# Considering a prong collar??



## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

I didn't think I would ever use a prong collar, but now I'm considering it after reading the semi-recent thread about them. So, basically, I'm wondering if a prong collar would be a useful (hopefully temporary) tool in my situation.

A little background info first...

My dog, Duke, is 80 lbs of muscle and is very leash reactive. He has also been a freight train on the leash since the day I got him when he was 9 months old.

We've been working on loose-leash walking for FOREVER, and he's great in the house and yard when there are no distractions and I have treats. When I have his focus he's amazing, walking right by my side & never even takes his eyes off of me. But, if there's even the smallest distraction, it's like I don't exist, even if I have yummy hotdogs in my hand. 

Even though I've been working of LLW for over a year now, his first instinct when I put his leash on is to pull to the end of the it until he's choking himself, unless I guide him back to my side and click&treat. If there's a pause in the endless stream of click&treats for staying at my side, he immediately is at the end of the leash pulling and choking himself again. I swear it would be a million times easier to train him as a sled dog than to walk nicely on the leash. :doh: It's almost like he enjoys pulling.

I've tried teaching him that if there's tension/pressure on the leash he gets rewarded for coming back to me. He figured it out right away and would immediately go back and pull at the end of the leash again, so he could come back to me for another treat (before I would even have a chance to reward him for staying by me with a loose leash).

Then on top of the pulling, we have the joy of dealing with reactivity. Now his reactivity has improved tremendously, especially when he's wearing his backpack (seems to put him into a work mode mindset where he ignores his surroundings more), but it still raises hell occasionally. And an 80 lb cujo at the end of the leash can be hard to handle sometimes. He has almost pulled me over on more than one occasion.

Here's the list of what I've tried in combination with training:

- Freedom Harness: Didn't help with pulling one bit. He would just pull sideways. He also HATED this harness. The only time I've heard him really growl is wearing this harness. I don't think he liked the pressure under his armpits. Plus, I could never get the harness to fit right. His chest and shoulders are so huge that the harness seemed to sit in the wrong place and made him extremely uncomfortable. Also tried a few other harnesses that I can't remember the names of (from no-pulling to just normal harnesses) and he hated them all.

- Gentle Leader: Used once and took it back. He didn't like it at all, and I didn't feel safe using a head collar that didn't attach to the collar as a backup. And, I didn't like that the leash connected under the chin.

- Bold Lead Designs Perfect Pace Head Halter: Actually didn't mind this one, but it rubbed Duke's face, was hard to put on, and didn't lessen his pulling or give me much more control when his cujo came out to play. He didn't mind wearing it, but there had to be just enough going to distract him from the fact he was wearing it.

- Indi Dog Head Collar: This is my favorite right now. It's fleece lined and seems comfy, but he does still paw at it if we're just standing still. I like that it's custom sized, so there's really no adjusting needed, and that the leash connects behind the head. It also seems to be helpful in giving me a little more control when needed for safety purposes. He does not seem to pull quite as bad wearing this but when he's excited he just goes upwards instead of forwards. :doh:

If I do decide to try a prong collar, it would be a management tool, NEVER used for corrections. It's just so hard to take him on walks, even with daily LLW training, because his pulling can be overwhelming sometimes. If I was seeing even the tiniest amount of steady improvement, I would never consider a prong collar, but it seems like we're still stuck at the same spot as when I got him. I also like the idea of having a short grab handle attached to the prong collar and the leash running through the handle but attached to his martingale collar. Then the prong isn't engaged all the time but is there for backup when needed.

Sorry this turned into such a book! :redface: Just wanted to provide as much info as possible for you guys to make suggestions. Also, reading this makes Duke sound like an awful, out-of-control dog. He's really a fantastic dog and these are his two main issues (besides wanting to greet new people with a kind of love that can only be described as violent... another work in progress haha). He's literally one of the smartest, most loving dogs I've ever met and has also worked miracles pulling my mom out of her depression as well. If we can fix these issues (or at least subdue them a little), he would be pretty close to perfect.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

IF the head collar is working for you, you are probably not going to get better control with a prong. I do use a prong with Thud and my 'back up' method with it is that I hook the leash to his collar and the prong, or attach the prong to the 'dead link' so it doesn't engage at this stage, but I definitely used it when he was being difficult (ie: huge, lunging suddenly and in bad weather). I had to do SOMETHING if I was going to walk him anywhere; it was just flat out dangerous. I don't have any guilt or regret about it, either. 

The thing is, he didn't pull steadily, he lunged and that made the halter something that made me really, really uncomfortable and worried about his neck. I don't think a prong is a bad thing - and if you get one please go have one fitted properly in store by a trainer, in person - but I also don't know that it's going to help you any more than what you've already gotten, or give you better safety/control.

One thing besides the prong that helped him enormously was to switch out his leash for a training tab or traffic leash. It kept him close to me and if he couldn't physically engage by going 4-6 feet away, he tended to keep his BRAIN on me, too. But I don't need leash walking for exercise. I need leash walking to get TO exercise (ie: he exercises off leash, so him being kept right next to me was not an issue, since his running and sniffing and exploring happened without the leash).


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## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

I have not read your entire post, just the last paragraph, sorry. 

I used to use choker chains for controlling my previous dogs because I thought prongs were cruel. 

My trainer convinced me to use a prong for my current dog Tula, because she was a puller (as this is what Berners were ment to do) and I have to say, I no longer think prong collars are cruel and think they are a very useful training tool. If you feel this may help you with your training, I say go for it. Your dog will learn to how to get the pressure to stop by not pulling.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh god, choke chains. I HATE choke chains. Choke chains terrify me. I KNOW they look more innocuous than prongs, but they *choke the dog*. Prongs look nasty, but it's a pinch and you can't... strangle your dog on them. Your dog can't strangle themselves with them. It's unpleasant, sure, and it's an aversive training method, but they're not going to damage your dog unless they're horribly fitted or left on when not being used.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Worth a try. Doesn't sound like you're inclined to use it badly. Hard to predict individual dogs, but sometimes prong collars work a treat. 

All the usual blah blah blah applies . . . don't leave it on after the walk, don't jerk on it, don't chain the dog in the yard with it . . . but this is common sense.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I'd work on the reactivity first of all, using a simple flat collar and following the LAT protocol or similar. Leash reactivity plus a prong could add up to disaster.

I would also work on bombproofing his attention in the face of distractions. 

If you don't have either / both of those in place as a foundational base, you're probably going to find that LLW will continue to be a problem and all of the gimmicky collars in the world, including prongs, won't help.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

"" I swear it would be a million times easier to train him as a sled dog than to walk nicely on the leash. It's almost like he enjoys pulling. ""

^^^^^ am happy to see your keeping a bit of humor, it's always healthy to laugh a little at the harder stages in our dogs lives to help get through them 

You have a healthy view point for the prong, and I think they are a good safety option for public...

