# Does anyone do E-Collar training?



## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

I wanna start learning how to do remote collar training. Not for hunting but just for obedience. At my old job we had a seminar with petsafe and actually watched a video on it. It really intrigued me on how useful it can be as a training tool vs the shock collar cruel stereo type is has. The rep actually let us feel the stimulation from the collar and it's totally not a "shock" type feeling at all. I'm just wanting to know if anyone here uses this training method? Which type of e-collars do you use or which brand/model do you recommend? Do you recommend any certain training DVDs on the correct way to use an e-collar? I think I plan on purchasing Leerburgs E-collar training for pet owners dvd. I do not have a disobedient dog he's actually very good at several things I just want to enhance the command relationship between us. He's a Bulgarian Shepherd so he does have long hair. If I understand it right I'm probably going to need the longer prongs? Any and all information or tips is much appreciated!!! Thank you!!


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

"e-collar" is such a ridiculous euphemism.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

I know some people disagree with them and I know there's a lot of people who like them. The feeling that comes out of them is very mild. More like a slight tickle.... Or an itch that you can't scratch. It doesn't feel like a "shock" at all when I got to feel it at the seminar.... Not even close to what people picture when someone says the word "shock collar".... Has anyone here actually used them?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Some people here have used them. I'm sure they'll weigh in eventually. But they do work by being unpleasant. There's no other reason they would work, unless you're only using it as a pager or as a marker for a deaf dog, but that would take an entirely different kind of conditioning. The shock collar trainers are very good at marketing their methods, but it all comes down to: the collar is unpleasant and the dog learns to avoid the unpleasantness. 

I think it'll help if you explain what you want to accomplish. If he's already well-trained I don't think you'll see any improvements.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I use it as a pager and marker for a deaf dog. 

I also use it set very, very high for snake aversion training. Unfortunately, neither one of those are going to help you. I would suggest you find someone with experience to teach you (I needed that, even with the deaf dog) because you can very quickly send a lot very far south if your timing isn't dead on with this thing, because it does not work the way other training methods do.

*ETA:*And, yes, they work by being unpleasant and the dog wanting to make the feeling stop. If they didn't, it wouldn't work. Not that it NECESSARILY has to do that, but unless you're using it as a clicker, then that's what you're going to foster in the dog and make it effective. Not the end of the world, though I don't know why you'd need to or want to for MOST situations but as Cran said below: Recognize that.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It really doesn't matter what the "tickle" feels like to you. E-collars work by being unpleasant/aversive to the dog. That's the whole point of them. If you're going to use one, at least admit that. Then find someone experienced to teach you how to have the perfect timing you need to use an e-collar. That's not something people can really help you with on a dog forum.


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## notgaga (Oct 25, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I use it as a pager and marker for a deaf dog.
> 
> I also use it set very, very high for snake aversion training. Unfortunately, neither one of those are going to help you. I would suggest you find someone with experience to teach you (I needed that, even with the deaf dog) because you can very quickly send a lot very far south if your timing isn't dead on with this thing, because it does not work the way other training methods do (ie: often you need the dog to obey to TURN OFF the stim, rather than using it as a 'punishment' to get them to stop in the moment, and that is harder to adjust to than it sounds.)


Not to take the thread over, I've just been meaning to ask you this, but how do you go about snake avoidance training? Like, do you have snakes on hand to make use of? Laika was bitten by a copperhead last October. It was almost twilight out and the snake, a baby in fact, was on like a walkway made out of decking. My brother and I were standing three feet away from her when it happened (and then both my parents' elderly dogs walked RIGHT OVER IT, thinking my brother and me yelling at them to get out of the way was us just recalling them. Luckily or not, the snake had spent its venom on my dog). Add the color of the snake and the leaves to the time of day and it was not a super avoidable situation. But I'm definitely really happy about snake season. I need to figure out some way to deal.

I guess I could've used the accidentally-killed black snake we found while gardening the other week. She was really interested in smelling it. I tried to like make a loud noise with my hoe on the wheelbarrow when she got up in its dead business but that probably wasn't enough.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There will be someone in most areas who will have access to the snake and the equipment. It is not something I would ever, ever, do alone because it is an intense thing and if your timing is wrong with it then you're not going to make the dog associate the shock (and it is PAINFUL) with the right thing and will come away with more problems than not. You also kind of need to the actual venomous snakes in the area - training aversion to a garter snake, for instance, won't really make them avoid a copperhead. Well, maybe, but not worth the risk of it not going right. 

So, yeah, it's definitely something I felt was worth my time - we had a copperhead IN OUR KITCHEN a couple of years ago - but don't play with it on your own. Between the snake and the timing and crazy powerful shock (as in the dog WILL scream) you want to get it right and DEFINITELY don't want to get it wrong.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

I'm sorry, I know this is not want you want to hear, but for regular obedience training, there is absolutely NO need to use an 'e-collar'. I have spent much time speaking with Petsafe reps in the past, as well as playing with the collars myself and there are 2 points I need to make. 

#1) That slight tingly feeling you describe- you can bet that was just on level 1. The majority of these collars go up much much higher and most dogs needs a much stronger shock (sorry, yes. it is a shock) in order to respond in the manner you are hoping for. I would personally agree that to me, level 1 doesn't seem like a big deal, but the jump up to level 2 is surprisingly painful. which leads us to my second point. #2) you, nor anyone else, can decide what is a tolerable vs painful level of discomfort for your dog. only your dog can decide that. what may be a very manageable amount of pain for me, may be excruciating for you. Some people can sit and get their ribs tattooed for 5 hours and some people cry when they stub their toe. and your dog is no different. there are without a doubt some dogs that are pretty tough and can handle a shock collar on a moderate level without much concern. on the other hand, there are some dogs that are very very sensitive and become terrified very easily. and breed has nothing to do with it. this is not about a rottie being compared to a yorkie. this is based on each dog as an individual. my point is that YOU cannot accurately gauge how much discomfort your dog can handle.

you talk about wanting to enhance the command relationship between you and him. well an ecollar will pretty much guarantee you the opposite effect. you're relationship with your dog should not be based on a "do it or else" premise, but on trust, communication and understanding. I can assure you that there is not 1 obedience behaviour out there that you can name that cannot be taught efficiently and reliably without the use of physical correction. Petsafe is a business. And their goal is to tell you whatever you need to hear in order to buy their product. and the majority of it is a crock. and as for leerburg....well thats a whole separate rant i'll save for another day. for now i'll just say that that man has no business calling himself a trainer promoting the things that he does in 2015.

as Willowy mentioned, it would be helpful if you could mention some specific things you are trying to train your dog to do. i'm sure a bunch of us would be able to give you pointers on how to teach them without mildly electrocuting your dog.


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## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

I've used an E-collar for recall training. The dogs were going to be out in remote areas and needed to come when called.

We had a Tritronic collar and the only training we received was from the neighbor who said, "if you pop the dog on high they won't leave your side and you really don't want that." 

We only used the collar when we were going where there was lots of land and the dog(s) were going to be wandering. Like, up at family farms or when my husband would be working at remote sites up in the mountains.


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## notgaga (Oct 25, 2014)

That makes sense about using the right kind of snake, I just didn't know there were actual like people who could help me do this kind of thing. I seem to think you live somewhere in Virginia for some reason? I'm in North Carolina. Copperheads are everywhere all the time always around here. My friends and I actually, pretty cruelly, killed one at my tenth birthday party, which falls around Memorial Day weekend. 

