# Puggles



## farmgirl543e (Nov 7, 2006)

I was just curious about these desinger puppies and how it works I mean take puggles for instence you breed a pug and a beagle to get a puggle so if you get a puggle and one day wanted to breed it to have puppies what do you breed it with and the same thing with goldendoodles what do you breed those with i am just curious so if anyone knows let me know lol thanks


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

If you want my opinion... you don't.  You get your dogs spayed and neutered and don't buy into the whole "Designer Breed" thing. They're mutts. They're still lovable, cute and adorable dogs, but they're still a mutt, and, IMO, breeding them is irresponsible. And paying $500-$1500 for one is idiotic.

I have nothing against mixed breeds. Most of the dogs I've owned have been mixes. But they were also from shelters and rescues, not breeders or pet stores. If you want a mixed breed dog, that's the way to get one. Not by financially rewarding an irresponsible breeder. And you'd be saving a life.


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## dogluver101 (Jul 6, 2006)

I totally agree with you there. I don't believe in designer breeds either. They are mutts just like a newfoudland and a sheltie mix just with a cutesie name. If you are just breeding to get more "designer" dogs then don't. Just get them spayed/ neutered. Getting your mixed breed cutely named dog from a irresponsible breed or puppymill is just incourging them to do it more. It won't stop it but it helps.


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## mistee06 (Oct 28, 2006)

i have a bunch of these "designer" dogs in...when people surrender them..in tow with their puppies we are told that the pups are "shelabs" (sheppard labs), rotterdoodles (oh yes...rotti/poodles)... huskapoos (husky/ poodles) ...in total today at the shelter we have 31 one of these "cute" puppies...so in my opinion, they shouldnt be bred...because i can take a pit bull mixed with a lab and call it a "laberpit" anytime...its just a name...it doesnt mean its better then any other mix in the world..


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## carriedenaee (Nov 14, 2006)

*designer dogs*

well from what i understand when you mix breeds like a ****zu and poodle and get a sitzapoo, if you breed it with another ****azapooit is half ****z and half poodle as long as both parents were half ****z and half poodle....if you have a ****zapoo that is half ****z and half poodle and breed wiht a poodle it would become 1/4 ****z and 3/4 poodle...and vise versa...breeding it with a ****z would make the pups 1/4 poodle and 3/4 ****z..so it depends on what you want...if you want a puppy that is 3/4 poodle and 1/4 yorkie for instance...you can breed a yorkiepoo with a poodle and have that....but there is no garunteethat because the puppies are 3/4 poodle that they will have dominate poodle traits....the yorkie traits can still dominate...thus the reason mixing breeds is not recomended...some breeds mixed turn for the worse and i dont approve....but some people try to get the best of both breeds without considering the backfires that can happen..hope this helps!!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I don't know, maybe we should be amused by what people get when they mix breeds. 

For example:
Cross a Pointer with a Setter and get a Poinsetter, a traditional Christmas pet. 
Cross a Kerry Blue Terrier with a Skye Terrier and get a Blue Skye, a dog for visionaries. 
Cross a Pekingnese with a Lhasa Apso and get a Peekasso, an abstract dog. 
Cross an Irish Water Spaniel with an English Springer Spaniel and get an Irish Springer, a dog fresh and clean as a whistle! 
Cross a Labrador Retriever with a Curly Coated Retriever and get a Lab Coat Retriever, the choice dog of research scientists. 
Cross a Newfoundland with a Basset Hound and get a Newfound Asset Hound, a dog for financial advisors. 
Cross a Terrier with a Bulldog and get a Terribull, a dog that makes awful mistakes. 
Cross a Bloodhound with a Labrador and get a Blabador, a dog that barks incessantly. 
Cross a Collie with a Malamute and get a Commute, a dog that travels to work. 
Cross a Deerhound with a Terrier and get a Derriere, a dog that's true to the end! 

Or maybe we should just be amused with the thoughts alone, and not breed mixes!


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

I know that I may be in the minority and I don't know if a cockapoo would be considered a "designer breed", but I do know that there is a big push to make this a true breed. A first generation cockapoo would be bred from a cocker spaniel and a poodle. A second generation cockapoo would be cockapoo to cockapoo and so on down the line. A "cockapoo" is not a true cockapoo if a breeder is trying to breed cockapoo to poodle or cockapoo to cocker spaniel.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

atldoglover said:


> I know that I may be in the minority and I don't know if a cockapoo would be considered a "designer breed", but I do know that there is a big push to make this a true breed. A first generation cockapoo would be bred from a cocker spaniel and a poodle. A second generation cockapoo would be cockapoo to cockapoo and so on down the line. A "cockapoo" is not a true cockapoo if a breeder is trying to breed cockapoo to poodle or cockapoo to cocker spaniel.


 IMO, a cockapoo can never be made into a true breed until they stop mixing Cocker's and Poodles and start consistantly breeding Cockapoos to Cockapoos. And then those Cockapoos/Cockapoos have to have consitantly the same traits, and their pups do, and then their pups' pups do, etc. They also have to have all of their health tests done, a breed standard, etc. You don't see people breeding Cattle Dogs by mixing Dingos, Bull Terriers, Damlmations, and the other breeds that make up the Cattle Dog.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Just so we don't put the language filter in overdrive or confuse anyone who may think there is swearing going on, it is spelled "Shih Tzu." >^^;<


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## blackgavotte (Sep 28, 2006)

atldoglover said:


> I know that I may be in the minority and I don't know if a cockapoo would be considered a "designer breed", but I do know that there is a big push to make this a true breed. A first generation cockapoo would be bred from a cocker spaniel and a poodle. A second generation cockapoo would be cockapoo to cockapoo and so on down the line. A "cockapoo" is not a true cockapoo if a breeder is trying to breed cockapoo to poodle or cockapoo to cocker spaniel.


There is no genuine " big push " to recognize these crossbreeds any more than any other crossbreeds. It takes an enormous amount of time, record-keeping, money and influence to create a new breed. There also has to be a reason for the breed being created. I guarantee cockapoos, peekapoos, etc, (which, by the way, were already being touted when I first started working at grooming shops and vets in the mid 60's ,) won't be recognized any time soon as purebreds. And that's how it should be.


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## Meghan&Pedro (Nov 6, 2006)

I work at a pet store, and have for over five years. I have seen 'mutts' become designer dogs, first hand, and man does it ever tick me off!

I LOVE mutts, some of my favorite dogs are mutts, HOWEVER there are LOTS of cross-bred dogs that need homes (not so many little ones, especially in my community which is dominated by seniors who live in condo's), and we shouldn't be breeding more.

YES right here and right now there IS a demand for these 'designer' breeds of little dogs.

If you put "Small puppies!" up in a for-sale add in my community you get LOTS of responses - everyone wants a 'pocket pet' because it's really a trend. 

But 10 years from now (probably sooner!) all of these dogs are going to be in the shelters with the rest of the crossbreeds once the fad dies down.

Do any of you remember the pot-bellied-pig fad of the 1970's? We all know how well THAT went. Same thing with these 'designer dogs'.

Most of these crosses aren't even CONSISTANT - you never know what the puppy is going to look like! You might LOVE one 'malti-poo' and go out to buy a maltipoo, and end up with a dog that looks NOTHING like the dog you origionally liked - what do you do then? 

What REALLY is ticking me off recently is the THREE and FOUR way crosses that are for sale for $1500.00!!! ESPECIALLY when people can't even spell the name of the breeds that they are selling.
ie - lazza apzo X peekinesse puppies X maltease

I know that, like I said before, there IS a market for these dogs right here and right now. So I can understand that people are breeding them ( I don't condone it, but I understand why they are). There are a few local 'breeders' who are breeding a specific crossbreed (such as a 'puggle' or a 'malti-poo' and are health testing, guarenteeing health on the puppies with a lifetime guarentee etc, etc, and are breeding nice temperament dogs. I don't have a real hard solid problem with THEM.
It's every other jack and jane out there that are breeding their dogs just because they have a small breed dog that they could cross with another small breed dog WITHOUT testing for health, without taking into consideration temperament, and without thinking about anything but money, money money!!

UGh a hot topic for me!!!


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

blackrose said:


> IMO, a cockapoo can never be made into a true breed until they stop mixing Cocker's and Poodles and start consistantly breeding Cockapoos to Cockapoos. And then those Cockapoos/Cockapoos have to have consitantly the same traits, and their pups do, and then their pups' pups do, etc. They also have to have all of their health tests done, a breed standard, etc. You don't see people breeding Cattle Dogs by mixing Dingos, Bull Terriers, Damlmations, and the other breeds that make up the Cattle Dog.


You are absolutely right...That is what true "cockapoo" breeders are doing. And, there are health tests, breed standards, etc. Many people don't like it, I can understand that- but that still doesn't mean that it isn't happening.


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## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

blackgavotte said:


> There is no genuine " big push " to recognize these crossbreeds any more than any other crossbreeds. It takes an enormous amount of time, record-keeping, money and influence to create a new breed. There also has to be a reason for the breed being created. I guarantee cockapoos, peekapoos, etc, (which, by the way, were already being touted when I first started working at grooming shops and vets in the mid 60's ,) won't be recognized any time soon as purebreds. And that's how it should be.



Actually, there is a "genuine" big push, but you would only know about it if you were truly interested in the breed, as I am. I cannot speak about the other breeds, only cockapoos, because that is where my interest lies. You are correct, the mid 60's was the beginning of cockapoos and in the past 10 years, there have been serious minded persons who are interested in making them an official breed. And, you do have a right to your OPINION, as do I.


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## ilovemypuppyPatron (Feb 1, 2007)

*puggles!*

I own a puggle.. I love him. he has the best personality! and he's only 3 months old. my best friend bought his sister, she's a lot more hyper but when it comes time to sleep they are the best cuddlers! myabe it's only because they are puppies but I hope it stays like that forever.


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

OK. With all due respect to the purists here...I just don't get the big problem with mixed or "designer" breeds? How exactly are they going to end up in the shelter more than any other kinds of dogs?
To my way of thinking, a family who seeks out a certain type of dog, pure or mixed, is less likely to give up their pet after time. Whether it's a pure bred or mutt, if the people are ready for a dog, they will be responsible. How does the "designer" thing cause more of a problem? I've seen lots of pure bred pitties and retrievers in the shelters. 
Has anyone done a study on what the most common reasons are for dogs being put into shelters? Seriously, I haven't seen many maltipoos or cockapoos, but lots of larger breeds.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Kerry said:


> OK. With all due respect to the purists here...I just don't get the big problem with mixed or "designer" breeds? How exactly are they going to end up in the shelter more than any other kinds of dogs?
> To my way of thinking, a family who seeks out a certain type of dog, pure or mixed, is less likely to give up their pet after time. Whether it's a pure bred or mutt, if the people are ready for a dog, they will be responsible. How does the "designer" thing cause more of a problem? I've seen lots of pure bred pitties and retrievers in the shelters.
> Has anyone done a study on what the most common reasons are for dogs being put into shelters? Seriously, I haven't seen many maltipoos or cockapoos, but lots of larger breeds.


I agree. I also have seen many pure bred dogs in shelters. I think the problem is the people buying them and then tossing them to a shelter. I have a Malti-Poo and a Pure Bred Shih Tzu. I do not care if the Malti-Poo is ever a "reconized breed" or not . I thought he was cute and my hubby is not allergic to him and I like poodles and Maltese dogs. And he is only 5 months and I dont care what he looks like when he gets older. 

If people just kept the dogs no matter what the breed than we would not have the shelter problem

And (yes another and) why are we being so nit picky? Who cares if the owner can spell the breed they bought or not? So long as he keeps, loves and cares for him properly I do not think the breed makes a difference.

Except for who ever posted the correct sp for SHih Tzu, so we dont get in trouble for swearing... that was funny.

And, just kidding no more ands.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Kerry said:


> OK. With all due respect to the purists here...I just don't get the big problem with mixed or "designer" breeds? How exactly are they going to end up in the shelter more than any other kinds of dogs?
> To my way of thinking, a family who seeks out a certain type of dog, pure or mixed, is less likely to give up their pet after time. Whether it's a pure bred or mutt, if the people are ready for a dog, they will be responsible. How does the "designer" thing cause more of a problem? I've seen lots of pure bred pitties and retrievers in the shelters.
> Has anyone done a study on what the most common reasons are for dogs being put into shelters? Seriously, I haven't seen many maltipoos or cockapoos, but lots of larger breeds.


There are three major reasons why designer dogs are a problem.

1. A designer dog is a mutt or some obscure derivation of a dog. The world doesn't need more mutts. Are you aware of the current dog over population problem? Have you been to your local shelter recently? Do you know about all the dogs that are euthanized on a daily basis? If you bring a mutt into the world as a designer dog or teacup, or whatever, that's one less home available for that dog sitting in a shelter.

2. There are no breed standards for designer dogs. How can one prove their breeding program is producing what they say they are producing without a breed standard? Why would I buy a dog if you have no means to prove you're giving me what you say you're giving me. If you don't understand what I'm referring to, I'm referring to conformation or trials that are judged by impartial judges. 

3. There are no genetic tests available for mutts. If you can't test your dogs for genetic defects, how do I know you're not giving me a dog with genetic abnormalities. Granted, genetic testing is not a 100% guarantee, but who is more responsible? The breeder who does the genetic testing available to them, or the one who doesn't? DA makes a point on this that I tend to agree with...if a breeder isn't willing to do everything they can to prove the worth of their breeding program, what other shortcuts are they taking in their breeding program? I don't know, and I don't want to find out. 

Yes there are purebreds at shelters. However, these dogs come from the same BYB personality that make designer dogs. Because a reputable breeder has a contract specifying what happens to the dog should you ever need to give it up. This alone does not make a BYB a reputable breeder. What I don't get is why breeders want to experiment with genetics when there already so many wonderful breeds available to us. Maybe you can help explain that point.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

If there are too many dogs already and so many in the shelters (which I do agree there are a lot waiting for homes) then maybe purebred breeders should not breed so many either. Maybe only breed enough just to keep the breed from going extinct. and do you really know there is not way to do a genetic test on the "designer Mutts"????

I know many people who swear mutts have less health problems that the pure breds. Are they right? I do not know. but maybe they are. 

I did not get either of my dogs from a shelter but before I got mine I did look in the shelters and I did not see anyone that would suit my family.

If there are too many dogs already and so many in the shelters (which I do agree there are a lot waiting for homes) then maybe purebred breeders should not breed so many either. Maybe only breed enough just to keep the breed from going extinct. and do you really know there is not way to do a genetic test on the "designer Mutts"????

I know many people who swear mutts have less health problems than the pure breds. Are they right? I do not know. but maybe they are. 

I did not get either of my dogs from a shelter but before I got mine I did look in the shelters and I did not see anyone that would suit my family.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

peace36 said:


> If there are too many dogs already and so many in the shelters (which I do agree there are a lot waiting for homes) then maybe purebred breeders should not breed so many either. Maybe only breed enough just to keep the breed from going extinct. and do you really know there is not way to do a genetic test on the "designer Mutts"????


I do know, it's a fact. Why? Because no one in their right mind would spend the money needed to develop these tests. The combinations of mutts possible would never make this a feasible possibility. You have to understand the basics of genetics to understand that what I'm saying is in fact true. The problem isn't a purebred vs designer dog (mutt) issue, and what proves to be the better dog. A dog is a dog, and they're all great. It's about what's more responsible and what's better in the long term for the health of all dogs. I suggest that gambling with genes is not responsible. 



peace36 said:


> I know many people who swear mutts have less health problems that the pure breds. Are they right? I do not know. but maybe they are.


They are wrong. Where do you think the genes came from? If you can't test for it, how do you know you're not making the problems worse? Which dog do you prefer?...the one who's been tested?...or the one who a breeder "hopes" is clean? 



peace36 said:


> I did not get either of my dogs from a shelter but before I got mine I did look in the shelters and I did not see anyone that would suit my family.


I'd say you didn't research enough, or weren't willing to look hard enough. I'd also say that if you paid for a designer dog, you got ripped off. What does the term "designer" mean in your mind? Value? Quality? Proof of either?


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## corsomom (Dec 30, 2006)

I would just like to add a responsible breeder does not just crank out litter after litter. They also rescue. They keep close track of their pups and sell on a spay/nueter contract.


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## Brandy101bbb (Jan 23, 2007)

I think there should be harder laws on breeders I think that they should have to register as breeder ever year and pay a tax or registration fee. I think that anyone who gets a dog and does'nt register should HAVE TO have there dog fixed. I think any breeder selling puppies should have to ask upfront if they will be registering and if the buyers says no the breeder should get the puppies fixed before placing the puppy. I think there should be hefty fines for people who don't fix puppies and who breed illegally.And I think that a breeder should only be allowed to have maybe one or two litters per breeed a year, this way its not out of control. This will weed out backyard breeders. I also think it should be a law that all puppies have to have gentic tests and things like that. The cost of puppies would go up because the breeders would have to pass on the cost of these things to the purchaser but that would not only weed out bad breeders but also bad owners. And everyone who breeds says they don't breed for money they do it for the breed so it should'nt be a problem with breeders to follow these rules. I think vets should be a monitor if a dog comes in and is'nt fixed there should be a way to look up a registration and if that dog is not registered then they turn the owner in. And that may cause some people to stop taking there pets to vets but then when an animal is brought to the pound same thing, the people bringing the pups or dogs in will be turned in. They could add it to the misrochip you scan it look it up and it tells if the dog is a regestered breeding dog or not. I just think that these kinds of things would not happen as much anymore.

