# Can anyone help me I'm desparate?



## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Hi,

This is my first post have just discovered the site after weeks of extensive research. We have a fourteen month old puppy, who we've had from eight weeks. He came from a shelter and was with his brother - the mother had been brought to another shelter when heavily pregnant and then the pups were transferred to a suburban shelter where more people came.

He was neutered at seven weeks. I read as much as I could about puppy ownership before we had him (it took years to persuade my husband to get a dog so I was determined we would do our best to get e really good family dog. So from the start we followed a training programme, took him to puppy pre-school to socialise, then normal training classes. Went to the dog park every day where he has many friends. The training went fairly well, he comes fairly quickly when out is calm on the lead , can sit, drop etc.. He is excellent with other dogs and has never shown any aggression whatsoever. He is also excellent with our two children who roll around with him and cuddle him - very reliable. So why the post?

The problems.

When I went to work when he was younger, we started with putting him outside so he could have the run of the garden. This didn't work well and soon he was digging holes, damaging anything he could find. Eventually after trying lots of scenarios i found that after getting up early and giving him a long walk before work he would settle in the laundry, this worked for a few weeks. Now though he is unpredictable and sometimes wakes early in the morning and chews the door frame. He chews everything he can find and recently has caused costly damage - curtains, furniture, items of clothing, toys etc..

Sometimes he goes to the toilet inside - this has been going on for about two months, prior to this he was reliable outside.

I feel so sad, because I was madly in love with him, but every bit of damage which costs so much to replace is chipping away my resolve to keep him. He can tolerate separation but has sometimes displayed elements of SA.

He is a large- medium dog, probably a mix of blue heeler/border collie/lab. I know he is high energy and he does get two long walks a day but it doesn't seem enough. I also give him bones, he has had hundreds of dollars worth of toys - boredom busters (which work for short periods) and balls, rubber chews, kongs etc..

What do I do? If he went to a shelter with these problems would they be able to selectively rehome him - I think he would do well in a rural setting with lots of land and other dogs for company as well as people around all the time?

I have always wanted a dog, my kids adore him and my friends have calm happy family dogs which is what we thought we would create by doing all the right things so how have I failed so miserably?

Thanks if you read this long post


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

This is a bored dog. Your dog needs more exercise. A lot more, both physical and mental. I would immediately get a vet checkup with regard to the break in house training.

GET A CRATE AND USE IT WITH THIS DOG. There is no sense in letting him destroy your things willy nilly. You can get a very large one, and research CRATE GAMES to teach him how to love it.

Then start him on a real exercise program, and get back into training classes. A dog like this should be stepping on his tongue tired twice a day.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

crate him while you are out and he won't be able to do all that damage.

and i agree 100% with what Red said about exercise and training classes. he really needs some more stimulation.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

Also agree with the crate training, and what about looking into doing some fun class like agility or flyball with him? For more exercise you can try biking with him, I use the walkydog, it attaches to your bike and you hook the dog up to it. You still need to do some training for the bike riding, don't just hook him up and go. Are his toys all out, all the time? If so, pick em up. Only give him a few at a time and rotate them. Save his favorite bones/chew toys for only when you are gone. Lots of dogs really love marrow bones and they are cheap.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Welcome to the Dog Forums and to the world of owning a dog. It is a shame you did not ask a lot of questions here before getting a first puppy but you are here now so lets get started on training you and then it will rub off on the dog.

At 14 months old if your dog is chewing then you need to crate him when you are not there. This is essentially getting a a cage or airline style crate that is big enough for him to stand up in, lie down in (complete length) and turn around in. A crate is where he goes when you cannot watch him (at work etc.). DO NOT USE THE CRATE AS A PRISON. It is used only for sleeping and confining when you are not home. A crate can be used to help in potty training. As soon as you take the dog out of the crate take him outside to pee/poop and rewqard him heavily, with food, for doing both. 

Expect to spend a lot of time with your dog and this means a lot of time walking him and playing with him and training him. Dogs are an investment in time. The more time you spend with the dog the better the dog will be. Walking this dog will help him a lot and think of the health benefits to you. I get mine out for 2-4 miles a day. A mile of that is before work in the morning. 

DO get into a beginner Obedience class with your dog. This will help you help your dog to be a better dog.

Please get the following books and read them:

"The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson (excellant house training advice in there PLUS lots of great information about why dogs do what dogs do).
"The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell Phd. (lots more on why dogs do what they do)
"The complete Idiots Guide to Positive Dog Training" by Pamela Dennison

You can get "Crate Games" which is a DVD with games you can play with your dog with the crate so the dog likes the crate (www.dogwise.com).

Never leave him in the crate without something to chew on! Kong filled with Peanut butter and frozen can be a great occupier. 

If you find you just cannot devote the large amount of time and effort a dog requires or if you think you will make his crate a prison (because it is easier to put him in there) then, by all means, rehome the dog. Not everyone should be a dog owner (just like not everyone shoud be a parent).


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## sulla88bc (Jul 27, 2010)

Hi

Just a very quick suggestion regarding keeping him mentally stimulated. Hide stuff - find a toy he loves and hide it. Shut him out of the room and then give the command find it! he may need help to start with, but he will pick it up fast. Works great with anything smelly, like a stuffed Kong - a great two stage game, or something that makes a noise. I have a babble ball, which is a motion sensitive ball that makes animal noises. My terrier pup (seriously high energy) loves it. Between these two things alone I can keep him fully occupied for two hours at a time. 

I agree with the exercise advice you have been given, I have experience of collies and labs..they need to be run till you can tie a knot in that tongue. I haven't crate trained because I can do constant supervision, but in your situation I wouldn't hesitate - get a crate!


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## LDMomma (Jul 19, 2010)

Have you looked into doggie day care? Even 1-2 days a week would break up the monotony for him. I would find a good one that lets him play all day (with rest periods) not sit in kennels.


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## hachna (Jul 31, 2010)

I will crate him and if you can, employ a dog walker half way. Obedience training is also good as well as other means of activity.
Good luck!!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The symptoms sound like a typical Lab. In addition to the other suggestions, especially the crate, try a couple of Kongs stuffed with a little peanut butter and kibble, and a buster cube. A 30 min. run in the morning and anoter in the evening may also help. If you can survive for two more years, he will mellow out significantly.


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## pickleshark (Aug 24, 2010)

i need help to .i have 2 dogs. one boy and one girl. the boy is a scaredy cat. he gets so scared that you cant pet him at times. my girl dog doesnt seem to do anything at all.please help me. oh and how do i post a picture on my profile


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies. Have been in contact with a behaviour therapist and the shelter where he came from and am going to get him back into a training class. I have also used the kong with frozen peanut butter and a couple of other toys in the last couple of days and they seemed to keep him busy.

I felt a bit defensive when I read one of the replies - I did ask a lot of questions before we got a puppy, spending perhaps a year looking into different breeds, talking to friends with dogs, a vet, the RSPCA and bought and read at least four books by various authors. So I feel like I tried to be more prepared than some. Additionally we dog sat a couple of times to get the feel for having a dog in the house. However in the end we decided to give a dog from a shelter a home with the best of intentions. They thought his origins were different to what they turned out to be - nobody's fault, but didn't help us be realistic about what he might need. A lot of people on this site suggest prospective owners get a dog from a shelter and whilst this is a commendable action if you get a puppy this way then it is unpredictable.

Secondly, on the issue of exercise I said in my original post that he has been getting a long walk in the morning before I go to work, as well as a trip to the dog park with his friends in the evening, I feel this is a reasonable amount given the busy life we lead. 

