# The Sport of Conformation



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I'd really like to discuss the finer points of the sport of conformation on the forum, as it is a largely misunderstood venue. But rather than just going on a long diatribe about the whole thing, I'd really like to start by asking those of you who do not exhibit in the sport (and particularly those of you not really familiar with it) what YOU think conformation exhibition is and what it entails.

This is a sport that is near and dear to my heart, and I really wish there were more people who understood what was going on. I of course am not asking anybody to agree with any one opinion. People often mistake asking for understanding for asking for agreement, and they are not the same. Understanding can at least bring an appreciation for a certain topic, as knowledge is empowering.

What questions do you have about conformation? What is it you'd like to understand better? Anybody out there that is interested in participating in this venue some day?


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

I don't know much about conformation, and I'm interested in learning.

First, what conformation is to me... I'd say that the ring is the place where a dog gets judged, according to the standard of his breed, on its physical qualities, its movement and to some extend, its sociability to humans and to dogs. Please enlighten me if I'm wrong!

I also have a few questions. You are calling it conformation a sport; what exactly makes it a sport?

Do the dogs, at least yours, enjoy being in the ring? Do you personally enjoy it?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

This should be a good conversation. I don't know much, but I'm always interested in learning more.

_[W]hat [do] YOU think conformation exhibition is and what it entails?_
My understanding is that conformation is the formal comparison of specific dogs to the appropriate breed standard where the breed standard describes the ideal structure, movement, and - to some extent - temperament of a breed. Dogs in the ring aren't necessarily compared to each other, rather they are compared to the standard; in that way it's more like a criterion-referenced assessment as opposed to a norm-referenced assessment.

_What questions do you have about conformation? _
I'd be interested in a Dog Show 101-type explanation: How are points awarded? What are the "other" titles and competitions (e.g., bred by, select dog/bitch, open, novice) and how do they fit into the big picture? 

_What is it you'd like to understand better? _
Behind the scenes activities and judging.

_Anybody out there that is interested in participating in this venue some day? _
I'm too old to start such an intensive hobby. 

Someone I know from a breed-specific forum wrote a great piece about how showing dogs in conformation is an excellent test of temperament.* The dogs need to be adaptable to multiple environments, must work well in close proximity to strange people and dogs, need to perform under stress, and need to be good representatives of the breed. I wish she'd post in on her web site because it really explains why conformation showing is important for people who want "just a pet."

* This, of course, assumes that the breeder uses this type of information in breeding decisions.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I'd like a dogs-101 on the workings of dog shows too.  

For me, conformation exhibition is no more than a necessity for people who want to breed their dogs. In order to breed, you need to know if your dog conforms to breed standard. So you need to get your dog judged either at a club match or a dog show. 

I don't consider it much of a sport, though I suppose if you really enjoy showing and do it often, it's as much of a sport as agility or schutzhund or you name it. 

Questions on my part: how impartial are judges? If a judge has a choice between two dogs; 
One dog is wonderful and is handled and owned by a renowned breeder. The judge is not personally involved with this breeder, but certainly knows who the breeder is. 
The other dog is even more wonderful and is handled by a private owner that doesn't breed, but shows for sport. The judge has no idea who this person is. 

Would the judge purely look at the dog? Or does the handler make a difference in the final judgement? 

I would like to take a shot at conformation showing at some point in the future. Just to see what it's truly like.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm interested to see the responses to this thread, and hear what Xeph has to say. 

I technically show in conformation, and you were looking for people with no experience, but I've been to less than 10 shows now with only one dog, so I'm very much a newbie figuring things out. 

To me, the purpose of a conformation show is to evaluate dogs as potential breeding prospects, by comparing them to the standard for the breed. A Ch title means that the dog is a reasonably good example of its breed. It's also somewhat of a temperament test as the dog needs to be comfortable in a chaotic environment and ok with strange people going over it. In some breeds I likely wouldn't breed to a dog who wasn't a finished champion (unless there were special circumstances), but in others I find the Ch title less meaningful, such as in some working breeds, or very popular breeds where it can be hard to finish any dog who doesn't fit the current trend. 

My personal feelings about conformation shows are mixed. In my breed at least, I do think it's meaningful to have that Ch title and the least someone can do before breeding (unless, like I mentioned, there are some special circumstances - Watson's grandfather actually doesn't have his Ch title, but there are good reasons). I don't love competing, mostly because it's a long day of driving around and preparing, for only 2 minutes of ring time, and it feels very subjective. If my dog didn't like it as much as he does, and if he wasn't winning as much as he has so far, I probably wouldn't bother showing. I do appreciate the amount of socialization it has provided for him and that it's a good forum to meet other people in my breed and see other dogs.

ETA: I do actually have some questions for Xeph, specifically about sweepstakes, veterans, and other special classes. As I understand it there are no points at stake, so what's the purpose? Just to evaluate puppies or seniors against each other? Also, what are futurities, specialties, and supported entries? I only have a vague understanding of most of these terms.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

cookieface said:


> I'd be interested in a Dog Show 101-type explanation: How are points awarded? What are the "other" titles and competitions (e.g., bred by, select dog/bitch, open, novice) and how do they fit into the big picture?


Wanna note that what I will be writing pertains to AKC shows, other venues and countries do things differently. 

Conformation showing is basically a tier system. You start out in your respective class (The age classes, Amateur Owner Handler, Bred By, Am bred, Open, Novice, etc). The winners from each of those class for dogs and bitches (dogs judged against dogs, bitches against bitches) at the end of the class judging which is the Open class. So after all the dogs are done judging the Open dog stays in the ring and the rest are called back in. The judge will then do one last look over, movement and may even pull two or three out for comparison. Then he/she will pick their winner, and that is the dog that gets the points (will discuss that in a little bit). If by chance that the class the winner came from had more than one dog in it, the second place dog (most times) will be called back in for reserve winners. 

And the judge will pick from the remaining dogs for reserve. Reserve Winners dog does not get any points but if for any reason the winners dog was DQ afterwards, the reserve would get those points. Reserve Winners can also get points at a National specialty now, if it draws double what a certain breed needs for a 5 point major. The same thing is done with the bitches after they are shown. 

Next will be what is called Best of Breed competition, where all the specials (champions) are entered will come in to be judged, the winners dog and bitch will come in also and compete for Best of Winners, and quite possibly either breed or best of opposite sex. Once all the specials are judged the judge will pick their winners. 

So say Breed went to Special A and it is a dog special, therefor BOS would have to go to Special B (the bitch) or the Class Bitch. The judge could also give BOW to the class dog instead of the class bitch even if they class bitch goes BOS. The only time one class bitch/dog would automatically get BOW is if it was given it or they go BOB. 

So if class dog went BOW and the class bitch went BOS, Special C (another dog) would go Select Dog, and Special B would go Select Bitch. The Select placings are new, and they go with the GCH title. Basically in this scenario BOB and the two Selects would get points toward their Grand CH and the upper levels if they are already a GCH. The two classes would not be able to get GCH points but would rather get maybe more CH points depending on if the there were more bitches, enough that the bitch point was more, there for BOW dog would get that amount of points, if BOS bitch beat enough specials to up her points she would get that. 

After breed judging is done, there is what is called Group judging, where the BOB winners from each breed in that group (Sporting, Hound, Terrier, Working, Non Sporting, Toy, and Herding). Lots of times your group judge will be the same judge who judged you in breed competition, not always. Here the judge is still judging you on your standard but is also judging you against the other breeds. You can have dogs and bitches in this at the same time (very fun with bitches in heat lol), it all depends on which wins the breed. The way the judge judges the group is really up to them, lots of times if they have seen all the breeds they won't really do a full examination, just a recap basically. Or they will examine them again, cause maybe they forgot (there are a lot of old judges). 

In the end the judge will pick out upwards of maybe 9 for what is called a cut, the best of the group (not all judges do this again up to them). They will send the remaining dogs that didn't make the cut out of the ring. She/He will them give each of these dogs one last look. Out of those 9, they would pick four for their placements. 

After all the groups are done, the winners from each group will come back in for Best in Show. Where they will be judged one last time, almost always by a new judge. This judge will run them through what ever pattern they want to decide which is the best. In the end the judge will go to their book (each judge has a judges book that they write their winners down in, and they get a new book for each competition they judge (breed, group, BIS, etc)), they will write who gets BIS and who gets Reserve BIS (new to AKC), and then will proceed to thank the exhibitors for presenting great dogs to them etc. She/He will then (sometimes not always) bring out the two they want the most to the front, and will hand out to Breed A the Reserve (almost always the reserve is presented first) and to Breed B the BIS ribbon. 

Then the day is over and the next day starts a new. 


Now on to the points system. 

Each breed has what is called a point schedule that tells you how many of each dog/bitch you need for a certain amount of points. The country is broken up into divisions, I am in division 3, Xeph/Elrohwen/Finkie are in division 2, Johnny in division 4. Each division has their own point schedule and lots of times you need more/less in each for certain points per breed. It takes less bitch weims in my division for a 3 point major than in Johnny's division. 

Here is the breakdown for my breeds in my division

Weimaraners

For Dogs: 1 point takes 2 dogs, 2 points takes 4, 3 points takes 6, 4 points takes 7, 5 points takes 11
For Bitches: 1 point takes 2, 2 points takes 5, 3 points takes 7, 4 points takes 11, 5 points takes 16

Bulldogs

For Dogs: 1 point takes 2, 2 points takes 8, 3 points takes 13, 4 points takes 18, 5 points takes 25
For Bitches: 1 point takes 2, 2 points takes 8, 3 points takes 14, 4 points takes 21, 5 points takes 34

Now as you can see, it takes more bulldogs to make majors (3-5 points), than it does weims. That is because the point schedule is directly correlated to how many dogs/bitches are registered and how many litters are born/registered in a certain area during the year. More dogs registered during year A, the point schedule will go up in year B. But the schedules at least for my breed have been going down to more reasonable amounts. 

A dogs needs 15 points where two of those times were majors under two different judges (the one major doesn't count if they were both won under the same judge). Some dogs finish with all major wins, some don't. BB finished with two 3 point majors a few two point wins and majority 1 point wins. 

For the Grand CH, it is a little different and a little confusing to explain, so I will only say what you need. 25 points and 3 majors where all the majors coming from different judges, plus one other point needs to be awarded by another judge, you also have to beat out other champions 3 times. The amount of points given is also determined by your point schedule, but the calculations vary by which award you are given. 

The amount of points given two each at a show depends on how many actually show up. So say we have 7 bitches in weims entered at a show, right on the dot no cushion. And only 6 show up, the major is broken. Now if the major holds in dogs, and the bitch goes BOW, the bitch would also get a major. 

I may be missing something because I have lost my train of thought lol.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

I don't really have much experience with showing. I know that there are some new classes in the AKC, such as the owner/handler class. I have a friend who is really into that new class, although I've been told alot of the pro's show their own dogs there which kind of defeats the purpose. 

The point schedule, just to answer some questions, varies by region (which is usually three bordering states) and is posted by the AKC sometime in May or April. The point schedule is basically just how many dogs or bitches it takes to get a point, two points, a major, etc. In order to finish a dog, you have to have a total of 15 points, including two majors. A major is a win that is at least three points and goes up to five points. 

You can't get more then five points at a show. 

If all the dogs don't show up, majors can be broken which is frustrating. 

Dog shows are subjective in the sense that it's the opinion of one judge. But, if a dog is put up consistantly over different judges and at different shows, it's assumed there is quality there. At least enough to potentially breed. 

It is possible to get excused from the ring; a lame dog or bad temperament can get you excused. 

On a personal note, I feel it's important for dogs in my breed to be well rounded. I think titles need to be on both ends of the name. 

We never did any "fun" matches or anything like that. Those are just to get practice and learn ring proceedure and get the dog used to the show atmosphere. I wouldn't take a win at a fun match seriously, but that's me.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Avie said:


> Questions on my part: how impartial are judges? If a judge has a choice between two dogs;
> One dog is wonderful and is handled and owned by a renowned breeder. The judge is not personally involved with this breeder, but certainly knows who the breeder is.
> The other dog is even more wonderful and is handled by a private owner that doesn't breed, but shows for sport. The judge has no idea who this person is.
> 
> Would the judge purely look at the dog? Or does the handler make a difference in the final judgement?


The Jury is out on that debate lol. Some people will tell you judges never look up, always look at the right side of the leash. But I have been in this long enough to tell you, with certain judges that is just a blatant lie. There are judges that we like to refer to as face judges, they only look at the wrong side of the leash, even if the best dog is being shown by the faceless (newbies, owner handlers, new breeders, etc). Now not all judges are like this, but for every impartial do the right thing judge, there are probably two face judges. At least in my area, which is why a lot of clubs around here are hiring judges from a far. There are certain judges that certain clubs will never hire, for one reason or another.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> The Jury is out on that debate lol. Some people will tell you judges never look up, always look at the right side of the leash. But I have been in this long enough to tell you, with certain judges that is just a blatant lie. There are judges that we like to refer to as face judges, they only look at the wrong side of the leash, even if the best dog is being shown by the faceless (newbies, owner handlers, new breeders, etc). Now not all judges are like this, but for every impartial do the right thing judge, there are probably two face judges. At least in my area, which is why a lot of clubs around here are hiring judges from a far. There are certain judges that certain clubs will never hire, for one reason or another.


In my limited experience, I agree with this. I remember going into the ring against a dog who was supposed to be shown by a super big name handler (won Westminster a few years ago) and my breeder said "You know, don't expect to win this one because this guy is a big name." The dog was actually shown by the handler's assistant, and we did beat him one day out of two, but that big handler won the breed both days with the special bitch he personally showed. Was she actually the best dog in the ring? Personally, I didn't think so, but she was a nice dog and very well presented. 

There's another judge who breeds Welshies and some people in the breed say he is biased to dogs from certain lines. Does he just think they are nicer dogs? Or is he biased because he is friends with those breeders? Who knows.

So I think it happens, I think there are politics, but I think most judges do try to make the right decision. IMO, the reason the big handlers win so much is because they present the dogs very nicely - they are groomed to perfection, in great condition, and well trained. Maybe the dog standing next to them has nicer conformation and is presented decently, but sometimes it's hard to look past that perfect grooming job and well trained dog to put up the one with slightly better conformation. In breeds where grooming is especially important, this becomes even more of a factor I think.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

*Chaos*, Thank you for the detailed explanation! I'll have to read more thoroughly when I'm not at work.



TheOtherCorgi said:


> I don't really have much experience with showing. I know that there are some new classes in the AKC, such as the owner/handler class. I have a friend who is really into that new class, although I've been told alot of the pro's show their own dogs there which kind of defeats the purpose.


This comment raises another question: Where is the line between professional and amateur handler? Is anyone other than the breeder considered a professional handler? What if the breeder also shows dogs for a limited number of other people? Would that disqualify a breeder from showing in the owner/handler class?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> I don't really have much experience with showing. I know that there are some new classes in the AKC, such as the owner/handler class. I have a friend who is really into that new class, although I've been told alot of the pro's show their own dogs there which kind of defeats the purpose.


The owner handler series is not really a class, but a separate competition. On your entry form their is a box to check to say you are owner handler eligible. If an owner handler does not go breed, BOW, BOS, Selects, then the eligible dogs come back/stay in the ring to compete again. The owner handler series has their own groups and BIS (no reserve), much like other special attractions.

Technically you can not accept any money/pass rate cards/etc if you are competing in this series. Sure some have slipped in, but AKC is cracking down on it. At least one person in weims has had their Owner handler points stripped from them for violating the rules. I did it for the first year and half, but now that I am actively seeking clients, I have stopped.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> *Chaos*, Thank you for the detailed explanation! I'll have to read more thoroughly when I'm not at work.
> 
> 
> 
> This comment raises another question: Where is the line between professional and amateur handler? Is anyone other than the breeder considered a professional handler? What if the breeder also shows dogs for a limited number of other people? Would that disqualify a breeder from showing in the owner/handler class?


Chaos can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding that to be a professional handler, you have to accept money for showing the dog.

There is a large Welshie kennel that does very very well, and the daughter has been showing their dogs since she was a junior. She shows a lot of Welshies for other people (often dogs she has bred, but not always), but is not considered a professional because she doesn't make money from it. Her skill level and the time she puts in practically makes her a professional, but she is still considered an amateur. So someone other than the breeder or owner can handle the dog as an "agent" but it doesn't make them a pro if they haven't accepted payment.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> So I think it happens, I think there are politics, but I think most judges do try to make the right decision. *IMO, the reason the big handlers win so much is because they present the dogs very nicely - they are groomed to perfection, in great condition, and well trained. *Maybe the dog standing next to them has nicer conformation and is presented decently, but sometimes it's hard to look past that perfect grooming job and well trained dog to put up the one with slightly better conformation. In breeds where grooming is especially important, this becomes even more of a factor I think.


I was just going to ask this question: Do the top handlers win because they are well known or is it because they "show" well as Elrohwen described. I remember being at the poodle club national last year and the professional handlers and their dogs just looked more polished and, in some cases, the dogs looked happier. For example, one dog/handler pair looked as though they were floating around the ring - both looked confident and poised. Another dog/handler pair looked less graceful and a bit more dour.

ETA: Thanks Chaos and Elrohwen for the amateur / professional distinction.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

cookieface said:


> I was just going to ask this question: Do the top handlers win because they are well known or is it because they "show" well as Elrohwen described. I remember being at the poodle club national last year and the professional handlers and their dogs just looked more polished and, in some cases, the dogs looked happier. For example, one dog/handler pair looked as though they were floating around the ring - both looked confident and poised. Another dog/handler pair looked less graceful and a bit more dour.
> 
> ETA: Thanks Chaos and Elrohwen for the amateur / professional distinction.


It's both. Pros do this for a living, the dogs they show live with them for the duration of their show career (for the most part, some accept at ring pick ups). Quite a few times after their show careers end, the handlers get to keep those special dogs that they win a lot with, just because those dogs have been so attached and so are the handlers. Pros can also show dogs they own or bred along with their client dogs, but will often hand off their own dogs to their assistants and take the client dog in if conflicts arise. Pros can not enter in the Amateur Owner Handler class (not to be confused with the Owner Handler series, which they also can't enter in).

Now I have been showing for 14 years now, and their are certain judges that recognize me, more stewards do than judges lol. I have beaten the pros that have been at it longer than me, and I have lost as well. It's not impossible to beat a pro. I have beaten more long time well known breeders than I can count on my two hands. And I have lost as well. It really depends on the judge. Like this past weekend. BB was probably the best special in the ring, but I only won BOB one day.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think it's probably a fun sport for people who like that kind of thing. I don't think it's any more useful for someone wanting a good pet than asking a model train fanatic what kind of toy train to buy for your kid.
The main thing that ruins it for me is that, say you have a Rottweiler who is THE most perfect Rott in the world conformationally and tempermentally speaking. But his tail was docked to the wrong length (as I understand it, this is a major fault to the point of basically being a disqualification). He isn't going to win, even though he is perfect and a bad dock has nothing to do with anything. That kind of relegates the whole thing to a beauty contest for me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> I was just going to ask this question: Do the top handlers win because they are well known or is it because they "show" well as Elrohwen described. I remember being at the poodle club national last year and the professional handlers and their dogs just looked more polished and, in some cases, the dogs looked happier. For example, one dog/handler pair looked as though they were floating around the ring - both looked confident and poised. Another dog/handler pair looked less graceful and a bit more dour.
> 
> ETA: Thanks Chaos and Elrohwen for the amateur / professional distinction.


I went to a two day seminar by Greg Strong, and it was really cool to watch him work with the dogs. He took a Catahoula who hated to show (that's why the owner was there) and made him look fantastic in about 5 minutes. He was really able to tap into the dog and get him happy and motivated, instead of nervous. That dog floated across the room when Greg had the leash, and then the owner took the leash and he just kind of shrank into himself again. He also told us a lot about what goes into conditioning and training the dogs he campaigns at a high level. I go to a couple handling classes, bath and groom my dog only the day before the show, and pretty much just show up - the professional handlers put so much more work into it.

Personally, I think at the breed level, in the classes especially, the best dog deserves to win, whether it's presented beautifully or not. As long as it's groomed appropriately and reasonably trained, the decision should be based on conformation, movement, and temperament - not how well trimmed the dog is, or how perfectly it can freestack. At the BOB level and especially beyond, I think those things become more important.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Whistlejacket said:


> Do the dogs, at least yours, enjoy being in the ring? Do you personally enjoy it?


My dogs do enjoy it, and I enjoy it as well. I would be crazy to keep doing this if I didn't enjoy it lol. I personally would not show a dog that did not enjoy being in the ring, it is just not fair to the dog.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> The main thing that ruins it for me is that, say you have a Rottweiler who is THE most perfect Rott in the world conformationally and tempermentally speaking. But his tail was docked to the wrong length (as I understand it, this is a major fault to the point of basically being a disqualification). He isn't going to win, even though he is perfect and a bad dock has nothing to do with anything. That kind of relegates the whole thing to a beauty contest for me.


That kind of stuff really depends on the particular breed and its standard. I feel comfortable that my breed standard doesn't have a lot of "arbitrary" cosmetic faults. Tail length isn't important (can be docked or not), pattern doesn't matter, they only come in one color (genetically they can't throw other colors either), feathering should be moderate, trimming should look natural, etc. For some breeds, that's not the case. If a dog had one small cosmetic fault, but was otherwise exceptional, I wouldn't feel that the Ch title was necessary to breed.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Chaos can correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding that to be a professional handler, you have to accept money for showing the dog.


Basically yes, they do this for a living.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Whistlejacket said:


> Do the dogs, at least yours, enjoy being in the ring? Do you personally enjoy it?


I forgot to comment on this. Personally, I am fairly neutral about being in the ring. I don't hate it, but I don't love it either. Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's a long exhausting day. I do it as a commitment to my breeder, and to the breed itself, and to meet others in the breed.

My dog, however, loves it. He loves to be the center of attention, he loves to trot around the ring, and he likes being in high energy places with lots of stuff to see. A big part of the reason he has done well is that he sparkles in the ring and looks thrilled to be there. His basic attitude is "Omg you guys, this is so much FUN! Are you having fun? I'm having fun."


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I went to a two day seminar by Greg Strong, and it was really cool to watch him work with the dogs. He took a Catahoula who hated to show (that's why the owner was there) and made him look fantastic in about 5 minutes. He was really able to tap into the dog and get him happy and motivated, instead of nervous. That dog floated across the room when Greg had the leash, and then the owner took the leash and he just kind of shrank into himself again. He also told us a lot about what goes into conditioning and training the dogs he campaigns at a high level. I go to a couple handling classes, bath and groom my dog only the day before the show, and pretty much just show up - the professional handlers put so much more work into it.


Katie's groomer is a (professional, I believe) handler. She's amazing with the dogs both in and out of the ring. They look at her with such adoration and she at them. They're amazing to watch.



> Personally, I think at the breed level, in the classes especially, the best dog deserves to win, whether it's presented beautifully or not. As long as it's groomed appropriately and reasonably trained, the decision should be based on conformation, movement, and temperament - not how well trimmed the dog is, or how perfectly it can freestack. At the BOB level and especially beyond, I think those things become more important.


Interesting point. I, too, think the best dog should win, but I know it can be hard to overlook things like style and grace. Training for judges should include how to focus on substance and minimize fluff. At higher levels, where all dogs meet the standard to a certain extent, I can see how presentation would be more important.



Willowy said:


> The main thing that ruins it for me is that, say you have a Rottweiler who is THE most perfect Rott in the world conformationally and tempermentally speaking. But his tail was docked to the wrong length (as I understand it, this is a major fault to the point of basically being a disqualification). He isn't going to win, even though he is perfect and a bad dock has nothing to do with anything. That kind of relegates the whole thing to a beauty contest for me.


I think this would be when the breeder would find another way to prove the dog and/or breed despite the non-genetic cosmetic flaw. 

Poodles have a few seemingly arbitrary conditions in the standard relating to color and grooming. I think poodles would be more popular if the breed club would permit more reasonable trims (e.g., retriever, lamb) and there would be less temptation to cheat the system with dye and filler hair.



> I do actually have some questions for Xeph, specifically about sweepstakes, veterans, and other special classes. As I understand it there are no points at stake, so what's the purpose? Just to evaluate puppies or seniors against each other? Also, what are futurities, specialties, and supported entries? I only have a vague understanding of most of these terms.


Please don't forget Elohwen's questions.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Now I will discuss some of the special attractions that I have not discussed already. 

Some clubs will hold what are called special attractions, just added incentives for people to enter. It's another tier system with them. 

*Best Bred-By competition:*

In this the dogs entered in the bred-by class (therefor are being shown by their breeders) compete for best bred by in breed. If the bred by dog and bred by bitch go winners they continue to compete for the best. Which ever one goes BOW in this scenario gets Best Bred By in Breed. If the bred by dog but not the bitch goes winners and vice versa, I believe the dog gets the best, and doesn't even need to go BOW but not sure. If neither go winners, both have to come back in at the end and compete against each other. 

Groups are separate from the main groups, usually they are in a single ring (compared to the reg groups double). The procedure is the same as the reg groups, but usually judges will pick 1-4 without making a cut, unless the group is really big. Sometimes people don't stay for the groups (same with the reg groups), it's their prerogative. You are not getting anything extra, it is just a fun thing. 

Best Bred By in show is presented to won of the winners of the groups. This is usually done in the big ring before Reg BIS, sometimes it is just done in the small ring. Again procedure the same. 

*Best Puppy Competition:*

This is a little more complicated, because instead of just two dogs (one bitch one dog) competing for this, you have 4. The first three classes are divided into age classes. Puppy 6-9 month, Puppy 9-12 month, and 12-18 month. 12-18 class does not compete for this as it is not a puppy class. Only those dogs entered in a puppy class have a shot for this, if a puppy is entered in one of the other classes they are ineligible. The easiest scenario to explain is if neither of the winners from each of those classes gets winners. The steward will call back the winners of each of those classes and they will compete for best puppy in breed. The other scenarios are similar to bred by comp. 

Groups will also be the same, and so will Best. 

*Best of Opposite Sex competition:*

Some clubs offer what is called a best of opposite sex competiton, where they BOS to the best of breed will move on to the BOS groups, and the winners of the BOS groups to the BOS in Show. 

*4-6 Month Puppy competition:*

Some clubs offer this fairly new competition, for puppies. It is completely separate from the main competition. Usually done mid day in one of the rings. This is again another tier system. It is separated by breed in each group. These puppies are not old enough for regular competition, but some people want to get them out and practice. Each breed is judge to their own standard, but of course judges understand these are not mature dogs, they are young puppies, things can change. I don't think each breed is separated by dogs and bitches I think you just bring them all in and the judge picks the best one. 

Groups and Best In Show are again judged the same way. I have never competed in this, just never have had a young pup when this was being offered.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

*Miscellaneous Classes*

This is for breeds that are not quite eligible for full registration, but are out of the FSS program. Right now that would be these breeds:

Azawakh, Belgian Laekenois, Bergamasco, Berger Picard, Boerboel, Cirneco dell Etna, Coton De Tulear, Dogo Argentino, Lagotto Romagnolo, Miniature American Shepherd, Peruvian Inca Orchid, Pumi, Sloughi, Spanish Water Dog, and Wirehaired Vizsla. 

Only these breeds can compete in this. This is not divided into the respective groups they will be competing in so once each breed is done the winners from each come back in and the judge will pick the best out of all of them (their opinion). 

The breed is separated by sex, but that is all it is separated by. The best dog and the best bitch compete for best misc in breed and best op misc, for each of the breeds entered. Of course much like the reg competition, not all breeds will be entered in any given show. 

Misc breeds compete for what is called a Certificate of Merit, they gain points for each breed win and best win, and after a certain amount of points the get a CM put after their name. I don't know how many points/wins it takes


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> The Jury is out on that debate lol. Some people will tell you judges never look up, always look at the right side of the leash. But I have been in this long enough to tell you, with certain judges that is just a blatant lie. There are judges that we like to refer to as face judges, they only look at the wrong side of the leash, even if the best dog is being shown by the faceless (newbies, owner handlers, new breeders, etc). Now not all judges are like this, but for every impartial do the right thing judge, there are probably two face judges. At least in my area, which is why a lot of clubs around here are hiring judges from a far. There are certain judges that certain clubs will never hire, for one reason or another.


not sure on this about judges,,, only heard smirk type comments on why a judge was a judge... so wanted to ask """ how does an individual become a judge"" is it based on merit in their own breed, or more political of who you know....


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> not sure on this about judges,,, only heard smirk type comments on why a judge was a judge... so wanted to ask """ how does an individual become a judge"" is it based on merit in their own breed, or more political of who you know....


They apply for certain breeds through AKC (again probably different in other countries), and have to take some tests, and attend seminars and breed education (usually at national specialties). I don't know the exact amount, but you want to apply for as many breeds as you can the first time, as the next time you can only apply for half of that amount. Judges go through a provisional stage, where they have to judge a certain amount of dogs before they can get full recognition, they also have to be observed by an AKC rep at least three times. 

Here is a link that I think explains the whole process not sure (read through a little bit of it and it is confusing)

http://pdf.akc.org/pdfs/QA_Judging_Approval_Process2012.pdf


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You are calling it conformation a sport; what exactly makes it a sport?


It's competition  There are winners and losers, ribbons and trophies, sometimes money winnings (not much). So it is definitely a sport!



> Do the dogs, at least yours, enjoy being in the ring? Do you personally enjoy it?


I love it, or I wouldn't do it. It is a ridiculous passion for me, and I can't really even tell you why. Yes, ego is part of it, but ego is part of everything we compete in to some degree. Do my dogs love it? Mirada did, very much. She had the PERFECT show dog attitude. Very flashy, VERY look at me,loved the attention, free stacked like a dream (free stacking is not commonly seen in the GSD, so I can use that to impress judges). Wesson? Wesson is not such a fan. She does it because I ask her to. She doesn't hate it so much that I can't get her ears up or that she refuses to move nicely, but she likes the "LOOK AT ME!!!!!" attitude that Mogwai has.

