# Bull Mastiff is one giant scab.. HELP....



## emiller (Jan 18, 2008)

Hi, I've returned to my Vet 5 times with my bull and her skin problem. I'm going next week to a new vet but thought I'd post this and see if anyone has a similar situation. My bull mastiff is almost 5 years old and I would say her overall health is very good. This whole situation started with an oval spot about as big as a silver dollar right in the middle of her throat. This spot was what I would call a hot spot, it was noticable warmer than the rest of her body. Anyway this round spot actually would weap a fluid and all the hair totally fell out. Since then the hair will grow back and when it starts looking normal it will start the whole process over again. This started about the time we took her in for her first ACL replacement (probably has nothing to do with it). Anyway the surgeon thought it was from her collar and recommended we also change her food in case it was caused by allergies. Switched her food from pedigree to Merrick. Neither helped the situation although her neck isn't nearly as bad as it first was. Now the scabs.. That started about the time she had her second ACL replaced. Her first one was on the top of her back by her hips. It was about quarter size and appeared for no reason. When the scab fell off it looked like a bright red boil (red marble) and all the hair in that round area was gone. The redness left and the hair eventually grew back. Then she started getting more and now whe has them all over, face, feet, mouth, entire body. She even looses like dime size pieces of her pads on the bottom of her feet which bleed everywhere, and she's always licking her feet.. She really doesn't seem to scratch, well no more than usual and isn't in any pain from them that we know of. I know this is long but I'm on a roll. She has always had cronic ear infections which are doing much better now. Her vet has never done any blood work on her and has treated her for fungal infections, she is on cephalexin 500mg and ketoconazole 200mg. We got our mastiff from the rescue three years ago and would do absolutely anything for her but finding a vet that wants to figure this out is a challenge.. One rather gross habit she does have is eating other animal feces,, expecially duck and rabbit (not a pretty site..).. Thanks for any ideas or help..


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

My first thought would be to see a veterinary dermatologist. They will do a complete work up including skin scrapings, biopsies and bloodwork. You should come away with a more definitive answer as to what the problem is and how to keep it under control. 

My GSD has allergies/skin issues and it wasn't until he saw a dermatologist that I got any kind of real answer and treatment recommendation.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Some skin problems can also be food related. I'd look at the ingredients on the food.

Common sources of problems are:

Corn, Wheat, Beef, BHA, BHT, too many more that I can't remember. I hope you find out what the problem is. Keep us updated.


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## emiller (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks,, Yes we have another appointment this wednesday with a allergy/dermatologist Vet.. The first thing we tried was to change her food, Merrick is suppose to be the best and she did nothing but get worse. Hopefully this vet will at least try to figure out the cause rather than throw a pill at it. Thanks again,, i'll let you know the outcome..


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

You may also want to look into homeopathy. Do you have any holistic vets in your area?

I don't know much about Merrick but I've heard it's a good brand.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Even if Merrick is a good food you may have to find one with an alternate protein source such as fish or bison or venison. 

Before you go to the vet, make sure you have all the information with you. If you have copies of the records of treatment so far it will help the vet alot. Also if you can bring a copy of the ingredient label of the food you're feeding that will also be helpful. 

Good luck. Let us know how you make out.


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## emiller (Jan 18, 2008)

Visited a new Vet today and we're happy that she seems to actually want to find the problem not just throw medicine at us. They took blood and are doing some sore of viral test,, next week they will take a skin graph. They seemed very concerned and willing to help find a cure or at least the cause. The words steroids and chemo came out and left us speachless.. We'll have initial test results tomorrow,, oh their also checking her thyroid..


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Good to hear. WHy chemo? Do they think it might be autoimmune?


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

Glad to hear you had a good experience with the vet. Keep us posted.


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## vabird (Jun 5, 2007)

This sounds much worse than a food allergy. Did they take a skin biopsy? Did they mention pemphigus? Pemphigus is an auto immune disease. It is generally treated with high dose steroids initially and chemotherapy drugs. My black lab had pemphigus and at her worst looked just like your description.


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## Orange County Ca (Apr 6, 2007)

I wouldn't get too worked up over giving a dog steroids. My Vet had one on them for seventeen years without any effect.
I'd use steroids if the new Vet says so before letting the dog continue like he is.


