# Growling. Listen to the dog or give a correction?



## sugarr (Jan 21, 2011)

I've recently found an interesting topic on one of the polish dog forums. 
In that topic users were arguing whether person should correct a growling dog or 'listen' to the dog and leave it alone.

The most common argument pro correcting was that you should not let your dog terrorize you and not to show that you'll step back when the dog growls (so the dog gets what he wanted and probably will do it again)

The argument against was that if you correct the growl the dog will learn not to warn before the attack and next time will go straight to biting...

I am personally pro correcting in this situation and I don't see how a normal dog would ever stop warning because it's their natural behavior and I think that if you give the correction even right before the growl (you can see changes in ears, eyes etc) the dog will be perfectly aware of what the correction was for...
The one exception I could make and let my own dog growl would be if after many years of being a gentle, nice dog with no agression my pup would suddenly growl when I try to touch... I would first concider health issues then think about the agression problem.

What do you guys think?


Oh and this is only about our own dogs, obviously if some strange dog would growl at me I definitely 'listen' and try to save my ass :wink:


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Punishing the growl WILL make the dog go straight to the bite (maybe not all dogs, but probably most)--I've met dogs like that. Scary, although the ones I know are all tiny dogs, if they were bigger they would have been PTS already. I don't think you should do nothing, however. If your dog growls at you, listen to the growl right at that moment, but from then on, work at fixing whatever caused the dog to growl at you.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

sugarr said:


> I am personally pro correcting in this situation and I don't see how a normal dog would ever stop warning because it's their natural behavior and *I think that if you give the correction even right before the growl (you can see changes in ears, eyes etc) the dog will be perfectly aware of what the correction was for*...


Growling *is* normal dog behavior and the laws of learning suggest otherwise (of the bolded). Growling is respondent behavior, thus change would not follow the rules of operant conditioning (essentially what you're suggesting).


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

sugarr said:


> I've recently found an interesting topic on one of the polish dog forums.
> In that topic users were arguing whether person should correct a growling dog or 'listen' to the dog and leave it alone.
> 
> The most common argument pro correcting was that you should not let your dog terrorize you and not to show that you'll step back when the dog growls (so the dog gets what he wanted and probably will do it again)
> ...


Think of it this way. If a friend comes up to you, and takes a pencil out of your hand, what do you do? You "Hey, um, I was using that!" Then they slapped your hand because you objected. The next three times you're writing, they come up, take the pencil, and slap you if you object. What's going to happen the fourth time? You're going to do something stronger than verbally objecting, because that didn't work! You have to escalate your behavior if you want to keep writing. You (and the dog) have learned that a warning doesn't work, and gets you slapped. So instead of stiffening, growling, and moving away, a dog can go straight to a bite because he's learned he has to shout to be listen to.

Depending on the situation, I would probably ignore it. If my dog growled at me when I went to take his chew away, I'd let it go and wait until he got distracted to remove it. He probably wouldn't get high value chews for a while and we'd work more on trading, but honestly most growling isn't a big deal to me. It's the dog giving you information, "I don't like this, and feel like I might need to take action soon." In general my dog makes bad decisions when he takes action on his own, so that's information for me to change the situation so he doesn't feel that way.


----------



## 3Lab (Jun 4, 2010)

The cause of the growl needs to be determined, and that is what needs to be given attention and changed. The growl is just the result, it's a reaction to a stimuli. An owner needs to address the stimulus and go from there to hopefully prevent the growling.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I need to know WHAT my dog is growling about first and foremost. My big boy growled at me a couple weeks back because I was doing his nails (he really doesn't like it). It's not a common occurence. While I did tell him to cut it out, I took a small break with him, checked his feet to make sure there were no injuries, and then continued doing what I was doing. There were no further complaints.

If my dog growled at a small child, not gonna lie, I'm always going to assume the kid is doing something to antagonize the dog, and I'm going to tell the child to leave the dog alone, as well as remove the dog to somewhere safe.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

I would never correct a dog for growling. A growl is communication. I'd NEVER want a dog to feel that they can't communicate verbally, and feel they'd have to skip directly to biting. It's not misbehavior or violence, it's a verbal message from the dog.

It'd be like how ReaganW said, and punishing someone simply for saying that they don't like something. That's not fair.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

A growl is just communication, it's not misbehavior. I never punish for growling, and I think it makes no sense to do so. Don't shoot the messenger KWIM? If a dog is growling, there's a reason for it, and the reason is what you should be concerned about. Basil used to have bad resource guarding tendencies. I never punished him for growling, and he has never escalated to a bite. In fact, I think punishing the growl would make resource guarding WORSE, because for one, it's teaching him that warnings are wrong, and two, it damages his trust with me further, this making him more protective of his resources. So when I focused on the actual problem (Lack of trust) and dealt with it (building his trust in me and teaching him that I'm not out to steal everything tasty away from him), the growling went away. No need to punish.

One problem I have with people who try to fix behavioral problems purely through punishment, is that you may not always get the behavior you're looking for. If you punish a dog for peeing on your carpet, sure he might know exactly why you're punishing him (If he's caught in the act, that is). But instead of magically becoming potty trained, he might decide that the correct thing to do is to go pee behind the couch where you can't find it. If you punish a growling dog, sure he knows that you're punishing him for growling. But he may decide the correct behavior is to just go straight to biting. If you want your dog to behave, train and reward for more acceptable alternative behaviors, don't just punish what you don't like. If your dog growls at other dogs/people, train your dog to sit and watch your in their presence. If your dog growls to defend his food or toys or space, train your dog to trust you. If your dog growls in response to fear, train him to build his confidence. And always keep what you DO want him to do INSTEAD when trying to discourage a dog from doing what you don't like.


----------



## sugarr (Jan 21, 2011)

Ignoring the growl just gives the dog what he wanted. There are of course some cases of pretty good dogs, that would growl sometimes, the human would leave them alone and they could live happily ever after.
But there are many difficult dogs, that growl from the first months of their lives and redirecting to the good behavior, distracting or other so called 'positive' methods are just not enough... And of course I'm not saying anyone should go all Brad Pattison towards the dog!! I mean a quick, solid correction in the perfect moment.

I know one dog that was allowed to do that and until he got very old and his hips got very bad (so he's in too much pain to do most things) he was terrorizing the whole family. It got to the point when he blocked the only way to one room and growl, so whoever wanted to get to that room must have waited for the dog to change his mind.
There was only one exception in the family - the baby. Since he was able to go to the dog by himself the dog was punished for any grownling towards the kid. The kid grew and the dog never growled, never tried to attack the kid, he would rather walk away from the boy than show any agression - he knew he wolud be corrected. 
And the boy was the only exception at the same time agression towards the boy was the only one that was corrected...


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

sugarr said:


> Ignoring the growl just gives the dog what he wanted. There are of course some cases of pretty good dogs, that would growl sometimes, the human would leave them alone and they could live happily ever after.
> But there are many difficult dogs, that growl from the first months of their lives and redirecting to the good behavior, distracting or other so called 'positive' methods are just not enough... And of course I'm not saying anyone should go all Brad Pattison towards the dog!! I mean a quick, solid correction in the perfect moment.
> 
> I know one dog that was allowed to do that and until he got very old and his hips got very bad (so he's in too much pain to do most things) he was terrorizing the whole family. It got to the point when he blocked the only way to one room and growl, so whoever wanted to get to that room must have waited for the dog to change his mind.
> ...


Just because you ignore a growl and don't punish growling doesn't mean you let your dog walk all over you. Obviously the family in question never did the OTHER stuff we suggested instead of punishing his growling. Such as figuring out the cause of the growling and training for an alternative behavior. 

As I said, Basil used to have bad resource guarding tendencies when I adopted him. Now I can take food away from him with no growling. He doesn't "get whatever he wants." If that were the case, his life could be at risk because he's stolen cooked chicken bones on multiple occasions, and I NEED to get that away from him. But I never punished him. I TRAINED him. Big difference.


----------



## sugarr (Jan 21, 2011)

Sorry fot the post under post, but somehow I can't edit.


I wanted to add, that I'm definitely not working with dogs thru punishments - actually with my current dog I don't have to use any corrections. The discussion is just theoretical.
BTW corrections go with rewarding I don't see why they have to be concidered two different methods


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

There's a difference between a dog growling to get something to stop, and a dog terrorizing an entire household. In the latter case, a "quick, solid correction in the perfect moment" is a very good way to get yourself bit. "Knock it off. What? Physical pain? SCREW YOU! *chomp*" Particularly if the dog is a very confident dog who has figured out he can control things by throwing his weight around. With a softer dog, that might work to take the fight out of him, but depending on how soft the dog it it can also create a slinking, head shy dog. And in some dogs it can actually make things worse, because now the dog has increased anxiety over something it was already worried about. There's a reason even people that train with corrections rarely advise corrections over the internet to a dog they haven't seen.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

sugarr said:


> other so called 'positive' methods are just not enough... And of course I'm not saying anyone should go all Brad Pattison towards the dog!! I mean a quick, solid correction in the perfect moment.


If by a "solid correction" you mean something like a leash pop...that is a so called "positive" method. Positive punishment to be specific - assuming it affects the behavior in the future.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sugarr said:


> Ignoring the growl just gives the dog what he wanted.


No one is saying *ignore* the growl.

Intervene in the situation, but *don't punish the dog* for alerting you that he isn't comfortable/doesn't like something.




sugarr said:


> But there are many difficult dogs, that growl from the first months of their lives and redirecting to the good behavior, distracting or other so called 'positive' methods are just not enough...


Because, like CP said, positive methods are using operant conditioning. Growling is often an emotional repsonse (I don't like <whatever>), not a rational choice (I'm going to choose to growl at this). Correcting the first would require classical conditioning (changing I don't like to I like)

It would be like me correcting Wally for being scared just because I don't like the behavior. It won't work. I'm using a rationally oriented method to an irrational behavior and the two will not connect. Emotions and the behavior derived from them are not rational choices and as such are not in the realm of operant conditioning.




sugarr said:


> I know one dog that was allowed to do that and until he got very old and his hips got very bad (so he's in too much pain to do most things) he was terrorizing the whole family. It got to the point when he blocked the only way to one room and growl, so whoever wanted to get to that room must have waited for the dog to change his mind.


Correcting that situation would still not include punishing the act of growling. It would be determining why he's growling and fixing *that* (cure the problem, don't just cover the symptoms).

If he's blocking a room, that sounds more like resource guarding and you don't solve that by correcting the warning.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

sugarr said:


> Sorry fot the post under post, but somehow I can't edit.
> 
> 
> I wanted to add, that I'm definitely not working with dogs thru punishments - actually with my current dog I don't have to use any corrections. The discussion is just theoretical.
> BTW corrections go with rewarding I don't see why they have to be concidered two different methods


To be clear, I'm assuming you mean corrections such as a firm "No" or a leash pop, correct? 

When you ask "Do you correct growling," it's kind of a loaded question. A simple "yes" or a "no" doesn't describe the whole situation. If a dog is growling, correcting the growl isn't even half of the approach you should be taking. One should be taking into account the actual REASON for the growling. Correcting the growl without even considering the cause is just a bandaid solution, and will bite you on the butt in the end (pun intended, lol). 

And just because someone says they don't punish a growl doesn't mean they're only limited to one other training method (whatever that might be), or aren't training at all. Ignoring a growl doesn't mean they're ignoring the WHOLE situation and doing nothing. There are multiple approaches you can take when dealing with this kind of behavior, depending on the cause for the growl.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Ignoring the growl just gives the dog what he wanted.


No it doesn't. Strauss growled at me and he still had to have his nails finished. He didn't growl and then I decided "Oh, you're uncomfortable! You're done!"


----------



## sugarr (Jan 21, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> There's a difference between a dog growling to get something to stop, and a dog terrorizing an entire household. In the latter case, a "quick, solid correction in the perfect moment" is a very good way to get yourself bit. "Knock it off. What? Physical pain? SCREW YOU! *chomp*" Particularly if the dog is a very confident dog who has figured out he can control things by throwing his weight around. With a softer dog, that might work to take the fight out of him, but depending on how soft the dog it it can also create a slinking, head shy dog. And in some dogs it can actually make things worse, because now the dog has increased anxiety over something it was already worried about. There's a reason even people that train with corrections rarely advise corrections over the internet to a dog they haven't seen.


I'm talking about simply agressive dogs - not fear based agression or agression from pain etc. 
There is something like a dog who is just a a tuff case, agressive, terrorizing the family. 
And in those cases redirecting agression to the owner after the correction is not surprising at all... That's in the process - showing the dog that you are stronger. It may sound pretty primal but that's how it is. 


And in fact letting a dog growl once will make him growl again. It's that simple... We all know how dogs learn: I sit - I get a treat, so then I'll always sit and even lay down so you would give me a treat. I jump on my owner - he stops playing with me, so next time I won't jump because I want to play. I growl - they leave me alone.. So I'll growl next time.


----------



## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

I have a 23 month old Saint that has growled at my 12 year old daughter. The situation is always the same (it's happened 4 times), she reaches for his collar to move him from a comfy spot he's chosen for a nap. Buster has never been corrected for growling, all he's doing is letting us know he doesnt like something. That, however, does not mean that we've chosen to allow him to rule the house. We've opted to retrain BOTH the child and the puppy. We're reinforcing his "off" command (with all 4 girls involved in the training), involving all 4 girls more in his daily care, leaving the collar off when the girls are home (they cant grab what he's not wearing) all while reteaching the girls appropriate ways to handle Buster (if in doubt, grab treats!).

What we havent done is correct Buster for communicating with us or lock him away. He's still very involved in everyday family life, the same as he has been since he was 9 1/2 weeks old. Shaylyn understands that the growl was not Buster being mean, but "talking" to her. If anything, this has strengthened their bond.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

sugarr said:


> We all know how dogs learn: I sit - I get a treat, so then I'll always sit and even lay down so you would give me a treat.


What you've described is operant conditioning. Growling is effected by classical conditioning. So your statement about growling again is not valid based on your example.

http://www.dogmanners.com/conditioning.html


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

sugarr said:


> I'm talking about simply agressive dogs - not fear based agression or agression from pain etc.
> There is something like a dog who is just a a tuff case, agressive, terrorizing the family.
> And in those cases redirecting agression to the owner after the correction is not surprising at all... That's in the process - showing the dog that you are stronger. It may sound pretty primal but that's how it is.
> 
> ...


There's no such thing as a dog who's just plain mean and is aggressive for the heck of it. There's ALWAYS a reason for aggression, even if it isn't fear or pain based. Basil's resource guarding wasn't fear or pain based, but I didn't need to meet him with more force or show him I'm stronger than he is. I don't understand how trying to show your dog's that you're strongest would actually work, because in many cases, the dog's KNOW they're stronger. If they feel they have to, dogs will prove that they have the upper hand in terms of physical force by biting off your hand and sending you to the ER. What you need to do is show your dogs you're SMARTER by using your brain and figuring out the cause of their aggression, and then figuring out the best method of dealing with the problem behavior. 

When force is always met with more force, you will quickly find yourself at a stalemate.


----------



## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

We have this a lot with our rescues, and we do correct when it's directed at a person or another dog, but it's more than just telling the dog off...it's telling the dog "no" and then showing them the proper way of handling the situation...it goes hand in hand. I wouldn't just keep yelling at the dog and expect them to understand why they are getting yelled at.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

sugarr said:


> I'm talking about simply agressive dogs - not fear based agression or agression from pain etc.
> There is something like a dog who is just a a tuff case, agressive, terrorizing the family.
> *And in those cases redirecting agression to the owner after the correction is not surprising at all... That's in the process - showing the dog that you are stronger. It may sound pretty primal but that's how it is.*


Any training program where getting bit is "in the process" is stupid and unnecessary. Getting bit shows a dog VERY quick that humans are fleshy and taste good with ketchup.

Confident, pushy dogs are good candidates for clicker training. The dog wants things and is given a way of getting things he wants that is safe for everyone.


----------



## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

I've got a dog who i trained when i was young and stupid. I would give him a sharp no and slight leash pop and look where that got me. 
A perfectly obedient dog that can't live in a family home anymore because he never ever growls and goes straight for the bite because of my ignorance.

We are working to undo that but when you have conditioned a dog to forgo natural behaviors its a hard long road to turn back.

I never ever ever ever will punish a growl again and i think its pretty ignorant to do it. 
I find the route of the growl and work on why my dog has an issue with that stimuli.

I hope to god that none of you end up with a dog that will be ruined by your doing because its a horrible experience.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> And in those cases redirecting agression to the owner after the correction is not surprising at all...


That's because IMO the dog is genetically too handler hard, and if it's a breeding animal, that really need to be considered. There are people out there that actually LIKE that kind of dog, and I would return that dog to the breeder so fast the Earth would spin in reverse.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Xeph said:


> I would return that dog to the breeder so fast the Earth would spin in reverse.


Whoa! I think we need to start a Truths about Xeph thread. Are you able to unscramble scrambled eggs?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yes...yes I am. Because I'm really Chuck Norris in disguise.


----------



## beverley (Oct 7, 2010)

branston always growls when he plays. he has never ever growled in any other situation, he growls when playing by himself with his toys and you can take it straight off him and he will willingly let you have the toy. he will also growl when jumping around excitedly wanting us to play with him. i have never corrected him for this as i see this as what he does when he plays so now im thinking should i correct him? is he wrong for growling?


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

beverley said:


> branston always growls when he plays. he has never ever growled in any other situation, he growls when playing by himself with his toys and you can take it straight off him and he will willingly let you have the toy. he will also growl when jumping around excitedly wanting us to play with him. i have never corrected him for this as i see this as what he does when he plays so now im thinking should i correct him? is he wrong for growling?


No! Please don't correct your dog for this. This is play behavior. Growling in play is _very_ common and no cause for alarm at all. It's the equivalent of kids making fake gun noises.


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> No! Please don't correct your dog for this. This is play behavior. Growling in play is _very_ common and no cause for alarm at all. It's the equivalent of kids making fake gun noises.


Lol, that's a great description of it! Nea does this all the time too when playing, she's very verbal.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

It wouldn't be a schnauzer if it didn't GROWL.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

The OP asked a very broad question about what we would do with *our own dogs*. There are many types of growling, just as there are many types of barking. It's the same with us humans. 

So, now, after hearing lots of people talk about not punishing the growl, the OP starts to give lots of *other* examples, extreme examples of families that, perhaps have issues must more serious than growling. 
Perhaps the families didn't investigate why the dogs were growling. Perhaps the growling continued to occur in the same situation each time, which would imply that there was actually a behavior problem behind the growling.

Whatever, it just seems like we've gone from a simple question on our own dogs' growling, to extreme cases.

IMO, a growl from my dogs mean I should pay attention. NOT that I should let them have their way, but that I should see what is up. Are they hurt? Was someone/some dog bothering them? Did something scare them? Were they having a dream?

Growling is their way of saying they need me to check something out for them. If one of my dogs started to stand in a doorway and growl, and that became a regular behavior, I wouldn't consider that a growl in isolation anymore, I'd consider it a behavioral issue that needed action, in my case, training, not punishing.

It should be pretty easy, if we're talking about our own dogs, for us to determine if it's a growl, or a behavior problem.....


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> No! Please don't correct your dog for this. This is play behavior. Growling in play is _very_ common and no cause for alarm at all. It's the equivalent of kids making fake gun noises.


Hahahaha that's awesome!

I always call it "trash talking". Wally was doing some of that this afternoon. 

Growling, groaning, gruffing, it's so funny and he's having the time of his life.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

I pretty much handled it (with my own dogs) like Xeph and Northern-Inuit mentioned. I "check" it. I acknowledge the fact they're unhappy, but I don't automatically think "oh my poor baby is UNHAPPY..." and cease what I'm doing.

With dogs that aren't mine, there are so many variables that I can't even begin to think of a way to describe it. So I'll just sit back and wait to read the "Truths about Xeph" thread, and see if there will be a battle between she and WVasko 



KBLover said:


> Hahahaha that's awesome!
> 
> I always call it "trash talking". Wally was doing some of that this afternoon.
> 
> Growling, groaning, gruffing, it's so funny and he's having the time of his life.


I call it "talkin' smack".


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I pretty much handled it (with my own dogs) like Xeph and Northern-Inuit mentioned. I "check" it. I acknowledge the fact they're unhappy, but I don't automatically think "oh my poor baby is UNHAPPY..." and cease what I'm doing.
> 
> With dogs that aren't mine, there are so many variables that I can't even begin to think of a way to describe it. So I'll just sit back and wait to read the "Truths about Xeph" thread, and see if there will be a battle between she and WVasko
> 
> ...


Hey, I've stayed out of this growling thing, at my house I'm the only one that does any growling. After I ask permission from my wife of course.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I loath to enter this... Wvasko it is your fault!!!!!

But.....

I would like to hear opinions on this....

You reach down for.... your dogs food bowl, toy, your shoe it just brought out of the bedroom, etc. 

As you reach the dog growls at you? Ignore it? Back off? Address it?


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Hey, I've stayed out of this growling thing, at my house I'm the only one that does any growling. After I ask permission from my wife of course.


That's good, you don't want her to punish you for it. (Well, unless you do....)

Growls during play are like kids screaming and running around the playground.
Growls at a stranger that is sketchy or appears dangerous are rewarded with an attaboy.
Growls that are random (i.e. while Chester is just laying on the couch for example) make me stop, listen and look outside for security reasons.
Growls related to unhappiness with something I am doing get reviewed for WHY, then redirection as needed (like, if I was trimming his nails, was I hurting his foot or was he just annoyed?). I think I could count these kind of growls on one hand. I pay attention to his needs, use lots of positive reinforcement for behaviors I DO want and I have a naturally tolerant dog.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I loath to enter this... Wvasko it is your fault!!!!!
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...


Hey, don't blame me. I was minding my own business and LR713 got me in, I think everybody should handle their growling dogs as they see fit. What works for me may not work for them cause they are viewing/listening to the growling and I may see/hear something totally different than they do.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Hey, don't blame me. I was minding my own business and LR713 got me in, I think everybody should handle their growling dogs as they see fit. What works for me may not work for them cause they are viewing/listening to the growling and I may see/hear something totally different than they do.


I could really care less about the growl..... But I will address the behavior that may be associated with the growl....


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I loath to enter this... Wvasko it is your fault!!!!!
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...


I'd address MY dog. (Kennel dogs? I put the food down and leave, and if I'm supervising two dogs in the same room wolfing down 2 separate bowls of food, I wait outside. This is a kennel stay, not a training camp, kwim?) 
Dude was the WORST RG'er I've ever seen, he did the whale eye, full set of teeth, and actually would come off the floor at you. Punishment and punishment alone suppressed it...until the next time around. Ignoring it wouldn't have worked I imagine, backing off would have more than likely reinforced it. Counter conditioning his response when a person walked near him produced a dog who does not RG anymore, and also learned "drop it" like it was a dumb party trick. (Best part is, I haven't lived the past 9 years "bribing" him with food!) As dumb as the dog can act, Auz has never shown any food or RGing with me, ever. I imagine Tag has the genetic make-up be a horrible food guarder; the most he's ever done is bowl-punch as I approached. This, thankfully, has been curbed.



wvasko said:


> Hey, don't blame me. I was minding my own business and LR713 got me in, I think everybody should handle their growling dogs as they see fit. What works for me may not work for them cause they are viewing/listening to the growling and I may see/hear something totally different than they do.


You know I will pull you into every single thread I can :rockon: :whoo:



doxiemommy said:


> The OP asked a very broad question about what we would do with *our own dogs*. There are many types of growling, just as there are many types of barking. It's the same with us humans.
> 
> So, now, after hearing lots of people talk about not punishing the growl, the OP starts to give lots of *other* examples, extreme examples of families that, perhaps have issues must more serious than growling.
> Perhaps the families didn't investigate why the dogs were growling. Perhaps the growling continued to occur in the same situation each time, which would imply that there was actually a behavior problem behind the growling.
> ...


I think this pretty much sums it up right there. If, after years of comfortably dremeling my dogs' nails, one of them delivered a clean warning snap or a bite, I'd know something was really, really wrong. 
At any rate, I think growling and biting cases, for whatever reason, are another excellent reason to instill a soft mouth in puppies or new dogs (if possible), but hey that's just me.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I loath to enter this... Wvasko it is your fault!!!!!
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...


With the dogs I have now... at that exact moment... I would ignore the food bowl (just let the dog finish eating) and do a hostage exchange (trade up) for the shoe or toy. I really don't want to get bitten to prove a point.

In the long term... for the shoe and toy I would work on a lot of "drop it-take it" and toy-trading type exercises. For the food bowl, I would practice a lot of counter-conditioning for me approaching the food bowl, dropping tasty tidbits near and in the bowl, stuff like that.


----------



## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

I do not correct my dogs for growling...I might give an "easy big boy/girl" (in a calm & rational manner) to let them know that I've heard them & know there is a problem...I then figure out what the trigger was & work on that.


----------



## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

If it's a strange dog, i will listen to the growl. If it is one of my own dogs, I will not listen because anything I am doing to cause them to growl should NOT warrant a growl, much less a bite.


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I'm a little late getting into this thread but... how about a dog who is growling at another dog in the family, eg. Corona will often growl at George when all he's doing is getting near her to sit down on the blanket in the living room. He totally respects her, but I don't want her bossing him around all the time.

