# Opinions on cropping?



## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Tail cropping, ear cropping, what are your thoughts?

I am personally against ear cropping, but am for tail-cropping as long as it is not for aesthetic reasons (I know some short-haired, long-tailed dog breeds need to have their tails cropped out of fear of having them hit their whip-I mean.. tail so hard that it damages their spine)


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

There's no real reason to crop anything. It's aesthetic and it should be banned. I know, I know "happy tail", but that's a real medical condition diagnosed by real vets. Anything else is just cutting stuff off because the owner wants the dog to look different.


----------



## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Amaryllis said:


> There's no real reason to crop anything. It's aesthetic and it should be banned. I know, I know "happy tail", but that's a real medical condition diagnosed by real vets. Anything else is just cutting stuff off because the owner wants the dog to look different.


I have a friend who chose to not get her dogs tail docked when it was a pup (German Short Haired Pointer) and when he was about 2 years old she ended up having to go the US to get a vet there to crop his tail because it was starting to kink because he was constantly injuring it.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My preference is for all my dogs to keep all their parts for various reasons. I don't want to deal with posting ears. Dewclaws can help with traction when running. Tails can be used for balance. I don't really see the point of the surgeries and have decided it would be very very difficult for me to go to a breeder that cropped or docked their dogs. Everything else would have to be perfect and even then it would give me pause.

I don't want to legislate it but am glad that it's becoming more normal to leave dogs intact. I see tailed cockers and schnauzers around a lot more lately.

That said Hank is docked. Wish he had his tail, though he would look kind of funny with one.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> My preference is for all my dogs to keep all their parts for various reasons. I don't want to deal with posting ears. Dewclaws can help with traction when running. Tails can be used for balance. I don't really see the point of the surgeries and have decided it would be very very difficult for me to go to a breeder that cropped or docked their dogs. Everything else would have to be perfect and even then it would give me pause.
> 
> I don't want to legislate it but am glad that it's becoming more normal to leave dogs intact. I see tailed cockers and schnauzers around a lot more lately.
> 
> That said Hank is docked. Wish he had his tail, though he would look kind of funny with one.


I am pretty much exactly this.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm more against ear cropping than tail docking but I am against both. I wouldn't buy from a breeder who crops/docks, which means that I'll probably never buy from a breeder because most breeds I like are traditionally docked. Unless things change drastically and docking stops being so common in the US. I prefer dewclaws left on but not sure if that would be a deal-breaker for me. I would have to think about that more if/when the subject actually comes up. It's all just. . .eww. 

(To clarify: the dogs are not eww, the practice is eww . I like all dogs no matter what has been done to them)


----------



## Apricot (Nov 25, 2012)

I don't like either practice, and wouldn't choose to go to a breeder that docked, cropped or removed dew-claws, but I don't think it's a huge animal welfare issue that needs to be legislated, and it doesn't make me like the dogs that have been docked or cropped any less.


----------



## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I had a dobe mix with a tail, yes it is like a whip but you know what? So is a pit bull tail. I had a pit mix foster who continually injured her tail. It was always a bloody mess. In fact she came to my house from the shelter with a bandaged tail and wound up eventually needing docked because she couldn't ever heal. Pit bulls are not usually docked, she had to be. Hobgoblin wasn't half as bad with his tail, most of the time he held it down along his legs in an arc and it wasn't noticeable, not half as bad as the table clearing tail of our old Dane girl or the lab fosters we've had (man can a lab tail clear a table). Some dogs have happy tail, but it isn't always in breeds that are typically altered at birth and isn't really an excuse for altering the dogs. That said I do think a nubby butt is cute. As Laurelin said I think I would have a hard time going to a breeder who did so. Everything would have to be really perfect. Right now I have some concerns on Lad's rear dewclaws. They are loose and I'm not sure if they are "too loose". I guess time will tell.


----------



## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

I don't like cropping or docking and I would not do it to my dogs. I find it more acceptable in working breeds that are doing a job like herding or livestock guardians. Otherwise it rubs me the wrong way.


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I prefer a more natural look, myself, but I can't say that I am against ear cropping or tail docking if it is done by a skilled, certified professional. Now Joe Shmoe using his kitchen scissors to crop ears is an entirely different story, in my books. That, I am against.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't think it should be legislated and I wouldn't call it cruelty but I also don't think it's painless nor do I think it has much of a purpose in this day and age beyond cosmetics. (If it ever actually did, since there are plenty of undocked/uncropped breeds doing the same jobs that docked/cropped dogs "need" to be docked/cropped for.)

I mean, it's not a dirty sin to like a certain look cosmetically. But cop to it. Personally at this stage all I see is fake, fake, fake when I look at them, especially ears. Not my cup of tea at all.


----------



## Foxes&Hounds (Jun 7, 2014)

Hate it.
Ears especially.
Purely aesthetic, completely unnecessary mutilation. I really hate the look of cropped ears. They just look... unnatural. 
I'm not the biggest fan of bull breeds, but look how much nicer/friendlier the natural ones look.
Very much glad it's not allowed over here.


----------



## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

My breeder does not crop her puppies ears or dock their tails.

However, when SHE buys a dog to breed, she DOES get their tails docked. I am baffled.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm against ear cropping. It's grotesque and painful.

I'm theoretically opposed to tail docking, as well, but the way it's most often done it's such a minor procedure that I can't get to worked up about it.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I don't think it should be legislated and I wouldn't call it cruelty but I also don't think it's painless nor do I think it has much of a purpose in this day and age beyond cosmetics. (If it ever actually did, since there are plenty of undocked/uncropped breeds doing the same jobs that docked/cropped dogs "need" to be docked/cropped for.)
> 
> I mean, it's not a dirty sin to like a certain look cosmetically. But cop to it. Personally at this stage all I see is fake, fake, fake when I look at them, especially ears. Not my cup of tea at all.


Agreed with all of this.

Also, though, there are breeds where it's almost impossible to get a tailed puppy because of the age at which they're docked (ie: you can't just say 'leave mine' because who knows which one is yours at that point) and I really think taking the OWNER to task about it is kind of silly, even if you're strongly opposed to the practice.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Laurelin said:


> My preference is for all my dogs to keep all their parts for various reasons. I don't want to deal with posting ears. Dewclaws can help with traction when running. Tails can be used for balance. I don't really see the point of the surgeries and have decided it would be very very difficult for me to go to a breeder that cropped or docked their dogs. Everything else would have to be perfect and even then it would give me pause.
> 
> I don't want to legislate it but am glad that it's becoming more normal to leave dogs intact. I see tailed cockers and schnauzers around a lot more lately.
> 
> That said Hank is docked. Wish he had his tail, though he would look kind of funny with one.


I wanted to add that I would absolutely not go to a breeder that cropped. I would maybe (big maybe) go to one that docked. There's two breeds I like that are traditionally altered. One is almost always docked. The other is traditionally cropped and docked but is not hard to find all natural. Most breeders leave ears on the non show pups at least.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Also, though, there are breeds where it's almost impossible to get a tailed puppy because of the age at which they're docked (ie: you can't just say 'leave mine' because who knows which one is yours at that point) and I really think taking the OWNER to task about it is kind of silly, even if you're strongly opposed to the practice.


Right, agreed completely. I don't see a way for a breeder to decide which puppies are going where at a few days old unless they're willing to take a pretty big chance on a puppy not fitting in to a prospective home.


----------



## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm not against it, but I don't think I would ever get a dog that was cropped or docked. I don't like the idea of causing an animal physical pain for purely aesthetic reasons. Cropped ears and docked tails are appealing to me on certain breeds (like the Doberman) but, if I were to ever get a breed that is usually cropped or docked I think I would keep the dog natural.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I support it. Don't think it should be legislated. Nobody's business but the breeder/owner.

There are some breeds that I feel like fine "natural" (Boxers and Rotties), and some that I think are just hideous left uncropped/docked (Dobermans and Schnauzers). For me, it is a matter of breed type, and breed type is important as to my perception of the dog.

But I have never been shy about my aesthetic preferences, nor do I feel bad about them. I will also not pretend cropping does not hurt (docking I would say is less so, due to incomplete nervous system). But, we've also made great advances in medicine these days so the dogs feel as little pain as possible.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I think in most cases cropping and docking are done for cosmetic reasons and not practical reasons (although I do know a pit who really should have been docked, as she's constantly whapping her tail against the wall, breaking it and spattering blood everywhere), but I don't have a problem with either as long as it's done cleanly and properly (and by a professional, for crops. I hate ragged, ugly crops).


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

With docking you generally don't get much a of a choice. I don't think docking looks fake or unnatural in any way either since it can occur naturally. I really don't like Aussies with those half bobs though. Breeders don't really have a choice either. They never really know which puppy is going to end up in what kind of home.. so dock them all. I will continue to buy from breeders who dock because Aussies are largely docked as a breed. 

I have a bit more uncomfortable-ness with cropping because of the age it is done. I'm still not going to condemn the otherwise responsible owner for doing it. We already force our dogs into so many unnatural things that I just can't really argue it too much. Would I like to see less of it? Yeah. I also think there are more important "abuse" issues that need addressed first.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't really care what other people want to do.

I own a docked breed (when it comes to tails the term is docked, not cropped) so I'm obviously not against it. I do prefer tails though and I hope that my next pup of the same breed will have one. I do think it's generally unnecessary, especially for pets.

As far as cropping, I don't prefer the look and would not spend the time to post ears and deal with after care, so I would never get a cropped dog. However, if other people want to do it, and it's done by an experienced vet with proper care, I don't think it's especially cruel. I don't like it or see the point, but I don't think there should be a law against it.

Basically I strongly prefer my dogs to be unaltered, but I don't think we should legislate whether people can or can't do it. I am also willing to buy a docked dog because the breed I love is traditionally docked, and I'm going to prioritize temperament over whether the breeder leaves tails or not.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Is there any scientific proof that neonate pups have incomplete nervous systems, or that, if they do, this means they feel less pain? I hear that a lot and I'm highly suspicious of the claim. 

I wish I thought there was a way to reduce the number of dogs who are cropped/docked without making it illegal but I don't :/.


----------



## Prozax (Aug 26, 2014)

I have nothing against docking, although there's very few breeds where I think it actually looks fine. About cropping I have mixed feelings. I personally will never have a puppy cropped. Not only because of the surgery itself, but also because of the long posting process that goes along with it. I taped my bullmastiff's ear and she wasn't totally comfortable with it. And it was just tape, no cropping no nothing. I can only imagine what a puppy feels like, post surgery and then going through the posting process..
That being said, I was totally leaning towards a doberman, but dropped the idea because I don't like an uncropped dobe, but I could never do that to my pup.

In my country, cropping/docking is illegal, but there's plenty of cropped/docked dogs.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Is there any scientific proof that neonate pups have incomplete nervous systems, or that, if they do, this means they feel less pain? I hear that a lot and I'm highly suspicious of the claim.


I can't find it now, but there was actually a study that concluded the opposite and furthermore that early painful experiences may sensitize an individual to have a lower pain threshold later in life. It's in some notes from a pain conference I attended which I can't seem to dig up at the moment, if I find it I'll post it. 



> I wish I thought there was a way to reduce the number of dogs who are cropped/docked without making it illegal but I don't :/.


I think it just has to be consumer/supply-demand driven. The more people who pass by breeders who crop/dock, hopefully the less it will be done ultimately. I just don't think it rises to the level of something that warrants legislation.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I see more and more tailed dogs around. I know people that have gone out of their way to get tailed dogs of docked breeds.

I actually startled a bit the last time I saw a cropped young dane at the park. I have never seen a cropped one outside of dog shows. Most the dobes, boxers, schnauzers, etc I see are natural eared. Again outside of dog shows and performance events. I wish there was more choice for breeders in certain breeds to leave dogs natural. In pyrsheps you can and can still show and do well but in many other breeds if you want to stand a chance you have to crop/dock.


----------



## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I used to be super against both cropping and docking but I've relaxed about it. It's an unnecessary cosmetic procedure but not the end of the world. I personally wouldn't have my dog's ears cropped but I could honestly care less if I get a docked tail puppy from a breeder.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I had one Rottie with a tail. He was a great dog, loved him to pieces and I didn't mind that he had a tail Now...that dog had so many problems with his tail that the vet insisted we had him docked. I thought the surgery would be horrible and I kept trying to convince the vet it was unnecessary but in the end, it had to be done. He didn't seem to even notice. I have had many docked Rotties and truth is, I prefer how they look docked. I also prefer not going through bloody injured happy tail. 

There are some breeds that I think need to be docked/cropped....Well, one. I think a Doberman needs to be docked and cropped. Rotties need to be docked. Everything else could go either way as far as I am concerned


I am far less concerned with people docking dogs then HOW they dock the dog and when. I personally believe it needs to be done by a very experienced person and at 3/4 days old. If you wait beyond that, you miss your opportunity. As far as cropping goes. I think it is much more painful and the pain is drawn out. It isn't just quick and done like docking.


----------



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

My personal experience with having banded puppy tails and had a vet cut off the dew claws. 
The pups never made a peep for the banding and never reacted to their banded tail being touched or handled for all the days it took to fall off (5-14 days), but when the dew claws were removed they screamed bloody murder. 

I will band the tails of more puppies without a second thought, but I am likely to err on the side of never doing dew claw removal again.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I definitely have my aesthetic preferences, but I am also lucky to have fallen in love with a breed that is 99.99999999% natural.

Sometimes we have to tape ears, and that sucks, but no surgery.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I quit caring ages ago. It's not harmful in the long run and it's not like anyone is forcing my hand to get my own dogs done. To each his own.

HOWEVER, removal of dewclaws does a lot more harm in my eyes--I read a study once where dogs in agility without front dewclaws had more injuries and the like. I mean if it's floppy and "dead" then yeah, but if it's functional and had bone in it then it should stay.

I really love crops on Dobies so if I had one I'd probably get it done.


----------



## yv0nne (Feb 21, 2015)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Personal preference. I will always docked my short coated weims, and take off dews. If I was to have a long coat (and I will in the future), it will of course have a tail, but dews will come off.
> 
> I prefer docked in most breeds, there are some I can live with natural but not all.
> 
> ...



Why would you leave a long haired Weimy tail but not a short haired?


----------



## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I'm against cropping and docking. I think it's wrong and I've heard many reports saying it hurts the dog. I understand why it's done, but I still don't think it's right.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There is no reason a fringe on a weim would be enough protection but a fringe on a spaniel is a hazard and the tail needs docked. 

This is where I get kind of irritably about docking/cropping. People who will just admit it's for appearance, or because of the preference in the show ring? Okay. But there are a lot of these rationalizations that hold absolutely NO water when subjected to even light scrutiny and just. Why? Not that I think people are deliberately doing anything but repeating/echoing what a bunch of other people say.

But it still makes me head tilt and go WHY?

Especially when most of the dogs being docked and cropped aren't being used for those purposes anymore, anyway. 

Just. It's not the end of the world. It's not a big deal. I just wish there was less "It's to protect their tail!" When in 95% of the cases no, it's because the owner finds it more attractive. That's not a hanging offense.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

missc89 said:


> Tail cropping, ear cropping, what are your thoughts?
> 
> I am personally against ear cropping, but am for tail-cropping as long as it is not for aesthetic reasons (I know some short-haired, long-tailed dog breeds need to have their tails cropped out of fear of having them hit their whip-I mean.. tail so hard that it damages their spine)


I have zero issue with cropping or docking...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I support it. Don't think it should be legislated. Nobody's business but the breeder/owner.
> 
> .


This is how I feel about the matter....

Interesting side note on pit bull..... I do not know where the cropping ears came from...

If you look at historical dogs in the breed that were known fighters... They had natural ears...

I grew up hunting hogs with Pit bulls. Actually catching them would be more correct. The hounds and curs hunted them and the pit bulls caught them. But I will tell what happens to a pit bull with cropped ears when it catches a hog..

Hog rolls over on the dog, trying to get the dog off. Dog refuses to let go... Hog grinds the dog's head in the the dirt and mud... Dog with cropped ears gets his ear canal PACKED with dirt..... 


I hunted with one GSP with a full tail.... I hunted around that dog for four years....With a tail.... I felt bad for that dog every time it hunted... Its tail was a bloody sore mess. The sticker burrs brush, etc cut the tail to shreds... EVERY time the dog got into the field. The owner finally had the tail docked on the adult dog. Significant surgery and lengthy recovery..... Dog wore a cone for weeks. 

The argument could be said.... Pointers(often called English Pointers) hunt with full tails.... Different breeds with different tails... Pointer tails are thick and heavily coated... the German sporting breeds...And the Vislas have THIN lighter coated tails. 

To me cruel is.... To put a mainland European breed in the field with a tail in the field...The tail is going to be damaged... Sore.. The dog is going to bleed... Scab, possibly get infected....


So the argument could be... So only dock the dogs that are going to be hunting or trial dogs... Leave the tails on the pets.....

At three days old... NO ONE knows which puppies are the hunters and which puppies are the pets... NO way to tell.... No way to even guess. So whack all the tails off... The difference of taking a tail at three days old.. Versus taking a tail on an older puppy or adult is as significant as the difference between trimming a finger nail and amputating an index finger..

On a three day old puppy... You pull the puppy off the nipple... Snip.... And put it back... It will go right back to nursing...The puppy is more likely to fuss over being pulled away from dinner than the snip... On an older puppy it is surgery with weeks of downtime... 

Move on to herding dogs.... BCs and ACDs are tailed dogs Aussies are either natural bobs or docked... But again... Look at the tails and how the dogs use them...

BC tails are HEAVILY protected with coat. Even on the smooth coats. They still have a good brush.. The dogs keep them low and tucked. They only bring them out when they need their rudder..... 

ACD tails are like a baseball bat.. AND they carry a GOOD protective coat. ( I had an ACD with a tail injury but... that is another matter) ACDs also carry their tail low and only use their rudder when needed....

Ever seen a tailed Aussie work stock? You might as well hang a sign on the tail that says "break me please" They tend to carry them high (not all dogs but many) And the tail tends to be all over the place... And it most often finds itself in the wrong place.... With Aussies it is like the dog's brain is not connected to the tail.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Amaryllis said:


> There's no real reason to crop anything. It's aesthetic and it should be banned. I know, I know "happy tail", but that's a real medical condition diagnosed by real vets. Anything else is just cutting stuff off because the owner wants the dog to look different.


This is pretty much what I think too.


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Inga said:


> I had one Rottie with a tail. He was a great dog, loved him to pieces and I didn't mind that he had a tail Now...that dog had so many problems with his tail that the vet insisted we had him docked. I thought the surgery would be horrible and I kept trying to convince the vet it was unnecessary but in the end, it had to be done. He didn't seem to even notice. I have had many docked Rotties and truth is, I prefer how they look docked. I also prefer not going through bloody injured happy tail.
> 
> There are some breeds that I think need to be docked/cropped....Well, one. *I think a Doberman needs to be docked and cropped. Rotties need to be docked. * Everything else could go either way as far as I am concerned
> 
> ...



You know rotties and dobes aren't docked in Europe or Australia anymore, right? Removing a tail because of injuries or other issues is one thing, but there's no breed that *needs* to be docked.


----------



## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

The concept of removing body parts (often painfully) for convenience or cometic reasons baffles me. 

Why would you remove body parts that often benefit the dog? It would take hundreds of dogs to be docked to prevent just one tail injury. Ears have absolutely no reason to be cropped. I can understand removing dewclaws, but lots of research has shown that they are beneficial, particularly to active dogs. 

I can't say I'd call docking or removing dew claws cruelty, but I think it's moronic. I feel more strongly about ears.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Wasn't there some kind of thing awhile back about people who worked dogs with a huge increase of tail injuries when docking was banned?


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

lil_fuzzy said:


> You know rotties and dobes aren't docked in Europe or Australia anymore, right? Removing a tail because of injuries or other issues is one thing, but there's no breed that *needs* to be docked.


But if a breed is prone to tail injury... And some certainly are.... Is it better to remove the tail in the first few days of the dog's life... When it is no big deal? Or wait.... Until when (and it is often when, not if) and remove the tail on an adult dog?


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Wasn't there some kind of thing awhile back about people who worked dogs with a huge increase of tail injuries when docking was banned?


Yes... I posted studies that showed that... One I remember was from the University of Edinburough....


----------



## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I'm not passionately for or against. I think it's unnecessary in most cases, done for aesthetics. I would like to see judge/breeder/owner preference move toward the natural look, but I don't wish to see cropping or docking banned.


----------



## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

There are some breed that I think look so better docked. Rottie are the first that come to mine. I prefer the natural ear look on all breeds.

I don't have much of an opinion on the issue. 

I grew up with cats that were declawed and kind of compare it to that.


----------



## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Not passionately against either, but dislike cropping much more. I'd prefer if neither was a standard practice but you won't see me protesting with picket signs anywhere.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

am not against it, I prefer that it's done correctly, and professionally, at the right time. When I was looking for another CO pup the pups in a nice breeding were not cropped and the breeder said she could cut the ears if I like and I told her (No) since the pups were 3 months old and they are done when they are 3 days old. That I would wait for another pup since she does some cropped and some left natural in her litters, not like she didn't have a kennel full of nice dogs to get a puppy from. I would hope those exhibitors that didn't want to crop are more allowed to make that choice and still be successful in AKC.


----------



## notgaga (Oct 25, 2014)

I don't really have strong opinions other than not wanting to inflict unecessary pain or procedures on an animal. Preventive care, yes, but Id have to see how common tail injury is.

Is happy tail the same as limber tail? Laika had that for a few days, which was depressing as heck since its otherwise always up.


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Without fully understanding it, I'm not a fan of ear-cropping. I've just seen way too many bad ear crops. If a breed were prone to health problems (like ear infections) due to floppy ears, I would understand. But I don't really like the look of a cropped ear, even if done well. 

And until scientific evidence comes out against tail-docking, I think it's a personal decision. 
Here's a cool video comparing tailed and docked dogs jumping, for your entertainment: 






I'm happy Watson doesn't have a tail. It would have been a lovely tail, but it would be filthy constantly, because he is so low to the ground and has long hair. 

I do have a hypothesis that dogs without tails have a little bit of trouble communicating with other dogs, but that is totally unsubstantiated.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

d_ray said:


> There are some breed that I think look so better docked. Rottie are the first that come to mine. I prefer the natural ear look on all breeds.
> 
> I don't have much of an opinion on the issue.
> 
> I grew up with cats that were declawed and kind of compare it to that.


It's not even close, declawing cats is so much more detrimental.

Patricia-- I don't think ears are done at 3 days...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

notgaga said:


> I don't really have strong opinions other than not wanting to inflict unecessary pain or procedures on an animal. Preventive care, yes, but Id have to see how common tail injury is.
> 
> Is happy tail the same as limber tail? Laika had that for a few days, which was depressing as heck since its otherwise always up.


Ever seen a b grade horror film? Blood splashing and spraying everywhere? 

That is what a tail injury on an adult dog can look like....

I had a dog (of a breed I would never crop and argued with the vet as to how far up we had to go to take care of the issue.. Vet was NOT my vet... Things like this always happen on a sunday morning and that vet wanted to bob him. I said you can only go back far enough to fix it.) injure his tail working cows... Have no idea how it happened two dogs were pushing a bunch of cattle into a pen then a chute... Just all of sudden he was spraying and slinging blood all over the place..

Dog never stopped working or made a sound. But he was STOIC.... I wrapped the tail with a towel and a shirt, then duct taped it.... Had a 25 mile drive to an ER vet.... By the time I got there, it looked like I had killed a person in the truck...Blood was everywhere..... I do believe a dog could bleed out over a tail injury, if the bleeding is not stopped... And I tried... Pressure, quick stop, flour, taping bandages... Everything short of putting a tournequite (sp?) on the tail. And I was afraid that would make things worse... So I hauled butt to a vet... 

When I got to the vet, it looked like I had killed someone in the truck. Blood was everywhere....

I had the truck professionally cleaned, detailed etc. Still had stains... Ended up having a crime scene clean up company work on the truck....

In the end, I traded the truck... And took a bath on that...

To give a run down....Of what a tail injury can cost on an adult dog.....

Surgery at an ER Vet on a Sunday Morning $2600 - Yea I got soaked but had no choice.
T shirt and levi jeans blood all over them tossed - 35 bucks
Good Stetson Hat $180 bucks - blood all over it... Tossed
Good pair of Justin boots... 160 bucks give or take... Blood all over them... I did keep them to hunt in. But had to buy a new pair could not wear those blood stained things around just anywhere. 
Cleaning, detailing, then cleaning by the crime scene clean up company - Around 900 bucks.
The loss on trading in a two year old truck with blood stains on the tan seats.... At least $2500 bucks. 

That comes to about $6375

And that is on a dog with a TOUGH tail... No way I would have a dog of a breed that is traditionally docked.... with a tail....


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

d_ray said:


> There are some breed that I think look so better docked. Rottie are the first that come to mine. I prefer the natural ear look on all breeds.
> 
> I don't have much of an opinion on the issue.
> 
> I grew up with cats that were declawed and kind of compare it to that.


God, even the thought of taking a cats claws makes me cringe. I don't want to get into a cat argument here, but look up some of the psychological ramifications declawing a cat can have.

And not to be contrary, But I actually prefer un-docked Rotties.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kayota said:


> It's not even close, declawing cats is so much more detrimental.
> 
> Patricia-- I don't think ears are done at 3 days...


No... Tails are typically done at 3 and no later than 5 days....

Ears are cropped later.....


And personally I want NOTHING to do with cropping ears... Who wants to worry with posting ears? 

But I am not against it at all.


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> No... Tails are typically done at 3 and no later than 5 days....
> 
> Ears are cropped later.....
> 
> ...


Exactly. I'm not against it, I just don't really like it. I think it looks dumb. Ear cropping that is.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

In the breeds with their ears completely cut off, they are done at 3 days. With no anesthetic, as usual. I think puppymills do that too because I've seen 5-week-old small-breed pups with fully healed ears.


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Kayota said:


> It's not even close, declawing cats is so much more detrimental.


Agreed. Where I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other on cropping a dog's ears or docking a dog's tail (I prefer my dogs natural, but to each their own), I am very much against declawing cats. The pain declawed cats endure for the rest of their lives is so heartwrenching and, IMO, unnecessary.


----------



## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I've had fosters with "happy tail" sure it bled and it was a pain to deal with (they chew at the bandages and keep re injuring the tail) but it didn't bleed anything like that. I've also had a dobe mix with a tail and his tail was a the thin Doberman tail, no issue. I've fostered a boxer with a tail, no issue.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

chimunga said:


> Exactly. I'm not against it, I just don't really like it. I think it looks dumb. Ear cropping that is.


Well I tend to favor breeds with naturally prick ears. 

But I see the reason behind some breeds... Dobermans for instance.... 
Their natural ears are long and houndy.... If one came after me. I would be trying to grab hold of those ears to control the head.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> In the breeds with their ears completely cut off, they are done at 3 days. With no anesthetic, as usual. I think puppymills do that too because I've seen 5-week-old small-breed pups with fully healed ears.


What breed has its ears cut completely off in the United states...



Remaru said:


> I've had fosters with "happy tail" sure it bled and it was a pain to deal with (they chew at the bandages and keep re injuring the tail) but it didn't bleed anything like that. I've also had a dobe mix with a tail and his tail was a the thin Doberman tail, no issue. I've fostered a boxer with a tail, no issue.


Hit the main artery......


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> What breed has its ears cut completely off in the United states....


 The ones PatriciafromCO has . Caucasian Ovcharkas.



So if tails have an artery how come puppies don't die from being docked?


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> The ones PatriciaCO has .
> COs I think.


Not in the US or Canada..... And in their country I understand why they do it...

It can and DOES save the dog's life...... 

I do not think the puppy millers do it real young either... You NEED to cartilage to develop before you crop....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Her dogs are cropped so idk. Ask her I guess. 

Like I said, I've met a litter of Min Pin pups who were 5 weeks old and had healed cropped ears. I didn't ask when it was done. Most small breeds I see have short crops so maybe they'll stand up easier.

Also a Miniature Schnauzer. Someone on my route just got one from the friendly local puppy farm. 7-8 weeks old, fully healed cropped ears. Not a good-looking job either. Her other Schnauzers have the same crop so maybe they're from the same place, but I didn't see them as pups.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Her dogs are cropped so idk. Ask her I guess.
> 
> Like I said, I've met a litter of Min Pin pups who were 5 weeks old and had healed cropped ears. I didn't ask when it was done. Most small breeds I see have short crops so maybe they'll stand up easier.
> 
> Also a Miniature Schnauzer. Someone on my route just got one from the friendly local puppy farm. 7-8 weeks old, fully healed cropped ears. Not a good-looking job either. Her other Schnauzers have the same crop so maybe they're from the same place, but I didn't see them as pups.


If a dog is cropped at three days... The is NO cartilage to post..... The ears will NEVER stand.....


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Kayota said:


> It's not even close, declawing cats is so much more detrimental.
> 
> Patricia-- I don't think ears are done at 3 days...


"" Ears: Cropped or not. Historically ears were cropped to avoid injury to them during encounters with predators. This gives the Caucasian his distinctive look, but uncropped ears are accepted in the show ring and are quite attractive (and very soft to pet). The ears are cut off when the puppy is 1 1/2 to 2 days old with very sharp, sterile scissors. The puppy will scream (twice), but the procedure is over quickly, and there is very little or no bleeding if done correctly."""

the video might be a big graphic for some to not need it.. but am glad I saw it if I am going to accept having it done..


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PatriciafromCO said:


> "" Ears: Cropped or not. Historically ears were cropped to avoid injury to them during encounters with predators. This gives the Caucasian his distinctive look, but uncropped ears are accepted in the show ring and are quite attractive (and very soft to pet). The ears are cut off when the puppy is 1 1/2 to 2 days old with very sharp, sterile scissors. The puppy will scream (twice), but the procedure is over quickly, and there is very little or no bleeding if done correctly."""
> 
> the video might be a big graphic for some to not need it.. but am glad I saw it if I am going to accept having it done..


Did you not import your dog?


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Did you not import your dog?


First CO Arka unfortunately was from a Dog Broker fronting themselves as a US breeder of a US breeding Kennel he is actually from a kennel in Siberia Russia.. Abhik I went directly to a breeder in Moscow Russia and had her imported to the US. Both of their ears were cropped after birth at the breeders

PS and if that is what your asking,,, the video is not of my CO pups having their ear crops..


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

Over time I've gone from staunchly pro-cropping/docking to neutral to neutral on docking and anti-cropping. The people who will straight up say it's for aesthetics and only aesthetics are one thing: at least they're honest, which I respect, even if I disagree on an ethical level. But every "reason" for cropping I've ever heard is either flimsy or totally unsubstantiated. If cropping was necessary for preventing ear infections, all floppy eared breeds would be cropped. If cropping was necessary for work, all breeds that do that type of work would be cropped (plus, let's be honest, how many dogs are ACTIVELY being worked in what they were bred for?) "Tradition" is not, IMO, a reason to cut pieces off of a dog. Call a spade a spade and say that you like how it looks and that's that. I don't have a lot of respect for people who try to dance around that fact.

It also bugs me when people claim cropping causes no pain. Seriously? _Seriously?_ There's a world of difference between "we're not torturing puppies" and "it's not a painful procedure." You are literally slicing through cartilage and removing body parts. Anyone who has ever had a piercing of any sort knows that there is pain involved, and one small hole is a drop in the bucket compared to to several inches of open flesh, especially if you're comparing earlobes (all flesh) to cartilage, whether it's a cartilage piercing or an ear crop.

I don't know that I support anti-cropping legislation. I don't like it, but like Eenypup said, you're not going to see me out there with picket signs. Like I said, the reasons people give for cropping bug me almost as much as the procedure itself. I don't personally like the look on the majority of dogs - the only dogs I think look really nice cropped are Beaucerons for whatever reason - but everyone finds different things attractive. It's the procedure itself and the attitudes that bother me.

edit: wanted to edit to add that I get why it's done on working LGDs and since there's a legit function there, it doesn't bother me at all.


----------



## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I think MountainDogs posted information about why cropping wasn't necessary on LGD breeds and was actually done because it was believed to keep them more alert. It was in one of the previous cropping discussions (or perhaps a thread on LGDs). 

Found it
http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/283809-why-caucasian.html


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

Remaru said:


> I think MountainDogs posted information about why cropping wasn't necessary on LGD breeds and was actually done because it was believed to keep them more alert. It was in one of the previous cropping discussions (or perhaps a thread on LGDs).
> 
> Found it
> http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/283809-why-caucasian.html


Interesting, thank you!


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If a dog is cropped at three days... The is NO cartilage to post..... The ears will NEVER stand.....


That's not true, lol. The cartilage is there, it doesn't magically appear later. It grows along with the puppy but they're born with it. Dogs without prick ears have cartilage in their ears, too. 


I just think the tail injury thing is kind of BS. As I said before, for every working breed that "needs" to be docked, you can find an undocked breed doing the exact same job. And I've seen tail injuries in a wide variety of different breeds, not just skinny tailed dogs. Labs and greyhounds are probably the most common up here - but you don't see racing greyhounds or labs cropped - because gosh, tails are an important, functional appendage. A fair number of GSDs, too. And most of them heal just fine. 

The study of working dogs sustaining tail injuries - did they keep track of other injuries, too? I suspect that those dogs have a lot of injuries of many kinds, not just tails. It's just a convenient excuse to continue tradition and personal preferences. SO much stuff people "know" to be true in dogs is just... something passed down and down and down that may or may not have any basis in reality. Like, since we're talking about ear cartilage, the "teething makes the ears drop" thing which has no basis in reality. Stuff like that makes me look pretty askance at a lot of traditional reasoning, a lot of it is just parroted and needs to be re-examined IMO.


ETA: And just to be clear, I don't think docking or cropping is the worst thing ever. I think people should be free to do it. But let's call it what it is - personal cosmetic preferences - and stop dressing it up as something else. Why make up excuses for it if there's nothing wrong with it?


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I hate cropping and docking, for it is mutilation done for aesthetic reasons and it simply can't be justified in my eyes. Inflicting pain on a dog, removing body parts, because you *like* the way it looks? That's a dark kind of selfishness on a level I can't even fathom. 

I am very happy it is illegal where I live. 

There have been more threads about this subject in the past and I believe my replies there were (a lot) more nuanced then how I've put it here right now... but I don't care. This is how I feel about it. And lots of arguments I have, have already been pointed out by others already. 

And it may sound odd to people who are so used to cropped Dobermans, but I've never known them any different and I love the way they look all natural. 









source

Pretty face with pretty ears  I just melt when I look at that.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I just think the tail injury thing is kind of BS. As I said before, for every working breed that "needs" to be docked, you can find an undocked breed doing the exact same job. And I've seen tail injuries in a wide variety of different breeds, not just skinny tailed dogs. Labs and greyhounds are probably the most common up here - but you don't see racing greyhounds or labs cropped - because gosh, tails are an important, functional appendage. A fair number of GSDs, too. And most of them heal just fine.
> 
> The study of working dogs sustaining tail injuries - did they keep track of other injuries, too? I suspect that those dogs have a lot of injuries of many kinds, not just tails. It's just a convenient excuse to continue tradition and personal preferences. SO much stuff people "know" to be true in dogs is just... something passed down and down and down that may or may not have any basis in reality. Like, since we're talking about ear cartilage, the "teething makes the ears drop" thing which has no basis in reality. Stuff like that makes me look pretty askance at a lot of traditional reasoning, a lot of it is just parroted and needs to be re-examined IMO.
> 
> ...


All of this.


----------



## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

Cropping and docking done in the proper setting should not be illegal. I've owned three dogs that were cropped/docked. One came that way from rescue, a MinPin and the other two came docked and I took them in to be cropped and I provided the aftercare and posting, Dobermans.

This is the look I prefer and don't mind the cost/care involved to get the look


----------



## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

I personally hate the look of cropped ears on dogs, does not look natural or good imo. I love floppy ears on Dobes or Danes/Boxers etc. Plus it has to be quite painful for the poor dog and then uncomfortable to have them taped up afterwards. Docking tails is an either or for me. Since they are done when the puppy is only a few days old I think it is less traumatic for the dog, however I am sure very painful for a bit. I do like the looks of a docked tail on the right breeds. When we got Belle and she was listed as a cocker mix but with a tail we were like oh..wonder if that tail will be goofy looking. We LOVE her tail, could not imagine her without it. She has her dew claws too and wow can she turn on a dime!


