# Wolfdogs



## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Wow, ever since I was really young Ive had a thing for wolves, just something about them but its been awhile since Ive thought any thing of them. I was on dogbreed info .com and came across this. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/czechoslovakianwolfdog.htm
Picture took my breath away, and makes me want one, but I know its unrealistic to even think about, especially being in Florida...but I just wanted to see some pics of your guys Wolfdogs or Wolfy dogs like huskies and malumutes etc and was also wondering about wolfy breeds like huskies etc are any a good idea with a average owner and good obdeince training or are these breeds for the experienced. Thanks


Any info on Wolfdogs, and gsd including pics, articles, and personal info are appreciated


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

As wolfdogs are out of the question for me for the next 10 or so years at least, I have developed a strong infatuation with Tamaskans. Tamaskans are essentially 100% dog bred to look like a wolf (GSD, Husky, Malamute, and something else I think was thrown in). They have a good working ability (sledding, agility, obedience) and are biddable without the shyness that Czechs or Saarloos Wolfhounds have due to their recent wolf ancestry. Granted, they are a relatively newer breed and not common in the U.S. So, I doubt this will happen for me. Here is a website for them though. 

http://www.tamaskan-dog.com/index2.htm


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## ADalla (Oct 1, 2011)

Wolfdogs super irk me. I think it's irresponsible to keep a wild animal in your home. You're imposing unrealistic expectations on that animal, and on yourself for that matter. Even partly domesticated animals retain alot of instincts in conflict with a harmonious home environment. In the best case scenario you'd have to be on guard all the time, in the worst case scenario you put yourself, your family, and sometimes even the public at risk if the animal isn't properly contained or managed. That's just my two cents 

On the other hand I can completely understand the admiration for the beauty and raw wild nature of the wolf. They're truly majestic animals and it's actually one of the reasons I disagree with wolfdogs and wolf crosses. I wouldn't want them to be made into or expect to be anything less than they truly are, it does them an injustice. And the reality is that they require a level of dedication almost impossible to provide by the average pet owner. 

Even with breeds like Siberian Huskies and Alaskan Malamutes, breeders and rescues often caution they aren't for the first time owner. Considering how many Huskies are in rescues and shelters it speaks to the nature of how they aren't compatible with everyone's lifestyle. Take that and multiply it by one bazillion for a wolfdog.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Nil those dogs are amazing, and Adalla I see what your saying and sometimes I think were selfish on keeping certain animals but to tell you the truth I have no info on wolfdogs and cant say if I agree or disagree with them as pets. I hope Neokmi? Chimes in here I think thats the expert on this forum. I dont know much about huskies malumutes or any of the wolf type dogs either or their traits...


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

ADalla said:


> I think it's irresponsible to keep a wild animal in your home.


I would like to make clear, I would never condone breeding wolfdogs by buying a puppy I paid money for from a breeder. I would be willing to take in wolfdogs that are in rescue, and I think that is what is more "acceptable" when owning a wolf hybrid. However, breeds like the Czech and Saarloos are, in my opinion, beautiful animals but not worth advocating. This is an animal that is neither wild nor tame. There may be some out there that are very biddable and good dogs, but the risks of owning one outweigh the benefits.


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## The_Monstors (Oct 1, 2010)

If youre curious, then check out this thread. There was a few others about their requirements and most of the owners are pretty hardcore about their discipline and socialization and exercise. They also have some serious wolf proof kennel runs built and bolt into their backyard. 
http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/100914-new-wolfdog-owner-series.html

As for wolfy type breeds- they aren't a beginner breed usually. Huskies and Malamutes were bred to be working dogs so they need a good disciplinarian but also someone who will exercise their body and mind. Basically, they need a "job". I have a few Husky friends when I did agility, tracking, snow sports, etc. as they do well in that type of stuff. Very fun dogs, but they are pretty hyper so I could never own one, but I've always admired them in classes. You've mentioned your exercise regime and want for a couch potato breeds...these are far from it. I know you like the looks, but I just hope you know how different they are from what you said you wanted/need. They would be a significant change of commitment if you are considering them and not just admiring them.


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

Wolfdogs are another creature altogether from a dog. I am by no means an expert or that knowledgeable about them but I do know they are harder to train, have Winter Wolf Syndrome, and hard to contain (require special enclosures).

Siberians I do know about - (some of this will generalize over to Mals but they have differnt personality and are bigger than Sibes)
- The only "wolfy" characteristic is their appearance lends itself to being similar to a wolf. The similarities stop there. 
- They shed copious amounts of fur (if any other dog shed this much it would be bald), they blow there coats a few times a year (youtube shedding huskies)
- They are high energy without a very good off switch, they require plenty of exercise (the only time mine is close to being a couch potato is if she has crawled into my lap - she isn't sitting still but she is on the couch)
- They talk about everything (think of all the videos of them saying "I love you") 
-They don't eat as much as a dog of equal size but different breed (this was purposely developed in their foundation stock) 
- They pull - it is not easy to teach loose leash walking. 
- They are smart but have a stubborn streak that manifests itself as a "If I don't see a benefit for me I'm not doing it" - they don't do things to please you - they do things for the end result 
- They have a huge prey drive - anything smaller than about 10-15 pounds is fair game for Misty to chase 
- They can seldom be left off leash if ever. Mine is never, ever let off leash outside of an enclosed area. She enjoys running too much and running for her is self rewarding so it has much more of a draw than me saying "come."
- If they get bored (which is easily since they are intelligent and high energy) they tend to destroy things. I've seen videos of whole couches destuffed. Mine just tends to shred smaller objects if she gets bored.
- They are a handful. Misty is a joy but not an easy dog to own. They do not make good first dogs or good dogs for first/second or even third time owners. They require serious commitment as you cannot just let them out to potty and then back in again.

And finally - You asked for pics so here you go (I love sharing pics of my dogs):


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Nil said:


> I would like to make clear, I would never condone breeding wolfdogs by buying a puppy I paid money for from a breeder. I would be willing to take in wolfdogs that are in rescue, and I think that is what is more "acceptable" when owning a wolf hybrid. However, breeds like the Czech and Saarloos are, in my opinion, beautiful animals but not worth advocating. This is an animal that is neither wild nor tame. There may be some out there that are very biddable and good dogs, but the risks of owning one outweigh the benefits.


If you've done research in both Saarloos and Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, you'd know they are very much _dogs_. To call them hybrids as they are now, would just be plain wrong. To say that they are 'neither wild nor tame' is absolutely untrue. I don't know what comes into your mind when you think of a Saarloos Wolfdog, but they're not a wolf x shepherd/husky/malamute cross, like American wolfdogs tend to be. 
I'm especially knowledgeable in the Saarloos Wolfhond, a native Dutch breed. According to my info, the Czech is similar to the Saarloos, though they have a vastly different personality. At least, that's what Leendert Saarloos' (Saarloos wolfhond breed founder) daughter told me last week. Yes, I had the honor of visiting her. (It was so awesome!) 

Anyhow, the image of breeds like the Czech and Saarloos being like any other wolfhybrid is false. They are actual dog breeds for a reason: they make very good, loyal pets--for those who can appreciate their unique qualities. But then, that's true for all breeds of dogs. It was essentially what Leendert Saarloos intended by creating his breed. It wasn't like he crossed a wolf and a dog because he thought it would look pretty, or for a quick buck, or simply on a whim. He was disappointed with the direction dog breeds were going (even then, back in the 1930s) and he wanted to create a healtier dog with better temperament. Unfortunately this failed. Although Saarloos Wolfdogs were used as seeing eyes for the blind in the beginning, as everyday life became busier and noisier, it became apparent that Saarlozen weren't suited for the job. What Leendert had succeeded at however, was creating a dog breed with a natural look and natural temperament, which bonds very strongly with its family and ideally lacks aggression (flight > fight). 

According to my info, the Czech was also created with clear intent; to create a working dog with better temperament. The main difference with the Saarloos is that Czech _can _be used as a working dog in the hands of a capable handler who respects the animal's temperament, and accepts that the dog is different from other working dogs like the commonly used shepherds. The will to please is also much more present than it is with the Saarloos, who is everything but a working dog. 

Anyhow, I guess the points I'm trying to make is that: 
1) the Saarloos and Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs aren't random crosses with wolves. There are only two female wolves used for the Saarloos, the first was Fleur who was used in +/- 1925 and the second was Fleur II who was used in 1963. Ever since then, no wolves were used in the breeding program. 
2) there is no more risk to owning a Czech or Saarloos than there is to owning a GSD, Labrador, Malamute or any other dog breed. 

And as for the 'they're beautiful animals' part: Totally agreed.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

Avie said:


> If you've done research in both Saarloos and Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, you'd know they are very much _dogs_. To call them hybrids as they are now, would just be plain wrong. To say that they are 'neither wild nor tame' is absolutely untrue. I don't know what comes into your mind when you think of a Saarloos Wolfdog, but they're not a wolf x shepherd/husky/malamute cross, like American wolfdogs tend to be.


Unfortunately, I do not have the same opportunities to see many Saarloos or Czechs where I live. My knowledge comes from, more or less, what I have read about them. In many of the places I looked (this was a while back though) I came across a general type of idea that yes, they attempted to create an animal that had the looks of a wolf with the attitude of a dog. What I gathered from what I had read was that they did indeed create an animal that that both tendencies but some of these dogs were shy and didn't have a lot of the same biddability as dogs. Perhaps this was just in certain lines or maybe a fluke or maybe downright wrong, I don't know. 

If this was wrong, then I apologize. I admit I don't have a great amount of experience with either breed due to their rarity. What I was trying to convey in my original post was more of a general warning that yes, these are dogs, however they do have much more common wolf ancestry in their lineage than say a GSD. 

Although, I am curious. In talking with much more knowledgeable people than myself about Siberian Huskies, they have a little saying that goes Siberian Huskies and other nordic breeds "wear their domestication loosely". Do you think this phrase is something that can be applied to Saarloos and Czechs as well?


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> In the best case scenario you'd have to be on guard all the time,


Absolutely FALSE. This can be the case with SOME wolfdogs but definitely not ALL or even MOST. Usually you'd only see this with an adult rescue from a bad or unknown situation, really. I certainly am not "on guard" all the time when interacting with my wolfdogs.

About Czech and Sarloos wolfdogs - agreed 100% with Avie, they are DOGS, very far removed from their wolf ancestry. They are not at all like "American wolfdogs" which are various crosses of wolf, Shepherd, husky, malamute and other dog breeds in varying concentrations.

And Charis, not all wolfdogs will display seasonal hormonal changes (i.e, "winter wolf syndrome"). It's certainly not across the board and certainly not an inevitability.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Nil said:


> Unfortunately, I do not have the same opportunities to see many Saarloos or Czechs where I live. My knowledge comes from, more or less, what I have read about them. In many of the places I looked (this was a while back though) I came across a general type of idea that yes, they attempted to create an animal that had the looks of a wolf with the attitude of a dog. What I gathered from what I had read was that they did indeed create an animal that that both tendencies but some of these dogs were shy and didn't have a lot of the same biddability as dogs. Perhaps this was just in certain lines or maybe a fluke or maybe downright wrong, I don't know.
> 
> If this was wrong, then I apologize. I admit I don't have a great amount of experience with either breed due to their rarity. What I was trying to convey in my original post was more of a general warning that yes, these are dogs, however they do have much more common wolf ancestry in their lineage than say a GSD.
> 
> Although, I am curious. In talking with much more knowledgeable people than myself about Siberian Huskies, they have a little saying that goes Siberian Huskies and other nordic breeds "wear their domestication loosely". Do you think this phrase is something that can be applied to Saarloos and Czechs as well?


Wearing their domestication loosely... Well, for the Saarloos I think it would apply more than for the Czech. The Saarloos can be an excellent companion, but generally it won't do well in a city. It really does best with owners that are around most of the time, they crave companionship, whether human or dog, preferably both. They aren't the most biddable type of dogs, though they're very loyal and want to be with you and only you (or your family). They're wary of strangers. I had read about it but you only realize just what exactly that means in real life when you've experienced it first hand. When I went to kennel Van de Kilstroom, I was greeted with a loud and impressive warning display of the Saarlozen that wandered freely on the terrain. But as soon as ms. Saarloos took me in, they disappeared to the other end of the area and kept watching us with their yellow eyes, completely distrustful. Any sudden move made them stand up, totally alert. They wouldn't come near us. One of the dogs came as close as about two meters, but that was only because ms. Saarloos called her, so she came (although almost begrudgingly, as if she were thinking: "fine, but only because I trust you and you make me feel safe.") 

I've never met any dog that behaved like these Saarloos Wolfdogs did. They're so vastly different. Miss Saarloos told me that this is common in the breed. You won't find a happy-go-lucky Saarloos easily. She said that to strangers, they must look like these antisocial animals, but to her they were dreams. I could see it by the way the dogs behaved when she went up to them. Their entire body language just went from tense and alert to happy and at ease when they had her by their side. 

I think I'm rambling, sorry. Wearing their domestication loosely... I guess I don't fully get what you mean by this. Does it have something to do with their behavior? 

The wolf ancestry isn't very recent with the Saarloos. Like I said, the last time a wolf was introduced to the gene pool was almost 50 years ago. The only things remaining from it is the admittedly shy/distrustful attitude towards strangers and the wolf-like look to them. The funny thing is, originally Leendert Saarloos didn't specifically aim for a dog that looked like a wolf. He just wanted to create a dog with the benefits of the health and character of the wolf. Unfortunately the offspring didn't turn out to be 'healthier' than dogs, they were just as fathomable to disease as any other dog breed. There were not much benefits of character either, as wolves generally aren't brave animals, instead they're rather frightful and apprehensive creatures, which was reflected in the early Saarlozen. Leendert tried his best to erase that shy tendency in his breed and succeeded initially. But after his death, the breed club wanted to focus on a more wolfy look, putting looks before health & character, leading to the return of shyness but also to the Saarloos Wolfhond look we know today. Pretty... but with consequences. Fortunately, breeders nowadays are breeding for better temperament en health. Whether they'll succeed, only time will tell. After all, the Saarloos Wolfhond is a breed with a rather low number of animals and a very small gene pool.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Thankyou all for the input so far, this is one of those topics where I know nothing about and I like hearing all the diff opinions just keep it...warm. Wow lot of stuff on here, Charis I appreciate the pics of your husky beautiful dog and the info on them, I know they arent for me right now. Monstors thanks for pointing me to that post, lot of info on there. Avie and Nil thanks for the info and yes Avie I think they are amazing looking dogs. 
Lastly Thanks Nekomi for clearing some things up and everybody post more as I would like to learn more about these dogs. Its may sound crazy but someone say what the ideal situation would be for a czech or salvoos? Wolfdog....may be a far reach but hearing they are very very aloof, but very trusting of their owner only makes me like them more. 
Very cool on getting to meet his daugter btw. 
Would you compare a czech or salvoos to a GSD? Thats a breed I keep coming back to looking for another dog, just wondering, Thanks Zach


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

nekomi said:


> And Charis, not all wolfdogs will display seasonal hormonal changes (i.e, "winter wolf syndrome"). It's certainly not across the board and certainly not an inevitability.


I meant to phrase that in more of a "wolfdogs have this (winter wolf syndrome) in their group (breed if you will) while siberians do not." kind of way. In referring to it as if it were the MDRI in aussies - not a guarantee an individual animal will have it but in "breed" so to speak and not in other breeds. Missed that one...


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ZachAttackandWilbur said:


> Thankyou all for the input so far, this is one of those topics where I know nothing about and I like hearing all the diff opinions just keep it...warm. Wow lot of stuff on here, Charis I appreciate the pics of your husky beautiful dog and the info on them, I know they arent for me right now. Monstors thanks for pointing me to that post, lot of info on there. Avie and Nil thanks for the info and yes Avie I think they are amazing looking dogs.
> Lastly Thanks Nekomi for clearing some things up and everybody post more as I would like to learn more about these dogs. Its may sound crazy but someone say what the ideal situation would be for a czech or salvoos? Wolfdog....may be a far reach but hearing they are very very aloof, but very trusting of their owner only makes me like them more.
> Very cool on getting to meet his daugter btw.
> Would you compare a czech or salvoos to a GSD? Thats a breed I keep coming back to looking for another dog, just wondering, Thanks Zach


Both the Czech and Saarloos have been derived from wolf x GSD crosses. The only changes are the wolves used; with the Saarloos, the European wolf was used, with the Czech it was the Carpathian wolf. It is said that the Czech was bred to have more GSD characteristics in a wolf-like body, while the Saarloos retains more wolf-like qualities in its behavior and far less GSD characteristics. When compared with the GSD, both breeds are vastly different. The Czech still has somewhat of a will to please, but the Saarloos does not. Czech can be used as working dogs, Saarlozen are companions only. The GSD is a very versatile dog, I think the Czech would come closer to 'versatile' than the Saarloos. The GSD may be wary of strangers, but as far as I'm aware they should never be anything short of shy. A GSD would certainly be 'easier' to handle than either the Czech or Saarloos, and if you want a dog that might defend your property you wouldn't do well with a Saarloos, whereas Czech tend to be more prone to protect and defend, the breed has been used for the army as it has far more backbone than the Saarloos, but if you want an easier and totally reliable dog, a GSD would be good. Both the Czech and Saarloos are often only recommended for experienced dog owners, but someone new to owning dogs may do fine too. It all depends on the amount of time and effort you're willing to put in the dog. But keep in mind that a wolfdog breeder is more likely to give a puppy to someone who has experience and may have another (couple of) dog(s) than to a newbie. 

