# Puppy tantrums



## crlast86 (Jul 15, 2014)

I have an 8-month old yellow lab/something mix who has always had a bit of a biting problem. We've managed to get most of it under control, but he still has little puppy tantrums. If we take away something he wanted, or try to use the pinch collar (without a leash, so we're grabbing the collar directly) when he's acting up, he bites. Hands, arms, feet (the worst), hair, anything he can reach. At that point using the pinch collar is utterly useless because he just twists around to bite, and he's so worked up that he pretty much doesn't react to the shock collar unless it's set so high that even a short shock makes him yelp, and I really don't like having it up that high because I don't want to hurt him! 

Any suggestions?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Stop hurting your dog. Of course he's biting, you'd bite, too, if someone were shocking and pinching your neck!

Please, please, please read up on positive, reward-based training. Check out dogstardaily.com, kikopup on youtube and zak george on youtube/facebook. Check out the stickies in the training section here. I, and many people here, have trained dogs without ever touching them at all. These dogs are well behaved and eager for more training. Just give it a try.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> Stop hurting your dog. Of course he's biting, you'd bite, too, if someone were shocking and pinching your neck!
> 
> Please, please, please read up on positive, reward-based training. Check out dogstardaily.com, kikopup on youtube and zak george on youtube/facebook. Check out the stickies in the training section here. I, and many people here, have trained dogs without ever touching them at all. These dogs are well behaved and eager for more training. Just give it a try.


Second time in as many days I've quoted Amaryllis.  If you treat your dog with aggressive training techniques, they will respond in kind. 

Figure out what you want your to do (instead of what not to do) and make him want to do it (by using positive reinforcement). Prevent him from making mistakes by managing his environment and set up training sessions so that he can succeed. If you do this, I'm quite sure you'll see a turn around in his demeanor relatively quickly.

I'd also recommend finding a good positive reinforcement-based training class to take. A good trainer is worth their weight in gold.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Wow. You use a prong AND a shock collar, on an 8 month old puppy? Geez man.

Labs are mouthy. That's the way they are. You do not counter it by pinching and shocking. Take the torture devices off and start over.

At this point, if you're jerking and shocking your dog enough for him to yelp, he is probably associating handling with pain.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

To elaborate on cookieface's post, when we moved to an apartment, my dog, Kabota, viewed elevators as awesome places where the people he wanted attention from couldn't escape. He wasn't being bad, per se, but not everyone wants to pay attention to my dog during every elevator ride. So I decided to teach him to sit facing me, looking at my face when on elevators. I already had sit and look at me trained, so I simply stuffed my pockets with great treats and started asking for sit and look at me during every elevator ride, rewarding the entire ride, treat after treat after treat. It didn't take long for him to figure out that elevator=sit and look at me and for him to do it automatically. He'll even do it with another dog in the elevator, and he loves other dogs.

All of this was done purely with treats. I walk him using a harness and his collar is only for ID in case we get separated. Keep in mind, Kabota is not easily trained. He's not very bright and he's not at all biddable. A lab like yours would be a dream in comparison, even during the teenager months.


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## crlast86 (Jul 15, 2014)

Not every dog response to only positive training. He does for a few things (basic sit, down, stay, regular commands like that), but for corrective behavior (namely the biting), we've had to take more extreme measures. Being mouthy is one thing, but when the dog is breaking skin, it's a big problem. It's one thing if he does it with us, but it's an entirely different story if he was to do it to oh, say, the neighbor's kids. That could result in a dear member of the family being forcibly euthanized. Would you rather have that happen to an 8 month old puppy? Both a prong collar and a shock collar are completely safe _if used correctly_. However, the level of shock it takes to get him to react when he's throwing a tantrum elicits a yelp tells me that that level of shock is _not safe_. Which is why I have turned to what I hoped to be a helpful community of fellow dog parents. 