What would you do in a situation like that?


----------



## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I loath to enter this... Wvasko it is your fault!!!!!
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...


Ignore it, nope. Address it? Yes. Back off, yes if there was a chance that I could get bitten at that moment. Having said that, I would rather back off for a moment instead of forcing an issue and forcing my dog to follow up with a bite, in that case I would be teach my dog that bitting does work and makes people really back off. In short it worked for them. And I never want my dogs to learn that. At the moment I maybe losing that battle but I still can win the war, by being smart and training the dog. The dog would immediately go to living the life of NILIF dog, we would also have a great time training, trades, leave its/off etc. I have lived with many Jrts over the years, typically about 5 at one time along with having rescues. With my own dogs, it isn't an issue because I have bred and raise them for the most part, therefore they have learned how to behave from the get go. But I have had many serious resourse guarding, snarling/growling/snapping rescues here and the above has always worked with them. lmao, some of them were very seasoned pro's at it


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> What would you do in a situation like that?


I tell Strauss to shut up and cut it out, and I remove Mirada and give her something else to do. Sometimes she chooses to go back and harrass him and she gets yelled at for it (by Strauss). She should. She's pushing his buttons, and even if I remove her for a small time out in her kennel, as soon as she comes out she makes a bee line for him.


----------



## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I loath to enter this... Wvasko it is your fault!!!!!
> 
> But.....
> 
> ...


I just had this happen with Eddie a few weeks ago. He growled at me on 2 different occasions within the span of a week. Both times it was over his concern that I was going to take a toy from him, which wasn't my intention. The first time, I backed off completely and left him alone. The second time, I was a little more ticked about it but backed off at first but came back a few minutes later, offered a trade for the toy in the form of a treat and the toy "disappeared". It's obviously something that we need to work on. My reasoning for backing off was not wanting to push him into a snap or a potential bite. It would be harmful to our relationship to say the least. In hindsight, I appreciated the growl and him letting me know that he didn't like what I was doing, it alerted me to an issue that needs worked on.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> As you reach the dog growls at you? Ignore it? Back off? Address it?


Be in total shock and know something is wrong because Wally has never ever even ONCE uttered a "mean" vocalization at me.

He's either in pain or something happened to him. Neither of which would require me to correct him, but correct the issue he's having.



Mdawn said:


> In hindsight, I appreciated the growl and him letting me know that he didn't like what I was doing, it alerted me to an issue that needs worked on.


Exactly, a dog's communication is never a bad thing, even if you don't like it. Take it for what it is an examine the situation.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LynnI said:


> Ignore it, nope. Address it? Yes. Back off, yes if there was a chance that I could get bitten at that moment. Having said that, I would rather back off for a moment instead of forcing an issue and forcing my dog to follow up with a bite, in that case I would be teach my dog that bitting does work and makes people really back off. In short it worked for them. And I never want my dogs to learn that. At the moment I maybe losing that battle but I still can win the war, by being smart and training the dog.


Exactly how I feel about it as well, although I didn't explain it very well. (Although so far for me, fortunately, this is an entirely hypothetical situation.) 



CoverTune said:


> I'm a little late getting into this thread but... how about a dog who is growling at another dog in the family, eg. Corona will often growl at George when all he's doing is getting near her to sit down on the blanket in the living room. He totally respects her, but I don't want her bossing him around all the time.
> 
> What would you do in a situation like that?


I don't always do anything about the dogs growling at each other. If Pip is laying in a comfy place, Maisy approaches, Pip growls, and Maisy goes away and finds a different place to lie down, and it's all done... well, that's just dog stuff, even if it seems unfair or bossy to me.

If there were problems in their interactions beyond the growling... it's so hard to say what I would do, because it would depend on the circumstances.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

It depends on what my dog is growling at, if its recource guarding I.e. good aggression then I will address it but not nessessarily correct it. Example- if any of my dogs guarded their food I would stand next to them calmly until they stopped, I have had very good success with this simple method.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CoverTune said:


> I'm a little late getting into this thread but... how about a dog who is growling at another dog in the family, eg. Corona will often growl at George when all he's doing is getting near her to sit down on the blanket in the living room. He totally respects her, but I don't want her bossing him around all the time.
> 
> What would you do in a situation like that?


Crystal will growl at Casper occasionally, usually when he's trying to take the bone/antler she's chewing. She'll lunge and do a quick growl/snap in his direction (never actually bites). I don't worry about this because he completely respects her and backs off, and both dogs are fine. They play together and get along great, and neither shows any resource guarding tendencies with humans or my cats (or with each other over anything but their most high-value chew items). Like sassafras, I think of it as "dog stuff" and, since it's not affecting their relationship or escalating, I leave it alone. If they started actually fighting over an item, that item would disappear.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

CoverTune said:


> I'm a little late getting into this thread but... how about a dog who is growling at another dog in the family, eg. Corona will often growl at George when all he's doing is getting near her to sit down on the blanket in the living room. He totally respects her, but I don't want her bossing him around all the time.
> 
> What would you do in a situation like that?


The amount of talking smack that goes on in this house is insane. Auz has the largest vocabulary of anything with 4 legs. Unless things get heated I ignore it; if I'm tired of listening to the noise I tell all parties to knock it off. Dude will growl at Tag for breathing some of his precious oxygen molecules. We all pretty much tune it out.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CoverTune said:


> I'm a little late getting into this thread but... how about a dog who is growling at another dog in the family, eg. Corona will often growl at George when all he's doing is getting near her to sit down on the blanket in the living room. He totally respects her, but I don't want her bossing him around all the time.
> 
> What would you do in a situation like that?


I don't expect my dog to get along 100% of the time. Mia in particular is the one to start and finish things but all of it thus far is just 'dog stuff' (I like that term). Most issues thus far they can resolve on their own. Just now Mia was lying on a blanket and Sumemr came and stepped on her. Mia got mad and snapped at her and Summer moved away to another area. No big deal to me. I've only ever had a couple fights (not with my current dogs) that I felt the need to step in on because they were escalating.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> The amount of talking smack that goes on in this house is insane. Auz has the largest vocabulary of anything with 4 legs. Unless things get heated I ignore it; if I'm tired of listening to the noise I tell all parties to knock it off. Dude will growl at Tag for breathing some of his precious oxygen molecules. We all pretty much tune it out.


Mia smack talks me. She has never ever bitten or anything like that but she will sass me if she's not wanting to do something. I had a past dog (sheltie) like this too and we'd just sass each other all the time. I'd tell her to go outside to potty and she would, but she would grumble and curse at me the entire time. Mia seems to be a reincarnation of her.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

CoverTune said:


> I'm a little late getting into this thread but... how about a dog who is growling at another dog in the family, eg. Corona will often growl at George when all he's doing is getting near her to sit down on the blanket in the living room. He totally respects her, but I don't want her bossing him around all the time.
> 
> What would you do in a situation like that?


Most of the time growling from one dog to another is just communication. It's like they're saying "Hey, give me some space." I wouldn't worry about her bossing him around if they both respect each other and cooperate peacefully. If it gets to the point of constant squabbling and fighting, I would control their interaction with each other and train them to tolerate each other's presence. But that's more than just a growl at that point.


----------



## Conard10 (Sep 25, 2010)

I've read through all the posts and I guess I'm a bit surprised that most are ok with their dogs growling at them. I know there are many times it's fine for a dog to growl (during play, seeing a sketchy person walking past your house, etc.).

But, let's just take a couple examples. Your dog has a treat or a toy and growls at you when you try to take it away. You're ok with that? Shouldn't your dog respect that you can take away high value items? 

Let's say your dog is laying on your bed and you reach for her collar to remove her from the bed? 

Luckily, we've never had an issue with growling so I don't have any "first-hand" experience. But, I don't think I would be ok with my dog growling at me in the above circumstances. I'm not saying that I want to eliminate a warning, but I would want my dog to know that it's not ok to protect items and that I should be able to remove her from the bed.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think anybody is "OK with" their dog growling at them. The problem should be fixed. However, correcting the dog at the time of growling is counterproductive. If you find out your dog has an issue with resource guarding, you need to work with your dog to correct that. . .but popping the dog for growling at you isn't going to fix anything and will probably make things worse.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Conard10 said:


> I've read through all the posts and I guess I'm a bit surprised that most are ok with their dogs growling at them. I know there are many times it's fine for a dog to growl (during play, seeing a sketchy person walking past your house, etc.).


Um...if people were okay with their dogs growling at them, why would they say to fix the issue that's causing the growling? 

Obviously, they don't want their dogs to growl, or they'd just leave things alone.

What people aren't okay with is the dog growling because he doesn't like something and you punishing him for it. Punishing the growl isn't solving what's causing the growl. THAT is what people are suggesting.




Conard10 said:


> But, let's just take a couple examples. Your dog has a treat or a toy and growls at you when you try to take it away. You're ok with that? Shouldn't your dog respect that you can take away high value items?


Yes, and fixing that is not by correcting the growling. That's resource guarding and *that issue* should be addressed. The growling is just a symptom of the problem.




Conard10 said:


> Let's say your dog is laying on your bed and you reach for her collar to remove her from the bed?


For one - teach an "off" or "get down" so you don't have to physically move the dog. Second fixing that isn't done by correcting the growling either.



Conard10 said:


> I'm not saying that I want to eliminate a warning, but I would want my dog to know that it's not ok to protect items and that I should be able to remove her from the bed.


And correcting the act of growling will teach her that...how?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*sings passionately*
Listen to you dog, when he's growling at you! Listen to your dog! It's the best thing to do!
If you don't know why he's growling, than find out whyyyy! Listen to your dog, before you get a biiiiiite!

Seriously though, know why your dog is growling and correct THAT, not his warning.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Conard10 said:


> I've read through all the posts and I guess I'm a bit surprised that most are ok with their dogs growling at them. I know there are many times it's fine for a dog to growl (during play, seeing a sketchy person walking past your house, etc.).
> 
> But, let's just take a couple examples. Your dog has a treat or a toy and growls at you when you try to take it away. You're ok with that? Shouldn't your dog respect that you can take away high value items?
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how you got "You're all okay with letting your dogs do whatever they want?" from "Punishing the growl won't work, you need to find out why the dog is growling and address that behavior with training." 

Punishing the growl is like eating rotten meat every day and then drinking Pepto Bismo for your stomach ache, then wondering why you keep feeling sick all the time. You're never going to solve the root of the problem if you just keep covering up the symptoms. In fact, dealing with it this way could land you in the hospital!

ETA: I wonder if the people who say "I'll always correct my dog for growling " have ever dealt with a bad case of resource guarding or something similar? I wonder how quickly they'd realize that what they're doing doesn't work, lol!


----------



## Conard10 (Sep 25, 2010)

Umm....apparently I misinterpreted many of the posts. And I didn't mean for my post to sound like "how could you possibly be ok with growling".

I tried using a couple examples that (to me) should not warrant a growl. Meaning, I understand trimming nails might solicit a growl if your dog had a lot of anxiety around that activity or may have even been hurt. 

I was just trying to better understand using a couple of examples that came to my mind. 

By the way, I never said you should punish a dog for growling. I was just trying to get a better understanding using a couple specific examples. 

I've taught my dog to "drop it", "leave it", "off" but if I needed to get something away from her (treat, something she shouldn't have) I can certainly walk right up and grab it without resistance.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Meaning, I understand trimming nails might solicit a growl if your dog had a lot of anxiety around that activity or may have even been hurt.


Strauss got quicked ONCE as a youngster, and has never let me forget it. He spends the entirety of his nail trims in avoidance (he'll keep his head turned away the whole time). Mirada on the other hand, got quicked twice in a row the last time I clipped her nails, and she gave me no indication that she even noticed. It wasn't until I saw blood that I knew I'd gotten her.

She will still get excited when I bring out the dremel. Hops up on the couch, flops in my lap, and offers her feet. She's the last dog I'd expect to growl at me when getting her nails done, and if she ever did, I would IMMEDIATELY assume something was hurting her. With Strauss it's *shrug* "Shut up and deal, it's almost over."


----------



## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

Nargle said:


> Most of the time growling from one dog to another is just communication. It's like they're saying "Hey, give me some space." I wouldn't worry about her bossing him around if they both respect each other and cooperate peacefully. If it gets to the point of constant squabbling and fighting, I would control their interaction with each other and train them to tolerate each other's presence. But that's more than just a growl at that point.


No squabbling, George is very respectful.. I just feel bad for the guy.


----------



## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

I hate to say this, but I don't think that all of Eddie and Uallis's fights have been for naught. They haven't fought with each other very many times and I don't think they have for about 2 years. But I think that the fights taught Eddie some lessons that he needed to know. lol When I found him, he didn't know how to communicate with other dogs. He'd just push and push at them with annoying behavior. Since he's gone a few rounds with Uallis in the past, he's learned to respect their warning behavior and he's learned when he needs to back off. He's learned, basically, how to communicate with other dogs. He still might not be the best at it, but he's learned the basics. Uallis is also very tolerant of Eddie as well and puts up with a lot. lol

I *do wish* that he learned another way other than Uallis throwing him all over the yard to get his point across, but in hindsight I don't think *all* the fights have been for a bad reason. 
*
I certainly don't LET them fight or anything like that and I do try to prevent fights and interrupt them before it escalates. I don't want people think that I encourage Uallis to show Eddie "who the boss is" or encourage Uallis to smack Eddie around. lol And I don't want people to think that I advocate letting their dogs fight with each other to teach the other dog a lesson. I don't. *


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I know EXACTLY what you mean, MDawn. You don't sit around and watch your dogs hurt each other, but sometimes there are lessons that only interactions with other dogs can teach.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

sugarr said:


> Ignoring the growl just gives the dog what he wanted. There are of course some cases of pretty good dogs, that would growl sometimes, the human would leave them alone and they could live happily ever after.
> But there are many difficult dogs, that growl from the first months of their lives and redirecting to the good behavior, distracting or other so called 'positive' methods are just not enough... And of course I'm not saying anyone should go all Brad Pattison towards the dog!! I mean a quick, solid correction in the perfect moment.
> 
> Id...


Well gawdforbid a dog should ever get what they want. How about, instead of punishing the dog for growling or being okay with the growling to continue to happen over the years in reaction to an event, we change the meaning of the event for the dog. So that, maybe instead of a person approaching being a scary or unpleasant thing, a person approaching becomes a predictor of something the dog really likes?


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Conard10 said:


> I've read through all the posts and I guess I'm a bit surprised that most are ok with their dogs growling at them. I know there are many times it's fine for a dog to growl (during play, seeing a sketchy person walking past your house, etc.).
> 
> But, let's just take a couple examples. Your dog has a treat or a toy and growls at you when you try to take it away. You're ok with that? Shouldn't your dog respect that you can take away high value items?


Firstly, I'm NOT okay with the fact my dog is growling, not because it is a disrespectful thing (as it seems the "he growled at me" people are thinking) but because it means something is not right with her. Dogs don't growl for no reason. Since she doesn't have a full vocabulary of words to explain to me why she is verbalizing her displeasure, it is up to me as her human to figure it out. I am not a permissive owner and all the dogs I work with have rules, but they are rules that understand their innate behaviours and their RIGHT to express themselves appropriately.

Secondly, dogs resource guard valuable (to them) items as a normal dog behaviour, in dog world, possession is 9/10ths of the law. In taking something from a dog without warning or without a decent trade or training in "give" is to disrespect him and his nature. Resource guarding with humans is unacceptable because it is unsafe behaviour so it must be modified to make it safe to live in our society, but it doesn't happen because he disrespects you, it's because he's worried about losing something in his instinctive mind.



> Let's say your dog is laying on your bed and you reach for her collar to remove her from the bed?


Dogs find collar grabs intimidating and this is one of the most common ways to get bitten. This is why in puppy class we TEACH how to condition a puppy to collar grabs for emergencies so that they won't feel the need to bite. If you want your dog off your bed you TEACH THE DOG how to do it on cue. 



> Luckily, we've never had an issue with growling so I don't have any "first-hand" experience. But, I don't think I would be ok with my dog growling at me in the above circumstances. I'm not saying that I want to eliminate a warning, but I would want my dog to know that it's not ok to protect items and that I should be able to remove her from the bed.


Yes, you are lucky. Until you have dealt with a 40 lb bassett mix that guarded his entire apartment from his owners, violently biting the man (ie the one who PUNISHED him) several times, sending him to the emerg you have no idea what true RG can look like. This man did everything wrong (not on purpose, but based on his opinion that the dog shouldn't be allowed to 'win') and created a full on biting, freaked out scary dog. He is still like this, wouldn't follow the plan, even after I had the dog off the furniture and laying on his mat using R+ without anything other than a cue...because he still needed to WIN.

So, he's frightened of his dog, his wife is ready to euthanize and he still won't go with the program. Punishing doesn't work. Simple as that.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have never had a dog that I can't do anything to or take anything from because I (bear with me) establish myself as leader & yes I do believe dogs have a leader because in all of Josie's & Izze's interactions Izze is clesrly supirior too Josie. So... if dogs can be superior to other dogs why can't a human be superior to dogs?


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

The first few weeks we had Lela she never made any noises except for whining. She would whine at everything. After she got comfortable and has really settled in and accepted this as home, she started to open up her verbal shell some. The first time she growled was during a game of tug of war. Intially I got a bit nervous and stopped playing and put the toy away on the book shelf. She whined and would jump on her hand legs and stand there like that sniffing and crying for the rope so we could play. After several weeks of tug of war and teaching drop and trade the only time she would start to growl is when we just got to over excited and she had no other way to express her excitment then verbally. It has never been an aggressive growl and in my personal opinion is more of a grunting rolling snort .

Shortly after we got used to the seldom grunting growl during tug of war playing she started a new found form of vocal communication. Barking. When her and the kid are running around they play hide and seek a lot my daughter will make her stay in one spot and run and hide and then I tell her to go find her. This game my daughter plays has actually help me build a really awesome solid stay. But after about 20 minutes of running in the house and getting to hyper and the kid starts laughing to loud lela will bark and twist around in a circle jump in the air and assume the love my belly position. Likewise if I am really not paying attention to her whines and standing up to the book shelf for a walk, she will stand by the door and give me one good bark and then lay down. 

The only issue for growling we have had is if something out of the norm seems to be an issue or threat to me or the home. She dosen't have a growl reaction to any person unless she can't see them. We have a tendancy to get really foggy mornings and evenings here and sometimes a neighbor will be outside in the fog and she generally will growl until she can see what it is, then she just goes back to her usual "omg another hooman let me love it" Another thing she growls out that I unfortuantly have no control over and since there is nothing there I can't correct it. When we go to our walk in the evening by the ceteray she growls pointlessly at NOTHING. I mean nothing I have brought flash lights and I have tried walking her right to the area she is growling and she just backs up behind me and still growls at whatever. I think alot of it has to do with all the creepy lights on the grave stones and the shadows it casts or maybe she does see something I don't . I have noticed a pattern of intensity in her growling depending how long we are out there or where we go so I just work around her growls and take her to the place that seems the least intimidating for her at night. 

All in all Lela has never once really cause a concern for her growls. Every growl or grumble has always had a pretty reasonable explination behind it. She has never growled at any of us out of fear, aggrivation, or resource gaurding. The closest she has come to actually growl AT me was when I was walking upstairs to tuck in my daughter I had one of those sweat pants that kinda make an annoying swish sound when you walk. She heard that swish sound and barked and growled when I finally got upstairs she was standing in front of my daughter facing the door just waiting to go after that threatening swoosh sound. When she saw it was me she almost seemed disappointed lol she just kinda sighed and plopped down on the bed lol. 

I think her funniest "growl" story ironically happened today. We were walking the cemetery path this morning and she started to growl down the path and got into the "stalking" pose. She started to crouch and flattened out her head and body and tail to a straight line. I was for sure I knew what it was, there is a hill with a small water tower on it and some people come and clean up the grave yard and just leave alot of crap in this big pile so they can burn it in the summer. There was this shiny spinning thing in the pile , I was sure she saw this and was just interested in the shiny thing. As we walked closer she all of a sudden freaked she got behind me whining and growling and it dawned on me finally she was terrified of the 5 ft concrete Jesus statue near one of the stones lol. I was like wow your growling at Jesus! I guess I need to take her to church more often  But I let her take her time to sniff it and see it was not a threat and after two minutes she got bored. 

So my views on growling. I think it is needed for them to express their feelings and emotions. If the dog couldn't growl it couldn't let you know when he is alerted, scared, or aggrivated. As long as growling isn't something of resource guarding issue or other aggressive issue I don't see the need to really try to correct it.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> I have never had a dog that I can't do anything to or take anything from because I (bear with me) establish myself as leader & yes I do believe dogs have a leader because in all of Josie's & Izze's interactions Izze is clesrly supirior too Josie. So... if dogs can be superior to other dogs why can't a human be superior to dogs?


Because it doesn't actually _help_ anything. I do believe that dogs have a social structure, but between dogs it's very often based on *avoiding* conflict. Being the leader doesn't improve a weave pole performance, doesn't get flashy heads-up heeling (because respectful dogs _avoid_ eye contact), doesn't get a more focused SAR track (where, if anything, the dog is the leader). Who the leader is has nothing do with learned behaviors, and polite dogs aren't necessarily the best companions for human households. It's just irrelevant. I have enough things I want to teach my dog, why would I bother wasting my time with something that has no bearing on how my dog performs?


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Conard10 said:


> I Your dog has a treat or a toy and growls at you when you try to take it away. You're ok with that? Shouldn't your dog respect that you can take away high value items?


why would i try to take it away when i can ask for it politely?



> Let's say your dog is laying on your bed and you reach for her collar to remove her from the bed?


why would i reach for her collar to do something as trivial as getting her off of the bed when i can politely ask her to get down?


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> Because it doesn't actually _help_ anything. I do believe that dogs have a social structure, but between dogs it's very often based on *avoiding* conflict. Being the leader doesn't improve a weave pole performance, doesn't get flashy heads-up heeling (because respectful dogs _avoid_ eye contact), doesn't get a more focused SAR track (where, if anything, the dog is the leader). Who the leader is has nothing do with learned behaviors, and polite dogs aren't necessarily the best companions for human households. It's just irrelevant. I have enough things I want to teach my dog, why would I bother wasting my time with something that has no bearing on how my dog performs?


I've never quite understood why I should want to act like an animal who wants the exact opposite of what I want (slow arching approach, averted gaze, respect of personal space vs. fast, direct recalls, sustained eye contact, working well inside my personal space, etc.) Dogs ask different things of dogs than I do, and my dogs are smart enough to know that I am not a dog. If I were a dog, I'd be a damned poor one - as would all humans. And it's not the dogs who have leadership skills who need to try to push home the point.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I know EXACTLY what you mean, MDawn. You don't sit around and watch your dogs hurt each other, but sometimes there are lessons that only interactions with other dogs can teach.


Here here, MDawn. Magpie is rude. She drops toys on the other dogs heads and rolls around on them to get them to play. She doesn't understand how to communicate with other dogs. So, they snark at her, and after some time now she stops. Jonas does not like her so when she is too in his face he will snarl at her. She then goes the other way, no one is hurt. If she was not to heed that warning, I'd separate before it escalated, but I don't go running every time one of the dogs snarks at her. 
When DO I immediately intervene? If there is an object involved. Earlier Jonas took a bit of kibble to the carpet to play with it. Staving Smalls snuck up under the coffee table and when the kibble was close enough to her, she snarked at him and he screamed (he is a delicate flower y'know). I asked her to give (because we have extensively worked on resource guarding and food aggression) and removed the tiny piece of food because otherwise that would have resulted in a fight.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

CoverTune said:


> I'm a little late getting into this thread but... how about a dog who is growling at another dog in the family, eg. Corona will often growl at George when all he's doing is getting near her to sit down on the blanket in the living room. He totally respects her, but I don't want her bossing him around all the time.
> 
> What would you do in a situation like that?


IF the dogs were both okay with the communication, I'd probably let it stand. Dogs bossing dogs is a fact of life. I don't buy the whole "alpha" thing, but the fact is all social species are interested in status to some degree. Sometimes what doesn't look fair to us, is perfectly understandable to them. If a dog isn't respecting the communication, or the dog doing the pushing isn't respecting the communication that the other dog is respecting the communication (i.e. is bullying) I would step in. But if the dogs are both understanding and respecting their relationship, it's between them


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

> I'm a little late getting into this thread but... how about a dog who is growling at another dog in the family, eg. Corona will often growl at George when all he's doing is getting near her to sit down on the blanket in the living room. He totally respects her, but I don't want her bossing him around all the time.
> 
> What would you do in a situation like that?


depends on the context and the type of growl. growls differ. a threatening(as in just a threat and nothing more) tends to be a little different in duration, pitch and facial expression than an actual warning that the dog will take further action. and even if it is a warniing, id see how the dog being growled at responds to the growl before i made any decisions about intervening


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> I have never had a dog that I can't do anything to or take anything from because I (bear with me) establish myself as leader & yes I do believe dogs have a leader because in all of Josie's & Izze's interactions Izze is clesrly supirior too Josie. So... if dogs can be superior to other dogs why can't a human be superior to dogs?


