# Frustrated with positive training



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

I am so frustrated right now. My friend came over today, and brought his two dogs, who Watson is very familiar with. As my friend is coming in the door with his dogs, I pick Watson up, so he doesn't freak out. He goes crazy hyper anytime anyone is in our house. So I'm holding him, and he is just going crazy. To the point where he literally digs his nails into my chest trying to get out if my arms to get to the other dogs. And I had to ignore my pain response and hold onto him so that he didn't drop 4 feet in the air. And now I have two huge welts on my chest. 

My friends dogs, who are trained mainly with chain collars, are just so calm and well behaved. And one of them is younger than Watson. 

It's just so frustrating. I don't know what to do. I have no way to acclimate Watson to people coming into our house. I have exactly one friend. Literally no one else enters my house expect my husband, myself, and our one friend. And Watson is chill when it me or my husband coming through the door. But then there are those random times when someone else needs to come into the house. And it's just embarrassing. I can pin him. And he will ram the pin trying to get out. I can put him in the back yard, but then he stands at the back door howling. 

I try to train these kind of things with him. Doorbell desensitization and the like, but there's only so much training we can do in a day. 

And while my friend was over, his dogs were sitting with him, calmly. And we had to keep Watson on a leash, because he just would not leave the other dogs alone. He was whining the entire time, and we couldn't let him within three feet of them, or he'd go nuts. We were fighting him the whole night. I tried to praise and treat when he was calm, but there really wasn't a point where he was. 

And the barking. Lord the barking. We're working on it. But every time we make any minor progress, something happens and sends him back way beyond where we started. 

I need to socialize him with other dogs more. But I'm not really sure how to do it. I can't take him to doggy daycare right now. He has pano, and I don't want him having unsupervised play and hurting himself more. The dog park just seems to make it worse. And play groups are simply not an option. I do not have the ability to be social like that. 

It would be so easy to just put a chain collar and a bark collar on him. So easy. I'm having a bad day and I'm about ready to give up.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

it's hard to explain it without it being taken the wrong way.. all experiences/ interactions are learning a foundation for a pup to build on. that is what you will have to work with for the next time and the next. For me with a pup there is no rush for high distraction , high stimulus situations..( you can't win with nothing to work with in the pup, and it's not the best time to train as you not getting the best learning experience if they blow you off and end up fighting you and you have to get into using force) I like to spend my time working on owner/puppy skills at home, riding in the car (seeing stuff), going to very calm quiet new places, where we can practice skills,, best first dog interaction is in puppy class where the focus is on learning not to rush and interact with other dogs because they there but to learn to be in the same place and learning again to practice those very simple basic skills. Since all my dogs were going to get big very fast, everything was focused on them learning to come and do freely on their own because that is what I will need when they bigger, is the will to come and do freely on their own. So I do pick and choose situations that I can win to get my foot in the door with skills that will be there to use when we do more advance situations. There is a time for situations and there is a time they are not ready to handle the situation. I like avoidance and isolation or more distant work is needed first for the foundation. Positive training goes really fast and really solid if a good first foundation is introduced before you really need it.. It is harder to back track and un train learned responses,, so I do feel for your situation when it gets past you to a point that you are struggling in so many directions. Really work on one on one training, use crates and baby gates to enforce boundaries of behaviors, use distance and quiet areas to your advantage, and do consider getting into a class with other dogs that is focused on attention and task with owner .. that they are working first.. that it isn't play time at all ... Hang in there..


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I completely understand how frustrating it is. My older dog is hyper in some situations - barky, jumpy, pawy, generally obnoxious - and I'd love to have a quick fix for it. But, I don't. It's especially frustrating that my husband thinks an e-collar is the solution to everything - she barks: shock, she jumps: shock, she chases deer/rabbits/squirrels: shock. Yeah, that _might_ "fix" the problem, but it could also create several more.

We have a similar issue in that we don't have people over very often and don't really have anyone who would be willing or cooperative enough to practice with us. 

I wouldn't necessarily compare Watson to your friend's dogs. They may have had visitors coming and going since day 1. They may generally have a more calm temperament. They may be hyper in different situations. They may be shut down. At training class, one woman was envious of Tyson's chill attitude while her dog was jumping and barking. Sure, he's great there, but at home that boy is never still. He's always checking out the counters, grabbing stuff out of the recycling can, pulling shoes out of the closet, etc. 

How old is Watson? He's young, right? How old are your friend's dogs? Young dogs don't have the foundation to be solid in their cues under distraction.

Have you tried training "place" or doing any relaxation exercises? That might be an option to consider in addition to the other training you're doing. You can slowly add distractions as Watson gains skills.

As an aside, I wouldn't consider pinning a R+ technique.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Put the shoe on the other foot. If you were to take Watson to THEIR house, how do you think the other dogs would respond? and how do you think your dog would respond? Chances are, the resident dogs would be unruly and the visiting dog would be complacent. So ....... ???

Honestly, in either case I don't think you can attribute the reactivity / complacency to the method. All training styles have limitations, and most dogs have natural instincts towards territory that can be difficult if not impossible to override.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I am assuming you meant "pen" him like in a play pen rather than "pin"

First, like others have said, a LOT of calmness and being chill around other dogs and people is just natural personality rather than any training techniques. It can also be a kind of fake calm where the dogs are more afraid of punishment than they are excited to be around other dogs if they have been reprimanded a lot for greeting other dogs or barking around them etc.

