# Why Does Positive Training not work?



## pattymac (Oct 11, 2008)

Not my opinion but I hear this alot from people who use aversion or even yank and crank training..ie Brad Pattison's 'method' I see alot of them writing that they spent all this money using treats to train their dogs and it hasn't worked and they don't want to carry treats around with them and the dog won't do anything for them without treats and on and on. I agree that some negative reinforcement can be necessary once the dog knows the behaviour 100% and is just being a dog and not listening, maybe they can smell that squirrel or cat that just walked by 2 minutes before you got there. Is it because they just don't understand the technique or they're unwilling to follow through with the training to where you phase out treats and start randomly rewarding for the behaviour?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I take "positive" training to mean the application of learning theory. There is no concrete definition of what "positive" training is. So, and IMO, it's simple ignorance of learning theory. How many people these days do we hear saying gravity on Earth doesn't work? When someone says "positive" training does work, they are making the same kind of statement.

The application of learning theory fails precisely when an handler does not/can not control the antecedent and consequence for the target behavior. In other words, it's not the methodology that fails, it's the handler. And if we're ultimately responsible for our dogs, should that blame be placed anywhere else?


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

I think a lot of people who say positive training doesn't work don't bother to learn to do it correctly, expect it to work in two seconds and don't really want to bother learning how to train their dog correctly. They also don't start when the dog is young but wait until it gets older and is harder to manage.

Just my opinion....


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

I would never say it doesn't have a place in the world of dog training, but I, in general, I don't use treats to train. I think one of the problems is that there are too many trainers out there who are teaching these click and treat type methods and don't quite understand how it works in the first place. There are probably just as many of those trainers as there are trainers who are yanking on dogs and when the dog complies out of fear they say it's trained 

I say this because when I first started to really get into training when I was about 12 or 13 the only option in town were "positive trainers". I took several different obedience courses (and an agility course that used the same principals) with two different dogs I owned in that time and was never given an explination as to how to phase out treats. I actually had to really dig for that information on my own.

The reason I don't use treats is that they can be a real pain to carry in my pocket or in a pouch or whatever and I want my dog to work for me because he thinks I'm awesome, not because I'm a vending machine  Now this doesn't mean I don't ever use treats or wouldn't ever use treats. I do use them sporadically when teaching something more difficult or for like the first lesson of something. I use them to shape a behavior (ie: treat over the nose and hand ont he butt to get the dog to sit) but I make sure that my verbal and physical praise is much more important than a treat. I use it more often and emphasize on it more. The treats are kind of like a bonus and to guide the dog when needed.

Now say I come across a dog who doesn't give a darn whether or not he gets physical or verbal praise but thinks treats are the end to all then I would get the treats out and use them a lot more than I would normally.

So they deffinately have a place. I won't dismiss them because of my personal prefrences, if it will work to to help a dog learn quicker, easier and more effectively than not using them would. The same principal applies to my use of training collars for correction. I don't use them unless I think it's necessary and they're not a _solution_ but rather a _tool_ to aid in training.

I always have, and always will believe that all dogs learn differently and that there always has to be some kind of balance. There's a place for every tool you just have to figure out where it is and whether or not it's with YOUR dog, regardless of whether or not it worked on every other dog you know.

myminpins is right too that it's more effective with a dog who doesn't have any bad habits already developed. If every person started training their dogs as puppies with these methods I think they could be extremely effective, unfortunately most dogs I've come across where the owner is finally willing to seek help from a trainer, the dog is already older and has bad habits devloped so it's a little harder and takes a little longer to use any kind of possitive route more so the owner sees it as the method isn't working, when really their dog just needs more work, time, patience and persistence.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

well I was going to jump in but after DGG got through there was nothing I could add to the thread.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

wvasko said:


> well I was going to jump in but after DGG got through there was nothing I could add to the thread.


lol, sorry Wvasko! I actually thought of something else to add and came back to do it... but now I've forgotten... so if YOU remember what it is, feel free to post it!  ugh, time for me to get off the comp and stop studying so much stuff because my brain is getting tired! Let me know if you remember what I was going to add because I'm sure it was worth-while


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

As a treat feeder, I might carry three pieces of kibble in my pocket. I don't find it cluttering my pockets, or cumbersome to dole out. In fact, I've probably been carrying the same three pieces of kibble in my pocket for weeks now...I really should replenish them with fresh ones. 

Why do I even bother carrying these reinforcers? Sometime my dog will offer a spectacular behavior in a situation I would not expect. At least I have something with me that I'm certain she finds reinforcing. I don't have the ego to admit she finds me a strong enough reinforcement, so perhaps I carry this kibble as a reminder of that.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> As a treat feeder, I might carry three pieces of kibble in my pocket. I don't find it cluttering my pockets, or cumbersome to dole out. In fact, I've probably been carrying the same three pieces of kibble in my pocket for weeks now...I really should replenish them with fresh ones.
> 
> Why do I even bother carrying these reinforcers? Sometime my dog will offer a spectacular behavior in a situation I would not expect. At least I have something with me that I'm certain she finds reinforcing. I don't have the ego to admit she finds me a strong enough reinforcement, so perhaps I carry this kibble as a reminder of that.


Oh I don't have a big ego, I'd be lying if I said my dogs would RATHER me than a treat. My point was that *I* would rather they like me better than a treat, and so what they don't know can't hurt them. Linkin's never had the opportunity to have treats as a reward for a lot of things. They're given as special bonuses from time to time and I've used them to teach specific tricks, but for the majority he's always had my praise as a reward and he reacts the same for my praise as most dogs do for a treat. Coal was originally treat trained and he can be a real bone head in the sense that if i don't have a treat he's more likely to ignore me, but if I do have a treat he's more likely to display every single trick he knows in a guessing game attempt to get the reward. He's not actually LISTENING to me because he's so hyped up over the treat. He's TOO treat motivated. If I were to choose to use treats as a primary reward I'd prefer to use them on a dog that isn't as amped about them as Coal is, a dog who gets that it's a reward and uses it as motivation but isn't so hypnotize by it that he's not even paying attention to what I'm asking of him.


