# A big beautiful dog!!!



## hamid (May 6, 2013)

I always like to produce new thing! its not what my mean that i like mixed dog but some time they will b beautiful . this 89cm tall dog is mixed with kangal and caucasian . please tell me your opinion !!!! thank u all !


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Yes, that dog is big and yes he is beautiful! A Kangal/CO mix? Wow! Never had a Kangal in my stories yet, but I have used a CO before. I would not like to get on that dog's bad side, lol. But at the same time I'd love to pet that dog....if he'd let me.


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## hamid (May 6, 2013)

you are right my friend they are dangerous in their territory . kangals are big breed which can be bigger than co ! I can give you useful info about them if you order me!!!


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Hey go ahead hamid, I love learning about dogs! And Kangals grow bigger than a CO? :O


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Well, Caucasian ovcharkas do not have a maximum height (females must be 68+ cm/27+ inch; males must be 70+ cm/27,5+ inch), while Kangals do (65-85 cm/25,5-33,5 inch). So in theory Caucasian ovcharkas could get bigger than Kangals, not the other way around. 

But then, I have heard of Kangals getting as big as 92 cm (36 inch)... humongeous, but apparently out of standard.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Wow that's big Avie! So they can grow bigger than an Irish Wolfhound? I knew he wasn't always the tallest dog in the world.


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## MollieLoo95 (Feb 24, 2013)

Big! But beautiful. I'm not sure I'd like to offend him, though...


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## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

Actually Hamid is right, Kangals and other Turkish livestock guardian breeds in general tend to grow a little taller than the Caucasian Ovcharka.
Caucasian Ovcharka's on the other hand, the ones from modern lines especially, are overall a little heavier from Kangals because they are more "big boned".

So although there is no maximum height set for the Caucasian Ovcharka, FCI and the Russian Cynological Federation prefer males to be 72-75 cm (28-29 inches) and females around 67-70 cm (26-27 inches). 
In practice however, you will see that in general male Caucasian Ovcharka's are between 75 and 82 cm (28-32 inches) and the females are between 65 and 72 cm (25-28 inches).

And to answer Spirit_of_Cotons's question: no, generally a Caucasian Ovcharka will not grow bigger than an Irish Wolfhound. The minimum height for Irish Wolfhound males is 32 inches, usually they are around 34 though.

Bigger is not always better. I always tell people who talk about size, these breeds (by that I mean Caucasian Ovcharka, Kangal and other livestock guardian breeds) are supposed to be agile and long living.
They need to have a balanced, imposing appearance
Above all they are supposed to be functional. If the dog is too big and too heavy, it won't be able to do its job (which would be guarding livestock & property) properly.
Plus the bigger they are, the more chance you'll have of them developing several health issues.

There are also other LGD breeds that can grow really tall and get really heavy, but as I said the LGD's size is meaningless if he is not functional

The dog on the picture Hamid placed appears to be absolutely stunning. But for me to say more I would have to see other pictures from a different angle.


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## hamid (May 6, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> Hey go ahead hamid, I love learning about dogs! And Kangals grow bigger than a CO? :O


The Kangal Dog is a large, powerful, heavy-boned dog, whose size and proportions have developed naturally as a result of its continued use in Turkey as a guardian against predators . the head is big muscles are verticillate and strong and in one word they are amazing! the middle east people like persian (iran) , old osmani (turkey) , caucasian an exc have been breeding the fighter and guard dogs for 5 thousand years because of war and Pastoralist nature and this act cause to breed the big and stromg dog for these purposes . the grand pa of them i think are tibetan mastiff and afshar which are great . turkeys people have been scientific works on one of the persian breed name sarabi and create kangal that can growth to 85 cm an average . in this video you can see a kangal *with one meter hight and 100 kg weght*[video]http://www.4shared.com/video/1YTvsXJE/kangal_1_metri.html[/video]


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## hamid (May 6, 2013)

mr mountain dogs is right. when the dogs are growing bigger it can cause healthy problems and make dog lazy on the side of the sofa!!! but kangals , sarabis , afshars (are very scarce so that i could not see that) , caucasians are shepherd dogs which have been guarding from herd for many years an now we can see them in their own job on top of the mountain than those dogs are functional despite that they are so big .


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## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

As someone who owns Caucasian Ovcharka's and who has decades of experience with livestock guardian breeds, I can tell you that these dogs can not remain functional if they are too big.
If you look at the aboriginal and/or working lines in Central Asian and Caucasian shepherd dogs, Kangals, Akbash, Yoruk, Spanish and Pyrenean Mastiffs etc you will notice a pattern.
None of them will be 1m tall and weigh 100kg.

Why you may ask? Well because they are supposed to be swift, agile, capable of running off predators and sticking to the livestock on different pastures and rugged mountainsides.
A dog that is 1m tall and weighs 100kg won't be able to keep up for very long and will soon get tired.
Shepherds/cobans have no use for such dog.
Only people living in the urban settings would ever want a dog that big that can barely move. So they can show off to their neighbors.

Breeding a working breed only for its size and looks causes problems like hip and elbow dysplasia, skeletal issues, heart problems, eye problems, bloating, early death etc.
It is important to mainly breed for good health, functionality, correct temperament and longevity. Staying as close as possible to the breed standard is nice, but as I said looks should not be the most important thing when it comes to breeding livestock guardian dogs.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

That is a very large dog!! I have a small mixed breed and I think he's great!


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## hamid (May 6, 2013)

I am grateful to mountaindogs useful informations and thats the reason for choosing dogs in army because of functionality . but the kangals are great and they have been adapting their selves with this huge body for more than on thousand years . actually their big and impressive body is a weapon which prevent wolves attacks and provides safety for herd. in gray wolves you can see big ones which are alpha in their group and run in front the pack better than the other ones and thats because of their capability of adapting with mountain . here i upload some them but unfortunately hunted.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I actually think it's very upsetting that people choose to hunt wolves... For what? For fun? Compensation for something small...? 