Wes will make a better brood bitch than a show dog, which is fine, because she's not specials quality anyway.




> Questions on my part: how impartial are judges? If a judge has a choice between two dogs;
> One dog is wonderful and is handled and owned by a renowned breeder. The judge is not personally involved with this breeder, but certainly knows who the breeder is.
> The other dog is even more wonderful and is handled by a private owner that doesn't breed, but shows for sport. The judge has no idea who this person is.


It depends. What constitutes "more wonderful"? If dog A is a beautiful, fluid mover, but lacks the headpiece the judge likes, the judge could easily award the points to dog B, who may not move as nicely, but has the more correct headpiece.

I won't pretend politics aren't involved in this sport. They are. And they definitely play a bigger role in some breeds than others. That said, I have regularly been beating professional handlers with my bitch all year long, and many of these judges STILL don't have a clue who the hell I am. As an owner handler in GSDs, I am a real rarity. They are a breed that people insist on having a handler for. I won't do that. It's not fun for me.



> Do the top handlers win because they are well known or is it because they "show" well as Elrohwen described.


It's both. Like I said, politics are at play sometimes. Often times, the handlers DO have the better dogs, but I have seen them win with dogs that should not have won that day. Frustrating, but politics are part of any sport.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> I won't pretend politics aren't involved in this sport. They are. And they definitely play a bigger role in some breeds than others.


What's done to minimize to politics and bias? I recall reading that titles require winning points under different judges (and I think that's true for other sports like obedience and agility??) and I imagine there would be some type of judges' code of conduct / ethics. What else?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> What's done to minimize to politics and bias? I recall reading that titles require winning points under different judges (and I think that's true for other sports like obedience and agility??) and I imagine there would be some type of judges' code of conduct / ethics. What else?


For conformation, you have to win your majors under different judges, and I think you need at least one other point from a third judge. So it is expected that you show under at least 3 different judges to keep some of the politics out of it. Handlers and owners will pick shows based on the judges though, and not enter under people who "don't like them" and will enter under people who do, so if you're well known there are ways around that. My breeder seems to remember every judge and will say "Oh, good thing you're showing under So-and-so. He gave a major to Watson's mother when she was a puppy." So far, I haven't shown under the same judge twice.

There are some rules when it comes to professional handlers showing under judges they may have worked for or had a professional relationship with. I don't know the details, but that prevents some blatant conflict of interest scenarios.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I am seriously fascinated by conformation shows. I'm starting to try to go to as many as I can, and this thread is really helpful to actually figure out what's going on! 

I've also been wondering how my pup would stack up, out of pure curiosity. To me, she's the prettiest Newfie alive


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

There really isn't anything else. You pick your judges and pay to play, just like everybody else.

I keep a list of judges that have liked my animals or were good to show to, and I also have a DNS (Do not Show) list. My DNS list, thankfully, is very short. Judges end up on my DNS list generally because of crappy demeanor with the dogs, or just absolutely abysmal judging. I generally show to a judge twice before I put them on my DNS list.

I showed to a judge this weekend that dumped my bitch, which is fine. He was great to show to, and told me exactly why he didn't pick my animal. The things he commented on that he didn't like about my girl were absolutely correct. I'll show to him again, but I'll be sure to bring him what he likes.

Some judges I will always give an entry to even if they don't like the kind of dog I have, because they're GREAT judges for new dogs. They will give my dog (puppy) an excellent experience, and I won't have to worry about "fixing" anything the judge may have broken (too harsh opening the mouth, yelling at a wiggly puppy, etc).


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Handlers and owners will pick shows based on the judges though, and not enter under people who "don't like them" and will enter under people who do, so if you're well known there are ways around that.


Heck yes we do! That's just smart showing  Conformation exhibition is NOT cheap, so if you can limit your travel expenses and entry fees, you should!

I won a major with Wesson under David Anthony. I saw he was judging in Maryland, and I built majors there because other people needed majors for their dogs to finish. I entered under Mr. Anthony both to try and help build the major, and because my bitch still needed single points.

Wesson won the major (which I fought for, let me tell you!). Because she had already won a major under Mr. Anthony, the major converted to single points. Wes still needs a major to finish. People, of course, were mad at me, and feel I should have pulled my bitch, and that I "stole" the major from another bitch that could have taken it. I disagree (obviously). I don't have money to just throw away, and will not pull my animal unless it is beneficial for me to do so. Now I don't have to travel to a bunch of other shows to get the three singles she would have needed otherwise.

That said, this past weekend at Oaks, there was no major on Sunday, so I pulled Wesson. She doesn't need single points. There's no point in my showing her when she's singled out.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I keep a list of judges that have liked my animals or were good to show to, and I also have a DNS (Do not Show) list. My DNS list, thankfully, is very short. Judges end up on my DNS list generally because of crappy demeanor with the dogs, or just absolutely abysmal judging. I generally show to a judge twice before I put them on my DNS list.


Yeah, this is basically how I'm putting together my list. Some judges have been very nice to both me and the dog, which I appreciate as a newbie, and I would show to them again. One judge, in group, was so awful and rude. I was telling some people about her and they said "Oh her?! She's such a bitch. She's like that to everybody, unless you're a certain handler." Lol Apparently she's on everybody's DNS list just because she's really not nice. I'm lucky Watson wasn't put off by her manner either, since she was pretty abrupt with him.

I do wish there was some feedback from the judges. I'd love to know why they put another dog up over mine. On Saturday we beat a dog, and on Sunday we lost to him (but got reserve), and I'm left guessing about what was different. Could be the judge just preferred a different type of dog, but since he put Watson as reserve out of a decent number of dogs, I don't think that's it. My feeling is that I didn't show his gait as well in a small indoor ring, vs the outdoor ring the day before, but it would be nice to know for sure so I could fix it for the next time. The only feedback I've gotten was from the judge who is a Welshie breeder, and only because he called Watson's breeder the day after the show and she told me what he said.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Heck yes we do! That's just smart showing  Conformation exhibition is NOT cheap, so if you can limit your travel expenses and entry fees, you should!


I meant more that the well known professionals could pick and choose the judges who are political in their favor (to finish a less than stellar dog), but yes, everybody can pick and choose! Definitely not worth it to show to someone who doesn't like your style of dog, or who is a PITA.


Major building is super common in Welshies, since there aren't many around. Watson's sister spent the summer in Canada because a breeder there couldn't even find other dogs to put together majors. One reason I've only shown a handful of times is that I don't bother going to a show unless I know someone is entering - there are plenty of shows where I would be the only one there, and no opportunity for points. So far we've only had one shot at a major.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You wouldn't think majors would need to be built in GSDs, but they do :-/ They're hard to come by, especially when GSD people can really be jerks.

"Don't tell so and so I'm coming!" is a really common phrase when trying to build majors.

As far as a judge not liking your dog, sometimes you can ask and they'll tell you, other times they're completely useless and can't give you a real answer. I once asked a judge what she didn't like about my bitch, and she couldn't tell me...even though I had JUST shown to her.

Will I show to her again? Probably not. But her judging of GSDs that day was not great to begin with. I do feel some judges really just KNOW dogs. Doesn't matter the breed, they just have a good eye. When I don't win under them, but I can understand what it is they put up over my girl, and when they are quality animals, that's a good judge. I do not have to win under a certain judge to know they are good. Other judges have no eye at all, and I wonder how they keep getting assigments.


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## Jmc1985 (Nov 27, 2012)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> *Miscellaneous Classes*
> 
> This is for breeds that are not quite eligible for full registration, but are out of the FSS program. Right now that would be these breeds:
> 
> ...


15 points. Once the breed reaches full recognition they lose any points they've earned towards their CM and have to start over.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> You wouldn't think majors would need to be built in GSDs, but they do :-/ They're hard to come by, especially when GSD people can really be jerks.


That's such a shame. I'm really glad Welshie people are generally friendly (at least in my region).




> I do feel some judges really just KNOW dogs. Doesn't matter the breed, they just have a good eye.


I'm always very impressed by these types of people. Watson's breeder has an old friend who used to be in Goldens, and she has such a good eye for dogs of just about any breed. It's a shame she's not an actual AKC judge, just an ex-breeder who likes to attend shows with her friends to talk about dogs. I'm not a very good judge, especially if there is a lot of hair. I'm much better with pictures where the dogs can't move and I can think it through. Haha


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I base who I enter in shows, on who is judging. I did not enter BB in the first Winston Salem show as the judges for her sucked, so I just went with a friend and showed the spaniels. In Tennessee, I flip flopped with the bullies, I put the girl under certain judges who I thought would like her best, and the male with who I thought would like him best, we had all breeder judges. Neither of them did anything, but I thought the judges I had them under gave them a fair shot.

I think most people do it this way. I don't just follow judges that I have gone to, I do go to judges that I have never shown to and go to provisional judges. I like showing under the provisional judges.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Xeph said:


> You wouldn't think majors would need to be built in GSDs, but they do :-/ They're hard to come by, especially when GSD people can really be jerks.
> 
> "Don't tell so and so I'm coming!" is a really common phrase when trying to build majors.
> 
> ...


yes GSD's are a very passionate group. lol lol lol .  I've been asked to bring every dog I have to a certain show to build a major for another exhibitor and we did,


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

We build majors in weims, Springers, and Engies. The bullies don't really need any help lol.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I don't know much about conformation, but I have seen an instance of ACD breeders focusing more on the conformation ring then working titles. I personally wont buy from a breeder (using my breed as an example) that has only conformation titles and no working titles. because personally for me, it is important to have a puppy from parents who can (and do) excel in BOTH venues. because both are important. the dog needs to be judged as a good physical example of his or her breed, BUT (in the case of working breeds) they also need to prove that they can do their original form of function.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would like to tell you all that conformation is also SO much more than throwing a pretty chain and lead on your dog and running around in a circle. Things like coat care, physical conditioning, diet, and training are all MAJOR parts of conformation exhibition.

My Shepherds are bathed *every week*. They are NEVER allowed to air dry. I brush them constantly, and deep condition their coats once a month or every couple of months. Nails are ground weekly, teeth are scaled as necessary, ears are cleaned.

I had several people comment on the healthy, shiny coats of my animals this past weekend. They were all shocked to hear that I bathe my dogs every week.

Supplementation for my crew is actually pretty minimal, and I go back and forth about whether or not the supplements really help. My dogs look just as good without supplements as they do with them. I do like to feed coconut oil and fish oil, and the dogs go off and on glucosamine and chondroitin as I feel like using it. I feed a food that agrees with my animals, rather than following fad diets (which was hard for me to move away from). My dogs are now on a grain inclusive food, and are actually doing BETTER! Stools have actually become smaller, firmer, and they aren't pooping as often. But the food I'm feeding uses sorghum as one of the grains, rather than rice. The dogs seem to digest it better.

When I was getting Wesson ready for the national, my husband and I were taking her to the fairgrounds 3-4 times a week. I'd sit in the trunk of my van, he would drive, and Wesson would gait behind the van at about 6 mph for 3 miles. I am hoping to get a dog treadmill soon to work her in the winter time and keep her in shape. Once we start herding again, the conditioning will take care of itself.

When it comes to training, my dogs start learning about freestacking and being on the grooming table the day they come home. They learn how to stand and be bathed without making a fuss, how to stay on the table while I dry them (no grooming arm used), and to tolerate having their foot pads and lips trimmed up. They learn about gaiting, and how to stand and stay while people go over them (without my hands on them), they learn to show their teeth and open their mouths so dentition can be checked. Boys learn that, yes, people will be touching their testicles, and it's not a terrible thing, and to just stand and deal with it. They all learn to tolerate having their tails stroked (and slightly pulled). They learn that when I free stack them, stand means STAND and it doesn't matter if the person behind you touches your butt, you STAY THERE!

Hours and hours and hours of work go into my show dogs, just like my performance dogs.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I really admire people like you, Xeph, who put so much work into their dogs. I think it really shows, and if you want to win at higher levels (or with a competitive breed) that's what you have to do. I show in the same rings as the other sporting dogs like spaniels and setters, and it's clear that a lot of time and effort went into those dogs

I'll admit I am much lazier! But then showing isn't my passion either, and I'm blessed with a dog who makes it look easy (which is funny, since in other venues he makes me look like an idiot). I could stand to focus more on maintenance grooming, and put in more time training him for the ring and I'll have to get more serious about it if I decide to special him.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

This sport, as I mentioned in the beginning, has a ton of nuance that people aren't aware of. It is those nuances that you have to have a passion for, otherwise, yes, conformation is exceedingly dull. I do not present any two animals in the same manner.

Wesson, for example, knows how to free stack, but because of her ring attitude, I do not free stack her often. She is lackadaisical and sometimes lazy about it. It presents a poor picture. Mirada, however, was ALWAYS "on", and I rarely hand stacked her aside from initial and last set up.

Something to remember is that you should show as if the judge is always looking. You need to keep your eye on the judge and what they are doing. Try not to let the judge see the less pleasant portions of your dogs. Fight for your placements, and don't give up until it's over (you have been excused from the ring).

When we were at that show in Maryland, Wesson really wasn't showing her best, but I did everything I could to keep that judge looking at her. He almost gave the win to another bitch (who is very nice), but I was standing in that ring, the collar up behind Wesson's ears (to push them up and give her a better outline), and the other handler and I were staring down that judge. I pulled Wesson's head up a bit, to get her up on her toes, and I dropped a piece of bait to get her ears up further.

The judge pointed at me and gave me winner's bitch.

It was close, but I busted my butt and earned that win.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Xeph, can you explain sweepstakes, veteran, and futurities? Also, how does supported entry work exactly?


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks for the brutally honest answers. I think it probable that it's the same here with the (im)partiality of judges. 

Xeph, I wondered just now because you mentioned Mirada and I've noticed she's not on your site. Is she still with you? 

I don't think I'd ever be as seriously into showing as you, Xeph, when I read about all the work that goes into it. I've visited dog shows but never felt like 'that's what I want to do!' And most of all, I wouldn't be willing to put in all the effort like the meticulous cleaning and trimming etcetera. 

I do love visiting shows though, and see all kinds of breeds. I rarely stop to watch an entire judging, but part of it is that I don't know what exactly goes on inside the ring. I'm visiting an all-breed show this December though, so I hope to get some of the workings down before I go.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Bah!!! Sorry! Kept meaning to address those, and forgot!

All those are non regular classes. Futurities are basically breeders showcases (they're supposed to be). No points, just prestige. Futurities and maturities are supposed to enable you to see what various animals are producing. Sweepstakes are for puppies (and sometimes veterans) only. They tend to award a very small monetary prize, and, of course, prestige. No championship points are awarded.

Veterans is a non regular class, and is limited to dogs 7 years and older. Sometimes you are allowed to show an altered (spayed/neutered) veteran, other times they are required to still be intact. It is at the club's discretion whether or not to allow altered veterans.

The veterans will compete in the veterans class, and then the winner of that class will go in for BOB. A veteran CAN go BOB/BOS, but will receive no points for the win.

Supported entry means that a specialty club does just that...supports the entry of the specified breed for the host club. They tend to offer additional prizes, and seeing that a specialty club is supporting the entry tends to encourage people of that breed to enter.



> Xeph, I wondered just now because you mentioned Mirada and I've noticed she's not on your site. Is she still with you?


Nope, Ickle Bitty got placed  She is living with my good friend (who I tentatively refer to as my kennel partner) just an hour away. My friend brought Mogwai along on the trip to the national, so I got to see her. She's doing really well and is well cared for and loved. This same friend will be getting a Wesson puppy to show next year


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Xeph said:


> When we were at that show in Maryland, Wesson really wasn't showing her best, but I did everything I could to keep that judge looking at her. He almost gave the win to another bitch (who is very nice), but I was standing in that ring, the collar up behind Wesson's ears (to push them up and give her a better outline), and the other handler and I were staring down that judge. I pulled Wesson's head up a bit, to get her up on her toes, and I dropped a piece of bait to get her ears up further.
> 
> The judge pointed at me and gave me winner's bitch.
> 
> It was close, but I busted my butt and earned that win.


OK, a question. If they're supposed to be judging conformation (which is what it is and doesn't depend on how the dog is standing), why does it matter where the dog's ears are or any of that? Or does that only matter when both dogs are equal conformationally and that's what breaks the tie?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

exact opposite of Xeph was loosing a BOB for Major taking a step from his stack .. lol it was that close that the judge had us and another dog in the ring for 7 - 10 minutes to make his decision and when Major took a step BOB to the other male. OUCH...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> OK, a question. If they're supposed to be judging conformation (which is what it is and doesn't depend on how the dog is standing), why does it matter where the dog's ears are or any of that? Or does that only matter when both dogs are equal conformationally and that's what breaks the tie?


Because attitude also matters. Temperament matters. Wesson also has a wide ear set, and by pushing her ears up and closer together, it gives her head a more pleasing appearance, and the judge may go ahead and look past the wide ears.

There are all sorts of things that can "break the tie" for a judge. Expression, coarseness of head, too refined in bone, softer top line vs harder back. It's all these little bitty things.

At the show on Saturday, the judge told me exactly why he didn't put up my bitch. He said it was just a matter of preference. My bitch was too long in the back for him (and she is too long) and he didn't feel her pasterns were as nice as the other bitch. He also told me that my bitch is a perfectly sound nice moving animal, she's just not what he was looking for. Well, now I know what to bring him. Shorter backed animals with good substance and slightly higher pasterns.

A dog that has a poor attitude and is not holding itself well will make itself look crappy. If it's slouching and has it's ears down, it looks sloppy, loses its wither, can make itself look like it has no front.

Structure does not change, but the *appearance* of structure DOES change depending on what I or the dog does. You don't want to make a judge think too hard. Show attributes at ALL time and never give them a chance to think "Oh, I made a mistake."


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> OK, a question. If they're supposed to be judging conformation (which is what it is and doesn't depend on how the dog is standing), why does it matter where the dog's ears are or any of that? Or does that only matter when both dogs are equal conformationally and that's what breaks the tie?


Ear set and carriage is a piece of the conformation puzzle, much like tail set and carriage is. It may be a small piece, but it is still needed to make the full picture.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Here are two pictures of baby Wesson. She is free stacked here, but you still get two different "pictures" when looking at her



















The first picture gives the appearance of a shorter bodied animal, more moderate in angulation. Beautiful wither, but a bit short in the neck. She also appears to be more upright in the shoulder and like she could use better layback. Croup looks short and steep.

The second picture gives the appearance of a longer bodied bitch, more extreme in angulation, still with an excellent wither, but a longer neck. The appearance of shoulder layback and length of upper arm has also changed. Croup looks elongated and not as steep, tail set appears to flow from the croup better.

So to say that it doesn't matter how the dog is set up is absolutely not true.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Here are two pictures of baby Wesson. She is free stacked here, but you still get two different "pictures" when looking at her
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aww Baby Wes, so cute!


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

What Xeph said. 

Heck, it even counts in matches. My puppy won Best in Match this past weekend at 3 months old, because when he was in for Best he NEVER broke. He was ON the entire time, and the other puppies weren't. Asking a 3 month old puppy to work that hard and the puppy rising to the challenge and "showing his heart out" was recognized and rewarded. Granted, in Dobermans it's expected that when you start showing your puppy at 6 months that they act like a seasoned special, so my puppy probably had three times the training than the other puppies had.

In my breed, you can be darn sure conformation is a sport. Xeph's breed too.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Granted, in Dobermans it's expected that when you start showing your puppy at 6 months that they act like a seasoned special


I expect that of my baby Sheps, too, and many other people do not. It gives me an edge.

My puppies still get to be puppies, but when we are in the ring, we are working, and the training I do reflects in the behavior of my young pups. I don't allow a lot of the crap behavior others do. Some puppies in my breed aren't even leash broke before they enter the ring (not even kidding), but they get rewarded because they move like freight trains, even if they behave terrible (hate that).

My animals move nice and easy, use their leads, and are consistent. They are free stacking by the time they hit the ring when other puppies can barely hold still.

This is Mirada at 5ish months old. This is what I bring into the ring. She would stand stay forever when I baited her. When you walk into a ring with a 6 month old puppy that you can free stack from the end of an 8' lead, a judge will notice.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I expect that of my baby Sheps, too, and many other people do not. It gives me an edge.
> 
> My puppies still get to be puppies, but when we are in the ring, we are working, and the training I do reflects in the behavior of my young pups. I don't allow a lot of the crap behavior others do. Some puppies in my breed aren't even leash broke before they enter the ring (not even kidding), but they get rewarded because they move like freight trains, even if they behave terrible (hate that).
> 
> ...


Oh I believe you! I teach a conformation handling class... I've seen so many GSD puppies come in and need A LOT of work. Heck, even a good number of adults need work! 

Tab can hold a freestack at the end of a 48" show lead, with me that far away. Pretty darn good for a 3 month old puppy. I wish it gave me an edge, but everyone else in Dobermans can say the same thing. Bah.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I will admit that I find it sad that so many GSD people allow their animals to be heathens, rather than holding them to a higher standard. I also think it is rude to bring a judge an untrained animal. I would never do that. It's something that really bothers me, and I HAVE had judges comment to me how refreshing it is to go over a well trained puppy that does not act like a spazz or gait like one.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

This is how Kira won her first major. The judge was looking in his book for a minute, and then when he turned around he saw this










Everybody else was handstacked.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Ear set and carriage is a piece of the conformation puzzle, much like tail set and carriage is. It may be a small piece, but it is still needed to make the full picture.


Yes, but ear set and carriage don't change just because you threw bait down and made the dog look more alert. It has nothing to do with the dog's genetic superiority, which is what we're told is the main purpose of showing, yes?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Set never changes, but the carriage does when you throw bait or gait your dog a certain way. Genetic superiority is completely subjective. We have standards, but you can have a multitude of dogs that are correct per the standard, and a judge is still going to prefer one over the other, especially since no dog is perfect.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Love this thread. Many thanks to those people sharing their knowledge.  I've long been fascinated by the sport (and sub-culture, I'd say) of canine conformation. It's something I intend to pursue with my next dog.

A question, if I may. Say I acquired an 8-week-old pup tomorrow with the intent to eventually show. How would you recommend I go about priming this puppy for the show ring? What behaviors should I focus on training?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks to everyone, especially Xeph and Chaos, for sharing their knowledge. This has been a great discussion. 



Xeph said:


> Because attitude also matters. Temperament matters.
> 
> Structure does not change, but the *appearance* of structure DOES change depending on what I or the dog does. You don't want to make a judge think too hard. Show attributes at ALL time and never give them a chance to think "Oh, I made a mistake."


I've heard breeders say that when presented with two puppies who are equally correct per the standard, they will select the one with a better attitude or who has a flashier temperament. They look not only at physical structure, but also the way the dog carries himself because attitude matters in the ring. They want a dog who enjoys showing and who looks happy and confident in the ring.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> They want a dog who enjoys showing and who looks happy and confident in the ring.


Absolutely. I will not be specialing Wesson once she finishes, both because she is not specials quality and because she does not have the attitude for it. She'll be happier as a brood bitch, hanging around the house and doing performance stuff.

Mirada practically *thrived* on the attention from showing, where Wesson can get a bit stress, and would just prefer not to.


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## mholmes000 (Oct 6, 2012)

Great post. I purchased a puppy in September with the intent to show. I have absolutely no experience showing any breeds - I've just been an admirer form afar for years. I just signed up for conformation courses from a local kennel club. Here is my question: should I attempt to pursue this owner handled or seek a local experience handler to show my puppy? I'm not concerned with the additional expense. Thanks.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

mholmes000 said:


> Great post. I purchased a puppy in September with the intent to show. I have absolutely no experience showing any breeds - I've just been an admirer form afar for years. I just signed up for conformation courses from a local kennel club. Here is my question: should I attempt to pursue this owner handled or seek a local experience handler to show my puppy? I'm not concerned with the additional expense. Thanks.


That's up to you. Personally I would at least try it yourself first and see if you like it. You can always hire a handler later.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

What Chaos said. I do not like seeing my dog with somebody else. It is not fun for me.

I handed off Wesson to a friend to show at the national, because the ring is just too big for me, and I could have hurt myself pretty badly. Wesson looked nice, and I was very happy with how she showed and how she was handled, but....well, it wasn't fun for me. I have dogs to do things with them myself, not for somebody else to do it and get the credit for it, you know?

That said, it DOES take a certain amount of talent to present a dog well, and some people just *do not* have that ability.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Nothing of value to add but I just have to say, I really appreciate all the thought and discussion put into this thread. I'm not even a little bit interested in conformation but this was a fascinating read; I feel like I just took an online course on a subject I know nothing about! To those who do participate and put so much time and energy into this sport, your passion is palpable through your words.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree, this is great info. But, I would like some take-aways .... in a different Topic, so that we don't hijack and dilute this one (make this one a Sticky)

From the perspective of a typical $100 Rescue owner:
1. How do train to Free Stack - just generally, that I might apply to a Stand-Stay or another behavior.
2. What do the Handlers, such as Greg Strong do ... and how can I apply that special sauce [in 5 minutes? !!!] to training my dog?

Thanks for all the good context and info.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I haven't a clue who Greg Strong is, so can't help you there xD


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't exhibit, I don't know much about it and I guess I'm who you want to hear from. Unfortunately, I'm not remotely interested in it but I give credit to those of you who spend your time & money.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

I would like to hear how to teach a dog to free stack. It looks like I'm going to be getting the opportunity to show LilyBell a bit more in the coming months and this is something I would like to work on.


I'm new to showing, I've done it maybe 5 times total? I LOVE it. I got to show frenchies on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, and all I can think of is "I WANT TO DO IT AGAIN!" and that I can't wait to try it again.

Am I any good? I have no idea haha. I'm certainly never going to be a professional, but I would love to have this as a hobby, and be able to present LillyBell well..


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Xeph said:


> Some judges I will always give an entry to even if they don't like the kind of dog I have, because they're GREAT judges for new dogs. They will give my dog (puppy) an excellent experience, and I won't have to worry about "fixing" anything the judge may have broken (too harsh opening the mouth, yelling at a wiggly puppy, etc).


Hahaha like the judge on Sunday with Jari 

I'm still very new as well, so I don't have much to contribute. But it really does come down to how much money I can/am willing to spend on travel/entry fees for me. My breed is so random in terms of where there are groups of them located, and even so it's a lot of kennels using a bunch of their dogs against each other. Around here, Jari can only get points if he beats Bubbles and MAYBE a couple of others who come down this way to show sometimes. Our specialties are once a year and could be anywhere in the US. If I can't go to that, no way to find a major around here. Unless I put Pen back in the ring, but then he would totally beat Jari more often than not until Jari grows up a bit. 

I think it's somewhat fun, but I'm more in to the agility/obedience stuff. It takes A LOT of work for what is for me and my breed currently, hardly any payoff. That being said, I don't think I would ever want to send a dog out with a pro handler. Not because I don't admire the work they do, but because I would rather do it myself even though I'm not any good as a handler. Now I would totally be at a show and show one of my guys with a pro handling another/others (like Xeph and I did this past weekend), but I at least was a part of it. Even though I chickened out and had Xeph show Bubbles for the group ring. Usually I don't mind group rings, but this one felt super intimidating 

As far as stacking goes, luckily Bubbles and Jari have natural stacks so I just teach them a stand cue and they are fine. I have toyed around with teaching a separate cue for the show ring and using some foot targeting to set up the feet, but I don't think I need to, fortunately. I do train them to tolerate being manipulated while in that stand so that works out as well. Not sure if Jari allowed much of that for Xeph, but I have been working on that type of thing since he was basically born LOL. 

So here's a picture of me and Bubbles from last years Specialty - I just told her to stand and I had to kneel to show the judge her bite. 









This was us working outside of the ring before we went in:


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

To answer a couple of questions that may or may not have been answered. 

Do dogs like it? Some do and some don't. Those that do, all things being equal, will go farther and faster than a dog that does not like it. 

Are judges biased? Some are... 
But the whole the Judge is biased thing is WAY over used... 

An Excuse for not having your dog prepared, not working with your dog, etc.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

My supervisor shows Yorkshire Terriers. I always tell her hats off to her and all the effort she takes in showing and prepping her dogs for shows. She brings them into work occasionally with their hair tied up in little bundles to prevent breakage. I have seen her pictures of what her dogs look like at the shows. WOW! I do tease her about belonging to the 'Red Bow Club'. There is a lot of prep time in training, conditioning, and travel to showing your dog. Hats off to those that go down this road.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Handlers and owners will pick shows based on the judges though, and not enter under people who "don't like them" and will enter under people who do, so if you're well known there are ways around that.


 Just wanted to comment that this is same for [AKC] agility. I'm starting to figure out which judges have the "best" courses that Denali runs best, which judges scare her (yes, she gets really stressed by certain judges and will knock bars or refuse to weave), and which judges she runs best for.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

hanksimon said:


> I agree, this is great info. But, I would like some take-aways .... in a different Topic, so that we don't hijack and dilute this one (make this one a Sticky)
> 
> From the perspective of a typical $100 Rescue owner:
> 1. How do train to Free Stack - just generally, that I might apply to a Stand-Stay or another behavior.
> ...


Not sure who Greg Strong is...


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Not sure who Greg Strong is...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

mholmes000 said:


> Great post. I purchased a puppy in September with the intent to show. I have absolutely no experience showing any breeds - I've just been an admirer form afar for years. I just signed up for conformation courses from a local kennel club. Here is my question: should I attempt to pursue this owner handled or seek a local experience handler to show my puppy? I'm not concerned with the additional expense. Thanks.


You should try it.... 