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## Chuckles (Sep 20, 2008)

IMHO. Positive training = part persistence + part wishful thinking + part dumb luck


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

Chuckles said:


> IMHO. Positive training = part persistence + part wishful thinking + part dumb luck


I feel very sorry for any dogs owned by you


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## pattymac (Oct 11, 2008)

Great responses everybody. I was just looking for some opinions because there are people out there that are so anti-positive training that you'd think they'd drop dead in their tracks if they gave their dog a treat for doing something.

I find with Bayley that once she learns something I can fade out the treats pretty quickly and go with praise or silly play and that works. She's learned to spin around and I think she thinks that's great fun, so she'll do it now without any treats.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

My dogs are supremely food-motivated. If I trained without treats, we would take an infinitely longer time to accomplish anything. I've faded treats, but that doesn't mean I never treat them anymore. Even when practising old behaviours like "sit" or "paw" I will treat them once in awhile. I think it's important to keep the incentive there. Maybe that means my dogs only obey me because they think they'll get food for it. I'm actually okay with that. 

I think a lot of the times when positive reinforcement fails, it's because the owners usually haven't gotten a good grip on things yet. Positive reinforcement often seems easier to learn than negative reinforcement. It's certainly easier to not screw up, but it's just as hard to get right. People think that positive training is just about stuffing a treat into their dog's mouth everytime they do something right. This works for awhile until they start upping the ante too fast, failing to isolate distractions, treating too early, messing up the reinforcement ratios. Positive training is fun and effective, but it's not simple business, and owners need to familiarise themselves with it before expecting results.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

Positive reinforcement with my husky is very tricky. I have to know what mood he's in to figure out what would best entice him to participate and comply. Sometimes it is verbal praise, the squeak of a toy, a piece of cheese (Havarti), or the jingle of car keys (thinks we may go for a ride). When I think of positive reinforcement, I am creating an experience where both participant gains from it.

When I think of negative reinforcement, the experience is not enjoyed by one or more participant. It creates fear and avoidance. I've noticed my sons try this by shouting "no", scolding, or jerking on the leash. (They got this idea from their father... not by my doing). It did not create a pleasent relationship and the dogs avoided them.

When my sons saw what little effort it took for Lola and Ilya to comply to my requests, they did change their approach. It wasn't easy for them either. My youngest was more than thrilled when his dog gave him a "high 10". Lola will do this with and without treats. 

I would end by saying "treat training" has its limitations with my siberian husky.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

The part about these discussions that I find amusing is that most people seem to think it's all one or the other. I use compulsion (not saying you should), but I use lots or positive reinforcement especially during the teaching phase. Also the act of withholding praise/attention/food reward can be considered negative reinforcement. You work hard to motivate the dog to receive a particular reward, and then you withhold it when they don't do right. What is that?

Also, people who strongly object to compulsion training seem to have an image of dogs suffering through a lifetime of punishment and fear. Dogs quickly learn to avoid the behaviors that bring punitive corrections, and they stop receiving them. As long as corrections are fairly administered and predictable, the dogs get over it. When they learn to operate within reasonable limits, they earn considerable freedom and get to do lots of fun things.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

DogGoneGood said:


> Oh I don't have a big ego, I'd be lying if I said my dogs would RATHER me than a treat.


I wasn't suggesting that at all. I was only speaking of myself. 



> My point was that *I* would rather they like me better than a treat, and so what they don't know can't hurt them.


Our knowledge that a dog is motivated by his human is very, very limited. I want to believe it, but as far as I need to be concerned, I'm just another object in my dog's environment. Our knowledge that a dog is motivated by food, however, is natural, necessary, and concrete. I (speaking for myself again) don't want to guess and be wrong at what motivates my dog so I use what's natural to her. If the dog associates me with her food, double bonus for me. 



> Linkin's never had the opportunity to have treats as a reward for a lot of things.


Reinforcers don't have to be treats. It can be anything that gets the behavior. Sniffing a dog's butt can be reinforcing to many dogs and can be used to train in behaviors. In fact, this is exactly how a positive trainer moves away from food rewards...they use life rewards. You're attempting to do the same thing, but just not using the primary motivator for dogs, their food. 



> Coal was originally treat trained and he can be a real bone head in the sense that if i don't have a treat he's more likely to ignore me, but if I do have a treat he's more likely to display every single trick he knows in a guessing game attempt to get the reward. He's not actually LISTENING to me because he's so hyped up over the treat.


Don't take this the wrong way, but Coal is not the bone head here.  All the dancing around, you inadvertently reinforced, and the guessing has more to do with him not understanding your cues. The mechanical skill in dog training is very important, and much of your dog's excess behavior can be cleaned up by improving your mechanical skill. I'm not criticizing you here, this is a common problem with many dog trainers, and it often leads them into believing such and such a method isn't working. Believe it or not, there are camps offered to help dog trainers improve their mechanical skill, and guess what species of animal is used as the subject... It's not dogs, it's chickens. 



> He's TOO treat motivated. If I were to choose to use treats as a primary reward I'd prefer to use them on a dog that isn't as amped about them as Coal is, a dog who gets that it's a reward and uses it as motivation but isn't so hypnotize by it that he's not even paying attention to what I'm asking of him.


There are tricks to devaluing a food reward to help minimize some of the excess behavior. I've not met a dog who was so over-the-top food motivated that couldn't be corralled. I've met a few who were slippery though.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> The part about these discussions that I find amusing is that most people seem to think it's all one or the other. I use compulsion (not saying you should), but I use lots or positive reinforcement especially during the teaching phase. Also the act of withholding praise/attention/food reward can be considered negative reinforcement. You work hard to motivate the dog to receive a particular reward, and then you withhold it when they don't do right. What is that?
> 
> .


That is a good point Marsh! I've been thinking about how to explain this to my children. I had been searching for a trainer in the area where they would teach children how to train their dogs. (doesn't seem to exist). My children had an authoratative approach ... I say, you do. Then my youngest thought about modeling what he wanted his dog to do by placing toy in his mouth for "take it" (that was entertaining) It wasn't until he realized how to "communicate" with Lola to elicite a response.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Also the act of withholding praise/attention/food reward can be considered negative reinforcement. You work hard to motivate the dog to receive a particular reward, and then you withhold it when they don't do right. What is that?


