# What's Cesar Millan's deal?



## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Curious to hear your opinions on him and his training methods. 


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

oh boy op2:


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

zhaor said:


> oh boy op2:


pass the popcorn please, I'll share some cotton candy


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

It's debunked...not much to talk about....lol zhaor


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

kcomstoc said:


> It's debunked...not much to talk about....lol zhaor


Tends to cause quite a riled up and interesting discussion though.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

I used to think he was a trainer. Then I became mildly educated about animals and realized differently. 


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Like all books... and why people should heed..
"Ignore the bad, reward the good"...

You take what you think your dog will approve from them...
And you chuck / ignore what your dog will disapprove.

Same with Sarah Wilson... no spray bottles for me... and I like her ideas quite a bit.

Same with all trainers... & training sites.
I ignore control collars and / trainers who uses spray bottles, and recommend adding lemon or hot sauce... plus wear gloves during a train..
No... no.
You can't trust my dog???
Why should I trust you???

Trust in techniques... even have to be earned (sort out bad ones and keep the good ones).


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## Benjismom (May 19, 2013)

Well I was flamed on some thread for quoting him so I shall not again! I always enjoyed his shows, and still try and catch some of them---some of it was just pure common sense. He made a lot of money for all the bad advice.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

I've just seen him be so freakishly aggressive with dogs that didn't need that type of response, in my unprofessional opinion of course.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Fact: CM deals with dogs no other trainer will touch.
Exhibit A


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

What's his deal?
He's an egotistical idiot who takes pleasure in pride in hurting animals and lying to owners because it makes him feel important. That's his deal.



No but seriously, he is outright abusive and cruel and uses methods that do not work and cause his dogs to get worse. I literally have no idea why he isn't in jail.
Don't follow his techniques and never suggest him to anyone.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

But he's got great teeth and a tv show. 

Yes, these types of discussions tend to get heated. I agree that his advice about exercise, consistency, and affection (or whatever the three things are) is good, but the same points are made by other folks (with real credentials) without the dominance nonsense and aggressive treatment.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

cookieface said:


> But he's got great teeth and a tv show.
> 
> Yes, these types of discussions tend to get heated. I agree that his advice about exercise, consistency, and affection (or whatever the three things are) is good, but the same points are made by other folks (with real credentials) without the dominance nonsense and aggressive treatment.


Just did a quick google because work is boring today.

"•Exercise – walking a dog at least one hour every day, and in the correct way.
•Discipline – giving a dog rules, boundaries, and limitations in a nonabusive manner.
•Affection – a reward we give to our dogs and to ourselves, but only after the dog has achieved calm submission in our "pack"."

From his website.


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## Beagles (Jun 4, 2013)

I like some of his techniques and avoid others. I only use what works for me/my dogs and I research everything before I try it.

op2:


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Just did a quick google because work is boring today.
> 
> "•Exercise – walking a dog at least one hour every day, and in the correct way.
> •Discipline – giving a dog rules, boundaries, and limitations in a nonabusive manner.
> ...


Thanks for doing the work.  I've seen the exercise, discipline, and affection, but not the commentary.

exercise - Fine, but what is "the correct way"? I'd probably have issues with his ideas.
discipline - Rules, boundaries, limitations are fine although I'm not thrilled with the word "discipline" because of the connotations.
affection - Great, but I don't know that want "calm submission in [the] pack" nor would I be willing to do what's necessary to create that calm, submissive attitude. I'll take happy, silly, and cuddly and dole out affection at will.

Still, I think there are far better people to get advice from.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

What's his deal ? ... probably a couple o' mil per season I would guess.

For that kind of money, I too would be more than happy to ki.... no ... wait a minute. Maybe I wouldn't. Definitely, I wouldn't.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I drank his brand of koolaid once. I'm not proud that I was so easily misled, but I thought I was doing the right thing for my dog. In retrospect, it was probably the exact opposite strategy I should have taken with her.

He has a few very good ideas, IMO, that the general public can and does benefit from. One is making sure dogs get enough exercise and understanding that a bored or under-exercised dog is bound to find other ways to get that energy out or relieve their boredom...generally by doing things you don't want them to do. I may disagree with how he accomplishes that in many cases, but that's something important that the public needs to learn. The other would be understanding how intuitive dogs are in regards to body language and our moods. I think he completely misses the mark on how he interprets those in many, many cases, but at least he gets people to start thinking about how their attitudes and body language effect their dogs.

On the whole, though, I think he does more harm than good. I like to think he has good intentions, but just is misled when it comes to his methods and is too egotistical to learn from other more educated training experts out there. His popularity and charisma make it a lot harder for the real trainers, who have put in the time and energy to learn and understand canine behavior and conditioning, to be heard through the noise.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Just click this: Search for all DF Cesar threads

Couple of recent ones: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/141138-cesar-millan-victoria-stilwell.html

http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/117237-cm-gets-bitten-again.html

http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/106477-your-opinion-cesar-milan.html

I'm pretty sure that everything that can be said has been said, heh.


