# My kid is rough with our dog...



## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Jaxxon is getting older and wanting to play more with our new pup but he can be a little rough. He will pull Geoffs fur, swing when going to pet him, pull his bark collar and be a bit rougher than I would like. I will tell him nice touch and show him the proper way to pet him but Geoff has grown standoffish to Jaxxon. He has even nipped him a couple times and scratched him even when Jaxxon has been better at "nice touch".

What can I do to make Geoff like my son again...?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Don't allow your son to be rough with him. Don't allow them to interact unless you are -right there-, actively managing the interaction, and stop your son before he gets rough.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Don't allow your son to be rough with him. Don't allow them to interact unless you are -right there-, actively managing the interaction, and stop your son before he gets rough.


That is what I'm doing... I'm now just trying to repair the relationship


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

for now I would leave them be, let things cool down and then revisit the situation when your kid has really learned to be gentle and that animals are not toys.

This is your fault for letting this happen in the first place (sorry but it's true).


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I wouldn't encourage so much interaction in the first place. Little kids don't have the impulse control yet to treat a dog appropriately, so it's best if the dog and kid can co-exist in the same area without actively engaging with each other.

This blog is excellent and may make you rethink your approach: http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/2011/01/24/mamas-dont-let-your-babies-get-magnetized-to-dogs/


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I wouldn't encourage so much interaction in the first place. Little kids don't have the impulse control yet to treat a dog appropriately, so it's best if the dog and kid can co-exist in the same area without actively engaging with each other.
> 
> This blog is excellent and may make you rethink your approach: http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/2011/01/24/mamas-dont-let-your-babies-get-magnetized-to-dogs/


I really like that article elrohwen, thanks for sharing!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Canyx said:


> I really like that article elrohwen, thanks for sharing!


The blog is really great. She has a variety of articles on this topic.

I sent it to my friends when they were pregnant, and now their 1.5 year old is great with the dogs. We went on vacation with them for a week in a tiny cabin, our two dogs and their dog, and I can remember the kid touching Hazel maybe twice (which she solicited), and never touching Watson. He had no interest in them. It was so much easier on everybody.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Take the bark collar off the dog and put it on the kid. 

Sorry, that was rude. But, really, a dog might forget that he was fed 10 minutes ago but will remember any mistreatment for a very long time. This could take a long time to repair.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Isn't Geoff a puppy? Why do you have a bark collar on him? 

I agree with the others. Don't let them interact. You are responsible for making sure your puppy's life experiences are all positive so that he can be a stable, well rounded dog. So far, you're not doing a great job. Take the bark collar off, keep the kid away from the dog, and work harder to create positive experiences for your impressionable young dog. Honestly you're lucky he's a lab, they're much more forgiving than many other breeds.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

RonE said:


> Take the bark collar off the dog and put it on the kid.
> 
> Sorry, that was rude. But, really, a dog might forget that he was fed 10 minutes ago but will remember any mistreatment for a very long time. This could take a long time to repair.


Pretty uncalled for response from a mod...

I am working on it and keeping them apart the best I can


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Toddler aged kids can be just plain tough to keep in line around dogs; they don't have the motor skills usually to pet nicely and then add the lack of impulse control on top of that. A kid can --try-- to be petting nicely but a lot of times, their coordination still means they swing widely for pets, grab harder than desired and act erratically by a dog's point of view.

Keeping them mainly separate and letting each mature a bit, mentally and physically will help "heal" the trauma for the pup.

Legit question here, not trying to be judgmental--- lots of dogs will bark or vocalize during play or exciting times like getting treats or heading out for walks. Is there a chance that Geoff was shocked or buzzed by the bark collar while interacting with your son? Dogs can easily associate pain or discomfort with their surroundings at the time it occurs more than their actions at the same time. 

Its one of the big reasons that even many people who use aversives in training (prong collars for example) don't use them in connection with any sort of issues that stem from fear/aggression, i.e. correcting leash pulling going after squirrels is a whole different ball game than a dog who lunges at other dogs or people on walks.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Shell said:


> Legit question here, not trying to be judgmental--- lots of dogs will bark or vocalize during play or exciting times like getting treats or heading out for walks. Is there a chance that Geoff was shocked or buzzed by the bark collar while interacting with your son? Dogs can easily associate pain or discomfort with their surroundings at the time it occurs more than their actions at the same time.


This makes a lot of sense and why do you have a bark collar on a puppy? You never answered that question


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Shell said:


> Toddler aged kids can be just plain tough to keep in line around dogs; they don't have the motor skills usually to pet nicely and then add the lack of impulse control on top of that. A kid can --try-- to be petting nicely but a lot of times, their coordination still means they swing widely for pets, grab harder than desired and act erratically by a dog's point of view.
> 
> Keeping them mainly separate and letting each mature a bit, mentally and physically will help "heal" the trauma for the pup.
> 
> ...


That's just it... Jaxxon didn't know that he wasn't being gentle enough with his hands and actions. He wasn't being mean because he was trying to kiss geoff on the face at the same time a lot of the times. 

Thank you for the good post


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

kcomstoc said:


> This makes a lot of sense and why do you have a bark collar on a puppy? You never answered that question


I want through a pretty tough time a while back that was caused by my old dogs barking... the bark collars worked very well for them.

I thought if I can fix the problem before it starts that someday soon I wont need him to wear it at all.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

So you are using the bark collar as a preventative? That strikes me as a bad idea. Teach Geoff to bark on command, that is to bark and give his energy to you. Once you have done that you can teach him to stop barking. To teach him to bark on command, hold a treat in your hand get him worked up about getting the treat, at first, he might just lick his lips but keep doing it until he barks and praise him profusely and say "speak". Keep doing it until he gets the idea to bark on command. Then you can teach him to not bark at other things, just to you on command. 

What a shame that Geoff has been traumatized by your toddler's "affections". It is much harder to resolve that kind of issue when the dog is young because it has a greater impact on them. Please keep them separated or well supervised in the future.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

dark_bark said:


> That's just it... Jaxxon didn't know that he wasn't being gentle enough with his hands and actions. He wasn't being mean because he was trying to kiss geoff on the face at the same time a lot of the times.
> 
> Thank you for the good post


Be very carefully about kisses. A kid's face into a dog's face is just a huge risk. If he really wants to give Geoff "kisses" you might try to teach something like air kisses or where he kisses his fingers and then touches them to Geoff. Most dogs do not like having someone in their face, they may tolerate it but its still a risk and a bad habit for a kid who might then do that a strange dog or a friend's dog who isn't quite so tolerant. My male dog Chester does tend to lick at my friends' kid's snotty nose but he's A)the one leaning in so he's not being stressed and B)immediately redirected



dark_bark said:


> I want through a pretty tough time a while back that was caused by my old dogs barking... the bark collars worked very well for them.
> 
> I thought if I can fix the problem before it starts that someday soon I wont need him to wear it at all.


Each dog is an individual. IMO, its always better to start with the least aversive method, especially on puppies and evaluate changing needs over time. As in, I do use prong collars on adult dogs who start out in my care as strong pullers who pose a safety risk to me and others (landing on my face on pavement isn't good for anyone) but wouldn't start a puppy or young dog out on a prong; I used harnesses on my two foster pups that were under 6 months old and they walked well on them with just basic training. The reason is, any aversive has some risk of backfiring / fallout due to a dog associating the pain with something other than your intended purpose and the potential for generalized stress.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Mirzam said:


> So you are using the bark collar as a preventative? That strikes me as a bad idea. Teach Geoff to bark on command, that is to bark and give his energy to you. Once you have done that you can teach him to stop barking. To teach him to bark on command, hold a treat in your hand get him worked up about getting the treat, at first, he might just lick his lips but keep doing it until he barks and praise him profusely and say "speak". Keep doing it until he gets the idea to bark on command. Then you can teach him to not bark at other things, just to you on command.


Please take the bark collar off of your puppy and start TEACHING your puppy instead of just trying to traumatize it which is what is going to happen if you don't start teaching him. He needs to be taught and this is the way to do it, plus it'll be great for bonding


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> I want through a pretty tough time a while back that was caused by my old dogs barking... the bark collars worked very well for them.
> 
> I thought if I can fix the problem before it starts that someday soon I wont need him to wear it at all.


I think your "tough time" a while back wasn't caused by your old dog barking, it was caused by your unwillingness or inability to train your old dog to not bark. 

Aversives and punitive training for puppies is a really bad idea. I'm beginning to feel pretty horribly for Geoff. He's getting smacked and kissed by a kid while being unable to bark or vocalize because of a bark collar. In many books, including mine, that's a borderline abusive situation.

ETA: I guess I'll rephrase because I'm being dishonest. It's not borderline abusive. It is straight up abusive. Repeatedly punishing a behavior without ever training an alternative behavior instead is abuse.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> dark_bark said:
> 
> 
> > I want through a pretty tough time a while back that was caused by my old dogs barking... the bark collars worked very well for them.
> ...


