# Is this a puppy mill?



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I see this site advertising on my local classifieds all of the time. It's based out of Quebec, Canada. My friend and I consider ourselves pretty savvy when it comes to buying dogs, but we looked all over the site and couldn't figure out whether or not this is what we'd consider a true puppy mill.

http://www.oranch.qc.ca/en/index.asp

On the one hand, it's a "ranch" that breeds a hell of a lot of different kinds of dogs, many "designer" -- people who deal in more than two breeds raise a red flag for me, and I don't condone selling designer mutts. None of the dogs (not even the purebreds) are registered with any kennel club, another big red flag. 

On the other hand, they allow anyone to visit the "ranch" and meet the pups and their parents (by appointment). They offer a 30-day money-back guarantee for contagious diseases and two years for genetic disorders (which is on par with many good breeders). Their prices are reasonable for unregistered dogs (less than half of what good breeders charge). They vaccinate and worm the pups. They don't let the pups go to new homes until they're nine weeks old (according to their contracts). They also say this:



> We have a kennel permit, in accordance with the bylaws of the municipality and the Animal Protection Agency of the Estrie.
> We have been inspected by S.P.C.A Canadian and AMIMA Quebec.
> A visit here, will convince you that there is no horror story as we see on TV, at our Kennel.


I am NOT considering getting a puppy from this place; my next pup is coming from a reputable breeder and is UKC registered and health guaranteed for three years. Obviously this place isn't bettering any of the breeds they sell, and I'm not recommending anyone buy from there. I'm just curious, though. What do you guys think -- harmful puppy mill, or more of a less-harmful backyard breeder kind of a thing, just on a larger scale? (Is there a difference? I tend to think of all puppy mills as having horrid conditions, not caring about puppies' health and not being open to the public, but maybe I'm off on that.) Has anyone else seen facilities like this?

(I'm not the only one wondering -- saw this ad on the local classifieds site, recently posted by someone who was thinking of buying from them but wanted to know more about the place. I'd like to send them a link to this thread if we get a good discussion going.)


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

yes. wow its disgusting


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

That is absolutely a puppy mill.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Aside from the fact that their grammar is terrible, they are disgusting for what they are doing! Puppy Mill with a pretty web sight.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I guess we have a consensus so far! For the benefit of whoever placed the ad I linked at the bottom of my post, care to explain the reasons they should avoid the place? I would point them elsewhere but I can't find anything else about the "ranch" online, which is odd considering they must sell quite a few pups.

Also, if they are a true puppy mill they're very sneaky, with their nice-looking site, plus posting their address and phone number, providing a health guarantee and allowing people to visit. I know that most of the time when we see puppy mills on TV, they're made out to be places where dogs are kept in filth and no one but employees are allowed in, so this place looks like Utopia in comparison. I could see why someone who doesn't know what to look for in a breeder might think this is a safe place to buy from... many people seem to know to avoid pet stores, but that's about it.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Actually, no one on this thread has a clue what they are. They are all guessing. My guess is that they breed a few dogs and sell dogs from other breeders, getting specific breeds on request. They list as many breeds as possible to generate inquires. But who knows?

As for the grammar, it is obvious they are using a web translation site like babblefish to translate from the french they speak.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Just because the place is clean, doesn't make it not a puppy mill.



> We have a kennel permit, in accordance with the bylaws of the municipality and the Animal Protection Agency of the Estrie.
> We have been inspected by S.P.C.A Canadian and AMIMA Quebec.
> A visit here, will convince you that there is no horror story as we see on TV, at our Kennel.


I am not familiar with the Canadian laws, but I'm assuming they have to pass an inspection to get the license. The inspection isn't especially strict, it's along the lines of do the animals have access to food/shelter/water? Ok, here's your license. 

The grammar on the website is because it's translated by a program from French.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Actually, no one on this thread has a clue what they are. They are all guessing. My guess is that they breed a few dogs and sell dogs from other breeders, getting specific breeds on request. They list as many breeds as possible to generate inquires. But who knows?
> 
> As for the grammar, it is obvious they are using a web translation site like babblefish to translate from the french they speak.


But they have pictures of their males and females that they breed...several from a number of different breeds. That's not a puppymill?