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

Flaming said:


> pass the popcorn please, I'll share some cotton candy


Ill bring the drinks


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## Dabs (Jun 11, 2013)

I'm not a CM fan, I'll leave it there. But I DO like what he says about a dog sensing a persons energy, and that a majority of dog training is really people training.

***EDIT***

Is that pink woman with the pink dog real life? That can't be real life. It's like visual diabetes


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Dabs said:


> ***EDIT***
> 
> Is that pink woman with the pink dog real life? That can't be real life. It's like visual diabetes



pink pink and more pink with a pink thing to match in his pocket


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Just did a quick google because work is boring today.
> 
> "•Exercise – walking a dog at least one hour every day, and in the correct way.
> •Discipline – giving a dog rules, boundaries, and limitations in a nonabusive manner.
> ...


I will not lie, I spat out my cranberry juice in laughter when I read this.
Correct way, nonabusive, calm submission LOLOLO

Talkin' some big words for someone who destroys the lives of just about every dog he comes into contact with, including his own.




> I drank his brand of koolaid once. I'm not proud that I was so easily misled, but I thought I was doing the right thing for my dog.


Sadly, I too drank the koolaid. I thought I was doing right by my dog.
She is so scared of me now. I have to walk on pins and needles around her just to get her to wag her tail when I speak. I will probably never have a relationship with my dog like I want, and I hate myself for it and hate him for lying to me, and everyone else who takes a dip in his pool of insanity and misinformation.
I normally shrug off stupid trainers and their techniques, but I hate this guy so much that I panic when his name comes up. I will take whatever opportunity I can to smear his name (factually of course) and inform people correctly, for the sake of their dogs. This guy is dangerous.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Sadly, I too drank the koolaid. I thought I was doing right by my dog.
> She is so scared of me now. I have to walk on pins and needles around her just to get her to wag her tail when I speak. I will probably never have a relationship with my dog like I want, and I hate myself for it and hate him for lying to me, and everyone else who takes a dip in his pool of insanity and misinformation.
> I normally shrug off stupid trainers and their techniques, but I hate this guy so much that I panic when his name comes up. I will take whatever opportunity I can to smear his name (factually of course) and inform people correctly, for the sake of their dogs. This guy is dangerous.


We live and we learn. I wish I had a second chance with the dog I had then, to undo some of the harm I did. I just try to use what I've learned to be better for my dogs now. I love how much better my relationship is with Sam, even though his temperment is a bit harder and more driven than my last dog, which was all positive training. I love that he offers behaviors instead of being afraid to act and that he is so happy to see me and gets excited when we do training.

I can almost bet you that CM would tell us we're doing everything wrong with him. We've never alpha rolled him. We ignore him when he talks back to us and we just make him do things over again if he tries to sneak out of doing something with half-effort. We're lavish with praise and treats when he does something we like. The only reason we make him wait when we go through doors is because we're pretty sure when he's grown that he won't fit through a door with us. LOL!

Having done things both ways, I like this way much better and it seems to be far more effective with the different dogs I've had.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I drank his brand of koolaid once. I'm not proud that I was so easily misled, but I thought I was doing the right thing for my dog. In retrospect, it was probably the exact opposite strategy I should have taken with her.
> 
> *He has a few very good ideas, IMO, that the general public can and does benefit from. One is making sure dogs get enough exercise and understanding that a bored or under-exercised dog is bound to find other ways to get that energy out or relieve their boredom...generally by doing things you don't want them to do. I may disagree with how he accomplishes that in many cases, but that's something important that the public needs to learn. The other would be understanding how intuitive dogs are in regards to body language and our moods. I think he completely misses the mark on how he interprets those in many, many cases, but at least he gets people to start thinking about how their attitudes and body language effect their dogs.
> *
> On the whole, though, I think he does more harm than good. I like to think he has good intentions, but just is misled when it comes to his methods and is too egotistical to learn from other more educated training experts out there. His popularity and charisma make it a lot harder for the real trainers, who have put in the time and energy to learn and understand canine behavior and conditioning, to be heard through the noise.


I think my overall opinion is in line with this.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> I drank his brand of koolaid once. I'm not proud that I was so easily misled, but I thought I was doing the right thing for my dog. In retrospect, it was probably the exact opposite strategy I should have taken with her.
> 
> *He has a few very good ideas, IMO, that the general public can and does benefit from. One is making sure dogs get enough exercise and understanding that a bored or under-exercised dog is bound to find other ways to get that energy out or relieve their boredom...generally by doing things you don't want them to do. I may disagree with how he accomplishes that in many cases, but that's something important that the public needs to learn. The other would be understanding how intuitive dogs are in regards to body language and our moods. I think he completely misses the mark on how he interprets those in many, many cases, but at least he gets people to start thinking about how their attitudes and body language effect their dogs.*
> 
> On the whole, though, I think he does more harm than good. I like to think he has good intentions, but just is misled when it comes to his methods and is too egotistical to learn from other more educated training experts out there. His popularity and charisma make it a lot harder for the real trainers, who have put in the time and energy to learn and understand canine behavior and conditioning, to be heard through the noise.





ireth0 said:


> I think my overall opinion is in line with this.