It's certainly not negative reinforcement. It's negative punishment. You're removing (negative) something the dog desires.
http://www.psychology.uiowa.edu/Faculty/Wasserman/Glossary/punishment.html


> Negative Punishment
> In an attempt to decrease the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the removal of an appetitive stimulus. This is negative punishment.


But operant responses are only half the equation, and not the most significant half IMO. 




> Dogs quickly learn to avoid the behaviors that bring punitive corrections, and they stop receiving them.


This is true to a point, but not the goal of dog training. Example, the dog who's punished for barking when the owner is present, is quiet in the owner's presence, but yaps up a storm when the owner is gone. In many cases the punishment (abusive or not) can exacerbate the unwanted barking. 



> As long as corrections are fairly administered and predictable, the dogs get over it.


This is what the science says, however, the laboratory work that was done to prove this was conducted with the accuracy of computers. Your average dog trainer does not have the accuracy or predictability a computer would have. Otherwise, yes, if the human is not your average dog trainer, and has done a good job at improving their mechanical skill such that his punishments are predictable, the punishment will in fact be punishing. Punishments, however, do not get desired behavior, they only diminish undesirable behaviors.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

> Negative Punishment
> In an attempt to decrease the likelihood of a behavior occurring in the future, an operant response is followed by the removal of an appetitive stimulus. This is negative punishment.


My literacy in the technical jargon of dog training is lacking. 

As far as the mechanical accuracy of delivering corrections, it is not difficult to become proficient. People who can operate an automobile without crashing it have reflexes sufficient for dog training. The ability to read a dog (e.g., differentiating between the dog refusing to obey and his honest confusion about what's being asked) is a bit trickier. IMO, where people go farthest off track--particularly with compulsion training--is in adopting a combative attitude about obedience. It should not be viewed as crushing an opponent, but rather making a better dog. It helps if you actually LIKE dogs to begin with.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> The ability to read a dog (e.g., differentiating between the dog refusing to obey and his honest confusion about what's being asked) is a bit trickier.


Why tricky? Either the behavior is what we want, or it is not. All we can observe is what the dog does, not his private, internal motivations for why he does what he does. My question, really, is why would your approach change in addressing the behavior, if the refusal was willful or not? 



> IMO, where people go farthest off track--particularly with compulsion training--is in adopting a combative attitude about obedience. It should not be viewed as crushing an opponent, but rather making a better dog.


I don't think anyone disagrees with this point, nor do I believe this is what's being debated. 



> It helps if you actually LIKE dogs to begin with.


This is what I think is actually being debated...at what point do we define that someone likes dogs or not? This is probably best left a rhetorical question as it has nothing to do with training.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Why tricky? Either the behavior is what we want, or it is not. All we can observe is what the dog does, not his private, internal motivations for why he does what he does. My question, really, is why would your approach change in addressing the behavior, if the refusal was willful or not?


I was specifically referring to the administering of corrections. If the dog doesn't know what to do, he can't fairly be corrected for not doing it. If the lure of a distraction (e.g., chasing a deer) is the cause of the refusal to recall, or if he just doesn't feel like it right now, doesn't really make a difference. But if the dog doesn't completely understand the command (e.g., he's solid on the voice command but iffy on the whistle), or you can't be certain he heard it, then a correction is unfair.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I wasn't suggesting that at all. I was only speaking of myself.


Oh I get that, I was merely adding to the conversation...



> Our knowledge that a dog is motivated by his human is very, very limited. I want to believe it, but as far as I need to be concerned, I'm just another object in my dog's environment. Our knowledge that a dog is motivated by food, however, is natural, necessary, and concrete. I (speaking for myself again) don't want to guess and be wrong at what motivates my dog so I use what's natural to her. If the dog associates me with her food, double bonus for me.


I don't have to guess to find out what motivates my dogs. I spend more than enough time with them to know what they enjoy and what they don't. It's those things that they enjoy, they find rewarding, and thus act great as a reward in training. I know my dogs enjoy my company, if they didn't they wouldn't follow me from room to room, ask for cuddles, or bring me their toys. They'd be happier in their own worlds or playing with eachother. I know they enjoy food, who doesn't? But I also know they enjoy me praising them and petting them and playing with them. These things are rewards I can dish out at ANY time no matter where I am, unlike food. Therefore, to me, it's a more reliable resource. I personally also believe my dog is more reliable if he gets these things as a reward _because_ they are reliably always there. It wasn't until I started trying to phase out treats with Coal that he suddenly started ignoring me because he learned this reward was no longer always there so really, what's in it for him?



> Reinforcers don't have to be treats. It can be anything that gets the behavior. Sniffing a dog's butt can be reinforcing to many dogs and can be used to train in behaviors. In fact, this is exactly how a positive trainer moves away from food rewards...they use life rewards. You're attempting to do the same thing, but just not using the primary motivator for dogs, their food.


This is exactly my point though; other things can be used as reinforcers so why not just use them from the start? Why spend more time phasing out a previous reward that was actually more rewarding to the dog in the first place than your new reward. If I were trained this way I'd be holding out for the good stuff once it was taken away... However if my reward that I always knew I enjoyed was never taken away, I wouldn't have a problem.



> Don't take this the wrong way, but Coal is not the bone head here.  All the dancing around, you inadvertently reinforced, and the guessing has more to do with him not understanding your cues. The mechanical skill in dog training is very important, and much of your dog's excess behavior can be cleaned up by improving your mechanical skill. I'm not criticizing you here, this is a common problem with many dog trainers, and it often leads them into believing such and such a method isn't working. Believe it or not, there are camps offered to help dog trainers improve their mechanical skill, and guess what species of animal is used as the subject... It's not dogs, it's chickens.


How do you know if I inadvertently reinforced the dancing behavior? Were you watching me train my dog?
I must admit I honestly don't remember exactly what I did when training Coal before he started doing the guess work because I have a pretty poor memory (plus I'd probably be inhuman if I could remember every last detail from that long ago) and it was about 4-5 years ago that I was teaching him via this method, so you could very well be right. But I wouldn't say you are or your aren't because you weren't there watching my every move.

