# New Dobies.



## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

I've recently aquired 2 , 4month old Doberman pups.
now, I've been to other forums in the past, and before everyone starts jumping on me for the situation at hand, let me first explain how i got here...

my mother and i were both interested in buying a dog (i more so than her). we dont live together, but only a few blocks apart on the same street.
she was aprehensive to get a puppy, but we talked about it. we both have full time jobs, but very different schedules. i thought this was good because we could help each other out to keep a good schedule for the puppies.
we bought the dogs(i bought the dogs under the agreement that she would pay me back for hers). i took them to the vet, got them up to date on shots, yada yada...
the plan was for both of them to be at her house for the first 6-8 weeks for housebreaking, this way we could crate them together in a crate we had borrowed from a neighbor and not have to buy another. this would also give me some time to 'puppy-proof' my place, as i have a few other pets and wouldnt want the dog making a mess out of various foods, cleaning supplies, etc.)

well, about 2 weeks goes by, and theyre doing well. then my mother says she doesnt want the dog, she has my sister and my 2 year old neice back living with her, suddenly its a problem and i have to take them both, she doesnt want the dog anymore at all, ever.
I love them both anyway, i didnt have a problem with having two dogs. she hadnt done much for them anyhow except for bring them outside a few times at their scheduled times.
however. I work a 50 hour week. i have 2 cats, 2 parrots, 7 snakes, an alligator and a scorpion at home as well.
i decided against crating at my house because now i dont have help, and theyd only be out for the half hour lunch break i get in the middle of the day? thats not fair and i wont do that to them. i have one spare bedroom in my apartment that was only used for storing some of my mothers things at the time, so i set them up in there with toys and a bed, etc. this way they cant terrorize the other animals or destroy anything, but they have plenty of room to wrestle and tire each other out when im not at home.
brought them home, introduced them to the cats... it could have gone better, but it could have been alot worse too. they didnt even acknowledge the birds until very recently. and the reptiles are all in another room (for temperature regulation needs) so theres no issue of jumping on cages or anything like that.

i know theyre very smart dogs, they use the pad i put down for them when im not home, and i always reward them when they 'go' outside.
...so this is the issue(s) im having. i readily welcome any *constructive criticism*. please do not reply to this only to tell me all the things im doing wrong, but offer no advice on the correct thing(s) to do.
the following is my average daily schedule (it may vary just a tiny bit depending on the day)

5:30am: wake up(not by choice, this is when the dogs wake me up)
immediately go outside to pee.
if they 'go'. come back inside and play for a little while, while i make myself breakfast, feed the birds and cats.

7:00am: feed the dogs. and get my feeders ready for the reptiles. immediately afterward, head downstairs for a walk (30-45minutes) normally at this time is when they both poo. i always bring treats with me and reward them when they 'go' outside.
head back upstairs for a drink and a little playtime.

9:00ish:naptime. they curl up on my bed. at this time i let the birds out of their cages to play and head toward the reptiles(feeders should be thawed and ready by this time, rarely takes a little longer). do what i have to do for reptiles.

11:00ish: wake up, the birds go back inside their cages and we head to the park for an hour or so. walk around, meet all the people/dogs, chase the geese, whatever. they often have to 'go' again around this time. again, they get treats and praise. if i can find a quiet spot with not much distractions, we do a few short training sessions with each of them (sit, lay down, etc.).

Back home by 12:30: gotta get ready for work. feed the dogs lunch inside their room and place a pad on the floor. (put the cats inside a crate in their room to get them accustomed to being with the dogs, but for now in a way that nobody can get hurt.) distract the pups with a kong full of peanut butter and head to work.
(i work from 1:00pm-9:00pm most days)

4:30: Break. come home to take the dogs outside. they both 'go' every time.
come back upstairs and play while i make myself a sandwich or whatever then back in the room for the dogs, and back to work for me.

Around 9:00pm: arrive home from work, again immediately take the dogs out to pee.
9:30pm:feed the dogs, then out for another walk around the neighborhood. usually for a half hour or so, at least as long as it takes for them both to poo. always rewards when they do.
head back home for playtime, etc. until about 11:00pm when im ready to shower and sleep. the dogs sleep in their room.

***
writing it out seems like no problem. but i am EXHAUSTED.
first problem: they dont care if we're outside or not, they just squat wherever now. im finding they pee anywhere in my house now. they did real well for almost a month, only using the pad when i wasnt home, and outside when i am. but now it doesnt matter to them, they just 'go' at random times whether on the pad or not.

second: they pull so hard i can hear her struggling to breathe when we walk. her front feet are actualy dangling some of the time, she pulls so hard. and he pulls just to keep up with her, i think. or they try to jump all over each other and wrestle in the middle of our walk.
i did try headcollars on both of them, but when they pull, their faces are forced downward and the collar slips right off their face if they continue pulling with their faces down. im not sure if i should try another brand of headcollar, or a body harness.(im sure i had the right sizes) i like the Dog Whisperers Illusion Collar, but it says not to be used on dogs with a 'long neck'. it used a greyhound as example not to be used, and comparing the breeds, i dont think it would be suitable for a doberman either... bummer.

i am having some difficulties with a few other areas as well, but i believe i have found the solution for those, and itll just take some time. Walking and housebreaking are the biggest issues for the moment.
***
i welcome ANY advice and/or criticism so long as it is constructive..
no, these are not my first DOGS, but they are my first PUPPIES. and i live alone, so im pretty well on my own in this. i have read many books and researched this breed specifically beforehand, but to read about skydiving and to experience it are two very different matters, we only truely learn through experience, im just looking for any advice from those who already have. thank you to anyone who can offer anything to this, isnt that what this forum is for?
I know it's such a long post. i appreciate you taking the time to read and reply to it.
*have a wonderful evening.


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## LindaA (May 25, 2010)

Well I'm not shy, I'll jump right in. First let me commend you for taking both dogs when your mom opted out. If not for you where would they have ended up? 

My daughter took on 2 Boxer puppies a few months ago and they are now about 5 months old also. I can tell you from her experience so far it helped to have 2, they entertain each other while she is teaching school. My SIL build a large crate for them to be in while both were at work, but the male soon learned to climb out, so they had to move them to the garage. It seems to be working out, but they do go potty at will because at 5 months they can't hold it all day.

It sounds like your schedule is overwhelming! At 5 months though I don't see anything you can eliminate. You are doing the right thing praising and treating them for pottying outside. It takes time and patience and will seem like you are repeating yourself over and over. I have a Border Collie mix that I adopted at 10 weeks old. She wasn't able to hold it all day until about 6 or 7 months. She is now 2 and hasn't had an accident in the house or her crate for a long time. So, at 5 months with your two you are almost there, just keep working on it, you are on the right track. One thing I might suggest though is a crate. My BC mix has been crated when we are gone from the day she came home. I did have to clean it several times (besides the normal cleaning, if you know what I mean!) when she was younger. Once her system was developed enough to hold it all day it worked out great because dogs won't eliminate in the place they sleep. It has become her "den" and she goes to it willingly now when we go to work or have to leave home. So you might consider a crate, it isn't cruel as some people think. 

I remember the frustration and feeling totally exhausted. My BC mix didn't calm down until around 18 months or so, she is an active dog. She still needs lots of exercise but we can take care of that with frisbee, ball and running in the back yard plus 3 walks per day. 

I would never berate you, and I hope no one else does either. Its obvious to me that you love your animals. Good luck and keep us informed on how you and the 2 dobies are doing.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

Thank you Linda.
I appreciate your response. It can be exhausting. and at times frustrating. I just keep reminding myself that it's all very necessary and will be well worth it in due time.

i just feel like, as far as housebreaking, somewhere, somehow we've taken a step backwards, and im not really sure where. but i suppose all i can do is what i have been doing? and it'll all balance itself out in the end.

as for the crate. i dont find it to be cruel, it can be an extremely effective tool. i only dont crate them because there are days when i have to work long hours, and living by myself, with no one to help me, i just dont feel that that method fits into my lifestyle. they wouldnt have the space to really play with each other and would just sleep all day in a crate until i come home (usually tired) from work at 9pm, and in turn would be awake and wanting to play all night. possibly ending up overweight or with other physical health issues from being crated for too long hours. which is why i only confine them to the spare room. there is plenty of space for them to play. i know the 'den' theory doesnt apply because its too large, so i try to take them outside right around the same times every day and place a pad on the floor only when i am not at home and overnight. if i am at home, they should be 'telling' me to take them outside if we are not already out there..

any advice on leash training?...i know boxers can be a pretty tough breed too. im thinking of trying a body harness, because like i said, i tried a head collar, but it didnt work out too well. but there are so many different styles, anyone have any suggestions as to what might be best for my dobies?

..i'm looking into obedience classes (if i can find one that fits into our already busy schedule). but its tough when theyre together because they tend to focus on each other, not on me. ive tried separating them for short periods of time (tying one off to a tree or fence while i work with the other) and the way they scream, youd think i was beating them. 
i mostly use verbal praise and petting as a reward for many things besides pottying, because treats get them too excited to focus on anything else.

well, thanks again. I'll keep on, keepin' on then and be sure to post on how they are (how we ALL are).
(their names are Bank & Loca, btw)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You actually need to quit keeping them together. I know it SEEMS like a good idea, but they need to be independent of each other, or separation anxiety can develop.

This doesn't mean they can NEVER play together, but it is a mistake too often made, and EVERYBODY pays for it. 

Overall it actually sounds like you're doing pretty well though. Kudos xD

When you work them separately, the other one should be completely out of sight out of mind (thus, you should work outside with one, and leave the other confined somewhere safe inside). The screaming will only become worse otherwise.


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## Tavi (May 21, 2010)

I have to agree with Xeph on working on obedience and such with the two dogs separately, for once they do tend to get to attentive to each other and not you and its harder for any person to focus on correcting two dogs rather than one. Now I'm not saying you won't be able to walk them together but I think you'd have an easier time teaching each one how to walk with you and then adding them both together again.

I personally don't like to use body harnesses for walking my dogs since the harness was mostly designed for tracking and pulling purchases, not for calmly walking beside me on the trail. I'm not saying you can't use them but I've never been able to use good body corrections when teaching a dog to heal by using a body harness. Instead of a simple tug on the neck I end up pulling their whole chest into me. LoL Which really just makes them want to pull ahead of me even more. 