Its not a matter of pure is better then mutt, its a matter of why breed more dogs when we have so many in shelters and if we stop most of the cross breeding and put a maxium number of litters on breeders we would have less dogs in shelters, and the ones in there would probably find homes much quicker, because alot of people would not want to pay the high prices on dogs that are bought straight from a breeder, that has to charge higher prices to pay for the registration and having the dog fixed, alot of people would go to the shelters to get a cheaper but just as wonderful dog. Think about it!


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## sobreeze (Oct 31, 2006)

*a good breeder*

a good breeder does not breed just because they have two registered purbred dogs a good breeder looks at each dog they have to see if it fits the breed standards for that breed and does these two dogs have any thing to offer this breed in improving said breed if not it is pet quality i have bostons 3 purbreds 2 already fixed i have a female 6 month old will be fixed soon she is a great looking dog fits all breed standards does she need to be fixed yes she does not offer her breed enough to be making more pups can i make sure all her pups would have forever home no so she will never have pups there are a lot of people that breed purbreds that do not have a clue as to that breeds standards mutts have no breed standard you can not test if you do not know where that breeds weakness is eyes legs heart hips you get the picture i raise karakul sheep about 2500 in the usa they are a rear breed i have a little over 40 head i know what i am breeding for i know my breed standard if lambs dont meet this standard they are not breeding stock sheep can go to market you can eat the ones that dont meet standards we do not eat dogs or at least i hope it never get to that point but we do put thousands of dogs and cat to sleep every day purbred and mutts people cant even be responsable for there human children why do you have so much faith in them careing for there dogs or her 8 mixed breed pups yes they are cute but they grow very fast into dogs need food love shelter vet care training a safe place do they get it some yes most no i have a hard time going in shelters i see so many dogs that would make great pets but it seems most folks want that fad pair of jeans the new in video game a cool new car a new fad breed of dog till it get old and the next fad comes into play cars get traded in games get put on shelves dogs get foregotten in back yard or taken to pound or shelter but maybe i dont know what i am talking about as if i make a commitment to a animal it is a longterm commitment just my thoughts


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Well, according to the going definition, the breeder I got Orchid from was and is very reputable. 

I got her specifically because I wanted to show her. 

However, if I had to do it over again to get a pet quality dog, I'd go the same way. 

I like to know exactly what is in the genes of my pet, because I have a heads up if anything goes wrong. 

I like to know that the breeder I chose to buy from will be there for me, every step of the way- from showing to agility to stud choice and whelping IF it ever comes to that. 

I like knowing that my breeder is a respected member of our local breed club. It means she's more likely to breed to standard, and breed healthy dogs because she has more to loose. 

Some people obviously don't care about those things, yet those people still buy and breed dogs. 

And, consumers will continue to be fooled by these breeders, and continue to buy subquality dogs that will continue to end up in shelters. 

Sad, but that's the way of it.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I do know, it's a fact. Why? Because no one in their right mind would spend the money needed to develop these tests. The combinations of mutts possible would never make this a feasible possibility. You have to understand the basics of genetics to understand that what I'm saying is in fact true. The problem isn't a purebred vs designer dog (mutt) issue, and what proves to be the better dog. A dog is a dog, and they're all great. It's about what's more responsible and what's better in the long term for the health of all dogs. I suggest that gambling with genes is not responsible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry I do not know how to take out small portions of some one elses posts to respond to them.

Anyway I never called them designer dogs before. From what I am reading it seems to me that a designer dog means different breed pure bred dogs are bred together to get a malti-poo or puggle or I think you get what I am thinking. To me they are what people used to call mutts I guess it just sounds nicer.

I paid $200 for my malti-poo and $300 for my shih Tzu. I had "mutts" growing up and they lived and died one at the age of 13 yrs and the other 14yrs old. No wierd or out of the ordinary health issues so really I think alot of a mutt.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

People need to be more responsible when it comes to breeding their dogs.
I got my first dog Chloe, a maltese toy poodle mix from an elderly lady who lived near some family of mine. The lady had a maltese who was not fixed and when her friend passed on she took in her dog an un-spayed female poodle. They had two litters before they were both fixed. 
I offered to take Chloe and find her brother and her sister a home for free if she would let me get the mother and father fixed and she agreed.
About three weeks ago Chloe (who is now almost five) and I discovered two puppies in a cardboard box in the field behind my house underneath a bunch of bushes. It was snowing out and they were practically frozen. The female is ok and is now living with me (we named her Sadie) but unfortunately for her brother, he was much to sick and we had to euthanize him. I asked the vet what kind of dog he thought they were and he said they looked like a cocker spaniel and poodle mix. Now because some jerk decided to breed their dog to get a so called "designer breed" and couldn't sell them because they were probably to high priced he got rid of them like they were a posession or a material thing instead of a living thing. They were treated like garbage and tossed to the way side. 
I think people need to get their dogs spayed or neutered right away and not breed them unless they are serious and educated. You can't just breed your dog because you have a girl sheperd and your neighbour has a boy sheperd and you want puppies because puppies are soo cute and cuddly and your sure other people will want a cute a cuddly puppy to. Thats not fair and it is one of the reasons we have this BSL crap, because of stupid people who don't know anything about breeding dogs and so their pups have behaviour problems which are worsened by the stupid people who buy the dogs so that they can intimidate other people. Its just one big nasty cycle.
DON'T BREED YOUR DOGS FOR MONEY ITS CRUEL!!!!!!!!! and BSL blows big time!


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

I recently got a puggle puppy from a breeder after months of research and I paid (gasp!) $700 for him. That's right, $700 for a mutt. I joined this forum to share my excitement about my new puppy and the first thing I came upon was this thread. My excitement disappeared in an instant. Let me explain to you why I decided upon a "mutt" and not a purebred dog...which I know must seem like a crazy, outrageous decision to most of you.

From the beginning, I wanted a cute, friendly, sweet-tempered, small apartment dog who is not a barker and is good with other animals/children. All qualities that are difficult to find in small/toy purebred dogs, unfortunately. I had initially thought of purchasing a chihuahua but quickly learned that they are generally a yappy breed and are not good with strangers, children, or other dogs. Nope, not what I was looking for. I found something wrong with all of the other small purebred dogs that I looked at as well. I asked for suggestions at other dog forums but the breeds didn't fit what I was looking for either in temperament or in looks.

Then I learned about puggles, found that they are adorable, and did extensive research which proved that they matched every quality that I was looking for in a dog. I don't care if they're not purebred. Temperament/personality is far more important to me! I wasn't looking for a show-quality dog, just a best friend and companion. 

Please note that I did check out Petfinder.com first and there were no available puggles for adoption in my area (I just looked again for the heck of it and there are still none). In fact, I was unable to find any local puggle breeders; I had to have one shipped to my area. Additionally, I am a first-time dog owner and didn't really want to take my chances with a potentially problematic dog from the shelter when I had zero dog experience up until now. Maybe later in life, when I'm more familiar with dog training techniques, behavior, etc but I'm definitely not ready for that now. That's why I did my research and found a reputable puggle breeder who had lots of references in order to ensure a sweet, friendly, socialized puppy. What's wrong with this? I found the perfect dog for me and he just happens to be a mutt rather than a purebred dog...so what??? Why do purebred dog lovers have to make me feel guilty about owning a puggle?? I love him and would NEVER give him away to a shelter. The whole "designer dog" thing means nothing to me...if a type of dog is perfect for you, whether it be a mutt or a purebred dog, isn't that the most important thing? And wouldn't you be willing to pay $ for the perfect dog? I don't know about you, but I would...

Thanks for letting me vent  Hopefully you guys will be accepting of my puggle enough to let me share a few pictures or stories now and then. Because I really am excited about having this little guy in my life! Especially since I've never owed a dog before, so every day I learn something new from him.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

I'm glad you found the right dog for you; however, a "puggle" is NOT a breed, its a mutt. You probably could have found a simliar puppy at the shelters! For a lot less.

But what's done is done - you spent far more then you should have (lesson learned). My advice to you is to help educate others to NOT be buying into the whole designer dog market - its a big rip off. Please have your pup spayed or neutered as soon as possible and love him regardless.

The thing is that these mixes don't always wind up being the type of dog "claimed" - they can vary so much in size, type, etc. - no consistancy as to what they will turn out. That's the problem - and that's the main reason you see them sitting in shelters.

Cockapoos, Pekeapoos, Puggles, Labradoodles - ALL designer dogs - NOT a breed at all - call them what they are - mixed breeds or mutts, but NOT breeds.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Shelter dogs are not ONLY there because they have temperment or health problems. Many times, it's the oweners fault. Here are some common excuses: 

"We're moving"
"Little Johnny is allergic." 
"Yeah, I should have gotten Susie spayed, and now I just can't find homes for her pups." 
"I just move into an apartment that won't take dogs." 
"The breeder let me take two pups, and now I can't handle either of them." 

I know you probably did what you thought was best, but it seems to me that you just didn't give the rescue organizations a chance to help you, and that you had your mind made up far before you picked out a dog. 

Also, I really doubt that there are too many reputable breeders in the "puggle" industry. 

One of my big problems is that puggles aren't a good combo of random genetics. Beagles like to run all day. They're hounds, and that's what hounds do. 

Pugs aren't energetic. They really can't be, because just as with other brachycephelic dogs (think mastiffs and bull dogs) over heating, or hot weather in general can cause the dogs to go into respitory distress. 

So you have a dog that has the energy to run all day, but that has other physical characterictics that would make that very dangerous for it. 

IN my opinion, a good breeder wouldn't put two dogs together that didn't fit well. 

And, on the other aspects, I agree with Keno's mom. 

Truly, I wish you the best of luck with your puppy. I'm glad that you're excited about it. Just take care of your little friend, and post some pictures for us.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

*Keno*

Did you even read the post you responded to? She said she new it was a mutt. and she(or he?) also said she checked shelters and petfinder and so on.

Doglover congrats on your new Puggle baby. I heard they are great pups with a wonderful temperment and pretty darn cute to boot


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I think you would be suprised, peace, at the dogs that you will find in shelters. 

Last month in our shelter, we had two labradoodle puppies come in from the same litter. 

So, there are designer dogs in shelters just as there are other types of dogs. 

Also, with the hundreds of types of pure bred dogs, you can't tell me that the poster couldn't find ONE that they liked. 

Not only that, but if you'll read my post there are many reasons a dog is in a shelter. Not only because of temperment or health issues. 

So I'll back up Keno's mom on this one.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Interesting discussion. I have little to add, except to share a picture of a Puggle I met at the dog park last year. He's running with my favorite Shar-Pei. The Puggle was very cute and social. I was appalled when the owner told me what she'd paid for him (I probably would have kept that to myself) but she seemed very pleased with the little guy. He did have an odd respiratory problem, kind of a reverse sneeze, that she told me was characteristic of Puggles.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Snowshoe said:


> I think you would be suprised, peace, at the dogs that you will find in shelters.
> 
> Last month in our shelter, we had two labradoodle puppies come in from the same litter.
> 
> ...



I looked in shelters too. I wanted a smaller puppy. I did not want to bring an older dog into my home. I wanted the puppy grow up and get used to my children that way. Yes, maybe I could have waited and waited and looked for a longer amount of time and maybe I could have found a puppy and maybe I would have waited for nothing. My husband has allergies to certain breeds also so that was another factor. I am not going to say there are no good or great dogs in shelters I visit them and donate items even now when I am not looking to adopt. I have occasionally seen small breed dogs in shelters but very rarely have I seen small breed puppies and If you are looking for a specific breed or mutt it is not likely I would find one.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

A lot of shelters and rescues don't list *every* dog they get on Petfinder. Many have waiting lists for specific breeds, sizes, genders, etc. and they get adopted before they can even get around to uploading a picture and posting a description.

Just randomly popping into a shelter every couple weekends, you're not likely to find what you want. Develop a rapport with the shelter employees, so they know what you're looking for, or research rescues and contacting them about what requirements you have (good with kids? good with cats? high energy? low energy? good watchdog? lazy couch potato?), and you will find what you want.

I couldn't find what I wanted in shelters. But I kept an eye on petfinder, noticed which rescues updated frequently and seemed to do a lot for their dogs, and contacted a few. Some completely ignored my emails and applications and that's fine. One of them emailed me back same day, said they'd check to see how the dog I liked was with cats, and contacted me a few days later to let me know she would not be good with them, but to let them know if there were any other dogs I was interested in, and they'd let me know when they got anything new in. It took a while. It was probably a month from the first time I applied to when I actually brought home my dog, but he was worth the wait. I got exactly what I wanted, and the satisfaction of knowing I'm helping save lives. (Once a dog is in rescue, he's pretty safe, but adopting him lets the rescue save other dogs.)


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

_world doesn't need more mutts. Are you aware of the current dog over population problem? Have you been to your local shelter recently? Do you know about all the dogs that are euthanized on a daily basis? If you bring a mutt into the world as a designer dog or teacup, or whatever, that's one less home available for that dog sitting in a shelter._

Not a strong argument. The world doesn't need any more pure pitties or goldens, either. And they keep on coming into the world. Those "reputable" breeders do it for money, not much different from a pet store.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

You're right. There's too many dogs of all kinds in shelters. 

But truly reputable breeders aren't anything like pet stores. A pet store or byb will sell to whoever has the money. A good breeder has a screening process and contract similar to those of a rescue. They decide who gets the puppy and will require the owner to return the dog to the breeder if they need to rehome it.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I agree with you, Lorina. 

It's up to the puppy buyer. As a consumer, it's their responsiblity to do the research. 

If someone buys from a less then reputable breeder ie someone who doesn't do health testing, doesn't show/ or otherwise title their animals, or usually worse, they don't care about temperments, then it's the consumer's fault. 

There are lots of great placed in the internet that can guide a person to the "right" kind of breeder or to the "right" kind of rescue. 

Impatience, leading to impulse buys usually don't end well for the puppies who end up turning out different then what the buyer expects. 

That's just my opinion, and I realize that not everyone will go about doing things in what I think is the "right" way.


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

It sounds good, doing it the "right" way. But I am still not convinced that there is a big difference 
Two people I know got puppies from really "reputable" breeders. Everything mentioned here on this forum was done, from the health testing to the titles to the interview to the contract....one pup had health problems down the road and the other was a crazed lunatic who was barely trainable. Both owners were experienced and responsible.

I agree that impulsively buying a dog is usually not a good idea. But the fact remains that all breeders, yes even the best ones, are looking to sell puppies and make money. It's a business. They may do an interview, but how many people are really turned away and told no?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Kerry said:


> I agree that impulsively buying a dog is usually not a good idea. But the fact remains that all breeders, yes even the best ones, are looking to sell puppies and make money. It's a business. They may do an interview, but how many people are really turned away and told no?


I would recommend asking a reputable breeder how their contract is structured and how many people they actually scare away. And is it a business, or a hobby? How many people do you know make a significant amount of money with their hobby? People seem to confuse BYB ethics with that of a reputable breeder. Money is a factor, yes, however, I would never expect a reputable breeder to breed dogs for free. They do have to cover their costs ya know. Again, if you look at the margin, and not the dollar value, no one would buy from a BYB. Anecdotal evidence about dogs supposedly produced from a reputable breeder and being flawed is no evidence to which is more responsible. It's simple, if you want more risk, and if you're not concerened for the well being of all dogs, buy from BYB...support haphazard breeding. If you want to assume less risk, if you want to supprt what is more responsible, buy from a reputable breeder. Why not help preserve the genes that make purebreds great, instead of the gamblers?. _Ahhh yes, these two look about right, lets throw them together and see what we get. Joe next door will never know the difference._ I don't know about you, but I don't want to be Joe next door who doesn't know the difference, nor would I want anybody else to be that person. Or why not take genes, pedigree, and ethics out of the equation, and adopt a homeless mutt...you'll save tons of money then.


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

The most confusing part of this dilemma is this: Breeders often look "reputable" and maybe aren't. They can adhere to criteria used to determine "reputable" and yet....*the average consumer cannot know for sure.*

The line between BYB and "reputable" is very thin.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

I agree with that opinion Kerry. I got my Shih Tzu from a Breeder. I guess I can say when I got there they were problably not reputable but like I said in another post I just could not leave with out my baby.

I can see every ones point about buying only from a reputable breeder but on the other hand I see/saw just the perfect pup for our family and to spend that kind of $ on a pure bred reputable breeder dog or a mutt made no difference to me I was not showing I just fell in love (at 1st sight) and wanted a pet.

I do not think it would be fair or right to call people like me idiots or insinuate that we were stupid for paying that kind of $ for a "mut" that "could" have future medical problems. Really, in most books it clearly states the health issues of specific breeds. Pet non-show quality dogs are just as priceless to us "desigener" dog owners as your pure bred owers.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Don't take it personally if I find it idiotic to pay hundreds of dollars for a mixed breed dog. I know people who think I'm idiotic for paying the adoption fee I did for my dog. What they think doesn't matter, because I know I did what I felt was right for my situation. You obviously did the same. You did what you felt was right for your situation.

You're entitled to your opinion just as I'm entitled to mine. Just because someone does something I find idiotic doesn't mean I think they're an idiot. I do idiotic things all the time. I just sprained my ankle imitating my dog's waddling walk.


