# Please give opinions on this breeder (or suggest one)!!



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I will be purchasing a German shepherd dog (my first dog!) from Starke Pfotens, and I have read the sticky on what to look for in a breeder, and I do not see any red flags going up. Could one of you experts give me some opinion on their dogs? I am in love with Jutta right now, she's a beauty. They do not have hip or elbow problems and the breeders are willing to buy back dogs with congenital diseases. 
Website: http://www.starkepfoten.com/

If there are any other reputable German shepherd breeders you know of, please give your suggestions  I am looking for working lines, or, at the least, short-haired GSDs. I've taken a look at Waldhimmel's but her dogs are rather plush-coated for me. 
And, of course, we have a budget. My parents are not willing to buy any puppy who's initial cost goes over $3,000 

Thanks!


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## craven.44 (Sep 10, 2008)

I am not an expert, but I would suggest a visit to their facility. Check out where the dogs are kept, and meet the parents. Talk to the breeder. A reputable breeder will have no problem showing their facility and answering any questions you might have. I am sure someone else here will be better able to help you. Good luck!!

Also, if it does not work out, I would suggest a rescue. Check out www.AGSRA.com and see what is available in your area. Once again, good luck!!


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## raven (Nov 10, 2008)

we too are getting another GSD, I really like Joyce Burdette's puppies at Misty Ridge Kennels. I bred my girl to one of her guys years ago, and the pups were gorgeous!! Good luck and enjoy your new puppy!!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

craven.44 said:


> I am not an expert, but I would suggest a visit to their facility. Check out where the dogs are kept, and meet the parents. Talk to the breeder. A reputable breeder will have no problem showing their facility and answering any questions you might have. I am sure someone else here will be better able to help you. Good luck!!
> 
> Also, if it does not work out, I would suggest a rescue. Check out www.AGSRA.com and see what is available in your area. Once again, good luck!!


I plan to visit sometime in early December  I've also talked to them through e-mails and on a GSD forum, and they were very helpful! 
Rescuing is a wonderful thing, but I plan to purchase my first dog. Adoption will definitely be something I'll do later on!

Raven: I look them up, thanks! GSDs are my absolute favorite, and I'm very excited to get one


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Not being a GSD person, I can't comment as far as lines and breed structure goes. Their quality as a whole though, seems to be up to standard. I particularly like their perspective buyer application. In depth questions are asked which leads me to believe that they put a lot of effort into matching the right puppy with the right family. Their warranty is also pretty impressive. Guarantees for health, hip/elbow dysplasia, concern for spaying and neutering...AND they take back any and all of the puppies that they bred. To me that is a BIG BIG score point. A good breeder remains responsible for their dogs for as long as they are alive, IMO.

Everything seems to be well put together in my eyes, though perhaps one of our Shepherd people can shed more light on the the topics of lineage and breed quality.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Equinox said:


> I will be purchasing a German shepherd dog (my first dog!) from Starke Pfotens, and I have read the sticky on what to look for in a breeder, and I do not see any red flags going up. Could one of you experts give me some opinion on their dogs? I am in love with Jutta right now, she's a beauty. They do not have hip or elbow problems and the breeders are willing to buy back dogs with congenital diseases.
> Website: http://www.starkepfoten.com/
> 
> If there are any other reputable German shepherd breeders you know of, please give your suggestions  I am looking for working lines, or, at the least, short-haired GSDs. I've taken a look at Waldhimmel's but her dogs are rather plush-coated for me.
> ...


I'm sorry if they pay 3000.00 for a GSD pup whelped in the States the pup better walk on water and have a good paying job to help support the family.

*And, of course, we have a budget. My parents are not willing to buy any puppy who's initial cost goes over $3,000 *


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Really good looking genotypic pedigree. I don't like that they are breeding sunny with just a BH title. Looking deeper, I see sunny also has a completely untitled dam in her lines. Phenotypically, I don't like the look of Sunny either, mostly as she's underangulated even for working lines.

They've got some really good looking dogs and they are doing some really good things with their titling and breeding. This is a breeder I'd be more than happy to give my stamp of approval to, but not one I think I'd buy from. You can definitely find better both stateside and import.

I'm by no means an expert in GSD's though, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm looking at getting a working GSD in the future as well, so I've just done a huge amount of study on lines, conformation and breeding recently. Hopefully Xeph can stop in here and give some info.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

lol, the pups at Starke Pfoten are not priced at $3,000. I'm saying that if other people would like to suggest another breeder, it'd be nice if the cost of the puppies did not exceed that price, because that's the budget my parents set for me. 

