# So ...my trainer told me she has never heard of delaying neuter/spay for dogs health



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Guys- feedback pls-- am I wrong?
But research seems to indicate that early spay/ neuter is not the best thing (if not down right detrimental) for dogs-- especially the large and giant breeds.
As some of you know, we recently brought home a Great Pyreenes / Anatolian mix pup (he is 21.4 lbs at 9 weeks, and skinny).... and when I mentioned that I wanted to wait to neuter pup til at least 18 months, our puppy class trainer said, I have never heard of waiting for s/peuter what does your Vet say? (vet of course is, s/peuter asap they have not seem to have heard of this either)--
thoughts? help feedback pls-- If it wasnt for this Forum, I would feel very alone on this subject-- also I would like to ask, for those of you in the veternirary services, what is going on and why is it not well know to wait for your dogs' health on the s/peutering?!!!


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

I hadn't heard of it either until joining the forum.
Personally, I'll still probably choose to spay/neuter by 6 months.


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

I would definitely delay! You give your large breed mix pup a way better chance at not having bone and joint issues if you wait until he's about 2 years old to neuter. Neutering early doesn't allow the hormones to effect the growth plates and bone density of dogs. Plus spaying early can sometimes cause bladder incontinence. 

There's a great article about performance dogs here http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf 

I'm going to do agility with Ammy, I'm not spaying her until after her first heat. My aunt's vet would spay her really large golden until he was 9 months, she refused to do it any earlier than that. I got all of Ammy's shots done at a spay/neuter clinic because it was cheaper than my vet. Every time I went in there they were pushing me to get her done at 4 months, and I was like there's no way! She's still a baby! I will spay her 6 weeks after her first heat, I don't want puppies and I don't want to deal with a dog in heat. I just want to give her the chance to develop fully. 

Encourage your trainer to do more research


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Spaying a dog before its first heat cycle is almost a 100% guarantee against cancerous mammary tumors. After one heat cycle it increases very slightly... after the second heat cycle it increases to like 25% chance even if you spay them the risk is still there.

Male dogs. on the other hand...Their hormones have a lot to do with their muscle growth and development. and not having as many issues as female dogs I think the benefits to waiting to neuter till they are about 2 yrs old outweighs any reason for neutering them young. ( unless the person can not keep their boy dog from knocking up the local female dogs )


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Probably because the general message is SPAY AND NEUTER ALL THE PETS. Which is fine, especially for any one that doesn't want to or can't manage an intact dog. There is sometimes a quite obvious message of how responsible owners ALWAYS neuter their animals. There is a lot of varying research and a lot of varying opinions out there. Personally, I do not like pediatric s/ns, but every thing else is up to the individual owner. 

I have never asked my vet what they think about s/n and when, though. Shambles is intact but I can't recall any one ever saying any thing about it.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Sorry I don't know much about it, but I do know I didn't get Luke neutered until he was almost a year old. Our vet said that it was fine, but they didn't understand why we didn't do it sooner. Maybe it's a rule or something that the vets say, to have a dog neutered/spayed by this age. Not sure why really. I'd do what's best for you and your dog.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I would wait until he's 18 months especially since he's such a large breed. 

We didn't spay/neuter any of our dogs until they were well over a year or two old.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Well I believe it is detrimental at any age. But FAR more so at a young age.


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## GLiO (Aug 12, 2013)

There is no single answer on when to spay/neuter. There are many factors to consider, to include the dog's lifestyle, breed, size, gender, temperament, other health issues, etc. Ultimately, the decision is up to you. The best thing you can do is do your research, talk to a vet, and make an educated decision.

Here are some articles to read through that may be of help:

Risks and Benefits to Spaying and Neutering Your Dog - The Whole Dog Journal
Spay Neuter - ASPCA
What's the right time to spay and neuter your dog? - PetMD
I'd also like to note that in Germany, at least in my experience, a lot of vets recommend performing the surgery no earlier than 1 year old.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

We're waiting until about 2 years. It's actually in our breeder contract. I did a lot of research and read a lot of articles, talked to our breeder and a lot of other Newf owners... We feel that the risks of hip and elbow and bone issues are just not something to play around with, especially due to how big she's going to get.

A lot of the Newf owners (especially breeders) that I've talked with never get their dogs fixed, or only the females and only after two years. I heard a _lot_ about letting the puberty hormones do their job and make sure the growth plates are all fused and finished growing. I really just don't want to chance anything like that and we felt it was the best thing to do to keep our pup healthy.

I was actually really surprised that our vet is totally on board (with this AND a raw diet, actually. I think we lucked out). She helping us a lot and giving us information on how to deal with heat cycles and things. I love our vet.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I am not getting Kris, my Doberman, spayed till after at least her first heat, maybe two, as I am planning on doing Agility with her. My two male Shih Tzu x Maltese are not neutered and never will be unless there is a problem. I had Susie spayed at six months and I would never do that again. She is a Bernese cross and I have had a lot of issues with her staying sound plus she is the first dog I have ever had a weight problem with.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

You'll have to do the research and print out Journal articles for your Vet and Trainer, b/c they don't have the time to do the research themselves. But, I think the main articles are listed above.

I believe that conservative Vet opinions suggest neuter at 6 mos. However, I think the research now suggests neuter at 2 years. For spaying, I believe that most of the research is based on Rotties, which seem to have a general tendency to get cancer. The trend seems to be that spaying later greatly increases the change of mammary cancer, as Fade wrote. Personally (and I am NOT a Vet), I don't think that the researchers are correct to generalize Rottie research to ALL dogs. There are research studies with other breeds.

I suggest that you do NOT quote us [Internet strangers  ] or our opinions, but go to the sources and quote them directly, coming to your own conclusions, and providing hardcopy papers and your conclusions to your Vet and trainer.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Really though, what your trainer and vet say don't matter. Their opinions and recommendations are just that -- opinions and recommendations. It's your dog. Do some research and make the decision. It won't hurt your male if you wait to neuter.

I agree with the others that a lot of the "neuter at six months" stuff is pushed less for health reasons and more for population control reasons. Not everyone is responsible enough to prevent "oops" litters. Personally, with a large/giant male, I would wait until maturity to neuter because I know I could manage him just fine.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

=skipped all comments=

My common sense told me that removing parts of a dog they're born with, that deal with thyroid, growth hormones and a bunch of other very necessary stuff for growth and proper development is probably not a fantastic idea.

Bluntly speaking, most vets aren't going to tell you the truth about it. Either they're flat out uneducated -which is worrisome- or they want to make that almighty dollar, which is worse IMO. The media screams at people to do it, talks about all the /potential/ benefits, which are outweighed by the risks, but won't say a thing about the negatives. Ignorance is played on quite a lot when it comes to this.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

HollowHeaven said:


> Bluntly speaking, most vets aren't going to tell you the truth about it. Either they're flat out uneducated -which is worrisome- or they want to make that almighty dollar, which is worse IMO. The media screams at people to do it, talks about all the /potential/ benefits, which are outweighed by the risks, but won't say a thing about the negatives. Ignorance is played on quite a lot when it comes to this.


Or, um, ya know, they see all the animals killed because there aren't enough homes for them and know that a lot of people aren't going to be able to keep their pets from getting knocked up. And that even if it may have slight health risks, the benefit to society/the animal population in general is greater than the individual drawbacks. 

The first I heard of it was a co-worker who said that her vet (in another town) told her to wait until her male dog was 18 months old to neuter. I just thought he was a nutsy old vet with old-school ideas. Then I heard it here. Then I saw the WDJ article. 

But yeah. Make your own decision based on what you know and believe. Don't let anyone else bully you one way or the other.


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## GLiO (Aug 12, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> =skipped all comments=
> 
> My common sense told me that removing parts of a dog they're born with, that deal with thyroid, growth hormones and a bunch of other very necessary stuff for growth and proper development is probably not a fantastic idea.
> 
> Bluntly speaking, most vets aren't going to tell you the truth about it. Either they're flat out uneducated -which is worrisome- or they want to make that almighty dollar, which is worse IMO. The media screams at people to do it, talks about all the /potential/ benefits, which are outweighed by the risks, but won't say a thing about the negatives. Ignorance is played on quite a lot when it comes to this.


I think spaying/neutering should absolutely be done, but not at 6 months across the board for all dogs.

There are just too many unhomed dogs in the world for us not to try our best at population control. There are too many ignorant families giving away free puppies from a box in the parking lot. Too many people breeding their own dogs and selling the puppies for $800 when they have done nothing more than just an AKC registration. It's a real problem and spaying/neutering is the best solution.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

DELAY! I know people hate to anthropomorphise but I am going to here as its always the best way for me to get people to understand. 

It's like desexing a kid before they hit puberty, think about how many changes the body goes through during that stage in order to become a healthy adult body.

They gain muscle tone which helps support the skeletal frame, tendons and ligaments develop more and strengthen, hormones become more active in the healing process, testosterone plays a HUGE part in healing for a male dog,(which is why I would prefer to never fix a male dog) which also decreases the chance of arthritis at old age because the muscle and tendon net work still works properly. Also plays a big part in the growing process.

Think about taking that away from your dog if you early spay or neuter, you are depriving them of all the hormones they need for their body to grow into a proper adult body. 

You see all the time dogs that have trouble putting on muscle tone because they may have been fixed too young, tall and lanky large breed dogs who never had the chance to fill out cos they got desexed too early ( I see this a lot in the great dane club in my state which I am a member of) or dogs doing cruciates or tendons and the healing process taking a long time. 

That's my view of it and that's how I always explain it to people to get them to understand. May be whack but it has worked for me.

Also, this article is good, puts pros and cons in front of your face http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

GLiO said:


> I think spaying/neutering should absolutely be done, but not at 6 months across the board for all dogs.
> 
> There are just too many unhomed dogs in the world for us not to try our best at population control. There are too many ignorant families giving away free puppies from a box in the parking lot. Too many people breeding their own dogs and selling the puppies for $800 when they have done nothing more than just an AKC registration. It's a real problem and spaying/neutering is the best solution.


No, education is the best solution. If you aren't responsible enough to own and manage an intact dog, then IMO you aren't responsible enough to own one.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

GLiO said:


> I think spaying/neutering should absolutely be done, but not at 6 months across the board for all dogs.
> 
> There are just too many unhomed dogs in the world for us not to try our best at population control. There are too many ignorant families giving away free puppies from a box in the parking lot. Too many people breeding their own dogs and selling the puppies for $800 when they have done nothing more than just an AKC registration. It's a real problem and spaying/neutering is the best solution.



The problem here is: The responsible people aren't the ones doing that, and the irresponsible ones don't care! They're two entirely different populations. 

Would I push spay/neuter for any dog I fostered and make sure they were altered before rehoming? You bet, because the dog is then out of my control. In reality, though, most people who are going to s/n because media says it's good or they're dog or because of an overpopulation problem aren't the people who are ever going to be responsible for an accidental litter, much less a careless one where the owners don't care or just want to make a buck. They're going to do it because they're right, and it's the right and responsible thing to do. 

It's just... there's very, very little overlap there. 

And I REALLY hate the idea that lying to people is justified to get them to do what you want. Particularly when it doesn't even work that way because of the above mentioned lack of overlap between people who care about the responsible thing to do for the pet population at large, and people having accidental litters, or litters for money.



mashlee08 said:


> No, education is the best solution. If you aren't responsible enough to own and manage an intact dog, then IMO you aren't responsible enough to own one.


Agreed. My girls are spayed because I don't like the curtailing of activities and mess involved with a bitch in heat and live with kids (one of whom is autistic) and intact male dogs which makes an accident more likely. I admit straight up its for my convenience. 

But bottom line? It ain't hard to own an intact dog and prevent them from being pregnant or getting someone else pregnant. 

And there's a WHOLE LOT of lying being called information to get people to spay/neuter, and that just ticks me off.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

mashlee08 said:


> No, education is the best solution. If you aren't responsible enough to own and manage an intact dog, then IMO you aren't responsible enough to own one.


Super. I'd better dump my dogs at the shelter then. Or shoot them or something. Clearly I don't deserve to own any animal because I'm not perfect and there's a pretty good chance I would not be able to keep my pets from reproducing if they weren't fixed.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Super. I'd better dump my dogs at the shelter then. Or shoot them or something. Clearly I don't deserve to own any animal because I'm not perfect and there's a pretty good chance I would not be able to keep my pets from reproducing if they weren't fixed.


Cats are actually really hard to keep from reproducing without surgery. 

But how the heck hard would it be for you to keep your dogs from getting pregnant or getting someone else pregnant? I mean honestly. They don't roam, aren't out alone -shouldn't be out alone and unsupervised0, and tend to crate well in general, or all those households that crate and rotate would be in trouble, because there the risk is death. I don't bother with my females because I'm lazy -and I ADMIT it's laziness - but it's *NOT LIKE IT IS HARD TO DO*.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Cats are actually really hard to keep from reproducing without surgery.
> 
> But how the heck hard would it be for you to keep your dogs from getting pregnant or getting someone else pregnant? I mean honestly. They don't roam, aren't out alone -shouldn't be out alone and unsupervised0, and tend to crate well in general, or all those households that crate and rotate would be in trouble, because there the risk is death. I don't bother with my females because I'm lazy -and I ADMIT it's laziness - but it's *NOT LIKE IT IS HARD TO DO*.


Yep, doing it for convenience and doing it because you can't are two different things. I am too lazy to manage the problem so I got Indie fixed at 12 months old, but I regret doing it, I wish now I had just sucked it up and kept her entire and dealt with it. 
Cats are another story.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Answer to the OP:

End of the day, it's your decision. Thud's likely a similar mix. He'll be neutered after 2, if at all. Frankly, I tend to go toward 'never'. Bug came to me 'spayed' (and got spayed a second time and found a tiny bit of ovary that was removed) and Kylie was spayed at 6 months. Kylie's a small breed dog, and frankly I didn't want to deal with heat cycles in a house with an autistic kid and intact males. I would probably spay in any scenario where I had both gender dogs and still had autistic boy at home, because there is a higher risk of something happening, though we could (and have in the past) managed it in the short term. I'm also selfish enough not to want to stop doing things like off leash hikes and training classes. Boys? Eh. Never been an issue with me. 

One thing to think about though is that a lot of neutered males have issues with intact ones. One of the reasons Thud isn't going to be neutered is that we have 2 intact boys in the house and everyone gets along just fine - even while a dog in our house was in heat. I'm not inclined to rock that boat, so everyone stays intact. If any of them were neutered, it's very likely I'd go ahead and neuter them all at ANY hint of trouble, because of that.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Because I'm crazy absent-minded. I frequently leave the gate to the cat room unlatched and find that the dogs have eaten all the cat food. I hate that, I have motivation to prevent it from happening, but yet it still happens. Because I'm not perfect. I would probably be able to keep my female dogs from getting knocked up by strange dogs---my dogs have only escaped a couple times, and we'll say theoretically that maybe the female wasn't in heat at the time---but keeping unaltered mixed genders in the same home? No way. I KNOW I'd absent-mindedly leave a door unlatched or something.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Because I'm crazy absent-minded. I frequently leave the gate to the cat room unlatched and find that the dogs have eaten all the cat food. I hate that, I have motivation to prevent it from happening, but yet it still happens. Because I'm not perfect. I would probably be able to keep my female dogs from getting knocked up by strange dogs---my dogs have only escaped a couple times, and we'll say theoretically that maybe the female wasn't in heat at the time---but keeping unaltered mixed genders in the same home? No way. I KNOW I'd absent-mindedly leave a door unlatched or something.


Eh. This is ultimately why my girls are spayed - sort of, though more because of kid than me - and why I would never choose to crate and rotate. 

It still doesn't make it HARD, to be honest. Or outside the scope of management for most people. I mean I leave doors open sometimes and don't mean to, but I don't leave the back yard open and I've never walked out of the house and left the front door standing open. I've never forgotten to latch a crate, either. Or let the dogs into the room while the rat was out -or even into the room where the rat lives. A lot of it's just... degree of caring and habit formation. Thud regularly eats all the cat food. I care, but I don't care THAT MUCH. I care if the rat becomes dinner a lot more.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I just don't think I'm capable of it. I hate the accusation that recognizing your limitations and doing something to prevent disaster is irresponsible. That, because I recognize my limitations, I'm not responsible enough to keep a dog at all. I mean really.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I just don't think I'm capable of it. I hate the accusation that recognizing your limitations and doing something to prevent disaster is irresponsible. That, because I recognize my limitations, I'm not responsible enough to keep a dog at all. I mean really.


I think that may be going too far, but honestly? I kind of agree that the overlap between the people who are going to spay/neuter for 'the greater good'/they hear about a population problem and the ones who are producing irresponsibly bred litters (backyard, accidental, for profit) is just about nil. 