----------



## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

Avie said:


> I hate cropping and docking, for it is mutilation done for aesthetic reasons and it simply can't be justified in my eyes. Inflicting pain on a dog, removing body parts, because you *like* the way it looks? That's a dark kind of selfishness on a level I can't even fathom.
> 
> I am very happy it is illegal where I live.
> 
> ...


Yep that Dobe looks way better natural like that than it would if the ears were cropped. I don't get the reason behind ever cropping an ear anyway, what purpose does it serve to make them stand straight up and pointed.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

dogsule said:


> Yep that Dobe looks way better natural like that than it would if the ears were cropped. I don't get the reason behind ever cropping an ear anyway, what purpose does it serve to make them stand straight up and pointed.


For dobes originally it was to make them look scarier as they were protection dogs.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

There are US born CO's that are being cropped and yes they are all the way down to the head.


----------



## Foxes&Hounds (Jun 7, 2014)

WonderBreadDots said:


> Cropping and docking done in the proper setting should not be illegal. I've owned three dogs that were cropped/docked. One came that way from rescue, a MinPin and the other two came docked and I took them in to be cropped and I provided the aftercare and posting, Dobermans.
> 
> *This is the look I prefer and don't mind the cost/care involved to get the look*
> View attachment 197722


No offense intended to you personally, but I find that a disgusting way of thinking.
I've read of people saying if cropping/docking becomes illegal, they'll quit that breed. If you don't like the breed natural, you obviously don't really like the breed. 
It's like saying I like labradors, but only if someone cuts its lips off. I like german shepherds, but only if they have forked tongues.

Would pro cropping people find decorative piercings and tattoos on dogs acceptable too?


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

FH I respect how you feel for drawling your own lines... I'm with WonderBreadDots, I didn't want the responsibility of finding the right vet for cropping. I"ve seen a lot of awful chop jobs here in Colorado, don't feel just any vet can do ears.. There is a special type of niche that an individual has to know the individual breed and the individual dog they are cropping to be successful. I have never sought out to own a Doberman because of just that.. I like the crop look, if a breeder didn't have their own specialized vet I would be at a loss for having the confidence to find the right one and not have it done correctly.. My corso they get ears cropped later after they are sent home to their owners, again called around looking for a qualified vet for cropping and didn't feel I found one to ever commit to a puppy .. Got lucky that the breeder was dropping Adele from her breeding program at 6 months of age to have her up for sale. She had already been cropped.. yay for me to have exactly what I wanted in Adele and the look.. And you can't call it shallow... because even after Adele decided she didn't like my female GSD and litterly in one attempt almost ripped J's throat out and close killed her.. Adele is still with me am still devoted to her for what works for Adele... Not shallow to pick the exact dog you would love for a life time no matter what the Good, the bad, the really ugly life turns that can happen when you take a living creature into you heart for their life time..


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Avie said:


> And it may sound odd to people who are so used to cropped Dobermans, but I've never known them any different and I love the way they look all natural.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I LOVE uncropped Dobies. I think they are stunning dogs either way, but I melt too when I see them au naturale. If I were to ever have a Dobie, I would actively look for a breeder that left the ears as is (edit: or at least was okay with me doing so).


----------



## gwd (Sep 6, 2014)

prefer docked tails. ......i just do. it's the way i'm use to seeing the breed and it's what is pleasing to my eye. 

there are studies that show it does not cause the puppies pain, and there are an equal number of studies that show it does. ....my own observation is that if it is painful, it's short lived. if done very early, most puppies dont make any noise and only grumble at being separated from mom.......they'll go back to nursing or sleep right away. 

now, there are great arguments for not docking.........i appreciate that people have preferences. 

i'm ok with people that don't want to dock and in many cases, i respect their choice.......that said, i don't want someone else to make my choice for me. 

i seem to encounter some very rude people when i walk my dogs.......i've been casitgated for having pure bred dogs (how DARE i buy rather than rescue).......and on a few occasions some passerby felt the need to yell at me for having a dog with a docked tail. the last person that did that was a seemingly nice looking woman at shopping at petco with her two sons. she made some snide remark as i passed..........i guess i was also in kind of a snarky mood because normally i'd have just let her comments pass...........i stopped in my tracks and said, 'with your view on 'cruel and inhumane' practices, i hope to gawd your boys were not circumcised!'' her red face led me to believe she'd been caught in moral disengagement.


----------



## gwd (Sep 6, 2014)

It's also interesting that people that decide to verbally attack me for having a dog with a docked tail, also think I'm a horrible owner because my male is intact. They rail because of a docked tail and yet want him separated from his testicles. ...........now I just reply that his nutsack is 'natural' even if the tail is not.


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Amaryllis said:


> There's no real reason to crop anything. It's aesthetic and it should be banned. I know, I know "happy tail", but that's a real medical condition diagnosed by real vets. Anything else is just cutting stuff off because the owner wants the dog to look different.


I agree. I think people who have it done to their dogs that don't have a medical reason diagnosed by a vet are pretty shallow people who put their own image before their dog's welfare. (That is assuming you are not showing a dog who's breed standard requires it.).


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

spotted nikes said:


> I agree. I think people who have it done to their dogs that don't have a medical reason diagnosed by a vet are pretty shallow people who put their own image before their dog's welfare. (That is assuming you are not showing a dog who's breed standard requires it.).


Are you giving people an out if they show? I don't. If people don't challenge the status quo it will never change. I would consider cropping for show standards just as frivolous as cropping for personal standards. 

A friend and I were discussing her family member who recently got in trouble for physically abusing their kid. She said "but she really loves her kid, she's not an abuser!" But the vast majority of child abuse deaths (and although you'll never get 2 people to agree on what counts as abuse, I hope people can agree that something that resulted in death is clearly abuse) are caused by good loving parents who did not intend to kill their kid. It was not an accident, as they chose to hurt their child as "discipline" and you have to accept that choosing to hurt someone can easily go too far, but they did not intend to cause death or even serious harm. People who abuse their kids are generally good people. But they're still abusers who chose to hurt their own kids for their own reasons.

So I can accept that people who choose this might be good people. But I still consider the actual actions to be a bad thing that shouldn't happen.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Uh... child abuse causing death and ear cropping aren't even comparable. Tangent much?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Lol, well it works in my head . 

Worth pointing out for clarity, that some people feel very strongly about their right to bruise their children if they feel justified in doing so. I feel that it's a bad thing that shouldn't happen, even if they mean well. Fortunately the law agrees with me on that one, I think in all states now. I think the argument about cropping and docking is about the same---some people feel very strongly about their rights to do what they feel justified in doing, some people, like me, feel that it's a bad thing that shouldn't happen. The law in the US so far doesn't agree with me on that one. 

Good people can do bad things, that was my tangential point.


----------



## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

Foxes&Hounds said:


> No offense intended to you personally, but I find that a disgusting way of thinking.
> I've read of people saying if cropping/docking becomes illegal, they'll quit that breed. If you don't like the breed natural, you obviously don't really like the breed.
> *It's like saying I like labradors, but only if someone cuts its lips off. I like german shepherds, but only if they have forked tongues*.
> 
> Would pro cropping people find decorative piercings and tattoos on dogs acceptable too?


My dogs were cropped under anesthesia by a licensed veterinarian. Did the dogs feel pain? Maybe. Were the dogs distressed during aftercare when their ears were being posted? Not that I was aware of. The dogs sat and were calm while changing bandages.

I've never seen or heard of a Lab's lips being cut off or German Shepherds with forked tongues. Don't be so dramatic if you want to be taken seriously.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Uh... child abuse causing death and ear cropping aren't even comparable. Tangent much?


It was a metaphor.


----------



## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

pawsaddict said:


> Agreed. Where I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other on cropping a dog's ears or docking a dog's tail (I prefer my dogs natural, but to each their own), I am very much against declawing cats. The pain declawed cats endure for the rest of their lives is so heartwrenching and, IMO, unnecessary.


Declawing a cat is like cutting your fingers off at the first knuckle.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

gwd said:


> prefer docked tails. ......i just do. it's the way i'm use to seeing the breed and it's what is pleasing to my eye.
> 
> there are studies that show it does not cause the puppies pain, and there are an equal number of studies that show it does. ....my own observation is that if it is painful, it's short lived. if done very early, most puppies dont make any noise and only grumble at being separated from mom.......they'll go back to nursing or sleep right away.
> 
> ...



So true so very very true.

Do I prefer the look of a docked tail? YES I do. I have had docked dogs for over 36 years now. I am so used to it that I think dogs with tails look weird (specifically Rotties) I had exactly one dog with a tail and it was a nightmare so I suppose my thoughts on that were shaped by that horrible experience. Much like my feelings on breeding any dog at all that has not had every possible health clearance/certification after watching my dear friends GSD hobble around with bad hips his whole life. I have little to no tolerance for crappy breeders for that reason. Our personal life experiences shape our views on everything.

One thing I do not understand is how people can have such strong feelings against it when it doesn't affect them. We are always shouting about banning this and banning that.. I personally do not wish to lose any more of my rights because a government controls that.. There are so many huge issues in this world and I would love to see energy directed toward those. 

My docked dogs are laying here at my feet and let me tell you they are no worse off for not having tail. Another plus for not having a tail (in my case only) is that we work around wheelchairs a lot and old people who are not so careful with their movements. There have been many times I was thankful for not having a tail to worry about.

I am not so hot and heavy on cropping ears but again, I wouldn't fight to lose the rights to do so. I do love the look of a cropped Doberman but I do not care for other breeds cropped as much. I did own a Dobe with natural ears as well She did have a docked tail though.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> One thing I do not understand is how people can have such strong feelings against it when it doesn't affect them.


By this reasoning, there are very few things I should have strong feelings about. It doesn't affect me if somebody abuses their SO or child (or pet). It doesn't affect me if somebody else is not allowed to live his/her life because someone else disagrees with their lifestyle. It doesn't affect me if people somewhere else are being killed by cops for no good reason. Frankly, almost nothing affects ME personally. I still feel strongly about a lot of things. This is probably true of you too. Just gotta pick your causes.


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

missc89 said:


> Declawing a cat is like cutting your fingers off at the first knuckle.


Yes, but to me, it is so much more than that. I don't want to derail the thread, but here is a link for anyone interested:

http://www.littlebigcat.com/declawing/declawing-a-rational-look/


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> That's not true, lol. The cartilage is there, it doesn't magically appear later. It grows along with the puppy but they're born with it. Dogs without prick ears have cartilage in their ears, too.
> 
> 
> I just think the tail injury thing is kind of BS. As I said before, for every working breed that "needs" to be docked, you can find an undocked breed doing the exact same job. And I've seen tail injuries in a wide variety of different breeds, not just skinny tailed dogs. Labs and greyhounds are probably the most common up here - but you don't see racing greyhounds or labs cropped - because gosh, tails are an important, functional appendage. A fair number of GSDs, too. And most of them heal just fine.
> ...


The caritilage is incredibly soft on a young puppy. Did you not just watch the cartilage develop in Toasts ears? 

Care to explain exactly how you are going to post (causing the ears to set the way you want) the ears on a three day old Min Pin as Willowy suggested. 

As I said, there is nothing to post to... With a CO they just basically Lop it off....


As for the teeth thing..... Just what I have been seeing in natural prick dogs most my life.... It is pretty common for the ears to drop or more likely get sloppy again after they have come up. 
And you know what... You might be right.... It might have NOTHING to the teething. But it always seems to happen when at the time of teething and straighten itself out. 

As for Greyhounds and Labs injuring tails. Sure they do.... I never said only docked breeds hurt their tails. I had to have three or four inches of tail removed from Bandit the ACD. 

In a greyhounds working environment the tail is a non issue. and they NEED it. Open ground running. They would wreck without it. Around home and such seems to be the problem with greyhounds. Labs use their tails for swimming. Well steering. But they bang them on anything.

And yea.... I agree... In most working jobs you have tailed and docked dogs doing the same job.... But different breeds most often accomplish the same job in at least a somewhat different manner. And the dogs are different structurally, carry their tails differently.


----------



## ChelseaOliver (Nov 5, 2014)

pawsaddict said:


> Agreed. Where I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other on cropping a dog's ears or docking a dog's tail (I prefer my dogs natural, but to each their own), I am very much against declawing cats. The pain declawed cats endure for the rest of their lives is so heartwrenching and, IMO, unnecessary.


Exactly this. Declawing is an absolutely terrible, sad and unnecessary thing to do to a cat.


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Unless there's a good medical reason to do so, I would never crop anything on my dogs. I just don't see the point.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

pawsaddict said:


> Yes, but to me, it is so much more than that. I don't want to derail the thread, but here is a link for anyone interested:
> 
> http://www.littlebigcat.com/declawing/declawing-a-rational-look/


Declawing is unheard of here, I literally first read about it on this forum. But I never looked it up, assuming the nails were somehow pulled out. Or something. 

I am now severely disturbed. How can ANYONE in their right mind have their cat declawed. 

http://www.laziblues.com/images/Main_Graphic_Claws.jpg

I just want to scream when I look at that image.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Willowy said:


> By this reasoning, there are very few things I should have strong feelings about. It doesn't affect me if somebody abuses their SO or child (or pet). It doesn't affect me if somebody else is not allowed to live his/her life because someone else disagrees with their lifestyle. It doesn't affect me if people somewhere else are being killed by cops for no good reason. Frankly, almost nothing affects ME personally. I still feel strongly about a lot of things. This is probably true of you too. Just gotta pick your causes.


I guess you are right. I prefer to worry more about the starving or abused children living in daily hell then the couple minutes of fear/discomfort caused by tail docking but each to their own. I guess what I find odd is how many people have these strong feelings against it but often have little or no experience with it. Again, each to their own. I would quickly fight against anyone who has a dog cropped and doesn't take care of the crop until healed properly.


I also own a cat that was declawed on the front. She was older and got dumped in the shelter. I don't notice that she is in any pain with her paws or I would have just let them put her to sleep. She has now been with me several years and is still doing well....even without her front claws.


----------



## Silly Dog (Mar 3, 2015)

Cropped/docked isn't my favorite thing, although if I wanted to hunt a GSP I'd want one that was docked. Seeing ignored/starved/untrained/unhappy/unsocialized/in need of vet care/out of control/always on tie in yard/obese/mangy dogs all bother me a hell of a lot more than cropped or docked.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Honestly, every time someone is all "Cutting through their ears doesn't hurt _that_ bad, and it looks so nice" it makes me more anti-cropping, lol. I used to be more or less neutral on the topic but all the pro-cropping reasons are so venial or spurious, compared to removing the animal's body parts, that it pushes me more into the opposite camp whenever folks start defending it. I had surgery that involved cutting though cartilage and it throbbed for weeks so I don't really buy that it's so painless, either.

I have a dog who has a really unnatural and homely crop and it makes me sad that someone thought it'd be a good idea to snip his ears off.

"X is worse" is not a good counterargument, either. Things could always be worse. The existence of brain cancer doesn't make a broken leg a walk in the park.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Isn't that just all the strawmen now? "if you care about docking/cropping, you don't care about starving children and abused dogs!!!". Um no. It's possible to care about all those things. Of course it's not the highest on my bad list but it's still on there.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I feel like the pain and issues caused by declawing is overblown and spay/neuter surgery is brushed off as nothing (hey it DOES hurt and can cause issues like anything else..). I've seen plenty of declaws and it wasn't nearly as gruesome as that website made it out to be (still not great..). I've also never known any cats to have lasting pain from it but experiences are always different. I don't plan on owning a cat but if I did I would not have them declawed though. I also wouldn't crop.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

parus said:


> Honestly, every time someone is all "Cutting through their ears doesn't hurt _that_ bad, and it looks so nice" it makes me more anti-cropping, lol. I used to be more or less neutral on the topic but all the pro-cropping reasons are so venial or spurious, compared to removing the animal's body parts, that it pushes me more into the opposite camp whenever folks start defending it. I had surgery that involved cutting though cartilage and it throbbed for weeks so I don't really buy that it's so painless, either.


Me, too. I just hate all of the made-up justification. It's ok to like the way it looks. Why isn't just liking the way it looks a good enough reason to do it even for the people who do it? I mean, come on. If you have to justify it even to yourself then maybe it's time for some self-examination. 



Willowy said:


> Isn't that just all the strawmen now? "if you care about docking/cropping, you don't care about starving children and abused dogs!!!". Um no. It's possible to care about all those things. Of course it's not the highest on my bad list but it's still on there.


How very sad it must be to only have enough feelings to care about one thing in the world. 


Also, this is a thread that asked for opinions on cropping and docking, so I'm not sure why it is a surprise that people are talking about their opinions about... cropping and docking, lulz.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

sassafras said:


> Me, too. I just hate all of the made-up justification. It's ok to like the way it looks. Why isn't just liking the way it looks a good enough reason to do it even for the people who do it? I mean, come on. If you have to justify it even to yourself then maybe it's time for some self-examination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I am overly sensitive on all these topics myself. I have fought tooth and nail for the past 25+ years just to be able to own my favorite breed. Now I have to always justify why my dogs have docked tails (as if I chopped them off with an ax) and sometimes I just want to tell people to mind their own business. Yes, everyone has the right to their opinion but I should have avoided this thread as it is too personal and always feels like an attack on me and my dogs. Yes, I own a docked breed and I like it.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hank has a docked tail and I certainly don't think this thread is calling him ugly or anything. 

It does make me uncomfortable when I think about ethics and cropping/docking. To me liking a look is not justification enough to put a dog through surgery. It's not a reflection on the dogs but rather on the procedure.

I have been asked a few time about hanks tail. I do wish people would realize dogs can be cropped/docked by previous owners and not the current ones. I had a friend get a pit with horrible ears and get questioned all the time.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> I have been asked a few time about hanks tail. I do wish people would realize dogs can be cropped/docked by previous owners and not the current ones. I had a friend get a pit with horrible ears.


Yes! My Cas has a fairly bad crop and I hate the thought of people assuming I'm responsible for it.



















(I am, however, responsible for the travesty that is the spiky hair on top of his snout. It's finally growing out, though!)


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Me, too. I just hate all of the made-up justification. It's ok to like the way it looks. Why isn't just liking the way it looks a good enough reason to do it even for the people who do it? I mean, come on. If you have to justify it even to yourself then maybe it's time for some self-examination.


What if you think that it is fine for people to dock and crop because the dog because the owner likes the way it looks, or just because that is what always has been done with the breed....

You you just feel that it not your business what someone else does with the ears and tail on their dogs....

But you also see a practical side of it in some applications?


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> It was a metaphor.


not a good one. cropping isn't deadly or causing lifelong mental problems, sans anesthesia problems or infection.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I feel like the pain and issues caused by declawing is overblown and spay/neuter surgery is brushed off as nothing (hey it DOES hurt and can cause issues like anything else..). I've seen plenty of declaws and it wasn't nearly as gruesome as that website made it out to be (still not great..). I've also never known any cats to have lasting pain from it but experiences are always different. I don't plan on owning a cat but if I did I would not have them declawed though. I also wouldn't crop.


I have been saying that about speutering for years. Folks talk about the pain and cruelty of docking and cropping but then speak out in favor of speuter. They defend that as necessary.... And dismiss that as something that has to be done.

Yet both spaying and neutering is FAR more invasive than docking a young puppy or cropping a little older puppy.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have been saying that about speutering for years. Folks talk about the pain and cruelty of docking and cropping but then speak out in favor of speuter. They defend that as necessary.... And dismiss that as something that has to be done.
> 
> Yet both spaying and neutering is FAR more invasive than docking a young puppy or cropping a little older puppy.


My thoughts exactly when I was reading the thread. I've had people give me dirty looks for not doing pediatric neuter on Clyde and waiting 2-3 years to do it. I have also heard about people getting just as upset just because somebody had a pit with a show crop.

I'd rather get an ear crop for a puppy than neuter him if we're going to talk about what is really painful and unneeded...


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Birth control is necessary and the results of not having effective birth control are uglier than the surgeries. I'm sure perfect people find management to be a fine method of birth control but not everybody is so perfect. I would be all for a less invasive form of safe effective birth control, and if one were available I would be against spay/neuter as well. But nope, what happens to unwanted puppies is just so much worse than a spay that I can't even go there at this point.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh no not this argument again.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Birth control is necessary and the results of not having effective birth control are uglier than the surgeries. I'm sure perfect people find management to be a fine method of birth control but not everybody is so perfect. I would be all for a less invasive form of safe effective birth control, and if one were available I would be against spay/neuter as well. But nope, what happens to unwanted puppies is just so much worse than a spay that I can't even go there at this point.


So I should do pedatric neuter on MY dogs, then? Dogs who have never contributed to the gene pool? For me a neuter or a spay is just as unessesary as ear cropping because we manage our dogs like any responsible owner.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

BigLittle said:


> So I should do pedatric neuter on MY dogs, then? Dogs who have never contributed to the gene pool? For me a neuter or a spay is just as unessesary as ear cropping because we manage our dogs like any responsible owner.


Agreed! The only reason to spay or neuter is for the owners convenience as well. I am not against that either. Since Carsten just got fixed due to prostate enlargement I can truly say it was far, far worse then docking.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

BigLittle said:


> So I should do pedatric neuter on MY dogs, then? Dogs who have never contributed to the gene pool? For me a neuter or a spay is just as unessesary as ear cropping because we manage our dogs like any responsible owner.


I didn't say you should? And I'm not for pediatric spay/neuter in dogs unless that's the best choice available (like for shelter puppies). I do think people need to be very realistic about how well they manage their dogs. We've had several "have you ever lost your dog?" threads and most here have lost their dog at some point. It happens. A lot of people say they can manage an intact dog but oops! If it truly and honestly is unnecessary for a particular owner then there's no reason to do it.

But again: birth control = necessary. Whatever safe and effective form you use.

ETA: and of course I would be against inhumane forms of castration such as not using anesthetic. Which I just found out some farmers do to dogs too :/. I suppose a dog is no different from a pig but I'm against doing that to pigs too.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

No one has said anywhere on here that you should pediatric neuter your dog?


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I feel like the pain and issues caused by declawing is overblown and spay/neuter surgery is brushed off as nothing (hey it DOES hurt and can cause issues like anything else..). I've seen plenty of declaws and it wasn't nearly as gruesome as that website made it out to be (still not great..). I've also never known any cats to have lasting pain from it but experiences are always different. I don't plan on owning a cat but if I did I would not have them declawed though. I also wouldn't crop.


I never said that spaying or neutering doesn't cause pain or future issues. I know that it can. But for some people, like those who cannot manage intact dogs properly, I think speutering is important to do. I just can't think of a reason why it would be necessary to declaw a cat, especially when it is known to potentially cause some very serious side effects and there are a lot of other viable alternatives (scratch posts, nail caps, etc.). I am sure that there are cats out there that do just fine after being declawed, but there are a lot of cats out there that are damaged by it.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

When I got Kris, I never even thought about getting her cropped. Her tail was docked and they left her dewclaws. I do like the look of some cropped Dobermans and the opinion on most Dobe forums is that if they are not cropped, they are probably not from a good breeder as "good" breeders crop all their dogs. When I did read up on "posting ears" I am doubly glad that it was not done. I think she looks good with her ears.


----------



## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have been saying that about speutering for years. Folks talk about the pain and cruelty of docking and cropping but then speak out in favor of speuter. They defend that as necessary.... And dismiss that as something that has to be done.
> 
> Yet both spaying and neutering is FAR more invasive than docking a young puppy or cropping a little older puppy.


But since there are as many irresponsible owners as there are responsible, spaying/neutering has prevented millions of puppies/kittens being born that would later end up killed in shelters. You only have to look on any CL to see how many "oops" litters there are, and loose male dogs that got lost getting out of yards to wander. And how many dog bites from intact males.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Every surgery should be considered individually and risks and benefits should be weighed. Like spaying and neutering or not, the benefits and reasons behind the surgery are very different than cropping and docking.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Birth control is necessary and the results of not having effective birth control are uglier than the surgeries. I'm sure perfect people find management to be a fine method of birth control but not everybody is so perfect. I would be all for a less invasive form of effective birth control, and if one were available I would be against spay/neuter as well. But nope, what happens to unwanted puppies is just so much worse than a spay that I can't even go there at this point.


See there is that argument again....

There is a less invasive form of birth control... In fact it is not invasive at all... It is called manage the dog. 

in any case.... 

You talk about all the negative side effects of the pain from cropping, docking, declawing (by the way I am pretty much with you on declawing but not from the same perspective) You talk about psychological harm, I seem to remember something about a cat committing suicide over a declawing.... You equate it to child abuse, torture, etc. 

Yet you completely dismiss significantly more invasive procedures in the name of birth control. The individual dog having the procedure does not understand the social aspect of being de sexed. But that dog still endures the pain of the procedure. And IF there was psychological trauma from being docked or cropped... Their is most certainly going to be psychological trauma from being speutered. I personally do not think there is...

You are mixing your compassion for individual animals with justification of putting one (well actually most) animals through pain to cure a social issue. 

And I am NOT anti Speuter... I am ANTI Speuter of MY dogs.... I have had terrible luck with altered dogs and have had no issue keeping my dogs from having unwanted pregnancies.... I do NOT think I am better, special, etc. I just think I am into and have done it so long it feels normal. I feel strongly any dog owner can do it. IF they are willing to learn and pay close attention to their dogs. 

I had the worst and most trying year of my life and still managed two heat cycles at the absolute worst times. 

I had major throat surgery on March 4th. They cut my throat apart, took my tonsils, removed a significant amount of my soft palate. Moved my turbinates, fixed my septum, enlarged my nasal passages. 

A week later.... Keely is going into heat. I was still on two Oxy every four hours. My wife was back at work. One of my folks or my sister would drive by and check on me... I considered Sending Merlin to his breeder. But I wanted him here. I managed and rotated dogs while on heavy pain killers. 

Then on September 3rd my wife had quadruple bypass surgery. And for the first time ever Keely decided to have her heat cycle like clockwork. Two weeks into September she is in heat. That was the last thing I needed. I was trying to work, do all the cooking, cleaning, etc etc etc, take care of my wife, walk with her twice a day, etc etc etc. And I was rotating and managing a heat cycle. We got through it. I had people coming over at times to sit with my wife. And I had a strict rule, leave all the dogs exactly where I have them. 

It can be done... Under the worst circumstances.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> But since there are as many irresponsible owners as there are responsible, spaying/neutering has prevented millions of puppies/kittens being born that would later end up killed in shelters. You only have to look on any CL to see how many "oops" litters there are, and loose male dogs that got lost getting out of yards to wander. And how many dog bites from intact males.


'

I am NOT arguing against spaying and Neuter... I am not against it... 

But pain is pain to the dog.... And speuter is more invasive with more risk than docking or cropping.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm arguing the necessity.

Removing a leg is very painful and invasive and can have long-term effects, psychologically and physically. There are a lot of medically necessary surgeries that are absolutely awful. But nobody's doing leg amputations for kicks. The long-term benefits outweigh the pain and risks of the surgery, and it's better than the alternative (death or living with whatever painful problem necessitated the amputation). That's my criteria. Is the surgery better than the alternative? 

The alternative for cropping being, what, having natural ears? Gasp, the horror .


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> When I got Kris, I never even thought about getting her cropped. Her tail was docked and they left her dewclaws. I do like the look of some cropped Dobermans and the opinion on most Dobe forums is that if they are not cropped, they are probably not from a good breeder as "good" breeders crop all their dogs. When I did read up on "posting ears" I am doubly glad that it was not done. I think she looks good with her ears.


She sure does.  Chocolate Dobes are my favorite.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have been saying that about speutering for years. Folks talk about the pain and cruelty of docking and cropping but then speak out in favor of speuter. They defend that as necessary.... And dismiss that as something that has to be done.
> 
> Yet both spaying and neutering is FAR more invasive than docking a young puppy or cropping a little older puppy.


Oh, hey, look who's derailing yet another thread, lol.



Kyllobernese said:


> When I got Kris, I never even thought about getting her cropped. Her tail was docked and they left her dewclaws. I do like the look of some cropped Dobermans and the opinion on most Dobe forums is that if they are not cropped, they are probably not from a good breeder as "good" breeders crop all their dogs. When I did read up on "posting ears" I am doubly glad that it was not done. I think she looks good with her ears.


She is beautiful.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Louie is just as likely to have an oops litter as he is to break his tail badly enough to need an amputation.

For owners who know what they're doing, taking a dog's fully functioning organs away is not a necessity. Just like docking the dog's tail. Or cutting its ears.

If Louie had cancer in there, then yes, it is a necessity like a leg that needs amputation. But he does not have cancer there...


----------



## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> When I got Kris, I never even thought about getting her cropped. Her tail was docked and they left her dewclaws. I do like the look of some cropped Dobermans and the opinion on most Dobe forums is that if they are not cropped, they are probably not from a good breeder as "good" breeders crop all their dogs. When I did read up on "posting ears" I am doubly glad that it was not done. I think she looks good with her ears.


I love dobes with natural ears. For some reason, I always thought Kris was a boy. Not her looks, the name.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

why should we have to spay or neuter if pur dogs aren't going to be creating puppies??


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have dogs that have docked tails. Two dogs docked as pups, one adult dog docked due to a tail injury. Adult dog- very painful- kept on pain meds, local blocks wore an e-collar and now two years later dog acts like nothing ever happened. I will say that for the two days the dog was bandaged trying to determine the extent of damage to the tail, the dog was in extreme pain. Within two days post surgery the dog was already acting less painful. No one has ever said anything to me about owning a docked breed dog.

Cropped ears- yep own a breed that I always get cropped. I like the look. 7 years later the dog acts like nothing. He allows me to rub his ears and never showed pain after the ears have healed. I have always owned a Doberman and maybe only two of the dozen I have owned had natural ears. 


Here is my rant- do not do your own dog's ears. Do not have your friend, co-worker, CL user crop your dog's ears. Please let your vet do it under general anesthesia. Give the pain pills prescribed by your vet.( I do not want to hear that your dog did not seem in pain last time and no we will not discount the price if you chose not to give the pain meds.) Have your dog wear the e-collar (there is a reason we send one home with the pup) keep the puppy clean and check the ears for infection. If you can not take out the stitches yourself, please bring the dog back within 10 to 14 days post surgery. Do not wait for 3 months to pass and then bring your dog back. 

Cropping does not automatically mean your dog's ears will stand. If you are not willing to commit to the posting and aftercare do not get your dog's ears cropped.

As far as spaying/neutering goes, I wish I had been spayed years earlier. The two days of discomfort post surgery was nothing compared of the years of misery I was before hand. Funny how many of my women friends say the same thing. Best thing they ever did.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> There's no real reason to crop anything. It's aesthetic and it should be banned. I know, I know "happy tail", but that's a real medical condition diagnosed by real vets. Anything else is just cutting stuff off because the owner wants the dog to look different.





Willowy said:


> I'm more against ear cropping than tail docking but I am against both. I wouldn't buy from a breeder who crops/docks, which means that I'll probably never buy from a breeder because most breeds I like are traditionally docked. Unless things change drastically and docking stops being so common in the US. I prefer dewclaws left on but not sure if that would be a deal-breaker for me. I would have to think about that more if/when the subject actually comes up. It's all just. . .eww.
> 
> (To clarify: the dogs are not eww, the practice is eww . I like all dogs no matter what has been done to them)





Foxes&Hounds said:


> Hate it.
> Ears especially.
> Purely aesthetic, completely unnecessary mutilation. I really hate the look of cropped ears. They just look... unnatural.
> I'm not the biggest fan of bull breeds, but look how much nicer/friendlier the natural ones look.
> Very much glad it's not allowed over here.


Okay ... I will say what I said to facebook people when they see fit to insert their beliefs into other people's lives. I 100% support a person's wish and right to own a natural dog of a breed that is normally cropped/docked. BUT I also wish for MY right to own a cropped or docked dog of a breed that is normally cropped/docked.

It is okay to be against it and to not support it, it is NOT okay to want it banned or to stop or chastise anyone else for wishing to own a cropped/docked dog.



Little Wise Owl said:


> I used to be super against both cropping and docking but I've relaxed about it. It's an unnecessary cosmetic procedure but not the end of the world. I personally wouldn't have my dog's ears cropped but I could honestly care less if I get a docked tail puppy from a breeder.





Keechak said:


> My personal experience with having banded puppy tails and had a vet cut off the dew claws.
> The pups never made a peep for the banding and never reacted to their banded tail being touched or handled for all the days it took to fall off (5-14 days), but when the dew claws were removed they screamed bloody murder.
> 
> I will band the tails of more puppies without a second thought, but I am likely to err on the side of never doing dew claw removal again.


I do see more issues with Lincoln's dewclaws being removed than him missing his tail LOL. I dont know if this is just a puppy thing or not, but sometimes he will bite and lick/chew at his feet where his dew claws would have been. I dont know if that is related to any pain not having the dewclaws causes or what. I have another dog who had his dews removed who never does this ... so who knows.



Xeph said:


> I definitely have my aesthetic preferences, but I am also lucky to have fallen in love with a breed that is 99.99999999% natural.
> 
> Sometimes we have to tape ears, and that sucks, but no surgery.


See thats what most people say that cropping is cruel because the ears have to be taped and posted, but what they dont know is some natural breeds (aussies, collies, shelties, GSDs, malinios, etc ...) also sometimes must have their ears set and taped/glued. So on that point, their argument is moot.



Willowy said:


> In the breeds with their ears completely cut off, they are done at 3 days. With no anesthetic, as usual. I think puppymills do that too because I've seen 5-week-old small-breed pups with fully healed ears.





Willowy said:


> Lol, well it works in my head .
> 
> Worth pointing out for clarity, that some people feel very strongly about their right to bruise their children if they feel justified in doing so. I feel that it's a bad thing that shouldn't happen, even if they mean well. Fortunately the law agrees with me on that one, I think in all states now. I think the argument about cropping and docking is about the same---some people feel very strongly about their rights to do what they feel justified in doing, some people, like me, feel that it's a bad thing that shouldn't happen. The law in the US so far doesn't agree with me on that one.
> 
> Good people can do bad things, that was my tangential point.


Uhhhhhhhhh WHAT??? I just I ... cant ...


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Uhhhhhhhhh WHAT??? I just I ... cant .


I'm willing to clarify if you want. The arguments each side uses are extremely similar to the docking/cropping debate.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Are we really comparing spay/neuter surgery to cropping/docking?

People don't get their dog's bits taken off because they like the look of it. Good grief.

Luna was intact in her previous home before we got her. There she had 3-5 'oops' litters, one of which was only just being weaned when she was rescued. They went back to get her puppies and they were gone. I don't want to think about what happened to those puppies. Or to any of her prior puppies. Part of me is always keeping an eye out at the shelter in case one of her pups comes in.

Spaying and neutering doesn't only effect your individual dog. Give your head a shake and have a reasonable conversation.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

ownedbyacds said:


> okay ... I will say what i said to facebook people when they see fit to insert their beliefs into other people's lives. I 100% support a person's wish and right to own a natural dog of a breed that is normally cropped/docked. But i also wish for my right to own a cropped or docked dog of a breed that is normally cropped/docked.
> 
> It is okay to be against it and to not support it, it is not okay to want it banned or to stop or chastise anyone else for wishing to own a cropped/docked dog.


this this this


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Inga said:


> this this this


Yep ... and it is why I will never live in Europe, or anywhere else it is banned.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I'm arguing the necessity.
> 
> Removing a leg is very painful and invasive and can have long-term effects, psychologically and physically. There are a lot of medically necessary surgeries that are absolutely awful. But nobody's doing leg amputations for kicks. The long-term benefits outweigh the pain and risks of the surgery, and it's better than the alternative (death or living with whatever painful problem necessitated the amputation). That's my criteria. Is the surgery better than the alternative?
> 
> The alternative for cropping being, what, having natural ears? Gasp, the horror .


Geeze are we equating amputation with cropping and docking now??? Man.

Necessity is not the issue, the issue is the RIGHT to own the dog you want, ot not. If you dont like docking or cropping, then dont buy a docked or cropped dog or see if you can find a breeder who will work with you. But IMO it is NOT RIGHT to enforce your beliefs onto someone else by saying it is morally wrong for them to own a docked cropped dog.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

EVERY SINGLE LAW that currently exists tramples on someone's rights and is forcing beliefs on people. I guess it comes down to what the majority believe is the greater good.