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## emiller (Jan 18, 2008)

Hey everyone,, the results from the punch biopsies are in. Our girl has Cutaneous and mucosal epitheliotropic lymphoma (mycosis fungoides). According to the paperwork our Vet gave us the prognosis is generally guarded to poor due to poor response to chemotherapy and generally progressive nature of the disease.. We have an apointment with another Vet who is a clinical oncologist. Anyone familiar with this form of cancer????


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Wow, I've never heard of that. I wanted to say I'm sorry though and wish you luck. Fungoides sounds fungus related. I have read of some dogs responding well to fungal infections and cancers through a diet change. Have you got a holistic vet you could contact? Have you ever considered switching to RAW or BARF foods? I have heard of a lot of supposedly incurable diseases being managed in this way.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

No experience but I wanted to wish you well. Chrissy is right - consulting a holistic vet might also help.


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## emiller (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks. I've never heard of that type of Vet.. I'll have to do a search on it. Thanks again.


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## phuti (Feb 27, 2008)

emiller said:


> Hey everyone,, the results from the punch biopsies are in. Our girl has Cutaneous and mucosal epitheliotropic lymphoma (mycosis fungoides). According to the paperwork our Vet gave us the prognosis is generally guarded to poor due to poor response to chemotherapy and generally progressive nature of the disease.. We have an apointment with another Vet who is a clinical oncologist. Anyone familiar with this form of cancer????


Yes I do unfortunately. Our dog died of mycosis fungoides (cutaneous epitheliotophic T-cell lymphoma), which means, we put him into sleep.
At the time our dog was diagnosed, I searched the internet and all kind of message boards for treatments and how to handle. I've been to a professor in my country who's the expert at dermatology. It's quite a rare disease. In my own language I couldn't find any experiences on the internet, that's how I find this message board although english is not my native as you may notice.

The professor prescribed prednisone for tingling. For the spots I used Cortavance, but use this poorly, since it weeked the skin off (!) at some time with our dog. I also used an ointment which is prescibed for hot spots without steroids. (has no further reaction of the skin) However, it's a progressive disease as you already know. We didn't choose for chemo, because he was already 12 years old and chemo is eventual no cure. It will only extend his life for about 6 months.

At some time I bought cotton dipers to make dogcloths of it, because the spots were wet and became larger and covered all over the skin. I tried to keep the dog dry, sort of. MF only appeared in the skin, nowhere else, which is quite unusual due to the professor.

I've read somewhere fatty acids will help, though the professor wasn't excited about that. He only said to treat only when the treatment doesn't cause pain. After all, I agree with that. Give her a good time for what's left for her. You can't stop the process. 

I wish you well and good luck for your dog!


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## emiller (Jan 18, 2008)

Thanks.. We chose not to give her chemo,, and have her on the steroids now. For the last two days we noticed when she lays down her breathing becomes raspy almost as if she's struggling to breathe,,, also she was shivering... Now she ONLY does this when she lays down, as soon as she gets up she's fine.. She also now drinks about 7 bowls of water per day,, I assume this is due to the steroids..


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm so sorry to hear this, I'll keep your girl in my prayers. PM if you need anything.


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## emiller (Jan 18, 2008)

Hello everyone. We took our mastiff into the vet mainly due to her breathing and shivering. They x-rayed her lungs and found that the cancer had spread to her lungs. We had no choice but to let her go. It certainly never gets any easier to loose someone you love.


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## Sugar Daddy Otis (Jan 9, 2008)

I am So sorry to hear this- I've been following your story and was actually just wondering how she was. It definitely never gets easier losing them, does it? You are in my thoughts and prayers - just know you did the best you could for her and she is now romping around and playing with all the others we have lost. I am so sorry.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm so sorry, no, even when you think you're prepared, you find you're not. She's in no pain now, it was the right thing to do.


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## Orange County Ca (Apr 6, 2007)

*I hope this helps*

Hope this helps:

http://home.rochester.rr.com/tasa/if_it_should_be.htm


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## Kris L. Christine (Feb 4, 2008)

Was your mastiff vaccinated when it went in for surgery? If so, it could be having an adverse reaction to the vaccine. I agree that you should consult a veterinary dermatologist.