Why is it you like GSDs, and why do you like wolfdogs like the Czech and Saarloos? Once you know this, weigh the importance of the arguments (GSD vs wolfdog). Once you've done that, you'll likely be able to make a good and honest decision for yourself when deciding what kind of dog (breed) might be the better option for you.


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## ADalla (Oct 1, 2011)

nekomi said:


> Absolutely FALSE. This can be the case with SOME wolfdogs but definitely not ALL or even MOST. Usually you'd only see this with an adult rescue from a bad or unknown situation, really. I certainly am not "on guard" all the time when interacting with my wolfdogs..


Perhaps having more experience with wolfdogs you understand behavioural tendancies and feel more comfortable. Is there also a distinction between wolfdogs and wolf hybrids? With wolf hybrids I know it depends on content/which temperament shows up genetically, and there have been some devastating incidents with owners who don't understand the unique needs they present. 

Personally for me, but I don't have the experience with those breeds, the fact that crossings of wolves happening as recently as the 1930's makes it more "wolf" than I'm comfortable with. When you think about domesticated dogs they are a very different animal and with most you'd be very hard pressed to find an actual wolf ancestor hundreds of years back.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Protecting...is not a trait I look for, rather alertness or warning? Wilbur isnt small but hes not going to take down a intruder but I would be wide awake before anyone came into my house. Any new dog, Im going to be putting alot of time into, if its a czech wolfdog or saarlos or a chihuaha. One thing that I always do is be the most responsible person I can be when it comes to animals...because if your not you can be that person on the news that ruins animal X reputation.
I personally like Gsds for a couple of reasons. A good guy I know is a police officer and owns a gsd for naroctics. Beautiful dog, but also very smart and affectionate and very protective of his owner. I like gsds for their look 2...I mean come on. Alot of dogs I like are herders, ex cardigan, gsds etc. The gsds Ive encountered are...fast(mentally) and use alot of...emotion. Just a couple of reasons...also their drive. Just from What Ive read on the the Saarloos and Czech, they are different, intelligent(apparently), aloof with a strong owner bond, and willing to work, and abilty to learn(not easily trainible kinda thing but pick up what they are trained). I would consider myself a newbie and def need to think about this some and look for quite a few weeks(as I usually do) but these dogs have spiked my full intrest. 
I would like to know more about the Saarloos being mainly companion while the czech is more working....Thanks again for all the great info so far.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ADalla said:


> Perhaps having more experience with wolfdogs you understand behavioural tendancies and feel more comfortable. Is there also a distinction between wolfdogs and wolf hybrids? With wolf hybrids I know it depends on content/which temperament shows up genetically, and there have been some devastating incidents with owners who don't understand the unique needs they present.
> 
> Personally for me, but I don't have the experience with those breeds, the fact that crossings of wolves happening as recently as the 1930's makes it more "wolf" than I'm comfortable with. When you think about domesticated dogs they are a very different animal and with most you'd be very hard pressed to find an actual wolf ancestor hundreds of years back.


Perhaps in the greater timeline of dogs coming into existence, the 1930's are pretty recent. But compared to the amount of generations of dogs that have been produced since then, it's a long time. Perhaps it is only the knowledge of the fact that somewhere down the line, there are two individual wolves to be found in the breed's ancestry, that's unsettling to you. That would be a psychological thing. When looking at the dog's behavior, certain traits like shyness have been preserved in the breed. That's about the only main behavioristic remains of these two individual wolves. These breeds aren't any more dangerous than for example a GSD would be. Possibly even less dangerous, since their flight instincts are so prominent. (this is different with the Czech though. As I mentioned in a previous post, behavior-wise, the Czech and Saarloos are very different from each other) 

I'd say there is definitely a distinction between wolfdogs--as in, actual established dog breeds--and wolf hybrids which are crosses between dogs and wolves. Wolfdogs like the Saarloos and Czech aren't considered hybrids anymore, haven't been for a long time. Since they have been breeding pure for so long--no wolf used--they have lost the label 'crossbred' or 'hybrid' and ever since their recognition, have been purebred dogs. To my knowledge, since the admission of both Saarloos and Czech by the FCI, there have been no further crosses with wolves. At least, with the Saarloos. I'm not sure about the Czech, but logic tells me that they couldn't have continued crossing them after recognition, seeing that any such crosses wouldn't have received a pedigree, which would have made the whole thing pointless.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

See avie I find the thought of a wolf SOMEWHERE waaay down the line amazing, to know .00000000001 percent of the dog has...wolf trait is mind blowing to me. And please refer to my post above as I want to know more about the behavior differeces.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

You're welcome Zach  

I'd like to share a link to one of the Dutch breed clubs: 
AVLS
Q&A: (translated by google translate, so don't expect the best translation) 
AVLS questions and answers

The Saarloos has two breed clubs here in the Netherlands. Ever since the Saarloos received the green light for multiple breed clubs, other breeds soon followed. The reason for the multiple breed clubs for the Saarloos is because there have been problems regarding the breeding program of the first breed club, the NVSWH (dutch club for saarloos wolfhonden). Anyone who disagreed with their policies was swiftly kicked out, and those members started their own breed club, the AVLS (association of saarloos wolfhond lovers). This is the club I linked to. They have a lot of information on their website, also in English, so that should be very interesting to those wanting to know more about the breed. 
The reason that I won't link to the other breed club is because I think they give a misguided view of the breed. The breeders in that club deny that their dogs have any hereditary defects, while their dogs suffer from joint and eye problems, epilepsy and even infertility--caused directly by mindless inbreeding. 

From the site of the AVLS: 
_"The Saarlooswolfhond is a beautiful dog to look at, but that should not be the most significant. Any dog -"beautiful" or "ugly" can contribute to the breed in it's own way.
It is good that this conception is increasing. AVLS wants to inform her breeders in a way that they will be able to make an appropriate consideration in the way they breed. With a small breed as the Saarlooswolfhond this is important.

When you choose a Saarlooswolfhond to be your next family member, choose with your heart, but also with common sense. Go and visit owners, talk and ask. Go on dog walks with a group, contact different breeders and meet different types of dogs. You are very welcome to do so!
The Saarlooswolfhond is a dog with a whiff of nature, a dog to get addicted to...."_

EDIT: I'm off to bed now, I'll try my best to reply the soonest I can tomorrow.


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## ADalla (Oct 1, 2011)

Sorry, I replied.. I guess it didn't post?

Thanks for the info though  

I think it's definitely psychological for me. It would be like hearing, "this housecat is part bobcat.." To me those are wild animals, and although I have a great amount of respect for them I would not want them in my home knowing that they have predatory instincts for a valid reason in the wild, why would I want them in my home. On the otherhand I worked in for the Ministry of Natural Resources waaaay up north on the Yukon river. I saw more Grizzly bears than you can imagine. I was trained for wildlife interaction, they taught us all about how to react mostly in bear/big cat situations, to a lesser degree wolves. But I know and have seen what they are capable of and they are designed to inflict damage by their very nature. I can get a dog and for the most part not have to worry about that. 

I think the timid/shyness also plays a huge part for me. I prefer bold, self-assured dogs. Flightyness makes me nervous because to me it indicates a lack of trust and I'm always worried what happens when that dog is cornered, ya know? How does it react? Is it overwhelmed to the point of snap?


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

I think this would be a terrible decision for a newbie owner.


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## ADalla (Oct 1, 2011)

katielou said:


> I think this would be a terrible decision for a newbie owner.


I agree! I think about how many Siberians are in rescue and shelters and I shudder.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

ADalla said:


> I agree! I think about how many Siberians are in rescue and shelters and I shudder.


??? Understood...but questioned, I think anyone can dedicate and learn about care for animal X but it takes time and research. I think alot of the reason certain breeds...huskies for example end up in shelters because of impulse buys which are a very bad idea dealing with animals. I doubt that most of the animals in shelters were bought by someone who researched, talked to people and learned all they could over time. I started this thread to learn more about these animals. I am VERY VERY intrigued by these beautiful animals and want to see what it takes to keep them resoponsibly. Do not expect that Im thinking about going out and buying the next Czech wolfdog I see (lol Ive never even seen one in real life so idk how that would happen...) I might think about this breed after I learn more and I find them very intresting but please dont mistake this thread for something its not. 
Thanks, Avie for all the good reading, Im gonna be busy = ). and Adalla I respect the way you feel about the small percentage of wolf dna, and all people probally think diff about it, but its cool

Btw not trying to get back at you or anything there and not trying to sound harsh sorry if I did, I just want to express that this isnt even a decision right now, this is learning about sweet animals, their personalitys, and what it takes to own one. Thanks


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## ADalla (Oct 1, 2011)

I think the difference for me is that I see waaaaaay too many idiots and not enough educated people on the subject. I've had people approach me on walks trying to tell me my purebred Great Pyrenees is a wolf hybrid/mix even after I've explained to them his pedigree ("Aw naw man... see his size and his hair..." - Uh pretty sure I do and if you've ever seen a Pyr, you'd recognize it! Google it! LOL), and then go on to talk about theirs (granted if they're dumb enough to think my dog is part wolf they probably owned a husky mix) But still, I think even a good majority of pet owners who don't dump their dogs into shelters aren't taking the time to properly train and exercise their pets, but a whole different subject and I realise I shouldn't lump everybody like that. I know responsible owners exist out there in small numbers! 

If you're up to it, absolutely educated, know what your getting yourself into then by all means 

But I also wonder that for the first time owner do they have the proper yardstick of understand the comparison of what kind of attention they'll need to devote. 

I don't at all agree with hybrids, wolf dogs I can understand a bit more maybe.

Not at all trying to impede your learning and I super respect the fact that you are taking the time to learn about them etc.  Sorry if I come off as a jerk. Not my intention.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

I understand exactly what your saying Adalla. People say Wilbur (purebreed Cardigan) oh what a nice border collie it doesnt bother me but makes me lol. Granted they dont go on to talk about their wolf hybrid but I get the jist. Wilbur is my first dog...but Ive been around dogs all my life, from collies to danes to deaf and blind pitbulls all of my family (besides mine) is pretty animal oriented each owning at least a bird dog and reptile. Along with multiple dogs, some responsibly some not. Im going to be getting a tegu this summer and its taken me a year to research, plan, and get ready for getting a 4+ft lizard that will live for 10+ years, but Im ready. 
With the help of this forum, the internet, and books I can learn what I dont know, and build on what I do, to be able to care for a czech wolfdog. 
I am a fan of...hybrids for PET purposes and none other, breeding I dont agree with...example f2 generation burmball offspring (ball python X burmese). Creating a new breed of dog like something as sweet as czech wolfdog count me in. But if a hybrid results in worse life quality instead of better it should never happen again. 
Thanks


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## ADalla (Oct 1, 2011)

I guess that's where wolf hybrids fit in for me. I don't believe that high content wolf hybrids belong in people's houses as pets. As Avie has explained it, it doesn't sound to me like this is the case with wolf-dogs. But hybrids who retain wild instincts I could imagine it being a very conflicted, confused animal.

Sorry! *blush* I'll shut up now.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

I understand, in this case if I would decide a breed now I would get a czech because the lesser thought of flight instinct. Self assured is not a trait I loof for in a dog, but it would be hard for me to have a...dog that shyed away from someone rather than ignored them because people are going to stop and ask about that that that THING!!! at the end of your leash lol = ). And I dont know to much about the wolf hybrids Nekomi pitch in here give us some info but are high content pups even from full blooded wolfs....for high content I would guess wolf mix X wolf Mix or Wolf X dog but low content I would guess Wolf mix X pure dog.


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## ADalla (Oct 1, 2011)

I see a difference between self-assured and reserved and aloof. Aloof to me means less of a tendancy to seek affection from, reserved to me means it takes a long time for that dog to warm up to or become friendly with strangers. At least that's the way my weird little brain works. 

For instance I have a very confident, self-assured dog, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's outwardly friendly nor affectionate with people he doesn't know. But it also means he's definitely not going to hide between my legs. Shyness in livestock guardians (LGDs like Great Pyrs) is super frowned upon because they would not perform their function as flock guardians if they were flighty. Sorry, off-topic, but that's how I relate it in my brain.

Shyness to me is not a really desireable trait, but I know even in very well established old world breeds it can be a tendancy, breeds like Salukis for example are shy.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

The alertness and warning is present in both Czech and Saarloos Wolfdogs. A Saarloos would never take down an intruder, but a Czech might. If you know how to motivate the dog, you could do obedience with a Czech. A Saarloos, too, might be up for it, but they lack the so called will to please. Both breeds are intelligent and trainable, but especially for the Saarloos it goes that you can never expect total obedience from the dog. When faced with a -to the dog- absolutely 'life threatening' situation, the Saarloos will always listen to what his own instincts tell him instead of your commands. It bonds strongly with its owner, and very deeply too, but in the end you can never expect the total obedience that the average dog could give you. The Czech bonds very strongly with its owner as well and does not have the flight tendency as much as the Saarloos does. In fact, they're known to be far more bolder and daring which was what made them suitable as army dogs. They want to work with you, they want to please you, though not in the sense a shepherd or collie would. 'Courageous' is something that would better describe the Czech than the Saarloos. While Saarlozen tend to be shy, Czech tend to be aloof. Both learn easily, but again, total obedience can not be expected, although the Czech can be a good working dog. 

The reason why the Saarloos is companion only, is because they're simply not suited as a working dog. People have tried at some point in time, but efforts have failed. You could say the Saarloos doesn't have as much 'backbone' that's needed to fare well in city life, noisy streets, a lot of new impressions and people (though there are Saarlozen that do well in city life, as always there are exceptions). Along with this, they do not feel the need to heed your every command. Instead they are very happy to be in your company and that of other (saarloos wolf-)dogs, preferably always. They're very pack oriented and have a keen eye for hierarchy. Some say their ways of communication is somewhat different from other 'regular' dog breeds. Harsh methods for training is absolutely not for them and will only result in not only a shy, but downright frightful dog with little trust. Obviously a dog like that won't function well. They attach to their owner, who basically becomes their pillar of trust, something solid they can always hang on to. If the owner does not show that he can be trusted, that he deserves the dog's trust, the dog won't be able to rely on you and it will be more likely to flee away in a situation that scares him, instead of looking to you for help. 

It speaks for itself that owning a Saarloos Wolfhond takes a lot of appreciation for the dog's nature, patience, time, and a lot of dedication. The result may be very rewarding to those that are willing to make the effort. But needless to say, the Saarloos Wolfdog isn't for everyone  

For more information about the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, or Československý vlčák as it is called in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, visit these sites: 
Czech kennel club
Slovakian Czechoslovakian Wolfdog club (google translated page) 

_"Československý vlčák dogs show tremendous loyalty towards their masters. They are fearless and courageous, they can be suspicious towards unknown persons, however, they never attack without reason. They are resistant to weather conditions. With regard to their activity, they need a sufficient work – they are versatile, can be used as working dogs (their scenting qualities are widely known), but their training should respect their specific properties."_


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## Cindy23323 (Mar 31, 2010)

ZachAttackandWilbur said:


> Wow, ever since I was really young Ive had a thing for wolves, just something about them but its been awhile since Ive thought any thing of them. I was on dogbreed info .com and came across this. http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/czechoslovakianwolfdog.htm
> Picture took my breath away, and makes me want one, but I know its unrealistic to even think about, especially being in Florida...but I just wanted to see some pics of your guys Wolfdogs or Wolfy dogs like huskies and malumutes etc and was also wondering about wolfy breeds like huskies etc are any a good idea with a average owner and good obdeince training or are these breeds for the experienced. Thanks


Czek wolfdogs are not the same as regular wolfdogs ( wolf hybrids as some still call them) The wolf has been bred out of them.
Also why do you say especially being in flor. Floridas laws on wolfdogs used to be anything under 85% you could own without any rules, anything over 85% you had to get a class 2 wildlife permit, but the 85% law just changed last year. My male Loki is actually out of Florida


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

I just talked to one of the czech 4 breeders in america and he said they love the cold, but fare well in the heat...Avie I reeallly appreciate all the info, and links. Hey Cindy some pics of Loki??? Had to ask, and I guess czechs arent any problem to own in fl


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## Cindy23323 (Mar 31, 2010)

I know that Galomy oak here in va. who actually has a pup in Florida. I believe they still co own him/her.