So yeah I recommend obedience courses and honestly try taking them both to the classes, have a friend work with one while you work with the other. Or see if the trainer is willing to use your dog for demonstrations and such. I've had to do that in the past and sometimes people who come together for their puppy training can be willing to lend a hand and be your other puppies trainer as well. Though I tend to prefer its someone I know or the trainer who knows exactly when to correct.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

I agree with Xeph.

And please don't use head halters on dobes, they're not the right tool to use on a breed prone to CVI.

If they're pulling that much, you will need to work with them separately - they're not focusing on you. Which can also be caused by raising two puppies together.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Good for you for taking on these puppies, and yah I can imagine you're exhausted. That's the way it goes, even with ONE! LOL

I too highly recommend trying to work with them separately. There are MANY pitfalls to having littermates overbond, not the least of which is severe SA when for one reason or another one has to be away or god forbid gets seriously ill.

Could you crate them for the first half of your day at work and then release them to play in the room in the second half (to tire them a bit?). Not only would this help them 'learn' to hold their urine but also keep them somewhat separate at least half the time. 

For training, doing it one at a time, the other crated or 'roomed' while you work with other will be much more effective in the long run. Make sure the one not working has a really special stuffed kong or fave chew toy to occupy him while you are doing the session with the other. At this age sessions should be short and sweet anyway, so it shouldn't be too hard on either one. 

For the walking, check out the videos for "silky leash" on youtube for a great way to learn to condition a reflexive release of pressure on the collar and in the meantime I highly recommend the Easy Walk (front attach) harness for walking without worrying about their necks. I walk groups of dogs professionally and I think I would have gone crazy without putting my Cracker and the others on a similar harness when not doing solo loose leash walking work. 

My one worry about your original post is the cats crated in the room. You may be really stressing the cats out in this way. Great thought in theory, but you have no idea what the puppies are doing with the cats during the day..they could develop a fixation with the cats and may be harassing the poor things all day. 

For the housebreaking problems. Supervision and management is key at this age. So again, while they are out and about they need to have limited access to the whole of the house and be relatively well supervised so you can pop them out for a pee. Puppies need to pee before AND after play, naps, meals, any excitement at all..they really don't have a lot of control if they're moving around much. Again, your crate will come in handy, you can crate one and use a waist leash for the other and then switch. I know it's a LOT of work, but believe me it will be well worth it in the long run and it's likely only a couple of months more before they have much better control and you will be able to rest a bit. 

Good luck. They look like sweet pups.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

OK. i get everyone wants me to separate them. But i cant see how thats such an option. its not like we're playing in the backyard and i can leave the other in the house. theyre (supposed to be anyways) on the same poop schedule, and we go to the park for training, id have to leave one at home, drive all the way to the park, train for 10 minutes and come all the way home to switch?. what am i supposed to do? leave one locked in the car to freak out? ive had to just walk with her seperately a couple of times, and i can hear him crying inside three houses away.. still crying a half hour later when we get back, and she's that much harder to walk without him, continuously trying the circle around and run back to the house, no matter how far away we get. if she wasnt on a leash, she would have already lept in front of a car at least four times by now, she'll be walking 'normally' and then suddenly try to bolt in any direction she chooses, i doubt its because theres something there that im not seeing, since he doesnt do that...
and i dont have another place in my home where i can confine the other dog, my only option for when im at work is to put them in the room together. 
the crate i have is big enough for the cats to be comfortable in, not big enough for a doberman, let alone two of them.
...as for crating the cats, ive used this method when introducing my cat to a different dog(pit bull) in the past, and when introducing the second cat to the older one. and its seemed to work pretty well. when the puppies are out in my home, i see how much differently they already react to them.. my younger one is letting them sniff her and is rarely hiding anymore, the older is still coming around to them. only when they start getting too rowdy and barking does she get frightened and may hiss a little and run off.
the puppies are not agressive toward the cats, they just play rough with one another and in time they'll learn that they cant play with the cats in that manner.

..and im not saying that there are no other trips outside other than what's listed there. it just doesnt seem to matter how many times i take them outside, they are still going in the house, sometimes as soon as we get in the door. yes, ive bought stain and odor removers and have been having to mop my floors almost on a nightly basis for this past week.
they did really well with only going outside for like a month and a half, and now they suddenly cant hold it anymore? the schedule hasnt changed. 
and now she's been EATING the pee pads i use for when im not home. not just shredding, but actually eating them, i have a holder for the pad, and she/they (im not sure, it may be both of them, but ive only seen it come out in her stool) still tear holes in the middle and start from there. this morning was the second time ive found it like this. any suggestions? i obviously cant continue to use them if this is going to happen to them all. its going to make my dog(s) sick.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

CagedAnimal said:


> OK. i get everyone wants me to separate them. But i cant see how thats such an option.


i hate to be harsh but MAKE IT AN OPTION. the previous posters were NOT JOKING when they said that this can become a SERIOUS issue. In severe instances, it can even negatively impact their physical health. 



> its not like we're playing in the backyard and i can leave the other in the house. theyre (supposed to be anyways) on the same poop schedule, and we go to the park for training, id have to leave one at home, drive all the way to the park, train for 10 minutes and come all the way home to switch?. what am i supposed to do?


recruit a dog walker to help you. seriously. or do very short jaunts in the yard and try to break the dog's attention away from their separation by attempting to engage the dog in play. Run, clap your hands, talk in a happy voice, toss a toy or just hang out for a quick session of affection sans their buddy. they NEED time apart. they need to learn to cope with it. what are you going to do when one has to stay overnight at the vet for whatever reason? i wouldnt even worry about too much intensive training right now.

How familiar are you with Classical Conditioning?



> leave one locked in the car to freak out? ive had to just walk with her seperately a couple of times, and i can hear him crying inside three houses away.. still crying a half hour later when we get back, and she's that much harder to walk without him, continuously trying the circle around and run back to the house, no matter how far away we get. if she wasnt on a leash, she would have already lept in front of a car at least four times by now, she'll be walking 'normally' and then suddenly try to bolt in any direction she chooses, i doubt its because theres something there that im not seeing, since he doesnt do that...


My thing is aggro dogs. you want to talk to MissMutt. She's a poster here. You'd do well to join in on her Fear threads. this is very much a fear/anxiety issue. 
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/50571-fearful-dog-thread.html?highlight=Fearful+Thread(this one for reading)
http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-...l-dog-thread-ii.html?highlight=Fearful+Thread(post questions here)

you'll find a lot of support there. and i sent a message to someone familiar with Separation Anxiety to come check this thread out. Ive dealt with it twice. but not to an extensive degree because they were fosters.



> and i dont have another place in my home where i can confine the other dog, my only option for when im at work is to put them in the room together.
> the crate i have is big enough for the cats to be comfortable in, not big enough for a doberman, let alone two of them.


i dont even particularly care for crate training but in this case..you need it. Get two crates that are sized for ONE dog each. work on getting them crated separately.




> ..and im not saying that there are no other trips outside other than what's listed there. it just doesnt seem to matter how many times i take them outside, they are still going in the house, sometimes as soon as we get in the door. yes, ive bought stain and odor removers and have been having to mop my floors almost on a nightly basis for this past week.
> they did really well with only going outside for like a month and a half, and now they suddenly cant hold it anymore? the schedule hasnt changed.
> and now she's been EATING the pee pads i use for when im not home. not just shredding, but actually eating them, i have a holder for the pad, and she/they (im not sure, it may be both of them, but ive only seen it come out in her stool) still tear holes in the middle and start from there. this morning was the second time ive found it like this. any suggestions? i obviously cant continue to use them if this is going to happen to them all. its going to make my dog(s) sick.


pee pads arent really that great. they can be very confusing to some dogs because its a mixed message that says "its ok to go inside but not ok to go inside"

and the eating of them probably stems from the anxiety issues.

to be honest i think you need to bring in a pro. you're in really deep. you're going to have to do some serious conditioning to get these two on track and that sort of thing is hard to convey over the internet.

good luck. seriously.

i work almost exclusively with serious problem aggression. and i will be honest. you are smack in the middle of something that could easily be what i consider to be my WORST training nightmare.

Im not trying to scare you. i just want you to realize that a. this is gonna be some work. its not gonna happen overnight and b. it really really is serious.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

CagedAnimal said:


> OK. i get everyone wants me to separate them. But i cant see how thats such an option. its not like we're playing in the backyard and i can leave the other in the house. theyre (supposed to be anyways) on the same poop schedule, and we go to the park for training, id have to leave one at home, drive all the way to the park, train for 10 minutes and come all the way home to switch?. what am i supposed to do? leave one locked in the car to freak out?


When I said training sessions I meant in house training sessions to start, one dog in a crate or tethered with a good food toy, the other NEARBY in sight working on basic OB. You do not need to go to the park to work training with the pups, in fact you'll likely have less distraction in the house for the basic building blocks of training. Short sessions (5-10 minutes) and switch dogs. They MUST become accustomed to sharing your attention AND being apart from each other doing separate things..which brings me to....

THIS:



> ive had to just walk with her seperately a couple of times, and i can hear him crying inside three houses away.. still crying a half hour later when we get back, and she's that much harder to walk without him, continuously trying the circle around and run back to the house, no matter how far away we get. if she wasnt on a leash, she would have already lept in front of a car at least four times by now, she'll be walking 'normally' and then suddenly try to bolt in any direction she chooses, i doubt its because theres something there that im not seeing, since he doesnt do that...


This is the beginnings of a very serious behavioural issue for both dogs. This is exactly why we don't recommend to people they get two pups at a time and when they do we recommend separate crating etc. Yes it's twice the work and yes you will have to find a way to work on this now before they are 85 lb adults with severe separation anxiety. This means GRADUALLY increasing short times away from each other. Even if this means just in and out of the bedroom, separated by a door for ten seconds. Seriously. You will be in for a boatload of further issues if you can't get this under control. You also have one male and one female puppy, guaranteed there will come a time you HAVE to separate them, if she goes into heat, for their respective spay/neuters etc...

Get two dog sized crates for these kids so get em used to it NOW). Not cheap I know, check Craig's list etc. Ask the breeder if she/he has any spares to sell etc. 