Please read the information contained in the 2 following posts to see if your dog's symptoms match:

*Ischemic Dermatopathy / Cutaneous vasculitis*

*A little known and often misdiagnosed reaction to the rabies vaccine in dogs, this problem may develop near or over the vaccine administration site and around the vaccine material that was injected, or as a more widespread reaction. Symptoms include ulcers, scabs, darkening of the skin, lumps at the vaccine site, and scarring with loss of hair. In addition to the vaccination site, lesions most often develop on the ear flaps (pinnae), on the elbows and hocks, in the center of the footpads and on the face. Scarring may be permanent. Dogs do not usually seem ill, but may develop fever. Symptoms may show up within weeks of vaccination, or may take months to develop noticeably.*

Dogs with active lesion development and / or widespread disease may be treated with pentoxyfylline, a drug that is useful in small vessel vasculitis, or tacrolimus, an ointment that will help suppress the inflammation in the affected areas.

*Owners and veterinarians of dogs who have developed this type of reaction should review the vaccination protocol critically and try to reduce future vaccinations to the extent medically and legally possible. *At the very least, vaccines from the same manufacturer should be avoided. It is also recommended that the location in which future vaccinations are administered should be changed to the rear leg, as far down on the leg as possible and should be given in the muscle rather than under the skin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_of_dogs 
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*A retrospective study of canine and feline cutaneous vasculitis*
Patrick R. Nichols**Animal Allergy and Dermatology Center of Central Texas, 4434 Frontier Trail, Austin, Texas 78745, USA 
Daniel O. Morris††Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Hospital, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce St., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104, USA and 
Karin M. Beale‡‡Gulf Coast Veterinary Dermatology and Allergy, 1111 West Loop South, Suite 120, Houston, Texas 77027, USA
*Animal Allergy and Dermatology Center of Central Texas, 4434 Frontier Trail, Austin, Texas 78745, USA †Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Hospital, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce St., Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104, USA ‡Gulf Coast Veterinary Dermatology and Allergy, 1111 West Loop South, Suite 120, Houston, Texas 77027, USA
Correspondence: Daniel O. Morris, Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Hospital, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce St., Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA. E-mail:[email protected]
Abstract

Twenty-one cases of cutaneous vasculitis in small animals (dogs and cats) were reviewed, and cases were divided by clinical signs into five groups. An attempt was made to correlate clinical types of vasculitis with histological inflammatory patterns, response to therapeutic drugs and prognosis. Greater than 50% of the cases were idiopathic, whereas five were induced by rabies vaccine, two were associated with hypersensitivity to beef, one was associated with lymphosarcoma and two were associated with the administration of oral drugs (ivermectin and itraconazole). Only the cases of rabies vaccine-induced vasculitis in dogs had a consistent histological inflammatory pattern (mononuclear/nonleukocytoclastic) and were responsive to combination therapy with prednisone and pentoxifylline, or to prednisone alone. Most cases with neutrophilic or neutrophilic/eosinophilic inflammatory patterns histologically did not respond to pentoxifylline, but responded to sulfone/sulfonamide drugs, prednisone, or a combination of the two.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.0959-4493.2001.00268.x
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Vitale, Gross, Magro (1999) 
*Vaccine-induced ischemic dermatopathy in the dog *
Veterinary Dermatology 10 (2), 131–142. 
doi:10.1046/j.1365-3164.1999.00131.x 

Prev Article Next Article 
Full Article
Vaccine-induced ischemic dermatopathy in the dog
Vitale, 
Gross & 
Magro
1Department of Medicine and Epidemiology, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, California 95616, USA, 2IDDEX Veterinary Services, California Dermatopathology Service, 2825 KOVR Drive, West Sacramento, California 95605, USA, 3Department of Pathology, Beth Israel Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Pathology Services, Inc., 640 Memorial Drive, Cambridge, Massuchusetts 02139, USA 
Correspondence to: Carlo B. Vitale 
Present address: Encina Veterinary Hospital, 2803 Ygnacio Valley Road, Walnut Creek, California 94598, USA.
Abstract
*Post-rabies vaccination alopecia associated with concurrent multifocal ischemic dermatopathy was identified in three unrelated dogs. All dogs received subcutaneous rabies vaccine dorsally between the scapulae several months prior to observation of the initial area of alopecia at the vaccination site. *All three dogs developed multifocal cutaneous disease within 1–5 months after the appearance of the initial skin lesion. Cutaneous lesions were characterized clinically by variable alopecia, crusting, hyperpigmentation, erosions, and ulcers on the pinnal margins, periocular areas, skin overlying boney prominences, tip of the tail, and paw pads. Lingual erosions and ulcers were observed in two dogs. Histopathologic examination of the skin revealed moderate to severe follicular atrophy, hyalinization of collagen, vasculopathy, and cell-poor interface dermatitis and mural folliculitis. Hypovascularity was demonstrated by diminished Factor VIII staining of blood vessels. *Nodular accumulations of lymphocytes, plasma cells, and histiocytes in the deep dermis and panniculus also were noted at the rabies vaccination site. An atrophic, ischemic myopathy paralleling the onset of skin disease was identified in two dogs.* Histological examination of muscle biopsy specimens demonstrated perifascicular atrophy, perimysial fibrosis, and complement (C) 5b-9 (membrane attack complex) deposition in the microvasculature of both dogs with myopathy. Marked improvement of the skin disease was obtained with oral pentoxifylline and vitamin E. 

