# Prong/pinch collar



## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

okay, I have come to the realization that this is the collar she responds to best. After the crazy episode the other day when she flipped the Halti off her head I was desperate for something to work for the pulling and for any distractions. I went to the pet store and she told me how to correctly use the prong and I was amazed how Dakota instantly was focused. I'm not sure if it's the rattling of the chain or the collar itself. We went for an hour and a half walk today and it was actually a relief that I had some control. I'm not saying that she didn't try to pull EVER but when she tried and I corrected her, she stopped. I do know where I'm taking her for her training that they do believe in these collars and i'm hoping with all the proper training that she will be able to walk with a normal collar one of these days. I swear this dog is soo thick skinned and hardly anything bothers her!
I know some people are totally against these training tools but until you have a head strong big dog or I should say puppy that will only get stronger, it's worth a try


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Having a "head strong" dog is NOT a requisite for the use of this tool. "Head strong" dogs are NOT exceptions in the justification of its use.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

I think you may find that most of the anti-prong collar sentiment...at least the REALLY strong stuff, is directed toward those who use the collar improperly, leave it on their dogs when they are off-lead or unattended, and/or use it as a band-aid fix instead of a training tool with the goal to eliminate its use. Same goes for halti's and some of the other supposedly "gentle" training crutches.

I'm glad you are seeking training advice regarding the collar's use and are working to the point where the prong is no longer required. I think with determination you will discover that you can phase it out very quickly...how fast is a direct result of whether you are willing to put the work in. 

Have you looked into "clicker" training at all? I find it's very helpful in teaching the ability to walk on a loose leash, as the "click" is rather more precise than most people's voice, and the difference between a tight lead and a slight decrease in pressure can be so fast.

Good luck


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

Thank you Shaina for a little more positive attitude. I have never tried clicker training but anything is worth a shot. I love going for walks with my dog and I'm thinking it will poop her out more and she won't go crazy running around the yard and injuring her leg even more. I do take it off after our walks

Curbside Prophet- I was warned by the lady at the store that I'll probably get crap thrown my way for it's use but I believe I am using it correctly and she's starting her training on the 24th so I'm trying to do what's best for her and me. I'm not a real young pup myself so a nice walk is crucial. So what kind of dogs are justified for it's use then?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dakotajo said:


> So what kind of dogs are justified for it's use then?


No "kind" of dog. *I* would only need to use one for extenuating circumstances...like, the dog is due for a euthanasia table, and I've run out of ideas. 

By the way, I'm not flinging crap, but "head strong" dogs are trained everyday without this tool, so I'm merely stating a fact. How you label the dog should not be considered justification onto itself. 

However, if you have more dog than you can handle, you may very well be a candidate.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Dakotajo I have used a pinch collar myself. I have Rottweilers and do rescue and have had a few that were more dog then most anyone could handle without help. I am not THAT big of a person and the collar was helpful. Like Shaina said, it is a tool and once the dog is understanding what is expected of him/her they will likely no longer need the pinch collar. I have a little friend with a 150 pound St. Bernard and she is only 4 foot 11 inches. It is crazy to see her walking that dog. She has needed a pinch collar in the past as well because not only is he stronger then her but he is also more active then any St. Bernard I have ever known in my life. Great dog but the little bit of extra help in the early stages of training was needed there as well. You sound pretty responsible also that you went to find out How to properly use the tool before doing so. Good for you.
I agree that clicker training is something worth looking into for you. For most anyone for that matter.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

dakotajo said:


> Thank you Shaina for a little more positive attitude. I have never tried clicker training but anything is worth a shot. I love going for walks with my dog and I'm thinking it will poop her out more and she won't go crazy running around the yard and injuring her leg even more. I do take it off after our walks
> 
> Curbside Prophet- I was warned by the lady at the store that I'll probably get crap thrown my way for it's use but I believe I am using it correctly and she's starting her training on the 24th so I'm trying to do what's best for her and me. I'm not a real young pup myself so a nice walk is crucial. So what kind of dogs are justified for it's use then?


Look at it this way, if as you say you're not a spring chicken and are overdogged a tad, by using the collar correctly it also keeps you healthy and if you're healthy you can take good care of you and dog. There also is no reason you can't use this collar forever for safe dog walks. You, depending on your ability to learn and your trainer's to teach may be able to eliminate prong down the road. If not just use it for safety.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

thank you all for your input, even you Curbside I have to admit she is more than I can handle. I never knew just how strong this breed was or any other since I've never had a dog pull so bad before. I have arthritis in my hands and they tend to get cramped. I'm not near pension yet but let's just say I'm not even in my thirties anymore If the trainer comes up with something that works well other than the prong I'll be happy with that too. The things I love most about this dog is she's friendly, happy, and makes great eye contact. She can sit, lay down, stay, shake a paw then other paw and I know she loves please she just has to relax a little


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Shaina said:


> I'm glad you are seeking training advice regarding the collar's use and are working to the point where the prong is no longer required.


Very well said. I used the prong with my Betty in Rally training for her heeling, and it worked very well. And within a few weeks time, I was getting to the point to where I could start working towards just a standard collar, and now I only use the nylon collar on her. I personally didn't use corrections with the prong, I allowed her to correct herself. And it worked for her very well.

But for those who have very tough dogs that are reactive, I do not recommend using them. I tried it with Betty, to try and work around other dogs, and it only increased her reactivity, and not by just a little bit. So I immediately stopped using it for that, and only used it in Rally training. So for those who do decide to try and use it on their reactive dogs, just be prepared to stop if the reactiveness escillates. Some people have successfully used them for this, but dogs like Betty, who is a really hard dog (completely ignores pain when reactive), she only became more reactive.


