# I Saw an Alpha Roll Done Right



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Don't worry, I haven't crossed to the Dark Side.

I take Kabota to the dog park before work to let him run around a little when it's not completely full of dogs. Today, there were two vizslas, a mutt a little smaller than Kabota (34.1 lbs at last weigh) and Kabota.

The vizslas were wrestling and it got a little too intense. One of them got angry and started growling, and the other immediately rolled onto his back, head up to expose his neck. The other dog licked his face, the rolled over dog popped back up and they were happily playing again, all within a few seconds.

It was weird to see dogs using what humans have perverted into abuse as a means of quickly apologizing and "resetting" play. Both Kabota and the mutt stopped running to watch the vizslas when the growling started, and as soon as one rolled onto his back, they lost interest. They pretty clearly recognized that as the end of the fight, well before I did.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Dog language is fascinating. Unfortunately, Gyp really isn't a Dog Park Dog, or I'd take her just so I could watch dogs play. 

Gypsy and I rough house all the time. There have been occasions where she mouths or tackles me a little harder than she meant to, which causes me to say "Ouch!" and stop the game. Basically, she does a similar thing as the offending vizsla. She (burrows in my lap and) rolls over to expose her belly. Which I then pet in immediate forgiveness. Then, it's game on! 

So I guess I alpha roll my dog too. Haha.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I kinda want to go without Kabota so I could really watch other dogs play, instead of only seeing whatever is right near Kabota. Kabota and the mutt were behind the vizslas when the almost-fight started, which is the only reason I saw it. Other people think I'm an antisocial weirdo, but I don't like to get too far from my dog or take my eyes off of him in the dog park.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

This is cool. We always tell people that a dog rolling onto its back like that is a voluntary behavior. It would be cool if we had some video to show it. I should look for something like that!


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## Arya of House Stark (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm always fascinated by how dogs interact with one another. Zoe got alpha rolled once when she was playing with this cute German Shepherd named Sparta. She was having an attack of the "puppy crazies" and Sparta, with all the air of a long-suffering older sister who is trying to lay down the law with an obnoxious younger sister who is being annoying, lifted a paw and alpha rolled her. 

The owners apologized, probably thinking I was going to be mad but were pleasantly surprised when my boyfriend and I just laughed. I told them it was fine, the only thing that Zoe hurt was her pride and it was a lesson she needed to learn. The two dogs immediately went back to playing happily, and for the rest of the day my boyfriend and I started making "This…is…Sparta!" jokes at poor Zoe's expense, hahahaha.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

if this was Facebook, i would 'like' this thread.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> I kinda want to go without Kabota so I could really watch other dogs play, instead of only seeing whatever is right near Kabota.


 This was the bonus to the doggy social nights we used to go to where we lived before. There was someone supervising, so we were able to look away from Caeda and watch the other dogs a bit....of course we were mostly interested in what Caeda was doing, but it was an excellent education. Don't worry about people thinking you're an antisocial weirdo......maybe you are...I am too, and I like it 

I think it is so cool seeing the dogs doing a "real" alpha roll. Caeda got swatted down hard once by the neighbor's dog when she was about 5 months old....she was being REALLY obnoxious and he just turned around and stomped her with one of his big ol paws, and actually stood over her and growled before leaving. She bounced back well, but that kind of led us to decide we should keep her away from him, he was too old and arthritic to put up with much more of her crazies lol. I also saw her walk up to a HUGE bullmastiff when she was about 1yr, who made her nervous for unknown reasons, he stood up, actually play-bowed and she instantly rolled on her back, then rolled back over and commenced to play with him. Funny and really fascinating.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have one dog who alpha rolls all the time to the 'matriarch' yet will get all stiff legged and stands straight at another dog who is lower on the pack totem pole. dog behavior is interesting to watch. How weather, time of day, place in the yard can determine how a dog acts or reacts.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Although I've never seen it with Raggy,he has always had that top dog mentality. With the Malamute mix and Newfie they would do it with larger more assertive dogs until they hit maturity. Later I remember younger dogs rolling over for her(the malamute mix). Volk my parents Corgi mix is already doing it less at 5 months with Raggy and getting more defensive. I wish that puppy would do it more,but he's kind of a brat.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I've seen Gally roll on his back to appease older or grouchy dogs. Afterwards he can usually get them to play with him.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

This video kinda illustrates a voluntary dog/dog alpha roll-- Eva rolls over and Chester backs off and returns and backs off and returns until she leaps up to play again.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

are you alpha rolling your dog or is your dog rolling on her back?



