# Help! Aggression in the park



## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

So my dog dexter came to me at 2.5years old and I was already his 3rd home. He was a 90 pond cano corso/boxer mix that knew no law and was king onto himself. If you asked him for a sit, he would look you dead in the eye and bark. The closest thing to f you I have ever heard a dog communicate. I could tell that there had been a major power struggle with his previous owners. They were trying to use force and punishment with a dog built to endure the worst, and not giving him passive attention at all. This resulted in a dog that lived to be bad. He didn't care if the attention was negative,attention is attention and he'd take it anyway he could get it.

I have spent 4 years loving and training this dog (positive reinforcement only) and I have had the privilege of watching him transform. He has amazed me with how quickly he can learn something new once we were bonded and both speaking the same language. Unfortunately though you can teach an old dog new tricks but you cannot make him forget his old ones... Only encourage him to choose the better response.

The only issues that arise these days is in the dog park. I know I've had a hand in this because right from the beginning I allowed him off leash and park time was his time. He had so much pent up energy that I couldn't begin training without draining it. Now I have control over him at home, on leash, and yes consistent recall at the park, but still his attitude at the park is he's the boss.

When he goes to meet any male of similar size he meets them assertively. (Ears up,tail up, hackles raised) most of the time they will run off and play but sometimes they T off and there's a fight. He only ever plays with large male dogs and it's the same type he fights. If he has met the dog before and played, they will never fight, same goes for dogs he's fought as he is likely to fight them again. He never starts in play and ends in a fight, if he's going to fight he does it right away. I wonder if his play stance and fight stance are the same. That as a pup no one corrected his rough play or greetings and now the signals get confused. 
Even though I can clearly see in his body language that he is the aggressor/challenger he never throws the first punch/bite. He is always the one to come out bloody because he boxes like a boxer and doesn't really bite the other dogs. that being said, a couple years ago I got bitten trying to break up a fight. I was reacting and not thinking and I got in the middle of two massive dogs fighting. It ended with me getting 11 stitches on my arm, and no way to tell exactly who done it. No that's not right, I did it by not approaching the fight properly. Needless to say it scared me and I started taking him on long leashed walks only. Occasionally I set up play dates with dogs I know he's good with. I've slowly been trying to take him back to the off leash parks but I'm finding he's more reactive then ever with other dogs. He is muzzled of course, which is dangerous for him because the other dogs are getting him good.
Recently I quit my job and have decided to start my own dog walking company. I have worked for other companies in the past and I know this is the career of my dreams. But how can I have my own business if my dog is showing signs of aggression. Obviously I do not take him to the park with clients dogs, but I really need him to get over this one last thing. We have come so far and I would rearrange my whole life if I thought it would make him better. Please if anyone has any thoughts or has encounter this kind of thing before, I need your help. How can I change his dog to dog greeting? I need some new strategies


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Some dogs just aren't meant to go to dog parks and yours sounds like one of them. 

I'm truly appalled that you have repetitively taken your aggressive dog/dog selective/whatever you want to call it to the dog park when he's been known to cause issues and fight dogs repeatedly. You've been beyond irresponsible by doing this, and I'm not quite sure how you are unable to see the type of immense danger you've put both your dog and other's dogs in. 

Let go of the dog park idea and find a more suitable and safer way to exercise him. If you want your dog to be social, my suggestion is to have him interact in a neutral area with a single dog that he is already known to get along with. There is absolutely no reason for you to let your dog, knowing what you know about him, loose in an enclosed area with a bunch of other strange dogs. Just ridiculous.


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## doggykong (Feb 11, 2014)

Stay away from dog parks/dogs in general. Buy a break stick and learn how to use it. You have known the whole time that he is dog reactive/selective/aggressive but you still continue to put him into situations where he will fail. Your dog doesn't need doggy friends, it needs a responsible owner.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

Trust me when I tell you I have taken every step to make sure other dogs are safe. I came here for support and advice, and I'm shocked at how rude these responses are. My dog is muzzled and we walk through forested parks where we can move away from problems. I am not setting my dog on anyone . And neither of you have given me good advice. The more I remove him from playing other dog the worse it gets. I'm truly shocked by the venom of your remarks


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

BubbaMoose said:


> Some dogs just aren't meant to go to dog parks and yours sounds like one of them.
> 
> I'm truly appalled that you have repetitively taken your aggressive dog/dog selective/whatever you want to call it to the dog park when he's been known to cause issues and fight dogs repeatedly. You've been beyond irresponsible by doing this, and I'm not quite sure how you are unable to see the type of immense danger you've put both your dog and other's dogs in.
> 
> Let go of the dog park idea and find a more suitable and safer way to exercise him. If you want your dog to be social, my suggestion is to have him interact in a neutral area with a single dog that he is already known to get along with. There is absolutely no reason for you to let your dog, knowing what you know about him, loose in an enclosed area with a bunch of other strange dogs. Just ridiculous.