Dakota Spirit - thanks for your help! I agree, I really liked how they were willing to buy back their dogs at anytime during its life. I think they also allow us a 2 day (or was it 3?) test run on the puppy.

Trumpetjock - I wasn't particularly interested in Sunny, either, and for some reason, her looks didn't appeal to me, even though I know looks aren't so important. I actually had my eyes on a litter from either Alma or Jutta, and I emailed them this morning inquiring about when they'll be expecting puppies. 
I am not altogether comfortable with the idea of importing or shipping a puppy over to me, because 1) I get the image of a young, 8-10 week old puppy in a crate by himself and get a claustrophobic feeling and 2) I really would rather meet the breeder at the breeding facility and get to see the mom at least. If I could, I would rather stick with locations I can drive to personally.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Equinox

*I am not altogether comfortable with the idea of importing or shipping a puppy over to me, because 1) I get the image of a young, 8-10 week old puppy in a crate by himself and get a claustrophobic feeling and 2) I really would rather meet the breeder at the breeding facility and get to see the mom at least. If I could, I would rather stick with locations I can drive to personally.*

In my books, that does make you smarter than the average bear, It does not mean there are not good import pups that are shipped and handle the experience but viewing the breeder's operations and picking up your pup to me is just a better way to go.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

oh, I agree 110%! I hardly think the regions where I live have the top notch German shepherds. 
In fact, I have seen so many breeders across the US and in Germany whose dogs I simply love. I'm guessing that imported/shipped puppies could just be some of the best bred and raised dogs around, but I know that a backyard breeder could easily make a nice, impressive website. I would just love it if I could take an around-the-world trip just to pick out a wonderful dog...but since I'm not getting a dog specifically for breeding or schultzhund, I just want to make sure I'm getting a nice pup


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Equinox, do you plan on working this puppy? If so, Molly Graf of Eichenluft (www.workinggermanshepherd.com) has two LOVELY bitches available for working homes.

I also suggest Triton Kennels (http://www.tritonkennels.com/), Bill Kulla (http://kulladogs.com/), Landschaft Kennels (http://landschaftkennels.com/)

These are all working line breeders


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Equinox, do you plan on working this puppy? If so, Molly Graf of Eichenluft (www.workinggermanshepherd.com) has two LOVELY bitches available for working homes.
> 
> I also suggest Triton Kennels (http://www.tritonkennels.com/), Bill Kulla (http://kulladogs.com/), Landschaft Kennels (http://landschaftkennels.com/)
> 
> These are all working line breeders


I'll second the eichenluft suggestion. I haven't run across the other two yet in my studies, but Molly has amazing dogs.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I took a look at all those sites, thanks!! And I have to say, I did have an eye on Eichenluft, Molly's dogs look so amazing! I'd love to get a puppy from the January 09 litter, but I do not plan to work the puppy. Schultzhund is definitely something I will be doing in the future, but right now, I am looking for more of a companion pet than anything. Her shepherds are probably best suited for an environment where they can train and compete and put their wonderful drives to use  

Also, PA and IL are almost all the way across the country from me - I don't think I could drive all the way there to get a puppy, being as cautious of imports as I am. But I just have to say again, the dogs are stunning!


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Equinox said:


> I took a look at all those sites, thanks!! And I have to say, I did have an eye on Eichenluft, Molly's dogs look so amazing! I'd love to get a puppy from the January 09 litter, but I do not plan to work the puppy. Schultzhund is definitely something I will be doing in the future, but right now, I am looking for more of a companion pet than anything. Her shepherds are probably best suited for an environment where they can train and compete and put their wonderful drives to use
> 
> Also, PA and IL are almost all the way across the country from me - I don't think I could drive all the way there to get a puppy, being as cautious of imports as I am. But I just have to say again, the dogs are stunning!


The breeder you linked is no different from eichenluft dogs really. They are working dogs with long pedigrees of working champions. If you plan on getting a working lines dog, you MUST work it. It will drive you absolutely insane if you don't. These are high energy, high drive dogs. If their drives are not 100% satisfied they can become extremely destructive and even aggressive. If you don't plan on working your dog in at least obedience, please look for a less drivey dog. Show lines would be good, and there are many litters out there that do show line/working lines crosses that come out spectacularly (Elana55's Atka is an example of one of these).


