# Needs to calm down around other dogs!



## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Well....we've noticed a bit of an issue that seems to be getting a little more troublesome. Caeda has too much energy even for other dogs and it bugs them....a LOT. 

We had a friend over last week with a really high energy dog, about a year and a half old. The two dogs played together for well over half an hour of pretty strenuous play. Then it was a pain....Caeda wasn't ready to stop. We'd played with her and exercised her earlier in the day too....with this dog's playing on top of it. She just wouldn't stop being pushy about instigating play, nosing and pawing etc. It earned nothing more than some irritated growling (not an expert at dog body language....but I'm positive it wasn't play growl...it said "F-off I'm done"). We tried the dogs greeting both on and off leash. Both ways were over-exuberant. 

I know many would suggest tire her out more, but I'm not really sure what more we could do to tire her. She had a good 3 or more hours worth of solid good exercise interspersed with time before and after meals. I don't see how we could exercise her more, especially on work days!

We thought about letting the two work it out a little so she might get the hint a little better, but we didn't like the potential of it getting out of hand since both dogs are big enough to do some pretty significant damage to one another if it got really serious.

I'm wondering if there are any suggestions on what to do to help with this, especially safely. Using positive reinforcement is hard, because the only true reinforcing thing for her in those situations is the other dog, and aversives.....I'm not against it, but we don't want to associate something negative with any other dogs in case it turns it from hyper exuberance into fear or aggression. 

And yes, I will openly admit, we screwed up....we did make an effort, but apparently it wasn't enough, she didn't get socialized to enough dogs often enough when she was younger. There were several, but obviously there should have been more. No going back in time though....so, what to do now?


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

When my boy starts to get over excited (and therefore pushy) around other dogs I take him out of the situation as soon as I can and do maybe 2-5 minutes of basic obedience with him. It seems to calm him down and get him back in a "zone" so that he can go back to playing with the other dogs. Perhaps that would work for Caeda too.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Good point. We took both dogs aside for a short "training session", we did manage to get SOME interest in treats and such, which did calm them both down a fair bit. The return to play didn't last long though, maybe 2 mins and she was bugging the other dog too much. 
Probably should have separated the dogs completely during this though and done some training for a little bit longer too, we just did it for fun, not as a calm down thing so with that in mind it might work out better next time..... Thanks for the suggestion


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## chubby (Aug 18, 2011)

Yes, I agree, it would be a good idea to take a play break every few minutes or so as play can go out of hand, and the other dog may react badly if it goes on too long

Butters had absolutely no manners when she first started socializing with dogs, and often went out of hand, trying to jump all over them and pawing their face, etc. She was disciplined quite a few times by older dogs who would growl, soft bite her neck, push her away, etc. For her, this was the most effective, because she wanted the other dogs to like her and play with her. I really had to pay attention to when I should allow the other dog to express their discontent, and when it would start to escalate to something more dangerous. I also would pull her away for a break if she became out of hand and got her to focus on me. When she was playing nicely with the other dog, I would reward her with praise, and throw treats in there too.

She's much better behaved now, as she approaches dogs more calmly, though she can still get riled up if it's a really fun playmate. 

In terms of her excessive energy, try doing some calming activities with her while she's at home. When she's kind of sleepy, reward her, and sit by her and brush her coat, listen to soothing music, rub her ears so she's relaxed, give her a nice massage. She'll learn that it's really nice to just stay still and receive all the petting! Maybe some lavender candles, because lavender is supposed to be a calming scent for people and dogs.

I hope this helps!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

You could check out the sticky on the rev up/cool down game. Not sure if it would help around another dog?


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Actually Sassafrass it is applicable, once the cue is generalized...it's meant to be a general impulse control game so if worked on enough, it can really make a difference when it's put on cue.

The only punishment necessary when in the situation you talk of, Caeda, is negative punishment and management. Remove the dog, have a go to mat or down stay behaviour to do. Crate her or tether her away from the other dog. It's very likely that this is not a case of you not tiring her out enough, but that she got overstimulated and just like human kids overstimulated makes for crazyenergy that is hard to control both mentally and physically. The adrenals get stressed with too much exercise or stimulation and when that happens they don't let the hormones back down for hours and in some cases days. Finding the balance between blowing off some steam prior to visits and overdoing it takes practice.

Some things you can work on training wise:
Dr. Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol, google it..its' a series of VERY BORING exercises down over a period of time that teach the dog to literally relax on cue, it looks like an extended down stay but is really more a conditioned response to a cue that can put some dogs right to sleep. Boring to do, but awesome to see. There are some vids on youtube I think and you can get the protocol on podcast as well.