I mean, like she said: Doing it because it's easier for you, fine, but CAN NOT? That implies that it's some big deal that's super hard to manage. Let's get real -and I say this as someone with dogs of both genders- it's real easy to manage by only having one gender dog, too. Having both is a complication you and I both voluntarily took on, that made s/n more attractive and management harder. It's not like 'I can't keep a dog from being knocked up'. More like 'I don't want to/it would be hard/there might be an accident I don't want to deal with because I'm kind of scatterbrained and I have multiple dogs and dogs of both genders so there would be work required within my home'.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

I've heard it many times and opted to wait until my boy was almost 2. Everythin was fine. It definitely does not hurt to wait. It seems like there are
More risks to do it earlier than later, so i opted to wait. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> I kind of agree that the overlap between the people who are going to spay/neuter for 'the greater good'/they hear about a population problem and the ones who are producing irresponsibly bred litters (backyard, accidental, for profit) is just about nil.


The BYB/for profit people, maybe not. But accidental litters? Definitely an overlap. I can't count how many people I've known whose pet had a litter "before they could get her spayed", and then they have her spayed afterward, but then the same thing happens with their next dog, clearly demonstrating that they can't/won't prevent an accidental litter but will have their pet spayed (. . .eventually). Like my mom's childhood dog, who had many accidental litters, so my grandparents had their next dog spayed, and guess what? No accidental litters. There are plenty of people who will have their pet spayed but can't/won't prevent a pregnancy in an unspayed pet.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> The BYB/for profit people, maybe not. But accidental litters? Definitely an overlap. I can't count how many people I've known whose pet had a litter "before they could get her spayed", and then they have her spayed afterward, but then the same thing happens with their next dog, clearly demonstrating that they can't/won't prevent an accidental litter but will have their pet spayed (. . .eventually). Like my mom's childhood dog, who had many accidental litters, so my grandparents had their next dog spayed, and guess what? No accidental litters. There are plenty of people who will have their pet spayed but can't/won't prevent a pregnancy in an unspayed pet.


The problem here is, there are options for preventing the dog delivering a litter, just because it tied and/or got pregnant. THAT information isn't exactly buried under a rock. They choose not to do it. Because the pet over population problem isn't something they care THAT much about. And obviously if they cared THAT much about pet over population, they wouldn't KEEP letting it happen -once, maybe, but repeatedly? Nope. Also, frankly, this goes both ways: You care that much about pet over population, you don't let your dog get knocked up. Some people that means spay or neuter. Some it clearly means manage, but actually doing something to prevent accidents resulting in puppies -much less many litters of puppies. 

That's not caring about pet overpopulation. That's being lazy, on every front imaginable. 

And what I said was that the people who spay because they care about pet overpopulation aren't the ones producing litters. If they cared - duh - there'd be no litters, either because of surgery (before or after) or proper management.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

I wish that Scruffy was over 2 years old when she was fixed, I think with large breed dogs it's more important to wait, but i will be waiting,with all my dogs if i can, or i may not fix them depending on my plans with the dog. I am confident in my ability to prevent an oops litter but ultimately it's your dog so it's your choice


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The basic argument is "if they're responsible enough to have their pet spayed at all, then they're responsible enough to prevent a pregnancy in the first place". And I say that's not true. At all. 

And I've met a lot of people who had no idea that you could get a "doggie (or kitty) abortion". The information may not be buried under a rock but it's not exactly common knowledge either. I didn't know before I joined here. I always figured that once they were pregnant there was nothing you could do about it until after the babies were born.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

We have gone through this before. I am not going to rehash the entire scenario again. Other to say, that I will be 46 and have owned between two and as many as close to 20 (I had a bunch of dogs when I was running deer and hogs with dogs) In that time the dogs that had the shorten lives were those that I altered. I have only altered four dogs out of a great many. I have only had three dogs get cancer, and all of those were altered. I had three cancers and an auto immune disorder. My brother in law and I bought littermate brothers... Rottweilers. Altered mine, he died of liver cancer at four. My brother in law did not alter his. He died at 11.

I was feeding up, cleaning kennels, running, and otherwise managing my grandfather's bird dogs well before my tenth birthday. 

IF I was going to alter a dog it was not be before 24 months and more likely 36 months.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Super. I'd better dump my dogs at the shelter then. Or shoot them or something. Clearly I don't deserve to own any animal because I'm not perfect and there's a pretty good chance I would not be able to keep my pets from reproducing if they weren't fixed.


Oh god the hyperbole. Yes, kill your dogs because you fixed them. That's what "if you're able to be responsible for an intact animal" means. That every one else is stupid and somehow that means they should.. have their dogs shot? This is why threads like this get ruined and any good information goes on the way. They get crapped out with cringe worthy word twists.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I was pushed by a trainer to neuter my year old Rottie,made me dislike the training classes. Now he's five years and 8 months old,un altered,healthy,active and never made puppies. I'd decided I'd like to keep males intact and to late neuter females. All the cats I had where neutered,I`m more worried about them escaping. I`m not a perfect owner,my dog is a poor heeler even, so not the best trainer,but could manage it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Or, um, ya know, they see all the animals killed because there aren't enough homes for them and know that a lot of people aren't going to be able to keep their pets from getting knocked up. And that even if it may have slight health risks, the benefit to society/the animal population in general is greater than the individual drawbacks.


First of all the health risks are not slight. 

Second of all... When I was 8 years old, I got paid 2 dollars a day after school to feed and water his bird dogs, I let dogs out to run in a paddock to or three dogs at a time. 

If an eight year old can be taught how to manage dogs without having an accidental breeding, ANYONE can.



As other have said, education is the key.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

What benefit to society and the greater pet population does a neutered dog serve over _one who just isn't bred[?

Look, I fully, whole-heartedly, support the spaying and neutering of dogs adopted out by rescues and shelters. I think it's a fantastic way to keep animals that are going to homes where there is some uncertainty about the competence of the new owner, or that the dog may be rehomed in the future, from reproducing. If I got a puppy today and was going to rehome it, I'd do so altered. 

My issue is the sheer level of lying and propaganda that goes along with that. You don't need to make this big production about how untrained animals are impossible to keep, and there are health risks of having intact animals, and OMG the behavioural problems you will have!!!! 

That's all straight up bullcrap. 

Even more crap is the flat out baloney that comes with those blind, ignorant, uneducated people continuing to spread misinformation and deciding that someone who makes a different, EDUCATED (which is more than we can say for them) decision is an irresponsible owner, churning out puppies. 

It's ridiculous, it is damaging, and it's frankly not doing any danged good for pet overpopulation ANYWAY. It's just making those ignorant, ill-informed, people feel good about themselves.

At this point, it's about as much of a meme as "SHARE OR YOU WANT KIDS TO DIE" "SPAY OR NEUTER OR YOU WANT PUPPIES TO DIE" - and just about equally effective. Just straight up slack-tivism._


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Super. I'd better dump my dogs at the shelter then. Or shoot them or something. Clearly I don't deserve to own any animal because I'm not perfect and there's a pretty good chance I would not be able to keep my pets from reproducing if they weren't fixed.


You could.... You have just been pushed to believe that intact dogs are mindless sex fiends. 

Do you realize that a bitch can only get pregnant 2 percent of their lives....

The rhetoric is tiresome. The spay or else daitribe is old, tired, and as time goes on, folks are just not going to believe it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I just don't think I'm capable of it. I hate the accusation that recognizing your limitations and doing something to prevent disaster is irresponsible. That, because I recognize my limitations, I'm not responsible enough to keep a dog at all. I mean really.


You are not capable of managing a bitch for 2 percent of her life? 

You are not capable of managing a dog to ensure he does not come into contact with bitches of unknown status?


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Interesting debate guys, I just wish that "professionals" would read up and be honest that there are other options, out there. And actually, with the other big male in the house neutered(Berner Max's diet is not working that well he weighed in at 116 lbs today!), CPTjack's point about neutered dogs having issues with intact males is not one I had thought about....


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

BernerMax said:


> CPTjack's point about neutered dogs having issues with intact males is not one I had thought about....


Oh I got distracted by the hysterics, but I meant to chime in about that. I have been planning to neuter Shambles because Jack takes issue with intact males and keeping the peace has been difficult- because of Jack. Sham has zero problems with any dog he meets and avoids Jack. Things only heightened with them recently, but things were OK until Sham was about 2. Jonas was unaltered when we adopted him and Jack wasn't too keen on him until he was neutered.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Oh I got distracted by the hysterics, but I meant to chime in about that. I have been planning to neuter Shambles because Jack takes issue with intact males and keeping the peace has been difficult- because of Jack. Sham has zero problems with any dog he meets and avoids Jack. Things only heightened with them recently, but things were OK until Sham was about 2. Jonas was unaltered when we adopted him and Jack wasn't too keen on him until he was neutered.


Yeah. My feeling is pretty much either neuter 'em all, or leave 'em all intact. I know that doesn't necessarily hold true, and you should definitely be able to delay (and see if it's going to be an issue), but me and my home - if anyone gets neutered, everyone's getting neutered. I've just had too many issues with neutered males reacting to my intact ones like they have a bullseye painted on their forehead.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. My feeling is pretty much either neuter 'em all, or leave 'em all intact. I know that doesn't necessarily hold true, and you should definitely be able to delay (and see if it's going to be an issue), but me and my home - if anyone gets neutered, everyone's getting neutered. I've just had too many issues with neutered males reacting to my intact ones like they have a bullseye painted on their forehead.


Things really went well until Sham was mature. I was hoping to make it until his 3rd birthday at least, but Jack is escalating and Sham can't even be jolly without Jack getting uppity so they spend a lot of time apart. Jonas doesn't like him no matter what, so at least some things will always be consistent. Sham's best bud is neutered and they've never had an issue.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You are not capable of managing a bitch for 2 percent of her life?


Seriously only 7 days a year she needs to be kept away from males? I'm skeptical. And no, I couldn't, not in the same house. I would probably do OK most of the time, but it only takes one time of leaving the door/crate improperly latched. . .and I think a dozen Rott/supermutt puppies count as a disaster .


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Oh god the hyperbole. Yes, kill your dogs because you fixed them. That's what "if you're able to be responsible for an intact animal" means. That every one else is stupid and somehow that means they should.. have their dogs shot? This is why threads like this get ruined and any good information goes on the way. They get crapped out with cringe worthy word twists.


You don't think "you shouldn't have a dog at all if you're not responsible enough to keep it intact" is hyperbole? _That's_ why these threads get ruined. There are high stakes in this matter. People who don't spay because they want to be "responsible" and overestimate their level of attentiveness results in unwanted puppies.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Seriously only 7 days a year she needs to be kept away from males? I'm skeptical. And no, I couldn't, not in the same house. I would probably do OK most of the time, but it only takes one time of leaving the door/crate improperly latched. . .and I think a dozen Rott/supermutt puppies count as a disaster .


Actually I used ten days a year. Given a ten year lifespan, that is a 100 days. Whiich works out to 2.7% of her life. Which is being over generous. But it keeps things simple. I also used a flat two percent because it is closer to reality. 

Here is reality.. In a heat cycle, there are only about five days, when the bitch will allow herself to be bred. This is called standing heat. It occurs a little before the time she actually ovulates and continues to a little past when she is done ovulating. Most bitches go into heat about twice a year. But again in reality, it is usually more like 7 months or so. As a bitch gets older, the amount of time between heats lengthens. There is no hard and fast rule but it does. In some bitches the lengthening of time between heats begin as early as 3 or so but it typically happens later. 

So if a bitch goes into heat the first time at 6 months (Which is way early) has a heat like clockwork every 7 ,months through her sixth year of life, starts to lengthen the time period between heats, to once a year by the time she is nine..... By the time she is 130 months old (10.8 years) she will have been in standing heat a total of about 80 days. 
That works out to right at 2 percent of her life. 

So be skeptical all you want. That is reality. 

And a bitch does not surprise you. Even if she goes in heat, a month early, or six months late, it is not like you wake up one morning and boom she is in standing heat. You know it is coming. You can visible see that she is heat WELL before she is in actually standing heat. 

And if you have an intact male in the same household, it is EVEN MORE EASY, to know she is coming into heat. He is going to smell the hormonal changes in hear well before you see any physical signs from her. He is going to let you know at least a week before the cycle begins. 

And still you say you cannot manage that 2 percent of her life in the same household? 

Even if you have an absent minded moment, the dogs well not let you forget. If he has a chance to get near her even before she is showing signs, he will. And before she is in standing heat, she is going to be quite testy with him to put it mildly. And if she is in standing heat, she is going to seek him out just as fast if not faster. 

It is not like they are going to be sly or quiet about it. The dogs are not going to say, Shhhh.... Willowy left a gate unlatched. Lets wait until she is asleep and get our groove on. 
No the reaction is going to be immediate, loud and dramatic. There is no sneakiness in dog sex. 

And that is the point and the reality. Be absent minded all you want. The dogs will keep you focused. They are waiting for their chance. They know the sound of a gate latch that did not catch, a door that did not shut all the way, etc. Their response and reaction to your moment of lack of attention is going to be immediate. 

You do not have to worry about being absent minded. The dogs will remind you of what the deal is.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> You don't think "you shouldn't have a dog at all if you're not responsible enough to keep it intact" is hyperbole? _That's_ why these threads get ruined. There are high stakes in this matter. People who don't spay because they want to be "responsible" and overestimate their level of attentiveness results in unwanted puppies.


Ruined? Because folks do not agree with you? It just is not that hard...
And the dogs are not going to let you forget to be attentive... 

Heck I could be going on 30 hours of no sleep, it be three am in the morning and I could have had four or five too many Bombay Sapphires and tonic, and the dogs still would not let me forget. 

Lets say I am overworked, overstressed, overtired, and I overdrank.... Merlin is out back and both of my bitches are in heat. (which is not uncommon. When you have more than one bitch, they often seem to sync up. At least to a degree) 

If the bitches are loose in the house and he outside, it is not like they are going to let me forget there... They are all going to be standing there at the door, scratching, howling, whining barking. It is not less than OBVIOUS. 

If The bitches are crated in the back room, which is where I put them to manage their comings and goings, and I forgot, to close the door, as soon as I open the door, he is going to BOLT to the back room. (yes he likely heard that I did not shut the door from outside) So I have and Oh @$#$ moment and chase him down the hall. Not like he can do anything. They are crated. So I pick him up, carry him out of the room and close the door behind me. 


A scenario of the bitches are lounging in another part of the house, and I forget, let Merlin in, and he slyly waits until my attention is more diverted and slips down the hall. 

It SIMPLY does not work that way. There is no saying well that is just the way your dogs react.... There are differences and different dogs react slightly different. But ALL dogs will react. Fact is plain and simple.... If you have a bitch in heat in the house and an intact dog, all the animals are going to be FOCUSED, DRIVEN, and INTENT, on what is going on. Even if you have a bitch that is not in heat, an altered male, etc. They are all well fed on that energy. 

You can forget the absent minded excuse, when it comes to having dogs and bitches in the house together during a heat cycle. The dogs will keep you focused. If they don't, someone better check to see if you have a pulse.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I wasn't the one who first said that threads like this get ruined. I was just going with what TWAB said. I don't think it's ruined, I think it's fun . 

Look, it's awfully surprising that there are so many unwanted litters if it's SOOOOO easy to keep dogs away from each other. Either most people are brain-dead idiots, or it's just not that easy. I hear about several unwanted litters every year, and the owners are always "well, we knew she was in heat so we tried to keep her away from males, we just don't know what happened. . ." Maybe people really are that stupid. Although that doesn't bode well for the human race .


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ahehehe. I think it's funny that a trainer would say "I've never heard of xyz!!" when I wonder how many people have told HER "I've never heard of clicker training!!!" or "But I've always used leash corrections!" 



Crantastic said:


> Really though, what your trainer and vet say don't matter. Their opinions and recommendations are just that -- opinions and recommendations. It's your dog. Do some research and make the decision. It won't hurt your male if you wait to neuter.
> 
> I agree with the others that a lot of the "neuter at six months" stuff is pushed less for health reasons and more for population control reasons. Not everyone is responsible enough to prevent "oops" litters. Personally, with a large/giant male, I would wait until maturity to neuter because I know I could manage him just fine.


Pretty much this. For a variety of reasons I won't belabor, I ended up neutering Squash a bit earlier than I had planned but he was still around 13-14 months old. At the time, his growth plates were closed (he had his hips x-rayed, too), so I'm happy. My personal suspicion in the long run as this issue is actually studied more thoroughly instead of relying on anectdata on both "sides," that will end up being the key issue for orthopedic problems - are the growth plates closed or not. 