> ..and im not saying that there are no other trips outside other than what's listed there. it just doesnt seem to matter how many times i take them outside, they are still going in the house, sometimes as soon as we get in the door. yes, ive bought stain and odor removers and have been having to mop my floors almost on a nightly basis for this past week.
> they did really well with only going outside for like a month and a half, and now they suddenly cant hold it anymore? the schedule hasnt changed.
> and now she's been EATING the pee pads i use for when im not home. not just shredding, but actually eating them, i have a holder for the pad, and she/they (im not sure, it may be both of them, but ive only seen it come out in her stool) still tear holes in the middle and start from there. this morning was the second time ive found it like this. any suggestions? i obviously cant continue to use them if this is going to happen to them all. its going to make my dog(s) sick.


Young dogs do regress with potty training sometimes, remember that their bodies are constantly changing and heading into adolescence their brains and hormones are too. Supervision, management (crates, tethers) and prevention as much as possible is what will get you through. As for trips outside, how often are they? Are the puppies playing at all (if they are loose then they probably are...more pee more pee!!) and are you REWARDING them for peeing and pooing outside? Voiding is innately reinforcing, hence the term "relieve yourself", so it is important that the value of going OUTSIDE is more reinforcing than going inside. 

Make sure before you come back inside that both have a pit stop and are EMPTY before opening that door. All that walking etc moves the bladder to fill up. Putting the urination on cue helps a lot.

Yah, I would lose the pads. The risk of needing abdominal surgery for eating the pad is scarier than puddles on the floor in the dog room. If you crate train them (half the day) it will help with this problem. 

If all else fails and you cannot manage. I would seriously think about returning one of the pups to the breeder ASAP. Before the issues get worse.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

...if she's eating the pads due to SA from me, how is it going to help by putting her completely alone?
that sounds a little counter productive. i could understand if she did it when she was alone, away from both me and him, but he's still in the room with her when this is happening.
they dont eat or chew anything else..there are boxes of stored items in that room with them, and they havent even attempted to get into any of them. they have their toys for that and it didnt take long to show them things its OK to chew. my shoes are the only other thing they try to take, but thats only when ive forgotten to put them away in the closet.
i thought it seems confusing to use the pads in the first place too, but they DID use them on days that i couldnt take my break right on schedule or get stuck in traffic on the way home, whatever reason couldnt take them out when i normally would. and when i am at home, there is no pad down for them, they have to go outside. Im saying the issue is that they dont anymore..

i thought when we brought them home, that i would have someone to help me, but now i dont.

"recruit a dog walker to help you. seriously. or do very short jaunts in the yard and try to break the dog's attention away from their separation by attempting to engage the dog in play."

i cant afford professional dog walkers and things like that, now i have the expenses of two dogs, not just one. that im trying to make up for. im looking into obedience classes, but i dont know if i can actually afford any of them yet. id also need something that wont cut into my work schedule or i definitely wont be able to afford it.
and we dont play in a yard. my neighbor has dogs that are often loose in the backyard and dont do well with strange dogs, so we go to the PARK. which is a drive away. that would cut there time outside to more than half of what it is now if i tried to take them separately, nevermind the gas expense to get there and back.

i cant just throw them in a crate for 6 hours at a time and expect them to accept their 'den'. it would be different if i wasnt working (on vacation, or something similar) and had days to spend slowly getting them used to it, but i am(even on weekends), and i dont.
im single, i dont have any friends, i live alone. by myself. working 50 hours a week now just to get by on a little over minimum wage. im trying to do what i can that WAS working until very recently, which is why ive found myself here.
i love them and im trying to do all that i can, but if it comes down to absolutely having to give them up, if there really is nothing i can do about these things on my own(other than crating, i wont do that for such long hours, would be pointless toward housebreaking anyways), then i might just have to.


*just an unrelated side note: GIR is spelled with an 'i'.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

Cracker said:


> This is exactly why we don't recommend to people they get two pups at a time...


It was supposed to be my mother and i each getting ONE puppy. not Two for me. this is just the way it fell apart and as i said before, im trying to make the pieces fit back together as well as i can.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

You REALLY need to figure out a way to seperate them. You say they get upset now when they are seperated. Think about it in a year or two from now. You NEED to get this on track. period. or you will have HUGE problems down the road. 6 hours in a crate is not that long, they should do fine with your lunch break breaking it up. They need one on one time with you. or else you will have 2 very dominent breeds taking over, which will not be good at all.

If you can not seperate them in other rooms, work one on one with them, and make them learn its ok to be seperate. callt he breeder, as them tot ake one back. any breeder worth anything will take one back. Or help you out.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

I commend you on your dedication and hard work. But you do need to listen to the people who say find a way to seperate them NOW before it gets worse. Seriously in a years time, if you don't break this up now eating a pad will seem sooo trivial and minimal compared to the damage that could happen by a truley SA dog. Damage to the house (eating window frames, walls and door frames) and the dog (chewing on itself) SA can get a whole lot worse. So it's going to be tough for you at first, but when you make it through to the other side you will have more stable adult dogs.

Also agreed that you need to consider returning one of the pups to the breeder IF you can't work on separating the dogs (like Cracker mentioned little times at first then gradually increasing)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I should get you a tape of two dogs screaming when they're separated because everybody thought it was "better for them" as puppies to be together all the time. As someone who worked in a grooming shop, people that bring in those kinds of dogs make the groomer annoyed and in my case, extremely angry.

It is OBNOXIOUS to listen to two dogs scream for THREE HOURS because "OMG HE'S NOT RIGHT NEXT TO ME!" You have to suck it up and separate them. It may seem counter productive, but the sooner you start making the split, the better. You're going to create monsters if you don't get them apart.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

How about finding a non-professional dog walker? A high school student would be fine even; have them go to the park with you and each take a dog. Once you're at the park, keep the dogs a little distance from each other and let the kid play with or walk the one dog around while you do some training with the other. Then switch. 

You can keep an eye on the dog with the kid for safety but still be far enough apart to get some one-on-one training time. I bet you can find someone willing to do this for $10 or maybe even free if they just want the chance to play with a cute puppy. 

Try posting on craigslist under the friendship/platonic section; you know, where people ask for running or workout buddies, etc. See if there is someone in your area that can be a dog walking buddy, for example, someone who wants to walk for fitness and would be interested in taking along one of the dogs. Walk the dogs together for a bit to get to know the person and then try out walking the dogs separately... maybe you start out at the same time in opposite directions around the neighborhood.

If you don't want to crate them (although I think 6 hours is OK and far better in this case than creating SA), then what about using an ex-pen for each of them? A little more space to move around and stretch but still contained separately? 

Can you talk to your neighbor about the loose dogs so that you can make use of your yard? He's probably breaking leash or containment laws if you live in a city/suburbs. If this is a shared backyard like you live in a condo or duplex, then contact the landlord. 

Here's the thing: if you don't fix this NOW, you will be creating two dogs that are not adoptable. You say that you would consider returning one to the breeder if that is what is best for the dog, which is a good thing to be able to say. But if you continue down the path you are on now, if you are forced to return one of them later, they will have severe behavioral problems that will make them VERY hard to re-home.

Oh, and where in the world are you that you can own an alligator?


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

they dont go to a groomer. im capable of bathing my own dogs.
i understand what youre saying tho. but i dont have anyplace to separate them! i only have the one spare room (which by the way would be my bedroom. i now sleep in the living room). i will not crate them. its not six hours total. its six hours at a time that i was referring to. i work 2 double shifts a week. (9am-9pm) every other day its 1pm-9pm. sunday is the only day i have the entire day off and also the only day i have to run errands and do my household chores (laundry, etc.) so i then have to leave them at home in between also.


...returning one or both of them is not an option, they didnt come from a breeder, they came from a pet store. i said 'give them up', not 'return' which i dont want to do.

..i tried the 'together but separate' thing a few times, they both cry and scream as soon as im far enough away that they cant physically play together. neither of them will listen if they can see or hear the other. aside from the pulling when we walk, they listen fairly well for puppies. when i tell them to 'stop' at the curb, they stop and wait for me to tell them to 'cross'. and they 'wait' for me to put the bowls down on the floor at feeding times, or 'leave it alone' (whatever it may be).
walking and housebreaking are really the only problems im having...(and as of last night, the eating of pee pads).


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You can still return one. We're giving you all your options, you just don't seem to like them, so I'm wondering why you even asked.

You're going to create dogs that are nuts, and none of us are exaggerting on this. 6 hours at a time is a lot...but it's doable. My 4 month old puppy spends that amount of time in her crate at night...she sleeps.

The puppies could even be crated in the same room, but away from each other (maybe even with sheet covers over them). Give them each a raw bone, and leave. They'll be fine, and they'll learn to "hold it". Nobody is going to die if you do this, but if you DON'T do this, it WILL result in severe repercussions.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CagedAnimal said:


> they dont go to a groomer. im capable of bathing my own dogs.
> i understand what youre saying tho. but i dont have anyplace to separate them! i only have the one spare room (which by the way would be my bedroom. i now sleep in the living room). i will not crate them. its not six hours total. its six hours at a time that i was referring to. i work 2 double shifts a week. (9am-9pm) every other day its 1pm-9pm. sunday is the only day i have the entire day off and also the only day i have to run errands and do my household chores (laundry, etc.) so i then have to leave them at home in between also.
> 
> ...returning one or both of them is not an option, they didnt come from a breeder, they came from a pet store.


If they didn't come from a breeder who can take one back, then it is even MORE important that you work with them to prevent SA and other behavior problems. A one or two year old Dobe that has SA will be essentially unadoptable in 95% of humane society/city shelters. 

The groomers is an example, even if you bath your dogs yourself, they will at someone point need to be separate for vet treatment. And you don't need to sound so indignant about being "capable" of bathing your own dogs; many people have breeds that are far more suited to professional grooming (like poodles) or live in apartments with showers not large enough etc. To each their own.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yup. My dogs don't go to the groomers. The point of my example is, if they have to be separated for any reason, there will be DAYS, not hours, DAYS of screaming, and whining, and crying, because the other one is not there. It makes it unplesant for everybody...and in particular, your neighbors!

It makes it unplesant at the vet, because you have one screaming out in the front room and when screaming and making it hard to work with in the exam room. Or if you take them in together, they're trying to be with each other, and the vet can't get any work done.

It's not sad. It's pathetic. And with breeds as large as Dobies, it CAN be dangerous.