Picking him up-- picking him up may be making things worse. It restricts natural body language greeting behavior and it can increase stress on a dog and lead to more barking and hyperness. 

Did he get to greet the other dogs at all? You said he wouldn't leave them alone, but were all of them leashed? Was there any free play or interaction? I am assuming the other dogs are dog-friendly of course. Do you have a fenced yard for some off-leash interaction? If he like other dogs but never gets to interact with them, it gets more and more frustrating for him. Being leashed and close to the other dogs just allowed the frustration and tension to build and build. Look up "trigger stacking" 

Have you read some of the stuff in the sticky on reactive dogs? Its not just about aggression but also about barrier frustration and excited reactivity


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

PatriciafromCO said:


> it's hard to explain it without it being taken the wrong way.. all experiences/ interactions are learning a foundation for a pup to build on. that is what you will have to work with for the next time and the next. For me with a pup there is no rush for high distraction , high stimulus situations..( you can't win with nothing to work with in the pup, and it's not the best time to train as you not getting the best learning experience if they blow you off and end up fighting you and you have to get into using force) I like to spend my time working on owner/puppy skills at home, riding in the car (seeing stuff), going to very calm quiet new places, where we can practice skills,, best first dog interaction is in puppy class where the focus is on learning not to rush and interact with other dogs because they there but to learn to be in the same place and learning again to practice those very simple basic skills. Since all my dogs were going to get big very fast, everything was focused on them learning to come and do freely on their own because that is what I will need when they bigger, is the will to come and do freely on their own. So I do pick and choose situations that I can win to get my foot in the door with skills that will be there to use when we do more advance situations. There is a time for situations and there is a time they are not ready to handle the situation. I like avoidance and isolation or more distant work is needed first for the foundation. Positive training goes really fast and really solid if a good first foundation is introduced before you really need it.. It is harder to back track and un train learned responses,, so I do feel for your situation when it gets past you to a point that you are struggling in so many directions. Really work on one on one training, use crates and baby gates to enforce boundaries of behaviors, use distance and quiet areas to your advantage, and do consider getting into a class with other dogs that is focused on attention and task with owner .. that they are working first.. that it isn't play time at all ... Hang in there..


We're in a class. But I'm not in love with it. It's a lot more "Balanced" than it is Positive. They use leash checks. And when I asked my trainer about barking reactivity, she told me to claim the space of the door (because that's what sets him off). I'm all about claiming space. It works to keep him out of the laundry room and the kitchen, and with teaching him not to grab stuff off the ground. He's not a soft dog, so I don't consider it negative to teach him things that way. It's just another way of communicating to him. But trying to convince a barking Corgi that he shouldn't bark at the door simply by standing over him isn't going to work. Nope. Not at all. 



cookieface said:


> I completely understand how frustrating it is. My older dog is hyper in some situations - barky, jumpy, pawy, generally obnoxious - and I'd love to have a quick fix for it. But, I don't. It's especially frustrating that my husband thinks an e-collar is the solution to everything - she barks: shock, she jumps: shock, she chases deer/rabbits/squirrels: shock. Yeah, that _might_ "fix" the problem, but it could also create several more.
> 
> We have a similar issue in that we don't have people over very often and don't really have anyone who would be willing or cooperative enough to practice with us.
> 
> ...


And that's one of the problems. When my friend left, my husband asked me if we wanted to break down and take the class my friend is in with his dogs, the chain-collar based one. I told him regardless of my dog's behavior, there is no way I'm going to yank around someone I love by a chain. 

I'm my friend's only friend too. No visitors. He's a hermit like me. But he's single, so he has a lot more time to spend hanging out with his dogs. They get tons of exercise, and they both go to two classes (agility and obedience) a week. His younger dog is two months younger than Watson. 

Watson was very hyper as a small puppy. Now he's pretty chill in the house, unless there is a noise he doesn't understand. We worked a lot on calming exercises, and we've bee slowly working on teaching him "It's yer choice" so he doesn't get so excited with food. I've just found that he doesn't really generalize well when we're trying to teach him manners. Like not stealing food, or being calm around other dogs. If I have food, all focus, even if it's hyper focus, is on me. But then once the food is gone, he's back to trying to steal my husband's pizza or glomp other dogs.




petpeeve said:


> Put the shoe on the other foot. If you were to take Watson to THEIR house, how do you think the other dogs would respond? and how do you think your dog would respond? Chances are, the resident dogs would be unruly and the visiting dog would be complacent. So ....... ???
> 
> Honestly, in either case I don't think you can attribute the reactivity / complacency to the method. All training styles have limitations, and most dogs have natural instincts towards territory that can be difficult if not impossible to override.


Lol. Nice try. I take care of his dogs all the time. On my days off I take Watson over there when my friend is at work and let them play. And you're right. They do freak out a little. But Watson is still plainly the aggressor. After a minute of two of being in the house, his dogs will settle and listen to commands, and Watson is still freaking out.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> they both go to two classes (agility and obedience) a week


How often is Watson in class? It could be that through classes, your friend's dogs have either learned to be calm around other dogs or are accustomed to other dogs so that there's no novelty excitement.

