# Lab bites child YET



## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Labrador Bites a child yet they still manage to mention Pit Bulls in this article SMH


> A three-year-old boy could be scarred for life after he was savaged by a dog during a family picnic.
> Logan Trim was left with horrific facial injuries when he was mauled by the black Labrador in a park at Poole Harbour, Dorset.
> The attack was especially shocking as Labradors are known for having an excellent temperament and are friendly around children and other dogs, according to experts.
> The youngster was left covered in blood, and needed 40 stitches to the wounds on his face after the shocking attack, which happened as his mother bent down to stroke a puppy.
> ...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-injuries-Labrador-savages-Poole-Harbour.html


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

well its just a sad situation. and an accident. things happen.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I highly doubt that the kid didn't do anything to provoke the dog. The mother even says she didn't see what happened.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

I kinda was speaking in favor of the dog. Dogs are expected to be fool proof (that is take provocation by humans without Biting) or they are deemed Vicious and killed.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Ugh. No need to mention pit bulls at all in the article, but I guess no one would read it if they didn't mention them at least once.


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## Donna88 (Nov 4, 2013)

I like the comment about the owner not being trusted to have him on a leash or muzzle after the incident.... how can you say that? It's an awful situation and I do feel for the boy and his family, but you cannot blame the owner for this, there is no indication that the dog had a history of aggressive behaviour, noone actually saw what happened and surely the owner did the best she could in that situation, she gave out her contact details and had the dog removed but stayed herself... it wasn't like she made a quick escape herself without leaving any information!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

^Probably because the dog wasn't on a leash when it happened


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## Donna88 (Nov 4, 2013)

Kayota said:


> ^Probably because the dog wasn't on a leash when it happened



But like I said there's no indication he had a history, she chose to take her children up to him seeing he was off leash. I can understand she would be extremely upset and to some extent I can understand wanting the dog put down, but I do not think it's fair to blame the owner. Dogs are always off leash here, unless you find out that they do have a history of aggression personally I wouldn't say every owner who has a dog off leash is a irresponsible one.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

And, child in that moment was unsupervised. So dog even had it been leashed would not have been the least bit inhibited from biting.
(I just knew the unleashed thing was going to come up!)...


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Kids, dogs, and no adults do not mix, period. I wouldn't trust any dog alone with kids, I don't even trust my dogs alone with each other.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

That poor kid... He's going to be scarred for life both mentally and physically. The part of this article that doesn't feel right to me (besides the whole, "He wasn't a pitbull so it was safe!" part) is that she never said she asked to pet the dogs. She assumed they were friendly because he was off leash near a kids park and the owner was smiling. That's never a good idea, IMO. You should never, never assume that a dog is friendly.

Poor kid. Poor dog.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

This is just awful. I would be upset though too. As a parent, I had my children in a kids park, this lady had her dogs off leash....now, I understand that the dog may or may not have had any prior history, but your in a children s park, children, who run and scream and throw things and act like little fools, the dog should have been leashed not only for everyone else's saftey but the dogs as well. The child wasn't exactly unsupervised, they walked up to the dog, the child right behind mom, she turned for a second to pet the puppy and he dog bit her son. Im not saying he didn't do anything but the situation is bad, what could he have done in a fraction of a second to provoke that kinda behavior in a dog that the owner seemed to think would be safe off leash in a childrens park? 

Sad all around thats for sure.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

I understand the sentiment that the dog may have been provoked, but that is a pretty extreme reaction on the dog's part unless he was fighting for his life. I am hardly one to condemn a dog for landing a bite, and I have known _many_ with bite histories who gave excellent warning signals and were more than capable of being trained and managed safely, but a dog who does this much damage so quickly is a huge red flag. He mauled that kid. This wasn't a warning bite, it wasn't "get away from me, I don't like that." To do that kind of damage, we're talking about clamping down and shaking, probably. It is hard for dogs like this to live safely in society. That's not a moral judgement, it's just a fact. When a dog will do that much damage that quickly, without very specific triggers, it is hard for to find a place for it in society. 

I am sure there is more to the story. And maybe the dog "doesn't have a history of aggression" but maybe they were warning signs that the dog didn't like strangers, kids, etc. Regardless, this being the dog's first bite, this dog is very inclined to do serious damage and the owner is obviously incapable of managing it. 

I hope the little boy recovers quickly. My heart breaks for him and I hope he isn't left with lifelong fear of dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> what could he have done in a fraction of a second to provoke that kinda behavior in a dog


Oh, grabbed his ear, stuck a finger in his eye, who knows. Kids are fast and dogs are faster. Sad all around .


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Emily1188 said:


> I understand the sentiment that the dog may have been provoked, but that is a pretty extreme reaction on the dog's part unless he was fighting for his life. I am hardly one to condemn a dog for landing a bite, and I have known _many_ with bite histories who gave excellent warning signals and were more than capable of being trained and managed safely, but a dog who does this much damage so quickly is a huge red flag. He mauled that kid. This wasn't a warning bite, it wasn't "get away from me, I don't like that." To do that kind of damage, we're talking about clamping down and shaking, probably. It is hard for dogs like this to live safely in society. That's not a moral judgement, it's just a fact. When a dog will do that much damage that quickly, without very specific triggers, it is hard for to find a place for it in society.
> 
> I am sure there is more to the story. And maybe the dog "doesn't have a history of aggression" but maybe they were warning signs that the dog didn't like strangers, kids, etc. Regardless, this being the dog's first bite, this dog is very inclined to do serious damage and the owner is obviously incapable of managing it.
> 
> I hope the little boy recovers quickly. My heart breaks for him and I hope he isn't left with lifelong fear of dogs.


That was my point too exactly. What could that little boy possibly of done in that short time frame that provoked that kinda of reaction...


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Oh, grabbed his ear, stuck a finger in his eye, who knows. Kids are fast and dogs are faster. Sad all around .


Well ya, im sure that could have happened, but to maul that terribly, there was no warning, growl, nothing...thats what red flags it to me that the dog isn't being properly managed it doesn't seem. We don't know the whole story and I try to keep that in mind, but thats pretty serious. I blew in my moms pit face once, she growled, I did it again, she nipped...nipped. It was her second warning, at that point my mom caught me and I got in some serious crap. lol. 

I know not all dogs are the same, some have higher tolerance than others, some warn differently, yada yada, but a dog that just lunges and mauls with no warning, is not a dog that needs to be off leash in a park where there are kids.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

You cannot blame the mother for going over to pat the puppy. Since the owner smiled and did not say don't pat the puppy she obviously expected people to come over so must have thought her dogs were safe around strangers. No matter whether the child did something to the dog, it could have moved away as it was not on leash, there was no reason it should have attacked the child like that. Whether the puppy belonged to the dog or not it could have just been protective towards it which the owner may not have realized till too late.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Emily1188 said:


> I understand the sentiment that the dog may have been provoked, but that is a pretty extreme reaction on the dog's part unless he was fighting for his life. I am hardly one to condemn a dog for landing a bite, and I have known _many_ with bite histories who gave excellent warning signals and were more than capable of being trained and managed safely, but a dog who does this much damage so quickly is a huge red flag. He mauled that kid. This wasn't a warning bite, it wasn't "get away from me, I don't like that." To do that kind of damage, we're talking about clamping down and shaking, probably. It is hard for dogs like this to live safely in society. That's not a moral judgement, it's just a fact. When a dog will do that much damage that quickly, without very specific triggers, it is hard for to find a place for it in society.
> 
> I am sure there is more to the story. And maybe the dog "doesn't have a history of aggression" but maybe they were warning signs that the dog didn't like strangers, kids, etc. Regardless, this being the dog's first bite, this dog is very inclined to do serious damage and the owner is obviously incapable of managing it.
> 
> I hope the little boy recovers quickly. My heart breaks for him and I hope he isn't left with lifelong fear of dogs.


I agree with this, whole-heartedly. 

And it just makes me wonder what sort of training/socialization the dog had as a puppy, and how it was bred. I know good breeding doesn't guarantee anything, but I think we'd see a lot less of this sort of stuff if all dogs were bred well and people had some sense in puppy-rearing. That was not an inhibited bite WHATSOEVER, which isn't good. Dogs that can't inhibit their bites if they feel the need to do it are the dogs that are a real danger that make me uncomfortable. 

I've worked with dogs for years and the ones that I love on the grooming table, in the kennel, etc. are the ones that can show clear warning signs that they're uncomfortable and, when pushed passed their threshold, do not maul me, but grab me hard or maybe break just a little skin as a scratch from a tooth. That is acceptable, that is understandable. Going from 0 to 60 in a few moments is not, especially with a human that the dogs KNOWS well. 

And just for the record, I'm not justifying the lack of supervision whatsoever.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

That is a good comment on the lack of bite inhibition. Very important.
I have seen the result of a dog bite on child attempting to remove food from its mouth(in front of childs parent and grandparent, apparently the family dog tolerates this)- and since the dog had bite inhibition, the child recieved a red scratch the equivalent of a fingernail scrape about an inch long-- on her cheek (could have been very very bad) - dog was pretty big as well.
So yeah, the best most safest thing-- leash or No-- is that bite inhibition.

Also one thought I had was whether the dog had any medical conditions-- like an ear infection, or was in pain, and child inadvertantly either hurt dog or made dog think it had to protect its vulnerable spot...

(Was it on this Forum where the familys gentle giant St Bernard killed the 5 yr old, and when they did the autopsy they found a pen shoved down its ear canal?....)


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

BernerMax said:


> (Was it on this Forum where the familys gentle giant St Bernard killed the 5 yr old, and when they did the autopsy they found a pen shoved down its ear canal?....)


I have heard variations on that myth multiple times, sometimes it's a GSD, a Dalmatian, a Lab... and sometimes the object is a pen, a pencil, a crayon, a marker. I don't think it's a real story, but it does serve as a reminder of considering these situations from all perspectives.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I believe the article was from June 16 ..... 2011 .


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## AKdude (Dec 13, 2013)

Cesar Milans worst bite was from a yellow lab who was extremely food aggressive. He got tagged very well.
Its on Utube.

