# Gentle Leader Nightmare



## pennybichon (Jun 27, 2008)

I enrolled my bichon puppy in a puppy kindergarten class, and after a couple of weeks, the instructor encouraged me to try a "gentle leader" with my puppy to help with loose leash walking. I tried it - she hated it then, and hates it now. I walked with her with it for several weeks, and she just continued hating it. I have to physically restrain her and force it on. Once it's on, she acts really weird - hardly looking at me, and jerking her head around if I even try to touch her collar or leader. At puppy class, when it was on, she would pout and refuse to do anything, no matter what treat I offered her. I kept using it because she walked so much better with it on. But she started hiding whenever she figured out I might want to take her on a walk. I've resorted to taking her with only her regular leash, but she still hides if she thinks I'm taking her on a walk. Tonight, I was cutting up some hot dog to take as treats for the walk, and she hid. 

I want to take her on walks to get exercise, but I don't know what to do. She hides in her crate, and I know it's a "no-no" to pull her out. I try to tempt her out with a piece of hot dog, but she'll snatch it and then run back into her crate.

My puppy is seriously strong-willed. I know bichons are prone to this, and also get their feelings hurt easily, but there must be a way to train them. 

Please help!


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Maybe you can try alternative methods of teaching her to walk on a leash politely. I don't know how you could make her like the Gentle Leader. However, try this in your backyard. Have her on leash with the leash around your waist (a 6 foot lead is good) so she has enough lead to walk comfortably. Have a high value treat in your hand (on the side you want her to walk on). Start walking and if she pulls, turn around in the opposite direction. Tell her to 'walk nice' and invite her to walk beside you by offering her the treat at the level of her mouth. Don't let her eat it, just hold it at her nose for a few steps and then let her have it. If she pulls again, turn around. Invite her to walk beside you again by luring with the treat. This forces her to pay attention to you but also tells her that she has to follow you. Keep doing this and once she has mastered this in your backyard, move to a sidewalk. Then progress to a busier place. What you want is for her to think you are more interesting than anything else around. But you also want to make it a positive experience.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

It's not unusual for a dog to reject the Gentle Leader at first. It really feels even less natural to them than a collar and leash, so an aversive reaction is expected. In order to avoid this, you need to slowly condition your dog to the GL so she associates it with a positive thing. 

There is a video on this page that will show you how:
http://abrionline.org/videos.php
Scroll down to "Conditioning an emotional response" by Jean Donaldson.

It may take slightly longer since she's already associated the GL with a negative experience in her mind... but it's not impossible.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

There is a reason for the reaction. Both a GL and the Halti are "self correcting". Because there is no input required from the handler to make the correction you have the impression that they are very gentle and humane, when in reality the correction is extreme. That is why they give the impression of working so well on very hard dogs. 
Your dog doesn't like it because it is about ripping her poor little face off! About the only system that is harsher that I know of is a Delmar Lead (pigging string).
Get a harness, not a halter, if a normal collar is a problem.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

blunder said:


> Your dog doesn't like it because it is about ripping her poor little face off!


If it's hurting that much I think it's on wrong. It's not ripping her face off.  I've never used it but I do know it needs to be fitted properly. If it's fitting right, it probably hurts but it's not tearing off anything. I'd have someone who knows how, fit it, then train the dog.


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## Smithcat (Aug 30, 2008)

My wifes uses a Gentle Leader on her guide at times, to keep her "on task". When used properly, they are a great tool. Yeah, Roanna seems to "pout" a bit when it goes on, but she sure shapes up and is not distracted when it is being used.

Guide Dogs for the Blind recommends their use for maintaining control of working guides. And hey, they have been breeding, raising and training working guides for over 60 years, so my guess is that they know more about dogs than most anyone else.


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## Noel Redwood (Jun 20, 2008)

The "Gentle" part is misleading, its gentle on your end of the leash, but not on the dog's end. IMHO, using a GL on a puppy isn't a good idea as it can torque the neck pretty hard and the spine and neck muscles aren't developed in puppies. Also puppies have a lot of energy and jump around a lot. It may be that your pup has experienced pain with the GL and that's why she's running and hiding.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Many dogs react negatively to a gentle leader or anything else that goes across the nose. Just walk her on a regular buckle collar for now.


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## arklady (Aug 9, 2008)

Unfortunately the dog has a negative association with the gentle leader. For the moment, I would stop using it. 

When you first train an animal to accept a collar, or head control device it has to be done postively and in short increments of time. 

I am surprised your instructor didn't teach you all how to train this. 

Watch Jean's video (someone provided a link above) and then play train with another device such as the Halti.

Have a word with your instructor, too. If he or she can't or won't help you I'd find another teacher.

Finally, puppy training is different from training an older dog. It needs to be short and sweet.

Good luck!


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## katthevamp (Aug 7, 2007)

arklady said:


> When you first train an animal to accept a collar, or head control device it has to be done postively and in short increments of time.
> 
> I am surprised your instructor didn't teach you all how to train this.