Wow. Could you have been more rude? I have taken every step to ensure the other dogs safety. I am appalled at the venom in your remarks. My dog is highly social and does not react to other dogs on leash. He does not figh every time he goes to the park. It is random and scattered. I will not give up on my dog as you would have me do. But I will look for others advice on how to socialize him while keeping him and the other dog safe


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

Rescue_lover said:


> You can always teach your dog what you want..it's all about communication & reading his behavior & correcting it before he gets to that point. You should keep your dog on a leash regardless of the rules of the park. Especially if you have a dominate dog. With that being said it sounds like you need more exercise with him before you bring him to the dog park to "play" in your case the dog park should be a reward for him not a place to drain his energy bc all the built up energy he has is being directed at other dogs & getting in to fights. When dogs greet each other it sets the whole tone of their relationship from there on out. If your dog seems alert & ready to attack you should jerk his chain to the side or tap him in his side with your hand and wait till he submits to you before allowing him or another dog to greet. If he does ever attack do not be begind him pulling his chain trying to pull him back...that will make him more aggressive and more dominate..always from the side. When a dog greets another dog they should both be alert but also calm, shy at first. what kind of exercise do you do with him now? Sounds like maybe you need a bike so he can jog/run along side of you and drain the hell out of him. This should help him listen and be better behaved. The whole dog park idea in general is nice but the issue is many owners do NOT know how to correct their dogs or handle them or read their behavior and it creates a hostile environment for them. How is your energy when you bring him to the park? Do you tense up get nervous? Do you anticipate him getting in a fight? Bc he will feel your energy and you could jut e setting him up to fail with out you even realizing. I think if you give him more exercise and then take him to a park after he might be calm enough just don't take him off the leash! And make sure you are calm & confident and think positive!!!!


Thank you that is good advice. I do ride my bike with him, and he loves it. The problem is I live in canada and there is 3inches of snow outside. I usually take him for an hour ride in the paths by my house and take him home. But maybe when the weather lightens up I will try the dog park afterwards ( muzzled and leashed). Now he gets an hour walk along the waterfront, but it's just not enough to drain him completely. He gets such joy from running through the forest, but obviously I want to work out a way for him to do that safely. Does anyone have any exercises for teaching your dog to approach another properly?


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Emma4tld said:


> Wow. Could you have been more rude? I have taken every step to ensure the other dogs safety. I am appalled at the venom in your remarks. My dog is highly social and does not react to other dogs on leash. He does not figh every time he goes to the park. It is random and scattered. I will not give up on my dog as you would have me do. But I will look for others advice on how to socialize him while keeping him and the other dog safe


My apologies if you took offense to what I said, but I did reread my response and don't find any of it to be rude. I gave you my opinion and best advice for this situation. Which is what tends to happen when you post on Internet forums asking for advice and opinions. Also, fights that occur randomly/scattered still isn't good enough. Based off what you wrote here, I feel very strongly that you should not be bringing your dog to socialize with unknown dogs under any circumstances. No one suggested that you give up on your dog. Just that you keep him away from dog parks, because as you stated, it's resulted in injury time and time again in the past, which is just so unnecessary.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Due to the breed of your dog I would be concerned if he ever hurt another dog...CC mix is a walking target. Does he have a muzzle on when he is free greeting the dogs? I would be worried that another person would have a DA dog at the park which could attack yours. Without his teeth he might not be so lucky. 

My dog isn't DA, but can be rude and too exuberant for softer dogs (likes barking in their faces if they don't want to play). I don't bring him to the park because I wouldn't want to be the owner who knowingly took a dog in that could cause a fight (he runs from aggression, but it only takes a moment) or perhaps jump on and injure another dog. 

Instead, I take him to dog meet ups with dogs he knows and whose play style matches his. That would allow you to still have him socialize with other dogs, but in a safe environment. A baseball field could even work if you don't have access to a decently sized backyard.


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## Rescue_lover (Feb 15, 2014)

http://www.cesarsway.com/dogtraining/dogwalk/Dog-Walk-Etiquette-Part-Two-What-not-to-Do


http://www.ourpack.org/dogdogintros.html


These 2 links should help some with dog greeting. The second link more so...both are good reads!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Your dog is not a good candidate for the dog park. Make "playdates" with other dogs that he knows and is good with, and stay away from leash-free areas containing strange dogs. It really is that simple.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

SDRRanger said:


> Due to the breed of your dog I would be concerned if he ever hurt another dog...CC mix is a walking target. Does he have a muzzle on when he is free greeting the dogs? I would be worried that another person would have a DA dog at the park which could attack yours. Without his teeth he might not be so lucky.
> 
> My dog isn't DA, but can be rude and too exuberant for softer dogs (likes barking in their faces if they don't want to play). I don't bring him to the park because I wouldn't want to be the owner who knowingly took a dog in that could cause a fight (he runs from aggression, but it only takes a moment) or perhaps jump on and injure another dog.
> 
> Instead, I take him to dog meet ups with dogs he knows and whose play style matches his. That would allow you to still have him socialize with other dogs, but in a safe environment. A baseball field could even work if you don't have access to a decently sized backyard.