It's a shame to see that someone seriously looking for help is immediately attacked like this. My fiancee and I work closely with a dog trainer with both the prong and shock collar, and are very careful not to actually hurt him, only to use it for correction, and _never, ever, ever_ use punishment out of anger. Our pets are family, and we treat them like such. If I had a child that was biting other children, they would get physical punishment, too. Certain behaviors cannot be tolerated. I'm glad I know now that this is not a helpful community. I'll get my advice elsewhere where people actually want to help, thanks!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

If you're using positive punishment correctly, it's unpleasant for the dog or horse or rat or person. That's how it works. I'm sorry that you feel it's necessary to use pain and force to train your puppy the same things many people have been able to successfully using positive reinforcement and negative punishment.

If you're so concerned about your puppy biting someone, perhaps you'd be interested in this: If You're Aggressive, Your Dog Will Be Too, Says Veterinary Study


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

If a dog trainer advocated the use of a prong or shock collar on a puppy for correction, I would immediately find someone else to work with. It's just so unnecessary and can contribute to the problem getting worse, which you've seen.

A lot of this is his age and breed combined. Adolescent labs are mouthy, unruly buttheads, and that's just the way it goes. If you're concerned about the neighbourhood kids, I would just prevent him from interacting with them until he matures and settles down a bit. IMO, adolescent dogs (and puppies) and kids just don't tend to mix well.

Until then, I would follow the advice you've been given, and remove yourself and stop interaction when he gets overstimulated like you're seeing (and I know, it's really easy for an 8 month old to get overstimulated). You could use a crate for a time out to let him decompress if you want. Not as a punishment, but to allow him to have some time alone to calm down. Combined with that, he needs to get his energy out somehow, so make sure he's getting lots of exercise to burn off that excess. It'll take time and consistency, but it will work.

I agree that you should stop the correction collars immediately, as they could very likely be making him hand-shy (meaning he associates being handled with pain/correction/bad things) and you REALLY don't want that with kids around.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

crlast86 said:


> . However, the level of shock it takes to get him to react when he's throwing a tantrum elicits a yelp tells me that that level of shock is _not safe_. Which is why I have turned to what I hoped to be a helpful community of fellow dog parents.
> 
> It's a shame to see that someone seriously looking for help is immediately attacked like this. My fiancee and I work closely with a dog trainer with both the prong and shock collar, and are very careful not to actually hurt him, only to use it for correction, and _never, ever, ever_ use punishment out of anger. Our pets are family, and we treat them like such. If I had a child that was biting other children, they would get physical punishment, too. Certain behaviors cannot be tolerated. I'm glad I know now that this is not a helpful community. I'll get my advice elsewhere where people actually want to help, thanks!


We had a giant schnauzer much like your pup - we also took her to a trainer, and while he was shutzhund based and believed in corrections he also believed in fairness-

(our dog also was on prong, and had some shock collar-- but NOT for biting! although she was at least as mouthy as your boy-- most of my jackets are ripped from her excited nips and she bit through most of her leashes that first year or so. )-
I think if your dog is not responding except to a high level of shock during his "tantrums" I think what is more useful -- for you-- and your dog-- is to work really hard on not getting to that level of excitement- I know at 8 months that can be difficult (ours was )- but know that this is phase that will pass (as in any toddler, no one shocks their screaming toddler right?) and you want a relationship with your dog that has a lasting positive connotations...
We did what we did because like you- were worried about the ramifications of having such a dog in a busy populated area full of children... 
thankfully at age 4 she has settled down and we dont need those things anymore..

I would say that when their in that wild phase, lots and lots (like 2-3 hours a day) of excercise really helps.

I am sorry you felt attacked.
Prong and shock collars are contreversial (and, not knowing the average OP on this forum, I would hesitate to reccomend them).
But, I hope you stick around and at least read some of the threads, I know back with my schnauzer I read alot and learned alot and this Forum is really useful, even if you do not agree with what is being said, its always good to hear another perspective.
Hang in there.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

BernerMax said:


> believed in corrections he also believed in fairness-


This is where I'm at....FAIRNESS. If you have to fry your dog to make it yelp before it pays attention to your attempts to stop mouthing you have gone absolutely the wrong direction. 8 months IMO is early to use an e collar to begin with, and to use it for puppy mouthing and nipping is a REALLY bad way to go. For the record, I do believe in corrections to some degree, I use both e collar and prong collars as necessary.....but you HAVE to build basic obedience, self control and trust first and not just fry your dog for infractions (unless of course it is truly life or death). To do these things to your dog, especially without a basis you are being severely unfair....and chances are if you had a basis first, you wouldn't need to use it for mouthing and nipping. 