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

I'm not in any way an expert on dogs or anything dog-related. As I mentioned in my earlier post, my puggle is my very first dog, so I have a lot to learn! However, I did do a ton of research on dogs before making my decision as to what kind to get and which breeder to buy from. To me, the puggle breeder seemed friendly and reputable because she thoroughly answered all of my questions (and trust me, I had a bunch of questions!), provided regular updates on the puppies, made sure that I had all the info I needed about puppy care and training in general, provided vet references and also references from past satisfied buyers. She also asked me a bunch of info about my situation to make sure that I was ready to welcome a new puppy into my home, had me sign a health contract, and informed me that she would gladly take the dog back if for any reason I was no longer able to care for him. Both of the puggle's parents (pug and beagle) are AKC registered.

She seems like a wonderful, caring breeder to me - I checked out her references and everyone had nothing but positive things to say about their dogs and their experience with her. This is why I used the word "reputable" when describing her but then again, I'm far from an expert on dogs, dog breeders, and the like. I don't know what other qualities I should have looked for to ensure a reputable breeder but I am extremely satisfied with her and would gladly recommend her to anyone looking for a puggle.

Now some of you may say that anyone who is breeding puggles in the first place shouldn't be considered reputable but obviously there is a demand for them (the breeder that I went through has a waiting list for puppies) just as there is a demand for schnoodles, labradoodles, and maltipoos as well as pugs, beagles, chihuahuas, etc etc. The breeder that I went through also breeds pug puppies and did so exclusively for years, until she decided to start breeding puggles as well due to the high demand. The pug puppies actually cost a lot more than what I paid for my puggle, since they are purebreds. In fact, when I was doing research on chihuahuas, I was planning to pay $1,000++ for a sweet-tempered puppy from a reputable breeder so maybe that's the reason why the $700 that I paid for my puggle doesn't seem so outrageous! I was able to use the extra $ that I saved for toys, food, supplies, etc.  

Another point I want to make about my situation is that again, this is my very first puppy and my experience with dogs is very limited so that's why I wanted to purchase a sweet-tempered, friendly puppy from a caring breeder who would make me feel comfortable to ask any questions throughout my puppy's life. It was also important for me to know that the puppy's parents both have good temperaments, so this is why a dog from the shelter would not have been optimal for my situation. I was terrified of dogs when I was younger due to a bad experience with one...I have since grown out of this fear for the most part but still...finally buying a dog is kind of like a step towards facing a fear for me, in a way. So I definitely didn't want to take any chances with a dog from a shelter just because of this. Once I have more experience with dogs and am ready to get a friend for my puggle, the shelter is the first place that I'm planning to turn to. I know that there are a lot of sweet, well-mannered dogs at shelters but on the other hand, I have also heard many negative stories about shelter/rescue dogs being more difficult to train, having behavior issues, etc and I'm sorry but that is just something that I'm not comfortable with or ready to deal with at this point in my life! 

Believe me, I did research on many of the small/toy purebred breeds but ended up ruling them out for one reason or another...many of them are yappy, chase or don't get along with other animals (I have a rabbit, a chinchilla, and a bird so I needed a dog who wouldn't chase or terrorize them! Therefore all terriers are pretty much out of the question), or don't get along with children or strangers. I actually prefer the personalities of larger dogs, but it would be cruel of me to get one as I live in an apartment and don't have a fenced-in yard. That's the reason why I needed a small dog who wasn't a barker (don't want the neighbors complaining). 

Anyway, long story short, those are the reasons why I decided that a mixed-breed puggle would be the best dog for my situation at this time. I realize that some of you may disagree with my decision, and you totally have the right to your own opinion. However, I just wanted to let you know that I am extremely happy with my new puppy - he's everything that I wanted and more! So I'm really glad that all of the time spent doing research paid off.  I guess my final point is that there are ideal dogs for everyone, depending upon their temperaments and qualities. My perfect match just happened to be a mixed-breed, designer dog rather than a purebred, and I was willing to pay for the ideal companion, regardless of his breed (or mixed breeds, in his case). If anyone purchases a mixed/designer dog for the right reasons and finds that this little puppy is exactly what they were looking for (mutt or not), isn't that the most important thing?

Oh yeah, just wanted to add - I am definitely NOT planning to breed him! I'm going to get him neutered as soon as the vet says that he's old enough. Same goes for any dog that I adopt - they will definitely be neutered or spayed if they aren't already. I firmly believe in altering pets...dogs, cats, rabbits...whatever. If they live with me, they will be altered!


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

If someone loves their dog, takes care of their dog, and is happy with their dog, that's way more important than how they got it. 

But if someone is still in the "just looking" phase, I'm always going to try to sway them towards adoption.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I feel like I need to say that it's not that mutts are inferior. That's not the point I want ANYONE who has come across this conversation to take. 

Every dog can make a great pet, just depending on what you're looking for. 

My reasons for not being a fan of the puggle are those health related. There are plenty of great dogs that are not what you'd term a "purist" dog. For example, the Alaskan Huskey, the Silken Windhound, and the AUSTRALIAN labradoodle 

However, all of these dogs are bred for a purpose, which is why I'm comfortable hearing about them. 

The purpose of the Alaskan Husky is to be the fastest sled dog, the Silken Windhound is to be a faster, longer haired sight hound; the Australian labradoodle was ORIGINALLY intended to be a guide dog to the blind and allergy ridden. 

With the puggle, you have a contradictory mix of genetics- because you have a dog that wants to run all day, but that has breathing problems. 

THAT's why I said that it's hard for me to believe that anyone who cares about a dog's welfare would breed such different dogs. Even as the poster just said, their breeder started breeding them to make money. Because the public wanted it. 

Anyway, any dog can make a great pet. All dogs are equal in this arena. However, not every dog should be bred. 

Dogs that aren't up to standard, or have health and temperment problems should not be bred.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Paying hundreds of dollars for a mutt isn't a dog problem...it's a people problem. Until the critical mass of conscientious dog breeders becomes more than a minority, we're still going to have people who are concerned about the self-gratification of ego from producing a beautiful animal, a unique animal, a designer animal that translates into the sale of puppies and fadish prestige. Until all breeders recognize their ethical responsibility, genetic disease will continue to plague the dog community. The good news...most dog people agree that the people problem is infinitely solvable. Breeders can do their homework and breed genetically sound dogs...technology advancements can only make this more true. Buyers can do their homework and seek out breeders who care about producing healthy dogs. Both parties can take these actions if they want to...and to me, the line between a BYB and a reputable breeder isn't as narrow as some may suggest. The bad news...these are the two biggests "ifs" in dogdom. Sadly, BYB ethics are accepted by people because it is not the exception, and the dollars saved always seems to motivate people to find excuses for their choice. I don't know why people do that, I'm not sure if people will ever change...but what I do know is that the best breeding pratices should be the rule, and not the exception.


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## Cassiepeia (Jan 25, 2007)

> the Australian labradoodle was ORIGINALLY intended to be a guide dog to the blind and allergy ridden.


And now it's bred by backyard breeders and puppymills in Australia who sell to overseas buyers who think they're getting something reputable because it's "Australian".  Don't be fooled. Although I'm sure there is one exception in a thousand, even Australian breeders of this mix are mostly disreputable. 



> Believe me, I did research on many of the small/toy purebred breeds but ended up ruling them out for one reason or another...many of them are yappy, chase or don't get along with other animals (I have a rabbit, a chinchilla, and a bird so I needed a dog who wouldn't chase or terrorize them! Therefore all terriers are pretty much out of the question), or don't get along with children or strangers. I actually prefer the personalities of larger dogs, but it would be cruel of me to get one as I live in an apartment and don't have a fenced-in yard. That's the reason why I needed a small dog who wasn't a barker (don't want the neighbors complaining).


I have a Chihuahua. He rarely barks, he's exceptionally friendly and always has been. I adopted him as an adult and socialised the heck outta him after I got him. 

Dogs are a reflection of their owners and while some small dogs do bark more than larger dogs, this can generally be put down to lack of socialisation. Most toy dogs are 'watchdogs' which means they will alert you when something is amiss. If the dog is trained, exercised and well socialised (as all dogs should be) it is unlikely it will bark at 'normal' things. 
Plus, it doesn't take much effort to teach the 'quiet' command. 

Any dog can be raised and socialised with animals and people to accept them. It just takes some time and effort on the owners part. There are many people with small breeds (including myself) who's dogs get on well with other animals (my own dog is great with rodents, cats, birds and, of course, other dogs). 
Although small breeds tend to be more wary of children, I know several Chihuahua owners who have Chi's that LOVE children and get on really well with them. The difference is that their owners took time to socialise them to children when they were young. 

None of these excuses are good enough to exclude these small breeds. And all of these things you want to avoid can occur in all other dogs if you don't train and socialise properly. 

Big dogs can live in small homes no problem, as long as you give them the appropriate exercise, but I understand why you wanted to avoid that. 

Having said all that...I'm glad you have and are taking great care of your new dog now, regardless of it's mix. 

Cass.


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

What's a BYB?

From what I've heard, there are health and temperament breeding problems in purebreds as well, including inbreeding in golden retrievers, breathing problems in pugs as Snowshoe mentioned, etc. So regardless of the type of dog, it's always important to be aware of potential health problems and monitor your dog for any signs.

I haven't yet heard of any serious problems or complications arising from the pug/beagle mix of different temperaments that Snowshoe mentioned. If there are any puggle owners who have experienced any serious health risks, I would most definitely want to hear about it, as well as any tips on what a puggle owner can do to minimize any risks. From what I've read and observed, most puggles' snouts/noses are longer (like a beagle's) and not smashed in like a pug's so their breathing problems, if any, are minimal compared to that of a pug. Excerpt taken from a puggle site:

Puggles in general avoid many of the health problems associated with Pugs, such as with their eyes, joints, skin wrinkles, and susceptiblity to heat stroke. The longer nasal cavity (like Beagles) make it more tolerable to the heat and less likely to overheat while running in the summer.

However, since I am aware that pugs (my puppy's father) are susceptible to overheating, I am always going to be careful to monitor my dog during the hot summer months. Luckily in my area, the summertime is limited to 2-3 mths out of the year and the rest of the time, it's notorious for being cold/rainy.  

Without any anecdotal stories or proof that puggle owners have indeed had serious health complications with their dogs due to their breeding, I am still on the fence about the whole matter since I have been presented with two conflicting viewpoints. I guess only time will tell, since the puggle is still relatively new. As a responsible owner, I fully intend to monitor my puppy for any signs of health problems or weaknesses and plan to take him to the vet for regular check-ups. There are certain health problems associated with any type of dog, whether it be purebred or mixed, so the only thing we can do is hope that no serious health problems plague our little friends, and take the best care of them that we possibly can.

All breeders obviously want to make money - they would not hand their puppies out for free or charge only $5. If there is a demand for a certain kind of dog, obviously more and more breeders will begin breeding it. My breeder's beagle and pug are both AKC registered and have wonderful temperaments, as evidenced by the sweet pup they produced. She has kept a couple of their puggle puppies as well, which are now full grown, and has not had any major health issues with them to date. It's clear to me that she loves all of her dogs, takes great care of them, and wants to make sure that all of her puppies go to good loving homes. These are all qualities that are important to me in a breeder. I firmly believe that if we were seeing serious health problems/complications in puggles due to their breeding, breeders like her would immediately stop regardless of how much money they were making. The fact is that nobody has actually witnessed a puggle with these kinds of serious health problems that could endanger his life. I certainly haven't so far - my little guy is as happy and healthy as can be.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DoggieLover said:


> The fact is that nobody has actually witnessed a puggle with these kinds of serious health problems that could endanger his life.


That sounds like an opinion to me, it's certainly not a statement of fact. Do you think the bad genes just disappear when you cross two purebred dogs? Keep this in mind, when a purebred carrying a genetic defect is crossed with another breed or mixed breed, the "bad" genes do NOT "go away" even though they may not be expressed in the offspring. If crossed with another dog carrying the same defect, the offspring of that breeding will demonstrate the defect. 

Responsible breeders try to identify genetic diseases their dogs might be carrying and to eliminate them by careful breeding. It is ironic, though not surprising, that their efforts to identify and weed out genetic problems have lead some to cry "look at all the genetic diseases purebred dogs have!" A moment's careful thought will lead you to the conclusion that mixed breeds carry the same harmful genes (their parents, or their parents' parents, _were_ purebreds, after all). The differences are with some recessive disorders (though not all genetic defects) the disease is less likely to be _expressed_ (though it can still be inherited by offspring), and you have lesser likelihood of ever identifying or eliminating any harmful genes your mixed breed may be carrying. Also, if you stop and think about it, many mixed breeds are simply not tested for most problems. When they get older and limp, it's just considered old age, although it could well be hip dysplasia. When they get older and start to go blind, it could be PRA, but the owners are unlikely to test for this. It's not that owners of mixed breeds are bad, by any means, but they are not looking for possible inheritable problems, either. So if you're looking for evidence, I'm sorry, the only evidence you'll ever get will be anecdotal...on either side of the problem. Unless you're Bill Gates, and I don't think even he could afford it, the cost for the evidence you need as proof is cost prohibitive.


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

Dogs can have health problems regardless of breed (or mixed breed). I say we just agree to disagree on this subject as we obviously have differing viewpoints but it has been a good discussion. I googled "puggle health problems" and couldn't find information about known/proven health problems in puggles due to their breeding. However, I did find an article on puggles so I've included an excerpt:

Purebred dog breeders naturally have problems with these crossbreeds as many have spent a great deal of time and money perfecting the bloodlines of their breed and don’t like the attention these “mutts” are receiving. There is a widely held notion that these “mutts” are actually healthier than purebreds, which I have always believed. A cross between 2 breeds of any dog should eliminate genetic problems that may exist in either breed because 90% of genetic problems are recessive, meaning both parents must carry the abnormal gene.

If you want a better chance of having health problems with your dog then buy a purebred! If you want a pet that is unique and healthy then buy a puggle, or go to the local shelter and adopt.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I also recently joined a puggle forum so I will make sure to ask the members if they've noticed any health problems in their puggles.

I will also post pictures of my little guy in the next few days, as soon as I can find my camera. He loves to play and is so full of puppy energy, but then as soon as he gets tired, all he wants to do is snuggle up to me. So cute!!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DoggieLover said:


> Purebred dog breeders naturally have problems with these crossbreeds as many have spent a great deal of time and money perfecting the bloodlines of their breed and don’t like the attention these “mutts” are receiving. There is a widely held notion that these “mutts” are actually healthier than purebreds, which I have always believed. A cross between 2 breeds of any dog should eliminate genetic problems that may exist in either breed because 90% of genetic problems are recessive, meaning both parents must carry the abnormal gene.
> 
> If you want a better chance of having health problems with your dog then buy a purebred! If you want a pet that is unique and healthy then buy a puggle, or go to the local shelter and adopt.


I agree only with the last point about adoption, otherwise this exerpt is the classic explanation for the theory of first generation hybrid vigor. The resulting pups should not be bred though, since they'd have a good chance of having the recessives from BOTH breeds, so the grandpups would be inclined to be worse off than the purebred offspring of their grandparents. An excellent set of articles dealing with "hybrid vigor" can be found in _DogWorld_, Jan 1997 by George Padgett DVM. I doubt the author of the exerpt ever read Mr. Padgett's articles.


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## Cassiepeia (Jan 25, 2007)

BYB = Backyard Breeder (someone who breeds irresponsibly, but on a small scale). 

Bottom line is...if you breed an unhealthy dog to an unhealthy dog, you get unhealthy puppies. Sure a few pups might win the genetic lottery and come out unscathed, but litters usually have more than one or two pups. What of the others? 

And why would a disreputable breeder (of either mixes or pures) who is only out for money tell you what problems they have? It's a business to them...if you're selling a product you don't go on and on about how many bad points the product has. That'd be stupid and bad for business. 

Cass.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Lorina said:


> Don't take it personally if I find it idiotic to pay hundreds of dollars for a mixed breed dog. I know people who think I'm idiotic for paying the adoption fee I did for my dog. What they think doesn't matter, because I know I did what I felt was right for my situation. You obviously did the same. You did what you felt was right for your situation.
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion just as I'm entitled to mine. Just because someone does something I find idiotic doesn't mean I think they're an idiot. I do idiotic things all the time. I just sprained my ankle imitating my dog's waddling walk.


Ok, I hear you. Yes, I definately have done my share of idiotic things. Hope your ankle feels better soon


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I don't know any pug mixes personally (ie, no friends or family members have one), but I can think of three offhand that I know through work or from the neighborhood. There's a puggle who lives about 3 blocks away who barks constantly, whether he's inside or out. There's a client's puggle who's a nasty little dude who needs to be muzzled for the vet to even examine. And I remember a pug mix (I don't remember what with, but not another flat-faced breed) who needed surgery at another hospital for breathing problems as a pup. I don't remember exactly, but I think his nasal passages were too narrow? He was a very sweet little dog, but cost the owner a small fortune in vet bills.

The problem I have with the Pug mix and Poodle mix and other "designer breed" descriptions is that they're all hype and advertisement. They make them out to be some kind of wonderdog with no behavioral or health problems. They're not.

I'm not saying they can't be wonderful pets. The smartest best behaved dog I know is my parents' terrier mix Chester, who was actually from a pet store. (My brother bought him, then lied to my parents and said he was from the SPCA so they wouldn't make him take it back.)