Anyway, it takes time for changes in attitude and beliefs to trickle through a profession and also keep in mind that trainers and veterinarians see a LOT of "Oh yea I can totally manage this intact male OH NO HE TIED WITH MY FEMALE WHAT DO I DOOOOOOOOOO" and there are a LOT of people who are just plain lying liars. I could tell lying liar stories that would make your hair curl. So they/we can be a bit... jaded to people's assurances. Which is not your problem, just an explanation for the resistance. At the end of the day, you can DO whatever you want with YOUR dog. Veterinarians and trainers just give you advice about what they think you SHOULD do, but they're not the boss of you.

FWIW, the vast majority of the time I initiate a conversation with an owner about delaying neutering with a large or giant breed puppy, I usually get a blank stare. So I think it's just pretty early in the cycle of it being a really common "out there" idea anyway.




> Bluntly speaking, most vets aren't going to tell you the truth about it. Either they're flat out uneducated -which is worrisome- or they want to make that almighty dollar, which is worse IMO. The media screams at people to do it, talks about all the /potential/ benefits, which are outweighed by the risks, but won't say a thing about the negatives. Ignorance is played on quite a lot when it comes to this.


Or, OR, rather than being uneducated they realize that most of what is out there is anecdata and opinion rather than true evidence for anything and truly believe that for now, the health benefits outweigh the risks. I think you'd also be surprised how many veterinarians DO talk to clients about this and that you are vastly underestimating how many JQP's want nothing more than to get a dog spayed or neutered ASAP. 

Also, I would like to make the same comment about the money that I make every time this issue comes up. Veterinarians generally do NOT make money off of spays and neuters. Most veterinarians LOSE money from spays and neuters; they are loss leaders. In order to keep them affordable for people, they have to be significantly discounted over what the actual costs are (unless they are performed in a manner that I am not personally comfortable with). I'm so weary of that misconception it just gets me a bit further and further down every time I see it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Things really went well until Sham was mature. I was hoping to make it until his 3rd birthday at least, but Jack is escalating and Sham can't even be jolly without Jack getting uppity so they spend a lot of time apart. Jonas doesn't like him no matter what, so at least some things will always be consistent. Sham's best bud is neutered and they've never had an issue.


That was part of the deal here, too. It made a HUGE difference in the harmony between Pip and Squash to have Squash neutered. It wasn't the only factor causing conflict, but it definitely contributed and getting Squash neutered definitely helped.


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## Dragonomine (Jun 4, 2013)

I have heard people saying nowadays to let them go into heat once before the female is spayed. Why? I think it's ridiculous. 2-4 months is the general time span for spaying. (they can go into heat between 4-6 months)


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Dragonomine said:


> I have heard people saying nowadays to let them go into heat once before the female is spayed. Why? I think it's ridiculous. 2-4 months is the general time span for spaying. (they can go into heat between 4-6 months)


Personally, I would do so if I had a female dog. I see SO many female dogs spayed before a first heat who have problems with really immature, tucked-up vulvas and redundant skin folds around the vulva that end up with a lifetime of dermatitis and vaginitis and intermittent UTIs. The effect on the rate of mammary cancer (which the old studies are being re-examined now anyway) is extremely minimal after just a single heat. 

Nobody ever listens to me, though.  Nobody wants to deal with a heat. And admittedly this is my anecdata.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Eh, even I'm not comfortable with spaying dogs at 2-4 months (GREAT age to spay a cat though!). Very few dogs go into heat that young, maybe only little tiny ones. If I were to spay before first heat I wouldn't do it until 6 months.


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

It's so funny how times change. Years ago people were considered irresponsible for not spaying and neutering and now it seems there are people who believe it's lazy and irresponsible to spay and neuter....

It absolutely doesn't matter what I think because everyone needs to make their own choices for what's best for them and their dogs. 

But here's what I think! 

My pets will all be spayed and neutered but I'll start doing it later. I've read up on both sides of the debate and that's the choice I've chosen. I adopted Buttercup at 6 months and raced her into the vet 3 days after I picked her up to spay her. I wish I would have waited but it had been 10 years since I had had a dog spayed and I was still under the impression that it really, really needed to be done before her first heat. Now I can't help but wonder if she would have filled out better if I would have waited.

I'll still spay and neuter because I don't want the liability of having an unaltered dog. I am a responsible owner. That doesn't change the fact that stuff happens. My little guy Jasper got out of our backyard after some workers pulled up the fence (we didn't know they had messed with the fence until we were looking for where he got out). He spent the night on the town. He's also slipped out of his collar once but luckily didnt go anywhere and now he uses a martingale. Buttercup hasn't had any adventures but I know that it's a possibility. One of those things that doesn't happen until it happens.
Also if something happened to me, I wouldn't want to leave unaltered dogs behind. I'd like to think that my responsible family members would take my dogs and care for them but the reality is that we don't know what would happen. There's also theft. If someone stole Buttercup before she was spayed there'd be a lot of OEB/Boxer mixes running around my town.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I wasn't the one who first said that threads like this get ruined. I was just going with what TWAB said. I don't think it's ruined, I think it's fun .
> 
> Look, it's awfully surprising that there are so many unwanted litters if it's SOOOOO easy to keep dogs away from each other. Either most people are brain-dead idiots, or it's just not that easy. I hear about several unwanted litters every year, and the owners are always "well, we knew she was in heat so we tried to keep her away from males, we just don't know what happened. . ." Maybe people really are that stupid. Although that doesn't bode well for the human race .


Well yea... If someone cannot keep intact dogs apart.... Yea they are that stupid. 

But I do not think it is so much as they cannot, but as they don't or don't care. They go through life that way. And when it comes to their dogs they just let whatever happens happen. I am not anti spay and neuter. I think those that go through life not caring should have altered dogs. IF they have dogs at all. But anyone that is reasonably observant of their dogs, and gives reasonable care, can EASILY preventable. 

And I earnestly believe you will have a better dog for it. You know aside from the physical health of it, I think dogs are far better off mentally as a rule, if they remain intact. I noticed that side of things long before I thought or heard much of the physical health side. With at least 80 percent of the training I do, being modification, rehab, mitigation, etc of problem behaviors and issues. Separation anxiety, weird fear and phobia issues, manic and obsessive behaviors SEEM to be much more common in altered dogs. I am not saying that intact dogs never get any of those conditions. I am saying that it is much less common. 

Everything works together. Mental and physical health are not independent of each other. They hold hands. Throw off hormone balances and weird things can happen to both body and mind. 

You are going to continue arguing around it. But... Fact is, anyone, can manage intact dogs during a heat cycle. It is not hard. People can choose not to. But that is a choice, not an obstacle....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Dragonomine said:


> I have heard people saying nowadays to let them go into heat once before the female is spayed. Why? I think it's ridiculous. 2-4 months is the general time span for spaying. (they can go into heat between 4-6 months)


Spaying and neutering that young is dooming the dog into a lifetime of potential issues. 
Spay a bitch that young and I will bet money you end up fighting uti's, have spay incontinence, etc for the life of the animal.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Dragonomine said:


> I have heard people saying nowadays to let them go into heat once before the female is spayed. Why? I think it's ridiculous. 2-4 months is the general time span for spaying. (they can go into heat between 4-6 months)


You could not PAY ME to spay a 2 month old puppy - I spayed Kylie before first heat (6 months) and that's absolutely the earliest I would EVER. Spay a 2 month old puppy? When a vet online and my vet are both agreeing that it's a HORRIBLE IDEA from a health stand point, and something promoted to be able to adopt puppies and kittens out earlier and at their most adoptable without having to rely on the public actually following through contracts, I'm believing it. 

The rest of the s/n debate may be a debate, but I see NO reason to spay 2 month old puppies for the benefit of the dog and have never heard ANYONE even TRY to make that argument.


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## Dragonomine (Jun 4, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Spaying and neutering that young is dooming the dog into a lifetime of potential issues.
> Spay a bitch that young and I will bet money you end up fighting uti's, have spay incontinence, etc for the life of the animal.


I disagree. I've had many females who were spayed before their first heat and didn't have any issues at all.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

As I said, I agree that 2-4 months is too young for dogs to be spayed/neutered. BUT, my mom's neighbor's dog was spayed at 3 months and she seems fine. No recurrent UTIs or spay incontinence (she's not very big, so I can't say about growth problems). And when the shelter could afford to spay/neuter before adoption, lots of puppies were being done that young and I haven't heard of any major problems from that. I know one male Lab who was adopted from the shelter/neutered about 8 weeks old, and he's lankier than I prefer in a male, but otherwise doesn't have any issues. And I don't know what his parents looked like so maybe lankiness runs in the family. I'd hardly call any dog altered that young "doomed".

So, why, if altering young has such terrible terrible effects on dogs, are cats so much better off when altered, especially young? Healthier, happier, better-behaved, longer-lived, etc.? I know cats and dogs are different, but you'd think mammals would have some similarities.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Dragonomine said:


> I disagree. I've had many females who were spayed before their first heat and didn't have any issues at all.


How many have you had that were spayed at 8 weeks old? Because vet up there is speaking of personal experience and the issues caused by an underdeveloped vagina, and it's a real, live, thing.


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## Dragonomine (Jun 4, 2013)

CptJack said:


> How many have you had that were spayed at 8 weeks old? Because vet up there is speaking of personal experience and the issues caused by an underdeveloped vagina, and it's a real, live, thing.


Our experiences differ. But to say you're going to have all these problems if God forbid you spay before they go in heat is ridiculous. Just my opinion, take it or leave it. I'm not going to sit here and argue my point. The OP asked for advice and I gave MY opinion. Have a great weekend.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Dragonomine said:


> Our experiences differ. But to say you're going to have all these problems if God forbid you spay before they go in heat is ridiculous. Just my opinion, take it or leave it. I'm not going to sit here and argue my point. The OP asked for advice and I gave MY opinion. Have a great weekend.


I only take issue when opinion is presented as fact. 

You too!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Dragonomine said:


> I disagree. I've had many females who were spayed before their first heat and didn't have any issues at all.



You can disagree all you want... That does not mean you are correct. Your experience with a few dogs that you have owned is ancedotal. 

There are a lot of vets out there that will no longer do early spays. Some shelters will not do early spays. Science says otherwise, regardless of your opinion. 

As for the age when a bitch comes into heat, you are off there as well. I suppose four months is possible. But I have never seen it or heard of it. And if I saw a dog that was claimed to have gone into heat at four months, I would want to know the dog's history. Chances are good it was found/shelter/ rescue dog and the age was mis guessed. 

Most dogs come into their first heat between 6 and 12 months. And the early side of that rang is not all that common. ESPECIALLY on breeds that are over 30 pounds when mature.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Even if we're talking anecdotal evidence, I'd still put more stock in the opinion of a vet who deals with hundreds of dogs a year than in someone who has only owned a few dogs.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Age as when to neuter aside... A vet from New Mexico has documented dramatic physical changes


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

The dog in the above photo is all the same bitch. If that is not dramatic I do not know what is...


Here is a male dog. Equally dramatic....










If something as simple as coat changes so much? What else changes. 

A puppy that is altered never develops the features of a mature dog of their breed and sex. 


And this is a THEORY of mine... No proof, just a THEORY.... I think altering a puppy, causes that dog to become mentally stuck in puppyhood. 

And going back on the quirky fears phobias, anxieties, etc. Another THEORY..... If you alter a puppy in a fear stage, it might get stuck in that fear stage.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also I will add, none of my PERSONAL dogs who were spayed before a heat had any of those problems, either. Nobody is saying omg you absolutely WILL have all these problems... but I've see it happen in enough numbers over the years that I personally think it's worth stacking the odds in your favor as much as possible if you have a choice.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Willowy said:


> You don't think "you shouldn't have a dog at all if you're not responsible enough to keep it intact" is hyperbole? _That's_ why these threads get ruined. There are high stakes in this matter. People who don't spay because they want to be "responsible" and overestimate their level of attentiveness results in unwanted puppies.


I can't find where someone told you your dogs should be dragged to the shelter or shot because you're irresponsible. You said that. That's hyperbole. I would imagine you're very familiar with using it.



sassafras said:


> That was part of the deal here, too. It made a HUGE difference in the harmony between Pip and Squash to have Squash neutered. It wasn't the only factor causing conflict, but it definitely contributed and getting Squash neutered definitely helped.


Yeah, I'd like to keep him intact, but I'm just not that die hard about it when it's causing such a strain. Shambles is definitely not the problem and the poor guy can't really be free around Jack without being bullied and now they're largely separated because Jack picks the crap with him. Thinking back on it I knew Jack has a history bullying intact males and submissive dogs, but I made a judgement error and thought since Sham grew up around him without issues for so long it would be a non issue. After Elsa I just don't think I want to deal with the potential of crate and rotate without trying other options first.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I can't find where someone told you your dogs should be dragged to the shelter or shot because you're irresponsible. You said that. That's hyperbole.


They said I shouldn't have a dog if I can't manage an intact dog. If I shouldn't have them, I guess I'd better get rid of them. There are very few options for elderly dogs if their owners can't keep them. Yes, hyperbole, on purpose, to make a point. I think that's standard debate technique.

I do think that neutering a male dog before puberty makes him "girly". But apparently some people prefer that :/.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dragonomine said:


> I have heard people saying nowadays to let them go into heat once before the female is spayed. Why? I think it's ridiculous. 2-4 months is the general time span for spaying. (they can go into heat between 4-6 months)


Mia was spayed at 11 months give or take per contract with breeder (or I would have waited longer- I waited as long as possible). She did not come into heat prior to that. Any future animals will go through at least one heat or two before spaying. Mia has mild I continence issues on occasion. 

I will still spay my females though. Males... I'm hesitant to neuter but may have to for a few reasons.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have seen some pretty drastic changes physically when dogs are neutered regardless of age. Beau went from being solid as a rock with a proper coat to a dog that gains weigh at the drop of a hat and has a ridiculously wooly coat. Nikki was the same and was so difficult to slim down. 

Summer is the one dog we've had that stayed trim and without a wooly coat. Rose did as well which makes me wonder why it seems like certain dogs come out worse than others. 

I really am not sure what I want to do with nextdog. But there's a good chance I'll have to pal it if I wat to do akc and that sucks they make you neuter.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Willowy said:


> They said I shouldn't have a dog if I can't manage an intact dog. If I shouldn't have them, I guess I'd better get rid of them. There are very few options for elderly dogs if their owners can't keep them. Yes, hyperbole, on purpose, to make a point. I think that's standard debate technique.
> 
> I do think that neutering a male dog before puberty makes him "girly". But apparently some people prefer that :/.


You quoted this, which I'll do again for you even though I know you're a fan of just being willingly obtuse: 



mashlee08 said:


> If you aren't responsible enough to own and manage an intact dog, then IMO you aren't responsible enough to own one.


If you aren't responsible enough to own and manage an intact dog, then you aren't responsible enough to own an INTACT dog. You don't have to state what you're talking about twice in a sentence, but there it's clarified for you. Then it went into a discussion of the difficulty of managing an intact dog, and apparently you're unable so you.. don't have to keep an intact animal. Not drag them out to be shot.

lol standard debate and hyperbole. You're not making a point, trust me.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

My opinion is that if you can't handle an intact male or an intact bitch GET THEM FIXED.

I too am tired of the whole "oh it happened before we got her spayed" or "i dont know what happened" well i know what happened, youre irresponsible! Its thats simple to me.

I always get my dogs spayed between 12-18months because i dont want to be one of the idiots with a crap load of litters. Like already said, YOU KNOW when a bitch is going into heat, so the "accidental litter" bs doesnt work with me. 


I refuse to spay my dogs before a year old. Its just a thing with me, im extremely paranoid something will happen. 

If you can't handle an intact dog, get it fixed. Not "you shouldn't own a dog if u cant handle an intact dog" thats probably the most ridiculous thing i have ever heard. 

And the whole "2%" thing is in that same boat of ridiculousness. It does only take ONE time to leave the door open or the latch unlocked on the crate. You should only have to go through a females first heat, maybe second. I dont see why you have to deal with it "only 2% of their life" when in reality you should only have to deal with it once or twice. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

I just have a question to some of the people who feel that dogs do not need to be spay or neutered. We are saying spay / neutered in general throughout the thread

but do you feel females should be left intact or just males?

cause I made a thread not to long ago and everyone seemed to agree about the risks of pyo for females and I think most people said they thought spaying a female was very important for health reasons. Males on the other hand do not have a lot of the issues females get so most people who do not like to have their pets fixed are mostly referring to the male dogs.

I don't think people really understand the threat of pyo if they choose not to spay. its a big deal. its gross its hard on the dog and its extremely life threatening. and its a REAL threat. 

