# 'Dog Whisperer' seeking wolf hybrid dog owners



## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Link to story:
http://www.whittierdailynews.com/ci_12675189?source=rss

Link to NG website with call for entrants:
http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/dogwhisperer/submissions.php

Link to interesting discussion on Nicole Wilde's blog:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/wolfdogs-don’t-need-whispering

Don't mean to start yet another love-hate Milan thread here. I'm just interested in opinions from those with experience with wolf hybrids. WDYT? I'll reserve my own opinion since I have no experience with hybrids to back it up. I'm curious about whether others think that methods for training hybrids should be different from those used with regular dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I saw an episode the other day where he dealt with a couple of wolf hybrids. He did try everything the same as he would with a dog, and it was obvious to me that it wasn't working with the female wolf/dog. And then he told the owners that they could take her to the dog park! He told them they had to "choose the dogs at the dog park", and I don't know how anyone could do that. I think that advice is entirely irresponsible. I hope that he realized that was bad advice and that's why he wants to work with more wolf/dogs, to get more experience.

On that episode, the wolf/dogs' owners' yard looked like Fort Knox, LOL! 10-foot fence, reinforcements, etc.


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## RubyLove (May 4, 2009)

Does anyone have a link to where I could see that episode? Or any past episodes? I have never seen the show, but have read a lot of threads about his techniques, and it sounds like interesting entertainment, even if it isn't something I could/would translate into my dogs training.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

winniec777 said:


> I'm curious about whether others think that methods for training hybrids should be different from those used with regular dogs.


The laws by which the animal learns does not change from one animal to the next. The application of the laws will change dependent on the individual animal and the context. This would be true if you talking about dogs, hybrids, or wolves and coyotes. So in answering your question, _do the methods change?_, no not necessarily. We'd have to know which animal, which handler, and what's being taught.


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## Cesare Borgia (Jun 22, 2009)

Hybrids are more inteligent and mature slower, the one my neighbors had was too smart to fall for some of the tricks MY dogs fell for, they also require more attention.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> The laws by which the animal learns does not change from one animal to the next. The application of the laws will change dependent on the individual animal and the context. This would be true if you talking about dogs, hybrids, or wolves and coyotes. So in answering your question, _do the methods change?_, no not necessarily. We'd have to know which animal, which handler, and what's being taught.


I don't necessarily agree with that. I'm not so sure that an expert dog trainer (whatever and whomever that might be) would be qualified to train a killer whale or vice versa.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> I'm not so sure that an expert dog trainer (whatever and whomever that might be) would be qualified to train a killer whale or vice versa.


Where did I imply *a* dog trainer is qualified to train a whale? I specifically stated we'd have to know which animal, which handler, and what's being trained, in order to know.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I think from Nicole Wilde's blog at DogStarDaily her biggest concern is that using P+ (punishment and corrections) on a wolfdog would be the biggest issue due to an increased sensitivity to threat (based in wild instinct). Her other concern is that if hybrid owners came forward that their wolfdogs may be put at risk because in many states they are illegal.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Cracker said:


> I think from Nicole Wilde's blog at DogStarDaily her biggest concern is that using P+ (punishment and corrections) on a wolfdog would be the biggest issue due to an increased sensitivity to threat (based in wild instinct). Her other concern is that if hybrid owners came forward that their wolfdogs may be put at risk because in many states they are illegal.



bingo. ditto. winner!

Hybrids run the gamut from wolfy looking dogs to doggy looking wolves and everything in between. 

Wolves are *hardwired* in such a way that they don't respond to people like dogs do. If he gets a wolfdog with that kind of wiring...


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

I heard about this development on a couple of wolfdog lists I belong to.

I'm really not happy about it at all. Since Cesar's show showcases "the worst of the worst" and owners are at their wit's end when they bring dogs to Cesar, I feel that the many well-behaved wolfdogs aren't going to be represented (of course). I want to believe that the public view of these canines will improve because of exposure on Dog Whisperer (he's been influential with pitbull advocacy, am I right on that?), but part of me just thinks it will show wolfdogs at their worst, which can't be good overall.

I think the training methods are largely the same between dogs and wolfdogs, but the issues you're likely to run into might be different, and the time it takes to train them will likely be longer. 

I agree that the dominance/punishment just does NOT work on wolfdogs. In my experience, you'll either have a confident wolfdog that will challenge you when you use these kinds of techniques, or a very submissive wolfdog who will just lose all trust in you. Depends on their basic personality. 

I've had both here - Yuki was very confident, didn't back down from perceived challenges and was very assertive. I'm sure that if someone lifted a hand to him or was rough with him, he would not have hesitated to defend himself. On the other hand, Jasper just melts at any kind of firm handling. Today, he got himself tangled in his leash while we were walking, and I tripped from him suddenly jerking on the tangled mess he had made. I bumped into him a little hard while I was trying to get my balance, and he thought I was punishing him. He rolled onto his back and peed! Just from the perceived physical affront. 

These kinds of responses don't surprise me at all. From what I've observed, wolfdogs are very cut-and-dried in their body language and responses, and they "speak" LOUD and CLEAR. I think it was Turid Rugaas who said that wolves communicate in capital letters due to their need to survive, while dogs speak in much smaller letters. A wolfdog's reaction to any stimulus, including punishment, is likely to be more extreme because of this simple fact.

