# Training age? When is too old?



## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

first post! haha.

Hi, im not a new dog owner at all. My family used to breed Cocker Spaniels at our old house, but when we moved to a farm, the coyotes got the best of a few of them and combined with the deer they chase, cows they torment, and the nature of the breed being hunting dogs, we were forced to keep them in a pin unless we are outside. We decided small dogs are not a good idea for this farm. My fiancee has also recently moved in with me until we get back on our feet, so we decided to purchase our first dog which we wanted to be a Golden Retriever, we couldnt find one. But we ran across a Golden Retriever/Labrador Retriever mix. Now i normally dont go for mixed breeds, never have owned one. However, we fell in love with little Troy. He is our only dog that enjoys the unrestricted freedom of the 50 acre farm and pond. We never cage him or tie him, we only crate him when i hear the coyotes getting abnormally restless. However, he's lonely and i also promised my fiancee when we got Troy that i would get her a dog soon. Troy is 6 months old. Before even searching she said she wanted either a Border Collie or Australian Shepherd. No Border Collies are in our area(southern virginia), but there are several australian shepherd breeders. After searching for hours upon hours, we reached a dead end. no puppies will be ready until the end of september at the earliest, and they will all be well over $350. as a young couple we dont have a lot of money so that plus shots and the possible illness of a puppy is a real stretch for us but we'll do it. 

Now to get to the point, i just found a female black tri aussie for $150 from a very respectable local breeder. The problem? She is 9 months old (but as a plus im guessing this means she has all her shots, so thats a plus for my financial part). I have never had a dog this old. Keeping in mind we intend to let this dog enjoy her freedom without being crated or caged, is it a good idea to purchase a dog of this age? is it possible (likely?) a dog of this age can learn its name, its new owners, and realize this is home. Troy is smart and has learned he cant venture out but so far because of the dangers of the farm. Im worried a dog of this age might not understand. So, good idea, bad idea?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

9 Months? Too old? Hardly.

I adopted/rescued Wally when he was 14 months, and knowledge has been stuffed in his head. 

I think a dog can be trained as long as he's alive and not suffering from any kind of health issue. 

I wouldn't let age deter me from this pup (9 months is still a puppy) especially for fear of being too old to train. Young is probably better (less time for ingrained habits to form, more time to get with your training method, etc) but I wouldn't think 9 months is too old for anything really. Whether or not he'll grasp things as fast Troy depends on other factors, but if you're consistent and teach him not to venture out or what should be left alone, etc, I don't see why the prospective dog can't pick it up.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I'll try to make it clear as I can.

Your pup is 6 months old. It is not in his instinct to wander far from home at this age. It is not going to be until he is at least 1-2 years old that he will really start venturing far from home. If you are extraordinarily lucky, he may be the kind of dog that stays close to home and avoids the coyotes/farm dangers at that age.

If you cannot afford a second puppy getting sick, my first recommendation would be that you do not get a second puppy so that you can have funds for when your first dog gets sick. Not if, but when. He will get sick, he will have vet bills in his life. If you couldn't afford it with a 2nd dog, then you don't need a 2nd dog.

Frankly, it is pretty silly to think that a 9 month old dog can't learn his name/owners. You can train a 10+ year old dog easily. Age really isn't a factor in learning. What IS silly, however, is thinking you can train a dog to "realize this is home" in the way you mean it. Dogs will consider the place they live in as their den, that is true. What is not true, and what is unnatural for a dog, is that they will stay by it without supervision. It is in a dog's nature to wander, you are hoping for a statue more than you are hoping for a dog.

Having a dog from puppyhood is no guarantee that he will stick by you. The reason your lab sticks by you is 90% because of his age, but you do realize that Retrievers are hunting dogs too? I'm not sure why you think your current puppy will be any different from the cockers that died because of your poor ownership and unrealistic idea of what dogs are. And heck, a Aussie? A herding breed? Why do you think they be the same as your cockers? Aussies have even more energy than a Cocker.

My advice? Don't get another dog. Wait until your current dog is 3 years old. If he survives until 3 years old, maybe consider a 2nd dog. If he dies, which he likely will, then rethink owning dogs altogether.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Um... wow.. there is so much wrong here it's not even funny. I have to agree with RBark as harsh as he may be, you'll be lucky if your current dog reaches 3 at this rate. It's not overly uncommon for coyotes to entice dogs to "play" with them, even larger labs, to lead them into the woods where the rest of the pack is waiting and they kill them. No dog should be off leash in an open area without supervision for their own safety and the safety of others (including neighbors livestock). Yes your neighbors still play a roll in it even on 50 acers of land. Dogs will and do travel that far in a day or more.

$350 for a puppy is very cheap, and yes you'll have to wait to get one from a breeder. Likely the breeders you are looking aren't aren't the greatest because if your current track record and your ideas I know of no good breeders that would give you a dog. It's just asking for the dog to die.

No Don't bring another dog into your home at least not now. No matter who I'm talking to I would NEVER recommend bringing another puppy into a house until your current one is at LEAST 1 year of age. At 6 months you still have TWO nasty puppy stages coming up and your going to need to put some time into him when it comes up. You have the dreaded teenage years where your dog will not want to listen to you at all, have a relapse in housebreaking, and it's also the time where they will want to do things on their own and where your more likely to have them get loose and run away. You also have another fear stage coming up where things that never scared your dog will.

You still have much to learn about country life and dogs in general. Focus on this current dog for now and in a year or so when you are over those stages and still have a dog, then get another dog. 

There is no age set where a dog stops learning. I adopted my first dog at 4 years of age and he was learning things daily. My current dog came to me at 1 year and 3 months old and is in better shape behavioral wise then he was when I got him. You CAN teach an old dog new tricks, just sometimes with old timers (7yrs +) it just takes longer to do so.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

I must apologize for the shorthand, I'm on my phone. Ok first off I think I'm a bit misunderstood here. I dnt leave my dogs unattended outside all day. And this farm isn't a death trap. The year the attacks happened was abnormal. They were getting out of control and a bounty was placed on the. We killed tons of the little bastards. Now the packs are smaller and less abundant. And ill add coyotes around here are actually a bit smaller than a cocker. They dnt get very big in this area. They didn't bother attacking till there was only one small male. Also, the other attacks occurred while the animals were pinned up or n the stables, completely 'safe'. Around here, there is no leash law, they run free in virtually every home. I have never had problems with dogs running like I have lately. These cockers grew up n a fenced in yard. They think they can stray off as far as they want, but here there is no fence. We spend tons of time with these dogs. The one that grew up here doesn't run. The others try to dig out, one actually dug through barbwire we buried under the fence. I just didn't understand that at all, and as soon as they're let out of the fence they make a bee line away from the house. They dnt listen they just run as hard as they can, I understand this because it was a tradition they started when we had a fenced in yard, but it was okay then. I assure you I care more about my dogs than to just let them freelance and hope they come back, I dnt really think its fair to assume that after I've made one post in these forums. But I do understand what you're saying. I never noticed these puppy stages you are mentioning bc I was so young when we got our breeding dogs. And the puppies are gone before they hit the stages. As for financial stuff, of course I have enough, I'm just making excuses because I'm cheap as hell haha. I assure you I'm not going to buy a dog and neglect it. I feel like maybe I just worded some things wrong here, but my questions did get answered and I thank you for that. We actually decided on a border collie however.

The whole point of this is not that every dog i get gets killed by coyotes and im trying different breeds until my luck gets better. that would be absurd. i was killing 2 coyotes a week for several months. others were trapping them reports of 2 per night. they have been thinned out. they were at a very dangerous level to where even animals in pins were at risk. Now everyone around here is paranoid, but the coyotes are near extinct from this area. im just thinking JUST IN CASE, ill get bigger dogs, plus now that were on a farm the border collie or shepherd would be fantastic help with the cattle. its just after these experiences ive had here with cockers, i just dont want to continue with this breed. im also alergic to dogs (yeah yeah yeah, dont even haze me for that), meaning they cant come in the house on carpet or ill be insanely allergic, so were looking at mostly outdoor dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well after reading OP's posts and not wanting to be rude, I'm just gonna hope Troy has a long life and I'm gone. Oh yes the dog is not too old to train.


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## Dobelove (Jun 17, 2010)

If I was locked outside 24/7 I would wander off too.