You might look at Karen Overall's relaxation protocol (there are several pdf files online and an mp3) and/or something like _Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out_ (not that Watson is, but it's a good relaxation exercise). I like Overall's method a little better; FUFFO is more shaping and I'm just not good at noticing and marking small behaviors.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Hiking groups.

I'm on a meet up group for people that like to hike. The groups allows for dogs on certain hikes. Dogs are on leash and are walking together but not really interacting. Just hiking in the "pack". 

Worked lovely for Manna. Maybe there might be something like that in your area?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I do totally take into consideration he is a corgi,, they always in Happy, herder, barking mode that is how they do everything.. Especially a puppy, have first hand witness in one of my classes with a gal who only owned corgi's for her sheep ranch.. In class as younger pups they were bouncing, zoomie, barking about everything, being quiet they were chewing the treat they had in their mouth.. In a class of people who knew what the breed was, and understood the purpose traits of their own individual dogs being exhibitors and competitors, as well as the trainer (no one thought anything of their antics as pups to be bothered over it, it was just normal and still thought they were cute little things) Her older dogs were much for focus'd on task so am sure lots of things evolve as they get more experienced in maturity..


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm not sure how to put this without sounding like a jerk, but...just using a chain collar or other aversive method doesn't make the dog behave. I know any number of people who use chain collars (correctly even) and have obnoxious dogs. It's just a single tool and doesn't fix more general behavior issues. If the chain collar is working better for your friend, it's working either because his overall training approach is more effective, or because the dogs are more naturally tractable, or some combination of the two.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Isn't Watson at an age where he's still growing into himself? 
I bet those dogs were calm because any other behavior was harshly corrected. Not knowing those dogs, I could be wrong... Watson could also be one of those dogs who will always want to happily greet other dogs before settling down. You can certainly continue to work on minimizing the intensity of the reaction when he first meets a dog. But I agree with the notion that calmness can be a personality thing sometimes.
You can use whatever tools and methods you want... All that matters is you understand and accept the potential consequences. If you are doing all positive now, you accept that it may take longer. If you decide to go shock collar, whatever... that is fine if you use them correctly. You will probably get results sooner. But you also accept the potential downfalls of those methods too. To each her own.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

First of all, take it easy on yourself. It IS frustrating. The type of training you have chosen takes time, repetition, and moving through a lot of steps from low distraction to medium to high. Punishment often works fast, really fast. But if that's not the technique you want, then don't use it. You can get results either way, it's just a much longer road the way you've chosen. 

Secondly, never compare where your dog is in training to someone else's dog. When we go to class, Toast makes me look like the most amazing puppy trainer in the world. He's a rock star. But the vast, vast majority of that came with him, inside his little genes. He is sooooo handler focused, easy to engage and motivate, and he needs & enjoys the mental challenge of learning new things. He is challenging in other ways but he is highly motivated to learn. Meanwhile, the people with the husky mix puppy struggle to even get his attention - but you know what? That was me with Squash when he was a puppy, feeling like the most ineffectual trainer EVER, and I still to this day struggle with his distractibility. He's 4, and I feel like it's just in the last year that I really feel accomplished with his training. 

Thirdly, your dog is a corgi. He is going to bark. He is going to have the gut reaction to take exception to strange people and dogs in his home. It's what his brain is telling him to do. It takes a lot of time and a lot of work to get that under control. Toast is bitey, and often suspicious of strangers. He hates people outside the car when we are in the car. He's super vocal. It's what his brain is telling him to do, and those are things I'll probably struggle with forever. 


Specifically with regards to acclimating to strangers. If he can't handle someone actually coming over yet, then you need to back up and slow down. I like to take Toast to the local park on a busy day and just walk around practicing attention and nose touches. Also just handing out treats for calm behavior when he sees people, bikes, kids, dogs, whatever. It doesn't feel like you're doing much for the problem at hand, but it is like laying a foundation: You wouldn't put the roof on a new home, either, before all the parts underneath it were in place. 

Take a deep breath. Remind yourself that just because you haven't arrived at your destination yet, it doesn't mean you won't get there. It takes time and so much work. The other night I was at a class with Squash and it suddenly struck me where we are in training, and that there were days I never thought I'd get here. He's FOUR. That's a lot of time, work, and practice. You can do it, just ease up on your expectations of yourself on a timeline.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

parus said:


> I'm not sure how to put this without sounding like a jerk, but...just using a chain collar or other aversive method doesn't make the dog behave. I know any number of people who use chain collars (correctly even) and have obnoxious dogs. It's just a single tool and doesn't fix more general behavior issues. If the chain collar is working better for your friend, it's working either because his overall training approach is more effective, or because the dogs are more naturally tractable, or some combination of the two.


Yeah I was going to say something like that too. My first dog was trained all the usual ways---collar jerks, kneeing in the chest, slapping her on the muzzle, etc. and she was awful. She jumped and bit and pulled on the leash, ran out the door every time you opened it, and had to be put away when guests came over because she wouldn't leave them alone. I've hardly done any training with my current dogs and they're way better with visitors (and in general) than she ever was. So I don't necessarily think that if you suddenly switched to more negative methods that it would actually do anything about his behavior. Some dogs are just more. . .enthusiastic . Punitive methods aren't magic. 