Yep got tons of pics of Loki. There's abit more here, along with some vids. http://virginiawolves.zoomshare.com/


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Beautiful boy, high content Im guessing. Very cool.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

High content wolf dogs are extremely dangerous, but mid and low content are much easier to cope with. 
And by the way, google "Tasmaskan truth," and you will see that those dogs that are supposedly "the wolfdog without the wolf" really do have a bunch of wolf blood in them. 
http://the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fable.blogspot.com/


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## Cindy23323 (Mar 31, 2010)

Sparky that info is totally wrong, High content wds are not extremely dangerous. I have two that are ages 5 and 4, and both are very lovable.
Now they are very much a handful and not meant for everyone though, they do require a great deal of work.



ZachAttackandWilbur said:


> Beautiful boy, high content Im guessing. Very cool.


Thanks, yes he is a high content

Here's some more pics of my so called EXTREMELY DANGEROUS animals (Being sarcastic of course) lol



























































Selene was a bottle baby who also loved to pascify on fingers to go to sleep. As you see she still does this


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

I know they're not dangerous all the time but much more likely to challenge their owners, which results in death/fatal injuries. You also do not seem to be the "typical" person, and you seem to know a lot more about wolfdogs than "typical" people. What I said in my post was meant for the average Joe. I know there are many reputable HC wolfdog breeders out there that are not mauled, but I've also heard a lot about regular people who own HC's that ARE.


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## Cindy23323 (Mar 31, 2010)

Thats not just about hc wolfdogs though any large animal could be dangerous if not raised properly, and there's a plenty people out there that shouldnt own even a hamster, never less a large animal.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

HC wolfdogs challenge their owners for leadership in the "pack" and that's what makes them dangerous. Even mid-contents aren't safe if you have children living in the home, because they will try to test the hierarchy of the family and can seriously injure the child. Other predators don't tend to live in such structural groups, so they don't pose the same dangers, though they have other dangers of their own.


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## Cindy23323 (Mar 31, 2010)

Again untrue, not All do this, neither of mine have ever done it. Some may yes, but not all. What experience with these animals do you have to constantly keep making such claims???

Your going around making statements that are untrue, that would be like saying for ex. all pitbulls are evil and are going to attack and kill people, that is such an untrue statement.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

I think you've got me all wrong. I'm only saying not everyone should own wolfdogs unless they have a lot of knowledge in pack structure and have experiences with real wolves. Please do not tell me that you're actually advocating that HC wolfdogs are completely safe as family pets!


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Real wolves? Are talking like into the wild type thing here? No offense Sparky but Ive seen quite a few of cindys posts and she seems very knowalageable about wolfdogs, hybrids. 
I understand what you are trying to say but you are making wrongful assertions. You are trying to say they CAN be dangerous WHEN raised IMPROPERLY but when raised PROPERLY by people like CIndy, they seem like AWESOME FAMILY PETS. 
Thanks Cindy for the pics and any info on wolfdogs and or czech and saarlooss not Reall wolfdogs but still, is appreciated. Thanks


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

Cindy23323 said:


>


I'm sure you've heard it a million times...but THIS is a BEAUTIFUL animal. His eyes are stunning!


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Those yellow eyes are one of those things for me about wolves, high contents etc


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

Thank you Cindy for stepping in on this thread and sharing pics of your stunningly beautiful, EXTREMELY DANGEROUS wolfdogs. 

That is all.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

ohhh we have Nekomi and Cindy on this thread, sweet. Got any pics to share Nekomi?


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

ZachAttackandWilbur said:


> Those yellow eyes are one of those things for me about wolves, high contents etc


Just a note: There are multiple breeds with the potential for golden eyes.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

i know...its just one thing that makes me ooo ahhh at wolves, wolf dogs


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Sparky, are you actually arguing with a HC wolfdog owner about what HC wolfdogs are like?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> Just a note: There are multiple breeds with the potential for golden eyes.


It's interesting that so many breeds penalize light eyes -- I've heard it theorized that it's because the 'predatory' expression it gives to a dog weirds some people out.


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## Cindy23323 (Mar 31, 2010)

nekomi said:


> Thank you Cindy for stepping in on this thread and sharing pics of your stunningly beautiful, EXTREMELY DANGEROUS wolfdogs.
> 
> That is all.


Lol figured you might show up soon to talk about your dangerous babies too


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Sparky, are you actually arguing with a HC wolfdog owner about what HC wolfdogs are like?


My thought exactly.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

I find it appealing, very....awesome trait, almost as good as my boys big brown eyes lol


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

I don't think it matters what CONTENT of wolfdog we're talking, so much as how WELL-BRED and WELL-RAISED the animals are that determines safety. As an example, a HC that has been selectively bred for sound temperament, and brought up in a consistent, loving environment (like Cindy's!  ) is going to be much safer to handle than a LC that was poorly bred with no thought to temperament, and raised incorrectly, abused or neglected. As usual, it all comes down to the breeder and owner doing their respective jobs properly. I'm not saying there is NO difference between wolfdogs of different content ranges - as content DOES obviously influence the range of behaviors you will see in the animal. However, content alone does NOT determine safety of the animal in question. 

Also, "completely safe as family pets" is a very relative statement. A German Shepherd may be a great family pet for the RIGHT family, and an accident waiting to happen for another family. Same goes for basically any breed, including wolfdogs. THAT SAID, HC wolfdog ownership is different from "family pet" ownership and requires a substantially higher level of commitment and experience. That is not because they are inherently dangerous. It is because they have different needs than domestic dogs. They will generally not be happy living 100% inside your home. They will need vastly more mental stimulation and enrichment. They will need more room to stretch their legs. The list goes on and on. 

I often compare wolfdog ownership to ownership of horses. You wouldn't expect a horse to be able to live happily inside your home (LOL), but that does not make a horse an inherently bad companion or family pet. 

Also, "wolf hybrid" is a horribly outdated term as wolves and dogs are the same species scientifically.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Thanks for the info...and Ill try to not use hybrid anymore as your right there the same species what is it cani, canus something like that.


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

nekomi said:


> I don't think it matters what CONTENT of wolfdog we're talking, so much as how WELL-BRED and WELL-RAISED the animals are that determines safety. As an example, a HC that has been selectively bred for sound temperament, and brought up in a consistent, loving environment (like Cindy's!  ) is going to be much safer to handle than a LC that was poorly bred with no thought to temperament, and raised incorrectly, abused or neglected. As usual, it all comes down to the breeder and owner doing their respective jobs properly. I'm not saying there is NO difference between wolfdogs of different content ranges - as content DOES obviously influence the range of behaviors you will see in the animal. However, content alone does NOT determine safety of the animal in question.
> 
> Also, "completely safe as family pets" is a very relative statement. A German Shepherd may be a great family pet for the RIGHT family, and an accident waiting to happen for another family. Same goes for basically any breed, including wolfdogs. THAT SAID, HC wolfdog ownership is different from "family pet" ownership and requires a substantially higher level of commitment and experience. That is not because they are inherently dangerous. It is because they have different needs than domestic dogs. They will generally not be happy living 100% inside your home. They will need vastly more mental stimulation and enrichment. They will need more room to stretch their legs. The list goes on and on.
> 
> ...


:clap2: Absolutely perfect post.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

If you must differentiate between Czech/Sarloos and wolfdogs with more recent wolf heritage, you can do like the Europeans do and call the latter "American wolfdogs". Helps keep things a bit simpler.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

really Thanks nekomi, btw Im looked through hoof and howl site and beautiful dogs


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

You people that are saying HC's make perfectly great family pets when raised properly are completely wrong. I've heard of so many people mauled by their wolfdogs that have owned lots of wolfdogs and have been attacked by them. Everything I've been reading about HC wolfdogs for the regular homes have been very bad. They are always called "potentially extremely dangerous", "NOT pets", "only handled by professionals". So yes, perhaps Cindy's wolfdogs are not dangerous because she is a professional in raising them, but what I'm saying comes from even more knowledgeable people, like actual wolfdog scientists that study them and other canines for a living, and from people who's wolfdogs are actually ambassadors! I think you guys are the very confused ones in this situation. Cindy says wolfdogs are perfectly safe family pets, but do the real professionals? THEY'RE THE ONES WHO SAY THE WOLFDOGS ARE DANGEROUS, NOT ME!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sparky62704 said:


> You people that are saying HC's make perfectly great family pets when raised properly are completely wrong. I've heard of so many people mauled by their wolfdogs that have owned lots of wolfdogs and have been attacked by them. Everything I've been reading about HC wolfdogs for the regular homes have been very bad. They are always called "potentially extremely dangerous", "NOT pets", "only handled by professionals". So yes, perhaps Cindy's wolfdogs are not dangerous because she is a professional in raising them, but what I'm saying comes from even more knowledgeable people, like actual wolfdog scientists that study them and other canines for a living, and from people who's wolfdogs are actually ambassadors! I think you guys are the very confused ones in this situation. Cindy says wolfdogs are perfectly safe family pets, but do the real professionals? THEY'RE THE ONES WHO SAY THE WOLFDOGS ARE DANGEROUS, NOT ME!


Go away. You're arguing with two exceptionally experienced wolf dog owners. You are not one and have likely never been around one. Stop reading garbage you find on google and regurgitating if as if you speak the gospel.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

wolfdog scientists? whatchoo been smokin hun?

lol. 

WOLVES... are not pets. handled by pros...licensing required. 

wolfdogs are not so cut and dried.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Ok, Sparky I have to ask, you just join the forum start stating your expert knowledge on this thread AGAINST what very respectable owners have to say and yet you dont even 
own one? You hope to own one? 
I started this thread to get info and personal opions from people on here like Avie, Adalla, Cindy, Nekomi and others who have contributred and I appreciate it, but please stop contridictating everything usefull other people are saying...now if you have some quotes from "Wolf Dog Scientist" post them and I would be glad to read.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Sparky with your attitude please stay away from wolfdogs and Pixiebobs you're badly misinformed and trying spread your misinformation here on a forum with knowledgeable wolfdog owners and rescuers. Frankly you're not suited to either animal.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> You people that are saying HC's make perfectly great family pets


Who here is saying they make great family pets? In fact we've said specifically that they are NOT typical "family pets", but that does not make them "extremely dangerous", just different from regular dogs.



> I've heard of so many people mauled by their wolfdogs that have owned lots of wolfdogs and have been attacked by them.


I'd love for you to back this up. Also, you already know about wolfdog misrepresentation, and the fact that the majority of "wolfdogs" sold out there are NOT actually wolfdogs. So, how many of those "stories you've heard" about wolfdogs mauling their owners, do you think contained ACTUAL wolfdogs? Much less, high content wolfdogs?



> Everything I've been reading about HC wolfdogs for the regular homes have been very bad. They are always called "potentially extremely dangerous", "NOT pets", "only handled by professionals".


Maybe you need different reading material. Less biased for starters. No one is saying a HC wolfdog belongs in every home or even the majority of homes. But your view on them is extremely unbalanced. Go look up Nicole Wilde's books "Living with Wolfdogs" and "Wolfdogs A - Z". She is a "professional" who has been handling, studying, and rescuing wolfdogs for years.



> So yes, perhaps Cindy's wolfdogs are not dangerous because she is a professional in raising them,


So here you admit that Cindy is a "professional", yet you disregard everything that she says?



> like actual wolfdog scientists that study them and other canines for a living,


ACTUAL WOLFDOG SCIENTISTS. LOL. I'm totally going to go change my signature now. 

Nicole Wilde, mentioned above, studies wolfdogs and other canines for a living. Maybe you should go check out her books.



> and from people who's wolfdogs are actually ambassadors!


How do you know that Cindy's animals and my animals (mid-contents) are NOT ambassadors? I know Cindy's wolfdogs are beautifully socialized and I imagine they've changed a lot of minds in their area. Mine have done the same. How are they NOT ambassadors for their "breed"?

You might want to ask Scott Soto, clearly a "professional" as his animals are "actual ambassadors" who encounter the public on a daily basis, what he thinks of high-content wolfdog ownership. Check out his videos. Clearly his animals are very dangerous.


















> I think you guys are the very confused ones in this situation.


Yep, that must be the case since Cindy and I deal with these animals on a daily basis. We're so very confused. I wonder how long we have until our wolfdogs sneak into our bedrooms one night and kill us in our sleep? Crafty monsters! 



> THEY'RE THE ONES WHO SAY THE WOLFDOGS ARE DANGEROUS, NOT ME!


Don't shoot the messenger, huh? So if that's what the professionals are saying - and not you - then what do *YOU*, personally, believe about wolfdogs and their ownership?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Sparky, are you actually arguing with a HC wolfdog owner about what HC wolfdogs are like?


Oh, I see. You actually are. :/


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

so my question now is as follows..

is being an ACTUAL ambassador or ACTUAL wolfdog scientist anything like being a mainstream dog owner? because i'd really like to learn how if it is.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> so my question now is as follows..
> 
> is being an ACTUAL ambassador or ACTUAL wolfdog scientist anything like being a mainstream dog owner? because i'd really like to learn how if it is.


ROFL, classic Zim!


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Mualed by her wolfdogs: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06200/706840-59.stm

Talking about how HC's DON'T make good family pets: http://texx-wolf-tails.webs.com/highcontentwolfdogs.htm

And read the book "The Company of Wolves" by Peter Steinhart, where he talks about how wolfdogs are very dangerous (stories of them turning on their owners; even "experienced" owners).

About how they make bad pets: http://songdogrescue.com/do_wolfdogs_make_good_pets

About how "no amount of training" can make them safe. http://www.2keller.com/library/dangerous-dog-alert-wolf-hybrids-more-likely-to-bite.cfm

How they're aggressive and kill people: http://www.timberwolfinformation.org/info/archieve/newspapers/viewnews.cfm?ID=2202

What WOLF HAVEN has to say: http://www.wolfhaven.org/what_am_i_getting_into.php

About how they're not suited as pets and can be dangerous (from Wolf Park): http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfhybridposition.shtml

Talks a little about how wolfdogs are dangerous to anyone smaller than the typical 14 year old: http://www.wolfpark.org/Images/Education/ArticlesWordDocs/HybridGuidelines.pdf

Need I put up more links?


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

And no, Cindy doesn't seem to be acting like an owner of an ambassador wolfdog, because those owners make sure the public knows that wolfdogs are dangerous. Some won't even sell you a wolfdog unless they're certain you are going to go around to schools and etc., educating others!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

No, you need to go away, as I previously suggested. You have no idea what you're talking about and just infuriating every one who does, in fact, know what they're talking about.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Oh yeah, and you people saying I'm being biased, a lot of the info I get are from people who love wolfdogs and dedicate their time to studying them, protecting them, and educating others on them. How is that kind of info biased? And I'm not trying to make wolfdogs out to be "bad". I love wolves!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

lololololol you seriously cited a Keller and Keller website.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Don't tell me to go away, who are you, God? 
And you mean people who THINK they know better than all those other professionals who's studied wolfdogs.

How does this have anything to do with cats?


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Sparky with your attitude please stay away from wolfdogs and Pixiebobs you're badly misinformed and trying spread your misinformation here on a forum with knowledgeable wolfdog owners and rescuers. Frankly you're not suited to either animal.


 this is what i was talking about^


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

ZachAttackandWilbur said:


> when raised PROPERLY by people like CIndy, they seem like AWESOME FAMILY PETS.


so , what about "we didn't say they made great family pets?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sparky62704 said:


> Don't tell me to go away, who are you, God?
> And you mean people who THINK they know better than all those other professionals who's studied wolfdogs.
> 
> How does this have anything to do with cats?


Why as a matter of fact.. 

I'm telling YOU you don't know better, because you've dropped onto this thread like a turd and are just regurgitating sites, some of which you don't even understand the language of but are using to support your cause even though they... don't, and don't have a lick of sense about you on this topic.

I didn't say a single thing about cats..


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

You are not seeming to get that they CAN be dangerous and they also CAN NOT be dangerous. In the hands of the right people (people like cindy and amanda and even celia) they can be PERFECTLY NORMAL and GREAT family pets. In the hands of somebody with no experience and not a clue, they CAN be an accident waiting to happen.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

nekomi said:


> Who here is saying they make great family pets? In fact we've said specifically that they are NOT typical "family pets", but that does not make them "extremely dangerous", just different from regular dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 *What I think? I think like what the professionals think. Not some chick that comes on here saying she has wolfdogs and they're the best thing ever. *


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> You are not seeming to get that the CAN be dangerous and they also CAN NOT be dangerous. In the hands of the right people (people like cindy and amanda and even celia) they can be PERFECTLY NORMAL and GREAT family pets. In the hands of somebody with no experience and not a clue, they CAN be an accident waiting to happen.


