# We did It. First dog in a long time :-) Pit-Chow/Lab-Black Mouth Cur Mud



## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Hy folks.

My husband and I decided about 3 weeks ago to get a puppy, it was a decision we made after thinking about it for about 6 month (at least).

Boogies Dad is a Pit-Chow mix and her mum a Lab-Black Cur, so far we are doing really good. Boogie has a kennel next to our chicken coop, its about 6ftx12ft big, where she spends time when the chichens are in the yard, somewhat about 5hrs a day...

And yes of course she has some toys and chews and water. Right now she does not get fed in the kennel, she comes up to our porch for her meals, and she sleeps on or under the porch during the night. She is 12 weeks old now and about 15lbs.

She will not be an inside dog at all ;-) So far she learned "sit" and "come" of course not flawless but pretty good.

I would like to know maybe from a Chowowner how to deal with the hardheadedness. I know pits tend to be hardheaded too so I understand we have our work cut out for us but I am not afraid of the challenge. And I also understand that the Black Cur might be coming through with the hunting" instincts.

I would love to hear some insights ;-)

Anna


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Pit bulls are not usually considered "hard headed"-- excepting in the very literal sense of their thick skulls that have a tendency to whomp you in the nose or chin when the dog goes in for kisses. They are generally emotionally soft dogs who crave human company and respond well to positive reinforcement training (rewarding with treats or toys). Because they desire a strong bond with their humans, they often are miserable as outdoor-only dogs which can lead to misbehavior like excessive barking, digging or escape attempts.

Pit bulls are terriers so they generally have plenty of prey drive just like curs. They often will go after squirrels, birds, rabbits and cats. 

Labs are also people oriented and don't tend to do well as outside-only dogs. 

Chows, particularly those from backyard breeders, can be less than friendly dogs towards people. You'll want to socialize the puppy with new people and places regularly (good experiences only! Don't toss into the deep end so to speak) and keep up the socializing after she's a young adult too.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Is there any particular reason she's not going to be an indoor dog? I can't personally grasp the reason one would have a companion dog that lives outdoors.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

I know the Mother of Boogie shes mellow and super sweet. I don't know her dad, I wouldn't assume he's mean but you never know...

We certrainly will work with her and her needs. Boogie loves the ponies and horses, shes not allowed to be around them without a leash because she doesn't quite understand yet that hoofs can be dangerous but she is doing really good with being along us during the farm work. The goats right now scare her for some reason. And as I said shes not around the chickens. other than next to them in her kennel. I don't want to spark a "playful" lets-fetch the chicken. I in particular spend about 10hrs a day outside so Boogie is with me a lot...even her "lock up" most of the time is broken up into about 1hrs periods. So she gets a lot of bonding time.

The reason why she won't be an inside dog is my husband. He grew up on the same farm as we live now and there is just no such thing as an INSIDE-Dog. I am not gonna argue with him over that. 

We have about 6 different dogs in a close range and her mom lives about 1 mile down the road. I will try to take her to town to a puppy group to get her enough social time with other dogs and puppies ;-)


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Tiany said:


> The reason why she won't be an inside dog is my husband. He grew up on the same farm as we live now and there is just no such thing as an INSIDE-Dog. I am not gonna argue with him over that.


To each their own, but keeping a mix of very social dogs (Labs and Pits) outside without company is just... It's not great planning and shows a lack of forethought about which breeds are suitable to outdoor living. A non-working dog is a companion animal, and companion animals have been bred for centuries for companionship. Relegating an animal specifically bred to enjoy being around people to living outside, where people frequently aren't, is really unacceptable in my book, but my book isn't the one that counts here.

Not sure where you live, but please make sure there's a contingency plan and somewhere your dog will be safe in the case of a tornado, hurricane, flooding, heavy storms, etc. Also, you'll probably need to keep her on heartworm, tick and flea preventative year round.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Hiraeth said:


> To each their own, but keeping a mix of very social dogs (Labs and Pits) outside without company is just... It's not great planning and shows a lack of forethought about which breeds are suitable to outdoor living. A non-working dog is a companion animal, and companion animals have been bred for centuries for companionship. Relegating an animal specifically bred to enjoy being around people to living outside, where people frequently aren't, is really unacceptable in my book, but my book isn't the one that counts here.
> 
> Not sure where you live, but please make sure there's a contingency plan and somewhere your dog will be safe in the case of a tornado, hurricane, flooding, heavy storms, etc. Also, you'll probably need to keep her on heartworm, tick and flea preventative year round.


