# Is it normal for basic obedience class to be a disaster? [rant]



## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

…Or am I just in a bad class?

It seems like every week I go to class saturday morning, and then afterwards hate training so much that I can’t bring myself to say “sit” until monday. The class seems so disorganized, there’s no rigid structure like “explain exercise - everyone practice and I’ll come watch everyone do a rep one by one and help you”. There’s no formal “work on this for next week”. There’s no checking of progress from last week. 

Its more like… the instructor just talks, and you kind of have to practice whatever she’s talking about while she’s talking about it, without really being given a cue of what to do when. She never stops talking, never points out something you’re doing well, and only points out something you’re doing poorly and then its not in the moment of telling you how to fix it, its a general lecture of how to approach fixing it… And the moment where you needed to fix it is long gone.

We’re not told what we’ll be doing next week and what to prepare for. We’re not told what equipment to bring. As a result we’re vastly unprepared when she asks us to do an exercise - i.e. one week we’re explained how to lure dog onto a platform. Following week we’re told to stand 10 feet away from the platform and send the dog to the platform, tell him to sit, stay once he gets on it, approach him to give the cookie, then back up to original position and do a recall. 

Like, what?!? At home we’re still on the fading the lure stage of getting onto the platform… sending from 10 feet away, with a sit-stay-come with distractions? What? Is that normal level of progression without even being told what to work towards?

After 3 emails back and forth I finally managed to weasel out of the instructor what we should be preparing for for next class… Heeling! Fast - normal - slow! PAST OTHER DOGS! What? Two weeks ago we started getting into heel position. Last week was the first time we practiced any actual movement in heel (with disastrous results, as you can expect). Next week we’re going to be doing speed changes and distractions? I couldn’t even keep Porsche interested in the piece of meat i was holding to her nose while we were trying to walk in heel position far, far away from other dogs. Like, what?

So everything is always a disaster. And then the trainer’s like “okay, now take out your toy and do a play break with your dogs”. And half the class is like “what toy… we didn’t know to bring a toy…” and my dog still doesn’t think play is rewarding, for her the toy is yet another exercise, not a break from one. So I stood there, looking like an idiot, trying to engage her in personal play while all she wanted to do was sniff around and watch the other dogs. 

All the dogs in that class (except a corgi puppy) are adults, so maybe she’s expecting us all to have prior training and progress faster or something? 

Is this normal speed of progression for basic obedience?

Is it normal to leave every class wanting to never do another training session ever again?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

No. That's not normal.

The thing is, being good at training dogs doesn't necessarily make you good at communicating that to other people. So you'll see varying levels of skill in class instructors, even though they may all be equally skilled dog trainers.

I'd ask for my money back for the remaining sessions and try again with another instructor.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

And I mean, classes are outdoors, in a park/school parking lot, so lots of distractions are everywhere. And the trainer insists on having a lot of space between dogs, which makes her have to yell and I end up straining to hear what she's saying. 

Its just... frustrating. :\ We only have two sessions left (out of 5), so I think I'll just stick it out, but honestly that class just takes the little that was fun about training out of it. Trainer came highly recommended, too...


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

As a personal trainer, in a one-on-one setting, she might be great. Like I said, being good at one thing doesn't necessarily make you good at another, related thing.

The outside thing clinched it for me. Maybe advanced obedience could be taught in that environment, but not beginner.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> As a personal trainer, in a one-on-one setting, she might be great. Like I said, being good at one thing doesn't necessarily make you good at another, related thing.


Yeah. Her own sheltie that she brings to class to demonstrate with is incredibly well trained and a happy, hyper and focused dog. They make it look so easy...



> Following week we’re told to stand 10 feet away from the platform and send the dog to the platform, tell him to sit, stay once he gets on it, approach him to give the cookie, then back up to original position and do a recall.


We surprisingly did well on this lol... The only place I cheated was I walked up with her to the platform, to the same distance as we've been practicing with it at home, then the rest of the stuff (sit, stay, backup, then come) was fine as I'd been practicing that on my own at home. But my blood was boiling the whole time at the unfairness of being asking to do this exercise at all.

I don't have a clue how the other people in the class are doing lol. I haven't watched anyone else, mostly just focused on Porsche and trying to catch what trainer is talking about.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Yeah, that doesn't seem normal to me. Don't let it put you off of taking classes in the future, though. Classes can be hit or miss. It's frustrating, but you learn how to decipher the good from bad along the way.

For example, I wanted to start agility training with Nova, but only one class was available to me at that time in my area with a time that worked with my work schedule. So we took it. It was fun, but I feel like we missed a lot of key steps. I also feel like the instructor was there to work with her own dog and socialize with the other people that also worked there (they also took the class...and were the majority of the students).

So we are taking our next agility class at another facility. I really did my research this time (talked to the trainer, talked to others who have taken it, etc.), and I know this class will be a good one for us. But if not, we will have fun, learn what we can from it, and then move along.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Yeah, definitely taking this as a learning experience of what to watch out for. I am taking an agility class with a different trainer - and I first did a one-time try out lesson with her to see if we like it. I think I'll do that for every class from now on. 

If I'd gone to the first class of my obedience as a trial, without a commitment, I would not have continued for sure.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Alla said:


> I first did a one-time try out lesson with her to see if we like it. I think I'll do that for every class from now on.


That's a really great idea. I've never done that, but I'm adding it to my list how-to-pick-a-good-class


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

No, that's not normal. It is normal for classes not to go very well, and for you to come away frustrated, but not for the instructor to be so all over the place and incompetent. Usually it's just us students who feel incompetent after classes. lol

One thing to remember though is that they don't expect you to get everything as fast as they introduce it. Some dogs will be more advanced, some will be less. I took one particular class 3 times with Watson and got something out of it every time. The first few times he just wasn't ready for that level of distraction and I was always making it easier for him, or moving him to the other end of the room where he was less distracted. The instructor has to assume with adult dogs that they might have different base levels of skill.

Still doesn't excuse the class being completely unorganized, and her expecting you to have equipment without telling you to bring it.

I would try again with another class, with an instructor who has their own facility. For one it's very hard to do a basic level class outdoors. I'm training privately with someone and only on our fourth lesson will we be outside at a park. We are only meeting every other week, and he's giving me a ton of stuff to work on, so it's basically only after 8 weeks of focused one-on-one work that we are moving outside, and this is with a trained dog with 2.5 years of classes under his belt! You and Porsche will be much more successful indoors in a controlled environment. 

Also, it speaks to the level of competence of the trainer that they are either successful enough to rent/own their own facility, or that they are good enough that the person who does own the facility was willing to hire them. Someone conducting classes out of a park could be anyone with any level of experience and teaching ability and it's so hard to judge. Not that everyone with their own facility is going to be good, but at least it's something.

ETA: Going to a trial lesson with a new instructor is absolutely a great idea!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Personally, I don't think a 5 week session is long enough for a general obedience course. Maybe for one that specializes in developing or honing a single particular skill, for example heeling or distraction proofing, but for the standard combination "attention-sit-down-stand-stay-llw-recall" type of course 8 to 10 weeks is needed just to begin to set some foundations. Otherwise there's way too much info to cram into too little time, and too much potential for handlers and dogs to leave with a feeling of being overwhelmed.

I'm also baffled that there are no weekly hand out sheets. But I guess if you're training in a parking lot I probably wouldn't expect them to have a copier/printer lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

...I've never had a handout in a training class. I didn't even know that was a thing.

Homework, organization, and not insanely jumping criteria, yes, certainly, but not handouts.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I think it would definitely help if you're trying to compress 10 weeks of learning into 5. That's all. 

But you're right I've been to many classes that didn't have handouts. However, instructions were always very clear and unambiguous for everyone. Some people even took notes on their own.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I taught for a Community Education group once. They told me that I would be holding classes in the bus garage. The didn't tell me that they were only going to back out one bus... Or that the floor would be full of the sand they use to soak up oil spills. My indoor space was so repulsive that I held my 6 week class outside... It was a wreck. 6 weeks isn't enough time and training outdoors is rough. I couldn't do a good job. My students couldn't do a good job. What a total mess. The only good thing was that the fee was super low and the people who were working hard did pretty well. I didn't go back to teach.

Do the best you can, but whenever possible, watch a class before paying for it, just like you said. Sorry for the bad experience. 

I try to take a couple of basic obedience classes whenever I get a new dog, just to see how they do in the environment. With my last dog, I had to pass on 3 class settings before I found one I could live with. No point in traumatizing a dog in the name of training. It can be really hard to find good groups to work with.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I've been taking classes for a relatively short period of time and have had some less than pleasant experiences, but never anything like you've described. In general, a good class should have identified learning objectives (for the class as a whole and each session), demonstrations and/or explanations of skills, a clear plan for guiding learners from beginning skills to final skills, opportunities for individual practice and critique, and guidelines for practice outside of class. I'd also expect the instructor to be able to provide a brief overview of learning theory as it applies to the class; offer individualized or alternative approaches as needed; explanations of why or when skills will be needed; and, as common courtesy, notices about necessary equipment, schedule changes, and similar things.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea no, not normal, and I can see why you're frustrated. I would be too!

Most of the classes we've done go like you said; Instructor explains thing, demonstrates thing with her own dog (maybe shows a couple different approaches), asks us to try the thing, either walks around to give individual feedback or watches over everyone overall and offers feedback/pointers where relevant. 