Males like I said on the other hand they do not get the issues females get. From a health standpoint there is not really a lot of Cons to not neutering a male other then unwanted procreating and the rare chance of testicle cancer or prostate issues. but with females you have a VERY high % of them getting a serious issue from being left intact. I do not know many older intact female dogs that did not develop something serious. 


http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/120444-fix-not-fix-graphic.html


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Fade said:


> but do you feel females should be left intact or just males?
> 
> [/url]


I leave both dogs and bitches intact.

And I do not agree that Pyro is a big risk. I have been around intact bitches my entire life. My friends have intact bitches, family has intact bitches, people I am in dog organizations have intact bitches, etc. 

And the only place that I think Pyro is all that common is on the internet. I have never owned a bitch that got it. Nor has my Dad. He had lifetime exposure to Grandaddy's kennels, does not remember it there. Merlin's breeder has had one bitch with it in 35 years of breeding dogs.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> And the whole "2%" thing is in that same boat of ridiculousness. It does only take ONE time to leave the door open or the latch unlocked on the crate. You should only have to go through a females first heat, maybe second. I dont see why you have to deal with it "only 2% of their life" when in reality you should only have to deal with it once or twice.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


How about for the overall good health of your dog? Dealing with it a couple times a year is worth it to me.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Personally I will spay females but probably not until they are 2-3 at the earliest. All the breeders I have known well spay their females once they are no longer breeding them. 

I would prefer to keep males intact but may not have the option.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

We get so many intact females dogs and cats with Pyo every year at our clinic. and the people whose animals come in with pyo will tell me...oh yea my other dog got it too...so maybe your just lucky I dont think its a internet threat... I do feel its a big risk from personal experience. If the dogs don't get pyo its something else so many come in with mammary tumors and cancer 0.o Like I said I see a lot of dogs every day every week every year and I don't know many healthy intact older female dogs. 

Human women are starting to do precautionary hysterectomies now. I will be one of them in a few years. 

To me the spaying of dogs makes so much sense lol 

but I respect your opinion am just curious Its great all your dogs have been healthy all these years


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## swellmomma (Apr 21, 2012)

When I had my great pyr cross pups I had heard the same thing about waiting. I intended to wait until they were 18-24 months before getting them done. I had heard it could be detrimental to their growth etc to do it sooner. In the end it wasn't up to me anyway because I rehomed them, the girl was done at 8 months of age, the boy is 18 months now and it scheduled to be done next month. So one family waited and the other didn't. I am glad that the family that waited was the one that took the boy, he was my bigger concern with effects on growth etc.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Spaying and neutering that young is dooming the dog into a lifetime of potential issues.
> Spay a bitch that young and I will bet money you end up fighting uti's, have spay incontinence, etc for the life of the animal.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155 Figure I'll throw out an actual study for people regarding this.

As for my dog. I got her when she was 2 years old, already spayed. I was not told WHEN she was spayed... but she has NEVER had a UTI until just the other day. (She's 7 years old.  )


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Pyometra is very common in my experience in intact bitches _who have never beed bred_. In my anecdatal experience, pregnancy seems to have a protective effect and bitches who have had even one litter don't seem to have the same risk as dogs who have never had a litter. 

But for bitches who are never pregnant there are permanent, cumulative physically demonstrable changes that take place in the uterus, the "almost" inevitable conclusion of which is pyometra. You could not pay me all the money in the world to keep a pet dog I had no intention of breeding intact. Too many sad stories of seeing middle aged and senior bitches with pyometra and someone trying to decide whether to put them through surgery at their age. NOPE.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How about for the overall good health of your dog? Dealing with it a couple times a year is worth it to me.


My bitches are always spayed at 1 year old or after. Also, by experience working in a vet (sister is a vet, i like to help out here and there) it was shocking the amount of times females came i with problems after spay.

I always have more than 1 dog. As soon as my females are old enough, i spay them if they haven already been spayed by a rescue. As soon as my males are old enough i neuter them. I sometimes do leave my males intact only if my female is spayed and i have no other males in my house. 

I always spay my females as i believe its healthier from experience. Plus i cant keep my girl(s) in their crates or inside while theyre in heat, i dont think thats fair at all. Its so much healthier for them, less risk to spay a female. Im sorry but my dogs are my babies, and i will forever spay my babies to keep them safe. 



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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't know if I'll ever spay or neuter again, but if I do it won't be until well after the dog has reached sexual maturity.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

So as I mentioned, we are waiting until Annabel's two years old to spay. However, I heard the same thing sassafras mentioned about unbred dogs being more prone to pyo. I'm curious, though. I've been reading about a "safer spay" option that just removes the ovaries and leaves the uterus. Has anyone done this with their bitches? Or any vets who do this? We obviously have a lot of time before we really need to think of it, but I was curious about it.

Also, I know a lot of people say to wait until after the first heat, which will be the case for us. I know some chances for issues increase at every heat, but is a second heat going to make THAT much of a difference? We might not need to even worry about it, Annabel's mum and grandma both had really late heats (here's hoping), but I'm wondering how exponentially the risks go up with each heat.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I see concrete health benefits for the bitch, in spaying after sexual maturity. So, likely I would do so with any female dog I had. 

I don't see those health benefits for males, so likely I wouldn't bother.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

You do not need to breed a bitch before you spay her. Biggest myth


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

> When all three musculoskeletal disorders were combined to determine the risk of an early neutered dog acquiring at least one of these disorders, there was a risk of about 25% in males and 20% in females, compared to a 5-6% risk in intact dogs. While still preliminary, these results are of serious importance to breeders and owners of Goldens. Of the cancers, lymphoma was significantly increased in both female and male dogs neutered at or before 1 year.


That is from this  page. I had a copy of another research paper and I can't find it now, I wish I could, it was a good read. I have no problem with people who (responsibly) keep intact dogs, but the irresponsible people bug me because THEY are the reason that pets are getting spayed and neutered so early that they get problems. I know one chocolate lab female that was neutered, I think they said at around 4 months and she is just about 2 now, overweight and has already had surgery on both knees. That dog seems like a poster pet for the research I read. 

We did a lot of research when we got Caeda to decide when/if we would get her spayed. We wanted to wait until she'd had a couple of heats and was full grown. Unfortunately, when she was about 9mo we got highjacked by a male dog. Seriously, I swear we weren't irresponsible, we were just stupid and still learning how stealthy and fast a male dog can be when he smells a bitch in heat....We looked, he wasn't there, turned and closed the door behind us with Caeda on tether, literally 3 seconds, he showed up and they were tied. We got her spayed ASAP just in case it took. I wish we could have waited longer, I often wonder if that has anything to do with her being a runt...

In the spirit of the Great Speuter Debate, here is a rough recreation of a really stupid spay/neuter convo I was part of regarding our foster Dexter with the lady that suggested we help rehome him (it was an informal foster, not through the shelter):
Me: He is still acting up some, a little spazzy and still shows some male-dog aggression, but overall is improving
Lady: Well haven't you neutered him
Me: No, he's 2 and we're not in a hurry, we'll neuter him eventually, but there is no urgent need. 
Lady: I wouldn't have suggested you take him if I had thought you wouldn't take care of him
Me: What? He has come a long way with us 
(btw, he used to be badly hand shy, guard toys, locations, food sometimes etc, it had all stopped)
Lady: Well he won't have those aggression problems if you just cared for your pets
Me: Seriously, what do you mean, we're taking very good care of him, plus I'm doing training with him and some desensitization and such, he is coming along, it doesn't happen overnight. 
(I was being purposefully obtuse by this point....I was pretty dumbfounded and had a hard time believing what I was hearing)
Lady: If you had bothered caring for him enough to neuter him you wouldn't have these problems. 

Basically the conversation kept going in the same thread for about 5 minutes or so, ending with me just walking away because trying to politely end the conversation wasn't working. Even as I walked away I was being degraded loudly for "not caring for my pets" specifically because of the lack of neutering. Apparently I'm no better than the people that left Dexter (and our other foster Diesel) tethered in their yards for most of their lives. Lets just say my tongue was bleeding from biting it so hard by the time I walked off. 

Ok, I do see that neutering can potentially make a difference in aggression, and energy levels of a dog, sure testosterone does lots of things to humans, and likely to dogs as well. But seriously, I had two problems. 1:Not neutering equating with not caring, and 2:surgery as a complete substitute for training and desensitization. I've heard TONS of things on the s/n debate, but these two were new arguments to me.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Effisia said:


> So as I mentioned, we are waiting until Annabel's two years old to spay. However, I heard the same thing sassafras mentioned about unbred dogs being more prone to pyo. I'm curious, though. I've been reading about a "safer spay" option that just removes the ovaries and leaves the uterus. Has anyone done this with their bitches? Or any vets who do this? We obviously have a lot of time before we really need to think of it, but I was curious about it.


I've heard the opposite, OSS or ovary-sparing spay. It is supposed to leave the bitch with the benefits of hormones without the danger of pyometra and without the possibility of pregnancy. I don't see a point to taking the ovaries but leaving the uterus, honestly. I _think_ that Emily (a poster here) had this done or is considering having it done for her Malinois, Blossom. I have zero personal experience with it but I think there are some repro vets who are starting to do it more commonly. 



> Also, I know a lot of people say to wait until after the first heat, which will be the case for us. I know some chances for issues increase at every heat, but is a second heat going to make THAT much of a difference? We might not need to even worry about it, Annabel's mum and grandma both had really late heats (here's hoping), but I'm wondering how exponentially the risks go up with each heat.


With mammary cancer it is the number of heats, NOT the age of the dog that traditionally has been believed to affect the risk of mammary cancer specifically, so it doesn't matter what age she goes into her first heat. I'm sorry I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head but it is really quite small for a single heat, probably less than 5%? After a certain number of heats (around 4-5, again sorry I don't have the actual numbers right now and I'm going from memory) it maxes out around 25% and doesn't increase with subsequent heats. Some of the research regarding this is being questioned and re-examined, though.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

A bitch does noot need to be bred before being spayed. Thats a big myth. 

Spaying and neutering after sexuality maturity is your best bet. Spaying your bitch at 2 years by a good vet will be the best 


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> A bitch does noot need to be bred before being spayed. Thats a big myth.


Who is saying that she does?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Thanks, sassafras! I grew up hearing that you have to spay/neuter your dogs as early as possible if you're going to be a good owner, so this is all new to us. But with a giant breed, I'm not taking chances. Besides the fact that it's in our breeder contract. Heh. 

I've also recently had some experience with someone who never fixed their dogs (which were bought through newspaper ads), and just lets them breed because "puppies are cute". I do understand why there is such strong advocacy for desexing when there are so many people like that out there, or people just out to make a buck with no respect or love for the breed or dogs at all, really. So very, very frustrating.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> A bitch does noot need to be bred before being spayed. Thats a big myth.
> 
> Spaying and neutering after sexuality maturity is your best bet. Spaying your bitch at 2 years by a good vet will be the best
> 
> ...



No one said this....

But I will say this.... A bitch does not need to be bred to remain intact....


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> No one said this....
> 
> But I will say this.... A bitch does not need to be bred to remain intact....


"Unbred dogs being more prone to pyro" so i thought id just mention a bitch doesnt need to be bred before being spayed. 


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Doglover65 said:


> "Unbred dogs being more prone to pyro" so i thought id just mention a bitch doesnt need to be bred before being spayed.


I don't think you really read what I said if that's what you got out of it. :/


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> They said I shouldn't have a dog if I can't manage an intact dog. If I shouldn't have them, I guess I'd better get rid of them. There are very few options for elderly dogs if their owners can't keep them. Yes, hyperbole, on purpose, to make a point. I think that's standard debate technique.
> 
> I do think that neutering a male dog before puberty makes him "girly". But apparently some people prefer that :/.



I don't think anyone said this.... 

But I will.... If Someone is NOT capable of managing an intact dog without having an accidental litter, they should not have a dog. 

And Willowy, let me ask you this....

You said you are absent minded... 

1) Are you capable of remembering to not leave your dogs in a hot car with the windows rolled up? 

2) are you capable on preventing your dog from running out in the street and getting hit by a car?

3) are you capable of ensuring your dog does not get in the cleaning supplies and eating a can of draino? 

4) are you capable of ensuring your dog does not get a hold of a bottle of aspirin and eating them? 

5) are you capable of ensuring your dog does not chew an electric cord, electrocuting themselves and possibly burning down your house? 


IF you can successfully mitigate those five things for the life of a dog, managing an intact dog will take zero effort. 

And as ridiculous as some may think it might be, it is still just 2 percent of a bitches life.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> "Unbred dogs being more prone to pyro" so i thought id just mention a bitch doesnt need to be bred before being spayed.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



That is Ancedotal... And while I RESPECT THE HELL out of Sassafras's learned opinion.... Heck I have asked her more than once to move down here, open a practice, and she would be my vet. And she may think I am kidding, but I am not. If she showed up practicing veterinary medicine within 50 miles of me, she would be my vet. My critters would be her first clients. 

But she has told me over and over, she ain't moving where there is no snow.... So unless I can figure out how to start an ice age and put six months of snow on the ground in Florida, it ain't happening. 

I also respect the things Fade has experienced at her work. 

But I am going to go by my experience.... And while it is ancedotal as well, is quite different. I have known in my almost 46 years ( my birthday is the 28th of this Month. I am hard to buy for so forum members should just send cash)
is quite different... Growing up the son, grandson and great grandson of men that bred dogs. Having formed lifelong friendships with breeders, etc. I am hard pressed to name four pyro dogs. But I can dang sure name some spayed cancer dogs. 

I can also name a bunch of intact bitches that lived long lives with no litters and no pyro. 


I had a redbone bitch, Bonnie, that never bred and died in her sleep at 14. She never bred because while she was out of a great bloodline, she could not run a deer or hog out of a paper sack. But I kept her because she was sweet and comical. And I had no where to go to her. Only people that want Redbones most times are hunters. I sell her to another hunter, she gets a bullet in her head and I get a reputation for selling off sour dogs. So I kept her. I would let her run with the pack a few times a year. But she was not running game. She was just romping around in the woods. 
Quite by accident when she was about 6 I found out she had a knack for bloodtrailing wounded game. She took us to a lot of downed game that would have otherwise been lost. 


Right now I have a Lab Puppy that will never be bred and never be spayed. 

If there comes a day that I experience pyro, I might change my tune but at this stage in my life a single case of pyro, with all the bitches I have known that went unbred and unspayed, is going to really seem like a fluke.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

WHY DO YOU HATE ME *runs off crying*


Seriously, I wonder if there are breed differences. Up here it's always these wee companion dogs that come in with pyo. Probably the biggest dog I've personally seen with pyo was a sheltie. 

Or maybe it's the snow.


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## Aska (Jun 9, 2013)

Hm. My males got neutered after they had reached sexual maturity- I neutered them at one year. No problems with that, they lived long happy lives. A female of mine had her uterus taken because of cancer at age twelve (so technically she got spayed, right?) and no problems with that, though she only lived for six months after it. 

I've heard about many people spaying before the bitch goes in heat, around four-six months, same with males. I think it's pretty early, the dog hasn't reached sexual maturity so is it guaranteed it will mature properly? I wouldn't know.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> That is Ancedotal... And while I RESPECT THE HELL out of Sassafras's learned opinion.... Heck I have asked her more than once to move down here, open a practice, and she would be my vet. And she may think I am kidding, but I am not. If she showed up practicing veterinary medicine within 50 miles of me, she would be my vet. My critters would be her first clients.
> 
> But she has told me over and over, she ain't moving where there is no snow.... So unless I can figure out how to start an ice age and put six months of snow on the ground in Florida, it ain't happening.
> 
> ...


Im glad you have had good experiences with intact dogs, sadly i have not, but i feel like i have good reasons as to why (always owning another male) i have come across many people who come in with their girl about spay complications and it is quite sad. Sometimes im stuck when trying to make the right decision. It always depends i what i own at the current time. Currently i have 3 dogs. A German shepherd , Great Dane and a doberman. My dobe and shepherd and my Danes a male. My male is intact, because he is 1, and because he is intact both my females are spayed as an accidental litter would probably send me into oblivion, its really my worst nightmare. My dobe girl was spayed when she was almost 2 and she has been fine, my gsd came spayed from a rescue and im still deciding if i want to neuter my male right away or wait.

I think if i didnt have my male id still neuter as my dogs are always aroud other dogs and i couldnt imagine having to get my girls on solitary confinement while theyre in heat  just for my lifestyle, spaying was always a must. Also, when i get my dogs from breeders im under a spay/neuter (non-breeding) contract, and when i rescue, they are already spayed/neutered. Its just always worked out that way.

If someone doesnt spay/neuter their dogs i sometimes question where your dogs are from. unless of course theyre owned by a reputable breeder, a co-ownership or a show dog, other than that, i question. 