Labs are not the family dogs they are often thought to be imo.


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

Sadly people associate temperament with breed, it could not be more far from the facts. Temperament is for the individual dog, not a breed type. You can have fearful, defensive, insecure animals in any breed and often people learn the hard way or not at all. Best wishes for a full recovery on the boy and hopefully people with fearful, insecure and defensive animals start to learn and protect the unsuspecting public from their misfits rather than flood them with oppertunities to make headlines.

There is no excuse for a bite like that, the animal was not right in the head and no amount of socialization will change that. The owner has to man up and realize that to prevent such occurrences. I am just sick of hearing excuses that the child poked him the eye or whatever. A solid dog does not take that as a life and death situation. He is what he is, he will do what he does, it is up to the stupid idiot holding his leash to recognize that and avoid putting him in such situations.


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## AKdude (Dec 13, 2013)

quatro said:


> Sadly people associate temperament with breed, it could not be more far from the facts. Temperament is for the individual dog, not a breed type. You can have fearful, defensive, insecure animals in any breed and often people learn the hard way or not at all. Best wishes for a full recovery on the boy and hopefully people with fearful, insecure and defensive animals start to learn and protect the unsuspecting public from their misfits rather than flood them with oppertunities to make headlines.
> 
> There is no excuse for a bite like that, the animal was not right in the head and no amount of socialization will change that. The owner has to man up and realize that to prevent such occurrences. I am just sick of hearing excuses that the child poked him the eye or whatever. A solid dog does not take that as a life and death situation. He is what he is, he will do what he does, it is up to the stupid idiot holding his leash to recognize that and avoid putting him in such situations.


Only partly true.
Beagles are the 5th most popular breed in America, they almost NEVER Bite! There is a reason why.
Some breeds generally have low bite thresholds and some high ones.
Some breeds ARE most predisposed TO bite. Thems the facts, mate.


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

Whatever you say man as you know best.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Man, things like this just make my blood boil. 

That woman sure is something else to make assumptions and statements about what she can or can't trust other people to do (muzzle the animal), meanwhile she can't even be trusted to supervise her own 3 yr old child, and around an unknown dog none the less. 

Despicable. 

And that comment about the pitbull/bull terrier. Just dumb. 

That child is more of a victim to an irresponsible parent than a dog. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

hanksimon said:


> I believe the article was from June 16 ..... 2011 .


I didn't look at the date it was on my newsfeed on facebook recently, regardless, it still bothers me that they felt the need to throw in Pit bull, and i do not believe the dog should have been unleashed but the entire situation was just unfortunate


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> I didn't look at the date it was on my newsfeed on facebook recently, regardless, it still bothers me that they felt the need to throw in Pit bull, and i do not believe the dog should have been unleashed but the entire situation was just unfortunate


Completely agree they always seem to be able to mention pit bull in the articles no matter what....


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Once again, a dog will pay the ultimate price for the stupidity of humans. 


When my kids were young, and approached an unknown dog, I would kneel down with the kid between my legs. I would be facing the dog and would help brace the child if the dog became too rowdy. I would also take the bite if the dog lunged at us. Plus, I would not allow the dog to get close to the faces. Most bites on children are of the face. If a puppy the child had to sit and not try to pick up the puppy and carry it around. 

On breeds, all dogs can and do bite. Ear infections, tooth problems will turn the nicest dogs into ornery snapping dogs. Sad that the mother thinks that just because it is not a pitbull it is nice. That mother really needs a lesson on breeds and dog language.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

AKdude said:


> Only partly true.
> Beagles are the 5th most popular breed in America, they almost NEVER Bite! There is a reason why.
> Some breeds generally have low bite thresholds and some high ones.
> Some breeds ARE most predisposed TO bite. Thems the facts, mate.


My brothers and mine worse bite was from a beagle....just saying...but I agree with you on breeds are set to have a certain temperment...however Quatro is right in the fact that all dogs are different. I have had several Aussies and though they all had Aussie traits, they were all different in temperament.


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## AKdude (Dec 13, 2013)

sclevenger said:


> My brothers and mine worse bite was from a beagle....just saying...but I agree with you on breeds are set to have a certain temperment...however Quatro is right in the fact that all dogs are different. I have had several Aussies and though they all had Aussie traits, they were all different in temperament.


Beagles are chosen by many Labs as experminental dogs for their lack of biting initative.
Of course there are poorly bred beagles, but they are a huge exception.
And now there is alot of cross breeding from mills, the new rage.
But Cockers, JRTs and other small dogs are much more predisposed to bite. A well bred beagle is very docile.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

AKdude said:


> A well bred beagle is very docile.


So is a well-bred Cocker. 

A well-bred JRT is anything but docile. 

What is the point of this?

Sorry, poorly bred Beagles aren't the "huge exception" you believe. I see plenty of them.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

AKdude said:


> Beagles are chosen by many Labs as experminental dogs for their lack of biting initative.
> Of course there are poorly bred beagles, but they are a huge exception.
> And now there is alot of cross breeding from mills, the new rage.
> But Cockers, JRTs and other small dogs are much more predisposed to bite. A well bred beagle is very docile.


You should judge a dog's temperament on breed. There are plenty of "unsafe" individual dogs in "safe" breeds. You don't know if a dog is well bred or not from a distance. I'm of the opinion that no dog should be judged on appearances. All dogs deserve a healthy respect because they all have teeth. Always ask to pet a dog before reaching your hand out or encouraging a child to pet a dog.


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## AKdude (Dec 13, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> So is a well-bred Cocker.
> 
> A well-bred JRT is anything but docile.
> What is the point of this?
> Sorry, poorly bred Beagles aren't the "huge exception" you believe. I see plenty of them.


No
Just because YOU see beagles YOU dont like, it doesnt mean a dam thing.
The fact IS, is that beagles are chosen by laboratories FOR their docile temperment.


> "Beagles are the vivisectors' choice of dog because they are gentle and easy to handle. What a way to repay these trusting animals. It is not hard to imagine the stress the animals feel, being locked up for life with scant attention paid to their individual physical and emotional needs. Anyone who has ever had a dog as a companion will be able to relate to the terrible suffering of these animals," says SAFE director Hans Kriek.



They are recommended BY Vets for families FOR their docile temperments. 
http://www.petmd.com/dog/top_tens/evr_dg_top_10_for_kids#.UqyFg-WPAik


What you offered was anedotal BS.
In truth, Cockers are NOT docile, they are a wired breed, and they are hunting dogs, especially in their native land of England.
In USA most are poorly breed and are near the top of the worst biters in the dog breed category. Springers almost the same...springer rage is a syndrome exclusive to Springers (Springers and Cockers were once the SAME breed.)

The point of this is that there are breeds that are generally very well natured and others that are not.
Thank you for your comment, however inane it was.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

AKdude said:


> No
> Just because YOU see beagles YOU dont like, it doesnt mean a dam thing.
> The fact IS, is that beagles are chosen by laboratories FOR their docile temperment.
> 
> ...


From the AKC page on Cockers: "Cockers are intelligent, gentle dogs that thrive as part of a family."

Most dogs are bred to get along and enjoy human companionship. Some dogs are less tolerant than others.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I saw a dog whisperer episode with a very aggressive beagle on it... All dogs can bite, thanks to their teeth. Vets recommend labs and goldens, too, and they are starting to be one of the worst biters.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

AKdude said:


> No
> Just because YOU see beagles YOU dont like, it doesnt mean a dam thing.
> The fact IS, is that beagles are chosen by laboratories FOR their docile temperment.
> 
> ...


Ok well...

First, let's address rage syndrome. Rage syndrome is not temperament and has nothing to do with temperament. It is properly called episodic dyscontrol, and is related basically related to seizure activity. It is a disease, first and foremost, not a snappy, weak temperament. Secondly, it is rare. Thirdly, ignorant people parroting "rage" as a component of poor temperament and the "reason" that spaniels of various breeds bite are responsible for propagating a gross misunderstanding of both the proper temperament of these breeds, and this very grave neurological disorder. So thank you for that. 

The proper temperament of the spaniel breeds is friendly, tolerant, merry, and extremely family oriented. I don't give a rat's back end what dogs from puppy mills, backyard breeders, and breeders who don't pay mind to temperament produce. A Cocker of proper temperament is an exceedingly tolerant dog. I will put my mom's English Cocker of excellent pedigree up against any Beagle in regards to human friendliness and bite inclination. I feel bad for you if you have not experienced a properly bred spaniel; they are joyous and loyal dogs. I have met the crappy ones myself, but guess what? That has nothing to do with well bred dogs. The poor temperament in Cockers is related to their outrageous popularity and production in puppy mills, BYBs, and show breeders who don't care about temperament (not all show breeders, to be clear, just the ones that don't care about temperament). A properly bred Cocker isn't likely to bite. 

I am glad you are really into Beagles, someone has to be. But really, Cockers are wired because they're hunting dogs? You do realize THAT BEAGLES ARE HUNTING DOGS AS WELL? LOL Are you really serious???? Gee, it's not like Beagles are bred to hunt and trail rabbits and other various game.... lol Yes, Cockers are hunters, in fact... the purebred Cocker I live with is from parents that Field Championed titled and hunt pheasant regularly. That said, nothing about their role in hunting promotes aggression (nor are they ever responsible for killing). My dogs' parents live in his breeder's house and play with her kids. Aggressive because they're hunting dogs? That's honestly hilarious, especially when Beagles are often hardcore hunting dogs as well.

There are plenty of snappy Beagles out there, so the idea that there aren't poorly bred Beagles out there is humorous. Do you work with dogs? How many dogs do you see in an average day? I see at least 50+. _At least._ I do see trends amongst breeds. It's only reasonable to assume that breeds with the original purpose of fighting, guarding, herding (very nippy), killing prey, etc will show some sort of aggression in certain situations, generally speaking. That said, I know of plenty examples of generally easy-going breeds who will show aggression when pushed. One of the edgiest Beagles I know is from a mill that was producing dogs for laboratories. 

