the calcium already in the Orijen you know??

Does anyone have any opinions on the Honest Kitchen Kindly? It's their first formula that's potato and grain free. Only reason I'm considering it. Also it would be easy to just add chunks of meat to that instead of grinding it all.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Zilla said:


> Thanks for the replys. I read on the Better in the Raw website their ingredient descriptions for the dog version. I mean their reasonings seem legitimate for the rice bran I suppose?
> 
> Taquitos I would like to do PMR it's just I don't have any idea how I would decide how much bone to use with the calcium already in the Orijen you know??
> 
> Does anyone have any opinions on the Honest Kitchen Kindly? It's their first formula that's potato and grain free. Only reason I'm considering it. Also it would be easy to just add chunks of meat to that instead of grinding it all.


I would just do half and half. Follow the standard 80-10-10 ratio for PMR and feed accordingly, and feed kibble accordingly (in half the portion).

I believe there is a member on here who feeds Honest Kitchen Kindly and their dogs have done well on it


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Orijen makes a freeze-dried raw diet.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Freeze dried is like double the cost of actual raw because of how expensive it is to make. &#55357;&#56883; otherwise that might be a good choice. 

Taquitos- I guess raw bones kinda scare me. I just don't know if I would use what 1 Chicken leg a day?? Or what the heck Id be doing &#55357;&#56834;. Or cut out half the bone in there? I mean what bones can an 8 week old handle? I've fed chicken necks to my cats before but it freaks me out because I do worry about choking. I wish who ever uses Honest Kitchen Kindly would get on here and chime in.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

I was told not to mix raw and kibble because they need different enzymes to process each. I don't know if it's true or not.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Jen2010 said:


> I was told not to mix raw and kibble because they need different enzymes to process each. I don't know if it's true or not.


It's not... the stomach can't tell if food is cooked or not.


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## stroop (Jan 8, 2015)

gingerkid said:


> It's not... the stomach can't tell if food is cooked or not.


True but they do both have different digestive periods. Raw takes way less time to digest then kibble.
That being said, I've never had a problem mixing. Some dogs will have problems, however. Something to keep in mind.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

stroop said:


> True but they do both have different digestive periods. Raw takes way less time to digest then kibble.
> That being said, I've never had a problem mixing. Some dogs will have problems, however. Something to keep in mind.


Yeah, the digestion time doesn't have to do with different enzymes to digest cooked vs. raw meat though. 

I never understood the different digestion rates thing... vegetables and meat digest at different rates too, but both are found as ingredients in almost all kibble...


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

FYI: here is a scientifically-referenced article about canine digestion.

http://www.pabbyspetpantry.com/forms/rawandkibble.pdf


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Yes I will not be planning on mixing raw and kibble in the same meal. They will be to seperate ones. I know some people do mix the two and have no problems though. Ultimately just like my cats I would love him to have all raw but a soon to be 120 pound plus dog on raw? I don't know if I could afford that haha

Very interesting article gingerkid!


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Zilla said:


> Freeze dried is like double the cost of actual raw because of how expensive it is to make. &#55357;&#56883; otherwise that might be a good choice.
> 
> Taquitos- I guess raw bones kinda scare me. I just don't know if I would use what 1 Chicken leg a day?? Or what the heck Id be doing &#55357;&#56834;. Or cut out half the bone in there? I mean what bones can an 8 week old handle? I've fed chicken necks to my cats before but it freaks me out because I do worry about choking. I wish who ever uses Honest Kitchen Kindly would get on here and chime in.


Well if it worries you so much then I guess don't do it? I think maybe you need to do more research  Try this link:
http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com/prey-model-raw.html
Different cuts of meat have different percentages of bone. You need to calculate how much 10% bone is. The goal is to achieve this on a long term. I calculate for every three days, portion out and bag for my own dog.

And if this comforts you at all, I've been feeding PMR for three years now to my three cats + dog. No choking here. The worst we had was a chicken bone that got stuck between the molars.



Jen2010 said:


> I was told not to mix raw and kibble because they need different enzymes to process each. I don't know if it's true or not.