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

sassafras said:


> WHY DO YOU HATE ME *runs off crying*
> 
> 
> Seriously, I wonder if there are breed differences. Up here it's always these wee companion dogs that come in with pyo. Probably the biggest dog I've personally seen with pyo was a sheltie.
> ...


...Or care differences? One problem with all the anecdotal accounts and observational studies on this matter is that so MANY intervening life and care experiences happen over the years that it can be very hard to tease apart the exact set of circumstances that lead to the findings. Throw in a healthy dose of genetics and also consider that the "control" and "study" groups are not randomized in the least and the waters get even more murky.

Intuitively it makes sense that sex hormones are important, but none of the current scientific studies provide convincing evidence through "sound" methodology to support or refute this concept. I'm in the camp that they are important, if for nothing beyond correct muscular development (I prefer a properly filled out dog or bitch) and I will now choose to speuter after sexual maturity. 

My anecdotal experience does not support the idea that early or late spay/neuter or remaining intact has any effect on the life course of the dog in question. I've had both intact and neutered males live to 18 years and 15 years and be unbelievably healthy the entire time. I've had intact and neutered males be generally unhealthy and die young. I've had similar experience with bitches and I've had dogs "fixed" early (6 weeks) and late (5 years) and everything in between and I have not discovered ANY overarching trend in health and longevity between the two groups. The only pattern I have seen is that dogs who came from breeders that emphasized genetic health or were adopted from "tough" conditions (mutts born to ferals or street dogs) tended to be far healthier than BYB dogs or generic shelter mutts of dubious origins.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Aska said:


> Hm. My males got neutered after they had reached sexual maturity- I neutered them at one year. No problems with that, they lived long happy lives. A female of mine had her uterus taken because of cancer at age twelve (so technically she got spayed, right?) and no problems with that, though she only lived for six months after it.
> 
> I've heard about many people spaying before the bitch goes in heat, around four-six months, same with males. I think it's pretty early, the dog hasn't reached sexual maturity so is it guaranteed it will mature properly? I wouldn't know.


I guess it all depends on the breed. I have never owned a small dog so correct me if i am wrong, but im guessing they can be spayed/neutered earlier than larger breeds. 4 months is still pretty young though for any breed, but again i could be wrong


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Pyometra is very common in my experience in intact bitches _who have never beed bred_. In my anecdatal experience, pregnancy seems to have a protective effect and bitches who have had even one litter don't seem to have the same risk as dogs who have never had a litter.
> 
> But for bitches who are never pregnant there are permanent, cumulative physically demonstrable changes that take place in the uterus, the "almost" inevitable conclusion of which is pyometra. You could not pay me all the money in the world to keep a pet dog I had no intention of breeding intact. Too many sad stories of seeing middle aged and senior bitches with pyometra and someone trying to decide whether to put them through surgery at their age. NOPE.


I respect what sassafras has shared. 

And wanted to add my own experiences feel it is unhealthy un altered bitches that are susceptible to pyometra, non functional heat cycles that do no cleanse the female body, false pregnancy over hormonal.. That there is a pre existing health condition that makes for the susceptibility . Seen bitches 2 years and up succumb to pyometra, and the few that I have known have been showing signs of , don't put off a strong scent to attract males, some who had been attempted to be bred unable to conceive through natural or artificial insemination, never had a complete heat cycle. They were not healthy in the reproduction system from the start. And it wasn't a surprise that there was previous history in the bitch line for reproduction weakness as well.. 
Am more strong from my experiences Being apart of many Bitches who have lived extended senior years intact never bred, nor attempted to be bred, who were always healthy full heat cycles even at 14 - 15 years old.. It makes me think.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> WHY DO YOU HATE ME *runs off crying*
> 
> 
> Seriously, I wonder if there are breed differences. Up here it's always these wee companion dogs that come in with pyo. Probably the biggest dog I've personally seen with pyo was a sheltie.
> ...


That explains VOLUMES... I do not associate with Foo foo dog people.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

My female malamute mix was neutered at around 5 months old and died at 8 years old,my Newfie that was neutered at a year old died at 12.
I also noticed my parents rescued stray cat(that was found badly injured) that was late neutered, lived to 16,despite being a purely outside cat,while the other male mostly indoor cat that was early neutered died at 14. Also the late neutered stray was much more muscular,stayed athletic at a older age, and had a more easy going temperament.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Foresthund said:


> My female malamute mix was neutered at around 5 months old and died at 8 years old,my Newfie that was neutered at a year old died at 12.
> I also noticed my parents rescued stray cat(that was found badly injured) that was late neutered, lived to 16,despite being a purely outside cat,while the other male mostly indoor cat that was early neutered died at 14. Also the late neutered stray was much more muscular,stayed athletic at a older age, and had a more easy going temperament.


I am not sure the rules for dogs and cats are the same. And personally I do not care, Because I am not going to deal with an intact female cat in the house purely because of the irritation factor. And not going to deal with a male intact cat on the pissing and spraying factor.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Not that sure,I wouldn't want a intact female cat either,but with males I might want to neuter at 8 months at least. Also females are generally longer lived anyways. I tend to adopt cats though,so their already neutered.
Neutered female and male cats will mark in the house as well.


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## TRDmom (Mar 3, 2013)

Generally, as long as you can keep your female confined when in heat or your male under control when females are 'calling' him, around a year should be OK to spay/neuter (or two years for 100+ pound dogs). My pup was about 8 months when he was neutered (estimated to be about 60lbs when full grown. He was 55lbs at the time). I didn't set a date in stone and that's just how it worked out. I wanted him to have his hormones while growing... sometimes I wish I waited a bit longer, but it was probably for the best. No matter. 

One more thing. Life span depends on diet, exercise/weight (obese or malnurished dogs obviously aren't in great health), breeding/genetic background and luck. Some people are concerned about over vaccinating and preventives for heartworms and fleas/ticks. There have been food recalls, poor breeding practices, car accidents, etc.. A number of things determine how long a dog will live. Just try your best and enjoy them while they're here!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PatriciafromCO said:


> I respect what sassafras has shared.
> 
> And wanted to add my own experiences feel it is unhealthy un altered bitches that are susceptible to pyometra, non functional heat cycles that do no cleanse the female body, false pregnancy over hormonal.. That there is a pre existing health condition that makes for the susceptibility . Seen bitches 2 years and up succumb to pyometra, and the few that I have known have been showing signs of , don't put off a strong scent to attract males, some who had been attempted to be bred unable to conceive through natural or artificial insemination, never had a complete heat cycle. They were not healthy in the reproduction system from the start. And it wasn't a surprise that there was previous history in the bitch line for reproduction weakness as well..
> Am more strong from my experiences Being apart of many Bitches who have lived extended senior years intact never bred, nor attempted to be bred, who were always healthy full heat cycles even at 14 - 15 years old.. It makes me think.


When you think of how some women have problems like endometriosis or PCOS and others never have any gyno problems, it makes sense that individual dogs would have individual risks. 

But all I know is, my experiences with older intact, nonbred bitches have all been bad and I'm waaaaay too paranoid about it to go down that road.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

We have cats and dogs of all sizes get pyo...I have heard of people never experiencing it before...so its curious why we have so much in our area...and some people never have a issue. Maybe we are just a clinic that gets a lot of issues. 

On the other note I think that the outcome of a spay and the side effects REALLY is effected greatly by the vets experience. I can tell ya Ive watched vets take 2 hours doing a simple spay with a unbelievable amount of blood loss. Which leads me to reason that maybe some people see more side effects like incontinence and stuff has to do with how well the procedure is performed? I could be wrong I did not go to vet school this is strictly a theory from experience. The doctor I work for we never get not once have had a spay come back with incontinence. but he is so GOOD at performing the surgery its amazing to watch the difference between his surgeries and the other doctors that I occasionally work with. We have had dogs stop breathing from reactions to anesthesia and he just calmly gets the supplies not rushed. and we never lost a dog. Where I am sitting there OMG HURRY UP ITS NOT BREATHING / PANIC lol Experience


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And Willowy, let me ask you this....
> 
> You said you are absent minded...
> 
> ...


Is there really anyone who has nevereverever had a dog get loose even once in their entire life? Yes, my dogs have gotten loose a couple times because I'm not perfect. As several others have stated has happened to them as well. I'm lucky they weren't hit. 

I don't keep toxic cleaning supplies in the house. I keep meds in the medicine cabinet, which seems to work since dogs are short and don't have thumbs, but it isn't locked or anything. Penny did eat a whole bottle of cat vitamins when she was a puppy. 

If I had a dog who was hell-bent on chewing cords, I don't know what I'd do. I currently take no precautions about cords.

Hot cars aren't really the same situation. My dogs are not the sort I could forget are in the car . 

I've never lost any pet to an accident, if that's what you're getting at. But there have been a few times that was due to just plain luck. Because very few people are even kind of perfect, and I'm not one of them.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Interesting side note, when Merlin was getting his annual two weeks ago, I was having him tested for Brucellosis. As he will likely be breeding this fall. My vet asked me why I was doing this test, as you do not see brucellosis too much any more. I said because Merlin is not coupling with a bitch that does not have a negative test for Brucellosis in the last ninety days. 

My vet said, as the dog owner you have a whole lot less to worry about as the bitch owner.. He said on the reproductive side if you see transmission of infection it is usually dog to bitch.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Is there really anyone who has nevereverever had a dog get loose even once in their entire life? Yes, my dogs have gotten loose a couple times because I'm not perfect. As several others have stated has happened to them as well. I'm lucky they weren't hit.
> 
> I don't keep toxic cleaning supplies in the house. I keep meds in the medicine cabinet, which seems to work since dogs are short and don't have thumbs, but it isn't locked or anything. Penny did eat a whole bottle of cat vitamins when she was a puppy.
> 
> ...


Actually yes,one time my Rott broke through a cat door when I was gone and got loose. Despite being intact and only two years old he stayed by my house waiting for me and never found or looked for a female to breed with. So yes accidents can happen,but its still very unlikely unless your male dog is loose all the time. Females in heat roaming around is actually pretty rare in many areas,as well as most dogs are neutered.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Foresthund said:


> Actually yes,one time my Rott broke through a cat door when I was gone and got loose. Despite being intact he stayed by my house waiting for me and never found or looked for a female to breed with. So yes accidents can happen,but its still very unlikely unless your male dog is loose all the time. Females in heat roaming around is actually pretty rare in many areas,as well as most dogs are neutered.


Well beyond that, how unlikely is a breakout that coincides with the minute time a dog is in heat? And in your neighbourhood or home? Frankly, my more immediate problem if that happens -and more likely result!- is that they get hit by a car and killed.

That said, no. I've never had an escape. I've had dogs go out front but, well, recall, man. Yes, even from bitches in heat. Or prey. COULD it fail someday? Absolutely, but in that case my immediate issues are the dog staying alive given the road right out front, and dealing with a bunch of far more dangerous things that will prevent them LIVING long enough to mate.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> But I will.... If Someone is NOT capable of managing an intact dog without having an accidental litter, they should not have a dog.


I'm sure most of us here are capable of maintaining an intact dog but do I want to? Male, perhaps. Female, not really. I would rather neuter/spay late. I really do care for my pets' health but, you know, I don't want to maintain an intact dog so I don't. 

Accidents happen and I'm terrible unlucky. There are no fences here. Tie outs break in front of my eyes, electric fences don't hold, dogs rip leashes out of people's hands, recall fails... blahblahblah. Goodness knows what those lousy neighborhood dogs are up to! Maybe its just me but unless you are pretty serious about your dog (DFers...) then your dog doesn't have perfect recall. Then you probably don't watch your dog on the tie out. Then you probably don't check the fence everyday. There are a lot of people who wouldn't properly manage an intact male or female.


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

> But I will.... If Someone is NOT capable of managing an intact dog without having an accidental litter, they should not have a dog.


Does no one else think this is a huge blanket statement? Isn't there a sticky thread on here called beating Murphy's law? I personally don't see anything wrong with saying "I'm worried about something happening with my bitch when she's in heat, therefore I'm going to spay her before she escapes/gets sick/etc". Because bottom line, $%&* happens. You could argue that in the long run health wise, murphy's law wise, it is MORE responsible to spay a bitch. With pyro, with escape risks, with pregnancy risks, you wonder when does you're own pride get in the way of whats best for the dog? Not all bitches get pyro, or run away or get pregnant if you're careful, but at what point does it become what's actually best for your bitch, over your pride of management for having an intact bitch? Having a better coat is not worth having a really sick dog in the future for me. 


Last week I saw a really cute pitbull out behind the balcony of my townhouse. She had tags and a collar so I went and grabbed my slip leash to catch her before she had the chance of getting hurt. After I caught her, her owner came running up saying "I'm really sorry, she's in heat and she ran out the door before we could stop her!". 

I'm not going to spay Ammy until she's a year-year and half. But I am going spay her, because why tempt fate? With so many variables with not spaying, it's not worth it to worry about that plus any other myriad of issues that may come up in her life time.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I've heard the opposite, OSS or ovary-sparing spay. It is supposed to leave the bitch with the benefits of hormones without the danger of pyometra and without the possibility of pregnancy. I don't see a point to taking the ovaries but leaving the uterus, honestly. I _think_ that Emily (a poster here) had this done or is considering having it done for her Malinois, Blossom. I have zero personal experience with it but I think there are some repro vets who are starting to do it more commonly.
> 
> 
> 
> With mammary cancer it is the number of heats, NOT the age of the dog that traditionally has been believed to affect the risk of mammary cancer specifically, so it doesn't matter what age she goes into her first heat. I'm sorry I don't remember the exact numbers off the top of my head but it is really quite small for a single heat, probably less than 5%? After a certain number of heats (around 4-5, again sorry I don't have the actual numbers right now and I'm going from memory) it maxes out around 25% and doesn't increase with subsequent heats. Some of the research regarding this is being questioned and re-examined, though.


We left Manna's ovaries in 
we got her uterus removed at 6 months but left the ovaries for hormone/growth stuff. She has since began puberty (can I strangle her now?) but I never have to deal with her bleeding everywhere or accidentally getting pregnant. I plan to never have her in a situation where a coupling can happen but you can't plan for everything.
-dogs breaking in through the fence (under, through or over)
-random people letting your dog out (There's a group of kids here that do that so I had to put a combination lock on the gate) 
-my dog going under, through or over the fence (knowing Manna, probably through the fence) 
-ect



It's hard to find a vet willing to do that though


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kyndall54 said:


> Does no one else think this is a huge blanket statement? Isn't there a sticky thread on here called beating Murphy's law? I personally don't see anything wrong with saying "I'm worried about something happening with my bitch when she's in heat, therefore I'm going to spay her before she escapes/gets sick/etc". Because bottom line, $%&* happens. You could argue that in the long run health wise, murphy's law wise, it is MORE responsible to spay a bitch. With pyro, with escape risks, with pregnancy risks, you wonder when does you're own pride get in the way of whats best for the dog? Not all bitches get pyro, or run away or get pregnant if you're careful, but at what point does it become what's actually best for your bitch, over your pride of management for having an intact bitch? Having a better coat is not worth having a really sick dog in the future for me.
> 
> 
> .


Not a blanket statement... Just a fact.... All of the things I listed take more thought, management, and care than managing an intact dog. 

There is no ego or "pride of management". It is simply healthier for the dog... So it is in the bitches best interest to remain intact.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I had planned on getting Sam neutered at 18 months to 2 years, but lately I'm starting to consider just keeping him intact unless I find I have a reason to neuter. I manage him very closely so I'm not too concerned about him getting loose and finding a female in heat and I know plenty of people who have intact males with no plans to breed them that manage them just fine.

I think a lot of it has to do with how you handle your dogs and what you're willing to put up with.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Not a blanket statement... Just a fact.... All of the things I listed take more thought, management, and care than managing an intact dog.
> 
> There is no ego or "pride of management". It is simply healthier for the dog... So it is in the bitches best interest to remain intact.


Being intact is not in the dogs best interest if it is going to be reproducing. The average family is not suited for intact dogs. There are kids or spouses that might let them out of the kennel without thinking about it, or just an airheaded oops. I've known of reputable breeders having oopsies. They should know more than anyone how to keep intact dogs. There is nothing wrong or irresponsible about fixing your dog. Maybe you had bad experiences health wise, but many people do not. Maybe it's easy for you to manage, but that's you. Not everyone is suited, and to say you shouldn't own a dog otherwise excludes a lot of people from owning dogs. I don't mean disrespect, but I cannot agree with your "fact".


