# Puppy food for growth? High-Protein?



## BarleyMob (Feb 15, 2010)

I have a 5 ½ month old mini aussie and he is still tiny. I’ve heard by putting them on a high-protein diet, it might help accelerate their growth. Although he is almost 6 month, I don’t know how much more he can grow, but I’ve decided to put him on a high-protein diet until he is 1 year old. I’m hoping this will help and hopefully he grows another 2-3 inches. 

What are some good brands and high-protein puppy foods that I can find at my local pet store?


BarleyMob


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You do NOT want him to grow too fast. This leads to bone and joint problems when they get older. Slow and steady growth is best. Don't do anything to accelerate growth.

Any decent brand of puppy food should be fine. What stores do you have in your area? I like Innova puppy food, but there are other good brands.

If you wanted a larger dog why did you get a mini?


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## DarkUncle (Feb 10, 2010)

BarleyMob said:


> I have a 5 ½ month old mini aussie and he is still tiny. I’ve heard by putting them on a high-protein diet, it might help accelerate their growth. Although he is almost 6 month, I don’t know how much more he can grow, but I’ve decided to put him on a high-protein diet until he is 1 year old. I’m hoping this will help and hopefully he grows another 2-3 inches.
> 
> What are some good brands and high-protein puppy foods that I can find at my local pet store?
> 
> ...


Orijen is generally considered to be the best. I have my 12 week old Portuguese Water Dog on the large breed formula as instructed by the folks at Orijen ( I emailed them).

It's not the protein you need be concerned with. It's the calcium and phosphate levels that can cause the bone and joint issues. I would recommend visiting their website as it contains a wealth of information. This is a good link, assuming I can post links... I apologize if I broke a rule here.

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf

Read the link to what they call the White Paper on their site. Extremely informative.

Regards,
Chris


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Exactly like Willowy said. Grow 'em slow. They will reach their maximum potential regardless of what you try to do to intervien. Let nature do what it's going to do. BTW Pups (and most adult dogs) do better on a lower protein higher fat diet. 26p/18f is what I usually recommend.


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## waterkeeper03 (Aug 18, 2009)

Agree wtih shrink... There also hasn't been much study on what effects feeding those high protein percentages has on a growing body. That's why most of the high protein grain free's are labeled as ADULT and not available in a Puppy or All Life Stages.


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## Enhasa (Feb 6, 2010)

Hey,

I do not know whether your breed is large/medium/small breed, but if you prefer a higher protein food, you can try Orijen Puppy, Acana grain-free (they're all-lifestages formulas), and Innova Evo (According to the label on the bag, this is ONLY for small breeds puppies or adult dogs of all sizes. On the label it says that if you have a large breed puppy, they recommend Innova large breed instead).

Another way is to just feed it a premium food and hope that provides better nutrition.

Most premium foods are more digestible, so the nutrient-intake are actually higher as compared to lower-end foods. This is because there are less fillers, such as corn, which provide absolutely zero digestible nutrition.


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## john47 (Apr 5, 2010)

you do not want your dog to grow too fast. it can cause joint and bone issues.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Enhasa said:


> Another way is to just feed it a premium food and hope that provides better nutrition.
> 
> Most premium foods are more digestible, so the nutrient-intake are actually higher as compared to lower-end foods. This is because there are less fillers, such as corn, which provide absolutely zero digestible nutrition.


When trying to grow a well balanced, stable, well comprised musculoskeletal 
system you really don't want to leave a whole bunch up to HOPE. You better do your homework. Most in the animal industry do not like to see a puppy on food that is more than 22%-ish protein. Anything higher than that esp. during rapid growth periods can seriously cause problems with joint development. Higher fats in foods help with brain development and major organ muscle deveopment (something that adult maintenance foods can not do IMO). 

Oh and just an FYI corn is an alternatice protein source when used as the whole kernel in the food and not the crap that is left over from processing like the hull or gluten. I would certainly consider a food that whold kernel corn in the ingredient list. The arguement isn't that corn holds no nutritional value as much as it is that farmers are genetically modifying the kernel upon planting and using more chemicals than ever in growth hoping to make a "better more abundant corn crop" (the chick at the feedmill abd I have gotten into this debate a few times). An organic or unmodified corn product is more likely to be used in the dog food market so I'm not that worried about it.


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## Enhasa (Feb 6, 2010)

I am currently feeding wellness which is at 28%. I had fed orijen before which is at 40%. 

The orijen I was feeding was meant for puppy. does this mean it is bad for puppies?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Enhasa said:


> I am currently feeding wellness which is at 28%. I had fed orijen before which is at 40%.
> 
> The orijen I was feeding was meant for puppy. does this mean it is bad for puppies?