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

What REALLY bothers me - someone mentioned the fact that the "puggle" breeder also bred(breeds) pugs and decided to start creating MUTTS cause there was a demand for it.

IMO that is TOTALLY irresponsible as a breeder. And it makes me wonder just how good of a pug breeder this person was to start with. NO legit good breeder of a purebred sets out to create more mixed dogs because its a demand - they concentrate on their chosen breed and stick to it and make sure those dogs are healthy.

That really scares me - the irresponsibility!


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

To be honest, I've met only two puggles. One did wheeze like none other, and the other one was really really shy. 

The point I was making is that it's just a poor choice of genetics to combine. Sure, some people may think they're cute, but that doesn't make them healthy. 

And to the poster who thinks that mixed breed dogs are healthier, I'd like to share a story: 

A few months ago, the local shelter got in two labradoodle puppies. For those of you who don't speak designer dog, that's a mix of a labradore retreiver, and a poodle. Obviously, a mutt. 

These two puppies came from the same litter, sold to the same lady, at the same time. I won't harp on the irresponsibility of this right now. 

Anyway, one of the puppies was found to have a case of mild displasia in both hips. 

That's right- a mixed breed dog had hip displasia in BOTH HIPS. 

*It depends on the individual genetics of the parents. *

And, for anyone out there who believes that purebreds aren't as healthy as mutts, you are mistaken. If you take two purebred dogs of healthy lineage, you will get healthy puppies. Of course, nothing in life is a guarentee, but if you have a good breeder, they will stand by their dogs. 

Again I will reiterate, it is up to the genetics of the individual parents. There is no such thing as hybrid vigor. It's a marketing ploy, just like that green M&Ms are suppose to better your love life, or that smoking Marlboro ciggies will make you a sexier woman, or a more manly man, or that your party will be more fun if you drink Budlight. 

It's a cheap shot that doodle breeders use when they've run out of all other excuses to breed mutts and sell them for thousands of dollars to unsuspecting consumers. 

I can't imagine how it would feel to pick out a puppy, become really excited about my new family member, and then be told that I made a bad decision by people I don't know on a community dog forum. 

ESPECIALLY if I felt like I had done the time to reasearch the dog of choice. 

So, I do understand where the lashing out is coming from. Just please keep in mind that none of us here have any reason to lie to you, or to feed you misinformation.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Doggielover - good for you that you are taking care of your puppy so well and I'm glad that you did do some research before you got your puppy. 

Breeding dogs, even if you are a reputable breeder and you know all there is to know is a risk. I work with a lady who shows and breeds Boston terriers. She has bred her female (a great example of her breed and great show dog (don't know what she has won because I have never asked)) several times and the latest was to a tested and healthy dog (also a good example of the breed) who was owned by a vetrinarian who worked in the same office who has been showing and breeding bostons for 22 years now and all four pups were still born. No one knows exactly why, but these things happen. You never have an absolute 100% guarentee that nothing will go wrong even with healthy dogs. It is just better to know what you are doing and breed healthy dogs then to not know what you are doing and breed un-healthy dogs.
Any breeder will tell you there is no 100% never gonna happen garentee that all the puppies they will have will be 100% healthy dogs with no breed specific problems.


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

Well hopefully I'll get lucky then and end up with a healthy guy. He seems really happy and healthy so far...no wheezing or anything after exercise or play, and he is eating all of his meals just fine. I'll keep you guys updated and let you know if I experience any problems down the road. 

He doesn't bark much at all, just when he's super excited, and I'm working on keeping that to a minimum. He has nipped a few times during play but of course that's normal for a puppy and I'm working on controlling that behavior as well. Took him to the vet and he checked out fine, now just need to get all of his shots before I enroll him in puppy classes. He has settled in really nicely and is the sweetest, friendliest little guy. He has definitely stolen my heart!  

And mutts or not, you have to admit that puggles are absolutely adorable!


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## babydolwv (Dec 5, 2006)

DoggieLover said:


> Dogs can have health problems regardless of breed (or mixed breed). I say we just agree to disagree on this subject as we obviously have differing viewpoints but it has been a good discussion.


I think that would be a wonderful idea...lol so many ppl with different opnions/facts.... this thread could go on for days on end!! altho i agree with many many many points made here... not going to go into all that other than 1 thing.... the reason we have soooo many dogs in shelters... is because the owners didnt do there research... didnt really care to. just wanted a dog so when out and got one...didnt spend the time the dog truely needed to train it or even love on it... once the dog/pup wasnt new anymore it was boring... so they stop giving it attention. so what does that lead to?? a very missbehaving dog only cause it wants/needs attention... thats y so many dogs end up in the shelters... and yes i do think that alot off ppl say oh but i didnt think this dog would be like this... welll if someone takes the time to train/play with the dog... you can make the dog into anything you want it to be.... but you have to have the want to... i will be honest we did look into a few dogs and saddies breeds were not one that we really wanted as 1 terriers are very hyper dogs and 2 labs would be a bit bigger of a dog than we really wanted (i know there not huge!) but i saw her and i just could resist... i had to bring her home... and that was in november.... and she is doing great as of the moment... i will admit shes not show quality when it comes to commands... but i am proud of her and we still need to keep working with her about biting/nipping when she wants to play, but hey she is a pup in my opinion they are gonna play like that... but she no longer tries to chew on our furniture, is doing great with staying and lots of other commands, but i have taken the time to sit down and work with her... and in my opinion of more ppl would just sit down and take the time to train there dogs. no so many would end up in shelters or even do a little research on breeds... then they will know ahead of time when it comes down to temperment, allergies, size...even with a mixed breed... you can say ok this part gets this big and this part gets this big... and atleast say well my dog wont be but about this big... if you get what i am saying... like with saddie... she wont get any bigger than a lab would as a lab is bigger than a terrier, but then she could stay the size of a terrier, but either is fine with me.. .she is a great and wonderful dog... my little shadow!! ha ha.. i c so many qualities in her that come from both breeds and say ah well that must be the lab part in her (for example she loves water, thats where the lab comes in...and she gets very jealous of the cat and my mothers dog, that would be the terrier in her...) so as you can see i have done some research on the possiblities of what she will turn out like...but so far she is a wonderful dog and is begining to calm down abit... ha ha


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Doggielover you sound like a TRUE doggie lover. Kudos to you and there should be more people like you out there who research and train their dogs properly as soon as they come into their new homes. Good for you.
Up until Chloe ALL of my dog were socailized, obedience trained and when I was much younger my dads old dog Leslie (a catahoula leopard dog) we even did doggie sports. The reason I didn't work with Chloe as much was because she was a rather ill-gotten project of mine I will admit. But I think in the end I did the right thing in helping out Chloe's parent's owner the way I did. I do regret not taking her to puppy classes or socializing her with other dogs but I was very nervous with her as I was used to having big dogs and treated her for the most part like she was made of austrian crystal, lol!!! She weighed 2.2 pounds when I brought her home for the first time and her sister Cayenne weighed in at a hefty 1.7 pounds!!!!


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## vickitory_puppies (Mar 16, 2007)

Well i am new to this site...i thought i would get some good input from dog owners about what kind of dogs ppl like and wanted. I amd starting to sell puppies on line and one of the dogs i am selling are puggles.If anyone would like any information on them you can email me at ***unauthorized advertisement***


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

You should consider reading the rules of this forum before you post such rubbish. We here try to promote great breeding practices, and we encourage new members to purchase from a reputable breeder, or adoption agency. 

Obviously, no good breeder would shamelessly promote their dogs online. 

You are obviously a broker, an in between for puppy mills and pet stores. You should be ashamed of yourself.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

vickitory_puppies said:


> Well i am new to this site...i thought i would get some good input from dog owners about what kind of dogs ppl like and wanted. I amd starting to sell puppies on line and one of the dogs i am selling are puggles.If anyone would like any information on them you can email me at ***unauthorized advertisement***


People who want to buy a puppy, buy from responsible breeders who don't advertise on the internet or sell mixed breed dogs on-line.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

Someone posted the AKC requirement for new breeds/rare breeds of dogs and how to get them recognized on another "designer" thread.

In short, AKC has NO plans of every recognizing the dog from two AKC breeds to create a "new" breed. Which means the cockapoos, labradoodles, pekeapoos, puggles, and any other designer dog will never be a breed. Because they are already two purebred dogs mixed.

So the best thing to do is to spay/neuter your designer dogs and educate people on the reasons NOT to be buying or breeding them. Those that do, do NOT help the dog population - they contribute to the problems.

This also goes for purebred dog breeders who are breeding their dogs for all the wrong reasons.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Kerry said:


> But the fact remains that all breeders, yes even the best ones, are looking to sell puppies and make money. It's a business. They may do an interview, but how many people are really turned away and told no?


That's completely wrong. The goal of a reputable breeder is not to make money, it's to *improve the breed*. It is not a business! A true reputable breeder does NOT make money and considers themselves lucky if they even break even. It costs A LOT of money to breed responsibly- health testing, showing the dog to their championship and/or getting working titles, etc. Their only goal is to improve our existing breeds.

Yes, things can still go wrong with the puppies even when the parents are health tested and have a good temperament. Animals are living things and sometimes recessive genes crop up and nature has the final say. It just greatly increases the odds when you check for health conditions and do everything in your power to breed healthy, stable dogs. 



Curbside Prophet said:


> 3. There are no genetic tests available for mutts. If you can't test your dogs for genetic defects, how do I know you're not giving me a dog with genetic abnormalities.


I don't think that's true. Like with OFAing hips for instance, the dog's breed doesn't have anything to do with the results. To my knowledge, all of the tests for hearts, eyes, patellas, etc. are to do with the function of that organ or part, I don't think knowing the breed is even necessary.

The problem is that most people breeding "designer dogs" (every single one I've seen anyway) don't health test their dogs even though they COULD. They don't have their Lab's hips x-rayed or their Poodle's eyes checked for PRA before breeding them together because that would cut into their profit. 

My stand on this is that there's nothing ethically "wrong" with breeding a Puggle IF things are done a certain way. All breeds started out as crosses or mixes and obviously mixed breeds like "Puggles" fill a certain purpose. If the breeders were health testing their breeding dogs and had a goal and plan towards making them a breed I think that would be different. What seems to be happening here though is that it's the money hungry ones who are just looking to make a buck on a new fad that are creating these Puggles.

In response to some people's arguments that there are plenty of purebreds in shelters also. I totally agree! I think about 90% of purebreds shouldn't be bred either. Byb of purebreds are JUST as bad.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

luvntzus said:


> I don't think that's true. Like with OFAing hips for instance, the dog's breed doesn't have anything to do with the results. To my knowledge, all of the tests for hearts, eyes, patellas, etc. are to do with the function of that organ or part, I don't think knowing the breed is even necessary.


In order to have a DNA character, you must know the breed. And since mutts can be many different breeds, the DNA character is unknown, and it would take billions of dollars to develop tests for all the possible combinations of mutts. IMO, if you don't take advantage of DNA testing, you're an irresponsible breeder. Genetic testing is not meant for testing function. It's meant to help the breeder predetermine if the parent dogs are predisposed to having pups with genetic disorders. Sure, the breeders of Puggles can DNA test their parent dogs, but in the end they are still producing a mixed dog, which can't be DNA tested. Thanks, but no thanks. BTW, OFA testing on hips is done radiologically, not by using genetics.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

I realize I'm joining in on this a few days late, but this is such an important topic for me. 

First of all, there is NO such thing as a responsible "designer dog" breeder. Period. End of story.

The ONLY REASON TO EVER BREED IS TO BETTER THE BREED! Since these designer dogs are NOT BREEDS, but mixes, there is no standard for which to strive for. It's disgusting that some people get so bored and so greedy that they decide to experiment and become self proclaimed genetic experts.

Designer dog breeders EXIST SOLELY for money. Period. 

TO ANYONE JUST NOW READING THIS THREAD: If you want a mixed breed dog, PLEASE ADOPT from a shelter! DO NOT LINE THE POCKETS OF THESE IRRESPONSIBLE BREEDERS. 

Adding a dog to your family IS NOT an overnight decision. There is a purebred dog to fit any lifestyle. Do your homework. Go to a few dog shows and talk with the exhibitors. (just please wait if we're trying to get ready to go in the ring...after all, we're there to show )
Go to the AKC website and read about the breeds you are interested in. Go to that breed's respective national parent club's website. They are the best source for finding a RESPONSIBLE BREEDER. The parent club can also assist you in finding a breed specific rescue group if you prefer.

TAKE YOUR TIME.....A DOG IS FOR LIFE


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## squirt1968 (Feb 19, 2007)

At least in my area you don't find the small "designer dogs" I don't know about larger ones. I do know there are large pure breds at the pound. For my way of thinking some of you want more laws inacted. I for one think over the past 40 years we have had too many new laws enacted, forced on us however you want to see it.People expect the govt to do their thinking for them. People use to want to make their own decissions. I am 63 so I am old enough that I have seen many changes in our country (USA) govt is more controling and I for one don't like it. We are losing our rights one at a time. Just my thoughts


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> To my way of thinking, a family who seeks out a certain type of dog, pure or mixed, is less likely to give up their pet after time.


If that was true, there wouldn't be so many "hybrid" mutts in the pound right now, along with the purebreds, mongrels, green and red dogs that seemed cool - but just didn't turn out to par.



> My stand on this is that there's nothing ethically "wrong" with breeding a Puggle IF things are done a certain way. All breeds started out as crosses or mixes and obviously mixed breeds like "Puggles" fill a certain purpose. If the breeders were health testing their breeding dogs and had a goal and plan towards making them a breed I think that would be different. What seems to be happening here though is that it's the money hungry ones who are just looking to make a buck on a new fad that are creating these Puggles.


I would agree, except..

Yes, it is ethically unacceptable for breeders to ride a trend wave and begin churning these mutts out when there are many, many dogs awaiting adoption at the pound. Many people thus turn around to say, "Well if this is true, then purebred breeders should stop their breeding programs as well!". "Hybrids" are not breeds. Very, very far from it. There is no standard, purpose, or form to breed to - only the cries of ignorant people seeking to buy the next best thing. Development of breeds was NEVER a one generation affair, and as a mentioned in another thread, the fact that some people think these "hybrids" are on their way is actually sort of funny to me. Why would a passionate and responsible breeder stop producing healthy dogs for the showring, companions, field, and CD events? Why should well developed breeds lose the support of ethical and experienced people who are caring and devoted to improving the breed?

We all know that dog breeding, or any animal is under the mercy of the people who care for them. Just because there are irresponsible breeders of purebreds, doesn't mean that "hybrid" breeders are going to pop out like mushrooms and call sanctuary on the argument that there are mutts everywhere in pounds, and that bad breeders exhist everywhere.

Why are we taking on the can't beat 'em, join 'em attitude? Just because more and more breeders and "fanciers" of hybrid dogs are emerging, doesn't mean we can suddenly decide ".. well, maybe it IS okay.."


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## [email protected] (Mar 24, 2007)

I have a puggle, and I resent the implication that because he is a designer dog he is going to end up in a shelter. As far as the label of designer dog, the basis of the history of all dog breeds is combining traits to achieve a desired look/size/temperment etc. And as far as "pure bred" owners looking down their nose at my dog, unless you are competeing with your animal at Westminster, You chose your dog for exactly the same reason I did. Because they were beautiful, complimented your own personality, and you wanted to share your life with them, and frankly I'm tired of my dog getting bashed.

Also, no matter how much people dispute this fact, there are genetic benefits to a hybrid dogs. I have a masters in Genetics at the University of Washington, which intersted me in the breed in the first place. A puggle is an F1 generation between a mother beagle and papa pug. This is because some genes are carried on the X/XY chromosome to make a predictible outcome in the puppy. Also, most genetic defects in dogs in association with their breed is a recessive trait, therefore if one parent doesn't carry the gene, those defects won't appear as a phenotype. This means that puggles have to be F1 generation, if you mix a puggle with a puggle you will increase your likelihood of occuring problems. pug/beagle mix is required to get your dog registered with the ACHC (american canine hybrid club). This is also why we had to sign a spay/neuter contract, and what could be wrong about a breed that inhibits over population?

Also, I didn't get my dog from a puppy mill or back yard breeder. My breeder had years and years of experience, and was more reputable than the breeder I got my Nationally accredited and champion sired labs. You can check out his website at pugglesville.com where you can see pictures of the puppies, living in the house with rest of the family. 

Also, I looked for a puggle in the pound on petfinder.com, I also looked for several other hybrid dogs and could find NONE. Just because a dog is mixed breed doesn't make it hybrid, and people are over inflating the reputation of them becoming pound puppies. Honestly they are so expenive I can't imagine that more people would give up their hybrid than would any other puppy. 

I couldn't agree more that people who are looking for a puggle as an accessory should probably just buy a purse, but I am disgusted that people would discourage someone from buying the dog they want if they are a loving responsible owner. My puggle is the smartest, most beautiful little guy in the world, and I would never own another breed after having him. He is a hybrid, not a mutt.