There are so many things wrong with this situation. All I am going to say is, no the puppy is not to old to learn.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

where else is he suppose to go? its either outside free, or outside in a pin. i really dont get what all is wrong here. i have a dog. i spend time with him, then i sleep inside at night. he sleeps outside, because he is a dog. i really just dont get what is so wrong with this situation. here in the south, its a completely normal thing to have a dog who free roams. infact its illegal to tie an animal in any way, leash laws dont exist, and pins have to be so large they arent even worth building. does everyone here keep their dogs on a leash 24/7? Dogs have always roamed free, its a very natural thing, and i think its ridiculous everyone thinks this is such an absurd thing. I want my dogs to roam, do what they want, and come home to eat. and they always have, except for when this area had the coyote problems. i had ONE dog be killed. thats it. this is being completely blown out of proportion, Troy is in no real danger.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Yes, most everyone here keeps their dogs leashed 24/7 or in a fenced in yard (If they don't they hear about it). The only time my dog runs free is when I know he is safe and I know I have a strong recall on him. Otherwise if we are in an area when I feel he'd be unsafe he's on leash. I have a 250ft leash that I use to use when I went down to the river for him to still be on leash and also I used it in wide open fields for safety. Now that he is reliable I don't have to use that lead anymore and he has free run in open fields and when we are out in the woods. At home or anywhere else he is behind a fence. Why? Because dogs are just dogs, they are use to roaming and will roam off. This is just not safe, even in the country. I hear it all the time about country folks complaining about the loose dogs in their area. Cars drive fast down the back dirt roads, too fast. Your dog could easily be hit.

There is a reason why Coyotes and Wolves hunt in packs, so they can take down larger prey. A small pack of 4 or 5 Coyotes can take on a larger dog. There would be a rough fight but it can and does happen. Heck even 2 on 1 your dog's odds are not that great. One dog being killed is too much. It's even worse because it was something you could have prevented if you kept your dog on a leash or behind a fence.

Dogs NEED exercise that's why you'll see me walking my dog every day. If they are just stuck in a yard they will want to escape, being stuck in a yard is so boring, BUT it's necessary to keep them safe. You have to give a dog and outlet for it's boredom. If you think your cockers were bad, wait until you BC starts getting bored. They are an extremely active breed of dog and are known for their brains. They MUST work EVERY DAY for them to be happy otherwise they will find ways to release that pent up energy and it will not be pretty. Even free roaming isn't enough exercise for dogs. You might as well think of them as being stuck in cages because they don't do much when your not around.

Plain and simple, rather you like it or not, yes Troy is in danger. Dogs have been domesticated to the point where they are IDIOTS for the most part when it comes to the wild. They rely on us for food, shelter, love, and protection. Some dogs do OK on their own, but they aren't hunters they are scavengers, which means if they do anything they are going to get into someone's garbage and there are many deadly things in the garbage. Dogs should NEVER be allowed free roam 24/7, it's just common sense. I'm all for training your dog so it can be off leash in safe areas, but when your not around that dog needs to be protected. You see a street, your dog see's road kill. It walks out into the middle of the street to go roll in that lovely smelling rotting flesh and a car comes speeding over a hill. The driver doesn't have time to stop and hits poor Troy. Or you have a neighbor with a female dog in heat. Troy travels over there following the females scent (male dogs can smell a female in heat over 4 miles away) that neighbor sees Troy going after his female and tries to shoo him off. Troy refuses and your neighbor grabs a gun and shoots Troy.

Those stories aren't far fetched, I've heard them before. Just because there isn't laws stating what you should or should not do, doesn't mean that you still should/shouldn't do them.

Honestly I think you are asking for HUGE trouble with adding a BC to your family. They shed a LOT, hyper beyond what you may think, not the best dogs unless you take a LOT of time to train them, and they NEED a job to do, not want NEED.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Well, this is the happiest response ive gotten so far. mostly because it seemed like you were making a point instead of being as offensive as possible. these things around here have become kindve a way of life, you make a good point, and i understand. People around here, the reason it happens because "everyone is doing it", and no one ever sees anything wrong with it. So instead of saying im a terrible dog owner, explain it to me for God's sakes. 

Not to make excuses, but Ozzy (the dog that was killed) refused to be caged. he was always trouble because we kept him along with his sister, they became impossibly close and we thought it was so cute until we realized it wasnt a good thing. they were inseperable. when the puppies were born he had to be seperated and he HATED it. then all of a sudden the two just began digging out of cages nonstop. (now that ive heard the "puppy teenage stages" thing i think i might understand that better now. i've never heard of that) We ended up placing Ozzy in a lot by himself, because he had become a danger to the other dogs. We tried everything, poured gravel around the perimeter of the fence, we spent time with him all the time, let other dogs visit with him every day, gave him treats to show it wasnt punishment, nothing worked. he dug out every night. Eventually we buried barbed wire 6 inches under the fence. I didnt like it, but Ozzy was putting himself in danger. The next day i was absolutely shocked to find a hole dug under the fence, with fur and blood and skin and meat all over the barbed wire. The dog had went straight through it like it was sand. We took him to the vet immediately to fix up his wounds. After that we decided we had no choice but to chain him to a post (something that is illegal and you will have your pet taken here if caught). He broke the chain, i repaired it, he broke the piece on his collar the next time. there was no fixing it. and i decided he's a lost cause, if he doesnt want to be here and he isnt happy, i cant keep him here, ill just see if he sticks around free roaming. he did. he stuck around and was an excellent guard dog for several months until one day he just disappeared. The neighbors claimed the night he disappeared they heard the coyotes tearing something up in the valley (our property no doubt he was protecting, he made patrols daily around the fence perimeter). soon after he died his sister went frantic and dug out every day to find him. eventually she was broken and stopped, realizing he brother is not coming back. however, i dont trust her, and i refused to let Troy in that fence to escape with them and be killed. because its not if, its when they get out. and they go straight for the highway. The extent those cockers have put us through is extraordinary. We've decided the farm is too dangerous for him, but we LOVE animals, and have always had them. Understand our situation.

As you can see i mentioned above, i was terrified about letting a dog out without a leash for even a second even when im outside, always have been. My dad is old fashioned and claims as a kid he always had a free roaming dog and it was fine and im overreacting. After Ozzy, i figured he was right, Ozzy always stuck around. So since the coyotes were killed off for the most part i figured its safe for Troy and he can handle himself. I talked myself into this, but after what you've said, i realize thats wrong. I've never actually heard anyone be AGAINST letting a dog free roam, infact around here if you dont let it free roam, you're ignorant and paranoid, and its damn near animal cruelty (politicians, politicians, sigh). I just decided i would train Troy to stay by the house. However, at this point he isnt fixed(all the cockers are females), and i still refuse to put him with the cockers, i just dont trust them. I had already begun making him a place in Ozzy's old cage, finally thought of a remedy to escape. Dug down around the cage and placed railroad ties around the perimeter in the ditches. i stopped building it however when Troy began sticking around. 

I think this has kindve been a brainwash thing, because believe it or not my defense of free roaming is only because i was always against it until debates like you all have against it now are the opposite here. i got tired of fighting it, and i shouldnt have. i will go finish Troy's fence tomorrow and thats where he will stay from now on. Although i feel sorry for him now because he has always stayed sitting by the door waiting for us to come out and pet him. He'll get over it and its for his safety. I still dont want to stray from a border collie or aussie, however. Don't be so quick to judge, because i tried everything with those cockers and nothing worked. Blame their upbringing in another home and moving here for a different way of life, keeping two siblings, whatever. all things aside its made me have a lack of trust for the entire breed, which is not fair but how i feel. I think a collie would fit in nicely here on the farm, and we'll try out best to keep it busy. We are currently building a new house and putting vinyl/tile in all rooms but the bedrooms so our pets CAN come inside. Our current home is mostly brand new hardwood floors and dogs are a bad idea. they have to stay in the kitchen which is asking the impossible of a little hyperactive lab. 

Thank you for your input Darkmoon, it has helped. And possibly taken Troy out of danger. I had never even heard of these puppy stages either, its reasons like that that im here on these forums. I think if im going to have an intelligent breed such as a border collie/golden lab, i need to know what is fact and what is southern myth, which is the reason i asked if a 9 month old can learn as well as a new born. i do consider myself a good dog owner, i care immensely for these dogs and no one is going to tell me otherwise. i tried everything with those cocker's and nothing worked. But that doesnt excuse negligence to try with Troy, an error that will be fixed tomorrow.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I think this has kindve been a brainwash thing, because believe it or not my defense of free roaming is only because i was always against it until debates like you all have against it now are the opposite here. i got tired of fighting it, and i shouldnt have. i will go finish Troy's fence tomorrow and thats where he will stay from now on. Although i feel sorry for him now because he has always stayed sitting by the door waiting for us to come out and pet him. He'll get over it and its for his safety.


