# Weave Poles



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

What does everybody recommend for weave poles? I think I need to buy a set.

I don't want stick in the ground poles - I know that I'm much less likely to train this outside (and outside is distracting), especially with the winter coming up. I have enough space in my basement training area for a set of 6 and that should be plenty for now.

Here are the options I've come up with so far.

Set of 6 2x2 from Clean Run for $142. I don't know if I'm going to train 2x2 (the trainer we're working with doesn't train them that way) but it seems like it would be nice to have the option down the road. Also, seems like they would be easy to move out of the way in the basement. Do they join together in some way to make a row of 6? Is it a problem long term that the bases are all separate?
http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=2049&ParentCat=625

This was the other option. A set of 6 poles for only $60 from Agility Gear. Though looking at the picture it seems to be all PVC, which is something I could make myself. Not sure if it's ok to have PVC across the bottom? The dog shouldn't be stepping on that part anyway, right?
http://www.agilitygear.com/Weave-Poles-6-Pole-Fixed-Base-p/12030.htm

J&J and Max200 sell sets of six for $150+ which seems like a lot considering these won't get hard use. Not that much more expensive than the CleanRun 2x2's, but seems like 2x2's would be more versatile.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

There's a whole lot to consider in choosing weaves. I have 4 poles (two sets) of 2x2s to work entries. I am comfortable doing some of that work in my basement in a small space. However, I also have my 12 poles outside. The smaller your training space, the more difficult it will be to keep speed high during training. The pressure of a small space might permanently slow your weaves. Also, the real problem with weaves is teaching a dog how to do them in context, like before and after other obstacles. In a basement, they are stand-alone events which don't necessarily hold up in context.

So, I solved the question with doing both! 2x2s for indoors and 2 sets of 6 for outdoors. I would not have purchased the 2x2s if my adult-obtained dog hadn't had a serious weave-entry problem.

I always look at the poke-in-the-ground weaves and shake my head! 2 of my 3 would send them all flying! And I would never want that PVC pipe wrecking my dog's footwork. But again, I am sure they are fine for some dogs. 

Good luck on your decision!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> There's a whole lot to consider in choosing weaves. I have 4 poles (two sets) of 2x2s to work entries. I am comfortable doing some of that work in my basement in a small space. However, I also have my 12 poles outside. The smaller your training space, the more difficult it will be to keep speed high during training. The pressure of a small space might permanently slow your weaves. Also, the real problem with weaves is teaching a dog how to do them in context, like before and after other obstacles. In a basement, they are stand-alone events which don't necessarily hold up in context.
> 
> So, I solved the question with doing both! 2x2s for indoors and 2 sets of 6 for outdoors. I would not have purchased the 2x2s if my adult-obtained dog hadn't had a serious weave-entry problem.
> 
> ...


Yeah, all of this. Well, most of it.

It's not, IMO, nearly as hard to teach a dog to weave as it is to teach a dog to hit the entry with speed, coming from another obstacle and to then STAY in them, and to exit them moving toward another obstacle. Not even at 'high speed' but ANY speed. Coming to a dead stop on the course, weaving and then exiting again doesn't really work. 

So, my vote would be straight for independent standing poles on a base, if I were doing it now. If not that, stick in the ground - you aren't going to be able to work them in any real way indoors. 6 indoors might get you through this winter and teaching basics, but that's about it.

Trainingjunkie, I'm not sure what you mean about sending stick in the ground flying. I use stick in the ground and even the times Molly smacks into them while playing fetch they're not moving. When she actually weaves - well, why is the dog applying any force to the poles? I understand with some bigger dogs they're going to touch them, but from my understanding the dog shouldn't be 'shouldering them out of the way' or really hitting them with any force. Maybe I've just got better ground


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The problem with going straight outdoors is 1) in one week it will be too dark and too cold to do anything outside until snow melts in April/May. So then no point in getting anything since we'll be moving around then anyway and I can buy something after we move. 2) I don't think I can teach this outside anyway. Outdoors is way too high arousal for Watson to be able to actually think about a new skill, so he's going to have to learn the basics indoors either way. Don't forget that we have classes and actual training facilities too. If I can teach the basics at home, then we can use our time in class to actually work on speed and adding in other obstacles. I doubt we have the space to really do that outside in our tiny agility area anyway (it's only 40'x40'). 