I think you're using the word "training" very loosely... What I'm doing is a form of training (maybe not your way but training none the less). 

I'm going to take the part about my old situation with a grade of slaw because you seriously have no idea what I went through with Gavin.

I am in no way abusing my dog...!


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> I think you're using the word "training" very loosely... What I'm doing is a form of training (maybe not your way but training none the less).
> 
> I'm going to take the part about my old situation with a grade of slaw because you seriously have no idea what I went through with Gavin.
> 
> I am in no way abusing my dog...!


What other training are you using with the collar? I would not use the collar on a young dog since if he relates the shock to something other then the bark you are going to have to undo it. You may think that you are going to fix or prevent issues but I can tell you that you can get aggression from fear with it. With a child if he barks a warning he is going to get shocked which could make him associate it with the child--or what would be worse is it will stop him from giving warnings and go strait to biting-- and I can tell you from experience that you do not want a dog that does not give warnings.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

A puppy with a shock collar (or citronella, whatever) makes me cringe. My coworker does something similar and it's so hard to bite my tongue. Good thing I don't have to here 

Please open your mind to different methods of training, if you really care about this puppy. Or, you can just be closed minded and think everyone here is wrong. I mean, it's your dog and your life. But perhaps you could have a better bond with the dog, a happier dog, a happier life, if you would open your mind. But people are usually one of two ways - willing to learn or not. 

Let's not forget that most dogs learn to bark through the collars and build tolerance to the pain. With time it will be ineffective and your dog will be screwed up mentally.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

sydneynicole said:


> A puppy with a shock collar (or citronella, whatever) makes me cringe. My coworker does something similar and it's so hard to bite my tongue. Good thing I don't have to here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am here to learn... That's why I asked the question, but people are treating me like an idiot. 

I never said I wouldn't take off the collar but that's not why I was here in the first place, and it's working...


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## Dogsignalfire (Nov 17, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> I am here to learn... That's why I asked the question, but people are treating me like an idiot.
> 
> I never said I wouldn't take off the collar but that's not why I was here in the first place, and it's working...


You're here to learn- more experienced trainers will feel very strongly about using aversive methods on puppies. I think most people would be fine or more tolerant if you were dealing with even a young adult, but Geoff is too young for the bark collar to do anything but harm to his mentality in this stage of his life. That's all. 

Someone also mentioned that having the bark collar used while the child plays/has hurt Geoff in the past is what would help create a negative association. The possibility that Geoff tried to bark in pain/fear or to say "stop!" when the child pinched or hurt him in some way, at the same time the bark collar gave Geoff a shock because of his attempt to say "stop", is something to seriously consider. If this has happened in the past, then what Geoff learned from this experience is this: he can't bark or yelp, so he can only run away and avoid the child and stay silent. So basically, the bark collar is very possibly related to what you are asking in the first place.

In addition, bark collars shouldn't be used in fear situations in the first place- never mind whether adult or puppy. The reason is that a bark collar on dog who is afraid is simply teaching him that he can't vocalize his feelings/what he is scared of, so is forced to resort to other behaviors. In some dogs, it's running away as a first reaction (flight). In some other dogs, it's biting/snapping (fight).


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## CrystalGSD (Jun 27, 2014)

Dogsignalfire said:


> You're here to learn- more experienced trainers will feel very strongly about using aversive methods on puppies. I think most people would be fine if you were dealing with even a young adult, but Geoff is too young for the bark collar to do anything but harm to his mentality in this stage of his life. That's all.
> 
> Someone also mentioned that having the bark collar used while the child plays/has hurt Geoff in the past is what would help create a negative association. The possibility that Geoff tried to bark in pain/fear or to say "stop!" when the child pinched or hurt him in some way, at the same time the bark collar gave Geoff a shock because of his attempt to say "stop", is something to seriously consider. If this has happened in the past, then what Geoff learned from this experience is this: he can't bark or yelp, so he can only run away and avoid and stay silent.


This x100. If you're here to learn, I'd take the bark collar off immediately, read up on training for quietness, and read the links people have given you.


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## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

Dogsignalfire said:


> You're here to learn- more experienced trainers will feel very strongly about using aversive methods on puppies. I think most people would be fine or more tolerant if you were dealing with even a young adult, but Geoff is too young for the bark collar to do anything but harm to his mentality in this stage of his life. That's all.
> 
> Someone also mentioned that having the bark collar used while the child plays/has hurt Geoff in the past is what would help create a negative association. The possibility that Geoff tried to bark in pain/fear or to say "stop!" when the child pinched or hurt him in some way, at the same time the bark collar gave Geoff a shock because of his attempt to say "stop", is something to seriously consider. If this has happened in the past, then what Geoff learned from this experience is this: he can't bark or yelp, so he can only run away and avoid and stay silent.


Or maybe that is why he nipped at the child already, he couldn't bark to warn him to stop!


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## CrystalGSD (Jun 27, 2014)

Dogs use their voices to communicate just like you do. Imagine having your mouth duct taped shut and getting shocked every time you made a noise while a giant creature poked you and shook you around repeatedly. Obviously you would resort to extraordinary measures to get the creature to stop. Geoff is just reacting in the same way.


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## Dogsignalfire (Nov 17, 2015)

dogsule said:


> Or maybe that is why he nipped at the child already, he couldn't bark to warn him to stop!


I totally missed that Geoff already nipped. Well, that's some more proof for you, dark_bark... The bark collar needs to go, because it's most likely related to what you're asking here. 

I just added this in my other post before seeing the new posts, so I'll just copy paste: 

In addition, bark collars shouldn't be used in fear situations in the first place- never mind whether adult or puppy. The reason is that a bark collar on dog who is afraid is simply teaching him that he can't vocalize his feelings/what he is scared of, so is forced to resort to other behaviors. In some dogs, it's running away as a first reaction. In some other dogs, it's biting/snapping.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> I think you're using the word "training" very loosely... What I'm doing is a form of training (maybe not your way but training none the less).
> 
> I'm going to take the part about my old situation with a grade of slaw because you seriously have no idea what I went through with Gavin.
> 
> I am in no way abusing my dog...!


You aren't training your dog. You aren't showing him what you want him to do. You're punishing him for barking, which is a totally normal dog behavior. Here are a few relevant quotes from and about Ian Dunbar's ideas about the difference between training, punishing and abusing, so you can hear a professional's opinion:

_"Punishment has to be effective. [Dunbar believes] if a punishment needs to be delivered more than once, then the punishment isn’t effective and is more abusive. He suggests that leash jerks, ineffective yelling, and dogs ‘still wearing’ a shock collar are dogs that are suffering ineffective, abusive punishment."

"Punishment should only be delivered when appropriate behaviour is known."
_
*shrug* Put any terms on it you like, but that doesn't change what it is. Punishment and abuse. I have a big problem with people who think that "abuse" is what they see on tv, that it's the emaciated, beaten and neglected animals that the ASPCA pastes everywhere to get donations. Abuse comes in many more insidious forms than outright physical torture, and it often gets labeled as "training" by people who want to justify their quick fix, easy way out methods.

I'm also frankly puzzled as to why you're defending your method. It's not working. Your puppy is scared of your kid. Your kid has been bitten. That situation, in and of itself, is a sign that you're doing something really wrong. And instead of wanting to listen to the advice you're getting about how to correct it, you're telling us that the bark collar is working! Sure, your puppy doesn't bark, that's great. Too bad he bites instead.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Just a thought but what if I removed the collar when Jaxxon is with him and put it back on when its time to be quiet...? That way he will only associate Jaxxon as a positive and will know its time to pipe down at other times

Then I can ween him off the bark collar....


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## CrystalGSD (Jun 27, 2014)

He's too young to need the collar anyways. And what you're suggesting is just going to create a collar-smart dog. Trust me, that's not what you want. I would just take the bark collar off permanently, if I were you, because there's no need for him to wear it at this age.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

dark_bark said:


> Just a thought but what if I removed the collar when Jaxxon is with him and put it back on when its time to be quiet...? That way he will only associate Jaxxon as a positive and will know its time to pipe down at other times
> 
> Then I can ween him off the bark collar....


 what is it you want him to do??? 
What other training are you going to do with him? basic commands/ tricks ?
how does he act toward your child, more details the better--how has he nipped? when how often?
You never answered my other post so these may give me more to work with to help you.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If a bark collar is to be used, it's for problem barkers, and should only be put on them at times when they can't bark. Eventually they'll learn when they can and can't bark (theoretically), and the collar can be phased out. To put one on a puppy and keep it on him all the time, well, you're basically teaching him that he can NEVER EVER bark, not even if someone is at the door or someone is bothering him or he's playing, not even if someone is breaking in, not EVER. Maybe that's what you're trying to do, idk. But it's a bad idea. Dogs are supposed to bark at appropriate times.