IMO YES. That is way to high for a dog who's adult weight is going to be over 40 pounds.


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## Enhasa (Feb 6, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> IMO YES. That is way to high for a dog who's adult weight is going to be over 40 pounds.


my dog's adult weight is going to be 3 pounds, 3.5 pounds max. 

is that still bad for it?
I started giving it orijen when it was 8 months old. most people told me to get off puppy food (was feeding it eukanuba and wellness back then) so I figured might as well.

I tried ziwipeak briefly. Gave it 3 pieces as treats but it had a very severe diarrhea so I stopped that in whole.

I went back to wellness though because the stools were soft. I guess it was too much for the dog.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

A 3 pound pup at 8 months old is full grown and should be on adult food by now. IMO 40% protein is way to high for any average house dog and should be used solely on those that are in high activity events like field trials, SAR, and the like.


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## Enhasa (Feb 6, 2010)

hey, thanks a lot. you are actually helping me out a lot in making a lot of decisions. i have been thinking bout what i want to buy next because the food its currently eating now will probably last me another 3 weeks at the very most, so i should start transitioning really soon.

what is the best food you personally recommend?
also, does it make things any better if i mix 1/2 wellness 1/2 orijen to lower the protein %?

Thanks!


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

It's not actually the protein that causes any problems at all. For both small breeds and large breeds high protein DOES NOT cause growth spurts. It is the phosphorus/calcium that is the problem.

Many raw feeders regardless of the size of the dog start their puppies on completely raw food from the moment they can eat. They do not experience any growth spurts or other problems and the protein is like 60%. 

Orijen puppy is a good food to try, we have great success with Orijen with our 3 dogs. If you really want a slightly lower protein, Acana is made by the same company as Orijen but the protein levels are 30-32% instead of 40+. They have 3 grain free formulas and they're excellent as well.


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## DarkUncle (Feb 10, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> When trying to grow a well balanced, stable, well comprised musculoskeletal
> system you really don't want to leave a whole bunch up to HOPE. You better do your homework. Most in the animal industry do not like to see a puppy on food that is more than 22%-ish protein. Anything higher than that esp. during rapid growth periods can seriously cause problems with joint development. Higher fats in foods help with brain development and major organ muscle deveopment (something that adult maintenance foods can not do IMO).
> 
> Oh and just an FYI corn is an alternatice protein source when used as the whole kernel in the food and not the crap that is left over from processing like the hull or gluten. I would certainly consider a food that whold kernel corn in the ingredient list. The arguement isn't that corn holds no nutritional value as much as it is that farmers are genetically modifying the kernel upon planting and using more chemicals than ever in growth hoping to make a "better more abundant corn crop" (the chick at the feedmill abd I have gotten into this debate a few times). An organic or unmodified corn product is more likely to be used in the dog food market so I'm not that worried about it.



I really don't know where you get this information but these high protein issues are MYTH. It's CALCIUM/PHOSPHEROUS levels you need to be concerned with. You say Most in the animal industry? What does that mean? Facts please? I've researched and have seen study after study conducted on protein levels. Google it up and see for yourself. There are no growth spurts or any other ill effect posed by high protein unless there is a pre-existing medical issue where the dog needs to be on some sort of prescription diet.

Orijen which is a high protein food was has received a number of awards including Pet Food of the Year. But how can that be? Because, as you say, most people in the animal industry would not recommend it.

Regards


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## Enhasa (Feb 6, 2010)

what is the ideal calcium/phosphorus levels?

I know innova evo has way higher calcium at 2.2-2.3%

other brands all keep it at 1.2-1.7%


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I think the main problem here is not the food, it is the idea that the OP wants to get his dog to "grow a few inches". This is an unrealistic goal and unnecessary. Dogs grow to the size they are meant to be and making attempts to increase size (in any breed, but the effect is stronger on large breed dogs) sets them up for musculoskeletal issues.

What you want is a dog that is at it's correct WEIGHT for it's size. Period. 

Feeding a good quality food that the dog does well on (proper weight, decent coat, eyes and teeth and good stool quality) will make for a healthy dog.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Calcium and phospherous (which is a direct result of proteins) are important in growing a puppy but the protein source impacts more than growth rate. A dog's system is designed to work on a diet higher in fats than proteins. Anything over 30% really is just too high.. Protein is a fuel that has to be burned NOW in any animal. It can't be stored, it can't be processed any other way aside of energy. They say give your high energy puppy hi protein food which is a BIG LIE. It's the high protein food that could be causing your puppy to be high energy.


