# All about Bull terrier breeds



## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

I thought it would be interesting to start a thread about the origins of all Bull terrier breeds so people can learn and share information on the American pit bull terrier,Staffordshire bull terrier,American Staffordshire terrier and English Bull terriers.

Its to give an insight into thier relation to each other,thier breed standards and anything else from thier history that people can share as there are many myths (not just the killer ones.lol) surrounding them and also for those interested to learn about them.

I'll kick off by posting the Staffordshire bull terrier and the English bull terrier (i dont want to post APBT pics as they are more often than not AST and vice versa so i'll leave that to the Americans to do)

Here are some photos/info on Staffordshire Bull terriers.

The Staffordshire Bull terrier (SBT)

















A good link to some older photos and history about the Staffordshire bull terrier
http://www.staffordmall.com/mallstandard.htm

Some history on the breed......
The Staffordshire Bull Terrier first came into existence in or around the seventeenth century. As bull baiting declined in popularity and dog fighting enjoyed a surge of interest, it became necessary to develop a dog which possessed a longer and more punishing head than the Bulldog and also to combine strength and agility. It is therefore believed that the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was derived from the fighting Bulldog of the day with some terrier blood introduced. This cross produced what was known as the Bull and Terrier or Pit Dog. These dogs were renowned for their courage and tenacity and despite their ferocity in the pit were excellent companions and good with children. In fact it was not unknown for an injured dog to be transported home in a pram with the baby! Although dog fighting and other barbaric pastimes of the day were patronised by the aristocracy - Lord Camelford reportedly owned a famous dog called 'Belcher'- fighting dogs were also owned by the poorest of families. The pit dog was a favourite with miners and steelworkers and was prevalent amongst the chainmakers of the " Black Country " where the dogs were not only fought for entertainment but provided a working man with valuable extra income when worked against badgers or as ratters. With the introduction of the Humane Act in 1835, baiting sports and dog fighting became unlawful and a group of men in the Staffordshire area endeavoured to preserve their breed by introducing them to the show world. After much discussion the Standard was written describing the dog's physical attributes and this dog was named the Staffordshire Bull Terrier to differentiate him from the English Bull Terrier. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier was officially registered by the Kennel Club in 1935 and the first club show for the breed took place in August 1935 at Cradley Heath in the West Midlands where 60 dogs and bitches were entered . The founder club was named The Staffordshire Bull Terrier Club and is affectionately known as 'The Parent Club'. There are now a total of 18 clubs in Great Britain and Northern Ireland ranging from the North of Scotland to the West of England. The breed received championship status in 1938 when CC's were awarded for the first time at the Birmingham National. The first two Champions of the breed were Ch. Gentleman Jim and Ch. Lady Eve. The popularity of the breed has now spread abroad with well established clubs in many countries including Australia, Eire, France, Germany, Holland, Spain and the USA, to name but a few. Over the years the Staffordshire Bull Terrier has become a successful show dog and a serious contender in the Terrier Group, where they frequently have the highest number of entries of all dogs in the Terrier Group and are occasional winners of Best in Show. More importantly the Stafford has become a popular pet retaining the attributes gained from generations of fighting dogs bred for courage, tenacity and most important: total reliability and affinity with people and in particular children 

The English Bull terrier (EBT)

















Some history on the breed......
Bull-baiting and dog fighting were long considered great entertainment by many Europeans, and patrons were constantly trying crosses to achieve the ultimate fighting dog. Around 1835, a cross between a bulldog and the old English terrier produced a particularly adept pit dog known as the "bull and terrier." A later cross to the Spanish pointer added needed size, and the result was a tenacious, strong, yet agile dog that came to dominate the pits. As interest in the exhibition of dogs grew in England, little attention was paid to these dogs so long associated with the lower echelons of society. With the abolition of dog fighting, however, some bull terrier patrons turned to this new venue to compete with their dogs, and they began to breed for appearance. Around 1860 James Hinks crossed the bull and terrier with the White English terrier and the Dalmatian, producing an all-white strain he called bull terriers. The new all-white strain immediately succeeded in the ring and captured the attention of the public; they became a fashionable companion for young gentlemen who wanted a good-looking masculine dog at their sides. The dogs gained the reputation for defending themselves, but not provoking a fight, and were thus dubbed "the white cavalier." The dogs gradually became more streamlined, and the bull terrier's distinctive head evolved. Around 1900, crosses with Staffordshire bull terriers reintroduced color into the breed. He was not well-accepted at first, but he finally gained equal status as a separate AKC variety in 1936. The white variety still continues as the more popular variety, but both colors have enjoyed great popularity as show dogs and pets. Their comical nature and expression wins them many friends, and they have proven to be very successful in movies and advertising.

Feel free to add/dispute any info and hopefully this thread will be a great insight and learning point for all interested in the breeds,i myself am always looking to learn more on the history and origins of all bull terrier breeds. 
(American APBT owners get posting your info and photos)


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I have mostly pics now with a little info. I will try to post specific info later. 

The Bull & Terriers 

There is much speculation about these breeds and a few theories on certain breeds within this group. One thing is clear that similarity in all can't be denied. Some still have a wider range of variety today while others have a standardized look most often seen. 

The history of the bull & terrier breeds are greatly intertwined, from the same origins, same roots being bred in different directions. To being crossed back and forth between breeds at one time or another. Prior to the AKC accepting the APBT for register these pit dogs were registered as Bull Terrier alongside the English Bull Terrier/bench dogs. 

