# Husky attacked teacup yorkie (california)



## Stirb (Aug 15, 2011)

Hi, well new to site, have a seroius question here, hard to ask it some where else because more people dont understand huskies or this situation and just go off ranting about how its my fault and the dog is bad....well here it goes


At the dog park today with my 2 year old husky and 6 month old husky, went to go get the 2 year old to leave when this lady comes running saying he killed her teacup yorkie. Well the husky is a very sweet dog around the house and never shows sign of aggression or trys to harm the lil maltipoo. I didnt see the situation go down so I cant say what happened. But makes me wonder why is such a small small dog at a dog park here such large dogs as great danes go? Whos really at fault here? Im on the side she shouldnt have brought a small dog to the park, if it wasnt my dog, whos to say another high prey driven dog do it?

Anywhere else I go I get the your at blame, its your fault, your a bad owner, huskies arnt bad, you need to train you dog...blah..blah...blah

These people dont know that huskies have a untrainable prey drive when at a older age so please dont go off saying its all my fault. Its not like I can be by the huskies side 100 percent of the time, because isnt that they point of a dog park to let them run free?

Also will they require the dog to be put down? 
Our city does have a small dog only park as well, why wasnt she there?


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## eliza (Jun 6, 2011)

i don't think you can really turn this around and put her at fault for using the same dog park as you, she shouldn't have had to go to a different dog park because her dog is small and honestly, if i was out with my dog and they told me that because my pup is tiny i should go somewhere else, i'd be quite offended. no one should have to worry about going to the dog park and having their dog being attacked while the owner isn't around to even witness it. i'm kind of curious as to why you weren't right there watching your dog? if i go anywhere, whether it be a park or simply outside my house, my eyes are on my dog the entire time. personally, i think you need to get a better handle on your situation.. especially if you intend on continuing to take your dogs out to public places. instead of focusing on it being "more her fault" or pushing the blame on reasons like "she shouldn't have been there" or "if it wasn't my dog, it could've been someone elses" you need to figure out a way to prevent something like this from *ever* happening again.


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## Stirb (Aug 15, 2011)

I dont know if I mentioned, but he ran ahead of me. I didnt just let him go and I went to read a book, it happened so quick, unless I was right by him I couldnt have stopped it because all it takes is one bite to that small dog. 

When you go to a dog park, your dog by your side 100 percent of the time? The 2 year old will not be out to the park anymore, or even be alive tomorrow if it goes down the way I think. But like I said why bring such a small dog that can be hurt from falling off a chair? 

I feel you are making me out as a bad owner when I am not, my dogs are well behaved at the house, listen and are trained, they are treated like a member of the family and have the best care they can get. This was a husky being a husky moment, not a dog being deadly.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

I think they put them down (yuck I hate that term) for people bites first offense-- I know here in SF they have a doggie court run by Animal Care and Control that will do something along the lines of mandating that your dog has to wear a muzzle when out in public which is better than death I guess. I have big dogs too-- and with my Giant schnauzer I always have to monitor her for her prey drive kicking in -- she is often triggered by sudden quick movements and I know her impulse is to chase and catch... It is always the Big dogs Fault (popular perception) in my experience...


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## eliza (Jun 6, 2011)

i never said you went to read a book? dogs run ahead of you, that happens.. but when it happens you have to be prepared for the consequences.. its an unfortunate situation all around, for both you and the other owner.

i never said my dog was by my side 100 percent of the time, but i did say i keep my eye on my dog - which i do. she is small, which means i do keep a closer eye on her because she could be injured, but she's not made of glass. she can keep up with the other dogs and have fun, just like yours can. why bring it to the park? the same reason you bring yours.. socialization, exercise, fun. this situation could've been a large dog attacking another one and injuring or killing it.. what would your argument be then? the other large one shouldn't have been there because it took up too much space? regardless, what i'm trying to say is although your opinion is that the smaller dog shouldn't have been there, you're not going to go to a dog park and be able to pick out what specific breeds you want there.. when you go, you're meeting all sorts of other dogs; large, small, obnoxious, shy, etc.

by no means am i making you out to be a bad owner, i'm telling you my opinion on the matter. you could be a great owner for all i know, but i personally find it ridiculous for the matter to be turned around on the other owner.. what did you want by posting this? my opinion on the matter, or for me to confirm what you think, which is this wasn't your fault and the woman with the yorkie is wrong.


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## Stirb (Aug 15, 2011)

as much as I hate it, even tho the husky is a great family member, I have a hard time trusting him since he did this, im afraid to have him out of his crate. He is always nice, but I just cant bring myself to let him out right now



eliza said:


> i never said you went to read a book? dogs run ahead of you, that happens.. but when it happens you have to be prepared for the consequences.. its an unfortunate situation all around, for both you and the other owner.
> 
> i never said my dog was by my side 100 percent of the time, but i did say i keep my eye on my dog - which i do. she is small, which means i do keep a closer eye on her because she could be injured, but she's not made of glass. she can keep up with the other dogs and have fun, just like yours can. why bring it to the park? the same reason you bring yours.. socialization, exercise, fun. this situation could've been a large dog attacking another one and injuring or killing it.. what would your argument be then? the other large one shouldn't have been there because it took up too much space? regardless, what i'm trying to say is although your opinion is that the smaller dog shouldn't have been there, you're not going to go to a dog park and be able to pick out what specific breeds you want there.. when you go, you're meeting all sorts of other dogs; large, small, obnoxious, shy, etc.
> 
> by no means am i making you out to be a bad owner, i'm telling you my opinion on the matter. you could be a great owner for all i know, but i personally find it ridiculous for the matter to be turned around on the other owner.. what did you want by posting this? my opinion on the matter, or for me to confirm what you think, which is this wasn't your fault and the woman with the yorkie is wrong.


Isn't that why we all ask questions? To confirm our thoughts?


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Why are you afraid to let him out of his crate? By your account he's not an aggressive dog, it was his prey drive that kicked in when he saw a very small animal. That doesn't make him a bad or dangerous dog, and he doesn't deserve to be confined to his crate.

As for the incident, I agree that the other owner has just as much right to be there as you, and you both should have been watching your dogs closely. Ideally you shouldn't let the dog out of your sight, and I'm not sure how big this dog park was that he disappeared to somewhere where you couldn't see or hear him and had no idea what other dogs were in the park....? Seems to me that it's common sense to not let him run up to smaller dogs, and to always keep an eye on him and to have a reliable enough recall that you can call him back if you need to.

That said, the other owner with the tiny dog should have been more careful too. I certainly wouldn't let my dogs run around in a dog park where there were very large high prey drive dogs also running around.

I think this is just a terrible accident, and if it happened the way you said that he disappeared out of sight for only a few seconds to somewhere where you couldn't see him, then it's really no one's fault. Or both people's fault.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Was the yorkie on a leash?

If this were the type of dog park that's fenced, with a big dog section and a small dog section, and the woman let her little yorkie run around in the big dog section, then I'd agree she's at fault. However, it sounds like this is a large unfenced park for dogs of all sizes, right? In that case you should have had your dog on a leash. I've owned northern breeds and I know first-hand about the prey drive and about the difficulty in training recall. If your dog won't come when you call him, every time, and you know there's a possibility -- even a slight one -- that he might chase and kill someone's small dog, then he should never be off-leash in an area where all sizes of dogs run and play.

I don't think your dog is a bad dog, not at all. Prey drive is a natural thing. But I don't think the woman is at fault here. She had just as much right to be at the park with her dog as you did. I don't know how much you know about small dogs, but they enjoy fresh air and need walks just as much as big dogs do.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

IMO your the reason most people hate dog parks. You obviously do not keep track of your dogs. you should npt be bringing your dogs there unless you solidly watch them the whole time. A dog park is not meant to let the dogs free and sit back and relax. that irresponsible. you are at fault for your dog killing some one elses beloved family member. Small or not, that dog deserves to be there as much as the next dog. Just because he is smal doesnt mean he shouldnt be allowed to run and play like any other dog. thats ignorant to say. A properly bred yourkie will nto break falling off a chair, they are reboost little working dogs. (No such thing as a teacup one, or maltipoo for that matter either)


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## RoughCollie (Mar 7, 2011)

I used to take my collie to an unfenced dog park. Dogs of all sizes were there, but most were pretty large dogs. There were always a couple of larger dogs who were leashed. In talking to the owners, I found out it was because they had high prey drives, and there were little dogs at the park. The vast majority of owners of little dogs kept their dogs leashed, too.


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## beverley (Oct 7, 2010)

if this was the first time something like this has happened, it should now have made you very aware of the prey drive that husky's have, although you should know that anyway.
we dont have dog parks over here, just open spaces where people walk their dogs. the only time branston goes off lead is in the local woods where its safe for him to do so, he has a really high prey drive and still wont learn his recall despite months & months of practice.
i think you have to take equal blame for the situation and never let him over the dog park again without a lead on.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Stirb said:


> I dont know if I mentioned, but he ran ahead of me. I didnt just let him go and I went to read a book, it happened so quick, unless I was right by him I couldnt have stopped it because all it takes is one bite to that small dog.


Sorry but I think you are at fault here. The small dog has as much right to be at the dog park as your big dog. You should have had control over your dog. I see big and small dogs at our dog park all the time. You shouldn't be reading a book at the dog park, you should be paying attention to your dog. 



Stirb said:


> When you go to a dog park, your dog by your side 100 percent of the time?


Not by our side, but within sight. Close enough where we have control. If you dog doesn't respond to voice commands in public than it didn't belong off leash. 



Stirb said:


> I feel you are making me out as a bad owner when I am not, my dogs are well behaved at the house, listen and are trained, they are treated like a member of the family and have the best care they can get. This was a husky being a husky moment, not a dog being deadly.


Dogs behave completely different at your home than they do in public. Huskies have a high prey drive. Part of being a husky owner is knowing this and being able to control your dog in public.


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## hamlin69 (May 12, 2011)

I remember when I was a kid my mom and I were walking her Shih Tzu. Someone was walking their dog(it was a doberman maybe?) and it barked at my mom..my moms shih tzu went insane and tried to kill the dog(no joke, actually tried to bite its throat). The doberman stood there in shock. Both parties apologized.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

A similar incident happened at my dog park. A retired racing Greyhound chased down and killed a small Maltese (?). Even though both owners were present and being watchful, there was nothing that could have stopped it from happening except prevention.

Now.. with that being said. You really need to control your dog. I know you have heard this a hundred thousand times by now, but honestly. Just put yourself in the other owners shoes for a second. YOUR dog gets attacked, injured and even killed by another dog. Wouldn't you be very distraught? You just lost a member of your family!

It will be up to the ACC to decide the fate of your dog. That is if it even went reported. You should not keep your dog in a crate! Crating is a management tool, not a lifelong banishment. Of course it is upsetting to realize the power and ferocity that your dog is capable of, but you really should be aware of this before you get a Northern breed. 

My big suggestion to you? Don't go to an off leash dog park anymore.


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## minihart (Feb 14, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Was the yorkie on a leash?
> 
> If this were the type of dog park that's fenced, with a big dog section and a small dog section, and the woman let her little yorkie run around in the big dog section, then I'd agree she's at fault. However, it sounds like this is a large unfenced park for dogs of all sizes, right? In that case you should have had your dog on a leash. I've owned northern breeds and I know first-hand about the prey drive and about the difficulty in training recall. If your dog won't come when you call him, every time, and you know there's a possibility -- even a slight one -- that he might chase and kill someone's small dog, then he should never be off-leash in an area where all sizes of dogs run and play.
> 
> I don't think your dog is a bad dog, not at all. Prey drive is a natural thing. But I don't think the woman is at fault here. She had just as much right to be at the park with her dog as you did. I don't know how much you know about small dogs, but they enjoy fresh air and need walks just as much as big dogs do.


I have to completely agree with you, Crantastic. 

And I just have to say this...how on EARTH do you not feel even slightly at fault for what happened?? I'm absolutely shocked. Every dog owner has a responsibility for their dog's actions, and you seem to have demonstrated no foresight or accountability for what happened. Yes, it was a terrible accident. But a dog was killed, and you seem to brush this fact off as if it's ludicrous to even THINK you should share the fault. 

It's your dog, it's your responsibility. Your dog may be "sweet around the house", but that really doesn't account for much. And it's a bit ridiculous that you now don't want to take him out of his crate. Grow up.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Some dogs just aren't meant to go to the dog park, unfortunately. Atlas and Loki both have high prey drives that kick in when they see a small dog running. Therefore, they are never off leash around larger dogs.

Before just jumping on the OP for being irresponsible, I'm surprised no one asked this question: Does the dog park you were at have a weight limit? If the city has a park for smaller dogs, then it stands to reason that there may be a weight limit at this park were larger dogs are running. 

IMO, it's small dog owners who think that their tiny dogs can "hang" with the big guys that make dog parks dangerous. When a small dog owner refuses the small dog park specifically made for their dog and decides that their tiny dog can handle the big guys... Well, if the small dog gets hurt or killed, then that's the owner's fault and no one else's.

Your dogs should never be out of your sight at the dog park, and you shouldn't be reading a book. However, a lot of this situation depends upon whether there's a weight limit or not. 

Also, check the rules of the dog park - most say "use at your own risk", because there is an inherent danger to ANY situation in which dogs are off leash. By those rules, your dog cannot be seized and euthanised, as anyone using the dog park has acknowledged that they are using it at their own risk.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, dogs should be within sight and voice at all times at the dog park. A dog with that strong of a prey drive (which doesn't make it a bad dog) should not go to the dog park, because like it or not people with small dogs have just as much of a right to be there as you do.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

It's not Husky, It's not Greyhounds, etc etc etc. It's large dog versus small prey size type dogs. Forget about fault and learn from the lesson being applied to your dog knowledge for the future handling of any large dog/breed. Obviously unless the Yorkie jumped into large dog's mouth to commit suicide it's the large dog/owners fault but it is an accident not done on purpose, so live and learn.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

saraid said:


> I was going to say the same thing. The dog parks around here actually prohibit dogs under 9 lbs from being in any part of the unleashed park. Yet there are constantly teacup dogs there, because the owners think they can hang with the other dogs. Even a 25 lb dog can hurt a 6 lb teacup!
> 
> Your dog hasn't changed. He had a reaction to small prey that was fatal. I would watch him closely around small animals and no more dog park. I would also have apologized to the owner of the small dog. Even if you couldn't stop it, your dog did kill another. The woman deserved an apology at the very least.


I kick people with teacup dogs out of my dog park. I don't care if I'm being mean, or being a bully. I am NOT taking the risk that one of my dogs kills another because people with teacup breeds think their dog is "tough". Guess what? No amount of toughness from a 9lb dog is going to save it if my 125 lb dog tries to go after it. My dogs aren't even dog aggressive, and I won't take the risk. If Atlas even steps on a 9lb dog, he will hurt it.

I really hate the whole "small dog people have every right to be there" statement, sometimes. By this logic, whenever someone with a small dog arrives at the dog park, I should have to leave just because my dogs are large and have a chance of hurting the small dog. This isn't fair to big dog people at all, and generally, larger dogs need WAY more exercise than a teacup Yorkie, for instance. 

What is boils down to is that *everyone* needs to be smart about the dog park. If you have a small dog, you go to the dog park and see a large group of big dogs running around and playing rough - _don't take your dog in_ and just assume everything will be ok. If you have a large dog who may target a smaller dog or has a high prey drive, _don't go to a dog park where small dogs are allowed._


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

BEWARE! PICTURES OF VICIOUS HUSKIES WITH UNTRAINABLE PREY DRIVES BRUTALLY SLAUGHTERING ANIMALS!!














































In short, prey drive is not a excuse.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

RBark said:


> In short, prey drive is not a excuse.


No, prey drive is a REASON his Husky attacked the Yorkie, in all likelihood. It's not an excuse, and now that the OP is aware of his dog's behavior and triggers, I certainly hope that he takes precautions to prevent another similar situation in the future.

Ignoring prey drive in an animal is even more harmful than using it as an excuse, IMO.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

There is no such thing as a "teacup breed," so please stop throwing that term around. So-called "teacup" dogs are bred by irresponsible breeders; that term is just a word they use to describe their undersized, badly-bred toy dogs. I'm sure that not all of the toy dogs who show up at your park are "teacups;" properly-sized yorkies and chihuahuas and the like are still quite small.

If the dog park does not have a weight or size limit, then yes, _all owners have the same right to bring their dogs there_. I don't think that a six-pound dog should be let loose to run with the big guys, because that's just dangerous. I don't think that a big dog with a high prey drive (or any dog with unreliable recall) should be let loose to run around where they could approach dogs of all sizes, either.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dmickle1 said:


> I really hate the whole "small dog people have every right to be there" statement, sometimes. By this logic, whenever someone with a small dog arrives at the dog park, I should have to leave just because my dogs are large and have a chance of hurting the small dog. This isn't fair to big dog people at all, and generally, larger dogs need WAY more exercise than a teacup Yorkie, for instance.


Sorry, don't buy this argument. Any dog can injure any other dog regardless of relative sizes. Many large dogs can be around small dogs safely. Not all dogs have the personality for the dog park, if you're so worried that your dog will hurt another dog that you "kick people out" of the dog park then your dog doesn't belong there with other dogs and you should wait or leave. I'm frankly astonished that you think you have the authority over other people to kick them out rather than waiting your turn or feel that you have more of a right to be there than they do. I find that incredibly selfish, myself.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

dmickle1 said:


> No, prey drive is a REASON his Husky attacked the Yorkie, in all likelihood. It's not an excuse, and now that the OP is aware of his dog's behavior and triggers, I certainly hope that he takes precautions to prevent another similar situation in the future.
> 
> Ignoring prey drive in an animal is even more harmful than using it as an excuse, IMO.


No, prey drive is not the "REASON" the husky attacked the yorkie. 