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## Allie3985 (Jul 19, 2008)

I really like how everyone seems to acknowledge that sometimes we don't have all the answers and that ideally no dog would ever have to use a training collar but realistically it is better to get the dog under control with a pincher than let them pull and pull on a flat collar (not good for doggy necks!). I have never used a prong on my dogs (we used them at a shelter I used to volunteer at, not my choice) but have actually used a choke chain (I know, I know, just wait) only during training to get attention, never as a correction. (This means I gave a VERY soft tug. . .almost a jiggle to get the dog to look at me because she was sick of my voice). 

I really don't like the idea of dogs pulling against flat collars, at least a training collar gets their attention quickly so that they stop pulling. Of course, if you have a dog that continually pulls even against a training collar, I would say that the tool isn't working and try something else.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

dakotajo said:


> I never knew just how strong this breed was or any other since I've never had a dog pull so bad before. I have arthritis in my hands and they tend to get cramped.


That's what Berners were breed to do... LOL! I didn't know either... I got a very rude awakening! 

You might want to have a slightly bigger choke collar on as well. That way, if the pinch pops off, you still have her on your leash... Plus, if you make the chain slack, the choke will not even correct her!


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

thanks for that tip, I was thinking that yesterday if the collar popped off what to do! I did have her other collar in my pocket but then was thinking she could be taking off across the street and wouldn't get the other one on her in time. I struggle with prong links to get them together because it hurts the hands but I didn't want to get the quick release one in case that popped off too easily. Off topic here but I can't believe how much she digs!! I thought the walks and going down to the park off leash would burn some energy but she comes home and proceeds to dig everywhere and anywhere!!


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## Trainer (Feb 18, 2009)

Anyway you look at it, if you use a pinch collar, you are using pain to control your dog. A properly fitted Gentle Leader will not sling off and will control a giant dog (or any dog) without pain. I have worked with many giant breed dogs and have never found one I couldn't control with one hand on the GL. I find the GL many times preferable to a pinch or choke collar.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Id say it depends onn the dog. I had a dog years ago that pulled terrably. Put a pinch collar on her and it stopped instantly. No popping on my part nothing. And after a couple months we took it off and she never pulled bad again.

Now on my current dog adversive (the old school choke chain methods I knew) methods were not going to work at all. So I was introduced to the clicker. 

sometimes harnesses that clip in the front work well when a bad puller will not accept a head collar


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

Trainer said:


> Anyway you look at it, if you use a pinch collar, you are using pain to control your dog.


Yes, but you are also using the dog's natural instincts. The pinch collar works because a mother dog or an alpha dog would pinch an unruly dog on the scruff of the neck. You see it all the time at dog parks. So actually, it's quite humane. Also, the pain is not constant.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Corteo said:


> Yes, but you are also using the dog's natural instincts. The pinch collar works because a mother dog or an alpha dog would pinch an unruly dog on the scruff of the neck. You see it all the time at dog parks. So actually, it's quite humane. Also, the pain is not constant.


Mama dog nor the "alpha" dog walks other dogs on lead. This is not a reason to use this tool. The tool is effective when it causes pain, and if we are to preserve our humanity, understanding that, and minimizing the use of this tool demonstrates our humanity...not what dogs do in ritual.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Im certainly not against corrections. But i would agree with that. Very well put 

<<The tool is effective when it causes pain, and if we are to preserve our humanity, understanding that, and minimizing the use of this tool demonstrates our humanity...not what dogs do in ritual.>>>


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

No, that's not a reason to use the tool, I was just saying why it works. Minimizing the use of a pinch collar does not demonstrate our humanity. People tend to see things differently, when they try to walk down the street with a 70+ pound dog that was breed for pulling. If it works, why not use it. One thing we can not do, is ban the use of any one thing (Choke, Pinch, electric etc.). Not only does this take away from your or my freedom, but for some dogs - like the Bernese (or any other breed) - that pulls you done the street, it is sometimes nessissary.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Corteo said:


> Minimizing the use of a pinch collar does not demonstrate our humanity. People tend to see things differently, when they try to walk down the street with a 70+ pound dog that was breed for pulling. If it works, why not use it.


Again, the dog's breed is NOT justification for the use of this tool. I've met and trained many sledding dogs who walk fine on a loose leash, and were taught without a prong collar.

Absolutely by minimizing the use of this tool we demonstrate our humanity. That's why it's called a tool. You use it for an intended purpose, and when the job is complete you put it away. That job is to train the dog to walk on a loose leash, not *just* punish him for pulling, forever. If this were so, the tool is NOT working. I don't know anyone who would/can argue that it's okay to cause the dog pain, just because, and claim to be humane. That's bass ackwards logic. 



> One thing we can not do, is ban the use of any one thing (Choke, Pinch, electric etc.). Not only does this take away from your or my freedom, but for some dogs - like the Bernese (or any other breed) - that pulls you done the street, it is sometimes nessissary.


I haven't read anyone saying they should be outlawed. I have read arguments against the silly reasoning for the use of this tool. Like how we label the dog, or blaming the breed.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Corteo said:


> Not only does this take away from your or my freedom, but for some dogs - like the Bernese (or any other breed) - that pulls you done the street, it is sometimes nessissary.



I did not read this into CP's post. Im pretty sure he is pretty much against Pinch collars but the post did not say they are never necessary. Now when they are necessary well that is clearly going to be an item of contention...

I actually prefer E-collars and buzz collers over pinch and choke collars - they can be used at an exteamly low settings. But I fully understand that they are easaly abused and can still be used to SHOCK the dogs.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Again, the dog's breed is NOT justification for the use of this tool.


I never said it was. 



> I haven't read anyone saying they should be outlawed.