I would like you to think of some creative FLASH games for (off leash) in the house and if you have fenced in back yard area too.. No training tool in the world is going to make a difference ... Training tools will keep him safe from making mistakes.. Duke has to do it on his own.. Off leash is the way to teach him.... . If his training responses are slow, distracted, floundering it would make sense that is what he is transferring to the outside. Flash games to sharpen up his responses... Think of 1,2, 3 red light.... fast paced , quick and sharp responses.... learning rapid drills of multiple task... My dogs were good at OB skills but the difference of my guys of laying down taking their time to go into a down position,, was huge in comparison of my trainers dogs who slammed them selves into a down position to the floor.. the difference was that I was rewarding mediocre responses... I never got past the introduction of teaching OB skills... and my dogs showed it... I had to up my game to sharpen what I had taught ... and when I did so did the dogs... I love a sharp militant quick response.... when I trained for it,, I got it... and I did it doing fast rapid drills... throwing treats or tugs at the floor at their paws just as they hit the ground for downs.. Dukes sounds like a dog that doesn't like being bored ...active mind going every where all the time... match him.. sit down, come, stop, stay. free throw a tug across the room to go chase bring back for a tug session and laugh.... 

just a thought to get fast flash responses to have to transfer to the outside world...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, darn. I missed the reactivity thing. Absolutely DO NOT use a prong on a reactive dog. You will pair the presence of another dog with discomfort when he reacts and that's not going to help the reactivity at ALL. See also: Disaster petpeeve mentioned.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

if you correct , harrass, beat senseless make a huge seen on any type collar you will cause a dog to transfer to the event of other dogs being negative... it wont be the prong collar that creates a negative but how the owner abuses the use of the collar on the dog in and during the event...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Well, no, not really. If the dog is on a prong and the dog lunges to the end of leash reacting, then the prong collar is going to do what prong collars do and tighten. That's going to hurt. That's not a deliberate action on part of the handler, that's the function of hte collar. I use a prong. I like prongs. It's still going to issue a 'correction' when the dog lunges to the end of it's leash in a fit of reactivity, it's going to pinch, it's going to hurt, and its' going to complicate the reactivity.

A reactive dog isn't the place to use one. Period. Has nothing to do with the handler 'harassing or beating' the dog or not. It has to do with a negative consequence being combined with another dog and since prongs work as, uh, prongs, there's not a blamed thing the handler can do to stop that being an aversive moment.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

if you haven't gained the intial training conditioning on a prong collar to adhere to pressure then you have lost the value and benefits of it being a training tool.. no reason to keep using it except to just hold on...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

If the prong is applying pressure, it hurts and is applying a correction. The closing of the prongs on a dog hurts - That is WHY THEY WORK. You can train to yield to that until you're blue in the face, it will not translate to a leash reactive dog in the face of another dog, it will lunge, it will hurt, and it will be a negative association to the other dogs and worsen reactivity. 

Ie: Don't do it with a reactive dog.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

CptJack said:


> If the prong is applying pressure, it hurts and is applying a correction. The closing of the prongs on a dog hurts - That is WHY THEY WORK. You can train to yield to that until you're blue in the face, it will not translate to a leash reactive dog in the face of another dog, it will lunge, it will hurt, and it will be a negative association to the other dogs and worsen reactivity.
> 
> Ie: Don't do it with a reactive dog.


Just curious... What did Thud lunge at? Not for reactive reasons I suppose?

I agree with a lot of BAT/LAT. It's hard to say without seeing the situation, but sounds like what you mentioned mudypony, that he might have learned to pull and come back for a treat, repeat ad nauseum. If you only communicate with the dog when it's doing what you don't want, it places more and more value on the negatives in a counter intuitive way. I think methods that focus on the appropriate reaction (be a tree, etc) NEED to be paired with focusing even more on when your dog IS walking nicely. And when he isn't, not just reeling him in and rewarding immediately or it learns to yo-yo. Pulling ahead? Sharp turn back around, walk unpredictably, reward after a period of being where you want it to be and continue rewarding, continue forward.... 
Also, if this is your biggest issue it might help to get rid of mealtimes and feed him his meals exclusively on walks, when he is walking nicely.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Just curious... What did Thud lunge at? Not for reactive reasons I suppose?


No, just a jerk. Squirrels, rabbits, butterflies, the river. Whatever. Perfect loose leash and then end of it and me either on my face or narrowly hanging on - but happy about it! He'd come back to it but it was a thing.


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

First of all just a small rant, I hate acronyms, 35 years of engineering with them blah!

The back pack is excellent. I just began using one a month ago. My dog carries 15% of her weight. It seems to change focus or attention and softens the reactivity to other dogs. 

So the prong. I like the idea presented of using the prong on a tab. I have my leash passed through the tab loop. The leash goes to a harness, the tab goes to the prong. For this dog, 80+ pounds, you don't need him dashing to the end of the leash especially if he is reactive to anything. He needs to be under your control close by you unless you release him with a command. 

Now, if he loses it seeing another dog you are just too close. You need to get farther away. Period. 80 pounds is a big dog but it's your choice so get used to it. When the dog is out of control you need to not yank on the prong, pickup the top of the harness along with the dogs front feet, reverse direction and get some space. You won't hurt the dog and you will divert his attention. He can't do very much with his front feet off the ground. Be calm no yelling or scolding the dog. You only need to go ten feet or so. I did this about four or five occasions. As soon as my dog felt me touch the harness she looked to me, I immediately gave a reward. You use a clicker so click reward. I don't use one but I think that is the procedure. 

The next step was to set the situation up so as we approached another dog I gave a very light tug on the prong with "watch me" command. Again use your clicker or just reward. It's taken months as we live in an apartment with about 75 dogs. Some dogs she tolerates others she hates. I'm now to where I can say "you need a treat?" When we start getting close. So I feed her a treat. The idea being to make passing other dogs is ok and rewarding. Nothing bad will happen.

The latest is to sit and watch other dogs. Start at a good distance then move closer. In our case the poop bag pole is a gathering place for others. We have to wait our turn so I have her sit and wait. If she gets antsy we just do a 180 and back off a ways. We sit and watch squirrls, rabbits, snakes and toads. Not charge after them. I give rewards when she looks up to me. 

Here is the only thing I got out of the reactivity class; calm, control, cure.

The bottom line here is you need to have your dog under strict control at all times. You make all the decisions not the dog. This is a big dog and you simply can't have him yanking you around. One day you will go down and possibly get hurt. This is not a dominance thing or pack leader thing it's more of a bond thing, the dog trusts you he can relax in tense situations for him. You are already doing this at home. Set up easy situations for success. The more of these you have the easier it will be.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

You have tried other training tools and have not had success. You have to ask yourself why? Maybe you could have a friend film you and your dog to see from another view what is really going on. Sometimes seeing a situation in a different angle might give you answers to your problem. When I use a head collar on a dog I will use two leashes at first. One is attached to the head collar and one is attached to the regular collar. I do this because I have found that dogs tolerate a head collar better if it is not having pressure on it all the time. If you are worried about no leash attached to a regular collar and fear the head collar will come off, I have seen owners take some paracord and attach the head collar with the flat collar with the piece of paracord snapped onto the collar. 
For the prong collar before you go out and buy yet another tool, see if you can borrow one from a friend to see if it is the 'miracle' answer for your problem. I have seen owners with reactive dogs who have tried other tools put a prong on the dog and the dog stopped the reactivity scene when around other dogs. 
At least you are trying to correct this behavior. I see owners whose dogs constantly bark and lunge at other dogs and seem to think it looks cool and impressive. The small mind of that owner irks me so much.