Being a poor trainer is the reason. Being a poor owner for bringing a dog who was not good with other animals to the dog park was the reason.

The dog that is no danger to others has more right to be in a dog park than a dog who might be a danger to others.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Sorry, don't buy this argument. Any dog can injure any other dog regardless of relative sizes. Many large dogs can be around small dogs safely. Not all dogs have the personality for the dog park, if you're so worried that your dog will hurt another dog that you "kick people out" of the dog park then your dog doesn't belong there with other dogs and you should wait or leave. I'm frankly astonished that you think you have the authority over other people to kick them out rather than waiting your turn or feel that you have more of a right to be there than they do. I find that incredibly selfish, myself.


It's not selfish when there's a weight limit and the people are there with dogs under the weight limit. It's called enforcing the rules, and it's for the safety of everyone involved. That's why the rules are there in the first place.

I'm not worried that my dogs will harm other dogs aggressively. I am rather worried that while playing frisbee, the smaller dog will get run over and be harmed. Which I've seen happen, twice. And it's not pretty. 

I do wait my turn, actually. If someone is there with a small dog, even a dog that is technically under the weight limit, I politely ask how long they're going to be, then walk around until they're done. However, I am *never* afforded this courtesy by people with small dogs - they just let their dogs run in with the larger ones like THEY have all the right in the world to be there. So yes, now, when people come to the park with dogs under the weight limit, I tell them that they are breaking the rules, that the rules are there for a reason, and that if they want to use the facilities, they can wait their turn, like everyone with big dogs has to do every day.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

dmickle1 said:


> It's not selfish when there's a weight limit and the people are there with dogs under the weight limit. It's called enforcing the rules, and it's for the safety of everyone involved. That's why the rules are there in the first place.
> 
> I'm not worried that my dogs will harm other dogs aggressively. I am rather worried that while playing frisbee, the smaller dog will get run over and be harmed. Which I've seen happen, twice. And it's not pretty.
> 
> I do wait my turn, actually. If someone is there with a small dog, even a dog that is technically under the weight limit, I politely ask how long they're going to be, then walk around until they're done. However, I am *never* afforded this courtesy by people with small dogs - they just let their dogs run in with the larger ones like THEY have all the right in the world to be there. So yes, now, when people come to the park with dogs under the weight limit, I tell them that they are breaking the rules, that the rules are there for a reason, and that if they want to use the facilities, they can wait their turn, like everyone with big dogs has to do every day.


You're talking about stuff like being trampled. This guy's dog targetted and killed a dog. It's a invalid comparison.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

RBark said:


> No, prey drive is not the "REASON" the husky attacked the yorkie.
> 
> Being a poor trainer is the reason. Being a poor owner for bringing a dog who was not good with other animals to the dog park was the reason.
> 
> The dog that is no danger to others has more right to be in a dog park than a dog who might be a danger to others.


The OP specifically stated the Husky has been good with other animals, including other small dogs, in his original post. 

Prey drive is indeed the reason the dog was inclined to attack the Yorkie. Being irresponsible for reading at the dog park has a part to play, as well, but the OP had NO reason to believe that his dog would attack another when he entered the dog park that day. How does that make him a bad owner?



RBark said:


> You're talking about stuff like being trampled. This guy's dog targetted and killed a dog. It's a invalid comparison.


The point is that, either way, smaller dogs are at risk when playing in a group of larger ones. Which is why there are weight limits in place, as well as rules about age, at most dog parks.


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

I couldn't agree more dmickle1. I have a medium sized sighthound with a pretty high prey drive. When he sees small dogs running he does go after them, though he just knocks them down when he catches up to them; he doesn't actually bite down or try to hurt them. But it's still something I'm concerned about. I feel bad, but the dog park I go to has an area for little dogs (under 25 lbs) and big dogs, and nobody ever uses the small dog area. Unfortunately it's not actually a _rule_ that small dogs must use the small dog areas at most parks here, so no one ever uses them. I don't want my dog to hurt anyone, but I also don't want my dog to never be able to go to the dog park simply because people don't use the designated small dog area. 

I hate when someone brings in a tiny little dog and says, "he's ok with big dogs, he has a lab at home he plays fine with!" Your lab and little dog may get along great, but that doesn't mean he'll be safe around large unfamiliar dogs. And it's not even always even about prey drive; I've seen little dogs get hurt because they were trampled by huge dogs who simply didn't notice them as they were playing.

I've started bringing a racing-style basket muzzle with me every time I go to the park, just in case there is a little dog in the big dog area. He's been better about leaving the smaller guys alone lately (maybe he's starting to outgrow it a bit), but I still don't totally trust him, so I need to take precaution since most small dog owners refuse to use the appropriate part of the park. A newer park closer to me is opening soon; their rules just came out and I was really hoping they had a mandatory "small dogs in the small dog area" rule, but unfortunately they didn't. I'm still hoping people will make more use of the small dog park here than they tend to at the other parks, but I'm not really holding my breath. The small dogs will have a full acre at the new park, so there is no excuse not to use it!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dmickle1 said:


> It's not selfish when there's a weight limit and the people are there with dogs under the weight limit. It's called enforcing the rules, and it's for the safety of everyone involved. That's why the rules are there in the first place.
> 
> I'm not worried that my dogs will harm other dogs aggressively. I am rather worried that while playing frisbee, the smaller dog will get run over and be harmed. Which I've seen happen, twice. And it's not pretty.
> 
> I do wait my turn, actually. If someone is there with a small dog, even a dog that is technically under the weight limit, I politely ask how long they're going to be, then walk around until they're done. However, I am *never* afforded this courtesy by people with small dogs - they just let their dogs run in with the larger ones like THEY have all the right in the world to be there. So yes, now, when people come to the park with dogs under the weight limit, I tell them that they are breaking the rules, that the rules are there for a reason, and that if they want to use the facilities, they can wait their turn, like everyone with big dogs has to do every day.


Ah, I didn't realize your park had a weight limit - but either you care about the weight limit or you don't. I guess I'm confused because your earlier statement that you kick people with small dogs out of the dog park seems to conflict with your statement now that you wait your turn. *shrug*


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Nowhere did he say he was "reading a book". He said it was not as if he had just gone off and read a book. He did say there was another dog park for small dogs which is where the small dog should have been. Not all dog parks are absolutely flat with no bushes or trees so the dog could have easily been out of sight for just the few seconds it took to grab the other dog. He certainly should have apologized to the owner of the small dog and not tried to make it their fault, his dog did kill their dog even though he probably could not have prevented it except by not being there.

That is the big problem with dog parks, even though his dog had never done this before, he should never take the dog to the dog park again now that he knows his dog is capable of going after another dog. He defintely should not be confining the dog to a crate in his own home, it is not as if the dog has turned into a "killer" and is going to attack everything and everyone.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Ah, I didn't realize your park had a weight limit - but either you care about the weight limit or you don't. I guess I'm confused because your earlier statement that you kick people with small dogs out of the dog park seems to conflict with your statement now that you wait your turn. *shrug*


I blatantly kick people out who have dogs under 15 lbs (the weight limit) or people with puppies under 9 months, which aren't allowed. I was very nice and patient with these people for a long time, and it ended up biting me in the butt, so I no longer have patience for rule breakers. 

With other people, who have 20 lb terriers or such, I tell them that my dogs are bad with small dogs and that they can enter at their own risk. If they complain, I explain to them that I spend several hours a week waiting for people with small dogs to get done using the dog park, and that while the facilities are public, that doesn't mean that we can all use them at the same time. 

I've never run into a big dog person that will just charge into a dog park regardless of whether there are small dogs playing in there or not. I have met countless small dog people who just let their dogs into a group of 80 lb dogs who are playing rough. It really gets on my nerves sometimes. I don't want to see ANY dog hurt, ever, and it really sucks when people are irresponsible or just not smart about the way in which they use the dog park.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kyllobernese said:


> Not all dog parks are absolutely flat with no bushes or trees so the dog could have easily been out of sight for just the few seconds it took to grab the other dog.


I'm sorry, but my dog park is heavily wooded and Pip is NEVER out of my sight. My other two dogs don't stick as close or have his stellar recall and they do NOT go to the dog park, I find other ways to exercise them. Every dog does not have a right to go to the park just because it exists and needs exercise, nor is the dog park the place to let your dog run willy nilly all over the place doing whatever it likes.



dmickle1 said:


> With other people, who have 20 lb terriers or such, I tell them that my dogs are bad with small dogs and that they can enter at their own risk.


Dogs who are bad with other dogs shouldn't be at a dog park at all, IMO. And I'm saying this as the owner of a dog who LOVES the dog park but sometimes bullies other dogs, so she can't go. I just think this is so rude.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> Dogs who are bad with other dogs shouldn't be at a dog park at all, IMO. I just think this is so rude.


And that's the most important point.

I just *walk in without a care* when I see little dogs at play. Because my huskies do not kill little dogs. And because all of my dogs, regardless of size, will stop and turn instantly if I call them.


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## runner (Jul 13, 2011)

There seems to be a lot of big dogs vs little dogs replies so I have a question, is there a weight limit that deifines big vs little? We have a 9mo. scwt who weighs about 30 lbs. We take her to the dog park, she has lots of energy to burn and runs around with the other dogs with no problem but I don't think there were any BIG dogs or prey motovated dogs there. We did have a lab mix who was 80lbs that, I consider is a big dog.


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

> hard to ask it some where else because more people dont understand huskies or this situation and just go off ranting about how its my fault and the dog is bad....well here it goes


I'm not sure what you want us to say to you? I have high-prey Greyhounds and pit mix right now, but am a former Malamute person. I TOTALLY understand high-prey dogs. Unfortunately since you were not watching your dog, you don't know what happened. Did he experience Predatory Drift (i.e., innocent play turned into prey drive?) or did he start playing rough right away, and accidentally trampled the malti-poo, breaking her back? *How come you weren't monitoring your dog?*

-If the park was split into two areas (one for big dogs, one for small dogs) and the Maltipoo was on the Big Dog side, then the Maltipoo's owner has some responsibility in the matter because she was on the wrong side. But STILL. You know you have high-prey huskies... if you see a teacup sized dog there, why didn't you leash up your dogs and leave?? Why did you put the Maltipoo at risk??

-If the park is open to breeds of all sizes and shapes, then... dude. *You need to stop being so defensive and step up to the plate. Your dog got out of control, you weren't there to witness it, and another dog died because you were not paying attention. * 



> When you go to a dog park, your dog by your side 100 percent of the time?


ABSOLUTELY. I follow my dogs around like white on rice. They are never more than 10 feet away from me. I watch how they interact with other dogs, how other dogs interact with them, watch when they go to the bathroom to pick up, and put the kabash on any bad behaviors before they can escalate. I can't STAND IT when people sit on the benches to read or play on their cell phones. *Just because it's a dog park does NOT mean it's a free-for-all!!*



> And I just have to say this...how on EARTH do you not feel even slightly at fault for what happened?? I'm absolutely shocked. Every dog owner has a responsibility for their dog's actions, and you seem to have demonstrated no foresight or accountability for what happened. Yes, it was a terrible accident. But a dog was killed, and you seem to brush this fact off as if it's ludicrous to even THINK you should share the fault.
> 
> It's your dog, it's your responsibility. Your dog may be "sweet around the house", but that really doesn't account for much. And it's a bit ridiculous that you now don't want to take him out of his crate. Grow up.


I totally agree!! My advice to the OP: Stop trying to put the blame somewhere else. IT'S YOUR FAULT. I would send the Maltipoo's owner a card AND flowers, offer to cover the cost of a new dog, and apologize PROFUSELY for my inattentiveness which caused the death of her dog. And if I ever brought my dog to the dog park again, I would NOT enter if I saw small dogs in there, and I would supervise the heck out of him while he mingled with others. Better yet, I'd avoid the dog park all together.


Jen


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Dogs who are bad with other dogs shouldn't be at a dog park at all, IMO. I just think this is so rude.


But my dogs aren't actually BAD with other dogs, I just say that in order to impress upon people with small dogs that it's not a good idea to enter the facility at the moment. 

It's just that a 110 lb and a 125 lb dog chasing after a frisbee have a significant chance of hurting a small dog in their path. In fact, they HAVE hurt a small dog in their path, rather severely. A gentleman with an Italian Greyhound decided to let his dog into the park while a group of four big dogs was playing fetch. The IG ran right into Atlas and another dog's path and ended up with three broken legs. Whose fault is that? Answer - the guy who owned the IG who couldn't wait until a more appropriate time to use the dog park. 

I have EVERY right to use that facility. I pay rent there, too. I shouldn't always have to be the one to leave because other people can't wait their turn in order to ensure a safe dog park environment for everyone involved.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree with sassafras. There are a lot of dogs who are over 20lbs but still considered "small" next to yours. If your dogs are bad with all of those dogs, then your dogs shouldn't be at the park. Dog parks aren't designed for one owner to exercise their dogs while everyone else waits their turn outside.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

jenz said:


> I totally agree!! My advice to the OP: Stop trying to put the blame somewhere else. IT'S YOUR FAULT. I would send the Maltipoo's owner a card AND flowers, offer to cover the cost of a new dog, and apologize PROFUSELY for my inattentiveness which caused the death of her dog. And if I ever brought my dog to the dog park again, I would NOT enter if I saw small dogs in there, and I would supervise the heck out of him while he mingled with others. Better yet, I'd avoid the dog park all together.
> 
> 
> Jen


It was a Yorkie, not a Maltipoo. Also, there's a facility in the OPs city for small dogs, which the owner of the Yorkie declined to use. Also, everyone uses the dog park AT THEIR OWN RISK. Therefore, when you take your dog in there, you accept the fact that something may happen to it. While I agree that apologizing profusely is in order, as well as never taking the Husky to another dog park, I don't think the OP is at all responsible for the cost of a new dog.



Crantastic said:


> I agree with sassafras. There are a lot of dogs who are over 20lbs but still considered "small" next to yours. If your dogs are bad with all of those dogs, then your dogs shouldn't be at the park. Dog parks aren't designed for one owner to exercise their dogs while everyone else waits their turn outside.


I think I pretty much responded to this in the post above yours.


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

runner said:


> There seems to be a lot of big dogs vs little dogs replies so I have a question, is there a weight limit that deifines big vs little? We have a 9mo. scwt who weighs about 30 lbs. We take her to the dog park, she has lots of energy to burn and runs around with the other dogs with no problem but I don't think there were any BIG dogs or prey motovated dogs there. We did have a lab mix who was 80lbs that, I consider is a big dog.


I can't speak about everyone's parks, but at most of the parks near me, the small dog areas are for dogs 25 lbs. and under, and the big dog areas are for dogs over 25 lbs. Of course that's just how the parks separate them.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dmickle1 said:


> But my dogs aren't actually BAD with other dogs, I just say that in order to impress upon people with small dogs that it's not a good idea to enter the facility at the moment.


So you lie to get your way. :/



> I have EVERY right to use that facility. I pay rent there, too. I shouldn't always have to be the one to leave because other people can't wait their turn in order to ensure a safe dog park environment for everyone involved.


A safe environment shouldn't hinge on people being there one at a time. Honestly if someone told me their dogs weren't good with other dogs, so come in at my own risk - I'd be reporting them to the apartment management.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Dogs that are not 100% perfect with ALL DOGS REGARDLESS OF SIZE should not be at dog parks.

Owners who are inattentive enough to throw a Frisbee in the path a small dog is playing SHOULD NOT BE AT A DOG PARK OR PLAYING FRISBEE THERE.

Owners that let their dog out of sight should not be at a dog park.

What OTHER PEOPLE do does not matter. YOU can avoid these things, so you should do it.

It honestly stuns me people start with... "My dog is great at the dog park, but.... *insert why he is not great at the dog park* so other people should deal with it!"

What.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> I can't speak about everyone's parks, but at most of the parks near me, the small dog areas are for dogs 25 lbs. and under, and the big dog areas are for dogs over 25 lbs. Of course that's just how the parks separate them.


Our park has a small dog/puppy area but there's no specific cut off point in weight. But this area is VERY small compared to the rest of the park. There's no weight limit on the rest of the park. OP's park could very well have been like this. Just because there's a small dog area doesn't mean the rest of the park is off limits.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Porphyria said:


> I can't speak about everyone's parks, but at most of the parks near me, the small dog areas are for dogs 25 lbs. and under, and the big dog areas are for dogs over 25 lbs.


Yup, that's the way it is around here, too, except for at my apartment, where the cutoff is 15 lbs. 

Myself and a few other renters with large dogs proposed to our management office that while regular hours throughout the day are a "free for all", that there are two specific hours every day with weight limits. For instance, between 4:00-5:00 could be "small dog hours", where only dogs who are 30 lbs and under can play. Then 5:00-6:00 could be for "large dogs", where dogs 60 lbs and over can play. Obviously the hours would need to be arranged to be convenient for most renters, but lots of us big dog owners at this building aren't able to use the facilities as often as we'd like, and some very small dog owners aren't, either. I think those rules would help everyone out.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Since the incident with the Greyhound/Maltese at my park, they have expanded and built a bigger area for 'small' dogs (under 25 pounds). It is now mandatory that any dog under the weight limit use the small dog area and they are not permitted in the large dog area. 

Is it completely fair? I don't know. But it keeps everyone safe and avoids a lot of unnecessary bickering. 

Follow the rules and use common sense.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

sassafras said:


> So you lie to get your way. :/
> 
> 
> 
> A safe environment shouldn't hinge on people being there one at a time. Honestly if someone told me their dogs weren't good with other dogs, so come in at my own risk - I'd be reporting them to the apartment management.


I wait my turn to use the facility when other people tell me that their dogs can't play with others. Why is it not fair for me to ask other people to wait theirs?