Sometimes we get a paper handout, other times we will get emailed the course outline. So they wont always go over what is coming up next week in class, but if you want to reference the outline to be prepared you can.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

As far as handouts go, I haven't had them in most classes, but we did have them in basic obedience classes where it was assumed many dogs had no prior training.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Sure, we have handouts. Fat load of good they do lol, if I needed theory there's google for that. 

I'm not even sure the trainer knows our names or our dogs' names. We're only ever referred to by the breeds of our dogs, as "your shepherd" or "the corgi". It doesn't sound rude, just... impersonal. Its probably normal for a trainer not to cuddle with the dogs in class, but she's always been extra careful to never approach our dogs anywhere within a distance where they could sniff her. 

But yeah even talking to her frustrates me. :\ I've been asking her questions over email, for example, if she had any suggestions of how to better motivate my dog during heeling, since my current treats aren't overpowering the distractions and it'll only get worse with speed changes and heeling past other dogs next week. She responded with telling me to try to use a toy or a ball, or feed her her regular food in training instead of from her bowl, and make sure she's hungry for class. 

ARRRG. This is the same dog that you spent an hour with a few weeks ago trying to pair food with toy so as to get -any- attention on the toy at all. And now I'm supposed to magically use the toy as a better reward than food? When I stated in my previous email that we're still on the level where she will only grab the toy for a treat in the first place?

I already feed some of her meals during training. Not sure what that has to do with class. And she is hungry for class. As hungry as I'm comfortable with making her. 



> In general, a good class should have identified learning objectives (for the class as a whole and each session)


LOL no.



> demonstrations and/or explanations of skills


We get this, yes. Maybe even too much demonstration.



> a clear plan for guiding learners from beginning skills to final skills


That would require there being “final skills” in the first place…



> opportunities for individual practice and critique


There are some. Not as structured or as timely as I would have liked though. 



> guidelines for practice outside of class


Nope lol.



> I'd also expect the instructor to be able to provide a brief overview of learning theory as it applies to the class


Yeah we get this for sure.



> offer individualized or alternative approaches as needed


Ummm… sort of? Sometimes? Can’t think of an example though…



> explanations of why or when skills will be needed


Yep, we get this, maybe even too much. There’s only so many times I need to hear about how horrible it is for strange dogs and people to enter your dog’s space, or to allow your dog to enter others’ space...



> and, as common courtesy, notices about necessary equipment, schedule changes, and similar things.


Yeah, that would be nice, wouldn’t it? 



> Personally, I don't think a 5 week session is long enough for a general obedience course. Maybe for one that specializes in developing or honing a single particular skill, for example heeling or distraction proofing, but for the standard combination "attention-sit-down-stand-stay-llw-recall" type of course 8 to 10 weeks is needed just to begin to set some foundations. Otherwise there's way too much info to cram into too little time, and too much potential for handlers and dogs to leave with a feeling of being overwhelmed.


Yeah, I think its a case of “you get what you pay for”. This class was only $150 for 5 weeks, as opposed to $240-$260 for 6 weeks that everyone else was charging. I figured since Porsche kinda knows most of the basic commands already, we’d be fine with both outside and with losing one week. Only puppy classes (dogs under 4 months) here are offered for 8-10 weeks. 

We didn’t do any formal kind of attention command. 
Sit was skipped because everyone knew it. 
Down was only touched upon last class (session 3), when she asked everyone to down, and then chewed us out for our dogs first sitting then lying down instead of going straight down from a stand. Porsche was already sitting when I gave the down gesture so rawr. Then I did about 6 reps of down from stand while the trainer was chewing us out, but I don’t think she saw any of them - at least she didn’t acknowledge it. 
Stand wasn’t touched upon.
Stay was explained heavily, that’s the whole point of using the platforms, but we don’t actually get to practice much of it. 
LLW wasn’t touched upon.
Recall has been explained a lot, yes. We’ve been recalling off the platform for two weeks. Or, rather, I’ve only been doing it for one week (in class) since the first week I kept actually waiting for her to tell us “okay, now practice” and she never did, just went to a different exercise… I did see other people practicing while she was explaining though, so they did get some practice lol.

We have touched heeling, both getting into heel position and actually walking in heel. Lots of platform stuff (with insanely jumping criteria, cause you know, fun). Plenty of demonstrations of skills we never got to try, like leave it, retrieve, hold, drop it, barking inhibition.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Also for the record, here the standard for a basic obedience or puppy class is 6 weeks for +-$160. I've never seen a class go beyond 6 weeks, actually.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think this trainer sounds awful, but I do want to address this:



> she's always been extra careful to never approach our dogs anywhere within a distance where they could sniff her.


This is fairly normal, IME. Trainers I've had do use class dogs for demos, with permission from the owner which means at those times they are close to her. Otherwise, there is no physical closeness at all between the trainers I've used and student's dogs. In fact, if the dogs approached the trainer or tried to instigate interaction (on leash while the owner was talking to the trainer or going over during off leash exercise) the trainers would turn their back or side and fold their arms and utterly ignore the dog. That's a good thing. You don't want your dog visiting and being social while they're 'working' and you want their attention on you. Especially if you're ever going to be competing, anywhere. 

I don't know if your trainer is giving off a vibe of being uncomfortable or disinterested something but zero interaction (aside from the odd demo with a dog) is normal. There isn't any interaction between people and OTHER people's dogs, or dogs between each other, either. Everyone gets lots and lots of space.

"Make the dog work for all its food" is also fairly standard advice for building food drive in the dog. 

The rest just sounds...ridiculous to me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Honestly, it sounds like she knows what she wants to teach and she knows what to cover, but she's just not doing it in a way that makes it easy to learn or follow. It's hard to tell how bad she really is from your description - it could just be that her teaching style is not a good fit with your style and she grates on you. It could be that for someone with more training experience (not on their first dog) wouldn't have a problem following her disorganized lessons, I have worked with trainers who were not necessarily bad, but their personality just did not fit with mine and it didn't work out. There's nothing wrong with that. I've worked with some who were much more organized than others, and some that were just kind of ad hoc and fairly random.

It also sounds like she knows the generic answers to give for your questions (about how to motivate a dog for heeling) but doesn't have any great insights to your specific situation. IME this is the hallmark of a new trainer who has had limited practical experience. Her suggestions are the same thing I would suggest though - use better treats, use a toy (for dogs who like toys, and she probably doesn't remember that yours doesn't), or increase food drive by making the dog work for every meal. Motivation for heeling is a complex problem.

As far as homework outside of class, it sounds like she is assuming that you will all continue to work on what you did in class, as well as the things she's demonstrated but did not let you practice. It would be helpful if she would have defined objectives and summarize them at the end of class, like "this week I expect you to work on down, recalls, and leave it" or something like that.

I'm surprised at how much classes cost. How many places have you looked? I'm in a pretty expensive area and $165 is pretty typical for a 6 week class anywhere we have trained. Unless you're in a major metro area like NYC or DC, $240 is crazy. I also haven't seen a basic obedience class go longer than 6 weeks. Typically there are 2-3 levels of classes and they expect you to take all of them, which is 12-18 weeks total, but I haven't seen a single class go for longer than 6 weeks (except those that are more go at your own pace and do your own work, like rally or competition obedience).


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> This is fairly normal, IME. Trainers I've had do use class dogs for demos, with permission from the owner which means at those times they are close to her. Otherwise, there is no physical closeness at all between the trainers I've used and student's dogs. In fact, if the dogs approached the trainer or tried to instigate interaction (on leash while the owner was talking to the trainer or going over during off leash exercise) the trainers would turn their back or side and fold their arms and utterly ignore the dog. That's a good thing. You don't want your dog visiting and being social while they're 'working' and you want their attention on you. Especially if you're ever going to be competing, anywhere.


The only time she used a class dog for demonstration (instead of her perfectly schooled Sheltie) was when "teaching" us how to use a flirt pole to play. She used the only puppy in the class, a corgi. Cause, you know, puppies are so hard to incite to play. I called her out on it, because I had asked her prior to class if she could help me teach my dog to play. She told me to stay back after class, and we did work on food pairing with a toy privately. That was great. 

That was the only time a class dog was used for a demo. I would have loved to watch a demo of a person who knows what they're doing (trainer) with a green dog, how she corrects mistakes, builds attention in the moment, etc. But I also get why instead we get to watch her sheltie execute every verbal command perfectly, enthusiastically, and immediately.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> The only time she used a class dog for demonstration (instead of her perfectly schooled Sheltie) was when "teaching" us how to use a flirt pole to play. She used the only puppy in the class, a corgi. Cause, you know, puppies are so hard to incite to play. I called her out on it, because I had asked her prior to class if she could help me teach my dog to play. She told me to stay back after class, and we did work on food pairing with a toy privately. That was great.
> 
> That was the only time a class dog was used for a demo. I would have loved to watch a demo of a person who knows what they're doing (trainer) with a green dog, how she corrects mistakes, builds attention in the moment, etc. But I also get why instead we get to watch her sheltie execute every verbal command perfectly, enthusiastically, and immediately.


IME, using class dogs for demos is fairly rare. Some trainers do it more than others, but more often they will ask an owner and dog to demo something while they watch and provide help. Usually those demos are the week after the subject has been introduced, so they can pick someone who has a decent handle of it, but is probably still making mistakes which would be helpful for the whole class to see.

