# Dog bit my 5 year old!!!



## renjbaker (Oct 7, 2013)

Help! My 4 month old golden/cocker spaniel just bit my 5 year old son! I was putting away groceries in the kitchen and my 5 year old son (in the kitchen area as well) was just standing near the dog while it was eating out of a ball.... one where you add the food to it and the dog pats it around to get the food out. I didn't see the whole incident, but my son said he was just standing there. He didn't pet the dog or touch the food. The dog grabbed his arm, put 2 holes in his shirt, and my son's arm looks bruised and scratched w/ blood. Right after it happened I went to the dog who had layed his body and head down (I think he knew it was wrong) and I put him in submission hold and then in his crate.

I then cleaned the wound which even a large bandaid wouldn't cover, had to cover it with a large bandadge cloth.

This really scares me! He normally really loves people and it looks like it was food aggression. Just thankful he bit my son and not another child that was visiting.

What do I do about this?? I will NOT keep a dog that bites people.. I don't care if he was protecting his food or not. Please help! Thanks


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

renjbaker said:


> Help! My 4 month old golden/cocker spaniel just bit my 5 year old son! I was putting away groceries in the kitchen and my 5 year old son (in the kitchen area as well) was just standing near the dog while it was eating out of a ball.... one where you add the food to it and the dog pats it around to get the food out. I didn't see the whole incident, but my son said he was just standing there. He didn't pet the dog or touch the food. The dog grabbed his arm, put 2 holes in his shirt, and my son's arm looks bruised and scratched w/ blood. Right after it happened I went to the dog who had layed his body and head down (I think he knew it was wrong) and I put him in submission hold and then in his crate.
> 
> I then cleaned the wound which even a large bandaid wouldn't cover, had to cover it with a large bandadge cloth.
> 
> ...


 I totally agree and would not keep a dog that bites people, especially family members who live in the same home.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

renjbaker said:


> Help! My 4 month old golden/cocker spaniel just bit my 5 year old son! I was putting away groceries in the kitchen and my 5 year old son (in the kitchen area as well) was just standing near the dog while it was eating out of a ball.... one where you add the food to it and the dog pats it around to get the food out. I didn't see the whole incident, but my son said he was just standing there. He didn't pet the dog or touch the food. The dog grabbed his arm, put 2 holes in his shirt, and my son's arm looks bruised and scratched w/ blood. Right after it happened I went to the dog who had layed his body and head down (I think he knew it was wrong) and I put him in submission hold and then in his crate.
> 
> I then cleaned the wound which even a large bandaid wouldn't cover, had to cover it with a large bandadge cloth.
> 
> ...


First, I'm very sorry that your son got hurt, but glad to hear that it was relatively minor (he didn't need to go to the hospital or anything).

That said, I'm not really sure what you're looking for here. You ask what to do, but then say you wont keep a dog that bites, and don't care why the dog did it. 

Any animal with teeth will bite under certain circumstances, it's possible your son may have done something he didn't realize he was doing at the time. I've never known kids to stand perfectly still, especially 5 year olds. 

The reality is that it is very difficult to rehome a dog that has bitten a child, and the dog will most likely be put down. Obviously it's entirely up to you what to do (although it sounds like you already made up your mind). If you're interested in help/suggestions to prevent this from happening again, people here can certainly help with that. If you're interested in rehoming the dog, I'm sure there are people who could offer suggestions for that as well.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Put a stop to all 'submission-hold', dominance training, whatever you are doing straightaway. Immediately. Any alpha-crap is a very good way to wind up with a fearful and insecure fear-biter. Out of curiosity, has this dog been disciplined for any behaviour toward the child in the past? This type of behaviour (where medical conditions have been ruled out) is extremely, extremely unusual in dogs that have had only positive experiences in the past with children. Even common but ill-advised stuff like trying to place your child as an 'alpha' to the dog encourages a lot of fear and insecurity toward children in the dog. In fact, I would advise against any positive punishment where the kid is involved; the only thing this does to the dog is presenting the child as 'that kid that makes my owners angry at me'. 

Seeing that the dog is only 4 months old, I think a good remainder of the problem can be attributed to the fact that he is not fully socialized and doesn't realize the power of his bite. And knowing kids, I would not buy the whole story from your son; it's very natural for a child to recall himself 'just standing there': He's already probably shaken up by the whole thing and did not want to get into any more trouble! It's quite possible that he may have been doing something in poor judgement (I mean hey, he's a 5 year old, not Steve Irwin) such as picking up a treat and teasing the dog with it, approaching the ball despite warnings from the dog (not all warnings come out as growls) etc. It may have not even been resource guarding at all: Puppies have little concept of 'bite inhibition' and can get whipped up and deliver a pretty brutal chomp in good fun.

Til everything is worked out, the first course of action is probably not to have son+food+dog in the same room without direct supervision. *Secondly, get in touch with a certified animal behaviourist or trainer that uses positive dog-training methods* (training that does not involve punishment or fear). You may also want to bring the incident up to the vet for a thyroid test. *From all I have read, it really doesn't sound like you have a vicious animal.* But a behaviourist or experienced trainer will be able to tell what is setting the dog off and then choose an appropriate course of action (which in this case will most-likely involve desensitizing the dog to the presence of people around food / toys using treats and encouragement for good behaviour).

I would also recommend that you check out the links in my signature for more information from the ASPCA and other animal behaviour authorities for a full rundown on ways that you might unknowingly be encouraging aggression in the dog.

ETA: Linking in signatures must be turned off. Check them out here:

The Dominance Controversy​ 
My Dog Behavior Bible:

ASPCA Dog Behaviorist
​


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

At 4 months I don't think this was aggression. I suppose there's an off chance it was but I'm inclined to think it was puppy mouthiness. 

If you think it was food guarding, there are ways to desensitize a dog to having people around his food. Unfortunately, with the "submission hold" thing, you've taught him that he does need to guard his food from those mean humans, but I think he's young enough that the damage can be undone.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I totally agree and would not keep a dog that bites people, especially family members who live in the same home.


This was a four month old PUPPY. Puppies nip and bite and it typically is not a sign of aggression nor a sign of things to come. This is a baby, and he is still learning. Sadly this was more than likely just a lack of supervision and an excited puppy. 

If the puppy shows any other signs of resource guarding (if that is what this even was), there are ways to work with him. However, he is probably now scared and will likely be even more on guard after grabbing him and putting him into a "submission hold". 

I just don't understand why people think reacting with aggression will ever help a situation where the dog displayed an unwanted behavior.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

renjbaker said:


> Help! My 4 month old golden/cocker spaniel just bit my 5 year old son! I was putting away groceries in the kitchen and my 5 year old son (in the kitchen area as well) was just standing near the dog while it was eating out of a ball.... one where you add the food to it and the dog pats it around to get the food out. *I didn't see the whole incident,* but *my son said he was just standing there. He didn't pet the dog or touch the food.* The dog grabbed his arm, put 2 holes in his shirt, and my son's arm looks bruised and scratched w/ blood. Right after it happened I went to the dog who had layed his body and head down* (I think he knew it was wrong)* and *I put him in submission hold and then in his crate.*
> 
> I then cleaned the wound which even a large bandaid wouldn't cover, had to cover it with a large bandadge cloth.
> 
> ...


The things in bold are all the things that are wrong. Sorry, but it's likely your kid is lying. If he did not touch the dog, how did the punctures end up in his sleeve? Is this a mega puppy or something?

1: Watch your child better when the dog is in the room. Supervision is key with children and puppies.
2: Don't 'put him in submission'. Dog -> human dominance is not real and there is no reason for you to hurt your puppy. And using the crate as pnishment will teach him to dislike the crate.
3: This was either resource guarding (which can be worked with) or a puppy being mouthy. Since you did not see the incident, you cannot know what happened.

From now on, I would teach the child not to bother the dog when he's trying to eat or chew on something. Supervise them better.


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## renjbaker (Oct 7, 2013)

I posted this and asked for help very soon after this incident happened and my emotions were running high. I would NEVER put him down for what he did and honestly my husband and kids love him very much. I was looking for training ideas. I reposted as well already stating that he was afraid to tell me, but he did pet the dog when he was eating. I know some have said to just tell the kids not to pet him when he's eating and that does make sense, but I think he needs to learn that we can do that and it should be OK.


ireth0 said:


> First, I'm very sorry that your son got hurt, but glad to hear that it was relatively minor (he didn't need to go to the hospital or anything).
> 
> That said, I'm not really sure what you're looking for here. You ask what to do, but then say you wont keep a dog that bites, and don't care why the dog did it.
> 
> ...