In 2007 coming from the performance side of things, I bought a puppy that had a conformation agreement tied to him. 
I agreed to show the dog to a conformation Championship....

Fast forward to the present... 

That "puppy" is retired with a few limited cameo appearances here and that... 

We stumbled and spit and sputtered, but when we got it together.... Shazaam!!!!

Merlin retired with a Bronze achievement level on his Grand Championship.
Spent 30 months in the top 20 in his breed. 
Was a double invitee (qualified for an invitation in two ways) two years in a Row for the National Championship. (The first year he went you had to be invited. The second year they let anyone in but recognized the invitees. 
Was awarded AOMs at two regional specialties. 
25 Best of Breeds, numerous Best Opposite Sexes, I did not count the Select Dog awards. 
He is also a UKC Champion. Finished in two weekends. 

And I never once Worried about a big name Handler... I have been in the ring against a bunch of them... Against a bunch of dogs with 6 figure and a couple with 7 figure show budgets... I let them worry about my boy...



ChaosIsAWeim said:


>


Cannot say that I have ever seen him in person.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I don't think I've actually ever seen Greg in person myself, either.

You'll find that different people know different pros, and it's pretty breed centric. I know GSD specialty/all breed handlers, but couldn't at all tell you the who's who in other breeds.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Greg was only mentioned because I brought up some things I noticed in his seminar that I attended recently. Not because he's the best handler in the world or anything, though he is arguably in the top tier. I've never run into him at a show either, but he was very nice and gave a good demonstration of how a good handler can transform a dog in the ring.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


>


look at that cute little peeb!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Love this thread. Many thanks to those people sharing their knowledge.  I've long been fascinated by the sport (and sub-culture, I'd say) of canine conformation. It's something I intend to pursue with my next dog.
> 
> A question, if I may. Say I acquired an 8-week-old pup tomorrow with the intent to eventually show. How would you recommend I go about priming this puppy for the show ring? What behaviors should I focus on training?


First I would focus on socialization. Get the pup used to chaotic environments, loud noises, and being around other dogs. Get him used to other people touching him. Get him used to having his feet touched and pick them up and set them down (ideally he will keep them where you put them). Get him used to being on a grooming table and being groomed. 

Then find a handling class where someone can teach you the basics. They should walk you through everything you'll need to know to get started and enter your first show. 

You'll be showing in the UKC, right? From the catahoula people I know who show UKC, it's much more laid back than AKC, no pro handlers, and dogs and handlers aren't as polished. Overall, a great venue to get started in for a newbie because there's less pressure to be perfect.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> I agree, this is great info. But, I would like some take-aways .... in a different Topic, so that we don't hijack and dilute this one (make this one a Sticky)
> 
> From the perspective of a typical $100 Rescue owner:
> 1. How do train to Free Stack - just generally, that I might apply to a Stand-Stay or another behavior.
> ...


Spaniels generally don't free stack (at least not my breed at the class level) so I can't help you there. 

The main things I learned at the seminar were to keep the dog engaged, and do a lot of training outside the ring so your dog can shine in the ring. Nothing life changing, I think it was just being shown what to do in person that was important. For that houla who didn't like to show, he used bait to engage the dog by throwing it right at the dog (dog looks alert because treats might be coming at him at any time) and chucking the treat out ahead (dog trots ahead alertly chasing treat). It's not stuff he does in the ring, but stuff he does in training. 

He also showed us how the best handler will make the dog look dynamic. Even though the dog is standing basically still, like Xeph mentioned you can bring them up on their toes right as the judge looks over, or have them arch their neck more, or any number of things. The best handlers don't just stand still with their dog hoping the judge notices.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> look at that cute little peeb!


She's like the top winning PBGV of all time.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

mholmes000 said:


> Great post. I purchased a puppy in September with the intent to show. I have absolutely no experience showing any breeds - I've just been an admirer form afar for years. I just signed up for conformation courses from a local kennel club. Here is my question: should I attempt to pursue this owner handled or seek a local experience handler to show my puppy? I'm not concerned with the additional expense. Thanks.


What breed? Some are easier for novices to succeed in and others will take a lot of work. I don't put nearly as much work or time into show grooming and training as others in this thread and have been successful with my boy so far. Most Welshies are owner handled and it's not hard to finish a good dog. Other breeds are going to take a lot of work and training, but it's still satisfying to get your dog started even if you decide to use a handler to get majors or something. 

No matter what the breed, definitely give it a shot on your own first. It's much more fun to succeed with your dog than to watch someone else do it. 

Also, if you spend a lot of time working with your pup and bonding with him, he'll probably show better for you than a handler he doesn't know well (unless he's traveling with and living with the handler all the time and can develop that bond).


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

I definitely like the frenchies are a wash and wear breed. Granted, there are some tricks that can go into grooming them for a show...

It seems there are a lot of handlers in frenchies but also many owner handlers. On Saturday, we were beat by a bitch in our class that was definitely not deserving (according to others, not coming from me). She had a handler on her. Did she win because of that? Maybe. Did she win because I'm a total newbie and probably didn't do a great job presenting my girl? Maybe LOL.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Yes, but ear set and carriage don't change just because you threw bait down and made the dog look more alert. It has nothing to do with the dog's genetic superiority, which is what we're told is the main purpose of showing, yes?


As someone who has also dabbled in conformation (others who are more experienced can variety if this is right or wrong) and this is my personal experience showing jack Russell's ...

Bear has won over dogs who were conformationally better put together then he was, he won because he had more presence then the 2nd place dog, more spark, more ... Of that "something extra" that makes a jack Russell a jack Russell. 

On the subject of Rottweilers I for one wish they would make it so rotts couldn't be shown with a docked tail anymore. I know there are some working breeders who keep the tails.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> On the subject of Rottweilers I for one wish they would make it so rotts couldn't be shown with a docked tail anymore. I know there are some working breeders who keep the tails.


Some people do show undocked Rotts and I guess they occasionally do win. But a tail that is docked but docked to the wrong length is a major fault, the dog will not win. Which is pretty dang ridiculous and pretty much rules out any claims of shows not being beauty pageants. If beauty pageants were judged on how good the contestants' plastic surgeons were .


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Some people do show undocked Rotts and I guess they occasionally do win. But a tail that is docked but docked to the wrong length is a major fault, the dog will not win. Which is pretty dang ridiculous and pretty much rules out any claims of shows not being beauty pageants. If beauty pageants were judged on how good the contestants' plastic surgeons were .



I saw at least one rottie with undocked tail on Saturday...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

InkedMarie said:


> look at that cute little peeb!


I love that breed, I love watching them in the ring and I love saying their full name it's so fun to say


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Some people do show undocked Rotts and I guess they occasionally do win. But a tail that is docked but docked to the wrong length is a major fault, the dog will not win. Which is pretty dang ridiculous and pretty much rules out any claims of shows not being beauty pageants. If beauty pageants were judged on how good the contestants' plastic surgeons were .


In a sense of the word, yes they are to some extent beauty pageants, remember they are to available breeding stock so why shouldn't the do he pretty? but working breeds and terriers are allowed to show with flaws and "battle scars" from working, as long as it doesn't impede their gait or ability to breed. Hence why I would rather see an undocked rottie tail then an incorrectly docked one. 

Also it is up to the breeder to know their breed and know how and where to dock the tails. In most breeds that dock tails the "serious fault" rule is common. It is in JRT's because a tail too short is bad because there would be nothing for the owner to grab if he needs to out his dog from a hole. Too long and the tail can be a hindrance under ground.

You could also say the same with undesirable markings, how JRT's with too much color are DQ'd ... Even if otherwise they are a picture of the breed ... Because it's important for the dog to be predominantly white so the hunter can tell it apart from the quarry in the darkness of a hole. I am also sure they are reasons for rules like the length of the docked tail in rotties, but since I am not an expert in that breed I can't say.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If shows are "to evaluate potential breeding stock", they should be evaluating things that actually would have an effect on future generations. Undesirable markings I suppose would be genetic (actually I'm not sure that color placement is genetic but let's say it is for argument's sake), but the length the tail was cut will have no impact on future generations. 

Look, we're being told that showing is Important to average dog owners and dogs in general. That it's supposed to make dogs better and that only an irresponsible fool would buy a purebred from a breeder that doesn't show. People in most hobbies freely acknowledge that their hobby means nothing to anybody who isn't into that hobby. But dog showing is touted to be a super important thing to anybody who likes dogs. But it's not. It's a game with arbitrary rules like any other game. Meaningless to anybody who doesn't want to play that game.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

In some breeds conformation showing isn't everything. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable buying a working or herding breed that only had conformation titles and no working titles. Because I want a dog who is from lines who have the nerve as well as the physical strength and toughness to do their original form of function.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> She's like the top winning PBGV of all time.


 Fairchild, I think.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Look, we're being told that showing is Important to average dog owners and dogs in general. That it's supposed to make dogs better and that only an irresponsible fool would buy a purebred from a breeder that doesn't show. People in most hobbies freely acknowledge that their hobby means nothing to anybody who isn't into that hobby. But dog showing is touted to be a super important thing to anybody who likes dogs. But it's not. It's a game with arbitrary rules like any other game. Meaningless to anybody who doesn't want to play that game.


Where did anyone say that in this thread? You seem to be reading a lot into this thread that just isn't there.

Yes, lots of people will tell potential puppy buyers to look for breeders who show, but that's because it's generally the show people who are health testing and trying to improve the breed in some way, vs BYB who don't show their dog in any venue or otherwise prove it's a reasonably good example of the breed. If a potential buyer decided to go with a working breeder instead, who was also trying to breed healthy and able dogs, nobody would have an issue with it. In many breeds, those show breeders are probably the best bet for the average family looking for a nice pet because they will get a dog from health tested lines who is pretty temperamentally sound, and generally fits the breed standard. Someone looking for a dog for work or sports would probably look at breeders who specialize in those things, maybe in addition to conformation, or maybe not. 

Proving that a dog generally fits his breed standard isn't pointless - why would anybody buy purebred dogs if they didn't look and act like that breed? The point of dog shows is to say whether that dog generally fits the look of his breed standard or not. It's not a perfect system, but then nothing is. There are other titles and venues for proving that a dog has the other attributes of his breed, like herding or hunting ability. 

Nobody said dog shows are the be all and end all to dog breeding, so I'm not sure why you're trying to prove otherwise.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Yes, lots of people will tell potential puppy buyers to look for breeders who show, but that's because it's generally the show people who are health testing and trying to improve the breed in some way,


But those looking for pet dogs (I'm not counting working dogs here---of course you'd want dogs from working parents) aren't told "find a breeder who health tests and cares about their dogs and dogs in general". No, they're told to make sure that breeder shows! 

It's being made pretty clear that showing is not about "proving that a dog generally meets his breed standard", because anybody with eyeballs and a breed description ought to be able to tell that. If evaluating breed standard were the point, dogs would be evaluated on an individual basis against the standard, not competing against other dogs. It's about who makes their dog prettiest and walks them around the best and has the most money and time for driving around going to shows.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I don't know much about conformation, to me at least it sort of feels like the thing that only people with the best of the best can do and although I would really like to show my dogs someday it seems pretty out of my league. I wanted to show Eko but I don't think he is really a show quality dog, he is a pet. I don't know how popular they are in conformation but we will be getting a bloodhound at some point, not soon but years from now, and since I have so much time to research and find the right dog I would be very interested in getting a show quality puppy and at least trying  Seems like fun we have a dog show that comes through Kansas sometimes and I'm always dying to go but I usually work and I am too shy to ask any of the hotel guests staying for the show any questions.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> But those looking for pet dogs (I'm not counting working dogs here---of course you'd want dogs from working parents) aren't told "find a breeder who health tests and cares about their dogs and dogs in general". No, they're told to make sure that breeder shows!


How many breeders have you met who health test but don't show or prove their dog in any way? Not saying they don't exist, but the two tend to go together. Most breeders who are members of the breed club won't breed dogs who don't have their Ch title, so a breeder going outside of that group isn't going to have access to a lot of quality dogs to breed with. Plus, most decent breeders will sell dogs on limited registration, and have contracts requiring dogs finish a Ch title before breeding, so that new breeder who doesn't show won't be able to get a dog from just anywhere. Someone could get a couple dogs from BYB breeders, health test them, and breed from them, but that's just not the norm and would be like finding a needle in a haystack for most people new to dog buying. 



> It's being made pretty clear that showing is not about "proving that a dog generally meets his breed standard", because anybody with eyeballs and a breed description ought to be able to tell that. It's about who makes their dog prettiest and walks them around the best and has the most money and time for driving around going to shows.


At the low levels, in the classes, in the majority of breeds, it's absolutely about which dogs fit the breed standard. I'm not a good handler, and my dog is not very well trained, and he doesn't have top notch grooming, but he wins. Why? Because he has a good temperament and is put together well. He's still underdeveloped, but he shows promise and the parts are in the right places, as his breeder says, so he wins, even against dogs who are presented better than him. That is how it should be. You win some and you lose some, but a dog who is generally high quality won't have a hard time finishing in most breeds.

I honestly don't consider it a sport, for myself. I'm there to prove that my dog is a good representative of his breed, so he can possibly be bred some day, and that's about it. The Ch in front of his name is one piece of the puzzle. I think tons of people are in the same boat as me - they enjoy it, and they put effort into it, but it's not the biggest most important thing in the world (or in their breeding program). 

If I decide to continue showing him as a special, then it will be about the sport. He will have already proven that he's a decent dog, and then it will be about how well I can present him and how well trained he is, to compete against other dogs who are also good representatives of the breed. 

At the higher levels, in BOB (especially for some breeds), the group ring, and BIS, presentation, training, and skills are a huge part of the win. By the time you're at that level, it's understood that your dog is a good representative of his breed.

I've never heard someone tell a new puppy buyer to only check out breeders who have nationally ranked show dogs. Obviously at that level a lot of it is about how much money you have to get out to shows every weekend. But it shouldn't be that hard to find someone who puts a Ch title on their dogs before breeding.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> Fairchild, I think.


yep it is.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Sarah~ said:


> I don't know much about conformation, to me at least it sort of feels like the thing that only people with the best of the best can do and although I would really like to show my dogs someday it seems pretty out of my league. I wanted to show Eko but I don't think he is really a show quality dog, he is a pet. I don't know how popular they are in conformation but we will be getting a bloodhound at some point, not soon but years from now, and since I have so much time to research and find the right dog I would be very interested in getting a show quality puppy and at least trying  Seems like fun we have a dog show that comes through Kansas sometimes and I'm always dying to go but I usually work and I am too shy to ask any of the hotel guests staying for the show any questions.


Many breeders will sell non-show quality dogs on limited registration, so future puppies can't be registered. Dogs on limited registration, or dogs who are spayed/neutered, can't be shown, because the purpose is to look at breeding stock and those dogs won't be bred. There are always performance type shows for pet dogs though, like obedience, rally, agility, etc.

If you are interested in showing, talk to breeders. Many will take a chance on a new person and help mentor you in the show world. I got my puppy because the show buyer in the litter fell through. He was going to a pet home no matter what, unless my breeder could convince one of us pet buyers to try showing, and I agreed to it. I'm not required to show him or anything, but I promised I'd give it a shot. Four puppies in the litter were considered pet quality, and they cost the same as my pup. It's not like an elite thing where only super rich people can get a show dog. Entry fees are typically $30, and I haven't spent any money staying over night at a show.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> How many breeders have you met who health test but don't show or prove their dog in any way?


I'm wondering what would happen to a breeder who wanted to do right by his/her dogs and do all the appropriate health testing but didn't want to show. I'm thinking they would be considered a BYB by anyone who was "into" the breed. I also wonder how many good breeders really hate showing and only do it because they're "supposed to".

If evaluating breeding stock were the point, dogs would be evaluated individually against the breed standard by experts in the breed. Not making it a competition, which is fairly useless as evaluation (the best of a mediocre bunch is not the best and the worst of a really great bunch is not the worst)


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> But those looking for pet dogs (I'm not counting working dogs here---of course you'd want dogs from working parents) aren't told "find a breeder who health tests and cares about their dogs and dogs in general". No, they're told to make sure that breeder shows!
> 
> It's being made pretty clear that showing is not about "proving that a dog generally meets his breed standard", because anybody with eyeballs and a breed description ought to be able to tell that. If evaluating breed standard were the point,* dogs would be evaluated on an individual basis against the standard*, not competing against other dogs. It's about who makes their dog prettiest and walks them around the best and has the most money and time for driving around going to shows.


Isn't that... exactly what is going on? That was always the impression I had anyway.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I'm wondering what would happen to a breeder who wanted to do right by his/her dogs and do all the appropriate health testing but didn't want to show. I'm thinking they would be considered a BYB by anyone who was "into" the breed.


Probably not BYB, but I'm sure people would ask how they know the dogs are quality if nobody is independently verifying it. If the breeder is only breeding dogs with a CGC and therapy dog designations (for example), plus health testing, I think people would be just fine with it because those dogs are proven to have good temperaments. I think most people just want a breeder to prove in some small way that their dog is worthy of being bred and will improve the breed. 




> I also wonder how many good breeders really hate showing and only do it because they're "supposed to".


I'm sure quite a few. So what? I don't like paying a ton of money to get my dog's hips xrayed either, but I do it because it's the responsible thing to do. At the end of the day, health testing will likely cost more than I have spent on show entry fees.



> If evaluating breeding stock were the point, dogs would be evaluated individually against the breed standard by experts in the breed. Not making it a competition, which is fairly useless as evaluation (the best of a mediocre bunch is not the best and the worst of a really great bunch is not the worst)


This is something that some people do. I know of a golden breeder who breeds for performance (obedience/agility) and whose dogs probably wouldn't finish in the AKC because they don't fit the trend for goldens. However, they get the dogs independently evaluated, by a group meant for just this purpose, to prove that they are generally sound and of good functional conformation.

Again, I think most people would be fine with a system like this, but it just doesn't exist for most breeds.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> Isn't that... exactly what is going on? That was always the impression I had anyway.


Yep.

I saw a dog earn second place when he was the only entry, because he had a poor temperament. The "best of a bad bunch" thing doesn't really hold up.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Again, I think most people would be fine with a system like this, but it just doesn't exist for most breeds.


If most people would be fine with a system like that, I think it would actually exist for all breeds.

If the dogs were independently evaluated against the standard in an unbiased manner, it wouldn't matter who handled them or how well they were presented or any of that.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> If the dogs were independently evaluated against the standard in an unbiased manner, it wouldn't matter who handled them or how well they were presented or any of that.


:headesk:

Have you shown a dog? Ever?

Did you read any of my posts?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Willowy said:


> But those looking for pet dogs (I'm not counting working dogs here---of course you'd want dogs from working parents) aren't told "find a breeder who health tests and cares about their dogs and dogs in general". No, they're told to make sure that breeder shows!


On this message board, I've not seen anyone say, "make sure that breeder shows" without also saying make sure the breeder conducts appropriate health testing, assesses temperament, and treats their dogs well. 



> It's being made pretty clear that showing is not about "proving that a dog generally meets his breed standard", because anybody with eyeballs and a breed description ought to be able to tell that. If evaluating breed standard were the point, dogs would be evaluated on an individual basis against the standard, not competing against other dogs. It's about who makes their dog prettiest and walks them around the best and has the most money and time for driving around going to shows.


What elrohwen said. The dogs *are* judged against the standard *not* other dogs; it's a criterion-referenced assessment, not normative. Once dogs get to higher levels of competition, the dogs are known to be excellent representations of the breed. A bit of sparkle or flash can be the difference between winning and losing but it's not at the expense of overall structure and conformation to breed standard.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I'm wondering what would happen to a breeder who wanted to do right by his/her dogs and do all the appropriate health testing but didn't want to show. I'm thinking they would be considered a BYB by anyone who was "into" the breed. I also wonder how many good breeders really hate showing and only do it because they're "supposed to".


A breeder who "wants to do right by their dogs" would be concerned with making sure their dogs fit the breed standard before making more of them, which is accomplished by conformation showing...

And yeah, I pick up my dogs poop because I'm supposed to and its part of being a responsible dog owner, not because I like doing it. Breeders health test because they're supposed to and its part of being a responsible dog breeder. Breeders prove themselves in a venue (even if it isnt conformation) because its part of being a responsible dog breeder.

I'm not really seeing how conformation shows are so OMG EW BEAUTY PAGEANTS FOR DOGS THIS IS STUPID when compared to all the other venues. If you want to own a dog and prove that it looks like the breed should, more power to you. I'm not going to berate you for wanting to breed dogs to the freakin standard, thats what purebred dogs are. (and this is not to you in particular, just in general to the people that fall into the "I want a purebred dog so I know what its going to look like but dog shows are stupid" category.)


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Willowy said:


> If most people would be fine with a system like that, I think it would actually exist for all breeds.
> 
> If the dogs were independently evaluated against the standard in an unbiased manner, it wouldn't matter who handled them or how well they were presented or any of that.





Willowy said:


> If evaluating breeding stock were the point, dogs would be evaluated individually against the breed standard by experts in the breed. Not making it a competition, which is fairly useless as evaluation (the best of a mediocre bunch is not the best and the worst of a really great bunch is not the worst)


Um, you realize that this system you're imagining does exist, right? Its called getting an "International Championship" and guess how reliable it is... the dogs are judged against a written standard with no other dog in sight, and as a result dogs that look nothing like their breed become CHAMPIONS!!!

http://www.iabca.com/titlerequirements.html

Oh look... an International Champion that was judged independently and therefore unbiased... is the sire of a Silver Lab. Hmm. Thats strange...

http://www.silvertonelabs.com/Sires Page.htm

Ahhh yes, here it is. A form is definitely a better way of judging.

http://www.silvertonelabs.com/Eaglewings ciritque.htm

They said he has a nice head. So strange, his earset is completely off. I guess thats what happens when dogs are judged against writing and not against actual physical dogs...

Also glad that his first litter produced all silver puppies. Who needs AKC color standards, anyway? This boy is a freakin INTERNATIONAL Champion, it would obviously be a crime to not breed him with all that titling.

[can anyone tell that the fact that silver breeders can claim any sort of titling is nothing short of infuriating for me?!]


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> If most people would be fine with a system like that, I think it would actually exist for all breeds.
> 
> If the dogs were independently evaluated against the standard in an unbiased manner, it wouldn't matter who handled them or how well they were presented or any of that.


Also... humans are doing the judging, so obviously there will always be some bias involved. That's unavoidable even if you make an effort to suppress it yourself as a judge.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

cookieface said:


> On this message board, I've not seen anyone say, "make sure that breeder shows" without also saying make sure the breeder conducts appropriate health testing, assesses temperament, and treats their dogs well.
> 
> 
> 
> What elrohwen said. The dogs *are* judged against the standard *not* other dogs; it's a criterion-referenced assessment, not normative. Once dogs get to higher levels of competition, the dogs are known to be excellent representations of the breed. A bit of sparkle or flash can be the difference between winning and losing but it's not at the expense of overall structure and conformation to breed standard.


I Agree, all I have heard from people when giving advice about breeders is. "Make sure they health test" some say "showing and/or working is a plus" but never have I ever read in my recent memory someone saying "make sure the breeder shows their dogs " as the first piece of advice.

@willowy I am curious for he source of your apparent sustain for shows and people who show.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly, I get what Willowy is saying. She is suggesting something like a rating system. You're not out to win over the other dogs, your dog just gets something saying 'yes this dog is a quality X breed'.

I actually like that better in theory. 

Anyways, we showed Beau. He loved it. He was handled by a professional handler his career though I went to most his shows. He was a very nice dog and finished in no time flat. Papillons are pretty competitive around here too. 

Honestly, I don't like conformation showing at all and find it fairly pointless. I've been thoroughly underwhelmed by the knowledge base from the confo people I've been around too. Not the breeders but handlers although some of the breeders I've been less than impressed with too. Too much politics and too much focus on silly things like painting a blaze on a dog when a lack of a blaze isn't a fault or anything in our breed standard. Why would a blaze matter at all?

I think the THEORY of conformation showing makes sense but the practice doesn't work out. I used to really want to get involved but the performance arena is so so so much more my style.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm going to try to answer this, because clearly I have nothing better to do with my time.



Willowy said:


> If most people would be fine with a system like that, I think it would actually exist for all breeds.


The thing is, conformation shows work just fine for most breeds. That's why it's the current system. Obviously for goldens some people wanted a different system, because many show dogs follow a certain type, and dogs outside of that type won't win, even if they do conform to the standard. And the breeder I'm thinking of goes above and beyond to prove that their dogs are stellar performance dogs. Obviously they are doing everything in their power to prove that their dogs deserve to be bred, not just health testing.

In my breed and many others, that's not really an issue because it's not a super popular breed where one type is winning over others. Any decent representative of the breed should be able to finish.

Still, if there were a system like that (that worked!) and breeders had their dogs evaluated by it, I don't think most people would have anything negative to say about it.



> If the dogs were independently evaluated against the standard in an unbiased manner, it wouldn't matter who handled them or how well they were presented or any of that.


The dog pretty much has to stand still so its structure can be assessed, and trot in a circle so its movement can be assessed. If the dog is fidgeting and galloping around like a loon, those basic things can't be judged. At the basic class level, that's really all it takes. Trust me. I've put points on my dog with little more than that, because he was the better dog. It's really not that hard to get a Ch title on a decent dog to have outside proof that they are, in fact, decent representatives of their breed.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I'm sure quite a few. So what? I don't like paying a ton of money to get my dog's hips xrayed either, but I do it because it's the responsible thing to do.


Engaging in a sport (as even the title says) that one does not enjoy is pointless. And saying that it's the responsible thing to do the same way health care is the responsible thing to do is saying that it matters more than any hobby/sport/game. Is it a sport or not?



> @willowy I am curious for he source of your apparent sustain for shows and people who show.


Sustain??? Confused.

I have no problem with any sport or hobby anybody chooses to pursue, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Their money, their time, etc.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> I'm wondering what would happen to a breeder who wanted to do right by his/her dogs and do all the appropriate health testing but didn't want to show. I'm thinking they would be considered a BYB by anyone who was "into" the breed. I also wonder how many good breeders really hate showing and only do it because they're "supposed to".


Some people are fine with supporting a breeder who does not prove their dogs in any way. I'd prefer to support a breeder who is actively working towards improving the next generation and, for me, part of that is getting an independent evaluation of the dog (and I'd like to see multiple titles in different areas).

I know of several breeders who don't enjoy showing. They use handlers or try to finish their dogs quickly so that they can get on to things they do enjoy (e.g., agility, obedience). Still, they see some value in conformation showing and do it because it's an important aspect of evaluating their dogs.



ireth0 said:


> Also... humans are doing the judging, so obviously there will always be some bias involved. That's unavoidable even if you make an effort to suppress it yourself as a judge.


Exactly! If the standards were written so as to eliminate bias in judging, they would be ridiculous. It would come down to measuring leg length and distance between ears and using a protractor to assess angles. 



Laurelin said:


> Honestly, I get what Willowy is saying. She is suggesting something like a rating system. You're not out to win over the other dogs, your dog just gets something saying 'yes this dog is a quality X breed'.
> 
> I actually like that better in theory.
> 
> ...


There are some things about certain breed standards that I find silly. The length of tail dock, for example, or, in poodles, color. 

I can't really fault handlers for not being knowledgeable about breeds if that's what you're saying. Some handlers show a variety of breeds and they may know how they should look and move, what judges are looking for, and how to "show" well, I wouldn't expect them to be familiar with details of the breeds' health issues, lines, and pedigrees. 

_Breeders_ who aren't knowledgeable about those things is another story. I expect that breeders will be experts on all aspects of a breed. That said, if they are actively learning, that's a good thing. I know of several people who have their first show dog and just starting their breeding programs and relying on advice from their mentors.

For several reasons, I like to see breeders involved in some area of the dog world: conformation, performance, and/or work.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Engaging in a sport (as even the title says) that one does not enjoy is pointless. And saying that it's the responsible thing to do the same way health care if the responsible thing to do is saying that it matters more than any hobby/sport/game. Is it a sport or not?


For me, it's not. I already said that. For me it's a necessary step to prove that my dog is possibly breeding quality.


Beyond the class level, and in certain breeds, it is a sport and requires as much work and preparation as other dog sports. For certain people, it's absolutely a sport and a passion and a hobby.

It's not different than if a breeder said "I really need to get a CD on this dog to prove that he's biddable and obedient before breeding, even though I don't particularly enjoy obedience competition." Other people might find obedience competition to be the best and most fun thing in the world. Different people enjoy different things. So what?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Engaging in a sport (as even the title says) that one does not enjoy is pointless. And saying that it's the responsible thing to do the same way health care if the responsible thing to do is saying that it matters more than any hobby/sport/game. Is it a sport or not?


But lots of people engage in a variety of sports/hobbies they don't personally enjoy for a variety of reasons. I don't think anyone said it mattered MORE than another dog sport. If I wanted a performance agility dog, I would absolutely care how the parents did in agility more than if they conformed to the breed standard.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You can't, by definition, have a hobby you don't enjoy 

Hobby: an activity done regularly in one's leisure time *for pleasure*

But I suppose some people do engage in sports they don't enjoy, maybe because they're being pressured by someone else. It still seems fairly pointless to me.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> You can't, by definition, have a hobby you don't enjoy
> 
> Hobby: an activity done regularly in one's leisure time *for pleasure*
> 
> But I suppose some people do engage in sports they don't enjoy, maybe because they're being pressured by someone else. It still seems fairly pointless to me.


I dunno, I was thinking about executives who have to play golf even though they don't enjoy it because that's how business is done. Or doing an activity that you personally don't like but a spouse/friend enjoys so you do it with them, or a traditional activity you don't like but is part of your culture so you participate, or doing a dog sport that you personally don't really like but your dog enjoys, and so on, and so on...

Just because it's your personal opinion doesn't mean it doesn't happen or even that it's uncommon.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> It still seems fairly pointless to me.