Lots of dogs are unsure about working with a stranger and it's not a helpful demo if the dog just wants to go back to his mom. I can only think of a couple occasions when the instructor used a class dog to demo, and it was usually a dog the instructor knew well from multiple classes and knew the dog would be comfortable working with her.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, the demo dogs are used only for showing mechanics and for maybe one rep, to illustrate how things are done. MOST classes I've been in, the trainer doesn't even have their own dog there. It's about showing mechanics, anything like correcting mistakes you're making are mentioned after the entire class has been observed giving it a go and the correction/extra information is addressed to the whole class. Anything more specific, you need to take straight to the trainer or work through it yourself. It's about showing how it's done, not necessarily getting results on your dog. 

And I think maybe that's sort of where this class is at? I mean she sounds distracted, disorganized, hard to approach and maybe inexperienced (and definitely annoying), but it does sound sort of like some of the specific things you're talking about wanting I don't see in classes, either. I think you'd get more instruction on HOW to train, deal with mistakes, build and handle drive, timing and so on in an actual puppy-K class (adult dogs are allowed) where the emphasis is on teaching the people to train in general, maybe. More demos, more info, more theory and a lot more laid back and friendly.

Instead of just... presenting the material and assuming you can and will work the rest out yourself, unless you hit a major snag and then will offer brief advice and move on. 

*ETA:* Also Elrohwen is right: it's rare. It's usually seconds long, happens once or twice in an entire course (if it happens at all) and almost always with a dog the trainer knows well or who is just effusively in love with the trainer's cheese.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Honestly, it sounds like she knows what she wants to teach and she knows what to cover, but she's just not doing it in a way that makes it easy to learn or follow.


Exactly. Our styles just don't mesh. I'm not getting what I expected out of the class - it is actually hindering me because I spend the weekend recovering from class instead of actively training. 

She knows what she's doing, for sure. Bazillions of titles on dogs, mostly Shelties and BCs, for everything under the sun. She's been training and teaching for 40 years, so its not lack of experience. Just stylistic differences. 

I need very precise instructions, like a horse riding lesson. She's much more ad hoc than I would like her to be.

I'm in Canada, and yes I'm in a major metro area. There's lots of places around here, but they're all expensive.  My intro to agility class is cheap actually, its only $210 for 6 weeks. That's the cheapest place I've found next to my current trainer, but they only do agility and puppy class for under 4 months dogs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

For very precise instruction, I think you're going to have to go to private lessons, to be honest with you. You may find some group classes that are more to your taste, but you're probably not going to find that kind of precision and attention to detail (and personalized attention) in most group settings. I mean you'll find organization and more clear objectives and handouts and people who give you precise homework and feedback and better personalities. 

But probably not a lot of individualized feedback and instruction. 

At least, IME.

I DO think you should keep doing group classes or plan on doing them again, though, for the distraction work if nothing else. I just think you'll be more confident and able to handle them better when you're not feeling the need to rely on/follow them quite so much and just treat them as a place to go, get some material to work on, and see how your dog handles the environment and distraction.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> It's about showing mechanics, anything like correcting mistakes you're making are mentioned after the entire class has been observed giving it a go and the correction/extra information is addressed to the whole class.


Yeah this is basically exactly how it goes. Except not after, but during. So you have to both practice with your dog and also watch/listen to the instructor at the same time. Or, I mean, you can stop to watch and listen, but then you only get like 1 rep in.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> For very precise instruction, I think you're going to have to go to private lessons, to be honest with you. You may find some group classes that are more to your taste, but you're probably not going to find that kind of precision and attention to detail (and personalized attention) in most group settings. I mean you'll find organization and more clear objectives and handouts and people who give you precise homework and feedback and better personalities.


I'm just comparing to horse lessons and wondering why the big difference? Sure, with a private lesson you get all the attention on you all the time, but with a group lesson, the trainer is usually focused on one person while everyone else practices the same exercise and listens. You're told in the moment what to do and how to fix it, what to try and how to react. "Do a half halt; lean back, you're too far forward; wrong diagonal; do a circle at this end, notice he's falling in, get a proper bend, push him out - and pick up your lead out of this corner - leg back, inside rein, ask, ask again, there you go, add some energy, half halt - he's running away on you - but keep him cantering, etc etc".

Why isn't dog training the same? "Alright, get your dog's attention, cookie in face and raise it, now walk forward with left leg first, good, ah, call her name, wave the cookie you've lost her - no, stop, start over, get her attention, move forward, she's lagging, give more energy and call her name, good, 3 steps, now stop, raise treat, butt down now click-feed."

Why do I have to do that myself in my head while the trainer is saying something general about how important it is to get and sustain attention during heeling? I know that. Tell me how to fix it in the moment, please.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> or increase food drive by making the dog work for every meal.


Wait wait wait... So having her work for her meals specifically will improve her desire to work for food in general, over time?

Working for food isn't used just so you can do more training without overfeeding the dog? It actually makes them more interested in food in general?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't know the first thing about how general horse lessons go, or about how horses respond to training. 

I can tell you, though, that dog training is mostly a solo endeavor in practice, and it's as much art as science. You can tell someone the general method of using a clicker and getting the timing right, you can give people some suggestions about how to increase food drives (make them work for their meals) but at the end of the day....

Dog training doesn't work like learning dance moves, or how to move your body or hold the leash and when to give energy and when to pull it back and what to train with a toy and where to deliver the treat. You can't have a bunch of precise, exact elements and expect to plug them in and get consistent results across a classroom full of students. The variations in the people, the dogs, and the relationship between people and dogs is just too varied. 

If my Border Collie is lagging and I feed her energy, she's going to fly over threshold and bite me - it's an attention problem. If my Chi-Mix is lagging and I feed her energy, I MIGHT get a peppier, faster response but probably I will shut her down - it's a confidence problem. 

I mean I DO get some immediate feedback in group class, but mostly the trainer is trusting you to know your dog and how to handle your dog. There's also simply the matter that they can't have eyes everywhere. If there is a common problem in the class, they'll address it. If they see you struggling, they'll stop and give a bit of advice, but at the end of the day there just isn't a plug 'n play set of instructions that will work with every dog. Stopping when someone is heeling around and saying 'nope, left leg first', but 6 weeks of classes to cover a lot of material? They're there to PRESENT the material. Working out how to accomplish it WITH YOUR SPECIFIC DOG is always going to very much be your problem.

Just... sometimes that means brainstorming in a private lesson, or emailing questions or hanging around after class to ask for feedback. But I don't think the kind of clarity and specific instructions that work all the time EXISTS in dog training. Maybe because there are so many different methods, there. I really don't know.




> Wait wait wait... So having her work for her meals specifically will improve her desire to work for food in general, over time?
> 
> Working for food isn't used just so you can do more training without overfeeding the dog? It actually makes them more interested in food in general?


YEP! Working for food builds value in the training to the dog and they get more eager to do it. It's kind of fantastic.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alla said:


> I'm just comparing to horse lessons and wondering why the big difference? Sure, with a private lesson you get all the attention on you all the time, but with a group lesson, the trainer is usually focused on one person while everyone else practices the same exercise and listens. You're told in the moment what to do and how to fix it, what to try and how to react. "Do a half halt; lean back, you're too far forward; wrong diagonal; do a circle at this end, notice he's falling in, get a proper bend, push him out - and pick up your lead out of this corner - leg back, inside rein, ask, ask again, there you go, add some energy, half halt - he's running away on you - but keep him cantering, etc etc".
> 
> Why isn't dog training the same? "Alright, get your dog's attention, cookie in face and raise it, now walk forward with left leg first, good, ah, call her name, wave the cookie you've lost her - no, stop, start over, get her attention, move forward, she's lagging, give more energy and call her name, good, 3 steps, now stop, raise treat, butt down now click-feed."
> 
> ...


Just for me personally I think I would go insane with that level of micro instruction. Also, I think because the size of the animal is different it might take a dog less time to do the thing, so verbalizing every little thing to do/not do wouldn't have time to happen, if that makes sense?

In the classes we've done, the instructor will either ask us to show her how we've been doing something or just observe the practice in class, and then offer tips or suggestions after we do the thing.

So for example in our tricks class I told her that we were having trouble with sit pretty, because Luna kept grabbing onto the arm I was using to lure her with the treat. So she asked me to show her what we were doing, observed us, and then suggested putting my hand/arm at a slightly different angle, which for us fixed the problem.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I don't know the first thing about how general horse lessons go, or about how horses respond to training.
> 
> I can tell you, though, that dog training is mostly a solo endeavor in practice, and it's as much art as science. You can tell someone the general method of using a clicker and getting the timing right, you can give people some suggestions about how to increase food drives (make them work for their meals) but at the end of the day....
> 
> ...


Also all of this, haha.

Especially due to the huge variation in size of dogs in particular compared to horses. What works for a small dog may not work for a larger dog just due to physicality, and vice versa.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Okay… I’m starting to get it I think… Huge expectation miscalculation lol.

The size thing makes sense (although you’d be surprised how quickly horses can move when they want to lol). 

The other thing I just thought of is with horses, the new rider is learning how to communicate with a well-trained horse, which is why an instructor can correct in the moment things of asking wrong, because there -is- a correct way to ask, the way the horse has been taught.

In horses there’s a saying - green + green = black and blue. Referring to a green (new) rider and untrained horse, together result in a very dangerous combination. But in dogs this is the norm. So not only is the trainer learning how to train, the dog is learning how to be trained by that trainer. 

