# Pup is HW+, Rescue didn't tell me .. What now!?



## sarahlynn

I adopted a 2 year old male shepherd/chow mix (Greggy) last night from a local rescue. He was pulled from a local high-kill shelter on 12/3. The rescue did not provide me with his medical records until after I signed the contract. When I asked of any medical issues in the many emails we exchanged prior to my commitment, the only thing they told me about was a very mild case of kennel cough, which is not listed anywhere in the records I was provided.

I feel like it's not that the rescue didn't know the animal was HW+, because the information was right there in the records they provided (and gave to me after the fact). They just didn't tell me. They did send me off with a hollistic preventative (Paratox?), but I didn't attribute that to meaning the animal was HW+ at the time. Preventative is preventative, I give it to my husky and he isn't HW+. Heartworms should absolutely be disclosed to a potential adopter.

Adopting an animal IS a big commitment, but adopting a HW+ animal can be an even bigger one. Right off, I know I am in no financial position to be able to take care of any high-cost heartworm treatment, treatment that I am told is very costly ($500+). I'm also told slow-kill treatment like Heartgard can be used?

I honestly am not sure what to do, because I have never had an animal with heartworms before, so I have no idea what to expect for myself or this little guy.

A couple of other things that got under my skin with this rescue. The shelter did not neuter him because of "health reasons," as stated in hid records. However, the rescue went ahead and did it anyways. They also stated that the dog was great with other dogs, cats, children, etc. However, as soon as he sees my husky, even if he is on the complete opposite end of the room, teeth are glaring and lips are curled. My husky bows and backs off, but Greggy is very persistent, and actually goes after him. I'm not sure if that could be contributed to the confusion, fear, and maybe even pain from heartworms? I don't know, but it is hopefully something I can work with.

I went ahead and scheduled an appointment with my private vet for next week. Hopefully, treatment options are not as costly as the extreme $500+, and hopefully the behavioral issue is something that I can effectively curb. I'm just really upset that not all of his information was disclosed to me because surely, I am not prepared for this, short-term or long-term.


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## PatriciafromCO

I'd be calling the rescue,, and have the rescue responsible for footing the Bill of HW treatment they should have a network of vets they work with. The whole deal of going to a rescue is (because they care so much for the animals, are dedicated to the animals to want the right things for them long term) that you could return the dogs if the dog is not the right fit or am not prepared to deal with the HW treatment. ... That your cost either be returned or retained towards another adoption of your choice


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## Shell

I would contact the rescue and ask about the heartworm positive issue. Discuss them covering the vet bills for a medical issue they knew he had existing before he was adopted out. Them sending him out with a holistic preventative and not disclosing his HW+ status though doesn't look good in their favor (note: holistic meds may work fine, but that should be the decision of the new owner and the dog's full medical history as far as it is known to the rescue should be disclosed). It is totally possible though depending on the shelter and the time frame and the rescue that the vet records did not catch up with the dog until he was adopted out to you. Organization (paperwork and such) among shelters and rescues varies widely. It may not at all be intentional but more an oversight.

Talk to your vet about treatment options. I believe that it really depends a lot on the stage the dog is in. Slow kill may be an affordable option.

The shelter not neutering him for "health reasons" could be anything from a legit concern (like the heartworms), to something minor like the kennel cough, to a complete cop-out by the shelter so that someone else would pay for neutering. The vet records would be key I think.

As far as interaction with your dog, well, it could be anything. Many dogs will be stressed and confrontational leaving the shelter and being tossed into a new home. I like a modified version of the "two week shut-down" where the new dog is kept in a quiet and relaxed area without being expected to interact with my dog or with many new people, taken for walks in a quiet neighborhood and spends time bonding with me before I introduce the dogs outside by having a friend come walk one of the dogs and briskly walking them together before allowing them to meet inside the house.


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## sarahlynn

Shell said:


> I would contact the rescue and ask about the heartworm positive issue. Discuss them covering the vet bills for a medical issue they knew he had existing before he was adopted out. Them sending him out with a holistic preventative and not disclosing his HW+ status though doesn't look good in their favor (note: holistic meds may work fine, but that should be the decision of the new owner and the dog's full medical history as far as it is known to the rescue should be disclosed). It is totally possible though depending on the shelter and the time frame and the rescue that the vet records did not catch up with the dog until he was adopted out to you. Organization (paperwork and such) among shelters and rescues varies widely. It may not at all be intentional but more an oversight.


I have contacted them, and they claim to have not known he was heartworm positive. Which is absolutely insane, because the paperwork they gave to me from the exams done at the shelter he was pulled from, has all the information on it! Even still, if a person inquires about adopting a dog, I feel that it is the rescue's duty to pull any information they have on the dog and let the applicant decide if that animal will be a right fit for the home. They can't possibly be placing animals in appropriate homes if they aren't disclosing such information.



Shell said:


> The shelter not neutering him for "health reasons" could be anything from a legit concern (like the heartworms), to something minor like the kennel cough, to a complete cop-out by the shelter so that someone else would pay for neutering. The vet records would be key I think.


The shelter he was pulled from didn't neuter him, but the rescue did. The dog was only at the rescue for 6 days. What could have changed in those 6 days that the dog went from being unable to be neutered for health reasons, to healthy enough to be neutered?



Shell said:


> As far as interaction with your dog, well, it could be anything. Many dogs will be stressed and confrontational leaving the shelter and being tossed into a new home. I like a modified version of the "two week shut-down" where the new dog is kept in a quiet and relaxed area without being expected to interact with my dog or with many new people, taken for walks in a quiet neighborhood and spends time bonding with me before I introduce the dogs outside by having a friend come walk one of the dogs and briskly walking them together before allowing them to meet inside the house.


I will definitely be taking this approach as well. I imagine the poor guy is stressed, confused, scared. I don't hold the anger against him too much, but behavior like any bad habit, can be worked with to prevent. I'll be doing the walks every night to see how that goes for a while. Slow progression seems best for everyone. I don't want to overwhelm either of the dogs.


