# Seeking Advice on Guard/Protection Dogs



## kumir (Nov 13, 2009)

We were burglarized twice in one week in two different locations in different countries. In the second burglary we had a face to face encounter in our bedroom with a skilled thief whom we believed had sprayed us (including our infant baby) mildly but kept staying in for too long to search for jewels etc. Now we are suffering from stress, sleeplessness and general anxiety. I am not very confident with alarms (we have one) for reasons that are too long to explain here and wish to get a second dog.

We have a 1.5 year old male Lab in our garden, a so so watch dog, who barked during the first burglary but did not attack the thieves as expected. Overall he is a pet dog who thinks the whole world is ought to play with him !

My Alternatives
1. A local trusted dog breeder offered a 2 or 3 year old highly trained working-line German Shephard (not the cuter show dogs). We can keep this dog in the garden. The breeder says this dog will not eat poisoned meat yet I am unsure about this. 
2. A female Dob who can stay at home inside with us. To me this is the ultimate protection but then our Lab will be so upset that he will get sick.
3. A small dog that will just bark if someone comes in !

Can you give me any advice ? I would especially wish to hear from pros and people who use a guard/protection dog. My priority is not myself but more my wife and especially our baby who sleeps in a separate room.

We love our Lab and wish to keep him yet our safety comes first so if he cannot handle or will spoil the guard dog then maybe we should not keep him.

Thanks many times !

And my 2 cents on thieves :
A skilled, professional thief can not only rob you but even take your underwear if you live, like I did, with the illusion that you will wake up to him making some sounds and then show him his day ! Make your area safe before focusing on alarms etc. And have a proper insurance policy against burglary.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I would get an alarm system and a gun. 

I believe in guard/protection dogs very much but they are not your only means of protection nor is it solely their job to protect. You work as a team with your dog and the dog can only do so much. There are armed intruders and those which are not scared of dogs/will fight. You need to be the one who aids the dog and takes the guy out. As well if you have an alarm system it will alert you/the law when someone is breaking in.


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

I would personnaly recommend a good electronic alarm system. Full-proof, will not lick the thieve, and no risk around kids. I think options 1 or 2 do not guarantee more "protection", apart from a dissuasive effect. GSP and Dobes, contrary to popular belief, are not born watchdogs or protection dogs. The dobes I know would gladly let the intruder inside if they can scratch ears and rub bellies. Option 3 can sound god, but find a small breed which is ok with kids: many are not recommended with small children because they are easily hurt by kids being kids.

Why not let your lab inside the house for the night? He might have more of a tendency to bark if inside when thieves come, as they will not get a chance to talk to him and come up slowly as they can when he is outside.

Edited to add: this is my opinion only, and other people here, who have a lot more experience with this topic than I do, will surely chime in soon.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I agree with the alarm system. 

A dog such as the GSD you describe is a HUGE responsibility, more than a little liability to own and manage, and NOT a dog for a novice owner. I would not suggest it.


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## Rottieluv (Oct 11, 2009)

A good alarm system and a gun would be a good thing to get. My dog does a great job as far as keeping me safe when on walks and i'm sure most people that know we have him wouldnt want to break in, but what if someone came in with a gun? They could kill the dog if they knew about it. We have two guns right now and when we buy a house we will be getting an alarm system first thing. Dogs are more of a deterrent for me, because most people are scared of big dogs. I know this sounds bad, but I would much rather shoot someone (not kill them) than send in my dog and him get killed. You could also try burglar bars on the windows low enough for people to get in. I know they dont look good, but they will help keep you safe.


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## kumir (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks for your suggestions !

We both had alarms on both occasions but did not use them. On first occasion I lived there more than 12 years with no incidences so...I was a fool. On the second one, we had just bought the house and getting the alarm guy was on our to do list. Still a fool for not fixing the alarm the very first thing.

These events took place in eastern and western Europe, both in gated secure communities and in these countries thieves normally do not carry guns, as gun would mean many more years in jail. Also I was warned not to carry a gun as a thief may panic and use his gun if he thinks I have one. If he has one but I don't I will be robbed but he would not shoot me. Also here it is a crime to kill a thief even inside your home as long as he is outside your bedroom.

Regarding the alarms, I trust them less when I saw what the alarm guy can do. We can not live in our house with motion detectors as we need to walk to our baby's room so we use the "stay" function. Yet I believe it is not so hard to bypass this or to break a window without triggering the magnetic sensors. 

And anyway I do not wish to wake up at 3:30AM with the panic of an alarm. I want to stop or discourage these guys outside our garden.

A good guard dog will protect the family 24x7 so that's why I find it attractive. A close relative had two regular (non-trained) German Shephards and those dogs were really defending their territory, much unlike our playful Lab who can not even notice a cat from 15 yards ahead. If the thieves throw a ball, he might probably run to retrieve it !

We are comfortable with dogs and I know how much time and effort is needed to take care of them with their bad habits and health issues and the daily walks and runs etc. I have no idea what extra responsibility a guard/protection dog will bring ?

Can you suggest any articles about the responsibilities of guard dogs ?

If a guard dog is really hard to take care of maybe we can just get a territorial breed that will protect us and our garden ?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

If you buy a trained protection dog you will have to call up your insurance agency to see if they cover that. Because I buglar CAN sue you and win (it's happened before) if they get bit by your dog while breaking in.


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## kumir (Nov 13, 2009)

Keechak said:


> If you buy a trained protection dog you will have to call up your insurance agency to see if they cover that. Because I buglar CAN sue you and win (it's happened before) if they get bit by your dog while breaking in.


I prefer a lawsuit to waking up to my wife's screams. But thanks for the suggestion. I will also talk with the police (and insurance and lawyer) as I met more than 12 of them !


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Many breeds are a strong deterrent just be being present. If you wish to acquire such a dog, I recommend you research breeders, and get a puppy and raise it. In this way the dog grows up with you and your kids, and will naturally be territorially protective of your home and family.

Be aware that, just like a dog who has been trained to guard, these breeds require early and consistent training, and owners who will make and enforce reasonable rules for the dog. Secure confinement is also necessary.

Breeds to research and consider in addition to the GSD might include:

Rottweiler
Belgian Shepherds
Giant Schnauzer
Bull Mastiff
Dutch Shepherd
Bouvier
Beauceron

Others may have more suggestions.


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## prntmkr (Jan 17, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Many breeds are a strong deterrent just be being present. If you wish to acquire such a dog, I recommend you research breeders, and get a puppy and raise it. In this way the dog grows up with you and your kids, and will naturally be territorially protective of your home and family.
> 
> Be aware that, just like a dog who has been trained to guard, these breeds require early and consistent training, and owners who will make and enforce reasonable rules for the dog. Secure confinement is also necessary.
> 
> ...


Aside from my list being somewhat different than Redyre’s, I agree completely! 

In Canada, we’re not quite as gun-loving as our neighbors to the south. Having said that, if I could - yes, I would most certainly have a gun for protection. And I do agree that, if you feel vulnerable and are able to … get a good alarm system, a good gun, and _learn how to use both properly_…

We have a friend who has owned an alarm business for many years. He came to our home quite some time ago to advise us on the installation of a system. Upon confronting our (very sweet but protective) dog (who was safely behind the other side of our locked door), he told me straight out that, not only did we _not_ “need” an alarm system, but that our dog would be a far more effective deterrent than the best system he could install. Nonetheless, we did get an alarm system from him (which we no longer bother using).

As has been mentioned, a trained guard dog is an enormous ongoing responsibility. On the other hand, raising and training a well-bred guardian breed from puppyhood can be a wonderful family experience. There is a definite benefit of having a guarding breed if, for no other reason, the “feeling” of safety and well-being - especially when it comes to one’s family. 

Depending upon the breed and individual, a guardian dog can make a wonderful, sweet, caring companion, especially for the kids…

However, these dogs are not Labs. And like with any breed bred for work, there is an intensity that comes with the territory. The first question you should ask yourself is if you honestly feel that this type of dog is right for you and your family!?!

You should also be aware that many of the best guarding breeds become very attached to their families. A gun is a tool; a dog is not. IMO your dog should be an integral part of your family - not "put away" until needed. To leave certain guardians outside “in the garden” would cruel punishment, and could lead to some nasty consequences in both temperament and reaction. 

As far as recommending breeds, all guardian breeds are not alike; a best choice depends upon you, your personality, lifestyle and family.

Best of luck!!!


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## kumir (Nov 13, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Many breeds are a strong deterrent just be being present. If you wish to acquire such a dog, I recommend you research breeders, and get a puppy and raise it.


This I would like to do yet I fear our Lab might spoil this newcoming pup. On the other hand a 2 year old dog will see us different and maybe more distanced as we were not there when she was 8 weeks old.



prntmkr said:


> You should also be aware that many of the best guarding breeds become very attached to their families. A gun is a tool; a dog is not. IMO your dog should be an integral part of your family - not "put away" until needed. To leave certain guardians outside “in the garden” would cruel punishment, and could lead to some nasty consequences in both temperament and reaction.


They need closeness for sure. Our Lab is a "window-sticker" meaning he wants physical contact with us at all times if he can have it. But we can manage him. (he is in the garden because we have a big garden with a pond and he gets muddy, wet and dirty every single day) 

Other than being played in the garden and the regular daily activities, I touch him, hold his head in my hands for 5 minutes without doing anything else, so he is sure to have direct physical and emotional contact everyday. Maybe because of this he has no behavioral problems. We have a good trust between us so does not think or feel we let him down. He is happy.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

No, your Lab will not change the inherent territorial temperament of breeds who are bred for such.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND your acquiring an adult already trained dog. The potential for serious problems is too great. A properly bred, raised, socialized and obedience trained dog of the proper breed will naturally warn trespassers to stay off their turf.


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> I am not very confident with alarms (we have one) for reasons that are too long to explain here and wish to get a second dog.


Well, when you mention that...



> We both had alarms on both occasions but did not use them.


Hate to admit this, but...



> On first occasion I lived there more than 12 years with no incidences so...I was a fool.





> Still a fool for not fixing the alarm the very first thing.


I agree with you that you're a fool for the exact reasons you mentioned.



> I believe in guard/protection dogs very much but they are not your only means of protection nor is it solely their job to protect. You work as a team with your dog and the dog can only do so much. There are armed intruders and those which are not scared of dogs/will fight. You need to be the one who aids the dog and takes the guy out. As well if you have an alarm system it will alert you/the law when someone is breaking in.


Happen to agree 110%



> Also I was warned not to carry a gun as a thief may panic and use his gun if he thinks I have one. If


Whoever gave you that advice is a fool as well.

An intruder either knows you have a gun or you don't. The question is if you're preapared and ready to use the weapon, which an alarm system will aid you (as well as dogs who will wake you).

Buy a weapon and put in it the nightstand for protection and never practice, only bad things will happen if you ever need it.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

kumir said:


> And anyway I do not wish to wake up at 3:30AM with the panic of an alarm. I want to stop or discourage these guys outside our garden.


Hm. I would assume that alarm or dog, if there was an intruder you WOULD be woken up. And if you don't like the idea of being woken up during a break in.. what do you plan on doing with the dog? Protection dogs work as a team with their owner, not just hang around the garden and fight off anyone trying to come in. From my understanding, the dogs job is to stop the attack until the owner can step in. 

