# My standard poodle bit 3 people this week!!



## Angie's Bella (Dec 28, 2008)

I started a thread a couple of weeks ago about my standard poodle being aggressive and I tried a few of your suggestions, but things have gotten worst  Just in the last week she has bitten 3 different people. Luckly it hasn't been anything major yet, but I am worried that this is going to get worst.

As I stated before, we have 6 acres of land but only about an acre that is fenced and we have a doggie door that leads out to the fenced area. When Emma isn't in the fenced area she seems fine, however, when she is in the fenced part she becomes very aggressive. She came to me as a rescue and I kept her because she does so well with my other standard and with the rest of my family and over all she is a GREAT dog!! But the aggression is out of control and I don't know what to do about it. She has also became very protective of my kids and now I think she may bite even if she was out of the fence and the kids were outside.

The scary thing is is that sometimes she comes to the fence with Bella (my other standard) who is always looking for some love and Emma acts like she wants to be petted too but when you reach for her she bites. And she isn't playing!! So far they have been warning bites that haven't broken the skin and one of the people she bit was someone she knows (my brother). Sometimes she acts REALLY agrresive charging the fence and showing teeth, but that isn't as scary as acting nice and then biting. At least when she is snarling and showing teeth people know to leave her alone.

I am thinking something in her past has triggered this behavior, but I need to figure out how to make it stop. Any suggestions? Anyone ever had to deal with this before? Also, do I need to put a beware of dog sign up or does that make me more liable if she does hurt someone? HELP!!


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

Angie's Bella said:


> Any suggestions? Anyone ever had to deal with this before? Also, do I need to put a beware of dog sign up or does that make me more liable if she does hurt someone? HELP!!


Yikes!! I really don't have much advice in the dept of aggressive dog "dept", &..I know that some here may disagree, but, I myself DEFINITELY would put up a "beware" sign...to some, this would automatically "imply" that you were harboring a "vicious" dog perhaps in the court of law, BUT, also, in another sense, it DOES give you some "leverage" that you have attempted to "warn" others to be sensible BEFORE they enter your yard area. I live in the commonwealth, &, the laws here are pretty strict, BUT, I do know that if you have proper containment of your dog, the dogs shots are up to date, the dog is registered to your city, &, you have clearly marked your property with warnings, well, then you will likely be able to defend you case to some degree.
I personally would put a soft muzzle on the dog before letting the dog "outside" just to be on the safest side as possible.. It sounds to me as if you have a lawsuit in the hinges! 
I hope that someone else here can give you better advice than I...I really do wish I could "wave a magic wand" in your direction to help, but, I realize that you really are in GREAT NEED of someone who has proper training in this dept...*crosses fingers for ya'*


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## Angie's Bella (Dec 28, 2008)

Thanks Yappypappymom!! I am worried that I may have problems coming up the road as well. I am going to get a warning sign and post it on both the gates. I am really at a loss as to what to do about the issue. She is really a loving and sweet dog and if you could have seen her when I first got her you would have never imagined that she could have ever been aggressive. And with me and the rest of our family she is GREAT, Sweet, loving and gentle. I just can't bear to find her another home or anything else. I guess this is the risc you take when you take in rescues


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Although this sounds more like barrier aggression, which is something you can work with through training, a thyroid check might be in order. 

Putting up a warning sign could set you up liability-wise, and does nothing to resolve the issue. Each time she displays this unwanted behavior, that behavior is being reinforced, making it more difficult to change/stop. She needs to be prevented from EVER doing it again. 

Since Emma does this when inside the fenced area, you're going to need to control her through management, until you can work with her through training. Which means you need to contain her inside, or, in a smaller fenced/kennel area where she cannot get to people who come onto your property. If you don't work with her, it's not going to go away on it's own, and may escalate.