It is not necessarily true that the more time you spend with a dog the better he will be. I spent a lot of time with my dog and he has separation anxiety (a vet expert told me yesterday, and I suspected as much from the recent door chewing episode). 

Sorry if I sound grumpy, but I have had weeks of barely sleeping worrying about this and have felt enough of a failure without strangers condemning me. However the majority of the replies were supportive and helpful, so thanks for those.

I spoke to doggy creche and whilst I am considering this option (the one I spoke to sounded ideal) it may prove difficult logistically - the nearest is half an hour away and doesn't open until half an hour before I need to be at work. Traffic, my two children and their schedules etc would make this a tricky option.

I am interested in the lead which attaches to the bike - more details on that if you have them. That would great in the morning when there is not much traffic locally, but how do you train the dog prior to use?

I hope to be able to get a crate eventually but they are expensive and I really can't afford it at the mo' - I already spend more on the dog and toys, chews etc than I do on the kids! Feel guilty about that too. He really gets through toys quickly and they're not cheap. On the question of crates though, for a dog new to it, who is thirty to forty kilos, will it stand up to him?

Once again thanks for the help.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

In light of your reply, my prediction is you will have this dog for about 3 more months, and then he will be passed on to someone else or euth'd because he can't be placed.

Your dog is clearly telling you he is not getting enough exercise nor mental stimulation. Walking is NOT ENOUGH. He needs to be falling down tired twice a day, and he needs reward based training so that he can learn to use his intelligence and energy in a positive way.

If you can't afford a hundred bucks for a crate, I have no idea how you can afford a dog. You can also watch Freecycle or Craig's list to see if you can pick one up for less. And yes, most crates will contain most dogs, even large ones.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm assuming Border Collie/Lab intelligence. I also assume that it is Not SA, because he is chewing on everything, as opposed to general ripping, pulling, tearing and general tornadic destruction. Chewing on wood is more like boredom, shaking and killing chair cushions, yanking down, tearing curtains is more like SA and anxiety. I think that is why the Kong works. You might see if two, as well as a Buster Cube keeps him busy.

Your exercise sounds fine - 30 min in the morning and 30 min of good play in the evening is more than I do for my dog. Something to consider is exercising his brain ... not for more training, but because you probably have a Very intelligent dog, capable of earning a Ph.D. in canine... But, not sure what training exercises to suggest other than a Buster Cube on the difficult setting. Also, see what he does with a raw carrot.

The Crate - Yes, he is capable of destroying the crate, given my assumption of size and intelligence. Search the topics and Stickies (and Google) for Crate Training... It'll take about a week or two to train him that it is a cosy den, not a confining jail. Although they are expensive, they don't have to be new. You may find a used one (clean it well with vinegar or enzyme cleaner to remove all smells) at the local Thrift store, Vet, Humane Society, Dog Pound, etc. It should be big enough to stand and turnaround, and to sleep comfortably.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> In light of your reply, my prediction is you will have this dog for about 3 more months, and then he will be passed on to someone else or euth'd because he can't be placed.
> 
> Your dog is clearly telling you he is not getting enough exercise nor mental stimulation. Walking is NOT ENOUGH. He needs to be falling down tired twice a day, and he needs reward based training so that he can learn to use his intelligence and energy in a positive way.
> 
> If you can't afford a hundred bucks for a crate, I have no idea how you can afford a dog. You can also watch Freecycle or Craig's list to see if you can pick one up for less. And yes, most crates will contain most dogs, even large ones.


I am not really sure what makes you say this. I have said that I am embarking on a new training course (which costs money), as well as the purchase of new toys (which cost money) and just at the moment money is a bit tight and I can't stretch to a new crate. I have spent so much money replacing the things that he's chewed I am a bit broke - I didn't anticipate all the expense caused by his chewing (no matter what the cause) as I've not known anyone with a dog to have had such an extensive problem. I can see by the other posts that this isn't such an unusual thing, I just didn't know anyone who had sufferered it.

I went into dog ownership thinking that we would have a dog to enhance our family. A canine friend who the kids could grow up with, who would accompany me on daily walks, get me out meeting new people and enjoying the outdoors. By adopting a puppy from a shelter, we also thought we would be helping redress the balance of unwanted dogs as oppose to ones bred unnecessarily. Is any of this logic unreasonable? I think if you asked most prospective dog owners their motives would be similar. My finances are not a bottomless pit and I don't think the dog should have new things at the expense of my children (as has been the case up until now). I have afforded the dog, I have bought decent food for him, taken him to training, bought him endless treats and chews, paid for innoculations etc.. why do you seem to imply that my care has been lacking?

I chatted to some other dog owners today about how much exercise their dogs were getting at the moment, (it is winter here in South Australia and we are having all day storms at the moment). These people have a variety of dogs but all of a reasonable size - airdales, german pinscher etc and one said they have been going out briefly each day, whilst a couple of others had not been out for days and reported that their dogs were depressed! On the other hand mine is going out as usual, come rain or shine as this is what I signed up to and is the responsibility I have.

I have just felt low at our possessions being destroyed and the expense and disappointment of that - I am only human. Maybe it's all my fault but I just didn't anticipate it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I am sorry you have been losing sleep over this.. and I do understand the busy life, but I stand by my comment that a dog is an investment in time. Time walking. Time training. Time taking them with you. Lots of time. 

By chewing things your dog is telling you he is bored. A tired dog is a good dog.. and he is not tired. SA is vastly different and is a medical condition requiring medication that sometimes does not work. In SA your dog would escape your house.. go thru windows, defecate all over the house (like the runs) destroy things in an effort to escape when you are not there.. and typically never more than 6 inches from you when you are there. A SA dog will hurt himself to get out. Very serious stuff. 

Crates run about $100-$130 for a large one here in the US. If you can't swing that I too am not sure you can afford a dog. Waht happens if he is accidentally hurt? With his chewing habit, what happens if he eats a sock (frequently happens) or some other item and gets a blockage (also a fairly frequent happening)? Surgery for that is very expensive and usually very successful. 

How old are your children? Can they help with walking the dog or are they too young for that job? 

A dog can be a wonderful addition to a family or a big PITA depending on the entire family's approach to training, exercising and spending time with the dog. 

Well.. I am done. I hope it all works out for you and for your dog. 
Bye.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

hanksimon said:


> I'm assuming Border Collie/Lab intelligence. I also assume that it is Not SA, because he is chewing on everything, as opposed to general ripping, pulling, tearing and general tornadic destruction. Chewing on wood is more like boredom, shaking and killing chair cushions, yanking down, tearing curtains is more like SA and anxiety. I think that is why the Kong works. You might see if two, as well as a Buster Cube keeps him busy.
> 
> Your exercise sounds fine - 30 min in the morning and 30 min of good play in the evening is more than I do for my dog. Something to consider is exercising his brain ... not for more training, but because you probably have a Very intelligent dog, capable of earning a Ph.D. in canine... But, not sure what training exercises to suggest other than a Buster Cube on the difficult setting. Also, see what he does with a raw carrot.
> 
> The Crate - Yes, he is capable of destroying the crate, given my assumption of size and intelligence. Search the topics and Stickies (and Google) for Crate Training... It'll take about a week or two to train him that it is a cosy den, not a confining jail. Although they are expensive, they don't have to be new. You may find a used one (clean it well with vinegar or enzyme cleaner to remove all smells) at the local Thrift store, Vet, Humane Society, Dog Pound, etc. It should be big enough to stand and turnaround, and to sleep comfortably.


Thank you for your comments. I think he does respond well to toys which stretch his mind and I have found a supplier, who I will visit, who specialises in these kind of toys, which sound ideal.

