# German Shepherds



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I was just wondering if anyone knew why GSDs standard is to have their backs pretty much slanted? Is that a show thing or was it for a actually important purpose? 
The reason I'm asking is because I know someone that is planning on breeding GSDs but he's breeding them straightbacked becuase they aren't going to be show dogs. They have very good bloodlines and he was on a waiting list for almost 2 years before he got his bitch tha he's going to breed. He's breeding her to a long haired male GSD. I guess they're called, Old Fashioned German Sherpherds or something.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

You could check with a breed club or the AKC website for the breed standard. Sounds like your friend could use a little education before breeding dogs.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Extreme angulation is the result of conformation. At some point someone thought that the slant of the GSD's back illustrated its motor functions, thus they bred for an illustration of this motor function. All of it is nothing more than theory, opinion, or beliefs. There is very little if anything to substantiate whether there is truth for or against these theories.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

briteday said:


> You could check with a breed club or the AKC website for the breed standard. Sounds like your friend could use a little education before breeding dogs.


He doesn't want to go by breed standard because the standard is all about looks. He wants a straightbacked GSD not one with a slanted back that will be more likely to cause his dogs hip problems in the future. I just wanted to know the history behind this whole slanted back thing because so far all I've heard is about looks and nothing usefull for the dogs health.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

From what I understand and I could be wrong, but the slanted stance is the American bred GSD. That particular stance is what is needed in the show ring and the dogs are bred for that. I've seen American bred GSDs at dog shows that looked so deformed I cried for them.

True German bloodlines do not have that slanted stance. They are more as you call it straight backed. 

All my GSDs have been German bloodlines and not one has that slanted stance.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Yeah it's so sad what people put a dog through just for a pecific look. I like the look of a German Shepherd that has a straight back and is of a larger size. I think they look better and healthier.


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## Renoman (Mar 20, 2007)

And it's all in the quest for a Blue Ribbon - how terribly sad.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I worked with a breeder/trainer that had GSDs, training and I know that all of his has slanted backs. They were healthy and very athletic so it didn't effect them, some were more slanted then others. He has breed for years and trained including police dogs so he knew his stuff and I learned alot from him training.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Actually GSDs are very complicated. American show lines have the extremely sloped backs like you see- but a lot of that is the way they're stacked. It varies some anyways. German lines can be roached an awful lot as well. 

Umm... there's a website here:

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/Index_Page/Index_Page.htm

I'm pretty sure long hair isn't really acceptable no matter what type of GSD you have. 

But you people shouldn't be so harsh as to judge some of the american dogs. Some look horrible moving, but many are very athletic dogs. To me the extreme angulation is no worse than the extreme roaching you see in other lines. Some show GSDs are just way overdone though.

Here's what the site says about old style GSDs though:



> German Shepherd Dog, Old Style (Old Fashioned, Original, Old World etc). This appears to be an attempt to return to the good old days of the breed, with dogs exceeding 30" at the withers, and well over 100 pounds in weight. They are advertised as being "flat backed" and "straight backed", in reference to the excessive slope of some American show dogs and the roaching of some German show dogs. Many are long haired.
> 
> In fact, excess size, long hair, placid temperament and high rear ends were never considered desirable in the GSD. Although these problems did exist in the original foundation dogs, which varied widely in type, concientious breeders have striven to breed out these faults.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I'm not against in any way with how the dog is shown as long as it's not too over done and I think that a lot of breeders go over board with the way they have a german shepherds backs looking lately. It might be fine and not affect the dog but messing with a dogs back legs that much so that it has a sloped body can't be too good for it's hips and back any more then getting the dogs spine to slope upwards too much. My friends dogs don't have too high of a back or too much of a slopeing of the back. They look good and I think they look better then any other way but that's just my opinion. I don't doubt that a reputable breeder can breed a very sloped back into a German Shepherd and do a good job at it but I still think it doesn't look that good and could cause problems in the future.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I realized I linked the wrong page- http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/13_Breed_Type/Breed_Types.html