This is also why I keep training logs/blogs now. So I can look back and "see" what I did and didn't do a little clearer than I would be able to without them. If I'd had training blogs/logs back then I'd be able to look back and maybe see the mistakes I made easier.

I've been through a lot of different training methods with Coal, and I admit I've screwed up with several and because we've used so many different methods over the past 6 years I'm sure that's been pretty confusing to him. I apologize to my ol' boy for that  and am trying with what I know now to correct behaviors I may have accidently reinforced or behaviors I've missed or things I've trained poorly. It's a lot harder work now, and because he's reliable to the point that we function from day to day it isn't the number one thing on my list. I don't want to make the same mistakes with Linkin though. I expect perfection from Linkin and we work towards that during every session. When I say I expect perfection; I don't mean I expect him to be robot, because obviously he's not. But I do expect more from him than I do from Coal.

You gota give me some credit; I was 15 when I got Coal and have learned a LOT since then. If I could do it all over again know what I know now, I would have trained him very differently from the start (heck, I would do a lot of things differently lol). As a human I know I'm capable of error, and as a Trainer I know there's always room for improvement if a previous method has failed. I'm always looking for holes in my own training and figuring out and learning how to make things better.

I think one things for sure though; I will always strongly believe there HAS to be balance in training. Training should never be a chore but you should never loose sight of the fact that some day this training COULD save your dogs life, and that, to me, is pretty serious. So yeah, I expect my dogs to be reliable, and so why shouldn't they expect me to be reliable in the praise I give them?


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

DogGoneGood said:


> I would never say it doesn't have a place in the world of dog training, but I, in general, I don't use treats to train. I think one of the problems is that there are too many trainers out there who are teaching these click and treat type methods and don't quite understand how it works in the first place. There are probably just as many of those trainers as there are trainers who are yanking on dogs and when the dog complies out of fear they say it's trained
> 
> I say this because when I first started to really get into training when I was about 12 or 13 the only option in town were "positive trainers". I took several different obedience courses (and an agility course that used the same principals) with two different dogs I owned in that time and was never given an explination as to how to phase out treats. I actually had to really dig for that information on my own.
> 
> ...


I am commenting here simply because I just read your other thread on using the shock collar. The only way I could teach my dog recall is with treats. Every single time he recalls to me, even 2 years later, he still gets a treat. I want him to always feel rewarded for coming to me, even if he is far, far away on the trail with his nose in a pile of smelly crap. His recall is as close to 100% as you can say, he has never failed to come to me, and I think feeding him every time is a guarantee that he will decide that it is worth it to him EVERY time. Anyway, I ask him to do hundred of behaviors every day, with no treat, it's just that recall is so much harder, and so much more important, you may want to consider rewarding to achieve your goal.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

I do reward for a recall; I just use a different kind of reward. I can't carry food with me all the time and I want my dogs recall to be reliable. Like I said, if I can't be reliable in the reward I give, why should my dog be reliable to come to me?

If I start a new job and over time I get better at it and more consistant and my boss congratulates me and gives me a big cheque I'm more likely to work harder at it or, at the very least, the same consistancy. Now if I get to be 100% consistant and one week my boss gives me the congratulations but not the cheque, do you think I'm going to work as hard next week?

No, because my favorite reward has been taken away.

If, on the other hand, I've never had that reward and have always been simply working for that congratulations then how am I suppose to know any different? That congratulations is reliable and ALWAYS there.

I just don't really like using a reward I can't ALWAYS have with me, as my main motivation in training.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

DGD - You don't want to rely on having treats on you all of the time, but you're okay carrying around the threat of punishment for disobedience by having it strapped around your dog's neck? What if the collar falls off, or the device breaks, or the battery is fried, or the dog runs out of range again? Wouldn't that be the same scenerio as the best treat not being there every time causing a complete break down of training? Why not vary the reward just like a good boss should in your example? Nobody's performance will ever be 100%. My dogs will work for food as well as play and praise. Some of my dogs had to be trained to like to tug, fetch, chase, or even to like to be petted. Some I had to work with for them to like food as a reward. My dogs are also work for life rewards (ex. they may get released to go sniff whatever it was I called them away from). They know they will always get SOMETHING for doing as I cue and I try to make it as wonderful as I possibly can even though I don't (usually) walk around with a slab of filet minon in my pocket. By preventing them from rehearsing undesirable behaviors and building on their understanding of what I want them to do by making it rewarding for them I have trained my dogs to gamble because it always pays off and sometimes it pays off BIG.


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## Chuckles (Sep 20, 2008)

Anyone who thinks positive training always works should meet my uncle's English bulldog whose only goal in life appears to be sleeping as much as possible. So much so that even eating is clearly a chore to him. If you want to give him a treat while he is laying down, it better be within reaching distance as he won't get up for it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Chuckles said:


> Anyone who thinks positive training always works should meet my uncle's English bulldog whose only goal in life appears to be sleeping as much as possible. So much so that even eating is clearly a chore to him. If you want to give him a treat while he is laying down, it better be within reaching distance as he won't get up for it.


Sleep = Rest = Treat = Reinforcer. Rest reinforces napping behavior. I see this as positive reinforcement working, don't you?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DGD
Here is something for you to try while training, I did notice you mentioned keeping a log of your work and I have mentioned many times on forum about a daily training journal. To police up your mechanical skills on training use a camcorder and record sessions I started this many years ago VHS-C camcorder. The camcorder mounted on a tripod. with me it was easy to do as I did my obedience work in a 45 by 63 ft bldg. You may surprise yourself when you view your timing at corrections or rewards and also for heeling work what your dog is doing that you may not even notice when walking etc. My own personal experience found that it was helpful producing a finished product quicker.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

DogGoneGood said:


> I do reward for a recall; I just use a different kind of reward. I can't carry food with me all the time and I want my dogs recall to be reliable. Like I said, if I can't be reliable in the reward I give, why should my dog be reliable to come to me?
> 
> If I start a new job and over time I get better at it and more consistant and my boss congratulates me and gives me a big cheque I'm more likely to work harder at it or, at the very least, the same consistancy. Now if I get to be 100% consistant and one week my boss gives me the congratulations but not the cheque, do you think I'm going to work as hard next week?
> 
> ...