Quite often, people on this forum, come across that way. Not saying you were. I was talking to the forum as a whole



jiml said:


> I actually prefer E-collars over pinch and choke collars - *they can be used at an exteamly low settings. But I fully understand that they are easaly abused and can still be used to SHOCK the dogs like the old ones did.*


That's your opinion, and I agree with the highlighted. How ever, the shock will still cause pain, so it's no different. Your not always pulling on the pinch collar as hard as you can, just has you aren't shocking at the highest setting. Every thing in moderation


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

True just my preference. And let me state that now days im at least 90% pos


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

well.. for instance today we were walking by a mother with her little one in the stroller, these were the first people on our walk that we passed on the sidewalk, Dakota loves people and especially kids so she lunged and jumped towards them, if I had the halti on she would of jumped and lunged way more, I gave her a quick tug and she stopped instantly. This lady didn't look at all pleased with the dog even before we actually passed her. I think just because she's a big puppy some people are uneasy. Afterwards we passed another lady and she wanted to talk and Dakota sat at feet, and we also passed another stroller and she ignored it, so this tool is teaching her to have some control.
This is kind of like when parents aren't allowed to spank their children for fear of abuse charges, but there's a BIG difference between discipline and abuse


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dakotajo said:


> Afterwards we passed another lady and she wanted to talk and Dakota sat at feet, and we also passed another stroller and she ignored it, so this tool is teaching her to have some control.


As you described it, the collar is NOT being used to get behavior. Punishment does NOT teach the dog what to do. Punishment (if effective) reduces the frequency of the behavior (in this case lunging) in the future. You can only get behavior through reinforcement. One day's worth of walks does not qualify the effectiveness of this tool. If you can learn to keep your dog from lunging in the first place (perhaps by walking around people at a distance), reinforce appropriate greeting behavior, and phase out the collar, then and only then can you say you've effectively used the tool. 

But again, due to your limitations, completely phasing out the collar may not be a priority or recommended.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

Indeed, that's why we are starting training classes in 6 days


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## reafe (Jan 12, 2009)

So as I thought, "I bet the first two things that the replies will focus on is clicker training, and using pain. 

Use the prong collar, you see that it works, so use it. Just use it properly. You don't do any jerking around. Get this concept, advantageous and disadvantageous to him. 

You need to practice a foundation of what walking is. Walking with you means _fill in the blank_ and not walking with you means _fill in the blank_

The clicker zombies use treats, pet, praise, back turns, end play time, withhold treat, put dog back in crate, squirt water in the face.

Why can't a pressure from a prong collar looks down upon???

So for walking foundation, put your prong collar on and a 15 foot leash, let the slack go and walk, if he walks past you, to the side and away, or lagging, do a 180 turn in the other direction, give no commands. Eventually, he'll hit the end of the leash and CHECK HIMSELF. Don't check him. Your goal is to get him walking with you in your direction for 10 paces. In variety, instead of 180 turn, you just walk backwards.

Go into an empty field and practice this, work on turns, circles, squares, turns as you would in a busy location. Don't check him. You of course praise him while he walks with you but not high praise as it might break his focus. Get those 10 paces then treat. Then raise the goal, 20 steps of loose leash gets a treat. 

What will he learn, walking with you in your direction means treat, praise and not walking in your direction means he'll check himself. 

Your goal is to make it HIS responsibility to walk with you, not cause he's getting checked.

There are different learnings that take place, there's the check that he gives himself, which is a positive punishment BUT ALSO, if he is persistant and holding the pressure, avoidance learning takes place with negative reinforcement. He learns that walking with you relieves the pressure. Also, positive reinforcement is taking place when he walking with you. So there are many different learnings, clicker folks don't say that. They just think aversion bad. 

Do this walking foundation with a 15 foot leash for 1 week, then a 6 foot leash the next week. You'll get loose leash walking instant. The problem now is just distraction. And that's the thing. You must add distraction to proof it. Practicing at a dog park is the best, just walk around all the untrained dogs that want to play with your dog. Later, you can give the heel command.

MIND YOU, you should practice sits also with distraction while proofing. Use a release word, which is a word that means he can stop that behavior to move. So get your dog into sit, and do whatever to make him break the sit, and if he does, put him back into sit, you may check him. He's not to get up until you give a release word. This should be your third week of training. 

So 2 weeks of loose leash training should get your dog to walk nicely by you. 3rd week is proofing your sit so in distraction, he's paying attention to you. 

Type up koehler dog training in a search engine. That's all you need. Remember, they don't teach, jerking around checks. Actually, to know that you are ready for off leash, they use a sewing thread as a leash, instead of a leash. If you can do heels, turns, sits, downs, recalls with a sewing thread, you can go off leash.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

reafe said:


> So as I thought, "I bet the first two things that the replies will focus on is clicker training, and using pain.


And your point is? 



> The clicker zombies use treats, pet, praise, back turns, end play time, withhold treat, put dog back in crate, squirt water in the face.


Zombies? Squirt water in the face? What the heck are you talking about? 



> There are different learnings that take place, there's the check that he gives himself, which is a positive punishment BUT ALSO, if he is persistant and holding the pressure, avoidance learning takes place with negative reinforcement. He learns that walking with you relieves the pressure. Also, positive reinforcement is taking place when he walking with you. So there are many different learnings, clicker folks don't say that.


I don't think you know very many clicker "folks". I don't think you've met many dogs either. We, the human, want dogs to do the one thing only humans seem to do...walk in a straight, and we want them to do it while giving us attention. Walking in a straight line while ogling us is hardly reinforcing for a dog. Koehler people don't say that. 



> They just think aversion bad.


Explain how aversion is not.



> Practicing at a dog park is the best, just walk around all the untrained dogs that want to play with your dog.


Why would you recommend the worst possible training scenario for practice?


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## drea (Mar 9, 2009)

Tucker was a bad puller; he's much improved now. The first thing I tried that worked really well was the Sensible Harness (with the ring in front). I went from having my arm holding the leash being constantly sore to being able to control my 90 pound dog with one finger -- I kid you not. I stopped using it because it started to chafe him under his armpits. Now I use the GL head collar, and it, too works really well. The other thing I'm using are Ian Dunbar's sit-stay walking techniques (I believe it's a sticky at the top of the page).