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

> It was a Yorkie, not a Maltipoo. Also, there's a facility in the OPs city for small dogs, which the owner of the Yorkie declined to use. Also, everyone uses the dog park AT THEIR OWN RISK. Therefore, when you take your dog in there, you accept the fact that something may happen to it. While I agree that apologizing profusely is in order, as well as never taking the Husky to another dog park, I don't think the OP is at all responsible for the cost of a new dog.


Whoops, I thought the first post said Malti-poo, sorry. 

I totally agree with your experiences, Dmickle. Our dog park has two sides- one for large dogs, one for dogs under 20 lbs. Because the small dog section is rarely used, people bring their little dogs to the big dog side, ugh. I've said things to them, but they don't care. The big dogs get running in large packs, and the little dogs get trampled, defensive, and snarly. I can't believe it but the owners don't seem to care? I make a few comments... "Oh, are you sure he's okay on the big dog side?" "Are you afraid he'll get stepped on?" but they never seem to care... sigh. A few of the small dogs (Bostons, etc) can hold their own, but the chihuahua mix types just get really freaked out by the big dogs, poor things.

Jen


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

Being the owner of a Maltese, I take it very seriously when we are around large dogs. Not because I think large dogs are vicious, in fact, I love them-however I also understand that one bite could end my dogs life. It doesn't even have to be an aggressive bite-it could be a playful bite. I find it irresponsible for a small dog owner to allow their little dog to run around with large-unknown dogs. I also find it irresponsible to use the 'large' dog park section of the park if there is a small one. If you take your little dog to an area where there are large dogs running around-that you don't know-it is your fault if something happens to that little dog. People try this naive 'oh he likes large dogs,' or 'oh he won't hurt the large dogs! It's cute when he barks at them' crap and it's not funny, it's not cute, it's dangerous. But that's just my opinion on it.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

RBark said:


> Dogs that are not 100% perfect with ALL DOGS REGARDLESS OF SIZE should not be at dog parks.
> 
> Owners who are inattentive enough to throw a Frisbee in the path a small dog is playing SHOULD NOT BE AT A DOG PARK OR PLAYING FRISBEE THERE.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry, I should use my jedi mind powers to predict the running trajectory of any small dog in the area? I'm sorry, that's the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. Dogs tend to RUN at dog parks, often in ways that people cannot predict. If a small dog runs in front of my fast moving large dog, there's nothing I can do about it besides cross my fingers that the small dog ends up ok. 

My dogs are not aggressive towards other small dogs. It is simply their size and their style of play (running after frisbees) that may put a small dog who isn't being monitored in danger. 99% of the time, it's not a problem. That 1% of the time, when the small dog owner stops watching their dog for a second and it wanders into a big dog's path... Well, large vet bills are usually the result. As such, I'd like to avoid this happening. Because once again, I hate to see ANY dog get hurt.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

dmickle1 said:


> I'm sorry, I should use my jedi mind powers to predict the running trajectory of any small dog in the area? I'm sorry, that's the most ridiculous thing I've read all day. Dogs tend to RUN at dog parks, often in ways that people cannot predict. If a small dog runs in front of my fast moving large dog, there's nothing I can do about it besides cross my fingers that the small dog ends up ok.
> 
> My dogs are not aggressive towards other small dogs. It is simply their size and their style of play (running after frisbees) that may put a small dog who isn't being monitored in danger. 99% of the time, it's not a problem. That 1% of the time, when the small dog owner stops watching their dog for a second and it wanders into a big dog's path... Well, large vet bills are usually the result. As such, I'd like to avoid this happening. Because once again, I hate to see ANY dog get hurt.


I used to play fetch with my dogs at the dog park, and never ran into this issue. Yes it's unpredictable, that's why you find a very clear area and don't toss the ball so far that a dog might run into the path. It's not rocket science here, balls go from point A to point B with no portals or circus tricks involved. If there is a dog near Point A and Point B, don't toss it.

Alternatively, don't toss at all and just wait for the small dog to leave before you play fetch. Simple.

You are blaming everyone except yourself for the issues your dog might pose, and throwing your hands up like you're some helpless victim who is stuck in a impossible situation. Seriously.

When I see Kobe (a 90 pound Malamute) bouncing and playing rough near a little dog, you know what I do? I'll tell you what I DONT do first. I DONT go to the little dog owner and ask them to wait outside.

What I DO, however, is say "Kobe, here" and move to a different area of the dog park, and release him again. SIMPLE.

And lastly, you need to train a mid-fetch recall if you want to play fetch at the dog park safely. You can see the little dog coming much more easily than your dog, so there's no excuse for you being unable to recall your dog.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

It's not wise to take a tiny dog in with big dogs at the dog park. That said, if your dog is high prey drive, you are not able to sufficiently supervise him and control him, he does not belong in a dog park. It is your responsibility if he killed another dog. How is it that you didn't even see the incident? I seldom go to dog parks but when I do, my eyes are constantly on my dog.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

RBark said:


> I used to play fetch with my dogs at the dog park, and never ran into this issue. Yes it's unpredictable, that's why you find a very clear area and don't toss the ball so far that a dog might run into the path. It's not rocket science here, balls go from point A to point B with no portals or circus tricks involved. If there is a dog near Point A and Point B, don't toss it.
> 
> Alternatively, don't toss at all and just wait for the small dog to leave before you play fetch. Simple.
> 
> ...


Perhaps you missed it, but the dog park is at my apartment building and is therefore around 70 feet wide and 70 feet long. It's not large enough to move to another area of the park. Which is why everyone has to take turns. Also, I PAY for the right to use the dog park, another difference between it and a truly public facility. In fact, I pay $80 in dog fees per month, which includes the right to use the dog park. I pay more per month than anyone else at my apartment complex, because the fees are based on size of the dog (weird, I know). 50 lbs and below is $20 per month. 50-100 lbs is $30 per month. 100 lbs and over... $40 per month. So I pay more money than anyone else in my complex to use the facilities and I have every right to enforce the rules there. 

The problem is patience. I wait my turn, and other people don't think they should have to wait theirs. 

The "issues" my dogs pose at the dog park are size-related. No one is to blame for that, except for when people are irresponsible. If I let my large dogs into a group of tiny dogs that were playing, it would be my fault for creating a situation in which an accident could occur. Likewise, when a small dog owner lets their tiny dog into a park where lots of large dogs are playing fetch, it is their fault for not thinking about the well-being of their dog. My dogs are always supervised, have excellent recalls and good manners. 

It's all being being smart, knowing the rules, being responsible and sometimes being patient. There have been plenty of days when I haven't used the park because every time I've walked by, small dogs have been in there.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

I don't have much to say on this topic.

I have a husky. She's got a pretty intense prey-drive. I don't leave her alone with our two Maltese as I'm still training her and I never will leave her alone even when she is trained. I don't leave her off-leash because she will chase anything that moves and her recall needs work (even then when it is better I won't leave her off-leash). That being said - I won't take her to a dog park. I also understand that things -do- happen and I am a firm believer in Murphy's Law - "Anything that can go wrong will go wrong". So I work my hardest to keep my chances with her of that to a minimum.

This is just my opinion.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dmickle1 said:


> I kick people with teacup dogs out of my dog park. I don't care if I'm being mean, or being a bully. [/I]


You "kick" them out? Do you own the park? Are you the "park police"?


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> You "kick" them out? Do you own the park? Are you the "park police"?


I pay to use the facility (and I pay quite a bit, as a matter of fact), as I've explained in my previous posts. Also, there's a weight limit and anyone under the weight limit is breaking the rules. As I've also explained in my previous posts.

I simply tell them that they are breaking the rules, the rules are there for a reason, and if they have an issue with the rules, they should take it up with the apartment management.

ETA: As all of this information is in my previous posts, why are we bringing this up again? Sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing, to me.


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

+1 for Rbark

There is a free dog park for dogs of all sizes a few miles from where I live that I've only been to twice. Once when there were no dogs inside and once when there were only two small dogs. I haven't bothered to go back there because I don't want to drive farther to a park I might not be able to go in if there are large dogs there. There is a dog park closer to where I live that has a small area for small dogs 20lbs & under and then there is a large area for dogs over 20lbs. I go to that one maybe once a week. I generally only go at times when there are less than 5 dogs because even 20lb dogs are still twice the size of my 8lb pup. I watch her closely as she greets all the people and maybe sniffs a few doggy butts. She has great recall and I'm always nearby her anyway for her safety. I think people that take their small dogs to the large dog section are crazy but there have been times when people have brought their large dogs into the small dog section on days when there were never any big dogs for their's to play with! And sure enough when someone brought their bulldog mix into the little dog section it headed straight for my pup in an aggressive manner. And some idiot mother even had her toddler wandering around nearby trying to play with all the dogs while the bulldog was charging & growling at my pup. I was right by her side and scooped her into my arms before it could bite her, told the kid to move and I just left. I probably should have scolded both the idiot large dog owner & the idiot mother (toddlers do not belong at dog parks, especially if you are going to let them wander around, chasing after dogs!) but didn't because I've discovered that stupid people will continue to be stupid no matter what you say. People should read the parks rules and follow them. Unfortunately, there are always jerks with overblown egos and a profound sense of entitlement so you have to be on your guard and watch your dogs like a hawk and decide when/if it is worth going inside the park. Mostly prefer to drive 45 minutes away to state recreation areas to walk my dog on leash down trails through the woods. When we occasionally come across large dogs off leash on the trails, I just lead my pup to the side while the big dog passes and hope the large dog owners come to leash their dog (as they are actually supposed to). And now I'm happy that Petco is offering free dog socials every Saturday that I now take my pup to. They require that everyone bring vaccination records to ensure that their dogs are up to date and they separate the dogs by size. Small dogs get to play for an hour starting at 10:30am and bigger dogs get to play starting at 11:30. Sometime dog parks are the worst place to take your dog so you just have to look around for other options because you might be able to control yours and your dog's actions but you can't control others.

These are the rules for the dog park I've used the most:







If only people would obey the rules and weight limit.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I pay to use the facility (and I pay quite a bit, as a matter of fact), as I've explained in my previous posts. Also, there's a weight limit and anyone under the weight limit is breaking the rules. As I've also explained in my previous posts.


Well I follow the same rules while driving on roads that I pay tax for, whenever I see a Rolls Royce or Cadillac or similarly priced very expensive cars I always pull over and let them pass as they in all probability pay more taxes than I do. I wasn't sure it worked that way in dog parks too.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Well I follow the same rules while driving on roads that I pay tax for, whenever I see a Rolls Royce or Cadillac or similarly priced very expensive cars I always pull over and let them pass as they in all probability pay more taxes than I do. I wasn't sure it worked that way in dog parks too.


Let's compare apples and oranges, shall we? Yet again, we shall argue for the sake of arguing? I drive an expensive BMW and I don't in any way expect anyone to treat me different than any other driver on the road. Your argument would be more akin to an argument about expensive "pure bred" dogs having access to the dog park over "mixed breeds" because they cost more money. It has NOTHING to do with the size of a dog in question, which is what we've been discussing this whole thread. 

But to follow along with your argument for the heck of it: On the road, there's a thing called right of way. The first person to get to the intersection at a four way stop gets to go through the intersection first, regardless of how much their car cost. If you disobey the rules and cause an accident, for instance if you're speeding, YOU are at fault because YOU are breaking the rules. 

At the dog park, if you bring your 10 lb dog into the park and it gets hurt, YOU are at fault because YOU are breaking the rules. 

However, instead of seeing a 10 lb dog accidentally get hurt, I'd rather warn them of the rules in place so that they can leave with their dog unharmed.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dmickle1 said:


> I wait my turn to use the facility when other people tell me that their dogs can't play with others. Why is it not fair for me to ask other people to wait theirs?


You don't ask them to wait their turn, you (by your own description) lie and say your dogs aren't good with small dogs and they can enter at their own risk!


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

sassafras said:


> You don't ask them to wait their turn, you (by your own description) lie and say your dogs aren't good with small dogs and they can enter at their own risk!


Goodness gracious, let's argue some more for the sake of arguing. 

In my experience, if I say "hey, can you wait for five minutes", the small dog owners say "no" and simply let their dogs into the park. I had that happen many times. Then I am simply forced to leave. Saying that my dogs aren't good with small dogs isn't a lie. They are NOT _aggressive _towards small dogs. That doesn't mean that they can't accidentally hurt them while playing. 

By saying "my dogs aren't good with small dogs", I imply that they NEED to wait their turn. If they continue to enter the park because their dogs are "tough" and can handle the big guys, I tell them that they can enter at their own risk. Which should go without saying, as ALL dog parks are "enter at your own risk" facilities.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

The analogy I'd use is owning a big dog is like driving a vehicle while owning a small dog is like being a pedestrian. As a pedestrian you are at danger of injury or death so it is in your interest to be careful and safe. As a driver you are in control of something very large and dangerous and need to be responsible with it. To some degree, when driving a car you need to _anticipate_ that someone is going to do something stupid. If the pedestrian performs an illegal action (jaywalking for example) and gets hit by a car, the driver may still be considered at fault if he or she was driving negligently. 

If your large dog attacks and kills a small dog, I don't think there is an excuse, even if the small dog was out of place. If your dog is capable of killing another dog, it is _your_ responsibility to ensure that doesn't happen. Even if the small dog doesn't belong at the dog park.


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## Sendiulino (Jun 20, 2011)

The fact that you didn't see it happen is what concerns me. So you (the OP) weren't paying attention to your dog... a dog park isn't a babysitting ground for you to take the dog and then space out for an hour. 

Every person there must be attentive to their dogs, and as much in-control of their own dog as they can possibly be.

Where does the fault lie? I think both parties made poor judgment calls. Everyone loses.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dmickle1 said:


> Goodness gracious, let's argue some more for the sake of arguing.


I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, and I haven't projected anything on you that you haven't said yourself. I'm allowed to have my opinions about dog park behavior and discuss them. *shrug*



> In my experience, if I say "hey, can you wait for five minutes", the small dog owners say "no" and simply let their dogs into the park. I had that happen many times. Then I am simply forced to leave. Saying that my dogs aren't good with small dogs isn't a lie. They are NOT _aggressive _towards small dogs. That doesn't mean that they can't accidentally hurt them while playing.
> 
> By saying "my dogs aren't good with small dogs", I imply that they NEED to wait their turn. If they continue to enter the park because their dogs are "tough" and can handle the big guys, I tell them that they can enter at their own risk. Which should go without saying, as ALL dog parks are "enter at your own risk" facilities.


Then let them choose to accept the risk or not, like anyone else. Don't deceive them by implying that your dogs are aggressive with small dogs -- which, honestly, is what the vast majority of people who hear "my dog isn't good with small dogs" are going to think, although I think you already realize that.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, and I haven't projected anything on you that you haven't said yourself. I'm allowed to have my opinions about dog park behavior and discuss them. *shrug*
> 
> 
> 
> Then let them choose to accept the risk or not, like anyone else. Don't deceive them by implying that your dogs are aggressive with small dogs -- which, honestly, is what the vast majority of people who hear "my dog isn't good with small dogs" are going to think, although I think you already realize that.


The problem is that it's a risk that is unnecessary, that I'm unwilling to accept. My dog park is where I live. If my dogs trample another one and the other dog owner decides to make a big deal out of it, there's a possibility (not a high one, but it's still there) that I may be asked to leave the apartment complex. If the other dog owner lies, says my dogs are vicious, says their dog was really hurt, etc... They could get me into big trouble. All because they couldn't wait their turn, as I've waited for mine countless times. 

I'm not the only one who does this at my dog park... There is a group of us "large dog people" who frequently have to tell people their dogs "aren't good" with small dogs in order to be able to use the facility. Some of them actually aren't good with small dogs, but that's a whole 'nother story.

If the apartment would build another dog park so that there was a separation by weight, that would be the best thing for everyone. Unfortunately, until there's an incident in which a dog gets hurt or killed, I don't think the apartment management is willing to accept that kind of cost.


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

RBark said:


> And that's the most important point.
> 
> I just *walk in without a care* when I see little dogs at play. Because my huskies do not kill little dogs. And because all of my dogs, regardless of size, will stop and turn instantly if I call them.


Love this!!


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

dmickle1 said:


> In my experience, if I say "hey, can you wait for five minutes", the small dog owners say "no" and simply let their dogs into the park. I had that happen many times. Then I am simply forced to leave. Saying that my dogs aren't good with small dogs isn't a lie. They are NOT _aggressive _towards small dogs. That doesn't mean that they can't accidentally hurt them while playing.
> 
> By saying "my dogs aren't good with small dogs", I imply that they NEED to wait their turn. If they continue to enter the park because their dogs are "tough" and can handle the big guys, I tell them that they can enter at their own risk. Which should go without saying, as ALL dog parks are "enter at your own risk" facilities.


Um, that is EXACTLY what I would tell you. No way would I "wait my turn" at a public dog park (or any dog park for that matter) because YOUR dogs aren't good with small dogs. This isn't even REALLY a big dog/small dog problem. It's a "your dogs don't have the temperament or training to be going to the dog park" problem. If your dog "isn't good" with ANY type of dog, it does NOT belong at a dog park. Period. In case you missed it, there are MANY enormous dogs who are capable of playing quite safely with small dogs. So your dogs can't. That's not really a big deal until you start thinking that that fact entitles you to ask other people to waste their own valuable time WAITING with their friendly dogs for YOU to be done with your dogs who admittedly have some issues that are not only a result of them being larger, despite how you try to spin it.

Like many other people have mentioned, dog parks they aren't for everyone or every dog, and you don't have any special right to have a "turn". If you want your dog to exercise off leash without having to worry about other dogs that might be around, that's what a back yard is for. The point of a dog park is for dogs to play together, not for you to use it as your own personal backyard. I can tell you right now, if MY dog might possibly cause problems with another dog that came into the park, *I* would be the one leaving, because I don't believe the world revolves around me and my dog and I don't feel that I am "owed" any special time at the park that excludes other dogs and their owners.