If a hurricane comes threw (we live in south alabama but about 45miles from the gulf) she of course will be inside or in the underground shelter we have. Heartworm tick and flee prevention will be a must even if she would be an inside dog since we spend most our day outside ;-)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

It does help some that you will be outside extensively. That changes the picture a bit about "outside only" however, consider that quiet time spend with your dog is important too. Not just the dog tagging along with you as you do farm work, but one-on-one interaction which includes leash walking but also just cuddling up while you read a book or watch TV.

One solution I have heard of from people who have a disagreement with a spouse or parent about having dogs indoors is to set up a recreation room aka man cave in the garage or an outbuilding which has heating and air conditioning (as appropriate for the local climate) and spend time there with the dog when its evening times or non-farm work times and the dog can sleep indoors there in a location that is safe from the elements of weather and wild animals. 
If you have a full barn for the horses rather than just a run-in shed, you could maybe convert a stall to a dog kennel or set up something comfy in a part of a tack room. When one of my friends still owned her horse farm, her border collies and beagle mutt spent their days either loose with her on the farm or inside horse stall but nights were spent safely enclosed in the heated (in the winter) "office" space of the barn which meant that storms, snow, ice etc weren't putting them in danger.

Sleeping on or under a porch isn't really a good option for keeping a dog safe.

Be aware that you may never be able to fully train her to be safe off-leash around the horses. Every dog is different- not just by breed type but as individuals-- and of course some horses are a lot less tolerant of annoying dogs too.

As far as training goes, my suggestions for reading materials and internet sources--
"The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller
"On Talking Terms With Dogs - Calming Signals" by Turid Rugaas
"Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell
"Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson

As well as the websites and blog posts by those trainers mentioned above plus those by Denise Fenzi, Susan Garrett, Dr. Sophia Yin, Dr. Ian Dunbar and for fun and useful training videos on YouTube, check out kikopup and Zak George (some people are turned off by Zak's video style but there's some good tips in there)


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Right now our "alone time" consits of walking/driving the fence line for about 3hrs a day (minimum) I have to check our fence line daily right now since we had problems ;-) and that does not mean I am working 3 hours...I probably could do it in 1 hour, but with boogie together we go check out the creek play in it, walk on the leash, cuddle under a big oak tree stuff like that ;-) so we take our time doing that and in the afternoon we go check out the horses do some more cuddeling and playing. I have one horse thats about 21years and she is as calm as can be, I will use her to get boogie used to those big creatures ;-) as I said she is scared of the goats which right now is good since one of our billygoats is a pain in the butt and trys to headbutt everything and everybody right now, for some reason. Boogie even when she is alone in the yard can go and look at most of the animals but cant get to them since we have a chainlinks fence around the yard with gates.

I am trying to give her about the best time she can get. I make sure while she is in her kennel that she goes in there somewhat tired.I spend about 2hrs a day working with one horse, training and riding it, thats really the only time boogie cant be with me. And I think 2hrs in the kennel by herself is an appropriate time. My husband works with her too and loves on her in the evening time while we are sitting, hanging out. So she gets to be with us a lot. 

I hope alabama will never freeze...people will die if that happens ;-)


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I will never understand this kind of outside dog. It's not a LGD, it's not a musher it's just a poor puppy stuck outside. WHY bother having a dog if it's going to be outside? Yes I read about your husband but outside of that's what he's had, outside dogs, WHY? Dogs are pack animals; you are their pack. They need to be inside with you unless they're one of the types of dogs I mentioned.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Ok...

I just did some quick research on all 4 breeds that are in my dog..i will highlight the for me applicable lines ;-)
I quote form Wikipedidia

Black Mouth Curs are great family dogs. They are very social dogs if trained properly. The BMC is an "extremely smart"[1] breed who "by nature need to bond a few weeks"[1] with their owner/trainer before training can begin. They are also very sensitive dogs that are very attune to their master's voice and should never be yelled at in anger or spanked. BMC's make good family dogs as long as they have access to at least an acre of yard and can access it throughout the day. This dog will not be happy spending the day on the couch alone. They are very social dogs and need a human companion and daily routines where they are allowed to sprint. These are not couch dogs and must have access to several hours of exercise daily to avoid anxiety and depression."The BMC was bred as a homestead dog that would protect its family and home against intruders. <== hard to protect from the inside.