It's not true. You can mix it just fine if your dog is used to eating both. And kibble and raw both have meat, which are processed using the same enzymes. It's the vegetable content. Processed or not processed, it doesn't make much of a difference in digestion rate.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

This might be a dumb question so bare with me Taquitos  haha you say you calculate for every three days. So over those three days it's only ten percent bone? Or for each day it's ten percent bone. Just trying to make sure I understand this right. Thank you so much for that website!! Theres so many references! As far as daily feelings with PMR. How do you portion those out? Like with my Better in the raw I put the daily portion in baggies and just pull another out every morning for the next day. Is that what you do?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Zilla said:


> This might be a dumb question so bare with me Taquitos  haha you say you calculate for every three days. So over those three days it's only ten percent bone? Or for each day it's ten percent bone. Just trying to make sure I understand this right. Thank you so much for that website!! Theres so many references! As far as daily feelings with PMR. How do you portion those out? Like with my Better in the raw I put the daily portion in baggies and just pull another out every morning for the next day. Is that what you do?


The overall diet should be 80-10-10 (so 10% bone), so 10% of the three days' worth of food should be bone.

Here's an example of a meal I make:
Meeko's ideal weight is 7.25 lbs, and he eats 2.5% of his body weight, so a total of ~0.18 lbs a day, and 0.54 lbs for three days.
10% of 0.54 lbs is 0.054 lbs.
Chicken wings are 46% bone, which means:
0.054 = x * 0.46
0.054/0.46 = x
x = 0.118
So, I am looking at 0.118 lbs of chicken wings for the three days.

I portion out the meat for every 3 days and put them in a baggy. I don't weigh them out after that, I just give 1/3 of the bag everyday until he runs out. So some days he doesn't get bone, some days he doesn't get organs, but he gets the 80-10-10 during the 3 days, and therefore, overall, he is still getting the 80-10-10 ratio


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Alright so I think I might have this. I used leg quarters since he's a bit bigger and Im assuming they are ok to start with? The website said for puppies feed 2-3 percent of estimated adult weight or 10 percent of current weight. I don't know what he weighs currently though Im sure doing it that way would be better than estimating with adult weight. 

2.5% of estimated adult weight at 120 is 3lbs. Half that for one raw meal a day is 1.5lbs. 
4.5 lbs for 3 days.
bone would be 1.6 chicken leg quarters over the 3 day period assuming the average of 27 percent bone. 
Liver would be 0.225lbs
Organ would be 0.225lbs

So after taking the weight from the leg quarters and the organ I just add boneless muscle meat to make the 4.5 total lbs? Correct? Really confusing to wrap my head around at first but I think I might have it now haha


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Zilla said:


> Alright so I think I might have this. I used leg quarters since he's a bit bigger and Im assuming they are ok to start with? The website said for puppies feed 2-3 percent of estimated adult weight or 10 percent of current weight. I don't know what he weighs currently though Im sure doing it that way would be better than estimating with adult weight.
> 
> 2.5% of estimated adult weight at 120 is 3lbs. Half that for one raw meal a day is 1.5lbs.
> 4.5 lbs for 3 days.
> ...


Yes exactly  Make sure to feed the organs and liver with a bone-in meal!

You're looking at about 1.7 lbs of chicken quarters for the three days


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## Siould (Jan 2, 2015)

Feeding dogs a raw diet is very dangerous. Well over 99% of veterinarians and the FDA agree. The bacteria in raw meat pose a very real risk to humans. Raw diets are also unbalanced. Bones can also choke a dog to death. Just like humans, dogs can get food poisoning. Ask almost any vet and they will tell you that the bacteria in raw meat can make your dog or cat very sick. All meat fed to your dog should be cooked first. Any raw or undercooked meat can give your dog salmonella poisoning. If you feed your dog raw meat and he or she ends up vomiting, it’s a good chance that you have just infected your companion with salmonella. Listeria is also found in raw meat.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Siould said:


> Feeding dogs a raw diet is very dangerous. Well over 99% of veterinarians and the FDA agree. The bacteria in raw meat pose a very real risk to humans. Raw diets are also unbalanced. Bones can also choke a dog to death. Just like humans, dogs can get food poisoning. Ask almost any vet and they will tell you that the bacteria in raw meat can make your dog or cat very sick. All meat fed to your dog should be cooked first. Any raw or undercooked meat can give your dog salmonella poisoning. If you feed your dog raw meat and he or she ends up vomiting, it’s a good chance that you have just infected your companion with salmonella. Listeria is also found in raw meat.