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I have contacted Starke Pfoten and families who have bought puppies from them, and they've assured me they have more "mellow" dogs that can do fine as just companions. When I said I do not plan to "work" the puppy, I meant he will not be training for Schultzhund or agility or something of the like - I said that because I saw on the websites that the dogs are marked as Schultzhund, personal protection, or police work prospects. I did not mean I will not be excersizing, playing, running, hiking, or going to classes. I already understand just how important it is to excercise a working line dog because they will become restless, mouthy, and destructive. I am looking for a working line dog, and be assured he'll get tons of excercise and keep me in shape, too!


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Equinox said:


> I did not mean I will not be excersizing, playing, running, hiking, or going to classes. I already understand just how important it is to excercise a working line dog because they will become restless, mouthy, and destructive. I am looking for a working line dog, and be assured he'll get tons of excercise and keep me in shape, too!


Good things, all of them. You should be fine with a working lines dog. Be aware, though, that it isn't just physical exercise these dogs need. They have actual drives that need to be satisfied as well. I highly recommend picking up _Culture Clash_ by Jean Donaldson. It has some very great tips on games and fun activities for both you and your dog to satisfy his primal drives.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you for the recommendation! Yep, I always hear that GSDs need TONS of mental stimulations, and friends have mentioned hiding toys for their shepherds to find to let them do some tracking, too. They're such a smart breed I hope my intelligence can match up


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Equinox said:


> Thank you for the recommendation! Yep, I always hear that GSDs need TONS of mental stimulations, and friends have mentioned hiding toys for their shepherds to find to let them do some tracking, too. They're such a smart breed I hope my intelligence can match up


I would say intelligence isn't the most important quality. I would rate patience and dedication as the top two. I know plenty of incredibly intelligent people who aren't very good dog trainers, because they get frustrated way too fast. That being said, intelligence is probably a close 3rd


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I can definitely dedicate myself to a dog - especially after 15 years of nonstop begging for one! No worries on patience, I live with my little sister and always help her with everything, sometimes I would love to jump up and throttle her, but I restrain myself  Haha, but no, I can be patient, I promise (even if the waiting for a dog is *killing* me)


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Equinox said:


> I can definitely dedicate myself to a dog - especially after 15 years of nonstop begging for one! No worries on patience, I live with my little sister and always help her with everything, sometimes I would love to jump up and throttle her, but I restrain myself  Haha, but no, I can be patient, I promise (even if the waiting for a dog is *killing* me)


I know the feeling. I was the older brother to 6 little sisters growing up. Patience is definitely my strong suit.

Good luck with finding the right dog. Keep us informed, and we'll definitely help you out with your choices.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I thought one sister was pretty bad... wow! 

Thank you! And I'll be sure to look at _Culture Clash_


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Her shepherds are probably best suited for an environment where they can train and compete and put their wonderful drives to use


Where do you think the non competitive puppies went xD

Molly's dogs do just wonderfully in pet homes. They can't all be high drive alligators. And I know shipping may make you a bit uncomfortable, but it's not as bad as people make it out to be. On top of that, Molly breeds with more than a BH in mind, and her dogs have good conformation.

I think it moderately unusual that so many of their dogs are V rated (call me cynical) and I would ask to see the dog's official critiques.

If I knew what state you were in, I could recommend breeders closer to you


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Haha, I guess it just got in my head that all the puppies with parents like her dogs would turn out with great drives that I probably won't be able to handle  I look at the list of future litters and I see "Schutzhund" "Protection" "police"  and I wonder if I'd be able to take care of a puppy bred for that! Thanks for enlightening me!! 

I'm sure that importing and shipping aren't so terrible, but it's just me and my OCDness and claustrophobia... even if it is getting just so tempting!! Do you know the price of her pups?

I live in Northern Oregon, so I'd love a breeder from Oregon, Washington, or Northern California!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Do you know the price of her pups?


$1200-1800



> I live in Northern Oregon, so I'd love a breeder from Oregon, Washington, or Northern California!


*evil grin* Oh sweetie....do I know people xD!!!!

I know you like working lines, but this is a FANTASTIC showline breeder...in fact her bitch Ule just went Universal Siegerin!

Temar German Shepherds

vom Banach

I know this is "only" two, but I can get more for you


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Xeph said:


> $1200-1800
> 
> 
> *evil grin* Oh sweetie....do I know people xD!!!!
> ...