I've had dogs try to bite me because I was going to separate them for bath time. They were little dogs. They can still do damage, but I would not want to experience two Dobermans (or Shepherds, or Newfies, or Saints) trying to go after me for the same reason (my point being that breed is not the issue, but SIZE, because they could injure me much more than a Shih Tzu is likely too).

By the way, being from the pet store, I wish you even MORE luck, because those dogs do not come from proper breeders.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I know this is only part of the problem but I have always found that puppies of any age just love to chew up puppy pads. There seems to be something about them that they think it is lots of fun to chew them up. I would not necessarily say that it has anything to do with separation anxiety. (I am not saying that they do not like to be separated)

I cannot see the problem with getting even one crate and putting one of them in it while you take the other one out by itself for a little while and do some training. It is certainly easier to do it now when they are only 4 months old and are not big enough to demolish a crate which they can do when they get older and stronger.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

Xeph said:


> You can still return one. We're giving you all your options, you just don't seem to like them, so I'm wondering why you even asked.
> You're going to create dogs that are nuts, and none of us are exaggerting on this. 6 hours at a time is a lot...but it's doable. My 4 month old puppy spends that amount of time in her crate at night...she sleeps.
> .


returning them to where i got them from is NOT an option.
I didnt ask about separating them, i meerly mentioned that i had tried it for leash training, and it didnt go well. i asked about housebreaking and walking.
if they were only crated overnight i wouldnt have a problem doing it, but they cant sleep all day & night. if i crate them all day, they'll be so wound up from not being able to play all day that they wont possibly want to go to sleep at night.
i just cant see how only crating at night would solve anything, (even the SA) since they dont normally sleep together anyhow. i dont know 100% for at night, but they very rarely curl up together for naps during the day.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*headdesk* I quit


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

Good. maybe someone can help answer the questions i DID ask then.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Xeph DID answer you. You just decided to ignore all the good advice by coming up with excuse after excuse of why you couldn't do this and that. 

Leash walking, house training, development of independence, these are all interconnected. There are many things that go into developing a well-trained and confident adult dog and if you screw up something major (like.... creating a very co-dependent dog) then it is very difficult to have the other things (leash skills, etc) fall into place correctly.

Your dogs CAN be crated or put in an ex-pen during the day; they are NOT burning off tons of energy while you are gone like you seem to think they are. Even adult dogs easily sleep 16 hours a day. My dog can spend an entire work day asleep on my couch and get up only for a drink of water on occasion. Puppies can sleep 18-20 hours a day.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I should get you a tape of two dogs screaming when they're separated because everybody thought it was "better for them" as puppies to be together all the time. As someone who worked in a grooming shop, people that bring in those kinds of dogs make the groomer annoyed and in my case, extremely angry.
> 
> It is OBNOXIOUS to listen to two dogs scream for THREE HOURS because "OMG HE'S NOT RIGHT NEXT TO ME!" You have to suck it up and separate them. It may seem counter productive, but the sooner you start making the split, the better. You're going to create monsters if you don't get them apart.


Not only obnoxious, but as every one pointed out, dangerous. I worked in a salon for years. We had an employee that had two Goldens that could NOT be separated from each other, but we had started a policy that no dogs are kenneled together. They were kenneled RIGHT next to each other, but couldn't see. One of them broke the heavy metal removeable divider and practically ripped her nose off and most of her toenails. When they came back and we kenneled them across so they could see each other, I watched for all of two minutes while they slammed into the bars before it got to be such a frenzy I took them out of the kennel- one of them limping. Totally destroyed one of her shoulders.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

If you are going to commit to keeping both puppies, then get them each a crate (kijiji, freecycle....) and work on separating them more. Double the work with two puppies, it's life. They've come from a petstore so housebreaking is going to be ten times as hard, again, that's life. 

For their own mental health, they need to be separated as much as possible. Play together with you around, fine, but they need to be aware they can live without each other nearby. Your responsibility in keeping both is to make that happen. Ask your mom to at least help out with some 'sleepovers' with one, if she's that close she should be able to come and walk them for you when you're at work too. Go for walks with one at a time, have one in a crate with a bone in one room while you snuggle with the other for a tv show, then swap them. Take one for a car ride to the store and then the other next time, or through the drive through window. Get some small gifts for the neighbors and explain your situation so they understand what the screaming is about for the first few weeks of their separation training.

If you can't do this, please contact a rescue and place one into another home, so they can have that good start to life and so on. It's nothing to be ashamed of to be honest and say 'this is way too much for me' and give up one. Hoarders have the best intentions but end up hurting more than they help. Not that you're a hoarder, but you have to think about what's best for the dogs. Dobes are not an easy place breed and a half trained, not housebroken basketcase adult dog doesn't stand a chance.

If you honestly don't have the space in your house for two crates, in different rooms eventually, then not sure what else to tell you. Crates make great bedside tables by the way, put one on either side of the bed if nothing else. If you're not going to crate them they will NOT get housebroken while you're gone. Ok they might, but I wouldn't count on it.

Lana


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

GRR is spelled with an R

its a joke and a long story.

you need to STOP being hopeless. its getting you nowhere. you're running on a defeatist attitude and if you keep running down that path...someone is going to get bit and you run a high risk of being SUED and possibly putting other dobe owners in a really bad position.

STOP thinking about what you CANT do and start thinking about what you CAN do.

budget. look at the things you buy regularly and see what you can cut out. With problem dogs and problem schedules, you have to make sacrifices. take that money and hire some high school kid to help you with the dogs. it should be easy to find one who will do it cheap as you have a pair of dobes and kids love taking these kinds of jobs.

if I..ME..Zim...is recommending crates...you NEED a crate lol. that's not a recommendation i make lightly. you dont just "throw" the dogs in there. you condition them to accept confinement in the crate.

you wouldnt happen to be in NC by any chance would you...if you are..id come help you. dead serious. Id really hate to see these pups end up pts. 

the questions you asked dont address the problem. i will not ignore a SERIOUS problem.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Afternoon CagedAnimal! Some one sent me a PM directing me to this thread to see if maybe I can help you out, since my specialty happens to be dogs with separation issues. I hope I can explain things for you. I had a dog called Carter who had extreme Separation Anxiety, so I studied everything I came across and practiced it.

I have never had a puppy before, I'm not to keen on puppies just because they are so much work, much more then a dog that is 1yr old plus. I've been reading a lot recently on raising a puppy since I'm going to be getting one in the next few years so I'll try to explain things as best as I can.

That being said. The number one rule of owning puppies is, if you've never raised a puppy before never get more then one  Even most top of the line breeders will not take on 2 puppies if they can avoid doing so (yes it is really that hard to do). That being said, since you had no option, the second rule is to make sure that both puppies get as much one-on-one time with you as possible. Never try to train both puppies together. You don't want them to become reliant on each other for support, because dogs bond stronger with other dogs then humans, you want that bond to be just as strong with you. 



> first problem: they dont care if we're outside or not, they just squat wherever now. im finding they pee anywhere in my house now. they did real well for almost a month, only using the pad when i wasnt home, and outside when i am. but now it doesnt matter to them, they just 'go' at random times whether on the pad or not.


This is a very common thing with puppies and a break in housebreaking. Dogs no matter how great they are at it, normally aren't house broken until they go 6 MONTHS without an accident. It is also common until a dog is fully housebroken that when you are around it won't potty in the house, but when you are away, they will go in the house. This is where crates are wonderful. I would start crating again when you are gone and when you are not able to keep a full eye on the puppies. With your schedule I would STILL crate your dogs (in separated crates) when your gone. Also stop with the pee pads. Pee Pads promote peeing in the house which is what you are trying to stop. It's counter intuitive...



> second: they pull so hard i can hear her struggling to breathe when we walk. her front feet are actualy dangling some of the time, she pulls so hard. and he pulls just to keep up with her, i think. or they try to jump all over each other and wrestle in the middle of our walk.
> i did try headcollars on both of them, but when they pull, their faces are forced downward and the collar slips right off their face if they continue pulling with their faces down. im not sure if i should try another brand of headcollar, or a body harness.(im sure i had the right sizes) i like the Dog Whisperers Illusion Collar, but it says not to be used on dogs with a 'long neck'. it used a greyhound as example not to be used, and comparing the breeds, i dont think it would be suitable for a doberman either... bummer.


Teaching a dog to walk on the leash without pulling is the HARDEST thing to train IMO. It's taken me 2 years to get my dog Nubs to finally walk always on a loose leash. He wouldn't pull after 6 months, but liked the leash to be fully stretched out. It's just been this past few months that it has finally clicked, and this is while using a Prong Collar. 
This is a really good video to teach you have to teach your dog to walk on a leash. http://www.petfinder.com/videos/petfinder-walking-on-a-leash.html
Honestly though, you'll have to start training them one at a time. Before going on a walk, try to burn off some of their energy with a game of fetch or something. If they have pent up energy they won't learn or listen to what you want them to do.



> .i'm looking into obedience classes (if i can find one that fits into our already busy schedule). but its tough when theyre together because they tend to focus on each other, not on me. ive tried separating them for short periods of time (tying one off to a tree or fence while i work with the other) and the way they scream, youd think i was beating them.
> i mostly use verbal praise and petting as a reward for many things besides pottying, because treats get them too excited to focus on anything else.


This is an issue that commonly arises when puppies spend too much time together and not enough one-on-one time with their human. It is very common and can lead to many issues as you are starting to see.

Honestly, I'm the type of person I would let them cry it out no matter what. You can make things better by giving one of the dogs a very very yummy frozen Kong http://dogs.thefuntimesguide.com/2006/02/dog_recipes_for_kong_chew_toys.php so that they learn when their sibling is gone they get yummy treats. At first just place one in a cage where it can see you and it's sibling while you train and do one-on-one work with the other, then switch them and do it all over again. Obedience is a great confidence builder (so are games like Tug-of-war (let the dog win most of the time) and hide-and-seek either with you or food) and it will help build a relationship with you and your dogs. Soon they will rely on you more then each other.



> OK. i get everyone wants me to separate them. But i cant see how thats such an option.


If you have more then one room in your house, you can separate them from each other. You need to invest in 2 crates, I personally like Walmart or Meijer for this (or even Craigslist) because the crates are normally cheaper then places like Petco or Petsmart. I picked up a 42" for like $60. I at first would start them in their own crates right next to each other and then slowly over time move them away from each other until they are use to being alone. 