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## renjbaker (Oct 7, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> The things in bold are all the things that are wrong. Sorry, but it's likely your kid is lying. If he did not touch the dog, how did the punctures end up in his sleeve? Is this a mega puppy or something?
> 
> 1: Watch your child better when the dog is in the room. Supervision is key with children and puppies.
> 2: Don't 'put him in submission'. Dog -> human dominance is not real and there is no reason for you to hurt your puppy. And using the crate as pnishment will teach him to dislike the crate.
> ...


Yes, my kid was not telling the truth (already posted this earlier). He thought he would get in trouble. As far as watching the kid better.... um, he was in the same room as me and my back was turned. Don't think I could have done much more. In real life I can't have my eye on my 3 kids at every moment so I am definitely going to train my dog to be OK with others being around him or petting him when he eats. Pretty sure he was guarding his food.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

kelly528 said:


> *Secondly, get in touch with a certified animal behaviourist or trainer that uses positive dog-training methods*


Just seconding this advice. I mean, you can do some research and ask for opinions here to apprise yourself of some basic fundamental principles, but at the end of the day I think a first-hand personal evaluation of dog + handler (+ family) is best. They can discuss details and observe the interaction, then set you on a specific course for prevention / improvement / peace of mind. 

And I do agree that a certain amount of leeway should be given to a young pup, it's probably not as bad an issue as you might think it is. Totally different if this were an established, mature dog.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

renjbaker said:


> Yes, my kid was not telling the truth (already posted this earlier). He thought he would get in trouble. As far as watching the kid better.... um, he was in the same room as me and my back was turned. Don't think I could have done much more. In real life I can't have my eye on my 3 kids at every moment so I am definitely going to train my dog to be OK with others being around him or petting him when he eats. Pretty sure he was guarding his food.


Resource guarding is pretty easily managed. Definitely get in contact with a positive reinforcement behaviorist.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

renjbaker said:


> Yes, my kid was not telling the truth (already posted this earlier). He thought he would get in trouble. As far as watching the kid better.... um, he was in the same room as me and my back was turned. Don't think I could have done much more. In real life I can't have my eye on my 3 kids at every moment so I am definitely going to train my dog to be OK with others being around him or petting him when he eats. Pretty sure he was guarding his food.


The difficulty that you face (depending on the age of the kid) is that while dogs (especially ones from non-abusive backgrounds) don't really snap spontaneously, as you have learned. They give signs of stress, not always growling; some that look deceptively like he's doing fine (tail-wagging, smiling and panting with tongue hanging out, etc). Now for an adult, it's easy to read these indicators in a dog and know when to back off. For a five-year old, though… well, he's not a dog whisperer! Naturally, a lot of family pets simply learn to tolerate a lot of crap from kids (with a few nips and growls along the way) while the parents just fly by the seat of their pants training-wise. This is especially the case for the more 'thick-skinned' breeds like sporting dogs. But on this forum (not totally sure of the rules) *it would probably be a liability for us to advise you to go at this by yourself because, well… you would have to use your kids to train him, and that could result in another bite!*

My mother had the same issue with our puppy, a pom, when I was younger (at one point she actually admitted to being afraid of him). He was choppy when he was happy, chompy when he was scared, chompy chompy chompy. It was actually his trainer for puppy obedience that talked my mom through it, and my brother and I as well. We definitely got a crash-course in respecting our new little brother! Honestly, a lot of it was compromise; we as kids needed to get it through our heads that Toby was not the ideal candidate for any sort of teasing, rough-housing, fingers in the face, etc. He would just get very wound up. We had to learn too to examine our behaviour if we did something to upset him, and give him space when he needed it. And true to the trainer's word, he grew into a really great dog. Not through intimidation or alpha-rolling or shaming; simply by teaching the kids in the house how to respect the animal. So I would strongly recommend getting in touch with a trainer that uses positive training methods, and toting your kids along.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Read about resource guarding (there are links in your other post), and, as others have suggested find a certified animal behaviorist or trainer that uses positive dog-training methods. Here are some associations that can help you find someone:
Pet Professional Guild
International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC)
Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists: Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior
American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior
Council for Certification of Pet Dog Trainers



renjbaker said:


> Yes, my kid was not telling the truth (already posted this earlier). He thought he would get in trouble. As far as watching the kid better.... um, he was in the same room as me and my back was turned. Don't think I could have done much more. In real life I can't have my eye on my 3 kids at every moment so I am definitely going to train my dog to be OK with others being around him or petting him when he eats. Pretty sure he was guarding his food.


In addition to working with your dog, you need to work with your kids. They need to know not to bother the dog while he eats; if they can't do that, then feed your dog in his crate or use gates/doors to physically separate them. You need to watch your kids when they are around the dog. You'll need to learn stress signals so that you can intervene before your dog feels the need to escalate.

This is a nice video about dog body language: Dog Body Language and an article with links at the end: Does Your Dog REALLY Want to be Petted?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Read about resource guarding (there are links in your other post), and, as others have suggested find a certified animal behaviorist or trainer that uses positive dog-training methods. Here are some associations that can help you find someone:
> Pet Professional Guild
> International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants (IAABC)
> Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists: Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior
> ...


Seconding this. The dog shouldn't have to deal with being bothered when he's eating, so just teach your kids to leave him in peace. 

If someone was pestering me while I was trying to eat I would get a bit testy too.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

renjbaker said:


> Yes, my kid was not telling the truth (already posted this earlier). He thought he would get in trouble. As far as watching the kid better.... um, he was in the same room as me and my back was turned. Don't think I could have done much more. In real life I can't have my eye on my 3 kids at every moment so I am definitely going to train my dog to be OK with others being around him or petting him when he eats. Pretty sure he was guarding his food.


 actually you could've just put the puppy in the crate with his food ball, thus eliminating what happened to your son. so yes you could've done much more.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

IMHO, a resource guarding dog does not belong in a home with kids. I think it's just an accident waiting to happen. 

But, if you want to work with this dog, then you need to feed the dog in a crate and don't allow any high value objects in the home while there are children present. 

Resource guarding is something that can quickly escalate and it cannot be trained out. It can only be managed. And by manage, I mean you keep the kids and the dogs separate while food or high value toys or treats are around. 

The more I see these posts, the more thankful I am that I have the good temperament that I do. 

I have a 22 month old son and he can take bones and food and toys away from my dogs and they don't think anything of it. It wouldn't occur to me to have to keep an eye on them for that reason. The most I have to worry about is my dogs being too tolerant because they just love attention from the baby.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think resource guarding can be trained out. I mean, when I first got my Rott he growled whenever I went near his food bowl. I did the desenstizing protocol (tossing food in whenever I went by, etc.) and now he wags his tail in happy anticipation if I go near his food dish. If that's not "trained out" I don't know what is. Resource guarding is fear that someone is going to take their stuff. Any dog can be turned into a resource guarder by improper handling (like, ya know, people taking their stuff . or, in my Rott's case, his first owner thought it was funny to tease him while he was eating), and I think almost any dog can learn to trust that they don't have to be scared of that.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

RG absolutely can be worked with, and in a home with children, but not if the adults aren't willing to put in the effort and supervision for it.
The child has to be taught as much as the dog does. That is an invaluable lesson for the child: don't bother a dog while it's eating, don't bother a dog while it's sleeping, don't take a dog's toys. At some point in their life, that lesson will keep them from getting torn up by a resource guarder.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

I've found resource guarding to be VERY workable in most dogs. It's a little alarming that this pup is so young, I admit, but I don't find RGing to be an unworkable behavior in general at all. It depends on the dog of course and their motivations, but most can be taught that their food is safe and an approaching human means good things. And I know of many RGers who were successfully retrained. 

I do think people need to consider whether a home with children is going to be able to provide the consistency needed for an RGing dog while keeping everyone safe during training. A realistic view on the safety level of the children (and dog) is a must, so I'm not suggesting it's not a consideration. But to say it can never be trained has not been my experience at all.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

I haven't had that experience, ie that it can be trained out. 

My experience was that it can be managed by removing high value items and crate feeding. 

Resource guarding can and does escalate quickly. It might start at one high value item, but then it could spread to a person, or a favorite spot on the couch. And if a dog has no bite inhibition, you have a serious problem in conjunction with resource guarding.

I do not think this is a good situation for either the kids or the dog.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> I haven't had that experience, ie that it can be trained out.
> 
> My experience was that it can be managed by removing high value items and crate feeding.
> 
> ...


We've had plenty of dogs at the shelter that have had RG issues that we've helped them work on and I've seen the improvement first hand.

