# Pop Culture Pack Theory



## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

Like many, I've noticed many people in the dog circles talking about "Pack Behavior" and the dog whisperer guy. I bite in to very little of this, especially when we're talking about Human to Dog interaction. I can't say that I've watched many of the Dog Whisperer shows, I've only seen snips here and there, but my first instinct is, the guy is more or less a fake. What's everyones thought on the relevance of Pack Structure when training a dog ? One observation I've made, is the people really high on this pack theory are usually, in fact, dominant types, so there may be psychological "thing" going on there.... When speaking of dog to dog behavior, the social structure of pack becomes a bit more relevant but not as crazy as people are making it out to be. These are just my thoughts as I'm no expert. Steve


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

The pack theory talked about by most people (no dogs on bed, no dogs eating before you, no dogs walking through doors before you) is largely irrelevant to dog training at all.

I have been reading up a bit on this theory and it's validity... one article I found quite interesting was this one:

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm


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## LittleMoonRabbit (Jan 7, 2008)

I don't know if I necessarily believe in wolf pack structure... but I do believe the dog needs to know that you, as the owner, are the "dominant one" or the "head of household". They need a person to look to for guidance. I'm not sure if that is "pack structure" or more like our own "Parent/child" structure... as long as the dog has some kind of structure, where the owner and other humans come first.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

SK63 said:


> I've only seen snips here and there, but my first instinct is, the guy is more or less a fake. What's everyones thought on the relevance of Pack Structure when training a dog ?


Just out of curiosity. Without seeing much of his show, reading his books, talking to him or watching him do anything, what makes you say he's a fake? You may not agree with methods or ideas, but you do realize that the reason that he has a show to begin with is because he has a lot of very satisied dog owners from before a TV show was even a thought?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

We're still trying to figure out dogs and their behaviors. There have been many rather narrow studies looking at specific interactions and the conclusions are often open to interpretation. Your mention of the dog whisperer brings to mind the yard full of 50 dogs...is that truely a pack or does it fit the herd mentality (model) better and are the interactions different?
Even in a herd, there is a 'leader'... someone making the decision of when to drink/where to drink or eat...the dog whisperer feeding all the dogs...but, does that really make him Alpha....is there an Alpha in a herd? I think of cows following the one with the bell...but, is she an Alpha?


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

LittleMoonRabbit said:


> I'm not sure if that is "pack structure" or more like our own "Parent/child" structure... as long as the dog has some kind of structure, where the owner and other humans come first.


Not to sound harsh, but to me this statement is contradictory. In a parent\child relationship there should be *nothing* that comes before the child. To me, that's a big part of the problem with the "dog culture", is that people have really bought into the dogs as my kids theory. They're not treated like dogs, they are treated just like people. I spoil my dogs, and treat them better than a lot of dogs I know, but there's never any question in my mind as to whether they are actually dogs or not.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

After being home with my dogs for 10 months now, I can tell you there is definitely a "structure" going on in their interactions. However, the lineup changes depending on situation and environment. In the house, the Saint Bernard seems to keep everyone in check with glances and posture. In the yard, the male Malamute decides when it's play time or rest time. The others will try to play and wrestle, but if he's not in the mood, no one plays. On walks, the Husky hangs slighlty forward of the others and nips when one tries to pass. When visitors arrive, the female Malamute tends to be the pushy one moving the others back until she has gotten her whiff of scent, then it's ok for all the dogs to move in. Now I'm not an accredited scientist or anything, but selling cars for nine years teaches you a lot about body language, voice tones, and observation. What *I* see is a "pack structure" that seems to change constantly depending on the stimulus. All of the theories and studies I've read about dog packs seem very generalized. Taking only wolf pack structure or feral domestic dog structure into account. It would be interesting to see if there are writings out there that study a household of five domestic dogs. I haven't found one yet. Getting more specific like that would, in my opinion, help the study of pet dogs tremendously. Then we could start studying cats that get involved in the social structure with dogs, because they play their role too. I see my job as having ultimate authority to break up their structure for my needs.


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## rogueslg71 (Dec 6, 2007)

SK63 said:


> Like many, I've noticed many people in the dog circles talking about "Pack Behavior" and the dog whisperer guy. I bite in to very little of this, especially when we're talking about Human to Dog interaction. I can't say that I've watched many of the Dog Whisperer shows, I've only seen snips here and there, but my first instinct is, the guy is more or less a fake. What's everyones thought on the relevance of Pack Structure when training a dog ? One observation I've made, is the people really high on this pack theory are usually, in fact, dominant types, so there may be psychological "thing" going on there.... When speaking of dog to dog behavior, the social structure of pack becomes a bit more relevant but not as crazy as people are making it out to be. These are just my thoughts as I'm no expert. Steve



dog whisperer makes it very clear that he is not TRAINING dogs, he is rehabilitating them. in some cases, he helps with training the dog , but mostly its rehabilitating. also i think its hard to jump to the conclusion hes a 'more or less a fake' when hes got famous clients and clients from all over the place have successful results with him. you cant argue with results so i think its unfair for you to call him fake. he also doesnt just talk about 'pack' leader, he also talks about exercise, discipline and affection, its a package deal you dont just 'be dominant' and things fall into place. 

i think the pack structure idea 'helps' in regards to training, but its not the 'big idea' when it comes to training, training is just repetition and relating good things (treats/praise) to doing certain actions when certain words or signals are given. the dog whisperer also talks a lot about how a dog can trust you but not respect you. he might do something for a treat but that doesnt mean he wont bite you if you try to take the treat out of his mouth and that type of situation dog whisperer runs into a lot of times. he doesnt focus on training the dog, but getting the dog to respect you enough to where ifyou 'project' that you want somtehing , the dog will let you have it instead of running away or fighting you for it - those type of situations.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I have mixed emotions on this post..... 

first in a house with one or two dogs you may not see pack behavior and dynamics in a multi-dog household you do see it and you must be aware of it in order to keep a peaceful house. In a house with seven dogs I watch the pack dynamics every day....I see who humps who, I see who is the enforcer and who just sits back and watches but keeps a firm grasp on who does what..... I see the mothers play with their puppies and discipline the others.... so pack dynamics are definitely there ...... 

as far as in training.... I think alot of the "you must be the alpha" and the whole alpha thing is overdone. I have never given pack dynamic much thought in my training ..... when I train for obedience I don't give it much thought..... when I am introducing a new dog to the pack I think about it all the time..... I know which dogs of mine will accept a new member of the pack... I know who is going to be more reserved and I know who is going to set the rules of the pack and I have seen a bit of tension in my house recently as the two new puppies are figuring out where they fit and the dynamic is changing a bit. 

so do I see it yes.... do I try and work with it... yes..... but again I have seven retrievers living in this house..... and I think there is a difference between a multi multi dog house and the average pet owner who has a couple dogs. 
s


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

I agree for the most part Shalva. I do think though, even with 1 or 2 dog households, when the dog isn't made aware that it won't be the leader in the house, then it's not much different than having that many more dogs. Does that make sense?


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

the-tenth said:


> I agree for the most part Shalva. I do think though, even with 1 or 2 dog households, when the dog isn't made aware that it won't be the leader in the house, then it's not much different than having that many more dogs. Does that make sense?



I am of the belief that most dogs know.... you hold the food bowl, you open the door.... you control everything.... I dont think dogs are delusional aobut their position in the household. 
s


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Shalva said:


> and I think there is a difference between a multi multi dog house and the average pet owner who has a couple dogs.
> s


Exactly. I've seen people change the entire relationship with their dog into a constant battle for supremecy in trivial events. I also don't spend my training time trying to "alpha" my dogs into submission. It's more like being a puppet master without strings, letting the dog learn the results of certain actions that he chooses. When play starts to turn too rough for my tastes, all I have to do is stand at the door with that stern hands on the hips posture and they all walk away to their places. However, I'm not convinced they see me as alpha, I see them not wanting to go inside and lay down together for an hour.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I am of the belief that most dogs know.... you hold the food bowl, you open the door.... you control everything.... I dont think dogs are delusional aobut their position in the household.
> s


You don't think some dogs actually believe that they run the humans too? Some people don't control everything. Doggie doors so they can go out whenever = nobody holding the door. Free feeding = food is just always there. I'm not so sure it's delusional. I think some dogs are actually in control.



harrise said:


> However, I'm not convinced they see me as alpha, I see them not wanting to go inside and lay down together for an hour.


But when you speak up, they stop right? I would say there's the proof that they see you as the leader. Not because you're alpha rolling them out the door, or anything like that.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

> Like many, I've noticed many people in the dog circles talking about "Pack Behavior" and the dog whisperer guy. I bite in to very little of this, especially when we're talking about Human to Dog interaction.


 Do dogs form packs with humans?...an interesting question. Certainly dogs are social beings, much like us. But do they form packs with us? I don’t know this to be true. From the minute we bring a dog into our home, if we do not give the dog a reason to stay, they are surely gone. This doesn’t sound like packing is important…this speaks to the true nature of dogs and how they are innocently selfish. 



> I can't say that I've watched many of the Dog Whisperer shows, I've only seen snips here and there, but my first instinct is, the guy is more or less a fake.


 No, Cesar is real, and his methods have been around for quite a long time. How he and others have justified them, however, is largely unsubstantiated, and can be explained easily with alternate theories. 



> What's everyones thought on the relevance of Pack Structure when training a dog?


 Since the pack structure is largely determined by maintaining and controlling resources, pack structure has no relevance or utility. I take that back…if someone, by believing in living as Alpha, their communication improves, there may be utility yet. 




> One observation I've made, is the people really high on this pack theory are usually, in fact, dominant types, so there may be psychological "thing" going on there....


 I haven’t noticed this. This is purely speculation on your part. 



> When speaking of dog to dog behavior, the social structure of pack becomes a bit more relevant but not as crazy as people are making it out to be.


 If the dog can pee on it, sniff it, lick it, eat it, hear it, see it, poo on it, bite it…that’s where you will find the relevance. But, since you can’t pee on a concept (perhaps I am right now), pack theory has no relevance, even in the dog to dog relationship.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Shalva said: 


> I am of the belief that most dogs know.... you hold the food bowl, you open the door.... you control everything.... I dont think dogs are delusional aobut their position in the household.


Oh ye of little faith.  I would bet that between 30-50% of all corgis are POSITIVE they run the household and graciously allow the humans to manage it for them.  

Seriously, I do think some dogs are worse about 'taking charge' than others- but some people are worse than others about letting them! With a lot of dogs- especially just one or two altered pet dogs of generally sound temperment- the whole thing just never becomes an issue. When you add intact dogs- or multiple dogs, period- to the group, it starts to get more complicated. And it *does* vary by breed, to some extent- certain personality traits are selected for with genetics and breed as much as retrieving or herding style.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Thought about it during our walk... I guess what I'm getting at is to not put yourself necessarily on the dogs level of conciousness, but to be conscious of his level. Everything just seem to fall into place from there.
Oh, my guys (and girls) free feed. The food has to get there somehow, and that's me.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

harrise said:


> Thought about it during our walk... I guess what I'm getting at is to not put yourself necessarily on the dogs level of conciousness, but to be conscious of his level. Everything just seem to fall into place from there.
> Oh, my guys (and girls) free feed. The food has to get there somehow, and that's me.


For the record, I wasn't bashing free feeding. But a lot of people on here use NILF, so I used that as an example. The dogs pretty much eat when they want, so they are the ones controlling when they eat. While you do work for the paycheck that buys the food, open the bag, and keep the bowl full, the dogs ulimately control when they eat and how much. Not saying it's bad or good, right or wrong, just saying...


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## Amberjam (Jan 11, 2008)

i watch the dog whisperer all the time because its very interesting. now, whether you believe in his method of explaining the pack settings, his methods work well. unless the show is a complete fake, he is still a wonderful trainer. i also bought his puppy training book, which other than the word choice, the methods are pretty similiar to any other training book you can buy.....

thats my 2 cents!


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

the-tenth said:


> For the record, I wasn't bashing free feeding...


I didn't take it as a bash. I should have added, I believe the lingering smell from my handling the food helps in the overall association.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

The idea of the so-called "alpha dog" came from some very problematic research. Same thing with the whole dominance- submissiveness paradigm.

What we are trying to achieve is not dominance, but leadership. And leadership is very much tied in with both instinctual behavior and with human-dog interaction.

On the one hand, dogs are not so stupid as to think that their human handler is simply another dog that happens to walk on two legs. On the other hand, if a dog perceives that their human handler is not leading, they will take over the leadership position themselves. 

Some dogs - and some breeds - are natural "testers". They are constantly testing their leaders - be they dogs or humans - to see if they are still capable of leading. Other dogs- and other breeds - are more accepting of a human leadership once it has been established. 

Most "rules" tend to be oversimplifications. Think of them as hints rather than something cast in stone. 

So, for example, when you read - or see on TV - the "rule" that a dog can never be in front of you on a walk or going through a door, it is an oversimplification. Working dogs often work 'in front' of their handler, but there is never any doubt who is the leader in that relationship. However, it takes a long time to train a working dog and it is definitely easier to apply this particular rule than not to apply it.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

rogueslg71 said:


> dog whisperer makes it very clear that he is not TRAINING dogs, he is rehabilitating them. in some cases, he helps with training the dog , but mostly its rehabilitating. also i think its hard to jump to the conclusion hes a 'more or less a fake' when hes got famous clients and clients from all over the place have successful results with him. you cant argue with results so i think its unfair for you to call him fake. he also doesnt just talk about 'pack' leader, he also talks about exercise, discipline and affection, its a package deal you dont just 'be dominant' and things fall into place.
> 
> i think the pack structure idea 'helps' in regards to training, but its not the 'big idea' when it comes to training, training is just repetition and relating good things (treats/praise) to doing certain actions when certain words or signals are given. the dog whisperer also talks a lot about how a dog can trust you but not respect you. he might do something for a treat but that doesnt mean he wont bite you if you try to take the treat out of his mouth and that type of situation dog whisperer runs into a lot of times. he doesnt focus on training the dog, but getting the dog to respect you enough to where ifyou 'project' that you want somtehing , the dog will let you have it instead of running away or fighting you for it - those type of situations.