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1365-3164.1999.00131.x


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## Kris L. Christine (Feb 4, 2008)

A continuation of the post above.

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The Armed Forces Institute of Pathology 
Department of Veterinary Pathology 
WEDNESDAY SLIDE CONFERENCE 
2002-2003 

CONFERENCE 19 
26 February 2003 

Conference Moderator:
Dr. Michael Goldschmidt, MSc, BVMS, MRCVS Diplomate, ACVP 
Professor, School of Veterinary Medicine
University of Pennsylvania 
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6051 

CASE II - 2513-02 (AFIP 2839301) 

Signalment: 5-year-old, male, castrated, canine, Chihuahua 
History: One by three cm lesion on the dorso-lateral neck 
Gross Pathology: None 
03WSC19 - 2 - 
Laboratory Results: None 

*Contributor’s Morphologic Diagnosis: Post-rabies vaccination alopecia with injection site granuloma and panniculitis *

Contributor’s Comment: The hair follicles are markedly atretic and their lower portions are replaced by an eosinophilic, hyaline stroma. The deeper dermis also has a cleft or seroma pocket that is partially lined by a thin layer of foamy macrophages and multinucleated giant cells with more peripheral lymphoid nodules with many scattered dermal macrophages, lymphocytes and plasma cells. Scattered melanin-laden macrophages (positive with Fontana-Masson melanin stain and negative for hemosiderin with a Prussian blue stain) are in the hyalinized lengths of the hair follicles with a few beneath the epidermal basement membrane (pigmentary incontinence). 

*This is post-rabies vaccination alopecia with an underlying injection site granuloma. Post-rabies vaccination alopecia is most commonly seen in toy or small breeds, especially Poodles, but Chihuahua cases have been reported. The lesion usually develops three to six months after vaccination. *

Other reports describe mild to severe lymphocytic inflammation with macrophages in the superficial or deep dermis or scattered around hair follicle remnants. The dermis may have smudging of the collagen, especially around the hair follicles. Rabies vaccine antigen has been found in the hair follicle epithelium and in the walls of vessels in the area. One report of focal alopecia developing in all twelve of twelve inbred miniature Poodles injected with a killed rabies vaccine two months earlier suggest that there may be a familial predisposition to this apparently idiosyncratic, hypersensitivity reaction to the antigen. 

http://www.afip.org/vetpath/WSC/wsc02/02wsc19.pdf
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Article entitled, *ISCHEMIC SKIN DISEASE IN THE DOG* by Dr. Peter J. Ihrke, VMD, DACVD 
Professor of Dermatology, Chief, Dermatology Service, VMTH, Department of Medicine & Epidemiology, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA, USA presented at the World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2006 Congress (article accessible at http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2006&PID=15765&O=Generic).

The following are quotes from Dr. Ihrke's presentation:

*3. Localized post-rabies vaccination panniculitis (Post-Rabies): A localized ischemic skin disease associated with a rabies vaccination site and temporal link with the vaccination.

4. Generalized vaccine-induced ischemic dermatopathy (GVIID): A generalized ischemic skin disease with a temporal linkage with rabies vaccination, but with more severe generalized post-rabies vaccination-associated disease.*

*2. Post-rabies vaccination associated disease is presumed to be due to an idiosyncratic immunologic reaction to rabies antigen that partially targets vessels. Rabies viral antigen can be documented in the walls of dermal blood vessels and in the epithelium of hair follicles via immunofluorescent testing. Since this syndrome is seen predominantly in very small dogs, it is tempting to speculate that the disease may be partially linked to increased antigenic load in comparison to the body size of the dog, since the same volume of rabies vaccine is given to all dogs subcutaneously. *

*Initial lesions--an alopecic macule or plaque develops at the site of prior subcutaneous rabies vaccine deposition. The time between vaccination and noting of the lesion usually is between one and three months. *
__________________________________________________________________________
http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2004&PID=8602&O=Generic 

*Cutaneous Vasculitis and Vasculopathy*
Verena K. Affolter 
School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis
Davis, CA, USA

*" Immune-mediated vasculitis is typically triggered by an adverse drug reaction (antibiotics, nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medications, vaccines,...."