That’s why the precise instructions can’t exist. 
That makes sense.

And that actually helps a lot.

The building food drive thing makes sense too, thank you for explaining that.  (Wish the trainer did, but hey lol.)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yes, to get instruction similar to what you would in a riding lesson, you will need private instruction. I'm taking private lessons now and it's exhausting - we spend an hour every two weeks going over everything I'm doing wrong, and giving me homework for the next two weeks (which is usually way more intense than how much I was training before). So yeah, private lessons are going to teach you a lot more than a group class, but in dog training group classes are far more common. A lot of it is going to be figuring stuff out at home yourself. Most of the actual real solid training I've done, like getting a good heel, has been done on my own, not in classes. 

Totally agree with CptJack that I think you should keep taking classes. I think once you are more confident and have a better handle on what you're doing, you will be able to focus less on the instructor and more on what you're doing, and it won't really matter if the instructor is great or just average


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Alla said:


> Okay… I’m starting to get it I think… Huge expectation miscalculation lol.
> 
> The size thing makes sense (although you’d be surprised how quickly horses can move when they want to lol).
> 
> ...


I think you're starting to see that while working with horses has _some_ overlap to working with dogs, there are also a huge number of differences. I would suggest, if you can, to try and block out your experience with horse training and lessons and instead approach dog training as a bit of a blank slate. 

You note a good point about how a well trained horse is generally trained with specific cues that are consistent among horses within the same discipline. As in, a horse might be taught to neck rein vs direct rein but basically any trained horse that neck reins will respond to the same cue in the same way. Dogs have more variety, in part for owner preference in the sense that a school horse will be ridden by many riders but a dog will only be handled by owner and maybe a select few other people. But also I think because they have a greater difference in drive and motivations so one's timing, response and rewards will vary by individual dog to a larger degree than it tends to vary by individual horse.

Sure there are horses that are "stubborn" or "flighty" etc, but IMO, there is less variation in training response and personality especially among the common sport breeds of horses than there is between disparate dog breeds. As in, a hound and a corgi and a GSD are more likely to have different drives and responses to training than say, an Arabian and a Thoroughbred 

The concepts of training (i.e. operant conditioning etc) have a lot of overlap but the mechanics don't necessarily apply the same.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Alla said:


> I'm just comparing to horse lessons and wondering why the big difference? Sure, with a private lesson you get all the attention on you all the time, but with a group lesson, the trainer is usually focused on one person while everyone else practices the same exercise and listens. You're told in the moment what to do and how to fix it, what to try and how to react. "Do a half halt; lean back, you're too far forward; wrong diagonal; do a circle at this end, notice he's falling in, get a proper bend, push him out - and pick up your lead out of this corner - leg back, inside rein, ask, ask again, there you go, add some energy, half halt - he's running away on you - but keep him cantering, etc etc".
> 
> Why isn't dog training the same? "Alright, get your dog's attention, cookie in face and raise it, now walk forward with left leg first, good, ah, call her name, wave the cookie you've lost her - no, stop, start over, get her attention, move forward, she's lagging, give more energy and call her name, good, 3 steps, now stop, raise treat, butt down now click-feed."


Because group riding lessons are generally done on school horses or otherwise well-trained horses, that already know the skills at least up to the level of the class, so it's about training the rider, not about teaching the horse. Additionally, the biomechanics of horseback riding require a much greater degree of precision on the part of the human than the biomechanics of dog handling. 

The private lessons I've taken on green horses for the purpose of getting help with training up the horse, were not in the micro-management style you describe - the coach was mostly there to point out observations about the horse's behavior that were clearer from her vantage point than from the rider's, to offer suggestions, and to basically be a spotter. She'd point out things about my riding in quiet moments, or after the lesson (e.g. "I noticed your hands are going a little high at the canter...") but it'd be distracting and counterproductive to bark commands at the rider about the finer points of leg position while one is starting a spooky young horse over cavaletti or whatever.

I would kick a trainer in the shins if she tried the instruction style you describe above on me during a dog class, lol. A lot of the dog training we've been doing is about teaching the dog to problem-solve and develop spatial awareness, which requires freedom to experiment for both the dog and the handlers. 

I also think there is also a big difference in the way one handles a horse and the way one handles a dog. I don't want my horse thinking for itself, generally. Horses are prey animals, and inherently flaky. They are also large and dangerous in a way that dogs are not. Horses are also trained in a very standardized way, under the expectation that they will be handled by others as well, and probably sold several times in their lifetime.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

And the big difference between riding lessons and dog training is that nobody would ever put a green rider on a green horse, but that's exactly how dog training works. There is a much higher learning curve when neither you nor the dog have any idea what you're doing, and it creates a steep learning curve. It's probably going to feel like chaos at first no matter what class you take, but it will get easier as you figure out what you're doing. Shell and parus made some really good points too about horses and horse training being more standardized than dogs.

In a riding lesson you get to focus on you, because the horse knows exactly what he's doing. In dog training, you have to teach the dog enough stuff first so you can go back to focusing on yourself. My current private lessons are pretty much focused on me and what I'm doing wrong, but that's only because I've trained the basic behaviors to the level where they aren't an issue and the dog knows those behaviors well. We can also focus on my dog as an individual and what his drives and motivations are, much more than a group class where the point is for every dog to get the basic behavior and move on. I'm not sure if private lessons would have been helpful or not when I was starting out - in a way they are intense and if I were brand new it might have made me neurotic to talk about everything I'm doing wrong for an entire hour. But now they are great and I can take that info and work with it instead of feeling overwhelmed and confused.

So private lessons are an option for you, and they are out there, but they are typically harder to find than group classes, and really not necessary for the stage you are at. If your dog were super difficult or react or something private lessons might be better, but for basic obedience I would stick with group classes and muddle through until it starts to get easier.

Also, some level of individual instruction depends on number of students and instructors. In my puppy class, we had two instructors for maybe 6 dogs. While we were practicing at least one would walk around and do individual instruction with each person and puppy, maybe while the main teacher talked. So there was a lot of personalized "No, try it this way. See how much easier?" type of stuff. But that will vary a lot by class. It's common for more advanced classes (even just slightly more advanced classes) to give you a lot of room to work on it yourself and figure things out without a lot of input from the instructor, unless you ask. Could be she's just teaching it like that instead of a true complete beginner class where you assume the people have no mechanical skills and you assume the dogs have never heard "sit" in their life.



Alla said:


> Wait wait wait... So having her work for her meals specifically will improve her desire to work for food in general, over time?
> 
> Working for food isn't used just so you can do more training without overfeeding the dog? It actually makes them more interested in food in general?


Yes, making a dog work for their food will increase food drive. Especially if they just won't work once or twice and they have to skip that meal, they will realize that food = work and food won't just show up in their bowl at a set time. Both the value of the food and the value of training with you will increase.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Alla said:


> Why isn't dog training the same? "Alright, get your dog's attention, cookie in face and raise it, now walk forward with left leg first, good, ah, call her name, wave the cookie you've lost her - no, stop, start over, get her attention, move forward, she's lagging, give more energy and call her name, good, 3 steps, now stop, raise treat, butt down now click-feed."


 I don't think this is asking for too much. At least a nominal amount of personal attention such as this should be included in every set of classes *when required*, especially when obviously required. Which is usually fairly often, lol. I mean, the main purpose of why people and their dogs are THERE, is to learn first-hand. Not merely just to theorize, impersonally, or to listen to the instructor pontificate. It can't all be one-on-one instruction in a group setting of course. But it's pretty much foreseeable for entry level classes, and the instructor should be willing / able to devote at least _some_ time to it. 

How many dogs are in this class? and how many assistant instructors, if any?


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> I mean, the main purpose of why people and their dogs are THERE, is to learn first-hand. Not merely just to theorize, impersonally, or to listen to the instructor pontificate.


Yeah, that’s kind of what I was thinking? I mean, otherwise the purpose of class just becomes distraction proofing and also for those who don’t know how to google… Everything else that has been mentioned can easily be done by taking a video and asking someone knowledgeable, like this forum?



> How many dogs are in this class? and how many assistant instructors, if any?


There are 5 dogs, and no assistant instructors (unless you count the adorable sheltie).


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> They're there to PRESENT the material. Working out how to accomplish it WITH YOUR SPECIFIC DOG is always going to very much be your problem.


But I mean... Why wouldn't I just watch a youtube video then? Isn't the whole point of a live class so that someone knowledgeable is able to help you WITH YOUR SPECIFIC DOG, right there and then?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> But I mean... Why wouldn't I just watch a youtube video then? Isn't the whole point of a live class so that someone knowledgeable is able to help you WITH YOUR SPECIFIC DOG, right there and then?


Yes and no. There should be some individual instruction, absolutely. It doesn't sound like she is doing a good job of that and with one person and 5 dogs it should be doable. Maybe nobody is asking so she just keeps on moving on? 

In most basic obedience classes I have seen, the instructor moves around the class while you are practicing and can comment on what you are doing. Does she just stand up front and talk while you work, make zero comments about what anyone is doing, and then move on to the next subject?