On the other hand, positive reinforcement works beautifully with wolfdogs, both in my experience, and the experience of several trainers who have written articles for Wolfdogs Magazine (yes, there is such a publication), as well as Nicole Wilde, who, IMO, is the leading behaviorist working openly with wolfdogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Wolves are *hardwired* in such a way that they don't respond to people like dogs do. If he gets a wolfdog with that kind of wiring...


Yeah, that's how the female hybrid in the episode I saw was. She really did not respond to him like dogs do, and I honestly thought she was going to take his face off at one point. I think he believes dogs are wolves/wolves are dogs, and I don't think that's a good idea at all. I'll see if I can find a video or synopsis of the episode.......

Here's one, but it's an upcoming episode and not the one I saw: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3252/Videos#tab-Videos/05198_00

Here it is, the wolves' names are Hyde and Vada. Hyde is more dog-like, Vada is VERY wolf-like: http://www.fancast.com/tv/Dog-Whisperer/95214/1117581913/Hyde,-Vada-and-Nacho/videos


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> I saw an episode the other day where he dealt with a couple of wolf hybrids. He did try everything the same as he would with a dog, and it was obvious to me that it wasn't working with the female wolf/dog. And then he told the owners that they could take her to the dog park! He told them they had to "choose the dogs at the dog park", and I don't know how anyone could do that. I think that advice is entirely irresponsible. I hope that he realized that was bad advice and that's why he wants to work with more wolf/dogs, to get more experience.
> 
> On that episode, the wolf/dogs' owners' yard looked like Fort Knox, LOL! 10-foot fence, reinforcements, etc.


Is this one of them?

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3252/Overview#tab-Videos/05198_00

This one gets me every time.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> On that episode, the wolf/dogs' owners' yard looked like Fort Knox, LOL! 10-foot fence, reinforcements, etc.


 Welcome to wolfdog ownership!!  I really believe you have to own acreage in order to keep these guys without losing your sanity.

We're building a new 1/4 acre enclosure for Jasper (wolfdog) and Willow and Bandit (dogs, Willow may be a very low-content wolfdog though). It will have an 8' high, 6-gauge wire fence with an electric wire on top, and 4' of dig guard staked to the ground around the inside perimeter, plus a double-gated entry.

It's Fort Knox alright... these guys can jump, climb, chew and dig in a way that puts Huskies to SHAME.

Take a look at this pic - 










That wolfdog is scaling a 10' fence.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

RubyLove said:


> Does anyone have a link to where I could see that episode? Or any past episodes?


HULU has a few episodes of TDW. The episode in question can be viewed, in full, *here*. The wolf hybrids are the first segment.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

I've got a real problem with this. I've defended CM in the past, and I'll reserve full judgment until after the show airs, but I think wolf hybrids have no place in human society. Wolves are not dogs, and dogs are not wolves; the evolutionary history of both has selected for very different behavioral patterns which are very, very dangerous for people to muck around with. 

One of the biggest behavioral differences is flight distance - how close you can approach before the animal attempts to flee. Historically, wolves that got too close to human settlements were killed on sight, so the ones that survived are the ones that instinctively stayed away from humans. By contrast, the dogs scavenging in ancient village waste dumps had to be comfortable around humans in order to eat. The dogs that thrived were the ones that could "communicate" - that is, read human behaviors to know when to flee and when it was safe, and behave in a manner that humans would read as non-threatening. When you start breeding hybrids as pets, what you effectively have are animals with a random assortment of wolf instincts and anatomy, which are not afraid of humans. 

All things considered, this is a very, very bad idea.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Independent George said:


> I've got a real problem with this. I've defended CM in the past, and I'll reserve full judgment until after the show airs, but I think wolf hybrids have no place in human society. Wolves are not dogs, and dogs are not wolves; the evolutionary history of both has selected for very different behavioral patterns which are very, very dangerous for people to muck around with.


I think the rescue work that nekomi and other people do (rehoming abandoned wolfdogs) is great. I've been thinking about wolfdogs a lot since I joined dog forums, and I've come to the conclusion ... that I think it should be illegal to breed them anywhere in the US. But not illegal to own them, because the dogs that get born shouldn't be punished for the errors of the people who bred them.

Nekomi, what do you think about this? I know you are a strong advocate for wolfdogs, and from reading a bunch of your posts about them it's very apparent that you love them -- but does a part of you still feel like it would be in the best interests of humans, dogs, wolves, and wolfdogs for their breeding to be ended?

It makes me sad to think about the difficult lives that so many wolfdogs end up living, for human vanity.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> Nekomi, what do you think about this? I know you are a strong advocate for wolfdogs, and from reading a bunch of your posts about them it's very apparent that you love them -- but does a part of you still feel like it would be in the best interests of humans, dogs, wolves, and wolfdogs for their breeding to be ended?