Most commonly kept as pets, Chow Chows tend to display discernment of strangers and can become fiercely protective of their owners and property.(..) 
Chow Chow are not excessively active, meaning that they can be housed in an apartment. However, a Chow Chow living in an apartment will need daily exercise to prevent restlessness and boredom.
<== also in my point of few outside dogs...used former as guardians for temples in china and Mongolia...

In the early 20th century pit bulls were used as catch dogs in America for semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt, and drive livestock, and as family companions
<= anyone ever driven cattle inside?? 

I am not gonna post anything about the lab in my dog because I in my eyes have 3 strong breeds in one dog that have potential to love the outside. I know not many of yall agree with the decision to have an outside dog, but I think that she will be just fine. I am pretty sure she gets more exercise and attention than other dogs and will have a "job" later on. I know a lot of dog owners that leave their dogs at home alone 8hrs+ when they have to go to work. My husband typically goes to bed around midnight, and before that he checks everything on the farm and hangs out with Boogie for awhile. I get up around 6...so technically shes "alone" for 6hrs.The first thing she gets in the morning is attention and a bunch of fun stuff to look,sniff or play with.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Tiany said:


> Ok...
> 
> I just did some quick research on all 4 breeds that are in my dog..i will highlight the for me applicable lines ;-)
> I quote form Wikipedidia
> ...


There are a few problems with this information. First of all, it's Googled, and Googling will find you accurate information along with a ton of misinformation. If you Google my breed, you will be told that they're anywhere from couch potatoes to very active dogs and that they're anywhere from non aggressive to very aggressive. They were also used to hunt boars. Hundreds of years ago. Just like Pit Bulls were used to hunt and drive livestock. A hundred years ago. A century of breeding out certain characteristics and breeding in certain characteristics can drastically change a breed. I don't know a single Great Dane that hunts boars (or could). I don't know a single Pit Bull that drives livestock. That is their HISTORICAL use, not the current state of most of the members of their breed.

Also, you can't exclude information on a Lab (which I'm sure you've done because they're noted as very people oriented and friendly and dependent upon interaction) just because it doesn't support your case. Your dog is a mix. Which means it could end up having 90% Lab attributes, and 10% all of the other breeds. Or 10% Lab and 90% all of the other breeds. And you won't know what breeds come out (or don't come out) in your dog's personality until you're into adolescence.

My biggest concern with outdoor dogs are safety. Realistically, it's just not as safe outside as it is in your home. Predators, theft and poison are all dangers that your dog will face on a daily basis. Indoor dogs face those threats too, but not to the degree of a dog who is outside 24/7. Plus, this is a puppy. This is not an adult dog. She is barely out of her infancy and she is being kept in unsafe conditions. At the bare minimum, she should sleep in her kennel (and it should be made safe from predators) during the night until she's of an age that she could defend herself from a threat until you could come to her aid.

And just as a caution, I'm not sure how much you're walking, but 11 week old puppies have very sensitive joints and cannot withstand prolonged periods of forced activity. Forced activity meaning walking on a leash, or being forced to walk to follow someone, etc. They need to be able to self regulate, switch their gait and lay down. If forced exercise is taking place, you could be doing some severe damage to her joints. So when she's walking the fence line with you, make sure to keep an eye out for when she lags behind and make sure you're not forcing her to keep up.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

One thing that we don't face is theft or poisoning thru a person. We live on 160acres with ONE road in and out, and a gate at the front. And roughly around 20-30ft pine trees and brush all around us. So if somebody "breaks in" the dog won't have a problem but the person trespassing. ;-)

I also drive the fence line in a side by side so boogie walks a little drives a while and so on and so forth. She gets play,ob and walk time fairly evenly distributed.

Our yard is fenced in so she can't get out by herself unless she wants to dig under about 3ft of concrete in the ground...we built the fence before we even wanted a dog to make sure no coyotes or stuff like that can get in. As far as I am concerned our yard is about as safe as it gets, we don't live in the city or the suburbs so a lot of stuff gets eliminated by that.