Go to mat

Leave it using the LAT game (Control Unleashed)
Give me a Break (Control Unleashed)

All positive training, no permissiveness and still teaches manners. It CAN be done.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

DUH! I should be putting it on a cue, never even thought! We have LOTS of little self control games and situations during games. When we play with the laser and she gets going wild we turn it off and she automatically comes to us and goes into a down, playing tug she doesn't get to tug again until she sits (she's allowed to fidget, but not lunge or nip at it, if she's whining for it she doesn't get it until she settles). A cue would be a great thing to attach to it, although she doesn't seem to get many cues when another dog is around. She can down or sit like a pro, but if there's another dog its a bit of a guessing game. 
I did do a little bit of obedience with the two dogs, but I wasn't getting a ton of help with the second dog so I was trying to handle both and having treats involved (high value for attention). Almost had a sticky moment or two, had to treat at the same time. I gotta say though, as far as knowing commands I'm proud of Caeda, she did WAY better than the other dog! Of course the other dog is calmer with other dogs so we're not exactly coming out on top (when she gets to be the age of the other dog I'm sure she'll be doing better....but I'm not going to just wait for it to happen!). 
We put her in her crate for a little while with some great treats just to calm down, unfortunately no matter how calm she was in there as soon as she came out she was back to nuclear power. 
She does REALLY well at home with the rev-up cool down type stuff, shockingly well sometimes. Occasionally the cat will get her riled, but come to think of it we've used "down" as a cool off LOTS of times in that scenario. Still requires treats though. 

Thanks everybody! I'm going to incorporate most of this stuff into dealing with her and other dogs. A return to doggy daycare might help too...but they don't have indoor play areas and its getting pretty darn cold out! And boring or not, I'm going to find and download the podcast of the relaxation exercises, I'm SURE it'll be worth it!


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

In my novice observation, it's my opinion that most cases of over excitement are due more to self control than exercise. My dog still has some stimulus that can trigger excitement, but the excitement only happens in the presence of the stimulus. At home he curls up in his bed and sleeps all day, high energy he is not, lacking some self control yes. 

One of the basic ideas in behavior mod is to never allow dogs to get what they want by practicing impulsive behavior. That should apply to greeting other dogs, you talk about letting them greet each other on leash when they are exuberant. That to me is breaking the basic concept of getting what you want with deferential behavior. 

The other part is setting up the situation so that you can quickly and efficiently lead your dog away when his play goes over a certain threshold. A short 6 inch leash should be sufficient to lead the dog away and allow him to play uninhibited. Unless you are giving feedback, leave yourself out of it. If you talk or try to involve yourself, you may be adding to the craziness.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Great points quincong!! Yeah, her self control in many situations is remarkable, unfortunately not in all situations, so her self control exercises have to be done in more situations, including with another dog around. Its come a long way with the cats, but dogs are most literally a different beast since they potentially return the play. A 6 inch leash is a good idea too.....we usually keep her in her harness during these playtimes (including when she is off leash) for the same logic, she's easier to grab onto! We should invest in a short leash though for times we just have her in the collar. The times we tried telling her or the other dog "no" it just added to noise 

If I knew the other dog's socializing abilities better I would probably let it play out a little further....I don't want her to be hurt, but at the same time a warning nip or two might teach her something, though I do have doubts on that. She got out the other day (idiot that came by our house stood in the doorway and moved to let her past!!!) and got to the landlord's grumpy old dog. By the time we got to her she was pinned on her back and it was growling at her. She even yelped, didn't matter, as soon as she got up....BOOM she wanted more. We had to drag her away. I was actually quite shocked that he didn't bite her!

Perhaps next time the landlord's dog is just laying in the yard chilling (he does this often, and our yards are joined) I should put her on leash and approach him slowly so long as she is calm and treat her for that. A firm no when she tries to get at him would be fine and not cause problems. I would never attempt letting them play together, but at least he is an easily and continually accessible training tool and if she learns to be calm in HIS presence she'll be safer if that idiot comes by again. If I'm really lucky it'll generalize a little to other dogs (pphhhht...really lucky).


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Not sure if you've done classes with her or not, but it's a good way to get her used to the idea that she can be around other dogs and NOT have to party with them. If she only sees other dogs that she then gets to play and play and play with, then she might not know she can relax around them, if that makes sense!

Storee used to be the same way, she'd go for a playdate at the kennel (ok I'd go training, we'd go in to have a coffee and toss her into a dog run with boarding dogs to play) and she'd party, party, party then they'd all get tired and curl up to go to sleep, other than Storee who would proceed to bark at each sleeping dog (wake up! I wanna play more! WAKE UP!!!). They'd all ignore her and snooze, and eventually she'd get the hint and go do something else, like bark at something in the trees by the pond. Not the best solution but she'd get it. Now when the other dogs stop playing, she figures it out sooner and finds something else to do, or realizes she could use a nap too.


