# Sudden resource gaurding



## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

Um... Okay so this JUST happened and I am still in shock... I have never had any problems before, I would work with her on everything so she wouldnt be resource possessive. I can take away her food and put my hand next to it and I hold her nylabone while she chews it and can touch her toys and grab them while she is playing with them (at least I thought I still could, gonna test it all tomorrow) Well tonight, she got a new chew toy cause her nylabone is getting old, it is time for bed and she was tearing it apart pretty good so I open the crate door to take it away and give her a treat. When I reached for it SHE BIT ME!! Not hard at all but she still did the action, she snarled and bit and wouldnt let it go and turned her head away from me. I dont know if I handled this correctly but it did seem to work. 
I didnt take my hand away when she bit, I kept it right on the toy, I gave her the command to "drop it" And she would not listen at all, I put my other hand on the toy and she lifts up her lips and growls, I tell her again to drop it, still doesnt work, at this point I have to pry it out of her mouth, and she had a death grip on this thing. After I get it out I hold it in my hand and tell her to leave it, after she leaves it for a couple of minutes, I take the other toys that are in there one by one and set them all in my lap telling her to leave every single one. I then allow her to chew on the toy, while I am holding it with my hand touching her lips. Then place my other hand on her paw, then her head, then the other side of her mouth, she snarls again, and the toy gets taken away once more by telling her to leave it, and I mess with it right in front of her. After a bit she gets to try again, chew on it while I hold it, then touch her paw her head and then to her mouth, no snarl this time, ignored my hand placements completely, then I pet her and say "good girl". I try bringing my head closer next, I kiss her head, and she is still perfectly fine. So I let go of the toy, let her chew on it without me touching anything for a bit. I then reach for it again, and she snapped. Then this entire process was repeated, once she had it down that that toy is mine and she needs to share and she only gets it when she is good and nice and gets permission for it, we move on to a chicken treat and do the entire process with that, I then give her back the rest of her toys, and touch every single one, I pick them up, tell her to leave them when she reaches for one as I touch it, and give her permission after she completes that.
It seemed to work for now, but I would like to know if I handled any of that correctly?? 
I havent read much up on resource guarding, all I knew to do was to start working on it while she was young by touching everything and being around while she would eat or chew and work on putting my hand over it and making her sit yada yada.
We have never had a problem before that I remember, although she did snarl a bit a couple of days ago when she had a chicken twist thing, and I reached in her crate to adjust her bed. I left it for then because it was 2 am due to me getting home very late from a family outing. So please tell me how to help her get over this problem before it gets bad. 

This cannot happen, I wont allow her to be possessive, she needs to give things up when I want them, and she needs to let me touch her stuff without biting. I have family over a lot that has young young kids and babies, and I cant have her biting one of them because they came close to her toy or treat. 
Please tell me how to fix this problem, and "letting her chew on it in peace because its only with a couple of items" Isnt an option. I know this may sound harsh and its not like I dont let her have things in peace, she can. I just need to be able to touch them and get them when needed or pet her while she is chewing without having to worry about her biting me or someone else. And I dont know if this matters but she is 10 months old now. Thanks


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Sorry that happened; it is frightening when your ordinarily lovable dog starts growling at you. It sounds as though she really likes the new chew toy - more than other toys she's had.

I'm not sure why you need to take things away or mess around with her while she has a chew toy or food. As I'm sure you've read here, the solution to having people and kids around is to give your dog her food in her crate or another room where she won't be bothered. If you need to take something, it's good to build a solid foundation of trading up. That way she learns that if she gives up something she wants, chances are she'll get something better in return.

For addressing RG, check out Jean Donaldson's _Mine!_ and Patricia McConnell's blog post, Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention

The general idea is that she should see people approaching her as a good thing, not a sign that she will lose her toy/food.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Puppies are not set, they grow and mature and we have to keep helping them learn and building on that foundation we started with them. We do have to remember to grow with them and focus on helping them and not let taking it too personally get in our way of being good teachers. Its not about you, it's about Nova learning that when she looses, she is still a winner.. Dogs should always be the winners when we the humans get what we want of them.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

I agree with cookieface's suggested reading material to get you headed in the right direction as far as *how* to work on this issue. In the meantime - management!! She should have NO toys or chews left lying around if there are visitors, particularly children that might be inclined to pester or otherwise approach her. And please!!! Do not EVER "test" her by kissing her on the head!! This is very, very dangerous & a great way to get bitten in the face! Most dogs don't like to be leaned over & kissed to begin with, and a dog that is already feeling defensive will be less tolerant than she might otherwise be. 

Messing around with & randomly taking her stuff away - even if you give it back once you 'show her it's yours' - has a high likelihood of backfiring & making the problem worse. You need to start building a better, more trusting relationship with her to help with this, not a combative one.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

It could also have been that you were reaching into her crate and she felt threatened because she was trapped and had nowhere to go, and could have nothing to do with the bone.

Now she may have a negative association with you reaching for things, remembering how she felt at that time.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> It could also have been that you were reaching into her crate and she felt threatened because she was trapped and had nowhere to go, and could have nothing to do with the bone.
> 
> Now she may have a negative association with you reaching for things, remembering how she felt at that time.


Good catch! I missed the being in the crate part. Yes this ^^^ dogs can feel more threatened if they don't have an escape route (e.g., if they are leashed or in a crate or other enclosed area).

I'd still treat it like resource guarding and be mindful of situations where she may feel trapped as Ireth0 described.


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## hjax (Dec 14, 2015)

I think all of the above advice is very useful. 

Also, I fostered an Akita pup for a while that had a serious resource guarding issue, and we were instructed by a certified trainer to never attempt to just take things from him. We were told to "make a trade". Offer something of higher value than whatever the pup has, and that way the pup won't see you as a big mean human stealing his favorite toy/treat, but rather he'll see it as a cool game where he gets a fun treat or toy for giving up whatever he has. And also what ireth0 said about reaching into the crate is very important. It's the dog's safe space, kids/family/whoever should be instructed to leave the dog alone while they are in their crate, that way the dog has somewhere to go if he/she is feeling overwhelmed and needs a break. But if your worried about her guarding the crate, I'd search up some crate games to play with her to build a positive association with humans around her crate. Best of luck, and remember, dogs need space sometimes just like we do  I really think your best bet would be to make the crate her area. My one dog has a crate downstairs that is his area only because sometimes he needs a break from humans/dogs and that's totally okay. I would rather he go lay in his crate where he knows he'll be left alone than get stressed out and end up biting someone/another dog because he's frustrated and feels he doesn't have somewhere to go.


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## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

Thank you everyone! I think this problem is only when she is in her crate, cause out of it, she will bring me her toys to play with, or she will even bring me her nylabone and make me hold it in place while she chews. I didnt think of trading, I have watched too much Cesar Milan when I was little and I guess some of his dumb ways are still in my brain >.< I didnt think of the crate as her gettaway place from everything, cause I can totally understand needing a place to go to get a break, and now that I understand this, she has one. I brush her teeth in her crate and after that she gets a chew to eat until she is ready to fall asleep, but I dont mess with her during this time. Her crate door isnt open for nighttime but it is open for her all day so she can go in and out as she needs. I also dont want her to start guarding her things from other dogs at the park or other peoples houses. I saw a doberman do this once at a park (he had stolen a doggie bag and was eating it, and his owner wasnt paying an ounce of attention on her dogs) and another dog just walked by him, and the doberman attacked him and it started a fight.

Thanks again


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## hjax (Dec 14, 2015)

DogtorWho15 said:


> Thank you everyone! I think this problem is only when she is in her crate, cause out of it, she will bring me her toys to play with, or she will even bring me her nylabone and make me hold it in place while she chews. I didnt think of trading, I have watched too much Cesar Milan when I was little and I guess some of his dumb ways are still in my brain >.< I didnt think of the crate as her gettaway place from everything, cause I can totally understand needing a place to go to get a break, and now that I understand this, she has one. I brush her teeth in her crate and after that she gets a chew to eat until she is ready to fall asleep, but I dont mess with her during this time. Her crate door isnt open for nighttime but it is open for her all day so she can go in and out as she needs. I also dont want her to start guarding her things from other dogs at the park or other peoples houses. I saw a doberman do this once at a park (he had stolen a doggie bag and was eating it, and his owner wasnt paying an ounce of attention on her dogs) and another dog just walked by him, and the doberman attacked him and it started a fight.
> 
> Thanks again


Haha, it's unfortunate that Milan gets so much attention, it's so misleading for so many dog owners. It's good that once you discovered positive reinforcement training you saw the logic in it, and the lack of logic in many of Cesar's methods. I really don't think that so many people would follow his methods if they knew there was a better, easier, and much more kind way to approach behavioral issues in dogs. It's all about learning and spreading the knowledge. I'm glad that most (if not all) of the people on this forum seem to follow positive training methods rather than adverse/punishment/dominance based methods - it's a lovely thing to see.


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## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

hjax said:


> Haha, it's unfortunate that Milan gets so much attention, it's so misleading for so many dog owners. It's good that once you discovered positive reinforcement training you saw the logic in it, and the lack of logic in many of Cesar's methods. I really don't think that so many people would follow his methods if they knew there was a better, easier, and much more kind way to approach behavioral issues in dogs. It's all about learning and spreading the knowledge. I'm glad that most (if not all) of the people on this forum seem to follow positive training methods rather than adverse/punishment/dominance based methods - it's a lovely thing to see.