Exactly, much the same way any large breed dog CAN be dangerous and an accident waiting to happen in the wrong hands.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

and did i ever say i didn't agree?!


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

The fact that you are planning on getting a mid-content terrifies me.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> You are not seeming to get that they CAN be dangerous and they also CAN NOT be dangerous. In the hands of the right people (people like cindy and amanda and even celia) they can be PERFECTLY NORMAL and GREAT family pets. In the hands of somebody with no experience and not a clue, they CAN be an accident waiting to happen.


and did i ever say i didn't agree?! I know they can be safe, but mainly they aren't family pets unless you've had experience. Even then, they aren't completely safe.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Exactly, much the same way any large breed dog CAN be dangerous and an accident waiting to happen in the wrong hands.


Not as dangerous, apparently, as wolfdogs, or else there wouldn't be so many experts frightened of their mind when they hear someone's adopted a wolfdog.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> *What I think? I think like what the professionals think. Not some chick that comes on here saying she has wolfdogs and they're the best thing ever. *



you like talking in places without sunlight don't you?

Nekomi IS a pro. works in wolfdog rescue, has done time at Wolf Park Research Facility.

the more you post, the more hilarious this thread gets.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Why as a matter of fact..
> 
> I'm telling YOU you don't know better, because you've dropped onto this thread like a turd and are just regurgitating sites, some of which you don't even understand the language of but are using to support your cause even though they... don't, and don't have a lick of sense about you on this topic.
> 
> I didn't say a single thing about cats..


i was talking about someone else (the cats). 
and they are loads of other sites that do support what i'm saying, but one of them is gone now. 
That one had a great deal of info on wolfdogs and scared me. It was talking about what to do when a wolfdog challenged you and rose up and put its paws on your shoulders and snarled into your face and all that and it was saying you had to be dominant and all that "good" stuff. 
Yeaaa that's really soo not dangerous.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Miranda16 said:


> The fact that you are planning on getting a mid-content terrifies me.


lol ya rite. Odds are it will not be any content.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> you like talking in places without sunlight don't you?
> 
> Nekomi IS a pro. works in wolfdog rescue, has done time at Wolf Park Research Facility.
> 
> the more you post, the more hilarious this thread gets.


Then i wonder why she's going against what wolf park believes in?


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> Then i wonder why she's going against what wolf park believes in?


She's not. you just don't seem to be able to read.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

And I'm going to ignore any insults on what you THINK you know about my future, because obviously you people have nothing else to say and are trying to hurt me. Guess what? You guys are over the internet. Nothing you say can hurt 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> She's not. you just don't seem to be able to read.


What i've been getting from her is "wolfdogs are perfectly safe if raised properly". THAT IS SO NOT TRUE!


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sparky62704 said:


> i was talking about someone else (the cats).
> and they are loads of other sites that do support what i'm saying, but one of them is gone now.
> That one had a great deal of info on wolfdogs and scared me. It was talking about what to do when a wolfdog challenged you and rose up and put its paws on your shoulders and snarled into your face and all that and it was saying you had to be dominant and all that "good" stuff.
> Yeaaa that's really soo not dangerous.


So quote someone else. And it was brought up by them because you have "Pets I Will Get One Day" followed by a Pixie Bob. 

And the "loads" of sites you gave us are laughable at best (KELLER AND KELLER? REALLY?) and the ones that are decent (wolf park) you actually just didn't understand. I have no idea why you're talking about wolf dogs at all, or why you have a picture of some random dog you pulled off the internet listed as you future dog. 

lolololol be dominant towards a wolf dog. ahahahahaha.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> What i've been getting from her is "wolfdogs are perfectly safe if raised properly". THAT IS SO NOT TRUE!


it is true. it is extremely true and if you had any familiarity with wolf park..you'd know that.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Wow, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

What i am saying about your future is that (according to your sig.) you plan on getting a mid-content. With the number of misinformed statements you are making, I am scared. Also, have you ever heard don't believe everything you read. Applicable in this instance. You are arguing with people who WORK EVERYDAY with these animals ... and in somecases ACTUAL WOLVES, not just wolfdogs. I would be trying to take in as much information as possible, FROM EVERYWHERE. If you can't do that and plan on getting a WD... i would suggest sticking to the stuffed dog in your avatar.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Then i wonder why she's going against what wolf park believes in?


Because she isn't. If you actually READ and COMPREHEND what that link says, you'll see that they're NOT saying wolf dogs can't be great companions, they're saying that if they're IMPROPERLY kept, they can be dangerous, but are fine in the right hands. BIG difference. 



> We are NOT against anyone possessing captive wolves or hybrids. Nor do we advocate legislation that would make it illegal to possess such animals. We have long recognized that telling people that they cannot possess these animals will not prevent them from breeding or owning them.





> Finally, we are concerned that pet wolves and hybrids improperly kept, when they do cause damage negatively affect the image of the wolf in the wild. Hence, we all should do what we can to prevent this by practicing and promoting responsible ownership.


Again, they're NOT saying that wolf dogs don't make good companions, they're saying that they CAN be dangerous if kept in small cages, tied up with chains, untrained and unsocialized. Big. Difference.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> it is true. it is extremely true and if you had any familiarity with wolf park..you'd know that.


No, it's not true. Do your research people.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

sparky62704 said:


> Wow, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.


Really ... Really .....

How many wolfdogs have you owned.... Please... Enlighten us all.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So why do you want to get a mid-content wolfdog some day if they're so dangerous?



Oh, and Pixie-Bobs, if they have any bobcat blood at all (it's debatable), it's long gone. They're fully domesticated cats, not considered hybrids like Savannahs or Bengals. Some statements here made it sound like some people think they're hybrids.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> No, it's not true. Do your research people.



i have. i've done enough time with wolves to know when someone's talking about of their wooha like you are. you're hilarious..keep it up. i haven't laughed this hard at a thread in ages.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> No, it's not true. Do your research people.


Sounds like you need to follow your own advice. Have YOU been to Wolf Park? 'cause Nekomi has. Have YOU studied with "wolf scientists"? She has. You have NO clue what you're talking about here, seriously.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> What i am saying about your future is that (according to your sig.) you plan on getting a mid-content. With the number of misinformed statements you are making, I am scared. Also, have you ever heard don't believe everything you read. Applicable in this instance. You are arguing with people who WORK EVERYDAY with these animals ... and in somecases ACTUAL WOLVES, not just wolfdogs. I would be trying to take in as much information as possible, FROM EVERYWHERE. If you can't do that and plan on getting a WD... i would suggest sticking to the stuffed dog in your avatar.


I don't believe everything I read, only when they come from others WHO TOO HAVE WORKED WITH WOLVES/WOLFDOGS and the site is reliable. Most wolfdog breeders I talk to say wolfdogs are not dangerous, but why is it that when you talk to breeders they always defend their animals, yet in the books and other educ. stuff, they say they're dangerous? Who do you believe.... hmmm... The breeders seem most biased.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> i have. i've done enough time with wolves to know when someone's talking about of their wooha like you are. you're hilarious..keep it up. i haven't laughed this hard at a thread in ages.


Agreed, this is one of the most entertaining threads I've seen in a very long time. We're approaching "Mainstream Mike" or Dogman territory here!


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Sounds like you need to follow your own advice. Have YOU been to Wolf Park? 'cause Nekomi has. Have YOU studied with "wolf scientists"? She has. You have NO clue what you're talking about here, seriously.


Then explain why people are told to not get HC wolfdogs by those experts?



Willowy said:


> So why do you want to get a mid-content wolfdog some day if they're so dangerous?


Because apparently mids only attack little kids.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

It feels good to laugh again, guys.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

The breeders ARE biased. Because they are trying to get your money. But Nekomi etc work in RESCUE where they are RESCUING animals from idiot breeders.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> Then explain why people are told to not get HC wolfdogs by those experts?



legal and monetary issues. not because wolfdogs are "inherently dangerous".


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

sparky62704 said:


> Because apparently mids only attack little kids.


This quote alone shows your ignorance.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> Really ... Really .....
> 
> How many wolfdogs have you owned.... Please... Enlighten us all.


Really really... how many wolfdogs have challenged their owners? Tell me.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Then explain why people are told to not get HC wolfdogs by those experts?


Maybe because many people who read those sites are idiots who aren't fit to own a hampster, much less a wolf dog? Like I said, have you ACTUALLY TALKED to these people? And again, most of those sites you posted are NOT saying what you think they are. I'm thinking reading comprehension really isn't your forte.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> The breeders ARE biased. Because they are trying to get your money. But Nekomi etc work in RESCUE where they are RESCUING animals from idiot breeders.


so why is she saying they're perfectly safe if she wants to protect them? Yeah, they're safe around her (a little) because she knows how to behave around them. But how can she say they've NEVER challenged her? that's so unbelievable and almost always unheard of.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Maybe because many people who read those sites are idiots who aren't fit to own a hampster, much less a wolf dog? Like I said, have you ACTUALLY TALKED to these people? And again, most of those sites you posted are NOT saying what you think they are. I'm thinking reading comprehension really isn't your forte.



im beginning to think reading comprehension isn't their forte because we're dealing with some snot nosed kid overreacting and misinterpreting because of the reactionary nature of most teens.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

sparky62704 said:


> Really really... how many wolfdogs have challenged their owners? Tell me.


... frankly this is irrelevent to the conversation we were having ... Its some kind of logical fallacy ... i just dont remember which ... where the heck is ryan when i need him


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> im beginning to think reading comprehension isn't their forte because we're dealing with some snot nosed kid overreacting and misinterpreting because of the reactionary nature of most teens.


LMAO!!! I'm beginning to think you're right!


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Miranda16 said:


> ... frankly this is irrelevent to the conversation we were having ... Its some kind of logical fallacy ... i just dont remember which ... where the heck is ryan when i need him


strawman????????


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Miranda16 said:


> ... frankly this is irrelevent to the conversation we were having ... Its some kind of logical fallacy ... i just dont remember which ... where the heck is ryan when i need him


Man, when DON'T I need Ryan?


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> strawman????????



Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> strawman????????


probably ... heck if i know ...


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Because she isn't. If you actually READ and COMPREHEND what that link says, you'll see that they're NOT saying wolf dogs can't be great companions, they're saying that if they're IMPROPERLY kept, they can be dangerous, but are fine in the right hands. BIG difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


omg, they talk about how you should be careful if you're the SIZE OF A 14 YEAR OLD!!!!
They will attack you! I am a short person, I'm considered shorter than a 14 year old, and I don't think I'll get any shorter. So even if I went close to one and say, fell, I'd be in big trouble. 

Wolf dogs make good companions, not good pets. You should know the diff is you're so smart.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

it is a strawman. a strawman is where you attack a "man of straw" instead of the arguement being made.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I've been following this and not posting but I have to say WTF? I guess you don't like kids?


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Wolf dogs make good companions, not good pets. You should know the diff is you're so smart.


And where exactly did I say pet? You should know the difference if YOU'RE so smart, but again, reading comrehension, clearly not your forte

Oh, and it's "if" . "If" you're so smart, not "is". Guess your writing skills need some work as well.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

sparky62704 said:


> omg, they talk about how you should be careful if you're the SIZE OF A 14 YEAR OLD!!!!
> They will attack you! I am a short person, I'm considered shorter than a 14 year old, and I don't think I'll get any shorter. So even if I went close to one and say, fell, I'd be in big trouble.


 You are seriously misinformed.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> legal and monetary issues. not because wolfdogs are "inherently dangerous".


No, that IS THE REASON why people are told not to keep them. They're dangerous. Do you really think a person would be told not to keep a hybrid simply because they're destructive? NO.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> omg, they talk about how you should be careful if you're the SIZE OF A 14 YEAR OLD!!!!
> They will attack you! I am a short person, I'm considered shorter than a 14 year old, and I don't think I'll get any shorter. So even if I went close to one and say, fell, I'd be in big trouble.
> 
> Wolf dogs make good companions, not good pets. You should know the diff is you're so smart.


im probably your size. and i don't have to be any more careful around a well bred, well raised and well trained wolfdog than i do a chihuahua.


an abused, neglected and poorly handled animal is a SLIGHTLY different story. but generally not by much.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> This quote alone shows your ignorance.


This is where I got that: http://springwolf.com/wolves/nature/pets.htm


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> No, that IS THE REASON why people are told not to keep them. They're dangerous. Do you really think a person would be told not to keep a hybrid simply because they're destructive? NO.



you're incoherently rambling at this point. they are not dangerous. poor handling will MAKE them dangerous. just like poor handling will make your average street mutt dangerous.

grow up. seriously. lol.



sparky62704 said:


> This is where I got that: http://springwolf.com/wolves/nature/pets.htm




that site is garbage for the most part.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Wolfdogs are not pets... yet your signature says 'pets I will one day have' and you've listed wolfdog.

Why the heck would you want a dog you're afraid of? Makes absolutely no sense.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Maybe because many people who read those sites are idiots who aren't fit to own a hampster, much less a wolf dog? Like I said, have you ACTUALLY TALKED to these people? And again, most of those sites you posted are NOT saying what you think they are. I'm thinking reading comprehension really isn't your forte.


Actually, the people who's sites I read off of are VERY KNOWLEDGEABLE in their field. You act as if I'm reading off what a trapper/hunter wrote. And yes, some of them I have talked to. And please, I'm betting I'm better in reading/writing than you are.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> im beginning to think reading comprehension isn't their forte because we're dealing with some snot nosed kid overreacting and misinterpreting because of the reactionary nature of most teens.


funny, cuz you guys are acting just like me~!


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> And please, I'm betting I'm better in reading/writing than you are.


Well, you certainly have not demonstrated it in this thread.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> ... frankly this is irrelevent to the conversation we were having ... Its some kind of logical fallacy ... i just dont remember which ... where the heck is ryan when i need him


I see you have no answer. And yes, cats were "irrelevent" to the convo, yet somehow someone brought up the pixie bob.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I didn't answer your question because you didn't answer mine. Thank you come again.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I've been following this and not posting but I have to say WTF? I guess you don't like kids?


okay? how would you know?


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

LOL Miranda! You win the internet!!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sparky62704 said:


> Then explain why people are told to not get HC wolfdogs by those experts?
> 
> 
> 
> Because apparently mids only attack little kids.


You just said you want a mid because they only attack little kids. GREAT reason to want a dog, btw.


sparky62704 said:


> okay? how would you know?


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> And where exactly did I say pet? You should know the difference if YOU'RE so smart, but again, reading comrehension, clearly not your forte
> 
> Oh, and it's "if" . "If" you're so smart, not "is". Guess your writing skills need some work as well.


sorry, i'm writing fast, mr. i'm-so-great-at-grammer. if you havent noticed i have a lot of posts to respond to and you have well.. just mainly one.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

a couple of points from Dr Klinghammer, Director of Wolf Park

http://www.wolfpark.org/Images/Education/ArticlesWordDocs/ParkPositionHybrids.pdf

pay SPECIAL ATTENTION to number 4 and number 11.

if you had any reading comprehension, you would be able to see two things from those two points.

4. wolfdogs are by and large..ill treated, poorly kept and poorly handled. and THAT is the reason they attack sometimes.

11. the litigious nature of our society dictates that the Wolf Park Facility err on the side of caution to prevent themselves from getting sued.


seriously. grow up.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> im probably your size. and i don't have to be any more careful around a well bred, well raised and well trained wolfdog than i do a chihuahua.
> 
> 
> an abused, neglected and poorly handled animal is a SLIGHTLY different story. but generally not by much.


sure. and do YOU own wolfdogs? apparently sooo many people here do.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Have you ever thought that if so many people tell you that you are wrong, you are most likely wrong.



sparky62704 said:


> sure. and do YOU own wolfdogs? apparently sooo many people here do.


Actually she has. Argument fail.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> you're incoherently rambling at this point. they are not dangerous. poor handling will MAKE them dangerous. just like poor handling will make your average street mutt dangerous.
> 
> grow up. seriously. lol.
> 
> ...


you need to be more mature. don't tell me to "grow up". what i said was perfectly logical.
and sure, the site is "garbage" once it proves you're wrong.



Laurelin said:


> Wolfdogs are not pets... yet your signature says 'pets I will one day have' and you've listed wolfdog.
> 
> Why the heck would you want a dog you're afraid of? Makes absolutely no sense.


i've already explained this in my other posts.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> sure. and do YOU own wolfdogs? apparently sooo many people here do.


used to. also worked for a carnivore preservation society. now i just have pit bulls. lol. but when i get some land again, im planning on adopting wolfdogs once more.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Well, you certainly have not demonstrated it in this thread.


i don't have to, i'm not writing an essay.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Do you even own like... a normal dog?


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> sorry, i'm writing fast, mr. i'm-so-great-at-grammer. if you havent noticed i have a lot of posts to respond to and you have well.. just mainly one.