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## Bentwings (Mar 30, 2015)

Getting someone to video you is a great idea! 

Barking and lunging dogs are out everyday at our appartment, usually attached in pairs to little old ladies. Nothing against little old ladies. The comment I heard was the dogs are being protective.


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## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

Just wanted to check in and let you guys know that I'll give an in-depth reply either tonight or tomorrow! Been extremely busy the past few days!

A few quick things though until then...

The pulling HAS improved since I adopted him but just not as much as I want it to, I guess. It seems like I'll never be able to wean him off feeding treats like a pez-dispenser. Then there are times ALL THE THINGS are so distracting that I can't get his attention back on me. I guess that means I need to double down and work on proofing with distractions and continue our LAT training. It's just a bummer that on-leash walks are his main form of exercise. His off-leash skills are questionable at best (his hound dog nose gets the best of him), and I have no safe, fenced in areas to use at the moment. I do get over to my cousin's place with huge yard and let him get his crazies out on a lunge line. The pulling wouldn't be so bad if he was just on-leash until we reached wherever we were heading to.

Regarding his reactivity, it has improved tremendously! His reactivity is probably the number one reason why I haven't even considered a prong collar. However, he has not had a reactive incident with me for over a month *knock on wood.* Basically, since he's been wearing his backpack he hasn't been reactive, still focuses on other dogs but no crazy cujo moments! 

Anyways, I'll be back soon with a "real" reply!


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## shamrockmommy (Dec 30, 2009)

The first paragraph that CptJack wrote is exactly what I did with echo. She was out of control as an adolescent pup and the careful use of a prong collar has made her a wonderful walking buddy now. And its use was temporary. 
No guilt whatsoever.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

mudypony said:


> Just wanted to check in and let you guys know that I'll give an in-depth reply either tonight or tomorrow! Been extremely busy the past few days!
> 
> A few quick things though until then...
> 
> ...


If it works for you and your dog, great. The 'experts' often disagree, and the devils in the details make a lot of generalizations false, at least some of the time. Add entrenched ideological positions and it gets really hard to find the truth for your particular case.

In-depth reply would be great. It's only an anecdote. Anecdotes prove nothing. But sometimes they are good for challenging preconceived notions.


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## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

CptJack said:


> IF the head collar is working for you, you are probably not going to get better control with a prong. I do use a prong with Thud and my 'back up' method with it is that I hook the leash to his collar and the prong, or attach the prong to the 'dead link' so it doesn't engage at this stage, but I definitely used it when he was being difficult (ie: huge, lunging suddenly and in bad weather). I had to do SOMETHING if I was going to walk him anywhere; it was just flat out dangerous. I don't have any guilt or regret about it, either.
> 
> The thing is, he didn't pull steadily, he lunged and that made the halter something that made me really, really uncomfortable and worried about his neck. I don't think a prong is a bad thing - and if you get one please go have one fitted properly in store by a trainer, in person - but I also don't know that it's going to help you any more than what you've already gotten, or give you better safety/control.
> 
> One thing besides the prong that helped him enormously was to switch out his leash for a training tab or traffic leash. It kept him close to me and if he couldn't physically engage by going 4-6 feet away, he tended to keep his BRAIN on me, too. But I don't need leash walking for exercise. I need leash walking to get TO exercise (ie: he exercises off leash, so him being kept right next to me was not an issue, since his running and sniffing and exploring happened without the leash).


That's what I was thinking, too. If the head collar works okay, would the prong work any better? I guess the head collar just drives me crazy sometimes. If we're not constantly moving / doing something, he'll try to paw it off. He does seem to like the new head collar I have for him (the Indi head collar) better though, plus it's way easier to put on than the previous one I had. I guess my main concern is that if he doesn't improve more come winter that I'm going to experience a few wipeouts on the ice. He does occasionally lunge too (mainly at birds), which could make walks in the winter flat out dangerous.

I also ordered a training tab, which arrived a couple days ago, and I'm going to start using that too, paired with a regular leash. Hoping that will help some! It is unfortunate that walking is Duke's main source of exercise. It would be so much easier if we just had a short walk to somewhere he could be off-leash. Hopefully when my lease is up in a year in a half I'll finally have somewhere to safely work with him off-leash (next house WILL have a fenced in yard).

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petpeeve said:


> I'd work on the reactivity first of all, using a simple flat collar and following the LAT protocol or similar. Leash reactivity plus a prong could add up to disaster.
> 
> I would also work on bombproofing his attention in the face of distractions.
> 
> If you don't have either / both of those in place as a foundational base, you're probably going to find that LLW will continue to be a problem and all of the gimmicky collars in the world, including prongs, won't help.





CptJack said:


> Oh, darn. I missed the reactivity thing. Absolutely DO NOT use a prong on a reactive dog. You will pair the presence of another dog with discomfort when he reacts and that's not going to help the reactivity at ALL. See also: Disaster petpeeve mentioned.


His reactivity has improved leaps in bounds. It's been over a month since he reacted on leash, again ever since he's been wearing his backpack. The other day we even came across a black lab barking it's head off in a balcony and had a little dog rush out of it's front door after us, and he was all business as usual. I'm sure he would've reacted if I didn't rush to get us away from both situations. The LAT training I've done has helped a bunch too. I think he's now associating other dogs with shovelfuls of treats haha.

His reactivity is also the main reason I haven't even considered using a prong collar. I would hate for him to react at another dog and then experience the discomfort from a prong collar. 

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PatriciafromCO said:


> "" I swear it would be a million times easier to train him as a sled dog than to walk nicely on the leash. It's almost like he enjoys pulling. ""
> 
> ^^^^^ am happy to see your keeping a bit of humor, it's always healthy to laugh a little at the harder stages in our dogs lives to help get through them
> 
> ...


Definitely have to keep a sense of humor! I don't think I could've gotten through the first year of having Duke without it haha!

The flash games is an excellent suggestion! I've started implementing that in our training, and it's helping a ton. He's already quick to respond but he could use some sharpening up in some areas. I really wish I had a fenced in yard, so I could practice the flash games in a semi distraction free zone before trying them on walks where there's just about every distraction you could think of. 

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Canyx said:


> I agree with a lot of BAT/LAT. It's hard to say without seeing the situation, but sounds like what you mentioned mudypony, that he might have learned to pull and come back for a treat, repeat ad nauseum. If you only communicate with the dog when it's doing what you don't want, it places more and more value on the negatives in a counter intuitive way. I think methods that focus on the appropriate reaction (be a tree, etc) NEED to be paired with focusing even more on when your dog IS walking nicely. And when he isn't, not just reeling him in and rewarding immediately or it learns to yo-yo. Pulling ahead? Sharp turn back around, walk unpredictably, reward after a period of being where you want it to be and continue rewarding, continue forward....
> Also, if this is your biggest issue it might help to get rid of mealtimes and feed him his meals exclusively on walks, when he is walking nicely.


