# Drop on Recall



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have been preparing Atka for her CDX for awhile. She has a good drop (in that she never does NOT drop) both hand signal and verbal. Very reliably she drops. She just is not terribly fast about it or flashy. 

I have been playing "the Cheese Ball Game" where she drops and I say "Yes" and release her while tossing a cheese ball behind her. Some improvement.. not a lot.. 

I also will drop her, mark it and go to her to give her a reward.. and I have also dropped her and released her and rewarded. 

Looking for ideas on a snappier, classier DOR. Ideas?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Just curious is this a verbal or signal drop


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Both. She is actually a bit quicker on the signal (right hand raised straight up) and by that I am really splitting hairs. I have used both signal and voice at the same time but that seems to make no difference. 

She is reliable enough on the drop that if she goes for a squirrel or a rabbit I can say "DOWN!" and she stops (not always all the way down.. and this was from training her with the idea she would be herding sheep where the down is important to take pressure off the livestock). She is very good about dropping all the way in the midst of a recall. Also, to prevent anticipation, I do not ALWAYS drop her (tho that is what I am going to do in the ring).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I always like the German Platz command cause you could get some force in voice if needed as down is softer word.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I have been preparing Atka for her CDX for awhile. She has a good drop (in that she never does NOT drop) both hand signal and verbal. Very reliably she drops. She just is not terribly fast about it or flashy.
> 
> I have been playing "the Cheese Ball Game" where she drops and I say "Yes" and release her while tossing a cheese ball behind her. Some improvement.. not a lot..
> 
> ...


Does she have a toy she's absolutely ga-ga for?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Well, that is easy enough to train.. but what I find myself doing more often is using the hand signal. 

I HAVE gotten a very quick down by simply dropping my keys next to me when I raise my hand up. I think in her first 6 months of life she had the pennies in a can shook at her so she really hates the keys being dropped. I have done this but the affect on the entire rest of her performance AFTER I have done this is pretty dull (she really worries about those keys being dropped.. and if I do it once I think she anticipates them being dropped again and she is really done for a couple of hours). This is a good reason why anyone with a puppy needs to stay away from anything aversive with the dog is young. 

I could try to retrain the drop with Platz and see how it goes. I have 3 weeks to git 'er dun.... OTOH doing the Platz might confuse things in this time frame? I really would like a flashy, sharp drop. What she does is not incorrect.. it is just not memorable.

No. She has zero interest in toys.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

_I could try to retrain the drop with Platz and see how it goes. I have 3 weeks to git 'er dun.... OTOH doing the Platz might confuse things in this time frame? I really would like a flashy, sharp drop. What she does is not incorrect.. it is just not memorable._

I'm wondering if you could teach platz to mean something almost different from down. Down means lie down, platz means drop in mid-dash. You could even teach a head-down drop so there's no question in the judges mind that she's down all the way.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I could try to retrain the drop with Platz and see how it goes. I have 3 weeks to git 'er dun.... OTOH doing the Platz might confuse things in this time frame?


You do not listen to Dinosaurs and retrain, I just like to confuse the issue a tad.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Maybe you could shape an interest in toys? I did that for Wally at least.

As far as DOR - Wally has issues with this too, not that he doesn't understand, but he's too busy doing the "Recall" part (as in CHAAAAAAAARGE at me) to pay attention for when I want the drop. I KNOW he can stop on a dime to do it because he does it when call for a front from like 100 feet away, he charges then comes to a screeching halt like 4 inches from me. So why he doesn't do that to drop - probably because he thinks he needs to get by me to do it (i.e. he's seeing it as recall then once at me - meaning recall is done - THEN drop, instead of interrupt recall to execute drop - dang "thinking in chains" dog!)

If he does drop, he has to take like 5 steps to slow down enough and even then it's more like "Lie-down-and-crawl-a-few-steps-before-finally-stopping-on-recall" 

Behavioral adduction can be a pain in the butt sometimes. He wants to keep coming, but also wants to drop as requested (since that's also rewarding in the past) and he knows a little about how to crawl - so I end up with all three. 

I might have to adopt "Platz". The success I saw with using "abres" and "ciarras" for opening and closing doors makes me think that using a non-english language sometimes might be best. Sound is more distinct for him or something.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> I'm wondering if you could teach platz to mean something almost different from down. Down means lie down, platz means drop in mid-dash. You could even teach a head-down drop so there's no question in the judges mind that she's down all the way.


This is how I will try it when I do it with Wally.