Yes he is muzzled when freely meeting other dogs. Him getting badly hurt from challenging another dog is a big fear. As I mentioned before I have restricted him to leash walks and bike rides, but being away from other dogs has mad him worse. I wish I could clearly depict how happy and social he can be. The issue is he test the other big males, and if the other dog (rightly so) doesn't like it it's on. 
Let me be clear. My dog has never drawn blood on another dog. He has never been aggressive towards a female, or small breed dog. Only large breed and especially dog that are not fixed. That being said I've seen small breed intacked males hump dexters face, and he doesn't care.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

Thank you! I am listening to all of your advice, even if it is not what I want to hear.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Rescue_lover said:


> You can always teach your dog what you want..it's all about communication & reading his behavior & correcting it before he gets to that point. You should keep your dog on a leash regardless of the rules of the park. Especially if you have a dominate dog.





> If your dog seems alert & ready to attack you should jerk his chain to the side or tap him in his side with your hand and wait till he submits to you before allowing him or another dog to greet. If he does ever attack do not be begind him pulling his chain trying to pull him back...that will make him more aggressive and more dominate..always from the side.


No. No to all of this for a couple of reasons. First, dog/human dominance is not a thing (I'll link some resources below). Second, physical punishment is never the way to go, especially in a situation where a dog is reactive or aggressive. All that does is make the dog associate other dogs with the correction. If every time a dog sees another dog, its owner jerks it by the neck and forces it to "submit," pretty soon it's not going to want to see other dogs at all and often will become _more_ aggressive toward them as a result.

The Dominance Controversy (by Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS)
De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory (by Pat Miller, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, CDBC)
Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog (by Dr. Ian Dunbar)
AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals (with citations)
Leader of the Pack (roundup of various other articles)
Wolf expert L. David Mech's site (explaining how the notion of the "alpha wolf" is outdated)

Also, if you'd read the OP's post, you'd see that this dog's issues were _caused_ by its previous owner using force and punishment. Suggesting the OP use techniques like that is misguided, to put it mildly.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Rescue_lover said:


> If your dog seems alert & ready to attack you should jerk his chain to the side or tap him in his side with your hand and wait till he submits to you before allowing him or another dog to greet.


Instead of using force (which can cause redirection, etc) what you're trying to explain is having your dog focus on YOU instead of the other dog....the same thing can be done with treats, distance from the cause, and simple positive training.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Perhaps I missed something, but I'm confused about why your dog's aggression is a problem for starting a dog walking business. Couldn't you take your dog out separately from clients' dogs?

Punishment/force is definitely *not* the way to deal with his issues. You might try working with a positive reinforcement-based trainer or behaviorist on his aggression, but it doesn't sound as though he will be dog park (or even off-leash park) appropriate.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> No. No to all of this for a couple of reasons. First, dog/human dominance is not a thing (I'll link some resources below). Second, physical punishment is never the way to go, especially in a situation where a dog is reactive or aggressive. All that does is make the dog associate other dogs with the correction. If every time a dog sees another dog, its owner jerks it by the neck and forces it to "submit," pretty soon it's not going to want to see other dogs at all and often will become _more_ aggressive toward them as a result.
> 
> The Dominance Controversy (by Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS)
> De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory (by Pat Miller, CBCC-KA, CPDT-KA, CDBC)
> ...


Do you have any strategies for changing my dogs greeting behaviour? I do not want to put other dogs at risk, is there a way for me to socialize him safely using positive reinforcement?


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Rescue_lover said:


> The "alpha wolf" will never be outdated! The problem is people start to treat their dogs more and more like humans. This is terrible and sad for a dog. A dog is a dog and will never be a human. A human is a human and will never be a dog. You can't combined the two & never will. Dogs need to be lead that's how their brain works. You need to understand a dog and a dogs physiology in order to have a well behaved dog. That's jut how it is and how it always will be.


And if you're going by "dogs are wolves", the alpha wolf doesn't usually need to ever touch the other wolves...it's done by looks, non-verbal communication, etc.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Emma4tld said:


> Do you have any strategies for changing my dogs greeting behaviour? I do not want to put other dogs at risk, is there a way for me to socialize him safely using positive reinforcement?


Do you have the ability to socialize him with other dogs that don't bother him? Like females, less imposing males, etc?


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## Rescue_lover (Feb 15, 2014)

It's not punishment for the 100th time!!!! It's a tap... Jeez it's correcting- and he won't get hurt.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

cookieface said:


> Perhaps I missed something, but I'm confused about why your dog's aggression is a problem for starting a dog walking business. Couldn't you take your dog out separately from clients' dogs?
> 
> Punishment/force is definitely *not* the way to deal with his issues. You might try working with a positive reinforcement-based trainer or behaviorist on his aggression, but it doesn't sound as though he will be dog park (or even off-leash park) appropriate.