1200.00 to 1800.00 is definitely a fair price for a well bred pup. With all the scam artist wheel/dealing with dogs I always like to question the prices before people jump in and make a purchase. I'm just paranoid about stuff like that especially with todays economy.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

wvasko said:


> 1200.00 to 1800.00 is definitely a fair price for a well bred pup. With all the scam artist wheel/dealing with dogs I always like to question the prices before people jump in and make a purchase. I'm just paranoid about stuff like that especially with todays economy.


That is a much better price. I can't image paying upwards of $3000 for a 10 week old dog. I've never even heard of a doberman priced over $2500, and I would still be catious of paying that much.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> That is a much better price. I can't image paying upwards of $3000 for a 10 week old dog. I've never even heard of a doberman priced over $2500, and I would still be catious of paying that much.


Well my theory on that is once you visit and see the operation and check out all a good breeder has to offer if it was much under that price I might be hesitant. When you get the mentally challenged people paying 2000.00 and up for the doodles and all the other designer misfit pups out there that just toss a couple dogs in a room and WOW we have another wonder/crossbred whatever. The 1200.00 to 1800.00 is a deal.


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

Things i like:
even if some are a little more bare, they at least shows their dogs. they have some sort of documentation stating the dog is a good specimen of the breed. They dont have too many dogs, and dont pruduce too many litters. they do health testing, and have gaurentees, plus have a right to first refusal clause. I like that they are honest about some negativwe attributes about the breed, and that they feed a higher quality food. They do seem to want to educate people and not sell to just anyone. LOVE that they have spueter contracts.

things i dont like:
this is only me, and I'm not trying to judge anyone, but me personally, i wouldnt buy from a breeder who ships. i asked my boss about this very topic, b/c she has been breeding Standard poodles for over 30 years. in all that time she has never shipped a dog anywhere, and doesnt intend to. there are many reasons for this. one, if the new owners are unhappy with the dog for whatever reason, it makes getting the dog back that much harder. two, good breeders like to keep track of their pups, in case any possible defects come along in life, and b.c these were pups they raised and loved, not many are so willing to let them go across the country (and if you are a longtime breeder who has had many pups over the years, having them All spread out across the country would make it a lot harder to do so). and this website has a neglect/abuse clause in the contract as well, how do they enforce that when the dog is 3,000 miles away (not to mention the health care and maintance clause, or how would they even know the person got rid of the dog?)? to me, breeders who ship nation wide are not bad, but not what i would define as a quality breeder. My boss did say, she may be open to possibly shipping, but it would have to be the most amazing home, and they would have to come and still meet her and the pup before hand. even then, she said she would probably not ship, but agree to let the parents take the dog home in a car in a crate. but this is a woman who breeds a breed that not everyone wants, and she has never had trouble finding local homes for the pups. Another thing that bugged me on the site is that they have "2 male deposits" left on their liter. all the good breeders i know have waiting lists for their pups, and find homes for the pups before the even have the liter. they are also extremely unnegotiable about the non refundable deposit.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Xeph said:


> $1200-1800
> 
> 
> *evil grin* Oh sweetie....do I know people xD!!!!
> ...


Thank you! I have already heard great things about vom Banach, but did not know about Temar. She really does have some beautiful bitches, and taking a look at them, I might go with her after some more breeder/info-hunting 
I am not dead set on working lines, so no worries there! And she's in Oregon, which is great.
I'd love love love to hear about any more breeders you have to suggest - I have already heard about von Waldhimmel, Kennel Gold-Berg, and Sherman Ranch, all from Oregon. What do you think of them? I've heard great things about Mary Bryant, and I agree that her showline dogs are gorgeous. 



DobManiac said:


> I can't image paying upwards of $3000 for a 10 week old dog. I've never even heard of a doberman priced over $2500, and I would still be catious of paying that much.





wvasko said:


> Well my theory on that is once you visit and see the operation and check out all a good breeder has to offer if it was much under that price I might be hesitant. When you get the mentally challenged people paying 2000.00 and up for the doodles and all the other designer misfit pups out there that just toss a couple dogs in a room and WOW we have another wonder/crossbred whatever. The 1200.00 to 1800.00 is a deal.