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## Trainer (Feb 18, 2009)

jiml said:


> I did not read this into CP's post. Im pretty sure he is pretty much against Pinch collars but the post did not say they are never necessary.


I'll say it. They are never necessary. There is always a way to get the same results without the pain. Every time. Without exception.



> I actually prefer E-collars and buzz collers over pinch and choke collars - they can be used at an exteamly low settings. But I fully understand that they are easaly abused and can still be used to SHOCK the dogs.


E-collars are another tool for people who need to learn more advanced ways of training.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Corteo said:


> You might want to have a slightly bigger choke collar on as well. That way, if the pinch pops off, you still have her on your leash... Plus, if you make the chain slack, the choke will not even correct her!


I personally don't use the choke collar. I used a Dominant Dog Collar as my backup so Betty didn't get loose. Here's the one I have, and I got it a little longer, that way it didn't interfere with the prong. I had the leash hooked to both, and the DDC stayed loose and was there just in case the prong failed.

http://leerburg.com/746.htm



Trainer said:


> Anyway you look at it, if you use a pinch collar, you are using pain to control your dog. A properly fitted Gentle Leader will not sling off and will control a giant dog (or any dog) without pain.


Not all dogs, lol. I don't care how you use the Gentle Leader, it does not work well with Betty because she's so strong in the neck. Even with the GL on, if she's reacting, she's always facing the other dog, and if I reefed on her to get her around, there's more of a risk of damaging or breaking her neck with the GL. I'm finding that with her issues, the best thing I've used so far is the GL Calming Cap. I think this just might give me the edge so I can actually work with her issues, as it's purpose is to eliminate the smaller, finer movements that dogs see, and lowers their fear/anxiety levels, and all they see is the larger movements.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Mama dog nor the "alpha" dog walks other dogs on lead. This is not a reason to use this tool. The tool is effective when it causes pain, and if we are to preserve our humanity, understanding that, and minimizing the use of this tool demonstrates our humanity...not what dogs do in ritual.


Hey, CP, I think you know where I stand on this, hehehe.....

I kind of agree with you to an extent. You say this tool is effective because it uses pain. I only agree 50% on you with this. The other 50% is the use of the tool to work with the dogs comfort levels. I do not use this tool as a 'pain' tool. When I used it with Betty in Rally to teach her proper heeling, I did not use it as a correction 'Pain' tool. I used it as a tool where she corrected herself when she became uncomfortable, then would go back to a loose lead. I did not use pain to control her with a leash pop. It's like with humans, you can work with comfort levels. It goes from comfortable, to a little irratable, to a bit more uncomfortable, to hurting a little, to a bit more pain, and then very painful. I believe dogs can adjust to this as well. And if it really did cause pain with Betty, then I don't think she would have got as far as she did so quickly.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Absolutely by minimizing the use of this tool we demonstrate our humanity. That's why it's called a tool. You use it for an intended purpose, and when the job is complete you put it away. That job is to train the dog to walk on a loose leash, not *just* punish him for pulling, forever.


When using the prong for working with the dogs comfort levels, I do not think you are punishing them. You are just setting a boundary. Another disagreement I have, a tool is something that you do not use 'Forever'. Within 4 weeks, I was already starting to phase the prong collar out with Betty, and after 6 weeks, she was just on her standard collar. I don't think 6 weeks of letting her correct herself is punishing her forever, lol.



Curbside Prophet said:


> As you described it, the collar is NOT being used to get behavior. Punishment does NOT teach the dog what to do. Punishment (if effective) reduces the frequency of the behavior (in this case lunging) in the future. You can only get behavior through reinforcement.


Yes, I got one more thing, lol. Punishment can also increase the frequency and intensity of a behavior as well. Example, using the Prong on Betty when I was trying to work with her reactiveness to other dogs. The prong collar increased the reactiveness exponentially, and I had to immediately stopped using it for this purpose. I only used it for the 5 or 6 weeks in Rally til she really got her heeling down and we moved to just working with a standard nylon collar. Now the prong is put away, probably will never have to take it out again. So I do not recommend it for reactive dogs, but some have actually benefited from it's use.

Now for anyone new here that's reading this and think I'm giving CP a hard time or work over, I'm not, lol. CP knows me well, and knows I respect their views, and I just point mine out as well. That's what these forums are for. I've done this with CP before on a couple other threads reguarding the prong, right CP? hehehe.

Oh, and CP, if you haven't already seen the thread, Betty's DNA test results confirmed what I thought, her Primary Breed is ACD. And it showed she had a little Newfie in her as well, but I don't see it at all, lol.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

I am really thankful for all this information I just never knew it was such a hard task in getting a dog to walk nice. Now I know I have plenty of options to try with her and I'm curious to know how she will do in obedience class. I'm sure the trainer will see how she reacts, all those other dogs she'll be on her best behaviour I'm sure. Sometimes I don't know if I should cry or laugh with this dog, maybe I'm just losing it


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Do me a favor..put that prong collar around your neck and tighten it/apply pressure..you think those little prongs don't hurt very much, but they do.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

LWB

When using the prong for working with the dogs comfort levels, I do not think you are punishing them. You are just setting a boundary. *Another disagreement I have, a tool is something that you do not use 'Forever'. Within 4 weeks, I was already starting to phase the prong collar out with Betty, and after 6 weeks, she was just on her standard collar. I don't think 6 weeks of letting her correct herself is punishing her forever, lol.*

In a perfect world you are 100% correct. In the regular world there are just going to be people that need it as a tool.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

Pepper said:


> Do me a favor..put that prong collar around your neck and tighten it/apply pressure..you think those little prongs don't hurt very much, but they do.



