# Papillon training, Collar or Harness?



## jesterjigger (Dec 12, 2008)

We've been using a harness on Jilly, our Papillon. This one, to be specific http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3046479 

The puppy class instructor said that he doesn't like harnesses because they encourage pulling. I'm worried about using a regular collar on her little neck. Apparently they had a problem with a German Shepard wearing a harness in a recent session, and he was dragging his owner about the pen while being agressive toward other dogs. 

Jilly does pull a little on her harness, but it's mainly when she sees new people she'll stand on her hind feet and wait for the person to come to her. She uses the harness for balance, but she's not trying to run forward at the same time. She's only 4 pounds and when teaching her to walk on her leash I do the following...

Say, "come on Jilly" and then kiss to her twice (it's a horse thing)
Generally she comes right away, but if not I give a quick tug on the leash and repeat, if she comes then I praise her a lot

I'm very quick to do the come on Jilly and kiss when she slows down just a little, and generally we can get past distractions without stopping, but not always. I'm just worried that the tug would be too amplified, or even harmful on her little neck. She's catching on to walking on her leash *very* good, and with the tidbit from the puppy trainer that when she gets ahead of me I stop walking she was doing even better during a quick practice session after class wrapped up.

We haven't actually worked on leading in class yet (just sit, so far, tonight was mainly going over rules and guidelines) but I want her to have a good handle on it because the other puppies seem a lot older than her. 

She's our first dog, so I don't know what the pros and cons are of harnesses versus leashes, I'd just like to have as much information as possible before going to the next class. We'll take her collar too, but I'd like to make a good decision for our puppy to make sure that she doesn't end up injured or have her training slowed down, due to a bad decision.


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## 4paws-up (Jan 6, 2009)

I dont have a Pap but chi's and I dont think they should ever be on a collar. I imagine it would be the same. I had a trainer make me buy those barbaric prong collars and the dog ended up hurting himself cause he pulled too hard. I also had him on a collar for a quick pee once (was not home) he ended up getting horse as he must have strained himself. With the collapsed trachea with my breed that is enough alone to say HARNESS!!!!


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

I have two min pins and I'd NEVER use a collar on them. I use harnesses and my Zoe walks perfectly with a loose leash. Here's a picture of Liz in her harness, which is padded with felt so it never chafes  It's an EZ Harness. It also allows me to grab them VERY quickly by the leash and up into my arms if necessary (someone's rude dog running aggressively toward us - I'd much rather they hurt or jump on me than on my five pound dog!).

Please don't use a collar on her - it'd be SO easy to hurt her.


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## 4paws-up (Jan 6, 2009)

I like that harness I currently use a Puppia - where do you get those? Do they have them for larger breeds as I have a mix of sizes


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

Yes, they come in all sizes. 

More info here: http://www.ezleash.com/

I looked hard for them as any collar, even soft cotton ones, marked my minpin's necks so I finally found these and never looked back  I have four of them!! LOL


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## 4paws-up (Jan 6, 2009)

myminpins said:


> Yes, they come in all sizes.
> 
> More info here: http://www.ezleash.com/
> 
> I looked hard for them as any collar, even soft cotton ones, marked my minpin's necks so I finally found these and never looked back  I have four of them!! LOL


Thank you I am the same way- if it feels itchy I wont get it LOL


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

Our puppy trainer also doesn't like harnesses as a general rule for pulling but is fine with small breeds using them just for safety reasons. Did you ask about using a harness or just going off what was stated in class? You could also look into a "no pull" harness like the gentle leader.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

We trained our paps on buckle collars but that was 8 years ago. I think I would lean towards a harness now from what we know about collapsed tracheas and neck/back injuries (even in large dogs). If you go with the buckle collar you should just be extra cautious about not dragging your dog around with it. I know you are more aware than some because you have a small breed. But don't let the pace of the class dictate the speed you feel the dog needs to move. Ifyou are slower than the rest of the class it may encourage the trainer to let you go with the harness instead so that you can keep up, from their perspective.


