# Ugh...why do people insist?



## wkusigep460 (Jun 5, 2009)

I'll be the first to admit that for the first year of my miniature dachshund's life, I have denied him the food he SHOULD have been eating. Instead, we have fed him PurinaOne Puppy Chow. I always thought we were feeding him one of the better economy products. That was before I educated myself. I now know better and just today began to gradually switch his diet to Natural Balance Potato & Lamb. (I'll get back to my choice for advice later in this post). 

Anyways, I posted the fact that I was switching my dog's diet on Facebook today, and the following is the thread of comments that pursued (I am Mike by the way, and I have left off the last names of the other posters for their privacy):

_*Mike: Switching Cooper's diet to Natural Balance's Potato & Duck...are you feeding your dog the right food?....because we haven't been. Apparently, PurinaOne is essentially the best of the worst.*

Bradley: Naturals Balance is on the low end of good. Purina Pro plan is the only purina brand that the clinic I work at recommends..

Kara: where did this info come from? I've heard as long as the first ingred is meat it is good.

Helen: dachshunds you need to make sure he has a food with glucosamine or he is getting it supplemented. It helps keep the back problems away.

Mike: Anything Purina is garbage....literally. Even Pro Plan.

Mike: You need to have fatty acids, and low-grade dog foods such as Purina and ScienceDiet don't have these. These low-grade dog foods contain meat BY-PRODUCTS. You're basically feeding your dog leftovers.

Angela: WattTanner loves his mini kibbles n bits n bits n bits = )

Bradley: Most dog foods are essentially corn fried in animal by proucts aka fat. Science diet is actually one of the top recommended foods because you can prescribe a certain diet according to say a thyroid problem or kidney failure. Iams and Eukanuba are also good foods. Those three are highly digestible which can slightly decrease undigestible waste/ poop.. Lol

Mike: Nope Bradley...all bad. Sorry. 
http://forums.petlovers.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15617
http://forums.petlovers.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12958

Bradley: I work at a Vet clinic. I trust my doctors and what they tell us and what we are taught over any website!

Mike: "Vets are *NOT* nutritionalists. That is not what they are trained for. They are trained to be animal doctors; to diagnose illness and perform surgeries and such. Vets get very little schooling in nutrition (and what they do get is usually written by Hills, the makers of Science Diet). They recommend the foods they've heard of the most, typically foods like Science Diet, Iams/Eukanuba, etc.."

Bradley: I guess your petco sales person is! Nutrition is actually something vets are very skilled in considering an animals diet can determine a lot about it's health. I am not in vet school yet and nutrition classes are already required.

Bradley: Read the label and not what the petlovers forum says and you will find "fish oil" in the ingrediants which is a fatty acid supplement!

Sheila: Maddy loves her Iams!

Mike: You will also find meat by-products. I'm sorry, but I am not feeding my dog leftovers anymore.

Nikki: It's dog food. Enough said. All my dogs love their Pedigree!

Mike: Dogs will eat anything you feed them, it's up to you to decide what's best for them._


So, what does everyone think about all of this? I can't seem to get it through to these people that... 
1. There are good foods and there are bad foods.
2. Just because a vet recommends a certain food does not mean it's a good recommendation. You would like to think so, but there are a lot of politics behind what a vet recommends, just like a doctor recommending certain drugs to his patients. 
3. A dog liking the food does not mean that it is a good choice.


Also, I have a 7-lb, 1-year miniature dachshund. Just last night we went and bought Natural Balance Potato & Lamb. We were having troubles deciding what to get. We thought about getting Wellness, but eventually decided upon NB. If anyone recommends that we should have gone with Wellness, or something else for that matter, we are still willing to switch to that instead once this NB bag is gone. So....thoughts???


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Well people like to believe that they're feeding the best to their animals. Half my neighbors are feeding Science Diet and believing it's the best out there. They tell me that they're feeding the best dog food possible and it's imported from the US and when I ask them what it is, they tell me Science Diet. I've told them that corn and by-products are not good for dogs but they won't believe me at all. They have the vets on their side as well.

Well I don't personally care if they are feeding not as good quality food, as long as their dogs are doing well and not having diarrhea or anything like that, it works for them. I know lots of dogs that vomit and have loose stool on good foods like Innova, Canidae, Orijen, NB, etc. It really depends on what works for the dog. Some dogs do well on Pedigree or Science Diet.

Don't even bother with people like these. Just tell them that you believe what you're feeding is good and your dog does better on it, ignore the people that tell you otherwise.

If Cooper is doing fine on NB, there's no need to switch. Although it couldn't hurt to try a grainless food. Nia was on Innova and now on Orijen, I've found she pooped half as much on grainless! Maybe she couldn't digest even good grains like brown rice and barley well. Although Orijen is high protein, she doesn't seem to be having any problems like kidney or liver disease although I will have her blood tested next time we go for a check up to check the enzyme levels and such.


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## lightforce18 (May 6, 2009)

ive had arguments with people about this in real life too. Just ignore them let them feed there dogs what ever they want its their money.


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## wkusigep460 (Jun 5, 2009)

Would you put NB in your top 10? I want the best for Cooper (within a somewhat reasonable price). Do you think I should get a food with more protein?


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

wkusigep460 said:


> 2. Just because a vet recommends a certain food does not mean it's a good recommendation. You would like to think so, but there are a lot of politics behind what a vet recommends, just like a doctor recommending certain drugs to his patients.


It seems pretty ridiculous to ignore a recommendation from the person who you trust your dog's health with, right? It seems to me that, all things being equal, you should trust your doctor to prescribe the right drugs, and your vet to recommend a good dog food. Remember that both your doctor and your vet went to school for a long time to do what they're doing. Would you rather trust some random person on the internet, than someone that you know personally?

If you don't trust your doctor or your vet to do these things, why are you patronizing them?

/===== Added in Edit

I posted this link in another thread on this topic, but check out the following:

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...-2009/money/pet-food/overview/pet-food-ov.htm

This is a FAQ between Consumer Reports magazine and some ``experts in dog and cat nutrition at top vet schools''. So, take it or leave it:



article said:


> "There's no scientific evidence that any food is better than the next," says Joseph Wakshlag, D.V.M., Ph.D., an assistant professor of clinical nutrition at the Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine.


If you're looking for scientific evidence that your boutique pet food is better for your dog, you won't find any. If you do, post it here because I'd love to see it---I'm struggling with the same question about what to feed my dog, Daisy.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

BenTheMan said:


> It seems pretty ridiculous to ignore a recommendation from the person who you trust your dog's health with, right? It seems to me that, all things being equal, you should trust your doctor to prescribe the right drugs, and your vet to recommend a good dog food. Remember that both your doctor and your vet went to school for a long time to do what they're doing. Would you rather trust some random person on the internet, than someone that you know personally?


I do agree with this but the thing is some vets get kickbacks. For example many vets in England recommend Royal Canin and are sold in their office because they get money for it. Same with Science Diet in the US I think.

I would trust them if their opinion wasn't biased by the company giving them kickbacks. Thankfully my vet doesn't have an opinion on dog food. He doesn't try to sell me any and he agrees with what we feed based on ingredients.

Edit: although there isn't any proof that some pet foods work better than others, we do know that some dogs are allergic to corn/soy/wheat, etc. So I think it would make sense to find a food without those if you notice your dog having problems with them. For example, my dog doesn't feel well when she eats corn in her food. She gets itchier and she poops a LOT more. So I find foods without corn.

2nd edit: I also know that many dog food brands have had recalls and reports of pet deaths because of a bad batch of food. I try to stay away from those brands as well since the source they get their meat from is questionable.


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> I do agree with this but the thing is some vets get kickbacks. For example many vets in England recommend Royal Canin and are sold in their office because they get money for it. Same with Science Diet in the US I think.


I think it's fair to ask your vet if this is the case. If you suspect this, then why not try to find a new vet? And, if the process of vets getting kickbacks from pet food companies is so prevalent, why do they all recommend the same food?



> 2nd edit: I also know that many dog food brands have had recalls and reports of pet deaths because of a bad batch of food. I try to stay away from those brands as well since the source they get their meat from is questionable.


I think this is very fair as well---hopefully your vet would take this into consideration when (s)he recommends a food.


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## Rayne01 (Aug 31, 2009)

I have the same issue because my dog is picky and won't even touch certain foods. The only thing that I have found that she eats is Purina little bites. My vet told me that if thats what she likes, than thats what I should feed. My other two are on nutro, but it's getting so darn expensive that I'm afraid I'm going to have to change their food soon. Any suggestions on what to replace it with or what I could try with my picky little girl?

I have been considering feeding raw, but my fiance says that it is "out of the question"


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

A lot of people insist their food is good because for them it IS working. Regardless of what can/can't be said about Iams (and similar foods) quality wise, there are countless pets that live long happy healthy lives on such a diet. Anecdotally, it works for them so they support it. That's really how it is for any food though. Dogs respond differently to different foods, some can't take the higher-end stuff (based on owner stories, I have no experience with this) while they do great on the blander foods. 

It's just important to remember that you aren't automatically doing better because you feed a 'higher end' food. Pet diets are largely about finding what works for you and that particular dog. And there is a never ending supply of information and opinions on the subject. Check out some of the past dog food threads - there ARE some trends as to what's seen as quality and what isn't, but there is also a lot of differing in experience and opinion. 

That said, I don't/wouldn't feed any of the supermarket brands. That's just a personal choice though based on my research...I know that a lot of owners swear by those brands and have perfectly healthy pets.


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

Rayne01 said:


> My other two are on nutro, but it's getting so darn expensive that I'm afraid I'm going to have to change their food soon.


Why would you be afraid to switch to Purina? Probably the largest fraction of dogs in the US are eating Purina or Pedigree, and they seem to be doing pretty well.

Also, if your fiance is worried about a purely raw diet because of cost, you might choose instead to supplement your kibble with raw foods.


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## Teela Brown (Jul 3, 2009)

LOL well...like religion and politics...there are just some things you don't talk about! 

Dog food is apparently one of them!


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

People should feed their dogs food that their dog does well on and that they can reasonably afford.

I just don't get the food nazis on either side of the fence - the "OMG, how DARE you feed your dog _that_ brand. Don't you love your dog?" and the "OMG, anyone who puts more than 2 seconds of thought into what they feed their dog is a crazy, loser dog person."

p.s. Not all vets are idiots. Believe it or not, many of them actually do have an idea or two about nutrition.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

BenTheMan said:


> It seems pretty ridiculous to ignore a recommendation from the person who you trust your dog's health with, right? It seems to me that, all things being equal, you should trust your doctor to prescribe the right drugs, and your vet to recommend a good dog food. Remember that both your doctor and your vet went to school for a long time to do what they're doing. Would you rather trust some random person on the internet, than someone that you know personally?
> 
> .


Would you go to your basic personal doctor if you suddenly have sever foot/leg pains? probably, but they would probably recomend you to a specialist in the field of foot/leg issues if the problems persisted. 

vets get little teaching in class on foods. And the majority they get taught is by science diet (and other "high end" dog foods) company, so its a little biased teaching.

Why only trust your vet? they are one small person in the field of animal nutrition. why not branch out and read what the wonderful internet is full of, great advice, good advice and some bad advice, but you will find great advice if you dig deep enough.

Would you only take the advice you get from your own personal doctor if they said, "well it seems you may of pulled a ligment in your calf, take these pills" and thats that, but the pain stays for weeks and then months. would you not look at alternatives?


lovemygreys said:


> p.s. Not all vets are idiots. Believe it or not, many of them actually do have an idea or two about nutrition.


Seems they are starting to. My new vet agrees with my decisions on dog food. my past 2 vets all were hardcore "natzi" science diet, pedigree, purina pushing vets. My boyfriends mother feeds pedigree. And I tried to tell her its mostly corn and bone fragments among other unhealthy junk she is feding the dog with that food. She asked the vet, who then said i was wrong pedigree is a awsome food and I was plan wrong, so to say. She now bosts how good of a food it is. and how I should switch. doesnt understand what I say, since it contridicts what her vet says.

yet her dog has dry itchy skin, horrible tear stains, terrible teeth. bad breath, terrible hair (lhaso apso)

She says its all to do witht he dog being 11. Well I have kknown the dog for 5.5 years and she has always been like that.


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

Tankstar said:


> vets get little teaching in class on foods. And the majority they get taught is by science diet (and other "high end" dog foods) company, so its a little biased teaching.


Do you have proof of this, or is it something you've just heard other people saying?



> Why only trust your vet?


Why visit a vet that you don't trust has your dog's well-being in mind when making recommendations about dog food?



> why not branch out and read what the wonderful internet is full of, great advice, good advice and some bad advice, but you will find great advice if you dig deep enough.


Do you believe everything you read on the internet?



> Would you only take the advice you get from your own personal doctor if they said, "well it seems you may of pulled a ligment in your calf, take these pills" and thats that, but the pain stays for weeks and then months. would you not look at alternatives?


Probably I'd go back to the doctor and ask for another recommendation. But, that's just me.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Veterinarians get a whole two weeks of canine nutrition in vet school, the educational material is supplied by Science Diet or Iams. Both are proven junk food, full of fillers, by-products, and harmful artificial preservatives that are proven to be carcinogenic. I put far more trust in people who have degrees in nutritional science. I mean honstly, I'd rather get my nutrition from good quality whole foods and I'd rather gmy dog get it's nutrition from the same. I don't eat spam and my won't eat the nutritional equivelent of it (purina, Iams, Science Diet, Ol' Roy ect). 



BenTheMan said:


> It seems pretty ridiculous to ignore a recommendation from the person who you trust your dog's health with, right? It seems to me that, all things being equal, you should trust your doctor to prescribe the right drugs, and your vet to recommend a good dog food. Remember that both your doctor and your vet went to school for a long time to do what they're doing. Would you rather trust some random person on the internet, than someone that you know personally?
> 
> If you don't trust your doctor or your vet to do these things, why are you patronizing them?
> 
> ...


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> I just don't get the food nazis on either side of the fence - the "OMG, how DARE you feed your dog _that_ brand. Don't you love your dog?" and the "OMG, anyone who puts more than 2 seconds of thought into what they feed their dog is a crazy, loser dog person."