That is such a great question! My position on this issue has evolved over time. I guess here are my thoughts, in brief:

1. In the vast, vast, majority of cases, I don't believe they should continue to be bred. I should make that clear upfront... I am 100% for rescuing and rehabbing them, 100% for legal ownership, 100% for education instead of myth surrounding these guys. But, not for the majority of breeding that is being done out there. For example, the breeders who produce low-contents and exaggerate the percentage in their pups, or the breeders who breed random pairings of low and mid contents just as a hobby. 

2. Why? Practically speaking, the market, actually society, simply cannot support it. The number of wolfdogs being produced FAR outweighs the number of qualified, competent homes. Because the chances of a particular litter all making it into a good, qualified home, and then being properly socialized and raised into well-behaved, respectable canine citizens is slim-to-none. The reality is, most of them will end up raised improperly, under-socialized, and turned in to the local shelter, and then, if they are lucky, forwarded into our rescue network. If they are not so lucky, they might end up forgotten chained outside for their life, or worse, involved in a bite incident that tarnishes the reputation of all the wolfdogs owned by responsible folks. 

3. Add-on to previous point... it is my personal belief that wolfdogs, even low-to-mid contents, are significantly more "aware" and sensitive than domestic dogs. These animals are incredibly intelligent, and from what I have seen, can become emotionally damaged MUCH more easily, and deeply, than dogs. After working with them for so long, there is a level of individual awareness (I want to say sentience, but I know that's a loaded word) present that makes it very difficult for me to believe they are suitable as "pets". They have significant containment and enrichment needs in order to stay mentally healthy (think of parrots, they constantly need to play and use their minds in order to keep from going crazy). Most people cannot provide this level of stimulation (although I know many incredible people who do). I shudder when I think of these animals left to languish on a chain or in a small pen. I would rather they not be bred, than to know that they are suffering this way.

4. Contrary to popular belief, there ARE a handful of actual GOOD breeders out there, that are respected even by the rescue community. They are USDA licensed facilities, generally breed very high-contents, from long-standing domesticated lines of wolves, and sell only to legit outreach and educational facilities. Their animals never end up in the rescue network, because these breeders take them back if they are ever in need. I can count the number of such breeders on one hand. You never hear about them because unlike the hobby/backyard wolfdog breeders, they tend not to advertise - they don't need to. Because I would hate to see them punished unfairly, next point:

5. I don't think wolfdog breeding should be legislated by the government. (But that is another topic, I am generally against legislation for most animal ownership issues, please don't take that the wrong way, I hate puppy mills as much as the next person.) Still, though, the irresponsible, random breeding of wolfdogs absolutely needs to stop. In an ideal world, pressure from the community and boycotting would do the trick, but I know that realistically it will take legislation. 

6. OK, rereading your question here is my breakdown - 

Would it be in the best interest of humans to end the breeding of wolfdogs? Not necessarily... I don't think they are a sufficiently dangerous animal to say they are a major public health or safety risk. But, if you mean damages to furniture, home, etc. and damages to sanity, maybe it would be in mankind's best interest?  (just kidding)

In the best interest of dogs? Hard to say... I think dogs have so many problems of their own (BYB, puppy mills, random "designer" breeds) that wolfdog breedings are hardly a factor. (Nearly all wolfdogs bred today come from wolfdog x wolfdog pairings anyway.)

In the best interest of wolves? This is, for me, the most difficult question to answer. Wild wolves are actually largely unaffected by the mere existence of wolfdogs, since wild wolves are, to my knowledge, never used in breeding wolfdogs (I doubt that it's legal). Domesticated lines of wolves that have been bred in captivity for decades generally form the basis for wolfdog stock, and even then, these days a pure wolf ancestor is generally many generations away. However, a case could be made that depending on the public's basic view on wolfdogs, their sympathy towards the plight of wild wolves could be impacted. For example, I'd imagine that every wolfdog bite incident covered on the news would have a negative effect on the wild wolf recovery/reintroduction effort. However, every positive exposure for wolfdogs - whether that means at an educational event, or the actions of a responsible private owner - likely improves the public image of wild wolves, and actually aids in their recovery. I know that personally, since meeting and working with many wolfdogs, my feelings towards wild wolves have really awakened much more strongly. I identify with them in a way that makes them feel more like family, and less like just another species in trouble. I know that many wolfdog owners and rescuers feel exactly the same way.

And for wolfdogs? Yes, I believe it is definitely in their best interest for breeding to end. There are many wonderful primitive breeds out there that are infinitely easier to handle but have many of the same "wolfy" characteristics. (Northern breeds of course, but also Canadian Inuit Dogs, Siberian Laikas, Shikoku-ken, Tamaskan Dogs, etc.) When wolfdog ownership is banned in my state (and sadly, it is likely just a matter of time), this is the direction I will go... to the very primitive breeds, where I can continue to use my experiences and knowledge. 

OK, sorry for the long post but I hope it provides some food for thought.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Thank you very much for your response. It does indeed provide food for thought.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> And for wolfdogs? Yes, I believe it is definitely in their best interest for breeding to end. There are many wonderful primitive breeds out there that are infinitely easier to handle but have many of the same "wolfy" characteristics. (Northern breeds of course, but also Canadian Inuit Dogs, Siberian Laikas, Shikoku-ken, Tamaskan Dogs, etc.) When wolfdog ownership is banned in my state (and sadly, it is likely just a matter of time), this is the direction I will go... to the very primitive breeds, where I can continue to use my experiences and knowledge.