I don't take him with clients dogs! I posted here to get a wide array of advice. As I said before I have been training him for many years now and I'm always looking for ways to make him a happy and well balanced dog. This is the one thing holding him back and I'd like to find a solution.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Rescue_lover said:


> The "alpha wolf" will never be outdated! The problem is people start to treat their dogs more and more like humans. This is terrible and sad for a dog. A dog is a dog and will never be a human. A human is a human and will never be a dog. You can't combined the two & never will. Dogs need to be lead that's how their brain works. You need to understand a dog and a dogs physiology in order to have a well behaved dog. That's jut how it is and how it always will be.


The term "alpha wolf" (in this context) actually IS outdated, which you can see if you read that last link I posted from one of the foremost wolf experts.

I agree that humanizing a dog too much is bad, and that you need to understand a dog to properly train it. However, based on your posts, a lot of your knowledge about dogs is outdated. I would suggest picking up Dr. Patricia McConnell's book "The Other End of the Leash," or at the very least reading all of the links I posted.

Emma4tld, you'll want to work on associating other dogs with good things. I'd try something similar to the Look at That game. Start with your dog far enough away from other dogs that he does not react. Praise and treat him for watching calmly. Gradually decrease the distance between him and the other dogs, not allowing him to go over threshold. Over time, he will begin to associate other dogs with treats and praise. You can do careful introductions with trusted dogs so that he only has good experiences with other dogs. He'll likely never be dog park material, though... and that's fine. Some dogs just aren't.

I have to ask, though -- why do you feel the need to have him greet the dogs he has an issue with?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Quit taking your dog to a dog park. 

He is not dog park material and should NOT be allowed to run loose with unknown dogs. Carefully selected dog friends on private property with multiple adults available to break up a dog fight, maybe. 

Your dog is at risk. You are at risk. Other dogs in the park are at risk. Their owners are at risk. Playing with other dogs is NOT worth the potential DEADLY consequences.

Dog aggression is sometimes just how a dog is. They cannot be trained out of it and _they most certainly cannot have it punished out of them_. A selectively aggressive dog can have carefully selected friend and can be trained to be safe on a leash in public where he will not be interacting with other dogs but he should not EVER be at a dog park.

Edit post: If you're looking for advice on having him out in public in general--- but not actually meeting other dogs-- search "leash reactivity links" here on the forum for various training tips


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

SDRRanger said:


> Do you have the ability to socialize him with other dogs that don't bother him? Like females, less imposing males, etc?


I could arrange some play dates with dogs he is not reactive with. But I don't have a space that is guaranteed no other dogs will enter. I live In a building by the water and with big parks.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Emma4tld said:


> Do you have any strategies for changing my dogs greeting behaviour? I do not want to put other dogs at risk, is there a way for me to socialize him safely using positive reinforcement?


Check out some of Sophia Yin's videos on desensitization and counter-conditioning. He's far past the age of socialization, so what you need to do is make him more comfortable around other dogs. Grisha Stewart's BAT may be helpful as well. Here are Links, books, blogs etc for reactive / leash aggressive dogs and similar that one of the regular folks here collected. Great information! He may never be able to have "dog friends" (and that's ok), but you may get to point where you can have a peaceful (on leash) walk with him.



Rescue_lover said:


> It's not punishment for the 100th time!!!! It's a tap... Jeez it's correcting- and he won't get hurt.


Technically, it is punishment. A consequence that reduces the occurrence of a specific behavior is the textbook definition of punishment.



Emma4tld said:


> I don't take him with clients dogs! I posted here to get a wide array of advice. As I said before I have been training him for many years now and I'm always looking for ways to make him a happy and well balanced dog. This is the one thing holding him back and I'd like to find a solution.


So, you're just looking for advice for managing your pup and it has nothing to do with your dog walking business? Sorry, just trying to clarify for my own curiosity.


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## Rescue_lover (Feb 15, 2014)

I read Caesar Milan books and everything I said he has said and done. His dogs seem very well behaved and have a love and respectful for each other and him. Nothing outdated on my end


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Emma4tld said:


> I don't take him with clients dogs! I posted here to get a wide array of advice. As I said before I have been training him for many years now and I'm always looking for ways to make him a happy and well balanced dog. This is the one thing holding him back and I'd like to find a solution.


I think it great that you have worked hard on training him but I would like to say that dog parks or even "dog friends" are NOT necessary to have a "happy and well balanced" dog. He can be completely content not playing with other dogs. He may even prefer it to the stress of a potential fight. 

Personally, I wouldn't take even a very laid back and friendly Cane Corso (or pit bull or Dogo etc) to a dog park. The breed alone puts the dog at risk even if he is the victim of an attack.

Oh, and EDIT TO ADD:
Your dog being reactive or selectively aggressive does not in any way reflect negatively on your ability to handle clients dogs for a dog walking business IF your dog never meets a client's dog(s) AND you quit taking him to off-leash parks in a well meaning but misguided attempt to make him get along with other dogs.