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Dog language is fascinating. Unfortunately, Gyp really isn't a Dog Park Dog, or I'd take her just so I could watch dogs play.
> 
> Gypsy and I rough house all the time. There have been occasions where she mouths or tackles me a little harder than she meant to, which causes me to say "Ouch!" and stop the game. Basically, she does a similar thing as the offending vizsla. She (burrows in my lap and) rolls over to expose her belly. Which I then pet in immediate forgiveness. Then, it's game on!
> 
> ...


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

there's a big difference between a dog rolling on it's back and a human rolling a dog on it's back.



Amaryllis said:


> Don't worry, I haven't crossed to the Dark Side.
> 
> I take Kabota to the dog park before work to let him run around a little when it's not completely full of dogs. Today, there were two vizslas, a mutt a little smaller than Kabota (34.1 lbs at last weigh) and Kabota.
> 
> ...


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Remmy, alpha rolls Kris all the time, has since she was a puppy. He is only 10 lbs. and she is now 70 lbs. and he still does it to her. All he has to do is walk stiff legged towards her when she gets too rough with him or one of the other small dogs, and down she goes. I have never corrected him for it because that is the only time he does it. In the mornings when I go out to feed the horse, she quite often stalks him, head down, one foot in the air, then charges at him but would never touch him. It is just a game with them. He has certainly made it easier for her to be out with the small dogs.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

totally agree to spend more time where you can just watch the animals interact with each other how they follow through with behaviors for the end results especially the paths of escalation in the wrong direction.. People to tend to over react over compensate towards the animals not understanding what they do. Think bad things of the individual animals when actually they were handling the situation very correctly for a peaceful out come in the moment and the future.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

doggiepop said:


> there's a big difference between a dog rolling on it's back and a human rolling a dog on it's back.


Absolutely, and that is part of the point I think. Sometimes dogs do it in play, sometimes in reaction to another scary/intimidating dog as a "sign of submission", or one dog will do it to another to kind of force that submission (basically saying "cut it out"). It is that sign of submission that humans decided at some point it was smart to force dogs to do, to force them to submit to us....which is the difference between doing it right and not doing it right.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Meeko rolls over on his back/shows general submissive behavior with my boyfriend and myself all the time. He greets us with his head super low to the ground, tilted to one side, ready to completely roll over on his belly when we touch him once lol (this is with his tail wagging furiously, and whining/squeaking from the anticipating of being petted). He also does this with my friend's female who he has known since they were both at the mill. He greets her the same way and will try to lick her muzzle. It's funny because he is otherwise not like this at all with other dogs and people. With other dogs he is often "alpha" lol.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

taquitos said:


> Meeko rolls over on his back/shows general submissive behavior with my boyfriend and myself all the time. He greets us with his head super low to the ground, tilted to one side, ready to completely roll over on his belly when we touch him once lol (this is with his tail wagging furiously, and whining/squeaking from the anticipating of being petted). He also does this with my friend's female who he has known since they were both at the mill. He greets her the same way and will try to lick her muzzle. It's funny because he is otherwise not like this at all with other dogs and people. With other dogs he is often "alpha" lol.


Is that what Kabota's doing? He does this thing where he greets us, tail wagging happily, but head lowered almost to the floor and tilted a little. He's never rolled over or anything, but it's always struck me as if he might be uncertain what our greeting will be. (Keep in mind, our greeting is always "Kabota! Yay! Have a treat! Wheee!")


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> Is that what Kabota's doing? He does this thing where he greets us, tail wagging happily, but head lowered almost to the floor and tilted a little. He's never rolled over or anything, but it's always struck me as if he might be uncertain what our greeting will be. (Keep in mind, our greeting is always "Kabota! Yay! Have a treat! Wheee!")


Yes I think he is being "submissive" to you  Meeko does exactly the same thing as you have described, except when I reach out to pet him, if just one finger touches him, he instantly flops over for some belly rubs lol!

I know he's not nervous because he is not licking his lips, doing cow eyes, or showing any signs of stress. We have never raised our voices at him, used any punishment based training, etc.

In Patricia McConnell's The Other End of the Leash, she describes a similar behavior between one of her BCs and her Pyr  I don't think it's nervousness, just trying to be nonthreatening and "submissive".


