# Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherd Duo (A LOT of photos!)



## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*The lives of Lancer and Roscoe; the Miniature American Shepherd Duo*

Hello all! Like other posters, this thread will be updated every other week as I take photos of Lancer and Roscoe and their carefree lives on the sunny coast of Southern California every couple of weeks.  

I currently don't live with my dogs. Being a college student, I dorm at school during the academic year, but I come home every other weekend. 

My Aussies now consist of Roscoe and Lancer, the Miniature American Shepherds (AKC recognized name for mini Aussies).  Roscoe is a 2.5 year old female and Lancer is the new 9 week old male pup. 

Here's to puppyhood! 
Roscoe at 8 weeks old: 




























4 months: 



















7 months:


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature American Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

1 year and 8 months: 





































2 years and 2 months:


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*The lives of Lancer and Roscoe; Miniature Australian Shepherds*

2 years 5 months: 




















Now Lancer's in the spotlight! The little newbie and Roscoe were fast friends (more like IMMEDIATE FRIENDS!  ) Roscoe absolutely adores him, the minute she laid eyes on him! I'm only too serious!  She clearly likes him much more than he likes her LOL! Shouldn't it be the other way around, but no! 

Sorry about the darkness and the camera flash. When we arrived home, it was already 7pm at night, and the day was dark. 

8 weeks and 2 days old: 










He's very big for a mini! Only 8 weeks old and more than half Roscoe's size already!


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Apologies about my dad's feet in the photo... LOL




























And the finale...! Taken in the morning without flash! 










Hope you guys enjoyed!  I'll be updating on his growth next weekend.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Very cute. The MAS are one of my favorite new breeds to hit the AKC and I'm excited to see the little guys competing at the trials soon. Rosco looks smaller than most MAS I have seen is he a little undersized by the breed or no, I think males are required to be 15-17 inches is that correct?


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

haha, Roscoe is a female despite the name.  She just meets the minimum requirement for females at 13", which explains how large Lancer seems compared to her! 
She was a runt of her litter too. When we visited the breeder to pick her up, her siblings were all quite literally twice her size. She weighed about 3 pounds when she was 8 weeks old.

Lancer's sire and dam are both 17", and he was also the largest of the litter. He should size up to much larger than Roscoe. 

ETA: I see you have Aussies in your sig- they're beautiful!  Love Kechara's mask.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Yep I've had Aussies my whole life it's funny, I have had people ask me if my dogs are Minis on several occasions. Just recently, like two days ago, someone asked is your dog a Miniature American Shepherd (the new name for the Mini Aussie) and again I just had to say no they are Aussies not Minis but thank you I'm glad you like them lol! And it gets even more complicated when someone learns that an Aussies can actually be the same size as a mini. My girl Lark has a close relative who is 17 inches tall and my boy Hawk has a sister who is around 16.5 inches tall but neither of them are Mini Aussies they are Aussies.


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Oh my, it's very understandable how that can get confusing, when the sizes overlap lol! Especially since the MAS was developed by directly breeding smaller Aussies under 17" to begin with.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*



caykuu said:


> Oh my, it's very understandable how that can get confusing, when the sizes overlap lol! Especially since the MAS was developed by directly breeding smaller Aussies under 17" to begin with.


Well the MAS was started by Sandy Travis who bred her toy mixes with Aussies and then continued her lines by choosing the smallest most typey puppies from each litter.
Not sure if you've seen pictures of Sandy Travis' dogs but here they are the foundation dogs of the MAS 
































Now Sadny Travis "claimed" that her dogs were purebred Aussies but it's quite easy to see from these photos, that she herself posted on the internet, that her claim simply isn't true.


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

I've never seen these photos before! I wasn't aware that they were ACTUALLY little mixes to begin with lol  I wonder how the first and second photos dogs were mixed. It could be papillon, with the upright ears. It's funny how in the MAS standard now, upright ears as well as many other characteristics that Sandy's minis had are a fault, despite these little guys being the "originals".
It's interesting how in the in the fourth photo especially, his anatomy looks rather pom-like. He/she looks really small. 
Breeders after Sandy Travis did directly use smaller Aussies to create another line for the MAS though, which would explain some modern MAS being 17" and 35 lbs with clear Aussie characteristics.