Also---and I know this sounds a little mean, sorry---training skill makes a difference. If your skills aren't so hot (mine aren't), you can yank and crank all day and all it will do is make his neck sore. A skilled trainer might be able to teach a dog something by using collar jerks, but a skilled trainer could probably do the same thing without collar jerks too. An unskilled trainer. . .nope. It takes time and practice to learn training skills and before then you're just going to struggle with things. No matter what methods you use. But at least with positive methods you don't have to worry about messing your dog up too bad .


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

sassafras pretty much summed up my feelings on your post.

Relax and accept your dog for who he is. As others have pointed out... you have a Corgi! They are peppy, they are yappy, and they are fun!

And just remember there is never a "fully trained" point. Your dog will have all sorts of things you will have to work on at various points in your life. Just take things one step at a time.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I wouldn't want my dog to do or not do something out of fear of being hurt or uncomfortable no matter how well behaved it makes them.

Maybe I'm lazy with training, but people come over to my house...umm...once every 3 months or so? Maybe even farther in between. Ryker goes crazy for the first 10 minutes. I leash him so he won't jump, but other than that I don't bother trying to train him to be super polite when people come into my house because it just happens so rarely that I don't see much of a point. If I need to I can put him in another room or the crate.

He's polite when we go to other peoples houses and that's all that matters to me. Most dogs out grow their jumping/crazy phase once they are older anyways.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Sass nailed it for me, too, and specifically what I was going to post in particular. 

Don't compare your dog to someone else's. There is more than training method at play. There's even more than train_er_ at play. I took a treibball workshop with Kylie back in November and a couple of people were there who would later be taking Agility Foundations with - the first time through - and we all knew it. One of the people was absolutely in AWE of Kylie, and struggling with their dog (...they thought) because she was kind of distracted and reactive. They asked me about training methods and such, and I DID answer their few questions but ultimately what I said (because it is true) is :

This is the dog. This is not me. The dog makes me look good - wait until you meet the one that will be in your agility class. 

And they actually got it really fast when they saw Molly, lunging and barking and growling and losing her crap.

Kylie is good. Kylie is so, so good. She's a little clingy to me and wary of other people, she *certainly* barks when people appear in places she doesn't think they belong, but honestly? She's good. She can go anywhere, and learn to do anything. She sits and looks me in the face and doesn't do anything bad, like... ever. I didn't train that, that's KYLIE.

Molly meanwhile reacts to EVERYTHING if given a half a chance. People, dogs, plastic bags on the ground, whatever - if it's there and she notices and decides it's weird (even if she's seen it before), threatening, or moving just right she lunges and barks and hackles and generally acts like demonspawn. It's not the training method. It's not the trainer. It's just a matter of Kylie not being Molly. 

(For interest/maybe reassurance?

5 dogs: 
4 are 200% off leash reliable (well, 99 - dogs), and 1 has to have a long line in a lot of situations. 
4 dogs sleep through knocks on the doors and visitors, 1 roars and hits the front door like a ton of bricks.
4 dogs who are totally non-reactive to strange dogs, 1 who is crazy reactive to them
3 dogs who are completely well behaved/well mannered in the house, 1 who is getting there, and 1 I don't think will ever graduate from the crate.
2 dogs who are very people friendly even with strangers, 1 who is now bombproof with them but used to be awful, 1 who is aloof but sensible/safe, 1 who just no thank you very much barks her head off but is improving.

They... all had the same trainer and training methods.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

You guys are awesome. 

Honestly, when I wrote my first post, I was just having a really bad day, and Watson was not helping to situation at all. 

He really is awesome though. He's a great dog. He's not nearly as reactive as I make him sound. Just to be clear, I wouldn't ever resort to hurting him in any way. I'm just really bad at feeling stupid. And any time my friend comes over, and has his dogs all calm, and I have to bring out the treats to calm my dog out, it just makes me feel stupid. But it shouldn't. Because the reason I'm doing it the hard way is because I don't want to hurt him. ANd my friend isn't even making me feel dumb. He's nice about it. It's me doing it to myself. I have a habit of expecting way too much of myself. 

My friend and his dogs came over today. And I just constantly kept treating him for staying focused on me and being calm. And it actually worked really well. It's going to take a lot of time. And I did realize he has some slight guarding issues with me. He can get a little testy when another dog is near me, or I'm giving another dog attention. And that is now going to take top billing in our training, because that cannot be allowed escalate. 

And my friends dogs' do have problems. They always look at my hand whenever I touch them, and I realized it's because they expect to get smacked. I yelled at the younger one the other day, because she tripped me and I was annoyed, and she peed. I would much rather have a dog that is hyper than a dog who submissive pees when I raise my voice. 

So, I guess I'll list some things. Lists always make me feel better.