If he's simply rehabilitating then that's one thing but at the dog park, I constantly hear references to Cesar on the subject of training. I bet I hear it 4-5 times a week ! It's usually women with pup's or younger dogs stating something to the effect of.."I've watched Cesar and I know I have to be the Pack leader or Alpha". When I hear someone throwing the term "Alpha" out there, it seriously concerns me. What's their idea of being an Alpha ? Whapping the dog with a baseball bat ? Yelling and screaming in the dogs face ? kicking it ? Alpha Rolls ? ..I mean, I don't know.

After posting today, I came across one of the women I know is a Cesar fan and mentioned the same thing I did in my original post today. The woman went crazy on me, she was like a Rabid Coyote. I must say, I'm starting to sense some Cult like following with this Dog whisperer guy but whatever works I guess. The basis of calling him a fake was purely instinctual and based on first impression, I'm usually right on this but I don't expect everyone (or anyone) to agree. Steve


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I don't know about packs and all that, but I don't think it relates to humans too much. When Ollie goes to the dog park, he forms packs there. The humans there are not part of these packs. There's an alpha at the dog park, but once I ask him to come, he comes.. does that make me super-duper-alpha?

Seriously, though, I just show him respect for what he is - a dog. I want some respect back in certain things that bother me, but that's about it. Most of the dominance stuff I roll my eyes at, I see some people watching Ollie roll on his back to me, and say "Heh that's a dog that knows his place". I am like "um... maybe he just wants a belly rub...?" and rub his belly, happy dog.

If there is some kind of pack structure going on in relation to humans... then it's so far removed from what most people's concepts of it are that it's bizarre. I had a guy tell me he bites his pit bull on the nose when it does something wrong. I asked "Uh, why not just say no?" He laughs like I just told him the sky is purple and says "That's how mother dogs punish the puppy!".

Some people are surprised that Ollie walks in front of me, telling me he's trying to lead me. I'm like... maybe he's just excited? Having fun? Entertained? But I usually respond with "Uh, what about dog sledders and other working dogs that either are off lead, or pulling in front of the handler?" They usually are stumped or tell me "That's different!"

So I don't know about any of this pack stuff, I treat him like I would a family member - and that doesn't mean spoiling them. I don't spoil my family members! If I do something he doesn't like, he lets me know. If he does something I don't like, I let him know. If he wants to do something and I don't, sometimes I do what he wants, sometimes I compromise, other times I don't do anything. Seems to work well enough for us.

That's my take on the pack theory. Maybe it has it's merits, but I've only seen the structure it speaks of among dogs, not me. I don't know what I'd do with a dog that tried to be "dominant' over me.. I'd probably laugh and ignore it.


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## rogueslg71 (Dec 6, 2007)

SK63 said:


> If he's simply rehabilitating then that's one thing but at the dog park, I constantly hear references to Cesar on the subject of training. I bet I hear it 4-5 times a week ! It's usually women with pup's or younger dogs stating something to the effect of.."I've watched Cesar and I know I have to be the Pack leader or Alpha". When I hear someone throwing the term "Alpha" out there, it seriously concerns me. What's their idea of being an Alpha ? Whapping the dog with a baseball bat ? Yelling and screaming in the dogs face ? kicking it ? Alpha Rolls ? ..I mean, I don't know.
> 
> After posting today, I came across one of the women I know is a Cesar fan and mentioned the same thing I did in my original post today. The woman went crazy on me, she was like a Rabid Coyote. I must say, I'm starting to sense some Cult like following with this Dog whisperer guy but whatever works I guess. The basis of calling him a fake was purely instinctual and based on first impression, I'm usually right on this but I don't expect everyone (or anyone) to agree. Steve


the thing im trying to say is that dog whisperer is not a fake and he makes it clear what he is doing and it is not focused on 'training'. he tries to tell the difference to people but of course there are tons of people who only see bits and pieces of the show and they call anything that has to do with getting a dog to do what they want 'training'. thats not the dog whisperer's fault. why dont you watch a few shows to hear what he has to say on different cases so you know 'exactly' what youre talking about instead of just basing things on a few glances.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

rogueslg71 said:


> the thing im trying to say is that dog whisperer is not a fake and he makes it clear what he is doing and it is not focused on 'training'. he tries to tell the difference to people but of course there are tons of people who only see bits and pieces of the show and they call anything that has to do with getting a dog to do what they want 'training'. thats not the dog whisperer's fault. why dont you watch a few shows to hear what he has to say on different cases so you know 'exactly' what youre talking about instead of just basing things on a few glances.


I just did a quick search on Cesar, nearly everything that came up was training, so I'm not sure where you're coming from on this


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Interesting. I just did a google search, and there is one mention of training on the first page of results. That references training owners. Again, instead of bashing someone based on what someone else writes, you could actually see for yourself what he says and does. Before every segment he says, I train owners and rehabilitate dogs. And you blame him because people take his show and run with it, and try the stuff he does (when he specifically has screen at the beginning and end of all the shows, that says do not attempt any of these techniques), and try to do things that I'm sure he wouldn't even dream of doing. I read a post a few weeks ago that a girl scout leader was a Cesar fan, and "training" all the girls's dogs. The poster said when she arrived the leader was basically hanging one of the dogs with its leash. I like the show, and my wife is currently enjoying his first book. I have seen most of the show (if not all of them) for entertainment. I have yet to see him hang any dog. In fact, he makes it a point when snapping the leash, to tell the owners to snap it sideways in order to pull the dog off balance so that the mind has to refocus. I guess it's his fault that this woman is running around choking dogs claiming to be a little cesar?


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

C'mon, lets keep discussing 'pack theory' and not head down the cesar road. He is a lot calmer and less invasive to dogs this season.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

harrise said:


> C'mon, lets keep discussing 'pack theory' and not head down the cesar road. He is a lot calmer and less invasive to dogs this season.


Can anyone reference a study or credible data which involves pack structure of Humans and Dogs? I would like to see a study of related Wolves in the wild too, has this been done and how does it relate to the now popularized pack theory training method ?


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

I have been googling my eyes out looking for something along those lines. It seems like that's the only structure that hasn't been studied. Like I said, I'm no scientist, but if that's the relationship we are interested in enhancing, shouldn't we study dogs _in their home environments_? If I find one, rest assured the link will be posted.


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## rogueslg71 (Dec 6, 2007)

SK63 said:


> I just did a quick search on Cesar, nearly everything that came up was training, so I'm not sure where you're coming from on this


maybe you dont know where im coming from because youre talking about something you've never even seen a lot of. 

searching on google will give you results that OTHERS write about cesar. these include both people who have seen the show and people who have never watched a full show, and people who are just making up crazy things. also another poster clarified that he 'trains' humans'. 

like i said...if eveyrone keeps calling what he does training - he cant stop that and its not his fault. please look into what CESAR is doing and make your own conclusion so you have something concrete to refer to instead of more opinions.


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

Most of the training I do is based off of pack-oriented training mixed with a bit of NILF training. I've tried many other types of training methods, but this has been the one that has worked for me time and time again for dogs ranging from the little guys to rhodesian ridgebacks, rotties, huskies, etc. Of course, most of the training I've had to do was breaking dogs of bad habits and basically becoming more stable, not learning to do tricks. 

You have to remember that Cesar Millan works with dogs with issues that need to be corrected. He's not so much "training" them as he is balancing them. The advice you learn from his show and his books is basically how to live in harmony with your dog, by becoming a leader of the pack. I honestly believe that, as domesticated as our pooches are, they still retain instinctive behaviors. If a dog still has instinct to mark their territory, why wouldn't they retain their instinct to be a member of a pack? The problem really lies in the fact that people don't use this method of "training" correctly, thus giving it a bad name. They use it as an excuse to be forceful and intimidating, when that isn't how it works.

Also, if Cesar Millan was a fake, he sure did a good job faking his way from being homeless to being where he is today. I'd say he must be doing SOMETHING right if he built his business from nothing to a facility that was blooming from word-of-mouth alone before the show even came to be.

Oh and if it helps any, I used to work with wolves at the zoo I volunteered at. The techniques I used with them I use with regular dogs and only difference I've noticed is that wolves can be a bit harder to gain their respect, but that's because they are more instinctually driven.

I'd post a bunch of articles about pack mentality, but it probably won't prove anything. It's all really a matter of opinion, but MY opinion is that using pack mentality has always been the best way to go for me. I'm also 5ft 110 lbs and able to control a pack of large, active dogs without so much as having to shout or be forceful.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

rogueslg71, Cesar has used his show as a marketing stepping stone in to training. Without even listening for it, today I heard 2 people in the neighborhood doing "shhhh" with the finger thing. I don't think there is any evidence that dogs think of humans as part of a pack. I am extremely concerned that people will get carried away with this pack leader "Be the Alpha" training and have negative consequences on the dog and their training. That's all.


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## clipclop (Dec 12, 2007)

I have been watching the new season of Dog Whisperer. I think he is really making it a point to hammer home to people the reason why he might choose a particular exercise. Above all- he stressed exercise as a method for rehabilitating a lot of "bad" behaviors. Most of the dogs you see on this program have issues because they are locked up in their house allll day and just create trouble! To be honest, a lot of people that finally go to Cesar- have had issues for YEARS with a particular dog. Its amazing even still ... that the things we here on the forum might think are common sense, when Cesar tells them "you need to walk your dog with a purpose, etc" they act as if they've just been handed gold. These things just never occured to these owners. I've also seen more than my fair share of WEAK owners where the dogs really do run the house. Cesar looks at them like they are insane! ... and to be honest... I would to. Anyone catch the show with this older married couple where the WIFE has been sleeping on the couch for 6 years, because the husband couldnt figure out a way to get a 7 pound dog down from the bed. Unreal! So, its this sort of stuff that i'm sure none of us would dream of tollerating that he ends up addressing with owners. Its been said a million times, but if you train your dog properly from the beginning you drastically decrease the need to "rehabilitate" your dog from any unwanted behavior.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

clipclop said:


> Its been said a million times, but if you train your dog properly from the beginning you drastically decrease the need to "rehabilitate" your dog from any unwanted behavior.


Unless you adopt a rescue, or four... Then you *know* you're in for a long haul.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

I just looked over this and boy, I wrote a lot. Hope I was comprehensible and nobody's eyes cross.

I don't understand why a lot of people find a non word so annoying, Or am I misinterpreting?

I say shht. to my dogs when they're not paying attention to me and it always works for me. I don't think Caesar invented it though, just made the non word famous. I think it's just a noise that gets their attention and done in a way that's not invasive to others that may be around you. I also say abbbbababa too. Nonsense words can work as well as Sitz. What ever works for the individual IMO. It's better than, say, HEY Sh*thead! Look over here. OI! is another favorite of mine. Usually when they're getting a little out of control.

As for Pack theory, I have 6 dogs that live, play eat and sleep in the same house all day every day. Yes they do obviously act as a pack sometimes, usually when playing. The rest of the time, they're 6 individuals occupying the same house, but, every day I do see instances of what could be termed pack status or theory. I guess. I never really paid that much attention to this until I found DF.

Cookie always wants to lick and show submission to Cassie and Sam but she's a total bully with Ginger and occasionally challenges Cassie but only over toys. 

Pepper shows submission to every one. 

Ginger beats Pepper and Cocoa up but only if they get too close when she's eating.(Ginger's 10 lbs and the other two are labs) Everyone else is allowed to stand close but she won't back of her dish until it's clean.( I use this as she's a picky eater and the chances of her cleaning her bowl are better if there's 5 salivating dogs staring at her)

Cocoa only shows unsolicited submission to Sam and me. She'll duck and roll for Ginger over the food issue and for Cassie if Cass thinks she's done something "wrong" Often I have no idea what that is.

Sam and Cassie show submission to no one. (none discernible to me anyway)Sam is the reigning queen and just doesn't want to be bothered while Cassie is the disciplinarian for the labs. Sam and Cassie just seem to walk around each other although I've seen Cassie go and stand over Sam when Sam's lying down some times???

I've never seen Cookie get discipline from any of the other dogs. I have a feeling that could be nasty as she has no quit. So far, knock on wood a Loud HEY! and a foot stamp has been enough to break up any potential problems before they've gone too far. Her and Cassie have got into it a couple times. Usually over a toy.

After all of that, none of it has any effect on any training I do with them as that all occurs with me taking one dog out at a time if I want to teach something new. Trying to train in the middle of a "pack" is an exercise in futility to me. When they are all together though, and I say sit that's 6 bums on the floor. Usually. So as far as pack theory goes does that mean I'm not the leader? I don't think so it just means(to me) that when they're all together there are too may distractions to learn, but once learned, that carries through into the pack structure.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

SK63 said:


> Can anyone reference a study or credible data which involves pack structure of Humans and Dogs? I would like to see a study of related Wolves in the wild too, has this been done and how does it relate to the now popularized pack theory training method ?


I was just exchanging PMs with one of the moderators here, Curbside Prophet...I don't know if CP has posted here yet, but he?she? is quite well-versed in the "pack theory" and why it tends not to hold. In any case, what I learned was that the study of wolves done to conclude the "rules" of pack theory (no dogs on beds, no dogs eating first, alpha rolling, etc) was carried out with wolves raised in captivity. Not in the wild. In other words, it doesn't really relate that much.

There was a study done by Dr. Ian Dunbar and Dr. Frank Beach in which they observed the behaviour of domesticated dogs in a group. The study took place over nineteen years. You can read their findings here:
http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm
It's interesting how little of the "pop culture pack theory" applies to what really happens.