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## Shell

> The shelter he was pulled from didn't neuter him, but the rescue did. The dog was only at the rescue for 6 days. What could have changed in those 6 days that the dog went from being unable to be neutered for health reasons, to healthy enough to be neutered?


He could have healed up from kennel cough, the shelter vet and the rescue's vet could have different opinions on an acceptable level of risk to neuter, he could have been a cryptorchid which some shelter/low cost vets won't operate on, or it could be BS overall. If he is healthy now, aside from the heartworm, then he obviously came through the surgery with no problems and it isn't anything much to worry about now. The heartworm positive thing could be it since I don't know the protocol for operating a non-emergency surgery on a HW+ dog. Maybe some vets will and some vets won't.


Definitely take everything slowly. It sounds like he has been through a LOT in the past few weeks so you don't want to cause further stress. Keep the exercise low-key until you check with your vet about his HW level.


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## sarahlynn

Thank you for the helpful information! He seems to be doing good in terms of health, and I scheduled him for a vet visit on the 19th to see where he is with the heartworms, since all I have is that he is positive. His first walk with my other dog yesterday was a successful one, so I am very optimistic that all he needs is time to adjust. The shelter said he was kenneled with another dog, ate near the other dog, and never had any issues at all, even during yard play. Max (my other dog) is bigger than him, so maybe that's why he was aggressive? I don't know. He did actually come face to face with Max inside the house, by accident they got loose together, and he just ran around Max and then went about his own business. I didn't force them together after that though.

I like your slow approach to introducing them and will continue doing the walks with him and my other dog.


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## Shell

sarahlynn said:


> Max (my other dog) is bigger than him, so maybe that's why he was aggressive? I don't know. He did actually come face to face with Max inside the house, by accident they got loose together, and he just ran around Max and then went about his own business.


this is a good sign IMO. Sometimes (maybe even often?) a dog shows aggression out of fear or uncertainty rather than innate aggressive tendencies. A new, large, male dog can be an intimidating thing to a newcomer male dog. If the newbie chose to run around Max and not start anything, that's a good start at least. 

I listen to the information given by a previous foster or owner about a dog, but I also treat a dog as something of a blank slate. I mean, if the shelter says the dog is dog aggressive then I will take precautions of course, but I won't think that is the only way the dog can be. If the shelter says the dog is totally friendly, I'll think that is hopeful but I won't give the dog free run with my dog or trust her right off the bat either. 
My current foster was supposedly somewhat dog aggressive. She totally adores my dog, they play wonderfully, she doesn't care about seeing other dogs on walks (not up close of course, just in yards and such), and has walked nicely with a few other dogs. My guess is that the "dog aggression" may have been prey drive or resource guarding which are different when it comes to training and handling.


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## sarahlynn

I am very optimistic about the outcome of taking the slow approach, especially since the rescue said he never showed any signs of aggression. It's just hard to grasp why he's showing aggression all of a sudden though. It's ironic because the new dog whines when he sees the husky from afar, but then curls his lips when they're face-to-face. Any ideas on that?

So far, the walks have been going well though and I will definitely keep it up. Each day seems to be getting a little (very little) better.


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## Shell

Have a look at the links in this thread, especially ones on dog body language and signals and the general training links like dogstardaily. The thread was highlighting training for reactive dogs but some of the same thing apply when a dog is maybe a little fear aggressive of another larger dog or new dog.

Face-to-face can be a tough thing for some dogs with new dogs, especially newer dogs that are larger than them. They feel safe walking with the other dog but the confrontational feeling of face-to-face can be overwhelming until they know if they can trust the other dog.


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## sarahlynn

I thought I would chime in an update. Walking has done absolutely nothing.

Tonight, I witnessed Greggy (the rescue) attack Max (my husky) in a manner that I pray never happens again. Greggy doesn't act aggressively out of defense (such as if Max approaches him), he literally just approaches and lunges for Max the moment he sees him. Tonight, the dogs accidentally wound up in the same room (an empty room with nothing of either dogs' things in sight) together and after a milisecond of growling, Greggy lunged for Max's neck and wouldn't let go. We tried to grab each dog by the hind legs to pull them away, but Greggy's aggression was so out of control there was absolutely no way of us separating the dogs safely without potentially compromising ourselves. For a split second, Greggy released Max's neck and we were able to separate them. Now, I have a husky with minor, bleeding wounds.

I never thought I'd see a 35lb dog pin a 50lb husky to the ground .. until tonight.

To me, this isn't fear. Fear reactions are not instant. Fear doesn't make something approach the thing they are fearful of, unless that approaches first. I"m upset. I'm upset because I adore both Greggy and Max. I am upset that I have to keep them separated, and in doing so, I am depriving Max (because he doesn't have any separation anxiety) of the attention he's always had from me. I'm upset because it is obvious to me now, that Greggy's behavior is absolutely NOT new.

Most importantly, I am upset because a proper temperament evaluation was not done prior to adopting Greggy out, and when I asked about it weeks ago when I first saw this aggression, the rescue said the reason for this not being done was "we are a small rescue."

I don't know what to do, but this cannot continue any longer. Max could be in his kennel, and Greggy will run towards the kennel, lip curled and viciously snarling at Max. Any advice, would be excellent. Desperately praying for useful advice because after what I just witnessed, a part of me wishes Max would've fought back in hopes of putting Greggy in his rightful place on the alpha scale, right underneath Max.