So basically, to summarize my original I want 6 poles that I can use indoors or out, but right now indoors is the priority. My main question is: can a set of 2x2's go outside and function as a set of 6 poles later? Or will I need another full set of 6 to go outdoors?

ETA: I guess the answer is get the 2x2s now because those will be most useful for the inside work. And then hope they can transition outside later.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The 2X2s from Clean-Run attach to each other and become one set of 6.

Though honestly 40X40 IS big enough to add obstacles before and after - an actual whole ring for agility and a full course is only 100X100. Which is, yeah, bigger but even 12 poles and something before and after will fit in a 40X40 ring. I get Watson's arousal issues and agree that starting out basics inside is a thing, especially as it gets dark, but you DO have the space in there to work outside in your own area. That might actually be bigger than mine. 

And, disclaimer: I realize that you're not serious about competing in agility, and that's MORE than valid and okay. I mean, heck, without worrying about time you probably CAN stop cold and then weave and restart if you want with it being no big deal. - this is just a heads up, if you care. Take it or leave it, not trying to be lectury  Just share experience. 

Lessons/practices once or twice a week isn't going to cut it for weaves. I have zero contact equipment - that's fine. I can work that at agility practices and lessons and have once a week and be okay. I can go WEEKS without dragging out the other equipment I do have - tunnels, jumps, hoops, whatever. You probably are not going to be able to teach the entries/speed/staying in with a weekly lesson and otherwise working it more slowly at home. It's just really hard and a matter of muscle memory. 

By all means start where you want, work as you want, just don't expect weekly or biweekly work with a trainer to cover the context and speed issues with them. That's all. It is the one case where I've truly found 'you have to work it at home and have to have the equipment at home' to be really true. Because it's such an unnatural behavior and based so completely on muscle memory and falls apart/causes stress so easily.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> The 2X2s from Clean-Run attach to each other and become one set of 6.


Ok, great. Yeah, that was kind of what I was wondering - if anybody had used them later as a full set of 6. Seems reasonable to me, but I could also see people saying "don't do it! they are flimsy and don't stay together!" or something along those lines.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Ok, great. Yeah, that was kind of what I was wondering - if anybody had used them later as a full set of 6. Seems reasonable to me, but I could also see people saying "don't do it! they are flimsy and don't stay together!" or something along those lines.


Nah, they're actually 'stake-able' so you should be pretty good to go.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Cool! The 2x2s seem like a good option then for anything I might need them to do. 

I'm sure my time using them in the basement will be limited, but I know that if I don't get poles of my own and put in the time that we won't make any progress on them in class ever (at least Watson won't, though Hazel could when she's at that point)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm possibly a little gun-shy about weaves right now, but those suckers are hard. The basic 'go in and out of the poles' isn't such a big deal, even though the motion is unnatural. The finding the right entrance, staying in them and figuring out the collection and rhythm and footwork they need to put into place to really do them well is just plain hard. I don't even think it's that the concept is difficult for dogs. I think it's because they rely on the dog developing the muscle memory to do them and to be able to accurately judge how to collect and alter their gait on all kinds of variables. It's at the point where, as far as I'm concerned, teaching weaves well is about as complicated as the whole rest of the course, shrank down and encapsulated in one, apparently easy looking obstacle. 

But I'm just babbling at you now


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

CptJack: Though not desirable, Gator has broken weave polls in half on 3 separate occasions. I don't think the "stick on the ground" ones would be a useful choice for him! 

And Mahto barely fits in them. He touches them constantly. I want him used to the feel of poles that don't bend away from his face. See how much even the regular weaves move with him in them?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

But to answer the original question, I think you will be very happy with the versatility of 2x2s. A great choice. Happy training!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, that's very similar to how Molly fits in them - your dog has about an inch on her and is a little lighter and therefore probably leggier, but those two are close (we talked about it once before) - she's 20" and 37-38lbs.