Ditto this. 
It just seems like there are a lot bigger issues to be worried about then what brand of food someone else is feeding their pets.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

lovemygreys said:


> People should feed their dogs food that their dog does well on and that they can reasonably afford.
> 
> I just don't get the food nazis on either side of the fence - the "OMG, how DARE you feed your dog _that_ brand. Don't you love your dog?" and the "OMG, anyone who puts more than 2 seconds of thought into what they feed their dog is a crazy, loser dog person."
> 
> p.s. Not all vets are idiots. Believe it or not, many of them actually do have an idea or two about nutrition.


 
I ahve found excellent foods that aren't an arm and a leg. Some of my favorite foods for dogs that don't have allergy issues is from Costco and another is Natures Recipe (price wise comparable to Nutro, but has MUCH better ingredients and gets a 110 on the dog food scorer). Good food doesn't have to cost an arm and a leg. 

Giving Dry Dog Food a Grade: 
Start with a grade of 100: 

For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points 


For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points 

If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points 

If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer’s rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points


If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points 

If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3 points 

If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points 

If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn’t allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points 

If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn’t allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

If it contains salt, subtract 1 point 

Extra Credit: 

If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points 


If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points 

If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points 

If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points 

If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

If the food contains barley, add 2 points 

If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points 

If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point 

If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point 

For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "turkey" as 2 different sources), add 1 point


If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point



94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D
<70 = F

Some foods that have all ready been rated:
A's Score
A+ Chicken Soup for the pet lovers soul 113
A+ Eagle Pack Holistic chicken 114
A+ Eagle Pack Holistic LG and Giant Breed Adlt 113
A+ Eagle Pack Natural 104
A+ Timberwolf Organics Lamb and Venison 136
A+ Solid Gold Bison 123
A+ Solid Gold Wolf King 109
A+ Solid Gold Hund N flocken 105
A+ Solid Gold Mmillennia 111
A+ Innova 117
A+ Natural Balance Ultra 117 
A+ Natural Balance Duck and Potato 114
A+ Canidae 119
A+ Foundations Chicken and Vegetable 109
A+ Flint River Ranch Fish and Chips 109
A+ Wysong Synorgon 110
A+ Flint River Ranch Lamb, Millet and Rice 117
A+ Back to Basics 107

B's
B Eukanuba Natural Lamb and Rice 87

C's
C Nutro Lamb and Rice 85

D's
D Iams Lamb and Rice 74

F's
F Pedigree Adult Complete 14
F Ol'Roy 9
F Science Diet Chicken Adult Maintainance 45
F Purina Beniful original 23
All Purina and Pro Plan foods rate as a F
F Pro Plan Giant Breed Adult 41
F Pro Plan Performance 53
F Pro Plan Chicken and Rice
F Purina Dog chow
F Purina Large Breed 40
F Diamond Lamb and Rice 61
F Diamond Performance (formerly professional)
F Diamond Large Breed 55


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

wkusigep460 said:


> Bradley: Most dog foods are essentially corn fried in animal by proucts aka fat. Science diet is actually one of the top recommended foods because you can prescribe a certain diet according to say a thyroid problem or kidney failure. Iams and Eukanuba are also good foods. Those three are highly digestible which can slightly decrease undigestible waste/ poop.. Lol


The quote above is really funny to me. Bradley is talking about how corn based food with by-products and animal fat are awful. Then he goes on to say that Science Diet is a great food!  I guess he doesn't read the labels. And to the best of my knowledge, dog food is not fried. lol


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Actually it's extruded which is the same as fried. That's why so many dog foods are greasy feeling.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

> BenTheMan said:
> 
> 
> > Do you have proof of this, or is it something you've just heard other people saying?
> ...


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Veterinarians get a whole two weeks of canine nutrition in vet school, the educational material is supplied by Science Diet or Iams.


This sounds like it's not true---do you have a source that confirms this, or are we to just take your word?

For example, in the link I've already posted, an ``Assistant Professor in Clinical nutrition'' from ``Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine'' is quoted.

It seems that a professor in clinical nutrition is a bit superfluous if veterinarians only get a two week course in nutrition, no? Why would a Vet School employ a specialist in nutrition if they never planned on offering a nutrition class? And why would they need someone to teach it if they could just get the evil people from Science Diet to do the job for free?


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Actually it's extruded which is the same as fried. That's why so many dog foods are greasy feeling.


And why a lot of dogs love low quality foods!! 

Heck I love French fries and pizza and would eat them every day, does that mean its good for me?

Prior to having a dog that had food sensitivity, I have to admit; I never read the food label on my dog's food. I never thought twice about feeding my eldest dog Iams, Science Diet or even the PC brand of dog food when I didn't have a chance to run to costco.

But when I brought home my youngest and she was throwing up her food, and had runny poop I did my homework on dog food! And what I read shocked me. Especially when I read the ingredients in the dog food my vet prescribed for my pup!! I researched the ingredients, to find out what was in my dog's food and what I found out disgusted me. I suggest anyone who believes that the food vets recommends is a good food do the same.

I feel horrible for feeding my eldest dog crap for years. Here I am all concerned about what I put in my body and never thought to look about what I was feeding my dogs.

I won't preach to anyone about what they are feeding their dogs, its their choice, but if they ask, I'll tell them. I think now I know a little too much about dog food.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

BenTheMan said:


> This sounds like it's not true---do you have a source that confirms this, or are we to just take your word?
> 
> For example, in the link I've already posted, an ``Assistant Professor in Clinical nutrition'' from ``Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine'' is quoted.
> 
> It seems that a professor in clinical nutrition is a bit superfluous if veterinarians only get a two week course in nutrition, no? Why would a Vet School employ a specialist in nutrition if they never planned on offering a nutrition class? And why would they need someone to teach it if they could just get the evil people from Science Diet to do the job for free?


This link is for the college in the city close to me.
in a 1 year program

15 "lessons" 2 are out of class placements and 2 are repeat type of courses. 1 is animal nutrition. in a semester with 7 different classes in it. it is obviously not a long period of time to learn all about dog food.
https://myplace.durhamcollege.ca/durham/program.do?from=subject&programID=1379

here is a college in Toronto which offers vet classes. a 2 year program 



> Areas of Study
> The curriculum includes the study of animal behaviour, small, large and laboratory animal nursing, dentistry, anaesthesiology, *nutrition*, clinical pathology, parasitology, microbiology, radiography, pharmacology, surgical techniques, comparative anatomy and physiology, genetics, and liberal studies. Animal care and responsibilities are important components of the program.
> 
> ]


Nutrition is mixed in with majority of actual procedure work to do on a sick/injured animal. out of 20 classes, there is very obviously not alot of time to focus on animal nutrition.

http://www.senecac.on.ca/fulltime/VTE.html


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## phoebespeople (May 27, 2009)

I like this topic. I can't wait for the next time I get to argue with a Vet about commercial dog food. Before we got phoebe I decided that our dog would never eat commercial dog food. My reasonoing is this:
The whole reason commercial dog food exists is to make money by disposing of waste products from human food production (rendered animal by-products and filler). Like it or not, that is what commecial pet food is made out of. Marketing fools the masses into believing that kibble is the most nutritious and convenient way to feed you pet, when in fact, it keeps your pet alive long enough to endure all the horrible health problem it creates in order to provide a source of income for the Vets who in turn prescribe a different type of kibble and recieve a commission for doing so. It's a downward spiral of cruelty and corruption, and we just let them do it. 
The other side of my argument is that dogs are carnivores, descended from wolves, who have evolved overn millions of years to eat raw animals. So to answer the question; what should I feed my dog?, the answer is, raw animals. It's a no-brainer. It's so simple. And the lame arguments Vets use to discourage raw feeding, pathetic. Condescending, ignorant fools! 

I hope that doesn't come across as being too harsh. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, of course. It certainly does inspire some passionate arguments though, depending on who you ask.


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

phoebespeople said:


> The other side of my argument is that dogs are carnivores, descended from wolves, who have evolved overn millions of years to eat raw animals. So to answer the question; what should I feed my dog?, the answer is, raw animals. It's a no-brainer. It's so simple.


I was watching The Dog Wisperer this weekend and Cesar was riding a long with Animal control. They were at a call where these to Sharpei mixes were found in a garage. The dogs were strays. What was interesting and even Cesar pointed it out. Because they were strays fending for themselves for food, they had returned to their "roots" for food. There was a dead half eaten rabbit on a mattress next to them. So the dogs had killed a rabbit for food. I didn't see any corn in the garage.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

BenTheMan said:


> If you don't trust your doctor or your vet to do these things, why are you patronizing them?


My vet recommends Science Diet to everyone.. I think this is a terrible recommendation.. why do I still take my dogs to this vet? Because he is the only vet in my area. If I had options, I would most definitely go for a Holistic vet, or at least someone who isn't so far out of the loop and thinks corn should be fed to a carnivore.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

BenTheMan said:


> This sounds like it's not true---do you have a source that confirms this, or are we to just take your word?
> 
> For example, in the link I've already posted, an ``Assistant Professor in Clinical nutrition'' from ``Cornell University College of Veterinary Medicine'' is quoted.
> 
> It seems that a professor in clinical nutrition is a bit superfluous if veterinarians only get a two week course in nutrition, no? Why would a Vet School employ a specialist in nutrition if they never planned on offering a nutrition class? And why would they need someone to teach it if they could just get the evil people from Science Diet to do the job for free?


 
I have talked to MY vet, who is among the top 10% of vets in this country according to the VMA. He's been practicing for nearly 20 years, his course work was two weeks on nutrition, his son's course work was the same (he's currently in college) BOTH were given the corporate spiel from Iams/SD. 

There are SPECIALTIES that you can take, the best is at Perdue ( I suspect that is what the Cornell Professior is about as well) and it blows away anything that a vet gets as standard information on nutrition (one of my best friends is a graduate of that program). 

My vet HAS taken his education further, He often reccomends holistic diets now, though he still sells SD prescriptions for those animals who respond to nothing else, however he will tell a client very quickly that it's not his first choice. When I went through hell with Angels demodex he actually told me about high protien grain free diets to battle the disease as well as adding Salmon oil and Ester C to build her immune system and control the inflamation. He encouraged me to research his advice on the internet. He is also the vet that helped me with the numerous allergies of a Bulldog I fostered, TELLING me to go to a limited ingredient diet instead of using the allergy formula he had sitting in his front office. I honestly wish everybody had my vet or one like him, there wouldn't be so much mis-information out there.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

phoebespeople said:


> The whole reason commercial dog food exists is to make money by disposing of waste products from human food production (rendered animal by-products and filler). Like it or not, that is what commecial pet food is made out of.


That definitely describes foods like Purina and Science Diet, but do you think foods like Orijen are the same? The ingredients below don't appear that way to me at all.

Fresh deboned chicken, chicken meal, turkey meal, russet potato, fresh deboned pacific salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), herring meal, sweet potato, peas, fresh deboned lake whitefish, fresh deboned northern walleye, chicken fat (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), chicken liver, salmon meal, fresh deboned turkey, fresh whole eggs, fresh deboned herring, sun-cured alfalfa, salmon oil, chicory root, dehydrated organic kelp, pumpkin, carrots, spinach, turnip greens, apples, cranberries, saskatoon berries, black currants, choline chloride, psyllium, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, sea salt, vitamin supplements (vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, vitamin C, thiamine


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## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

I personally feed raw to my pooch because *I* feel it's the best for *MY* dog. And it just so happens to be what she thrives on. With that said, it is not my place to tell someone what they should feed their dog if their dog is also thriving (even if on Kibble & Bits). The most I can do is offer my knowledge on dog food and provide them with websites and information. From that point on it would be up to them to decide what they want to feed their dog. After all, it is their responsibility not mine. I did manage to get my best friend (after MONTHS of educating and many questions from her) to get her new AB puppy Wellness. Her husky is on the cheap stuff but she does well with it. I think eventually she is going to introduce him to raw but she wants him to be older (he is only 12 weeks). In the end, what it *should* come down too is what the dog does best on.

Just my 2 cents!!


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## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Well people like to believe that they're feeding the best to their animals.


Pretty much it! Some are hard headed people that does not have a open minded! I'm grateful my family allow me to pick and chose what to feed the dogs 

I say they're waste of my time, force on people who wants to learn


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## Kat_Renee (May 6, 2009)

Rayne01 said:


> I have the same issue because my dog is picky and won't even touch certain foods. The only thing that I have found that she eats is Purina little bites. My vet told me that if thats what she likes, than thats what I should feed. My other two are on nutro, but it's getting so darn expensive that I'm afraid I'm going to have to change their food soon. Any suggestions on what to replace it with or what I could try with my picky little girl?
> 
> I have been considering feeding raw, but my fiance says that it is "out of the question"


I just switched my guy to Chicken Soup. He likes it and can be a picky eater. It's good food and i find it's not as expensive as other brands. The Ace store off of Millerville sells it. The 18 lb. bag was $25.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

BenTheMan said:


> I think it's fair to ask your vet if this is the case. If you suspect this, then why not try to find a new vet? And, if the process of vets getting kickbacks from pet food companies is so prevalent, why do they all recommend the same food?


The reason why many vets recommend the same food is because only a few companies do these kick back programs. I know Science Diet is one of the biggest in asking vets to cooperate by selling their food and giving them kickbacks.

Some brands like Orijen and Innova don't offer these programs or plans to vets at all that's why vets are not recommending them. Not every company needs to give vets benefits to do well and not all of them want to either.


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

Tankstar said:


> 15 "lessons" 2 are out of class placements and 2 are repeat type of courses. 1 is animal nutrition. in a semester with 7 different classes in it. it is obviously not a long period of time to learn all about dog food.
> https://myplace.durhamcollege.ca/durham/program.do?from=subject&programID=1379


Oh I'm sorry you'll have to do a bit better. From your source:



Tankstar's source said:


> This one-year, two-semester program is designed to prepare students with the knowledge and skills required to assist Registered Veterinary Technicians/Technologists and Veterinarians in the practice of veterinary science, as well as, work within other applied animal sciences such as grooming establishments, pet shops and shelters.


This is NOT a vet program, this is not even a vet technician program. This is a one year program for people who _assist vet technicians_. You do know the difference between vets and vet technicians, right? The second link is, again, a program to train vet technicians.

Now, I did look at the curricula for some actual four year vet programs in America (I didn't do the same nosing around for Canada), and I found this website for the program at Univ. of Illinois.

http://vetmed.illinois.edu/asa/curric.html

Now, the typical four year program contains a one semester course (3 credit hours, probably means it meets three times a week) called ``Principles of Animal Nutrition''. This is a core course requirement, which means everybody takes it. In the third year, there are another three hours of courses dedicated to animal nutrition, including a one hour course specializing in ``companion animal nutrition''.