And I'd've had a stroke if I found one in my house. Like, burn the house down, time to start fresh kind of reaction. 

Laika can come off as pretty confident and hard-headed, but I'll have to think really hard about wanting to use that method. She's actually pretty sensitive underneath it all. But we lucked out in that she didn't need antivenin, and now I don't want to press her luck. Venomous snakes ain't nothing to mess with, and I'm not sure how far R+ and leave it can go keep her safe.

edit: this is for cptjack, again I don't quote with my replies. d'oh.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Yes some unpleasant feeling is what it is but I don't think its the cruel stereotype people make it out to be. The video I'm watching at the moment is using low low levels. I think he's only used medium on one dog. He goes through a whole section on how to find the correct level for your dog. Yes recall training is a majority of what I want to use it for. I just don't want to have to worry about him going on trails or down to the river when he's off leash. He's extremely good at wait/stay down and sit but I know come is usually the hardest for all dogs. He's going to be a big dog it's not like this is a little dog who would be less of a threat to people. 140 lbs is what he's expected to be at. Another one he has real trouble with is jumping. Because he's going to be so big that obviously won't be acceptable but how can you train not to jump when none of the average bystanders out there don't know how to correct a jump? We go to the dog park a lot because he's young right now and it's good for him. His breed isn't normally social or people friendly but I've done so much socializing that he does love all people and dogs so now his problem is jumping up on people. Someone mentioned snake training the other day at the park with a collar. We do have copperheads and rattlers in the area. Thanks for all the replies!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have used an e-collar. Dog is still alive and not an emotional wreck. I found that it did sharpen his recall off leash. I do not even 'shock' the dog anymore. It is now just a tone, a beep and the dog comes. I have the sport dog model. I wanted something with a longer range and some waterproofing. I would stay away from the cheaper models. It is a get what you pay for in this world. You hold a cheap one in your hand and a nicer model and you can feel the quality. Cheaper models do not have a good range and often are not waterproof. I was worried more about the wet dew on the grass and the dog going swimming in the creek. 

I would not use an e-collar without having a long line on the dog. You need to train the dog what you still want. Some dogs will take off even on the smallest setting. I have never had this happen. But then I have only used it on two dogs. One dog was more aversion training. She was going after horses and believe me a kick from a horse or a bite and throw would result in more serious injuries than a zap from an e-collar. One time and she no longer sees horses as a play toy. 

I would not use a collar for DA. If two dogs are fighting the last thing an owner needs to do is zap the dogs to stop them from fighting. It could cause the dogs to escalate the battle because of the shock. I also would not use the collar on an elderly dog (not talking tone or vibration) or an animal with heart problems. 

It is like any other training tool out there. It can be useful or it can be abused by the training party. I find that mine is in the drawer more these days than it is on the dog.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Thank you luv mi pets. I saw the sportdog models here in town. I think though if I decided to try one I will go with the educator brand collars like they favorite on Leerburg. Didn't sportdog used to be Innotek? That was another brand this video mentioned as a nice one to have. 

I am going to get a long line too as this video mentions to use always when your starting out.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I think pet safe (Radio Fence) bought Innotek and also owns Sport dog . No matter what website you go to they will boost that their product is better. You just have to know what you want. I wanted range, water proofing,a tone so I did not have to correct all the time and most of all I am a shopper who has to see and hold it. I do a lot of business at the store where I purchased the collar from. So I felt confident, if I had to return it I could without a hassle. 

I feel people like yourself is going to try it, so I will give you my own experience and thoughts on the product. 


I know that the dogs who have been trained with this kind of training will act different with the collars on. I was talking to a dog owner who had one on his dog. I commented on nice the dog was behaving. The owner laughed and said the dog chewed up the remote to it so he had no way of correcting the dog but the dog always acted and behaved well once the collar was put on. I asked the owner how long ago the dog chewed up the remote. I was thinking recently. The owner told me it had been two years. 


I looked at the leerburgs. Nice I wonder how the round transmitter would do . If that would be better than the typical shape. You will have to let us know if that is the model you get.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Wait, it's a puppy? So this isn't even an "I've tried everything" kind of a thing, you're OPENING with a shock collar for basic obedience? 

Have you ever trained a dog from the start before?

IMO for things other than extreme situations (e.g. the snake aversion, last resort types of cases, deafness, certain field work) it's a really lazy way of training a dog.

I'm not inherently opposed to shock collars, but I hate all the dancing around it. If someone can't outright admit "I'm going to shock my dog into obeying me" then they shouldn't be using one for that. It's important to be realistic about what you're doing and why. To predict your outputs you need to correctly identify your inputs.

"e-collar." Good gravy. I'll put it right next to my "c-chain" and my "a-w stick."


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Leerburgs video addresses them associating the collar with acting different. To start out they say you shouldn't even start actually using it until two weeks later. It says changing collars wearing different ones for different amounts of time 2-4 times a day will help with that. Also praising when the collars goes on helps too. I'm stuck between the educator 400 with the round remote and the educator ez 900 with the regular style. I put them on Leerburgs compare chart and I can't see a difference other than the 900 has a tone option and the other one doesn't. You said you use tone a lot so I'm not sure what I want to go with yet. 

Parus I appreciate the concern but a 60 pound dog isn't exactly a "puppy" in my eyes. He's almost 6 months old and everything I'm reading and watching says that that is a good age to start after you have taught all the basic obedience commands. I'm not making up for lazyness.... He's been through like 15 weeks of puppy training classes since he was 8 weeks old. His breed is big his breed is stubborn. Even at 6 months is he extremely hard headed stubborn? No I wouldn't call it that yet but he is a little rebellious sometimes. If I thought he was the type of timid dog this could potentially hurt no I wouldn't ever think about doing it but he's defiantly not that. Like I said the come command I want to reinforce and I want to eliminate the jumping. I don't need to use this device to teach everything just reinforce some things. I don't know if you have ever watched someone use these collars properly but using the stimulation does nothing more than refocuses the dog to you. There's no yelping or jumping or cowering. They even say in here if your seeing any of that the stimulation is to high and you need to back off and go down a level. I don't really want to battle with wether e-collars are good or bad on here. I just want some info from people who have used them. Well and to be quite honest he mentions several times that the stimulation is way less than what a choke check or a prong collar check would be and honestly I think he's right. Correcting a dog with either of those things or a collar check in general I think is worse than this.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I read a huge pile of denial in that post, plus some advertising lines. "It's the perfect age to buy our product!"


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Nobody on a forum can help you with the actual use of a shock collar. Someone needs to show you how to get the timing right. If you're determined to use this type of collar for recall training and to punish jumping, find an expert who can show you how to use the thing in person.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

But Leerburg doesn't make collars so no they arnt telling me to buy their product... They arnt telling me to buy anything. It's just a video that provides people like me the knowledge on how you use one properly if I were to get one.... Once again he says this isn't a replacement for basic obedience. This is simply a reinforment to it if I want to do it. Age whatever.. He's still 60 pounds and getting bigger every day. It's not like this is a tiny Yorkie I'm trying to put this on or a timid spastic border collie....