I'm unsure of whether my Roscoe has some mutt smaller breed in her lineage, since she was particularly small to begin with. I've been told by other dog enthusiasts that something in her face didn't scream pure "smaller Aussie", but that was when she was a year younger.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*



caykuu said:


> I've never seen these photos before! I wasn't aware that they were ACTUALLY little mixes to begin with lol  I wonder how the first and second photos dogs were mixed. It could be papillon, with the upright ears. It's funny how in the MAS standard now, upright ears as well as many other characteristics that Sandy's minis had are a fault, despite these little guys being the "originals".
> It's interesting how in the in the fourth photo especially, his anatomy looks rather pom-like. He/she looks really small.
> Breeders after Sandy Travis did directly use smaller Aussies to create another line for the MAS though, which would explain some modern MAS being 17" and 35 lbs with clear Aussie characteristics.
> 
> I'm unsure of whether my Roscoe has some mutt smaller breed in her lineage, since she was particularly small to begin with. I've been told by other dog enthusiasts that something in her face didn't scream pure "smaller Aussie", but that was when she was a year younger.


from what I understand the MAS clubs haven't allowed any other breeds to be mixed in except for Aussie since Travis' original dogs. So in essence today's purebred MAS (we all know of the newspaper ads that claim to be selling Minis that are nothing more than Aussie Papillon crosses) are more than 98% Australian Shepherd bloodline. The only difference being that MAS are specifically bred to be a certain size while Aussies can be any size so ya there is a lot of overlap but you can find out if it's a MAS by looking at the pedigrees. I wonder if you have ever checked out the Pedigree database for Aussies and Minis? you have to sign up to view it but it's a wealth of information that is really fun to search thru.
Aussie and MAS pedigree Database


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Your dogs are very cute!


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

I haven't checked it out- thanks for letting me know! xD

Thanks Spirit


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

They are beautiful!


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

I just want to say how gorgeous your pups are!  I really do not know much of the history on the breeds.


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Thanks you two! 

I'm really looking forward to seeing Lancer again over Thanksgiving holiday. Being such a vigorously growing pup, he'll already look different from when I left him last weekend.  hehe


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

~11/22/12 (10 week old Lancer, 9.5 lbs)

Lancer and Roscoe are doing perfectly together  They love each other very much!

Roscoe likes to nibble Lancer’s ears and limbs… like a corn on a cob…. It’s adorable.

and Lancer is growing SO fast. These are at 10 weeks old, and it’s already getting hard to tell which one is the puppy! He’s going to end up much larger than Roscoe! Probably 30~35 lbs at 2 years old.

He’s INCREDIBLY focused during training sessions, amazingly food-motivated, and absorbs new information so quickly- it's crazy! In a few sessions within a couple days, he's got "sit", “down”, “stay”, "roll over", "shake", "touch/look at me", and learned how to walk on properly on a leash within an hour. In the future, he will walk on my left and Roscoe on my right.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*



caykuu said:


> Oh my, it's very understandable how that can get confusing, when the sizes overlap lol! Especially since the MAS was developed by directly breeding smaller Aussies under 17" to begin with.


No. They were developed from some very small mixed breeds owned by breeder named Sandy Travis. And then some Aussies were bred in. Here are some Travis dogs. You can't tell me these are actually Aussies. http://www.myspace.com/travistoyaussies/photos/1550016#{"ImageId":1550016} You have cute little dogs though. Just from a totally different direction


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## annadee (Aug 22, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Ohhh, Lancer is so cute! And of course, so is Roscoe! Adorable dogs.  You must miss them so much when you're away from home! One reason I couldn't bear moving out to go to university is because I'd miss Max too much... he helps me stay sane while studying for exams... walking and playing with him is so relaxing. Luckily there's a really good university not even an hour's drive away from my house, so it worked out well for me.


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*



Pawzk9 said:


> No. They were developed from some very small mixed breeds owned by breeder named Sandy Travis. And then some Aussies were bred in. Here are some Travis dogs. You can't tell me these are actually Aussies. http://www.myspace.com/travistoyaussies/photos/1550016#{"ImageId":1550016} You have cute little dogs though. Just from a totally different direction


Yes, Keechak and I had a short discussion on that above!  
I decided to make one long compilation on the history of the MAS here. Since it's been brought up twice on Lancer and Roscoe's photo forum already. LOL  Just to inform anyone curious. 

Someone else's post on another forum that is informative and thoughtful on the history and perspective on MAS, if anyone has the curiosity and time. She also explains the reason for years of controversy on the breed: 

The ultimate goal for most reputable mini aussie breeders was to be accepted as a variety of the Australian Shepherd. If you look at the ASCA working dog, it is noticeably smaller and more refined than the AKC show dog. As you go back decades and look at the ASCA Hall of Fame dogs and foundational dogs that represent the Aussie breed today, you will often see dogs that look very similiar to our mini aussies of today in size and stature. We believe that minis are just Aussies that a smaller than 18". That is why it is not uncommon to see breeders breeding 18"+ dogs to smaller dogs. Too us, they are all the same breed, much like a poodle comes in varies sizes, but the same breed.

The confusion comes in from a dog named "Puppy" which was a breeding decades ago by a lady named Sandy Travis. Mom was an aussie, but dad was an "unknown". Sandy has actually clarified several times that dad was an unregistered aussie, thus making "Puppy" a pure bred aussie. Puppy was tiny, only about 13" tall. (Obviously not a purebred Aussie at this point) From Puppy came a dog named Cordova Spike who also was extremely small.. He is credited to being the "first" mini aussie. 