This is just based on my opinions with no facts to lean my way or otherwise. I have noticed that the "alpha/leader" method of training has been proven to not be AS successful as other forms of positive reinforcement and building a connection rather then a dominance with your dog. All dogs need to know that you are calling the shots but there are easier and more rewarding ways to teach the dog you will lead her in the right direction than just trying to over dominate the dog. More often then not if you try to out pack lead him as though you were a dog you are going to lose. To me it just seems that the whole alpha training takes away a certain connection of understanding. 

Like the alpha dog roll. I tried this with lela, all she wanted to do was play and romp around and for the most part thought we were practicing our play dead trick. But if i say who wants a belly rub, she cant roll over on her back fast enough. I would rather spend my time getting her to open up to me willingly then spend my time trying to show her she has no choice but to trust me. Now granted I don't know much about alpha dog training and I am sure with some breeds or dogs this method is probably really helpful and has proven successful in training but it just never was my cup of joe.

With lela I admit I have been lucky to really have a good nature dog with limited emotional or stress issues, but I have never seen the need to truly dominate her be superior over her. She is always eager to please and work with me and even if she isn't listening or being "stubborn' or just not getting it, you can tell she wants to she just needs more time . The one thing that people tend to forget is alot of dogs are really very patient , most dogs that tend to be impatient are only that way because people have shown them patience and love dosen't reap any good effects. I think any dog if you take the time and effort to work with on any given issue that isn't seriously threatening to the handler can be worked with and handled without the need to "dominate" the dog, in fact that dominance more often then not in trouble dogs is the exact cause of their issue. 

So to for purposes that I am not misunderstood, I am not against alpha dog training, but I also don't feel that it is the best method for common practice training for the average dog


----------



## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I know EXACTLY what you mean, MDawn. You don't sit around and watch your dogs hurt each other, but sometimes there are lessons that only interactions with other dogs can teach.


Yes. This is it exactly. 

I think that we, as humans, have let the thought of dominance go to our heads. I don't really try to make my interactions with my dogs "Respect thy Master!" interactions. They are individuals who have ways of communicating displeasure through a growl, whine, bark, etc. I see no harm in letting them UNDERSTAND that *I* understand them. Am I the only one that sees yanking an object out of a dog's mouth as disrespectful? If I was eating a piece of chicken and someone just walked up and yanked it out of my mouth, I'd be ticked. However, if they wanted my chicken and offered me steak as a trade, I'd be pretty tempted to take the trade. That's what I typically do and what I did when Eddie growled at me. He had a toy that he mistakenly thought I wanted. I offered him a better trade and got the toy. It wasn't stressful or traumatizing to either of us.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> I have never had a dog that I can't do anything to or take anything from because I (bear with me) establish myself as leader & yes I do believe dogs have a leader because in all of Josie's & Izze's interactions Izze is clesrly supirior too Josie. So... if dogs can be superior to other dogs why can't a human be superior to dogs?


My question is why does superiority have to be involved?

As long as Wally is giving me what I want/like, I don't care if he considers me his god on earth or just a hang-out buddy. I don't care if he think he's making me do stuff or he's doing stuff because he wants to comply with me.

What I don't understand is why humans feel like they need to be superior to dogs in order to teach them, guide them, enrich them, and enjoy them.

Why does it have to be "I dominate you. You better do what I want or else you little mongrel?" Why can training not be, "If you do this, I'll get you this, and then we both get what we want." ?

Why does it always have to go back to control and one party trying to wrestle it away from the other?

What's wrong with mutual cooperation? After all, a pack is more that than one dog nipping and biting and growling at all the other dogs to get in the right spots and the right positions in a hunt, etc.



RaeganW said:


> Because it doesn't actually _help_ anything. I do believe that dogs have a social structure, but between dogs it's very often based on *avoiding* conflict.



EXACTLY.

Dogs have a whole set of communications designed to avoid conflict and have a peaceful coexistence - calming signals as we call them.

Yet, I'm supposed to CREATE a conflict just for the sake of...what? Making him throw calming signals and feel social stress so I can be like "yeah, I that's right you better lick your nose! I dominate you!"

I don't get it.


----------



## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

KBLover said:


> My question is why does superiority have to be involved?
> 
> As long as Wally is giving me what I want/like, I don't care if he considers me his god on earth or just a hang-out buddy. I don't care if he think he's making me do stuff or he's doing stuff because he wants to comply with me.
> 
> ...


YES!! :clap2: This is exactly how I feel about it.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Something to remember..... Well a few things......

Dogs, most dogs learn very quickly...... They learn something about you with each encounter. 

Backing off when a dog growls over something, teaches the dog that you will back off when it growls. The first time might be in an uncomfortable situation for the dog. But addressing the situation could easily teach the dog that it can get you to back down by growling..... 

Some dogs.... may not do anything with that information. Other dogs will take it and run with it. 

As I said growling matters little to me. And it depends on the growl and the reason.

I might even re enforce it. For example if I have a young dog and it hears a sound outside late at night and lets out a growl. I am going to encourage that. In fact I am most likely going to encourage louder communication. 

Dogs growling at each other. I try my best to stay out of it. They are communicating, I only observe to make sure things do not get to an unacceptable level. 

Other things to consider....
It is nice to think of our dogs as friends. I do it. I refer to my dogs as my buddies. But.... Just as a parent/child relationship, a employer/employee relationship, etc. It is great to be friends but at the end of the day, someone has to be in charge. 

If you are not in charge, in a high stress situation your dog is not likely to obey your commands well. The dog's life may depend on obeying you......


Another thing...... for aspiring trainers.... At least those that want to handle behavioral issues.... You almost never get called on the first growl. Most often you do not get called until the owner is un nerved or even downright scared of their dogs. They have either tried to deal with it on their own or have continually backed down and allowed things to escalate. And regardless of your training philosophies, methods, etc..... The one thing you don't have much of is time. You are usually the last step before the dog, if it lucky, gets turned into a rescue that will work the problem out. Or if unlucky gets the pink cocktail. You have to go in and establish yourself quickly and have some small success very quickly. You have to give the owner hope. You also need to be reasonable quick in making larger strides. Most dog owners don't have the staying power to work on problems for months and months. You will also find that most folks with significant behavioral issues are seriously over dogged. 
Which brings me to the last thing for now.......

All dogs are not created equal... One dog may be as different from the next as a Golf cart compared to an Indie Car....


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

sugarr said:


> Sorry fot the post under post, but somehow I can't edit.
> 
> 
> I wanted to add, that I'm definitely not working with dogs thru punishments - actually with my current dog I don't have to use any corrections. The discussion is just theoretical.
> BTW corrections go with rewarding I don't see why they have to be concidered two different methods


I have to admit, I don't really understand the term "correction". It's not a scientific term and can mean practically anything. I can "correct" my dog by gently moving a foot back into position. I can "correct" a dog with a raised eyebrow or an aht-aht. I can "correct" a dog by stringing him up. I can "correct" a dog with a 2x4 upside his head. It's really a pretty meaningless word.


----------



## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

dogdragoness said:


> So... if dogs can be superior to other dogs why can't a human be superior to dogs?


 you are a human. plain and simple. you are not a dog, you do not act like a dog or think like a dog... you are a human. you think your dog doesnt know youre not a dog?? a dog trying to be superior to other dogs creates conflict, why do you want conflict? i want a happy dog...



JohnnyBandit said:


> . But.... Just as a parent/child relationship, a employer/employee relationship, etc. It is great to be friends but at the end of the day, someone has to be in charge.
> 
> If you are not in charge, in a high stress situation your dog is not likely to obey your commands well. The dog's life may depend on obeying you......


your dog isnt going to listen just because you "put yourself in charge". your dog is going to listen because you have conditioned him to listen to you no matter where you are or what is going on (this is called generalizing) because it was a GREAT thing for your dog to do. doing what you wanted and paying attention to you got him great rewards. not making him do it because youre the leader and you said so. and YOU remaining calm in a high stress situation helps. if you stress, the dog stresses. its simple... i dont see why it needs to be a leadership thing....

if i tried to "be the leader" with my dogs, you know what would happen?? they would say "^*)& you lady! im not being treated like that!" and not listen to a word i have said.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I don't think being "in charge" is synonymous with being a Richard. I think it's synonymous with being responsible, and in dog care that's (should be) a given. It's not really a choice if we are to care for our dogs well.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't think being "in charge" is synonymous with being a Richard. I think it's synonymous with being responsible, and in dog care that's (should be) a given. It's not really a choice if we are to care for our dogs well.


What is a "Richard" please? I think dogs really are relieved to know what the rules are, and even more relieved to find out that they aren't in charge of making them. I do think if you choose to challenge your dog when he is full of anxiety and adrenaline, you are shooting yourself in the foot (and increasing your (and his) chances of failure.) I like to give my dog choices, but I drect those choices so the most successful result is what is best for both of us.


----------



## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

Were I to "kick the bucket", &, had no family members left, &, someone (stranger)had to "figure" Leif out, ...well, I would suspect that they would label him agressive, which, would be quite sad, because, his play growl is so freaking voracious - he sometimes sounds like a lunatic dog that is on-edge, &, about to eat you up! Nothing could be further from the truth though of course, he is just a silly ass, growley boy who is having the time of his life!! I ADORE his "growley voice", &, let him have it too-its delightful!!
Other hand, my Laik(girl)..well, her "hardwiring" is quite opposite from his...she is quite the serious gal, &, loves to play, however, - she HAS "her limits" on whats fun to her or not. When something just doesn't "settle right" w/her, - she is likely to offer a WTH?! growl. Not to me of course, but, to my other family members that just don't have a clue as to how actions THEY do, could be reinterperted by a dog.....someitmes, people can just be so darn confusing, that, they need to be taught "manners" FROM A DOG!! In these cases, I NEVER reprimand my dogs just due to the fact that sometimes people are idiots, & really have no "dog language" down of their own. Dogs DO "talk" & give off MANY warning indications....some people think that just BECAUSE the animal is an "INferior" creature, that they just SHOULD "mind-right"...bull-hockey I say!!
Respect is a 2 way street...I never feel the need to humiliate my 2...harmony is easy enough to abide by..I hope they save their really nasty growls for the ones deserving!! Some people just don't "mesh well" with my mini dogs...which is fine, but, when they already don't "mesh", &, then ty to be put together to work??? COME ON...NO WAYYY!! Sometimes, BIG people should have to attend a "class" or so just to make them realize how scary they can be to tiny dogs....Again, this is all based on MY experiences alone. I have tiny dogs, but...live w/GIGANTIC humans. I am tiny-small, &...guess who MY dogs look-up-to??? ME-the "little person"!!


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If you are not in charge, in a high stress situation your dog is not likely to obey your commands well. The dog's life may depend on obeying you......


Is that because the dog doesn't think you're in charge or because he doesn't know how to think rationally in a high stress situation?

If a dog were to be growling/reacting out of fear and isn't listening to your commands - how is that him not thinking you're in charge and not him being overwhelmed with fear to think straight (all he's thinking about is fighting for his life in his mind)?

When Wally went into a panic attack when I first tried shaping with him, how was that him thinking "He's in charge so I better not do anything" and him having issues that don't even begin to relate to dominance? (Namely severe lack of confidence)


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Pawzk9 said:


> What is a "Richard" please? I think dogs really are relieved to know what the rules are, and even more relieved to find out that they aren't in charge of making them. I do think if you choose to challenge your dog when he is full of anxiety and adrenaline, you are shooting yourself in the foot (and increasing your (and his) chances of failure.) I like to give my dog choices, but I drect those choices so the most successful result is what is best for both of us.


I was thinking of the nickname for Richard, but trying to say it in a more PC way. IMO, dogs, like people, have their own preferences, and some try very hard to maximize reinforcers, most are okay with equal give and take, and still others could care less. Whichever dog you have, your responsibility doesn't change. The being "in charge" thing is a moot point in responsible dog care, and redundant.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> What is a "Richard" please?


Nickname for Richard = is a word that starts with D. _______ Van ****. Fill in the blank.

Which can be used in a...less than nice way...to describe a person/their attitude.

Granted, I never heard it expressed like CP did - I had to put it together when I first read it. Leave it to CP to put a mental exercise in his post 

Edit: ROFL - the forum wouldn't even let me write it. It censored it LOL


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Is that because the dog doesn't think you're in charge or because he doesn't know how to think rationally in a high stress situation?
> 
> If a dog were to be growling/reacting out of fear and isn't listening to your commands - how is that him not thinking you're in charge and not him being overwhelmed with fear to think straight (all he's thinking about is fighting for his life in his mind)?
> 
> When Wally went into a panic attack when I first tried shaping with him, how was that him thinking "He's in charge so I better not do anything" and him having issues that don't even begin to relate to dominance? (Namely severe lack of confidence)


I think it's important to note JohnnyBandit's breed is Australian Cattle Dogs. ACDs are less likely to growl out of fear (not to say fearful/insecure ACDs don't exist, but that they are more likely to be coming from a place of confident) and more likely to "run with" the knowledge that growling gets the owner to back down. It's just the type of dog they are: "a lot." That being said, I don't think an instance of resource guarding is the moment to suddenly start being a leader...


----------



## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Backing off when a dog growls over something, teaches the dog that you will back off when it growls. The first time might be in an uncomfortable situation for the dog. But addressing the situation could easily teach the dog that it can get you to back down by growling.....
> 
> Some dogs.... may not do anything with that information. Other dogs will take it and run with it.
> 
> ...


Big difference in my opinion between backing off for a moment and regrouping if you are unprepared to deal with it at that moment and consistantly backing off. Having a knee jerk reaction to such a situation without accessing the whys and setting up a game plan (training) will often have a larger fall out.

As for dealing with clients, any trainer with experience and knowledge is prepared for those types of situations. Typically some well timed and asked questions to the owner opens up that can of worms if they haven't been honest in the first place. But bottom line is, always be prepared  especially when dealing with new dogs, rescues or client's dogs. ( and better yet, start training for it before there is a problem if possible) Not to mention that experience and deep knowledge of body language (of the dog and the owner) can often warn you of a pending situation (not always but usually


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> your dog isnt going to listen just because you "put yourself in charge". your dog is going to listen because you have conditioned him to listen to you no matter where you are or what is going on (this is called generalizing) because it was a GREAT thing for your dog to do. doing what you wanted and paying attention to you got him great rewards. not making him do it because youre the leader and you said so. and YOU remaining calm in a high stress situation helps. if you stress, the dog stresses. its simple... i dont see why it needs to be a leadership thing....
> 
> if i tried to "be the leader" with my dogs, you know what would happen?? they would say "^*)& you lady! im not being treated like that!" and not listen to a word i have said.


You don't "put yourself in charge". you either are or you are not. And being in charge does not mean being or acting like a basic training drill sgt.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Another thing...... for aspiring trainers.... At least those that want to handle behavioral issues.... You almost never get called on the first growl. Most often you do not get called until the owner is un nerved or even downright scared of their dogs. They have either tried to deal with it on their own or have continually backed down and allowed things to escalate. And regardless of your training philosophies, methods, etc..... The one thing you don't have much of is time. You are usually the last step before the dog, if it lucky, gets turned into a rescue that will work the problem out. Or if unlucky gets the pink cocktail. You have to go in and establish yourself quickly and have some small success very quickly. You have to give the owner hope. You also need to be reasonable quick in making larger strides. Most dog owners don't have the staying power to work on problems for months and months. You will also find that most folks with significant behavioral issues are seriously over dogged.
> Which brings me to the last thing for now.......
> 
> All dogs are not created equal... One dog may be as different from the next as a Golf cart compared to an Indie Car....


Above pretty much covers it all, as a trainer, a large per-centage of dogs that I see come in troubled, if they had no problems I would not be necessary. 75% of those dogs act totally different with me from the 1st day on and the problems the owner had does not even appear. 

I once had a year old Rott female dropped off that I just trained with no problems at all and when owners picked the dog up they told me at 6 months of age a behaviourist had told them to put dog to sleep. They did not say anything about that when they dropped dog off because they thought I would not accept dog. This dog never growled and was a wiggly butt type dog that loved praise/petting etc. Now the behaviourist obviously was an incompetent jerk. 

The quote below hit nail on head because I did nothing to tell this dog that I was in charge etc, did not have to, I just worked dog after a couple kennel adjustment days before training started so I could read dog. All dogs are started with an adjustment period because they are in a very new strange place.



> You don't "put yourself in charge". you either are or you are not. And being in charge does not mean being or acting like a basic training drill sgt.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I think that I am in charge.. tho on some days it is questionable. It is my perception and not necessarily the dog's during the questionable times.

Here is the deal.. and maybe this sums it up. I have two dogs. One is a 4 year old GSD Spay. In July I got a GSD puppy (female). She is coming up on 8 months old and is not spayed (and won't be for awhile). The two dogs have been fine together but recently the older dog is starting to see the younger dog as maturing competition. 

Because both dogs are in training, when Atka starts to stare at the puppy or the puppy starts to badger Atka, I give the dogs a cue. This gives them a job other than thinking about a fight and that stops it. They ARE well trained. 

I agree with Bandit's comment.. being in charge (if that is, indeed, what I am here) is not being a drill sgt. Dogs hate drill sgt.s and do not learn well in that sort of mode. I just train the dog. 

If that puts me in charge, then so be it. If it prevents the two from getting into Bitch Fight mode, then that is all I care. 

I all honesty I never thought much about who was in charge. I have a dog. I want the dog to do XYZ. The dog does XYZ wghen asked after it has been trained. If the dog chooses NOT to do XYZ then the cue is enforced by what ever means the dog needs to have it enforced by (no beating of dogs allowed!).


----------



## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You don't "put yourself in charge". you either are or you are not. And being in charge does not mean being or acting like a basic training drill sgt.


i guess everyone has their own meaning of what it is to be in charge. for me, personally, my being in charge is being confident and giving my dogs the support and confidence they need as well to be successful and happy. being able to teach them commands, but without argument but willingness. 
but when other people say they are in charge, i hear it differently. its always being "dominant and alpha"- rolling them, leash popping and yelling, staring them down to be "intimidating", etc. and to me, i dont need something like that. 

but this is like a lot of other things that everyone has their own set meaning of. so if i misunderstood your meaning, sorry. lol but after the dreaded CM came on television, ive heard so much of the being in charge stuff that i want to shoot someone.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> I think it's important to note JohnnyBandit's breed is Australian Cattle Dogs. ACDs are less likely to growl out of fear (not to say fearful/insecure ACDs don't exist, but that they are more likely to be coming from a place of confident) and more likely to "run with" the knowledge that growling gets the owner to back down. It's just the type of dog they are: "a lot." That being said, I don't think an instance of resource guarding is the moment to suddenly start being a leader...


I have acd's also & I can say that is absolutely right. They are extreme herders that are drovers not 'bringers' (like BC's & such dogs) they are very good at sensing the weakness in animals. I can even see this when Izze plays with Josie, as soon as she turns her back or gives her legs in a certain way, she will use her mouth to roll her over lol (not hurting her of course). So I have full faith that an ACD would take advantage of weakness in a person if they could, thus is why traditional methods typically work pretty well on these dogs.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I think it was Wally who asked "why do people need to dominate their dogs"?

It was a page or so ago, but it suddenly struck me...people who feel the need to "dominate" their dogs (in the extreme domination concept, not just leadership, so this is not directed at anyone in particular) MAY do it because their relationship with dogs is basically about fear. 
Yes, fear. Fear of loss of control. Fear of an uncontrollable dog. Fear of a dog that will be "deemed" bad and therefore owner/trainer is "bad" as well. Geez, we could even go all Freudian and say it is a fear of our own animal nature....

Really, dogs do what works for them. They are not all planning an uprising against the oppressive humans. No dog is looking to find a way to conflict with their human, unless they are forced into it by our own clumsy human misunderstanding of the dog's natures.

Being a leader is one thing. I am the defacto leader because I have the opposable thumbs that provide all that is rewarding to my dogs. I also have a responsibility, both towards my dog and towards society, to ensure my dog is sociable, safe etc. But some folks who talk about being a leader think it is about power and domination and fear/respect. Well, fear and respect are not the same thing..I wish people understood the difference. 

The biggest difficulty that occurs between humans and dogs is that dogs understand US much better than we understand them. More people need to learn about dog communication so they can recognize attempts at communication, assess them as accurately as possible and give their dog a chance to be heard. This includes vocalizations. There is a very large difference between a play growl, an unsure growl, a warning growl and the silent dog (and the silent/still dog is the one you SHOULD beware). I'm amazed that dogs put up with the amount of misinterpretation that they do....


----------



## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Cracker said:


> Yes, fear. Fear of loss of control. Fear of an uncontrollable dog.


fear based aggression? i think it could work. though i have never been inside the mind of someone who has that need so i cant say its 100% so... but i could see it.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

It's like this...Bullies don't bully because they're secure in themselves. They bully because feeling like they have power/control over something helps them feel more secure. Aggression also is known to release dopamine in the brain, so it is self rewarding. There are many things that humans do that are based in underlying insecurities, but our insecurity stops us from admitting it...lol.

In dogs, at least in my experience, insecurity can trigger aggression in other insecure dogs. Cracker for example is triggered by EXCESSIVELY submissive dogs and she will immediately posture and escalate to bullying behaviour. But she is not a confident dog herself, though people may think she is based on the posturing. Her insecurity triggers this need to "dominate" the more anxious dog. 

A truly confident dog or human has no NEED to dominate, they negotiate their way through their worlds with relative ease...good communicators for the most part and they choose their battles carefully.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I know EXACTLY what you mean, MDawn. You don't sit around and watch your dogs hurt each other, but sometimes there are lessons that only interactions with other dogs can teach.


Yes.
Auz got his butt whooped as a youngster from an older, very dog savvy border collie. The BC and I were playing ball along with Auz. Auz lost interest in the toy and decided he'd rather pester the BC. Shadow (the BC) avoided him at all costs, ducking her head around him, etc. She finally got annoyed and bared teeth. Auz was 2 inches from her face. He took her teeth baring as an invitation to start with his annoying yapping right in her face. She lit into him, it was a swirly mass of fur and teeth for all of 2 seconds, then it was over. Auz learned a valuable lesson without getting hurt.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

GreatDaneMom said:


> i guess everyone has their own meaning of what it is to be in charge. for me, personally, my being in charge is being confident and giving my dogs the support and confidence they need as well to be successful and happy. being able to teach them commands, but without argument but willingness.
> but when other people say they are in charge, i hear it differently. its always being "dominant and alpha"- rolling them, leash popping and yelling, staring them down to be "intimidating", etc. and to me, i dont need something like that.


We've actually had that discussion here recently! You may find this thread interesting:.

There's a woman at my workplace who's the latter type you mentioned. A bunch of us were talking dogs at work one day and she told us about her son's dog, who he lets up on his furniture. "[Dog] doesn't dare get on the couch at MY house," she said proudly. "He's scared to death of me." I just kind of looked at her and said, thoughtfully, "I don't think I'd want my dog to be _scared_ of me." I think she felt kind of stupid after that; she muttered something about how she didn't really mean he was scared, just that he listened to her. Seriously, though... some people consider it a point of pride to have their dog terrified to "misbehave" (and I put "misbehave" in quotation marks because there's no way that a dog who's allowed on the furniture at home would know it was "wrong" to get on the furniture elsewhere). They equate "leader" with "drill sergeant" and it's those jerks who are ruining the term "leader" for other people.

Another example: My brother's friend "trained" her Golden Retriever to stay on her property by screaming at the dog every time its paws touched the street. The dog learned quickly to stay on the property so it didn't get screamed at, so in that girls' mind, she's a successful dog trainer. It's just stupid.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Something to remember..... Well a few things......
> 
> Dogs, most dogs learn very quickly...... They learn something about you with each encounter.
> 
> ...


What does a dog, who will take and run with the information that you will back down from growling, learn from that experience? How does that effect his behavior? Does he continue to growl at you in the future for the same reason he growled at you before? Well, to that I say GOOD! I'd much rather my dog growl at me over a treat than lunge and bite me. Growling doesn't hurt me. If a dog knows that he never needs to go past a growl to get me to listen, there's no reason for him to ever hurt me. Will the dog decide to start growling in other situations? Well, dogs don't growl for no reason. Chances are, he would have growled in those situations anyways (so long as he wasn't trained to bite instead of growl).

Also, what is your definition of "backing off?" Is it someone who habitually avoids their dog for growling and never acknowledges their dog for growling? Or is it someone who leaves their dog alone and gives them space when they growl, then comes back, only when their dog is in a better mood, with a training plan and the intention of fixing the underlying reason for the growl?


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I think it's important to note JohnnyBandit's breed is Australian Cattle Dogs. ACDs are less likely to growl out of fear (not to say fearful/insecure ACDs don't exist, but that they are more likely to be coming from a place of confident) and more likely to "run with" the knowledge that growling gets the owner to back down. It's just the type of dog they are: "a lot." That being said, I don't think an instance of resource guarding is the moment to suddenly start being a leader...


I guess I don't understand what confidence means in a dog. (I'm quoting this, but read dogdragoness's response to you as well).

To me, a confident dog is one that goes boldly into a situation/problem and will try to figure it out, use it, analyze it, etc. Unlike the way Wally was where he panicked and avoided and hesitated around new situations and challenges. Wally would need to see he can be successful before he really got into it and tried to figure it out. To me, a confident dog would meet the challenge head on (I can do this!) and start working for a solution to the problem, instead being scared that he'll get it wrong and worry about the consequences to come (until he learned that I won't eat him because he pawed instead of sat).