I'm back because this reply made a lot of sense and shows me that OP will be trying. Sometimes when in rural areas many dogs are run free and that's ok because it's a personal choice. There is a farmer/cattle person living in area, that in the 40 yrs we have lived here that has gone through 15 dogs one at a time that all met disaster on the road. This person is a nice guy but his dog rearing is far short of what he needs to keep them alive. 

Good luck s2thalayer and Troy and possible new rascal.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Grrr.... I spent 20mins typing out a reply and doing some research for you just to have Windows decide to update and reboot. Grrr Grrr Grrr.

I'm glad you've decided to finish Troy's fence. On here we are really big dog fans and are faced with a lot of ignorance and down right rudeness when it comes to telling people what they are doing is wrong. We don't mean to be rude, and a lot of times we really aren't you just happen to be the 1,000,000,000 to ask the same question in the past 6 months (You weren't I'm just saying) so you got the wrong end of the stick. It's hard to hear the person's tones in these type of post. Often we come across snippy when we aren't trying to be. I apologize for that.

Teenage stage:
http://www.nkconcepts.com/darlene5.htm
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1701&S=1&SourceID=47
http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/teenagedog.html

I've personally found that there is also a small fear stage around a year of age, normally it doesn't last long. When I brought home Nubs I had him for a month before he went though it (He was about 14 months old), and I swear he was scared of his own shadow. A stick laying in the middle of the road that wasn't there the day before would send him into a fit, hackles up, barking, unsure steps until I showed him it was nothing to fear or he would get up enough courage to walk up to it and find out himself. That mini fear stage that lasted about 3 weeks (then off and on for about a month or two) shaped him into the fearless dog he is today. So if out of no where your dog starts acting like sticks are going to kill him or your front door is now considered a death trap, don't get angry encourage your dog to figure out that he has nothing to fear. At one point with Nubs a big black box plug that was plugged into the wall somehow fell out of the outlet and crashed to the floor. I spent about 10mins trying to get him to walk next to that black box or touch it, or something to get him over that fear and finally I put that plug IN MY MOUTH and that is when Nubs decided that if I can hold it in my mouth that it had to be harmless. *smacks forehead* Dogs... Gotta love them.

I'm not trying to say you wouldn't try to be the best owner of a BC or Aussie, I just can tell with your life style it may not be the best choice for you. I love Collies, Aussies, and BCs but unless I was someone who stayed at home all day on 50 acers that worked outside where I could work them everyday or had a farm near by that I could work them on some herding often, I wouldn't even own one. They just need a lot of training and a lot of exercise. I had one friend growing up that would tell me stories about her BC. It was known to herd up the younger kids when they were outside playing, it was known for stealing streaks off the grill, once it decided to take a bowl down off of the table that had eggs in it, and preceded to run around the house while she was chasing it tossing raw eggs all over the place. She also chewed through a wall and made her own doggy door to the backyard.

Just do your research on the breed, and do the research on picking a breeder. It's hard to put a lot of money into a dog, I'm looking to spend around $1000 on my next dog (want to say OUCH with me???) but there is a reason why it's worth spending that much on a good breeder. Breeders who work and show their dogs also do certain health testing on their dogs that goes beyond the basic vet check ups. Hips are x-rayed for Hip displacement, Elbows are also x-rayed, Their eyes are certified that there aren't genetic issues, and depending on the breed there are normally certain genetic diseases that they also screen for (I know in my breed American Pit Bull Terriers the testing that is normally done is Hips, Thyroid, Heart, Elbows, and Ataxia (http://www.caninegeneticdiseases.net/ataxia/ataxia_examples.htm). By paying more when you buy these dogs you are saving yourself money in the long run in vet care. Also there is less chance of your dog bringing home Parvo from a good breeder.

If you ever have an issue again with your dogs digging out of their fence, you may need to be a bit more extreme. I know many people who lay down a concrete slap then put a kennel on the slap and tie the kennel down so the dogs can not dog under it. None of us here likes seeing dog in small cages or left in kennels day and night but they are fine when you are unable to keep an eye on a dog. If you allow time with your dog, give it a good walk daily to bi-daily (Heck my dog walks on a treadmill if I can't walk him outside) and remember to mentally wear it out as well (that's where stupid pet tricks come in handy) your dog will be fine in a larger outside kennel.

Good luck with your research and ask any questions you may have. We might be a little rough at first but if you read past the roughness you'll find a mountain of information behind it.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

yeah i can understand that. working as a contractor at a construction company i get the same kindve frustration with customers, but i do it every day of my life and have a degree in building trades, they dont. But i find myself getting sarcastic and have to check myself a lot of the time. so i understand, its cool. haha im just making sure i defend my ownership of these dogs because i DO feel they have all had very good lives aside from that coyote scare that NO ONE was happy about.

i understand what you're saying about border collies, but im hard headed and my fiancee has ALWAYS wanted one. So i think we're going to try anyway, so ill give you a chance to say "I told you so." But we'll give it all the love and exercise we've got. and hopefully Troy can tire her out a bit. I am going for female to keep the testosterone out of the equation however. I have also heard that giving them jobs other than out in the pastures helps. Such as teaching them to get the newspaper, etc. Itll also be a way to get the family off the couch and out having fun with the dogs. the cocker's we all love but as i explained there is no trust there, so if theyre out, Troy is locked up. Because i dont want him following them if they obviously refuse to be trained. Ill also add i think this may have something to do with the mother's breeding. When we got her the old lady who had her had her pinned up in a kennel with the whole litter and they were never let out. she doesnt understand why she cant poop and walk all in it, and no amount of training will fix it and trust me we have TRIED. and her two pups that are with her were brought up at the other house in a fenced in yard and i cant help but think thats the cause. but reguardless, Troy needs a properly trained playmate.

that brings me to another question. is it possible to make a dog realize YOU are their leader, not the other dogs. out here in the south the biggest problem with no leash laws is other dogs. thats been my biggest fear of leaving Troy out. Am i once again asking too much of a dog? or is it very possible to make a dog _ignore_ another dog to come to you?

as for fences, my brother has a Weimaraner, hope i spelled that right, and he is a VERY intelligent, good dog. My brother cant get him to stop following him EVER. But when he isnt with my brother they lock him away in a crate instead of a pin. Troy himself has grown accustomed to his crate especially after i put a blanket over it to give it that cave feel. This leads me to another question. Is pinning two or more dogs up together a risky thing? Like lets say one dog is untrained, one is. Can dogs actually rub off on each othe? for example one acts up, and the other one starts. Thats one of the reasons i dont keep Troy with the cocker's anymore. When he gets out he doesnt listen. Im trying to avoid that with a BC if i get one. Should i put them in separate crates (or one in the fence, one in a crate)? im worried that if i put them both in the same fence they might start following each other more than they follow me, and though bonds like that between dogs are "cute" as i mentioned above, they can be quite chaotic and id rather avoid it.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Never too old.

For example my two were adopted at 3 years old and learned their names and obedience just fine.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Yes actually you can make dogs see you as their leader over another dog. Look at it like this, Your parents were your leader, you listened to what they had to say, maybe resisted but overall you listened. Now when you bring your best friend into that photo, you listened to your best friend more then your parents. While your parents had ultimate power over you, your best friend's ideas still got you in trouble. The same goes with dogs. One-on-one time is a MUST with multiple dogs to get the dog to rely on you more then your other dog. Sleeping at night in separate crates from the beginning, taking one dog out for a hike and leaving another at home, nightly training sessions while one is in their crate and one is out. You have to bond with each dog individually. Dogs bond closer and easier with other dogs, plan and simple. You have to be there more for dogs then the other one is.

It takes a LOT of training to get a dog to ignore other dogs, a LOT. When I'm out in HUGE groups of dogs, Nubs will ignore them all, but if we are out on a walk and he see's one or 2 he reacts to them. If your not around, I do feel it's down right impossible for a dog to ignore another dog, you have to be present for training to happen and if you want something to happen when your away that is self rewarding, then you aren't going to be able to train it. You dog playing with another dog is self rewarding. Your dog may ignore that dog when your around but when your gone the rules change.