Oh, and before you turn around and say "but they were breaking the rules!" remember that earlier in this thread you stated that you made people with "20 pound terriers" (Oh look! I think my dog happens to BE a 20 pound terrier!) take turns with you, despite the fact that they had every right to be there because they were over the 15 pound weight limit.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well, we're never going to agree, so that's that.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

And people like this is exactly why i hate dog parks!

Really unless your dog is a stella example of a dog behavior wise you do not need to be at the dog park.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

You're very good at talking in circles, dmickle.

"My dogs are good with other dogs but they trample them because I have no recall."

"I make small dog owners wait their turn because they are breaking the rules but I also don't allow small dogs that aren't breaking the rules to come in."

"I lie and cheat and deceive people to keep in control of the dog park."

"My dogs are well trained but I can't get them to do a recall to avoid accidents."

"Other people need to be responsible for their dog's size but it's not my fault that my dog is big."

"I pay more than everyone else so I have the biggest claim even though nothing actually works like that."

"I take up a large area of the dog park for fetch even when other people are there, thus preventing them from using most of the park."

"I have my dog running full blast in a small 70'x70' park as a hazard to all dogs, big or small, in the vinicity and I don't care."

"I'm not polite enough to cease playing fetch so other people can use the park too."

All of this are stuff you've said.

I know you have some circular logic to apply to each of them, or some way to blame everyone but yourself, or to excuse yourself from all of that. That does not change reality, unfortunately.


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## minihart (Feb 14, 2011)

I think everyone scared the OP away!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dmickle1 said:


> I pay to use the facility (and I pay quite a bit, as a matter of fact), as I've explained in my previous posts. Also, there's a weight limit and anyone under the weight limit is breaking the rules. As I've also explained in my previous posts.
> 
> I simply tell them that they are breaking the rules, the rules are there for a reason, and if they have an issue with the rules, they should take it up with the apartment management.
> 
> ETA: As all of this information is in my previous posts, why are we bringing this up again? Sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing, to me.


Well when I am reading through a long thread, I don't always read all the way to the end and then go back and try to find the posts I want to reply to. So shoot me. That said, I'm betting the other people you are bossing around also pay a pet deposit - part of which includes access to the fenced dog area (from the description, I'd call it a dog run, not a dog park) Just because you pay more because your dogs are bigger doesn't give you any more rights than they have.

To the entire thread - I say if your dog does damage, you are responsible. It doesn't matter if other people used bad judgement, you are responsible for the behavior of your own dog, and you are responsibe to know what he can and can't handle, and choose where you take him accordingly.

I took one of my dogs to a dog festival - huge crowds, lots of dogs. I took my attention off my *leashed* dog sitting at my side for a few minutes to watch a sheep herding demonstration. I felt him shift at my side and glanced down. A loose toddler (no parent obvious) had wandered over to my dog. He had one blue eye and one brown eye, and the child must have found the blue eye "interesting" because she had her index finger ON my dog's eyeball! I quicky moved him away from the finger and thanked him for being such a wonderful and tolerant dog, and shuddered at what might have just happened if he hadn't stuck with his training so well. Now the fact is, if he had been a tad less tolerant and responded to a finger in his eye by a snap or a bite instead of shifting uncomfortably, it doesn't matter that the parent was an obvious idiot who was allowing a two year old to poke fingers in the eyes of strange dogs. It would STILL be my responsibility if something unfortunate had happened. I would be liable. While there is of course a big difference legally between an injured or dead child and an injured or dead dog, the responsibility lies with the owner of the dog doing harm. Accidents happen. People do stupid things, but I would feel horrible if one of my dogs seriously injured or killed another dog. I would take full responsibility for vet bills or replacement, and I would be so sorry (and mean it). I wouldn't spend my time trying to place the blame on others.


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

minihart said:


> I think everyone scared the OP away!


I know. I want to know where in California they are at though. lol


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

It doesn't matter how good a dog's recall is, if he's running and playing and a smaller dog gets in the way, the other dog might get run over. I just don't see what recall has to do with a large dog accidentally running over a little dog. I've seen a number of small dogs get run over by danes and the like at the dog park. That is not the owner of the large dog's fault. It's also not the owner of the small dog's fault. It's just an accident (an accident that could be avoided if everyone followed the rules, which are in place for a very good reason).


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

Porphyria said:


> It doesn't matter how good a dog's recall is, if he's running and playing and a smaller dog gets in the way, the other dog might get run over. I just don't see what recall has to do with a large dog accidentally running over a little dog. I've seen a number of small dogs get run over by danes and the like at the dog park. That is not the owner of the large dog's fault. It's also not the owner of the small dog's fault. It's just an accident (an accident that could be avoided if everyone followed the rules, which are in place for a very good reason).


Hey my 68 pound malamute gets trampled! I don't think it matters the size of the dog, accidents do happen. Now if the big dog plays rough and kills the dog now that is the owners fault.


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## Sendiulino (Jun 20, 2011)

minihart said:


> I think everyone scared the OP away!


Yep people here are good at doing that


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

malamutelove said:


> Hey my 68 pound malamute gets trampled! I don't think it matters the size of the dog, accidents do happen. Now if the big dog plays rough and kills the dog now that is the owners fault.


But small dogs are much likelier to get hurt when they get trampled by big dogs. A large dog doesn't necessarily have to be aggressive or even rough in order to seriously hurt a small dog, it can be a complete accident. Which is why many dog parks do have rules regarding size, and why those rules should be obeyed. 

I think we're talking about two different things though...it sounds like you're referencing the OP; my post was more directed at the recent conversation in this thread about large dog areas and small dog areas at dog parks, and the issues at hand when people bring small dogs into the large dog area.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

I want you all to know:






Bella is displeased. >:[


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

So, some of you didn't like the car analogy that someone else gave. How's this one?

I've taken my nieces and nephews to parks/playgrounds more often than I can remember, going back years. There is a section for younger kids, there is a section for older kids. NOW, if my nieces (one in particular, who is a little spitfire) are bored with the "baby" area, she's allowed to go over to the big kids area. Sometimes that works. Sometimes the kids, big and small, play well together. BUT, sometimes, some of the big kids play too rough. 

In an ideal situation, the big kids' parents would say something like "Be a little more careful around the little ones" and I would say "Don't get so close to the big kids, they're playing too rough." And, all would work out. It's not always like that, and I have had to either take her back to the "baby" area, or leave the park and find somewhere else to play.

That's the thing with "public" areas. They're for the public. And, not every member of the "public" will compromise so that everyone can enjoy the area together. If it's not a safe place for your dogs, whatever the reason, whoever's at fault, the bottom line is, do the same as you would with your human children: "There are too many people who aren't playing nicely/following the rules/paying attention, so, we'll have to come back another time."

I know, it's not fair to have to leave or wait or come back later, but because it's PUBLIC, and usually not manned by the "dog police", you have to give and take.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

RBark said:


> You're very good at talking in circles, dmickle.
> 
> "My dogs are good with other dogs but they trample them because I have no recall."
> 
> ...


And you're very good at lying and misquoting me, RBark. 

The reality is that you've indicated by using quotations that I've directly said all of those things. The reality is also that I've said NONE of them. The reality is also that by misquoting me and misrepresenting my words, you look like a... well, I guess I won't start calling names. But I'm sure as heck insinuating them right now. 

Do us all a favor - don't misquote people on a forum. It's just stupid.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dmickle1 said:


> The problem is that it's a risk that is unnecessary, that I'm unwilling to accept. My dog park is where I live. If my dogs trample another one and the other dog owner decides to make a big deal out of it, there's a possibility (not a high one, but it's still there) that I may be asked to leave the apartment complex. If the other dog owner lies, says my dogs are vicious, says their dog was really hurt, etc... They could get me into big trouble. All because they couldn't wait their turn, as I've waited for mine countless times.
> 
> I'm not the only one who does this at my dog park... There is a group of us "large dog people" who frequently have to tell people their dogs "aren't good" with small dogs in order to be able to use the facility. Some of them actually aren't good with small dogs, but that's a whole 'nother story.
> 
> If the apartment would build another dog park so that there was a separation by weight, that would be the best thing for everyone. Unfortunately, until there's an incident in which a dog gets hurt or killed, I don't think the apartment management is willing to accept that kind of cost.


Actually, if you state that your dog is "not good" with other dogs, and something happens, you've just admitted that you knew your dog wasn't safe in that situation and did it anyway. Sort of like people need to give careful thought to "beward of guard dog" signs.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

doxiemommy said:


> I know, it's not fair to have to leave or wait or come back later, but because it's PUBLIC, and usually not manned by the "dog police", you have to give and take.


I actually think it's perfectly reasonable to have to wait for public facilities. If the public pool is too crowded, you have to wait. If the bathrooms are full, you have to wait. 

The problem is that people have forgotten patience. There have been many times that I've waited an hour to use the dog park at my apartments, because the small dog people got there first and therefore they have the right to stay there as long as they want. When I get there first, I have a right to use the facility. When someone's waiting, I do normally cut my play session short and just leave, so as to not keep them waiting forever.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Stirb said:


> Hi, well new to site, have a seroius question here, hard to ask it some where else because more people dont understand huskies or this situation and just go off ranting about how its my fault and the dog is bad....well here it goes
> 
> 
> At the dog park today with my 2 year old husky and 6 month old husky, went to go get the 2 year old to leave when this lady comes running saying he killed her teacup yorkie. Well the husky is a very sweet dog around the house and never shows sign of aggression or trys to harm the lil maltipoo. I didnt see the situation go down so I cant say what happened. But makes me wonder why is such a small small dog at a dog park here such large dogs as great danes go? Whos really at fault here? Im on the side she shouldnt have brought a small dog to the park, if it wasnt my dog, whos to say another high prey driven dog do it?
> ...


OP, if you're still listening, what you're doing here in victim blaming. The owner of the Yorkie is the victim here. Even if she was not supposed to be in the park (some parks have large and small sections, but no specific rules to each) it doesn't make it her fault her dog died. I don't think anyone anticipates their dog will die as a result. 

We are often punished even by doing the right thing. Some people do not follow rules and we have to anticipate that to some degree. We as owners are in charge of our dogs every step of the way. The fact that you had no idea any thing even happened until well after the fact and you had to be told tells me you didn't have eyes on your dog in a public place, which is never OK. I have a decent sized girl who is NOT OK with children. Children aren't allowed in some parks I've been too, but they sure were there any way. So we don't go to the dog park. Not exactly fair to us, but as an owner I need to protect my dog and protect others from my dog if need be. It would be reprehensible for me to take her to a park, have no recall or pay any attention to her, and a child be bitten as a result. 

As for the small dog stuff, I have a miniature Dachshund living with dogs ranging from 55 lbs to 70 lbs.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> Actually, if you state that your dog is "not good" with other dogs, and something happens, you've just admitted that you knew your dog wasn't safe in that situation and did it anyway. Sort of like people need to give careful thought to "beward of guard dog" signs.


"Not good" doesn't mean "aggressive". And again, dog parks are "enter at your own risk" facilities, however I like removing some of the risk by communicating to others that they should wait a few minutes and I will hurry up and leave. 

Honestly, you'd think most people with small dogs would, upon arriving at the park and seeing a group of 5-8 dogs all weighing up to 125 lbs playing fetch, simply turn around and come back later. Unfortunately, some of them are not that nice or not that smart.

ETA: As I've stated earlier in this thread, it's about being smart about using the facility. Check out the dogs who are playing before you just let your dog off the leash to fly into the group. Don't put your dogs in risky situations when you don't have to. 

I wouldn't let Loki and Atlas play in a group of 200 lb Mastiffs. Now, that would be a pretty rare sight, but the principle remains the same: assess the situation and its risk for your particular dog.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

May I ask why you haven't responded to my post dmickle1? I think I'm a good example of the type of person you inconvenience with your behavior regarding your dogs. Somehow I thought you might want to address that.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I like removing some of the risk by communicating to others that they should wait a few minutes and I will hurry up and leave.


You mean insinuating that your dogs are aggressive with small dogs.

Back home in Wisconsin, our kennel club has a LARGE fenced area that members can use to run their dogs. People are respectful and take turns. If somebody else is in there, the person inside will generally state whether or not their dog is good with other dogs. If the dog is good with other dogs, they're usually invited in to play as well (as long as the other dog is also ok with other dogs).

Strauss is ok playing in a group of 1-2 dogs, any size, but they must be puppies or bitches with the exception of small dogs. He plays nicely with any small breed dog, neutered, spayed, or intact.

Strauss is not a dog park dog. GSDs in general are not (and should not be) dog park dogs. They are not "pack" dogs like hounds, or even a lot of terriers. They are generally pretty solitary. That isn't to say they can't live together (mine do), but they are generally perfectly happy being without other canine companionship.

Strauss WOULD get into fights at the dog park. He wouldn't start them (he'd rather run around and pee on things), but there are many dogs at a DP that are, quite frankly, rude, and run up to other dogs head on...and Strauss doesn't like that.

At. All.

Mirada would do just fine at a dog park most likely, but I don't like them to begin with, and so I don't take her.

I recognize that Strauss is not good with large groups of other dogs, so I don't take him to a DP. I don't feel entitled to be at one, just because my dog needs exercise, and everybody else's dogs be damned!


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

dmickle1 said:


> ETA: As I've stated earlier in this thread, it's about being smart about using the facility. Check out the dogs who are playing before you just let your dog off the leash to fly into the group. Don't put your dogs in risky situations when you don't have to.


I agree with this.

And I will also say that everyone is responsible for themselves when using a public facility like a dog park.

For example, the fetch incident that resulted in the IG having 3 broken legs. A previous poster said she should have called her dog off before it trampled the IG. I agree, but I also say, the owner of the IG should have called his dog before it got trampled. In this situation there are many things that could have prevented this incident that both parties could have done. I say the blame does not solely lay on one or the other. Yes, the owner of the IG should have seen that that was not the best time to bring in his dog, and yes the owners of the big dogs should have stopped playing fetch when it was taking up a large part of the dog park and dangerous to the little dogs present. This is why I say you are responsible for yourselves and your own dogs. I say both parties are equally at fault.

I also agree with dmickle1 that if the small dogs are there first, they should be allowed to use the park as long as they want and the big dogs wanting to come in should have to wait their turn, and vise versa. If someone has a tiny dog and wants to bring it in when there are a bunch of large dogs present, I don't think that all the owners of the large dogs are required to leave. If everyone has equal rights to using the park, then nobody should be required to leave based on one person deciding to bring in a dog not suited to the play styles of those dogs already present. I think that is where the "at your own risk" comes in.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> May I ask why you haven't responded to my post dmickle1? I think I'm a good example of the type of person you inconvenience with your behavior regarding your dogs. Somehow I thought you might want to address that.


Must've missed it... Scrolling to find it now.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

To some extent I want to side with dmickle here due to the fact she ISN'T talking about a public dog park but a private dog run at her apartment complex that she pays to be able to use. Yes all the residents with dogs are paying to use it and her paying more for her large dogs doesn't give her MORE right to the run. But if she is respecting the small dog owners right to use the park and waiting for them to leave it isn't unreasonable for her to except the same from them. I'm assuming this isn't a HUGE complex and for the most part the dog owners have or will build a general aquantice and knowledge of the other dogs in the complex and should be able to interact or avoid as needed.

If this was a public dog park it would be different. The unless the small dogs were below the weight limit posted in the rules they have every right to come in and if dmickle's feels her dogs may not be safe around the smaller dog she should leave.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

> I kick people with teacup dogs out of my dog park. I don't care if I'm being mean, or being a bully.


Are you the park warden? if not you have no authority to kick people out, I don't give a damn if you pay to use or not.



> Atlas and Loki both have high prey drives that kick in when they see a small dog running. Therefore, they are never off leash around smaller dogs.





> I'm not worried that my dogs will harm other dogs aggressively. I am rather worried that while playing frisbee, the smaller dog will get run over and be harmed.


You contradict yourself right here, you admit your dogs shouldn't be off leash due to hight prey drive. 



> If someone is there with a small dog, even a dog that is technically under the weight limit, I politely ask how long they're going to be, then walk around until they're done.


And again you contradict yourself



> I blatantly kick people out who have dogs under 15 lbs (the weight limit) or people with puppies under 9 months, which aren't allowed. I was very nice and patient with these people for a long time, and it ended up biting me in the butt, so I no longer have patience for rule breakers.
> 
> With other people, who have 20 lb terriers or such, I tell them that my dogs are bad with small dogs and that they can enter at their own risk. If they complain, I explain to them that I spend several hours a week waiting for people with small dogs to get done using the dog park, and that while the facilities are public, that doesn't mean that we can all use them at the same time.


And again I ask are you the Warden or otherwise in charge of enforcment of the rules? If not you need to butt out and if you have a complaint you need to take it to the PROPER people.



> But my dogs aren't actually BAD with other dogs, I just say that in order to impress upon people with small dogs that it's not a good idea to enter the facility at the moment.


And again you contradict yourself.

Frankly you need to get your story straight, then people will quit calling you out on your inconsistancies.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> Um, that is EXACTLY what I would tell you. No way would I "wait my turn" at a public dog park (or any dog park for that matter) because YOUR dogs aren't good with small dogs. This isn't even REALLY a big dog/small dog problem. It's a "your dogs don't have the temperament or training to be going to the dog park" problem. If your dog "isn't good" with ANY type of dog, it does NOT belong at a dog park. Period. In case you missed it, there are MANY enormous dogs who are capable of playing quite safely with small dogs. So your dogs can't. That's not really a big deal until you start thinking that that fact entitles you to ask other people to waste their own valuable time WAITING with their friendly dogs for YOU to be done with your dogs who admittedly have some issues that are not only a result of them being larger, despite how you try to spin it.
> 
> Like many other people have mentioned, dog parks they aren't for everyone or every dog, and you don't have any special right to have a "turn". If you want your dog to exercise off leash without having to worry about other dogs that might be around, that's what a back yard is for. The point of a dog park is for dogs to play together, not for you to use it as your own personal backyard. I can tell you right now, if MY dog might possibly cause problems with another dog that came into the park, *I* would be the one leaving, because I don't believe the world revolves around me and my dog and I don't feel that I am "owed" any special time at the park that excludes other dogs and their owners.
> 
> Oh, and before you turn around and say "but they were breaking the rules!" remember that earlier in this thread you stated that you made people with "20 pound terriers" (Oh look! I think my dog happens to BE a 20 pound terrier!) take turns with you, despite the fact that they had every right to be there because they were over the 15 pound weight limit.