That one is the one relating to the topic.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Thanks for the link. I found the type my friend plans on breeding...it's the Old Style german shepherd. The one with the long hair and the one under that are probably what he's going for and I think they look much better then sloped or high up backs. They look normal that way, or atleast to me they do. His male is long haired and female is short haired. Both have the straight back and the male is gorgeous. I want a puppy but that won't happen for a while and I'll probably get a long haired one. His last dog was huge and most of his other GSDs have been pretty big. Over 100 pounds, I like the larger look to them too. I don't know why anyone would ever want to make the breed standard what it is today.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My favorites are the old american show line dogs. That's how I think GSDs should look. My least favorite is the new american show line- ironic no?


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## vedo (Nov 13, 2006)

Vedo is a "working line German Shepherd." He is not from the American AKC line. He has East German lines. He is very different from the American Akc's and was bread for working....agility, intelligence, temperment, tracking, etc. The American Shepherds were bread for looks and the show ring....and I think the breed has suffered for it. Vedo has something called "high prey drive" which makes him as agile and quick as a cat...you could never drag a stick or something infront of him...he would go mad to get it. He is not agressive or violent...when he encounters something unexpected or foreign, he is very calm and endeavors to examine it....I guess I could go on...and on...better stop.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Hi...I'm Xeph, I'm new, I'll post a proper intro thread later.

I've been reading this thread, and there's a number of things I wish to address, starting with this:



> Vedo has something called "high prey drive" which makes him as agile and quick as a cat...


Prey drive has jack crap to do with agility ^_^ My Old Man, Ranger, is almost 10 years old, has a rather nasty prey drive...his agility is absolute crap. He can't turn all that well or anything, part of that is age, part of that is build. He's American/West German. Retired narc dog (nice hunt drive).

Issue #2



> His last dog was huge and most of his other GSDs have been pretty big. Over 100 pounds, I like the larger look to them too. I don't know why anyone would ever want to make the breed standard what it is today.


GSDs are meant to be a medium-large breed, not extra large. They should NOT exceed 90 lbs (the German standard says 88.3 for males, the Americans just rounded up to 90). Females should be 70-75.

Males should not exceed 26" females 24".

The people who are breeding "Old Style German Shepherds" are liars, are really believe they're breeding correctly. They're not. In fact, the GSD was SMALLER back in the day, than they are now! A proper GSD is not a 30" behemoth that weighs 115! It's TOO BIG!


Issue #3


> True German bloodlines do not have that slanted stance. They are more as you call it straight backed.


This is both true and untrue. Depends on how they're stacked. I can make my 3 year old male (Primarily west german high lines) appear to have an extreme topline when he really doesn't. American showlines have straight backs when standing four square, but when you stack them, the hind quarters drop.

The Germans like to see a short coupled dog, so they stack the dogs closer in the rear to make the loin appear shorter. Americans like to see a more extreme dog, so the handler will stretch the dog, or even pinch a nerve in the hip at times to make the dog squat and look more extreme in topline.

Issue #4
The angulation in the rear (because it is the hind angulation that causes the topline to slope) does NOT cause hip dysplasia or anything of the like. True enough however, that in later years, the dog may have trouble getting around because of excessive angulation, but it is NOT because of pain (unless it's from arthritis), it is simply because the amount of angulation has become too much for the dog to handle.

Also, a GSD shown in all breed conformation shows is going to differ from GSDs shown in specialties. I can get pictures of the differences if you like.

Issue #5


> He doesn't want to go by breed standard because the standard is all about looks.


That's absolute bull pucky, sorry to tell ya. The standard describes a full functioning WORKING DOG. However, all standards are open to interpretation, and three things ruin a proper working dog.

One is corrupted judges, the another is corrupted breeders, and the other is people who aren't knowledgeable of the proper structure of a working dog. 

The GSD standard describes the proper structure of a working German Shepherd Dog, however, when breeders started breeding for more extreme angulation, what people ended up seeing a dog with this extreme, fluid, effortless gait, known as the flying trot.