Honestly, my stick in the ground poles move LESS than the regulation poles. I don't know. Maybe it's the ground they're in, but they're ATTACHED (glued with PVC glue) to the base that's on a 4-6" threaded screw thing sank entirely into the ground. They're just not going anywhere. I'm not saying that they'll work for you! Just that I can't wrap my head around mine being more mobile or inclined to break than the ones on a base, where the base has a what, 2" post up inside the pole itself? Though, granted, the poles themselves aren't PVC on the 'real' kind and therefore probably less bendy?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I'm possibly a little gun-shy about weaves right now, but those suckers are hard. The basic 'go in and out of the poles' isn't such a big deal, even though the motion is unnatural. The finding the right entrance, staying in them and figuring out the collection and rhythm and footwork they need to put into place to really do them well is just plain hard. I don't even think it's that the concept is difficult for dogs. I think it's because they rely on the dog developing the muscle memory to do them and to be able to accurately judge how to collect and alter their gait on all kinds of variables. It's at the point where, as far as I'm concerned, teaching weaves well is about as complicated as the whole rest of the course, shrank down and encapsulated in one, apparently easy looking obstacle.
> 
> But I'm just babbling at you now


I guess, even more so, this is why I feel like I need some at home. A couple minutes once a week, in an environment Watson is not really able to learn in, isn't going to get us anywhere. Even if I'm not entirely sure what I'm doing just yet, at least we'll be getting started and working on the steps.

I'm not completely sure about the method our instructor uses, because she didn't give it a name, but she doesn't use any physical guides (no wave-o-matics, which our previous beginner classes used, and no channels). She described it as teaching entrances and exits, and then back chaining it together. Which sounds similar to the 2x2 stuff I've seen, though more lure heavy than shaping based on the first steps we learned last night. So I think it will work well with true 2x2 training if I decide to go that route. 

Watson needs very step by step instructions. I don't think it will be at all as easy as you think to teach him the basic behavior  Though once he has it we will be able to take it into class and build on it from there adding speed, distance, etc. But I'm expecting a couple weeks of quiet work in the basement.

Hazel, I have no idea. I half expect her to learn the first two poles and then figure the rest of it out herself. LOL But then she will be the one moving so fast that she pops in and out of poles without even noticing.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> But to answer the original question, I think you will be very happy with the versatility of 2x2s. A great choice. Happy training!


Great! Glad they have the DF agility people's seal of approval  It can be so hard to figure out which equipment is worth buying and which you will use once and then trade in for something bigger/better/nicer.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, that's very similar to how Molly fits in them - your dog has about an inch on her and is a little lighter and therefore probably leggier, but those two are close (we talked about it once before) - she's 20" and 37-38lbs.
> 
> Honestly, my stick in the ground poles move LESS than the regulation poles. I don't know. Maybe it's the ground they're in, but they're ATTACHED (glued with PVC glue) to the base that's on a 4-6" threaded screw thing sank entirely into the ground. They're just not going anywhere. I'm not saying that they'll work for you! Just that I can't wrap my head around mine being more mobile or inclined to break than the ones on a base, where the base has a what, 2" post up inside the pole itself? Though, granted, the poles themselves aren't PVC on the 'real' kind and therefore probably less bendy?


I have discovered why we aren't agreeing on this. My original "stick in the ground" weaves were ordinary poles with a 4 inch bolt attached to the bottom. You just press them into the ground and when you're done, you just lift them up and put them away. Super-duper flimsy. We aren't talking about the same weaves!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> I have discovered why we aren't agreeing on this. My original "stick in the ground" weaves were ordinary poles with a 4 inch bolt attached to the bottom. You just press them into the ground and when you're done, you just lift them up and put them away. Super-duper flimsy. We aren't talking about the same weaves!



Oh. No. Those are not at all what I have (clearly - I already described them  Ie: Edit to remove more of that). I CAN move the poles I have but they're a serious pain - part of why I ultimately changed. Those things you're talking about would work for Kylie maybe but absolutely not a bigger dog, I wouldn't think. Certainly not Molly!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Yeah, that's why we're talking around each other!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> Yeah, that's why we're talking around each other!


Yes! I'm glad we figured it out!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

One more totally invaluable piece of indoor equipment is a flat board like the one on the teeter. You can work and proof stopped contacts all winter long without the need for contact equipment. It's awesome.