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## PatriciafromCO

very sorry for your situation.. I wanted to ask when Greggy runs towards Max in his kennel can you redirect him verbally before he gets there ? What level of priority does Greggy give you? Having a multiple pet house hold is each individual as if they were only dog with you that is the way I think of it for my crew and how my crew as individuals look towards me they only thinking about themselves and me. That is the expectation for each of my dogs when I work with them and they live in my home. They don't have to like each other, but things like "no touching" and "watch your space" "don't look" "wait your turn" manners not only to you, but your dogs should learn manners to each other. If no one is looking for a fight then no one is reacting to one another. I know you just got Greggy, and you have to start where you are right now with what Greggy comes with. If Greggy can't accomplish things then your start would be to control the environment so the environment teaches him boundaries first so he accomplishes that task every time and learns every time how to accomplish it while you have the advantage of the environment controlling Greggy's choices so you can introduce cues, commands, schedules. I use a baby gate for many hands free training,, "happy containment" "boundaries by touching the walls drawling an invisible line with my finger where the baby gate is touching and saying wait, or stay so in the future when there is no baby gate I can just draw an invisible line in the air with my finger and it works anywhere.. even my horses and llamas easily picked it up if I make a line in the dirt lol lol lol ... I teach "wait" " Stay" and the baby gate does all the work for me to start the learning process because there is a visual and physical boundary that does the work. ... So what if Greggy doesn't like Max,, that is not going to be your most successful option to start.. Max being Greggy's priority that you can work with by stopping the opportunity and turn the tables that you are Greggy's only priority having that individual time to work with Greggy without Max, making Greggy your helper waiting his turn so you can work with Max or spend time with Max... Chaos never feels good to have to deal with. But you do have the ability to take control of the opportunity that allows chaos turn it around so the only opportunities allowed are productive ones that the dogs can learn by doing them. Takes time but you do it everyday they learn from doing it the right way.


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## Shell

sarahlynn said:


> I thought I would chime in an update. Walking has done absolutely nothing.
> 
> Tonight, I witnessed Greggy (the rescue) attack Max (my husky) in a manner that I pray never happens again. Greggy doesn't act aggressively out of defense (such as if Max approaches him), he literally just approaches and lunges for Max the moment he sees him. Tonight, the dogs accidentally wound up in the same room (an empty room with nothing of either dogs' things in sight) together and after a milisecond of growling, Greggy lunged for Max's neck and wouldn't let go. We tried to grab each dog by the hind legs to pull them away, but Greggy's aggression was so out of control there was absolutely no way of us separating the dogs safely without potentially compromising ourselves. For a split second, Greggy released Max's neck and we were able to separate them. Now, I have a husky with minor, bleeding wounds.
> 
> I never thought I'd see a 35lb dog pin a 50lb husky to the ground .. until tonight.
> 
> To me, this isn't fear. Fear reactions are not instant. Fear doesn't make something approach the thing they are fearful of, unless that approaches first. I"m upset. I'm upset because I adore both Greggy and Max. I am upset that I have to keep them separated, and in doing so, I am depriving Max (because he doesn't have any separation anxiety) of the attention he's always had from me. I'm upset because it is obvious to me now, that Greggy's behavior is absolutely NOT new.
> 
> Most importantly, I am upset because a proper temperament evaluation was not done prior to adopting Greggy out, and when I asked about it weeks ago when I first saw this aggression, the rescue said the reason for this not being done was "we are a small rescue."
> 
> I don't know what to do, but this cannot continue any longer. Max could be in his kennel, and Greggy will run towards the kennel, lip curled and viciously snarling at Max. Any advice, would be excellent. Desperately praying for useful advice because after what I just witnessed, a part of me wishes Max would've fought back in hopes of putting Greggy in his rightful place on the alpha scale, right underneath Max.


You should probably be glad that Max didn't fight back because it could easily have made the fight far more dangerous for you to separate them and the damage to the dogs worse. There isn't a "rightful" place for Greggy vs Max; their interaction with each other is what it is, not what the human wants it to be based on which dog was there first. 

Your description of Greggy's lunging and attacking is sounding like straight up dog aggression. Dog aggression like that is mainly then about management of the dogs because you can't really train it away. The more severe the DA, the more diligent you have to be about keeping the dogs 100% separated. I'd say that a dog like Greggy needs to be an only dog. 

I know that people do crate and rotate for the life of their dogs, but usually that's when they already have more than one dog and a dog develops dog aggression over time. They don't want to give up a long time pet, so they make it work. But adopting a dog and having that massive burden right from the start is different and personally, I don't think I could or would do it.


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## sarahlynn

PatriciafromCO said:


> very sorry for your situation.. I wanted to ask when Greggy runs towards Max in his kennel can you redirect him verbally before he gets there ? What level of priority does Greggy give you?


When this happened, there was no way of redirecting Greggy verbally. He was dead set on Max.



Shell said:


> You should probably be glad that Max didn't fight back because it could easily have made the fight far more dangerous for you to separate them and the damage to the dogs worse. There isn't a "rightful" place for Greggy vs Max; their interaction with each other is what it is, not what the human wants it to be based on which dog was there first.
> 
> Your description of Greggy's lunging and attacking is sounding like straight up dog aggression. Dog aggression like that is mainly then about management of the dogs because you can't really train it away. The more severe the DA, the more diligent you have to be about keeping the dogs 100% separated. I'd say that a dog like Greggy needs to be an only dog.
> 
> I know that people do crate and rotate for the life of their dogs, but usually that's when they already have more than one dog and a dog develops dog aggression over time. They don't want to give up a long time pet, so they make it work. But adopting a dog and having that massive burden right from the start is different and personally, I don't think I could or would do it.


You are definitely right. I too, am thankful that Max didn't fight back. I have never seen Max fight, and I pray I never have to. He is very tolerant unless the instigation gets to an extreme. It was last night, but Max was pinned to the ground with Greggy on his neck. Crates and rotating is not the life either dog deserves to have. They are both wonderful, but I definitely agree that Greggy needs to be in a home where he is the only dog.

The rescue is hellbent on Greggy only acting this way because he is scared. This aggression runs much deeper than fear though, and walks alone will not solve this. I don't know if there is a way to get Greggy to understand that Max is part of our "pack" or if this type of aggression truly is something that cannot be fixed. It's only been 2 weeks, but a rotating life is not acceptable for either dog.