I don't take "confidence" to mean "will try to dominate my life". Confident, to me, is the way Wally is now. He'll engage a problem and try to solve it without fear of "what if I do it wrong?" He'll shrug it off and try again. And if he just CAN'T get it, he won't panic, but he'll be like "can I have a hint? can you break it down?"

So even with a confident dog (and I say this because I WANT a confident dog - that's what I spent 15 months of our life together on Wally on - confidence building) I wouldn't see the need to say "I'm in charge, you're just the dog, you will obey my every whim." but instead I would run with shaping and let him teach himself behaviors and I'm just the feedback giver. A facilitator of learning, so to speak.



wvasko said:


> The quote below hit nail on head because I did nothing to tell this dog that I was in charge etc, did not have to, I just worked dog after a couple kennel adjustment days before training started so I could read dog. All dogs are started with an adjustment period because they are in a very new strange place.


I don't even think in terms of "dominance" or "Who's in charge?"

I just use shaping to teach him. Really, I say he teaches himself. After all, he's doing all the thinking. He's the one that has to analyze what got him a mark and reward and what didn't and in what order.

It's like when my mom wanted Wally to stay out of the kitchen. I didn't block him or stop him or cue to lie down here, etc. I just stood back from him (no social pressure) and waited. When he looked at the "line" (a brass plate sort of thing in the floor between rooms where the carpet used to be) I rewarded him. Eventually he figured out there's something about this line. So he pawed it - another c/t. 

Then he pawed it with both paws. And then scratched it. Then put paws on it - but I held out and then he lied down. Big time reward. 

He taught himself how to stay out of the kitchen. I gave no cues, pressure, anything. He could have walked right in. 

If 'traditional' trainers can see dominance in that, so be it. I don't think of it in terms of dominance. I think of it in terms of Wally being presented with a puzzle (I'm not in the kitchen, he is, so what's going on?) and he figured out a solution that I and he can work with.

And thus, the behavior was born. He'll come to the "line". Put his paws on it, and lie down.

I don't see shaping as dominance.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Binkalette said:


> If it's a strange dog, i will listen to the growl. If it is one of my own dogs, I will not listen because anything I am doing to cause them to growl should NOT warrant a growl, much less a bite.


I don't quiet agree with the part about how anything you're doing to cause them to growl should not warrant a growl, much less a bite. 

What if your dog has been injured at some point during the day, and you didn't realize it. Then, you go to give him a nice petting session, or massage, etc. and he growls when you touch the injured area? Obviously, if he's been hurt, growling is his reaction to you touching the area and, hey, it hurts. 
It's his way of communicating to you: "oh, btw, I got hurt today, and it hurts when you touch it." 

I think that definitely would warrant a growl. 

Or, if you were trimming his nails, and accidentally went a bit too far down, he'd growl, and it's his way of communicating that it hurts. 

Or, if you were trimming the nails, or giving a bath, or what have you, and you were holding him in a position that was uncomfortable to him, kind of like the other day when my niece was having an xray on her knee, it was an uncomfortable position to be in, so she said so. Your dog's growl would be like this, saying that it's uncomfortable. 

Now, in the xray example, the xray had to be done, so suck it up, it will only take a minute, and sometimes, the response to your dog is the same, "sorry buddy, almost done", but if he's uncomfortable, I think a growl is warranted. Doesn't mean you need to take action, he's just telling you....


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Cracker said:


> A truly confident dog or human has no NEED to dominate, they negotiate their way through their worlds with relative ease...good communicators for the most part and they choose their battles carefully.



Exactly.

I'm teaching Wally how to negotiate the world he's in, and he and I learned and are still learning each other's communication.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Cracker, excellent points. 



RaeganW said:


> I think it's important to note JohnnyBandit's breed is Australian Cattle Dogs. ACDs are less likely to growl out of fear (not to say fearful/insecure ACDs don't exist, but that they are more likely to be coming from a place of confident) and more likely to "run with" the knowledge that growling gets the owner to back down. It's just the type of dog they are: "a lot." That being said, *I don't think an instance of resource guarding is the moment to suddenly start being a leader...*


I agree. I think it's the moment to figure out how to teach my dog that he doesn't _need_ to guard his resources from me. To be honest, I don't care if he feels like he CAN guard his resources from me or growl at me -- he's a dog, his understanding of who stuff belongs to isn't pre-programmed in his brain. But if he feels like he never has to guard stuff from me I get what I want - a dog who doesn't resource guard.



Nargle said:


> Also, what is your definition of "backing off?" Is it someone who habitually avoids their dog for growling and never acknowledges their dog for growling? Or is it someone who leaves their dog alone and gives them space when they growl, then comes back, only when their dog is in a better mood, with a training plan and the intention of fixing the underlying reason for the growl?


This makes all the difference in the world to me. Walking on eggshells around your dog so he doesn't growl at you isn't dealing with the situation, IMO. But I think it was LynnI who phrased it as giving up one battle to win the war -- that's how I feel about it, too.



ETA: And this is all based on the dogs I have _now_. If I had a dog with a personality that these techniques didn't work for, I'd figure out something that worked for that dog.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

doxiemommy said:


> I don't quiet agree with the part about how anything you're doing to cause them to growl should not warrant a growl, much less a bite.
> 
> What if your dog has been injured at some point during the day, and you didn't realize it. Then, you go to give him a nice petting session, or massage, etc. and he growls when you touch the injured area? Obviously, if he's been hurt, growling is his reaction to you touching the area and, hey, it hurts.
> It's his way of communicating to you: "oh, btw, I got hurt today, and it hurts when you touch it."
> ...


If my dogs are uncomfortable, their (seemingly) first line of defense is a yelp. THAT I listen to. I would certainly hate to have a house full of dogs who thought it was perfectly acceptable to growl and bite _every_ time they were displeased. (Speaking only for _my_ dogs interacting with_ me_, here).


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Cracker said:


> I think it was Wally who asked "why do people need to dominate their dogs"?


If you meant my post, it's funny - I guess Wally has won - he has assimilated me into his identity such that the post is HIS now


----------



## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

In my household, it is a non issue, because it doesn't happen except with little puppies occasionally, and I will tell you why. Desensitization to resource guarding is a way of life around here. All dogs get regularly treated when they are eating. Frequently (but not always once past puppyhood) removal of toys or objects is accompanied by a cookie. 

My dogs have zero drive to guard their stuff from me, or anyone else. None whatsoever. Anyone could come in my house, open a crate, and remove a food bowl from which the dog was eating. No problem. They know something will be coming as a reward, or that the person is going to go put something else in the bowl and return it. (We do this on occasion as well).

This is not rocket science, and it is not hard to accomplish. Unfortunately it is human nature to want to correct what is wrong instead of focusing on rewarding what is right. 

I have a dog in here for training, a 14 mos old intact male. For the first 4-5 days, he was given very high value treats during his meals. Is/was he a resource guarder? Would he have growled at me, if I had opened his crate to take his bowl? I don't know. Don't care, really. I choose to use my most powerful training tool, my primate brain, and prevent this ever happening.

I have used these protocols with my dogs for a very long time, over 10 years. It has never. ever. failed.

Would I correct a growling dog? NO. I would find what is the cause of the growl, and address that issue.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> I think it's important to note JohnnyBandit's breed is Australian Cattle Dogs. ACDs are less likely to growl out of fear (not to say fearful/insecure ACDs don't exist, but that they are more likely to be coming from a place of confident) and more likely to "run with" the knowledge that growling gets the owner to back down. It's just the type of dog they are: "a lot." That being said, I don't think an instance of resource guarding is the moment to suddenly start being a leader...


Yes I have ACD's. I have owned other breeds as well. Roughly 40 or so dogs in all. (That is including my hounds.) But I am not really talking about my dogs. I am typically a puppy buyer but from time to time I get a young adult. Doesn't matter. Whatever the breed, the dogs I own and have owned don't typically become fearful about too many things. I don't have much of an issue. Because I set the foundation right from the start. Puppy or adult. I set and enforce the ground rules from day one. It is real simple.... The dog wants certain things. food, attention/affection/playtime/ water (I am not an advocate of controlling water) I want certain things. The dog not to jump all over me, get on my furniture, beds, etc. These days they call this NILIF.... 35 years ago, when I learned the concept, we did not have a name for it. 

The growling issues I have dealt with have largely have been with clients dogs. I have worked with I have no idea how many breeds and mixes.



GreatDaneMom said:


> i guess everyone has their own meaning of what it is to be in charge. for me, personally, my being in charge is being confident and giving my dogs the support and confidence they need as well to be successful and happy. being able to teach them commands, but without argument but willingness.
> but when other people say they are in charge, i hear it differently. its always being "dominant and alpha"- rolling them, leash popping and yelling, staring them down to be "intimidating", etc. and to me, i dont need something like that.
> 
> but this is like a lot of other things that everyone has their own set meaning of. so if i misunderstood your meaning, sorry. lol but after the dreaded CM came on television, ive heard so much of the being in charge stuff that i want to shoot someone.


I don't roll dogs. I want what I want, I work to get it. If I have to yell, I need to step away. Intimidation does not work. I do use leash corrections when I need to. But many over use them.



Nargle said:


> *What does a dog, who will take and run with the information that you will back down from growling, learn from that experience? How does that effect his behavior? Does he continue to growl at you in the future for the same reason he growled at you before? Well, to that I say GOOD!* I'd much rather my dog growl at me over a treat than lunge and bite me. Growling doesn't hurt me. If a dog knows that he never needs to go past a growl to get me to listen, there's no reason for him to ever hurt me. Will the dog decide to start growling in other situations? Well, dogs don't growl for no reason. Chances are, he would have growled in those situations anyways (so long as he wasn't trained to bite instead of growl).


First of all.... If your dog continues to growl at you, (other than play growls) for whatever the reason, it is NOT good! IF it is fear based it means you have not addressed the dogs fear and worked to resolve it. No dog should have to go through life in fear. If the dog is growling for aggression/intimidation reasons, it is probably worse. Because each time the dog gets the response it wants from you, it builds power. 

Understand.... There are people out there that live in fear in their own homes. Constantly walking on eggshells. I have worked with people that were not sleeping in their own bed, have not sat on their couch in a year, etc. I worked with someone whose dog had not been to the vet in four years because it became aggressive at the sight of a leash. The cases I am speaking of, fear was never a factor. Things did not start off this way.... The owner did not come home one day to find that their dog had decided to take over the entire house. It always starts small. A growl at the food bowl, a growl over a toy, etc. Over time the owner rewarded the dog by backing off.( Leaving the do alone and letting it do what it wants.) It builds over time. The story is always the same. I can almost write that story before I get there. It also tends to start anywhere from 9 months to 36 months, depending on the breed, dog, owner. etc. That is what I meant by taking the information and running with it.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> This is not rocket science, and it is not hard to accomplish. Unfortunately it is human nature to want to correct what is wrong instead of focusing on rewarding what is right.


Or address the symptoms instead of working the cure.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I teach my dogs that nothing belongs to them, therefore there is no need for them to guard it, toys get taken up after play & the puppy only gets toys at night gets toys in her crate. They even have to sit & wait until their food is on the ground before they get to eat. So nothing belongs to them really.

Johnnybandit- you have ACD'S I see, as do I, they are my dog of choice, they are the ultimate working dog IMHO.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> I teach my dogs that nothing belongs to them, therefore there is no need for them to guard it, toys get taken up after play & the puppy only gets toys at night gets toys in her crate. They even have to sit & wait until their food is on the ground before they get to eat. So nothing belongs to them really.


This makes me wonder how dogs see possession. 

For example, Wally's never tried to keep or guard anything from me, does that me he thinks nothing is his (and if so, why, if it's natural for dogs to claim stuff?), or does he think "it's mine while I have it, but then it's not if he has it."? 

Do dogs have a concept of "it's mine" in the human sense (i.e. a persistent state, for example, your car is yours even though you aren't driving it or sitting in it), or does possession = who has it at the moment (possession is a fluid state based on the moment).

If dogs don't have a persistent state of "what's mine" how do we then teach them that there's a persistent state of "nothing is yours". If possession is at-the-moment ownership, doesn't the dog already think all those things they don't possess in their paws/mouths are already "not theirs"?

ACDs do sound like awesome dogs - of course, I think all the herds are cool and great. I'd love to experience a herder of some sort at least once in my life.


----------



## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

I still don't get it. In terms of dog's that have taken over an owners house... I still don't understand how the growl, itself is *the* problem. In my mind, the problem would be *WHY* the dog growled. 

If my dog growls at me, I will back off at that moment. Namely, its a personal safety issue. I don't want to end up in the ER because I ignored a very obvious warning. I don't want to "push" my dog into resorting to a potential bite that would fracture our relationship. Instead, I will back off, while at the same time realizing my dog has a problem and working on *that* problem. The growl is just an indicator of a problem.

As for possession...I don't really think about it. My Mastiff has a toy basket that has all of his toys in it. If he wants a toy, he goes to his basket and picks the toy that he wants. Simple. I can take whatever I need to out of his mouth because he knows that either A.) I'll return it or B.) I'll replace it with something better...Both dogs, if they want to eat, were trained that they have to lay down and wait until released in order to do so. 9x out of 10, I don't even have to give the command "Manners!". I pick up their bowls and they normally will automatically just lay down. They sit at the door patiently when they need to go out. I didn't teach them that with the intention of showing possession and that I, in all of my awesomeness, control everything. I did it to teach them self-control. I don't care a fig if Uallis thinks his toys are mine or if they are his. It doesn't matter in the end to me.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Mdawn said:


> I still don't get it. In terms of dog's that have taken over an owners house... I still don't understand how the growl, itself is *the* problem. In my mind, the problem would be *WHY* the dog growled.
> 
> If my dog growls at me, I will back off at that moment. Namely, its a personal safety issue. I don't want to end up in the ER because I ignored a very obvious warning. I don't want to "push" my dog into resorting to a potential bite that would fracture our relationship. Instead, I will back off, while at the same time realizing my dog has a problem and working on *that* problem. The growl is just an indicator of a problem.
> 
> As for possession...I don't really think about it. My Mastiff has a toy basket that has all of his toys in it. If he wants a toy, he goes to his basket and picks the toy that he wants. Simple. I can take whatever I need to out of his mouth because he knows that either A.) I'll return it or B.) I'll replace it with something better...Both dogs, if they want to eat, were trained that they have to lay down and wait until released in order to do so. 9x out of 10, I don't even have to give the command "Manners!". I pick up their bowls and they normally will automatically just lay down. They sit at the door patiently when they need to go out. I didn't teach them that with the intention of showing possession and that I, in all of my awesomeness, control everything. I did it to teach them self-control. I don't care a fig if Uallis thinks his toys are mine or if they are his. It doesn't matter in the end to me.


Who said the growl was the problem??? The problem is the dog has learned that it can intimidate its owner. Having said that, it is the form of communication they use intimidate most often. But they do use others..... I had a dog that would literally push its owner off the couch.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> First of all.... If your dog continues to growl at you, (other than play growls) for whatever the reason, it is NOT good! IF it is fear based it means you have not addressed the dogs fear and worked to resolve it. No dog should have to go through life in fear. If the dog is growling for aggression/intimidation reasons, it is probably worse. Because each time the dog gets the response it wants from you, it builds power.
> 
> Understand.... There are people out there that live in fear in their own homes. Constantly walking on eggshells. I have worked with people that were not sleeping in their own bed, have not sat on their couch in a year, etc. I worked with someone whose dog had not been to the vet in four years because it became aggressive at the sight of a leash. The cases I am speaking of, fear was never a factor. Things did not start off this way.... The owner did not come home one day to find that their dog had decided to take over the entire house. It always starts small. A growl at the food bowl, a growl over a toy, etc. Over time the owner rewarded the dog by backing off.( Leaving the do alone and letting it do what it wants.) It builds over time. The story is always the same. I can almost write that story before I get there. It also tends to start anywhere from 9 months to 36 months, depending on the breed, dog, owner. etc. That is what I meant by taking the information and running with it.


Who said I was promoting ignoring the dog's problems and not working to resolve it? Every single post I've made is about fixing the dog's problem though training! I DON'T want my dog to growl at me indefinitely, of course I would work to resolve the issue and stop the growling in the long term. However, if the problem is one that requires an extended period of time to resolve, and isn't a one time only incident (such as resource guarding) I would definitely want my dog to feel as though he doesn't need to ever go past the growl, rather than fighting with him until he's driven to biting. Punishing your dog for growling is just fighting with your dog.

As far as people who live in fear and walk on eggshells in their own homes, I'm not sure how that applies to anything I've said. IMO, letting your dogs walk all over you is just as bad as fighting with your dog every time he growls. Either way you're ignoring the root problem of the aggression and not working to resolve it.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Nargle said:


> What does a dog, who will take and run with the information that you will back down from growling, learn from that experience? How does that effect his behavior? Does he continue to growl at you in the future for the same reason he growled at you before? Well, to that I say GOOD! I'd much rather my dog growl at me over a treat than lunge and bite me. Growling doesn't hurt me. If a dog knows that he never needs to go past a growl to get me to listen, there's no reason for him to ever hurt me. Will the dog decide to start growling in other situations? Well, dogs don't growl for no reason. Chances are, he would have growled in those situations anyways (so long as he wasn't trained to bite instead of growl).


This is what I was refering to...



Nargle said:


> *Who said I was promoting ignoring the dog's problems and not working to resolve it?* Every single post I've made is about fixing the dog's problem though training! I DON'T want my dog to growl at me indefinitely, of course I would work to resolve the issue and stop the growling in the long term.


The first quote sure sounds like you are looking at a long term situation from your first post I quoted.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I was thinking of the nickname for Richard, but trying to say it in a more PC way. IMO, dogs, like people, have their own preferences, and some try very hard to maximize reinforcers, most are okay with equal give and take, and still others could care less. Whichever dog you have, your responsibility doesn't change. The being "in charge" thing is a moot point in responsible dog care, and redundant.


Ah. got it! (duh!) I've been hosting a TTouch workshop all weekend, and my brains are like oatmeal!


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

KBLover said:


> This makes me wonder how dogs see possession.
> 
> For example, Wally's never tried to keep or guard anything from me, does that me he thinks nothing is his (and if so, why, if it's natural for dogs to claim stuff?), or does he think "it's mine while I have it, but then it's not if he has it."?
> 
> ...


Your descriptions and the accounts of your interactions with Wally lead me to believe he is a great little dog. And that you work really hard to build a great bond with him and like to understand what makes him tick as well as the reasons a method works and does not work with him. 

That being said, Wally is very very different than most herding dogs and different in the extreme from the average ACD. You as well, tend to have different thought processes and appearant temperment of the average successful ACD owner.....

I am not saying that you cannot be a successful ACD owner. I am saying that to become successful you will end up changing your thought processes a bit.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Your descriptions and the accounts of your interactions with Wally lead me to believe he is a great little dog. And that you work really hard to build a great bond with him and like to understand what makes him tick as well as the reasons a method works and does not work with him.
> 
> That being said, Wally is very very different than most herding dogs and different in the extreme from the average ACD. You as well, tend to have different thought processes and appearant temperment of the average successful ACD owner.....
> 
> I am not saying that you cannot be a successful ACD owner. I am saying that to become successful you will end up changing your thought processes a bit.


Never particularly set my sights on being an ACD owner. That said, I have been a herding dog owner for some 40 years now. My herding dogs respect another dog's possession of an object, and expect others to respect their possession. I think that's fair. Survival instinct says you don't let others steal your valuable resources or you will be eliminated from the gene pool. As I see it the point is not to teach a dog that "nothing is yours" but that "I can be trusted." I teach them that leaving stuff has its rewards, that if I walk up to their food dish, I'm likely to drop something especially tasty in there. If I ask them to give me something, I will give them something better (or, if safe, the original item back.) I don't wait until the lesson is needed right now. I train it like I train everything else - hopefully well before I need it. Because when I need my dog to drop something, give me something or leave something alone, it may be important. So I want the dog to understand from a time when it was not so important. It's served me well over the years. A recent incident was this spring when we had a 100 year hail storm. Tennis ball sized hail at my house. Totalled our cars, ruined our roof and siding, knocked out skylights and windows, turned this part of town into a disaster zone. (TG for insurance!) It also killed an awful lot of wildlife that was unfortunate enough to be caught in it. Two days after the storm, Ray came prancing around from the side yard, proudly carrying a rotting starling. I asked him to drop it, and told all the dogs to leave it. Went inside to get gloves and a bag to dispose of the poor thing. When I came back out, it was exactly where I had asked him to drop it. Nobody touched it. That wasn't a matter of "respect" or "alpha" or anything like that. It was a matter of training.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

'Correcting a dog for growling will cause him to go directly to biting, without warning.'

All these years I must have been doing it wrong. I've never had a dog respond that way.

That said, there are different types of growls/warnings, and they are issued for different reasons. When an adolescent pup starts feeling froggy, and claiming ownership of the couch, that's one thing and it is handled differently than approaching an abused and starving dog with a bone.

The former is a pretty normal part of the maturation process, and shouldn't be a cause for a freakout. The latter should be handled extremely carefully--if done at all.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

If I have to give my dog treats for obeying commands, then the terrorists have won.


If I have to give my employee money to work for me, the terrorists have won? Shoot. If they respected me, they'd work for free.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Your descriptions and the accounts of your interactions with Wally lead me to believe he is a great little dog. And that you work really hard to build a great bond with him and like to understand what makes him tick as well as the reasons a method works and does not work with him.
> 
> That being said, Wally is very very different than most herding dogs and different in the extreme from the average ACD. You as well, tend to have different thought processes and appearant temperment of the average successful ACD owner.....
> 
> I am not saying that you cannot be a successful ACD owner. I am saying that to become successful you will end up changing your thought processes a bit.



I can respect that. I won't pretend my temperament would be a perfect match for all dogs nor my preferred training method. I'm honestly surprised I even can train a dog (let alone get this into it!)

I might have just been "born" to work with soft, fearful dogs. They always say you get the dog you should (or something like that LOL), meaning the dogs in your life are the ones meant for you.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> This is what I was refering to...
> 
> 
> 
> The first quote sure sounds like you are looking at a long term situation from your first post I quoted.


Well, I suppose if you take my post out of context it might sound like that.... Never mind all the rest of the stuff I said about training and trying to address the root cause of the problem....

I was responding to a quote of yours in which you insinuated that backing down from a growl just a couple of times may cause your dog to become out of control. Which doesn't sound like a long-term situation to me.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> 'Correcting a dog for growling will cause him to go directly to biting, without warning.'
> All these years I must have been doing it wrong. I've never had a dog respond that way.


Agreed, The dog better have a bona-fide reason for growling, pain/fear etc if not then Houston we have a problem and I will handle it as I see fit.



> If I have to give my dog treats for obeying commands, then the terrorists have won.


Got no argument with the treat/terrorist program as no treat training does work and is my preference. Carrying a 50lb bag of treats while training just has never worked "for me" Notice quotes "for me" Now do I give treats occasionally, yes as a bonus not a daily/weekly paycheck program. Do I tell other people not to give treats, of course not.



> I was responding to a quote of yours in which you insinuated that backing down from a growl just a couple of times may cause your dog to become out of control. Which doesn't sound like a long-term situation to me.


Through the years I have had a few dogs that growl and launch attacks at the kennel gates and are trying to chew through the gate saliva flinging etc just to talk to me personally. The 10 lb dogs not a worry but the 50 to 100 lb dogs gate attack is a tad different. Before you can address any long term situation you must address the short term situation of just getting in dog's kennel run. Not for the faint of heart.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I can respect that. I won't pretend my temperament would be a perfect match for all dogs nor my preferred training method. I'm honestly surprised I even can train a dog (let alone get this into it!)
> 
> *I might have just been "born" to work with soft, fearful dogs. They always say you get the dog you should (or something like that LOL), meaning the dogs in your life are the ones meant for you*.


I'll admit I prefer a soft dog over a knucklehead (Tag vs. Auz). In some ways though (for me), Auz is easier to work with (as a beginner) because mistakes are overlooked. Tag takes them personally  My soft dogs have improved my ability to read dogs, and my knucklehead made me a better handler.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Agreed, The dog better have a bona-fide reason for growling, pain/fear etc if not then Houston we have a problem and I will handle it as I see fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, if your dog is growling at you, you have a problem. You don't have to gasp in fear and withdraw. You can give the dog a glance, and continue on like you weren't interested in what he's doing, or do one more small thing and quit. If the dog has an object (and you never bothered to train him to give it up) you can redirect the dog, have someone ring the door bell, or do something interesting somewhere else to get the dog's attention off the object. THEN you come up with a step by step plan to fix your problem (or if you can't do that by yourself, you contact someone who can.) 

Now what frequently happens when a dog growls is that the human goes into lizardbrain reactive OMYGAWD-I-CANT-LET-HIM-GET-AWAY-WITH-THAT!!!!! mode and pushes the point to an already adrenalized dog. Frequently what happens then is they get themselves bit. Now you REALLY have a problem. Because not only are you afraid of your sweet dog who showed you that after all he is an animal, but you have effectively taught him that growling really doesn't work. But hey, biting does! Unless you are Cesar Millan or some other macho type who apparently doesn't mind being bloodied by a dog because you are doing stupid things time after time, this is likely to go very bad for the dog. As in, he's going to die.