Get an alarm, and use it. And get a gun if you're willing to learn how to use one. We have our dog alarm, our Elkhound, but we don't expect him or the others to protect us. If you break into our house you're going to be much more afraid of me than one of my dogs.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I've been burglarized before too. I would not get an alarm system. IMO, they're a huge waste of money. My dogs sleep inside. If someone comes in, they'll bark. That's my alarm system and it's fuzzier than anything from Securenet. A gun and a barking dog in the house are the best defense. If a burglar hears a large dog (or a large sounding dog) inside the house, he's likely to move on next door. If you hear your dog barking and know the dog is barking at someone inside, then you take your gun and, if the person is not someone you can identify or refuses to identify themselves, you shoot them first. Let their heirs try to sue you if they can is my philosophy.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

someone tried to break in our new house (lower floor)... I went out and got a "Beware of Dog" sign and then realized... No matter how a thief got in (since we are on upper floor)--- theyd meet our dog and in order for them to get out, theyd have to re-meet our dog. It wouldnt be easy for them to get in, get stuff, and walk out quietly. KWIM? So can you maybe out your dog in a central location that you would hear it barking and could deter someone from getting anywhere?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> Rottweiler
> Belgian Shepherds
> Giant Schnauzer
> Bull Mastiff
> ...


Indeed:


9mm semi-automatic S&W with a 17-round clip full of jacketed hollowpoints
12-gauge pump with 00 buckshot
(I hope I don't turn this into another firearms thread, but a lab is a great family dog for the same reason they are lousy guard dogs - they generally love everybody.)


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> 12-gauge pump with 00 buckshot


Remington youth 870 pump, 20 gauge. Small, lightweight, can shoot one handed in akward positions if need be, and the biggest reason, the misses feels very comfortable with it.



> I hope I don't turn this into another firearms thread


Too late LOL


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

Well for one time I agree with Ron, the 9mm is a sweet firing weapon, I have a browning High power. In addition to the dogs you can setup a Vietnam type trip wires, instead of grenades a string of empty beer cans will make enough noise to wake you up and arm yourself. JMO


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> Well for one time I agree with Ron,


Bob, I'm stunned. What could I have ever said that you could possibly disagree with? I just can't imagine anyone more agreeable and easy-going than me.










(Note to self. Look for excuse to ban BobSD.)


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## Meshkenet (Oct 2, 2009)

Seriously, guns are not such a good idea: to be effective, they have to be easily accessible in case of a break-in. The OP said he has a child... easily accessible weapon + young child = recipe for disaster.

My personal alarm dogs are a Chihuahua and an Australian Shepherd cross. Both bark if some stranger comes close to the house. I seriously think the Chi would attack long before the Aussie, but never had the misfortune to test that hypothesis. The Leonberger-x on the other hand, even though he is a lot larger and probably more intimidating, would let the intruder in, show him where the valuables are and lick him on his way out.

I don't necessarily like the idea of getting the dog only for protection/intimidation. My dogs are with me inside and are part of the family. Whatever floats your boat, I guess, as long as your pups are well taken care of, and socialized with people and other dogs. I prefer to have them by my side.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Meshkenet said:


> Seriously, guns are not such a good idea: to be effective, they have to be easily accessible in case of a break-in. The OP said he has a child... easily accessible weapon + young child = recipe for disaster.


There is this awesome thing called gun safety education, though. And if you're any good you can load a weapon pretty quickly. We have two doors that are about 30 feet and 6 stairs away from our bedroom, and I can have a gun locked and loaded well before anyone finishes getting in, let alone close to me.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

to everyone suggesting guns be aware that the OP is in Europe, where they have totally different laws regarding guns. The OP is not in America. 

And shooting a gun inside of a house can be a bad idea, you can run the risk of shooting your own child sleeping in another room. If I had to choose between accidentally shooting my toddler and getting robbed, I'll take getting robbed. Even if it means waking up to the screams of my SO. Also depending on how close your home is to neighbors, you run the risk of shooting other people. 

IF you do go the gun route, train yourself how to safely use and clean one. And keep it stored in a LOCKED gun box besides the bed. We had one that would fly open very quickly after pushing in the combo. Leaving a loaded weapon out on a nightstand is an accident waiting to happen. esp if you have young children in the home. 

With that said I have always felt that a protection dog, in the hands of a non-professional, is much like a having a loaded weapon lying about the house. Or rather like a loaded gun about to go off. I would leave the serious protection attack dogs in the hands of pro's. 

If I were you I'd clean the Lab up and bring him/her inside to spend the night in your bedroom. The dog will wake up and bark if someone breaks in. And turn on your alarm system.


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## kumir (Nov 13, 2009)

NRB said:


> to everyone suggesting guns be aware that the OP is in Europe, where they have totally different laws regarding guns. The OP is not in America.


Yes, people and criminals carry much less guns, there is not much of a gun culture here. Also you face a very big problem if your gun is stolen and used to shoot someone. I would prefer being burglarized/robbed to getting in a gunfight in my house. As mentioned this is a culturally different setting.

After the second burglary I had a walkthrough in our new house with three armed policemen and believe me (unless you are a military type of trained person) it is not very pleasent to walk the rooms with a loaded gun in your hand. Even the police were stressed and nervous !



NRB said:


> With that said I have always felt that a protection dog, in the hands of a non-professional, is much like a having a loaded weapon lying about the house. Or rather like a loaded gun about to go off. I would leave the serious protection attack dogs in the hands of pro's.


This I understand as so many people in this forum warned me against. I am not  going to get a protection dog specifically trained to attack intruders.



NRB said:


> If I were you I'd clean the Lab up and bring him/her inside to spend the night in your bedroom. The dog will wake up and bark if someone breaks in. And turn on your alarm system.


Can dogs be washed every day ? I though this wasn't nice. Our dog gets not dirty but real muddy as he swims every single day. Also he is a GREAT retriever with sharp and powerful instincts to find and retrieve things but other than that I have very big doubts as to his efficiency as a watch dog inside or outside the house. It definitely is not his character.

Probably we will get a GSD and try to choose a puppy that comes from parents who have hopefully strong territorial instincts. As I wrote before, I saw pretty impressive regular, non-trained GSD's. I will raise and socialise the puppy, she will not be a protection dog but a territorial one defending her garden.

Anyway all these advice help me a lot, thanks to all !


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Where in Europe do you live? You do have many good GSD breeders available to you, but please do a LOT Of research on the breed before you purchase a puppy!

You really don't want to train a dog to be territorial, especially a breed like the GSD (I may be misunderstanding as I do believe we have a minor language barrier going on here).

You want to socialize the SNOT out of them when they're young (really and truly, I wouldn't lie to you). While being protective is genetically inherent within the breed, it will not express itself until the dog is older, between 2-5 years of age (it varies by dog AND line!).

My male (GSD) is a very social boy, but those on the forum that have met him (not those here that KNOW him, but have just MET him for a brief period of time) can tell you how discerning and (almost overly) aware of his surroundings he is.

He likes to meet new people (though not with the fervor of our Labrador) but he is very good at alerting us to "intruders". Long before the Labrador alerts my Shepherd alerts. I would also like to say that when he DOES alert it is not with a menacing bark (there is no growling or snort rumbling) but it is with great enthusiasm.

It is loud, it is consistent (it is not boowoowooowoo! like many dogs, it is WOOF! WOOF! WOOF! very distinct) and it is FRIGHTENING if you do not know who (or what) my dog is.

He does his job very well and his job is only to bark at the door and when I tell him "Thank you! That's enough!" he stops. That is his cue that the person that has come to call is no threat and he may greet them.

There have been two occasions inside our home where the person that appeared was NOT an ok person, and I made my dog sit (The other person outside could not see, the door was still closed) and I gave him the signal and quietly told him "Gib Laut!"

If you're not German, all it means is "Speak!" But his "speak" command becomes an entirely different bark. It is much higher pitched and he will bark in random sequences (Woof! Woofwoofwoof! Woof! Woof woof! kinds of things). While as his handler and trainer I know all this means is "DOG GONE IT WOMAN, GIVE ME MY COOKIE!!!!" to a possibly dangerous person it means "Ohhhhhhhh the dog is REALLY PO'd!!!"

The look on the guy's face (Through the peephole) was priceless as he scuttled away like a frightened crab on the beach.

So, in conclusion p) it seems that what you're looking for is not a protection dog, but a more reliable alert dog.

Any of the protection breeds can certainly be used for that, though I do have my bias with the Shepherds


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> After the second burglary I had a walkthrough in our new house with three armed policemen and believe me (unless you are a military type of trained person) it is not very pleasent to walk the rooms with a loaded gun in your hand. Even the police were stressed and nervous !


One reason why if you do have a weapon in your house, it is never a good idea to go the threat, but to let the threat come to you in a secure area (with your children in that secure area as well).

Not sure if I'm understanding you correctly, but did the police believe there was still an armed threat in your home?

One reason for a K-9 unit in the United States. By chance if it is known that there is a possibility of an armed intruder whose wearabouts are unknown in a structure (such as a building or house) and it the structure is "cleared" of innocent civilians, the dog is sent in to find the wearabouts of the intruder.



> Also you face a very big problem if your gun is stolen and used to shoot someone.


One of many reasons to invest in a good safe.



> I would prefer being burglarized/robbed to getting in a gunfight in my house.


If you're in a secure area and the burglar knows you are armed, chances are the burglar wants nothing to do with a gun fight and will leave (becuase they don't have a gun). By chance if they (the burglar) are armed and want to stay for a gun fight, you have much bigger problems if you aren't armed.



> I am not going to get a protection dog specifically trained to attack intruders.


Glad to hear that. People make the same mistake with firearms.



> And shooting a gun inside of a house can be a bad idea, you can run the risk of shooting your own child sleeping in another room. If I had to choose between accidentally shooting my toddler and getting robbed, I'll take getting robbed. Even if it means waking up to the screams of my SO. Also depending on how close your home is to neighbors, you run the risk of shooting other people.


One reason to actually have a plan in place at your home if you do have a firearm.



> And turn on your alarm system.


Common sense isn't it? Kind of like buying a car and not putting gas in it and complaining that it does't work, so you want to buy something else to get around town.



> Seriously, guns are not such a good idea: to be effective, they have to be easily accessible in case of a break-in. The OP said he has a child... easily accessible weapon + young child = recipe for disaster.


Technology is a wonderful thing. There are numerous different type of gun safes that can store one gun up to numerous amounts. You can usually access the gun within seconds if need be (as long as you place the "safe" near you).



> I have a browning High power


Please, it's a P35 Seriously, one my most favorite sidearms and extremely accurate. With everyone going to plastic frames and high cap mags, it's a "classic" design that has also stood the test of time.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

kumir said:


> We both had alarms on both occasions but did not use them. On first occasion I lived there more than 12 years with no incidences so...I was a fool. On the second one, we had just bought the house and getting the alarm guy was on our to do list. Still a fool for not fixing the alarm the very first thing.


I very much suggest using them next time. 