I agree, but I think there are other trainers have similar advice without the other nonsense. *They* should be the ones on tv giving advice to the general public.


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## mjfromga (May 24, 2011)

I dislike most of his methods, finding them simply useless and ineffective. NO training method should have a warning like that, but then he approaches aggressive dogs in an aggressive manner, which does of course warrant a warning. 

As for Stilwell, I don't like her either. She doesn't give most truly aggressive dogs a real chance and advocates that dogs always be put down after biting a person. A bite to a person does NOT mean another bite... that's what trainer are for... right?? She might be kinder, but to me... she's a joke as well.

Millan doesn't put many, if any dogs down (tell the owners to put the dogs down etc.), but he does remove dogs from their homes and make them part of his "pack". If I wanted to give my dog away, I'd have not bothered calling in someone to try and train said dog! Don't particularly like either of them.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

While I agree with what packetsmom said about the general public benefitting from the exercise thing, I feel like his TV show has also had some detrimental effects on the general dog owning public as well. I feel like Cesar really popularized the whole dominance thing, and some of his techniques have become more common now, imo (i.e. the alpha dog rolling, the "ch" interrupter, the kicking/jabbing, etc.). I know there are lots of great pet owners who are knowledgeable, but there is also a huge majority of pet owners who think they are being responsible by implementing Cesar's methods on their own dogs, and even some trainers who use CM's methods.

Just today I saw a new neighbor of mine trying to Cesar-Milan her dog because he's leash reactive towards other dogs. And I'm sure some of you have read the thread about my last foster and the trainer that Bell'Anima gave to her new owner (who told her she wasn't allowed to walk the dog until she learned to be a pack leader in the house wtf?!?! and told her to use the choke chain ughh).


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

About the only thing he does have right is his philosophy on exercise and dogs needing a calm, confident leader.

However, those are not points that he stresses and they are easily lost in the "you muss be de alfa.' bullsnot. And his definition of leader is w a r p e d beyond all common sense and scientific reasoning. 

You can learn the same valuable principles from Stilwell and while she's not great, at least she doesn't abuse dogs.
I have never, ever heard her say 'put that dog down' before. Not saying it hasn't been said, but at one point I watched her pretty often and never heard it said.



> Millan doesn't put many, if any dogs down (tell the owners to put the dogs down etc.), but he does remove dogs from their homes and make them part of his "pack". If I wanted to give my dog away, I'd have not bothered calling in someone to try and train said dog! Don't particularly like either of them.


But, I do know that a lot of Milan's dogs end up needing to be put down because after he gets done with them, they're pretty irreparable, or at least for the common owner. 
And if he takes them, they're forced to live a life of fear and nervousness under his thumb of ever looming SUBMIT, THINE CANINE. BEND TO MINE WILL


He's too popular. His abuse is too readily available. Too many people believe that he is right because he's on TV. People are sheep and will blindly follow a ram off the ramp, because it's the ram. It must be right. Right?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Being entirely honest, before I had any actual first hand experience with CM (had never seen his show or read any of his material), the impression I had was that he was mainly about the calm energy and promoting Pit Bulls. Thus, I was cool with this because that seemed like a good idea to me!

After hearing more from people and actually looking into it myself, I can see how that impression was wrong.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

He is an absolute ass hat that has put dog training back 20 years for the general public. 
Yeah he might have good ideas with the exercise blah blah blah, people don't gave a crap about ideas, they want a quick fix so they jump straight for the alpha rolling, dominant, I am the boss technique and forget about everything else.

People like that shouldn't be on TV, the reason positive based training is so great is because you can't damage your dog by giving your dog treats!! But you can damage your dog by trying to dominate it with some of the crap he does. 

(not saying I agree with solely positive training, in the right hands an E collar or prong can work wonders IMO).

But when you are preaching complete and utter bullshit to the public that have no dam clue and then they start trying it, then you are asking for disaster.

Really this rant doesn't even make sense but frik it makes my blood boil and the things I actually want to say will get me booted. 

I want cake.


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## Kobismom (Dec 17, 2012)

Admittedly, before we got Kobi, I probably watched close to 100 hours of CM's "The Dog Whisperer," trying to learn how to best "handle" my puppy. When we first got Kobi, though, I never really ended up using many of the techniques. I believe in tiring the hell out of Kobi at the dog park or on long walks to keep his high energy in check, but short of that, we've used a basic commands/rewards/praise system with him. 