As to 50 lbs. of treats in your pocket, really??? I can make a single stick of string cheese last several training sessions. Note "training" there. For behaviors that are strong and on cue, I don't need to constantly reinforce a dog, though I may occasionally offer a surprise just to keep that behavior strong.



LazyGRanch713 said:


> I'll admit I prefer a soft dog over a knucklehead (Tag vs. Auz). In some ways though (for me), Auz is easier to work with (as a beginner) because mistakes are overlooked. Tag takes them personally  My soft dogs have improved my ability to read dogs, and my knucklehead made me a better handler.


Where's the "Like" button? Every dog brings their own lessons.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> As to 50 lbs. of treats in your pocket, really??? I can make a single stick of string cheese last several training sessions. Note "training" there. For behaviors that are strong and on cue, I don't need to constantly reinforce a dog, though I
> may occasionally offer a surprise just to keep that behavior strong.


I'm so sorry I had no idea that somebody would take my exaggeration of a 50 lb sack on back seriously, really????. I do applaud your string of cheese lasting several training sessions program. I did not give any training advice because growling dogs can sometimes be dangerous and I just don't give advice on possible biting dogs that I can't read as that would be very silly on my part. It's not a goal of mine to get an amateur owner bit.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Agreed, The dog better have a bona-fide reason for growling, pain/fear etc if not then Houston we have a problem and I will handle it as I see fit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Huh. I responded to this once and it disappeared. So if you read it twice, that's why (I am sooooo un-techie)

If your dog growls at you, you do have a problem. But you don't have to gasp and withdraw in fear. You also don't have to try to fix everything by being more intimidating than the dog that very instant. You can glance at him and continue on like you don't care what he's up to, or do one more small thing and quit. If he's got something he can't have and you never taught him to give you stuff, you can create a distraction - have someone ring the doorbell, do something to get his interest off the object. Then you go away and form a step by step plan to work on the problem when you are both feeling calmer and less threatened. If you can't come up with the plan, contact someone who can help you do so.

What frequently happens is that the human goes into reactive, lizardbrain OMYGAWD-I-CANT-LET-HIM-GET-AWAY-WITH-THAT mode and pushes themselves on the already adrenalized dog. At that point they are likely to get themselves bitten. Then you REALLY have a problem. Because now you are a little afraid or wary of your sweet dog who has shown you that he actually is an animal. And you have taught him that growling doesn't work, but hey! Biting DOES work. This discovery ends in death for a lot of dogs who have no idea what the real stakes are.

As to 50 lbs. of treats to train - really??? I can generally make a single stick of string cheese last several training sessions (unless I am shaping something new - then I use a lot more) And once a behavior is learned and on cue, I don't need food, though I'll occasionally present a surprise goodie for an outstanding effort, just to keep the behavior strong.

As to the dog eating the kennel to get to you? Well, admittedly you may work with a more difficult clientele than I do. But I've certainly worked with a number of dogs who would have bitten me if I did the wrong thing or was careless. The nice thing is that I have training tools which allow me to influence the dog's behavior BEFORE I can touch them (or get into their personal space)



wvasko said:


> I'm so sorry I had no idea that somebody would take my exaggeration of a 50 lb sack on back seriously, really????. I do applaud your string of cheese lasting several training sessions program. I did not give any training advice because growling dogs can sometimes be dangerous and I just don't give advice on possible biting dogs that I can't read as that would be very silly on my part. It's not a goal of mine to get an amateur owner bit.


Well, considering that my advice was to go slow, form a game plan and/or get help - to TRAIN instead of confront - I'm not going to stay awake nights worrying that I may have gotten someone bitten (though my advice may KEEP some people from doing the wrong thing and getting themselves bitten.) I'm okay with that.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Well, considering that my advice was to go slow, form a game plan and/or get help - to TRAIN instead of confront - I'm not going to stay awake nights worrying that I may have gotten someone bitten (though my advice may KEEP some people from doing the wrong thing and getting themselves bitten.) I'm okay with that.


I see nothing wrong with you giving advice, whatever works for you is fine. It's that "beat of a different drummer" thing


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

wvasko said:


> I'm so sorry I had no idea that somebody would take my exaggeration of a 50 lb sack on back seriously, really????


It's close to the "slam" against 'treat trainers' (which in itself is an insult to the process, as if all those of us who use treats do is wave food in the dog's face - which is just NOT right...or training, something a lot of "old school" trainers don't get - you, JohnnyBandit, and Marsh are the few I've met who do - the ones in real life I meet just make me roll my eyes, have Wally do some commands and walk off). The "I don't want to always have to carry treats around!!11!1!!!" mentality totally forgetting that after a behavior is learned - you don't HAVE TO.

I figured you were exaggerating, but it's often said similarly in reality. Heck, that "Dogfather" commerical (you know, the 'traditional' trainer that has a "secret system" LOLWUT) that I get SICK of seeing uses the other one "Fattening treat training". Hello. Small pieces? Healthy treats? *rolls eyes*

While I disagree that being 'anti-treat' is better than using treats (hence my also non-agreement with the albeit fun statement Marsh uses, which led to my signature lol fun thread that was), I also know that treats aren't the only reinforcer in the world and not the only one I use - but in my mind, why eliminate options? I want MORE ways to get inside of a dog's mind and start rearranging the furniture, not less. JMO.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> I see nothing wrong with you giving advice, whatever works for you is fine. It's that "beat of a different drummer" thing


That's nice. But it does make me wonder why you wrote:" did not give any training advice because growling dogs can sometimes be dangerous and I just don't give advice on possible biting dogs that I can't read as that would be very silly on my part. It's not a goal of mine to get an amateur owner bit."

Does make it sound just a bit like you think there's something wrong with it. I don't think telling someone to do nothing rash, and create a training plan/get help is particularly harmful, though, or likely to get them bitten. Perhaps just the opposite.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Through the years I have had a few dogs that growl and launch attacks at the kennel gates and are trying to chew through the gate saliva flinging etc just to talk to me personally. The 10 lb dogs not a worry but the 50 to 100 lb dogs gate attack is a tad different. Before you can address any long term situation you must address the short term situation of just getting in dog's kennel run. Not for the faint of heart.


I would hope that in this kind of situation you wouldn't just dive right into the kennel and start wrestling with the dog, lol! :biggrin1: Sometimes a dog just needs a little space in the short term before he can trust you enough not to take your arm off in the long term. 

Just curious, but how _would_ you get an aggressive dog to allow you to come into his kennel in the short term, other than giving him space and working on building his trust/tolerance incrementally?


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> It's close to the "slam" against 'treat trainers' (which in itself is an insult to the process, as if all those of us who use treats do is wave food in the dog's face


It was not meant to be any kind of slam against treat training, just the fact that I might not use/amounts of treats as others do.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have one knucklehead (Izze) & one softie (Josie) when I'm working with both of them I always have to remember who I'm repremending lol. The softie won't take it seriously, but she does get intimidated & I have to rebound & apologize lol.

The good thing with them being trained by different methods (Izze = traditional, Josie = PR) is when I'm correcting one dog, the other doesn't pay attention because they know who I'm talking to lol.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

sugarr said:


> I'm talking about simply agressive dogs - not fear based agression or agression from pain etc.
> There is something like a dog who is just a a tuff case, agressive, terrorizing the family.
> And in those cases redirecting agression to the owner after the correction is not surprising at all... That's in the process - showing the dog that you are stronger. It may sound pretty primal but that's how it is.
> 
> ...


'

There is ALWAYS a reason for aggression, be it Resource gaurding, fear, pain or just hte dog thinks they're in control because the HUMANS haven't taken control. ALL can be worked on WITHOUT removing a vital warning. Removing the warning by punishing it WILL escalate aggression. If the dog is in control professional intervention is needed to get dog and family back on track, if it's gone too far, the dog WILL need to be removed from the situation so no one gets hurt. 

I'll tell you flat out, I have yet to meet a dog that was aggressive without SOME kind of reason behind it, at times the reason is hidden (as in a medical condition that wasn't diagnosed) and nearly every time there IS anxiety on the dogs part.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I have one knucklehead (Izze) & one softie (Josie) when I'm working with both of them I always have to remember who I'm repremending lol. The softie won't take it seriously, but she does get intimidated & I have to rebound & apologize lol.

The good thing with them being trained by different methods (Izze = traditional, Josie = PR) is when I'm correcting one dog, the other doesn't pay attention because they know who I'm talking to lol.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Here's what I'm getting from this:

Some people posting are dealing with the situation of a growl. A growl, ONE growl, a growl in whatever situation, just once.

Other people seem to be saying, or implying, that A growl, ONE growl in whatever situation just once is *just as bad* as a dog that growls in the same situation EVERY time that situation occurs. 

There seems to be some disconnect here. IMO, if MY dogs growl in a situation, say, a strange person approaches them too quickly and scares them, or I accidently touched an injured area, I think of that as a ONE TIME ONLY thing. It's ONE growl, and they're letting me know they are uncomfortable, or hurt.

IF my dogs growled EVERY time a certain situation occurs, it ceases to be a ONE TIME THING, and becomes a problem. AND, I would probably consider it a problem after 2 times, truthfully, because I'm very conscientious about wanting my dogs to be well adjusted and polite. 

Again, IMO, a ONE TIME THING growl requires different reaction than a pattern of growling EVERY TIME in a certain situation. AND, it seems that, in most posts that are saying that not punishing the growl will cause problems, people MAY be making the ONE TIME growl equally as bad as a EVERY TIME growl.

Maybe I'm making too much of a distinction, here, but if Harper growls in a situation, just that one time, I will listen, and see what the issue is, if there needs to be further action, I will work on training that issue.
If he continues to growl in that SAME EXACT situation, it has become a behavior pattern/problem, and needs more than just to be listened to.

This is actually happening. At home, we really don't have an issue of growling, they play growl, and occasionally in other situations that don't occur again. BUT, when we visit my brother's family, Harper has started to growl when he is next to me and one of my brother's dogs wants to come sit by me, too.
To me, I need to address this situation, NOT by simply listening, and finding out what's going on, but by training Harper, working on him guarding me with the other dog. It's a behavior problem NOW, not just a warning....


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

doxiemom, I look at on an individual basis, but I still analyze the reason for the one time growl just as I would the repetitive so I can work on the situation. Yes, if the dog growls because of an obvious injury it's going to be different (I'll soothe the dog and try not to touch the area unless neccesary or try to desensitize the dog to it if it's going to need continued exam), a stranger approaching I'm gonna step between the dog and the stranger so the dog gets the message that I'M the one who does the protecting and can relax. 

Continued growling, I'm gonna look at why and resolve, build trust if needed to get the dog to relax. If the dog is showing fear of stangers, objects or DA I'm gonna have people I trust come and work on it on nuetral ground first, then in the home/yard environment and suggest management techniques as well. If it's resource gaurding, I'd like it if it were causght early and will suggest trading games and resource managment, "nothing in life is free", "Leave it" and other things that let the dog know ALL things are controlled by the owner, not the dog. I'm also always going to encourge the owner to get a thyroid panel and tick titre for a start and a good heart and eye exam (my Mastiff started with aggression issues due to cardiomyopathy).


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Yes, I agree, even a one time growl needs to be listened to and analyzed, and sometimes, some action taken. But, the point I was trying to make (and probably not very successfully  ) was that a dog that growls EVERY time a certain situation occurs has moved BEYOND a warning growl into a behavior problem, and perhaps more serious intervention is necessary, so that the case doesn't become extreme, as in a dog controlling the home by guarding the doorway, or whatever extreme examples have been used. 

Of course, it makes sense to me that, if a dog continues to growl in the same situation, and the family does no training or intervention, then, yes, it may indeed become severe....


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> I'm so sorry I had no idea that somebody would take my exaggeration of a 50 lb sack on back seriously, really????. I do applaud your string of cheese lasting several training sessions program. I did not give any training advice because growling dogs can sometimes be dangerous and I just don't give advice on possible biting dogs that I can't read as that would be very silly on my part. It's not a goal of mine to get an amateur owner bit.


Wait a minute. You're WVasko. Are you telling me you would find it DIFFICULT to haul around a 50 pound sack? I'm crushed!! :*(


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Nargle said:


> I would hope that in this kind of situation you wouldn't just dive right into the kennel and start wrestling with the dog, lol! :biggrin1: Sometimes a dog just needs a little space in the short term before he can trust you enough not to take your arm off in the long term.
> 
> Just curious, but how _would_ you get an aggressive dog to allow you to come into his kennel in the short term, other than giving him space and working on building his trust/tolerance incrementally?


You build what you can build and when it comes time to enter if needed a full bite protection suit makes things much easier. With some dogs there's more show than go and with others as much go as show. If you're protected properly it's much easier on dog and man.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Nargle said:


> I would hope that in this kind of situation you wouldn't just dive right into the kennel and start wrestling with the dog, lol! :biggrin1: Sometimes a dog just needs a little space in the short term before he can trust you enough not to take your arm off in the long term.
> 
> Just curious, but how _would_ you get an aggressive dog to allow you to come into his kennel in the short term, other than giving him space and working on building his trust/tolerance incrementally?


We usually enforce evaluations for this purpose. Bring me your dog, and leave him with me for a few hours at no charge so I can see what reaction I'm going to get. Only a few times have I said "nope, sorry. Not going to work." If you have a mastiff who is hell bent on lunging at my face...we're not the facility for you. Plain and simple.
_In the short term_, depends on the dog (in my situation, anyhow). I've had dogs that were easily bribed (yes, I say bribed because I made SURE they saw I had food. REALLY good food, like chicken). 90% of them are easily bought this way. For the 10% who don't really give a damn about food, if I enter the room with THEIR leash (not a kennel lead, their leash from home) most of them are happy to take a sniff. If I put the leash on and show them that I'm the Giver Of Walks and All Other Things Good, most are happy to see me walk in. 
I've found that, _while there are indeed some truely aggressive dogs out there_, 99% of the "mean" looking dogs are just big chicken sh!ts. One dog was hell bent on attacking the door anytime I walked by, so whenever she did so, I would stop, turn away, and sit down and let her carry on for as long as she wanted. When she finally calmed down, I'd go. Rinse, repeat. 
Body language is amazing, too. Going in with a nervous dog with a boisterous voice and exaggerated body language might get you bit. Moving tensely might get you bitten as well. There's a fine line. Like Pawz mentioned, if you give them a curious glance like "oh, what was that? A growl? OK, hang on, I'm a little busy right now..." can work wonders. So can cocking your head at the dog (sounds stupid, I know.) An angry/tense/threatning animal doesn't usually cock their heads, and dogs know this. So if they're tense, worried, and on edge, cocking your head can diffuse a potential "altercation". So can slowly blinking and keeping your motions fluid. (The blinking thing works wonders on cats, BTW). 
It also helps if you can observe how the owners talk to their dogs, how they address them, and any nicnames they have, etc. We board a dog named Missy, she does not really like a whole lot of strangers right off the bat (smart girl ). But if you call her "Moo" (her nicname), she responds pleasantly. 
Just my two cents.



wvasko said:


> You build what you can build and when it comes time to enter if needed a full bite protection suit makes things much easier. With some dogs there's more show than go and with others as much go as show. If you're protected properly it's much easier on dog and man.


I don't know whether it's pathetic or (not to sound mean) or amusing when a dog is charging the door, baring teeth, and you open the door a crack and they rush to the other side of the room leaving a small trail of urine behind them. A lot of it really IS show. Auz puts on a show at my back door when there are strangers standing outside like you'd think he was a rabid attack dog. If I let them in and welcome them, he prances around with a toy in his mouth and can barely contain his joy at making their aquaintance!!


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

doxiemommy said:


> Here's what I'm getting from this:
> 
> Some people posting are dealing with the situation of a growl. A growl, ONE growl, a growl in whatever situation, just once.
> 
> ...


IMO, no one is promoting sitting around, twiddling your thumbs as your dog runs your life. Just about every one seems to be supporting the idea of "Take action with the dog if the growling is more than just a one time thing." However, the conflict seems to be generated when everybody has a different idea of what "take action" means. 

To some, it means use corrections and punishment to teach the dog that growling is wrong. The justification seems to be that if you don't show the dog that growling will not be tolerated, he will try to run your life. 

To others, taking action has much less to do with the actual growling, and much more to do with the root cause of the growl, and taking action may not necessarily involve any punishment at all (aimed at showing the dog he's "wrong,") but instead, works on building trust and conditioning a dog to tolerate your actions. The justification is that punishing the growl may teach your dog that it needs to increase the intensity of the aggression in order to get what he wants, and that you're not addressing the root cause of the problem and preventing it in the long-term simply by focussing on a symptom (the growl) of the problem.

I also think there may be opposing opinions on how to interpret a growl. Disregarding, for now, play growling and one-time "ouch you hurt my paw" kinds of growling, the people arguing seem to be interpreting growling in two different ways. One interpretation is that growling is a behavioral problem, and should be discouraged. Another is that growling is merely communication about a larger problem, and isn't a behavioral problem by itself, and thus should be heeded and not discouraged.

That's what I'm getting from this thread.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

There is this little white dog outside that I have been trying to earn trust to for about 3 days. Every day I give him food from my hand leave food outside water and a blanket inside a box. He has a collar that looks to small, he is tiny and cold. I can't do anything at all to help him then what I already have. NO ONE in this town will come pick him up , I got one shelter that said they would try to get out there but he would be PTS in three days if not claimed. They do not and will not attepmt to find homes, I obviously told them to jump of a cliff and forget it. Id rather take my chances and earn his trust. 

In the process of all this he has never ever growled at me, but he hates my dog. If lela is out with me he growls growls growls. Like he were some mastiff that had a chance against my lela lol. Lela is a good girl she is completly oblivious to his warryness and just wants to play but has listened well with me in terms of leaving the dog alone and not lunging towards him to play while we go for a walk. Today I tried something new. I brought lela out with me and fed lela treats the dog came up and growled at lela and shyed away. I threw a treat in his direction and contuied on with my dog. A few moments passed and the little dog took the treat and came foward but again with the growling. Lela this time decided she wanted to really play and be damned what i feel. She got up and pulled on the leash and I gave her a stern lay down lela and thankfully she did, the little dog sat there almost confused. I dont think she understood really why my dog was unable to come after him. This caused a curosity about him and he got to sniffin the air at her general direction. Then as almost as if lela knew we needed to get this dog to trust us, she rolled over on her back and whined! I was speechless! The dog came over really slow always with the growl at this point I wanted to retreat , I thought maybe I am making a mistake, then as soon as I was about to reel in Lela and call it a decent day, the layed down! He stopped growling and I was able to hand him a treat and he walk right past her.

Now the point to all this is as so, I really don't think that this little dog wanted to bite anyone I don't feel it in the little's guys nature for all that growling and comotion to be carrying on . But he is terrified and considering his circumstance prolly has lots of reasons not to trust anything. I feel that punishing a growl or forcing trust on a dog is just going to lead to disaster in cases like these. You just can't MAKE a dog trust you. Surviving a bite or attack and coming back again isn't showing the dog hey im tough and will stick this out with you, it just tells the dog next time ill have to go for the throat cause this threat is strong and dangeours. Scared dogs make bad choices based on their fears and the whole "confront" your fear head on method is not really th ebest method for most dogs.

I guess there is a lot of reasons a dog growls and discovering the reason behind it for me is most important before correction. I would not want to completely desensitize my dog to growling cause I know when shady stuff is happening outside cause of her. There were two kids in my backyard trying to drink beer , they were hiding from their dad they live two blocks away. Lela growled at the back door and wouldn't stop till I checked it out, I told them to get home and stop being stupid. Had lela been concerned about growling cause it would upset me she might not have bothered letting me know there was something afoot in the doggy force.

Like wise, she kept growling and scratch and my cupard a few days ago, i investigated and saw she had trapped a mouse in the whole of the cupboard.

These are just random examples of where her growl was USEFUL. Reason is because we tend to desensitize i ourselves to our dogs verbal cues. Whining and barking we can ignore, but when she growls now that gets immideate attention. Used for proper purposes such as shady people in your yard, locating a pest, or even expressing disgust in your reflection with a stupid hat on ( yes she growled at herself when she saw the hat) these are just those things I don't see a reason to be concerned about. Growling over possessions be it a toy or you is not something that should be tolerated, for the health and safety of you and the dog. It isn't healthy a dog feel that uptight about their stuff. I think mostly they feel if u take it they won't get it back, where as the trade system is great for that but I also think it help to play the drop and give game. I did this with lela just for training drop but it COULD work against resource guarding but I am not a trainer.

EDIT to say Narggle really slapped that puppy on the nose ( sort to speak)  I think that is spot on about this thread. I personally feel as I stated above its an issue of figuring out why they growled . I think more often then not a dog that is growling sooo much it is making you nervous then you have to do something.

Prime example is my kid was playing with the dog on tug of war. I don't usually like her playing this particular game cause lela really get sinto it. But as long as they both follow my rules ( yes both of them, she knows how told the rope and lela knows no mouths go in hands) if rules are broken play time is over. This is the only time lela "growls" to me its more of a gruffle but most people would just say she is growling. The first time this happened my kid freaked she is like growled at me! I said she sure did lets stop play time. Now I watch lela's maticulasly the next time I played rope. I tried and tried and tried to get her to do it again to see if there was something my daughter done to agitate her. Got not one gruffle. Then one day we were playing like normal and bam gruffle noise. Her ears, tail and body language all normal. I had her drop it she had the same stupid "throw it now" smile. she wasnt agitated or upset at all. 

So to keep my daughter's peace of mind when she gets so excited she starts to gruffle, they have to switch games. It isn't really a punishment but at the same time we are taking away the extra excitment that might lead her to growl playfully. On the other hand not much can be done when she starts to bark, when they play tag she barks and she just enjoys barking at her cause i think it makes my daughter giggle and run around faster.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I don't know whether it's pathetic or (not to sound mean) or amusing when a dog is charging the door, baring teeth, and you open the door a crack and they rush to the other side of the room leaving a small trail of urine behind them. A lot of it really IS show. Auz puts on a show at my back door when there are strangers standing outside like you'd think he was a rabid attack dog. If I let them in and welcome them, he prances around with a toy in his mouth and can barely contain his joy at making their aquaintance!!


Well new dogs here are kenneled in a 4 by 12 ft kennel run which alters their actions with the fight/flight program. Can you imagine the fear that a dog must feel to run/pee like that. I've experienced a few dogs that when kennel gates open they retreat to back of kennel scared stiff. I'm a SciFi fan, I sit in the front of kennel back to dog and read. Longest was 2 weeks with one dog that finally nudged my back and we started training next day. Usually just a couple days and all is good and no protection equipment needed for scared dogs. If there is doubt I do have a pair of mail-mesh gloves and leather gloves slipped on over those, cause I do like to be able to pet/stroke dogs while still in kennel. With 95% nothing is needed.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Well new dogs here are kenneled in a 4 by 12 ft kennel run which alters their actions with the fight/flight program. Can you imagine the fear that a dog must feel to run/pee like that. I've experienced a few dogs that when kennel gates open they retreat to back of kennel scared stiff. *I'm a SciFi fan, I sit in the front of kennel back to dog and read.* Longest was 2 weeks with one dog that finally nudged my back and we started training next day. Usually just a couple days and all is good and no protection equipment needed for scared dogs. If there is doubt I do have a pair of mail-mesh gloves and leather gloves slipped on over those, cause I do like to be able to pet/stroke dogs while still in kennel. With 95% nothing is needed.


I chatted on the phone with a friend and, within 15 minutes, had a terrified dog "sharing" my lunch


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Agreed, The dog better have a bona-fide reason for growling, pain/fear etc if not then Houston we have a problem and I will handle it as I see fit. . .
> 
> . . .Before you can address any long term situation you must address the short term situation of just getting in dog's kennel run. Not for the faint of heart.


 The problem with statements like that (representative of many posts and training advice, NOT picking on wvasko. . .his was just the easiest to quote ) is that a lot of people think this means "go in there with a 2 X 4 and show that dog a thing or two!". In fact when I read that, that's the first place my mind goes, and I know wvasko has said that he doesn't do things like that! I certainly don't think "oh, he just means to sit in front of the kennel reading a Sci-Fi book until the dog is accustomed to you". And if I were a person willing to do things like that to a dog, and looking for training advice, that's how I'd take the advice to "correct a growl". And that's how I see most people dealing with their dog growling, and that's what turns dogs violent. . .


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> It's close to the "slam" against 'treat trainers' (which in itself is an insult to the process, as if all those of us who use treats do is wave food in the dog's face - which is just NOT right...or training, something a lot of "old school" trainers don't get - you, JohnnyBandit, and Marsh are the few I've met who do - the ones in real life I meet just make me roll my eyes, have Wally do some commands and walk off). The "I don't want to always have to carry treats around!!11!1!!!" mentality totally forgetting that after a behavior is learned - you don't HAVE TO.


I'm not anti-treat (why would I be against something that works?), but there is a attidudinal split. I use treats to speed the learning process, but don't believe a dog should be exessively rewarded (even verbally) for doing what he's supposed to do. I don't get a party for getting myself to work on time, and I can't imagine getting kudos for giving up my seat on the bus to a pregnant lady. It is just what you do. No more; no less.

Now, the subject of responding to a growl is a complex one. If my (Golden Retriever) Rusty were to growl at me, the first response would be a fast trip to the emergency vet clinic. A growl from the leader of the clown posse would be so off-normal as to be worrisome in the extreme. There would have to be something drastically wrong for that to happen.

