# "Sit Means Sit"



## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I just came across this amazing video of training an aggressive dog. 

http://sitmeanssit.com/dog-training...d-training-dog-and-people-aggressive-pitbull/

I don't know how legit their training methods are, but from watching the video, this dog seemed to turn around so quickly! What are your opinions on Sit Means Sit - providing you've heard of them? 

Even so, check it out!


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

The "Sit means sit collar" is an e-collar. They use it on young puppies, I've definitely seen it on 6 month old dogs if not younger. There is a LOT of nicking. Anything that promises quick results is a scam, basically. You don't train a dog in an instant or even a day. I am not a fan.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You don't want to know what I think of this "training"


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> You don't want to know what I think of this "training"


I haven't read a whole lot on it, I just saw the video and wanted to get everyone's opinion on the methods if they knew about it more in depth. I seriously just found it a few minutes ago! So far it's not looking good! I'm definitely a newbie when it comes to dog training and am really getting more into the learning aspect of it. What are the cons of this certain training chain?


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> The "Sit means sit collar" is an e-collar. They use it on young puppies, I've definitely seen it on 6 month old dogs if not younger. There is a LOT of nicking. Anything that promises quick results is a scam, basically. You don't train a dog in an instant or even a day. I am not a fan.


It is absolutely absurd to start training with an e-collar. I personally would not even end with it, but can concede to the fact that in other people's hands it can be a powerful tool. The thought of starting a young puppy's training with electricity is abhorrent.

Additionally, as with chain anything, the training is only as good as the trainer. In the hands of a poorly skilled trainer, an e-collar is abuse.


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## EscVelocity (Mar 31, 2011)

I don't like it, that dog was in distress the whole time. There is no way that training is permanent, and I do not think it could be (that dog would definitely tear that guy up, given the opportunity.). It is risky to train an already aggressive dog with fear; fear triggers the fight or flight response, and that dog would surely take it out on the owners. The owners are probably at fault why other training methods didn't work, they didn't seem like good, confident owners to choose that breed. I hope people don't get a false sense of security training an aggressive dog with the e-collar. The best training comes from gaining your dogs loyalty and respect.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

http://www.smilesandwags.com/Pat Miller's 12 Pitfalls of Positive Punishment.html

Using punishment as a training tool (especially in the absence of positive reinforcement and teaching of appropriate behaviours) has great risks that have to be considered. I have seen this video and that dog is HIGHLY stressed during the "training" and IMO the behaviour may have been supressed, but that does not make the dog safe, nor does it change how the dog feels about the stressor. This makes for a ticking time bomb of a dog that doesn't show the unwanted behaviour but may someday be pushed overthreshold by multiple triggers and suddenly "blow". 

It is also a great way to crush a dog. Learned helplessness is a real issue in animals (including humans) that have had extreme supression of behaviour. It is unhealthy, not only mentally but physically as well.

I also believe, personally, that using an ecollar to train simple behaviours (which Sit Means Sit does) is unethical and unfair to the dog. Wanting to quickly achieve behaviours is a patience problem on the part of the human in the equation...haste makes waste and I hate to see a good dog wasted.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

fred hasson (founder) has a rep of being heavy handed and a tad remote happy. As with anything it depends on the individual trainer though. some buy into the franchise w lots of outside exp or expand their knowledge afterwards. the aggression training shown is (IMO) stimming the dog at high levels when it shows aggression until it shuts down. To be diplomatic id say thats not the prevailing view on how to treat aggression from either side of the aversive fence


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

I 100% agree with Cracker and the others.
There are much better ways to train rather than hurting or scaring a dog. Even a dog with "aggression" issues can be turned around using desensitization and counter conditioning. Absolutely no need to shock a dog.

If somone says it doesn't hurt, it probably does http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/2011/05/when-someone-says-its-doesnt-hurt-it-probably-does/

Counter Conditioning and desensitization - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WOFKPshhYQ

Read some great books on positive based training. So when you find a trainer, you can compare what he/she does with what you read and you can decide to stay with that trainer or not.

Things like sit, stay, come, down, etc.. can all be taught without touching, without shocker. Run away from any trainer who promises quick results, run away from any trainer who uses force - yanks, pushing, kicking, slapping, shocking, etc..

Family Friendly dog training: http://amzn.to/idncsU
Before and After Getting Your New Puppy: http://amzn.to/fb7poY


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

>>> Before and After Getting Your New Puppy

Note: you can download Dunbar's books for free from: http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads

An e-collar is deceptive on a Pit, because there is the chance that the dog will learn to ignore the shock, unless turned up too high... Although I can't train aggressive dogs, there is nothing good about this video, except as an example of what not to do.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> there is nothing good about this video, except as an example of what not to do.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Just my non-soft side talking, but if I had a dog who displayed "severe aggression issues" at 3 months old, I would re-consider keeping such a liability...JMO of course.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Puddin's Training Tips said:


> I 100% agree with Cracker and the others.
> There are much better ways to train rather than hurting or scaring a dog. Even a dog with "aggression" issues can be turned around using desensitization and counter conditioning. Absolutely no need to shock a dog.
> 
> If somone says it doesn't hurt, it probably does http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/2011/05/when-someone-says-its-doesnt-hurt-it-probably-does/
> ...


While I generally agree with your statements, I have to say I have used an e-collar, one of the top brands for gun dog training. Before I put it on my dog I put it on my own neck, and turned it to full blast and pushed the button. It has settings from 1 to 10 and I used a 10 on my own neck. It did not cause pain, it did get my attention though as it contracted the muscles in my neck.

This is the exact same technology they use for physical therapy in humans, and I have had that hooked to my arm as well and had the PT turn it up, to close my fist against my wishes. It was much stronger then the collar set at 10.

My dog used it set at 2.5, and at that level on my neck it feels like a tap, or a lizard or very large bug landing on my neck. Distracting and attention getting surely but not painful.

It depends on the trainer and methods though, and that vid for me wasn't enough to really tell what they were doing to the dog really. I never had a problem with aggression with my dog, just a headstrong dog with a very high prey drive. The e-collar was all I have found that will break her OCD like focus on the prey, at any range, so I can then desensitize or otherwise train her to not to bolt after it. It's as much a safety thing as anything, stop means stop, she would run right under a car tire without ever even seeing the car coming if she was after something..

I'm also a believer that all the basic common forms of learning are valid. Dogs, humans, and basically every other animal learn from consequences to our actions.

Negative consequences are learned from just as much as positive consequences, touch a hot burner and you won't do it again.. That some things might be even better learned from negative consequences, and other things learned better from positive consequences.

The challenge when applying a negative consequence to a dog, is that the dog must properly connect the consequence to the proper action. This is not a simple thing to do at all. If the dog doesn't attribute the negative consequence to the proper action it learns nothing, or learns the wrong thing.

Which is why using positive methods is generally better, as it is easier and mistakes are less of a problem even when made.