Every day when I take my dog for his off-leash run, I put on my shoes and put a treat in my pocket. Not so hard to do. It was just a suggestion on how to improve your dog's recall since what you have been doing hasn't been working.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

DogGoneGood said:


> I want my dog to work for me because he thinks I'm awesome, not because I'm a vending machine




I hear this sort of comment a lot - not picking on you, just picking on the idea here.

Do you do your job because you think your boss is awesome? Or because you get a check every 1-2 weeks?


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Well, one reason that you may see the vending machine problem< DGD, is that it sounds like you don't understand variable reinforcement schedules.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Your dog may enjoy your company, but what exactly does "your company" entail?

Affectionate greeting.
Petting.
Tug games.
Cuddling.
Attention.

All of these things are resources. They are resources just like treats are. The philosophy of "I don't want to be a vending machine" just doesn't hold water, because you're still vending out resources, just not food. Every dog has an individual priority list of what is the highest value reinforcer for them. Many dogs place food as the top. Most dogs place food well above anything that I mentioned under what makes up your company. Very rare indeed is the dog that will truly be more motivated and have behaviours more reinforced by your praise than food. Knowingly disregarding the motivational and reinforcing power of food is a serious flaw in training. A good trainer will use anything and everything they can to reinforce, and keep it changing. If you are a one trick horse and just pump out food all the time, yeah it doesn't work so well. If you treat during one session, use tug as a reward the next, make the dog sit-stay for 2 minutes before hopping up on the couch to cuddle after that, and so on, you will greatly increase the likelihood that these motivators stay very strong.

Dogs listen to us and like us because we control ALL resources. This includes your attention. This includes food. This includes releasing pressure from a choke collar. This includes freedom to sniff a marked tree. Don't ignore the power of any one of these resources.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

LOL, I just got negative reputation points for my comments on this thread. I think that is hysterical. I have a hound mix who I can call off a deer in the woods LOL. Nothing I said was the least bit disrespectful but, I apparently hit someone's nerve.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Okay wow, I'm going to answer everyone the best I can...

pamperedpups - No, I don't use correction tools for life. They are eventually phased out. Yes, I understand treats are phased out as well, but so far pretty much everyone who uses treats has mentioned how they still carry bits of kibble or whatever in their pocket when they take their dogs out. I've done the treats in the pocket thing and for one I find it kind of gross and unhygenic to have FOOD in my pocket, regardless if it's food that has an incredible shelf life or not.
I don't NEVER use treats, I've said that before. I use them on occasion as a kind of bonus or when I'm first teaching something new I'll use them as extra insentive and to help the dog "get it". I even use a clicker on the hard things that I need a cue for the good behavior  Having a training tool for an amount of time that helps teach the dog what not to do once they have a reasonable understanding of the command, is a little different than always having to remember to put some kibble in my pocket when I go for a walk (regardless of whether or not I actually decide to use it as a reward during that time). I've had times where I have no place to store those treats (no pockets etc.) and I'd rather my dog be satisfied with me praising him and/or playing with him during those times rather than come just close enough to realize I actually don't have a treat and then run away (which Coal did years ago).

wvasko - You're right, a video camera helps a lot! I use my dad's digital camera from time to time for this purpose... unfortunately it only records about 2 minutes worth before the card is full and I found it very disruptive to have to go load that 2 minutes worth onto the comp and then go continue training. I need to invest in a better digital camera, and have been meaning to and wanting to but just don't have the money for it right now  So for now the occasional 2 minutes of film and my training logs are what will do. I should try the camera for the e-collar training though, I'm sure that'll help me out a lot to catch any mistakes I make.

jesirose - Actually, I'm my own boss right now... but I get your point. My example wasn't whether or not my boss was awesome, it was the reward the boss gives. The verbal praise vs the cheque. If I started working and not understanding what a cheque was and always worked for verbal praise, I'd be content with that. If I started working and got the verbal praise AND the cheque, learned I enjoy the cheque more, and then one week the cheque isn't there and instead just the verbal praise was, I'd be less likely to work harder the next week.


Addressing the "vending machine" comment I made:

I wasn't refering to the act of me "dishing out a reward" like a vending machine, but rather was refering to the fact that vending machines contain FOOD. I have no problem dishing out praise! I hope no one thinks I never give my dogs praise! They get praise far more than they get any corrections! I just perfer that source of praise to be something I KNOW 100% I will ALWAYS have one me; and that's physical and verbal praise. It's something I can never forget to take with me or run out of.



MegaMuttMom said:


> LOL, I just got negative reputation points for my comments on this thread. I think that is hysterical. I have a hound mix who I can call off a deer in the woods LOL. Nothing I said was the least bit disrespectful but, I apparently hit someone's nerve.


I'm sorry you got negative points, as from what I've read you've only directed at me and I didn't have a problem with what you said, so why would someone else take offence to it? I was slightly ANNOYED (and I mean that in a non offensive way the best I can ), but not offended. I'm only annoyed because it gets a little tiring after a while trying to explain my POV to people about treats all the time, as it does come up a lot.  So it's not even a personal annoyance towards you, honest!

I appreciate the suggestion, honestly. I understand where you're coming from. It's just that I've tried the treat route and don't like it as my number one reward source. In fact, I had one incident in the summer where I took some nice smelly hot dogs outside (Linkin LOVES them) and Linkin paid attention for two seconds and then, regardless of the fact I still had hot dog left, took off like a shot. So I know food is not his number one motivator. If it was he would have at LEAST stuck around until the hot dog was all gone!