So simply yes, you want to keep them separate for a while, but allow them to play together too. At night I would crate them in different crates, and if I wasn't around keep them separate. Not only is it safer (if one starts a fight you'd be there to break it up.) but it does allow you to bond more with both dogs then them bonding with each other but you do want a bond between them as well. 

Having multiple dogs is hard. I'm not looking forward to it but at the same time I am.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Yes, it IS. haha. We had a golden retriever at one point with our first cocker spaniel and those two were both good alone, but together oh my God they were a handfull. Once we started breeding the dogs bond's got out of control and this new generation is my attempt at regaining the control.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Erm... Breeding.. yeah that's a whole other touchy subject. We support good breeders who as I said above about health testing and show and work their dogs, besides that there are enough dogs in the shelter system that needs homes to breed any more sub-par dogs in this world.

This time stay away from breeding. There is a TON of information on the topic and there will be some heated topics on it soon (always are).


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

oh count on that. we stopped breeding a few years ago because of that really. the demand isnt as high as the supply. plus personally, the stress to me wasnt worth the money. And it really isnt. you have to just be the kind of person to love dogs enough to put up with all that and give it the number one prioriety. i love my dogs, dont get me wrong, but i dont care for the drama of breeding any more. and i have never had to give an animal to the shelter, ive came damn close tho, and gone far into the red several times as far as money because of it. the way i see it, if youre going to bring it into this world, its your problem now. if you cant sell it you better be able to feed it. Plus the whole "I wanna keep that oneeeeee!" is always there. and before you know it you have quite a few dogs. >.>.....


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

also be sure they are fixed since you said a lot of them arent ..... its probably best that troy is neutered so he can play with the girls and not get in lots of trouble


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Miranda16 said:


> also be sure they are fixed since you said a lot of them arent ..... its probably best that troy is neutered so he can play with the girls and not get in lots of trouble


Oh, well Holly, Harley, and Callie (the cockers) are all female, and Troy is of course Male but kept separate from the cocker's at all times. actually since he roams free most of the time, ive always seen the females being there and him still having all his stuff as a reason for him to not wander off. but ill get him fixed when and if the BC is brought into the family.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

well my main concern is that you say everybody else has free roaming females .... and if hes roaming ... well lets just say females in heat make males a little cooky .... to the point where he will seek them out to mate .... and there is no need for more roaming dogs yano


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

i hear you. yeah, well i must admit im a bit lazy because in the 3 years we've lived on the farm we have never seen another dog come on to our farm. im paranoid it might happen though, but as the cockers are constantly in a pin (it is a huge pin, theyre fine), i never really worry about them. but theres a good chance ill get the border collie fixed also, the local shelter does it for like 20 bucks.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Just a warning, Male dogs can, will, and have gotten to females through fences and through crates. Not even joking. It happened not to long ago at a German Pointer breeder's house. The Male broke out of his crate, broke down a door, made it to the female's crate and locked with her through the crate. It does happen. 

I'm not trying to be a bother, but I'm just saying...


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

one long, long word: Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

well i would say get them both done .... even if you dont think there are many dogs on your farm you would be amazed at the things males will do to get to a female in heat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZHPn5zcCQU watch the whole thing..... there are also stories of dogs chewing through walls to get to females .... some of the most extreme things you can think of .... dont ever take the it wont happen to me approach ya know ...cuz when it happens you feel like an idiot


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

holy shit that was amazing! well thats the plan, to get them both done. Troy's going to get an appointment done within the week probably.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

good deal haha yea ... males going after females can be quite crafty


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Miranda16 said:


> good deal haha yea ... males going after females can be quite crafty


not much unlike humans. lol


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Yeah I never knew that Males got like that until I started hanging out here and got into the show world (I do weight pulling with my rescued Pit Bull). It's amazing some of the stories I hear about what a male dog goes through when a female is in season. Most just get really depressed and stop eating then there are others that go through extremes. I remember hearing one on here where a handler (not the owner, just someone that handles the dog in the show ring) had a few dogs in a camper or something and one of the females went into season. The male dog was able to, while inside the crate, move it close enough to the female's crate and lock with her through his crate and her crate. This was a handler that was well known in the show world and it was a complete, honest oops litter. It was even 2 different breeds of dogs. It is just simply amazing what they will do. 

Another story I've heard was a stray male Rottie breaking a window and hopping through it to get to a female on the other side.

Just when you think you understand dogs, they surprise you.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

exactly ... and having a male fixed is much less invasive than a female ... you just kinda have to make sure you keep him calm so he heals well ... and keep him from licking it ... cuz he can get it infected http://www.dogforums.com/8-dog-pictures-forum/78638-brom-his-boxers.html alternitive ways to keep from licking an incision site other than the cone-of-shame


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

s2thalayer said:


> Oh, well Holly, Harley, and Callie (the cockers) are all female, and Troy is of course Male but kept separate from the cocker's at all times. actually since he roams free most of the time, ive always seen the females being there and him still having all his stuff as a reason for him to not wander off. but ill get him fixed when and if the BC is brought into the family.


Did you ever think that having all those bitches in heat might have been what was bringing in all the coyoties???? Maybe a little common sense here... if you aren't breeding them... FIX them. 

What area of the south are you in that doesn't have canine confinement regulations? Please post your state so that I can post your state's consolidated dog law. This way YOU can see for yourself what's going on is likely ILLEGAL with all the roaming dogs in a country area. Farmers have the right to shoot and kill domestic dogs that harass farmstock. Troy will want to stay around the females not because they go thru estrus, but because they are members of his PACK. How can they bond as pack mates if you don't let them interact... at that point all they are is a source of frustration for him. 

Next thing I saw reoccuring in your messages is that you want a dog that stays around the home and mentioning weimeraners and cockers. Well the weim is a gun dog that is bred to hunt cclose to their handler hence the constant following... they're not programmed to stray far from their handler unless flying fowl for them to shoot. Same with cockers... but they were bred to hunt wookcock and will wander in the search of birds to flight. You really REALLY need to look at what a dog was bred to do as a measuring stick as to how strong their desire to roam will be. 

Personally I don't agree with letting dogs roam free. My parents did that with a family schnauzer when I was like 5-7 yrs old. He was known as Beau of seaview avenue since EVERYONE knew him and had sent him home on more than 1 occasion but this was also a beach community and not farm country near a highway. He came home with his share of scrapes, fights, and dead fish smell. Dogs only really range (roam) for food, sex, and to establish a broader terratory and expand their pack. There is no need for a domestic dog, that should be working somehow if you have a farm (you mentioned helping with the cattle) to roam. Your days should be focused on training him to work the cattle, bond with the other dogs and YOU. Since all he ever did was hang out on the porch waiting for you to come out and interactwith him well that's my next point... DOGS ARE SOCIAL CREATURES... they NEED our companionship and to be around us. Isolating a dog to an outside life is the #1 source of depression in MANY companion dogs (granted there are breeds meant to live outdoors such as the flock guarding breeds) and behavioral problems such as aggressive/dominant tendancies. Dogs that live a roaming lifestyle fall prey to many different threats on their lives. Bunchers and groupers that steal or take strays for lab experiments, kids who can be harmfully cruel, SERIOUS financial/legal liability if your dog finally decides to bite one of these ignorent children, attack from other animals, attacking other's animals (sheep, goats, chickens, etc.), obviously gettinghit by cars on a highway, poisoning, eating something that might kill them (but isn't poison like bones or other undigestable things), etc.

Our dogs look to us to be thier pack leaders so they can be good followers, but if we fail to provide them a stable pack with a firm fair leader then they are in emotional turmoil and attempt to resort to a feral state. A dog will only stay around a person/place that they respect and that they see as a positive resource. If those things aren't being met then what's the point of owning a dog? 

Lastly... a dog, any dog... is NEVER EVER TOO OLD TO LEARN. I foster MANY senior dogs and they are the... THEE most receptive dogs to train out of any of the dogs I work with. With the proper training techniques (positive reward based rather than alpha training or other harsh methods) any dog will be willing to at least try to understand what you are asking of it. Just a fast example.. teaching a new name... say the name treat the dog, say the name treat the dog, say the name treat the dog, say the name wait for dog to look at you, treat the dog, lather rinse repeat... I think you get the point right?