I agree, my grandmother loves cesar, watches him all the time, all her dogs are already trained and old and know all the rules now, but she still agrees with everything he does. And whenever I go over there with Nova, she is ALWAYS telling me about what Cesar does to fix this and that, I try to explain to her that I've discovered much better ways now. It is hard trying to explain to people who have watched him all their lives that he is wrong. I am just glad I can do things right with my puppy, just wished I wouldve been on the forum the second I got her XD


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

PatriciafromCO said:


> Puppies are not set, they grow and mature and we have to keep helping them learn and building on that foundation we started with them. We do have to remember to grow with them and focus on helping them and not let taking it too personally get in our way of being good teachers. Its not about you, it's about Nova learning that when she looses, she is still a winner.. Dogs should always be the winners when we the humans get what we want of them.


So I am going to diverge from the other responses. I don't agree that dogs need to think they're "winning." I don't think "winning" or "losing" as human define those words makes sense to dogs. Dogs simply understand what is and what isn't acceptable behavior. I've raised enough litters with awesome bitches to learn that during the weaning process, when the puppies want to nurse and the mom doesn't want them to, she makes swift and noisy "correction" that will send the offending pups screaming away from her. Some pups just go away, others scream and holler and act like the world just ended. I've had some people who witnessed that feel "sorry" for the pup, and want to chastise the bitch and go comfort the poor pup (who was in no way injured). Other level-headed folks were impressed the bitch handled the little vampires with an assured authority. The pups weren't AFRAID forever after of the mother...she was still their world. Twenty minutes later she would be nuzzling them. 

How the OP handled her situation just seems rather bizarre to me. What should have been a QUICK two second reaction on her part, she chose to keep stress levels high, and allow more and more inappropriate behavior, while, oddly...doing weird touching behaviors as if she's asking PERMISSION from this puppy to be allowed to touch her and kiss her (I agree...in THIS circumstance, a good way to get bit on the face). 

How a dog THINKS it can deal with it's person is not about "practicing" things to PREVENT a dog from becoming everybody's key word a "resource guarder." I'm beginning to think all of those things are actually encouraging the dog, not preventing it. It is a bigger world...it is about the overall relationship every day with a dog. I NEVER "practice" taking stuff away from my dog. When I feed them, I don't "practice" putting my hand next to their bowl, or "pet" them while they are eating. But there are the few times when I've forgotten to put medication in the dog's food, and I either have to pick up a bowl while he/she is eating or reach down to put a pill in the food, and NOT ONCE has one of my dogs objected to that. When I give them raw, meaty bones, and I notice they've chewed it down to the point where they can swallow a big piece of bone...I will take that UBER PRIZE (nothing to "trade up" for) directly from their mouth. They can growl all they want, they can clamp down all they want (I give them that), but I'm still going to take it. They know it, I know it, but they've never bitten me. A "snarl" is different...a snarl is the lifting of lips...a snarl is I will bite you. A snarl isn't allowed.

I believe this has been discussed before...what happens when the dog has something so valuable there is nothing to "trade up." Placating the dog by this notion of allowing him to "win" over and over again doesn't actually address the real issue. So two experiences come to mind...one with a 9 month old pup I had once who, while he didn't like have his nails done, accepted that it was one of those weird thing humans had to do. He always submitted to it, he always got yummies, at first, while it was being done, later, AFTER it was being done. But, at 9 months, not unlike the OP's pups age of 10 months, he's a teenager, he's exploring how to get his way, his hormones and all. So we're doing nails and he suddenly takes exception to it. He basically clamps down on my fist which holds the dremel. I reach up with my other hand to take the dremel away and basically force my fist further into his mouth....I DON'T yell out or say a word. He's obviously very surprised...I'm sure his intention was for me withdraw my hand. I'm calmly looking at him while he tries to use his tongue to expel my hand, and he can't and I simply hold my hand with increasing pressure deeper into his mouth. He relaxes and then I relax, again without saying a word to him, "I" take my hand out of his mouth and simply continue with his nails...even with some puncture wounds that are beginning to ooze blood. He never again pulled that. And NO, he wasn't "afraid" of me after that, he wasn't "cowed" by that episode. He got his yummies same as usual after I finished, but wow...he actually stood better than ever for nail time.

The second experience was with a three year old bitch that I raised from a pup. She was DIFFICULT to say the least. She taught me a LOT about precocious pups/dogs. She constantly challenged me regarding how I reacted to her...and I can give a ton of experiences with her in other areas. But this particular experience has bearing on the OP's post. So my dogs typically sleep with me in bed. Many times, my dogs over the years go to the bed before me because of their internal clock knowing that I'm right behind them. So this time, this three year old dog was already on the bed when I wanted to go to sleep. The routine was....they have to get off until I get settled, and then they can get back up. One night...this bitch was on the bed, on MY side...and I tell her to get up and off. She ignores me. I tell her again...she ignores me. I reach to poke her and, and she whips her head toward me with a snarl and deep growl...teeth showing. This is a dog who, despite our little dances regarding who is in charge, has never ultimately challenged me. What happened, happened within seconds...I merely grabbed her by her loose neck skin and literally threw her off the bed onto the floor. I didn't say a word, I didn't even look at her. I merely got into bed like I always did....her dam, who witnessed the whole thing, hopped up as usual after I got settled. The 3 year old hopped back up shortly afterward. 

What I DIDN'T do was make a big deal out of it. I didn't spend an hour replaying the whole thing, I didn't do a bunch of re-hashing...I didn't start "obsessing" over what just happened...I didn't have this odd need to suddenly "feel bad" and make her feel like she "won." She didn't win. And she NEEDED to know that she didn't win. Just like her dam made a swift and definitive "correction" with this same 3 year old when she was a weanling and wanted to nurse and got told NO!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> I believe this has been discussed before...what happens when the dog has something so valuable there is nothing to "trade up." Placating the dog by this notion of allowing him to "win" over and over again doesn't actually address the real issue.


It has been discussed before, and you were told then that you don't have to trade up forever/every time the dog has something good. It's a thing you practice from the start to get them comfortable with you being around their food, and something you might reinforce every now and then to keep it fresh in their minds.

For example, when Casper was a pup, I'd hand-feed him sometimes, and I'd walk by while he was eating and drop something tasty beside him or in his bowl, and I'd trade a "better" (in his opinion) thing for whatever thing he was chewing on at the time. Now I have an adult dog who is totally comfortable with me being around his food (and bones and toys). If he grabs something up that he shouldn't have on a walk -- last time it was some cooked chicken bones, very dangerous -- I can take those and he doesn't growl or bite. He knows that in general, I am a fair owner who won't steal things from him for no reason, so if I occasionally take something, oh well. And I never had to grab him and throw him.

Also, comparing yourself to a dam is ridiculous. There's no way we can correct with the speed and efficiency of a mother dog, and our dogs wouldn't see it as the same thing, anyway. They know we're not dogs. You'd benefit by reading a good book like Patricia McConnell's The Other End of the Leash.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> It has been discussed before, and you were told then that you don't have to trade up forever/every time the dog has something good. It's a thing you practice from the start to get them comfortable with you being around their food, and something you might reinforce every now and then to keep it fresh in their minds.
> 
> Also, comparing yourself to a dam is ridiculous. There's no way we can correct with the speed and efficiency of a mother dog, and our dogs wouldn't see it as the same thing, anyway. They know we're not dogs. You'd benefit by reading a good book like Patricia McConnell's The Other End of the Leash.


I was "told"? The fact that in the course of previous discussions I was "told" by some people their theory or adherence to the whole trading up issue doesn't mean I actually agreed with it or that it is even right. Not all dogs are the same, just as not all people are the same. READ he OP's post. The whole PREMISE of the post was getting bitten and the OP being so surprised because of the LITTLE that she had read was, TO HIM/HER always touching stuff and/or making the dog sit...yadda yadda...but it was until toward the END of the post where he/she admitted that oh yeah, a few days ago she DID snarl at me when I reached into her crate. Crantastic, you probably would have seen that as an issue, and I surely would have, but the OP obviously didn't. 

I also disagree with your assertion that people can't "correct" with the speed and efficiency of a mother dog. The whole premise of Karen Pryor teaching clicker training is the speed and efficiency we develop to capture the moment of the RIGHT behavior. We, as humans, learn, if one truly understand operant conditioning, that even two seconds can mean we are positively reinforcing the behavior we want, versus a behavior we don't want. Timing is timing.

Your next quote is what frustrates me <<and our dogs wouldn't see it as the same thing, anyway. They know we're not dogs.>> I disagree with you that dog don't see "it" as the same thing. I do agree with you that they "know" we're not dogs...but it is an inane argument. The fact that me, as a human, reacts to an unacceptable behavior from a dog EXACTLY as a dog would doesn't mean the dog doesn't "see it as the same thing." Of course they "know" I'm not a dog....but they do know about complex social behaviors, and they DO understand about who is in charge. 