It seems like it would be the way to go. I would say running at you and doing it from a standstill would be a sizable enough change in context for the dog to understand?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Like I said, Atka drops but almost carefully. Like the ground is hard.. (and it can be)... or like she wants to be 'arranged' perfectly in this pretty sphinx posture. She actually arranges herself (it is sort of funny to watch). She does not crawl (that would NQ her). She does not take 5 steps (sometimes 2) and then she carefully arranges herself. 

Now if she is closer to me, she drops nicer. However, the drop is signaled by the judge and can be at the early part of the recall run or the middle or the end (anywhere). Sooo...... what I am looking for is not getting the drop but having it go from this careful arrangement of dog parts into a lovely sphinx to a skidding sliding slamming DOWN.. if you know what I mean. 

I don't care if Atka likes toys (we do something with a flirt sort of a thing). It is just not high on our list these days. We have other fun.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I've had the best luck getting snappy downs if the dog is really up and drivey and having fun. Gatsby LOVES the cheese ball game and that really gets him going. He has a lovely, body slamming down in my hallway (the only place we've practiced it, it was our snowed in game). I also drop him a ton, I haven't seen a decrease in his recall because of it. When I'm thinking about it, sometimes I use "Come" when I'm going to drop him and "Front" for a straight recall. The chance of Gatsby getting to Open is HIGHLY unlikely, so take my advice as you will.

I'd probably wait until after the trial to try to fix this. If what you have now is passing, I would not want to take the risk of it falling apart in the middle of the trial.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Oh I have done the change up for the recall as well. Thing is if I say "Here" it may mean a drop or not will be asked. Same with "now" (her RRR word) and the recall hand signal. Front I only use after the drop. I will use other words and the hand signal after the drop as well, but front is what I want so that is what I ask for. 

This dog is food motivated and nose motivated (sometimes I swear she is a GSD that is really a Beagle somewhere inside). I play the cheese ball game and she goes for the cheese and the proceeds to sniff around because I might have thrown 2 .. or a piece MIGHT have broken off (I never throw two and a piece never breaks off, but she has to check because it MIGHT). The issue with the cheese ball game has been it leads to sniffing (her second most favorite thing in the whole wide world besides eating). 

What I have is what I have. Now I am looking for speed. 

Well, I will work on it and see what happens. If I do something different it will be completely different so that I still have the dog arranging drop that will pass should I need it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Personally, for cues, I prefer to use ..

DOWN = hip roll = stay excercise

DROP = sphinx = drop on recall / signal excercise


I'm not sure exactly what the cheese ball game is (probably similar), but maybe you could give these methods a try ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r9LM9J6AZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RQPQ5kvq4g&NR=1


Also, .. not sure how slow your drop actually is, but keep in mind that it could be minor deductions, major deductions, or it could even be an NQ if it is excessively slow ... at the judge's discretion.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> I've had the best luck getting snappy downs if the dog is really up and drivey and having fun. Gatsby LOVES the cheese ball game and that really gets him going. He has a lovely, body slamming down in my hallway (the only place we've practiced it, it was our snowed in game). I also drop him a ton, I haven't seen a decrease in his recall because of it. When I'm thinking about it, sometimes I use "Come" when I'm going to drop him and "Front" for a straight recall. The chance of Gatsby getting to Open is HIGHLY unlikely, so take my advice as you will.
> 
> I'd probably wait until after the trial to try to fix this. If what you have now is passing, I would not want to take the risk of it falling apart in the middle of the trial.


For my dogs, we didn't train duration--just "drop". Splat. NOW. For Auz especially, we upped the level by adding his favorite toy--flirt pole. He was free to chase, attack, bite, pull, scream, froth at the mouth, until I said "platz". He learned the sooner he went flat on the ground, the sooner I would release because initially he was released the INSTANT he hit the ground. He's got a pretty darned reliable drop, too  (Though we haven't done much practicing, now he prefers to "get comfy" as he's dropping by tucking one hip under him as he lies down).


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Oh VERY cool. We're going to play this game tonight.

Damnit, this is why my dogs can't heel!


