# Papillon - Puppy Age To Leave Mother - Advise Needed



## Dannilee (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi

We have a papillon, we got him when he was 12 weeks old. We are now looking to get another papillon and have spoke to several owners/breeders who have all said their pups are ready to go now (8 weeks old) or will be ready to go at 8 weeks old.

I spoke to one lady who said that breeders who let their pups go this young are disgraceful and others that totally disagreed, saying the reason they let their pups go at 8 weeks is so that the new owner can get the full course of vaccinations (all from the same vet).

I personally would of thought 8 weeks was too young and was looking for one around 12 weeks, but whether it is wrong or right nearly everyone I have spoke to who has pups available has stated they are ready to go at 8 weeks.

Should I run a mile? Is this risky for the pup?

Please advise, I obviously want to do what is best for the pup.

Danni


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

I'd run a mile based on the fact that all these breeders have puppies ready to go now.

Most good breeders will have a waiting list or homes lined up for all the puppies with back ups before they are ever born.


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## Dannilee (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi

Well a couple I spoke to have a waiting list but they stated that the breed for show quality. I am not looking for a dog to show, just a family pet. I'm sure not all reputable breeders have a waiting list. My concern is what age should a pup leave it's mother. Would a reputable breeder not let them go until 12 weeks? Should I avoid the ones who are willing to let them go at 8 weeks? My instinct says I should walk away from a pup that young, but I'm obviously not a breeder. 

The ones letting their pups go at 8 weeks have ALL said it's so that the owner can get the pup vaccinated by their own vet.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

Dannilee said:


> Hi
> 
> Well a couple I spoke to have a waiting list but they stated that the breed for show quality. I am not looking for a dog to show, just a family pet. I'm sure not all reputable breeders have a waiting list. My concern is what age should a pup leave it's mother. Would a reputable breeder not let them go until 12 weeks? Should I avoid the ones who are willing to let them go at 8 weeks? My instinct says I should walk away from a pup that young, but I'm obviously not a breeder.
> 
> The ones letting their pups go at 8 weeks have ALL said it's so that the owner can get the pup vaccinated by their own vet.


I think its personal preference. Some will be happy with 8 weeks i personally am not happy with under 10 weeks.

Still even if you are looking for a pet dog the breeder should still be doing all health tests on the parents etc the same as a show breeder would.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think 8 weeks is OK for some larger breeds, but it seems like most small breed breeders wait for 10-12 weeks. I don't know enough about small breed emotional development to say whether I'd take a Papillon at 8 weeks, but it does seem a bit young. 

The reason they're giving is weird, though. They don't even start the vaccines? I hardly think that having the same vet give all the vaccines is so important that the pup misses out on 2-4 weeks of socialization with the family.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

My vet likes to do 1st puppy visits at 8 weeks, but he doesn't mind if somebody else already vaccinated 'em -- you just bring in the documentation so he knows where they stand.

I like to get a puppy at 8 weeks, I think it's just the right age where they're ready to bond with you and start learning. Eight weeks, 9 weeks, 10 weeks, when the pup is 4 months old, it won't have mattered one bit. That's just my opinion. I'm not a breeder, but I'm old enough to have raised a lot of dogs, each better than the last.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

katielou said:


> I'd run a mile based on the fact that all these breeders have puppies ready to go now.
> 
> Most good breeders will have a waiting list or homes lined up for all the puppies with back ups before they are ever born.


Not always true, especially with toy breeds where the number of pups in a litter is so low. My papillon's breeder only breeds once a year, and she's breeding with the intention of keeping the best pup for her own program, so she usually only has three or four pups (if that; sometimes paps just have a couple puppies) available per year. If more than one in the litter is show quality, those can go to show homes, leaving only a couple to sell as pets. She does keep in touch with interested people, but I don't believe she has a waiting list, really. It's never hard for her to find good homes for a couple of pups per year.

She keeps them until at least 12 weeks, though, I believe. She doesn't even bring other breeders in for a puppy evaluation until the pups are eight weeks, and often (as with her current litter of five males) a couple of them are so close in quality that she wants to keep them a bit longer to see how they develop.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Most pap people I know don't really do the waiting list thing. We were on a waiting list for Beau but for the others we weren't. It's hard when litter sizes are usually 1-3 pups to really keep a list. It's not like it's much harder to have 2 more small dogs than the amount they already have. They usually don't know if they'll even have any pups to sell or not until they're older. 

