# naturally docked tails



## angelic00 (Feb 10, 2007)

What breeds of dogs are known to have naturally/born with short/docked tails?


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Pembroke welsh corgies are one of them. Australian Shepherds, too. Dunno about many others..

But occasionally a pup born with a tail will slip though. After people could start docking tails, they didn't care so much about breeding for natural bob tails.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Are ACDs one of them as well?
Okay and this is probably really stupid but I dont know much about Rotties, but are they born with their tails or without? I dont think I've ever seen one with a tail.
Nessa


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

chul3l3ies1126 said:


> Are ACDs one of them as well?
> Okay and this is probably really stupid but I dont know much about Rotties, but are they born with their tails or without? I dont think I've ever seen one with a tail.
> Nessa


Nope, neither of those breeds are naturally tailless  In fact the majority of ACDs aren't docked at all. I believe it's only true working cattle dogs that I've seen with the docked tail.

Rottie with tail:


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Some lines of english shepherds are naturally bob tailed.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Dakota Spirit said:


> Nope, neither of those breeds are naturally tailless  In fact that majority of ACDs aren't docked at all. I believe it's only true working cattle dogs that I've seen with the docked tail.
> 
> Rottie with tail:


OH GOSH! I love them better with their tails!!! HOW CUTE!
Nessa


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## kenRC51 (Mar 7, 2008)

English Bulldogs. The longest tail Ive seen in an english bulldog is about 2 inches long.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Frenchies & Bostons, I believe. 

All that said, ANY breed *can* be born with a short tail. It's not a terribly uncommon genetic defect. A friend of mine growing up had a golden who'd been born with only a partial tail (with a kink in it) and I've known a pointer with the same defect.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Wow, I love the tailed Rottie.  More feathery than I imagined.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Old English Sheepdogs.


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## fyzbo (Jun 19, 2008)

Rat terriers can have a naturally docked tail, or a very short one.


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## eonblue (Jul 30, 2008)

I think Brittany's are naturally docked, but can be long at birth and then docked.


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## K8IE (Apr 28, 2008)

I saw a Dachshund the other day that was born with a naturally short tail. It was crazy, I have never seen that before.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

my friend has a mutt with no tail... sort of... its about an inch long , kinked and has a tuft of fur on the end with no bone in it... it looks bizare.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_bobtail

Domesticated breeds with a natural bobtail

* American Bobtail
* Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog
* French Bulldog
* Pembroke Welsh Corgi
* Braque du Bourbonnais
* Japanese Bobtail
* Manx Cat
* English Bulldog

Breeds in which bobtails are known to occur

* Boxer
* McNabb Border Collie
* Miniature Fox Terrier
* Old English Sheepdog
* Rat Terrier
* Tenterfield Terrier
* Australian Shepherd
* Schipperke


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

apprently there is a min pin breeder in my area that is trying to breed min pins with naturally docked tails. from what I hear the results have been mixed. some had had normal tails, some short versions of tails, and some naturally docked.

It would be nice if the breed standards are calling for docked tails if breeders started trying to select for that more often IMHO.


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## Macky (Feb 12, 2007)

Boston Terriers are born with very short tails which are usually kinked or curled (screwtail)


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Interesting article about Corgis by Leif-Herman Wilberg, which gives some information about their "naturally docked tails".

Bobtail Breeding

From the history of the pembroke corgi we can read about the little bobtail dog that has been bred on Welsh farms through centuries. We know that in the beginning of this century the majority of pembrokes were born with bobtails. 

I believe that the period in the beginning of this century, when the pembroke and the cardigan were registered in the Kennel Club as one breed and were also interbred to a certain extent, is the reason why the bobtails are so few today. When the breeds were separated in 1934, the longtail gene had been introduced to the pembroke population and the breeders docked the puppies that were born with long tails as the standard described a short tail. 

The bobtail gene has proven to be a dominant gene, and it is very easy to loose a dominant gene if you are not aware of the genetic rules. If you want to keep a dominant gene in your population, one of the parents have to carry the gene, otherwise you will loose it. It is easy to understand how the breeders would hold on to their best puppy regardless of it being bobtail or longtail as they were all docked anyway, and how the amount of bobtail dogs in the population gradually could decrease. 

When we got the docking ban in Norway, I am happy to say that most of the corgi breeders in Norway agreed that they wanted to take part in the project of trying to reintroduce the bobtail gene into our corgi population. 

This has been a necessity as our population is so small that we needed to use all our breeding material to keep our breed healthy while introducing the bobtail gene. Although I had bobtails born in my first litter in 1968, and also in a litter in the mid seventies, we were not able to find any dogs of our old lines that could be used when we got the docking ban. 

This meant that we had to import dog from England where Mrs. Peggy Gamble (Blands) and Miss Patsy Hewan (Stormerbanks) had just started a project of reintroducing the bobtail gene to the breed. 