A puggle is a hybrid dog, this means that you can't breed a puggle and a puggle. It has to be an F1 generation between a beagle mom and puggle dad to get a predicitable and desired outcome. When you start breeding F2 generations together, you risk the resessive traits (and health problems) that are inherent to the parent breeds reappearing. If you buy a puggle you should make sure it is from a reputable breeder that requires you sign a spay/neuter contract.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

No if you have a masters in genetics you know that hybrid vigor only comes into play when you are breeding two different species ........ 

when you breed a pug and a beagle they are dogs.... same species.... very different from breeding a lion and a tiger or a donkeys horses to get mules..... hybrid vigor has nothing to do with this and if you indeed have a masters in genetics you should know that. 

He is not a hybrid he is a mutt.... he is a mixed breed dog that was bred for the sole purpose of making money........ while the origins of all current dogs were mixed that is very true.... however, I don't see these puggle breeders out there trying to develop a breed standard and they are indeed still breeding first generation dogs.... the other part of this is that no reputable breeder will sell one of their puppies to someone who intends on breeding a mixed breed.... it is written very clearly in my contract that my dogs will never be bred to a dog of another breed...... so what that means is that these designer dog breeders are not getting their breeding animals from reputable breeders and most often they are putting any pug and beagle togetehr that they can get their hands on..... 

now lets talk more about health..... as we realize we are not talking about hybrids at all...... because dogs are dogs and they are breeds of dog but they are still of the same species.... and that makes these designer dogs not hybrids but ok ...... 

we have two breeds of dogs.... both of which may be prone to the same health issue..... A Pug is a brachiocephalic toy breed and lapdog that has trouble breathing under the best of circumstances and then lets take this dog and cross it with a beagle a high energy hound that bred to hunt. How well do you think that dog is going to be able to breathe when it’s running hard and playing? Take a Pug’s nose and challenged respiratory system and cross it with Beagles exuberant personality and genetic urge to hunt and run. How can this be good? and while some puggles because they are NOT A BREED and they are still first generation dogs.... some will be more like pugs and some will be more like beagles....... you tell me whats good about this..... and show me one breeder of puggles that is breeding F2 ....... there aren't any...... 

No more than goodles or goldendoodles.... or labradoodles or any of the other names that unreputable breeders come up with to make silly people feel like they are getting something special that nobody else gets..... 

if you are going to buy a mutt make a big donation to the humane society and find yourself a nice dog...... and if you want a purebred dog then find a responsible breeder who shows and does events with their dogs and makes their dogs prove that they are worth breeding before they are bred.... who demands that every puppy that can't be kept comes back to them by contract..... a person who does health clearances on every dog that they breed....... 

but the fact is that a puggle is a mutt...... not a hybrid.... 

I am glad you love your dog and are a good owner but lets call it what it is..... 
S


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Ok, so what happens when you mix a breed of dog that is known for having breathing problems with a dog that likes to run all day? 

Answer: a puggle. 

No one who is actually considering the welfare of the dog would make that cross. It's a terrible choice of genes to combine. 

Also, it's great that you're a good owner. Kudos to you. But many people who buy into the designer dog fad are not. 

In regards to your degree: good for you for being educated. 

However, what do you think would happen if you had a female pug with hip displasia and mated her to a beagle with hip displasia? 

I bet that you know the answer to that, too. The pups would be displastic too, right? Right. 

Even though they were mongrel bred? Of course. 

What if you had two dogs of different breeds that had heart problems, and put them together? 

Even though that pups were mixed, they'd still have heart problems. 

It's in the individual genes of the parent dogs that are bred. 

Just because a dog is of mixed hertiage won't make it healthier. But, you probably already know that, right? 

Plus, many people who breed puggles aren't ethical. Ethical breeders test for heart, hip, elbow, eye and thyroid problems to say the very least. Did your breeder test for all of those? 

If so, do you have proof? 

Does your breeder show their pugs and beagles? If so, are they champions? If they don't show, do they do agility with their animals? Do they work field trials? If so, are they sucessful? 

Was the breeder a member of the Pug Club of America or the Beagle club of America? 

If your answers are "I don't know," or just a plain, "No," then your breeder wasn't ethical. 

These standards are what pure bred dog breeders are held to. The same standards should go for anyone who decides to breed. 

Also, in regards to your lab breeder- it does not matter if that person has been churning out puppies for thirty years. If they do not do the tests mentioned above and show their animals, they are not ethical. 

Once again, ignoring what these people breed, there are standards that they should follow to be ethical. 

That is why it is so important for puppy buyers to do their homework, regardless of what kind of dog they choose to add to their family.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This is an interesting debate and one that my Plottweiller* and I are watching very closely.

I'm struck by the comment I hear over and over in these discussions: "This is the way it is. End of story."

But the story never really ends.

* I've decided the Plottweiller sounds a lot cuter than Plott-hound-mix-of-questionable-ancestry. And to make it official, I've added Plottweiller to my spell-check dictionary. So there. I have no idea if Esther has any Rottweiller in her, but that would help explain her assertive tendencies and beartrap jaw strength. Also, I didn't like the sound of Plabrador.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

So what's the purpose of lousing up two good breeds? What's the purpose of creating a dog that is more likely to have heat related illnesses? If your breeder is willing to break the ethical code of their lab's breed club, it makes sense that they would dabble with hybrids. IMO, any breeder that ignores the ethical code is irresponsible, and by definition a BYB. This says nothing about your dog, which I'm sure is wonderful and deserves all the love it receives, but your breeder is bluntly, not trust worthy. BTW, the idea of hybrid vigor is only generally accepted by some scientists, it is not "fact" that it is entirely true.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Coming from a fellow person studying genetics, your idea of genetics is a little skewed...


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

RonE said:


> This is an interesting debate and one that my Plottweiller* and I are watching very closely.
> 
> I'm struck by the comment I hear over and over in these discussions: "This is the way it is. End of story."
> 
> ...


Ron, personally I like esther just as she is... esther and ya know...... I thought that one day I could breed my flat coats and poodles and get floodles or perhaps floozys..... (just kidding) 


I think the issue is that mutts are wonderful dogs.... nobody is saying that mutts arent wonderful..... I have had several and they were the best dogs ever.... and if it hadn't been for them... my husband who was afraid of dogs would not be living with our five now.... they were great.... free to a good home at blue seal feed..... and ya know what??? I didn't have to make up some ridiculous name for them in order for me to feel like I had a fancy dog or to make them anything more than they were ...... they were wonderful dogs and they didn't need to have some ridiculous name to prove it to anyone. 
s


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> Also, I didn't get my dog from a puppy mill or back yard breeder. My breeder had years and years of experience, and was more reputable than the breeder I got my Nationally accredited and champion sired labs. You can check out his website at pugglesville.com where you can see pictures of the puppies, living in the house with rest of the family.


Just for the record and then I am done.... I went to the pugglesville website..... 

first there is no requirement for right of first refusal..... which means that if for whatever reason you cant keep your pup it must by contract go back to the breeder. 

second, there is NO health guarantee beyond the first 72 hours where you may return your puppy for replacement or money back 

third, there is no interview process..... you pays yer money you pick yer pet..... 

fourth, there is no data about health clearances on the site anywhere..... for any of the sires or dams....... 

finally.... if you go to the site you will see also exactly what I am talking about with regard to the breed type and quality of the sires and dams..... 
and just to add a bit more to this.... yes there is a new registry...... and anyone can create a registry.....its a sales pitch... oh yes your dog will be registered by Joe Shmo down the street..... they have created a registry because none of the reputable registries will register the dogs..... 

oh and like I said... right on the front page of the site it says that they will not be attempting to continue with F2,F3, or F4 breedings... so they are in no way looking to create a breed or to eventually get recognition..... 

so to be frank there is no way that I would call this breeder reputable.....


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

To Shalva,


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> In order to have a DNA character, you must know the breed. And since mutts can be many different breeds, the DNA character is unknown, and it would take billions of dollars to develop tests for all the possible combinations of mutts. IMO, if you don't take advantage of DNA testing, you're an irresponsible breeder. Genetic testing is not meant for testing function. It's meant to help the breeder predetermine if the parent dogs are predisposed to having pups with genetic disorders. Sure, the breeders of Puggles can DNA test their parent dogs, but in the end they are still producing a mixed dog, which can't be DNA tested. Thanks, but no thanks. BTW, OFA testing on hips is done radiologically, not by using genetics.


Wait, but DNA testing and health testing are completely different things. Like with OFAing hips; an x-ray is taken and those are sent to the OFA for vets to examine how the hip fits into the socket. It doesn't matter WHAT breed the dog is. Here's an excerpt from their website:

*I have a mixed breed. Can she get an OFA number?*
_The OFA does not require dogs to be purebred or registered in order to perform an OFA evaluation or to register test results into our databases._

I'm pretty sure it's the same with all health tests. CERF for eyes, SAS for hearts... they examine that part or organ, the breed of dog isn't a factor. 

*Edited because I realized that we were having some miscommunication. I do agree that responsible breeders should DNA, but only to know for sure which dogs are the parents. I think it's research of the lines and knowing the health of the relatives that's more important.

So it is possible to health test "Goldendoodles", "Puggles" etc. All of the breeders I've seen just don't because it would cut into their profit and that's what they really care about anyway. 



Snowshoe said:


> Ok, so what happens when you mix a breed of dog that is known for having breathing problems with a dog that likes to run all day?
> 
> Answer: a puggle.
> 
> No one who is actually considering the welfare of the dog would make that cross. It's a terrible choice of genes to combine.


That is a great point that I hadn't considered. Even if the parents were both health tested, with the physical makeup of the two breeds, it's just not a wise cross.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

yes it is possible to health test mixed breeds offa and cerf don't care they are evaluating health data so yes you can do all the same clearances on mixed breed dogs as you can on purebred dogs..... however..... most people breeding doodles and other of these mixes don't do them for just the reasons you mentioned..... it cuts into their profits. 

dna is a whole other thing as it is simple an effective way of being sure that parentage of a dog is what is one the pedigree.
you can also dna mark a mixed breed dog..... the dna marker doesn't establish breed of dog it is just as i understand it an identifier. 
s


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

A beagle is susceptible to certain health problems--pugs are susceptible to certain health issues--when you breed the two you are getting twice the amount of health problems that puppy could be susceptible to. Saying a "mixed" breed--which really isn't a mixed breed (a mixed breed to me is a mutt of many different ancestors) will be healthier is an incorrect phrase/statement that many people have caught on for whatver reason.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> A beagle is susceptible to certain health problems--pugs are susceptible to certain health issues--when you breed the two you are getting twice the amount of health problems that puppy could be susceptible to. Saying a "mixed" breed--which really isn't a mixed breed (a mixed breed to me is a mutt of many different ancestors) will be healthier is an incorrect phrase/statement that many people have caught on for whatver reason.


a mixed breed dog is one of mixed parentage either two different breeds or multiple breeds..... I certainly didn't say that they are healthier..... just that you can do health clearances..... if one were so inclined to do them however most folks with mixed breed dogs don't do them.... no reason..... however as far as offa is concerned or cerf.... you could certainly do them if you wish..... 
s


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Sad thing is these so-called breeders don't look at these dogs as mixed breeds nd as someone wrote earlier are trying to establish these mixed breeds/mutts as breeds (cockapoo). I have heard time and again--in general, not from you, that these mixed breeds are healther which is an incorrect statement but seems to be the comeback they all try to use.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

ya know i would have less of a problem if they were indeed trying to develop a breed but cockapoos have been around since the fifties and yet they are still breeding first generation dogs there is no attempt being made to develop a breed standard and control breeding practices.... if they were indeed trying to develop a breed then I would personally have less of a problem with it.... 

my issue with them is that the; majority are dishonest and are merely lining their pockets off the backs of their dogs... and in the long run it is the dogs that suffer ..... 

if they were trying to establish a breed they wouldn't be consistently breeding first generation animals.... i absolutely will acknowledge that all breeds were at one time mixed breeds... my flat coats a mix of tweed setter (no longer in existence) st. johns newf (no longer in existence) lab and whatever else.... but at some point the breed was stabilized and there was no need to continue mixing dogs in..... as with most modern breeds..... 

but to tell people the puppy buyers outright lies..... have no health guarantees,.... no health clearances..... and then to charge astronomical amounts of money so that the average uneducated joe thinks they are getting some special hypoallergenic breed is in my mind totally unethical..... and the guy who came here above is just spouting off what I am sure he heard from his breeder who has years and years of experience...... aye yi yi..... 

s


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## [email protected] (Mar 24, 2007)

Shalva,
As far as I'm concerned, I would like to know the real reason for your vehmenent stance on *hybrid dogs. Also, I think you should recheck your definition of hybrid vigor, as this term is not necessarily used only for different species. Although this is a common mistake, as the term is often mistaken as "species hybridization". However actual species hybrid vigor usually results in an infertile offspring. Hybrid vigor, or "Heterosis" is in regards to an organism possessing a heterozygous gene combination, and technically increasing their reproductive culpability. (So as you see these are two very different concepts). Here is a definition for you from the hybridization and polylpoidy lecture given by Sarah Reichard *Geneticist. You can find if by searching University of Washington, "Hybrid vigor".

Hybridization – crossing two unlike types of organisms 
- if “unlike” simply means genetically distinct, then any reproduction involving two distinct individuals qualifies as hybridization and only self-fertilization does not. However, hybridization usually means crossing between two ‘types’ that do not usually cross in nature. 

as opposed to

Interspecific hybridization - crossing between individuals representing two different species. This is what most people mean when they talk about hybridization. 

As you can see there is a distinct difference between the two defintions, and my dog is actually a HYBRID, not a mutt. As technically there is no such thing as any F1 generation mutt, they are all hybrids, EXPAND YOUR DEFINITION.

let me put my position in simpler terms. If you have two parents (humans for example) and one carries a recessive gene for a horrible disease. The other is not a carrier because that genotype is not prevalent in that parents particular famile heritage. That recessive trait will of course still be carried in any resulting offspring, HOWEVER it will not be expressed in that offspring because it is RECESSIVE. This is pretty basic. And this is the basis "hybrid". This means that yes, people can be considered hybrid as well, as long as they come from different genetic backgrounds.

Furthermore, the interview process with pugglesville begins after you express interest in a dog, as well as the buyers agreement includes a stipulation that pugglesville will take back the dog for any reason. I would be willing to bet that you ARE a breeder, and i would also be willing to bet that you are EXTREMELY insecure over these dog's popularity. Whatever. Also, yes, they do not use AKC standard dogs, as I never claimed they did. As the puppies are not used for further breeding it doesn't pose any threat to the carefully inbred genepool in any beloved breed. It doesn't REALLY matter what kind of stock the parent is, as long as they make an attractive, healthy puppy. No *hybrid owner has any real aspirations of showing their dog, and only wants a puppy that they can fall in love with and will be healthy throughout their lives.
Also, I don't know why you would want this dog to be bred beyond an F1 generation in the pretentious goal of making it a breed. All that would do would be to create litters that are ripe with expressed recessive health problems. Why should some dogs suffer just to breed out these characteristics? I think it is time to open your mind just a smidge and try looking at this issue from another perspective.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

wow, impressive, much clearer than I tried to explain in my layterms. Great!


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## RobDar (Dec 28, 2006)

farmgirl543e said:


> I was just curious about these desinger puppies and how it works I mean take puggles for instence you breed a pug and a beagle to get a puggle so if you get a puggle and one day wanted to breed it to have puppies what do you breed it with and the same thing with goldendoodles what do you breed those with i am just curious so if anyone knows let me know lol thanks


they say that breeding a female beagle and a male pug is the only way to get a puggle. That is how you know they are ripping you off! Anyone who took high school biology knows that regardless of which way you breed the dogs you have a 50/50 chance of getting a dog that looks like a puggle.

and if it looks like a puggle...they will sell it as a puggle.

just wait a while and sooner or later some little stray beagle will show up at a shelter who was gotten by a pug...and you can get a puggle for a fraction the price. 
designer dogs are a rip off and likely the biggest rip off to hit the dog world in decades. They are mixes...nothing more.
Go to the shelter and pick up any mix, come up with a cute name...tell everyone you got it from a breeder and paid a truck load of cash for it...and you could start the next craze!!!!


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I do breed ....ONLY when I want a puppy myself, my last litter was 3 years ago... and right now I have a waiting list for all of my upcoming litter.... Flat Coated Retrievers...... AKC accepted and Registerable.... Champion parents, Champion relatives.... multiple advanced titles in the pedigree including field trial champions. The odds are that I am not going to have as many puppies as I have applications. Oh and I do not advertise...... there is a posting on my website and word of mouth is all I need. I say no to more people than I say yes to ..... Sire and Dam have hips, eyes, gonioscopy, patella and elbow clearances.... which is not to say that sometimes things dont happen but clearances are important..... they have both also had a Vetgen DNA test to determine what colors they carry as Yellow is a disqualifying fault in flat coats so I do not wish to produce yellow puppies. 

I guarantee my litter for genetic health related problems until age 3 and while its not in the contract if a genetic problem shows up later I would guarantee that as well. Its not a guarantee really..... its giving the person bakc the money to help treat the puppy regardless..... I request that the entire litter have at least hips cleared and I give rebates to the pet owners so that they don't have to foot the cost of something they would not otherwise do. I have an extensive contract.... and make the owners sign a seperate right of first refusal so that any puppy they can't keep for whatever reason comes back to me no questions asked. 

If the puppy does end up with a genetic problem or another major health problem they can choose their money back...... or another puppy from a future litter and they DONT have to return their puppy that is sick... all they have to do is provide evidence from a vet and a spay neuter certificate. 