CP also recommended me this book - I have yet to read it but it looks to be quite good - 'Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution' by Raymond Coppinger and Lorna Coppinger.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Still not as in depth as I would like to see. I've read that page before, seems to be reprinted in a lot of places. What I want is say, 100-200 households with four or more dogs that live inside/outside, that to me would give a more specific study of dog-human relations. Dunbar's little overview there has a slant towards proving the old wrong, rather than a completely unbiased study for new results. Not that I've got dominance issues, our house is quite calm. It would be a great read, and you always learn something from everyone.


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

In my opinion, Ceasar is a genius and I'm one of those annoying people who is always saying .... "as Ceasar says ...." Funny thing is though, I was watching SuperNanny the other night and I started laughing when I heard her talking about "rules, boundaries and limitations" - - which is exactly what Ceasar says ... exactly.

Pack theory though as Ceasar uses "power of the pack" is to show an unbalanced dog how to be balanced by being around calm submissive (balanced) dogs. It's not power of the pack to train your dog to sit/stay etc.

I do believe that we form packs with our dogs. Pack (to me) is like saying family, group, club etc - - those are all packs. I think that if we had no pack then the dogs would be running wild in the house with no regard for what anybody says. 

And like every pack, there has to be a pack leader. The "dominant" one .. and dominant doesn't mean hitting with a baseball bat, some out of control power hungry tyrant. Just like dogs being submissive doesn't mean they're wimpy pushovers. Dominant is just the boss. Same as your boss at work ... he's dominant and you're calm submissive (hopefully most of the time ) and that doesn't mean he beats you with a baseball bat every day.

I suppose most people shouldn't try Ceasar's techniques, and most people do HAVE it wrong anyways. Personally, I've tried all kinds of Ceasar things. I also have alot of experience with dogs (and a working brain )

Since I started being mini-Ceasar, I adopted my third shelter mutt and added him to the pack. Without using his ideas it would have been impossible. I mean, my 2 dogs are well behaved but I used to walk them on flexis and not think much of it - - I thought it looked mean to make a dog walk properly! Now I walk all 3 together and they out weigh me by close to 80lbs! In fact, I jog with the 3 of them sometimes - with the leashes tied around me. (with them still beside/behind me) Cars slow down and people look at me strange 

Somewhere is one of these Ceasar threads somebody was saying ... "oh look at sled dogs - they're out in front" - - The difference is that the handler is STILL in control of the dog. The dog isn't out of control at the end of his leash - he's focused on the task at hand - that the handler has instructed him to do. It's the same with search and rescue dogs and also service dogs. They may be in front but the handler is still in control. That's the difference from a regular joe with his dog at the end of the leash pulling his arms out of the sockets.

I used to think that Ceasar was a little to tough on the dogs but that was going from what I'd read about him. I decided to watch his show sometime ago to see for myself and I was really surprised. The stuff he does works - again, not that most people have enough smarts to try it.

I think a big problem lies in that fact that humans think that human psychology will work with dogs. And it won't. I was at my aunt and uncle's before Christmas and my uncle was saying something about a lady they know that rescued a dachshund and it was biting people. She finally had it put to sleep. He says ... "when it would bite, she put him in the corner for a time out" -- I couldn't help myself jumping in! A time out?? He's a dog!! That's human psychology not dog psychology. That poor dog had NO idea why he was in the corner and it sure as heck didn't help him any! He's saying ... "no, the dog knew" ... uhhh sorry dude, he didn't.

Anyways .. opps ... I think it turned into a novel =)


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

The sled dog thing is tough. I'm almost there though. They know how to heel now, whether it's collar or harness. Now the project is learning a pull command with turns and stops. It's funny to see breed differences, the Saint absolutely will not pull, always at heel. But when the sled dogs hear "YAH!" with a slack leash... BAM! Hold on.
I think knowing everyting you can possibly know about your breed helps immensely in training and general behavior. Some things are just that ingrained in the genes. Like how the sleds line up and one by one push between the legs to have the harness put on. They've been doing it for centuries. Every sled dog I've ever met does that, as well as some other workers. Knowing that helps when unfamiliar people come around. No need for alpha rolls there.
Plus, I can't place an episode where Cesar works on a sled dog. I would like to see how he approaches their disposition.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

jerzeygirl said:


> And like every pack, there has to be a pack leader. The "dominant" one .. and dominant doesn't mean hitting with a baseball bat, some out of control power hungry tyrant. Just like dogs being submissive doesn't mean they're wimpy pushovers. Dominant is just the boss. Same as your boss at work ... he's dominant and you're calm submissive (hopefully most of the time) and that doesn't mean he beats you with a baseball bat every day.


 Actually, I’ve never met a boss who was “dominant”. Nor have I ever had a boss who didn’t allow me to say my peace. This isn’t a very good comparison IMO. What does “dominant” mean? In dominance/pack theory, “dominant” means to impose your will. The question is whether it’s necessary to impose your will to effect change in your dog, and I would strongly suggest the answer is NO. In fact, I would argue it’s necessary to give our dogs options, in order to live a happy and healthy life among us. Now before anyone misconstrues what I’m saying here, my boss gives me this option: work for pay, or don’t work for no pay. I have the choice, and I’m motivated by my paycheck. If my boss were “dominant”, however, I would have to work with or without pay. You have to remember what “dominant” means in the dog world…it was meant to describe the ‘winner’ of a contest. That’s all! How it came to mean - impose one’s will – in recent years, is scary and actually has roots back to Hitler and how his military dogs were trained. Let’s not take my words out of context…I’m in no way comparing Cesar to Hitler, but I am trying to point out that many of the rules in dominance/pack theory were motivated by Hitler’s ideology. 



> Somewhere is one of these Ceasar threads somebody was saying ... "oh look at sled dogs - they're out in front" - - The difference is that the handler is STILL in control of the dog. The dog isn't out of control at the end of his leash - he's focused on the task at hand - that the handler has instructed him to do.


 Really? The musher instructs a sled dog’s compliance? Let’s not fool ourselves, or give the musher THAT much credit. The dog is compliant because he enjoys the “task at hand”. The handler is in control of the MOTIVATION, not the dog. This is often lost in dominance/pack theory. Dominance/pack theory only looks at one motivation…status. As long as we’re ‘on top’, our dogs are ‘balanced’ and will follow, right? It sounds nice, it may even empower us to be better communicators with our dogs, but does this validate the theory? Are dogs motivated by status? Even Cesar himself has admitted there are very few ‘Alpha’ dogs, so why is it even a question? Much of what we observe in dogs is so filled with human emotion that we are blinded of the obvious. We admit to the majority of dog owners being idiots, so why wouldn’t they grasp on to a show that feeds their human emotion? I don’t have a problem with this, but excuse me if I state the obvious. 



> I decided to watch his show sometime ago to see for myself and I was really surprised. The stuff he does works - again, not that most people have enough smarts to try it.


 Yes, but, do you watch the dogs? How do you know it worked for them, or beyond what you observed in one episode? If it’s your own dog, how do you prove one technique is working over another? 



> I think a big problem lies in that fact that humans think that human psychology will work with dogs. And it won't.


 What proof do you have of this? My grandmother doesn’t know anything about dogs other than they make for wonderful companions. She’s never been educated in human psychology or dog psychology, for that matter. But she has raised three beautiful children, and she treats her dog no differently. This dog, of all the dog’s I’ve ever met (including my own) is the most “balanced” dog on the planet. My story is anecdotal, but there is no proof that human psychology does not work on dogs. Human emotion, however, can clearly be troubling to some dogs, that's for sure. 



> A time out?? He's a dog!! That's human psychology not dog psychology. That poor dog had NO idea why he was in the corner and it sure as heck didn't help him any!


 Of course the dog didn’t know, the punishment wasn’t instructive, nor punishing. So what’s to be learned from jabbing the dog in the neck with your fingers? You’re the “dominant” one, right? Prove it. This is the problem with Cesar’s show…much is left to belief. But, if the Dachshund was biting out of fear, wouldn’t it be better to understand what the dog fears, and condition the dog to the fear, instead of reaching for punishments based on belief? I do, but guess what? You won’t see that show on TV…it’s not nearly as entertaining.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Actually, I’ve never met a boss who was “dominant”. Nor have I ever had a boss who didn’t allow me to say my peace.


Wow. That is the *COMPLETE* opposite of my working experience. Just a question... What field is it that you worked in? I sold cars for the first working decade of my life, and let me tell you "pack theory" definitely applies there. From the owner down to the first time customer, ranks and structure reign king. quite the learning experience, and like everyone else, I wouldn't trade it for all the tea in China, maybe for all the wine in France though...

Curbside, your grandmother would make a perfect study for the relations we are talking about.


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

I don't see dominance as meaning to "impose your will" exactly, not in a negative way at least. Not in the way the word has come to mean to most people. Dominant (to me ) is just the leader. The one in charge. There is nothing negative about the word. And all packs need a leader or there would be chaos!

I get up in the morning and I walk my dogs for an hour. They are working for their food. Not that I wouldn't give it based on anything that happened on the walk but they walk before they eat. They follow me and I lead them around and back to the house for the food. It isn't really an option for them; however I suppose if they didn't want to come they wouldn't come to the door and wait while I get ready to go out.

Sure, the sled dog's enjoy it but let's not kid ourselves and say the musher has nothing to do it! I don't know much about sled dogs but I've never seen them out of control doing whatever they want (sniffing / peeing etc) while they're working! (sledding)

Being dominant over your dog will NOT make him balanced without other things in play. Exercise being a main one. Most dogs need alot of exercise and that right there can help alot of dogs with their "problems". Problems that are really no more then too much energy inside and boredom.

Personally, I've tried all these methods. I've had dogs all my life and I'm currently taking a dog training course. The training course being obedience not dog psychology. 

I have 3 dogs of my own. 2 males and 1 female (all neutered/spayed) My newest male is the most dominant of my 3, and I can tell you based on my experience that when I really started enforcing me being the pack leader - going in and out doors first etc it made a huge impact on Raven. When he first came home he was starting fights with the other male (nothing really serious but I don't put up with any fighting) - to the point where I was wondering .. did I make a mistake bringing him home -- when I started those simple things that seem so silly and insignificant it made a huge difference. In fact, we haven't had any squabbles in weeks.

I just dog sat my aunt and uncle's dog for a month. They adopted him in Septmber from the Humane Society. He's a 3 year old shih tzu. He seemed sweet at the shelter but turned into a biting monster once living with them. They have NO leadership over him. He eats when he wants, they walk him on a flexi, he sleeps on the bed/couch and they excuse all his behaviour. In the past month I alpha rolled him a bunch of times (and got bit in the process once) but I went right through it because I needed him to realize that I'm going to "win" and not back down or back away from him because he would become more powerful.

I only use the alpha roll as the maximum consequence for being aggressive. I would never use it for something else because then it becomes way over used.

Anyways, after 1 month he's a different dog. I can bath him, pick burs out of his fur, clean his eyes etc. So (not that anybody has to believe me) I know those things work. Again, I don't suggest most people try alpha rolling a dog. The problem I'm afraid of is that now that he's back with them he's going to go back to the same biting freak and they'll wind up giving him back to the shelter. Personally though, I've never seen a dog that tests as much as he did. I sort of laughed all month because he's only 15 lbs and all I could think was if mine were like that at 38, 75, 80 pounds there'd be bodies in the streets! I don't typically understand little dogs!!

That's just a personal story and I can tell you that putting him in the corner didn't work because they tried that for 3 months and were unable to "fix" the problem.

Human psychology vs dog psychology- I mean, just think about it. Human psychology is taking a time out and that obviosuly doesn't mean anything to a dog! 

Your grandma sounds smarter then most owners because both dogs and kids need rules, boundaries and limitations. But as you might "ground" a child ... you don't "ground" a dog so the correction would be different.

The poke in the neck is simply to mimic what the mother would do when she was disciplining the pups. I feel it just connects with what the dog instinctively knows.

Anyways =) Just my opinion =)


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

In all honesty, I don't think it would make sense to try and say that a certain training method works for all dogs. If there were a method that was undoubtedly proven, there wouldn't be such a debate about what is "right" and what is "wrong". There are a lot of methods out there that I like to take bits and pieces out of that work for me. Each dog is different and unique, just as every living creature is different and unique, so some methods may work for one dog and not for another. I've met dogs who are naturally happy-go-lucky and are easy to train. There's no need to assert yourself with them as they happily understand their place in the pack. There are other dogs (like my Jiffy) that you have to constantly be a strong leader with, otherwise they jump right up and try to be the leader.

"Dominant" is definitely a strong word that I don't feel fits with describing what an owner should be. An owner should be "assertive", but not "dominant". I believe that word best describes what a dog can be, as I've seen pretty dominant dogs, who will push and bully their way to try to be above others, but those dogs aren't necessarily leaders. Dogs will find their pecking order amongst themselves, but what is most important is that the humans in the pack are the leaders above the dogs, so that there are no problems in the long run. The leader of a pack does not "dominate" as they just give direction and put those who are unruly back in their place. To say that dogs live like wild wolves is a far stretch, but they certainly still follow a set of rules imprinted in their genes. When people try to set rules and limitations by not allowing a dog up on furniture unless asked or making them do something for something that they want, it's simply a way of claiming a higher position, since wolves do the same. The alpha of a pack always calls the shots of where they are going next, to when they eat to what areas are off limits.

Not trying to get the subject back onto to Cesar, but Cesar always talks about the fact that using brute force and bullying a dog is not the way to get them to listen. His methods are based around giving off an energy that demands respect, not physically earning it (like beating a dog with a bat as one of you put it). His books even talk about the fact that the calmest and most assertive dog or wolf will be the one most likely to become the leader of the pack, not the unstable and unruly one, which is why it is so essential to remain calm when training or correcting. Using his methods while being upset and angry is doing the complete opposite for the dog than if you were to do it calmly. 

In some of his episodes, the dogs put up a fight. Of course they will, since they've been in a certain mindset for years and their only way of dealing with such a sudden change is to protest. Jiffy used to SCREAM when I'd correct him for something because he went over a year of his life getting away with everything. People thought I was ABUSING him even though I KNEW that I definitely was not being harsh with him in any way. He eventually cut out the waterworks and is happily a stable member of my family. Any crestie owner can tell you that they are total DRAMA QUEENS! Haha.