Now, with Kobi at 9 months old, we take him to the dog park or dog beach daily, where he can run and be a dog. There is a dog training business, who "preys" on new owners who take their dogs to the park. They'll come up to you with unsolicited advice (they've done it to me because we use a gentle leader on Kobi and they told us we should be using a Martingale collar on him...without knowing anything about the personality of my dog!), and try to show you how their techniques will work best with your dog. 

I watch them take dogs on the outside perimeter of the dog parks (outside the fence) walking back and forth with dogs to get them "socialized" and "desensitized" to the dogs inside the parks. That part doesn't bother me so much. What bothers me is I've watched them use a lot of CM techniques on the dogs if they aren't listening to commands, such as jabbing them to sit, pulling hard on their choke chain (or whatever they're using) if the dog isn't heeling, etc. In some instances, I've watched the dogs try to struggle to get out of the situation & jump all over the trainers, only for the trainers to yank on the leash harder. To watch these poor dogs struggle breaks my heart. I would love to tell them off and to go to the owners (who walk behind the trainers so as not to distract the dog...would be my guess) to go find a trainer who uses positive training on their pups, not the BS these guys are selling...

I could never imagine using these type of techniques on Kobi.. We'll use a gentle tug on the gentle leader, but never would we get into a huge power struggle with him so as to get him to jump on us in an attacking manner.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

What I don't understand about CM is why people think he's the only dog trainer in the world, so of course they have to do what he said. Haven't they noticed that bookstore and library shelves are stuffed with dog training books by other people? I guess if you're not training dogs on TV, you're not training dogs.


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## Aska (Jun 9, 2013)

...

I don't like his training methods. Dogs are not wolves. Sure, dogs might come from wolves but that was many generations back. Dogs don't act like wolves in many ways any more so his methods might work for few days... then they're at square one again. He also does the same thing in every single show.


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## DobermanHusky (May 28, 2013)

Gloves during training why?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Shep said:


> What I don't understand about CM is why people think he's the only dog trainer in the world, so of course they have to do what he said. Haven't they noticed that bookstore and library shelves are stuffed with dog training books by other people? I guess if you're not training dogs on TV, you're not training dogs.


I thinks it's an indication of where (too) many dog owners turn to, to receive their 'education'.

*BOOKS ??? ... what are _they_ ???*


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I haven't watch hours and hours of his show, but I agree with some of his ideas (exercise, calmness, etc) and I see his dogs (at least when shown on the show) as a happy pack who seem comfortable and accepting. 

I use the 'tsst' with Ranger because, well, it gets his attention. My other options are waiting for him to pay attention to me again, use his name (which being used over and over without response creates a negative) or leash correction. If I make that noise, he quickly checks on me.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Apparently CM's methods are highly effective on drunks...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> •Affection – a reward we give to our dogs and to ourselves, but only after the dog has achieved calm submission in our "pack"."





cookieface said:


> affection - Great, but I don't know that want "calm submission in [the] pack" nor would I be willing to do what's necessary to create that calm, submissive attitude. I'll take happy, silly, and cuddly and dole out affection at will.


My biggest problem with him is that what he calls "calm submission" is usually, to my eye, a repressed and shut down dog who is afraid to do anything. Do not want, and hate the methods he uses to make dogs that way. It's not problem-solving, it's bullying.


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## DPDesigns (Mar 7, 2013)

Seriously, haven't we gone beyond starting posts about Cesar Millan already!?! 
You hate him? Good for you. You love him? Good for you. 
Point is... it's controversial - some swear by his methods and others condone it. Why not decide for yourself and leave it at that. 
If you don't like what he's doing, watch something else. If you do, enjoy.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea I hate when people discuss stuff on discussion forums.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

DPDesigns said:


> Seriously, haven't we gone beyond starting posts about Cesar Millan already!?!
> You hate him? Good for you. You love him? Good for you.
> Point is... it's controversial - some swear by his methods and others condone it. Why not decide for yourself and leave it at that.
> If you don't like what he's doing, watch something else. If you do, enjoy.



He uses scientifically disproven methods that do not work. He teaches thousands upon thousands of people that abusing their dogs is right. He causes so many dogs to end up in shelters or put down, and people to get hurt. He spreads misinformation and preaches stuff that is not real.
We're not talking about someone popping a collar or using a prong, we're talking about someone who kicks dogs and punches them and slaps them and hangs them until they pass out, and causes dogs to *urinate and defecate in fear of him.* He's abusive. I don't even know how this can still be considered opinion. You can bet if I was kicking and hanging my dogs, I'd have the humane society battering down my door.

The man is a problem.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

mashlee08 said:


> He is an absolute ass hat that has put dog training back 20 years for the general public.


Define general public. The public I know is not very educated at all on the subject. I think him being on TV has probably sent them forward a few years and opened the door to learning more about dogs and their behavior.
I know most of them are still stuck on whips and rolled up newspapers and shouting NO!