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

No that doesn't sound normal. We've been through 3 classes. The first two were good, but the third was exactly as yours sounds. It was awful. If I hadn't been through the first two already I would probably have decided never to do a class again. We just suffered through it and ended up teaching our own things and in our own way. It was a total waste of money. Thankfully it was only a puppy class and we already have one dog who's been through it.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Yes and no. There should be some individual instruction, absolutely. It doesn't sound like she is doing a good job of that and with one person and 5 dogs it should be doable. Maybe nobody is asking so she just keeps on moving on?
> 
> In most basic obedience classes I have seen, the instructor moves around the class while you are practicing and can comment on what you are doing. Does she just stand up front and talk while you work, make zero comments about what anyone is doing, and then move on to the next subject?


She doesn't move around too much, but she does comment on what we are doing yes. But never in an in-the-moment-how-to-fix it way. For example, last week we were all heeling on specific lines, and pretty much the only comment I remember being addressed to me was when Porsche was sniffing around the ground while I was trying to get her interested in my treat, and the comment was "Does your shepherd care about your food?" To which I said "no", cause duh. Then, if I remember correctly (and I could be wrong because I was trying to fix it myself), she started on a general lecture of how important it was to have the dog's attention and work to keep it during heeling. 

So while she may have touched on what its important and maybe even what to do in her general lecture, it wasn't actionable advice in the moment. I'm also not exactly amazing at listening to a general lecture, while being heavily involved in a training exercise, and figuring out how that general lecture applies to my mistakes and what I need to change right -now- based on that general lecture.



> Maybe nobody is asking so she just keeps on moving on?


Maybe. No one says anything in class at all. I don't really feel comfortable speaking up either... She often asks if we have any questions, and I never have any questions. Because I get the theory, I get the "how to do this command". I guess I should ask something like "can you watch me and tell me what i'm doing wrong"...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> She doesn't move around too much, but she does comment on what we are doing yes. But never in an in-the-moment-how-to-fix it way. For example, last week we were all heeling on specific lines, and pretty much the only comment I remember being addressed to me was when Porsche was sniffing around the ground while I was trying to get her interested in my treat, and the comment was "Does your shepherd care about your food?" To which I said "no", cause duh. Then, if I remember correctly (and I could be wrong because I was trying to fix it myself), she started on a general lecture of how important it was to have the dog's attention and work to keep it during heeling.
> 
> So while she may have touched on what its important and maybe even what to do in her general lecture, it wasn't actionable advice in the moment. I'm also not exactly amazing at listening to a general lecture, while being heavily involved in a training exercise, and figuring out how that general lecture applies to my mistakes and what I need to change right -now- based on that general lecture.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would be more vocal. Say "I understand what you want us to do, but I can't seem to get my dog to do it. Can you help us?" and see what she says.

Sounds like generally poor communication skills. For people who have had dogs before or maybe don't need as much one-on-one help, the class might be fine, but it doesn't work for what you need. Just means it's not a good fit. I've been in and seen lots of classes that were not a good fit for us.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Yes and no. There should be some individual instruction, absolutely. It doesn't sound like she is doing a good job of that and with one person and 5 dogs it should be doable. Maybe nobody is asking so she just keeps on moving on?
> 
> In most basic obedience classes I have seen, the instructor moves around the class while you are practicing and can comment on what you are doing.


Yeah, this. I mean there should be some individual feedback in places, questions should get answered, but it's not a one-on-one intensive thing. Kind of like sitting in a classroom. Someone raises their hand or gets called on and you do interact with the teacher just not... the way you initially described with lots and lots of feedback. At all. The ONLY time I've gotten that kind of focused attention is, well, when I'm the ONLY student.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, this. I mean there should be some individual feedback in places, questions should get answered, but it's not a one-on-one intensive thing. Kind of like sitting in a classroom. Someone raises their hand or gets called on and you do interact with the teacher just not... the way you initially described with lots and lots of feedback. At all. The ONLY time I've gotten that kind of focused attention is, well, when I'm the ONLY student.


Yeah. I'm thinking private lessons - like, once every two weeks like elrohwen is taking - would be my go to option next, at least for obedience. Screw the cost, money is not worth me stressing out like this every week.

I really enjoyed my private Agility lesson, which was very similar to what I'm describing I was expecting obedience to be like. We actually stopped after every rep and talked briefly about what had transpired, what went well and what didn't and what to fix. Trainer didn't continually lecture while I was doing an exercise, allowing me to focus on the exercise and then on the trainer's words. And when she did speak while we were working, it was in that direct "do this, now that" actionable way. 

I did sign up for group agility lessons, so we'll see how that goes, but it still seems like its a "one dog at a time" kind of class. 

Ugh. Now that I know such complicated heeling exercises are coming up in 4 days, I'm scared to work on heeling on my own (which doesn't make us any better at it, surprisingly, lmao). I did start on the other complex thing we'll be doing this week, come in a field from a distance, and it hasn't been going well lol. Porsche is more or less okay with come on a 6ft leash, she'll do it about 50% of the time, but add a 15ft line (which is what we'll be doing in class) and she's just like "WHY are you making me do this? I don't CARE what kind of treats you have. This is my walk. Don't interrupt my sniffing!" So I'll try to be interesting and exciting and call her name and run backwards and take up any slack in the lead. And she won't look at me and will go in semi-circles around me, on a progressively shorter and shorter line, until I can get the cookie in her face and then she's like "oh... okay fine I'll eat it, but only if you immediately let me go back to sniffing".

I just feel like a horrible person for making her do it. :\


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I am going to warn you now, that group agility lessons, depending on level, can very much still be 'everyone do things at once' for some portions. 

There are obviously only one dog on a piece of equipment, sometimes you're walking around in a line/circle to practice crosses, but it's still... well, it's a group class. Give the exercise, everyone practice, discuss after everyone has gone very briefly (or just say 'looks like you're mostly getting it) and then on to the next. When it's a taking turns thing you get a couple of goes with individualized feedback, but the next person is still waiting and sometimes that feedback is 'good' or 'try again and see if you can get her doing X', and one more try. 

At least that's how mine have been.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

One thing I would recommend is do not worry about what the class is going to require next week. The class could require a down stay among other dogs, off leash, with me 30ft away, but if my dog can only do a down stay on a 6ft leash away from other dogs, that's what I'm going to do in class. Do not feel pressured to do the exercises just because people are doing them. You are really not expected to move that fast and most people don't. It's common for a class to be over your head a bit and to need to retake it once or twice before moving on. Some dogs will advance faster because they started with more training, have more experienced trainers, or are just easy to train, but you really aren't expected to keep up if you're not there yet.

So if she can only come from 6ft away, just do that in class. If she can't heel with you with zero distractions, then do not try heeling past distractions in class. Also, a true heel past distractions takes many people years to train and perfect. Admitting that you guys are not up to that level after your 4th class is really not a big deal. You just have to step up and advocate for yourself and your dog and say "we're not ready for that yet, how about we do it this way?" Set your dog up to succeed in class. Any trainer who doesn't allow that and forces you to overface your dog in the name of doing the same thing as everyone else, is a terrible trainer.

Asking her to come to you in a distracting situation where she is not able to pay attention to you isn't training and she's not getting what you're asking when you try that on your walk. Take it back a notch or two to a level where she is successful and understands, and then build up. She's just not sure what you want right now so step back and figure out how to show her what you want. It sounds like she's just following the lead around until she gets to you, and then taking the cookie because it's there, but she's not understanding what you want. Getting a dog to work for you outside when they would rather sniff is not an easy thing to do. I mean, I'm 2.5 years into this dog and that's pretty much been what we're worked on for 2.5 years, and what I am now paying lots of money for private lessons to fix. Training the behaviors is the easy part, but getting engagement and attention when the dog would rather do their own thing is kind of the work of a lifetime.

ETA: Private lessons could go either way I think. You might really enjoy the one-on-one attention and interaction and get a ton of out of it. With the right instructor, I'm sure you will. But you may also feel like you're paying to have someone criticize everything you do. lol I really really like the guy I'm working with, and he is very positive, but I'm sensitive and sometimes it's hard to hear "Well, yeah, you've kind of been doing this wrong the whole time". The first couple classes I came home pretty bummed out. A private instructor will also expect you to put in the work. In a group class I can show up and do whatever, and if I haven't worked hard on something then oh well. But at $75 for a private lesson, if he tells me to train with every meal, at least once a day outside, and in new locations, you better bet I'm going to train my butt off. I don't want to show up in two weeks and say "Yeah, we didn't really work on that ... I felt lazy". It's a good kick in the pants, but it's a lot of pressure.

And as I mentioned earlier, it's easier to focus on myself when my dog is already trained in the behaviors. When it comes to new things, I still need to work them out on my own at home and then come back to class for some tips, but the dog isn't getting trained right there in the lesson either. Basically I'm just saying to be even more picky about the trainer if you are going to do private lessons, because your relationship with that person matters so much more. There are people I would happily take group classes with that I would never take private lessons with, because I would hate it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

^Also that.

There is a reason many people take the same class over and over.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I am going to warn you now, that group agility lessons, depending on level, can very much still be 'everyone do things at once' for some portions.
> 
> There are obviously only one dog on a piece of equipment, sometimes you're walking around in a line/circle to practice crosses, but it's still... well, it's a group class. Give the exercise, everyone practice, discuss after everyone has gone very briefly (or just say 'looks like you're mostly getting it) and then on to the next. When it's a taking turns thing you get a couple of goes with individualized feedback, but the next person is still waiting and sometimes that feedback is 'good' or 'try again and see if you can get her doing X', and one more try.
> 
> At least that's how mine have been.