Like I said, I don't think there's any sense in arguing the "right" and "wrong" of the training methods, since we all seem to agree on what is obviously wrong and each have a sense of what works for us. We've also established that the pack mentality training can certainly be done incorrectly and cause more harm than good, but that's not to say that that method is moot.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Devi, that was an excellently worded response. Something else Cesar said in one show stuck with me more than the "alpha roll". 
"Every dog is going to teach me something, and it's my job to make sure I'm listening."
Dominance, alpha, leader, it doesn't matter what you call it. It's more a frame of mind than an action.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I really appreciate your perspective and patience.



jerzegirl said:


> Dominant (to me ) is just the leader. The one in charge. There is nothing negative about the word. And all packs need a leader or there would be chaos!


When you say the leader is in charge, what is she in charge of? I'm not certain of your chaos theory. I believe chaos is created when individuals don't take responsibility for their actions. I agree we do need to lead our dogs down the right path, but we're also the one's responsible for what 'right' means to our dogs. Sometimes what dogs do is only wrong when they live with humans. IMO, it's more important to understand this fact than it is to understand pack theory. 



> They are working for their food.


Are you sure about that? This is a comment that I see often from prong users. They'll say something to the effect of, _my dog gets excited when I bring the prong collar out, he just loves it. _Oh really!? No, the dog doesn't love the prong collar at all. What he loves is the walk, and the prong collar predicts the walk. So back to my question. Are you sure they are working for food? Or are they really doing something they enjoy?



> Sure, the sled dog's enjoy it but let's not kid ourselves and say the musher has nothing to do it! I don't know much about sled dogs but I've never seen them out of control doing whatever they want (sniffing / peeing etc) while they're working! (sledding)


Have you ever seen a Bloodhound pull a sled? If you haven't, I'll show you a frustrated musher who uses Bloodhounds to sled. The question you should ask, is sledding more motivating to a sled dog than stopping to sniff a tree? If you ask any sled dog breeder, they'll say they only breed dogs who love only sledding. Nature is a function, just as nurture is. 



> The training course being obedience not dog psychology.


Take mental notes during your class. If your trainer tells you not to repeat cues, or to reward your dog heavily for a fast sit, or to leash jerk your dog for wandering off course...you are using methods developed from psychology. Unless your dog's brain turns off during an obedience performance, psychology is always at play, and since it involves your dog, it is dog psychology.

What Cesar says to justify his actions, again, is based on a belief. It is based on his interpretations of dog/wolf behavior. Is he wrong? Is he right? Personally, I could care less...just don't lie to me. So, when he says, _see he's stopped fighting, he's now being submissive, _and what I see is a dog shutting down to his punishment, that makes me unhappy. Call me overly sensitive, just don't call me a fool for not believing. 



> I have 3 dogs of my own. 2 males and 1 female (all neutered/spayed) My newest male is the most dominant of my 3, and I can tell you based on my experience that when I really started enforcing me being the pack leader - going in and out doors first etc it made a huge impact on Raven. When he first came home he was starting fights with the other male (nothing really serious but I don't put up with any fighting) - to the point where I was wondering .. did I make a mistake bringing him home -- when I started those simple things that seem so silly and insignificant it made a huge difference. In fact, we haven't had any squabbles in weeks.


It's a misconception that "dominant" dogs cause fights, or act aggressively. A dominant (descriptor of the dog that wins a contest) dog can walk up to another dog chewing a bone, and without even a bat of an eye, the other dog will leave the bone. Aggression does not equal aggression. What you have is an assertive dog, and you helped him understand your rules by trading walks (the motivation) for waiting at the door politely. This is the basis of NILIF. 



> In the past month I alpha rolled him a bunch of times (and got bit in the process once) but I went right through it because I needed him to realize that I'm going to "win" and not back down or back away from him because he would become more powerful.


So, what did you teach him with this punishment? How do you know it resulted from the punishment?



> Human psychology vs dog psychology- I mean, just think about it. Human psychology is taking a time out and that obviosuly doesn't mean anything to a dog!


I defy you to find any child who could justify that as a reasonable punishment. But let's not forget, we are animals too. 



> Your grandma sounds smarter then most owners because both dogs and kids need rules, boundaries and limitations.


I'm sure my grandmother would just kiss you for calling her smarter, but to be honest, she has what all good dog trainers need...a simple understanding of what guidance is. No rules, no boundaries, no limitations...just an understanding of what makes children...and dogs, wonderful creatures who are capable of making the 'right' choice on their own. 



> The poke in the neck is simply to mimic what the mother would do when she was disciplining the pups. I feel it just connects with what the dog instinctively knows.


Yes, and the mama dog also eats the pups poo.  No thanks, I have no need to mimic mama dog...I enjoy my SO's kisses!



Devi said:


> they certainly still follow a set of rules imprinted in their genes.


 They do, as do humans. Our bodies are merely vessels for the survival of our genes. So, what do you say is the mission of dog genes? What strategies do dogs use to ensure their success? How do these strategies influence pack behavior? All interesting questions, pointing towards a bigger picture, to which dominance/pack theory has little significance. 



> When people try to set rules and limitations by not allowing a dog up on furniture unless asked or making them do something for something that they want, it's simply a way of claiming a higher position, since wolves do the same.


 I haven’t come across many sofas out in the wild, nor have I come across a wolf napping on a recliner.  The basis of NILIF has nothing to do with status…but it has everything to do with resources. What are resources? - anything that motivates a dog to offer a behavior. Most people appreciate the behavior of sitting politely before napping on the couch…I know I do. But I have no evidence that my dog sits politely for the couch because she sees herself lower on the totem pole. I do have evidence, however, that if she sits, it predicts lying on the couch. Lying on the couch is the motivation for sitting politely…not status IMO. Perhaps, my dog is such an excellent leader, that her sit is a cue for me to give up a spot on the couch.  Drats! A dog’s intention really is to rule the world.



> His books even talk about the fact that the calmest and most assertive dog or wolf will be the one most likely to become the leader of the pack, not the unstable and unruly one, which is why it is so essential to remain calm when training or correcting. Using his methods while being upset and angry is doing the complete opposite for the dog than if you were to do it calmly.


 While I agree that ‘calm, assertive energy’ influences our dogs tremendously, we really don’t have any evidence that it raises our status in the dog’s mind. What I do see, however, are clear choices and uniformity in our behavior when we are ‘calm and assertive’. IMO, the dog can read our body language clearly when we are ‘calm and assertive’ than when we’re not. Would you agree? Would you also agree that a dog is more likely to follow clear communication, than not? Perhaps, we should spend more time improving our mechanical skill around dogs than worrying about where we are in an imagined pecking order. 



> Jiffy used to SCREAM when I'd correct him for something because he went over a year of his life getting away with everything. People thought I was ABUSING him even though I KNEW that I definitely was not being harsh with him in any way. He eventually cut out the waterworks and is happily a stable member of my family.


 While I’m glad you resolved Jiffy’s(was that his adopted name?, love it) issues, dogs can also learn to act helplessly. When little screams don’t work, they try BIGGER screams. This is the nature of dogs…they do what works. That’s not to say, however, that your dog liked your corrections or it is what made him ‘balanced’. I would assume you ARE a good person by nature, and that Jiffy learned this about you when he wasn’t being corrected. Again, there’s nothing wrong with showing dogs our good nature, and do so in ways that are mutually beneficial. 



> Like I said, I don't think there's any sense in arguing the "right" and "wrong" of the training methods, since we all seem to agree on what is obviously wrong and each have a sense of what works for us. We've also established that the pack mentality training can certainly be done incorrectly and cause more harm then good, but that's not to say that that method is moot.


 Awe heck, had I read all the way down to the bottom I would have kept my big mouth shut. Excellent point!


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

What I mean by my chaos theory is every pack needs direction and needs an enforcer of the rules. George Bush is a pack leader, a boss is a pack leader, a husband or a wife is a pack leader.

I agree we are the ones responisble for what our dogs see as right.

Are they working for their food? Not exactly, they're having a walk that they do enjoy but they are migrating as wolves migrate in the wild to find food. Do they see it as such? I have no idea =) In my theory they might 

I've heard the same thing about prong collars and again I agree. The beauty of walking the dog Ceasar's way, with the collar up high (at first) is you have maximum control with no force. I don't think it hurts them either because (again I only have my personal experience) I tried it and gave a few corrections and there was no yelping or crying and now I walk them on normal flat collars.

Let's go to service dogs then - I don't know anything about sledding dogs. Maybe they do just love to run and pull so much that that's all they do. But I also realize they can't suddenly go off course or the handler would be in trouble! Service dogs are the same - leading and yet following what they're supposed to do.

What I meant by my training course is that it's teaching obedience whereas what Ceasar does is not obedience training but more mental training. I do realize everything has to do with psychology.

We are animals too but we come from the primate line  We humans hug as an interaction and a symbol of love or friendship, to a dog a hug is a "dominant" position because they don't hug. They sniff butts  and I'm not going to try that!

I suppose I can't prove that my aunt's dog changed due to the alpha roll but I did see it with my own eyes. Not that it was instant and that he still doesn't test but the strength of his fight againt rules (not biting / or growling)
is nowhere near as severe as it was when I first took him into my house. I've also never dealt with a dog like that before and it was a first for me.

I do believe that I taught him that biting is not acceptable and that I won't let him scare me away by showing teeth. I taught him to respect me. Did it hurt him? No, but he screamed like a banshee the first couple of times.

I'm also very sensitive and I can't stand to see dogs being mistreated. The thing with Whiskey was if he didn't change they were going to give him back. So, to me ... getting alpha rolled a few times is a much better option then losing your home and maybe your life. I agree a sensitive dog doesn't need that. With my lab a dirty glance will send her into a submission position.

I agree again that dominance isn't the best way to describe a dog who is assertive. Dominance doesn't equal aggression (necessarily). What I meant was Raven is the one who would like to run the show if he could or if he feels he needs to. Jersey on the other hand is just a submissive dog and she has no interest in being the boss of anybody.

I suppose the problem is that most people don't have enough common sense to understand children or dogs, however, I can't imagine that your grandmother had no rules, boundaries or limitations on children - - how would they learn? how would they know not to play with fire? to touch the stove? to draw on the walls? to run in the house? to put things in their mouths they shouldn't? to fight with other kids? to share? These are all learned so there must have been rules, boundaries and limitations =)

My "rules" are common sense for the dogs .. don't chew my shoes, or my purse, or any stuffed toys that aren't your, don't jump up on the counter or on people when they come over but they needed the rules and the direction in the beginning and now they just know =)


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> They do, as do humans. Our bodies are merely vessels for the survival of our genes. So, what do you say is the mission of dog genes? What strategies do dogs use to ensure their success? How do these strategies influence pack behavior? All interesting questions, pointing towards a bigger picture, to which dominance/pack theory has little significance.


Pack theory, I believe, is just a comparison to try and delve deeper into the understanding of your common dog. I don't think that is a total explanation as to why our dogs behave the way they do. If we understood what our dogs were thinking, none of us would be looking for answers to help us work with them. There will always be a something that defies a theory, which is why they are just that...theories...not fact. 



> I haven’t come across many sofas out in the wild, nor have I come across a wolf napping on a recliner.  The basis of NILIF has nothing to do with status…but it has everything to do with resources. What are resources? - anything that motivates a dog to offer a behavior. Most people appreciate the behavior of sitting politely before napping on the couch…I know I do. But I have no evidence that my dog sits politely for the couch because she sees herself lower on the totem pole. I do have evidence, however, that if she sits, it predicts lying on the couch. Lying on the couch is the motivation for sitting politely…not status IMO. Perhaps, my dog is such an excellent leader, that her sit is a cue for me to give up a spot on the couch.  Drats! A dog’s intention really is to rule the world.


The idea of a sofa or a bed being a place of power is not because of what it is, but the fact that it is an elevated position that symbolizes having an advantage and for a dog to simply climb up without permission is thought to be a sign of "dominance". To try and disprove an argument simply over the fact that furniture is not a thing found in nature is not realistic. The point of it is is that a couch or bed or what have you is a spot that a leader can claim, as a wolf would claim a den or rock or whatever as their own. Again, theories behind this are not proven and it is something that can sometimes play a major role in teaching a dog manners or it could not matter at all.




> While I agree that ‘calm, assertive energy’ influences our dogs tremendously, we really don’t have any evidence that it raises our status in the dog’s mind. What I do see, however, are clear choices and uniformity in our behavior when we are ‘calm and assertive’. IMO, the dog can read our body language clearly when we are ‘calm and assertive’ than when we’re not. Would you agree? Would you also agree that a dog is more likely to follow clear communication, than not? Perhaps, we should spend more time improving our mechanical skill around dogs than worrying about where we are in an imagined pecking order.


I most definitely agree that the way behave is a HUGE influence in how our dogs will perceive us. The way that pecking order comes into play is that a leader is more easily followed when they are "stable" and not the opposite. It's not so much having worry where you fall in a pecking order, but to just go about your business as if you are the leader, no questions asked. I find that worrying whether you're the "alpha" above your dog only clouds the mind from actually achieving that goal. There are so many terms to describe what we want to be seen as in a dog's eyes, be it the leader or alpha, etc., but what it all comes down to is earning their respect. We want them to do as they're told, but we don't want them to fear us. Pack leaders amongst dogs and wolves are not leaders because the dogs are scared of them, they are because they are respected and the lower ranking dogs look to them for guidance. If they were threatening, you'd think there would be some kind of doggy mutiny for the sake of the pack's well-being. Haha. 



> While I’m glad you resolved Jiffy’s(was that his adopted name?, love it) issues, dogs can also learn to act helplessly. When little screams don’t work, they try BIGGER screams. This is the nature of dogs…they do what works. That’s not to say, however, that your dog liked your corrections or it is what made him ‘balanced’. I would assume you ARE a good person by nature, and that Jiffy learned this about you when he wasn’t being corrected. Again, there’s nothing wrong with showing dogs our good nature, and do so in ways that are mutually beneficial.