As far as the SA goes it is not definitive, but many of the signs are there - he destroyed our gate when we used to leave him in the garden, he did chew on curtains at the front window as well as the door frame etc. When we went on holiday a couple of months ago we left him with friends (we have looked after their dog in the past and the arrangement was always supposed to be reciprocal) but he demolished their gate, leaving their own dog vulnerable to escape and they ended up having to put him in kennels. This caused massive stress whilst we were away, as we felt powerless to help and had thought that our dog would be happy with theirs. Of course they'll never offer to have him again, so weekends away or holidays when we can't take him will now be more expensive. He does also try to follow me whereever I go, but I am slowly desensitising him and he can tolerate being behind a baby gate with a toy - something which gives me hope that further training will result in success all round.

I guess when you have hit rock bottom and been disappointed and confused everything seems very negative. With some of the tips from posters I will continue to make progress I'm sure. I have found a website for the dog walky bike attachment and will hope to purchase one of those in the near future. I'm sure it will all help.

Can I just make a plea to those who read people's posts to just reserve judgement and read what the person is actually saying and between the lines. I found this forum because I was doing so much research into what steps I could take next. I have and will always try to act responsibly to my dog, but my family are equally important and their needs have to be balanced.



Elana55 said:


> I am sorry you have been losing sleep over this.. and I do understand the busy life, but I stand by my comment that a dog is an investment in time. Time walking. Time training. Time taking them with you. Lots of time.
> 
> By chewing things your dog is telling you he is bored. A tired dog is a good dog.. and he is not tired. SA is vastly different and is a medical condition requiring medication that sometimes does not work. In SA your dog would escape your house.. go thru windows, defecate all over the house (like the runs) destroy things in an effort to escape when you are not there.. and typically never more than 6 inches from you when you are there. A SA dog will hurt himself to get out. Very serious stuff.
> 
> ...


The kids are a bit too young to handle him at the moment. Until he is 100% reliable on the lead (e.g. when he spots another dog more than anything) I can't risk them taking him out alone, he is just too strong. They play with him at home though and my son in particular is very attached to him.

Without being argumentative I think Scout is getting plenty of time spent on the things you mentioned. In reality he is fairly obedient, will come when called (reasonably well!), can do basic commands, will wait for endless time before eating his food, etc we have sepnt time training him and he is fairly receptive. However we work and look after two busy kids, he has to take his turn for the time that is available. I judged what this time commitment would be by looking at the lifestyles of friends with dogs and very few of them take their dog out twice a day as I do. When people suggest more exercise than the two hours he currently gets I think how could I do that? I can't afford not to work.

I hope and pray that a training programme, the right toys and 2 daily walks of reasonable length will be enough. It's all I can offer.


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## Darcystheone (Apr 30, 2008)

I have an Australian Cattle Dog and I can say from experience just from her (who is actually a relatively calm one in comparison to others I know), that that amount of exercise is NOT enough for her, personally. When I am sick or really busy or something she only gets three 30 min walks a day, and I can tell from her behavior on those days that its just NOT enough. I am not saying that to make you feel beaten down, just to give you some first hand experience with a breed that you think he is a mix of. My Darcy and I went through some hard times and I ended up having to adjust my life greatly to ensure she wasn't bored etc. Now we play games outside, run trails together, not just walk. I always thought and it was true of previous dogs, walk the dog and you've done enough. She needs more stimulation than that. 
I will echo alot of what others have said, keep looking into ways to stimulate his brain. If you truly only have the time for the two walks, try to make the most out of them for the dog, get him running along side you not just walking, playing with various toys outside, fetch, any games you can think of. Perhaps try some newbie agility games , I have not been able to find any in my current area, but where we used to live there was a park near by with a course set up for beginners, it was soooo great for her.

Also, I believe you did research as you say, but honestly just asking, in this research did you not hear about crate training? I just figure if your going to buy a dog, its one of those things along with food and toys that you purchase right of the bat yk? We had Darcy's crate before we brought her home (found out her size, bought crate before she was brought home). I know hindsight is twenty twenty, it just seems a little odd that you wouldn't have it first, then the extra damage wouldn't have been an issue ykwim. Again I am sorry if that feels like an attack, I don't mean it as such, I am just curious honestly about your research on crate training prior to bringing your pup home.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Darcystheone said:


> I have an Australian Cattle Dog and I can say from experience just from her (who is actually a relatively calm one in comparison to others I know), that that amount of exercise is NOT enough for her, personally. When I am sick or really busy or something she only gets three 30 min walks a day, and I can tell from her behavior on those days that its just NOT enough. I am not saying that to make you feel beaten down, just to give you some first hand experience with a breed that you think he is a mix of. My Darcy and I went through some hard times and I ended up having to adjust my life greatly to ensure she wasn't bored etc. Now we play games outside, run trails together, not just walk. I always thought and it was true of previous dogs, walk the dog and you've done enough. She needs more stimulation than that.
> I will echo alot of what others have said, keep looking into ways to stimulate his brain. If you truly only have the time for the two walks, try to make the most out of them for the dog, get him running along side you not just walking, playing with various toys outside, fetch, any games you can think of. Perhaps try some newbie agility games , I have not been able to find any in my current area, but where we used to live there was a park near by with a course set up for beginners, it was soooo great for her.
> 
> Also, I believe you did research as you say, but honestly just asking, in this research did you not hear about crate training? I just figure if your going to buy a dog, its one of those things along with food and toys that you purchase right of the bat yk? We had Darcy's crate before we brought her home (found out her size, bought crate before she was brought home). I know hindsight is twenty twenty, it just seems a little odd that you wouldn't have it first, then the extra damage wouldn't have been an issue ykwim. Again I am sorry if that feels like an attack, I don't mean it as such, I am just curious honestly about your research on crate training prior to bringing your pup home.


I honestly didn't hear about the crate until a Canadian friend mentioned theirs. It wasn't mentioned in the books I read, the RSPCA never mentioned it, nor did any friends mention having used one (the Canadian friend I met much later after I had him - a dog walking friend.) I so wish I had known and had established it from the start. I take your points on board about the exercise as you obviously have the experience, he does play well off the lead (both walks contain a mixture of on and off lead action, and it's always good if we meet anothe dog who he can chase around with - he thrives on interaction. He often goes for a swim to chase the ducks, which tires him a little too. he's not a great ball chaser, except if another dog is going after one - then he will steal their ball and make them chase him, very cunning!

The books I have added to my collection recently all espouse crate training, I just somehow missed knowing about it early on.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

beanbear said:


> I take your points on board about the exercise as you obviously have the experience, he does play well off the lead (both walks contain a mixture of on and off lead action, and it's always good if we meet anothe dog who he can chase around with - he thrives on interaction. He often goes for a swim to chase the ducks, which tires him a little too. he's not a great ball chaser, except if another dog is going after one - then he will steal their ball and make them chase him, very cunning!
> 
> The books I have added to my collection recently all espouse crate training, I just somehow missed knowing about it early on.


Sorry for jumping in like this, but I have been reading this thread and wondering: do you bring your dog on puppy play dates? Apart from chance encounters on your walks, synchronising wour walking schedule with a friend who has a dog could help in tiring both pups out, as they would spend a lot more energy chasing and playing with each other than they do simply walking. Just an idea.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

It sounds like you have been reasonable and considerate. Altho things are bad right now... and people are kicking you while you're down, if you can make it through the next couple of years, Scout will mellow down again. One thing to consider is substituting 30 minutes of training for 30 min. of exercise.... only if you aren't seeing progress. Also, before you get too depressed by people imposing judgement from half way around the globe, you might see if the local university or Vet school can suggest a Positive training, behaviorist to come to the house for observation and guidance. Sometimes just looking at the dog provides a clearer picture of the situation.