One thing you forgot, is with all the fur on a Bernese (which is her dog), it's more like putting the collar over a thick spring jacket. Just putting it in perspective. Now for a Boxer owner, you should put it on your skin.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Trainer said:


> I'll say it. They are never necessary. There is always a way to get the same results without the pain. Every time. Without exception.
> 
> E-collars are another tool for people who need to learn more advanced ways of training.



This is your opinion and while I dont agree with it totally, I do respect it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Lonewolfblue said:


> You say this tool is effective because it uses pain. I only agree 50% on you with this...I used it as a tool where she corrected herself when she became uncomfortable, then would go back to a loose lead. I did not use pain to control her with a leash pop. It's like with humans, you can work with comfort levels. It goes from comfortable, to a little irratable, to a bit more uncomfortable, to hurting a little, to a bit more pain, and then very painful.


I don't think you're disagreeing as much as you are defining your dog's pain threshold. I don't find this exercise necessary when describing how the tool works. Whether you're introducing pain, or whether the dog is "self correcting", the collar can only be effective if it does cause pain. How you define that level of pain is irrelevant. How you prove the tool is effective *is* relevant but it is not based on a perceived level of pain. It doesn't matter if I *think* the collar causes no more pain than an itch, if the tool proves ineffective. 



> Yes, I got one more thing, lol. Punishment can also increase the frequency and intensity of a behavior as well. Example, using the Prong on Betty when I was trying to work with her reactiveness to other dogs.


By definition, no, punishment does not increase behavior, ever. What you're describing is the result of classical conditioning...the reason this tool and any other punitive tool should be used with caution.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Pepper said:


> Do me a favor..put that prong collar around your neck and tighten it/apply pressure..you think those little prongs don't hurt very much, but they do.


I've tried it, hehe, it doesn't really hurt at all unless you give a physical correction, on me that is. The ends of the prongs are all blunt, not sharp tips..


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

I'm glad some of you know where I'm coming from! and the teeth are rounded off. I do not exist when she has a normal collar on. When I bring out the prong she gets excited and knows we are going for a walk and I would think if it was so much torture she would back off, and when I would take out the halti she would take off, she hated that thing around her nose. Treats don't exist either when she's determined to go. She was socialized alot but you wouldn't think so. Every little thing she hears, smells, sees, she has to investigate and this collar helps keep her focused. Like I mentioned above, my hands can't take it anymore and if it works for her and me then that should be the important thing


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

The fact that she likes it, tells me that the way you are using it is humane. I would encourage you to keep going.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

Thank you!! Sometimes I think she tries soo hard to control herself with things that's she's happy when I can control them. If I was more computer literate I would show you this girl in action. She can't sit still for more than 10 seconds


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## SugarKat25 (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm not one who is extremely against prong collars. I tried on out on my dog, and I tried it around my own wrist before I put it on her. It's not really evil, or painful, just uncomfortable. As a matter of fact, it didn't seem to bother my dog at all, meaning it didn't help. I did find something called the Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness, and that works amazing. I went through chokers, pinch collars and a regular gentle leader, none of which worked with my crazy german shepherd. 

For anyone firmly against the prong/pinch collars, but in need of a solution, I recommend this Gentle Leader Easy Walk Harness. Most harnesses promote pulling, think of a sled dog with the attachment on the back of the dog on the harness. This one has its attachment on the front by your dogs chest, making it nearly impossible for him/her to pull your arm out while walking!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dakotajo said:


> When I bring out the prong she gets excited and knows we are going for a walk and I would think if it was so much torture she would back off





Corteo said:


> The fact that she likes it, tells me that the way you are using it is humane. I would encourage you to keep going.


I would not confuse your dog's excitement for what the collar represents (a walk) with an appreciation for the collar itself. This is an example of classical conditioning. Pavlov's dog salivated at the sound of a bell because he associated the bell with food. Your dog gets excited when you grab your leash and collar because he's associated these antecedents with a walk. All this says is your dog likes walking.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

I'm working with Luna on not pulling, too. I'm seriously confused about using clicker training to teach loose leash walking because I don't WANT my dog to stop, turn around and wait for the darn treat. I want her to keep walking, just without collapsing her windpipe and pulling my arm out of the socket!

Right now I have a 4 month old Akita/GSD pup with an amazing amount of pent up energy because we can't go for adequate walks, because I'm afraid she's going to seriously injure herself. This dog PULLS. I'm talking front legs off the ground pulling when I stop or try to slow her down. I can SEE the pressure on her neck and hear her wheezing. 

So, we'll stop and go the other direction. She's like, "No big deal. I'll just pull going in this direction." 

I did manage to get some loose leash walking (a few seconds worth at a time) last night when we were walking away from the house, but as soon as we turned towards it, she turned back into crazy pulling pup. Then, I ran out of treats (not so sure I want to stick her gut so full of treats, anyway) and things REALLY got bad. I very nearly picked up my 40 pound pup and CARRIED her the rest of the way home (we weren't very far) because I was so worried she'd injure herself.

And most of the "loose leash walking" was her either stopping and turning towards me or turning her head towards me and practically making me trip over her because she's crossing my path in her eagerness to get the treat.

So.. advice for me? Explanation to how clicker training works in this situation? 

My puppy class (mostly socialization) trainer has suggested either a gentle leader (which I saw work AMAZINGLY well on a Viszla puppy) or a plastic prong collar (I think something like THIS ). I don't know that the Gentle Leader will work on Luna... my trainer readily admits it works really well on some dogs, but not at all on others. 

Oh, and we start formal obedience class on April 2nd. The trainer at that facility is thinking he's going to have us skip Puppy Kindergarten and go right into Beginning Obedience because of Luna's size.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I don't WANT my dog to stop, turn around and wait for the darn treat.


You mean your dog can't walk and chew gum at the same time? 



> Then, I ran out of treats (not so sure I want to stick her gut so full of treats, anyway)


If you can get away with using her daily ration of food you're likely to avoid over stuffing her.