Riiight, because you're SO important, that your thread is the ONLY thing that I'm doing at the moment, LOL! I type fast too, and yet, I still manage to use proper spelling, punctuation and grammar. It's not difficult.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> I didn't answer your question because you didn't answer mine. Thank you come again.


okay whatever. state your question again?


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> you need to be more mature. don't tell me to "grow up". what i said was perfectly logical.
> and sure, the site is "garbage" once it proves you're wrong.


it's garbage because it's a bunch of whooha about spirit animals, totems and the very much incorrect pack theory crap that isn't as applicable as most ignorant people think it is. 

and im only talking to you like you talk to everyone else in this thread. disliking that taste of your own medicine are we?


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> You just said you want a mid because they only attack little kids. GREAT reason to want a dog, btw.


yep i hate kids. you guess it. hoooray!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sparky62704 said:


> you need to be more mature. don't tell me to "grow up". what i said was perfectly logical.
> and sure, the site is "garbage" once it proves you're wrong.
> 
> 
> ...


Because they only attack little kids? 

Let me tell you something. If you're afraid your dog is going to attack anyone regardless of breed, you don't need to own that dog. You cannot properly handle an animal you're afraid of.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I asked you if you had ever owned any wolfdogs before because for some reason you are arguing with people who have, which would suggest that they have more experience than you. Also you do not appear to have a dog at all (from your sig.), which would suggest everybody in this thread has more dog experience than you as well. Usually, one takes knowledge from those more experienced than themselves.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> a couple of points from Dr Klinghammer, Director of Wolf Park
> 
> http://www.wolfpark.org/Images/Education/ArticlesWordDocs/ParkPositionHybrids.pdf
> 
> ...


so you're saying, me in my small stature, can go buy a HC wolfdog, or even a wolf pup, take good care of it, and when it gets older it will challenge but not hurt me? Yea right.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)




----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> Have you ever thought that if so many people tell you that you are wrong, you are most likely wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually she has. Argument fail.


yes, so many people telling me i'm wrong ONLY on this thread. everywhere else people (experts and the public alike) would agree with me. and my question about if she's owned hybrids was a real one. 

BURN EPIC FAIL.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> BURN EPIC FAIL.


LOL, hardly.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Look, I brought home a wolf dog from the shelter I work at and she was fine with me in her face, loved my sister's baby, and was generally house trained and nice. She is a mid content, totally blowing your theory:


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I need to go to bed. Work will come early tomorrow... lol


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Actually ... not really a burn at all.... but sure if it makes you feel better.

And hybrids isn't the correct terminology. Wolfdogs is. And she did own a WD. And the public doesn't know diddly. And you dont seem to be getting that we have somebody who is VERY qualified with both wolves and dogs to answer all of these questions. And you don't seem to be reading the sites very well. Reread zim's last post about the points made by the head of wolf park.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> so you're saying, me in my small stature, can go buy a HC wolfdog, or even a wolf pup, take good care of it, and when it gets older it will challenge but not hurt me? Yea right.


its not a question of challenge. challenge is not anywhere near accurate terminology.

and no..not a wolf pup. that's a different story altogether

but if you were to purchase a well bred wolfdog from healthy lines, properly hand raised from the correct age, socialized, provide proper mental stimulation and physical exercise, a good diet, the right kind of containment and a good percentage of your time...yes..you get a wolfdog who is generally a pleasure for it's people to be around.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Wow, TWAB! I have a wolf dog too! Mine's a high content though, so he looks a bit different than yours.

Here he is after an exhausting day of chasing and killing small children:


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> it's garbage because it's a bunch of whooha about spirit animals, totems and the very much incorrect pack theory crap that isn't as applicable as most ignorant people think it is.
> 
> and im only talking to you like you talk to everyone else in this thread. disliking that taste of your own medicine are we?


what "taste of my own medicine"? wow, you did not understand me at all, did you? I was saying that yes, you guys are talking to ME, but i'm talking to ALL of you. 

And that site isn't as accurate as others i went on, but it did tell me how dangerous a mid-content really was. I think i can handle it.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Good evening everyone! This has been a most enlightening read. Entertaining, even. 

I do miss Mainstreme Mike..but Sparky is a close facsimile. Fun!

Sparky, Sparky, Sparky....you are misinformed, extremely opinionated and no, your writing skills are not all that. GrammAR. Though I will give you points for spelling German Shepherd correctly. I guess that should count for something.

I just have to say: You will NOT win this argument. Nope, not going to happen. I knew you were wrong the first time you mentioned 'pack behaviour' with no real idea of what pack behaviour IS or looks like in wolves. You are arguing with people who have experience, both past and present, with both wolves and high content wolf dogs. Those in rescue, who see the best AND the worst of both humans and the canids they save. I dread that you actually want to own a midcontent some day, because anyone who is convinced these animals are killers...well, why would you WANT ONE??? People who get animals they can't handle or misread do end up in the bite statistic papers..and that is THEIR fault, not the fault of the animal.

So, you are the size of a 14 year old and want a large breed dog that only attacks little children. OOOOKAY.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Because they only attack little kids?
> 
> Let me tell you something. If you're afraid your dog is going to attack anyone regardless of breed, you don't need to own that dog. You cannot properly handle an animal you're afraid of.


I can get a wolfdog cuz other people have wolfdogs. The diff in it lies in whether they believe their animal will hurt others or not. What you don't know won't always save you.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Well, see, KM, high contents really vary. Here is my 90% wolf loving a kitten, living in a family home:


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Wow, Steph, they really do! Mine is wolf crossed with English Mastiff. What's yours crossed with? I see yours does well with kittens, but how is he with small children? Mine can't be trusted EVER! I know this, because I read a website on the internet that said this, so it MUST be true.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> what "taste of my own medicine"? wow, you did not understand me at all, did you? I was saying that yes, you guys are talking to ME, but i'm talking to ALL of you.
> 
> And that site isn't as accurate as others i went on, but it did tell me how dangerous a mid-content really was. I think i can handle it.



you're hilarious.


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> I asked you if you had ever owned any wolfdogs before because for some reason you are arguing with people who have, which would suggest that they have more experience than you. Also you do not appear to have a dog at all (from your sig.), which would suggest everybody in this thread has more dog experience than you as well. Usually, one takes knowledge from those more experienced than themselves.


No, I have never owned any wolfdogs or dogs before, but I tend to know more about dogs than other people who do have dogs (people I know in real life). And I'm taking wolfdog info out from others who know a lot about wolfdogs too. What makes you think you guys are the only ones who knows "the truth"?

now answer my question: how many wolfdogs challenge their owners? I would think that being challenged even once is incredibly frightening. People who have talked of the experience say they were trembling and extremely scared.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sparky62704 said:


> *I can get a wolfdog cuz other people have wolfdogs.* The diff in it lies in whether they believe their animal will hurt others or not. What you don't know won't always save you.


Your logic is amazing.

Once again.










I'm probably the only one that's played those games...


----------



## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Look, I brought home a wolf dog from the shelter I work at and she was fine with me in her face, loved my sister's baby, and was generally house trained and nice. She is a mid content, totally blowing your theory:


i'm sure that beagle is part wolf!


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> Actually ... not really a burn at all.... but sure if it makes you feel better.
> 
> And hybrids isn't the correct terminology. Wolfdogs is. And she did own a WD. And the public doesn't know diddly. And you dont seem to be getting that we have somebody who is VERY qualified with both wolves and dogs to answer all of these questions. And you don't seem to be reading the sites very well. Reread zim's last post about the points made by the head of wolf park.


it was a burn. you were trying to embarrass me when the fact was it was a serious question, which you apparently didn't know.
and who are you talking about? someone who owned a wd secretly? what? 
it's a known fact that wds challenge their owners. it's in their BLOOD.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sparky62704 said:


> i'm sure that beagle is part wolf!


Uh, they don't cross with Beagles. You clearly don't know much. That is a mid content wolf dog.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I don't know that statistic and wont pretend to but I can tell you it is probably frightening, but those who know how to deal with it do, and those that don't end up in the potentially dangerous crew. THUS enforcing the point that these dogs need to be taken care of by people who know wtf they are doing, and not your average kid who has never owned a normal dog.

I wasn't trying to embarrass you actually ... I was stopping your argument that I'm sure would have started if she hadn't owned a WD. And if it hadn't begun an argument, I still answered your question.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Oh, tell me about dogs then. I would like to hear what you KNOW about dogs. Dogs in general. You know; body language, social rituals, ritualistic aggression...c'mon, show us what you know! 
You don't HAVE one, but that's okay. 
I am ever so curious.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> No, I have never owned any wolfdogs or dogs before, but I tend to know more about dogs than other people who do have dogs (people I know in real life). And I'm taking wolfdog info out from others who know a lot about wolfdogs too. What makes you think you guys are the only ones who knows "the truth"?
> 
> now answer my question: how many wolfdogs challenge their owners? I would think that being challenged even once is incredibly frightening. People who have talked of the experience say they were trembling and extremely scared.


Shar didn't "challenge" me. She had a neurological problem that caused her lash out without knowing it. it had nothing to do with "challenge" and nothing to do with her being a wolfdog. it had everything to do with her being SICK. 

the word challenge doesn't mean jack squat except in one specific context.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Wow, Steph, they really do! Mine is wolf crossed with English Mastiff. What's yours crossed with? I see yours does well with kittens, but how is he with small children? Mine can't be trusted EVER! I know this, because I read a website on the internet that said this, so it MUST be true.


Mine is actually crossed with a dingo, so really there is no dog in him. I just wanted to see if any one could spot it but you know these experts and all..


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> someone who owned a wd secretly? what?


LOLOLOL!!! Again with the reading comprehension! Read her post again, veeerrry sloooowwwly. LOL


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Mine is actually crossed with a dingo, so really there is no dog in him. I just wanted to see if any one could spot it but you know these experts and all.


Wow! A dingo! You must have had to pay a LOT of money for a cross as rare as that! 

So, do you find wolf/dingo crosses to be more or less aggressive than wolf/dog crosses?


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> its not a question of challenge. challenge is not anywhere near accurate terminology.
> 
> and no..not a wolf pup. that's a different story altogether


Then what's the "correct" term, if it's not "challenge"?

I heard HC wolfdogs are treated like wolves because they and wolves are so closely related and therefore act alike. So your argument failed there.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

This was my old mid content Woofer, couldn't trust him around little kids, but he LOVED his little deer buddy!


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

sparky62704 said:


> Then what's the "correct" term, if it's not "challenge"?
> 
> I *heard* HC wolfdogs are treated like wolves because they and wolves are so closely related and therefore act alike. So your argument failed there.


You have NEVER been around WD .... EVER.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Wow! A dingo! You must have had to pay a LOT of money for a cross as rare as that!
> 
> So, do you find wolf/dingo crosses to be more or less aggressive than wolf/dog crosses?


I breed them myself. They're not aggressive at all, but I live in the wild with them not as pets.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

sparky62704 said:


> Then what's the "correct" term, if it's not "challenge"?
> 
> I heard HC wolfdogs are treated like wolves because they and wolves are so closely related and therefore act alike. So your argument failed there.



which indicates you have absolutely no comprehension of genetics. and you REALLY don't want to get into it with me there.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I really doubt someone with no hands on experience has more knowledge than someone that owns and lives with wolves. Really there is only so far reading can take you.










No, I will not stop being a nerd!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I breed them myself. They're not aggressive at all, but I live in the wild with them not as pets.


Oh wow! Can I get a pup from your next litter? I bet one of those would go GREAT with my high content! I live in the wild too actually, since high contents are SOOOO dangerous, they can't be anywhere within miles of civilization, or they'll break out and savage everyone they come across!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

regarding your complete bastardization of the word "challenge"

all animal behavior is context specific and can only be interpreted within the specific context of occurrence. there is only one context that i know of where challenge is appropriate. and it relates to animals that are poorly raised and poorly socialized.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Kuma'sMom said:


> since high contents are SOOOO dangerous, they can't be anywhere within miles of civilization, or they'll break out and savage everyone they come across!


I heard that somewhere too


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Cracker said:


> Good evening everyone! This has been a most enlightening read. Entertaining, even.
> 
> I do miss Mainstreme Mike..but Sparky is a close facsimile. Fun!
> 
> ...


Yea yea my grammer skills this and my grammar skills that. I DON'T CARE. Not school? den idc!

Too bad, i do know about wolf pack structures.  
And I AM getting my info from somewhere aren't I? Yesh, you guessed it. From others who own wolfdogs and study their behavior. I'm sure they're ALL WRONG and only YOU PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD are right! Wow, maby you guys should write a book. See if the universities will accept it.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I heard that somewhere too


It was on the internet, so it HAS to be true!


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

It's been a while since I've laughed this hard!


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sparky62704 said:


> No, I have never owned any wolfdogs or dogs before, but I tend to know more about dogs than other people who do have dogs (people I know in real life). And I'm taking wolfdog info out from others who know a lot about wolfdogs too. What makes you think you guys are the only ones who knows "the truth"?
> 
> now answer my question: how many wolfdogs challenge their owners? I would think that being challenged even once is incredibly frightening. People who have talked of the experience say they were trembling and extremely scared.





sparky62704 said:


> Yea yea my grammer skills this and my grammar skills that. I DON'T CARE. Not school? den idc!
> 
> Too bad, i do know about wolf pack structures.
> And I AM getting my info from somewhere aren't I? Yesh, you guessed it. From others who own wolfdogs and study their behavior. I'm sure they're ALL WRONG and only YOU PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD are right! Wow, maby you guys should write a book. See if the universities will accept it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Tofu_pup said:


> It's been a while since I've laughed this hard!


iknowright?!?!? this kid's ignorant posturing is a total stitch. and TWaB is just making me lurve her soooo much


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> I don't know that statistic and wont pretend to but I can tell you it is probably frightening, but those who know how to deal with it do, and those that don't end up in the potentially dangerous crew. THUS enforcing the point that these dogs need to be taken care of by people who know wtf they are doing, and not your average kid who has never owned a normal dog.


okay then, we're on the same page.



Cracker said:


> Oh, tell me about dogs then. I would like to hear what you KNOW about dogs. Dogs in general. You know; body language, social rituals, ritualistic aggression...c'mon, show us what you know!
> You don't HAVE one, but that's okay.
> I am ever so curious.


I know too much to say it all. No joke, i wouldn't know where to start.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> okay then, we're on the same page.


Nope, not even close. Again, faulty reading comprehension skills are failing you.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sparky62704 said:


> okay then, we're on the same page.
> 
> 
> 
> I know too much to say it all. No joke, i wouldn't know where to start.


Darn convenient.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

No we aren't actually. You are horribly misinformed if you believe all HC WDs are going to automatically kill children and challenge their owners. I can tell you that's not the case at all


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

i gtg gettin late.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

How bout that


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> i gtg gettin late.


Past your bedtime?


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

What is this I don't even.

The Star Fox references are making my day Laurelin.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

nekomi said:


> What is this I don't even.
> 
> The Star Fox references are making my day Laurelin.


I am glad someone other than me can appreciate them!

just remember:


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Let's start with resource guarding: dominance or anxiety? Normal behaviour or aberrant behaviour? 
Next let's look at developmental periods in dogs, what do you know of these?
What does a natural dog greeting look like?
What are calming signals?
There, now you know where to start.

Oh no, you are going to bed? Sigh. That's no fun.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> iknowright?!?!? this kid's ignorant posturing is a total stitch. and TWaB is just making me lurve her soooo much


Pssht! She's just looking for excuses to post pictures.

I've learned so much. I can't wait to school my professors on the truth about animal behavior.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Let's start with resource guarding: dominance or anxiety? Normal behaviour or aberrant behaviour?
> Next let's look at developmental periods in dogs, what do you know of these?
> What does a natural dog greeting look like?
> What are calming signals?
> There, now you know where to start.


Using big words there, Cracker, you might have to explain them for Sparky. We know his reading comprehension isn't all that great after all.



> Pssht! She's just looking for excuses to post pictures.


My pictures get no love? Sigh, that's alright, TWAB was first.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)




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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Tofu_pup said:


> Pssht! She's just looking for excuses to post pictures.
> 
> I've learned so much. I can't wait to school my professors on the truth about animal behavior.



yep..mixing domestic and wild animals is ALWAYS DANGEROUS. it was such an epiphany. lol


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

^^ LOL Miranda!


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> My pictures get no love? Sigh, that's alright, TWAB was first.


I was so frightened by your wolf hybrid that I involuntarily covered my eyes. It was just too much!!


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)




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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Tofu_pup said:


> I was so frightened by your wolf hybrid that I involuntarily covered my eyes. It was just too much!!


it was UNSPEAKABLE!!!! 

that's why i didn't mention it.