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## Charlene (Sep 12, 2009)

you should NOT put up any kind of warning sign. as has been said, doing so indicates that you KNOW the dog is liable to bite. God forbid it should happen but if somebody gets bitten seriously and sues you, just the fact that the warning sign was there will go against you.

when i boarded my horses in a residential area, i always worried about kids feeding them grass over the fence and getting bitten, even though on the horse's part, it would have been unintentional. my then-husband (a circuit judge) told me NO to the warning sign but he said said it was ok to put up a sign that said "please do not feed fingers to the horses".


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

You can put up a sign that says dogs on premises, or please do not pet dogs, but I wouldn't put a beware of dog sign up.

You need to manage her until you can fix this through behavioral modification. Either go out with her each and every time she is in the yard or make it so people cannot reach her by putting in a secondary fence inside the first fence.


edit/
guess I should have read ahead, oops . . . what poodleholic said


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree that it is time for a Thyroid check and a professional. If the thyroid comes back normal I think you need a certified behaviorist to first assess what is actually happening. Once you have determined the source of her aggression you can begin tackling the rehabilitation. It does sound mostly like barrier aggression/ possessive behavior. Both of these can be worked with.


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## Angie's Bella (Dec 28, 2008)

OK, no sign! That last couple of days have been fine, as I said before, she only bites when someone reaches into "her" area. Although, she is also starting to become very protective of the kids. It is crazy how she acts inside the yard vs. the outside. It is like two different dogs. 

So the thyroid can make her act like this? I guess I have never been told that before. Looks like I will be going to seee the vet today.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Angie's Bella said:


> Just in the last week she has bitten 3 different people. Luckly it hasn't been anything major yet, but I am worried that this is going to get worst.


Human-directed aggressive behavior is a very bad sign. Whether the attacks (three!!!) were "major" or not is irrelevent. You are lucky that your dog is still with you and not already impounded by the animal control authorities.

A dog that has learned to attack humans on its own is an untrustworthy animal. Your dog needs some serious social behavior modification. It may be beyond your capability or even the capability of a regular trainer. 

You need the services of a dog behaviorist who specializes in human-aggressive dogs. The first thing that would be required in any case would be a complete medical workup. So you can do that on your own if you want to. 

Unfortunately, there have been cases of "insane" dogs that cannot be reliably socialized at all. This is actually a form of epilepsy ("rage syndrome") and must be treated with medications. But don't assume that this is the case until you have had your dog evaluated by a veterinary behaviorist.




melgrj7 said:


> You can put up a sign that says dogs on premises, or please do not pet dogs, but I wouldn't put a beware of dog sign up.


We have signs on our fence gates that say "Dogs In Yard - Please Keep Gate Closed". It gets the point across without implying any sort of knowledge about the dogs' behavior. 

This is more for the dogs' protection than anything else. Our dogs have always been well socialized and none have had rage syndrome. But of course a dog is a dog - and all dogs have teeth and all dogs will use them if sufficiently provoked.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

It sounds like either barrier aggression or resource guarding of her area.

The number one red flag here is that she is being put in this situation while you are not out there with her. The use of a doggy door may be okay for your other dog, but this dog obviously shouldn't be allowed to go near the fence where you run the risk of her biting someone. She should not be given any opportunities to bite someone especially given how clear cut the issue is being presented.


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## Angie's Bella (Dec 28, 2008)

I appreciate everyones input on this matter. I did talk with my vet today and I am taking her in to have a full work-up done. My vet (who is very familiar with Emma) recommended that I put a sign on my gate advising people not to pet my dogs (since this seems to be what triggers the behavior). My vet seems to think that people showing fear at her barking may be what is triggering the behavior more than anything and for me to be sure that anyone she reacts to gives her a sharp "NO" when she exibits that behavior. I had my brother try that today when he was over and she stopped barking and went inside, so maybe *crossing fingers* that will be what it takes. My vet was amazed to hear that she was showingany aggressive behavior because she is themost passive dog in every other situation. She really is a great dog and she is awesome at the vet and at the groomer. Just for whatever reason, she doesn't want anyone in "her" space. She has no problem with other animals coming in, just no people.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I highly disagree with telling her a sharp "NO" when she begins to bark. That's fighting fire with fire and can make the situation escalate. Talking to her in that manner may only make her more anxious and have her get more defensive when she sees people approaching the fence.