Here's the curriculum at Colorado State University (pdf file):

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...-Ao4SmMxXZhhIhJpw&sig2=bzCCxrh33R2oBndkv1LU_Q

Again, there is a one semester course on animal nutrition, in the spring of the first year. Students at Colorado State get as much education on nutrition as they do on Immunology and Anesthesia, for example.

Also, I found this on asktheexperts.com:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Ask-Veterinarian-700/2009/2/Veterinarians-nutrition.htm

While it maybe true that some vets get a very short nutrition class, it doesn't seem to be the norm. And, apparently Science Diet doesn't run the show.



phoebespeople said:


> The whole reason commercial dog food exists is to make money by disposing of waste products from human food production (rendered animal by-products and filler).


Do you have any proof, _whatsoever_ of this opinion?



cshellenberger said:


> There are SPECIALTIES that you can take, the best is at Perdue ( I suspect that is what the Cornell Professior is about as well) and it blows away anything that a vet gets as standard information on nutrition (one of my best friends is a graduate of that program).


So, then, would you trust one of these specialists (like the one I quoted_) when it came to dog nutrition, even if he tells you something you disagree with?



Michiyo-Fir said:


> The reason why many vets recommend the same food is because only a few companies do these kick back programs. I know Science Diet is one of the biggest in asking vets to cooperate by selling their food and giving them kickbacks.


I hear people saying these things, but I have never seen anyone post any evidence of this.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I will say this. Good common sense tells ME that it is not healthy for any animal to live with no fresh food in the diet.

Just think about that for a moment. How can it be good and healthy for a dog to live with no fresh food in the diet?

The simple answer is that it can NOT.

I choose to feed my dogs fresh food. Grains are not a normal food for canids. Grains in dog foods cause a myriad of problems for dogs including ear, joint, allergy and skin issues.

Dogs are designed to eat meat, all one needs to do to understand that is look in the mouth. Grain based kibbles stick on the teeth and cause tartar buildup, mouth odor, gum disease, and eventual tooth loss in many dogs.

Vet offices in this country are filled with dogs who are demonstrating chronic problems that can be traced directly back to a poor diet of cooked extruded grain based kibble. 

I have over 15 years experience feeding raw diets to a wide age range of dogs. I would never go back to commercial diets, not ever.


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> I will say this. Good common sense tells ME that it is not healthy for any animal to live with no fresh food in the diet.
> 
> Just think about that for a moment. How can it be good and healthy for a dog to live with no fresh food in the diet?
> 
> The simple answer is that it can NOT.


This is a logical fallacy---appeal to common sense. I'm sure humans lived at one time on a raw food diet, back when our life span was about 20 years. Does that mean that it's necessarily good for us?


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

BenTheMan said:


> This is a logical fallacy---appeal to common sense. I'm sure humans lived at one time on a raw food diet, back when our life span was about 20 years. Does that mean that it's necessarily good for us?


I think you're logic is a little flawed...do you eat dried food all the time? No, you eat fresh. Would it be healthy for you to eat dried, processed food all the time? NO.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

BenTheMan said:


> This is a logical fallacy---appeal to common sense. I'm sure humans lived at one time on a raw food diet, back when our life span was about 20 years. Does that mean that it's necessarily good for us?


You cannot compare humans and dogs. Humans are omnivores with grinding molars, and a long intestinal tract that can break down plant materials. Humans can and do eat some raw meats (I enjoy some for sure now and then, along with fish and shell fish!), however, they are not designed for it as dogs are.

Dogs have a mouth full of razors for cutting off chunks of meat, and powerful jaws for breaking and eating bones. They have a 14' digestive tract that is designed to deal with and handle quantities of bacteria that would kill a human.

The logic that is flawed here is not mine.


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> I think you're logic is a little flawed...do you eat dried food all the time? No, you eat fresh. Would it be healthy for you to eat dried, processed food all the time? NO.


Would it be healthy for me to eat raw meat all the time, as our ancestors in Africa surely did?



RedyreRottweilers said:


> The logic that is flawed here is not mine.


I was just pointing out the logical fallacy in your argument, which is apparent---you may be right, but you cannot prove things by saying things that sound right to you.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BenTheMan said:


> Would it be healthy for me to eat raw meat all the time, as our ancestors in Africa surely did?
> 
> 
> 
> I was just pointing out the logical fallacy in your argument, which is apparent---you may be right, but you cannot prove things by saying things that sound right to you.




Who are these ancestors in Africa....and why were they eating raw meet all the time??


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

pugmom said:


> Who are these ancestors in Africa....and why were they eating raw meet all the time??


I guess we're sufficiently off-topic now, sohere.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Here are a few facts for you bentheman.

Humans are healthier on diets that contain less meat and fat and more vegetables and whole grains.

Dogs are healthier on diets that contain more raw meat and fat, and less vegetables and grains.

Fact: The human body is designed to consume mostly grains, fruits and vegetables. The structure of the teeth, mouth, and digestive tract upholds this fact, along with the higher incidences of cardio vascular and other chronic debilitating diseases in those who consume larger amounts of fat and meat.

Fact: Dogs are designed to eat raw meat, bones, and carrion, and are equipped with the mouth to dismember such, and the digestive tract and acids to consume it with impunity.

Fact: You are looking for an argument. 

Fact: I have bred, raised, trained, and shown dogs for over 15 years on a completely raw diet, with a certain level of success.

Fact: I am finished sparring with you.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

wkusigep460 said:


> So, what does everyone think about all of this? I can't seem to get it through to these people that...
> 1. There are good foods and there are bad foods.
> 2. Just because a vet recommends a certain food does not mean it's a good recommendation. You would like to think so, but there are a lot of politics behind what a vet recommends, just like a doctor recommending certain drugs to his patients.
> 3. A dog liking the food does not mean that it is a good choice.


You, nor most anyone else, needs to "get it through" to others. Personally, most people, unless they're asked anyway, don't care what others think, they're gonna feed whatever they believe is best. So why try?
Normally, I just state my opinion & my reasons & leave it up to them what they want to do. Personally, I've never fed or ever will feed SD or IAMS, in my opinion they're mostly just crappy, but that's my opinion only - & no, I don't have proof, except that my dogs are doing very well on their raw diet & I'm happy with that.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BenTheMan said:


> This is a logical fallacy---appeal to common sense. I'm sure humans lived at one time on a raw food diet, back when our life span was about 20 years. Does that mean that it's necessarily good for us?


Yes at that time it was "good" for humans....the Humans of that time period ...no it would not be good for us now because our dietary needs have changed over the past 250,000 years since we (humans) started use fire to cook our food....actually a lot of prehistory humans ate more then just meat...it just depended on what geographical location they lived 




BenTheMan said:


> I guess we're sufficiently off-topic now, sohere.


Got to love Junkipedia LOL


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## Foyerhawk (May 7, 2009)

I don't care what a vet thinks, because I feel certain that real meat is better for dogs than processed sugary corn and junk. Seems like common sense to me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Besides the fact that SD and Iams have approximately the same ingredient list as Dog Chow, but cost 2-3 times as much....nope, I'd never feed them to my dogs. If I had to go cheap, I'd save the $$$ and buy Dog Chow. Though I hope it never comes to that, I'd do it if I had to.

I really object to the foods like Kibbles 'n' Bits and Beneful, with all that sugar, high fructose corn syrup, high levels of artificial coloring, etc. People can argue all day about whether corn is good for dogs or not, but I really don't think very many people will seriously argue that eating a food that's high in sugar every day is truly good for a dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

BenTheMan said:


> This is a logical fallacy---appeal to common sense. I'm sure humans lived at one time on a raw food diet, back when our life span was about 20 years. Does that mean that it's necessarily good for us?


We humans still eat FRESH food, we are OMNIVORES so we have teeth that are designed to eat BOTH meat and vegetables. Oh, BTW, too many grains in OUR diet along with too many processed, high fat food is the reason WE have rampant obesity, our brains developed the way they did thanks to increased and better sources of PROTIEN. Our life spans started going up when we started hunting and stopped scavenging. It then dipped when we started farming and started climbing again as our species adapted to the change in diet. The same is true of dogs. However dogs are still a fairly primitive species and are far closer their ancestry than we are. There are certain nutrients dogs bodies cannot produce that we can (and vice versa). Their dietary needs are NOT comparable to ours at all other than the fact that the less processed a food is, the better it is nutritionally, that is a fact that is scientifically PROVEN. Therefore less processed foods will naturally be better (nutritionally) than more processed food. 

Yes we can live on highly processed nutrient fortified foods (like we have our dogs do), however it causes problems in both species (obesity, diabetes, heart problems, cancer). The dog foods you are talking about are extruded (fried) anyone with any nutritional sense knows that fried foods are harmful and higher in toxic fats (because the higher temps needed to fry the foods cause even good fat to become carcinogenic). The food I feed is BAKED, therefore the fats in that food are more likely to beneficial. The foods you are endorsing use rendered fats from rendering plants which often get their animals from those that have died on farms or been euthanized, meaning the possibility of diseased animals in the food source, my food uses NO rendered fats so that possibility is eliminated. Your food uses the undesirable parts of animals (bones, intestines, brain matter, ect) that is less nutritious and harder to digest to grind down to create their 'meat by products' mine uses human grade meats, from organic sources from the most nutritious and easy to digest parts of the animal. I also knowwhich animal the meat is coming from and therefore get to decide what goes into my animals diet. 

I know of dogs that are fed a raw diet that have NEVER needed a teeth cleaning (like kibble fed dogs need every year) because the teeth are naturally cleaned by bone. I feed a very high quality kibble, supplemented with RMB's (Raw Meaty Bones) my dogs need a dental every five years. which is pretty good. 

As far as a nutritionist telling me that Purina and the other crap brands are as good or better for my dog than Premium kibble, Raw or Home Cooked. I'd tell them to prove it with INDEPENDENT studies (not done by the dog food companies that train or pay them). 

I'm sorry, but your argument that nutritionally Inferior ingredients can make a nutritionally superior product is completely against all logic. It's like telling me a MacDonalds burger is just as nutritious as a Salmon fillet, Brown Rice Pilaf, and Green Beans Almondine. Both supply about the same amount of calories and will fill me up, but one is a heart attack waiting to happen and has little nutriional value and the other is heart healthy and will give me nearly a qurter of my daily needs nutritonally.


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> I'm sorry, but your argument that...


I'm sorry---where did I argue this? The only real argument that I've made in this thread is that people should either trust their vets, or find new vets. I've also given several references to show that the claim ``Vets don't know anything about nutrition'' is wrong and misleading, see here.

I've been trying, unsuccessfully, to find some sort of scientific evidence that one pet food is better than another. (See my first post in this thread, here.) What I have found is a bunch of people making wildly unsubstantiated claims, both in this thread, and all over the internet. I've also found that people seem to become highly offended when I ask them to actually provide some non-anecdotal evidence of their claims.

What's more, there doesn't seem to be a lot of reason in this discussion, as evidenced by statements such as:



> nutritionally Inferior ingredients can make a nutritionally superior product is completely against all logic.


I've seen no evidence to indicate that this is true. Who's logic? My logic? My vet's logic? Or your logic? Disregarding something out of hand because it doesn't seem right to you is a decision that you make on faith, and not for some other objective reason. This may very well be the case, but I haven't seen, nor has anyone provided, some unbiased source which substantiates this claim.

For example, we know that salmon is healthier for people than hamburgers because there are studies that have been done, by scientists, involving real people. Big studies, repeated by different groups of scientists. If you ask your doctor ``Hey doctor, should I eat more salmon and less McDonalds'', the doctor will say ``You should eat more salmon.'' If you ask a bunch of doctors the same question, it's probably a good bet that most of those doctors will say that you should be eating more salmon. This is because your doctor has a vested interest in your health, and your doctor actually pays attention to the results of scientific studies. This is coupled with the fact that your doctor spent a long time in school, studying many different facets of the human body, reading papers about human physiology, and attending lectures about your body chemistry. 

On the other hand, if I ask my vet ``What food should I feed my dog?'' and my vet says ``Brand X'', why should I not listen to her? Why should I not trust that she has the best interest of my pet in mind when making this recommendation?

Finally, 



> As far as a nutritionist telling me that Purina and the other crap brands are as good or better for my dog than Premium kibble, Raw or Home Cooked. I'd tell them to prove it with INDEPENDENT studies (not done by the dog food companies that train or pay them).


Why is it so offensive to demand the same proof of boutique pet foods?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

So have your found no independent studies that prove one food over the other?....or......no studies at all ?


I would like to see what you have found


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

BenTheMan said:


> This is a logical fallacy---appeal to common sense. I'm sure humans lived at one time on a raw food diet, back when our life span was about 20 years. Does that mean that it's necessarily good for us?


Dogs have only recently been eating dog food. dog food is a relativily new "invention" only about 70ish years old. 75 years ago fido was eatting meat and junk that the family threw for him, left overs.

where do you in the wilf a wolf, fox ect gran some corn and eat it? or some wheat?

where humans have been doing small body changes over the past 100's of years to acustom ourselves with new designed foods. 


BenTheMan said:


> I'm sorry---where did I argue this? The only real argument that I've made in this thread is that people should either trust their vets, or find new vets. On the other hand, if I ask my vet ``What food should I feed my dog?'' and my vet says ``Brand X'', why should I not listen to her? Why should I not trust that she has the best interest of my pet in mind when making this recommendation?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just becuase you dont agree with a vet over somthing, doesnt mean you shouldnt trust them over other aspects of your dogs health.

My old vet was against dogs chewin bones to help keep teeth clean "will break their teeth she said", sure some bones will, espeacially if you have a heavy chewer. but other bones are fragile and easy to break apart. I didnt agree with her, and continue to feed raw bones to the dog. 

She was a good vet at what she knew. but int he end I did make a switch to a even better vet who I trust even more. but if I didnt find this new vet (only reason why i switched becuase it was more convinent for me as I work under the vets office)

why should you only listen to her? why not take other opnions as well.

I wrote this on another forum about dog food. my own expierence. basiclly l roy, purina, kibbles and bits and IAMs against Orijen a very good dog food.