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## Shell

sarahlynn said:


> When this happened, there was no way of redirecting Greggy verbally. He was dead set on Max.
> 
> You are definitely right. I too, am thankful that Max didn't fight back. I have never seen Max fight, and I pray I never have to. He is very tolerant unless the instigation gets to an extreme. It was last night, but Max was pinned to the ground with Greggy on his neck. Crates and rotating is not the life either dog deserves to have. They are both wonderful, but I definitely agree that Greggy needs to be in a home where he is the only dog.
> 
> The rescue is hellbent on Greggy only acting this way because he is scared. This aggression runs much deeper than fear though, and walks alone will not solve this. I don't know if there is a way to get Greggy to understand that Max is part of our "pack" or if this type of aggression truly is something that cannot be fixed. It's only been 2 weeks, but a rotating life is not acceptable for either dog.



Given the other issues you've had in dealing with this rescue, it doesn't seem like they are the best ones to judge Greggy's temperament. Chows are known to have a tendency towards dog aggression. Both dogs being male could be upping the DA.

I've fostered dogs with selective dog aggression or specific triggers (barrier aggression, redirection and such) and some aggression can be fairly easily managed in a multi-dog household. But considering how bad things already are for you, I think Greggy needs a real behavioral assessment AND a thorough vet examination including thyroid panel. The assessment could help see if his aggression is overall DA or specific to Max and the vet check could rule out (or in) medical causes of aggression. 

I don't see how Greggy going after Max when Max is crated could be due to fear. Normally I'd suggest returning Greggy to the rescue so he could be adopted out as an only dog, but the tough thing here is that it sounds like the rescue is refusing to see some serious potential problems and may just adopt him out to another unsuspecting home saying he is "good with dogs and cats etc" 
The rescue might not have seen his aggression in the ~10 they had him originally, but now that they know about it, they should be dealing with it. There are people who are quite happy to only have one dog in their home and for them, dog aggression may not really be an issue. It is IMO harder to find homes for DA dogs but not impossible by any means either. 

It is also possible that Greggy would be okay with a female dog or a smaller dog. Which is one thing that can trip up rescues when placing a dog-- there was a potential foster that the rescue brought by my house to test with my dog and she'd been living with several other dogs and doing great with them, so we had her figured as "dog friendly" but when she met my much larger dog, she was very aggressive towards him. So I didn't foster her of course but it told us something very important about her that we hadn't known before. Similarly, since my dog is so good with some of the mildly or situationally aggressive dogs, we make sure to test my fosters around at least 1 other male and 1 other female dog to see if they are truly dog friendly or if it is just the "Chester effect"


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## PatriciafromCO

sarahlynn your words in the situation are very truthful of being defeated.. you are depending soley on the dog to make better choices on his own. And that isn't fair for the dog.. rotation doesn't mean a life time it's a chance to learn from doing the right choices. It does totally depend on your ability to focus and a commitment towards end results.. If Greggy is just too much for you to work with defiantly return him at this point and save everyone long term experiences. I never put dogs together coming into my home there is always a separation / rotation/ individual schedule and one on one time with animals I am training who have known issues, of if I am just baby sitting or even my own new puppy, kitten or livestock. Everyone goes through a transition month first getting them ready to be a member of the group. and if they not ready after a month then we continue individual training until they are ready. Again if it's not what you signed up for you have the right with no guilt to return Greggy for being the right thing to do for all parties involved.


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## sarahlynn

Shell said:


> Given the other issues you've had in dealing with this rescue, it doesn't seem like they are the best ones to judge Greggy's temperament. Chows are known to have a tendency towards dog aggression. Both dogs being male could be upping the DA.


The biggest issue I have with the rescue and Greggy's temperament was that they said they never did any sort of evaluation because they "are a small rescue." However, when I picked Greggy up from the rescue, which was located at the home of one of the staff members, they had plenty of dogs in their kennel where some type of evaluation could have been performed to determine how their dogs perform with other dogs of all sizes, male and female. Of course, I completely understand that it is possible that maybe Greggy is just aggressive with Max - not only is Max twice his size, but a male also.



Shell said:


> .. I think Greggy needs a real behavioral assessment AND a thorough vet examination including thyroid panel. The assessment could help see if his aggression is overall DA or specific to Max and the vet check could rule out (or in) medical causes of aggression.


I'll check his most recent vet records provided by the rescue, but I don't think a thyroid panel was ever performed - at least that I remember seeing in the documents. Thank you for the suggestion! Any idea how much a behavioral assessment may be and is this done with the vet as well? Was not expecting something like this to happen, but Greggy deserves a chance.



Shell said:


> I don't see how Greggy going after Max when Max is crated could be due to fear. Normally I'd suggest returning Greggy to the rescue so he could be adopted out as an only dog, but the tough thing here is that it sounds like the rescue is refusing to see some serious potential problems and may just adopt him out to another unsuspecting home saying he is "good with dogs and cats etc"


Bringing him back to the rescue would be my last resort for that reason. If they're a small rescue, shouldn't they have fewer dogs to be able to devote time to working with the ones they do have instead of just pulling them out of shelters just to push them back onto the "market" so to speak? I truly just don't know how it went overlooked with the amount of dogs and animals they have.



Shell said:


> The rescue might not have seen his aggression in the ~10 they had him originally, but now that they know about it, they should be dealing with it.


What can they do? When I told them about the aggression weeks ago, their only response to me as "we'd be more than happy to take Greggy back." I thought that was a very poor response to a serious concern.