I'm not going to argue whether or not positive training works. Of course it does! If it didn't it wouldn't be a method of choice. I'm not going to argue it doesn't work for anyone's dog here because I'm sure it has. It's my personal choice not to use treats, this doesn't mean I don't use positive training when it's called for; I simply don't use a food resource as my main reward! I just ask people don't judge me simply because I perfer to use a different reward source and because I also use corrections when they are called for. I don't make judgements on other peoples training methods if they work for that dog being trained. I've tried the treat thing and it didn't work. WHY it didn't work may be up for debate, but we'll never have an answer to it because I don't record my daily life and every last second of training sessions. It's just a personal choice not to give out food as a main reward source, I don't think that's so bad and I really don't see what why it needs to be discussed in full. If I were never praising my dogs and beating them I think everyone would be completely intitled to address my "training" methods lol but simply because I choose not to use treats as a main reward source isn't really a big deal.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

What are reputation points? How does one go about viewing one's own points? Are they like ebay feedbacks? Can we redeem them for cash and prizes?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

MegaMuttMom I surely have no idea why anybody would lay a rude on you except sometimes there are people who are not operating with a full deck. 
DGG
I don't understand all this silly stuff as you have said, as I have said that positive methods work. There is absolutely no argument at all with that statement, the problem is they don't work all the time on all dogs. A dog 200 yards away and a big old pheasant flushes wild in front of him and he must stop to flush I guarantee you could parachute treats to the dog and he will not be there when the chute lands. Trying to out a dog with a good hard bite hanging on to an agitator's arm is not going to work waving weiners in front of them. megamutt said she had a dog that she can call off a deer( I believe she does cause she says so) I just hope she or other viewers of this thread do not think that all dogs will be called off a deer with 100% treat work. A **** dog that takes to running deer at night will not be cured with treats. No one type of training is 100%. I just talked to a woman who has an English Bulldog 18mths old who when people enter the home he immediately runs up and starts biting a their legs. She has an older bulldog that was trained by the come to your home trainer type. She had some type of certification. When lady called her she came out took one look at the dog and was overwhelmed and bowed out quickly. I told the woman find a behaviorist and if that did not work then call me. Maybe treats will help this dog but if that's the case why did not the trainer start throwing treats at the dog. This has been a good thread (I still don't understand the rude on megamutt)


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> What are reputation points? How does one go about viewing one's own points? Are they like ebay feedbacks? Can we redeem them for cash and prizes?


Reputation points have only one value...the more you have, the more beer you have to buy for Grandpaw Ron's birthday party. 

Funny thing is...Grandpaw Ron probably has the most reputation points.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Reputation points have only one value...the more you have, the more beer you have to buy for Grandpaw Ron's birthday party.
> 
> Funny thing is...Grandpaw Ron probably has the most reputation points.


You're running a close second, actually. You can do it! Kick his butt! Don't mind Grandpaw Ron's shotgun! It'll only give you a flesh wound!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

So if I annoy enough people, I get invited to a birthday party? Is that negative reinforcement, or positive punishment, or what?



wvasko said:


> A **** dog that takes to running deer at night will not be cured with treats. No one type of training is 100%.


And a dog can meet an untimely death, in a number of ways, if he can't kick a deer addiction.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> So if I annoy enough people, I get invited to a birthday party? Is that negative reinforcement, or positive punishment, or what?


You can get good or bad reputation points.


Not sure if it's more appropriate to use the bad ones for buying beer or the good ones... I guess it depends on if you like Grandpaw Ron


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> So if I annoy enough people, I get invited to a birthday party? Is that negative reinforcement, or positive punishment, or what?


Everyone is invited...except for maybe a few unnamed, banned members.

It depends on whether you find the buying of beer reinforcing/punishing, or the drinking of beer reinforcing/punishing.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

How did this thread get on reputation points 

What are reputation points 

*Tess wonders if DF is using reinforcement training on posters*


I've been thinking about this thread today for some reason and I guess I wanted to put this idea out there.

Do most trainers start with "positive" training before changing to a more appropriate method after a dog's personality/temperment is assessed? (especially if the current method isn't particularly working)

With people, it would be wise to start with the least evasive, most enjoyable method before you move to something more structured, restrictive, and productive. Generally, this is to prevent avoidable risk. 

Why start off with something that creates unpleasent experiences first?


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

JustTess said:


> How did this thread get on reputation points
> 
> What are reputation points
> 
> ...


I can't speak for all trainers... but I think the answer would be yes. Training should be enjoyable for both dog and owner, and when first learning something new there isn't much point in being negative (ie: giving corrections) if the dog has no idea what you're asking from him, right? So it makes no sense to introduce corrections of any kind when first teaching something.

If by positive you mean treats, then the answer is not necessarily.

But refering to "positive" as the term is meant to mean (something the dog enjoys) then I don't think there's a good trainer out there who doesn't start things off being as positive as possible.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DogGoneGood said:


> I can't speak for all trainers... but I think the answer would be yes. Training should be enjoyable for both dog and owner, and when first learning something new there isn't much point in being negative (ie: giving corrections) if the dog has no idea what you're asking from him, right? So it makes no sense to introduce corrections of any kind when first teaching something.
> 
> If by positive you mean treats, then the answer is not necessarily.
> 
> But refering to "positive" as the term is meant to mean (something the dog enjoys) then I don't think there's a good trainer out there who doesn't start things off being as positive as possible.


Well not all trainers. Time constraints do not allow for niceties and a light pop with a prong collar tells me where I have to go next on training schedule. (of course nobody has ever accused me of being a good trainer) Oh am I gonna get beat up for this. But life is tough and then we die.


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## pattymac (Oct 11, 2008)

I'm definately going to have to go back through and really read all these posts. I didn't expect to have such a discussion going on this topic.

Wvasko, I certainly wouldn't beat you up!! I certainly value your advice! You may use corrections in your training but it sounds like those corrections are used fairly and with good cause. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that and are fine in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Well not all trainers. Time constraints do not allow for niceties and a light pop with a prong collar tells me where I have to go next on training schedule. (of course nobody has ever accused me of being a good trainer) Oh am I gonna get beat up for this. But life is tough and then we die.


I get what you're saying Wvasko, and while I've never actually seen your training practices, I have a feeling you're a good trainer 

I generally give an introduction to a training collar at the first lesson but explain to the owner that the leash and collar should be used to guide the dog, not correct it, until the dog "gets it". I show through demonstration how to teach the command, hand the dog to them and watch them do it for the rest of the lesson so I can give the owner any tips or let them know if they're doing something wrong etc. I also explain the signs they'll see once the dog is "getting it". Usually it's by the next lesson (a week later) that corrections can start to be given for that command that was learned the week before.