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## Rayneiac (Jun 18, 2012)

Both of my silly pups do this when playing with other dogs. If the other dog growls, looks unhappy, shows any tense body language....plop...my pups are on their side/back with gentle tail wags in the blink of an eye. As soon as whatever signal from the other dog stops....they hop back up and go back to whatever they were doing. 

I'm just happy they understand the ins and outs of doggy social skills way better than I ever will. 

It's especially hilarious when the big black lab does that to a little toy dog that could fit in her mouth entirely.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Rayneiac said:


> Both of my silly pups do this when playing with other dogs. If the other dog growls, looks unhappy, shows any tense body language....plop...my pups are on their side/back with gentle tail wags in the blink of an eye. As soon as whatever signal from the other dog stops....they hop back up and go back to whatever they were doing.
> 
> I'm just happy they understand the ins and outs of doggy social skills way better than I ever will.
> 
> It's especially hilarious when the big black lab does that to a little toy dog that could fit in her mouth entirely.


Very sweet  I wish my dog was more socially savvy lol.

Meeko is sometimes extremely hyper/overbearing. He will hop around the dog and jump all over them to try to engage them in play. Even if they growl at him, he will keep doing it so I usually have to call him off lol! He only ever shows "submissive" behavior around that one female


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Greater Swiss said:


> Absolutely, and that is part of the point I think. Sometimes dogs do it in play, sometimes in reaction to another scary/intimidating dog as a "sign of submission", or* one dog will do it to another to kind of force that submission (basically saying "cut it out"). *It is that sign of submission that humans decided at some point it was smart to force dogs to do, to force them to submit to us....which is the difference between doing it right and not doing it right.


Does this actually happen? I thought the "alpha roll" was always a voluntary behavior on the part of the rolling/submitting dog. Which is one of the reasons why an owner forcibly alpha rolling his or her pet dog is dumb.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

My dogs practice the mechanics of the move on each other in a play level.. and in that situation the toss-ie does roll his body and throw themselves over on to the ground with no force put on them from the tosser. The one time one of my guys (Porter) who really meant it to another male (Blade). Blade did give way to the roll when Porter grabbed him by the scruff,,, Porter allowed Blade up, which Blade went to continue to get into Porters face being obnoxious (Blade is not a fighter, just a huge pest) Porter tossed him over again , when Blade tried to get up Porter grabbed his neck and throat to hold him to the ground, then mouth'd Blade at the throat about 2 times to reinforce Blade not to move to get up. Porter stood over Blades body and mouthed his front leg twice .. Blade laid still.. After Porter walked away... Blade continued to lay there still... Even though Porter was gone... When Blade got up he found something else to do then bother Porter. I've seen the scruff move roll, the cheek pin and also going for the front legs to knock and keep the other dog off balance... when they are practicing mechanics of moves during playing. Dogs will fight to defend themselves but I see what they do, is to stop / immobilize the other dog from doing harm.. and not just about tearing them apart


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Does this actually happen? I thought the "alpha roll" was always a voluntary behavior on the part of the rolling/submitting dog. Which is one of the reasons why an owner forcibly alpha rolling his or her pet dog is dumb.


I saw Caeda get the "slap down" by a big grumpy arthritic dog once, and she certainly ended up on her back with him standing over her. I've also seen Caeda and Dexter playing and bumping and rolling each other around, resulting in one or the other on their back (though in that case, I don't know if it was purposeful on the part of either of them....). 
I do agree though, an owner forcibly alpha rolling their dog IS dumb. Closest thing I've ever come to doing in terms of an alpha roll is once when Caeda jumped on the bed and woke me up with a face wash I tossed my arm over her and held her down for a sec...she didn't care, she thought that meant play time, certainly not something I did (or would ever do) on purpose or with intent. We aren't dogs, we have our own set of body language and communication that isn't dog, so trying to alpha roll as if we are dogs has to come across SO differently than it would if a dog did it! Whatever goes through the head of a dog getting alpha rolled by a human CAN'T be the same thing that goes through their head when a dog does it....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

To be honest, I think a lot of dogs respond to another dog pawing at them/slapping them with a paw by either :

A-) Getting TICKED

B-) Rolling over.

I don't think it's actually forcible though. I mean it's whacking on the back with a paw. Dominant? Maybe. Uncomfortable enough for the other dog roll? Certainly. Forcibly rolling? Probably not, since as often as not it results in the other dog standing up and snarling.