Things that are awesome:
-He's the best dog in his obedience class. Hands down. And he's the youngest. Today in his class he was used as the distraction dog, because he's the only one that walks well on a leash. 
-I can get his attention 95% of the time with one word, anywhere. It might not be a recall, but one word will get his eyes on me. 
-At ten months he knows enough tricks to get his novice trick dog title. That's pretty neat. 
-He is not scared of any person or dog. 
-Other than my problem with leaving my shoes where he can get them, he has no destructive tenancies in the house. He doesn't chew on furniture, he doesn't have accidents, he is happy in his crate. 
-He learns quickly when guided. And he's very food motivated, so he's easy to train.
-He calms down very easily in the house when it's just my husband and me. 
-He has an excess of confidence.
-He does not ever cringe away from me, because I've never given him any reason to. 

We never really talk that much about how hard +R is. It's a pain in the butt. It takes tons of fricken time. And it doesn't always work the way you want or need it to. It's just so frustrating when you're doing everything you can and your dog it a dumb-face idiot jerk. I'm trying to not hurt you you jerk. I'm actively trying to make your life awesome and pain free. Work with me here, alright?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Glad you're feeling more positive and noticing all the good things you've done with Watson.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Watson is doing great, especially as a jerkface-teenage-puppy!!

Just be patient, and take your time! I know it's hard but he has a long way to maturity  Keep doing what you're doing... one day you're going to wake up and realize how wonderful he turned out to be!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

cookieface said:


> Glad you're feeling more positive and noticing all the good things you've done with Watson.


^^^^ this    ^^^^^^


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

cookieface said:


> Glad you're feeling more positive and noticing all the good things you've done with Watson.


Me, too! We all have those moments of frustration and despair. I'm glad it was just a passing cloud.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

No matter what type of training you do there is always those days that you and your dog do not click.

Just remember positive training/thoughts is not just for the dogs to use. It is helpful if the trainer stays positive too.

I am glad that today was better than yesterday, tomorrow just has to be great! Positive training at its best


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2012)

Keep on keepin' on chimunga!  We had a similar issue today. Henry gets really excited when people come over because everyone who comes home when he's uncrated makes a big fanfare and starts rough petting/playing. Not me, but my fiance, his sisters, etc. Henry loves it, but it makes it really hard to train him to be calm when people come over. 

We had someone come over today and I had to pick him up and put him outside because he was wanting this poor woman to play and she was here for business. I just popped him outside, he barked for a few minutes then settled down until she was ready to leave about 10 minutes later. Didn't have time or energy to make it a training opportunity.

The hard part is the socialization with other dogs. I feel ya on that. We are making up for lost time (I was really sick right after we got Henry) and getting him to as many play dates as possible. Def try Instagram, I can't speak highly enough of it. We made all of our play date friends through Instagram except one, who was from a corgi website. But it's great for finding people for one-on-one meetups and also for getting together a small group somewhere. 

But like you said, I'd rather him be happy and loving and excited to be around people than calm and submissive out of fear. I can't kill his spirit like that.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

sassafras said:


> Me, too! We all have those moments of frustration and despair. I'm glad it was just a passing cloud.


Totally agree with everyone's responses. Yesterday was a bad day for Jack, and I ended the day feeling very downhearted, even hopeless for Jack's issues. 
So we all sometimes feel like we don't click with our dogs. 

Jack is "afraid" of people and strange dogs. He will toggle from trembling, hiding and petrified (people usually), to confronting the scary thing (dog usually) baring teeth, barking, lunging, chasing. So we had a person and his dog visit yesterday and so Jack was a total mess and went back and forth. 

 Very frustrating. But, he is who he is. I think next time he will just be crated safely out of the way.


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## ChelseaOliver (Nov 5, 2014)

I don't have much to add but you're doing a great job with Watson, and he seems like a great dog. He's still young! and you're still learning. A few things about the situation that came to mind (mind you, I have no experience with this - if a strange dog entered my house my pit bull mix would attack  ) - could picking him up be reinforcing his behaviour? are the dogs allowed to greet/play/blow off steam before being expected to settle?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sassafras said:


> We all have those moments of frustration and despair.


Every freakin' day.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Sometimes this forum feels like a full-on support group. I really don't know how normal people raise dogs without being on the internet asking questions constantly. Sometimes it just helps for people to tell you that no, you're not crazy, and yes, everyone has gone through this/


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

chimunga said:


> Sometimes this forum feels like a full-on support group. I really don't know how normal people raise dogs without being on the internet asking questions constantly. Sometimes it just helps for people to tell you that no, you're not crazy, and yes, everyone has gone through this/


I would be in the corner curled up into a ball and rocking back and forth if it weren't for this forum.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

ChelseaOliver said:


> I don't have much to add but you're doing a great job with Watson, and he seems like a great dog. He's still young! and you're still learning. A few things about the situation that came to mind (mind you, I have no experience with this - if a strange dog entered my house my pit bull mix would attack  ) - could picking him up be reinforcing his behaviour? are the dogs allowed to greet/play/blow off steam before being expected to settle?