Reality is that for some breeds, predictable aggression, especially towards strange people or strange dogs in certain situations, is a part of proper temperament. I don't want a Malinois with no aggression. That's not what they are or what they should be. But Cockers? Because they're hunting dogs? No way.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

AKdude said:


> No
> Just because YOU see beagles YOU dont like, it doesnt mean a dam thing.
> The fact IS, is that beagles are chosen by laboratories FOR their docile temperment.
> 
> ...


Please read the forum rules, swearing and insults are NOT tolerated here. Any further infractions will result in a timeout, possibly a permanent one.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Please read the forum rules, swearing and insults are NOT tolerated here. Any further infractions will result in a timeout, possibly a permanent one.


I may have been a little rough around the edges too, and I apologize. I edited my post and I think it's more appropriate now. I got my feathers a little ruffled, lol.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Emily1188 said:


> I may have been a little rough around the edges too, and I apologize. I edited my post and I think it's more appropriate now. I got my feathers a little ruffled, lol.


No worries, you may have been a bit rough around the edges, but if we banned people for that, half our membership would be gone!  In this case, you didn't cross the line into name calling, insults or swearing, so you're good, but the edit and apology are very much appreciated, thank you.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

AKdude said:


> Cesar Milans worst bite was from a yellow lab who was extremely food aggressive. He got tagged very well.
> Its on Utube.
> 
> Labs are not the family dogs they are often thought to be imo.


Cesar Milan harassed that dog into biting him. The dog throws many VERY clear warning signals.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Emily1188 said:


> Ok well...
> 
> First, let's address rage syndrome. Rage syndrome is not temperament and has nothing to do with temperament. It is properly called episodic dyscontrol, and is related basically related to seizure activity. It is a disease, first and foremost, not a snappy, weak temperament. Secondly, it is rare. Thirdly, ignorant people parroting "rage" as a component of poor temperament and the "reason" that spaniels of various breeds bite are responsible for propagating a gross misunderstanding of both the proper temperament of these breeds, and this very grave neurological disorder. So thank you for that.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post. As someone that has owned rescued Cockers for over 27 yrs (and they were most likely poorly bred), I've NEVER had one that ever bit. One loved kids so much, she would try to drag me over to them on walks, so she could sit and be petted by them. I even had a little girl that would come to my door and ask "Can Annie come out and play?" (Annie was the Cocker.)


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

spotted nikes said:


> Thank you for this post. As someone that has owned rescued Cockers for over 27 yrs (and they were most likely poorly bred), I've NEVER had one that ever bit. One loved kids so much, she would try to drag me over to them on walks, so she could sit and be petted by them. I even had a little girl that would come to my door and ask "Can Annie come out and play?" (Annie was the Cocker.)


Ya I agree, all the cockers Ive been around have been amazing littler dogs, including the poorly bred one that peed everywhere if you looked at it wrong my mom brought home as kids was amazing lol. I have however been around several beagles there were snappy and not very tolerant especially when food was involved, i've also been around some really awesome amazing beagles, I loved beagles, amazing dogs that I would recommend to families, but to say that only ill bred beagles are bad is ludicrous.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> Thank you for this post. As someone that has owned rescued Cockers for over 27 yrs (and they were most likely poorly bred), I've NEVER had one that ever bit. One loved kids so much, she would try to drag me over to them on walks, so she could sit and be petted by them. I even had a little girl that would come to my door and ask "Can Annie come out and play?" (Annie was the Cocker.)


A good Cocker is a joy to own.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

So one of the kennel workers got a nip on the hand today. By what breed? A beagle. He was lifting a dog up to the table and the dog bit at his hand. No skin breakage. The dog was trying hard to bite him but luckily the kennel guy was faster than the beagle. 

To play it safe it is wise to think all dogs can bite and when they don't it is a good day.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I saw a dog whisperer episode with a very aggressive beagle on it... All dogs can bite, thanks to their teeth. Vets recommend *labs and goldens, too, and they are starting to be one of the worst biters.*


IMO

It's because Labs & Goldens(& many other breeds) are being over-bred. Many people breed dogs, not caring about the dogs temperament. Not caring if the dog is genetically sound. Others don't realize that the dogs there breeding is not fit to breed.

Even if the dog was correctly bred, it still does, have the potential to bite.

But there are other things to consider on why a dog bites. I'm not saying the Lab bit just because of it was poorly bred .Did the Lab attack,because the dog was poorly bred? Maybe, or maybe not. 

For situation like this-I think- you need to be there when the Lab attacked, to judge the situation. Also, know the history of the Lab, know where the Lab came from, & if the Lab had any health problems at the time.

Sorry to rant, situations like this bug me. I really feel bad for the dog, & the boy. I hope the boy has a fast recovery, & that this won't cause him to have a fear of dogs.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

luv mi pets said:


> So one of the kennel workers got a nip on the hand today. By what breed? A beagle. He was lifting a dog up to the table and the dog bit at his hand. No skin breakage. The dog was trying hard to bite him but luckily the kennel guy was faster than the beagle.
> 
> *To play it safe it is wise to think all dogs can bite and when they don't it is a good day.*


Can't be true! Beagles don't bite!!! lol

ITA with the bolded part. I assume the worst, hope for the best, and take each individual dog's body language for what it is. I don't make assumptions based on breed. I do realize a Chow is more likely to be intolerant of grooming than, say, a Golden, because it's the nature of Chows to be intolerant of strangers handling them. But that doesn't mean I assume a Golden won't bite, or that I assume a Chow who is giving me happy, relaxed body language is going to bite just because of its breed.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes, the tolerance level is lowered when a gloved lubricated finger is doing a anal gland check. I am so thankful humans do not have these. I have noted tolerance level lowered during nail trims too. The most docile dog can and do turn into lunatics during these procedures. Kids are curious and want to hold the paws of dogs. For the dog who does not like its feet touched could result in a bite. No breed of dog should be considered 'safe', individual dog maybe, but not breed. Even individual dog, I would still supervise around kids. Not only to protect the kids but my dog as well.


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## AKdude (Dec 13, 2013)

Kayota said:


> Cesar Milan harassed that dog into biting him. The dog throws many VERY clear warning signals.


NO he didnt.
The bite was unprovoked and unsolicited.
EVERY dog should be safe around food and accept being petted. 
Go back and watch the video and then watch it again and again, as youre not smart enough to know what youre seeing.


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## AKdude (Dec 13, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> Can't be true! Beagles don't bite!!! lol
> 
> ITA with the bolded part. I assume the worst, hope for the best, and take each individual dog's body language for what it is. I don't make assumptions based on breed. I do realize a Chow is more likely to be intolerant of grooming than, say, a Golden, because it's the nature of Chows to be intolerant of strangers handling them. But that doesn't mean I assume a Golden won't bite, or that I assume a Chow who is giving me happy, relaxed body language is going to bite just because of its breed.


Show me anywhere I said any dog including beagles, dont bite...

I said they rarely bite and are in fact chosen by Labs which do experiments for their docile temperment.

Exceptions to every rule but almost all lines of beagles are docile, Notice almost.

*"Beagles are the vivisectors' choice of dog because they are gentle and easy to handle. What a way to repay these trusting animals. It is not hard to imagine the stress the animals feel, being locked up for life with scant attention paid to their individual physical and emotional needs. Anyone who has ever had a dog as a companion will be able to relate to the terrible suffering of these animals," says SAFE director Hans Kriek.*


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

AKdude said:


> NO he didnt.
> The bite was unprovoked and unsolicited.
> EVERY dog should be safe around food and accept being petted.
> Go back and watch the video and then watch it again and again, as youre not smart enough to know what youre seeing.


 It is VERY natural for a dog to guard food,and while i have never had a dog who had food aggression issues that is only because I lucked out & i have worked with all my dogs so they have the understanding that i control resources.. ALL of my dogs will guard food toward another animal no exceptions!

maybe YOU need to go back and watch that video, that dog did NOT want to bite, the dog gave so many signals, and only wanted to be left alone, the dog did not bite over food, the dog bit him because Cesar was terrifying that dog, that is the absolute WORST way to deal with food aggression how about you rewatch it!?


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

AKdude said:


> NO he didnt.
> The bite was unprovoked and unsolicited.
> EVERY dog should be safe around food and accept being petted.
> Go back and watch the video and then watch it again and again, as youre not smart enough to know what youre seeing.


The dog gave him clear warning signals and he ignored them. Then he proceeded to corner the dog, advance in a threatening manner, and big shocker, the dog nailed him. It COULD NOT possibly have been more plain that a bite was coming, unless that dog held up a flashing neon sign. It was absolutely avoidable. 

Yes, dogs should be safe around food for practical purposes. No, harassing them over it isn't the way to accomplish that. It's a great way to get bit, though! 

You know, if you can honestly defend Millan's handling of that dog, I don't think I want to spend my time arguing with you. There are some things that just aren't worth it.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

AKdude said:


> You are competley wrong, yet again. There was no harassment except when Cesar took a growl and established dominance, but that wasnt harassment.
> Dog got very aggressive, unsolicited at 28 seconds, Cesar was simply standing over the dog which gave an aggressive unwarranted ominous growl.
> 
> The real bite came when Cesar took a knee and was talking.
> ...


Never mind, just... never mind. I don't argue with people who are so sorely under educated. The "ignore" feature was meant for these sorts of things. See ya never!


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## AKdude (Dec 13, 2013)

Emily1188 said:


> Ok well...
> 
> First, let's address rage syndrome. Rage syndrome is not temperament and has nothing to do with temperament. It is properly called episodic dyscontrol, and is related basically related to seizure activity. It is a disease, first and foremost, not a snappy, weak temperament. Secondly, it is rare. Thirdly, ignorant people parroting "rage" as a component of poor temperament and the "reason" that spaniels of various breeds bite are responsible for propagating a gross misunderstanding of both the proper temperament of these breeds, and this very grave neurological disorder. So thank you for that.