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Being intact is not in the dogs best interest if it is going to be reproducing. The average family is not suited for intact dogs. There are kids or spouses that might let them out of the kennel without thinking about it, or just an airheaded oops. I've known of reputable breeders having oopsies. They should know more than anyone how to keep intact dogs. There is nothing wrong or irresponsible about fixing your dog. Maybe you had bad experiences health wise, but many people do not. Maybe it's easy for you to manage, but that's you. Not everyone is suited, and to say you shouldn't own a dog otherwise excludes a lot of people from owning dogs. I don't mean disrespect, but I cannot agree with your "fact".


The average family may not be equipped to handle both genders of intact dogs. 

Frankly speaking, my adult intact males involve NO extra handling or care, even when our supposedly spayed Boston went into heat. They're rare in that. The management involved in keeping intact males from knocking up a female dog they don't live with, or a female dog from being impregnanted by a strange dog is not hard. They're not subtle when they're in heat, you see the period they're receptive coming, and frankly if you can't contain your dog you really SHOULDN'T have dogs, period. 

I spayed my females - didn't wanna deal with it. Not wanting to deal with it isn't bad. 

Implying that it's hard to do? Baloney. I've seen ******** who kept their dogs outside 24X7, never saw a vet, erratically FED the dog old roy, and never taught a dog to SIT that managed it just fine. It's JUST NOT THAT HARD. They're not cats or rabbits.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

In all the years I have had dogs, I have never had a neutered male and Susie was the first dog I ever had that was spayed. The only reason I am going to get Kris spayed is I want to do Agility with her and her seasons would make it awkward. Just because they are not neutered or spayed does not mean that they are going to get pregnant or the males are going to be running off looking for females. I know for most people it is more for their convenience than anything and I agree it is easier with females to have them spayed. Males, I can not really see that they have to be done.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Being intact is not in the dogs best interest if it is going to be reproducing. The average family is not suited for intact dogs. There are kids or spouses that might let them out of the kennel without thinking about it, or just an airheaded oops. I've known of reputable breeders having oopsies. They should know more than anyone how to keep intact dogs. There is nothing wrong or irresponsible about fixing your dog. Maybe you had bad experiences health wise, but many people do not. Maybe it's easy for you to manage, but that's you. Not everyone is suited, and to say you shouldn't own a dog otherwise excludes a lot of people from owning dogs. I don't mean disrespect, but I cannot agree with your "fact".


Agree or not, the fact is the same.... 
Your comments just strengthened my statements. If you cannot manage spouses and children opening kennels and letting dogs out, it makes no difference intact or not. If the dog does not get pregnant it might get hit, stolen, bite a neighbor, etc. Poor management is poor management and a bitch getting pregnant is way down on the list of all the bad things that can happen. 

If a family or owner can manage a dog or dogs, it doesn't matter. If they cannot, well it does not matter either.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Agree or not, the fact is the same....
> Your comments just strengthened my statements. If you cannot manage spouses and children opening kennels and letting dogs out, it makes no difference intact or not. If the dog does not get pregnant it might get hit, stolen, bite a neighbor, etc. Poor management is poor management and a bitch getting pregnant is way down on the list of all the bad things that can happen.
> 
> If a family or owner can manage a dog or dogs, it doesn't matter. If they cannot, well it does not matter either.


I was trying to figure out a way to say this, but you nailed it. It's not about if the dog is actually intact or not, it's about the general responsibility of keeping a dog safely contained to avoid accidents and "potentially making babies" whether they are in season or not. I am not very good at explaining these things.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

I'm sorry but i think its unfair to say its "fact" when its really an opinion. 
Opinions get confused a lot in topics like spay and neuter or cropping and docking. To say "its a fact that a bitch (or a male) is better off intact" when its really an opinion in my eyes is bogus. There are so many studies that say its better, and so many studies that say its worse. 

Like i said, my opinion is that if a bitch isnt used for breeding, she should be spayed. But to say "the fact is.." When its nothing more than an opinion is unfair. 

And rather you can handle an intact dog or not, that is also an opinion. I think a lot more people would listen to what you have to say if you said "in my opinion" because the truth is that its all just an opinion. Everyone has different opinions as to why spaying and neutering our dogs is good or bad. There are "facts" to both sides, against and for spaying/neutering. People are entitled to their opinions on spaying and neutering and cropping and docking and dewclaws or not and this and that and the other thing. Sorry, but there are no "facts" that one is better than the other, just opinions. 


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> I'm sorry but i think its unfair to say its "fact" when its really an opinion.
> Opinions get confused a lot in topics like spay and neuter or cropping and docking. To say "its a fact that a bitch (or a male) is better off intact" when its really an opinion in my eyes is bogus. There are so many studies that say its better, and so many studies that say its worse.
> 
> Like i said, my opinion is that if a bitch isnt used for breeding, she should be spayed. But to say "the fact is.." When its nothing more than an opinion is unfair.
> ...




How is it not a fact? 



Every day you manage a dog:

To keep it from rushing out the front door.

To keep it from getting a hold of medications.

To keep it from getting into cleaning chemicals

etc

etc 

etc



And if you have a bitch.... you are talking about 2 percent of her life...

IF you have a dog, it is ONLY if you have a bitch reasonably close. How close? Very close. We worked dogs with a bitch in heat in direct presence this morning. As a distraction. Not one. Not one dog, one single time, went off task to approach the bitch. 



It just ain't that big of a deal. 



It may not fit into your ideal


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How is it not a fact?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To say "you should leave your bitch intact" is an 100% opinion. 

Of course you keep your dog from running out the door or getting into house hold stuff. I mean ive trained my dogs to not run out the door everytime its opened but i she does i bring her back inside. 

And to say "its not that big of a deal" is a little interesting. Of course its a big deal if my bitch gets pregnant. 

To me, saying "you should leave your bitch intact" is an opinion, and really nothing but an opinion. It isn't about "i cant deal with an intact bitch" its about saying "oh you shouldn't spay your bitch because..." Is an opinion just like "i you should spay your bitch because..." There are "facts" to each opinion, but that doesnt make your opinion a fact.

Ex: cropping and docking. 
"Cropping and docking is cruel because" is the same as saying "cropping and docking isnt cruel because" 

They are nothing more than opinions. 


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> To say "you should leave your bitch intact" is an 100% opinion.
> 
> Of course you keep your dog from running out the door or getting into house hold stuff. I mean ive trained my dogs to not run out the door everytime its opened but i she does i bring her back inside.
> 
> ...




I have NEVER said you should leave your bitch intact... Do NOT put words in my mouth.... You need to go back and read what I said.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have NEVER said you should leave your bitch intact... Do NOT put words in my mouth.... You need to go back and read what I said.


Well you aren't saying you should spay your bitch? 

Either way, nothing here is a "fact" its all an opinion. Whether someone should own a dog at all if they can't handle an intact dog is an opinion too. 


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have not said that anyone should not spay or neuter.... All I have said is that you do not need to spay or neuter to prevent pregnancies. 


That some folks act like it is some difficult task to keep dogs from breeding is comical. 

BTW I have no issue if someone wants to spay, neuter, crop or dock..... It is your dog... carve it up as you so choose.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> Well you aren't saying you should spay your bitch?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App




I am saying you do not have to spay your bitch to prevent pregnancies.....I find it laughable that anyone suggests it is hard... I was running dogs, cleaning kennels, and feeding up, intact dogs at 8 years old. It just ain't that hard.... Of all the things one might be concerned with.... An accidental pregnancy is way down on the list. Because it is just not that difficult to keep it from happening.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have not said that anyone should not spay or neuter.... All I have said is that you do not need to spay or neuter to prevent pregnancies.
> 
> 
> That some folks act like it is some difficult task to keep dogs from breeding is comical.
> ...


But i think the point (or my point at least) was that i spay my bitches because a litter of puppies is a nightmare to me. Plus, i always have a male in the house, and when my girl was old enough i spayed her, than welcomed a male into my family who was not neutered as still to this day is not. Its just a intact bitch, does not work in my life style, neither does it in everyone else's.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am saying you do not have to spay your bitch to prevent pregnancies.....I find it laughable that anyone suggests it is hard... I was running dogs, cleaning kennels, and feeding up, intact dogs at 8 years old. It just ain't that hard.... Of all the things one might be concerned with.... An accidental pregnancy is way down on the list. Because it is just not that difficult to keep it from happening.


Im not saying its "hard" im saying its just a fear of mine. Like people are afraid of their dog getting hit by a car, im afraid,, terrified really.. Of my bitch getting pregnant and having to give them to people i didnt know then end up in shelters like thats just a fear of mine. Plus, i have always preferred the males, so the extra "bitchiness" is something id like to avoid. LOL 


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> But i think the point (or my point at least) was that i spay my bitches because a litter of puppies is a nightmare to me. Plus, i always have a male in the house, and when my girl was old enough i spayed her, than welcomed a male into my family who was not neutered as still to this day is not. Its just a intact bitch, does not work in my life style, neither does it in everyone else's.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Well that is up to you.... But you spayed the bitch to manage 2 percent of her life.... Depending on the breed you may have subjected her to assort ailments that would be little to no worry to her if she was intact. But to each their own.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Depending on the breed you may have subjected her to assort ailments that would be little to no worry to her if she was intact.


Seriously, with the innate troubles of the female reproductive system. . .not spaying her may subject her to assorted ailments that would be little to no worry if she was spayed. And dogs can't tell us if something feels weird inside. It's more like picking which risks you prefer, not minimizing total risk.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Seriously, with the innate troubles of the female reproductive system. . .not spaying her may subject her to assorted ailments that would be little to no worry if she was spayed. And dogs can't tell us if something feels weird inside. It's more like picking which risks you prefer, not minimizing total risk.



LMAO.... Not giving up.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Well that is up to you.... But you spayed the bitch to manage 2 percent of her life.... Depending on the breed you may have subjected her to assort ailments that would be little to no worry to her if she was intact. But to each their own.


My girl was spayed 7 years ago when she was a 1 1/2 years old. And i must say shes had no problems related to her spay. But thanks for the warning


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have not said that anyone should not spay or neuter.... All I have said is that you do not need to spay or neuter to prevent pregnancies.
> 
> 
> That some folks act like it is some difficult task to keep dogs from breeding is comical.
> ...


Using wording like that is offensive to me... Faxon is getting spayed tomorrow and I'm worried enough as it is. I'm not "carving her up," I'm making her and my life easier and following through with the contract I have with the shelter she came from. I'm also terrified of pyometra and mammary cancer, whereas the dogs I have known that are spayed have not had these issues, ever. In fact I have never heard of a dog having issues down the line due to being spayed. There are also a lot of off leash dogs in my area and I don't want to get harrassed by them any more. I already went through that when she was in heat and it was freaking awful.

EDIT: I'm also really pissed off about this comment: "That explains VOLUMES... I do not associate with Foo foo dog people. "

Foo foo dog, really? So because my dog is small she isn't a real dog? Yeah, sure. She's as tenacious as any bigger dog and as loving as any bigger dog and braver than my Faxon who is several times her size. If I trained her she could do anything your bigger dogs could do. If you don't associate with "foo foo dog people" then don't associate with me.

On the other hand, while Faxon was in heat I left her outside, chained for a bit while I ran an errand. When I returned it was apparent that the lawnmower guy came and that she had become terrified and slipped her collar. I drove around the neighborhood in a panic and then found her in the adjacent yard to my house, playing with the neighbor's puppy. She did not get pregnant.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> LMAO.... Not giving up.


When you have a female reproductive system, come back and we'll talk. . .as the owner of a female reproductive system that up until recently has been in fine working order, the best that can be said is that when it's in perfect working order, it's only mildly troublesome. When not in perfect working order, well, it's really not fun (and will likely lead to a hysterectomy anyway). I would not make a dog I like put up with this kind of thing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I am about 95% sure his comment about foo-foo dogs and people was tongue in cheek. If it's not, I'd like to remain in denial. 

And introduce him to a 12lb dog who would put most ACDs I've known to shame in both drive, energy, and intelligence.

I'm not really offended about the rest, though maybe mildly irritated. As long as we've established I can spay my dogs if I want to, he can think it's unnecessary. Heck, I even sort of agree with him, but at the end of the day I made an educated decision. Not the one he would have made, but an educated decision. 

THAT is what I would like more people to do. Make an honestly, truthfully, INFORMED decision, free of propaganda and bullcrap and lies and half-truths and emotional manipulation.


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

CptJack said:


> THAT is what I would like more people to do. Make an honestly, truthfully, INFORMED decision, free of propaganda and bullcrap and lies and half-truths and emotional manipulation.


Yep. And hopefully new owners will make the right decisions for them and their dogs. We get a lot of new dog owners who come to this forum. When we say things like "it's easy to manage intact dogs" or have that condescending tone that people who choose to spay and neuter are somehow less educated (even though the studies go both ways). I can't help but be scared of what these new owners would get from all that.

I'd be interested to know if there's a surge of new unplanned litters because inexperienced people think "I need to keep my dog intact because it's easy" but they can't actually manage their dog or they do for awhile and then become less attentive. We all know it happens.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

No, it is not hard to keep bitches from getting pregnant. We've almost always had intact dogs and other than Mia all our females were spayed at 4+ years old (while we had an intact male too). I think it is dubious to say that leaving a bitch intact is healthier for her though. My experience is... it's not. Like I said, I know quite a few breeders that have had trouble and as such spay all their females once they are done breeding. 

But those were 'foo foo dogs'.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I think it all comes down to research and education and doing what you think is best for you and your dogs. And breeder/shelter contracts, if you have one. 

I don't like that so many vets seem to just push for spay/neuter as early as possible. And regardless of things like breed. After reading as much as I could find (and understand - science-y stuff is not my strong point), I can't imagine spaying before a pup's growth plates fuse. Especially the giant breeds I'm most likely going to have for the rest of my life. On the other hand, I don't know that I'd be comfortable keeping a bitch intact after that. Pyo is something that terrifies me. Like a dog getting stolen or hit by a car or attacked. 

I just don't want to risk it. Pyo and bloat are the two biggest things that scare me, and at least I can get rid of the chances of one. I'll still freak out about bloat, though... Of course, oops litters scare me, too, though I do feel I'd be able to prevent them. It's just best for us and I feel that it's best for my dog to go through a spay. When she's two. That's the decision I've come to after doing a lot of reading and research over the past year or so, and I think if people take the time to do that and really investigate the whys and the why nots and make an informed choice, you can't really fault them for that.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Kayota said:


> *On the other hand, while Faxon was in heat I left her outside, chained for a bit while I ran an errand.* When I returned it was apparent that the lawnmower guy came and that she had become terrified and slipped her collar. I drove around the neighborhood in a panic and then found her in the adjacent yard to my house, playing with the neighbor's puppy. She did not get pregnant.


Not trying to be mean, but this is really not a good idea. Our general rules with females in heat have always been no being outside unsupervised and no being around the intact males. Usually we try to keep 2 doors between at all times although to be fair, our last time with an intact male and bitch in heat, he showed no interest in her whatsoever so they were around each other very limited and with full supervision. She was also past the fertile point in her cycle (though that wasn't known right away). But a tie out is not preventing anything from approaching her. 

I do worry about people keeping intact bitches in particular. I've known enough fairly responsible dog owners and breeders have oops. Sometimes it's a lapse in judgement. Sometimes it's something like a silent heat. Throw into that lack of education and knowledge- how many people don't know how long heats can last or what period the bitch is fertile? 

We have NEVER had a pregnancy (other than the stray we picked up who was already knocked up). But I think it's important to remember leaving a dog intact is not 100% foolproof.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

A lot of you guys know that the boys are intact. I will say they are honestly no harder to manage (for me) than our neutered rescue we had. Our next door neighbor has a doxie female whom they have left intact due to the fear of putting a dog under anesthesia (they lost their previous dog during a routine spay.) I never know when Sadie comes in and out of season because I cannot see any change in behavior from Ocean or Lars. Lars earned a High in Trial at an obedience trial (highest score out of all the obedience classes) in the same room as a conformation show where females in season can be shown. I have made the decision, I will not neuter another male dog I have that has come from my breeder unless medically necessary. I am uber careful about not letting my dogs get loose. In the 13 years I have owned this breed...I can say, they have never been unaccounted for. That's not because they are intact...it's because they are rottweilers. People's reaction to a loose rottweiler is much different than that of a loose Golden or Lab. My dog owner mantra is to never give anyone a reason to dislike my rottweilers....that includes letting them run amok through my neighborhood.

I'm not sure anyone outside of the rottweiler world knows about a study being done called the "Old Grey Muzzle Tour." A vet named Dr. Waters has been going across country every year and meeting/studying the oldest Rottweilers. He and the Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation are trying to discover what is behind exceptional longevity. What he has been finding is in the oldest female rottweilers that NOT removing ovaries does increase longevity. A lot of the old ladies he met were spayed but not until later in life. 