Cropping and docking are amputations. Like, the very definition of the word.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Spay/Neuter is far more necessary as a whole than dock/crop/declaw. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. 

My point was dock/crop/declaw is hated due to the "massive" pain it inflicts and is overblown. Yet.. it is far underblown on spay/neuter like it doesn't hurt at all. People like to tell only one side of the story on things to convince people to be on their side. I didn't really mean to make spay/neuter a comparison in that way. I WILL say that I know plenty of people that will get a dog neutered PURELY because they hate the look of the balls.


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Geeze are we equating amputation with cropping and docking now??? Man.
> 
> Necessity is not the issue, the issue is the RIGHT to own the dog you want, ot not. If you dont like docking or cropping, then dont buy a docked or cropped dog or see if you can find a breeder who will work with you. But IMO it is NOT RIGHT to enforce your beliefs onto someone else by saying it is morally wrong for them to own a docked cropped dog.


You realize that docking is literally amputating the tail, right? It's done at a very early age but it is, by definition, amputation. From Merriam-Webster:

amputate _verb_ : to remove by or as if by cutting; especially : to cut (as a limb) from the body 

As for "rights" as far as owning animals, I think that when the welfare of the animal comes into question, people's "rights" as owners don't matter as much. I think that's such a shady argument for it; it basically sounds like someone (not just you, anyone who uses that argument) saying "it's my animal and I can do whatever the heck I want to it because I own it." You don't have the RIGHT to do a lot of things to animals, and for good reason. They are living, feeling creatures and it's our responsibility as their caretakers to do what's right by them. The problem with cropping/docking is that, as anyone can see by reading this thread, it's a gray area ethically. You've got people all the way to one side saying that is it most certainly NOT a right and is basically abuse, and then you've got people on the opposite end of the spectrum saying the opposite. So for the people on the former end of the argument, which I would argue is the majority of the first world outside of North America, arguing that it's your "right" is arguing that it's your "right" to abuse your dog. That's why I think that if you're arguing in favor of cropping/docking, you should probably be arguing WHY it's not cruel, instead of just saying "my rights!" and essentially telling those people that it's your right to inflict pain upon your animals.

/pet peeve


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I do not inflict the pain anyway ... the dogs have those procedures done before the dog even gets to me anyway, so it is not even me "inflicting" the pain. Besides, ear crops are pretty much healed by the time the puppies go to their new homes.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ireth0 said:


> Are we really comparing spay/neuter surgery to cropping/docking?
> 
> People don't get their dog's bits taken off because they like the look of it. Good grief.
> 
> ...


This is a reasonable conversation..... Spaying and Neutering are surgeries of convenience. 

Many of those that are arguing against cropping and docking are using very similar arguments as those that support docking and cropping use, to argue in favor of spay and neuter. 

If I say the thin tailed sporting breeds, specifically the German and Hungarian Dogs, that work in the field, should be docked to prevent tail injury.... And there are those that call BS. I have hunted with a bunch of GSPs. Only one I hunted with had his tail... I watched that dog work through several Years of pure hell until he finally had his tail docked as an adult. I know it is not bs.. 

"Oh but we have to spay and neuter to prevent unwanted litters" "Sadly the dog has to go through that to help prevent pet over population."

Actually.... No no we do not have to de sex dogs to prevent unwanted litters. What we have to be is responsible animal owners..... How we get to that level of responsibility is up to each of us. The easy choice to alter the dog. And that is the best choice in many situations. But it not the only way. An owner can manage it. For a single bitch you are only talking about 2 percent of a bitches life that requires CLOSE and CAREFUL supervision. 
And that is without painful surgery.... or risk of complication....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> Oh, hey, look who's derailing yet another thread, lol.


Yea the entire spay/neuter/declawing thing..... Was brought up by other members..... But I derailed the thread.....

Yea go with that.... .


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Yea the entire spay/neuter/declawing thing..... Was brought up by other members..... But I derailed the thread.....
> 
> Yea go with that.... .


Sorry, my bad.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

still remains the reality that cropped/docked, natural, altered, or left intact wont save or change the many countless dogs from being dumped and Euthanize by people...


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> Every surgery should be considered individually and risks and benefits should be weighed. Like spaying and neutering or not, the benefits and reasons behind the surgery are very different than cropping and docking.


Exactly. I've seen dew claws mentioned a few times. Watson had his dewclaws removed at birth. And I didn't have any problem with it. I had a dog as a child who had a dewclaw ripped off, and it was a terrible bloody mess. I don't ever want another of my dogs to have to go through it. So I didn't even think twice about it. 

Could having his dewclaws removed mean he may not do as well in agility? Yes, possibly. But for me, the benefits far outweigh the possible consequence. I care about my dog's health and wellness much more than I care about his future agility scores.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> See thats what most people say that cropping is cruel because the ears have to be taped and posted, but what they dont know is some natural breeds (aussies, collies, shelties, GSDs, malinios, etc ...) also sometimes must have their ears set and taped/glued. So on that point, their argument is moot.


This is really lacking in logic.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I do know that Lincoln (who is without dewclaws) cant out turn his big sis, Josefina (who has her dewclaws). Not saying the breeder was wrong in doing it and I still LOVE him to a thousand deaths and more, but that being said, I will try to find a breeder who is everything I want and leaves the dewclaws (I couldnt this time around  Lincoln's breeder fulfilled EVERY other of my requirements except leaving dewclaws, so I compromised).


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

To be fair, the argument against removing dewclaws is actually for health reasons- it is thought to lessen arthritis in the wrist.

I have had a few dogs tear nails. Sometimes dewclaws but sometimes just regular nails. Some dogs seem more prone to ripping nails than others. Beau has ripped off three of his nails.

In all actuality it probably doesn't make much difference one way or another if a dog has dews or not. I startle still when I go to clip Bernard's nails and realize he has no dewclaws. He's the only one of the dogs that doesn't have them.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

parus said:


> This is really lacking in logic.


Taping a dog with natural ears isnt comfortable for the dog either, if you use glue, the hair gets ripped off or is worn off, same with the tape sometimes. A cropped ear is healed by the time the puppy goes to its new home, all the posting and taping you see is to shape the developing cartilage through teething.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I do know that Lincoln (who is without dewclaws) cant out turn his big sis, Josefina (who has her dewclaws). Not saying the breeder was wrong in doing it and I still LOVE him to a thousand deaths and more, but that being said, I will try to find a breeder who is everything I want and leaves the dewclaws (I couldnt this time around  Lincoln's breeder fulfilled EVERY other of my requirements except leaving dewclaws, so I compromised).


They're not even the same breed, and he's a puppy. The comparison is pretty irrelevant to any argument for or against removing dewclaws. 

This thread is so full of handwaving.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here is Chris Zink's article on dewclaws:

http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation.pdf


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yep ... and it is why I will never live in Europe, or anywhere else it is banned.


Slight de-rail. Sorry. 

I lived in Germany for three years, and people there do not alter their dogs at all. Most people don't even get their dogs speutered. And while I'm all for not infringing upon personal freedoms, I also want to point out that people there have amazing relationships with their animals. They have a low shelter population. Low rate of unplanned doggy pregnancies. There are by-laws in place for how long you are allowed to leave your dog alone a day. There's a deep respect for animals there that I don't see here in the US.

The only shortsighted downside I don't like is that they have banned "dangerous" breeds.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Taping a dog with natural ears isnt comfortable for the dog either, if you use glue, the hair gets ripped off or is worn off, same with the tape sometimes. A cropped ear is healed by the time the puppy goes to its new home, all the posting and taping you see is to shape the developing cartilage through teething.


First of all, sassafras has already talked about the developing cartilage and teething things. Secondly, "Some people with natural ears restrict the ears, therefore natural ears are problematic just like cropping ears" has a major, major logic hole right down the middle of it, even beyond the question of degree. Can you spot it?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

parus said:


> They're not even the same breed, and he's a puppy. The comparison is pretty irrelevant to any argument for or against removing dewclaws.
> 
> This thread is so full of handwaving.


Okey dokey ... Bear, our JRT (dewclaws removed) and SMALLER than Josefina cannot out turn her. Josefina at 6 months old could out turn him, and this dog was (in his younger days, he is 15 now) FAST has had multiple firsts and a few reserve champions in agility.

And before you say "BUT HE IS OLD!" Izze, my late ACD, who had dew claws AND her tail could also out turn him at 7 months, and he wasnt old then.


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> To be fair, the argument against removing dewclaws is actually for health reasons- it is thought to lessen arthritis in the wrist.
> 
> I have had a few dogs tear nails. Sometimes dewclaws but sometimes just regular nails. Some dogs seem more prone to ripping nails than others. Beau has ripped off three of his nails.
> 
> In all actuality it probably doesn't make much difference one way or another if a dog has dews or not. I startle still when I go to clip Bernard's nails and realize he has no dewclaws. He's the only one of the dogs that doesn't have them.


Interesting. I didn't know that. I'll have to look into that. Is it because the dewclaw help support the wrist, thus lowering possible impact? Or something science-y like that?



OwnedbyACDs said:


> Okey dokey ... Bear, our JRT (dewclaws removed) and SMALLER than Josefina cannot out turn her. Josefina at 6 months old could out turn him, and this dog was (in his younger days, he is 15 now) FAST has had multiple firsts and a few reserve champions in agility.
> 
> And before you say "BUT HE IS OLD!" Izze, my late ACD, who had dew claws AND her tail could also out turn him at 7 months, and he wasnt old then.


Not to be a jerk, but this is what we call anecdotal evidence.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

chimunga said:


> Interesting. I didn't know that. I'll have to look into that. Is it because the dewclaw help support the wrist, thus lowering possible impact? Or something science-y like that?
> 
> 
> 
> Not to be a jerk, but this is what we call anecdotal evidence.


I didnt intend it to be evidence, just one person's opinion.

@parus cartilage can go wonky during teething, I have seen ears on pricked dogs stand, then NOT be standing literally from one day to the next. Even Lincoln's ears changed from day to day, and week to week before settling down to what they are today.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> @parus cartilage can go wonky during teething, I have seen ears on pricked dogs stand, then NOT be standing literally from one day to the next. Even Lincoln's ears changed from day to day, and week to week before settling down to what they are today.


I saw the sun sink into the river yesterday. *shrug*


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

chimunga said:


> Not to be a jerk, but this is what we call anecdotal evidence.


I'm not even sure the "evidence" part of "anecdotal evidence" belongs on there.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

chimunga said:


> Interesting. I didn't know that. I'll have to look into that. Is it because the dewclaw help support the wrist, thus lowering possible impact? Or something science-y like that?
> 
> 
> 
> Not to be a jerk, but this is what we call anecdotal evidence.


I linked Chris Zink's article up there. The thought is that the dewclaw stabilizes the wrist and reduces torque on the wrist. And that cutting the dewclaw leaves the tendons in the wrist unattached to anything and therefore they atrophy over time.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Here is Chris Zink's article on dewclaws:
> 
> http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/dewclawexplanation.pdf


I have read Dr. Zink's thoughts on Dew Claws before.


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> I linked Chris Zink's article up there. The thought is that the dewclaw stabilizes the wrist and reduces torque on the wrist. And that cutting the dewclaw leaves the tendons in the wrist unattached to anything and therefore they atrophy over time.


What about in instances where the dewclaw is unattached?


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> I linked Chris Zink's article up there. The thought is that the dewclaw stabilizes the wrist and reduces torque on the wrist. And that cutting the dewclaw leaves the tendons in the wrist unattached to anything and therefore they atrophy over time.


It makes sense, and it's interesting. Do you know if there's been any comparisons between the effects of cutting declaws that are well-anchored, versus the ones that just seem to be hanging there? 

Whoever took my Cas's dewclaws off did a really odd job of it. There are nubs left.


----------



## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

I don't mind either way. Only one of "my" breeds (Poodles) are generally altered (docked), though it's getting more common to leave the tails. I have no problems either way and would let tail or no tail color my choice. Poodles usually have a long dock anyway, so the difference between a long tail and a docked one is minimal.

The clinic I work at doesn't do ears, but I've seen puppies post ear cropping, and they really don't seem to notice/be bothered. I have far more issues with neutering and spaying 3 and 4 month old puppies than I do cropping their ears.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

parus said:


> I saw the sun sink into the river yesterday. *shrug*


Uh, what????


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here's a better version of the article.

With a Flick of the Wrist, Chris Zink
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf

I don't think there have been any real scientific studies but she talks about the frequency of arthritis she sees in her patients with dews and without.

I think most front dewclaws are fairly well attached? I have only ever seen the dangly ones on back legs. If I had a dog with rear dewclaws that weren't attached, I would remove them. But not well attached front dews.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Here's a better version of the article.
> 
> With a Flick of the Wrist, Chris Zink
> http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf
> ...


I havent seen dangly dews on the front legs, either, FWIW.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> I think most front dewclaws are fairly well attached? I have only ever seen the dangly ones on back legs. If I had a dog with rear dewclaws that weren't attached, I would remove them. But not well attached front dews.


I had a dog that had very dangly front ones, but I'm not sure whether they were naturally like that or had been injured at some point. 

I wonder if the extra dewclaws Great Pyrs have are technically a form of polydactly. Now I'm poking at poor Cas's back legs to see whether he has double dew nubs there.


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> Here's a better version of the article.
> 
> With a Flick of the Wrist, Chris Zink
> http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/dewclaws-injury.pdf
> ...


The dog I had as a child, the one with the ripped off dewclaw, had unattached front dewclaws. They just dangled. He was a weird BYB dog though. Beagle GSD mix.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Study done in Sweden on GSPs right after they banned Docking. 
TAIL INJURIES OF SHORTHAIRED GERMAN POINTER DOGS BORN IN SWEDEN 1989

The Breed Council - German Shorthaired Pointer
The Agricultural Advisor,
Graduate of Agricultural College
Gunilla Strejffert
Nybybagen 14
781 96 Borlange

23 February 1992
INTRODUCTION

The German Shorthaired Pointer is a pointing gundog of continental type with Germany as its country of origin. In the background of these dogs there is Spanish, German and English blood. The German Shorthaired Pointer in its present form received its written standard description at the end of the 19th century.

In body construction, the German Shorthaired Pointer is somewhat more substantial and heavier than English pointing gundogs such as Pointers and Setters. The German Pointer is very happy and very lively, both in body and in soul. It usually moves in a very fresh, yes even abrupt way, especially in hunting situations.

The GSP was mainly used as a pointing gundog. It was also used as a retriever both on land and sea, as a tracking/search dog, as a flushing dog etc. It has become popular as a sled dog. Many of those who have chosen to acquire a German Pointer, have done so because of the dogs versatility, especially as a hunting dog. Another very strong reason is the the German Pointer is very hardy and robust.

Up until 31 December 1988, the German Pointer could be have a docked tail, whereupon one half to two thirds of the tail was saved. From 1 January 1989 the docking of dogs tails in Sweden was banned. It became apparent already during 1989 that the longtailed German Pointers had acquired a good few injuries on their long tails. In some individuals, it was necessary to amputate the tail even before one year of age, as a result of extensive tail injuries which didn't heal easily. The incidence of tail injuries seemed to increase in 1990. The Swedish German Pointer Club therefore decided to investigate how common and how serious a problem were tail injuries in the longtailed German Pointers. An interview investigation was carried out during the late autumn of 1990. This tail investigation was followed up by a questionnaire investigation during the late autumn of 1991.
INVESTIGATION METHODS

During the late autumn of 1990 an interview investigation was carried out amongst the 53 litters of German Pointers which were registered during 1989. 50 of these litters were longtailed. The other three litters were born during 1988 and were docked. Information about the longtailed litters and their breeders were collected from the Swedish Kennel Clubs annual register of registered German Shorthaired Pointers for 1989. In the first part of the investigation, we asked the breeders;

How many dogs in the litter received tail injuries
The type and seriousness of the possible tail injury
Possible tail amputations
"Degree of strain in terrain" that the dogs had been put through

This investigation was followed up by a complimentary interview investigation in the litters with tail injuries. The severity of the tail injuries was set against the relevant German Pointers body constitution and their temperament.

During the autumn of 1991, a further investigation was carried out, a questionnaire investigation, regarding tail injuries of those German Pointers born during 1989. The breeders then received the new questionnaire as well as their old statements about tails made in 1990, to be able to follow up the changes. Replies were received from 26 breeders. To make it all more true, we picked out these 26 litters from the 1990 investigation and collated the material separately. We were then able to compare the changes within the one and same group during the years of 1990 and 1991.
ORIGIN OF TAIL INJURIES

The tail injuries occur mainly during hunting. The injuries are then maintained during further hunting and also in the home. During 1991 approximately 15 dogs had injured their tails at home. Some of the sledding dogs received tail injuries whilst being trained.
FREQUENCY OF TAIL INJURIES

During the autumn of 1990, when the dogs were between 12 and eighteen months old, we received replies to our interview investigation regarding 44 litters. The investigation included 299 individual dogs (142 dogs and 157 bitches). It then became apparent that tail injuries had occurred in 23 of these litters. 81 individual dogs had suffered from tail injuries. This compared to approximately 27% of the whole investigated group. Dogs were somewhat more affected than bitches.

In the autumn of 1991, the same dogs were now 24 to 30 months old. This time we received replies from 26 litters. To make it more true, we picked out these 26 litters from the 1990 investigation, and collated the material separately. We were then able to compare the changes within the same group between 1990 and 1991.

In 1990, the group of 26 litters consisted of 191 individuals. In 1991, 179 of these were still alive. Of the 26 litters, 16 had received tail injuries in 1990 and 23 litters in 1991. In 1990, we found 72 individuals with tail injuries, corresponding to 38% of the group. In 1991 the number of tail injured individuals had increased to 92, corresponding to 51% of the group. The number of tail injured dogs had increased by more than 30%.

It could now be established that the male dog had received somewhat more injuries. If one were to transfer the above increase of 30% of tail injuries into the larger investigation group, the 44 litters from the 1990 investigation, we would end up with an increase in frequency of tail injuries from 27% in 1990 to 35% in 1991. This large group can be seen to be representative of the population of German Shorthaired Pointers born during 1989. In other words, every third German Pointer with a long tail, has suffered from more or less serious tail injuries.
OCCURRING TYPES OF TAIL INJURY

The kind of tail injuries which occurred during 1990 and 1991 respectively were on the whole the same.

Bleeding and damaged tail tips, the last 10cms of the tail. Light, medium and severe injuries. On occasion it has been very difficult for the injuries to heal.
Infected and inflamed tails.
Lameness injuries and so called water tails.
Broken tails.

SEVERITY OF TAIL INJURY

The tail injuries were graded as light, medium or severe, for each individual dog in 1990 and 1991. It was established how the tail injuries had changed between the two years:

15 had improved
37 were unchanged
47 were worse

The degree of severity appears to be linked to:

The liveliness of the dog and the tail
How much and how intensive the dog is used/hunted
The type of terrain where the dog is used/hunted

When the bushiness is increased, especially in wood and mountainous terrain;

The number of tail injuries increase
The severity of the tail injuries increase

AMPUTATION (known cases)

In certain cases, the tail injuries of the German Shorthaired Pointer born in 1989 were so extensive and difficult to heal that the only solution was to amputate the tail.

In total, this far, 7 dogs of the investigated group have had their tails amputated. In 1989 three dog tails (2 dogs and 1 bitch) were amputated. The dogs were only 6, 6 and 11 months old. In the later investigation it became apparent that a further four dogs (3 dogs and 1 bitch) had had their tails amputated. The age of amputation was 21 months, 2, 3 and 3 years respectively.
CONCLUSION

The German Shorthaired Pointer is a pointing gundog of continental type. It is a heavy set dog with a lively temperament and very strong and fast movements in the terrain.

The German Shorthaired Pointer could be docked up until 31 December 1988. From the 1 January 1989, the docking of dogs tails was banned in Sweden.

It became apparent that the German Pointers with long tails born during 1989, received a fair amount of injuries on their long tails already in 1989. It can be noted that the dogs had not reached even one year of age. The tail injuries continued to occur during 1990 and 1991. The frequency and severity of the tail injuries increased.

The Swedish German Pointers Clubs breeding council carried out investigations (interviews and questionnaires) during the late autumn of 1990 and 1991 respectively, regarding the incidence of tail injuries on longtailed German Pointers born in 1989.

In the autumn of 1990 when the dogs were 1 - 1.5 years old, 27% of the dogs had suffered from tail injuries. The investigated group consisted of 44 litters, 299 individual dogs.

In the autumn of 1991 when the dogs were 2 - 2.5 years old, 35% of the dogs had suffered from tail injuries. In other words, every third German Pointer with a long tail had suffered from tail injuries.

Types of tail injuries: Wounded and bleeding tips (on occasion very difficult to heal), swollen, lame, and or broken tails etc.

The severity of the tail injuries: The tail injuries have in total increased in severity up until 1991. Up to now, 7 cases of tail amputated dogs in the "more adult" investigated age group, are known. The severity of the tail injuries seem to depend on the liveliness of the dogs and the tails, how much the dogs are worked and what type of terrain they are worked in.

The more lively the dog and the more abrupt the movement (breed characteristic), (male dogs somewhat more inclined to injury).
The more the dog is used (the German Pointer is a hunting dog).
The bushier and thicker the terrain that the dog works in )mainly woodland mountainous terrain).
Then the more and more serious the injuries of the dogs tail
Then the bigger the risk for amputation of the dogs tail

The situation whereby every third German Pointer dog with a long tail is suffering from injuries and an increase of the frequency and severity of the injuries is unacceptable.

The above investigation relates to German Shorthaired Pointers. A similar investigation has been conducted for German Wirehaired Pointers. It shows similar results. A return to docking of these two German Pointer breeds at the age of three days is necessary.

Borlange, 23 February 1992

(signed)

Gunilla Strejffert
http://www.cdb.org/countries/sweden.htm

I do not think it is the best study....But it is interesting.


----------



## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Agreed with all of this.
> 
> Also, though, there are breeds where it's almost impossible to get a tailed puppy because of the age at which they're docked (ie: you can't just say 'leave mine' because who knows which one is yours at that point) and I really think taking the OWNER to task about it is kind of silly, even if you're strongly opposed to the practice.


Get this all the time for our corgi. #1 question "Where's its tail?? They born like that or did you cut it off?" =\

We didn't have the option with our breeder, she docked them all very shortly after birth. I have seen tailed Pemmies near me but have no idea where they would get them. It was my understanding that reputable breeders stick by breeding standards. *shrug*


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

parus said:


> I saw the sun sink into the river yesterday. *shrug*


Lol. 

(too short)


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Here is the Scottish study on field dogs.
http://theses.gla.ac.uk/5629/

There is a big push in Scotland to restore docking...
Not by the show community... Not by the breeders... Not by the pet community...

But the gamekeepers... Those that work in the field with the dogs.... Day after Day..... Those are the ones that are pushing the return.


----------



## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

Anecdotal evidence here. Worth something? Maybe, maybe not.

But I have seen a LOT of dogs of the same breeds with and without dew claws, as well as tails. In my limited, non scientific experience, I have seen major athletic advantages to dogs with tails and dew claws intact. Keeper's best friend is an aussie with his tail and claws. And holy CRAP that does is fast and can make whiplash turns like I've never seen in a tailless dog. Since I deal with ranch dogs a lot, it's not uncommon to see aussies with everything intact. And I have noticed big mechanical differences. Mostly I notice the difference in the turns. Altered dogs tend to slow before their turns, as they have nothing to counterbalance with. Intact dogs get low to the ground and grip through the turn. I don't, however, see this difference in naturally tailless dogs. But then again, there's nothing to compare in those breeds.

But again, that's anecdotal.

And since someone mentioned not knowing dogs with poorly attached dew claws, my mom has one. Slider is a Boston, and he has terrible dew claws. He has ripped them twice, and I almost wish his were removed. If we had waited to have him neutered we very likely would have done them at the same time. But, alas, we didn't know better. 6 mos. came around and so did the scalpel. His actual claw hardly grows. It's really thick, but he only has about a millimeter of quick at the top of the claw. I really have to keep up on trimming that. Good thing I LOVE trimming nails.

My BC has very tight, useful dewclaws. And I actively see him use them when making quick turns. And I might be crazy, but I have noticed a difference in the feel of the muscles in his arm compared to ones with dew claws removed.

But this is entirely just my experience, I would never speak of any of this as fact.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

chimunga said:


> Slight de-rail. Sorry.
> 
> I lived in Germany for three years, and people there do not alter their dogs at all. Most people don't even get their dogs speutered. And while I'm all for not infringing upon personal freedoms, I also want to point out that people there have amazing relationships with their animals. They have a low shelter population. Low rate of unplanned doggy pregnancies. There are by-laws in place for how long you are allowed to leave your dog alone a day. There's a deep respect for animals there that I don't see here in the US.
> 
> The only shortsighted downside I don't like is that they have banned "dangerous" breeds.


Holland's even better. (no dangerous dog ban  )


----------



## Foxes&Hounds (Jun 7, 2014)

WonderBreadDots said:


> My dogs were cropped under anesthesia by a licensed veterinarian. Did the dogs feel pain? Maybe. Were the dogs distressed during aftercare when their ears were being posted? Not that I was aware of. The dogs sat and were calm while changing bandages.
> 
> I've never seen or heard of a Lab's lips being cut off or German Shepherds with forked tongues. Don't be so dramatic if you want to be taken seriously.


Never heard of it, but there is the physical possibility for it to be done. Why is that dramatic, but cutting ears off is fine and dandy?


----------



## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

Foxes&Hounds said:


> Never heard of it, but there is the physical possibility for it to be done. Why is that dramatic, but cutting ears off is fine and dandy?


 It's dramatic to me because you are talking about altering a dog's mouth, which is very important to their overall survival.

I'm talking about altering my dog's ears and tails, which is completely aesthetic and very shallow of me to like apparently, but will have no effect on how my dogs will eat or drink.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

My Aussie does very well in agility. She can keep up with many of the BCs. No dews, no tail. I do wish she had dews though because she does turn a bit wide at times. I've known Aussies to be very strong swimmers despite no tail. As far as communicating better with a tail.. I don't know. Dogs snap at my dog's face because she likes to greet faces and make eye contact.. I don't think the tail plays a part in that. What about breeds that are naturally bobbed? What about breeds that are smoosh faced/bug eyed, or very bulldog-like? How do those communicate correctly? We breed really unnatural dogs and complain about crop/dock being unnatural.  I can personally read my dog's body language just fine.. so I imagine another dog can ever better. I could be wrong though.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hank turns wide and I think it's more of a structural thing than lack of tails. He's a bit straight, not as flexible as some dogs. He seems to be more made for straight line sprints and vertical leaping (lol). I find a lot of aussies have similar issues (bit straight compared to BCs)

Interestingly though Boca, one of the top agility aussies, has a tail.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> What about breeds that are smoosh faced/bug eyed, or very bulldog-like? How do those communicate correctly?


Honestly, based on my experiences with Bug: 

They don't. At all. Not even close. She's forward and rude, too, but other dogs clearly do have a very, very hard time reading her. Nothing to do with cropping or docking IMO, not weighing in on that again beyond my "I don't love it, but I know it's almost impossible to find a non-docked dog of most commonly docked and I would never crop and wish people would stop pretending it wasn't just for aesthetics and didn't hurt at all." But no, dogs with exaggerated/odd faces *don't* communicate well. 


And her lack of tail or mobility in her tail may or may not emphasize that, dunno. Honestly not overly concerned about it/don't consider it a major problem regardless. 

Total aside, the tightest turning dogs I have are Kylie and Molly - Kylie more than Molly by quite a bit. Both have tails, but they're also both cowhocked, slightly high in the rear and are a long way from even a little bit straight.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Honestly, based on my experiences with Bug:
> 
> They don't. At all. Not even close. She's forward and rude, too, but other dogs clearly do have a very, very hard time reading her. Nothing to do with cropping or docking IMO, not weighing in on that again beyond my "I don't love it, but I know it's almost impossible to find a non-docked dog of most commonly docked and I would never crop and wish people would stop pretending it wasn't just for aesthetics and didn't hurt at all." But no, dogs with exaggerated/odd faces *don't* communicate well.


That's interesting! I mean I've seen Bostons and such play just fine with other dogs but always wondered if those big eyes, smooshed faces, thick weird bodies (such as a Bulldog) made it harder for another dog to read them.


----------



## Silly Dog (Mar 3, 2015)

Just curious, do those of you who are against neutering as a surgery of convenience also prefer riding stallions to geldings?


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> That's interesting! I mean I've seen Bostons and such play just fine with other dogs but always wondered if those big eyes, smooshed faces, thick weird bodies (such as a Bulldog) made it harder for another dog to read them.


A lot of dogs hate Bug's guts. She does fine with the ones she knows, and strange ones hating her guts is usually a result of her being rude as heck when playing (lots of dogs hate bostons and boxers for this :/) and very forward, and rough. Secondary issue is they 'snark' or growl to tell her off and she can't hear it. 

But not really what we're talking about - just me on an aside.

Dogs just. don't. get. her. Like, consistently, they can't tell when she's getting fed up. And to be honest, even as a human, *I* find her hard to read. I can not tell you how often my husband and I have stared blankly and gone 'is she having fun or fed up?' Her muzzle AND tail are immobile (like not docked - Jack wags his nub, you know?- hers is froze), her ears only really go either straight up and touch in the middle when she's panting or are up normal otherwise, and (added benefit) her voice is monotone, presumably because she's deaf, regardless of howling/barking/whatever. It's flat and sounds the same in play, when left alone, or when bugged (presumably, I mean again: we can't tell).

What's left TO read? I think hackles are about it, and by then it's kind of late in the game!

Things like play=bows and bouncing are easy to read, but the difference between neutral/ticked off/frantically happy in the midst of a game? Eh, no.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Silly Dog said:


> Just curious, do those of you who are against neutering as a surgery of convenience also prefer riding stallions to geldings?


these topics should be looked at as Educational for people to decide what they feel right about.. 

because I do it for my own individual reasons and not one dramatic catch all.. I'm all over the place for what is right for me. But it doesn't mean that I didn't look into what I practice before I make my choices. I don't see anything wrong with people leaving a dog natural, I prefer when appropriate for the individual breed to crop /doc because I prefer the look (no secret already said it past post) Have different levels of predator defenses (llamas first, then dogs) for the farm and never seen a predator come into the homestead area, they have always come out of the ravines on each side of my fenced areas walked right past us and attacked and killed small livestock at the surround farms. I would prefer the cropped CO ears no matter what. I am not against people altering their dogs, I prefer my dogs left intact males and females. I'm set up to manage them for their life time to prevent breeding. Barn cats no way no control, all of them altered life expediency is not high for barn cats and that's another OMG debate . My Clydesdale's Gelded. Breeding is a management issue. But I still make my own choices and not go hard core on an issue that wouldn't be right for someone else. You have to live with the consequences and there is always a pro and con to everything. 
See it all the time about dogs being left out in the weather even though they have a dog door to come in the house or the barn they out there buried in the snow because that is what they want are bred for...that they actually have a job. Lots of animals have purpose.. and many of them not designed to be inside house pets but it works for individuals because they want and like the breed to do it.

Educational sharing great.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I do not think it is the best study....But it is interesting.


Next, they should track how many paw injuries the dogs sustained and then use it to justify prophylactically lopping off feet.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I call bullcrap on not really liking a breed if you don't like them uncropped/undocked. One of the the reasons you get a breed is because of the way it looks.

And I shouldn't look at a Dobe and feel like my heart is melting. They're meant to look intimidating, not sweet. If a sweet soft expression is what you like, go for a hound.

Of course, a natural Dobe looks like a hound...so there ya go.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

As I said, I'm all right with cropping as long as it's done under anesthesia by a professional, and I'm okay with docking as long as it's done when the pup is very young and is as quick and painless as possible. I agree that it's almost always for cosmetic reasons and that people should just admit that. I think the people who are opposed to it make some good points... but I find it hard to agree with them when they're comparing cropping (a one-time procedure) to prolonged child abuse or to chopping off a limb. People get hyperbolic on both sides and it's not helping anyone's case.


----------



## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

Regarding smooshy faced breeds:

Slider (Boston Terrier) has the same exact problems as Bug. Dogs just absolutely don't know how to handle him. Granted he can be a bit forward and rude, but most dogs tend to be very guarded around him. They treat him as though he's displaying aggressive behavior. It doesn't help that he has the raspiest, most aggressive sounding bark ever. 

I don't think a lack of tail necessarily is a big hinderance. But I think it changes how a dog will use their body. 

Regarding stallions and geldings:

I ride a gelding. I've also ridden studs. I am definitely not opposed to gelding horses because I think there are different reasons to do so. Stallions are dangerous. Even the calmest, most gentle stud can and will lose their minds around a mare in heat. I watched a wonderfully behaved, pasture bred only stud come through a stall door at a show to get to a mare in heat. The damage to himself was as bad as can be expected. Surgery and 18 months of stall rest. I don't have any stories of intact male dogs doing anything like that. 

I don't think it's really a fair comparison between horses and dogs. The reasons for castrating are usually very different. With horses, it is 99% behavioral. A 2 year old stallion is about the worst thing on the planet. The reasons are less clear with dogs. Neutering does very little to change behavior. If you neuter early, maybe the dog won't mark. Granted, my mom's year old intact BC still won't lift his leg. The reasons for neutering tend to vary. Aesthetics, population control, behavioral changes that likely won't happen, because it's the "right thing to do", pressure from the vet/society, etc. I'm not against neutering, though I plan to leave my dog intact. I don't think everyone is the ideal home for an intact dog. But I think there has to be a compelling reason to do so. And "Because he's 6 months and my vet told me to" isn't quite good enough for me.

I think there are less health implications for gelding a horse compared to a dog. Dogs are cancer machines, horses are not. Not to say that it doesn't happen, but not many people worry about their horses dying of cancer. The studies showing speutering increases the chances of some cancers in dogs haven't had the same results in horses. I think there are benefits to leaving horses intact for long enough to complete much of their growth. But the ol' snippy snip affects the brain much more than the body in horses.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I call bullcrap on not really liking a breed if you don't like them uncropped/undocked. One of the the reasons you get a breed is because of the way it looks.
> 
> And I shouldn't look at a Dobe and feel like my heart is melting. They're meant to look intimidating, not sweet. If a sweet soft expression is what you like, go for a hound.
> 
> Of course, a natural Dobe looks like a hound...so there ya go.


That argument again. 

Okay, my opinion. YOU think they are 'meant' to look intimidating, along with many other people. I, among many other people, am of the opinion they were meant to look intimidating a long long time ago when they accompanied tax collectors. And not only look, they acted intimidating too. Had a reputation of being dangerous, nasty dogs, and their cropped appearance contributed to that image. 

I believe today's Dobermanns have a much safer temperament than back in the day, with quite another purpose in life as pets and sports dogs. I think that leaving the dog natural is doing the breed a favor. They're not the nasty dangerous sharp dogs the cropped look makes them appear. Why shouldn't I or others look at a Dobe and feel like melting? They're gorgeous dogs worth melting for, not monsters I should fear or be intimidated by. Heck no. 

A natural look does right to any breed imo. 

And a hound and a Dobe look nothing alike... but we've been there before in other threads.


----------



## Shep (May 16, 2013)

What really baffles me is why people insist on cropping small/toy breeds. Maybe you think Dobes have to have pointy ears to look "intimidating" (although Rotties seem to do just fine in that department with natural ears), but why on earth does a Min Pin need cropping? Or a Mini Schnauzer or Brussels Griffon? As far as I know, they were never meant to be ferocious guard dogs.

As far as the stallion/gelding argument, I'm no expert on horses, but I would imagine there's quite a difference between controlling a testosterone-filled horse that weighs 1200 lbs. and a testosterone-filled dog that weighs 5 to 150 lbs.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Shep said:


> What really baffles me is why people insist on cropping small/toy breeds. Maybe you think Dobes have to have pointy ears to look "intimidating" (although Rotties seem to do just fine in that department with natural ears), but why on earth does a Min Pin need cropping? Or a Mini Schnauzer or Brussels Griffon? As far as I know, they were never meant to be ferocious guard dogs.