I know it seems weird to want to separate your dogs, but right now they need to learn to rely on you not each other. There will be times that they will need to go to the Vet alone, or at some Kennels when you go away they will not allow even dogs that live together to be kenneled together. It's great for them to be friends but it should be "connected at the hip" friends. You need to promote their individuality.



> just cant see how only crating at night would solve anything, (even the SA) since they dont normally sleep together anyhow. i dont know 100% for at night, but they very rarely curl up together for naps during the day.


I REALLY want to address this. When I first started learning about SA and how to treat and manage it I couldn't understand how this would help. How could keeping your dog out of your room at night help with SA. Well look at it this way, if your dog is able to be apart from you while it's sleeping for 8 hours, 6 hours should be easy. It promotes confidence in themselves. I know it's hard but it NEEDS to happen. There will be days of crying, it's normal, just let them be. Don't coddle them, let them cry. If you need to, invest in ear plugs for a few days. Heck if you live really close to someone, buy them ear plugs and tell them what you are doing. Letting the dogs just cry is OK. It's hard but it's a lot like having a newborn baby. If you get up for every whimper, soon you'll have a child that will only sleep if they are in your bed if not they will throw a temper tantrum. That is what your dogs are doing when they start screaming, it's the dog version of a temper tantrum.

Personally, with you working 50hrs a week, and not really having time for a puppy, I would honestly consider rehoming one of the two puppies. I know that is a hard thing to think about, but having one dog will be a lot less time consuming and with Dobermans being the breed they are, they are very VERY sensitive, and can be very anti-social toward people if you don't do the right amount of socializing right now as they are puppies. It can be down right dangerous. The puppies MUST have a lot of one-on-one time with you and a lot less together time if you are even going to be able to learn to control them. They need more then what you can give them both. That isn't something to be ashamed of. Not in the slightest. I know I would be unable to raise 2 puppies and not have them have issues. I KNOW that, and I'm willing to say it. 

It may be hard, and I will say that your puppy will scream and cry and scream and cry, but it WILL move on. Dogs do live in the now, but when a dog is scared and away from what it knows, they cry. Don't coddle the crying, let them do it until they stop. Once the dog stops crying, then get it out of it's crate and do something fun like playing or walking.

Also you can check into Doggy Daycare for one dog a day. Switch it up and get them out and playing with other dogs. It will be a good confidence builder and promote them being alone.

I wish you the best of luck if you decide to attempt to keep both of them. I would personally find a good home for one of the puppies though. Dogs don't really need other dogs to be happy. All they need is you.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

It may be a good idea, right away, to contact the local dobe rescue and let them know of your situation. I would imagine/hope that they would want to help you with things so you can keep both dogs, or so it's easier to place a pup down the road if things don't work out. Even a temp foster home for one so you can get them under control and crated would be AWESOME.

Keep in mind that the female puppy will come into season in a few months, and if you can't separate the two dogs then...... you will have much bigger issues than you do now. 

Lana


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Bordermom said:


> Keep in mind that the female puppy will come into season in a few months, and if you can't separate the two dogs then...... you will have much bigger issues than you do now.
> 
> Lana


This didn't even cross my mind... boy is it true and needs to be repeated. A Bitch in season with an intact male in the house that can not be kept apart


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> This didn't even cross my mind... boy is it true and needs to be repeated. A Bitch in season with an intact male in the house that can not be kept apart


And they're brother and sister. And from a puppy mill. And puppies themselves.....

Lana


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> If they have pent up energy they won't learn or listen to what you want them to do.


Alright!. 
first: this is why i dont want to crate them all day while im at work. i know puppies sleep alot, but not ALL DAY and if theyre allowed to play with each other while im not there, they can burn off SOME energy at least and would be easier to work with a little later, right?

[/QUOTE=Darkmoon;822752] How could keeping your dog out of your room at night help with SA. Well look at it this way, if your dog is able to be apart from you while it's sleeping for 8 hours, 6 hours should be easy.[/QUOTE]

and second: my dogs dont sleep with me at night. they are closed in another room where they wont get into trouble, just not in crates. and they dont cry when i leave for work or close them in there for the night... they cried when i attempted to separate them from each other for training. even when they could still see each other... 

ok, so i give the one dog a treat to distract him while i work with her... how am i supposed to get her to actually learn anything? when she's just focused getting back with him?



***no, Zim, im not in NC. if i were, id welcome you to come show me the 'right way'.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

if you dont want to take the advice of these OBVIOUSLY KNOWLEDGABLE people then why do you keep asking .... crating them for 6 hours is FINE especially if you give them a bone or something that they like or a frozen kong ... it works their mind... if you really want buy 2 buster cubes, they are feeding toys that work the mind .... they keep the dog entertained and burn up energy mentally which is way more effective. and if you get crates you can crate them and put them literally right next to each other which i would suggest.... they will whine and freak out plenty LET THEM .....


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Miranda16 said:


> if you dont want to take the advice of these OBVIOUSLY KNOWLEDGABLE people then why do you keep asking .... crating them for 6 hours is FINE especially if you give them a bone or something that they like or a frozen kong ... it works their mind... if you really want buy 2 buster cubes, they are feeding toys that work the mind .... they keep the dog entertained and burn up energy mentally which is way more effective. and if you get crates you can crate them and put them literally right next to each other which i would suggest.... they will whine and freak out plenty LET THEM .....


YES! this^^^

physical exercise is not the only kind of exercise dogs need. they also need mental stimulation. while they are in the crates while you are gone, give them one of the many widely available puzzle toys to work their minds out while they are in the crate. it will tire them out just as much as physical exercise will. ever sat down and done a really large puzzle? you get into a zen mode where you are concentrating and it can tire you out...same with dogs.

reconsider the crates. they can often be got very cheaply off of Craigslist or Kijiji.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

who asked YOU?
i was simply pointing out a couple of things that i thought she may have misread about my situation and my reasoning for the way ive been doing things.

and then i asked 'how do i get her to focus on me and training instead of trying to get back to him?' because its not only the one left alone that freaks out, its both of them, even if i am with the other.
Their 'SA' apparently isnt about me, its about each other.
so jump off my ass, huh?

i hadnt intended to have two puppies, but i do now, and im TRYING to manage. There really isnt anything i can 'cut back'. i dont go out to movies or dinner, my money goes to pay rent, utilities, pet food & toys, and some past debts. oh, and gas for the car (which i used to leave at home and take my bike most of the summer, but theres not enough time to get home and let the dogs out, and get back to work on my break. sorta forces me to take the car).

i have one crate that ive been using for the cats, that might be big enough for her, i think, but he's a little larger..


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

you know...i was just trying to help. but if you're gonna be rude and defeatist..im out.

im a single mom, full time college student, full time employee and a volunteer trainer. I manage on 8 bucks an hour...one four year old, one cancer ridden dog aggressive pit bull and six cats. plus all the dogs i train...for no fee...

stop acting like its the end of the world. you can find a way if you make an effort to.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CagedAnimal said:


> who asked YOU?
> i was simply pointing out a couple of things that i thought she may have misread about my situation and my reasoning for the way ive been doing things.
> 
> and then i asked 'how do i get her to focus on me and training instead of trying to get back to him?' because its not only the one left alone that freaks out, its both of them, even if i am with the other.
> ...


Rude much?

And no shit sherlock their SA isn't about you, its about each other. That's what the dozen+ posts have been trying to tell you and tell you how to prevent.

Do you have a porch, patio or even a garage? Put one of them in a crate with a kong or nylabone (two safe chew toys) and take the other one on a leash to the patio or garage. Out of sight of the other one. Have plenty of small, high value treats like bits of hot dog or bits of chicken. Treat and praise for the dog paying attention to you and being quiet. Even for a few seconds at first. Slowly increase the time of quiet attention required to get a treat. Do simple commands like sit and lay down, again with plenty of treats. Then play some, if you have room to put the dog on a long (15+ ft) leash and play fetch that's great. If not, try tug or just some good belly scratching.

Then switch dogs.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> And no shit sherlock their SA isn't about you, *its about each other*. *That's what the dozen+ posts have been trying to tell you and tell you how to prevent.*


BINGO! But hey, WTH do I know?


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

i didnt mean to jump on you ... its just you have been dismissing absolutely EVERYTHING that everybody has suggested 

i do realize their SA is about each other ... and it is going to take time for them to get used to being apart .... so you dont even neccessarily have to do training apart ... just sit out with the other one while they can see each other ... feed little bits of hot dog to the one thats out and just wait until he/she realizes that being with you and away from the other is not so bad 

there is not going to be a quick fix that is just going to magically make them not cry when they are apart or not freak out in the beginning. you are gonna have to be tough about not giving in to crying and screaming, because it will only make it worse. time is what is going to make this work. 

as for walking, walking them seperately is a pretty big deal, so that that way you can work one on one.
to deal with the pulling, everytime she pulls stop and dont move until she figures out pulling is getting her noplace ... mind you this also takes LOTS OF TIME

there really arent any easy outs in raising puppies, and unfortunately for you, you have been put into a situation where effectively training these guys is really pretty tough

i also thought the doggy daycare may be a good idea, though i do understand it is expensive


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

im sorry. that post wasnt directed toward you, zim. we seem to have been writing at the same time, and thats how it posted.
but this is kinda annoying for me too. i just said id try to find a crate i can afford big enough for him, and try to ask another question. and all anybody is telling me is 'crate them apart'. can we move on to when i do get a crate. how do i distract the one OUTSIDE the crate and get them to focus on actually training, and not trying to run back into the house or scream to get back with the other?..


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Xeph said:


> BINGO! But hey, WTH do I know?


nothing.  you're obviously an idiot with an out of control service dog and little to no dog experience at all. ah ah ah Xeph...being a show dog handler doesnt count.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

check the last page, i just posted


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> ah ah ah Xeph...being a show dog handler doesnt count


*ROFL* Damn!



> how do i distract the one OUTSIDE the crate and get them to focus on actually training, and not trying to run back into the house or scream to get back with the other?..