IMO it isn't a deal breaker and can be improved (if not fixed entirely) in most cases. Of course, the OP is the only one that can decide what's the appropriate course of action for them and their family.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

OP, did you follow the advice you were given in this post: food aggression ?


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> We've had plenty of dogs at the shelter that have had RG issues that we've helped them work on and I've seen the improvement first hand.


Second this! I've seen dogs go to full RG to being fine with stranger's hands in/near their food in one week with consistent work (albeit, lots of it from lots of different people). Personally, I think RGing is actually one of the easiest issues to work with, and if you're using positive methods, its one of the hardest things to screw up while you're working on it, IMO.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

cookieface said:


> OP, did you follow the advice you were given in this post: food aggression ?


Granted the way things turned out, I'm thinking the only advice she took from that thread was her own.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Not much to add here, since others have given good advice about RG. 
But I wanted to throw in that my dog also used to be a pretty serious food guarder. Even as a puppy he growled whenever people approached him as he was eating, and god forbid if it was a raw bone. Even when I solved it within our family, he surprised me one day when he was outside gnawing on a giant bone (I was sitting with him with no issue) and he LUNGED and snarled at a passing stranger who showed no inclination of even coming toward us. That was when I knew I had to work beyond the scope of immediate friends and family. 
Now, he will let people come and go as they please when he is eating (even high value items like raw bones), even letting them step right near him and pet him. He will also let dogs pass very close to him if they have enough dog manners to know not to try and instigate anything at that time. But he is still not 'happy' about being bothered when eating. He will look up to see if I have anything better, and haven't heard him growl over food toward anybody in years. He is not necessarily wary about it anymore, but he will always be a dog that is serious about his food and I respect that. 

It has taken a LOT of work to reverse this issue. And even now, 7 years down the line with all of this progress and enough obedience that I can get him to step away from any food, I STILL do these things:
-occasionally reward him with higher value food when he is eating something high value
-make sure no one is trying to interact with him when he is eating. (or reward with super high value food when he lets people interact with him when he is eating)
-put him in a low/no traffic area if there are a lot of other dogs or people around


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Canyx said:


> It has taken a LOT of work to reverse this issue. And even now, 7 years down the line with all of this progress and enough obedience that I can get him to step away from any food, I STILL do these things:
> -occasionally reward him with higher value food when he is eating something high value
> -make sure no one is trying to interact with him when he is eating. (or reward with super high value food when he lets people interact with him when he is eating)
> -put him in a low/no traffic area if there are a lot of other dogs or people around


Even for dogs without RG problems I consider this good even essential practice. Our family's and therefore my rules come down to:

-Peace and quiet at dinner time.
-If you don't need it, _don't take it._
-If you do need it, _ask first._
-If you have something to trade (a treat, a play, another toy or at least praise), _trade it._

I won't act high and mighty, I actually steal Lexy's food every afternoon after her walk. Just grab it out of her bowl, to load it into her treat ball. And she tolerates it really well: I make a point of asking her to leave it. No pushing, no shoving, no grabbing. I leave a handful of food (dogs really have no way of telling how much you took unless you took it all). And for her co-operation, she gets a toy she enjoys. No fuss, no muss out of her. But aside from this I think dogs should only _have_ to relinquish something for practice, or because it's dangerous (or not theirs).


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## renjbaker (Oct 7, 2013)

cookieface said:


> OP, did you follow the advice you were given in this post: food aggression ?


Yes, we did take the advice from this post. He no longer is aggressive when it comes to his bones or raw hides. Slowly and with my husband holding him when he has one, we would have the kids give him the bone and take it away. We did this for a short period of time and he's much better. I STILL don't let the kids get too close to pet him when he's chewing on food or eating though. He was about two months when he did this with his raw hide. He's now 4 1/2 months.


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## renjbaker (Oct 7, 2013)

renjbaker said:


> Help! My 4 month old golden/cocker spaniel just bit my 5 year old son! I was putting away groceries in the kitchen and my 5 year old son (in the kitchen area as well) was just standing near the dog while it was eating out of a ball.... one where you add the food to it and the dog pats it around to get the food out. I didn't see the whole incident, but my son said he was just standing there. He didn't pet the dog or touch the food. The dog grabbed his arm, put 2 holes in his shirt, and my son's arm looks bruised and scratched w/ blood. Right after it happened I went to the dog who had layed his body and head down (I think he knew it was wrong) and I put him in submission hold and then in his crate.
> 
> I then cleaned the wound which even a large bandaid wouldn't cover, had to cover it with a large bandadge cloth.
> 
> ...


I would like to add to this post... our dog has never growled at us when we are around his food, bones, or raw hides. He just all of a sudden lunged. I'm wondering, too, if as a pup with his litter mates he had to fight for his food more. He was one of the smaller pups. I do want to add, because there have been a few statement on the submission hold, that we simply and gently lay him on his side and hold him down until he calms down. I think some might think we throw him on the ground and yell or something. Also, right after he "submits" we praise him for it. To me, it's very positive, but not sure everyone does it the way we do. He only been aggressive a few times in the 3 months we've had him, too.


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## renjbaker (Oct 7, 2013)

kelly528 said:


> Granted the way things turned out, I'm thinking the only advice she took from that thread was her own.


Why is it that some people on these threads get so snarky?? First off, my first thread was about raw hides and my second thread was about his food in a ball 2 months later. This is the first dog I have ever owned and it's nice to hear other's experiences, etc. I also respect all opinions even if we don't do what was suggested.


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## renjbaker (Oct 7, 2013)

kelly528 said:


> Put a stop to all 'submission-hold', dominance training, whatever you are doing straightaway. Immediately. Any alpha-crap is a very good way to wind up with a fearful and insecure fear-biter. Out of curiosity, has this dog been disciplined for any behaviour toward the child in the past? This type of behaviour (where medical conditions have been ruled out) is extremely, extremely unusual in dogs that have had only positive experiences in the past with children. Even common but ill-advised stuff like trying to place your child as an 'alpha' to the dog encourages a lot of fear and insecurity toward children in the dog. In fact, I would advise against any positive punishment where the kid is involved; the only thing this does to the dog is presenting the child as 'that kid that makes my owners angry at me'.
> 
> Seeing that the dog is only 4 months old, I think a good remainder of the problem can be attributed to the fact that he is not fully socialized and doesn't realize the power of his bite. And knowing kids, I would not buy the whole story from your son; it's very natural for a child to recall himself 'just standing there': He's already probably shaken up by the whole thing and did not want to get into any more trouble! It's quite possible that he may have been doing something in poor judgement (I mean hey, he's a 5 year old, not Steve Irwin) such as picking up a treat and teasing the dog with it, approaching the ball despite warnings from the dog (not all warnings come out as growls) etc. It may have not even been resource guarding at all: Puppies have little concept of 'bite inhibition' and can get whipped up and deliver a pretty brutal chomp in good fun.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I'm going to look into this.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> I haven't had that experience, ie that it can be trained out.
> 
> My experience was that it can be managed by removing high value items and crate feeding.
> 
> ...


My dog can snap a deer's leg like we can a toothpick. He tried to RG when I first got him and I found out by having him snap at me. I couldn't read his body language because it was dark out. I have never had a dog do that to me before, I didn't know any better. Nobody really taught me any better. It took about a week for him to learn there was no need to guard his food. I can reach into his bowl now if I have to. 
I took care of a pup that RGd VERY BADLY. I have never in my life seen a puppy so young and RG to the point where he simply would not warn you beyond a stern look. I started on him immediately and within a week he started to learn.

It can be trained out, it can be managed. But it takes effort.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

renjbaker said:


> I would like to add to this post... our dog has never growled at us when we are around his food, bones, or raw hides. He just all of a sudden lunged. I'm wondering, too, if as a pup with his litter mates he had to fight for his food more. He was one of the smaller pups. I do want to add, because there have been a few statement on the submission hold, that* we simply and gently lay him on his side and hold him down until he calms down.* I think some might think we throw him on the ground and yell or something. Also, right after he "submits" we praise him for it. T*o me, it's very positive,* but not sure everyone does it the way we do. He only been aggressive a few times in the 3 months we've had him, too.


It might be positive to you, but in general, being pinned on one's side is a vulnerable and stressful position for most animals.

Lunging "all of the sudden" makes me think that either the dog has been reprimanded for showing stress signs (which may or may not have included growling but obviously included something worth pinning him to the ground for) or that is wasn't all of the sudden and that rather a child missed the warning signs and may have pressed forward in bothering the dog. 