*pix were awesome btw*


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I was so frightened by your wolf hybrid that I involuntarily covered my eyes. It was just too much!!


The high or mid content? I have to admit, the high content IS pretty terrifying. I have to lock him up in a triple fenced, titanium electric cage every night, just so I can sleep without worrying about him killing me in my sleep!



> it was UNSPEAKABLE!!!!
> 
> that's why i didn't mention it.


Ahhh, yes, of course, I'm sorry Zim, how insensitive of me!


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> yep..mixing domestic and wild animals is ALWAYS DANGEROUS. it was such an epiphany. lol


I've already made arrangement to send my liger back to the breeder.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> The high or mid content? I have to admit, the high content IS pretty terrifying. I have to lock him up in a triple fenced, titanium electric cage every night, just so I can sleep without worrying about him killing me in my sleep!


Both! Good thing my mom is a therapist so I can get the years of therapy that I now NEED!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I've already made arrangement to send my liger back to the breeder.


Really? I've just ordered my very first Ligon from the breeder! I'm very confident that I can keep it's vicious, man-eating tendencies under control, even though I've never even owned a house cat. I already know way more than people who do own cats, and I've read all kinds of stuff on the internet, so I know I'm ready.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Miranda16 said:


>


lookit teh faisbook.

XDXDXDXDXDXD

<3


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Both! Good thing my mom is a therapist so I can get the years of therapy that I now NEED!


I'm so sorry Tofu, that was so insensitive of me, I'll refrain from posting any more pics of my wolf dogs. How do you feel about Ligons, is okay to post those, or will those traumatize you as well?


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Really? I've just ordered my very first Ligon from the breeder! I'm very confident that I can keep it's vicious, man-eating tendencies under control, even though I've never even owned a house cat. I already know way more than people who do own cats, and I've read all kinds of stuff on the internet, so I know I'm ready.


You'll need:
1. A squirt bottle. Because they are so big it's best to just get a super soaker.
2. A litter box is a must. I bought mine at Toys R Us. It's shaped like a turtle.
You're good to go!


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> You'll need:
> 1. A squirt bottle. Because they are so big it's best to just get a super soaker.
> 2. A litter box is a must. I bought mine at Toys R Us. It's shaped like a turtle.
> You're good to go!


Oh good, THANK YOU! I had bought a regular sized squirt bottle, but you're right, much better to upgrade to the super soaker. I also bought a super sized no pull harness, so I can take it for walks without it killing people. Do you take your Liger for walks? What do you like to feed your Liger?


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I'm so sorry Tofu, that was so insensitive of me, I'll refrain from posting any more pics of my wolf dogs. How do you feel about Ligons, is okay to post those, or will those traumatize you as well?


Well Sparky never schooled us on those(it is a school night for those young folks) so a few pictures wouldn't hurt.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Kuma'sMom said:


> What do you like to feed your Liger?


Say bye bye to your appendages...


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Well Sparky never schooled us on those(it is a school night for those young folks) so a few pictures wouldn't hurt.


Fair enough. Well, first of all, I did make (gasp) a slight typo, it's TIGON, not Ligon, and they're also a Tiger/Lion cross, but with Tigons, the father is the Lion and the mother a Tigress. Liger's are the other way around. Tigon's are way more rare than Liger's because it's harder to breed them, so my Tigon is going to cost loads of money, but it's worth it, because they're so rare. I'll be the only one to have one in my area. EVERYONE has Liger's here. 

This is the little Tigon that I'm getting:









Isn't she precious? She's extra rare, even for a Tigon, because they used a white Tigress for the cross.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Say bye bye to your appendages...


Hmmm, can't I just feed her other people's appendages? I figured I could lure traveling sales men, tax men, people like that who no one likes anyway into her cage. Would that work?


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## The_Monstors (Oct 1, 2010)

Kuma's Mom- I think we have a serious pug wolf issue. Should I be worried that my boy started looking like this when the full moon is out? Also I have a black pug wolf, should I worry more about her? She is really mouthy and you know what people say about black dogs being more sinister....She also is wide jawed so she probably is a pit bull with a lock jaw too. I read about that on the Australian news so it must be true and total reason to ban them.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Oh yes, Monstor, you have to really watch those wolf/Pug crosses, ESPECIALLY the black ones! They're the worst! And the wolf/Pug/Pit crosses are the worst of all! You want to make sure you have those locked up super tight at night if you want to wake up in the morning!


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Kuma's mom...I hate to break it to ya but...you wasted your money. That sad specimen is obviously just a run of the mill tiger.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> Kuma's mom...I hate to break it to ya but...you wasted your money. That sad specimen is obviously just a run of the mill tiger.


What?? Nooooo!!! I was told she was a super rare Tigon by a Tiger and Tigon scientist on the internet! It HAS to be true if they say so, doesn't it?


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## The_Monstors (Oct 1, 2010)

There. I tranquilized it for bedtime just to be safe. I'm scared of them, I know they're dangerous but I own them because other people own them too.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Wow, I miss out one day and look at all the laughs I've missed! 
Seriously though, it was a funny, but nevertheless one huge pointless 'discussion' that lasted (and wasted) about 10 pages. 



sparky62704 said:


> This is where I got that: http://springwolf.com/wolves/nature/pets.htm





sparky62704 said:


> the site is "garbage" once it proves you're wrong.


I like to read about other people's opinions, that's why I spend time on forums in the first place, but I have trouble digesting this Sparky person's ideas. This is the only link I clicked but I abandoned the read after reading the first few sentences. 

_"Duke was a mixed breed of Alaskan Husky and Belgian Shepherd. Both of these AKC breeds have a close history to the wolf, ..."_

A Belgian Groenendael, close history to the wolf? Alaskan Husky, an AKC breed? Really? 
When reading this information, I'd scratch myself behind my ears and think: is the info on this website trustworthy? The answer would be: no. 
I wonder if the rest of those links are just as trustworthy, and I wonder whether Sparky's opinions that are derived from these sites are too. 

Anyhow, I haven't seen topic starter Zach around for a while which is probably because of the direction this thread has been heading these last 10 pages. I hope he has gotten the info he wanted about wolfdogs.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Well, I go to bed for a few hours and wake up to this pearl of a thread. Thank you everybody for making my morning much more enjoyable. And to Sparky:

Owning an animal just because you can is a recipe for disaster, specially when you are misinformed and scared of it. You will find, as you grow up, that wanting to own anything just because it's rare and makes people take a double turn is generally a bad idea, and this feeling of wanting to be different at any price will pass. 

As far as WD challenging their owners, I own run-of-the-mill dogs, and they "challenge" me daily: they challenge my patience, my knowledge, my predictive skills and my intelligence. I do not and never will own a wolfdog, despite being quite well-learned in dog behaviour. Why? Because I am not the right owner for one. I hope you will, one day, realize that sometimes it's better to admire from afar what you find beautiful than to take it home and screw it up because of ignorance.

As a last point, grammAr is important: your writing skills is all we have, as readers over the internet, to evaluate the type of person you are. Poor writing skills (as well as the use of very mature language such as EPIC BURN FAIL) only make you come across as a poorly educated petulant child. If you want to be taken seriously, learning to write properly is the first step.


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## MooWolf (May 3, 2010)

This thread was just brought to my attention, and I must agree with Nek and Cindy. I am the owner of Texx-Wolf-Tails, one of the "reference" site. I do not use the word "pet" freely for HC wolfdogs, like a few others have stated. I prefer the term "companion."

Either way, proper breeding and responsible ownership is the key to owning ANY animal. IMO, it is ideal for HC's to be owned by someone with wolf/previous HC experience (such as from working at a sanctuary/rescue to gain experience). However, I feel that someone that is serious about handling and learning these animals can make good 1st time owners. I had no previous experience with wolfdogs before I rescued my 1st- a mid content named Monty. However, I was serious about learning about these animals- was and still am very sensitive to canine behavior and know MY animals. I am particularly careful around animals that are not mine (this may have come from working in the vet/boarding field for the past 9 years)!

I do not own any HC's right now. All of my higher content animals have been fosters. I do own 1 low and 2 mid contents, all rescues as well.

I think when talking about WD's... you have to be careful about how you word things. Obviously, the few of us here that are WD owners, hate it when people go on about how they are "dangeous, unpredictable wild animals"...but as WD's owners, should make it clear that they still can be difficult animals to own and no, they are not for everyone. I think a lot of people misinterpret what is said are leave out the crucial details that help it make sense! They only hear what they want to hear (or read, lol).



If anyone did read my website and has any questions or issues about it, please let me know so that I can address them to the best of my abilities.


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## Cindy23323 (Mar 31, 2010)

sparky62704 said:


> yes, so many people telling me i'm wrong ONLY on this thread. everywhere else people (experts and the public alike) would agree with me. and my question about if she's owned hybrids was a real one.
> 
> BURN EPIC FAIL.


You are wrong, your picking on one breed, what one animal may have done. Thats like saying ex. one white male goes out and kills someone, does that make all white males evil? And that they eventually one day will kill someone?

And you tell lie after lie, i've counted numberous times where you stated that i said they make good family pets, will you please point out where exactly i said that. I think i actually even stated that they were quite the handful, but that neither of my animals have ever done any of the things you are accussing them of.


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## hippiechicmom3 (Oct 7, 2011)

I would like to point out also, that in most of these cases where people claim a WD has harmed someone, the animal in question is actually a low/no content. WD's are being seriously misrepresented. This is the fault of irresponsible breeders who sell these no/lows mixed with bladly bred GSD's, huskies, and mals. Also, in most cases the cause of the "attack" is HUMAN error. WD's require experienced owners who know what they are dealing with. How is it the animal's fault if they fall into the wrong hands?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> So why do you want to get a mid-content wolfdog some day if they're so dangerous?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and Pixie-Bobs, if they have any bobcat blood at all (it's debatable), it's long gone. They're fully domesticated cats, not considered hybrids like Savannahs or Bengals. Some statements here made it sound like some people think they're hybrids.


I know what they are, as I've owned (and will again own) them and they still accept 'Legend cats" into the breeding program (I live 5 miles from Carol Anne Brewer, the breed founder and know her) I know of many legend cats that have the same traits personality wise of an F1 Hybrid Bengal or Savannah cats. They aren't cats for the average cat owner.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

sparky62704 said:


> Not as dangerous, apparently, as wolfdogs, or else there wouldn't be so many experts frightened of their mind when they hear someone's adopted a wolfdog.


No offense intended, but even if you dismiss the idea of getting a wolfdog and go with a GSD, don't expect the general public to fawn all over your beautiful animal. Plenty of experts in the dog business aren't exactly fond of GSD's, either.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> No offense intended, but even if you dismiss the idea of getting a wolfdog and go with a GSD, don't expect the general public to fawn all over your beautiful animal. Plenty of experts in the dog business aren't exactly fond of GSD's, either.


Or Dobermans or Pit Bulls or, or ,or...

The fact is any dog of any breed or mix CAN hurt someone, the chances are far higher with poor breeding and socialization as such dogs are more prone to anxiety/fear/Medical issues (the top causes of aggression). Certain breeds get a bad rap because of the media hype and mistaken identity, if it has long fur, pointy ears and a mask type face it's OFTEN misidentified as a Wolfdog, if it's more bully type it gets misidentified as a Pit Bull, black and sleek as a dobe. I've seen it too many times.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the delightful read. It made my lunch very enjoyable! And I regularly ascribe to what Meshkanet said here:

_"As far as WD challenging their owners, I own run-of-the-mill dogs, and they "challenge" me daily: they challenge my patience, my knowledge, my predictive skills and my intelligence. I do not and never will own a wolfdog, despite being quite well-learned in dog behaviour. Why? Because I am not the right owner for one. I hope you will, one day, realize that sometimes *it's better to admire from afar what you find beautiful than to take it home and screw it up because of ignorance.*"_

I am not the right owner for a lot of dogs and you know what...it's why I don't have any of them!!! Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> Thanks everyone for the delightful read. It made my lunch very enjoyable! And I regularly ascribe to what Meshkanet said here:
> 
> _"As far as WD challenging their owners, I own run-of-the-mill dogs, and they "challenge" me daily: they challenge my patience, my knowledge, my predictive skills and my intelligence. I do not and never will own a wolfdog, despite being quite well-learned in dog behaviour. Why? Because I am not the right owner for one. I hope you will, one day, realize that sometimes *it's better to admire from afar what you find beautiful than to take it home and screw it up because of ignorance.*"_
> 
> I am not the right owner for a lot of dogs and you know what...it's why I don't have any of them!!! Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


I was going to reference that quote as well. That was very well put (and easy - for most - to understand)

While I would LOVE to be able to own one of those beautiful animals, I am not physically, mentally, financially or otherwise able to properly care for one - which would only ruin the poor animal's life.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

BellaPup said:


> I was going to reference that quote as well. That was very well put (and easy - for most - to understand)
> 
> While I would LOVE to be able to own one of those beautiful animals, I am not physically, mentally, financially or otherwise able to properly care for one - which would only ruin the poor animal's life.


I would love to own a race horse. They're sleek, beautiful, a sight to see while they're moving. However, me owning a race horse would be a complete and utter disaster. We had a gorgeous palamino horse for a short while, who was hot blooded and energetic, not like our "pet" horse who was happy to amble around the pasture and doze in the sun. We took this horse because the woman we bought him from was (literally) scared of him, and he was getting away with bratty behaviors that could easily turn dangerous when you're dealing with 1200 pounds of flight animal. He was worked, rode, worked some more, rode some more, until we were able to lease him to an older teenager with plenty of horse experience, she kept him, showed him, got points, etc. We certainly weren't the best owners for this particular horse, which is why we opted to send him somewhere where he could get what he needed AND DESERVED. 
Wolfdog, German Shepherd, Savannah Cat, Tennessee Walker...they all have basic instincts that could be a complete disaster in the wrong hands. The last thing on the planet I want is a hot blooded horse, but the next guy has the perfect set up and the time needed to properly care for such a horse so it doesn't turn into a dangerous, pent up ball of nervous energy. Wolfdogs might not be the ideal "family dog" for the man, wife, 3 kids living in the suburbs, but honestly, a German Shepherd probably isn't either.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Wolfdog, German Shepherd, Savannah Cat, Tennessee Walker...they all have basic instincts that could be a complete disaster in the wrong hands. The last thing on the planet I want is a hot blooded horse, but the next guy has the perfect set up and the time needed to properly care for such a horse so it doesn't turn into a dangerous, pent up ball of nervous energy. Wolfdogs might not be the ideal "family dog" for the man, wife, 3 kids living in the suburbs, but honestly, a German Shepherd probably isn't either.


I have been in love with the GSD all my life...but I know that would be a very bad choice. My GSD/Lab mix gives me a run for my money as it is! =)~ I just don't have the right personality etc....I _know_ I don't. As soon as other people - like Sparky - realize the same thing, the animals in this world will be much safer. 

Horses can be soooooo much more dangerous, I think! LOL! Especially a huge, hyper, nippy, jumpy, nervous racing horse - yikes! I was taught dressage on an ex-race horse - DeMyster - that guy scared the bejesus outta me....but he was an AWESOME dancer!


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

nekomi said:


> I don't think it matters what CONTENT of wolfdog we're talking, so much as how WELL-BRED and WELL-RAISED the animals are that determines safety. As an example, a HC that has been selectively bred for sound temperament, and brought up in a consistent, loving environment (like Cindy's!  ) is going to be much safer to handle than a LC that was poorly bred with no thought to temperament, and raised incorrectly, abused or neglected. As usual, it all comes down to the breeder and owner doing their respective jobs properly.


Nekomi, from your older posts I thought you believed breeding wolfdogs was unethical. Rescuing, great; intentionally creating them for people to buy, not so much. Have you changed your mind, or did you always feel this way?

I don't believe it's right to breed wolfdogs. Like, ever. I think it's unjustifiable. There are too few suitable homes and too many possible problems. I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that temperament -- which is far too complex for geneticists to even get a handle on yet -- can be completely controlled for by breeders, particularly with mixes/hybrids.

Whenever I see films of wolfdogs I'm struck by the sense that I'm seeing an animal torn between worlds, unable to be a wolf and unable to be a dog. Any environment we create for them is bound to be a compromise because their very natures are compromised. How can we justify doing this to animals just because it suits our own desires?

Nekomi, what do you believe is a morally sound reason for breeding wolfdogs? I'm assuming, of course, that you believe intentional breeding of animals should be for a purpose.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

begemot said:


> Nekomi, from your older posts I thought you believed breeding wolfdogs was unethical. Rescuing, great; intentionally creating them for people to buy, not so much. Have you changed your mind, or did you always feel this way?
> 
> I don't believe it's right to breed wolfdogs. Like, ever. I think it's unjustifiable. There are too few suitable homes and too many possible problems. I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that temperament -- which is far too complex for geneticists to even get a handle on yet -- can be completely controlled for by breeders, particularly with mixes/hybrids.
> 
> ...