True, I've yet to see a puppy priced at $3000, although currently Starke Pfoten's fall litter will be going for $2200-$2400. 
My parents don't really mind what price we pay as long as it is under or around $3000, they told me to just pick out a puppy... money isn't an issue, as long as it's from a good breeder with good puppies 




Purplex15 said:


> things i dont like:
> this is only me, and I'm not trying to judge anyone, but me personally, i wouldnt buy from a breeder who ships.
> 
> and this website has a neglect/abuse clause in the contract as well, how do they enforce that when the dog is 3,000 miles away (not to mention the health care and maintance clause, or how would they even know the person got rid of the dog?)? to me, breeders who ship nation wide are not bad, but not what i would define as a quality breeder.
> ...



Well, I don't approve of shipping/importing a puppy either, but honestly, all of the breeders (for German shepherds, at least) do that!! I doubt that because a breeder ships, it doesn't make them "quality" anymore! I mean, I don't think a breeder would have the luck to have every single buyer to be local! That would be rather hard, wouldn't it? Since breeder's would specialize in one breed, and you can't count on everyone wanting a German shepherd! (as amazing as they are  ) And hey, at least they do buy the dogs back if they went to a bad home - better than several breeders I've read about!

I was a bit curious about the 2 available males, too, but I saw on other GSD websites that there are puppies who do not get placed before birth as well, so I don't think it's a breeder issue - maybe people don't like the prices, or the fact that the dogs are working lines, since it seems most prefer a showline for a pet/companion dog.

Meh, the nonnegotiable deposit thing was what had me wondering about whether or not to make a deposit - but I guess they can't have someone reserve a dog only to chicken out at the last minute! 
(^ please please please correct me if I'm wrong!! These are just the result of some thinking/musing )


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I was going to post Kennel Goldberg but I thought you only wanted working lines. I highly suggest you look further into waldhimmel! I'd say pass on Sherman Ranch

http://www.vonwaldberggermanshepherds.com <--suggest looking into



> things i dont like:
> this is only me, and I'm not trying to judge anyone, but me personally, i wouldnt buy from a breeder who ships.


And that is indeed fine for you personally, but the vast majority of GSD breeders ship....from all over. Especially those with import lines. Molly has FANTASTIC dogs, and she ships all over the US and outside of it....she also imports. Eurosport K9 (located in Texas) ships domestically and internationally....many small time breeders of GSDs ship....without it, it would be even harder to get a well bred animal of the lines, style, and temperament one wants. There are hundreds of GSD breeders....there are only dozens of quality GSD breeders


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

i would just like to thank you for taking the time to look into breeders and make an informed decision, and not supporting BYB


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I also have to disagree aout the shipping thing. My next German Spitz will be coming from Australia. Without breeders who are willing to ship, we would have DARN few breeds here in the US.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> I also have to disagree aout the shipping thing. My next German Spitz will be coming from Australia. Without breeders who are willing to ship, we would have DARN few breeds here in the US.


Yes, I would prefer to go see breeder establishment. Though I have had dogs shipped across the country(states only) and never had any kind of problems. This has been with dogs to train or purchase. The last 10 yrs it seems each year they are tightening temperature rules etc. If dog has to fly into one airport and then go to another airport it can be a problem in cold or hot weather. All airports have to be between 20% and 70% when planes land etc. I am not arguing the program as it is for the pup/dog's safety but sometimes it's quite difficult.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Yep, my next dog will be coming from Oregon. But I 'm going to fly out myself and take a look at the littter so I can pick the exact pup I want. I trust the breeder, but I want to make sure the puppy matches with the type of structure I need for my specific breeding program. Then the puppy will fly back in my plane.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> Yep, my next dog will be coming from Oregon. But I 'm going to fly out myself and take a look at the littter so I can pick the exact pup I want. I trust the breeder, but I want to make sure the puppy matches with the type of structure I need for my specific breeding program. Then the puppy will fly back in my plane.


DobManiac
My wife and I were looking for a ride to Hawaii(Maui Preferably) any future puppy plans in that direction.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

wvasko said:


> DobManiac
> My wife and I were looking for a ride to Hawaii(Maui Preferably) any future puppy plans in that direction.


No, unfortunately I'm already shelling out too much money to get this puppy. But I've earned up some miles I can use, and the breeder will negotiate with me on the price of the puppy. It seems that once you build up a reputation as a reliable show home, breeders are more willing to work with you on the price. Which is a blessing, because showing a dog sure ain't cheap.