As for the OP and the video, there isn't really enough information in a single video like that to really form an intelligent opinion of the specific trainer.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

TxRider said:


> While I generally agree with your statements, I have to say I have used an e-collar, one of the top brands for gun dog training. Before I put it on my dog I put it on my own neck, and turned it to full blast and pushed the button. It has settings from 1 to 10 and I used a 10 on my own neck. It did not cause pain, it did get my attention though as it contracted the muscles in my neck.
> 
> This is the exact same technology they use for physical therapy in humans, and I have had that hooked to my arm as well and had the PT turn it up, to close my fist against my wishes. It was much stronger then the collar set at 10.
> 
> My dog used it set at 2.5, and at that level on my neck it feels like a tap, or a lizard or very large bug landing on my neck. Distracting and attention getting surely but not painful.


My only problem with this is that how you perceive the sensation is useless information. The collar isn't being used to change your behavior. Of COURSE the collar is extremely unpleasant for the dog. The entire idea is based on the dog wanting the collar stim to stop. So the collar has to be more unpleasant than other things are pleasant. It does not always have to be used to light the dog up, and I suspect that it can work similar to how we can build a history of reinforcement with R+ such that we can pay cheaply for expensive behaviors, but saying "it just gets the dog's attention, it doesn't hurt them" is extremely misleading.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> My only problem with this is that how you perceive the sensation is useless information. The collar isn't being used to change your behavior. Of COURSE the collar is extremely unpleasant for the dog. The entire idea is based on the dog wanting the collar stim to stop. So the collar has to be more unpleasant than other things are pleasant. It does not always have to be used to light the dog up, and I suspect that it can work similar to how we can build a history of reinforcement with R+ such that we can pay cheaply for expensive behaviors, but saying "it just gets the dog's attention, it doesn't hurt them" is extremely misleading.


Actually, it doesn't have to be "extremely unpleasant". When using a collar the first thing you do is find the correct level for that dog, and this is done by setting it at the lowest possible level, then stepping it up until you see reaction from the dog. But this reaction is NOT a screaming, jumping, crying dog. It's an ear flick, the slight turn of the head, etc. More of a "what was that" reaction, like what you might get if you tapped them on the side. The stim on a collar can be used for many things, not just "BAM you have been corrected". And it can be used just to get their attention, and give them information. There are some Belgian Ring videos out there which show a dog with a collar at the base of it's tail, one around it's waist, and one around it's neck. The neck one having 2 units on it. Not so they can hit the dog doubly hard, though that is what most people think. Each of those collars is used to give the dog information. A tap from the tail one can be used to tell the dog to go forward. For example, when it's doing the guard of object, waiting for the person to get close enough to bite. Something the dog really wants to do. The tail collar isn't used as a correction to keep the dog from biting, it's used as a signal "hey, he's close enough, you can bite now". The neck collar can be used as a signal to turn left or right, kind of like the leg contact you make with a horse. There is more to these methods, but that gives a very small idea of what the collars can be used for, other than "BAM"

Anyway, ecollar does not automatically equal "hit the dog on high to create a strong adversive as a punishment". 

That said, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with previous posters about how it's being used in this specific situation.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

My only problem with this is that how you perceive the sensation is useless information. The collar isn't being used to change your behavior. 

E-stim is also used in Dog PT. are they torturing the dog in physical therapy?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the "i put it on myself" argument is old and inapplicable. there is data that shows dogs are far far far more sensitive to electrical current than we are. the data comes from work done on storm fear. Claiming it doesn't hurt them because it doesn't hurt you is anthropomorphic and intellectually lazy. 

carry on.

edit to clarify: that is not to say anything about what it DOES feel like to them...just that you can't say it feels the same to them that it does to you.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the "i put it on myself" argument is old and inapplicable. there is data that shows dogs are far far far more sensitive to electrical current than we are. the data comes from work done on storm fear. Claiming it doesn't hurt them because it doesn't hurt you is anthropomorphic and intellectually lazy.
> 
> carry on.
> 
> edit to clarify: that is not to say anything about what it DOES feel like to them...just that you can't say it feels the same to them that it does to you.


It's no more intellectually lazy than your response is, in fact less so as I at least presented real data, you have not. You dismiss it out of hand without any valid data to back up your assertion whatsoever.

We are both mammals, we both have basically the same nervous system, we both feel pain similarly, we are comparative at some level. You cannot simply dismiss the validity of that, of comparative biology and carefully observable results when using the collar appropriately..

And as stated, the same tech is used in dog PT, Human PT, etc. and works the same way in each.

I didn't use it to apply a negative consequence, or to punish. The level is set by having the dog just wander like she normally does and starting at zero and looking for the tiniest response.. A "what was that?" reaction you might see the dog do if say a june bug landed on a dog or a mosquito bit the dog or you touched the dog. When you see the first reaction you stay at that setting.

The same exact thing would work for me, and does actually. I too get focused on things and can have a cooworker walk in get through several sentences without me hearing a word they said.. They have to get my attention and break my focus, a tap on the shoulder or something. Same thing. And using the collar in the same fashion, a setting I barely notice but gets my attention, would work just fine and be quite painless. Difference is I can now touch her from across an open field.

If I had gotten Hope as a pup I would never have needed it, as I could have directed her instincts better. But I tried an e-collar and it worked well for her. Safer than having her hitting the end of a leash in mid air, safer as I can stop her now from running in front of a car, and safer as now I can actually get her attention and break her focus and get it on me where I can then use other methods to desensitize.

But just to toss out there that the fact that it doesn't cause me pain is totally irrelevant is simply a load of horse puckey as that assertion is backed up even less than my comparitive test, and backed up less than carefully observed behavior that the dog shows, which also shows no indiciation of pain.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

dantero said:


> Actually, it doesn't have to be "extremely unpleasant". When using a collar the first thing you do is find the correct level for that dog, and this is done by setting it at the lowest possible level, then stepping it up until you see reaction from the dog. But this reaction is NOT a screaming, jumping, crying dog. It's an ear flick, the slight turn of the head, etc. More of a "what was that" reaction, like what you might get if you tapped them on the side. The stim on a collar can be used for many things, not just "BAM you have been corrected". And it can be used just to get their attention, and give them information. There are some Belgian Ring videos out there which show a dog with a collar at the base of it's tail, one around it's waist, and one around it's neck. The neck one having 2 units on it. Not so they can hit the dog doubly hard, though that is what most people think. Each of those collars is used to give the dog information. A tap from the tail one can be used to tell the dog to go forward. For example, when it's doing the guard of object, waiting for the person to get close enough to bite. Something the dog really wants to do. The tail collar isn't used as a correction to keep the dog from biting, it's used as a signal "hey, he's close enough, you can bite now". The neck collar can be used as a signal to turn left or right, kind of like the leg contact you make with a horse. There is more to these methods, but that gives a very small idea of what the collars can be used for, other than "BAM"
> 
> Anyway, ecollar does not automatically equal "hit the dog on high to create a strong adversive as a punishment".
> 
> That said, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with previous posters about how it's being used in this specific situation.