This is something that would be hard to explain without seeing me with Jiffy (and it's a name his breeder gave him and I didn't bother changing it since it fit him so well). Me correcting him would be as a mother would correct a pup. A soft bite is replaced by a quick tug of the leash, but certainly not in a rough manner (I've tested it on a sensitive part of my arm). It's a way to snap him out of a certain state of mind and get him to focus on me, the leader. Over time, less corrections are needed and eventually a sound (like a "no" or "shh") is all that it takes. He settled down not only because of me correcting him, but because I trained MYSELF how to react to situations that he normally reacts to, which is to really not react at all. When I didn't respond to his protests, he realized it was no use. When he is behaving as he should, he gets my affection, which is what most dogs are striving to receive in the first place. They just need to be taught that behaving a certain way gets them this. Just, with some dogs, they need a bit more direction than others, in my case, Jiffy. I certainly don't agree with constantly correcting a dog and then not letting them understand what I want. If you were to get yelled at by your boss and then they didn't help you to understand what you did wrong and they were constantly reprimanding you on a day to day basis without a kind word or "thank you for all the work you've done", would you wanna work for that boss?




> Awe heck, had I read all the way down to the bottom I would have kept my big mouth shut. Excellent point!


Haha. Thanks! I never like to argue about things that will just go in circles, but I don't mind discussing what I have experience with and hearing what others have experience with. It'll be a tiring circle to continue trying to disprove all the theories on dog psychology, but we can all certainly learn from each other. Besides, arguing takes away from the time spent with our beloved pets.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

jerzegirl said:


> George Bush is a pack leader


 Oh boy, I can here the Democrats clamoring now to disagree with you, lol. 



> Let's go to service dogs then - Service dogs are the same - leading and yet following what they're supposed to do.


 I would say yes, heeling at the side of a wheelchair is probably as unnatural for dogs as behavior gets. Why does the dog comply? I can look at it from three different perspectives, and none of them have to do with who is or who is not the leader. 1) The dog is a natural at working for the human. The act of heeling, retrieving, perhaps pulling is naturally enjoyable to the dog, just like it is for the sled dog. 2) The dog has been forced to comply. The dog has been threatened with punishment to comply or else. I think we’d all agree this is no way to train dogs, but, often that’s exactly what people do. 3) The dog comes to learn that these behaviors predict rewards that are highly motivating to the dog. Heel at my side for the next two hours, and you’ll get a belly rub and piece of roast beef. 



> What I meant by my training course is that it's teaching obedience whereas what Ceasar does is not obedience training but more mental training. I do realize everything has to do with psychology.


 And I would challenge you not to look at obedience training any differently than as a mental training. At some point during obedience training you will cross a road where you’ll have to choose a punishment. Choose the wrong punishment and your dog may learn to dislike your training, or worse, you. Cesar or pack theory can’t help you with that choice. But at any point in training, you believe a punishment is not mentally taxing, I beg of you to rethink your ideology. My bet is you will. 



> We humans hug as an interaction and a symbol of love or friendship, to a dog a hug is a "dominant" position because they don't hug. They sniff butts and I'm not going to try that!


 A friend of a friend’s uncle told me they had pictures of you sniffing butts. Are you sure that wasn’t you, lol. It’s true, dogs don’t hug, but I wonder what they would do if they had arms like ours? Just because they are incapable of hugging, does not mean they are incapable of showing affection in other ways. I’ve seen doggie pile pretzels, and dogs sharing body contact in ways that look like hugs to me. Was it affection? I dunno, but if being anthropomorphic benefits the dog, I’m fine with calling it hugging. But, as Devi suggested, we should let the dog tell us what he thinks of hugging before tossing it out. 



> I suppose I can't prove that my aunt's dog changed due to the alpha roll but I did see it with my own eyes. Not that it was instant and that he still doesn't test but the strength of his fight againt rules (not biting / or growling)
> is nowhere near as severe as it was when I first took him into my house. I've also never dealt with a dog like that before and it was a first for me.


 This is where the danger in not following Cesar’s caveat can be detrimental to both owner and dog. I’m glad your dog didn’t escalate his behavior with your punishment. Because if he did, what options are left? Understanding why a dog bites and growls can be as simple as teaching the dog why it’s okay, perhaps even rewarding, to be touched. Or, it can be as complicated as justifying one man’s perspective in the absence of all others. Again, I’m glad the behavior improved, but let’s not fools ourselves that the dog understood what you were doing. You may only be teaching him that he can get away with the behavior when you’re not present. That’s learning of a different kind, but still not good. 



> I suppose the problem is that most people don't have enough common sense to understand children or dogs, however, I can't imagine that your grandmother had no rules, boundaries or limitations on children - - how would they learn?


 Perhaps I didn’t say that very well. We learned by the consequences of our choices. My grandmother is a master of making us believe our choices dictate our happiness. I still believe this is true. In retrospect, however, I understand how masterful she is in the art of persuasion. Did she force her rules on us?, no way, I’m convinced if she were Eve we’d all be in Paradise. Did she set limits for our choices?, perhaps when safety was a concern, but it was never obvious. Did she place boundaries on our choices?, no…failing is beneficial to no one, unless there is something psychologically wrong with the being – neither dogs or humans spend much time around failure. The rules/boundaries/limitations Cesar speaks of are nothing more than ways we convince our dogs to do the things they are capable of doing. Some people define the rules for the dog. I think this is a good thing, and if the dog willingly complies, what’s to argue? It’s when the dog doesn’t comply; I feel we should be more open to how our behavior affects the dog’s behavior. Too often we justify our actions on beliefs alone, remain never changing, and if we only examined them a little further, perhaps we would clearly see how our beliefs caused the problem to begin with.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

As far as sled dogs go.. it was second nature to Ollie. I don't have to convince him to pull, he just does. I say "Hike!" and hold on to the bike best as I can. I do not need to treat him in order to follow my guidance, because following what I say allows him to run even more. When he doesn't do what I say, we end up having to stop,and adjust whatever needs to be adjusted (get back on course, etc).

He completely loves pulling and running. So when I "control" Ollie, I'm only really guiding him with his own motivation as the basis.


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> But, as Devi suggested, we should let the dog tell us what he thinks of hugging before tossing it out.


I said that? *rereads posts* Are you referring to someone else or an idea of something I posted? Haha. I'll assume it's referring to the fact of being open to how different dogs react to certain situations. I've heard that it is a dominant behavior amongst other dogs to place their paws on another's back and/or in a moreso inappropriate manner, that you all know what I'm referring to, and I've come across dogs that see anything of the like, such as hugging, as a challenge and others that simply just revel in the glory of receiving affection.


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on certain points =)

I do agree that different dogs have different personalities and respond better to different training methods.

And I am afraid that Whiskey dog will go back to his biting self again. (He actually just went back home today) because his owners are not strong leaders. They want that super submissive, happy go lucky dog and I don't think they're going to bother putting in the effort to keep the change that he's made. I'm going to be super sad if they wind up giving him back especially because I've seen he can be a good little dog.

Like I said, he's the first aggressive dog I've ever tried anything with .. so can I say I'm 100% successful??  If I get to try again with any other dog then I guess I'll have more (or less) to back my beliefs up with. =) But for now, I need some easy time with my dogs! I'm sure they're thinking .... jeez .. who's she gonna bring home now???


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Devi said:


> I said that? *rereads posts* Are you referring to someone else or an idea of something I posted? Haha. I'll assume it's referring to the fact of being open to how different dogs react to certain situations.





> Each dog is different and unique, just as every living creature is different and unique, so some methods may work for one dog and not for another.


I took your above statement as a suggestion that we should individualize our training to the uniqueness of our dogs. You're brilliant and don't even know it?  Perhaps that's not what you meant, but if I find a dog who's butt-is-a-wiggl'n to a hug, I'm using that reward to teach that dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Rbark
*Seriously, though, I just show him respect for what he is - a dog. I want some respect back in certain things that bother me, but that's about it. Most of the dominance stuff I roll my eyes at, I see some people watching Ollie roll on his back to me, and say "Heh that's a dog that knows his place". I am like "um... maybe he just wants a belly rub...?" and rub his belly, happy dog.*

I like that reply, when customers drop dogs off every once in a while one will say their dog is snappy or words to that effect. I normally answer by saying not to worry, there is only one pack leader here(it's the easiest way to explain). 1st off when the owner leaves, the dog is in my territory. I'm sure I walk and talk a certain way when in the kennel area. I do not have to beat my way into a snappy/biting dog's kennel or out of it. when working around the dog, cleaning kennels, watering, feeding etc you respect the dog's area. You walk and move confidently and 99% of the time there are no problems. The funny part is that a large percentage of these dogs are scared and insecure, last thing they need is an overdose of dominance. Actually since I'm not asking anything from these dogs there is no pressure on them to react badly. I have no problems with Cesar's methods. There are always going to be the mentally challenged that watch something and carry it to the extreme. If its a book or a TV show or a forum the individual watching etc has to make their own decisions.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

jerzegirl said:


> I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on certain points... If I get to try again with any other dog then I guess I'll have more (or less) to back my beliefs up with.


Perhaps. When dealing with aggression, and use of punishment, you have to count the number of bad behaviors, and the number of punishments. If the neither of those numbers reduce from one week to the next, either you're doing a horrible job at teaching alternate behaviors, or your punishment is in fact not punishing. Only by knowing the numbers can you say your technique, whatever it may be, or whatever reasoning you're using, is effective. There's nothing to agree or disagree on, the truth is in the numbers. But, if you don't count your behaviors and the dog's, you risk someone like me calling you a loon.  I have yet to meet one person, outside of the dog trainers I know, who count punishments and behaviors.


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I took your above statement as a suggestion that we should individualize our training to the uniqueness of our dogs. You're brilliant and don't even know it?  Perhaps that's not what you meant, but if I find a dog who's butt-is-a-wiggl'n to a hug, I'm using that reward to teach that dog.


Haha. I figured that's what you meant, but I wasn't sure. First thing that came to mind was, "I wrote a post about hugging??" But, yes that's exactly what I meant by what I wrote.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

This won't be popular but I'll go ahead and say it as I'm starting to find the whole Cesar thing interesting. Firstly, it seems most of those who are very supportive of the "Cesar Way" are women. I wondered why this would be ? So I started thinking of how women (who I know) relate to dogs and it seems to be more in line with Cesar. No kissy kissy stuff, not a whole lot of physical affection, etc. Most men figured out at a very early age, women want to be the boss, the pack leader, with a lot of men this is hard for women to attain so I think women see dogs as an animal in which they CAN control, they CAN be the pack leader and why women are so emotionally attached to the teachings of the Dog Whisper and so defensive of this man. That's not to say women are not emotionally attached to dogs as I know that is not true but they are also more in to the controlling aspect of Human-Dog relationship. . Certainly without a SINGLE DOUBT, the male dog trainers I know who cling to this pack leader deal are the stereotypical Type -A- testosterone Jock trainers (Protection and hunting dog ). Just a theory but I think it's right


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

SK63 said:


> This won't be popular but I'll go ahead and say it as I'm starting to find the whole Cesar thing interesting. Firstly, it seems most of those who are very supportive of the "Cesar Way" are women. I wondered why this would be ? So I started thinking of how women (who I know) relate to dogs and it seems to be more in line with Cesar. No kissy kissy stuff, not a whole lot of physical affection, etc. Most men figured out at a very early age, women want to be the boss, the pack leader, with a lot of men this is hard for women to attain so I think women see dogs as an animal in which they CAN control, they CAN be the pack leader and why women are so emotionally attached to the teachings of the Dog Whisper and so defensive of this man. That's not to say women are not emotionally attached to dogs as I know that is not true but they are also more in to the controlling aspect of Human-Dog relationship. . Certainly without a SINGLE DOUBT, the male dog trainers I know who cling to this pack leader deal are the stereotypical Type -A- testosterone Jock trainers (Protection and hunting dog ). Just a theory but I think it's right


Let me get this right...women like Cesar's methods because we're controlling and like the idea of controlling a dog because some women can't be controlling when with certain men? Correct me if I'm missing something. All the trainers I've met come off at the strong personality types, not because they're "testosterone Jock trainers" as you put it, but because they strongly believe in what they preach and stand behind it. We've also already come to an understanding that being a confident person makes for a good trainer/leader/whatever.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

SK63 said:


> This won't be popular but I'll go ahead and say it as I'm starting to find the whole Cesar thing interesting. Firstly, it seems most of those who are very supportive of the "Cesar Way" are women. I wondered why this would be ? So I started thinking of how women (who I know) relate to dogs and it seems to be more in line with Cesar. No kissy kissy stuff, not a whole lot of physical affection, etc. Most men figured out at a very early age, women want to be the boss, the pack leader, with a lot of men this is hard for women to attain so I think women see dogs as an animal in which they CAN control, they CAN be the pack leader and why women are so emotionally attached to the teachings of the Dog Whisper and so defensive of this man. That's not to say women are not emotionally attached to dogs as I know that is not true but they are also more in to the controlling aspect of Human-Dog relationship. . Certainly without a SINGLE DOUBT, the male dog trainers I know who cling to this pack leader deal are the stereotypical Type -A- testosterone Jock trainers (Protection and hunting dog ). Just a theory but I think it's right


Does this mean you're a girly man???


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

SK63 said:


> Firstly, it seems most of those who are very supportive of the "Cesar Way" are women. I wondered why this would be ?...Most men figured out at a very early age, women want to be the boss, the pack leader, with a lot of men this is hard for women to attain so I think women see dogs as an animal in which they CAN control, they CAN be the pack leader and why women are so emotionally attached to the teachings of the Dog Whisper and so defensive of this man... Just a theory but I think it's right


Dude, I found these, I think they are yours...








That's a joke btw. I ain't touch'n this one with a 10 foot pole, lol.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

ChrissyBz said:


> Does this mean you're a girly man???