I can tell you the pedigree and the history of all of my dogs in detail..... dogs in the pedigree as far back as 7 and 8 generations. I also have the health information on all of these dogs..... I don't require a non-refundable deposit.... I take a deposit when the pups are born and I know I have a puppy for the person... if for some reason they can't take the puppy they do get their deposit back when I find another family for the puppy. 

Nobody gets a puppy who has not come to my home and met with me and my husband and they interview us and we expect them to interview us as we interview them. Everyone who is able... must have a fenced yard..... and I encourage them to continue feeding the raw diet. 

I don't have a kennel..... none of my dogs are kennel dogs they all sleep in the bedroom and unfortunately beg at the table..... they go to shows... they go to shops.... one of them is a hearing dog as I am Deaf....... she goes with me to classes as I am also a University Professor. 

My puppy people have become my friends, I talk to several of them weekly and several of them we email constantly..... We go to dinner and they can call on me day or night to discuss a problem wtih their dogs..... Several of them come here to stay while their parents go on vacation...... and when they are happy I am happy..... I had a hand in bringing these little lives into existence and it is my job to make sure that they stay safe and sound and happy for the rest of their lives..... 

Do you really now.... think I am threatened by Pugglesville???? be real...... 

I seriously doubt that anyone that comes to me for a puppy would go to pugglesville..... and you can call me names and pretentious to your hearts content... doesn't matter at all to me...... I am doing whats right by my dogs and those puppies, I am really sorry that you don't seem to know what a responsible breeder does or is because to me the only ones that suffer from that lack of knowledge are the dogs. 

Like I said..... 

I would have less of a problem with them if they were trying to standardize a breed...... and aiming for recognition of a breed.... shoot they are calling their mixed breeds a silly breed name.... so go for breed recognition that would shut the nay sayers up...... but they aren't doing that.... they are taking their toys and going home to set up their own registry..... and thats a crock..... 

Do health clearances and don't just pick any old pug and any old beagle or any old poodle and golden or lab and poodle or whatever....

the fact is if they marketed their puppies as pug beagle mixes they wouldn't be able to charge the amount of money they are charging for these dogs.... which have not proven that they are worth breeding..... because everyone knows yo ucan get a nice mixed breed from the shelter so say what you will but its marketing...... to make money.... thats it...... 

oh and just for the record I made money on my last litter $14.00 if I didn't count wrong...... and I have started the spending for this litter..... just the Artificial Insemination for this litter cost me $1500 and thats not including the ultrasound and follow up care..... oh and the cost of gas to drive my truck two hours south to the vet..... everyday for the week that we bred so we could get accurate progesterone and LH levels. 

So don't talk to me about being threatened..... these disreputable breeders don't threaten me at all...... I like an educated puppy person who has done their homework and I can answer the hard questions..... like why did you choose the stud dog you did ...... and the answer isn't because he is the one I got. 

and as I said before your genetics knowledge is just a little off. 
S


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

This may be off topic, but I think its sad when people could care less about where their dog comes from. 

I think its even more sad when they have no clue what they're talking about and refuse to educate themselves because they feel self righteous. 

Its the dogs that suffer because of this attitude. 

I just don't get why anyone would pay so much for a mutt that has no health clearances, no titles in the pedigree, and no long term guarentee of health and THEN argue that their dog will be healthy because its a mutt when they have no idea whether the parents were themselves healthy. 

I think that argument is probably the one of the most ridiculous ones that I hear frequently on this forum. I think this post is particularly sad because the person seems to feel that they are very educated on the subject. 

I guess people just have to learn the hard way why genetic clearances are so important, which is really sad for their dogs.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Snowshoe said:


> This may be off topic, but I think its sad when people could care less about where their dog comes from.
> 
> I think its even more sad when they have no clue what they're talking about and refuse to educate themselves because they feel self righteous.
> 
> ...


You are right 
its ridiculous and like talking to a rock..... 

I am out...... 
Shalva (who is taking the advice of snowshoe and bowing out)


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## Aberdeen (Mar 20, 2007)

A couple years ago my in-laws researched puppies that did not shead. They knew they wanted a larger dog as they lived at the basin of the mountains and coyotes come down and snatch smaller dogs and cats. 
After a year of contemplating they found a good breeder that had decided to breed labradoodles for the first time. She had a beautiful full sized champion poodle that was retired and a gorgeous male yellow lab. 
When they got their puppy they loved him (still do very much) but as he started to grow he started to shead A LOT. They were incredibly disappointed as they picked this dog so it wouldn't shead. After more research they found that a first litter is never considered a true new breed and two labradoodles have to be breeded together to have the qualities of a true labradoodle. 
I am not sure if this is true with puggles as well but I know my in-laws wished they knew this before they got their dog.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

If it looks like a puggle, they sell it as a puggle???????

Excuse me but WHAT IS A PUGGLE SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE??????

There is no breed standard! Because its not a breed!


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> There is no breed standard! Because its not a breed!


Unfortunately, there is a stupidly high demand for such "breeds". Some people think they are the most fabulous thing since Chanel, and go out and buy these poorly bred pups stores or "reputable" breeders.

Look, to me - there are a few things in this world that do not exhist.

Diet Coke
Decaf Coffee
Reputable Hyrbid Breeders

..I do have other opinions, but they arn't exactle acceptable for this forum


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## Dorygirl (Mar 16, 2007)

I was walking Dory today and 4 people stopped to ask me what kind of dog she is....I tried my darndest, people! I said, "Oh, she's just a mutt." NO ONE wanted to hear that answer. They were each very determined to find a breed for her. "She is a miniature poodle." I said no, just a mix. "Well, then, she's a bichonpoo." Well, she probably has poodle in her. "Yes, yes, she's a cockapoo." I relented on that one and agreed that cockapoo is her "breed". 

So if I see any of you on the street and you hear me calling my dog a designer name...forgive me. It's way easier.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Dorygirl said:


> I was walking Dory today and 4 people stopped to ask me what kind of dog she is....I tried my darndest, people! I said, "Oh, she's just a mutt." NO ONE wanted to hear that answer. They were each very determined to find a breed for her. "She is a miniature poodle." I said no, just a mix. "Well, then, she's a bichonpoo." Well, she probably has poodle in her. "Yes, yes, she's a cockapoo." I relented on that one and agreed that cockapoo is her "breed".
> 
> So if I see any of you on the street and you hear me calling my dog a designer name...forgive me. It's way easier.


I don't think anyone really has a problem with the name of these mixed breeds, it's where they come from. They are being bred by irresponsible breeders who are only in it for the money. Heck if you wanted to make a fancy name for your mixed breed then by all means do that. I could easily call my dog a Pitmation if I wanted to, but it's the fact that I didn't put my money into an awful cause. I mean you have your dog now, and she's a major cutie...but it's not the name that people have a problem with, it's the way these poor baby's are being bred so irresponibly.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

When people ask me I say a Malti-poo. It is pretty obvious by the name he is Maltise and Poodle. I would be suprised if people did not know he was a mutt. I really do not care if they think he is a breed or a mutt. I just say malti-poo because it is easier and cuter


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I personally don't see what's so hard about saying germans shepherd/golden mix versus the Great Golden Shepherd or something. To me, it's much easier to figure out when people say the whole name out. There are some designer breeds that I hear the cutesy name and just go 'WHAT?'. I honestly have no clue what breeds are involved. Ones that took me forever to figure out were Bratts, Jugs, Chugs, and Schnoodles. How am I supposed to know what those are?


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

I guess what you choose to call your dog is just a matter of personal preference. I agree some names like Juggs or Chugs you have to stop and think about but Malti-Poo? Schnoodle? Come on those are quite obvious.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Peace, 

you should teach a class on designer dog names. Then maybe we'd all be up on them.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It seriously tok me an age to figure out what the add in the paper for Schnoodles was. Shouldn't it, keeping with the usual be a schnauzapoo?


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## Bumper (Mar 28, 2007)

I'm new here, joined today, and as this is a topic I feel very strongly about I'm going to respond.

I'm a breeder. I raise field bred Springer Spaniels. I have one breeding bitch at a time, who raises one litter a year. I'm on the third generation of my breeding program, and every litter I strive to better the line. NO dog is bred without A) being well proven in the field, B) having hips OFA certified as "Good" or "Excellent", and C) have their eyes CERF tested. Springers also must be negative for PFK, a genetic disorder. I spend a _minimum_ of $300 per dog before they are ever considered for breeding.

I health guarantee my pups, on eyes, hips and PFK, for _life._

Designer dogs are there to make money for the breeder. They are a fad...that's it. Since the law of supply and demand rules the issue, the people who want to buy them are just as at fault for the "fad" as the breeders are. There's nothing wrong with mutts, I've owned my share and they are awesome. But to intentionally breed mutts and call it a "breed" is shameless.

As for breeders breeding to "make money"...We totaled it up and I LOSE $1,000 a year. Yeah, I make money on my dogs. I sell my pups for $700 with that health guarantee. I have two pups left, one who will be spayed next month and have her left eyelids tattooed because they are pink. She is not breeding quality. I'll take a huge loss on her but I won't sell her without tattooing her and spaying her.

Responsible breeders have a goal: better the breed. My dogs aren't show dogs, they are field bred, they hunt. They also sleep on the couch.  In all my searching online of designer dogs, I've yet to see one that guarantees pup health, tests the parents or breeds to better the breed.....because they don't HAVE a breed. They raise mutts.

Bumper


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

ok Bumper so here is a question for you..... I have flat coats..... my dogs go into the field and then into the show ring..... they are a dual purpose breed as springers and every other breed was supposed to be .....labs are notorious for this as are goldens.... 

why are you not striving for a dual purpose dog as that was the intent of the breed in the first place.... these breed splits drive me nuts..... there is one spring spaniel, one golden retriever.... and one labrador.... there is no seperate category for field bred of any of these.... We have flat coats and goldens and while I am lucky that my flat coats have maintained their dual purpose nature, my goldens or golden retrievers have not.... and that is my biggest goal..... to have goldens that can hunt and go into the breed ring..... 
form follows function and if your dog is not structurally sound ie. meets the standard then how can it do what it was intended to do..... 

s


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

I have 3 "mutts" & 1 pure (a shih tzu, pet quality) 

the oldest is a (female) min-pooddle mix (maybe malti) I know the person that did the breeding and this little angle was adopted out but mis-treated. The "breeder" (1 time only) rescued her and she was re-homed with me

the (male) shih tzu was re-homed with me because "they had a new baby and could not give both the baby & puppy the love needed"

next is a golden-doodle (golden retreiver & standard poodle x) this male baby was purchased from a breeder (suspect the worse kind) the lady wanted a medium sized dog for her son after she divorced - this dog is now 2 yrs old & 120 lbs. The breeder swore it would not be over 60 lbs. I listed with a rescue/re-home site and was called in 3 days "Would I take him?" YES 

the final one is also a golden-doodle (female - they look nothing alike) she was the product of a breeding of a friend's standard poodle to their neighbor's golden - of 13 pups only 3 were female & I took the 3rd female - there is still a 1 yr old male from that liter needing a home - but thankfully the 2 neighbors are taking care of him and not "dumping" him

all my furbabies are altered 

July of 2005 I had my beloved Bichon (pure - breeder purchased) placed to sleep - cancer of the brain - she was 14-1/2 yrs old and my treasure

I know the joys of being part of a pack - whether they are pure or mutts


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## Dorygirl (Mar 16, 2007)

Oh for heaven's sake, another lecture. It's getting a little old. I just wanted to share a story about my walk the other day. Once again, I'm accused of being irresponsible and shameless. 

It's nice that you are passionate about dog breeding ethics. But I really only think of dogs as pets and nothing more. There are many of us out there who aren't interested in "field bred" or show dogs or bloodlines. 

I've done the "reputable" pure breeder route and wasn't all that impressed. My Golden died at age 5, so all the precautions don't mean much to me. You can breed to "better the breed" till the cows come home - still no guarantees. 

My new puppy came from a nice lady who treats her dogs well. No champion background, minimal guarantees, no AKC papers. The parents were healthy, the vet says Dory is healthy. Good enough. 
She is small, curly-coated, apricot/white coloring with a fun personality that isn't too hyperactive. Smart, easily trained, and doesn't shed...a nice mix of miniature poodle and cocker spaniel traits. Just what I wanted. She suits our family perfectly.

I have 4 children who are my babies, so the dog is just the family pet here. Loved and well cared for, but she still only ranks 6th on my list of priorities. Although my husband might say he ranks below the dog sometimes. 

I would just like to be able to post on this forum without regularly being reminded of how irresponsible and ignorant I am because I own a cockapoo.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Dorygirl said:


> Oh for heaven's sake, another lecture. It's getting a little old. I just wanted to share a story about my walk the other day. Once again, I'm accused of being irresponsible and shameless.


I believe your breeder is being called irresponsible and shameless, not you. 



Dorygirl said:


> It's nice that you are passionate about dog breeding ethics. But I really only think of dogs as pets and nothing more. There are many of us out there who aren't interested in "field bred" or show dogs or bloodlines.


I would say this is the perfect argument to consider a shelter or rescue dog. There are certainly no concerns for pedigree or breed there.



Dorygirl said:


> I've done the "reputable" pure breeder route and wasn't all that impressed. My Golden died at age 5, so all the precautions don't mean much to me. You can breed to "better the breed" till the cows come home - still no guarantees.


And what did your "reputable" breeder do to remedy this? What was the cause of death? A reputable breeder has a guarantee into adulthood. If you weren't "that impressed," then why did you buy?



Dorygirl said:


> I would just like to be able to post on this forum without regularly being reminded of how irresponsible and ignorant I am because I own a cockapoo.


If you're looking for people to accept designer dog breeders as being reputable...it will never happen. Designer dog breeders and those that advocate mixed breeding will always be considered irresponsible and ignorant. Again, it's not about you, your dog, or how much you love him. It's the breeders and those pushing for more needless dogs, in the face of our current overpopulation problem, that raise the hackles of people like me, and those who want better for the dog community.

BTW, I don't read that you are advocating mixed breeding.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

to add to what curbside prophet has said.... .just because a breeder shows their dogs and just because a breeder has purebred dogs doesn't make them responsible..... those are just aspects of being a responsible breeder and not the whole of anything.... there are many show people who I would not call responsible breeders and there are many performance people that I would not call responsible...... 

there is more to being a responsible breeder than having show dogs or champion bloodlines.... or or or...... one thing does not make a responsible breeder there are many many aspects that combine into one to make a breeder that I would consider responsible. 

s


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I think the whole designer dog fad is pathetic. 

If a person doesn't care if their dog is a mutt "because they love them" or "because they just wanted a pet" then they should adopt from the pound. 

There are plenty of loveable pet quality dogs in the pound who desperately need a home. 

The only difference between them and some designer dog is the price tag and the silly names they give them. 

I'm sorry, but "Golden Doodle" sounds like a nasty bodily function to me. That's just my opinion, and I don't really care if I get flamed for it. 

So, if you don't care if your dog's parents are healthy and if you don't care what your dog will look like when it grows up, then I suggest to anyone reading this that you adopt. 

Buying a designer dog is like paying $500 for a pair of mock Oakley sunglasses with out the warranty. 

Just because your breeder "raises their pups in the house" and they "take the mom to the vet" does not make them a GOOD BREEDER. 

Those are things that anyone should do, people. 

I have challenged almost every designer dog owner on this forum to provide proof that the breeder they purchased from was half decent. Only ONE out of all of those people bought from a breeder that health tested.


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## HarleyQuinn (Mar 24, 2007)

My out look on it is if I am getting any mixbred or "pet quality" dog it will be an adoption forsure. I'll spend 225 dollars adopting from our local SPCA. The dog is already fixed, has had its shots, I know I am getting an honest feed back about the dog because I've dealt with shelter many times and old family friends work there, plus the dog might come with previous training. They will weed out the ones they don't think will fit my lifestyle and will give me a good description of the ones they think will. Best way to go or so I think.

Never owned a "show" quality dog and never will. Pound puppies are what Im interested in.


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

Snowshoe - not to sure I fit in your classifing - I have 2 "golden doodles" - neither did I pay for the 1st I got thru a rescue service as a re-home (good enough?) - this furbaby (solid black) I can almost guarantee came from a puppy mill for many reasons starting with hip problems that large breed dogs are prone to, to his giant sizing (body as long as mine & 120 lbs.) but I love him and will care for him till . . . .

the 2nd - a female & blond (looks very golden retreiverish) I took from a birthing of a mating of friend's standard poodle (sire) to another friend's golden (I asked them not to do this, but ) 13 puppies were born - 3 females, I took 1 of the females, the rest were found homes except 1 male (still needs a home) but the friends are taking care of him maybe 1 day he will have a "forever" home. they are now 1 yr and 85 lbs., the male slightly bigger than the female. Again, I consider this an adoption.

I did not take them for show, they are pets/family.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

*There is NO SUCH THING AS A ETHICAL DESIGNER DOG BREEDER*

There is only ONE reason and ONE reason ONLY ANYONE SHOULD BREED....TO BETTER THE BREED! PERIOD. 

Please, I'm not bashing anyone that owns a designer dog...I know you love it and treasure it just as I do my Rottweilers. But for the love of Pete, if you want a MIXED BREED (which is EXACTLY what these puggles, doodles, etc are) GO TO YOUR LOCAL HUMANE SOCIETY! Don't pad the pockets of BACK YARD BREEDERS! Like it or not, that's what they are! 