> And most of the "loose leash walking" was her either stopping and turning towards me or turning her head towards me and practically making me trip over her because she's crossing my path in her eagerness to get the treat.


In clicker trainer you're taught to click for behavior and reward for position. You should deliver the treat where you want your dog to be next. I imagine you're rewarding across your body and that's why the dog is crossing in front of you. 



> So.. advice for me? Explanation to how clicker training works in this situation?


You simply click for a position, you may or may not click for eye contact too. And reward in that position. Are you stopping as you reward?

I would invest some time in a low distracting, safe enclosure - like a tennis court with gates that close. And just walk laps around the court, with you dog off-lead or on a long drag line. Your dog will do doggy things, sniff, maybe pee, and walk in random pattern like dogs do. When your dog checks in at your side, reward her, and keep walking. What you want to track is what happens over time. Does she check in more frequently as time passes, if so, use this one technique to reinforce that loose leash position.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

Thank you for your response!

Yes, I am rewarding across my body, but as things are now it's the only way I can. Since 99% of the time she is pulling like a sled dog on the leash, I have to have it tightly clasped in the hand closest to her (actually I have to have it wrapped tightly around my hand, otherwise it slips and she is "rewarded" with extra leash when she pulls). 

Unfortunately, I don't know that I can use her daily ration of food as a reward. I haven't been able to actually find a food that she likes. She's pretty indifferent to it, so I've had to invent creative ways to get her to eat it (throwing it around seems to be the most effective.. chasing it is a great fun game). She's also on a bland diet right now while her tummy settles (she had diarrhea problems, but has had normal stool for over a week now). I will definitely try using her regular food as reward, though. Maybe she will like it better in this fashion.

I am not stopping as I reward, just trying to shove the treat in her as quick as I can so she keeps moving. Silly dog, can't multitask apparently. LOL! 

The tennis court idea sounds like a really good one. I will have to bring her in to town this weekend and give it a try (we live about 35 minutes outside of the nearest city/town).


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## drea (Mar 9, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I'm working with Luna on not pulling, too. I'm seriously confused about using clicker training to teach loose leash walking because I don't WANT my dog to stop, turn around and wait for the darn treat. I want her to keep walking, just without collapsing her windpipe and pulling my arm out of the socket!


Here's my experience (also have a large dog): I used the clicker to mark the moment when he was in the "sweet spot", which is right around my left leg while walking. At first he stopped to get the treat, but now he just walks there without getting rewarded every step. I can got 25-30 steps before giving him a treat, and because he's already in that position there is not stopping or turning that he has to do.

We're currently working on giving me eye contact after he's sit, using Ian Dunbar's Sit/Stay Loose-leash walking technique. Basically, we are walking, then if he starts to pull or the leash goes taught, I stop, wait for him to sit (on his own) and look at me, then I take 1-2 steps and do it again. I want him to learn that when the leash goes taught, it either means he's pulling or I've stopped. Either way, I want his focus on me. Focusing on me is not one of his strong points.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

I don't think the plastic prong would be strong enough for her and she has such thick dense fur she probably wouldn't be able to feel it.

CB- Why would she not want to go on a walk then when I take out the halti but gets excited on a prong?? She definately knows these 2 are for walking. EVERY dog is different, maybe you haven't met many head strong pullers but think you have


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Trixie hated the halti at least as much as the prong. We had to settle on the Easy Walk Harness which worked well although My wife would put it on upside down because she didnt like the dog kicking the leash. LOL 

But that harness and Lots of stops and starts w a flat collar worked fine.


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## drea (Mar 9, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> Yes, I am rewarding across my body, but as things are now it's the only way I can. Since 99% of the time she is pulling like a sled dog on the leash, I have to have it tightly clasped in the hand closest to her (actually I have to have it wrapped tightly around my hand, otherwise it slips and she is "rewarded" with extra leash when she pulls).


I clip a 4' leash around my waist, then clip another 4' leash to it. This is a great way to fashion a hands-free leash, and I can release the lead attached to Tucker easily. At 95 pounds, when he wants to go, sometimes even my waist can't stop him.


nikelodeon79 said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know that I can use her daily ration of food as a reward. I haven't been able to actually find a food that she likes.


Tucker *really* likes small bites EVO dog food with a cut-up hot dog, microwaved for 2 minutes as a treat. The EVO dog food is grain-free, with 42% protein, and while it's not cheap, it's cheaper in the long run versus buying crappy HFCS laden treats from the pet stores.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

nikelodeon79 said:


> Yes, I am rewarding across my body, but as things are now it's the only way I can. Since 99% of the time she is pulling like a sled dog on the leash, I have to have it tightly clasped in the hand closest to her (actually I have to have it wrapped tightly around my hand, otherwise it slips and she is "rewarded" with extra leash when she pulls).


You might be able to free up a hand with a hip leash. When she begins to surge ahead do you stop? Or continue walking as you gather her back? I would stop completely and wait for eye contact to reward, lure her into a sit next to you, then resume walking...repeating the process all over again. You might not get very far on that first walk this way, but what happens at walk 10, 20? If you're going farther each time something is working. 



> Unfortunately, I don't know that I can use her daily ration of food as a reward. I haven't been able to actually find a food that she likes. She's pretty indifferent to it, so I've had to invent creative ways to get her to eat it (throwing it around seems to be the most effective.. chasing it is a great fun game).


You might want to try spicing the kibble up. Maybe grating some cheese into it, or wiping you hands with salami or some other greasy meat and wiping the residue through the kibble will peak her interest. You should practice hand feeding at home too...not for free of course, but waiting for eye contact and giving her a piece of kibble may teach her that looking at you is rewarding, and kibble ain't all that bad either.



dakotajo said:


> Why would she not want to go on a walk then when I take out the halti but gets excited on a prong?? She definately knows these 2 are for walking.


