# Shikoku Ken in the snow...



## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

We finally got a little snow, it's been very dry this season, very strange.

The pups loved it, and I HAD TO take some snow pics...





































We are supposed to get more tonight, so hopefully I will get some better ones tomorrow!


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

mmmm snow...


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

your dogs are STUNNING especially in the snow


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Your dogs are just way too handsome. It makes every picture breath taking lol. 

Slightly OT, but I know you work to preserve these rare breeds by importing new prospects for the gene pool. Does this mean you occasionally breed too?


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

BradA1878 said:


> mmmm snow...


and this is adorable


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## CorgiKarma (Feb 10, 2009)

Beautiful dogs and beautiful scenery! I love Taos...


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## Shayna_France (Jan 21, 2010)

your dogs are superb!  but which is the race?

Shiba inu ? Tosa inu ?


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## MoonStr80 (Oct 9, 2006)

One word ... 
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Beautiful


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

Thank you! I love taking pics on overcast snowy days as it flattens out the light and makes for really nice shots of the dogs.



Dakota Spirit said:


> Slightly OT, but I know you work to preserve these rare breeds by importing new prospects for the gene pool. Does this mean you occasionally breed too?


Yes, we do *try* to breed them. Actually Loa was just in heat but the male we had selected for her (only three to choose from in North America) had a very low sperm count (14%) so we were not able to pull it off. Breeding Shikoku Ken is like breeding Giant Panda, they do not breed easily AND they are incredibly rare. 




Shayna_France said:


> your dogs are superb!  but which is the race?
> 
> Shiba inu ? Tosa inu ?


They are Shikoku Ken, a medium sized cousin of the Shiba Inu. At one time they were know as Tosa Inu or Kochi Ken, as they are from that region, but during the standardization of the native Japanese breeds they officially named the breed Shikoku Ken so that there was no confusion with the current Tosa Inu (aka Japanese Fighting Dog). The Shikoku Ken was one of the breeds used in the development of the Tosa Inu - the fighting dog.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

I love your Shikoku-ken so much! Lovely, lovely dogs. One day I hope to own one... thank you for all the work you do to preserve and promote this breed in the States!!!!


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## Blizzard (Jan 18, 2009)

Fantastic pics!
More please?


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## Shayna_France (Jan 21, 2010)

Thank you for the explanations Brad! I did not know this race at all!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

You've got me really interested in this breed now. Checked out some breeders' websites, read the standard, looked at that Nihonken(sp) forum.. wow. Very cool stuff.

Your dogs are really awesome, Brad. Please, post more pictures soon.

Do you forsee these breeds (specifically the Shikoku) becoming more numerous in North America within the next few years?


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

BradA1878 said:


> ...but the male we had selected for her (only three to choose from in North America) had a very low sperm count (14%)...


Boy, the Internets is no place for secrets. Poor guy. Now we all know his bidness.  Actually, that must be frustrating for you. I don't have the temperament to be a breeder - too much anxiety about what can go wrong with widely available breeds, let alone such a rare one. Lovely, lovely dogs, though!


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## mintesa (Mar 30, 2008)

wow pretty dogs


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> You've got me really interested in this breed now. Checked out some breeders' websites, read the standard, looked at that Nihonken(sp) forum.. wow. Very cool stuff.
> 
> Your dogs are really awesome, Brad. Please, post more pictures soon.
> 
> Do you forsee these breeds (specifically the Shikoku) becoming more numerous in North America within the next few years?


Thank you. I will try to get some more snow shots tomorrow. 

*As for your question:* _"Do you forsee these breeds (specifically the Shikoku) becoming more numerous in North America within the next few years?"_

I think the Shikoku will grow in popularity, but I dunno that the supply will increase very quickly. Even in Japan they are hard to breed and rather rare, so that makes it even harder for North America to get them - tho me and a few other enthusiasts are working hard to get some new lines brought over. In North America we are nearing a point where the number of studs may fall to as low as 2 - that would be bad.

In April I am hoping I will be going to Japan and bring back some Kai pups, excluding Mochi and her sister (at Classy Kennel), the Kai Ken has not had new bloodlines introduced in North America since 1994. So, these Kai will be a big deal for us, I'm really excited and happy to be helping.

I hope to do the same for the Shikoku soon as well, but it will probably be another year or so.

TBQH, I would like to see the breeds popular enough to be healthy via a solid breed club and genetic diversity, but unpopular enough to never make it to the AKC - but that is just my opinion.


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## ChrisS (Aug 19, 2009)

Wow those are some stunning photos guess it helps having such hansome dogs. It's intersting to see pics of the rare breeds like this.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> TBQH, I would like to see the breeds popular enough to be healthy via a solid breed club and genetic diversity, but unpopular enough to never make it to the AKC - but that is just my opinion.