The usual pattern for my agility classes (noob level at agility, but all the dogs have to have solid basics before they're allowed to take the class) is to focus on a particular skill or piece of equipment per class. So let's say it's jump night. We do warmup games with our dogs while everyone gets set up, then the instructor shows and talks about the jump, usually demonstrating with her own dog or a friendly dog from the class. Then we all go individually or in pairs to jumps set up around the area and simultaneously try with our own dogs while she walks around and gives advice and answers questions. Then she sets up a mini-course emphasizing that particular element, and we take turns running our dogs through one at a time, and at the end get feedback on how it went. During the practice runs at the end, the other dogs are crated and we treat it like it's a real match, except that people can go back and try things over and whatnot if they need to. I really like the approach...seems like good pedagogy to me, plenty of opportunity to both practice and to observe.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It's been a while since I was in a class with equipment (which for us is after foundations but before real courses) but yeah, that's kind of similar. Foundations there is a lot of working all at once (everyone has a bucket, practice teaching your dogs to put their paws on it. Everyone has a bigger bucket, teach your dog to go around it) and corrections happen as trainer and assistant move around the room if something is radically wrong. Beginner pretty much - this is an a-frame. We work on teaching the dog contacts on the a-frame. Everyone line up. Person goes, hops their dog onto the table, then onto the bottom of the a-frame, then lures into position and feeds (or really there's a target). After everyone's done that, everyone lines back up and goes OVER the a-frame and the dog hits the contact/target, go to the back of the line. 

So, it's sort of one at a time at that level, I suppose. Except it's still not very focused? It's 'Lecture/explanation of exercise, get in line, take turns DOING the exercise, have 2-3 goes at it if there's a problem (and after 2-3 you're moving on if you've got it or not), and then get back into the back of the line and your turn will come again either this exercise or next one' and you'll get another 2-3 chances to work on it with the instructor, get a sentence or two of feedback and then, again, back of the line and onto the next thing. 

I like it. It works for me. And you get both more and less individual instruction here as you go. More in that the upper level CLASSES are smaller so you can get more bites of time out of that hour. Less because after THOSE classes, you get privates (which are 30 minutes and hard to get because of scheduling - I get two a month and I'm lucky to have that) and run-throughs that are basically open to the club, a course is set, and you figure it out yourself.

Though frankly those run throughs are people who are already competing and I've got to be honest at that stage we really do teach each other a lot. You're also right that sitting back and WATCHING teaches a ton.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Boooo. I had our Obedience 3 class tonight, and gonna give a general overview on how things go/what your posts made me think:

With the caveat that we had this same instructor for Obedience 2 (granted, that was several months ago), by the end of the second class she knew all the dogs' names. And most of the owners. This is a class of 6-8 (depending on if we get full attendance). 

Obedience 1 and 2 the facility gave us a booklet with an overview of the exercises and homework for each week. (Six weeks of class). But it seems this is more of the exception than the rule in the thread. By Obedience 3, we are largely proofing and working on just...bringing it all into the real world. So no handouts for that 

It's run out of a facility. Classes are mostly indoors. We take a quick 2-5 minute break at the halfway point and the dogs can go outside to sniff, use the bathroom, whatever. Sometimes we'll go outside to the parking lot to practice behaviors. Or go into the shop within the facility. All for proofing. But this is with dogs that have been in 12-18 weeks of classes. 

The instructor explains what we will be doing, and pauses and asks if anyone has any questions. We do said exercises for several reps. Sometimes, the exercise involves taking turns and only one dog goes at a time. You definitely get more individual feedback then. Particularly we've been working on durations/distractions/distance in stays. With that we all start the exercise and she'll call out a dog one by one. Once your name is called, you go in and reward. 

So, yeah. There's a lot of communication going on lol.

At the end of class we get a reminder, work on xyz (normally just what we did in class, but sometimes it's a different behavior) and we'll being doing abc next week.

So yeah. I feel like you could find a lot better. But maybe I'm just spoiled by the place I go to.  Sorry, this is a bit scattered.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

^^ Agreed. My experiences in classes (at a couple of different places) have been:

1. Any questions from last week (or in general if first week)
2. Review/practice exercises from last week
3. Briefly explain new exercises, often with a demo dog (instructor's dog or a comfortable student's dog)
4. Everyone practice new exercise while instructor circulates through class assisting
5. Repeat 3 and 4 for a few different exercises
6. Questions
7. Weekly follow up email going over exercises again and "homework"

A class as described in the OP would displease me muchly.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Yeahhh, your guys’ classes sound excellent.  I’ve kind of calmed down about mine after this thread. I kind of know what to expect, its no big deal if I can’t do it because I can’t move at inhuman speed… I guess I just kind of expected that if we’re being asked to do something in class, it’s because we’re at a level where we should be able to reasonably do it. Within a few tries maybe, but still, and if you can’t do it then you failed at practicing enough and training enough. Kind of like a mini “test” every week. 

But if its supposed to be way above your head and its normal to take a class multiple times, then I feel a bit better about being asked to do such things. I probably won’t be taking any more group obedience classes, cause not sure what the point is, but still. If agility goes poorly, maybe I won’t take any more group classes at all, at least until she’s proofed everywhere except with dogs. 

I’m kind of interested in conformation handling.  I’ve sent a few notes out to dog people in the area about a good place to do a few classes in that. Seems like if would be a fun thing to dabble in. 

Re: building food drive by using meals - I have a question. How imperative is it to have a routine for this? I.e. most days I’m good with replacing the evening meal with training sessions. But sometimes I’m just not up for it, so I give her the meal in her bowl. Is that not going to be confusing for her, i.e. some days she must work for food otherwise she gets nothing, other times she just gets food? I don’t think I can just commit to always replacing dinner with training, no matter what. My trainer says to split the daily ration into 3 portions, and always feed 1/3rd am and pm, and the remaining 3rd during training… But that seems like it doesn’t build drive, cause she would get fed regardless?

Also she frequently takes breaks for water if we train with kibble, which totally breaks the flow of the training session, as she’ll often blow a stay or a position command (or heeling) to go drink… and I feel bad preventing that cause she’s thirsty. And if I feed one kibble at a time, she doesn’t chew and ends up choking on it occasionally, which naturally also breaks the flow, is dangerous, and doesn’t give her good associations with training. If I feed a handful at a time, which encourages her to chew, she won’t choke as often (but it still happens 1-2 times a session). Then she’ll put her head down and spit it back out, then chew it properly and swallow again. This doesn’t happen with anything but kibble. And this will also happen if she eats from her bowl as well, but I put a ball in there to slow her down and it helps a lot.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I’m kind of interested in conformation handling.  I’ve sent a few notes out to dog people in the area about a good place to do a few classes in that. Seems like if would be a fun thing to dabble in.


Any dog can join a handling class, so sign up for one! Is she from US show lines? GSDs are *extremely* hard to show competitively, as most dogs are of a very particular type and are shown by professionals. Check out some of Xeph's posts - she recently finished Wesson as an owner-handler and it was not an easy journey. Many other breeds are like exponentially easier. But you can certainly try it out and see if it's your thing. I'll also warn that handling classes are even less step by step and organized than obedience classes. It's a weird mix of people who have shown many dogs and are just there for the socialization aspect, and people there with their first dog who don't know anything. And often they're drop in so different people week to week. A good instructor will make sure the newbies know what's going on though.



> Re: building food drive by using meals - I have a question. How imperative is it to have a routine for this? I.e. most days I’m good with replacing the evening meal with training sessions. But sometimes I’m just not up for it, so I give her the meal in her bowl. Is that not going to be confusing for her, i.e. some days she must work for food otherwise she gets nothing, other times she just gets food? I don’t think I can just commit to always replacing dinner with training, no matter what. My trainer says to split the daily ration into 3 portions, and always feed 1/3rd am and pm, and the remaining 3rd during training… But that seems like it doesn’t build drive, cause she would get fed regardless?
> 
> Also she frequently takes breaks for water if we train with kibble, which totally breaks the flow of the training session, as she’ll often blow a stay or a position command (or heeling) to go drink… and I feel bad preventing that cause she’s thirsty. And if I feed one kibble at a time, she doesn’t chew and ends up choking on it occasionally, which naturally also breaks the flow, is dangerous, and doesn’t give her good associations with training. If I feed a handful at a time, which encourages her to chew, she won’t choke as often (but it still happens 1-2 times a session). Then she’ll put her head down and spit it back out, then chew it properly and swallow again. This doesn’t happen with anything but kibble. And this will also happen if she eats from her bowl as well, but I put a ball in there to slow her down and it helps a lot.


The choking and horking up thing tends to happen with kibble. I just feed small handfuls to avoid it, and mix in some more moist treats.

As far as using it to build food drive, it depends how hard core you want to be. To really do it right, the dog should work for every bit of every meal, and if the dog isn't interested in working they miss that meal and have to try again later. If the dog knows he'll just get a bowl of food in the morning, he might blow off work in the evening. 

But you really don't need to be that hardcore at this point. You could just ask for a couple sits and downs and then feed from the bowl. You could have her work for one meal and feed the other in a bowl. See how it goes.

ETA: Sorry, I accidentally submitted this when I was still halfway through writing.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> Is she from US show lines?


German Working lines lol. 

but, um, for funsies? 