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

It sounds like you're already set on the shock collar and you have a video you plan to follow, so what do you want from people here? Like it or not, if you ask about these collars on a dog forum that a lot of trainers post on, you're going to have some knowledgeable people criticizing your choices. You're not going to get any really useful tips on how to use the thing even from people who don't mind them, because that has to be shown, not explained in text.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

I know im not going to get instruction on here I just wanted people's experiences with them... And brand choices. Etc.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I have a collar and am in the process of doing the foundation work. You can PM me if you'd like to talk specifics.

For one, I would not start on a 5 month old puppy. I know that people recommend starting at 6 months, but those are experienced trainers who know exactly what they are doing. I've found it much much more beneficial to start my first dog much older (he's 2.5) after he has a solid understanding of cues and just needs the proofing. I don't mean this in an offensive way, but for your first dog I doubt that he really fully understands what you want at only 5 months old. I would work to get his cues solid first and then decide if you need to go the ecollar route

I would also find someone to help you in person. Videos are great (I highly recommend the Michael Ellis video) but having someone help you in person will make a ton of difference in whether you are successful or not. Choose the person carefully too - some people just shock the heck out of the dog and do not teach it in a way that the dog can understand.

I do agree with the others that it works because it is unpleasant. The dog learns that if he comes back to you, the shock turns off. It is also likely that at some point after the foundation work you will have to turn it up and correct the dog - it's not 100% done at the lowest level they can feel and at some point it is unpleasant for the dog.

I would not believe all of the hype you read about it. It can be a useful tool, but there is a lot of room for error and a lot of potential fallout.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Thank you elorwhen! I'm not 100 percent sold on the idea already I just really want to learn about it first. He's also not my first dog. He is a shepherd and smarter than most humans lol he's by far the easiest dog I've ever trained. Potty trained 100 percent. He does wait amazingly well for his age I think and that's with distractions. He will lay motionless in the middle of busy Petco or other scenarios. Or he will wait an hour till I tell him he can have his food or a treat sitting a ways a way from him. I don't really make him wait an hour but you get my point haha. I just want to focus on recall work with this collar mostly. We go to the dog park a lot and we also walk on trails and I want to be able to do it off leash. Defiantly will pm you. I thought about buying the Michael Ellis video because it is newer but it's also 120 dollars for the set. I bought the older one and it was 40. I still might buy the newer one. I'm not sure yet.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Zilla said:


> Thank you elorwhen! I'm not 100 percent sold on the idea already I just really want to learn about it first. He's also not my first dog. He is a shepherd and smarter than most humans lol he's by far the easiest dog I've ever trained. Potty trained 100 percent. He does wait amazingly well for his age I think and that's with distractions. He will lay motionless in the middle of busy Petco or other scenarios. Or he will wait an hour till I tell him he can have his food or a treat sitting a ways a way from him. I don't really make him wait an hour but you get my point haha. I just want to focus on recall work with this collar mostly. We go to the dog park a lot and we also walk on trails and I want to be able to do it off leash. Defiantly will pm you. I thought about buying the Michael Ellis video because it is newer but it's also 120 dollars for the set. I bought the older one and it was 40. I still might buy the newer one. I'm not sure yet.


He's a shepherd? Didn't you say he was going to be 140lbs or something? I just missed the shepherd part with the size.

If his training is going so well and he's responding to everything, then I don't really see the point of the ecollar right now, personally. I would work on getting the cues as solid as possible and you may never need the collar. I know some people go to it for every dog, but I would only use it as a last resort.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

He's a Bulgarian Shepherd so no not exactly the typical German Shepherd but he still has that brain. I'm not going to try the collar first. I am defiantly going to invest in a long line like Leerburg uses in the video first and see where I get with that and then go from there...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Zilla said:


> He's a Bulgarian Shepherd so no not exactly the typical German Shepherd but he still has that brain. I'm not going to try the collar first. I am defiantly going to invest in a long line like Leerburg uses in the video first and see where I get with that and then go from there...


Ahh, I haven't heard of a bulgarian shepherd.

Yeah, definitely start with the long line and training the recall positively. Many shepherd do quite well off leash without needing an ecollar for recall. I only decided to use one with my dog when his recall started to fall apart related to his prey/hunting instinct. He was very good up to about 10 months, and then we worked hard on it for another year, and only now I've gone to the collar. The solid recall foundation he has has made using the collar so much faster and easier than it otherwise would have been. 

ETA: Just read up on the breed and it seems they are much more a livestock guardian dog than a working dog like a GSD, so I would expect the recall to possibly deteriorate as the dog goes through adolescence, and for him to become more independent minded. I would still wait until he's older and you've exhausted positive methods before trying the collar, and definitely working with a professional.

I do know people who start 6 month old IPO dogs on ecollars, but those are people who train 30-60min a day and have lots and lots of experience doing it.

I've been renting the Michael Ellis dvds from Bowowflix.com. His videos in general are very good. One is about technique, and the entire second video about when he will and when he won't use the collar. I think it's really important to understand what it is not good for, because it can be easy to get so excited about the collar that you start using it for everything to the detriment of the dog.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Zilla said:


> Like I said the come command I want to reinforce and I want to eliminate the jumping. I don't need to use this device to teach everything just reinforce some things.


 I believe that's the third time in this thread where you've used the word reinforce. You probably need to start by getting your terminology correct. Call it semantics if you wish to but what you actually want to do is punish the dog for non-compliance.

That's part of the problem with these kinds of devices .. slick, crafty, cunning manipulation of advertising content by unscrupulous manufacturers who want to avoid backlash and merely hope to enhance their bottom line / profits. Calling a product an "Educator" is a case in point, similar to calling a barbed wire fence or a billybat an educator. Using an ecollar to "reinforce" commands is equally deceptive. It's part and parcel with the propaganda train. The theory these collars work on is punishment plain and simple.


If you want to use punishment to train your pup that's entirely up to you. I'd think long and hard though if it's the best way to go, and what damage it may cause. Know the risks like the back of your hand before you begin. And above all don't fall victim to the silver-tongued punishment pimps lurking in the darkest corners of the training world. Understand WHO and what it is you're dealing with.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Technically, it is reinforcement if the END of pain increases a behavior. As in, shock the dog until it comes to you, then stop the shock. That end of shock is supposed to increase the behavior of coming when called. The START of the pain (used for something like shocking the dog when they jump) would most likely be punishment because it's used to decrease the jumping.

Of course, that only really works in the behaviors increase or decrease. Obviously one would assume that the end of shocks would cause a behavior to go up (thus making it reinforcement), but you shouldn't really assume anything until you actually SEE the behaviors increase or decrease. We might say that getting ice cream will reinforce doing your homework, but if the kid is lactose intolerant or just doesn't like ice cream, it's not necessarily going to work out the way we thought.

Either way, I'm against shock collars and still manage to have a giant well-behaved dog.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yes, most ecollar training uses -R, not +P. Snake aversion training would be an example of +P, but a good trainer will not recommend using it as +P in general.

As long as we're talking semantics, I think that's an important distinction.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If the end of the shock is the "reward", when does the shocking start? It has to start in order to end, lol. Like, do you hit the zap button when you call them or before you call them? At that point aren't you punishing them for just standing around? Or starting to come to you? I guess I don't understand how that sort of shock collar use works.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> If the end of the shock is the "reward", when does the shocking start? It has to start in order to end, lol. Like, do you hit the zap button when you call them or before you call them? At that point aren't you punishing them for just standing around? Or starting to come to you? I guess I don't understand how that sort of shock collar use works.