I've been implementing tons of LAT training since he first started reacting around last December. It's been a slow process but seems to be really showing results in the last month or two. I only tried pairing the feel of pressure on the leash with a return to my side and a treat for a little while. Thought I'd try something different but obviously didn't work so went back to the usual rewarding him when he remains by my side. I've also done the sharp turn with a reward for remaining where I want him to be but if there's anything distracting or the smallest lag in treats he's back to pulling. Some walks we basically walk in circles the entire time with the constant sharp turn arounds. The neighbors probably think I'm nuts... 

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Bentwings said:


> First of all just a small rant, I hate acronyms, 35 years of engineering with them blah!
> 
> The back pack is excellent. I just began using one a month ago. My dog carries 15% of her weight. It seems to change focus or attention and softens the reactivity to other dogs.
> 
> ...


The backpack has been a lifesaver really. He's never reacted while wearing it (it must just put him in a completely different mindset), plus we get more bang for our buck on walks exercise-wise.

I also live in an apartment with lots of dogs, so almost every walk/potty break we encounter another dog or at least another person. I think the biggest thing is me relaxing as well and not worrying about him reacting. If I'm relaxed, he's more prone to relax too. I also want to work on him watching dogs at a distance he's comfortable with, but it's hard finding someone with a dog that is comfortable helping me out. He doesn't react to any dogs he already knows, so it's hard to find someone with a dog he hasn't had a playdate with.

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luv mi pets said:


> You have tried other training tools and have not had success. You have to ask yourself why? Maybe you could have a friend film you and your dog to see from another view what is really going on. Sometimes seeing a situation in a different angle might give you answers to your problem. When I use a head collar on a dog I will use two leashes at first. One is attached to the head collar and one is attached to the regular collar. I do this because I have found that dogs tolerate a head collar better if it is not having pressure on it all the time. If you are worried about no leash attached to a regular collar and fear the head collar will come off, I have seen owners take some paracord and attach the head collar with the flat collar with the piece of paracord snapped onto the collar.
> For the prong collar before you go out and buy yet another tool, see if you can borrow one from a friend to see if it is the 'miracle' answer for your problem. I have seen owners with reactive dogs who have tried other tools put a prong on the dog and the dog stopped the reactivity scene when around other dogs.
> At least you are trying to correct this behavior. I see owners whose dogs constantly bark and lunge at other dogs and seem to think it looks cool and impressive. The small mind of that owner irks me so much.


I think the lack of improvement is due to a forced break in walks during the winter. It was just too icy for the majority of December to April to safely go on walks, so we were back to almost square one in April. I do think I'm going to try the two leash method for sure. I think he might tolerate the head collar a little better that way.

I think I'm just really curious how he'd do in a prong collar. I've heard of them working wonders on strong pullers, and people using them on their dogs for a short while and then being able to return to a normal collar. However, I don't want him to experience discomfort if/when he reacts and have another negative association with seeing other dogs. I definitely don't think this behavior is "cool." 

-------

I think I'm just going to stick with the head collar for the time being and really work hard to at least lesson the pulling, as well as continuing to work on the reactivity. Come winter time, I'll re-evaluate. If he still has a tendency to pull and lunge, I might have to try the prong to keep me safe on icy sidewalks.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

So Mudpony...I'd love to see a larger picture of your hound (Duke), because the picture at the end is small, but I see your tag line is of VERY POWERFUL hound type breeds. Big, powerful hounds. Such hounds, in general are not very popular, thus many people don't understand them. It would take too long to explain, but when I wanted to enter the "dog show world" I was so disgusted by many of the breeds I WAS familiar with in the herding and sporting world, I took an opportunity to own a show quality, HOUND breed who, at the time, was still uncorrupted. MAJOR change in ME regarding adaptation to what the public regards as "dogs."

So...here we are two pages worth of people telling you how to use "tools" to manage your dog. The point being, you are wondering if a prong collar will work. I'm very familiar with the prong collar, both with a popular herding breed, and with hounds. You have people talking about harnesses....lift the front feet...they can't "do" anything if the front feet aren't on the ground....but that doesn't TEACH the dog anything. And that most certainly is not a good recipe for a peaceful walk if you are "waiting" for that moment that you have to exert a lot of energy. Admittedly, I actually had to look up "LAT" and "BAT" training acronyms....and when I read them...oh...just people wanting to make money on what they WANT people to believe is some "new age" training technique. It is NOTHING new. It is simply just re-packaged. 

So, here's the deal...my early life was with herding/sporting dogs...they pretty much follow the rules of all the studies done regarding training. Great ambassadors for LAT and BAT or for whatever acronym will eventually be invented. Heck...I remember in the early 1990's attending seminars for obedience training given by the "elite" and a LOT of people are there with hounds....screeeeeeech....nope....those elite people DID NOT TALK ABOUT the weiner dogs or the beagles or the **** hounds or the afghans or salukis or the whippets...nope....their methods works with goldens, and borders, and shelties...etc etc. In my "heyday" of obedience competition, I knew a LOT of the elite people who were successful with their goldens, and borders, and shelties....and they made an ACTUAL EFFORT to try and train a hound to the standard of the aforementioned breeds. For the most part...they couldn't do it...because they simply couldn't truly adapt to a hound mentality. And even if they succeeded once....that was enough....whew...they got away with it! 

Hounds will scoff at "devices." They are hard-wired for independent thinking. YOU have to be smarter in a way they believe it. Someone said it is not about leadership or dominance....it is simply about "bonding." Well, I am sorry, that is hog-wash....dogs in the wild aren't looking for "bonding" moments...they look for structure...they conform to the strict rules of ONE dog in charge...along with his mate. There IS a hierarchy among dogs...and it doesn't ALWAYS mean brute force, but sometimes it DOES. A lessor WOLF cannot "ASSUME" to eat choice meats from a kill without heavy penalties from the top wolf...the punishment is swift and remembered. Dog TRAINING is not the same as managing DOG BEHAVIOR. There is a REASON, Mudpony, that you feel like a Pez Dispenser...it is because you ARE a Pez dispenser. You are confusing a behavioral problem with a training problem. A prong collar is not a solution.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Dogs are not wolves. 

Dogs do not work or function like wolves, particularly hounds. 

Wolves are not violent with each other. They tend to go 'belly up' VOLUNTARILY, and are composed, in nature, of a family unit. The 'lower wolf' is a juvenile one. So yeah, there are some rules. Easy ones based on immaturity. As they get mature the younger ones leave.

Dogs 'in the wild' (ie: feral) do not really form packs the way we think of them - lose alliances to attain food/resources, but then they divide again rather than 'sharing out' things or other aspects of communal living. 