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## dobedvm (Nov 1, 2010)

retraining with a different word isn't going to make a huge difference if you train it the same way - changing words isn't necessarily going to bring speed. 
how was the drop taught, and how confident is she? if one correction is enough to make her worried for hours, i'd consider her a soft dog and/or the level of correction completely inappropriate for her and what happened. how was her drop originally taught, and how did you convey speed? 

before my dogs are ever moving, i teach them to drop quickly from a stand. then with them in heel, we work on dropping QUICKLY - dropping slow is never an option, and if you are doing this with me right next to you, i will be there to correct you (collar pop down, one dog gets bopped on the head!) . then i do short drops in front of me - again close enough so that i can correct (arms length) for slow drops - this is for months and i ONLY reward fast ones. so we have a long history of fast being the only way you can do this. 

the one thing i would bring up is making sure she is physically comfortable and able to do the drop - is she coming in very quickly and then just putz's around, or is the entire exercise slow?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> For my dogs, we didn't train duration--just "drop". Splat. NOW. For Auz especially, we upped the level by adding his favorite toy--flirt pole. He was free to chase, attack, bite, pull, scream, froth at the mouth, until I said "platz". He learned the sooner he went flat on the ground, the sooner I would release because initially he was released the INSTANT he hit the ground. He's got a pretty darned reliable drop, too  (Though we haven't done much practicing, now he prefers to "get comfy" as he's dropping by tucking one hip under him as he lies down).



One, I need to invest in a flirt pole.

Two, I need to play my version of this with Wally again where I basically use chase like you use flirt pole (since he LOVES to run for some reason)

Freaking kids are always out on the playground though. *sigh* When is winter when everyone else cowers inside come again?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> retraining with a different word isn't going to make a huge difference if you train it the same way - changing words isn't necessarily going to bring speed.


Agreed, but the word itself is sharper/brusque and can be more of a voice aversive if necessary. I believe a tad easier for dog to hear. If/when a dog makes a mistake I want to make sure dog could/did hear command properly before any "fix mistake work" is started to avoid confusion. I must know the dog knows there was a mistake made.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have a video camera. I don't know if I can figure out how to do a video of her and post it.. maybe I will. 

We did a little work yesterday and she does the same drop if she is coming at me fast or just trotting. It LOOKS better from a trot. 

I agree that if I use a different word to train it, I will also need to use a different technique (no point in making the same mistake twice). She was taught to drop as DobeDVM describes (next to me, in front of me..) and she was taught to drop in the direction of travel (as I was working her on sheep.. and was, at the time, working on the Border Collie way of training). She had to listen to my down command (or whistle) and still pay attention to the sheep.. so there was a lot going on. This is probably why she is slow. She stops but is casual in the drop. She does stop well and that is the most important part of taking the pressure off stock.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

dobedvm said:


> retraining with a different word isn't going to make a huge difference if you train it the same way - changing words isn't necessarily going to bring speed.


I agree. A slow and lackadaisical drop is often the by-product of aversive training methods being used somewhere along the line, such as shaker cans or rattling keys etc. 

In my personal, and humble opinion, I think this is a good case for trying the 'mythological' purely positive method . If you're truly looking to obtain a fast, flashy, snappy, snazzy, and happy DOR, ... THAT'S the way to go.

Please review the links I posted previously, if you haven't already.

Good luck.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I looked at the links but where I can see them I cannot hear them. 

The down was taught with a clicker. Close in, not during recall, if you ask for a down, this dog flings herself on the ground. At distance she is slower and more 'arranging' than close in. I have been thinking of brining that cliceker out for this one thing to flash it up a bit... tho last night training we did something like the videos and were gettin a lot flashier drop close in. I am training Questa differently from the get go and she drops at a distance like someone shot her and then wants MORE. 

I did not get this dog until she was 6 months old. I think where she lived before they used the shaker can with pennies.. and she associates my keys (for instance) with that can (another case for not using aversives on puppies). I can be in the house and if I drop my keys by accident, she is demolished (and she is not normally a very soft dog). So.. something bad happened somewhere along the way. For all I know the pennies in a can were thrown at her. Whatever. I don't shake my keys at her (tho that is one of the suggestions by Dianne Bauman in her book).


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> The down was taught with a clicker. Close in, not during recall, if you ask for a down, this dog flings herself on the ground. At distance she is slower and more 'arranging' than close in.


That sounds like your problem right there. Keep her close so she's still dropping quick and increase distance slower.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> Well, that is easy enough to train.. but what I find myself doing more often is using the hand signal.
> 
> I HAVE gotten a very quick down by simply dropping my keys next to me when I raise my hand up. I think in her first 6 months of life she had the pennies in a can shook at her so she really hates the keys being dropped. I have done this but the affect on the entire rest of her performance AFTER I have done this is pretty dull (she really worries about those keys being dropped.. and if I do it once I think she anticipates them being dropped again and she is really done for a couple of hours). This is a good reason why anyone with a puppy needs to stay away from anything aversive with the dog is young.
> 
> ...