And I suppose it makes much more sense to show pictures of dead wolf corpses when trying to show people how big they are, instead of ones that are alive like below...? 










No, I don't see the logic in that.

About Kangals, I actually think the bigger they are, the less efficient they'll be. I think there's a classic mistake being made; some is good, so more must be better. 
In this case: 'big is good, so bigger must be better.' 
MountainDogs explained why that's not true and I agree.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Avie--gorgeous wolf shot! I love wolves (my favorite are the Arctic Wolves) and can't imagine why people would want to hunt them. I understand some are upset, like ranchers, but there are other ways to deal with wolves besides shooting. 

Here's a question though, I thought wolves were supposed to be the largest canid there was. Not true?


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

There are people who hunt wolves up here, but it is strictly controlled, just as bear baiting and other hunts are. (I won't comment on a certain political celebrity who chose to hunt wolves by helicopter, but from what I know, that is illegal.)

Me, I'll eat a moose, but I'm really more of a "camera hunter." I'd just love to get some good pictures of wolves and let them be on their way.

And yeah, even though I respect subsistence hunters, I still find pictures of wolf corpses to be pretty distasteful.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> Here's a question though, I thought wolves were supposed to be the largest canid there was. Not true?


I thought wolves are the largest canid? I can think of no reason why that isn't true.  



packetsmom said:


> There are people who hunt wolves up here, but it is strictly controlled, just as bear baiting and other hunts are. (I won't comment on a certain political celebrity who chose to hunt wolves by helicopter, but from what I know, that is illegal.)
> 
> Me, I'll eat a moose, but I'm really more of a "camera hunter." I'd just love to get some good pictures of wolves and let them be on their way.
> 
> And yeah, even though I respect subsistence hunters, I still find pictures of wolf corpses to be pretty distasteful.


Well, I am sure I'm largely biased because wolves are so rare in Europe, especially central Europe and where I live. A lone wolf has been sighted in our woods for the first time since 1897! Great news, lots of people welcome the first of our apex predators back, including me. (brown bears used to live here too, but I don't think they'll ever return)


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## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

Hamid you need to do some more research. 

First of all, you can not compare the smaller wolves in Turkey and in Central Asia with the huge North American wolves. The wolves in Northern America are larger, stronger and they form bigger packs.
Second of all, livestock guardian dogs rarely ever get into a physical altercation with large predators. Their first life of defense is barking.
Wolves and other predators are smart and they will try to avoid injuries because an injury often means a certain death in the wild. 
So when a farmer runs enough LGD's, just their presence is usually enough of a deterrent and the predators will move on to an "easier" prey.
Numerous studies have been done where this came to light, Coppinger's study is one of them.

And according to latest research, dogs are descendants from the South-Asian wolves. 
This to me explains why when breeders push for large size, we end up with breeds that suffer from serious genetic health issues. Dogs were never meant to be huge.
And this also explains why you can not compare domesticated dogs with Northern American wolves.
The large wolves of Alaska and Canada sometimes weigh 3–6 times more than their Middle Eastern and South Asian cousins.

One more thing, I have to say this again: when you look at authentic Kangals, Kangals that are actually working as livestock guardian dogs...
you will notice that even though they are large dogs, non of them are humongous. 
As I said in my previous post, a 1m tall and 100kg heavy dog is not agile enough to keep up with the flock/herd and they would cost the shepherd/çoban too much money to feed.
So they would be absolutely useless to them.
Functionality is everything for these type of breeds.

And I agree with everything Avie said, wolves are incredibly important for our eco-system and they need to be preserved.


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## saimgee123 (May 18, 2013)

Interesting post. No doubt this dog is big and looking so beautiful. I think you produce a good one after mixing kangal and caucasian. I like your idea to produce this one.
http://www.marialist.com/for-sale/animals/pay-for-german-shepherd-puppies-for-sale-in-michigan_782


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## hamid (May 6, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> Avie--gorgeous wolf shot! I love wolves (my favorite are the Arctic Wolves) and can't imagine why people would want to hunt them. I understand some are upset, like ranchers, but there are other ways to deal with wolves besides shooting.
> 
> Here's a question though, I thought wolves were supposed to be the largest canid there was. Not true?


I agree . i think wolves are the father of canids .


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## hamid (May 6, 2013)

MountainDogs said:


> Hamid you need to do some more research.
> 
> First of all, you can not compare the smaller wolves in Turkey and in Central Asia with the huge North American wolves. The wolves in Northern America are larger, stronger and they form bigger packs.
> Second of all, livestock guardian dogs rarely ever get into a physical altercation with large predators. Their first life of defense is barking.
> ...


This is actually what i am saying. the large body is their weapon to prevent wolves from getting into herd and and it will be cost effective for shepherds to feed that large dogs despite the fact that it can be expensive for them. do not forget that the wolves are abe to calculate the hight , weight and the health status of their victims and you can imagine that when they see a big and strong dog like kangals so the Departure probability is high and this can explain their expensive price of the pig ones . but because i am not sure with the grand father of oll dogs i accept your useful information about that and your statement about the research which i have to do my friend .!!


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## Jonathan Dei (Jan 26, 2021)

hamid said:


> I always like to produce new thing! its not what my mean that i like mixed dog but some time they will b beautiful . this 89cm tall dog is mixed with kangal and caucasian . please tell me your opinion !!!! thank u all !


Hello Hamid which of the breeds was the female?????


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Hi, unfortunately Hamid hasn't been here in seven years, and this thread is just as old. I'm closing it to prevent confusion. Feel free to join in any of our current discussions or start your own thread!


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