You cannot control your dog's innate reaction to certain types of dogs, you can only control what situations you chose to put him in and if someone continues to take a known reactive/DA dog into off-leash dog park type areas, that's where I'd lose trust in them as a dog walker or dog sitter.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Rescue_lover said:


> I read Caesar Milan books and everything I said he has said and done. His dogs seem very well behaved and have a love and respectful for each other and him. Nothing outdated on my end


His dogs are likely shut down; read a bit about learned helplessness and dog body language. You might read a little more about dogs and dog training from other authors as well. Many have significantly better credentials than Milan. Here's a Reccomended reading... list.


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## Rescue_lover (Feb 15, 2014)

Thanks! Will do...how do you repost what someone wrote and have it appear in the blue background?


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Rescue_lover said:


> Thanks! Will do...how do you repost what someone wrote and have it appear in the blue background?


to the right of their comment (at the bottom) is a Reply with quote....hit that on their post and it will quote it for you


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Rescue_lover said:


> I read Caesar Milan books and everything I said he has said and done. His dogs seem very well behaved and have a love and respectful for each other and him. Nothing outdated on my end


You just proved my point.  Cesar Millan is no expert -- he's a reality TV star with shiny teeth and no dog-related certifications who has spread a lot of misinformation about how to properly handle and train dogs. I don't want to derail this thread, so I won't get into it further here, and there's not much use debating with you anyway when you won't even read the links I posted. You have to understand both sides to properly debate any topic.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

cookieface said:


> Check out some of Sophia Yin's videos on desensitization and counter-conditioning. He's far past the age of socialization, so what you need to do is make him more comfortable around other dogs. Grisha Stewart's BAT may be helpful as well. Here are Links, books, blogs etc for reactive / leash aggressive dogs and similar that one of the regular folks here collected. Great information!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, the advice is for me. It has nothing to do with my business, only that I would like to be able to resolve all of his issues. I suppose now that I've been out in the parks again with clients dogs, I want the same for my own. But not at the risk of other dogs or mine. I realize him being in the park now, even muzzled is dangerous. I'm looking for steps and exercises to get him back in the park and greeting dogs respectfully.


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## Rescue_lover (Feb 15, 2014)

Thanks!!


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Rescuelover: Cesar Millan's response to aggressive, bitey dogs is to stick his face and hands near their mouth. Does that seem like common sense to you? He is an entertainer and an entrepreneur. Maybe his methods work for him but there is a reason his show is preceded by a "Do Not Attempt without the presence of a licensed animal behaviorist".

Emma: Hi from Canada! Even if you think that the safety of other dogs is not a concern, you need to think of the safety of your dog. Say a golden retriever gets into an off-leash scrap with a pitbull / cane corso / (insert bully breed here). Now, it's your word against theirs. Who do you think will foot the vet bills, the golden retriever mom or the cane corso mom? Who's dog is going to be put down for aggression? If the attack makes the news, who are people gonna blame? If (god forbid) that happens, you are seriously screwed, especially as a dog-walker.

It's not your dog's fault that he is the way he is but you need to be protective of him, even if he can take care of himself. If he gets ahold of some nutso little toy breed, all it will take to make your dog a killer is one shake. Heck, he could cause a small dog serious injury by even TRIPPING over it, muzzled or no. 

Lastly, especially as an entrepreneur you need to use courtesy to dog owners in your area. Even with a muzzle, he can still be intimidating (in fact, often moreso) to other park users. When he has the park off-leash, be mindful of how other people are reacting. Are you cutting anyone's park-time short by hanging around off-leash? As the 'nanny' of an over-exuberant greeter, I have had to realize that as a courtesy to others I have to watch out with where I am letting a hyper, jumpy, bouncy, off-the-wall lab run (and believe me, I hear you when you say you have drain it to train it!). There are simply times when, due to the size, age, or nature of those around you in the park that you just have to snap the leash on and give them a friendly smile and a wave to let them know that they don't have to keep one eye on your dog as they go about their business in the park.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

Thank you to everyone for your advice. It seems old school and new school have collided here. I believe that exercise and calm energy have a great effect as Cesar Milan suggests, but from my experience positive reinforcement is the only way to rehabilitate your dog. You get what you give, so the more negative you give your dog the more you WILL get back. Thank you for all the great links! Knowledge is power, and the more I learn the more I am fascinated at a dogs ability to understand and communicate with us . I defiantly do not want to put anyone in harms way. So I will heed your warnings and focus on controlled social occasions with dogs he loves


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Positive reinforcement is actually old-school, too. We're just seeing a resurgence lately as more and more studies are done about how dogs learn. 

Glad that you'll focus on having him socialize with dogs he loves! That's less stressful for him and for you, and will still allow him to burn a lot of energy and enjoy himself.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Rescue_lover said:


> It's not punishment for the 100th time!!!! It's a tap... Jeez it's correcting- and he won't get hurt.


I'm curious to know what exactly you mean by "correcting".