> These events took place in eastern and western Europe, both in gated secure communities and in these countries thieves normally do not carry guns, as gun would mean many more years in jail. Also I was warned not to carry a gun as a thief may panic and use his gun if he thinks I have one.* If he has one but I don't I will be robbed but he would not shoot m*e. Also here it is a crime to kill a thief even inside your home as long as he is outside your bedroom.


Normally, I'm sure there are some which are not afraid of prison. Why take the chance.

If he thinks you have one he will use his? The point is not to give him an opportunity to harm you. 

Bold = you give people too much credit. 

From what I read he was inside your room with your family there. That sucks there is such a stupid law, that it is a crime to kill him anywhere else in the house, I could understand you not wanting to do that. Though no one said kill him (at least not me). 

The only type of dogs I can recommend are not for your average or novice owners, such as Caucasian Ovcharka or Fila. I also couldn't see the point if you are not willing to back your dog up. Yes dogs can and have defended on their own (I personally know of it as well), but it depends on the individual they come up against. Risking your dogs life or well being (I also don't know the laws there, here you can be sued/get into legal trouble if your dog bites someone depending on location) without being there as a team is not right in my mind. 

The extra responsibility will be the fact that they are somewhat like a personal defense weapon. There is always the risk they will go off on the wrong person, BUT if properly bred and trained this shouldn't be an issue. The problem is that many are not properly trained or not trained at all. They are aggressive without discernment as it is what people feel safe with and they don't want to pay for a well trained dog or have the dog trained. 

I also don't see how one can prefer a lawsuit, if the dog is protecting against a real intruder fine. What if it is someone innocent that gets hurt? It is worth it? You should take time to research/talk to trainers before you make the decision and know how to handle the breed you pick as well.



kumir said:


> After the second burglary I had a walkthrough in our new house with three armed policemen and believe me (unless you are a military type of trained person) it is not very pleasent to walk the rooms with a loaded gun in your hand. Even the police were stressed and nervous !


It never bothers me or stresses me out. I don't understand. What was the issue these police had. I'm not a military type of trained person either.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This is not a forum of security experts and, even if we were, it's likely our situations here are very different from your situation there.

When you get right down to it, most of us aren't even dog experts - just a bunch of 'enthusiests' peppered with a handful of true canine professionals. The rest of us have opinions.

Ultimately, when it comes to home security and most other things, you will have to find your own level of confidence and comfort. Personally, I would not be comfortable with an attack-trained dog in the house. That's not a reflection of my lack of confidence in the dog, but rather in my own ability to handle it.

What works for me is an early warning system that is an alert, formidable but mostly friendly dog (living in the house) with a hell-hound bark. Frankly, though the bark is less intimidating, Zeke the miniature schnauzer also serves the the function very well.

From there, the cell phone with the police a few blocks away and the afore-mentioned 9mm in case they don't get here fast-enough round out my own security system.

I don't ever expect a home invasion. In the history of the small town I live in, there has never been one. But, then, I didn't expect a turkey vulture to come crashing into my windshield in West Texas, either, so I think it makes sense to have a plan for those worst-case scenarios.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Yikes!  I’m actually kind of embarrassed right now on behalf of my fellow Americans. You guys just pretty much fulfilled a ton of negative stereotypes about us in the international community.

You guys might want to practice a little self-awareness. Kumir made it clear by his second post that he’s not living in the US. As you may or may not know, the US is one of only a handful of countries in the world (along with some areas of Latin America) where civilians make it a common practice to keep lethal weapons in their homes.

For people living in other parts of the world, not only is the suggestion to buy a gun impractical (along with the technical talk and the lists of gun models and calibers ), it’s also likely to make you look like a nutter. Same goes for some American readers, honestly. I’m kind of appalled at how so many people harp on about guns, ignoring the posters location and qualms. It seems irrational.

Regarding this one quote:


Spicy1_VV said:


> It never bothers me or stresses me out [to hold a loaded gun]. I don't understand. What was the issue these police had. I'm not a military type of trained person either.


The OP is actually _normal_. I think for most of the world, holding a loaded gun is not a natural, pleasant experience. People who are comfortable with guns, or enjoy them, are in the minority.

For the record, for all the non-Americans reading this, not all of us are gun-loving or trigger-happy people. There are plenty of us who would be happy if they never had to see or touch a gun in their life.

To Kumir:

I think by your last post you are on the right track. One important thing to keep in mind is that dogs are more effective at alerting their owners if they are inside the house. If you were to clean your lab and keep him inside, like NRB suggested, he might behave differently with regard to intruders. I think he’d be more likely to bark and alert you to their presence. The same goes for any future dog you get, of whatever breed you choose.

Another suggestion is to get a home security specialist – one who isn’t just going to try to sell you on their product – come to your house to evaluate its security. My parents did this. They can go around and look for weak points, and come up with solutions to make it more impregnable. I also think it would be worth the effort to spend some time researching good alarm systems, so you can get the very best. And then turn it on!

Ultimately, like other people are saying, you don’t want a dog who will attack intruders. There are just too many things that can go wrong. You want a dog who will reliably alert you if there is an intruder. But it seems like you get that by now.

I just felt compelled to post, to balance out the gun stuff.


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> For people living in other parts of the world, not only is the suggestion to buy a gun impractical (along with the technical talk and the lists of gun models and calibers ), it’s also likely to make you look like a nutter. Same goes for some American readers, honestly. I’m kind of appalled at how so many people harp on about guns, ignoring the posters location and qualms. It seems irrational.


Do yourself a favor and take your own advice and READ.

The OP is from Europe.

Heck, Chicago, DC and some other parts of the U.S have more anti gun legislation than in some parts of Europe (England excluded).

There is however a cultural difference as far as owning a firearm in Europe compared to the U.S (and the same could be said for drinking alcohol).



> The OP is actually normal. I think for most of the world, holding a loaded gun is not a natural, pleasant experience. People who are comfortable with guns, or enjoy them, are in the minority.


The EXACT same thing could be said for those who own Bully breeds. Ever wonder why people want bully breeds outlawed and legislation is being passed to outlaw speciffic breeds? Because those who own them are in the minority.



> the US is one of only a handful of countries in the world (along with some areas of Latin America) where civilians make it a common practice to keep lethal weapons in their homes.


Don't travel much do you? (and Canada doesn't count).


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

canteloupe said:


> Yikes!  I’m actually kind of embarrassed right now on behalf of my fellow Americans. You guys just pretty much fulfilled a ton of negative stereotypes about us in the international community.
> 
> You guys might want to practice a little self-awareness. Kumir made it clear by his second post that he’s not living in the US. As you may or may not know, the US is one of only a handful of countries in the world (along with some areas of Latin America) where civilians make it a common practice to keep lethal weapons in their homes.
> 
> ...


Not sure why you would be embarrassed. Lots of countries citizens have freedom to own and carry firearms. And use them for protection. 

In any case the freedom to own firearms is one of the reasons America is great. We are truly free.


As for the OP's question.

A trained protection dog is a BIG responsibility. It takes a big committment.

I think you would be better off with the alarm and a couple of good alarm dogs with a naturally protective nature. 

Many of the dogs in the working and herding groups fill this role. 
An obedience trained, well socialized Rottwieler, GSD, Bel Mal, Bouvier, Giant Schnauzer, etc etc etc. can be a very formidable friend in a home invasion situation.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Don't make it personal.



.308 said:


> Do yourself a favor and take your own advice and READ.
> 
> The OP is from Europe.
> 
> Heck, Chicago, DC and some other parts of the U.S have more anti gun legislation than in some parts of Europe (England excluded).


Wrong. Europe has much tighter gun laws than most of America. While there are some American cities with stricter gun laws, most of America remains fairly wide open.

Admonishments from you to "READ" are just going to make you look silly.



> The EXACT same thing could be said for those who own Bully breeds. Ever wonder why people want bully breeds outlawed and legislation is being passed to outlaw speciffic breeds? Because those who own them are in the minority.


No. Having a dog you love in your life, bully or no, is an experience that we all enjoy. It is a universal part of human nature to form close bonds with members of other species. _That _is natural. Whereas, as I stated earlier, feeling comfortable or enjoying holding a loaded gun is less so.



> Don't travel much do you? (and Canada doesn't count).


Heh, you're going to lose all credibility if you go down this route. Other than good old Canada, I've been to 42 American states, half of Europe (France, England, Scotland, Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Spain, Italy, and Ukraine), Japan, South Korea, Costa Rica, Mexico, and Guatamala. Yeah. My parents like to travel. And I have family in France.



JohnnyBandit said:


> In any case the freedom to own firearms is one of the reasons America is great. We are truly free.


And that's fine that you think that. I just wanted to make sure the OP and other people reading this know that not all Americans feel that way.


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## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

> Probably we will get a GSD


I sense impending disaster. A GSD in a house with a baby with a wife who is (rightfully) freaked out about intruders and a lab outside who cannot come in because he is dirty? Get a gun? What am I missing in this thread?

Clean up the lab when he's dirty and let him inside. If he doesn't bark when people approach the house, *train him to do so*. *Get a trainer to help you*. You could also change your alarm system for one that only alerts when a window or door is opened vs a motion sensoring type.

The thought of you getting a GSD scares me. You need to do a HUGE AMOUNT OF RESEARCH and maybe even have a friend who owns one bring it over for a long visit (not just a quickie visit where the dog is on its guard and behaving well with its owner in new surroundings). You HAVE a dog which can be trained to alert at the sight/sound of intruders. *And you don't want to use this current member of your family because he will be dirty inside your house?* Sorry, but how lazy and thoughtless toward the dog is that?????? Buy some towels and wipes to clean it off. It doesn't need a bath every day.

Get a baseball bat and keep it by the bed if you feel a need for physical protection. I am not trying to be provocative, but a nervous man and woman + gun + baby + noise or otherwise scary thing could spell disaster. 

Do you have 911 or 991? Barking dog + alarm going off + screaming wife/husband + 911 call and sirens on the way should work.

I truly feel for your family. I can't imagine how scary it would be to have dealt with intruders like that. But I haven't had intruders, nor am I afraid of them because my dog barks at unusual noises. If I was an intruder I would pick another house without a barking dog.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)




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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

In all seriousness the best way to protect your home and family is to make it less attractive to thieves. 

Lighting, secure doors, window bars, alarm systems, noisy dogs, etc all play a role in that. 

Home invasions and break in of occupied dwellings can be unnerving. A bunch of folks mentioned firearms. Which in some locations is a viable option. And in some, including the OP's location it is a much less viable option. Interestingly enough... Almost universally occupied home invasions are more common in places with restrictive gun laws. In well armed localities they are rare. Sometimes almost unheard of. Switzerland for example. The government issues a military rifle to every male citizen over 18 for the Militia. So virtually every home is armed. 


In any case, I would focus on securing my windows, doors, making sure my property is well lit, have a good monitored alarm system and a noisy dog or two.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

As I have learned (and actually lamented on other threads) any discussion of home security is going to include opinions about dogs, guns, alarms, lighting, locks and other factors.

Each of us will utilize whatever combination we're comfortable with, but there's no reason to be embarrassed for anyone with a different comfort level.