I guess I can concede that, and I have heard other anecdotes about e-collar as cue and information. I still have a very strong negative reaction to the thought of their use, and that is enough for me to know I could never be effective using one.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> fred hasson (founder) has a rep of being heavy handed and a tad remote happy. As with anything it depends on the individual trainer though. some buy into the franchise w lots of outside exp or expand their knowledge afterwards. the aggression training shown is (IMO) stimming the dog at high levels when it shows aggression until it shuts down. To be diplomatic id say thats not the prevailing view on how to treat aggression from either side of the aversive fence


A "tad" remote happy? You are too kind. It appeared to me that the dog's breathing never changed. The dog was still very stressed, just in a state of learned helplessness (his usual strategies weren't working and he was learning that anything except being still and looking at the handler brings discomfort). If you try to stop aggression without addressing the underlying cause, all you do is surpress behavior. And that may work for a while. Until someone makes a mistake or gets careless or lax. Generally, bad habits don't form in an hour or two. They are learned over months or even years. Expecting someone to "fix" it in a few minutes is unreasonable and often leads to abuse and eventually failure.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I've said it before and I'll repeat it when hit with e-collar stim some dogs may jump 4 or 5 ft straight up, some have actually attacked the ground and occasionally some will bite handler. There are some that can/will be trained properly with an experienced owner/trainer/handler.

I cannot imagine any body using one on a pup but the world is full of idiots and anything is possible.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

jiml said:


> My only problem with this is that how you perceive the sensation is useless information. The collar isn't being used to change your behavior.
> 
> E-stim is also used in Dog PT. are they torturing the dog in physical therapy?


And I don't believe it is useless information. It may not be 100% correlative, but it isn't 0% correlative either. Especially when observed behavior backs it up 100%.

It would be just as silly as saying just because you can clicker train a dolphin, it is useless information when considering whether or not you could clicker train a dog or cat. Just as silly to say that just because I find a food reward a good positive reinforcer for me as a human, it is useless information when considering whether a food reward is good positive reinforcer for a dog.

We are similar enough as mammals that you can indeed carry much over from speces to species, in fact it's something we depend on...

And the fact that the dog responds to starting at setting zero and moving up .5 of a setting at a time until it is noticeable, and the fact that it became noticeable at about the same setting for both me and Hope, around 2.5, says more to me than someone's uninformed post and "feelings" about it, and that me and my dog do feel it similarly enough to be quite useful..


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dantero said:


> Actually, it doesn't have to be "extremely unpleasant". When using a collar the first thing you do is find the correct level for that dog, and this is done by setting it at the lowest possible level, then stepping it up until you see reaction from the dog. But this reaction is NOT a screaming, jumping, crying dog. It's an ear flick, the slight turn of the head, etc. More of a "what was that" reaction, like what you might get if you tapped them on the side. The stim on a collar can be used for many things, not just "BAM you have been corrected". And it can be used just to get their attention, and give them information. There are some Belgian Ring videos out there which show a dog with a collar at the base of it's tail, one around it's waist, and one around it's neck. The neck one having 2 units on it. Not so they can hit the dog doubly hard, though that is what most people think. Each of those collars is used to give the dog information. A tap from the tail one can be used to tell the dog to go forward. For example, when it's doing the guard of object, waiting for the person to get close enough to bite. Something the dog really wants to do. The tail collar isn't used as a correction to keep the dog from biting, it's used as a signal "hey, he's close enough, you can bite now". The neck collar can be used as a signal to turn left or right, kind of like the leg contact you make with a horse. There is more to these methods, but that gives a very small idea of what the collars can be used for, other than "BAM"
> 
> Anyway, ecollar does not automatically equal "hit the dog on high to create a strong adversive as a punishment".
> 
> That said, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with previous posters about how it's being used in this specific situation.


Huh. that sounds just like Ami Moore.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

wvasko said:


> I've said it before and I'll repeat it when hit with e-collar stim some dogs may jump 4 or 5 ft straight up, some have actually attacked the ground and occasionally some will bite handler. There are some that can/will be trained properly with an experienced owner/trainer/handler.
> 
> I cannot imagine any body using one on a pup but the world is full of idiots and anything is possible.


I would have no use for one on a puppy either, not to say someone else might not though..

And I also used it on two dogs, with a pretty long post and log of doing so recorded here in a post.. I found it worked very well on Hope, and was pretty useless on Kaya. So at least from my experience it's like any other training tool and is dog dependent, at least used the way I did with the smallest observable response as your setting.

If your use is hitting a dog at a strong level as an aversive, it's a whole different ball game, and I would expect some dogs not to respond to it well at all. 

I can confirm that hitting my neck with it set at 10 was not a pleasant experience in any way... but it wasn't a taser either... nor did it burn or hurt as that is physically impossible.. It was a very hard and strong muscle contraction.. it's hard to compare but maybe the most apt I can come up with would be a hard smack by big open hand when set at 10. I would compare that to smacking my dog with an open hand. It wasn't as bad as say touching an electric fence, or grabbing a spark plug wire, or getting hit with household 120v all of which I have also experienced quite enough.

But then even a clicker doesn't work on all dogs... Hope is awesome with clicker learning... Kaya runs under the bed and starts shivering when you click a clicker, even a ball point pen. You can't even crack open pistachios or pecans with her in the room, I can't even open my pocket knife as the click scares her to death. Clicking a clicker anywhere around her was far more stressing than an e-collar.

I don't demonize any tool or method out of hand..


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dantero said:


> Actually, it doesn't have to be "extremely unpleasant". When using a collar the first thing you do is find the correct level for that dog, and this is done by setting it at the lowest possible level, then stepping it up until you see reaction from the dog. But this reaction is NOT a screaming, jumping, crying dog. It's an ear flick, the slight turn of the head, etc. More of a "what was that" reaction, like what you might get if you tapped them on the side. The stim on a collar can be used for many things, not just "BAM you have been corrected". And it can be used just to get their attention, and give them information. There are some Belgian Ring videos out there which show a dog with a collar at the base of it's tail, one around it's waist, and one around it's neck. The neck one having 2 units on it. Not so they can hit the dog doubly hard, though that is what most people think. Each of those collars is used to give the dog information. A tap from the tail one can be used to tell the dog to go forward. For example, when it's doing the guard of object, waiting for the person to get close enough to bite. Something the dog really wants to do. The tail collar isn't used as a correction to keep the dog from biting, it's used as a signal "hey, he's close enough, you can bite now". The neck collar can be used as a signal to turn left or right, kind of like the leg contact you make with a horse. There is more to these methods, but that gives a very small idea of what the collars can be used for, other than "BAM"
> 
> Anyway, ecollar does not automatically equal "hit the dog on high to create a strong adversive as a punishment".
> 
> That said, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with previous posters about how it's being used in this specific situation.