I have seen MAJOR differences between my curent dog on a good brand and my former dogs an terrible brands. and a _OK_ brand (Purina one)



> what I have noticed with Blaze is a 180. white teeth still at age 6 (while the past 3 dogs teeth were all already rotten or on their way to it) lovley coat, hardly sheds, no dog odour, hardly ever farts (last dogs, farted lots, dull coats and smelt bad) eats a small amount (past dogs ate tons) lots of energy (past dogs were energetic, but not as much as Blaze) good weight, easy to keep and easy to loose (past dogs struggled with lossing weight and 1 dog struggled to gain weight, looked like we starved her, she was literally skin and bones) doesnt have watery, tear stained face (past dogs did)


g it didnt quote my vet assit. stuff.

vet addits. do lots of stuff. they do needles, small procedures, adminster IV's, pills, ect. so why shouldnt THEY be informed on nutrition as well? they do alot of grunt work, deal with majority of people and questions.


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## wkusigep460 (Jun 5, 2009)

Original poster here...glad I could spark some interesting comments, and no so interesting ones. 

First of all, who else thinks that BentheMan must be an employee of SD, Pedigree, or Purina?...that is to say Colgate-Palmolive, Mars, and Nestle. Yes, many of the low-grade (you heard me BentheMan, LOW grade) dog foods are owned by other companies that make human products, and thus, have leftovers. "What should we do with these leftovers to make more profit?" they ask themselves. "Hmm, I know," says the corporate giant, "we can turn it all into dog food." Genius!...for them.

Give it up Ben, you are indeed looking for a fight. I can understand why me and so many others are very adamant about feeding their dogs foods such as NB, Wellness, etc. (we want to feed our dear companions the best there is to offer), but let me ask you this...why are YOU so adamant about the commercial dog foods? What personally drives you to become so defensive when it comes to SD, Pedigree, Purina, etc? 

You keep asking for proof. Where is your beloved proof to contradict our beliefs? Believe it or not, the internet has become a vast source of GOOD information. Welcome to the 21st century, buddy.


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

wkusigep460 said:


> First of all, who else thinks that BentheMan must be an employee of SD, Pedigree, or Purina?...that is to say Colgate-Palmolive, Mars, and Nestle.


Glad you brought it up, because I was actually thinking the same thing!!


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

pugmom said:


> So have your found no independent studies that prove one food over the other?....or......no studies at all ?
> 
> 
> I would like to see what you have found


Hi pugmom---

I haven't found anything, no. There are a few websites which seem to be less biased than others. The best reference I have seen is this one: http://www.consumersearch.com/dog-food. They look at reviews all over the internet, and make a recommendation based on those reviews. I wouldn't say that this is a _completely unbiased_ view, but because they look at so many different websites, it seems that they average over the bias, so to speak.

Anyway, the top rated food is Orijen. Again, the rating isn't based on any objective data, just a bunch of product reviews on the internet.



Tankstar said:


> where do you in the wilf a wolf, fox ect gran some corn and eat it? or some wheat?


Actually, while deer hunting in South Texas, I have seen coyotes eating corn that we leave out for the deer.



> vet addits. do lots of stuff. they do needles, small procedures, adminster IV's, pills, ect. so why shouldnt THEY be informed on nutrition as well? they do alot of grunt work, deal with majority of people and questions.


That wasn't the claim. Specifically, cshellenberger said



cshellenberger said:


> Veterinarians get a whole two weeks of canine nutrition in vet school, the educational material is supplied by Science Diet or Iams.


I asked for some sort of proof of this claim, which you attempted to provide. (For the record, no one else has even attempted to try to show that the claim is true, yet they continue to repeat it.) What you showed me was that, in a 1-2 year classes, veterinary assistants get some nutrition training. How much nutrition training they get isn't clear, but that doesn't really matter.

On the other hand, I showed you three references (including two curricula from actual, four year vet schools) to show you that this is blatantly wrong, and misleading claim---vets typically have 1-2 classes on nutrition, which is as much education as they get on some other crucial facets of animal biology. Do you disagree that the sources I've showed you are valid? Can you show some other data that proves that cshellenberger's claim is true?



wkusigep460 said:


> First of all, who else thinks that BentheMan must be an employee of SD, Pedigree, or Purina?...that is to say Colgate-Palmolive, Mars, and Nestle. Yes, many of the low-grade (you heard me BentheMan, LOW grade) dog foods are owned by other companies that make human products, and thus, have leftovers. "What should we do with these leftovers to make more profit?" they ask themselves. "Hmm, I know," says the corporate giant, "we can turn it all into dog food." Genius!...for them.


I abandoned such _ad hominem_ debating tactics before I got to high school, but apparently not everyone got the memo 



> but let me ask you this...why are YOU so adamant about the commercial dog foods? What personally drives you to become so defensive when it comes to SD, Pedigree, Purina, etc?


Adamant? Can you quote for me where, in this thread, I've ever said anything to endorse any particular dog food? I did say, on the first page



bentheman said:


> Why would you be afraid to switch to Purina? Probably the largest fraction of dogs in the US are eating Purina or Pedigree, and they seem to be doing pretty well.


Outside of this, which isn't an endorsement at all, have I ever said anything in this thread to make you think that I am endorsing a particular dog food over another one?

And for the record---it doesn't see like I'm the defensive one 



> You keep asking for proof. Where is your beloved proof to contradict our beliefs? Believe it or not, the internet has become a vast source of GOOD information. Welcome to the 21st century, buddy.


Beloved proof. I love it! But, I'm sorry if I'm a bit dense---I don't know what you're getting at here. Are you making fun of me for asking for some sort of unbiased, scientific evidence about dog foods? Or are you making fun of me for distrusting what I read on the internet? Or are you frustrated with me because I don't take what people tell me as some Allah-given doctrine?

If you're going to use insults as a method of debate, you really should learn how to do a good job of it


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I made a post a few days ago in this thread but now it seems to be gone?? I guess I will make it again.

This is research that certain pet foods contain certain chemicals/preservatives that are harmful to cats and dogs. Although this article is directed at all commercial pet foods being bad, I believe it counts as saying some food are better than others by saying that these 'bad' foods have used certain things like cyanuric acid, or melamine. So we assume that foods without these preservatives/chemicals are not as 'bad.' 

According to the sources here, some pet food companies put in melamine on purpose to make the food look like there is more protein. And studies have shown that malamine and cyanuric acid causes renal failure in cats and dogs. So I would think companies that use deliberately or purchase from contaminated supplies are not to be trusted.

This is quite a long article quoting different sources, read it yourself if you like.

Compiled Data


Also, my dog recently ate a few kernels of boiled corn off the floor while we were cooking and the next day, she pooped them out completely whole and undigested. Which makes me question food with corn in it, if my dog can't digest the corn she 'stole' off the ground, what reasons do I have to think that corn meal can be digested by her?


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

To refer to the original thread title, people insist because they're passionate about their dogs and what they eat. I don't think it's a bad thing to have a discussion. Everyone has valid points. If you go to a veterinarian, you would hope that you could trust their knowledge and experience. just as you would your own doctor. However, even your own doctor isn't trained much in nutrition. I personally, would love to go to an integrative veterinarian but for one, there is no such vet where I live and two, it would be too expensive to see one. I go to a vet where I work. I don't necessarily agree with their opinions on what I feed my dog and they don't necessarily agree with my opinions. So I just have to take all the knowledge that I get from them and from what I read and make a decision. 

I personally, don't feed Science Diet, Medi-cal, Royal Canin or the grocery store brands. I don't like their ingredients, I don't like their marketing, nor their quality control. Most of these brands were part of the food recalls and some have had more than others (e.g. Nutro). So how can I trust a company that doesn't know where their ingredients come from? I did feed a couple of cans of c/d a while ago because my dog had crystals and her poop was bigger than her. So what exactly is she not digesting? Sure these companies like Purina and Hills have the resources to do the research but are they using only the research which supports what they want to market? I guess I'd have to read some of it to really know. 

I just saw a show on Pet food called "A Dog's Breakfast". They had a sample of a low end food and a sample of a premium food sent to a lab where it was analyzed. They determined that both foods had similar nutrient breakdowns as in protein, carbs and fat. They also made a dog food out of old leather boots, motor oil and wood shavings. This 'food' also had similar protein, carb and fat content. So, in theory, each food could be eaten by your dog but how nutritious would they be? Technically, your dog would survive on the first two but probably not on the leather food. But does it really matter that the nutrient breakdown is the same or is it the bioavailability of those nutrients the real issue? Can a dog thrive on corn, soy and wheat or just survive? Would a dog thrive more on chicken, beef and fish? Take a cat for example. They are obligate carnivores so they need meat to survive. They derive their energy from protein, not carbs. So eating a food with grains or starches would be useless to a cat. I don't know if there are any studies on the bioavailability of nutrients from various sources but it would be interesting to know if a dog would derive more or less nutrients depending on the source.

I wish that there were long term studies comparing the different diets available to dogs. Unfortunately, this type of research takes a back seat in terms of funding when you consider there are more pressing issues. 

I'm sure that when I decided to feed my dog kibble, (I feed her raw now), I was mislead by the 'premium' and 'human-grade' ingredients that the companies claimed were in the food. Their ingredients list may look more impressive but could this just be a marketing trick to sway the discriminate consumer? Could be... I mean, in this day and age, more humans are going the natural route, using food as a means to good health and longevity. And more and more, our pets are becoming part of our family rather than a guard or property. So it would follow that pet food companies would jump on this and produce a product that is 'natural' and 'organic' and 'holistic'. 

So whether you buy a grocery store brand, a veterinary brand or a premium brand, you are being targeted by those marketers. You feed what you can afford and what you think is best for your dog. Honestly, I love these threads on dog food because there are so many different points of view and I learn more from each one. So debate on!!!


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## BenTheMan (Aug 18, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> This is quite a long article quoting different sources, read it yourself if you like.


Thank you for this link!



> Also, my dog recently ate a few kernels of boiled corn off the floor while we were cooking and the next day, she pooped them out completely whole and undigested. Which makes me question food with corn in it, if my dog can't digest the corn she 'stole' off the ground, what reasons do I have to think that corn meal can be digested by her?


Haven't you ever noticed the same in...ahem..._your_ poop? It doesn't automatically mean that corn is _bad_ for you, even if it shows up undigested in your poop.


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## tunisianswife (Aug 11, 2009)

Like you Mike, I too was completely ignorant of the differences and have read so much that has helped me to make wise choices with much better results. I have stood on my head for 6 yrs trying to get mine to eat and have tried everything from the highly promoted on tv to the el cheapo. I have switched and use wellness, ToTW, blue buffalo, and a bit cheaper is nature's recipe that my dogs love.

I see a huge difference in their stool consistency, their coats are shinier, and they have stopped itching and scratching, and chewing their paws.

does it make someone a 'bad' person if they simply can't afford anything different than what can be found in walmart or the grocery? no. A person should not feel guilt if they simply can't afford it.

The problem I have is how affective marketing can be to influence one's purchasing decision. How much $ in ad campaigns has IAMS, Eukanuba(not to mention they are a huge sponsor of dog shows), Purina, Science Diet spent while 'telling' us that this is the best for our dogs? Therefore, some will believe that this is the pan ultimum and no other can compare. That is exactly what these companies want. 

anywhoo, I also feed some raw, egg, yogurt, cottage cheese, some cooked meats as well to their diet.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

My question is then.....if there are no studies one way or the other ....then how do Vets recommend one food over the other?....what are they learning from?

Also maybe you should ask your vet how they came to conclusion to support what ever they personally recommend....maybe your vet will have the written prof you are looking for ?


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

tunisianswife said:


> Like you Mike, I too was completely ignorant of the differences and have read so much that has helped me to make wise choices with much better results. I have stood on my head for 6 yrs trying to get mine to eat and have tried everything from the highly promoted on tv to the el cheapo. I have switched and use wellness, ToTW, blue buffalo, and a bit cheaper is nature's recipe that my dogs love.
> 
> I see a huge difference in their stool consistency, their coats are shinier, and they have stopped itching and scratching, and chewing their paws.
> 
> ...


Exactly. all the marketing is just to tell people to food is great. but how is it great?

I feel so sad for my boyfriends parents dog. she suffers terrible allergies, is always chewing on her back and legs, no shine to her coat, tear stains galor, rotting teeth ect. yet she has been on pedigree her whole life, and BF's mom says she does fine on it. She clearly doesnt. they dont understand my logic, as Im nto a vet. nd the vet has told them pedigree is a fine food. It is obviously not working for them. Im babysitting the poor dog right now and all I see her do is scratch scratch scratch. And yes she has no fleas and is UTD on all flea meds.

So why does this seemingly great vet recomended food make her scratch like a crazy? I assume all those grains are not working well for her at all.

when Blaze was on, ol' roy, IAMs and purina (to mention a few gross-ok brands) he was the same. switch him to a grainless dog food, or minimal gran food and he does awsome.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

flipgirl said:


> I just saw a show on Pet food called "A Dog's Breakfast". They had a sample of a low end food and a sample of a premium food sent to a lab where it was analyzed. They determined that both foods had similar nutrient breakdowns as in protein, carbs and fat. They also made a dog food out of old leather boots, motor oil and wood shavings. This 'food' also had similar protein, carb and fat content. So, in theory, each food could be eaten by your dog but how nutritious would they be? Technically, your dog would survive on the first two but probably not on the leather food. But does it really matter that the nutrient breakdown is the same or is it the bioavailability of those nutrients the real issue? Can a dog thrive on corn, soy and wheat or just survive? Would a dog thrive more on chicken, beef and fish? Take a cat for example. They are obligate carnivores so they need meat to survive. They derive their energy from protein, not carbs. So eating a food with grains or starches would be useless to a cat. I don't know if there are any studies on the bioavailability of nutrients from various sources but it would be interesting to know if a dog would derive more or less nutrients depending on the source.


Thank you! I would love to have this information, is it online somewhere?


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Teela Brown said:


> LOL well...like religion and politics...there are just some things you don't talk about!
> 
> Dog food is apparently one of them!


Yup lol


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

Kathyy said:


> Thank you! I would love to have this information, is it online somewhere?


I actually saw that documentary as well.

This is the only thing that I found on-line about it.

http://www.cbc.ca/doczone/dogsbreakfast.html

Actually found the documentary. here it is.

http://www.viddler.com/explore/jennifergoodwin/videos/4/


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

The documentary was on CBC - the show was called Doc Zone and the segment was called 'Pet Food: A Dog's Breakfast" Here's the url to watch it online: www.cbc.ca/doczone/dogsbreakfast.html. 