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## DarkUncle (Feb 10, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Calcium and phospherous (which is a direct result of proteins) are important in growing a puppy but the protein source impacts more than growth rate. A dog's system is designed to work on a diet higher in fats than proteins. Anything over 30% really is just too high.. Protein is a fuel that has to be burned NOW in any animal. It can't be stored, it can't be processed any other way aside of energy. They say give your high energy puppy hi protein food which is a BIG LIE. It's the high protein food that could be causing your puppy to be high energy.


Haha, no offense but everything you seem to lay down as being fact is pure myth. There has never been a study proving any of your points. In fact every study seems to indicate just the opposite. I sincerely hope you educate youself a little more before perpetuating these myths as facts. Try using Google and bring up some of these studies and see for youself. The link I posted earlier is very informative and is all backed up by facts and studies conducted. Please, post a link to some study validating any of these protein myths you are passing along as fact. From where did you come to believe this nonsense? I sincerely want to know.

Thanks


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

DarkUncle said:


> Haha, no offense but everything you seem to lay down as being fact is pure myth. There has never been a study proving any of your points. In fact every study seems to indicate just the opposite. I sincerely hope you educate youself a little more before perpetuating these myths as facts. Try using Google and bring up some of these studies and see for youself. The link I posted earlier is very informative and is all backed up by facts and studies conducted. Please, post a link to some study validating any of these protein myths you are passing along as fact. From where did you come to believe this nonsense? I sincerely want to know.
> 
> Thanks


There hasn't been a lot of studies on a lot of things, that doesn't prove jack to me. I have done extensive reading on the matter of phospherous and protein as I have a dog with kidney disease and both impact his disease. I don't think I was ever trying to pass anything of as FACT seeing as how much of canine nutrition is still an ever changing mystery. All I can do is pass along things I have read/tried/seen/experience with. The issue you are taking with my belief that protein impacts activity/energy levels/growth and development I think has been proven by many pet food manufacturers so why beat a already debated subject again. Thanks for your suggested reading. 

Have a nice day.


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## parallelbarking (Feb 16, 2010)

I fully believe we'll see a shift away from high-protein foods in coming years. I was a devoted Orijen feeder until I read about a link between certain types of aggression/reactivity and high levels of protein. I switched to something with less protein, but not low-protein, and have seen a huge change in my dog's behavior.


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## DarkUncle (Feb 10, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> ...The issue you are taking with my belief that protein impacts activity/energy levels/growth and development I think has been proven by many pet food manufacturers so why beat a already debated subject again....
> 
> Have a nice day.



Ummm, that's the whole point. This has NOT been proven. Show me proof. Nor should one ever believe a study conducted by a pet food manufacturer. Would be somewhat biased, don't you think? 

Actual independent studies that have been done have shown a dog cannot be overfed protein. It does not contribute to any ill effect whatsoever. Now I see you mention you have a dog with a pre-existing condition. That is the only situation that could, and perhaps should, deter one away from higher protein diets.

As far as energy goes, I would think one would be happy their dog has increased energy. It means he is feeling great and getting proper nutrition. I think many people mistake increased energy due to a healthy dog for hyperactivity, which is very rare in dogs. They then move their dogs back to the canine equivalant of McDonalds so their dog becomes all lethargic once again.

Bottom line is do the research and then decide for yourself. Do not buy into all of these high protein myths.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I believe Mr. V had posted a bunch of research articles on the issue of high protein and their effects. (I'll have to look for the thread)

What those researchers found was that there are NO ill effects of feeding high protein (think raw feeders whose dogs get something like 80% protein). They also did not find any adverse effects in dogs who were suffering from kidney problems. 

Basically, the bottom line was that while there's no research to say protein makes dogs better off/healthier, there is also NO research to say more protein is bad for dogs.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Here is the article extract posted by Mr. V:

"Your dog might not NEED that high of protein, but, it won't be harmful in terms of growth.

Here's a paragraph from a paper on feeding pups. The links is here: http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%2... puppies.pdf

"Many nutrients have been studied to determine which components of these diets cause problems. Over 30 years ago a significant amount of data was published that established a connection between improper nutrition and a variety of skeletal abnormalities in Great Danes, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondrosis dissecans and 'wobbler' syndrome. The experimental diets varied in protein, energy density, and minerals, and it was unclear which factor or combination thereof contributed to the developmental bone diseases observed in the initial studies (Hedhammar, et. al. 1974). The same group went on to investigate the individual dietary components and demonstrated that dietary protein level had no effect on the development of osteochondrosis (Nap, et. al, 1991). For some reason, dietary protein level continues to be incriminated by some owners, breeders, and veterinarians, despite the lack of supportive evidence."

The thread link is here: http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/74488-too-much-protein.html


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## DarkUncle (Feb 10, 2010)

Thank you for that link Lucidity. 