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## Darcystheone (Apr 30, 2008)

beanbear said:


> I honestly didn't hear about the crate until a Canadian friend mentioned theirs. It wasn't mentioned in the books I read, the RSPCA never mentioned it, nor did any friends mention having used one (the Canadian friend I met much later after I had him - a dog walking friend.) I so wish I had known and had established it from the start. I take your points on board about the exercise as you obviously have the experience, he does play well off the lead (both walks contain a mixture of on and off lead action, and it's always good if we meet anothe dog who he can chase around with - he thrives on interaction. He often goes for a swim to chase the ducks, which tires him a little too. he's not a great ball chaser, except if another dog is going after one - then he will steal their ball and make them chase him, very cunning!
> 
> The books I have added to my collection recently all espouse crate training, I just somehow missed knowing about it early on.



Ok, fair enough, I am Canadian, and its quite the norm, one goes with the other, you have a dog, you have a crate, period. So it just seemed a little odd to me that you hadn't gotten the same advice earlier. 

Good luck with him, keep at the stimulation, try to be one step ahead with new ideas for games etc, and I am sure you will do just fine.


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

I think you're doing a good job! Not all of us can spend half our lives exercising our dogs, but the more the better of course - doesn't mean we don't love them or want them, just means we can't all be the same, & most of here do the best we can.
Don't give up, most people go through this same thing with young, energetic pups. And all that's been recommended here are great ideas - incorporate as much as you can into your life!
Good luck with the new pup!


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## Dreadog (Jun 12, 2009)

I think the trouble new owners have with dogs is that they have an idea of what it will be to have a dog, then they learn it is not so easy. Also, dogs are like babies, you never know what you will get! You friends might all have dogs who are happy enough with two 30 minute walks a day, but it soounds like it is not enough for your little guy. 

I think you have been very patient with the chewing so far, and i am glad to hear you will be trying new things to keep your pup happy. I have a very sweet and calm lab/mastiff mix, but without proper exercise and stimulation she becomes a chewer and destroyer! I agree with the PPs that a crate is the way to go (we crate Hoku still sometimes), ideally with a dog walker stopping by once a day. It does not have to be a professional, a trust worthy neighbor 14 year old might do very well. Also, doggy daycare 1-2 a week can be wonderful!

Good luck, I think if you are able to keep it up, you will end up with a nice, calm dog.


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## Mercy Medical (Jul 6, 2010)

beanbear said:


> I hope to be able to get a crate eventually but they are expensive and I really can't afford it at the mo' - I already spend more on the dog and toys, chews etc than I do on the kids! Feel guilty about that too. He really gets through toys quickly and they're not cheap. On the question of crates though, for a dog new to it, who is thirty to forty kilos, will it stand up to him?


If you don't want to spend the full amount for a crate, then I suggest looking on Craigs List. I got a decent, medium sized crate for $40, which is about half the price that a brand new one would cost. It's a bit bent up in places, but it's just a wire crate so the aesthetic appeal doesn't really matter to me...it does exactly what it needs to do, which is keep my dog confined while I'm away.

But yea, check out Craig's List. There are bound to be some listings on there for used crates, I know there were a decent number in my town and surrounding areas. Hope that helps!



RedyreRottweilers said:


> Your dog is clearly telling you he is not getting enough exercise nor mental stimulation. Walking is NOT ENOUGH. He needs to be falling down tired twice a day, and he needs reward based training so that he can learn to use his intelligence and energy in a positive way.


But what if your dog never gets to the point of falling down tired? I know that I can take Vincent to the park for an hour and he'll play and run and do everything with the other dogs there. Tongue will be hanging out the side of his mouth by the time we're done (my typical indication that he's pooped). I get home from the park and would expect him to pass out, but that's rarely, if ever the case. He'll still be down for a game of tug once we get home or will take a little bit to finally go down. So what then? I mean, I suppose I guess every dog is a bit different in the way they respond to exercise. I walk Vincent for 30 minutes with a backpack with bottles of water in it every morning before work. My girlfriend comes home at lunch and plays with him for another 30 minutes and when I get home from work I typically take him on a 45 minute to an hour walk or take him to the park for an hour. Even with all that, I've rarely, if ever seen him get to the point where he is dead tired.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Elana55;874297
Never leave him in the crate without something to chew on! Kong filled with Peanut butter and frozen can be a great occupier.
If you find you just cannot devote the large amount of time and effort a dog requires or if you think you will make his crate a prison (because it is easier to put him in there) then said:


> The only thing I have to say is be very careful with the amount of peanut butter. We adopted a 3yr old dog a month ago today. We had an issue of her barking/baying in her crate so I did what some told me, pb in Kongs then frozen. Lordy, I didn't know a dog could poop that much. Maybe I put too much pb, I'm guessing it was a couple tablespoons...too much? She's a 50lb dog, has one of the big Kongs


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Meshkenet said:


> Sorry for jumping in like this, but I have been reading this thread and wondering: do you bring your dog on puppy play dates? Apart from chance encounters on your walks, synchronising wour walking schedule with a friend who has a dog could help in tiring both pups out, as they would spend a lot more energy chasing and playing with each other than they do simply walking. Just an idea.


Yes we go to a park most evenings at the same time as a group who all got their dogs at about the same time, so are similar ages. They all play in the same kind of way and a good chase with them really helps - although some days due to the weather people haven't been showing up. Still it's nearly spring so I think it will all become a bit more regular again.



hanksimon said:


> It sounds like you have been reasonable and considerate. Altho things are bad right now... and people are kicking you while you're down, if you can make it through the next couple of years, Scout will mellow down again. One thing to consider is substituting 30 minutes of training for 30 min. of exercise.... only if you aren't seeing progress. Also, before you get too depressed by people imposing judgement from half way around the globe, you might see if the local university or Vet school can suggest a Positive training, behaviorist to come to the house for observation and guidance. Sometimes just looking at the dog provides a clearer picture of the situation.


Am in touch with a behavioural therapist and am going to meet with her to look at issues. I have always used positive training - treat based learning etc and he does learn this way. Just need to get back into a class. She runs one called 'controlled, centred,calm' or something like that, which sounds good.


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## southhavenjen (Aug 20, 2010)

I have seen new large wire crates as low as $50 on eBay with free shipping.


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## Darcystheone (Apr 30, 2008)

Also look for any major stores Pet Stores or big box stores that carry everything, going outta business. We bought Darcy's crate, normally $200, for $45, when a SuperPet near us was going out of business.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Hi Bean Bear,

I have found that culturally that crate training as a "common thing" only happens in North America, so I'm not surprised you didn't know about it in the beginning. Australia's dog culture is different than here and even here it is a concept that's only been common in the last fifteen years or so. Either way, if you CAN swing it and get a crate and condition your dog to enjoy it in there you will be halfway there in dealing with this issue. Management is the first step in training, prevention is key while working on the behaviours you want to change, no matter what they are.

I cannot speculate whether this is SA behaviour or not without more details but it is VERY common for adolescent dogs (meaning less than 3 years old in some breeds..like labs) to go through a second, protracted chewing phase. I do have an SA dog, but not a chewer, she's a howler, urinator, vomiting drooler..it's sad. But with medication, behaviour mod and a LOT of work she's improved immensely.

We don't get the dogs we want, we get the dogs we need..though it may not seem that way when our stuff is being ruined, our lifestyles are limited etc. So, I get it, how you feel. BUT working through it and learning ways to communicate to your dog effectively and REALLY fulfull his needs will allow you to get back to your life AND feel a great sense of accomplishment after much work.