I'm not. Mine didn't do any acclimation, either. It was put on (Because I wanted to try her on he harness I got for rollerblading. She actually pulled LESS on normal walks, I wanted to see if it would be true in class to. Instead of letting me be stupid, they dedided I should use a gentle leader.) and while there was some praise, Fry was expected to wear it the entire class, and then she acted depressed. If a collar makes them not want to work, it shouldn't be used.


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## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

I don't like Gentle Leaders for a variety of reasons.

Maybe you could try something like the Easy Walk harness. I find it to be quite less severe and far easier to fit. 

http://www.puplife.com/Shop/Control/Product/fp/vpid/3880311/vpcsid/0/SFV/32255

Basically it works by turning the dog back to face you if the dog starts to pull.

Good luck with your little dog.


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## Annamarie (Oct 14, 2007)

I tend to think this has less to do with the gentle leader and more to do with the puppy exercising control over the owner.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

I can't imagine why a bichon puppy would need a gentle leader. My 50 pound dog learned how to walk on a leash with only a flat collar. Your trainer should help you teach your dog to walk on a loose leash without any gimmicky tools. If she can't, find a different trainer.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

personally, i prefer the head collars for my dogs....i have never had to "rip my dogs face off" w/ them and i have no problems w/ walking my dogs w/ them on....my older 3 don't really like it, but they also don't like leashes in general.....my "RainDog" pup has made extreme progress w/ the use of one....i do prefer the Halti to the Gentle Leader however...i think it fits nicer and places better....and i can walk all 5 dogs at the same time w/ their Halti's....


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

tirluc said:


> ....i have never had to "rip my dogs face off" w/ them ....


No, the young dog "rips it's own face off" when it starts thrashing about because it doesn't like having the halter on it's face. The handler doesn't have to do a thing.
Where the fault lies with them is that the handler does not control the correction, the dog does. So if the dog starts fighting the correction, the correction only gets worse. Most dogs will quickly figure out that when they stop, the correction stops, but unfortunately some just keep fighting it.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

I too tried to force Daja to use the GL. She would actually nip me, so I exchanged it for the Easy Walker (thank goodness I still had the packaging and hadn't altered the harness). I am working on getting her want to put it on. My other dogs use a regular harness and walk on them very well. 

Good luck with your baby.


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## klip (Jul 22, 2008)

Apart from whether a GL is a good thing for you to use or not -

I think that it is probably a bad idea to continue using the Gentle Leader because your dog has by now built up such a negative association with it. 
If you wish to continue using it, you will have to start from scratch and get her to associate it with positive things. 

First thing: never force it onto her. She wont learn to accept it that way, or get used to it if you use that method.

First - stop using it for a while.

Then, show it to her again and give her a bunch of treats. Carry on doing this for a couple of days until she respons by relaxing and looking for treats when she sees it. Dont attempt to put it on her.

After a couple of days, hold it so she has to eat the treat through it. Dont put it on her yet. Dont force her. If she wont do it, go back to just giving the treat. Dont worry if she wont do it. If you cant get her to do it at all, rather use a different method of walking her as the others are suggesting.

If you can get her to be comfortable with taking a treat through the GL, rest it gently on her face without fastening it while treating her.

Carry on doing this for a couple of days, until you can easily slip it on with no signs of stress from her.

Then buckle it. and treat her. A day or so more of doing this.

Then clip the leash on and treat her - a day or so more

Then let her walk around trailing the leash while playing a game to keep her attention on you and discourage her from pawing or rubbing her face on the ground.

Through all of this you need to be super calm and gentle. If she shows any sighns of stress with it, go back a step.

This is the way I introduced the Halti - similar to the GL to my dogs. They rub their faces a bit, and arent crazy about it, but they accept it easily.

I'm not sure what to think about the people who say GL's or Haltis are cruel - I'm not convinced either way, frankly.


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## amp9364 (Feb 19, 2007)

We use the gentle leader for our 80 lb berner puppy, it works great! I didn't like the idea of the head halter so we opted for the harness, the leash hooks in front so he can't pull. Good luck!


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

klip said:


> ...After a couple of days, hold it so she has to eat the treat through it. Dont put it on her yet. Dont force her. If she wont do it, go back to just giving the treat. Dont worry if she wont do it. If you cant get her to do it at all, rather use a different method of walking her as the others are suggesting.
> 
> If you can get her to be comfortable with taking a treat through the GL, rest it gently on her face without fastening it while treating her.
> 
> I'm not sure what to think about the people who say GL's or Haltis are cruel - I'm not convinced either way, frankly.


Klip, this what I'm doing to get Daja to accept the Easy Walk harness...it's working...slowly.

I don't think GL's are cruel...*I* made it so awful for Daja , it would take me weeks to get her to accept, if at all. She is horrible on just her collar so I'm trying this halter instead.


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## klip (Jul 22, 2008)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> Klip, this what I'm doing to get Daja to accept the Easy Walk harness...it's working...slowly.
> 
> I don't think GL's are cruel...*I* made it so awful for Daja , it would take me weeks to get her to accept, if at all. She is horrible on just her collar so I'm trying this halter instead.