Personally, I have a much greater issue with a dog used for anything other than an early alert. Unlike a gun, a dog is a living, breathing thing that can't be locked away when you don't need it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> A GSD in a house with a baby with a wife who is (rightfully) freaked out about intruders and a lab outside who cannot come in because he is dirty?


I just have to ask...what is up with the comment about the GSD in the house with the baby?

And I did not advocate a gun btw....I did suggest what they could do if they wanted another dog


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

RonE said:


> Personally, I have a much greater issue with a dog used for anything other than an early alert. Unlike a gun, a dog is a living, breathing thing that can't be locked away when you don't need it.


+1,000! I would never let Bella be put in danger by going after a possilby armed person - be it a gun or a baseball bat. 

There is no way anyone can get into (or near) my apartment without Bella letting me know - if the burglar/thief/rapist etc... still breaks in, Bella will be with me and the next thing the intruder will hear is my 9mm Sig being chambered (although I'm more accurate w/the .45).

I do not recommend ANYONE going out willy nilly and buying a gun. Take some good courses first and keep yourself, your family AND your dog(s) safe!


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> Wrong. Europe has much tighter gun laws than most of America. While there are some American cities with stricter gun laws, most of America remains fairly wide open.


And what are the differences between most European laws and U.S laws pertaining to rifles and handguns?

Yes, please read, even your own link. Some European countries do have stricter requirements, but as I mentioned previously, gun ownership and why you own a gun comes down to a cultural difference, nothing more in some countries.



> Heh, you're going to lose all credibility if you go down this route. Other than good old Canada, I've been to 42 American states, half of Europe (France, England, Scotland, Germany, Poland, Switzerland, Spain, Italy, and Ukraine), Japan, South Korea, Costa Rica, Mexico, and Guatamala. Yeah. My parents like to travel. And I have family in France.


Not hardly. I traveled both for enjoyment AND for the protection of the liberties that you may take for granted. Been in some of those countries you've mentioned, and I knew of men who owned firearms in those countries.



> My parents like to travel. And I have family in France


Yeah, my parents liked to travel as well. Dad spent over 25 years in the military, one reason why I realized what it meant to want to protect and serve your country.

Having family in France explains everything. Luckily my family is from Eastern Europe



> No. Having a dog you love in your life, bully or no, is an experience that we all enjoy. It is a universal part of human nature to form close bonds with members of other species. That is natural. Whereas, as I stated earlier, feeling comfortable or enjoying holding a loaded gun is less so.


WRONG. Some irresponsible people own bully breeds just as some irresponsible people own firearms. Those people who are irresponsible end up making the newspaper and give the responsible people a bad rap.

Just as I know people who would argue for the banishment of guns because innocent people get killed by guns, people argue the banishment of bully breeds because innocent people get killed by those breed of dogs.



> Personally, I have a much greater issue with a dog used for anything other than an early alert. Unlike a gun, a dog is a living, breathing thing that can't be locked away when you don't need it.


Agree 110%

Personally, don't want a firearm to protect yourself, fine. However, don't get another living breathing animal to protect you and not want to put your butt on the line to do the same for the animal.



> Bella will be with me and the next thing the intruder will hear is my 9mm Sig being chambered (although I'm more accurate w/the .45).


.45 is always carried in condition 1

A firearm is treated as if its always loaded, and thus, it is.



> I do not recommend ANYONE going out willy nilly and buying a gun. Take some good courses first and keep yourself, your family AND your dog(s) safe!


Agree 110%.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

Before you get a GSD, please research the breed. A GSD will NOT be content to just sit around, waiting for an intruder to come. They tend to be high drive dogs, requiring a lot of exercise and perhaps a specific job to do (tracking, agility, etc.). 

Do not be concerned with your lab "spoiling" a new dog. A lab certainly cannot convince another dog to lose it's instincts.

Regarding bathing your dog, it is not a good idea to use shampoo every time, but you certainly can rinse him off and towel him dry to bring him in the house. When you do use shampoo, an oatmeal shampoo mixed with some 100% neem oil can help to not dry out the coat or cause itchiness.

I own a GSD and a Rottweiler. They do a very good job of alerting me when I have guests (or when they think something is amiss). They are very intimidating sounding. They LOOK very intimidating. I take comfort in that fact, particularly when my husband and brother are not home. We live pretty far out in the country.

I also feel like my dogs would indeed protect me if necessary. However, if confronting someone with a gun, I would MUCH rather them run and hide in the other room. No dog is a match for a bullet.

Since you said criminals carrying guns is not as common in your country, a good alert dog might be a good idea... but be prepared to treat him like a family member, including proper socialization, play time, training, and exercise, rather than like a robotic alarm system.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> In all seriousness the best way to protect your home and family is to make it less attractive to thieves.
> 
> Lighting, secure doors, window bars, alarm systems, noisy dogs, etc all play a role in that.


I totally agree.



> Home invasions and break in of occupied dwellings can be unnerving. A bunch of folks mentioned firearms. Which in some locations is a viable option. And in some, including the OP's location it is a much less viable option. Interestingly enough... Almost universally occupied home invasions are more common in places with restrictive gun laws. In well armed localities they are rare. Sometimes almost unheard of. Switzerland for example. The government issues a military rifle to every male citizen over 18 for the Militia. So virtually every home is armed.


First of all, switzerland's gun situation is totally unique in europe, so it can't be generalized to other countries. Second, men in the militia are only required to keep their guns until age thirty, when they're finished serving. Not "virtually every home" has a man between ages 18 to 30, in the militia, with a gun. The swiss military only has about 200,000 people in service, including reserves! The NRA and gun lobbyists everywhere love to point to Switzerland to say, "See? Guns don't kill people, because they have plenty of guns and a low murder rate." But be realistic! That's like finding the one border collie in a hundred that likes to sleep all day, and using that dog as evidence that all BC's like to sleep all day. The bottom line: if you're going to use other countries to support your arguments, you have to use _all_ of them. You can't just pick and choose the one in a thousand that fits your argument.

Anyway, I don't want to debate gun laws here, so I'm going to try not to post again on this vein, even if someone says something totally inaccurate. I think it's weird how often guns come up on this forum. And always from pro-gun people.



> In any case, I would focus on securing my windows, doors, making sure my property is well lit, have a good monitored alarm system and a noisy dog or two.


I agree.



Xeph said:


> And I did not advocate a gun btw....I did suggest what they could do if they wanted another dog


Oh, I know. I should have said that not everyone advocated buying a gun. Just a lot of people.



.308 said:


> Having family in France explains everything. Luckily my family is from Eastern Europe


Just so you don't go away from this thinking worse of the French exclusively, my ancestry is English, Scottish, French, and German. The French relatives are simply the only ones that we know.



> WRONG. Some irresponsible people own bully breeds just as some irresponsible people own firearms. Those people who are irresponsible end up making the newspaper and give the responsible people a bad rap.
> 
> Just as I know people who would argue for the banishment of guns because innocent people get killed by guns, people argue the banishment of bully breeds because innocent people get killed by those breed of dogs.


Comparing pits and other breeds to firearms really, really bothers me. But I'm going to save it for another thread. If I don't make it now, I'll make it in the near future.


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> Comparing pits and other breeds to firearms really, really bothers me. But I'm going to save it for another thread. If I don't make it now, I'll make it in the near future.


Don't know why it bothers you. As mentioned, both animal and guns get a bad reputation from irresponsible ownership.



> even if someone says something totally inaccurate.


Not sure what is inaccurate. The OP did not mention that it was illegal to own a firearm where he/she was at. The OP however did mention that there was a cultural difference in firearm ownership, which I agree with.

However, you did show your ignorance when you mentioned



> For the record, for all the non-Americans reading this, not all of us are gun-loving or trigger-happy people. There are plenty of us who would be happy if they never had to see or touch a gun in their life.


Never considered myself gun loving, even a time in my life when I swore off guns. Not sure why you even used the phrase "trigger happy people". Gun is a tool, nothing more. 



> Just so you don't go away from this thinking worse of the French exclusively, my ancestry is English, Scottish, French, and German. The French relatives are simply the only ones that we know.


Nah, don't worry, just never fond of the French goverment, not all of it's people. Guess I'm lucky enough that everyone on my side came over off the boat after 1900 so I know where everyone is at.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Seriously? Are you serious?



canteloupe said:


> The OP is actually _normal_. I think for most of the world, holding a loaded gun is not a natural, pleasant experience. People who are comfortable with guns, or enjoy them, are in the minority.


Yes so people who are comfortable with guns are abnormal.  That is what you are saying after all if it is normal to find it nerve racking. 

What I thought was very NOT normal is what the OP said about it being ok if you have military training and even the police were freaked out (the armed police which came to his home). I couldn't quite follow what was written but if I read that right I find it disturbing and scary that it is unpleasant for even the police to hold loaded firearms. 

I find nothing abnormal or odd about being comfortable with a firearm. Then again I always find it odd to have irrational fears or being uncomfortable about objects. Whether that is guns, snakes, mice, pit bulls, lightning, ect. 

I agree that people who enjoy shooting are more likely in the minority. Nothing wrong with that. Not everyone should probably own a gun or really feel they need one. Many who have one just in case might not actually enjoy shooting either but I'd hope they are not freaked out because that can really make them unreliable in handling the gun. 



> For the record, for all the non-Americans reading this, not all of us are gun-loving or trigger-happy people. There are plenty of us who would be happy if they never had to see or touch a gun in their life.


LOL I don't know where you are coming from in your post at all. 

Who here is gun loving and trigger happy. You did quote me as I recommended a gun (along with alarm system and two great breeds of dogs for guard work). 

I do not love guns, certainly not any more than any other weapon or object. Just as I don't love knifes or metal pipes. Nor do I love desks, tvs or automobiles. A gun is a tool that has many uses whether that is for good or bad and sometimes yes enjoyment (some people shoot as recreation). 

Trigger happy  Yes one (possibly) using a gun to defend their home/family once in a lifetime (if ever) makes them trigger happy. Why they are just going around shooting anyone that spooks them or walks buy. Wanting to protect ones family with the use of a firearm is far, far from trigger happy. Nor does it mean they are gun loving at all just because they are not uncomfortable. 

And the OP *normal*. Not at all in a certain respects. Most people I've ever known/spoke with want a dog as a pet. Not as a weapon. People who want a dog for a weapon are not the average owner and are in the minority. Whether they want a dog with the natural instinct like a Fila who is very likely to guard/protect or they are actually willing to train the dog and themselves for a reliable controlled protection/guard dog it is not the most common reason to get a dog. A dog can do a lot more damage than many firearms, a person can end up with significant and horrific injuries as well as emotional scars from being mauled by a dog. A firearm is easier to control and requires little maintenance. A protection dog is a big responsibility and requires more maintenance not to mention is a bigger expense. 

If a gun is not right for the OP that is fine by me. I made this along with other suggestions, I'm not pushing them to get a gun.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

canteloupe said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was not the one that brought up guns in this thread. I responded to your statements in which you felt some need to make a national apology and paint gun owning Amerlicans as gun toting nuts. Your exact statement was...._For the record, for all the non-Americans reading this, not all of us are gun-loving or trigger-happy people._

Then you got into a conversation with .308 about Europe. Neither of your statements were really correct. Actually .308's were much closer than yours. You used an example listing of a few countries in Europe showing that Europe has much tighter gun controls than the US.... Yes some of Europe does. I used Switzerland. You attempted to twist that. But fact is about 25 to 30 percent of Adult citizens of Switzerland own firearms. Which pretty much mirrors the stats for the US.... 