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

Tankstar said:


> yes. wow its disgusting


No, this is disgusting:









They're probably not that.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> No, this is disgusting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The term disgusting is, IMO, subjective. Both are breeding, breeding, breeding. The one is disgusting to look at...the other is disgusting because of what they do and both because of the vast number of breeds they have for sale.

A puppy mill is a puppy mill, no matter what it looks, but then this is just my opinion.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> I see this site advertising on my local classifieds all of the time. It's based out of Quebec, Canada. My friend and I consider ourselves pretty savvy when it comes to buying dogs, but we looked all over the site and couldn't figure out whether or not this is what we'd consider a true puppy mill.
> 
> http://www.oranch.qc.ca/en/index.asp
> 
> ...


Since one of the first puppies I clicked on was "priced for quick sale" my guess would be probably...their description of the cocker is probably from the 60's before the breed suffered ruination. Good with other dogs (I've met plenty who wanted to KILL other dogs), low dominance (I've met some baby puppies who'd rather take a chunk out of your hand), excellent with children (I won't even get into this). Morkies...maltese/yorkies who like to cuddle all day? On the pom site they get a lot more for blue merles and chocolates than they do the "regular" pups. 
They speak of the breeding adults with puppies on the ground as "our". It sounds like they own all these dogs to me...


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Also, if they are a true puppy mill they're very sneaky, with their nice-looking site, plus posting their address and phone number, providing a health guarantee and allowing people to visit. I know that most of the time when we see puppy mills on TV, they're made out to be places where dogs are kept in filth and no one but employees are allowed in, so this place looks like Utopia in comparison.


Those conditions are illegal in USDA-licensed puppy mills. The ones you see on TV getting busted are being shut down precisely because of that fact, not because they are puppy mills per se. Raising dogs in cages in mass facilities is not, by itself, a crime. It technically falls under similar jurisdictions as factory farming.

There are many 'sanitary' puppy mills that _do_ give basic care to their dogs. Like this one. Still, it's not a happy place for a dog to live in. Dogs shouldn't live in tiny barren cages their whole lives even if they're clean, warm cages.



> The term disgusting is, IMO, subjective. Both are breeding, breeding, breeding. The one is disgusting to look at...the other is disgusting because of what they do and both because of the vast number of breeds they have for sale.
> 
> A puppy mill is a puppy mill, no matter what it looks like, but then this is just my opinion.


I agree 100% Some 'mass breeding' facilities are better than others... but it's the entire concept of cranking out hundreds of pups a year for no reason other than to get $$ that _I_ find 'disgusting'.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Québec is one of the worst places as far as puppy mills go. The inspection agency, Anima Québec, now has 8 inspectors to cover the whole province. That's an upgrade: up to a couple years ago, they only had 5.

Laws here consider animals as property, so pupy mills cannot be prosecited or shut down unless they commit blatant acts of cruelty. Even then, an inspector must catch them with proof. Considering the inspectors do not have the right to make arrests or issue tickets, they usually give a warning, call the police, and when the police show up the mill has had time to clean up a bit, hide the incriminating evidence, and everything goes on as if nothing ever happened.

I would be wary of that site. The number of breeds they have, the fact that dogs are not registered, the fact that it takes an appointment to visit the dogs, etc. Everything points to a puppy mill, imho. Perhaps not the worse puppy mill in the province, but one nevertheless.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> No, this is disgusting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is disgusting too. But I still find this "breeder" disgusting. for all we know their dogs are kept in similar cages, all jammed together. obviously they wont put that on the website.

Just when you click the link open. and the first picture on the top screen with all the dogs in it, that is 24 dogs. 

They breed 30+ "breeds" that is not a red flag to you?

Sure their site is much prettier and seen has breed information on it. still doesn't make them good. and Quebec is well known for the puppy mills it has out there. Quebec is FULL of puppy mills.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

It may be irrelevant, but the fact that call the parents "our reproducers" bothered me. Sure, could be a translation thing, but whatever...

In my opinion, if they are focusing on that many breeds, that is a caution sign. I want a breeder to spend time focusing on providing quality dogs...not breeding "designer" dogs for profit.


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## tipper (Aug 19, 2007)

The breed is wasn't doing is Labrador


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

tipper said:


> The breed is wasn't doing is Labrador


??? lol

msg2short


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

If you have to ask, it probably is.