You call first, wait a beat, and if the dog doesn't turn back you stim (at a low level - this is not a game of zapping the dog until he cries). If the dog beats the stim and turns back quickly, he doesn't get stimmed at all. If he does get stimmed, he turns back and the stim stops as soon as he has made a step or two towards the handler (-R). In the initial stages a long line is used to help direct the dog back to the handler so he understands, though if the dog already has a pretty solid recall in most situations it's much easier for them to make the connection, IMO.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

You start the shock the second you call the dog and it doesn't start to return. You end it when the dog starts back. 

The dog is not 2 feet away from you staring vacantly when you start the shock anymore than you do a recall with the dog beside you.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh. So it is punishment for not coming right away. I don't see how that's any different than the usual way. What makes that R- rather than P+?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Oh. So it is punishment for not coming right away. I don't see how that's any different than the usual way.


Because the dog has the power to turn the punishment OFF. I'm not arguing it's 'better' or less aversive and neither is anyone else, but it's a different theory of learning quadrant. Most punishment - dog does a thing, gets hurt. This one dog doesn't do a thing, gets hurt, and continues to be hurt until he does the thing at which point the hurt stops and he's rewarded. 

And I'm using hurt here rather than any other word mostly to prove I'm not surgar coating (and neither is anyone else, though frankly most recall training with an e-collar is far from painful based on DOG'S reactions). It's aversive. It just makes NOT doing aversive instead of DOING. Hence the different quadrant.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Oh. So it is punishment for not coming right away. I don't see how that's any different than the usual way.


What usual way?

You do understand the difference between -R and +P, correct?

I'm not saying it's +R in any way, or that it doesn't work by being annoying or even painful, or that it's not compulsion based training. I just think that it's important for people to understand that there are different ways to use an ecollar and there are ways to do it humanely (if you think any compulsion based training can ever be humane, no matter how gentle). 

It's really not any different than putting your dog on a long line, calling him, and if he ignores you tugging at the long line until he comes. Does it have more potential for fallout? Absolutely. Is it easier to abuse? Yes. Does it have the potential to cause pain? Yes. Does it work through compulsion? Yes. Is it fundamentally any different in training method than just tugging on the leash in an annoying manner until the dog turns back? No.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There are a lot of things that are aversive in dog training that people like to pretend aren't aversive, frankly, while clutching their pearls at other things that are very similarly aversive that either look worse, have a less pleasant reputation, or more potential for abuse.

While I think caution regarding the potential for abuse is all well and good, I think sometimes people forget how to think for themselves and just parrot back information.

"OMG YOU USE A PRONG!!! That's AWFUL! Have you tried a no pull harness?"

Guess how a no pull harness works, folks. Go on. Guess.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Quadrants can be tough because they don't use the typical definitions of things. I still struggle with some of the more complex situations on my quizzes. But basically, -R works on the idea of RELIEF from something. Headaches, shocks... whatever it is, that relief (the LOSS of something painful or aversive, so it's "negative") causes an INCREASE in behavior (buying aspirin, coming when called...) - which is reinforcement.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> There are a lot of things that are aversive in dog training that people like to pretend aren't aversive, frankly, while clutching their pearls at other things that are very similarly aversive that either look worse, have a less pleasant reputation, or more potential for abuse.
> 
> While I think caution regarding the potential for abuse is all well and good, I think sometimes people forget how to think for themselves and just parrot back information.
> 
> ...


Yes, completely agree. A lot of +R people use techniques that are aversive or compulsive but because it's a gentle leader or a no pull harness or a light leash tug on a harnessed dog they think it's not compulsion. But it is. At least be aware.

I do think that tools with more potential for fallout or abuse should *NOT* be recommended for beginners, and should not be used without a lot of research and professional help. But it doesn't mean the tool is inherently evil and impossible to use in a responsible way.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Effisia said:


> Quadrants can be tough because they don't use the typical definitions of things. I still struggle with some of the more complex situations on my quizzes. But basically, -R works on the idea of RELIEF from something. Headaches, shocks... whatever it is, that relief (the LOSS of something painful or aversive, so it's "negative") causes an INCREASE in behavior (buying aspirin, coming when called...) - which is reinforcement.


Yes, exactly. 

Training leash pressure (silky leash) is another good example. Light pressure is applied to the collar, and pressure is relieved as soon as the dog turns into it. Dog learns that collar pressure decreases if he stops pulling and walks with his owner.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> "OMG YOU USE A PRONG!!! That's AWFUL! Have you tried a no pull harness?"
> 
> Guess how a no pull harness works, folks. Go on. Guess.


Prongs are super scary-looking 

I don't usually have a problem with things like prongs or shock for snake training and those things if I think the person using them knows how and has a good reason for it. It's just not my thing, personally, and not something I would readily suggest to clients unless EVERY possible avenue is exhausted.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I do think that tools with more potential for fallout or abuse should *NOT* be recommended for beginners, and should not be used without a lot of research and professional help. But it doesn't mean the tool is inherently evil and impossible to use in a responsible way.


THIS. This is what I was trying to say. I think I need more coffee...


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

There's different methods to using a collar according to this video. In the past people have used it as avoidance training meaning you shock the dog until u get the correct response. That's not what he does in this video and that's not the method he likes. His is using the nick button 1 to 1 and a half seconds after you give a command and there's no response. So he uses nick button on the collar to get the dogs attention. There's never any continuous stimulation used. Avoidance training I can defiantly see why people have an issue with it. What he's doing not so much... Like I said before I think it's way less than what certain people do with a prong collar and check their dog with it every second to get a response. That I won't do.... But regardless it's going to be long line work for me first and possibly collar later. At least I'm asking for advice and learning to use one instead of one of those crazy people who go out and buy one throw it on the dog and start nailing him until he's panicked and confused.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

It strikes me as problematic to use shocks for recall, and to use shocks to punish jumping up, especially in a young dog whose cues aren't solid. On the one hand, you are shocking the dog for not coming, and on the other you're shocking the dog for getting too enthusiastic about how it approaches you. 

To me, it's not unreasonable to use a shock collar for recall in a particularly bloody-minded dog, if other methods have failed, because the difficult thing with recall is that the dog is out of your physical reach, and often out of one's sort of "paying attention radius." But in contrast, there are SO MANY tools for effectively teaching a dog not to jump up, because the dog is right there and engaged with you. Honestly, if someone has to resort to shocking a pup to stop jumping up, I would question whether they have the training skills to safely use that shock collar.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

You could not make me suggest someone else use a prong collar, or a shock collar, or, really, almost any sort of training/correction tool. The best you'll get from me is suggesting those people seek a professional who uses a variety of methods and uses them well/has experience with them. 

On line, that's basically never.

But I roll my eyes SO HARD at people who spend all their time being horrified that I keep Thud on a prong as an emergency back up, while walking their dog on a halti. I mean REALLY now, at least be aware that your method also works via making pulling uncomfortable and being able to use compulsion more effectively.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

parus said:


> It strikes me as problematic to use shocks for recall, and to use shocks to punish jumping up, especially in a young dog whose cues aren't solid. On the one hand, you are shocking the dog for not coming, and on the other you're shocking the dog for getting too enthusiastic about how it approaches you.
> 
> To me, it's not unreasonable to use a shock collar for recall in a particularly bloody-minded dog, if other methods have failed, because the difficult thing with recall is that the dog is out of your physical reach, and often out of one's sort of "paying attention radius." But in contrast, there are SO MANY tools for effectively teaching a dog not to jump up, because the dog is right there and engaged with you. Honestly, if someone has to resort to shocking a pup to stop jumping up, I would question whether they have the training skills to safely use that shock collar.