If your vet knows so much about pet food, ask them why they're good for your pet. What are the ingredients for and what makes them good for your dog or cat? I'm sure you'll get an answer that is just as canned as dog food. As far as veterinary care goes, a vet is the person to go to but when it comes to nutrition, I find them to be a limited resource. I know there are some exceptions but this tends to be the rule.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

there's this thing..bioavailability.


different digestive systems are built to absorb different nutrients at differing rates dependant on environmentally based adaptations to readily available food sources.

this is something that is variant even within species. generally speaking, dogs fall under the category of carnivore..they absorb nutrients much easier from meat based protein sources as opposed to plant based protein sources and gain energy much easier from animal fats as opposed to plant based carbohydrates. the shorter digestive tract of the carnivore is built for this. 

Plant based nutrition is contained within hard cells walls that take much more time to break down. that's what cows have multiple stomachs and very long digestive tracts. 

all that is basic biology. 

so it stands to reason that a food with more animal based nutrients is more suitable for animals who are primarily carnivorous. dogs are primarily carnivorous. they do eat some plants in the natural environment but this is not necessarily for straight up nutritional purposes. things like digestive issues, availability of food sources(some nutrition is better than no nutrition in locations where game is scarce or non existent) and simple whimsy/curiousity(dogs mouths function as the equivalent to our hands..the main body of their sensory intake is taste/smell while ours is touch/see) come into play.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Thank you for the link. Very nice program. Interesting that cooking food for your dog is dangerous according to pet food makers. Huh? Are we not supposed to cook for ourselves? Beyond bizarre.


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

Kathyy said:


> Thank you for the link. Very nice program. Interesting that cooking food for your dog is dangerous according to pet food makers. Huh? Are we not supposed to cook for ourselves? Beyond bizarre.


I think the reason they stated that it was "dangerous" to cook for your dog is because some people wouldn't research what it is that a dog would need in their diet.

I re-watched the documentary today, and I am really considering adding raw ingredients to both Sadie and Kina's diet as well as their kibble.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Try not to feed kibble and raw at the same time though as both have different digesting times - kibble stays in the stomach much longer than raw so you wouldn't want the raw food fermenting in your dog's stomach. Feed kibble in the am and raw at night or vice versa.

Thanks Zim for mentioning bioavailability again. I think that is a huge part of deciding what food to feed your dog. 

Kathyy, I thought it was interesting too that the show mentioned that cooking for your dog was dangerous because it might not be complete and balanced for your dog. Kibble isn't that old an invention so I guess before kibble, all dogs were fed incomplete and unbalanced diets. I don't know any statistics but did dogs have diabetes, IBD and pancreatitis before kibble's time?


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

flipgirl said:


> Try not to feed kibble and raw at the same time though as both have different digesting times - kibble stays in the stomach much longer than raw so you wouldn't want the raw food fermenting in your dog's stomach. Feed kibble in the am and raw at night or vice versa.


Thanks Flipgirl. I plan on doing a lot of reading prior to introducing raw into their diet.



flipgirl said:


> Kibble isn't that old an invention so I guess before kibble, all dogs were fed incomplete and unbalanced diets. I don't know any statistics but did dogs have diabetes, IBD and pancreatitis before kibble's time?


That woudl be very interesting to know.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> there's this thing..bioavailability.
> 
> 
> different digestive systems are built to absorb different nutrients at differing rates dependant on environmentally based adaptations to readily available food sources.
> ...


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## Schnauzerlvr (May 20, 2008)

I would hate to tell Bradley that I took my Mini Schnauzer to the vet yesterday because he was throwing up and refusing to eat and through much discussion and me asking him if he thought the food was too fatty, if so, what percentage should I keep the food at? he advised me that he is not a nutritionist and didnt know.. but sure didn't stop him from trying to sell science diet... I apologized ahead of time and told him that food was crap and that I would do research on my own.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

I have no hard proof but the following is from my experience. 

Where I live (south Florida) everything is about the MONEY! A lot of vets and doctors become vets and doctors for the salaries. Vet in particular down here, run their own practices. Saying that, it is safe to say that they are running a small business and they obviously enjoy their profit for themselves and for their families. So even if they have tremendous knowledge on nutrition they may still try to sell you the SD (or whatever brand) they carry. I have seen this especially on vet offices that have Purina posters all over their walls.

In summary, in my experience, vets recommend the "bad" brands to make money not because of its nutritional value.


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

Im going to respond to the original post...if thats ok 

Mike, 

Natural Balance is a good food. The only reservations I have with the food is that it is a little grain heavy and meat light. They, however, are honest about this fact--even check out the labels, it doesnt say Duck and Potato--it says Potato and Duck. However, Natural balance is an excellent grain inclusive food. Some owners supplement with extra protein. It is also a great brand for dogs with allergies, as they have an allergy food. Their food is corn free, by product free (which is more than "left overs" sadly), and is a healthy well thought out food. It is also a decent price point within thhe group. 

Dogs are opportunistic carnivores which means that they are meant to eat meat as their main food source. The opportunistic part comes in where when they come across something edible, they will often eat it--just as they will eat the whole animal--stomach included which may have grains in it. While not necessarily needed, grains are not harmful to dogs--especially good grains. Unfortunately, corn is cheap (as compared to meat and some other grains) and in abundant supply, and it can sustain a dog. The difference here is sustain and thrive. Feeding a grocery brand or a brand like Euk (which really is just overpriced grocery), is not going to really hurt your dog. Just like if I ate bacon everyday for dinner, it wouldnt really hurt me. It might however, cause me to become overweight or diabetic, or give me high cholesterol. Think of it in human terms, some people can drink, smoke, and eat red meat every day of their lives and live to be a 100. Others can exercise, eat healthy, and drop dead of a heart attack at 40. It comes down to genes. For example, my Daisy is a JRT, and she had a great coat, great everything, and when I switcher her to higher quality foods, she did have smaller poops and much less eye gunk (almost none), and maybe a little bit more sheen, but overall I didnt see much change. Then there is Salvatore, my little Chihuahua Mix. He came to me with a rough, dry, coarse dull coat literally covered in dandruff, and no belly fur. After 3 weeks on higher quality food, he looked like a different dog. His coat became soft and shiny, his dandruff disappeared, and he grew in a thick coat of belly hair. It was an incredible change--one that even impressed my vet, who previously didnt think there was much difference between foods. I brought her in the cut outs of 2 bags of food, and she was also surprised by the difference in ingredients. It is true that a large percentage of the US feeds grocery and as your poster put it "they seem to be doing fine"--well thats true, let me remind you, a large percentage of the US (humans) are hugely overweight, consuming fast food crap in large quantities, and are doing just fine too. Sure some get diabetes or heart disease, some dont. Some dogs when they get old develop health issues, some dont. It comes down to genes. If you are one of the lucky one who can smoke and eat bacon all day long and live to be 100 --more power to you! But what if you are the type who runs marathons, eats salads, and drops dead of a heart attack at 40? How do you know? We can't see our genes, we can't know the inside, we can only see the outside, the outer indicators --which in some cases are obvious as it was with Sal, and sometimes are not, as it was with Daisy. I dont know what kind of genes my dogs have, but Im not willing to just hope they are the lucky ones, when I know I can at least feel good personally about giving them something that is breed specific and healthy for them. Thats all I can do, and it makes me feel good knowing Im doing it. 

There is a changing tide out there though, and a lot of vets are becoming more versed in canine education. One poster asked why would you trust your vet if you dont trust him for the food. Well, theres lots of answer. My mom still goes to her ancient doc, who tells her some crazy stuff, but she trusts him. Would I go to him for nutrition advice? ofcourse not. Some courses at vet school are taught by Hills, and some are taught by both Hills and vets. It probably depends on where you go, how much time your school spent on nutrition, and who you learned from. Call around, a lot of vets are bbecoming more versed in nutrition, and you have to remember, some are vary of things like raw feeding not b/c they dislike raw, but merely b/c they fear their patient's owners won't do it correctly. Raw for example is a very specific feeding method and if done incorrectly would risk the dog's health. Lastly, vets are people. I know some good human doctors, and I know some bad human doctors. I know some who are docs b/c they love the profession and want to do good, and I know some who seem to be only out to make a buck. People are human, as are vets. 

Mike, you can't convince everyone. As long as corn is cheap, and sold in bulk, and grocery is cheaper, and some vets endorse it, you will always come up against adverse opinions. No one wants to think that they are doing bad by their dog. However, I do believe that there is a slow change coming. More and more of the higher quality brands are coming out and becoming popular---case in point Wellness is now sold at those big box stores like petco or petsmart or whatever. A good number of vets are getting better training it appears, and Ive heard more in recent years of vets talking about the higher quality foods. Some day it may change, but until then you can just help people who want to be helped, and know that you are doing something great for your doxie. 

Personally, Wellness versus NB is an easy choice for me, while both are good, Id go Wellness all the way. It is just as good in terms of a grain inclusive food, and it is not as grain heavy as the NB. Wellness also has an allergy line of foods, and a grain free (Core) which I am quite fond of. There are lots of good brands, Natura (Evo, Innova, California Naturals), Fromm, Solid Gold, Natures Variety (instinct and prairie), Origen, Natural balance, etc. There are also some non-break the bank brands that are pretty decent like Kirklands (which is DIamond Naturals--regular diamond is crap, but Diamond Naturals isnt too terrible)--and that is like $20 for a 40lb bag. Canidae is ok, granted they got really grain heavy recently and added a ton of rice, but hey the economy hurts everyone. Depending on the area, California Naturals isnt that bad on price either, and Ive actually seen Innova pretty reasonably priced in certain areas. The other consideration when it comes to price is how nutrient dense the food is. While someone might be on their second bag of Beneful, I would still be on my first bag of a higher quality food. So sure, it is more $ up front, but over time, it isnt much different. I did the math once, Ill see if I can find it, but I compared Wellness Core to Beneful for feeding 4 little dogs, and it came out to about $5-7 dollars more a month. To me, that is worth it. However, my finances arent everyones, and feeding ANY food is better than NO food. 

In general you are right. You want a food with no byproducts, no corn, no bht, no bha, no digest, no tallow, no lard, no Sugar, no Sorbitol, no Cane Molasses, no Fructose, no Corn Syrup, no Ethoxyquin, no Propyl Gallate (aka Gallic Acid or Propyl Ester), no Menadione (also known as Dimethyl-Pyrimidinol Bisulfate, Menadione Dimethyl-Pyrimidinol Bisulfite, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate Complex, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, and Vitamin K3).

It is the rumor that if meat is the first ingredient you are good. Well, thats a start, but you arent "good." all animals are made up of mostly water, and water is heavy. The ingredients on all bags of dog food are listed by weight. Once the chicken is cooked and all that water is taken out, the chicken weighs a whole lot less. So in reality, there is much less chicken meat in the food than there is of the other first 5 (or so) ingredients. Having a meat MEAL (with water take out) listed first is much better. 

Every dog is different. Some have allergies (corn is a common allergen for dogs), some dont. Some are blessed with great genes, some aren't. Some will do great one on food, and not on another. 

If you think your dog is doing great on the NB, then stick with it. But some people do do a rotational diet, changing foods every bag, or every few bags, and it could be a good way to try out a few brands and see which is the best match for your doxie. Id suggest the Wellness, the Wellness Core, maybe Evo, or Solid Gold since they are usually pretty easy to find. Mine do great on the Core, but have done well on the others too. For example I once fed Taste of the Wild (long story, I dont anymore, its a "maybe it has Ethoxyquin in it,maybe it doesnt so why risk it when they love the Core just as much" issue). On TOTW Daisy had super small poops, but the other dogs had regular poops. On Core Daisy has larger poops and the other three have tinier poops. Different dogs! 

Ill post an article a good friend wrote later ---we all got very into canine nutrition about the same time, and it is very well written.


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

INTRODUCTION
You’re probably reading this because you’ve just learned the dog food you are feeding your dog is garbage or maybe you’re just reading this to get some more info. Maybe you’ve been looking for a new food but you just don’t know how to get started. What ever the case may be this is a guide to help you pick out a good healthy food for your dog.

First, dogs are carnivores. See those sharp teeth they have? Those are for crunching bones and tearing flesh. If dogs were meant to eat lots of grains, fruits, and veggies they’d have flat molars like humans and bears. Remember learning about the Brontosaurus and the Tyrannosaurus Rex? The main differences between the two dinosaurs were their teeth and diet. The Brontosaurus had flat teeth for eating and grinding plants, and the T-Rex had sharp teeth for eating meat. Dogs have the same kind of teeth as the T-Rex did. They are carnivores, not herbivores or omnivores. Carnivores need MEAT, not a bunch of plants. Okay, now we have that out of the way.

HOW TO PICK A MEATY KIBBLE
The first step in picking out a wholesome kibble is to make sure there is plenty of meat in the food. For example, if chicken is listed as the first ingredient and there is no other meat listed, there isn’t enough meat in the food. Here’s why; all animals are made up of mostly water, and water is heavy. The ingredients on all bags of dog food are listed by weight. Once the chicken is cooked and all that water is taken out, the chicken weighs a whole lot less. So in reality, there is much less chicken meat in the food than there is of the other first 5 (or so) ingredients.

If chicken meal is listed as the first ingredient there is a probably good amount of meat in the food. Chicken meal is regular ole chicken meat that’s already been cooked and its water has been taken out. You can think of chicken meal as a cousin to chicken jerky. Since it’s already been cooked the weight of the chicken meal won’t change during processing.

If you don’t quite catch the meaning of that, here’s an analogy to help out a little. Imagine the difference between one balloon filled with water that weighs 3 pounds, and 3 pounds worth of empty balloons. You have to have a lot of empty balloons to make three pounds right? Well that’s how it is with chicken and chicken meal. Chicken is full of water just like the water balloon. Once they cook the 3 pounds worth chicken to make kibble the chicken shrinks because all the water is out of it. It’s like if you were to empty the water balloon. The amount of meat is hardly anything compared to already cooked 3 pounds of chicken meal, and the size of the empty water balloon is nothing compared to the 3 pounds of the empties.

Ideally you want a food that has both a whole meat and a meat meal. Although a meat meal (like chicken meal, beef meal, lamb meal, salmon meal, etc) is a good thing to find on your ingredient list, that stuff is overly cooked. Since it has spent so much time in the oven at really high temperatures, it has a lot of the nutrition cooked out of it. A regular meat source (like chicken, beef, lamb, salmon, etc) would have a more vitamins and minerals compared to the meal form, but a meal provides a whole lot of meat based protein. That’s why it’s good to have both.