Miss Patsy Hewan at that time run a very large kennel, and over the years she had managed to keep the bobtail gene in her stock. Peggy Gamble bought a bitch from Patsy, Stormerbanks Bobs, and Peter Hopwood (Jofren) used her uncle Stormerbanks Barnaby Bear to introduce bobtails into his line. 

As Patsy Hewan died shortly after they agreed to start the bobtail project, the Blands and Jofren kennels were the ones that carried out the pioneer work, and Stormerbanks Bobs and S. Barnaby Bear will be in the pedigrees of most bobtailed dogs in England, and in Norway. Miss Sarah Taylor (Bymil) and Miss Leila Moore (Kaytop) also had litters containing bobtail puppies sired by Kaytop Ming, but it seems the bobtail puppies have not been used for breeding and that line seems to be lost. 

I know that Peggy Gamble also gave her stud dogs for free to some pet owners with bobtail dogs, but I do not think that they have bred on, at least I do not know of any. 

There are many hypotheses of defects that are supposed to be linked to the bobtail gene. However, as far as I know there has been no serious research into this matter, and the Norwegian corgi breeders were not willing to accept these theories as long as they were not supported by scientific proof. We could not understand why dogs should be so different than other wild animals or even humans, which live and reproduce happily with their short tails. 

We must admit that the first bobtail dogs that were imported to Norway were not of the quality that we were used to, and we had to take a few steps backwards quality wise. This because we had to use our best bobtails even though there might be better longtails available. 

For many years we have done mainly longtail/bobtail matings to try and preserve most of our quality, and have tried to import breeding material and find stud dogs that could help us to improve our quality. It has been a long and difficult process, but the last three or four years I am happy to say that I think the quality has improved very much, and our bobtail corgis has won well at group level, and I myself have won both BIS progeny group and breeders group at big International shows with all bobtails. 

We have not experienced any of the predicted defects to pop up in our breed. It is as sound as it has always been. Some years ago the Norwegian Welsh Corgi Klubb together with Norsk Kennel Klub and the Veterinary institute, made an x-ray study of the spine of a random selection of bobtail dogs from double bobtail matings. 

The conclusion to the study was that there was no indication what so ever to say that the bobtail gene should be responsible for any spinal deformities. 

In nearly every litter we will have puppies with different tail length. Some can be long, some half long and some quite short. We do not know why the bobtails appear with different length, but it is a fact that the tail is the only body structure that will appear with different number of bones, this is also true for the longtails. 

I believe that in the same way as some terrier breeders select for shorter longtails, we can select for shorter bobtails. So far it is difficult to predict the length of tail of our bobtail puppies. I have mated longtail/bobtail and have got puppies with very short tails, and I have mated bobtail/bobtail and have got half long tails. Some of the bobtails, but also the longtails can be seen with a kink on their tail. Our x-ray project also involved some of these dogs, and there was no indication that this would also affect spinal vertebra. So far we do not take any notice of these kinks when breeding, as we have not seen them to cause any problems. 

We have not yet found the dog or bitch that will produce only bobtails. Because not all bobtail puppies from bobtail/bobtail matings are suitable for breeding, the Norwegian Welsh Corgi Klub, together with geneticists from England, The Norwegian Veterinary Institute, and the Norwegian Kennel Klub, some years ago made a project of blood testing our bobtails to try and find the homozygote bobtail through gene research. 

The locus for the tail gene was found, but from our random selection of dogs from bobtail/bobtail matings, the scientists were not able to find a homozygote. Also dead bobtail puppies were tested but even in this selection there were no homozygotes. The scientific conclusion was that the bobtail gene that produces bobtails in Pembroke corgis is a lethal gene. This gives no support to my working theory that the longtail gene was introduced by the interbreeding with cardigans, or explain how the welsh farmers managed to maintain the percentage of bobtail dogs so high, as there is no reason to believe that they knew that one of the parents had to be a bobtail to produce bobtails. 

Even though the scientists find it statistically likely that the bobtail gene is a lethal gen, I think that historic facts gives some support for my theory, and I still hang on to the hope of sometime finding the dog that will only produce bobtails. There is also the possibility that the bobtail gene has undergone changes over the years, and has become a lethal gene even though not being so originally. 

If the conclusion of the scientists is correct, and this is the basis for our present breeding plans, this indicates that the homozygote puppies are absorbed early in the pregnancy and never will be born . The bobtail/bobtail matings will represent no problem to the breeders other than that the litters will statistically be numerically smaller, as statistically one out of four will be absorbed. In stead of expecting three out of four bobtails, with one being homozygote, one can expect two out of three, and all the bobtails will be heterozygote. In our statistic material of number of puppies in bobtail/bobtail litters produced in Norway/Sweden compared to longtail/longtail or longtail/bobtail litters there is no statistic significant decrease in number of puppies. 