Springers are well known for it...
'Episodic dyscontrol' is akin to Roid Rage...otherwise lenience, legitimacy and justification to defective temperment issues.



> The proper temperament of the spaniel breeds is friendly, tolerant, merry, and extremely family oriented. I don't give a rat's back end what dogs from puppy mills, backyard breeders, and breeders who don't pay mind to temperament produce. A Cocker of proper temperament is an exceedingly tolerant dog. I will put my mom's English Cocker of excellent pedigree up against any Beagle in regards to human friendliness and bite inclination. I feel bad for you if you have not experienced a properly bred spaniel; they are joyous and loyal dogs. I have met the crappy ones myself, but guess what? That has nothing to do with well bred dogs. The poor temperament in Cockers is related to their outrageous popularity and production in puppy mills, BYBs, and show breeders who don't care about temperament (not all show breeders, to be clear, just the ones that don't care about temperament). A properly bred Cocker isn't likely to bite.


Spaniels practically lead the industry of dog bites....




> I am glad you are really into Beagles, someone has to be. But really, Cockers are wired because they're hunting dogs? You do realize THAT BEAGLES ARE HUNTING DOGS AS WELL? LOL Are you really serious???? Gee, it's not like Beagles are bred to hunt and trail rabbits and other various game.... lol Yes, Cockers are hunters, in fact... the purebred Cocker I live with is from parents that Field Championed titled and hunt pheasant regularly. That said, nothing about their role in hunting promotes aggression (nor are they ever responsible for killing). My dogs' parents live in his breeder's house and play with her kids. Aggressive because they're hunting dogs? That's honestly hilarious, especially when Beagles are often hardcore hunting dogs as well.


They are both hunting dogs true, but they couldnt be more dissimilar in how they hunt or in temperment. 
One is a Hound. The other an upland dog used to quarter.
Everything about them is different except for the fact that they are dogs.




> There are plenty of snappy Beagles out there, so the idea that there aren't poorly bred Beagles out there is humorous. Do you work with dogs? How many dogs do you see in an average day? I see at least 50+. _At least._ I do see trends amongst breeds. It's only reasonable to assume that breeds with the original purpose of fighting, guarding, herding (very nippy), killing prey, etc will show some sort of aggression in certain situations, generally speaking. That said, I know of plenty examples of generally easy-going breeds who will show aggression when pushed. One of the edgiest Beagles I know is from a mill that was producing dogs for laboratories.


I hunt alot and work with alot of dogs, also did protection work and have seen hundreds and hundreds of dogs. Beagles are very low on the list of biters, especially for being the 5th most popular dog in america.




> Reality is that for some breeds, predictable aggression, especially towards strange people or strange dogs in certain situations, is a part of proper temperament. I don't want a Malinois with no aggression. That's not what they are or what they should be. But Cockers? Because they're hunting dogs? No way.


Insurance companies know alot better than you as they insure said bites and dogs and have the data on cockers biting. Its extremly high.

The AVMA (Natl Animal Control) has Chows, Pits, Rotts, Labs, Springers, Cockers, JRTs, Lhasa, St Bernard, Husky, Akita, Bull Terrier, GSD, poodel, shih tsu, Dobes as the most frequent culprits in dog bites, year in, year out.
https://www.avma.org/KB/Resources/B...of-Breed-in-Dog-Bite-Risk-and-Prevention.aspx


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## AKdude (Dec 13, 2013)

Arguing that some breeds are not more predisposed to bite, is like arguing that some breeds do not possess greater intelligence and trainability over others.

It is complete nonsense for practical purposes.

Generalizations are fair and are based on reality for the most part, barring occasional anomolies and exceptions. 

There are definate breed trends and why Insurance companies employ actuaries to account for this research and forecasting, based on actual accounting of bites and statistical analysis.
The giant X factor is training, socialization, predicament.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

AKdude said:


> NO he didnt.
> The bite was unprovoked and unsolicited.
> EVERY dog should be safe around food and accept being petted.
> Go back and watch the video and then watch it again and again, as youre not smart enough to know what youre seeing.


Oh come on.... That dog threw every signal for him to 'go away' possible. If Cesar had backed off there would be no bite. The dog growled, lick lipped, ears back, turned away... Pretty much flashing neon lights saying 'I don't like this. I'm going to bite if you keep on!' 

Intelligent people would back off when the dog starts warning then work with the dog under the threshold and work on the resource guarding issue. 

Why was he posturing over the dog, poking it in the side, etc if the attack was completely unprovoked?


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

AKdude said:


> You are competley wrong, yet again. There was no harassment except when Cesar took a growl and established dominance, but that wasnt harassment.
> Dog got very aggressive, unsolicited at 28 seconds, Cesar was simply standing over the dog which gave an aggressive unwarranted ominous growl.
> 
> The real bite came when Cesar took a knee and was talking.
> ...


 Growling isn't the only warning signal, there were A LOT of warning signals given, even right before the bite. Once Cesar hits her in the neck and "takes over" the bowl, Holly flicks her tongue and blinks quickly saying "You can have the bowl i just want space", and he KEEPS COMING, and she lowers her head,lowers her body, her ears, blinks quickly, looks away,flicks her tongue ALL of these are signs that she just wants space and wants to avoid any further conflict. He than reaches out to her with THE SAME HAND HE HIT HER WITH, and there were no warning signals?? You my friend are the uneducated one, i think you should take some time into understanding dog body language.. This dog gave VERY clear signs that she did not want to bite and only wanted to avoid further conflict!





this link really breaks down what happened between Cesar and Holly
http://canineaggression.blogspot.com/2012/09/food-aggression-and-famous-trainer.html


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

If any strange man came looming over me in a ninja pose after I asked him not to, I'd bite him too.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

You should also check out these links about Cesar Millan, and why his training is flawed 
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance?/dominance.php
http://4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha_20415-1.html
http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/
http://www.squidoo.com/collars-shock


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Only people with violent criminals in their background will hit you. It's totally genetic! So if you want to rough up someone whose ancestors were pacifists, you're perfectly safe! 

LOL.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Even Ceasar states that he was shocked by the reaction of the dog. Yet when he gets back in the van and watches the video from all angles, he will see the dog was giving out signals loud and clear. Unprovoked, hardly, a known dog who shows nothing but fear aggression surrounded by strange people with strange devices closing in on a dog would not be considered unprovoked. Ceasar does things to animals to illicit a response, he wants the animals to act in the way the owner has seen the dog react. This also makes for good ratings, something that is required for a show to stay on the air.

As far as bites goes, it is the unreported bites that matter too. 

according to this survey beagles were known to show aggression more to the owner than a stranger. http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.com/article/S0168-1591(08)00114-7/abstract Parents are more likely to seek medical help and report a dog bite from a big dog than a small dog.

this did not make world news but if it was a pit bull it probably would have. 

In Illinois last week, Linda Floyd had to have her dachshund, called Roscoe, put down after the dog gnawed off her big toe while she slept. Mrs. Floyd, 56, woke up too late because nerve damage from diabetes had left her with no feeling in her toes. http://www.network54.com/Forum/4810...rsity+of+Penn+release+Dog+Aggression+Report+-


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

AKdude said:


> NO he didnt.
> The bite was unprovoked and unsolicited.
> EVERY dog should be safe around food and accept being petted.
> Go back and watch the video and then watch it again and again, as youre not smart enough to know what youre seeing.


Just stop arguing, you clearly don't know much about dogs.The more you say, the more it shows how uneducated you are!

Do you know anything about dog body language? Because from what I saw, it seems you don't.

In the video, as many others have said, the dog SHOWS warning signals.



Adjecyca1 said:


> Growling isn't the only warning signal, there were A LOT of warning signals given, even right before the bite. Once Cesar hits her in the neck and "takes over" the bowl, Holly flicks her tongue and blinks quickly saying "You can have the bowl i just want space", and he KEEPS COMING, and she lowers her head,lowers her body, her ears, blinks quickly, looks away,flicks her tongue ALL of these are signs that she just wants space and wants to avoid any further conflict. He than reaches out to her with THE SAME HAND HE HIT HER WITH, and there were no warning signals?? You my friend are the uneducated one, i think you should take some time into understanding dog body language.. This dog gave VERY clear signs that she did not want to bite and only wanted to avoid further conflict!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^^^
This

I completely agree with you, everything you said.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I always go by the rule that anything with teeth can and will bite under certain circumstances. What those circumstances are changes from animal to animal, but the potential is always there.

That being the case, I always exercise caution when interacting with dogs I don't know, even if they seem friendly. At the shelter my personal rule is "If I do something stupid out of ignorance to their background and temperament that the dog doesn't like and they bite me, they're the one that's going to pay the price for it, not me." I don't feel entitled to take the chance with THEIR life, so I always play it way on the safe side.


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## Robbi (Nov 19, 2013)

it's really sad that they have to involve pitbulls in all violent dog attacks even if a pit wasn't even remotely involved...it's just perpetuating the stereotype that pitbulls are vicious dogs. Sad.

Regardless this is a tragedy. People greet each other in a very different way than dogs do, they greet in a way that can almost seem threatening to a dog, straight on, extending limbs, and looking them straight in the eye...that can seem scary to a dog, add a child who doesn't understand the personal space dogs sometimes need and it can be a complete disaster...sad though.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> It is VERY natural for a dog to guard food,and while i have never had a dog who had food aggression issues that is only because I lucked out & i have worked with all my dogs so they have the understanding that i control resources.. ALL of my dogs will guard food toward another animal no exceptions!
> 
> maybe YOU need to go back and watch that video, that dog did NOT want to bite, the dog gave so many signals, and only wanted to be left alone, the dog did not bite over food, the dog bit him because Cesar was terrifying that dog, that is the absolute WORST way to deal with food aggression how about you rewatch it!?


honestly... faxon had food aggression and i LEFT HER ALONE during meal times. simple.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Kayota said:


> honestly... faxon had food aggression and i LEFT HER ALONE during meal times. simple.


 I never had to deal with food aggression, but it is really simple to manage.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

Kayota said:


> honestly... faxon had food aggression and i LEFT HER ALONE during meal times. simple.