COOKIES! The most delightful treats you could imagine! If you need something inexpensive, get some cheapo hot dogs (like the BarS ones at walmart). You can either feed them "as is" or you can do what many do and nuke 'em until they're hot dog chips  (Basically you burn 'em). They're smelly and delicious! Boiled chicken works great (leftovers). String cheese or regular cheese, etc etc.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CRAIGSLIST! FREECYCLE! 

Even if you live in freaking podunk, you should be able to find a crate on one or the other. 

And I still want to know where you live that you can own an alligator.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

CagedAnimal said:


> i cant afford professional dog walkers and things like that, now i have the expenses of two dogs, not just one. that im trying to make up for. im looking into obedience classes, but i dont know if i can actually afford any of them yet. id also need something that wont cut into my work schedule or i definitely wont be able to afford it.


If you cannot afford obedience classes etc... then you may very well not be able to afford this breed. Dobermans are not cheap dogs to keep... trust me, look at my signature -_ I know from personal experience._



CagedAnimal said:


> and we dont play in a yard. my neighbor has dogs that are often loose in the backyard and dont do well with strange dogs, so we go to the PARK. which is a drive away. that would cut there time outside to more than half of what it is now if i tried to take them separately, nevermind the gas expense to get there and back.


You _do_ realize that your male will most likely _*not*_ be able to go to the dog park once he's an adult, right? 




CagedAnimal said:


> returning them to where i got them from is NOT an option.


Why not? 



CagedAnimal said:


> who asked YOU?


Yechnically, you did - you posted this on a public forum.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

CagedAnimal said:


> im sorry. that post wasnt directed toward you, zim. we seem to have been writing at the same time, and thats how it posted.
> but this is kinda annoying for me too. i just said id try to find a crate i can afford big enough for him, and try to ask another question. and all anybody is telling me is 'crate them apart'. can we move on to when i do get a crate. how do i distract the one OUTSIDE the crate and get them to focus on actually training, and not trying to run back into the house or scream to get back with the other?..


go to the training forum. look at ALL the stickies there.

check out the fearful dog threads. and realize that we're not trying to attack. you landed on a forum full of pros and people who have devoted their lives to dogs. we're GENUINELY concerned for your puppies. 

i think you need to do a little research. in the training forum stickies there are book recommendations...i think you need to print out that list and hit up your local library.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

CagedAnimal said:


> Alright!.
> first: this is why i dont want to crate them all day while im at work. i know puppies sleep alot, but not ALL DAY and if theyre allowed to play with each other while im not there, they can burn off SOME energy at least and would be easier to work with a little later, right?
> 
> and second: my dogs dont sleep with me at night. they are closed in another room where they wont get into trouble, just not in crates. and they dont cry when i leave for work or close them in there for the night... they cried when i attempted to separate them from each other for training. even when they could still see each other...
> ...


Since you don't seem to be listening much to anyone else, I'm going to bite my tongue and try to give this a go, with some comments on this quote and your situation in general. Forgive me if something has already been mentioned, I briefly skimmed the thread. 

You want your male/female puppies to play together while you're gone? What happens if they get too rough and fall off a couch, stairs, run into something, bite each other, get caught in something in your house and get hurt, mate, or chew something they shouldn't and die? I think a crate or any other method of keeping them seperated would be a small price to pay. You'd be surprised how much they won't actually play anyway- I know my dogs don't, I've videotaped them. 

What kind of house/apartment do you live in? Do you have a bedroom with a door and a bathroom with a door? These answers could save you some money on crates. 

In order to be able to teach these dogs anything, you're going to HAVE to seperate them. They need to learn to function and learn on their own without relying on each other. They need to realize that they have to rely on YOU for everything, not each other. This may mean that you can't get down to business training them for a few weeks or a month while you work on the seperation anxiety, but they're puppies, they're maleable and they'll learn, and you can move on with very well behaved pups after this, but if you don't work on this now, you'll never lead a happy peacefull life with them. 

Buy some crates, put them RIGHT up next to each other, and crate train each to his/her own crate. Yeah, they're going to cry and scream. It's not going to get better over night, but it will get better. Give them LOTS of great treats (cheese, beef, chicken, hotdogs) when they're being completely quiet, even if that means you have to wake them up from sleeping to do it. Completely IGNORE any whining or crying. Sounds terrible, but if you don't, you'll just be encouraging the behavior. Buy two Kongs and fill them full of peanut butter or yogurt (or both! ) and freeze them. When they go in their crates when you're at work, give them the kongs to stimulate their mind and keep them from thinking about each other. Every day or two, move the crates an inch or two apart. Eventually they'll be across the room or around corners and in different rooms from each other happily, and this is when you can start crating one in the other room while you're training the other. 

It just takes patience and time. 

Oh, and an open mind.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Honestly, I'll say it again. Contact a dobe rescue and see if they'll take one pup and work with it and find it a good home. A crate is the LEAST of your expenses with any dog, so if that's holding you back....

And you do realize you'll have to get the female spayed within a few months if not sooner, AND keep her separated/quiet for a few weeks after the surgery, or risk her coming into season and producing a litter of puppies with her brother? Right? 

It does sound like the best, kindest thing you can do for them is to place one. It sucks, but I think in the long run it would give both dogs and you the best possible outcome.

Lana


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

CagedAnimal said:


> Alright!.
> first: this is why i dont want to crate them all day while im at work. i know puppies sleep alot, but not ALL DAY and if theyre allowed to play with each other while im not there, they can burn off SOME energy at least and would be easier to work with a little later, right?


Your thinking about it wrong. I'm talking about before you go out on a walk, give them a good game of fetch or chase before you even start. Even maybe a jog on a treadmill. Them being out of a crate or in a crate isn't going to change that energy level. It's different from when they want to play and when they get SUPER excited to go out for a walk.

Crating really in this case is a must, and I'm not joking. I know you don't want to that is why you keep fighting it, but really, if you want things to get better then you have to follow what we are saying. Zim, Xeph, and the others here are correct in what they are saying. You may not like what we are saying but you have 3 choices:
1. leave it as it is, have puppies in the very near future (females go into heat at 6 months of age), and then deal with a bitch that is out of control and refuses to let you near the puppies.
2. crate train them so your female is safe in the next few months from your male (Males are known to eat through walls to get to a female)
3. get rid of one of your puppies.

I don't mean to be harsh, but those are your options at this point.



> and second: my dogs dont sleep with me at night. they are closed in another room where they wont get into trouble, just not in crates. and they dont cry when i leave for work or close them in there for the night... they cried when i attempted to separate them from each other for training. even when they could still see each other...


I'm talking about crating and separating your dogs. It's really idea to get them use to the crates, then one day get them really really tired and then start making them sleep in their crates (next to each other at first). If they can crate all night with out an issue then they can do it during the day.




> ok, so i give the one dog a treat to distract him while i work with her... how am i supposed to get her to actually learn anything? when she's just focused getting back with him?


You just have to wait it out until they give you attention. Maybe look into clicker training and try that. Use the clicker to click as soon as the crying stops and give them a treat. When they look at you *click*

Maybe instead of classes have a trainer come in and help you out. But you need to get a handle on this ASAP or get your female in to be spayed before her first heat. I'm pretty sure that you'll be unable to keep them apart and you'll end up with puppies which is NOT a good thing. a) it's unhealthy for a female that young to have puppies (think of it like a 12 or 13 year old getting pregnant for us), b) Puppy mill dogs (which is where pet shop dogs come from) are normally unhealthier then dogs from good breeders and you have no clue about the dog's parents and their health. With it being brother and sister, that's normally a no-no even in the best breeding programs. c) it's very dangerous for such a young dog to have puppies. Check out the price for an emergency C-setion VS a normal spay. One of our breeders here had a bitch that ended up needing a E-C-setion and ended up loosing most of the puppies. It happens.

Just open up and hear us out. I know it's rough. Most of us here are in our early 20's to late 20's working min wage and trying to do the best we can. We understand how hard it is. Your preching to the choir here.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I realize you are frustrated, not only with the puppies but also with your mum, who has really thrown a kibosh on your plans for the pups. 
Life really blows sometimes.

I won't continue on the crate thing..I think you get the point.

A couple of ideas on how to work on separating the dogs:
One in crate or tethered to a SOLID something and given a stuffed frozen kong (stuffed with canned dogfood, fish flavour is good and stinky, and frozen so it takes some work to eat the food). Other pup on leash JUST outside crate or just out of reach of other pup. Use REALLY good, very small pieces of food, like the hotdogs mentioned earlier and simply feed the pup in hand, one piece at a time. Lure the pup a foot or so farther away and feed some more, try to increase the distance gradually. Do it for a couple of minutes and then let the dogs play together for a few minutes (IF THEY"VE BEEN RELATIVELY CALM)..then switch dogs and repeat. 

Do this frequently. Then build up to mini training sessions with each pup. Building focus on you. Remember to reward them well AND then reward them with together time IF THEY'VE been calm. Keep the sessions really short and keep the reinforcement HIGH. 

Otherwise....
If you don't want to or can't do any of the highly professional advice you have been given here, rehome one or both of the pups now, when they still are young enough to settle in and be properly socialized and trained. You have to understand that all the information given here has been given because we care about the outcome with the pups and what is best for them and that your feelings are somewhat secondary. There is a wealth of experience here, but first and foremost we are here for the dogs. 

Good luck.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

I would honestly contact a Dobe rescue, and get some help. The student idea is good too. Bottom line, you need another set of hands.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

BrittanyG said:


> Bottom line, you need another set of hands.


which as i said before, at the time i brought the puppies home, i thought i would have.
(let's not start another argument, huh?)

i love them both and im not rehoming them unless it is absolutely the ONLY way to help them.
i have one crate with their blanket inside it, and will have another this weekend (if not sooner). until then, ill be leaving them in the room with the crate open for them to get used to it before having to be inside alone.
(i know, ive removed their collars so they wont get caught on anything.)

a coworker had suggested an obedience school that she brought her two dogs to. i was looking at their website and the different class schedules there. they have a two hour 'playtime' for puppies on Sat mornings. so i was thinking it might be good for them after a few weeks of, i dont know, lets call it separation therapy, at home, we could go there. maybe the first two or three times together, and then a few times alternating weeks between the two of them.. and while im there, we can look into the other courses too (if possible alternating weeks on that as well). or even maybe just with her,and i can work with him at home from what ive learned there with her. she seems a bit more stubborn than he is.

ok. everyone's happy now?

so these are the basic issues im having with them each (aside from the SA):
HER: housebreaking, walking, and ive noticed in the past couple of days that shes pretty fearful of new people, cars(especially buses and large trucks)...
HIM: housebreaking, he's a jumper, and as of very recently playful biting that is not fun on my end.

i'll let you know how i make out.