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

i completely understand shipping in certain circumstances. im not against shipping of any kind, but dont really like the idea of putting an 8 week old puppy on a place for 6+ hours, that doesnt seem like the best thing for a dog. equi- it is not hard to find local homes. like i said my boss has been doing it for 30 years and the furthest she has sold to was about 2.5 hours away. her best friend also breeds minis and she has a similar rule about shipping. she also runs socal poodle rescue and doesnt like to ship those dogs either.

i have known many adult dogs to be shipped, and they have been completely fine. like i said, im not against shipping in general. but, i do think there are better alternatives for an 8 week old puppy. and like i said before, i do not veiw this as a point against the breeder, but not someone i personally would use. i personally, have high standards for breeders, but i do realize not everyone shares that view. im not saying they are awful, and i def. do not think they are a byb/puppymill, or anything close to that bad. 

i still dont agree about the 2 males left. again, its probably my high standards, or just my area, but every breeder i know (5), has a waiting list for pups, and people call them all the time for pups.they have never had a problem finding homes, its actually more of a problem of weeding through all the people to find the right home. part of the responsibility of breeding is knowing what to do with the pups once they are born. i know things can happen, and that peoeple might bring back pups. but having a liter without even having homes lined up is pretty stupid imo. what if they dont sell and this breeder is stuck with 2 more dogs? 

i still dont know about the deposit, and actually dont know many breeders who do use one. my boss has never used one. id have to ask why, but my guess would be that she has never thought about it before. she sells her pups for 2 grand each, at 4-8 every liter, thatys 8,000-16,000 every liter. she probably spends double to triple that amount on her dogs every year. so she really isnt doing this for the money at all. i dont think the idea of a deposit every crossed her mind.

again, there are things i like about this breeder, and to be honest, the things i dont like are things that most people overlook, and are things that are of my own personal belief. i def. wouldnt slam you if you got a dog from them or anything like that. i very nitpicky about my breeders


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

These people are in my area. I love the temperaments on their guys.

www.archangelgermanshepherds.com


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Purplex15 said:


> i still dont agree about the 2 males left. again, its probably my high standards, or just my area, but every breeder i know (5), has a waiting list for pups, and people call them all the time for pups.they have never had a problem finding homes, its actually more of a problem of weeding through all the people to find the right home. part of the responsibility of breeding is knowing what to do with the pups once they are born. i know things can happen, and that peoeple might bring back pups. but having a liter without even having homes lined up is pretty stupid imo. what if they dont sell and this breeder is stuck with 2 more dogs?


I understand this, but I just don't think it makes you a bad breeder by not having people wait for 1 or 2 years to get one of your puppies. As a breeder you have no idea whether or not the bitch will come into heat at the right time, if she will get pregnant, if the pregnancy will be successful, or how many pups will be born. 

I sometimes don't think it's fair to have people passing on other litters, to wait for a puppy that may or may not happen. But then again, there are a LOT of decent doberman breeders; one’s that will give you a structurally sound dog with good help. Of course the great ones are far and in between, but it is fairly easy to find a healthy doberman puppy if you put at least some effort into it. 

My next dog will be from one of the best breeders in the country, and I will have only waited three months for it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Another thing is, 2 males could be left for various reasons....family emergency, so the family backed out, the breeder decided they really WEREN'T a suitable home, family wanted a bitch puppy but the whole litter was males or vice versa...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Just wondering if the OP has made any decisions?


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Xeph said:


> $1200-1800
> 
> 
> *evil grin* Oh sweetie....do I know people xD!!!!
> ...


I’ve looked a bit more into TeMar, and falling in love with their dogs more and more every second! Any idea how much the pups cost? I’ll probably email them later, too, and try to arrange a time to visit. And Ule is absolutely stunning!! I really want a puppy from her, and they said they were planning on breeder her next year, so I’ll try to find out when  Von Waldberg shepherds look great, also, with lots of titles. 

Originally I was going to go with von Waldhimmel if I decided on showline (which a lot of people were pushing me towards) and Starke Pfoten if I wanted working lines. The dogs at von Waldhimmel are a bit to plush/long coated for me. If I decide on show lines, which breeder would you suggest? TeMar, von Waldberg, or von Waldhimmel? I’m leaning towards TeMar  (based on dog quality and warranty, not price for their puppies).


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

TeMar or Waldhimmel are both on par with me. I'm not terribly familiar with Waldberg.

By the way, Ule was this year's Universal Siegerin xD!!!!

I believe that Mary's dogs run $2000-2500. If you PM Cassidy's Mom on germanshepherds.com, she can tell you more. She owns/owned two dogs from Mary. Her girl, Dena, just passed at age 4....something completely mysterious. They think she may have eaten something poisonous, but aren't entirely sure. Her other dog, Keefer, is in absolutely fine health, and is gorgeous (Cassidy's Mom purchased long coats that came out of the itters).