Not even going to respond to that... You must have been sent here by the Fda or something lol If they are so unbalanced my cats woulda been dead a long time ago because that's all they get... They also would not be in the greatest shape I've ever seen them in. Don't knock something until you seen the benefits or at least know legitimate information about it. My vet would never say ANY of those things either FYI.... She's pro raw feeding and whether you or the FDA likes it or not more and more every day are changing to that and seeing the benefits.. Sorry.


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## Siould (Jan 2, 2015)

If your dog gets diarrhea after eating a raw meal, chances are that you just infected your dog with listeria. Humans can also get very sick from handling raw meat. You can also contaminate your counters with salmonella and listeria. Even if your dog doesn’t get sick from salmonella, it can still become a carrier. Once a dog is a carrier of salmonella, they will shed the bacteria every time they have a bowel movement. A dog with salmonella may or may not show a fever. Symptoms of infection usually begin within 12 hours of feeding raw. Listeria is rare in dogs, but it is cause for concern.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Siould said:


> If your dog gets diarrhea after eating a raw meal, chances are that you just infected your dog with listeria. Humans can also get very sick from handling raw meat. You can also contaminate your counters with salmonella and listeria. Even if your dog doesn’t get sick from salmonella, it can still become a carrier. Once a dog is a carrier of salmonella, they will shed the bacteria every time they have a bowel movement. A dog with salmonella may or may not show a fever. Symptoms of infection usually begin within 12 hours of feeding raw. Listeria is rare in dogs, but it is cause for concern.


Well guess what it's never given my cats diarrhea and my dog gets raw green tripe and raw goat milk and he's never had it either. Id appreciate it if you would stop contaminating my thread with misinformation. Go somewhere else. You might as well be saying things like lions and wolves shouldn't eat raw meat because of the fear of listeria and salmonella lol and that we all know is just absurd. Haha but whatever....


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## Siould (Jan 2, 2015)

Listeria can infect a dog’s brain. Symptoms of listeria don’t usually show up until about 11 days after infection. Every time you give your dog raw meat, you are putting their life in danger. The CVM did a two-year study on different diets for dogs.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Siould said:


> If your dog gets diarrhea after eating a raw meal, chances are that you just infected your dog with listeria. Humans can also get very sick from handling raw meat. You can also contaminate your counters with salmonella and listeria. Even if your dog doesn’t get sick from salmonella, it can still become a carrier. Once a dog is a carrier of salmonella, they will shed the bacteria every time they have a bowel movement. A dog with salmonella may or may not show a fever. Symptoms of infection usually begin within 12 hours of feeding raw. Listeria is rare in dogs, but it is cause for concern.


Really? Your argument is that humans can get sick from handling raw meat? I'm pretty sure most of the population handles raw meat when cooking for themselves and are just fine by doing normal disinfecting procedures. (Washing hands, wiping counters, etc)

Why is it more dangerous for humans when the meat is intended for dogs?


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## Siould (Jan 2, 2015)

Raw was included in the last year of their study. They found salmonella and listeria in the raw pet food. They analyzed 196 different samples of raw food and found 15 to be contaminated with salmonella and 32 to be contaminated with listeria! No dry exotic pet foods, jerky treats, semi-moist dog food, semi-moist cat food, or dry dog food was found to have salmonella or listeria.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Siould said:


> Raw was included in the last year of their study. They found salmonella and listeria in the raw pet food. They analyzed 196 different samples of raw food and found 15 to be contaminated with salmonella and 32 to be contaminated with listeria! No dry exotic pet foods, jerky treats, semi-moist dog food, semi-moist cat food, or dry dog food was found to have salmonella or listeria.


Could you answer my question instead of spouting more anti-raw jargon?


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I knew this person would comment after reading their other thread.

Siould, many forum members here feed raw/part raw and many also feed Orijen (gasp!). I don't think there has been a single member who has had a dog get listeria from raw...

We actually have a vet on here who feeds part raw without issue 

I personally have been feeding raw for 3 years now, and the worst issue I had was getting a piece of bone stuck between my dog's premolar/molar!