> If keeping ovaries longer promotes living longer, could it be explained by a linkage between keeping ovaries and having more litters, more puppies? While Dr. Waters was engaged in his coast-to-coast adventuring, our most recent work was accepted for publication. The scientific paper shows that the longevity-promoting effect of keeping ovaries longer is independent of reproduction. It means we need to keep exploring to find out how ovaries do it. You can download the manuscript at http://www.gpmcf.org/PDFs/AGE.pdf


For those of you who are interested, here are the links for the Old Grey Muzzle Tour:

http://www.facebook.com/TheOldGreyMuzzleTour

http://www.gpmcf.org/index.html

The work Dr. Waters is doing is fascinating and I think we as dog owners should be following his findings.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Not trying to be mean, but this is really not a good idea. Our general rules with females in heat have always been no being outside unsupervised and no being around the intact males. Usually we try to keep 2 doors between at all times although to be fair, our last time with an intact male and bitch in heat, he showed no interest in her whatsoever so they were around each other very limited and with full supervision. She was also past the fertile point in her cycle (though that wasn't known right away). But a tie out is not preventing anything from approaching her.


Yeah I actually know that and I didn't realize she was still in heat at the time first of all, and second I learned my lesson and don't leave her tied out when I'm not home any more unless it's literally still in town (i have a small town) and will take me less than 30 minutes. She had quit bleeding and seemed to be coming out of it that day but the next couple days she was bleeding again.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I do worry about people keeping intact bitches in particular. I've known enough fairly responsible dog owners and breeders have oops. Sometimes it's a lapse in judgement. Sometimes it's something like a silent heat. Throw into that lack of education and knowledge- how many people don't know how long heats can last or what period the bitch is fertile?


I had a girl come in and ask me if female dogs can have periods. I lead her to the doggy diapers, explained a little about female dogs in heat, and gave her the number to a low cost spay clinic in the area. It was a scruffy little Chi-mix that had recently matured. There are people who don't even know what a bitch in heat looks like much less how to take care of one! Not all people are up to the task of owning an intact bitch.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kayota said:


> Yeah I actually know that and I didn't realize she was still in heat at the time first of all, and second I learned my lesson and don't leave her tied out when I'm not home any more unless it's literally still in town (i have a small town) and will take me less than 30 minutes. She had quit bleeding and seemed to be coming out of it that day but the next couple days she was bleeding again.


They're actually most fertile when the bleeding stops . Which I think is a major reason for a lot of accidental pregnancies; people don't know the actual fertile time.

One thing to think about---if I slip up on any other aspect of dog keeping, my ONE dog may get hurt or killed. That's bad. But if I slip up with an intact dog, 10 or 12 new dogs could be the result, and depending on what breed/mix is involved, most of them will probably end up dead in their first year. That's. . .beyond bad.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Why not just terminate in utero? No difference since you say they are gonna end up dead anyway.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

I think every situation is different, ie how you live, manage your dog, and what your breeder puts in the contract (or the SPCA's contract) . Had I wanted to pursue agility as a competitor I might have asked the breeder to let my dogs go 2 years before spay/neuter. 

My breeder had it in her contract that I spay/neuter at 1 year. My dog trainer made it clear that she would not allow intact males above the age of 1 in her doggie daycamp play group. and since my trainers playgroup is a critical component to how I manage my dogs I had the male neutered at 11 month. 

Her play groups are under 10 dogs and she never has all 10 dogs out in the room together. She does small play groups of compatible dogs and has two trainers on site. When I asked her why neuter before 1 year old, her response was that it wasn't fair to the intact male as he typically gets picked on by the rest of the group. Iv'e forgotten the reason for that, so will ask again. I do observe that the only intact male in my families group of dogs does get picked on consistently by a female.... but I suspect there are many reasons as to why this particular bitch singles him out to pick on. I personally observe nothing in his behavior that would set her off. He is meek and timid. He was severely injured after being attacked by another dog at a dogpark, and he's gotten much more timid ever since...... (this is a topic for another thread but I think taking an intact dog or bitch to a dogpark is in general a really bad idea) 

So point being, it depends. But for the most part I agree that there are too many unwanted dogs in this world and spay/neuter for all that are not competition/breeding stock is a really good idea.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Willowy said:


> They're actually most fertile when the bleeding stops . Which I think is a major reason for a lot of accidental pregnancies; people don't know the actual fertile time.


Yup I figured that out pretty fast too. Amazing that my vet tech classes did NOT teach us this...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MrsBoats said:


> I'm not sure anyone outside of the rottweiler world knows about a study being done called the "Old Grey Muzzle Tour." A vet named Dr. Waters has been going across country every year and meeting/studying the oldest Rottweilers. He and the Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation are trying to discover what is behind exceptional longevity. What he has been finding is in the oldest female rottweilers that NOT removing ovaries does increase longevity. *A lot of the old ladies he met were spayed but not until later in life.* .


This is something I wonder about. Most the bitches I know are spayed after at least 4-6 years of being intact. Many aren't spayed until 9-10 years old. 

This is an anecdote so take it what you will but I have seen DRASTICALLY less changes in coat and also in body weight/fat percentages in bitches that have been bred prior to being spayed. Summer is the obvious one, she had two (failed) pregnancies and one stillborn pup prior to being spayed. I'm curious to know if people notice the same thing or if it's just coincidence. Nikki was spayed at almost 7 years and still had a lot of changes happen post-spay. But Nikki was never bred.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

mashlee08 said:


> Why not just terminate in utero? No difference since you say they are gonna end up dead anyway.


 They're still ending up dead because I slipped up. And if I believed that spaying was _dangerous_, why would I do that to my dog just because she got pregnant?


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> This is something I wonder about. Most the bitches I know are spayed after at least 4-6 years of being intact. Many aren't spayed until 9-10 years old.
> 
> This is an anecdote so take it what you will but I have seen DRASTICALLY less changes in coat and also in body weight/fat percentages in bitches that have been bred prior to being spayed. Summer is the obvious one, she had two (failed) pregnancies and one stillborn pup prior to being spayed. I'm curious to know if people notice the same thing or if it's just coincidence. Nikki was spayed at almost 7 years and still had a lot of changes happen post-spay. But Nikki was never bred.


Anecdotal here too but I have seen similar also, many Belgian bitches who weren't bred/were spayed young have A TON OF COAT! Have also seen males put on a ton of coat after neutering. Like you wouldn't believe, but the bitches that were left entire for most of their life whether they had litters or not didn't go through such a drastic change in coat or put on as much weight.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Willowy said:


> They're still ending up dead because I slipped up. And if I believed that spaying was _dangerous_, why would I do that to my dog just because she got pregnant?


I wouldn't call terminating a couple of cells floating around in amniotic fluid killing anything, and there is more then one way to terminate pregnancy.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> This is something I wonder about. Most the bitches I know are spayed after at least 4-6 years of being intact. Many aren't spayed until 9-10 years old.
> 
> This is an anecdote so take it what you will but I have seen DRASTICALLY less changes in coat and also in body weight/fat percentages in bitches that have been bred prior to being spayed. Summer is the obvious one, she had two (failed) pregnancies and one stillborn pup prior to being spayed. I'm curious to know if people notice the same thing or if it's just coincidence. Nikki was spayed at almost 7 years and still had a lot of changes happen post-spay. But Nikki was never bred.


Lars' mother was spayed earlier this year at the age of 8 and after having 2 litters of puppies. I haven't seen much change in her at all coat or weight wise from what I see from photos on facebook. But...she is also incredibly active and still competitively showing in agility. She got her MACH right after turning 8 and then she was spayed. After she healed up...she was right back out there in the agility ring racking up more QQ's for her quest for MACH2. So, I don't know if she had been retired from agility, would I see a change in her after being spayed. The only reason she was spayed was because of false pregnancies she was having and it was interfering with her working.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Willowy said:


> When you have a female reproductive system, come back and we'll talk. . .as the owner of a female reproductive system that up until recently has been in fine working order, the best that can be said is that when it's in perfect working order, it's only mildly troublesome. When not in perfect working order, well, it's really not fun (and will likely lead to a hysterectomy anyway). I would not make a dog I like put up with this kind of thing.


again it comes down to health at every age and that is people and animals..


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

mashlee08 said:


> I wouldn't call terminating a couple of cells floating around in amniotic fluid killing anything, and there is more then one way to terminate pregnancy.


Do you prefer "ending an existence"? If they didn't exist, they wouldn't need to be terminated, so I think that's fairly unarguable. I would feel less bad about it the earlier in the pregnancy it is (and I would do it), but I would still feel really bad about ending several existences that only existed because of me. Plus, if it were my male that was involved, I may not have a say in the matter :/.

I would assume that if one feels that spaying jacks up the dog's body, they would feel similarly about shooting her full of hormones to terminate the pregnancy. Hormonal birth control does terrible things to a woman's body (funny how we're willing to put up with risks and side effects to prevent babies!), I would guess the risks would be similar for a dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

PatriciafromCO said:


> again it comes down to health at every age and that is people and animals..


Sure, but a lot of times we have very little control over our health. I try to eat right, I get tons of exercise, I don't use poisons in the house or yard or in my body. . .


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Sure, but a lot of times we have very little control over our health. I try to eat right, I get tons of exercise, I don't use poisons in the house or yard or in my body. . .


totally agree,, it's the one time my vet would recommend altering an animal when there was something wrong and not functioning correctly.. One area in the body not functioning correctly will lead to illness for the entire body. That is why I wouldn't hesitate spaying a bitch for health reasons not having a strong fully functioning heat cycle that could not correct themselves with good diet and being physically fit .. I stand firm to leave my dogs/bitches in tact when they healthy. As far as women,, my own experience of falling down the rabbit hole hard before I realized what was happening,, it was a full year of regaining my health doing the basics I hadn't paid attention to before I saw a change for the better in the right direction so do understand how brutal that was and don't wish it on anyone ... There is a natural digression into age, the body is designed to balance at each step down not fall off the cliff as many experience. Always going to be dependent of the individual and all the variables in genetics and environment.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> A lot of you guys know that the boys are intact. I will say they are honestly no harder to manage (for me) than our neutered rescue we had. Our next door neighbor has a doxie female whom they have left intact due to the fear of putting a dog under anesthesia (they lost their previous dog during a routine spay.) I never know when Sadie comes in and out of season because I cannot see any change in behavior from Ocean or Lars. Lars earned a High in Trial at an obedience trial (highest score out of all the obedience classes) in the same room as a conformation show where females in season can be shown. I have made the decision, I will not neuter another male dog I have that has come from my breeder unless medically necessary. I am uber careful about not letting my dogs get loose. In the 13 years I have owned this breed...I can say, they have never been unaccounted for. That's not because they are intact...it's because they are rottweilers. People's reaction to a loose rottweiler is much different than that of a loose Golden or Lab. My dog owner mantra is to never give anyone a reason to dislike my rottweilers....that includes letting them run amok through my neighborhood.
> 
> I'm not sure anyone outside of the rottweiler world knows about a study being done called the "Old Grey Muzzle Tour." A vet named Dr. Waters has been going across country every year and meeting/studying the oldest Rottweilers. He and the Gerald P. Murphy Cancer Foundation are trying to discover what is behind exceptional longevity. What he has been finding is in the oldest female rottweilers that NOT removing ovaries does increase longevity. A lot of the old ladies he met were spayed but not until later in life.
> 
> ...


great post MrsBoats and great info.
Now to get this to my Trainer!!!


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

You're welcome! 

Here's a link to the "Keeping ovaries is a good thing" press release from GPMC - http://www.gpmcf.org/EnclosurePRDec2009.pdf

http://www.gpmcf.org/Ovary_Longevity.html

Here's a blurb from the OGMT's facebook page:



> The longevity advantage – how do females do it? Our research in Rotties has shown that the longevity advantage of females is completely erased if ovaries are removed during the first 4 years of life. Speak into my good ear? Dr. Waters wrote an essay about thinking differently about spaying and health called: “In Search of a Strategic Disturbance: Some Thoughts on the Timing of Spaying.” It was published in a veterinary journal called Clinical Theriogenology, but written for non-experts (like you!) willing to re-shape their thinking. For certain, removing ovaries disturbs normal physiology. Can we make spaying a strategic physiologic disturbance? http://www.gpmcf.org/PDFs/Clinical Therio.pdf


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

It's really up to you and what you're comfortable with. Make sure if people are citing research that you actually go and read that research, and that you know how to interpret research. It's a good skill to have. There is a lot of self-righteous hearsay in the dog world and people who know nothing about scientific articles.

My first vet wanted my large breed dog neutered ASAP when he was a puppy. I don't like pediatric s/n. I was a bio buff in university and I tend to er on the side of caution when it comes to removing organs and large amounts of hormones from a growing animal. I waited until he was a year old and finished growing to neuter and there was no ill effect. YMMV. Having an large, adolescent intact male dog can be a pain in the butt, but it's certainly manageable. Neutering to avoid behavioral problems is lazy training.

I'd like to also note that vasectomies are possible for male dogs, good luck finding a vet that will do it though.



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Probably because the general message is SPAY AND NEUTER ALL THE PETS. Which is fine, especially for any one that doesn't want to or can't manage an intact dog. There is sometimes a quite obvious message of how responsible owners ALWAYS neuter their animals. There is a lot of varying research and a lot of varying opinions out there. Personally, I do not like pediatric s/ns, but every thing else is up to the individual owner.


^ Agree with this. Affectionately called the sputer brigade, they have excellent propaganda and I'm not against it either, because it means the idiot owners might get their dog fixed before they have "oops" litters or take their intact male to the park and he starts fights.
It's just really annoying when people who have not fully read into the subject can spout nothing but the propaganda, condemn people with intact pets, and won't even consider taking a neutral stance for one moment and doing some research. I've had people completely stonewall me for even suggesting there might be some cons to s/n.

I worked in a shelter. I've seen unwanted pets die and get trucked away to the incinerator in garbage cans. It's soul crushing. I still have a neutral stance on s/n. It's a complex issue and more than just removing the reproductive organs of people's pets. There are two sides to the coin.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Why is it that neutered males go after intact males?



CptJack said:


> Answer to the OP:One thing to think about though is that a lot of neutered males have issues with intact ones. One of the reasons Thud isn't going to be neutered is that we have 2 intact boys in the house and everyone gets along just fine - even while a dog in our house was in heat. I'm not inclined to rock that boat, so everyone stays intact. If any of them were neutered, it's very likely I'd go ahead and neuter them all at ANY hint of trouble, because of that.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kayota said:


> Using wording like that is offensive to me... Faxon is getting spayed tomorrow and I'm worried enough as it is. I'm not "carving her up," I'm making her and my life easier and following through with the contract I have with the shelter she came from. I'm also terrified of pyometra and mammary cancer, whereas the dogs I have known that are spayed have not had these issues, ever. In fact I have never heard of a dog having issues down the line due to being spayed. There are also a lot of off leash dogs in my area and I don't want to get harrassed by them any more. I already went through that when she was in heat and it was freaking awful.
> 
> EDIT: I'm also really pissed off about this comment: "That explains VOLUMES... I do not associate with Foo foo dog people. "
> 
> ...


If ANYTHING said on a internet forum makes you truly angry..... Then it might be time to step away from the keyboard. 

I will address the comments that caused your anger separately.

The "carving up" comment. Sarcasm... But the reality is that spay neuter, docking, cropping. Are all cosmetic procedures. 

I will add... That IF the comment bothers someone THAT much.... They are not to well confident and comfortable with the reasons they are altering their dog. 

Second.... 

The "foo foo dog" comment. I mean come on? Tell me you ACTUALLY took that serious? How long have I been posting here?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> When you have a female reproductive system, come back and we'll talk. . .as the owner of a female reproductive system that up until recently has been in fine working order, the best that can be said is that when it's in perfect working order, it's only mildly troublesome. When not in perfect working order, well, it's really not fun (and will likely lead to a hysterectomy anyway). I would not make a dog I like put up with this kind of thing.


We are not talking about humans here.. But since you are.... A great many women live their entire lives without reproductive parts issues.... And when they do have issues, and surgery, many take hormone replacement.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kayota said:


> Using wording like that is offensive to me... Faxon is getting spayed tomorrow and I'm worried enough as it is. I'm not "carving her up," I'm making her and my life easier and following through with the contract I have with the shelter she came from. I'm also terrified of pyometra and mammary cancer, whereas the dogs I have known that are spayed have not had these issues, ever. In fact I have never heard of a dog having issues down the line due to being spayed. There are also a lot of off leash dogs in my area and I don't want to get harrassed by them any more. I already went through that when she was in heat and it was freaking awful.
> 
> EDIT: I'm also really pissed off about this comment: "That explains VOLUMES... I do not associate with Foo foo dog people. "
> 
> ...