This forum wouldn't even exist if dogs didn't understand this. It is the whole reason dog are what they are in our human world. Even 100 years ago or more when training methods were more barbaric that we can imagine....our dogs still served our whims. They are THAT in tune to US as humans. For sure, thank goodness we TRAIN certain rote behaviors with more understanding of operant conditioning and the more positive side of it, because if they understand that, they surely understand everything else, and to deny both the dogs and neophyte humans, or humans that only read the first few lines of a google search is to do them a disservice. 

You can't positively reinforce a dog who exhibits a behavior that you want to change when that behavior is self-reinforcing TO THE DOG.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You should read some books so that you at least understand what you're arguing against.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

PaddiB, I have no idea what you're recommending. Use plain language---do you mean beat the dog, throw the dog to the ground, choke the dog? Then say so for pete's sake. If you mean something less barbaric, say that, in plain language. Making vague references to "how a mother dog would correct her puppies" is pretty useless; not all dogs react the same way, and some people may never have seen a mother dog with her pups. I mean, if you're trying to help someone fix their dog's problems, you really should make it clear what you think they should be doing. 

Also, 100 years ago there was a great deal of debate over how humans should treat animals, same as there is now. I don't believe that the majority of dog owners were terribly cruel at the time.


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## susielam570 (Dec 29, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> Also, comparing yourself to a dam is ridiculous. There's no way we can correct with the speed and efficiency of a mother dog, and our dogs wouldn't see it as the same thing, anyway. They know we're not dogs. You'd benefit by reading a good book like Patricia McConnell's The Other End of the Leash.


I'm new here, but I'm not new to dogs. I will say that I took a look at an excerpt from the book you're recommending and it doesn't appear to be telling people not to try and communicate with dogs 'in their own language', rather it supports the idea. It talks about being very aware of our own body language and how the dogs are reading us. These are, indeed, very important things when dealing with dogs.

I had a dog training business many years ago. I have a knack with it. I've also made mistakes in the past, regarding how I chose to communicate with dogs. I see Cesar Millan criticized a lot in many places. Not having seen him doing anything upsetting in what I HAVE seen of his work, I started looking around for examples and yes, I found them. I've seen him make mistakes, trying to take too much of a shortcut or even acting truly too 'aggressive' with certain dogs, instead of his 'calm assertiveness' that he talks about. But I'm not trying to drag this into another CM debate.

I believe that your comment is unnecessarily dismissive. We do communicate with dogs, on their level, whether we do it intentionally or not. They are absolute masters at reading our body language. MOST dogs do not require special efforts to communicate with them in specific ways. They integrate with their families and everyone gets along nicely, even if there are certain 'bratty' behaviors that many dog trainers would not accept, they don't cause major issues in the household, so that's fine. That's why it's also naive for folks to say that it's NEVER the dog. It certainly CAN be the dog, when they have learned unhealthy ways of reacting to different situations. In those cases, people have to learn to communicate with the dogs more clearly, sometimes exaggerating their communications until the dogs relearn how to react in a healthy way.

I do not advocate using shock collars or 'hanging' dogs. I certainly believe in using the least harsh, but effective methods possible. I wouldn't say that, in the case mentioned by PaddiB, he was being overly harsh by his action with his dog, although he was certainly risking a bite. It doesn't sound like he threw the dog across the room, only tossed it off the bed. Given the urgency of the situation, that may have been the best action and I have no doubt that the dog fully understand the communication in that circumstance. Just my weigh in.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

there is something to say about a self proclaimed mindset and approach when the user is still struggling with the behaviors after 3 years being the sole trainer since puppy hood ......... and being bitten with not just contact or just a scrap but bleeding puncture wound.... blaming the individual dog doesn't work for me to call others out on their approaches and ideas and when your giving advice to another person...


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## susielam570 (Dec 29, 2015)

PatriciafromCO said:


> there is something to say about a self proclaimed mindset and approach when the user is still struggling with the behaviors after 3 years being the sole trainer since puppy hood ......... and being bitten with not just contact or just a scrap but bleeding puncture wound.... blaming the individual dog doesn't work for me to call others out on their approaches and ideas and when your giving advice to another person...


I agree that's pretty strange to have a dog suddenly bite during grooming like that. It's hard to know what provoked the bite since, I'm sure, there were many things going on that we have no information about. It sounds like he handled the incident well though. Many people would have freaked out on the dog and started abusing it for the bite.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

susielam570 said:


> I'm new here, but I'm not new to dogs. I will say that I took a look at an excerpt from the book you're recommending and it doesn't appear to be telling people not to try and communicate with dogs 'in their own language', rather it supports the idea. It talks about being very aware of our own body language and how the dogs are reading us. These are, indeed, very important things when dealing with dogs.


Yes. There is a specific section where she explains the futility of trying to correct like a mother dog, though.

Like you said, you're new here, so you're not familiar with PaddiB's posts. This poster has recommended questionable training methods on several occasions. I will never agree that grabbing a dog by its skin and literally throwing it is okay.


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## susielam570 (Dec 29, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> Yes. There is a specific section where she explains the futility of trying to correct like a mother dog, though.
> 
> Like you said, you're new here, so you're not familiar with PaddiB's posts. This poster has recommended questionable training methods on several occasions. I will never agree that grabbing a dog by its skin and literally throwing it is okay.


Well, I guess he does say that her 'literally threw' the dog off the bed. I would have pictured more a situation of him just yanking the dog off the bed. Throwing a dog (or any living creature) could seriously injure it. I have to wonder if he isn't exaggerating. Dunno. Sounds like he's dealing with dogs who escalate quickly. :/


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I've trimmed dog nails every 10 days for 30+ years. Never once has there been a bite nor any need to manhandle them. They've shown nothing beyond a rare, mild, and short-lived vocal protest, at worst. Mostly because I 'listen' attentively and adjust accordingly if needed.

That household is in a state of upheaval, far too much for my own liking anyway .. dogs growling, snarling, biting, fists getting rammed down throats, dogs being poked and scruffed and thrown. Peace and harmony is sorely lacking there, but should be the order of the day. I truly feel sorry for dogs who have to live with such stress.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

susielam570 said:


> I'm new here, but I'm not new to dogs. I will say that I took a look at an excerpt from the book you're recommending and it doesn't appear to be telling people not to try and communicate with dogs 'in their own language', rather it supports the idea. It talks about being very aware of our own body language and how the dogs are reading us. These are, indeed, very important things when dealing with dogs.
> 
> I had a dog training business many years ago. I have a knack with it. I've also made mistakes in the past, regarding how I chose to communicate with dogs. I see Cesar Millan criticized a lot in many places. Not having seen him doing anything upsetting in what I HAVE seen of his work, I started looking around for examples and yes, I found them. I've seen him make mistakes, trying to take too much of a shortcut or even acting truly too 'aggressive' with certain dogs, instead of his 'calm assertiveness' that he talks about. But I'm not trying to drag this into another CM debate.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Susie. I chose to "quote" your entire post because I hope new people like you that come upon this on a different page will know that you have the courage to speak your mind, as I always try to do. The post from PatriciafromCO is simply a case of either her not bothering to read my post, or she's deliberately trying to muddle the issues. The nail incident was with a 9 month old pup (NOT three years old) and I specifically talked about nails, not simply just "grooming." This whole "re-direction" thing is rather perverse. The puncture wounds were of MY own doing keeping my hand in the dog's mouth from his MOLARS. I've never been bitten by ANY of my dogs. 

The only thing, Susie, that I disagree with you about is that I was "risking a bite." The actions I took in the split second both of those examples I gave actually PREVENTED any thoughts of a "bite." I find it rather sad that I get told to "read more books" (I've read hundreds, thank you very much), or that I'm not being "clear" enough and people (willowy) make it seem like I advocate violence. I've actually tried to get people on this forum to talk about Karen Pryor. I guess we're reading different books.

Since I already quoted your entire post, I'll get flamed for having too long of a post, so I'll try to be "more specific" in another separate post. But Suzie, I welcome you to look at my past posts, and not just believe others who want to call me a crackpot.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

PaddiB said:


> Thank you, Susie. I chose to "quote" your entire post because I hope new people like you that come upon this on a different page will know that you have the courage to speak your mind, as I always try to do. The post from PatriciafromCO is simply a case of either her not bothering to read my post, or she's deliberately trying to muddle the issues. The nail incident was with a 9 month old pup (NOT three years old) and I specifically talked about nails, not simply just "grooming." This whole "re-direction" thing is rather perverse. The puncture wounds were of MY own doing keeping my hand in the dog's mouth from his MOLARS. I've never been bitten by ANY of my dogs.
> 
> The only thing, Susie, that I disagree with you about is that I was "risking a bite." The actions I took in the split second both of those examples I gave actually PREVENTED any thoughts of a "bite." I find it rather sad that I get told to "read more books" (I've read hundreds, thank you very much), or that I'm not being "clear" enough and people (willowy) make it seem like I advocate violence. I've actually tried to get people on this forum to talk about Karen Pryor. I guess we're reading different books.
> 
> Since I already quoted your entire post, I'll get flamed for having too long of a post, so I'll try to be "more specific" in another separate post. But Suzie, I welcome you to look at my past posts, and not just believe others who want to call me a crackpot.