Shell said:


> It is also possible that Greggy would be okay with a female dog or a smaller dog. Which is one thing that can trip up rescues when placing a dog-- there was a potential foster that the rescue brought by my house to test with my dog and she'd been living with several other dogs and doing great with them, so we had her figured as "dog friendly" but when she met my much larger dog, she was very aggressive towards him. So I didn't foster her of course but it told us something very important about her that we hadn't known before. Similarly, since my dog is so good with some of the mildly or situationally aggressive dogs, we make sure to test my fosters around at least 1 other male and 1 other female dog to see if they are truly dog friendly or if it is just the "Chester effect"


I completely follow you. I wish I knew more about Greggy's interactions prior to me having him, but I do not. On walks, Greggy exerts great curiously in other dogs, but I never let him get close enough for it to escalate. It's not a risk I am willing to take. Unfortunately I don't know anyone with a dog Max's size that I could see how Greggy reacts.

Tough, tough situation.


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## sarahlynn

PatriciafromCO said:


> sarahlynn your words in the situation are very truthful of being defeated.. you are depending soley on the dog to make better choices on his own. And that isn't fair for the dog.. rotation doesn't mean a life time it's a chance to learn from doing the right choices. It does totally depend on your ability to focus and a commitment towards end results.. If Greggy is just too much for you to work with defiantly return him at this point and save everyone long term experiences. I never put dogs together coming into my home there is always a separation / rotation/ individual schedule and one on one time with animals I am training who have known issues, of if I am just baby sitting or even my own new puppy, kitten or livestock. Everyone goes through a transition month first getting them ready to be a member of the group. and if they not ready after a month then we continue individual training until they are ready. Again if it's not what you signed up for you have the right with no guilt to return Greggy for being the right thing to do for all parties involved.


In a sense, I do feel defeated. I have turned to the rescue for help, and their only suggestion was to bring him back, or take the dogs on daily walks together because that is how they bond. Walks are not working, and I don't want Greggy to go back. I don't know what else I can try on my own that may possibly help Greggy bond. We have only had Greggy for 2 weeks, and I totally agree that he has not even really had a chance. However, if the issue is purely dog-dog aggression, I don't see it being something that can be corrected to be honest. I mean, this is some deep aggression. Right now, we are separating and rotating - but what exactly does that do to teach Greggy what's right? I'm lost because the only suggestion so far is a behavioral assessment, and depending on the cost, I may not be able to afford it.

I literally just don't know what to do to help Greggy.


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## Shell

> I'll check his most recent vet records provided by the rescue, but I don't think a thyroid panel was ever performed - at least that I remember seeing in the documents. Thank you for the suggestion! Any idea how much a behavioral assessment may be and is this done with the vet as well? Was not expecting something like this to happen, but Greggy deserves a chance.


The cost would be dependent on where you are located really. A vet might be able to do a supervised meet and greet if they happen to have one of their own dogs available, but I wouldn't be expecting a vet to do behavioral assessments. Around here, I know a good trainer that has dealt with a lot of aggressive, fearful, etc dogs and it would run about $100 for a private consultation. She'd look at things like how the two dogs interact in your home, on a walk, look at their body language, possibly bring one of her own very stable dogs along to watch Greggy's behavior towards another dog and then talk with you about potential training options and anything she's observed about him that could be helpful in working with Greggy.



> What can they do? When I told them about the aggression weeks ago, their only response to me as "we'd be more than happy to take Greggy back." I thought that was a very poor response to a serious concern.


By "dealing with it" I just meant taking it seriously and not dismissing it as fear. Dealing with it might mean connecting you with training resources (I don't mean paying for it, I just mean giving guidance to local options) or working to place him as a single dog while having you act as a foster for him. 



> However, when I picked Greggy up from the rescue, which was located at the home of one of the staff members, they had plenty of dogs in their kennel where some type of evaluation could have been performed to determine how their dogs perform with other dogs of all sizes, male and female.


Hmm, this brings up an interesting thought. When you said "rescue" I assumed it was a foster home based rescue where the dogs live in a home with maybe other dogs, maybe not but as a member of the household basically. Living like that allows a dog to decompress from the stress of a shelter and to show more of their real personality. By interacting with different dogs and people in different "real life" situations, it gives a lot fuller picture of a dog's traits. Some dogs shut down so much in a shelter kennel that they don't show aggression and some dogs do the exact opposite. 
If the rescue was kenneling the dogs and basically operating like a shelter (in physical sense) and if they were overcrowded too, it may have just added to the shelter stress rather than being a place for Greggy to begin to relax. 

Since Greggy hasn't been with you long at all, he still hasn't really gotten over the shelter+ rescue kennels so to speak. Consulting with a good trainer and setting up a management plan to keep the dogs separate and then potentially SLOWLY reintroducing them may be a good course of action for now. 

I'd also suggest reading up on the debunking of "pack theory" and alpha/dominance stuff. Crantastic has some very good links if you search her name + dominance theory.


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## sarahlynn

Thanks for the excellent information. I'll see if our vet has any suggestions for a trainer. The rescue wasn't able to provide resources, literally only offered to take him back. What are some ways of slowly reintroducing them? We've been keeping the two of them separated so far, and the only reason the fight broke out was because I came inside from a walk with Greggy and accidentally came in through the front door where Max was. In 2 weeks, they've really only encountered each other twice except for the walks (we walk them on opposite sides of the street). Funny thing about the walks, is that Greggy whines when he sees Max from afar. It's the face-to-face scenarios where the aggression is exhibited.


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## PatriciafromCO

You do the one thing you can do right now and teach them that. control the environment yes it is only management of the situation but it's 100% stopping the chaos keeping Greggy from making the wrong choices, and it keeps all of yall safe.
How does it help... it gives you time to work with Greggy (that he learns skills with you without those skills being tested to fail before they are set to be reliable) , it gives Greggy time to feel safe in his new home with Max and you. As you said you are not Greggy's priority over Max and two weeks is not enough time to establish it. And will not be established between you and Greggy as so long as the opportunity to negatively interact and focus with Max is available to Greggy.