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## jesterjigger (Dec 12, 2008)

Thanks so much you guys! He did say that depending on how Jilly was she might be ok to stay in the harness. He used her as an example of a dog that wasn't pulling during the class, but we only really worked on sitting for 15 minutes, the rest of the class was spent going over rules and guidelines.

We talked to the instructor's wife (who will be teaching some of the classes) after class, and she said that she thought Jilly would be fine in her harness, I just wanted to make sure we weren't doing something wrong by wanting to use the harness. She's getting better and better on her leash, so by the time we cover that in class we should be ahead of most of the dogs, or at least on par with them. Most of the time I forget I'm leading her because there is always slack in the leash. 

It'll be interesting to see how she keeps up with the other dogs once we start walking. She has no problem keeping up with a brisk walk, but the classroom atmosphere may change that. She forgot how to lay down yesterday, so we're working on it in other rooms to help her remember in new situations. Fortunately she was still pretty good with sit in the new area and that's all we worked on.

There were a lot of puppies making horrible gasping sounds when straining against their collars last night, I would hate to hear Jilly making a similar sound. For the class everyone uses a buckle collar, the instructor said up front that it's a positive based training class. Until last night I never understood the need to specify buckle collar!

Thanks again for all of the responses!


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## Hiaja (Aug 15, 2008)

I personally prefer the collar. I have a Papillon and have had her since a pup. I only ever used a light flat collar and NEVER put anything more restrictive or corrective on I didn't feel it was necessary. 

My preference in a collar is that it sends a clearer message, easier to communicate 'go' and help into a sit since a slight pressure upward on the head encourages the but to go down faster, easier to correct-you can use less pressure on the neck for a corrective pop then a harness. I also feel in a harness I am just pulling my dog back instead of giving the gentle correction, more of a muddled message. 

If your dog is distracted you can redirect it's attention easier back to you with a collar. A harness is harder, you can control the body but the head can wander and look where ever it wants -harder to redirect.

I think it all depends on the dog. My aunt has a dachshund that LOVes people and will pull till he's sick so a harness is a better choice for him. It doesn't stop his pulling in fact he pulls harder in a harness, thankfully he's not bigger , since he can put more of his weight into the harness than a collar but the collar is just too hard on him and we love him the way he is. 

That's just my personal opinion and experience, hope it helps a bit


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## lucygoose (Feb 11, 2008)

Well, I have used a collar, harness, pinch with Willie.....not in that order......You have to remember that I got him at 7 months and he barked at EVERYTHING!.....LOL.....Started an obedience class as soon as I could get in and we used the pinch.....that boy behaved and I didn't have to even do anything.....it was a God send.....LOL....You have to know how to use correctly, and yes, you can hurt them if you don't......We used that for awhile and wen we no longer needed it, I used the harness.....Willie hated it....flipped all around and just would not cooperate, so just went with a buckle collar. In fact it is from Collar Mania......He does fine......We trained that if he walks pulling, you go backwards......do not go forward, till he walks nice.....All the little dogs we see in the dog club here, I don't think any have harness....I personally prefer the collar, also......

Good Luck and give that baby a pat from me!!


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## Sunshyne (Feb 5, 2008)

I have never used a collar on Chloe as they are strongly frowned upon for use with Pugs (and other small breeds). I have trained her to walk nicely in a harness, it's really no different than "loose leash" training. I followed all the training steps for loose leash walking from the day I got her, and it wasn't hard at all.

Many people think that dogs will just pull more if they are in a harness, but really, if you train her correctly she will do fine!


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## WalkerDog (Jan 19, 2009)

The reason collars are an issue is that small dogs are more likely to have neck/tracheal damage. Pinch anc choke collars, especially with leash jerks involved, will greatly increase this risk.

The only times that harnesses encourage pulling is if they're back-clip harnesses (the ring is on the dog's back). Look for harnesses that clip in the front (on the chest of the dog). These are similar to head harnesses, in that they pull the body to the side when the dog tries to tug forward.