I and a lot of unborn wolf hybrids that won't be abused etc thank you very much. If the people would only listen.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

Willowy said:


> And then he told the owners that they could take her to the dog park! He told them they had to "choose the dogs at the dog park", and I don't know how anyone could do that. I think that advice is entirely irresponsible.


The owners said their goal was to take them to the dog park - and he cautioned that the dog park dogs weren't balanced like his dogs are - and (at 6:30 in the hulu episode) he said (paraphrased) your dogs aren't harmonious at home. How can you take them to a dog park and expect them to be harmonious? And in the follow up, after they had harmony at home, they said they're doing it all the time now and everything is fine. 

The language barrier gets in the way sometimes. When he says "You have to choose the dogs at the dog park", it means you have to go there when there are balanced dogs there. 

It's amazing how the facts can be twisted to serve an agenda... 

Cesar was very gentle with the wolfdogs and even told the woman that she was being too harsh. 

I thought it was a great episode and look forward to the new one. The food aggression/resource guarding and other issues disappeared and in the follow up session, the fear aggression with other dogs was also dealt with.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

I should add that I have enormous admiration for the rescue work Nekomi does; my issue is with the fact that rescue is even needed in the first place. I agree that legislation is not the asnwer - I have distinct libertarian instincts on issues such as these - but I can't think of too many cases where 'responsible owner' and 'wolfdog' go together. I understand that there people out there with the knowledge & resources to care for these animals, and they should not be penalized for the stupidity of others. 

My main worry is the same one that matches my feelings regarding DW in general - I feel that people at home watch CM in action, and think they can do the same thing. Unlike others here, I have no problem with CM's techniques - when it'd done by CM. The problem is that way too many wannabes see what he does without understanding why & how he does it, start randomly smacking & alpha rolling their dogs, get bit, surrender the dog as 'dominant-aggressive'. Then the dog gets put to sleep, the people get another dog, and the cycle repeats. 

My biggest worry is that the show will feature CM doing what CM does, smiling with the dogs after 15 minutes, and then there will be a huge rush of people buying wolfodgs because it looks so easy and they think they can handle it.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

FourIsCompany said:


> I thought it was a great episode and look forward to the new one. The food aggression/resource guarding and other issues disappeared and in the follow up session, the fear aggression with other dogs was also dealt with.


I don't think the dog aggression issue was resolved. In fact, I think almost no headway was made. He makes her lie down, he tugs her leash, he kicks and pokes her, to no avail. Even when she is superficially controlled, she remains tense, and as soon as another dog gets too close she snaps. She is never out of the "red zone" (his term). At the end Milan just stops trying to get her close to the other dogs. I'm glad that when they show them going to the dog park at the end, she is wearing a muzzle.

It wasn't fear aggression, it was just straight up aggression. (Although she does get a little scared when surrounded by Milan's dogs at his compound.)


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> My biggest worry is that the show will feature CM doing what CM does, smiling with the dogs after 15 minutes, and then there will be a huge rush of people buying wolfodgs because it looks so easy and they think they can handle it.


I completely agree with you here. But there is a saving grace (for the wolfdogs' sake)... 

The majority of people buying a wolfdog after watching CM will not do their research. (The ones that do, will either do the right thing and rescue, after building proper containment and educating themselves, or just not get a wolfdog at all.)

Therefore, it's highly likely that the vast majority of these people won't end up with true wolfdogs at all, but rather the husky/Shepherd/Great Pyr/etc. mixes that are bred alllll over the country and sold as wolfdogs. Without a lot of research, it's nearly impossible for the common person to identify the real McCoy. As I've experienced and many others on the forum have too, I'd say at least 70% of the animals out there, owned in private homes and labeled as "wolfdogs", either have no wolf in them at all, or significantly less than advertised. 

This is a deceitful and shameful practice by the BYBs selling these misadvertised animals, but for real wolfdogs it is a huge insurance policy. If everyone who claims they have a wolfdog REALLY had the real thing... well, the mind boggles.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> I don't think the dog aggression issue was resolved.


Watch the conclusion at 45:25. The owners talk about their progress at the dog park. I didn't say it was resolved, I said it was dealt with. The dogs were progressing nicely, to the satisfaction of the owners... WHat more could you ask for?  

Hyde and Vada


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## WendyLady (Jun 28, 2009)

Independent George said:


> My biggest worry is that the show will feature CM doing what CM does, smiling with the dogs after 15 minutes, and then there will be a huge rush of people buying wolfodgs because it looks so easy and they think they can handle it.


Oh boy, I sure hope not. I saw this episode & what I got from it was "OMG that animal was never meant to be in captivity."

The studies that have been done on wolves vs. dogs show that wolves are simply not wired to respond to people. Wolf hybrids I have no experience with - but watching that show reinforced what I would have already thought - it's just not a good idea for the average person.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> The studies that have been done on wolves vs. dogs show that wolves are simply not wired to respond to people.