I would love to be able to not use corrections at all unless the dog was solid with the command and simply refusing to do it, but like you said, time doesn't always allow that. But I do make sure to drill into the owners head how to teach the command in a way that it's easy on the dog and I'm constantly reminding them "praise your dog!" because they tend to forget that sometimes.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DogGoneGood said:


> I get what you're saying Wvasko, and while I've never actually seen your training practices, I have a feeling you're a good trainer
> 
> I generally give an introduction to a training collar at the first lesson but explain to the owner that the leash and collar should be used to guide the dog, not correct it, until the dog "gets it". I show through demonstration how to teach the command, hand the dog to them and watch them do it for the rest of the lesson so I can give the owner any tips or let them know if they're doing something wrong etc. I also explain the signs they'll see once the dog is "getting it". Usually it's by the next lesson (a week later) that corrections can start to be given for that command that was learned the week before.
> 
> I would love to be able to not use corrections at all unless the dog was solid with the command and simply refusing to do it, but like you said, time doesn't always allow that. But I do make sure to drill into the owners head how to teach the command in a way that it's easy on the dog and I'm constantly reminding them "praise your dog!" because they tend to forget that sometimes.


Ahhhhhhhhh yes I remember the days a long time ago when I had to holler at clients "your other left foot" I finally decided training the dog without the client was much easier on the dogs and me. It was after I chased a person and dog off the place for stupidity reasons(the person)not the dog. I personally think you should get hazardous pay duty trying to work with people one on one or a class.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Ahhhhhhhhh yes I remember the days a long time ago when I had to holler at clients "your other left foot" I finally decided training the dog without the client was much easier on the dogs and me. It was after I chased a person and dog off the place for stupidity reasons(the person)not the dog. I personally think you should get hazardous pay duty trying to work with people one on one or a class.


LOL, yeah sometimes it's a little aggrivating... but so far I've had pretty good luck with clients. My last client was like a dream, she listened to everything I said, asked lots of questions and was very willing to learn to train her dog because it was the dogs "last chance", but I could tell she really did care for the dog.

I'm still a newbie trainer, and am always learning myself, so I may end up with the same conclusion as you over time, but for now I'm staying optimistic and giving people the benefit of the doubt


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Ahhhhhhhhh yes I remember the days a long time ago when I had to holler at clients "your other left foot" I finally decided training the dog without the client was much easier on the dogs and me. It was after I chased a person and dog off the place for stupidity reasons(the person)not the dog. I personally think you should get hazardous pay duty trying to work with people one on one or a class.


Back when I was a pup, I did some pretty impressive work with the family's Great Dane (she was easy; there never was a dog more motivated to please). I also had good results with a neighbor's Bull Mastiff (who was a bit of a bully). After 2 successes in a row, I thought I'd like to do dog training for a living. My father (who's wisdom I didn't fully appreciate until later in life) advised me that dog training is a customer service business--and that the dog's ain't the customers. He suggested that I should work on my people skills, before committing to that path. I give you guys and gals all the credit in the world for being able to deal with owners.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Back when I was a pup, I did some pretty impressive work with the family's Great Dane (she was easy; there never was a dog more motivated to please). I also had good results with a neighbor's Bull Mastiff (who was a bit of a bully). After 2 successes in a row, I thought I'd like to do dog training for a living. My father (who's wisdom I didn't fully appreciate until later in life) advised me that dog training is a customer service business--and that the dog's ain't the customers. He suggested that I should work on my people skills, before committing to that path. I give you guys and gals all the credit in the world for being able to deal with owners.


Well keep one thought in mind, it was not the people's fault at all because people are people. It was totally my fault, I was the one lacking the skills and patience to handle customers. Now I do see a lot of the opposite stuff so called trainers that can convince the people how good they are and make all kinds of excuses/stories about why or what the dog is doing that is not right and it's not their fault. It's the dog's fault, it's the weather's fault, it's the man in the moons fault. To me this is fraud.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

DogGoneGood said:


> jesirose - Actually, I'm my own boss right now... but I get your point. My example wasn't whether or not my boss was awesome, it was the reward the boss gives. The verbal praise vs the cheque. If I started working and not understanding what a cheque was and always worked for verbal praise, I'd be content with that. If I started working and got the verbal praise AND the cheque, learned I enjoy the cheque more, and then one week the cheque isn't there and instead just the verbal praise was, I'd be less likely to work harder the next week.


Thus the variable rewards. You slowly phase out the rewards and randomly give them. The dog never knows when it's coming so they work harder to try to earn it. 

People IMO think too much for their own good and can't always follow that sort of thing.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

jesirose said:


> People IMO think too much for their own good and can't always follow that sort of thing.


haha, this is probably very true.

Ever since the day I decided to live more like my dogs (live each day as it comes rather than frett about the past or the future) I've been a lot happier person. There's a lot we could learn from our canine companions 


People skills in dog training is pretty important. I always lacked people skills up until I got my second job at a computer store (my first job was painting, so didn't really have to deal with the public). I always told my parents how one of the reasons I wanted to train dogs was because I understand them a lot better than I understand people. It wasn't until I went to Canada West Canine Centre and was told it was mandatory to help out with the obedience classes (which I originally thought would be so easy) that I realized how important those people skills are when you're trying to train dogs. You really aren't just training the dog - you're moreso training the people to train their dog!

I have no problem telling my clients when they've screwed up  I actually learned this skill through dog forums! I learned how to polietly tell someone they made a mistake and explain how to then correct it without it coming off as an attack, because I was apart of a forum that a lot of people used the attack method and I learned first hand how it doesn't help anyone - even if that was the attackers motive.

Back on topic - I really don't understand why there's always the same argument between the "Positives" and the "negatives". At least from my experience; it's been that both sides are aiming for the same result and both sides work for the dogs they train. All dogs are different, if there was a "one method fits all" we wouldn't have the huge variety of different methods and tools available that there is!