Don't even get me started on the people who get a dog and then just leave them outside and this happens more often than you'd think. At least he supports interacting with your dog.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

EdDTS said:


> Define general public. The public I know is not very educated at all on the subject. I think him being on TV has probably sent them forward a few years and opened the door to learning more about dogs and their behavior.
> I know most of them are still stuck on whips and rolled up newspapers and shouting NO!
> 
> Don't even get me started on the people who get a dog and then just leave them outside and this happens more often than you'd think. At least he supports interacting with your dog.


I was talking about dog training, not interaction, that's a whole new kettle of fish. Ones gonna leave a dog life chained, pretty much always gonna leave a dog life chained, it's pretty much an epidemic in Australia and New Zealand. A way of life for most. 

Ah well, you think it's put them forward, I think it has put them back, so we will agree to disagree. I don't see how calling a dog dominant by lying on its back and trying to force you pat it's belly is really forward thinking. 
Training was simpler (not saying it was good training though) before he rolled around, now it's gone and put archaic ideas and theories in peoples head that they have to dominate and be the alpha this and alpha that, and you gotta assert yourself by eating first etc etc. 

All the work people are gonna have to do to get these ideas out of peoples heads is going to take generations. I think personally that it would be better if people believed what they did prior to CM. But, I really haven't been round long enough to truly speculate on it. I am only a spring chicken myself, and grew up in an animal back ground, the first thing I ever knew about training dogs was clicker training(not saying I knew how to do it but I saw people growing up using them). So I guess maybe my point of view is a little bit sheltered.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

EdDTS said:


> Define general public. The public I know is not very educated at all on the subject. I think him being on TV has probably sent them forward a few years and opened the door to learning more about dogs and their behavior.
> I know most of them are still stuck on whips and rolled up newspapers and shouting NO!
> 
> Don't even get me started on the people who get a dog and then just leave them outside and this happens more often than you'd think. At least he supports interacting with your dog.


I'm not sure his methods are much better than whips, rolled up newspaper, and shouting, and then he adds the "dominance" and "alpha of the pack" nonsense which just seems to make things worse. People used to see a dog who had accidents as not potty trained, now they think the dog is plotting a household coup.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> Apparently CM's methods are highly effective on drunks...


That... was hilarious. Thank you for sharing!


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

EdDTS said:


> Don't even get me started on the people who get a dog and then just leave them outside and this happens more often than you'd think. At least he supports interacting with your dog.


Really? Because last time I checked, his "pack" lived outside. Unless he's somehow managed to move almost 15 or so dogs into his home. The man takes dogs, of all sizes, and leaves them loose, unsupervised in a fenced area. They often fight and seriously hurt each other. 
The only interaction he does, he running them until they drop then physically and mentally harming them until they fear him enough to listen.

Don't think it counts.


And, while it's not a better method by any means, at least a rolled up newspaper won't do half the physical damage that kicking, punching, slapping, hanging and slamming a dog to the ground will do.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

HollowHeaven said:


> What's his deal?
> He's an egotistical idiot who takes pleasure in pride in hurting animals and lying to owners because it makes him feel important. That's his deal.
> 
> 
> ...




thats so over the top its ridiculous


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Yea I hate when people discuss stuff on discussion forums.


:boink:

/too short


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

I haven't read anything yet, I'm gonna pull the twizzlers and popcorn out first 


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

jiml said:


> thats so over the top its ridiculous


Yes, I agree he is over the top ridiculous :]


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## cydoc (Mar 21, 2013)

I think Cesar has a good heart but is misguided. A lot of the things he preaches I actually agree with. Being calm, understanding dogs read your energy and body language, that dogs feed off of us, or as he calls it "mirroring".

He has stated time and again that his alpha roll and 'tssts' are mere touches and that you should never actually harm or hit the dog. Still, I do no approve and especially with the alpha roll, this has been disproved and can make your dog worse. His leash corrections are by far what I have the most issue with.

I think he has a lot to offer but like any serious dog owner knows, no trainer has all the right answers. I have personally pulled what I can from his teachings and implemented them with great success. Namely, sharing your "loving energy" while you make your dogs food, require them to be calm before feeding/playing and such, being a responsible, calm and happy leader and so on. His physical interactions with dogs though I personally disagree with and do not implement.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

cydoc said:


> He has stated time and again that his alpha roll and 'tssts' are mere touches and that you should never actually harm or hit the dog. Still, I do no approve and especially with the alpha roll, this has been disproved and can make your dog worse. His leash corrections are by far what I have the most issue with.


It surprises me that he would say this, yet he gets on public television and punches dogs in the face. And slaps them. And chokes them. And kicks them.


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## cydoc (Mar 21, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> It surprises me that he would say this, yet he gets on public television and punches dogs in the face. And slaps them. And chokes them. And kicks them.