If something would happen, well honestly that's life. Had a calf struck by lightning one time while they were on the way back to the barn, it just happens. Our house in the summer is just as warm as the outside since we don't run the AC that much,because 85% of our time is spend outside. Once Hunting season comes around my husband will be out even more. 

Quite frankly I am glad I don't have to teach Boogie inside manners, she has enough to learn outside. Plus I really enjoy that once I am in the house there is no distraction. I can focus on my husband and my household. We both dedicated our life to our farm, and it's hard work, Boogie certainly makes our family complete and will be a wonderful part of our family but there is just no reason for her to come inside. A screened in porch, a kennel and a underground tornado/hurricane shelter will be absolutely appropriate for her.

By now she already knows a little bit about our daily routine and she is happy as she can be, putting on weight according to the growth chart, she does great when I give her shots (yes I do it myself, i do it with all our farm animals) and being wormed. She could have ended up in a SHELTER or in somebody who wants to let her fight, but now she only has to face a comfortable life outside.


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## Affirmed (Jul 6, 2016)

I grew up with our dogs outside on the farm-that's how it was. Honestly I'll never do it again, though. Our dogs didn't get the life that my current inside dogs get. However, I know you've made your mind up so some advice:
Heartworms are a huge killer, I don't care where you live or how cold it is - it WILL happen. We had 3 get it at once, 2 made it.
Predators- a dog is not enough for a pack of coyotes. A pack of dogs might be, but there is still a lot that can go wrong with so much land to roam.
Where do these dogs sleep at night? Why not make them a shelter like you would livestock? Even my fowl and poultry get put up every night. Also heating and cooling would be nice.
Lastly, I know if you work livestock then you know how to give shots - stay on top of all shots, especially rabies given their environment.
As for the breeds involved - prepare for a strong willed and dominant dog. I imagine she'll be sweet with you but strangers shouldn't be left unattended. She'll likely have a heck of a prey drive so watch her around small stock. Labs are great family dogs and pits can be too, but that chow and cur is what's gonna give you issues. Also, CHEWING- if she takes after a lab she'll chew for over a year. This dog is going to need a job, for the love of all that's holy, don't put her in a pen and leave her there. Lastly, she sounds too young to be alone outside. Her mom isn't there to raise her, you'll have to. Please make sure all the dogs get plenty of love and attention, it's what they want most and even though they are just a moment in our life, we are their entire life - so make it a good one.


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## crysania (Oct 1, 2010)

Dogs are social. They do not belong outdoors in enclosures away from their family. I see no way that this is a good life for a dog. And the "oh well if something happens it happens" is not exactly an approach that makes me think that you should even have a dog. I would do ANYTHING to protect my dogs. ANYTHING. This puppy does not deserve this life.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm solidly in camp "inside dog". That said, I have always lived on and around farms and it's not at all uncommon to have outside dogs that live happy and fulfilled lives and can be just as healthy and joyful as their in-house counterparts. It sounds like the basic needs (any beyond) of this dog are being met: she has security, shelter, attention, love, food/water, etc. Many people that have inside dogs don't even spend half as much time with their dogs as the OP indicates she does with hers. So while on the surface, I'd be singing in the chorus with y'all, in this case I'd almost just take a step back, climb off the soapbox of judgment, and I don't know... actually HELP? I don't think this is a case where anyone will change the mind of the OP on this.

It seems like the prey drive might be your biggest challenge, or one of them at least, so I'd work on any training that reinforces impulse control. But just know that it is entirely possible that you'll never be able to fully trust the dog around your chickens or other small fast moving animals. Intro-training with the gentle old mare sounds like a great start to get your new pup comfortable around other livestock. Otherwise it sounds like you're doing things right insofar as you're introducing her to your farm life and not overtaxing her little puppy bones. Just give lots of love and attention, make training a priority, and enjoy your buddy.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Yeah, I'm agreeing with TGKvr here. TIME spent with the dog is key once physical security needs are met. "Outside dog" all too often means either dog in a suburban backyard doing nothing or dog on a farm running totally loose and lacking attention. 