And Switzerland is not the only example. Austria and some of Eastern Europe have reasonable gun laws. Overall it varies just as it does in the US.... Another comparison between Europe and the US is that the highest crime rates occur in the places with the strictest gun laws. With the Exception of Miami which is a bit of an oxymoron most of the places that have strict firearm laws, have high crime rates. 
Fact is relaxed firearm laws among citizens is a crime deterent. 
I would be more than happy to have a in depth discussion on firearms laws and their relationship to crime rates but this is not the place.


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## kumir (Nov 13, 2009)

Some clarifications here :

A bit cultural and a bit linguistic as English is not my native language.

1. I am not living in a war zone or in a high crime area. The thieves that operate in the two countries our homes were burglarized do not carry out violent attacks. They do not break in and shoot people. They are just thieves, some are very skilled and some so so. The legal systems brings much harsher sentences if a thief is armed even with a knife so they do not carry guns and those who choose to do so would probably rob a bank or do something big rather than visit us and steal a couple of cameras and watches.

2. So I do not plan to risk a dog's life by putting him against bloodthirsty criminals. We love dogs and if my dog were to be hurt I would remember it all my life. A dog is meant to discourage an intruder, that's it. If someone comes into our garden at 3:30 AM wearing all black and our dog bites him...then so be it. I am not going to cry for him !

3. We use alarms now...extensively. It's just we were so stressed, even traumatized that an alarm is not enough. I want more, just do not feel safe even with alarms. I want the best I can get.

4. I do not want guns in my house. This is not an anti-American feeling/statement. As I said, the gun culture is different here. It is different as soccer is to (American) football so please do not judge it.

5. I see no reason why a German Shepherd will not do fine. I mean a regular dog, not a protection/guard/attack dog who will stay in the garden with our Lab. I was warned not to get a protection dog and I agree.

6. Our Lab is just fine in the garden, he is happy and healthy with no behavioral problems because he is certain to get his love and support and exercise every single day. 

7. I probably miscommunicated on this issue because of my English. I was trying to say that I do not trust alarms 100%. We have a sophisticated alarm system but in my view a dog is more important. Have the alarm, have the doggy !


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

To address something someone else mentioned earlier on this thread.

Your lab, its nature and personality, would not take away anything from a dog that was higher drive and more naturally protective. 

I have an ACD and a Lab. The ACD is a hard charging fire eater. Very HIGH drive, lots of protective instinct. We had the Lab when I got the ACD. The ACD was a puppy and the Lab was a five year old adult. None of the Labs personality rubbed off on the ACD. 

If anything...... Some of the ACD has rubbed off on the Lab. When my wife and I started dating, she had the Lab and I had a different ACD(RIB Bandit) Bandit was similar in drive and nature to my current ACD, Merlin. 

Buc the Lab was a very happy go lucky dog. Never seeming to be observant or caring what was going on around the house. etc. 
After my wife and I moved in together, Buc seemed to take on a bit of a harder edge. He still carries that harder edge. VERY low key in comparison to an ACD but much harder than most Labs you see. I have no scientific proof but I think it is because he has spent most of his life with ACDs.


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## kumir (Nov 13, 2009)

didee said:


> But I haven't had intruders, nor am I afraid of them because my dog barks at unusual noises. If I was an intruder I would pick another house without a barking dog.


We were so sure about ourselves too 

I hope you will never come across a professional thief. There are thieves who spend all their time focusing on their job and training themselves and using technology.

They can find not one but ten ways to silence your dog.

Most of those people who claim that they will shoot a thief first need to understand that it is more likely to be 2 or even 3 thieves visiting them. They will also experience a minimum 10 sec shock or confusion at 4AM as they suddenly wake up to a guy in their bedroom. It took several seconds in my case to understand that it was not a nightmare but reality. On top of this, one has to go out of bed, turn the light on, reassess the situation (where are you standing, where are you facing, who is where) and only that one can get the gun and then start to shoot.

Under these conditions what makes them believe that they will have an advantage over a thief or thieves ? This is different from watching Jack Bauer.

All this stuff assuming the thief does not spray you. If he does, then you are at his mercy. He can literally put a diaper on you.

I would advise you and others to be cautious against thieves. Do not assume that all thieves are hillbillies attacking the main door with iron bars. Do not let your dogs or alarm or guns or whatever give you an exaggerated, falsified sense of security.

We had sliding doors that I thought were extra safe as they had a very unusual locking mechanism. Now I can unlock and open them with my bare hands because started to think like a thief to protect myself. It takes less then 10 secs to open most garage doors. I saw a very expensive high security lock being dismantled in under 30 secs.

We lived under an illusion before. Most locked doors will protect you against idiots, not thieves. 

I am just trying my best by getting a protective dog next to an alarm system. 

A dog in the house is very important and might even deter a real pro.

note : I will not keep the Lab outside and put the GSD inside



JohnnyBandit said:


> We had the Lab when I got the ACD. The ACD was a puppy and the Lab was a five year old adult. None of the Labs personality rubbed off on the ACD.
> 
> If anything...... Some of the ACD has rubbed off on the Lab.


This is very good to know !


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> 4. I do not want guns in my house. This is not an anti-American feeling/statement. As I said, the gun culture is different here. It is different as soccer is to (American) football so please do not judge it.


For the record, just because you don't want guns in your house, I wouldn't associate that with being anti-American

I can also understand why some people in this world are anti-American.

By the same token, please don't consider my suggestions on owning a firearm as a "gun loving trigger happy American"



> Most of those people who claim that they will shoot a thief first need to understand that it is more likely to be 2 or even 3 thieves visiting them. They will also experience a minimum 10 sec shock or confusion at 4AM as they suddenly wake up to a guy in their bedroom. It took several seconds in my case to understand that it was not a nightmare but reality. On top of this, one has to go out of bed, turn the light on, reassess the situation (where are you standing, where are you facing, who is where) and only that one can get the gun and then start to shoot.


Currently, we have seven dogs. You couldn't get near our house at night or early morning without us knowing it (when one dog "goes off" they all go), and that's without any type of alarm system. By the same token, if you were on the outside coming near our house and heard the dogs start barking, you would think we had our own little war zone going on inside and I highly doubt that you would even think about trying to break in, even if we were not home

Now, if some guys were to make it to the house and the dogs didn't notice, they would still have the alarm system to deal with (more than a couple of interesting notes). Make it past the alarm and inside, then the dogs, then you have me to deal with. More than a couple of guys coming then the wife gets the shotgun and I go for the more interesting guns.

Couple of buddies who are in law enforcement who come over to shoot on more than on occasion have told me that they would feel sorry for anyone who tried to break into my home. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I do take pride in that.

Not sure how rich you are, but there is nothing in my home of value for anyone to go through the trouble to break into my home.



> I probably miscommunicated on this issue because of my English.


I can assure you, your English is much better than myself trying to communicate in your native language.

Ever get to America, look me up, the doors always open to those who mean me no harm.


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## zoeagility15 (Nov 15, 2009)

Ok, there is nothing wrong with having a gun if you are responsible with storage and how you use it. There are gun safety courses out there and safes for putting guns in where they are out of the reach of people other than the guns owner. And if the lab was in the house it probably would bark.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't think a yard dog is going to be much of a turn off for someone wishing to break in. They'll just use another route that doesn't lead to a dog to get into the house if they're that determined. A dog in the house, regardless of breed, is the biggest deterrant. Someone who is going to break in wants the least amount of hassle possible..


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## didee (Oct 18, 2009)

I probably ought to just bite my lip, but it irks me when I read that someone has a dog which they leave outside. Then in this case, the OP wants another one for inside for protection. Maybe I misunderstood, but I read that the lab is a "window sticker" who gets 5 minutes of smooches a day. He can't come in (and thus be the watchdog by being trained to bark) because he is dirty.

I feel very strongly that if you are going to commit to take an animal into your family (a dog), it ought to be allowed in the house with its family.

Yes a thief can get anyone, but is more likely to kill a an outside dog by giving it poisoned food. Nomatter what precautions you take, there will always be some risk. But a barking dog who lives inside your house is a very good protection device. Forget biting the attacker, I am talking about being loud enough to deter the thief from pursuing your home due to the ruckus.

If I misunderstood, sorry. But getting another dog instead of toweling off and letting your current dog inside (the window sticker dog who sits and stares in wanting to be with you) seems the most logical and KINDEST solution. And he will want to protect you, his family. If you don't want to modify your alarm system to the non-motion kind, then fine. 

I personally hate guns and am not a proponent of their use. But I understand that others have different opionions and have no interest in debating that part of this issue.

One more point: as another person posted, if you get a GSD, you should know what you are getting into. These are highly active and driven dogs who need action and lots of it or they can become bored and destructive. And they're highly intelligent, so the "action" doesn't mean running around the garden on its own. They need interaction and mental stimulation with you and that is a very big time commitment. Whoever said it was dead on: a GSD isn't going to sit around waiting for burglars; it's going to get busy do something! If you're a novice you may be treading into some territory that you may not be able to handle. Please believe this and talk to others.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

.308 said:


> Currently, we have seven dogs. You couldn't get near our house at night or early morning without us knowing it (when one dog "goes off" they all go), and that's without any type of alarm system. By the same token, if you were on the outside coming near our house and heard the dogs start barking, you would think we had our own little war zone going on inside and I highly doubt that you would even think about trying to break in, even if we were not home
> 
> Now, if some guys were to make it to the house and the dogs didn't notice, they would still have the alarm system to deal with (more than a couple of interesting notes). Make it past the alarm and inside, then the dogs, then you have me to deal with. More than a couple of guys coming then the wife gets the shotgun and I go for the more interesting guns.


EXACTLY

I don't think it is a false sense of security, I'm realistic about it. 

I've got a dog outside that knows things very quickly are amiss and like yours once one barks they all do. That is a lot of hell raising. If one wishes to shoot that dog, climb the fence (I've considered razor wire), break in the door (alarm will go off) and shoot that dog I know we'd both be plenty awake and ready for action by that point (I've a dog in the room too). If they don't get bit likely they will be shot or possibly held at gun point it'd depend on the situation. If they do get bit it is still the same situation. 

Do I think it impossible for someone to get to me? No. I also have to consider being harmed or killed outside my home. Same for other people. What about when they go to work, school, the store, ect. They could be killed by surprise, not ever expecting it. Your home you have the most control over to make it safe as possible for your family. To have deterrents and reasons why someone would pick another home. If they wish to try you can make it as hard as possible for them.



didee said:


> I probably ouught to just bite my lip, by it irks me incredibly when I read that someone has a dog which they leave outside. Then in this case, the OP wants another one for inside for protection. Maybe I misunderstood, but I read that the lab is a "window sticker" who gets 5 minutes of smooches a day. He can't come in (and thus be the watchdog by being trained to bark) because he is dirty.
> 
> I am sorry, but I feel very strongly that if you are going to commit to take an animal into your family (a dog), it ought to be allowed in the house with its family.
> 
> ...