Not so much with kids and guests though...a ticking time bomb if you ask me. Or having your wife clean and accidentally trip and land on/near the dogs bowl at cleaning.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Growling isn't the only warning signal, there were A LOT of warning signals given, even right before the bite.


I reviewed it 5 times and didnt see many, and apparently, neither did Cesar Milan who has rebabbed and worked thousands and thousands of dogs and seen lots of aggression.
Cesar learned dogs from a friend of mine who trained protection dogs in Europe and here in the states for many Depts. He is well qualified.



> Once Cesar hits her in the neck and "takes over" the bowl, Holly flicks her tongue and blinks quickly saying "You can have the bowl i just want space",


Dogs lick their lips at feed time, thats very normal and not an indication of defensive posture.



> and he KEEPS COMING, and she lowers her head,lowers her body, her ears, blinks quickly, looks away,flicks her tongue ALL of these are signs that she just wants space and wants to avoid any further conflict.


Looking away is submissive. Not defensive or aggressive.
Biting a man is totally unnatural to a domesticated dog, feeding aggression isnt nor shouldnt be tolerated imho.
Holly was laying down when she bit him, Cesar reached out to pet her and got bitten, thinking the problem was over-I didnt see a growl, snarling teeth, low bark, ears back nothing defensive or aggressive.



> He than reaches out to her with THE SAME HAND HE HIT HER WITH, and there were no warning signals??


I think looking away is a submissive sign, not a dominant or defensive one.
Licking lips is normal at feed time. We are not seeing the same thing.
And I NEVER saw Cesar Ever hit Holly.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

I've followed this thread but had no desire to comment on anything until now. 

But seriously Gunther? Thanks for the tidbit of completely unrelated information that a dog licks it's lips during meal time. Are you actually trying to say that the Lab in that video clip is licking her chops because of the few pieces of kibble that were thrown into that food bowl? That's what you got from that video? 

If so, you should take notice of the fact that dogs also lick their lips when feeling anxious or in times of distress. That way, if you ever come across a dog that is actually troubled and begins licking it's lips, you won't be scratching your head trying to figure out where that piece of steak must be hiding. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

BubbaMoose said:


> I've followed this thread but had no desire to comment on anything until now.
> 
> But seriously Gunther? Thanks for the tidbit of completely unrelated information that a dog licks it's lips during meal time. Are you actually trying to say that the Lab in that video clip is licking her chops because of the few pieces of kibble that were thrown into that food bowl? That's what you got from that video?
> 
> ...



Holly began feeding as soon as the bowl was put down, and had a few chews in, she made her first lunge at Cesar at 21 seconds in, but he reached back to avoid a bite. This was unprovoked and uncalled for. 

The dog is not stable imho.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

BubbaMoose said:


> I've followed this thread but had no desire to comment on anything until now.
> 
> But seriously Gunther? Thanks for the tidbit of completely unrelated information that a dog licks it's lips during meal time. Are you actually trying to say that the Lab in that video clip is licking her chops because of the few pieces of kibble that were thrown into that food bowl? That's what you got from that video?
> 
> If so, you should take notice of the fact that dogs also lick their lips when feeling anxious or in times of distress.


Sometimes..but when feeding its hard to decipher.



















This is defensive aggression. tell tale warning signs. Licking lips at feed time is not.
I dont want to have to read a dog to tell if its safe to pet, if I do that dog wont be fed long by me. 
Might eat lead instead of kibble. 
Sorry. No excuses.
Were this a child, he would need a new face.

Even the canine behaviorialist posted an addendum to his analysis and said


> I also agree that, in its current state, this dog is NOT safe around small children.
> The trainer publicizing this clip raised questions that parties asked me, and I responded in a fair, balanced manner leaving value judgments aside.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

If I had a food aggressive dog I would not just leave it alone when eating.that is an accident waiting to happen!


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

gsdhunter said:


> If I had a food aggressive dog I would not just leave it alone when eating.that is an accident waiting to happen!


X2!!!! Or +1 whatever you prefer..
Well said.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

This is another good play by play of why he SHOULD have seen it coming.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I expect my dogs to allow me to handle their food without incident. I've had a couple minor resource guarders and that was all solved.

But allowing a stranger to squat over the dog's food dish, advance on the dog, jab it in the side of the neck, advance on the dog some more (with film equipment following too)... is not 'not provoking' a bite. It's also not a good way to handle resource guarding and I'd expect many dogs to bite in that situation. One of my current dogs might would bite although I think as soon as he started looming over her, she'd be trying to flee and barking and growling. She doesn't like strangers and is very sensitive to strangers acting 'weird'. They put that lab in a really strange situation and didn't give her a chance to flee (because Cesar comes after her doing weird ninja-esque poses). It's all for ratings and not for dog training.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Gunther said:


> Holly began feeding as soon as the bowl was put down, and had a few chews in, she made her first lunge at Cesar at 21 seconds in, but he reached back to avoid a bite. This was unprovoked and uncalled for.
> 
> The dog is not stable imho.


She didn't lunge at him until he punched her in the neck.

Food guarding is easy to manage while you try to address the behavior with behavioral modification and training. Put the dog in a crate or behind a baby gate when it is eating and _leave it there and alone_ until done eating. 

If your kids are opening crates and baby gates to come in physical contact with an eating dog, then you have a kid problem as much as a dog problem.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> This is another good play by play of why he SHOULD have seen it coming.


A Human should and must be able to assert HIS dominance OVER any animal, especially at feeding time Whether to move a food bowl or add food to the bowl etc

We can dissect all we want, the truth is that a human either allows this food agggression nonsense or does not.

Cesar did what any other good behavioralist would do, I dont fault him except to say that he was too soft.
That dog wouldve been euthanized that day by me.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I expect my dogs to allow me to handle their food without incident. I've had a couple minor resource guarders and that was all solved.
> 
> But allowing a stranger to squat over the dog's food dish, advance on the dog, jab it in the side of the neck, advance on the dog some more (with film equipment following too)... is not 'not provoking' a bite. It's also not a good way to handle resource guarding and I'd expect many dogs to bite in that situation. One of my current dogs might would bite although I think as soon as he started looming over her, she'd be trying to flee and barking and growling. She doesn't like strangers and is very sensitive to strangers acting 'weird'. They put that lab in a really strange situation and didn't give her a chance to flee (because Cesar comes after her doing weird ninja-esque poses). It's all for ratings and not for dog training.


I did see the 'punch' which was Cesar asserting his dominance, justified in my opinion, as its was after the warning growl. (Thanks for pointing that out though).

Far as food stuff goes, its not just as easy as to crate.
What if food scraps fall on ones family floor, with kids and dogs and mom or kids reaches for the food? We assume this is a family dog and pet.
Kids > dog.

Nope, Not having it. Not excusing this food aggression. You shouldnt either. 
Breeders are not culling.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Gunther said:


> A Human should and must be able to assert HIS dominance OVER any animal, especially at feeding time Whether to move a food bowl or add food to the bowl etc
> 
> We can dissect all we want, the truth is that a human either allows this food agggression nonsense or does not.
> 
> ...


LOL you didn't even have time to watch that before you posted a reply. Why should I take anything you say seriously if you won't even take 5 minutes to look at a breakdown of the incident?

If a dog has a problem, you figure out WHY the dog has a problem and address it using methods that will work. You don't bully the dog into biting you and then call it the dog's fault. 

I have a resource guarder myself who I can now freely take very high value bones away from, something that wouldn't have previously been possible. And no, I did not do it by asserting my dominance.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

AKdude gets banned, Gunther starts posting, using similar sentence structure and sentiments AND on the exact same thread...coincidence or not?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Gunther said:


> A Human should and must be able to assert HIS dominance OVER any animal, especially at feeding time Whether to move a food bowl or add food to the bowl etc
> 
> We can dissect all we want, the truth is that a human either allows this food agggression nonsense or does not.


I don't expect my dogs to behave the same way towards total strangers as they would family members. I would expect my dog to be weirded out by a stranger squatting over their food bowl. 



> Cesar did what any other good behavioralist would do, I dont fault him except to say that he was too soft.
> That dog wouldve been euthanized that day by me.


I doubt a real behaviorist would do what he did. The whole incidence would have probably stopped at the point where the dog is looking away and acting nervous. If it DID go any further it certainly would not have escalated to the bite. A smart person would have stopped after the first air snap and growl (which is the dog saying 'STOP or I WILL bite you') There is no need to pursue the dog like he does and posture over it. That is asking for a bite.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Gunther said:


> Far as food stuff goes, its not just as easy as to crate.


Yes, it really is. 



> What if food scraps fall on ones family floor with kids and dogs and mom reaches for the food?


You don't let the dog in the kitchen where food is being prepared. Or around the dinner table. Or reach for food that falls to the floor. It takes some effort, but it's completely doable. 

And in the meantime, you actually make some effort to teach the dog that s/he doesn't need to guard the food.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

My dog used to growl at me when I fed him or tried to take things away, and I didn't have to punch my dog to do it. Didn't have to stand over him and assert my dominance. Only an idiot wouldn't have seen that bite coming, honestly.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> My dog used to growl at me when I fed him or tried to take things away, and I didn't have to punch my dog to do it. Didn't have to stand over him and assert my dominance. Only an idiot wouldn't have seen that bite coming, honestly.


Someone who knows dog aggression, seen it up close over years of observation, and worked with thousands of dogs apparently did not. 

Justifying dog biting food aggression logic at the expense of a dollar, is why US breeders put out defective dogs and why my wife in the ER wing sees this kind of nonsense every day with kids bitten.


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## Robbi (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm hoping I don't totally alienate myself by saying this but I am not sure I agree with pure dominance approaches. I'm not saying I could do better or know more than Cesar Millan, but I am a logical person who can form my own conclusions and for some reason it seems oddly convenient that in such a complex species there is only one problem ever that needs addressing: dominance. I mean dogs within the same BREED are often wildly different, how can the same problems be affecting every dog through every breed and there is only one solution? It just seems unlikely to me...and honestly it can be more harmful to only have this one idea in mind when addressing a dog's behavior.