*goes to read rest of the post*


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> German Working lines lol.
> 
> but, um, for funsies?
> 
> *goes to read rest of the post*


You can totally do handling class for funsies. It's honestly better to get the mechanics down yourself on a dog you're not planning to show, vs bumbling around and trying to figure it out when you have a wiggling 6 month old future confo dog. I know people who have done classes with neutered dogs just to learn.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> You can totally do handling class for funsies. It's honestly better to get the mechanics down yourself on a dog you're not planning to show, vs bumbling around and trying to figure it out when you have a wiggling 6 month old future confo dog. I know people who have done classes with neutered dogs just to learn.


If I were to do handling classes I'd totally show at least once or twice to see how it goes. Just seems like a waste otherwise lol. 
Although I probably would never get a US show lines GSD. Their toplines and hips scare the crap out of me. If Porsche can participate in some friendly multi-breed local show things and not come in dead last, I'll be happy with that.  My agility trainer (who is also a confo judge) did mention that she is a well-built GSD so maybe we're not doomed from the start lol. I probably wouldn't want to put in the effort of putting a title on her unless some miracle happens and confo judges around here suddenly decide that a euro working gsd is awesome for confo in canada lol. I need to get a pic of her stacked, if boyfriend complies, see what you guys think of her 



> As far as using it to build food drive, it depends how hard core you want to be. To really do it right, the dog should work for every bit of every meal, and if the dog isn't interested in working they miss that meal and have to try again later. If the dog knows he'll just get a bowl of food in the morning, he might blow off work in the evening.
> 
> But you really don't need to be that hardcore at this point. You could just ask for a couple sits and downs and then feed from the bowl. You could have her work for one meal and feed the other in a bowl. See how it goes.


Yeahhhh I am not able to commit to feeding every single last kibblet during training lol. What I've been doing this week is feed half her morning meal from a bowl, then feed the rest at lunch during training. If she doesn't want to train at lunch with kibble, fine. She usually is more than happy to train for that same kibble after work, around 5pm. So we do that. Then if I'm up for it, train again for her dinner around 8-9pm. If not, she gets it from her bowl.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> If I were to do handling classes I'd totally show at least once or twice to see how it goes. Just seems like a waste otherwise lol.
> Although I probably would never get a US show lines GSD. Their toplines and hips scare the crap out of me. If Porsche can participate in some friendly multi-breed local show things and not come in dead last, I'll be happy with that.  My agility trainer (who is also a confo judge) did mention that she is a well-built GSD so maybe we're not doomed from the start lol. I probably wouldn't want to put in the effort of putting a title on her unless some miracle happens and confo judges around here suddenly decide that a euro working gsd is awesome for confo in canada lol. I need to get a pic of her stacked, if boyfriend complies, see what you guys think of her


I was just going to suggest trying UKC until I remembered you're in Canada. The shows up there might be friendlier and smaller. If you take a handling class the instructor should be able to tell you which shows will be small and easy going.




> Yeahhhh I am not able to commit to feeding every single last kibblet during training lol. What I've been doing this week is feed half her morning meal from a bowl, then feed the rest at lunch during training. If she doesn't want to train at lunch with kibble, fine. She usually is more than happy to train for that same kibble after work, around 5pm. So we do that. Then if I'm up for it, train again for her dinner around 8-9pm. If not, she gets it from her bowl.


That sounds reasonable. I'm trying to boost my own dog's food drive now, since it drops off a lot in places that are highly distracting. I am training with every meal, but I will often only train with half of it and give the other half in his bowl. In the mornings I feel lazy, so we just do some quick shaping for retrieves, or go over a couple jumps in the basement (building his strength), then he eats from his bowl. At lunch and dinner I try to get outside if I can, and in a place off my property at least a couple times a week. But we're kind of in training bootcamp. It's up to you how much work you can/want to put into it. I have found that Watson is much more willing to work for only kibble, and much more willing to work outside under distraction.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I would rethink using kibble as a reward for working. I would think about using a higher value reward especially in class....think along the lines of cubed chicken/steak, hotdogs, string cheese, red barn or natural balance food rolls. Think of something your (collective your) dogs will turn themselves inside out to eat. 

Having a dog work for kibble is like you working at your job for a dollar/hour. How excited would you be to show up for your job if your take home pay was 8 dollars for an entire day? Cubed chicken would be equivalent to 30 dollars an hour.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

MrsBoats said:


> I would rethink using kibble as a reward for working. I would think about using a higher value reward especially in class....think along the lines of cubed chicken/steak, hotdogs, string cheese, red barn or natural balance food rolls. Think of something your (collective your) dogs will turn themselves inside out to eat.
> 
> Having a dog work for kibble is like you working at your job for a dollar/hour. How excited would you be to show up for your job if your take home pay was 8 dollars for an entire day? Cubed chicken would be equivalent to 30 dollars an hour.


But what about the whole building drive thing and working for food thing?

For class yeah, its chicken/hotdog or she won't even bother to take it. Not worth opening her mouth for.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> I would rethink using kibble as a reward for working. I would think about using a higher value reward especially in class....think along the lines of cubed chicken/steak, hotdogs, string cheese, red barn or natural balance food rolls. Think of something your (collective your) dogs will turn themselves inside out to eat.
> 
> Having a dog work for kibble is like you working at your job for a dollar/hour. How excited would you be to show up for your job if your take home pay was 8 dollars for an entire day? Cubed chicken would be equivalent to 30 dollars an hour.


Even at home, in a low distraction environment?

Personally, I have seen a lot more food drive when I do pull out the good stuff in class or new places than I did before I was using kibble at home for routine sessions. Before he got good stuff for training all the time and it was less exciting to see it in class.

I've also learned that his excitement for working is based far more on my training and our session than it is on the quality of the food reward. He can get excited for kibble or be blah for meatballs. The quality of the food reward wasn't the solution for our motivation issues.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Even at home, in a low distraction environment?
> 
> Personally, I have seen a lot more food drive when I do pull out the good stuff in class or new places than I did before I was using kibble at home for routine sessions. Before he got good stuff for training all the time and it was less exciting to see it in class.


This. I've actually managed to create some decent food drive in Thud by giving him all of his meals at home via training. Yeah, if I'm asking in a distracting environment or really hard behavior I up the value of the food or use something else, but having a reward that isn't 'maul the owner' is kind of useful for me  And before 'work for it' he didn't care about even high value food.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I have never in my life used kibble as a reward for work. It's always a high value reward...right now, my go to food reward is red barn food rolls.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have 10, 12, 25, 35lb dogs on top of Thud. If I used high value for all the training they did, they'd either weigh 900lbs or eat no decent quality food. In the case of the 10 and 12lb dogs they'd LITERALLY eat no real food. Once a week or occasionally, fine, but all the time? No way. There is nothing small enough to work with Kylie on a daily basis without REPLACING her meals completely, anyway. A single hot dog chopped into 100 pieces will last through a day, yeah. It'll also replace the entire volume and calories she eats in a day.

Molly needs a higher rate of reinforcement in some environments. Those days the treats she consumes DOES replace the food she eats for the whole day. When they don't, she's overweight within a month (like visibly). I certainly can't work with her at home doing nothing but fairly high value and high calorie foods and have her still eating decently balanced kibble; she likes to train too much. 

I could go lower calorie, I guess, but at that rate I'm also going lower VALUE. Thud I have enough room to play with more treats of high value - but if he'll work for his meal with enthusiasm and enjoyment at home, he can. He enjoys the food AND the training more as a result.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Here's a little known secret....(I free feed my dogs because bloat scares the absolute hell out of me)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Ah, yeah. That would change things and the dog's eagerness for food. I couldn't free feed, no matter what. Jack would starve to death and Thud would eat someone. 

As as aside, I looked and realized that a single hot dog contains 50% MORE calories than Kylie's daily kibble ration. That made me laugh.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Ah, yeah. That would change things and the dog's eagerness for food.


Yup....Lars' mother has bloated once and the boys' uncle has bloated twice. Both survived....but I lessen the risk of them gulping down a ton of food in one sitting. They eat smaller amounts when they're hungry. That's also why I use the food rolls as reward...it's a balanced food versus a "treat."


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm not concerned with calories for Watson because he doesn't ever seem to gain weight, but I did get the point where I realized that the value of the treat didn't influence how excited he was to work at all. For him it's all about how confident he is and if he feels like he knows what I want, and it doesn't really matter what the reward is. If I can't get confident and happy, it I can shove hot dogs at him and he's still not going to want to work. 

Also, Watson has always been excited by quantity over quality. A handful of treats is way more motivating than one treat. He seems to really enjoy a small handful of kibble, or kibbles fed one by one, over a single higher value treat.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, I tried both those and dehydrated raw with the smaller two (Bug and Kylie). Bug will eat anything but none of the other dogs would TOUCH the food rolls, even at home. Weirdest thing ever because I've heard good things, but they just weren't having it. The dehydrated raw was popular for a while, but Kylie would only work for it ONCE away from home and at that stage she may as well work for kibble at home and I can save the money. 

I should probably try that again at some point, now that she's more sure of what she's doing and ENJOYS it. At that stage Kylie wouldn't really work for hotdogs or cheese, either.

I probably created this situation myself, though, because they KNOW 'people food' is an option. And they want it.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm too scared to free-feed lol. Porsche has a tendency to gain weight, and she's eating throughout the day anyways between the meals and the training and the walks and the chew treats.