I have never seen him punch a dog or slap them. Kicking is a kind of in between, he claims it is a touch and it is impossible to know unless you are right there with him to see. Even then though, the kick "touch" is a little too much in my opinion. And choking/whipping the neck is just too much for me.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

cydoc said:


> Kicking is a kind of in between, he claims it is a touch and it is impossible to know unless you are right there with him to see.


Kick, touch with the foot, whatever people call it ... it ain't training. Maybe good for mules, arguably, but I don't know of anyone else that uses their feet for correcting or 'disciplining' dogs. To me, the very idea of doing so seems barbaric and highly disrespectful. We do have opposable _thumbs_, right?


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## cydoc (Mar 21, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Kick, touch with the foot, whatever people call it ... it ain't training. Maybe good for mules, arguably, but I don't know of anyone else that uses their feet for correcting or 'disciplining' dogs. To me, the very idea of doing so seems barbaric and highly disrespectful. We do have opposable _thumbs_, right?


I agree.

We can send a multi-billion dollar robot to mars, eradicate numerous diseases, and connect the world through a series of servers to share vast amounts of information and aid in global communication....

...but we can't figure out ways to train dogs without physical assertion.

Kind of goes with world hunger, poor health care, and other issues. It boils down to humans having a superiority complex and being selfish in the end. Nothing is stopping us but ourselves.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

cydoc said:


> I have never seen him punch a dog or slap them. Kicking is a kind of in between, he claims it is a touch and it is impossible to know unless you are right there with him to see. Even then though, the kick "touch" is a little too much in my opinion. And choking/whipping the neck is just too much for me.


Well, I have. There was one dog that was food aggressive, he slapped her multiple times, and punched her in the face and neck until she tore him up. Then he beat her until she "submitted". Then smiled about it. 

That's not the only incident, but it's one that sticks out in my mind.

If you're a trainer, and your show has a 'warning, do not try this at home' warning on it, you should probably rethink your choice of career.


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## cydoc (Mar 21, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Well, I have. There was one dog that was food aggressive, he slapped her multiple times, and punched her in the face and neck until she tore him up. Then he beat her until she "submitted". Then smiled about it.
> 
> That's not the only incident, but it's one that sticks out in my mind.
> 
> If you're a trainer, and your show has a 'warning, do not try this at home' warning on it, you should probably rethink your choice of career.


what episode was this because I feel I need to see it. that sounds bad but it is more so to develop a better opinion on the matter.


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## skitty56 (Jan 22, 2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Yea I hate when people discuss stuff on discussion forums.


Bahhahahaha sorry this made me laugh.

But I agree with it. While the topic of CM has been beaten to death over and over on this forum, I think it is pretty relevant.

Also, I don't know about you guys.... but at our local bookstores, half the books on dog training are by Cesar (have you seen how many books he has written?!?! Like wtf.). That, and unfortunately, a lot of "dog trainers" do rely on very similar techniques


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## cydoc (Mar 21, 2013)

skitty56 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


The "touch" at the beginning is way too much and having dealt with a food aggressive dog when I was only 12....man why does he even need to use the "touch" let alone so viciously?!

As for the kick...idk...the dog latched on to his arm, I can't blame him. I have never been bit and latched on to and I won't lie, I do not know the proper ways to handle such a situation other than avoid getting in that situation (ie don't do what he did with the whole "touch" thing lol). I have been bit several times working with other people's dogs but it was always mear fear/warning related, a lot of show but only a nip.

[edit] working with means taking care of/walking/playing and such. I am relatively new to training, at least past the very basics


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

skitty56 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


eeesh reading the comments on that video is painful.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> What's his deal?
> He's an egotistical idiot who takes pleasure in pride in hurting animals and lying to owners because it makes him feel important. That's his deal.
> 
> 
> ...


I will agree that he is arrogant & I don't much care for his attitude towards women :/ or dogs for that matter (the way he says you have to be totally takes all the fun out of even having a dog IMHO) I don't think he is intentionally hurting dogs, I believe that he truly loves/likes dogs & wants to do what's best for them ... He just goes about it the wrong way :/.

I will say that he has come along way from when the show first aired back in 06'. I was actually pleasantly surprised to see the gentle way he worked with a dog who had no front legs whose owners wanted to yeah her how to use a wheelchair they had built. 

As far as his training methods I do what I do with everyone else, take from him what I can use & ignore the rest


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

I dont like him or his methods, there are many ways to teach a dog with kindness so I see no need for the tactics he uses. Its just wrong in my eyes.

But a bit off topic....if I didn't know who he was and saw him down the street....well he does have a yum factor in there


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

voodookitten said:


> But a bit off topic....if I didn't know who he was and saw him down the street....well he does have a yum factor in there


...yup, I can see it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

voodookitten said:


> I dont like him or his methods, there are many ways to teach a dog with kindness so I see no need for the tactics he uses. Its just wrong in my eyes.
> 
> But a bit off topic....if I didn't know who he was and saw him down the street....well he does have a yum factor in there


Would it be bad of me to admit that's part or the reason I watch his show?