Does Geoff even bark when the collar is off? Labs aren't barky like little dogs tend to be, I doubt he'd ever become a problem barker anyway.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

If anyone reading this thread, or anyone who looks up "bark collars" in the future comes across this, I'd like to say - if you want a dog who doesn't make a sound, they sell robot dogs these days. They come with off switches so that they're quiet when you want them to be. You don't even have to feed them or clean up their poop!

But that's not how real dogs work, and attempting to completely silence all audible communication from another living being is cruel and abusive.

I have to question the humanity, moral integrity and consider the real possibility of sociopathic tendencies of anyone who would put a bark collar on a puppy, keep it on at all times, allow their child to hit and be rough with their puppy, and then defend their method ever after the puppy shows signs of trauma by nipping. I'm almost speechless, I'm so disgusted. I've worked with shut down, traumatized and abused dogs for the last decade. Dogs who were afraid of everything, dogs who didn't know how to be dogs because they'd been trained to do nothing besides be quiet and non-interactive or get punished. And those dogs got that way because of people like the OP. People who don't care about the animal, who only want to see the desired results, no matter the cost.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I agree with the others that I would take the bark collar off immediately and not return to it. 

If there are times you need him to be quiet (like when the baby is napping) you can freeze a kong with some peanut butter or other yummy goodies in it and give that during nap time. Alternatively (or additionally), you could schedule some really energized puppy playtime before naptime so that (ideally) when nap time comes the puppy is also ready to sleep.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> I agree with the others that I would take the bark collar off immediately and not return to it.
> 
> If there are times you need him to be quiet (like when the baby is napping) you can freeze a kong with some peanut butter or other yummy goodies in it and give that during nap time. Alternatively (or additionally), you could schedule some really energized puppy playtime before naptime so that (ideally) when nap time comes the puppy is also ready to sleep.


This sounds like good advice... what is a kong?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

dark_bark said:


> This sounds like good advice... what is a kong?












These toys, they should be available in any store that sells pet products.


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## TheDarkestMinds (Feb 28, 2015)

They are usually located a few isles away from the bark collars.......


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Never letting a dog bark is just as cruel as never letting a child speak. It's removing a major method of communication.


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## MizzouPup (Oct 23, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> Never letting a dog bark is just as cruel as never letting a child speak. It's removing a major method of communication.


How can you tell what a dog is barking/saying?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

How is that relevant? I can't tell what a toddler is babbling about half the time, but it's still trying to communicate with me.

Also, can't you tell the difference between an angry bark and an excited bark, at the very least? I sure can.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

MizzouPup said:


> How can you tell what a dog is barking/saying?


Well, the first step in deciphering what your dog is "saying" is by allowing it to bark.

Most of us can tell what different bark volumes and tones mean. Loki had a "lets play" bark, a "let me inside the house now" bark, a "it's dinner time" bark, a "there's a person on the street" bark, a "there's a person on the driveway bark" and a "get away from my human or I'll rip your freaking throat out" bark. 

It was very easy for me to tell all of those communications apart. Because I allowed my dog to communicate with me instead of requiring him to be a mute.


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## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Dogs bark to release stress. If you prevent a dog from barking you are allowing stress to build up in its body. Bad. As I mentioned in my post above, teach your dog to bark on command so that they can move energy rather than trying to hold it in. Energy that moves is safe energy, energy that is stuck or held back is dangerous and you don't want that around a young child.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I will say this, I had a dog who had a bad experience with a kid as a puppy (kid picked her up when I had my back turned filling out paperwork for the barn manager where I boarded my horse at the time and dropped her) luckily she wasnt hurt, but it scared her so badly that she hated kids under the age of 7 after that.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I will say this, I had a dog who had a bad experience with a kid as a puppy (kid picked her up when I had my back turned filling out paperwork for the barn manager where I boarded my horse at the time and dropped her) luckily she wasnt hurt, but it scared her so badly that she hated kids under the age of 7 after that.


Thats terrible... I wouldn't want that to happen

What did you do to fix it? Was it your kid?


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

dark_bark said:


> Jaxxon is getting older and wanting to play more with our new pup but he can be a little rough. He will pull Geoffs fur, swing when going to pet him, pull his bark collar and be a bit rougher than I would like. I will tell him nice touch and show him the proper way to pet him but Geoff has grown standoffish to Jaxxon. He has even nipped him a couple times and scratched him even when Jaxxon has been better at "nice touch".
> 
> What can I do to make Geoff like my son again...?



I would say let Jaxxon feed Geoff and use that as an opportunity for them to build that trust back up with each other.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

dark_bark said:


> Thats terrible... I wouldn't want that to happen
> 
> What did you do to fix it? Was it your kid?


No, it was not my kid (I dont have kids and never will), it was the kid of a person who also boarded their horses there (her kids were hellions that had no manners) I tried to fix it, but once she decided she didnt like someone (or another dog!) that was it, there was no convincing her other wise, and she was nasty, if someone tried to pet her, a look of warning is all they got, if they pushed it, she'd bite. 

She was a working bred australian cattle dog from real working parents (as in an actual cattle ranch operation), the rancher who bred her bred them for working and I hate to say it, but temperament like how pet dogs should have was secondary to him, he didnt care if they were social or if they liked people, he only cared if they worked and he only bred a litter if he needed another working dog, and sold the rest. Of course this was over 11 years ago, and I didnt know what I knew now. 

I WILL say that she was one of the best dogs I ever had, phenomenal working dog, great protector and right hand, just not a dog I could take anywhere, you know? LOL.

For you I would say just let things be for now, keep your kid away from the puppy (as in direct contact, they can be in the same room together, just dont let them accost each other) (if he is as small as he is in the signature pic you have, the kid can actually hurt him) and revisit when the kid, and the puppy are older.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> No, it was not my kid (I dont have kids and never will), it was the kid of a person who also boarded their horses there (her kids were hellions that had no manners) I tried to fix it, but once she decided she didnt like someone (or another dog!) that was it, there was no convincing her other wise, and she was nasty, if someone tried to pet her, a look of warning is all they got, if they pushed it, she'd bite.
> 
> She was a working bred australian cattle dog from real working parents (as in an actual cattle ranch operation), the rancher who bred her bred them for working and I hate to say it, but temperament like how pet dogs should have was secondary to him, he didnt care if they were social or if they liked people, he only cared if they worked and he only bred a litter if he needed another working dog, and sold the rest. Of course this was over 11 years ago, and I didnt know what I knew now.
> 
> ...


You really should consider a child... it's the best thing i've ever done. Jaxxon is the love of my life and even though he's was adopted I truly feel like he's always been mine... it's magical


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## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

dark_bark said:


> You really should consider a child... it's the best thing i've ever done. Jaxxon is the love of my life and even though he's was adopted I truly feel like he's always been mine... it's magical


OMG, you said this to the wrong person (OwnedbyACDs), you might want to edit your post. Just saying....


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

dogsule said:


> OMG, you said this to the wrong person (OwnedbyACDs), you might want to edit your post. Just saying....


Oh no... I didn't mean anything bad? I'm sorry for whatever I said


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

dark_bark said:


> You really should consider a child... it's the best thing i've ever done. Jaxxon is the love of my life and even though he's was adopted I truly feel like he's always been mine... it's magical


 This may be true for you, but it is not true for a great many people, myself included. Pushing a lifestyle choice on someone else, particularly someone you don't know, is never a good plan.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Kuma'sMom said:


> dark_bark said:
> 
> 
> > You really should consider a child... it's the best thing i've ever done. Jaxxon is the love of my life and even though he's was adopted I truly feel like he's always been mine... it's magical
> ...


I was just saying that anything is possible if there is problems... As a gay man i never thought I would be able to know the joys of a kid but I made it happen.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

dark_bark said:


> I was just saying that anything is possible if there is problems... As a gay man i never thought I would be able to know the joys of a kid but I made it happen.


And you are making a very erroneous assumption that there are problems preventing a person from having kids, rather than accepting that there are many people, like Owned and myself, who simply have no interest in ever having children. It's great that you find having children to be a joy, but kids are anything but a joy for many people.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I am another one who has never had any children and have never regretted it. It was not that I couldn't have had any but I just never wanted any. My two sisters made up for me, one having three girls and one boy and the other having one of each. Now they have children, grandchildren and great grandchildren so the world will never miss me not having any.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Gotta say not a fan of kids either, honestly I don't want any ever but my SO is a different story. I'm trying to convince him to NOT have kids and he's trying to convince me we should have kids....neither one is going to win for while.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

I wasn't trying to judge you guys that don't want kids... I can't fathom why but its non of my business

I meant no disrespect


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

dark_bark said:


> I wasn't trying to judge you guys that don't want kids... I can't fathom why but its non of my business
> 
> I meant no disrespect


I didn't feel disrespected but just was pointing out that kids aren't that great for everyone and I can tell you WHY I don't want kids....