I heard a story once about a dog who had a VET DIAGNOSED case of aggressive dominance because he ran to and peed on his owners bed every time his owner told him "no." It turns out it was just a reflex from youth developed from some poor potty training methods and peeing on the pillow was just added by the dog (he was further analyzed by Patricia McConnell, if you don't know her look her up, she's great). The problem was immediately fixed when the owner switched from using "no" to "wrong" to tell his dog he was doing something he wasn't supposed to be....but imagine what could have happened? Maybe the owner stops socializing the dog because he's afraid of his "aggressive dominance," then the dog may develop a fear of other dogs and people and that could have developed into a REAL problem.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Gunther said:


> Someone who knows dog aggression, seen it up close over years of observation, and worked with thousands of dogs apparently did not.
> 
> Justifying dog biting food aggression logic at the expense of a dollar, is why US breeders put out defective dogs and why my wife in the ER wing sees this kind of nonsense every day with kids bitten.


Then I guess I am calling Cesar an idiot. He should have known better.

I never said food aggression was okay. I said dealt with it in my dog and he no longer guards food from people. But if you stand over a food aggressive dog, poke and prod it, and ask why after it bites you, than you are an idiot...


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## Robbi (Nov 19, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Then I guess I am calling Cesar an idiot. He should have known better.
> 
> I never said food aggression was okay. I said dealt with it in my dog and he no longer guards food from people. But if you *stand over a food aggressive dog, poke and prod it, and ask why after it bites you*, than you are an idiot...


I love this. I have to say I have completely changed my perspective on how to confront my dog after really getting to understand the difference between humans and dogs. Standing over a dog, looking them straight in the eyes, and just looming there is an incredibly rude and challenging thing to do. Think about how you greet your friend. You walk straight to them, extend a hand, and look them in the eye. Most dogs don't do this, they meet and communicate in different ways than we do, so how could we every expect them to operate on the same plane of body language as we do? Makes no sense. I honestly feel sorry for dogs because people are just crazed mix signals that often are not correctly interpreted...I mean i feel like there is a better way to say "this is my food, you'll have it when i say" than doing so in such an intimidating and rude fashion...

Not saying that food aggression is anything to be taken lightly, but I feel like it is often inappropriately addressed in a manner that can almost make the problem worse...


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Yes, it really is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If One has to do all of this, WHY have a dog?

I have dogs and kids.
In your world and in mine: My Kids get food and take it with them to OTHER rooms, Food drops, kid and dog reach for it, and your kid is looking for a new face.

No thanks, Ill choose a mentally stable dog. 
You really dont teach a dog to not be food aggressive. If you cant trust your dog around kids with food, that dog should go elsewhere, like doggie heaven or to a place it can be worked if a working dog.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

Robbi said:


> I love this. I have to say I have completely changed my perspective on how to confront my dog after really getting to understand the difference between humans and dogs. Standing over a dog, looking them straight in the eyes, and just looming there is an incredibly rude and challenging thing to do.


Who cares? 
Its a dog for heaven sake. If I cant stare at my dog, why own one?




> Think about how you greet your friend. You walk straight to them, extend a hand, and look them in the eye. Most dogs don't do this, they meet and communicate in different ways than we do, so how could we every expect them to operate on the same plane of body language as we do? Makes no sense.


Dogs arent people, I dont view them as the same, they are animals.





> I honestly feel sorry for dogs because people are just crazed mix signals that often are not correctly interpreted...I mean i feel like there is a better way to say "this is my food, you'll have it when i say" than doing so in such an intimidating and rude fashion...


My dogs are well loved and fed, if they growl they eat lead.
Ive owned Czech import Working GSDs, Rotts and Drahthaars, Soon a Jagd terrier. All can be nasty. If they growl at me, theyre gone. I wont accept defects mentally.



> Not saying that food aggression is anything to be taken lightly, but I feel like it is often inappropriately addressed in a manner that can almost make the problem worse...


A mental defect in the dog will not be addressed except with Euthanasia if a dog ever growls at me or my children, some excuse it for some strange reason and we see the results, these bites proliferate all the time and children pay the price, I guess common sense isnt too common these days, It hardly happened back in the 30s,40s,50s. Now its a phenomenon.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Gunther said:


> If One has to do all of this, WHY have a dog?


Because a tiny bit of effort to keep everyone safe is worth the 100 other things I enjoy doing with my dog?



> I have dogs and kids.
> In your world and in mine: My Kids get food and take it with them to OTHER rooms, Food drops, kid and dog reach for it, and your kid is looking for a new face.


In my world, kids are capable of and expected to follow simple rules like "eat at the table" and "don't reach for food you drop on the floor." I'm sorry if your kids aren't. 



> You really dont teach a dog to not be food aggressive. If you cant trust your dog around kids with food, that dog should go elsewhere, like doggie heaven or to a place it can be worked if a working dog.


I'll be sure to let my resource guarder who I didn't used to be able to take stuff away from, but now can, that it's not possible.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Then I guess I am calling Cesar an idiot. He should have known better.
> 
> I never said food aggression was okay. I said dealt with it in my dog and he no longer guards food from people. But if you stand over a food aggressive dog, poke and prod it, and ask why after it bites you, than you are an idiot...


The first bite happened within 5 seconds of him feeding the dog, from 17 seconds to lunge 1, at 22 seconds.

Few people are qualified nor should have to be, to read their dogs that they try to feed and decide to move or not move the food bowl, or add more food to the bowl and not get bitten.

You are excusing the inexcusable.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Because a tiny bit of effort to keep everyone safe is worth the 100 other things I enjoy doing with my dog?


You can say that about a loaded gun in the house with kids too. Id rather not have to worry about it





> In my world, kids are capable of and expected to follow simple rules like "eat at the table" and "don't reach for food you drop on the floor." I'm sorry if your kids aren't.


Sucks at your house then.
My kids are obedient, privately schooled, but STILL take food out and to watch TV against my directives on a frequent basis. Do I blame them if they dog rearranges their face?






> I'll be sure to let my resource guarder who I didn't used to be able to take stuff away from, but now can, that it's not possible.


Until that ONE time, when you didnt expect it.....
Resource guarder is another word for ..accident waiting to happen.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

lip licking is more than just a hunger signal.

http://dogs.about.com/od/dogtraining/a/lip-licking-in-dogs.htm

While lip licking is usually considered a submissive gesture meant to prevent aggression from escalating, it is still a sign that a dog is stressed and uncomfortable with a situation. This gesture of appeasement may be a dog's first attempt to stop aggressive behavior (i.e. to stop his owner from yelling at him), but this does not mean that the dog won't become defensive if the aggressive behavior continues. So if you see a dog licking his lips, back off. This will allow him some space to get more comfortable, and at the same time, it can save you from a potential bite from a dog who feels the need to defend himself.

The dog shows all signs of fear. Lip licking, rapid eye movement, her whole body language to me is screaming she wanted to run for the hills but felt trapped. I will say that Milan did the right thing and removed the dog from the situation. Clearly those owners were not right for that type of dog.

http://drsophiayin.com/images/uploads/BodyLanguagePortuguese.pdf

looking at this poster the lab is the poster child for a dog exploding with fear issues.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I am sure people got bitten by dogs in years past. I've heard my grandma and both my parents talk about getting bitten. I got bitten a couple times as a kid (though that was in the 90s). Nikki was a resource guarder though mostly all growls and not much bite. I remember bugging her till she bit me and left just a little scrape. I cried and my parents told me I shouldn't have messed with the dog if I didn't want to get bit. Can't argue with that.

Growling is communication/warning. I can't understand why you'd euthanize a dog that growled. Heck if that was the rules then most the dogs I've had would have had to be killed. Summer is the only dog I can think of that has never growled at a human in her life. And she's WAY tolerant and friendly to a fault. I wouldn't expect every dog to be as passive as she is.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Is there anywhere that shows the extent of the bite a few days later?

From how it appeared on the video it looks like that dog had some pretty good bite inhibition in terms of only one puncture. Or am I seeing things- the dog did thrash around and make contact a couple of times, right?

Everyone else is saying what I would've said, this is the only part I find interesting. From rewinding and watching it looks like the dog made contact a few times and yet there is only one big puncture?

Like 3:45-3:50 here and I get that its slowed down but the dog is "nomming" on his hand quite a bit. Couldn't she have done a LOT more damage than she did?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDb-wsQzAeI#t=226

(Just curiously comparing this bite to one I got from a fearful dog.)


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> lip licking is more than just a hunger signal.
> 
> http://dogs.about.com/od/dogtraining/a/lip-licking-in-dogs.htm
> 
> While lip licking is usually considered a submissive gesture meant to prevent aggression from escalating, it is still a sign that a dog is stressed and uncomfortable with a situation.


At Feeding time, who can tell the difference?
I cant believe some of the comedy posted here....


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Is there anywhere that shows the extent of the bite a few days later?
> 
> From how it appeared on the video it looks like that dog had some pretty good bite inhibition in terms of only one puncture. Or am I seeing things- the dog did thrash around and make contact a couple of times, right?
> (Just curiously comparing this bite to one I got from a fearful dog.)


Dog bites hurt like hell and are deep. There was pain in that bite, photos on the net of the dog who crunched down hard. Thrashing tears, not thrashing means bones breaking if hard enough.









They often dont look that bad, but they hurt like hell, are a huge possibility for infection and can cause one to go into shock, the real danger.

Ive taken dog and cat bites, cats are even worse for infection.


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## Gunther (Dec 15, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I am sure people got bitten by dogs in years past. I've heard my grandma and both my parents talk about getting bitten.


Yep, but not nearly the frequency as we have today. Dogs are much poorly bred.




> I got bitten a couple times as a kid (though that was in the 90s)..


90s is about half a century away from the 30s, 40s, 50s when dogs were bred better. 