For 20+ years people have developed and bred dogs that were under 18" tall using only Australian Shepherds. (Again talking about reputable breeders. Yes there was mixing going on, but not by people who are genuinely concerned for this breed)_ Several clubs were launched in favor of the smaller aussies. In 1993, when aussies went AKC several breeders chose to go with them, however most decided to side with ASCA and not take their aussies AKC. Through all this time, we thought the clubs were actively promoting the mini aussie as a variety of the standard aussie. Here is where it gets really confusing. One of the mini clubs in an effort to not lose a show venue decided to rename the mini aussie as a "north american shepherd". At that time one of the rare breed venues would not allow any dog to show that was an AKC breed or variety. So the club kept their "mission statement/intent" but changed the name of the dog.

Fast forward to the last few years. Now after years of working to promote our little dogs as a variety, some of the very people who were most ardent in wanting our dogs to succeed decided that it would never work and chose a different route. At this point I don't know who approached whom, but some how Lynn F. who vehemently hated the mini-there are emails she has sent to the mini l list to prove it, became involved with prominent members of one of the clubs and convinced them that AKC would indeed accept them as a breed iIF they could finally admit that the minis were indeed a mix breed (from the Travis "unknown" dog) and that they were never pure bred australian shepherds. This is how the "derivative" theory got started. Minis are derived from Aussies but are not Aussies. Once this happened, the use of the Australian Shepherd name became false. "Purebred Aussie" owners would not allow a breed that is by their own claim "not an aussie" to use it their name. Thus the name Miniature American Shepherd. It is no accident that the acronym is MAS, the same as the mini aussie acronym. The AKC parent club of the Aussie has been heavily involved in directing what the mini amerrie breed will and will not be able to do. This has always seemed ironic to me. If these dogs are a separate breed, why should the aussie club have any say. any more than the poodle club? But that's just my opinion.

And directly from the MASCA website: 
Mini Aussies ARE Australian Shepherds and likewise make excellent stock, show and performance dogs as well as companions. The smaller lines have been around for as long as the Australian Shepherd itself, becoming unfashionable in the 1970’s, around the same time at which the certain smaller lines gained the “miniature” label. The “miniature” applies only to size when compared with the Australian Shepherd, and should not imply diminished working ability or a “toy” size. Australian Shepherds of the miniature variety have no advantage or disadvantage over the Aussie.

MASCA on the Breed Standard http://mascaonline.com/breed-info/breed-standard/ :
The Australian Shepherd of the miniature variety should be judged as if it were an Australian Shepherd in all respects other than size. Toy-like characteristics (i.e. domed head, bulging eyes, fine bone) are a disqualification. 

MAS clubs haven't allowed any other breeds to be mixed in except for Aussie, ever since Sandy Travis' original dogs. Thus, today's purebred MAS (from reputable breeders... we all know of the newspaper ads that claim to be selling Minis that are nothing more than Aussie Papillon crosses) are more than 98% Australian Shepherd bloodline. The only difference being that MAS are specifically bred to be a certain size while Aussies can be any size. So yes, there is a lot of overlap, but you can find out if it's a MAS by looking at the pedigrees. 
^Keechak's post above


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

The smaller lines were never 13 inch dogs. They have never been Australian shepherds, but a somewhat related line. They will not ever be a size variety. There are no size varieties in Aussies. This is my ASCA registered purebred who is 17.5 inches. She is not a mini though, as she comes from pure ASCA lines.


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

By smaller lines, do you mean the ones under 13"? If so, that's very true.  Just to clarify, I was discussing MAS in my previous post, not Australian Shepherds.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*



caykuu said:


> By smaller lines, do you mean the ones under 13"? If so, that's very true.  Just to clarify, I was discussing MAS in my previous post, not Australian Shepherds.


Just stating that they are not Australian Shepherds of any form. Pedigrees are different, and not that well documented (one reason why ASCA and AKC would not register them, though there was some creative registration going on when AKC first pirated the Australian shepherds.
Which is why AKC has done some contortions to accept the breed now. They are very cute little dogs though. Just not Australian Shepherds..


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Good job. I agree.  They ARE two different breeds.
I hope to keep further breed discussion off my dogs' photo forum though.This topic occassionally becomes catty with the wrong people, and I'd like to avoid that.


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## caykuu (Nov 12, 2012)

*Re: Lancer and Roscoe's lives; the Miniature Australian Shepherds (A LOT of photos!)*

Captured a quiet cuddle moment between Lancer and Roscoe today.  I've never known another MAS as touchy-feely with other dogs as Roscoe is. 
I'm so pleased that they get along so well, and have since the minute I carried Lancer home.


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