The onset of sexual maturity often makes a dog want to test limits and try out the new muscles. That would require a completely different strategy. Fearful/defensive dogs are a whole other bag o' worms. Mainly, one should have the ability to analyse the situation and understand what it is you are responding to. Having a plan is a good thing. My "lizard brain" has gotten me out of some bad stuff (and provided me with some excellent stories to tell), but it is generally a bad policy to put it in charge of one's day to day interactions.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> The problem with statements like that (representative of many posts and training advice, NOT picking on wvasko. . .his was just the easiest to quote ) is that a lot of people think this means "go in there with a 2 X 4 and show that dog a thing or two!". In fact when I read that, that's the first place my mind goes, and I know wvasko has said that he doesn't do things like that! I certainly don't think "oh, he just means to sit in front of the kennel reading a Sci-Fi book until the dog is accustomed to you". And if I were a person willing to do things like that to a dog, and looking for training advice, that's how I'd take the advice to "correct a growl". And that's how I see most people dealing with their dog growling, and that's what turns dogs violent. . .


Thank you for not picking on me my wife has that job covered and does a very good job of it. 

Suppose somebody online tells you to give one pop of lead to correct a dog. They're talking to somebody online who owns a dog that one lead pop could absolutely the dog back 6 months (or more) Let us go further if the trainer online says one lead pop is good then the amateur owner at home says to himself if one is good, five lead pops will be terrific. 

The very fact that people could read my reply and possibly think a 2 by 4 is what's needed when walking into a kennel is scary as hell. There are also some dogs that you pop a lead with a prong collar on that can absolutely turn violent if your not careful. I'm just sayin'...


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I'm not anti-treat (why would I be against something that works?), but there is a attidudinal split. I use treats to speed the learning process, but don't believe a dog should be exessively rewarded (even verbally) for doing what he's supposed to do. I don't get a party for getting myself to work on time, and I can't imagine getting kudos for giving up my seat on the bus to a pregnant lady. It is just what you do. No more; no less.
> 
> .


If someone hadn't taught you good manners and that it's harder for pregnant ladies to stand on the bus, would you necessarily know that it is what you do? How about if you're a little kid - would you know that? Assuming that your job is not your life, would you be as concerned about showing up on time if you didn't somewhat realize that your paycheck depends on that? (And I do think people are happier in their work if the boss tells them they are doing a good job, instead of just assuming they better. 
I suppose it is an attitudinal split. I don't naturally assume that going over a jump and getting a dumbbell (or the other behaviors I train) are going to be automatically intrinsically of value to my dog. I expect that the dog is going to do things that have proven to be valuable to them, and am not opposed to telling them (in a way meaningful to them) that they are doing a good job. Knowing that my doggies have never been in the school system, have never gone to church, read philosophy, etc. I'm not going to assume that they have a sense of morality (because it is the right thing) that an indoctrinated adult human will have. Many rotten things have been done to dogs because people just somehow assumed they knew what was "right" and "wrong."
I'm going to assume that like most beings, they do what works for them. If I am a good trainer, and make the behaviors valuable, eventually they may develop a work ethic which looks like they are working for my approval (because that approval has been paired with more concrete and immediate rewards. I've worked with dogs who were so into the shaping game that they didn't even want food until they'd found out exactly where we were going with this. THEN, when the puzzle was solved, they'd get their treats.



wvasko said:


> Thank you for not picking on me my wife has that job covered and does a very good job of it.
> 
> Suppose somebody online tells you to give one pop of lead to correct a dog. They're talking to somebody online who owns a dog that one lead pop could absolutely the dog back 6 months (or more) Let us go further if the trainer online says one lead pop is good then the amateur owner at home says to himself if one is good, five lead pops will be terrific.
> 
> The very fact that people could read my reply and possibly think a 2 by 4 is what's needed when walking into a kennel is scary as hell. There are also some dogs that you pop a lead with a prong collar on that can absolutely turn violent if your not careful. I'm just sayin'...


So . . . who has given dangerous training advice in this thread, and what was that advice?


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

One day the neighbours of a client of mine called me. Wanted to see if I could walk their dog occasionally if they wanted to go out. Warned me that their dog had been to a behaviourist and was on a strict NILF policy for dominance aggression (the behaviourists term) and that the last person, who the dog KNEW, wasn't allowed in the front door by said dog. Great. 
I had met Oakley once or twice through the fence, he was a big rottie/GSD ish mix about 110 lbs. Seemed nice enough. So I said I would give it a try. They picked me up and dropped me at their house with the key and then waited outside as the dog never reacted when they were home. They have a small vestibule at the front door, where the leashes etc are kept and then a metal baby gate keeping the dog away from the front door by about two feet. I open the door to find a VERY defensive dog on the other side of the baby gate. Some serious growling and eye contact. Better than silent I say....
So, I just stood there for a minute, not making eye contact...deciding whether to leave or not. Not. I glanced quickly at him and quietly but firmly said "Oakley, SIT". He sat. Didn't stop the noise at all, but he DID sit. Hmmmm. Picked the leash and halti up and said "go for a walk??" Boom. Different dog. He allowed me to put his halti on and leash and off we went. 

I housesat him a couple of times a year for about three years. He was an awesome dog. One day his owner called me and said he had terrified the nanny, causing her to get up on the kitchen island until they came home, him circling the island the whole time. This was the OLD Oakley, not the one that had been rehabbed so well....I said take him to the vet asap. Turns out he was hemorrhaging from splenic hemangioma and was in pain and not to live long. I felt very bad for the nanny but knew that this episode of growling and aggression was about something more than him just being a jerk. KWIM?

And that is why I will always step back a bit and say WHY is this happening??? Rather than a knee jerk reaction or taking personal offense. To clarify I do NOT mean don't protect yourself if something does occur...but most things are preventable if you read the dog well.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> The problem with statements like that (representative of many posts and training advice, NOT picking on wvasko. . .his was just the easiest to quote ) is that a lot of people think this means "go in there with a 2 X 4 and show that dog a thing or two!". In fact when I read that, that's the first place my mind goes, and I know wvasko has said that he doesn't do things like that! I certainly don't think "oh, he just means to sit in front of the kennel reading a Sci-Fi book until the dog is accustomed to you". And if I were a person willing to do things like that to a dog, and looking for training advice, that's how I'd take the advice to "correct a growl". And that's how I see most people dealing with their dog growling, and that's what turns dogs violent. . .


As Willowy said above.

It's not a question of dangerous advice given it's the possible misinterpretation of any advice given. 



> So . . . who has given dangerous training advice in this thread, and what was that advice?


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I'm not anti-treat (why would I be against something that works?), but there is a attidudinal split. I use treats to speed the learning process, but don't believe a dog should be exessively rewarded (even verbally) for doing what he's supposed to do. I don't get a party for getting myself to work on time, and I can't imagine getting kudos for giving up my seat on the bus to a pregnant lady. It is just what you do. No more; no less.


Well, the pregnant lady will probably say thank you, no? To me that's what praise/treats/pat on the side, etc are. Now I know, why should I 'thank' the dog for doing what he should? 

I just find it's something I do. It keeps him motivated and eager (who knows what I might 'thank' him for next!) and it definitely puts him on radar mode with my every move. It keeps his confidence up (so he doesn't wonder "was it right, or did I do something wrong?") and that's my #1 concern with Wally. Keeping him excited about 'working' (not that he's a working dog in the real sense) and confident. 

He probably doesn't NEED it, but as long as those brown eyes are wide with anticipation and the "ooh, maybe THIS time!" I think it seems to be the 'right' thing for him 

Sure, it doesn't happen every time, but it doesn't cost me much to throw a "good boy" (which, of course, has been taught as a verbal reward marker, so it has almost the same power as a click) when he's still on his mat when I come into the room, or when he stays out of the kitchen on his own, etc.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Cracker said:


> And that is why I will always step back a bit and say WHY is this happening??? Rather than a knee jerk reaction or taking personal offense. To clarify I do NOT mean don't protect yourself if something does occur...but most things are preventable if you read the dog well.


If we can stand another instructive anecdote: it took me 20 minutes to "own" a man-aggressive boxer bitch.

I went to visit an old friend for a hunting trip, and he and his wife gave me the couch in the den to sleep on. The woman had brought 3 very fat mutt bitches and a young Boxer bitch into the relationship. The Boxer didn't like men. The den was the dogs' room. The boxer growled at me every time I moved. Great.

Several times, I noticed my friend try to pet the Boxer, and each time she made herself small and ran the baseboards like a mouse to get away from him. Okay, I thought, she's not aggressive; just fearful. My buddy was not helping things by being 6'8" tall and having a booming voice. When he stands in a doorway, he fills it up pretty good.

To make an excruciatingly long story merely long, I made a huge fuss over the other girls--especially the senior bitch--and shared my beef jerky sticks with the fat little tail waggers. I completely ignored the Boxer. Within 20 minutes, the Boxer couldn't stand being ignored and came over for her share of the booty. The next morning at breakfast, I had what looked like a 65 lb., Boxer-shaped growth attached to my leg. They thought there was some kind of black magic involved, but it is just reading the dog.

The human brain is capable of rational thought, future planning, and analyzing past events. If we use those capabilities, we will train the dogs more than they will train us--but they will most certainly continue to train us.



KBLover said:


> Well, the pregnant lady will probably say thank you, no? To me that's what praise/treats/pat on the side, etc are.


It also goes back to early training. When I was a kid, my father would have grabbed me by the collar and jerked me to my feet if I didn't get up to offer my seat to the pregnant lady--or any other kind. If Dad wasn't around some stranger would have done it (it was a different world). So now I recognize it as the way be, but there is always that invisible hand that'll jerk me to my feet if I don't offer. I now have complete freedom of choice, but there's only one choice to make. It's good to learn the "why to" of things, but we all do plenty of things to avoid the "or else".


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> As Willowy said above.
> 
> It's not a question of dangerous advice given it's the possible misinterpretation of any advice given.


I'm not certain how suggesting that the owners not do something rash, but form a training/behavior plan and work on it at a time when both they and the dog are feeling less anxious (and get professional help if they can't handle that by themselves) could be misinterpreted in a dangerous way. Now, if one states that what must be done is "not for the faint of heart" I can see how that might be misinterpreted.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Pawz...Wvasko is trying very nicely to let it be known that he is concerned about how his suggestions may be mistaken and misconstrued. He is greatly experienced and his training style is fair but involves all four quads of OC. He does not want to offer suggestions that may be OVERDONE by an inexperienced person. Give him a break for stating that and acting RESPONSIBLY in that manner and let it go.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

KBLover said:


> It's close to the "slam" against 'treat trainers' (which in itself is an insult to the process, as if all those of us who use treats do is wave food in the dog's face - which is just NOT right...or training, something a lot of "old school" trainers don't get - you, JohnnyBandit, and Marsh are the few I've met who do - the ones in real life I meet just make me roll my eyes, have Wally do some commands and walk off). The "I don't want to always have to carry treats around!!11!1!!!" mentality totally forgetting that after a behavior is learned - you don't HAVE TO.
> 
> I figured you were exaggerating, but it's often said similarly in reality. Heck, that "Dogfather" commerical (you know, the 'traditional' trainer that has a "secret system" LOLWUT) that I get SICK of seeing uses the other one "Fattening treat training". Hello. Small pieces? Healthy treats? *rolls eyes*
> 
> While I disagree that being 'anti-treat' is better than using treats (hence my also non-agreement with the albeit fun statement Marsh uses, which led to my signature lol fun thread that was), I also know that treats aren't the only reinforcer in the world and not the only one I use - but in my mind, why eliminate options? I want MORE ways to get inside of a dog's mind and start rearranging the furniture, not less. JMO.



Any trainer that discounts the fact that treats work whether they choose to use them or not, is being hard headed or one dimensional. Some very good trainers use them, some don't. The there are a bunch of "trainers", "handlers" and owners out there that are treat dependent. 

Some also seem lost in the concept that there is a difference between are reward and a bribe. 

I am fairly anti clicker. Some folks like them and that is fine. But I am not about to walk around with a clicker. There is nothing that can be accomplished with a clicker, that I cannot accomplish with my mouth. 

I am all about using what works.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> It also goes back to early training. When I was a kid, my father would have grabbed me by the collar and jerked me to my feet if I didn't get up to offer my seat to the pregnant lady--or any other kind. If Dad wasn't around some stranger would have done it (it was a different world). So now I recognize it as the way be, but there is always that invisible hand that'll jerk me to my feet if I don't offer. I now have complete freedom of choice, but there's only one choice to make. It's good to learn the "why to" of things, but we all do plenty of things to avoid the "or else".



Make sense - I was definitely raised to find out why and to NOT do things "just because". Teachers, even her (raised by a single mom), I could question, as long as I'm respectful, the method/reasoning of why something is done. Needless to say, elementary school was something of an...adventure...but in the upper levels, a questioning mindset was welcomed, even encouraged, so I managed to survive and not be a 3rd grade drop out lol 

I was probably raised with a lot of R+/P- methods. Never got taken by the collar or spanked, etc. Probably by shaping in a sense as well as I wasn't frequently told what to do. 

She would also say, "never take something good for granted, even if you deserved it, because you didn't have to get it." That probably colors my view as well.



JohnnyBandit said:


> I am fairly anti clicker. Some folks like them and that is fine. But I am not about to walk around with a clicker. There is nothing that can be accomplished with a clicker, that I cannot accomplish with my mouth.


I agree - heck, I have a verbal marker for when I don't have a clicker or forgot to get it or just to train without it, just to keep Wally's mind open and aware of multiple ways we can communicate. I don't want him like being lost because he didn't get the click if nothing else.

In the process of teaching a hand signal marker for times we might be working and he's looking at me but I don't want to talk for whatever reason. 

Like you said, whatever works, and I'm trying to make more options be able to work in more situations. Options - I want 'em.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

I already mentioned this story to in another thread but I think it serves some merit here. My MIL came over for a bit and was in my daughter's room and she was helping her make her bed with some new bed sheets she bought her. Lela came in and like usual when there is a bed to be made she is there to explore it. All I heard from downstairs was GET OFF THAT BED DOG BAD. I sighed and was about to go upstairs to get the dog when i heard my daughter say "NO THAT IS WRONG WE DONT DO IT LIKE THAT" I decided at this point to observe and creeped upstairs to see what was going on. Apperently my MIL had yanked her by the collar and tried to force her down. My daughter then said as quoted then I watched her look around for a seecond and my MIL was like WELL YOU CAN JUST LET THE DAMN DOG ON THE BED WHILE I AM MAKING IT . My daughter calmly found a bag of pretzels in her school bag and put in her hand where the dog didn't see it and said lela get off the bed girl , and like she was taught lela got off that bad sat right down in front of my daughter, and my daughter gave her a treat. She then said now go to mommy, lela went to come find me but found me spying at the top of the stairs and just kinda stared at me like well there she is now what lol.

My point here is it was very clear the dog responded to her usual form of communication, but when she was yanked and yelled at she just sat there stubborn as a mule and looked at my MIL like she was fool. 

So as to the argument of weather a dog doesn't need to be rewarded or praised for things he should "know" to do. I disagree, a dog dosent HAVE to do anything you say frankly the dog is a dog and if he wanted to frolick in the woods and roll in mudd he could if he felt like it and nothing short of PHYSICALLY trying to stop him would change his mind. HOWEVER with training and communication the dog will behave in the manor that suits you. I not only don't see the harm in rewarding those good choices but I think it is essential they feel and know that with good choices made good things happen.

Take my daughter for example. She knows that getting good grades in school is required to pass into the next grade and she knows if she dosent do well I am going to be disappointed. This didnt stop her from having issues paying attention in class and starting to bring home bad grades on her spelling tests despite all the work we do on them.I became frustrated and started taking away privilages such as tv, games, staying up late on the weekend. All to no avail in seeing improvement. I finally decided to take some clues from training my dog, that is POSITIVE REINFORCMENT. Instead of getting mad at my daughter for doing wrong, I told her if she brought me home a better grade I would take her out to eat at a nice place just her and me. I got a B on her next test.



What this proves is that negative punishment dosen't always work. The "or else" method means very little if YOU DONT CARE. Simply put my daughter could easily sit in her room and just read taking her toys aways just wasnt a big deal to her and it wasn't teaching her anything. Yelling at her sure as crap is not going to do anything but hurt my throat. 

I just don't see the point in trying to find what you can do that will "scare" or "intimidate" someone or something into doing the right thing when it is so much easier to encourage them to WANT to do it. I much rather my dog WANT to sit and stay then think "if I dont i might get hit or rolled over or scolded or crated or goodness knows what else he might do if i dont lay down" basically it may work for you but it dosent mean it is healthy to do the dog to live in a state of "or else" the dog should be comfortable and safe and not concerned over every little move he makes. 



> I don't get a party for getting myself to work on time, and I can't imagine getting kudos for giving up my seat on the bus to a pregnant lady. It is just what you do. No more; no less.


please don't take offense to this cause this actually a LOT of peoples way of thinking. But to me this is kinda unfair to the dog in the sence you assume he knows what you want all the time. Dogs know simple commands when they are taught to them but it dosent mean that they understand WHY you want them to sit. They have no earthly idea you want him to sit down because he happens to be in the way while your vacuuming, he just knows you told him to sit for some reason. You KNOW when and why you have to do something but as a human are given a CHOICE to do so. ( your reasoning behind your choices are your own based on how you were raised or your own personal feelings )but the dog has no choice, so to expect something of him with no reason behind it other then NOT to get scolded or punished in whatever way to me just is teaching " If you don't listen bad things happen" that to me dosen't feel like a good way to live life. 



> Thank you for not picking on me my wife has that job covered and does a very good job of it.


that is just pitiful and made me lol


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Make sense - I was definitely raised to find out why and to NOT do things "just because". Teachers, even her (raised by a single mom), I could question, as long as I'm respectful, the method/reasoning of why something is done. Needless to say, elementary school was something of an...adventure...but in the upper levels, a questioning mindset was welcomed, even encouraged, so I managed to survive and not be a 3rd grade drop out lol
> 
> I was probably raised with a lot of R+/P- methods. Never got taken by the collar or spanked, etc. Probably by shaping in a sense as well as I wasn't frequently told what to do.
> 
> ...


Which is why I say why bother with a clicker. Waste of time IMO.......

I teach hand signals at the same time as voice commands. Another thing I do is with some commands, I will have multiple hand signals for.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> Which is why I say why bother with a clicker. Waste of time IMO.......
> 
> I teach hand signals at the same time as voice commands. Another thing I do is with some commands, I will have multiple hand signals for.


I wont say the clicker is waste of time , I bought a clicker used it and loved it. She responded fantastic to it. The problem was I was a terrible clicker trainer in the aspect I never remembered it lol. She would have worked well with it but I was already working with hand singles which at the time I didn't know I was doing it so I had to actually adjust and make sure I wasn't confusing her with my hands. There are so many ways to teach a dog to do what you want but regardless of how you do it I still feel the best methods are always going to include praise and encouragement over punishment and lack of affection. One person I know but am not friends with an acquaintance if you will, she emotionally punishes the dog if she does something wrong, she will ignore it and when the dog tries to get affection she shuns her always tells her what a bad dog she is . This teaches the dog nothing except when he does bad things the human is very unfriendly and dislikes me I hope I dont mess up again. I just don't see any other way to treat a dog then with love , patience, and compassion. I have only ever scolded lela a handful of times and I always feel horrid for it, she just simply dosent understand why I am upset with her. It is just easier emotionally to reward her for the good then scold the bad.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I bothered with a clicker because it forced me to look for increments of behavior more closely. Dog training is largely a function of mechanical skill, and if a clicker can help you improve that, why not bother?


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Which is why I say why bother with a clicker. Waste of time IMO.......
> 
> I teach hand signals at the same time as voice commands. Another thing I do is with some commands, I will have multiple hand signals for.


I don't teach commands. I do frequently have multiple cues for the same behaviors (especially in Freestyle - helps with choreography. In obedience or rally, I can cue the dog with my hand, my voice, my body or my eyes) For a lot of things, a voice is as effective as a clicker. For instance, if I am showing my dog what I want - modeling, luring, etc. there is nothing I need to be precise about. If I am shaping, voice simply doesn't get the same precision or response. I shape a lot with what I do. My students can use their voice or a click as a marker (though in the beginning, clicker is quicker). But I can let it be their choice. For what I want, I really can't. Of course, once I've put the behavior on cue, I no longer need the precision of the clicker. My clicker is a scalpel. My voice is a very nice butter knife. Much of the time the butter knife is fine.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> I no longer need the precision of the clicker. My clicker is a scalpel. My voice is a very nice butter knife. Much of the time the butter knife is fine.


I like how that is put nods


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I bothered with a clicker because it forced me to look for increments of behavior more closely. Dog training is largely a function of mechanical skill, and if a clicker can help you improve that, why not bother?


Where's that "like" button when you need it!


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

amavanna said:


> > I don't get a party for getting myself to work on time, and I can't imagine getting kudos for giving up my seat on the bus to a pregnant lady. It is just what you do. No more; no less.
> 
> 
> please don't take offense to this cause this actually a LOT of peoples way of thinking. But to me *this is kinda unfair to the dog in the sence you assume he knows what you want all the time*. Dogs know simple commands when they are taught to them but it dosent mean that they understand WHY you want them to sit. They have no earthly idea you want him to sit down because he happens to be in the way while your vacuuming, he just knows you told him to sit for some reason.


It's not unfair because nothing is assumed. The dog is taught, trained, and proofed to a command. Nothing is expected of the dog until that happens. It's always best if the dog _wants_ to obey, but he has to obey regardless of his feelings on the matter under consideration.

He gets housing, food, entertainment, and medical as part of the deal. Nothing very much is asked of him. Not a bad gig, IMO.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Marsh Muppet said:


> It's not unfair because nothing is assumed. The dog is taught, trained, and proofed to a command. Nothing is expected of the dog until that happens. It's always best if the dog _wants_ to obey, but he has to obey regardless of his feelings on the matter under consideration.
> 
> He gets housing, food, entertainment, and medical as part of the deal. Nothing very much is asked of him. Not a bad gig, IMO.


Do you actually think that dogs really "get" gratitude in that way? Shoot, frequently children don't even get that (ask the parent of most any teenager)


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

Maybe to me it is different type of outlook on how a person feels a relationship between a human and a dog should have. I personally want my dog to love it here and really feel that when she does something I like that it makes her life really fun too. I don't just use food either she loves playing with toys and i use toy praise often as well. But with the way you explain it, you don't even want to throw in a "good dog" for the sake of letting your dog know you know what I am happy with our relationship and content. Even dogs show each other when they are happy with each other. Just seems like if the dog is going to be furniture you never praise and reward for good things and only want it to do as its told, I mean why not get a fish or bird that dosnt need to learn anything or do anything there for dosent need the praise for just breathing. I am going to assume you really ARENT like that and do praise your dog when its needed cause to me it seems no one would really not tell their dog they are good dog at least some of time lol.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i bother with a clicker because each type of marker is a marker within itself. when i switch the type of marker, that means we're moving on to something else. One type of marker per context. it allows her to anticipate.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> i bother with a clicker because each type of marker is a marker within itself. when i switch the type of marker, that means we're moving on to something else. One type of marker per context. it allows her to anticipate.


So are u saying u use it sometimes and choose not other times for various activities? I always forgot to take it on our walks and my daughter never used she was always having lela do random tricks without the clicker so I didn't want to confuse her but if it isn't confusing I could see how switch markers from say a clicker to say a toy that squeaks or just using a verbal cue word to switch a specific activity from say obedience to agility, that would work, but for me I don't get to do all that fun stuff like agility and weight pulling so when I switch from clicker to cue words it dosent mean anything to her other then there is no click this time, which again was concerned it would get confusing to her. Thoughts?


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

amavanna said:


> So are u saying u use it sometimes and choose not other times for various activities? I always forgot to take it on our walks and my daughter never used she was always having lela do random tricks without the clicker so I didn't want to confuse her but if it isn't confusing I could see how switch markers from say a clicker to say a toy that squeaks or just using a verbal cue word to switch a specific activity from say obedience to agility, that would work, but for me I don't get to do all that fun stuff like agility and weight pulling so when I switch from clicker to cue words it dosent mean anything to her other then there is no click this time, which again was concerned it would get confusing to her. Thoughts?


it's a little more complicated than that and involves a paced progression and build up in training. clicker means "we're doing something new". contextual cues for her housework and hand signals outside. but if im in the hall and i hand signal for the leash(combined contextual and hand cue)..she knows what's coming next. we're also working on visual/gaze directional cues where i look and she follows my gaze.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> Do you actually think that dogs really "get" gratitude in that way?


I said it's a good gig in _my_ opinion. The dog would probably concur, but he has no basis for comparison. And he's an inveterate liar anyway.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

is it just me or are most of the really hardcore "correctors" here men?

(*blows raspberries* :wink


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> It's not unfair because nothing is assumed. The dog is taught, trained, and proofed to a command. Nothing is expected of the dog until that happens. It's always best if the dog _wants_ to obey, but he has to obey regardless of his feelings on the matter under consideration.


I think this is where you and I split.

For me, Wally's emotional state is a big bit of information. If he's fearful or very uncertain, I'm not going to get obedience, I'll get appeasement.