And what's your point?

The purpose of this thread was to discuss conformation showing, not whether you approve of what people do with their time. If you don't like shows, don't compete in them.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't object to what other people do in their spare time. As I said in my first post, it's a nice sport for people who enjoy it. 

I object to it being held up as something special/responsible/necessary/Important for dogs and those who enjoy dogs.

The original question was, what do you think of conformation showing? I answered that .


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> And what's your point?
> 
> The purpose of this thread was to discuss conformation showing, not whether you approve of what people do with their time. If you don't like shows, don't compete in them.


yes, really :-/


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I don't object to what other people do in their spare time. As I said in my first post, it's a nice sport for people who enjoy it.
> 
> *I object to it being held up as something special/responsible/necessary/Important for dogs and those who enjoy dogs.*
> 
> The original question was, what do you think of conformation showing? I answered that .


When did that take place?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Yeah, I have to say I would prefer to go to a breeder who shows. Our breeder definitely does and our pup has conformation champions all throughout her pedigree. For me, it's important because my chosen breed is so prone to issues that knowing a breeder is trying hard to keep her dogs to the breed standard and healthy is really important. Heath testing is, of course, the MOST important. 

I would, personally, be really wary of a breeder who doesn't show, and I know that the Newf people I talk to wouldn't recommend someone who didn't show. I guess I like knowing that the dogs in my pup's family have been independently verified as good examples of Newfs. Now that said, our pup's mum doesn't have her champion title yet (dad does, though, and MAN is he handsome. WHEW!). So I'm obviously not completely militant about it, but knowing that the breeder does show is something that's very attractive to me.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Honestly, I get what Willowy is saying. She is suggesting something like a rating system. You're not out to win over the other dogs, your dog just gets something saying 'yes this dog is a quality X breed'.
> 
> (...)
> 
> I think the THEORY of conformation showing makes sense but the practice doesn't work out. I used to really want to get involved but the performance arena is so so so much more my style.


I agree with this. 

I've also wondered what the effect would be if the element of competition was taken out of dog showing. So it'd be more about the quality of the dogs and assessing their... typeyness. If that's even a word. Don't know if that's a word. Anyways. 

So the most important thing wouldn't be 'this dog is the best of the best of THE BEST of that breed!' 
but rather it'd be 'this dog fits the standard, these are its strong points and these are its weak points.' 
No nonsense. To the point. Though admittedly, less fancy than competing for championships. But personally I'm more of a no nonsense type when it comes to this, so I like the no nonsense approach better. 

Of course the judging would still be with other dogs in a ring so a judge can compare, and a dog would need to be judged multiple times under different judges so a fair assessment can be made. But it wouldn't be a competition, it would solely be about the dog's... there it comes again... typeyness. 

Just some musings.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Avie said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I've also wondered what the effect would be if the element of competition was taken out of dog showing. So it'd be more about the quality of the dogs and assessing their... typeyness. If that's even a word. Don't know if that's a word. Anyways.
> 
> ...


Okay, again, isn't this exactly what is currently happening in conformation shows?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Avie said:


> Of course the judging would still be with other dogs in a ring so a judge can compare, and a dog would need to be judged multiple times under different judges so a fair assessment can be made. But it wouldn't be a competition, it would solely be about the dog's... there it comes again... typeyness.


I don't disagree with this, but it's basically what happens in conformation shows now. I still think that conformation shows work in practice more often than they don't work, which is why they are still the standard. If I were going to create the perfect system, I wouldn't create it exactly like conformation showing, but on the whole I think it does the job.

I'm more interested in the performance side of things too, but I also see the value in a dog (in my breed specifically) having a Ch in front of his name.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Avie said:


> I've also wondered what the effect would be if the element of competition was taken out of dog showing. So it'd be more about the quality of the dogs and assessing their... typeyness. If that's even a word. Don't know if that's a word. Anyways.


And it would still be a competition. Now a dog has a Ch title or it doesn't, and that just indicates some moderate level of quality. With this type of system, it would be "Well, my dog's head is a 10, and your dog's head is only a 7." And with people judging, it would still never be fully unbiased.

There is always an element of competition. That's kind of the point of breeding to better the breed - you need to compete in some way to prove that your dogs are better than average and worthy of carrying on their genes.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> And it would still be a competition. Now a dog has a Ch title or it doesn't, and that just indicates some moderate level of quality. With this type of system, it would be "Well, my dog's head is a 10, and your dog's head is only a 7." And with people judging, it would still never be fully unbiased.
> 
> There is always an element of competition. That's kind of the point of breeding to better the breed - you need to compete in some way to prove that your dogs are better than average and worthy of carrying on their genes.


I need to clarify; the end result of the dog show of my musings would be a list of dogs (probably small) that don't fit the standard and a list of dogs that do fit the standard. So there's no single 'winner'. Just dogs who succeed and who don't. The judge evaluates the dog on its head, tail set, etcetera. but it isn't graded like 7 or 10 like you say, because grades don't say anything imo. If I go to school tomorrow and I get my report back with a 6 stamped on it, I still don't know what needs improvement. The judge will need to be descriptive, not give grades.  

In my eyes it wouldn't be a competition, but an evaluation, nothing more. 

I guess I just don't like the competition element, and I don't like the fact that, like you say, there's always an element of competition. I'd love it if it were just about the dogs, and about the breed, and not about scores and being better than other dogs and winning. 

But that's a personal character trait of mine, not liking competitions. 



> That's kind of the point of breeding to better the breed - you need to compete in some way to prove that your dogs are better than average and worthy of carrying on their genes.


About this, why can't 'bettering the breed' be about aiming to get the population of said breed to the point where all average dogs are good examples of the breed, both in health and structure? May be straying off topic here, but there's quite a bit of emphasis on a dog having to beat other dogs, be better than other dogs, to distinguish itself from other dogs, before it's worthy to breed. Why should this be? 

To my understanding, it is this practice that causes (in part) a low number of dogs actually reproducing, losing many genes every generation, thereby reducing the gene pool every generation. So then, wouldn't it be beneficial to breeds in general if more average dogs that simply fit the standard would be allowed to breed too? Even if they didn't beat other dogs, or distinguish themselves in some way. If they are healthy, sound in mind and body and fit the breed standard... why not? 

I'm not criticizing, just musings of mine.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

Willowy said:


> It's being made pretty clear that showing is not about "proving that a dog generally meets his breed standard", because anybody with eyeballs and a breed description ought to be able to tell that. If evaluating breed standard were the point, dogs would be evaluated on an individual basis against the standard, not competing against other dogs. It's about who makes their dog prettiest and walks them around the best and has the most money and time for driving around going to shows.


Eyeballs and a breed standard just don't cut it, and I can tell you that from personal experience. 

We had a pet Samoyed when I was an adolescent and I loved that dog. I thought he was absolutely beautiful and from reading the breed standard I thought he fit it to a T. After I had been involved in breeding and showing for a while, I came across old pictures of that dog. Ugh. While he was a dear pet, as a Samoyed goes he was actually pretty ugly. Round eyes, straight in shoulder, short necked, and did not move with the smooth efficient gait you want to see in a working dog. 

So many times I have seen the same situation. Somebody with a dearly loved pet who tells me that they fit the breed standard just right, when I can see that the dog is obviously not breeding quality even though it's a breed I have no experience with. It is human nature for everybody to think that their dog is The Most Beautiful Dog In The World. 

A breed standard is only a starting point. There is so much more that you can only learn at shows and by seeing dogs from many bloodlines. For example, the Samoyed standard tells us that we want an almond shaped eye, not a round one. My pet Samoyed did not really have a round eye, but it was rounder than is desired. And I have never seen a Samoyed with an eye that was actually shaped like a real almond. After you have been around enough dogs with a variety of eye shapes, you understand what is meant by an almond eye. Only with that experience can you see an eye and say "that one." That is the ideal and what I want to breed.

In a world without dog shows, I might have ended up breeding Samoyeds that looked like that first pet of mine. Somebody in the next town could be breeding Samoyeds with so much coat they look like overgrown Pomeranians. Out the other way, somebody decides they want to breed Samoyeds with coats like Siberians. Without shows, there would not be any breed type at all.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Yes, but ear set and carriage don't change just because you threw bait down and made the dog look more alert. It has nothing to do with the dog's genetic superiority, which is what we're told is the main purpose of showing, yes?


Have you ever seen a person, man or woman, and thought that their poor posture was ruining what could have been a very appealing physique? I bet most of us have. A couple times I've just wanted to shake them and say "You are so pretty, PLEASE stand up straight!" 

If you were evaluating a group of humans that you don't know for possible breeding purposes it would be really hard to go with the one with bad posture. You'd also want to go with the one that looked alert, not with the one with a dull vacant expression on their face. 

That's what you happens with a dog when you get them to stack properly and use bait to get the right expression. You get their best "posture" and look of lively intensity on their face. Just like people, their faces can light up or be flat.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> Many breeders will sell non-show quality dogs on limited registration, so future puppies can't be registered. Dogs on limited registration, or dogs who are spayed/neutered, can't be shown, because the purpose is to look at breeding stock and those dogs won't be bred. There are always performance type shows for pet dogs though, like obedience, rally, agility, etc.
> 
> If you are interested in showing, talk to breeders. Many will take a chance on a new person and help mentor you in the show world. I got my puppy because the show buyer in the litter fell through. He was going to a pet home no matter what, unless my breeder could convince one of us pet buyers to try showing, and I agreed to it. I'm not required to show him or anything, but I promised I'd give it a shot. Four puppies in the litter were considered pet quality, and they cost the same as my pup. It's not like an elite thing where only super rich people can get a show dog. Entry fees are typically $30, and I haven't spent any money staying over night at a show.


Wow, that's more reasonable than I thought! I have thought of doing some obedience shows with Eko but we'd have to work hard to get to that point. He is very obedient, very eager to work for me I just don't work him like I probably should. So that could be fun, too, to get an idea of sort of how everything works while I look for the bloodhound I want. Maybe I can talk to some of those breeders to get some help too 




samshine said:


> So many times I have seen the same situation. Somebody with a dearly loved pet who tells me that they fit the breed standard just right, when I can see that the dog is obviously not breeding quality even though it's a breed I have no experience with. It is human nature for everybody to think that their dog is The Most Beautiful Dog In The World.


Oh man, this happened to me. I thought Eko was the perfect GSD to ever walk the earth, he is so pretty. Then I looked at all the topics on the GSD forums about show quality dogs and I was pretty disappointed. He's still beautiful to me but I had to kind of accept he is not to standard. He is oversized for sure, and I couldn't tell you what else is technically wrong but you can tell. That's ok we will find something else to try, like obedience 

Here is my terrible quality, very poor attempt to stack Eko and take a picture. He's like WTF mom! But you can see what I mean. It's dark out or I'd have done it outside


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

ireth0 said:


> Okay, again, isn't this exactly what is currently happening in conformation shows?


There is a difference... What currently happens is you have a group and the dog that is top out of the group/class gets the points. If two dogs from the group are both very nice dogs in an evaluation type setting they'd both get something saying they made a certain 'grade'. 

I actually like competitions in most things but don't feel they do the job in conformation because only one dog can win the class. I think that narrows focus and is a large cause of breeding to 'extreme typey-ness', which i feel is bad for the breed. I think we do too much weeding out on appearance alone.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Avie said:


> I need to clarify; the end result of the dog show of my musings would be a list of dogs (probably small) that don't fit the standard and a list of dogs that do fit the standard. So there's no single 'winner'. Just dogs who succeed and who don't. The judge evaluates the dog on its head, tail set, etcetera. but it isn't graded like 7 or 10 like you say, because grades don't say anything imo. If I go to school tomorrow and I get my report back with a 6 stamped on it, I still don't know what needs improvement. The judge will need to be descriptive, not give grades.
> 
> In my eyes it wouldn't be a competition, but an evaluation, nothing more.
> 
> ...


I think I understand what you're describing. The standard would be used more intentionally and transparently, similar to a rubric. The breeder / owner of the dog would get a report indicating where the dog meets the standard and where it doesn't and why. There wouldn't be awards for Best of Breed or Best Opposite Sex, just individual reports for each dog.

I see two potential downfalls. First, most good breeders (like Xeph, Finkie_mom, and others here) already know their dogs' strengths and weaknesses, so this wouldn't really give them any new information. Those that don't (or won't admit them) aren't likely to participate in any sort of evaluation. Second, I think it's partly human nature to make comparisons. Even if there were no formal winners, there would still be dogs that met the standard and those that didn't. Breeders / owners will still make comparisons even if there is no organized competition. I understand, though, I hate competition, too.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Really disappointed to see my thread has disintegrated into this


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The SV has an "impartial" ratings system by the way. In fact, VA dogs didn't Ben get number rankings this year, to prevent people from flocking to the VA1 dog.

Did it work?

No.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> There is a difference... What currently happens is you have a group and the dog that is top out of the group/class gets the points. If two dogs from the group are both very nice dogs in an evaluation type setting they'd both get something saying they made a certain 'grade'.
> 
> I actually like competitions in most things but don't feel they do the job in conformation because only one dog can win the class. I think that narrows focus and is a large cause of breeding to 'extreme typey-ness', which i feel is bad for the breed. *I think we do too much weeding out on appearance alone.*


In my mind appearance and structure / conformation to breed standard are different things. Certainly related, but different. Appearance is part of it, but I can have a very pretty dog who isn't put together properly. 

I'll use Katie as an example. Many, many people tell me she's a pretty dog (like pull over and stop their cars to tell me). But, there are dogs who meet the breed standard better than she does. I'm not an expert, but to me, her shoulder and front end are wrong, and I think she's cow hocked. Would she make pretty puppies? Sure. Would she help improve the next generation? Maybe not.



Xeph said:


> The SV has an "impartial" ratings system by the way. In fact, VA dogs didn't Ben get number rankings this year, to prevent people from flocking to the VA1 dog.
> 
> Did it work?
> 
> No.


Can you translate, please? I don't know what SV, VA, VA1, and Ben are. I think I understand your point - even without "winners" breeders still used top dogs in their breeding program?? So, this is an example of what Avie described that didn't work as envisioned?

Even with the detours, I think this is a very informative thread.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I was typing on my phone, so "ben" means absolutely nothing, LOL!

The SV system is the German grading system, which only applies to German Shepherds. VA dogs are considered "Cream of the crop". Then you have V dogs, which are "excellent", then SG "Very Good" G "Good", and after that you're getting into animals that are, for lack of a better word, sub par.

People are naturally going to want to breed to VA dogs, since they are the "best", when the best dogs can really often be in the V and high SG rated animals.

There were, I believe, 12 or 13 VA dogs this year (don't know how many VA bitches). NONE of the VA animals got ranked (1-12), they were just placed in catalog order after it was decided they were VA (and their ratings are also based on their production as stud/brood animals). Does it matter to the people that were there? No. Instead, we just have a bunch of people claiming their dog was VA 1, even though the animals were placed in catalog order.

And mostly what I'm frustrated by is a person trying to turn this thread into "Why conformation showing sucks". I did not ask what people thought of conformation showing (good or bad), I asked what they thought it WAS in terms of how does the system work.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I think that was only one person though, and the rest have had an interesting discussion. Besides that detour and banging my head on my desk repeatedly, I think it's been an overall informative thread.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Really disappointed to see my thread has disintegrated into this


Sigh.......

There are those that will never get it.... And before folks pile on me... that is not an elitest statement. 


Take a dog... The ENTIRE dog... What it looks like, On the outside... On the Inside..... In its mind.... in its heart....


Conformation is 25 percent of the dog. Things that seem trivial to some... 

Little things... Tiny things.... Minute things.....

Things like turn of stifle, layback in the shoulder, ear set... eye set... 

They may be trivial things to some... And the average dog they are... But... If a dog is going to do what it is bred to do... They can be vital. The tiniest thing can mean the difference between going flat efficiently and avoiding a bulls hoof or getting its head bashed in... A millimeter here a couple of millimeters there, means the difference between a glancing blow and death.
Ears not set just right? No matter, that bull that circled around the backside of the herd while you were working does not matter.. you do not need to get your ears around to hear exactly where it is coming from.... It won't hurt much when he pounds you to a pulp..

A dog that is coupled too short.... breaks down... Too Cobby.... can't turn. To long... etc.

Silly things like color, eye color, other visible cosmetic traits... No they are not important either... Only that... they were the genetic tests before there were genetic tests.. Why do you think there is such biased against white boxers, white GSDs? 

A dog can have all the drive, all the smarts, etc. Does no good... It the dog does not have the body to use it......It does no good...

And then you say.... but why does that matter if all I want is a pet? 

The answer to that is very simple... If you are not striving for that dog that can move, like nothing you have ever seen, body so smooth, its motion rivals the wind on long grass.... Well then... everything else falls apart... If you are not breeding toward something.... You are breeding towards nothing..... And that is what you will end up with eventually...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Let's not bring white GSDs into this. That's a huge separate issue, and they are in no way the same as white Boxers or Dobes.

But yes, your overall point is well received by me, and is an excellent one.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Xeph "they still publish the red book" ??? That is where you will find all the judges comments and detail descriptions of type per each dog in what they excel in for type and anything they feel they could be improved in..


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yup, the Red Book still exists


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

A breeder in the show world will more likely keep the best pup for themselves to keep. Leaving you with the choice of short backed, long backed dog. Not every dog in a litter will be that grand even if the parents are successful in the ring. I have truly loved and enjoyed the rejects from the rings that have ended up in my home. It did not matter that they were too tall, too short, too long, too cobby or even the wrong ear set, I have loved them and understand why the breeder elected to weed them out of their program.

Sorry to the person who goes to the pet store and thinks that by next year they will be at Madison Garden with their new puppy. If only it was that easy. 

Not my cup of tea. I do go and have many friends that are involved in the show worlds (conformation and obedience) I would rather spend my weekends on the back of a horse than stressing out at a dog show. Different strokes for different folks and that is what makes the world go around. It takes all kinds of kinds.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> A breeder in the show world will more likely keep the best pup for themselves to keep. Leaving you with the choice of short backed, long backed dog. Not every dog in a litter will be that grand even if the parents are successful in the ring. I have truly loved and enjoyed the rejects from the rings that have ended up in my home. It did not matter that they were too tall, too short, too long, too cobby or even the wrong ear set, I have loved them and understand why the breeder elected to weed them out of their program.
> 
> Sorry to the person who goes to the pet store and thinks that by next year they will be at Madison Garden with their new puppy. If only it was that easy.
> 
> Not my cup of tea. I do go and have many friends that are involved in the show worlds (conformation and obedience) I would rather spend my weekends on the back of a horse than stressing out at a dog show. Different strokes for different folks and that is what makes the world go around. It takes all kinds of kinds.


The thing is.... It is TINY differences... If the breeder is doing a GOOD job... the pets are dang nice. 

I got into the show word because the performance puppy crossed paths with the show puppy..


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

that is what you strive for in a breeding program a litter that is identical from one puppy to the next. No serious breeder wants a litter of pet quality puppies what is the purpose in that.... They are not focused on breeding pets for the public and that is the difference when your looking for a breeder. Conformation is only one step of a dog being judge as a representative of the breed but it is a valuable step to be documented in a long list of steps. I enjoyed my time being active in the dogs and I respect the work others put into theirs.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Let's not forget, luv mi pets, that "pick of the litter" is VERY subjective. And the reasons for why a breeder keeps a certain dog varies. Wesson is too long through the back, and need a harder temperament with more drives. I am hoping to get shorter backed puppies and will be keeping the one that is the best proportioned with better drives. May be the second best mover in the litter, but if the nicest mover has the longest back, that's not what I need to move my program forward.

The "best" puppy in the litter is the one that the breeder feels will move their program forward, but it doesn't mean the others aren't nice. ANY puppy can be the pick...it just depends.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> *A breeder in the show world will more likely keep the best pup for themselves to keep.* Leaving you with the choice of short backed, long backed dog. Not every dog in a litter will be that grand even if the parents are successful in the ring. I have truly loved and enjoyed the rejects from the rings that have ended up in my home. It did not matter that they were too tall, too short, too long, too cobby or even the wrong ear set, I have loved them and understand why the breeder elected to weed them out of their program.


Not necessarily!  Once you establish a relationship with a breeder, it's not uncommon for the "best" dog to go somewhere other than the breeder's own house. (Granted, building that relationship takes work, but good things come to those who work their *sses off.)


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Even after reading all this, it's still very confusing for me. haha I just found out there's a all breeds dog show coming up next weekend and I'm very excited to attend it. Perhaps it will help me understand more. lol

I do have a question though... Where would you start if you wanted to get into showing/possibly breeding? I know many reputable breeders have a strict spay/neuter contract and they make it seem like you need to already be in the sport in order to get a show quality puppy from them (for the record, I'm interested in Bulldogs, Boston Terriers and Rottweilers)


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I enjoy watching conformation for the most part, and I want to say that before I start my little rant. I think it's fun, most of the dogs look like they're enjoying it, the handlers too. As a spectator I love seeing breeds I've only read about and seen pictures of. I love it except, now for the rant, except when those breeds take the floor that have become disturbingly exaggerated. Excessive wrinkles, flat faces, excessive coat, exaggerated head shapes. Some features, like the head shape of the bull terrier, I don't think directly impact the dog other than being unnecessary and I wonder why on earth some have become so extreme. But when it comes to the flat-faced breeds that have so many problems directly related to having a flat face, and ones with so much loose skin their eyelids are pulled down and those Basset bellies are on the floor, all I can feel is sorry for them. It's awful to watch and see that people are breeding dogs to look like that just because "that's how it's supposed to be" seemingly without any thought to what is best for the dog as a DOG.

I think some of the things people do to dogs in the world of conformation are insane. Debarking (First show I ever saw in person, I was talking with a woman showing her husky and mentioned I kinda expected more "woo-ing." She got kinda tight lipped in a sad-looking way and said that most of the dogs were debarked). Even apart from the more saddening aspects, things like drawing on a mask. Chalk, powder, dye, shaving breeds that are "supposed" to only have hair in certain places, it's like a beauty pageant!!

Again.. I do love it for the most part... but I feel so, so sorry for flat-faced breeds and others than have been detrimentally exaggerated.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Sibe said:


> I enjoy watching conformation for the most part, and I want to say that before I start my little rant. I think it's fun, most of the dogs look like they're enjoying it, the handlers too. As a spectator I love seeing breeds I've only read about and seen pictures of. I love it except, now for the rant, except when those breeds take the floor that have become disturbingly exaggerated. Excessive wrinkles, flat faces, excessive coat, exaggerated head shapes. Some features, like the head shape of the bull terrier, I don't think directly impact the dog other than being unnecessary and I wonder why on earth some have become so extreme. But when it comes to the flat-faced breeds that have so many problems directly related to having a flat face, and ones with so much loose skin their eyelids are pulled down and those Basset bellies are on the floor, all I can feel is sorry for them. It's awful to watch and see that people are breeding dogs to look like that just because "that's how it's supposed to be" seemingly without any thought to what is best for the dog as a DOG.
> 
> I think some of the things people do to dogs in the world of conformation are insane. Debarking (First show I ever saw in person, I was talking with a woman showing her husky and mentioned I kinda expected more "woo-ing." She got kinda tight lipped in a sad-looking way and said that most of the dogs were debarked). Even apart from the more saddening aspects, things like drawing on a mask. Chalk, powder, dye, shaving breeds that are "supposed" to only have hair in certain places, it's like a beauty pageant!!
> 
> Again.. I do love it for the most part... but I feel so, so sorry for flat-faced breeds and others than have been detrimentally exaggerated.


I'm totally with you on the exaggerated breeds. I love Boston Terriers, Bulldogs, Pugs and so on but I cannot stand their show standard. That's why I think I'll never want to show a Bulldog or Boston simply because I know I wouldn't feel right showing a dog that had such ridiculous features. I know it sounds a little hypocritical since in my last post I mentioned showing Bulldogs/Bostons but I don't plan on showing any time soon and one can only hope there could be changes in the future! (wishful thinking lmao)


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Xeph, thank you for the explanation of SV, etc. 

I wonder if people who are drawn to showing / titling / proving their dogs are generally more competitive than other people and _that_ is the force behind much of the downside of showing rather than the showing itself.



elrohwen said:


> I think that was only one person though, and the rest have had an interesting discussion. Besides that detour and banging my head on my desk repeatedly, I think it's been an overall informative thread.


Agreed.



JohnnyBandit said:


> Sigh.......
> 
> There are those that will never get it.... And before folks pile on me... that is not an elitest statement.
> 
> ...


Nicely stated.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Can a veteran show person explain how to calculate points to me? In the most dumbed down and simple way possible lol? I've read some documents on it on Facebook...but anything mathematical tends to easily confuse me....and I still don't get it. If I continue showing Lilly, I'd like to know how to do this in the future.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

sizzledog said:


> Not necessarily!  Once you establish a relationship with a breeder, it's not uncommon for the "best" dog to go somewhere other than the breeder's own house. (Granted, building that relationship takes work, but good things come to those who work their *sses off.)


I am one of those situations...I got the best puppy out of Ocean's litter with Ocean. Lars' breeder ended up becoming the co-breeder with the lady who owns O's mother. She kept a female and Ocean came to us. Lars/Oceans' breeder has said to me on numerous occasions I got the best one from that litter...and I agree.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> Can a veteran show person explain how to calculate points to me? In the most dumbed down and simple way possible lol? I've read some documents on it on Facebook...but anything mathematical tends to easily confuse me....and I still don't get it. If I continue showing Lilly, I'd like to know how to do this in the future.


I explained it in my earlier posts. At the very end of my first post, it is there. But I can do it again for Frenchies if you like.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm not a veteran, but I understand the basics. Chaos had an awesome description earlier in this thread.

First, to know how many points are possible, you have to look at the point schedule for your region and breed. I'll use my breed since it's easy. There need to be 2 Welshie dogs entered to earn 1 point, 3 to earn 2 points, 4 to earn 4 points (a major), 5 to earn 4 points, and 6 to earn 5 points. 3-5 points are considered majors. Basically, for every dog Watson beats in the classes, he can earn a point. So let's say he beats two other dogs (3 total entered, including him) and earns 2 points, and is now Winner's Dog.

In the bitches, they have the same system. Let's say there are 5 bitches, so Miss Fluffy Pants gets Winner's Bitch and she has 4 points (according to the point schedule, since she beat out 4 other bitches).

Now Watson and Miss Fluffy Pants go into the Best of Breed ring against the specials, who are already champions. Let's say neither of them are Best of Breed or Best of Opposite Sex (because that complicates point values). If Miss Fluffy Pants gets Best of Winners, she still has her 4 points and Watson still has his 2 points.

But if Watson gets Best of Winners, then he gets 4 points, because he beat out Miss Fluffy Pants who had 4 points. She gets to keep her points and both of them now have a 4 point major. 

If either of them win the whole breed, there are more points to be had, but it gets a little confusing. The AKC site has some explanation, but I'm not sure I understand it well enough to dumb it down: http://classic.akc.org/events/conformation/counting_points.cfm

Basically, if you go BOB you get additional points for each special you beat of either gender, depending on your point schedule. If you go OS, you get points for each special you beat of your dog's own gender (so in Watson's case, every special dog), but no points for specials of the opposite gender.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I'm not a veteran, but I understand the basics. Chaos had an awesome description earlier in this thread.
> 
> First, to know how many points are possible, you have to look at the point schedule for your region and breed. I'll use my breed since it's easy. There need to be 2 Welshie dogs entered to earn 1 point, 3 to earn 2 points, 4 to earn 4 points (a major), 5 to earn 4 points, and 6 to earn 5 points. 3-5 points are considered majors. Basically, for every dog Watson beats in the classes, he can earn a point. So let's say he beats two other dogs (3 total entered, including him) and earns 2 points, and is now Winner's Dog.
> 
> ...


Yep exactly.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I do want to say that the point schedule you use will vary if you don't stick to shows in one division. You have to use the point schedule for what ever division the show is in. Because like I said earlier, they vary by region. 

So say you live in PA, but are going to a show in RI, instead of using the usual division 2 schedule to calculate you would use the division 1.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> I am one of those situations...I got the best puppy out of Ocean's litter with Ocean. Lars' breeder ended up becoming the co-breeder with the lady who owns O's mother. She kept a female and Ocean came to us. Lars/Oceans' breeder has said to me on numerous occasions I got the best one from that litter...and I agree.


This reminds me that I think nice males are easier to get in general for new show people. Lots of breeders will keep the pick girl for their own breeding program, and then look for good show/performance homes for the pick male. Watson's breeder would've preferred him to go home with a friend who would definitely show him, but she had to take a chance on me. In the future, I don't think I'll have any issues getting another show quality male, but females are still trickier. In my breed, pretty much all show quality females are co-owned with the breeder, with each co-owner getting a litter assuming she turns out well.

So for anyone looking to get their first show dog, I would recommend starting with a male. There's also the bonus that you can show and do your thing, but never have to breed the dog. If you have the pick female, there is an expectation that she will probably be bred and that's a big consideration that comes with some risk.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And for papillons in my region you'd need to beat 22 other bitches with your bitch to get a 5 point. The point schedule thing never seemed fair to me. I know why they do it to ensure that lower represented breeds are able to champ but...

Beau's 5 point major was from a BOW over nearly 50 dogs (regional specialty). Papillons around here always have one of the highest breed entries in a show.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I do want to say that the point schedule you use will vary if you don't stick to shows in one division. You have to use the point schedule for what ever division the show is in. Because like I said earlier, they vary by region.
> 
> So say you live in PA, but are going to a show in RI, instead of using the usual division 2 schedule to calculate you would use the division 1.


Good point. I show in regions 1 and 2 routinely. Males are the same in both, but the schedule for bitches is different. Since I can win a major by going Best of Winners, I have to remember that the points are counted differently in Massachusetts (where I'm going this weekend), vs New Jersey (where most of my shows have been).