I don't want this to come across as snarky, but I'd take what (any) vet says about behavior with a grain of salt - your every day vet really doesn't know that much about complex behavior problems.

I maintain that the biggest preventative here would be to supervise her when she is out in the pen and handle the situation accordingly. Feeding her treats far back from the fence line as people walk by may be a good place to start. You may need to find someone willing to help out that would simply walk by at some distance and not direct any attention to the dogs. Doing this and gradually decreasing the distance can desensitize Emma to the presence of others. Teaching a default behavior when people approach the fence may help too (such as moving to the back of the pen or going inside).


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## Angie's Bella (Dec 28, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I highly disagree with telling her a sharp "NO" when she begins to bark. That's fighting fire with fire and can make the situation escalate. Talking to her in that manner may only make her more anxious and have her get more defensive when she sees people approaching the fence.
> 
> I don't want this to come across as snarky, but I'd take what (any) vet says about behavior with a grain of salt - your every day vet really doesn't know that much about complex behavior problems.
> 
> I maintain that the biggest preventative here would be to supervise her when she is out in the pen and handle the situation accordingly. Feeding her treats far back from the fence line as people walk by may be a good place to start. You may need to find someone willing to help out that would simply walk by at some distance and not direct any attention to the dogs. Doing this and gradually decreasing the distance can desensitize Emma to the presence of others. Teaching a default behavior when people approach the fence may help too (such as moving to the back of the pen or going inside).


The only problem with this is that she doesn't respond to others at all when I am out there. She is a different dog all togather when I am there. Her tail is wagging and she is smiling, she doesn't really go over to people that she doesn't know, she just doesn't respond to them at all.

When I first got her she was very fearful of everything and everyone. Any fast movements or loud noises and she would coward. the first couple of months she didn't even bark. Bella has always been a barker and Emma started barking because of Bella. When the barking first started she would stand by the door and bark and as time went on she got closer to the fence and then she would bark at the fence and now, well, you know. I ignored the behavior completely at first and then when I started hearing how serious she sounded I would say something like "Oh, hush Emma" and she would was her tail and quit. I have tried not to draw any attention to the issue thinking that would make it worst. 

I am going to limit her time outside and try to not let her be out without me there to supervise, that is just hard because I spend countless hours in my office everyday and her and Bella LOVE to play and chase each other around all day. But, I don't want her o be taken away from me for biting either. I love her dearly and I want to do what is best for her.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

So the issue only manifests itself when you're not there? 

Sounds like anxiety, then, for sure. My best guess is that she's afraid of having to interact with the people without you there to handle the situation.

Another idea might be to put up a double fence so that people CANT reach in and pet them.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> I don't want this to come across as snarky, but I'd take what (any) vet says about behavior with a grain of salt - your every day vet really doesn't know that much about complex behavior problems.


I'm not sure what you mean by an "every day vet."

A veterinary behaviorist _*is*_ a vet who specializes in behaviorial problems. An applied animal behaviorist(AAB) is a non-vet, but is professionally trained in animal behavior. 

Animal Behaviorists

The very best veterinary behaviorists and AABs are actually board certified, but they are so few and far between in the US. And most of them only take referrals and/or are associated with large university animal hospitals. However, there are veterinary practices that do specialize in behavioral issues and have an AAB on staff.

In any case, I would consider a veterinary behaviorist or an AAB as trustworthy when it comes to behavioral problems.

If a local behaviorist is not available, Tufts University has a PETFAX program - see the link above.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

What I mean is that vets who go to vet school for their four years but don't get certified in behavior usually know diddly-squat about it. You generally don't go to a veterinary behaviorist for every day stuff (shots, check ups, etc), though I suppose there are some that do both.

I know that NONE of the vets where I live would do me any good when it comes to training stuff. I'd have to go to the big hospitals about 60-90min away.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

I think miss mutt has given a lot of good advice.



