# Dog gets aggro with very submissive dogs



## padillac (Jan 29, 2009)

I recently adopted a ~2yo rhodesian ridgeback/lab mix. He's 80 pounds, neutered, and when it comes to people, incredibly sweet (such a lap dog...he must think he's a chihuahua).

When I first asked about him, the rescuer told me that he was normally good with other dogs, but "plays rough." She had had him for a few months, but now that her rottweiler was back at the house, those two weren't getting along and so it became important to find a home for Buddy quickly.

He definitely plays rough. Sometimes it's not a problem, sometimes it is. He'll play with another dog until he loses interest, or if the other dog tells him he crossed a line he'll *usually* go find something else to do.

The weird thing is that if he plays with another dog and that dog gets really submissive, like they just kind of give up and roll over onto their backs, Buddy will turn up the aggression, nipping at the submissive dog's neck. He never growls or barks during this. I've noticed that he drools a LOT more when he does this.

He's shown this weird aggression towards submissive dogs twice now...the first time was at a dog park, it was the first (and only, so far) time I had taken him there. He just ran around and played with dogs fine for about 10 minutes, before getting aggro with a smaller dog that didn't want to play anymore. I gave him a timeout, then he played for a while more, went aggro with a different dog that didn't want to play, and then I ejected him for bad behavior.

The second time was just now when we were down at the beach...we were alone for a while and he was just running around, and after 10 minutes of that a lab pup showed up. They played for a little bit, and then the pup went submissive and Buddy went aggro. At this point I just put Buddy back on his leash and left.

A weird twist in all this is that I left him at a doggy hotel once when I went out of town for a few days, and when I picked him up they said he was a total sweetheart and was great with the other dogs. Their office is closed now, but I'm going to call them tomorrow morning to ask them some questions about how he behaved when he was there.

So...not sure what to do. He's wonderful with people. Plays rough, but gets DA with very submissive dogs. He's a rhodey so he needs LOTS of exercise, and I try to give it to him...best way is to run free in the little cove by my house. But I'll need to put him on leash when other dogs show up now, I'm not going to let him go aggro on a tired dog again. We're not going to the dog park until we get this sorted out of course...do you have suggestions? He wants to run, and he wants to play, and I want so badly to let him but not unless he behaves.


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## KelliCZ (Aug 1, 2008)

I'm interested in this as well - My 18 month old neutered Dobe is the same way


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

First, lets make sure you are actually seeing play instead of bully behavior or poor socialization skills from Buddy. Good play always involves role reversals...chaser then chasee, on top then on bottom; in good play you should see Buddy literally bouncing up and down during interactions; good play also has play bows...invitation to play by Buddy.
Are you seeing these things from Buddy?


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## padillac (Jan 29, 2009)

TooneyDogs said:


> First, lets make sure you are actually seeing play instead of bully behavior or poor socialization skills from Buddy. Good play always involves role reversals...chaser then chasee, on top then on bottom; in good play you should see Buddy literally bouncing up and down during interactions; good play also has play bows...invitation to play by Buddy.
> Are you seeing these things from Buddy?


Everything but on top then on bottom. I'm not sure I've ever seen him take a bottom position when playing with other dogs. I can't say for certain though, since I haven't really looked for it. I will watch out for that in the future.

He definitely play bows. I've also seen him do the chaser/chasee thing...in fact, when he first starts to play he's usually the chasee. Both times he's gotten too rough though, he started chasing the other dog to the point where it didn't want to play anymore, rolled over onto his back, and then he started jabbing at the neck.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Sounds fairly normal then. The one thing you'll want to do is tire him out before going to the park. The park should not be his main outlet for the energy. You mentioned alot of exercise and you're right....he needs about 15 miles a day in a combination of running and troting. Mental exercise is also very tiring so you can work that in on the days you can't get out running.
As for the jabbing at the neck....dogs practice the life skills of take-downs, leg 'bites' and 'kills' (neck jab/belly bites). We always want to carefully watch to be sure it doesn't go over the top. When you see your dog getting a little too hyper call for a break and work on calmness.


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## padillac (Jan 29, 2009)

TooneyDogs said:


> Sounds fairly normal then. The one thing you'll want to do is tire him out before going to the park. The park should not be his main outlet for the energy. You mentioned alot of exercise and you're right....he needs about 15 miles a day in a combination of running and troting. Mental exercise is also very tiring so you can work that in on the days you can't get out running.
> As for the jabbing at the neck....dogs practice the life skills of take-downs, leg 'bites' and 'kills' (neck jab/belly bites). We always want to carefully watch to be sure it doesn't go over the top. When you see your dog getting a little too hyper call for a break and work on calmness.


Thank you. That's very interesting about the practicing life skills thing...I imagine that being part breed that chases lions, he's naturally keen on practicing more than some other dogs.

How do I judge when he's "a little too hyper?" I'm sure it takes some experience but are there things I should watch out for? I'm not sure at what point I should jump in.

I think that after I do give him a timeout, instead of just leaving I'll put him on his leash, take him to an empty area and work on obedience. This would help him learn I'm still in control at the dog park, it's a safe place where he and I can spend time together, as well as being a source of lots of new playmates.

So the last question I have is what (if anything) to say to the other owners. Each time I've felt embarrassed, or nervous they'll say I have a mean dog and shouldn't have brought him there. Do I have any reason to apologize? Or do I give him his timeout, cheerfully say he's excitable and we're working on it, and then go about our business? (Upon reading over that, the latter sounds far preferable. So as long as I don't have any reason to be embarrassed/apologetic...)

ah the other thing is, I mentioned that he drools a lot more when he starts neck biting. Is that anything to worry about? Sounds like it might just be something that comes naturally when he's practicing kills?

another question...we talk about dogs being "rude" sometimes, like if they use a rude tone when barking while playing. Well is this rude behavior on his part? Part of me thinks that this is where the term "play with the big dogs" might have come from, that if another dog wants to play, and is taken down he'll get the play bites/kills.

What if after I give him a timeout, he tracks down the exact same dog and does it again? Is that aggressive behavior or does he just want to "finish what they started?"


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Good socialization skills play a huge part in all of this. Buddy hasn't learned to back off when the other dogs send clear signals that they've had enough or it's too rough. It would be great if you could find a couple of well socialized role model dogs that could show Buddy the ropes. 
As for the "little too hyper" body language....you're looking for some self-restraint...not lunging in and out so forceably, not pouncing up and down on a submissive dog, backing off when the other dog says Enough.
Look at the other dog...if the ears are flattened against the skull and/or they lower their body toward the ground, that dog is scared. Call Buddy off immediately. If he goes right back to that same dog watch carefully.....does it look more like bully behavior or play? If it's play, Buddy should be approaching with much more restaint the 2nd time...almost in an appeasment manner.


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## padillac (Jan 29, 2009)

Thank you very much for the thoughts, TooneyDogs. I'll start introducing him to these play situations a bit more slowly, and report back with our progress  Thanks again


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