These breeds are believed to come from bulldog and terrier crosses. Bulldogs were dogs which baited bulls and butchers dogs who held bulls. 
Bulldogs


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Terriers were dogs used to hunt vermin, control pest (keep them out of farmers grains). Ratting competitions also tested the best of a terriers (or bull and terriers) ratting ability. 
These are possible terriers thought to have been bred with the bulldogs to create the bull & terriers








English White Terrier and Black & Tan Terrier

The Blue Paul Terrier (need to search my pc for illustrations) was another breed thought to have been crossed with some bulldogs and in the ancestry of some APBTs. 

English White Terrier


















Some historic photos
American Pit Bull Terrier


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

APBT (cont)








CH Pilot









GR CH Richmond 8xw

King Paddy (won over EBT in show ring) Son of Delihant's Paddy 5xw whom he looks very much like and grandson of GR CH Richmond (his dams sire) pictured above. Has CH Pilot in the 5th pictured above


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Great pictures Spicy,i look forward to your input on this thread (the 1st picture looks a bit like those *old boston terriers* i asked you about.)

Are these drawings American?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Staffordshire Bull Terrier


























Sire of CH Pyscho pictured above


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Staffordshire Bull Terrier (cont)









American Staffordshire Terrier








Colby's Primo an APBT (ADBA/UKC registered) was one of the initial dogs registered with the AKC and used as the ideal for the standard 










SBT/EBT CH Stormer


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

APBT/EBT









AST









SBT moder (90s)








Heavy bred CH Psycho

his dam


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Im working on some APBT specific info... spicy when I post it you will add anything I miss?


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Gentleman Jim as referenced By "Mr Pooch"



Mr Pooch said:


> Great pictures Spicy,i look forward to your input on this thread (the 1st picture looks a bit like those *old boston terriers* i asked you about.)
> 
> Are these drawings American?


The 1st bulldog photo? Yeah I think they look similar also. 

I'm not sure if they are American. I think they might be European illustrations. No clue though.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Im working on some APBT specific info... spicy when I post it you will add anything I miss?


Yeah I can if there is anything to add.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Dont forget the AST Zim,im not too clued up on that breed.

Spicy,yeah the 1st photo,looks alot like them!
Brilliant photos,those SBT/EBT and APBT/EBT are formidable looking dogs!


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Dont forget the AST Zim,im not too clued up on that breed.
> 
> Spicy,yeah the 1st photo,looks alot like them!
> Brilliant photos,those SBT/EBT and APBT/EBT are formidable looking dogs!


The AST is an AKC registered APBT so they have the same origin. 

In 1935 the AKC after some trying accepted the APBT under the name Staffordshire Terrier and began registering them in 1936. In 1972 the name was changed to American Staffordshire Terrier. The AKC dogs came from the already existing APBTs who were dual registered for the foundation stock. The stud books were opened twice more to allow APBTs to be added to the stud book. 

There are many well known APBTs that can be seen behind the AST pedigrees. Some are Colby's Primo, GR CH Tudor's Black Jack (The sire of "Petey" who was also dual registered as with AKC), GR CH Tudor's Black Jack Jr

What do you think of this one, I think you've seen him before.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Its crazy how basically all of the bull terriers seem to have the same history story!

So the EBT was the 1st created Bull terrier,or is that wrong?? it does bare the most resemblence to the english white terrier,i also didnt know (untill i looked it up) that the colour brought into the EBT was from breeding SBT into them.

I could read and talk this subject forever.

ETA:Gr champion Richmond look a bit like an EBT.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I think the bull & terrier crosses were first  Then people standardized them into different breeds. They bred them for their ideal or put a label on them. Some became known as EBT, others SBT and others APBT and so on. I don't think specifically the EBT as a breed was the first. Some of the others were also referred to as Bull Terriers too.

EBT possibly had the most or more English White Terrier to begin with. The other pit dogs probably had other terriers breeds and more various bulldogs. As the EBT was standardized quick. Even without an actual standard it appears that there was more breeding them together (within their own developing breed) after the initial crossing to achieve what they wanted with them.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

Pooch that first Staffy pic, I LOVE IT!!! He is so handsome!
Nessa


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> I think the bull & terrier crosses were first


Haha! even i knew that Spice,i should have said "was it the 1st labelled bull terrier"

Thanks for all the info,keep it coming.

Ness,he is a beauty isnt he!



Spicy1_VV said:


>


Whos this pooch Spicy?,i do recall seeing this dog before,he has the bandogge look going on,great looking dog.

Some info on the Irish variation of SBT.....
http://www.molossermania.com/brd/b/b010/b010e/history.html

http://www.keetchs-irish-staffords....hat_is_an_Irish_Dog/what_is_an_irish_dog.html


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Yeah Ness that dog is interesting, hardly ever see a red nose SBT over here.

Mr Pooch Hehe I knew what you meant....just messing with ya
I don't think so, as in I don't think the EBT came first then the other came from the EBT. I think it was almost parallel in creation. Just breeders with different goals and such. It would be like if the Bullmastiff had results in a few different breeds with similar temperament and different physical build. Humans are great at manipulating phenotype. 

That is CH Clouse's Big Boy 

His dam Clouse's Fanny









Her grandsire Corvino's Shorty









Her other grandsire Corvino's Gimp 









I have dogs down from Clouse breeding
Do you remember this bitch I sent photo of in PM?


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## naoki (Jun 19, 2007)

Sorry for asking damn question:

What’s the best way to tell the difference between APBT and AM staff? Especially on some pictures? I know SBTs are smaller than those guys but if it was just on some pictures, it’s really hard to tell between them.

-n


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Well...where to begin?