*side note* as far as them mating, i am planning to have at least him neutured, if not her spayed as well... or if i only fix one, should it be her?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

it should be her. google "pyometra"

plus you do know that unfixed female dogs have "periods" (to put it in the vernacular)..right?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sorry for the abrupt reply before..i was going to type all this out when my kid fell off his bed and started howling lol..anyways..



CagedAnimal said:


> i love them both and im not rehoming them unless it is absolutely the ONLY way to help them.
> i have one crate with their blanket inside it, and will have another this weekend (if not sooner). until then, ill be leaving them in the room with the crate open for them to get used to it before having to be inside alone.
> (i know, ive removed their collars so they wont get caught on anything.


id suggest crating whoever you have the most housebreaking issues with. They will be less inclined to "go" in the crate (if their mama raised them right and whoever had them before you didnt royally screw up mama dog's teaching. when you're home, throw a treat in there and tell the one you want to crate to go get it. when that one is inside, give a little affection and praise and then allow them to exit if they wish. to crate train, you classically condition the dog by pairing the event of being inside the crate with things the dog considers positive. and once you've done that for a bit, crate that dog when you leave..making sure to a. take them out for a potty right before you go and b. leave a chew in there. leave the other dog free in the same room. 



> a coworker had suggested an obedience school that she brought her two dogs to. i was looking at their website and the different class schedules there. they have a two hour 'playtime' for puppies on Sat mornings. so i was thinking it might be good for them after a few weeks of, i dont know, lets call it separation therapy, at home, we could go there. maybe the first two or three times together, and then a few times alternating weeks between the two of them.. and while im there, we can look into the other courses too (if possible alternating weeks on that as well). or even maybe just with her,and i can work with him at home from what ive learned there with her. she seems a bit more stubborn than he is.


this is a very good idea but id make sure to thoroughly investigate the place first. make sure their methods are sound and that they are methods you can live with.

did you check out the stickies i mentioned? because they will help A LOT with..



> so these are the basic issues im having with them each (aside from the SA):
> HER: housebreaking, walking, and ive noticed in the past couple of days that shes pretty fearful of new people, cars(especially buses and large trucks)...
> HIM: housebreaking, he's a jumper, and as of very recently playful biting that is not fun on my end.
> 
> i'll let you know how i make out.



...all of this^^^

direct links to some of the pertinent stickies

http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/2522-doggy-zen.html
http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/17428-desensitizing-dog-inanimate-objects.html
http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/6856-nilif-nothing-life-free.html
http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/4547-loose-leash-walking-using.html
http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/4915-rev-up-cool-down.html

edit to add
the Rev Up Cool Down exercise talks about children specifically but it can be easily adapted to other scenarios regarding humans and other animals with a little forethought.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Someone pointed me here, but it looks like everything has been recommended, maybe I can help manage some timelines:

1. Yes, get Her spayed at 6 mos. She can drive him crazy, just by the smell when she goes into heat.

2. Then, save up to get him fixed, it may help to calm him down and make him a bit more predictable. Maybe not, but it is still safer.

3. Dobies are high energy, intelligent dogs. Sounds like you're making good progress. But, you are correct, you do need extra hands. I haven't read anything suggested about Vet Student Techs.... My Vet hires student techs, and unpaid high school kids for the experience. You might ask around to see if your Vet knows of similar reliable kids to help out, sometimes just for the experience.

4. Another thing I have read here is about the age. At 5 mos, pups can hold it for about 6 hours, while you are gone. That tidbit may help your planning.

5. Also, at 4 - 5 mos, they are beginning to lose their baby teeth and get their adult teeth, so they are teething and in a little normal pain. The pain isn't a big deal, but they ways of dealing with it can include broken house training, chewing on the pad and other things, bad moods, hyperactivity. It should get better in a month or two, but you have to maintain patient training. Don't let them get away with things (for as much as possible), but realize the cause of the misbehavior - it is temporary.

6. Now the touchy topic - separation. Read the various posts and stickies about training for a crate. Then, assume that they will whine for 3 days and nights when you separate them. Get some ear plugs. 

7. It is hard to determine if the whine is due to separation or due to the need for a bathroom break. You should understand their schedule, but at the first whine, try to wait until they take a breath, and when one is briefly quiet, take it (him/her) out to potty for five minutes. Ignore the other. If no potty, return to the crate and take the other out. Then, put your ear plugs back in for a few hours. .... If you give in to a whining dog in the first three days, the result is Marley 

8. My personal opinion is that you start then in the separate crates at night for three nights. Let them out for the day. Then extend it to the nights and the morning, letting them out for the afternoon. Then, keep them in the crates for your convenience and sanity. It sounds like you're giving them plenty of quality time, so try to keep that up.

9. They do need to be socialized and need bite inhibition. Exposure to other folks may help you get a couple of more hands, too. In addition, you might try for one of those Vet Techs to help you walk both dogs, separately, as you try to teach them to walk gently.

10. In your situation, one of the suggestions was very appropriate: Training and exercise the dogs to tire them out... then take them for a walk. Dogs pull b/c they are rewarded for pulling by a walk. When they pull, then you follow. So you have to counter-condition and when they pull, you stop. Then when they sit or come back, you start. This takes a lot of patience and about 30 days for it to sink in. Plus, I don't know how to do this with two dogs at the same time. Good Luck. You're getting there.....


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

i know about the 'periods'. i didnt know about pyometra. ive had dogs before, just not puppies,and its been a few years since then. my family had at one time 4 females, none of them were spayed. we always just kept a close watch on them when they were in heat (to keep them from roaming the neighborhood, or we had one that would be agressive toward the others when she was in heat) and didnt think much of it.

im still in the process of reading, im not through yet.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Pyo is a risk that should be taken into account. 

basically if you fix him first...he may still try to mate with her during her heat. and that can significantly increase her risk for pyo..which if she gets it..you have to spay IMMEDIATELY or it WILL kill her. and an emergency spay for pyometra can in some cases run into the thousands of dollars depending on how critical it gets before you realize its happening.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Cagedanimal,
You sound like your starting to get a plan together. Good for you. Keep up the good work!

I would spay the female first at 6 mos and then save up to neuter the boy when he is full grown. There are MANY benefits to speutering, not the least of which is ensuring that no one creates more puppies, especially being that they are petstore pups. There are more than enough pups in this world. 

I also highly suggest working extra hard with the female and her socialization issues, fear is a dangerous thing in a dog and starting early with making the world a positive place will make her a safer dog for everyone's sake.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I have to admit, this is one of the few times I'm pro alter before adult hood! I know taking it all in can be difficult, but I'm very glad you're getting another crate! I think what's that's instituted, things WILL get much easier!


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

After they start to listen to you well, you need to socialize socialize socialize! The female is fearful becuase big trucks are loud and in her mind, might hurt her. Nearly all puppies go through this stage. And please, get both fixed. If you got them from a pet store (which will bring a whole new set of behavior issues if you aren't careful) they are not show or breeding quality and need to be fixed. Even some of the most responisble dog owners dogs can get out of site for 2 minutes (with a male dog and a nearby bitch in heat, it probably wouldn't even take that). We lost one of our dogs (an unfixed male) this way. We had no females so my parents saw no need to fix them. He ran off and never came back... If you fix them both, it makes things much easier.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

*Update*

well, today was the first time at 'puppy play hour'. and they wouldnt even play! lol. theyre crazy together at home, but were terrified of the other dogs. wouldnt even play with each other or me, but toward the end they did start to open up a tiny bit, and let the other pups close enough to sniff them at least. We'll go next weekend together also and then begin the alternate weekends alone if that goes well.
i ended up buying an ex-pen for him last night, as opposed to a crate because he's so tall, i had trouble finding a crate that would be small enough he'd want to 'hold it', but tall enough that he could stand comfortably in. all the tall ones are just way too big for his age, so i got the pen and this way i can open it up a bit as he grows. (ill be needing to replace her crate when she's a little bigger too, perhaps with another ex-pen).

right now, her crate is right next to the pen. for the past few days this week, ive been using the crate for both of them while im at work(alternating...one in the crate the first half, the other after my break at home)and they play together while im at home. so today will be the first day each in their own. there is a little crying at first, but they do settle down quickly when still visable to each other... in separate rooms is a bit more difficult. ive been trying the frozen kongs and various treats/bones, but they dont seem to hold their attention very long. so ill be shopping this week for some new, DURABLE(long-lasting) treats and toys.

there was only ONE accident in the house this week. he had been holding it til i came home on break and as soon as i opened the crate to take him outside, peed on the floor RIGHT outside the crate. but i'll take it. its a whole lot better than the last couple of weeks.

the cats are coming around, the older will take more time. but she will eventually see that theyre nothing to be afraid of. the other will still run away if they get too rowdy, but otherwise has no problem letting the pups sniff and lick her some (she does get a little more nervous and hisses a little when cornered tho, of course) and the puppies arent so very excited EVERY time they see the cats anymore either, so that helps..

i printed alot of the stickies Zim, and have been reading them during slow periods at work, practicing mostly in the early morning and after nightly walks (except the walking of course, is practiced DURING walks, lol).

but, for anyone who cares...they are doing well, and i think everything's going to work out just fine for all 3 of us together. (and the other 13 animal residents in my home  )
Thanks for the help and advice.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*big applause!*
Good job! Very happy things are going better!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

we do care. 

and its FANTASTIC to hear the update. it sounds like you are on the right path. 

with the playdates..just give'm time and let them adjust. the exposure to other dogs is VERY good for them and will help a lot in the long run with getting them to be less dependant on each other..it also can help a lot with fear issues if its a good atmosphere..

post of list of the toys you've tried and perhaps we can make some other suggestions. My dog is a toy serial killer of even the toughest toys so anything that you havent tried that has lasted with her might be a good bet.


YAY on the only one accident..i know that's a big







and a relief. 

if you got any questions about the stickies...post'm.  

i think you guys should be just fine.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Yep, we care.
I'm so glad you are making progress! Keep up the good work...click/treat for YOU!!