Definitely agree with all of this. I would not use an ecollar for jumping up, especially if you are using it for recall. I think it's easy to want to use it for everything but there are a lot of things that it should not be used for.

Michael Ellis' video (second disc) is really great at going through the pros and cons of what behaviors you can use it. He does it in a very thoughtful way and makes really great points.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> It strikes me as problematic to use shocks for recall, and to use shocks to punish jumping up, especially in a young dog whose cues aren't solid. On the one hand, you are shocking the dog for not coming, and on the other you're shocking the dog for getting too enthusiastic about how it approaches you.


This is a good point, and based on my experience (which is limited) a potential problem. You're pretty much going to have to pick how you use the thing. It's not as multi-purpose as it might first appear.

You can pretty well pick at that point, and that means using it for the recall or the jumping. Me, I'd go recall.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm working with a trainer who recommended the ecollar before she knew I had already bought one, and then she was horrified that I had bought one myself. Haha. Despite using them she does not think they should be available to the general public and that most people use them incorrectly. So yeah, not something I would recommend to someone over the internet. I do think it's important to educate if people ask about it because it is misunderstood and often misused.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also, honestly, "nicks the button for a second or two if there's no response" and 'I won't use a prong collar to check my dog until I get a response'. 

Um. This is the same thing. 

Like not even picking on you, but it's literally the same method, with about the same level of pain, for the same purpose and same duration. There is literally no difference between them. If you have an issue with one of these/are comfortable with it, you should have an issue with the other.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Also, honestly, "nicks the button for a second or two if there's no response" and 'I won't use a prong collar to check my dog until I get a response'.
> 
> Um. This is the same thing.
> 
> Like not even picking on you, but it's literally the same method, with about the same level of pain, for the same purpose and same duration. If you have an issue with one of these, you should have an issue with the other.


Yep, agreed.

Also, many trainers will recommend constant stim until the dog turns back, rather than a nick which can be confusing. There are different methodologies which is one reason that I think it's important to work with a professional who uses it the way you want to use it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> What usual way?


Heh, I guess that's the only way I've seen shock collars used---the hunter calls the dog and if he doesn't come fast enough the hunter leans on the button until the dog does come back, or at least looks like he's coming back. I suppose I never saw a difference between that and zapping the dog for barking or jumping, because you stop zapping when he stops barking or jumping, right? 

And, yeah, I know the difference---P+ is "makes bad thing happen" and R- is "makes bad thing go away", but I guess there's always been overlap in my head since in order to make a bad thing go away, you have to make a bad thing happen first. . .


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also, I wanted to say re: aversion training.

What most people mention here, they actually don't have an issue with, because it's done both as a one and done deal (repeats may be necessary over the life of the dog, but not daily, or annually or ongoing), it saves lives, and it is one of the few, rare, situations where rewards based training *does not work*. It also, by near necessity, has to be done by a professional who knows what they're doing. 

It's teaching the dog that something is scary, horrifying, bad, and REALLY HURTS and to fear the thing. There are almost no situations short of things like chasing horses or risk of a snake bite that you need to do that, or there is any benefit of doing that. 

Frankly, also, it doesn't involve the non-professional owner much, if at all and again: not an ongoing process and it is something that can not be taught via positive or less negative methods. That radically lowers the potential for unintended fall out, as well as radically lowering the chances of one of my dogs being bitten by a venomous snake. 

That's why not a single person here has said 'snake aversion is bad', while you seem to be thinking it is somehow HIGHER RISK and a WORSE use of it.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> "OMG YOU USE A PRONG!!! That's AWFUL! Have you tried a no pull harness?"
> 
> Guess how a no pull harness works, folks. Go on. Guess.


There are some people who are indeed just reacting to the "mean" look of the prong collar. But I do think it's a legit point that in unskilled, inexperienced hands, a prong collar has the potential to do more damage than a no-pull harness. 

IMO it's similar with a shock collar - in the hands of an individual with strong hands-on experience, in an appropriate situation, with a light hand, the shock collar doesn't have to cause problems or be used abusively. But let's face it - most of the people buying shock collars off Amazon aren't experienced trainers who can use them strategically and appropriately.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't really think it's an unfair point to ask the question or to inquire about skill level or to even think things like prongs and shock collars shouldn't be available for sale to the general public, or easily accessible. 

I DO think the denial about a no pull harness or head-halters being an aversive for the dog is just about the most eye-roll worthy thing I see amongst the dog community.

Most eye-roll worthy for me in that particular tool discussion though are still people who are horrified by prongs but think nothing of using chain choke collars.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

parus said:


> There are some people who are indeed just reacting to the "mean" look of the prong collar. But I do think it's a legit point that in unskilled, inexperienced hands, a prong collar has the potential to do more damage than a no-pull harness.
> 
> IMO it's similar with a shock collar - in the hands of an individual with strong hands-on experience, in an appropriate situation, with a light hand, the shock collar doesn't have to cause problems or be used abusively. But let's face it - most of the people buying shock collars off Amazon aren't experienced trainers who can use them strategically and appropriately.


Again, no disagreement there. I wouldn't mind if they were restricted and only sold to professional trainers who had proven that they could use them responsibly or something (no idea how they would do that exactly). And I think there are a lot of Joe Schmo's out there using them incorrectly and possibly abusively (and even experienced trainers who should know better).

But I also agree with CptJack that it bugs me when people who should know better are completely against prongs and ecollars on principle, but not against other methods that are also aversive or compulsive just because they look nicer. At least admit when a training method is aversive or compulsive and don't call a no pull harness positive training but a prong horrible and evil. Not saying you in particular are doing this, but it's an attitude I do see online a lot.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> I don't really think it's an unfair point to ask the question or to inquire about skill level and other methods tried or what have you, but I think the denial about a no pull harness or head-halters being an aversive for the dog is just about the most eye-roll worthy thing I see amongst the dog community.


Oh, for sure. 

I honestly wouldn't give a head halter to a "my dog walks naughty on a leash  " person either, though, because you can do a fair bit of injury with a head halter, even if it doesn't LOOK as mean as a prong collar. OTOH plenty of no-pull harnesses are pretty newbie-proof.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> But I also agree with CptJack that it bugs me when people who should know better are completely against prongs and ecollars on principle, but not against other methods that are also aversive or compulsive just because they look nicer. At least admit when a training method is aversive or compulsive and don't call a no pull harness positive training but a prong horrible and evil. Not saying you in particular are doing this, but it's an attitude I do see online a lot.



This, basically, is much better said but what I meant.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parus said:


> Oh, for sure.
> 
> I honestly wouldn't give a head halter to a "my dog walks naughty on a leash  " person either, though, because you can do a fair bit of injury with a head halter, even if it doesn't LOOK as mean as a prong collar. OTOH plenty of no-pull harnesses are pretty newbie-proof.


Yeah, I tried a head-collar with Thud. He was going to die. 

No pull harnesses just left him lunging and then being pulled back and falling on his side. Weirdly enough, but it was because he didn't pull - he LUNGED suddenly in random directions. So that was getting dangerous, too.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I also don't like the assumption that anybody who uses a prong or an ecollar is going around giving their dog harsh corrections or frying them with the collar.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, I tried a head-collar with Thud. He was going to die.
> 
> No pull harnesses just left him lunging and then being pulled back and falling on his side. Weirdly enough, but it was because he didn't pull - he LUNGED suddenly in random directions. So that was getting dangerous, too.