Different stokes for different folks.

Some people have dogs for different purposes. I need LGD so yes that means staying OUTSIDE. It irks me when people wish to force their idea onto another as if it is the only way.

Poison is not a good "weapon" for choice for a thief against a dog. Unless they are willing to wait sometime. I find that more common among dog haters or those who become annoyed by a barking or aggressive dog. A thief would be more likely to shoot for a quick kill or find another quick manner or perhaps enter with the dog if it is friendly and go about their business.



grab said:


> I don't think a yard dog is going to be much of a turn off for someone wishing to break in. They'll just use another route that doesn't lead to a dog to get into the house if they're that determined. A dog in the house, regardless of breed, is the biggest deterrant. Someone who is going to break in wants the least amount of hassle possible..


If the dog is fenced in around the home then they can't really find another route. Though multiple dogs are the best whether they are in/out or a combination of both. 

In some countries without as much liability issue as in the US it is common to see homes with guard dogs and most the time the thieves will pick another target. The homes without the fence and dogs, because of the risk of being attacked.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I can't speak for whatever country the OP is in, but here in America, it is extremely rare for burglars to break into an occupied house in a group. It's just extremely rare. You don't know if the guy is armed or not, you don't know if there's a dog in there, you don't know if you're going to run into an unarmed, 120 lb weakling or a heavily armed, former linebacker. You don't know. Plus, if you break into an occupied house, prosecutors can try that (in some cases) as a home invasion. 

The vast majority of burglaries happen during the day here in the States. No one is home during the day in the middle of the week. You knock on a door loudly. If someone answers, you pretend to be a salesperson or ask for someone you know doesn't live there and apologize for having the wrong house. If someone doesn't answer, you kick the door, run in, grab whatever you can and get out. This is how the vast majority of burglaries are carried out. 

Alarm systems I have found to be next to completely useless. The alarm goes off, the alarm company gets the signal, they call you, you don't answer or you give the incorrect code, the alarm company calls the police and the police send someone out. Usually the cops take their time because so many alarm calls are false. It can be 3-4 minutes before the cops even get called. Even if they respond immediately, it can take 3-4 minutes for them to drive to your house. So the thief gets 6-8 minutes to grab what he can and leave. That's a lot of time under the best of circumstances.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

didee said:


> ...in this case, the OP wants another one for inside for protection. Maybe I misunderstood, but I read that the lab is a "window sticker" who gets 5 minutes of smooches a day. He can't come in (and thus be the watchdog by being trained to bark) because he is dirty.


I agree. If the Lab is a "window sticker" then he would obviously rather be inside.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

In reading some comments on here, I look at the dog/owner relationship a little different than some other folks. 

While I do not get a dog with the express thought of them protecting me, I do look at the my relationship with my dogs as a partnership. I watch your back and you watch mine type of deal. I will go to great lengths to protect my dogs but my dogs would do the same in return. 

There are probably two reasons for this. One) the types of dogs/temperments I choose and two) history.

I will give detail on reason number two first. 

The summer I turned 16 years old I was helping my grandfather move some cattle around. We were bringing some cattle into a pasture and going to move a bull to another pasture a few miles away. The bull in question was a Santa Gertrudis named Santana. I had shown this bull in the beef cattle show the two previous years at the fair. So I was used to him and he was used to me. He was easy to handle but there were some heifers in season coming in the trailer. So he was a little worked up. Grandaddy asked me to take Santana to a holding pen behind the barn while we unloaded the heifers. He went fine but when I got him into the pen, I turned my back on him (mistake) and he decided to do a Mexican hat dance on me. 

My dogs Catcher, a Catahoula and Laddie, a rough Collie came to my aid and literally saved my life. I came out of the deal with four broken ribs, broken bones in my right hand, dislocated shoulder, broken collar bone, bruised heart and severe concussion. If it doesn't sound like the dogs did a good job of saving me, keep in mind that the dogs were over 100 yards away and completely out of sight when this went down. The bull hit me in the back(breaking the ribs) right off and I lost my wind. I never screamed or yelled for help. The dogs heard or knew something was going down and came and saved my butt. Laddie got a dislocated hip in the deal and walked with a bit of limp the rest of his life. When the dogs got there, I was beat up very badly and curled up the best I could. The bull was still working me over and trying to hook me and roll me over. The dogs got him off me. IF they had not come, I would have probably been killed. I didn't have much left. 


Sometime around 1988, I left for work one morning. Sometime after I left a guy came along and jimmied my front door with a crow bar. I doubt he was counting on Doc being inside. (Doc also a Catahoula and a son of Catcher) I had three other dogs at the time but two were out back in a kennel and one was shut in a spare bedroom. When I got home, I found Doc sitting under the tree in the front yard, my front door open and a crow bar on the walk. And a bad guy in the tree. Luckily he was not armed except for the crowbar which was dropped on the race to the tree. Doc had treed him and held him there all day. (The jackass pee'd on my dog, a couple of different times I think. Of course the guy claimed that the he was walking down the street and the dog chased him up the tree. Only problem was his prints were on the crow bar and my door handle. He also had a record of similar break ins. 

Fast forward to about 2004. A hit and run driver running on foot from the police ended up on my back porch. He was trying to get in through my sliding glass door. Bandit, my ACD (RIP) hit the door so hard I thought it was going to shatter. I grabbed a gun and called 911 but no way Bandit was letting him in. Without getting wordy the account is here on the breeders companions page. http://www.callmefarms.com/companions.php?id=4

So three times in my life my dogs have come to my aid in very real, potentially dangerous situations. I have not had the honor of returning those favors. All I have been able to do is take the best care possible of all my dogs.

Which brings me to reason number one.... I grew up in a farming and ranching family. Our dogs worked with us. I learned at a very early age ( Laddie had been a gift from my father but I picked Catcher out of a litter myself) what to look for in a dog and to know what I wanted. I no longer work my dogs in real life. We play, agility, herding trials, bite work, etc. But I still like the same thing in a dog. I am drawn to high drive, high energy breeds. Within the breeds I like, when looking for a puppy, I want one with a ton of drive, I look for one of the more dominant pups if not the most dominant pup. I look for fire, I want the puppy that runs towards the loud noise rather than away from it. I want a puppy that is onry as a three legged pissant. I want and enjoy the dog that will make many folks want to pull their hair out. 

All that being said, my dogs are not for protection, but the dogs I have chosen in the past have shown they are up to the task. I still choose the same types of dogs so there is no reason to doubt if things go badly my current dog (not my wife's Lab although he might) would step up. Add to that, with the last three dogs I have had, I have made bite work part of the training, they are pretty capable.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

didee said:


> I probably ought to just bite my lip, but it irks me when I read that someone has a dog which they leave outside. Then in this case, the OP wants another one for inside for protection. Maybe I misunderstood, but I read that the lab is a "window sticker" who gets 5 minutes of smooches a day. He can't come in (and thus be the watchdog by being trained to bark) because he is dirty.


The OP has already stated that the lab gets daily exercise/affection:


kumir said:


> 6. Our Lab is just fine in the garden, he is happy and healthy with no behavioral problems because he is certain to get his love and support and exercise every single day.


The OP has also stated that they won't keep the Lab outside if they have the GSD inside, which I interpreted to mean that both dogs would be allowed inside:


kumir said:


> A dog in the house is very important and might even deter a real pro.
> 
> note : I will not keep the Lab outside and put the GSD inside


The OP also stated that the Lab is dirty because he gets to go swimming every day.... definitely a good thing for a Lab.


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## kumir (Nov 13, 2009)

.308 said:


> For the record, just because you don't want guns in your house, I wouldn't associate that with being anti-American
> 
> I can also understand why some people in this world are anti-American.
> 
> By the same token, please don't consider my suggestions on owning a firearm as a "gun loving trigger happy American"


I am not an anti-gun person myself and have no problem when Americans love or hate guns. Just do not feel comfortable myself because in our culture guns are not associated with freedom but danger. I know there are so many responsible American families where guns are associated with positive values like responsibility, attention, discipline and so on. Yet given how sick individuals are out there and how easy it is to get a gun (as far as I know), I tend to be very cautious myself.



.308 said:


> Currently, we have seven dogs. You couldn't get near our house at night or early morning without us knowing it (when one dog "goes off" they all go), and that's without any type of alarm system. By the same token, if you were on the outside coming near our house and heard the dogs start barking, you would think we had our own little war zone going on inside and I highly doubt that you would even think about trying to break in, even if we were not home


You certainly got one hell of a security 



nikelodeon79 said:


> The OP has already stated that the lab gets daily exercise/affection:


Yeah, thanks for mentioning this. 

I wouldn't wish to be lectured on this issue as it is a personal issue. 

Kumir is a very happy dog. He is a window-sticker because it is in his nature and we spoiled him a bit. You know how easy Labs and Goldens get spoilt. Also he was let to come inside during daytime before our baby was born. (We have an infant baby crawling everywhere. Just do not wish to take the risk of our dog bringing in mud that might contain parasites or feces) He is not suffering any way. *He is happy and healthy with no behavioral problems at all*. He accepts and enjoys living outside in the garden.

Because I asked for some specific guard dog advice does not mean I am trying to learn "Doggy 101" stuff. Not only I read a lot about dogs but also he has a pro trainer that I discuss all these things.

He receives 5 minute intense cuddling other than all his exercise and petting and mutual playing and touching him so on. I did not say I only spend 5 mins with him per day.

Dogs need a reason to prove their being. You can not just them them run around. Ours has his reason, passion, religion which is retrieving things. He gets so happy, so focused, so exhilirated that it is literally euphoria for him. If I say he is happy it means he is. I think the garden/house issue might be a personal problem of some persons who can not accept a dog living in the garden. It certainly is not our problem.

It is also better to understand people's situation before making (unfounded) criticisms. Not only we have a baby in our home but our dog is hyper active in terms of energy, a lot more energetic than other dogs as stated by his pro trainer. He is being exercised -heavily- twice per day. Because he does not get tired by walking, I make him run uphill/downhill and then there are the speed runs. Despite all this, he is running around for hours at night time.


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> You certainly got one hell of a security


Funny, you sound just like an American

What's ironic is that the dogs are almost like most of the firearms I own. I didn't get them for protection, but they both work very well in that capacity.

The dogs are more of a deterrent than the firearms IMO because they both alert myself and any possible intruder that they (the dogs) are there. Heck, if someone were to get into the house and we weren't there, there is a good chance that the dogs would lick the intruder to death (except for maybe one or two of them, I'm not sure) 



> (We have an infant baby crawling everywhere. Just do not wish to take the risk of our dog bringing in mud that might contain parasites or feces) He is not suffering any way.


Down the road you may want to consider baby gates. They work wonders for containing dogs as well.



> I am not an anti-gun person myself and have no problem when Americans love or hate guns


I love my dogs, I don't love my guns.



> Just do not feel comfortable myself because in our culture guns are not associated with freedom but danger


And I sincerely think that some Americans get a gun for the sole reason for protection and never really feel comfortable with the firearm. This is a recipe for disaster IMO.