Tapping (especially in the areas that CM does)/yanking on choke chains has a negative effect on the dog. The dog responds to the stimulus because it is an unpleasant feeling, therefore catches their attention. If you are tapping to "correct" it means you are implying it fixes some sort of behavior, but I do not see this as having an influence on the dog's behavior if it is not either positively or negative associated. Something that does NOT affect the dog positively or negatively will not get a response out of said dog.


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## Rescue_lover (Feb 15, 2014)

taquitos said:


> I'm curious to know what exactly you mean by "correcting".
> 
> Tapping (especially in the areas that CM does)/yanking on choke chains has a negative effect on the dog. The dog responds to the stimulus because it is an unpleasant feeling, therefore catches their attention. If you are tapping to "correct" it means you are implying it fixes some sort of behavior, but I do not see this as having an influence on the dog's behavior if it is not either positively or negative associated. Something that does NOT affect the dog positively or negatively will not get a response out of said dog.


I'm honestly getting frustrated trying to explain myself. I simply posted what I read in a book from a dog trainer & I feel like many ppl have taken to this negatively. I see nothing wrong in correcting your dogs behavior weather it's through positive reinforcement,tapping him on his side by his butt, etc. I will say my choice of words in my first thread were poor and I could have explained it a little better. When I wrote "jerk" on the leash I really ment a slight/light pull to the side. Again, I don't really see it being an issue. For all you dog walkers that have dogs that "pull" you when you walk and practically choke themselves I find that more harmful that what I'm trying to explain.

When I say correcting I mean snapping them out of what they are focused on. For example, when my dog gets in his stance like he is about to attack my cat, I'll simply give him a quick touch on his side and by me touching him he then focuses on me & forgets about the cat. It works every time!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Rescue_lover said:


> I'm honestly getting frustrated trying to explain myself. I simply posted what I read in a book from a dog trainer & I feel like many ppl have taken to this negatively. I see nothing wrong in correcting your dogs behavior weather it's through positive reinforcement,tapping him on his side by his butt, etc. I will say my choice of words in my first thread were poor and I could have explained it a little better. When I wrote "jerk" on the leash I really ment a slight/light pull to the side. Again, I don't really see it being an issue. For all you dog walkers that have dogs that "pull" you when you walk and practically choke themselves I find that more harmful that what I'm trying to explain.
> 
> When I say correcting I mean snapping them out of what they are focused on. For example, when my dog gets in his stance like he is about to attack my cat, I'll simply give him a quick touch on his side and by me touching him he then focuses on me & forgets about the cat. It works every time!


Most people don't consider using positive reinforcement as "correcting" but more like "redirecting" -- as in, set the dog up for success by preventing behaviors you don't want and rewarding those behaviors that you do want. Like a dog chewing on furniture, instead of a reprimand, you redirect the dog to a chew toy and reward the dog when he chooses the appropriate chew toy on his own. 
You might have meant to say a slight pull on the leash, but since you wrote "jerk on the leash" people are going to respond to what you wrote. We aren't mind readers 

People are taking it negatively because your dog trainer source book does mean it negatively. CM style corrections are physical punishment. 

In your example of your dog being about to attack the cat, I can almost bet that if he truly wanted to attack your cat, you touching his side would do nothing unless that touch had previously been paired with a far stronger reward or punishment. 

I too will touch my dog's side or butt to ask him to move forward or sideways or to get his attention in a noisy area but it isn't a gesture meant to stop him from doing anything he is strongly driven to do. 

A dog aggressive dog is not going to back down by touching the dog's side. Corrections- collar pops or even a raised voice-- can ramp up a dog even more. Physical punishment tends to add to dog reactivity rather than lesson it.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

Rescue_lover said:


> I'm honestly getting frustrated trying to explain myself. I simply posted what I read in a book from a dog trainer & I feel like many ppl have taken to this negatively. I see nothing wrong in correcting your dogs behavior weather it's through positive reinforcement,tapping him on his side by his butt, etc. I will say my choice of words in my first thread were poor and I could have explained it a little better. When I wrote "jerk" on the leash I really ment a slight/light pull to the side. Again, I don't really see it being an issue. For all you dog walkers that have dogs that "pull" you when you walk and practically choke themselves I find that more harmful that what I'm trying to explain.
> 
> When I say correcting I mean snapping them out of what they are focused on. For example, when my dog gets in his stance like he is about to attack my cat, I'll simply give him a quick touch on his side and by me touching him he then focuses on me & forgets about the cat. It works every time!