It's great you want to make the commitment for Greggy , you need that to even try to work though it. A dog that is intent to tear into another dog can learn to respond to a command just like sit.. it doesn't mean they will ever like the other dog.. But they can follow the house hold rules of a group, and you will always make special arrangements not to set them up for more they can handle. always placing them in the best environment and continue to teach them skills and rewards. I know because I purchase a bitch fighter (not knowing it before I flew her across the states to me lol ) but she was able to go to shows, and she was able to have group time in my home in my presences , even able to learn to do group games and task.. The moment she thought I wasn't there she would get up from quiet time and trot right over to my other female and try to tower over her lol ... I was doing dishes at the sink and there was a opening into the family room that I saw her clearly... And it got to be a habit for me to say... "Chesca,,,,, I can see you" and she turn all happy with her self to look at me and trot back to her spot to lay down.... 

So maybe life will never be absolutely perfect and trouble free... That you will always have to be aware and make special arrangements and for a special needs in particular events or situations for them... My experence is there is always something the dogs can do no matter how many things they can't do..


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## sarahlynn

PatriciafromCO said:


> You do the one thing you can do right now and teach them that. control the environment yes it is only management of the situation but it's 100% stopping the chaos keeping Greggy from making the wrong choices, and it keeps all of yall safe.
> How does it help... it gives you time to work with Greggy (that he learns skills with you without those skills being tested to fail before they are set to be reliable) , it gives Greggy time to feel safe in his new home with Max and you. As you said you are not Greggy's priority over Max and two weeks is not enough time to establish it. And will not be established between you and Greggy as so long as the opportunity to negatively interact and focus with Max is available to Greggy.


Great information, thank you so much! I do want to continue to work with Greggy, and I suppose my mistake is jumping the gun and expecting that Greggy would trust me by now. These past 2 weeks have felt like 2 months with the chaos of the holidays + new dog. I'll do just same basic training exercises with him and continue our daily walks. Panicking is usually what I do when something happens that disrupts the typical quiet days.

Greggy and Max have been separated the entire time. The chaos erupted last night because I accidentally took Greggy through the front door of our house where Max was, forgetting that Max was not yet in the backyard. I guess my fear with keeping them separated for X amount of time, is that Greggy will have a hard time understanding that our house is Max's house too. Max and Greggy don't ever have to like each other, but I do want Greggy to learn to live quietly with him.


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## Shell

You might be able to find a reasonably priced trainer via a local humane society or a larger nearby rescue group. My local humane society has a dog training "hotline" basically to point people towards resources. Some trainers will offer discounted prices for newly adopted dogs. For example, there is a group near me that isn't a rescue per se but more an educational and resource group for bully breed dogs and owners. They offer training classes as a very very discounted price to any pit/mix but also are welcoming to other breeds at a slightly higher price that is considered a donation. They network with local trainers to assist people having difficulty with their dogs, especially for things like dog aggression and other common problems. 

The harder part may be figuring out what trainer is suitable and qualified. 

I think that being able to SEE the dogs in person is very important to judging what training may or may not be able to do.


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## sarahlynn

Over the past week I have contacted the rescue and my vet to see if they can provide any recommendations on reasonably priced behaviorists. The rescue has flat out ignored me. My vet recommended a guy that told me flat out that dog-dog aggression like Greggy's cannot be fixed and if I wanted to try, ot is $250 per week for however many visits we need. I searched the web as well and found a woman whose initial in-home consult was only $80. I think I'll give it a whirl, but I am still skeptical of this entire situation.

Over the past week, I've taken Greggy on more walks so that I could observe his behavior more towards dogs we see being walked too. He doesn't mind them. He'll whine at first, but a simple, gentle "Come on" keeps him moving forward and focused on his walk again.

We also tried to see what would happen if we put Greggy in his kennel and let Max run around the house. We put Greggy in his kennel, let Max loose in the area of the house where Greggy normally is, and then I sat in front of Greggy's kennel with treats in hand. For a moment, he was very focused on Max. I showed Greggy the treat and his focus shifted. Max entered the room, Greggy was calm. He got a treat. Max approached Greggy's kennel and was within inches of the kennel, and to my total shock, Greggy stayed calm! He got a couple of treats. I kept this "activity" short and sweet so that we didn't overwhelm Greggy
I wanted to end on a positive note, so this little situation only lasted for about 10 minutes. It gave me an ounce of hope. Normally, Greggy will snarl at Max whether it's him in the kennel, or Max in the kennel. I'm not sure what to do. Greggy snarls at Max from behind a glass door, or if they're both almost nose-nose in the bottom crack of a door.

Everyone is telling me to surrender him, but I feel like he hasn't truly had a fair chance. At this point, he's still spent more time in a shelter than he has with me. I've been trying to work with him as much as possible, even on just basic commands (not sure if he ever knew them or forgot). I'd be so heartbroken if I had to see him off, but at the same time I don't want to be selfish and attempt to fix something that people are saying can't be fixed.


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## PatriciafromCO

great update,,  it's good that you are truly watching Greggy's body motion his eyes his head.. being the observer is vital ,, it will be that spilt second timing that will help you.. and if you really watch how he goes into a reaction then you will learn the exact moment before the start of a reaction to redirect him before he is too committed into it..   so happy Greggy gave you more attention then to Max.. Always remember to treat them both.. Greggy for being accepting, and Max for also being so accepting and tolerant of Greggy.. great update ...


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## Scottsmum

I'm really sorry to hear your situation. We recently adopted and assumed that our little guy had been tested for HW. He wasn't and our private vet told us not to finalise the adoption until we had him tested. She also advised to not take him on if he was HW+.

Fortunately we had a 2 week grace period to take him back to the shelter for any reason. FAR MORE fortunately he didn't have HW and it wasn't something we had to deal with. I don;t know what I would have done if we were faced with that.

I suppose the other thing I would add is - don't force him to fit just because you want to do the right thing by him. Yes it's great you want to make a commitment to him but there are other dogs out there who need a home and it's also important that he doesn't strain your existing (human and canine) relationships. 

If you think about it and you're not 100% sure in your heart of hearts that he is the right one for you re-home him or take him back to the shelter. It will be better for everyone in the long run.