Lets start with Pit Fighting itself



> CAJUN RULES
> This is a set of rules that was set out by G. A.(Gaboon) Trahan. Called Cajun rules. I know of one more set of rules called the same thing or very little different. But there is enough that if you ever match under these rules, make sure you and the other handler get with the referee before the match and get everything clear. I will point out the rules that I try to get clear at the end of these rules. Word for word by Gaboon Trahan in black ink. My understanding as I was taught in Old English. One rule in green ink that I amended because two cur dogs can’t produce a draw. Neither dog can produce a contest, what a shame!
> Rule 1
> Size of pit, optional; to be square with sides 2 feet high, scratch line 14 feet apart.
> ...


MORE COMING...


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

> Rule 10
> The dogs are placed in their corners of the pit, opposite corners, faces turned from each other and only the dog and their handlers inside the pit. Then the referee shall say, (Face your dogs) Each handler must always show his dog full head and shoulders between his legs. The referee says (Let’s go), but the handler must never push or shove their dogs and handlers shall not leave their corners until the dogs are together.
> Understanding that both front feet on the scratch line to support his own weight.
> RULE 11
> ...


Source: http://www.gamedogs.com/pitrules.htm


MORE COMING

Ok I think the best way to do this is 

look over these rules...

What qualities would a dog need to have to excell in this scenario?

I've got my take on it ready but I want to hear what others might say first..


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Yeah Ness that dog is interesting, hardly ever see a red nose SBT over here.
> 
> Mr Pooch Hehe I knew what you meant....
> I have dogs down from Clouse breeding
> Do you remember this bitch I sent photo of in PM?


I remember her,shes a real beauty and comes from very good lines.

Spicy there are loaaaaads of red noses here.
Ive been planning to do a project for a while,now ive got the new camera so im gona go ahead.

Im going to take pictures of all the bull terrier breeds around in my area and surrounding areas (my Dads estate is like SBT city.haha) and also pics of other bully breeds im going to try and make a calender in the end.
I know so many little hood rats with dogs (friends and family of people i know) that own a SBT or bully breed/or mix of some sort.

The newest craze around here is mixing Mastiffs with SBT,people never learn!! (the dogs are very good looking although i will never support the purpose mixing of breeds just to make a quick buck or have a *cool* looking pooch)

Bssically it will give you guys (especially spicy and zim) and insight into the differing looks of SBT around here,who knows you might even sense some old bloodlines in some because yesterday at the market i saw (what the owner must legally declare) a SBT that was so APBT looking it was a joke!,big red nosed guy in beautiful condition and didnt look mixed bred at all,so look out for pics here soon.

Heres one example taken on my camera phone,i had to ask the owner if i could snap a pic because she was such a beauty....(spicy i think i posted her before?) she doesnt look typical SBT,maybe an Irish SBT.



















naoki said:


> Sorry for asking damn question:
> 
> What’s the best way to tell the difference between APBT and AM staff? Especially on some pictures? I know SBTs are smaller than those guys but if it was just on some pictures, it’s really hard to tell between them.
> 
> -n


Naoki,facially they are all very similar but weight and height differ in the 3 breeds.




zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Source: http://www.gamedogs.com/pitrules.htm
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good post Zim,i'll get back with my best qualities.

ETA:the ban on APBT in the UK only took place in 1991 so many owners went underground with thier breed programmes,this is why im quite sure there are still American bloodlines here still,after all before 1991 people were importing APBT from the US to here,same way i see Tosa looking dogs too.(they are also banned).

I'll let you be the judge when i find some good examples.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Zim can you post the UKC rules?



naoki said:


> Sorry for asking damn question:
> 
> What’s the best way to tell the difference between APBT and AM staff? Especially on some pictures? I know SBTs are smaller than those guys but if it was just on some pictures, it’s really hard to tell between them.
> 
> -n


If they are AKC registered then they are considered an American Stafford Terrier. Thats a good way to tell, but you can take an AST and still register them with the UKC or ADBA (or others) as an APBT. So the dog could be registered as both. So I look at the pedigree too that way I can determine the dogs lineage. CH Bosco 4xw was a son of CH Clouse's Staber and dam was AST of the Tacoma line. Bosco's dam was owned by Frank Ferris who became owner of ADBA in 1951. 

SBT are smaller then some and bigger then others. This is also true of APBT and AST. So size wouldn't be a factor in and of itself. 

CH Psycho SBT pictured above was 44lbs pit weight of 40lbs

CH Pilot APBT pictured above was 36lbs pit weight of 27lbs

My APBT pictured above about 35lbs

The easiest way is really an experienced eye and even some can fool you. Generally AST have their own look. They have a distinct head shape, a little bit longer in body then the APBT. Many are also heavier set, they have a little more bulk to them. Some have a similar lean, streamline look as the APBT but still have the distinct head/body shape.


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## mostlymutts (Jan 10, 2009)

I have been wondering where to say this...

I *was* one of those idiots who couldn't tell a pittie from a fence post.

That is how I found DF. My dogs started throwing a fit one night at something in the pasture. I never saw it. I tried to put them to bed. No luck. They spent the night outside.

The next morning I go outside to discover the source of the unrest.
omgizapibble 
(Close enough?)

So here is this dog standing at the gate, gleefully ignoring the four dogs who are barking their fool heads off at him. I got out the gate and all he wanted was loved on. Okay. So we are good for that. What to do now?

I can't leave the dog running loose; I live on the intersection of two highways. So in the yard he comes. Probably not the smartest thing I have ever done, but he wanted to love on the other dogs as much as he wanted to love on me.