Designer dogs, I've heard...still trying to understand this, always come from BYBs or Puppy Mills. Reputable breeders want to preserve their breed of choice, not create a new one.

If there's a money back guarentee for genetic disorders, the parents weren't tested...all Rep. Breeders do this.

Check out local shelters instead! Don't shop, adopt!


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

tipper said:


> The breed is wasn't doing is Labrador


I agree Tankstar...huh?


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

emily445455 said:


> If you have to ask, it probably is.


That was my first thought.


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## chrisn6104 (Jun 8, 2009)

Meshkenet said:


> Laws here consider animals as property,


Sad fact for you. 

In this world you are either human or you're property. 
Quote from a movie. I think it was from one of the Planet Earth episodes.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

emily445455 said:


> If you have to ask, it probably is.
> 
> -snip-
> 
> Check out local shelters instead! Don't shop, adopt!


I do "shop," but I'd never buy a dog unless it was from a responsible breeder who did health testing, offered a good health guarantee, provided info on the pups' family lines, etc. When I bought my papillon, I met her mom and dad, grandmother and brother, who are all great, healthy dogs (and all Canadian Kennel Club champions -- mine would have been if she hadn't grown too tall!). I'm getting my klee kai pup in early April, and he's from a similarly great breeder who produces excellent breeding and show dogs. 

(I definitely support adopting from shelters and rescues, too, of course. Got my two cats from a shelter, and know many awesome shelter dogs!)

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I'll send along a link to the person who was thinking of buying from ORanch, and that person can read this and make his or her own decision. It can be very hard to find small dogs in the one shelter we have on the island -- the few who end up there tend to get snapped up extremely quickly -- so I somewhat understand why people who want small dogs and can't afford the $1000+ price turn to these facilities. It's a shame, really.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

chrisn6104 said:


> Sad fact for you.
> 
> In this world you are either human or you're property.
> Quote from a movie. I think it was from one of the Planet Earth episodes.


Laws everywhere consider dogs property. Otherwise, even the best of breeders couldn't sell them. What else are you going to consider them as?


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> Laws everywhere consider dogs property. Otherwise, even the best of breeders couldn't sell them. What else are you going to consider them as?


Animals  Which, IMO, is different than property...like your house, car, etc.


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## chrisn6104 (Jun 8, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> Laws everywhere consider dogs property. Otherwise, even the best of breeders couldn't sell them. What else are you going to consider them as?


My comment had nothing to do with breeders in particular but rather animals as a whole, wild or domesticated. The poster stated laws where he/she lives consider animals as property. 
We can go on about what is wrong with this but I think that would be best for another thread.

I was not directly attacking your beloved breeders. I was merely stating a fact.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

emily445455 said:


> Animals  Which, IMO, is different than property...like your house, car, etc.


Viewing an animal as property is not the same as treating it like an inanimate object. I think people get this concept confused. There are already many laws banning animal cruelty and neglect that have been passed without there ever being a need to change the status of animals under the law to anything else. 

Humane treatment of animals (as human property) is the backbone of the Animal Welfare movement. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. Animal Rights groups push for changing the status of animals under the law because they want to end the concept of domestic animals/pets (which they see as animal slavery) all together. Because if humans can't legally OWN an animal (because they can't be considered 'property'), what right do they have to even keep/buy/breed/eat one? That's the main step towards domestic animal abolition that is the entire goal of people like PETA.


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## USArmyParatrooper (Apr 22, 2009)

I still have a LOT to learn about picking a breeder, and I will be picking one in a couple of months. But what I have learned so far is that a reputable breeder puts an astounding amount of time and effort choosing and examining potential parents, to all of the expensive and time consuming examination of their puppies. The breeder will also have extensive knowledge and experience with the breed they're specializing in. 

I fail to see how anyone can possibly be a "quality" breeder of 30 different breeds. I personally would stay far away from them.