I'm in total agreement with you, Snowshoe!


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

I don't care if the "breeder" of a designer dog tests their two dogs they are mating. The bottom line is they are NOT improving either of the breeds and are only out to make money on a fad.

AKC will not recognize any mix of dogs they already consider a breed separately. Thus, none of the designer dogs will ever be a breed.


Also on the subject of the labs (I own a resuce lab - she's probably a mix of bench and field type, cause she is a little of both styles). I don't breed labs, and I know my opinion won't count, but I would like to see in the show ring two separate types - the longer, leaner field bred lab and the stockier type you see in the rings now. You have a good dog either way. Personally I prefer the leaner field lab type.


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## Bumper (Mar 28, 2007)

Shalva said:


> ok Bumper so here is a question for you..... I have flat coats..... my dogs go into the field and then into the show ring..... they are a dual purpose breed as springers and every other breed was supposed to be .....labs are notorious for this as are goldens....
> 
> why are you not striving for a dual purpose dog as that was the intent of the breed in the first place.... these breed splits drive me nuts..... there is one spring spaniel, one golden retriever.... and one labrador.... there is no seperate category for field bred of any of these.... We have flat coats and goldens and while I am lucky that my flat coats have maintained their dual purpose nature, my goldens or golden retrievers have not.... and that is my biggest goal..... to have goldens that can hunt and go into the breed ring.....
> form follows function and if your dog is not structurally sound ie. meets the standard then how can it do what it was intended to do.....
> ...



The dual nature of so many hunting breeds is something I also dislike. My thoughts (as far as Springers go) are that the field dogs were here first...after all, they were bred to hunt. The "modern" bench dogs were developed over time. They were bred because the show people didn't like the look of a purely functional dog. Yup, there are bench dogs who hunt/trial, and some breeders who breed bench dogs to show AND hunt/trial, but they are very much in a minority. For the most part, serious bench breeders turn up their noses at field lines and vice versa. 

So, why am I not striving to "mend the gap"? Because it would take the majority of breeders to do so, and I'm very much a small time new breeder. It would mean one faction or the other would have to give in, and I personally don't want a dog with the bench build hunting. Just like with many dog breeds (and as a lifetime horse owner I will add, many horse breeds), form and function don't always go hand in hand in a "beauty contest". In other words, the pretty bench dogs don't always have the conformation or physical stamina to hunt safely and with longevity. They might looks stunning but their conformation doesn't always mean their conformation will promote soundness.

The structural standards set out by bench breeders mean my dogs would be laughed out of the ring. But does that mean they aren't sound? Of course not. My oldest dog is almost 10 and still hunts as hard as she did when she was 2. She's completely sound, can still jump into the back of the pickup. Her two pups that I kept are 5 and sound. And yet those same standards promote a structural frame that often doesn't hold up to hunting. It's just purty.

I'd love if it Springers and other breeds with dual standards came together into one, but human nature being what it is, I don't see it happening.

Bumper


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

designer dogs _never_ admitted - bet me!

The *Golden Retriever breed *was originally developed in Scotland, at "Guisachan", near Glen Affric, the highland estate of Sir Dudley Majoribanks (pronounced "Marchbanks"), later Baron Tweedmouth. For many years, there was controversy over which breeds were originally crossed. In 1952, the publication of Majoribanks' breeding records from *1835 to 1890 *removed doubt about a romantic story concerning the purchase of a whole troupe of Russian sheepdogs from a visiting circus.

A young Golden Retriever showing the breed's broad face and wide muzzle.The original cross was of a yellow-coloured dog, Nous, with a Tweed Water Spaniel female dog, Belle. The Tweed Water Spaniel is now extinct but was then common in the border country. Majoribanks had purchased Nous in 1865 from an unregistered litter of otherwise black wavy-coated retriever pups. In 1868, this cross produced a litter that included four bitch pups; these four became the basis of a breeding program which included the Red Setter, the sandy-coloured Bloodhound, the St. John's Water Dog of Newfoundland, the Springer Spaniel, and two more wavy-coated black Retrievers. The bloodline was also inbred and selected for trueness to Majoribanks' idea of the ultimate hunting dog. His vision included a more vigorous and powerful dog than previous retrievers, that would still be gentle and trainable. Russian sheepdogs are not mentioned in these records, nor are any other working dog breeds. The ancestry of the Golden Retriever is all sporting dogs, in line with Majoribanks' goals.[1]

Golden Retrievers vary widely in colorGolden Retrievers were first accepted for registration by the *The Kennel Club of England in 1903, as Flat Coats - Golden*. _They were first exhibited in 1908, and in 1911 were recognised as a breed described as Retriever (Golden and Yellow_). In 1913, the Golden Retriever Club was founded. The breed name was officially changed to Golden Retriever in 1920.

_The Hon. Archie Majoribanks took a Golden Retriever to Canada in 1881, and registered Lady with the American Kennel Club (AKC) in 1894. These are the first records of the breed in these two countries. The breed was first registered in Canada in 1927,_ and the Golden Retriever Club of Ontario, now the Golden Retriever Club of Canada, was formed in 1958. The AKC recognized the breed in 1932, and in 1938 the Golden Retriever Club of America was formed.[3] (So goldens were admited in less than 100 years.)

a developed dog = designer dog by another name 
oh and remember, unless it is a pure wolf then it was "designed" usually for a purpose


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I really hate that argument. It's silly. 

Goldens were bred for a purpose- to hunt. Just like Alaskan huskies are being developed NOW to run. Same with Silken Windhounds and a few other choice breeds that actually have purpose. 

What purpose does a designer dog serve that a pure bred dog or shelter dog can't? There is none. 

The real problem with those who create designer dogs is that they do so to make money. That's really the true purpose of a designer dog.


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## Dorygirl (Mar 16, 2007)

> I would just like to be able to post on this forum without regularly being reminded of how irresponsible and ignorant I am because I own a cockapoo.


LOL. I guess it's not possible. Now I can add pathetic to my list of demerits. 

Curbside, I wasn't impressed after she died at age 5. She had every health clearance possible so the tests/certificates don't mean anything to me. 

Snowshoe, if we could only turn that hostility into positive energy and channel it toward something important.


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

Snowshoe said:


> I really hate that argument. It's silly.
> 
> Goldens were bred for a purpose- to hunt. Just like Alaskan huskies are being developed NOW to run. Same with Silken Windhounds and a few other choice breeds that actually have purpose.
> 
> ...


maybe - in many cases you are right - but the labradoodles and golden doodles were & are being breed to advance service & therapy dogs - since I am a supporter of the Southeastern Guide Dogs (for the blind & impaired) - I will take any advancements


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Dorygirl said:


> Curbside, I wasn't impressed after she died at age 5. She had every health clearance possible so the tests/certificates don't mean anything to me.


Again I'll ask, what did your breeder do to remedy the situation? If the answer is nothing, you did not buy your dog from a reputable breeder. If you did not buy your dog from a reputable breeder, you did not do all your homework. If you did not do all your homework, you have no right to blame the breed. Health tests, and genetic tests are only insurances, they are not gurantees. If you want a gurantee with any dog that it will not die, buy a dog that requires batteries...and I'm not even sure after the one year warranty if you could even gurantee that. When it comes to buying any dog, gurantees are on paper...they are not menat to be supported by interpretation, imagination, or hope. I gues in this case we can blame you for being irresponsible, but I always blame breeders first because buyers are usually just ignorant. BTW, ignorant is not a condescending term unless you make it so.



Amitiel said:


> maybe - in many cases you are right - but the labradoodles and golden doodles were & are being breed to advance service & therapy dogs - since I am a supporter of the Southeastern Guide Dogs (for the blind & impaired) - I will take any advancements


You may want to review the success of those who originally "created" these breeds. If I'm not mistaken, they have abandoned their practice because they have yet to standardize the outcome. If you can't standardize, you can't duplicate. So, you get breeders who want to take advantage of the idea and breed without a standard only for profit. Most guide dog services that I've seen have a lot of success finding dogs in shelters...there's certainly a surplus of good dogs in shelters, we don't need new "breeds" to make up for it.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Dory girl. I have read most of your posts and I pretty much agree with most of it. I have a malti-poo from a pet shop and a shih-tzu from I think people would call them a back yard breeder? I do not know. They seemed nice.

I just wanted to pets a specific breed and I wanted a puppy so from puppy on they would grow used to a life with a house full of kids. The malti-poo was an "impulse buy" out of pity. I would not bought him though if his breed and size and the rest of it would not suit our family.

I got the 2 dogs and we love and care for them and are the perfect pets for our family.

I will say that if in the future I am looking for a certain type of puppy I will look a little harder to see if petfinder or a rescue has what I am looking for. I will again buy from a breeder or pet store if sheltors or rescues do not have the right dog for me.

I still think and I have said it several times before. THe problem is not really the breeders it is the people who do not KEEP their dogs!!! If people kept what they got or did not by dogs if they were not going to keept them the breeders of any kind of dog would not over breed and we would not have this problem

I know certian extreme unavoidable circumstances happen given some no way to keep them but other than that people should keep their pet!


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

but most shelter dogs (here anyway) and the best guide dogs are labs and labs shed - the impaired are prone to allergies - shedding dogs are not allergy friendly - poodles are almost the only large breed intelligent dog that is non-shedding - but their body frame is not useable for assistant - the only answer is to breed a servicable dog to a non-shedding (and pray for the best?) 
You are right - the original breeder is no longer involved in the breeding as the multigens of the labradoodles are not "standarizing" yet I used the golden retreiver in a earlier post as merely an example - other breeds have taken much longer to standarize - the labradoodles have only been attempting for what - - - less than 50 yrs - today's society wants instant outcome, no staying power to see things thru - no the mix is not ready to be accepted as a breed and may take 100s of years - the AKC (& others) accept "new" breeds often (sometimes several in 1 year) I am sure you have seen this, 2004 I believe. The project is still on going by others.
Should those needing the service of an assistance dog allergy friendly wait? Can't some of these earlier non-standard dogs provide for the gap? I myself have 2 doods (nickname) from golden retreivers - neither did I pay for, both are re-homes - 1 is not capable of assistant dog due to bad hips, the other would be a great assistant dog & may one day have to be mine (MS & deteriorating). Should I be denied her services just because she is not "standardized"?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

IMO, if a person requiring a service dog has allergies, they should find a treatment for the allergies first. Because whether the dog is present or not, the person still has allergies. In order for a dog to be hypoallergenic, the dog can't spit, can't pee, and can't have dander (which means no skin). <= This would be one ugly dog. It's not the shedding of hair that causes allergies, as you know, it's the shedding of dead skin. Therefore, no dog can be completely hypoallergenic, so, it's better IMO that the person find a treatment for their allergies first, then fill the gap with a suitable dog. 

Furthermore, if you're going to take a chance in the dog's serviceable health (since there's no reasonable effort to standardize), why not take the chance with a service dog. Many service dog prodigies don't become service dogs in the end, so I don't see a point in adding to the mix breed population when there's a surplus already. IMO, if someone wants to create a hypoallergenic friendly dog, they need to standardize the breed first, prove that it is hypoallergenic friendly and tested, and take all the appropriate steps to have the dog recognized as a unique breed. Until then, doodle breeders will always fail my tests on responsibility. 

As it stands, the ignorant assume these dogs are hypoallergenic because they've been told it is so. When in reality, no one knows if one pup from any litter will be hypoallergenic friendly. This is not only a disservice to the dog, it's a disservice to the people needing a hypoallergenic friendly service dog.


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> IMO, if someone wants to create a hypoallergenic friendly dog, they need to standardize the breed first, prove that it is hypoallergenic friendly and tested, and take all the appropriate steps to have the dog recognized as a unique breed. Until then, doodle breeders will always fail my tests on responsibility.
> 
> As it stands, the ignorant assume these dogs are hypoallergenic because they've been told it is so. When in reality, no one knows if one pup from any litter will be hypoallergenic friendly. This is not only a disservice to the dog, it's a disservice to the people needing a hypoallergenic friendly service dog.


1ST - what does IMO stand for? (sorry - I am still learning all the "short-hands")

that is what I was stating - the program to standardize the breeding is in progress but is not instant (in this microwave world) it could take many 100s of generations to acheive
As to the allergies - I am 1 of those with these seve allergies & MS - my dogs are my furbabies/family - I did not choose them for service, however my youngest dood is suitable - not all dogs of any breed are suitable, far from it. The allergeries & MS I do medicate for (how many pills & shots do you think I should take on a daily basis? - I already do 9 pills twice a day & 1 shot) - with 4 dogs I have my hands full controlling dust, dander, & everthing else. My dogs are re-homes (not from shelters, read my/their blog to see). I cannot house any more now.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

Hi Amitiel,
I noticed in your last post that you have MS? My hubby has MS and I'm just curious as to what therapy you are taking? He is currently on Copaxone.

Oh, IMO, stands for "in my opinion"


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

IMO = in my opinion. IMHO = in my honest opinion. Grandpaw RonE has an extensive list on short hand if you need a Cracker Jack decoder. 

I wish I had a cure for allergies, certainly good people like you deserve relief. I was asthmatic once, but I luckily grew out of most of it - I wish the same for all those that suffer. 

If a hypoallergenic friendly service dog is in the making, that fills some gap not currently filled by the available breeds, I just want it done right, and I'd like to see people (breeders) not take advantage of the ideas and effect the breed or disillusion otherwise good people. I'm asking for too much I suppose, but frankly, everyone should as for as much, if not more.


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> IMO = in my opinion. IMHO = in my honest opinion. Grandpaw RonE has an extensive list on short hand if you need a Cracker Jack decoder.
> 
> I wish I had a cure for allergies, certainly good people like you deserve relief. I was asthmatic once, but I luckily grew out of most of it - I wish the same for all those that suffer.
> 
> If a hypoallergenic friendly service dog is in the making, that fills some gap not currently filled by the available breeds, I just want it done right, and I'd like to see people (breeders) not take advantage of the ideas and effect the breed or disillusion otherwise good people. I'm asking for too much I suppose, but frankly, everyone should as for as much, if not more.


thank you - you a grandpa- I doubt - however, I am a older than my sis who is a grandma (literally)

yes - I agree - breeders need to take responsibly to breed for the best traits - & there are way too many dogs (unwanted & uncared for) some "pet parents" and many breeders I could just  (be nice, be nice) (mine & hubby's family members included) - said enough, thanks for listening



ChRotties said:


> Hi Amitiel,
> I noticed in your last post that you have MS? My hubby has MS and I'm just curious as to what therapy you are taking? He is currently on Copaxone.
> 
> Oh, IMO, stands for "in my opinion"


thank you - as to the MS - it was Avonex (10 years) but I am trying (fighting the entire way, kicking & screaming) to move into 2nd progressive, so the neuro has changed me to Rebif - stronger & more often than Avonex (also easier to self-inject) - never did any of the others - lol I live in central Florida (hot & humid) - have been ordered by doc to move north - never get hubby out of Florida


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

Amitiel
The neuro put hubby on Rebif first thing...it was devastating! I hope you have a better result from it...
The Rebif would leave sores that would last for a week at a time, plus he was even more tired, dizzy , and had worse "flu" like symptoms than ever before.

Copazone (I believe) has replaced Avonex...anyhow, hubby went for another MRI last week and shows no worsening of the plaques...so, his neuro has ordered him 3 days of i.v. steroids, that's where he is now, at the outpatient center getting his "fix" lol
He also put him on Adderal, which has helped a lot.

Anyways, good luck with the Rebif...
Geez, I couldn't imagine hubby living in Florida with MS...it's bad enough in the summers here in KY.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Dorygirl said:


> Snowshoe, if we could only turn that hostility into positive energy and channel it toward something important.


The interesting thing is, that I think responsible breeding and rescue *are* positive energy and something important.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Dorygirl said:


> Snowshoe, if we could only turn that hostility into positive energy and channel it toward something important.


It's not necessarily meant to be hostility. It's more like frustration. I'm sorry if I came off that way. 

I just get sick of people arguing for designer dogs when they don't have all of the facts. 

I agree with Curb, if they were bred for a purpose with carefullly monitered breedings and they were tested for genetic defects like Von Williebrands, or Epilepsie, or eye problems or hip displasia then I'd not feel the way I do. 

At least with newer breeds like the Eurasiers and the Alaskan Husky there is a purpose in mind. 

I realize that most people don't care about that, but they SHOULD care. That's what really aggravates me. 

Plus, the silly names that people give designer dogs to make them more marketable are just that, silly. 

And I do volunteer in my spare time (as little of it as I have) to our local humane society. So, I guess you could say that I do channel my annoyance into a helpful venue.

There are SO MANY designer dogs that come the shelters. At least, there have been when I've been around. Lots of dogs that look like puggles and more poodle mixes then you could shake a stick at. 

All of those dogs came from someone who thought that they had purchased an anti-dog: a dog that wouldn't shed, would be smart, great with the kids, easily house broken, hypoallergenic, and more healthy then a pure bred and blend perfectly into their family with no work. 

Then, those cute fuzzy poodle mix puppies grow up to be like 100+ pounds, they shed, or have hip displasia or eye problems, or temperment problems and their owners dump them at the pound because they are just like any other dog! 

After all, they paid over $1000 for a wonder dog! For that kind of money they think the dog is going to be perfect. Then, these owners find out the hard way that their poodle mix breeder won't take the puppy back and boom! There you go! Another innocent life put to sleep because of irresponsibility. 