Next thing. I don't want to report him missing. He is scruffed up and missing a fang (this is not recent, his gum is healed). Yes, I know, accidents happen. It just made me suspicious.

I found you guys trying to figure out what he was, and whether or not I should actually need to be scared. Turns out, he looked most to me like a SBT. He had the sweetest dispostion. Loved my son, loved my dogs, did not notice the cats.

About the time I did decide to make some phone calls to see if anyone had reported the dog missing (if he was mine, I would want him back), my son found out who the owner was. The fellow had been out hunting, and the dog went out of the back of the truck. Not the smartest fellow, I know. From the last time they had eyeballed the dog, we figure he had traveled about five miles to get to my house. 

Long story, I know. I just really appreciate the effort you folks go to in providing all this fantastic information, and educating people like me.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

No problem mostly mutts,i got my 1st SBT nearly 9 years ago and im still learning each day.
DF has been a great place for me to learn everything dog related from breeds to social problems etc,bully breeds are a passion of mine though.

Thanks for posting your story,glad to hear it had a good ending.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I would if I could find the fecking thing my fecking idiot machine just flipped me the bird and ate some of my files!!!!!!


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## mostlymutts (Jan 10, 2009)

Ack!
As I saw another poster say, "[email protected]%&^&@jgdoirotusljv##$%*^#."


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Thats always fun. NOT. Sorry to hear that. I'm not typing them out that is for sure!

Now to add yet another direction. 

Here is a bulldog Spanish Alano or Alano Espanol

These are supposed to be "non terriers". It is a breed I'm very interested in, some day hope to be lucky and have a couple. It is speculated that these dogs, who were almost lost and extinct themselves, might have played a role in the APBT. These bulldogs of Spain may have been some of the APBTs ancestors. Bulldogs from Spain taken to England and surrounding countries where they were later some of the bulldogs mixed with the terriers. There is a similarity in structure, some temperament traits and behavior with this breed and the APBT. They are a true working bulldog still used to control cattle and hunt large game.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Here is a very old tapestry which depicts what looks very similar to many APBTs, likewise similar structure to the Spanish Alano.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Here is a very old tapestry which depicts what looks very similar to many APBTs, likewise similar structure to the Spanish Alano.


What beautiful dogs!!!!!


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


>


See now had you posted this pic and said it was an APBT i would not have blinked an eyelid.
The Spanish Alano is an awesome breed! other photos put me in mind of the Presa,the black and tan one resembles your APBT (the black and tan one you have)

Its very interesting you say they were brought to england and i bet its very likely they did go into the mix of many of the bull terriers.
Thanks for that spicy thats extremly imformative indeed!
I iz loving this thread!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

http://www.riospitbull.com/the_match.htm

BABAHAHA!!

for all they got some funky bad looking dogs they sure do have their history spot on..im peeved and refuse to quote...yall can click your own dizzydurn links. its got both sets..why did I simply not see that before?!?


ps. if you guys don't see me round for a bit its because I got fed up with this POS, covered it in peanut butter and fed it to Bolo. So there...im off to REWRITE all that other stuff I had. grrrrrrrrr..


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

I love this thread. 

Okay, I'm confused..

What is the difference between

American Staffordshire Terrior (Am Staff) vs Staffordshire Bull Terrior


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> I love this thread.
> 
> Okay, I'm confused..
> 
> ...


American Staffordshire Terrier came from AKC registering APBTs. 

Staffordshire Bull Terrier are the european dogs (heavily bred in england and ireland) and recognized by the KC for registration about the same time the AST was here by the AKC. The SBT is also AKC recognized, so therefore SBT are registered as such where APBT are registered by the name AST.

While many can look alike there are clear differences in the show standard. The working SBT and ISBT look different then your typical KC or AKC show dog. Although many of those are total tubs, they'd probably look more appealing in shape. Some look closer to English Bulldogs, sad really. 

The differences is lineage separation in part and generally physical characteristics (especially in show dogs).

Often times too I've noted that some AKC show SBT look like "mini me" AKC show AST with natural ears. 

AST


















SBT


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Here are some others I wanted to post that have resulted from breeding the different bull&terriers together.

APBT/SBT









APBT/AST


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

APBT/EBT









APBT "terrier type"









APBT more bulldog like









Zim that is a good link. Anything with GR CH Buck is good....hehe so lastly








GR CH Buck ROM


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Thanks Spicy...that makes more sense. I know you guys say this stuff over and over again...i'm sure it makes you a little testy  or not. It seems like one of those things you have to hear like a million times before it all sinks in...it's all so confusing I guess because the nomenclature is all so similar and they all come from the same place..can be registered in both...etc etc.



Spicy1_VV said:


> Here are some others I wanted to post that have resulted from breeding the different bull&terriers together.
> 
> APBT/SBT
> 
> ...



So when you say APBT/SBT or APBT/AST...

are these crosses of an APBT and a SBT ... and then a cross of an APBT/AST? is this what you mean by that?

can you help me in recognizing the different physical characteristics in these two dogs per say? so, if you were looking at these two dogs for the first time and trying to determine what type of breed....what would be the identifiers for someone with your knowledge base?


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> The AST is an AKC registered APBT so they have the same origin.
> 
> In 1935 the AKC after some trying accepted the APBT under the name Staffordshire Terrier and began registering them in 1936. In 1972 the name was changed to American Staffordshire Terrier. The AKC dogs came from the already existing APBTs who were dual registered for the foundation stock. The stud books were opened twice more to allow APBTs to be added to the stud book.