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## DanaS (Feb 24, 2010)

See my post "bad Missouri breeder". Learn from my mistake. I've always paid the AKC for registered dogs - not anymore. The AKC in my personal experience is aiding in the promotion of these big breeding facilities. Breed, breed, breed means $$$. The department of agriculture in Missouri, the vets who let the oath to prevent animal suffering slide, the bogus health certificates and the brokers/breeders should be ashamed of themselves. These types of facilities have made it virtually impossible for consumers to know if an animal is healthy. Sorry to all of the reputable breeders!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> No, this is disgusting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doesn't matter if they're that or not, and whether puppymill or puppy broker they are discusting greeders who do nothing to improve the lives of dogs.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Doesn't matter if they're that or not, and whether puppymill or puppy broker they are discusting greeders who do nothing to improve the lives of dogs.


Really? Aren't they taking market share from the worst kind of puppy mill? Wouldn't the world be a much better place if they were the norm for large scale breeders?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Really? Aren't they taking market share from the worst kind of puppy mill? Wouldn't the world be a much better place if they were the norm for large scale breeders?


No, they are not breeding to standard, many of the dogs that come out of such an operation will have health problems down the line due to lack of responsible breeding. Honestly, I'd rather see epople get pups from small scale byb than from ANY large scale mill, no matter HOW clean the mill is, at least most byb love their dogs and don't just see them as a source of income like millers do.


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## AccidentalChef (Jan 7, 2010)

KaseyT said:


> Really? Aren't they taking market share from the worst kind of puppy mill? Wouldn't the world be a much better place if they were the norm for large scale breeders?


The fact that there are even worse breeders out there does not make this one good.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I do not agree with the term "puppy mill". This is another term that has been insinuated into our vocabulary by the animal radicals. 

This is a commercial breeder. Breeding dogs, even in large quantities, is legal. If the facility is clean and the breeding animals are healthy, people have a right to breed dogs if they want to, even a LOT of them.

Would I breed in this manner? No. Would I buy a puppy from such a place? No.

HOWEVER:

If people do not wake up and protect the right of people to breed dogs, that right will be lost. It is already lost or under siege in many areas of the US, Canada, and the rest of the world.

Other rights, such as the right to dock tails, or crop ears, are being eliminated. Often on the heels of such draconian legislation comes breeding restrictions, numbers limits, and etc, all of which are designed to be whittled down so that breeding dogs becomes so cumbersome and expensive that the only people who will be able to do it are large commercial facilities like this, and people who breed illegally.

Dogs MUST remain as property. If we ever get to guardianship, you can kiss companion animals goodbye.

http://www.humanewatch.org


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

AccidentalChef said:


> The fact that there are even worse breeders out there does not make this one good.


No, it make it a better one. If all the large scale breeders were better, dogs would suffer much less.


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## Sheena (Sep 2, 2013)

*Yes this is a puppy mill*

I'm really upset about Les chiens du Ô Ranch, I called the SPCA about this places in they even said it was a puppy mill but there nothing that can be done about it.. Seeing chemin de la Rivière Ascot Corner has *No* ruling on how many dogs they can have or how these little Angels get treated.


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## Antje (Sep 1, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*

When they breed more than one nest with the same mother dog in a year, for me they are a puppymill. Mum being a breeding machine , awfull ! Breeding dogs in large quantities makes dogs articles just good to gain money. 
You always must be able to see the mum, with her puppies. And I would even insist in seeing the father.
More than one breed.......probably puppymill. Avoid please. Moneywolves.......:-(


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*

Wow, this is a blast from the past! This thread is from when I was new and not as good at seeing the red flags on breeder's sites.

And I don't remember who I was talking to about this originally, but none of my friends ended up buying from this place.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*



Crantastic said:


> Wow, this is a blast from the past! This thread is from when I was new and not as good at seeing the red flags on breeder's sites.
> 
> And I don't remember who I was talking to about this originally, but none of my friends ended up buying from this place.