Aww, Thud.

You have to admit Thud is kind of a special case, though 

Your Thud stories make me glad my super hard dog only weighs 40 lbs. I sometimes imagine her scaled up to the size of my 120 lb dog, and...just no. lol


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> I also don't like the assumption that anybody who uses a prong or an ecollar is going around giving their dog harsh corrections or frying them with the collar.


Maybe I'm biased due to seeing a few really stupid situations, but: I think with an inexperienced person, the collar use tends to escalate. They start off low, and do not get the results they want, because they are not using the collar very effectively. Then they ramp up, because hey, clearly the lower settings weren't enough for their particularly naughty dog...meanwhile, if the dog is hard enough, their clumsy use is desensitizing the dog to lower zaps, making it so they really do have to approach "fry the dog" levels for the dog to react.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Just to clarify the nick button is only 1/2 second of stimulation. There is no continuous stimulation used... Some dogs/breeds I would never use this on. But if the dog isn't cowering/yelping or jumping from the level of stimulation you are using I don't see how it's the same as jerking him around on a prong collar.... I don't have anything against prong collars either. I've used them for pull situations in the past so no offense to anyone here who uses them. I'm mainly talking about the people who over check their dogs with them...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

"Just no." Is pretty much my reaction to many things Thud. I love him dearly, but I do not want him again.

And yeah, he is kind of a situation most people are not going to encounter. OTOH, anyone who owns a giant, independent, dog with a lot of prey-drive.... 

Okay, actually maybe not so much since usually prey-drive doesn't come with giant, but still. God, Thud.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I promise you a leash correction with a prong lasts less than a half second and doesn't make the dog yelp or jerk around, either. 

Just sayin'. I mean you can use the e-collar if you want but you're trying to draw distinctions that don't exist.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

I'm not set on using it.... I simply came here to get information on it because I don't see how it's so unbearably "wrong" for the paticular breed/dog I have.... That's all... If it even came down to it.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Zilla said:


> Just to clarify the nick button is only 1/2 second of stimulation.


If the dog is hard enough that you actually need a shock collar for run-of-the-mill training, then there's a very good chance that the dog is hard enough that a half second on the lower setting is not going to do jack.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah. Good point. 

Let me tell you a little story about Thud. Thud was about, I don't know, a year old? Maybe less, but somewhere around there, and made a running leap toward my kid on the stairs, and within a hair's breath of knocking him down them. I prevented this by grabbing Thud by the scruff of his neck and tail, and flinging him probably four feet and shoved him in his crate while screaming "NO!" Not the most reasoned action on my part, not something I'm proud of, but heat of the moment and a huge adrenaline rush - it doesn't sound bad, but trust me, my kid would have died. 

Thud had absolutely no reaction to it at all. None. Did not care. Did not get stressed. Did not suck up. Did not learn a bloody thing. Stood there and wagged at me, and then derpily moved on with his life.

There is a point where a dog is sufficiently hard that punishment actually becomes COMPLETELY ineffective because the dog does not care about pain or your approval. At that stage, your options are pretty much "Find a way to make it worth the dog's time to do what you want" and "Manage"

But Thud is... kind of an unusually hard dog. I've used some aversive methods with him as management (see also: prong for walking/control) but I could leash correct, hit, yell, shock, whatever him until the end of the world and I wouldn't MAKE that dog do ANYTHING. 

You... should probably be prepared for that possibility. Not saying you'll have it, but be prepared for it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Basically, the effectiveness of ALL training is fundamentally hinged on the dog caring about you/what you want. In positive you can influence that by rewarding the dog and making it care about getting the food, with negative you can influence it by something being sufficiently unpleasant to stop undesired behavior.

But either way, you have to build SOME value into working with you. This is easier to achieve with some dogs than others.

(Also Parus, seriously: "Just No" is OFTEN my reaction to Thud. I love him intensely but. LOL, No.)


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. Good point.
> 
> Let me tell you a little story about Thud. Thud was about, I don't know, a year old? Maybe less, but somewhere around there, and made a running leap toward my kid on the stairs, and within a hair's breath of knocking him down them. I prevented this by grabbing Thud by the scruff of his neck and tail, and flinging him probably four feet and shoved him in his crate while screaming "NO!" Not the most reasoned action on my part, not something I'm proud of, but heat of the moment and a huge adrenaline rush - it doesn't sound bad, but trust me, my kid would have died.
> 
> ...


Exactly. My extremely hard dog is actually the one that sold me on the utility of near-exclusive R+ methods. Because there is literally no point in P+ or R- with her. Any punishment bad enough to bother her is liable to do actual physical damage. What does work (more often than not) is making her think doing what I want is AWESOME. 

IMO with these types of dogs, things like prongs and no-pull harnesses are often more management tools than training tools. They're not really teaching the dog much about leash walking, they're just preventing the dog from destroying you long enough to learn to walk on a leash. I used a no-pull harness on Queenie (she has no neck, so collar isn't an option) and I don't think it would have done much absent the active R+ teaching of heeling. She'd have been content to swing around derpily on the end of the harness indefinitely.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

Well yes I am aware his breed could potentially turn out like that cptjack. That's why I've tried to hard to stay away from the typical characteristics. Like the major socializing and the puppy classes from the very beginning to trump what could potentially be a problem I can't fix later on when he's 140 pounds. Like I said if I used one after seeing everything here and watching the video it wouldn't be until after I do a lot of long line work just like he recommends. So on another subject to everyone who's posted here. I said we go to the dog park a lot so how would you go about correcting a jump when he's off leash in a fenced area? He knows not to jump on me but when other people go all Googly eyed over the fluffy panda dog he does tend to jump up sometimes lol so how can I correct that when I'm not next to him?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Zilla said:


> Well yes I am aware his breed could potentially turn out like that cptjack. That's why I've tried to hard to stay away from the typical characteristics. Like the major socializing and the puppy classes from the very beginning to trump what could potentially be a problem I can't fix later on when he's 140 pounds. Like I said if I used one after seeing everything here and watching the video it wouldn't be until after I do a lot of long line work just like he recommends. So on another subject to everyone who's posted here. I said we go to the dog park a lot so how would you go about correcting a jump when he's off leash in a fenced area? He knows not to jump on me but when other people go all Googly eyed over the fluffy panda dog he does tend to jump up sometimes lol so how can I correct that when I'm not next to him?


I would build a high reinforcement history of having 4 paws on the ground, and a history of sitting when he wants something.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> (Also Parus, seriously: "Just No" is OFTEN my reaction to Thud. I love him intensely but. LOL, No.)


Haha, yes. <3 On the bright side, now you should be able to train anything!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'd also recognize that to some degree that this is a self-limiting behavior. Yes, he will jump up forever for strangers who invite him but the history of four on the floor at home and with you, and the fact that people are not going to continue to invite him to maul them will take care of the rest. If he does it once in a while because someone invited him the world hasn't ended. If he does it to people who don't invite him, go over, leash him up, ask for a sit and regain control of him. He'll get it. 

Benefits of huge dogs: People eventually stop trying to encourage them to be idiots and grab at them. 