I can tell you this, I've trained five pointers now and they've all been healthy sociable dogs. I let them be dogs, they let me be a human. They know every command and every limit. I've never touched one and never have used a E-collar or any other "easy out" lazy methods of training. My current Vizsla just decided to steal a paper towel out of the garbage (this means I'm spending too much time on the computer), I tried the finger thing and _Shhhh_.. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I told him to release it and he did. He's a dog and yes we play kissy face and tummy rub and all of the other things dogs love.


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## Devi (Oct 31, 2007)

SK63 said:


> I can tell you this, I've trained five pointers now and they've all been healthy sociable dogs. I let them be dogs, they let me be a human. They know every command and every limit. I've never touched one and never have used a E-collar or any other "easy out" lazy methods of training. My current Vizsla just decided to steal a paper towel out of the garbage (this means I'm spending too much time on the computer), I tried the finger thing and _Shhhh_.. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I told him to release it and he did. He's a dog and yes we play kissy face and tummy rub and all of the other things dogs love.


I'm sure you weren't doing the "finger thing" correctly, as you've already stated that you don't believe in that type of training. Dogs won't listen to something you don't stand behind, yet more fuel to my argument that it does the method no justice if not done correctly and for the right situations. I don't recall us talking about "easy-out" methods or saying that we aren't "kissy kissy face" with our dogs 'cause you're making it seem like our training entails being domineering and unaffectionate with our dogs. I won't even go into the unintelligent theory you made based around a sexist belief. I think the others covered that one just fine.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

SK63 said:


> I can tell you this, I've trained five pointers now and they've all been healthy sociable dogs. I let them be dogs, they let me be a human. They know every command and every limit. I've never touched one and never have used a E-collar or any other "easy out" lazy methods of training. My current Vizsla just decided to steal a paper towel out of the garbage (this means I'm spending too much time on the computer), I tried the finger thing and _Shhhh_.. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I told him to release it and he did. He's a dog and yes we play kissy face and tummy rub and all of the other things dogs love.


Guess that answers my question. Thanks


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I laughed until my gut burst at the female dominating theory. I'm going to have to tell the girls I know that their aspiration in life is to become more manly.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

RBark said:


> I laughed until my gut burst at the female dominating theory. I'm going to have to tell the girls I know that their aspiration in life is to become more manly.


You mean you didn't know that breasts are our pathetic attempt at growing a pair? Now all we need is knuckles dragging on the ground and a hairy back.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

That's my que to resign this thread.
(ya know it could've of been those knuckles dragging that got the dogs to follow us in the first place...)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Whenever I get young couples picking up their training dog and we discuss the dog, I do make a statement that young males have an ego problem when working their dogs. I also manage to get eye contact with the male owners. Then to lighten the mood I tell them that after 40 some odd married years my ego has disappeared. we all laugh but I usually get the point across that egos and macho stuff do not help when working a dog. Objective thought is the secret. I have met excellent men and women trainers, but also being an idiot is not gender specific.


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> But, if you don't count your behaviors and the dog's, you risk someone like me calling you a loon.  I have yet to meet one person, outside of the dog trainers I know, who count punishments and behaviors.


When I said Whiskey dog got "better", that means he doesn't growl / bite like he did when I first picked him up. So I might not have an exact number, although I can tell you .. he lunged at my sister the first second he saw her, he bit my aunt's feet on the same day and receieved 2 alpha rolls. The next day he received a couple more for biting/growling/lunging.

Then he came to my house and there was less. We did have a few more problems - he attacked my nephew unprovoked and got rolled. He bit at my face and got rolled. Although, that was my fault for trying to treat him like one of my dogs but he still got the correction.

The last 2 weeks I had him he did not bite at anybody and therefore he did not get alpha rolled. Occasionally he would growl but a sharp noise and a point in his direction would cause him to knock it off and even roll onto his back in a submissive position. So as he changed he got less corrections.



> Most men figured out at a very early age, women want to be the boss, the pack leader, with a lot of men this is hard for women to attain so I think women see dogs as an animal in which they CAN control, they CAN be the pack leader ..


I don't like your theory. I'm a woman and I don't want to control my dogs simply because I can't control a man. It has nothing to do with being on a power trip and wanting control over something.

I love dogs and I always have. I would love to have a whole bunch of them. If I have dogs that don't respect me, how will I control them? 

I'm 5'4 and 120 lbs and I weight train a little bit and I'm "strong" for my size - but when dogs are pulling (for example) they are strong! With following Ceasar's ideas I added a new dog to my pack, bringing it up to 3 dogs. All together I can walk a 40lb border collie mix, a 75lb lab and an 80lb lab mix. They out weigh me by 75lbs!! If they were not in control and following my lead how the heck would I walk them? I couldn't - not together. As it is now, we can pass kids and dogs and squirrels and cars and it's easy. I can in fact even let the leashes go and they still walk beside/behind me. I can jog with the 3 of them and I've even biked while holding 3 leashes ... cars slow down and look at me like I'm insane 

That's why I follow these techniques. If I didn't .. I'd still have my 2 I used to have but I certainly couldn't have easily added a third.

I saw an episode of the Dog Whisperer where there was an old lady who had a pretty wild shepherd and with Ceasar's help and walking him properly she was able to control him on her own. Not because she wanted to dominate him because she wanted to walk him. I thought it was pretty cool =)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jerzegirl
*I'm 5'4 and 120 lbs and I weight train a little bit and I'm "strong" for my size - but when dogs are pulling (for example) they are strong! With following Ceasar's ideas I added a new dog to my pack, bringing it up to 3 dogs. All together I can walk a 40lb border collie mix, a 75lb lab and an 80lb lab mix. They out weigh me by 75lbs!! If they were not in control and following my lead how the heck would I walk them? I couldn't - not together.*

Don't you just like results, another dog has a good home.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Dude, I found these, I think they are yours...


Hahaha. OMG. As much over the years that I've written LOL, this is one of the few times it really happened. That's classic. By the way, my wife runs my house, except for the dogs. She has far less trouble controlling me than our 3 girls!



SK63 said:


> I tried the finger thing and _Shhhh_.. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I told him to release it and he did.


I guess it worked as intended then. The touch and sound aren't supposed to serve as punishment or commands, only to redirect the dogs attention. With him looking at you, I would assume that means you got his attention.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

jerzegirl said:


> What I mean by my chaos theory is every pack needs direction and needs an enforcer of the rules.


My dogs walk through doors before me sometimes. They walk in front of me when we're on walks, occasionally. I let them stop and sniff hydrants, trees and so on, as their houndsy noses are wont to do. Oh yeah, and we cuddle on the couch while watching The Simpsons. 

Is my house chaotic? No. Not once have I had a fight. Not once have I had any of my dogs display the slightest amount of aggression towards me. Once, I dealt with a dominance issue, but no alpha rolls were required to solve it. Once, before I knew any better, I also saw a professional trainer alpha roll my dog when she was barking at a cat at the vet. My dog got up, shook herself and went back to the cat. 

Some of Cesar's principles hold true. "Exercise, discipline, affection" is good. So is "rules, boundaries, limitations." So is the emphasis on not anthropomorphising a dog.

But I cannot agree with Cesar's methods because most of them are invalid. You cannot deal with fear-aggression with prong collar leash-corrections. You cannot cure a phobia of swimming by yanking a dog into a pool. You cannot tell me that alpha rolls are a good way to instill respect in a dog when alpha rolls aren't even performed by wild wolves, let alone claim that they are relevant to a far more domesticated animal.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

rosemaryninja said:


> You cannot cure a phobia of swimming by yanking a dog into a pool. .


I disagree with this wholeheartedly. While it may seem cruel, I think this is the only way to cure a phobia. How do you cure a dog that is afraid of men without getting them around men? People are no different. How do you cure someone who is afraid of heights, while refusing to have them go up at all? To me, if you or your dog are never made to face any of your fears, they will always be your fears. The question, to me, is whether a particualr fear is important enough to make the dog go through what it needs to in order to overcome it. Just like military training. You can simulate war and train for it both physically and psychologically, but there is nothing like being in the middle of bombs and bullets flying at you that could ever prepare you for it. 



rosemaryninja said:


> You cannot tell me that alpha rolls are a good way to instill respect in a dog when alpha rolls aren't even performed by wild wolves, let alone claim that they are relevant to a far more domesticated animal.


 I don't think that what goes on in the wild is really a fair assesment of what works in training with our dogs. I have yet to see a wolf mother with a carrot in her mouth, trying to make her cubs sit or not jump up on people when they get too close.


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> My dogs walk through doors before me sometimes. They walk in front of me when we're on walks, occasionally. I let them stop and sniff hydrants, trees and so on, as their houndsy noses are wont to do. Oh yeah, and we cuddle on the couch while watching The Simpsons.
> 
> Is my house chaotic? No. Not once have I had a fight. Not once have I had any of my dogs display the slightest amount of aggression towards me. Once, I dealt with a dominance issue, but no alpha rolls were required to solve it.
> But I cannot agree with Cesar's methods because most of them are invalid. You cannot deal with fear-aggression with prong collar leash-corrections. You cannot cure a phobia of swimming by yanking a dog into a pool. You cannot tell me that alpha rolls are a good way to instill respect in a dog when alpha rolls aren't even performed by wild wolves, let alone claim that they are relevant to a far more domesticated animal.


I also sometimes forget and let my dogs out the door first. No big deal. I also occasionally let mine walk in front of me and sniff trees etc. I pick the time though, that's the difference.

I hate the Simpson's but I cuddle with mine on the couch watching Lost  I'm still the leader. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do any of those things and that's not what ceasar teaches either.

Perhaps you have one of those super submissive happy go lucky dogs and you have no need to be the leader because your dog will never try to take that position from you - - if that's the case, you're lucky =)

But the bottom line is if you don't have one of those dogs ... you should be the pack leader.

I've never used a prong collar on a dog. However, I do agree with flooding. How else will you cure a dog of a phobia? They don't understand conversation so explaining it is useless.

My lab is scared of loud noise like fireworks and thunder and she'll go and hide somewhere in the house. What I started doing this summer during fireworks in the neighbourhood is I'd put my shoes on very matter of fact .. NO baby talking to her about "it's okay" and leash her and walk her properly. Little by little she started to realize, where if I had her on a flexi she would be pulling all over the place and trying to hide. She's not 100% cured but she's better then she was =)

As I said, I'm talking about MY personal experiences with alpha rolls and yes, I can tell you they work and they instill respect. I've done it and I've seen the results. Will they work with every dog? I don't know, however, every dog DOESN'T need to be alpha rolled to begin with.


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## Gates1026 (Mar 14, 2007)

jerzegirl said:


> However, I do agree with flooding. How else will you cure a dog of a phobia? They don't understand conversation so explaining it is useless.


Although I do have conversations with my dogs from time to time (they are really good listeners) , they obviously dont understand me.

Instead of flooding, you should try desentization and counter conditioning to allow them to modify their behavior. Expose them to very small doses of what they fear, little enough for starters that they dont shut down (which is what flooding is asking of your dog). Over the course of time, you will be able to expose them to greater and greater levels of the fear producing stimulus.......slowly. The key is to find that threshold where the unwanted behavior is produced and not cross that. If you get that unwanted behavior, you have gone too far too fast.

Counter conditioning is pairing a neutral or negative stimulus with something good. Perhaps your dog is afraid of newpaper. You work at making the newspaper be something that predicts good things (say treats for instance). You expose the dog to something that they fear (in small doses) while giving them something that that motivates them in a positive way. Over time this reaction will become less and less intense.



> My lab is scared of loud noise like fireworks and thunder and she'll go and hide somewhere in the house. What I started doing this summer during fireworks in the neighbourhood is I'd put my shoes on very matter of fact .. NO baby talking to her about "it's okay" and leash her and walk her properly. Little by little she started to realize, where if I had her on a flexi she would be pulling all over the place and trying to hide. She's not 100% cured but she's better then she was =)


Is your lab motivated by walks? Does he get excited when he knows a walk is coming? I am not sure I have ever met a lab who isnt, so it is probably a silly question. You are pairing something that the dog fears with something that the dog enjoys. It sounds to me like you may be using counter conditioning without even knowing it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Ninja
*But I cannot agree with Cesar's methods because most of them are invalid. You cannot deal with fear-aggression with prong collar leash-corrections. You cannot cure a phobia of swimming by yanking a dog into a pool. You cannot tell me that alpha rolls are a good way to instill respect in a dog when alpha rolls aren't even performed by wild wolves, let alone claim that they are relevant to a far more domesticated animal.* 

When you rule out a training method as invalid you are saying that it won't work on any dogs. If any method works on 1 dog out of a 1000 you may not like it but it works. I have read many times about prongs/head halters/alpha rolls/e-collars etc etc etc as tools. (bad tools) Think, that if you were a dog trainer or owner or dog person. The larger your bag of tools the better the odds of helping your dogs. Using the right tool for the job is a problem with some of the people involved with dogs. You or I will never be able to solve that problem.
I respect your opinions on the matter and it sounds like your dogs have all the help they need.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

10th said:


> How do you cure a dog that is afraid of men without getting them around men? People are no different. How do you cure someone who is afraid of heights, while refusing to have them go up at all? To me, if you or your dog are never made to face any of your fears, they will always be your fears. The question, to me, is whether a particualr fear is important enough to make the dog go through what it needs to in order to overcome it.


 Bob Bailey, a highly regarded animal trainer, has a knack with metaphors. One of my favorites is the Pavlov on one of the dog’s shoulder and Skinner on the other. An expert dog trainer fight to keep Pavlov and Skinner on equal ground.

We’re all familiar with Pavlov’s dog. Pavlov was able to make a dog salivate by the simple rigging of a bell. Pavlov’s work centered on innate and respondent behaviors to emotion. (Classical Conditioning)
Skinner’s dog on the other hand was conditioned to push a lever to earn a reward. The dog voluntarily offered a behavior to earn some sort of reward. (Operant Conditioning)

When dealing with phobias, it is necessary to keep these two balanced; otherwise, if one predominates over the other, the resulting fallout often times is worse than the fear reaction itself.