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I explained it in my earlier posts. At the very end of my first post, it is there. But I can do it again for Frenchies if you like.


Will go back and read - sorry!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> And for papillons in my region you'd need to beat 22 other bitches with your bitch to get a 5 point. The point schedule thing never seemed fair to me. I know why they do it to ensure that lower represented breeds are able to champ but...
> 
> Beau's 5 point major was from a BOW over nearly 50 dogs (regional specialty). Papillons around here always have one of the highest breed entries in a show.


Your choice of breed really impacts you show experience. Plenty of Welshies finish before 2 (when they are actually physically mature) because it's not that hard. In other breeds, people don't even expect a win at all until the dog is fully mature and really competitive. 

A person showing GSDs or Dobes is going to have a totally different experience to someone showing a pretty rare breed. I'm lucky that my breed is rare and has low numbers, but there are a decent number in my area and we can make majors. Finkie_Mom has to deal with very low numbers that make it hard to find other dogs showing at all.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Point schedules are changed/updated every year. A breed could go up, down or stay the same. It all depends on litters registered/dogs registered, how many champions are made up, and entries in a certain region (this I think is the most looked at stat).


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> Will go back and read - sorry!


No problem, I would be happy to repeat specifically with Frenchies if you want.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yeah they could go up and down some but for the last... 8 years paps are still at the least top 10, often top 5, as far as popularity goes at the shows around here. I always check the big shows to see if its still as tough as it was when we showed.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Good point. I show in regions 1 and 2 routinely. Males are the same in both, but the schedule for bitches is different. Since I can win a major by going Best of Winners, I have to remember that the points are counted differently in Massachusetts (where I'm going this weekend), vs New Jersey (where most of my shows have been).


See I basically show in division three, but I do go to division 4 and 5, sometimes division 2. 

Lol if you want the best point schedule you just need to go to division 12 lol.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> No problem, I would be happy to repeat specifically with Frenchies if you want.


That would be great. I will be showing in MA & NY most likely.

Where do you find point schedules for each region?? 

Man...this is confusing haha.

Also, is this something that the ring steward calculates after a breed has finished? I know on infodog.com you can see how many points a dog has, I'm guessing that is entered by someone associated with the show?

Like, i was looking through winners for the week the other day, and saw my friends bitch who had gotten Winner's Bitch a few days at the show this past weekend. And it had how many points total she now has. Is that something that AKC enters? Or do owners update it?

http://www.infodog.com/my/dogpage.htm?akc=NP 31957701


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

One thing I thought of last night relates to dogs winning at the class level vs higher levels. I do think that dogs winning the Group, or BIS, or ranked in their breed, can tend towards the exaggerated based on what looks good in a group full of other breeds. Welshies are moderately angled, should have only moderate coat, and are not super flashy other than their color. To win at the group level, a dog needs something extra. IMO, the number one Welsh in the breed right now has way too much coat, and looks way too groomed (when the standard states that the dog should not look barbered). He's well put together and a nice dog, don't get me wrong, but his long beautiful coat and meticulous grooming helps him out at the higher levels. As far as the breed goes though, they're actually faults. It's kind of a different world when you're at that level and the dogs winning the big shows aren't necessarily best for the breed as a whole. Of course, once they're winning that much, there is the chance they will be overbred by people just looking at show records when selecting a stud.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Yeah they could go up and down some but for the last... 8 years paps are still at the least top 10, often top 5, as far as popularity goes at the shows around here. I always check the big shows to see if its still as tough as it was when we showed.


Well at least it is not labrador numbers, in my division it takes 80 bitches for a 5 point major. 19 bitches for 3 points, which is the most of any breed for a 3 point.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

meggels said:


> That would be great. I will be showing in MA & NY most likely.
> 
> Where do you find point schedules for each region??
> 
> ...


Here you go: http://www.akc.org/events/conformation/point_schedule.cfm

MA and NY are different regions (the same I show in) so check for Division 1 and 2.

The AKC keeps track of points, but I think you have to pay to get your current point value. Infodog (MB-F) will calculate points won at each show and post in the results so you can go on and check to make sure you calculated correctly. I don't know if they keep track of total points earned though - maybe at a higher membership level than I have. For other steward companies, you might have to calculate on your own.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Well at least it is not labrador numbers, in my division it takes 80 bitches for a 5 point major. 19 bitches for 3 points, which is the most of any breed for a 3 point.


Wow! I always wonder if paps are as high in numbers in other areas. After labs, goldens, bulldogs, and shelties (who I oddly usually don't see nearly as many of at shows), paps are tied for the next largest number needed in this region. Seems odd because you NEVER see them in agility around here (unless nationals is in town) and they're not like... the most common breed in the world. Not uncommon but nowhere near labs or goldens or GSDs.

Though labs, goldens, and bulldogs blow everyone else out of the water needing in the 40s for a 5 point.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

In my region paps aren't bad. It's 11 for dogs and 13 for bitches for a 5 point major.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Meggels my post for you is just about done, I have one more scenario to write. 

Elrohwen, gave you some good answers for the later part of your post.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> That would be great. I will be showing in MA & NY most likely.
> 
> Where do you find point schedules for each region??
> 
> ...


http://www.akc.org/events/conformation/point_schedule.cfm

The show catalogs you get at the show, have them in them to. 

No, the ring stewards don't calculate this. The schedules are preset at the beginning of the year, and are usually made effective by May. 

So since you said you would be showing in MA and NY the most, you would use Division 1 for MA, and Division 2 for NY. 

*Division 1 schedule*:

For Frenchies:

Dogs: 2 for 1 point, 4 for 2 points, 6 for 3 points, 8 for 4 points, 11 for 5 points

Bitches: 2 for 1 point, 7 for 2 points, 10 for 3 points, 11 for 4 points, 13 for 5 points

*Division 2 schedule *:

For Frenchies

Dogs: 2 for 1 point, 4 for 2 points, 6 for 3 points, 7 for 4 points, 10 for 5 points

Bitches: 2 for 1 point, 5 for 2 points, 8 for 3 points, 9 for 4 points, 12 for 5 points

As you can see it takes slightly less for the higher amount in division 2 than in division 1. 

I am just going to use the same point schedule for all of these, makes it simple.

*Scenario 1*: 

Say you are taking your bitch to a show in NY, the entries are as such 7-8 (1-1). So there are 7 dogs entered, 8 bitches entered and one dog special and one bitch special. It is a 4 point major right on the dot for dogs, and a 3 point major right on the dog for bitches. All the dogs show up, meaning they all pick up their number, they all show, so the 4 point major holds for them. But oh no, only 7 bitches show up, breaking the major, gotta love when that happens lol. Now more can pull because maybe they just need majors and don't want to steal singles from a bitch that needs it, but for this scenario we will just stick with the 7. 

The bitch that wins will just get 2 points, since there wasn't enough that showed up for 3. Now if the judge was nice, and really liked the bitch, he or she may put them up for BOW (which I will discuss in another scenario), but in this one the judge just really liked the male. So in the end, the male dog gets 4 points major, and the bitch 2 points.

*Scenario 2*: 

Using the same point schedule, since you just love going to NY lol. Here is the entry for this show 10-5 (1-1)

If all show up it will be 5 points for dogs, 2 points for bitches. 

But all did not show up, 8 dogs and 5 bitches plus the two specials showed up. This means the 5 point major broke, and is now a 4 point major, still 2 points in bitches. 

Your showing your bitch anyways, even though she just needs majors. Reason being that there is a major in dogs. 

So say your bitch goes WB for the two points, and nice dog went WD. But your bitch is a better bitch than he is a dog. If the judge is smart he would put you up for BOW. And in this case he/she does. 

Now by you going BOW, you get to share in the boys points, which means instead of you getting 2 points, you would get a 4 point major. Very nice of the judge huh, lol. 

*Scenario 3*: 

Same schedule, you just love NY so much that you want to go to a third show. 

Here is the entry breakdown to said show: 10-9 (1-1) 

So as it stands now, the dog would get a 5 point major, the bitch a 4 point. Now lets say at the beginning of the show, one of the bitches gets sick and has to pull, which would drop it down to a 3 point major, it's still a major just not as pretty. All 10 dogs show up so the 5 point holds. 

Your bitch goes WB, and a nice dog goes WD (the nice dog even has a handler on it). Both get majors, WD just gets a higher major. Now in BOB competition, because your bitch is nicer than the dog, the judge pulls you into the BOW spot, and sends you around. Then the judge points to you for BOW. Now that is great, but what makes it even more great is again you share in the points for the dog, and since he got more points than you, you get that 5 point major. :whoo:

*Scenario 4*

Here is your entry 2-5 (3-4)

The majors are right on the dot, can't lose anybody or they break. On the day of the two dogs show up, and all 5 bitches. Neither can get a major by going BOW, the dog can get 2 points by going BOW since it is 2 points in bitches, but that is not the case in this scenario. 

Your bitch goes WB today, and she just struts her stuff in the BOB right, which makes the judge take notice. She is nicer than the specials but the judge is hesitant to put you up. In the end it comes down to the last movement, and the judge just can't resist any more. He puts you up for BOB and BOW (if a class dog/bitch goes BOB they are automatically BOW). All 7 specials showed up, you beat all of them. Which means you get a major, because there were enough specials to elevate the points, and I believe enough to make it a 5 point major. Which by the end of this scenario, gives you your Champion, but we will keep going with one more. 

*Scenario 5* 

Here is the entry breakdown: 7-5 (1-3)

One dog does not show up, making it a 3 point major for them, all the bitches show up so it is 2 points. All the specials show up. 

Your bitch goes WB for the 2 points, a really nice dog goes WD. When going into BOB, you notice that none, of the bitch specials are as nice as your class bitch, so maybe you have a shot at BOS. The judge takes notice too. In the end, when he is making his placements, he puts up the dog special for breed, pulls the class dog for BOW. So now you are thinking you are not going to get anything, but he pulls you out for BOS, and the special bitch for Select. Sends you around and points out the winners. You have now gone BOS but not BOW, so you don't share in the dog points. But by beating the special bitches out for BOS, they add to your amount making it just enough for a 3 point major. So both the WD and WB get 3 point majors. 


I hope this helps, and if you have any more questions, feel free to ask. 

What you see in the results on Infodog, is input into computers at the show, after each breed is done. Tear sheets from the judges book are posted after they are inputted into the computer. So you can actually count up at the show. The superintendent does this, around this area it's MB-F, sometimes Rau up your way. I prefer MB-F, just because they are quicker about get results out.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I prefer MB-F, just because they are quicker about get results out.


Yeah, Rau drives me nuts. They take forever to post results. With MB-F I also like that I can stalk the show catalog from my iPhone early the morning of the show. Haha


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, Rau drives me nuts. They take forever to post results. With MB-F I also like that I can stalk the show catalog from my iPhone early the morning of the show. Haha


Yeah I love MB-F's system


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Yeah I love MB-F's system


I'm already stalking my competition for this Sat/Sun, since the other class dog is entered today. Not that it really helps me at all, but I'm nosy.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> Like, i was looking through winners for the week the other day, and saw my friends bitch who had gotten Winner's Bitch a few days at the show this past weekend. And it had how many points total she now has. Is that something that AKC enters? Or do owners update it?
> 
> http://www.infodog.com/my/dogpage.htm?akc=NP 31957701


The winners and bragging rights page on that site, is updated by MB-F


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I don't know if they keep track of total points earned though - maybe at a higher membership level than I have. For other steward companies, you might have to calculate on your own.


MB-F does not keep track of how many points you have totally, only AKC. MB-F just calculates how many points you have won on that particular day of the show. To see how many points you have totally, you need to have an AKC account.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> http://www.akc.org/events/conformation/point_schedule.cfm
> 
> The show catalogs you get at the show, have them in them to.
> 
> ...


This is amazing, thank you. It's still very overwhelming, I think I'm gonna have to re-read a few times LOL. I'm sure it's something that comes with time...and if I do show her and still don't quite understand how to calculate, what is the best way to find out as quickly as possible?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> This is amazing, thank you. It's still very overwhelming, I think I'm gonna have to re-read a few times LOL. I'm sure it's something that comes with time...and if I do show her and still don't quite understand how to calculate, what is the best way to find out as quickly as possible?


Basically, what you are doing is looking at how many dogs/bitches show up, what placement you get (WB/WD and up), and the schedule of where you are showing. If the WD gets more points than you, and you go BOW, you get the same amount the dog gets. BOB and BOS from the classes are a little more complicated.

These calculations only help you with how many points you get that day, not how many points you have totally, which is just something you need to keep track of or go through AKC to see.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

So winning a class (like 9-12 month bitches) doesn't get any points ever? Nor does going like...reserve winners bitch?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> So winning a class (like 9-12 month bitches) doesn't get any points ever? Nor does going like...reserve winners bitch?


No, winning your class gets you nothing, you have to go WB or WD (with a dog). Now you can get points by going RWB/RWD at a national specialty, but only if double what you need for a 5 point major shows up, in that instance you would get a 3 point major. And this is just for the national specialty not the regional/club shows during that week.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> No, winning your class gets you nothing, you have to go WB. Now you can get points by going RWB at a national specialty, but only if double what you need for a 5 point major shows up, in that instance you would get a 3 point major. And this is just for the national specialty not the regional/club shows during that week.


Aha, okay. So for example...let's say Lilly and I go Winner's Bitch at a Division 2 show....

For 1 Point in Division 2, it states there must be at least 2 dogs and 2 bitches. 

So, let's say she beats 2 other class bitches for winner's bitch, she would then get 1 point? 

And, let's say she beat 3 class dogs and 2 class bitches and got Best of Winners...would she still then only get 1 point? Because listed in this schedule of points, it says for 2 points, you need 4 dogs and 5 bitches.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

meggels said:


> So winning a class (like 9-12 month bitches) doesn't get any points ever? Nor does going like...reserve winners bitch?


Nope, winning a class doesn't get you points, only getting Winner's Dog or Winner's Bitch. In breeds with small entries, classes will often have only one or two dogs in them. Like I can enter for the 12-18 month old class, someone else enters their dog in Bred By Exhibitor, and someone else enters Open Dog. So 3 dogs total are there, for a possible 2 points (in Welshies), but they are all technically in different classes. When we show, I would go in by myself for my class, the judge would go over my dog, we get our blue ribbon (for first place in the class) then we leave. Then the Bred By Exhibitor dog would do the same, then the Open dog. Finally, we all come back in together to decide Winner's Dog. At that point, the judge has gone over everyone so he will probably look at them again, maybe have to go down and back, have everyone go around again, and then pick his Winner's Dog and Reserve.

Here are some links to the last who we went to, so you can see how MB-F reports things.

In this one, if you scroll down to Welsh Sprg it will show you that 9 dogs were entered, but only 8 showed. There was one possible point for Winner's Dog, and 2 for Winner's Bitch (because one of the bitches didn't show up and broke the major):
http://canis.infodog.com/files/pastpts.prg;MEVENTNO=2013039302

Now if you look at the results for that show:http://canis.infodog.com/RESULTS/brdrsl.htm?evno=2013039302&bno=18600
You can see that Watson got 1/W/BW which means he went first in his class (he was the only one entered in the 12-18MO class), Winners Dog, and Best of Winners, so he got two points (because there were two points in bitches that day). If he had just gone Winner's Dog, he would've only had the 1 point.


The second day, there was a 4 point major in dogs, but Watson went reserve (1/R) so he didn't get any points. The Winner's Bitch went BOW, so she got 4 points as well.
http://www.infodog.com/RESULTS/2013040001/201304000118600.HTM


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

meggels said:


> Aha, okay. So for example...let's say Lilly and I go Winner's Bitch at a Division 2 show....
> 
> For 1 Point in Division 2, it states there must be at least 2 dogs and 2 bitches.
> 
> ...


The number of dogs and bitches needed is separate, not cumulative. So don't add them together. If you need 5 bitches for two points, then that's how many she would need. The Winner's Dog would get 2 points if there were 4 dogs entered. Whoever goes BOW gets the maximum number of points available, whether it was for dogs or bitches. Check my example above with Watson and Miss Fluffy Pants for how that works.

If there were 3 class dogs and 2 class bitches and she went BOW, she would still only get 1 point because that's the max that either winner could earn.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> Aha, okay. So for example...let's say Lilly and I go Winner's Bitch at a Division 2 show....
> 
> For 1 Point in Division 2, it states there must be at least 2 dogs and 2 bitches.
> 
> So, let's say she beats 2 other class bitches for winner's bitch, she would then get 1 point?


Yes, because to get 2 points there would have needed to be 5 total bitches (not including specials) that showed up. 



> And, let's say she beat 3 class dogs and 2 class bitches and got Best of Winners...would she still then only get 1 point? Because listed in this schedule of points, it says for 2 points, you need 4 dogs and 5 bitches.


Yep 1 point, because even by going BOW over the boys, since the boys only has 1 point, there is no sharing, because both sexes have the same amount of points. You don't add all of them together. Now if there were 4 boys there, and she went BOW, then you would get 2 points, because it is two points in dogs.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Bulldog Club of America's National Specialty (plus two division shows) is coming up next week (starts Monday). It's in Chattanooga, TN. So we are using division 3 schedule. 

For 5 point majors you need, 25 dogs and 34 bitches. There are 143 bitches and 115 dogs entered. If we don't have major absences, both RWB and RWD will get 3 point majors. Just on Tuesday (the day the national classes are), not any other day.

Monday is Sweeps, and Obedience/Rally (yes we have a lot of entries)
Wednesday is Juniors and BOB competition
Thursday starts the first division show with juniors and class bitches and dogs
Friday is the first division shows BOB competition
Sat is the second division show, with everything (bitches, dogs, juniors, BOB)


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Yes, because to get 2 points there would have needed to be 5 total bitches (not including specials) that showed up.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep 1 point, because even by going BOW over the boys, since the boys only has 1 point, there is no sharing, because both sexes have the same amount of points. You don't add all of them together. Now if there were 4 boys there, and she went BOW, then you would get 2 points, because it is two points in dogs.


Okay, so for BOW...let's say that she beat 2 class bitches, which is 1 point, but also beat 4 class dogs, which would get 2 points...she would automatically get the 2 points for beating those 4 class dogs for BOW?

How do you figure points for Best of Opposites and Best of Select? In the lineup, it's usually BOB, BOW, BOO and BOS right? What is Best of Select? I know Best of Opposite is the opposite gender from whoever got BOW right?

Sorry for so many questions haha...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

meggels said:


> Okay, so for BOW...let's say that she beat 2 class bitches, which is 1 point, but also beat 4 class dogs, which would get 2 points...she would automatically get the 2 points for beating those 4 class dogs for BOW?


Correct. The points don't add or anything, so she would end up with a total of 2 points. The 2 points from the dogs would basically replace her 1 point win from bitches. 

I don't know enough about the other stuff. Typically specials are winning BOB or BOS, so I don't worry about calculating points for that. I figure if it happens, MB-F will add up the points for me and post it in the results. Haha. All I understand is that if you get BOB, you will get more points for each special you beat (still according to the point schedule) whether they are dogs or bitches. If you go BOS, you only get points for each special you beat that is your dog's gender. So if you're showing a bitch, you wouldn't get points for any special dogs, but you could get points based on the number of special bitches you beat, plus the class bitches you already beat. It gets confusing.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> Okay, so for BOW...let's say that she beat 2 class bitches, which is 1 point, but also beat 4 class dogs, which would get 2 points...she would automatically get the 2 points for beating those 4 class dogs for BOW?
> 
> How do you figure points for Best of Opposites and Best of Select? In the lineup, it's usually BOB, BOW, BOO and BOS right? What is Best of Select? I know Best of Opposite is the opposite gender from whoever got BOW right?
> 
> Sorry for so many questions haha...


Yes if there was 2 points in dogs, your bitch by going BOW would get 2 points nothing more. 

Class dogs/bitches can't get Select, that is just for champions, and that is tied to the new GCH title. 

In scenario 5 of the above post of mine, I touch on if a class bitch goes BOS. 

The line up for breed competition is BOB, BOW, BOS, Select Dog, Select Bitch. 

Selects are a new placement, by a champion going select they can get a certain amount of points toward their GCH depending on how many of their sex they beat. I touch on what you need to get a GCH in my first post on this thread. BOB and BOS can also get GCH points, usually they will get more points, sometimes everybody gets the same amount.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I wonder if people who are drawn to showing / titling / proving their dogs are generally more competitive than other people and that is the force behind much of the downside of showing rather than the showing itself.


I am actually not a very competitive person. Competition breeds contempt. I show simply because I love to. I rarely get angry when I lose.

With exaggerated breeds, they run the gamut. In group this past Saturday, there was a Bulldog that was constantly being sprayed down, fed ice chips, AND had a cooling blanket on. He wheezed all the way up to the front of the line, even though he spent almost the ENTIRE time holding still. It was sad. Conversely, there was a Chow Chow in group on Sunday (a breed prone to exaggeration) that was THE NICEST Chow Chow I have seen in YEARS. Beautifully structured, nice length of muzzle, he could BREATHE, he could MOVE, and his temperament was stellar! People will see him on TV Saturday and will think he has too much coat. Maybe...but the dog is a super super nice dog. Take it from the person who stood next to him for 40 minutes while he schmoozed me for bait!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

The next upcoming all breed show I have is Winston-Salem the first weekend of Dec. 

In my group we will have, 1 weimaraner, 1 Bulldog, 2 ESS, 1 ECS, 1 Papillon and 1 BC, all bitches. 

The breakdowns for each on Sat

BCs: 1-3 (3-4)
Bulldogs: 7-11 (2-2)
Paps: 6-9 (2-2)
ECS: 0-4 (2-1)
ESS: 3-2 (2-3)
Weims: 1-4 (1-2)

Going by the point schedules for each of these breeds

ECS: It will only be 1 point, as they need 5 bitches need to show up. Now at least one of those 4 will not be there as she just needs majors, and as long as at least one of the other 2 show up, the bitch we are bringing has a shot at a point. If the bitch goes BOS over the bitch special it will be two points, if she goes breed it will be 2 points. 

ESS: Both winners dog and winners bitch will get 1 point, either one of them would have to go breed to get a major. If either of them go BOS, they could get 2 points, but that is it. 

Weims: It is only 1 point in bitches, no points in dogs. For the dog to get a point he would have to either go BOW, or BOS over the dog special (which would mean the dog special would need to show up). He could go BOB and get 2 points, but it's not likely to happen. The bitch could go BOS for 2 points, BOB for 3 point major. 

Paps: It's 2 points in dogs, and a 3 point major in bitches. Now if bitches lose more than 2, the major breaks, and the things are even. But if it stands, and the dog goes BOW, he will get a major. He could also go BOS for 3 point major, BOB for 3 point major. 

Bulldogs: It is 1 point in dogs and 2 points in bitches. Dogs miss out on 2 points by 1 dog. As long as the bitches don't lose more than 3, the two points will stand. Dog goes BOW he will get 2 points. The dog could go BOS for 2 points (even if the dog doesn't go BOW), or BOB for 2 points. The bitch could go BOS for 2 points, and BOB for 3 point major. 

BCs: No points in dogs, and 1 point in bitches. Again the dog would have to go BOW to get that 1 point. He could go BOS for a 3 point major, or BOB for 5 point major. The bitch could go BOS for a 4 point major, and BOB for a 5 point major.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I know many reputable breeders have a strict spay/neuter contract and they make it seem like you need to already be in the sport in order to get a show quality puppy from them (for the record, I'm interested in Bulldogs, Boston Terriers and Rottweilers)


It really depends. Sometimes it is better to go to a breeder who has quality animals, but is not as well established. They haven't had the time (or have managed to avoid) to become jaded and cynical. My waiting list for Wesson is full, and I am giving someone a deal on a show puppy. I have several people interested in show animals (which isn't common at all), and will likely not have enough animals of that quality for everybody.

Only ONE of my show homes is experienced, and they will be getting the "second best" bitch (because the first best will be mine). The best male will be going to the person I've made a deal with, because they're only an hour away, and I will be able to help her a lot more and see how the dog is growing. Another show male is going down south to North Carolina, another to a pet home in Ohio. If you're a good home, I'll sell you a dog. If you're a newbie, I'll help you.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I am actually not a very competitive person. Competition breeds contempt. I show simply because I love to. I rarely get angry when I lose.


I'm not a very competitive person, but I do get annoyed when I lose. Haha. Not angry, but it's a lot of time and work to get to the show, just to lose in under 60 seconds, and that makes it disappointing. But that's how it goes sometimes. The time we lost the major I got to hang out with some new breeder friends and lots of Watson's extended Welshie family, so the day was worth it anyway.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> It really depends. Sometimes it is better to go to a breeder who has quality animals, but is not as well established. They haven't had the time (or have managed to avoid) to become jaded and cynical. My waiting list for Wesson is full, and I am giving someone a deal on a show puppy. I have several people interested in show animals (which isn't common at all), and will likely not have enough animals of that quality for everybody.
> 
> Only ONE of my show homes is experienced, and they will be getting the "second best" bitch (because the first best will be mine). The best male will be going to the person I've made a deal with, because they're only an hour away, and I will be able to help her a lot more and see how the dog is growing. Another show male is going down south to North Carolina, another to a pet home in Ohio. If you're a good home, I'll sell you a dog. If you're a newbie, I'll help you.


Yeah, exactly.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I'm not a very competitive person, but I do get annoyed when I lose.


Unless I lose to something REALLY bad (which has only happened a handful of times), I don't even get annoyed. I'm just neutral about it. I know that's kinda weird, but I've spent time with my dog, so I'm happy. Sometimes I might be a little disappointed, but it goes away pretty quickly.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

My competitiveness varies. With BB I am very competitive, as I am trying to keep her in the top 10. I am not as competitive with the spaniels as I am still learning, and right now I have a special that already has her grand and is just playing around till she will be bred, and a young bitch that has a few singles but needs more coat. And I am really laid back in bulldogs as that is just the atmosphere around the bully ring.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Unless I lose to something REALLY bad (which has only happened a handful of times), I don't even get annoyed. I'm just neutral about it. I know that's kinda weird, but I've spent time with my dog, so I'm happy. Sometimes I might be a little disappointed, but it goes away pretty quickly.


I'd rather spend time with my dog at home on the couch. lol I just don't enjoy showing enough to make the day enjoyable no matter what, but it's been better as I've gotten to know more people. It was really lonely and boring at the first few shows with just me and my husband wandering around. At least winning a couple points makes me feel like the drive and effort was worth it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I just don't enjoy showing enough to make the day enjoyable no matter what


And I can understand that  As I mentioned before, I can't even tell you what it is about this particular venue that I love so much. I just....do, you know?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> And I can understand that  As I mentioned before, I can't even tell you what it is about this particular venue that I love so much. I just....do, you know?


Definitely! It's awesome to have something that you're so passionate about. It's also great that you have been able to use your skills to help out newbies, like at Oaks.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Helping people is definitely one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I remember how poorly I was treated in the beginning, and do not want other people to feel that way, so I do my best to make others feel welcome, whether they have GSDs or not.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Helping people is definitely one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I remember how poorly I was treated in the beginning, and do not want other people to feel that way, so I do my best to make others feel welcome, whether they have GSDs or not.


I am the same way. I love helping people and I love learning new things.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

My first handling instructor, when I would come to class with Blitz (old male now deceased), would basically brush me off and just work with his "prodigy" students (those that were winning in juniors and what not), or he would send me off to the other instructor that night. Granted Blitz really didn't want to be there, I still remember the rope burns, but he was all we had at the time. Nobody in weimaraners really would lift a finger to help me, they would give me a few tips here or there, and Maxxi's breeder was supportive but would never really sit down with me and discuss things. It took us getting our frenchie to learn about a class being set up and the instructor was a bulldog breeder, she saw and still sees in me how good of a handler I am. We became good friends, and are partners in our breeding program. She still helps me, she knows that I may not know the answer right away but I dam well will figure it out. By the time I had found her I had already been interested in this sport for at least 4 years. 

Now everybody talks to me, and I have people that want me to show their dogs. I have gotten connections I never would have had the courage to get without her.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

In agility, even when I lose I'm really happy. It's not just about winning, because even if she doesn't Qualify she had fun, I had fun, and I can focus on all the good things she did. Even if she goes the wrong way or knocks a bar, usually at least 95% of her run is fantastic. It took me a long time to get to this point of being ok and then happy even if she doesn't Q. We had awesome initial success, and now she's been stuck at the same level for about 2 years. I had to take several months off trialing because I stopped enjoying it. I was so disappointed and frustrated I cried after a particular trial, and that's when I knew I had to stop trialing and focus on finding the fun again. I had to come to terms with running a husky and realizing I don't have a dog that does things simply to make me happy like a typical BC or gundog seems to. I have a breed that is not really known to do this sport at all, let alone do it as well as Denali does. I feel better now when she doesn't Q than I used to feel when she _did_ Q. Of course when I finally get our last Q at this level people will think I've gotten a MACH I'm going to be so ecstatic  But until then, I'm just glad she's having fun on the course. I don't need ribbons to tell me she's doing great.

I imagine the same must be true of showing? Even if you don't win, your dog gets the experience, you get the experience, you can focus on the awesome stack, the focused attention they gave you, letting the judge feel them, etc.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Engaging in a sport (as even the title says) that one does not enjoy is pointless. And saying that it's the responsible thing to do the same way health care is the responsible thing to do is saying that it matters more than any hobby/sport/game. Is it a sport or not?
> 
> 
> Sustain??? Confused.
> ...


DISTAIN ... Sorry; darn auto correct :/, I was wondering where your own personal distain for shows in general comes from.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Oh PLEASE let's not open that can of worms  Separate thread!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh I cried after my last agility trial. Mia went from rocking and Q'ing with a first to totally wigging out and being sensitive. And Summer was so busy barking herself into exhaustion that by the afternoon my little old dog had run out of steam.