HollowHeaven said:


> At this point, if you're jerking and shocking your dog enough for him to yelp, he is probably associating handling with pain.


Yep, 100% agree. 

I'm guessing you haven't gone to a trainer at this point....and if you have, and they recommended the route you are currently on, go to a different one, one that has a very firm basis in positive training.....though considering the potential damage already done, it would be a good idea to go to someone who is familiar with the prong and e collar so they may have a more precise idea of how to deal with some of the specific fallout it seems you are experiencing. 

Also, I really do not think that dogs and puppies have tantrums, not the way human children do. You mention these things happen when you try to take something away. This may be a guarding issue starting....chances are you are taking things away and not giving anything in return, and not making taking something away (or even following commands) a positive thing....and to remove things forcibly can easily exacerbate, if not create a guarding problem. 

You have more than a nipping and biting problem....those are only the symptoms, and by treating those symptoms with force you could easily be creating a time bomb....a dog that is used to rough and painful handling, who has things taken away arbitrarily (or it may seem arbitrary to the dog). You already have to fry your dog to take things, what about when your dog is habituated to that level of pain....then what? PLEASE, put away your punishment tools (at this point, they are not being used for training from what I can see) and go directly to a positive based trainer, or even a behaviorist. If you absolutely insist on keeping the collars, please learn to use them sparingly and appropriately from a professional.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm not saying don't punish a Lab puppy .... they are the spawn of the devil  But, I am saying don't use the typical harsh methods, like collars, etc. b/c Labs were bred for cold water and thorns, and they can think that physical punishment is fun .... Instead, of 'using a baseball bat,' it's better to strategically withdraw attention! .... Labs crave attention and play, and ignoring them is better than a baseball bat or a shock collar. 

More than 30 years ago, international behavior expert, Dr. Ian Dunbar came up with a method for training Bite Inhibition. I wrote about it here:
http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/252738-problems-biting-during-play.html#post2690562

It is a very different way of training and will take you a week or so to get the hang of it. The method works well and can be used to communicate with other behaviors ... but don't skip steps or improvise, b/c it's important for the dog to understand the cause and effect: Bite --> Ouch! AND Withdraw Attention. Once the dog sees the pattern consistently, he'll do anything to avoid that Ouch! (or Yelp!).

Not theoretical on my part. Thirty years ago, I popped pups on the rear or the nose to stop nipping. Thirteen years ago, I adopted my current dog, and popping him didn't work, and someone taught me the Yelp method, resulting in Tasmanian Devil Dog transforming into a VERY intelligent, sweet marshmallow mouth...


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Positive training does work with every dog (unless we're talking about a dog with outright, insane human aggression, which is extremely rare), _if you know how to use it_. Dogs are domesticated animals bred for tens of thousands of years to work with humans. Positive training works on tigers, bears and killer whales, it definitely works on your domesticated animal. I have used positive training to deal with extreme dog aggression (that dog went through a glass window in order to kill an 8 week old puppy) and extreme prey drive. If you're just waving a treat in the dog's general direction, well, that's not positive training. Like anything else, positive training demands a certain amount of knowledge and skill, however, it's a knowledge and skill anyone can learn. Not anyone can master it (I don't claim to have), but anyone can learn enough to make their dog a pleasant pet.

The thing is, clearly punishment isn't working, or you wouldn't be here. If punishment were working, shocking your dog until he yelps in pain would be enough. I highly suggest Ian Dunbar, kikopup (Emily Larlham) and Zak George for research. Give it a try! It won't hurt anything.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

crlast86 said:


> Which is why I have turned to what I hoped to be a helpful community of fellow dog parents.


That's what we are. You've come to the right place.