Are you talking about the study that was done, where humans pointed to hidden food and the dogs followed the human's hand to find the food, but the wolves would not do the same thing? It seemed to suggest that wolves were not capable of responding to human cues in the same way as dogs. (link to study)

A newer study is showing that the results may not be as cut-and-dried as the previous study suggested. Here is a link to a similar experiment that was done, that came to the completely opposite conclusion, that "domestication is not a prerequisite for human-like social cognition in canids" (quote from study). It points out several major flaws with the previous study and proves that the method of testing in the previous experiment likely caused the results to be skewed.

This is a REALLY interesting article and I'd encourage anyone interested in wolves to read it. It has not only a very thorough description of the testing process, but also photographs, charts, and drawings explaining how the test was conducted. Very cool. 

http://www.biol.ttu.edu/faculty/bel...or (Zool 4312)/dogs social skills refuted.pdf


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

canteloupe said:


> I don't think the dog aggression issue was resolved.


I have word from a trainer friend that the dog has since been re-homed by a rescue and is dong "well". I guess the guardians on CM's show were the pre-forever home.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

nekomi said:


> Are you talking about the study that was done, where humans pointed to hidden food and the dogs followed the human's hand to find the food, but the wolves would not do the same thing? It seemed to suggest that wolves were not capable of responding to human cues in the same way as dogs. (link to study)
> 
> A newer study is showing that the results may not be as cut-and-dried as the previous study suggested. Here is a link to a similar experiment that was done, that came to the completely opposite conclusion, that "domestication is not a prerequisite for human-like social cognition in canids" (quote from study). It points out several major flaws with the previous study and proves that the method of testing in the previous experiment likely caused the results to be skewed.
> 
> ...


(i know this wasn't addressed to me..)

but what I mentioned wasn't this...

the big issue here IMO is something you Nekomi alluded to in your comparison of Yuki and Jasper. 

I think..at least in my experience...Wolves and Wolfdogs do recognize human signals...the issue is how they react to them..the way you described Yuki sounds kinda like several of the wolfdogs Ive met..one in particular that if you even inadvertently show threatening body language, she'd go after you. or if you ran or made high pitched noises...she'd give chase. She was also very particular about who she would let approach her...if you weren't a known entity, she wanted zilch to do with you except to make you go away.

She is the kind of Wolfdog Im scared this idea is going to bring forth. She is the kind of Wolfdog that makes this a bad bad bad idea IMO.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

I agree with you entirely Zim... the reactions are so much more extreme. That's why I believe they should only go to very well-prepared homes, who have some sort of hands-on experience working with or studying wolves and/or wolfdogs. 

In the wrong hands they are an utter and complete disaster. In acceptable hands, they are manageable. In capable, competent hands, they can be extremely well-adjusted canines. Unfortunately the latter is the rarest situation of the three.

Like I said, I'm really not happy with CM deciding to do shows on wolfdogs. I worry for the wolfdogs that will be "trained" on the show, I worry for the public view of wolfdogs becoming even more negative due to the behavioral issues on the show, I worry about idiots acquiring them without understanding what they are doing. In my mind, it is just another way for CM to appear even more "whisperer-like" by featuring him "taming" and subduing half-wild animals. IMO, it comes across somewhat egotistical, and I think that kind of exposure will definitely attract the wrong folks to wolfdogs.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

nekomi said:


> I agree with you entirely Zim... the reactions are so much more extreme. That's why I believe they should only go to very well-prepared homes, who have some sort of hands-on experience working with or studying wolves and/or wolfdogs.
> 
> In the wrong hands they are an utter and complete disaster. In acceptable hands, they are manageable. In capable, competent hands, they can be extremely well-adjusted canines. Unfortunately the latter is the rarest situation of the three.
> 
> Like I said, I'm really not happy with CM deciding to do shows on wolfdogs. I worry for the wolfdogs that will be "trained" on the show, I worry for the public view of wolfdogs becoming even more negative due to the behavioral issues on the show, I worry about idiots acquiring them without understanding what they are doing. In my mind, it is just another way for CM to appear even more "whisperer-like" by featuring him "taming" and subduing half-wild animals. IMO, it comes across somewhat egotistical, and I think that kind of exposure will definitely attract the wrong folks to wolfdogs.


they're not bad..they just need more...there was a vid I found one time on youtube about a couple that owned a pure wolf...and it wasn't much different than my experiences keeping hybrids...except I didn't have the space or time to do it right...I learned a LOT though..maybe someday if I have the right situation id take another one in...but not before. Ill leave that to you for now Nekomi. 

I wish I could find that vid again...


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> they're not bad..they just need more...


That's so true. I realized after I posted that I should have been clearer - I was mainly thinking of high-contents. Obviously low and mid content animals are often much easier to handle and more forgiving of mistakes. But you're right, they are not "bad", just sensitive and I guess I could say, "high maintenance".


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

I'm watching the episode now, halway through...

Frist - I feel like smacking the owners because to me it sounded like the husband said "ohhh, pretty wolf...I want one" without knowing what he was getting into.

Watching more...