 I did read your post there is nothing that I said that didn't relate to the information that you gave

there is something to say about a self proclaimed mindset and approach when the *user is still struggling with the behaviors after 3 years being the sole trainer since puppy hood .*........ and *being bitten with not just contact or just a scrap but bleeding puncture wound..*..* blaming the individual dog doesn't work for me *to call others out on their approaches and ideas and when your giving advice to another person.

the dogs are what you teach them to be... by what they learn from how you handle them.. My Caucasian pup 100 something pounds at 7 months old, I thought he was about to swallow a balled up sock. split second coming into a situation and shoving my hand in his mouth to retrieve the sock, he clamped down on my hand in his mouth just as I realized wrapping my fist around the object that it wasn't a sock, but a full boneless chicken breast he had swiped from the cat who had stolen it off the counter meant for my senior GSD. Highly food aggressive Caucasian pup... And I sat there for a moment with my hand in his mouth ""amazed on how huge the inside of his mouth was to fully fit with excess room to spare my hand in a fist clutching a full chicken breast, that and how big his individual molars were compared to other dogs and he isn't finished growing lol ..... Gave him his moment then gave the same instructions I have taught him... :show me Arka: he relaxed opened his mouth and I withdrew my hand.. said OH it's chicken.. you can have chicken and gave it right back which he took gently.. " honestly if I had known it was chicken and not a sock I wouldn't of bothered him to begin with as it was not an emergency" No mark on me, no blood.. Just a calm dog to work with. No more food aggression.. He will always love his food but he knows how to interact around it and with it by his choice not needing any pampering or cues from me for the rest of his life.

non of my dogs challenge me not because they submit to me... it's because we know how to interact with each other willingly.... I personally Never trust an animal that needs submission or fear of consequences.. so I don't train-teach them that way..that way it's reliable with no unpredictability in their behaviors long term in their life time... force and consequences may work for weak dogs, but sooner or later it comes back to bite you when they fed up with it... And a stronger dog it will show it's self a lot more quicker. *(adding) because it doesn't teach them anything about themselves to do it themselves the next time..*

I don't mind other people having different opinions I've seen the results of heavy hand and force (it's why I was able to purchase the property I have to day being paid to undo force and hands on foundation training).. but it is different knocking other opinions they have never used to see the results and the difference.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

petpeeve said:


> I've trimmed dog nails every 10 days for 30+ years. Never once has there been a bite nor any need to manhandle them. They've shown nothing beyond a rare, mild, and short-lived vocal protest, at worst. Mostly because I 'listen' attentively and adjust accordingly if needed.
> 
> That household is in a state of upheaval, far too much for my own liking anyway .. dogs growling, snarling, biting, fists getting rammed down throats, dogs being poked and scruffed and thrown. Peace and harmony is sorely lacking there, but should be the order of the day. I truly feel sorry for dogs who have to live with such stress.


What I find so disturbing is that someone that who doesn't know me or my dogs can make such a blanket statement about what they don't know. The people who write to this forum, such as the OP in this thread SAID that she was surprised and upset and totally flabbergasted that because of the mere fact that she put her hand into a crate to take something away from her dog, she got BITTEN. She then went on to say the she embarked on a looong, drawn out "training session" which would somehow correct that. I have already made it CLEAR that because how SHE handled it, SHE was in danger of getting bitten even worse than what she already had been. 

I find it so offensive that simply because I proffered TWO incidences...and I could only think of two...that Petpeeve makes the leap that my house is in upheaval. I believe I am the one who's dogs can all eat together without being crated, PEACEFULLY, I am the one who can take away 'BIG VALUE' items without an extended "session" of upgrading. My dogs actually live WITHOUT stress because they actually understand what they can and can't do. I've had as many as seven dogs (large dogs) living in my house (they all eat together side by side....a few whippets thrown in there). When I "announce" to my pack of dogs if they all want to go outside...they all charge to the door. Guess what...I don't DEMAND they sit and wait, I don't demand anything....they're all pushing and shoving...if I was such a control freak, I'd be throwing them and choking them and all of the other ghastly things petpeeve and others think I do. But guess what....training is DIFFERENT than a dog understanding BOUNDARIES. I've been on crutches a few times in my life...and even though not all of my dogs were TRAINED....if I need some space at the door, I can TELL them to back off a bit so I am safe.

Let's talk about this whole "fear of being bitten." Well, like it or not all of you anti-Cesar people...dogs are NOT simply the result of google searches and training techniques...they are living breathing animals, and animals for whom their WHOLE SURVIVAL is based on how well they READ US, as humans. And this is where Suzie is exactly right. If your are afraid of getting bitten, they know it. I've taken in rescues who "supposedly" were "scary" because they kept threatening their owners. I've gone in, not so much as not realizing I COULD be bitten, but not fearing it. I'll TAKE a bite if what I do AFTER the bite happens will help the dog. I rescued one dog who had been in several homes due to "aggressive tendencies" and I was called in as a last resort. So of course, intellectually I had concerns, but realistically, if we were to help this dog, I can't be afraid. So I wasn't. I already made up my mind I could be bitten by simply wanting to go in a different direction on a walk than he did (which is why he was given up by one of his owners). 

So I go to the rescue center...everyone is handling this dog with kid gloves...they hand him off to me, and before I take him home, we stop at a park and we go for a walk. When he pulls to go one way, I simply stop. Calmly. Doesn't matter if he sits or not, I could care less....I begin walking, he goes...he wants to go another way...I stop....again...I don't care whether or not he objects....I simply stop. He NEVER once did what his HISTORY said he would do...he never CHALLENGED ME. I never "choked" him, I never "poked" him, I never "scruffed" him, I didn't have to do ANYTHING petpeeve seems to think that is my "household." I simply wasn't afraid of him. Obviously....this fact alone was enough for this dog to actually RELAX, because all of his previous owners were scared to death of him...all 10 MONTHS OF HIS LIFE. I realized this dog was ALLOWED to use his teeth to intimidate his SEVERAL previous owners, and after the first one, the subsequent ones were "afraid" of getting bitten, and they tried all things petpeeve an other think are so useful in order to fix him. Well, I had this for three months, without ever having to do all the horrible things petpeeve seems to think I do with my dogs, and the rescue group tells me they have found a home. 

So the people come to my house, and I am HONEST with them about his history with both his previous owners and with me. And I tell them he has been a jewel with me, and why...because I am NOT afraid of him. So here is the thing, with this "anti-Cesar" forum that I keep trying to expound....This dog...who came to me at 10 MONTHS...had already been through three homes because everybody thought he was aggressive...who had NEVER offered to bite me, who never acted in any way aggressively toward me or my other dogs, came back to me within two weeks because right off the bat, even though everybody THOUGHT these people understood the history of this dog, they BACKED DOWN as soon as this dog objected to something. So regardless of whether they were on google or this forum (this all happened before the internet), turns out, despite education, they were AFRAID of getting bitten. Two more homes, and two more times, despite education, people were afraid of this dog. I never had one bit of problem with him.

The OP on this thread admitted there were signs before the "big bite" happened. She was obviously "armed" with all the google stuff and new fangled trading up nonsense....but she never actually taught her dog acceptable versus unacceptable behavior....and now she is AFRAID of this PUPPY. 

I tried to give a couple examples where otherwise well behaved dogs did something that is egregious, and I handled those incidences in a certain way. These were dogs who otherwise had never exhibited that behavior, who otherwise had never experienced what/how I handled it before...but who thereafter never exhibited that behavior again. And yet, willowy and petpeeve want to make it seem like something perverse and chaotic...and again...my dogs (up to seven at a time) all eat peacefully beside each other, my dogs don't have to be separated with bones, I can reach into a crate without getting bitten. 

Oh....I have a great Rottweiler story I'll talk about...later because again...wouldn't want this to get too long.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess. . .if you're not talking about violence, what the heck are you talking about?


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

PatriciafromCO said:


> non of my dogs challenge me not because they submit to me... it's because we know how to interact with each other willingly.... I personally Never trust an animal that needs submission or fear of consequences.. so I don't train-teach them that way..that way it's reliable with no unpredictability in their behaviors long term in their life time... force and consequences may work for weak dogs, but sooner or later it comes back to bite you when they fed up with it... And a stronger dog it will show it's self a lot more quicker. *(adding) because it doesn't teach them anything about themselves to do it themselves the next time..*


I think you and others need to look up the word submission (submit). It is not some horrible thing. Don't you "submit" to speed signs? Do you only "submit" to speed laws because you were beaten by the police? Think about it.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

PaddiB said:


> I think you and others need to look up the word submission (submit). It is not some horrible thing. Don't you "submit" to speed signs? Do you only "submit" to speed laws because you were beaten by the police? Think about it.


lol actually I follow the speed limit and follow the laws because my Parents took the time to teach me to make my own choices on my own interacting with society...


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

and you still don't understand what the whole trading up "nonsense" actually *teaches by doing* to both dog and a new handler for you to claim a negative opinion on it. 

that is what is interesting to me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

People obey/submit to traffic laws either because they recognize the value of those laws (to reduce accidents and deaths) or because they don't want to pay a fine. I would rather drive with/around someone who recognizes the value of those laws . Obedience due to fear/avoidance fails when nobody is looking.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

PaddiB, people argue with you about resource guarding because you don't seem to understand what they're doing. You're saying that the trading game is useless and stupid, but you're misrepresenting it. You seem to think that in an emergency situation, people are trying to bargain with the dog. That is _not_ what's going on. 