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Well, I have. There was one dog that was food aggressive, he slapped her multiple times, and punched her in the face and neck until she tore him up. Then he beat her until she "submitted". Then smiled about it.
> 
> That's not the only incident, but it's one that sticks out in my mind.
> 
> If you're a trainer, and your show has a 'warning, do not try this at home' warning on it, you should probably rethink your choice of career.


I have seen that video many many times & although I do agree that he handled the situation VERY WRONG I don't remember seeinghimboutrigr punch & slap the dog ... Though he did use that "bite" touch a lot, if that's what you mean.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have seen that video many many times & although I do agree that he handled the situation VERY WRONG I don't remember seeinghimboutrigr punch & slap the dog ... Though he did use that "bite" touch a lot, if that's what you mean.


You mean where he punches the dog in the neck?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have seen that video many many times & although I do agree that he handled the situation VERY WRONG I don't remember seeinghimboutrigr punch & slap the dog ... Though he did use that "bite" touch a lot, if that's what you mean.


I love how people qualify his abuse. It's a touch, not a slap, a touch, not a kick. You don't ever need to touch a dog to train it. Watch some kikopup. You'll never have to excuse one thing she does.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

You may not _have_ to touch a dog to train it, but vets and groomers would sure appreciate it. Accustoming a dog to gentle, hands-on restraint is a good thing. And yes, I agree this is certainly _not_ the kind of touching CM specializes in.

As for his "yum" factor, I cannot see it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> I love how people qualify his abuse. It's a touch, not a slap, a touch, not a kick. You don't ever need to touch a dog to train it. Watch some kikopup. You'll never have to excuse one thing she does.


I'm not saying what he does is right (it's not) or effective, or nessessary (it's not) to train dogs. I was only saying that its more of a "jab" then a punch (fist is open, not clenched) its not any better & I'm sure it hurts some dogs (mine would just think he as playing if he did that to them  ... But ACDs play rough anyway).

He does kick dogs, sometimes with roller blades on in sensitive areas of their body, ironically I have never had ANY of the problems with my dogs that all these "clients" of his are showed to have & I have never dominated, kicked or punched my dogs. 

I will admit to ribbon their noses in accidents & using rolled up newspapers back in the day, but I DO NOT anymore. Silly Cesar ... Humans are ALL READY dominant


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## Shoul (May 8, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


> Apparently CM's methods are highly effective on drunks...





SydTheSpaniel said:


> That... was hilarious. Thank you for sharing!


Agreed! This is awesome!


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## Cailin (May 2, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I will agree that he is arrogant & I don't much care for his attitude towards women :/ or dogs for that matter *(the way he says you have to be totally takes all the fun out of even having a dog IMHO)* I don't think he is intentionally hurting dogs, I believe that he truly loves/likes dogs & wants to do what's best for them ... He just goes about it the wrong way :/.


 Very much this.

That said, I was raised on the whole dominance thing. Dominance theory was the bread and butter of what I learned from my uncles, from my cousins, from my grandparents and my parents. It wasn't until some three to four years ago that I learned about clicker training. And that happened after I had watched CM for some time and became curious about what his critics had to say... nowadays I do get irked when I hear people praise him because they remind me of how I used to be. I do try to ever so gently stir people towards positive training methods. I find that you get so much more from a dog and no guilty conscience.

Also I really can't see the yummy factor at all. Then again, he looks like a younger version of my dad. 

And the Drunk Whisperer was hilarious!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

cydoc said:


> The "touch" at the beginning is way too much and having dealt with a food aggressive dog when I was only 12....man why does he even need to use the "touch" let alone so viciously?!
> 
> As for the kick...idk...the dog latched on to his arm, I can't blame him. I have never been bit and latched on to and I won't lie, I do not know the proper ways to handle such a situation other than avoid getting in that situation (ie don't do what he did with the whole "touch" thing lol). I have been bit several times working with other people's dogs but it was always mear fear/warning related, a lot of show but only a nip.
> 
> [edit] working with means taking care of/walking/playing and such. I am relatively new to training, at least past the very basics


Yeah everything he did after she latched into him is kind of not so much training & more about survival at that point. 

That being said, there are sooo many different ways that could have been handled which WOULDN'T have resulted in a bite, but the owners (whether intentionally or unintentionally) exacerbated this by messing with her when she was eating.

Which raises another question & it's really one that really grinds my gears ... Is the question as to WHY people even feel the need to mess with their dogs when they are eating in the first place??? I mean if I was served food & some stranger got all up in my grill & tried to take it away from me I would prolly stab them very hard with my fork ... & that's what Holly did, she stabbed Cesar with her "fork" only she had 42 of them (I think that's how many teeth dogs had xD correct me if I am wrong though).