Don't take it personally. You ve unknowing stepped into a highly controversial topic. 20years ago no one would have blinked at your suggestion, but now we know that the old system had many flaws. Most dog trainers these days use operant conditioning to train their dogs. They have found their dogs to be infinitely smarter and happier using these techniques. I've found some advocates of positive reinforcement to be aggressive and condescending in insisting they are right. They are right, but it wouldn't hurt to take a kinder gentler approach. Let's not fight! Let's educate! Everyone experience is different and valid in context.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

Emma4tld said:


> Don't take it personally. You ve unknowing stepped into a highly controversial topic. 20years ago no one would have blinked at your suggestion, but now we know that the old system had many flaws. Most dog trainers these days use operant conditioning to train their dogs. They have found their dogs to be infinitely smarter and happier using these techniques. I've found some advocates of positive reinforcement to be aggressive and condescending in insisting they are right. They are right, but it wouldn't hurt to take a kinder gentler approach. Let's not fight! Let's educate! Everyone experience is different and valid in context.


I do not mean to offend anyone with this comment. By no means do I mean all positive reinforcement trainers. It's a passionate debate. Woe to those who step in the cross fire. Shell, SDRranger, Crantastic and cookieface, thank you for the great advice. I've been going through all the links and are finding them very helpful.


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## Rescue_lover (Feb 15, 2014)

If you don't know what your doing then yes it can make the dog worse, especially when you don't have the proper energy. I'm a big believer in your energy with dogs. Every time I redirect my dogs attention I tap him with my finger tips on his side by his butt. It has never been "paired" with a "reward or punishment." It works every single time with him. Even when he wants to dart across the yard to chaise the deer.(he is a hunting breed) I wouldn't consider it "physical punishment". I am not toching him out of frustration/anger/anxious. just simply redirecting his focus. when I hear that term I think of harsh circumstances & makes me think more of hitting your animal where it hurts him. Which is never EVER okay. But, I understand what you guys mean by it.


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## Rescue_lover (Feb 15, 2014)

Thank you, Emma. I agree!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It's great that it works with your dog, but you have to be very careful when giving advice on a forum, because techniques that have worked with your dog may not work with other dogs, or people may misinterpret your words (for example, someone could think that you mean to jerk the leash very hard rather than tug on it). We tend to suggest positive methods only most of the time here, both because we think they work best and because if the person asking for advice does things wrong, they are unlikely to harm their dog or put themselves in a dangerous situation.

Also, in a situation where a dog is over threshold, a touch is going to do nothing. Read about thresholds here.


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## Emma4tld (Feb 15, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> It's great that it works with your dog, but you have to be very careful when giving advice on a forum, because techniques that have worked with your dog may not work with other dogs, or people may misinterpret your words (for example, someone could think that you mean to jerk the leash very hard rather than tug on it). We tend to suggest positive methods only most of the time here, both because we think they work best and because if the person asking for advice does things wrong, they are unlikely to harm their dog or put themselves in a dangerous situation.
> 
> Also, in a situation where a dog is over threshold, a touch is going to do nothing. Read about thresholds here.


Great article!


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Emma4tld said:


> Thank you to everyone for your advice. It seems old school and new school have collided here. I believe that exercise and calm energy have a great effect as Cesar Milan suggests, but from my experience positive reinforcement is the only way to rehabilitate your dog. You get what you give, so the more negative you give your dog the more you WILL get back. Thank you for all the great links! Knowledge is power, and the more I learn the more I am fascinated at a dogs ability to understand and communicate with us . I defiantly do not want to put anyone in harms way. So I will heed your warnings and focus on controlled social occasions with dogs he loves





Crantastic said:


> It's great that it works with your dog, but you have to be very careful when giving advice on a forum, because techniques that have worked with your dog may not work with other dogs, or people may misinterpret your words (for example, someone could think that you mean to jerk the leash very hard rather than tug on it). We tend to suggest positive methods only most of the time here, both because we think they work best and because if the person asking for advice does things wrong, they are unlikely to harm their dog or put themselves in a dangerous situation.
> 
> Also, in a situation where a dog is over threshold, a touch is going to do nothing. Read about thresholds here.





Emma4tld said:


> Great article!


Seconded. A lot of dogs out there would happily hang themselves when they are 'past the threshold', especially exciteable puppies and 'driven' dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Rescue_lover said:


> Every time I redirect my dogs attention I tap him with my finger tips on his side by his butt. It has never been "paired" with a "reward or punishment." It works every single time with him.


If it has never been connected with either a reward or punishment, then that is what I am saying--- I doubt he is truly driven to attack that cat if only a touch is enough to redirect him without something further in his mind. You may be redirecting him early enough in his attention, but basically, I think that if a dog wants to attack another animal badly enough a simple touch won't do anything no matter what your energy is unless the dog has been previously trained that either something way better or way worse will occur if he continues to attack. 

I completely agree on not reacting towards the dog out of frustration or anger and agree that dogs do pick up on your mood but a good mood alone isn't training either. 

So I prefer the "way better" approach where attention to me and redirection away from the prey is highly rewarded.