People practice trading up to teach the dog that handing over valued items is a good thing. That way, in the future, when the dog grabs something dangerous the person can just take it with no trading necessary. It's building a foundation of trust between human and dog. _And it works_. I can't believe you've read hundreds of books and you don't understand this concept. Not one of the authors explained it?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

PaddiB said:


> I think you and others need to look up the word submission (submit). It is not some horrible thing. Don't you "submit" to speed signs? Do you only "submit" to speed laws because you were beaten by the police? Think about it.


I dunno, I obey stop signs because I don't want to get smashed by another car flying by or vice versa. I obey stop signs and speed signs because I understand the reasoning behind them and the concepts of design speed, speed suitable for weather conditions, etc. I don't "submit" to those signs, I use my human brain to process the generally very good guidance they are giving me and use that to my benefit so I don't skid off the road on a curve or crest a hill too fast for sight distance.

Since dogs can't really think things through at that level, it goes back to the basics of things like trust and fear of punishment vs anticipation of good stuff. You don't always have to have good stuff if the dog has built up a sufficient level of trust which based on good stuff happening. Fear of punishment leads to fear reactions which negates trust and often backfires for the humans.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

trading up teaches the the behavior by doing it.. and it also teaches the new handler to know their dog and that builds confidence and trust both ways... My Dad always said about other peoples dogs.... You don't know what they know....... so you can't assume they will be like our dogs.... That alone has held true for a life time about animals.....


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> PaddiB, people argue with you about resource guarding because you don't seem to understand what they're doing. You're saying that the trading game is useless and stupid, but you're misrepresenting it. You seem to think that in an emergency situation, people are trying to bargain with the dog. That is _not_ what's going on.
> 
> People practice trading up to teach the dog that handing over valued items is a good thing. That way, in the future, when the dog grabs something dangerous the person can just take it with no trading necessary. It's building a foundation of trust between human and dog. _And it works_. I can't believe you've read hundreds of books and you don't understand this concept. Not one of the authors explained it?





Shell said:


> I dunno, I obey stop signs because I don't want to get smashed by another car flying by or vice versa. I obey stop signs and speed signs because I understand the reasoning behind them and the concepts of design speed, speed suitable for weather conditions, etc. I don't "submit" to those signs, I use my human brain to process the generally very good guidance they are giving me and use that to my benefit so I don't skid off the road on a curve or crest a hill too fast for sight distance.
> 
> Since dogs can't really think things through at that level, it goes back to the basics of things like trust and fear of punishment vs anticipation of good stuff. You don't always have to have good stuff if the dog has built up a sufficient level of trust which based on good stuff happening. Fear of punishment leads to fear reactions which negates trust and often backfires for the humans.


Very good comments that get to the heart of what we know about dog behavior vs human understanding.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> What I find so disturbing is that someone that who doesn't know me or my dogs can make such a blanket statement about what they don't know. The people who write to this forum, such as the OP in this thread SAID that she was surprised and upset and totally flabbergasted that because of the mere fact that she put her hand into a crate to take something away from her dog, she got BITTEN. She then went on to say the she embarked on a looong, drawn out "training session" which would somehow correct that. I have already made it CLEAR that because how SHE handled it, SHE was in danger of getting bitten even worse than what she already had been.
> 
> I find it so offensive that simply because I proffered TWO incidences...and I could only think of two...that Petpeeve makes the leap that my house is in upheaval. I believe I am the one who's dogs can all eat together without being crated, PEACEFULLY, I am the one who can take away 'BIG VALUE' items without an extended "session" of upgrading. My dogs actually live WITHOUT stress because they actually understand what they can and can't do. I've had as many as seven dogs (large dogs) living in my house (they all eat together side by side....a few whippets thrown in there). When I "announce" to my pack of dogs if they all want to go outside...they all charge to the door. Guess what...I don't DEMAND they sit and wait, I don't demand anything....they're all pushing and shoving...if I was such a control freak, I'd be throwing them and choking them and all of the other ghastly things petpeeve and others think I do. But guess what....training is DIFFERENT than a dog understanding BOUNDARIES. I've been on crutches a few times in my life...and even though not all of my dogs were TRAINED....if I need some space at the door, I can TELL them to back off a bit so I am safe.
> 
> ...


I find it offensive that you finds the comments offensive...

And your post is already too long.... Heck you should have gone ahead and shared your "rottweiler story". What is another thousand words when you are already at 1112....

Paddi.... There is a reason that on post after post, everyone disagrees with you.... Even folks who do not normally disagree....
Because time after time, you a blatantly incorrect on your assessments and advice....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Paddi, you've demonstrated time and time again that you really don't understand the process that people here are even talking about or how/why it works. 

I actually don't think the "training" the OP tried in that moment was useful or did anything. Because that's not the training moment. The training comes later, under separate circumstances. Resource guarding is a fear/anxiety based behavior - I'm afraid you're going to take my stuff away. Teach a dog that they don't have any reason to have that fear, and the behavior goes away. I'm not sure why you won't or can't grasp that very simple concept. Trading up, dropping higher and higher value items around a dog who already has something - that's teaching the dog. 

It works. It has worked on Pip who came to me as a very profound resource guarder, whom I can now take a RMB away from if necessary (although it is very rarely "necessary"). It has worked on countless dogs. Why you'd criticize and nitpick a technique _that works_ is beyond me. 

And honestly, I have no idea what techniques you even use to train dogs anyway. All you seem to do is criticize other people without offering concrete alternatives beyond vague talk that doesn't help anyone. 

So along those lines I'm curious, what _exactly_ would you tell the OP to do in their situation? No vague talk. Exactly how would you recommend the OP address this issue at this point? Step by step.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> What I find so disturbing is that someone that who doesn't know me or my dogs can make such a blanket statement about what they don't know. The people who write to this forum, such as the OP in this thread SAID that she was surprised and upset and totally flabbergasted that because of the mere fact that she put her hand into a crate to take something away from her dog, she got BITTEN. She then went on to say the she embarked on a looong, drawn out "training session" which would somehow correct that. I have already made it CLEAR that because how SHE handled it, SHE was in danger of getting bitten even worse than what she already had been.
> 
> I find it so offensive that simply because I proffered TWO incidences...and I could only think of two...*that Petpeeve makes the leap* that my house is in upheaval. I believe I am the one who's dogs can all eat together without being crated, PEACEFULLY, I am the one who can take away 'BIG VALUE' items without an extended "session" of upgrading. My dogs actually live WITHOUT stress because they actually understand what they can and can't do. I've had as many as seven dogs (large dogs) living in my house (they all eat together side by side....a few whippets thrown in there). When I "announce" to my pack of dogs if they all want to go outside...they all charge to the door. Guess what...I don't DEMAND they sit and wait, I don't demand anything....they're all pushing and shoving...if I was such a control freak, I'd be throwing them and choking them and *all of the other ghastly things petpeeve and others think I do*. But guess what....training is DIFFERENT than a dog understanding BOUNDARIES. I've been on crutches a few times in my life...and even though not all of my dogs were TRAINED....if I need some space at the door, I can TELL them to back off a bit so I am safe.
> 
> ...


It's not what I "think" or what I "seem to think". It's what YOU WROTE, all on your own. I was merely reiterating the facts as YOU presented them.

It's like the old adage about giving someone enough rope.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> The only thing, Susie, that I disagree with you about is that I was "risking a bite." The actions I took in the split second both of those examples I gave actually PREVENTED any thoughts of a "bite."


Your dog DID bite you. What else is "clamping down" on your hand with his MOUTH other than biting you? Your dog bit you while you were doing his nails.


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## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

Okay, first, I am NOT at all afraid of my puppy, I dont even know where you got that idea. Sure the bite gave me a quick shock, and I reacted to it (in the wrong way) but still did what I *thought* would work at the time. Then I came here, I went to the internet and learned that I didnt do the right thing. I made a mistake, its not my first one and it wont be my last, but guess what, I am a first time dog owner, I am not going to do everything correct, heck even long time owners dont do things correct 24/7. But my dog is still alive. She still loves me and I her, she is still trained better that other dogs I see. She forgives me when I mess up because sooner or later I will get it correct. I am not afraid of her, I am not afraid of being bit, if I was I wouldve shut that crate door, took my hand away immediately and gone to bed, probably not even wanting to touch her the next morning.

Paddi. I dont know your home situation or how you treat your dogs. And yeah maybe people are accusing you a little too much of things you may or may not do, but you are doing that exact same thing to us, and to me. I know I handled it wrong, but now I am doing it right. You are exaggerating things out of the wazoo. 
When Nova was around 8 weeks old until she was about 5 months, I did all the things cesar had said. I thought she needed to submit, and see me as the leader, yes I spanked her more than once cause I got so fed up with her behavior. But really it wasnt her at all, it was me. I was so focused on getting her to obey just cause "I was the boss and what I say goes", I never was open to anything else, such as positive reinforcement. And you want to know what is so so surprising? My old methods didnt work, wow so crazy.... 
My girl had a stupid owner for months before I learned what worked. But ever since I did, me and her have a happy healthy relationship built on trust. She does what I want her to cause she can trust me to be happy with it when she gets it, and get a treat, not get hurt or put away when she doesnt get it right simply because she doesnt understand what I am trying to tell her. I am never going back to that, no matter what anyone says. Because I have learned from plenty of experience, it doesnt work and it doesnt make the pet or owner happy.