To be fair though I also had wrecked my car that morning and my period had started. So... 

I'm stopping trialling Mia because we're both stressing. It doesn't help that I keep hearing people tell me that when she's on she ROCKS. Her temperament though.... she's so sensitive. Best dog I've ever had but a TON more challenging to train with compared to Summer. I just need to laugh because I'm only going to get to do this stuff with Mia once. And I need to stop worrying about if other people think she's as great as I do (probably not lol).


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Since there's been a detailed discussion of points, I have a question. Do more seemingly prestigious shows (e.g., breed nationals, Westminster, National) offer more points for winners? Not necessarily because more dogs are entered, but because of the venue and acclaim. 



Xeph said:


> I am actually not a very competitive person. Competition breeds contempt. I show simply because I love to. I rarely get angry when I lose.
> 
> With exaggerated breeds, they run the gamut. In group this past Saturday, there was a Bulldog that was constantly being sprayed down, fed ice chips, AND had a cooling blanket on. He wheezed all the way up to the front of the line, even though he spent almost the ENTIRE time holding still. It was sad. Conversely, there was a Chow Chow in group on Sunday (a breed prone to exaggeration) that was THE NICEST Chow Chow I have seen in YEARS. Beautifully structured, nice length of muzzle, he could BREATHE, he could MOVE, and his temperament was stellar! People will see him on TV Saturday and will think he has too much coat. Maybe...but the dog is a super super nice dog. Take it from the person who stood next to him for 40 minutes while he schmoozed me for bait!


Hmm, I guess I've read about people using hair dye, dog wigs, and other "tricks" to gain an edge over other dogs (I'm not talking about proper stacking or presenting your dog in the best light, but presenting your dog as something s/he's not). That makes me think that those people, at least, are more interested in winning than spending time with their dogs doing something they both enjoy. 

Can't wait to see the Chow. There's one up the street from us who lives with a herding dog (Aussie, border collie??). They both seem like lovely dogs, but the Chow is beautiful. 



Xeph said:


> It really depends. Sometimes it is better to go to a breeder who has quality animals, but is not as well established. They haven't had the time (or have managed to avoid) to become jaded and cynical. My waiting list for Wesson is full, and I am giving someone a deal on a show puppy. I have several people interested in show animals (which isn't common at all), and will likely not have enough animals of that quality for everybody.
> 
> Only ONE of my show homes is experienced, and they will be getting the "second best" bitch (because the first best will be mine). The best male will be going to the person I've made a deal with, because they're only an hour away, and I will be able to help her a lot more and see how the dog is growing. Another show male is going down south to North Carolina, another to a pet home in Ohio. *If you're a good home, I'll sell you a dog. If you're a newbie, I'll help you.*





Xeph said:


> Helping people is definitely one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I remember how poorly I was treated in the beginning, and do not want other people to feel that way, so I do my best to make others feel welcome, whether they have GSDs or not.





ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I am the same way. I love helping people and I love learning new things.


This is why both of you are such great people.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Helping people is definitely one of the reasons I love doing what I do. I remember how poorly I was treated in the beginning, and do not want other people to feel that way, so I do my best to make others feel welcome, whether they have GSDs or not.


Oh Bologna you moved several states away just so you wouldn't have to show Carsten in breed. ha ha

Just kidding, you have always been quite helpful and I am sure that is appreciated by many. Not all "show people" are so welcoming. It would be much more fun if they were.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Sorry for jumping in this thread so late...
Have a few questions shows how much I don't about conformation.


Since I am interested in competing in conformation,but it probably won't be for at least six years,because I'm still HS(graduate 2015),then I'll go to college.So I'll probably be at least 22 when I get a dog. Gives me a lot of time to learn about conformation, & other sports in the dog world. So, I guess it isn't a bad thing. I'd much rather be informed about the breed of dog I want,nutrition, & training, than not be.

For the conformation question... What should I do before I get started in conformation? How should I get more informed& Hopefully there wasn't a question similar to this already asked, apologizes if there was.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> What should I do before I get started in conformation?


Practice with your current dog!!! You know who I did most of my conformation learning on? Straussdog! Go ahead and try and find a handling class now (there are tons in WI!), and explain that you will not be getting a show dog for quite some time, but you want to learn with the animal you have. Starting with a "faulty" dog can teach you a lot more than starting with a great one!



> Hmm, I guess I've read about people using hair dye, dog wigs, and other "tricks" to gain an edge over other dogs (I'm not talking about proper stacking or presenting your dog in the best light, but presenting your dog as something s/he's not).


Those things exist. And we all have our "lines". The most I use on my dogs is hairspray, to spray up a croup or improve the look of feet if I have a dog with not so great feet. I do not dye my animals.

With Niraya's girl, though, she got completely wet down, I moussed her ruff (the hair on her neck), pants (butt fluff), and her topline (from her butt all the way up to her withers). I also put cholestrol on her legs and applied white chalk. White chalk on white areas helps hide staining, scars, etc. Those things shouldn't matter....but they do. And the time to correct anything that the dog is lacking (once out of the ring) is in breeding.

Even the way you blow dry a dog can alter the way the coat lies, and give you a completely different appearance.

Because Mechta's coat along her spine lays flat and needs to puff up (in part to try and get her to look more like the other sibes), I wet her down, back brushed the top line (brushed her coat against the grain), and moussed her by applying mousse back to front (rather than front to back, which would smash the hair down). Then I took a heat dryer to help set the mousse, and back brushed the top line. Once all the mousse had evaporated and set, I lightly took my pin brush and brushed the hair back down slightly, so she didn't have a mohawk on her back.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

cookieface said:


> Since there's been a detailed discussion of points, I have a question. Do more seemingly prestigious shows (e.g., breed nationals, Westminster, National) offer more points for winners? Not necessarily because more dogs are entered, but because of the venue and acclaim.


No, it always depends on how many dogs show up, and what point schedule you are using. Westminster was only for champions, I am really not sure how points now works that they allow certain class dogs enter (have to have one major already), I assume it is the same as any other show.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Here's "Forbes" the Chow Chow!


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

JazzyTheSiberian said:


> For the conformation question... What should I do before I get started in conformation? How should I get more informed& Hopefully there wasn't a question similar to this already asked, apologizes if there was.


Attending some local shows would be a good idea, if not now then at least 2-3 years before you want to get a puppy. Watch your breed judging, and maybe a few other breeds that you find interesting. Before your breed is to be judged, wander around the grooming areas and ask Sibe owners about their dogs. Some breeders will be very chatty and you can begin to develop a relationship. You would not want to do this right before ring time, I would say about an hour or so before ring time is good. Good luck!


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Practice with your current dog!!! You know who I did most of my conformation learning on? Straussdog! Go ahead and try and find a handling class now (there are tons in WI!), and explain that you will not be getting a show dog for quite some time, but you want to learn with the animal you have. Starting with a "faulty" dog can teach you a lot more than starting with a great one!


Unfortunately, I don't have a dog,Jazzy is a Siberian cat.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

With the spaniels, we use three things mainly: water, self rinse, and mousse, sometimes we will use a gel to really add body. The water is used on the colored parts, a little bit put on the towel to get eye boogies out. The self rinse is used on the white parts (i.e feet/legs, face, some fringe, chest, hocks). The mousse is used on the legs, chest fringe, hocks, butt fringe, and body fringe. The topline is never touched, and if something accidentally hits it, we work hard to make it lay where it needs to. All that is blow dried, as we are blow drying, we use a slicker on the small hair (hocks, legs), a pin brush and comb on the longer hair. The hair on the legs and hocks are brushed up, the hocks are also brushed out. The chest hair is brushed up and out, the body and butt fringe down. Ears are also wet with water, and are puffed up. We never use chalk, I know some people do, but we just don't. Not to say I have any problems with chalk, I don't heck I use it on the bulldogs.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Here's "Forbes" the Chow Chow!


I wouldn't say he has excessive coat, I have seen way more than that. I do like the short coated ones though.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Chaos, he had a LOT more hair when I saw him. This photo was December of last year, and I think this dog is relatively young His tail was (beautifully) ridiculous.

He's got nice open nostrils though, and though you can't see it from this angle, great length of muzzle. And can I just say how much I LOVE Chow Chow feet? Forbes is owner handled by his breeder. They came all the way to Pennsylvania from TEXAS for this show! And there were only three Chow Chows entered at all (and only two showed).

ETA: Photo from this year









This dog is a sweet mush!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JazzyTheSiberian said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have a dog,Jazzy is a Siberian cat.


Yeah I agree to going to shows, and talking to people. You could also just find a conformation class, and call the instructor to see if they will allow you to sit in and watch, they may even allow you to work one of their dogs.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

What breed(s) are you interested in, Jazzy?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Chaos, he had a LOT more hair when I saw him. This photo was December of last year, and I think this dog is relatively young His tail was (beautifully) ridiculous.
> 
> He's got nice open nostrils though, and though you can't see it from this angle, great length of muzzle. And can I just say how much I LOVE Chow Chow feet? Forbes is owner handled by his breeder. They came all the way to Pennsylvania from TEXAS for this show! And there were only three Chow Chows entered at all (and only two showed).
> 
> ...


Yeah I have still seen some with more coat than that. He is very pretty, have you seen his puppy pictures, just plain aww.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JazzyTheSiberian said:


> For the conformation question... What should I do before I get started in conformation? How should I get more informed& Hopefully there wasn't a question similar to this already asked, apologizes if there was.


The more you put yourself out there now, will definitely help you later. Even if it will be years before you ever step foot in the ring, just dipping your feet in now will go a long way with helping you later.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Based on this picture, I'm going to guess that the dog up the street is a mix. His face is more...open? than Forbes'. I just know I'd kill for his hair color. 



Xeph said:


> Here's "Forbes" the Chow Chow!


Xeph, I'm going to fess up here. I really wanted to go to Oaks to meet you and Finkie_mom, but I was terrified. I'm not a very social person and the thought of going to the show alone and meeting both of you made me hyperventilate.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Xeph, I'm going to fess up here. I really wanted to go to Oaks to meet you and Finkie_mom, but I was terrified. I'm not a very social person and the thought of going to the show alone and meeting both of you made me hyperventilate.


And that's ok. I understand anxiety that bad. Mine still isn't great. I finally bit the bullet about a year and a half ago and started medication. I definitely function better now. In addition to that, you will find that I am much more outgoing at a dog show than I would be if we met at, say, a social gathering at somebody's home. I'm very "open" at a dog show, but very closed off in other scenarios.

I think I have an easier time at shows because people approach *me*. I do not have to approach *them*. It makes a difference.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Chaos, he had a LOT more hair when I saw him. This photo was December of last year, and I think this dog is relatively young His tail was (beautifully) ridiculous.
> 
> He's got nice open nostrils though, and though you can't see it from this angle, great length of muzzle. And can I just say how much I LOVE Chow Chow feet? Forbes is owner handled by his breeder. They came all the way to Pennsylvania from TEXAS for this show! And there were only three Chow Chows entered at all (and only two showed).
> 
> ...


What a gorgeous chow!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> And that's ok. I understand anxiety that bad. Mine still isn't great. I finally bit the bullet about a year and a half ago and started medication. I definitely function better now. In addition to that, you will find that I am much more outgoing at a dog show than I would be if we met at, say, a social gathering at somebody's home. I'm very "open" at a dog show, but very closed off in other scenarios.
> 
> I think I have an easier time at shows because people approach *me*. I do not have to approach *them*. It makes a difference.


And I am exactly the same way, except if that social gathering is full of people I already know very well, but even then I am more social at shows then those. It's not so much that I get anxiety about meeting people, it's more that I am on the shyer side. I am not a very outgoing person either.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I just love his name. Forbes. It just makes me giggle, I don't know why.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I just love his name. Forbes. It just makes me giggle, I don't know why.


lol yeah it is a cool name.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> A breeder in the show world will more likely keep the best pup for themselves to keep. .


Not necessarily. Merlin was the best puppy in his litter. And one of the best puppies she has ever produced. She has been breeding, 30 years and I promise you he is on her top ten of bests. 

He is the most successful show dog to come out of her kennel. And that includes some dogs that went out and campaigned with professional handlers. 
And the reality he was an under achiever in his career. I was a green green novice when I started showing him. I had never stepped foot in a show ring. Heck other than tv I had only been to a couple of conformation shows in my life. I was a bit of a quick study. I had competed in other venues with dogs, done a lot of training on a professional level, and am HIGHLY competitive. 
WE won at first because he is that good. We won at higher levels because he is that good and I learned how to present him well. 

Merlin's breeder made a comment before she committed to me having him that led me to believe she was not going to let him go... As we were looking at puppies. Had him up on the table... She said.. Mostly to herself... "yessir, this is the dog I have been looking for all my life." 

But she did sell him to me. She retained rights to bred to him any time she chooses. 

It worked out. She knew I would keep my word and how competitive I am. Plus she has a good number of dogs. Merlin has a ton of drive, bold, pushy, cocky and sometime a jerk. He needed the right person that would focus on him.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph, what do you think about the proposal to allow certain clubs, whose entries are really low, to hold two shows in a day?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Xeph, what do you think about the proposal to allow certain clubs, whose entries are really low, to hold two shows in a day?


UKC does that and it has a flea market feel to me.. 


That being said, I was at a show in September that on Friday when some Specialties were going on the Dal Club held a daytime and then an evening specialty. 
They have done that two years in a row.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And Chaos did a GREAT job of explaining how points work..

You can get more points if you take breed over specials if the number of specials added to the class dogs bumps the number of points that would be available in class.

Merlin had a one point WD bump to a two pointer by taking Best of Breed over two special dogs.

Now Chaos needs to Explain how Grand Championships are earned...


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Now Chaos needs to Explain how Grand Championships are earned...


Oh gawd, thats probably a whole nother hour of typing lol. I touched on what is needed to get the GCH, but explaining how to calculate it confuses even me.

There is this obviously, but AKC is really good at writing very confusing explanations

http://classic.akc.org/events/conformation/counting_grand_championship_points.cfm

If I remember tomorrow, before I have to get ready for my trip to nationals, I'll give it a whirl.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Oh gawd, thats probably a whole nother hour of typing lol. I touched on what is needed to get the GCH, but explaining how to calculate it confuses even me.
> 
> There is this obviously, but AKC is really good at writing very confusing explanations
> 
> ...



LOL was teasing...

Let folks wrap their heads around earning a championship first..

They Get a champion they can hire a CPA to figure out how to get a Grand...

LOL


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I can give a break down... Very basic.

25 grand championship points.
3 majors
3 wins over other finished champions
Much be earned under three different judges. 

I believe as of this writing Merlin has 125 grand championship points. 

So he has his Grand Championship and his Bronze Achievement level.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> LOL was teasing...
> 
> Let folks wrap their heads around earning a championship first..
> 
> ...


LOL yeah, it's not so much that the calculations are any much different at least for BOB and BOS, getting into selects is a little tricky. You are still using your point schedule for whatever region. But I just find explaining the GCH points harder than the CH points.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I can give a break down... Very basic.
> 
> 25 grand championship points.
> 3 majors
> ...


Yeah I wrote that earlier, BB according to AKC (we all know how often they update) has 126 GCH points, also making her a bronze, I wear her medallion at almost every show now.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

For those that are reading this and wondering. There are levels of GCHs. 

The first level is obviously GCH and takes 25 points and the above mentioned conditions. This is the only level that requires other conditions 

The next is bronze, and you need 100 points
The next is Silver, and you need 200 points
Next is Gold and you need 400 points
And lastly there is platinum and you need 800 points. 

Now most of your heavy hitters (top dogs in each breed) are platinums.

In my two breeds, there is one platinum in bulldogs (as of nov 10), but he's not in the country anymore. 

In weims there are 4, 3 dogs and 1 bitch, I believe at least two of them are retired.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> For those that are reading this and wondering. There are levels of GCHs.
> 
> The first level is obviously GCH and takes 25 points and the above mentioned conditions. This is the only level that requires other conditions
> 
> ...



And to give folks an idea... The MOST GCH points you can get in a show is 5. So it takes a Minimum of 160 wins as a champion to earn a platinum.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And to give folks an idea... The MOST GCH points you can get in a show is 5. So it takes a Minimum of 160 wins as a champion to earn a platinum.


It's the same with CH points, you can't get any more than 5 on any given show day. Now you can earn more points during that circuit because each day starts a new. Theoretically, a dog could earn his CH in a three show weekend, if there is enough for 5 point majors. Doesn't often happen, but it can.

I do know of a recent 6 month old bulldog, that after one weekend of showing, he only need a single point to finish. I've personally never been that lucky, lol.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> It's the same with CH points, you can't get any more than 5 on any given show day. Now you can earn more points during that circuit because each day starts a new. Theoretically, a dog could earn his CH in a three show weekend, if there is enough for 5 point majors. Doesn't often happen, but it can.


Merlin's sire had one point... Went to a show Fri, Sat and Sun.... Walked away a Ch. 

He did a few shows as a young pup. Got a point. Did not do much. Cynthia got a hold of him, let him grow up and took him out when he was ready. 

I have to say, she is about as efficient a breeder handler as I have seen. She is not big on taking puppies out. She works them at her place. Takes them to a show and walks them around. Lets the grow up and takes them out when she feels they are ready.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Merlin's sire had one point... Went to a show Fri, Sat and Sun.... Walked away a Ch.
> 
> He did a few shows as a young pup. Got a point. Did not do much. Cynthia got a hold of him, let him grow up and took him out when he was ready.
> 
> I have to say, she is about as efficient a breeder handler as I have seen. She is not big on taking puppies out. She works them at her place. Takes them to a show and walks them around. Lets the grow up and takes them out when she feels they are ready.


Yeah I do the same sometimes. But with the spaniels, we have hauled their butts since they were babies, even if they were not entered (oops lol). It was fun seeing them in their baby towels lol.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Xeph, what do you think about the proposal to allow certain clubs, whose entries are really low, to hold two shows in a day?


I'm for it. Less traveling, more bang for your buck. It could also make a huge difference to people that have day jobs and do not do this for a living.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Oh, a question I got last night: 

If you enter for a show but at the show it turns out some people don't show up and while you came for a major, that's not possible anymore. Because your dog has already done great and doesn't need singles, you decide to let the other dogs who don't have that many points yet have a got at it. So you pull your dog. 

What about the money you spent on entering the dog? Do you get it back because you pulled? Or are you out of that money?


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Thank you so much for the help and insight to my questions Chaos and Elrohwen (sp?).

I am lucky that I have met some really great people in frenchies, from what I understand, not all of them are so nice. The one negative though is that we are all spread out...I'm in CT and my close friend who got me started is down in PA and then LillyBell and her owner are up in Vermont. I'm so excited that her owner is giving me the opportunity to show her though. 

I know my friend in PA would place a show quality puppy with me, she has offered me one several times, just wish I was in the position to have a third dog full time...

This past weekend, my friends bull mastiff got his CH at his 5th show, that's pretty good right? He's such a handsome dog...


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Xeph said:


> And that's ok. I understand anxiety that bad. Mine still isn't great. I finally bit the bullet about a year and a half ago and started medication. I definitely function better now. In addition to that, you will find that I am much more outgoing at a dog show than I would be if we met at, say, a social gathering at somebody's home. I'm very "open" at a dog show, but very closed off in other scenarios.
> 
> I think I have an easier time at shows because people approach *me*. I do not have to approach *them*. It makes a difference.





ChaosIsAWeim said:


> And I am exactly the same way, except if that social gathering is full of people I already know very well, but even then I am more social at shows then those. It's not so much that I get anxiety about meeting people, it's more that I am on the shyer side. I am not a very outgoing person either.


Thanks. Yeah, I'm fine with people approaching me with questions, having something specific to talk about (like when I facilitate seminars), or with people I know well, but if I have to initiate contact or make small talk with people YIKES!



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> For those that are reading this and wondering. There are levels of GCHs.
> 
> The first level is obviously GCH and takes 25 points and the above mentioned conditions. This is the only level that requires other conditions
> 
> ...


I was going to ask if there is a list of AKC grand champions and levels for specific breeds, but I found this:
Grand Championship Points Ranking (by breed and state)
Grand Championship Achievement Levels (can sort by breed)


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Avie said:


> Oh, a question I got last night:
> 
> If you enter for a show but at the show it turns out some people don't show up and while you came for a major, that's not possible anymore. Because your dog has already done great and doesn't need singles, you decide to let the other dogs who don't have that many points yet have a got at it. So you pull your dog.
> 
> What about the money you spent on entering the dog? Do you get it back because you pulled? Or are you out of that money?


Nope, they only way to get your money back is if you pulled because there was a judge change.

In obedience/rally, I think that at the discretion of the club, you can get a refund for a bitch coming in heat, but that may just be the cold talking lol.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

meggels said:


> This past weekend, my friends bull mastiff got his CH at his 5th show, that's pretty good right? He's such a handsome dog...


Yep that is awesome. BB finished her CH is 7 weekends. Her GCH is like 4 or 5 weekends. Getting a GCH is easier than getting a CH.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Here is the proposal for having two shows in one day

http://www.infodog.com/misc/dssa/multishw.htm


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Nope, they only way to get your money back is if you pulled because there was a judge change.
> 
> In obedience/rally, I think that at the discretion of the club, you can get a refund for a bitch coming in heat, but that may just be the cold talking lol.


So attending a show can be a real gamble then. Does it happen often that a dog gets pulled?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Avie said:


> So attending a show can be a real gamble then. Does it happen often that a dog gets pulled?


Actually yeah, there will probably be a few no-shows or pullers at almost every show, per breed. Not always, but it happens. Sometimes there will be no absences in some breeds, but in others. At the show in Salisbury, MD a few weekends ago, the entire entry of weims, except one pulled because of a judge change. Luckily the one that didn't pull was a special. 

At the show I was at this past weekend, on Saturday, in just sporting dogs alone there were 21 absentees. 26 different sporting breeds were entered.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I also want to note one thing about calculating points that I just remembered. If for whatever reason a dog is excused from the ring, it is basically counted as an absence and you can't factor in that dog for the total amount of dogs there. 

And for those that frequent Infodog, and wondered, an excused dog is marked by JUDG.

A dog can be excused for a variety of reasons. 

Temperament
Lameness

are the main two.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> It's the same with CH points, you can't get any more than 5 on any given show day. Now you can earn more points during that circuit because each day starts a new. Theoretically, a dog could earn his CH in a three show weekend, if there is enough for 5 point majors. Doesn't often happen, but it can.


Watson's cousin did this last year. He earned his Ch at 14 months old in one weekend, with three 5 point majors at a supported entry. His littermate earned 14 points and both majors in the puppy classes. Never met the first dog, but we see the second at shows all the time and he is adorable. For being 4 months older, he is much more physically mature than Watson with a lot more coat.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Watson's cousin did this last year. He earned his Ch at 14 months old in one weekend, with three 5 point majors at a supported entry. His littermate earned 14 points and both majors in the puppy classes. Never met the first dog, but we see the second at shows all the time and he is adorable. For being 4 months older, he is much more physically mature than Watson with a lot more coat.


It happens more often in some breeds than in others.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> And for those that frequent Infodog, and wondered, an excused dog is marked by JUDG.


I saw that the other day in the results and wondered what it meant, but I forgot to look it up.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> It happens more often in some breeds than in others.


I don't think it's common in Welshies, though finishing under 18 months in general isn't rare. But a 5 point major only requires 6 or so dogs, so definitely not as hard as the popular breeds.


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

Perhaps not the best question, but I'm asking anyway. Why is it ok to pull for a judge change?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I also want to note one thing about calculating points that I just remembered. If for whatever reason a dog is excused from the ring, it is basically counted as an absence and you can't factor in that dog for the total amount of dogs there.
> 
> And for those that frequent Infodog, and wondered, an excused dog is marked by JUDG.
> 
> ...


How often are dogs pulled? Are the owners surprised (if you know)? It seems that if there were a chance my dog would be pulled, I wouldn't bother to enter.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> I don't think it's common in Welshies, though finishing under 18 months in general isn't rare. But a 5 point major only requires 6 or so dogs, so definitely not as hard as the popular breeds.


Well if AKC did what the KC does, it would never happen. The KC awards CCs which are comparable to majors I suppose. A dog has to get 3 of them under 3 different judges, and at least one of those needs to be earned after the dog is over a year old.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

cookieface said:


> How often are dogs pulled? Are the owners surprised (if you know)? It seems that if there were a chance my dog would be pulled, I wouldn't bother to enter.


You mean excused by the judge, or pulled by the owner/handler/etc? 

Dogs are pulled by their handler way more often than being excused by the judge.

I think being excused by the judge is oftentimes a surprise to the handler. Lameness can be caused by anything, a dog could have stepped on something and now it's foot is sore. Or like in our case, we had no idea, and she really didn't look it, and nobody outside the ring could see it, but the judge did. She wasn't really lame persay but rather not driving as much as she should be, which made it look like she had a hitch. Excusing a dog for lameness is for the best interest of the dog. Which is why it doesn't have the same stipulations as a dog being excused for bad temperament (i.e snaps at judge).


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

3doglady said:


> Perhaps not the best question, but I'm asking anyway. Why is it ok to pull for a judge change?


Not an expert, but based on the things that have been said in this topic: it's probably because when entering a dog for a show, you look at who will be judging and whether that's a judge that will like the kind of dog you'll bring before him. Then the judge is changed and the new judge dislikes the kind of dog you're showing, almost a guarantee you won't get any points and so you'd be throwing away your money. If you'd known this new judge would be judging, you'd never have entered in the first place. 

I think this is why. (correct me if I'm wrong)


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

3doglady said:


> Perhaps not the best question, but I'm asking anyway. Why is it ok to pull for a judge change?


Variety of reasons. You paid your money to show under that judge and for whatever reason another judge had to take his/her assignment. Well you know that new judge doesn't like your dog, so why show your dog to him/her. You wouldn't be getting a fair shot.

Also if a major is on the line, and the new judge is one that has already given you your first major, you would just be stealing a major (which in the end is just going to break into single points)

Conflicts of interest can arise with judge changes as well, although it's not as common. 

Even if the new judge has never seen your dog, you could know what he/she likes and your dog is not it, so again you probably won't get a fair shot.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> You mean excused by the judge, or pulled by the owner/handler/etc?
> 
> Dogs are pulled by their handler way more often than being excused by the judge.
> 
> I think being excused by the judge is oftentimes a surprise to the handler. Lameness can be caused by anything, a dog could have stepped on something and now it's foot is sore. Or like in our case, we had no idea, and she really didn't look it, and nobody outside the ring could see it, but the judge did. She wasn't really lame persay but rather not driving as much as she should be, which made it look like she had a hitch. Excusing a dog for lameness is for the best interest of the dog. Which is why it doesn't have the same stipulations as a dog being excused for bad temperament (i.e snaps at judge).


Hmm, not sure why extra text appeared when I quoted you. 

Sorry for not being clear. I meant excused by the judge (not pulled by the owner). But, now that I've read your additional comments, how did the judge know your dog was lame rather than having poor movement? Is that something that comes with experience?

What happens when a dog is excused for poor temperament?


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

cookieface said:


> Hmm, not sure why extra text appeared when I quoted you.
> 
> Sorry for not being clear. I meant excused by the judge (not pulled by the owner). But, now that I've read your additional comments, how did the judge know your dog was lame rather than having poor movement? Is that something that comes with experience?
> 
> What happens when a dog is excused for poor temperament?


That's probably because I edited when you were quoting me. 

Most judges and handlers can tell when a dog is lame, you can actually feel it in the leash if you are really good. It does come with experience, but the judge we had has been around a long time. The dog we showed doesn't have bad movement, she actually has more reach and drive than some bitches that beat her (she doesn't have the best attitude), something just wasn't right that day, she wasn't excused the next day. 

A dog that snaps at the judge, other people, other dogs, and even makes contact, gets three strikes, when those three strikes are up, the dog is DQ'd from competition, and has to petition and pass a bunch of tests to get back in. 

Now I have to go back and read, but I do think if a dog makes contact with a judge, I think that is an automatic DQ and the three strikes rule doesn't apply, but I may be wrong.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> > Love this thread. Many thanks to those people sharing their knowledge. I've long been fascinated by the sport (and sub-culture, I'd say) of canine conformation. It's something I intend to pursue with my next dog.
> >
> > A question, if I may. Say I acquired an 8-week-old pup tomorrow with the intent to eventually show. How would you recommend I go about priming this puppy for the show ring? What behaviors should I focus on training?
> 
> ...


Thanks! 

Yes, UKC. What you say supports what I hear about the venue, which heartens me. Even more laid back conformation is daunting for a newbie. Heh. I plan to look for a breeder who'd be willing to coach me a little. 

I'm actually putting off pursuing a second dog because I'd really like to do conformation, and I'm sure I won't have time for it during my graduate program.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

It is the same with a dog being whicketed. A whicket is a measuring tool, measures height. Some breeds have a height DQ, whether too small or big or both. Only the judge or another exhibitor that is in the ring can call for it, the other exhibitor has to do it before anybody has been examined. 

If a dog is found to be over or under the standard height, the dog is DQ, and if the dog is DQ'd three times the dog is DQ'd from competition, and I don't think you can get back in. 

Now some breeds have a height class, where the dog needs to be a certain height to be in that class, if a dog is DQ'd three times from that class, the dog can be shown in another class appropriate for their height. But really if you are DQ'd once, I don't see you re entering that class, unless you are just plain stupid. 

Same exact thing with weight, but you use scales.

I have had the whicket called on me once. And granted, he was a big dog, probably top of standard. But he measured in. Made the handler that called it on me, so mad. He was just a sore loser, cause I beat him the day before. I was so pissed though, because it freaked my dog out and he didn't perform as well as he could afterwards. I had never had a whicket called on me, so I had no idea how to keep him calm and get his focus back. He believed my dog was over, and yes I can see where he would think that, but if he knew the standard he would have known my dog wasn't over..