A 4 or 5 month old puppy that leaves a bite which doesn't require medical attention and which came after being bothered around his food doesn't to me indicate anything irreversible. Puppies often don't know their bite and a "warning" nip can break skin, especially on a smaller child, completely unintentionally. Kids are clumsy and their body language is rude, the 2-3 year old stage is a rough stage even for very very tolerant dogs since even the most tolerant dog shouldn't be pushed to the max. 

Careful evaluation of your household and the dog and what you are capable of training and managing is a good thing. But considering the dog a "biter" in this context is not a good thing or reasonable at this stage IMO.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

RJ, I'm sorry if I came off as harsh or terse. More than anything it really gets me how this sort of advice is solicited to families with young kids, and nobody wants to see your kids or your dog in danger. I recall when we got Toby 10 years ago… A lot of _books_ recommended alpha-rolling and the rest of that nonsense, so by the time we laid our little chomped at the altar of a respected dog-trainer she was not surprised one bit that he was acting up.

The reason that they appear to 'calm down' is basically because they are going limp to save their own skin. It's a 'see, I'm limp now _please_ don't hurt me'- type thing, sort of like playing dead: To just go to jelly like that in a tense, fight-or-flight situation is not a happy thing. It means that the dog is making themselves vulnerable to the threat as an only means of saving itself; sort of like playing dead in front of an angry bear. When a dog goes limp and vulnerable like this, its neck and belly are totally exposed. It's a plea for its life. So naturally, if you are doing this on a regular basis, it kind of sets their teeth on edge! (Figuratively and sometimes literally!)


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

The dog has to have a leader other wise he will become the leader. There is nothing wrong with putting your dog in a submissive position.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> The dog has to have a leader other wise he will become the leader. There is nothing wrong with putting your dog in a submissive position.


Well, there's the fact that wolves (which you seem to be basing your techniques off of) don't forcibly pin each other -- the submissive position is a voluntary one. A human who forcibly pins a dog is not a leader in a dog's eyes; he is dangerous.

I wish people would stop throwing out bad advice like this without educating themselves. If it works for you, fine! Keep on keeping on. Just stop giving potentially dangerous advice to someone whose dog you have not even seen in person. There's a reason why most of us here suggest positive techniques only or refer to a behaviorist -- we don't want to be responsible for someone attempting to use force-based techniques on a dog and getting bitten. (Plus the positive techniques are scientifically proven to work best.)

The Dominance Controversy (by Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS)
De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory
AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals
Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog
Wolf expert L. David Mech's site (he helped popularize the whole "pack order"/alpha/dominance thing, but later learned that much of what he believed was wrong)

Plus:

Enforcing vs. Reinforcing – Reflections on Leadership and Dogs
The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory
Is Punishment an Effective Way to Change the Behavior of Dogs?
Leader of the Pack


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

kelly528 said:


> RJ, I'm sorry if I came off as harsh or terse. More than anything it really gets me how this sort of advice is solicited to families with young kids, and nobody wants to see your kids or your dog in danger. I recall when we got Toby 10 years ago… A lot of _books_ recommended alpha-rolling and the rest of that nonsense, so by the time we laid our little chomped at the altar of a respected dog-trainer she was not surprised one bit that he was acting up.
> 
> The reason that they appear to 'calm down' is basically because they are going limp to save their own skin. It's a 'see, I'm limp now _please_ don't hurt me'- type thing, sort of like playing dead: To just go to jelly like that in a tense, fight-or-flight situation is not a happy thing. It means that the dog is making themselves vulnerable to the threat as an only means of saving itself; sort of like playing dead in front of an angry bear. When a dog goes limp and vulnerable like this, its neck and belly are totally exposed. It's a plea for its life. So naturally, if you are doing this on a regular basis, it kind of sets their teeth on edge! (Figuratively and sometimes literally!)


i cannnot believe what i am reading. When a dog allows you to put him in a submission position it is not a plea for its life lol. The dog does this to show respect to a more dominant being. When you put your dog in a submission position it is important to rub your dog and massage your dog so that the dog understands that you mean no harm but you demand respect and obedience as the pack leader. Over time if done correctly you should not have to use any physical touch to have your dog submit in necessary situations. A dog does not always have to be belly up to show submission, as long as the dog backs off when commanded and shows a relaxed state of mind it is being submissive. I dont grasp the reasoning in this "trade" or "give and take" game that some people here want to play with their dogs. That is NOT training, its bribing your dog...bottom line.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Well, there's the fact that wolves (which you seem to be basing your techniques off of) don't forcibly pin each other -- the submissive position is a voluntary one. A human who forcibly pins a dog is not a leader in a dog's eyes; he is dangerous.
> 
> I wish people would stop throwing out bad advice like this without educating themselves. If it works for you, fine! Keep on keeping on. Just stop giving potentially dangerous advice to someone whose dog you have not even seen in person. There's a reason why most of us here suggest positive techniques only or refer to a behaviorist -- we don't want to be responsible for someone attempting to use force-based techniques on a dog and getting bitten. (Plus the positive techniques are scientifically proven to work best.)
> 
> ...


I feel like if a person has a dog that is so dangerous and such a threat and liability, they should rehome the dog with someone more capable of handling the dog. Certain dogs are better off with owners who are more educated on aggression. IF YOU ARE FEARFUL THAT YOUR DOG WILL ATTACK, MAUL OR SERIOUSLY INJURE YOU DO NOT TRY THE SUBMISSION TECHNIQUE, PLEASE FIND A HOME BETTER SUITED FOR THE DOG. Do not waste your time on bribing your dog with treats or toys in serious situations either, especially bully breeds.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The fact that you'd even refer to a treat as a "bribe" shows that you're not clear about what positive training actually is. It's admirable when someone stands behind his opinion, but one really has to educate himself on both sides of an issue before he can truly argue for one side and against the other.

Here, most of the common arguments against positive training are refuted here. Saves me some typing. http://eileenanddogs.com/common-misconceptions-positive-reinforcement/

Those links I posted above are also chock full of information.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Well, this has been interesting... Despite his advocacy of positive punishment, Alpaha is here presenting us with case & point:

Despite the negative attention he receives for his antics, he continues to repeat the undesired behaviour (coming into threads to encourage a dominance-theory approach). 

Why don't you tell us, Alapaha, how is our positive punishment working on you?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> The fact that you'd even refer to a treat as a "bribe" shows that you're not clear about what positive training actually is. It's admirable when someone stands behind his opinion, but one really has to educate himself on both sides of an issue before he can truly argue for one side and against the other.
> 
> Here, most of the common arguments against positive training are refuted here. Saves me some typing. http://eileenanddogs.com/common-misconceptions-positive-reinforcement/
> 
> Those links I posted above are also chock full of information.


I use treats as a reward during command training or sometimes just because my dogs are so darn cute i want to give them a treat...not as a bribe to not bite me or my children if we get too close to the food bowl or if i need to take away something from my dogs.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Isn't it the same in the end? Desensitization is really just teaching your dog commands that apply all the time: relax, don't be rude and don't get pushy or snappy. Just as you can phase treats out with command training, you can fade them out with BAT (behavior adjustment training).


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I can take anything from my dogs. My AKK in particular is amazing at immediately spitting whatever he has in his mouth out if I say "drop it" -- even cooked chicken bones picked up on a walk. I didn't have to "bribe" him or threaten him to make him this way, and I don't have to offer up a treat in exchange. When he was young, I simply made sure that he considered me being around his food and toys a good thing. Sometimes I'd randomly toss some extra treats into his bowl, or I'd hand-feed him, or I'd offer him a better toy than the one he was chewing on. I prevented resource guarding before it even had a chance to manifest. 

The same techniques work amazingly on dogs that are already resource guarders. These dogs are guarding because they are afraid you'll take their stuff away. When you DO take their stuff away, you're reinforcing that fear. You're making the dog see you as someone who steals its things. It's much better to make your dog see you being around its things as a positive by giving it more food or trading for better food instead of taking things away. Once your dog has this mindset, you definitely won't need to bribe the dog or trade up every time it has something it shouldn't, because the dog trusts you and has a positive association with you. It won't mind you taking things sometimes because it knows you usually give better things. It's common-sense _and it works_.

Cesar Millan is a TV personality with no real dog-related credentials. He says some correct things, but he says a lot of incorrect things, too. His TV show also has a "don't try this at home" disclaimer for a reason. Instead of blindly following a TV personality (or a forum poster who's trained a few personal dogs, for that matter), I like to go with animal behaviorists with loads of certifications and experience helping hundreds (or thousands) of dogs. I believe that Patricia McConnell has said that RGing is one of the things she's dealt with a lot. I'll link her blog post about it again here, because she knows what she's talking about.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

kelly528 said:


> Isn't it the same in the end? Desensitization is really just teaching your dog commands that apply all the time: relax, don't be rude and don't get pushy or snappy. Just as you can phase treats out with command training, you can fade them out with BAT (behavior adjustment training).