Thats all I am gonna say. 
I have been working with her every night now doing the trading and taking the advice. And yesterday for the first time, I grabbed her kong without having to trade, and pulled some sausage out of it to give it to her ( I had stuffed it too far and she couldnt get it) All she did was lay there, and watched, she was calm and didnt try to grab and move away. Thank everyone, sorry this thread started a debate. But I get it now and we are on the path to success.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

That's a great update, DogtorWho! Thanks for coming back and sharing.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

sassafras said:


> Paddi, you've demonstrated time and time again that you really don't understand the process that people here are even talking about or how/why it works.
> 
> I actually don't think the "training" the OP tried in that moment was useful or did anything. Because that's not the training moment. The training comes later, under separate circumstances. Resource guarding is a fear/anxiety based behavior - I'm afraid you're going to take my stuff away. Teach a dog that they don't have any reason to have that fear, and the behavior goes away. I'm not sure why you won't or can't grasp that very simple concept. Trading up, dropping higher and higher value items around a dog who already has something - that's teaching the dog.
> 
> ...


Well, I do understand it. I simply disagree with it. I don't know how many times I've seen on here where people can't think of something else "higher" to trade up for, because the behavior continues to exist through umpteen trade-ups. What are you going to offer up as "trade" when the dog growls at you for taking away a raw bone (after cheese and hotdogs and lord knows what else has failed)? Are you going to offer a live calf? I've read this scenario on this forum before....oops...now what???? I think strapping on labels hamstrings people from actually addressing the behavior. I don't care WHY a dog snarls or snaps at me, it is simply an unacceptable behavior. Depending up the dog and the owner, simple growling can be taken many ways.

Sassafras, the success you achieved may have more to do with you than the technique. As I tried to say, dogs read US. I'd say after two attempts at trading up and a person is still following that path, yet the dog isn't learning...the dog knows it is in charge. If the person ignores warning signs, the dog is happy to conclude their human is clueless. You asked that I tell you step by step about how the OP should have handled that particular situation? At THAT point...NOTHING. I agree with you, what she did was useless, and in my opinion, only resulted in upping the stress level of the dog at worse, and at best, simply confusing it. 

So in reading DogtorWho's last post, he/she made the revelation that he/she "did all that Cesar said" and he/she "spanked" her a lot. Really. I've never "spanked" my dogs. Never saw Cesar "spank" dogs. If he/she is mis-interpreting the word "submit" meaning physically spanking a dog, then it makes sense he/she is going to mis-use positive techniques. I'm glad he/she finds himself/herself on a better path now that he/she's not hitting the dog. Any path is better than that path.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

How would you "fix" resource guarding then, Paddi? Like, in general. If a dog snarled at you every time you came close to its food, what would you do?


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## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

PaddiB said:


> Well, I do understand it. I simply disagree with it. I don't know how many times I've seen on here where people can't think of something else "higher" to trade up for, because the behavior continues to exist through umpteen trade-ups. What are you going to offer up as "trade" when the dog growls at you for taking away a raw bone (after cheese and hotdogs and lord knows what else has failed)? Are you going to offer a live calf? I've read this scenario on this forum before....oops...now what???? I think strapping on labels hamstrings people from actually addressing the behavior. I don't care WHY a dog snarls or snaps at me, it is simply an unacceptable behavior. Depending up the dog and the owner, simple growling can be taken many ways.
> 
> Sassafras, the success you achieved may have more to do with you than the technique. As I tried to say, dogs read US. I'd say after two attempts at trading up and a person is still following that path, yet the dog isn't learning...the dog knows it is in charge. If the person ignores warning signs, the dog is happy to conclude their human is clueless. You asked that I tell you step by step about how the OP should have handled that particular situation? At THAT point...NOTHING. I agree with you, what she did was useless, and in my opinion, only resulted in upping the stress level of the dog at worse, and at best, simply confusing it.
> 
> So in reading DogtorWho's last post, he/she made the revelation that he/she "did all that Cesar said" and he/she "spanked" her a lot. Really. I've never "spanked" my dogs. Never saw Cesar "spank" dogs. If he/she is mis-interpreting the word "submit" meaning physically spanking a dog, then it makes sense he/she is going to mis-use positive techniques. I'm glad he/she finds himself/herself on a better path now that he/she's not hitting the dog. Any path is better than that path.


Youre right any path is better. And I didnt mean that spanking was the way to get the dog to "submit" I just mean, he rubbed of on me with his "negative reinforcement" and "dominance" and "punishment" techniques that I thought that was what you did to scold them, boy was I wrong. You actually dont really have to punish them at all, just give them a set of rules and show em how to follow. 
No I have never actually seen Cesar spank a dog, but he sure does jerk the hell out of em when they dont heel, and "bite" them with his hand. when he pushes them far enough that even biting the threat gives them no results they shut down. He perceives learned helplessness as "submission ". It isnt submission. I am not trying to target him, many trainers do this.

My dog is my child, not my employee..... Although now that I think about it even employees and bosses do the exact same thing, the employees work for the boss because the boss "trades" cash to get what he wants from the workers.....LOL


along with Crantastic and the others I would also like to know what you would do?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

*PaddiB* am still not sure you get it.... you can only work on reward base for so long (rewards are a training tool) and as you said many mistake the results of training tools as (trained) RG is not as simple as this example but the idea of teaching with motivation using reward apply's . You use a food lure position to manipulate a dogs body into a sit position, basic body mechanics. Once the dog learns the body position/paired with command, you no longer need the lure or reward they are responding to your direction and because they know it to do it on their own and "want to" They learned it by doing it with positive results to want to repeat it...

with RG the owner can teach one of two things by their approach,,,, Dig deeper or relax... I like the trade game because it teaches relax "nothing positive is learned teaching them to tense up more /dig deeper in learned anticipation) not only for the current situation but for all future situations in working with you or when you are present.) trade up is like a lure, relax, (let go) reward.. and like anything in training you shouldn't try to train over threshold, you still have to train smart. you have to get the body mechanics and the level of temperament you want to work with that is most productive for learning.. Relaxed. you need to be focusing developing the individual skills for the dog to do that they want to do it.. that the lure reward (training tools) are not needed... And you should be training all the time for it, with all kinds of levels of value... endless amounts of opportunities in any given day for (giving and giving back) Not waiting for an emergency situation then use a training tool just to get out of the situation for that moment...... Trading up is not a one hit wonder..... you still have to work towards having balanced total dog to work with..


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> Well, I do understand it. I simply disagree with it. I don't know how many times I've seen on here where people can't think of something else "higher" to trade up for, because the behavior continues to exist through umpteen trade-ups. What are you going to offer up as "trade" when the dog growls at you for taking away a raw bone (after cheese and hotdogs and lord knows what else has failed)? Are you going to offer a live calf? I've read this scenario on this forum before....oops...now what????


See, these questions show that you completely do NOT understand what we are saying. Trading up does not, NOT take place in the moment of guarding. By the time I am able to take a raw bone away from my dog, I no longer NEED to trade. Because I have taught my dog (via trading games and being trustworthy) that giving something to me isn't a negative thing at all. The training I've put in with trading games leads to being able to take things away without having to trade. 

You seem to think the trading is the end and what happens forever, it's not. Trading games are the means to TRAIN the dog so that later, when you need to, you can simply take something away (or give your cue like "drop" or "give" if you have one) without having to trade. Just like fading a lure or changing to an intermittent reward system, the trading goes away eventually. It's a means to an end, not an end in itself. 



> I think strapping on labels hamstrings people from actually addressing the behavior. I don't care WHY a dog snarls or snaps at me, it is simply an unacceptable behavior. Depending up the dog and the owner, simple growling can be taken many ways.


See, I very much care why a dog snarls or snaps at me. Knowing WHY a dog snarls or snaps puts me on the road to fixing the reason. I don't want the kind of relationship with my dog where I respond to growling from the bed by grabbing my dog and throwing them to the floor. I want the kind of relationship with my dog where I figure out that they are resource guarding, and teach an "off" command so I can tell them to get off the bed. Is it over in a few seconds? No, it takes time. But I don't need things to be fixed in a few seconds and I don't want the kind of relationship with my dogs that demands a few-second fix. I do activities with them where I very much need them to trust me (mushing, disc, agility, to name a few). I'm only going to get there by being predictably fair and trustworthy because some of the stuff I ask them to do is pretty weird from their perspective.



> Sassafras, the success you achieved may have more to do with you than the technique.


No, I assure you it had to do with the technique. It took a very long time to make progress. In the meantime we managed heavily. And now we are where we are. 



> So in reading DogtorWho's last post, he/she made the revelation that he/she "did all that Cesar said" and he/she "spanked" her a lot. Really. I've never "spanked" my dogs. Never saw Cesar "spank" dogs. If he/she is mis-interpreting the word "submit" meaning physically spanking a dog, then it makes sense he/she is going to mis-use positive techniques. I'm glad he/she finds himself/herself on a better path now that he/she's not hitting the dog. Any path is better than that path.