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## strayhare (Nov 8, 2009)

In my house I have a mix breed springer/collie that wasn't a big protection dog. My spouse got a job in the State prison so I got a GSD. I keep her by the bed at night when my house doors are opened my GSD goes off. But I also have a gun on the other side of the bed! My children are on two floors so I would have protect at angles. Thats where the dogs come in.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

A Caucasian Ovcharka is one to lay and wait, unlike the GSD. They should still be walked or given outdoor space but they are not a high energy breed like some others. They are great with their family and protective of them and their home. They've been said to have the stopping power of a .45, so that eliminates the need for a gun....lol The drawback to some would be when they blow their coat but it is not that bad if you brush it out, unlike short haired breeds which get those little needle hairs in everything. 


As for alarms.....True even with an alarm the person can take what they want and get out in time. The alarm is like many dogs a deterrent. If they see you have one they might pick another home. If they don't know you have one, break in and it goes off they may run away. Others will work as fast as they can to get what they want. Having more than one security measure comes into play.


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

A simple trick.

If your car has an alarm system tied into the keys, try sounding the car alarm from your bedroom. Chances are, the alarm will go off. Keep a key/car alarm by the bed. By chance if you know an intruder is in the house and your house alarm hasn't gone off (or you don't have a home alarm system), you can always engage your car alarm. Should make enough of a ruckus to alert someone outside of the house.

My neck of the woods, no one would hear the alarm anyway, and people shoot into the wee hours of the night anyway, so I'm not sure how much noise I'd need to make to get someones attention.

Needless to say, one should always call the local law if given time.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I am not ashamed to admit Spicy that I an terrified of the Caucasian Ovcharka


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

I just want to chime in with what some other people said and add that I also think you'll be more secure with the dogs in the house. Completely regardless of whether you think it's right or wrong for dogs to be kept outside, I think your house will probably be more secure at night if the dog or dogs are kept inside the house. The lab with be more likely to bark, and the whole house will be more secure.

There are measures you can take to keep the house clean, like only allowing the dogs downstairs, and cleaning them each night (baths aren't necessarily needed -- you can just get them wet and towel them off).

I'm not trying to change your values -- I just think it's also a security issue.



kumir said:


> I am not an anti-gun person myself and have no problem when Americans love or hate guns. Just do not feel comfortable myself because in our culture guns are not associated with freedom but danger. I know there are so many responsible American families where guns are associated with positive values like responsibility, attention, discipline and so on.


Just so long as you know that there are plenty of Americans who also associate guns with danger and not freedom!


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

cantaloupe, not sure where you are coming from, but this country would not still be flying the USA flag, if most of the people crawled under there beds when the bad guys are coming.

I also am proud to read comments from those on this forum that are not afraid to own a weapon, if your willing to protect your home you must be the ones that will also defend this nation. 

.308 I especially appreciate your comments, and others, maybe you should use a signature like 9mm, the pacifist will think you are referring to candy.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm a parent

I have dogs in my house
I have guns in my house

Either can be managed with children, if you don't want one but have the other.........dogs can be dirty but like one suggested baby gates. You can also put booties on when the dog goes out and take them off when they come in. 



BobSD said:


> cantaloupe, not sure where you are coming from, but this country would not still be flying the USA flag, if most of the people crawled under there beds when the bad guys are coming.
> 
> I also am proud to read comments from those on this forum that are not afraid to own a weapon, if your willing to protect your home you must be the ones that will also defend this nation.
> 
> .308 I especially appreciate your comments, and others, *maybe you should use a signature like 9mm, the pacifist will think you are referring to candy*.


LOL


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> Just so long as you know that there are plenty of Americans who also associate guns with danger and not freedom!


Why do you think it's important that people know some Americans associate guns with danger? The fact is a gun is no more dangerous than a carving knife I've got in my knife rack in the kitchen. I could kill someone with that just the same as I could with a gun. I keep a large hunting knife next to my bed. I've taken it out once and that was when Zero and I went outside to deal with the crazy neighbor who was off his meds. A growling cocker spaniel and a small guy armed with a large hunting knife. Yeah, we'd have jacked him up if he tried something.  

For the record, I don't own a gun and have never even fired one in my life, yet I have no more fear of them than I do of a pitch fork or a chain saw. The only real difference between a gun and those two things is that a gun can kill at a distance. I suppose a pitch fork could too, but you'd have to throw it pretty hard and be pretty accurate w/it.


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## Chris / Oakley (Feb 16, 2009)

'Sophisticated Alarm Systems' have MANY definitions, from company to company or tech to tech. They cost much more then the free ADT systems, or even the $100 upgrades.

The standard system is 2 doors and a motion detector. These systems are a joke, and I felt bad as a tech installing them.

There are 2 levels of security with an alarm system, one that goes off before the burglar enters your premise, and ones that go off after they are already inside, motion detectors are the later and really aren't the best solution if you have pets. However, there are very good pet immune sensors (again, much more then the base price).

Your primary line of defense is your doors and windows... (some cases your roof, yes.. your roof... I've seen a crook cut through the roof and come in through the attic.)

For a 'Sophisticated Alarm System'. You will need magnetic contacts on all doors and windows that open. Magnetic contacts are a very good security measure, as the contact can be anywhere on the window or door, and they are designed as 'normally closed', so if a thief decides to bypass it by cutting the wire, the alarm will go off. One thing to keep in mind is that casement (crank out windows) do not really require contacts, the only real purpose for contacting those windows is to ensure they are all closed before you leave, as you would be unable to arm the system if one were open (unless you bypass it, but then that is your responsibility) The casement is a great design as you have to destroy the window to get in and most likely a thief would just smash the window. 

This leads to the second line of defense, glass break detectors, which go off to the sound of smashing glass. So if a thief thinks he can outwit your magnetic sensor, surprise.

Lastly you have your motion detectors, which don't work during stay mode, however... if you are SURE that you will not go into that area while the system is armed, you can program that zone to be active even while in stay mode. Most companies don't like to do this as false alarm fines that the customer can get can get quite outrageous. The best locations for motion detectors is high traffic areas, such as hallways or stairways. However, in a pet home, with pet immune sensors, you must avoid stairways, as the sensor will think a pet going up the stairs is a person.

With those three sensors and a good installation tech, you would have a VERY secure home. The only other concerns are if the thief decided to cut your phone line, or the power. (Power is not an issue anymore as all alarms have backup batteries that are usually good for 8 to 24 hours, depending on number of powered sensors.) As for the phone line you can get a cellular backup system that interfaces with the alarm. These usually cost the same as the monitoring fee, so it will double your monthly cost. The nice thing is, some people don't have phone lines these days, so it's an alternative, and will be about the same price as subscribing to a telephone company. The only way to stop that system is to have a cellular signal jammer, and now you're getting into some very 'Sophisticated Thieves'.

There are a number of another options, such as shock sensors for the windows, or you can get armour coat, which is a 3M product, applied to both sides of the window, making it VERY durable, and near impossible to break. There was a picture of a pane of glass, with the 3M coat on only 1 side, with a cinder block stuck in it, didn't go all the way through.

Sorry for typing so much, hope this helps any alarm woes... as a properly installed alarm IS better then a guard dog, which can also be bypassed, or killed. If you are getting some bad results, ask your friends for who they recommend, as you need an alarm company that cares. The company I worked for was the best in the city by far, when we left your house was cleaner when we got there, with no visible wires. I know when I was selling a system I would put myself in the shoes of the homeowner and a thief, figuring out the best balance between the 2, for convenience and security. 

Good luck.


*Edit: One last thing, no matter how expensive and sophisticated your alarm is, it needs to be on to work... so, you are the last line of defense.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Some people associate dogs with danger. 

By comparison 

A gun cannot unlock itself, load itself, take the safety off and shoot someone. 

A dog can decide to open her/his mouth and bite someone. A dog can also escape a home, yard or vehicle and attack someone. 

Though I don't consider dogs in general dangerous, they all have teeth but they do not all bite. A gun doesn't even have free will and I certainly don't think danger when I think of a gun. 

Some people have irrational fears, sometimes I understand such fears are governed by previous experiences. So I'm not judging anyone who's been in a bad situation.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

A bit off topic to start with.... A gun is a hunk of metal.... No more or less dangerous than any hunk of metal sitting on a table. Humans are dangerous. Guns are not. I don't know how old I was when I ever gave a second thought to guns, or heard of anyone afraid of them. Some of my best memories of the men that raised me involve firearms. From sitting on my great grandaddie's knee eating biscuits and sorgum syrup, his double barrel shotgun leaning behind the kitchen door. ( that very shot gun currently sits in my gun safe) Riding on the ranch in the truck with Grandaddy, a .30-30 in the window rack. Sitting on hunting stands with both paternal great grandfathers, both grandfathers, my dad, my uncle and a couple of great uncles, etc. (I was the only male child, grandchild, great grandchild, etc for quite some time on both sides of my family. So looking back there seemed to be some competition as to who got to hunt with me. It was great for me, because I got to hunt and learn from all the grandaddies, great grandaddies, uncles, etc. In any case years later, I would have to sit down and think about exactly how many firearms I own. I will not detail them on a public forum but its a bunch. That being said, I am not and have never have been a trigger happy gun nut. 

Fear of guns makes about as much sense as being afraid of Fords because of Drunk drivers. Its men not metal that are dangerous. 


Now back on subject.....

I have an alarm system..... It is monitored and many huge steps above the entry level systems. I don't turn it on when I am home. We do use it when my wife and I are both away. My wife also uses it when I am out of town. But when I am home I don't see the point. The dogs will let me know something is amiss long before the alarm goes off. Merlin (aka Radar ears) Hears EVERYTHING. A cat jumping on the car, an armadillo walking across the front yard etc. Buc the Lab does not seem to hear quite as well. He will alert to some noises but doesn't seem to catch some things Merlin does. 

A couple of interesting things about my dogs.... Merlin is not chatty and will not bark if there is nothing to bark at. He also does not go balistic over small things. Buc usually joins in on what Merlin barks at. If the dogs are sleeping and Buc goes off barking, you need to listen to see if Merlin pops off to know if it is something or not. Buc barks in his dreams sometimes. I have never had a dog that did this before. He is a rescue and I think he had a bad life prior to us. I wonder if he is dreaming about bad things that happened to him. 

In any case, the dogs are going to let me know something is amiss long before an alarm will. I am more than prepared to deal with it. And in any case, I tend to think that the Sheriff will respond quicker getting a 911 call from a homeowner stating something is going on versus an alarm company.


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## Chris / Oakley (Feb 16, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> In any case, the dogs are going to let me know something is amiss long before an alarm will. I am more than prepared to deal with it. And in any case, I tend to think that the Sheriff will respond quicker getting a 911 call from a homeowner stating something is going on versus an alarm company.


I completely disagree with this... if the Sheriff put the alarm company at a lower priority then the Sheriff is in the wrong. The alarm company has a couple advantages, they are third party and clear headed, so they can relay the information in a much more efficient manner, not to mention relay the point of entry so the Sheriff has some idea where to start. A homeowner, (maybe not you, but say someone that is more timid and alone) could be terrified of the thought of someone downstairs, and might be hysteric on the phone.