People automatically assume that such a dog is better than a dog who is more moderate in angulation, because it's covering more ground in less steps. Not true. Many are very loosely ligamented and are only giving the illusion of a good mover. No way they'd hold up working 200+ sheep all day every day.

It's not the standard's fault. It's how it's interpreted and how the dogs are judged


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Take a look at my beautiful GSD, he had a straight back and was a true German German Shepherd. Extremely agile with absolutely no hip problems. Don't fall for the slant backs that are not near as pretty IMO.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Extremely agile with absolutely no hip problems.


But a straight back doesn't guarantee your GSD won't have hip troubles.

Dysplasia runs in ALL lines of GSDs. Geneticists are about 98% sure that Dysplasia is genetic. It can be environmental, but it's very heavily based on genetics.


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## German Shepherd Lover (Dec 22, 2006)

Xeph said:


> But a straight back doesn't guarantee your GSD won't have hip troubles.
> 
> Dysplasia runs in ALL lines of GSDs. Geneticists are about 98% sure that Dysplasia is genetic. It can be environmental, but it's very heavily based on genetics.


That is very true and I did not mean to imply that a straight back assured no hip problems. Keep in mind though, why would you want to make a dog walk uphill all of its life when you get the slanted back?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Keep in mind though, why would you want to make a dog walk uphill all of its life when you get the slanted back?


I personally think a more accurate description is a dog walkin' around on blown shocks (loose ligamentation).

The dog still walks straight, his hips don't drop..but if things aren't tight, the dog ain't gonna last


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

I own American line shepherds (mine have the look of the 60's American shepherds) and east working lines shepherds with one of my females having west show line in her pedigree. 



> I was just wondering if anyone knew why GSDs standard is to have their backs pretty much slanted? Is that a show thing or was it for a actually important purpose?
> The reason I'm asking is because I know someone that is planning on breeding GSDs but he's breeding them straightbacked becuase they aren't going to be show dogs. They have very good bloodlines and he was on a waiting list for almost 2 years before he got his bitch tha he's going to breed. He's breeding her to a long haired male GSD. I guess they're called, Old Fashioned German Sherpherds or something.


Most of the slant backs you see in the American types is the way their are stacked. They are bred for their flying trot.

The long coated shepherds are looked down upon by a lot of shepherd breeders. They are considered a fault by AKC and FCI. There is no such thing as an Old Fashioned German Shepherd when it comes to large long coat. If that was the case then the east, czech and slovakian working line shepherds would be called that. They are the true shepherds.

This is the first German Shepherd






Horand von Grafrath



> He doesn't want to go by breed standard because the standard is all about looks.


Then he is breeding for wrong reason. There is a standard for a reason and it does not have to do with looks. 

Hip and elbow problems can be genetic but feeding and care can play a role in this also.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

True. I don't think he's planning on going against the standard completely. He's following the standard with everything but the back and there are so many different ways you can breed a GSDs back to look like. You could go by the German standard of the breed or the American. He chose to not go by the American standard because he doesn't like the way it looks. That picture of the first german shephard that you posted above is what his dogs backs look like. 
I don't think he's specifaclly breeding for long haired coats, it's more a mix of both. I like the GSDs with long hair. They have chihauhuas with long hair so why not GSDs?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

xoxluvablexox said:


> I like the GSDs with long hair. They have chihauhuas with long hair so why not GSDs?


Because it goes against the standard, simple as that. The differences between the American and German standard are actually quite minute. The difference in the angulation of the pasterns in the German standard is, I believe only, a 1 or 2 degree difference in comparison to the American standard.

Longhaired GSDs are harder to groom, hold more water in their coats *thus take longer to dry), they tangle, etc etc. A Shepherd doesn't want to spend his whole day grooming out his dog before he sends him out to work the sheep again. He wants a dog well insulated, but easy to groom and care for.

It takes a lot longer to pull a burr out of the pants of a long coat than it does the pants of a proper standard coat.