Dogs are more scavenger than predator. 

And frankly all the top dog stuff in the world won't help you. Hounds, in particular, DO work well in huge groups and do so peacefully. Because of the nature of the work and their breeding. Find me a top dog in a group of hunting beagles and I'll laugh at you. They mob the food dish at the same time and that is that. 

A prong isn't an answer because it's a management tool but you can't teach if you can't manage. 

Dominance theory isn't even a management tool, it's ridiculous and makes people look like gigantic, uneducated fools and clowns. It's only useful for making other people groan and/or laugh at the ignorance of others. 

Fortunately I know enough about the OP here to know she knows better. 

(I also suspect her dog is a shepherd mix but that's irrelevant).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think it's funny when people write a novel about what ISN'T the solution without actually saying what they think the solution IS .


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I think it's funny when people write a novel about what ISN'T the solution without actually saying what they think the solution IS .


Aw come on, read between the lines (and the post history). The solution is dominance and force and making the dog do things.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Aw come on, read between the lines (and the post history). The solution is dominance and force and making the dog do things.


I learned a long time ago that you can't MAKE anyone do/not do anything, you can only make them WANT to do it/not do it. And punishment rarely works that way. I have a cousin who is particularly stubborn and not especially small or timid. His father, my uncle, is not adverse to beating people into what he wants them to do. Guess what? My cousin has never in his life (or at least since age 2) done anything his father wants him to do/not do. He'll do the opposite every time out of sheer cussedness. But if you're nice to him, he'll move heaven and earth for you. Punishment is manipulative and people/dogs usually see right through it.

Plus, I know a lot of guys who follow the "brute force" ideology in dog training. Their dogs are not better behaved. They just get to feel big and strong because they hurt someone smaller.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't advocate harshness, much less physical punishment in most cases (obviously), but I'm not entirely opposed to aversive techniques with people or children. That means my kids get jerky for too long, they lose privileges. With my dogs that usually means withholding a reward. 

All that said, I don't really think praise/reward is any less manipulative. It's still... well, manipulation, it's just safer and relies on making want TO instead of want NOT to, or making something desirable that wouldn't be otherwise. I consider it the absolute ideal, best way to go about things. I think it makes things more pleasant for the dog and owner, and I think it builds relationship and energy and bonds and all kinds of good things. Still manipulating. 

Teaching the dog not to pee in your house by taking it out constantly is manipulation. 

I don't think there's a training technique out there that isn't *manipulative*. It's training. By its very nature it is manipulation.

All that said, agreed. You can't MAKE living beings do much with force.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> So Mudpony...I'd love to see a larger picture of your hound (Duke), because the picture at the end is small, but I see your tag line is of VERY POWERFUL hound type breeds. Big, powerful hounds. Such hounds, in general are not very popular, thus many people don't understand them. It would take too long to explain, but when I wanted to enter the "dog show world" I was so disgusted by many of the breeds I WAS familiar with in the herding and sporting world, I took an opportunity to own a show quality, HOUND breed who, at the time, was still uncorrupted. MAJOR change in ME regarding adaptation to what the public regards as "dogs."
> 
> So...here we are two pages worth of people telling you how to use "tools" to manage your dog. The point being, you are wondering if a prong collar will work. I'm very familiar with the prong collar, both with a popular herding breed, and with hounds. You have people talking about harnesses....lift the front feet...they can't "do" anything if the front feet aren't on the ground....but that doesn't TEACH the dog anything. And that most certainly is not a good recipe for a peaceful walk if you are "waiting" for that moment that you have to exert a lot of energy. Admittedly, I actually had to look up "LAT" and "BAT" training acronyms....and when I read them...oh...just people wanting to make money on what they WANT people to believe is some "new age" training technique. It is NOTHING new. It is simply just re-packaged.
> 
> ...


What am I looking at here.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> What am I looking at here.


An incoherent rant bashing positive training, a bunch of trainers, and touting dominance. Also a side of 'hounds are super special and require super special training techniques'. I think. 

Oh and a lot of ellipses.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I don't think there's a training technique out there that isn't *manipulative*. It's training. By its very nature it is manipulation.


Heh, yeah, when talking about people who punish their kids for being "manipulative", I have pointed out that all human interaction is manipulation, so if a child is learning to be human, of course they'll learn to be manipulative. But, um, harsh punishment is extra manipulative?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Heh, yeah, when talking about people who punish their kids for being "manipulative", I have pointed out that all human interaction is manipulation, so if a child is learning to be human, of course they'll learn to be manipulative. But, um, harsh punishment is extra manipulative?


Harsh punishment is coercive, I think. Instead of just manipulative.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> So Mudpony...I'd love to see a larger picture of your hound (Duke), because the picture at the end is small, but I see your tag line is of VERY POWERFUL hound type breeds. Big, powerful hounds. Such hounds, in general are not very popular, thus many people don't understand them. It would take too long to explain, but when I wanted to enter the "dog show world" I was so disgusted by many of the breeds I WAS familiar with in the herding and sporting world, I took an opportunity to own a show quality, HOUND breed who, at the time, was still uncorrupted. MAJOR change in ME regarding adaptation to what the public regards as "dogs."
> 
> So...here we are two pages worth of people telling you how to use "tools" to manage your dog. The point being, you are wondering if a prong collar will work. I'm very familiar with the prong collar, both with a popular herding breed, and with hounds. You have people talking about harnesses....lift the front feet...they can't "do" anything if the front feet aren't on the ground....but that doesn't TEACH the dog anything. And that most certainly is not a good recipe for a peaceful walk if you are "waiting" for that moment that you have to exert a lot of energy. Admittedly, I actually had to look up "LAT" and "BAT" training acronyms....and when I read them...oh...just people wanting to make money on what they WANT people to believe is some "new age" training technique. It is NOTHING new. It is simply just re-packaged.
> 
> ...


576 words and all it leaves me thinking is "whut?" 

I read this three times trying to make sense of it.... I swear I think if I tried to read it a fourth time I would have had a seizure.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also who is making money off of LAT? It's all over the internet for free lol.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Long shot here, but have you tried reverse-luring instead of pez-dispensing?


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## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

I'm just going to let everyone else respond to whatever that was that PaddiB posted. And just as an fyi, I learned about LAT/BAT training for FREE reading this forum, and it is working wonders with my dog's reactivity. Also, as CptJack said, dogs are NOT wolves, and my dog isn't some special dog that won't respond to positive training because he might have some hound in him (I also suspect he has shepherd in him, as well as some great dane or cur-type breed).

-------



chimunga said:


> Long shot here, but have you tried reverse-luring instead of pez-dispensing?


I have never even heard of reverse-luring, but thank you so much for mentioning it!! 

I just looked it up, and I'm very intrigued. It seems like it would be useful in other areas of training as well. Do you know any sources that would be useful for helping me implement this into our training sessions?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> A prong collar is not a solution.


 That much I'll agree with. Strongly even. 

The rest of the post? mmmyea, no. Hard if not impossible to agree with drivel that's neither here nor there.