That and I don't think most people CARE. I just really doubt old Mrs Johnson with the Schnauzers cares if her dogs' ears are cut, or their tails. She just gets them that way because that's how the breeder sells them. If the breeder just stopped docking and cropping some people might say "well that's different" but they'd still buy puppies and not bother having them cropped later, they only think it's different because of cultural conditioning that the breed is "supposed to" look like that. And for fun sometime, try pointing out to a Yorkie or Toy Poodle owner that their dog's tail is docked. . .most don't seem to know this and I've had some funny exchanges doing that .


LOL, sometimes I want to be contrary and smart alec-y and get a beautiful, conformationally correct Dobe (or other breed that doesn't win if uncut) and enter him/her to every show possible. Just to make people uncomfortable. Make the judges place a less conformationally correct cut dog over him/her, show how dumb judging conformation shows by cosmetic surgery is. I think that'll be my lottery dream . I am usually pretty good at being committed to smart-alec schemes, don't know if I could put up with dog showing that long though.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> LOL, sometimes I want to be contrary and smart alec-y and get a beautiful, conformationally correct Dobe (or other breed that doesn't win if uncut) and enter him/her to every show possible. Just to make people uncomfortable. Make the judges place a less conformationally correct cut dog over him/her, show how dumb judging conformation shows by cosmetic surgery is. I think that'll be my lottery dream . I am usually pretty good at being committed to smart-alec schemes, don't know if I could put up with dog showing that long though.


The thing is.... That does not seem to be what the judges are doing. There are not many nice ones out there showing with tails and natural ears in breeds that are typically cropped and docked. 

There were a couple of tailed Rotties out there doing quite welll. Same for boxers and and I have seen some un cropped Danes at shows. 

There was also a corded standard poodle doing well. IF you do not clip a poodle its coat will cord like Puli.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Natural danes win here pretty frequently. Gorgeous dogs.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Next, they should track how many paw injuries the dogs sustained and then use it to justify prophylactically lopping off feet.


Hard to get them in the field with no feet....

I do see it as somewhat telling that in Scotland the big push to get the the ban repealed is by the game keepers and not the show, breeder, or pet people. They guys that are working with the dogs in the field day in and day out are the ones that find docking important.....

I doubt they are spending the money and time just because they like the look... .


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I also don't think that the people who are saying "it's the owner's right to do whatever they want!" would actually support someone who wanted to, say, crop a Lab because they prefer how it looks. Because that's not what some dude 150 years ago said should be done.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Natural danes win here pretty frequently. Gorgeous dogs.


Here as well. 

Are folks that choose not to dock or crop going to meet hard line judges that hold that against them. Sure.

But that is conformation. There are a lot of good judges that like an honest dog and do not sweat things like that.

When Merlin was a class dog, there was a male out on the circuit. Beautiful dog, well build and great moving.... 

He had one ear. When the dog was about six months old, got into an unfortunate incident with his father. His ear was mangled. Had to be removed right at the head. The owner had the courage to go ahead and show him. He finished with ease. Merlin's Breeder sold a bitch to a woman and it lost half its tail in an accident. It showed and became a champion. 

Merlin injured his ear while he was still a special. It was noticibely crooked after that but from the crease you could easily tell it was from an injury and he was not born that way. Never slowed him down.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I also don't think that the people who are saying "it's the owner's right to do whatever they want!" would actually support someone who wanted to, say, crop a Lab because they prefer how it looks. Because that's not what some dude 150 years ago said should be done.


If they did the Lab at three days, I would not care... Why should I.... I would think it is stupid... Anyone that has seen a Lab swim can tell they use their tail a LOT. And if asked, or likely even if I was not asked, I would tell the owner I thought it was stupid. But it would be their dog.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I have seen a LOT of happy/split tail (we call it happy tail) at work, and I can only think of two dogs that did what Jb described- and when they spray blood, they SPRAY it. Concrete room at a shelter covered in blood, can't imagine what a truck would have looked like. Both of those dogs ended up having to have the ends of their tails removed as adults, one was so nerve damaged that she didn't know when she was hitting it on stuff. Other may have been an injury, can't remember exactly. One redtick hound, one pointer mix.

That being said, by far it's the pitties that have the most issues with happy tail because of short fur. This may also be due to the fact that I see a lot
More pitties than pointers, idk.

But out of (3000?) dogs in my time there I can only remember those two.

Not going to get into the crop dock argument, just providing observations.


----------



## goldengirl11 (Mar 3, 2015)

I personally like the look of undocked uncropped dogs much better but I respect that others do not. That being said, I don't support altering a dog for aesthetic reasons. I can understand some dogs needing their tails docked as I have seen enough injured tails causing much more harm than good. But I can't understand the ears. (I mean who doesn't love those soft floppy ears bouncing around while your pup runs?!) 

I used to believe it was better for dogs to have dewclaws removed, though I don't know why I thought that (maybe there are good reasons?). My current dog has his dewclaws and has no issues with them so I'm thinking with our new pup coming soon, we will likely leave him just as he is!! (Aside from being neutered in a year of course)


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I just spent the entire day at the local pet expo with Carsten. He had literally hundreds of people petting him today and ten thousand walking by etc.... If ever there was an argument for keeping a tail for me, it happened today. A little boy stuck his finger up Carstens butt while several others were petting him from the front. The kid had the audacity to complain that he thought he had poop on his finger. A tail MIGHT have prevented that. That said, Carsten wears his tail very high all the time so maybe not. I was happy to not have a tail when all the wheelchairs and motorized scooters were going by.

goldengirl11 I personally think the only dewclaws that need to be removed are the ones that are loose and flappy. I have not had any injuries on tight dewclaws on any of my dogs and they run through the woods and brush all the time.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Rescued said:


> I have seen a LOT of happy/split tail (we call it happy tail) at work, and I can only think of two dogs that did what Jb described- and when they spray blood, they SPRAY it. Concrete room at a shelter covered in blood, can't imagine what a truck would have looked like. Both of those dogs ended up having to have the ends of their tails removed as adults, one was so nerve damaged that she didn't know when she was hitting it on stuff. Other may have been an injury, can't remember exactly. One redtick hound, one pointer mix.
> 
> That being said, by far it's the pitties that have the most issues with happy tail because of short fur. This may also be due to the fact that I see a lot
> More pitties than pointers, idk.
> ...


I have seen three that got bad injuries to the tail.... Two ACDs and a Redbone Hound...

Bloody messes every time.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Inga said:


> I just spent the entire day at the local pet expo with Carsten. He had literally hundreds of people petting him today and ten thousand walking by etc.... If ever there was an argument for keeping a tail for me, it happened today. A little boy stuck his finger up Carstens butt while several others were petting him from the front. The kid had the audacity to complain that he thought he had poop on his finger. .


I can eat a fried spam and grape jelly sandwich while skinning a rank wild boar hog... So this my seem odd coming from me.... When I had my rottie the thing I noticed that bothered me was that I could see his butt hole.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Only the dog knows for sure......


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I can eat a fried spam and grape jelly sandwich while skinning a rank wild boar hog... So this my seem odd coming from me.... When I had my rottie the thing I noticed that bothered me was that I could see his butt hole.


Ha Ha Yeah, it isn't Carstens best feature but... I love hm despite that. Some of my Rotties had enough feathering that it wasn't really visible.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> I call bullcrap on not really liking a breed if you don't like them uncropped/undocked. One of the the reasons you get a breed is because of the way it looks.
> 
> And I shouldn't look at a Dobe and feel like my heart is melting. They're meant to look intimidating, not sweet. If a sweet soft expression is what you like, go for a hound.
> 
> Of course, a natural Dobe looks like a hound...so there ya go.


YES. (too short)


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

On the horse thing- I geld all my horses. I do have a stallion. I just have not gotten around to gelding him yet. It is a common theory in horses that are gelded early tend to be taller than the horse who was gelded later. He is a miniature and I did not want him to become too tall. Maybe this spring/fall I will get around to it. He is easy to handle and really no problem. The issue with leaving him intact is this. I can not leave him out with the rest of the herd. He is in a lot by himself. Horses are herd animals and meant to live in a group. I do not want to have pregnant mares. I really feel bad for this horse who can only visit the rest of the horses through the fence. This is not how horses should live. It is about horse living peacefully as can be in a group year round. 

Here is the problem I have with people keeping their dog intact. Not everyone is as smart or knowledgeable in reproduction of dogs as what JB and others are and that is where the problem is at. Spaying and neutering is not only for convience but sanity as well. That is all a working mother of 3 needs on her plate is a litter of 7 pups to take care of on top of her to do list. People themselves do not know how they got pregnant do you really think they will have the knowledge of the reproduction cycle of a dog? I can not tell you how many times I have answered questions from dog owners whose dogs were having puppies the first time. These people do not have a clue on how long a dog is pregnant, that a litter can have multiple fathers to a litter. AND why would you wait till the dog is having puppies to find out what needs to get done. Plus the people who breed their two dogs because oh their dog is so sweet and beautiful and would make great puppies. JB I know would not breed his lab, Keely to Merlin, his ACD to have a litter and make some money selling the pups for $100, nor would he say they are a designer breed called an Aus-a-dor and charge $1500. Even in his drug induced medical recovery he had enough wits and care not to let his two dogs breed because it would have just been easier on him. Not everybody is like this and that is where I get the grrrrr! just spay/neuter your dog. I know that some owners had to have their dog spayed/neutered later in life due to increasing the dog's longevity. If you are going to keep an intact animal, learn about their repro cycle. 

Seeing the dog's butt hole- Yes I had this conversation with myself out on one of the poo/pee walks. I looked up and most of my pack was a head of me and I thought why do I have so many dogs that walk with their tail over their backs. All I can see is butt holes.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Inga said:


> Ha Ha Yeah, it isn't Carstens best feature but... I love hm despite that. Some of my Rotties had enough feathering that it wasn't really visible.


LOL I dont have to worry about "butthole cleavage" with Lincoln, either, thanks to feathering.

And on the subject of gelding horses and neutering dogs, it is not even the same thing, a 1-2 year old adolescent stud horse can go two ways, they are either mean buttheads, or they are laid back and "lazy". there is no in between. and let me tell you that a mean adolescent stud horse can KILL you.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Here is the problem I have with people keeping their dog intact. Not everyone is as smart or knowledgeable in reproduction of dogs as what JB and others are and that is where the problem is at. Spaying and neutering is not only for convience but sanity as well. That is all a working mother of 3 needs on her plate is a litter of 7 pups to take care of on top of her to do list. People themselves do not know how they got pregnant do you really think they will have the knowledge of the reproduction cycle of a dog? I can not tell you how many times I have answered questions from dog owners whose dogs were having puppies the first time. These people do not have a clue on how long a dog is pregnant, that a litter can have multiple fathers to a litter. AND why would you wait till the dog is having puppies to find out what needs to get done. Plus the people who breed their two dogs because oh their dog is so sweet and beautiful and would make great puppies. JB I know would not breed his lab, Keely to Merlin, his ACD to have a litter and make some money selling the pups for $100, nor would he say they are a designer breed called an Aus-a-dor and charge $1500. Even in his drug induced medical recovery he had enough wits and care not to let his two dogs breed because it would have just been easier on him. Not everybody is like this and that is where I get the grrrrr! just spay/neuter your dog. I know that some owners had to have their dog spayed/neutered later in life due to increasing the dog's longevity. If you are going to keep an intact animal, learn about their repro cycle.
> 
> Seeing the dog's butt hole- Yes I had this conversation with myself out on one of the poo/pee walks. I looked up and most of my pack was a head of me and I thought why do I have so many dogs that walk with their tail over their backs. All I can see is butt holes.


I am not anti speuter....

I thought your comment about humans not knowing how they got pregnant..... I thought it was LOL. 

And I will be the first to say.... I am not better, smarter, etc.. Than anyone.... And I think most anyone can do it. But it does take some knowledge. And you have to pay attention...
.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I know I cannot keep an intact female responsibly, so as a result, all my females I have will be spayed. But, knowing what I know now, I dont think I will be spaying my boys, unless they give me a reason to.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

I know a family with 4 kids and 5 dogs. All dogs are unspayed females. All their past dogs were unspayed females. No oops litters at all since the couple married.

Louie is not neutered and probably never will be. We neutered Clyde at 2 because we were concerned about not being able to handle him. We have never had a dog father an oops litter.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

BigLittle said:


> I know a family with 4 kids and 5 dogs. All dogs are unspayed females. All their past dogs were unspayed females. No oops litters at all since the couple married.
> 
> Louie is not neutered and probably never will be. We neutered Clyde at 2 because we were concerned about not being able to handle him. We have never had a dog father an oops litter.


No, I was talking about be personally, how I am not responsible enough to keep an intact female. I wasnt saying no one should have an intact female LOL ... only I know I cant.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> No, I was talking about be personally, how I am not responsible enough to keep an intact female. I wasnt saying no one should have an intact female LOL ... only I know I cant.


Sorry, wasn't replying to you...

Just throwing out an example of how someone can responsibly own intact aninals and not speuter.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am not anti speuter....
> 
> I thought your comment about humans not knowing how they got pregnant..... I thought it was LOL.
> 
> ...


No some people just do not even have a clue on their repro cycle yet alone on a dog. Honestly when you have a female person say to you that they do not know how they got pregnant because they are on the pill, used condoms, did the pull out system and just can not understand how they got pregnant because they were on or used protection. They must of been sick that day in health class!

Not only does it take knowledge but the desire/want to not have your dogs breed. Last 12 months from breeders; I did not think he would breed with my female because he only does it if I tell him it is okay. I went to the store and my husband let the dogs out. The two dogs were tied when he let them back in. Went away for the weekend and told the dog sitter not to let the two dogs out together. My son stopped over with his dog and he let them all out together in the backyard. He looked out the window to see the two dogs tied. I forgot to tell my son the dog was in heat for the first time. NON_Breeder- I did not think the two dogs would breed. After all he bred with his mother. I did not think dogs would do that. Another non-breeder - What do you mean a brother and a sister should not breed- I have done it before and all the puppies were just fine.

Sometimes we should give out awards.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> No some people just do not even have a clue on their repro cycle yet alone on a dog. Honestly when you have a female person say to you that they do not know how they got pregnant because they are on the pill, used condoms, did the pull out system and just can not understand how they got pregnant because they were on or used protection. They must of been sick that day in health class!
> 
> Not only does it take knowledge but the desire/want to not have your dogs breed. Last 12 months from breeders; I did not think he would breed with my female because he only does it if I tell him it is okay. I went to the store and my husband let the dogs out. The two dogs were tied when he let them back in. Went away for the weekend and told the dog sitter not to let the two dogs out together. My son stopped over with his dog and he let them all out together in the backyard. He looked out the window to see the two dogs tied. I forgot to tell my son the dog was in heat for the first time. NON_Breeder- I did not think the two dogs would breed. After all he bred with his mother. I did not think dogs would do that. Another non-breeder - What do you mean a brother and a sister should not breed- I have done it before and all the puppies were just fine.
> 
> Sometimes we should give out awards.


AHHH! the stupid, it burns!!!


----------



## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Xeph said:


> I call bullcrap on not really liking a breed if you don't like them uncropped/undocked. One of the the reasons you get a breed is because of the way it looks.
> 
> And I shouldn't look at a Dobe and feel like my heart is melting. They're meant to look intimidating, not sweet. If a sweet soft expression is what you like, go for a hound.
> 
> Of course, a natural Dobe looks like a hound...so there ya go.


If they are meant to look a certain way, why aren't they bred to look that way? Give them natural upright ears, instead of cropping the ears and subject both owners and the dogs to months of ear taping.


----------



## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

luv mi pets said:


> No some people just do not even have a clue on their repro cycle yet alone on a dog. Honestly when you have a female person say to you that they do not know how they got pregnant because they are on the pill, used condoms, did the pull out system and just can not understand how they got pregnant because they were on or used protection. They must of been sick that day in health class!
> 
> Not only does it take knowledge but the desire/want to not have your dogs breed. Last 12 months from breeders; I did not think he would breed with my female because he only does it if I tell him it is okay. I went to the store and my husband let the dogs out. The two dogs were tied when he let them back in. Went away for the weekend and told the dog sitter not to let the two dogs out together. My son stopped over with his dog and he let them all out together in the backyard. He looked out the window to see the two dogs tied. I forgot to tell my son the dog was in heat for the first time. NON_Breeder- I did not think the two dogs would breed. After all he bred with his mother. I did not think dogs would do that. Another non-breeder - What do you mean a brother and a sister should not breed- I have done it before and all the puppies were just fine.
> 
> Sometimes we should give out awards.


Freyja is the result of an "oops" litter. The owner insisted that her father was their mastiff mix (they say he is an American Bulldog x Great Dane, he looked like a bully x mastiff to me but whatever, big mastiff bully looking dog). I've posted pics of Freyja, she is clearly a husky mix and she is 36lbs full grown. I pressed them on it a few times as she never grew and never looked like a mastiff mix. Finally the owner admitted that the neighbor's GSD tied with her mom but the mastiff mix "has to be the father because they live together" Yep, logic. That was her mother's first heat too. The whole litter looked like husky x shepherd mixes.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Last 12 months from breeders; I did not think he would breed with my female because he only does it if I tell him it is okay. I went to the store and my husband let the dogs out. The two dogs were tied when he let them back in. Went away for the weekend and told the dog sitter not to let the two dogs out together. My son stopped over with his dog and he let them all out together in the backyard. He looked out the window to see the two dogs tied. I forgot to tell my son the dog was in heat for the first time.


Those are not breeders... Just idiots breeding dogs....


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

lil_fuzzy said:


> If they are meant to look a certain way, why aren't they bred to look that way? Give them natural upright ears, instead of cropping the ears and subject both owners and the dogs to months of ear taping.


There's actually been some studies that theorize that floppy ears are one of the results of domestication, and breeding it out of the dog could have negative side-effects. 

Why So Many Domesticated Mammals Have Floppy Ears
Dogs' Floppy Ears Are a Symptom of 'Domestication Syndrome

Not sure how that ties with domesticated dogs who are prick eared, but it's an interesting thing to consider.


----------



## gwd (Sep 6, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I know I cannot keep an intact female responsibly, so as a result, all my females I have will be spayed. But, knowing what I know now, I dont think I will be spaying my boys, unless they give me a reason to.


There is always the option of an OSS procedure which allows you to retain the normal hormone production and still provides the advantage of sterilization. I wish more vets would offer vasectomies and OSS procedures but they won't become commonplace unless there is a public demand and the S/N message has convinced everyone that ti's the only way to go.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

chimunga said:


> There's actually been some studies that theorize that floppy ears are one of the results of domestication, and breeding it out of the dog could have negative side-effects.
> 
> Why So Many Domesticated Mammals Have Floppy Ears
> Dogs' Floppy Ears Are a Symptom of 'Domestication Syndrome
> ...


In the Russian fox experiment the ears went floppy quick....

But more of the breeds I like best have natural prick ears.


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> In the Russian fox experiment the ears went floppy quick....
> 
> But more of the breeds I like best have natural prick ears.


Agreed. I don't think there any any flop eared breeds that I am genuinly drawn to. Maybe rotties and APBTs. But I really do prefer prick eared breeds.


----------



## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I mostly prefer prick eared dogs but I also love some of the rose eared dogs like APBTs (I guess they can really have a range of ears and I don't like a crop on them at all), American Bulldogs (love their natural ears, Duke's ears were so soft and he loved to have them rubbed), Grey Hounds, Scottish Deer Hounds, really I think I should just list most of the sight hounds here. I guess Collies have sort of half perk ears (though I like them just as well fully perk).


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Doberman ears naturally try to stand. It's why posting works. Same for Dane ears.

Lab ears do not try to stand. If you tried to crop them like a Dobe or Dane, they would flop. Feel the cartilage of an adult Lab or Golden vs that of a naturally prick earred breed. It is not nearly as firm.


----------



## Silly Dog (Mar 3, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> And on the subject of gelding horses and neutering dogs, it is not even the same thing, a 1-2 year old adolescent stud horse can go two ways, they are either mean buttheads, or they are laid back and "lazy". there is no in between. and let me tell you that a mean adolescent stud horse can KILL you.


I wasn't really comparing the two when I brought up the subject, was more interested to see whether the people who were staunchly against altering a dog extended it to horses. Just curious whether their position was backstopped with practicality somewhere. Certainly they're two different situations.

In addition to stallions I've known a couple of TB mares I might have liked to spay. If stupid hurts, stupid plus mean mare hurts worse.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Just wanted to clarify something, as I've seen many people say that cropping and docking are illegal in Europe; that's not entirely true. The truth is that it depends on the country. In Spain, for instance, both cropping and docking are legal; in France, cropping is illegal but docking is; in the UK, both are illegal except for working dogs, which may be docked; and according to what Avie said, in the Netherlands neither are allowed, period. But there is definitely no consensus amongst european countries regarding cropping and docking (including when it comes to showing them; in France, for example, you can show an imported cropped dog, but I don't think that is the case in most other anti-cropping countries).

I loathe cropping - both the practice and the look, which I find very unnatural (truth be told I find cropped ears very hard to look at and they completely distract me from the rest of the dog's body) and I wouldn't buy a docked dog either. I'm very pleased to see more and more tailed dogs in France and I do hope it's banned someday. Incidentally, docking horses has been illegal for something like 20 years.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Good point Whistejacket. And yeah, it is illegal here, period. Even if your cropped dog is imported from a country where it is legal, your dog can't be shown. 

And docking of horses is plain stupid. They need their tail to keep pests off them.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Whistlejacket said:


> in the UK, both are illegal except for working dogs, which may be docked


This was my understanding as well, so I was wondering why Johnny Bandit was going on about "Scottish gamekeepers" wanting to decriminalize docking. AFAIK if the dogs are working dogs, they can already be docked.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Avie said:


> And docking of horses is plain stupid. They need their tail to keep pests off them.


I've only ever heard of draft horses being docked, and my guess is that it's because the tail risked getting caught in whatever they pulled... I don't really know though, I haven't researched the topic further. But draft horses are hardly used as working animals anymore, and those who do work manage to do so with entire tails, so I agree it's unnecessary and cruel. 

As a general rule, I really wish France would follow the example set by the Netherlands, the Nordic five and other more progressive countries when it comes to keeping animals.



parus said:


> This was my understanding as well, so I was wondering why Johnny Bandit was going on about "Scottish gamekeepers" wanting to decriminalize docking. AFAIK if the dogs are working dogs, they can already be docked.


I didn't know this until now, but apparently Scotland is the exception and docking is completely banned there: "The docking of dogs' tails was banned in England from 6 April 2007 and in Wales from 28 March 2007 but with exemptions from the ban for certain working dogs, and for medical treatment.* A total ban in Scotland took effect 30 April 2007*"

(source: http://www.cdb.org/awa/)


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> This was my understanding as well, so I was wondering why Johnny Bandit was going on about "Scottish gamekeepers" wanting to decriminalize docking. AFAIK if the dogs are working dogs, they can already be docked.


If you were wondering, it is because you failed to read the documentation, the studies etc that I posted. 

Not legal in Scotland.... Read the supporting documentation I posted...... 

It was banned in 2007 and the game keepers are working to get it overturned..

I have donated money to their cause....


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

lol, believe me, I feel this failure very keenly


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> lol, believe me, I feel this failure very keenly


Well..... You wondered what I was going on about cropping and docking in Scotland. It is illegal to crop or dock dogs in Scotland. Even working dogs....

And if you knew anything about the UK, you would know that Scotland, Wales, Ireland..... In many cases are self governing.... To say working dogs may be docked in the UK, would be an incorrect statement. It depends on where you are in the UK.....

But you inspire me......


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Tell us more about how Ireland is part of the UK, professor.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> Tell us more about how Ireland is part of the UK, professor.


I left out the Northern....

Ireland itself is independent. 

Many people do not know this but Ireland never declared war on Germany in WWII


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If you were wondering, it is because you failed to read the documentation, the studies etc that I posted.
> 
> Not legal in Scotland.... Read the supporting documentation I posted......
> 
> ...


Yes, because jut like speutering, it should be the owners CHOICE, what I have an issue with also is "big brother" telling people that they cannot alter their dogs in responsible ways (via professional/vet). It is just not right, IMHO.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Avie said:


> Good point Whistejacket. And yeah, it is illegal here, period. Even if your cropped dog is imported from a country where it is legal, your dog can't be shown.
> 
> And docking of horses is plain stupid. They need their tail to keep pests off them.


that is another issue I have, why the heck cant a dog be shown if it is imported, or coming from a country where docking is allowed? I heard at the KC, they werent allowing dogs from countries that allowed cropping and docking to show, which IMO is wrong. I could see banning a cropped/docked dog in a country where it is outlawed, but banning dogs FROM countries where it IS legal is just IMO bad business.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Bob my older Clydes is docked, he spent the first part of his life as a carriage horse.. the tail hair grows just as long and thick as my natural Clydes tail so he has no issue keeping flys off of him successfully. I've seen docked horses were allowed the tail hair to grow then braid it up into a tight bob when in harness.


----------



## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> that is another issue I have, why the heck cant a dog be shown if it is imported, or coming from a country where docking is allowed? I heard at the KC, they werent allowing dogs from countries that allowed cropping and docking to show, which IMO is wrong. I could see banning a cropped/docked dog in a country where it is outlawed, but banning dogs FROM countries where it IS legal is just IMO bad business.


I take issue with that too. I understand that they're trying to take a stand against cropping and docking, but most owners have no choice as to whether their dog is docked or cropped. So if I buy a dog that I intend to show and start a breeding program with, it's my fault that my breeder decided to alter the dog? Nu-uh. Not okay. Do you know how hard it is to find a corgi breeder in the states that doesn't dock? Jeez.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The dock/crop ban would thoroughly meaningless if they allowed docked/cropped dogs to show, because then the cut dogs would possibly get preference and then everyone would start sending their dogs to a different country to get cropped. . .etc.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> The dock/crop ban would thoroughly meaningless if they allowed docked/cropped dogs to show, because then the cut dogs would possibly get preference and then everyone would start sending their dogs to a different country to get cropped. . .etc.


I dont think you understand how dog shows work. because at a place like Crufts, the undocked animals would take favorite with the judges (its not supposed to, but it would). Much like one has to have a REALLY good natural dobe or dane to win here, so it would be the same with a cropped dane, or dobe at a show like Crufts.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL another country can have whatever laws it likes. I doubt they're bemoaning the loss of a few whiny Americans' dogs being shown at Crufts.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> LOL another country can have whatever laws it likes. I doubt they're bemoaning the loss of a few whiny Americans' dogs being shown at Crufts.


I dont think it was "just a few" and what is to say it wont snowball into the AKC saying "well, we'll just make a rule saying that a dog cant be shown in the US unless its docked/cropped!" Those who want to campaign their dogs internationally would suffer for it, and it really doesnt help their stance against cropping if they alienate countries that do it, IMO it will make those countries more apt to want to "to it their way" and less willing to listen.

Though, IMO the ideal thing the AKC should do is revise the standards so natural dogs are allowed, instead of banning docking and cropping all together.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I think Crufts is doing just fine, lol. And the AKC isn't going to make any rules like that, they don't have anything to do with writing breed standards. It would be a PR nightmare for them to do so anyway.

The US isn't the center of the universe. If another country has convictions they actually think are important, then more power to them. Don't go there & don't show there if you don't like it, I'm sure they'll be crying themselves to sleep.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> LOL another country can have whatever laws it likes. I doubt they're bemoaning the loss of a few whiny Americans' dogs being shown at Crufts.


It is not just a few dogs from the United States Go to Crufts. 

Crufts is part of the triple crown..... And it is a huge deal. A LOT of US dogs go to crufts....


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Wah wah cropping wah other country's laws... that's all I'm hearing right now.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Seems kind of dumb to allow ears and tail to be cosmetically surgically altered for conformation when nothing else is allowed to be surgically altered, anyway.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Wah wah cropping wah other country's laws... that's all I'm hearing right now.


You have xray hearing...

all I was saying is that a lot of US dogs go to Crufts..... Varies by year... 

A couple of hundred on a good year. some years less.... The only reason to go is if you have the two US legs of the crown......

Frankly the only reason to go to westminster for me is if I take Best of breed at The AKC National Championship. 

IF I took both.... Would I go to Crufts.... PRobably..... But it would take a LOT of xanax.... 


In theory dogs docked in a country where it is legal can be shown at Crufts..... But that window is closing... Because the dog has to have been docked before 2007. But that is not the rule of the KC in the UK. That is UK law. No dog docked after 2007 can be presented where the public pays an entry fee... Not many dogs actively showing that were docked by 2007.
I am confident the KC would still welcome docked US dogs if they could.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Meh, I'm not enamored with Crufts to begin with, but I'm an admitted AKC snob. Presentation is a big deal to me, and it's lacking over there. They can do what they like, I'm relatively content in my "bubble."


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Meh, I'm not enamored with Crufts to begin with, but I'm an admitted AKC snob. Presentation is a big deal to me, and it's lacking over there. They can do what they like, I'm relatively content in my "bubble."


Only reason would go is the try for the crown..... 

I hear from those I know that have gone.... It is tedious......
But Westminster is very tedious....


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It is not just a few dogs from the United States Go to Crufts.
> 
> Crufts is part of the triple crown..... And it is a huge deal. A LOT of US dogs go to crufts....


Yep and a lot of dogs who show at KC come here, I have to say, as the owner of a docked mini american, if I did decide to campaign him in conformation, I certainly wouldnt show under the KC.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yep and a lot of dogs who show at KC come here, I have to say, as the owner of a docked mini american, if I did decide to campaign him in conformation, I certainly wouldnt show under the KC.


Welp, there goes that trip to London.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> Meh, I'm not enamored with Crufts to begin with, but I'm an admitted AKC snob. Presentation is a big deal to me, and it's lacking over there. They can do what they like, I'm relatively content in my "bubble."


Yeah, like crying "abuse" about the way someone picked up a scottie LOL.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yep and a lot of dogs who show at KC come here, I have to say, as the owner of a docked mini american, if I did decide to campaign him in conformation, I certainly wouldnt show under the KC.


Well technically you would not be able to show in KC, because The KC does not recognize the MAS.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Welp, there goes that trip to London.


I am going to London.... And Germany, and Italy.... Hopefully next year....

Lots and lots of Xanax


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am going to London.... And Germany, and Italy.... Hopefully next year....
> 
> Lots and lots of Xanax


Watch out for sharks!


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Watch out for sharks!


I like sharks....

I would rather skinny dip with three bull sharks, a couple of tigers and several great whites than fly......

Far more worried about co pilots under psychiatric care....


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Well technically you would not be able to show in KC, because The KC does not recognize the MAS.


No, but they will. though I was speaking in hypotheticals about showing.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Willowy said:


> The dock/crop ban would thoroughly meaningless if they allowed docked/cropped dogs to show, because then the cut dogs would possibly get preference and then everyone would start sending their dogs to a different country to get cropped. . .etc.


Precisely. And in fact, it's not common, but it happens. I live in a country where cropping is banned, but I'm very close to the border of another country where cropping is legal... guess what happens? Yep, some people take their puppies there to be cropped. It does seem the tendency is to leave dogs all natural, which I'm thankful for, but if importing cropped dogs and taking dogs abroad to be cropped were outright forbidden, the law would hold much more weight.

As an aside, I find it funny how so many people's main argument is "if you don't like it, don't do it, but leave us alone", yet they can't accept that a different country takes that exact stance, but with a decision opposed to theirs.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> that is another issue I have, why the heck cant a dog be shown if it is imported, or coming from a country where docking is allowed? I heard at the KC, they werent allowing dogs from countries that allowed cropping and docking to show, which IMO is wrong. I could see banning a cropped/docked dog in a country where it is outlawed, but banning dogs FROM countries where it IS legal is just IMO bad business.





chimunga said:


> I take issue with that too. I understand that they're trying to take a stand against cropping and docking, but most owners have no choice as to whether their dog is docked or cropped. So if I buy a dog that I intend to show and start a breeding program with, it's my fault that my breeder decided to alter the dog? Nu-uh. Not okay. Do you know how hard it is to find a corgi breeder in the states that doesn't dock? Jeez.


You know that is a non-issue here in western Europe right? Owners and breeders have plenty of options to get natural dogs. You have to actually go out of your way to get a docked/cropped dog. 



Willowy said:


> The dock/crop ban would thoroughly meaningless if they allowed docked/cropped dogs to show, because then the cut dogs would possibly get preference and then everyone would start sending their dogs to a different country to get cropped. . .etc.


This is a very real thing, you've got that right. The people we got Mike from used to be into Dobermanns. All their dogs were cropped and docked. After Mike went to live with us, they got a Dobermann again--an import from Eastern Europe, just so they could have a cropped and docked dog again. Despite not being able to enter sports competitions and show competitions with a cropped/docked dog. These are people who keep a dog as a pet. It's certainly easy enough to import a dog from a country where it is still legal, there are plenty of dog brokers already for people who only want a pet. Imagine what would happen if cropped and docked dogs are allowed in competitions. 

By the way, they were allowed for a long time after the bans were put in place, to make sure there was a transitional phase for people who already owned or just bought a docked/cropped dog. I believe the transitional phases lasted what, 10 years? That stuff's over now. People have had time to adjust to the new rules, and now the ban is for ALL dogs, import or not.


----------



## MastiffGuy (Mar 23, 2015)

Not a cropper myself but I can see it for some of the working breeds being worked.
Tail docking is a area where I would never have it done to one of my dogs, know of to many with after issues do to it being done to short or not done correctly.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Whistlejacket said:


> As an aside, I find it funny how so many people's main argument is "if you don't like it, don't do it, but leave us alone", yet they can't accept that a different country takes that exact stance, but with a decision opposed to theirs.


Yes, I find this perplexing as well. "I should be able to do whatever I like in YOUR own country!" Wait, whut?


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

> Quote Originally Posted by Willowy View Post
> The dock/crop ban would thoroughly meaningless if they allowed docked/cropped dogs to show, because then the cut dogs would possibly get preference and then everyone would start sending their dogs to a different country to get cropped. . .etc.







Avie said:


> This is a very real thing, you've got that right. The people we got Mike from used to be into Dobermanns. All their dogs were cropped and docked. After Mike went to live with us, they got a Dobermann again--an import from Eastern Europe, just so they could have a cropped and docked dog again. Despite not being able to enter sports competitions and show competitions with a cropped/docked dog. These are people who keep a dog as a pet. It's certainly easy enough to import a dog from a country where it is still legal, there are plenty of dog brokers already for people who only want a pet. Imagine what would happen if cropped and docked dogs are allowed in competitions.
> 
> .


But this is not a real thing...... Natural specimens of traditionally docked breeds are showing up more and more in the show ring in the US..... And winning. Some are doing WELL.

And Xeph and Chaos can tell you.... IF AKC judges are open to the idea (Some of them very likely are NOT. But enough are there are people making serious campaigns with "natural" dogs in docked and or cropped breeds. ).... It will become more common place....

Even if you could compete with a docked dog at Crufts.... (You cannot because of UK Law) I personally would not be likely to take a docked dog..

Show judges feel pressure just like the rest of us.... Common sense would dictate a docked dog would stand very little chance of winning in a country or a club where docking is banned would be tiny.... Why cross and ocean to compete when you cannot win.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I actually saw a few uncropped Danes at the shows in Syracuse this past weekend.


----------



## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

Xeph said:


> I actually saw a few uncropped Danes at the shows in Syracuse this past weekend.


Syracuse. You're close to me. 

Last weekend I thought of this thread. I was at a pet food store and there were two Aussies there with different owners. Both were gorgeous tri coloured dogs. 
The dogs were interacting and I was patting both dogs and chatting with the owners. One dog had a tail and the others was docked. 
As I commented on how pretty the one with the tail was, the owner says "I'm just so happy that the breeder didn't dock her tail". She kinda just paused and looked at the other owner. The two owners went quiet and the man with the docked Aussie just walked away.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Syracuse. You're close to me.


Not really lol. I live in PA. Was only there for a show


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Yes, I find this perplexing as well. "I should be able to do whatever I like in YOUR own country!" Wait, whut?


Lol I don't think anyone is saying that, what we are saying is its ok to person ally not want a c/d dog, but please respect someone who does. I have no issues with what other countries do. I just don't like them pressuring us to do it too ... I take the same stance as Xeph does with her opinions on dobes. I think that a natural dobe looks houndish, and I think that an undocked aussie looks ugly.