Maybe the treat trick could work in a case were you've just got a new dog/puppy and you give the dog its food, you touch the food and move the food, if the dog reacts nicely you give an EXTRA yummy treat as a reward, and continue this to encourage the good behavior. But in this case the dog already has food aggression and has crossed the line by biting, which tells me that the dog does not respect or trust for the person that he bit. It is not all of the dogs fault, children should never be unsupervised around animals, especially so during feeding time.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Actually, RGing can be fixed, not just prevented or managed. It's not the same thing as having a human-aggressive dog.

And what's with all the talk of dogs "respecting" people here recently? Didn't you say that we shouldn't humanize our animals? How much do you think they understand about the concept of respect? What leads you, as a human being, to respect someone? Is it force?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Dogs like most other animals are taught respect by there mother and other members of their pack, here's a link you may need to read. http://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/mother-dog-bite-her-puppies-6735.html


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Actually, RGing can be fixed, not just prevented or managed. It's not the same thing as having a human-aggressive dog.
> 
> And what's with all the talk of dogs "respecting" people here recently? Didn't you say that we shouldn't humanize our animals? How much do you think they understand about the concept of respect? What leads you, as a human being, to respect someone? Is it force?


Dogs do not think the same as humans in case you didnt know that. I can respect the request " leave me alone" a dog cannot. Dogs respond to situations mostly by instict and action. If a dog is messing with a snake for example and the snake tries to slither away, the dog will pursue the snake and continue to mess with the snake and probably any other snake he come across, however if the snake strikes the dog he will know to not mess with snakes.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> I can take anything from my dogs. My AKK in particular is amazing at immediately spitting whatever he has in his mouth out if I say "drop it" -- even cooked chicken bones picked up on a walk. I didn't have to "bribe" him or threaten him to make him this way, and I don't have to offer up a treat in exchange. When he was young, I simply made sure that he considered me being around his food and toys a good thing. Sometimes I'd randomly toss some extra treats into his bowl, or I'd hand-feed him, or I'd offer him a better toy than the one he was chewing on. I prevented resource guarding before it even had a chance to manifest.
> 
> The same techniques work amazingly on dogs that are already resource guarders. These dogs are guarding because they are afraid you'll take their stuff away. When you DO take their stuff away, you're reinforcing that fear. You're making the dog see you as someone who steals its things. It's much better to make your dog see you being around its things as a positive by giving it more food or trading for better food instead of taking things away. Once your dog has this mindset, you definitely won't need to bribe the dog or trade up every time it has something it shouldn't, because the dog trusts you and has a positive association with you. It won't mind you taking things sometimes because it knows you usually give better things. It's common-sense _and it works_.
> 
> Cesar Millan is a TV personality with no real dog-related credentials. He says some correct things, but he says a lot of incorrect things, too. His TV show also has a "don't try this at home" disclaimer for a reason. Instead of blindly following a TV personality (or a forum poster who's trained a few personal dogs, for that matter), I like to go with animal behaviorists with loads of certifications and experience helping hundreds (or thousands) of dogs. I believe that Patricia McConnell has said that RGing is one of the things she's dealt with a lot. I'll link her blog post about it again here, because she knows what she's talking about.


I do not agree that your technique will work with a dog who is already food aggressive. The dog is not always guarding because of fear something with be taken, most times the dog is saying "this is mine" in a dominating manner. As i mentioned earlier i have been raising/training my dogs by being a trustworthy and assertive leader way before CM ever had a show on television. However i do think that he is a brilliant dog trainer and i have learned quite a bit from his teachings.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Thankfully, you don't need to agree with "my technique" for it to actually work. Which it has... with thousands of dogs.

As for your link... please find me something written by someone with actual credentials. "Freelance writer with a bachelor of arts" doesn't count. That article doesn't prove your point anyway... it talks about how mother dogs teach their puppies about bite inhibition, which no one is disputing and which has nothing to do with RGing. Also, from your link:



> If a puppy gets too mouthy during nursing, his mother might show him that she doesn't approve of it by simply getting up and moving away from him. When this happens over and over again, puppies learn their lesson. Puppies also learn bite inhibition from their littermates. When a puppy bites his sibling too sharply during playtime, the "victim" might stop playing immediately, giving the first one a crucial education in not biting too hard.


Well hey, look at that... a technique positive trainers use. 

Also, you didn't satisfactorily answer my question about respect. Are you saying that dogs only respect things they fear? They stay in line because they'll be hurt if they don't? Do you consider that actual respect?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

renjbaker said:


> 5 year old son (in the kitchen area as well) was just standing near the dog while it was eating out of a ball....


There's your problem. Do not allow a child near a dog while it's eating.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Thankfully, you don't need to agree with "my technique" for it to actually work. Which it has... with thousands of dogs.
> 
> As for your link... please find me something written by someone with actual credentials. "Freelance writer with a bachelor of arts" doesn't count. That article doesn't prove your point anyway... it talks about how mother dogs teach their puppies about bite inhibition, which no one is disputing and which has nothing to do with RGing. Also, from your link:
> 
> ...


Call it avoidance 

And Alpaha, have you ever watched a confident dominant dog interact with a rude dog or puppy? Lexy is a total goon with other dogs so I observe a lot about how dogs deal with 'out-of-line' behavior. They don't actually alpha roll, or even get confrontational. They will pointedly ignore the rude party. If the offender persists (jumping, lunging, overstepping spacial boundaries to initiate play, they simply freeze, lift their chin in an aloof fashion, flatten their ears and perhaps let out an assertive, short bark, before continuing to walk away. They will repeat this pattern of freezing when approached and walking away when the rude dog relents until they are fully disengaged. _Unless the other dog initiates aggression_, no physical contact, let alone aggressive behaviour is made by the dominant dog. 

I am in the camp that a dominant member in the group is showing insecurity by trying to re-establish the order where it already exists. If you are taller than your dog, feed your dog, appear to have been on their 'home turf' for longer than they have, your dog takes for granted that you run the show, trust me. The only thing left to do is to teach them how the show runs around your 'pack' in a sensible, peaceful and confident way.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Thankfully, you don't need to agree with "my technique" for it to actually work. Which it has... with thousands of dogs.
> 
> As for your link... please find me something written by someone with actual credentials. "Freelance writer with a bachelor of arts" doesn't count. That article doesn't prove your point anyway... it talks about how mother dogs teach their puppies about bite inhibition, which no one is disputing and which has nothing to do with RGing. Also, from your link:
> 
> ...


What makes someone an expert on how animals think? Researching what some other "expert" wrote? Going to a school and being taught by a human who learned from books written by other so called experts? And it just goes on and on. The truth of the matter is that science/scientists cannot tell you what your dog is thinking. We can only guess and draw conclusions about how dogs think and feel by studying how they live and interact with each other before human intervention. You seem to forget where your dogs originated from. You can take a dog out of the wild but you cannot take the wild out of a dog, and what i mean by that is that no matter how much humans have domesticated dogs, they are STILL dogs and we have and cannot change the way that they think. Cesar has studied dogs and interacted with dogs and he applies that knowledge to his training, he communicates with dogs in a way that is very similar to the way that they communicate with one another. Im sorry to break this to you but the "dog world" is not as pretty and harmonious as humans would like for it to be. I DO NOT condone abuse in any way, however in the dog world there HAS to be a leader who sets rules and boundaries, otherwise there would be no structure. You have more than one dog so you know that one is more dominant than the other. You should also remember that your beloved pets are first animals, then dogs, and lastly name. if you think for one second that a previously food aggressive dog will never bite a child again for touching its food, because you "trained" it with treats not to do so then let me tell you, you are sadly mistaken and have caused an accident waiting to happen. i suggest that YOU do some research my friend!


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Sigh. 

Threads like this make me sad. It really sounds like the OP's dog was punished for growling, and so stopped growling and went straight to the bite. 

Also, RG CAN be worked with, good grief. It really isn't that difficult a behaviour to change as long as you're committed to it. Punishing it is not going to make it better. It just teaches the dog they DO need to guard their stuff, because usually when you're around and they have food bad things happen.

Rewarding and trading up show the dog that GOOD things happen when you're around and they have food, so there's no need to guard it. There's no bribing involved, it's changing how the dog feels about you around their food.