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## sarahlynn

Was there a reason your vet said to not taking him because he was HW+?

The little guy I adopted was HW+ and I had no idea until I brought him home and looked over his medical records. The rescue never told me before hand, and I don't get a "grace period." He was a low-positive though, so I wasn't going to abandon him just because of that.

Honestly, I am not entirely sure what the "right" thing to do is. When I made the choice to adopt a dog, I knew that the word "perfect" could not be in my vocabulary. Greggy is 2, and was abandoned by the family he has known for so long & spent X amount of time as a stray, spent 2 weeks in a high-kill shelter, and on the day of his due-out date, he was taken in by a rescue for another week. I knew that adopting a dog, meant that taking in an animal who had been emotionally broken.

Do I feel guilty for thinking of rehoming him? Absolutely. My animals ARE my kids. I made a commitment to this little guy the moment I loaded him up into my car 2 weeks ago. I feel like he hasn't even had a fair chance to truly settle in, and more importantly, to trust me. I am dedicated to trying, but I don't know where to turn to. I've never had an aggressive animal before and with so many behaviorists out there, I can't afford to try each and every one of them. Of course, I can't be selfish forever and if progress can't be made in a reasonable amount of time, I will rehome him.

I'm really just not a fan of trying to just jump in and rehome him. It doesn't settle well with me. Rehoming doesn't solve anything, just relocates it. Plus, let's be honest, issues that people don't want to deal with are part of the reason why animals wind up in shelters to begin with. Just because there is literally just one issue, do I give up immediately? Am I fool to want to help him? Am I fool for not helping him? It would be tough rehoming an HW+ pup who is also dog aggressive. ughh. I hate this situation. I have a really sour taste in my mouth for this rescue, let me tell you.


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## Shell

What did the vet recommend for treating his heartworms? If you do decide to rehome him, his chances will be a lot better if his heartworms are fully treated, even though it would add to your expenses. 

It is possible that he is selectively dog aggressive or male-male DA, which can make rehoming a little easier. 

You are seeing some progress though, it may just take time for them to adjust.

Can I ask where you are located? State or metro region if you're comfortable sharing that. I _might_ be able to connect you with a trainer or at least a reputable rescue in your area.


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## sarahlynn

Shell said:


> What did the vet recommend for treating his heartworms? If you do decide to rehome him, his chances will be a lot better if his heartworms are fully treated, even though it would add to your expenses.
> 
> It is possible that he is selectively dog aggressive or male-male DA, which can make rehoming a little easier.
> 
> You are seeing some progress though, it may just take time for them to adjust.
> 
> Can I ask where you are located? State or metro region if you're comfortable sharing that. I _might_ be able to connect you with a trainer or at least a reputable rescue in your area.


Our vet recommended just doing the Heartgard every month since he is a low-positive, and then having him retested in about 6 months to see where he is at. The rescue sent me a "holistic" treatment, but from what I have tried to find online, there is no scientific evidence that shows holistic treatments are truly effective. I got a big whiff of the fumes of it yesterday, it smells like rubbing alcohol. Freaked me out. I'll stick to the recommended effective Heartgard.

I too, wonder if he is selective or male-dog aggressive, but I unfortunately don't know anyone with a dog that I could "test" that with. On walks, I have noticed that he barks at other dogs, even if they're 30+ yards away. It's more like a quick "rrROOF" instead of an elongated "ggrrrrrrROOF" so I haven't been able to tell if it's malicious barking or not.

I am located in the Orlando, FL region. If you have any recommendations, that would be awesome! The rescue has still ignored me both via email and private message on Facebook. I was hoping they had recommendations, but no such luck.


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## Shell

I think Heartguard (which is ivermectin) for the slow kill makes sense in this case. I've heard of anecdotal success cases for holistic type treatments, but ivermectin is a very safe drug - regularly used in humans too - so I wouldn't have any issue using it.

Try contacting Dolly's Foundation. They are a pit bull rescue, but they likely have good contacts with a variety of resources in the Central FL region. They may be able to connect you with an affordable trainer or maybe help you dog-test him with a female dog or such. _Most_ pit bull rescues have experience with a variety of dog aggression issues and from my interactions with them, Dolly's Foundation is reputable. 

Barking at other dogs may be leash reactivity or leash aggression rather than out-and-out dog aggression.


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## sarahlynn

After a few more days and a few more walks, it seems to me that his leash behavior is mostly just barking at other dogs? I'm not sure if that is a form of "aggression." His barks seems more to me like "hey who's there" barking than "hey I'm about to ruin your cheerios" barking. He doesn't walk like he's on high alert, mostly just sniffing to find a place for business, and then keeps moving forward.

The rescue I got him from was kind enough to suggest I watch Cesar Millan shows, haha. What a joke. I did get in contact with another trainer from a place called Bark Busters, and she did tell me that even if progress is made, there may be a chance the two of my dogs always walk on egg shells near each other. Does this seem true?

I did also want to mention that it seems Greggy never really knew any commands, so I am working on that with him every day. He's already mastered "sit" and we're working on "down" (lay down) now. He is extremely smart, and seems VERY eager to please. He is so smart! I am hoping that this helps him learn to trust me and in turn, it would be a plus when working on his Max-aggression.

I did do an exercise with his 2 nights ago. I let Max outside so that I could walk Greggy around the house on a leash (easy for me to control) and I walked with him until he was calm and walking at my side. Once calm, I walked him by the glass patio door where Max was sitting right in front of. I didn't let him stop or pause long enough to get a growl in, but I did give him a treat as we walked by him since I knew he saw Max anyways. USUALLY he would growl and snarl at Max even though there is a barrier between them. Not this time. He stayed calm, stayed at my side, accepted the treat, and kept moving with me. I repeated this about 3 times and then ended it on a good note to avoid pushing him to the point of failure.

Any suggestions for exercises that my boyfriend and I could try with the two of them in the same area (but within tolerable distance of each other) so that they both get rewarded for their calm behavior when in each others' presence?