Make sure that rabies vaccine is done by a licensed vet at the required age and kept up meticulously over the years as ONLY a rabies vaccine from a vet counts legally. All other vaccines are legally optional but rabies is not and you do NOT want your dog to tangle with a wild animal if she doesn't have up-to-date rabies. (Another reason she should be secured in a covered kennel or a horse stall or even better- an actual indoor room-- at night and when not supervised directly)


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

They are pretty much forcing you down here in Alabama to be up to date with rabies. Boogie was in her kennel (6x12ft) last night because we saw a skunk larking around in the woods. We set out 6 or 7 traps in the remote area and got it. So the sknuk is gone. We have Game-Cams watching over the yard. Most we see is a rabbit or sometimes a mouse ;-),My husband checks the game-cams everyday,because we had a bear issue about a year ago. So if anything gets close to our yard we will know about it. Oh she hated the kennel (and no she was suffering and she was just upset because she had no running space ;-)), couldn't wait to get out and roam around and take a nap on the porch. 

The prey drive is something i absolutely take in consideration. Birds are just hard for dogs to understand ;-) she doesn't need to be around the chickens without supervision. Right now I walk her on a leash and let her sniff at the chicken. As soon as there is a sign that she wants to play/hunt there is a firm "NO" and a little pop on the leash. She is getting better and better. Every morning when we go feed the animals she already automatically sits down in front of horse stalls and waits for me if I have to go in. I understand that there will be the phase where she won't care about any of it. I go thru that with horses and my goats all the time ;-)

@ crysania 
I disagree. She could have ended up in a SHELTER. Or with Inside people that go to work for 8hrs a day and lock her up in a small kennel inside. Not every inside dog has a perfect life and not every farm dog has. And excuse me that I am a little bit more "though" when it comes to "life happens" We had a calf struck by lightning in the middle of a nice day, its just life on a farm. I would do anything to protect my livestock and my dog no matter what. But sometimes even when you do everything right "life happens" 

I am glad that some people here try to help. Most hunters around here have outside dogs and they are all as happy as can be. So as long as she is willing,tailwaging and happy there is no reason for me to over turn my decision.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I wish I could get an answer to the WHY have dogs if they're going to be outside dogs (and not LGD's etc)


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

What's worse: having an outside dog that you spend most of your day with, that offers love and affection and companionship, OR... living a dog-less life?

Seems like a no-brainer to me. If all of the needs of the dog are being met, and I mean beyond the basic needs, then who cares? If the dog is not being treated cruelly, or living on a chain, or being left to their own devices... then who cares? Who are you to judge? Every dog and every family is different. What works for one may not work for the other. All that matters is that the dog is loved and well cared for.

An outside dog as described above sounds like it will have a far happier life than the inside dog that was bought by a family that ignores their pet and never walks him, lets him pee/poop in the house... etc. And let's not forget that there are huge environmental differences as well. The guy who has his dog on a chain outside in his yard is not like the people that have hundreds of acres, secure fencing, security cameras, and kennels.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

@InkedMarie
I have one dog...never said we had multiple.

WHY she is an outside dog although she is not a LGD? Well, she still won't be a tiny dog. her mum is around 40-50lbs and her dad a little bigger (as far I know). its never really cold in alabama. WE spend most our time outside or on the porch(like right now). I think a dog does adept to its surroundings. She doesnt care if shes a Mutt or a LGD.

I see no reason what so ever why she should be inside while we are outside most of the day. plus my time inside the house is very precious to me. I like to be able to give my husband and me undivided attention once we get done working. Boogie gets a lot of attention from both of us outside. We are trying to live our marriage as close as possible as the bible commends us. *So the ABSOLUTE* why we won't have an inside dog is my husband. He told me he doesn't want an inside dog and I obey his decision because I trust his judgment. And yes that might be a different lifestyle than a lot of people can imagine but it's a life and belief we chose and I am living a happy and fulfilled life with a dog that gets as much attention as all our other livestock and even more due to her age and training.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Speaking only for myself, I'd never have a 100% outside dog unless I end up getting Pyr to watch my hypothetical future horses and cattle (still probably 5 years out from that possibility). I enjoy cuddling and snuggling with my dog... she sleeps with me and gives me kisses and affection when my other half is traveling out of town. She's my buddy and I just couldn't handle not having my dog at my side ALL the time.