Alapaha- What we're talking about is operant conditioning. A scientific technique that has been proven to work on MANY species of animals (including people), not just dogs. It's often used in zoos so that animals don't have to be put under to be examined. Can you imagine trying to put a tiger into a 'submission' hold? No? Good thing we don't have to, because there are much more effective ways of getting a tiger to do what you want.

Also, most guarding issues ARE from the dog being afraid you're going to take their stuff. They just are. It has nothing to do with the dog being 'dominant' to show you who's boss. 

I sincerely urge you to research the work of actual behaviourists and not random guy who has decided he knows why dogs behave certain ways. He doesn't. There is no scientific evidence that he does (the scientist who developed dominance theory many years ago has even said that it is incorrect and was a flawed study). And there is a LOT of scientific evidence to the contrary.

Edit: Also on the submission hold (or Alpha roll, whatever you want to call it). I compare it to someone grabbing you, pushing you onto your back and cocking a fist like they're going to punch you in the face and holding you there.

Sure, they might not be causing you physical pain, but it is still a very threatening action and is going to change how you perceive that person. You'd probably be more tense and on guard around them because you'd see them as unstable and potentially violent.

Animals only forcibly put others on their backs when they intend on doing serious harm (killing), that's why it's not a good thing to do.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> What makes someone an expert on how animals think? Researching what some other "expert" wrote? Going to a school and being taught by a human who learned from books written by other so called experts? And it just goes on and on. The truth of the matter is that science/scientists cannot tell you what your dog is thinking. We can only guess and draw conclusions about how dogs think and feel by studying how they live and interact with each other before human intervention. You seem to forget where your dogs originated from. You can take a dog out of the wild but you cannot take the wild out of a dog, and what i mean by that is that no matter how much humans have domesticated dogs, they are STILL dogs and we have and cannot change the way that they think. Cesar has studied dogs and interacted with dogs and he applies that knowledge to his training, he communicates with dogs in a way that is very similar to the way that they communicate with one another. Im sorry to break this to you but the "dog world" is not as pretty and harmonious as humans would like for it to be. I DO NOT condone abuse in any way, however in the dog world there HAS to be a leader who sets rules and boundaries, otherwise there would be no structure. You have more than one dog so you know that one is more dominant than the other. You should also remember that your beloved pets are first animals, then dogs, and lastly name. if you think for one second that a previously food aggressive dog will never bite a child again for touching its food, because you "trained" it with treats not to do so then let me tell you, you are sadly mistaken and have caused an accident waiting to happen. i suggest that YOU do some research my friend!


I'm curious why you're so certain that RG can't be fixed. What sort of evidence do you have that that's the case? I've personally seen many dogs improve with RG at the shelter, as have others here, along with those who have had their own dogs with guarding issues in the past.

Also, you didn't really address anything that Cran said. Probably because the post was actually just copy/pasted from a thread where you were replying to someone else. Did you actually read her objections?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

renjbaker said:


> Yes, we did take the advice from this post. He no longer is aggressive when it comes to his bones or raw hides. Slowly and with my husband holding him when he has one, we would have the kids give him the bone and take it away. We did this for a short period of time and he's much better. I STILL don't let the kids get too close to pet him when he's chewing on food or eating though. He was about two months when he did this with his raw hide. He's now 4 1/2 months.


That sounds very much like the technique you were advised *not* to use.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Threads like this make me sad. It really sounds like the OP's dog was punished for growling, and so stopped growling and went straight to the bite.
> 
> ...


My comment was not directed to this specific thread topic, but to whom i replied to. As far as the OP's situation i do think that this dogs guarding aggression can be corrected because the dog is still young and i believe this has only happened once or twice. Im sure that you and i would use different approaches, but all in all i agree that THIS situation can most likely be managed at the least. However, Crantastic seems to be implying that she can 100% stop guarding in any dog, no matter how severe the case is, with treat training.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

kelly528 said:


> Call it avoidance
> 
> And Alpaha, have you ever watched a confident dominant dog interact with a rude dog or puppy? Lexy is a total goon with other dogs so I observe a lot about how dogs deal with 'out-of-line' behavior. They don't actually alpha roll, or even get confrontational. They will pointedly ignore the rude party. If the offender persists (jumping, lunging, overstepping spacial boundaries to initiate play, they simply freeze, lift their chin in an aloof fashion, flatten their ears and perhaps let out an assertive, short bark, before continuing to walk away. They will repeat this pattern of freezing when approached and walking away when the rude dog relents until they are fully disengaged. _Unless the other dog initiates aggression_, no physical contact, let alone aggressive behaviour is made by the dominant dog.
> 
> I am in the camp that a dominant member in the group is showing insecurity by trying to re-establish the order where it already exists. If you are taller than your dog, feed your dog, appear to have been on their 'home turf' for longer than they have, your dog takes for granted that you run the show, trust me. The only thing left to do is to teach them how the show runs around your 'pack' in a sensible, peaceful and confident way.


Thats another load...most dogs will not tolerate that much annoyance unless it feels submissive to the aggressor. Heck, all of what you mentioned would cause even a fearful dog to lash out.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> I'm curious why you're so certain that RG can't be fixed. What sort of evidence do you have that that's the case? I've personally seen many dogs improve with RG at the shelter, as have others here, along with those who have had their own dogs with guarding issues in the past.
> 
> Also, you didn't really address anything that Cran said. Probably because the post was actually just copy/pasted from a thread where you were replying to someone else. Did you actually read her objections?


I never said that it cant be fixed. in young puppies i do believe it can be corrected, in an adult dog i think that it can be controlled/managed but not 100% corrected. Almost 100% of the time, shelter dogs with guarding aggression are put down because they are a liability and can not be TOTALLY trusted. Yes i did copy and paste MY post from another thread because it pertains to this thread also....SO WHAT, lol


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

if you all are so against being an assertive pack leader, you wouldnt last a minute on the bulldog forum lol:rockon:


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Positive training does not equal permissive training. We still have rules and structure for our dogs we simply don't believe they have to be taught/enforced with harsh methods.

ETA:
With consistent work and time yes resource guarding can be fixed with "treat training". I got my dog at about 2 years old and he would resource guard high value objects. Using only positive methods he no longer guards anything from me. He trusts I will not take things from him for no reason and there is a fair chance he'll get something nice in return. He certainly wasn't an extreme case, never bit, gave lots of warnings he didn't like me near him and his high value object, and would avoid rather than confront me. But with time, consistency, and no harsh methods I can approach him when he has high value items and he'll even let me take it if I ask.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

dagwall said:


> Positive training does not equal permissive training. We still have rules and structure for our dogs we simply don't believe they have to be taught/enforced with harsh methods.


what do you call "harsh methods"?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

dagwall said:


> Positive training does not equal permissive training. We still have rules and structure for our dogs we simply don't believe they have to be taught/enforced with harsh methods.


what do you do if a dog bites you?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I never said that it cant be fixed. in young puppies i do believe it can be corrected, in an adult dog i think that it can be controlled/managed but not 100% corrected. Almost 100% of the time, shelter dogs with guarding aggression are put down because they are a liability and can not be TOTALLY trusted. Yes i did copy and paste MY post from another thread because it pertains to this thread also....SO WHAT, lol


Again, I volunteer at a shelter and we do not put down dogs just for having RG issues. The dogs are worked with and I've actually never seen one who didn't improve. We also require those who adopt them to have a 1 on 1 consult with a trainer so they can continue the training.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> if you all are so against being an assertive pack leader, you wouldnt last a minute on the bulldog forum lol:rockon:


There's a difference between being an assertive leader and dominating your dog physically.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> what do you do if a dog bites you?


I've only been bit once by a resource guarder and it was an inhibited nip that only broke one layer of skin and left a slight bruise. It was my first foster dog and it happened about 9 months into his stay with us. All I did was tell him to sit and stay and returned to cleaning up his puke. That is what he decided to guard, his puke he wanted to eat apparently. He hadn't really shown any signs of resource guarding with people in the 9 months in my home so I didn't even think before reaching out to push him away from his puke. Really he seemed just as surprised as I was after he nipped me, listened to the sit/stay, and I finished cleaning up. No further action was required. Just something to be aware of in the future for me and his potential adopters, he finds puke as a high value item to be guarded so manage the situation in his case. That was the one and only time he'd puked in the 10 months I had him so not likely to be a common issue for him. 

I've never pushed another dog to the point they felt they needed to bite but have worked with a number of foster dogs and dogs at the shelter who resource guard.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> There's a difference between being an assertive leader and dominating your dog physically.


Agreed with the addition that intimidation can be just as damaging to a relationship as physical domination.