Oh ... I missed seeing the "drunk whisperer", can someone repost or relink it? Please?


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Amaryllis said:


> I love how people qualify his abuse. It's a touch, not a slap, a touch, not a kick. You don't ever need to touch a dog to train it. Watch some kikopup. You'll never have to excuse one thing she does.


emily is very talented. Not everyone is as talented and peoples expectations and dogs are all different. I dont love everything cesar does but I dont think he is abusive either. In fact If you got a pretty severely agressive dog Id say it could prob live with Cesar and have a pretty good life. Victoria would prob have it PTS


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes that's what I also hate about society, we have become so "if its not perfect or if its in the way or *gasp* if it acts like an animal it is then it must be disposed of) I don't dominate my dogs anymore, I also font try to force them to be something they are not, some does are NOT social, they don't like to be petted by strangers or don't like kids, & it's obvious they just won't , then I don't force them to be "someone" they aren't just for society.

Instead I make society compensate for my dog in the way of "no touch, no talk, no eye contact lol." in a way I am thankful for CM for making those rules so famous because if I skittish or unsocial dog, then usually all I have to say is "I'm sorry but we practice no touch no talk no eye contact" & usually people get it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

jiml said:


> emily is very talented. Not everyone is as talented and peoples expectations and dogs are all different. I dont love everything cesar does but I dont think he is abusive either. In fact If you got a pretty severely agressive dog Id say it could prob live with Cesar and have a pretty good life. Victoria would prob have it PTS


Talent? I don't think that has anything to do with it.

I'm a first time owner and figured out shaping and doing what Emily does on her videos. I doubt I'm "talented" at this. 

The expectations/what people want from the dog - that probably has a lot to do with it. With what I want Wally to do now and wanted him to do before - I don't see CM's approach achieving it. If anything, Wally was "submitting" to anything near him so making him "be submissive" was not the problem, it's him standing on his four paws and being curious instead of scared that was the problem. 

Not that I think VS would be any better - but that's why I went with shaping (Pryor, Garrett, Clicker Solutions site, kikopup, etc) and the look-at-that game (my first exposure to it was Control Unleashed), and games like Rev Up/Cool Down, etc.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

@KB lover I hear you there, "being submissive" was not buddy's problem either now he will offer behaviors, & I always reward him even if its not "right" because he TRIED.

With Josefina she is a "give an inch & she'll take a mile " type. So with her I do a form of NILF, a if you don't do whatbibwanr you don't get what you want deal. 

With Izze it was "he has to be fun or have a purpose or I'm not doing it" xD. Every dog is different ,what works on one doesn't work on another. Sometimes with Josefina I have to "put my food down" & get "assertive" , but if I did that with buddy he would be a puddle on the floor.


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## OhChristen (Jun 20, 2013)

Ok. So this thread made me curious about about ol' Cesar. I have never given him much mind because I like the idea of positive reinforcement (that is what we train where I work) and, outside of seeing his books everywhere ever, I have been pretty clueless to his methods other than them being questionable. 

Hank and I are watching some episodes now, and man. If I ever handled a client's dog like that, I would be fired. And sued. By the company and the client. Seriously. And I would deserve it. Majorly. My brain would probably have to be taken over by aliens or something first, because...gah. I feel like I am watching a tortue session.

I like the phrase "calm and assertive" (I try to practice this--staying calm and in control of myself so I don't pass stress on to dogs) while I groom) and I do like the idea that behavioral problems are most often not the fault of the dog, but I think even that is overshadowed by this crap I am seeing on this show.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah & to think he worked as a groomers assistant ... Yikes!!!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

skitty56 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I would have bitten him, too. He never gives the dog a way to back off or diffuse the situation, but insists on staying in her space in a threatening way. If a human did that to me? I'd also feel like I had no choice but to react in an aggressive way.

She basically warned him, "Dude...get out of my space. I'm not comfortable with you here." He persisted, refusing to move and using pretty threatening body language and a hard stare at her. Then he moved even further into her space. I see a dog that felt like it had no other choice.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Exactly. I'm a non-violent person -- I've never hit anyone -- but if some creepy stranger kept getting in my personal space and looming over me and reaching for me and wouldn't back off when I told them to repeatedly, I'd punch them. I don't expect a dog to just take that kind of crap, either.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Exactly. I'm a non-violent person -- I've never hit anyone -- but if some creepy stranger kept getting in my personal space and looming over me and reaching for me and wouldn't back off when I told them to repeatedly, I'd punch them. I don't expect a dog to just take that kind of crap, either.


Me either! Why do people insist on messing with their dogs while they eat? They don't like the DOG begging while THEY eat, dogs deserve curtesy too! 

Have kids? Feed the dog in a crate behind a closed door or after the kids have gone to sleep! Have a food aggressive dog? Show them you mean no harm or better yet just feed them in a quiet place & LEAVE THEM ALONE!


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