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> It is the same with a dog being whicketed. A whicket is a measuring tool, measures height. Some breeds have a height DQ, whether too small or big or both. Only the judge or another exhibitor that is in the ring can call for it, the other exhibitor has to do it before anybody has been examined.
> 
> If a dog is found to be over or under the standard height, the dog is DQ, and if the dog is DQ'd three times the dog is DQ'd from competition, and I don't think you can get back in.
> 
> ...


That's interesting. I've seen dogs whicketed at agility trials. 

What breeds have height-based classes? Or is that the same thing as different varieties like in poodles? Although, from what I've seen, poodles are registered as a specific variety at birth and if they go over height, too bad. I've not heard of anyone changing their dog's registration / variety because s/he has gotten too tall (although I wouldn't say it could never happen).

Am I asking too many questions?


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> It is the same with a dog being whicketed. A whicket is a measuring tool, measures height. Some breeds have a height DQ, whether too small or big or both. Only the judge or another exhibitor that is in the ring can call for it, the other exhibitor has to do it before anybody has been examined.
> 
> If a dog is found to be over or under the standard height, the dog is DQ, and if the dog is DQ'd three times the dog is DQ'd from competition, and I don't think you can get back in.
> 
> ...


Does temperament disqualification work the same way? Three strikes and you're out?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Avie said:


> Does temperament disqualification work the same way? Three strikes and you're out?


Chaos answered that - 



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> That's probably because I edited when you were quoting me.
> 
> Most judges and handlers can tell when a dog is lame, you can actually feel it in the leash if you are really good. It does come with experience, but the judge we had has been around a long time. The dog we showed doesn't have bad movement, she actually has more reach and drive than some bitches that beat her (she doesn't have the best attitude), something just wasn't right that day, she wasn't excused the next day.
> 
> ...


I think there are lots of people posting at the same time and missing replies


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

cookieface said:


> That's interesting. I've seen dogs whicketed at agility trials.
> 
> What breeds have height-based classes? Or is that the same thing as different varieties like in poodles? Although, from what I've seen, poodles are registered as a specific variety at birth and if they go over height, too bad. I've not heard of anyone changing their dog's registration / variety because s/he has gotten too tall (although I wouldn't say it could never happen).
> 
> Am I asking too many questions?


I have not really paid attention enough, to know all the breeds that have them. But I want to say beagles divide the open class by height, but not sure on that. I do know for sure that Boston Terrier divides the open class by weight. I think there are more weight divided class than height. 

I don't know enough about poodles to really comment.

And no, keep them coming.

Just look, it's not beagles, will have to keep looking.

Dachshunds do, open is divided by mini and standard.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> Chaos answered that -
> 
> I think there are lots of people posting at the same time and missing replies


Thanks! You're right, I missed it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

As an added aside, ONLY breeds with height/weight DQs may be wicketed or have a scale called for. Breeds that have faults but not DQs for over or under size/weight cannot be wicketed or weighed.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Xeph said:


> What breed(s) are you interested in, Jazzy?


Sorry for replying so late.

There are many breeds I am interested in:

~ Belgian Tervuren
~ Shetland Sheepdog
~ American Eskimo
~ Siberian Husky
~ GSD
~ Doberman

The main breeds I am look into/interested in owning are listed above. There's a few other breeds I'm looking into, but wouldn't necessarily want to participate in Conformation with that particular breed.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

JazzyTheSiberian said:


> Sorry for replying so late.
> 
> There are many breeds I am interested in:
> 
> ...


IMO the grooming for a Terv is easier/less time intensive than a Sheltie. Around here, you can finish a good Terv owner-handled without much difficulty. I believe shelties are more political, but dont' quote me on that.

Dobes are on your list - they're one of the most competitive breeds to show, and owner-handling them is definitely not for the faint of heart or thin-skinned owner!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JazzyTheSiberian said:


> Sorry for replying so late.
> 
> There are many breeds I am interested in:
> 
> ...


Tervs do seem to be of a more owner/breeder handled breed compared to Dobermans, Shelties, and GSDs, and even siberians. You will probably have trouble finding points in Eskies, at least in my area there is rarely any. There is a ton of grooming that goes into shelties, probably more than there should be, seems like every time you look somebody is teasing a sheltie's mane.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

GSDs, Shelties, and Dobes are very hard to get into. As always, if you want info/help/guidance with GSDs, I am happy to give it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Judge Trotter excused Merlin for sitting down....


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Judge Trotter excused Merlin for sitting down....


Which Trotter?


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

If you read my post it said breeders were more likely to keep the best pup for themselves. What one considers the best pup can be different from one person to the next. Also, how the pup turns out. When you have toy breeds the biggest problem is worrying about going oversize. These are the worries that my friend who shows Chihuahuas , another breeder/handler of Miniature Pinscher and even my boss who raises Yorkshire Terriers. 
I will say that two of my Chihuahuas have come from her. One was a puppy and did not meet her criteria for show quality. The latest one was too long in body and hated the shows. I acquired him was he was 9 months old. 

Then in two pages Xeph said she was going to keep the best bitch for herself when she breeds. This is typical for a person who shows/breeds is aiming for. A dog to compete in the shows with. I will add that I hope the one she does decide to keep does very well in the ring.

Now are all the pups in the litter going to be show worthy? My answer would be no. Not that they will not be great looking dogs but all qualifying for a show? It would be ideal but realistically no.

JB- even you said that you got lucky in that the breeder allowed you to buy Merlin. I do believe Watson's owner was right that it would be easier to acquire a better male than a female.

Now some of the RV's is astonishing and the organizational skills I have seen in them are amazing. 

Showing is not as easy as it seems to be on the outside of the ropes, it is a complex sport. 

I was trying to pass on the information that yes it is nice to buy from a good breeder but to inform the buyer that to expect to go buy the best puppy out of the litter is not the norm.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> If you read my post it said breeders were more likely to keep the best pup for themselves.
> JB- even you said that you got lucky in that the breeder allowed you to buy Merlin. I do believe Watson's owner was right that it would be easier to acquire a better male than a female.


I read your post.... 

And yea..... I got lucky.... I had no track record of showing in conformation. No proof that I could successfully campaign a dog in Conformation. No stable of champions. etc. That is where I got lucky. 

But the fact is people get breeder's pick puppies ALL the time. It is actually quite common. Breeders cannot feed them all. Cannot handle or pay handler fees on them all. They need owners. Both owner handlers and owners willing to provide the services of a professional handler. 

IF you took the current top 25 dogs in the country or even the top ten in each breed you would VERY likely be surprised at how few are breeder own. Or at least have the breeder as the sole owner. 


A breeder does not need to keep a puppy to hang on to the genetics. Very few show dogs are sold without breeding contracts involved.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Which Trotter?


Charles Trotter


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Very few show dogs are sold without breeding contracts involved.


Which I personally hate and refuse to involve myself in anymore.

I may ask to be allowed to collect a male before he's neutered if he's really nice, but I won't be asking for litters back and what not (unless I am paying expenses). I feel it is unfair, and to a point, taking advantage of the owner. Once I sell the dog, it's not mine anymore.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Then in two pages Xeph said she was going to keep the best bitch for herself when she breeds. This is typical for a person who shows/breeds is aiming for. A dog to compete in the shows with. I will add that I hope the one she does decide to keep does very well in the ring.


Keep in mind that the one that is "the best" at 8 weeks may not be the best at 2 years.

It is true that breeders cannot keep everything. I will not be breeding terribly often because I will be breeding primarily for myself. If I cannot keep something from a litter, there's no point in me breeding. I'm not breeding for the public or for money.

If circumstances changed when I bred a litter and I needed to sell everything, I MIGHT co own the nicest bitch with the option of a litter back, but I would pay all the fees for the care and whelping of the bitch. That really isn't the norm. Many breeders ask for a litter back and expect for the buyer to pay for all the breeding expenses (which is NOT FAIR at all).


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Judge Trotter excused Merlin for sitting down....


Mr. Trotter refused to give my dog a major because he didn't like that I turned her perpendicular to him for the freestack at the end of the down and back when we were in for Winners. If I hadn't done that, the major would have been mine. And yes, he told me that.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Both of those things are horrible reasons to deny a dog the major and have nothing to do with structure x.x I've heard more and more complaints about Mr. Trotter in the last couple years, which is just too bad.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Which I personally hate and refuse to involve myself in anymore.
> 
> I may ask to be allowed to collect a male before he's neutered if he's really nice, but I won't be asking for litters back and what not (unless I am paying expenses). I feel it is unfair, and to a point, taking advantage of the owner. Once I sell the dog, it's not mine anymore.


You may not own the dog anymore but the genetics remain part of the line. And as long as the owner agrees to the contract it is not taking advantage or unfair. Rather it can be mutually beneficial for everyone. The breeder gets to use their genetics. The owner gets to use them as well to either build or add to their line. 

Breeders spend their blood, sweat, tears, cash and sanity building their lines and working towards their goals. In my opinion it would be foolish just to allow their genetics to just float around out there and allow people to do whatever they want to with it.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> In my opinion it would be foolish just to allow their genetics to just float around out there and allow people to do whatever they want to with it.


In my opinion, if breeders want those genetics, they either need to keep some for themselves, or be prepared to pay for the litters they want with THEIR money instead of presenting the idea of "co ownership" to a n00b, and then making said n00b pay for all the litter costs when they only get to keep half (or none) of the litter.

I am not down with that, have experienced it personally, and won't do it to somebody else. That's not a "deal". That's taking advantage of somebody who just wants to get in conformation and feels they must sign a piece of obligatory clap trap in order to fulfill their dream.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I know a lot of breeders breed for themselves, because they want another dog themselves. They don't breed for the public.

But isn't this counter intuitive? We want the general public to buy their purebred dogs from reputable breeders, but reputable breeders only breed for themselves. So where is the general public supposed to get their dogs from? Even if there are 9 pups in a litter and 8 of these go to the general public, this isn't going to meet the demand for dogs in society. And also, this means people will often wait 12-18 months for a puppy, which is the reason many of them go to the classifieds and get non-health tested dogs.

To me it seems like it would make more sense for reputable breeders to breed for the general public as well as for themselves.

If breeders only breed for themselves, but they want the general public to buy from reputable breeders, how is that supposed to work exactly?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I co-own Wesson btw. You know why it works? Because her breeder wants no litters back and isn't on my back about getting her shown. I'm not required to offer her anything from any litter I breed, but I will, because I feel that's the right thing to do. I pay for all her litter expenses for my litters. If she wants a litter (which is unlikely because she hates to breed), she pays for all the expenses involved with the litter.



> To me it seems like it would make more sense for reputable breeders to breed for the general public as well as for themselves.


It might, but I don't have the ability to breed (nor do I want to breed) just for pets. I want animals that can further my breeding program. I only have so much room, and most pet homes are not going to become magic show and performance homes that I need to prove dogs for breedworthiness, nor are they going to want to give me their pet (if it is a bitch) for a few months to get her bred and have her whelp and raise puppies.

I don't want to get into messy co ownerships and have to fight with people to show and trial their animals and get the genetic testing done, and and and.



> And also, this means people will often wait 12-18 months for a puppy, which is the reason many of them go to the classifieds and get non-health tested dogs.


For smaller operations, this is going to happen anyway. Some breeds only cycle once a year. I only have one bitch as it is. She cycles twice a year, and I may breed her back to back ONCE. People are going to have to wait.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Both of those things are horrible reasons to deny a dog the major and have nothing to do with structure x.x I've heard more and more complaints about Mr. Trotter in the last couple years, which is just too bad.


He is notoriously scared of ACDs. I do not know if he is the only Judge that is that way. And there are enough incidents with the breed in the ring that it is not completely undeserved. But mostly is the timid, scared or foolish judges that have problems. You should never approach any dog from behind. And that goes double for ACDs. But some judges do it. 

Merlin did not cause an issue that day. He is a ROCK. A UKC judge stepped on his foot hard once. Merlin just pulled his foot away. I was more worked up about it than he was. Another AKC judge stumbled into me and Merlin. I had to drop the lead to catch the judge. Merlin got pushed aside. But never really broke his stack. When I tell him to stand, he stands. 

Anyway.... On this day... I do not want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but.... I may have been set up. Merlin was still a class dog and I had been battling a pro handler with a reputation of playing dirty all fall. They had a class dog as well. Anyway. Before we went into the ring, this handler was chatty with the judge. She obviously knew him well. 

So we go into the ring. He has us move around. Merlin is the first dog in the class. So I stack him. Judge has me show the bite. He then says grab your dog on both sides of his head. I said excuse me? He said I want you to hold the dog on both sides of his head. I did it, I probably should not have. I had never done anything like that in the ring and Merlin knew something was up. (When do you hold a dog like that? When the vet is going to give a shot or mess with their backside) Anyway, after I did that, Judge Trotter moves back close to Merlin's tail. Merlin was not out of control but was not thrilled and trying to see what was going on. As soon as the judge touched him, Merlin sat down. The Judge stepped back and said " I am going to have to let you go." I said excuse me... He said you are excused. 

Others could not believe what happened. Several of us dug up the AKC Rep and the Show chair and had a discussion about it. I also wrote formal letters of complaint and got letters from witnesses. 
Nothing ever happened about it. Merlin just got tagged for Failure to Stand for Examination. 

Odd thing... I had him in Herding Group another time. Trotter seemed Squirrelly. It was about 18 months later. I do not know if he remembered us or not. I sort of silly talked to Merlin causing him to wag his tail. Then grabbed his muzzle immediately after showing the bite. He barely touched him but did not excuse us.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> In my opinion, if breeders want those genetics, they either need to keep some for themselves, or be prepared to pay for the litters they want with THEIR money instead of presenting the idea of "co ownership" to a n00b, and then making said n00b pay for all the litter costs when they only get to keep half (or none) of the litter.
> 
> I am not down with that, have experienced it personally, and won't do it to somebody else. That's not a "deal". That's taking advantage of somebody who just wants to get in conformation and feels they must sign a piece of obligatory clap trap in order to fulfill their dream.



Well my litter back agreement on Betty, the bitch I co own....
I got the bitch for FREE. I paid all of her showing expenses. And upkeep expenses while she was here. When she was with the breeder, she takes care of upkeep. I paid for PRCD, PRCD4 and PLL. The Breeder is doing hips, elbows, cardiac and BAER. 

The Breeder is paying all litter expenses. I get back a puppy from any litter I choose or 65 percent of the selling price of a show prospect puppy. 

And we have to agree on any stud she goes to. We plan on two litters with her and have both dogs lined up. 

I think that is a pretty good deal. There were two stunning bitches in that litter. In fact the entire litter was RED hot! In out Out of the litter of five, 4 are finished and one needs a single point. So she had these two hot bitches. I do not really want to be a breeder, but I want ready access to high quality genetics. And I LOVE the grand sire of these bitches. He is in my top five of all time favorite ACDs. 

So anyway. The Breeder had these two HOT bitches. She knew I wanted another dog to play with. I mentioned buying one of them. But she gave me co ownership on her. Because she knew based on what I did with Merlin, I would get out there and go hard with Betty. I did. She was the first of the litter to Finish. 

With Merlin, I agreed to show him to my best effort to a Ch. I far exceeded that. I also agreed to do his hips, elbows, PRCD, and BAER. I exceeded that as well. He had his CHIC within two months of turning two. She did not ask me to CHIC him. Other test have come out in the last couple of years for ACDs. I did those as well. Plus DNA, tested for markers on other stuff. 

Per the contract, once he was a CH and tested she was to sign off of him as co owner. I have not asked her to sign. She has asked me about it a few times. I always say one day. But I have no plans to ask her to sign. 
She has breeding rights to him for life. To any bitch she owns or co owns. But... She has yet to use him. Most of the bitches she has now are too closely related. She has brought in a bitch from Canada specifically to breed to him. Because she goes back to the Olmans line out of Australia. Merlin has Olmans in his pedigree as well. We were thinking of breeding her at the last heat but we need to line up some more of the right kind of puppy buyers. Not that there are any shortage of folks that want a Merlin Pup. Heck I have a good list on my own. But Merlin is a hard charger and up towards the top in drive etc. This bitch is possibly more hard core than he is. So we waited. I may take a puppy if there is something I think I have to have. And the breeder will keep one. But we need three more that will spend the time and effort to keep such a dog happy and not create a monster. 


And then there is Hawk. I have nothing on paper with him. She did a litter with another breeder and Hawk was her pick. He goes back to another of my FAVORITES. This fall, I have been paying Hawks show expenses, paying a young Pro Handler that is just getting started to handle him. In fact Hawk is here right now. We are showing in the morning. 8 am ring time. 

I have several options on Hawk. And there is an end game for me if I want it. But I have no idea what I want. Mostly I have him out because I LIKE the Heck out of this dog and enjoy playing with him. He gets along well here with the other critters. This may seem odd. But the breeder was not ready to concentrate on his show career. I think he is Hot Stuff! and wanted to see him out. 

Hawk on his first time in the ring..... This young lady met him face to face about an hour and a half before ring time. 










I feel that my agreements are fair. I am happy with them. And that is the important thing that the breeder and owner are both happy. 

I have what I want.... 
The Breeder has what she wants. 
And the dogs are happy have great lives and are well taken care of.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I know a lot of breeders breed for themselves, because they want another dog themselves. They don't breed for the public.
> 
> But isn't this counter intuitive? We want the general public to buy their purebred dogs from reputable breeders, but reputable breeders only breed for themselves. So where is the general public supposed to get their dogs from? Even if there are 9 pups in a litter and 8 of these go to the general public, this isn't going to meet the demand for dogs in society. And also, this means people will often wait 12-18 months for a puppy, which is the reason many of them go to the classifieds and get non-health tested dogs.
> 
> ...


my only opinion on this is .. nothing good comes of commercial breeding programs.. even one that is active and finishing out Champions. J comes from Ch parents and she is healthy, x ray'd pretty GSD.. Sat 2 years in a kennel, mindless.. She was absolutely crazy arriving as a show prospect to her first owner with a huge price tag.. Had been taught nothing..... and J was a replacement pup for the first pup being just a neurotic as J.. It might of been over exaggerated that this kennel puts out 500 pups a year which I can't imagine that being possible....... But when J was re-homed to me I thought I would call and let the original breeder know that she was with me and doing well.. The breeder had no idea who J was even giving her the parents and the date of the litter and that J was on her property for 2 years in her care.. The breeder was clueless of who J was, who or how she was sold to........... Its just a comparison.... It just doesn't work in mass production because all the dogs need hands on care and interaction daily.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> my only opinion on this is .. *nothing good comes of commercial breeding programs*.. even one that is active and finishing out Champions. J comes from Ch parents and she is healthy, x ray'd pretty GSD.. Sat 2 years in a kennel, mindless.. She was absolutely crazy arriving as a show prospect to her first owner with a huge price tag.. Had been taught nothing..... and J was a replacement pup for the first pup being just a neurotic as J.. It might of been over exaggerated that this kennel puts out 500 pups a year which I can't imagine that being possible....... But when J was re-homed to me I thought I would call and let the original breeder know that she was with me and doing well.. The breeder had no idea who J was even giving her the parents and the date of the litter and that J was on her property for 2 years in her care.. The breeder was clueless of who J was, who or how she was sold to........... Its just a comparison.... It just doesn't work in mass production because all the dogs need hands on care and interaction daily.


I tend to agree with this. I could see "breeding for the public" becoming a slippery slope to dogs who don't meet the breed standard. Even if breeders start with good intentions, there would be a temptation to cut corners and then you'll have dogs that don't look or act like the breed they're supposed to be.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Both of those things are horrible reasons to deny a dog the major and have nothing to do with structure x.x I've heard more and more complaints about Mr. Trotter in the last couple years, which is just too bad.


He's gotten more grumpy and stingy as he has aged. A lot of clubs won't hire him, because he can be a pain to deal with.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It's good you've had those experiences, Johnny....I have not had the same good fortune, so in general I opt not to do co owns.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> It's good you've had those experiences, Johnny....I have not had the same good fortune, so in general I opt not to do co owns.


Well agreements are two way streets. If they are going to be an agreement at both sides should benefit.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ooooo I hate bias judges :/ I ran into that a lot with JRTs when I showed them. Judges started favoring the dogs who looked like wiry bull terriers :/. Bear is more the leggy, streamlined. "Classic" JRT that would have originally been used for for hunting. 

He only placed well in one conformation class, and if had a British judge who judged dogs like they were supposed to be judged and everyone complained because he didn't go with the trends ... Some even filed complaints against him :/.

Bear never could do well in conformation because he wasn't the right "type" so I concentrated on putting working titles on him. He ended up with numerous ribbons in hunting trials, racing, agility and obedience. I wanted totes for a bronze medallion but I would have to go OOS for it and I didn't have the money


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Ooooo I hate bias judges :/ I ran into that a lot with JRTs when I showed them. Judges started favoring the dogs who looked like wiry bull terriers :/. Bear is more the leggy, streamlined. "Classic" JRT that would have originally been used for for hunting.
> 
> He only placed well in one conformation class, and if had a British judge who judged dogs like they were supposed to be judged and everyone complained because he didn't go with the trends ... Some even filed complaints against him :/.
> 
> Bear never could do well in conformation because he wasn't the right "type" so I concentrated on putting working titles on him. He ended up with numerous ribbons in hunting trials, racing, agility and obedience. I wanted totes for a bronze medallion but I would have to go OOS for it and I didn't have the money


This is a classic positive point for any breed, breeder for showing conformation... you weren't going to change your JTR's to win in the ring you were passionate about your interpretation of the breed to their original history as a working dog.. That makes a difference to the breed for the future. (to have the courage and passion to stand alone during times of quick win fads) My Major was shown during the period of extremes in GSD's he looked like an alien in the ring,,, he was said to be (old fashion) the first day I entered the breed club for class, I was told you can't show that dog get a new one... Of course I didn't... and when Major lost a BOB because he took a step.. The judge said when we were set up for a picture he said he was sorry Major didn't win.. But I was smiling from ear to ear that it was ok, he finished his CD earlier that day and he passed his certs for Patrol / explosive.. And the judge did a double take at me and Major... When the fads come and go getting your original dogs out there to been seen makes a difference makes a difference to the breed..


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I wanted to address the issue of not enough show breeders "breeding for pet homes". 

I think if you want to be one of the great breeders who has a long lasting impact on a breed, you do need to breed a decent number of litters. You need to find out which lines nick together, what sires and dams are producing, etc. It's these people who end up with a lot of puppies going to pet homes.

The small scale breeders, like Xeph, are breeding for themselves, so they aren't generally going to be putting a lot of puppies out into the pet market, because they might breed very few litters.

At the rate we're going, no, there probably aren't enough well bred puppies for everybody in the country who wants a puppy, but lots of those people don't go to good breeders anyway. But there are breeders out there having a few litters per year consistently, in order to advance their breeding program, and they are putting out plenty of wonderful pets. Not all breeders are small scale who only whelp a litter every few years, though these breeders might be more common.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Thought I would post the process in which a breed become eligible for FSS-Misc-Full AKC. 

http://images.akc.org/pdf/FSS_Checklist.pdf

This process is not an overnight one, it takes quite a bit of effort, and for most years of effort.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

And some breeds never get full recognition


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## Jmc1985 (Nov 27, 2012)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Thought I would post the process in which a breed become eligible for FSS-Misc-Full AKC.
> 
> http://images.akc.org/pdf/FSS_Checklist.pdf
> 
> This process is not an overnight one, it takes quite a bit of effort, and for most years of effort.


We've been lucky with the MAS - seems as though they've been fast tracked through AKC. I know most breeds aren't as fortunate.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Can someone interpret this for me? Standard Poodle Results

I looked at the legend, but still have no idea who won breed. My guess is GCH UNIQUE DIAMOND IN THE RUFF who was B, but what about UNIQUE QUEEN OF DAZZLE who was 1/W/BW/OS (did she place second after the breed winner?) and UNIQUE WINNING COLORS who was 1/W (is that just for that class?)?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

1 - First in her class
W - Winner's bitch (got points)
BW - Best of Winners (Winner's dog got no cross over if there was anything to cross)
OS - Best of Opposite Sex

Diamond in the Ruff was Best of Breed

Winning Colors won his class and then went winner's dog.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

cookieface said:


> Can someone interpret this for me? Standard Poodle Results
> 
> I looked at the legend, but still have no idea who won breed. My guess is GCH UNIQUE DIAMOND IN THE RUFF who was B, but what about UNIQUE QUEEN OF DAZZLE who was 1/W/BW/OS (did she place second after the breed winner?) and UNIQUE WINNING COLORS who was 1/W (is that just for that class?)?


Xeph has already explained it but here is a key 

http://www.infodog.com/results/rsltcode.htm


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Xeph has already explained it but here is a key
> 
> http://www.infodog.com/results/rsltcode.htm


So by going by this, (just gonna add more to what Xeph noted):

GCH. Unique Diamond in the Ruff was BOB
Unique Winning Colors won his Open dog class plus went Winners Dog (and that is as far as he went)
Unique Queen of Dazzle won her Open Bitch class, went Winners Bitch, and also went Best of Opposite Sex (there were no bitch specials, so as long as the judge didn't withhold she would automatically be BOS)


Amandi's Marty Michelet was second in the Open dog class, and he was reserve winner's dog
L'Paige Magick Rock a Little won her Bred-by bitch class, and she was reserve winner's bitch
GCH. L'Paige Islands In The Stream was Select Dog


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for the interpretation. I had seen the legend of results code, but didn't know how to interpret what the codes meant in context.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

I've been reading this thread with interest.

I've been involved in showing dogs in conformation since the mid-90s. I have had GSDs, Belgians and now a PyrShep but I started training and going to matches with my Collie before I had a show dog. My involvement with showing GSDs was pretty brief, just not my scene and my better show GSD died really young. I had already gotten involved in showing Belgians by that point and liked that it was a more laid back and welcoming community. I liked that owner-handlers could compete at the highest levels with them (Belgians are not highly competitive in group but owner handlers certainly get BOBs very often, group placements and sometimes even a BIS along with winning specialties). And perhaps the biggest draw was that the same Belgians who were doing great in performance and obedience were winning at the highest levels in conformation. So Belgians it was! I have finished several now, including one from Bred-By and could have finished a few more but just didn't pursue it. I have a male who needs 1 single point that he'll never get and a bitch who has 9 points and both majors that I just may put back in the ring and try to finish (she's 11 now LOL). I have done well at Nationals with my dogs, getting a RWB with my Bred-By and a Select/Award of Merit this past year with my youngest. I have also shown a Samoyed and a few Greys, getting majors on dogs in both breeds. 

So I'm pretty familiar with conformation showing. It's just a game like any other competitive thing you do with your dog. There's not any higher meaning, it's been a long time since it was actually "a venue to evaluate breeding stock". Behavior wise, it's far easier to train the average dog what is needed to be a conformation show dog than it is to train them to compete in other venues (aside from stuff that's mostly instinct like lure coursing). There is quite a learning curve for all the presentation and grooming tricks that can help your dog look their best. But then again, my mother started showing my Bred-By bitch without ever having practiced with her...like at all and has been doing fine. Of course, said bitch is well trained enough and put together well enough that she looked good with a 3 year old in Pee Wee Juniors LOL

Xeph is far more dedicated to daily show prep than I am LOL. My dogs get baths before a show, when they're shedding or when they're dirty. Unless there's an issue that I think more frequent bathing will help. I trim their feet and hocks and then do minimal grooming at the show. I used to do more at the show but haven't honestly seen a difference in how well the dogs did. Main at-show grooming is spritzing them with water or whatever coat spray, brushing them up, brushing their legs up with a slicker and if needed, clipping a towel around them to control cowlicks or waves. I'm thankful for having a breed that doesn't require much in the way of pre-show grooming (the PyrShep needs even less LOL). I know lots of other tricks too, taking hair out to make the heads look a certain way and what not but again, I don't generally do that stuff any more cause I'm not that interested and haven't noticed a difference in results from it. 

The biggest thing that makes a difference in results is knowing your judges. And that comes with time. I take a chances on judges sometimes (sometimes you gotta) and I will enter under less desirable judges or judges I don't know anything about to build points or just cause I'll be there anyway. But mostly, I do try to enter under judges I think my dog might appeal to. Not all judges are created equal in terms of knowledge, especially when you have a lower entry breed. I like showing to the bigger name judges but others shy away from them worrying they're too political. IME in my breed, bigger name judges are often more likely to pick what they like. Just putting up a handler can be a sign the judge doesn't know what to look for in the breed. Of course, politics certainly come into play. I was offered the point my one dog needs if I just showed under the friend of a friend (someone not even involved in my breed). Stuff like that goes on, it's part of the game but it doesn't always play as big of a part as people imagine. At least not at the breed level. Still, it's not likely that an owner-handler who shows occasionally and doesn't advertise and especially one with a lower entry breed will ever win a BIS. It happens from time to time, usually at very small shows but it's still not likely. 

Something I don't think has been brought up but is always interesting and a good learning experience is to participate in judges education if you get a chance. You get to see what your breed's parent club puts importance on in judging and you get to hear what different judges think when judging and why they make the choices they do. Sometimes you catch things you may not have thought about but will help you in the future. And sometimes the reasoning are just...weird LOL But still useful because that's still what some are focused on.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Now I have to go back and read, but I do think if a dog makes contact with a judge, I think that is an automatic DQ and the three strikes rule doesn't apply, but I may be wrong.


 Yes if a dog actually bites a judge or attacks another dog, they can be disqualified automatically. Dogs who are disqualified may be able to be reinstated but the judge who disqualified the dog has to approve allowing the dog to go through the reinstatement process.