Very understandable. They seem like they're "different" from other dogs.. it would be a shame if they were ruined by overbreeding and being owned by the wrong people.

Another question (I'm sorry, you've probably answered so many!) - what is their biddability like? Do they enjoy most types of training or are they similar to the spitz breeds in that the things that make them "tick" can change quickly?


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> Another question (I'm sorry, you've probably answered so many!) - what is their biddability like? Do they enjoy most types of training or are they similar to the spitz breeds in that the things that make them "tick" can change quickly?


No worries! I never mind answering questions.

*what is their biddability like?*
-- Shikoku are more biddable than Shiba, Kai, & Akita. They are pretty easy to work with, very trainable, and super smart. They do have the typical off-lead trust issues that other Spitz breeds have, tho.

*Do they enjoy most types of training or are they similar to the spitz breeds in that the things that make them "tick" can change quickly?*
-- Shikoku, as well as all the Nihonken, are "handler soft", meaning they do not respond well to harsh training methods - they will shut down if you pressure them too hard. So, we have found that clicker training works really well with them. Some Shikoku will work harder for food than others, Ahi is not very food motivated while Loa is VERY food motivated - so a lot depends on the lines.

I have noticed, tho many argue with me on the point, that the black sesame Shikoku (aka Kurogoma Shikoku Ken) tend to be "sharper" and higher drive dogs when compared to the red sesame (aka Akagoma Shikoku Ken) who are a bit "softer". So, that may explain why Ahi is a bit more challenging to train than Loa... I have met the majority of the Shikoku in North America, and I can say with certainty that Ahi is one of the more high-drive Shikoku here - she was a nightmare as a puppy. Her dad, Ishi, is like that too.

The hardest thing with Shikoku is their barrier frustration, they tend to have a good bit of this, and that can make them seem very dog aggressive when in fact they are just frustrated and want to play.

Shikoku are reactive dogs too (a trait needed for hunting Boar), so this can make them frustrating at times, but they are generally not quarrelsome dogs - similar to an Akita, they just will not tolerate rudeness from other dogs (tho they expect every dog to tolerate their rudeness - this is where they differ from Akita Inu, as Akita Inu are generally very polite dogs).

(sorry for the long response)


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

wow! i have never heard of these dogs before. i am so glad that yo posted pictures.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Don't be sorry, Brad - that was VERY informative! Thank you so much for answering my questions. They really are fascinating dogs and I like many of their qualities.


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Beautiful, lovely dogs!


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## TosaNoryTessa (Dec 19, 2009)

BradA1878 said:


> We finally got a little snow, it's been very dry this season, very strange.
> 
> The pups loved it, and I HAD TO take some snow pics...
> 
> ...


Your dogs are admirable. Knowing that I admire the Shikoku breed and I hope to possess in a day a couple of dogs Shikoku, to study their character ... I can not imagine how the Japanese made the crossing between: Saint Bernard, English Mastiff, Bull Dog, Bull Mastiff, Bullterrier Dog de Bordeaux with Shikoku dog as a dog to lose the appearance of Shikoku. Rather Akita to Shikoku dog show ... I have not had the chance to make comparison between the Tosa Inu character with Shikoku character, that can me to realize the Tosa Inu character has kept Shikoku dog character.
-What height and weight were The Shikoku Dogs?


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

are these considered a "dominate" breed, that needs a firm hand with training? and is aggression common in the breed?


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

TosaNoryTessa said:


> Your dogs are admirable. Knowing that I admire the Shikoku breed and I hope to possess in a day a couple of dogs Shikoku, to study their character ... I can not imagine how the Japanese made the crossing between: Saint Bernard, English Mastiff, Bull Dog, Bull Mastiff, Bullterrier Dog de Bordeaux with Shikoku dog as a dog to lose the appearance of Shikoku. Rather Akita to Shikoku dog show ... I have not had the chance to make comparison between the Tosa Inu character with Shikoku character, that can me to realize the Tosa Inu character has kept Shikoku dog character.
> -What height and weight were The Shikoku Dogs?


Shikoku are pretty small, 30-55 pounds. They are a very reactive and tenacious breed used for hunting boar.


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

ruckusluvr said:


> are these considered a "dominate" breed, that needs a firm hand with training? and is aggression common in the breed?


No, Shikoku are "handler soft" and require only positive training methods. Too much pressure will cause the to shut-down, they are relatively biddable and love people.

With other dogs, they are social, but can tend to be some what rude and reactive. I do not consider them aggressive, tho they can tend toward a more "wild" nature. Shikoku will not back down from any animal.


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## TosaNoryTessa (Dec 19, 2009)

BradA1878 said:


> Shikoku are pretty small, 30-55 pounds. They are a very reactive and tenacious breed used for hunting boar.


-Thanks a lot! -I wish you success with your dogs!