I can't answer for Nekomi, but I will say I'm not exactly FOR breeding mixed breeds like doodles, etc. However, it can be done somewhat ethically by choosing sane, stable parents with good health (and the testing to back it up). Would I purchase such a mix? Probably not. But if it's going to be done (and there are people out there who are going to do it, regardless of if we like it or not), I'd prefer to see some common sense steps taken. If someone is going to breed wolfdogs, I don't have to like it, nor does anyone else, but if they want to, they're going to. Whether or not any thought at all goes into said breeding is another story, kwim?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well I didn't stay up late enough for all the fun, but this:



The_Monstors said:


>


almost made me pee laughing.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

....well:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::help::help:
this thread is not what I was looking for


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

I go to work, come home, sleep and miss all of this. It was still a funny read over my coffee this evening before work



ZachAttackandWilbur said:


> ....well:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::help::help:
> this thread is not what I was looking for


Zach - why don't you post a question or observation, etc to get the thread going back the direction you were hoping for now that everything has settled on the thread.


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## ZachAttackandWilbur (Aug 31, 2011)

Ok lol that was overkill on frusration I found the 10 pages amusing this morning and it did lighten my day, I loved seeing your guys "wolfdog mixes" ; ). Haha but please go back to original topic on info on wolfdogs and Im throwing gsds in here to because Im very intrested about them. Sparky please DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD ANYMORE you and just seriously sparking debate. Thanks everyone,Zach


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I would love to own a race horse. They're sleek, beautiful, a sight to see while they're moving. However, me owning a race horse would be a complete and utter disaster. We had a gorgeous palamino horse for a short while, who was hot blooded and energetic, not like our "pet" horse who was happy to amble around the pasture and doze in the sun. We took this horse because the woman we bought him from was (literally) scared of him, and he was getting away with bratty behaviors that could easily turn dangerous when you're dealing with 1200 pounds of flight animal. He was worked, rode, worked some more, rode some more, until we were able to lease him to an older teenager with plenty of horse experience, she kept him, showed him, got points, etc. We certainly weren't the best owners for this particular horse, which is why we opted to send him somewhere where he could get what he needed AND DESERVED.
> Wolfdog, German Shepherd, Savannah Cat, Tennessee Walker...they all have basic instincts that could be a complete disaster in the wrong hands. The last thing on the planet I want is a hot blooded horse, but the next guy has the perfect set up and the time needed to properly care for such a horse so it doesn't turn into a dangerous, pent up ball of nervous energy. Wolfdogs might not be the ideal "family dog" for the man, wife, 3 kids living in the suburbs, but honestly, a German Shepherd probably isn't either.


What's the deal with Tennessee Walkers? ol 

Yeah I know... we have Walkers but I'm really not as familiar with horse (why they're not my responsibility). Haven't really noticed too much of a difference between the QH/Thoroughbred I used to ride except the gaiting takes a bit of getting used to. Very smooth ride though. I will say Renegade is a bit of a pain (although Rhonda would say Mia is more of a pain)


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

ZachAttackandWilbur said:


> Sparky please DO NOT POST IN THIS THREAD ANYMORE you and just seriously sparking debate. Thanks everyone,Zach


Sparky has apparently been banned so it shouldn't be a problem anymore.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Zach, sparky has been banned, so nonworries there.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> Nekomi, from your older posts I thought you believed breeding wolfdogs was unethical. Rescuing, great; intentionally creating them for people to buy, not so much. Have you changed your mind, or did you always feel this way?


My views on this topic have evolved somewhat. I still feel that in 99% of cases breeding wolfdogs is HIGHLY unethical. However, in my time in rescue I've also come to know some responsible breeders - a VERY small handful in the entire United States - that I trust, admire and respect wholeheartedly. There are only a tiny, minute handful of people in the USA that I believe have the correct reasons, proper experience and knowledge, and commitment to breed them responsibly. I'm serious and being completely literal when I say I can count them on one hand.

So what do I mean when I say "breed them responsibly"? They breed for health, they breed for temperament (in all cases I'm thinking of, the breeders have line-bred for temperament for decades). They stand behind their pups and their pups NEVER end up in rescue because they take them back. They are honest, upfront and clear with their buyers, and only sell to approved, experienced individuals and facilities. They have insanely long, fully enforcable buyer's contracts that would leave all but the most committed owners shaking in their boots.



> I don't believe it's right to breed wolfdogs. Like, ever. I think it's unjustifiable. There are too few suitable homes and too many possible problems.


I used to feel exactly this way, but my experiences in rescue have actually taught me to think otherwise. It is too much to get into here, but it would be a long, long discussion on supply vs. demand and how it relates to the different content ranges (low contents, mids and highs). If you want me to PM you and have a discussion on this, I would be more than happy to!  It's a view that I have gradually come to hold after watching over the years WHERE the animals in rescue are coming from, where they are going to, and how their rescues are handled on the part of sanctuaries and private adopters. It has been eye-opening.

To reiterate, I have no problem with a person who has been line-breeding wolfdogs for years, breeding for health and temperament, standing behind the pups they produce, having strict requirements for their buyers and promoting them only to responsible people.

I know you guys might say, "Well, if so-and-so is qualified to own a wolfdog, why can't they just go rescue one? The breeder's pup is taking away the spot that could have been used for the rescue wolfdog." Well, here's the problem - comparing what you'd get from one of the responsible breeders, and what you'd get through a rescue, is like comparing apples and oranges. 99% of what's available in rescue is low and mid contents of unknown histories. If someone wants an upper-mid or high content animal, they rarely come into rescue, and when they do, they are usually not available for very long, or worse, they are so badly damaged from improper treatment that they are only suitable for a sanctuary setting. So in that case I think it's ethical for responsible breeders to fill the gap with their sound-tempered, healthy animals for responsible, experienced people to enjoy sharing their life with. Does that make sense?



> I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that temperament -- which is far too complex for geneticists to even get a handle on yet -- can be completely controlled for by breeders, particularly with mixes/hybrids.


Temperament can never be COMPLETELY CONTROLLED, but it can be RELIABLY PREDICTED and made consistent through careful selective breeding. 

Also, it would be totally and utterly incorrect to call the animals I'm talking about here, "mixes". They are not first-generation or even second or third generation mixes of ANYTHING. No one is adding Husky here, and Malamute there, or a little more wolf there as they breed. They are line-breeding and carefully planning their pairings, wolfdog-to-wolfdog all the way down the bloodline for over 20 years. IMO, at this point they have essentially created a true "wolf-DOG" that breeds extremely true to type, and true to temperament.

IMO and IME, it makes no difference whether we're talking "just dogs" or wolfdogs, temperament can be influenced through years and years of planned breeding. I have seen this firsthand and I can tell you with certainty that there IS a difference, a marked difference in fact, between the animals produced by responsible vs. unethical breeders. You would be amazed; they have achieved incredible things with their bloodlines and I respect that wholeheartedly.

At the end of the day, I couldn't get over this contradiction in my thinking:

A. There are too many wolfdogs being bred and not enough qualified homes. Hundreds are euthanized in shelters every year.
B. Wolfdogs should never be bred, and to do so is inherently unethical.

A. There are too many domestic dogs being bred and not enough qualified homes. Thousands are euthanized in shelters daily.
B. But I'm still OK with responsible people breeding dogs.

Of course the issue is more complex than that, and I know I'm oversimplifying. I'd be happy to talk about this further in PM if you'd like.



> Whenever I see films of wolfdogs I'm struck by the sense that I'm seeing an animal torn between worlds, unable to be a wolf and unable to be a dog.


I don't think this is the case, actually. I don't see wolfdogs as conflicted animals, not at all. I have seen INDIVIDUAL wolfdogs that were conflicted but it wasn't because they were wolfdogs, IMO. In every case it was due to bad treatment, neglect and outright abuse. I have, on the other hand, met LOTS of happy, healthy wolfdogs who were thriving in an environment dedicated to their well-being. 

There is no such thing as a wolfdog in the wild, so how can living in captivity be a compromise for that animal? For all the ways that wolves and wolfdogs are similar, a wolfdog is still fundamentally, deeply different from a wild wolf in many ways. 



> Any environment we create for them is bound to be a compromise because their very natures are compromised. How can we justify doing this to animals just because it suits our own desires?


I actually don't believe their natures are compromised. If I DID believe that, I would be unable to even rescue them, because I would be horrified each day as I saw them living their miserable lives on my property. If this was truly, truly the case, I would probably advocate for their euthanasia rather than for them to live out their lives in captivity. 

And please understand that I agree with you 100%, there is NO EXCUSE for destroying, minimizing, or downgrading an animals' quality of life in order to suit our own desires. EVER. I firmly believe that and yet I am still able to house and enjoy my wolfdogs, because I *know* that they are not wanting for anything. They are able to express their personalities without fear of conforming to the standards we set for dogs, enjoy challenges each day in the form of mental stimulation and enrichment, have constructive outlets for their behaviors, and able to live in a pack setting with others like them. 



> Nekomi, what do you believe is a morally sound reason for breeding wolfdogs? I'm assuming, of course, that you believe intentional breeding of animals should be for a purpose.


First off, I want to reiterate that wolfdogs, in 99% of cases, are not the offspring of a pure wolf and pure dog. I want to be clear on that first as many people misunderstand this. The vast majority have been wolfdog-to-wolfdog (or wolfdog-to-dog) breedings for generations, whether done responsibly and ethically, or done with complete and utter stupidity and selfishness. So please, readers of this thread, don't get the misinformed idea that breeding these animals means that some bozo is going out and mating a wolf to a dog for kicks. It's just not the case.

Back to topic. I absolutely believe that intentional breeding of animals should be for a purpose. I mean, you're talking to an owner of Alaskan Huskies here.  

And I believe that wolfdogs can be bred for a purpose too. Ambassadorship, education, canine advocacy (i.e., to raise awareness of wild wolves and their plight), filmmaking and media, and yes, even companionship, I believe are valid reasons for a responsible person to breed them. My animals fulfill many of these functions (aside from filmmaking and media of course). They are ambassadors for wolves and wolfdogs in my community by modeling responsible canine ownership to others. They educate people in my community by accompanying me in public and providing opportunities to show that wolfdogs are not the vicious man-eaters they are made out to be. They advocate for wild canines by raising awareness and opportunities for conversation about wilderness, the role of predators and specifically, the role of wolves in a healthy ecosystem. 

And finally, I simply, deeply enjoy sharing my lives with my wolfdogs. It is different than my dogs and something that a domestic dog breed would never be able to replicate - and I don't mean that because of some romantic notion I have about my animals being "half wild". I mean it because my wolfdogs are just different. They use their behaviors in different contexts, in different intensities, and with different motivations than domestic dogs. They have nuances of behavior and personality that I have never seen in a domestic dog. If my animals are happy, healthy, well-kept and THRIVING in their environment, I see no reason to be ashamed of the fact that I thoroughly enjoy sharing my life with them, and hope to continue to share my life with wolfdogs in the future. To be perfectly honest, I would bet money that my wolfdogs enjoy sharing their lives with me too.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Beautiful post!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Beautiful post!


Agreed! 
Nekomi, if you speak as clearly and as eloquently in real life then I have no doubt that you and your pack are excellent ambassadors for wolves/wolfdogs/dogs and responsible ownership across the board.


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## Sybille (Oct 5, 2011)

Wow! What a long thread, unfortunately I don't have the time to read every single post ;-) I happen to live in the Czech Republic and am lucky enough to have met several of the breed the OP mentioned. As for resources here a good article http://www.petsbypets.com/dog-breeds/czechoslovakian-wolfdog.htm (with a gorgeous photo!) explaining how and why this breed was originally created and what to expect in terms of training difficulty. Another great source of information is http://www.wolfdog.org/ despite the name it is mostly dedicated to the CzechSlovak Wolfdog, not so much to others also.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

The_Monstors said:


> Kuma's Mom- I think we have a serious pug wolf issue. Should I be worried that my boy started looking like this when the full moon is out? Also I have a black pug wolf, should I worry more about her? She is really mouthy and you know what people say about black dogs being more sinister....She also is wide jawed so she probably is a pit bull with a lock jaw too. I read about that on the Australian news so it must be true and total reason to ban them.


omg, that has me laughing!


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

^^ I find hilarious that that pic found it's way into this thread, because I was actually planning on making a costume like that for Kuma for Halloween, LOL!!


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## MooWolf (May 3, 2010)

Nekomi, 

Amen! That was very well said, better then what I could've done! <3 :clap2:


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

Nekomi, thank you for giving me such a detailed response! I really appreciate that you took the time to explain your views like that. I do think I have a better idea of where you're coming from now.

There are a couple things I'm wondering about.



nekomi said:


> There are only a tiny, minute handful of people in the USA that I believe have the correct reasons, proper experience and knowledge, and commitment to breed them responsibly. I'm serious and being completely literal when I say I can count them on one hand.


It seems to me that if they are so vastly in the minority, talking about them as if they are more commonplace is risky. I imagine that part of it is that you want the public to realize that wolfdogs aren't always dangerous, and aren't always bred foolishly, but do you worry that you might give people the wrong impression? If someone reading this thread just saw the earlier comments, they wouldn't know how exceptional these breeders are.

I guess I'm imagining that if it were me, and I truly believed that these few breeders were working responsibly but I also knew that the vast majority of breeders of wolfdogs were leaving a trail of tragedy in their wake.... I wouldn't even want to talk about the good few, lest people not deeply involved in the community and aware of all the issues get the wrong impression.



> They are line-breeding and carefully planning their pairings, wolfdog-to-wolfdog all the way down the bloodline for over 20 years. IMO, at this point they have essentially created a true "wolf-DOG" that breeds extremely true to type, and true to temperament.


I guess this is a whole separate issue -- and not necessarily one that needs to be addressed here -- but while this does give me a better sense of how they can control more for temperament, it raises new problems in my mind. I don't think linebreeding is ethically (or even pragmatically) sound.



> There is no such thing as a wolfdog in the wild, so how can living in captivity be a compromise for that animal? For all the ways that wolves and wolfdogs are similar, a wolfdog is still fundamentally, deeply different from a wild wolf in many ways.


Oh, I didn't mean that they should live in the wild. I meant that they can't have either -- the wild or regular doggy domestication. From what I've read and seen (not in person), it seems like they are generally unsuited to both, and thus in limbo (ADalla's word).



> And I believe that wolfdogs can be bred for a purpose too. Ambassadorship, education, canine advocacy (i.e., to raise awareness of wild wolves and their plight), filmmaking and media, and yes, even companionship, I believe are valid reasons for a responsible person to breed them. My animals fulfill many of these functions (aside from filmmaking and media of course). They are ambassadors for wolves and wolfdogs in my community by modeling responsible canine ownership to others. They educate people in my community by accompanying me in public and providing opportunities to show that wolfdogs are not the vicious man-eaters they are made out to be. They advocate for wild canines by raising awareness and opportunities for conversation about wilderness, the role of predators and specifically, the role of wolves in a healthy ecosystem.


Again, I just wonder if you ever worry that by providing this model of healthy, balanced wolfdogs to the public you might be actually increasing the chances that people will buy or breed them irresponsibly. I know that I'm biased (because, frankly, I don't see a pressing need for wolfdog advocacy -- wolves in the wild, absolutely), and I know that it's not directly your responsibility what choices people make when they buy or breed canines. But given that you are so concerned about the general welfare of wolfdogs, I would think that this would be an issue for you.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> I guess this is a whole separate issue -- and not necessarily one that needs to be addressed here -- but while this does give me a better sense of how they can control more for temperament, it raises new problems in my mind. I don't think linebreeding is ethically (or even pragmatically) sound.


Given that everyone uses the term "line breeding" loosely and it seems to have a different meaning for everyone, I'm not sure how to put your fears to rest except to say that they are not INBREEDING. Not sure if that clears things up, honestly I'm pretty exhausted right now 



> Again, I just wonder if you ever worry that by providing this model of healthy, balanced wolfdogs to the public you might be actually increasing the chances that people will buy or breed them irresponsibly. I know that I'm biased (because, frankly, I don't see a pressing need for wolfdog advocacy -- wolves in the wild, absolutely), and I know that it's not directly your responsibility what choices people make when they buy or breed canines. But given that you are so concerned about the general welfare of wolfdogs, I would think that this would be an issue for you.