> Nikki was a resource guarder though mostly all growls and not much bite. I remember bugging her till she bit me and left just a little scrape. I cried and my parents told me I shouldn't have messed with the dog if I didn't want to get bit. Can't argue with that.


You say resource guarder, I say accident waiting to happen.





> Growling is communication/warning. I can't understand why you'd euthanize a dog that growled. Heck if that was the rules then most the dogs I've had would have had to be killed. Summer is the only dog I can think of that has never growled at a human in her life. And she's WAY tolerant and friendly to a fault. I wouldn't expect every dog to be as passive as she is.


Because a growl is that dog telling ME it doesnt like MY behavior.
I dont ask a dog to like or respect me, I demand it, if it doesnt, or growls at me or mine, it goes bye bye.

Ive owned dozens of working and sporting dogs, and Ive never had one yet, and never will. If you think the breed founders wouldve tolerated that also, Ive got some cheap ocean front property to sell you.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Yes, it really is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





sassafras said:


> Because a tiny bit of effort to keep everyone safe is worth the 100 other things I enjoy doing with my dog?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Geez, Sassafras, stop being so sensible.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Dogs who resource guard are not mentally unstable. It's an extremely _natural_ behavior. They are dogs who just don't know any better. It is an easily managed problem and often times will not develop if you work with a puppy from a young age. Dogs and puppies who are resource guarders are relatively easily trained and managed. This link has excellent training advice: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3339 Because, real talk, you don't have to jab your dog in the neck or punish him for guarding. Rather, you teach him that giving highly regarded items is good. 

If there are children in the household and the dog is that much of a danger... Then I suppose the dog would have to be rehomed. In MOST resource guarding cases, it is not so extreme that you would fear for your child's face. 

Growling is a warning. If a dog growls at you, you've gone too far. It's time to take a step back in your training and work harder on foundation if you make a dog uncomfortable enough to growl. If Cesar can't recognize growling, lip licking, and wide eyes as nervous, fearful dog, then he ain't much of a dog trainer. Cesar should have taken a step back. Cesar shouldnt have pushed Holly further. Cesar should have tried a different training method. Just facts right there.

If a dog has never growled at you, I fancy you've never worked with a fearful dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Sometimes people do things that imo dogs shouldn't have to tolerate. Me being human and them being a dog doesn't mean I get a free pass and the dog is never allowed to show his displeasure. It also means that I'm the smarter of the two and it's my job to step back and look to see why the growl happened. 

I am smarter than thinking a growl equals automatic death to the doggy. There are many reasons a dog might growl at a human and not all of those are the fault of the dog's. 

I do think it's strange if you've worked with dogs for very long that you've never been growled at or snapped at, let alone bitten. Maybe you are more sensible of a handler? I have no idea. I know I've had quite a few dogs that have growled during their lifetimes and none of those dogs were dangerous or landed a serious bite. 

I don't think there's any proof at all that dog breeding was better in the 50s.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Gunther said:


> Justifying dog biting food aggression logic at the expense of a dollar, is why US breeders put out defective dogs and why my wife in the ER wing sees this kind of nonsense every day with kids bitten.


Apparently US human breeders are putting out defective humans too. A child is like 25 times more likely to be killed by his parents than a dog, and about twice as likely to need medical care from child abuse than a dog bite. I'm sure your wife sees that nonsense too. So if you ever yell at your kids, welp, better shoot yourself---you're a much worse danger to your children than a growling dog.

I do not think dogs bit less often in times past, LOL. I know plenty of older people who got bitten as children, and most of them got in trouble for annoying the dog . I think back then people actually understood that dogs might defend themselves.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I don't think there's any proof at all that dog breeding was better in the 50s.


I concur. I'd like to think that modern health testing has done wonders for dog breeding. But that's just me.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Gunther said:


> You can say that about a loaded gun in the house with kids too. Id rather not have to worry about it.


I can't think of 100 things I enjoy doing with a gun, can you? Nor do I have an emotional connection to a gun. 





> Sucks at your house then.
> My kids are obedient, privately schooled, but STILL take food out and to watch TV against my directives on a frequent basis. Do I blame them if they dog rearranges their face?


Your rule-breaking kids are obedient, eh? I guess they're lucky you can't euthanize THEM for doing things you don't like, huh?





> Until that ONE time, when you didnt expect it.....
> Resource guarder is another word for ..accident waiting to happen.


Well since I understand and pay attention to canine body language, and I don't provoke dogs into escalating when they are uncomfortable, I'll "see it coming" in time to avoid it.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Gunther said:


> Dog bites hurt like hell and are deep. There was pain in that bite, photos on the net of the dog who crunched down hard. Thrashing tears, not thrashing means bones breaking if hard enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know? haha mine was a 90lb akita. I just was pointing out something that I thought was interesting.

Also: people who work with dogs and cannot clearly see that situation escalating are... not smart. That dog HELD UP A FLASHING NEON SIGN and milan was just like "mrrgh alpha stuff!" and kept riiiiiiight on goin. That bite was his fault and he should have seen it coming (and no idea how he didn't.)


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Gunther said:


> At Feeding time, who can tell the difference?
> I cant believe some of the comedy posted here....


a good animal trainer or behaviorist can and do know the difference between an anxiety lick or a impulse lick from the smell of food. Also, it is the rest of the dog's body language.


from Cesar himself
This can make lots of dogs nervous and lead to problems getting through security, and it can even cause missed flights. If you’ve ever flown with your dog, you might have noticed this before. Some of the signs of canine nervousness include getting wide-eyed, licking lips, and clamping the jaw. 

Read more: http://www.cesarsway.com/dog-training/dog-socialization/Fixing-Fidos-Fear-of-Flying#ixzz2nay1mfyT


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

If you can't tell the difference between a hungry dog and a scared dog about to bite, well, I'm not sure someone like that has any business being around dogs at all.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Gunther said:


> Not so much with kids and guests though...a ticking time bomb if you ask me. Or having your wife clean and accidentally trip and land on/near the dogs bowl at cleaning.


i don't have guests and if i did i wouldn't feed her while they were there. i don't have kids and i never plan to, but if i did i would feed the dogs in a separate room and teach them not to touch the dog. if i had a wife i would feed her in a separate room so she wouldn't trip and land on the dog.

edit: LOL i just realized how ridiculous the wife part sounds... not changing it tho  it's too funny to touch


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

That made me laugh!


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Kayota said:


> if i had a wife i would feed her in a separate room so she wouldn't trip and land on the dog.
> 
> edit: LOL i just realized how ridiculous the wife part sounds... not changing it tho  it's too funny to touch


You could always feed your wife in her crate if its a problem


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

aiw said:


> If you can't tell the difference between a hungry dog and a scared dog about to bite, well, I'm not sure someone like that has any business being around dogs at all.


this. Whale eyes, weird ears, lip licking- the dog is telling him (and anyone who has had a five minute introductory course on dog body language) VERY clearly that she is uncomfortable and over threshhold.

heck, I'm only 21 and have been working with dogs for ten years. I don't have close to the lifetime of experience some posters here have and even that was pretty durn obvious. milan got bit because his ego took over and he knew he was pushing her over threshhold.

is the dog suitable for a home with kids? probably not the best place for it to be, but it did need typical RG training, not that intimidation crap milan pushed on her.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

^I've barely worked with dogs at all other than my own and I could see it :\


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sclevenger said:


> Well ya, im sure that could have happened, but to maul that terribly, there was no warning, growl, nothing...thats what red flags it to me that the dog isn't being properly managed it doesn't seem. We don't know the whole story and I try to keep that in mind, but thats pretty serious. I blew in my moms pit face once, she growled, I did it again, she nipped...nipped. It was her second warning, at that point my mom caught me and I got in some serious crap. lol.
> 
> I know not all dogs are the same, some have higher tolerance than others, some warn differently, yada yada, but a dog that just lunges and mauls with no warning, is not a dog that needs to be off leash in a park where there are kids.


I have had two dogs who wouldn't hesitate to land at least a skin breaking bite if a kid startled them from behind or grabbed at their tail or hurt them in some way. One has since passed away the other is Josefina and I really have to watch her because of her upbringing (orphan) she is bad about going straight to biting and not giving a warning growl. 

Message to parents ... WATCH YOUR KIDS I can only do so much YOU HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK!!!! *beats head against wall in frustration* I miss the days where kids were chastised with "it was your fault" speeches when they were bitten by animals. :/


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have had two dogs who wouldn't hesitate to land at least a skin breaking bite if a kid startled them from behind or grabbed at their tail or hurt them in some way. One has since passed away the other is Josefina and I really have to watch her because of her upbringing (orphan) she is bad about going straight to biting and not giving a warning growl.
> 
> Message to parents ... WATCH YOUR KIDS I can only do so much YOU HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK!!!! *beats head against wall in frustration* I miss the days where kids were chastised with "it was your fault" speeches when they were bitten by animals. :/


I completely agree with what your saying, the owner wasn't doing her part though. Her dog was off leash in a public park. Also I don't really feel she wasn't supervising her child, he was standing right beside her, mom turned her head for a second. Granted I don't let my daughter near strange dogs without having some distance between the two and ready to intervene, but honestly this is because I'm afraid of dogs and know how fast they move. 

My beagle growing up was a nipper without warning. Sometimes he curled his lip when we pestered but not often, so I understand that too. But this was way more than a warning nip.


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## Violet Dragon (Aug 20, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Message to parents ... WATCH YOUR KIDS I can only do so much YOU HAVE TO PICK UP THE SLACK!!!! *beats head against wall in frustration* I miss the days where kids were chastised with "it was your fault" speeches when they were bitten by animals. :/


Can't that work with a dog owner as well? Like WATCH YOUR DOG! If you see a kid walking up to your dog YOU inform the kid how to treat your dog or tell them 'sorry he doesn't like being touched'. This story sounds like the kid and parent walked, WALKED, up to the dog. What the hell was the _owner _doing at that moment.

edit: sclevenger posted what I was thinking.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

^That doesn't always work unfortunately, Roxie has growled and snapped at kids MULTIPLE times so i will TELL people that and their children will come up and harass my dog anyway. It doesn't matter how clear I am or how many times I say it. BUT that's when I get up and walk away.