But grabbing a dog and throwing them off a bed is better than spanking? lolz


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## susielam570 (Dec 29, 2015)

sassafras said:


> PaddiB said:
> 
> 
> > So in reading DogtorWho's last post, he/she made the revelation that he/she "did all that Cesar said" and he/she "spanked" her a lot. Really. I've never "spanked" my dogs. Never saw Cesar "spank" dogs. If he/she is mis-interpreting the word "submit" meaning physically spanking a dog, then it makes sense he/she is going to mis-use positive techniques. I'm glad he/she finds himself/herself on a better path now that he/she's not hitting the dog. Any path is better than that path.
> ...


I *do* think that grabbing a dog by the scruff and 'throwing' (which I'm sure was actually more like just yanking it off the bed) it off the bed is better than 'spanking'. No one 'spanks' dogs, so that must translate into hitting/beating.

I have seen Cesar Millan bully dogs that didn't deserve it. I've seen him be too rough with dogs, but I've never seen him HIT dogs, with the exception of trying to get a dog to release him while being attacked. I do not advocate all of the things Cesar does, but I've seen him do some really powerful things with just body language and timing. I've also seen him be very gentle and soothing to dogs. Therefore yes, I do find it annoying when I see people say things like "I used Cesar's methods. I choked and beat my dog every day. It only made him worse!"

I'm really happy that the owner here learned better methods of teaching their dog. It's shameful that people watch shows, like Cesar's shows, and what they take away from it is advocacy to abuse their dogs. Things like that DO make me think that the Cesar shows that 'make good TV' shouldn't be viewed by the general public.

I hope the OP is making progress in their journey with their dog friend. I'm glad they found this forum to help sort through the myriad of ways to train a dog.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

susielam570 said:


> I *do* think that grabbing a dog by the scruff and 'throwing' (which I'm sure was actually more like just yanking it off the bed) it off the bed is better than 'spanking'.


I don't think either one is an appropriate approach to resource guarding or teaches a dog a single thing other than to be afraid of you.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I still want to know how PaddiB would "fix" a dog that resource guards. Grabbing a dog and throwing it off the bed might have gotten the desired results in that one case, but what if it hadn't? What if the dog had continued to guard the bed? 

What would Paddi do with a dog that guarded its food every time a person got close?


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## susielam570 (Dec 29, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> I still want to know how PaddiB would "fix" a dog that resource guards. Grabbing a dog and throwing it off the bed might have gotten the desired results in that one case, but what if it hadn't? What if the dog had continued to guard the bed?
> 
> What would Paddi do with a dog that guarded its food every time a person got close?


I don't know, but I'm curious as well. How I would handle resource guarding really depends on the dog. I don't believe it's necessary to turn it into a big fight though. One can usually claim a resource in a calm way, then reward when the dog relaxes. It also really helps to teach commands like 'drop it'. I usually incorporate this into a game if possible. It's good to teach a dog to move out of your space, just using body language, on a regular basis.

I will add this: Very few things are 'quick fixes'. Most problems to be solved are a process over time. Usually there IS a point where the dog 'gets it'. It's cool to see that happen.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Do you think that "claiming a resource in a calm way" and then rewarding when the dog relaxes is better than the trading game? Why or why not?

Personally, I'd rather use the trading game to prevent guarding in the first place. My AKK has never guarded from me because when he was a pup, I'd hand-feed him sometimes, or I'd walk by his bowl when he was eating and drop some extra kibble in, or I'd trade him a tasty treat for the old chew he had. He grew up knowing that me approaching his valued items was a good thing because there was a _chance_ he'd get something extra or better. I've never had to react to a growling/guarding incident because it's never happened, because I prevented the frame of mind that would even lead to him growling at me. In an emergency situation, I can take (for example) cooked chicken bones he grabbed off the street right from his mouth without having to trade anything, because he trusts me.

I don't understand what anyone could have against an easy game that prevents a difficult situation from occurring in the first place (AND has been proven time and time again to not just manage, but fix resource guarding if it already exists), which is why Paddi's posts are so baffling to me.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I see it as the same thing... Crantastic


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> Do you think that "claiming a resource in a calm way" and then rewarding when the dog relaxes is better than the trading game? Why or why not?
> 
> Personally, I'd rather use the trading game to prevent guarding in the first place. My AKK has never guarded from me because when he was a pup, I'd hand-feed him sometimes, or I'd walk by his bowl when he was eating and drop some extra kibble in, or I'd trade him a tasty treat for the old chew he had. He grew up knowing that me approaching his valued items was a good thing because there was a _chance_ he'd get something extra or better. I've never had to react to a growling/guarding incident because it's never happened, because I prevented the frame of mind that would even lead to him growling at me. In an emergency situation, I can take (for example) cooked chicken bones he grabbed off the street right from his mouth without having to trade anything, because he trusts me.
> 
> I don't understand what anyone could have against an easy game that prevents a difficult situation from occurring in the first place (AND has been proven time and time again to not just manage, but fix resource guarding if it already exists), which is why Paddi's posts are so baffling to me.


While I agree that Paddi's posts are baffling & obscure (at best) I must say that you actually don't *know* if you've prevented your dog from showing RG tendencies with your techniques, or if your dog just wasn't one to be 'guardy' in the first place, naturally. Some dogs just guard more than others. Period. They can be "raised right" and still end up being a bit on the serious end of the RG spectrum. HOW an owner deals with problems that crop up - well, that's where it comes down to technique & "games" to solve the issue. 

Plus, you have to take into consideration the vast differences from a dog that one person has raised from puppyhood, to one that has been adopted (history a mystery & resulting baggage unknown...) and after the fact shows guarding tendencies. Nature? Nurture? Nope (IMO) - but a combination of both.

As far as 'working' on the 'issue' - YES, I totally agree with proceeding forward to make the dog comfortable & accepting of a human (rudely, if truth be told) taking away some treasured object via the 'trading' game, but if we are honest with ourselves, sometimes we have absolutely no idea WHY one dog guards & the next one doesn't. I have impulsively pulled objects out of the mouth of a shelter dog (OK, if I went back & logically re-evaluated the situation I might have treated it differently, but in the heat of the moment....) and not been bitten, even though I had no 'long standing relationship of trust' with that particular dog. Was it the *way* I approached the dog? The dog's base temperament? or just pure dumb luck? Who knows... 

I realize I'm rambling at this point, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that RG is a VERY complex issue with no clear lines. Once a dog shows RG tendencies, then I totally advocate working on a protocol based on building trust, but to say one can definitely *prevent* such things by following steps A - B - C ? I'm a little more reluctant to say "Yes, definitely".


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Is there harm in taking the steps I did to get my dog comfortable with me being around his food? No, none at all. Maybe he never would have guarded in the first place, maybe he would have (I lean toward thinking he would; he is not a trusting dog by nature), but going through those steps cost me nothing but a tiny amount of time and may have prevented RGing.

And whether or not it prevents guarding, the trading game works to stop it, anyway. It involves no force and no easy-to-mess-up techniques. Even if for some reason it doesn't work, there will be no fallout. There's no downside to the trading game.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Absolutely not! No harm at all, what so ever. I'm agreeing with you that the 'trading game' has NO fall out & can be used to combat RG issues already in place. Nope - no downside. 

I guess I just wanted to address the mind set of "Well, I've never played the *trading game* and MY dogs never guarded..." Which could be chalked up to a dog never being predisposed to guarding in the first place, not necessarily what was (or was not) done, and the individual dog's experiences/tendencies.

There are just so many people who's entire experience dealing with/training dogs revolves around a handful (at most) and then they decide that what they have - or have not - experienced is 'the norm', when quite the opposite is, in fact, the stark reality. (Not you, per se, but just rambling at the general dog-owning population here!)


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

BKaymuttleycrew said:


> Absolutely not! No harm at all, what so ever. I'm agreeing with you that the 'trading game' has NO fall out & can be used to combat RG issues already in place. Nope - no downside.
> 
> I guess I just wanted to address the mind set of "Well, I've never played the *trading game* and MY dogs never guarded..." Which could be chalked up to a dog never being predisposed to guarding in the first place, not necessarily what was (or was not) done, and the individual dog's experiences/tendencies.
> 
> There are just so many people who's entire experience dealing with/training dogs revolves around a handful (at most) and then they decide that what they have - or have not - experienced is 'the norm', when quite the opposite is, in fact, the stark reality. (Not you, per se, but just rambling at the general dog-owning population here!)


I agree with what you've said. I've lived with 3 adult dogs that never had any formal training, let alone RG preventative training and don't have RG issues. The 1 dog I had since a pup and went through all the positive RG preventative training protocol for a long time along with a solid foundation of drop it, leave it still developed a case of resource guarding. With that being said, I have noticed something that allows RG to surface with this particular dog - stress and weak nerves. The day after he showed resource guarding over a chew, I immediately tested him for RG for a week over bowls of kibble, raw meat, chews, etc. and there were none, go figure. How I figured it was stress and weak nerves is because the dog always had weak nerves and the only difference is that I gave him some calming treats (composure pro) the day after he growled and his whole demeanor was different even when eating a chew in close proximity with other dogs with me bugging him and asking for drop it and leave its.