 That's good


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## LauraB (Sep 5, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*

I just bought a puppy from this place yesterday.
My fiancé and I drove 5 hours after speaking to the breeders several times via phone and email.
The ranch is located in a beautiful area with lots of land, water, trees and hills.
The owners were friendly enough.. very French, but very informative about how to care for the puppy, train him, and make him comfortable and healthy.
The puppy we bought, a red Cockapoo, smelt a bit during the drive home, but we were told this was from living with the other dogs at the ranch.
He is EXTREMELY cuddly and affectionate. He didn't cry at all during the drive home, and through the first night (like they warned us he would). He slept in his bed and when he woke up he entertained himself with his toy quietly ... He has ALREADY shown progress in training.. going outside to do his business and coming when we call his name (we named him Bear), going to bed when told to etc.
I have another older dog (13 years old) and they get along great. 
Bear only cried when we left him alone (in the car when he wasn't held; in the house when we left him in another room - but he was fine when my other dog was around), and now he is already much more independent and running off alone etc.
All this to say, we are so far very happy with our puppy and I would recommend the breeder again. I can't speak for all the puppies, but this one seems perfectly "normal" and happy ~ I'm no expert, but I have owned about 5 dogs, all from early puppy-hood, in my lifetime.
They are "free range" fed and eat when they are hungry, so he hasn't begged or anything thus far.. He is only 8 or 9 weeks old though (Born on June 3rd).


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*



LauraB said:


> I just bought a puppy from this place yesterday.
> My fiancé and I drove 5 hours after speaking to the breeders several times via phone and email.
> The ranch is located in a beautiful area with lots of land, water, trees and hills.
> The owners were friendly enough.. very French, but very informative about how to care for the puppy, train him, and make him comfortable and healthy.
> ...


 Sounds like you got lucky but that doesn't mean that he won't have health issues later on (I hope that doesn't happen), but this is clearly a puppy mill and should not be supported *not trying to offend you or anything* just saying these people don't deserve your money


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## LauraB (Sep 5, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*

I know what you're saying & don't take offence.


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## LauraB (Sep 5, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*

You would think such an official website, with a lot of hits on Google would be legitimate and inspected..


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*

If not a mill it is at least a BYB considering the dog you got was a mix. Neither of which is a good way to go about getting a dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*

That's not how it works. Puppy mills aren't all run-down, dirty places with puppies crammed into tiny cages. A lot of them definitely are, but some have pretty barns you can visit in the scenic countryside. However, being a nice-looking place doesn't make it a good place to buy puppies. And having a pretty website definitely doesn't!

Responsible breeders are usually breeding one or two breeds. They don't breed tons of litters a year. They carefully select mates for their dogs based on structure and temperament. They have all of their breeding dogs tested for the major structural and genetic issues in the breeds (this is done by specialists, not a normal vet). They usually have waiting lists for puppies, and they have applications that must be approved. They provide a health guarantee of at least two years, sometimes more. They require you to have your pup spayed or neutered (or at least never bred), and they require you to return the pup to them if you ever can't keep it (even if it's several years old). Most either show their dogs in conformation or work them (for example, a good border collie breeder would probably do herding trials; a good husky breeder would mush with the dogs). They never sell their dogs through websites like this one -- most of them have their own websites, but they serve as places for you to learn about the dogs and the breeder, not as sales centers. But most of all, they breed for the love of a breed, not to make money. Good breeders usually don't come out ahead, at least not by much.

Here are a couple of charts:

Cost of raising a litter of well-bred boxer puppies
Breeder comparison chart


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## ashhunter1121 (Aug 29, 2013)

I do not condone what these people are doing the slightest bit, I hate seeing dogs in cages. It broke my heart the one time I went past someone's house who had a beagle in one of those little rabbit type coops, obviously the dog was used for hunting, but still why keep it out there? Anyway, to get back on topic, that site confuses me somewhat. First off I think it is a bit dated, some of the available litters came from 2005-2009. Maybe they just don't update a chunk of their site. Secondly, under a lot of the breeds there is "Available pups: SORRY, we do not breed this breed.". Why post the breed if you don't have it? Secondly the puppies come with "included examination of health, vaccine, dewormed, guaranteed of 2 years, the taxes and 1 bag of food Oven Baked." I don't know what to make of the whole thing.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

ashhunter1121 said:


> I do not condone what these people are doing the slightest bit, I hate seeing dogs in cages. It broke my heart the one time I went past someone's house who had a beagle in one of those little rabbit type coops, obviously the dog was used for hunting, but still why keep it out there? Anyway, to get back on topic, that site confuses me somewhat. First off I think it is a bit dated, some of the available litters came from 2005-2009. Maybe they just don't update a chunk of their site. Secondly, under a lot of the breeds there is "Available pups: SORRY, we do not breed this breed.". Why post the breed if you don't have it? Secondly the puppies come with "included examination of health, vaccine, dewormed, guaranteed of 2 years, the taxes and 1 bag of food Oven Baked." I don't know what to make of the whole thing.