I have found the biggest saviour for me was clicker training and shaping for mental stimulation. Cracker gets LOTS of physical exercise each day (I'm a professional dog walker and now trainer) but mentally she needed more...clicker training was great for both of us and depending on the age's of your kids can be a great way to involve the kids in training and creating tricks etc...win win.

BTW, there is a great Australian trainer, Aidan Bindoff, who has a fun and informative blog. www.positivepetzine.com it's worth checking out.


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## sulla88bc (Jul 27, 2010)

Hi Again

Just to wade into the crate debate and also to put your mind at rest a bit. NOT all trainers recommend crating. I am from the UK and crating is not common here either although it is catching on. Yes there is the argument that it can be a safe den and they may enjoy spending time in it in the end. However, if you have a very high energy dog then they are not going to enjoy spending hours a day in it. Your dog is already bored (probably more boredom than SA by the sounds of things)..how much more bored will they be in a crate? Having said that, I think in your situation I would crate train but not as a solution for leaving your dog for 8 hours a day. You may find that his behaviour at home deteriorates when you are home if he has become mega-bored and frustrated during the day. I think you may need to consider a dog-walker to break up the day a bit and get some of that energy out. 

Finally one of the things I have found most off-putting about forums in general is that they always attract a certain number of fanatics and know-it-alls and people who are rude and call it straight-talking. Ignore them the rest of us are quite nice.

Good Luck and keep us posted with your progress.


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## hachna (Jul 31, 2010)

Hi Beanbear,

Have you heard of calming paste? I only heard of this paste which you can buy from pet shop. Does any member have experience with this? Can this be any help?

Have you thought of leaving your dog on leash outside? I understand there are special leash which is tangle free (i.e. ok to be unsupervised) 

I know those i suggested might not be the best solutions but at the same time I think you need to go along with your life especially you have young children. it is an extremely difficult situation you have been in. IMO your dog exists because of you not vice versa.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

the moment you said 'blue heeler mix' i understood the reason for this, i have a full blue heeler female, she is 7 yrs old now & is my buddy, she goes everywhere with me, even home to visit my parents (& i believe is the one pictured in my siggy). she is a doll now but was an absolute TERROR when she hit the age your pup is now. when heelers & such mixes you have to be a firm, consistant leader, you cant give an inch or they will take a mile. the same dog that is so great now, aite the gutters off our other house, dug so many holes in the back ward that it looked like a mine field & chewed the support posts on the tree house that i had at the time so badly that it wasnt safe to go up there anymore (it literally looked like a beaver had chewed it). your pup is entering the 'teenager' stage of puppy hood & he may get more distructive or me may level out i cant tell you. the only advice i can give you is to find a trainer that is experienced in handling breeds & mixes like this to help you perhaps channel his evergy into something contstructive such as flyball (when he's a tad older) or agility. until then, i suggest finding a good trainer & working on being a firm, patient, consistant leader. your puppy is testing you as any unruly teen would, show him that you are not a push over r you will be in for bigger probs ahead.

i also have to say that i commend you for giving a shelter dog a chance, please dont give up on him yet, your blood sweat & tears will be rewarded in spades down the rd.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

I would definitely have to agree with some of the posts in this thread. He's still a pup, one that's now entering his teenage years. Just remember that you are the one that decided on a pup instead of an adult. So it's going to be a lot of work. I definitely would find a trainer that has experience with the breeds in the mix. I have owned an Australian Cattle Dog in the past, and currently own a Sheltie and 2 Border Collies. I know how you are feeling, and with the proper training, it will get better. Take in everything the trainer tells you and find what works for you. Nell was a bit of a wild girl when I got her at 11 months, and because she wasn't properly socialized as a pup, I've had to work a lot with her, and still am. But now that she's about 3 1/2, she's starting to mellow out more. And we've come a long ways with her shyness as well, mainly with men. Agility class at the Kennel Club is really doing a ton of good with her, as she is becoming more and more confident. And Lucky is my newest rescue, but he's one of those extra special dogs with no issues. Loves everyone, loves other dogs and cats, kids, and is non-destructive. He's like the needle in a haystack, a rare find. Can't wait to start Agility with him.

As for exercise, just remember that physical exercise isn't everything, he needs a ton of mental stimulation as well. For the physical, have you tried to see if he likes frisbee? Whenever I feel I need to wear my dogs out, I just pull out the old frisbee for 30 minutes and they are dog tired. Another thing is swimming, have you tried taking him out with a tennis ball to see if he'd fetch? Have you taken him to a lake or river where he could swim? Last winter Nell gained a little more weight than I really wanted, and now I have her on an exercise regiment 2-3 days a week. We do 20 throws out into the river, some close and others I throw about as far as I can throw. She gets a workout and in about 3 weeks time, she's lost over 6 pounds, and we have maybe another 6-8 to go. She doesn't look too fat either, but you still can't feel her ribs, and has a small belly. But not bad. These are just some ideas you could try, and each only take us 30-45 minutes. And we only do that 3 times a week.

Now for the mental stimulation, there's many games you can play to keep the dogs mind busy. One game I love is It's Your Choice ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipT5k1gaXhc ). You only play the games maybe 5 or 10 minutes at a time, a couple times a day. Another great game is Hide And Seek. You start Hide and Seek by working with Stays and Waits. Then slowly gain distance til you start going around a corner or through another door, then out of sight. Betty, the Cattle Dog I had loved that game, and she understood that Stay means Stay, no matter what you do, and that Wait means to wait til another command is issued. So if I said Stay, I would then eventually return to the dog. If I said Wait, then I may return to her, or I may issue the Come command. Also teach the dog hand commands as well, dogs are more visual than they are verbal. Also check into Clicker Training. Another game with the Clicker is 101 Things To Do With A Box ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8D1xhDM8yI ). These are all things that you can teach your kids to do with the dog as well. Tug is another great game too. But one thing you do want to teach your dog is a Release command, like Give or Out. Can also teach Take, so that you can be waving a rope toy in front of him all you want and he won't go for it until you give the Take command. Or another thing that I saw someone teach their dog is if you have on hand on the rope, the dog tugs. But if you add your other hand on the toy, the dog lets go. So 1 hand is tug, 2 hands is Release.

I know it may seem like a lot, but it really isn't. Training and games should only last 2-3 minutes max in the beginning, and once the dog starts getting it, you can increase the time to 5-10 minutes at a time. Don't overdo it to where the dog starts getting bored of it also. Keep it short, and work at it 2-3 times a day at different times, whether it's you or any other family member. The more you can get the others involved, the easier it will be for you.

One last thing I want to bring up. Just remember that dogs do what is reinforced. So reinforce the good with lots of treats/toys/praise, and ignore the bad. If the dog is doing less of the good and more of the bad, then one of 2 things could be happening. Either you are reinforcing the wrong thing (the bad), or you may not be reinforcing enough (the good). In the beginning, you should be rewarding a ton. You can always cut back later by rewarding chains (multiple behaviors) rather than individual behaviors. When the dog does something bad, stop and take a look at what could possibly be reinforcing it, because the dog wouldn't be doing the bad more often if it wasn't being rewarded in one way or another. And yes, even punishment is rewarding because the dog is getting your attention, which is what he wants, even if it's a punishment.

Lasty, Crate Train. Crates are a wonderful tool when used properly, and the dog is properly crate trained. When I go to work, all 3 of my dogs know that when I close my laptop that I'm getting ready to go, and when I walk back in the bedroom, they are already in their crates laying down, ready for me to close the doors. It's their time to relax, as they know that I will be coming back. And being that I live close to work, I come home for lunch every single day, so that's a plus for me, but not everyone has that benefit. But if I had to go for 8 hours, I know my dogs would do good with it. The most I'm away right now is no more than 4 hours at a time.