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## Aaron1987 (Jan 27, 2010)

Absolutely stunning dogs! I've been looking at Shiba Inu's but have been somewhat put off by their small size and (by some accounts overly) independent nature. Your description and my cursory search for more information about the Shikoku has definitely piqued my interest. I live in a good sized condo but don't have a private fenced yard. I'm highly active, regularly go 3-5 mile runs and bike rides (nearly daily). Is a Shikoku at all suited to this sort of environment, or is the lack of yard a deal breaker?


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

Aaron1987 said:


> Absolutely stunning dogs! I've been looking at Shiba Inu's but have been somewhat put off by their small size and (by some accounts overly) independent nature. Your description and my cursory search for more information about the Shikoku has definitely piqued my interest. I live in a good sized condo but don't have a private fenced yard. I'm highly active, regularly go 3-5 mile runs and bike rides (nearly daily). Is a Shikoku at all suited to this sort of environment, or is the lack of yard a deal breaker?


A Shikoku without a yard is probably not the _best_ situation, but its not a _bad_ situation either. I think it depends on the dog, its lines, and its drive level, but I think it can be done. Truth is, if you get a high drive Shikoku, and it is under exercised, it will drive you so bananas that you _WILL_ exercise it just to get it to chill out and not eat your home. LOL

When we got Ahi, who is the highest drive Shikoku I have ever met, we lived in an 800sf condo and had to walk her 5 times a day AND take her to work with us. My wife eventually left her career to work at a dog daycare just so she could take Ahi with her to work and get some of her energy out.

When I say energy, I'm not talking JRT bouncing-off-the-walls energy, I'm talking pure primitive tenacious fury.

Fast-forward to Loa, our second Shikoku, and a much lower-drive dog, she was not so crazy - like fresh air after the Ahi storm. She liked to chew, but never chewed things she shouldn't. She required a lot of exercise, but nothing like Ahi.

I would never wish an Ahi on someone in your situation, but I would place a Loa with you no problem... so, it depends on the individual Shikoku Ken, i guess.

One thing to keep in mind, Shikoku are really not at all like Shiba - they may look similar, but they are very different dogs. Also, a Shikoku is not that much bigger than a Shiba. Male Shibas can be 30lb, and female Shikoku are 30lb-40lb... the difference is not huge - just an FYI.

I made a blog post a while ago about the differences between Shiba and Shikoku, you can read it here if you like. (*forum admins*, am I allowed to link to my blog?)

I hope that helps!


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## Aaron1987 (Jan 27, 2010)

BradA1878 said:


> A Shikoku without a yard is probably not the _best_ situation, but its not a _bad_ situation either. I think it depends on the dog, its lines, and its drive level, but I think it can be done. Truth is, if you get a high drive Shikoku, and it is under exercised, it will drive you so bananas that you _WILL_ exercise it just to get it to chill out and not eat your home. LOL
> 
> When we got Ahi, who is the highest drive Shikoku I have ever met, we lived in an 800sf condo and had to walk her 5 times a day AND take her to work with us. My wife eventually left her career to work at a dog daycare just so she could take Ahi with her to work and get some of her energy out.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information and the link! I guess when I said Shiba's were a little on the small side, I meant to emphasize the little part. I grew up with a Welsh Springer (technically it was mine, but how many 10 year old kids _really_ own "their" dogs ) and love dogs in the 35-50lb range. 

What's a typical wait time to come by a Shikoku from a breeder? I know with my Welsh it was almost a year and although they were a fairly rare breed at the time, there's no comparison to the rarity of the Shikoku.

Also, sorry for derailing the thread; I'll happily take any further questions to private message if you'd like!


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

Aaron1987 said:


> What's a typical wait time to come by a Shikoku from a breeder? I know with my Welsh it was almost a year and although they were a fairly rare breed at the time, there's no comparison to the rarity of the Shikoku.
> 
> Also, sorry for derailing the thread; I'll happily take any further questions to private message if you'd like!


No worries on derailing, its info others may find useful.

The average wait for a Shikoku is 2 - 3 years. Sometimes you can get lucky and get one faster, or happen to connect with a breeder just after a cancellation, but I would consider any of that to be the norm.

There are 3 breeders in North America, one in Europe, an (obviously) several in Japan. I would assume all have long wait lists requiring deposits in advance. 

Let me know if you have any other questions.


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## MarkG (Feb 3, 2010)

BradA1878 said:


> mmmm snow...


Would this be considered a black sesame shikoku or just sesame?


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## BradA1878 (Nov 28, 2009)

MarkG said:


> Would this be considered a black sesame shikoku or just sesame?


Yes, she's a Black Sesame (Kurogoma). Ahi's coat gets lighter in the winter, in the summer she is darker:


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## TosaNoryTessa (Dec 19, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hSNNseSD5Q&feature=channel


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