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

with the toys, its not so much that they destroy them quickly, they just seem to lose interest in everything as soon as they realize theyre alone.
they have ropes, and plush toys (which they seem to prefer over any other), a number of nylabones (i dont like rawhide for them), and he loves his squeaky tennis ball (wont play catch tho, just likes to hold it and make it squeak).

i tried putting them back into their crates this morning after letting them out to pee (one at a time, not together), so i could lay down for about an hour...nope, wouldnt have it. theyve been crying the WHOLE time. they did stop for a few seconds in between, to see if i was coming down the hall i think. now, i know i shouldnt let them out if theyre crying, right? well, they scream and bark non stop this morning. i know they had to pee the first time, but am i supposed to command that they sit quietly before opening the door, or just wait it out til they do it on their own?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CagedAnimal said:


> with the toys, its not so much that they destroy them quickly, they just seem to lose interest in everything as soon as they realize theyre alone.
> they have ropes, and plush toys (which they seem to prefer over any other), a number of nylabones (i dont like rawhide for them), and he loves his squeaky tennis ball (wont play catch tho, just likes to hold it and make it squeak).


That's how my dog is. He will happily chew on his Kong and toss it around the room for an hour if I'm home (I don't need to be interacting with him, just present) but I know he doesn't chew it at all during my workday because the peanut butter inside is basically untouched. But he is never destructive and he always has the option of a few toys, so I figure it is fine. If they aren't being destructive when they are alone, then don't worry about it.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

...but i need to find something(or a combination of things) thats going to hold their attention for a while when i take the other pup out of the room and keep them from screaming and struggling.
for the one i have with me, i can talk to and give treats, but i cant be back and forth trying to do that for both of them at the same time. ive been trying the kong with various stuffings, and they always have different toys laying around and in their crates.. they take it and ly down, but then a few seconds after they are apart, whoever is left in the room starts barking and crying, and this causes the one im trying to work with to react in the same way.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

http://www.bustercube.com/


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> http://www.bustercube.com/


Yes.

And perhaps some of these.

If they eat kibble, feed them their meals (maybe one meal a day) in these food-dispensing toys. Excellent mental and physical stimulation (some of these give my dog a great workout, really, especially her shoulders, if you can believe that). I've got three of four and another being shipped to me. Use a different one each day. Perhaps try separating them with a baby gate while they eat.. so they can still see each other, but be somewhat separated (and their food won't get mixed up).

Or, better yet, give one his dinner while you train the other in a separate room.. and vice versa. They will learn that they get to eat dinner or train with extra yummy treats (see if you can find these any where, they're good for the dog and extremely yummy) while they are separated from each other, thus making separation a GOOD thing.

This is completely doable with a little bit of time and a few small purchases to make things go easier.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Have you tried raw marrow bones?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

melgrj7 said:


> Have you tried raw marrow bones?


another good suggestion definatly. a package of soup bones at my grocery store is 2 dollars for 6 pieces.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> another good suggestion definatly. a package of soup bones at my grocery store is 2 dollars for 6 pieces.


Yeah same here, they are nice and cheap! If they do end up liking them a lot, only give them to them when they are separated and only then. When you come back into the room with the other pup, take the bone away.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

melgrj7 said:


> Yeah same here, they are nice and cheap! If they do end up liking them a lot, only give them to them when they are separated and only then. When you come back into the room with the other pup, take the bone away.


or with WHATEVER they like the best. keep note of the things they like the most and as Mel says..only give those items when they are apart..


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Excellent progress. The play date socilizaton may take 3 - 4 times, but keep it up, and they'll learn that the world is a safe place and that everyone wants to play... And, by the time they learn otherwise, they'll be more mature. This type of play reduces or eliminates dog aggression. 

BTW, if they nip any people (in play), now is the time to train for Bite Inhibition.

They have too many toys. Give them 3 - 4 toys, a week, and put the others away, and then cycle the toys. That may help. A kong filled with kibble and peanut butter should help distract one, while you work the other. Another toy is the Buster Cube, but it may be a distraction while you work with one... try it, anyway ?

Yes, They are old enough to understand Sit, and nothing in life is free (NILIF). So, they should be sit patiently (if not calmly & quietly) at every door, gate, entry, portal, feeding, etc. It may take about 4 months to get this working well, but it is very much worth the patience. So, when you are ready to let them out, ask them to sit, first. And close the gate, if they bolt, before you release them... they must sit AND stay.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

they dont really have that many toys INSIDE the crate. only 2 or three at a time plus a kong.
they are now about 2 feet apart in their crates, but she HATES it. ive had to put a couple of boxes along the side of his playpen, otherwise ive found that he can move it over closer to her when he jumps on the sides, i think the boxes are limiting her visability of him when they lay down. she seems to only be quiet when i walk in the room now (because quiet gets her out of the crate, i think) but when i leave the room, or when they hear me come home from work, she starts up again. should i just not even go into the room if she's not quiet? even when i KNOW its about time to be going outside? i dont want to force them to pee inside because theyre barking or crying.
and he's quiet UNTIL i walk in the room, when the excitement takes over and he starts jumping up and down barking to come out (but i dont open the door for him until he's sitting).


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

My GSD does the same thing your male does. He's fine until I get home and walk in, then he gets ALL sorts of excited. I can make him sit and he will, but he's still very excited and sometimes barking. I go about my day and sometimes just sit next to the crate looking away and ignoring him until he's calm. I'll unlatch it, and if he starts freaking out again, I sit down and hold it closed but wait for him to be completely calm, then open it and release him.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

perhaps work on teaching them "down" IN the crate? then you come in, tell them both to down and stay before letting them out..


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

If you persist with Sit, they should learn excited patience (which is OK) in a week or two.

Different tack - When you have things under control, it might be cool to put the crate moving behavior on cue 

If you put it on cue, now ... you might do like they do with barking - teach the dog to bark on cue, then never give the cue.... but the self-reward can sometimes defeat the effort.


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## jess4525 (Aug 27, 2009)

I give my dog bully sticks to chew on. 

He loves them and they keep him occupied for a while.


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## CagedAnimal (May 30, 2010)

they love these peppermint 'booda bones'. but they cant have them anymore.  it got down to just the rounded part on the end and was stuck to the roof of his mouth today. i heard him gagging and had to pry it away from him.

i got a bustercube and tried it with him today. he couldnt seem to work it. i had it on the easiest setting, and rolled it a few times to show him and he was pushing it around ok so i took Loca downstairs (who was crying in the hallway to get into the room). and almost as soon as i closed the door behind me i could hear him jumping on the door and crying upstairs.

but now they jump all over me. i cant sit down without it happening, or get up for that matter. and anytime i have ANYTHING in my hands, they jump and try to grab it away, if i dont even have anything, they snip at my fingers. i know im supposed to just ignore it and if possible leave the room (which isnt really) but theyre each 30 pounds of dog launching itself off the bed at me, is not easily ignored and my apartment is for the most part very open, not many rooms or doors.

and jumping on the counters (only when im trying to cook or clean up there, they dont do it if im not at the counter).
i want to reward them when they get down, but i dont want them seeing that treats come from up there either... or that if they jump up and then get down a treat is coming? (when i have them in my pockets, they try to chew them out.) which is why until very recently, i was mostly using verbal praise and petting as reward for most things except 'pottying' outside.

we've been working on walking separately too, but walking with treats is just as bad. only instead of pulling, theyre jumping all over me or mouthing to get the treat out of my hand/pocket/pouch/whatever. and im not even using anything special, just their regular dry food. if she cant get it from me, she just sits down, when i tell her to 'come on' she bites at my hand again.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

I think it may be time to find a trainer to help you out.

Glad you are still sticking it out and trying though


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

CagedAnimal said:


> they love these peppermint 'booda bones'. but they cant have them anymore.  it got down to just the rounded part on the end and was stuck to the roof of his mouth today. i heard him gagging and had to pry it away from him.
> 
> i got a bustercube and tried it with him today. he couldnt seem to work it. i had it on the easiest setting, and rolled it a few times to show him and he was pushing it around ok so i took Loca downstairs (who was crying in the hallway to get into the room). and almost as soon as i closed the door behind me i could hear him jumping on the door and crying upstairs.



toys and chews are kind of a trial and error thing. you just have to experiment to find what works. 

as for the crying at the door and whatnot...how long does it take before either of them quiet down? is there anyway you can monitor this?

because you may have to get sneaky..like put a phone in there mid call to your cellphone on mute so that when you take one for a brief walk you can monitor when the one left behind quiets down. then when they do..unmute and praise. 



> but now they jump all over me. i cant sit down without it happening, or get up for that matter. and anytime i have ANYTHING in my hands, they jump and try to grab it away, if i dont even have anything, they snip at my fingers. i know im supposed to just ignore it and if possible leave the room (which isnt really) but theyre each 30 pounds of dog launching itself off the bed at me, is not easily ignored and my apartment is for the most part very open, not many rooms or doors.


if they jump..separate them both from each other and from you. i know that you said that your apartment isnt really designed for it but with this sort of thing you often have to get sneaky and creative...do you have two crates yet? because if you do..crate them separately and throw a blanket over each crate. dont do it in a punishing way. be neutral about it. 



> and jumping on the counters (only when im trying to cook or clean up there, they dont do it if im not at the counter).
> i want to reward them when they get down, but i dont want them seeing that treats come from up there either... or that if they jump up and then get down a treat is coming? (when i have them in my pockets, they try to chew them out.) which is why until very recently, i was mostly using verbal praise and petting as reward for most things except 'pottying' outside.


sounds like you have some prime candidates for tug rewards. keep a rope toy on you..instead of treats.



> we've been working on walking separately too, but walking with treats is just as bad. only instead of pulling, theyre jumping all over me or mouthing to get the treat out of my hand/pocket/pouch/whatever. and im not even using anything special, just their regular dry food. if she cant get it from me, she just sits down, when i tell her to 'come on' she bites at my hand again.


what i do for dogs like this and walking is to get some plain jerky and hold it in my mouth. bite off a piece and reward as needed. and this is going to sound weird..but my dog likes it TEN TIMES as much if it came out of my mouth. you know how dogs are about gross stuff lol...make the pieces very very small though


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

You're close, but the two of them are ganging up on you. I agree with Tankstar that you might try to find a trainer to come out to the house to observe and provide a little extra guidance.


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