I am trying to desensitize him to the best of my own abilities. I remain hopeful, but I also hope it is not wishful thinking.


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## Shell

I think you've got the right idea about rewarding calm behavior when he sees Max.

You and your boyfriend could each work with a dog, on-leash, at a distance from each other in the yard. Just ask for sit, shake, down, or whatever basic behavior the other dog knows. Be careful not to have one dog leashed and the other dog off-leash or loose behind a fence where he could hype up the other. Basically, you don't want to create barrier aggression by having Max running the fenceline and Greggy getting frustrated on the other side. Which is one problem with having Max sitting right outside the glass door while you walk Greggy by it. It is good that he was calm when he saw him, but you also want to limit the chances for them going face-to-face against the glass or a fence where they can focus on each other. Maybe try having Max outside with your boyfriend (and being asked to sit, shake etc) and then you have Greggy off-leash inside and reward for calm looks at Max and then his attention going back to you easily.

I get what the trainer is saying and basically agree. There IS a chance they will never get along. BUT, I've seen dogs progress to being comfortable around each other when there is a human present and no toys or treats in the area for example. Or dogs that are fine outdoors and off-leash together but not indoors. Or fine indoors together but not with the greater excitement of running around outside. So they may make sufficient progress that you can handle them both without complete separation. Or they may not. I think it is a reasonable thing for a trainer to caution you about.


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## sarahlynn

I know it wasn't the right idea to have them see each other with a barrier between them, but I was home alone and just wanted to try SOMETHING and that was the only controlled "activity" I could muster up. The professional was very honest, and I appreciated that so much. Another professional flat out told me that I need to just surrender Greggy and I wasn't really digging that advice. I guess the couple of times that Greggy was able to be calm with Max gave me a glimpse of hope. In my personal opinion, they're both still young so maybe it's possible that behaviors can change? I don't know.

How do you manage your dogs indoors? Are they relatively calm, but try to stay out of each others way? I'm sure the situation is far different from mine, but it'd be great to get an idea of how you handle your dogs.

Greggy has only been with us for 3 weeks, and we're both dedicated to working with him and Max. I am hoping that by working one-on-one with Greggy, and then as a team with my boyfriend and Max, we can make progress towards some civility. I never leave my dogs unsupervised now, so they'll pretty much always be supervised in the future.


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## Shell

I'll just give you a basic run-down of how I handle the foster dogs and you can maybe take from it what makes sense for your situation.

BTW, IMO it wasn't wrong how you walked him by the glass door, I'm just mentioning that barriers can be an issue during training. 

When I get a new adult foster dog--
first, we introduce the dogs outside the house with both dogs on-leash but walking forward and gradually let them take turns sniffing each other. I won't take a foster that shows out and out aggression towards my dog, although I have (and will) take fosters that show aggression towards other dogs. If the foster is a little snippy or growling, I can deal with that.

The next 1-3 weeks are spent with the dogs totally separate. I have a "dog room" with a crate, rug and old couch for the foster dog to live in. I make sure to spend plenty of time separately with each dog and it IS time consuming. Yard time, walks, cuddle time etc. 

When I can tell the foster is responding to me on basic commands, I start walking the dogs together. When they can walk together well over and over again, I have them both sit in the living room with leashes still on but dropped on the floor. I praise them but don't use food treats when the dogs are together at this stage. I ask each dog to sit next to me on opposite sides of the couch and praise calmness. 

The first time I let the dogs loose in the yard together, I tend to have a friend around for a hand if needed. I sometimes put a harness on the foster dog for greater control (while still being pretty safe to prevent choking like on a collar).

I teach a command "Take it easy" for when the dogs are playing but are starting to get too hyped up. This isn't for aggressive dogs but for those that maybe have less manners than others or get too rough without meaning to. 

I teach a "Go to bed" command to ask the dogs to lay on their bed or in a specific place.

I will body-block when the dogs are overly interested in each other at first. I don't say anything, I just calmly step between them and redirect their focus to me. 

Most of the fosters are instigators. They want to play, they want to nip and wrestle all the time. It isn't aggression but it does have to be controlled to a degree so that it doesn't turn into a fight. I just redirect as needed. 

I never ever feed dogs meals in the same room. I will only give treats to dogs in the same room carefully after observation and once both have learned to sit and stay well and those are single bite treats that I hand them, not something they gnaw on for several minutes. Chew toys are completely separated. Rope toys and "low value" toys will be dependent on the dog. Some dogs will guard a tree branch, others are fine with sharing tennis balls. 

All that is an over-precaution to some people, but the dogs outweigh me and I have broken up a serious dog fight before with assistance and once without assistance and would prefer not to have to do it again.


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## sarahlynn

Thanks for the detailed information! I like your approach. It seems when I look at myself, I've been a bit impatient and easily discouraged. At the same time though, Greggy's aggression with Max is just instant - the moment he sees him. How did your fosters ultimately end up doing with your dogs, or did you just keep it safe and keep them separated for their entire stay?


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## Shell

sarahlynn said:


> Thanks for the detailed information! I like your approach. It seems when I look at myself, I've been a bit impatient and easily discouraged. At the same time though, Greggy's aggression with Max is just instant - the moment he sees him. How did your fosters ultimately end up doing with your dogs, or did you just keep it safe and keep them separated for their entire stay?


None of my fosters have showed instant aggression against MY dog. Some were iffy but none out and out bad. That was my condition of accepting them as fosters. I have had some that showed aggression towards other dogs or that were not trustworthy in the yard if there were dogs on the other side of the fence (redirected barrier aggression). None were kept separately their whole stay, but yes, some never made it to the "run loose in the yard" level. All of them managed to be fine indoors when there was no food or high value chews in the area. 

That said, I have had friends who have made great progress with dogs that showed direct aggression towards their own dogs. 
Sometimes the root of the problem can be found and fixed, sometimes the root of the problem is genetic aggression and it just is what it is IMO>


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