But that's me. I've known a lot of unhappy outside dogs (heck I'm about to call A.C. on a "friend"'s dog because he's tethered outside all day every day). But I've known a lot MORE happy outside dogs in my life. Maybe it's a product of growing up on farms all my life but it's not unusual and it's not cruel. CAN it be? Sure. But to assume that any dog that lives outside is automatically some poor deprived mistreated soul is a pretty wide swing and a miss.

Now the guy here that had an older dog that lived inside all her life and wanted to put her outside on a chain? Unacceptable. But totally different.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

This is my "unhappy" dog




TGKvr said:


> Speaking only for myself, I'd never have a 100% outside dog unless I end up getting Pyr to watch my hypothetical future horses and cattle (still probably 5 years out from that possibility). I enjoy cuddling and snuggling with my dog... she sleeps with me and gives me kisses and affection when my other half is traveling out of town. She's my buddy and I just couldn't handle not having my dog at my side ALL the time.
> 
> But that's me. I've known a lot of unhappy outside dogs (heck I'm about to call A.C. on a "friend"'s dog because he's tethered outside all day every day). But I've known a lot MORE happy outside dogs in my life. Maybe it's a product of growing up on farms all my life but it's not unusual and it's not cruel. CAN it be? Sure. But to assume that any dog that lives outside is automatically some poor deprived mistreated soul is a pretty wide swing and a miss.
> 
> Now the guy here that had an older dog that lived inside all her life and wanted to put her outside on a chain? Unacceptable.  But totally different.


I agree with you to make an inside dog an outside dog all of a sudden does not work at all. I would call A.C too. For us it's important that all our animals are well taken care off whether that means staying up and out in the pasture with our heifers that are going into labor or fixing a chickens broken leg or wing. Living on a farm is just very different than a suburban area. We are fixing to buy some more acres this fall that are attached to our land already to give our cattle more grassing land, we have jersy milk cows and Dexters. We take a lot of pride in our growing farm, my horses are just as important to us. Once Boogie will be an adult she hopefully will learn to run or walk next to a horse on a leash or off leash, since some of our land is easier to reach (and its more fun) on a horse.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> Quite frankly I am glad I don't have to teach Boogie inside manners, she has enough to learn outside.


Even with outside dogs, I still HIGHLY suggest teaching them a few "inside" manners. Namely, getting them at least OK with a crate and basic potty training. That's one reason that using a garage or barn office or similar as a "home base" is useful-- aside from the weather protection-- because it resembles indoors differently than a chain link kennel does.

Reasons why-- 

you never know if the dog will require an overnight or multi-day vet stay in an indoor kennel and a dog that has only been outdoors will find that extremely stressful. So stressful that it can prevent or majorly delay recovery

you never know if you will end up moving or having to keep the dog indoors for some reason. For example, my friend used to have her dogs on the horse farm and they were sorta-outside dogs but she sometimes took them home overnight. When her mother's health required selling the farm and the dogs became full time indoor dogs in a townhouse (no yard even), they adapted quickly and with less stress than if they hadn't been trained inside too.

if the dog's health or behavior changes and requires being indoors for her safety and security. For example, my dog Chester is well on the mend from tearing his ACL but there is no way he could have recovered suitably being outside. He needed strict confinement and leash walks for the first 8 week and especially the first 3 weeks when he had stitches and an open wound would not have been safe/sanitary for him to be outside, even in a kennel.

During her heats (unless she is spayed) she should definitely not be outside. Dogs can and will jump fences, break down fences or mate through fences to get to a female in heat.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

I am crate training her and she is potty trained so far as she uses only one designate spot in the yard under a tree ;-)

She will be spayed, I don't want to get involved in baby business ;-)

And she certainly starts to understand her kennel better and better. She is in a small crate about 10min at the time now 4-5 times a day, not because i need her in there but she need to learn since she will be in a creat in our pick up if we have to take her to the vet or hunting.

With inside manners I ment "stay of the couch" "quit begging for food while eat" etc. "get off the bed"


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tiany said:


> I am crate training her and she is potty trained so far as she uses only one designate spot in the yard under a tree ;-)
> 
> She will be spayed, I don't want to get involved in baby business ;-)
> 
> ...


Sounds like a plan. Basically, the idea is to make sure the dog will be comfortable and confident as possible no matter what the twists and turns of life throw at her. 