Actually, I've heard from people that have attended Fred Hassen seminars that there is a fair amount of dog screaming/jumping/crying while people are trying to find the "right" level. Honestly, it doesn't have to be awfully unpleasant all the time (if the dog knows there can be more electricity where that came from, a threat may work perfectly well). But, it does have to be aversive to work as either negative reinforcement or positive punishment. Otherwise it wouldn't work. And I'd trust people more if they admitted that it IS uncomfortable, that's why it works, and they don't mind that it causes their dog discomfort as long as it works. Otherwise I really don't know if they are deluding themselves or just trying to delude me.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> But, it does have to be aversive to work as either negative reinforcement or positive punishment. Otherwise it wouldn't work.


But it doesn't have to be used as a negative reinforcer or a positive punishment. No more than a hand clap, a whistle or a leash or muzzle or such is.

The class I attended was a rolling class, with likely 30-40 dogs using collars I got to observe for a month or two before deciding to try one. It was not required for the class but an option, one many if not most there tried. There was no yelping or jumping or crying... at all, none. Well the huskies present did tend to cry like babies when they had to stay in an excercise and their masters walked off to a distance... but that was about it, and they were simply tethered.

In fact one of the things that interested me enough to try it was the trainer's use of the e-collar with his stone deaf Australian cattle dog, and watching him introduce several dogs to the collar with zero indication of pain or punishment.. The trainer after having building some rapport with my dogs was the one who introduced them to it and set the levels.

He could get his deaf dog to look to him at any time, under any distraction, from any range... Where he could then give visual signals to the dog. That allowed him to have his dog out off leash and under good off leash control, and the dog was fine with it. Heck Hope goes nuts with anticipation and excitement when I put hers on, as it generally means we are going to class, going to somewhere she can run off leash, or something else full of fun. I can't even pick it up off the charger or pick up the radio without her wanting to jump all over me... It's as bad as when I come home late from work.

Not saying that's what they are doing in the OP's video, but one short edited video realistically isn't enough to make an intelligent opinion from. I would have to know a lot more about the trainer, the dog, and the sessions.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Huh. that sounds just like Ami Moore.


Don't know who Ami Moore is.



Pawzk9 said:


> Actually, I've heard from people that have attended Fred Hassen seminars that there is a fair amount of dog screaming/jumping/crying while people are trying to find the "right" level. Honestly, it doesn't have to be awfully unpleasant all the time (if the dog knows there can be more electricity where that came from, a threat may work perfectly well). But, it does have to be aversive to work as either negative reinforcement or positive punishment. Otherwise it wouldn't work. And I'd trust people more if they admitted that it IS uncomfortable, that's why it works, and they don't mind that it causes their dog discomfort as long as it works. Otherwise I really don't know if they are deluding themselves or just trying to delude me.


So because you heard from people who attended Fred's seminars that this was happening, that means it happens every time anyone uses this tool for training? And it's the only way someone could ever use this tool?

The only dog I've ever seen scream/jump/cry when introduced to electric correctly was actually one of my own dogs. And she is so sensitive that she felt it at the lowest possible setting and jumped 3 feet sideways and didn't want to go anywhere near that patch of grass afterwards. After that first initial big start she didn't startle like that again, but the stress was very obvious. She never wore the collar again, it was obviously NOT a good choice for her. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a good choice for some of my other dogs. I've seen many other dogs introduced to the collar, and introduced a few myself, none had this reaction.

I'm not denying in the least that the ecollar can be used to cause pain. But it's not the ONLY way the collar can be used. And that's my point. Pretty much any training tool can be used both positively and negatively. Even as one poster mentioned the clicker, for her dog it's a very negative experience just to hear that sound. Even a food item could be a punishment to some dogs, if they don't like that specific food. I have a dog that loves to eat jalepeno's, I could use them as a training aid if I wanted to. Actually she's the same dog I mentioned as the "jumper". Other's might use it as a form of correction.

Anyway, back to the original comments, I'm simply pointing out that the tool does not automatically mean abusive training, or training that causes discomfort, or whatever. It's about the person using the tool.

I guess I should add that I don't use the collar on all my dogs, or even as one of my regular training tools. But it is something I have in my bag, and I do use in certain circumstances. And I'm more interested in seeing how someone is using a tool before giving an opinion, than automatically praising or berating them just because of a specific tool. I've seen to many "positive methods" used in negative ways, and to many things that are supposedly negative used in positive ways to make assumptions.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> You don't want to know what I think of this "training"



I will tell you what I think. I think he (the founder) should be arrested for animal cruelty and so should many of his followers but that is me. I don't see this as a good way to train. I am not opposed to using an e-collar to reinforce a behavior in a "trained dog" but the way they use it to me is wrong.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

TxRider said:


> But it doesn't have to be used as a negative reinforcer or a positive punishment. No more than a hand clap, a whistle or a leash or muzzle or such is.
> 
> The class I attended was a rolling class, with likely 30-40 dogs using collars I got to observe for a month or two before deciding to try one. It was not required for the class but an option, one many if not most there tried. There was no yelping or jumping or crying... at all, none. Well the huskies present did tend to cry like babies when they had to stay in an excercise and their masters walked off to a distance... but that was about it, and they were simply tethered.
> 
> ...


So, if it's nothing more than a hand clap or a whistle, why do it? I mean, clapping your hands doesn't cost $200+. Why do you need an ecollar to be able to have your dog off lead? I can sort of see it with a deaf dog, used in certain ways. But your dog hears, right? You should be able to get her attention without needing shock.



dantero said:


> Don't know who Ami Moore is..



Might want to do an internet search. It's a pretty interesting read.



dantero said:


> So because you heard from people who attended Fred's seminars that this was happening, that means it happens every time anyone uses this tool for training? And it's the only way someone could ever use this tool?..


 Umn, can you show me where I said that, please?



dantero said:


> The only dog I've ever seen scream/jump/cry when introduced to electric correctly was actually one of my own dogs. And she is so sensitive that she felt it at the lowest possible setting and jumped 3 feet sideways and didn't want to go anywhere near that patch of grass afterwards. After that first initial big start she didn't startle like that again, but the stress was very obvious. She never wore the collar again, it was obviously NOT a good choice for her. But that doesn't mean it wasn't a good choice for some of my other dogs. I've seen many other dogs introduced to the collar, and introduced a few myself, none had this reaction.
> 
> I'm not denying in the least that the ecollar can be used to cause pain. But it's not the ONLY way the collar can be used. And that's my point. Pretty much any training tool can be used both positively and negatively. Even as one poster mentioned the clicker, for her dog it's a very negative experience just to hear that sound. Even a food item could be a punishment to some dogs, if they don't like that specific food. I have a dog that loves to eat jalepeno's, I could use them as a training aid if I wanted to. Actually she's the same dog I mentioned as the "jumper". Other's might use it as a form of correction.
> 
> ...