So, I'm trying to wrap my head around this...I need like a lineage tree picture or something to help me 

You are saying here that the AKC accepted the APBT...and they accepted only the dogs that were dual registered as an APBT (with UKC) and SBT (by AKC)...and this was in the 1936 time frame or 1972?. These dually registered APBT (SBT) were the foundation stock of the AKC registered dogs that we see today. the ones you can get 'papers' on. and twice since then, they opened the 'book' to allow additional APBT into the foundation stock for better breeding practices? what is the significance of this. Were these dually registered APBT (seems like those would be in the same 'line' as the original stock). 

Sorry...this is the first time I've made an attempt to learn all this stuff. I don't really know anything about the registration of dogs, the kennel clubs..etc. I feel lucky to have such a great knowledge base here to ask these questions.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

it kind of depends..

for me at least it isn't any one particular trait vs another...its the _overall_ impression one gets when viewing the dog.

APBT. the catch phrase is *medium* Nothing overly exaggerated either way. APBT were bred to strike a balance between strength and agile speed. as a working dog 


AST. this is a show specific animal according to my understanding. generally thicker and larger, generally more muscular and blocky.

SBT. depends on where the particular SBT is from.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Thanks Spicy...that makes more sense. I know you guys say this stuff over and over again...i'm sure it makes you a little testy  or not. It seems like one of those things you have to hear like a million times before it all sinks in...it's all so confusing I guess because the nomenclature is all so similar and they all come from the same place..can be registered in both...etc etc.


Its no problem. I don't mind clarifying, sometimes I'm just not so sure how to explain. They are essential of the same dogs split off into different types which became recognized as their own breeds. 



> So when you say APBT/SBT or APBT/AST...
> 
> are these crosses of an APBT and a SBT ... and then a cross of an APBT/AST? is this what you mean by that?
> 
> can you help me in recognizing the different physical characteristics in these two dogs per say? so, if you were looking at these two dogs for the first time and trying to determine what type of breed....what would be the identifiers for someone with your knowledge base?


Yes when it has / I mean it like saying a dog is a Collie/Lab.

The red nose female tightly bred and is triple bred on a SBT 3xs in the 3rd generation. She is a sister to a couple very nice males, these are extremely great little pull dogs. One of the brothers was actually crossed with the blood I use and produce alright. I will have to post some pics later. 

Of the AST/APBT
The 2nd is in inbred son of CH Blu Trouble (photo below) Blu Trouble's sire was AST bred (UKC CH) and his dam (2xw) was AST bred on top and APBT bred on bottom (Eli/Carver). I have seen several which breed these dogs back to Eli/Carver blood. I can tell this dog screams staff blood, due to structure, proportions and color. 










The 1st is the result of breeding Blu Trouble back to his dam.

The last has some AST in the bottom, dam is actually blue brindle. The sire is heavy bred Red Boy. I couldn't tell you by look that he has AST, I just know his pedigree. 

When I look at a dog if they are AKC then it is almost always blatently obvious. Some that still conform closer to the conformation of APBT are still not that hard to pick out although easier to fool some people. There are some rare ones which is it near impossible to tell even though they are AKC reg AST. AST is not as square, distinct head, most these days are heavier set, though not all are. 

Some that are reg as APBT but have some AST it is usually fairly evident. If it is small amount or the dog got the APBT traits then of course they don't have the AST phenotype so I can't tell by looking. Normally if they are blue that is a good indication since most (though not all) blues have AST somewhere in their pedigree. 

An APBT has a great diversity in looks, but do not have the traits that were bred into the AST. The AST has these consistently because they were bred for type, to a stricter standard so the traits were set in. An APBT can have a similar appearance sometimes or a certain physical trait commonly seen in AST, but they usually still look different. 

I'm going to do my best to get photos, I will combine some as there is a 4 image limit. I have posted many already if you want to review the others (if you haven't already). Some others will help better explain what I'm talking about.



Mac'N'Roe said:


> So, I'm trying to wrap my head around this...I need like a lineage tree picture or something to help me
> 
> You are saying here that the AKC accepted the APBT...and they accepted only the dogs that were dual registered as an APBT (with UKC) and SBT (by AKC)...and this was in the 1936 time frame or 1972?. These dually registered APBT (SBT) were the foundation stock of the AKC registered dogs that we see today. the ones you can get 'papers' on. and twice since then, they opened the 'book' to allow additional APBT into the foundation stock for better breeding practices? what is the significance of this. Were these dually registered APBT (seems like those would be in the same 'line' as the original stock).
> 
> Sorry...this is the first time I've made an attempt to learn all this stuff. I don't really know anything about the registration of dogs, the kennel clubs..etc. I feel lucky to have such a great knowledge base here to ask these questions.


I can make a tree if that will help.

No.......
In 1935 AKC accepted APBTs for register under the name Staffordshire Terrier. In 1972 they later change the name to American Staffordshire Terrier. Yes the stud books were opened a couple more times to allow APBTs for registration. I'm not sure I understand so if I get this wrong please clarify. The significants of? Opening the stud books? I would assume to increase genetic diversity. AKC does not often open stud books and is a closed registry and after initial foundation stock is registered that is usually it. They have strict guidelines on accepting non AKC dogs for register, normally you can't take an UKC register dog and register them with the AKC, when they are registering foundation stock then the books are open for that time. To register a non AKC dog with AKC is only allowed under certain circumstances for example if you import a dog for instance that is registered with an FCI registry, but APBTs couldn't be imported in from some other country so they made allowance a couple times for them to register, the last time was in the 70s. 