And Two Jumps with the book, One Jump Two Jump. And/or Tracy Sklenar's 30 games for building commitment ( A course at Agility U.)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> One more totally invaluable piece of indoor equipment is a flat board like the one on the teeter. You can work and proof stopped contacts all winter long without the need for contact equipment. It's awesome.


Just made one of those a few weeks ago  I think it's a 12x1 board, 8ft? long, with a PVC fulcrum. Have a wobble board too.



> And Two Jumps with the book, One Jump Two Jump. And/or Tracy Sklenar's 30 games for building commitment ( A course at Agility U.)


I have a bunch of homemade of jumps (8 or so?) and a tunnel. I'll have to check out that book. I watched Susan Garrett's One Jump video and it was good, though I'd already seen a lot of the exercises between in-person classes and the FDSA handling classes so it didn't give us too much additional information. I'd like a book better anyway - videos are nice but unless I take pages and pages of notes I kind of lose it over time. I retain books better and can go back and look at stuff again. I can rent the video too through Bow Wow Flix


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

The Tracy Sklenar thing is an on-line class. The book for "One Jump, Two Jump" is just a flimsy binder-type book but is a nice reference. You're right, BowWow has the video. I found it nearly too dry to watch!

For the board, there is no fulcrum. It's simply flat on the ground. It's what Nancy G. Little uses when she teaches Impulse Control for the Agility Dog. I took the class 2 or 3 times. Worth every penny. Saved my dogs a ton of wear and tear. I also had one with a tipping point, but I lent is to someone and never saw it again.

A single wing (for a winged jump, but free-standing) is really nice for teaching wraps and sends and back-sides. Lots of handling choices without the impact of the actual jump. Essentially it works like a cone in "fly" but is a better prop for an agility dog.

I sure wish I had your space! That would be awesome!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I like 2x2s best but I have 3 sets of 2x2s and then 12 stick in the ground. I find I use the 2x2s most often. I like that they are easy peasy to use as channel weaves as well. I don't do the strict '2x2' method but I use 2x2s for entrances and then switch to channels.

I know people who do weaves indoors just fine. I have only worked entrances- it's hard with Hank but I think it'd be fine for other dogs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hank has broken poles as well weaving. But those have been when I stuck the stick in the ground poles on the 2x2s. The stick in the ground are cheap though so no big deal. I just have having to always measure them.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> The Tracy Sklenar thing is an on-line class. The book for "One Jump, Two Jump" is just a flimsy binder-type book but is a nice reference. You're right, BowWow has the video. I found it nearly too dry to watch!


Good to know before I rent it! I like the idea of a simple book that lists everything out. For videos I'm more of a concept person - like Michael Ellis videos are concept driven so I learn things. But when they get super specific I watch, understand it, and then forget immediately after. lol And taking notes is hard work and they're usually a mess.



> For the board, there is no fulcrum. It's simply flat on the ground. It's what Nancy G. Little uses when she teaches Impulse Control for the Agility Dog. I took the class 2 or 3 times. Worth every penny. Saved my dogs a ton of wear and tear. I also had one with a tipping point, but I lent is to someone and never saw it again.


Ahh! I see. That would be even easier. I think Hazel will need that class at some point. She is going to be a wild child. Funny enough, Watson, the wild child in regular life, is very steady at agility. Too handler focused and risk averse to be running all over the place or acting impulsively. Funny how completely different they are.



> A single wing (for a winged jump, but free-standing) is really nice for teaching wraps and sends and back-sides. Lots of handling choices without the impact of the actual jump. Essentially it works like a cone in "fly" but is a better prop for an agility dog.


I really need to build a wing! I look at DIY ideas and then never get around to it. We probably have all of the PVC already left over from making the jumps.



> I sure wish I had your space! That would be awesome!


If only it were fenced in! 10 acres isn't that useful when only 40'x40' is fenced. It doesn't make sense to spend money to fence in a field we can't even see from our house (the house has a tiny yard surrounded by woods). When we move in the spring we're definitely getting a house with land that is fence-able and installing a fence right away, and then I can do all of the agility stuff I want. The basement is nice though for indoor training - we have a matted area of ~13'x10', plus extra space around that that isn't matted. If nothing else it's great to let the dogs rip around and play without hurting themselves on the slippery kitchen floors or slamming into furniture.


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