I don't want appeasement, so I have to make sure I keep his morale up - otherwise, he'll slow down (calming signal as much as the uncertainty) and I'm not getting learning or compliance because he's in appeasement "please don't be mad" mode.

Forcing compliance at this point won't teach him a whole lot of anything, except "Yep, I was right to be anxious, and now I really need to lay it on."


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

amavanna said:


> So are u saying u use it sometimes and choose not other times for various activities? I always forgot to take it on our walks and my daughter never used she was always having lela do random tricks without the clicker so I didn't want to confuse her but if it isn't confusing I could see how switch markers from say a clicker to say a toy that squeaks or just using a verbal cue word to switch a specific activity from say obedience to agility, that would work, but for me I don't get to do all that fun stuff like agility and weight pulling so when I switch from clicker to cue words it dosent mean anything to her other then there is no click this time, which again was concerned it would get confusing to her. Thoughts?


I'm not sure I understand quite what was meant in the post you are asking about. I generally use a clicker to teach a new behavior - especially if I am capturing a behavior (clicking when it happens) or shaping a behavior (clicking small pieces that will get me to the eventual behavior I am wanting) or free shaping (seeing just where we can go - I have one dog who frequently suggests much more imaginative behaviors than I can come up with). I am, admittedly, a free-shaping junkie. Probably comes from many years of the discipline of obedience. I am now an old lady and can be silly and just enjoy how wonderfully creative and intelligent my dogs really are. Once the dog really understands what behavior is being paid, we can start adding a cue (or cues - which are not the same thing as a marker, but tells the dog that the bar is open to possibly earn the marker and the reward.) Once I have tested my cue and know that the dog recognizes it, I'm likely to use a verbal marker most of the time.

I encourage (don't absolutely insist) that my students learn the clicker. Not just because their dogs catch on quicker (they do) but also because I think it improves the human's observation skills and timing. Because that sound isn't as much a part of you as your voice, I think you come to notice more whether or not it is well-timed. Most students, with just a bit of practice, are clicking pretty effectively in a few hours. And because we talk all the time (and most of it isn't supposed to mean anything to our dogs) in the beginning of a behavior, that click is much more salient to the dog.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I'm not sure I understand quite what was meant in the post you are asking about. I generally use a clicker to teach a new behavior - especially if I am capturing a behavior (clicking when it happens) or shaping a behavior (clicking small pieces that will get me to the eventual behavior I am wanting) or free shaping (seeing just where we can go - I have one dog who frequently suggests much more imaginative behaviors than I can come up with). I am, admittedly, a free-shaping junkie. Probably comes from many years of the discipline of obedience. I am now an old lady and can be silly and just enjoy how wonderfully creative and intelligent my dogs really are. Once the dog really understands what behavior is being paid, we can start adding a cue (or cues - which are not the same thing as a marker, but tells the dog that the bar is open to possibly earn the marker and the reward.) Once I have tested my cue and know that the dog recognizes it, I'm likely to use a verbal marker most of the time.



Ah, another shaping fanatic! Granted, you are probably far better at it than I am.

I find I can shape either way, though I don't do anything as intricate as freestyle, but I often use my verbal marker during shaping (especially if I see something that needs to be done better, I'll go into an impromptu shaping session, and clicker may not be handy where ever that happens to be.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> is it just me or are most of the really hardcore "correctors" here men?
> 
> (*blows raspberries* :wink



LOL 

I wonder if there's any correlation between training style and gender?



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> we're also working on visual/gaze directional cues where i look and she follows my gaze.



I've tried doing that with Wally - probably not doing it right. It's something we need to get back to working on. *adds it to the list*


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

I do think woman tend to lean more on the side of emotions then men when it comes to anything. Same principle when my kid cries I will almost always break , my husband won't lol. I WANT my dog to feel engulfed in love and happiness and whatever I can do to make that show I do it. If it means an extra treat for doing a trick right she has had a hard time with or even something as simple as not begging for food during dinner, I take these things as the dog really trying to do her best to please me, she knows its what I want and tries hard to do it, my kid and husband don't give me 10% of the effort my dog does lol. I try to respond to that with good praise and a lot of love. It doesn't mean I ignore troubling behavior for example her chewing. I do scold the humans more then the dog if things are left foolishly on the floor, but if she is jumping on the couch to get to something on the table next to it, then yea a stern no not for lela and redirection to a different toy is normally all that is necessary, and she almost always sucks up after she gets told no for something. Lela is very sensitive and sulks over the smallest things, so strong verbal punishments or timeouts or what have you would I think just be working in the wrong direction for her unique personality. But in general I just think all dogs respond better to "good dog" and pat on the head over "bad dog" and a strong punishment. Mostly because I feel whatever the dog did he prolly forgot what it was half way through a person's ranting

. I have seen it in lela's face when I scolded her for chewing toilet paper. I caught her in the act and said OMG LELA NO NOT TOILET PAPER!!! She just sat there and looked at the toilet paper and whined then looked at me like what did i do that was wrong? She knows I didn't like it but you can just tell she dosen't get why. I try to exercise common sense before I scold my dog. I mean the door should have been closed and the tp not within reach and more toys should have been at her availability while she is upstairs. Half the time my dog does something I don't like it is generally not her fault but mine for not paying attention to my dogs surroundings and not giving her proper outlets for her chewing. It is my job to do these things so what right do I have to upset that she chose an item she liked if I wasn't willing to give her one I wanted her to have. 

Same method goes for messes in the house. Lela is 100% potty trained. She not only goes to the door but she wall stand up by the book shelf and even knock off the leash. I never taught her this she just does this. Me and my husband are on a walking schedule so we know whos turn it is too take her out. If she messes in the house my husband will try to scold her for it, like she should have held it, I am like did she go to the door, well yea, did she whine and jump at the book case for the leash, well yea, then how the heck you going to mad she did everything short of clasp the leash on and open the door and walk herself! You may train your dog to a lot of things but sometimes people need to be less concerned if their dog is trained and more concerned if they are just not paying the right attention to a dogs emotional needs.

More people are so concerned weather or not the dog "behaves as they wish" and less on weather or not they are making it harder on the dog to behave that way. This who topic was on the basis of growling and if it should be tolerated but all the people says its completely unacceptable I just don't feel are looking at what the dog's purpose for growling is and just to suit their needs sooner have the dog not growl. A growl in some cases could save your life if it were a warning to something that was a danger to you. I also think its unfair to not play with a dog just cause they get the playful grumbles. With my daughter I prefer they switch games because it makes her comfortable to do so, for me I love it when she ets the gruffles cause she gets really into the game and she starts to get silly and doing dances and random crap I tought her to do just so I throw it. It is isn't a threatening thing at all. I think alot of people taking playful gruffles and turn them into growls cause they just don't see the difference.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

KBLover said:


> LOL
> 
> I wonder if there's any correlation between training style and gender?


Well, dog training used to be predominately male, and there are a fair number of Yank and Thank ladies. There are a lot more females training these days than men, though I can think of some notable exceptions in the R+ realm - Bob Bailey, Ken Ramirez, Steve White, Morten Egtvedt, Ted Turner. Granted, some of those are more known with their work with non-canines.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> I'm not sure I understand quite what was meant in the post you are asking about.


yea sorry my thoughts are melding cause ive been posting a lot lolol. I was actually refering to zim she said she switched markers to switch acitivites and I was just trying to figure out exactly what cue or markers she was using for what kind of activity. The way she does it seems hard I feel I would confuse myself before the dog got confused lol. But in a way I guess I do alot of those things already. I can point somewhere and she knows where i want her to go. When I give her her kong she knows to go to her bed or she wont get it yet, she knows to sit before i put her bowl down and i dont even have to say anything to her anymore she just gets it, but I think it just a fact of time and that I just always stuck with the same gesture and word everytime. The clicker was great for training fun tricks like sit pretty play dead and such but for regular training like stay and scooch and off it just was never readily available to use it when needed.

free style training i have seen some dogs do the most COOLEST tricks with this style of training and even though its somewhat slower im told in a way its less frustrating and stressful cause the dog is kinda teaching himself in a way i guess. I wish I were more on the ball to catch things I like, but I do do some forms of it I guess like if I drop food on the floor and she dosent get it ill give her twice the amount that fell, but if she goes for it i ignore it, she actually almost never goes for food until i tell her to now but i have also worked on it during our training sessions so she knows its a behavior I want , I guess I kinda just "test " it when something "falls " on the floor. And reward or ignore depending on how she handled it.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

amavanna said:


> yea sorry my thoughts are melding cause ive been posting a lot lolol. I was actually refering to zim she said she switched markers to switch acitivites and I was just trying to figure out exactly what cue or markers she was using for what kind of activity. The way she does it seems hard I feel I would confuse myself before the dog got confused lol. But in a way I guess I do alot of those things already. I can point somewhere and she knows where i want her to go. When I give her her kong she knows to go to her bed or she wont get it yet, she knows to sit before i put her bowl down and i dont even have to say anything to her anymore she just gets it, but I think it just a fact of time and that I just always stuck with the same gesture and word everytime. The clicker was great for training fun tricks like sit pretty play dead and such but for regular training like stay and scooch and off it just was never readily available to use it when needed.
> 
> free style training i have seen some dogs do the most COOLEST tricks with this style of training and even though its somewhat slower im told in a way its less frustrating and stressful cause the dog is kinda teaching himself in a way i guess. I wish I were more on the ball to catch things I like, but I do do some forms of it I guess like if I drop food on the floor and she dosent get it ill give her twice the amount that fell, but if she goes for it i ignore it, she actually almost never goes for food until i tell her to now but i have also worked on it during our training sessions so she knows its a behavior I want , I guess I kinda just "test " it when something "falls " on the floor. And reward or ignore depending on how she handled it.


Yes, I wasn't certain exactly what she meant either, but since she expanded on it, I think I do. No need to apologize. I think you are thinking of "free shaping" which does NOT take longer. Freestyle is a sport. Done at the highest levels it looks like this: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crmD_B8ERzk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi4qvMmWJWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqbVbPvlDoM

Of course, it doesn't look like that when I do it. I'm neither coordinated or athletic. But it is a heck of a lot of fun, and very challenging.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

ah yes i meant free shaping freestyle i watch all the time on you tube and i have several favorites I LOVE watching the skits people put together I just imagine the time and effort into it and I commend owner and dog for having a relationship strong enough to have fun together in such a way. I will look more into free shaping since it seems my original information given is a bit off.

Side note it just happens that the ones you linked have been in my favorites for a long time now lol I LOVE how he works with his dog , he even gives the dog the upper hand in most of the skits lol.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi4qvMmWJWs


This one might be my favorite ever (though I'll have to check those other two)

I just love the part where the dog kicks the dirt over him and then jumps around like he won the whole world! 

It just looks fun (I know doing it has to be!) though I know it's got to be a ton of work!


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

yes! I LOVE that part ! I love the gladiator one though cause it just seemed so coordinated and required more real interaction between the two it was amazingly done


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Pawz...Wvasko is trying very nicely to let it be known that he is concerned about how his suggestions may be mistaken and misconstrued. He is greatly experienced and his training style is fair but involves all four quads of OC. He does not want to offer suggestions that may be OVERDONE by an inexperienced person. Give him a break for stating that and acting RESPONSIBLY in that manner and let it go.


Cracker, Thank you so much, It must be my lack of education, just not having the proper grammatical/writing skills needed to get my point across. Maybe once a month I will put the informational/warning below out.

*"wvasko" Negative reinforcement trainer that uses Positive punishment and Negative Reinforcement. While having balance I still am what I am.* This is absolutely no surprise to older members as when joining DF I added it to the mix immediately so all would know.

That being said I will now leave this thread so everybody else can enjoy without distractions.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> It's not unfair because nothing is assumed. The dog is taught, trained, and proofed to a command. Nothing is expected of the dog until that happens. It's always best if the dog _wants_ to obey, *but he has to obey regardless of his feelings on the matter under consideration.*
> 
> He gets housing, food, entertainment, and medical as part of the deal. Nothing very much is asked of him. Not a bad gig, IMO.


I wonder, but do you think you might change or keep this philosophy if you didn't have a happy-go-lucky Golden, but instead had a fearful or anxious dog that would shut down completely or go over threshold to the point of not being able to learn at all when stressed? When training Basil, a dog with several types of anxiety, some of which very severe, his feelings play an extremely significant role. In fact, I'm currently enrolled in an agility class with him that totally revolves around his feelings (Agility for reactive dogs). If I didn't consider his feelings while training, I would never get anything accomplished at all. And trust me, I've tried everything. There have been times that no matter how valuable the reward nor how strict the correction, Basil would just lay down facing away from me, refusing to move until his stress levels resolved and he was able to think again. Or he would collapse into a yowling, screaming panic attack, completely oblivious of my presence. Because in these situations, he's literally unable to think or learn until he's more comfortable and his brain starts working again.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

this thread has morphed a few times since I posted. 

Just want to say I am with Redyre on this.. with my dogs, prevention is 9/10ths of the cure. 

I also work much like WVasko these days. Lately I have been doing something a little different than clicker and food, but the process is close to the same and the results are there.. so far.. we will see how it progresses with this puppy. 

WVasko is more likely to hit a person with a 2X4 who abuses a dog than to suggest anyone hit the dog. Fact is, I never see much direct advice on fixing a problem from his corner because he does not want someone to go off on a dog.. and he has indicated he has seen just this. Using all 4 quadrants of learning theory does not mean you abuse the dog. 

I still believe in prevention being 9/10ths of the cure. However, if someone presents you with a training project you may have to fix what is there and what is there may not have been handled with a prevention program.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> I don't teach commands. I do frequently have multiple cues for the same behaviors (especially in Freestyle - helps with choreography. In obedience or rally, I can cue the dog with my hand, my voice, my body or my eyes) For a lot of things, a voice is as effective as a clicker. For instance, if I am showing my dog what I want - modeling, luring, etc. there is nothing I need to be precise about. If I am shaping, voice simply doesn't get the same precision or response. I shape a lot with what I do. My students can use their voice or a click as a marker (though in the beginning, clicker is quicker). But I can let it be their choice. For what I want, I really can't. Of course, once I've put the behavior on cue, I no longer need the precision of the clicker. My clicker is a scalpel. My voice is a very nice butter knife. Much of the time the butter knife is fine.


My hand-eye coordination is tons better than my voice-eye coordination. So I opt for a clicker because it works better for me. (I _knew_ there had to be a silver lining to the cloud of my childhood spent playing video games!  ) "Good" functions as a marker word AND a keep going signal for Tag; if I say "Good" he brightens up considerably. It's pretty cute, and gets him lots of cheers at classes because he's SO sparky when he hears the "G" word. (I rarely, if ever, use treats at agility anymore, let alone a clicker). JMO, as I've seen people get it done without a clicker as well.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> It's not unfair because nothing is assumed. The dog is taught, trained, and proofed to a command. Nothing is expected of the dog until that happens. It's always best if the dog _wants_ to obey, but he has to obey regardless of his feelings on the matter under consideration.
> 
> He gets housing, food, entertainment, and medical as part of the deal. Nothing very much is asked of him. Not a bad gig, IMO.


Amen, marshmuppet! My sentiments exactly! I care for mine, food, water, shelter, a bad a** place to live, enrichment etc... & of course in return I ask for their servitude when I need them. If they do not obey, them they lose something important to them. 

Example: when Josie, the puppy refuses to do something that she knows how to do, she loses privlages such as freedom (not getting to run around & play with everyone else) or no treat or attention (only the good dogs get those things, of they ar not good they do not get those things, plain & simple) of course I make sure they know what is expected of them before I practice this.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Cracker, Thank you so much, It must be my lack of education, just not having the proper grammatical/writing skills needed to get my point across. Maybe once a month I will put the informational/warning below out.
> 
> *"wvasko" Negative reinforcement trainer that uses Positive punishment and Negative Reinforcement. While having balance I still am what I am.* This is absolutely no surprise to older members as when joining DF I added it to the mix immediately so all would know.
> 
> That being said I will now leave this thread so everybody else can enjoy without distractions.


Not sure why you would need to leave the thread for people to enjoy it. I did take your response to me as slightly snarky, but perhaps I did misunderstand your point. Apologies if that is so. One of the difficulties in coming to a new forum is that you don't know the dynamics of the individuals and the writing style of the posters, and may misread intent. What looks sarcastic to the reader could seem like humor to the poster. I should probably lurk more and post less. But that's against my nature.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> This one might be my favorite ever (though I'll have to check those other two)
> 
> I just love the part where the dog kicks the dirt over him and then jumps around like he won the whole world!
> 
> It just looks fun (I know doing it has to be!) though I know it's got to be a ton of work!


That video single-handedly turned me into PR, because I *knew* I couldn't get enthusiasm and that kind of performance out of my dogs using compulsion only.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

When Wally refuses a direction, that's a cue to me to reteach it and further condition it to where refusal isn't even a consideration. 

To me, it means it's not proofed and that's my fault, not his.

It may also mean that the environment is suggesting something else to him and as such I need to analyze the environment. For example, if the door is open and he knows that's a cue to go downstairs into the basement, but I tell him something else - he's conflicted. Answer isn't to punish Wally, it's to close the door, remove the conflicting signal. Suddenly, he complies _on his own_ because he still remembers my direction.

If I want him to stay put and watch the kettle (bark when it whistles) while I go do something else, and he wants to follow me, to me the answer isn't to correct him, it's to show him again what I want him to do. He knows what to do, but the showing again conditions stronger so that behavior can overcome the stimulus of me moving. The sound/sight of the kettle going on stove is to be top priority as it were. Or if I open the oven door to make lunch for the both of us - same thing, stay there and bark when the oven timer beeps.

I take refusal not as "he disobeying me" but as "I need to proof/strengthen this behavior so that it withstands the distracting stimulus" and/or "What in the environment might be sending a conflicting signal?"


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> That video single-handedly turned me into PR, because I *knew* I couldn't get enthusiasm and that kind of performance out of my dogs using compulsion only.


I know some people who teach freestyle with old methods (and their dogs frequently disengage or leave). I don't think you could get the really top performances with a less positive approach. (not to mention, the dogs would not have the freedom to suggest the things they think would work better. (I swear, Ray really choreographs our routines. I am pathetic at it.) Most of the better freestylers seem to use clicker. Some use a voice marker. I know Tina Humphries (in the UK) uses SATS.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Nargle said:


> I wonder, but do you think you might change or keep this philosophy if you didn't have a happy-go-lucky Golden, but instead had a fearful or anxious dog that would shut down completely or go over threshold to the point of not being able to learn at all when stressed? When training Basil, a dog with several types of anxiety, some of which very severe, his feelings play an extremely significant role. In fact, I'm currently enrolled in an agility class with him that totally revolves around his feelings (Agility for reactive dogs). If I didn't consider his feelings while training, I would never get anything accomplished at all. And trust me, I've tried everything. There have been times that no matter how valuable the reward nor how strict the correction, Basil would just lay down facing away from me, refusing to move until his stress levels resolved and he was able to think again. Or he would collapse into a yowling, screaming panic attack, completely oblivious of my presence. Because in these situations, he's literally unable to think or learn until he's more comfortable and his brain starts working again.


I totally agree with this! We have a reactive dog, who, when beyond his threshold, is generally not able to listen or perform even the simplest command. At least, in the beginning, before we started working on the issue, that was how he was. 

Originally, my bf was of the opinion that, even if he's reacting, he should be able to "sit" and "look" because we've taught, trained, and proofed those commands. In fact, he thought Harper was being a "butthead" and didn't realize what being reactive meant. After getting tons of excellent advice here, we've been able to work with him, AND, bf now realizes Harper reacts because he is fearful.

And, as I said, in the beginning stages of dealing with this, trying to get his attention when he's well beyond his threshold is pointless. We have to walk away, calm down, and then he will listen and do as he's asked.

And, hey, to put it into a human perspective, as some of you might know, I'm a teacher. And, I work in an area that is wrought with crime, parents who are in jail, or on drugs, and kids that take care of themselves, as well as their parents. A kid who is going through a particularly bad day, or has experienced a trying event can have a very hard time functioning, even to do the simplest of tasks....


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

amavanna said:


> yes! I LOVE that part ! I love the gladiator one though cause it just seemed so coordinated and required more real interaction between the two it was amazingly done


Just watched it - I agree, that's amazing. 

Like you said, the coordination and timing between the two of them is just brilliant.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

KBLover said:


> Just watched it - I agree, that's amazing.
> 
> Like you said, the coordination and timing between the two of them is just brilliant.


And recently I've found an even better use for our freestyle moves (nowhere near Attilla and Fly or Carolyn and Rookie or any of the greats). I have a dog recovering from a very badly broken leg and we are just starting physical therapy. I was asked to do things with him like spins, bows, getting him to raise the injured leg as high as possible. It's so nice to have all these behaviors trained and on cue. Weaving between my legs makes him use the leg more than spinning does. Also to have him understand walking through a PVC ladder and getting on and off a platform. We never quite know when our doggie silliness will have a practical use.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> or no treat or attention (only the good dogs get those things, of they ar not good they do not get those things, plain & simple)


Far be it from me to say how you handle a pup, everyone here loves their dogs or we wouldn't be here. But to me that just seems so emotionally wrong. I can understand a slight scolding when caught in the act like "no" or "leave it" or "bad" but again only when they are caught in the act. But giving your dog the cold shoulder and silent treatment? That just dosen't feel like it would even register to the dog.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

amavanna said:


> Far be it from me to say how you handle a pup, everyone here loves their dogs or we wouldn't be here. But to me that just seems so emotionally wrong. I can understand a slight scolding when caught in the act like "no" or "leave it" or "bad" but again only when they are caught in the act. But giving your dog the cold shoulder and silent treatment? That just dosen't feel like it would even register to the dog.


I think our human assumptions frequently get in the way of really seeing the dog. Ideas like that the dog knows he should be grateful because we take care of him, or that he necessarily knows when he is being "bad" and why he is being punished.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I think that if you give the correction even right before the growl (you can see changes in ears, eyes etc) the dog will be perfectly aware of what the correction was for...>>

Growling *is* normal dog behavior and the laws of learning suggest otherwise (of the bolded). >>>>

curbside Im unsure how this does not follow the "Laws of learning" ? without me getting into the moral issues of correction, If a dog is corrected for aggression and stops being aggressive it is following the "laws of learning" It may not always be the most effective/preferred method but to say it can not work because it does not follow the laws of learning is stretching things


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

I give dogs a lot of credit as far as understanding certain things. I do think dogs are aware we have affection to them, I do think dogs know when we are upset or angery or sad. I feel they may even be aware sometimes when you are trying to help them when they are scared or hurt. But to assume a dog understands why their owner would ignore them without the ability to simply ask "hey man what the heck did i do to make you not love me anymore" seems a bit of a reach.

I mean my dog is such a baby she can't stand being in trouble, the simple act of me telling her no firmly sends her in the next room to my husband with her tail tucked and crying. To lengthen that by ignoring her and not showing her affection, she just simply wouldn't understand that at all and frankly I couldn't do that to my dog. I am the biggest dog lover on the planet, but she is still a dog and just dosent get some things and I am not gonna punish her that harshly. Bottom line I didn't get a dog so I could "expect" so much out of it and then get angry when he disappoints me. But that is just me.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> When Wally refuses a direction, that's a cue to me to reteach it and further condition it to where refusal isn't even a consideration.
> 
> To me, it means it's not proofed and that's my fault, not his.
> 
> ...


My dogs have such different personalities it amazes me. If I ask my dogs to do something they already know how to do (such as come inside from the yard when you're called), Dude does it like "you're the boss...*shrug*). Tag is like "I will! And while I'm at it, why don't I bring you your slippers?" 
Auz is the closest thing I have to a dog who will blow off commands--he's not under trained, but his personality (or whatever you'd call it) is more or less of the "why?" type. The best thing about him is, even though I get annoyed with him when he decides NOT to do something, if I really, really need him to do it he does it in a flash. No matter what, _dogs always have a choice whether to comply or not_. I don't know if it's his personality, temperament, breed, or whatever, but he doesn't seem to have the same sense of biddability as my other two do. (Not to say he's a complete jerk 24/7, but I hope this makes some sense.)



Pawzk9 said:


> I know some people who teach freestyle with old methods (and their dogs frequently disengage or leave). I don't think you could get the really top performances with a less positive approach. (not to mention, the dogs would not have the freedom to suggest the things they think would work better. (I swear, Ray really choreographs our routines. I am pathetic at it.) Most of the better freestylers seem to use clicker. Some use a voice marker. I know Tina Humphries (in the UK) uses SATS.


Dude would frequently disengage with me when he was being taught with compulsion and praise only. He's much more bright eyed these days 
OTOH, If I give Auz a heartfelt thanks for doing something wonderful, he seems to litereally bask in it.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> I think that if you give the correction even right before the growl (you can see changes in ears, eyes etc) the dog will be perfectly aware of what the correction was for...>>
> 
> Growling *is* normal dog behavior and the laws of learning suggest otherwise (of the bolded). >>>>
> 
> curbside Im unsure how this does not follow the "Laws of learning" ? without me getting into the moral issues of correction, If a dog is corrected for aggression and stops being aggressive it is following the "laws of learning" It may not always be the most effective/preferred method but to say it can not work because it does not follow the laws of learning is stretching things


You can stop the growl. But you can't change the reason for the growl simply by telling the animal to stop it.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

"bad" and why he is being punished.>>>> 

If the punishment is timely, meaningful and consistent then i fail to see why he would not pick up on why he received the punishment?