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

more specifically you have to look at my county laws. the city has a leash law, but only my county has the free roaming dogs. Pittsylvania County, Virginia. But yes, farmers have the right to defend their property. which is one of the reasons the cockers cant be let out, they torment cattle the cattle. And yes, i believe the cockers were constantly wandering for hunting purposes, as one is obsessed with birds (which is what she was bred to do, so its understandable). I HAVE looked into types of dog breeds. after researching i decided Labs/Golden Retrievers strive to stay near their owners, and want nothing more than to please their owners (more specifically to the breed, by retrieving what the owner wants). The Collies from what i understand absolutely have to have jobs, that i can do also. 

as far as outside life, yeah ive thought of that. which is why i said the house i am currently building has as many vinyl/tile floors as possible. im extremely alergic to pet dander but mostly cats. the dogs only bother me if the dander gets in the carpet over a long period of time. Troy comes inside sometimes and stays in the kitchen, it doesnt bother me. but he gets bored when he cant leave the room at all. he prefers outside. once the new house is built, troy and the BC will likely sleep inside. The cockers however could NOT be house broken. we tried for months. we had an indoor cocker spaniel before i was alergic to dogs and he lived inside and rarely went outside. 

once again ill say, i was never for free roaming until i simply could not prevent it. the land we currently have can not be fenced in anywhere close to the house. our new house likely will be however. The free roaming debate is over though because im convinced that just because its working now doesnt mean it will work tomorrow and in the long term its just a bad idea. 

Your coyote idea is close. they were actually drawn here when we were breeding by the puppies. they constantly tried to get to them, but the stables are too strongly built. until finely one day, i dont know how but one made it in the stables and the next morning i found all the puppies, the mother, and a dead coyote. we found where he got in, upgraded the stables, and it never happened again. Since that year after i killed so many, along with our neighbors, ive yet to see another coyote though i hear small packs of 5 or 6 in the distance. the packs used to be up in the 20's from my guesses. however you make a valid point about the females being in heat. that could be a problem in the near future if the coyotes are ever aloud to repopulate. however, with the current bounty of 50(it may have been reduced to 25, im not sure) bucks a head for coyote's i dont think its happening anytime soon. I will probably get them fixed in the near future anyway though. 

As for the training age thing, yeah i believe you guys. Lots of people i ask say "Oh he's almost too old to train. You cant teach an old dog new tricks ya know! *laugh*" But its myths like that that are the reason im on these forums. if i knew everything there is to know about dogs, i wouldnt be on the help forums asking questions.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

p.s. s2 
.... dog_shrink is an animal behaviorist .... and somebody i like to trust so her advice is great... 
and darkmoon is somebody who knows her sh*t when it comes to dogs .... she has to due to her dogs breed so she can correct other people on their misconceptions ...

and i think the cockers have a chance ... they will just need a lot of work ... like start from square one ... look up the house training threads on here for problem house trainer dogs ... i wouldnt give up on them


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

s2thalayer said:


> *more specifically you have to look at my county laws. the city has a leash law, but only my county has the free roaming dogs. Pittsylvania County, Virginia.* But yes, farmers have the right to defend their property. which is one of the reasons the cockers cant be let out, they torment cattle the cattle. And yes, i believe the cockers were constantly wandering for hunting purposes, as one is obsessed with birds (which is what she was bred to do, so its understandable). I HAVE looked into types of dog breeds. after researching i decided Labs/Golden Retrievers strive to stay near their owners, and want nothing more than to please their owners (more specifically to the breed, by retrieving what the owner wants). The Collies from what i understand absolutely have to have jobs, that i can do also.
> 
> as far as outside life, yeah ive thought of that. which is why i said the house i am currently building has as many vinyl/tile floors as possible. im extremely alergic to pet dander but mostly cats. the dogs only bother me if the dander gets in the carpet over a long period of time. Troy comes inside sometimes and stays in the kitchen, it doesnt bother me. but he gets bored when he cant leave the room at all. he prefers outside. once the new house is built, troy and the BC will likely sleep inside. The cockers however could NOT be house broken. we tried for months. we had an indoor cocker spaniel before i was alergic to dogs and he lived inside and rarely went outside.
> 
> ...


In many states like Pennsylvania county law can not over ride state law. If the state docturine says leash laws and confinement are mandatory, then county law can't allow free roaming dogs. It's mroe likely a case of limited animal control (who enforce the humane aspects of the law), minimal dog wardens (who are suppose to enforce code) and not enough people caring to complain.

http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvast3_1_796_66_89.htm

As far as labs go yes they want to please their owners and be with them, but they will NOT tolerate being an outside dog because of those genetic traits.


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## maiame (Feb 3, 2010)

Male dogs...

My parents have a sheep farm. Ben, a border collie normally stayed on the farm. One day he was missing. Then the phone call, he was 3 miles away in the nearest village, in the kitchen of the local doctor. They had left their black lab who was in heat, shut in the kitchen. Ben got in through the cat flap. The puppies didn't have papers but they were really cute.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I justed wanted to say that I think it's great you're coming here, accepting most advice, and learning. 

I do hope you get all of your pets spayed/nuetered asap, and don't get another dog until your golden retriever is fully trained. It's so much harder with two puppies. 

And I also hope you make your dogs inside dogs and only let them outside leashed. It's the safest option, really. And you can buy long lines like horse lunge lines to clip on them to let them "run free" when they're sticking close that helps to catch them if they decide to run off.

eta; I had a question for you about your dogs' health, too. It seems in the south you have many misconceptions, and I just wanted to make sure your dogs are on heartworm preventative since they're outside so much. They are, correct?


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## SchnauzerLove (Jul 7, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> Um... wow.. there is so much wrong here it's not even funny. I have to agree with RBark as harsh as he may be, you'll be lucky if your current dog reaches 3 at this rate. It's not overly uncommon for coyotes to entice dogs to "play" with them, even larger labs, to lead them into the woods where the rest of the pack is waiting and they kill them. No dog should be off leash in an open area without supervision for their own safety and the safety of others (including neighbors livestock). Yes your neighbors still play a roll in it even on 50 acers of land. Dogs will and do travel that far in a day or more.
> 
> $350 for a puppy is very cheap, and yes you'll have to wait to get one from a breeder. Likely the breeders you are looking aren't aren't the greatest because if your current track record and your ideas I know of no good breeders that would give you a dog. It's just asking for the dog to die.
> 
> ...


This and what Rbark said. Im out of this thread.

Oh and by the way I AM FROM the south and people certainly dont treat their dogs they way you treat YOUR dog, I feel bad for your dog having owners like you that doesnt even care about the dangers that can and WILL happen while hes outside, and of course I dont leash my dog 24/7 because he lives inside my house and when hes out is under controlled supervision. I do not want my dog to get eaten by hungry coyotes.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> eta; I had a question for you about your dogs' health, too. It seems in the south you have many misconceptions, and I just wanted to make sure your dogs are on heartworm preventative since they're outside so much. They are, correct?


Oh for sure. the vets are actually very good. i dont think its a case of health problems. i think its more, the rural areas that ive grown up in in the south are much more laid back than the other areas. our dog gets out, the neighbor calls and says he has him and come get him and its all a joke. we dont shoot dogs because their on our property. every now and then you get a jerk that is like that. but southern hospitality is usually much better than that. Roaming dogs have always been here, always will be, and people usually go with it. and on a 50 acre farm, its hard to take a dog around on a leash all day. we are busy, we work the fields, the stables, everything. the dog knows the land as well as us so they run around with us. coyote's were recently introduced to the wild out here for what reason i have no idea. within a couple years they were destroying the countryside and a bounty was placed on them by the same government that introduced them. Amazing huh? Now THATS animal cruelty. introduce a predator that kills innocent animals as instinct, then order them to be killed because of it. Yet, if the cage isnt freakin huge, or the dog is in any way tied to a post, i dont care if its one of those 100 foot leashes, count on a visit from PETA. 

but point is, yes all the dogs are on all their medication. 

another point to some of the more up front forum posters here, lets remember as its been stated: Free roaming is a debatable thing, and a choice. it is NOT cruel. its the way of life around here. Im going to use more judgement instead of just letting him do his own thing, but for the most part during the day he's still going to do his own thing. I dont need these snobby comments im getting from a few people. most people here are being very nice and helpful. remember that i AM here for help and advice, but most of the advice is infact OPINIONS and cultures of where YOU ARE. It is not rule, fact, or right. I AM learning from all of this and am using MY judgement on what i should change. Troy is now staying in a crate as i type. he will sleep in that at night from now on. he will enjoy a good sized cage while im at work, and he will be free roaming during the day while im out in the pastures. there isnt a damn thing wrong with that and im getting a bit frustrated by some of the tones im hearing from some people.