1. They're expensive (you basically have to support them from birth-25 years even more sometimes *if you're the pregnant woman it's before birth, basically I think they're leeches to be honest*)

2. They're messy (they have to wear diapers for 2 years at the least)

3. They're loud/disrespectful

4. They go through puberty, they can get pregnant/or get a girl pregnant (which is even more expensive)

Basically to me they're problems....no disrespect to you


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

kcomstoc said:


> I didn't feel disrespected but just was pointing out that kids aren't that great for everyone and I can tell you WHY I don't want kids....
> 
> 1. They're expensive (you basically have to support them from birth-25 years even more sometimes *if you're the pregnant woman it's before birth, basically I think they're leeches to be honest*)
> 
> ...


Imagine if your parents had thought the same way you do...you wouldn't be here. It's all about how they are raised that determines if they are "leeches" and if they make smart choices during puberty...as well as if you have to financially support them until they're 25. 

Kids are wonderful. We love babysitting our nephew for the weekend and we can't wait to expand our own family with a child sometime soon!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The people singing the praises of having kids should probably read this thread so they know what kind of crapstorm they're sparking: http://www.dogforums.com/off-topic/328114-all-childfree-people.html

(Unless that's the goal, in which case: Carry on, I find it entertaining)


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

GizDaddy said:


> Imagine if your parents had thought the same way you do...you wouldn't be here. It's all about how they are raised that determines if they are "leeches" and if they make smart choices during puberty...as well as if you have to financially support them until they're 25.
> 
> Kids are wonderful. We love babysitting our nephew for the weekend and we can't wait to expand our own family with a child sometime soon!


Yea my mom is still scratching her head how I turned out so good but doesn't like kids, good thing I have 2 older brothers (one has 2 kids and the other has 3). Also good for you for loving kids....I on the other hand don't and there are also A LOT of other people that don't like kids and that's good too. I think there are WAY too many people in the world too (I mean the Earth wasn't meant to sustain 8 billion people) probably another reason why I don't like kids to be honest

ETA: Yes I am a horrible person...Crantastic grab the popcorn


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> The people singing the praises of having kids should probably read this thread so they know what kind of crapstorm they're sparking: http://www.dogforums.com/off-topic/328114-all-childfree-people.html
> 
> (Unless that's the goal, in which case: Carry on, I find it entertaining)


Dear god... Its 51 pages lol

I read the first page and stopped when someone said kids are ugly... I knew where it was headed and didn't need to read any further


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I like kids, but it's likely I'll never have any (I may pursue adoption at some later date, not sure). But nobody should have a kid unless they 100% want to. No child should be unwanted or even slightly resented. So nobody should ever pressure/guilt/entice/etc. someone else into having kids. It's just not the kind of decision anyone should make without being all in.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Relevant.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

GizDaddy said:


> Kids are wonderful. We love babysitting our nephew for the weekend and we can't wait to expand our own family with a child sometime soon!


Just throw him out into the yard if he causes your wife any problems.


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

Would bring a whole new meaning to the phrase "Time 'Out'"...amirite??


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

parus said:


> Just throw him out into the yard if he causes your wife any problems.


I've heard that bark collars work wonders on kids who won't be quiet. If you put them on pre-emptively, they won't even have the chance to bother you one bit!


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Have you guys seen the Doritos bark collar commercial?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Effisia said:


> Have you guys seen the Doritos bark collar commercial?


HA! Yes! But I didn't think about it until I read this! So funny.


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## MC-TO (Sep 12, 2014)

MizzouPup said:


> How can you tell what a dog is barking/saying?


I can certainly tell what my dog is saying when she barks (most of the time), just as she often knows what I am saying. Dogs make all kinds of different sounds that are intelligible to us and to other creatures, even if it's not language as we know it (but most human communication is not through strictly linguistic material either).
See http://www.labradortraininghq.com/labrador-behavior/what-do-different-dog-barks-mean/ for some discussion of different sounds. 
Or http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/is...derstanding-Vocal-Communications_20324-1.html

I know my dog's excitement barks, warning barks (in the backyard especially), attention barks (when bored), frustration sighs, warning groans or growls. The excitement barks (when people she loves come to the house, very infrequently) are the hardest to deal with through training, but we are training a long mat-stay for when visitors arrive (with clicks+treats). Warning barking in the backyard generally just results in bringing her inside. Warning barking on leash (leash-reactivity) is being trained with engage+disengage behaviour modification (clicks+treats), which works. Attention barking is ignored, with backs turned (we've been bad at keeping eye contact). All the other sounds are fine/good. All of this is more work than a bark collar, but makes for a much better relationship with her.


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## MC-TO (Sep 12, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> I wouldn't encourage so much interaction in the first place. Little kids don't have the impulse control yet to treat a dog appropriately, so it's best if the dog and kid can co-exist in the same area without actively engaging with each other.
> 
> This blog is excellent and may make you rethink your approach: http://www.dogsandbabieslearning.com/2011/01/24/mamas-dont-let-your-babies-get-magnetized-to-dogs/


 Thanks for posting this. We're having a baby in a few months and have been doing lots of research and some proactive training, but hadn't come across this, which is super useful.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MC-TO said:


> Thanks for posting this. We're having a baby in a few months and have been doing lots of research and some proactive training, but hadn't come across this, which is super useful.


You're welcome! It's a great site, I really recommend reading through all of her articles.

My friends have a 1.5 year old and another on the way, and this is how they raised their son. It's worked so well, and it's much more relaxing to go on vacation with them and have the dogs and the baby basically ignore each other 99% of the time.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Relevant.


lol (too short of an answer) lol


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

It's pretty disgusting that you guys are joking about my son wearing a bark collar


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

It's equally disgusting that you ACTUALLY put a bark collar on your young puppy. So...


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> It's pretty disgusting that you guys are joking about my son wearing a bark collar





TSTrainer said:


> It's equally disgusting that you ACTUALLY put a bark collar on your young puppy. So...


Yeah.... Pretty sure making jokes about putting a bark collar on a kid is much less disgusting than actually putting a bark collar on a puppy. 

Take the disgust you feel and really internalize it. That's how we feel about your situation and what you're doing to Geoff. 

Reality checks aren't fun, are they?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Professor Chong said:


> What disgust me is lack of discipline in today world. Not saying bark collar okay for boy child but in years ago many people much more stern and kids grew up with have respect for others and know boundary. Today everyone just play nice and too afraid of be stern with kid so they have trouble understand of boundary.


So has said every older generation in recorded history .

I'm pretty sure a shock collar is more humane than some other things some parents do to their kids in the name of "discipline". But yeah, putting one on a young puppy is just as bad.


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> Yeah.... Pretty sure making jokes about putting a bark collar on a kid is much less disgusting than actually putting a bark collar on a puppy.
> 
> Take the disgust you feel and really internalize it. That's how we feel about your situation and what you're doing to Geoff.
> 
> Reality checks aren't fun, are they?


I never really was a believer or fan of shock collars until one of our neighbors put in an underground fence. The dog had to wear a shock collar that would shock the dog whenever it reached the perimeter. It didn't take the dog long at all to learn its boundaries and eventually it didn't need to wear the collar at all. 

Pretty cool stuff.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

GizDaddy said:


> I never really was a believer or fan of shock collars until one of our neighbors put in an underground fence. The dog had to wear a shock collar that would shock the dog whenever it reached the perimeter. It didn't take the dog long at all to learn its boundaries and eventually it didn't need to wear the collar at all.
> 
> Pretty cool stuff.


Yes delivering an electric shock on an animal that has no understanding of WHY it is being shocked is pretty cool. Hurting animals because you don't want to put up an actual fence or are too lazy to spend time training it is pretty cool. Especially when that animal figures out that it can still do the thing that the shock is telling them not to, crosses the border, and then decides it's not worth going through it again to come home. Then it takes off, probably gets hit by a car or gets picked up by animal control who will only hold it for about a week before putting it down since they have no capacity for new animals to be adopted. Pretty cool stuff.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

GizDaddy said:


> I never really was a believer or fan of shock collars until one of our neighbors put in an underground fence. The dog had to wear a shock collar that would shock the dog whenever it reached the perimeter. It didn't take the dog long at all to learn its boundaries and eventually it didn't need to wear the collar at all.
> 
> Pretty cool stuff.


Oh yeah. Electric fences. You know what happened here two days ago? Neighbor's dog, a dog that had been trained on the fence and fine with it for ages, saw something he really wanted and was worth the shock. Blasted through the fence. Gone. It's been two days, as I said, and that first night was FREEZING and snowing. Yeah. They work SO well. 