Let me give you a personal example of negative fallout. I was a huge fan of prize fighting. Tyson, Holyfield, Sugar Ray, Chavez, I loved watching these guys. Then one day Ultimate Fighting came around…a new fix for me in skill and competition. That was until I saw the brutal reality of some dude’s face being punched in and blood splattering everywhere. Although I wasn’t forced to watch, I did, and to this day I have to leave the room when injury becomes a question. My emotional response to the event is no longer enjoyable, I haven’t watched a prize fight in years. In this example Pavlov was bigger than Skinner. My emotional response to the event was significant enough to effect my behavior of watching prize fighting. 

As much as Cesar talks about giving a dog balance, I really wish when he uses flooding to ‘rehabilitate’ a dog, he’d consider balancing Pavlov and Skinner. Does flooding work? We certainly DON’T know this to be true from Cesar’s show. We never see the long term end result from him flooding dogs. The only time flooding does work is when alternate behaviors are being taught around the stimulus. Cesar doesn’t do that, remember, he’s not a trainer. All we see are dogs shutting down to his punishment, and I can’t say with any confidence that’s learning. 

So, how does one approach treating phobias? With a systematic approach using both desensitization (exposure to the stimulus at level zero, increasing to 10 dependent on threshold levels), and counter conditioning (teaching an alternate behavior when presented with a stimulus). This isn’t flooding like Cesar does it. The process is slow, and honestly, not made for TV. 


> I have yet to see a wolf mother with a carrot in her mouth, trying to make her cubs sit or not jump up on people when they get too close.


 You haven’t? Well, I guess I haven’t either, but I have seen mama dog step in between two rowdy pups to settle down play. Play being the reward, your carrot, and less rowdy play being the target behavior (sit). 

The Monks of New Skete were one of the first to advocate alpha rolls. They now regret advocating it because of fears it would be misused. I say their fears are realized every time Cesar uses it


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

Gates1026 said:


> Is your lab motivated by walks? Does he get excited when he knows a walk is coming? I am not sure I have ever met a lab who isnt, so it is probably a silly question. You are pairing something that the dog fears with something that the dog enjoys. It sounds to me like you may be using counter conditioning without even knowing it.


Actually, if you met my Jersey you'd laugh. Although she's all lab, she is one of the most fearful dogs I've seen - - to the point where it's almost funny. To her a walk is not a big enough reward or fun time to want to go out during fireworks or thunder. I literally have to go and leash her where she's hiding. I think because I walk my dogs so much they really don't get that excited if they get an "extra" one because they're already tired out.

I suppose walking her during fireworks isn't flooding because we're not even all that close but we can hear them. I've found me staying calm and just walking very matter of fact makes a huge difference.

I don't see dogs as shutting down when they get flooding used on them. I would more call what Jersey does - - hiding in the closet, shaking as shutting down. 

Kane the great dane with the fear of hardwood floors or whatever it was never went into the position I've seen J go into. He was walking across the floor on a loose leash at the end of the episode. Did he keep it up afterwards? No idea .. I like to think he did but I'm a believer =)


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

jerzegirl said:


> Kane the great dane with the fear of hardwood floors or whatever it was never went into the position I've seen J go into. He was walking across the floor on a loose leash at the end of the episode. Did he keep it up afterwards? No idea .. I like to think he did but I'm a believer =)


He did recently go back there to see Kane when he had a client in that neighborhood. The dog just casually walked up and greeted him. Looked to me like the dog was fine now. His head and ears were up, and not along the back line. That dog seems to get a lot of reaction from people, I see it cited often. (No matter how good a producer you are, you can't edit posture and body language.)


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## jerzegirl (Jan 16, 2008)

That's nice to hear! Too bad I missed that one!


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## Gates1026 (Mar 14, 2007)

jerzegirl said:


> Kane the great dane with the fear of hardwood floors or whatever it was never went into the position I've seen J go into. He was walking across the floor on a loose leash at the end of the episode. Did he keep it up afterwards? No idea .. I like to think he did but I'm a believer =)


I don't believe that in this case the end justifies the means, there is more risk in the post flooding fallout than I would have been will to take on. I remember that episode, Kane was foaming at the mouth for a period between 5 and 10 minutes while he was being held in place. To get that sort of response, the dog must have been under some intense stress.

Cesar has the advantage of not needing to worry about his relationship with a dog that he meets on his TV show, he spends a very short time with each. When I think of my personal situation, this is a serious concern. My goal in having a dog as a companion is to have an animal that trusts me and respects me, I don't want to take the chance of having them fear me or to not trust me. When I chose how to deal with behavior or personality problems, I want to ensure that I use the least averse strategy possible to ensure that I don't damage the relationship I have worked hard to build.

Just my two cents worth.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Like I said... The dog is fine and content with the floors now. The owner obviously continued to work with the dog in a manner that worked for her. He goes with her to school every day acoording to the update.

(4¢ now?)


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## Gates1026 (Mar 14, 2007)

harrise said:


> Like I said... The dog is fine and content with the floors now. The owner obviously continued to work with the dog in a manner that worked for her. He goes with her to school every day acoording to the update.


I was speaking more toward the bigger picture of flooding in general. It appears as if this specific case turned out well, but seeing that it is a TV show I personally take it with a grain of salt. Call me a skeptic


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Well it's pretty hard to doctor a video up to make it look like a dog that was foaming at the mouth when seeing a slick floor, is walking without any hesitation across the same floor. Call me gullible I guess. I like what a previous poster said about tools. There is no solution that will work 100% of the time on different dogs with varying degrees of the same problem. Flooding worked (or it seems like it did to me) in this situation where desensitizing did not. Putting a dog that's afraid of men with hats in a baseball stadium on game day is probably not the best choice for curing that particular phobia. It's no different than kids. One style of teaching may work for certain kids, but not for others. Some people are learn visually and some audibly. So does that make a teacher who teaches using visual aides wrong, simply because not all the students can relate to the aides? Or is the teacher who doesn't use them because they know not all of the class is benefitting from them wrong?


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Thank god for Tivo! That episode was on the hard drive, so I watched it and watched it and watched it. I didn't see any foaming, what I witnessed was the drool that most Danes get from walking. The one I've been walking does that, long stringy lines that almost reach the floor, and always after a walk. Cesar did walk him before the attempt at the floor. I guess just like anything else, it's open to interpretation by the viewer. To me, the ten minutes elapsed time was far from a flood. On the fourth day he went and did a follow up (all in the same segment), and Kane was nearly dragging her into the building! I'm not trying to argue, this discussion is really making me think, and with Tivo I can keep going back again and again to try and see the opposite viewpoints from my own. Still trying to tie it together with the pack theory thing. The only mention of it was to not let the dog win, hence him sitting in the chair and waiting for the dog to gradually move towards him. One step at a time.









(This is Beans, I've been working on his social skills, currently relaxin in the house with 7 other dogs)


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

the-tenth said:


> So does that make a teacher who teaches using visual aides wrong, simply because not all the students can relate to the aides? Or is the teacher who doesn't use them because they know not all of the class is benefitting from them wrong?


Only when you want the argument to be emotional do you ask if it right or wrong. Answering whether it's effective, however, takes more than 30 minutes to realize, and requires future testing. Flooding can work, and I think it did with the Dane/linoleum case. Why did it work? We can only guess. It may have worked because the behavior wasn't rehearsed that often, and the dog wasn't as far over threshold as we thought. In which case, I wouldn't call that a phobia. But it begs the question, what if the dog freaked out, and what was once a novelty issue is now a phobia. What good would have flooding been then? Remember, it took only 1 UFC event for me to not care to watch fighting events ever again. That's a real concern. Will Cesar show this episode? Of course not, he'd be a fool if he did. But, thank doG we non-show-producing people have a choice or nor rating to worry about, and IMO, I think we owe it to our dog to take on their fears slowly. 

D/CC has it's faults too. Being a slow process it's prone to failure due to lack of owner compliance, not to mention it's often difficult or impractical to apply in the field. But, if done correctly, the classical conditioning fallout that may result is not as dangerous as that which you will find with flooding. 

Some of you may be wondering, how in the heck are you going to D/CC a dog around a linoleum floor? You can buy 12 inch squares of linoleum tile pretty cheaply at your local hardware store. Start in your garage, and one tile at a time expand the area while working on simple commands like 'watch me' or 'sit', rewarding the dog as you go along. The beauty of this approach is I can easily remove what's scary when the dog is over threshold, and take it at the dog's pace (keeping Pavlov and Skinner in cahoots). But like I said, there's not much 'made-for-TV' drama in this approach.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Only when you want the argument to be emotional do you ask if it right or wrong. Answering whether it's effective, however, takes more than 30 minutes to realize, and requires future testing. Flooding can work, and I think it did with the Dane/linoleum case. Why did it work? We can only guess.


Agreed. And for anyone who doesn't frequent the show, this is not the only way that he deals with a dog and fear. He also had a rescue dog (not a dog that was rescued) that had developed a massive fear of thunderstorms and gunshots (I think it had been in either Iraq of Afghanistan). He got a travel trailer, rigged it up with strobe lights a huge soud system, and a treadmill. First he started walking the dog on the treadmill by itself. He slowly added the lighting and flashes with the strobe lights until the dog was pretty much walking right through everything. It seemed to be a very long and drawn out process. He even took the dog to a gun range and was walking it by the end, and it seemed unfazed. Just didn't want people that have no interest in the show thniking that every time he sees a dog with a fear he throws it into the scariest situation he can think of. Different methods for different situations.


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## Gates1026 (Mar 14, 2007)

the-tenth said:


> Well it's pretty hard to doctor a video up to make it look like a dog that was foaming at the mouth when seeing a slick floor, is walking without any hesitation across the same floor. Call me gullible I guess. I like what a previous poster said about tools. There is no solution that will work 100% of the time on different dogs with varying degrees of the same problem.


I couldn't agree with you more on this. There is definitely no single method that will work for every single job. I thought that this specific case could have been handled differently than it was. I have indeed seen Cesar branch out a bit in his latest season to include more methods in his toolbox, this is something that I was hoping would happen at some point.

My main gripe with many of his shows is that he presents his methods as something that everyone could or even should do with their dogs. He does include a disclaimer at the beginning of every show, but he then IMO contradicts that and instructs everyone on the show to do exactly as he does. I wish that he would spend more time talking about other methods.....even if for that specific case he decides not to use them.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

the-tenth said:


> I disagree with this wholeheartedly. While it may seem cruel, I think this is the only way to cure a phobia. How do you cure a dog that is afraid of men without getting them around men? People are no different. How do you cure someone who is afraid of heights, while refusing to have them go up at all? To me, if you or your dog are never made to face any of your fears, they will always be your fears.





jerzegirl said:


> I've never used a prong collar on a dog. However, I do agree with flooding. How else will you cure a dog of a phobia? They don't understand conversation so explaining it is useless.


I'm certainly not saying that dogs should never be made to face their fears. Neither am I saying that you should be sitting down on an armchair speaking to your dog about her fears.

My question is, if you were afraid of centipedes, would you be made any less scared of them by me dumping a tank of centipedes all over you? No. You would be made less scared of them by getting slowly and gradually desensitized to them. When my dog was fear-aggressive, I didn't force her into a room of dogs and let her "face her fears". I desensitized her to other dogs by gradually bringing her closer and closer to other dogs, over the course of two months, so that she was always comfortable.

Flooding causes dogs to shut down completely, and people then think that the behaviour is solved because there is no aggression or fearful behaviour being displayed. The effects of flooding are rarely permanent.



> I don't think that what goes on in the wild is really a fair assesment of what works in training with our dogs.


Good point. So why on earth do people alpha roll their dogs, thinking "that's what alpha wolves do, so that's what our dogs understand"?



> I have read many times about prongs/head halters/alpha rolls/e-collars etc etc etc as tools. (bad tools) Think, that if you were a dog trainer or owner or dog person. The larger your bag of tools the better the odds of helping your dogs. Using the right tool for the job is a problem with some of the people involved with dogs. You or I will never be able to solve that problem.


We are agreeing. I did not say the prong collar is a bad tool. I said it is a bad tool to use in the case of fear-aggression, because it further associates the trigger (seeing other dogs, seeing kids, hearing loud noises) with a punishment. It is a fine tool in the case of other problems or jobs. I know someone who used a prong collar to teach his dog to heel.


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## Malkuth (Jan 19, 2008)

The problem with this, is that we are basically facing two totally opposite Theories on Dog Behavior. We have the Dog Whisperer which is basically the old fashioned way. And the theories of Dr. Ian Dunbar.

Ceaser uses his methods to basically fix dogs that are trouble. And people consider his methods basically based on Flooding, or punishment.

Dr. Ian Dunbar methods that most of of use are Positive Reinforcements.

A lot of people believe that Ian and his followers are just jealous because hate him or not Ceaser gets results done fast, and has a good show. Dunbar and others do not get the media coverage that Ceaser does.

You basically have to make up your mind. Not all dogs are the same. Some methods don't work with some dogs. Other do.

I myself find the pack theory a realistic thing. And makes sense. I don't do dog whisperer things to my dog. Nor do I care if my dog goes out the door first. I do care that she is on my side when I walk her though, and that I win most of the FUN games we play.

Some people hate Ceaser and say pack thing he does is stupid. But they also tend to Love to talk about using Crates to train dogs. Well what do they say a crate represents to a dog? Basically a den, that prime instinct the dogs have from history's ago? they go to den to be safe! helo? Dogs in the wild run in packs and have 1 leader of the pack and live in DENS! You can't say that using a Crate to make a puppy think its a DEN works. And not the pack theory. 

When a dog see something running what does it do? It chases it usually right? Why?

Like it or not, or beloved pets still have that Primal instinct that is in all dogs.

If Dr Dunbars methods work good use them. They are very positive and friendly to both parties.