This of cause can be explained by the different fertility of different bitch lines, and does not exclude the possibility of the bobtail gene being a lethal gene. Our aim, in time to produce only bobtail pembroke corgis seem to be impossible. There should, however, be no reasons for not doing bobtail/bobtail matings, other than a possible ethical view that one will not produce a litter were there is a possibility that one or maybe two of the puppies will be absorbed in mothers womb, and never come to life. There should be no reason to expect any physical defects resulting from bobtail breeding either bobtail/bobtail, or bobtail/longtail. 

The Scandinavian countries were the first to have the docking ban, and the breeders here have been leading the way in seriously trying to breed the bobtails back into the breed. Over the last ten years many more countries have got the docking ban imposed on them, and many corgi breeders in many of these countries have joined the Scandinavian breeders in their wish to maintain their short tailed corgis. 

In 2004 docking was also banned in Australia that is one of the really influential countries when it comes to corgi breeding. Some breeders have been breeding bobtails there for many years, but like in England the discussion is loud, and many breeders are all against. An extended interest for bobtail breeding in a country like Australia would be of great help to all the bobtail breeders in countries with numerically small corgi populations. Imported bobtails from Australia could help us increase our gene pool to keep our breed healthy with no inbreeding depression, which is a much larger threat to the breed than defects resulting from bobtail breeding. 

Leif-Herman Wilberg
.


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

Macky said:


> Boston Terriers are born with very short tails which are usually kinked or curled (screwtail)


Yes, Gracie has a really short screw tail.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Quincy, I've read that article, and I just don't think it's true. There were soemthing like 50 Cardigans originally registered by the KC when the breeds (Pems and Cardis were nitially combined) and 250 Pems. The vast majority of the frequently used sires were short-tailed themselves. I don't think as many Pems were EVER NBT as people who are great fans of the trait like to think. 

That said, I think it's an AWESOME trait and I wish more people would take it into consideration for breeding, especially in other countries. I do not like the way the dockign ban is changing the rear and outline of Pems- a lot of judges seem to like dogs with a low fox-brush tail like a Cardi, and the Pem's tailset is very different!


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## AmyS88 (Aug 8, 2008)

my chihuahua/feist mix was born tailess!

we think it makes her unique =]

theres not many chihuahua's running around without tails!


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## Quincy (Feb 25, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> Quincy, I've read that article, and I just don't think it's true.


That maybe your opinion and on what you know, but I noted the article was written by the following who appears to have some creditation regarding Corgis.

WILBERG, Mr. Leif Herman 
Sørumsand, NORWAY
Kennel Name: Siggen

One of Norway’s busiest judges, Leif-Herman Wilberg has been associated with dogs for the past 45 years. A Corgi Specialist and Chairman of the Norwegian Welsh Corgi Club. Mr. Wilberg is a member of the General Committee and also Chairman of the Judging & Education Committee of the Norwegian Kennel Club. He has been an FCI Judge for 29 years, awards CC’s in 137 breeds and is licensed to judge Best In Show at All Breed International Shows. He has owned and bred both German Shepherds and Welsh Corgi Pembrokes. Over the years he handled many breeds including Poodles, Boxers, Rottweilers, Dobermann, Whippets, Golden and Labrador Retrievers – all to championships.
Awarded the Norwegian Dog Judges' Society Silver Mark, The Short Tail's Order of The Norwegian Welsh Corgi Club, Norwegian Kennel Klubs Breeders' prize 2002. Fluent in English and German, Mr Wilberg has judged in Australia (Sydney Royal 2000), Belgium, Canada, England, Estonia, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Latvia, Luxembourg, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Scandinavia, Switzerland, and the USA.

My involvement in dogs goes back to 1959 with our first dog, a German Shepherd. We bred and showed German Shepherds for 10 years before we imported our first Pembroke Corgi from England. Our first Corgi ended up as Dog of the Year All breeds in Norway 1968. Out of 250 puppies we have made up 94 homebred national champions, and 21 international champions. Most of our imported dogs have become champions. Since the Norwegian Welsh Corgi Club started the Corgi of the Year competition in 1974, our dogs, either homebred or imports, have won the title 20 times with 13 different dogs. Our most famous dog, Int.Ch. Siggens’s Hi Fi, was Dog of the Year All breeds in Norway in 1983, was the first imported Pembroke ever to win a CC in England. We have bred numerous group and best in show winners. In 2001 we were showing in England for the first time in 20 years, and won the dog CC at Windsor with a homebred bobtail male, Multi Ch Siggen’s Oberon. I have also made up champions in Poodles, Boxers, Rottweilers, Dobermann, Keeshonds, Whippets, Golden Retrievers and Labrador Retrievers. I have held all different committee positions in the Norwegian Welsh Corgi Klub. For ten years I was a member of the general committee of the Norwegian Kennel Klub (NKK). I am chairman of the NKK committee for judging education and examinations, and am the representative for the NKK in the FCI committee for judging education and president of the FCI Show Commission. I have been on the committee of the Norwegian Dog Judges Associations for many years, also chairman for three years. I have been an FCI judge since 1975, and give CC’s in 150 breeds. I have judged at many major shows all over the world.
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