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## Violet Dragon (Aug 20, 2013)

Kids and dogs are the same like that. A parent can tell their kid how to behave, but that doesn't always mean they will be perfect when the parent turns away for a second. Just always watch your dog and/ or kid.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

When I was walking my 3 leashed dogs one time, in a neighborhood, I saw a little 3 yr old run across the street ahead of me. The dad was still in his driveway. I stopped about 50 feet away and waited, as my dogs aren't used to kids and would probably bite if one ran at them. So the idiot dad stands there, and yells to the kid, "Come here! Look at the doggies!" encouraging the kid to run BACK across the street to the strange dogs. I yelled that my dogs aren't friendly, and turned around and went the other way. IDIOT parent!


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## Violet Dragon (Aug 20, 2013)

Sad truth. Some people expect dogs seen in public to be perfect, people loving chummilys. They literally don't know any better, really, some people don't know a lot about dogs and don't care too. Not interesting to them.
It's one of those things every dog owner has to learn; people are unpredictable. That's why it's so important to keep an eye on your dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Oh come on.... That dog threw every signal for him to 'go away' possible. If Cesar had backed off there would be no bite. The dog growled, lick lipped, ears back, turned away... Pretty much flashing neon lights saying 'I don't like this. I'm going to bite if you keep on!'
> 
> Intelligent people would back off when the dog starts warning then work with the dog under the threshold and work on the resource guarding issue.
> 
> Why was he posturing over the dog, poking it in the side, etc if the attack was completely unprovoked?


You know what's weird ... Josefina got on the bed with me while I was watching that episode and while watching that shot the camera had of CM's POV, and upon seeing it, Josefina even became nervous and actually jumped off the bed onto her bed so she didn't have to look at the tv. CM's body language was so threatening that it "threatened " my dog through the tv. 

That's saying something.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Violet Dragon said:


> Sad truth. Some people expect dogs seen in public to be perfect, people loving chummilys. They literally don't know any better, really, some people don't know a lot about dogs and don't care too. Not interesting to them.
> It's one of those things every dog owner has to learn; people are unpredictable. That's why it's so important to keep an eye on your dog.


This is how I feel. Of course people are idiots and do what they please. I can't control them, but I do however have the responsibility to control my dog to the best of my ability ESPECIALLY when I BRING him into the PUBLIC! Its my duty, not every single parents and child's. 

Im not saying that parents shouldn't be responsible for their children, but every dog bite shouldn't be labeled as the parents fault either. This particular dog owner, though she didn't exactly encourage the meeting of child to dog, she never said my dog isn't friendly....and even if she had her dern dog wasn't on a stupid leash...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ha ha I ironically have never done any official work with my dogs and FA (food aggression) and *gasp* I have never had a FA dog ... Ever! Because I feed them in their crates and don't mess with them! The. When I pick up their bowls, I give them a biscut in return! I have never elicited a reaction like the one CM did in the lab holly. 

If they would have fed the dog in a room behind a closed door or in a crate they would have never had to worry about the dog and the kid they were having interacting during feeding times. Hell even horses can have food aggression and what is our solution? To LEAVE THEM THE **** ALONE and let them enjoy their dinner in peace! 

I always see posts from owners griping about how their dog won't leave them or their guests or their kids alone while they eat ... If we expect dogs to leave us alone then why don't we extend dogs the same curtesy???

Respect begats respect ... And all species understand it.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

I have horses and dogs and I have always been able to take food from either animal. What if they get something toxic or dangerous or I plain don't want them to have it? 

I've also never had a food aggressive animal, why? Bc I have clear, consistent boundaries.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

gsdhunter said:


> I have horses and dogs and I have always been able to take food from either animal. What if they get something toxic or dangerous or I plain don't want them to have it?
> 
> I've also never had a food aggressive animal, why? Bc I have clear, consistent boundaries.


Some dogs come with resource guarding issues. And some are just plain ole apt to develop it. Boundaries definitely help along with continual training on "drop it", "take it", and "leave it". 

I haven't worked with a food guarders but I did do a little work with a crate guarder before my uncle decided she wasn't working for him (for other reasons). "Setting boundaries" didn't have much to do with it. She was afraid of people invading her space. I basically just treated and rewarded her for being quiet and allowing me near the crate. I never forced her out or in. Eventually she moved freely in the crate without giving a huff about people near the crate. Resource guarding is almost an instinct that needs to be worked with. It's very natural for dogs to guard high value items.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Oh I work on "trading up" and all that and taking things from them but when I give something to an animal in a feed bucks or bowl that I know and they know is theirs from me, there is no reason to use as them over it.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

gsdhunter said:


> I have horses and dogs and I have always been able to take food from either animal. What if they get something toxic or dangerous or I plain don't want them to have it?
> 
> I've also never had a food aggressive animal, why? Bc I have clear, consistent boundaries.


Rabblefox already answered, but food aggression/resource guarding doesn't happen just because of a lack of clear, consistent boundaries. RGing is natural and not uncommon, especially between dogs. I live with two former RGers and have worked with others that did not lack boundaries.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

gsdhunter said:


> I have horses and dogs and I have always been able to take food from either animal. What if they get something toxic or dangerous or I plain don't want them to have it?
> 
> I've also never had a food aggressive animal, why? Bc I have clear, consistent boundaries.


How many dogs have you owned, I'm curious? How many have you trained or worked with outside of your own dogs? 

I have a dog that came from a shelter, and does RG a little bit towards people for very high value items like his marrow bones. Never bit anyone, but I wouldn't put it past him if he were pushed. He gets stiff, whale eyes, sometimes a little grumbled if I need to take something NOW. We work on trading games a lot, but what helps this and if he were to get something else he shouldn't have? Clear, consistent training and understanding of LEAVE IT, OUT (drop it), and COME. I don't even go near him with his bones 9 times out of 10, I ask him to leave it and come to me, I put him in a sit stay and I go take the bone. Usually giving it back to him in his crate where he is safe to devour it. It's a natural reaction, and I obviously have clear, consistent rules regarding everything, so I do not think it stems from lack of expectations. There are SO many things that can influence the desire to RG in dogs, from other dogs, people messing too much, parasites or large litters as puppies, starvation due to being a stray, all along with INSTINCT to keep what is theirs. My GSD doesn't resource guard anything from people or dogs, my border collie does very minorly from other dogs, and my pit bull does very minorly from people - can't say anything is different between how I raised or train them or expect them to behave. I just reduce the chances of them needing to guard anything and keep them fresh on come, out, and drop it. And I haven't had any bites, fights, or issues yet.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea there's at least some amount of luck and genetics involved in whether a dog has a tendency to resource guard. Fortunately it's something that's relatively simple to address with a combination of management and behavior modification/training.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah some animals are just more guardy over certain items, sometimes it's food, or a toy, or a treat or a chewy ... Etc. my dogs know that they will be left in peace to eat their food so they don't feel like they have to guard it, and once they are done they get a yummy treat as I take the bowl up so to them it's a win win 

With other things I try to teach my dogs to brings things they pick up TO me (regardless of what it is ... Even if it's gross lol) for a trade, so they don't think they have to wolf something down or keep something from me. It's a little unorthodox but it works for us


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I always made it point to squat with the child when my child went to pet a strange dog. I did not loom over the situation, I wanted to be at the same level so I could read the signals being sent both ways. My hand was holding the child's hand to pet the dog. My hand would take the bite before my child did. 

I do not have any dogs that do any RGing or food aggression at this time. I am glad for this seeing all the dogs sleep with each other and sometimes even eat together. I even give them treats without a problem. Lucky for me. If I did have a RG or food aggressor I would handle it different than poking and prodding a dog to get a reaction. 


My horses do not have this problem either. My one mini horse does have a habit of stealing things. He gives them up pretty easily though. The farrier thought it was cute how he kept picking her pocket for the hoof pick and taking off with it.


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## gsdhunter (Nov 10, 2013)

DJEtzel said:


> How many dogs have you owned, I'm curious? How many have you trained or worked with outside of your own dogs?
> 
> I have a dog that came from a shelter, and does RG a little bit towards people for very high value items like his marrow bones. Never bit anyone, but I wouldn't put it past him if he were pushed. He gets stiff, whale eyes, sometimes a little grumbled if I need to take something NOW. We work on trading games a lot, but what helps this and if he were to get something else he shouldn't have? Clear, consistent training and understanding of LEAVE IT, OUT (drop it), and COME. I don't even go near him with his bones 9 times out of 10, I ask him to leave it and come to me, I put him in a sit stay and I go take the bone. Usually giving it back to him in his crate where he is safe to devour it. It's a natural reaction, and I obviously have clear, consistent rules regarding everything, so I do not think it stems from lack of expectations. There are SO many things that can influence the desire to RG in dogs, from other dogs, people messing too much, parasites or large litters as puppies, starvation due to being a stray, all along with INSTINCT to keep what is theirs. My GSD doesn't resource guard anything from people or dogs, my border collie does very minorly from other dogs, and my pit bull does very minorly from people - can't say anything is different between how I raised or train them or expect them to behave. I just reduce the chances of them needing to guard anything and keep them fresh on come, out, and drop it. And I haven't had any bites, fights, or issues yet.


Hmm I have three dogs and 5 horses that I've owned

Trained I have no idea how many dogs, over 100? I also used to run a dog daycare and in that situation its very important to be able to take stuff from them. I have worked with resource guarders and have never been bit by one.

I'm all for trading treats etc, along with being firm. But ignoring the problem and never working through the issue is not ok in my book.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

gsdhunter said:


> Hmm I have three dogs and 5 horses that I've owned
> 
> Trained I have no idea how many dogs, over 100? I also used to run a dog daycare and in that situation its very important to be able to take stuff from them. I have worked with resource guarders and have never been bit by one.
> 
> I'm all for trading treats etc, along with being firm. But ignoring the problem and never working through the issue is not ok in my book.


Who said to do that?


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