> My fiancee and I work closely with a dog trainer with both the prong and shock collar, and are very careful not to actually hurt him, only to use it for correction, and _never, ever, ever_ use punishment out of anger.


 For starters, punishment isn't very effective for most people's training needs. As you've probably already noticed, yourself. Also, assuming you're paying this person to help you train ... anyone who suggests the use of a either a prong or a shock collar or both on an 8 month Lab who's biting, doesn't know JACK about dog training. Look for a better qualified trainer to help you through, in person - that's where the smart money goes. But take to heart the advice given here too. 



> Our pets are family, and we treat them like such.


 That's a good premise to go by, and I'm also willing to bet you'd never advocate putting a shock or prong on a family member. 



> If I had a child that was biting other children, they would get physical punishment, too.


 You can't equate a child biting someone with a dog biting someone. It's a natural behavior with dogs; with kids not so much. Comparing the two is like .. comparing apples to hand grenades. 

Generally speaking, all dogs respond well to strictly positive methods. But LABS ??? ound: do yourself and your dog a big favour and learn how to use R+ to your advantage.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

If the dog is biting for something it wants, this usually means the dog hasn't been shown how to earn what it wants. Don't rely on the dog to figure it out, teach him how to do it. This can easily be done with impulse exercises and hand feeding and/or controlled tug games if he's a tugger, teaching 'drop' and/or 'leave it' along the way. There are many approaches, but I suspect you aren't being proactive enough in teaching the dog good behaviors and relying too heavily on punishing bad behaviors.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

crlast86 said:


> Not every dog response to only positive training. He does for a few things (basic sit, down, stay, regular commands like that), but for corrective behavior (namely the biting), we've had to take more extreme measures. Being mouthy is one thing, but when the dog is breaking skin, it's a big problem. It's one thing if he does it with us, but it's an entirely different story if he was to do it to oh, say, the neighbor's kids. That could result in a dear member of the family being forcibly euthanized. Would you rather have that happen to an 8 month old puppy? Both a prong collar and a shock collar are completely safe _if used correctly_. However, the level of shock it takes to get him to react when he's throwing a tantrum elicits a yelp tells me that that level of shock is _not safe_. Which is why I have turned to what I hoped to be a helpful community of fellow dog parents.
> 
> It's a shame to see that someone seriously looking for help is immediately attacked like this. My fiancee and I work closely with a dog trainer with both the prong and shock collar, and are very careful not to actually hurt him, only to use it for correction, and _never, ever, ever_ use punishment out of anger. Our pets are family, and we treat them like such. If I had a child that was biting other children, they would get physical punishment, too. Certain behaviors cannot be tolerated. I'm glad I know now that this is not a helpful community. I'll get my advice elsewhere where people actually want to help, thanks!


You are actually hurting him. If you weren't, he wouldn't be yelping. 
Would you honestly put a shock collar or a prong on your child? I doubt it. And I don't think you should be comparing it to that. 
A child can understand why they're getting punished, a dog cannot.

There are PLENTY of ways to get a puppy to stop mouthing without hurting them. I don't know how much research you did or how much experience you have with labs, but you are obviously not prepared for this breed trait. 

I'm sorry you are willing to let your pride take you somewhere where people will praise you for hurting your puppy.
But if you actually do care for your dog like a family member, you will take some of the other advice given here to stop the mouthing and excitement.


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## doglover24 (Jul 17, 2014)

Prong collars and shock collars are not for puppies. Period. No matter what way you put it, its unnecessary. 

For bite training, when the dog bites you just get in close and say no in a stern voice. If the puppy goes to bite again, stand up and say no in a stern voice and then walk away. If they chase after you shuve a toy in their mouth then ignore them. Yeah, for the first month or two with my puppy i had to suck up the pain and just continue doing what inwas doing. He is now 7 1/2 months and he no longer bites, he does like to put my hand in his mouth, which doesnt hurt but i still discourage it with a no. 

It will take work, and yes youll have to suck it up for a while but shock collars and prong collars are horrible excuses for bite training as theyre actually used more so for leash and off leash training (though i still do not encourage them AT ALL) 

And also, please find another trainer. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

i think you need a trainer.


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