So, can you explain to me how an ecollar is generally used which does not cause discomfort (or at least threat of discomfort?) My point was that in the Fred Hassen video posted (and every other Fred Hassen video I've seen,) the tool is being used in a way that I would not be comfortable using it. And, I've never seen any dog who wasn't working to get the finger off the button. Just sayin'.



TxRider said:


> I would have no use for one on a puppy either, not to say someone else might not though..
> 
> And I also used it on two dogs, with a pretty long post and log of doing so recorded here in a post.. I found it worked very well on Hope, and was pretty useless on Kaya. So at least from my experience it's like any other training tool and is dog dependent, at least used the way I did with the smallest observable response as your setting.
> 
> ...


Are you working on CC and DS to sounds? It seems like a shame to have a dog that fearful of common sounds and not work to help her through it. Perhaps you are working on it (I hope?)


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> So, if it's nothing more than a hand clap or a whistle, why do it? I mean, clapping your hands doesn't cost $200+. Why do you need an ecollar to be able to have your dog off lead? I can sort of see it with a deaf dog, used in certain ways. But your dog hears, right? You should be able to get her attention without needing shock.


I didn't say it was nothing more than a hand clap or whistle... Just that it doesn't have to be any more of an aversive than one. Depends on the dog, the situation, and the trainer. Getting Hope's attention when any prey item is in sight, even at the farthest range she can see it from is not an easy thing to do, and sound does not work. Food does not work. Physical means do work with her, but I don't like to use them. I have found the collar to work very well for her, it's physical but not painful or damaging. It opens the door for me to use other methods.



> Are you working on CC and DS to sounds? It seems like a shame to have a dog that fearful of common sounds and not work to help her through it. Perhaps you are working on it (I hope?)


I took Kaya on as a HW+ foster about a year and half ago. She was a pregnant street stray picked up by animal control.

I have tried a lot of things to help Kaya's fear of sounds, with some success. I spent most of the time though getting rid of her fear of all people, especially of kids, and of other dogs... and obedience training basics. More of a safety thing as she was a real fear biting risk to any child that approached her, as I found out when she almost bit a little girl who ran up to pet her (she's a very cute dog) would bite any dog that approached her, and less so but still a risk to any adult that approached her. She also was a terrible barrier aggressor and fence fighter. All of it due to fear of basically everything in the world... If she could not flee, she bit, or shut down entirely.

A good year of lots of desensitizing on pretty much a daily basis did wonders for all that and she's fairly well balanced these days... Safe for kids to approach and actually enjoys it.. Does ok now with strange dogs, not excellent, but ok. I never saw her play bow until I had her a year.. Now she does it a lot with new dogs.

The whole fear of clicks and pops thing I tried to help, but everything seemed to not help at all or make ot worse. I could click once and give a real good treat, even muffled in a towel, click again later and she became afraid of the food treat and would never eat that treat again, or at least not for a few months. Tough case that girl, she took it as a reinforcement for being afraid I think. The only other option I could think of working would just be immersion, playing the sounds like on a CD in a loop all the time until she just got over it... but that would have been too cruel for me to do even if it would work. Honestly I don't know how far she can be helped with it.

I adopted her out to my parents, who are retired and around 80, a couple months ago. She has a lot quieter life there out in the middle of nowhere on their acreage being doted over, though she still freaks out when someone in the area shoots a gun or some such. I'll have to watch though that she doesn't revert from being without a lot of interaction with a lot of people like I gave her, and become a bite risk to visitors.. I think my dad is taking her to town to petsmart with him and such so she may be ok.

Now I can give my undivided attention back to Hope, and get her self control and obedience worked up where it needs to be. She needs it, and always will. She's great loving goofy loyal GSD, I love her to death, but boy when that little switch in her brain for prey get's switched, she all focus and determination to the point of obsession. Must be one heck of an adrenaline and dopamine rush she gets at that moment to have that kind of an effect... Eventually I think I could desensitize her to that, maybe by the time she is 10-11 years old..


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

So, can you explain to me how an ecollar is generally used which does not cause discomfort (or at least threat of discomfort?) My point was that in the Fred Hassen video posted (and every other Fred Hassen video I've seen,) the tool is being used in a way that I would not be comfortable using it. And, I've never seen any dog who wasn't working to get the finger off the button. Just sayin'.
>>>>

I do know of some that use it as a long range (capable) clicker. It is mostly used as you say either for correction or escape/avoidance. 
http://www.youtube.com/user/ThatsMyDogInc#p/u/5/05EDolAErRk
(note: the lady in the vid was at one time Fred Hassen's partner in the No-Limitations seminars)

on lower settings of a good collar I would doubt anyone who said its truly painful. If Tx really turned it all the way up and didnt think it was painful she has a higher tolerance than me.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

If the e-collar doesn't work on pain and fear and if you are using it as a "clicker" then why not just use a vibrating collar to get your dog's attention. I don't understand shocking the dog.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Puddin's Training Tips said:


> If the e-collar doesn't work on pain and fear and if you are using it as a "clicker" then why not just use a vibrating collar to get your dog's attention. I don't understand shocking the dog.


Expensive e-collars are better made. Better range, higher quality, etc. I don't know that I'd trust the vibrating collars I've seen to hold up 300 yards away with brush and water in between.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RaeganW said:


> Expensive e-collars are better made. Better range, higher quality, etc. I don't know that I'd trust the vibrating collars I've seen to hold up 300 yards away with brush and water in between.


But they still work on the same principle? Just with more settings. As to the vibrating feature - they are generally something found on those expensive ecollars. I'm not sure why they would be less dependable than the shock feature. I do wish someone would make a collar that JUST vibrates though.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

TxRider said:


> My dog used it set at 2.5, and at that level on my neck it feels like a tap, or a lizard or very large bug landing on my neck. Distracting and attention getting surely but not painful.
> 
> It depends on the trainer and methods though, and that vid for me wasn't enough to really tell what they were doing to the dog really. I never had a problem with aggression with my dog, just a headstrong dog with a very high prey drive. The e-collar was all I have found that will break her OCD like focus on the prey, at any range, so I can then desensitize or otherwise train her to not to bolt after it. It's as much a safety thing as anything, stop means stop, she would run right under a car tire without ever even seeing the car coming if she was after something..





TxRider said:


> I didn't use it to apply a negative consequence, or to punish. The level is set by having the dog just wander like she normally does and starting at zero and looking for the tiniest response.. A "what was that?" reaction you might see the dog do if say a june bug landed on a dog or a mosquito bit the dog or you touched the dog. When you see the first reaction you stay at that setting.


So .. staying at a level 2.5 mosquito bite / june bug "tap" is sufficient to break your dog's "OCD-like focus on the prey", at any range, repeatedly as required ... without the tap holding some form of negative consequence, it's just a mere "touch" ? ... really ??? If the tap itself is not the negative, then what would the actual consequence be ? and would it immediately follow the tap ? ... just curious, as I'm not sure of the mechanics of this if the tap is not a negative.