As far as reactive or aggressive dogs go, I think that a human's desire for a dog to have "friends" can be misguided. Sometimes the aggression is fear based, sometimes it is just that dog's personality but a dog that is reacting aggressively towards another dog is not happy, not content and not relaxed. While I think it is important to work towards keeping a dog's attention and keeping him under threshold around other dogs in public places, I also think that if a dog is getting bloodied at a dog park on a regular basis then it is a big sign that the park is a not a happy place for that dog.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Rescue_lover said:


> I'm honestly getting frustrated trying to explain myself. I simply posted what I read in a book from a dog trainer & I feel like many ppl have taken to this negatively. I see nothing wrong in correcting your dogs behavior weather it's through positive reinforcement,tapping him on his side by his butt, etc. I will say my choice of words in my first thread were poor and I could have explained it a little better. When I wrote "jerk" on the leash I really ment a slight/light pull to the side. Again, I don't really see it being an issue. For all you dog walkers that have dogs that "pull" you when you walk and practically choke themselves I find that more harmful that what I'm trying to explain.
> 
> When I say correcting I mean snapping them out of what they are focused on. For example, when my dog gets in his stance like he is about to attack my cat, I'll simply give him a quick touch on his side and by me touching him he then focuses on me & forgets about the cat. It works every time!


I'm not trying to personally attack you so if I came off that way, I apologize. Just wanted clarifications because I did not understand what you meant by "correcting" because in general, when people say "correct" they usually mean that the dog is reprimanded in some way to avoid the behavior from happening again (i.e. they are allowed to "make the mistake" and then they are told that this is not an unacceptable behavior, VS in r+ training where you would "set the dog up for success" by giving them ONLY the correct option and then rewarding them for it).

But I do tend to agree with others suggesting a more positive approach. If I see a dog zeroing in on another animal, preparing for some sort of an aggressive response, I would not go and touch the animal because I would not want a redirected bite -- I learned this the hard way (I used to be all for Cesar before I knew better). I personally just don't think leash popping and physically manipulating the dogs is necessary in 99% of the cases.

ETA: Sorry to derail your thread, OP!

I would suggest trying to find other playmates that you know would be a better personality match.

I don't expect my dogs to get along with all dogs, just like how I don't expect myself to get along with all people.

I would maybe work on his "leave it" or his recall and make it extremely solid so that when he is in a "stand off" you can just call him away (my dog sometimes reacts the same way as your dog... except he is 7 lbs so he can get hurt very easily if he is doing this to a much larger dog -- I just tell him "leave it" if he is reacting badly, and he stops whatever he is doing and will come back to me for guidance). I also do not suggest going to dog parks for the reasons already posted. I would set up play dates instead.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Emma4tld said:


> As I said before I have been training him for many years now and I'm always looking for ways to make him a happy and well balanced dog. This is the one thing holding him back and I'd like to find a solution.


 Sometimes I think we have to understand what a dog's limitations are, as well as our own limitations as trainers. Once we understand this, we can go on to live harmoniously within those limitations. It's all part of the learning process, when - despite our greatest efforts, our hopes, our dreams - we come to accept things for what they are, and are truly satisfied at that. Which in my opinion signifies passage and not failure.

Hoping this doesn't sound too preachy. Just trying to provide a little food for thought with regards to expectations.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Rescue_lover said:


> Every time I redirect my dogs attention I tap him with my finger tips on his side by his butt. It has never been "paired" with a "reward or punishment." It works every single time with him.


 Must make for one heck of a spooky environment for your dog to be living in. Same as a shake can that comes out of nowhere to startle a dog when he least expects it. Sure, it'll stop your dog from doing *whatever*. But overall it's poor communication at best, and extremely damaging to any trust you've built, at worst.

Even if paired with punishment, one could at least argue it establishes basic communication. However, leaving things open-ended with no consequence as you seem to be doing, will likely accomplish nothing except an increase in fear and mistrust.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Sometimes I think we have to understand what a dog's limitations are, as well as our own limitations as trainers. Once we understand this, we can go on to live harmoniously within those limitations. It's all part of the learning process, when - despite our greatest efforts, our hopes, our dreams - we come to accept things for what they are, and are truly satisfied at that. Which in my opinion signifies passage and not failure.
> 
> Hoping this doesn't sound too preachy. Just trying to provide a little food for thought with regards to expectations.


I completely agree with you here. Some dogs just can't be around other dogs...sometimes its selective, sometimes it isn't. No matter how much you try, sometimes that is the limit for that dog, and part of working with him is managing the limitations. Some dogs just aren't ok in some situations, and part of successful training is recognizing those limitations and working with them. Not reaching some of the goals you wan't with your dog is by no means a failure, recognizing limits is a success too. 

As for the CM discussion, IMO, go ahead and read his books, watch his shows, but only if you take the time to read and watch other trainers and keep an open mind to everyone's process (meaning, CM is NOT a god), then put things together that work for you AND for your dog. Don't put your 100% stock in him (or any trainer for that matter). Chances are, after that, most of his theories and practices will go by the wayside, and hopefully the ones that don't are the few of his that aren't really that bad (ie: exercise is important for your dog, staying calm is important), I don't think there are many trainers out there whose "formula" works for everyone and everyone's dogs, he is no exception.


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