# Olde English Bulldogges and their breeding age



## naoki (Jun 19, 2007)

I was checking out one of Olde English Bulldogge breeder’s website yesterday. It said that they had two litters last month. Their male dog sired both of their female dogs. Since my wife and I are interested in the breed and also considering getting a female pup (to be a playmate/sister for Lennox) so I sent an e-mail to the breeder and asked him few questions.
Then, I found out that those parents dogs are real young. The sire is only 14 months and both dams are 17 months and 2 years old. I know every breed is different and they mature sexually differently. Although I’ve been researching the breed a little bit recently but I’m not sure breeding such young dogs is common practice of this breed. Don’t you think it’s a bit too young to breed regardless of the breed? 

-n


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## Shaggydog (Mar 4, 2009)

My brother has one,but I'm not sure about their breeding age.It seems young in my opinion knowing a little bit about the problems they have.It seems that the females must be artificialy simulated because they can't produce any other way,at least I'm told.Then they must have a cecesieriun(sp?)because they can't a natural birth.They're nice looking dogs and all but it seems that they are a very high maintence breed.


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## naoki (Jun 19, 2007)

Shaggydog said:


> My brother has one,but I'm not sure about their breeding age.It seems young in my opinion knowing a little bit about the problems they have.It seems that the females must be artificialy simulated because they can't produce any other way,at least I'm told.Then they must have a cecesieriun(sp?)because they can't a natural birth.They're nice looking dogs and all but it seems that they are a very high maintence breed.


I think you are thinking about English Bulldogs (AKC EBs, as some poople might say). Olde English Bulldogges are not thsoe AKC EBs. Thanks for your opinion though.

-n


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## Shaggydog (Mar 4, 2009)

naoki said:


> I think you are thinking about English Bulldogs (AKC EBs, as some poople might say). Olde English Bulldogges are not thsoe AKC EBs. Thanks for your opinion though.
> 
> -n


I always thought they were one and the same. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

seems too young to me, but then again I'm not a breeder so I don't really know
Kechara's Sire and Dam were 1 year old and 2 years old (respectively)
and Hawkeye's Sire and Dam were 3 years old and 5 years old (respectively)
(I don't remember Jack's)


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## naoki (Jun 19, 2007)

Keechak said:


> seems too young to me, but then again I'm not a breeder so I don't really know
> Kechara's Sire and Dam were 1 year old and 2 years old (respectively)
> and Hawkeye's Sire and Dam were 3 years old and 5 years old (respectively)
> (I don't remember Jack's)


I know smaller breeds mature faster than bigger breeds but I just feel like anything younger than 18 months of age seems to be bit too young to breed.


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

Yeah, I agree. It seems young. Although I don't and never will breed dogs. I thought the average age of breeding is between 2 and 5 for bullies.


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## Xie (Feb 5, 2009)

It's not a good idea to breed dogs under two years old no matter when they are sexually mature.

The OFA testing cannot be certified if the dog is under 2, so by breeding at that age there is no way those dogs were tested. If they are breeding without having their dogs tested then they are bad breeders, end of story.


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

Xie said:


> It's not a good idea to breed dogs under two years old no matter when they are sexually mature.
> 
> The OFA testing cannot be certified if the dog is under 2, so by breeding at that age there is no way those dogs were tested. If they are breeding without having their dogs tested then they are bad breeders, end of story.


In other words... walk far and fast away from this breeder. You want a sound, solid bulldog. Even Olde English Bullies have many of the inherited problems that EB's present with. Be careful.


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## naoki (Jun 19, 2007)

Xie said:


> It's not a good idea to breed dogs under two years old no matter when they are sexually mature.
> 
> The OFA testing cannot be certified if the dog is under 2, so by breeding at that age there is no way those dogs were tested. If they are breeding without having their dogs tested then they are bad breeders, end of story.


That's what I thought.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I think there MAY be toy dogs who are mature at 18 months, and I wouldn't necessarily ding someone breeding say, chihuahuas for breeding a dog or bitch at that age if the individual dog is mature, since HD is not one of the things tested for in the breed. HOWEVER, OEBs aren't toys.  2 years, minimum- especially with bulldog hips!


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## Xie (Feb 5, 2009)

I still would say never breed a bitch or dog before 2. The reason being that there are more health issues than just HD that can show up. Of course some will show up even later than 2 but it's a good idea to give it at least that long before you start breeding. With a chihuahua for example you want to watch for heart defects, luxating patellas, and OCD among others.

Now, of course you can't wait until the dog has lived a completely long and healthy life and then chose to breed, it's a bit to late at that point heh. Still, you can give as long as possible before breeding to give any defects that might show up a better chance to do so. With a long-lived breed like the chihuahua you can really give even more time (say 3 or 4) before breeding to see what might be lurking. This is also where really knowing the pedigree comes in handy because it does give you a chance to see if any close relatives developed severe issues at an older age.

This is also why I find breeding horses easier, lol. My girl *might* have one foal in the next year or two (she's going on 5 this year and has passed her breeding inspections) but the rest will wait until after her show career is done and she's proven herself 100%. If she does one foal a year starting at 15 that still gives her a good 4 or 5 years to foal out. It also shows that she will have already competed successfully for 12 full years. If she doesn't show well then she'll just retire without having any babies. So much simpler when you can outcross and wait. It's also why I don't think I'd ever be able to breed dogs, I'm spoiled, lol.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Xie said:


> It's not a good idea to breed dogs under two years old no matter when they are sexually mature.
> 
> The OFA testing cannot be certified if the dog is under 2, so by breeding at that age there is no way those dogs were tested. If they are breeding without having their dogs tested then they are bad breeders, end of story.