I wonder what you would say if your dog had diarrhea while being fed kibble... You do realize kibble often contains bacteria such as salmonella right?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Sadly commercial foods including Science Diet and prescription diets are also usually contaminated. 
http://truthaboutpetfood.com/the-pet-food-test-results/

I've given my dogs food poisoning from a fast food hamburger. It is completely different from an upset tummy due to too much, wrong kind of food that usually happens. My dogs had that one time and never again.

Been cooking with raw meat for 50 years, been feeding cooked or raw food to my dogs for 8 years. Zero food poisoning incidents here. I did get food poisoning from a teriyaki bowl at the county fair once though.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I guess butchers have a pretty dangerous job, huh?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Siould said:


> If your dog gets diarrhea after eating a raw meal, chances are that you just infected your dog with listeria. Humans can also get very sick from handling raw meat. You can also contaminate your counters with salmonella and listeria. Even if your dog doesn’t get sick from salmonella, it can still become a carrier. Once a dog is a carrier of salmonella, they will shed the bacteria every time they have a bowel movement. A dog with salmonella may or may not show a fever. Symptoms of infection usually begin within 12 hours of feeding raw. Listeria is rare in dogs, but it is cause for concern.


Yeah, thats why I wash my hands with as hot a water as I can stand and antibacterial soap after handling raw meat. I feed Josefina our own kind of raw additive, made from ground meat (locally sourced, no additives, freshly ground that day) I mix some into her grain free kibble every night with no problems. I also feed them RMB's every once and a while for their teeth.

Below is a photo of my dog (who eats raw meat) and me, Boy ... we really look like we are about to die, dont we


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Is this person like a Science Diet rep or something? Clearly they are lol Looks like my pets are dying too since they eat raw... Ha You know Siould clearly you might want to do some more reading because I can name numerous occasions my vet has been able to take diabetic cats off insulin by feeding them a completely raw diet... So if it's as bad as you say it is how can my vet be successful doing that?? Hmm?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

LOL I love intentionally ignorant people ... they make for a lot of laughs, thats for sure.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

Here is my pup enjoying some goat ribs. He isn't lacking anything...


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

luvmyfurballs said:


> Here is my pup enjoying some goat ribs. He isn't lacking anything...


You DO know that the next person to use that toilet is going to get salmonella, right?


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

aww poor Happy  here she is at 14.5 years old, raw fed since she was 8 months. who's gonna break the news to her that she's half dead?


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Siould said:


> Listeria can infect a dog’s brain. Symptoms of listeria don’t usually show up until about 11 days after infection. Every time you give your dog raw meat, you are putting their life in danger. The CVM did a two-year study on different diets for dogs.


So wait... if your dog has diarrhea after a raw meal it is caused by listeria, even though you have openly admitted that listeria symptoms don't begin until well over a week after the date of infection? Do you not consider diarrhea to be a symptom?

Also, finding bacteria in a sample of food is much different than finding it at levels high enough to cause illness. And actually, only a fraction of people that come into contact with a pathogen ever get sick from it. There are a few exceptions (like rabies), but for the most part... eating one _salmonella_ cell (or two, or ten) isn't likely going to give a health adult gastritis.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

Siould said:


> No dry exotic pet foods, jerky treats, semi-moist dog food, semi-moist cat food, or dry dog food was found to have salmonella or listeria.


So, uh, when I got salmonella from contaminated dry kibble 4 years ago I must have just been imagining it right? It was just a coincidence that I got salmonella right after handling (like full on sticking my hands in the bag and scooping kibble into a Tupperware with my hands then eating human food right afterward without washing my hands first (not my best plan, it was during a road trip)) a bag of dog food that was later recalled for salmonella?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

hahaha this is all so funny


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## amdeblaey (Jun 27, 2009)

http://www.amazon.com/Raw-Natural-N...=1422912779&sr=1-4&keywords=raw+diet+for+dogs

That's the book I read when starting my dogs on raw.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

OMG All you awful people feeding raw! Dont you know you, your dogs and everyone that visits your home is going to DIE now?!?!?! How dare you do such a reckless thing!!!

(kidding of course  )


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