SchnauzerLove said:


> This and what Rbark said. Im out of this thread.
> 
> Oh and by the way I AM FROM the south and people certainly dont treat their dogs they way you treat YOUR dog, I feel bad for your dog having owners like you.


PS and its a good thing i dont give a damn what you think. you dont know me, stop acting like you do. the classic elitist.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I'm glad your pets are on heartworm preventive. 

However, it isn't really a culture this and opinion on whether or not you should let your dog run loose. 

It's irresponsible, plain and simple. And I'm not degrading you or trying to insult you, but it is. You should not own a dog if you will not keep it safe. Dogs rely on us for that and we owe it to them. If you're going to be out in the fields or wherever on the property, just keep a long line on him that you can grab if you have to and keep him in sight at all times, or chances are he'll run off and you won't find him. Not all dogs stick around or turn up. If you can't watch him, take him inside and crate him for a couple of hours with a frozen peanut butter kong in his crate. I bet he'd like that more than running loose and getting hurt anyday.


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## SchnauzerLove (Jul 7, 2010)

s2thalayer said:


> Oh for sure. the vets are actually very good. i dont think its a case of health problems. i think its more, the rural areas that ive grown up in in the south are much more laid back than the other areas. our dog gets out, the neighbor calls and says he has him and come get him and its all a joke. we dont shoot dogs because their on our property. every now and then you get a jerk that is like that. but southern hospitality is usually much better than that. Roaming dogs have always been here, always will be, and people usually go with it. and on a 50 acre farm, its hard to take a dog around on a leash all day. we are busy, we work the fields, the stables, everything. the dog knows the land as well as us so they run around with us. coyote's were recently introduced to the wild out here for what reason i have no idea. within a couple years they were destroying the countryside and a bounty was placed on them by the same government that introduced them. Amazing huh? Now THATS animal cruelty. introduce a predator that kills innocent animals as instinct, then order them to be killed because of it. Yet, if the cage isnt freakin huge, or the dog is in any way tied to a post, i dont care if its one of those 100 foot leashes, count on a visit from PETA.
> 
> but point is, yes all the dogs are on all their medication.
> 
> ...


You shouldnt give a damn about me, you should give a damn about your dog which clearly you dont and yet you want another dog.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Hey guys, Chill.. Just Chill out...

Schnauzer, I'm not sure if you read the whole thread or not but S2t has come a long way since that first post. He DOES care about his dogs, he just didn't really see it the way we do. His mind has changed, and personally If I was out working in a pasture, Nubs would be off lead out there with me as well. I see nothing wrong with SUPERVISED off leash work. Its the outside at day/night, off leash, free to do what he wants, no humans around to tell him not to chance after another wild dog or not to head toward the road when I have an issue with it.

You get more flies with honey then vinegar. Remember that...


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

SchnauzerLove said:


> This and what Rbark said. Im out of this thread.
> 
> Oh and by the way I AM FROM the south and people certainly dont treat their dogs they way you treat YOUR dog, I feel bad for your dog having owners like you that doesnt even care about the dangers that can and WILL happen while hes outside, and of course I dont leash my dog 24/7 because he lives inside my house and when hes out is under controlled supervision. I do not want my dog to get eaten by hungry coyotes.


WOW little hostile don't cha think esp. since the OP has already seen the errors of his ways and has deided to change how he treats his dogs?


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

SchnauzerLove said:


> You shouldnt give a damn about me, you should give a damn about your dog which clearly you dont and yet you want another dog.


obviously, you cant read. so i wont bother with you. your ignorance amazes me, you read a paragraph and think you know everything about someone. how wonderful it must be to live in your world. 



DJEtzel said:


> I'm glad your pets are on heartworm preventive.
> 
> However, it isn't really a culture this and opinion on whether or not you should let your dog run loose.
> 
> It's irresponsible, plain and simple. And I'm not degrading you or trying to insult you, but it is. You should not own a dog if you will not keep it safe. Dogs rely on us for that and we owe it to them. If you're going to be out in the fields or wherever on the property, just keep a long line on him that you can grab if you have to and keep him in sight at all times, or chances are he'll run off and you won't find him. Not all dogs stick around or turn up. If you can't watch him, take him inside and crate him for a couple of hours with a frozen peanut butter kong in his crate. I bet he'd like that more than running loose and getting hurt anyday.


Let me clear this up a bit, because i think here's where the misunderstanding has existed all along. The ONLY reason i let Troy free roam is because he stays within sight of the house. im now being told that its only because he's a puppy. i didnt know that. but i assure you if he was wandering out of sight, he wouldnt have been free roaming any longer. however, im being told he's going to hit a stage where he WILL wander. because of that, he now sleeps in a crate at night. because im not exactly sure how long he should stay in a crate (and quite frankly i feel sorry for him), he's out by himself right now while my fiancee is at home. However, i let her know that the free roaming thing is going to have to stop, and until i finish his cage completely, we need to keep an eye on him while he's outside. he really isnt going anywhere especially during the day, but we're going to check on him anyway. the new rule is also when we leave the house Troy get's crated. Eventually we're going to put him in the pin unless we are outside. but right now we're experiencing a heat wave (103 degrees all week), and his pin is in direct sunlight, so until i build a shelter for him i cant realistically put him out there. However, while im outside he really doesnt need to be on a leash. And let me make this clear: Right now there is no problem with wandering. As long as while im outside he's literally rubbing against my legs wherever i am, i see no reason to tie him. He is a very good dog and stays right with us, and if he isnt with us, he's resting in his crate by the front door. As i said, i have seen no problem with that, and he is completely safe. all 50 acres of ours is pasture land, cleared out. But as i said, things have changed and i get what you guys are saying about nightfall. i never really considered the fact that one night he might just decide to up and leave. So the new schedule is he spends the morning with me in the kitchen, he then can stay out on the porch UNTIED as long as someone is home. When everyone leaves for work, he goes in the crate (the pin when its finished), when we get home he's out and we usually spend the rest of the day with him. There is currently no reason to put him on a leash unless we are just teaching him leash manners. The day he stops staying right by my feet while im all over the farm, he'll be leashed. but he seems like he just enjoys being around us so i see no problem. He has never been freelancing through the fields and we just hope he comes back, THAT WOULD BE CRUEL AND CARELESS, i already thought that. i think assumptions of that were being made. (though i was assuming he isnt doing that at night, and had no proof) At night he sleeps in the crate, repeat.



SchnauzerLove said:


> and of course I dont leash my dog 24/7 because he lives inside my house and when hes out is under controlled supervision.


trust me, as jealous as i am that you get to do that, i cant. i used to have a dog that lived in with me, but i recently became allergic to dogs (human allergys change every 7 years, so careful...you could be in my position some day yourself). As much as i wish Troy could sleep in my room with me, my attacks are so severe that if enough dander gets in the carpet i can actually die from that. and to me that isnt worth it. so Troy can stay only in the kitchen for now until my new house is built and even for that ill require air purifiers, tons of cleaning, and he still wont be aloud on the carpet. Im sorry if that isnt good enough for you, but thats simply how it is. I wish it was different, but it isnt. I love my animals every bit as much as you love yours, and you are NOT going to tell me otherwise.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Just to explain the pup wander thing again, right now you have a young child anywhere between 7 yrs of age to teen-ager. That is why pup sticks by you, main problem is that all of a sudden one day he will turn into a teen-ager. This is then just like people teen-agers when the real silly, stupid stuff starts. That lasts until dog matures which is normally around 3 yrs of age (generalization)

Quite frankly the more you post the better it sounds. Forewarned is forearmed and it appears you are arming yourself against future problems. You mentioned brainwashing a while back and when in a rural area where the great grandfather and down the line have let their stock dogs run loose and some have lived full lives it becomes a way of life to follow suit.