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## Katzyn (Mar 22, 2007)

K9companions said:


> I'm watching the episode now, halway through...
> 
> Frist - I feel like smacking the owners because to me it sounded like the husband said "ohhh, pretty wolf...I want one" without knowing what he was getting into.
> 
> Watching more...


Doing the same.

Thinking the same. >_> Idiots.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

Second - The episode looked fine to me. But I don't think Cesar should have left Vada with them, I think she needed more rehabilitation and a sturdy leader like Cesar. With him, she might be able to take the muzzle off some time...

Third - I have mixed feelings about the upcoming episode. Though I AM worried about a rush of ill informed people looking to buy wolf hybrids, I do think/hope that Cesar will give plenty of warning during the episode that these dogs do not make suitable pets for most. However, those who do have wolf hybrids or shelters that are caring for them, I think the episode will be beneficial and will give them some idea where to start handling the situation.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful comments, links to info. & video links. This is most interesting. I'm still absorbing....


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the problem with that episoded is this..

all wolfdogs are not the same.

a wolfdog is a mixed breed with all that that entails....

meaning you can get animals that look like wolves and act like dogs...you can get animals that look like dogs and *act like wolves.* you can get any random assortment of the above..


here's the key point..

you CANNOT do that to a pure wolf (an animal that in many conservation places is typically walked on a LOGGING CHAIN...not for looks either..for safety) and expect to keep your skin intact. 

look at what Nekomi wrote..



> .. the reactions are so much more extreme.


people are going to see that..think that will fly with just any old wolfdog...until Joe Blow (or even Cesar himself) gets their hands on a high content whose temperment is that of a wolf. they're out there. and there are those that *won't* back down if they see you as a threat. 

and here's the funny(or not so funny) part...that's normal. its behavior that DOESN'T need modification because its a NORMAL aspect of wolf temperment...it doesn't mean that they can't be handled...just handled with care and respect to what they are....wild.

Nekomi...Vada...what would you guess as to her content?


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

K9companions said:


> Third - I have mixed feelings about the upcoming episode. Though I AM worried about a rush of ill informed people looking to buy wolf hybrids, I do think/hope that Cesar will give plenty of warning during the episode that these dogs do not make suitable pets for most.


Here's how I see this aspect of it. Not having an informative show about wolfdogs for fear that people might want to get one, is right up there with not having sex education because the kids might want to do it if they know about it.... or not teaching kids about birth control because it will encourage them to have sex. It's not a practical or effective way to address the problems with people and their hybrids. Nor is ignoring birth control education a practical and effective way to keep teenagers from getting pregnant.

I'm not crazy about people having these hybrids, but I know a couple of Internet friends who have them and do fantastic things with them. I'm not going to stop people from owning these animals, nor do I think it's my place to try to do so, so the more education out there about them, the better. 

So I totally support _anyone _having a show about them. Cesar has a lot of respect for the animal and recognizes that they're not like dogs. They're different and he stresses that. If anything, it's just as likely that the problems shown on his show will discourage people from getting one.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> Or if you ran or made high pitched noises...she'd give chase. She was also very particular about who she would let approach her...if you weren't a known entity, she wanted zilch to do with you.


Oh.. crap.. I think I have a Lhas-a-wolf


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Binkalette said:


> Oh.. crap.. I think I have a Lhas-a-wolf


http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfdogs/children_and_wolfdogs.html

this is a better explanation of what I was talking about..cept Shar did this with adults too.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

I've heard that this new wolf hybrid episode is actually a prelude to a spin-off series on National Geographic Channel staring Cesar's oldest son, who will have a show exclusively dedicated to working with wolves and wolf rehabilitation, called "The Wolf Walker". The son's pack will include both wolf hybrids and at least one pure wolf. Should be interesting !


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Andre Milan is 15 years old.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I think you're thinking of Shaun Ellis. National Geographic recently had a documentary on him called "A Man Among Wolves", and he has a book coming out in a couple of months. I work in a book store doing all of the book orders, and I just processed it. Looks like a good book. 
Here's a link with the info on Shaun Ellis. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=3008094&page=1


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

Speaking of which, where's all the uproar about Shaun Ellis? Why aren't people all freaked out because now, people will think it's okay to just go live with a pack of wild wolves and act like a wolf! How disgusting! This man should stop what he's doing! After all, it's just for ratings that he does this...


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

CM has an open invitation to visit Wolf Park, which he has yet to accept. The trainers there would love to show CM wolf behavior, and they've even joked about allowing CM to try his "dog whispering" with certain individuals among the pack...knowing he'd leave armless if he did. But CM is a smart guy and he must know that Wolf Park would not allow him near the animals for both the animal's safety and his...so I presume that's why he hasn't accepted. Likely not enough entertainment value in giving the educators at Wolf Park a segment in his show. Which is understandable since it would not be 'Cesar's Way'...besides the fact that their information is likely to be contradictory to the show.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

FourIsCompany said:


> Speaking of which, where's all the uproar about Shaun Ellis? Why aren't people all freaked out because now, people will think it's okay to just go live with a pack of wild wolves and act like a wolf! How disgusting! This man should stop what he's doing! After all, it's just for ratings that he does this...