Likely because you didn't take the time to condition the Halti, and/or fit it correctly. Haltis use aversion too, and if you don't classically condition the collar, or keep the mouth loop too tight, your dog will refuse to walk. The Halti is NOT something you can throw on the dog and expect him to appreciate. 



> EVERY dog is different


Every dog is different, however, the principles by which they learn are the same, irregardless of the individual dog; just like the principle by which your feet stay firmly planted on Earth is the same principle for mine.



> maybe you haven't met many head strong pullers but think you have


I recommend you stick with facts. Personal accusations and generaltions are not conducive to your forum use.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I would not confuse your dog's excitement for what the collar represents (a walk) with an appreciation for the collar itself. This is an example of classical conditioning. Pavlov's dog salivated at the sound of a bell because he associated the bell with food. Your dog gets excited when you grab your leash and collar because he's associated these antecedents with a walk. All this says is your dog likes walking.



If the dog was getting hurt, then she would hate the collar. What did Dakotajo say about the halti? The dog hated it, it didn't work....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Corteo said:


> If the dog was getting hurt, then she would hate the collar. What did Dakotajo say about the halti? The dog hated it, it didn't work....


CP 
I have to go along with Corteo on this because for whatever reason I have had many dogs that when I go into kennel and put Prong collar on act extremely excited and this is not for a walk, this is for work and work sometimes can be tough. I make no claim of getting inside their heads, I have to make my read on the outside body actions, tails wagging etc. Just trying to confuse the issue a tad. I'm sure there are some that are excited by the possible walk program but not all.
Just as I have had some that are not excited at all because they have an extreme style loss the 1st 2 to 3 weeks of work and then style builds back up. All dogs are not created equal.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Corteo said:


> If the dog was getting hurt, then she would hate the collar. What did Dakotajo say about the halti? The dog hated it, it didn't work....


You can argue with Pavlov all you like, but I don't recommend it. I hear he's pretty hard-headed these days. Now lets dissect what you just said...

"If the dog was getting hurt, the dog would hate the collar." Are you aware that a dog's survival is dependent on his ability to hide injury? If you are, than you're aware of how tolerant dogs are to our abuses. Don't confuse a dog's tolerance with like or dislike. So what if the dog likes walking more than the pain caused by the collar. Our humanity is not defined by what the dog likes, dislikes, or will tolerate. Our humanity is defined by being conscious of the pain we cause the animal; if we do use pain we darn well better acknowledge it, and seek to minimize its use. 

As for the Halti, again, if the dog was not conditioned to the Halti, and/or the Halti was not fitted properly, it's not being used correctly...of course an ill fitted, poorly conditioned Halti will not work. This isn't news. But we're not talking about ill fitted prong collars (which require no conditioning), so we shouldn't talk about an ill fitted Halti. No matter how much you want to sugarcoat it, prong collars are effective when they cause pain. I see no reason to dance around fact.

BTW, the Halti, unlike the prong collar, was not designed to cause pain. It was designed to use leverage. Same with the EasyWalk harness.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

CP- I can tell you like to debate, and it is probably something that we could discuss forever. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you don't know my dog and have never seen her pull or how she can run and run off leash for an hour and still race circles in my yard when we get home and I have a big yard! She's a full force puller and if this works this is what I will use until she can learn to walk without one. All I want is a dog to walk nice with me, geesh this is all I ask!


I take into cosideration everything everyone is telling me on this forum and the prong is working for us at the moment, who knows maybe it won't work for long and I'll have to try other things that have been mentioned here. I truly appreciate every single reply


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

CP is not debating. CP is merely saying there are more humane, and more intillegent ways to train a dog rather than just slapping some pinch collar on to them to achieve what you want.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

I didn't just SLAP some pinch collar on my dog without doing my homework


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

dakotajo said:


> CP- I can tell you like to debate...


I like the topic if it involves dogs, I like to be accurate, and I like stand up for our companions when they can not stand up for themselves. If this is a flaw of mine, I prefer being flawed. 



> All I want is a dog to walk nice with me, geesh this is all I ask!


That's it? Well heck, I saw this on sale last week.









 <==Please take note of emoticon.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I can't agree with that. There are plenty of other methods to use other than a tool. Think of it, if it was never invented, you would have had to use training methods without a tool and use good ol' praise and positive reinforcement.

But since man has decided to create things such as prong collars, choke collars, shock collars, electric fences, etc..no one really relies on training that takes a little while.

We live in a world of instant gratification.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Pepper said:


> CP is not debating. CP is merely saying there are more humane, and more intillegent ways to train a dog rather than just slapping some pinch collar on to them to achieve what you want.


Actually I don't think I've debated alternate methods at all. What I have debated is misinformation that is commonly associated with this tool. 



Pepper said:


> We live in a world of instant gratification.


While this is true, I don't believe dakotajo is seeking instant gratification at the expense of his dog. In fact I think dakotajo has acknowledged that several times.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

Pepper, I don't think you are being fair to Dakotajo. You don't know if she researched or not. Just because she is not using positive reinforcement you assume that she just haphazzardly put on a prong.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Dac If you are comfortable with the prong and it works for you and your dog use it. Others are passionate about there methods and giving you alternatives that they feel are effective. Which by definition are more your humane. They may or may not work well for you and your situation. But they do work.

<<<But since man has decided to create things such as prong collars, choke collars, shock collars, electric fences>>>

dont forget haltis. (which can cause neck injuries)

Also CP, saying avoidence of PAIN can be misleading. Avoidence of Stimuli may be better. Example a pager collar is certainly not causing pain but is used in avoidence training.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

jiml said:


> Also CP, saying avoidence of PAIN can be misleading.


There is nothing misleading in saying a prong collar works by causing pain. What is misleading is to suggest it does not. To do so would be a clear misunderstanding of how the collar does work.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> There is nothing misleading in saying a prong collar works by causing pain. What is misleading is to suggest it does not. To do so would be a clear misunderstanding of how the collar does work.