Take a moment to look at the guaranteed analysis of the dog food. The guaranteed analysis will help you get a better idea of the amount of meat (protein) in the food. Some foods have as little as 18% protein, and some as much as 42% protein. You want at least 21%. That’s as low as one should go. Even at that level you should probably add fresh meat to the kibble. If you find a kibble that has a few meats and meat meals in the first few ingredients and 35% protein, you’ve probably found a good food. Remember that carnivores need meat! I can’t stress that enough.

There is a lot of hoopla about high protein levels causing liver and kidney damage to dogs. That’s pure bologna. Right now, there is no safe upper limit established for the percentage of protein in dog food. This means that tests so far show that no damage has been caused by dogs eating high protein (unless pre-existing damage or failure exists). The tests that originally showed damage from high protein were done on rats and the results were inferred to be the same for dogs. That inference however, makes no sense because dogs and rats are biologically different. That’s like comparing apples to machine guns. Not the same whatsoever.


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

BY-PRODUCTS AND UGLY STUFF
Now, you might scratching your head and wondering why the label on the back of the bag of your dog food doesn’t actually say chicken or chicken meal but says chicken by-product meal. Well, as it turns out you haven’t been feeding your dog much meat.

SPECIFIED MEAT BY-PRODUCTS
The organization who is in charge of dog food, the AAFCO, thinks it is okay for your dog to eat by-products. Well, they are half right. Specified meat by-products are the dry, ground, rendered, parts of slaughtered animals. Depending on the animal (chicken, beef, pork, salmon, etc) these by-products include heads, necks, feet, intestines, bones, undeveloped eggs, connective tissues, and a whole slew of other stuff left over from human processing. If your dog was feral and had to hunt for herself this is all stuff she’d eat anyway, so no biggie right? Not really. Dogs need meat to be their healthiest. So if the kibble doesn’t list a meat (like chicken or beef) or a meat meal (like salmon meal or lamb meal) and only has meat by-products, you aren’t giving your pet carnivore much meat.

UNSPECIFICED MEAT PRODUCTS
Okay, now some of you are going “Hey, my bag of food doesn’t even mention a specific animal. What gives?” If your bag of food has ingredients like poultry meal, fish meal, meat meal, liver meal, meat and bone meal, etc it’s best to just throw that food away right now. There is no telling what kind of animals are in that food. There could raccoon road kill, euthanized horses, or even cats and dogs in that food. That’s right! There are no laws preventing companion animals being made into pet food. As sick as that is, it’s the truth.


CARBOHYDRATES
Okay so you’ve found a food that has a good amount of meat without any uglies in it. Now what do you do? You need to take a second to look over the carbohydrate sources in the food. There are many different sources of carbohydrates used in kibble. You want a food that uses WHOLE forms of carbohydrates. Whole forms of carbs have more nutritional value than fragments. The main reason dog food makers use fragments is to beef up the protein levels in the food. There isn’t enough protein in the food because there isn’t any meat.

Here’s some examples of whole vs. fragment:
White Rice is whole, Brewers Rice is a fragment.
Potato is whole, Potato Product is a fragment.
Oatmeal is whole, Oat Hulls are fragments.

Do you see where I’m going with this? If there are extra words attached to the name of the carb more often than not, it’s a fragment. Besides, would you eat something called Potato Product? I think not.

If there is multiple carbohydrate sources in the food keep in mind that all those different carbs add up. If there are only one or two meat sources listed and five carbohydrate sources, there is a possibility that there are more carbs than meat in the food. Looking at the guaranteed analysis for protein levels will help ensure you don’t pick a carby food.


FILLERS
Fillers are just junky stuff no one uses so dog food makers throw it in food. It has no real nutritional value except as a source of fiber. Fiber is a good thing, but you can get fiber from other sources like the white rice and oatmeal written about above. Avoid ingredients like Corn Bran, Oat Hulls, Rice Hulls, Wheat Middlings, and Cellulose. Those are floor sweepings, seriously. There are other fillers that aren’t so bad. A little doesn’t hurt but if there are more than a couple fillers in the food it’s probably best to avoid it. Some of the better fillers are Tomato Pomace, Apple Pomace, Citrus Pulp, and Dried Beet Pulp. Just make sure there isn’t a ton of that stuff in there. Remember that the ingredients on the bag are listed by weight so if a filler comes before a good ingredient, there is more filler than the good stuff.

FAT
Fat is probably the second most important ingredient besides meat. Good healthy fats are essential to your dog’s health. Okay, remember reading about the unspecified meat sources in the food. Well, there can be unspecified fat sources in the food too. If your ingredient list says poultry fat, it’s an unspecified fat source. Yuck. If they aren’t honest enough to list what kind of animal is in the food, then that company isn’t going to get my business. If it says chicken fat then YAY! Chicken is chicken; we all know what that is. This goes for all types of fats not just chicken. If it says animal fat, that’s no good. If it says pork fat then it’s good. Get it? Knowing what species your dog is eating is important.

OIL AS FAT
Some companies use oils as their fat source. That’s fine. I prefer oils made from animals (like Salmon Oil) as opposed to plant sources (like Flaxseed Oil or Canola Oil) because my dog (like your dog) is a carnivore. If your dog doesn’t have a problem with plants oils (like allergies and such) then you’re probably all right. Just make sure it doesn’t say Vegetable Oil because that’s unspecified and could have some scary stuff in there.


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

FLAVOR ENHANCERS
Ha, it’s pretty funny when you think about it. These low quality dog foods are so terrible they actually have to add flavor and smell to the kibble to make dogs want to eat it.

Tallow and Lard are two very bad forms of fat. These fats are nutritionally shallow. They aren’t a good source of linoleic acid which is important to a dog’s health, and are just there because they smell and taste appealing to canines. Avoid those ingredients.

You also want to look out for anything called digest. Digest is like a big stew of just about everything except the kitchen sink. Then they take that soupy mess and add it into the kibble or spray it on after the kibble is made. It has zero nutritional value and its presence on an ingredient list is proof that the food is crap.

Sugar, Sorbitol, Cane Molasses, Fructose, and Corn Syrup are all sweeteners. As yummy as candy and sweet stuff is, dogs don’t need that junk. Sweeteners can lead to obesity, Diabetes, and tooth decay. It’s not fun to be obese, sick, and toothless.

CHEMICALS
Dog food is chalk full of chemicals and dogs have to eat these chemical ridden foods everyday. Chemicals can build up in their bodies overtime and cause sickness.

You want to avoid artificial colors and dyes like Blue 2, Red 40, Yellow 5, Yellow 6 and stuff like that. Dogs don’t care what color their food is. Dog food manufactures put that stuff in there so we see the different colors and think the food is better or more appealing. It’s not. That junk is known to cause tumors and other health problems.

There are also some nasty preservatives you don’t want your dog to be eating. BHA, BHT, Ethoxyquin, and Propyl Gallate are all really bad stuff. BHA and BHT have been banned by a lot of countries because it’s a known human cancer causing agent. It’s still legal in the US though. Don’t risk it. Humans would only eat BHA/BHT once in awhile, but if it’s in your pet’s food they’d have to eat it everyday. Bad bad bad. Ethoxyquin is a stabilizer for rubber! It’s been banned for human consumption! It’s been known to cause all kinds of health problems! Steer clear of that stuff PLEASE! Propyl Gallate (aka Gallic Acid or Propyl Ester) is suspected to cause liver disease and cancer. You know, there are other options to preserve foods. Vitamin E, Vitamin C, and Rosemary do just as good of a job as those chemicals! They just happen to be more expensive but they are much safer than that other stuff.

There’s one more thing you should avoid. It’s located near the end of the ingredient list on that bag of food. It goes by the names Menadione Dimethyl-Pyrimidinol Bisulfate, Menadione Dimethyl-Pyrimidinol Bisulfite, Menadione Sodium Bisulfate Complex, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex, and Vitamin K3. It’s synthetic vitamin K. This is another ugly thing that you should really avoid. It’s been linked to a whole bunch of health problems. There are other whole food and natural ways to get vitamin K in kibble. Manufactures use K3 because it’s cheap.

WHY YOU SHOULD SWITCH
Have you noticed any of the following problems with your dog, lack of energy, itchy runny eyes, eye boogers, itchy skin, ears that smell bad, overall doggy odor, dull coat, excessive shedding, large smelly and loose stools, frequently impacted anal glands? None of those problems are normal for a healthy dog and most can be helped by switching to a better quality food.

A lot of dogs have food allergies or sensitivities that can cause all those above symptoms. The best way to make sure you’re not feeding things to your dog that their body can’t handle is to have an allergy test done by your Vet. If you’re not too keen on running out and getting your dog tested there are a few things you can do right now to help.

First, you should find a food that doesn’t have any of the poor quality ingredients I wrote about above. Sometimes that stuff just isn’t giving your dog enough nutrition to be their healthiest. Next you should check to see if there is soy, wheat, or corn in your food. Those are highly allergenic ingredients. A lot of dogs just can’t tolerate those at all. If there is none of that stuff in your food, check out the main ingredients. If you’ve been feeding the same brand of food or the same kind of protein for awhile your dog could have developed allergies to that kind of meat or carbohydrate.

So if the food you’ve been feeding has an ingredient list that reads like; Chicken, Chicken Meal, White Rice, Brown Rice, Barley etc you want to try a different food that looks nothing like the one you are currently eating. The new food could have an ingredient list like Salmon, Salmon Meal, Oatmeal, Sweet Potato etc. See how different that is? There’s no guarantee that it’s going to cure your dog but I bet it will help your dog.


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

SO WHAT IN THE HECK ARE YOU SUPPOSED TO FEED?
Well, there are lots of good foods out there. Since every dog is different it’s hard for me to say one food is better than another. What one dog does terribly on another dog could do wonderfully on. If you’re looking for a truly awesome and healthy food you’re not going to find it at your local grocery store or Wal-Mart. More than likely you’re going to have to go to a pet specialty store or order online.

THE PRICE OF PREMIUM
Premium foods are more expensive. From what I’ve seen, the really good foods average out at about $1.75 a pound whereas the food at the grocery store is about $.75 a pound. Huge difference isn’t it? Not really. The premium foods often have way more calories. So that 20lb bag of premium food that costs $35 it going to outlast the 20lb bag of food that costs $15. You probably think I’m full of it don’t you?

Okay, let’s break it down:

Purina Beneful Original has 1674 calories per pound of food. The cost of a 17.6 pound bag on PetFoodDirect.com is $19.49.
1674 * 17.6 = 29462.4 calories
So it costs $19.49 for 29463 calories (I rounded up).
Per calorie it costs you $0.00066.

Canidae All Life Stages has 1875 calories per pound of food. The cost of a 20 pound bag on PetFoodDirect.com is 25.79.
1875 * 20 = 37500 calories
So it costs $25.79 for 37500 calories.
Per calorie it costs you $0.00068.

There is hardly any difference in per calorie costs of the foods. Sure the price per pound of Canidae is higher, but you’re getting a heck of a lot more food for that price. Each piece of Canidae kibble is providing a lot more nutrition to your pet than each piece of Beneful kibble. You’d have to feed less Canidae than you would Beneful. Less food going in means less food coming out the other end. That’s a huge plus in my book.


INGREDIENTS COMPARISON
Since I’ve already used Canidae All Life Stages and Beneful as examples I’m going to go ahead and continue using them. I don’t mean to pick on Beneful. It’s just that it was the only lower quality food that I could find the calories per pound so I used it. The reason I chose Canidae ALS as an example is because I know it’s a great good food at a really reasonable price and it is pretty easy to find. There are many other great foods out there. Don’t think that Canidae is the end all be all of kibble.

Now let’s compare the ingredients of these two foods. I’m sure you’ve been paying attention so you should be able to pick out all the nasty ingredients right?

Beneful- Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, sugar, sorbitol, tricalcium phosphate, water, salt, phosphoric acid, animal digest, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, sorbic acid (a preservative), L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried peas, dried carrots, calcium carbonate, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, added color (Yellow 5, Red 40, Yellow 6, Blue 2), DL-Methionine, Vitamin E supplement, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, Vitamin A supplement, manganese sulfate, niacin, Vitamin B-12 supplement, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, copper sulfate, biotin, garlic oil, thiamine hydrochloride, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite.

Canidae ALS- Chicken Meal, Turkey Meal, Brown Rice, White Rice, Lamb Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Herring Meal, Flax Seed, Sun Cured Alfalfa Meal, Sunflower Oil, Chicken, Lecithin, Monocalcium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Linoleic Acid, Rosemary Extract, Sage Extract, Dried Enterococcus Faecium, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Product, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Extract, Dried Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Inulin (from Chicory root), Saccharomyces Cerevisiae Fermentation Solubles, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Mixed Tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), Zinc Amino Acid Chelate, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate, Iron Amino Acid Chelate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate, Cobalt Amino Acid Chelate, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (source of Vitamin C), Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Vitamin B1), Riboflavin (source of B2), Beta Carotene, Calcium Pantothenate, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Vitamin B6), Calcium Iodate, Folic Acid, D-Biotin, Sodium Selenite, Papaya, Vitamin B12 Supplement.

Do I actually need to explain this to you? Nearly every one of the bad ingredients I told you about before is in Beneful. There are two kinds of sugar in the first 10 ingredients. There are unspecified animals sources. There are dyes and nasty chemicals. What gives?

Do you see any of that junk in Canidae?

Now don’t you feel ripped off? Where’s the meat and all the fresh foods that are supposed to be in Beneful? If you are like me, you probably thought you were doing good for your dog buying a name brand food. That stuff is supposed to be good right? On the Beneful commercial it shows meat, rice, corn, and vegetables right? Well, where in the heck is that stuff? All I see are corn and chemicals!


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

CORN AND LOW QUALITY FOODS
A good indicator that you have a low quality food is the presence of corn. If you are feeding a food you got at a grocery store, chances are you’re feeding your dog mostly corn. Check the ingredients of the food you have or plan on feeding to your dog. Is there corn in there? Is it the first ingredient? Why would a dog need corn and meat-less by-products in their food instead of meat? If you ran out of dog food what would you feed your dog? An ear of corn? I hope not. If you have any sense, you’d most likely feed your dog a piece of meat. Then why have we all been buying big bags of corn for our dogs to eat?