I'm sorry to remind you, but the fact that you bought that puppy means you supported them in doing what they're doing. It's a mill, I don't get why you need to try to make sense of or legitimize what they're doing?

EDIT: Sorry! Got the poster wrong, don't mind me...


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I'm sorry to remind you, but the fact that you bought that puppy means you supported them in doing what they're doing. It's a mill, I don't get why you need to try to make sense of or legitimize what they're doing?


Ashhunter bought a puppy from them? Where did you see that?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*



LauraB said:


> I just bought a puppy from this place yesterday.
> My fiancé and I drove 5 hours after speaking to the breeders several times via phone and email.
> The ranch is located in a beautiful area with lots of land, water, trees and hills.
> The owners were friendly enough.. very French, but very informative about how to care for the puppy, train him, and make him comfortable and healthy.
> ...


Why on earth would you recommend anyone to get a dog from a puppy mill?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

That's why it confused me initially, ashhunter! I posted this thread more than three years ago when I was new to DF, and that site didn't throw up a ton of red flags like most mill/broker sites I was used to seeing. They encourage sterilization and offer a two-year health guarantee, for example. But now that I know more, I really just think they're business-savvy. They know that people are becoming more educated about what to look for in a breeder. They know that people are being told to look for health guarantees and to meet the mother dog in person, and to expect a spay/neuter contract. 

That said, because they are not registering their dogs with any reputable kennel club (or any registry at all), and are obviously not working with breed clubs or attempting to better the breeds through showing, working, health testing, or even selective pairing, their breeding stock are not going to be great examples of the breed. No reputable breeder would sell a breeding dog to a large-scale kennel operation like this. The puppies also won't be as well-socialized as pups from a reputable breeder, and will have a higher chance of genetic and other health issues. Also, it's possible that all of the dogs they own aren't on-site in that nice barn. They could keep breeding dogs elsewhere (and probably do, actually). The conditions there may not be as good.

And really, no reputable breeder sells dogs through a website like that.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Emmett said:


> Ashhunter bought a puppy from them? Where did you see that?


Oh, my bad! I confused the posters. Sorry about that!


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## ashhunter1121 (Aug 29, 2013)

I don't know if I'm understanding you correctly, sorry if I'm not, but I never bought a puppy from them. This is the first time I've heard of the place and I'm not going to drive to Canada to pick up a puppy. Driving 12 hours for my Wally was enough. =) And I'm not trying to 'legitimize' what they are doing if you read my first sentence it is "I do not condone what they are doing the slighest bit". I was quoting their site throughout my post and simply stating I don't understand the whole thing. If they take their money to vaccinate, deworm them, etc. Why not just simply stick to one breed? Why have mass quantities of dogs and start cross breeding them? Sorry if I took your post wrong, it's hard to understand someone over the computer, but I just felt like you were putting words in my mouth.


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## ashhunter1121 (Aug 29, 2013)

Just saw your other post. It's okay, I've confused things like that as well! lol.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

*Re: Yes this is a puppy mill*



ireth0 said:


> Why on earth would you recommend anyone to get a dog from a puppy mill?


 Yea I don't get that either....you shouldn't recommend them that would only help this continue  and I guarantee you that this person is helping a mill or large BYB (Back Yard Breeder)


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## Doglover65 (Aug 10, 2013)

Definitely a mill , if you breed that many breeds you are a mill , if your breed more than 2 breeds i consider them a mill (just my personal opinion) 

Its just a mill like the others such as Kimbertal, Hoytt and for heavens sake kennels. There are so many mills out there, i dont believe in more than 3 litters a year because to me thats not responsible. Also, breeders who dont health test are not even worth my time OR anyone's time. 

I hate byb and i hate mills. Have i bought from them before? Of course i think almost everyone has. And im glad i decided to sit down one day and good breeders instead of puppies and man did that change everything. 

Im not going to sit here and give someone crap for buying from one because its done, but i will try and educate them so next time they do not support people like these people or any other byb or miller.


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