TxRider said:


> I too get focused on things and can have a cooworker walk in get through several sentences without me hearing a word they said.. They have to get my attention and break my focus, a tap on the shoulder or something. Same thing.


Same thing ? mmm I dunno, it depends on what the person does for a living ... if you were to compare a person with intense focus similar to your dog's OCD focus, ... like say an air traffic controller or brain surgeon etc, ... getting that person to relinquish their focus will require more than a simple tap on the shoulder I would think. In fact, at some specific high-pressure moments, nothing short of a nuclear blast will cause them to even blink. IOW, with regards to the dog ... a higher than 2.5 "touch" type of setting will be needed.

IMO, escalation is one of the inherent problems with using an e collar regardless of whether it's used for so-called attention or as P+. When 2.5 doesn't work anymore / doesn't fit the distraction, .. then crank it up to 3. 
When 3 isn't sufficient to gain attention over the distraction du jour, .. turn it up to 4 .... and so on and so on.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> So .. staying at a level 2.5 mosquito bite / june bug "tap" is sufficient to break your dog's "OCD-like focus on the prey", at any range, repeatedly as required ... without the tap holding some form of negative consequence, it's just a mere "touch" ? ... really ??? If the tap itself is not the negative, then what would the actual consequence be ? and would it immediately follow the tap ? ... just curious, as I'm not sure of the mechanics of this if the tap is not a negative.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where's my "Like" button . . . .If it's only a tap on the shoulder, why are all the other levels there? I really think that there are many people who truly are convinced that it is just a mild attention getter. I think the dogs might describe it as something else.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

TxRider said:


> But then even a clicker doesn't work on all dogs... Hope is awesome with clicker learning... Kaya runs under the bed and starts shivering when you click a clicker, even a ball point pen. You can't even crack open pistachios or pecans with her in the room, I can't even open my pocket knife as the click scares her to death. Clicking a clicker anywhere around her was far more stressing than an e-collar.
> 
> I don't demonize any tool or method out of hand..


You can't make me think that marker training doesn't work for every dog. It work for wild animals, zoos train their animals using markers. It works off the basic assumption that if a behaviour is rewarded, it is more likely to happen again. This happens in ALL animals. If it didn't, the species wouldn't survive.

I am sure the CLICKER doesn't work for all animals, but a clicker is not the only marker you can use. You can use any sound you want. In your case you could probably use a word or a dog whistle or similar, and it would do the same job as the clicker, and Kaya would respond just as well as Hope.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

TxRider said:


> It's no more intellectually lazy than your response is, in fact less so as I at least presented real data, you have not. You dismiss it out of hand without any valid data to back up your assertion whatsoever.
> 
> We are both mammals, we both have basically the same nervous system, we both feel pain similarly, we are comparative at some level. You cannot simply dismiss the validity of that, of comparative biology and carefully observable results when using the collar appropriately..
> 
> ...


I think that a big difference is that when you put the collar on yourself (wearing what kind of shoes? Rubber soles are a great "ground") you know what to expect and you know what is happening. As far as what is used for health and therapy - I have a dog who last week had his shoulder opened up and his flank opened up. He had bone scraped off the pelvis and inserted into the break in his humerus. Then he had four pins driven into the bone and muscle and attached to a bar sitting just outside his shoulder. I would never do that to him to teach him something, no matter how important. But I'd do it to save a leg. I also on occasion have dogs who get needles poked into their muscles for vaccination or various other reasons. I also wouldn't do that for training purposes. So not sure if that is a very valid comparison.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I didn't like any of that. =[


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

if you are using it as a "clicker" then why not just use a vibrating collar to get your dog's attention. I don't understand shocking the dog.>>>>>>

ok, I know some people have that feeling w electricity. I am telling you from exp. A good collar, lets say a dogtra w 127 levels, feels way milder if set properly than Vibe ever will on the same collar. There is one company unleashed technology that makes Variable Vibe.

I think that a big difference is that when you put the collar on yourself (wearing what kind of shoes? Rubber soles are a great "ground") >>>>>

the circuit is between the two probes shoes make no diff. I have put E-stim on literally thousands of people none has thought it painful on lower levels, although what one would consider low varies.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

jiml said:


> http://www.youtube.com/user/ThatsMyDogInc#p/u/5/05EDolAErRk


You can clearly see the dog's demeanor change once the collar has been put in place and *ahem* "proper setting" has been determined, off-camera. 
A wagging tail does not always mean a happy / willing dog; if you watch the dog's reluctance to come close to the trainer (aside from the food lures), and reluctance to put his butt on the ground, then I'd say it's more of a stress wag.
In the vid, the trainer uses it mostly as a marker in a positive sense, but then turns around and uses it to correct the dog's inattention. Seems totalling confusing to me, and I'd bet the dog feels the same way.


There's also this similar video as well ... http://www.youtube.com/user/fredhassen#p/u/28/rAGDdF_oWLk
"both sides of the coin" ? ... hmmm


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree with Pepper... However...

Re: Needles for training... My Lab-mix is usually unconcerned about shots. In fact, I get worried when a vet tech sticks him and makes him whimper, because it is so unusual to hear. ... But, I don't think needles would work for trainiing him 

Re: E-Collar: I'm not an e-collar expert, but for people, electricity creates two main reactions. 
1) It makes the muscle contract, which may not be painful, and may not even be that uncomfortable, depending on voltage and on the person.
2) It can pain across the nerve, independent of muscle reactions. Some people are very sensitive to this and some are not that sensitive. I think this may be related to skin conductance and to amperage.
3) High voltage can cause minor burns with low amperage. But hgh amperage can cause signficant burns with comparatively low voltage

These are poorly remembered facts, so the details may be a little off, but the general concepts are correct, and may help people make decisions about using an e-collar.

Altho I don't recommend e-collars, I applaud their use on the lowest setting for deaf dogs... but I agree that a pure vibrate collar would make me feel better.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Re: Needles for training... My Lab-mix is usually unconcerned about shots. In fact, I get worried when a vet tech sticks him and makes him whimper, because it is so unusual to hear. ... But, I don't think needles would work for trainiing him


Oh my, I was thinking of a blowgun training program, guess I'll have to go a different way


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

lil_fuzzy said:


> You can't make me think that marker training doesn't work for every dog. It work for wild animals, zoos train their animals using markers.


But if you talk to the trainers at zoos and other places that are using marker training, they will tell you it's not 100% reliable at getting the desired behavior. Sometimes the animals just aren't interested in cooperating. At which point they either have to use some sort of adversive, be it withholding food, social isolation, or even in some cases physical correction, or accept that they aren't going to get the behavior at that time. 