Angie's Bella said:


> I am going to limit her time outside and try to not let her be out without me there to supervise, that is just hard because I spend countless hours in my office everyday and her and Bella LOVE to play and chase each other around all day. But, I don't want her o be taken away from me for biting either. I love her dearly and I want to do what is best for her.


I don't think you should just be concerned about her being taken away from you. You should also be concerned about the harm that she might do to someone, possibly a child. It doesn't seem (to me) like you are thinking about this enough. No offense, but why are you still allowing these situations to occur?

If it were me, I would have stopped leaving her out by herself, _ever_, after the first bite. The fact that you are more concerned about her not getting to play with her buddy shows a lack of perspective.


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## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

I agree with Canteloupe. Years ago I had a Pembroke Corgi that snapped at children. Of course, little children's faces were near the dog's face and so I just made sure that the dog was NEVER around small children. He didn't snap at adults. 

I wasn't going to mention the time that I was going out and my husband said that he had someone coming around who was bringing a toddler. So I sad "When you are in the garage - make sure they don't come in the house with Bandit - because he can't be trusted around small children." So - what happened? I got home and my husband said the people came in the house and Bandit nipped at the child's face!!! I might as well have saved my breath! The problem was solved because shortly after this, Bandit, who had been on medication for epileptic seisures, ran down the stairs and dropped dead on the kitchen floor. 

Your dog is much bigger than a Corgi and can do far more damage, although obviously you don't want even a little dog biting people. 

You have the solution - never let the dog out off the leash.


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## Angie's Bella (Dec 28, 2008)

First of all, she isn't even slightly aggressive with children! Secondly, I have thought about this "enough" and I am concerned about more than her being taken away from me. If I thought for one second that she was going to really hurt someone I would have taken a more aggressive approach. When she is outside she is eother in the fenced area (which is in my back yard gated off from everything else) or on a leash. Please do not try to mkae it sound like I am an irresponsible owner. The people who have been nipped have reached their arm over into her area with her barking and giving warnings that she does not want to be messed with. As I stated before, this only seems to be a problem when I am not there so now she isn't allowed outside when I am not home.

I appreciate all of you who have been so helpful with advice on this. I am trying to everything in the best interest of Emma in keeping her safe and happy as well as trying to keep her from being a danger to anyone else. And yes, I was concerned about her being locked up all day and not getting her playtime in with Bella. But I would NEVER allow her to out if I thought she was truely a danger and I have stated several times that even when she is out she is in a fenced yard. The reason that I was concerned about her playtime is because poodles have a high energy level and if she doesn't get enough exercise it will likely lead to other issues. So, to the two of you that acted like I was stupid and didn't care about anyone but my dog, please think before you post. I do realize that there are people out there that are that ignorant but don't just assume that everyone is.


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## Ocsi (Oct 11, 2009)

I'm sorry, maybe I missed it; but is it to a certain pattern?
say against men? or people wearing hats? or anything you can see repeated in what triggers her?


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## Angie's Bella (Dec 28, 2008)

No, really the only pattern is when I am not present. There is one lady that she does it to when I am there, but she looks a lot like the previous owner that mistreated her, so I am thinking that may be the issue. I actually contacted the lady she came from (bad lady that should never be allowed to own dogs) and asked if there was anything she could think of that may be triggering the behavior like maybe her being aggravated throught the fence, ect. and she said no. Honestly though, that lady NEVER tells the trueth, so who know  What I do know is that she (Emma) is a really great dog 99% of the time and I am going to put a sign up telling people not to touch my dogs. I personally think that anyone who is willing to reach out and try to pet a dog that is acting aggressive is crazy, but that's just me. Everytime she has bitten the person bit has said that she was barking and acting aggressive and they reached over the fence and tried to pet her. Hello!!


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## Ocsi (Oct 11, 2009)

btw- caution, home owner's insurance could go up if you have a 'reported biting dog' on your property??


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