Hope this helps. If you have any questions about anything that anyone posts, feel free to ask. We are more than happy to try and help where we can.

Edit: One last thing, read through all the Stickies in this forum more than once. Each time you go through them, you will find some things that you may have missed the previous times you read them. I still go through the stickies now and then, even though I almost have them memorized, lol. Lots of good info in there.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Thanks to everyone for all the replies, this has been a great help and I have lots of new ideas and theories to try. The last few days have been busy (as always) so made sure he had his walk before leaving him (have done this for a long time) and gave him three toys for while I was gone - the kong toy, frozen with kibble and peanut butter inside; another hard rubber stuff toy, with two rawhide sticks in and a knuckle bone (which I wrapped up and his inside 2 boxes). He managed well all three times.

However I was away over night at the hospital this week and he chewed my new boots (grrrr!) I tried not to feel so despondent - it was me that left them in an accessible place after all. That is the hard bit just making sure everything is out of his reach. I have discovered more chewing sites as well in the last few days and they are all window frames.

I hope that with a new training class we will see more progress. I hope to buy one of those bike attachments too, that seems like a great way to wear him out. He hasn't shown interest in a frisbee before but we could give it another go. He does play with a ball but tends to steal other dogs' balls so they will chase him rather than their ball!

Finally for those people who are able and willing to do it adopting a shelter dog is a great thing to do BUT if you get a puppy like we did you will not know what you are getting and so all your preconceived ideas will need to go out the window. In hindsight I should have gone with one of the breeds I had researched that might have proved a better fit for us, but in reality we got a dog who is great with our kids and with other dogs, but has the needs of working breeds and these are proving a challenge for us to meet. When I started the post I really did feel deperate, but now I know that I can only do my best. 

It has been great to find this site and have access to all the knowledge people have and are willing to share so generously. I wish I'd found it sooner.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

If you can get some RapLast (it's made to spray on horse's leg wraps to prevent chewing) and spray it on hard surfaces that he chews, he will stop chewing that. It will stain clothing and fabrics, so be careful. You can order it online.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I'm so delighted to hear of your progress!


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## Noobcakes (Jul 23, 2010)

beanbear said:


> Finally for those people who are able and willing to do it adopting a shelter dog is a great thing to do BUT if you get a puppy like we did you will not know what you are getting


None of us knew how our puppies would be. It's just not shelter puppy. Any puppy you get will be different than the other. I have 2 advices. One, even if it's overwhelming, or not the answer you're looking for, this forums have VERY experienced dog owners. Two, be VERY PATIENT!! I got my puppy when it was 5 hours old. I had to go through feeding every 2 hours, stimulating them to pee and poop, still working on that bite inhibition. You just have to be very patient, and don't leave things where your dog can get it. Welcome to DF BTW!!


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## Sunyoung (Oct 28, 2009)

If it helps any, my border collie used to get a bit destructive while no one was home. We'd come home to lots of torn up things and find that he'd take stuff off of my boyfriend's desk to take to the backyard. We eventually got a crate for him off of craigslist and used that while we were gone (helped a lot!). Then I started taking Dakota (my border collie) to a baseball field near our house and playing fetch with him for about an hour.. sometimes a bit more - the only way I could do this is because there is a water spigot(?) there that he lays in during the many breaks in between fetching. 

Keep in mind that I play hard fetch with him every day to every other day though (and that he's growing out of his tear-everything-up-that-"I"-can-reach stages). 
You also might want to try teaching him commands and/or tricks. (Sit, stay, or my favorite one since I'm lazy: "Bring it here!") If your dog is a mix of border collie and lab then he'll need to be worked mentally and physically. If you start training him (even in the smallest ways), he'll want to please you. Be patient with him though. 

I hope this might help or give you some ideas with your puppy. Good luck!


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## Deron_dog (Feb 21, 2009)

Keep working with him, I'm currently working through two dogs with sepperate aggression issues, and its not fun. Just keep in mind that he does love you, and he's depending on you to take care of him. Also check but I could be wrong I swear I read somewhere once awhile back that crating/kenneling a dog for more then a certain amount of time in Australia is against the law. Again I could be VERY VERY WRONG, but i'd check just to be sure.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Update

Things have taken a bit of a nosedive recently and we are all feeling very low and stressed (including the dog). After seeing the behavioral therapist and working on all the things we'd previously been trying: more exercise; variety of toys including puzzle ones, kongs etc; using other modification techniques etc was feeling pretty positive. Then he had two episodes quite close together which came out of the blue. The first was when the local fire siren went off (it has done frequently since we've had him and he's never reacted to it before. This time though he went into a manic state and chewed the chair leg to bits (he had been sleeping quietly so hadn't thought to check him and the whole thing lasted only a few minutes. Didn't scold or react but we were quite confused. the next week he seemed more anxious and was whining frequently and not coping with things he would normally, then a week ago when the kids left for school on their bikes he attacked the window frame at the front of the house. Again he had been somewhere entirely separate sleeping calmly and just flipped out. The damage was shocking and caused damage to him also.
After this incident and an increased frequency of whining, pacing and generally raised anxiety levels I took him to the RSPCA vet to ask what they thought might be going on - I felt once again desperate at how things had escalated. They spoke to me at length and felt that in view of the factors (him being away from his mother so early, outbursts of SA (even though it wasn't present at all times) and extreme behavior meant that it was likely something might actually be wrong with him. I told them I was having trouble coping (I have spent days crying my eyes out) and they said that as this was causing him and I such distress I should release him back to them - knowing the outcome.
The only other option was to have a full and very expensive round of tests to determine a possible cause and try medication. I opted for this and after spending an absolute fortune at the vets she has confirmed that he does indeed have a chemical inbalance and hs prescribed clomicalm. He has started on this medication today. She didn't try to tell me it would all work out (when we were at the surgery he was so wound up she said he was one of the most anxious dogs she'd seen (he wasn't always like this) and apparently like in humans these problems can escalate at adolescence. We will be having a behaviour modification consultation next week (although as we talked about this she did say it would be doing all the things we'd done already with only a couple of new 'tricks' but this may have more impact couple with the medication.) If after a few months there is no real improvement, it would be kinder to not allow any more suffering.
My son is beyond devastated and is pinning all hope on the medication and regimen. I honestly don't know how he will cope if he loses his best friend. But I need to know I have exhausted every avenue.

None of us knew that his behavior wasn't normal and so as things got steadily worse we just felt confused in our failure to remedy it. Ultimately if the dog is constantly stressed out and nothing will lessen it what do you do?

Has anyone been through this? How has medication helped? I have read a ton of stuff on this med but not from actual dog owners.


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## hachna (Jul 31, 2010)

Hi beanbear,

to answer to your question-sorry I do not have experience with the med 

I have been following this thread and felt quite concerned for your situation. I have a rescue dog which I have found very challenging at times but decided to keep....Again I think you are doing your best for the dog but i am not so sure if you can cope any further.

I must have missed somewhere but could you tell me which country you are at? If Australia, i will see if i can do anything....