1. He's a loon.
2. It's _not_ ok to just go live with a pack of wild wolves and act like a wolf.
3. There's a greater than average chance that he's going to either end up like the Grizzly Man, the wolves will become so accustomed to human presence that they become a threat and have to be destroyed, or both.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> Nekomi...Vada...what would you guess as to her content?


Looking at Vada I would say she is low to low-mid, Hyde probably a solid mid-content. That's based on their looks... based on temperament, I'd say the same... Hyde to me has much more wolfy body language. In the one scene where Vada is reacting to a dog going by, and Hyde gets a little riled up in the background... watch the difference in the way that Vada and Hyde are reacting. Vada is completely forward, barking and lunging. Hyde in contrast is more unsure of himself, but instead of barking, just showing a lot of teeth and jaw-snapping, and squeaking.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

nekomi said:


> Looking at Vada I would say she is low to low-mid, Hyde probably a solid mid-content. That's based on their looks... based on temperament, I'd say the same... Hyde to me has much more wolfy body language. In the one scene where Vada is reacting to a dog going by, and Hyde gets a little riled up in the background... watch the difference in the way that Vada and Hyde are reacting. Vada is completely forward, barking and lunging. Hyde in contrast is more unsure of himself, but instead of barking, just showing a lot of teeth and jaw-snapping, and squeaking.



I was putting her at very low to no wolf content. 

Hyde I pegged for low to mid. 

mostly based on behavior. The high contents I have run across didn't do much in the way of barking...they did a lot of "roo roo" kind of noises and yippy sort of noises, though that was only when they actually made noise...which wasn't really that often. that's just based off my experiences though..


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

You may very well be right, Zim - I agree that Vada really didn't show any obviously wolf-like behavior. She is likely low-content, I wouldn't say she is no-content though (basing that on looks - ears, face structure in general, tail set and carriage, paw size). 

It's so hard to peg these guys and it's always impossible to know for sure - ask 10 different wolfdog owners for their opinion on content, and you'll get 10 different answers.  I think your evaluation was pretty accurate.

You're so right on the high-contents being quiet and rarely barking... it's usually yips, squeaks, howls, and whines. They don't rely much on vocalizations to get their point across, though, like you said.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Just a question - I know nothing about wolf dogs - but it seems to me that it would be very difficult to study their characteristics effectively because:

i) you don't seem to reliably know the actual wolf content of a particular dog

ii) if the dogs are hybrids then couldn't any behavior they do be originating from either the 'wolf side' or the 'dog/breed side'? 

It seems to me there would be a danger of hypothesizing 'wolves act like XXX'. And then if the hybrid acts like XXX it is attributed to the wolf, and if it doesn't act like XXX then it is attributed to the dog/breed side. ie - it is very difficult to test your hypothesis .....

How do you try to overcome this ? Or am I confused?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

peppy264 said:


> Just a question - I know nothing about wolf dogs - but it seems to me that it would be very difficult to study their characteristics effectively because:
> 
> i) you don't seem to reliably know the actual wolf content of a particular dog
> 
> ...


confused.

there's two types of content...genotype and phenotypic expression(this being a combination of behavioral and physical traits)

genotype is impossible to determine without ancestors on site plus blood tests.

phenotypic expression is basically...how many wolf characteristics does the animal have?

You can easily distinguish a pure wolf from a pure dog..it takes experience but its very easy if you know what you are looking for. 

hybrids with unknown ancestry can really only be distinguished by phenotypic expression...and only by a practiced eye.

http://www.wolfpark.org/wolfdogs/Poster_section1.html

here's a link with a general explanation.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Thanks for the link; very interesting read.

I've read elsewhere that you can do a genetic test to determine the breed (ie mix) of your dog, at least as far as he is composed of the common breeds they have 'mapped'. Won't the same sort of test tell you % wolf ?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

not sure. depends on if both genotypes have been FULLY mapped.

and I wanted to address one other thing...




> ii) if the dogs are hybrids then couldn't any behavior they do be originating from either the 'wolf side' or the 'dog/breed side'?


no.

wolf behavior is VERY distinct and different from dog behavior. Wolves are wild...unless they have been *selectively* bred in captivity for about eighty years...they are still wild.

meaning faster responses, greater intelligence and problem solving skills, flight instinct towards humans and a whole lot more. they are NOT like a dog except superficially. 

Example..

human approaches dog..dog will likely wag tail and approach.

human approaches wolf...wolf will run away or if it feels cornered, attack.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Very interesting - I don't know anything about wolfdogs either.

A wolf will likely run when approached by a human? Huh - maybe I was looking at Wally's old behavior wrong. He's not fearful - he's just acting like a wolf 

Now he's acting a little more like a dog


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Very interesting - I don't know anything about wolfdogs either.
> 
> A wolf will likely run when approached by a human? Huh - maybe I was looking at Wally's old behavior wrong. He's not fearful - he's just acting like a wolf
> 
> Now he's acting a little more like a dog


he's fearful.

wolves are fearful of humans. Natural Selection has hardwired them to be afraid of us. as a whole we are a serious threat to them. they run..because they are scared.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

Any idea why is it that coyotes seem to be less people shy than wolves (even when living in the same general area) ? You'd think their experience with humans would be equally negative.