Times change with more wildlife being pushed around and more traffic on roads and even more dogs being stolen or shot for kicks, let alone if dog causes damage somewhere else and gets shot/poisoned.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Just to explain the pup wander thing again, right now you have a young child anywhere between 7 yrs of age to teen-ager. That is why pup sticks by you, main problem is that all of a sudden one day he will turn into a teen-ager. This is then just like people teen-agers when the real silly, stupid stuff starts. That lasts until dog matures which is normally around 3 yrs of age (generalization)
> 
> Quite frankly the more you post the better it sounds. Forewarned is forearmed and it appears you are arming yourself against future problems. You mentioned brainwashing a while back and when in a rural area where the great grandfather and down the line have let their stock dogs run loose and some have lived full lives it becomes a way of life to follow suit.
> 
> Times change with more wildlife being pushed around and more traffic on roads and even more dogs being stolen or shot for kicks, let alone if dog causes damage somewhere else and gets shot/poisoned.


i appreciate the understanding. haha. its true, thats exactly how it is. everyones parents' parents had dogs running around loose "back in the day". And as i said, 5 years ago if you were worried about coyotes around here you would be called crazy. the damn government just recently released them into the wild. such a smart idea. and now no one knows what to do about their animals. as i said, its been just a way of life around here, never had to worry about something getting the dogs. they wander around the whole neighborhood, they mess something up, the owner pays for it. but everyone knows everyones dog's like its their own. but with the coyotes, and as you said theft, and more cars on the road and so on and so forth, i guess its no longer safe for free roaming. and to me it wasnt an irresponsible thing, my point of view i was doing my dog a favor by not caging him, and trusting him to do his own thing. but hearing you guys' point of view, its not a safe thing. ill admit when im wrong, im not out to torture and be cruel to my dogs. if i was i wouldnt ask opinions from fellow dog lovers about whats right. i want what is best for my dogs. But also i do live on an isolated farm, and compared to an urban area, there are certain scenarios that allow my dog to be unleashed. i got bigger dogs so they wouldnt be such a target, and so that they could be with me and follow me while im working out in the fields because i spend so much time out there. and a lab/golden retriever was a key choice to me because of our 3 acre pond. he LOVES it.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Something else you can consider while you build his PEN (sorry your spelling it pin finally got to me) is a trolly. It's a cable that you run from 1 tree to another or from your house to a tree (whatever) and then there is a down line to your dog. It gives him freedom of movement with out being in a cage/kennel/pen and he has access to shade and whatever you choose to put in his trolly area. 
This is a trolly system:









You don't have to buy a premade kit, I simply use coated laundry line, a light piece of chain I get from home depot, and a couple leash clips to go from the trolly to the down line and the down line to the dog. The better Troy gets at using the trolly the longer you can make his down line. See no need for a pen, you can restrain him and he can have freedom all at once. 

As far as keeping Troy indoors and your allergies... VACUUM, daily if you have to. Also there is a product called allerpet. IT's a shampoo you wash your dog with that is suppose to help resuce human allergic reactions by nutyeralizing the things onthe dog that make us react. PS 9 times out of 10 it's not the dander but it's the SPIT ont he dander that makes people react.

Here's the shampoo:










http://www.carealotpets.com/Products/Allerpet-for-Dogs-12-oz__1063.aspx


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Something else you can consider while you build his PEN (sorry your spelling it pin finally got to me) is a trolly. It's a cable that you run from 1 tree to another or from your house to a tree (whatever) and then there is a down line to your dog. It gives him freedom of movement with out being in a cage/kennel/pen and he has access to shade and whatever you choose to put in his trolly area.
> This is a trolly system:
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks so much! haha i knew that was coming. i had a feeling i was spelling it wrong but was too lazy to check. 

Uh ill have to check on the trolly thing, i know ive seen it done around here before. But with the new law that made any form a tieing a dog illegal, i want to make sure thats a legal thing around here. 

And thanks so much for the allergy tips! its so strange. i always had dogs and cats in the house, then just out of no where one day i couldnt stop sneezing around them. eventually it evolved into full blown attacks that require me to keep an EPI pen on me. i took an allergy test with 150 shots, i was positive for something like 105 of them. Cat's being number one, and dogs being a couple below. but ill never stop owning dogs. and i thank you so much for your advice on this, cause it will for sure make my life better, and Troys time inside longer. usually he can stay in all day when he has a bath, but other days after 30 minutes just the air makes me allergic. ill for sure buy some of that stuff! and the vacuum thing doesnt work. vacuum all you want, it never helps. its in the air or something. contracting for a construction company, going around giving people estimates, i know my allergy better than anything. If there is a cat or dog in the house, i dont care if its 2 floors up, i know about it. if a CAT has EVER been in your house, i garentee you i know about it. haha.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Darkmoon said:


> Grrr.... I spent 20mins typing out a reply and doing some research for you just to have Windows decide to update and reboot. Grrr Grrr Grrr.


Reason #1 why I have autoupdate off. I'll decide when to update, thank you very much MS.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

From what I just read about the Proposed Virginia anti tethering bill is that no dog can be tethered for more than 10 hours. Tethering to a dog house or immovable object is way different than putting a dog out on a trolly line. This is a moveable object that gives your dog freedom rather than ebing securee to a dog house with limited space where they literally go stir crazy. They also argue that passing this bill is going to put more strain on an already over taxed animal enforcement department that can't handle the complaints they already get SO if you were to do it, being in god's half acre, I really don't think you have much to worry about. 

Geesh they can pass anti tethering laws but can't agree on proper confinement laws that don't permit animals to roam. what's wrong with THIS picture???

ok did some more digging and can't find anything about Pittsylvania Va. tethering law but did find something from Danville. This should be helpful and there is a phone # you can call for more information:

http://dahsinc.com/dnn/ConstantChainingofDogs/tabid/70/Default.aspx


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## Qpmomma (Jul 9, 2010)

I grew up in Kentucky and trust me NO ONE wanted to leash thier dogs. I ended up building a kennel to put my dogs in b/c I was tired of other dogs coming into my yard and messing with my dogs. They were on lines at the time. I have a lab who was shot b/c he roamed and the owner left him on our street. I used to have and foster huskies. This one lady had one that kept getting out. I informed her it was her responsibility to keep the dog in her yard. She said it was impossible to keep a husky confined. A few months later her dog was at a shelter and she was facing charges for not having her dog leashed. 

You are wise to build a pen. You are a good owner to think about the saftey of your animals. 

Also, my chow mix was 12 when I got her and she was able to be trained.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> From what I just read about the Proposed Virginia anti tethering bill is that no dog can be tethered for more than 10 hours. Tethering to a dog house or immovable object is way different than putting a dog out on a trolly line. This is a moveable object that gives your dog freedom rather than ebing securee to a dog house with limited space where they literally go stir crazy. They also argue that passing this bill is going to put more strain on an already over taxed animal enforcement department that can't handle the complaints they already get SO if you were to do it, being in god's half acre, I really don't think you have much to worry about.
> 
> Geesh they can pass anti tethering laws but can't agree on proper confinement laws that don't permit animals to roam. what's wrong with THIS picture???
> 
> ...


Yeah. thats my towns government for you. as i said a million times already, and if it isnt a terrific example of our politicians here.....yeah....lets populate the area with coyotes....thatll be helpful. 3 years later, holy shit! theyre killing stuff....because theyre predators....okay now lets offer a 50 dollar reward to citizens per yote head so we can exterminate the things WE PUT HERE. wonder if PETA knows about that?! they basically bought a dog and shot it. 

as for the roaming, you guys would be furious because quite honestly the way the humane society around here feels is "let your dogs do whatever the f*ck they want, no restrictions! Cages and chains are evillll EVILLL!" Seriously.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Sounds like everything's going well on your end, good luck with him and everything. 

I would like to comment that you said he's being kept on the porch when someone's home, like your girlfriend? Is he enclosed on the porch or loose again, and is she actually watching him? I'd just hate for your efforts on watching him to be wasted when he picked THAT time to turn into an adult and go wandering after females or something.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

Hah, well thats a risk for now. I told her to check on him regularly to make sure he isnt going anywhere, i trust shes doing that. but as i said, his pen isnt finished so he has no where to go. Because i had confinement issues with the cockers and Ozzy did so good free roaming after i gave up confining him, i never planned for actually confining Troy. This mistake is currently being corrected but will take the weekend to make it work. That will be the end of Troy's lone free roaming. but actually, i forgot but now that you mention it we began training troy to stay in our sunroom today. never considered that as a safe place for him to roam before today.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Well it sounds like you got it all taken care of. I'm happy you're doing so much for him now and realizing that sometimes roaming doesn't work out.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

well, im just updating you all about the situation. Troy has had no trouble taking to the new schedule, a bit confused, but no trouble. He seems, happier isnt the word, more content? he lovessss spending more time in the house that is available because of that wonderful allergy shampoo stuff. and containing him from free roaming seems to make him obey and pay more attention to Sarah and I. for an example he's 6 months old and only knew how to sit, but in one day we clicker trained him and taught him to lay down and to shake and he does it quickly and without hesitation now. 

some of you will be disappointed to hear we DID go through with the border collie. but it was something my mind was completely set on. it will be hard, but there was no talking Sarah out of it (i made a promise to her. i wanted a golden retriever, she wanted a BC, neither of us would compromise so i promised her if we got mine first we'd get hers eventually). Plus Troy could really use a playmate. We picked her up today, she is a beautiful DARK DARK brown traditional marking border collie, 6 weeks old today. We named her Kirra. We moved her into Troy's old kennel and purchased his new home which should fit him for the rest of his life. they sleep in separate kennels across from each other. 