As far as sending their dogs to other countries to be c/d, a simple look at where the dog was w helped would clear up that issue. But if someone imports a dog from a country where c/ d is legal, they should be able to compete with their dog.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Lol I don't think anyone is saying that, what we are saying is its ok to person ally not want a c/d dog, but please respect someone who does. I have no issues with what other countries do. I just don't like them pressuring us to do it too ...


But what do you call pressuring? I fail to see how not allowing altered dogs to be shown in a given country equals actively pressuring other countries to stop the practice. This measure is necessary in order to discourage people from said country to import altered dogs, so it's only a logical sequel to the law. I don't think the countries that forbid this practice are doing so to punish other countries that don't, just that they are looking out for the dogs and their well-being.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> But this is not a real thing...... Natural specimens of traditionally docked breeds are showing up more and more in the show ring in the US..... And winning. Some are doing WELL.
> 
> ...
> 
> Show judges feel pressure just like the rest of us.... Common sense would dictate a docked dog would stand very little chance of winning in a country or a club where docking is banned would be tiny.... Why cross and ocean to compete when you cannot win.


Maybe it's not a real thing in the USA, it is a real thing here. There is still enough animo among purebred dog owners and breeders for cropping and docking, especially in the older generation that grew up and was active with cropped and docked dogs. If entering competitions and shows was a viable option again, they would jump on the opportunity once more. And do consider that dog shows here have plenty of judges that come from countries where the practice is still allowed, in other words people who are used to the look and may or may not prefer the look. Judges are only human too. 

I'm with Whistlejacket, not allowing cropped and docked dogs to compete even when imported only makes sense. 

I do personally agree with your last statement, but I want to point out you're talking about foreigners wanting to compete here or at Crufts or any given country with a ban in place, which is different from domestic (? don't know if that's the right word) people who import cropped/docked dogs to compete in shows in their own country - which was what I was talking about.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I met a tailed Aussie, once. I didn't think it was ugly.

I thought it was a Border Collie.

The owner was insulted.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> I met a tailed Aussie, once. I didn't think it was ugly.
> 
> I thought it was a Border Collie.
> 
> The owner was insulted.


Lincoln gets BC enough even without a tail -_-. Then I get the whole "why did you dock that BCs tail!" First off I didn't dock him his breeder did! Secondly, he is not a BC!!!



> Maybe it's not a real thing in the USA, it is a real thing here. There is still enough animo among purebred dog owners and breeders for cropping and docking, especially in the older generation that grew up and was active with cropped and docked dogs. If entering competitions and shows was a viable option again, they would jump on the opportunity once more. And do consider that dog shows here have plenty of judges that come from countries where the practice is still allowed, in other words people who are used to the look and may or may not prefer the look. Judges are only human too.*
> 
> I'm with Whistlejacket, not allowing cropped and docked dogs to compete even when imported only makes sense.*
> 
> I do personally agree with your last statement, but I want to point out you're talking about foreigners wanting to compete here or at Crufts or any given country with a ban in place, which is different from domestic (? don't know if that's the right word) people who import cropped/docked dogs to compete in shows in their own country - which was what I was talking about.


So what if it did? Natural dogs would still be allowed to compete, so people who didn't want a cropped dog or didn't believe in it could still show with a natural dog.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Lol I don't think anyone is saying that, what we are saying is its ok to person ally not want a c/d dog, but please respect someone who does. I have no issues with what other countries do. I just don't like them pressuring us to do it too ... I take the same stance as Xeph does with her opinions on dobes. I think that a natural dobe looks houndish, and I think that an undocked aussie looks ugly.
> 
> As far as sending their dogs to other countries to be c/d, a simple look at where the dog was w helped would clear up that issue. But if someone imports a dog from a country where c/ d is legal, they should be able to compete with their dog.


Your last sentence directly contradicts the first.


----------



## Shep (May 16, 2013)

I don't understand why people think Dobermans with natural ears look "houndish." Does any dog with floppy ears look like a hound? If so, we'd better start cropping Weims, Vizslas, Pointers, GSPs, Dalmatians.... After all, we certainly wouldn't want them to be mistaken for hounds. Yuck!


----------



## Shep (May 16, 2013)

Xeph said:


> I met a tailed Aussie, once. I didn't think it was ugly.
> 
> I thought it was a Border Collie.
> 
> The owner was insulted.



My merle BC gets mistaken for an Aussie pretty much every day. Maybe I should dye him.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shep said:


> I don't understand why people think Dobermans with natural ears look "houndish." Does any dog with floppy ears look like a hound? If so, we'd better start cropping Weims, Vizslas, Pointers, GSPs, Dalmatians.... After all, we certainly wouldn't want them to be mistaken for hounds. Yuck!


I crack up at this. As far as I can tell it's because they're floppy eared and black and tan (often). I mean... people make lots of mistakes about dog breeds, I get that. People think my boston terrier is a pit bull ffs. 

But.



















In what universe can you seriously not tell those two apart? And that's an unusually TIGHT skinned/moderate eared example. On purpose. Most look more like this:









That's like confusing a doberman and a rott. Fine, if you don't actually know either breed (or any examples of), but absolutely unmistakable if you pay any attention at all. 

And why is 'houndy' an insult, anyway? "I don't like the way it looks" "I prefer cropped" fine, whatever, cropping doesn't get my goats but HOUNDS? LOL. No.


----------



## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

I had a red/rust Doberman, docked the tail, left the ears natural, didn't want her to look mean

My Dogo will have his ears laser cropped in a couple of weeks. My brothers cane-corso gets bad ear infections, and his vet said they would be far fewer if he had done the ears. Other things I read include Dogos shaking their heads while playing and splitting the tips of their ears open. 

I don't know how valid either of those things are, but my puppy is getting cropped because I like the look of it.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Lincoln gets BC enough even without a tail -_-. Then I get the whole "why did you dock that BCs tail!" *First off I didn't dock him his breeder did!* Secondly, he is not a BC!!!


 I don't think you want to use that excuse. If you choose to support a breeder who docks, it's the same as doing it yourself. I doubt anyone who says that to you actually thinks YOU did the docking, they know the breeder does it. Pulling that line makes it sound like you don't approve of docking and are trying to weasel out of responsibility. If you really do think docking is an OK thing to do, have compelling arguments to support your stance. 

It doesn't matter one bit if other countries are trying to "pressure" the US. It will eventually come down to public opinion and if you want public opinion to support docking I hope you have a better argument than "wah wah, I have RIGHTS!" because that says you don't actually care about the dogs' welfare, only your rights. If someone truly believes that docking and cropping aren't damaging to the dogs they should tell people why and then maybe public opinion will be on their side.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shep said:


> I don't understand why people think Dobermans with natural ears look "houndish." Does any dog with floppy ears look like a hound? If so, we'd better start cropping Weims, Vizslas, Pointers, GSPs, Dalmatians.... After all, we certainly wouldn't want them to be mistaken for hounds. Yuck!


They look like a skinny B&T coonhound mix....


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Do you have any idea how impossible it is to find a breeder who doesn't dock, in the US, of commonly docked breeds? Cropping you can avoid because it's done later, but docking is done at about 2 days old. Because docked dogs are the ones who show well here, any breeder showing conformation and most who don't are going to be docking their pups before they know which puppy is going where. 

The ONLY way you are going to find a breeder who doesn't dock is to give money to a breeder who doesn't show and often cuts 'other' corners as well. 

It sucks. It's bad. I wish there was a better way to apply pressure, but it's not about I HAVE THE RIGHT TO for most people. It's about the better breeders (yes, even with cropping and docking) being the ones who CROP AND DOCK. You want a docked breed from a decent breeder who health tests in this country, it's GOING to come docked. 

The only way to change it is, frankly, to change at a breed club and conformation level. As long as it's necessary to win in the show ring, good breeders are going to do it.



JohnnyBandit said:


> They look like a skinny B&T coonhound mix....


Oh, baloney. They do not and you know too much about dogs to try and pull that kind of ignorant BS off with a straight face. Or anyone to take you seriously when you do. It just makes you look like you don't know crap about dogs and can't tell one breed from another if they're within 30lbs of each other, the same color, and both have floppy ears of some size and any set.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shep said:


> My merle BC gets mistaken for an Aussie pretty much every day. Maybe I should dye him.


I have a smooth coat BC. Do they make dog wigs?

I mean ffs, people, dock and crop if you want to I don't particularly like it OR care, but this 'mistaken for another breed is reason to do so' is just silly.


----------



## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

A dalmation looks like an English coonhound mix with black spots
A beauceron looks like a B&T with a double coat and shorter ears
Weimaraners look too much like a coonhound/lacy mix
A pug looks like a tan boston terrier
Aussies look like border collies

Lets just alter them so much that no dog looks like any other breed that ever existed in any way.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

A lot of the herding breeds look pretty similar. I've seen English shepherds that look like BCs, Koolies that look like smooth coated BCs, smooth pyrsheps that look like MAS or Aussies, MAS that are bigger than Aussies, Tailed aussies that look like BCs, BCs that look like aussies, Tailed Aussies that look like English shepherds....

I've even seen a couple dogs where it takes me a bit to decide small show BC or large sheltie. 

I mean... they're all pretty closely related.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> I have a smooth coat BC. Do they make dog wigs?
> 
> I mean ffs, people, dock and crop if you want to I don't particularly like it OR care, but this 'mistaken for another breed is reason to do so' is just silly.


Right? OH NOES MY PRECIOUS EGO is all I hear.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> They look like a skinny B&T coonhound mix....


I think they look like dobes... because they are dobes. *Shrugs*

It may not be a look north americans are used to, but in a lot of european countries, uncropped dobes are the norm and a lot of non-dog people are able to recognise them easily. I personally don't think natural dobermans look like hounds at all (not that I don't like the hound look - I love it), and that's with european dobes having looser flews and everything. Plus dobe tails are pretty distinctive - either they're docked, which suggests the dog is not a hound, or they are left natural and have that lovely sickle shape which also distinguishes them from hounds. So really, I don't get that argument.


----------



## Shep (May 16, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I have a smooth coat BC.


I do too. AND he has a lot of ticking on his paws, face, and chest. So people think he's a Cattle Dog. That's what happens when people breed strictly for working ability without giving a hoot what the dogs look like. But he couldn't ACT more like a stereotypical Border Collie if he tried, lol.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Plus, it doesn't really matter. Literally one person has believed me unquestioningly that Squash is an Alaskan mix, and the most guessed breed is Dogo. I get complimented on my GSD puppy CONSTANTLY. Who cares? Doesn't affect what my dogs actually are or make me wish their tails were lopped off.

Call it what it is: Tradition and cosmetics (kudos to those who have). If you don't think those are good enough reasons to support the practice, then maybe it's unsupportable?


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I was not interested in getting a cropped Doberman when I got Kris. Since then I have been on a couple of Doberman forums and all I hear is that the breeder is not a good one if they do not crop and dock their pups. They say the standard calls for them to be docked and cropped so you are not following the standard if you do not do it, so therefore you are not a "good" breeder.

I am glad I have the choice of whether I do it or not. I doubt very much if you could find a Doberman and a lot of other breeds that are not docked though mostly because it is done so young that at that point if you are planning on showing, you would not know what puppy to leave with a natural tail.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh noes, THE ALMIGHTY STANDARD! Honestly that one cracks me up, too. As if the AKC standard is a commandment handed down by god himself. There are several breeds I prefer out of standard.

Change is hard.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Sass, your comments make my day.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Lolz my Aussie is mistaken for a BC all the time, even without a tail. I'll gladly admit I prefer the docked look of an Aussie and the wiggle butt that comes with a nub. I fell in love with the breed.. down to the TRADITION of the docked tail. I see a little bit more possible argument for docking in working dogs.. not really a great one though. I would absolutely buy a full tailed Aussie (I really don't care for half tails) in a heartbeat. If docking was illegal I wouldn't really care. I still love my breed.

I also think uncropped Dobermans are beautiful. I mean.. I do prefer the docked ones but it's probably just because I'm really not used to seeing tails on them. I'm sure I would adjust and find them just as pretty. Most people would move on too.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Oh noes, THE ALMIGHTY STANDARD! Honestly that one cracks me up, too. As if the AKC standard is a commandment handed down by god himself. There are several breeds I prefer out of standard.
> 
> Change is hard.


The standard is not the AKC.... But rather the parent breed club....

The breed clubs adopt the standard, amendments to the standard, etc.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shep said:


> I do too. AND he has a lot of ticking on his paws, face, and chest. So people think he's a Cattle Dog. That's what happens when people breed strictly for working ability without giving a hoot what the dogs look like. But he couldn't ACT more like a stereotypical Border Collie if he tried, lol.


Yeeep.










She is recognized as a BC by roughly 0% of people who are only involved in conformation BCs and the general public and 100% of people who have working dogs. About 50% of sports people.

And in fairness her dad may or may not be purebred. She's either 75% BC or 100%, but dad's dad might have been an ACD. (In short, there's one unknown grandparent that was PROBABLY a BC but might not have been). Either way, she couldn't be a more steretypical BC behaviorally if she tried. Lack of coat throws people entirely. 

I fail to care. Well, much. I spent a while growling every time somebody would watch her crouch and stalk and ask what kind of lab mix she was. Not offended ego, though, just forgetting lots of people don't know dogs.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The standard is not the AKC.... But rather the parent breed club....
> 
> The breed clubs adopt the standard, amendments to the standard, etc.


I didn't say the AKC wrote the standard.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avie said:


> Sass, your comments make my day.


The AKC, FCI, Canadian Kennel Club, and KC (UK) Standard is very close on nearly every breed... The only variation is on docking and cropping. 

The FCI which covers most of Europe, as I am sure you know....
The breed clubs simply added a caveat to the standard to allow for legislation banning docking and cropping. 

For example:


FCI standard for ears in Dobes:
EARS The ear, which is set high, is carried erect and cropped to a length in proportion to the head. *In a country where cropping is not permitted the uncropped ear is equally recognised. (Medium size preferred and with the front edge lying close to the cheeks.) 
*
and tails:
TAIL It is high set and docked short whereby approximately two tail vertebrae remain visible. *In countries where docking is legally not permitted the tail may remain natural*

Meanwhile the so called AKC standard ONLY says this about the ears...

Ears
normally cropped and carried erect. The upper attachment of the ear, when held erect, 
is on a level with the top of the skull
It is not a fault if they are not cropped, it is not a disqualification if they are not docked. 

The US Standard on Boxers.....

Ears...

Ears
Ears
-
Set at the highest points of the sides of the skull, the ears are customarily cropped, cut rather long 
and tapering, and raised when alert. If uncropped, the ears should be of moderate size, thin, lying 
flat and close to the cheeks in repose, but 
falling forward with a definite crease when alert.

Great Dane:
Ears shall be high set, medium in size and of moderate thickness,folded forward
close to the cheek The top line of the folded ear should be level with
the skull.If cropped,the ear length is in proportion to the size of
the head and the ears are
carried
uniformly
erect.

Schnauzers.....
Ears
set
high,
evenly
shaped
with
moderate
thickness
of
leather
and
car
ried
erect
when
cropped.
If
uncropped,
they
are
of
medium
size,
V
-
shaped
and
mobile
so
that
they
break
at
skull
level
and
are
carried
forward
with
the
inner
edge
close
to
the
cheek.
Faults
-
Prick,
or
hound
ears.

Folks want to bash standards.... But none that I have seen in any country disqualify or fault an uncropped or un docked dog.... And as you can see, most have an explanation of how the ears and/ or tail should be carried in a natural state.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> I didn't say the AKC wrote the standard.


I NEVER said you did....

You did say....


sassafras said:


> As if the *AKC standard* is a commandment handed down by god himself. There are several breeds I prefer out of standard.
> 
> Change is hard.


To which I said...


> The standard is not the AKC.... But rather the parent breed club....


It is NOT the AKC's standard.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, give me a break. You knew perfectly well what people mean when they say "AKC standard."


----------



## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

Glad I live in a country where I'm free to crop/dock if I want. A little backlash from avid dog people I can handle.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Oh, give me a break. You knew perfectly well what people mean when they say "AKC standard."


Are you serious? You were pretty clear..... You said, AKC Standard......

Most people tend to say the breed standard......


You were very specific......


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Are you serious? You were pretty clear..... You said, AKC Standard......
> 
> Most people tend to say the breed standard......
> 
> ...


Yes, I was specifying that I was talking about AKC, vs any other breed registry? Because it's not the only one in the world? (Although a lot of people seem to think it's the only one that matters.)

Pro tip: When you have to argue the semantics of one comment having little to do with the actual topic, you might be deflecting.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Pro tip: When you have to argue the semantics of one comment having little to do with the actual topic, you might be deflecting.


Advice you should heed.... But can never seem to pull off....


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Dang, who peed in your Cheerios this morning, man?


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Dang, who peed in your Cheerios this morning, man?


No one..... I am in a great mood...


----------



## Shep (May 16, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I fail to care. Well, much. I spent a while growling every time somebody would watch her crouch and stalk and ask what kind of lab mix she was. Not offended ego, though, just forgetting lots of people don't know dogs.


Here's my ACD mix -- uh, Border Collie.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Shep said:


> Here's my ACD mix -- uh, Border Collie.


Man he's gorgeous.

And man I love BC diversity.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> I fail to care. Well, much. I spent a while growling every time somebody would watch her crouch and stalk and ask what kind of lab mix she was. Not offended ego, though, just forgetting lots of people don't know dogs.


Lol this actually reminded me of a lab (mix? so theoretically could have been part BC I guess) that came into the dog park . It acted more BC than the BCs at the park . It was kind of trippy to watch though, she was very slinky and stalky. She came in the park and started stalking right away. It was really really weird.

There's also this dog that looks roughly like a leonberger (I'd guess GSD x pyr or something) that has a TON of eye when playing and is an incredible frisbee dog. He may be the weirdest dog I've seen in a while. 

The BC that Hank plays with is very upright and not stalky at all. Occasionally a lady with 2 BCs (1 smooth b/w and 1 red tri rough) comes in and her BW is very stalky. The red one isn't really. 

/totally off topic/


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It's neat to watch that predatory behavior appear. Honestly? KYLIE is sometimes pretty freaking stalky and uses a lot of eye. Well, if you catch her just right. Not capable of the same kind of crouch Molly uses and she sure can't run in it like Molly can, but I like it and it's cool and makes me happy. For reasons that have not a thing to do with anything.

And honestly, Molly's largely grown out of it now. I mean she does it and you see it, but it's reserved for very, very specific circumstances. When she was younger, ball or flirt poles would get her going. Now it's pretty much Thud, birds, and the very rare exposure to livestock.

It's just. Even if you don't know much about dogs - like enough to know BC can have short hair - surely to goodness most people recognize that crouch and creep as a BC thing. Not just a BC thing it's not, but it's kind of the stereotype along with black and white.


----------



## ChelseaOliver (Nov 5, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Yeeep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


O/T but it's super interesting to me that crouching and stalking is known as a BC thing! Peggy's a Staffy and she crouches and stalks me CONSTANTLY, all the time, at tons of distances, and I'd never seen a dog do it til her. She'll do it to other dogs too but not as much. Also, I would have never, ever pegged Molly as a BC!


----------



## MastiffGuy (Mar 23, 2015)

JonnyBandit and sassafras, why cant' you two talk more of the pro's and con's of in the issue than some stupid ruling bodies and who sets whatever standard?

Personally going to the ICCF show the 25th and 26th which will have a ton of cropped and docked Cane Corso's and in june going to the 68th annual MCOA show which will have zero docked or cropped, English Mastiffs.

Cropping Unless your using a dog like a Dogo for hog hunting or a CO in it's LGD, I just don't see cropping as suiting any reason purpose. 
Tail docking for breeds in which tail breaking is common there might be a legitimate reason to, past that cutting cause more spine issues do to pulling when they cut and not getting a clean cut than anything else, there are BB's that people have destroyed dogs with piss poor docking.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

CptJack said:


> Yeeep.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i have no clue where people see lab in her. i mean what?


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ChelseaOliver said:


> O/T but it's super interesting to me that crouching and stalking is known as a BC thing! Peggy's a Staffy and she crouches and stalks me CONSTANTLY, all the time, at tons of distances, and I'd never seen a dog do it til her. Also, I would have never, ever pegged Molly as a BC.


The crouch and 'stare' is actually just one method of herding - well, sometimes. Not all BCs do it, and obviously non-BCs do it but it's pretty heavily associated. You can look up 'the eye' and be pointed to tons and tons of BC sites or 'stylish' with border collie and herding. As above, it's not only a BC thing but it is VERY much part of the predatory sequence. Not overly surprising that lots of other dogs do it.

http://www.bordercolliemuseum.org/BCLooks/BC_Looks.html

This is a kind of fun website re: BC diversity.

(And just because, this is one of my favorite smooth BCs)


----------



## ChelseaOliver (Nov 5, 2014)

CptJack said:


> The crouch and 'stare' is actually just one method of herding - well, sometimes. Not all BCs do it, and obviously non-BCs do it but it's pretty heavily associated. You can look up 'the eye' and be pointed to tons and tons of BC sites or 'stylish' with border collie and herding. As above, it's not only a BC thing but it is VERY much part of the predatory sequence. Not overly surprising that lots of other dogs do it.
> 
> http://www.bordercolliemuseum.org/BCLooks/BC_Looks.html
> 
> ...


Hm you learn something new everyday! Do you think it's weird for non-herding dogs to do it? with Peggy it's nonstop, as soon as she's a bit tired of running she'll just crouch and stalk me (usually while I'm holding the toy but not always) over and over again, often staring me down from long distances. Dogs are weird. I don't think my pit mix has ever once done that.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ChelseaOliver said:


> Hm you learn something new everyday! Do you think it's weird for non-herding dogs to do it? with Peggy it's nonstop, as soon as she's a bit tired of running she'll just crouch and stalk me (usually while I'm holding the toy but not always) over and over again, often staring me down from long distances. Dogs are weird. I don't think my pit mix has ever once done that.


Nah, not really. It could still be predatory/play behavior, could just be keeping an eye on you, could just be something she figured out is entertaining. Like I said my little foof of a dog has a pretty good eye on her when she's really focused intensely. It crops up everywhere, though not with tons of consistency, and I've honestly seen very few puppies NOT do it at least a little.

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaLor7d7NEs

That cracks me up (because what is on topic?)


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

MastiffGuy said:


> JonnyBandit and sassafras, why cant' you two talk more of the pro's and con's of in the issue than some stupid ruling bodies and who sets whatever standard?


Well, bickering is kind of what we DO.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MastiffGuy said:


> JonnyBandit and sassafras, why cant' you two talk more of the pro's and con's of in the issue than some stupid ruling bodies and who sets whatever standard?


Sas and I make a hobby and sport out bickering with each other.... Been doing it for years.....

Its all good... 



MastiffGuy said:


> Cropping Unless your using a dog like a Dogo for hog hunting or a CO in it's LGD, I just don't see cropping as suiting any reason purpose.
> .


I would NEVER crop hog dog...I gave a significant reason on about page one....
There are a couple of others....


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

If I was to crop a dog's ear and dock a tail. I would do the breeds of a Cocker Spaniel for cropping and Great Danes for docking. It seems I see so many Cockers with horrible ear infections. Great Danes never seem to get out of the way before the storm door shuts on their tail. Pit Bulls should just have their tail registered as a lethal weapon.


----------



## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

MastiffGuy said:


> Cropping Unless your using a dog like a Dogo for hog hunting or a CO in it's LGD, I just don't see cropping as suiting any reason purpose.


A CO or any other LGD breed does not need to have its ears cropped (_or to be more accurate its ears cut off at typically around 2-3 days_) in order to successfully guard livestock.
Cutting the ears & tail off in a minority of LGD breeds (_the majority of LGD breeds have none at all or no significant history of ear/tail cutting_) has basically for centuries been done for tradition & cosmetics.
I have explained this in more detail in other topics on this forum (as someone mentioned it earlier in this thread), so instead of me repeating myself, if you want you can read what I wrote regarding this subject elsewhere, like for example here: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/344977-you-scared-any-dog-9.html#post3799418

In CO's and in CAO's a very large number of owners and breeders are (what I consider) so superficial that they don't want to buy a puppy unless it has been cropped (and also docked in the situation with CAO's).
I know of people (here in U.S. too) who have gone as far as buying from a breeder that doesn't crop/dock (because they wanted a certain bloodline) and they would then cut the ears (and the tail for CAO) off in 3-6 month old puppies.
Even if they had no intention of ever competing in conformation.
That's how much some people in these two breeds dislike the natural look. 

When we were looking to get a female CO, all the breeders in U.S. at the time were cropping (i.e. cutting the ears of) all their puppies when they were 2-3 days.
Regardless whether they were showing or not (_btw, the FCI, RKF & UKC standards all allow for uncropped dogs to be shown_).
We currently own one CO that's cropped and one that's uncropped.
After being around this and other LGD breeds for many, many years now I myself have not witnessed benefits of ear cropping. 
But I have noticed the benefits of leaving the ears natural.
Our next CO's will be imports just like our male (who I brought with me from Europe), mainly because there are so many things wrong with CO breeders in U.S./Canada.
And then we'll again be looking for a breeder over there that leaves ears intact. 
Such breeders are much easier to find in Europe, but I have to mention that most CO's still come from certain Eastern European countries where cropping/docking is still very much legal. 
And where this practice continues for the above mentioned reasons (tradition & cosmetics).


----------



## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Pit Bulls should just have their tail registered as a lethal weapon.


No kidding, I have bruises on my calves to prove it! That thing really, really hurts when it gets going  but I love her tail. I love her ears, too, I know it's pretty common to crop pit bulls' ears but I thought she was cuter with them. There are some dogs that are cropped and docked that I think are really handsome but then there are some who aren't, even in the same breed so for me it's just a visual thing.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MountainDogs said:


> A CO or any other LGD breed does not need to have its ears cropped (_or to be more accurate its ears cut off at typically around 2-3 days_) in order to successfully guard livestock.
> Cutting the ears & tail off in a minority of LGD breeds (_the majority of LGD breeds have none at all or no significant history of ear/tail cutting_) has basically for centuries been done for tradition & cosmetics.
> I have explained this in more detail in other topics on this forum (as someone mentioned it earlier in this thread), so instead of me repeating myself, if you want you can read what I wrote regarding this subject elsewhere, like for example here: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/344977-you-scared-any-dog-9.html#post3799418
> 
> ...


I dunno.... Looking at the ears of a natural CO....... Looks like something bad waiting to happen...










Those are some LONG ears.. If the dog has to actually get into a physical confrontation with a wolf.... It will not likely be one wolf.... Those ears could easily be a problem.... One wolf grabs for the head, gets the ear.... Pulls the dog's head to the side.... Second dog now has access to the dog's throat.... Dead dog.....

A CO with natural ears, has quite long ears compared to most other LGDs...


A few key points...

1) One.... I have not seen a LGD fight a wolf.... I have seen coyotes killed by LGDs... But I have not actually witnessed the act..

2) I have seen dogs, wild predators, etc take hold of, take down, etc animals... What I said was a possible problem is very logical...

3) And this is the big one...... When it comes to docking and cropping.... In MOST cases..... Folks did not just decide to cut parts off of dogs.... They did it to solve a problem.


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm a little late to the party, but good lord I hate the argument that natural Dobes look houndy. It always comes from people who are actually *involved* in dogs (rather than just pet owners) which baffles me because these are the same people who are so obsessed with _breed type_! and typeiness. I'm not picking on anyone specific on here, it's just an overall observation. If you're so freaking into the nuances of how every little detail "makes" the breed... how on earth can you turn around and say that _one_ feature being changed suddenly makes them look like an entirely different looking breed? Doesn't that _completely_ defeat the point of breed type?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Part of breed type is the look. The look on Dobes is drastically changed (IMO) when the dog is left undocked/uncropped.

I will say that natural ears bother me less than the natural tail. I still think they lack the classic look of the Doberman, but it's not so...jarring(?) I suppose


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Part of breed type is the look. The look on Dobes is drastically changed (IMO) when the dog is left undocked/uncropped.
> 
> I will say that natural ears bother me less than the natural tail. I still think they lack the classic look of the Doberman, but it's not so...jarring(?) I suppose


I get what you're saying that the look is drastically changed: I wouldn't argue that. But to say changing one aspect (or two if you're counting both ears and tail) makes them not look like a different breed implies to me that the rest of the physical traits of the breed don't matter. The muzzle and nose and lips don't matter, the lines of the neck, the chest, the overall build... leaving a Dobe natural doesn't change any of those things, so why do they suddenly look like B&T coonhounds or mixes? Are the ears and tail the only thing on a Dobe that make it a Dobe?

I feel like the GSD equivalent would be: take away all of the breed's rear angulation while leaving everything else the same. The dogs are still identifiable as GSDs, even if they lack that characteristic that you strongly prefer in the breed (just based on what you've said about your GSD preferences before.) It seems to me that it's like saying those GSDs lacking angulation look like Malinois, even though everything else about them is still clearly GSD. The "type" is still there in the rest of the body.

If you took away a Silken's body coat, yeah, it'd be kind of a funny looking Silken, but it wouldn't suddenly look like a Saluki because the rest of it still looks like a Silken.


----------



## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I dunno.... Looking at the ears of a natural CO....... Looks like something bad waiting to happen...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This picture is an example of a very poorly bred CO. This is probably one of the worst examples of this breed I've seen in a while.
Plus the hair on the ears makes the ears look even longer than they actually are. 
A CO does not have "quite long" ears when compared to most other LGD's, I have no idea where you are getting this information from. 
If you actually had experience with this breed and had actually met uncropped CO's in person, that you then could have compared to other LGD breeds in person, you wouldn't have made that statement. 
The ears of well bred CO's are of about the same length as the ears of other well bred individuals from all other LGD breeds.
And the FCI breed standard calls for ears that are of: "_moderate size, thick, triangular shape naturally pendant, high and wide set_"


Here are pictures of 3 unaltered different CO's, from 3 completely different lines that are good examples of the breed and have the correct ear set:



























(*In the above pic the one on the left is cropped, the one on the right uncropped*)


Now compare the above CO's to these 3 random, LGD breeds with natural ears:

Tibetan Mastiff



















Pyrenean Mastiff




















Tornjak



















As you can see, the ears in all 4 of these LGD breeds are quite similar. You just have to make sure (as with any breed) that you are getting a puppy from a good breeder that actually selects for working traits.
Like I said in that other thread, if ear cropping was vital for an LGD, then how come in most other livestock guardian breeds there has never been a tradition of cropping/docking all the dogs and yet those unaltered dogs have successfully been doing the exact same job uncropped/undocked for many centuries now?
If cutting ears and tails off was so vital, then how come not all shepherds are/were doing this?
There are and were thousands upon thousands of uncropped LGD's guarding livestock successfully all over the world for millennia.
Many people are of opinion that when ears are cut off too short, it leaves the inner ear too vulnerable to a more severe damage if an altercation occurs with a predator (such as a wolf) and also too vulnerable to harsh weather elements.

You should read my responses in that other thread, about how local superstitions led people to cut parts off of dogs, which then turned into a tradition and later into a "signature look" of that particular breed.
Hence why in CAO for example, both the ears and the tail are cut off couple of days or so after birth.
And yet almost all other LGD breeds are successfully doing the same exact job with a tail intact. 
Many shepherds in countries where the practice of cutting off ears/tail occurs have themselves talked about these superstitions. 
How for example they actually believe cutting off ears/tail would help dog remain more alert of predators. 
Throughout history we have seen people unnecessary remove and/or alter parts of their own bodies out of tradition based on local believes. 

According to people I've talked who have actually experienced their LGD's fighting off wolves, the wolves didn't go for the ears anyway.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

The argument that an animal could bite the guardian dog's ears and therefore they need cropped just doesn't add up for me. Ages ago, my terrier mutt got attacked by another dog and her ear got bitten and ripped. She kept right on scrapping back without even appearing to notice the wound. The ear bled but not dangerously so, and the dog couldn't get a grip on it because it tore right through. Somehow I don't see an ear wound impairing a huge incredibly tough dog like a caucasian ovcharka.

I had always understood that the CO had cropped ears to make it look more bear-like. Not for a practical purpose. But I am in no way an expert on the breed.


----------



## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

parus said:


> The argument that an animal could bite the guardian dog's ears and therefore they need cropped just doesn't add up for me. Ages ago, my terrier mutt got attacked by another dog and her ear got bitten and ripped. She kept right on scrapping back without even appearing to notice the wound. The ear bled but not dangerously so, and the dog couldn't get a grip on it because it tore right through. Somehow I don't see an ear wound impairing a huge incredibly tough dog like a caucasian ovcharka.
> 
> I had always understood that the CO had cropped ears to make it look more bear-like. Not for a practical purpose. But I am in no way an expert on the breed.


Yes basically if cutting ears off was such an advantage to an LGD, then we would have seen this done in all LGD breeds, not just in a handful.
Besides from what I understand an injury sustained to an unprotected inner ear is much more severe and will bleed more than an injury on the ear flap. 
Cropping of the ears in CO's started out as an ancient tradition on Caucasus and was kept by the Soviet military when they imported aboriginal LGD's from Caucasus to Moscow to start the breeding program.
And even though these dogs then went on to guard prison camps, borders, factories, military objects and not livestock anymore, the ear cropping remained.
Cause the Soviets liked that look, because cropped ears gives the breed a more intimidating appearance. The Soviet military actively selected for the most intimidating looking & acting CO's.
Which is also why they preferred dark, solid colored CO's over piebald, light gold, white etc colors in this breed.
Even to this day (according to the breeders I've spoken) piebald CO puppies are the hardest to sell in a litter.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I dunno.... Looking at the ears of a natural CO....... Looks like something bad waiting to happen...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have witnessed it , a coyote got into a pasture with two anatolian shepherds while we happened to be driving by and those two dogs dispatched that poor coyote in less than 5 minutes. 

That is another thing is farmers almost always have more than one LGD in the pasture, sometimes more, so one or more can stay with the flock and the others can address the threat.

Also, lincoln couches and stalks, and he definately doesn't have any BC in him lol.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

All dogs will crouch and stalk, but the way BCs do it is really distinct.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> All dogs will crouch and stalk, but the way BCs do it is really distinct.


I wasn't going to say that for Reasons, but it is why I posted that video. So, ^that. Also, like I said, almost all puppies do it. Not in a BC like way, but it's very typical puppy play behavior.

With a side of 'not all BCs do it, but most do it at least once in a blue moon and in response to particular stimulus'. to cover my butt here. And that not every time a BC crouches and stalks is THE stalk/eye thing. Sometimes, they too, are just playing (and sometimes when they're playing some BC are doing it for real and sometimes they're not). 

There really isn't much mistaking a BC's for real stalking for another breeds or other stalking, I don't think. Kylie stalks and stares, but no one is going to mistake the way she moves for a BC doing the same thing for serious and real.

Kind of like pointing, I guess, in a way. Yeah, most dogs will point a little but a pointer for serious and real pointing is pretty distinctive.


----------



## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

Here's blog entry that I think many on this thread will find interesting: http://predator-friendly-ranching.blogspot.com/2015/02/macedonia-part-3-shepherds-dogs.html?m=1
Earlier this year a Sarplaninac breeder from Canada went to Macedonia to get a puppy and visit the shepherds there & their LGD's.
In many areas in the Balkans throughout the centuries there have occasionally been shepherds that would crop/cut off only one ear of their LGD.
A practice that is still to this day followed by some shepherds.
This breeder from Canada then asked the shepherds there why they were doing this. They told her "that it was thought the dogs would hear better".
She then further writes that (and I quote):



> Ear cropping was not done to prevent injuries to the ears, in fact it was explained to me, that
> ear cropping could actually result in greater injuries to the head and scalp, during a fight.
> None, of the dogs we saw with ears, had any major injuries to them.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> All dogs will crouch and stalk, but the way BCs do it is really distinct.


Sort of. Kelpies can be really hard eyed as well. I've seen kelpies run USBCHA trials too.


----------



## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

I hope I can find pictures of my red/rust Doberman. Docked and not cropped, and unmistakingly Doberman.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Sort of. Kelpies can be really hard eyed as well. I've seen kelpies run USBCHA trials too.


Kelpies can be hard-eyed but they don't move the same as MOST BC. I mean leaving out the muddled up gene pool of the working BC and the diversity even amongst working styles in BC based on what they're bred to herd and what people need them to be, the (admittedly few) Kelpies I've seen in person move more like ACD than BC. 