By the way, isn't the small "picture at the end" nothing more than a stock pita pata graphic? looks like it to me. Hang on. Just to make sure, first lemme clean my computer screen of all the coffee that was sprayed there whilst reading .... 
.... aaaaaand ... yep, definitely pita pata.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Let's watch the language folks, swearing is NOT allowed in the forum, and editing posts to remove swears tends to make mod's cranky.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

I will just leave it at this. 
PaddiB, I would HATE to be your dog.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

mudypony said:


> I have never even heard of reverse-luring, but thank you so much for mentioning it!!
> 
> I just looked it up, and I'm very intrigued. It seems like it would be useful in other areas of training as well. Do you know any sources that would be useful for helping me implement this into our training sessions?


I am definitely not an expert. I've just used it to help increase the duration of a command. This is pretty much the technique I use:


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## mudypony (Jul 31, 2014)

chimunga said:


> I am definitely not an expert. I've just used it to help increase the duration of a command. This is pretty much the technique I use:


Thanks for the video! More research on this is now on this weekend's to-do list!


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

I'm so very sorry that oddly, people interpreted my aversion to the prong collar to mean that I advocated the use of brute force. That logic typically would mean I love it's use...which isn't the case. I don't hit my dogs, I don't throw my dogs on the ground...whatever tortures it seems people think I use. In fact, I believe the less "hands-on" the better. Perhaps more than any other species, dogs will look at us....they will stare at us when we stare back at them....wild wolves won't do that with humans, they do it with other wolves. Dogs do it with humans. Most other animal species won't do what dogs do. Dogs are what they are because they READ us...and in fact, they probably know our will better than we do...because if that wasn't true...why would a human ever invent a prong collar? Or a choke chain, or a "shark collar." 

If you want to go back to pure training...dig up Karen Pryor...and TRULY learn about operant conditioning and true clicker training. Look up the Bailey's and their chicken training. Everything else rides on them and a few others, and too many these days don't do it justice. But as much as I believe in THEM...and in the TRAINING...it won't prepare dog owners for certain BEHAVIORAL issues which crop up in DOGS. Which is different than behavioral issues that crop up in dolphins or chickens or horses....for those things, you need to have an understanding in species. So if you suddenly have dog fights or counter surfing...there are other issues at stake. 

So...sorry some people think I am somehow cruel, or wouldn't want to be my dog, whatever...my dogs enjoy a life without assaults on their necks, they enjoy not being thrown on the ground, they enjoy knowing they can enjoy food in the presence of other dogs...etc, etc. I just watched the "reverse luring" video...great example of basic clicker training. Why the new name? What is the "reverse luring" aspect? This is my issue with LAT and BAT...it is nothing new. Operant conditioning is operant conditioning.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> and it doesn't ALWAYS mean brute force, but sometimes it DOES.





> I'm so very sorry that oddly, people interpreted my aversion to the prong collar to mean that I advocated the use of brute force


I sort of have a guess about why people thought that .

I don't think anyone said BAT/LAT or reverse luring is new. It doesn't matter what you call something---it is what it is---but being more precise in description is never a bad thing. "Operant conditioning" is a broad description and being more exact about what aspect of operant conditioning someone is working on isn't bad.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I sort of have a guess about why people thought that .
> 
> I don't think anyone said BAT/LAT or reverse luring is new. It doesn't matter what you call something---it is what it is---but being more precise in description is never a bad thing. "Operant conditioning" is a broad description and being more exact about what aspect of operant conditioning someone is working on isn't bad.


This!!!

And when Willowy, JohnnyBandit, Sassafras, CaptJack...... ALL agree.... That is a monumental thing...

Heck they should make it a national holiday.....


Adding to what Willowy said.... It is NOT so much a matter of folks Mis interpreting what you are saying. It is a matter of folks just not being able to interpret you at all..... 

You talk in circles, go off on some wild tangent of something you perceive is wrong with the dog community, you talk about something completely off topic, and then you contradict yourself. ALL in the SAME post.......


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## hookilau (Jun 10, 2015)

Sorry this is off topic, but, can someone tell me what they are training for in the reverse luring video?


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Willowy said:


> I don't think anyone said BAT/LAT or reverse luring is new. It doesn't matter what you call something---it is what it is---but being more precise in description is never a bad thing. "Operant conditioning" is a broad description and being more exact about what aspect of operant conditioning someone is working on isn't bad.


Willowy, thank you for your (mostly) non-sarcastic, patient reply. I understand what you are saying, and I'll explain that below, but I don't agree that simply because "operant conditioning is a broad description" is a reason why people shouldn't actually UNDERSTAND operant conditioning. You can't just put a label on only ONE of the four basics of "operant conditioning" and say that any given training technique is sound (or in your words "precise") when, if they don't understand the broad, I think they'll be left clueless when the precise doesn't work. And the reason we all are here talking about this, is because the "precise" HASN'T worked. The original poster said he/she was following the LAT and other more "friendly" terms, and yet, she is still considering a prong.

After my previous reply, I called a friend of mine who lives far away but who is more "up to date" on current "trends" than I am, and I wanted to know if she had heard about LAT and BAT....and yes she had and also said she heard of CAT...(something to do with so-called "aggressive" dogs). She actually said what you did above...those terms are a more "exact" description for TRAINING TECHNIQUES. And while she herself, like me, doesn't have to resort to such things, and her dogs, like mine, while some may not be "formally trained" (we are both past the age of competing) our dogs BEHAVE well. Yet, she knows of many people who have dogs that she has bred, who AREN'T into "understanding" anything, but simply want an easy way to walk their dogs, so they use a prong. But these are also people who don't post to forums. These are people who have never heard of LAT or BAT or any other thing. 

I think when someone takes the time to post to a forum, that they are interested enough to take the time to LEARN the broader picture. Yes, understanding Operant Conditioning isn't easy, but it is invaluable. It took me MONTHS if not years, WHILE I was competitively competing with dogs, attending seminars, reading countless books and magazine articles, subscribing to publications, and mostly, developing relationships with people who did have the knowledge, to become comfortable understanding ALL aspects of operant conditioning and how to correctly apply ALL applications when the situation dictates. All of that while also studying how canines think...how they evolve, why they are the way they are. 