This post?

Well, I thought I'd responded to some of it in other posts, which is perhaps why I didn't quote you directly.

Since at my apartment, we all PAY for the right to use the facility, we all get that right. I do NOT enter the dog park when smaller dogs are playing because it's my turn to wait to use the facility. If I don't have time to wait, or if my time was so valuable that I couldn't sit there for 20-40 minutes, then I'd take the dogs for a jog or go elsewhere. 

The problem, IMO, is that other people don't want to wait their turns, as us big dog people are expected to. Yes, I choose to own big dogs. But as we all pay to use the facility, *everyone* has a right to use it without having their time infringed upon by other dogs who may not play well with theirs. 

In ANY situation, entering the dog park and forcing someone else to leave because your dog can't play well with theirs is rude. Whether you have a big dog that may trample little dogs, as I do, or you have a small dog that may nip at the big dogs, as some people do, or you have a hyper yet super-submissive dog who doesn't play well with others, as some people do. Before entering the park, people should assess the play style of the dogs currently there, the play style of their own dog and see if it will work. If it won't - don't go into the park.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

Daenerys said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> And I will also say that everyone is responsible for themselves when using a public facility like a dog park.
> 
> ...


I like this. -A lot-. I think was beautifully said.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> In ANY situation, entering the dog park and forcing someone else to leave because your dog can't play well with theirs is rude.


Um, how about instead of blaming other people that have dogs that are GOOD with other dogs "forcing" you to leave, you just don't take your dogs to the dog park? You know...considering you do the VERY THING you just complained about.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Xeph said:


> I recognize that Strauss is not good with large groups of other dogs, so I don't take him to a DP. I don't feel entitled to be at one, just because my dog needs exercise, and everybody else's dogs be damned!


Exactly! I take Angel to an old baseball field that is now used to train military dogs here on the base. I know she wouldn't be good with certain types of dogs (small white dogs or wirehaired terreir types) so I avoid DP's like the plague with her.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Are you the park warden? if not you have no authority to kick people out, I don't give a damn if you pay to use or not.
> 
> You contradict yourself right here, you admit your dogs shouldn't be off leash due to hight prey drive.
> 
> ...


I have no problem with being "called out" if someone is quoting me directly, as you did. I have a problem with being "called out" when people are misquoting me and basically LYING about what I've said, as RBark did.

My dogs are not aggressive and have never harmed another dog. I avoid situations in which this can happen. When they see a small dog running, as many do right when they are released into the park, they chase it, and the dog can easily be trampled before I have a moment to recall them. I don't go into the dog park when there are small dogs playing. I expect the same courtesy from them when I have already arrived. 

Actually, according to the rules posted on my dog park, we are allowed to ask people to leave if their dog is being aggressive, causing problems, is too young, or too small. If the person will not leave, we are allowed to complain to the management about them. So yes, actually, I am allowed to ask people to leave if they are breaking the rules. As are all other residents at my apartment complex. ETA: I would never ask anyone to leave from a truly public dog park. If another dog was causing a problem, I would simply leave or move to a different area. However, this simply isn't possible in my apartment area.

Sometimes, when you take my quotes out of context, they can mean different things, as some of the ones you've used. If someone with a small dog is already at the park, I ask how long they're going to be and I wait my turn. If I am already at the park, I explain that my dogs play rough and aren't good with smaller dogs, and ask that they wait their turn. Everyone has to wait to use public facilities and it is selfish to expect 6 large dog owners to leave the dog park so that your 16 lb. dog can play (general you, not you directly, cshellenberger).



Xeph said:


> Um, how about instead of blaming other people that have dogs that are GOOD with other dogs "forcing" you to leave, you just don't take your dogs to the dog park? You know...considering you do the VERY THING you just complained about.


Perhaps you've misread the posts - the dog park at my apartment complex involves waiting your turn sometimes. I would NEVER just let my dogs into the park when other smaller dogs where playing and expect everyone to clear out for me, as many small dog owners have done to me in the past. Similarly, when small dog owners expect all of the large dog owners to clear out for them, it's selfish. 

Whoever is currently using the facility has priority in the facility (according to posted rules at the park). Sheesh, what is the big deal about people waiting their turn at the dog park or dog run? This just proves how much we live in a society of instant gratification. People think they're entitled to everything and they want it NOW, instead of waiting for their turn to enjoy the facility.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

dmickle1 said:


> In ANY situation, entering the dog park and forcing someone else to leave because your dog can't play well with theirs is rude. Whether you have a big dog that may trample little dogs, as I do, or you have a small dog that may nip at the big dogs, as some people do, or you have a hyper yet super-submissive dog who doesn't play well with others, as some people do. Before entering the park, people should assess the play style of the dogs currently there, the play style of their own dog and see if it will work. If it won't - don't go into the park.


This is interesting to me because it seems like "entering the dog park and forcing someone else to leave because your dog can't play well with theirs" is EXACTLY what you are doing. Maybe you don't flat out tell them to leave, but this whole taking turns business and waiting for your dogs to be done is something that would make me leave. I don't want to associate with someone who thinks their dogs are more important than mine and should get to have the park to themselves if a small dog owner comes along. I don't understand what you're trying to say with all of your examples of different sized dogs not playing nice, because it sounds like in the case you've been describing throughout the thread YOUR dog is the one with the problem. And yet here you are advocating that people with dogs like yours leave the park. I mean, I agree with you on that point, but I can't say I understand how this is supposed to be supporting your view that it's ok to inconvenience other dog owners because of YOUR dog's faults.

Also, it doesn't really sound like the area you're describing is actually a dog park...it sounds more like a shared yard situation, which is different. I wouldn't transfer the things that are acceptable to do there, to the things that are acceptable to do at what is truly a dog park and not just an area built into your rent. Even if you pay to use an actual dog park, I don't think it gives you any entitlement to start orchestrating turns. You don't own the park. You don't get to decide when someone else wants to bring their dog there, and you can't enforce appointment times for them. If your dog is a danger to ANY other sort of dog, you simply shouldn't be taking them to the dog park. You don't like it, but it's the truth and I think MOST people feel this way.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dmickle1 said:


> And you're very good at lying and misquoting me, RBark.
> 
> The reality is that you've indicated by using quotations that I've directly said all of those things. The reality is also that I've said NONE of them. The reality is also that by misquoting me and misrepresenting my words, you look like a... well, I guess I won't start calling names. But I'm sure as heck insinuating them right now.
> 
> Do us all a favor - don't misquote people on a forum. It's just stupid.


Oh, I didn't see this while I was quoting you. Not good, not good AT ALL!


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

: ( Makes me sad that people don't actually read threads but still have to have their say about how wrong someone is as they misrepresent the situation.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

dagwall said:


> : ( Makes me sad that people don't actually read threads but still have to have their say about how wrong someone is as they misrepresent the situation.


Who are you referring to?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dmickle1 said:


> Whoever is currently using the facility has priority in the facility (according to posted rules at the park). Sheesh, what is the big deal about people waiting their turn at the dog park or dog run? This just proves how much we live in a society of instant gratification. People think they're entitled to everything and they want it NOW, instead of waiting for their turn to enjoy the facility.


This is the first mention you've made that the stated rules allow for "turns", which is NOT the norm at most dog parks. People can only react to the information they have, although honestly with the amount of backpedaling and contradictory statements going on in this thread I'm taking this new information with a grain of salt.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Stirb said:


> At the dog park today with my 2 year old husky and 6 month old husky, went to go get the 2 year old to leave when this lady comes running saying he killed her teacup yorkie. Well the husky is a very sweet dog around the house and never shows sign of aggression or trys to harm the lil maltipoo. I didnt see the situation go down so I cant say what happened. But makes me wonder why is such a small small dog at a dog park here such large dogs as great danes go? Whos really at fault here? Im on the side she shouldnt have brought a small dog to the park, if it wasnt my dog, whos to say another high prey driven dog do it?
> 
> Anywhere else I go I get the your at blame, its your fault, your a bad owner, huskies arnt bad, you need to train you dog...blah..blah...blah
> 
> ...


What does any of it matter? Your dog was unatteneded long enough to go and KILL another dog, YOU did not properly TRAIN and SUPERVISE your dog or the other dog would have come to no harm. If your huskies prey drive is that strong, it shouldn't have been at a dog park of ANY kind in the first place.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> Who are you referring to?



Pretty much everyone claiming dmickle kicks out small dogs when she gets to the dog run expecting them to accomidate her exclusive needs. She stated many times she waits and/or asks how long they will be. Asking them to wait for her in a private dog run isn't outlandish as most are trying to portray. Agreed if it was a public park it would be completely different and I'll agree she isn't helping her arguement by calling it a dog park which to most means public.

Edit:
Also earlier in this thread many jumped on the OP for reading a book while this happened. The OP had made the comment along the lines of "it's not like I sat down to read" but many just skimmed and only saw them mention reading a book. While I do NOT side with the OP, they are responsible for their dog killing another it isn't because they were reading and not paying attention as many accused them of.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

dagwall said:


> Pretty much everyone claiming dmickle kicks out small dogs when she gets to the dog run expecting them to accomidate her exclusive needs. She stated many times she waits and/or asks how long they will be. Asking them to wait for her in a private dog run isn't outlandish as most are trying to portray. Agreed if it was a public park it would be completely different and I'll agree she isn't helping her arguement by calling it a dog park which to most means public.


I'm most concerned about the OP, but did you not see where it quoted numerous times where she said she kicks people out?


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

dagwall said:


> Pretty much everyone claiming dmickle kicks out small dogs when she gets to the dog run expecting them to accomidate her exclusive needs. She stated many times she waits and/or asks how long they will be. Asking them to wait for her in a private dog run isn't outlandish as most are trying to portray. Agreed if it was a public park it would be completely different and I'll agree she isn't helping her arguement by calling it a dog park which to most means public.


People can only respond given the information provided. I think it is extremely rude to say we were misrepresenting her when she has stated for like 4 pages worth of this post that the place she takes her dog is a DOG PARK. Sorry we can't read her mind. Sorry that makes you "so sad". :/

Oh, and if you read her VERY FIRST POST she did state that she kicked small dogs out and didn't care if that was a mean thing to do.
EDIT: Excuse me, it was their second post: "I kick people with teacup dogs out of my dog park. I don't care if I'm being mean, or being a bully."


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dagwall said:


> Pretty much everyone claiming dmickle kicks out small dogs when she gets to the dog run expecting them to accomidate her exclusive needs. She stated many times she waits and/or asks how long they will be. Asking them to wait for her in a private dog run isn't outlandish as most are trying to portray. Agreed if it was a public park it would be completely different and I'll agree she isn't helping her arguement by calling it a dog park which to most means public.


Actally she stated several times she kicks people out, then backpeddled and said she didn't seversl times. It' amoot point niw though zso we can go back fo addressing the OP.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> People can only respond given the information provided. I think it is extremely rude to say we were misrepresenting her when she has stated for like 4 pages worth of this post that the place she takes her dog is a DOG PARK. Sorry we can't read her mind. Sorry that makes you "so sad". :/
> 
> Oh, and if you read her VERY FIRST POST she did state that she kicked small dogs out and didn't care if that was a mean thing to do.
> EDIT: Excuse me, it was their second post: "I kick people with teacup dogs out of my dog park. I don't care if I'm being mean, or being a bully."


She followed up saying they are under the weight limit for the park I believe.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

dagwall said:


> Edit:
> Also earlier in this thread many jumped on the OP for reading a book while this happened. The OP had made the comment along the lines of "it's not like I sat down to read" but many just skimmed and only saw them mention reading a book. While I do NOT side with the OP, they are responsible for their dog killing another it isn't because they were reading and not paying attention as many accused them of.


Eh, I think a majority of people on here use DF on their phones. Accidents happen. People misread stuff. But that doesn't change the fact that the OP was clearly not watching their dog closely enough. They stated that they thought the point of the dog park was to let your dog's run free, that the dog was out of his sight, and that he knew the dog had an uncontrollable prey drive. Does it really matter WHAT he was doing while his dog was off killing someone else's? I don't think so. What matters is he was irresponsible in the way he handled his dog and another dog had to die because of it. Whether he was reading or chasing after the dog, what happened was his responsibility and I have yet to see him post anything that shows he acknowledges that.



dagwall said:


> She followed up saying they are under the weight limit for the park I believe.


Sure. Then in that same post she said she even gets an attitude with "20 lbs terriers" which are OVER the weight limit. I'm really wondering now how well YOU'VE read the thread. :/

QUOTE: "I blatantly kick people out who have dogs under 15 lbs (the weight limit) or people with puppies under 9 months, which aren't allowed. I was very nice and patient with these people for a long time, and it ended up biting me in the butt, so I no longer have patience for rule breakers. 

With other people, who have *20 lb terriers* or such, I tell them that my dogs are bad with small dogs and that *they can enter at their own risk.* If they complain, I explain to them that I spend several hours a week waiting for people with small dogs to get done using the dog park, and that while the facilities are public, that doesn't mean that we can all use them at the same time."


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

Totally off-topic but reading the posts... OMG Kafkabeetle, I want to steal Sydney...she is gorgeous!!

Jen


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## Beckster (Jul 30, 2011)

Just my two cents...

I own an 80 lb shepherd who is absolutely wonderful with other dogs. As of yet he doesn't know what aggression is, almost to a fault when a dog in his class growled and snapped at him and Micah barely responded. However because of his sheer size he cannot play with super small/frail breeds. All it takes is one misstep and the other dog could be seriously injured or killed. While I have never taken him to the dog park because he does not have 100% recall in distracting situations, when he does get to that point I will be very selective about which dogs I will allow him to play with, for his own protection as well as the other dogs. I have heard way too many horror stories about accidental deaths in big dog vs. little dog situations. To me I would much rather enjoy a leashed walk in the park on the day where the park is filled with toy breeds vs. worrying the whole time about my dog accidentally hurting another.

On the prey drive note, I was surprised one day when Micah started seriously stalking a cat in the neighborhood as if it were a squirrel. He is not socialized to cats yet, and it got me wondering how he is supposed to know which animals are friends vs. prey? How am I supposed to expect him to treat a species that he has had limited contact with as a pet? I am not sure what advice to give the OP except to remember that it is better to have too little faith in your dog than too much. Just because my dog has never chased after a small dog before doesn't mean he won't someday mistake one for a woodchuck.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

I guess I gave them the benefit of the doubt and viewed their follow ups as clarification of exagerations to make a point versus backtracking and changing their story. I could be wrong in my interpreatation and it's certainly not something I'm going to get worked up over on an internet forum. 

Just a pet peeve of mine on forums when people don't read the information provided or mis-read it and go on the offensive against the poster for the wrong reasons. This is more related to the attacks on the OP for reading a book. Yes they are in the wrong for not properly watching/controling their dog and shouldn't have expected a different answer coming here and deserve to hear it. It all just comes with the territory on forums as people skim or skip posts entirely often just annoys me sometimes. With that I'm done with off topic discussion in this thread as I don't want to fight/argue over it.


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

Beckster said:


> Just my two cents...
> 
> I own an 80 lb shepherd who is absolutely wonderful with other dogs. As of yet he doesn't know what aggression is, almost to a fault when a dog in his class growled and snapped at him and Micah barely responded. However because of his sheer size he cannot play with super small/frail breeds. All it takes is one misstep and the other dog could be seriously injured or killed. While I have never taken him to the dog park because he does not have 100% recall in distracting situations, when he does get to that point I will be very selective about which dogs I will allow him to play with, for his own protection as well as the other dogs. I have heard way too many horror stories about accidental deaths in big dog vs. little dog situations. To me I would much rather enjoy a leashed walk in the park on the day where the park is filled with toy breeds vs. worrying the whole time about my dog accidentally hurting another.


EXACTLY! I have an English Mastiff. I'm ALWAYS aware and cautious in terms of what dogs he's around because he is so much larger than most other dogs. I may be overly cautious with him but I've explained to people though that IF something were to happen and he got into a fight with another dog...how is it going to end up? I know how it'd end up. Uallis would end up hurting the dog and he'd be blamed for it whether it were is fault or not. It's just the way it is. It's part and parcel of owning a large dog. I also wouldn't allow him to play with a small breed dog and I wouldn't be taking him to a park that small dogs frequented.

However, I don't think this is a small dog vs. big dog issue. This is an issue of owners not watching their dogs while at a park. If you do not have complete verbal control over your dog, they don't belong off-leash in a public area. Period. If they have a high prey drive and can't be called off, they do not belong off leash in a public area. Period.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

jenz said:


> Totally off-topic but reading the posts... OMG Kafkabeetle, I want to steal Sydney...she is gorgeous!!
> 
> Jen


Thank you.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Porphyria said:


> It doesn't matter how good a dog's recall is, if he's running and playing and a smaller dog gets in the way, the other dog might get run over. I just don't see what recall has to do with a large dog accidentally running over a little dog. I've seen a number of small dogs get run over by danes and the like at the dog park. That is not the owner of the large dog's fault. It's also not the owner of the small dog's fault. It's just an accident (an accident that could be avoided if everyone followed the rules, which are in place for a very good reason).