There are myriad problems with electric fences, including the above example. The fences don't stop other animals or people from coming IN to the yard, for example, so your dog can be stolen or attacked with no problem.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

GizDaddy said:


> I never really was a believer or fan of shock collars until one of our neighbors put in an underground fence. The dog had to wear a shock collar that would shock the dog whenever it reached the perimeter. It didn't take the dog long at all to learn its boundaries and eventually it didn't need to wear the collar at all.
> 
> Pretty cool stuff.


Ummmm no not cool at all, plus they don't work sometimes because my dog used to live where the person had an electric fence. My dog would take a running start and then go right through the fence with a "yelp" didn't teach him anything, just shocked him and then he was free  now he lives with me and we have a fenced in backyard without getting shocked and he CAN'T get out so there's no problem. Though he's not outside all by himself all the time, I let him out to go potty and let him back in to cuddle with me.


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

When I said "pretty cool stuff" I was referring to the fact that the dog was intelligent enough to learn its boundaries so well that it no longer needed the shock collar. 

I understand that there are flaws with these systems though. That's why I plan to have my backyard fenced in for Abby (if the HOA would quit dragging their feet).


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> I've heard that bark collars work wonders on kids who won't be quiet. If you put them on pre-emptively, they won't even have the chance to bother you one bit!


No, no an e collar with a remote would be better, so you could use it to curb other unwanted behaviors, too


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

GizDaddy said:


> When I said "pretty cool stuff" I was referring to the fact that the dog was intelligent enough to learn its boundaries so well that it no longer needed the shock collar.


What's really cool is that if the owner is intelligent, too, they don't need to use a shock collar to train their dog.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Professor Chong said:


> All I mean is all child need parent to set discipline and rules. Without such kid destine grow up without understand how to be have in world.


Are you still talking about putting a bark collar on my kid...


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## New Day Alert Dog (Feb 5, 2016)

Hmmm, this is a bizarre thread. I think it is perfectly acceptable to choose not to have children, no need to disparage those who choose differently. Certainly no need to demean and belittle children. Children don't have fully developed bodies or brains. Many adults cannot regulate their emotions and behavior, it is not surprising or upsetting that children struggle as well. Parenting is a good and decent thing to do. The future of our species and various cultures depend on parents raising children. No need to disparage this. These facts in no way diminish your choice to not have children. 

Putting a shock collar on a puppy is upsetting. It does not demonstrate compassion by suggesting a collar be put on a child instead. I am sure it was a joke, but it was in terribly poor taste.

Dark bark, I am always amazed at how quickly I can quiet a dog by clicking for quiet. Check out clicker training, and how clickers can be used to mark and encourage more of the behavior you like. 

Also, sadly dogs and kids are just a tricky thing. We have always had dogs and we have three kids. Separation is your friend! Make use of baby gates, and only allow the child to interact if you are able to give the interaction your full attention. Familiarize yourself with calming signals and interrupt interactions when your dog starts to show any signs of discomfort or anxiety. Our children show our dogs a great deal of respect. They know that putting their face in a dogs face, hugging, bothering a resting dog, ignoring a calming signal etc. are all unacceptable. They know that they will be sent to time out if these things happen. As a result our dogs LOVE our kids.

You can do this! Good for you for seeking out help. 

1.Take off the bark collar
2. Read a good book (I like Patricia McConnells book 6 weeks to a Family Friendly Dog)
3. Start rewarding Geoff for everything you like (when he is quiet, when he is calm, when he isn't jumping, when he potties outside)
4. Master the art of recognizing calming signals (Sophia Yin has great information on this, there are some excellent YouTube videos as well). 
5. Keep your dog and kiddo separate for now (this is a marathon not a sprint, don't risk another bite there is way too much to lose)

Below is our daughter with one of our foster dogs. So sweet ?


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## Kate M (Sep 2, 2014)

New Day Alert Dog said:


> View attachment 222153
> Hmmm, this is a bizarre thread. I think it is perfectly acceptable to choose not to have children, no need to disparage those who choose differently. Certainly no need to demean and belittle children. Children don't have fully developed bodies or brains. Many adults cannot regulate their emotions and behavior, it is not surprising or upsetting that children struggle as well. Parenting is a good and decent thing to do. The future of our species and various cultures depend on parents raising children. No need to disparage this. These facts in no way diminish your choice to not have children.
> 
> Putting a shock collar on a puppy is upsetting. It does not demonstrate compassion by suggesting a collar be put on a child instead. I am sure it was a joke, but it was in terribly poor taste.
> ...


Yes, this. Thank you for posting.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

New Day Alert Dog said:


> Putting a shock collar on a puppy is upsetting. It does not demonstrate compassion by suggesting a collar be put on a child instead. I am sure it was a joke, but it was in terribly poor taste.


The joke was made in order to draw the parallels between putting a bark collar on a child and a bark collar on a puppy. They are both young animals who have no idea how they should behave without guidance.

We compare children to puppies quite often when it comes to training, actually. The joke was made for shock value, because the OP has shown a continued resistance to the idea that he is being almost incomprehensibly cruel to a puppy. If being nice doesn't do it (and many people have tried to be nice), then I'm going to be realistic. And in my world, putting a bark collar on a child and putting a bark collar on a puppy are on the same level of disgustingly cruel (I believe both should be misdemeanors and considered to be child endangerment/animal cruelty by the law).


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## MC-TO (Sep 12, 2014)

Yup there's a reason shock collars are banned in Quebec and Wales, Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Slovenia and Germany, with bans being pushed in lots of other places. If you want to heal the relationship between your child and puppy, get rid of the shock collar and start making interactions between the puppy and the child pleasurable for the puppy (treats, structured play).


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> The joke was made in order to draw the parallels between putting a bark collar on a child and a bark collar on a puppy. They are both young animals who have no idea how they should behave without guidance.
> 
> We compare children to puppies quite often when it comes to training, actually. The joke was made for shock value, because the OP has shown a continued resistance to the idea that he is being almost incomprehensibly cruel to a puppy. If being nice doesn't do it (and many people have tried to be nice), then I'm going to be realistic. And in my world, putting a bark collar on a child and putting a bark collar on a puppy are on the same level of disgustingly cruel (I believe both should be misdemeanors and considered to be child endangerment/animal cruelty by the law).


Yes, thats what I got from it, too, that if they would be willing to put a shock collar on what is essentially a BABY animal, who like a baby human cannot control their emotions, and has no idea how they should behave, then it is the same thing as putting one on a human infant, because to many of us, BOTH actions are equally cruel and disturbing.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yes, thats what I got from it, too, that if they would be willing to put a shock collar on what is essentially a BABY animal, who like a baby human cannot control their emotions, and has no idea how they should behave, then it is the same thing as putting one on a human infant, because to many of us, BOTH actions are equally cruel and disturbing.


in my defence he's almost 50 lbs... he's hardly small


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

How about just duct tape the dog's muzzle shut? Two birds with one stone - no barking and no biting! Also no drinking, eating, proper breathing, and eventually the dog would probably die...but hey, can't win em all. 

That seems along the lines of the only type of suggestion you'll actually listen to. 

There have been plenty of constructive ideas to help you. If you aren't willing to listen or learn, what are you doing on the forum? Just here to argue with people?


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

sydneynicole said:


> How about just duct tape the dog's muzzle shut? Two birds with one stone - no barking and no biting! Also no drinking, eating, proper breathing, and eventually the dog would probably die...but hey, can't win em all.
> 
> That seems along the lines of the only type of suggestion you'll actually listen to.
> 
> There have been plenty of constructive ideas to help you. If you aren't willing to listen or learn, what are you doing on the forum? Just here to argue with people?


He hasn't worn his bark collar since the day after I started this thread... get off your high horse

I'm trying different things and listening to suggestions so pump the brakes honey


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> in my defence he's almost 50 lbs... he's hardly small


He's still a baby. Plenty of large breed dogs hit 50 lbs way before adulthood, size still isn't an excuse for using painful/dangerous methods.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

dark_bark said:


> He hasn't worn his bark collar since the day after I started this thread... get off your high horse
> 
> I'm trying different things and listening to suggestions so pump the brakes honey


Nobody knows what you're doing or not doing unless you tell us, though!


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

dark_bark said:


> in my defence he's almost 50 lbs... he's hardly small


My puppy was 50 lbs at a little under 4 months old. Size is not an excuse or reason for how much punishment a dog can or can't take.

Glad to hear you've removed the bark collar. IF he starts barking unnecessarily, simply ignore him. IF he continues, put him calmly in a crate or behind a gate for timeout. If the only time he barks, he either gets ignored or gets a few minutes to himself, he will quickly realize that barking doesn't get him what he wants.


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## Rootin'Rigby (Dec 21, 2013)

This post is kind of why I don't come here very much. It's full of people who really know their stuff about dogs, but unfortunately are also quick to tell others how bad they are, or how stupid they are, etc. 