Bottom line..it is NEVER as easy as conforming to a so-called "precise" technique. But consider this...if it is NOT important for people to grasp operant conditioning...and here we are with a person who has hitched her wagon to LAT...and now she is "considering the prong"....wouldn't it be prudent for he/she to actually understand the OTHER components of operant conditioning in order for him/her to properly understand and utilize "devices" that will now incorporate positive punishment and negative reinforcement?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> Willowy, thank you for your (mostly) non-sarcastic, patient reply. I understand what you are saying, and I'll explain that below, but I don't agree that simply because "operant conditioning is a broad description" is a reason why people shouldn't actually UNDERSTAND operant conditioning. You can't just put a label on only ONE of the four basics of "operant conditioning" and say that any given training technique is sound (or in your words "precise") when, if they don't understand the broad, I think they'll be left clueless when the precise doesn't work. And the reason we all are here talking about this, is because the "precise" HASN'T worked. The original poster said he/she was following the LAT and other more "friendly" terms, and yet, she is still considering a prong.
> 
> After my previous reply, I called a friend of mine who lives far away but who is more "up to date" on current "trends" than I am, and I wanted to know if she had heard about LAT and BAT....and yes she had and also said she heard of CAT...(something to do with so-called "aggressive" dogs). She actually said what you did above...those terms are a more "exact" description for TRAINING TECHNIQUES. And while she herself, like me, doesn't have to resort to such things, and her dogs, like mine, while some may not be "formally trained" (we are both past the age of competing) our dogs BEHAVE well. Yet, she knows of many people who have dogs that she has bred, who AREN'T into "understanding" anything, but simply want an easy way to walk their dogs, so they use a prong. But these are also people who don't post to forums. These are people who have never heard of LAT or BAT or any other thing.
> 
> ...


You are still talking in circles, going off on a tangent, and contradicting yourself.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

It is really not that difficult to understand operant conditioning. 

You can add or remove things to increase the likelihood of a specific behavior.
You can add or remove things to decrease the likelihood of a specific behavior.

There. Operant conditioning.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

sassafras said:


> It is really not that difficult to understand operant conditioning.
> 
> You can add or remove things to increase the likelihood of a specific behavior.
> You can add or remove things to decrease the likelihood of a specific behavior.
> ...


Stop making so much sense, Sass


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> It is really not that difficult to understand operant conditioning.
> 
> You can add or remove things to increase the likelihood of a specific behavior.
> You can add or remove things to decrease the likelihood of a specific behavior.
> ...


You do not call friends that live far away that are more up on current trends in operant conditioning?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Well, I was curious so I did a websearch for "CAT" including some other OC / training / search terms to go along with it. You can imagine the range of results, but still, nothing specific.

Hmmm probably just some get-rich-quick trainer who simply repackaged some basic terms, lol. 

Still like to know for sure, though. Maybe I need to call someone too.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

And here's a thing, too. It's all well and good to understand operant conditioning, but if someone has a specific problem I'm not going to say to them "Oh your dog has terrible leash reactivity? Just use the principles of operant conditioning!" because that's a completely useless thing to say. It would be like saying "Oh, you have a leak in your kitchen sink? Just use plumbing to fix it!"

But if I say "Oh you could do these specific exercises called LAT and open bar/closed bar and here's why they work" then I've given them someone concretely useful to do. Things like LAT or BAT aren't learning theory, no. They are specific exercises that utilize the principles of learning theory. Most people don't live in theoretical land, they live in the real world where they need actual things to do.

And who cares what people call them or if they're new or not if they help people? No reason to go down the "kids these days think they know everything" path, I think most of us over a certain age realize that each generation (including ours) independently makes "discoveries" that weren't/aren't actually all that new. We all did/do it, who cares? It's just part of the human experience and isn't a legitimate reason to criticize something or someone IMO.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Well, I was curious so I did a websearch for "CAT" including some other OC / training / search terms to go along with it. You can imagine the range of results, but still, nothing specific.
> 
> Hmmm probably just some get-rich-quick trainer who simply repackaged some basic terms, lol.
> 
> Still like to know for sure, though. Maybe I need to call someone too.


CAT is a real thing. Having the real name - Constructional Aggressive Therapy- would have helped you get some actual results. It isn't radically different than BAT, but it's not a get rich scheme (lol). It's not overly promoted, it's not all over the web like LAT/BAT, and you're probably going to hate it because it basically relies on the dog reacting to start with. It IS basically BAT in many ways, needs a professional, isn't really all that positive, but no there's an actual study tied to it, with some tracked results and very little paid material available to you. 

http://www.caniscool.com/Campus/courses/MEDIATHEQUE/document/E-Books/PDF/CAT-BAT-thesis.pdf

There is the thesis. There are a few other websites, a few videos, a DVD seminar marketed to dog trainers that costs less than a silver Fenzi class (only paid material I could find), and a few youtube things. I wouldn't know it existed if I hadn't had a discussion about it with my trainer, as CAT relates to BAT and LAT. 

That said, I agree with Sass: It doesn't MATTER what they're based on and if it's new. It matters that it gives people things that they can do.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

petpeeve said:


> Well, I was curious so I did a websearch for "CAT" including some other OC / training / search terms to go along with it. You can imagine the range of results, but still, nothing specific.
> 
> Hmmm probably just some get-rich-quick trainer who simply repackaged some basic terms, lol.
> 
> Still like to know for sure, though. Maybe I need to call someone too.


I've actually heard of it before now but I forget where, LOL. But it is an actual thing. It stands for Constructional Aggression Treatment.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I've actually heard of it before now but I forget where, LOL. But it is an actual thing. It stands for Constructional Aggression Treatment.


Therapy  But yeah, that. 

For people who aren't interested in the pdf, it is basically like BAT except that you really rely on the dog reacting to start with and the trigger leaves, rather than the reactive dog. You introduce the trigger, the dog reacts. You let the dog react - lunge, bark, growl, flail, whatever. Once the dog (unprompted) offers any behavior other than reactive stuff the trigger (person, dog) is taken away. It relies on being sure your dog is reacting in an attempt to make whatever go away not desire to play, it relies on a decoy dog who actually will not react back, and IMO it absolutely needs a professional, but it's still pretty basic learning theory, yes.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

sassafras said:


> It is really not that difficult to understand operant conditioning.
> 
> You can add or remove things to increase the likelihood of a specific behavior.
> You can add or remove things to decrease the likelihood of a specific behavior.
> ...


Yes, of course, anybody can look that up and write it that way, and think it is simple. Actually applying it...meaning with real every day people and every day dogs is not so simple. I had already looked up LAT...terribly simplistic and may apply to basically mentally healthy dogs, but good luck with a real challenge. I realized I hadn't looked up BAT...wow...I found that rather odd. So LAT is simplistic for healthy dogs...BAT is meant to "empower" basically fearful, aggressive, and frustrated dogs (according to the website). Both of these techniques stray FAR from the reality of actual operant conditioning. 

Both LAT and BAT will ultimately set up GOOD people with GOOD dogs for another saying: "What we think we are teaching our dogs, is not what our dogs are actually learning." LAT and BAT doesn't require people to understand anything. Those two very different "techniques" despite the fact they happen to rhyme with each other, have nothing to do with understanding operant conditioning as a WHOLE. I've watched Karen Pryor's tapes with abused horses, using the principles of TRUE operant conditioning and actually HEALING those horses...and not using "tricks" such as LAT, or some sort of PETA-based "empowerment" angle such as BAT. Of course, horses are prey animals and dogs are predatory, but the SCIENCE of truly understanding it is the same...and truly understanding ALL aspects of operant conditioning, makes working between dogs, and horses, and chickens and dolphins applicable. 