Watson tolerates when I pick him up, but he full-on hates it when my husband does. It's actually pretty funny. If it even looks like my husband is going to pick him up, he does this adorable little side-dodge strafe and barks at him. It's because my husband used to pick him up and put him in his crate/ex-pen, as opposed to what I do, which is to lure him. Even though my husband stopped doing that, and started luring him, he still has to fight the last 8 months of negative reinforcement. Lol. A true +R success story.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have found that even after an intense play session, or anything exciting, Lincoln has this bit where he gets crazy and overtired excited and stuff, where if I can get him to be still and decompress a bit, he calms right down, this event is getting less and less as he matures and I know it will go away. He is also realizing he has balls and, of course you know that comes with its own challenges hahaha.

But I get you on trying hard to stay positive, I dont want my puppy to be scared of me, but if he is being a real jerk, I am not hesitant to bark his name like an angry momma, when I use "that certain tone" he knows I mean business and runs back to me all wiggly and sorry.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Definitely feeling your pain today. We really, really need to work on walking on streets that we don't normally walk down. She's great jogging with me in strange areas but walking more slowly? Not gonna happen. I couldn't help but see a few dogs obediently walking on choke chains and feeling a pang of jealousy. The being a tree method doesn't work at all for her so getting creative with her LLW training can be frustrating.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Have you taught him solid self control? If he hasn't been taught self control, he won't know that he can just sit quietly and patiently wait for what he wants. This is a really good way to teach it:


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Have you taught him solid self control? If he hasn't been taught self control, he won't know that he can just sit quietly and patiently wait for what he wants. This is a really good way to teach it:


Oh yes. We preach "It's yer choice." We worked on it really heavily as a puppy. We've teetered off a little, but we work on it atleast once a week.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Have you tried walking with her in another direction? For my GSD being a tree doesn't work, she'll wait but then pull again. But if a do a 180 and walk a few steps in the other direction (I dunno, 10-20), she'll typically not pull after one, max two reps of that. Including past other dogs and people. 

Not sure what it's yer choice is about so I'm sorry if I'm mentioning something already mentioned.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Eenypup said:


> Definitely feeling your pain today. We really, really need to work on walking on streets that we don't normally walk down. She's great jogging with me in strange areas but walking more slowly? Not gonna happen. I couldn't help but see a few dogs obediently walking on choke chains and feeling a pang of jealousy. The being a tree method doesn't work at all for her so getting creative with her LLW training can be frustrating.


With Lincoln I use "easy" command. when he starts pulling, I pull him back and say "easy!" now he will do it, no matter now much he has ants in his pants about going someplace LOL


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

chimunga said:


> Oh yes. We preach "It's yer choice." We worked on it really heavily as a puppy. We've teetered off a little, but we work on it atleast once a week.


Good  I would re-visit it, maybe make it your focus for the next week or two. Also apply it to toys and anything in the environment that he wants, not just food.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Good  I would re-visit it, maybe make it your focus for the next week or two. Also apply it to toys and anything in the environment that he wants, not just food.


That's a good idea. My husband is really terrible. He has enabled Watson to steal his food so many times, that Watson has a heavy history of self reinforcement for stealing my husbands food. I keep telling him to put his food in a place where Watson can't get it, but he always says "I shouldn't have to!" Well, he needs to be taught that he can't have the food before he stops trying to take it. He's not stealing. He just thinks he's allowed to have it. He knows he's not allowed to have my food because he's _never gotten any from me_. If he gets my food, it's from my hand. He has never once gotten food off my plate.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Alla said:


> Have you tried walking with her in another direction? For my GSD being a tree doesn't work, she'll wait but then pull again. But if a do a 180 and walk a few steps in the other direction (I dunno, 10-20), she'll typically not pull after one, max two reps of that. Including past other dogs and people.


I do try that! Most of the time she just finds something in the other direction to pull towards. She's usually pretty good but once she has an off day and is in the mood to sniff and pull... I think I'm going to try and train a solid Look at Me. That's one thing she doesn't know that I think might really help when she's getting distracted and calling her name is a no-go!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Eenypup said:


> I do try that! Most of the time she just finds something in the other direction to pull towards. She's usually pretty good but once she has an off day and is in the mood to sniff and pull... I think I'm going to try and train a solid Look at Me. That's one thing she doesn't know that I think might really help when she's getting distracted and calling her name is a no-go!


I use a rule of thumb of "if you pull, we turn around and walk the other way", regardless of which direction we happen to be walking. At the beginning it was basically me walking 2 steps each way, with her dashing forward to pull in the whatever direction we were now going. Got better really, really fast. She just learned that in order to go towards anything she wants to get to, she can't pull, its counterproductive. Now its just an occasional reminder when we see a dog or a person or a squirrel.

Also, she's never been a hard puller, but the whole thing took us 15 minutes to initially train. Now its just upkeep every few walks.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Eenypup said:


> I do try that! Most of the time she just finds something in the other direction to pull towards. She's usually pretty good but once she has an off day and is in the mood to sniff and pull... I think I'm going to try and train a solid Look at Me. That's one thing she doesn't know that I think might really help when she's getting distracted and calling her name is a no-go!


With Luna we really haven't had much success with either walking the other direction or being a tree. I am -very- consistent, but she still doesn't seem to get it. With 'be a tree' she will stop, look at me, and then it's like she'll give me a few steps back to appease me and then as soon as I start moving again she's at the end of the leash again. 