Recall matters in that context because the owner can see a small dog approaching a group of big dogs LONG before your dog does. If you see a small dog that might get trampled and hurt approaching your bouncing, trampling dog, then call him to you BEFORE the small dog gets there. Prevent problems before they happen...



dmickle1 said:


> And you're very good at lying and misquoting me, RBark.
> 
> The reality is that you've indicated by using quotations that I've directly said all of those things. The reality is also that I've said NONE of them. The reality is also that by misquoting me and misrepresenting my words, you look like a... well, I guess I won't start calling names. But I'm sure as heck insinuating them right now.
> 
> Do us all a favor - don't misquote people on a forum. It's just stupid.


I never claimed those were exact quotes, if I did, I would use the [ quote ] and [ /quote ] function. I summarized all of the things you've said circularly in this thread. If you want me to go back and quote each and every one of those contradictions, I will, but I'm assuming most in this thread is attentive enough to see that clearly for themselves.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

I frequently take my 7.5 lb dog to the under 30 lb section in our dog park. When there is a group of bigger dogs playing, I either call her over to me or direct her to a different part of the park. She has the good sense to stay away from rough big players anyways. Sometimes people bring elderly or shy big dogs that can't handle the big dog section into the little dog park. Sometimes Lola can get a bit uncomfortable around big dogs, so if she barks at them even once, I call her to me and we leave. Technically under the rules, they aren't supposed to be there and it states that I have the right to ask them to leave or call animal control. But I'm of the opinion that if MY dog has the problem, it's us that should leave. I wish everybody had that mindset. 

There is another dog park that's actually closer that also has 2 sections, but I never ever go there. People there with big dogs often complain that nobody uses the small dog section. The small dog section is maybe 1/10th the size of the big dog section. It's minuscule. It also has no shade whatsoever, no benches, no water, --literally nothing but wood chips. The big dog section is beautiful, has tons of benches, grass, trees for shade, little pools, and is big enough that you can walk around a little bit. Why would they expect anybody to use the small dog section?


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

LoMD13 said:


> There is another dog park that's actually closer that also has 2 sections, but I never ever go there. People there with big dogs often complain that nobody uses the small dog section. The small dog section is maybe 1/10th the size of the big dog section. It's minuscule. It also has no shade whatsoever, no benches, no water, --literally nothing but wood chips. The big dog section is beautiful, has tons of benches, grass, trees for shade, little pools, and is big enough that you can walk around a little bit. Why would they expect anybody to use the small dog section?


We have a similar situation. This is a map of it:

http://county.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cntyParks/maps/RunwayDEA.pdf

Nobody uses the small dog area. We go in there when we want to play fetch undisturbed or when there's just too many dogs to let our pup off leash. Though as she's gotten older we use the big dog area more often. It's large enough that everyone is usually spread out. Well besides the people who congregate at the entrance...

BTW it's called Runway dog park because General Mitchel Airport is just north and there's constantly air planes landing over your head


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Dog parks tend to be awful messes. While I do take Bones and Halo to the "unofficial" local dog park which is just the University's old golf-course, they are leashed 100%, and we stick to the walking trails. I also don't allow them to interact with the hoards of dogs that tend to be on the other end of the park. Why risk it? People always seem to be oblivious of why it is a bad thing to take a dog with RG to a park or a dog who doesn't like big dogs or small dogs. I rather spare myself and my dogs from other people's stupidity. However- if someone there told me that I shouldn't bring my dog because theirs was aggressive I'd pull out my can of bear mace and tell them "I don't think it'll be a problem-"


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## mom24doggies (Mar 25, 2011)

Bones said:


> However- if someone there told me that I shouldn't bring my dog because theirs was aggressive I'd pull out my can of bear mace and tell them "I don't think it'll be a problem-"


 Haha, love that.  I agree though, people with aggressive dogs shouldn't be there anyway.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

whew, finished the thread. IMO, the owner of both dogs were wrong....lots to read, I admit to having to skim some but IF this dog was in a park with large dogs, shame on the owner for not keeping her dog safe. Shame on the OP as well for not keeping an eye on a small prey driven dog. Now, I don't have a large, small prey driven dog but even if the OP had eyes on her, methinks that there would not have been anything she could have done, it would have been over by the time she got to her dog (unless she was right next to her).
I have a 33lb dog who is not good with some small dogs. We have no dog park here but sometimes have used a fenced in ballfield as a dog park. If we were there and a small dog came, we leashed Boone because I couldn't live with myself if he harmed another dog. We stopped going to the field because it only has a 4' tall fence and our young Brittany could scale that easily.
No one has the right to tell other dogs they can't come into a dog park, unless it's a dog going to the "wrong" part of the park (if there is a small/large dog area) or the officials of a dog park.


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## Jenn~n~Luke (Aug 20, 2010)

This would be just one of the reasons I don't frequent dog parks, and probably wouldn't even if I had a dog who adored and played perfectly with every creature on the planet. As soon as you step into a public park with an off lead dog, you are dealing with strangers. Strange dogs, and strange humans. You have no way of knowing which owner has real control over their dog....which dogs are highly prey driven, what annoys or aggravates them, etc. Even the most reliably trained dog can take a dislike to a new one, or act in an unpredictable way for an instant, causing a bad situation to happen before anyone can do a thing to stop it. To me, and an increasing amount of people it would seem, dog parks just aren't worth the risk. We live in a society where finding people who honestly take full responsibility for their *own* actions, let alone that of their dogs, is rare. Everyone and everything else must first be blamed and perhaps sued if possible. How many innocent dogs get blamed at dog parks everyday when owners who don't understand dog behavior, body language,etc...can't see that little fuzzy is not perfect 100% of the time and might have instigated something?
I think owners of large breeds or in my case, giant breeds, have to be even more careful of putting our dogs in situations where they may be blamed for something that isn't their fault, because you can almost guarantee in most cases if an accident occurs and it happens between a small breed and a large breed, the big dog is going to get blamed no matter what. I've just seen too much of it to ever be comfortable enough to risk it unless I have a good sense of the individual dog owner and that dog.
And I can definitely relate to owners with big dogs, who are approached by small or toy breeds, where the owners think the little one is so tough and it's so cute to see them running around trying to control and bully the larger ones, and heaven forbid if that large dog doesn't take too well to the yapping in it's face or being nipped and lunged at. But on that same note, when you try to explain to them that for THEIR dog's safety you'd rather not risk it, you're the bad guy then too. So you can't win.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

But J~n~L you are winning but it's the kind of win that can't be proved, you just got to have faith that good choices kept you & your dog out of a silly accident. I would rather play Russian Roulette than take a dog to a dog park because if I lose the game it will be me that pays the price not the dog. 

Of course I'm old school there were no dog parks back then. Hmmmmmm! I wonder how all those dogs survived way back when most were walked on leads.


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## Jenn~n~Luke (Aug 20, 2010)

Yes I agree. I think dog parks sound great in theory...when we look at things from a human's point of view. But then reality kicks in...the dangers, the risks, and a lot of dogs just do not NEED to be meeting new "friends" every day of life in order to lead happy, healthy and fulfilled lives. Do I enjoy it when Luke finds a new friend? Oh yes I do. It warms my heart to see him having fun with a new "girlfriend" lol. BUT...I prefer smaller, more intimate settings where I have a chance to chat one on one with the dog's owner, watch the interaction between them and get a better sense of whether this is a dog Luke will be happy with. Mind you anything female USUALLY is a go with this guy  I prefer going to our local fenced in ball fields where dog owners go, there are five fields and if you show up and someone is already there, you can pick another one. If they're all full generally speaking the person there already will leave to allow the new person access. NO ONE opens up those gates and lets their dogs into an already taken field, even if its just one dog, without asking if it's ok. And in my area, that's a good thing since the vast majority of dogs here are severely aggressive and owned by total tools. 
I know Luke, YET...I NEVER say with 100% certainty that he'll "never do this or that". somehow, I can be ok with the fact that as a human, I do not know everything, nor can I foresee every little thing he will ever do in his lifetime. So I try really hard not to put him in situations where he could fail so to speak. I wish more people would do that. And I really wish that those who choose not to, would accept and appreciate those responsible enough to atleast TRY to do so. Then again we ARE dealing with humans after all. Hopeless if you ask me lol.


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## Porphyria (Jul 18, 2011)

RBark said:


> Recall matters in that context because the owner can see a small dog approaching a group of big dogs LONG before your dog does. If you see a small dog that might get trampled and hurt approaching your bouncing, trampling dog, then call him to you BEFORE the small dog gets there. Prevent problems before they happen...


When dogs are running and playing they move pretty quickly. Two quickly moving animals can collide before the owner even realizes. I've seen several small dogs get run over by bigger dogs before any owners even have a chance to realize that it was about to about to happen, let alone have the presence of mind to call the dog over. Then there's always the chance that the owners don't even see the little dog getting in the way in the first place. In most cases, dogs being run into/run over is not something that any amount of training can prevent, because it happens so fast. The best way to prevent accidents like these is to separate small and large dogs.


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## Jenn~n~Luke (Aug 20, 2010)

Porphyria said:


> When dogs are running and playing they move pretty quickly. I've seen several small dogs get run over by bigger dogs before any owners even have a chance to realize that it was about to about to happen, let alone have the presence of mind to call the dog over. Then there's always the chance that the owners don't even see the little dog getting in the way in the first place. In most cases, dogs being run into/run over is not something that any amount of training can prevent, because it happens so fast. The best way to prevent accidents like these is to separate small and large dogs.


I agree completely. Luke is great with smaller dogs but here's the thing. Even with Kayla, who's not what you'd call a small breed, *standard poodle* when she gets running, she can stop on a dime. She makes these sharp turns and curves, and poor Luke..he tries so hard to keep up with her, but when she stops dead in front of him he CAN NOT stop like that. He has to start his "stop" a good ten feet before he's ready to stop. Kind of like brakes on a fast moving car  There have been times where Kayla has stopped too suddenly or ran in front of him where he stumbled over her, unintentionally, and I'm sorry, but NO ONE at a dog park is able to foresee every abrupt movement and direction a bunch of running dogs are about to make. Accidents happen, no matter how reliably trained your dog is, no matter how great a dog owner/trainer you are. If you are not 100% ok with taking those risks for your dog, then don't take them. It's really that simple. Because large dogs cannot move in the same way as the little ones. That's just fact.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

It amazes me, before joining DF I had never (still haven't) met any perfect people, yet through the yrs here I have many times heard about the 100% recalls that their dogs do. I've trained/owned some decent dogs, these dogs on some days were very, very, very good at whatever was needed but definitely none that were 100% every day. That being said I think if people want to go the dog park route that's fine, life is a gamble every time you cross the street.


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## Jenn~n~Luke (Aug 20, 2010)

lol Yup, it seems all the perfect folks have congregated to dog forums  
I happily and humbly admit that I am far from perfect, my dog is far from perfect, although he is perfect for ME, and I will never deliberately allow him to come to harm so I can show off my training skills or prove to the world that I am so superior that my dog won't sneeze unless I allow it. I don't know, I just find it incredibly arrogant when people claim certain things about their animals. At the end of the day, they are animals. Not people, who at the very least can speak to you in your own language and warn you ahead of time "hey this is what I'm gonna do". Cripes, if you can live with another PERSON for twenty some years and have them do something unpredictable, it's just ludicrous to assume you can predict a dog that reliably.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I've told this story before, but maybe it deserves repeating in the current context.

Years ago, I was walking the dog park trail with a half-dozen other owners and their dogs. Among them was a young, miniature dachshund.

She was a feisty little thing and we were all chuckling at how fast her little short legs were moving to keep up with the other, much bigger dogs.

I caught a glimpse of a very large Siberian (I thought it was a malamute) running across the field toward us and stupidly didn't recognize the threat. The dachshund did, though, and she dropped to the ground (a short drop) and rolled onto her back in submission.

The husky picked her up by the chest and started shaking her. The dachshund's owner either fell or jumped onto the husky, who dropped the dachshund to the ground. I scooped her up because it seemed like the thing to do.

The husky started circling me and my own dog started to tense and appeared ready to pounce on the husky. (He was a huge, powerful lab, but a lab none-the-less and I don't imagine he could have held off a large husky for very long.)

I remember thinking things were about to get a whole lot uglier when the husky's owner came strolling down the trail. We told him what happened (possibly none too calmly) and he blamed the dachshund's owner for having a small dog in the park. (Sound familiar?) He was still denying any responsibility when the sheriff showed up and took over.

The dachshund survived, but with some pretty serious injuries. I happened to know a vet tech at the clinic where she was being treated and I called her to get some insight into what happened. (She is also a respected trainer.) She told me quite of bit of what has been discussed in this thread and I ended up feeling not too good about dog parks and huskies.

The remedy for the latter was to hook up with a friend who had one of my 4-5 favorite dogs of all time - a beautiful and expertly trained Siberian named Leah. Leah's owner was the polar opposite of the owner I met following that horrific incident with the dachshund. He never let Leah out of his sight at the park. He had the best recall I've ever seen. She was not allowed to rough-house with the other dogs or with her owner. (I learned why when I looked after her while her owner went on his honeymoon. That's when I learned the difference between husky teeth and lab teeth when I stupidly initiated a little rough-housing with Leah.)

I place 100% of the blame on the husky's owner in the incident I witnessed. I was there. I know what happened.

I didn't see the incident discussed in this thread, but the similarities are striking.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

LoMD13 said:


> There is another dog park that's actually closer that also has 2 sections, but I never ever go there. People there with big dogs often complain that nobody uses the small dog section. The small dog section is maybe 1/10th the size of the big dog section. It's minuscule. It also has no shade whatsoever, no benches, no water, --literally nothing but wood chips. The big dog section is beautiful, has tons of benches, grass, trees for shade, little pools, and is big enough that you can walk around a little bit. Why would they expect anybody to use the small dog section?


Our dog park is the same. Dogs of all sizes are allowed in the main park, but there's also a separate "safe" area for small dogs. The main park is a large fenced-in area with a water pump and bowl, picnic tables, a bit of agility equipment and some toys. The small dog section is a tiny square of fenced-in grass (that you actually need to go through the main park to get to). There's absolutely nothing in there for the dogs to do, and more than two small dogs would be cramped. It's actually smaller than my (small) backyard. I don't go to the dog park at all because my dogs just aren't dog park dogs (too nervous/reactive around big dogs), but if we did, I'd be pretty annoyed about someone forcing me into that tiny area. 

I wish the OP would come back and answer the question about what type of park it was (doesn't sound like it was fenced, but I'm curious to know if there was a weight limit) and the question about whether or not the yorkie was leashed.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

I think the person with the husky should definitely apologize and LEAVE if small dogs enter the area off leash.

On the same token - I'm sorry, but your toy dog does NOT belong on the big dog side, people. I have a toy breed, Papillon, and she is at my side 100% of the time on the small dog area and I STILL get crazy JRT/Chihuahua mixes chasing her down and biting her (at which point I leave) - there is no way in hell I would let her loose with dogs 20x her weight and larger. We have people doing this ALL the time at our dog park, and I stopped going. That said, your big dog doesn't belong on the small dog side unless they are well behaved! There is a reason for the rule. And no one should be the dog park police - if people are breaking the rules, tell them politely and if they continue to break the rules and make excuses, find another park or don't go. I don't go anymore because kids bring in their 8-10 week old puppies, people talk on their cell phone while their anti-social toy dog terrorizes the others, and I hate to see kids and dogs getting bitten by out of control dogs with irresponsible owners.

If it were a park owned by apartment management, I would definitely tell management about the owners who don't follow the rules and let them deal with it, but if someone told me I was kicked out because they wanted their large dog to frolic in the small dog area and we both pay for the use of the park, I'd have a lot to say to that person (although there is no way I'd stay with a large dog off leash in the area.)

I know there are some well behaved large dogs, but I don't know a stranger's dog and toy dog owners are INCREDIBLY stupid to let their dogs play with larger dogs they don't know off-leash. It only takes one shake.

/end rant.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> It amazes me, before joining DF I had never (still haven't) met any perfect people, yet through the yrs here I have many times heard about the 100% recalls that their dogs do. I've trained/owned some decent dogs, these dogs on some days were very, very, very good at whatever was needed but definitely none that were 100% every day. That being said I think if people want to go the dog park route that's fine, life is a gamble every time you cross the street.


Appears directed towards me. It sounds like you're misinterpreting the context in which I am preaching recall. 100% recall is impossible, of course. My dog has 99% recall in the dog park, I know there's always that 1%.

But this is a far cry from the people in this thread who apparently *can't* recall their dog in a dog park. If the dog has no recall, or a poorly trained one, then it sounds like they need to stop complaining and start training. Any imagination people had in regards to me being the perfect dog owner is merely that. I have a rock solid recall on Kobe, as solid as it can possibly be trained. That does not mean 100%, nor perfect.

Having a recall on your dog will get you out of 99% of situations. Recall could have allowed most of the situations indicated in this thread to be avoided completely. There might be that 1% of the time it would not, but how would they know it wouldn't have solved the problem? They don't have a reliable recall. So that 1% chance of a dog getting hurt just grew by leaps and bounds due to poor recall.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

RBark said:


> Having a recall on your dog will get you out of 99% of situations. Recall could have allowed most of the situations indicated in this thread to be avoided completely. There might be that 1% of the time it would not, but how would they know it wouldn't have solved the problem? They don't have a reliable recall. So that 1% chance of a dog getting hurt just grew by leaps and bounds due to poor recall.


I agree with you but just on this part I wanted to mention - just because you have a great recall on your dog doesn't mean other people do or that you should trust a stranger when they say they do - and it can be extremely dangerous for small dog owners. No matter how much you recall your dog, it won't matter if they are already being attacked by a much larger dog.