I came across this earlier today and thought it might be useful for anyone who happens to stumble upon this thread: My Dog Bit My Child. Good information on appropriate supervision and interaction when children and dogs are part of a family.

ETA: Another good article: Why Supervising Dogs and Kids Doesn’t Work


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> what do you do if a dog bites you?


I'm sorry but this is THE SILLIEST question posed about positive training. The implication is always that +R trainers must just let the dog chew on their arm while waving hot dogs. That is just so ridiculous. Any positive trainer will do whatever it takes to remove the dog and ensure their own safety, but that isn't about training, it's damage control.

Good behavioral modification via +R relies on not putting the dog over threshold (so he feels no need to bite) and gradually reshaping his behavior. If the dog bites, most +R trainers will count it as a mistake on their part more than anything else. Do whatever they have to make themselves safe, and then evaluate where things went wrong. 

There are valid questions to be asked about the current dogmas that are so readily spouted in "purely positive" training but _this_ is not one of them IMO.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> Do not waste your time on bribing your dog with treats or toys in serious situations either, especially bully breeds.


Bully breeds respond very well to positive training. They are emotionally sensitive dogs that are very people oriented and have a natural enthusiasm that is perfect for engaging their mind in training. 

If you put the legwork in initially, you won't have a serious situation to worry about. It isn't "bribery", it is training that sets the dog and the handler up for success by creating a dog that is confident and has trust in the human rather than fear or being shut-down. I don't want a dog that is "submissive" -- which is often just shut-down emotionally-- I want one that listens to me and works WITH me and is willing to think and offer behaviors without fear of punishment.

The OP has a puppy whose original trainable, fixable resource guarding problem was worsened by the same kind of bad training techniques that you're suggesting in this and other threads. The forced submission, the repeated taking away of treats by the adults and kids both -- things that she was advised NOT to do but did anyway -- are just asking for a bite. If she stops that stuff now, the puppy's issues are highly likely to be reversible.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Shell said:


> *Bully breeds respond very well to positive training. They are emotionally sensitive dogs that are very people oriented and have a natural enthusiasm that is perfect for engaging their mind in training. *
> 
> If you put the legwork in initially, you won't have a serious situation to worry about. It isn't "bribery", it is training that sets the dog and the handler up for success by creating a dog that is confident and has trust in the human rather than fear or being shut-down. I don't want a dog that is "submissive" -- which is often just shut-down emotionally-- I want one that listens to me and works WITH me and is willing to think and offer behaviors without fear of punishment.
> 
> The OP has a puppy whose original trainable, fixable resource guarding problem was worsened by the same kind of bad training techniques that you're suggesting in this and other threads. The forced submission, the repeated taking away of treats by the adults and kids both -- things that she was advised NOT to do but did anyway -- are just asking for a bite. If she stops that stuff now, the puppy's issues are highly likely to be reversible.


Agree with this, not sure how I missed it before, haha.

I tend to prefer working with the bully breeds at the shelter because they're all so eager to learn and to please. Makes them a lot easier, IMO, to work with.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Agree with the above, not to mention, if you're "bribing" you're doing it wrong. Very wrong.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> if you all are so against being an assertive pack leader, you wouldnt last a minute on the bulldog forum lol:rockon:


Good to know. 
Wonderful that there is a whole forum dedicated to trying to disprove science by intimidating their dogs.
I will try to avoid this forum where apparently everybody needs to feel big by hurting their dogs. lol


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'll admit there's a little something to being an "assertive leader", because if you're a simpering twit _nobody_ is going to listen to you because who listens to a simpering twit? Even the person making your Subway is going to get annoyed if you're all like "maybe some lettuce. . .no! Wait yes! Um I don't know. . .". You need to be confident if you want anybody to take you seriously. But somehow, even in the business world, not just the dog training world, being a "leader" is now code for "macho overcompensating jerk who feels a need to bully people (or dogs)". Don't even get me started on what "assertive" is code for. True leadership is good. Being a jerk or a bully is not.

Of course, the kicker there is that nobody ever recognizes (or admits it if they do recognize it) when they're being a jerk or a bully :/.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> I never said that it cant be fixed. in young puppies i do believe it can be corrected, in an adult dog i think that it can be controlled/managed but not 100% corrected.


You'd better tell my adult dog.... We fixed his resource guarding and haven't had an incident since, and all I used was cheese


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Wow. I had no idea that bully breeds required such magical training techniques!

So special. Very unique. What a distinctive snowflake. *eye roll*

Positive reinforcement when applied correctly works with ALL breeds. Just science right there.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'll admit there's a little something to being an "assertive leader", because if you're a simpering twit _nobody_ is going to listen to you because who listens to a simpering twit? Even the person making your Subway is going to get annoyed if you're all like "maybe some lettuce. . .no! Wait yes! Um I don't know. . .". You need to be confident if you want anybody to take you seriously. But somehow, even in the business world, not just the dog training world, being a "leader" is now code for "macho overcompensating jerk who feels a need to bully people (or dogs)". True leadership is good. Being a jerk or a bully is not.
> 
> Of course, the kicker there is that nobody ever recognizes (or admits it if they do recognize it) when they're being a jerk or a bully :/.


:clap2: :clap2: :clap2:


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I'll admit there's a little something to being an "assertive leader", because if you're a simpering twit _nobody_ is going to listen to you because who listens to a simpering twit? Even the person making your Subway is going to get annoyed if you're all like "maybe some lettuce. . .no! Wait yes! Um I don't know. . .". You need to be confident if you want anybody to take you seriously. But somehow, even in the business world, not just the dog training world, being a "leader" is now code for "macho overcompensating jerk who feels a need to bully people (or dogs)". Don't even get me started on what "assertive" is code for. True leadership is good. Being a jerk or a bully is not.
> 
> Of course, the kicker there is that nobody ever recognizes (or admits it if they do recognize it) when they're being a jerk or a bully :/.


Yes!

I really liked the passage in "The Other End of the Leash" where she talks about how people who are truly respected as leaders don't need to resort to being physical or intimidating.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> if you all are so against being an assertive pack leader, you wouldnt last a minute on the bulldog forum lol:rockon:


Oh and another thing I have a bully mix and getting physical with her does nothing. My ex tried it. I used treats and hey look at that she listens. 

If anyone tried to alpha roll or get physical with my bully mix I would lose my mind she is epileptic not only is there no need to be physical you CAN'T be physical with her.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'll admit there's a little something to being an "assertive leader", because if you're a simpering twit _nobody_ is going to listen to you because who listens to a simpering twit? Even the person making your Subway is going to get annoyed if you're all like "maybe some lettuce. . .no! Wait yes! Um I don't know. . .". You need to be confident if you want anybody to take you seriously. But somehow, even in the business world, not just the dog training world, being a "leader" is now code for "macho overcompensating jerk who feels a need to bully people (or dogs)". Don't even get me started on what "assertive" is code for. True leadership is good. Being a jerk or a bully is not.
> 
> Of course, the kicker there is that nobody ever recognizes (or admits it if they do recognize it) when they're being a jerk or a bully :/.


Nicely stated. The most effective leaders I've known have used respect, clear direction, and sincere appreciation rather than intimidation, threats, and force.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I only wish I had read some of the 'arguments' being presented here FIRST, before I responded to the poster in the other CM thread. 
:lalala: pretty much sums things up


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> what do you do if a dog bites you?


Id be asking the question why is (your) dog biting you.... ?????? Dog biting it's owners is NOT THE NORM in behaviors... even the defensive/ reactive dogs that I have brought into my home for training, it's not their norm.. Look outside of the dog and the activity, events around that dog for your answers of what needs to change...


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I would just like to say that I work (as in paid employee) at a shelter, and we have successfully rehabbed many level 5 RG dogs down to an acceptable level (3 or below). I'm looking online for the scale we use and can't find it, but a level 5 is a dog that will bite (the fake hand). And these dogs can be consistently rehabbed (using +R and not aversives) to an acceptable level of non-RG.

soooo... don't say it can't be fixed, because I do it every day.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> if you all are so against being an assertive pack leader, you wouldnt last a minute on the bulldog forum lol:rockon:


Good thing will never be on a bulldog forum as i have a chihuahua mix and dont even care for bulldogs... lol


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I'll admit there's a little something to being an "assertive leader", because if you're a simpering twit _nobody_ is going to listen to you because who listens to a simpering twit? Even the person making your Subway is going to get annoyed if you're all like "maybe some lettuce. . .no! Wait yes! Um I don't know. . .". You need to be confident if you want anybody to take you seriously. But somehow, even in the business world, not just the dog training world, being a "leader" is now code for "macho overcompensating jerk who feels a need to bully people (or dogs)". Don't even get me started on what "assertive" is code for. True leadership is good. Being a jerk or a bully is not.
> 
> Of course, the kicker there is that nobody ever recognizes (or admits it if they do recognize it) when they're being a jerk or a bully :/.