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

You know I had been a _bit_ stubborn about going with working lines before... one recommendation from you and there's probably a 85% change I'll go with TeMar!! I've already sent an email to Mary inquiring about Ule's litter, so I'm waiting for a response now. Price is good, and I am still drooling over Ule and her amazing structure and posture and titles. 

Annd I'll go and send a PM to Cassidy's Mom, then. Oh no, that's terrible about Dena  I think I remember seeing some pictures of her, she looked like such a sweet girl. I go on a lot of forums, but my name changes depending on my mood  I usually use 'Rei' but I don't think it fit the username requirements (something about having to have 4+ letters or something). Thanks tons for your help!!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

If you're not dead set on a puppy, Mary has both a schutzhund titled bitch available (just under two) and a reallllllllllllllly nice male (Zeager) who just turned a year old!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Well, I am pretty dead set on a puppy - they are just too adorable, and I need to experience a puppy  Plus, a trained adult dog is not going to be within our budget, sadly, because I loved the bitch!!

Oh, and I PMed CassidysMom, and she mentioned that there were other people who bought Mary's dogs and had a negative experience? (one of the dogs developed cataracts as a puppy and another had behavioral/training issues...?)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Every breeder is going to produce health issues if they breed long enough. It's all in how the breeder handles those situations. You need to base these situations on the response of the breeder, not the issue of the dog.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I have asked about Mary and TeMar dogs from Kathy and Sheilah... They have told me she is tough to deal with and did not get AKC registration papers to either of them for their dogs and did not answer their calls or emails when their inquired about their puppies' poor health and temperament. I hope that is not true for the majority of the puppies she sells, but it does raise some flags for me.

I think I am starting to lean away from TeMar now... do you know of any more people who were happy with her dogs? 
And just wondering if you've ever had a TeMar puppy/dog before? I'd love to hear the more positive aspects of TeMar dogs! I will probably take a visit to the breeding facility personally and see what I think.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I could find a couple other people to ask. Honestly, this is the first time I've heard negative things about Mary and her dogs, and I am quite sorry to hear it.

However, I can help you look for other breeders, since you're not in a rush and want a breeder that suits you.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Me too, I was so excited about her dogs! But I also found TeMar shepherds on Rip-Off Report, too. 

More help would be great! I didn't imagine breeder-hunting would be so tough, but I definitely am not in a rush, and even more definitely, I need a breeder that would be good for me. I'm still partial to the working line, but after looking at those show line dogs, I wouldn't mind one at all


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Sorry Equinox...I'm in Jersey and have been away from my computer  Still puppy shopping?

I feel bad about recommending the aforementioned now, since a few things have come to the forefront :-( It's very disappointing...


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

No problem  And yes, I am! But I think I've settled on someone. Ever heard of vom HausReid from Ray Reid? He's a certified Schutzhund judge and has been breeding for over 35 years. CastleMaid and middleofnowhere on germanshepherds both have had dogs from him and absolutely love them. He's not big on technology, so his website's a bit blank - http://www.germanshepherdpets.net/index.php

And don't worry about it, you've been super helpful and I'd love any advice you have! The thing is, a lot of breeders aren't as great as they appear. In fact, I did some more inquiring regarding Starke Pfoten German shepherds (which had a very detailed, fancy website and titles and testimonials)... someone messaged me relating her experience with them and now I really don't think I'd want a puppy from that place. It seems that their "facility" is just their (relatively large) backyard and their dogs are bred at ages when they should have been retired. 

I'm just so glad I've joined these forums and everyone is helping me out


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I'd say Haus Reid is a fantastic choice  CastleMaid and MoN know their stuff 

I'm glad I could help, and I'm VERY glad you joined gsd.com! It's a fantastic place for all things GSD ^_^


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## All about Eva (Nov 22, 2008)

What ever you decide, get everything your breeder says in writing!!!! the hips and elbows need to be at least a 2 year contract! From the vet medical side, GSD have alot of health problems and if a breeder is not willing to give you longer than 1 year health contract on this than I may reconsider. i know one year is standerd, but one year is not enough time for a large breed dog to see problems. that is why OFA certifications are done at 2 years of age when the dog is most likely done growing. Ask about health problems in litters past. Most important is everything in writing with both parties.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

After I was told I could get a dog, I sort of went on a forum/research frenzy. I just googled "german shepherd forums" and what do you know? That website popped up, and I only just discovere the nonforum part of the website xD Silly of me, I know! But I have learned so so so much from that forum and this one and am very lucky that I decided to research and that I had the help of so many people. 