I've also noticed if she's preoccupied with something else, she doesn't want to train. So like, on a walk, until she's both peed and pooped, I can yell come and wave hotdogs at her all day and nothing. As soon as she's done everything, suddenly she remembers what "come" means and what "wait" means and suddenly hot dogs are worth doing sit for.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I'm too scared to free-feed lol. Porsche has a tendency to gain weight, and she's eating throughout the day anyways between the meals and the training and the walks and the chew treats.
> 
> I've also noticed if she's preoccupied with something else, she doesn't want to train. So like, on a walk, until she's both peed and pooped, I can yell come and wave hotdogs at her all day and nothing. As soon as she's done everything, suddenly she remembers what "come" means and what "wait" means and suddenly hot dogs are worth doing sit for.


I think that's common. I've had Watson start to flake out on me in class and sniff around, so I take him outside, he pees, and when we come back in he's ready to train again. If we're going to work outside I always let him potty first (but he's also quick and will pee within 15sec of getting out the door)


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Every dog is different. Creating drive varies from dog to dog. Like Mrs. Boats, I use great stuff for all training. I am also a huge fan of Red Barn Rolls.

For some dogs, the quality of food will matter. For my very drivey dog, I can use kibble, but the choking is an issue. Sometimes I moisten kibble and use it with him if I am working nosework where the reward ratio is insane. For my whippets, I always use great stuff.

There are no hard and fast rules. Do what works. I think that my dogs eventually pair the value of the reinforcer with the way they feel about the work. I want my dogs to love work, so I use the best stuff in terms of toys and food and praise. I keep sessions short and fun. Pretty soon, the work becomes reinforcing itself. I still reward, but I get to drop my rate of reinforcement because the work is a reward in it's own right.

If I say "heel" to one dog, the other two scream to work. That's because the cue means that the great stuff is coming. Everyone wants to work. This is developed through a history of work being the pathway to the best things in life.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> Every dog is different. Creating drive varies from dog to dog. Like Mrs. Boats, I use great stuff for all training. I am also a huge fan of Red Barn Rolls.
> 
> For some dogs, the quality of food will matter. For my very drivey dog, I can use kibble, but the choking is an issue. Sometimes I moisten kibble and use it with him if I am working nosework where the reward ratio is insane. For my whippets, I always use great stuff.
> 
> ...


^^^^ Amen to this.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I have noticed that in a low-distraction environment, if she is engaged with me and i have both kibble and hotdog (or chicken or cheese or whatever) on me, that she doesn't show any outward signs of caring about which one she is rewarded with. 

It is certainly easier to engage her with hotdog though.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I have noticed that in a low-distraction environment, if she is engaged with me and i have both kibble and hotdog (or chicken or cheese or whatever) on me, that she doesn't show any outward signs of caring about which one she is rewarded with.
> 
> It is certainly easier to engage her with hotdog though.


I will often use the high value treat to jump start engagement, and then use more kibble. So we'll go outside and do one or two behaviors and he'll get jackpotted with meatballs. And then he's excited and working and I'll go back to kibble and he doesn't seem to notice or care (or maybe he's hoping for more meatball, which I can then jackpot again a little later in the session). He inhales it all anyway. lol


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Just another thought I wanted to come back and share about the kibble vs high value treats debate. If the dog gets kibble all the time for free in his bowl (either free fed or on a schedule) then I agree it's probably not a high value reward for that dog. But if the dog only eats kibble while working with you, I think that does raise the value of the kibble significantly, as well as raising the value of working with you. It's not like kibble is cardboard crap - a lot of it is smelly, high protein, high fat, etc. Obviously all dogs are different and require different things, but I don't think you can make a blanket statement that training with kibble cannot be very rewarding and high value for that dog, or that using meals to train can't be a good technique. 

Also, I only started training with every meal at the insistence of a private trainer I'm working with, but even he isn't suggesting that I shouldn't use higher value rewards than kibble in lessons or distracting places.

I'm also not saying I don't train with lots of really high value stuff and think my dog should only get kibble ever (heck, he got pretty much only high value rewards for the last 2.5 years and I rarely trained with kibble), but I have seen positive changes by going out of my way to make kibble higher value, rather than always trying to outdo myself with higher and higher value treats.

Just some thoughts for the OP.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, I think just like using really good rewards can build value in an activity or performance (or pairing food with toys can build food drive) it can work the other way around. Where the value in the kibble gets higher over time, by virtue of it BEING a reward and it being paired with fun and praise and success and excitement.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, I think just like using really good rewards can build value in an activity or performance (or pairing food with toys can build food drive) it can work the other way around. Where the value in the kibble gets higher over time, by virtue of it BEING a reward and it being paired with fun and praise and success and excitement.


Yes, this was what I was trying to say, but much better said!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Do add to all of this, a book my trainer gave me to read recently (kick ass book) had the idea of using two different rewards to help the dog figure out what you want. I.e. if you ask for a down, and the down is sloppy and 10 seconds later but it still happens, feed your low-value reward. But if the down is good and quick, feed your higher-value reward. 

Same principle as jackpotting, but with two different types of food. I thought it was a neat idea.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

What it boils down to is "Every dog is different. Creating drive varies from dog to dog." What I've been doing clearly works for my dogs...I have zero problems with getting them in drive with attention when I need them to be. Red Barn food rolls works for me and my students in my classes who I have recommended them switch rewards. 

That's the one thing about dog training....there are no set instructions or recipes or flow charts on how to get something to work with your dog. Personally, I have had a crap ton of information and instruction given to me from instructors that failed miserably for MY dogs. Winter of 2014 was the last time I set foot into a class like setting (agility classes for O)....I've gone totally rogue and have just decided to figure it out all on my own. Lars and I figured out Utility Obedience completely on our own. Sometimes, you have to be ready to do some major alchemy to figure out what's going to work for your dog.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> Do add to all of this, a book my trainer gave me to read recently (kick ass book) had the idea of using two different rewards to help the dog figure out what you want. I.e. if you ask for a down, and the down is sloppy and 10 seconds later but it still happens, feed your low-value reward. But if the down is good and quick, feed your higher-value reward.
> 
> Same principle as jackpotting, but with two different types of food. I thought it was a neat idea.


I know Susan Garrett recommends that in her videos. I'm not coordinated enough, personally. I have to think too hard about which one I want to treat, and it slows down my delivery. I do use it sometimes if it's something slow and deliberate and I have time to think, or mix treats random, but more often I just use quantity as a jackpot because it's easy for me to do more or less treats.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ugh I do not have the time of day and honestly I feel bad making dogs work for meals. I'd rather have little training sessions throughout the day and let meals just be meals. Plus I feed a mixture of raw and kibble so it's not logistically simple. I mostly use food rolls that are meant to be a meal vs a treat and/or dehydrated lung and just figure it into their calories for the day. 

Having said that, I often mix treats of varying values in one container so they never know if they're going to get "yummy" treat or SUPER YUMMY AMAZING treat. I do think it makes a difference.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Ugh I do not have the time of day and honestly I feel bad making dogs work for meals. I'd rather have little training sessions throughout the day and let meals just be meals. Plus I feed a mixture of raw and kibble so it's not logistically simple. I mostly use food rolls that are meant to be a meal vs a treat and/or dehydrated lung and just figure it into their calories for the day.
> 
> Having said that, I often mix treats of varying values in one container so they never know if they're going to get "yummy" treat or SUPER YUMMY AMAZING treat. I do think it makes a difference.


^^^ This too....


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Ugh I do not have the time of day and honestly I feel bad making dogs work for meals.


My husband guilts me every single day for making the dog wait an extra 45min for his breakfast (previously my husband fed breakfast, and now the dog has to wait for me). 

I do miss feeding from a bowl because of the time commitment of having to train at certain times even if I don't feel like it or have extra time. But the expensive private instructor highly recommended it, and I have seen a very positive change in engagement outside. In our case it was to fix an issue though, not something he would recommend for every dog. So I'm sticking it out, at least until the puppy comes and I don't have time any more.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea it is not your fault that I'm a giant marshmallow about it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, for me the only dog I do this with consistently is Kylie and that's because her food portions are small and so is the room I have to compensate for calories. Even then, I sure as heck have been known to skip days.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Yea it is not your fault that I'm a giant marshmallow about it.


I think my husband's real problem is that previously Watson would get up with him in the morning, but now he wants to snuggle in bed with me until I get up. He knows he won't get breakfast until I get up, and he doesn't care about going outside, apparently. I think that hurts my husband's feelings. lol

I did feel really bad the two times he didn't get a meal because he just refused to engage with me at all (I promised the instructor I would try withholding meals if he wouldn't work). But he gets fed 3 times a day, and that was lunch, so it's not like he had to starve for 24 hours. And I have to say, he came back much more excited to work at dinner time and hasn't blown me off completely again.

I actually do like that it forces me to train. Previously I put off teaching the retrieve a *lot*. But now that I have to train 3 times a day, an easy option when I'm lazy is to pick up the dumbbell and do that for 2 minutes. So it's been a good kick in the pants to work on somethings I was avoiding.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

> I actually do like that it forces me to train. Previously I put off teaching the retrieve a *lot*. But now that I have to train 3 times a day, an easy option when I'm lazy is to pick up the dumbbell and do that for 2 minutes. So it's been a good kick in the pants to not put things off.


I have noticed this benefit as well.  I would previously not train in the evening at all. Now I do 2-3 sessions for dinner.  Its a nice kick in the pants. Its also probably why our platform work is improving by leaps and bounds.


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