I'm not saying BC have the corner market on much of anything, every trait found in one dog will be found in others, particularly amongst the same group and individuality matters, and then you get into the fact that most traits are based on modified/emphasized instinct already present in dogs as a whole, and absolutely different lines emphasize different things and genetics within a line or breed will give you quite a bit of variation. 

But. Breeds are breeds for reasons, the combinations of emphasized traits, traits (both physical and not) selectively bred for within the breed and what is present to start with in the breed pool are going to vary from breed to breed. You can make some generalized statements while recognizing that exceptions exist. They're exceptions.

I've seen beagles cleaning up at obedience, sighthounds with no interest in lure coursing or chasing anything, and a husky who was both off leash reliable and incredibly lazy from 6 months old. That doesn't make them typical. Doesn't make them not a beagle/husky/or greyhound, but nor does it mean saying 'greyhounds and free roaming house rabbits are probably not a good idea' is wrong, and I'm probably not going to go and get a husky to go off leash hiking with any time soon, either.

That doesn't mean I think a husky (or bc or gsd or lab or greyhound or beagle) are inferior or superior or impossibly hard to own/takes an 'elite' owner, or whatever, just that if you say 'greyhound' it is probably going to be something within the spectrum of 'typical' greyhound.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Did you check out the video? I don't see much difference between a kelpie stalk and bc stalk? 





























They're the only two breeds you'll see at USBCHA trials (developed for BC working style) for a reason. Not saying they're as good of sheepdogs or whatnot as BCs (I have no idea) just that they're the only other breed I know that works with that much eye. Obviously BCs are favored at USBCHA trials but I've seen a handful of kelpies at every one I've attended (no other herding breeds though!)

Never seen a kelpie that was anything like an ACD.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Did you check out the video? I don't see much difference between a kelpie stalk and bc stalk?
> 
> 
> They're the only two breeds you'll see at USBCHA trials (developed for BC working style) for a reason. Not saying they're as good of sheepdogs or whatnot as BCs (I have no idea) just that they're the only other breed I know that works with that much eye. Obviously BCs are favored at USBCHA trials but I've seen a handful of kelpies at every one I've attended (no other herding breeds though!)
> ...


What I know about sheepdogs doing sheep dog things effectively would fit in on one page, probably double spaced. I have no idea which is a better sheep dog. Probably complicated and down to sheep and individual dog and terrain and - who knows what else.

I wasn't even thinking actively working sheep when I said that (and went off on a huge tangent). I do know they have a similar or the same style of working/herding and are 'stylish/hard-eyed/whatever'. I just meant that when I've seen kelpies run in person they seem to move with more force and power and to be slightly less... loose limbed, for want of a better term. 

The STRUCTURE in most I've seen is pretty different too, though (thicker/heavier/blockier than all the BC I know), and of course that would influence how they move or at least my perception of their movement.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Mountain Dog- I have read the same articles and such. It makes sense. Where these dogs come from tradition is a BIG thing. It is hard for the people of these worlds to let customs go. Their whole world is built around following these traditions. It is hard for someone who was not brought up to follow traditions that have been passed on for centuries to understand how and why people just follow what the grandparents did. My own LGDs have natural ears. I am thankful for that because I believe with the winters it is better for the ears. I think frostbite would be a problem with the cropped ears of an LGD. My dog's own scars are on the muzzle and front legs of the dogs. I also believe that having 3 dogs works the best for me. 

On the crouching thing-My dog Cheyene is the croucher and pouncer of the group. It is funny to watch her because she will 'hide' behind a weed or patch of tall grass to pounce on the dog she was stalking. Not as intense as what a herder was born to do but you got to give her credit for thinking no one can see her behind a patch of grass. She will literally run/stalk to go behind a hill or a weed and wait for that right moment to pounce on a fellow dog friend. You got to remember that certain breeds were designed and bred to do a task. Sometimes those traits are not what a breeder is going for but their goal is looking pretty or just because the person has papers on the dog and that alone is the reason they bred the dog.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I thought we were just talking about the stalk and crouch behavior of BCs vs kelpies? All I was saying was I would not call the BC stare wholly unique as kelpies tend to do it too and have a similar working style. There may be other herding breeds that do that I don't know about too. 

I went back through my USBCHA pictures but I apparently took none of the kelpies. I remember thinking they seemed a bit more pushy with the stock but that's from me being a total outsider and having no idea what to look for. Size wise they were about the same. Similar eye and movement for sure. Some dogs (of both breeds) were more or less stylish than others.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I believe the Kelpie is to have BC in its background. That would explain the same working ethics.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I didn't say it was unique, I said it was distinctive. And it is different than just some dog crouching and stalking. To bring it back to the original topic, an Aussie or MAS or English Shepherd or etc is unlikely to crouch and stalk like a BC, so I think it's unlikely that docking the tail of some breeds is necessary to distinguish them from BCs (and yes I realize ES are not docked).


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I would say my MAS has no stalking ability. It is all about running full tilt to the herding group. For him his style is pushing or pacing but no stalking. He does his herding by mouth. Dock the tongue? Just kidding, I would not do that.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> I didn't say it was unique, I said it was distinctive. And it is different than just some dog crouching and stalking. To bring it back to the original topic, an Aussie or MAS or English Shepherd or etc is unlikely to crouch and stalk like a BC, so I think it's unlikely that docking the tail of some breeds is necessary to distinguish them from BCs (and yes I realize ES are not docked).


Yes I agree there. 

At any rate a lot of the herders look a lot like each other (a lot of terriers look a lot like each other too and so do the mastiffs, etc). Dogs getting mistaken for another similar breed isn't that big of a deal.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

On cropping- I know people who do not want to crop their pitbull or Dobies ears because they do not want the dog to look too scary. I see people being okay with leaving a dog's ear natural because they can.


----------



## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

A little on that reasoning, I'm doing it to make my dog appear more attentive/aggressive. I would prefer people to have dialog with me rather than simply walking up to my dog and start petting. Also I just think a Dogo with PROPER cropped ears looks pretty good.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Sorry, I was actually still talking about distinctiveness. Which it to say, yes, kelpies stare and crouch and stalk but the way they do it looks different (to me) because of the way they move. While in that crouch. 

So, yeah, like Sass "There are differences beyond a tail (coat, ears) or lack of." was where I was going with that. Or even more on the topic, and all the way back to dobes, I really can't think of a single thing dobes and BT coonhounds have in common re: drives, behavior, and movement. Even if you gave the dobe the floppiest ears in the world and the hound the tightest skin.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> So, yeah, like Sass "There are differences beyond a tail (coat, ears) or lack of." was where I was going with that. Or even more on the topic, and all the way back to dobes, I really can't think of a single thing dobes and BT coonhounds have in common re: drives, behavior, and movement. Even if you gave the dobe the floppiest ears in the world and the hound the tightest skin.


I think it's interesting we haven't gotten another reply of 'I think it looks like a hound' after you posted the pictures. Then again, how can anyone say that and mean it, when they know what those two breeds look like--and your pictures illustrated it clearly. A Dobermann is not a hound, or hound-like. Plenty of things make it distinguishable as a Dobermann.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MountainDogs said:


> This picture is an example of a very poorly bred CO. This is probably one of the worst examples of this breed I've seen in a while.
> Plus the hair on the ears makes the ears look even longer than they actually are.
> A CO does not have "quite long" ears when compared to most other LGD's, I have no idea where you are getting this information from.
> If you actually had experience with this breed and had actually met uncropped CO's in person, that you then could have compared to other LGD breeds in person, you wouldn't have made that statement.
> ...


LOL........ First off I stated right off that I had never seen a CO fight a wolf, or more likely wolves.... I have seen video. But it is not a good example as multiple wolves and multiple COs...

I venture to say that You have not seen a CO fight a wolf either...

So we are on even ground.

You can attempt to justify and say I posted a poor example of a CO for my example.

But the FACT is... Their ears and ear set on your first example of a CO and mine are NOT very different. Certainly not enough to make a difference in a fight....


And this is really the most hilarious part of your post...

For pages and pages folks not in favor of cropping have been saying to heck with the standard...

Now you bring the standard back in as an excuse NOT to crop...

I can assure you... Shepherds in the Caucasian Mountains never read the standard....
They bred the dogs that would protect their stock and made sure they were equipped to do so.


Bringing in the other LGD breeds is a moot point.
Different breeds, bred to guard in different environments, different styles of work....

Its like comparing BCs, ACDs, Corgis, Aussies.... It is not one size fits all and what is good for one is good for all.... It does not work that way.... But you are attempting to make such....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Avie said:


> I think it's interesting we haven't gotten another reply of 'I think it looks like a hound' after you posted the pictures. Then again, how can anyone say that and mean it, when they know what those two breeds look like--and your pictures illustrated it clearly. A Dobermann is not a hound, or hound-like. Plenty of things make it distinguishable as a Dobermann.


I said so after those pictures were posted...

Obviously I can tell which dog is which....
And up close.... but at 50 yards? A natural dobe is going to look houndy........



Beta Man said:


> A little on that reasoning, I'm doing it to make my dog appear more attentive/aggressive. I would prefer people to have dialog with me rather than simply walking up to my dog and start petting. Also I just think a Dogo with PROPER cropped ears looks pretty good.


Having a dog that looks more intimidating is a legitimate reason in some cases....


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I said so after those pictures were posted...
> 
> Obviously I can tell which dog is which....
> And up close.... but at 50 yards? A natural dobe is going to look houndy........


My bad. 

To be honest, I have difficulty telling many breeds apart at 50 yards. Even breeds that, had they been standing closer to me, would easily have been identifiable as that breed. 

As an aside, did you not get what Mountaindogs was getting at? She talked about how it came to be that some LGDs like Caucasian ovcharkas were traditionally cropped and how that practice survived until this day and age. And how cropping them is in essence nonsensical and very unnecessary.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Man, at 50 yards I can't tell a German Shepherd from a doe (deer). 

Well, without my glasses and/or in low light. Don't think either one would be improved by altering so as not to look like the other, really. Unless you count putting the dog in blaze orange during hunting season.

(ETA: This is not hyperbole. I once seriously thought a random doe in an unlikely location was a stray shepherd mix. My vision is admittedly not great.)


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> For pages and pages folks not in favor of cropping have been saying to heck with the standard...
> 
> Now you bring the standard back in as an excuse NOT to crop...


I don't understand this argument. Of course different people have different reasons not to support cropping! Same thing goes for those who do: some admitted it's because they prefer the look, some because they think it prevents injuries, some because it's tradition etc. All of those reasons to crop and more have been brought up, so I don't understand why there couldn't be more than one reason to be against cropping. I'm against cropping for ethical reasons and I don't think MountainDogs's reasons oppose or contradict mine at all, personally. I found their point of view as someone who knows their breed and its history very interesting.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm not anti-dock at all and only somewhat anti-crop. 

I still think anti-dock and anti-crop has a better argument.


----------



## Robbi (Nov 19, 2013)

Actually, just earlier today I had a situation with someone disagreeing with my tail docking principles.

I recently adopted a gorgeous blue merle Australian Shepherd. He's a beautiful 11 month old boy who has his tail. I look at his tail and I am totally baffled as to why someone would want to cut it off...It's this gorgeous, full feather duster thing. It's so beautiful....

I just don't understand the point. It's an unnecessary procedure with the same risks as any other procedure that requires anesthetic....Why would you even do it if all it's doing is putting your dog through pain and an unnecessary cosmetic surgery? When honestly, I think they look best WITH their tails...I specifically was looking for one with his tail because when they're docked I think it's looks really weird....like the dog is wearing a full diaper....

Anyway, earlier today a woman met my little boy and said "Oh is this an Australian Shepherd?" I said yes and she says (in a really snotty way) "Why does he still have his tail?" Lady, I don't tell you how to deal with your dogs, don't tell me how to deal with mine. 


My fiance also has a toy fox terrier who has his tail and we LOVE his cute little tail. It bobs so adorable when he's prancing around.


Tails for life!!! No dock household!!!


----------



## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> LOL........ First off I stated right off that I had never seen a CO fight a wolf, or more likely wolves.... I have seen video. But it is not a good example as multiple wolves and multiple COs...
> 
> I venture to say that You have not seen a CO fight a wolf either...
> 
> ...



You really should re-read your own posts before you bother with posting new ones. 
In post #312 you address me and say (I quote) "A CO with natural ears, has quite long ears compared to most other LGDs".
So you and only you are the one who brought other LGD breeds into this conversation with me by making a claim about the ears of this breed (a breed you obviously know close to nothing about) that's not based on any facts. 
I then show you examples so you can see for yourself that well bred CO's and well bred individuals from other LGD breeds have ears that are of about the same length and shape.
The natural ears of a well bred CO are just as functional as the natural ears of any other well bred LGD's from a different breed.
Only someone who has never owned a CO and knows very little about them can claim otherwise. 


I never claimed that the ears on the CO you posted as an example of this breed is very different from the examples I posted, be it CO's or other LGD breeds.
So once again you are putting words I didn't say in my mouth.
What I said was that the CO from your picture is an example of a very poorly bred CO. 
And not just because of its ears (_hint: if you don't understand why the dog in the picture you posted is a very poor example of this breed, then you really shouldn't be arguing CO's with me_).
Then I also wrote "plus the hair on the ears makes the ears look even longer than they actually are."
The actual length of this CO's ears isn't what bothers me (_not to mention again that it's the hair on his ears that make them look longer_), it's the way they are set, it's the shape of his skull, his muzzle and even to a degree his eyes. All of that is bad and doesn't confirms well to the breed standard (especially the shape of the skull).

Speaking of the breed standard, what do I care if someone in this topic said "to heck with the standard"?
I'm not them, I didn't say it. So why on earth would you bring that up with me? It is beyond bizarre that you would even tell me this. 
I very much care about the breed standard of the CO and that's because in CO's the breed standard promotes the working traits.

When you say that you "_I had never seen a CO fight a wolf, or more likely wolves.... I have seen video_", I can't help but wonder if you are referring to that one well known youtube video.
There are no CO's what so ever in that video, it's a video of a different LGD breed, but the video was mislabeled by several individuals on the youtube.
But people who don't know much about CO's and LGD's in general, often think there actually is a CO in that video.
Video's aside, I never claimed that I've ever seen an altercation between a CO or any other LGD breed vs a wolf/wolves in person. And frankly I hope I never will.
Hence why I wrote in my previous post: "according to people I've talked who *have actually experienced* their LGD's fighting off wolves"
The devil is in the detail. If you are going to argue with someone on a forum, then at the very least take the time to read what they actually wrote.


Don't talk to me about the shepherds on Caucasus, when it's clearly obvious that you know close to nothing about CO's, their history or the history, practices and customs of people from that part of the world.
It is also very obvious that you know very little about the LGD breeds to begin with.
If you did, you would have known that the ear shape and size is very similar in all LGD breeds. And you would have known why that's the case and why this is important.
This can't be compared to how things are in herding breeds what so ever.
I really dislike discussing something with someone who just wants to argue and doesn't knows what they're talking about. 
So I think it's best if you and I end this discussion.



@luv mi pets
Exactly, well said.
The cropped ears of a CO or CAO seem to do fine even in Siberia (there are a lot of kennels of these two breeds in Siberia), Alaska etc, but for example if one lives in an area where it rains a lot you learn to really appreciate the natural ears.
And there are of course many other benefits to keeping the ears natural in a working LGD.


@Whistlejacket
That is so true. 
My reasons are very similar to yours, I'm not a fan of it because of both ethical reasons and also because in my breed (and other LGD breeds) it isn't necessary to cut their ears off so they can successfully guard livestock from predators. 
So when people bring CO's or other LGD's up as an excuse for why cutting ears and tails is supposedly necessary, I say something about it.
If people want their dogs cropped & docked, then that's on them. I prefer mine natural.
And I also appreciate people in this topic who just simply stated that they prefer the look of a cropped/docked dog in their breed and that this is the only reason why they support cropping/docking. 
Regardless of how I may feel about this procedure, at least these people are being honest. 
I much prefer such attitude over someone who will use myths or just blatantly make up things in order to argue in favor of cropping/docking.


----------



## MastiffGuy (Mar 23, 2015)

MountainDogs exactly how many of your dog are working dogs?

I'm going by what actual CO owners and Dogo owners tell me from working dogs.

For ear injury and infections it is far better to crop.
Also I dont know your breed of choice but I'm betting it is a BMD. 

As I already stated I go by what people who do this tell me on there working dogs.

I'm a guardian breed person not the other, but since several are molosser breeds I chat with several.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Robbi said:


> Actually, just earlier today I had a situation with someone disagreeing with my tail docking principles.
> 
> I recently adopted a gorgeous blue merle Australian Shepherd. He's a beautiful 11 month old boy who has his tail. I look at his tail and I am totally baffled as to why someone would want to cut it off...It's this gorgeous, full feather duster thing. It's so beautiful....
> 
> ...


Aussies can be born bob tailed. Generally.. it is a long bob. Like.. half of a tail (but can also be shorter). Full tailed Aussies are gorgeous. Half tailed Aussies look way weirder than docked Aussies to me. So.. saying Aussies should be full tailed is silly when they can be BORN with less than a full tail. 

Also.. it is done when they are only a couple days old. It is not the same risk as an amputation of an adult dog's tail.

I'm also curious about the difference between banding and surgically docking. I don't know much about it. Keechak stated the pups did not make a fuss when banded but screamed when having dews removed. If it does not actually hurt the dog, does it make a difference?


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

MastiffGuy said:


> For ear injury and infections it is far better to crop.
> Also I dont know your breed of choice but I'm betting it is a BMD.


Nope, she owns Caucasian ovcharkas. Also, I don't believe there's anyone on this forum who knows more about LGDs than she does.


----------



## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

MastiffGuy said:


> MountainDogs exactly how many of your dog are working dogs?
> 
> I'm going by what actual CO owners and Dogo owners tell me from working dogs.
> 
> ...



If you took the time to read my previous reply to you, you would have seen that I had already told you I own two Caucasian Ovcharka's.
See, my opinion is formed mainly through actual first hand experiences.
I've been around working LGD's since I was only a kid; my grandparents (and their grandparents before them) and my other relatives have used Sarplaninac dogs, Kuvaszok and Komondorok to guard their livestock in the rural areas of the Balkans.
So basically you don't even take the time to read the response of the person you decided to argue with, and then you tout your opinion (_based on something someone who clearly knows very little about the CO's told you_), as a fact

I'm curious, have you ever even met CO's in real life?


@Avie, thanks!


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Aussies can be born bob tailed. Generally.. it is a long bob. Like.. half of a tail (but can also be shorter). Full tailed Aussies are gorgeous. Half tailed Aussies look way weirder than docked Aussies to me. So.. saying Aussies should be full tailed is silly when they can be BORN with less than a full tail.
> 
> Also.. it is done when they are only a couple days old. It is not the same risk as an amputation of an adult dog's tail.
> 
> I'm also curious about the difference between banding and surgically docking. I don't know much about it. Keechak stated the pups did not make a fuss when banded but screamed when having dews removed. If it does not actually hurt the dog, does it make a difference?


Yeah, I agree, how does one ban docking in breeds like aussies that are sometimes born with half a tail. If you say "only tailed aussies can be shown" then breeders have to weed out the ones who have the bob or half tailed gene, further shrinking the gene pool and hurting the breed more in the long run.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

It's not 'only tailed aussies', it's only natural aussies, which includes those who have natural bobs.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Avie said:


> It's not 'only tailed aussies', it's only natural aussies, which includes those who have natural bobs.


but how does one define "natural"? does it mean a certain length? can't have a kink in it etc? IMO there is just too much margin for error, because likely in countries where docking was once allowed, you would get breeders trying to breed for a bob, which is dangerous in its own right. kind of like the "no prick ears" which I dont agree with, either. I think that if anything needs to be removed from the standard, its the prick ears, because it cuts out a lot of otherwise good dogs.


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Aussies can be born bob tailed. Generally.. it is a long bob. Like.. half of a tail (but can also be shorter).


To illustrate this, here's my half Aussie who has half of a tail. His tail is different than my (docked) Brittany's, and I can't imagine why they would have docked a mix, especially at such an odd length, so I assume he was born naturally bobbed.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Paviche said:


> To illustrate this, here's my half Aussie who has half of a tail. His tail is different than my (docked) Brittany's, and I can't imagine why they would have docked a mix, especially at such an odd length, so I assume he was born naturally bobbed.


That doesn't look weird at all. I mean.. different but still very cute. I think this looks quite awkward (the only one I could find in google images). It must be the thickness and fluff. It doesn't bother me in short haired breeds.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> but how does one define "natural"? does it mean a certain length? can't have a kink in it etc? IMO there is just too much margin for error, because likely in countries where docking was once allowed, you would get breeders trying to breed for a bob, which is dangerous in its own right.


There are countries already doing this without the sky falling in.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yeah, I agree, how does one ban docking in breeds like aussies that are sometimes born with half a tail. If you say "only tailed aussies can be shown" then breeders have to weed out the ones who have the bob or half tailed gene, further shrinking the gene pool and hurting the breed more in the long run.


I know someone in Sweden that shows an Aussie that is a natural bob tail. It has roughly a half tail. I am not used to that look here but it is not anything they think twice about over there. 

It's not like they ban dogs with short tails, they ban DOCKING. So if you have a dog with a short natural bob, it would be fine to show it.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> but how does one define "natural"? does it mean a certain length? can't have a kink in it etc? IMO there is just too much margin for error, because likely in countries where docking was once allowed, you would get breeders trying to breed for a bob, which is dangerous in its own right. kind of like the "no prick ears" which I dont agree with, either. I think that if anything needs to be removed from the standard, its the prick ears, because it cuts out a lot of otherwise good dogs.



Natural meaning the tail a dog was born with?

From what I can see they show dogs with full to half to no tail and in between. It's not like they still seem to prefer a short tail. They just know the breed can have varying tail lengths.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> There are countries already doing this without the sky falling in.


I think its a bad idea, because there will still be a market for the "docked look" and breeders will start breeding for that look naturally ... which is why I think things should just stay how they are, if people want to show their natural dogs so much, than commission the AKC to add a clause saying you can show your natural dog as well, there might be some bias against natural dogs, but I believe that will go away in time.

But banning outright? No, I dont agree with that.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MountainDogs said:


> You really should re-read your own posts before you bother with posting new ones.
> In post #312 you address me and say (I quote) "A CO with natural ears, has quite long ears compared to most other LGDs".
> So you and only you are the one who brought other LGD breeds into this conversation with me by making a claim about the ears of this breed (a breed you obviously know close to nothing about) that's not based on any facts.
> I then show you examples so you can see for yourself that well bred CO's and well bred individuals from other LGD breeds have ears that are of about the same length and shape.
> ...


I know exactly what I said in each post to you....

I also have read everything you have said, this post and others, links, etc

And understand..... I could care less if anyone crops or docks their CO or any other dog......

I have owned one docked dog and zero cropped dogs. And have stated why I would never crop a pit bull for hog hunting. 




Still you are trying to use twist reality to fit your position...

NOTHING you have ever posted provides any evidence of why the original dogs were cropped tight like that..

It likely was done many years before it was ever any written record..... And by the time it was written down the original reason had long since been lost...

Regardless of anything you have posted.... They just did not one day to decide hey the dogs would look cool if we chopped their ears off. ( there are some breeds that cropping and docking purely for appearance reasons. But not in a breed that until recent years had no presence in the pet or show world) When the practice started, there was a much greater risk to the dog than now. Infection, blood loss from a botched up job, etc etc etc. 

There was a reason that made the risk worth the reward.... End of story..

And the hearing thing is plausible..... I have little doubt that drop ears can affect hearing. But dogs hear so well, I am not sure it matters much. 


The reasons I state, and it is just a theory, but quite reasonable.... 
I have never seen a wolf take on a dog.....

I have seen quite a few animals after they have been killed by coyotes. Ear damage is common...

What I have seen a TON of.... Is Catch dogs, usually pits, catch more hogs than I can remember... Been involved in since I was big enough to sort of keep up... At five years old I would be put up on a branch in a tree when the hogs were bayed. Been doing it all my life... For fun, for meat, and as a contract hog removal agent.... 

Some guys use one catch dog, some like two, and some guys send one and hold another in backup in case dog one gets in trouble.

A large percentage of the time... I do not know the exact percentage, but the VAST majority of the time, The hog is caught by the ear... And feral hog ears are not floppy like barn yard hogs... This is not something we taught the dogs to do... They just naturally targeted the head area.... And the ear is a big easy target....

It is so common and so well known that the catch dogs are going for the ear, there are people out there, that will trap the hogs, cut off the ears and turn them loose. This is a good way for a hog dog to get dead quick. 

This happens a lot... And may sound crazy. But it is not.... Landowner A owns a thousand acres runs cows, and the hogs are giving him a fit... So he hires a contract trapper to get them out. Landowner B owns 200 acres that butts up to landowner A's property.... Landowner B uses the property as his weekend hunting place. He likes the hogs because he and his buddies hunt them and can target them year round.... Landowner A is saying get rid of everyone you can to the trapper.... Trapper comes in with dogs and starts hitting the hogs hard.... Landowner B is ticked off... The hogs in the area are going to go back and forth on both properties.... So he sets some life traps, catches as many hogs as he can... And whacks their ears off..... This happens and and dogs die over it...

I have pulled out of contract jobs because we started running into earless hogs....




BTW.... I am not talking about the film from the 1930's where the wolves break into the sheep pen and the dogs fight them.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> But banning outright? No, I dont agree with that.


I don't, either. But as Laurelin said, the dogs are just shown as they are in countries where it is. It's not a big deal.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I'm also curious about the difference between banding and surgically docking. I don't know much about it. Keechak stated the pups did not make a fuss when banded but screamed when having dews removed. If it does not actually hurt the dog, does it make a difference?


When I was little, I put a rubber band around my finger so tight that my finger turned blue and my mom had to cut it off. IT HURT. I mean BAD. And throbbed for days. I suppose if the blood supply was cut off long enough it might go numb, maybe? But it certainly hurts, bad, for a while. 

I'm not sure we can go by the puppies' reactions as to whether something is painful or not. Survival instincts would tell them not to react to pain. Brain scans would have to be done to be sure.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> I don't, either. But as Laurelin said, the dogs are just shown as they are in countries where it is. It's not a big deal.


Yeah I don't think it's a problem at all. 

I do see some breeders that seem to like to import docked dogs but that might be an issue of lack of quality dogs over there. From what I understand from talking to my Swedish friend Aussies are a fairly rare breed there.

Note: I am not saying the US should follow suit. I'm just pointing out that banning docking doesn't seem to be affecting aussies or other natural bob tailed breeds at all in the countries where docking is banned.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> When I was little, I put a rubber band around my finger so tight that my finger turned blue and my mom had to cut it off. IT HURT. I mean BAD. And throbbed for days. I suppose if the blood supply was cut off long enough it might go numb, maybe? But it certainly hurts, bad, for a while.
> 
> I'm not sure we can go by the puppies' reactions as to whether something is painful or not. Survival instincts would tell them not to react to pain. Brain scans would have to be done to be sure.


You puppies react to pain. 

The bands used for these things are so tight that they go almost instantly numb. It isn't a matter of blood flow continually going in and not getting out - it's cut off entirely, and very quickly 'dies' from lack of blood either way. What you did? You partially cut circulation off (hence the swelling) and then let it be restored (hence the insane pain that lasted - anything done tightly like a clamp (don't ask for references to this here because it's not family friendly) hurts on REMOVAL. 

I mean I don't love docking, but this analogy is broken/doesn't apply for the above reasons.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> But banning outright? No, I dont agree with that.


Sas said on page one that she did not believe it should be banned.....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> When I was little, I put a rubber band around my finger so tight that my finger turned blue and my mom had to cut it off. IT HURT. I mean BAD. And throbbed for days. I suppose if the blood supply was cut off long enough it might go numb, maybe? But it certainly hurts, bad, for a while.
> 
> I'm not sure we can go by the puppies' reactions as to whether something is painful or not. Survival instincts would tell them not to react to pain. Brain scans would have to be done to be sure.


Not a good analogy.... a finger of a child and a few days old puppy..... 


I prefer snipping them off myself....


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

All sorts of aussie tail lengths:

http://www.difloyds.com/Difloydstraffen2/Kenneltraff2014.htm

Show pics at the bottom show varying tail lengths in the ring:

http://www.difloyds.com/difloydstraffen/kenneltraff2009.htm


----------



## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

I like those collies with long tails


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> That doesn't look weird at all. I mean.. different but still very cute. I think this looks quite awkward (the only one I could find in google images). It must be the thickness and fluff. It doesn't bother me in short haired breeds.


Yeah, I think his is adorable, and the fluffy ones are funny looking. Mostly I posted as an example of a (long) NBT. Now that I think about it he's probably closer to 2/3 than 1/2, but it's still definitely not full.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Then again, how can anyone say that and mean it, when they know what those two breeds look like--and your pictures illustrated it clearly.


I said it and meant it. I think they look like bad hounds/hound mixes. But this has gone on for 19 pages, and I have been working dogs/been at dog shows for the last three weeks.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> When I was little, I put a rubber band around my finger so tight that my finger turned blue and my mom had to cut it off. IT HURT. I mean BAD. And throbbed for days. I suppose if the blood supply was cut off long enough it might go numb, maybe? But it certainly hurts, bad, for a while.
> 
> I'm not sure we can go by the puppies' reactions as to whether something is painful or not. Survival instincts would tell them not to react to pain. Brain scans would have to be done to be sure.


have you ever banded a tail? or snipped one off? or cared for a dog with cropped ears? I have done the first two and known cropped puppies. The ears are HEALED by the time they reach their new home, all the wrapping and posting you see is to SHAPE the ears so they grow right. It is no different then taping a GSD's ears so they stand prick, or gluing an aussies ears so they dont go prick.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Sooo I went and (poorly) photoshopped natural doberman ears on a black and tan coonhound. Now I'm even less convinced that natural dobes look like hounds, lol.


----------



## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

LOL! Hey that's a pretty good photoshop job if you ask me. Looks like a Dobe. 100%.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> have you ever banded a tail? or snipped one off? or cared for a dog with cropped ears? I have done the first two and known cropped puppies. The ears are HEALED by the time they reach their new home, all the wrapping and posting you see is to SHAPE the ears so they grow right. It is no different then taping a GSD's ears so they stand prick, or gluing an aussies ears so they dont go prick.


 WHY would I do such things to puppies? I like puppies. I would not cut parts off of them. And what does whether it's healed by the time they go to new homes have anything to do with whether it's painful or not?


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

jade5280 said:


> LOL! Hey that's a pretty good photoshop job if you ask me. Looks like a Dobe. 100%.


Haha thanks! I've got nothing better to do so I'm currently working on a cropped ear version as well, just for kicks


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea, cropping ears is a LOT different than taping or gluing.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What if we're also not a huge fan of ear taping and gluing? 

I do agree that they are all very different.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm not keen on taping/gluing, but it's disingenuous to act like it's equivalent to actually cutting body parts off.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Whistlejacket said:


> Sooo I went and (poorly) photoshopped natural doberman ears on a black and tan coonhound. Now I'm even less convinced that natural dobes look like hounds, lol.


Funny...because it only reinforced what I see :-/


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Whistlejacket said:


> Sooo I went and (poorly) photoshopped natural doberman ears on a black and tan coonhound. Now I'm even less convinced that natural dobes look like hounds, lol.


Actually those are pretty good hound ears.... 

The stop and crown of the forehead is different on a Dobe than a Hound...... But not everyone notices such things....


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Whistlejacket said:


> Sooo I went and (poorly) photoshopped natural doberman ears on a black and tan coonhound. Now I'm even less convinced that natural dobes look like hounds, lol.


This cracks me up because, yeah. I honestly don't see how anyone who knows dogs well enough to see past ear position and color can even VAGUELY mistake the two, already. They're just... I'd be more likely to mistake a rott for a B&T coonhound. Dobes are different in every regard, from WHERE their ears are on their head, to the size of their head, to the length of their neck, to their angulation, to the amount of bone they have, to the fit of their skin, to their jowls and of course the SIZE of their ears and shape of their head. And their body proportions. Heck, even their COATS are radically different past color (hounds have a lot more of it).

I mean I guess I can sort of get a 'that's just not what they're supposed to look like' if you aren't used to seeing dobes with natural ears and aren't exposed to a lot of coonhounds, but for me? It's like not being able to tell the difference between a corgi and a jrt (which is to say not). It's just... mind boggling. Different perceptions, I guess.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> This cracks me up because, yeah. I honestly don't see how anyone who knows dogs well enough to see past ear position and color can even VAGUELY mistake the two, already. They're just... I'd be more likely to mistake a rott for a B&T coonhound. Dobes are different in every regard, from WHERE their ears are on their head, to the size of their head, to the length of their neck, to their angulation, to the amount of bone they have, to the fit of their skin, to their jowls and of course the SIZE of their ears and shape of their head. And their body proportions.
> 
> I mean I guess I can sort of get a 'that's just not what they're supposed to look like' if you aren't used to seeing dobes with natural ears and aren't exposed to a lot of coonhounds, but for me? It's just... mind boggling.


Well obviously I weighed in on this before..... the head shape, eyeset, etc are different on a hound and a Dobe....

A Dobe is typically much slimmer in build and more light framed than a BnT....

But what about a young dog.... What about a BnT crossed up with a Redbone.... What about a BnT with a sighthound crossed in... (they are trying that... Not sure of the logic.) 

One can say that a dog looks houndy and still know what it is.... I think that is the point Xeph and I know I am making......

And a lay person.....Someone that does not know Dogs.... Sees a floppy eared dog and could easily assume it is a hound.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> I mean I guess I can sort of get a 'that's just not what they're supposed to look like' if you aren't used to seeing dobes with natural ears and aren't exposed to a lot of coonhounds, but for me? It's like not being able to tell the difference between a corgi and a jrt (which is to say not). It's just... mind boggling. Different perceptions, I guess.


But you KNOW dogs.... As do most people here..... Of course we are going to look at photos and instantly pick out which breed is which..


----------



## MountainDogs (Sep 25, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I know exactly what I said in each post to you....
> 
> I also have read everything you have said, this post and others, links, etc
> 
> ...




As you yourself write "It likely was done many years before it was ever any written record"
So I can't provide what doesn't exists. 
It is highly plausible that cropping & docking first started on Caucasus & in Central Asia some thousands of years ago. And as far as I know no one back then wrote the reason behind it down.
According to the chairman of Turkmen club of cynologists, a terracotta figure of a cropped & docked dog from thousands of years ago was found in the settlement of Altyn-Depe in the territory of modern day Turkmenistan.
I don't know how accurate his claim is, but here's the picture of this statuette:











We know that ancient Romans also practiced cropping/docking, written records do exist of why this was done in certain parts of ancient Rome.
Apparently the Romans did it for various reasons, varying from them thinking that it would prevent rabies to thinking it would strengthen the back and increase speed, or thinking it would prevent injuries, etc, etc.
Docking won't prevent rabies obviously, and we know that not all (ancient) practices are based on reality.
We also know that Turkey, parts of Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan & Iran were at some point under the Roman empire as well.
So who knows how or where exactly this practice developed, how it spread and who influenced whom.
Below are the pictures of an ancient Roman sculpture of a Molossian dog with a docked tail (the sculpture is also known as the "Jennigs dog"), which I'm sure many forum members have already seen.
What I find interesting is that when I look at the zoomed in pictures, the ears appear cropped as well (to me at least). 
And this dog to me looks remarkably similar to LGD's found throughout Central Asia.








































Many traditions have been preserved by being passed down orally, such as docking & cropping of LGD's in that part of the world.
Based on the recent written records of what the shepherds from those areas have said and based on the experience with LGD breeds, many people like myself, have observed that such practice of cropping/docking has been heavily influenced by local believes, myths if you will, and not really by the practical necessity.
One has to keep in mind that those parts of the world have always been rich in all kinds of customs, practices & rituals that people there did (and a lot still do) take very seriously. 
As Luv mi pets put it so nicely (better than I could) "_Their whole world is built around following these traditions. It is hard for someone who was not brought up to follow traditions that have been passed on for centuries to understand how and why people just follow what the grandparents did._"

The docking that we see mainly throughout Central Asia never made sense to me.
Aside from the fact that a dog's tail performs various important functions.... When someone states that tails in LGD's must be docked so they can sense the predators in the winter better (_because they feel that way the dogs can't cover their noses while they're sleeping if their tail is docked_) or in order to prevent injuries, even though the overwhelming majority of the LGD's work successfully with their tails intact, then it is not a statement I can't take seriously.
And I've never experienced that a cropped LGD hears better than an LGD with natural ears. From my experience cropping doesn't influences hearing.
It is very important to point this out again and again: *the majority of shepherds all over the world don't believe in cropping/docking. In most LGD breeds such practice either never existed or not on a large scale.*
If cropping/docking was a necessity, all shepherds would have been cutting ears & tails of their dogs.
With so many evidence out there showing that cropping/docking isn't necessary in order for an LGD (of any breed) to do its job successfully, then naturally one has to wonder why this practice remained after all these many years.