I took the time to watch videos regarding the whole "BAT" concept and they use terms such as "attraction" versus "repulsion." Well, of course PEOPLE are going to respond to those WORDS, because those WORDS mean something to people. But people who actually spend their life training animals actually understand those terms mean something very different to animals. What the BAT people don't address is unwanted attraction. They also don't understand that many times wanted attraction can be ACHIEVED through repulsion. THUSLY...sassafras, yep, your words seem simple, but application is another thing. 

People might THINK they are removing or adding something to either increase or decrease a behavior...but when the dog doesn't react to that simplistic/cavalier attitude....what is the next recourse? Is the DOG wrong? Or perhaps, God forbid...the person doesn't really "grasp" the ENTIRE concept of operant conditioning and are relying on shortcuts. Oh, and just to be clear? When I talk of "repulsion" that means through my years of rescue with damaged dogs, and my years of training healthy dogs...that simply means, at least with dogs (and my horse friends also agree), the natural inclination of these animals is to do the opposite of what we think we want. This is why dogs pull on the leash. But with damaged animals...once trust has been established...you don't pull them to you, you push (repulse) them away...they will do the opposite...they come in. BAT would want you to put a negative connotation on the word "repulse" but in fact, it can be very likely the most humane thing you can do with an animal. I've taken in dogs NUMB from their environment...gentle repulsion at the right time makes them actually turn TOWARD the person, rather than away. THAT is total understanding of operant conditioning...not just reading the words, but understanding the application.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So what are YOU doing to help people understand the TRUR application of operant conditioning as a WHOLE? With all the writing it would be nice to actually explain that kind of stuff for those of us who have to rely on "tricks and shortcuts". 

I'm pretty sure people have used LAT on dogs who are a "real challenge". I'm using a casual, loose sort of LAT with my new dog (I'm not ready to buckle down and do anything seriously yet) and she's already improved a lot. And I wouldn't call her mentally healthy . So, yeah, don't knock
it 'til you've tried it. 

So you don't like simplistic dog training and you don't like complicated dog training. I don't really know what's left .

Also, well, I have the BAT book but I lent it to my cousin. Her dog is a hot mess. But I flipped through it first. I don't think you understand anything about it, and I only have a flip-through understanding . I'm pretty sure they don't use "repulse" to mean anything with negative connotations. It just means walking away from the trigger. I'm also pretty sure the main focus is on understanding your dog and understanding how to help them learn how to interact with their environment. I'm sorry you don't like the word "empowerment"; maybe you'd prefer "control"?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> Yes, of course, anybody can look that up and write it that way, and think it is simple.


That's because it IS simple.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> Yes, of course, anybody can look that up and write it that way, and think it is simple. Actually applying it...meaning with real every day people and every day dogs is not so simple. I had already looked up LAT...terribly simplistic and may apply to basically mentally healthy dogs, but good luck with a real challenge. I realized I hadn't looked up BAT...wow...I found that rather odd. So LAT is simplistic for healthy dogs...BAT is meant to "empower" basically fearful, aggressive, and frustrated dogs (according to the website). Both of these techniques stray FAR from the reality of actual operant conditioning.
> 
> Both LAT and BAT will ultimately set up GOOD people with GOOD dogs for another saying: "What we think we are teaching our dogs, is not what our dogs are actually learning." LAT and BAT doesn't require people to understand anything. Those two very different "techniques" despite the fact they happen to rhyme with each other, have nothing to do with understanding operant conditioning as a WHOLE. I've watched Karen Pryor's tapes with abused horses, using the principles of TRUE operant conditioning and actually HEALING those horses...and not using "tricks" such as LAT, or some sort of PETA-based "empowerment" angle such as BAT. Of course, horses are prey animals and dogs are predatory, but the SCIENCE of truly understanding it is the same...and truly understanding ALL aspects of operant conditioning, makes working between dogs, and horses, and chickens and dolphins applicable.
> 
> ...


You are WAY WAY WAY WAY over thinking it...

It is a very simple concept.......


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> That's because it IS simple.





JohnnyBandit said:


> It is a very simple concept.......


This and that, big time. 

When you get right down to brass tacks, there really isn't an awful lot involved in applying OC to dog training. The principles are finite, and any potential variations are minor in magnitude and limited in scope. Anyone can do it and it's done countless times per day the world over by 'average' folks. You don't need to be a card-carrying MENSA member, or hold a degree in psychology or engineering or medicine to succeed.

It's a beautiful thing.


(btw thanks CptJack and Willowy for clarifying, and CptJack for posting the CAT link - just glanced at it for now but I'll read thoroughly when time permits)


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Any good theorist recognizes that theory isn't always borne out in practice and that refinement of jargon does little to help results, though it may work as a selling point.

Lots of mis-understanding arises from reducing a multi-dimensional problem to one dimension.

Back to prong collars. Patty (Labrador) has been attempting to dislocate my shoulder when she's on leash and an armadillo or the free-range chihuahua who lives down the street crosses her path. I tried her on a prong collar when she was about 8 mo. She ignored the collar and continued to pull like mad. Result: some worrisome collar marks though no broken skin. So I put the prong collar back in the drawer. She'll be two next month. I had another go at the prong collar today and she quickly caught on to the concept that (1) constriction around the neck isn't pleasant; and (2) she is in control. She can avoid the unpleasant constriction by not pulling. Her grandmother, at about two years, also responded well to a prong collar.

My tentative conclusion: adolescent responses to a prong collar may be different from young adult responses. A sample of two is far from scientific . . . but adequate to make me think that maturity is an important factor in this training decision.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> Yes, of course, anybody can look that up and write it that way, and think it is simple. Actually applying it...meaning with real every day people and every day dogs is not so simple. I had already looked up LAT...terribly simplistic and may apply to basically mentally healthy dogs, but good luck with a real challenge. I realized I hadn't looked up BAT...wow...I found that rather odd. So LAT is simplistic for healthy dogs...BAT is meant to "empower" basically fearful, aggressive, and frustrated dogs (according to the website). Both of these techniques stray FAR from the reality of actual operant conditioning.
> 
> Both LAT and BAT will ultimately set up GOOD people with GOOD dogs for another saying: "What we think we are teaching our dogs, is not what our dogs are actually learning." LAT and BAT doesn't require people to understand anything. Those two very different "techniques" despite the fact they happen to rhyme with each other, have nothing to do with understanding operant conditioning as a WHOLE. I've watched Karen Pryor's tapes with abused horses, using the principles of TRUE operant conditioning and actually HEALING those horses...and not using "tricks" such as LAT, or some sort of PETA-based "empowerment" angle such as BAT. Of course, horses are prey animals and dogs are predatory, but the SCIENCE of truly understanding it is the same...and truly understanding ALL aspects of operant conditioning, makes working between dogs, and horses, and chickens and dolphins applicable.
> 
> ...


Okay so... please, in specific terms tell us what YOU would do to help, say, a reactive dog if not LAT. And I mean specific. Step by step. To the point that I could recreate it at home.

Because so far NOTHING that you've said provides any useful information. Just vague criticism.


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