I particularly like the Easy Walk harness (found here), or you can check out the Premier Surefit herness here. Notice both of these allow you to clip the leash to the front (the Surefit also has a way of clipping to the back but, again, I don't recommend that).

Also, get some training for your dog that uses rewards to encourage good leash walking. Especially if you choose to use a flat collar, you should not have a dog that tugs!


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I jsut returned from our obedience class with our 9 year old papillon. (we are giving her a forever retirement home now that she is finished showing and whelping...but she needs house manners!) I decided that I would try the buckle collar for the first class and see how it goes. There are lots of small dogs in our class with most using a martingale collar (half flat nylon, half chain). I found that the flat buckle collar is not giving me enough control and correction for my pap. So I stopped at the store on the way home and got the appropriate size martingale collar for her. We have been practicing for a couple of days at home with the martingale and she is doing much better.

Just a thought. If the flat collar isn't cutting it, try a martingale.


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## myminpins (Dec 20, 2008)

WalkerDog said:


> Look for harnesses that clip in the front (on the chest of the dog). These are similar to head harnesses, in that they pull the body to the side when the dog tries to tug forward.
> 
> I particularly like the Easy Walk harness (found here)


I have three EZ walk harnesses and love them. They have the ring on the back of the dog. If you pull, it pulls them straight back or up. I prefer a harness on the min pins so I can pull them up into my arms quickly if need be. I also like that I can't harm their necks. With the sheltie, I am using an EZ Walk harness for now but will switch to a collar as he gets older. 

EZ Walk harnesses and collars are sold on their own site: http://www.ezleash.com/


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## lucygoose (Feb 11, 2008)

Never tried the martinggale on Willie.....Did the hair get into the way of it working good Briteday? Willie does have lots of hair....I also have the easy walk, but Willie is right between sizes.....he is too big for the small and too small for the medium....in fact, I have it sitting here and need to take it back.....we tried and tried to make the medium work, but it hangs and rubs him.....there is a pug in our agility class that wears a buckle collar.....The martingales are usually on the big dogs I see in class. I looked yesterday, and shoot, it seems most have buckles....This thread got me looking now.....


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## WalkerDog (Jan 19, 2009)

lucygoose said:


> Never tried the martinggale on Willie.....


Realize that martingale collars aren't meant as training collars. They're meant for dogs whose heads are the same size as their necks. It prevents them from slipping out of the collar (bully breeds and sighthounds like greyhounds have this physical trait and, so, will often have martingales on). 

The martingale is not meant to be used like a choke collar, though it may certainly cause less damage than one if used as a training collar. Remember, again, that using a flat collar or training collar (or using a martingale as a training collar) in addition to using leash jerks can pose a greater risk for neck/throat damage to a small dog.


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## lucygoose (Feb 11, 2008)

Hi Alyssa....

Thanks for explaining that to me.....I really don't use the collar for training anymore.......no jerking on him for sure.....in agility, it comes off before we run, and I guess I just want a collar to keep the tags on and to use with my leash to walk or go anywhere.....so we just have a buckle collar.....

jesterjigger, good luck!!!


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## jesterjigger (Dec 12, 2008)

Wow, great discussion! Last week's puppy class was cancelled due to bad weather, but we've been working on heeling at home and she's doing great, we'll see how she is at puppy class though. She's out of puppy pads so we're going to take her to PetSmart to get more tomorrow morning to see how she does in public, but we'll take her flat collar to class tomorrow regardless.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I wouldn't leave a martingale on for tags and such. It is really only for training. A martingale is 1/2 flat collar (around the throat area) and 1/2 choke chain (at the back of the neck). You do have to do a bit of searching to find a martingale for a small dog. I fianlly found one at an obscure ranch store in my area. Not everyone carries them for small dogs. But I have gained a lot of control and correction for training with my pap once we started using the martingale.


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## WalkerDog (Jan 19, 2009)

When adjusted correctly, martingales shouldn't be any more dangerous than a regular flat collar, in terms of leaving it on the dog at all times. Again, martingales were not originally designed as "training collars," though they're often advertised as "humane" choke collars. Go here  or here.