The AKC didn't accepted the Staffordshire Bull Terrier for register until 1974. They did not accept APBTs to be registered as SBT (at least not to my knowledge nor most the early AKC SBT I've seen they look like the KC SBTs). Since the KC had recognized the SBT decades before I'm sure some imports were accepted to register under the AKC along with dogs already here in the US. 

The Mini Bull Terrier wasn't accepted until early 90s I believe. The Bull Terrier (standard) was accepted long before, as I mentioned earlier prior to the AKC accepting APBT (as AST) they were registered as Bull Terriers. They were often called Sporting Bull Terrier and the actual Bull Terrier breed (which some call Hinks Bull Terrier) was a bench breed and not sporting breed (there are some exceptions of them still being used as pit dogs, but mostly they became a breed quickly). 
If you go back through the pictures you will see King Paddy an APBT that (along with other APBTs) showed against Hinks Bull Terriers in the Bull Terrier shows since they did not have their own recognition or standard, sometimes the sporting bull terriers (APBT) competed in the shows. This is really no different in other breeds. Such as Dutch and Belgian Shepherds competing alongside each other or the inter breeding of German and Belgians with Dutch or Belgian seen in German pedigrees. I find that the original GSDs were very similar to the Belgian Malinois in their looks, many look very different now. Back to Bull Terriers the SBT was used to created the colored Bull Terrier. There is now two standards for Bull Terrier, White and Colored. I think Mr Pooch mentioned this earlier.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> it kind of depends..
> 
> for me at least it isn't any one particular trait vs another...its the _overall_ impression one gets when viewing the dog.
> 
> ...


I can understand the way you see it but then that makes it hard to really distinguish as it'd be all a matter of ones opinion. Not that many don't have their own opinion on APBT vs AST or if they are the same or totally different breed. 

Some define APBT not by looks but by ability
Others by the conformation
Others by the pedigree
Others specific physical traits like size or color

Some define AST by conformation
Others by pedigree
Others specific physical traits like size or color

It means that different people could define one dog as a different breed. So there is no clear cut way if we only go on what they are bred for. 

I can't disagree with you because everyone sees a breed from their perspective and their ideal (like if someone ask me what is an APBT my answer will be different from another persons). Yet setting certain specifications could plague the questions of

Is medium size, balanced, working AKC dog an APBT even though they are registered as an AST by name and from generations of show breeding?

Is a bulky, stocky, large, blocky head game dog an AST even though by pedigree and registration it is an APBT and by pit dog rules it is an APBT?

I think that registration is the first place to start. If it is AKC registered then it is an AST (or SBT). Then pedigree. If it is registered as an APBT then go to the pedigree and see what bloodlines. Is it a true APBT or is it a AST or SBT that has been dual registered as an APBT. 

I agree in the general sense. AST were bred for conformation, only few had game dogs and that wasn't the overall goal of the AST. They started out with athletic APBTs, set a standard and bred to that for awhile then trend headed for larger and heavier set dogs. Yet still AST exist which are like the original AST. Then there are AST which are incredibly exaggerated and over done. 

APBTs were bred for gameness/pit fighting and other working ability. Medium is a good general description but they can larger dogs as some APBTs in history were. I don't feel they were bred for a specific look, as long as they got the job done was importance. The standard for the APBT does lend to a balanced, agile, athletic working type dog. This was however based on a few pit dogs who had great ability / were aces at the time in the opinion of the dogmen who set the standard. As with any dog truly bred for working form follows function. They will not be typy and might have a great variance in looks. A dog will be bred if it performance despite if it is pretty, balanced or ideal. I agree with this to the extent of structure. Sound structure should not be sacrificed. While a dog can work with a structure problem it is the dog who is hindered and the dog who will suffer later in life or be culled younger in life once they can't work anymore. I think the photos illustrate quite well the varying looks. 

It is considered that AST are show version, bred for looks and APBT are working version. I do agree with this but then I know there are AST who work and APBT who are show dogs and bred for looks. So how to look at that? It is just too broad of a statement even though I myself have said it before.

I'm not trying to disagree with your opinion. I understand defining an APBT (or AST) the way one sees it. At the same time I'm trying to shed light on the differences/similarities. Distinct ways to recognize them (hopefully), then decide on their own what they feel really defines a true AST or APBT.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


>


Wow,an interesting read to come back to!
It is confusing how the AST and APBT can be dual registered,but interesting at the same time.
I think i could tell the difference between the 2 but then again ive seen pictures of AST that look very APBT so i guess it is a matter of opinion how one defines thier looks.

Spicy its ironic that you've posted the APBT/AST above as ive got a few Irish SBT here that bare quite a striking resemblence to him.

























All the above come from an reputable Irish SBT breeder here in the UK (Spicy its where marys Vlad comes from,not actually sure if any of the above are his sire or dam)

Heres an extract from his site that clearly states the dogs are not *pit bull terriers* (i think he means APBT *rolleyes* ) but more what was once the bull and terrier breeds,yeah that really makes sense!
I completly understand why people have to create this distance because of the 1991 banning of APBT here,its too risky,especially with such long legged SBT that to me do look like the APBT.

Enouth warbling,heres the extract,some of which i think is BS(theres a link to the site on page 1 of this thread)............
THE IRISH STAFFORD ?

Being that we own Blue Irish Staffords for quite some time now & like your self’s, we all want to know where they came from. Why are they called Irish Staffords. We can only give you the history on where they came from and what dogs what.

Like Ch Psycho / Ch Stormer / The Flynn lines / Dublin red Lines / CH. Gentleman Jim / Kilwickie Lad / Ch Pal of Aveth /The Great Geronimo /Doc’s Gr Ch Duke.