I certainly wouldn't recommend your BF as a reputable breeder to anybody if he's breeding against the standard. You either fall the standard completely, or you don't follow the standard at all, and the latter folk are ones who shouldn't be bought from.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Was it always apart of the breed standard for chihuahuas to be shown with long hair as well as short? Breed standards change over time and there really aren't many shepards anymore in need of dogs to be put to work so who knows wether or not that standard will change in the future as more and more people start to realize that long haired german shephards are pretty much gorgeous dogs that deserve to be apart of the standard. 
I hate how the AKC standard controls how people breed there dogs or what they do with there dogs. Like tail docking and ear cropping. No only would I have to chop my poodles tail of but I would have to stick him in black dye because he's not all one color. He's considered a shodowed poodle I think. Black with silver markings. I like poodle that are more then one color but that's not part of the standard so if I chose to breed them I would be considered a bad breeder even though I love parti poodles and want to breed them the best I can. I hate BYB and dogmills like everyone else on here and I agree that going against breed standard usually isn't a good idea. I just think some of these standards are out dated and need to be gotten rid as soon as possible. 
I think what my friend is focusing on is breeding out bad hips in GSDs and the way he is doing it is by getting rid of all the deforming that has been done to make the GSD look the way it does. I'm not really sure I havn't talked to him about all his ideas and what he wants to acommplish by breeding but I think that's a large part of it. I think it's a good idea, if he wants to make the GSD a better breed and try and get rid of one of te largest health problems they have then I think he's doing his best for the breed he loves. That's my opinion.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

> They have chihauhuas with long hair so why not GSDs?


The long coated shepherds do not have a under coat to them. Their coat is not weatherproof as the standard coat. They are easily to get cold and wet then the standard coated shepherd. This was looked down upon when it came to herding and working outside during the cold winter months. But they were shown for a while in the show ring but did not do to will a long side the standard coat and on down the road the FCI changed the coat standard and then AKC and SV followed.

Now there is a plush coated shepherd that does have a under coat. The coat isn't so much long like the long coat. 

long coat is a recessive gene.



> I think what my friend is focusing on is breeding out bad hips in GSDs and the way he is doing it is by getting rid of all the deforming that has been done to make the GSD look the way it does. I'm not really sure I havn't talked to him about all his ideas and what he wants to acommplish by breeding but I think that's a large part of it. I think it's a good idea, if he wants to make the GSD a better breed and try and get rid of one of te largest health problems they have then I think he's doing his best for the breed he loves. That's my opinion.


He will have a long road a head of him. He should be looking at the hip/elbow scoring with in the pedigree. Dogs that have either A stamp normal, OFA excellent or good or PennHip being in the rang of 0.29 to 0.39 (that is excellent to good hip rating). Then he is on the right track. 

The German Shepherd Dog was bred for a purpose. Even Captain Max von Stephanitz seen the long coated shepherd as a fault.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

There are SO many statements that are wrong in that post, I don't know where to start, so I'm just picking a place.

#1


> I think what my friend is focusing on is breeding out bad hips in GSDs and the way he is doing it is by getting rid of all the deforming that has been done to make the GSD look the way it does.


You can't breed out bad hips. It's simple as that. You can improve upon hips, but there is always the chance of a dog being dysplastic. Breeding an OFA excellent rated dog to another OFA excellent dog does not = OFA Excellent puppies. You can still get a dysplastic puppy or dysplastic litter!

You increase the odds in your favor that you won't get a pup with bad hips and/or elbows, but it is not a 100% guarantee that your dog won't be dysplastic.



> I hate how the AKC standard controls how people breed there dogs or what they do with there dogs.


Hate to tell you, but it's not really the "AKC Standard" it's the standard set forth by the national breed clubs. AKC has to approve any changes, but it is the breed club that decides what the standard is.

Standards change, yes, but they do not change often and they do not change a lot. It's miniscule things, and things that are changed are changed after a LOT of research has been done.

You want a long haired dog? Get a Great Pyrenees, or a Kuvasz, or a Shetland Sheepdog. The GSD is supposed to be a short coated dog, and that is that.