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Yes I am in Australia. We live in South Australia. It is all getting a bit much to be honest and I feel constantly torn. However we will give the meds a chance to work in conjunction with a renewed behaviour modification assault. I just can't help constantly feeling was it something I did or didn't do? But I guess the signs were always there, and the vet said if we hadn't worked as hard as we have with him he would be much worse.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

My newest dog has been here less than two months; she has a bit of separation anxiety. What has worked for me: L-thynine (a supplement I got at the health food store), a Thundershirt www.thundershirt.com I think they ship internationally. They were designed for dogs with thunder phobia but it also has helped dogs with SA. Also, they're guaranteed so if it doesn't work, you can send it back and get a refund (less shipping). I also just ordered a CD "Through a Dogs ear" www.throughadogsear.com which apparantly has been put together to calm a dog. They also have a certain CD for calming a dog in the car.
Good luck to you, hope the drug works. You may want to investigate what I've just mentioned. Can't hurt. All I know is I now can leave my dog in her crate (she uses a Vari Kennel, NOT a wire crate...I read that wire crates are NOT advised with SA), with a Kong stuffed with something and leave in quiet & come home in quiet


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Hi Beanbear.
I'm glad that at this point you are willing to try medication. It's true some dogs, just like people, have chemical imbalances and with severe anxiety behaviour modification has a much better chance of working with pharmaceuticals added to the program.
It will take at least six weeks to see any differences in your dog, so try not to get discouraged. Also be aware that not always do you have the right meds at the right doses on your first try. Cracker is on clomipramine (clomicalm) for her SA and generalized anxiety, but if that hadn't helped, fluoxetine or Xanax would have been next on the "to try" list.

Do your research on side effects etc and don't be suprised if your pup seems a little out of it for the first several weeks, the medication does not "dope up" the dog but there is a significantly 'odd' feeling while the brain chemistry is working itself out. I speak of this from my own experiences on medication for seasonal affective disorder. The first month I felt like my head was six inches to the side..lol. There is also a VERY SMALL RISK of him losing some inhibition while on the meds, so be aware that he may seem to escalate with a few of his triggers, and if this happens make sure you are all safe and talk to your vet about different meds. If things go well, you should check liver functions once a year or so to ensure the meds are not having adverse effects on his health...that being said..a less anxious life is a higher quality life, even if the meds do affect his liver function. It's always a trade off.

I also give Cracker L-theanine (sun theanine) and occasionally use an anxiety wrap (similar concept to the thundershirt but not as nice looking). The concept behind the anxiety wrap/thundershirt is that it puts a certain amount of pressure on points of the body and chest, like swaddling a baby, to help create calm in the dog. Combined with a good, positive behaviour mod and exercise/life enrichment we have made lots of progress. 

Good luck, we're pulling for you and your pup!


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## DJsMom (Jun 6, 2008)

You know, I'd have to guess that majority of people in your situation would have given up on the dog by this point. I have a dog with severe anxiety too & honestly, at 1 time I really was close to giving her back to the rescue & if I had young kids at home like you do, I imagine Coco probably wouldn't be part of our family now. 
I do have to applaud you for going above & beyond for this dog.

I'm glad you're going to give the meds a try. We did try chlomicalm for her which didn't seem to help at all, BUT I do know now that we gave up on the drug too soon after 30 days with no effect - I really hadn't given it a chance to reach a therapeutic level, but honestly ... it was very expensive.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I have no experience with this, but I wanted to voice the negative, so that it is out there as gently as possible.

Sometimes, even dogs as calm and placid as Golden Retrievers and Cocker Spaniels have genetic problems, resulting in difficult dogs that are hard to maintain. After the therapy and meds, please consider the long term strain vs. the near term pain.... and realize that after a couple of months you can adopt another dog. 

We take a risk when we adopt a puppy... and on rare occassions, very rare occassions, we can't make a difference. 
I don't intend to be cruel, only to put the oter side out there. Sorry.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

DJsMom said:


> I'm glad you're going to give the meds a try. We did try chlomicalm for her which didn't seem to help at all, BUT I do know now that we gave up on the drug too soon after 30 days with no effect - I really hadn't given it a chance to reach a therapeutic level, but honestly ... it was very expensive.


DJ'Mom,
The veterinary forms of the drugs ARE expensive, this is true, as many of them are formulated as chewable meds etc to make them easier to administer. I buy the generic clomipramine from the pharmacy rather than from my vet, who was happy to provide me with an rx for it. It costs me 50 dollars a month. Most if not all of the medicines are available in their human form for much less, so cost can be mitigated that way.



hanksimon said:


> I have no experience with this, but I wanted to voice the negative, so that it is out there as gently as possible.
> 
> Sometimes, even dogs as calm and placid as Golden Retrievers and Cocker Spaniels have genetic problems, resulting in difficult dogs that are hard to maintain. After the therapy and meds, please consider the long term strain vs. the near term pain.... and realize that after a couple of months you can adopt another dog.
> 
> ...


Hank, well said. Beanbear has thought of this though:
From an earlier post:




> We will be having a behaviour modification consultation next week (although as we talked about this she did say it would be doing all the things we'd done already with only a couple of new 'tricks' but this may have more impact couple with the medication.) *If after a few months there is no real improvement, it would be kinder to not allow any more suffering*.


And I agree wholeheartedly. Personally I would try a different meds if the clom. didn't cut it. But yes, quality of life is very important and being terrified and anxious all the time with no chance of relief is not a good life.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Thanks for the supportive replies, it makes such a difference to me to know that people understand what you're going through. It has been a very tough week and an ironic one - my birthday tomorrow marks the reason we got the dog in the first place (although he came before it last year) but it's a real reminder of how long I'd wanted a dog in our lives and now that brings guilt. I have felt awful that having brought him into our lives, we have all become so attached to him (particularly myself and my son), yet it might not work out and then I'd have to take him away from them - I honestly don't know how my son would cope, he has been so tearful this week and clings to the dog every morning before he leaves for school, worried that he won't be here when he gets back! However I have told the kids we need to step up the NILIF and other techniques and my vet and others have said we need to really drop the level of attention he gets for a little while until the real calmness sets in.
I guess the real problem for me has been the inconsistency of his reactions. When I first posted I was unsure as to whether it was purely SA and it seems that it isn't just that as the triggers for panic episodes with the resulting damage have been varied and unpredictable. He does have many SA traits, but often does well with a good regimen. I can't tell what will set him off and it's that that keeps you on edge, unable to fully relax in case some really bad thing happens. I have lived on adrenaline for a while now!
My husband (a reluctant dog owner) was so good when I told him about the ray of light the vet offered he said simply that I should do whatever I needed to - I have never loved him more!
I wonder those who have dealt with this, what behavior modification techniques have you found to be most effective in increasing your dog's confidence and independence? I have had so many tips from here on all sorts of things and it has been so incredibly helpful.
One tip from me (which the lady at the RSPCA gave me) as an alternative to kongs, which are expensive to buy if you have more than one and only last my dog a relatively short time, even frozen. What they do for their doggy day care 'inmates' is take an ice-cream tub (or for smaller dogs a margerine tub) and freeze bits of pasta, meat, kibble, veggies etc in a liquid suspension of water flavoured with bovril, Marmite, Vegemite or stock so it will smell appetising. Apparently it lasts a long time even for the big jawed chewers and can be made with lots of non-fattening tasty treats, also great for hot summer days.

Well day one on the meds was uneventful. He has also been wearing a bandana sprayed with DAP that the vet gave me just to try and apart from a couple of chews on the end of it he has worn it with no dramas. A friend popped over this evening and he was quite excitable then, but settled quite quickly when we all ignored him (which he normally does.)