I sure wouldn't poison my cue by attaching it to something that worries her. I don't think it matters what word you use, and a harsher word won't get a better response unless it is an "or else" type thing. However, if you've done the key thing very often, it might be a good idea to change the cue (but maybe NOT right before a trial). I would also go to a differential schedule of reinforcement. Clearly mark the best drops (fast, enthusiastic) and reward those. The average or below average drops get "good girl." I would also break the exercise up and work on the part that is "broke" instead of doing the whole chain.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I sure wouldn't poison my cue by attaching it to something that worries her. I don't think it matters what word you use, and a harsher word won't get a better response unless it is an "or else" type thing. However, if you've done the key thing very often, it might be a good idea to change the cue (but maybe NOT right before a trial). I would also go to a differential schedule of reinforcement. Clearly mark the best drops (fast, enthusiastic) and reward those. The average or below average drops get "good girl." I would also break the exercise up and work on the part that is "broke" instead of doing the whole chain.


Yes to all of this. I have her dropping because it is what we do.. not an or else sort of thing (the keys dropped make it 'or else' and then she worries the rest of the time out there.. and I do not want any negatives IN the ring). We DO break it up (never ever pattern train a horse or you will, at letter A, get your canter and then it will be b4 letter A). I never pattern train my dog. I rarely put her thru the whole chain. I will SOMETIMES put her thru the whole chain IF she has dropped really fast. I have also dropped her at different distances in the recall because we do not want a pattern. Closer to me is faster (as you would expect). I also ask for the drop here and there just with her around.. rewarding for the fast ones. 

I think the issue started when she has been on sheep. German shephrds do not really drop when on sheep.. but I used the down command (because I erroneously started her with a Border Collie person). So... when she was asked to drop (at some distance) while on sheep she would STOP quickly.. but NOT drop fast (if at all) because she knew that signal meant for her to stop moving, not presure the sheep but to keep an eye on them ALL (because she is NOT a BC.. she is a GSD and tending means keeping an eye on them ALL). If one broke she would get it BACK to the pack. So the STOP (which she is good at) she did.. but the drop was sort of slow and arranging (when she did) so as not to startle the sheep who were nervous already (or the drop would not have been called for). All the while she is doing this she is also watching the sheep and looking for a breaker or a group of breakers who she will, _on her own_ go and get. That is what herding dogs do.

Obedience dogs do something different.. 

Ultimately I think retraining the drop with a different word, different technique designed just for the OB ring is what is needed. Meanwhile, I will retrain the stop command on sheep to s different thing (she is also a dog who works on the whistle) so she does not think about down in that context. 

Anyway.. this is just random thoughts on the thing for right now. Meanwhile, we will work on speed and reward for speed and see if it imporoves for now.. this series of trials (if there IS a series). 

Thanks.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm getting the "arranging" too.

It also slows his recall down because he's waiting for the drop and in some cases trying to anticipate it. 

I don't know if the slower recall is actually better - or if the "charging" is better. The "slower" is more like a fast trot instead of an all-out fast-as-he-can charge.

At least he's getting it. He WILL drop on the spot stationary at distance, even from large distance (I have no idea how many feet it is. Maybe one day I'll take a picture from my POV so you can see how far away he is).

But one the move, I'll get the arranging and it's harder for him to stop-on-a-dime and drop, even though he knows the foldback down.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The trick with getting rid of anticipation is to not ask for the drop every time.. and when you get the drop to reward it and NOT finish the chain. 

The top dogs gallop at the handler and skid to a stop/drop.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> The trick with getting rid of anticipation is to not ask for the drop every time.. and when you get the drop to reward it and NOT finish the chain.
> 
> The top dogs gallop at the handler and skid to a stop/drop.


One of the tricks, anyway. There are quite a few dogs I seldom drop as part of a recall early on. They tend to speed up some when they actually understand the exercise and are confident. Thing is, though, how does your dog KNOW that you prefer the fast drops over the slow and precise drops?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Just something I thought I'd throw in, when teaching a down from a sit, it's funny some will arrange themselves down and others will just flip the front legs forward and hit the ground with their elbows. With the work I do I am not asking for any special type down, just a down, no more, no less. Just thought it was an interesting fact since most have the same basic down program with whatever adjustments made needed for each dog.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Just something I thought I'd throw in, when teaching a down from a sit, it's funny some will arrange themselves down and others will just flip the front legs forward and hit the ground with their elbows. With the work I do I am not asking for any special type down, just a down, no more, no less. Just thought it was an interesting fact since most have the same basic down program with whatever adjustments made needed for each dog.