> there really aren't many shepards anymore in need of dogs to be put to work


The German Shepherd Dog is NOT just a herding dog. It is a seeing eye dog, a service dog, a POLICE dog. 



> long haired german shephards are pretty much gorgeous dogs that deserve to be apart of the standard.


Theya re gorgeous, and they are part of the standard...as a fault. Not even a SERIOUS fault, just a fault...but when you have thousands and thousands of properly coated dogs to breed to, why would you breed a long hair? Sorry, but "Because they're pretty" isn't a good and viable reason.

You start ignoring one part of the standard, why not ignore all of it? Why not allow whites to be shown? Why should both my dogs ears have to stand in order to show him? Well, I should be able to show my dog with missing teeth if I want to!



> He's considered a shodowed poodle I think. Black with silver markings.


It's called a Phantom, and they're showable in UKC.

The standard is not the ruination of a breed...IGNORING the standard is the ruination of a breed.



> I just think some of these standards are out dated and need to be gotten rid as soon as possible.


You know what the best part of creating your own breed is? You get to make the rules. Max von Stephanitz is the basic creator of the GSD...so he got to make the rules. No whites, and long coats are a fault.

When your friend wants to make their own breed, they can make the standard however they want, but until then, the standard should be followed. And it's not just the "AKC standard" It's the AKC/FCI/SV/CanKC standard.

Captain von Stephanitz is probably rolling over in his grave with what we've done to his breed, and we don't need more people ignoring the standard to suit their own fancy.

It's simple.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

OH! That's what it is... haha. It's not long haired then. I looked up plush coated german shepherds and the dog looks just like the male GSD he has. Woops. I thought it was long haired...hmm. 

http://longcoatgermanshepherds.homestead.com/files/WolfG_on_stairs.jpg

That looks kind of like his dogs coat. So I guess he's breeding the plush coated dog with the short haired one.

The pick I poasted was long coated but that's for the coloring. Sorry didn't say that under the pick. His dog has that coloring with the plush coat. It's really pretty.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Does he even know what the color is called? Does he know about Am Showlines, west german showlines, east german/ddr lines, Czech lines?

Breeding is more than just throwing two dogs together and letting them have at it. Dogs need OFA ratings, titles, health testing, etc etc etc. And all that costs $$$$


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Okay sorry xeph, I'm not the one breeding the dog so I don't know the specifics of it at all. I know he's breeding the way he is for the hips. So since you say it can't be bred out of the dog then what he's probably focused on is improving the hip problems these dogs have as best as he can. If the longed haired german shepherds aren't considered a serious fault then there is nothing wrong with breeding them but after looking at some pictures I don't think that is what he is breeding. I'm pretty sure the male has a plush coat because it isn't THAT long but it is longer then a short haired GSD. 
I doubt Captain von Stephanitz wanted his GSD standard to cause the dog to look deformed in the future. Some breeders breed there dogs with a healthy looking slant to their back or with a healthy looking roached back and then others just make their dogs look horribly deformed. Those dogs shouldn't be allowed to be shown any more the a white GSD but they are. 

Thanks for reminding me that it's called phantom. I read up on it when I got my dog but I just couldn't think of what it was called. I didn't think they went by AKC standards? Last time I read the standards it said solid colors only? Maybe I was mistaking, I'll read over it again.



Xeph said:


> Does he even know what the color is called? Does he know about Am Showlines, west german showlines, east german/ddr lines, Czech lines?
> 
> Breeding is more than just throwing two dogs together and letting them have at it. Dogs need OFA ratings, titles, health testing, etc etc etc. And all that costs $$$$


I know about all of that and am more the possitive he does to. I was going to argue with him about showing his dogs but he obviously can't because they are GSDs with straight backs.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

> I was going to argue with him about showing his dogs but he obviously can't because they are GSDs with straight backs.


Straight backs can be shown in the ring.