Why do the big companies like Mars (Nutro, Pedigree, Royal Canin). Procter and Gamble (Iams, Eukanuba), and Nestle (Purina, Alpo) think that dogs don’t need any meat? What are candy and toilet paper making companies doing producing dog food anyway?

A few of you who are reading this are saying to yourself, “I had a dog live 18 years eating food like that and he was just fine.” Most of you that have a story like that have probably already stopped reading this. That’s okay. This is for the few of you that are still with me. A man named Buster Martin has been a beer drinker and smoker nearly his entire life. He’s 101 years old and he just competed in the London Marathon. Google him and read his story. If you had a dog live for 18 years eating mostly corn that dog is a genetic marvel just like Buster Martin. Most of us aren’t as lucky as Mr. Martin, and most of our dogs won’t be that lucky either. Dogs have very short life spans and providing them with the nutrition they need is an important way to keep them healthy for as long as possible.

A QUICK WORD ABOUT CANNED FOOD
Canned foods are less processed than kibble. They also provide your pet with much needed moisture. How do you know you’re getting a good kind of canned food though? You can use the same method as choosing a kibble. If the ingredient label on the canned food lists stuff like by-products, chemicals, lots of carbohydrate fragments, corn, soy, and other junk don’t get it. Simple as that. You should be able to recognize most of the ingredients in the food as food.

An example of a good food is: Chicken, Chicken Liver, Chicken Broth, Brown Rice, Eggs, Peas, Carrots, Flaxseed, Spinach, Menhaden Fish Oil, Vitamins, Dried Kelp, Salt, Taurine, Potassium Chloride, Minerals, Artichokes, Cranberries, Pumpkin, Tomato, Blueberries, Broccoli, Cabbage, Kale, Parsley.


And an example of a bad food is: Chicken, sufficient water for processing, poultry by-products, brewers rice, carob bean gum, sodium tripolyphosphate, carrageenan, minerals, vegetable oil, dried yam, guar gum, natural flavor blend, bay leaves, vitamins.

PUPPY, ADULT, AND SENIOR FOOD
There are four main types of dog foods on the market; Puppy, Adult Maintenance, Senior, and All Life Stages. The first three are pretty self explanatory. Puppy food is designed for growing puppies, adult maintenance is designed to maintain the health of an adult, senior formulas are designed for older, less active dogs and they are typically lower calorie versions of the adult. Senior formulas are also notorious for being full of fillers, so make sure to read those ingredient labels. All Life Stages (ALS) foods are designed to be used by every dog no matter the age.

LARGE BREED PUPPIES NEED DIFFERENT FOODS
Every dog is an individual, and therefore has unique needs. Large and giant breed puppies for example, should eat foods with a moderate protein percentage, as well as a calcium level of 1.5% or less. Also, it’s important to keep them lean to avoid extra pressure on the joints. These criteria ensure a proper growth rate, and help prevent joint issues in adulthood. Puppy foods, for the most part, should be avoided because they often promote a faster growth rate than is recommended.

WHAT FOOD DOGSTERS DON’T RECOMMEND
While Dogsters try not to ostracize anyone because of the food they feed, there are certain foods that are not recommended by the majority of members. Some of these companies listed make prescription foods. If you have a very sick dog that needs special foods, then you might have to feed your dog a food with pretty grody ingredients. Sometimes you just gotta do it. If your dog is very sick, please talk to your vet.

Take a look at the ingredients of the following foods and try to apply what you’ve learned to see why they aren’t considered that great.
Alpo - http://www.alpo.com
Beneful - http://www.beneful.com
Dad’s - http://www.dadspetcare.com
Purina Dog Chow - http://www.longliveyourdog.com
Iams - http://www.iams.com
Nutro - http://www.nutroproducts.com
Pedigree - http://www.pedigree.com
Purina One - http://www.purinaone.com
Pro Plan - http://www.proplan.com
Science Diet - http://www.hillspet.com
Royal Canin - http://www.royalcanin.com
Eukanuba - www.eukanuba.com


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

WHAT FOODS DOGSTERS DO RECOMMEND
This is a list of most of the foods frequently recommended (and fed by) Dogsters. Check out their ingredients lists and you’ll see why. All of these recommendations are for healthy dogs. There are other foods not on this list that are good too. This will at least give you a good starting out point.
Blue Buffalo - http://www.bluebuff.com
By Nature - http://www.bynaturepetfoods.com
Canidae - http://www.canidae.com
Natural Balance - http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com
Eagle Pack Holistic Select - http://www.eaglepack.com
Evanger’s - http://www.evangersdogfood.com
Fromm - http://www.frommfamily.com
Merrick - http://www.merrickpetcare.com
Timberwolf - http://www.timberwolforganics.com
Natura Products - http://www.naturapet.com
Wellness - http://www.wellnesspetfood.com
Nature’s Logic - http://www.natureslogic.com
Nature’s Variety - http://naturesvariety.com
Orijen - http://www.orijen.ca
Solid Gold - http://www.solidgoldhealth.com
Taste of the Wild - http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com
Ziwi Peak - http://www.ziwipeak.com

TREATS AND CHEWS
Treats and chews shouldn’t make up more than 10% of a dog’s diet. Any more than that and you run the risk of throwing off your dog’s vitamin and mineral ratios causing nutritional deficiencies. There are some really great and really terrible treats out there. Now that you’ve learned how to pick a good dog food, you should be able to find good nutritious snacks without ugly chemicals and by-products.

Here’s an example of a treat you would want to avoid.
Beggin’ Strips Original Bacon Flavor: Ground wheat, corn gluten meal, wheat flour, ground yellow corn, water, sugar, glycerin, soybean meal, hydrogenated starch hydrolysate, bacon (preserved with sodium nitrite), salt, bacon fat (preserved with BHA), meat, phosphoric acid, sorbic acid (a preservative), calcium propionate (a preservative), natural and artificial smoke flavors, added color (Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 1, Yellow 6).

See. It’s got that ugly stuff we talked about before.

Here’s an example of a good treat.
Wellness Pure Rewards Beef: Beef, Dried Chicory Root, Cultured Whey, Sea Salt, Lecithin, Garlic, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative).

Biscuit or cookie type treats are very popular too. Compare these two biscuit treats and see which one is better.

Hills Science Diet Adult Canine Maintenance Treats with Real Chicken: Corn meal, brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, powdered cellulose, chicken, natural flavor, animal fat (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), dried egg product, minerals (potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, iodized salt, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), preserved with BHT and BHA, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, niacin, thiamine, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement).

Old Mother Hubbard Old Fashioned Dog Biscuit: Wheat flour, oatmeal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), molasses, charcoal, chicken, white cheddar cheese, eggs, turmeric, paprika, whole ground apples, whole ground carrots, garlic, sea salt.

In a good treat you should be able to recognize the ingredients as food.

You can also find good chews and bad chews. A bad chew’s ingredient list looks like this.
Busy Bone ChewBone Treat: Rice, glycerin, wheat flour, water, tricalcium phosphate, poultry by-product meal, gelatin, hydrogenated starch hydrolysate, brewers dried yeast, sugar, dried beef stock, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), wheat gluten, partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil, phosphoric acid, animal digest, salt, added color (Red 40, Yellow 5, Blue 1, Yellow 6 and other color), sorbic acid (a preservative), natural and artificial flavors, BHA (a preservative), BHT (a preservative).

Here’s another popular chew whose ingredients are severely lacking.
Greenies: Gelatin, Wheat Protein Isolate, Glycerin, Soy Protein Isolate, Sodium Caseinate, Natural Poultry flavour, Hydrogenated Starch Hydrolysate, Vegetable Oil (Preserved with Propyl Gallate), Sodium Tripolyphosphate, Lecithin, Ground Flaxseed, Minerals (Calcium Carbonate, Magnesium Oxide, Zinc Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Potassium Iodide), Magnesium Monostearate, Vitamins (dl-Alpha Tocopherol Acetate [source of vitamin E], Vitamin B12 Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Niacin Supplement, Vitamin A Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [Vitamin B6], Thiamine Mononitrate [Vitamin B1], Folic Acid), Monoglycerides of Edible Fatty Acids, Choline Chloride, Potassium Sorbate (to preserve freshness), Chlorophyll.

The best chews are made from animals. Bones, ears, hooves, bullysticks, lungs, gullets, antlers, trachea, tendons, and other products like this make wonderful chews. They are fully digestible and will help keep your pet’s teeth clean just as well as the other two.


Okay, that is a basic rundown of dog foods and treats. There are SO many products out there and it can get overwhelming very quickly. If you’re looking to switch foods just take it slow. You’ll find the perfect food you’re looking for. I promise!

Here are a couple of places that can help you with your food search.
The Dog Food Project - http://www.dogfoodproject.com
Dog Food Analysis - http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

Sorry to post a million times, but there is a word limit to posts, so I couldnt post the whole article at once. It is an article written by a friend named Sedona (her owner), as I often also help out on the Dogster site and after we had received lots of the same questions over and over regarding food and nutrition these longer things started being written. It includes the same kind of math I did for my dogs, and while not perfect, it is a good article and a darn good place to start!


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Holy. Cow. @[email protected]


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## Jordan S (Nov 21, 2009)

BenTheMan said:


> Why would you be afraid to switch to Purina? Probably the largest fraction of dogs in the US are eating Purina or Pedigree, and they seem to be doing pretty well.
> 
> Also, if your fiance is worried about a purely raw diet because of cost, you might choose instead to supplement your kibble with raw foods.


pretty well means they are breathing, walking, and alive. People have higher standards for their dog's health than that.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Binkalette said:


> Holy. Cow. @[email protected]


agreed.


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## GSP Mom (Dec 26, 2009)

BenTheMan said:


> It seems pretty ridiculous to ignore a recommendation from the person who you trust your dog's health with, right? It seems to me that, all things being equal, you should trust your doctor to prescribe the right drugs, and your vet to recommend a good dog food. Remember that both your doctor and your vet went to school for a long time to do what they're doing. Daisy.


Our vet who is a personal friend also told us that he had one session, that is one 2 hour lecture, on nutrition. Vets believe what the pet food manufacturers tell them.

If you want real enlightenment about what is really in commercial pet feed, read Ann Martins, "Foods Pets Die For."


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

wkusigep460 said:


> Would you put NB in your top 10? I want the best for Cooper (within a somewhat reasonable price). Do you think I should get a food with more protein?


heck no. the first ingredient is not even meat anymore. they also removed the "meal" so it is a sac of taters or grain. no thanks!


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

I still stand by NB being a good food, it is like I said a bit grain heavy and protein low, but it is still on the good food list. Their allergy line is also helpful to dogs with allergies. 

However, top 10, I'd say no. There so many really good ones...I'd say top 20. 

The top tier I’d have to say, for me, would be (Ill keep grain inclusive and exclusive together--although personally I prefer grain exclusive foods)but as a general list: Wellness/Wellness Core, Natura Products Evo & Innova, Nature’s Logic, Nature’s Variety Products Instinct & Prairie, Orijen, Solid Gold’s line (for the most part), Ziwi Peak, and Fromm. 

The second tier I’d say, for me, would be: By Nature, Timberwolf (only b/c they have undergone some changes in recent years and some issues with truthfulness to consumers, but overall remain a good food ingredient wise), Natural Balance, Canidae, Blue Buffalo, Eagle Pack HOLISTIC (only the holistic) Select, and California Naturals. Still very good foods and WORLDS better than grocery. 

For very inexpensive but not too bad, I’d say Kirklands/Diamond Naturals (ONLY the naturals line). 

If Im forgetting any, forgive me, it is late and I’m rocking a huge headache


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

Ruckusluvr, I agree the NB is grain heavy and a bit low on protein, but I think we should still becareful not to discourage people who have made the switch. For a lot of people it is still "purina is the best food ever" and to make the switch to a better quality food is often a big deal. I encourage NB b/c it is still a good food, and worlds better than what was previously fed. Sure, there is better, but it is still a vast improvement, and I dont want to discourage people from feeding what they can afford, even if it isnt the best best, as long as it is better --know what I mean?


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

sorry about your head ache. i know how that is!

I pretty well agree with you on your fav dog foods, but I still dont consider Natural Balance in the same quality group as canidae, BB, eagle pack holistic, select, and cal nats.
more like down there with Diamond nats/kirklands.

Where do you put Taste of the wild in your list? I vote second tier. It is a good food, and it is what i feed, but still... it is a sack of taters. not like natural balance tho


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

Ruckusluvr, lol! This headache is killing me! 

I still disagree on the NB. It is grain heavy, and I do know people who supplement with adding protein to it--but I also know a few dogs who do great on it, and who didnt do well on other foods due to intolerances, and for one, incontinence. The one with incontinence just wouldnt firm up on anything else, and so they add lean protein to his diet. It is still worlds better than grocery, and so I think it should stay on the list. It does lack the bad stuff, and as a food they are trying--and they are honest about it being grain heavy--like the label says it is Potato and Duck--not Duck and Potato. So, I keep it on the list 

Now, as for TOTW...oh boy. I used to feed TOTW, as it is a good food--ingredients, meat, it is lovely. However, there has been an issue which TOTW has ignored and refuses to directly address--and until they do, I figure I might as well feed something else. However, it is not 100%, and it is still a nicely formulated food. So, the choice is yours. The issue is that in their food, they use fish--they specifically state they do not ADD any ethoxyquin to their fish--(if they did they would have to list it in the ingredients list), BUT (and here is the big BUT), they claim they do not know if the fish they purchase has ALREADY been treated with ethoxyquin before they got it. Some companies state their fish is totally ethoxyquin free--as in it didnt have it when they bought it, and they didnt add any. Meanwhile, TOTW states they don't personally add any ethoxyquin, but they dont know for sure if their supplier uses it on the fish before they get it. Sadly, adding ethoxyquin to fish meant for dog food after it is caught is common, and so there is a significant chance that the fish has ethoxyquin in it when it arrives at the TOTW plant. 

TOTW has never clarified, and when asked has always said the above "we dont add any" but can't clarify with any definity about if the fish has it added before they get their hands on it. 

The High Prairie and Wetlands uses less fish than the Pacific Stream uses, so it is likely to have less ethoxyquin than the Pacific Stream would. 