(And yes, the prong was and sometimes is absolutely management for us. It no longer engages unless his collar breaks, but most of what taught him was a 3" training tab to keep him from physically disengaging while we walked. NOW he walks okay about 95% of the time but I still stick that sucker on him when out in high prey areas, because I don't want to die.)



> Haha, yes. <3 On the bright side, now you should be able to train anything!


THIS IS TRUE! Somehow it has not left me with the desire to own a Mal. It has, however, left me danged certain I COULD own any-freaking-thing I wanted to. And makes me kind of miss having a pyr.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Zilla said:


> He knows not to jump on me but when other people go all Googly eyed over the fluffy panda dog he does tend to jump up sometimes lol so how can I correct that when I'm not next to him?


What I would NOT recommend is zapping him for enthusiastically greeting strangers, even if he's greeting them inappropriately. Sometimes what you think you're training is not what you're actually training. 

Rewards for staying on the ground. Rewards for desired greeting behaviors. Enlisting the help of reliable other people to help you generalize the expectation to people other than you, and in the meantime not letting him loose around strangers who will positively reinforce his jumping up by being like AWWW FLUFFY PUPPY, COME CLIMB ME!

eta: as CptJack pointed out, if someone invites a big dog to jump on them, they kind of deserve what they get, lol.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

CptJack said:


> THIS IS TRUE! Somehow it has not left me with the desire to own a Mal. It has, however, left me danged certain I COULD own any-freaking-thing I wanted to. And makes me kind of miss having a pyr.


I like pyrs. They're so happy and stolid.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

parus said:


> I like pyrs. They're so happy and stolid.


Yeah, they're kind of like Thud without the prey-drive and energy level. I can deal with that. Maybe someday.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

parus said:


> If the dog is hard enough that you actually need a shock collar for run-of-the-mill training, then there's a very good chance that the dog is hard enough that a half second on the lower setting is not going to do jack.


Yes, this.

I also think that the nick is harder to understand than constant stim. If I use constant stim, my dog learns very quickly that turning back towards me turns off the stim. If he's quick, it will feel like a nick, but if he's really not coming back the constant stim is going to annoy him until he turns back around.

Just nicking a dog isn't as clear, and can become nagging if you just keep nicking the dog because he's not coming back.

I like this set of articles (though I did introduce the actual recall cue faster than he recommends, because I felt it would be clearer for my particular dog what he needed to do to be correct): http://www.loucastle.com/recall


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Zilla said:


> Well yes I am aware his breed could potentially turn out like that cptjack. That's why I've tried to hard to stay away from the typical characteristics. Like the major socializing and the puppy classes from the very beginning to trump what could potentially be a problem I can't fix later on when he's 140 pounds. Like I said if I used one after seeing everything here and watching the video it wouldn't be until after I do a lot of long line work just like he recommends. So on another subject to everyone who's posted here. I said we go to the dog park a lot so how would you go about correcting a jump when he's off leash in a fenced area? He knows not to jump on me but when other people go all Googly eyed over the fluffy panda dog he does tend to jump up sometimes lol so how can I correct that when I'm not next to him?


I would ask people to turn their backs when he jumps.

The problem with correcting him remotely with the collar when he jumps is that he's thinking:
"Yay person!!! I love people!"
Then you shock him.
Now he might think "Ack! People! They make shocks happen!"

You have to be really really careful about superstitious behavior when you use the ecollar. I would never use it in relation to other people or other dogs because it can create negative associations and reactions. Especially for a dog who is going to be guardy by nature you could create a huge issue.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I'd like to comment on your "But he's SO BIG!!!" comments vis a vis shock collar training at 6 months of age. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how big he is, he's still developmentally 6 months old. He's still a puppy. You can only expect so much from a puppy. Puppies blow off recall, puppies jump on people, puppies are goofy _because they are puppies_.

To put it another way, would you assign children to different grades in school based on height? "You're under x inches, so you go to kindergarten. You're over x inches, so you go to second grade." That's ludicrous, right? So is deciding that your 6 month old puppy shouldn't act like a 6 month old puppy because he's bigger than the average.

Also, there is no shock snake avoidance training. It may not be what any particular person wishes to do, but to say "this is where positive training fails" is wrong.

ETA: Kabota and I came across a cute little garter snake once. I was admiring his lovely green head and looked over to see Kabota frozen. I scared off the snake and Kabota still wouldn't move. I had to pick him up and carry him for what felt like 5 miles (probably 50 feet, I'm not strong) before he would move again. Had that been a venomous snake, I'm not sure what I would have done. I stopped walking him around Lake Scranton after that because copperheads are common on that trail.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

am coming in very late but are you referring to a (( Karakachan )) LGD as your breed ?

if you want to ask people who have this breed working their livestock and have used collars for various reasons ...

https://www.facebook.com/groups/LearningAboutLGDs/

I didn't use adverse training on my CO ,,, because like you said this is going to be a very big dog, very dominant breed, easy to drag you around like a rag doll and do what ever he wants to as a full grown adult. Right now your in the happy puppy ages before he matures best time to go in and really work on building that bond to work with you willingly as your foundation, not a good thing to teach him to fight against you... If your pup can't handle meeting people,, then don't set yourself up for failure... start at the beginning of what you want to accomplish train at a distance to sit heel stay next to you or down stay and watch people... get that first.... before you move closer for advance training slowly over time... You wont regret getting that strong bond foundation now...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Here is the problem with 'positive' snake avoidance training:

You have to keep doing it. Dogs who are not naturally afraid of snakes (which is rare) will not generalize it (PS: My dogs who are afraid of venomous snakes local to the area, which is what you need to do the training, have ZERO fear of our pet snakes or garter snakes or rat snakes. Because they're not dumb and a garter snake is not a copperhead and dogs can tell). Which means that you need to train it on a venomous snake. 

To do it positively, you'd need long repeated sessions - same as training anything else via reward.

ARE YOU SERIOUSLY telling me you would rather risk your dog's LIFE in training him to avoid snakes, by virtue of exposing him to snake (and yourself!) than use a shock collar? At that stage, seriously, lol - don't bother. You're at greater risk of getting your dog killed in the process of trying to train that than you are in stumbling across one that isn't stressed and can get away. 

What would you have done if he'd found a copperhead and frozen? Nothing. because frozen dogs don't get bitten. The snake doesn't want to bite your dog, but if your dog goes after the snake in a playful, curious or predatory way it will be. So you'd have picked your dog up and carried him away or led him away. Without snake bite holes in him.

No. There is absolutely not a way to even REMOTELY positively snake train a dog. NONE. AT ALL. That is not irresponsible and risking your dog's life repeatedly and drastically through the process of training, and even then the failure rate is INCREDIBLY high. That is not an opinion or false, that is FREAKING FACT, however much you might want to deny it.

You got lucky and have a dog that's afraid of snakes (or one that was snake trained in the past). Great. Get back to me when you get a dog who wants to play with them and they're coming IN YOUR HOUSE, not on a trail you can choose not to get to. You can choose not to do the training at all, no harm no foul but anyone trying to use REWARD to train snake avoidance is an irresponsible fool who is going to get their dog KILLED, maybe themselves killed or seriously inured-

And shouldn't be allowed any kind of pet at ALL.

(And yes, I feel that strongly about it. If you can't do it in good conscience, don't. Point out that there's no empirical data gathered that it works, fine, but for the love of GOD don't go play with this on your own. No one is going to let you borrow their 'safe' venomous snakes to do it with (defanged which is cruel and I didn't/won't use) or snakes who have been milked, no one who knows how to safely handle hot reptiles is going to work with you because of the risk to you/your dog, trying to work with venomous snakes yourself is profoundly stupid, and working with garter, rat, or nonvenomous or non-native species is useless. 