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## squirmyworm (Jan 7, 2008)

FourIsCompany said:


> Here's how I see this aspect of it. Not having an informative show about wolfdogs for fear that people might want to get one, is right up there with not having sex education because the kids might want to do it if they know about it.... or not teaching kids about birth control because it will encourage them to have sex. It's not a practical or effective way to address the problems with people and their hybrids. Nor is ignoring birth control education a practical and effective way to keep teenagers from getting pregnant.
> 
> I'm not crazy about people having these hybrids, but I know a couple of Internet friends who have them and do fantastic things with them. I'm not going to stop people from owning these animals, nor do I think it's my place to try to do so, so the more education out there about them, the better.
> 
> So I totally support _anyone _having a show about them. Cesar has a lot of respect for the animal and recognizes that they're not like dogs. They're different and he stresses that. If anything, it's just as likely that the problems shown on his show will discourage people from getting one.


I'm basically with you on this. CM _does_ do a fairly decent job of advising viewers to find their own professional behavioralists to work with their dogs, and not to try his techniques at home without professional guidance.

The thing is, we all know there are plenty of people who don't heed these warnings. I worry about similar thinking regarding wolf hybrids. If he's going to film a few episodes about wolf hybrids, I think the theme of these episodes should be on how wolf hybrids are NOT easy keepers. The level of commitment needed to care for these animals should be made apparent to even the densest of viewers. 

If these episodes turn out to only be CM showing off with wolfdogs, a significant opportunity to educate the public will be missed, and I will be very, very upset.


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

I'm sure that CM will get slagged for the show, regardless of how he presents it. He is already endlessly criticized for certain techniques he uses even though they say about 10 times per show 'Don't do this without the advice of a professional .....'. If he tells everyone 'Don't get a wolf hybrid' his critics will just say 'viewers will ignore the warning and get a wolf hybrid anyways'. So how can he win?

I think if he presents his material in what he views as an honest way then he is blameless.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

peppy264 said:


> Any idea why is it that coyotes seem to be less people shy than wolves (even when living in the same general area) ? You'd think their experience with humans would be equally negative.



I don't know for certain. but I could hazard a guess that the reason could be dietary.

Adaptation occurs as a result of environment and what it takes to survive in said environment.

Coyotes...from what I understand tend far more towards scavenging than wolves do. Scavenging requires a bit of fearlessness on the part of the scavenger.


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## squirmyworm (Jan 7, 2008)

peppy264 said:


> I think if he presents his material in what he views as an honest way then he is blameless.


Well, to be fair, I think that as when a person presents themselves as an expert on an issue, they have to be mindful of how the information they put forth will be interpreted. But that being said, CM does exactly what you said - he plasters his show with disclaimers. There's not much else he can do regarding the actions of his audience.

I'm sure he's aware of how misleading the image of him handling wolf hybrids without the appearance of much effort could be to some viewers, so I'm pretty sure he's going to take steps to inform his audience about the challenges of hybrid ownership. But who knows - guess I'll have to watch


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## peppy264 (Apr 23, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> I don't know for certain. but I could hazard a guess that the reason could be dietary.
> 
> Adaptation occurs as a result of environment and what it takes to survive in said environment.
> 
> Coyotes...from what I understand tend far more towards scavenging than wolves do. Scavenging requires a bit of fearlessness on the part of the scavenger.


Hadn't thought of that. Clever Zim .....


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Finally had time to watch some of the Vada video and after 11 minutes I've seen all I needed to see. Kicking an animal may be all you can do in some situations, e.g. if you or your dog is being attacked, but kicking an animal in a training situation when the animal was already given a hard correction with a leash? Um. No. I haven't seen all episodes of DW but I've never seen him do that before so I was very surprised. Wonder if they forgot to edit it out, if it's part of his repetoire, or if he just thought he had special license to do that since he was dealing with a hybrid? No matter- don't want a debate on this, please. And to be fair, I didn't watch the whole thing, so I may be taking this move out of context. It was enough for me, though.

Still, wolves and hybrids are a very interesting topic and I thank you all again for your thoughts. I think if I were a qualified trainer, working with hybrid rescues would be very challenging and therefore satisfying work. Hats off to you, Nekomi, and others who take this work on. These are beautiful and misunderstood animals who need knowledgeable people like you around.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

FourIsCompany said:


> The language barrier gets in the way sometimes. When he says "You have to choose the dogs at the dog park", it means you have to go there when there are balanced dogs there.


I still don't see how that's possible. Maybe some dog parks are more....organized? But at the dog parks I've been at, there's no way to find a time when 20 of the best, most well-balanced dogs are there. 



> Cesar was very gentle with the wolfdogs and even told the woman that she was being too harsh.


I did catch the bit where he told the ownershe was being too harsh, but then he kicked Vada after yanking her leash really hard  . Not real gentle.



> I thought it was a great episode and look forward to the new one. The food aggression/resource guarding and other issues disappeared and in the follow up session, the fear aggression with other dogs was also dealt with.


I did see that the resource guarding was much improved. That's actually not too hard to fix. I don't think the dog aggression was fixed. She would still munch any small dog that ran by and triggered her prey drive, even I can see that.


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