It depends on what breed of dog you have. Some breeds don't do OFA, or OFA isn't 'required'. Don't label breeders of breeds who normally don't OFA as "bad breeders".

Depending on the breed, and what health clearances are required before breeding, and the maturity of dog or bitch, there's nothing wrong with breeding younger than two. 18 months old is as young as I'd go with a bitch, though. But I see nothing wrong with using a young male. I like to have my bitches proven by age 4 at the latest, so I won't wait years to breed a bitch.


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## Xie (Feb 5, 2009)

Read what I posted above about there being a lot more than just hips to test and why I believe regardless of breed breeders should wait until age 2 or later.

You don't have to agree but nothing will change my mind that no dog should be bred before 2.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

OFA certs CANNOT be done before two years old, though you can get prelims done at (I think) 18 months. OEB are very prone t the same problems with HD, ED and other joint problems you find in ANY large breed. 

In other words, if they aren't a minimum of TWO YEARS OLD they SHOULD NOT be bred, I'd even go so far as saying that's regardless of breed. 



> It depends on what breed of dog you have. Some breeds don't do OFA, or OFA isn't 'required'. Don't label breeders of breeds who normally don't OFA as "bad breeders".


I strongly disagree, there are OFA certs for EVERY breed nad quite afew mixes (aka hybrids) OFA is more than just hips, it's Patellas, heart, and CERF for eyes (ALL BREEDS) which can be cross registered with OFA for a 'Gold certificate". I would NOT by=uy a dog from a breeder that didn't have the reccomended tests registered via OFA other than possibly PENNHIP


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Yes, but you can do patellas, elbows, and I believe thyroid at one year.  

I'm not saying it's always the case that you should- in fact, I think it's going to be the exception, not the rule- but I also think there CAN be individual reasons for doing it.



cshellenberger said:


> OFA certs CANNOT be done before two years old, though you can get prelims done at (I think) 18 months. OEB are very prone t the same problems with HD, ED and other joint problems you find in ANY large breed.
> 
> In other words, if they aren't a minimum of TWO YEARS OLD they SHOULD NOT be bred, I'd even go so far as saying that's regardless of breed.
> 
> ...


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

I meant OFA for hips. There are breeds out there who don't, or rarely do hips. It does happen, and that doesn't mean that the people in the breed are wrong. It would be easier if all breeds had a CHIC.

Alot of people don't register with CERF, either, but they still do the eye checks.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Dogstar said:


> Yes, but you can do patellas, elbows, and I believe thyroid at one year.
> 
> I'm not saying it's always the case that you should- in fact, I think it's going to be the exception, not the rule- but I also think there CAN be individual reasons for doing it.





txcollies said:


> I meant OFA for hips. There are breeds out there who don't, or rarely do hips. It does happen, and that doesn't mean that the people in the breed are wrong. It would be easier if all breeds had a CHIC.
> 
> Alot of people don't register with CERF, either, but they still do the eye checks.


 
Ok, On the first paragraph, I' was talking about OEB and LARGE/Giant breeds 90% of large breeds NEED Hips, nearly all have HD. In fact, the only exception I can think of is (possibly) Greyhounds. EVERY bully breed needs Hips tested either OFA or PENNHIP, even the smaller bullies have some degreee of HD.

Small/med breeds may not have HD (with a couple of exceptions) but they STILL need testing for other joint, heart, eye and thyroid problems, which are listable on the OFA site withthe certs for joint problems.

If a breeder is doing them and doesn't register the results, cool, as long as they are willing to share the results with the buyer. Yes, CHIC is also a great result registry, I was tired last night, so I didn't think about it.

Now, I need to go get my coffe and wake up...


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## naoki (Jun 19, 2007)

Thanks for your opinion, everyone. 

OEBs are supposed to be healthier (as far as genetic problem was concerned) than EBs and I don't consider them as a large breed (I think they are mid sized dogs) but I still think that breeding them at that young age is not really a right thing. 

-n


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

naoki said:


> Thanks for your opinion, everyone.
> 
> OEBs are supposed to be healthier (as far as genetic problem was concerned) than EBs and I don't consider them as a large breed (I think they are mid sized dogs) but I still think that breeding them at that young age is not really a right thing.
> 
> -n


The thing is, a breed is only as healthy as they're checked for problems.  Especially with something like HD where a significant portion of affected dogs are asymptomatic, health testing is just a given. (For example, in the spitz, luxating patellas is a big one. Currently, there does not seem to be much incidence at all, but if people stop checking, it could get bad very quickly.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

naoki said:


> Thanks for your opinion, everyone.
> 
> OEBs are supposed to be healthier (as far as genetic problem was concerned) than EBs and I don't consider them as a large breed (I think they are mid sized dogs) but I still think that breeding them at that young age is not really a right thing.
> 
> -n


ALL bully breeds are prone to multiple joint problems INCLUDING HD, ALL dogs over 50lbs are considered 'large' breed, they aren't giants (dogs over 100 lbs) as American Bulldogs are, but they are large breeds.

The biggest helath differences in EB and OEB is the slightly longer snout and less incidence of cleft palette as well as a lower incidence of ED and luxating patella though it should still be check as it DOES occur regularly enough to be tested for. They both still have a HIGH incedence of heart and eye problems (cherry eye, entropian and extropian) due to scull structure and loose skin, as do all Mollossor/Bully breeds.


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