That part wouldn't concern me at all. 8 weeks is a bit weird though for a toy breed. Our youngest we got at 11 weeks, but they're typically taken home 12-14 or even 16 weeks old. I would ask about the size of the puppies. Most breeders I know sell base on size/maturity.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

So far, most of the Papillon breeders I've spoken to let their pups go between 12-16 weeks. I have actually not spoken to one who'd let a pup go at 8 weeks. What sorts of breeders did you go to? Also, where are you located? I find that it varies a lot by country. 

However, in general, show breeders are reluctant to let toy breeds go to their new homes at 8 weeks because they're just so small at that age, and to quote one breeder I spoke to "are too young to be facing the world away from their families just yet". One more important thing--good show breeders usually don't even let their pups go till older than 16 weeks, when they can be assessed for show potential. It's pretty impossible to judge how well a puppy is going to turn out at 8 weeks of age. By 16 weeks, breeders will have a much better idea of which puppies are show potentials and which are not.

The only time they know for SURE, is when a puppy has a mismark, or is so structurally unsound that they know right off the bat that that puppy will not be a show candidate. In my honest opinion though, an 8 week old puppy is a LOT more work than a 12 week old. They grow very quickly at that age, and really at 8 weeks, I feel like they're not ready to be away from their littermates. The youngest I would ever, ever bring a small breed puppy home is at 10 weeks. And that is kind of pushing it.

I brought Cadence home at 11 weeks, and it was completely exhausting! In some ways I'm really happy that I only brought Lyra home at 5 months old.


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## Dannilee (Dec 2, 2011)

Well I'm in a total pickle, I don't know what to do. 

I have found a little boy he is 8 and a half week, the breeder said he is ready to go now. I must have called about 10 different breeders and all there pups are ready to go now and they are all 8 weeks old. We are based in the UK.

I spoke to a breeder who didn't have any pups and was asking her advise on the age and she said that as long as the pup is lively and eating well, then 8 weeks is fine. She said a reputable breeder will know if their pup are ready to go at 8 weeks. I asked about the vaccinations and she said that she gets them done at 8 and 10 week on the recommendation of her vet but she said some vets recommend 10 and 12 weeks.

I have had quite a few breeders send me pictures and have been looking for a while so haven't rushed into it, all the family agreed the moment we saw him, but after reading all your posts I'm thinking maybe he's too young. She has another couple interested and I really don't want to miss out, he's lovely but I don't know what to do.

If this was the only breeder in the UK that was letting them go at 8 weeks I'd walk away, quick shot, but they all say it's perfectly normal.

We are mean't to be going to see him in a day or so.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I wouldn't rule him out either way. If he's on the larger range then it could be fine. The reasoning behind the breeders I know holding dogs is to get them past the 4 lb mark. <4 lbs has a much higher risk of hypoglycemia.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, while I'd prefer a papillon pup stay with the breeder until 12 weeks or so, I wouldn't walk away based solely on the fact that they let a pup go at 8 weeks. As long as everything else sounds good (how's the health guarantee? Does the breeder insist on taking the dog back should you ever be unable to keep it? Is there a spay/neuter clause in the contract?), I'd go for it.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Oh, okay, makes a lot of sense since you're in the UK. All the breeders I was referring to are in Canada/USA/Australia/NZ. Things may be different in the UK, I'm not sure. Is the breeder absolutely unwilling to budge on the 8 week thing? You can always pay first and collect the pup at 10 or 12 weeks if the breeder agrees to that.

Regarding vaccinations, they are usually scheduled to get them at 8 weeks, 12 weeks, and 16 weeks.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I would rather get one at 8 weeks than 16 weeks to be honest (though 10-12 is ideal for me). I wish I'd had Mia to socialize at a younger age. There's an up and down with it. If you do get the pup this young, feed it small meals often and have nutrical on hand in case of hypoglycemia.


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## Dannilee (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks to everyone who replied 

She had someone else coming yesterday evening and we REALLY didn't want to miss out on him (I've been looking solidly for a month, but on and off for months) and he was the one that instantly took my eye 

We went down yesterday and he is adorable, the other couple were there so we said we wanted him before they got a chance.

We planned to go yesterday and I rang to ask his weight beforehand and was told he was 2.2lb, I did some research first and seen that they doesn't seem unusual for his age but I wasn't happy so I said to my husband before we even set off we must call the vets. We told him his age and weight and he said that is not unusal for that age, he said if you get him just bring him straight in, so we got him.

We took him to the vets today and he checked him thoughly and said he is perfectly healthy. I mention the hypoglycemia and he said that is always a risk in small dogs but he had never heard of nutrical.