Just last year, I would've thought it'd be alright to go buy a crate and a bed and some random IAMs food, pop by a local pet store, and pick up a puppy then and there, with or without AKC registration or a warranty. Now I realize that it's those kind of assumptions that end up fishing money out of pockets and dumping poor dogs into shelters  I was too happy to realize how important research is!

*All about Eva - *I was really pleased to find out that Ray's dogs have a 2 year warranty on them in general. If within two years I feel unsatisfied with the dog for any reason, I could get a replacement or a refund. His dogs also all have "a-normal" hips which is great. I plan to ask him for contact information of others who have purchased his dogs before, too, although he does sell a lot of pups to police departments.

So far, I'm pretty pleased with vom HausReid, but doesn't mean I plan to stop looking!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Good for you for always investigating further, though I'm sure you'll ADORE your Haus Reid dog if that's who you stick with!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm pretty sure I will! 
I just hope I can survive the wait


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Equinox said:


> I'm pretty sure I will!
> I just hope I can survive the wait


Well they say all good things come to those that wait.


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## Masterjedi688 (Apr 27, 2009)

Here are a few more places you can checkout fora a GSD:

www.alpinek9.com

www.mittelwest.com

www.rockymountaingsd.com

www.alldogstrain.com/mf

Good Luck in finding your new GSD.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Your only 15? Wow, I would be not so keen to suggest a working line dog to someone so young. Handling a dog with a lot of drive isn't for the faint hearted... Or the first timer, a non working line GSD can still go hiking, running & such. 

Of course, being a fan of rescues you could always rescue one too. There are sooooo many great great digs in rescue that need loving homes, in most cases they were owner surrenders & don't have emotional baggage that most ppl associate with a shelter or rescue dog. Jo my pup is a shelter pup & she is the most laid back pup ever, not even gunfire phases her.


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

Haha - ya'll do realize this thread is from 2008? Grace already has Trent


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Masterjedi688 said:


> Here are a few more places you can checkout fora a GSD:
> 
> www.alpinek9.com
> 
> ...


Threads from 2008. Long live Trent!



dogdragoness said:


> Your only 15? Wow, I would be not so keen to suggest a working line dog to someone so young. Handling a dog with a lot of drive isn't for the faint hearted... Or the first timer, a non working line GSD can still go hiking, running & such.
> 
> Of course, being a fan of rescues you could always rescue one too. There are sooooo many great great digs in rescue that need loving homes, in most cases they were owner surrenders & don't have emotional baggage that most ppl associate with a shelter or rescue dog. Jo my pup is a shelter pup & she is the most laid back pup ever, not even gunfire phases her.


What I said above. And if any one should have a working line GSD at 15, it is Equinox. Reading through the first few page of this old thread, it is clear she knew what she wanted and was asking the right questions. Not every one wants a shelter dog and it sort of irritates me when it is suggested in threads where the OP is on point.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> Your only 15? Wow, I would be not so keen to suggest a working line dog to someone so young. Handling a dog with a lot of drive isn't for the faint hearted... Or the first timer, a non working line GSD can still go hiking, running & such.
> 
> Of course, being a fan of rescues you could always rescue one too. There are sooooo many great great digs in rescue that need loving homes, in most cases they were owner surrenders & don't have emotional baggage that most ppl associate with a shelter or rescue dog. Jo my pup is a shelter pup & she is the most laid back pup ever, not even gunfire phases her.


She was 15 in *2008*, so would be 18 now. She has Trent and is working him.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

And I can absolutely assure you that I have been adequately providing for this dog as a high energy, high drive, working bred German Shepherd  Trent is 2 1/2 now, and I just turned 18 years old in August, and I could not have asked for a more ideal companion for myself. 



















He's calm and well behaved around the house




























And he's great with kids as well



















For anyone interested, I did go with vom HausReid as a breeder and could not be more happy with the dog I got. 

And next time around? I'm getting another, high drive, working line German Shepherd.


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

Ohhhhh Trent<3

*Aija Drools*


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Hmmmmmm! Calm and handsome and sure looks like he's being cared for properly. Looks like a fairy tale in progress for all.


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