The thing I have most success with is rewarding when she's in the right spot. I don't do it consistently or frequently enough, but when I make a point to do it she is always MUCH better during that walk. My bf does it more frequently than I do and I've noticed Luna walks much better for him. It's somewhat irritating seeing her walk nicely for him and not me, but I've only got myself to blame!


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

She does the same thing! She totally gets to come back to me if I call her or say "walk on" and will stare at me in a perfect heel until I reward her. A split second later she's at the end of the leash again. Ughhhhh.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Look into reverse luring. Most dogs take the reward as a 'release' and it ends the behavior.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Seems like a similar concept to its yer choice? We've never played that game, do you think it could help our situation? She certainly does take her reward as a release.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

jade5280 said:


> I would be in the corner curled up into a ball and rocking back and forth if it weren't for this forum.


I would only have one dog if it wasn't for this forum.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

And to the op. I think you're doing an amazing job with Watson. I have days like that and both my dogs are 3.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Alla said:


> I use a rule of thumb of "if you pull, we turn around and walk the other way", regardless of which direction we happen to be walking. At the beginning it was basically me walking 2 steps each way, with her dashing forward to pull in the whatever direction we were now going. Got better really, really fast. She just learned that in order to go towards anything she wants to get to, she can't pull, its counterproductive. Now its just an occasional reminder when we see a dog or a person or a squirrel.
> 
> Also, she's never been a hard puller, but the whole thing took us 15 minutes to initially train. Now its just upkeep every few walks.


That never worked with Lincoln, it did with Josefina, but Lincoln was all like "OMG GOING SOMEWHERE ELSE FUN!!!" and would pull LOL.

His problem is similar to the one ILoveDogs (I think thats who it was, if I am mistaken forgive me) was having with her aussie, where the PULLING was self rewarding in of itself, no matter how little she pulled, she still self rewarded, and thats how it was for Lincoln as well. So when he would pull I would stop and pull him back and tell him "easy" and rinse/repeat.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh god Hank was choking himself the other day he was pulling so bad. I also can't seem to get him to understand you can do nose touches without biting my hand.

Oh and Mia is 6 and still screams and over-excites at the drop of a hat.

Trust me, we all have our struggles. And just when you see that one dog doing that one thing you never want to deal with... yup that will be your next dog. 

Keeps us humble.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Oh god Hank was choking himself the other day he was pulling so bad. I also can't seem to get him to understand you can do nose touches without biting my hand.
> 
> Oh and Mia is 6 and still screams and over-excites at the drop of a hat.
> 
> ...


Ha, when Jubel is excited/worked up his nose touches become bites as well...mouthing without gripping but flying dog with flashing teeth still don't feel good on your hand.

I'm going to have to break down and actually do individual walks to work with Daphne on LLW now that it's finally nice weather out (most days at least). She has been doing somewhat better recently but is still pretty damned bad. I switched her to a harness because she was choking herself. One of my least favorite things to work on is LLW. *sigh*


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Watson pretty much always does open mouth nose touches. I tried to train it out, but then realized I didn't care because he enjoyed it and wasn't biting down. I used to think he bit pretty hard, but now I realize he actually has a pretty soft mouth true to spaniels. Very handy with a dog who bites you all the time. Haha.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Eenypup said:


> She does the same thing! She totally gets to come back to me if I call her or say "walk on" and will stare at me in a perfect heel until I reward her. A split second later she's at the end of the leash again. Ughhhhh.


Watson did the same thing for a while too. So I just upped the ante. I would call him into a "Watch me" which puts him in a perfect heel. Then I would just SHOVEL FOOD IN HIS MOUTH. Like straight up click treat click treat click treat. Then I'd slowwwly start to space the treats out. I'm at the point now where I usually give him click+treat every ten steps or so if he's in a "watch me." Now anytime I stick a pointer finger up, which is his general sign for watch me, he goes into a perfect walking heel and watches me the whole time. He's awesome at it.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

d_ray said:


> I would only have one dog if it wasn't for this forum.


yup same.


Also for loose leash I keep REALLY stinky treat in a hip treat pouch, Keeps Manna in a pretty nice voluntary heel 90% of the time. Doesn't work on Vitae though because food isn't exciting. I have to have a squeaky toy in my hand for Vitae.

Be a tree and penalty yards never worked for me but I noticed that making us both dizzy walking in tight circles does work on both dogs.


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> That never worked with Lincoln, it did with Josefina, but Lincoln was all like "OMG GOING SOMEWHERE ELSE FUN!!!" and would pull LOL.
> 
> His problem is similar to the one ILoveDogs (I think thats who it was, if I am mistaken forgive me) was having with her aussie, where the PULLING was self rewarding in of itself, no matter how little she pulled, she still self rewarded, and thats how it was for Lincoln as well. So when he would pull I would stop and pull him back and tell him "easy" and rinse/repeat.


Odd question, but I have a problem with Henry pulling backwards. He won't keep up on walks because he's constantly stopping or turning back to sniff. I've tried a few different techniques here suggested by PetSmart trainer, but wondering what you all would do? I'm already going the "opposite" way of where he wants to go, if that makes sense?