People come here for help. If they were doing things right, they wouldn't come here. They know something is wrong in what they're trying/doing, so they want advice. Why jump on them, making them feel inferior, or stupid?? Just give advice. I'm not saying everyone here does it, and there are nice people here too. But, it just gets me when people get so upset at somebody doing something wrong. Just be nice! Tell them in a nice way how to handle it, without being degrading. Something that you may feel in your mind is mean, or wrong or stupid, etc......may not have been thought about by that person. Try some guidance. 

Yes, you know your stuff.....you're the perfect dog owner and know everything there is to know about training a dog, and nobody in the world is as good as you, yada yada.......you can still be nice when helping people. You don't have to be arrogant about it.....

Just my two cents.......


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

Rootin'Rigby said:


> This post is kind of why I don't come here very much. It's full of people who really know their stuff about dogs, but unfortunately are also quick to tell others how bad they are, or how stupid they are, etc.
> 
> People come here for help. If they were doing things right, they wouldn't come here. They know something is wrong in what they're trying/doing, so they want advice. Why jump on them, making them feel inferior, or stupid?? Just give advice. I'm not saying everyone here does it, and there are nice people here too. But, it just gets me when people get so upset at somebody doing something wrong. Just be nice! Tell them in a nice way how to handle it, without being degrading. Something that you may feel in your mind is mean, or wrong or stupid, etc......may not have been thought about by that person. Try some guidance.
> 
> ...



Amen to this! Very well said...probably the best post I've read on this board in my short time here.


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## New Day Alert Dog (Feb 5, 2016)

Good point Root'inRigby. If the folks who need help are shamed, scolded and insulted then they probably won't come back. The losers will be the dogs.


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## Rootin'Rigby (Dec 21, 2013)

New Day Alert Dog said:


> Good point Root'inRigby. If the folks who need help are shamed, scolded and insulted then they probably won't come back. The losers will be the dogs.


Thanks. And you're right, the dogs are losing. 

I admit I don't dish out much advice, and don't contribute much. And it's because I know I'm not qualified to do so. I don't know near as much as a lot of people here, and I don't want to give wrong advice. But, I DO know that I love our dog, and want to do the right thing. That's one reason I come here when I feel I need advice. I also feel Rigby is a great dog, and we're doing our best. I think he's a funny little guy with a great personality. I might not be training him "right" but I would do anything for him, and we do our best.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Sadly, many people who post here don't want advice. They want to be told they're already doing the right thing and that the dog is at fault. They don't want to change and they don't want to take time to fix a problem; they want a quick fix. Many people who post here are offended no matter how nicely you explain to them that they're doing something wrong. You get disillusioned after years of giving the same advice over and over and you drop the sugar-coating; you become more blunt and direct. There's no excuse for personal attacks that have nothing to do with the situation, but there's nothing wrong with flat-out telling someone that (for example) putting a shock collar on a puppy is a dangerous and dumb thing to do. Sometimes people need to hear it. If they're going to ignore that and continue to harm their dog simply because they dislike how the advice was delivered, they weren't going to enjoy themselves here in the long run anyway.

(I'm not talking about the OP here. The OP has taken the bark collar off the puppy and is still here reading people's advice. The OP does not seem to need a white knight.)


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

I know I'm not perfect and for all intensive purposes consider myself a loving parent who's doing his best. I come here because they're are a bunch of people with a ton of knowledge and can be very helpful. I can take criticism very well, but the one thing that bugs me about this place is one particular Pre-Madonna mod that acts like he is Jesus. I'm not gonna name names but it rhymes with Don.

I do thank everyone for there help... Geoff is doing pretty good without the collar on and working on getting better. All in all it's going well.

I know I got a bad wrap at first but I am trying


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

dark_bark said:


> I know I'm not perfect and for all intensive purposes consider myself a loving parent who's doing his best. I come here because they're are a bunch of people with a ton of knowledge and can be very helpful. I can take criticism very well, but the one thing that bugs me about this place is one particular Pre-Madonna mod that acts like he is Jesus. I'm not gonna name names but it rhymes with Don.
> 
> I do thank everyone for there help... Geoff is doing pretty good without the collar on and working on getting better. All in all it's going well.
> 
> I know I got a bad wrap at first but I am trying


No one on any of your threads has behaved in any such way, and I'd be very careful about levelling insults like this, insults of any kind are not tolerated on this forum.


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## dark_bark (Feb 19, 2015)

Kuma'sMom said:


> No one on any of your threads has behaved in any such way, and I'd be very careful about levelling insults like this, insults of any kind are not tolerated on this forum.


I beg to deffer... read a couple post back, some folks have noticed how people jump all over you if your'e doing something wrong. I didn't insult anybody... he was the one that told me to have thick skin around here, so we should be fine

it's all good, I'm over it lets move on


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

dark_bark said:


> I beg to deffer... read a couple post back, some folks have noticed how people jump all over you if your'e doing something wrong. I didn't insult anybody... he was the one that told me to have thick skin around here, so we should be fine
> 
> it's all good, I'm over it lets move on


In case you hadn't realized, that was a warning from me as a mod to you. I'd suggest you accept and follow it rather than argue, as arguing with mod warnings is also against forum rules. 

And I have in fact read this entire thread, and no, no one has behaved in the manner you claim. In addition, the poster you are referring to is also a moderator, and it is a VERY bad idea to insult a mod if you wish to continue to participate in this forum. He is also very correct that if you wish to enjoy this forum, you will need to develop a much thicker skin. And yes, referring to someone as a prima donna that acts as if he is Jesus is most DEFINITELY an insult, maybe not bad enough to get you banned, but definitely enough to put you on some very thin ice.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Kuma'sMom said:


> In case you hadn't realized, that was a warning from me as a mod to you. I'd suggest you accept and follow it rather than argue, as arguing with mod warnings is also against forum rules.
> 
> And I have in fact read this entire thread, and no, no one has behaved in the manner you claim. In addition, the poster you are referring to is also a moderator, and it is a VERY bad idea to insult a mod if you wish to continue to participate in this forum. He is also very correct that if you wish to enjoy this forum, you will need to develop a much thicker skin. *And yes, referring to someone as a prima donna* that acts as if he is Jesus is most DEFINITELY an insult, maybe not bad enough to get you banned, but definitely enough to put you on some very thin ice.


But what about referring to them as a Pre-Madonna?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hiraeth said:


> But what about referring to them as a Pre-Madonna?


I guess that's a diva who was before Madonna . 

Anyone else know Malaprop Man from the Frank & Ernest comic? Lately I feel like he's been hitting this forum pretty hard .


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Mike Rawdog said:


> wait...its not pre-madonna?


No. It's prima donna, which means leading lady in Italian, referring to the diva attitude of the star of an opera or theater production. 

I feel like people shouldn't use idioms if they don't know what they mean. Google is your friend!


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Willowy said:


> No. It's prima donna, which means leading lady in Italian, referring to the diva attitude of the star of an opera or theater production.
> 
> I feel like people shouldn't use idioms if they don't know what they mean. Google is your friend!


You mean like "Rawdog"?


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Well if we're going to play that game. It's not intensive purposes either. Intents and purposes. Can we please just think about the sayings you TRY and use before doing so? Honestly most of them do make sense if you use them correctly. Some are just odd idiomatic phrases that make sense with the origin story behind them but a lot have easily determined meanings.

As to people being to harsh with those looking for help... In this case there is a history with the OP of tons of good advice given and ignored. History of a poster will not just be ignored and them only judged by the specific post the discussion is in. A lot of us remember and some will go back and look at post histories when they see from other responses that there is a history to see. This poster was treated with kindness and understanding... until they proved time and time again to ignore the good advice they received and complain about the things they DID try not working.


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

Whoa...prayers scent to the OP. 

Looks like I'm not the only one that's taken a beating on here for not being able to treat my Abby like Paris Hilton's little pocket book dog.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

GizDaddy said:


> Whoa...prayers scent to the OP.
> 
> Looks like I'm not the only one that's taken a beating on here for not being able to treat my Abby like Paris Hilton's little pocket book dog.


Let's be real here, you're taking a beating for treating your dog like a piece of garbage instead of a living thing.

ETA: Dog owning basics - food, water, shelter, affection. You're providing 50% of those things. You know what 50% is? An F. You've failed the dog ownership test.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

If you got a bad wrap, maybe just stick with a burger and fries next time.

and ... prayers scent ? ... this is just getting to be two funny.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Kuma'sMom said:


> And yes, referring to someone as a prima donna that acts as if he is Jesus is most DEFINITELY an insult, maybe not bad enough to get you banned, but definitely enough to put you on some very thin ice.


Actually, it IS enough for a short time-out.


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

petpeeve said:


> If you got a bad wrap, maybe just stick with a burger and fries next time.
> 
> and ... prayers scent ? ... this is just getting to be two funny.