As stated above, traditions are often very hard to break, especially in some cultures. 
So if a shepherd, especially back in the old days, depends on the livestock for their livelihood and if they've always been taught that if you cut off the ears (and in some places) the tail too, your dog will hear better, sense the predators better and be less prone to injuries, then that's what they are going to do.
And that's what they will be teaching their children & grandchildren too.
Regardless whether this is true or not. Because as someone once said to me, it's not like cropping/docking prevents the LGD from doing its job. So they may never figure out that it isn't necessary.

I've also heard many times about how cropping supposedly prevents ear infections. From my experience this isn't true either. 
Some dogs are simply more prone to ear infections than others, regardless whether they're cropped or not. Cutting their ear flaps off won't prevent it.

LGD's, and especially the ones that work in open range operations and have had altercations with predators can and do suffer injuries (_but if the shepherd runs the right numbers, these altercations and thus injuries are then normally less common_).
These injuries can be found on various parts of their bodies, but the wolves don't specifically go for the ears (or the tail for that matter).
Not that long ago I was talking to this one shepherd living on the mountains in Croatia. His LGD's have had several altercations with wolves until he figured out the right number for his situation.
He has had different LGD breeds over the years and he now sticks with Kangals because in his opinion Kangals are very effective against predators while at the same time they aren't HA.
All traits that are important to him.
Anyway, he has had both cropped/docked dogs (that's how his CAO's came from the breeder) and dogs with ears & tails intact. 
He also occasionally breeds his Kangals, but he never crops the puppies because he doesn't thinks it's necessary (_he made this decision even before the cropping/docking ban came in place there_). 
Wolves have injured his LGD's in the past (before he was running the right number of LGD's) three times. 
One of his dogs was bitten in the head, one on the neck and one on its back. 
I've heard similar accounts from other people whose LGD's suffered an attack by the wolves. 
And there's (sadly) a number of pictures of LGD's that were eaten by wolves, while their ears remained completely intact (the wolves also didn't eat the head).
I'm not saying wolves or coyotes will never injure the ears/tails of an LGD, but it doesn't appears to be their prime target. 
Nor does it appear that cropping/docking makes a difference in such altercation.


----------



## yv0nne (Feb 21, 2015)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And a lay person.....Someone that does not know Dogs.... Sees a floppy eared dog and could easily assume it is a hound.



Sooooo many people think my Vizsla is a pitbull, Weim or Lab. Non-dog people are never going to be good at the guessing game because they don't know how to guess. Because Penn is mistaken for other breeds, should we change how Vizslas look? I'm genuinely curious.. why do breeds need to be distinctly different to non-dog people? Is that even possible for every breed lol


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

yv0nne said:


> Sooooo many people think my Vizsla is a pitbull, Weim or Lab. Non-dog people are never going to be good at the guessing game because they don't know how to guess. Because Penn is mistaken for other breeds, should we change how Vizslas look? I'm genuinely curious.. why do breeds need to be distinctly different to non-dog people? Is that even possible for every breed lol


This is ultimately the thing.

Lay people guess breeds wrong ALL THE TIME. A lay person thinking my Rat Terrier is a beagle mix doesn't mean he looks like a beagle mix, it means people don't know dogs! I mean, honestly. They're never going to know dogs, and if your dog being mistaken for another breed is devastating for you, well. I can't think of a single solitary breed you can safely own, because cropped or uncropped, docked or undocked, people are GOING to mistake every breed out there for something else.

Have you seen those 'what breed do you have according to the general public?' threads? I have. They're funny.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

This week Hank has been:

- A heeler
- a JRT (many times. this is becoming our most common guess?)
- a rat terrier
- a bird dog (aka pointer)
- is he maybe part dalmatian?

Yeah people aren't great at guessing.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have come across MULTIPLE people who are seriously sure Kylie is a shih-tzu. 

I mean I get the "...SERIOUSLY?!" thing, because on what planet does Kylie even remotely resemble a shih-tzu, but you know even with purebred dogs - Bug's a pit, and Jack's a beagle mutt, and your paps are chinchillas. 

You're not getting away from that with cropping and docking.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

MountainDogs said:


> As you yourself write "It likely was done many years before it was ever any written record"
> So I can't provide what doesn't exists.
> It is highly plausible that cropping & docking first started on Caucasus & in Central Asia some thousands of years ago. And as far as I know no one back then wrote the reason behind it down.


And even if they had, it may or may not have had any validity. People still think teething causes ears to fall because it's been repeated over and over so many times, so I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe that the tradition might not actually have any validity to it.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> This is ultimately the thing.
> 
> Lay people guess breeds wrong ALL THE TIME. A lay person thinking my Rat Terrier is a beagle mix doesn't mean he looks like a beagle mix, it means people don't know dogs! I mean, honestly. They're never going to know dogs, and if your dog being mistaken for another breed is devastating for you, well. I can't think of a single solitary breed you can safely own, because cropped or uncropped, docked or undocked, people are GOING to mistake every breed out there for something else.
> 
> Have you seen those 'what breed do you have according to the general public?' threads? I have. They're funny.


Heck I had an ACD called an Alaskan Sheep Dog......

And my ACDs are called australian Shepherds all the time... They do not even look like Aussies...

German Shepherd Puppy is common... 

Many people think they are an OLD OLD dog that has gone grey....

I still say a natural eared Dobe looks Houndy.....


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Clyde has been...

Boxer/hound
Shar Pei/hound
Purebred great dane
Doberman mix
Evil giant pit bull that wants to eat your face


All that aside, I do see why people wouldn't want houndy ears in a dobe. If I had one, I likely would give it a military crop (little or no taping/posting of the ears) mainly to make it a visual deterrent... the ones who are uncropped do look too friendly to be a scary protector. (And I have no issue with those who prefer the natural look)


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> And even if they had, it may or may not have had any validity. People still think teething causes ears to fall because it's been repeated over and over so many times, so I'm not sure why it's so hard to believe that the tradition might not actually have any validity to it.


I have provided additional comments on this..... 

I cannot help that I have for over 40 years, watched erect eared dogs, have their ears drop, get floppy or sloppy at around the same time as teething.... Then come back up/ tighten up.Not all of them.... But it happens..... 

And I also said, you MIGHT be right.... It might not have anything to do with teething.....

But it does happen around the same time as teething..... 

Something causes it......


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, something causes it. And whatever that is, tends to happen around the same time that teething happens. Correlation.

I've heard people say that somehow the teeth suck the calcium out of the ears, which is... not how any of it works. At all.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MountainDogs said:


> As you yourself write "It likely was done many years before it was ever any written record"
> So I can't provide what doesn't exists.
> It is highly plausible that cropping & docking first started on Caucasus & in Central Asia some thousands of years ago. And as far as I know no one back then wrote the reason behind it down.
> According to the chairman of Turkmen club of cynologists, a terracotta figure of a cropped & docked dog from thousands of years ago was found in the settlement of Altyn-Depe in the territory of modern day Turkmenistan.
> ...


Great Post.... And a ton of information....

What was done in Ancient Rome does not mean something was done for the same reasons in the Caucasians. 


So still nothing to prove why cropping off the ears in CO's started..... And with the risk/reward of cutting on the dog...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Yes, something causes it. And whatever that is, tends to happen around the same time that teething happens. Correlation.
> 
> I've heard people say that somehow the teeth suck the calcium out of the ears, which is... not how any of it works. At all.



Then tell us how it works.... I would LOVE to know.... And will make it a personal mission to correct this great misinformation......


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BigLittle said:


> All that aside, I do see why people wouldn't want houndy ears in a dobe. If I had one, I likely would give it a military crop (little or no taping/posting of the ears) mainly to make it a visual deterrent... the ones who are uncropped do look too friendly to be a scary protector. (And I have no issue with those who prefer the natural look)


Honestly, I like the LOOK of cropped dobes AND danes. Especially danes. I don't think I'd ever bother getting either one cropped, and I sure as heck couldn't be fussed with posting (which means okay definitely wouldn't crop even if I, personally, was willing to surgically alter a dog to my preferences), but I like the look just fine. I'd be all over one already cropped and posted, provided I was looking for one of those breeds.

I don't have an issue with that. Or saying they look sweeter with their ears (I think that's true, too). I just object with people throwing around "THEY LOOK LIKE HOUNDS!!!" like a-) that's an insult and b-) like it's actually true.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Then tell us how it works.... I would LOVE to know.... And will make it a personal mission to correct this great misinformation......


To my knowledge, nobody really knows why those two things tend to happen at the same time. I'm not sure there needs to be more of an explanation beyond "that's just how ear cartilage acts until it's fully mature." 

But even if adult teeth had not been formed long, long before the puppy was actually teething (which they were), and even if cartilage contained large amounts of calcium, enough to form a mouthful of adult teeth (which it does not), that's not how the body mobilizes calcium. It doesn't steal it from whatever happens to be nearby.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> To my knowledge, nobody really knows why those two things tend to happen at the same time. I'm not sure there needs to be more of an explanation beyond "that's just how ear cartilage acts until it's fully mature."
> 
> But even if adult teeth had not been formed long, long before the puppy was actually teething (which they were), and even if cartilage contained large amounts of calcium, enough to form a mouthful of adult teeth (which it does not), that's not how the body mobilizes calcium. It doesn't steal it from whatever happens to be nearby.


Let me ask you this....

Does a growing body prioritize where nutrients go?


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

some interesting articles on LGD or LPD dogs. To me it is not a matter of cropped or docked but the spiked collar would be the most beneficial in keeping a LGD safe and alive http://lordsofnature.org/documents/LivestockProtectionDogs.pdf
http://stephenbodio.blogspot.com/2014/06/guardian-dogs-wolves-in-alps.html

Also, I never had a breeder do the ears of any of my dobermans. I also see this at work. It is the new owner who does the cropping and not the breeder/ A Doberman, 
Boxer, Great Dane can take many months of taping and posting afterwards. This would be too long and tiresome for a breeder to hold onto till the dog's ears are able to stand up by themselves.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> some interesting articles on LGD or LPD dogs. To me it is not a matter of cropped or docked but the spiked collar would be the most beneficial in keeping a LGD safe and alive http://lordsofnature.org/documents/LivestockProtectionDogs.pdf
> http://stephenbodio.blogspot.com/2014/06/guardian-dogs-wolves-in-alps.html
> 
> Also, I never had a breeder do the ears of any of my dobermans. I also see this at work. It is the new owner who does the cropping and not the breeder/ A Doberman,
> Boxer, Great Dane can take many months of taping and posting afterwards. This would be too long and tiresome for a breeder to hold onto till the dog's ears are able to stand up by themselves.


I bought a heavy spiked collar for the LGD the guy that leases my pasture from me has....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Also, I never had a breeder do the ears of any of my dobermans. I also see this at work. It is the new owner who does the cropping and not the breeder/ A Doberman,
> Boxer, Great Dane can take many months of taping and posting afterwards. This would be too long and tiresome for a breeder to hold onto till the dog's ears are able to stand up by themselves.


Posting ears is a pain..... A LOT of people give up too soon...
And if the Vet that did the crop, did not do a good job, they may never stand....

I call those helicopter dogs.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Let me ask you this....
> 
> Does a growing body prioritize where nutrients go?


The teeth are already formed. There is no need for nutrients to be prioritized to the teeth from the ears, and the cartilage of the ears does not contain the nutrients needed to make teeth. 

The body does not steal nutrients from specific body parts to nourish other specific body parts. It's not like siphoning gas from one tank to another. There's a big pool everyone draws from. Otherwise fractures couldn't heal without making nearby bones weaker.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

sassafras said:


> To my knowledge, nobody really knows why those two things tend to happen at the same time. I'm not sure there needs to be more of an explanation beyond "that's just how ear cartilage acts until it's fully mature."
> 
> But even if adult teeth had not been formed long, long before the puppy was actually teething (which they were), and even if cartilage contained large amounts of calcium, enough to form a mouthful of adult teeth (which it does not), that's not how the body mobilizes calcium. It doesn't steal it from whatever happens to be nearby.


My theory is that the ears grow long first, and then thicken later. The "ear spurt" just coincides with teething. Clyde was SUPER houndy around teething time with his enormous hanging ears. It wasn't until he got older that they wanted to perk a bit. Louie's ears just went insane. Perk, drop, semi-perk all within a week. They finally chose to stand up around the same age as when Clyde lost his huge hound ears.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> The teeth are already formed. There is no need for nutrients to be prioritized to the teeth from the ears, and the cartilage of the ears does not contain the nutrients needed to make teeth.
> 
> The body does not steal nutrients from specific body parts to nourish other specific body parts. It's not like siphoning gas from one tank to another. There's a big pool everyone draws from. Otherwise fractures couldn't heal without making nearby bones weaker.


Not exactly what I asked...... But I get the gist....

I will never make the teeth/ear reference again....

Aside from the fact that it happens at the same time...


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> I have come across MULTIPLE people who are seriously sure Kylie is a shih-tzu.
> 
> I mean I get the "...SERIOUSLY?!" thing, because on what planet does Kylie even remotely resemble a shih-tzu, but you know even with purebred dogs - Bug's a pit, and Jack's a beagle mutt, *and your paps are chinchillas.*
> 
> You're not getting away from that with cropping and docking.


That is still my favorite one!


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Do you really think my uncropped Doberman looks like a Hound? She can stalk too just not like any Border Collie.
https://youtu.be/9gv_tZIMR78


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Kyllobernese said:


> Do you really think my uncropped Doberman looks like a Hound? She can stalk too just not like any Border Collie.
> https://youtu.be/9gv_tZIMR78


She is too cute! I'd say she looks more like a Lab with that toy in her mouth! 

She is beautiful the way she is. I still prefer docked Dobes, like yours.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kyllobernese said:


> Do you really think my uncropped Doberman looks like a Hound? She can stalk too just not like any Border Collie.
> https://youtu.be/9gv_tZIMR78


Her head looks houndy.... and I am NOT knocking her.....


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Kyllobernese said:


> Do you really think my uncropped Doberman looks like a Hound? She can stalk too just not like any Border Collie.
> https://youtu.be/9gv_tZIMR78


Definitely a coonhound x border collie. 

(she's adorable!)


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> Do you really think my uncropped Doberman looks like a Hound? She can stalk too just not like any Border Collie.
> https://youtu.be/9gv_tZIMR78


I think people were referencing uncropped and undocked dobes. A dobe with just natural ears doesn't look houndish, I just don't like the look lol.


----------



## trayne91 (Apr 6, 2015)

I do not like ear cropping/tail docking. Unless there is a huge medical benefit your dog is getting from this, then it is purely a cosmetic surgery. Your dog undergoes pain just so he/she can look they way you want them to look, for your own selfish reasons. I could never in a million years put my dog through unnecessary pain on purpose. I could never hurt my dog. It's just plain wrong, in my opinion.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

trayne91 said:


> I do not like ear cropping/tail docking. Unless there is a huge medical benefit your dog is getting from this, then it is purely a cosmetic surgery. Your dog undergoes pain just so he/she can look they way you want them to look, for your own selfish reasons. I could never in a million years put my dog through unnecessary pain on purpose. I could never hurt my dog. It's just plain wrong, in my opinion.


Would you spay or neuter your dog? 
Because that causes significant pain and is a surgery of convenience.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Would you spay or neuter your dog?
> Because that causes significant pain and is a surgery of convenience.


yeah I find it funny that people who are so against a simple procedure that doesnt really affect the dog in the long term, and are so willing to do a procedure such as s/n that DOES affect the dog long term. 

that being said, I will always spay all females that are intended for just pets (as I am just not responsible enough to deal with the heat cycles LOL) but males, I can easily keep an intact male (unless they are just insufferable) ... BUT I am not anti-cropping/docking either LOL


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Once again spaying and neutering is not done for cosmetics. 

It's not the same. Each procedure should be considered separately and risks and benefits should be weighed. 

I feel like this is the song that never ends.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Once again spaying and neutering is not done for cosmetics.
> 
> It's not the same. Each procedure should be considered separately and risks and benefits should be weighed.
> 
> I feel like this is the song that never ends.


Causing a dog pain is causing a dog pain....

Neutering is a matter of convenience. 

Neither is a matter of necessity. 

Both are elective.... 

They fit right under same heading....

People get wrapped up in the social aspect of cropping and docking. 
There is a similar social aspect to speuter....

The social aspect of any of them do not matter to the dogs..... 

IF you are against causing pain to a dog via an elective surgery that you the owner want, then you are against crop, dock, spay and neuter....


----------



## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

My dog must have missed the teething memo, her ears decided to stand up at 3 years old.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Causing a dog pain is causing a dog pain....
> 
> Neutering is a matter of convenience.
> 
> ...


thank you (too short)


----------



## seaboxador (Sep 23, 2012)

It makes as much sense to me as cropping a human child's ears. It's illegal in the UK now from what I recall.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Probably shouldn't but come on. 



JohnnyBandit said:


> Causing a dog pain is causing a dog pain....


By that argument a lot of things could be considered cruel. You KNOW this is ridiculous. The reason behind causing the animal pain is what makes something ok or not ok. Lopping off a tail in an adult dog is going to cause the dog pain. But if the dog continues to re-injure it then maybe it's worth it. But that doesn't make it ok to lop off all adult dogs' tails. These things aren't universally ok or not ok.



> Neutering is a matter of convenience.


Convenience =/= cosmetics. 

Also, there are more than just owner convenience that are affected by spaying and neutering. I know every time you say there are no health issues with keeping an animal intact but I know several bitches that have had pyometra these last few years including a good friend that lost her girl from it. Also, pet overpopulation. 

Butbutbut Lauren, you can just keep your intact females and males from breeding! 

Yes, you can. But a lot of people won't/don't have the ability to. We can argue till we're blue in the face if they SHOULD but they DON'T so it doesn't really matter. 



> Neither is a matter of necessity.
> 
> Both are elective....


That is neither here nor there. 



> They fit right under same heading....


Disagree here completely. 



> People get wrapped up in the social aspect of cropping and docking.
> There is a similar social aspect to speuter....
> 
> The social aspect of any of them do not matter to the dogs.....


No idea what you're talking about here so....



> IF you are against causing pain to a dog via an elective surgery that you the owner want, then you are against crop, dock, spay and neuter....


No. People are not against elective surgery. That is not the issue. The issue is elective surgery that is done for COSMETICS. The issue is that some people do not believe that 'I like the look' is justification for the procedure. People are not spaying their dogs because they like the look of spayed females better.

You can believe neutering dogs is bad. You can believe that 'I don't want to deal with heats, pyo, and potentially having puppies' is not enough justification for spaying. But that has nothing to do with cropping and whether or not it is ethical. These are two different procedures with different reasoning behind them. Just because someone is against one does not mean they automatically have to be against the other. 

I don't know why looking at every procedure, the benefits of each, and the reasoning behind each individually is so darn hard?


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Sometimes people have to neuter/spay their dog because of a medical condition that is caused by a hormonal imbalance that spaying/neutering would help. Right now a 13 year old intact male dog is on estrogen pills hoping to reduce the prostate. It is coming in daily to have a urinary catheter passed in order for the bladder to be emptied. The prostate is so enlarged the dog is unable to empty his bladder. The owners are hoping to have a few more days/weeks with the dog. Yes, they will be neutering for convenience because I am sure the daily trips to the clinic can be bothersome. If the dog makes it through the surgery. It would have been a lot easier when the dog was younger to neuter instead of neutering the dog at this age. Classic example of a pick your poison. They decided not to neuter and now their dog is not doing too good because of the testosterone in his body. So it is not about convenience all the time, it is about medical conditions making it necessary to do the operation.

My dog, Bear, a Long Haired Chihuahua is now a docked tailed dog due to an injury. It was so much easier to do the surgery, have the tail heal and be done with it. Complain to me if you want and hate me but I will show you a video of a dog in total agony over the injury to his tail. 

I did the post op of a pit bull puppy today that had an ear crop yesterday. The dog was more bothered by the e-collar than by her ears. She was all happy and kissing everyone. She left a puddle of urine wherever she went. Then her tail would be going back and forth. Yes, she had the spray of urine going everywhere. Excited pee-er! I really think even at that young age those pit tails are a lethal weapon.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Convenience =/= cosmetics.
> 
> Also, there are more than just owner convenience that are affected by spaying and neutering. I know every time you say there are no health issues with keeping an animal intact but I know several bitches that have had pyometra these last few years including a good friend that lost her girl from it. Also, pet overpopulation.
> 
> ...


 here is the classic example of someone I wish had the ability to keep their two dogs from breeding. I wish they had found it convenient to spay and neuter their dogs. I am sure this breeding did not have a good outcome. Also, I just have to ask WHY? 

WARNING! the following video will show two dogs in a mating position. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHuJie7qqnc


Youtube and Craigslist is just full of ads from people like this. If spaying and neutering would have prevented the above scenario I say go get the bitch spayed.


----------



## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

CptJack said:


> The crouch and 'stare' is actually just one method of herding - well, sometimes. Not all BCs do it, and obviously non-BCs do it but it's pretty heavily associated. You can look up 'the eye' and be pointed to tons and tons of BC sites or 'stylish' with border collie and herding. As above, it's not only a BC thing but it is VERY much part of the predatory sequence. Not overly surprising that lots of other dogs do it.
> 
> http://www.bordercolliemuseum.org/BCLooks/BC_Looks.html
> 
> ...


This dog looks freakishly similar to jewel body wise.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Sometimes people have to neuter/spay their dog because of a medical condition that is caused by a hormonal imbalance that spaying/neutering would help. Right now a 13 year old intact male dog is on estrogen pills hoping to reduce the prostate. It is coming in daily to have a urinary catheter passed in order for the bladder to be emptied. The prostate is so enlarged the dog is unable to empty his bladder. The owners are hoping to have a few more days/weeks with the dog. Yes, they will be neutering for convenience because I am sure the daily trips to the clinic can be bothersome. If the dog makes it through the surgery. It would have been a lot easier when the dog was younger to neuter instead of neutering the dog at this age. Classic example of a pick your poison. They decided not to neuter and now their dog is not doing too good because of the testosterone in his body. So it is not about convenience all the time, it is about medical conditions making it necessary to do the operation.
> 
> My dog, Bear, a Long Haired Chihuahua is now a docked tailed dog due to an injury. It was so much easier to do the surgery, have the tail heal and be done with it. Complain to me if you want and hate me but I will show you a video of a dog in total agony over the injury to his tail.
> 
> I did the post op of a pit bull puppy today that had an ear crop yesterday. The dog was more bothered by the e-collar than by her ears. She was all happy and kissing everyone. She left a puddle of urine wherever she went. Then her tail would be going back and forth. Yes, she had the spray of urine going everywhere. Excited pee-er! I really think even at that young age those pit tails are a lethal weapon.


Sometimes people have to trim an ear, dock a tail...


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I guess we will all have to agree to disagree on this, because whether or not it is mandatory or not, people ARE often more willing to put their dog through major surgery ... which is done at the discretion of the dog owner before they would crop or dock ... which is minor surgery and also done at the discretion of the dog owner.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I don't know why looking at every procedure, the benefits of each, and the reasoning behind each individually is so darn hard?


It is not hard..... Quite easy in fact.....

But pain is pain and always a medical issue...

Benefits can be medical issues, but with the procedures were are talking about... They are SOCIAL issues..... 

I am ONLY arguing the pain side of it.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> But pain is pain and always a medical issue..
> 
> I am ONLY arguing the pain side of it.



Good vets can prescribe a multimodal pain relief regiment. I have seen animals wake up from amputations and show no sign of pain. Nerve blocks placed just right and pain relief given before a surgery is a big help. Pain relief has come a long way in the animal medical field. I and my ear drums are so thankful for this.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Pain is pain, but for all I don't consider cropping and docking a big deal, inflicting pain on something FOR ITS BENEFIT, to prevent further pain and/or treat a health issue is not inflicting pain just for the sake of doing so - or so I can be happy with the way the dog looks, as opposed to the dog getting any benefit from it at all. 

I mean admittedly I agree that most s/n surgeries are for convenience and think it's a dumb comparison in general, but 'pain is pain' is akin to saying well, it hurts when you get an antibiotic shot so it's all right to stick a needle in a dog because you think it's fun.

Stop making stupid arguments, and stop trying to have the last word. You're not making yourself or your side look good here. Just stick with 'because I can and I prefer the appearance' and move on. Maybe add in preferring animals as property and limited legislation about such things - that's a reasonable stance to take. 

There is NO GOOD argument to be made for cropping and docking benefiting dogs. We've got 22 pages of evidence of that.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

My opinion. To each their own. If you want a dock / crop that's fine. If you don't that's fine. 

I've never understood why it is so controversial. I know it is hugely unnecessary for most dogs but it isn't anything major either. Obviously when done properly.


----------



## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

Question, since this seems to have run its course...... 

My dog will soon be "laser-cropped". Is this normal? Better in terms of pain? I am going this route because the breeder uses this vet for his show dogs, and when I contacted local vets I got a lot of "is it like a xyz-breed crop?" So knowing I've seen bad crop jobs in pictures, I decided to leave it n the breeders hands..... His vet is more expensive, but with most things, more money for peace of mind is a no brainer for me.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> Pain is pain, but for all I don't consider cropping and docking a big deal, inflicting pain on something FOR ITS BENEFIT, to prevent further pain and/or treat a health issue is not inflicting pain just for the sake of doing so - or so I can be happy with the way the dog looks, as opposed to the dog getting any benefit from it at all.
> 
> I mean admittedly I agree that most s/n surgeries are for convenience and think it's a dumb comparison in general, but 'pain is pain' is akin to saying well, it hurts when you get an antibiotic shot so it's all right to stick a needle in a dog because you think it's fun.
> 
> ...




Actually there is no good argument to stop cropping and docking....

What we have is 22 pages of opinions on the matter....


If my arguments seem stupid to you..... Ignore them.... Free country.....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Beta Man said:


> Question, since this seems to have run its course......
> 
> My dog will soon be "laser-cropped". Is this normal? Better in terms of pain? I am going this route because the breeder uses this vet for his show dogs, and when I contacted local vets I got a lot of "is it like a xyz-breed crop?" So knowing I've seen bad crop jobs in pictures, I decided to leave it n the breeders hands..... His vet is more expensive, but with most things, more money for peace of mind is a no brainer for me.


If your breeder has a vet, they use and respect...... AND your breeder's dogs have nice ears... USE THAT VET...


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

they use a laser now? interesting!


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> Good vets can prescribe a multimodal pain relief regiment. I have seen animals wake up from amputations and show no sign of pain. Nerve blocks placed just right and pain relief given before a surgery is a big help. Pain relief has come a long way in the animal medical field. I and my ear drums are so thankful for this.


I agree..... So if a pet was to incur some discomfort in cropping or docking meds could easily take care of it...

Ending the objection on the basis of pain.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Why in the world would you only argue the pain angle? The whole point of deciding whether to do any procedure is weighing the risks and benefits, not simply whether it was painful or not. No one would ever do anything from vaccinating to microchipping to extracting teeth to orthopedic surgeries if pain was the only consideration. It makes no sense whatsoever.

ETA: And my objection isn't strictly pain, anyway. It's that there is no benefit beyond cosmetics.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Why in the world would you only argue the pain angle? The whole point of deciding whether to do any procedure is weighing the risks and benefits, not simply whether it was painful or not. No one would ever do anything from vaccinating to microchipping to extracting teeth to orthopedic surgeries if pain was the only consideration. It makes no sense whatsoever.
> 
> ETA: And my objection isn't strictly pain, anyway. It's that there is no benefit beyond cosmetics.


It is not me that is arguing the pain angle...

I do not own cropped or docked dogs..... There are not cropped or docked dogs on my wish list....
My wish list is moot anyway because I am going to have ACDs and Labradors..... At least until I build (or if) I build on my other property and get some livestock. Then I may add an Anatolian.... So not cropped or docked again....

I THINK people should have the right to crop and dock as they please... And I think people should have the right to spay and neuter as they please.... I am STRONGLY against government regulation of either..... 



Those that say they would never do anything to cause pain to their dogs are the ones that make it only an argument on the pain angle..... 

Not me...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And my edit is this....

I will readily agree... In many if not most cases it is purely cosmetic..
A pet or show dobe... A mini Schnauzer, a pet Aussie, etc etc etc.

But I have also seen working dogs that suffered.... because of an owners very selfish decision to not crop or dock....... And yea.... I agree there are non cropped breeds that do the same job.... Owners that make a decision to not crop/dock.... Should have picked one of those breeds...


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Those that say they would never do anything to cause pain to their dogs are the ones that make it only an argument on the pain angle.....
> 
> Not me...


No one has argued this.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> No one has argued this.


That is the only reason I brought up the speuter argument.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am ONLY arguing the pain side of it.





JohnnyBandit said:


> It is not me that is arguing the pain angle...


I do think you have been arguing the pain angle, and that it's why you brought up spay/neuter (because it's painful to the dog). Speaking of which... I don't understand how the two can be compared. One is essentially cosmetic surgery, the other is a procedure that may benefit the dog as an individual (notice that I used "may" - I know it can have negative consequences on the dog) and definitely benefits dogs in general, by erasing any possibility of producing unwanted puppies. It makes zero sense to compare both procedures. Zero.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I think people who dock/crop for *cosmetic* reasons just have to bite the bullet here and admit that their choice is purely for cosmetic reasons, not for the benefit of the dog.

Cropping/docking cannot be compared to spaying/neuter because it does not benefit dogs as a whole, nor does it benefit the dog on an individual level. Nor can it be compared to any other major surgery that is done for the benefit of the dog.

It has no benefits. You can't argue it ethically at all.

One of my criteria for my next dog is that the breeder does not dock. This is because he/she is not a working dog and there is absolutely no benefit to my dog getting cropped/docked.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

taquitos said:


> I think people dock/crop for *cosmetic* reasons just have to bite the bullet here and admit that their choice is purely for cosmetic reasons, not for the benefit of the dog.
> 
> Cropping/docking cannot be compared to spaying/neuter because it does not benefit dogs as a whole, nor does it benefit the dog on an individual level. Nor can it be compared to any other major surgery that is done for the benefit of the dog.
> 
> ...


Yep. Also what about mixed breed dogs? How do you know when to crop/dock them or when not to? Why are only purebreds getting the supposed benefits of cropping/docking?

Maybe it's just me, but yea, I don't feel like my opinion on what looks good or doesn't look good is enough of a reason to put a dog (or any animal for that matter) through surgery just to look the way I like because I like it and I want it and IT'S MY RIGHT DAMMIT.

Realistically Luna still has a mommy belly, but I'm not going to make her have a tummy tuck because I think it would look better.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Whistlejacket said:


> It makes zero sense to compare both procedures. Zero.


Makes a ton of sense with people make statements to the effect that they would never do anything to cause their dog pain.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Yep. Also what about mixed breed dogs? How do you know when to crop/dock them or when not to? Why are only purebreds getting the supposed benefits of cropping/docking?
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but yea, I don't feel like my opinion on what looks good or doesn't look good is enough of a reason to put a dog (or any animal for that matter) through surgery just to look the way I like because I like it and I want it and IT'S MY RIGHT DAMMIT.
> 
> Realistically Luna still has a mommy belly, but I'm not going to make her have a tummy tuck because I think it would look better.


Exactly.

If I don't like the look of the dog "au naturel" and prefer the cropped/docked look... then honestly I'm just not going to get that breed or I would look for a rescue who already had them done.

I just personally don't feel like it's right to put an animal through that (pain or not otherwise) just because I want them to look a certain way. It doesn't sit right with me at all. It's the assumption that the dog is somehow my property and nothing less/more. It assumes that the animal has no autonomy of its own. Like I understand that the dog cannot have complex thoughts and make choices regarding the matter of its own looks but that doesn't make it right for others to make decisions like that for him/her especially when it constitutes putting the animal through surgery (minor or otherwise).


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Makes a ton of sense with people make statements to the effect that they would never do anything to cause their dog pain.


I don't think anyone said that. What many people have said is they would never do anything to cause their dog pain _unnecessarily_. As it happens, cropping and docking fall into that category because they are cosmetic, i.e. not necessary. Neutering a dog can have downsides too for the individual dog (though in some situations it can help with some behavioural or health issues), but it ALWAYS benefits dogs as a whole, so no, it is not unnecessary and does not compare to cropping and docking.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm going to cut Johnny's next argument off before he bothers to make it:

S/n is not necessary to benefit dogs as a whole or an individual dog. That's the argument - it's purely for the convenience of the owner, it hurts the dog, and can have long term negative health impacts that cropping/docking don't. Preemptively spaying or neutering when there is no issue is like docking to prevent happy tail or cropping to prevent torn ears. 

Again: That's going to be his argument, so I'm going to go ahead and rebut it:

There are arguments to be made that spaying/neutering DOES benefit the dog. Most people, when they spay/neuter, do so with the belief that they are doing something that is for the HEALTH of their pet, and to prevent pet over population. Whether that is actually true or not becomes irrelevant. They BELIEVE they are helping the dog/dogs as a group. The percentage of people who believe that cropping and docking is done for the medical benefit of their dog, much less their breed, is much, much lower. It is done because they like the look. Period, the end. 

Motivation DOES matter. So, too, does the fact that there IS info (actual science stuff) out there that says spaying/neutering helps. There is no such information relating to docking and cropping.


----------



## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

taquitos said:


> I think people who dock/crop for *cosmetic* reasons just have to bite the bullet here and admit that their choice is purely for cosmetic reasons, not for the benefit of the dog.


I more or less stated that pages ago. I did say there were benefits beyond cosmetics that I have been told, but I don't know how valid they are, but my decision was made mostly due to cosmetic reasons.


----------



## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I'm looking at getting a docked breed (Yorkshire Terrier, didn't even realize they were docked til I did more research) in the next couple of years, I think even if the breeder gives me a choice to dock or not I will go ahead and have the puppy docked. Mostly because I have been looking at lots of pictures lately and I just like the shorter tails better, I've actually always been a fan of those little tails I think they are adorable. My boyfriend's mom had a docked min pin and I just loved how wagging his nub made his whole butt wiggle. It's definitely cosmetic for me and I don't think it's that bad, but I've always thought that it was more uncomfortable for the puppies than painful and that cropping was worse although I'm not against cropping either. I could never own one but a cropped Dogo is one of if not the most handsome dogs I've ever seen


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> I just loved how wagging his nub made his whole butt wiggle.


Luna definitely full butt-wiggles when she's excited, and she has her full tail.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Beta Man said:


> I more or less stated that pages ago. I did say there were benefits beyond cosmetics that I have been told, but I don't know how valid they are, but my decision was made mostly due to cosmetic reasons.


Yeah I don't know. There have been studies saying how docking can also be detrimental to the dog-dog interactions as well as general health (balance, etc.). I haven't read anything about how docking actually helps.

Yeah sure tails can get injured... but so can the rest of the body. I don't know how many times my old boss' Vizsla was in discomfort because he would slice his paw when he was out in the woods... I just don't buy it.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> Yep. Also what about mixed breed dogs? How do you know when to crop/dock them or when not to? Why are only purebreds getting the supposed benefits of cropping/docking?


TBF some idiot gave my big schnauzery mutt a pitbull crop :\


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmm, I was just reading some farm thing about docking lambs and it said that if they're docked too short it can cause Big Problems. Does that happen with puppies too? Like Rotts, especially, since they're supposed to get docked so short (well, my Rott has about 6 inches of tail so maybe it's only the show Rotts that get cut that short)? It was talking about fecal incontinence, back leg weakness, sometimes full hind-end paralysis, etc.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I would wager that if docked incorrectly it could definitely have repercussions.