JazzyTheSiberian said:


> Sorry for replying so late.
> 
> There are many breeds I am interested in:
> 
> ...


 As a newbie, you would be best sticking with breeds that are less competitive and handler focused and which allow for a greater variety of type to be able to finish. Tervs are one of those breeds and I think Eskies are too. And Sibes to a degree. Those are much more owner-handler, newbie friendly breeds than Shelties, Dobes or GSDs, with Dobes and GSDs being some of the hardest breeds for owner-handlers to be competitive in overall. Also IME, the lower number breeds like Tervs tend to have a more friendly, welcoming community than the more competitive breeds.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

it seems to me that for some breeds ... AKC recognition is the beginning of a slippery slope downward , I wish it wasn't that way.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> it seems to me that for some breeds ... AKC recognition is the beginning of a slippery slope downward , I wish it wasn't that way.


 I'm not sure if that's really true. Lots of things cause breeds to change - culture, work or lack of, changes in needs/wants and largely the opinions of the majority of people involved in the breed at any given moment. Breeds are constantly changing due to those thing and will continue to constantly change. The breeds that retain working ability are ones which there is still a real need for them to work and a big enough community to support a work oriented breeding program. People always like to point at show GSDs as proof "AKC ruins breeds" but the truth is, the dogs you see in the AKC ring have no real impact on the breed as a whole. They are bred and maintained by people who want that type of GSD and people who don't want GSDs like that have other types of GSDs that suit them better. Same with BCs - the show BCs are their own population. Also FWIW, the show BC already existed before the breed was accepted into AKC. The early AKC show BCs were all from Australian and New Zealand lines and pretty much all looked just the the show BCs you see today. When they were first recognized, some people did show more working type dogs and some of those finished but the import line fluffy, symmetrically marked show BCs were always preferred. 

Now there are breeds where there are pretty much only show and pet lines. Actually a lot of breeds. But that isn't necessarily bad and it's not necessarily because "showing/AKC recognition ruined them". Most it's largely because there's not a need for them for work anymore. Portuguese fishermen don't need to rely on dogs to help them with the nets or transport messages back and forth any more, so modern PWDs are going to be bred for show/companions or they're going to be extinct. That doesn't mean they don't retain some instincts or characteristics of the original dogs and certainly PWD fanciers like to do waterwork with their dogs. But it's not the same and because it's not the same, the dogs aren't the same. If a breed being show bred is a good or bad thing depends solely on the people involved and what their priorities are. But one could hardly expect anyone interested in PWDs to dedicate their life to fishing the old way with their dogs to make sure they are "just like" those old dogs. And the truth is even if they did dedicate their life to that, the dogs would still be different because that's just how things go. I think the working GSD community does a great job at preserving the breed's proper working temperament and there's still a lot of need for working GSDs. However, I don't think our modern working bred GSDs are "just like" Von Stephanitz's dogs either. They're probably better in many ways but probably not in all. And such things are subject certainly and depend on context, our modern dogs may not have been better for Von Stephanitz's time and his dogs may have been less than ideal in our's.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

^^Excellent post, for sure.

The longer I am in GSDs, the more I realize how hard it is to get "working" titles on them. I have tried schutzhund...I always start out excited, but...I hate it. I do. I hate the attitudes people have towards my American dogs, I hate that I am not able to consistently get out to a club because of my physical limitations, I hate trying to find a club I feel welcomed at. The whole atmosphere is just not for me. Not to mention it's a 4 hour round trip, which is expensive in terms of gas, and is hard on me physically. It's not a cheap sport either....$300/year for dues. Can't do it.

I love herding, but there are only TWO places "nearby" in my area, and both are an hour and a half away. Both people use German Shepherds, and American lines (unusual for sure), but it's still a 3 hour round trip for me, and while I want to put a dual championship on Wesson, I'm not sure I'll be able to, due to my limitations (I'd at least like to get her intermediate titles). And again, $20/lesson, once or twice a week.

It's frustrating to say the least.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

Xeph said:


> ^^Excellent post, for sure.
> 
> The longer I am in GSDs, the more I realize how hard it is to get "working" titles on them. I have tried schutzhund...I always start out excited, but...I hate it. I do. I hate the attitudes people have towards my American dogs, I hate that I am not able to consistently get out to a club because of my physical limitations, I hate trying to find a club I feel welcomed at. The whole atmosphere is just not for me. Not to mention it's a 4 hour round trip, which is expensive in terms of gas, and is hard on me physically. It's not a cheap sport either....$300/year for dues. Can't do it.
> 
> ...


 The club in Palmyra is pretty welcoming IME. A friend of mine even trained her Standard Poodle there  they were cool with my fluffy Belgian, my Amline GSD, my friend's pit mix and her nervebag pet bred Rottie. But that's not really close for you either. SchH is pretty all consuming, it's not something you can really dabble in and for me, it was obvious that I couldn't participate in it while continuing to do the other stuff I want to with my dogs. And I really don't like tracking. I really enjoy bitesports but they just don't suit me, my lifestyle or my other interests. And it turns out Flyball is a pretty good substitute for the crazy, driven, adrenaline aspect of bitesports  

I accepted long ago that I can only do what I can do with my dogs. I don't have unlimited money and time to pursue getting high level titles in everything with every dog. What initially drew me to Belgians remains to be my goal with my dogs - CHs with multiple other titles. I like versatility, so that is what i choose to focus on. It is unlikely my dogs will do herding beyond HICs. There's no where close for me to go regularly for lesson and it's expensive. I'll test them on sheep but with dogs who have a lot of drive, if they aren't on stock regularly every time you go you have to work through the arousal around stock issues. And I already discussed bitesports. So instead, I'll finish them and get some obedience, agility, coursing and maybe Flyball titles on them. Because those are the things I like the most and I can mostly train alone, cheap or free. 

FWIW My current show dog is a CH CD OA OAJ CA RN HIC FCT (full character test through UBSDA) + most CPE Level 3 titles. Goals for next year are finish her AX AXJ titles, level 3 CPE titles and maybe get a CDX. Work on GrCH here and there, I'm not focused on it but I know she'll eventually get it. And IMO if I stopped there, it's still a lot of nice accomplishments and definitely shows she's a versatile dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

That's what I mean ... There shouldn't be a show/working anything there should be one breed, left as it is, not watered down to suit the "average " home. I am seeing that with the JRT and I do not like it. If a person can't handle a JRT then don't get one ... Simple as that. Or ask the breeder for one of their lower drive pups (there are always a few in every litter). I fear that if the Acd becomes popular then it will make the same split as the GSD and the BC, and I don't want to see that.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I dunno. I'm kinda way over people saying what should or shouldn't exist. I don't want to own most working line Shepherds, just as many people don't want an American show line.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

This comes, obviously, from someone that basically has at least one of each style of GSD in her house. The fact of the matter is (and here we go, generalities now *GASP*):
American lines are not suitable for service work. They do not have the temperament to do the work, and those that do, of course don't have the structure (depending on the work needed).
Working lines can't be shown. Well, they can, but you won't do jack crap with them in the ring. And you certainly aren't going to finish one in the American ring, which is my venue of choice.
European show lines could possibly do service work, and they can be shown in the SV style ring...but I hate the SV ring, and finding a Euro show line without a hump in its back is difficult. They also only come in black and red (Boring). SOMETIMES you can find a patterned sable, but it's hard.

So, I have American lines to show in the AKC conformation ring and performance events, working lines for actual work, and, perhaps if I can find one I like, I will one day have a 100% European show line in my home.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Genuinely curious. What is it about American lines people heavily into GSDs dislike?


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

RCloud said:


> Genuinely curious. What is it about American lines people heavily into GSDs dislike?


Well people into American line GSDs love them  People into German lines don't prefer the structure and temperament of the Amlines. The average GSD pet owner doesn't entirely know the difference between the various types of GSDs. There's basically four "types" of GSDs - German working lines, German show lines, American show lines and pet lines. But there's some crossing of those and there's several specific "types" of working line GSDs too. 

A lot of the German working line people are very serious about persevering working character in their dogs. Breeding dogs without working titles (meaning SchH/IPO or HGH, nothing else is considered a working title), health tests and a conformation rating is pretty much considered a sin in the working GSD crowd. And those are all things which happen regularly in Amline GSDs, it's pretty rare for them to have working titles and TBH they aren't bred for that. The German show lines also have to have a conformation rating, working title and health tests to be bred, although many working line people will tell you they don't have as strong of character generally speaking as the working line dogs. The interesting thing about GSDs is they were created by one guy, who had a very specific goal of what he wanted for the breed. He wrote a book, formed the parent club in Germany and developed Schutzhund as a way to test breeding dogs who weren't regularly worked for suitability for breeding. So it's in a way, easier to preserve the things that the founder felt were important than in a lot of older breeds where it is really anyone's guess what the original dogs were like. 

However, times and cultures change and that has led us to this far flung future where there's a GSD to suit just about anyone's interests or needs in the breed. Amline GSDs exist and will continue to exist unless the majority of people breeding them decide to take them in another direction. Which is unlikely because the reason people have them is they prefer them to the various other types of GSDs they can have. To each their own and all that. I have friends who have all types of GSDs and amazingly, I can get along fine with them all and I can appreciate their dogs for what they are. If I ever get another GSD, it will be working bred from a friend of mine. Because I feel I'm most likely to find what I want and prefer in a GSD from those dogs. That doesn't mean my preference has to be everyone's though.



OwnedbyACDs said:


> That's what I mean ... There shouldn't be a show/working anything there should be one breed, left as it is, not watered down to suit the "average " home. I am seeing that with the JRT and I do not like it. If a person can't handle a JRT then don't get one ... Simple as that. Or ask the breeder for one of their lower drive pups (there are always a few in every litter). I fear that if the Acd becomes popular then it will make the same split as the GSD and the BC, and I don't want to see that.



I'm reminded of this retrieverman post whenever these discussions come up. It's about Julius Wipfel and his attempts to recreate a breed but there's valid points about dog breeding in general. http://retrieverman.net/2010/05/13/the-recreated-ancient-eurasian-spitz/

"I suppose we dog people are always a bit influenced by romance and nostalgia. I think those influences are healthy, but they are only acceptable if they are sublimated to a simple understanding that the dog is an organism with it own needs for a healthy gene pool and its own “being presence.” I am not so sure we can call that “being presence” a mind, but it is a close approximation.

Dogs also exist within the cultural and economic conditions of their time period, which is why I don’t think we can recreate the St. John’s water dog and the Irish wolfhound probably isn’t the animal you want to use when you go to Alaska on a wolf hunt. The selective pressures that produced these animals disappear or are distorted once the exact conditions no longer exist.

I don’t think my romance and nostalgia would ever lead me to do what Julius Wipfel and his colleagues did. After all, that project cost a lot of money and took decades to perfect.

But I can’t say I’m not influenced by these same forces.

Dog people wouldn’t be much without some romance and nostalgia.

It’s just got to be kept in perspective."

I especially love those last two lines.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> That's what I mean ... There shouldn't be a show/working anything there should be one breed, left as it is, not watered down to suit the "average " home. I am seeing that with the JRT and I do not like it. If a person can't handle a JRT then don't get one ... Simple as that. Or ask the breeder for one of their lower drive pups (there are always a few in every litter). I fear that if the Acd becomes popular then it will make the same split as the GSD and the BC, and I don't want to see that.


This is something that you can't prevent from occurring. If anything, welcome the split. You still get what you want and everyone else can have what they want. 

To me, there are several types of dogs within a breed. Pets, Show (meaning confirmation), Working (herding on a farm, police dog, service dog, hunting dog, etc), Sport (agility, herding, flyball, bite work, field trials, etc)... These types can easily overlap. I have (currently) a pet/ex-sporty dog in Pepper and a pet/show/potential sport dog in Merlin. Bae was a pet dog with very little potential for anything else. 

If I want a dog who can be a pet and also dog sports, I find a breeder who does this. If I want a show dog, I find a breeder who does this. If I want a hard working dog, I find a breeder who does this. Showing isn't the be all, end all. It's its own thing. That I like. But I also like sport and pet type dogs. So I find a breeder who can give me this. Want an ACD who can work your cattle everyday? They breed for that! I highly doubt all the people in the ACD show world also work their dogs on the daily, harkening back to their original duty. So the split has already occurred.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

RCloud said:


> Genuinely curious. What is it about American lines people heavily into GSDs dislike?


 This. (Should have you start at about 6:52)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yZMegQH1SPg#t=412


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Does anyone know what kind of GSDs the police use in Egypt? 

My SOs favorite breed is GSDs and he had two growing up in Egypt that were trained police dogs ( got them from a family member that worked for the police). Anyways, he is always complaining that GSDs here look nothing like his dogs did. 

I'm thinking that they must be European or something.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Does anyone know what kind of GSDs the police use in Egypt?
> 
> My SOs favorite breed is GSDs and he had two growing up in Egypt that were trained police dogs ( got them from a family member that worked for the police). Anyways, he is always complaining that GSDs here look nothing like his dogs did.
> 
> I'm thinking that they must be European or something.


 The vast majority of police dogs are German working lines or German working/show line crosses and occasionally German Showlines. There's a few Amline working police dogs out there but that is quite uncommon. 

Not sure what dogs he's referring to when he says the GSDs we have in this country don't look like the police dogs he remembers. We have all kinds of GSDs in this country, probably far for variation than most counties. But there's a lot of variance in looks, even among dogs of the same general lines. For example:

This is a working bred GSD:









So is this:









And this:









And...









Then German showlines more or less look like this (some have more coat, some have lighter or darker coloring, more or less roachy topline but basically...they're all pretty similar in type and color):


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would take the middle two dogs (and I know who they are), but I wouldn't take the other three


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Honestly I'm not really sure what GSDs he's seen in the past but since we've been together he's seen at least 3 different ones and he didn't like any of them. GSDs aren't really common around here for some reason.

I'm thinking that it must be German working lines he's used to. I would think Egypt's best bet would be to import European dogs for police work since they don't really have many reputable breeders in the country itself but I'm not sure. I've tried showing him different pictures and he always has some complaint against them. I'm starting to think he has some fantasized belief about what his dogs looked like that isn't completely accurate lol. It's gotten to the point where I told him if he wants his perfect GSD he's going to have to fly over to Egypt and pick it n up and import it back or something... He's too picky.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I would take the middle two dogs (and I know who they are), but I wouldn't take the other three


 Those are my preferences too  The East German dog is acceptable by me too but I don't prefer the excessive bone.




xoxluvablexox said:


> I've tried showing him different pictures and he always has some complaint against them. I'm starting to think he has some fantasized belief about what his dogs looked like that isn't completely accurate lol. It's gotten to the point where I told him if he wants his perfect GSD he's going to have to fly over to Egypt and pick it n up and import it back or something... He's too picky.


 I suspect you're right. it just might be best for him to just leave the super awesome perfect GSDs to his memory and choose a different breed.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I don't need a show line rear, but GSDs with little/no bend of stifle REALLY bother me. I can't stand it.


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## quatro (Aug 14, 2013)

I think conformation is the only "sport" where handler can lure, feed and correct the dog all during the routine


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Alerondogs said:


> Well people into American line GSDs love them  People into German lines don't prefer the structure and temperament of the Amlines. The average GSD pet owner doesn't entirely know the difference between the various types of GSDs. There's basically four "types" of GSDs - German working lines, German show lines, American show lines and pet lines. But there's some crossing of those and there's several specific "types" of working line GSDs too.
> 
> A lot of the German working line people are very serious about persevering working character in their dogs. Breeding dogs without working titles (meaning SchH/IPO or HGH, nothing else is considered a working title), health tests and a conformation rating is pretty much considered a sin in the working GSD crowd. And those are all things which happen regularly in Amline GSDs, it's pretty rare for them to have working titles and TBH they aren't bred for that. The German show lines also have to have a conformation rating, working title and health tests to be bred, although many working line people will tell you they don't have as strong of character generally speaking as the working line dogs. The interesting thing about GSDs is they were created by one guy, who had a very specific goal of what he wanted for the breed. He wrote a book, formed the parent club in Germany and developed Schutzhund as a way to test breeding dogs who weren't regularly worked for suitability for breeding. So it's in a way, easier to preserve the things that the founder felt were important than in a lot of older breeds where it is really anyone's guess what the original dogs were like.
> 
> ...


Great post! Very enlightening . 

As for the GSD's I love the top two dogs but ... I for one don't find a lot of bend in the stifle appealing personally


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

And of course, I'm of the mind of if I wanted a dog with no rear, I'd have a Chow or a Shar Pei


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Sibe said:


> This. (Should have you start at about 6:52)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=yZMegQH1SPg#t=412


Those are not Am line dogs.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Those are European show lines, and not very good ones


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I've never considered conformation a sport but that's JMO. 

I do enjoy it, I'm not a people person but I like to see all the fine dogs & meet some like minded people. As well as compete against them. 

Most my dogs like it. Some become upset when they know it's show time but are not going or even think they are getting left behind.

For me there is a lot of work that generally goes into showing. As some dogs need conditioning weeks prior to shows. So it's hours of work in that respect. 

I'm not against some type of point system, there are actually such things in existence. However I don't see a problem with how things are done for the most part. The dog is basically judged by the standard. Of course there are other dogs in the ring who your competitors because there is placement. But the placement is in the order of which dog is closest to the standard & best on that day. Some judges are bias or politics involved. Though I don't see this as a problem overall rather that people are humans & might interpret the standard different or view the same dogs differently. It's not a bias. Dogs can also be presented differently even though they are judged by a standard how they stack or behave can effect how they look or ring attitude. Therefore how well they place.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

The ACDs in some lines are getting heavier in bone and muscle, as well as heavier in the coat. I don't like it, since elbow and hip displastia is already a problem within the breed as it is and Javier bodies aren't going to help :/


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> As for the GSD's I love the top two dogs but ... I for one don't find a lot of bend in the stifle appealing personally


Those two dogs have very different rears. The second one down, is more correct. The first one has too little rear angulation. 



OwnedbyACDs said:


> The ACDs in some lines are getting heavier in bone and muscle, as well as heavier in the coat. I don't like it, since elbow and hip displastia is already a problem within the breed as it is and Javier bodies aren't going to help :/


 Are there more heavy boned ACDs failing OFAs than lighter boned dogs?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> The ACDs in some lines are getting heavier in bone and muscle, as well as heavier in the coat. I don't like it, since elbow and hip displastia is already a problem within the breed as it is and Javier bodies aren't going to help :/



Some are... And in some of the working only lines the dogs are getting far to spindly.  Coat with ACDs has much to do with climate. 

Have you seen Hawk on my page? When he came to Florida from Colorado it was January. First thing I said is what the hell is wrong with his coat. The dog looked like a wooly worm. Six months later he looked like all the Florida dogs.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Alerondogs said:


> Are there more heavy boned ACDs failing OFAs than lighter boned dogs?


No... And HD is not what I would call a huge issues in ACDs it is there. And until it is none it is an issue. 

But they are ranked 62 of all breeds data is kept on. and overall 15.5 percent tested. And with dogs born after 2006 it is down a percent and a half to 14%. That is a big drop. 

Elbows they are ranked 28th but only .3 of a percent have gradeIII


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Alerondogs said:


> Those two dogs have very different rears. The second one down, is more correct. The first one has too little rear angulation.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there more heavy boned ACDs failing OFAs than lighter boned dogs?


Not at present but I feed they might start going that way, I fear that we could soon have "show line" ACDs the same way we have show line GSD's and BC's and I DO NOT WANT that to happen, which is why I refuse to buy from a breeder who does not work their dogs.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Not at present but I feed they might start going that way, I fear that we could soon have "show line" ACDs the same way we have show line GSD's and BC's and I DO NOT WANT that to happen, which is why I refuse to buy from a breeder who does not work their dogs.


 What difference does it make if there's show and working lines? It seems like there probably already is? Why do you think amount of bone will cause more HD?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Alerondogs said:


> What difference does it make if there's show and working lines? It seems like there probably already is? Why do you think amount of bone will cause more HD?




There is NO Split.. The breed is NOT moving in the direction of a split. The breed has maintained its strong working and performance roots.. 

Frankly I do not know where Owned by ACDs gets this stuff. ACDs are practically the poster child of how to marry conformation without giving up your working roots. Granted we are younger than a lot of the breeds in the AKC (but older than some breeds that already have splits) So we have not had as long some breeds to screw things up.... 

But Many of those that were involved in the breed from its birth in the AKC are involved with the breed today. And From the National Club down, the dogs working traits are both Emphasized and CELEBRATED. The only way you get your dog in the Register of Merit is to title both sides of the dogs name. And competition in ROMs standings is RABID!!!!!!

Our National Specialty is FIVE days long. Only two are conformation. (And there is performance going on those days as well. ) 

Dogs are recognized and idolized because of their performance. 

The Regional clubs follow suit as well. I am the President of the one of the AKC and National Club Recognized Regional Clubs. 
We hold 5 to 8 performance events a year and one conformation event a year. (Plus maybe one supported entry) 

I also do not know where this notion that bone leads to Dysplasia comes from. Breeding bad hips leads to bad hips... 

I have never seen anything nor ever heard a legitimate theory that too much bone causes hip or elbow dysplasia...


My dislike of too much bone has nothing to do with HD or any other health reasons. 
Bone reduces agility, speed, quickness and the ability to get the HECK out of the way.....

And a dog with too little bone is not durable enough or physically tough enough to take a beating. And an ACD doing its job has to be ready to take a beating. 

The key is balance. You want a tough dogs with enough bone to take some punishment. 


And the thing is... Throughout the breeds history "bone" has been a cyclical thing. I can show you dogs that lived 70 years ago that carried as much or more bone as anything in modern times. 

There is a LARGE breeder in the lower midwest that has a good following that breeds for size.. They have some knarly big dogs. They have some effect on the breed as they often have a dog or two out with big name handlers. 

But their vision is their vision. The breed as a whole is not following that vision. 

And the current trend towards the heavier boned dogs has already reversed itself. In the Early 2000s up to about 2006 three MONSTER dogs did well and held the top spot in the breed for a number of years. Two of them went by the name Rebel. 
The influence of those dogs had pushed the amount of bone up... As some breeders followed suit. 

Now the recent trend among the top dogs is of a MUCH more moderate build. So already the cycle has changed again.

Funny thing is... Merlin was out as a class dog and as a special against all those dogs that were pushing the limits on bone... He looked small sometimes. Aside from the fact that he could USE MORE bone.... 

Now the cycle has changed and I am not showing Merlin much.. But when I do.... He often looks like a giant...


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Just thought I would give this thread a little bump, lol.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Here's something I don't think has been mentioned about conformation showing.

Bitches ruin all your plans.

Bitches in season are allowed to show in conformation, but the problem with that is, if you have entered a show that is over a month away (like I have), depending on how your bitch reacts to being in season, she could be completely naked when it is time to show. Many bitches also do not show as well while in season. They do not want their rear ends messed with, and become very suspicious of judges. Not enough to bite or anything (not the sound dogs, anyway), but enough to break their stack and sit.

Wesson came into season on the 19th, so she will be out of season by the time we have to show in Maryland...but she'll probably look like crap  I am hoping it will be the show she finishes at, but I will not lie. I'm going to be disappointed if I have to take a picture of my very first champion while she is completely naked.

For those that do not understand, here is Wesson naked:









Here she is with hair:


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

When is your Maryland show? Isn't it pretty universal that they shed four months after being in heat, give or take a week or so?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Samshine, no, not universal at all. Some bitches blow coat right before they come into heat, some bitches blow right after, some blow during, etc. The picture of naked Wesson? She's in season there.

I was brushing her out on the 19th and saw undercoat in my brush. The moment I saw undercoat, I did a tissue test (press tissue to vulva, check for blood). Sure enough, she was bleeding.

The show in Maryland is January 18th & 19th.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Yes bitches in season, very lovely time indeed lol. I don't have coated dogs, although I show the spaniels. But my bulldogs do get very big during this time, not a pretty sight. BB doesn't really swell very much, which is a blessing and a curse. Makes it very hard to tell when she is in. 

First heats are the worst, it's a WTH moment for them. 

Hopefully Wes will at least have a little more coat by the shows. Good luck. I am going to the Fredricksburg, VA shows the weekend before those. Grooming space full of spaniels, bulldogs, and BB lol.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Wesson's swelling is SUPER noticeable. It's awful, lol. She also stinks something fierce. Worse than Mogwai did, even.

Good luck in Fredericksburg!

Her hair is already coming out, but we'll see if it'll last decently enough over the next 30 days to keep her looking "ok"


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Wesson's swelling is SUPER noticeable. It's awful, lol. She also stinks something fierce. Worse than Mogwai did, even.
> 
> Good luck in Fredericksburg!


Yeah, the smell is pretty bad sometimes.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Hopefully FB will make majors in Engies, and we can bring the older girl out, as that is all she needs. But I won't hold my breath on that one. Closes Christmas Day, of all days to close lol.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I thought about going down there, but it never makes majors for GSDs  Wesson's mama is coming to me to be finished, but I'm still not driving that far for single points!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I thought about going down there, but it never makes majors for GSDs  Wesson's mama is coming to me to be finished, but I'm still not driving that far for single points!


Going by past entries, it made a 4 major in dogs in 2012. But I know what you mean, there is no guarantee, last year it was only a point in dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

At the risk of sounding ... Gross ( lol ) but I am curious, what do they smell like? Is it kind of like a mare when she is in heat? because they so smell terrible


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Xeph like your honesty about showing. It is not always as easy as some people think. Like you pointed out about entering a bitch only to have to pull because of some hormonal issues or take your chances with a near bald bitch. 


not only do some intact bitches smell when in season but also intact males.  I could no longer stand the smell of my male dog and had him neutered. The smell of musky skunk has finally left the house thank god. I did not plan on showing him or breeding him. I do plan on doing herding and agility with him. I did not enjoy the show world but I have many friends who do. 

good luck in the shows Xeph and Chaosisaweim


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Your male smelled?!

Merlin is intact and I haven't noticed a smell about him. As a matter of fact, his coat doesn't smell at all. Pepper is neutered and not smelly. Bae was neutered but smellier. He just smelled kind of doggy. I attributed it to his oiler coat. Does breed have much to do with it?


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Yes he did! The smell did not come until he was over a year old. Some male dog's urine is smellier than others. He smelled more like a ferret does. Male hormones. He got neutered and about a month later I finally noticed that he no longer had that ferret smell about him. He used to like to sleep underneath the bed by the headboard. The smell would slowly start coming up and I would have to kick him out to go to sleep. 

Females are like that too. My Rottweiler was smellier than my Sheltie.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Is it kind of like a mare when she is in heat? because they so smell terrible


I have never smelled a mare in heat xD My girls smell like, well...fish that has just turned bad. It sounds so stereotypical, but it's true. They don't start stinking until around ovulation, when they're ready to be bred, but when they smell, they are RIPE!

And yes, some boys do smell...but not as bad as bitches (urine or otherwise). Wesson has THE WORST smelling urine of any intact animal I have EVER had. No infection, just really string bitch odor.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Like you pointed out about entering a bitch only to have to pull because of some hormonal issues or take your chances with a near bald bitch.


The ONE thing the big three factions of GSDs can agree on (working lines, AmLines and WGSL) is that when bitches come in season, they can be friggin' NUTS. The soundest bitch can act like a freaking fool when in season, and you may as well just put her up and leave her be until she's done. Not all bitches are like this, but many are.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

luv mi pets said:


> Some male dog's urine is smellier than others.


Ma'ii... Oh God. Story of my life.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> I have never smelled a mare in heat xD My girls smell like, well...fish that has just turned bad. It sounds so stereotypical, but it's true. They don't start stinking until around ovulation, when they're ready to be bred, but when they smell, they are RIPE!
> 
> And yes, some boys do smell...but not as bad as bitches (urine or otherwise). Wesson has THE WORST smelling urine of any intact animal I have EVER had. No infection, just really string bitch odor.


A mRr in heat kind of smells ... Well very very musky like not in a good way. Because they "leak" all the time when in heat and it's gross :/

I never noticed Bear smelling when he was intact ... But his urine? OMG! >_<


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

The smell of their urine is what I am talking about. He is a MAS and he always had pee on his fur which made him smell like a ferret. I would do a shave of the belly to help but still he would manage to get urine on back legs or sometimes he would pee on a female as she was squatting. No manners whatsoever!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I do want to note, that I have never had to pull a bitch because she was in heat. My girls, so far, have never been that bent out of shape while being in heat. I would pull a bitch that I was going to breed if she came into heat. Like BB, there is a show in April I really want to go to, judges are great for her, and I haven't been to it in a couple years, but if she comes into heat before that show, I'll pull her and stay home because I am not missing another heat, hopefully she will go another month. 

It would be disappointing that I could not show her, as if she won the breed, the group judge one of the days has already given her a group 1. But it is what it is.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Just thought this was an interesting read

http://caninechronicle.com/current-articles/the-boston-terrier/


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

That was a wonderful read!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree! (Too short)


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

That was very interesting. Too bad some of the nice crosses around today do not have such dedicated breeders.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Kyllobernese said:


> That was very interesting. Too bad some of the nice crosses around today do not have such dedicated breeders.


Maybe all they need is more time just like the Boston Terrier breeders needed time to get their act together.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think the only "breed" that kind of "did it right" to some extent was the golden doodle and the Labradoodle ... Though they have their share of bad breeders as well.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Thought I would revive this thread and post the new point schedules that will come into affect in May

http://www.akc.org/events/conformation/point_schedule.cfm

you can still find the old ones on that same page. 

We went down in weims for division 3 (my division), down one for both for 3 points, down one for dogs and down two for bitches for 4 points, and down two for dogs and down three for bitches for 5 points. 

Went down in Bulldogs too- For males down three for 3 points, down four for 4 points, down two for 5 points
For Bitches- Stayed the same for 3 points, down 1 for 4 points, and down two for 5 points.


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