And that has lead to more up to date Breeders like the Kaos Kennels / Farmers boys / East streets Northford’s / Scratch’s / ect ect /.

We cant tell you what has gone into the Irish Staffordshire lines of today. As Jo Bloggs down the road might be putting all sorts of mixed up dogs into the Irish lines, who knows other than the people that are doing it. If they are saying to you that they are of an old type Stafford, like a red nose, Blue nose, the American Stafford. Well then its definitely not an Irish Stafford is it. We haven’t got any thing against Pit-Bulls, Blue nose, Red nose, Am-Staffords ect ect.

Just Do Not Confuse The Irish Staffordshire with those types of dogs. We find the Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a wonderful outstanding breed of dog, with all the characteristics of what a Staffordshire Bull Terrier should be like, And very proud to own them.

The reason people think that they are Pit bulls is mainly there size, Just Slightly Bigger then the average Kennel Club Dog. But back in the day that was the size of a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. The kennel Club breed them down in size, mainly for showing.

They are really Bull & Terriers, again back in the day they was called PIT BULL TERRIERS because of what they were. They was Breed manly for game fighting in a PIT, like Bull fighting / Ratting / Badger fighting / ect ect so what is a Pit Bull then ???. Unfortunately its Just one of them names that go’s with the Staffordshire Bull Terrier.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Just some more UK SBT.....

Another dog from keetches blue motor...
















Believe it or not this guy is EBT/SBT (although he could pass for pure EBT)








American bulldog/SBT


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> I can understand the way you see it but then that makes it hard to really distinguish as it'd be all a matter of ones opinion. Not that many don't have their own opinion on APBT vs AST or if they are the same or totally different breed.
> 
> Some define APBT not by looks but by ability
> Others by the conformation
> ...



I realize my interpretation may not always be accurate but as far as her question...

She asked what physical traits....
so I answered with physical traits..

If she had asked what *defines* and APBT vs AST vs SBT she would have gotten a different answer. 

Im kind of a weirdly literal person..


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Wow,an interesting read to come back to!
> It is confusing how the AST and APBT can be dual registered,but interesting at the same time.
> I think i could tell the difference between the 2 but then again ive seen pictures of AST that look very APBT so i guess it is a matter of opinion how one defines thier looks.
> 
> ...


Very nice dogs. 2nd photo is striking. 

Oh you know imagine69's Ty? Is related to several of my dogs. I see that while there are still the leggy staffies left there are others who have bred APBT back in their lines or have a mostly APBT. Vlad is a very nice dog.



> Heres an extract from his site that clearly states the dogs are not *pit bull terriers* (i think he means APBT *rolleyes* ) but more what was once the bull and terrier breeds,yeah that really makes sense!
> I completly understand why people have to create this distance because of the 1991 banning of APBT here,its too risky,especially with such long legged SBT that to me do look like the APBT.


That is really a shame too. That people have to be so careful what they call their dog or how the dog looks might get them in trouble. If it looks too much like a "pit bull terrier" they could loose their dog. It is getting to be the same here with BSL. 



> Enouth warbling,heres the extract,some of which i think is BS(theres a link to the site on page 1 of this thread)............
> THE IRISH STAFFORD ?
> 
> Being that we own Blue Irish Staffords for quite some time now & like your self’s, we all want to know where they came from. Why are they called Irish Staffords. We can only give you the history on where they came from and what dogs what.
> ...


So same as what most SBT trace their pedigrees back to or at least many.



> And that has lead to more up to date Breeders like the Kaos Kennels / Farmers boys / East streets Northford’s / Scratch’s / ect ect /.


"up to date breeders" Um fighting kennels? Never heard something put like that. 



> We cant tell you what has gone into the Irish Staffordshire lines of today. As Jo Bloggs down the road might be putting all sorts of mixed up dogs into the Irish lines, who knows other than the people that are doing it. If they are saying to you that they are of an old type Stafford, like a red nose, Blue nose, the American Stafford. Well then its definitely not an Irish Stafford is it. We haven’t got any thing against Pit-Bulls, Blue nose, Red nose, Am-Staffords ect ect.
> 
> Just Do Not Confuse The Irish Staffordshire with those types of dogs. We find the Irish Staffordshire Bull Terrier is a wonderful outstanding breed of dog, with all the characteristics of what a Staffordshire Bull Terrier should be like, And very proud to own them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the read. It doesn't really make sense. Its true they down sized them (height mainly) and the dogs started to be bred as a trend to be a little heavy set in weight on the short frame. Other then that he says not pit bulls but in the last paragraph they were called pit bull terriers. Its says Pit Bull is just one of the names that goes with SBT. I agree there but then which is it. Are they Pit Bulls (but not APBT) or are they not a Pit Bull at all.

That 2nd lot of the mixed dogs is very cool. Thanks for the share.



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I realize my interpretation may not always be accurate but as far as her question...
> 
> She asked what physical traits....
> so I answered with physical traits..
> ...


I totally get it. No worries.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Spicy1_VV said:


> Very nice dogs. 2nd photo is striking.
> 
> Oh you know imagine69's Ty? Is related to several of my dogs.
> 
> Thanks for the read. It doesn't really make sense. Its true they down sized them (height mainly) and the dogs started to be bred as a trend to be a little heavy set in weight on the short frame. Other then that he says not pit bulls but in the last paragraph they were called pit bull terriers. Its says Pit Bull is just one of the names that goes with SBT. I agree there but then which is it. Are they Pit Bulls (but not APBT) or are they not a Pit Bull at all.