If he wasn't so great most of the time (particularly with the kids, other dogs etc) my SO would have packed his bags long ago. The vet said I'm lucky he doesn't know what a normal dog is like!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

For a young dog, one of the things possible is socialization and habituation to as many situations and people as possible, using similar techniques as used for therapy dogs. Some therapy/ service dogs wash out of the program, but they still turn out being fairly socialized. For example, you might walk him over to the fire department, with some treats, and let the fire fighters know about the problem, asking them to provide treats... and maybe one day you might ask for some "off-duty" help with the alarms. And, slowly address each symptom, one at a time.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

hanksimon said:


> For a young dog, one of the things possible is socialization and habituation to as many situations and people as possible, using similar techniques as used for therapy dogs. Some therapy/ service dogs wash out of the program, but they still turn out being fairly socialized. For example, you might walk him over to the fire department, with some treats, and let the fire fighters know about the problem, asking them to provide treats... and maybe one day you might ask for some "off-duty" help with the alarms. And, slowly address each symptom, one at a time.


Thanks for your thoughts. The thing that makes it all so difficult is the inconsistency of his responses. This morning the fire siren went off and he didn's even notice it - this is where I am despairing as to how to implement behaviour modification as I don't know what to desensitise him to! One minute something sets him off the next it has no effect. 

Today has been another frustrating one. He managed to get my son's new soccer jacket (only worn once) and chewed a hole in the pocket, he also chewed a bigger hole in his school trousers. He took my daughter's packed lunch out of her bag (damaging the bag in the process), hid it and chewed it, so when she got to school she had no lunch. He has gone off his puzzle toys and will only play with them for a few minutes (although the kong with food in is still acceptable.)

The anxiety is ever present. I just question where it all went wrong really. He went to puppy pre-school and met tons of dogs, people, etc as a young puppy. He had walks, toys, obedience classes etc.. It is so confusing as I said before he does not consistently react like an SA dog but when he does it's really extreme. Feeling really fed up and anxious. When my two aunties come to stay in three weeks and I am working part-time I will be a nervous wreck - will he eat their stuff? Will they forget that he can't be in the back yard unsupervised as he routinely breaks into the chicken coop and drags out one of the poor chooks? Will they forget to shut the stair gate and let him into areas where he can cause real damage? Will they forget any aspects of his routine if they go out resulting in more damage? Will an upset (i.e. the change of having visitors) cause him to flip out continuously?

OMG!

Forgot to say the clothing was in laundry bins in their rooms - we did always have a laundry bin in the laundry, but one day he decided to eat everything in there (after many months of co-existing with the laundry with no problems at all!)


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

beanbear said:


> Today has been another frustrating one. He managed to get my son's new soccer jacket (only worn once) and chewed a hole in the pocket, he also chewed a bigger hole in his school trousers. He took my daughter's packed lunch out of her bag (damaging the bag in the process), hid it and chewed it, so when she got to school she had no lunch. He has gone off his puzzle toys and will only play with them for a few minutes (although the kong with food in is still acceptable.)
> 
> 
> Forgot to say the clothing was in laundry bins in their rooms - we did always have a laundry bin in the laundry, but one day he decided to eat everything in there (after many months of co-existing with the laundry with no problems at all!)


This goes for any dog, puppy or adult...when they do something "wrong", such as pottying in the house or in this case, eating stuff, it is the humans fault. You need to supervise your dog. That means in a different room, leashed to you, a crate, an X pen or managing chewing in some rooms by closing the doors.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> This goes for any dog, puppy or adult...when they do something "wrong", such as pottying in the house or in this case, eating stuff, it is the humans fault. You need to supervise your dog. That means in a different room, leashed to you, a crate, an X pen or managing chewing in some rooms by closing the doors.


The doors were closed, unfortunately my son has a sliding door which can be pushed open regardless and my daughter's catch is faulty. Usually we are watching him, I spend my life constantly watching him or asking 'what is the dog doing?' or 'where is the dog?' it is a stress I never anticipated. When I was a kid we has a dog and we walked her, fed her, played with her and other than that she just hung out with us. All the other dogs of friends or family I have ever known have been the same. So when we decided to get a dog I had no idea it could be like this, constantly watching them, entertaining them more than the children, endless expense and waking up to massive destruction as we did today - he broke out of the laundry in the night and finished off the front window frame to match the other side!
Some dogs just have psychological problems that are either not compatible with humans, or the humans will put up with the massive expense and stress they cause possibly at the expense of other relationships. I am just about done.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

It may be time to find a good rescue for your dog. Sorry it turned out so stressful for you


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> It may be time to find a good rescue for your dog. Sorry it turned out so stressful for you


Thanks for your kind words, but as the RSPCA vet said when I took him there for a consultation a while ago it is hard enough to find them a home when they don't come with a bottle of pills for an anxiety disorder. Everytime I think I have definitely decided to give him up I relent. Tonight he has slept peacefully beside us, whilst myself, SO and the kids played a board game. He happily accepted my son jumping all over him and daughter giving him a big cuddle. Seems so peaceful and such a good dog... then I remember this morning when I found the damage that will cost several hundred dollars to fix (not even a week after I have paid out for blood tests, vaccinations, anxiety meds etc) and I just think how much more? Am still so torn. If I thought someone could do something for him I'd gladly hand him over, but what could they do differently and why would they bother when there are 'easier' dogs to adopt?


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Your vet is right and yes it is hard, I understand. When dealing with Cracker's SA I vaccilated often between "I can't handle this" and "poor dog". I have even thought about giving her up (once and only once and I cried like a baby about it)...then I got back up, dusted myself off and got back to work. 

Give the meds a chance to start working. Figure out a way to latch the kids doors and keep moving forward. In the end I don't regret Cracker's issues and they did improve, but it took time and management. She is now a most awesome pup, if even occasionally still a bit of a startle girl. It can be immensely rewarding when they finally start to improve.


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## beanbear (Aug 22, 2010)

Cracker, were you dealing with constant destruction? This is the bit I can't cope with now. Seeing all our precious belongings getting wrecked. Crate didn't work - borrowed one and he just damaged it, I suspected this would be the case. I am spending all my waking hours deliberating about what to do in a way that I never have about anything in my life before, even emigrating with my family!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

beanbear said:


> Cracker, were you dealing with constant destruction? This is the bit I can't cope with now. Seeing all our precious belongings getting wrecked. Crate didn't work - borrowed one and he just damaged it, I suspected this would be the case. I am spending all my waking hours deliberating about what to do in a way that I never have about anything in my life before, even emigrating with my family!


Some dogs don't do well with a crate because they just can't handle it, but MOST don't do well because they were introduced to the crate badly. "Here's your crate. Get in. No? Okay I'll just put you in and then we're all going out for several hours..see ya!"...dogs need to be conditioned to LIKE the crate FIRST, especially if they've not had early positive exposure to it as a pup. Crate games help. Realizing the crate will not be in use for confinement right away helps too. Making sure pup is tired and has a good training session (followed by a pee break) before confining is also important.

There are other options in confinement. Using a small room, puppy proofed and baby gated. Using an expen (a tall one) so there is more room and it's not as closed in. Gating pup in the kitchen etc. Management is key to helping him get over the chewing...realizing that the chewing is LIKELY based in a combination of boredom and anxiety, it is worthwhile looking at feeding all his meals in a food toy, providing good dogsafe BONES to work on and encouraging this while ensuring NOTHING is available for him to chew on that is not appropriate. Working his mind (herding breeds do WELL with clicker training and problem solving games) to help tire him out mentally.

Cracker was not overly destructive luckily, though I did lose the arm of a couch and the baseboards around the doorway of my apt. But I had puppy proofed obsessively..no clothes lying around, no shoes, no purses or bags, no books, no remotes etc etc. 90 percent of my apt was stuck in closets..lol. Instead I dealt with vomiting, urine, feces and drool. I think I should have bought stock in paper towels and Nature's Miracle.


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