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## CerbiesMom (Jan 30, 2008)

thanks for that link to the ez harness. Brigit has been able to slip out of any harness I've ever bought for her, and I think that one would work, since it has the sliding connection at the top. I didn't even think to look at their site, I have an EZ leash for CErbie and I love it. And I like to use harnesses with my little guys. Prone to back problems.


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## Clementine's Papa (Sep 6, 2009)

WalkerDog said:


> The reason collars are an issue is that small dogs are more likely to have neck/tracheal damage. Pinch and choke collars, especially with leash jerks involved, will greatly increase this risk.


I'm certainly not here to question anyone's experience, and I know there are as many many scenarios as there are dogs and dog owners. I have used a prong collar on my papillon, Clementine, since she was old enough to start collar training. Slip and prong (rather than the negatively biased "pinch" and "choke") collars are far safer to use than flat collars if you will be making leash corrections, because pressure is distributed equally around the neck...if the owner takes the time to use them properly!!! Flat collars do not apply pressure equally around the neck. In fact, most of the pressure is on the trachea. People look at these tools - especially the prong variety - and label them as "barbaric" and "cruel" without an honest exploration of the topic. In short, if you educate yourself about using training collars, they are safe for almost all dogs.


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## PappyMom (Jun 5, 2009)

Gizmo is extremely dog-reactive on leash. So we have a harness on him, because he will pull, and could probably seriously hurt himself with a collar. We have however invested in the gentle leader and we are trying hard to train with it.

Roxy doesn't pull at all, and we have a collar on her, no issues at all with it.

I'd say as long as she isn't pulling and gagging herself, you'll have no issues with a collar. I feel I made the mistake of getting Gizmo a harness and not a collar when he was 3 months old, I honestly think I made it comfortable for him to pull..if that makes sense.


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## WalkerDog (Jan 19, 2009)

"Safer" may be the case, but it's still not the best option, in my experience. In fact, for a small dog, leash correction training is not only dangerous, but unnecessary. There are safer ways of preventing pulling and training the heel without using leash corrections. I think my point was that there are types of body harnesses that are very effective at preventing pulling without creating ANY risk, whereas ANY collar around the neck has a potential risk to any breed of dog. In addition, because leash corrections aren't necessary to train leash walking, that means collars are also not a requirement. This makes body harnesses, in my experience with clients, the most effective and safest training tool for leash walking for any breed.



Clementine's Papa said:


> Slip and prong (rather than the negatively biased "pinch" and "choke") collars are far safer to use than flat collars if you will be making leash corrections, because pressure is distributed equally around the neck...if the owner takes the time to use them properly!!! Flat collars do not apply pressure equally around the neck. In fact, most of the pressure is on the trachea. People look at these tools - especially the prong variety - and label them as "barbaric" and "cruel" without an honest exploration of the topic. In short, if you educate yourself about using training collars, they are safe for almost all dogs.


Does your harness have a ring on the front of the chest? Clip the leash there, instead of on the ring on the back (which, I believe, was put there so people could attach tags to the harness, not to put the leash on it). See if that makes a difference with the pulling.



PappyMom said:


> I feel I made the mistake of getting Gizmo a harness and not a collar when he was 3 months old, I honestly think I made it comfortable for him to pull..if that makes sense.


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## jason12 (Apr 14, 2010)

We have hunting dogs and my dad uses these Training Collars would they work?


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## Barbara Sue (12 mo ago)

jesterjigger said:


> We've been using a harness on Jilly, our Papillon. This one, to be specific http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3046479
> 
> The puppy class instructor said that he doesn't like harnesses because they encourage pulling. I'm worried about using a regular collar on her little neck. Apparently they had a problem with a German Shepard wearing a harness in a recent session, and he was dragging his owner about the pen while being agressive toward other dogs.
> 
> ...


I recommend using a harness. Our last dog,a papillon, got a collapsed trachea. We think it from using a collar, and if we get another dog, we will definitely use a harness.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

This thread is 13 years old so I'm closing it to further replies. Feel free to join in any of our current discussions, though!


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