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Well not all trainers. Time constraints do not allow for niceties and a light pop with a prong collar tells me where I have to go next on training schedule. (of course nobody has ever accused me of being a good trainer) Oh am I gonna get beat up for this. But life is tough and then we die.


I would agree with this. Some dogs do not respond to praise or treats at all. Given a time frame, chosing the best method to get a dog to perform properly saves anguish. A misbehaving dog IMO, is asking for structure and discipline before it hurts themselves or others.




DogGoneGood said:


> Back on topic - I really don't understand why there's always the same argument between the "Positives" and the "negatives". At least from my experience; it's been that both sides are aiming for the same result and both sides work for the dogs they train. All dogs are different, if there was a "one method fits all" we wouldn't have the huge variety of different methods and tools available that there is!


I like to think it's a combination of both given the circumstance and situation. Most importantly, if a person builds a positive relationship with their dog, it would resolve many issues and make training perhaps easier.


I just don't see positive / negative training being "black and white"


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

JustTess said:


> I like to think it's a combination of both given the circumstance and situation. Most importantly, if a person builds a positive relationship with their dog, it would resolve many issues and make training perhaps easier.
> 
> 
> I just don't see positive / negative training being "black and white"


Honestly, I don't either. Hense the quotations.

I was refering moreso to trainers who are being paid to train a dog in a specific amount of time.

As far as the average owner goes - yes, there needs to be a positive, good, respectful relationship between dog and owner to accomplish any kind of training; no matter what method they choose to use.

Actually, it's helpful if a trainer has that too, but there isn't always enough time to bond with the dog and create a relationship like that.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Everyone is invited...except for maybe a few unnamed, banned members.
> 
> It depends on whether you find the buying of beer reinforcing/punishing, or the drinking of beer reinforcing/punishing.


But let's get back to the beer.....Isn't buying the beer and drinking the beer both reinforcing and punishing?

buying:
reinforcing because of the anticipation of the happy times i will have when I drink it. punishing because of the dent it puts in my wallet. And because I might have to share it with someone.

drinking:
reinforcing because...well, surely I don't need to explain that. We all like to wear funny hats every once in a while.  punishing because...well, that's obvious, too -- hangover, alcoholism, behaviorial issues, DUI's, etc.

So the moral of the story is: everyone's right. Now let's drink beer and ponder this some more...


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

DogGoneGood said:


> I want my dog to work for me because he thinks I'm awesome, not because I'm a vending machine  Now this doesn't mean I don't ever use treats or wouldn't ever use treats. I do use them sporadically when teaching something more difficult or for like the first lesson of something.
> 
> So they deffinately have a place. I won't dismiss them because of my personal prefrences, if it will work to to help a dog learn quicker, easier and more effectively than not using them would. The same principal applies to my use of training collars for correction. I don't use them unless I think it's necessary and they're not a _solution_ but rather a _tool_ to aid in training.
> 
> I always have, and always will believe that all dogs learn differently and that there always has to be some kind of balance. There's a place for every tool you just have to figure out where it is and whether or not it's with YOUR dog, regardless of whether or not it worked on every other dog you know.



DGG you covered how I feel right on the nail head!!! 

I have had a couple of dogs who wouldn't work for treats either, so positive training using treats soley, is not always a given for every dog. My current puppy is actually one who could care-less about treats on a 'most day' basis...some days he will take various treats, but for the most part I use one of his favorite toys (training time is the only time it comes out) to keep him motivated; it's also more convenient, as it's less messy to carry and I can just stuff it back in my pocket, without it falling apart!!! Lol! I also like the whole 'toy' thing for my small puppy, as I don't have to bend over to give it to him, like I do with treats; my back is not the greatest, so one has no idea how much nicer it is to be able to toss a toy sporadically through out training time, than have to reach down to give a treat all the time.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I like treats because I can throw them. I am extremely hands off when working with dogs except when they are leashed. I use no physical correction. I also use a variety of rewards...one of their favs is human spit lol...seriously...they love it..


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I like treats because I can throw them. I am extremely hands off when working with dogs except when they are leashed. I use no physical correction. I also use a variety of rewards...one of their favs is human spit lol...seriously...they love it..


Do you.... like.... erm.... spit in their face? "Good girl!!! PTEW!"

Or like.... hock up a hanger and let it droop down to them? I'm seriously just baffled at how you use human spit as a treat...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

trumpetjock said:


> Do you.... like.... erm.... spit in their face? "Good girl!!! PTEW!"
> 
> Or like.... hock up a hanger and let it droop down to them? I'm seriously just baffled at how you use human spit as a treat...



I stick my finger in my mouth, get it wet and then let them lick it. or I spit on the ground.

I was stuck without any kind of reward one day and needed a down from Bolo cuz this dog was running right at us and so I blanked told her down and then the idea popped into my head...she always obsessively want to try and lick the inside of my mouth....why shouldn't a variation of that be a good reward?

it worked.


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## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Wow. That's pretty intense zim! Rocky obsessively wants to lick the inside of my mouth right when we wake up. 

Especially if I've been drinking the night before. It's like the worse it tastes to me, the more he wants it!


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## superdogzies (Jan 10, 2009)

Chuckles said:


> IMHO. Positive training = part persistence + part wishful thinking + part dumb luck


Hmmm, Chuckles, wow, positive training works great for me. My dog is food motivated, but it's not just food, he live for cuddles and praise.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

trumpetjock said:


> Wow. That's pretty intense zim! Rocky obsessively wants to lick the inside of my mouth right when we wake up.
> 
> Especially if I've been drinking the night before. It's like the worse it tastes to me, the more he wants it!



You know dogs lol...the nastier and more disgusting the more they love it..and correct me if im wrong but isn't licking mouths a sort of bonding ritual among at least some canines?

I like it because no matter what I have a tangible reward with me at all times...I don't use it often and if I have something else I will usually use that instead...so I can maintain it as a higher value reward that requires exceptional behavior to win...

I use pretty much everything as rewards...food, toys, play with flirtpole and running time, spit...even pieces of trash...they like something ten times as much if they see me pull it out of the trashcan lol...


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