Oh and... You are making your life easier, at least you believe you are. Nothing about spaying makes her life easier.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> They're actually most fertile when the bleeding stops .
> 
> .


Actually you are incorrect.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Oh and... You are making your life easier, at least you believe you are. Nothing about spaying makes her life easier.


 Stop. 

Nothing would make YOUR life easier. 

Someone with anxiety issues, the worry about what-ifs and the ability to fixate on them is a problem. 

Me? I spayed Bug (...again) to make my life easier - and Kylie. Why? Because I'm selfish and I want that 2% of their life to not have to curtail my activities and worry about cleaning my floors or buying sanitary products for the dog and putting them on them. Even if you remove the fact that I live with unneutered males.

This is not a zero sum. I agreed that it is very easy to keep a dog from getting pregnant. I do not agree that your life and your experiences give you the right to tell someone else what is easier for THEM. Your life is not someone else's. It is trivial for YOU. It is not trivial for everyone.

The 'believe you are' is unnecessary, there - (Yes, I misread). Her Dog's life being easier, probably not, except the part where she was still contractually obligated to spay the dog because she came from an animal control, and presumably the dog would like to continue to live with her and the owner would like to continue not to be made an example of/be able to adopt or volunteer there again, ever and/or not end up on a do not adopt list.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

she can never get pregnant and can never get pyometra now, to me that's easier.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

FWIW - I'd far more readily spay a bitch than neuter a dog. Why? Because I'd rather not deal with heat cycles. I managed to find a way to live without periods myself...why would I want to deal with them in my dog if there was a way not to? That being said, now that I'm considering living with an intact male, I've started to rethink my thoughts on intact females as well and I think I'd have to do more research and think critically before spaying a bitch as well.

I do think the convenience factor isn't trivial, though. Given that the research seems mixed and not weighing completely on either side, I think it's just one of those personal decisions that everyone has to carefully consider and make themselves...unless they have a spay/neuter contract with their breeder or shelter/rescue, in which case I think the only ethical thing to do is to abide by the agreements you made when you got the dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Leah00 said:


> Yep. And hopefully new owners will make the right decisions for them and their dogs. We get a lot of new dog owners who come to this forum. When we say things like "it's easy to manage intact dogs" or have that condescending tone that people who choose to spay and neuter are somehow less educated (even though the studies go both ways). I can't help but be scared of what these new owners would get from all that.
> 
> I'd be interested to know if there's a surge of new unplanned litters because inexperienced people think "I need to keep my dog intact because it's easy" but they can't actually manage their dog or they do for awhile and then become less attentive. We all know it happens.


Well it easy to manage an intact dog.... If someone is incapable of doing that, they are not likely capable of keeping it out of the street, remembering to feed and water it, remember to not leave it in a hot car. 




Leah00 said:


> When we say things like "it's easy to manage intact dogs" or have that condescending tone that people who choose to spay and neuter are somehow less educated
> 
> .


There is NOTHING in my statements that suggests I am stating that folks that spay and neuter are somehow less educated.

I am going to make people mad again and say carve your dog anyway you want. I don't care. If you want to spay and neuter your dog, crop, dock, tattoo, dye it purple.... I do not care. I have NO problem with spaying and neutering. 

Just understand why wish to do it. Speaking of condescending.... You have Willowy, Doglover, etc..... attempting to convince people that if they do not alter their dog, they are going to end up causing pregnancies. They try to press their opinion on misinformation and fear. 

I have news for you, we are NEVER going to speuter our way out of unwanted litters. Attempting to do so makes about as much sense as cutting off people's index fingers to cure lung cancer. 

If more folks would get off the speuter bandwagon and educate, promote, and advocate responsible dog ownership in all aspects of the dog owning experience, we MIGHT get somewhere....


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Well it easy to manage an intact dog.... If someone is incapable of doing that, they are not likely capable of keeping it out of the street, remembering to feed and water it, remember to not leave it in a hot car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Please tell me where i said "everyone should spay there dogs" im talking from a personal standpoint. I have said everything is based in opinion, not made up facts. I have explained many times my reason for spaying and neutering my dogs. If someone wants to spay/neuter there dog, great. if someone wants to leave their dog intact, great. So please, do not tell me i am trying to convince other people to spay/neuter there dogs when you are trying to convince them that they shouldn't by coming up with excuses as to why leaving your dog intact is all flowers and rainbows. 

Personally, no one cares if you leave your dogs intact or not. Its not a big deal. 

Also, what do you mean by your last statement? Are you saying spaying and neutering is irresponsible? 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If more folks would get off the speuter bandwagon and educate, promote, and advocate responsible dog ownership in all aspects of the dog owning experience, we MIGHT get somewhere....


I find this curious, the biggest speuter advocates I know personally (like people who have local television spots and vigorously advocate at all local events) are also the biggest responsible ownership across the board advocates. Is it your opinion/experience that speuter advocates neglect advocating for responsibility in ALL aspects of dog ownership and care?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> Please tell me where i said "everyone should spay there dogs" im talking from a personal standpoint. I have said everything is based in opinion, not made up facts. I have explained many times my reason for spaying and neutering my dogs. If someone wants to spay/neuter there dog, great. if someone wants to leave their dog intact, great. So please, do not tell me i am trying to convince other people to spay/neuter there dogs when you are trying to convince them that they shouldn't by coming up with excuses as to why leaving your dog intact is all flowers and rainbows.
> 
> Personally, no one cares if you leave your dogs intact or not. Its not a big deal.
> 
> ...


This is not about me... So it matters not whether I leave my dogs intact or not. 

No I am NOT saying spaying and neutering is irresponsible. I am saying that pushing spay and neuter has failed to end unwanted pets.



Emmett said:


> I find this curious, the biggest speuter advocates I know personally (like people who have local television spots and vigorously advocate at all local events) are also the biggest responsible ownership across the board advocates. Is it your opinion/experience that speuter advocates neglect advocating for responsibility in ALL aspects of dog ownership and care?


Yes... They tend to get tunnel vision...


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> This is not about me... So it matters not whether I leave my dogs intact or not.
> 
> No I am NOT saying spaying and neutering is irresponsible. I am saying that pushing spay and neuter has failed to end unwanted pets.



Well it shouldn't matter if someone else spays or neuter their dogs either then. 
Yes it has failed to prevent unwanted pets, but how would not pushing it turn out? Probably worse. Responsible dog ownership has nothing to do with spay/neutering or cropping and docking (im going to hell because i do both right?). It has to do with feeding, loving and providing healthcare to your dog(s), training them, providing them exercise, cleaning up after them ect... 

Like i said, its all opinions. So if someone says "i dont want to deal with an intact bitch" why should it be blown out of the water too "if you can't take care of an intact bitch you shouldn't own one cause that means you can't keep them out of whatever whatever" 

So if it doesn't matter if you leave your dogs intact or not, why does it matter if everyone else leaves their dogs or not. Everyone has their own reason to way or why they didnt spay or neuter. So to keep fighting that we are terrible irresponsible people because we decide not to deal with an intact bitch if completely pointless. 



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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If more folks would get off the speuter bandwagon and educate, promote, and advocate responsible dog ownership in all aspects of the dog owning experience, we MIGHT get somewhere....


Yep, nailed it again, like I said before, education is the answer, not screaming down peoples throats to speuter all the things. If people actually understood WHY, then maybe you would get somewhere.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> Well it shouldn't matter if someone else spays or neuter their dogs either then.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Where did I say it matters? Have you actually read and paid attention to ANYTHING I have said? 

I could care less if someone spays or neuters their dogs.

I have said EXACTLY four things on this thread.

1) It is healthier to leave dogs intact

2) You do not need to alter a dog to prevent it from breeding

3) If a person cannot manage a dog and keep it from causing an unwanted litter, they are not responsible enough to own a dog. 

4) The Speuter campaigns has not and will not end homeless pets. 

I NEVER said anyone HAD to do it....It is personal choice. In fact I have gone out of my way to say it is choice. 

(BTW I am DEFINATELY not against docking and cropping. I have cropped a bunch of 3 day old puppies in my life. ) 



Doglover65 said:


> So to keep fighting that we are terrible irresponsible people because we decide not to deal with an intact bitch if completely pointless.


Again you are READING WAY WAY WAY into what I have said. Where exactly did I say ANYONE is terrible for spaying and neutering?


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> Well it easy to manage an intact dog.... If someone is incapable of doing that, they are not likely capable of keeping it out of the street, remembering to feed and water it, remember to not leave it in a hot car.


Really...puleeze.....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

So Cavalier said:


> Really...puleeze.....


Yes really... 
a Great many matters in which dogs require daily management are more difficult than keeping a dog from becoming pregnant or impregnating.....


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

Whatever....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

So Cavalier said:


> Whatever....


Okay!
too short


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OK. . .before spay/neuter was popularized in the '80s, 20 million pets were being killed in shelters, and drowning/thumping/shooting/etc. unwanted puppies and kittens/adult pets was way more common than it is now. So how, exactly, has spay/neuter failed to reduce the homeless/killed pet problem? I know for a fact that spay/neuter has prevented many deaths of unwanted puppies and kittens just among my family members.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Leaving dogs intact is healthier. Where did you hear that, by the way?

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0061082

Pretty recent study if you ask me.  Give it a read.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Leaving dogs intact is healthier. Where did you hear that, by the way?
> 
> http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0061082
> 
> Pretty recent study if you ask me.  Give it a read.


I heard it from the ongoing current research I posted from Dr. Waters on pages 8 and 9 of this discussion. BernerMax (the OP) actually found that helpful and the info she had been looking for to give to her trainer. 


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have news for you, we are NEVER going to speuter our way out of unwanted litters. Attempting to do so makes about as much sense as cutting off people's index fingers to cure lung cancer.


Really? I understand that we will never be able to prevent every unwanted litter but the only actual FACT that hopefully everyone here can agree on is that a spayed dog will never have an unwanted litter. So for that particular dog there will be no unwanted litters. 

We will never not have unwanted litters because not everyone who owns dog will be responsible. We agree on that, right? 

So isn't it still better for the majority of dog owners to spay and neuter? 

The only thing I worry about is that the push for leaving your dogs intact is going to have a backlash. I think it's just fine that some people are choosing not to spay and neuter and have no problems. I would still rather have the push for speutering for the majority of people. 
I've already stated earlier here that my feelings have changed on this and I regret getting Buttercup spayed too early. I really do. Maybe one day I'll be a person who keeps my dogs intact.... But I really hope I still recommend spaying and neutering to other people and especially new dog owners.

If I spay a dog, that dog will not have unwanted litters, if I cut off someone's finger they can still get cancer. Saying otherwise is just crazy.... But I see you're from Florida so...

That's a joke.  I grew up in Fort Myers.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> I heard it from the ongoing current research I posted from Dr. Waters on pages 8 and 9 of this discussion. BernerMax (the OP) actually found that helpful and the info she had been looking for to give to her trainer.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Did you read the study Syd linked? It is current, published in 2013, and covers 40,000 dogs of various breeds and sizes. The problem with breed specific studies (Rottweilers and the Golden studies come to mind) is that they don't generalize very well. So, it may very well be that early speutering is a negative for Rottweilers or Goldens, breeds already prone to shortened life spans and a whole host of ailments, but does not confer the same downsides to the majority of breeds and mixes out there. I'm not saying its not important to know breed specific statistics. In fact if the study you linked holds true upon replication I would be inclined to say staying intact longer, or indefinitely, is the way to go in Rottweilers. It's just important to remember that when you (royal "you") are making blanket statements research on one specific breed is not exactly the firmest pulpit to preach from. 

Something else to consider, this study was conducted in Finland, where care and keeping practices look very different from here in North America. I'd be interested to see what impact those may have had on longevity as well.


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Where did I say it matters? Have you actually read and paid attention to ANYTHING I have said?
> 
> I could care less if someone spays or neuters their dogs.
> 
> ...





JohnnyBandit said:


> This is not about me... So it matters not whether I leave my dogs intact or not.


I said if it doesn't matter if you do or dont, why should it matters if other people do or dont.

When you search up about spay and neuter, there can be 7 different articles and 5 of them are different. Some may say its healthier to leave a dog intact, some say its healthier to spay them, some even say they live longer, some may even say theres no change.

Everything is clouded by opinion, so finding the "truth" about spaying and neutering is difficult. Its EASIER to leave them intact, but is it honestly better? We dont know. No dog is ever then same. One breed may be better off spayed, other dogs may be better off fixed. Also, depending in WHEN you spay/neuter has a lot to do with the outcome. And also, how well it was done plays a huge roll. 

Personally i think its almost impossible (i say that lightly) to get "educated" on something that is clouded with opinions and the differences between breeds. Someone who uses one breed as an "experiment" will or may get different results than if they did the same thing 
with another breed.

So to tell people to "educate themselves" is extremely difficult to do when almost every test or experiment results are different. 

Regards to number 2, No one said you have to spay to prevent them from breeding, but an intact 100lb dog is not the same as a little 20-30 pound dog. You don't have to spay them to prevent them from breeding, but you also can't just take your dog to the dog park or let it around your intact males, which to some is almost impossible as they own an intact male, as theyre not old enough to be neutered. Some can even argue that you're irresponsible if you don't spay because accidents happen. Your male could father a litter somewhere else and you'd never know. 

IN MY OPINION, number 3 is a load of something else. Sh** happens, thats like me saying "you spilt your juice by accident so you arent responsible enough to hood a cup" like really..? Would you say the same about a cat? Honest question. But anywho, if you can't control and intact dog, get them spayed or neutered, not "get rid of your dog because you can't handle an intact dog".

And speuter campaigns may not have stopped it but it definitely helped. Less animals going into shelters, more shelters becoming "no kill". And there are less byb. 

I've gone out of my way to tell you that its all opinion. Someone at the shelter who actually sees all these dogs and cats come in will have a different opinion than someone on the street. Its extremely hard to educate yourself when each thing you read about it is different from the last. You say its healthier to leave them intact i can find things that suggest otherwise. You say you dont have to alter a dog to prevent well damn id like to know how you do it. You say if you can't handle an intact dog youre not responsible enough to own one, i can find many thing that say youre irresponsible because you don't spay/neuter. "Speuter" campaigns have slowed the rate of unwanted births, and reduced the amount of kill shelters. 

Its all clouded by opinion, all the facts are clouded and the experiments have different facts (breed/age) so they result in different results, articles are clouded by judgement. Everything said on this thread can be contradicted. I can be contradicted, you can be contradicted, the person who thinks one thing about it can be contradicted by another. There is no "truth of the matter" answer because someone can always contradict it. 


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Doglover65 said:


> I said if it doesn't matter if you do or dont, why should it matters if other people do or dont.
> 
> When you search up about spay and neuter, there can be 7 different articles and 5 of them are different. Some may say its healthier to leave a dog intact, some say its healthier to spay them, some even say they live longer, some may even say theres no change.
> 
> ...


I do not think it is cloudy at all. I have read both side. 

Syd pops up one study and seems to declare that altered dogs live longer. 

Someone else say that breed specific studies are no good. They are GREAT if they are for your breed. I am really not concerned with health and longevity issues of say Cocker Spaniels. ( I do not mean that in a Cruel way. Just they are not my breed)
I am very in tune with those issues in ACDs, Labs, etc. 


I have 42 years of dog ownership. Owned a BUNCH of dogs. Been working, competing, hunting, running trials, etc for almost all of that times. 

Based on personal experience combined with studies, I do not see a cloud in the sky. 

I have been watching which dogs get hurt, which dogs keep going in agility, herding trials, working, hunting etc. 

When I combine my experiences which I know are ancedotal, with studies, it is a no brainer.

Want to see something telling...

I have owned four altered dogs. Average life span 7 years 

Take the first four dogs I owned. Which were all intact. 15 years.


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## jrijr (Feb 16, 2007)

I'm very glad to have found this thread, because the "fixing" is something on my mind right now. 

I have a black Labrador (female/spayed) who had a litter last year. I have two of the pups (dad was a Golden Retriever), a golden female and a black male, and both are unfixed. The three dogs are buddies - they play, sleep, eat, everything together.

Two days a week I take the dogs to a "doggy daycare" to get some extra exercise. I've heard that twice the boy dog has been in a "tiff" with another dog who wants to play with the sister. It's not a fight, but just a little bit of dominance.

I'm more inclined to have the sister fixed as well, just so there are no puppies in the future. She has not had her first heat cycle yet, so I would like her to go through one of those just for the physical aspects of it. But, I'm not sure I want to neuter the boy.

Opinions and thoughts appreciated!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

If you do wait to get her spayed, you'll have to keep her totally separate from the male pup while she's in heat. Dogs don't recognize family trees!


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