But for me, the Wellness Core was about the same price (like $2 more a bag), so I figured, eh, why even deal with it when I can just go with the Core. However, it is still a good food, and shouldnt be crossed off the list yet. My dogs did love the taste, but they love the Core too. 

So, now that I wrote a novel sized reply...lol!


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh, and at least the grains/potatos in NB are better than the "grains" and filler (aka Corn and crap) that is in the lower quality foods! It could be worse. 

Random note, I find millet to be a really cool grain for dog food lol.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

GSP Mom said:


> Our vet who is a personal friend also told us that he had one session, that is one 2 hour lecture, on nutrition. *Vets believe what the pet food manufacturers tell them.*
> 
> If you want real enlightenment about what is really in commercial pet feed, read Ann Martins, "Foods Pets Die For."


I'm in vet school and I can assure you that, in terms of nutrition, I have way more on my plate than a single, 2 hour lecture. I'll have had 3 courses in nutrition by the time I get done. But, it doesn't matter since we're so impressionable, right? 

And, in case anyone is wondering. No, veterinarians do not receive money from Hill's or any other pet food company to sell their products. If that is occuring, you should report it as it goes against the AVMA code of ethics. It clearly states that: 

The choice of treatments or animal care should not be influenced by considerations other than the needs of the patient, the welfare of the client, and the safety of the public.

Veterinarians should not allow their medical judgment to be influenced by agreements by which they stand to profit through referring clients to other providers of services or products.

The medical judgments of veterinarians should not be influenced by contracts or agreements made by their associations or societies.


This is taken seriously. Vets have gotten in big trouble for violating these rules. So, for all of the conspiracy theory people out there that think Hill's is sliding unmarked bags of cash into your vet's mailbox, sorry. I get Hill's food at a deep discount and even get 1 bag/month (if i want it) of Purina veterinary diet for free. Perks of the job I guess. But, If anyone thinks we're all so corrupt that we'd let a bag of food sway our medical decisions, well...


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

However, different vet schools may offer different amounts of courses on different topics like nutrition. Im a law student, so who knows. I mean, different law schools teach different amounts of certain things, and well, different topics are offered. 

Sadly, every profession has a few bad apples who care more about greed and personal gain than about their ethics--and those bad apples ruin it for everyone. For the most part, professionals do stick to their ethics or at least try to! 

So, Mr. V, if you need something to do with that extra purina, I hear birds love it.  Oh, and if you do encounter someone stuffing mailboxes with cash, please send them my way. That would be great! LOL


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

Oh, and the poster above is in Canada, so maybe vet school is somewhat different in Canada. lol.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Purina told me it was healthy for humans. So, I have no choice but to eat it myself.

PS: get back to finishing up, ya know, the other thing...


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

heehee. How does it taste? Corny? lol.

I already sent it--two in fact!


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

did you get them?


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

about the ethoxiquin... i have did lots of study about this. and most reports state that the studies were done on rats.
did you know that artificial sweetener, and orange juice causes cancer in rats? I just do not think that a study on rats is reliable for dogs, or even people for that matter! Supposedly most of the ethoxiquin is cooked out of the food, and even before being cooked out it is very very well below the dangerous limit to rats.

I think it is important to do what you are comfortable with though!


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## elenajas (Jan 11, 2009)

well the ethoxyquin is still up in the air as to everything--so I figured, the core is a great food, same price, why even deal with it? Id hate to find out later I was wrong and the ethoxyquin was there and harmful, so Id rather err on the side of caution. BUt it is still a good food ingredient wise! (and apparently tasty)


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

I have to say Iams, Purina and Science Diet are crap. I just can't believe that it is good for dogs, even if you can't see it on the outside. There is no way to know how a dog is effect by different foods over a life time, but I will feed my dog better food because I don't want to create a problem in the long run. If you can't tell I'm a dog food freak  

My mother-in-law is a vet tech and they sell a small amount of low end food, but jeez she doesn't feed it to her dog! She feeds solid gold and loves it! I don't think that the vet there would ever push crappy food and I know my mother-in-law wouldn't! Just because your vet says something that they are "supposed" to doesn't mean you should take their word on it. My doc said I had a back problem and it turned out to be a kidney infection I was in a critical condition before my mom read on the INTERNET that it could be a kidney infection. So my belief is always take things with a grain of salt and see for yourself don't be a lemming. Research wont kill you.


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## HORSEandHOUND (May 28, 2009)

One of your questions was "is NB in your top 10?" No it's not but that's not to say it's bad and going to do horrible things to your dog  Nutrition has come a LONG way in the last 30 years; there's just so many good ones to choose from! For the money you spend you could get a "better" food, but honestly that depends on how your individual dog processes certain nutrients. 

I have one dog that HAS to be on a high protein high fat diet to maintain. You feed that dog a food with a higher carb content and he wastes away. Where i have another that needs protein and fat lower to maintain. 

If your dog thrives on carbs, you've picked a great choice, but if you find you are fighting the pudge, try something with lean proteins and more complex carbs (think more fruits and veggies).


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Mr. V said:


> I'm in vet school and I can assure you that, in terms of nutrition, I have way more on my plate than a single, 2 hour lecture. I'll have had 3 courses in nutrition by the time I get done. But, it doesn't matter since we're so impressionable, right?
> 
> And, in case anyone is wondering. No, veterinarians do not receive money from Hill's or any other pet food company to sell their products. If that is occuring, you should report it as it goes against the AVMA code of ethics. It clearly states that:
> 
> ...


I don't know where the conspiracy theory started but where I work, they get good deals and yes, the occasional free bag of food especially if the company is introducing a new formula or a revised version of an old formula. 

Hills does sponsor nutrition courses so I can see where people think vets are biased...how do you really know you aren't biased unless you take an 'objective' nutritition course for animals? Is there really something that is objective? 

And I do think that vet school is different in CAnada than it is in the States. And Canada is more strict in terms of food regulations.

However, just because I work for an animal hospital doesn't mean I feel comfortable feeding Purina, Medi-Cal, Hills or Eukanuba/Iams. I've said this before, I think there is a place for prescription food but I wish that with all the money they make, they could use better ingredients than corn, corn gluten, corn gluten meal, by-products (as good as they may be, why not name them?), menadione bisulfite complex (substitute for vitamin K but really what is it and what does it do to our animals?) etc. With all their "objective" research, can they not use real meat, and actual vitamin K? They charge a lot more than a premium food costs so if they want to be credible, they should use credible ingredients. I feel bad taking money for food that is not really worth the price our clients are paying. I have to feed my cat k/d as I have not found a food with the right proportion of phosphorus and protein for a CRF cat but a case if $47 +!!! Almost fifty bucks for a half a can of gelatin. 

so then, Mr. V, answer me this....you've taken some nutrition courses in vet school and you've candidly admitted to getting free food....when you own your own clinic, will you be selling Hills', PUrina, Medi-cal etc. because you get a good deal (i.e. pricewise) or because you honestly believe the foods are good? If you reply the latter, please explain why. I would really be interested in a veterinary student's point of view. And, were the nutrition courses you took sponsored by a company? Please don't take this as a criticism or whatever, just an interested person who wants another point of view.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Flipgirl,

Now THAT is a way to ask that question. Sometimes I read and hear (on this website and other places) questions that are really more like accusations. Needless to say, I am always more reluctant to tell someone the truth about veterinary school (even if it will dispel a myth) if they come into the whole scene proclaiming that "vet's are idiots and don't know anything and they do it all for money and truckloads of free dog food while living in million dollar mansions provided by Hill's." Ok, maybe that was a little overboard, but, you get the idea...

Hill's - I can not speak for all vet schools, but, they never "sponsor" a nutrition class. My nutrition classes (I will have had 3 in college by the time I graduate in 2012) are designed and operated the same way all of the other classes are. Let me make this point very clear: ALMOST ALL of the lectures in nutrition are NOT taught by a representative from a food company. Hill's usually shows up for a lecture, and I can't remember if Purina does too, but, it's not more than that. With the exception of no more than a COUPLE lectures, the nutrition classes are taught by board certified veterinary specialists that are clinicians and regular employees of the vet school. And, if you want my personal opinion, I honestly believe most of them (the specialists) secretly despise the likes of Hill's and Purina. 

They DO give money to every vet school. I mean, we need it for research. It takes A LOT of money to run one of these places, more than you'd think. So, we're not going to turn away from them if they're only asking to teach a few lectures in exchange for lots of money. 

When I have my own clinic (that seems so far away for me), I probably will supply a limited amount of prescription diet. I have no intention of selling mass quantities of regular old science diet or any other food (maybe a good high quality food that is hard to find if they'll come to an agreement with me on shipping prices). I want to practice medicine and have a positive contribution to society, not be a dog food salesman. I am going to personally evaluate each Rx diet, decide its usefulness in certain disease states, and stock it accordingly {there are some that I think are dumb and are made Rx diets so that they can just charge more}. If, by the time I get that clinic, a high quality dog food company [like the ones often mentioned on this website] is producing the Rx diets I need and they are reasonable in terms of shipping time and cost, I will go with them. 

If Purina and Hill's are still the only ones making the Rx diets I need, then I'll have to choose one of them. Here's why: chances are, the Rx diets made by either of those companies is just as good quality [if not better] as most pet owners are feeding right now anyway. Therefore, it won't be a drop in food quality. Fact is, most clients are either unwilling or unable to regularly purchase a $50+ bag of food on a regular basis. When I have to alter the diet of, say, a raw feeder? I'll work that one out when I get there. 

What do I wish would happen? That every pet owner in the world would be as hardcore as most of the people on this website. If that happened, the likes of Hill's and Purina would be forced to up the quality of their everyday food because all the pet owners would be reaching for the small time, high quality brands instead. Not that I think feeding those food items makes a client irresponsible, it's just not quiet as good a quality. Which, I do have to say, A LOT of people on this forum demonize those dog foods. But, come on, as bad as some might think it is there is DEFINITELY WORSE. If all that were to happen then obviously the Rx diets would also go way up in quality as well = better for everyone. I may disagree on certain subjects (like raw) with people around these parts, but, I'd take a few disagreements like that if I had the assurance my pet owners would be as diligent in taking care of their pets. 

Someone on another one of the forums pleaded with me to study nutrition. Well, I am. I read that sort of literature all the time. The clinicians at the small animal hospital are tired of me coming over to hound them for more research papers and articles to read. You gotta understand though, as great as I want to be in that subject, I'm expected to be very proficient in dermatology, oncology, radiology, opthamology, etc... bla bla bla. So, I fit it all in when I can. 

Since you asked an ethical question, I'll also chime in on another comment I've seen here and there {not by you, just in general}. I'm not in this for the money. Trust me, it's not as good as you think it is. And the debt is probably worse than you think it is. It would take more room than this little white space allows for me to explain why I do what I do, but, I can tell you that striking it rich isn't part of it. Almost all of the people in my class are the same way. I honestly don't think someone could make it if they weren't. It's just too much to handle for someone if they weren't completely in love with this profession and didn't have some extremely high compassion for animals. 

So, does that answer your questions? As long as something is presented appropriately, I'll answer honestly and completely. And, I may just throw in my own worthless .02.


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## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

Well said, Mr.V! 

I asked a Vet, not my regular Vet, but a substitute (?), what she thought about nutrition and she said that she had one course on it at school. After the course she never looked at the test book again. She also fed Pedigree. I didn't say too much about it after that, but I wanted to ask her if I could have her text book! 

My current Vet recommends Natura products, and only sells Rx Hill's.

I have a new neighbor who just graduated from Davis, she and her BF are vegetarians and I'm so excited to have her in my neighborhood! I can't wait to pick her brain, hehee.


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## Triskit (Feb 1, 2010)

I worked for a Veterinarian for 5 years. He did say that most of his continued education was delivered to him by his drug company reps and pet food distributors. I asked if Science Diet was really good for dogs, he shrugged and said he recommended Science Diet regular formulas because in due time he would inevitably switch the pet to one of the prescription diets that cost more and only vets could sell. He said it was not great food, but he had the exclusive on selling the specific diets. 

I asked another vet who I did not necessarily respect once why Veterinarians promoted food that contained corn and things known to be not great for dogs and cats, he said it wasn't that bad and if it created allergy situations or other health problems it would ensure his business would flourish. 

Some animal professionals are not in business solely because they love pets. They do get paid for what they do. I love grooming pets, but I do want/need pay for doing it, it is still business. Some take it to extremes though. When a sales rep is telling their client if you promote this you will see your sales rise dramatically and your profit margin increase substantially over time, I am sure that it is an easy choice to make for some vets. They bank on the fact that their customers will not question their expertise. 

I have noticed recently that vets in my area are more open to the holistic or grain free pet foods, and more natural remedies. IMO, I think this is due to the fact that consumers are not blindly assuming everything our vets are saying is accurate anymore. As we gain knowledge we are taking more information to our pet care providers, the vets are finding it necessary to do some of their own research and consider some alternatives. 

A Veterinarian told me once that wild dogs very rarely ever (She said never) have "allergies" at all. Allergies are very common in pets these days and this vet believes that we, the caregivers of our completely dependent pets have over time, inadvertently, created the problem for or beloved pets, by using corn and things a dog or cat in the wild would simply not eat. 

Many people will argue that grocery store foods are what their pet prefers. Well if that is what they are accustomed to they will have an affinity to it. Besides, I am sure some of the things in those foods taste better then wholesome good ingredients. It is the same with children, would an average child choose candy or spinach? Which is better? I personally like candy. =p But I know what I should eat. 

Assuming you have a child, or know someone who does... If someone offered that child something you did not recognize, you had no idea what it contained, or if it contained harmful elements... would you let the child eat it? Even if the child smelled it and wanted it, without knowing, would you shrug your shoulders and blindly allow the child to consume it? Is your pet different? We all know our pets are with us for way too short of time, but don't we still take on the responsibility of doing the best for them we can while they are here? 

I was told once it was my duty to be an advocate for my children, it was up to me. Not the Teacher, Doctor, Friend. Me! It is the same for my pet. It is my responsibility as a pet owner to be an advocate for my pet. Not the Drug Rep, Veterinarian, Groomer. Me! In both cases other people/professional help me along the way, but invariably it is my duty. When your pet or child gets sick, hurt, needs anything, who gets the bill? 

We are not Ostriches, don't hide your head in the sand. We may not have all the right answers and there may not always be an exclusive "right" answer. But we have resources that were beyond our wildest dreams 20 years ago. We have the ability and responsibility to do the best we can for the lifes we chose to be responsible for.


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