Well the world is very small!,Ty is an awesome dog,reminds me of blake (its a shame i cant trace his lineage) i bet imagine never thought she'd find Americans with dogs related to hers.

Spicy the extract i posted doesnt make sense to me either.
Its either one of 2 things..
1.He clearly knows his dogs contain a substantial ammount of APBT bloodlines in them and is trying his best to cover that fact up,which i understand
2.He really isnt clued up on the relation between the 2 breeds at all which would explain the use of the *term* pit bull where it clearly is meant to be APBT,if this scenario is right then he doesnt realise that just having SBT he essentially has pit bulls anyway .
(although it proves Zims earlier point of the term pit bull nowdays being used more exclusivly for APBT and over here the word alone can get your dog confiscated which is really sad,i carry Blakes vet registration everywhere i go just incase because of his "leggier look",it confirms him as SBT)

Personally i think the 1st scenario is correct,i cant see mary getting Vlad from a fool although he really needs to look at the way his site intro is written as it is misleading and full of paranoid influenced statements.

As for those other breeders pointed out (kaos kennels/farmers boy etc) they may well be breeding fighting dogs ive heard it still goes down over there,my mum family is from cork Ireland i'll have to get some info from my uncle.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Mr Pooch said:


> Well the world is very small!,Ty is an awesome dog,reminds me of blake (its a shame i cant trace his lineage) i bet imagine never thought she'd find Americans with dogs related to hers.


Now I need to dig up the pedigree. Think she thought perhaps Ty was more APBT by looks anyway, so I checked the pedigree. Some SBT and APBT. If I remember Bolio/Tombstone Boyles Carver also. 

It'd be so neat if you could find out on Blake. He sure is handsome. 



> Spicy the extract i posted doesnt make sense to me either.
> Its either one of 2 things..
> 1.He clearly knows his dogs contain a substantial ammount of APBT bloodlines in them and is trying his best to cover that fact up,which i understand
> 2.He really isnt clued up on the relation between the 2 breeds at all which would explain the use of the *term* pit bull where it clearly is meant to be APBT,if this scenario is right then he doesnt realise that just having SBT he essentially has pit bulls anyway .
> ...


I believe Pit Bull is short for APBT, like saying Lab or Golden or Dane. But it also covered the AST and SBT although "pit bull" isn't in the name. The AKC specifically didn't want "pit" or "bull" but if they had used the name APBT instead of AST there wouldn't be so much confusion. 

I'm going to check out his website more. Either way it is kind of misleading or makes him look foolish at least the way it was written. I do know that Vlad's grand sire is supposed to be CH Pyscho but I've not seen his entire pedigree, that is like all she has it to his grand parents or something and that he is registered by Reid. Reid owned several APBTs. 



> As for those other breeders pointed out (kaos kennels/farmers boy etc) they may well be breeding fighting dogs ive heard it still goes down over there,my mum family is from cork Ireland i'll have to get some info from my uncle.


I posted some pics of SBT few pages back, some of which are winners from a few of the kennels mentioned or bred by them. With a name like Scratch Kennels it'd make me wonder in the first place, although I wouldn't just assume they were doing anything wrong. One of their dogs in particular that is probably seen in a lot of peds is a 2xw called Hagler II, an inbred grandson of CH Psycho (aka CH Hagler). Hagler II's sire is a Farmer Boys dog. Farmer Boys dogs are actually the dogs in Ty's pedigree, she is basically from those dogs in the first few generations. She was bred on several Farmer Boys dogs that were more APBT then SBT but still had some of these game SBT in the pedigree.


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## AMERICAN BULLDOG (Aug 3, 2009)

Hi All

All i've seen on this page are Reid bulls or the great American pitbull terrier or the bull and terrier, Ed Reid is a well known pitbull breeder where i come from, Eire and the chap that mentioned that his dogs have farmers boys blood in em just says it all.
I was brought up round 'the Reid bulls or the great American pitbull terrier or the bull and terrier' on traveler sites in Ireland and its all the same dog, they're pits crossed through tightly control irish blood lines which are apbt lines which at the end of the day isnt irish or american its english, the bull and terrier was then taken to the USA after the wars and became the American pitbull terrier the staff was at the same time being born, the now defined lines are still only a half inch or so apart either way you look at it! beautiful dogs! 
End of the day i have never seen an Irish staff,a staf is a staff is a pit is a pit is a bull and terrier they were bred by the butchers and we've them to love for em only shame that yer country not mine dont allow you to have one either size she comes and for that i feel for ye  grand best o luck taya'a

James


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

AMERICAN BULLDOG said:


> Hi All
> 
> All i've seen on this page are Reid bulls or the great American pitbull terrier or the bull and terrier, Ed Reid is a well known pitbull breeder where i come from, Eire and the chap that mentioned that his dogs have farmers boys blood in em just says it all.
> I was brought up round 'the Reid bulls or the great American pitbull terrier or the bull and terrier' on traveler sites in Ireland and its all the same dog, they're pits crossed through tightly control irish blood lines which are apbt lines which at the end of the day isnt irish or american its english, the bull and terrier was then taken to the USA after the wars and became the American pitbull terrier the staff was at the same time being born, the now defined lines are still only a half inch or so apart either way you look at it! beautiful dogs!
> ...


James,
Our country allows them, though there are individual CITIES that have attempted to ban them (it's not working, only making things worse for the breeds involved).

Zim, Pooch and Spicy,
Great information on all the Bul Terrier breeds and GREAT pictures!!!! With folks like you on their side, the Bull Terrier breeds will do fine.


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