Just stay out of terrain where snakes are likely and keep your dog on a leash and near you. Odds of being bitten like that are slim to none.)

**ETA:** I found one program that does 'leave it' work with a dead rattle snake. They also use aversive methods just different ones - mostly scaring the dog instead of hurting it - and still stresses, strongly, that it is not particularly effective and not to expect it to work in a real life situation. 

And no, no empirical data has been done proving the effectiveness of shock snake training and it could have fall out. Yes. It can. Never denied it. Worth it for me. Maybe not others. In that case just don't do it but again, please, for the love of god, don't go play with that at home with OR WITHOUT a shock collar. It's asking for really, really bad results.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

My dog's only 18 lbs and not 100+, but I still don't let him jump on people. The very first thing I ever taught him was to stare into my eyes when he wants something. The second thing I taught him was to _sit_ while staring into my eyes when he wants something. Whether it's a treat, a toy, attention... when that dog wants something, he plunks his butt on the floor and stares into my eyes. Before I put down his food bowl, he sits and stares. Before I throw a toy, he sits and stares. Before he gets a treat, he sits and stares. And on and on. We reinforced that so much that he does the same thing with strangers.

With any behavior that you're trying to _stop_, the easiest thing to do is teach an incompatible behavior that you'd rather the dog do instead. Dog has a habit of jumping on people who come to your door? Take some time to teach him that when people enter the house, he should sit for a reward. A sitting dog cannot jump. Sitting when people enter will become second nature to him.

I agree with those who have said that if you're going to use the e-collar, choose it for either recall or jumping, but not both because you're going to confuse the dog. I'm choose recall because jumping is a tricky one. Sometimes you may think you're punishing one thing (dog jumps, dog gets zapped for jumping) when the dog is not associating the zap with the proper thing (dog jumps, dog gets zapped, dog thinks he's being punished for interacting with a stranger, dog starts disliking strangers). Happens _all_ the time.

And I agree that the constant stim that stops when the dog turns back toward you makes more sense than a "nick," which is basically the equivalent of a sharp tug on a leash and may confuse your dog.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> A sitting dog cannot jump.


Oh.....I beg to differ. You've never seen my 90 pound ground to air missile shoot straight up into the air from a solid sit and muzzle punch me in the face in the obedience show ring (thinking he was giving me celebratory kisses.) LOL


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

PatriciafromCO said:


> I didn't use adverse training on my CO ,,, because like you said this is going to be a very big dog, very dominant breed, easy to drag you around like a rag doll and do what ever he wants to as a full grown adult. Right now your in the happy puppy ages before he matures best time to go in and really work on building that bond to work with you willingly as your foundation, not a good thing to teach him to fight against you... If your pup can't handle meeting people,, then don't set yourself up for failure... start at the beginning of what you want to accomplish train at a distance to sit heel stay next to you or down stay and watch people... get that first.... before you move closer for advance training slowly over time... You wont regret getting that strong bond foundation now...


This is such good advice.

This is something I've thought about a lot. My current big dog, who is the second biggest dog I've ever owned, is a lean 120 lb probable Giant Schnauzer/Great Pyrenees cross. Schnauzers are trainable and Pyrs are agreeable, and he is a lovely dog temperament-wise, but it's also an hard-headed, stubborn, independent, intelligent, bossy, guarding combination of breeds, and he fully lives up to that side of his genetic code, too. Between his size and his breed cross it was pretty clear to me from early on that I need the dog to WANT to work with me, because forcing him to do things is not a realistic option.


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## Zilla (May 11, 2013)

I can definitely see how using the e-collar to train for recall and not jumping would be kind of contradicting... I know this video addresses jumping but I haven't got to that part yet so I will have to see how he thinks it should be done. One more question though. So anyone who uses long lines for recall training etc. What kind of collar do you use on the end of it? Regular flat collar, martingale? Or something else? How about for the length? 30ft or 50ft?


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## notgaga (Oct 25, 2014)

Zilla said:


> I can definitely see how using the e-collar to train for recall and not jumping would be kind of contradicting... I know this video addresses jumping but I haven't got to that part yet so I will have to see how he thinks it should be done. One more question though. So anyone who uses long longs for recall training etc. What kind of collar do you use on the end of it? Regular flat collar, martingale? Or something else?


I use a harness (the freedom no-pull, but I'm debating getting a new one eventually) almost exclusively when walking and walking/training my dog. Regular leash or long line.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

MrsBoats said:


> Oh.....I beg to differ. You've never seen my 90 pound ground to air missile shoot straight up into the air from a solid sit and muzzle punch me in the face in the obedience show ring (thinking he was giving me celebratory kisses.) LOL


You know what I mean! A dog can't be sitting and jumping at the same time. Your dog is just breaking his sit.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Zilla said:


> I can definitely see how using the e-collar to train for recall and not jumping would be kind of contradicting... I know this video addresses jumping but I haven't got to that part yet so I will have to see how he thinks it should be done. One more question though. So anyone who uses long lines for recall training etc. What kind of collar do you use on the end of it? Regular flat collar, martingale? Or something else? How about for the length? 30ft or 50ft?


I would highly recommend a flexi for this, at least to start. With a flexi, the excess gets coiled up automatically so you're not tripping on it. You can also push the button and have tension in the leash immediately instead of fumbling around to tighten a leash with 15ft of slack in it.

If you have two hands free it doesn't really matter because you can take up the slack with one hand and hold with the other, but once you add the ecollar and need to have one hand on the remote, you will appreciate the flexi.

I don't regularly use long lines more than 30ft. I just find longer than that is tricky if you're in a wooded area and the dog starts tangling himself up.

As far as collar it depends. If I think the dog is going to lunge out to the end (like if we're going into an area with wildlife) I will use a harness. If we're just working around the house and I think he's lower key that day, I might put it on his flat collar. You just want to a avoid a dog hitting the end of a 30ft lead at full speed on a collar. I would also not use a front clip harness as a dog can flip himself over hitting the end of a line at full speed.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sitting is how Abhik and Arka jump.. they sit rock back full on their back feet , head tilt down and spring board right up to the top of my 6ft fencing ..... from a still position.. lots of strength in that body... but it always comes from a sit....


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I think a lot of good points have been made with this thread. People who are having trouble in a training mode will shop for other tools. E-collars are out there and owners will use them. 

I think they can be a useful tool for some situations. I will say that it can go wrong very badly, very quickly. It should be a thought out process and not the first thing an owner tries. I would be careful about using it around other dogs or people the first time. I would highly suggest getting professional help with the proper use of an e-collar. I would start out low setting and work up to a correct level. I am always leery of recommending an e-collar because I know of a couple who put it on a Doberman. The couple zapped the dog and the dog attacked the couple. The man was in the hospital for a couple of days. That dog messed that man up. His arms got the worst of it. The couple abused the tool and got attacked. The dog paid the price for their mistake. The dog was euthed. 

I have used this tool to enhance a recall. I did not use it for jumping up on people. Mowgli when I first got him loved to jump up on people. His other owners kids thought it was cool to have the big puppy jump up on them. He quickly learned that was no longer rewarded and he got more petting and attention by keeping his paws on the ground.


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