That said, Thud forcibly rolled Kylie over a few times. It was puppy play, he was big, she was little and he flipped her over. She promptly came up, royally ticked, and chased him off a few feet then stopped playing with him. Kylie doesn't DO nonsense. Rough play, sure, but there are limits and if Thud crossed them he knew about it in a hurry. She's a pretty great teacher that way, though it can make her problematic with other people's dogs.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

We must be living in another canine universe!?!
We've seen the "forced" canine alpha roll, quite a few times, 
with a number of different dogs involved.

Also, although he is rarely offered the opportunity to do so,
with his high defence drive, our current boy won't hesitate 
to "pin" an aggressive dog to the ground.
This, invariably, happens when he sees 
a larger dog picking on, or attacking, a smaller.

Fortunately, no dogs have been hurt (yet), but the intention 
of this "alpha rolling" is always quite obvious.
Its execution is explosive, forceful and decisive.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

prntmkr said:


> We must be living in another canine universe!?!
> We've seen the "forced" canine alpha roll, quite a few times,
> with a number of different dogs involved.
> 
> ...



Sure, if you've got a dog who rushes forcefully in, most dogs are going to say "OH SHIT' and hit their back. A-) The dog wasn't physically manipulated onto its back, it flipped itself. That's the only way for one dog to get another onto its back. B-) That's a fear response, not an "apology". C-) Your dog's a rude ass, if it's regularly doing that and shouldn't be interacting with other dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Moose and Toby once got into it over a toy or bone or something. Toby was being a jerk. Moose grabbed Toby by the throat, THREW him on the ground, and put his paw on his chest. I'm pretty sure it was a death threat. Toby got the point. Moose is not generally a bully and has not done it before or since. But he had had enough that time, I guess.

I don't deny that humans doing that to a dog COULD be effective punishment (level of humane-ness to be debated separately). The problem being, well several problems: the human would have be be big and strong and mean enough to finish what they started and be willing to escalate and take bites if the dog fights back. Humans do not completely understand dog body language and could be overreacting (like a child being punished for disrespect by a teacher/nanny who doesn't understand the language well---how could he/she know what's disrespectful in that language?). Humans tend to react from ego. Humans do not display the same kind of body language as dogs so it could be a total miscommunication to the dog. Even if effectively communicated: how many things would a dog do that's worth a death threat? It's problematic to say the least. Puny humans should not attempt  (and, big brains are supposed to be used to find alternatives to brute force).


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

not different universe when a dog alpha rolls another dog with intent outside of play. of course the tosser uses full (force) to follow through... but the dogs who is getting tossed has two choices fight against being tossed "which is what I have seen dogs do to humans trying to use an alpha roll" or submit to the toss going with the mechanics of the roll.. so I say the dog being tossed does submit to the roll when a dog with skill and full intent uses it on them. 

First time I ever heard of such a thing and watched a person who had been instructed to use it on their Bernese Mountain dog... I thought it was stupid as the dog was playing back, not taking it seriously and it took too long for her to get him to be still which I still think she never got it right at all before she released him.. Her dog got worse in fighting her ( he was only rambuncious not listening, bouncing all over the place before,, but he evolved after she started rolling him and started growling at her) and she was eventually in a short amount of time was unable to even get him off his feet to do it to him.. 





prntmkr said:


> We must be living in another canine universe!?!
> We've seen the "forced" canine alpha roll, quite a few times,
> with a number of different dogs involved.
> 
> ...


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I don't deny that humans doing that to a dog COULD be effective punishment (level of humane-ness to be debated separately). The problem being, well several problems: the human would have be be big and strong and mean enough to finish what they started and be willing to escalate and take bites if the dog fights back. Humans do not completely understand dog body language and could be overreacting (like a child being punished for disrespect by a teacher/nanny who doesn't understand the language well---how could he/she know what's disrespectful in that language?). Humans tend to react from ego. Humans do not display the same kind of body language as dogs so it could be a total miscommunication to the dog. Even if effectively communicated: how many things would a dog do that's worth a death threat? It's problematic to say the least. Puny humans should not attempt  (and, big brains are supposed to be used to find alternatives to brute force).


Well put Willowy!! I do agree that it can be an effective punishment (how many cowed dogs are there walking around because their owners have done it at the drop of a hat), not appropriate and the fallout IMO is big, but yes, effective. But humans aren't the right ones to do it....I especially appreciate your points about humans reacting from ego, it is very true.


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