This is IMO the downside of the "purely positive" training approach. I have never met a dog trained without any compulsion/adversives that performed at the level of reliability I want from my dogs. And I mean really trained without compulsion/adversives, not someone who says they don't use them but then has a very soft dog who falls apart with a verbal correction, so they say they have never used corrections because they have never physically corrected the dog.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

jiml said:


> if you are using it as a "clicker" then why not just use a vibrating collar to get your dog's attention. I don't understand shocking the dog.>>>>>>
> 
> ok, I know some people have that feeling w electricity. I am telling you from exp. A good collar, lets say a dogtra w 127 levels, feels way milder if set properly than Vibe ever will on the same collar. There is one company unleashed technology that makes Variable Vibe.
> 
> ...


I've felt it - I'm not sure I'd call the lower levels "painful", but definitely more aversive than my cell phone going off in my pocket (vibration) though not as obvious. I've heard it compared also to the kind of static shock you get accidently when humidity is low. At my schooll we have a can of "static guard" which we spray on our selves when the weather is cool and very dry. Had one of our freestyle people - not a rookie, she's a judge! accidently deliver a static shock to her adolescent puppy while teaching leg weaves. He didn't yelp or scream. But it took her several repititions to get him to go cautiously around that leg again. That says aversive to me. Again, if you're okay with using an averisve in a specific situation, you're okay with it. I'm not one to call you a dog abuser over it. What concerns me most is people saying it is not, when it clearly is. Because I am concerned that they may be misleading not only me, but themselves. And that doesn't make for good training practices.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Umn, can you show me where I said that, please?


You said

Actually, I've heard from people that have attended Fred Hassen seminars that there is a fair amount of dog screaming/jumping/crying while people are trying to find the "right" level. 

Implication being that any time someone is trying to find the right level, there is screaming/jumping/crying involved.



Pawzk9 said:


> So, can you explain to me how an ecollar is generally used which does not cause discomfort (or at least threat of discomfort?)


I already did, in a previous post. I think a few other people have also mentioned different techniques/uses.



> My point was that in the Fred Hassen video posted (and every other Fred Hassen video I've seen,) the tool is being used in a way that I would not be comfortable using it.


While Fred may be one of the most prolific providers of e-collar training on the internet, his techniques are not the only way to use the collar, and are not how the majority of people I know use it. Yes, many people I know use it as a way to correct the dog, but not with the same techniques he's using.



jiml said:


> ok, I know some people have that feeling w electricity. I am telling you from exp. A good collar, lets say a dogtra w 127 levels, feels way milder if set properly than Vibe ever will on the same collar.


This is true. I have 1 dog who REALLY doesn't like the vibration on the collar, for him it's way more adversive than a very low level stim.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You can't make me think that marker training doesn't work for every dog.


Then you need to meet my brother's Labrador. He seriously has NO concept of it.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> You can clearly see the dog's demeanor change once the collar has been put in place and *ahem* "proper setting" has been determined, off-camera.
> A wagging tail does not always mean a happy / willing dog; if you watch the dog's reluctance to come close to the trainer (aside from the food lures), and reluctance to put his butt on the ground, then I'd say it's more of a stress wag.
> In the vid, the trainer uses it mostly as a marker in a positive sense, but then turns around and uses it to correct the dog's inattention. Seems totalling confusing to me, and I'd bet the dog feels the same way.
> 
> ...


Especially the time where she hits the button AFTER he's turned to her.



dantero said:


> But if you talk to the trainers at zoos and other places that are using marker training, they will tell you it's not 100% reliable at getting the desired behavior. Sometimes the animals just aren't interested in cooperating. At which point they either have to use some sort of adversive, be it withholding food, social isolation, or even in some cases physical correction, or accept that they aren't going to get the behavior at that time.
> .


And yet, they use it because they can get the behavior MORE reliably than with compulsion (which is easier to do to dogs, because they are not wild animals and they put up with us and our quirks) If the animal isn't interested in cooperating, chances are the animal isn't yet trained.



dantero said:


> You said
> 
> Actually, I've heard from people that have attended Fred Hassen seminars that there is a fair amount of dog screaming/jumping/crying while people are trying to find the "right" level.
> 
> ...


No, that would be a generalization. The implication would be that sometimes (not EVERYtime) someone is trying to find the "right" level, some dogs exhibit signs of discomfort, including vocalization. At least that is what has been reported to me. If I had meant to say *all* the dogs were screaming/jumping/crying, that's probably what I would have said.



Xeph said:


> Then you need to meet my brother's Labrador. He seriously has NO concept of it.


How much effort has been put into giving him a concept?


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

@Dantero, re: I have never met a dog trained without any compulsion/adversives that performed at the level of reliability I want 

I'm not sure about your level of adversives, but Ian Dunbar used to train his Akitas with non-force methods, because Akitas tend to be oversenstive to force. I assume there are other examples, but Dunbar is fairly visible.


@Xeph, re: markers work for all dogs... except my brother's Lab ...

 I've said it before - a Lab is a chewing, eating, and sometimes obsessed machine. Markers will work with your brother's Lab... but I imagine it has to be something that the dog has only a passing interest in.... but not food, a clicker, tennis balls, treats, toys, little animals, and off leash walk, a twig on the ground .... Maybe he might crinkle a piece of lettuce ? 

@wvasko - blowgun ... I don't think this would work for me, because it looks a little like a bird and my dog might think it's a game of catch


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I think marker training is very strong and wonderful for teaching behaviors.... Very good stuff.

It's much weaker when trying to discourage a behavior, especially a self reinforcing behavior.

I have actually used blowgun training... To teach stray dogs to stay out my trash.... 

And for the static shock thing, maybe comparable but I routinely get zapped with static shock at work just touching doorknobs in the winter that are way stronger than I ever used on a collar. There is no doubt you can make it very strong and very aversive, but it need not be depending on how you are using it. Some ways in which some people use them would be ineffective if it wasn't a strong aversive.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

This is a good reason against e-collar, because it shows that shocks do not make permanent learning:

"I *routinely *get zapped with static shock "


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

hanksimon said:


> This is a good reason against e-collar, because it shows that shocks do not make permanent learning:
> 
> "I *routinely *get zapped with static shock "


Actually it does... I learned to always hit the doorknob with the back of my hand when I approach it, rather than just grab it, and to tap other metal things as I walk around to lessen the static buildup.. I'm so conditioned to do these things I tend to do them at home, and even when it's more humid and there's no static electricity.

Static electricity isn't a very good analogy for an e-collar though... 

Static eletricity can be a tiny charge, or it can be enough to kill you dead instantly and burn off an arm or a leg.. Remember lightning is only static electricity.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm not sure about your level of adversives, but Ian Dunbar used to train his Akitas with non-force methods,>>>>>

No offence to the good Dr. but he is an academic. Im sure their is a bunch on this forum that train w various methods to a higher level than him. I have heard him say himself he is a tad lazy when it comes to training. 

Unrelated but funny vid of the good Dr
http://www.youtube.com/user/masterofhounds#p/search/1/nKIqZ806C8I


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Dunbar is an academic? Poppycock. He's a pet dog trainer. He's interested in what works for pet dogs. Of course people on this forum train dogs to a higher level than him. We're sport and working dog trainers. Different games. Dunbar has expressed dissatisfaction with sport dog trainers for being too academic and not being helpful to people who just want obedient pets. 