I'm not arguing with what you are saying but in addition to having a good recall, many of these situations could be avoided by small dog owners not assuming that the large dog owners have control of their dogs and that the dogs won't play rough. I would assume you are 1 in 1000 with recall. Most people (including myself) do not have a very good recall with their dogs. Cosette's about 80% indoors, 40% outdoors - and we need to work on it, but even if it was 99% as a responsible toy dog owner, she should not be offleash with other offleash large dogs that we don't know, even with supervision. I have to hold her around my parents' GSD because if he even steps on her or trips over here when greeting, she could be injured. I feel that small dog owners have a larger portion of responsibility to keep their dogs safe from accidents. But it certainly doesn't excuse a careless large dog owner who's dog attacks a small dog either.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

It is not a magic solution, not my intention to imply such. It merely gives you, the owner of your dog, the ability to control your dog's interactions. I do not trust anyone else's dogs. That is why I exert as much control as I possibly can over my own dog- that is the only thing I can do to navigate through these problems safely.

There is no command to tell another dog to get off of yours, but you can observe other dogs. If other dogs seem off, you have the control to call them back to you before any problems happen. In an ideal world, we would all be responsible for our dogs. It's not an ideal world, so the best I can do is make sure I have control over them.

Just watching the dogs interact will avoid most of the problems too. A ill behaved dog is obvious. I see one, I call my dog to me and move on. That's all it is, whether other people think their dogs are angels or not doesn't matter to me, I only trust my own observations.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

The reason I despise public dog parks so much is because _anything and everything can happen in them_. There are rules in place to help protect people and dogs from disaster, but people will be people and seem to blatantly ignore them. Nothing is stopping some irresponsible idiot from walking in through the front gate with their overstimulated, pent-up dog. My dog park days have long since been over due to one to many bad experiences, but if I ever decided to return with a small dog, there's absolutely NO way I'd bring them into the large dog area. I'd stick to the small dog areas regardless of how my dog handles themselves with larger dogs, because of things exactly like this. If there wasn't a small dog area available, I'd go elsewhere. Because in the end, it doesn't matter "who's at fault" and who's suing who in court when my dog is dead because I chose to ignore the rules. That makes ME a failure as a good dog owner.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

RBark said:


> Appears directed towards me. It sounds like you're misinterpreting the context in which I am preaching recall. 100% recall is impossible, of course. My dog has 99% recall in the dog park, I know there's always that 1%.
> 
> But this is a far cry from the people in this thread who apparently *can't* recall their dog in a dog park. If the dog has no recall, or a poorly trained one, then it sounds like they need to stop complaining and start training. Any imagination people had in regards to me being the perfect dog owner is merely that. I have a rock solid recall on Kobe, as solid as it can possibly be trained. That does not mean 100%, nor perfect.
> 
> Having a recall on your dog will get you out of 99% of situations. Recall could have allowed most of the situations indicated in this thread to be avoided completely. There might be that 1% of the time it would not, but how would they know it wouldn't have solved the problem? They don't have a reliable recall. So that 1% chance of a dog getting hurt just grew by leaps and bounds due to poor recall.


No read carefully cause I know you also have read more than a few 100% recall replies. It was aimed at people that read 100% and agree in their heads that their dogs are also 100% on recalls. I know you know better than that cause I have read the 1% common sense answer before from you. There is not a target on your back for anything from me. 

The 100% thing lasts till one day it is not 100% and a dog is hurt. % then drops down to 99% and people wonder how it happened. Whew that's way too many 100%ers in this reply. There have been a few dogs I would have bet the family farm on their recalls were so good but not willing to bet the safety of somebody's dog.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Jenn~n~Luke said:


> lol Yup, it seems all the perfect folks have congregated to dog forums
> I happily and humbly admit that I am far from perfect, my dog is far from perfect, although he is perfect for ME, and I will never deliberately allow him to come to harm so I can show off my training skills or prove to the world that I am so superior that my dog won't sneeze unless I allow it. I don't know, I just find it incredibly arrogant when people claim certain things about their animals. At the end of the day, they are animals. Not people, who at the very least can speak to you in your own language and warn you ahead of time "hey this is what I'm gonna do". Cripes, if you can live with another PERSON for twenty some years and have them do something unpredictable, it's just ludicrous to assume you can predict a dog that reliably.


You're assuming people train their dogs so they can show them off? That's just ridiculous. We train our dogs to keep them safe. Our 2 year old sheltie is nearly 100% reliable on his recall, leave it, and wait. Our 4.5 month old rough collie is nearing that same reliably on recall and is well on her way to learning leave it and wait. You think that it is arrogant to claim these things? No, these basic commands are essentials. They could _save your dog's life_ one day. They aren't for impressing people. They aren't just for using at the dog park. The vast majority of dog related incidents occur because the owner had no control over their dog. Will your dog ever be 100% predictable? No, but it's better than being 0%.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

HerdersForMe said:


> You're assuming people train their dogs so they can show them off? That's just ridiculous. We train our dogs to keep them safe. Our 2 year old sheltie is nearly 100% reliable on his recall, leave it, and wait. Our 4.5 month old rough collie is nearing that same reliably on recall and is well on her way to learning leave it and wait. You think that it is arrogant to claim these things? No, these basic commands are essentials. They could _save your dog's life_ one day. They aren't for impressing people. They aren't just for using at the dog park. The vast majority of dog related incidents occur because the owner had no control over their dog. Will your dog ever be 100% predictable? No, but it's better than being 0%.


Yes, above sounds cool. The big problem that amateurs have is the proofing of their dogs in different conditions because in my opinion it's impossible. A dog park is a living breathing entity that can change daily/hourly depending on the ingredients (dogs/people) in the park. I'm sorry, truth be told a Pro-trainer would also have the same proofing problems.

Old school Pro-trainers might have an edge because of aversives used and dogs having less choices in life. Oh my, I suppose that will start a debate. My opinion only though.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> No read carefully cause I know you also have read more than a few 100% recall replies. It was aimed at people that read 100% and agree in their heads that their dogs are also 100% on recalls. I know you know better than that cause I have read the 1% common sense answer before from you. There is not a target on your back for anything from me.
> 
> The 100% thing lasts till one day it is not 100% and a dog is hurt. % then drops down to 99% and people wonder how it happened. Whew that's way too many 100%ers in this reply. There have been a few dogs I would have bet the family farm on their recalls were so good but not willing to bet the safety of somebody's dog.


Ah, to be honest it took all of my brain-power to try to wrap my head around some of the posts, so I skimmed many posts. I didn't realize there were others who said 100% recall, so I thought it was directed at me. All good  I do agree with ya. It's always 100% until the 1% happens, and the 1% might have been far worse than anyone else's 1% because they were too confident in the recall and didn't pay attention. A solid recall is not a substitute for an attentive and cautious owner.


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Yes, above sounds cool. The big problem that amateurs have is the proofing of their dogs in different conditions because in my opinion it's impossible. A dog park is a living breathing entity that can change daily/hourly depending on the ingredients (dogs/people) in the park. I'm sorry, truth be told a Pro-trainer would also have the same proofing problems.
> 
> Old school Pro-trainers might have an edge because of aversives used and dogs having less choices in life. Oh my, I suppose that will start a debate. My opinion only though.


Right...you can't just train recall in your living room. We start indoors when the puppy is young. Then eventually we start training recall in the puppy/small dog area of the dog park as well as other locations. The small dog area is right by the entrance so there's a lot of distractions with other dogs running by the fence. When we feel comfortable we go into the rest of the park and continue practicing out there as we walk around less trafficked areas. Like I said, my 4 and a half month old collie is already very reliable on her recall even outdoors with distractions. Obviously you can't predict or prepare for every situation but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be as prepared as possible. 

One thing a lot of people screw up on recall is training is they haven't taught their pup to pay attention to them. When you say your dog's name, it should get their attention. If your dog doesn't eagerly turn to you and see what you want, you haven't trained them properly yet. If you aren't reliably at that point yet, you can't reliably train recall or other commands either.


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## Polywoggy (Mar 7, 2011)

HerdersForMe said:


> One thing a lot of people screw up on recall is training is they haven't taught their pup to pay attention to them. When you say your dog's name, it should get their attention. If your dog doesn't eagerly turn to you and see what you want, you haven't trained them properly yet. If you aren't reliably at that point yet, you can't reliably train recall or other commands either.



Only twice do I remember Willow not coming to me when called, which is pretty close to perfect, but it wasn't me, it was her. She's naturally velcro. Once it was her panicked by fireworks, the other time she was too busy ripping the feathers from a Muscovy duck that she caught.
Then when she became quite deaf about 1 1/2 years ago, her recall went out the window and she could no longer be trusted off lead. That was disappointing to me, to not be able to give her the freedom she used to have. I then realized that I had been relying too much on my voice. My next dog, I am going to work on it watching me more, more eye contact. (Although her vision is fairly dim now too, but the nose? The nose works just fine!)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

RBark said:


> Ah, to be honest it took all of my brain-power to try to wrap my head around some of the posts, so I skimmed many posts. I didn't realize there were others who said 100% recall, so I thought it was directed at me. All good  I do agree with ya. It's always 100% until the 1% happens, and the 1% might have been far worse than anyone else's 1% because they were too confident in the recall and didn't pay attention. A solid recall is not a substitute for an attentive and cautious owner.


Actually I was not talking about stuff only in this thread as the 100% thing has been sprinkled around through many, many threads. It never bothered me cause people say what they say. I am bothered more about the 65 lb Boxer I started this morning that thinks he's a walking Gymnast.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Actually I was not talking about stuff only in this thread as the 100% thing has been sprinkled around through many, many threads. It never bothered me cause people say what they say. I am bothered more about the 65 lb Boxer I started this morning that thinks he's a walking Gymnast.


I completely agree with the 100% junk; I've seen it quite a bit here and in other threads. But, personally, it does kinda bug me. It is a pet peeve of mine (no pun intended, well, maybe  )! 

I'm not a pessimist, but, so many, many things can affect 100% completion of ANYTHING! You can say your dog (or my 7 year old niece, for that matter) is 100% potty trained, but I'll bet there are a few circumstances where your dog (or my niece) would have a big old, icky accident. Like, they're sick, or got the poop scared out of them, or yadda yadda yadda.

You could also say you have 100% recall with your dog (or my niece), but I'm pretty sure there are just a few things out there, the right combination of circumstances, that could mess that recall up! For my niece, at least for the next day or two, til she gets interested in something else, it's motocross racing. If she was watching a race, and a bit tired and grumpy to begin with, and I said come here, she'd definitely take her darn time! 

Yes, if you've trained your dog (or my niece - you should really meet her sometime), and proofed the behaviors in lots of places/situations, etc, you can get closer and closer to 100%. And, some of you may say you already have 100%. BUT, maybe you just haven't run into the combination of circumstances that will trip up your 100%.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

-


doxiemommy said:


> I completely agree with the 100% junk; I've seen it quite a bit here and in other threads. But, personally, it does kinda bug me. It is a pet peeve of mine (no pun intended, well, maybe  )!
> 
> I'm not a pessimist, but, so many, many things can affect 100% completion of ANYTHING! You can say your dog (or my 7 year old niece, for that matter) is 100% potty trained, but I'll bet there are a few circumstances where your dog (or my niece) would have a big old, icky accident. Like, they're sick, or got the poop scared out of them, or yadda yadda yadda.
> 
> ...


In real life I have talked to future customers on phone and routinely ask what problems or what can they do with their dogs. I have had a couple that I did not have a clue after listening to what the dogs were doing obedience wise as to why/what they needed my services for. 

That is until they pulled into driveway and as I'm walking across yard they are unloading their wild child from the car. It must have been a different dog they were describing on phone cause it surely wasn't the dog that I was watching in this epic struggle between man and beast.

Did they not know when talking to me on the phone that I was actually gonna see/work/touch the dog. Now can you imagine the online training expertise description that some posters give that just might be a little different in real life.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> It must have been a different dog they were describing on phone cause it surely wasn't the dog that I was watching in this epic struggle between man and beast.


^^^^ /lol

I always do enjoy your posts.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

doxiemommy said:


> I completely agree with the 100% junk; I've seen it quite a bit here and in other threads. But, personally, it does kinda bug me. It is a pet peeve of mine (no pun intended, well, maybe  )!
> 
> I'm not a pessimist, but, so many, many things can affect 100% completion of ANYTHING! You can say your dog (or my 7 year old niece, for that matter) is 100% potty trained, but I'll bet there are a few circumstances where your dog (or my niece) would have a big old, icky accident. Like, they're sick, or got the poop scared out of them, or yadda yadda yadda.
> 
> ...


THIS. I'm under the belief that no dog is 100% with their training. People aren't perfect, dogs aren't perfect, and even with the most well behaved, well trained dog, mistakes are going to be made under certain circumstances/situations. This is where my issues with dog parks are. In the event that some jerk brings in an aggressive dog in, and a bad fight breaks out, a dog, no matter how well trained, no matter how well socialized, is GOING to fight back, just as any of us would if we were ever attacked by an animal or person. There is nothing else they can do when they have an aggressive dog on top of them, trying to rip them apart. I've been told by a lot of people that a dog that fights back isn't properly trained. I think a lot of people expect to much from their dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I've been told by a lot of people that a dog that fights back isn't properly trained.


Oh my, "turn the other cheek dogs" How marvelous, now I've heard everything, the inmates are running the asylum. Please feel free to smack the next idiot that says that, obviously you won't get hit back, so no worries.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Oh my, "turn the other cheek dogs" How marvelous, now I've heard everything, the inmates are running the asylum. Please feel free to smack the next idiot that says that, obviously you won't get hit back, so no worries.


I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks this is a totally asinine way of thinking.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Oh my, "turn the other cheek dogs" How marvelous, now I've heard everything, the inmates are running the asylum. Please feel free to smack the next idiot that says that, obviously you won't get hit back, so no worries.


Esther must be an Old Testament hound.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

RonE said:


> Esther must be an Old Testament hound.


Jubel too.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Eye For An Eye, also a good way for a dog to defend itself. I have no patience for dogs that start fights but respect the finisher types.


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## Jenn~n~Luke (Aug 20, 2010)

HerdersForMe said:


> You're assuming people train their dogs so they can show them off? That's just ridiculous. We train our dogs to keep them safe. Our 2 year old sheltie is nearly 100% reliable on his recall, leave it, and wait. Our 4.5 month old rough collie is nearing that same reliably on recall and is well on her way to learning leave it and wait. You think that it is arrogant to claim these things? No, these basic commands are essentials. They could _save your dog's life_ one day. They aren't for impressing people. They aren't just for using at the dog park. The vast majority of dog related incidents occur because the owner had no control over their dog. Will your dog ever be 100% predictable? No, but it's better than being 0%.


I am not _assuming_ anything. I see it all the time unfortunately. Both online and off, but admittedly, the majority of it is witnessed in dog forums and the like. I'll just use some common examples. I can not even begin to tell you how many times I see members post pics of their dogs, with the family children crawling all over, poking at, pulling on, the dog. How many times I read "My dog LOVES kids, he/she will sit there and let them poke,prod and ride him like a horse," "*MY* dog will *NEVER* bite, or even better..."my dog will never bite because *I trained* him to be..." And so, we who are reading or looking, just sit back and wait for the day when said poster comes back with the news that the dog must be re homed or euthanized when the poor thing has finally had enough and snapped. Perhaps and most likely, at the strange child who comes over for a visit or comes up to him in the street.

Better example...the person who talks about how they walk their perfectly trained dog who's never been on a leash before, down the sidewalk of the busiest street in the city, bragging that their dog would NEVER stray from their side, never get hit by a car, never engage in a fight or otherwise with another dog because "I trained them to behave perfectly and he has perfect recall or a perfect heel". Until of course, that one rare day when said dog ends up underneath a vehicle, or attacked by a strange dog or what have you. 

Yes, a lot of it is just plain arrogance. The human's belief that they always know what their dog is thinking, feeling and about to do, 24/7, every single day of it's entire life. You are exactly correct, training *is* about and SHOULD be about the dog, it's safety, well being, the ability to take your beloved friend and pet with you places and enjoy them safely. But as with all things human, there are a lot of people who think of dogs as something to control. You see a lot of it in the "I'm the alpha" types. Where the dog can't so much as sneeze without permission. Then it isn't about safety or well being for the dog at all. It's about a person who feels the need to be superior to SOMETHING, anything...and the poor dog just happens to be the one on the receiving end of it. 
Anyone who's been in dog forums online long enough knows you don't have to look far for the "My dog would NEVER..." people. And yes...maybe they will get lucky and that dog might never do any of those things. But me? I don't EVER say "never". Because whether it or not it ruins my "alpha" image or my abilities as a dog trainer, I will always be honest enough at the end of the day to admit that no matter how much I know Luke, I can never guarantee everything every time. That doesn't mean he's not well trained, or misbehaved,or that I've been lazy or lax with him. It simply means I recognize that despite the incredible close bond I share with this dog who literally holds my soul in his paws, he is still a dog and I cannot read his mind. There just may come a day when he does something unpredictable. So I don't set him up to fail to prove something to anyone.
I may know that he's never left my side...I can sit here and say "I can leave the door open and I know he won't leave this house without me" and you know? I would probably be right. But I'm not about to open my door and risk that chance just to prove my point.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Oh my, "turn the other cheek dogs" How marvelous, now I've heard everything, the inmates are running the asylum. Please feel free to smack the next idiot that says that, obviously you won't get hit back, so no worries.


and again...Chuck Norris wears Wvasko pajamas. (like)


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Jenn~n~Luke said:


> I am not _assuming_ anything. I see it all the time unfortunately. Both online and off, but admittedly, the majority of it is witnessed in dog forums and the like. I'll just use some common examples. I can not even begin to tell you how many times I see members post pics of their dogs, with the family children crawling all over, poking at, pulling on, the dog. How many times I read "My dog LOVES kids, he/she will sit there and let them poke,prod and ride him like a horse," "*MY* dog will *NEVER* bite, or even better..."my dog will never bite because *I trained* him to be..." And so, we who are reading or looking, just sit back and wait for the day when said poster comes back with the news that the dog must be re homed or euthanized when the poor thing has finally had enough and snapped. Perhaps and most likely, at the strange child who comes over for a visit or comes up to him in the street.
> 
> Better example...the person who talks about how they walk their perfectly trained dog who's never been on a leash before, down the sidewalk of the busiest street in the city, bragging that their dog would NEVER stray from their side, never get hit by a car, never engage in a fight or otherwise with another dog because "I trained them to behave perfectly and he has perfect recall or a perfect heel". Until of course, that one rare day when said dog ends up underneath a vehicle, or attacked by a strange dog or what have you.
> 
> ...