I highly highly doubt that. Whenever someone meets one of my woofers, I'm not like "HEY, look what a great animal this is! Don't you want one?" Instead, I immediately launch into a discussion about how they need at least 8' fencing. How they'll dig out of your yard if you don't install a dig guard. How some of them are such great escape artists they need an outdoor enclosure with a full top. How they'll chew through regular chain link, how they don't get along with smaller pets, how you can't ever, ever have them off-leash, how they howl at 2 am and bug the neigbors, how they'll chew up all your belongings just for a lark, how they can destroy or escape out of nearly ANYTHING. How you'll have to socialize them 10x more than a doggie-dog to get them where my guys are, how you'll have to train with them EVERY DAY and constantly challenge their very active minds, etc. etc. How you should have lots of experience with dogs, dog training and dog behavior because a wolfdog will challenge your thinking and force you to think outside-the-box at all times. How you can give up on ever taking a vacation again because who are you going to find to watch your wolfdog while you're gone? You can't kennel them anywhere because most kennels won't accept them. Or how you'll have to search high-and-low to find a vet clinic that will accept and treat them. Or how you'll have to read up on the laws in your area - state, county, and local - to make sure they are legal. How your neighbors might throw a fit when they find out you have a wolfdog, or how folks might turn and walk the other way when you're out walking your animal because they're afraid. Etc. etc.

Because honestly, THOSE are the real reasons that folks should think twice about owning wolfdogs. NOT because they are inherently more dangerous than any other large dog breed.

I see no reason to be anything but completely honest when I go out with my animals. I don't tell people they make fantastic pets for most people because it's just not true. I don't tell people they are dangerous and unstable and "in limbo" because it's just not true.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> It seems to me that if they are so vastly in the minority, talking about them as if they are more commonplace is risky.


I don't understand how I ever implied they were commonplace, in fact I'm sure I said the opposite. Could you explain further what you mean?

[/quote]I guess I'm imagining that if it were me, and I truly believed that these few breeders were working responsibly but I also knew that the vast majority of breeders of wolfdogs were leaving a trail of tragedy in their wake.... I wouldn't even want to talk about the good few, lest people not deeply involved in the community and aware of all the issues get the wrong impression.[/QUOTE]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I still believe that 99% of potential wolfdog owners out there SHOULD rescue, and that their needs are perfectly well-served by a rescue. Whenever I talk to someone new I recommend they look into local rescues. I have never, ever pointed someone "not in the know" to a breeder. I'm not saying I WOULDN'T in the right circumstances, but it would have to be a case where I knew this person for a long time, knew exactly what they were looking for and felt comfortable broaching the topic with them. 

I mean, I work in rescue; of course I believe people should be adopting these guys and that should be the first option. My wolfdogs are all rescues. I have three in foster care right now that I am actively looking for homes for. So obviously I want people to give strong consideration to wolfdog adoption.  



> I know that I'm biased (because, frankly, I don't see a pressing need for wolfdog advocacy -- wolves in the wild, absolutely)


We need wolfdog advocacy for the same reason we need pit bull advocacy. When the only thing that makes the news is the people who screw up with their wolfdogs, should responsible owners just keep their mouths shut and let the negative press be the ONLY press? I disagree with that. We need wolfdog advocacy so the public starts to understand that responsible ownership exists. I'm not saying that "wolfdog advocacy" means "promoting wolfdogs as good pets". It's more about showing the public that responsible ownership is out there, it's achievable, and there are standards of care for these animals that are well-established and should be followed. And it's ALSO to make people think twice about owning one, when they hear my laundry-list of reasons above why they won't fit into 99% of American's lifestyles.


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## MooWolf (May 3, 2010)

Well said again Nekomi and I would like to add, though a rather long reply to questions directed towards me on a *similar* topic in another forum that do relate to this.


The question was: *In getting these same privileges as dogs, do you feel that that will help the wolfdogs as a whole or just your wolfdogs?*

I always take the opportunity to educate people- some listen and some don’t as with many forms of educating on something that many people don’t understand.
Educating them on identification (as almost everyone thinks all of my animals are pures or mostly wolf) and the special needs of these animals.

I believe that if more people were given the opportunity to educate and be honest about their animals, that may help the issue. We already know- nothing can replace proper education!!! Isn’t that what people that are opposed to BSL and anti-bully (or anti any breed) are all about? Trying to educate and show people, that no, Pit Bulls are not for everyone, but they are not horrible animals either when raised properly and owned by responsible people???

It is usually the people that have REAL wolfdogs that go into hiding. Most of them know how to properly educate on the different areas of ownership, that they are not for everyone!!! Just as it is *usually* (I am not saying there aren’t irresponsible owners of higher contents…but I will say most of them don’t go sprouting on how they make wonderful pets either) the people that have MISREPRESENTED ANIMALS (and that is a whole different issue on its own) that are lying and giving people a false idea of wolves/wolfdogs- in turn giving real wolfdog owners a very bad reputation.

The question was : *You say your wolfdogs are nice, but can you say that for all wolfdogs?*

Really, can you that for ANY animal? In this instance, I don’t think sectioning off wolfdogs for a question like that is very smart or changes anything. Comparing (the majority) of wolfdogs to a tiger…no comparison there. Aside from a point made by so many that “wolfdogs are not dogs”- that’s like asking if every Lab is nice? IMO, yes, raising and breeding sound animals has a lot to do with it (including with wolfdogs).

But how many dogs actually come from incredible breeders??? I guess the clinic I work at just gets all the crappy bred and raised dogs then??? So what exactly is your definition of a well-raised dog? And how many people truly raise their dogs to that standard? 

I have met some wolfdogs (we are talking *mostly* high contents) that no, I do not consider pet quality animals. Most of them too have been rescues that were not handled or raised very well. 


The Question: *Don't you want the practice of combing wolves and dogs to stop? If so, will giving these animals doggy privileges and making them seem just like a dog that looks like a wolf going to help that any?*

To me, this is a pointless question. This type of mentality and law was already tried when they didn’t approve the rabies vaccine for use in wolfdog crosses. Why you ask? Not because it didn’t work, but because the major pharmaceutical companies did not want to be associated with vaccinating “hybirds.” The issue was considered an ethical one, not a scientific one. The USDA was about to approve, but because of the negative comments from vets and anti-hybrid people, the labeling was rejected- putting many good animals in danger. The same as what making them illegal or placing HEAVY restrictions on them will do. 

What’s the point of that you ask? Has that stopped the breeding or ownership of these animals? NO. All it did was cause some breeders to change the name of their animals and for owners fearful and concerned with their animals safety (yes, even in perfectly legal areas) to lie about what their animals are label them as some sort of dog mix. Is it everyone’s dream to have the breeding of these animals stopped- it seems that way…but try looking at this from a more realistic standpoint here. They are not going away anytime soon. 
For a compromise, I can agree that yes…perhaps SOME restrictions should be made for owners (and understandably so, such as having proper containment)- however, they should be within reason (as in many states or areas where they are illegal/regulated the requirements for owning a low content are sometimes the same as owning a pure wolf!!!) 

It is hard enough to find good homes for some of them anyway, adding expensive restrictions and/or completely making them illegal makes it hard on not only real wolfdog owners, but also owners of “wolfy looking” dog breeds. It is not just wolfdogs owners that should be concerned with regulating woofers! I cannot count the number of DOGS that have been euthanized or seized (some not returned- either ended up euthanized or placed in a sanctuary) because of all negative hype and mislabeling of these animals.

The Comment: *Walk your wolfdog around town and you get people interested. They start talking and get other people interested. Then some guy knows some guy who lives next to a guy that has wolfdogs....and lo and behold, more wolfdogs are born due to a higher demand....all because wolfdogs are now looked at as just dogs with wolfy features.*

I walk my wolfdog around anyway. What difference does that make? Or are you implying that there should be a restriction (in a legal area) against walking my animals out in public? LOL. How else are we supposed to educate?! 

I think the movies (such as Twilight and Kristen Stewart) have done enough with making a higher demand on wolfdogs…but seriously, again. It is not the responsible owners or generally the people that own REAL wolfdogs that are the issue with “other people wanting wolfdogs thinking they make great pets.” 

It is the people with misrepresented animals that are usually the problem. Which leads back to most of those misrepped animals are DOGS in themselves anyway. So the problems actually lies in how do you get breeders that are misrepping and people that own husky, mals, GSD’s and crosses of the three to stop lying about their animals and then passing that information down to their buyers?

When I have my guys out and people ask, I tell them what they are AND I stress that they were adopted rescues...and for a good reason! I never recommend anyone to go out and get one!!! And if they are really that interested- i stress rescue and adoption! My animals help spark the conversation that helps to EDUCATE people about them. I believe my animals have helped educate MANY people...and have stopped many more from going out to buy one (probably a misrepresented one at that) because of me telling my experiences of living with them!

I honestly don’t think banning or making them illegal is going to change someones mind with this ignorant POV. That has been made clear time and time again in areas where these animals have already been made illegal.

All it is doing is putting good animals in danger.


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

MooWolf said:


> When I have my guys out and people ask, I tell them what they are AND I stress that they were adopted rescues...and for a good reason! I never recommend anyone to go out and get one!!! And if they are really that interested- i stress rescue and adoption! My animals help spark the conversation that helps to EDUCATE people about them. I believe my animals have helped educate MANY people...*and have stopped many more from going out to buy one (probably a misrepresented one at that) because of me telling my experiences of living with them!*


I'd like to comment on the part I bolded from what I've learned from Nekomi. I've heard her "talk" about her animals and all the work she's put into responsibly having her WD's. Partly because I've heard owner experiences, my desire to have one is 0. It's not because I dislike them, or think anything NEGATIVE about them but because I've learned that having one would not be the same as me having my Lab or my Mastiff. It would be different. I couldn't realistically, or have the desire, to provide the level of care and containment that a WD would require. I wouldn't be a good owner of one. I enjoy hearing about them and learning about them, but in that process of learning...its cemented my belief that they are not an animal that I want to own. They just aren't right for me, just like a Border Collie isn't for me. Like I said, I love reading and learning about WD's, JUST like I love to watch a BC run through an agility course...but definitely not my fit.

So I think MooWolf is right. Education isn't about trying to convince someone that these are the greatest animals ever...its about telling a realistic viewpoint of what its like to LIVE with them. One person may became more interested in what it takes to own a WD in a responisble manner and provide it what it needs to thrive...then there are others like me can walk away from the experience as, "Ok, they are beautiful...but I'll just stick to Mastiff's". lol


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

Mdawn said:


> I'd like to comment on the part I bolded from what I've learned from Nekomi. I've heard her "talk" about her animals and all the work she's put into responsibly having her WD's. Partly because I've heard owner experiences, my desire to have one is 0. It's not because I dislike them, or think anything NEGATIVE about them but because I've learned that having one would not be the same as me having my Lab or my Mastiff. It would be different. I couldn't realistically, or have the desire, to provide the level of care and containment that a WD would require. I wouldn't be a good owner of one. I enjoy hearing about them and learning about them, but in that process of learning...its cemented my belief that they are not an animal that I want to own. They just aren't right for me, just like a Border Collie isn't for me. Like I said, I love reading and learning about WD's, JUST like I love to watch a BC run through an agility course...but definitely not my fit.
> 
> So I think MooWolf is right. Education isn't about trying to convince someone that these are the greatest animals ever...its about telling a realistic viewpoint of what its like to LIVE with them. One person may became more interested in what it takes to own a WD in a responisble manner and provide it what it needs to thrive...then there are others like me can walk away from the experience as, "Ok, they are beautiful...but I'll just stick to Mastiff's". lol


This is exactly what I was thinking. I love the stories, the pics (never too many), learning about them, observing, I'd even love to meet them and spend time with them but I don't see myself as owning one in the near future - if ever. I don't want to say I would never own one but I'm not pursuing it. I'm content to observe.


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## MooWolf (May 3, 2010)

I would also like to add, that I am not against responsible breeding. But like Nekomi stated, good breeders are so very few and far between.

I *generally* do not advocate breeding wolfdogs because of the former, however, I do feel that there will always be that set of people that feels the best animal will be one purchased from a breeder. I feel it not only is the duty of every responsible and truthful wolfdog owner to educate potential owners/buyers about the tests and trials of living with wolfdog crosses, BUT also about breeders and how many irresponsible and unethical ones there are- especially ones that misrepresent and LIE about their animals heritage and wolf %/content and how that negatively affects the overall pure wolf and wolfdog population. 

Some of my views and standpoints have changed a little over the years of working with, rescuing and living with these animals. 

And touch on Mdawn's post...my one girl Reagan, though being the sweetest little girl ever...is exactly the reason why these guys end up in rescue. And she is only a mid content! She is truly a special needs child, that after me talking to people about her for a few minutes, look at me like "oh my gosh...why would you want to live with a animal like that..." LOL! 

Just like when I ask other people how they could live with big mouth Beagles or super drooly Mastiffs! LOL!


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

MooWolf said:


> Just like when I ask other people how they could live with big mouth Beagles or *super drooly Mastiffs!* LOL!


....and that would be someone like me...LOL!!

I've run into the education factor with my Mastiff. People see him and say, "Cool dog! I want one!" They don't understand what its like to live with a dog that's as big as he is. Or the fact that the drool is massive and its gets everywhere. I know a guy that got a Mastiff and mere months later re-homed him because..."I didn't know he'd get so big...?" Seriously? WTH.

So I can relate to what you're wanting to do when educating others on your WD's. People NEED to be informed what its like because the ultimate disaster is getting one, not being prepared and it ends badly for everyone.


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## Charis (Jul 12, 2009)

Mdawn said:


> ....and that would be someone like me...LOL!!
> 
> I've run into the education factor with my Mastiff. People see him and say, "Cool dog! I want one!" They don't understand what its like to live with a dog that's as big as he is. Or the fact that the drool is massive and its gets everywhere. I know a guy that got a Mastiff and mere months later re-homed him because..."I didn't know he'd get so big...?" Seriously? WTH.
> 
> So I can relate to what you're wanting to do when educating others on your WD's. People NEED to be informed what its like because the ultimate disaster is getting one, not being prepared and it ends badly for everyone.


The education factor seems to haunt many breeds - the ones with unusual colors, size, jobs, etc. It would be nice is people would just take a pic, pose with the dog, etc and not go out and get one. Almost like they advice with wildlife.


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## MooWolf (May 3, 2010)

Mdawn said:


> ....and that would be someone like me...LOL!!
> 
> I've run into the education factor with my Mastiff. People see him and say, "Cool dog! I want one!" They don't understand what its like to live with a dog that's as big as he is. Or the fact that the drool is massive and its gets everywhere. I know a guy that got a Mastiff and mere months later re-homed him because..."I didn't know he'd get so big...?" Seriously? WTH.
> 
> So I can relate to what you're wanting to do when educating others on your WD's. People NEED to be informed what its like because the ultimate disaster is getting one, not being prepared and it ends badly for everyone.


LOL!  And Exactly! :clap2:

I agree that there are MANY different breeds that seem to get attention that "just anyone" should not own...and people should be clearly educated on as well!


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

I think wolfdogs are gorgeous. it is illegal to have them more than 50% content in my county. My husband actually wants one, but I put my foot down. I own an malamute as you all know. She is actually very less stubborn then most mals I know. however knowing the stubbornness and independence of a mal or sibe, wow wolf dog could be worse, I don't think a newbie owner couldn't handle it. Im not new to owning a dog before I got maggie but wow she is work sometimes. lol


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Sorry, I'm late to see this thread...haven't been around much, and don't have much time before baby wakes up again...and I didn't get a chance to get through ALL of the pages, just bits here and there...but I wanted to add this for those who might be interested:


Take it from someone who learned a (very hard) lesson, don't buy into the "wolf look-alike" breeds (Tamaskan, NI, etc). Not only are their beginnings covered with so many years of lies that no one knows the truth anymore, but lies are continuing on. They've gotten to the point that to fix everything, it would mean that they would need to completely abandon what they have created and start new, from health tested pure-bred dogs. However, most of them have invested so much money into this "easy, good off leash, good with all other dogs" (which is not always the truth) wolf look-alike, that no one wants to. So there are 1000 split offs of people taking one or two "breeding stock" and trying to cross them with pure breds to get better health results. Don't buy into it...it's no different then buying into the name-a-poo dogs. 

The CSV and Saarloos are actually legitimate breeds. Bred for a working purpose. I don't know much about Saarloos tbh. But I know that CSVs were ALL temperament tested when the breed was new to pick the individual dogs that were worthy of passing on working genes. Their results, as well as every dog used in the breeding program, can be traced...and is available online for anyone to use as a reference for whatever their means are. No, they are not the easiest dog to own, because they...like most northern breeds, were bred to work...which means they need proper exercise and socialization.


If you are only interested in finding a dog that looks like a wolf...just search petfinder. They are everywhere. And if you find a good rescue, they will be able to tell you if you are a good match for that dog. Can't find something today? Look tomorrow, or next week...they are always popping up. And you'll spend maybe $300 on a dog instead of $3000. 

The whole wolf look-alike thing is not worth it. If you want any more information on this subject, feel free to send me a pm and I'll go into the matters more completely. It's just one of those things that I'll always regret (even though I love my dog, I could have easily found a rescue and loved that dog just as much...hindsight is 20:20)


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