Of course he's lazy. You think pet owners aren't? R+ is a hell of a lot easier for pet owners to use and learn.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> @wvasko - blowgun ... I don't think this would work for me, because it looks a little like a bird and my dog might think it's a game of catch


I never tried it as you got to be smarter than the blowgun and I flunked out at blowgun school.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Dunbar is an academic? Poppycock.>>>>>

really? this is not a jibe at Dr. Dunbar at all. Just a responce to someone pointing out dunbar as training to a very high level. 

I bet you I can show you more vids of him giving lectures than training. Im not saying that is bad, If you take it that way im sorry every field learns from those in academics.

This is a good reason against e-collar, because it shows that shocks do not make permanent learning>>>>>

You want to talk about poppycock? you mean all those dogs taught a generation or two ago w aversives were not learning? how about all the bird dogs that are trained to acept hand signals from 100yds away w e-collars?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Dawgmanevang#p/u/22/XVB3t5jFPKE


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> I'm not sure about your level of adversives, but Ian Dunbar used to train his Akitas with non-force methods, because Akitas tend to be oversenstive to force. I assume there are other examples, but Dunbar is fairly visible.


I actually mentioned a level of reliability, not a level of adversives. 

When I get involved in these conversations, which I actually usually avoid, I start to get the feeling that there are posters (not neccessarily you) who are convinced that people can train anything with 100% reliability without the use of corrections, if they just work at it hard enough, long enough, and creatively enough. I don't agree. And usually if I'm able to actually go view one of these trainers dogs, I discover that their opinion of reliable, and high level, aren't the same as mine.

I feel like I need to state this again. I'm not against teaching with positive methods. I think it's the best way to teach. But I do not feel you get reliability without some form of adversives in the proofing stage. And despite many arguments on the internet with people who say they do, I haven't seen it in person. 

I agree with TxRider when they said this


> I think marker training is very strong and wonderful for teaching behaviors.... Very good stuff.
> 
> It's much weaker when trying to discourage a behavior, especially a self reinforcing behavior.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> You want to talk about poppycock? you mean all those dogs taught a generation or two ago w aversives were not learning? how about all the bird dogs that are trained to accept hand signals from 100yds away w e-collars?


I cannot talk for others but the e-collar work that I did worked, dogs learned and retained knowledge. To be fair in 45 yrs I did not work more than 9 or 10 dogs and this was in dinosaur days so by no means would I qualify as an e-collar expert. With me it was only used as a last resort.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

By level of aversive, I was omitting the fact that Dunbar is NOT a pure +R advocate, but is working on describing some very mild +P methods that he's applied to aggressive dogs.

But the point is taken, that his focus is Pet dogs, not working dogs, etc. And, he doesn't strive for 100% reliability, although he may achieve it in different ways, again to support the pet owner, rather than others. 

Having said that - as a pet-owner trainer, but not a professional - I like Dunbar's methods because I can teach them to pet owners... And, I find them to be counter-intuitive and effective... although geared to the pet dog training and problems.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

TxRider said:


> Actually it does... I learned to always hit the doorknob with the back of my hand when I approach it, rather than just grab it, and to tap other metal things as I walk around to lessen the static buildup.. I'm so conditioned to do these things I tend to do them at home, and even when it's more humid and there's no static electricity.
> 
> .


Sounds like you consider it pretty aversive to me


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Sounds like you consider it pretty aversive to me


Not so much, I just prefer to to get it on the back of my hand rather than my finger tips. If it was really aversive I would get different shoes, change the carpet or do something alse to eliminate it. Instead I just keep on getting shocked as it's not a big enough deal to do something about. 

In other words it can't be very aversive or I would avoid it..

And it usually a lot stronger shock than I use on an e-collar anyway.

At any rate, I did not form a solid opinion on e-collars with out first using it myself, and observing it used on a dog, and formed enough real basis for actually having an informed opinion. Someone who has done neither really isn't someone I can place a lot of weight on their opinion on the subject.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

dantero said:


> When I get involved in these conversations, which I actually usually avoid, I start to get the feeling that there are posters (not neccessarily you) who are convinced that people can train anything with 100% reliability without the use of corrections, if they just work at it hard enough, long enough, and creatively enough. I don't agree. And usually if I'm able to actually go view one of these trainers dogs, I discover that their opinion of reliable, and high level, aren't the same as mine.


IME, 100% reliability is a pretty lofty expectation. As if reliability were the holy grail, ... kinda makes me wonder if 100% truly exists LOL.

Dogs are not perfect beings, they are not infallible. Therefore, sacrifices and compromises must be made somewhere along the line, whether it be in reliablity, or confidence, or precision, or trust, etc .. or in some other intangible element. 

Personally, the quest for 100% reliability doesn't mean THAT much to me that I would ever feel the need or desire to resort to e collar methods. I'll willingly take a marginally lower level of reliability, and perhaps even an occassional NQ. I'll gladly err on the side of trust and other intangibles, ... and happily work at training hard enough, long enough, and creatively enough to achieve a realistic and acceptable level of reliability .. sans corrections.

I know that my dogs appreciate all of my extra effort.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think the original reference was to competition or to working dogs, where I'm usually happy when my very intelligent and highly trained.... but questionably obedient .... pet dog acknowledges me with at least a flip of his ... ear 

On the other hand, in my continued over-reverant reference to Dunbar, he had related an obedience trial incident with his Akita, where the Akita decided to trot off across 3 training circles (100 yards ?) to investigate something... and the entire event stopped. Concerned about the Akita's reactions. Dunbar was concerned about being put in Obedience trial purgatory if he called the dog, but finally a judge, apologetically, asked him if he could recall the dog. He softly said, "Nicky, Come," and the Akita looked over, came trotting back, and sat by his side. And the judge apologized again, saying that Dunbar was of course disqualified. .... but the dog was reliable.... to the level that Dunbar required... so to speak


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> IME, 100% reliability is a pretty lofty expectation. As if reliability were the holy grail, ... kinda makes me wonder if 100% truly exists LOL.
> 
> Dogs are not perfect beings, they are not infallible. Therefore, sacrifices and compromises must be made somewhere along the line, whether it be in reliablity, or confidence, or precision, or trust, etc .. or in some other intangible element.
> 
> ...


Then there is the definition of correction.. The term is defined as a change that rectifies an error..

Technically a simple "no" is a correction. As is a "leave it" in many cases and anything else that tells the dog not to do something. Even telling your dog to do something else rather than what it was doing that you didn't like, is technically a correction.

One of the things that make internet discussion difficult is that none of really share the same defintions of terms exactly, and some us are far apart in the definition of different terms.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

One of the things that make internet discussion difficult is that none of really share the same defintions of terms exactly, and some us are far apart in the definition of different terms.>>>>

true. To some positive training means never even saying "no". to others it is a lack of physical aversives


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