Don't want to turn this into a debate, in your scenario, you could be 100% right and be more effective then the alarm company... however when the cops are called, they are usually the weakest link in the whole system. Response time is everything.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Chris / Oakley said:


> I completely disagree with this... if the Sheriff put the alarm company at a lower priority then the Sheriff is in the wrong. The alarm company has a couple advantages, they are third party and clear headed, so they can relay the information in a much more efficient manner, not to mention relay the point of entry so the Sheriff has some idea where to start. A homeowner, (maybe not you, but say someone that is more timid and alone) could be terrified of the thought of someone downstairs, and might be hysteric on the phone.
> 
> Don't want to turn this into a debate, in your scenario, you could be 100% right and be more effective then the alarm company... however when the cops are called, they are usually the weakest link in the whole system. Response time is everything.


I agree and disagree.... I know what you are saying about a timid disoriented person.... Which is why my wife uses the alarm. 

But there is no reason I cannot tell the Sherriff where the bad guys are trying to get in at. That is going to be where the dogs are barking at. 

As far as the police responding more slowly to a call from the alarm company. Yes they are in the wrong if they respond less quickly, but I am quite sure it happens. The majority of alarm calls are false alarms. Our local charges 50 bucks for a false alarm. You get one free one a year. After that it is 50 bucks a pop for false alarms. I have never paid for one here at the house. 

I have paid for more than a few at my place of business. Different police department from the house. They don't charge me all the time. They start charging me if we start having a trend. But then again The business I manage tends to get hit a couple of times a year. 

In any case..... A lot of time can pass from when the police are called to when they arrive. The attached chart is from the USDOJ and an average for 2006.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/cvus/current/cv06107.pdf


There is less than 27 percent chance the police are going to show within 5 minutes on a crime of violence and about 11 percent chance they are going to show within in that time frame on a property crime. 

Most likely time frame is going to be 6-10 minutes on a home invasion type crime. ALOT of things can happen in that much time. I ain't waiting on the police.

BTW laws on self defense vary greatly in the US. I am not up on all states. Most of the South and Soutwest have pretty well written Castle Doctrines. 
Some places don't have Castle Doctrines and home owners can actually get into issues over defending themselves. 

Here in Florida our Castle Doctrine is very well written. The law reads that it is assumed that if someone attempts uninvited entry into your home, the assumption is that they mean you harm and the resident is free to take whatever steps they feel neccessary. The Castle Doctrine in Florida also applies at ones place of business as well as their vehicle. There is another version with only slightly more restrictions for when you are out in public.


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> 308 I especially appreciate your comments


Kind of nice to know that I'm not pissing everyone off

For the alarm system, the only reason why I have one is to notify me. Even if the local law KNEW I was in trouble, it would most likely be a good 10 minutes (dropping everything they were doing).

Sorry, 10 minutes can be too long.

The problem is that people EXPECT other people to help them, and then if they don't get what they want or expect from the help, they'll sue. 

The person you need to rely upon most is yourself.



> Just so long as you know that there are plenty of Americans who also associate guns with danger and not freedom!


Usually they're Democrats, have never served their country, and never picked up a gun in their life.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Chris / Oakley said:


> I completely disagree with this... if the Sheriff put the alarm company at a lower priority then the Sheriff is in the wrong. The alarm company has a couple advantages, they are third party and clear headed, so they can relay the information in a much more efficient manner, not to mention relay the point of entry so the Sheriff has some idea where to start. A homeowner, (maybe not you, but say someone that is more timid and alone) could be terrified of the thought of someone downstairs, and might be hysteric on the phone.
> 
> Don't want to turn this into a debate, in your scenario, you could be 100% right and be more effective then the alarm company... however when the cops are called, they are usually the weakest link in the whole system. Response time is everything.


You are incorrect and Johnny Bandit is correct on this one. I spent 6 years working with law enforcement so I know from first hand experience. Something like 90-95% of alarms in my municipality are false alarms. (They actually spent money on doing a study on it here.) When officers get the call of an audible alarm, they tend to treat it like the boy crying wolf. Someone on the phone saying there is a burglar in the house or someone calling reporting a burglar in the neighbors house across the street is treated as a much, much higher priority because the officers know there is a crime in progress at the time. They don't know that with an alarm going off.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I am not ashamed to admit Spicy that I an terrified of the Caucasian Ovcharka


They are very formidable. 

The other day our friend was here and mine became very upset, more so than usual. He couldn't understand because she sees him all the time. She still views him as an outsider. Though she has accepted a couple people and it is a night and day difference.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

hulkamaniac said:


> You are incorrect and Johnny Bandit is correct on this one. I spent 6 years working with law enforcement so I know from first hand experience. Something like 90-95% of alarms in my municipality are false alarms. (They actually spent money on doing a study on it here.) When officers get the call of an audible alarm, they tend to treat it like the boy crying wolf. Someone on the phone saying there is a burglar in the house or someone calling reporting a burglar in the neighbors house across the street is treated as a much, much higher priority because the officers know there is a crime in progress at the time. They don't know that with an alarm going off.


Well if that is true then it certainly isn't worth paying the big bucks for the alarm system's is it? I wonder how they would feel if they dragged their feet on an alarm only to get there and see a family was murdered?
I work in a hospital and we get CODE calls all the time. 95% of them are false alarms too but they respond immediately to all of them. Wouldn't want to miss the one that was real. Someones life depends on it.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

There was a story in my local newspaper lately... I don't even remember what it was but what stuck out to me was that an alarm was triggered and 90 MINUTES LATER the police showed up. I hope it was a typo.

My cousin is a firefighter. I used to live in a college dorm where just about every single night, someone pulled the fire alarm. Every single time the alarm was pulled, the fire department dispatched all of the trucks very quickly. In the case that the dorms actually were on fire, they'd need them all. It didn't matter that it most likely was going to be a false alarm... in the case it wasn't, they were ready.


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## BobSD (Feb 1, 2008)

just wondering since I have never had need of a professional security system, do not the people that set you up respound with there kinda cops? I think my brother in Texas, said that they did come out and will charge you if a false alarm. If so they actually make money coming out so would not mind. That would take a load off the local police, I would think.

Forgive me, just changing the subject even more, think about it, our country was founded through battle, thats how we became this great nation. But we never have stopped, the civil war, Spanish/American, ww1, ww2, korea, Vietnam,(my war), and the present conflicts. I just wish we spent more money on upgrading our forces and equipment. then peeing it away on these present engagements. JMO PS any of you gun happy guys do any reloading. You will never see me throwing a casing away


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## .308 (Jul 26, 2009)

> I tend to think that the Sheriff will respond quicker getting a 911 call from a homeowner stating something is going on versus an alarm company.


And it all depends what you tell them over the phone that can determine how quick they may want to get there.

Per alarms

Your alarm goes off, chances are it alerts you and the alarm company/police.

The bad guys now have one of two choices to make when they hear the alarm.

1. They get the heck out of dodge because they don't want to get caught (which means even if the alarm didn't go to a security company, the bad guys would still leave).

2. They stay in dodge because they don't care.

If the bad guys pick #2, you're could be in deep doo doo if you aren't prepared and your relying on help to come.

I just love those TV alarm commercials where the bad guys kick the door down, the alarm goes off, and they go running off. 



> I wonder how they would feel if they dragged their feet on an alarm only to get there and see a family was murdered?


They would of had some "technical difficulty" responding to the call. They would NEVER intentionally be late.



> PS any of you gun happy guys do any reloading. You will never see me throwing a casing away


For rifle calibers, anything that I shoot more than 30 rounds a minute I don't reload for, but buy surplus.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I guess it depends on the company. Maybe some send out our their security team but not mine nor the others I know. They call and you have to give them a password if no one answers or it is wrong they know you are in trouble or you are the bad guy. The police are dispatched, in my case the sheriff dept. comes out.


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## Chris / Oakley (Feb 16, 2009)

BobSD said:


> just wondering since I have never had need of a professional security system, do not the people that set you up respound with there kinda cops? I think my brother in Texas, said that they did come out and will charge you if a false alarm. If so they actually make money coming out so would not mind. That would take a load off the local police, I would think.
> 
> Forgive me, just changing the subject even more, think about it, our country was founded through battle, thats how we became this great nation. But we never have stopped, the civil war, Spanish/American, ww1, ww2, korea, Vietnam,(my war), and the present conflicts. I just wish we spent more money on upgrading our forces and equipment. then peeing it away on these present engagements. JMO PS any of you gun happy guys do any reloading. You will never see me throwing a casing away


There are some companies (very few) that have their own response. I recall reading about one such company in Vancouver, BC. They have a designated response area with a guaranteed time. They inform you at the time of the install if you fall within that area. What they do is.. dispatch their own people while simultaneously calling authorities, and they can't guarantee when the police get there, but they do guarantee that their people are there in less then 3 minutes from the time the alarm is received.

Going back to the police not knowing if it is a false or not.. this is true, and there are ALOT of false alarms, 90% of false alarms are user error. If you have a good system, the alarm monitoring company can tell if there is someone still in your home. If they see the codes that a door is broken into, followed by a living room motion, then a hallway motion, then basement, etc.. etc... with no attempt to disarm there is a 99% chance that there is a burglary in process. The other 1% is a moron that doesn't acknowledge the siren or the ringing phone, or someone with a hearing disability. The issue of false alarms has been treated with a fine (money grab) so.. they should still acknowledge the alarm, they are being PAID to go. As mentioned about hospital codes, even if it is false, it could be real. So they all need to be treated as a true threat.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Chris / Oakley said:


> Going back to the police not knowing if it is a false or not.. this is true, and there are ALOT of false alarms, 90% of false alarms are user error. If you have a good system, the alarm monitoring company can tell if there is someone still in your home. If they see the codes that a door is broken into, followed by a living room motion, then a hallway motion, then basement, etc.. etc... with no attempt to disarm there is a 99% chance that there is a burglary in process. The other 1% is a moron that doesn't acknowledge the siren or the ringing phone, or someone with a hearing disability. The issue of false alarms has been treated with a fine (money grab) so.. they should still acknowledge the alarm, they are being PAID to go. As mentioned about hospital codes, even if it is false, it could be real. So they all need to be treated as a true threat.


Again, that's just not true. At least it's not true in the county I live in. A storm or a strong wind can come along and set off all kinds of alarms. I've seen alarms like the one you described where you get front door, hallway motion, basement motion, etc.... and cops get there and 99% of the time it's a homeowner who disarmed the alarm and didn't call their alarm company or silenced the alarm and didn't think to deactivate it. It's like the boy who cried wolf. Your alarm goes off 100 times and 99 times it's false, how quickly are the cops going to come out the one time it's legit? Or are they going to deal with Susie and Johnny who are having their weekly argument again? or Joey who decided he's going to drive himself home from the bar for the 5th time this week despite the fact that he can't see straight.

Alarms are useful when they a) scare the burglar away or b) attract the attention of the home owner or a concerned neighbor who sees something going on and calls the cops. A dog can easily do both of those things. If someone breaks into my house, my dogs will bark. I don't know how scary that's going to be to a burglar or whether that'll attract a neighbor or not, but either way, it's just as effective as an alarm in my book.

Ever walk through a parking lot and hear a car alarm going off? Ever call the cops to report it? Honestly, I rarely even look in the direction of the alarm. That's how effective alarms are.


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