Geeze!! 
Every once in a while somebody steps up and hits a common sense ball right out of the ball park. Above is a home run, nuff said.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

My neighbor should read this thread :/


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Crap, I used the N-word. Now I have to add arrogance to my long list of faults.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Jenn~n~Luke said:


> I am not _assuming_ anything. I see it all the time unfortunately. Both online and off, but admittedly, the majority of it is witnessed in dog forums and the like. I'll just use some common examples. I can not even begin to tell you how many times I see members post pics of their dogs, with the family children crawling all over, poking at, pulling on, the dog. How many times I read "My dog LOVES kids, he/she will sit there and let them poke,prod and ride him like a horse," "*MY* dog will *NEVER* bite, or even better..."my dog will never bite because *I trained* him to be..." And so, we who are reading or looking, just sit back and wait for the day when said poster comes back with the news that the dog must be re homed or euthanized when the poor thing has finally had enough and snapped. Perhaps and most likely, at the strange child who comes over for a visit or comes up to him in the street.
> 
> Better example...the person who talks about how they walk their perfectly trained dog who's never been on a leash before, down the sidewalk of the busiest street in the city, bragging that their dog would NEVER stray from their side, never get hit by a car, never engage in a fight or otherwise with another dog because "I trained them to behave perfectly and he has perfect recall or a perfect heel". Until of course, that one rare day when said dog ends up underneath a vehicle, or attacked by a strange dog or what have you.
> 
> ...


THIS!!! ^^^^
This is exactly why it irks me when people say their dog has 100% this or 100% that. IMO, it's always possible that you get just the right mix of circumstances and a dog may do something unpredictable. A dog is a living, breathing being who has a personality, and has some cognitive function, and makes choices, and someday, one of those choices just may go against that 100% guarantee the owner has been making, for whatever unpredictable reason.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Old school Pro-trainers might have an edge because of aversives used and dogs having less choices in life. Oh my, I suppose that will start a debate. My opinion only though.


Well, of course there are many people who consider less behavior = good behavior. The thing is, no matter how the dog is trained, he always has a choice. The better trained he is, the more he's likely to make the choice you want. With recalls, the BEST recall is one that is so strongly conditioned the dog doesn't stop to make a choice, he just responds. That of course, doesn't come without a fair amount of work. Some of the dogs I've met trained with aversives are clever enough to learn that they have a choice when you can't "get em" (not on a line, no shock collar). That's a problem with aversives - dogs figure out how to avoid them in ways you didn't count on. But a good recall trained in any way is one where the dog is no longer confused about what is wanted or taking time to weigh his options. (My opinion/experience only, of course)


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Lol sassafras, Squashes face in your avatar says it all!  

I never say "they are trained" I say that "I manage them so they look trained" lol lol. I never expect them to act a certain way BC they "know" they should, but on the other hand I always manage them so I dont have to worry about it.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

I have a very high drive Rottie who actually HAS a 100% recall. So far. I also have horses so we practice recall and downs all day long, since that's how I got her to leave the horses alone after hanging in their tails as a tiny puppy. I don't like her eating everything she finds on the ground either, so her "leave it" is as impressive. Thank goodness.
She was attacked last summer, she was attacked by a Yorkshire terrier. Or rather, the yorkie came towards me and she was on the other side of me so she answered as any protective rottie would. Because of her training she stopped when I called "leave it" and stood over the yorkie who quieted (imagine that!) and then looked over at me for further instructions. 
Would I completely trust her in a dog park? No way! Or, I'd trust HER, but since I don't trust all other dogs not to make aggressive moves towards her there's no way I'd let her into a dog park with dogs we don't know well.

edited to add: she's trained positively ... there's almost always a ball involved in recall and so much fun to come when called.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

My neighbor also has a dog who has a brilliant recall. 100%. She lets him out in the yard with no management (long line, fence) and he ALWAYS comes back. Every. Single. Time. 

Until two weeks ago when he got one look at my cat. Now my cat is dead because she was SO SURE that Riley had a perfect recall. Oh, and the owner was even in the back yard when it all went down, and she was yelling, come, no, leave it! All these commands that her dog was 100% with just 1 minute before.

So for all of you with those wonderful, perfect dogs with recalls that never fail, good for you. However, think about if your willing to put your dogs life and the lives of others at risk to prove it. Unfortunately, I will never get to see, smell or touch Simon again because my neighbor decided that it was worth it.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Are you saying that your neighbor shouldn't have had her dog loose in the back yard because your cat could get in there? If it were in OUR backyard (or rather, on the 5 acres she can roam on our farm) I'm not sure if I would get an instant recall if a cat came in. It has worked more than once both with cats and dogs at other places though. It works with squirrels and deer too ...

Having said that; it obviously depends on the situation AND both the dog and handler at the time if any command is instant and works 100%. If the handler doesn't react in time and the drive really has set in it might be difficult or if the dog is hungry or just in a bad mod. I think most of us who state that our dogs have a 100% recall (or whatever) say it because that's how it has worked so far. 

Now, if anything at all were attacking me all bets are off. She tends to take her breed's instinct a tad too seriously. When the neighbors dog attacked me on our farm she wouldn't come, but stood between me and the dog until I started moving towards her ... than she kept the distance to me, still closer to the dog, until we had flushed it out through the fence. (The neighbors dog attacked her when she ran in between us, but when I threw my shoes, lol, at the neighbors dog she backed up but I was still several feet away from Mandy)


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Prior to just a couple of posts ago, did anyone in this thread actually claim their dog has 100% recall? I skimmed through but didn't see any.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

hast said:


> Are you saying that your neighbor shouldn't have had her dog loose in the back yard because your cat could get in there? If it were in OUR backyard (or rather, on the 5 acres she can roam on our farm) I'm not sure if I would get an instant recall if a cat came in. It has worked more than once both with cats and dogs at other places though. It works with squirrels and deer too ...


I've called my dogs off a number of things (including bunnies, cats, etc.) So far it has always worked, but I would never swear that it was 100%. I did not get from the post whether the cat was in the neighbor's yard, or in it's own yard that the dog had access to. I'm sorry he lost his life. It's one reason (along with cars) that my cats have a large enclosed area outside.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

hast said:


> Are you saying that your neighbor shouldn't have had her dog loose in the back yard because your cat could get in there? If it were in OUR backyard (or rather, on the 5 acres she can roam on our farm) I'm not sure if I would get an instant recall if a cat came in. It has worked more than once both with cats and dogs at other places though. It works with squirrels and deer too ...


I will answer your question but I simply told my story to show that it does happen and animals/people do get hurt. 

My neighbors do not have a fenced in yard. I have a fenced in yard. Simon was walking along the (outside) fence line at the back of my property (which borders woods) when Riley attacked him. Technically, Simon was still on my property but animals do not understand property lines and rights. 

The fact that you can say 'you are not sure if you could get an instant recall if a cat came in' says it all. That is not 100% then, is it? Are you willing to live with yourself if your dog kills a domestic animal? (These are rhetoric, so no need for answers.)

Of course, you are allowed to do as you wish. I would never tell you or anyone else for that matter what they should or should not to with their animals. It is your property, your dog, your liability.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Yes, I could live with myself if my dog killed a cat on our property. I could since the only other alternative is to always have her leashed at home and that's not an alternative. I THINK she would back off, like she did with the fox she was chasing a while back, or the cat she chased last year. We haven't had any cat on the property since, so it's hard to know. I would not guarantee anything, but recall is worked with every day. e.v.e.r.y s.i.n.g.l.e. d.a.y so it is pretty well conditioned.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

I agree prey drive is not an excuse. The yorkie had just as much of a right to be there as you. He was still someones pet and they loved him very much. What happened if your dog was killed by somone elses dog that was much bigger than yours. Wouldn't you think you had the right to be there and they should ahve been paying attention to their dog. If you go back to a dog park I would make sure you have your dogs leashed since they are not predictable. I have only taken my dog to a dog park a couple times since he is older, but I always have him on a leash, because I want him by me in case another dog trys to go after him which happend once. We were just walking and a dog just ran up to us and attacked him. The owners just laughed. I was quite mad. If you dont know how he will react keep control of him. Here is my vicous boy. As say prey drive is not an excuse. I hope you are able to learn from this happening.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

your pictures just reminded me  the siberian husky we had when i was growing up used to LOVE our paper boy's ferret. he would proudly walk around with the ferret on his back. he would be beside himself silly when he saw the ferret. <3 i miss him.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

My boy loves my 4 piggys. He will sleep by them and when other dogs are over he wont even let them by the cage. He loves to cuddle the when they are out of the cage. He also loves cats to. At my dads house he will go out of his way to get to the cat and wants to lay down with them. He has a prefect recall and will listen to me no matter what he sees. Even if he is in the mits of running and I say stop he will stop dead in his tracks.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

hast said:


> Yes, I could live with myself if my dog killed a cat on our property. I could since the only other alternative is to always have her leashed at home and that's not an alternative. I THINK she would back off, like she did with the fox she was chasing a while back, or the cat she chased last year. We haven't had any cat on the property since, so it's hard to know. I would not guarantee anything, but recall is worked with every day. e.v.e.r.y s.i.n.g.l.e. d.a.y so it is pretty well conditioned.


Apparently the cat was not on the dog owner's property. I live with the fact that my dogs have killed bunnies when I am not with them to call them off (care less about the derned rabbits than the fact I have to then worm them for tapes). I did have one gorgeous long haired white cat who was hunting in my garden on a regular basis. Alice cornered her in an outbuilding (came when I called her) but apparently scared the cat bad enough that she didn't come back. Which pleased me because she was a pretty thing.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

I did say Smokey had a perfect recall, but like it was said no person or dog is perfect. Most of the time I take Smokey for a ride in the car he always likes to zap off to the same tree by out apt I tell him to come he will stop, but continue to sniff for a second until I say now then he will come right away. Some dogs just have that stubborn streak or they just act like they can't hear you, but if you think you dog is dangerous then keep him on a leash.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

Iorek has nearly 100% NO recall. Haha! He has gotten much better since Brom came around


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

+Two: I'm very sorry about your cat


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

ioreks_mom said:


> Iorek has nearly 100% NO recall. Haha! He has gotten much better since Brom came around


I see pattern starting, a 3rd dog would help with Brom and a 4th dog to help with 3rd dog and so on and so forth. At least that's the way I've handled it, only problem is, I now have a bunch of dogs running around and I've forgotten most of their names


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## jenz (Aug 20, 2010)

> Yes, I could live with myself if my dog killed a cat on our property.


We've had 2 cats come into our fenced backyard (6 foot stockade)--unfortunately both incidents ended REALLY badly for both cats. I wish people would keep them indoors!!!! Ugh. It was heartbreaking.



> Iorek has nearly 100% NO recall.


Iorek may be related to my dogs? My hounds and terrier mix ignore me like the PLAGUE unless the word "cookie" is involved.  However, I'm nearly 100% certain that even screaming "COOKIE! COOKIE!!!!!!!!" would not call them off a running squirrel or cat. Squirrels and Cats are probably "the ultimate cookie". 

Jen

PS- Frillant, your husky (?) is beautiful! Love the pics.


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

frillint said:


> We were just walking and a dog just ran up to us and attacked him. *The owners just laughed*. I was quite mad.


Seriously!? What did you say or do? The nerve of some people...


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

Coco has nearly zero recall right now, too. Maybe if I carry paper towels around with me and start waving them at her she'll come more readily. She loves paper towels.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> I see pattern starting, a 3rd dog would help with Brom and a 4th dog to help with 3rd dog and so on and so forth. At least that's the way I've handled it, only problem is, I now have a bunch of dogs running around and I've forgotten most of their names


Having many dogs that you don't remember the name of running around in your life sounds like a nice situation to be in. 

I'm still dreaming of having my own husky and malamute sled team!


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

wvasko said:


> I see pattern starting, a 3rd dog would help with Brom and a 4th dog to help with 3rd dog and so on and so forth. At least that's the way I've handled it, only problem is, I now have a bunch of dogs running around and I've forgotten most of their names


haha! no, i don't think that would work  iorek was just so uninterested in us when we got him that nothing would make him come, not even a nice chunk of raw meat. everything outside was just that much more interesting. iorek will mostly come now when he sees brom coming back. brom is not fantastic at coming back but he is getting better all the time. it is all my fault for not training him with it. but, he is the type of dog that likes to be close anyway. (they are never off leash, we have 100 foot leashes for the ball field since it is not fenced) i have control unleashed to work with iorek and his anxiety or reactivity or whatever it is. i am going to seriously start that training soon.



jenz said:


> Iorek may be related to my dogs? My hounds and terrier mix ignore me like the PLAGUE unless the word "cookie" is involved.  However, I'm nearly 100% certain that even screaming "COOKIE! COOKIE!!!!!!!!" would not call them off a running squirrel or cat. Squirrels and Cats are probably "the ultimate cookie".


haha! iorek will now turn his head and look at us most times when we call him outside. that is after months of training! we were lucky to get an ear turn at first. and that is at the end of a 5 foot leash! we are hoping to have a fence built sometime this fall and i am expecting getting iorek back in the house to be a chore... haha!



lisahi said:


> Coco has nearly zero recall right now, too. Maybe if I carry paper towels around with me and start waving them at her she'll come more readily. She loves paper towels.


haha! that is such a funny image! waving paper towels in the air and calling coco! heehee! sorry, it just really made a funny visual


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

lisahi said:


> Coco has nearly zero recall right now, too. Maybe if I carry paper towels around with me and start waving them at her she'll come more readily. She loves paper towels.


Wow, 50 yrs and I have never used paper towels as a training tool, so much to learn, so little time.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL, I've used paper towels as a "reward" before. They're awesome for working on "leave it/take it" with Squash because he LOVES them.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

snotty tissue papers under old peoples chairs at the nursing home was THE hardest to get Mandy to leave. I have to be really proactive and check the floor out when we visit (she's a therapy dog) so I can tell her to ignore it before she's going for it. Otherwise she vacuums it into her mouth and ... GAG ... can't spit it out so I have to get my fingers in to get it out of her mouth.


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

hast said:


> snotty tissue papers under old peoples chairs at the nursing home was THE hardest to get Mandy to leave. I have to be really proactive and check the floor out when we visit (she's a therapy dog) so I can tell her to ignore it before she's going for it. Otherwise she vacuums it into her mouth and ... GAG ... can't spit it out so I have to get my fingers in to get it out of her mouth.


I don't even want to count the number of times I've had to stick my fingers in Coco's mouth and pull out something gross. This morning it was dried poop from one of the neighbor dogs. Ugh.

Also reminded me that Coco has a great affinity for toilet paper. I haven't had my toilet paper on the roll for weeks. It sits on top of the toilet tank. I'm just waiting for her to figure out that she can actually jump up there.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I guess that the OP didn't like what we said lol. 
Squirrels are the prey of choice here, I hate squirrels, they live to torment dogs I think lol, cats NP, they have a solid leave it & as soon as I utter the word, they come running back (I have conditioned them to immediately return back to me at any utterance of a *negative* word). I am lucky, there is a teacup Chihuahua here that likes to pick fights, my dogs ignore her & move away, but when she starts in taunting my dogs & chasing them away from their own home (we live in a mobile home on the ranch where we work) I will scoop her up & take her back to her house lol lol.


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## peznite (Oct 21, 2009)

The original poster is the reason for 99% of dog attacks/deaths in this world.

The type of person usually has a little ego with their dogs, thinks they're really good with dogs, thinks their dogs are perfect. Then they go into the real world and shit goes wrong and they try grasp at straws by placing the blame on the victim of their stupidity & ignorance.


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## shaunna (Jul 14, 2011)

I have two little 5 lb yorkies (females). I would NEVER bring them to a dog park. It's way too risky! Even when I bring them to a children's park where dogs are allowed on leash, I keep them zipped up in their stroller. It's stories like this that confirm to me that I am not as much of a "freaky, paranoid, overly-protective" Mama, as I think I am.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

dogdragoness said:


> I guess that the OP didn't like what we said lol.
> Squirrels are the prey of choice here, I hate squirrels, they live to torment dogs I think lol, cats NP, they have a solid leave it & as soon as I utter the word, they come running back (I have conditioned them to immediately return back to me at any utterance of a *negative* word). I am lucky, there is a teacup Chihuahua here that likes to pick fights, my dogs ignore her & move away, but when she starts in taunting my dogs & chasing them away from their own home (we live in a mobile home on the ranch where we work) I will scoop her up & take her back to her house lol lol.


I'm quite the opposite. I feed the squirrels so they'll stick around and I can use them for training. 
Kaki does something I like and she gets a treat. She does something I love and she gets a release to chase a squirrel. If I'm feeling really smooth, I'll call her back to me mid chase and immidietely release her onto a different squirrel if she comes and sits properly.

Thanks to squirrels, we have a very entusiatic(squirmy) recall. Love 'em.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

Yes, he is a husky/german shepherd mix. Yes, I couldn't believe they just laughed. I even had him on a leash, as he is not playful and I was a little worried about other dogs jumping on him and him getting mad or somthing so he was on a short lead. We ended up just leaving we were on our way out anyway when the dog was running up the hill and attacked him. It only lasted a second or two, because I pulled smokey out of the way and the dog kept running.



Fuzzy Pants said:


> Seriously!? What did you say or do? The nerve of some people...


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