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

hounddawg said:


> Odd question, but I have a problem with Henry pulling backwards. He won't keep up on walks because he's constantly stopping or turning back to sniff. I've tried a few different techniques here suggested by PetSmart trainer, but wondering what you all would do? I'm already going the "opposite" way of where he wants to go, if that makes sense?


Maybe try silky leash (it's a training technique not a product) it basically teaches a dog that yielding to leash pressure means good things.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Oh god Hank was choking himself the other day he was pulling so bad. I also can't seem to get him to understand you can do nose touches without biting my hand.
> 
> Oh and Mia is 6 and still screams and over-excites at the drop of a hat.
> 
> ...


This.

Before I got lincoln if I saw a dog or pup doing what he does I would be like "how does that owner deal???" But now that I have a dog like that, strangely, those things I thought would bother me don't in some ways they are FUN. It is a challenge and it is FUN.

Am I weird?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

d_ray said:


> I would only have one dog if it wasn't for this forum.


I wouldn't have my Squashies without this forum


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

hounddawg said:


> Odd question, but I have a problem with Henry pulling backwards. He won't keep up on walks because he's constantly stopping or turning back to sniff. I've tried a few different techniques here suggested by PetSmart trainer, but wondering what you all would do? I'm already going the "opposite" way of where he wants to go, if that makes sense?


Maybe let him sniff for a bit, then teach a "lets go" command? Lincoln LOVES to sniff all the things, but he is off leash now (and this only works if your dog cares about being with you like mine does LOL, or else I wouldnt have used it) so I just keep walking. He wears a bell on his collar, so I dont have to always be watching him and can truly ignore him until he catches up, then I would treat him, I am phasing out treats for his toy now.

Of course I started this in a safe, fenced area and when he was younger I would do what I called "hide and seek" where I would call him, and if he didnt pay attention, I would duck behind something and hide (like i said, he wore a Bell so I could here when he was coming) I had treats ready and when he would appear around the corner, I would have a party and make a big deal out of it. Needless to say he got really good at finding me LOL


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I think I'm crazy. We were doing pretty well on our walk today... But I felt bad! The look she gave me every time I wouldn't let her pull toward something was not my favorite. She was so annoyed and not enjoying her walk at all! I want her to walk nicely but also enjoy herself. Difficult in a city because pulling out past people to sniff something is not safe or fun for me at all.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Eenypup said:


> I think I'm crazy. We were doing pretty well on our walk today... But I felt bad! The look she gave me every time I wouldn't let her pull toward something was not my favorite. She was so annoyed and not enjoying her walk at all! I want her to walk nicely but also enjoy herself. Difficult in a city because pulling out past people to sniff something is not safe or fun for me at all.


In light of the greater good, she just might have to deal with being annoyed for a while til she finally accepts that she cant just go and sniff whenever she wants, maybe train a marker word so she knows when it is ok for sniffing time and a marker word for when sniffing time is over?


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## K9 3X (Apr 17, 2015)

I'd start by having the meet and greet start outside with your dog on leash and collar. Have your friends call you a few minutes before their arrival, so you can be outside before their arrival. Since your dog is displaying good skills at obedience classes, utilize these skills in the driveway as your guests arrive. I'm guessing your dog is more calm when meeting others out on walks or in other venues, such as training class. I'd start with enough distance between you and your dog and your company to keep the dog focused on you and able to keeps it's cool. Lessen the distance between your friends and their dogs as you conduct some basic obedience with your dog. Your dog goes off and loses it crap, walk away and start at point where you have command and control of your dog. The situation you described in your original post is almost a no win situation. The dog is all amped up and then the situation is exacerbated by picking the dog up, along with the dog's struggling to become free from your grasp as well as your heightened agitation/frustration/energy level. The dynamic is going completely in the wrong direction. Basically, your dog in the situation you describe is over threshold and needs to be reset. Take advantage of the benefit that you have with a couple of relatively calm dogs to incorporate in your training process when they come over to visit. One can never lose by upping the obedience and it sounds like you are on your way. So, if your friends are willing to be patient and spend 10 minutes in the driveway while you work with your dog at a distance, it's a wonderful opportunity. If your dog is heeling reasonable well, start some structured heeling and make some arcs which close the gap to all which makes your dog lose its marbles but do not get close enough to get the dog over threshold. You have stated that you can get your dog's focus fairly easy, I would strongly recommend you use this skill set especially when you are heeling your dog in the arc which will put the dogs face to face, even at a distance. Keep the dog focused on you while your company is patiently awaiting. Of course indulge the dog for it's compliance and calm via your marker and reward as well as whatever corrections you use for unsuitable behavior. During the controlled heeling and closing the distance toward the trigger, the moment you see the slightest change in your dog which might be subtle and usually is, do an about face and reset the dog and try again. It's a process which might take some time but with the obedience being conducted around the trigger the dog will learn you are in charge and the dog's behavior will be focused on you working as a team and a calm should ultimately prevail.

Once you have accomplished a reasonable meet and greet outside, take the process inside, using leash and collar as well.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

As much as we hate to admit it, lack of a consequence (of course no one should be abusing their dog, though) isnt enough for some dogs. Mine work for rewards and PR, of course, but they also know that if they DONT do something they are also going to LOSE something, whatever might be important to them.


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