If Dr Dinbars methods are not working and you have an aggressive dog, then Ceasers methods might be the answer. I have no idea, what it is he does with the whole hand thing. But it seems to work. Hell I watched a show where he just pointed at a dog that charges and did the SHHHHHH thing and it stoped dead in its track. That was crazy!

I have also seen him use a choke collar on TV. And I hate those dam things. So in a way I agree with some of his methods, and hate others. The choke collar pisses me off most the time.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Malkuth said:


> The problem with this, is that we are basically facing two totally opposite Theories on Dog Behavior. We have the Dog Whisperer which is basically the old fashioned way. And the theories of Dr. Ian Dunbar.


Although I'm sure Dr. Dunbar appreciates the credit...actually, he wouldn't appreciate you crediting theories that are not his own. In fact, he'd quickly correct you on that. Learning theory has been around as long, if not longer, than pack theory. So really, there's nothing new about either. But if you're wondering how pack theory became popular, you wouldn't look at Cesar for that answer, you'd actually have to look at Hitler's ideology. 



> Ceaser uses his methods to basically fix dogs that are trouble. And people consider his methods basically based on Flooding, or punishment.


Actually no, that would be learning theory. Cesar basis his methods in dominance theory.



> Dr. Ian Dunbar methods that most of of use are Positive Reinforcements.


Again, that's not true. Dr. Dunbar uses all four corners of the quadrant. He is by no means a purely positive trainer. In fact, he can be highly critical of purely positive trainers. 



> A lot of people believe that Ian and his followers are just jealous because hate him or not Ceaser gets results done fast, and has a good show. Dunbar and others do not get the media coverage that Ceaser does.


Dr. Dunbar has been out of television for a few decades now, television wasn't satisfying his mission. His focus group, unlike Cesar's, are dog trainers of all experiences, and methodology. Cesar's focus group are those who answer Nielson Rating surveys. 



> Some people hate Ceaser and say pack thing he does is stupid. But they also tend to Love to talk about using Crates to train dogs. Well what do they say a crate represents to a dog? Basically a den, that prime instinct the dogs have from history's ago? they go to den to be safe! helo? Dogs in the wild run in packs and have 1 leader of the pack and live in DENS! You can't say that using a Crate to make a puppy think its a DEN works. And not the pack theory.


Actually, we don't really know what dog's think of crates...perhaps they see them as plastic containers like we do. But like you said, some dogs prefer sleeping in crates and others don't. you can't argue with logic, you can only employ it, and some people employ the idea that crates are like dens. But, you can use a crate and never have to think of it that way, and it still can be enjoyable to the dog. 

And no, there is no evidence that dogs are a true packing animal, certainly not like wild animals. In fact, if you've ever visited a third world country, most the dogs you'll see are solitary. And no the theory that there is one leader is simply not true. As long as the dog breeds, he/she will be the leader at some point. 



> When a dog see something running what does it do? It chases it usually right? Why?


For the same reason you smile when a guest arrives. It's a motor pattern that operates by the program in the dog's head. If humans were bred to eat only meat and chase after their food, the evolutionary pressures would dictate that you chase moving objects too. Form follows function. 



> Like it or not, or beloved pets still have that Primal instinct that is in all dogs.


So we should ignore the differences that occurred due to evolution, artificial selection, and domestication? Question for you... Why do very few dogs eat what they kill? Do you know what happens to a border collie that kills a sheep it's herding?



> If Dr Dunbars methods work good use them. They are very positive and friendly to both parties.


We would hope that's the goal of any method of dog training.



> Hell I watched a show where he just pointed at a dog that charges and did the SHHHHHH thing and it stoped dead in its track. That was crazy!


What's crazy is that it can be explained using learning theory very easily, but of course the Cesarites don't care to hear that. 



> The choke collar pisses me off most the time.


Don't say that at a dog show or you'll have a lot of up turned noses to look at, lol.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I sure hope any young would be amateur trainers don't start reading replies on the forum and think before they train a dog they either have to spend many hours watching TV shows or go to the local library and read countless books and magazines before they start any training. I myself think training 1 dog puts you ahead of 17 TV shows and 6 books. To compare I use to tell customers about starting a bird dog and I would say that a dog who hunts and produces 1 wild bird on his own learns more than 25 planted pigeons. I'm also sure there are books or articles written about overhauling an engine by somebody who has never touched a wrench. Dare I think that could be possible with dog books, you betcha. Another thing I think about is that after reading the replies I'm wondering are there any good dogs out there without assorted phobias etc. Dogs are much more resilient than I'm hearing about here. The last 20 years of my training dogs has been 90% prong collar 10% balance other types of collars with one exception, no choke collars. (1st 24 years I used chokes) I have never done an alpha roll though. Are dogs pack animals? yes, In my opinion 100 % pack animals. Is there an alpha? again yes. Again as when I started this reply If I were a young dog owner reading some of the things I would be scared to death of doing anything to my dog, fearing I would ruin him forever. This is my opinion only.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Another thing I think about is that after reading the replies I'm wondering are there any good dogs out there without assorted phobias etc.


I often wonder the same thing too, but I can't imagine the disconnect I see is the same one you see. 



> Dogs are much more resilient than I'm hearing about here.


I'm not sure what's the point in stating this. Can dogs tolerate our abuses, absolutely, but that says nothing or our humanity IMO. 



> Again as when I started this reply If I were a young dog owner reading some of the things I would be scared to death of doing anything to my dog, fearing I would ruin him forever. This is my opinion only.


That's your opinion, yes. But if someone is going to jump off a bridge, I'm inclined to tell them they could die. My point is exaggerated, but so are the abuses our dogs tolerate.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

Malkuth said:


> Hell I watched a show where he just pointed at a dog that charges and did the SHHHHHH thing and it stoped dead in its track. That was crazy! .


Give me one dog, one E-collar and I'll show you exactly how the "Shhhh" thing works. Press button and simultaneously say "Shhhhh". Just that simple.

http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2006/11/07/news/nebraska/c51b0252258c66cf8625721f0012d68d.txt


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Prophet

*That's your opinion, yes. But if someone is going to jump off a bridge, I'm inclined to tell them they could die. My point is exaggerated, but so are the abuses our dogs tolerate.*

I definitely understand your exaggerated point also the abuses that dogs tolerate and I do agree. The people that care enough to read this forum I think are already about 100 steps up the ladder of evolution by caring enough to even bother coming here. I don't believe the abusers are going to bother jumping online as it's much easier to jump on their dogs. I just wanted to get another view across so that new dog owners do not read something into the dog (phobia etc.) that is not there. Sometimes I'm not so good with words trying to get points across. But I do have a dog weapon that many do not have. I am in this business long enough to get many calls through the years from people whose problem dogs I have trained that (when the dog goes to the Rainbow Bridge) have a new pup they want trained. I once had a couple who dropped off an 18 month old male Rottie for obedience. I trained the dog and when they picked the dog up they told me that a BEHAVIORIST THAT TOLD THEM THE DOG SHOULD BE PUT DOWN. They neglected to tell me that when dropping dog off just when they picked dog up. 8 years later when their Rott died I trained a new dog for them. Please understand one thing I do not have any magic wands, no college degrees etc etc. I have stated on other posts about not being the brightest bulb in the box. What I did have was the drive to go out and work a dog and then work him some more. I think this is the biggest secret in dog training. Sorry I did not mean to get so long winded on subject.


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## Malkuth (Jan 19, 2008)

SK63 said:


> Give me one dog, one E-collar and I'll show you exactly how the "Shhhh" thing works. Press button and simultaneously say "Shhhhh". Just that simple.
> 
> http://www.siouxcityjournal.com/articles/2006/11/07/news/nebraska/c51b0252258c66cf8625721f0012d68d.txt


I really don't think he is cheating SK63.


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## SK63 (Jan 15, 2008)

Malkuth said:


> I really don't think he is cheating SK63.


Obviously I don't know either. What I do know is the extreme amount of time and patience it takes to train a dog or recondition a dog. In the instance of the dog chasing a car link I posted, he went straight to the E-collar. Is using an E-collar a problem for me ? NO. Is that dog whispering ? NO. Is it a problem for me to go straight to a E-collar without exhausting other means ? YES. Is that dog whispering ? NO.


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## layla (Jan 20, 2008)

Dog abuse is bad. Abusive means of training should not be used. I can't see much discussion there.


P.S. Dominance IS important for obedience anyway.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

layla said:


> P.S. Dominance IS important for obedience anyway.


If dominance were important for obedience, how would you convince the dog that sitting was a contest he should lose? Perhaps it isn't dominance at all, but rather motivation. Motivation IS important for obedience.


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## BaxterB (Jan 21, 2008)

Personally, I think the terms "dominance" and "alpha" are often misunderstood and misused and I do believe in pack theory after living in a multi dog household. Dogs are social creatures like humans and function as a group. It is common in multi dog households, if you pay close attention, to see that each dog usually has a role or job in this group as someone mentioned earlier in this forum. That to me is an example of pack mentality in dogs...they work together to keep the pack safe and happy. 

I do not think you need to necessary dominate your dog but if by dominating or being alpha you mean you are being a good calm and assertive leader for your dogs then I think it does have a practical place in training. I have found it to be much easier to get my dog to listen to me and follow by showing him leadership...where this is often misconstrued is that in "dominating" and "showing your dog that you are alpha" people tend to be harsh and over corrective with their dogs.

Being a good leader means building trust with your dog so that they know it is in their best interest to listen to you because they get a positive outcome by doing so. 

I have plenty of opinions on Caesar but I will stick with what the OP was asking and keep them to myself


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> This won't be popular but I'll go ahead and say it as I'm starting to find the whole Cesar thing interesting. Firstly, it seems most of those who are very supportive of the "Cesar Way" are women. I wondered why this would be ? So I started thinking of how women (who I know) relate to dogs and it seems to be more in line with Cesar. No kissy kissy stuff, not a whole lot of physical affection, etc. Most men figured out at a very early age, women want to be the boss, the pack leader, with a lot of men this is hard for women to attain so I think women see dogs as an animal in which they CAN control, they CAN be the pack leader and why women are so emotionally attached to the teachings of the Dog Whisper and so defensive of this man. That's not to say women are not emotionally attached to dogs as I know that is not true but they are also more in to the controlling aspect of Human-Dog relationship. . Certainly without a SINGLE DOUBT, the male dog trainers I know who cling to this pack leader deal are the stereotypical Type -A- testosterone Jock trainers (Protection and hunting dog ). Just a theory but I think it's right


ROFLMAO! (BTW, what planet are you from? I'm just joking) 

This is so funny to me because I've often heard it said that, the reason men prefer dogs over cats is because they can't control a cat, even when using force! LOL 



As a human being who happens to be female, I'm not into having *control over* anyone - be they human, canine, or feline! Now, *having control with* is a whole 'nuther thing! I could care less about pack theory, know for a fact that it is totally irrelavent in my training, feel that alpha rolls are abusive and totally unnecessary, and dominance plays no part in daily life with my dogs, and those I foster, especially when it comes to me. As to your statement that women are supportive of the Cesar Way, you couldn't be further from the truth when it comes to me! I abhor many of his methods, and feel sick when I see people practicing his methods (i.e., alpha rolls with a dog who lunges at other dogs, jerking and yanking the leash, etc.). I'm very affectionate with my dogs, who are regarded as family members (and whom are very affectionate with me), and share a deep bond and emotional intimacy that is impossible for me to articulate. Your theory has huge holes! LOL 

I've had dogs over a span of 55 years, knew zip about canine behavior (other than my own observations), much less training methods, yet, my dogs have all been well-behaved, wonderful companions whom I could count on to not bark at, jump on, or bite other dogs or people, and, who would respond to whatever I asked of them. I sure didn't have to resort to force to get them to cooperate! I don't speak dog, nor did they speak/understand English, yet the communication was there, and the _knowing,_ brought about by observation from my end, and theirs, mutual respect, and responding in kind to the manner in which we treated each other. I earned their trust and respect by my actions, and by being, for lack of a better term, the benevolent leader, provider of all good things, be it attention, affection, food, play, walks, and so on. I didn't yell, hit, jerk, push, or hold a dog down when the dog didn't understand what I wanted. I patiently tried another way to teach the dog, and let it be known how pleased I was when he understood. Dogs will be dogs, and dogs do what dogs do. That's all I had to understand, so the pressure on us both was off. I could no more get angry with a dog peeing in the house or chewing my stuff than I could with a human infant who pulled my eyeglasses off and scratched my face in the process. Neither dog or infant understood. 

It's only been the past few years that I began studying behavior, and various training methods. I had rejected the only method I knew about (way back 35 yrs. ago or more), because it was the yank and jerk on choke chain, and physical force (i.e., pushing a puppy's butt to the floor in order to teach it to sit). My mama taught me that you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, and that holds true when working with dogs, too! Teaching a puppy or untrained adult dog through aversive methods is, at best, unfair, and often worse. When I'm displeased, or if one of my dogs is about to do something I don't want/like, all it sometimes takes is a raised eyebrow to stop the behavior, because they're always very, very aware of me.

I think it was Curb who said something to the effect that sometimes what dogs do is only "wrong" when they live with humans, and it's more important to understand this fact than it is to understand pack theory. I couldn't agree more. 

Curb said:



> It's true, dogs don't hug, but I wonder what they would do if they had arms like ours? Just because they are incapable of hugging, does not mean they are incapable of showing affection in other ways. I've seen doggie pile pretzels, and dogs sharing body contact in ways that look like hugs to me. Was it affection? I dunno, but if being anthropomorphic benefits the dog, I'm fine with calling it hugging.


Dogs don't hug? Poodles do! Standard Poodles are notorious for their standing hugs! And I mean actual hugs - some around the human's waist, some around the neck - with their front legs and paws. Maddy not only hugs standing up, she will respond to the caress of my hand, or my words of endearment by coming close and placing her neck under my chin on my neck and squeezing down with her chin. Sure feels like a hug to me! LOL And then, I get a "kiss!"


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