"Vaccine-induced vasculitis is mainly seen in small breed dogs...."

"Acute vasculitis--Legs and feet, ears, lips, tip of the tail, scrotum, and oral mucosa are mostly affected. These areas are more vulnerable as their blood supply has limited collateral circulation. With cutaneous vasculitis erythema, ecchymoses, areas of necrosis, and well-demarcated, "punched out" ulcers, and occasionally hemorrhagic bullae and/or pustules are seen. Erythema caused by vasculitis does not blanche with diascopy because of extravasation of the red blood cells. Subcutaneous vasculitis presents as nodular lesions. Systemic vasculitis causes variable clinical signs depending on the organ systems involved: phasic pyrexia, lethargy, anorexia, myalgia, arthralgia, lymphadenopathy and nasal discharge are seen. Wide spread systemic vasculitis may progress into shock and disseminated intravascular coagulation.
Chronic vasculitis--Less severe or slowly progressive vasculitis results in low-grade ischemia. Clinically these cases become evident at a chronic stage. Patchy alopecia, scaling, erythema and hyperpigmentation are seen. Lesions typically involve the pinnae, face, feet and tip of the tail often occurring over pressure points." *

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
* Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots*--on Page 16 of the* 2003 AAHA Guidelines* under *Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety*, it states that: * "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "*
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*Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know*, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm 

*World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines* http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htmScroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF) 

The *2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines *are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The *2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines *are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Kris, Please see post # 19


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## Kris L. Christine (Feb 4, 2008)

Emiller,

I am so sorry to have skipped the later posts, maybe it's just that after my experience with Meadow, I can't face what you've just had to go through.

Dogs are such an incredible treasure in our lives, it is agonizing to lose them. No one prepares us to make these important decisions, but you loved your mastiff and made the best choice you could.

All of us on the forum who have been through this before know just how painful a time this is for you and are sending you healing thoughts.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

This is the first I saw this thread. I am so sorry for your loss EMiller. Your dog was lucky to have you. Not everyone goes above and beyond for their dogs. It doesn't make it easier, but rest assured you did all that you could for her. My thoughts are with you.


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## XD Collisium (Sep 17, 2008)

emiller said:


> Hi, I've returned to my Vet 5 times with my bull and her skin problem. I'm going next week to a new vet but thought I'd post this and see if anyone has a similar situation. My bull mastiff is almost 5 years old and I would say her overall health is very good. This whole situation started with an oval spot about as big as a silver dollar right in the middle of her throat. This spot was what I would call a hot spot, it was noticable warmer than the rest of her body. Anyway this round spot actually would weap a fluid and all the hair totally fell out. Since then the hair will grow back and when it starts looking normal it will start the whole process over again. This started about the time we took her in for her first ACL replacement (probably has nothing to do with it). Anyway the surgeon thought it was from her collar and recommended we also change her food in case it was caused by allergies. Switched her food from pedigree to Merrick. Neither helped the situation although her neck isn't nearly as bad as it first was. Now the scabs.. That started about the time she had her second ACL replaced. Her first one was on the top of her back by her hips. It was about quarter size and appeared for no reason. When the scab fell off it looked like a bright red boil (red marble) and all the hair in that round area was gone. The redness left and the hair eventually grew back. Then she started getting more and now whe has them all over, face, feet, mouth, entire body. She even looses like dime size pieces of her pads on the bottom of her feet which bleed everywhere, and she's always licking her feet.. She really doesn't seem to scratch, well no more than usual and isn't in any pain from them that we know of. I know this is long but I'm on a roll. She has always had cronic ear infections which are doing much better now. Her vet has never done any blood work on her and has treated her for fungal infections, she is on cephalexin 500mg and ketoconazole 200mg. We got our mastiff from the rescue three years ago and would do absolutely anything for her but finding a vet that wants to figure this out is a challenge.. One rather gross habit she does have is eating other animal feces,, expecially duck and rabbit (not a pretty site..).. Thanks for any ideas or help..


My dog had the same problem. her scab fell off but grew back in an hour (weird). but now it's growing. She is 14 years old and has athritus (sorry if I mispelled her condition). she probably doesnt have much time left.


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