Yes, all of this. I 100% agree that dog owners should be confident leaders to their dogs. But that does not mean getting physical with the dogs. A true confident leader doesn't need to resort to intimidation or force to get results.

It's also amusing/sad to me that every time we get one of these macho CM-loving people on the forums, they absolutely refuse to read any of the links we give them. You can tell they don't, because they reply too quickly after we post to have had any time to, and they keep asking questions/bringing up points that were covered in the links. It's disappointing that people are so quick to trust a TV personality, but don't believe in science or even care to look into it.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Yes, all of this. I 100% agree that dog owners should be confident leaders to their dogs. But that does not mean getting physical with the dogs. A true confident leader doesn't need to resort to intimidation or force to get results.
> 
> It's also amusing/sad to me that every time we get one of these macho CM-loving people on the forums, they absolutely refuse to read any of the links we give them. You can tell they don't, because they reply too quickly after we post to have had any time to, and they keep asking questions/bringing up points that were covered in the links. It's disappointing that people are so quick to trust a TV personality, but don't believe in science or even care to look into it.


Haha, it's like that TV commercial "they can't put anything on TV that isn't true". So screw your science I'm trusting the guy with the TV show.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't get it, though. Like... when I want to argue about something, I make sure I'm pretty well-versed on both sides, because then I can argue more effectively. I don't want to look stupid when I try to argue a point and clearly don't know much about it. It's hard to oppose something when you don't actually understand what you're opposing. Do other people just not care about looking uninformed? Are they just lazy? These are the things I wonder.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I don't get it, though. Like... when I want to argue about something, I make sure I'm pretty well-versed on both sides, because then I can argue more effectively. I don't want to look stupid when I try to argue a point and clearly don't know much about it. It's hard to oppose something when you don't actually understand what you're opposing. Do other people just not care about looking uninformed? Are they just lazy? These are the things I wonder.


At this point I have to go with probably lazy due to the copy/pasting of replies and not even really responding to things in the post they're quoting.

If you're going to quote someone, your reply should at least have something to do with that person's post content.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Sadly you can't fight ignorance with logic.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> if you all are so against being an assertive pack leader, you wouldnt last a minute on the bulldog forum lol:rockon:


 Maybe that general mindset is part of the reason why bully breeds are in such a precarious position within society these days.

Anyways, as far as fitting in at different forums, I figure turnabout is fair play.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Kayota said:


> Good thing will never be on a bulldog forum as i have a chihuahua mix and dont even care for bulldogs... lol


That's a perfect breed for you!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

petpeeve said:


> Maybe that general mindset is part of the reason why bully breeds are in such a precarious position within society these days.


 Yeah, I was thinking that from another thread. As long as even the non-fighting breed enthusiasts are all "my dog is tougher than your dog" I don't really see the situation improving :/.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Crantastic said:


> Yes, all of this. I 100% agree that dog owners should be confident leaders to their dogs. But that does not mean getting physical with the dogs. A true confident leader doesn't need to resort to intimidation or force to get results.
> 
> It's also amusing/sad to me that every time we get one of these macho CM-loving people on the forums, they absolutely refuse to read any of the links we give them. You can tell they don't, because they reply too quickly after we post to have had any time to, and they keep asking questions/bringing up points that were covered in the links. It's disappointing that people are so quick to trust a TV personality, but don't believe in science or even care to look into it.


I assert that I'm am a trustworthy, dominant leader as soon as I bring a dog home. Therefore I don't have to get physical with my dogs in order to get them to obey me. I can use a sound/word, eye contact, or a gesture to command my dogs. I will not read all of the "scientific" links posted because for one I don't agree with every scientists' interpretation, and because nothing will convince me to change my training method, BECAUSE IT WORKS. I am not a bully nor am I a jerk. I am a good pack leader , and proud of it!


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, I was thinking that from another thread. As long as even the non-fighting breed enthusiasts are all "my dog is tougher than your dog" I don't really see the situation improving :/.


And what "position" is that?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It's okay. We all know that Summer is the toughest dog there is. She will gum and lick you to death.


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> And what "position" is that?


Why don't you ask her in a new thread? You do realize by now that you are the only one constantly coming into this thread for the sole sake of opposing everyone else rather than simply answering the OP's question. If you want to debate, do it in your own thread. Some poor first-time dog owner who never even asked for a debate actually has to read all this junk, you know?


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

And I also own a 3 year old shi tzu


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

kelly528 said:


> Why don't you ask her in a new thread? You do realize by now that you are the only one constantly coming into this thread for the sole sake of opposing everyone else rather than simply answering the OP's question. If you want to debate, do it in your own thread. Some poor first-time dog owner who never even asked for a debate actually has to read all this junk, you know?


How about you tell her to post that comment in another thread, and then I'll ask my question in that thread. How am I the ONLY one debating on this thread?? Do you wear glasses? I cannot debate alone? Everyone else including YOU has been posting their 2 cents, so if you don't like it, go to another thread or simply bypass the comments and post your advise to the OP. Have a nice day!


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## kelly528 (Feb 13, 2014)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> How about you tell her to post that comment in another thread, and then I'll ask my question in that thread. How am I the ONLY one debating on this thread?? Do you wear glasses? I cannot debate alone? Everyone else including YOU has been posting their 2 cents, so if you don't like it, go to another thread or simply bypass the comments and post your advise to the OP. Have a nice day!


The difference here is that you are the only one in disagreement about the advice given. You seem for every part unaware of how ridiculous you sound and that you are clearly on a different level of cognition and experience from everyone who is putting forth their arguments. You can't even _respond_ to all the questions and responses you have received from the people involved. That is how outnumbered you are. You're marching to a bit of a different tune, here, I think it's time you bowed out.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> And what "position" is that?


I didn't say position? If you wanna find a pit bull thread we could go there.

If you don't read the links how do you know what you're disagreeing with?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Actually, Kelly is correct. This thread has been dragged way off topic. If you wish to debate dominance theory vs positive reinforcement, start a new thread. Otherwise, please confine your responses to the original topic of this thread.


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## Alapaha_Lover (Feb 21, 2014)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Actually, Kelly is correct. This thread has been dragged way off topic. If you wish to debate dominance theory vs positive reinforcement, start a new thread. Otherwise, please confine your responses to the original topic of this thread.


Will do, and thank you for not singling out one person.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

renjbaker said:


> Help! My 4 month old golden/cocker spaniel just bit my 5 year old son! I was putting away groceries in the kitchen and my 5 year old son (in the kitchen area as well) was just standing near the dog while it was eating out of a ball.... one where you add the food to it and the dog pats it around to get the food out. I didn't see the whole incident, but my son said he was just standing there. He didn't pet the dog or touch the food. The dog grabbed his arm, put 2 holes in his shirt, and my son's arm looks bruised and scratched w/ blood. Right after it happened I went to the dog who had layed his body and head down (I think he knew it was wrong) and I put him in submission hold and then in his crate.
> 
> I then cleaned the wound which even a large bandaid wouldn't cover, had to cover it with a large bandadge cloth.
> 
> ...


Ok let me put it this way, if you were sitting at a restaurant, minding your own business, enjoying your food and the company of the person you are with and someone (even someone you know) comes and stands over you while you eat, you can't tell me it wouldn't make you uncomfortable? It would and if it would make you, a more intelligent, rational thinking human being uncomfortable then please consider an animal who doesn't have the reasoning skills you do. They don't know it's just a kid and he doesn't mean any harm (though I am skeptical your son was completely innocent of any wrong doing either) they just see them as someone who might take their things. 

I would remove all treats, chews, food balls, toys etc ... From all common areas of the house and save them for when you leave or crate / bed time. I also believe that feeding time should be the time where NO ONE messes with the dog PERIOD. If you free feed, stop. Feed him twice a day in his crate or a room by himself and tell your son he is under NO circumstances to approach the dog when he has anything, even after he is "safe".

Start with the trade up game, give him a toy or chew , let him have it for a bit, then show him a super yummy treat (cubed cheese or cheap hot dogs work very well  ) show it to him as you approach him in a cheery friendly manner (example: "look what I have for you!"). 

In all honesty, alpha rolling the dog after it happened just cemented it to this dog that food + you/ your son = bad


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Alapaha_Lover said:


> That's a perfect breed for you!


I guess you were trying to insult me? Kind of pathetic considering I agree 100%... they ARE the perfect breed for me


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