It is no different from a purely learning standpoint from rewarding good behavior. the reward must be meaningful, timely, and constant for the lightbulb to go on.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

honestly I forget this thread was even about growling anymore, it seemed to start leaning more towards general differences in how people correct their dog for unwanted behaviors. In which I am surprised at the vast differences some people have. I will say that lack of affection is one I have heard of and always couldn't stand , I mean if I were a dog and I did something bad and you just ignored me, I would be like the heck with you then and go on with my bad doggy self. The problem with that mentality is I am human, a dog is unconditional love and no matter how much you ignore them they will still try to understand why they are being disregarded even if they never figure it out.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

You can stop the growl. But you can't change the reason for the growl simply by telling the animal to stop it.>>>

true, but the aggression can be stopped. again Im getting a little philisophical and not advocating punishing aggression. I do agree that teaching alternate/incompatible behavior is more effective.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> "bad" and why he is being punished.>>>>
> 
> If the punishment is timely, meaningful and consistent then i fail to see why he would not pick up on why he received the punishment?
> 
> It is no different from a purely learning standpoint from rewarding good behavior. the reward must be meaningful, timely, and constant for the lightbulb to go on.


Well, actually it is. I don't have to be as careful about turning the lightbulb "on" as I do about what happens when I turn it off. For instance, dogs who are corrected for growling or acting "badly" towards another dog or a human may connect the unpleasantness with dogs or people approaching them. After all, there are many things present, and that makes as much sense ("every time a dog approaches, I get popped") as ('every time I growl I get popped"). I'm sure everyone is also aware that frequently when we reinforce for correct behavior, the anticedent isn't really what we think it is.



jiml said:


> You can stop the growl. But you can't change the reason for the growl simply by telling the animal to stop it.>>>
> 
> true, but the aggression can be stopped. again Im getting a little philisophical and not advocating punishing aggression. I do agree that teaching alternate/incompatible behavior is more effective.


The aggression can be stopped unless the dog is under more pressure than he can handle and still be "obedient" The same goes for alternate/incompatible behaviors. That's why I would rather look at what is behind the growl, and try to change that experience for the dog. Approaching human = scary vs approaching human = opportunity to earn reward. Note that I am going to want to know the situations that trigger a response, what he is looking like when he is THINKING about going off, and interrupt the pattern before the actual meltdown, so I am not rewarding the growling/barking/lunging/whatever.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Approaching human = scary vs approaching human = opportunity to earn reward>>>>>>

agree I think this used w alternate/incompatible behaviors as management is prob the most used.


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> You can stop the growl. But you can't change the reason for the growl simply by telling the animal to stop it.


Depending on where the dogs's growl to bite threshold is, it seems like you "can" stop the dog. If your dogs growl threshold is 1 and the bite threshold is 100, it might _seem_ like you can stop the growling (and avoiding a bite) in it's tracks. I've seen some dogs who's growl threshold is 1 and bite threshold is 2, and (like WVasko pointed out) they'll redirect. Not all dogs will take to being told to stop the growl, kwim?


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

amavanna said:


> I give dogs a lot of credit as far as understanding certain things. I do think dogs are aware we have affection to them, I do think dogs know when we are upset or angery or sad.


I agree, I know my older dog Izze knows when I'm angry upset, sad & most importantly, disappointed. Josie, the young one is learning that quickly & catches on to stuff quickly, not as stubborn as Izze was.



> I feel they may even be aware sometimes when you are trying to help them when they are scared or hurt. But to assume a dog understands why their owner would ignore them without the ability to simply ask "hey man what the heck did i do to make you not love me anymore" seems a bit of a reach.


I don't nessessarily agree with that, I have headstrong, tough, ballsy cattle dogs that usually take a bit firmer handling then an average dog. Of course there are exceptions (such as Josie, but we think she might be mixed with BC or something, which are softer dogs anyways) & I have NP expressing my distain for a job crappily done, esp when she knows what she is to do.



> I mean my dog is such a baby she can't stand being in trouble, the simple act of me telling her no firmly sends her in the next room to my husband with her tail tucked and crying. To lengthen that by ignoring her and not showing her affection, she just simply wouldn't understand that at all and frankly I couldn't do that to my dog. I am the biggest dog lover on the planet, but she is still a dog and just dosent get some things and I am not gonna punish her that harshly. Bottom line I didn't get a dog so I could "expect" so much out of it and then get angry when he disappoints me. But that is just me.


I kind of pick & choose my battles on this, if Izze doesn't do something important that she knows she is supposed to do (I.e. stay out of the pastures, no chasing animals unless told otherwise... I.e. the geanea fowl when they get close to the houses & the cows when we need them to move away) then she'd better well do it or I will make sure she knows how pissed off I'am & how it disappoints me. I mean this is a working ranch & it is not all fun & games here, there is some real dangerous stuff/things here that require obedience.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> I don't nessessarily agree with that, I have headstrong, tough, ballsy cattle dogs that usually take a bit firmer handling then an average dog. Of course there are exceptions (such as Josie, but we think she might be mixed with BC or something, which are softer dogs anyways) & I have NP expressing my distain for a job crappily done, esp when she knows what she is to do.


I think the question is more - does the dog understand the *exact* reason why the job is crappily or that at the end, you weren't pleased and express that?

If the dog knows why the job is not to your satisfaction (i.e. you correct, etc, at the time the error occurred), that's one thing and I agree the dog can figure that out (the whole point of good timing in delivering consequences, be they rewards or punishments). 

If at the end, you see the job isn't done right - I don't know if the dog can know exactly why (i.e. what was/were the error(s) he made?). If the dog DOES know the errors, then my thought would be "why did the dog choose that behavior/chain instead of the correct steps?" and then working on that. Would that be an incorrect process in your line of work/breed of dogs?



LazyGRanch713 said:


> My dogs have such different personalities it amazes me. If I ask my dogs to do something they already know how to do (such as come inside from the yard when you're called), Dude does it like "you're the boss...*shrug*). Tag is like "I will! And while I'm at it, why don't I bring you your slippers?"
> Auz is the closest thing I have to a dog who will blow off commands--he's not under trained, but his personality (or whatever you'd call it) is more or less of the "why?" type. The best thing about him is, even though I get annoyed with him when he decides NOT to do something, if I really, really need him to do it he does it in a flash. No matter what, _dogs always have a choice whether to comply or not_. I don't know if it's his personality, temperament, breed, or whatever, but he doesn't seem to have the same sense of biddability as my other two do. (Not to say he's a complete jerk 24/7, but I hope this makes some sense.)



I'm liking Auz more and more that I hear about him 

That questioning nature, the "why?" mentality - seems like he's a thinker - especially if he can detect when you really need him to do it and like yesterday and he'll do it.

Sounds like a really smart dog. I like smart dogs!


----------



## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I'm liking Auz more and more that I hear about him
> 
> That questioning nature, the "why?" mentality - seems like he's a thinker - especially if he can detect when you really need him to do it and like yesterday and he'll do it.
> 
> Sounds like a really smart dog. I like smart dogs!


He IS smart...too smart for his own good, and sometimes makes him look stupid. (I've called him worse).


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> He IS smart...too smart for his own good, and sometimes makes him look stupid. (I've called him worse).



LOL 

Yeah, sometimes I get that too. He'll think one thing, I say another, he does what he thinks and then is like "wait, what did you say?" 

So now, I do it on purpose sometimes  I think I got that trick from Elana.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Nargle said:


> I wonder, but do you think you might change or keep this philosophy if you didn't have a happy-go-lucky Golden, but instead had a fearful or anxious dog that would shut down completely or go over threshold to the point of not being able to learn at all when stressed?


Yeah, of course. No matter what your preferred training style, the duration, pace, intensity, and complexity of the training is mostly dictated by the dog. The program has to be tailored to fit the dog or it will fail at some point. You can bring out a dog's natural drive, focus, and attention span, but you have to work within his limitations. And your own.

No amount of force or treats will turn a blind Pug into a working retriever.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

jiml said:


> "bad" and why he is being punished.>>>>
> 
> If the punishment is timely, meaningful and consistent then i fail to see why he would not pick up on why he received the punishment?
> 
> It is no different from a purely learning standpoint from rewarding good behavior. the reward must be meaningful, timely, and constant for the lightbulb to go on.


'

You are stopping the REACTION instead of REMOVING THE REASON for the reaction (be it fear, resource gaurding, pain, ect) this WILL cause the dog to SHUT DOWN or to ESCALATE. you MUST find and address the CAUSE
and work on it. 

if it is fear/anxiety (the MAIN reason for dog and human aggression) the dog must be desensititized, sometimes the fear is assocaited with underlying conditions (low thyroid, tick born illness, glaucoma ect) and those reason must be resolved to remove the cause of the fear and desensitization to recondition the dogs reactions. Resource gaurding is a form of ANXIETY (the dog is scared of losing a resource such as food, it's sleeping area or even it's human) and becomes aggressive because of it, therefore the fear must be addressed and the dogs reaction reconditioned.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Depending on where the dogs's growl to bite threshold is, it seems like you "can" stop the dog. If your dogs growl threshold is 1 and the bite threshold is 100, it might _seem_ like you can stop the growling (and avoiding a bite) in it's tracks. I've seen some dogs who's growl threshold is 1 and bite threshold is 2, and (like WVasko pointed out) they'll redirect. Not all dogs will take to being told to stop the growl, kwim?


The problem I see with this, though, is that you can't tell if your dog is at a 2 or a 99 if you train him not to communicate with you.



Marsh Muppet said:


> Yeah, of course. No matter what your preferred training style, the duration, pace, intensity, and complexity of the training is mostly dictated by the dog. The program has to be tailored to fit the dog or it will fail at some point. You can bring out a dog's natural drive, focus, and attention span, but you have to work within his limitations. And your own.
> 
> No amount of force or treats will turn a blind Pug into a working retriever.


That's good to hear. It's just when people say things like "He must obey, no matter how he feels about it," I start getting skeptical.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

jiml said:


> You can stop the growl. But you can't change the reason for the growl simply by telling the animal to stop it.>>>
> 
> true, but the aggression can be stopped. again Im getting a little philisophical and not advocating punishing aggression. I do agree that teaching alternate/incompatible behavior is more effective.


No, the aggression can only be REPRESSED by using your technique (shut down) it will come back and when it does it's without WARNING and is usually very explosive. the ONLY way to address the aggression reliably is to address the cause f the aggression and recondition the dog to tolerate by using a positive association to the (previously) feared poersn/animal/object and teaching the dog it doesn't have to be in control, that the HUMAN will protect it from harm and injury (trust building).


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> No, the aggression can only be REPRESSED by using your technique (shut down) it will come back and when it does it's without WARNING and is usually very explosive. the ONLY way to address the aggression reliably is to address the cause f the aggression and recondition the dog to tolerate by using a positive association to the (previously) feared poersn/animal/object and teaching the dog it doesn't have to be in control, that the HUMAN will protect it from harm and injury (trust building).


This. I'm sorry, but I am not opposed to Jonas growling because in the past he WOULD escalate to a bite very easily. He is not your every day dog growling over a bone.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I am not going to go back and quote posts. 

Men and women train differently. EVEN if they share the same philosophies, they will train differently. This is important to understand both as a dog owner and for those that are training professional. 

Bottom line methods don't matter as much as some people would like to believe. 

The important things are....

Have fun ( This means BOTH you and the DOG ) IF you are not in the mood, don't train. If you are enjoying yourself, the dog will respond. 
You never want to train flat, frustrated, or cranky.

Be FAIR

Be consistent. This goes for everything you train. IF you train tight, always train tight. IF you train loose, always train loose. 

Patience!!!!!

Don't be afraid to push yourself and your dog when the time is right. 

Don't waste time..... Once the dog has a step, a progression, a que, don't grind it into the ground. take the next step and move on.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Men and women train differently. EVEN if they share the same philosophies, they will train differently. This is important to understand both as a dog owner and for those that are training professional.


I'm gonna start a new thread now 




JohnnyBandit said:


> The important things are....
> 
> Have fun ( This means BOTH you and the DOG ) IF you are not in the mood, don't train. If you are enjoying yourself, the dog will respond.
> You never want to train flat, frustrated, or cranky.
> ...


Well said.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am not going to go back and quote posts.
> 
> Men and women train differently. EVEN if they share the same philosophies, they will train differently. This is important to understand both as a dog owner and for those that are training professional.
> 
> ...


I think philosophy matters more than methods. It's the philosophy that leads you to choose method. but I do think method matters. I also think some men train a lot differently than other men, and some women train a lot differently from other women. (Some the the LEAST nurturing trainers I've met have been female).


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

KBLover said:


> If the dog knows why the job is not to your satisfaction (i.e. you correct, etc, at the time the error occurred), that's one thing and I agree the dog can figure that out (the whole point of good timing in delivering consequences, be they rewards or punishments).


Oh I make sure she knows exactly what was wrong about the job she did & why it was crappy. Then when she corrects herself she gets praise & the knowledge that I'm pleased with her just makes here giddy lol.[/QUOTE]

Also someone on here said (maybe it was a different thread but it just popped into my head & I had to comment on it) that VS (its nme or the dog) someone said that 'she had gone a long way from spraying air horns at dogs (it wasn't air horn they were air cans). My question is why is this bad? I have put ascat mats in front of trash cans & on counters to deture dogs from garbage or counter surfing.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

this WILL cause the dog to SHUT DOWN or to ESCALATE. you MUST find and address the CAUSE>>>


Im only partially disagreeing with you. 

Some dogs will "SHUT DOWN" or "ESCALATE" some will go into avoidence and if they are a dog with a high threashhold will never reach it. I have seen many dogs rehabbed with an incompatible behavior then reconditioned. Here is an instance where I sometimes disagree w the so called PP approach to dealing with aggression. By it self it can be a long long process for SOME dogs. Adding aversives can speed the process if done carefully. And time is a factor that causes dogs to be put to sleep.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Oh I make sure she knows exactly what was wrong about the job she did & why it was crappy. Then when she corrects herself she gets praise & the knowledge that I'm pleased with her just makes here giddy lol.


Also someone on here said (maybe it was a different thread but it just popped into my head & I had to comment on it) that VS (its nme or the dog) someone said that 'she had gone a long way from spraying air horns at dogs (it wasn't air horn they were air cans). My question is why is this bad? I have put ascat mats in front of trash cans & on counters to deture dogs from garbage or counter surfing.[/QUOTE]

That would have been me saying that. I saw an episode where she used an air HORN - not spray air - which smells funny, probably contains harmful chemicals and I wouldn't want blasted in MY face either. On the label of the can next to my computer, there is a long list of warnings about mis-using it. Do I REALLY want to spray that stuff near my dog? To me, that seems pretty aversive and more than a little dangerous. It could really freak some dogs out, and create a fear issue. But even for the bravest dog it would be unpleasant. And the air horn (which she used in the episode I watched) would be painfully loud for a dog's sensitive hearing. Again, it could create fear issues.

I would rather teach the dog to do what I would like for them to do than punish them for what they don't know. (And I know Victoria Stilwell has made great strides in changing towards more humane and positive reinforcement based training - while there are trainers I admire a lot more, I salute her for having a forum to get that information out, and using it.) Dogs are such willing and intuitive learners that they'll do their best (and probably figure out what we want) with even the most primitive, uninformative and unkind training methods. Because I respect how willing they are to try, I try to give them information in the most precise and pleasant way I know.



jiml said:


> this WILL cause the dog to SHUT DOWN or to ESCALATE. you MUST find and address the CAUSE>>>
> 
> Here is an instance where I sometimes disagree w the so called PP approach to dealing with aggression. By it self it can be a long long process for SOME dogs. Adding aversives can speed the process if done carefully. And time is a factor that causes dogs to be put to sleep.


PP? Does that mean Positive Punishment? If it means "purely positive" that really doesn't exist. And if I am desensitizing/counter conditioning, I'm not using operant conditioning anyway (does the name Pavlov ring a bell?)


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

"purely positive" that really doesn't exist. hence the "so called" because I have seen people on both sides that do think it exists. 


I am desensitizing/counter conditioning, I'm not using operant conditioning anyway (does the name Pavlov ring a bell?)>>>>

You may have just yelled COWS because I have no idea why this statement was in your post?????????


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> "purely positive" that really doesn't exist. hence the "so called" because I have seen people on both sides that do think it exists.
> 
> 
> I am desensitizing/counter conditioning, I'm not using operant conditioning anyway (does the name Pavlov ring a bell?)>>>>
> ...


Huh. made sense to me. You mentioned "reconditioning" dogs. I assumed, since we recondition couches that you meant counterconditioning. But I could be wrong. If we are talking about counterconditioning, then there is no sense in talking about "purely positive" or positive reinforcement, or positive punishment or any other part of operant conditioning. Because you are (at that point) working with classical conditioning? Does that make more sense?


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

another thought. Is not teaching incompatible behaviors itself counter conditioning? Ex. As some may know I am somewhat of an advocate of correctly used Ecollars in some instances. I have seen it used with handler aggressive dogs in which the "safe zone" was around the handler. If the handler is safe the aggression ceases because being safe by the handler is incompatible with fear and aggression towards the handler.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> another thought. Is not teaching incompatible behaviors itself counter conditioning? Ex. As some may know I am somewhat of an advocate of correctly used Ecollars in some instances. I have seen it used with handler aggressive dogs in which the "safe zone" was around the handler. If the handler is safe the aggression ceases because being safe by the handler is incompatible with fear and aggression towards the handler.


Teaching incompatible behaviors is not counterconditioning. However, while I don't use ecollars (and therefore can't intelligently discuss their "proper" use) I would think that what you are describing is more counterconditioning than incompatible behavior. The dog is gleaning to the handler not because that's what he's been taught but because it's the only place he feels "safe" anymore. That would be more an emotional response than a behavior. Therefore more likely classical conditioning than operant.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> Also someone on here said (maybe it was a different thread but it just popped into my head & I had to comment on it) that VS (its nme or the dog) someone said that 'she had gone a long way from spraying air horns at dogs (it wasn't air horn they were air cans). My question is why is this bad? I have put ascat mats in front of trash cans & on counters to deture dogs from garbage or counter surfing.


It's better, imo, to teach the dog what you want him to do (like wait outside the kitchen door or sit in front of the counter) than to just scare him off. I just believe in teaching what you want, conditioning that behavior strongly, and not just showing what you don't want. Maybe I'm just a "soft guy", but I don't want to use aversive methods so much in the learning phase.



jiml said:


> another thought. Is not teaching incompatible behaviors itself counter conditioning? Ex. As some may know I am somewhat of an advocate of correctly used Ecollars in some instances. I have seen it used with handler aggressive dogs in which the "safe zone" was around the handler. If the handler is safe the aggression ceases because being safe by the handler is incompatible with fear and aggression towards the handler.



I don't think so, imo. Incompatible behaviors, to me, would fall under operant conditioning. Like when Wally was fearful, I wanted him to sit close to me if he got scared, not try to bolt away. He had to *choose* to sit and that choice had to overcome his emotional desire to get away. That's him making a (very difficult) operant choice. I had to reward that choice by moving away from what scared him. That would be R+ (or maybe some weird form of R-, depending on Wally's view of the situation).

Counterconditioning was me actually removing the emotion of fear from the stimulus. That's where Pawz's Pavlov comment comes from. 

This situation (in your example) is working on the emotions of the dog (fear is not a choice). That's classical conditioning (also called counterconditioning or desensitization). Once the fear is removed, the aggression disappears because the fear was the cause of the aggression.

If I wanted to condition that bell on Pavolv's dog to get a fear response, I would have to countercondition it since the bell is currently a predictor of food.

Likewise if I wanted Wally to not be scared of people, I had to countercondition it because unknown people predicted to him something scary might happen. I had to remove that - and no operant choice is going to do that because fear isn't a choice, it's an emotion. The behavior he does once he feels the fear IS a choice.

Or if for some reason I wanted a click to be a negative marker now. I would have to countercondition it because right now the click is predictor of a reward, I have to make it a predictor of a punishment.

Working the behavior is operant, working the emotion is counterconditioning.

To me, the rub with aggression is - is the aggressive behavior an operant choice by the dog (i.e. the dog rationally interprets the situation and chooses an aggressive behavior), or a behavior in response to an underlying emotion (fear, conditioned aggression, etc)? The answer will determine which course will likely be best.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> another thought. Is not teaching incompatible behaviors itself counter conditioning? Ex. As some may know I am somewhat of an advocate of correctly used Ecollars in some instances. I have seen it used with handler aggressive dogs in which the "safe zone" was around the handler. If the handler is safe the aggression ceases because being safe by the handler is incompatible with fear and aggression towards the handler.


The more I think about this - my description of what it is would stand, but I'd also be wondering what the handler had been doing to cause the fear and aggression in the first place. Then I would be thinking it is more than a little sad that you'd have to make the rest of the dog's environment scarier than that to make them want to hand with the handler.


----------



## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

we are straying a bit but I would think that their is a bit of we are all correct going on. for instance classical conditioning is going on when its as simple as we see a dog we give a treat. However operant conditioning is occurring in games such as McDermit's "look at that" and an incompatible behavior is certainly being taught in CAT and BAT along with ecollar training for reactivity which is very similar to other training - operate at a distance reward the dog for proper behavior however a very mild stim is added if the dog starts to react and continued until the dog turns away or stops reacting (as your backing out of the dogs uncomfortable range) slowly close the distance w proper behavior.- simplified a bit of course.

The more I think about this - my description of what it is would stand, but I'd also be wondering what the handler had been doing to cause the fear and aggression in the first place. Then I would be thinking it is more than a little sad that you'd have to make the rest of the dog's environment scarier than that to make them want to hand with the handler.>>>

of course there is more to it than I explained but am not getting into now. However this goes to my argument of many tools. You may want to not use such a tool 99.9% of the time. However it is often effective if done correctly and can be a bit faster. Im not saying faster is better only that time is sometimes a factor in real life.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> we are straying a bit but I would think that their is a bit of we are all correct going on. for instance classical conditioning is going on when its as simple as we see a dog we give a treat. However operant conditioning is occurring in games such as McDermit's "look at that" and an incompatible behavior is certainly being taught in CAT and BAT along with ecollar training for reactivity which is very similar to other training - operate at a distance reward the dog for proper behavior however a very mild stim is added if the dog starts to react and continued until the dog turns away or stops reacting (as your backing out of the dogs uncomfortable range) slowly close the distance w proper behavior.- simplified a bit of course.
> 
> The more I think about this - my description of what it is would stand, but I'd also be wondering what the handler had been doing to cause the fear and aggression in the first place. Then I would be thinking it is more than a little sad that you'd have to make the rest of the dog's environment scarier than that to make them want to hand with the handler.>>>
> 
> of course there is more to it than I explained but am not getting into now. However this goes to my argument of many tools. You may want to not use such a tool 99.9% of the time. However it is often effective if done correctly and can be a bit faster. Im not saying faster is better only that time is sometimes a factor in real life.


I'd agree that there's uaually a bit of classical conditioning in most operant conditioning, and a bit of operant conditioning in most classical conditioning. After all, both deal with changing behavior. As Bob Bailey is fond of saying, "Pavlov's always on your shoulder."
While operant conditioning is definitely happening in LAT,generally, it's most effective component is that it changes the emotions surrounding "scary stuff" in a classical conditioning way. Behavior changes, but the main reason it changes is because you've changed the emotional landscape So I think the most powerful part of it is WHY behavior changes, not that I've taught a new behavior. When I am thinking about teaching incompatible behaviors, I'm thinking of trained behaviors, not new emotional responses. And training behaviors without changing the emotional response is a band-aid when you are dealing with fear and aggressive responses. CAT seems to me to mostly just be flooding.


----------



## amavanna (Nov 20, 2010)

> While operant conditioning is definitely happening in LAT,generally, it's most effective component is that it changes the emotions surrounding "scary stuff" in a classical conditioning way. Behavior changes, but the main reason it changes is because you've changed the emotional landscape So I think the most powerful part of it is WHY behavior changes, not that I've taught a new behavior. When I am thinking about teaching incompatible behaviors, I'm thinking of trained behaviors, not new emotional responses. And training behaviors without changing the emotional response is a band-aid when you are dealing with fear and aggressive responses. CAT seems to me to mostly just be flooding.


So when I read this I hear if you are trying to correct a behavior just to convenience yourself and use methods that may make the behavior stop suddenly or be corrected faster doesn't mean that you have fixed or corrected the emotional reasoning behind the behavior therefor the dog is still going to be in a sense of distress and fear leaving the dog unpredictable in those situations where the behavior is being a problem . IF that is what you are saying I totally agree.

Taking a growling as a main example since its the main topic, if you correct growling with things such as e collars for said example you may teach the dog growling is wrong, but you have not changed the fact that what is the issue is he is only growling when someone raises there voice loud and you havent shown him loud voices don't mean a threat ( this is just example) so he is still tormented by the of loud voices but no if he growls at it he will get hurt or be put in a discomfort which honestly to me makes the whole situation worse, cause now he is on edge for the yelling on edge because he knows he cant growl and anything could set him off at the point and a bite COULD occur. If the fear of loud voices itself with desensitization had be executed then no e collar or correction for the growl would even be an issue cause you would have taken the element of what caused the growl away.


----------