I will mention that I do not feed my dogs Orijen because of the protein levels. I feed them Orijen because of the high quality fresh ingredients and the fact that they manufacture their own food in their own facility not outsourced from who knows where. Not to mention their customer service is second to none. They even sent me an email answering all questions I had along with diet suggestions and tips if I decide to go Raw. Now that's the kind of customer service I can get used to.

Regards,
Chris


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

DarkUncle said:


> Ummm, that's the whole point. This has NOT been proven. Show me proof. Nor should one ever believe a study conducted by a pet food manufacturer. Would be somewhat biased, don't you think?


See now wasn't it YOU that put up that link from Orijen?? Last time I checked they MADE pet food. Hm. Maybe I shouldn't believe anything in it. Studies don't mean jack honestly. They are meerly another source of information. As we've seen time and again studies prove and disprove themselves all the time. What might be fact one year might be proven false 5 years later. Pharmacutical recalls are the perfect example of that. As per the Glickman study (Purdue Veterinary university) it has been proven that higher levels of protein and insufficient exercise has led to unprovokked incidences of aggression and that one I have seen. You feel free to believe what you like DarkUncle and I'll believe what I do and what I have seen thru real life trial and error.


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## DarkUncle (Feb 10, 2010)

Dog_Shrink said:


> See now wasn't it YOU that put up that link from Orijen?? Last time I checked they MADE pet food. Hm. Maybe I shouldn't believe anything in it. Studies don't mean jack honestly. They are meerly another source of information. As we've seen time and again studies prove and disprove themselves all the time. What might be fact one year might be proven false 5 years later. Pharmacutical recalls are the perfect example of that. As per the Glickman study (Purdue Veterinary university) it has been proven that higher levels of protein and insufficient exercise has led to unprovokked incidences of aggression and that one I have seen. You feel free to believe what you like DarkUncle and I'll believe what I do and what I have seen thru real life trial and error.


Yes, it was me who put up the Orijen link. But if you read it you would see those studies done were not conducted by Orijen. The information was merely compiled into a coherent myth busting informational packet complete with references to scientific data.

I will have to take a peek at this Glickman study but fair enough. As you say to each their own.

Regards


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## BlueChaos (Mar 29, 2010)

Theres a reason why Orijen is fine, because they use deboned meats, which helps them to control calcium/phos. 
The old studies that have been done on high protein and kidney damage, relied on using plant sources protein such as corn as opposed to meat which is incredibly difficult for dogs to digest, so of course it caused issues. 
I dont really see an issue with feeding high protein as long as the dog has adequate access to water since its so concentrated, but I agree that its not for sedentary pets that easily pack on weight.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I get as much protein into my 16.5 year old kidney dog as possible. She gets about twice the NRC minimum and it has kept her on her feet. She gets more protein now then when she was on premium kibbles and is doing better. Protein is not calcium and phosphorus. Meat contains lots of phosphorus but some meat has less and egg whites practically none in spite of the high protein it contains. Lots of grains and veggies contain a lot of phosphorus as well, particularly whole grains. Her disease is progressing but her quality of life hasn't diminished much. I want my dogs to have muscle mass for strength and to prevent injury. If you aren't feeding protein you are feeding carbs and carbs are hard for dogs to handle. The study about high protein and reactivity, was it dogs only getting fat and protein or was it a high protein food including carbs? My Max is less reactive on a near zero carb diet which surprised the heck out of me. In fact he seems to have a sensitivity to wheat. Perhaps a high protein food containing wheat would have made him worse, don't know.


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## DarkUncle (Feb 10, 2010)

In the reading I have done, high protein foods will cause a dog to gain weight only if you feed too much. People who feed a not so great quality kibble who then switch over to a quality high protein kibble must not feed the same amount they were. The high protein food is a much more nutrient dense food free from all that unnecessary crud filler that does nothing for a dogs nutrition. Therefore the amount fed needs to be less than the other stuff.

It has also been found that older dogs might perhaps need even more protein to stay lean with a food free from unnecessary carbs.

Think about it this way also. What do all these nutritionists tell us humans to do when trying to lose weight? Cut the carbs, increase protein and fiber.

My whole point in this thread is to just let people do their own research and do what's best for them. I just don't like it when I see people just lay down an opinion about high protein diets as if they were facts. Especially since it becomes a direct attack on me and others who are feeding high protein food as if we were doing something bad for our furry friends. We have done our research and everything seems to point to positive results. If you feel a certain way about it then simply say some people are concerned with the high protein. Do you own research and decide for yourself. But don't simply come on here and say it's bad for your dog. Quite the contrary, actually. 

There is most certainly more studies done that have disproved these protein myths than otherwise. 

Regards


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