So, yeah, that's why I get frustrated at people who defend them and who breed them. 

Maybe you poodle mix lovers shoudl volunteer at shelters near you, and then you can be astounded like I was when three poodle mixes were dumped in the same after noon. (they were all different and random mixes). 

It may not be like this everywhere, but poodle mixes are definately increasing in the shelter system. Very sad.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

Snowshoe, I couldn't have said it better myself.
There is no predictability with these mixes whatsoever, much less a standard for which to strive for. Unless and until the general pet buying public are willing to educate themselves, there will be (sadly) a *gag* market for these *cough* designer mixes.


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## bearlasmom (Feb 4, 2007)

another problem with people mixing all of these breeds is the mixes dont live long. WHY? because they inherit all of the genetic makeup of their for fathers. they develop all the hip, elbow, blood and eye problems. they develop the eye problems and the shallow birth canals. they develop the bad habit and the good ones. they develop and mutate all of the genetic markers and DNA from both sets and you end up with a Shepmal with vwd (bleeding disorder) that has hip problems and bad eyes. OR WORSE. God did not give us the key to turn on the genetic frankenstein machinery. we were given these animals to protect and to care for until we go on to the otherside. They are not ours to own but merely given to protect and to love as God intended us too. We are his caregivers and should not be playing God by designing new breeds and undoing all the work that he has already done. 

like the old saying "If it is not broke, dont fix it."


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## Bumper (Mar 28, 2007)

Amitiel said:


> designer dogs _never_ admitted - bet me!
> 
> (snip)
> 
> ...


There is absolutely NO comparison between a designer dog and a developed dog. A designer dog is a mutt...two breeds crossed to create a dog of mixed breeds. There is no plan in their breeding, no breed purpose or standard, no goal in mind other than a quick buck.

A developed breed takes _decades, generations,_ to create. One crossing of two breeds is nothing but the very first tiny step in that direction. If no more steps are taken to make it a breed, it's a mutt. Pure and simple, and bred for profit not for the benefit of the DOG.

And the comparison of the wolf to a designer mutt means nothing. Today's dogs are thousands of years from their wild ancestors. Comparing thousands of years of selective breeding to one ill-thought out cross is ridiculous.

Bumper


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

Bumper said:


> There is absolutely NO comparison between a designer dog and a developed dog. A designer dog is a mutt...two breeds crossed to create a dog of mixed breeds. There is no plan in their breeding, no breed purpose or standard, no goal in mind other than a quick buck.
> 
> A developed breed takes _decades, generations,_ to create. One crossing of two breeds is nothing but the very first tiny step in that direction. If no more steps are taken to make it a breed, it's a mutt. Pure and simple, and bred for profit not for the benefit of the DOG.
> 
> ...



sorry, but it appears if you did not read, or if you did did not understand, what I said in the _entire_ post - I agreed that to breed a x without purpose and only for money is, shall I say, cruel. However, the x cross I am interested in is the labradoodle or golden doodle (doods), the purpose there is to breed a *service dog *that the impaired with allergeries can more easily tolerate. I am and have been following their breeding and realize that they are possibly a few 100s of generations from establishing a standard. But the developed dogs of today, whether for hunting or other, also started with a laughed at crossing and did not reach standard in just a few generations. The golden retreiver was merely an example, check the history of any & every breed (those known by recorded history anyway) the process is extended. The doods are not likely to reach standarization within my lifetime, but maybe within my grand-nephews lifetime.



bearlasmom said:


> like the old saying "If it is not broke, dont fix it."


but it is broke - there in no large breed that is even close to be a low-shedder that has the temperment, intelligence, and body frame to become a service dog to the impaired with need. "Need is always, the mother to invention." or even improvement.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Amatiel- this has already been hashed over in other threads. You should check those out. 

In regards to your argument, let me present a few of my own: 

Hypoallergenic guide dogs- the breeding program failed and was discontinued. They are no longer being bred for that purpose. The other thread in question will also illustrate that. 

In regards to "new" breeds- please look at Eurasiers. You've probably never heard of them, but they were started back in the early 1960's as a mix of a keeshond, a chow, and a samoyed. 

Now, they are recognized by the UKC because they have a breed standard worked out and their dogs are breeding true. 

Labradoodles were started at approximately the same time. 

Why is it that you think they are not on their way to recognition? 

Because the "best" doodles are an F1 cross. Do you know what that is? An F1 cross is a first generation cross between a lab and a poodle. There can be no standards for an F1 cross because they are all as different as night and day. 

Why is the standard so important? They will never get recognized by a legit kennel club such as the American Kennel Club or the Canadian Kennel Club with out a breed standard. Obviously, they have to bree true for x generations before they will be admitted. 

They are just not a legitimate "new" breed and they never ever will be. Same with cockapoos, golden doodles, etc etc. 

So, if breeders don't care about a standard, then why are they breeding? 

Answer: to make money. 

That's the only logical choice. 

When Curb or someone with more computer saavy then I have comes along, they can show you the previous designer dog thread. 

It's several several posts long, but I think you'll get an idea about where most of us who don't like the designer dog fad stand. 

You are not presenting any new arguments that we haven't heard before.


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

wrong - the program has not ended - read the correct info only the original breeder has stopped (all breeding for him has stopped)

http://www.labradoodle.com/doodle_history.html - the research center in Australia they are actually correctly called Australian Labradoodle - check also with your guide dogs associations (sp) for confirmation of this info

see also http://www.laa.org.au/index.htm


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Ok, if my info was wrong, I concede the point. 

What about the rest of what I said?


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## Bumper (Mar 28, 2007)

Amitiel said:


> sorry, but it appears if you did not read, or if you did did not understand, what I said in the _entire_ post - I agreed that to breed a x without purpose and only for money is, shall I say, cruel. However, the x cross I am interested in is the labradoodle or golden doodle (doods), the purpose there is to breed a *service dog *that the impaired with allergeries can more easily tolerate. I am and have been following their breeding and realize that they are possibly a few 100s of generations from establishing a standard. But the developed dogs of today, whether for hunting or other, also started with a laughed at crossing and did not reach standard in just a few generations. The golden retreiver was merely an example, check the history of any & every breed (those known by recorded history anyway) the process is extended. The doods are not likely to reach standarization within my lifetime, but maybe within my grand-nephews lifetime.
> 
> 
> 
> but it is broke - there in no large breed that is even close to be a low-shedder that has the temperment, intelligence, and body frame to become a service dog to the impaired with need. "Need is always, the mother to invention." or even improvement.



There's no need to be condescending.

Yes, i read every word you said. And again, my _point_ was very simple. We all know that all breeds start with a cross...why belabor the obvious? But a designer mutt is not a new breed nor is it on the way to being a new breed. A dog designed and bred as a service dog like you are describing is a "breed" or cross with a plan, whether it works or not. It's _not the same thing_ as a designer mutt. You went on and on about how a breed is started...so? WE all know that. People might have laughed at a cross that eventually became a breed...yeah, so? The POINT is the generations and decades between creating a breed and crossing two dogs to make a MUTT.

You like labradoodles and doods. More power to ya. Never said a word against them. They have a breeding program and a plan. If it works, great. If it doesn't, they tried. _It's not the same thing as a designer mutt!_

Very very simple.

Bumper


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Labradoodles as I know them...

The breeders at Tegan Park in Australia started their stock from labradors, poodles and labradoodles from Don Evans, another breeder who had discovered the breed independently of the Guide Dog Association. Those labradoodles were legitimate labradoodles, and they kept records of all subsequent breeding. They also determined which coats were low allergenic. They conducted extensive research and breeding programs to arrive at the dog that has become characterized as a "labradoodle". Contrary to popular knowledge, they are not the product of exclusively mixing in labradors and poodles. Other breeds were used occasionally, for certain characteristics.

The breeders at Tegan Park began calling their dogs, and those descended from that stock by breeders, "Australian labradoodles", to distinguish them from the labrador-poodle mixes that were being indiscriminately produced. The mixes were not quality controlled, many were allergenic, yet people with allergies were misled into buying them, expecting not to get allergic reactions.

However, the International Labradoodle Association (ILA) was set up (2004) originally to help maintain the quality and characteristics of the doodle designer dogs. Yet they now are seeking to call all labrador-poodle crosses "Australian labradoodles". If this is successful, consumers will have no way of knowing whether they are buying what they think they are, and what their health requirements determine they need. The end result will be more abandoned dogs being euthanized because of a careless association and even more careless breeders. Again, in order to be legit you have to separate yourself from what makes you a hybrid or mixed breed breeder. It's not an easy fight when you have associations like the ILA screwing up your vision.


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## Amitiel (Mar 27, 2007)

sorry - I did meant too "ruffle feathers". 

I also never said that designer dogs are or ever will be a good thing. I have had by some in this forum and by vets the labradoodle / golden doodles called designer dogs. The vets are against them (mine has a passion against designer dogs). However, once they researched line, the history, the objected the vets relent on doods, as long as the breeding holds true to any good breeding standards.

As to F1 - yes I know quite well what they are, 2 own me. The only way to acheive breed standard is to breed true to standards set by the hosting club for a guaranteed 3 generations with all & full documentation on parentage. And I had already stated that I agree - anyone breeding for money alone and not to improve has no business being a breeder. I also stated that 3 fo the 4 furbabies I have are rehomes from rescue, the 4th a rehome from a friend / 1-time BYB. I do not "buy" my babies - I will pay an adoption fee (just never had to yet).



Curbside Prophet said:


> Again, in order to be legit you have to separate yourself from what makes you a hybrid or mixed breed breeder. It's not an easy fight when you have associations like the ILA screwing up your vision.


yes I agree - & hope that Tegan Park is able to protect their breeding name & lines.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Amitiel said:


> I also stated that 3 fo the 4 furbabies I have are rehomes from rescue, the 4th a rehome from a friend / 1-time BYB. I do not "buy" my babies - I will pay an adoption fee (just never had to yet).



and this is exactly the point.......


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## Raphael (Mar 25, 2007)

I don't agree with these designer dogs, they are living things too, not fashion statements or to up your own reputation with others.


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Snowshoe said:


> Hypoallergenic guide dogs- the breeding program failed and was discontinued. They are no longer being bred for that purpose. The other thread in question will also illustrate that.


If that's the case then maybe this organisation should change what's on their webpage, and the below from this address:-
http://www.guidedogsvictoria.com.au/faq/guide-dog-faq/

Guide Dogs Victoria
Guide Dog FAQ's

What breeds of dogs are used? 
In Australia, we use mainly Labradors. We have also crossed Labradors with Golden Retrievers, Curly-coat Retrievers and more recently, Standard Poodles, to produce the now well-known Labradoodle. In response to special requests, Guide Dogs Victoria may source other breeds, including German Shepherds from overseas Guide Dog Schools with whom Guide Dogs Victoria has a special relationship.

What are the reasons for experimenting with other breeds?
Some clients have a preference for a certain breed, and we try to meet their needs. The Labradoodle was bred by Guide Dogs Victoria particularly for people who have an allergy to dog hair. The aim was to breed from Guide Dog Victoria's Labrador brood bitches (which have an excellent temperament for Guide Dog work) with the Poodle (which does not shed its coat) to produce a dog that may be more suitable for people with allergies to dog hair. 

Also maybe this other organization should change what's on their webpage, and the below from this address:- 
http://www.eyeofthepacific.org/guidedogs.htm

Eye of the Pacific Guide Dogs & Mobility Services Inc
Guide Dog Program

We are contracted with Guide Dog Association of Victoria, Melbourne, Australia (GDVA) and Royal New Zealand Foundation for the Blind (RNZFB). GDVA scientifically breed and train Labrador retrievers. They also breed and train labradoodles (cross between a Labrador retriever and standard poodle). The labradoodles are dogs given to individuals who have allergies to dog hair. RNZFB provides a large stock of Labrador retrievers. However, they also provide a wide selection of cross breeds.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

The problem is there is no guarentee or proof that any dog crossed with a poodle will be tolerated by allergic people. And no guarentee the dog won't shed. That's the delimna they run into - its not working like they thought it might.

Since you can't control what you get, why continue it? Looks like they've been trying legitimatly for awhile to breed something that works and its not working. The intentions/idea was a good one - but mother nature cannot be predicted at times


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Quincy said:


> If that's the case then maybe this organisation should change what's on their webpage, and the below from this address:-
> http://www.guidedogsvictoria.com.au/faq/guide-dog-faq/
> 
> Guide Dogs Victoria
> ...


How many labradoodle breeders do you know who are breeding their dogs specifically to be service dogs?

How many people pay breeders for these labradoodles to be used specifically as service dogs?

Not many


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Keno's Mom said:


> The problem is there is no guarentee or proof that any dog crossed with a poodle will be tolerated by allergic people. And no guarentee the dog won't shed. That's the delimna they run into - its not working like they thought it might.
> 
> Since you can't control what you get, why continue it? Looks like they've been trying legitimatly for awhile to breed something that works and its not working. The intentions/idea was a good one - but mother nature cannot be predicted at times


If today there was a need then this might happen yet again.

Many years ago there was a vision impaired lady in Hawaii that needed a Guide Dog, and it was her husband's allergy that was aggravated by dogs and they simply couldn't have a dog. Guide Dogs Victoria first thought was to try Poodles, so they sent coat and saliva samples from 33 different Poodles to Hawaii and all the samples were tested on the husband, unfortunately he was allergic to all the Poodle samples so they really couldn't have a Poodle.

The vision impaired wife still needed a Guide Dog and why Guide Dogs persisted in looking for a solution and it was 2 years later that Wally Conran came up with the idea of trying a Labrador Poodle Cross. One such litter of 3 puppies was born and their coat and saliva samples were sent to Hawaii, ONE of the 3 puppies was successful in NOT allergy aggravating her husband, that particular pups name was Sultan who was then brought up and trained as a Guide Dog for that lady. The other 2 puppies that were UNsuccessful and DID allergy aggravate her husband still went on to lead very useful lives but with other people who were not allergic to dogs, one as a Remedial Dog and the other as a Guide Dog

So you see there was no delimna and everything turned out great for everyone, and since then that organisation has provided over 100 Labradoodles as Guide Dogs and Assistance Service Dogs, this whenever there was a requirement for such dogs. Now we are talking about breeders at Guide Dogs with many years of experience in breeding for function as guide dogs, and where allergies are concerned I feel that today they still would allergy test similarly like they did so in the past, and where the intended allergy recipient was being attended to by their doctor or allergy specialist.



Ginny01OT said:


> How many labradoodle breeders do you know who are breeding their dogs specifically to be service dogs?
> 
> How many people pay breeders for these labradoodles to be used specifically as service dogs?
> 
> Not many


Many people with disabilities do not obtain Service Dogs from "breeders", and those that might probably do NOT have the knowledge or the required skills to train Service Dogs. BUT then there is a very small percentage of dog trainers who already have trained dogs before to high standards who probably would, and they might like to train their own Service Dog but this tends to be the exception rather than what generally applies.

Anyway, my suggestion to many people with disabilities is to contact their nearest organizations that breeds and provides Service Dogs for FREE, yes fully trained $38,000 dogs at NO COST and with backup advice and extra training whenever required. Here is one such organization called "Guide Dogs of America", and some brief info below from their website at this address:-
http://www.guidedogsofamerica.org

Q: What is the cost of providing a guide dog?
A: Approximately $38,000 or more, which includes the cost of training the dog and providing instruction for the guide dog user.

Q: How much does it cost to get a guide dog?
A: Nothing. We provide our guide dogs free of charge to blind and visually impaired men and women.

Q. Where are the Guide Dog puppies born?
A. G.D.A. has a new Whelping /Breeding facility lovingly called the Puppy Nursery. The puppies are born in this facility and will remain there until they are eight weeks old. At eight weeks old the pups are placed with pre-screened, volunteer foster families, called Puppy Raisers, who provide care that is necessary for the development of future guide dogs.

Q. Do you accept donated puppies or adult dogs?
A. On occasion we accept puppies or adult dogs from breeders. This is usually done a donation basis. Acceptance of any outside stock into our program is reviewed based on pedigree, temperament, and joint and eye clearances. Any adult dog accepted into our program must pass all physical and temperamental tests required by Guide Dogs of America. Please refer to donating a dog for more information.

Also I noticed this on their website, and the below from this address:-
http://www.guidedogsofamerica.org/partners_12.doc

New Dogs To Match With – More Choices Than Ever

For many years, the breeds most often used for guide dogs were German Shepherds, Labrador Retrievers, and Golden Retrievers. But GDA and other guide dog schools have recently begun to accept Standard Poodles, and strategic crosses between breeds.

Two of our first cross-breeds just recently graduated as guide dogs. One was a cross between a Golden Retriever and a Standard Poodle – a “golden-doodle”. The other was a cross between a Golden Retriever and a Labrador Retriever—a “goldador” or a “golden-lab.” GDA is now raising about 20 mixed-breed puppies.

The goal is to increase the range of dogs available to become guide dogs. A key concern for some people is allergies and like the general population, a portion of people who are blind are allergic to dogs. Poodles and many crosses with poodles don’t produce as much dander as most dogs, which greatly reduces allergy concerns.

Other crosses are an attempt to merge the best traits of two breeds, such as the responsiveness of a Golden Retriever and the confidence of a Labrador. While every breed has a range of personality types, there are some general trends among the breeds bred to become guide dogs.


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