And in my opinion is why so many people fail to use this collar effectively to deliver one true correction and be done with the collar. This to me is where the usage of a collar like this becomes abusive in that with such under the threshold stimuli a dog is merely subjected to repeated nagging discomfort and all of the issues that MAY result.

Is'nt it after all the idea in the use of aversive based correction methods to make the dog choose not to experience the uncomfortable or painful event again?

Without discomfort or pain the tool becomes for the most part useless and ineffective as mentioned so why bother using the tool in the first place?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

sparkle said:


> And in my opinion is why so many people fail to use this collar effectively to deliver one true correction and be done with the collar. This to me is where the usage of a collar like this becomes abusive in that with such under the threshold stimuli a dog is merely subjected to repeated nagging discomfort and all of the issues that MAY result.


Just one inherent problem with that, Joe Shmoe doesn't have the mechanical skill, nor the dog reading abilities to deliver that one perfectly timed correction. Good in theory, poor in practice. 



> Is'nt it after all the idea in the use of aversive based correction methods to make the dog choose not to experience the uncomfortable or painful event again?


No. The aversion is not meant to give the dog a choice between comfort or discomfort. The dog is meant to associate the aversion with doing or not doing a behavior. If the dog were to choose between comfort or discomfort and the aversion is too much, would fleeing in pain, or directing aggression onto his owner be acceptable? Of course not. The aversion needs to be severe enough to be effective (meaning it must be tested), but not so severe that you introduce unwanted, respondent behavior.

Thus the necessity to get expert instruction when using such a tool. 



> Without discomfort or pain the tool becomes for the most part useless and ineffective as mentioned so why bother using the tool in the first place?


I have to agree, and I am so bold to say the ineffective use of such a tool is tantamount to abuse.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

I find it interesting that the discussion has moved beyond "helping" someone and into flaming. Yes, flaming...to assume that someone is too lazy or cruel to "correctly" train an animal by your methods, is the height of arrogance. Also, to assume that dakotajo didn't bother to think or research the use of the pinch collar is arrogance. The use of this collar is not abuse. What is abuse is no training or just letting it go.
Have you had experience with this dog? Only one person has. Do you own a breed of this size or strength? If not why are you assuming that your way is superior. Remember each dog is different and unless you've been exposed to this dog then state your preferred training method and leave it at that. But to insinuate that there is no research, and the use of this method is abuse is wrong.
The lack of respect is starting to water down your arguments. I hope that a moderator would curb this activity before it turns into flaming.

"If the dog is bolting down the street, then you have no dog to give a treat to."


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> There is nothing misleading in saying a prong collar works by causing pain. What is misleading is to suggest it does not. To do so would be a clear misunderstanding of how the collar does work.


I would think that saying it is aversive is more correct than saying it causes pain. I dont think anyone can argue that a prong collar can cause pain, It certainly is a negative stimuli in all instances when a correction is given regardless of ones definition of pain.

People hear its causes Pain and they are using their definition of pain not the True definition you use of any unpleasent sensation regardless of how mild.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

sparkle said:


> And in my opinion is why so many people fail to use this collar effectively to deliver one true correction and be done with the collar. This to me is where the usage of a collar like this becomes abusive in that with such under the threshold stimuli a dog is merely subjected to repeated nagging discomfort and all of the issues that MAY result.
> 
> Is'nt it after all the idea in the use of aversive based correction methods to make the dog choose not to experience the uncomfortable or painful event again?
> 
> Without discomfort or pain the tool becomes for the most part useless and ineffective as mentioned so why bother using the tool in the first place?


Sparkle
Well in a perfect world one correction could do it I suppose, I just have never met a one correction dog. If I was training a dog that could be trained with one proper correction with a prong collar, in all probability I would be using a much easier collar. A dog soft enough that only one correction was needed actually could be ruined with one overpowering correction. Think about it 1st, a correction must be given to read dog's reaction to the correction. As an avid prong collar trainer am I first going to pop a dog hard in order to finish whatever phase of training I am doing with one pop. No I am not. Now, understand there will be no nagging a dog into obedience with multiple unnecessary pops. Once I have a proper read of the mental strength of the dog I would proceed as needed. The only reason I am replying is that there may be somebody reading these replies that think Golly, I'll just pop that lead and prong collar 1 time very hard and my dog will be better for it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Corteo said:


> I find it interesting that the discussion has moved beyond "helping" someone and into flaming. Yes, flaming...to assume that someone is too lazy or cruel to "correctly" train an animal by your methods, is the height of arrogance.


No one has flamed anyone, and frankly backseat moderating is discouraged on our forum. If you have a problem with a post, report it. If there's any credence to your claim, the post will be dealt with, or otherwise ignored.



> Remember each dog is different and unless you've been exposed to this dog then state your preferred training method and leave it at that.


Yes, each dog is different, but again, the principles by which they learn are the same. More to your point, no one knows this dog or handler, therefore no one can discuss what is the appropriate handling of this dog beyond discussing the principles of learning. 



> But to insinuate that there is no research, and the use of this method is abuse is wrong.


I don't know what you're reading, but no one insinuated this. Absolutely there is research on how pain motivates animals. We need to thank all those animals that suffered our abuse in the name of science. There's no need to abuse animals today, and what exactly is the harm in offering caution when using this tool? Do you want to use a prong collar ineffectively? If so, you're boarding on abuse. There's no reason, not a one, that a dog should suffer from the ineffective use of a training tool. And there's no argument you can present to justify it. 



> The lack of respect is starting to water down your arguments. I hope that a moderator would curb this activity before it turns into flaming.


Again, no one is disrespecting anyone. Clearly you have a problem with diverging opinions. This is not a forum problem. 



> "If the dog is bolting down the street, then you have no dog to give a treat to."


And this is a quote of ignorance. To assume someone who does use food reinforcers is someone who is not disciplined in their own right is just absurd.


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