Talk to text...got me again...smh


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## doodlebug124 (Oct 31, 2015)

petpeeve said:


> If you got a bad wrap, maybe just stick with a burger and fries next time.
> 
> and ... prayers scent ? ... this is just getting to be two funny.


The irony is just *too *funny.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Mike Rawdog said:


> too* funny
> 
> boom got one
> 
> this grammer policing is kinda fun


My mis-spelling was deliverate 

hehehe


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

RonE said:


> Actually, it IS enough for a short time-out.


I was meaning enough for a perma-ban, but upon thinking it over, I agree Ron.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

petpeeve said:


> My mis-spelling was deliverate
> 
> hehehe


Supposably!

Or maybe defiantly!


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Supposably!
> 
> Or maybe defiantly!


My eyes! They bleed!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

GizDaddy said:


> Whoa...prayers scent to the OP.
> 
> Looks like I'm not the only one that's taken a beating on here for not being able to treat my Abby like Paris Hilton's little pocket book dog.


Our dogs live inside, they eat top of the line food, get supplements, sleep on plush dog beds, I even bought my next vehicle with their comfort in mind!

Yep! guess that means I treat my dogs like Paris Hilton ... LOL.

All joking aside, what you are doing to your dog is CRUEL even if it is not by "technical" definition cruel, it is still cruel emotionally to her. and for that, I say shame on you.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Our dogs live inside, they eat top of the line food, get supplements, sleep on plush dog beds, I even bought my next vehicle with their comfort in mind!
> 
> Yep! guess that means I treat my dogs like Paris Hilton ... LOL.
> 
> All joking aside, what you are doing to your dog is CRUEL even if it is not by "technical" definition cruel, it is still cruel emotionally to her. and for that, I say shame on you.


Leaving a thunder-phobic dog outside in a thunderstorm so that the dog has seizures from sheer terror is cruel, both technically and actually. But take that with a grade of slaw. (Talk to text can be buggy, but you can totally read what got written before you press post. I hang out on a forum of disabled people, many of whom cannot use their hands at all, and I've never seen such varied and many errors.)


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

You all are wandering so far off topic that I'm have trouble distinguishing one abused, bullied, misunderstood member from another.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> Leaving a thunder-phobic dog outside in a thunderstorm so that the dog has seizures from sheer terror is cruel, both technically and actually. But take that with a grade of slaw. (Talk to text can be buggy, but you can totally read what got written before you press post. I hang out on a forum of disabled people, many of whom cannot use their hands at all, and I've never seen such varied and many errors.)


right?! This is the reason why I normally don't use the forum unless I am on my laptop, LOL.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

RonE said:


> You all are wandering so far off topic that I'm have trouble distinguishing one abused, bullied, misunderstood member from another.


I'm pretty sure Amaryllis volunteered to make a flow graph somewhere so that we could keep them straight...


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Hiraeth said:


> I'm pretty sure Amaryllis volunteered to make a flow graph somewhere so that we could keep them straight...


That would be excellent. I LOVE flow charts. 

I use Viso so that would be my preferred format. A PowerPoint would also be acceptable. 

Be sure and include all relevant details: Bark collars, over-medication, indoor dog booted outdoors, etc.

A glossary of made-up words and phrases would be most helpful.


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## Rootin'Rigby (Dec 21, 2013)

Sew, what pacifically are you all trying to say??


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Our dogs live inside, they eat top of the line food, get supplements, sleep on plush dog beds, I even bought my next vehicle with their comfort in mind!
> 
> Yep! guess that means I treat my dogs like Paris Hilton ... LOL.
> 
> All joking aside, what you are doing to your dog is CRUEL even if it is not by "technical" definition cruel, it is still cruel emotionally to her. and for that, I say shame on you.





Amaryllis said:


> Leaving a thunder-phobic dog outside in a thunderstorm so that the dog has seizures from sheer terror is cruel, both technically and actually. But take that with a grade of slaw. (Talk to text can be buggy, but you can totally read what got written before you press post. I hang out on a forum of disabled people, many of whom cannot use their hands at all, and I've never seen such varied and many errors.)


Actually, Abby wasn't left outside in the thunderstorm...and we've successfully avoided seizures for over a year now being that we use the medication that our vet prescribed during periods of high anxiety (i.e. Fireworks, thunderstorms, etc).

And despite what many of you think, Abby is very loved and is treated better than many other dogs out there. While her current situation is not ideal...it is also TEMPORARY (don't know why so many of yall can't comprehend that). And I've filtered through the hate and gotten some good ideas on things we can do to improve it further. I've also already made my wife aware that no matter what the cost is, I plan to do whatever I have to do to make her situation better...and ultimately, if there's nothing we can do, then rehoming her will be our final plan of action.

Lastly, we did not over-medicate her. I asked if anyone here had ever used Benadryl along with Valium, as the Valium by itself just doesn't seem to be as effective as it initially was. I asked this because I didn't want her to have a seizure when I was not home to be with her, and my vet seemed to be giving me a generic (scripted) answer to that question as if her hands were tied on what she really wanted to say. I then used some of the 'friendly' advice on here, and chose to have my neighbor just give her the Valium by itself. 

You guys do realize that many people have to take multiple types of blood pressure, cholesterol, diabetic, etc medications in order to achieve a desired effect, because just one doesn't work by itself...right?

*Side note, every seizure Abby has ever had (when I was aware), I've sat in the floor and held her as she went through it...as she vomited all over me and the floor. 

*On that same note...when Giz was in her final months, I slept downstairs on the couch EVERY NIGHT for about 5 months and put her PLUSH dog bed beside me so I could be there for her at 2-3 AM when she needed to go potty. And when she was in her last days, I CARRIED her outside and held her up while she pottied. And her her last minutes, I sat on the floor at 4 in the morning and petted her while crying my eyes out as she took her last breaths...then drove her almost 3 hours away to my parents farm to bury her next to her mother.

So maybe pump the brakes a bit before being so quick to 'delittle' someone just because they don't share the exact same mindset as you. I've had several people tell me I don't love my dog...and you couldn't be further from the truth. I want Abby's situation to improve drastically more than anybody...and I've already said that if I can't do that then I will rehome her. 

But no, go ahead and continue to make unnecessary remarks and insults about what a terrible person I am...i have thick feathers that don't get 'russelled' easily...but if you're going to do that, atleast get your facts straight first.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't know why you keep trying. Now you're being a distraction on other people's threads instead of just your own. 

Firstly, stop it with the stupid and ridiculous typos. It's no longer amusing. Actually, it wasn't even amusing at the beginning. We've been poking fun at you for several days now because we know you're doing it intentionally.

Secondly, you don't love your dog. No one who loves their dog would force their elderly Golden with a seizure disorder to live outside and get no attention for days on end. NO ONE. The only dogs your dog is treated better than are dogs who are homeless and on the street. Even shelter dogs get more walks and attention than your dog does.

Sorry buddy, your bullcrap act isn't flying here. At best you're just here to RUFFLE the feathers of the dog lovers on this forum. At worst, you really are as despicable as your posts make you out to be.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> While her current situation is not ideal...it is also TEMPORARY (don't know why so many of yall can't comprehend that).


Oh, so Abby WON'T be left as an outdoor dog permanently? That's fantastic, what solution did you manage to come up with to allow her to return to being an indoor dog?


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> I don't know why you keep trying. Now you're being a distraction on other people's threads instead of just your own.
> 
> Firstly, stop it with the stupid and ridiculous typos. It's no longer amusing. Actually, it wasn't even amusing at the beginning. We've been poking fun at you for several days now because we know you're doing it intentionally.
> 
> ...


So "I" can't post in this thread about 'my' situation, but other people (including a Mod) can make backhanded comments/insults about MY situation in this thread? Cool...got it! Thanks sunshine!


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

GizDaddy said:


> Actually, Abby wasn't left outside in the thunderstorm...and we've successfully avoided seizures for over a year now being that we use the medication that our vet prescribed during periods of high anxiety (i.e. Fireworks, thunderstorms, etc).
> 
> And despite what many of you think, Abby is very loved and is treated better than many other dogs out there. While her current situation is not ideal...it is also TEMPORARY (don't know why so many of yall can't comprehend that). And I've filtered through the hate and gotten some good ideas on things we can do to improve it further. I've also already made my wife aware that no matter what the cost is, I plan to do whatever I have to do to make her situation better...and ultimately, if there's nothing we can do, then rehoming her will be our final plan of action.
> 
> ...


I take multiple medications. I have epilepsy so I can relate to what your dog is going through and I will tell you right now if my husband treated me like you treat your dog I would divorce him (or worse). I take all sorts of medications and supplements. I run all of those drugs past each one of my doctors and specialists before taking them in combination. My pharmacist is aware of every single medication, supplement and over the counter pill I take. If anything pops up as counter indicated she tells me and I go back to my doctors and ask them what is up (hey my pharmacist has been with me for years, she knows my drug allergies better than I do most of the time). I am counting on these people to keep me well so no, I don't think it is ok to just brush off the medical advice and try to give something extra. 