Now that you mention it, I've seen Wally do slide the front legs out from a sit, then I've seen him "stand" so he could fold down.

Never understood it. Why doesn't he just pick one? LOL. Silly dog.



Elana55 said:


> The trick with getting rid of anticipation is to not ask for the drop every time.. and when you get the drop to reward it and NOT finish the chain.
> 
> The top dogs gallop at the handler and skid to a stop/drop.



I do mix it up, which I think is confusing him even more. He's like "is he going to call for it this time, or do I keep going?" And that's slowing him down. 

For as psycho-crazy he can be, he really wants to "get it right" and I think that's what's causing the problem. He doesn't want to go fast and then miss it, but then he doesn't want to like take two steps and just drop (because that's not right).


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> One of the tricks, anyway. There are quite a few dogs I seldom drop as part of a recall early on. They tend to speed up some when they actually understand the exercise and are confident. Thing is, though, how does your dog KNOW that you prefer the fast drops over the slow and precise drops?


This dog has been dropping on command, whistle or hand signal for 3 years and not always during recall. I watch one person at my club working on Open and she drops her dog on recall over and over and over.... and then is upset when the dog comes slow, or stops dropping. I tend to toss a drop in walking around the house, out on the lawn, out on a walk, in the park.. IOW's wherever we are I will toss in a drop (usually be hand signal). Most of the time I keep recall and drop separate exercises. I also have ceased to do "doggy push ups" (sit-down-sit-down) repetitions as I believe it helps a dog to think that it is OK to go down from a sit. I do use oppositional reflex in the sit which gets the dog to lock up and take a more active roll in the stationary command (stays are another subject!). 

I have not rewarded a slow drop in awhile. I did not train the drop using boards from the Broad Jump (Diane Bauman does this) on the recall path and dropping her behind a board to start her. I did it differently. I first dropped her up close and then at distance from a sit or stand where she was staying and then dropped her in motion next to me walking and then when she was out ahead of me and moving away (started on leash) and eventually in any place, any time I asked for a down she was to go down in the direction of travel, including going out away from me.. and droppoing with her back to me. I taught her on whistle for herding and on voice as well. Wish I could use the shepherd's whistle in Open A..... 

*WVasko* FWIW I do have a dog who will fling herself on the ground if she is next to me and I have asked for the drop. At distance, and in motion, she is more careful.. but she had to be that way around sheep. She also will look around.. check the view.. another sheep thing. I am not blaming the sheep herding at all.. I am wondering if that is why the DOR is slower at a distance. She goes down but is looking around as if she is looking for something she is supposed to be 'holding' in position (like an errant rabbit or a lamb). BTW we did practice on rabbits on the lawn with the Drop too (developing self control). Again.. she recognzed right away the object of the drop was to 'hold' the livestock (or rabbit.... she will herd cottontails).


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Elana, I noticed you've mentioned Diane Bauman book twice now, are you using Beyond Basic Dog Training as your main text book? I picked up a used copy recently, interesting stuff, although it is not my favorite if we're talking traditional texts. I have a retrieve video by her as well, lots of Keeshonds. 

At what point away from you does she start dropping slowly? Does she have to be in heel position to drop quickly or can you be toe-to-toe?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have a copy of the book you mention. It is NOT my main text. Fact is.. I do not have a main text. I use a little Balabinov, a little Koutsky, a little Bauman... common sense.. read the dog.. mix it up. Because of this particular thing I did open her book and see how she trains the drop from the beginning.

Some of each is good and other things not so much. So far, Balabinov and Koutsky have gotten the best training responses (or variations of their methods to fit my dog). Bauman has been successful and a lot of folks at my club go to her. I find some of her methods a bit harsh and I do not use them. The idea of the Broad jump boards to train the drop is interesting. Using Cavaletti to lead a dog back into the High Jump Retrieve is good too. 

Koutskey drops a dog all over the place. Sort of like that song, "In the park, On a lark, by a dog, near a log... " LOL. I do that too. 