This is one of my working line females. One of her ggrandfather on her sire side is SG Alk von Osterburg Quell, you can read about him here http://www.viclink.com/~kadamigs/Alk.htm.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

The AKC standard says that the back is straight and can't sag or roach and is short. Why does it seem then that the GSDs in shows have long backs that slope? Where does the sloping come in? I don't even see anything about it in the standard but I'm guessing it has to be somewhere.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

Here this might help you out http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm

What ever is winning in the show ring that is what American show breeders will strive for. Just like the German show breeders. But just remember showing isn't not everything. There is a lot more to a German Shepherd then being in the show ring.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think this one is the most useful, but that's just me:

http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/12_Type_Comparison/Comparison_Types.html

And this is why GSDs confuse me, though I love the breed. Too many types! 

And all the other links off of that page of course: http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/06_Overall_Structure/Overall_Structure.html


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## vedo (Nov 13, 2006)

luv4gsds said:


> Straight backs can be shown in the ring.
> 
> This is one of my working line females. One of her ggrandfather on her sire side is SG Alk von Osterburg Quell, you can read about him here http://www.viclink.com/~kadamigs/Alk.htm.



Vedo looks like this..........very grand looking.


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## cowboy (Apr 11, 2007)

Since everyone seems to agree that the standard was put in place by the founder of the breed and should be followed as closely as possible, I was wondering what everyone's opinion of breeding whites and now the so called pandas might be. Are they considered just another designer breed also?


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

My old dog Maggie was given to us by my uncle who bred GSD's for almost 40 some odd years. She was straight backed and had German bloodlines. He had two males and three females all from imported German bloodlines. He doesn't breed anymore but all the pups he ever bred were straight backed and they were show and working dogs who consistently won at trials, shows, etc. I don't like the slanted back very much, I think it makes the dog look rather ridiculous and un-natural but then I think cropping ears and docking tails does the same thing.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

AGREED! I like the floppy eared dog look, not the cut up dog ear look. As I said earlier some of the stanards need to be updated. A lot of the ear cropping and tail docking was done because the dogs were either used for fighting or hard work. I would like the option of showing my dog without the need to dock it's tail and I don't think I have that option wich isn't fair in my opinion. 

As for white GSDs, they aren't apart of the breed standard. They get dicaulified right away. It's not a major fault it's a complete, "get out of the show ring" type of thing. I think they look pretty and I'm not sure for the reasoning against it but I'm sure it has something to do with coat caulity. It could be as pathetic as it gets too dirty or something as logical as white caoted GSDs are more prone to blindness. I'm really not sure.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I was wondering what everyone's opinion of breeding whites and now the so called pandas might be.


That should be a new thread in and of itself. It ticks me off that the FCI accepted whites as the "Berger Blanc de Suisse" as NO new blood at all in the "Creation" of this breed! They are PURE shepherds, and there are STILL people breeding whites to colored GSDs!

*Eyetwitch*

It also bothers me that people speak of "straight backs" and "Slant backs". I took me awhile to wrap my brain around this as well, I admit, but *straight* does *not* mean *horizontal*!

Look at buildings with corners at 45 degree angles. The partitions are *straight*, but not horizontal.

Also, the slope in the topline is not caused by the hips, it is caused by the way the bones meet in the hindquarters (Thigh bone to stifle)


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Xeph you obviously know a lot about the breed. Do you breed GSDs? If so what kind and what standard do you go by? Obviously straight doesn't mean horizontal, straight is anything that doesn't have a large curve at the end. The pitures of seen of GSDs look like their butt fell 4 inches from the rest of it's body. That to me is not straight.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Haven't bred a darned thing yet. In fact, my very first GSD is a $250, backyard bred, one flop eared, poorly pigmented sweetheart that I bought myself as a graduation gift.

I know "some" about the breed, I'm always learning and always will be learning. I personally love all three lines (American Show, German Show, and East German/Czech working) for different reasons.

My current GSD is 3 years of age, and we participate in everything but conformation (floppy ear). I go by the AKC standard. I can still breed a moderately angulated dog that will win in the AKC show ring, and I can still breed a functional dog that can do work going by the AKC standard.

As I said before and will continue saying, it is not the standard that is the problem, it is how it is interpreted.