I can purchase it in the UK but it seems to be something you only give when you see the symptoms of hypoglycemia, I would rather use something to prevent it. Can a tiny amount be given daily or is there something else I can add to his water to keep his blood sugar levels up? As they say prevention is better than cure 

Many Thanks In Advance For Any Advise

Danni


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You don't want to give sugar if he's not having a hypoglycemic episode. This can make his blood sugar spike and then crash. To prevent hypoglycemia, give him many small meals (of high-quality dog food) every day until he's bigger. 4 meals daily should be fine for his size. If he does have a hypoglycemic episode, you can use honey or sugar water instead of Nutrical.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Also, LOTS of activity can trigger hypoglycemia.. When Cadence was little, he had a very bad episode once after playing in the park with his friends. When I brought him home, he was wobbly and couldn't walk properly... then I realized he was having hypoglycemia. Good thing I'd read about it. I quickly mixed honey with water and just used a syringe to feed it to him. After half an hour he was ok. And mind you, he was maybe already 4-5lbs then. So be really vigilant.

After that episode I made sure I had Nutrical stocked at all times.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What they said.

You feed often and small amounts. Some people free feed but the problem there is you can't tell when the dog has or hasn't eaten. 

I've only had one hypoglycemia incident and it was with Summer (8 lb adult papillon) after her surgery then spending the night at the E-vet. She was shaking pretty bad and lethargic. I'm glad I had the nutrical on hand. It helped pretty much immediately and her appetite came back afterwards too. She would probably not have eaten on her own without it. 

You really need to be watchful until he's over about that 4 lb mark. I know people sell dogs that small a lot. The chihuahua people I know have gotten dogs that tiny before, but there really is a much higher risk with dogs that small so it makes me nervous when breeders let them go so tiny. It's just something you need to be aware of and prepared for.


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## Dannilee (Dec 2, 2011)

Hi

Thanks for all your advise, really much appreciated 

Laurelin glad summer was okay, must of been VERY scary.

I am waiting of a delivery of Nutrical, you can't buy it in pets stores here so I ordered it off Amazon. Hoping it will be here tomorrow. In the mean time we have a plastic syringe and honey on hand.

He is such a cutie I will post a pic soon.

The breeder says she fed him 3 times a day a heaped tablespoon each time. We are measuring the same amount out and even hand feeding him at times, but he's not eating as much as she said, so we're giving him some puppy kibble.

Hypoglycemia is a big worry, we are watching him constantly, but have heard I can come out of nowhere. To help keep his blood sugar levels up, could we give him say a tablespoon of natural yogurt a day with the tiniest amount of honey? Obviously not in replace of his food but as an extra?


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## Maribeso (Dec 26, 2011)

I think it is an individual thing on when they go! Some pups are an obvious pet based on color alone so would not need to be evaluated for show. People who do agility and competition often want their pups not later then 12 weeks to start bonding and training. Between 8-12 weeks is a prime personality development period. We do not usually give the first vaccine until about 10 weeks so they would not be able to go until after that. Usually at about 12 weeks is when our pet pups can go but it would vary depending on size, etc. We retain show pups until 6mths at least. I think your best bet would be to go and visit. Ask what health testing the parents have had and get to see the parents. Ask about vet check of the pups, deworming, vaccination etc. Ask about health guarantee of pups. We do not in a sense keep a waiting list but we do have people that are waiting but usually for certain factors such as for agility competion etc Aslo many pet people will find a pup in the meantime or want to wait longer. We try to match the right pup with the new owner. Most of our wait list is show people though.


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## Maribeso (Dec 26, 2011)

2.2lbs for 8 weeks is quite normal and nutrical can be given anytime.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Dannilee said:


> Hi
> 
> Well a couple I spoke to have a waiting list but they stated that the breed for show quality. I am not looking for a dog to show, just a family pet. I'm sure not all reputable breeders have a waiting list. My concern is what age should a pup leave it's mother. Would a reputable breeder not let them go until 12 weeks? Should I avoid the ones who are willing to let them go at 8 weeks? My instinct says I should walk away from a pup that young, but I'm obviously not a breeder.
> 
> The ones letting their pups go at 8 weeks have ALL said it's so that the owner can get the pup vaccinated by their own vet.


A show breeder may breed for show quality, but not every pup TURNS OUT show quality. I'd go with the show breeder that health tests and keeps the pups longer. While 8 weeks is fine, the longer a pup is with it's mother and litter mates the better the chances it will have better bite inhibition and 'doggy manners'. 

Also, most of the time the BREEDER will have the first vaccinationss done at *6 weeks* so that those are kicking in when the mothers antibodies quit boosting the pups immune system (around 8 weeks).


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