She drops quickest toe to toe and next to me (neither position is superior). She starts to slow down at 10-12 feet from me (guessing) and then not always slow. Like I said.. she drops and is looking around like, "Where is the sheep/rabbit etc. I am taking pressure off? Gotta watch 'em! WHERE ARE THEY?" Next to me and facing me close in she knows it is "just a drop.. OK.. no sheep."


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Now that you mention it, I've seen Wally do slide the front legs out from a sit, then I've seen him "stand" so he could fold down.


Well just for the 30 to 45 days that I have the dogs it's usually whatever they start with is what they stay with. 



> FWIW I do have a dog who will fling herself on the ground if she is next to me and I have asked for the drop.


Well it could be something as simple as when she is at your side she is completely at ease and at longer distances mother nature is saying watch out could be danger around. That 1st 6 months you did not have her something could have happened that shaped this action. 

I don't have a clue just dumping stuff out here so confusion runs amok.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> She drops quickest toe to toe and next to me (neither position is superior). She starts to slow down at 10-12 feet from me (guessing) and then not always slow. Like I said.. she drops and is looking around like, "Where is the sheep/rabbit etc. I am taking pressure off? Gotta watch 'em! WHERE ARE THEY?" Next to me and facing me close in she knows it is "just a drop.. OK.. no sheep."


I'm pretty sure this is where Raegan is going, but could it be as simple as decreasing the distance until she's as fast as you want 95% of the time - so maybe at 8 feet away - then slowly increasing the distance? And if she starts slowing down again, realize that you're asking for too far a distance?

It sounds like it's a distance-from-you issue that she's having and so it's not really the fast down that you need to work on, but the fast down at a certain distance.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

dont know if your into Ellis but he discusses speed here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5InZ0V82AkA


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

jiml said:


> dont know if your into Ellis but he discusses speed here
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5InZ0V82AkA



This gave me a lot to think about - thanks for sharing.

And, at least while working with Wally, I've seen a lot of what he talks about. I wonder who disliked it and why? Doesn't sound like he was saying anything horrible?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

waterbaby said:


> I'm pretty sure this is where Raegan is going, but could it be as simple as decreasing the distance until she's as fast as you want 95% of the time - so maybe at 8 feet away - then slowly increasing the distance? And if she starts slowing down again, realize that you're asking for too far a distance?
> 
> It sounds like it's a distance-from-you issue that she's having and so it's not really the fast down that you need to work on, but the fast down at a certain distance.


That's exactly where I'm going. The way I would approach this is slllooowwwly increase the distance between you. 

Start toe to toe, get 3-5 fast drops, back up one step. Drop her. 
If it's fast, reinforce however you would. Then quit.
If it's slow, break her out of position (I wouldn't use any official command, just get her out of the down and move a few steps away from that space. 3-5 fast drops toe to toe (reinforcing each time so she knows that this is the game you're playing), one step back and try again. If she's still slow on the drop, I might try it one more time, but after that I'd release her to go do dog stuff.

So basically, break the drop out of the recall and work so she can drop quickly from a static position, like the signal exercise. When she can do that you can start adding it into recalls, but I haven't thought of a break it into pieces way to do that yet (assuming she's coming in quick, there's the decelleration problem).

Again, I don't think this is something you have time to fix before the trial.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

RaeganW said:


> That's exactly where I'm going. The way I would approach this is slllooowwwly increase the distance between you.
> 
> Start toe to toe, get 3-5 fast drops, back up one step. Drop her.
> If it's fast, reinforce however you would. Then quit.
> ...


Agree with above because it makes for a sensible approach and it's a if it won't help it won't hurt program but still follow advice wait till after trial.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Last night we did two run thru's with friends at Dog Club. First run thru was a Graduate Novice run thru where you can give the drip signal and verbal. She dropped fine. 

Second run thru (about 30 minutes later) was Open A routine. My reliable dropping dog was about to NOT DROP. When that happened I stepped toward her backing her up into a drop and did not allowing her her to finish coming to me. I also used a verbal to let her know that this was "unacceptable." When she dropped and I let her know that was what I wanted and rewarded the drop (but not a lot of exhuberance). 

We repeated the exercise and at the "judge's" signal she was dropped her FURTHER away and she went down like a stone. She came to front beautifully after that and finished nicely. Rewards and dog lovies followed. She was standing on her hind legs she was so excited from doing it right and from dog lovies and rewards. 

I want to work at home (and at the club) on random drops (not associated with a formal recall) and reward for speed. Last night I wish I had done that with her and NOT finished her run (my bad). 

I think we have it figured out and will let y'all know if there is improvement.


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