Just because their butt touches the floor (and some of the males testicles even touch the floor, and I don't find them attractive), doesn't mean the topline is not straight. The topline is still straight, it's just angling like \ instead of like ------

Some of those stacks are made to be extreme. The handler pinches a nerve in the hip to make them squat, or stacks them at ridiculous angles.

http://www.fluffyrat.net/wildfyre/Strauss3Years.jpg <--my male, Strauss. What do you think? Extreme, or not?

http://www.fluffyrat.net/wildfyre/Veterans.gif <--my veteran male, Ranger. What do you think? Extreme, or not?


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

That's cute. I've never seen a GSD with floppy ears. 

Your dogs or gorgeous but the last one does look like the back is roached?
That could also be the way he's standing and the angle of the camera.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

> Since everyone seems to agree that the standard was put in place by the founder of the breed and should be followed as closely as possible, I was wondering what everyone's opinion of breeding whites and now the so called pandas might be. Are they considered just another designer breed also?


This is a very tough issue and subject in the German Shepherd world. 

I fostered a White German Shepherd for a while. 

White German Shepherds were once allowed to be shown in the ring for a while up until the 60's when the GSDCA changed their standard. Horand V Grafrath grandfather was a White German Shepherd named Greif von Sparwasser. Some say that the Nazis took over the SV and then done away with the White German Shepherd. Captain Max von Stephanitz stated, The coloring of the dog has no significance whatsoever for service.

Things are started to change for the White German Shepherd. In the states they are starting to call them American White Shepherd they even have a club which is the American White Shepherd Association. In Australia they are called White Swiss Shepherd and they even have a club called White Swiss Shepherd Dog Club of Australia. 

As for the Panda Shepherds that is a whole new can of worms that I will not open up.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

That poor dog. If I named my dog von something I would probably forget how to say it. No offense to people that name there dogs like that or anything. I'ed just get confused. 
What's a panda shepherd? I haven't even heard of that one.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Nope, not roached. It's the craptacular angle of the photographer >.< Makes his front look wonky too.

And people comment on Strauss' "cute" floppy ear all the time...but I hate that ear. I love Strauss to death, but I despise that ear, and I wish every day that it had stood >.<

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z304/Redhawkgsd/abby.jpg <--there's a gorgeous lookin bitch

Also, a dog's registered name is much like our legal name. People don't walk around calling me "Jacqueline Jean Short"...they call me Jackie. I certainly don't refer to my dogs as "S Konzert vom Drachenberg" and "Adobe's Warrior" all the time xD

I call them Strauss and Ranger.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

> What's a panda shepherd? I haven't even heard of that one.


http://www.pandashepherds.com/


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Wow! Panda Shepherds look SO cool! I would love to have a dog like that! Of course it would have to be from the humane society, I would never buy from a breeder unless they had AKC dogs. And we all know the rest of the qualifications.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Oh wow, that looks nothing like a GSD in my opinion. It just looks like a GSD mix or something. 

Xeph that bitch is deff very gorgeous and her body doesn't look painfully slanted at all. That's the way I think all GSDs should like like. That's a perfect example of a great GSD. 

I know the name isn't what you would normally call your dog but I'ed still manage to forget the registered name. To be perfectly honest I can't even remember my dogs registered name. I'ed have to go look for his registration papers. If I showed him I would probably get to know it by heart though.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

The panda shepherds look like mixes.
Xeph, your dogs are georgeous and I don't think their backs are too slopped at all. I hate the backs so slopped that they could almost be sitting or when they testicles touch the floor.....it doesn't look attractive IMO. But anyways. My shepherd Maggie did have a slightly slopped back. Alot of people thought she was a mix because her entire coat was grizzled face, back, belly, legs, tail....the whole kut a caboodle. But she was pure bred. My mom arranged with my uncle to get her for my dad as a birthday gift and my dad actually thought something was wrong with her because he didn't know my mom paid for her at the time haha!
We couldn't use her as a show dog because she was too tall and her front paws were very bowed outwards but she was a great family dog. My dad did agility and obedience with her and a little bit of shutzhund also.


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