They will both be clicker trained, and we are trying our hardest to spend equal time with both. Ironically enough, when i asked the breeders how they contain the mother and father, they said Oh they free roam. i just nodded my head as he explained how he never has any problems with them free roaming and continued on. Both of these will likely partially free roam. the only times being when we are home. if i get too allergic (usually takes several hours depending on how in my face Troy gets), they have to go outside and i dont plan on leashing them unless they start to wander. Kirra of course is way too young to go anywhere but a crate unless under our supervision. 

I do have a problem with Troy lately however that is training related. Two problems actually. 1) He isnt RETRIEVING. now maybe ive just been lucky, but ive never had to TRAIN a dog to fetch...they do it instinctively. Is Troy simply not interested in it, or does he require training. i would think retrieving comes to a retriever as herding comes to a border collie. 2) water. Troy was obsessed with water as a puppy, all of a sudden he refuses to get in the pond. i was told to never force him into water. Sarah and i went swimming for a few hours today and he still showed no interest, in fact he stayed as far away as possible when we called him from the water. I dont really understand. he used to like it, and he's instinctively a water dog. can he be trained to do this too? im having a trouble dividing instinct from training.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

6 weeks old is *WAY* too young to bring a pup home. The law in Virginia says "it is illegal, before the age of SEVEN WEEKS, to Sell, raffle, or offer for sale as pets or novelties, or offer or give as a prize, premium, or advertising device", it's a class 3 misdemeanor. Here's the link, scroll down to Virginia.

http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuspuppysaletable.htm

Not to mention all the trouble you're going to have to do teaching it bite control and inhibition. Being a BC you're going to have 3 times the job as some one who would have adopted this dog at 8 weeks. One stupid mistake after another. And as far as Troy listening better... well DUH... you're giving him what he was CRAVING... your attention. 

Wow, I'm outta this thread. You really need to educate yourself about puppy raising (as well as your state dog laws WHICH I have already posted for you but here it is again http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusvast3_1_796_66_89.htm ), and hopefully do better with the BC.


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## s2thalayer (Jul 7, 2010)

oh im very aware of virginia's laws. the pup was purchased from north carolina. which i live basically on the border of. couldnt find any such law in North Carolina so i went on with it. i have no problem with training it "3 times as hard". and to tell you the truth i really dont need to explain myself for everything, especially any of you guys. no matter what i do, itll never be good enough for some of the members here, and im always going to get stuck up, hateful responses from a lot of you, and im pretty much over it. get off your high horses, jeez its a good thing everytime someone asked me a question about building a house i dont say "**** you man, are you retarded? If you want 32' trusses you're a ****ing idiot!" I though you guys were here to help people, but apparently youre here to ridicule. i asked this forum for help with what i needed, i got it to an extent, along with realizing i dont really care to be a member of these forums any longer. the bad often leaves the good unspoken for, but ive never seen a forum group quite as rude as this one. I won't be visiting here again, and if an admin would kindly delete my account it would be much appreciated.

Once again i dont mean to refer to everyone here, some were very pleasant to talk to, but i find many people here just seemed to be ******'s and do nothing but annoy me. Being knowledgable in YOUR field doesnt give you the right to be an ass, get off your high horse, because its very likely your an idiot in another field. Thanks for the help from the one's who cared enough to give it. Last post.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Very sad situation all around. I'm sorry that your dogs will be suffering because of you, and I'm sorry you couldn't actually ask for the correct information before jumping the gun. 

I don't think you have ANY idea what you're in for, and unfortunately, neither do the dogs. 

No one is on a high horse here, we're just very knowledgable and care about the dogs more than the people in most cases, so we aren't afraid to upset or offend you after trying not to so that you'll listen to us.


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## JeanieStecher (May 26, 2010)

Hi there! KBlover is correct. I myself had one which is 15 month old when I got her. Though as they said that old dogs learn no new tricks yet it was not the case for me. I managed to teach her simple things like knowing me as her master, teaching her not to poop on the lawn and got her into discipline classes. It all worked out fine. It is just you need a little more effort on the patience thing. =)


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

There is a reason why the laws exists, and that reason is for your protection and for the protection of the pups. 6 weeks old is way to young to be away from it's mother and siblings. Just because a puppy is eating puppy food now doesn't mean it should be sold. Also since your breeder decided 6 weeks was ok, we know that your brought from someone who just breeds dogs as you use to, without a care to the long term health of your puppy and the breed. That's also something I even tried to talk to you about early on. Now you have a crab shoot on what you got. You really have no clue what to expect with your pup as an adult. You have no clue what the grandparents of your BC died from, maybe they all died from Cancer which is passed down through genetics, or maybe one of them had hip issues which will end up causing your BC issues before the age of two. People who just breed their dogs for money never are thinking about you or your puppy, then are only thinking about that money that is going into their pockets. Not even including how often that momma BC is being bred (no dog should be bred every time it comes into heat. It's stressful on the dogs body and can be dangerous)

The actions you have taken, going against much of what we said is what I was talking to you about, why we get so snippy and angry on here. We don't sit here and tell people these things for fun, we hope to educate people and hope we make the lives of the dogs that much better. It's like being slapped in the face when you spend hours talking to someone only for them to go out and do just what they were originally going to do. We could have helped you found a good breeder, or even a good young rescue BC. I think you made a BIG mistake on choosing that breed and the dog will suffer from it. Rather you had your hearts set on it or not. I personally have my heart set on a Male Doberman Pincher, was out searching hard for a breeder and all, and decided last min that it wouldn't be the right time for one in my house. I'll still get one when I'm better prepared but for right now I'm sticking to Pit Bulls. I'm hoping to have a second one here in the next year. I've been planning out a puppy now for 2 years. I'm in the process of finding a GOOD breeder who has what I want (Good stock of dogs from good lines, with a good prey/work drive but the ability to have an off switch, good health in all gens going back, and the breeder who I could be good friends with and ask all my questions too when I have them). A friend of mine has a male that I love, but might choose a female that I'm not to fond of. So I might be searching longer then I want, but it will be worth it.

Just because you have your heart set on something, doesn't mean it's a good choice for that time being. More so with your allergies. A Long haired dog that needs to be brushed and have burrs taking out of their fur all the time? Your asking for problems. 

I really wish you luck. Maybe stop at the stickies near the top of this Training forum and pick up some of the recommended reading. I think it would do you some good. Oh and also I recommend you reading http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/2201-breeding-issue-his-name.html just for a reason why we are so rough on breeders and who people choose to buy from.


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## kokobear (Jul 17, 2010)

never too old to adopt a dog - especially an aussie - we have adopted many in our family and they all have been great dogs. they are soooo willing to please you and so loyal that adopting at any age is ok. we adopted our black tri at 6 months old - i'll never forget when the husband picked her up - she did not want to get in the truck - brought her home and for several days she did not want to get in the truck - today we can't keep her out of the truck. when she see's you going to the truck she has a fit - she thinks it is her truck and she has to go where it does. it is sooo funny - 

as for the coyotes - i'm not familiar with their behavior, but i know a good aussie will put up a really good fight if need be and probably win. i would lay odds on the fact that the aussie will be ready to "defend her ground" in just a couple of days of adoption. especially females, they seem to be more protective of their owners than the males do. but then again i've had males that would dare you or another dog to come near me. 

i would say go for it - you will never - NEVER own another breed of dog after you have an aussie.


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## JeanieStecher (May 26, 2010)

Well, I agree with you. It is always worth trying since you wont know til you know. I have also experienced that even if a dog is somehow old, he or she can also be taught because they are intelligent animals. Just spend some time with them to train and teach them stuffs.


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