I have always admitted that aesthetics are important to me. I feel no moral or ethical emotions that make it problematic for me. I am actually pretty apathetic about it. I DO feel that my stand on the matter would likely be different if we didn't have the advancements we do in terms of pain management. But I still wouldn't try and impose my personal ethics/morals on somebody else.

I know it's completely anecdotal, but ever since Moo had that hematoma and ended up with a floppy ear, we are constantly battling issues with excess wax and he's had a couple of ear infections (never an issue before).


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

everyone correct me if I am wrong .. it's been a long time 15 years since I looked at bringing farm animals in... but I thought the danger of docking the lambs was the contamination an open wound would be exposed to for an over population of sheep kept in a small area of land over years and years where the vaccination shed into the soil was overwhelming it could infect the lambs... "some thing like that ... to do with infection and dying when living in a small over populated environment.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> I would wager that if docked incorrectly it could definitely have repercussions.
> 
> I have always admitted that aesthetics are important to me. I feel no moral or ethical emotions that make it problematic for me. I am actually pretty apathetic about it. I DO feel that my stand on the matter would likely be different if we didn't have the advancements we do in terms of pain management. But I still wouldn't try and impose my personal ethics/morals on somebody else.
> 
> I know it's completely anecdotal, but ever since Moo had that hematoma and ended up with a floppy ear, we are constantly battling issues with excess wax and he's had a couple of ear infections (never an issue before).


Izze also got a hematoma on her ear as well, from being kicked by a cow and even though it wasnt all the way floppy, only semi floppy ... it still seemed to get dirtier then the other one.

I also agree with you on asthetics, I have never lied about the fact that I prefer a cropped or docked dog because I like the way it looks, plain and simple, but I would never suggest banning natural dogs because I think all dobes should be cropped and all aussies should be docked, so I would appreciate it if anti cropping and docking people would stop doing that to me.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> I'm going to cut Johnny's next argument off before he bothers to make it:
> 
> S/n is not necessary to benefit dogs as a whole or an individual dog. That's the argument - it's purely for the convenience of the owner, it hurts the dog, and can have long term negative health impacts that cropping/docking don't. Preemptively spaying or neutering when there is no issue is like docking to prevent happy tail or cropping to prevent torn ears.
> 
> ...


LOL that would not cut thin paper with a straight razor.....

So now you are a mind reader as well. Impressive..... 


I have said multiple times on this thread alone that I am not anti spay......

Why would I make the argument above after making this and other statements? 


JohnnyBandit said:


> I THINK people should have the right to crop and dock as they please... And I think people should have the right to spay and neuter as they please.... I am STRONGLY against government regulation of either.....
> 
> 
> Not me...



Lets face it.... 

You are being argumentative with me for the sake of being argumentative...

I do find it amusing.....

FYI, I have a litter that I co bred on the ground right now... Going their homes week after next....
All are going on limited registration and on spay and neuter contracts. With a time period in which it is expected to be done. 

That does not match what you wrote above.....

I have said the following:

1)I am not neutering any more of my dogs. I am iffy on spay but going to suck it up and do it......

2) I have said, I believe that intact dogs are more healthy. I believe that wholeheartedly.... Largely based on my own animals. And each year new studies come out supporting do it...... 

3) I have said it is a matter of convenience..... And it is.... But everyone has to do what works for them... 


But for whatever it is worth.... I liked your post.... It was enjoyable.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Whistlejacket said:


> I don't think anyone said that. What many people have said is they would never do anything to cause their dog pain _unnecessarily_. As it happens, cropping and docking fall into that category because they are cosmetic, i.e. not necessary. Neutering a dog can have downsides too for the individual dog (though in some situations it can help with some behavioural or health issues), but it ALWAYS benefits dogs as a whole, so no, it is not unnecessary and does not compare to cropping and docking.



Actually someone did say exactly that.... And that is when I brought up the spay and neuter thing. 



trayne91 said:


> I do not like ear cropping/tail docking. Unless there is a huge medical benefit your dog is getting from this, then it is purely a cosmetic surgery. Your dog undergoes pain just so he/she can look they way you want them to look, for your own selfish reasons. I could never in a million years put my dog through unnecessary pain on purpose. I could never hurt my dog. It's just plain wrong, in my opinion.


The spay and neuter thing was also brought up earlier in this thread. And I did make comments at that time as well. But I was not the one that brought it up.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I would appreciate it if anti cropping and docking people would stop doing that to me.


No one is doing anything _to_ you or _against_ you. People are trying to do what's best _for_ the dogs. It's different.



JohnnyBandit said:


> Actually someone did say exactly that.... And that is when I brought up the spay and neuter thing.


Nope. Trayne91 specified they would never put their dog through _unnecessary_ pain, so my previous argument applies.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Whistlejacket said:


> Nope. Trayne91 specified they would never put their dog through _unnecessary_ pain, so my previous argument applies.


yep the did....



> I could never hurt my dog.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> yep the did....


No. You are taking the quote out of context. Context: "I could never in a million years put my dog through *unnecessary pain on purpose*. I could never hurt my dog". 
It's really obvious that second sentence was a way to emphasise the fact that they wouldn't do an _unnecessary_ procedure. Trying to twist their words to suit your initial claim doesn't work.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Whistlejacket said:


> No. You are taking the quote out of context. Context: "I could never in a million years put my dog through *unnecessary pain on purpose*. I could never hurt my dog".
> It's really obvious that second sentence was a way to emphasise the fact that they wouldn't do an _unnecessary_ procedure. Trying to twist their words to suit your initial claim doesn't work.


No.... An intact dog can be managed...Spay and neuter is a choice..... 

Nothing out of context from me....


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

OMG if anyone is against cropping and docking, spaying and neutering (which I am not against when applicable and I do believe there is a very real need for it) thats FINE ... BE AGAINST it with your bad self for all I care! Have your opinions and all that! do with your dogs what you please and buy from whoever you want!

My ISSUE arises when those who are against c/d try to make laws and KC rules that affect those who WANT a c/d dog, there should BE no rules or laws! THAT is all I am saying, I am DEFENDING someone's RIGHT to own a natural dog of any breed ... but I am also defending my RIGHT to own a DOCKED OR CROPPED dog of any breed.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I would neuter my males cosmetically because I just do not like the old man saggy testicles and those intact males have the ugliest butt holes ever. It is a testosterone thing. Say what you want but I just do not like it. 

I will say that a good crop looks nice but a hack job is horrible. I am going to use the min pin. These seem to be the dog breed that I see the most with these ugly crops. I think if anything cropping should only be done by a vet and pain meds needs to be prescribed. Some examples:
















The full article http://www.minpin.org/illustrated_standard2.htm

This show a horrible ear crop in my opinion. You can tell that only the tips were taken and the bell was left. I would never want any of my dogs to have one of these crops









on the question about docking Yes a too short of a dock can make a dog have problems. This is also seen in the manx cat. I have owned several manx cat who was born with too short of a tail. These guys are usually euthed and taken out of the breeding program. It was a pain because the cats always had a dirty butt and needed cleaning all the time.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> I would neuter my males cosmetically because I just do not like the old man saggy testicles and those intact males have the ugliest butt holes ever. It is a testosterone thing. Say what you want but I just do not like it.
> 
> I will say that a good crop looks nice but a hack job is horrible. I am going to use the min pin. These seem to be the dog breed that I see the most with these ugly crops. I think if anything cropping should only be done by a vet and pain meds needs to be prescribed. Some examples:
> 
> ...


LOL I said I did not like docked pages ago because and I roughly quote.....

I can skin a deer (I might have said hog) while eating a spam sandwich.... And looking at dog butt holes bother me...


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Manx Syndrome isn't exactly caused by the tail being so short. . .It's a genetic thing. That's more a symptom than a cause. 

So why do some Rott breeders dock them so short? Do they just accept that some pups will be collateral damage? I saw one Rott whose tail was cut so short that when she wagged it just looked like a bug wiggling under the skin. Creepy. I can't think of any other breed whose tails are cut that short so that's why I'm using Rotts as an example.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Manx Syndrome isn't exactly caused by the tail being so short. . .It's a genetic thing. That's more a symptom than a cause.
> 
> So why do some Rott breeders dock them so short? Do they just accept that some pups will be collateral damage? I saw one Rott whose tail was cut so short that when she wagged it just looked like a bug wiggling under the skin. Creepy. I can't think of any other breed whose tails are cut that short so that's why I'm using Rotts as an example.


Means the person that did the cropping did not know what they were doing...


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I was pointing out that if the tail is too short nerve problems occur. The manx cat had no feeling of the dingle berries hanging from the rump. The manx is a genetic thing the rott thing is a man caused disease.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

This is a decent crop...


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> I was pointing out that if the tail is too short nerve problems occur. The manx cat had no feeling of the dingle berries hanging from the rump. The manx is a genetic thing the rott thing is a man caused disease.


the NBT gene is in several breeds (corgis and aussies are just two examples) the problem only arrises when you breed two dominant NBTs together, much like a merle to merle breeding.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

ireth0 said:


> Yep. Also what about mixed breed dogs? How do you know when to crop/dock them or when not to? Why are only purebreds getting the supposed benefits of cropping/docking?
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but yea, I don't feel like my opinion on what looks good or doesn't look good is enough of a reason to put a dog (or any animal for that matter) through surgery just to look the way I like because I like it and I want it and IT'S MY RIGHT DAMMIT.
> 
> Realistically Luna still has a mommy belly, but I'm not going to make her have a tummy tuck because I think it would look better.


Mixed breeds are cropped and docked.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Some people really freak out about mixed breeds being cropped or docked. I've seen it first hand with Hank. 'Why would you dock a MIX? That is so horrible' But yet they're fine with it on traditional breeds.

I don't get it. If it's ok to crop one breed then ethically it should be ok to crop any dog.

What about decorative tattoos and ear piercing? I dunno. Doing things for looks gets a bit tricky for me.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Some people really freak out about mixed breeds being cropped or docked. I've seen it first hand with Hank. 'Why would you dock a MIX? That is so horrible' But yet they're fine with it on traditional breeds.
> 
> I don't get it. If it's ok to crop one breed then ethically it should be ok to crop any dog.
> 
> What about decorative tattoos and ear piercing? I dunno. Doing things for looks gets a bit tricky for me.


100% agree.

I just assumed Hank was a natural bobtail... how can you tell it's been cropped?

He's still cute regardless


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

taquitos said:


> 100% agree.
> 
> I just assumed Hank was a natural bobtail... how can you tell it's been cropped?
> 
> He's still cute regardless


I'm not an expert but if you part his hair at the tip of his tail, no hair grows on the end/it's scarred over. It is part of why I think he might be a 50/50 mix of two often docked breeds. Or maybe his mom was purebred and they docked the puppies because her breed was docked. I'm not sure. I get asked about his tail a lot when I tell people he's a mix.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Some people really freak out about mixed breeds being cropped or docked. I've seen it first hand with Hank. 'Why would you dock a MIX? That is so horrible' But yet they're fine with it on traditional breeds.
> 
> I don't get it. If it's ok to crop one breed then ethically it should be ok to crop any dog.
> 
> What about decorative tattoos and ear piercing? I dunno. Doing things for looks gets a bit tricky for me.


I mean.. if it's better, why aren't we doing it to all flop eared breeds? All flop eared dogs in general?

The only crop/docked mixes I've seen looked MOSTLY like a breed that would normally have it done. I've never seen a true muttly mutt with body modifications.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

ireth0 said:


> I mean.. if it's better, why aren't we doing it to all flop eared breeds? All flop eared dogs in general?


Yeah, because if cutting their ears prevents ear infections or whatever the claim is, why aren't we cropping Bassetts and Cockers, who would be the ones who would benefit most? But if you say that, people flip out. Because TRADITION!!!!, I guess. I'm not fond of doing things because of tradition in general so I don't like it when it comes to dogs either. But at least don't claim it has health benefits if you aren't willing to extend that supposed benefit to all breeds.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, because if cutting their ears prevents ear infections or whatever the claim is, why aren't we cropping Bassetts and Cockers, who would be the ones who would benefit most? But if you say that, people flip out. Because TRADITION!!!!, I guess. I'm not fond of doing things because of tradition in general so I don't like it when it comes to dogs either. But at least don't claim it has health benefits if you aren't willing to extend that supposed benefit to all breeds.


That is fine if you dont ... but someone who DOES should have the right to do so, just like how some people neuter because they dont like how dogs with testicles look, they SHOULD have that right, just like how someone who wants to leave their dog intact should have that right, its THEIR dog, not yours (or anyone elses) and everyone should have the right to have the ddog they want to have, and it that means having a cropped or docked dog, then thats fine.

There is nothing about cropping other than aesthetics, and there is nothing wrong with that!!! docking in some breeds (like JRTS and aussies) is for function. And yes yes, I know there are tailed herding breeds, but the herding a collie, or a BC does is different from the herding an aussie does, hence why they are docked.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> That is fine if you dont ... but someone who DOES should have the right to do so.


I'm confused... what were you referring to in Willowy's post in this bit? Don't or DOES what?

Also as I said a couple pages back, I disagree. To me personal preference of appearance isn't a good enough reason to justify surgically removing/altering body parts. Just because you can (legally) doesn't mean you should. 

Just because it was mentioned above and I'm curious... is giving your dog decorative tattoos or piercings legal? I feel like I remember a case a while back where someone had tattooed their dog and everyone was up in arms about it.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I'm confused... what were you referring to in Willowy's post in this bit? Don't or DOES what?
> 
> Also as I said a couple pages back, I disagree. To me personal preference of appearance isn't a good enough reason to justify surgically removing/altering body parts. Just because you can (legally) doesn't mean you should.
> 
> Just because it was mentioned above and I'm curious... is giving your dog decorative tattoos or piercings legal? I feel like I remember a case a while back where someone had tattooed their dog and everyone was up in arms about it.


That pic that has been floating around FB? that was proven to be fake. I myself dont know why someone would want to tattoo their dog (unless it was a hairless breed or something) because the fur would just grow over it. 

But ears are done (if they are done RIGHT ... and I must reiterate that I am NOT supportive of "home cropping") in a vets office, in sterile conditions under anesthesia. While tattoes are done under similar enviroment, I cant see the ethics of doing a dog because the dog wouldnt be allowed in the tattoo shop (sanitary reasons) so they would likely have to do it at home, which I wouldnt agree with, since the dog wouldnt be able to be put under for it.

so no, comparing this to cropping (which is HEALED by the time the dog goes to its new home, only aftercare is needed to make sure the cartilage goes straight) is not the same thing.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There are dogs and especially cats (the hairless ones) that people have given decorative tattoos to. Is that ok? 

Hank is docked and also tattooed by the way. Obviously his tattoo didn't permanently affect him and by the time I got him it was healed. It's a shelter number, about 3" long. But if someone wanted to tattoo a pattern on their dog's belly or a character or something they liked the look of, is that ok?

Why are certain aesthetic procedures ok and others are not?


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Each breed has it's own desired crop length. A Rottie is supposed to be first knuckle. It is supposed to be just long enough to elongate the topline. These are proper docks for Rotties. 


they also should be able to wag it back and forth, which both of these dogs do. Very happy waggy tails.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Manx Syndrome isn't exactly caused by the tail being so short. . .It's a genetic thing. That's more a symptom than a cause.
> 
> So why do some Rott breeders dock them so short? Do they just accept that some pups will be collateral damage? I saw one Rott whose tail was cut so short that when she wagged it just looked like a bug wiggling under the skin. Creepy. I can't think of any other breed whose tails are cut that short so that's why I'm using Rotts as an example.


Each breed has it's own desired crop length. A Rottie is supposed to be first knuckle. It is supposed to be just long enough to elongate the topline. These are proper docks for Rotties. 


they also should be able to wag it back and forth, which both of these dogs do. Very happy waggy tails.

I know we all have our opinions on this and likely will never agree on it. For me, if you are going to dock a tail, then dock the tail. I should think that just cutting half the tail off would risk more bumps to the tail. I am not sure what the purpose of a half dock is. Just because I don't get it, doesn't make me against it, as long as it is done by someone who truly knows what they are doing and the dog is taken care of afterwards, it is fine by me.e


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I see a lot of "people should be able to do what they want with their dogs!" in this thread. How far does that view extend? Should people be allowed to do _anything_ they want to their dogs? Where is the line, if any?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmm, that length of Rottie tail dock looks like it could carry a risk of neurological damage. Is there a certain percentage of puppies who are damaged? I imagine at least some are. I'd be interested in knowing the numbers.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> There is nothing about cropping other than aesthetics, and there is nothing wrong with that!!!


Some of us happen to think there is, and it will take more to convince us otherwise than an unnecessary amount of exclamation marks. 

Also since the topic has come up, I'm personally completely opposed to piercing a child's ears. Body modifications should be for adults and adults only, period.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Inga said:


> Each breed has it's own desired crop length. A Rottie is supposed to be first knuckle. It is supposed to be just long enough to elongate the topline. These are proper docks for Rotties.
> 
> 
> they also should be able to wag it back and forth, which both of these dogs do. Very happy waggy tails.
> ...


That is interesting! I have always seen rotties docked at the 2nd joint, same with dobies. There is no minimum length for MAS, it just says that the tail "shouldnt exceed 3 inches". Lincoln's is docked at the 2nd joint, I like that the breeder left a little, it makes for a cute wag 

Josefina was a rescue, so I am not sure if she was docked, or is naturally short. I am leaning towards naturally short, because the bone of her tail doesnt feel like a docked tail, there is no blunt end, it kind of grows crooked at the very end and not like someone TRIED to lop it off "at home" either. 

I also think it is kind of silly to say "but where does the line in the sand go?" Because there are cruelty laws in place, you know. And I wasnt saying that even tattooing a hairless animal was RIGHT, I dont. Tattooing and peircing is TOTALLY different from docking and ear cropping, trust me, I have two tattoos and a dogs ears heal MUCH faster than a tattoo does and has far less discomfort. I believe that they use a laser now (someone can correct me if this is wrong) to crop ears and there isnt even a need for stitches anymore (again someone can correct me if I am wrong). But yes, piercing and tattooing a dog for any reason other than identification IMO is wrong and I wouldnt do it personally, but will I go crazy and say someone was a bad owner for doing it? I dont know, there are too many variables if you really look at it: Like, did they do it at a clinic? did they put the dog under for it? did they do the proper aftercare etc ...

For cropping, the dog is PUT UNDER, wakes up, is given pain meds, heals in about a week sometimes even less and then is good to go.

With docking, that is done when the puppy isnt even aware of its environment yet, so I am not sure what the argument is there?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL yea I have several tattoos on various body parts and there's no way I believe they took longer to heal and were more uncomfortable than cutting off part of my ear would be. 

Not saying I think tattoos are hunky dory for pets, just that all else being equal (done under sedation with properly sterilized equipment and aftercare) I don't see how they'd be much different than cropping. At least an argument could be made that a tattoo has some utility for identification purposes.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> LOL yea I have several tattoos on various body parts and there's no way I believe they took longer to heal and were more uncomfortable than cutting off part of my ear would be.
> 
> Not saying I think tattoos are hunky dory for pets, just that all else being equal (done under sedation with properly sterilized equipment and aftercare) I don't see how they'd be much different than cropping. At least an argument could be made that a tattoo has some utility for identification purposes.


There are folks who tattoo dogs and animals for identification reasons. But IF the tattoo was done with all the proper sterilization and under anesthetic, I suppose that would be acceptable but on a hairy creature, I am unsure why someone would want to do it anyway LOL


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> LOL yea I have several tattoos on various body parts and there's no way I believe they took longer to heal and were more uncomfortable than cutting off part of my ear would be.
> 
> Not saying I think tattoos are hunky dory for pets, just that all else being equal (done under sedation with properly sterilized equipment and aftercare) I don't see how they'd be much different than cropping. At least an argument could be made that a tattoo has some utility for identification purposes.


Yep. I agree. I don't see how a tattoo could possibly take longer to heal than actually cutting off part of a dog's body. There's no stitches with a tattoo, no posting, no nothing. You're also not cutting through cartilage with a tattoo. Dogs are also put under for tattoos as well. 

When I got Hank he had gotten his tattoo less than a week before and it looked healed up to me. 

So if I have a Chinese Crested I can put a tattoo on his rump to make him look like a My Little Pony? Everyone is ok with that?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I take issue with your taste in tattoos.


----------



## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> So if I have a Chinese Crested I can put a tattoo on his rump to make him look like a My Little Pony? Everyone is ok with that?


Well, it's less invasive than a crop and definitely much less invasive than a spay/neuter... so if someone tries to tell you it's unethical, you can always whip out that argument ;D


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> I take issue with your taste in tattoos.


But Cresteds look like little Horsies! 

And I would dye him (yes him) pink.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> But Cresteds look like little Horsies!
> 
> And I would dye him (yes him) pink.


Is that wrong to say I think that would be SUPER CUTE?


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Adult dogs are put under for tattoos, not puppies (not if doing the ear clamp)


----------



## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

missc89 said:


> Amaryllis said:
> 
> 
> > There's no real reason to crop anything. It's aesthetic and it should be banned. I know, I know "happy tail", but that's a real medical condition diagnosed by real vets. Anything else is just cutting stuff off because the owner wants the dog to look different.
> ...



I feel like that is a result of poor breeding, or breeding that doesn't take into consideration a healthy tail/spine. Seems like the breeding community spent generations docking instead of breeding for healthy tail conformation.

Doing because the dog could injure it don't its job is one thing. 

Personally I think pit bulls with cropped ears look beautiful, however I would never do it, because its not necessary and therefore unethical.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

We cannot tattoo our dogs now either? 

Most of the dogs I have owned have been tattooed.


----------



## squiggles (Feb 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> We cannot tattoo our dogs now either?
> 
> Most of the dogs I have owned have been tattooed.


That seems more like a necessary identification system. I know that without tattooing I would have know a lot less about horses I've bought and sold, and they might have otherwise ended up sent for meat.


----------



## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Hmm, that length of Rottie tail dock looks like it could carry a risk of neurological damage. Is there a certain percentage of puppies who are damaged? I imagine at least some are. I'd be interested in knowing the numbers.


Could you or someone else elaborate on this?


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

For those who have tattoos on their dog. How would one go about if they found a dog with a tattoo on them? Is that tattoo on a national registry? What numberbers do you use on the tattoo and why that number?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Could you or someone else elaborate on this?


Docking too short can cause nerve damage. Paralysis, fecal incontinence, back-end weakness, etc. I think the show dock on Rotts is too short and wonder how many puppies end up with damage. I'm sure that info isn't available anywhere, though. I've heard anecdotes of people getting a Rott pup who had some damage from docking but I assume most are put down as soon as the damage becomes evident, before going to new homes. So no way to know.

Wow, I was reading a few breeder's websites where they were defending the practices of docking and cropping and the lies! Or maybe ignorance? I suppose that would be more charitable. "It's pain-free"! "Cropping is natural and healthy!" Yikes.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> For those who have tattoos on their dog. How would one go about if they found a dog with a tattoo on them? Is that tattoo on a national registry? What numberbers do you use on the tattoo and why that number?


I have always done it more as a way of proving the dog was mine rather than hoping someone found a dog I lost and returned it to me...

There was a time... Before there was such a thing as identity theft, that I tattooed my social security number on the inner thigh of my dogs.... Now I tattoo the dog's AKC (or if I had UKC registered dogs) registration number... It is no big deal for the dog... Not like a tattoo on a human ( I have four tattoos ) The healing process for the dog is not at all like the healing process for a human. The tattoos are thin lines and I have seen no worse than some redness afterwards.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Docking too short can cause nerve damage. Paralysis, fecal incontinence, back-end weakness, etc. I think the show dock on Rotts is too short and wonder how many puppies end up with damage. I'm sure that info isn't available anywhere, though. I've heard anecdotes of people getting a Rott pup who had some damage from docking but I assume most are put down as soon as the damage becomes evident, before going to new homes. So no way to know.
> 
> Wow, I was reading a few breeder's websites where they were defending the practices of docking and cropping and the lies! Or maybe ignorance? I suppose that would be more charitable. "It's pain-free"! "Cropping is natural and healthy!" Yikes.


But at the first knuckle is not too short... Anyone that causes neurological damage does not know what they are doing. 


A puppy at three days will protest you taking it off momma's nipple more than taking its tail.


----------



## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I was looking at breeder websites and saw this photo, adorable puppy and a cute little tail. Dunno how short JRT tails are supposed to be but it seems okay to me


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

i was not worried about the pain side just the registry side of it. I have seen it done. 

I will say I have never seen or had a breeder bring in a dog because of a tail being docked too short and the side effects. I am sure I would have. We have had breeders bring in pups with cleft palates to be euthed. They can not nor will they do the deed.

It bothers me more to see a miscropped or mis-docked dog than a natural or cropped/docked dog. Rottweilers and JRT are the breeds that get me going.










like the one above


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Sarah~ said:


> I was looking at breeder websites and saw this photo, adorable puppy and a cute little tail. Dunno how short JRT tails are supposed to be but it seems okay to me


A terrier that goes to ground should be docked to the width of a mans hand more or less...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

luv mi pets said:


> i was not worried about the pain side just the registry side of it. I have seen it done.
> 
> I will say I have never seen or had a breeder bring in a dog because of a tail being docked too short and the side effects. I am sure I would have. We have had breeders bring in pups with cleft palates to be euthed. They can not nor will they do the deed.
> 
> ...


there is no unified registry that I know of.
My dogs tattoos are on file with OFA, Optigen, AKC etc... If someone familiar with AKC registration numbers were to see one of my dog's tattoo's it would jump out at them as an AKC registration number.


----------



## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Hmm, that length of Rottie tail dock looks like it could carry a risk of neurological damage. Is there a certain percentage of puppies who are damaged? I imagine at least some are. I'd be interested in knowing the numbers.


I've worked at vet offices for over 11 years now and I've yet to see a Rottweiler with a proper length tail (as shown above) come in with neurological or other physical issues. And I see plenty of byb dogs at my current workplace.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

luv mi pets said:


> i was not worried about the pain side just the registry side of it. I have seen it done.
> 
> I will say I have never seen or had a breeder bring in a dog because of a tail being docked too short and the side effects. I am sure I would have. We have had breeders bring in pups with cleft palates to be euthed. They can not nor will they do the deed.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Moose's tail is that length, but his tail is thick so it doesn't look that weird. Most Rotts I see have that length dock so I was surprised when I saw how short the show docks are. The breeders claim that nobody will buy their pups if they don't dock. . .but if they aren't docking "to standard" I guess I don't see the point.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> A terrier that goes to ground should be docked to the width of a mans hand more or less...


Yep (too short)


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> A puppy at three days will protest you taking it off momma's nipple more than taking its tail.


People keep saying this like it means it doesn't hurt the puppies. OK, what DOES a neonate puppy do when something hurts? There isn't anything they CAN do, just cry a little and go back to nursing. For survival, they need to stick to their mother's teat, pain or not, plus nursing releases endorphins. They can't run away, they can't bite, they can't lick the hurt spot. So, really I'm asking, what response does a neonate puppy have to pain? It's been proven they do feel pain, possibly more intensely than older animals, so don't try to pull that one on me.

Most of the breeder's info I've found (written for breeders, not for customers) warns that the pups will lose condition for a few days after docking. This is also true of farm animals. I don't know why they would lose condition if not distressed in some way.

I also don't think for a second that the majority of people who are docking tails "know what they're doing".


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

So how do you all feel about circumcision? 

Since Zeke has come to live with us, I have come to love his stubby little tail and natural ears. One of his siblings lives with my niece and looks like Dumbo. It's possible her ears should have been cropped, but in general I like natural ears on all dogs.

I will admit that a Doberman with natural ears looks friendly to me and one with cropped ears looks somewhat sinister and formidable. I'm not proud of that illogical prejudice, but there it is.

I've also become aware of how much carnage is caused around the house by Esther's tail. (To my knowledge, Plotts are never docked.) Hers is not so much whip-like as club-like.

My daughter's dog Dante has wonderful ears. Sometimes they're both up, sometimes both down and sometimes it's one of each. They will even rotate slightly to pick up directional sounds. I don't know that he has any voluntary control over them, but they do more to convey his mood than his tail does.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> So how do you all feel about circumcision?


Oh do people circumcise dogs now?   I think people issues and dog issues can't be compared. But, FWIW, I'm against it (for babies. Adults can do whatever body mods they want). Not that I'll ever have the chance to be responsible for some little dude's genitals.


----------



## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Docking too short can cause nerve damage. Paralysis, fecal incontinence, back-end weakness, etc. I think the show dock on Rotts is too short and wonder how many puppies end up with damage. I'm sure that info isn't available anywhere, though. I've heard anecdotes of people getting a Rott pup who had some damage from docking but I assume most are put down as soon as the damage becomes evident, before going to new homes. So no way to know.
> 
> Wow, I was reading a few breeder's websites where they were defending the practices of docking and cropping and the lies! Or maybe ignorance? I suppose that would be more charitable. "It's pain-free"! "Cropping is natural and healthy!" Yikes.



I was hoping for some actual evidence of this in Rottis (or any breed). My Fiance and I are getting on in the future and I've never, ever, ever read about this being a possible issue in the breed. Not even from the breeders who are against docking.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

RonE said:


> I'm not proud of that illogical prejudice, but there it is.


RonE that is said perfectly... I felt like that saying I didn't want to consider any of the pups of the perfectly bred litter from the one litter with outstanding parents "because the older pups left in the litter were not cropped ears . I did fall in love with Abhik's dam more then the other litters dam both sires were males proven to die for you couldn't loose choosing one or the other .. and Abhik was so perfect for me to hold out and wait to see if she would become available as an individual "someone else had spoken for her at the time I saw her:, I would not of gotten a puppy at all, if I could not have Abhik ...


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I was hoping for some actual evidence of this in Rottis (or any breed). My Fiance and I are getting on in the future and I've never, ever, ever read about this being a possible issue in the breed. Not even from the breeders who are against docking.


I found a decent amount of info. Not much time right now but here's one: http://m.veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/133/8/177.abstract
And look up "tail neuroma". Anyway, most of the info is linked to from anti-docking websites and I'm sure you can find them .


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> People keep saying this like it means it doesn't hurt the puppies. OK, what DOES a neonate puppy do when something hurts? There isn't anything they CAN do, just cry a little and go back to nursing. For survival, they need to stick to their mother's teat, pain or not, plus nursing releases endorphins. They can't run away, they can't bite, they can't lick the hurt spot. So, really I'm asking, what response does a neonate puppy have to pain? It's been proven they do feel pain, possibly more intensely than older animals, so don't try to pull that one on me.
> 
> Most of the breeder's info I've found (written for breeders, not for customers) warns that the pups will lose condition for a few days after docking. This is also true of farm animals. I don't know why they would lose condition if not distressed in some way.
> 
> I also don't think for a second that the majority of people who are docking tails "know what they're doing".


Sorry, but I don't believe this.it sounds hokey IMO. My puppy is docked and I know many dogs who are docked and they are awesome dogs, there is another aussie, a rottie, and a corgi that was in my agility class and they didn't seem to miss their tails at all.

I used to think that tails made a difference in sport dogs, but I see now that if the dog never has it, they never know what they lost. How about posting info from NEUTRAL sources? Then maybe I might take it seriously.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm sorry, which part sounds "hokey"? 

I'm not denying that docked dogs can be awesome. Dogs missing a leg or an eye or other body part can be awesome too, but I'm not going to advocate anyone doing that to their dog on purpose. And I don't know what the signs would be of a dog missing his tail so I wouldn't know what to look for. 

If you know of any neutral sources I'd be glad to use them. The AVMA is anti-docking so I guess I can't use any medical info. . .


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I found a decent amount of info. Not much time right now but here's one: http://m.veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/133/8/177.abstract
> And look up "tail neuroma". Anyway, most of the info is linked to from anti-docking websites and I'm sure you can find them .


This is not info...
It is an abstract from a 22 year old article. But no actual data. I requested an email copy of the entire article but thus far all I have gotten was an email linking back to the abstract. 

In any case..... Via the abstract the article focuses on.
_"Observational studies were conducted on referred and first-opinion cases of hormonal urinary incontinence and on referred, confirmed cases of incompetence of the urethral sphincter mechanism. "_

Could this issue happen from docking? I do not know and cannot read the article. 

But post spay incontinence is a common thing in bitches. 

This is not a decent amount of info...It is really no info....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> People keep saying this like it means it doesn't hurt the puppies. OK, what DOES a neonate puppy do when something hurts? There isn't anything they CAN do, just cry a little and go back to nursing. For survival, they need to stick to their mother's teat, pain or not, plus nursing releases endorphins. They can't run away, they can't bite, they can't lick the hurt spot. So, really I'm asking, what response does a neonate puppy have to pain? It's been proven they do feel pain, possibly more intensely than older animals, so don't try to pull that one on me.
> 
> Most of the breeder's info I've found (written for breeders, not for customers) warns that the pups will lose condition for a few days after docking. This is also true of farm animals. I don't know why they would lose condition if not distressed in some way.
> 
> I also don't think for a second that the majority of people who are docking tails "know what they're doing".


Have you been around many neonate puppies? 

You KNOW when one is in pain.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RonE said:


> So how do you all feel about circumcision?
> 
> Since Zeke has come to live with us, I have come to love his stubby little tail and natural ears. One of his siblings lives with my niece and looks like Dumbo. It's possible her ears should have been cropped, but in general I like natural ears on all dogs.
> 
> ...


I do not think it is illogical.... I am afraid to fly because I see the result of a plane crash on TV.... I think about what I saw while I fly....

Think about dogs.... A large percentage of serious formidable dogs either have natural prick ears or are cropped.
GSD, Bel Mals, etc. Dobes, Beaucerons, etc are cropped. 

Then think of the uber friendly dogs.... Labs, Goldens, Beagles, etc. Floppy ears....

And whether we realize it or not... Most of us, even non dog savvy people, learn and understand dog body language. Upright forward ears mean an alert state and matched with other body language can mean well past alert. 

Not hard for the brain to make that association.

As for circumcision. I assume you are talkin human male circumcision..... I have no issue with it. It fits strongly into the culture and or religious beliefs of many and is done at different times in life in different cultures. 

It is not a big deal. 

While there is a drop in infant circumcisions in the United States, and that trend has been going on since the 1980's there is a sharp rise in adult circumcisions as well. Many of those 1980's babies are grown up and are deciding to get it done.


----------



## Beta Man (Apr 2, 2015)

Docked but did not crop my Doberman.

Cropped but did not dock my Dogo

Circumsiced my son

My daughter is currently "natural" 



I think I've covered all the bases!!!!


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Beta Man said:


> Docked but did not crop my Doberman.
> 
> Cropped but did not dock my Dogo
> 
> ...


Give her time, she will likely want pierced ears at the very least.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I'm sorry, which part sounds "hokey"?
> 
> I'm not denying that docked dogs can be awesome. Dogs missing a leg or an eye or other body part can be awesome too, but I'm not going to advocate anyone doing that to their dog on purpose. And I don't know what the signs would be of a dog missing his tail so I wouldn't know what to look for.
> 
> If you know of any neutral sources I'd be glad to use them. The AVMA is anti-docking so I guess I can't use any medical info. . .


they say docked dogs cant maneuver as well as their tailed counterparts, while I havent seen that, I HAVE seen the difference removing the dew claws makes with dogs, Lincoln slips a lot more than Josefina, and its not because of his tail (they both have short tails), I believe its because Josefina has dews and Lincoln doesnt.

That being said, I can work around no dew claws, I would prefer my dog to have had them left on, but it wasnt a deal breaker for me, and Lincoln's breder was so great about everything else, that I figured if that was the only thing off, then I could just deal with it.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

for the record. i find circumcision of babies to be sick and selfish on the part of the parents. the side effects are many more than in cropping dogs.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kayota said:


> for the record. i find circumcision of babies to be sick and selfish on the part of the parents. the side effects are many more than in cropping dogs.


What side effects?


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Circumcision in a way is like docking/cropping. Some parents do it because the parent thinks that is what is supposed to be done. Other parents do not do it because they believe that is what is supposed to be done. Some parents do not do it because of religious beliefs. Other parents do it because of religious beliefs. Some parents do circumcised their infant because of tradition, other parents do not because they want to buck the tradition. Some infants do not get circumcised as infants but because of a medical/injury must be circumcised as adults. The biggest difference is one can be seen by the public and the other can not.


----------