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## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

Nova is not a trusting dog in general. She has always been scared, and cautious and skittish and reserved about EVERYTHING, she is not the slightest bit confident. Just today she was looking out the window, and touched the blinds trying to flip them up for a better view and when she let them go, they tapped on the window, just a tap, and she put her tail down and flinched every single time they made a noise. And then tonight we were playing with a squeaky ball and I guess the way that I started squeaking it was freaky. Then during play with that squeaky toy, she saw her reflection in my terrerium and got scared.
Even though we work on confidence building and desensitization stuff (dont know if theres a single term for it), I think she will just always be a little scared of things.

Could this personality have anything to do with the RG? Just curious.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

DogtorWho15 said:


> Nova is not a trusting dog in general. She has always been scared, and cautious and skittish and reserved about EVERYTHING, she is not the slightest bit confident. Just today she was looking out the window, and touched the blinds trying to flip them up for a better view and when she let them go, they tapped on the window, just a tap, and she put her tail down and flinched every single time they made a noise. And then tonight we were playing with a squeaky ball and I guess the way that I started squeaking it was freaky. Then during play with that squeaky toy, she saw her reflection in my terrerium and got scared.
> Even though we work on confidence building and desensitization stuff (dont know if theres a single term for it), I think she will just always be a little scared of things.
> 
> Could this personality have anything to do with the RG? Just curious.


I believe there is a higher chance of RG with nervous, fearful, insecure personalities. How is her progress by the way?


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## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

Hector4 said:


> I believe there is a higher chance of RG with nervous, fearful, insecure personalities. How is her progress by the way?


It makes sense....
I dont know if you meant with the RG or the fear so I will just update on both lol! 
The RG definitely has made some progress, she let me near her carrot last night. She was watching me closely but never warned me, it is still there obviously but it is getting better, and she is starting to see me be near her things as good, and can trust me. She isnt possessive of her food at all, it seems to just be high value treats and some toys when she isnt in a playing mood. But then on the other hand she will bring not only her toys to me to play, but has started bringing me her chews for me to hold, on rare occasion that is (I guess cause I can hold them in place better than her while she chews idk) She picks up on things quickly and is super smart so we are making progress much quicker than I expected with this. Couldnt be happier thank you! 

With the fear there is progress there too, not as much but this is gonna take longer than the RG. She walks up to people now and sniffs and lets them touch her a little AFTER sniffing them and exploring them to make sure theyre alright for like 10 mins lol. But the people love her eyes so much they will wait as long as it takes just to pet her which is great for her. Before she wouldnt go near people, and I always had to tell people "no talk, no touch, no eye contact". So this is good  Sounds still freak her out quite a bit though, she will be totally fine with some things and awful with others. Windy days suck....
I was doing things the other day that required me to be in and out of the door A LOT so the door constantly closing and opening scared her even.... But she doesnt have a fear of doors after that so thats a plus lol. The little things scare her. It doesnt help though that her eyesight is awful! I really wanna get her an eye test. People who have babysat her have asked me if she was half blind, she isnt she just cant see well, I do think she will go blind at an early age though considering how bad her eyes are already  I really wanna get her as confident as possible Before she gets old just in case that happens though.

So, thats how our training is going  I can go on and on but I think I have rambled enough for now lol. Thanks for asking!

P.S. When I said she brings me her toys to play, I didnt mean she JUST started doing that, she always does this. What I meant was, when she takes a break from playing she will take her toy into her crate with her and at this time she doesnt want me touching the toy, she just wants to take a breather with it.  which I have no problem with.


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## susielam570 (Dec 29, 2015)

Crantastic said:


> Do you think that "claiming a resource in a calm way" and then rewarding when the dog relaxes is better than the trading game? Why or why not?
> 
> Personally, I'd rather use the trading game to prevent guarding in the first place.


I would use the claiming exercise first, then switch to the trading game if the dog didn't react well to claiming. The main reason is that, if the dog reacts well to claiming, it's a faster process and teaches authority without being nasty. I use both though. When I've worked with dogs in the past, I usually trade off, again depending on the dog. Safety first.

I also agree that the trading game does not, necessarily, preventing RG issues as the dog matures, but done correctly there is no harm in it. I remember working with a gal, a long time ago, who had a feisty terrier and she did not do well with the trading game because she would get scared and drop the 'upgrade' when her dog growled at her. She ended up reinforcing the bad behavior. I had to switch her to discipline exercises and keeping the dog on leash for a while. Fortunately, she felt more confident in that situation and was able to work through it.

That was a flaw in the owner, not the process, but you have to work with what you have.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Hector4 said:


> I believe there is a higher chance of RG with nervous, fearful, insecure personalities. How is her progress by the way?


I do, too. Really confident dogs rarely have anxiety based behaviors IMO/IME.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I do, too. Really confident dogs rarely have anxiety based behaviors IMO/IME.


agree (there are also breed traits that it is more likely to be a natural instinct)


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> agree (there are also breed traits that it is more likely to be a natural instinct)


That too, such as Tibetan Mastiffs. I have read a lot about those dogs having RG issues whether they are pups or adults ranging from basic food guarding to the extreme end where they guard everything including a sock on the ground, a bed they're not laying on, space, other dogs, etc.


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I do, too. Really confident dogs rarely have anxiety based behaviors IMO/IME.


In my experience it didn't become an issue with a confident dog with resource guarding over food against me. All I had to do was show them I wasn't there to take their food and did a few trade games and the problem went away - it was that easy, crazy.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

susielam570 said:


> I would use the claiming exercise first, then switch to the trading game if the dog didn't react well to claiming. The main reason is that, if the dog reacts well to claiming, it's a faster process and teaches authority without being nasty.


Why is "authority" over the dog important to you?



> I also agree that the trading game does not, necessarily, preventing RG issues as the dog matures, but done correctly there is no harm in it. I remember working with a gal, a long time ago, who had a feisty terrier and she did not do well with the trading game because she would get scared and drop the 'upgrade' when her dog growled at her. She ended up reinforcing the bad behavior. I had to switch her to discipline exercises and keeping the dog on leash for a while.


I think that when the dog is already growling, the owner is moving too fast/the thing they're trying to trade for is too high in value. The object of the game is for the dog to be comfortable the entire time. I would not switch to "discipline exercises" (what does that mean, anyway?), but I'd restart the trading process with lower-value items and wouldn't get so close to the dog.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

susielam570 said:


> I would use the claiming exercise first, then switch to the trading game if the dog didn't react well to claiming. The main reason is that, if the dog reacts well to claiming, it's a faster process and teaches authority without being nasty. I use both though. When I've worked with dogs in the past, I usually trade off, again depending on the dog. Safety first.
> 
> I also agree that the trading game does not, necessarily, preventing RG issues as the dog matures, but done correctly there is no harm in it. I remember working with a gal, a long time ago, who had a feisty terrier and she did not do well with the trading game because she would get scared and drop the 'upgrade' when her dog growled at her. She ended up reinforcing the bad behavior. I had to switch her to discipline exercises and keeping the dog on leash for a while. Fortunately, she felt more confident in that situation and was able to work through it.
> 
> That was a flaw in the owner, not the process, but you have to work with what you have.


My concern/issue with "calmly claiming" is that first, it doesn't make a lot of sense to a dog. If a dog picks up an item like discarded chicken bones off the ground on a walk, there is no pre-existing concept of "this isn't mine, this is my human's object" and really no reason in the dog's mind that chicken bones are any different than say, a stick on the ground which human is fine with them having. 
The second part is that while being calm is good because upset is rarely good, you're still TAKING something from the dog that the dog would rather not give you. If he doesn't give up the item, then where do you go from there? You either just plain take it away if its an immediate safety risk, or you take a step back and teach that guarding isn't necessary by working with other objects at other times and build the trust. If the dog does give up the item, what has he learned? That his human may just take something of HIS (possession being 9/10ths of doggie law) and there is nothing in it for him, no benefit to cooperation. Then you've potentially created a resource guarder where you might not have had one before. 

So, since trading games work for training; why not start there? Again, dangerous object, just get it away as safely as possible, I'm talking about stuff like a dog guarding a treat which is safe but just might upset his tummy if he eats the whole thing etc.

Even when a dog will easily give up a high value object, I like to reinforce that willingness. I've given Chester raw meaty bones to chew and then realized for some reason or another, he couldn't have it then (say, he's eating it outside and bad weather comes rolling in). The fact that I can reach to him and take away a chunk of beef is a major show of trust on his part, so I don't want to ruin that. I take the bone away, pop it in the fridge and pull out a hunk of cheese for him. (Or similar) 
Since I walk around the dogs while they eat as I get ready for work, sometimes I drop a piece of fish or meat into their bowls.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

feel this it's making it confusing of what is actual RG and not RG.... A dog that is calm and can give what they have and then given a reward is not RG.. it is in it's own way reinforcing the same idea of the trading game... you give and you get rewarded.

that is why I felt it is the same...

But when it is describe as physically taking from a dog that is not the same as a dog that is giving it to you. Your leaving a door open for the dog to self learn to anticipate you taking and being ready not to let you take it the next time or in the future.. So why not teach the dog in that moment to give on their own instead so there is no miss learning in the wrong direction...


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