I get it, you are trying to make yourself sound better and feel better but the fact is your elderly dog is sitting alone outside on a chain. Some dogs are perfectly fine being outdoor dogs, your dog is not one of them and no heated dog house or toy is going to make her one. 



Hiraeth said:


> I don't know why you keep trying. Now you're being a distraction on other people's threads instead of just your own.
> 
> Firstly, stop it with the stupid and ridiculous typos. It's no longer amusing. Actually, it wasn't even amusing at the beginning. We've been poking fun at you for several days now because we know you're doing it intentionally.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. 



Kuma'sMom said:


> Oh, so Abby WON'T be left as an outdoor dog permanently? That's fantastic, what solution did you manage to come up with to allow her to return to being an indoor dog?


I would love to hear this as well.


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Oh, so Abby WON'T be left as an outdoor dog permanently? That's fantastic, what solution did you manage to come up with to allow her to return to being an indoor dog?


Yes ma'am that's correct. I've said multiple times that if her situation at home can't be improved where she's comfortable the we will rehome her...and if I have to rehome her she will definitely go to a home where she can be indoors.


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## GizDaddy (Feb 17, 2016)

Remaru said:


> I take multiple medications. I have epilepsy so I can relate to what your dog is going through and I will tell you right now if my husband treated me like you treat your dog I would divorce him (or worse). I take all sorts of medications and supplements. I run all of those drugs past each one of my doctors and specialists before taking them in combination. My pharmacist is aware of every single medication, supplement and over the counter pill I take. If anything pops up as counter indicated she tells me and I go back to my doctors and ask them what is up (hey my pharmacist has been with me for years, she knows my drug allergies better than I do most of the time). I am counting on these people to keep me well so no, I don't think it is ok to just brush off the medical advice and try to give something extra.
> 
> I get it, you are trying to make yourself sound better and feel better but the fact is your elderly dog is sitting alone outside on a chain. Some dogs are perfectly fine being outdoor dogs, your dog is not one of them and no heated dog house or toy is going to make her one.
> 
> ...


Not trying to make myself feel better one bit...I feel just fine actually. I'm just using facts to further prove that you guys are very incorrect in your ASSumptions about me.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

GizDaddy said:


> So "I" can't post in this thread about 'my' situation, but other people (including a Mod) can make backhanded comments/insults about MY situation in this thread? Cool...got it! Thanks sunshine!


Let's be absolutely clear. The "situation" of which you speak is of YOUR making. You're not the victim. Your dog is. 

And the comments were pretty direct - not backhanded at all. 

Take a little time off to think that over.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

GizDaddy said:


> Yes ma'am that's correct. I've said multiple times that if her situation at home can't be improved where she's comfortable the we will rehome her...and if I have to rehome her she will definitely go to a home where she can be indoors.


So her situation ISN'T temporary then, you still intend to keep her as an outdoor dog. Gotcha.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> So her situation ISN'T temporary then, you still intend to keep her as an outdoor dog. Gotcha.


Because it would hurt HIM to let her go. The pain she is experiencing is irrelevant.


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## Oatsy (Jul 29, 2015)

Rootin'Rigby said:


> This post is kind of why I don't come here very much. It's full of people who really know their stuff about dogs, but unfortunately are also quick to tell others how bad they are, or how stupid they are, etc.
> 
> People come here for help. If they were doing things right, they wouldn't come here. They know something is wrong in what they're trying/doing, so they want advice. Why jump on them, making them feel inferior, or stupid?? Just give advice. I'm not saying everyone here does it, and there are nice people here too. But, it just gets me when people get so upset at somebody doing something wrong. Just be nice! Tell them in a nice way how to handle it, without being degrading. Something that you may feel in your mind is mean, or wrong or stupid, etc......may not have been thought about by that person. Try some guidance.
> 
> ...


I've seen the "experts" here be nice until their well thought out advice is argued with or put down b/c the OP decides to go back to doing whatever it is that brought them here in the first place. Why ask for help if you're not going to take it or even take offense to it? 

When you have years of experience and take time out of your day to help someone and then they sit there and argue with you, nice goes out the window. 

The nature of some of the issues also kicks the formality of being nice to the curb.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think people are confusing "rude" and "being put down" with people being direct and to the point, I for one LIKE how people here will tell folks exactly what they need to hear and not "spare feelings" (even though it may hurt to hear that you have been using a bad training method, or said breed wouldnt be a good fit for your family) it's still good to KNOW.

And FYI when the majority of the members here AGREE on something (which is NOT a common occurrence around here LOL) then that, in of itself says something.


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## Rootin'Rigby (Dec 21, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I think people are confusing "rude" and "being put down" with people being direct and to the point, I for one LIKE how people here will tell folks exactly what they need to hear and not "spare feelings" (even though it may hurt to hear that you have been using a bad training method, or said breed wouldnt be a good fit for your family) it's still good to KNOW.
> 
> And FYI when the majority of the members here AGREE on something (which is NOT a common occurrence around here LOL) then that, in of itself says something.


Telling the OP to put a bark collar on her child isn't rude?? Ok then......

How about, "A Bark collar isn't a good idea, because ___________. I would try a different method such as __________" That is direct and to the point, without being rude.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

In my opinion, _joking_ that the OP should put the bark collar on his kid was a good way to draw a parallel between putting it on a child and putting it on a puppy (the canine equivalent of a child). Sometimes people need to be shocked like that to realize that what they're doing is bad.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Oh, it is time for the inevitable tone-policing stage of the discussion?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> In my opinion, _joking_ that the OP should put the bark collar on his kid was a good way to draw a parallel between putting it on a child and putting it on a puppy (the canine equivalent of a child). Sometimes people need to be shocked like that to realize that what they're doing is bad.


Agreed.

(Too short)


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Rootin'Rigby said:


> Telling the OP to put a bark collar on her child isn't rude?? Ok then......
> 
> How about, "A Bark collar isn't a good idea, because ___________. I would try a different method such as __________" That is direct and to the point, without being rude.


How about you report a post if you feel it is rude, rather than attempt to tell people how they should post, which could be considered backseat moderating, which is very much against forum rules.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Rootin'Rigby said:


> Telling the OP to put a bark collar on her child isn't rude?? Ok then......
> 
> How about, "A Bark collar isn't a good idea, because ___________. I would try a different method such as __________" That is direct and to the point, without being rude.


Did you happen to skip the first six pages of the thread? The 'take the bark collar off' advice was phrased nicely repeatedly. And OP (who is a male, might I add), still said "well, I'm going to give it a few more days and see how it goes".

Not sure if it got the result we were looking for or not, but I made the bark collar on a child joke and all of a sudden the puppy is no longer wearing a bark collar. Maybe that's not why the OP decided to remove it, and maybe it is. OP is the only one who can clear that up. 

Sometimes people distance themselves from what they're doing to animals and parallels need to be drawn so that they understand what they're doing to a baby thing isn't okay. If someone rubs their puppy's face in poop to get it to stop pooping in the house, or squirts their dog in the eyes with lemon juice, you can bet money that I'm going to say 'would you do that to a kid? No, okay, then don't do it to a puppy'. 

Puppies should be treated exactly how kids are treated when it comes to teaching them new things. With patience, kindness, respect and more patience. And when someone doesn't do that and is abusing their puppy (and yes, I think putting a bark collar on a puppy is abusive), then I'm going to say something. And the something may not be very nice, because I'm not a 'sit by the sidelines and watch abuse take place' kind of person. If you'd rather not ruffle feathers and would rather sugar coat to the point of ignoring the fact that abuse is taking place, then that's fine. But when I see abuse, I'm going to call it what it is and I'm going to do my best to either inform or shock the OP into seeing that what they're doing is abuse, as well. I tried to inform OP, and it didn't work. Next step was drawing a harsh parallel so that he understood exactly what he was doing to his puppy.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have not been coming here much the past year or so, but used to be a regular. I would like to think I managed to help a lot of newbies on this site in the past and learned from others experiences as well. I have to say that it has changed and I find it so sad that people are unable or unwilling to try to help people without being insulting and rude. What is most scary is that people don't even see it as such any more and will continue to defend this bad behavior. I hope that the OP learned what he needed to so that this pups life will be improved greatly. There were some thoughtful, well written posts here that hopefully accomplished that task.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I will agree, but I will say that it is very hard to have patience when it's someone that is simply not using common sense.


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## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

GizDaddy said:


> Yes ma'am that's correct. I've said multiple times that if her situation at home can't be improved where she's comfortable the we will rehome her...and if I have to rehome her she will definitely go to a home where she can be indoors.


and how long will this take for you to figure out? She isn't comfortable now, how long will you let her be outside uncomfortable until "you" decided she isn't comfortable and rehome her??


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