Hi Alpha - excellent to hear the Easy Walk harness is working so far. I think I used to have one for Anna when she was little, and if its the same thing, I just found it so complicated to put on. It was made of black straps and black rubber and it looked like S&M gear on her. It sort of made her look like a SS puppy  

I dont think that any piece of equipment is so essential that its neccesarily worth going through all the steps I outlined, if another method might serve just as well.

You know, I think what sometimes happens with these things is this: We get so desperate for something to work that we push a little too hard. Whether its waiting several days before actually putting a GL on, or standing silently while a dog figures out what your command meant, or any of the millions of situations where you just have to let things take time - its tough.

What I find works for me is this: Before I start working with the dog on anything, I take a little step back and do some planning. So before I'm in that frustrating situaion, I sit a bit and think. "OK. Rationally now, how long is this going to take." Then I make a firm decision such as - "I am not going to put the dog back in the car for at least another two weeks" to give myself a solid time frame. Its actually a bit arbitrary what that time frame is, as long as you choose it while you are calm and outside of the training situation.

When I am in the heat of the moment, I just think back to my time frame - which I am almost immedeatly tempted to break - and go "OK. Stick to the plan, even if it looks possible to fast forward. That's just an illusion. What was my long term goal again? Oh yes". and also, this is my mantra "Is what I am about to do, setting the dog up for success in the long run? Or am I just reacting to a situation here?"

I think we all fail at this, constantly. I certainly do!


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## dre2142 (Mar 10, 2008)

Gentle Leader "ripping the dogs face off"? Gimme a break. 

If your dogs face is getting "ripped off", its not on properly. There is nothing harsh about the GL if used properly.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

I wish all the posters that are helping get this dog into a gentle leader face thing or a gentle leader harness would look again at what breed we are talking about. This is a Bichon puppy. The first method should be training to walk on a loose lead. It is silly that a small dog like this should require a gentle leader. I think you are doing this owner and her dog a disservice.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I didn't even know they made a Gentle Leader that small.


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## klip (Jul 22, 2008)

MegaMuttMom said:


> I wish all the posters that are helping get this dog into a gentle leader face thing or a gentle leader harness would look again at what breed we are talking about. This is a Bichon puppy. The first method should be training to walk on a loose lead. It is silly that a small dog like this should require a gentle leader. I think you are doing this owner and her dog a disservice.


Very true, MMM. I suppose I was responding more to Alpha's problem, and just the general issue of how to introduce a GL to a dog, and not intending my post to be urging the OP to carry on using the GL. In fact I think I said (or I intended to say) that regardless of the size of the OP's dog, it sounds like they should not continue with the GL in any case as the dog has built up such a bad association with it.

In combination with the size of the dog, I agree, there are better solutions.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

yeah I cannot imagine that controlling a Bichon puppy is that difficult that one would need a gentle leader on her. A little patience and time spent training in a buckle collar should do the trick.  I know that the gentle leaders work well for some dogs. I for one am NOT a fan of them.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

MegaMuttMom said:


> I wish all the posters that are helping get this dog into a gentle leader face thing or a gentle leader harness would look again at what breed we are talking about. This is a Bichon puppy. The first method should be training to walk on a loose lead. It is silly that a small dog like this should require a gentle leader. I think you are doing this owner and her dog a disservice.





Inga said:


> yeah I cannot imagine that controlling a Bichon puppy is that difficult that one would need a gentle leader on her. A little patience and time spent training in a buckle collar should do the trick.  I know that the gentle leaders work well for some dogs. I for one am NOT a fan of them.


Further, I think that goes for any puppy. I would think aversive controlling devices with the potential to actually hurt your dog, such as a gentle leader, are more like last-resorts when you have a dog you absolutely can't get control of, and then only as a training aid with the goal being loose lead walking on a flat collar.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

"Gentle Leader "ripping the dogs face off"? Gimme a break."

It is not the fit, it is the dogs reaction that causes what I am talking about. The more they fight it, the more it hurts. If the dog doesn't fight it, no problem.
Small dogs have a tendency to bounce around like a rubber ball, not a good idea to attach a lead to the end of their nose when they behave like that.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Shaina said:


> Further, I think that goes for any puppy. I would think aversive controlling devices with the potential to actually hurt your dog, such as a gentle leader, are more like last-resorts when you have a dog you absolutely can't get control of, and then only as a training aid with the goal being loose lead walking on a flat collar.


It mind boggles me, this is a *puppy* a flat buckle collar or a properly adjusted martingale collar and a lead. Walk slowly, 1st day 30 ft baby steps if you want. Next day 50 ft baby steps. Do not worry about puppy tantrums. It's not as if you're tying her to the bumper of a car and driving down the road with dog running behind. By using a flat buckle collar you can just leave the collar on and that eliminates all collar fighting. You outweigh this dog if you ignore her and go for walk you walk 4 ft and stand still she wants to fight lead let her. 30 seconds later walk 4 more ft. etc etc etc etc. Sometimes we make such a big deal out of stuff we set it back 2 yrs. When a child has a tantrum if it works the child is adjusting you. Remember one thing this is what I would do and I am old school trainer. This may not fit with what you want or have the ability to try. It's just out here as an option.


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