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## MuddyWaters (Aug 29, 2010)

My dog is like that, too. On top of it, she is not a good greeter on a leash. She feels restricted and it gets her frustrated. I just make her down stay until she calms down. I will have to give her more treats than usual to change the focus. I think it is a self control thing too. She is easily excitable and once she hits 10 it's hard to get her to calm down. When I go to training I get there early and practice her down stay and keep feeding her treats. I guess it may be bribing her, but it seems to work.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Bordermom said:


> Not sure if you've done classes with her or not, but it's a good way to get her used to the idea that she can be around other dogs and NOT have to party with them. If she only sees other dogs that she then gets to play and play and play with, then she might not know she can relax around them, if that makes sense!


It absolutely makes sense, I've been wanting to do classes with her practically since day one, but there are only two trainers in town. One wasn't given great reviews (though not horrible), and the other well, she said a couple of things in emails that made me question whether she is the kind of person I want around my dog never mind training her. I'm reconsidering the first trainer though ....despite the fact she doesn't have an indoor place to do classes except her home and doesn't have group sessions. She does have two dogs that she uses during training classes so they might help. I might wait until the temp is above 0 though. 

Muddywaters, I get the leash thing....Caeda is also quite frustrated by the leash, though we've been working on it. I hate watching her be so frustrated


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

MuddyWaters said:


> My dog is like that, too. On top of it, she is not a good greeter on a leash. She feels restricted and it gets her frustrated. I just make her down stay until she calms down. I will have to give her more treats than usual to change the focus. I think it is a self control thing too. She is easily excitable and once she hits 10 it's hard to get her to calm down. When I go to training I get there early and practice her down stay and keep feeding her treats. I guess it may be bribing her, but it seems to work.



The idea is to always keep your dog under threshold so she does not reach the point of frustration. You do that by keeping distance and practicing the desired behavior while the dog is still in thinking mode. You cannot do the training while the dog is over threshold because the dog cannot learn when her mind is incapable of learning. You want to slowly decrease the distance to whatever the threshold is, but you only do this if the dog is calm. It's not something you can bribe in a minute, it's a 10, 20, 30 minute, week, month process.

In real life this is hard to implement because if there is a dog approaching on the sidewalk, you cannot reasonably expect to keep distance. To deal with this, you have to be proactive in assessing threats and acting accordingly. If necessary, go to the other side of the road, turn back around, whatever. This is not chickening out, because you have a gameplan and the gameplan involves keeping your dog under threshold so you can work on training exercises. 

As you can see, I've been through this before.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

qingcong said:


> The idea is to always keep your dog under threshold so she does not reach the point of frustration. You do that by keeping distance and practicing the desired behavior while the dog is still in thinking mode. You cannot do the training while the dog is over threshold because the dog cannot learn when her mind is incapable of learning. You want to slowly decrease the distance to whatever the threshold is, but you only do this if the dog is calm. It's not something you can bribe in a minute, it's a 10, 20, 30 minute, week, month process.


The threshold thing is a tough one.....especially with her "friend" that visited the other day. That dog isn't the best socialized either and her owner isn't terribly conscious of this kind of thing and hasn't done tons of training (sit, down and come, none of which are rock solid). I might suggest to the owner that we do some obedience practice with the two dogs together...we all might benefit! I'm getting a pretty good understanding of how Caeda learns many things, but watching a different dog might give me some fresh ideas 

We did a little outing into town yesterday. Just to get groceries, my DH went into the store and I kept Caeda outside and just hung in the parking lot. She was over the threshold as soon as her paws hit the pavement. She did get relatively calm within about 5 mins though....I just had to stand there and let her tug her little brain out then she finally listened to "sit" and got a treat. After 15 mins though I had her walking in a better heel than she does at home (though for shorter times). I need to be conscious of her excitement for newness. Hopefully if we do more trips like this and do some more intensive socializing again she "might" learn a little more general calmness. I can only hope that will generalize a tiny bit into seeing new dogs too...


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## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Cool, patience is important, which it sounds like you have. The main thing though, is 100% consistency - not a single moment of fast impulsive action should be rewarded. For example, if she rushes out of the car door, you need to practice that over and over until she does it slowly. Will it guarantee that she's calm the rest of the way? No, but that one part has been conquered and further strengthens deferential behavior. 

Over time, if you are consistent enough, yes, your dog will generalize practicing calm behavior. You may need to brush up every now and then in an unfamiliar situation, but because the dog has practiced being calm everywhere else before, it will happen a lot quicker. Put in the work now and you reap the rewards later. It used to drive my gf crazy when it took me 5 minutes just to practice leading the dog out of the car, but I think she sees the benefit now.


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