Although, teaching not to beg for food comes in handy for picnics and trail rides too


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Growing up, we had this little terrier mutt we rescued (slated to be euthed that very day). He was such a plucky little dog... Anyway, he was allowed inside but he preferred being outside. It was actually pretty hard to keep him inside for any length of time since he'd cry and scratch to go out. Even at night he preferred sleeping on the porch. I suspect it has to do with his former life, which of course we never knew about. But his favorite thing in the world was running along with us on trail rides. Every morning he'd walk the rounds with us, feeding, riding, whatever. I have very fond memories of that dog and one of the few small dogs I've loved unreservedly.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

I see this is going absolutely nowhere, and I feel that you'll probably leave the forum in a huff before you'll even consider opening your mind to letting your dog sleep in the house at night, but I'm going to add to the masses. The dog should be allowed inside. I hope you'll work on your husband towards letting her indoors at least over night or setting her up something in the barn at a bare minimum.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

I will not "work" on my husband what so ever.If he wants to over turn his decision that's alright but I will not "work" on him.He ain't a car or a tool or a craft project. She has access to the barn in the during the night time. So she can go inside there if she wants too. She chooses to sleep on the screened in porch.

I have no reason to leave the forum, why would I because people disagree with me? Pff, i am way passed getting upset with people over that. I have my opinion for a reason and I will stand with it. If I would back down and crumble over people telling me I am doing the "wrong" thing I would be a bad pack leader for my dog.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

As someone married probably longer than you've been alive, I'll skip commenting more. I don't do the obey thing very well. We're a partnership. Good luck to you.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Tiany said:


> I will not "work" on my husband what so ever.If he wants to over turn his decision that's alright but I will not "work" on him.He ain't a car or a tool or a craft project. She has access to the barn in the during the night time. So she can go inside there if she wants too. She chooses to sleep on the screened in porch.
> 
> I have no reason to leave the forum, why would I because people disagree with me? Pff, i am way passed getting upset with people over that. I have my opinion for a reason and I will stand with it. If I would back down and crumble over people telling me I am doing the "wrong" thing I would be a bad pack leader for my dog.


The concept of "pack leader" in terms of dog and human relationships has been pretty well debunked by science. 

If you read into the trainers and behaviorists that I referenced earlier in the thread, you'll find some good up-to-date information on how dogs learn and interact with other dogs and with humans. 

It is also important to consider that like a small child, she doesn't always know what is best/safest for her, so where she "chooses" to sleep or "chooses" to go during the day means little in terms of where she actually _should_ be during that time. 



> If he wants to over turn his decision


Sounds a lot like dealing with parole board



InkedMarie said:


> As someone married probably longer than you've been alive, I'll skip commenting more. I don't do the obey thing very well. *We're a partnership.* Good luck to you.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Aw she's a cutie.


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## Affirmed (Jul 6, 2016)

InkedMarie said:


> As someone married probably longer than you've been alive, I'll skip commenting more. I don't do the obey thing very well. We're a partnership. Good luck to you.


Finally someone said it lol.


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## crysania (Oct 1, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> I wish I could get an answer to the WHY have dogs if they're going to be outside dogs (and not LGD's etc)


You and me both. I find it worrisome when someone says "And then I get to escape inside and have peace!" Yikes.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

crysania said:


> You and me both. I find it worrisome when someone says "And then I get to escape inside and have peace!" Yikes.


I think that was the cause of the initial reaction. Like somehow a dog is a nuisance that you get to lock outdoors and "escape". 

Some people view dogs as animals that can be locked away and escaped. And some view them as family and put the dog's needs above their own.

Most of the people on this forum are part of the latter group. OP happens to be of the former. And those two groups of people often don't see eye to eye.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Maybe it's just me, but inside on the couch with my dog cuddled up is where I find my peace.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

This is one of those gotten out of hand campaigns ...... you can't compare OP's environment lifestyle with a family dog left 24/ 7 chained in the backyard.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> This is one of those gotten out of hand campaigns ...... you can't compare OP's environment lifestyle with a family dog left 24/ 7 chained in the backyard.


I did not.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> I did not.


ireth0 i agree you did not !!!! it was ment for the thread as a whole... it didn't need to respond using the last comment in the thread.. will change it because it doesn't look right using it... sorry


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Tiany said:


> Oh dear.
> I just came back from my morning chores and guess what, my dog and I had a great time. She's having her breakfast and by the time I get back out there (30-40min) from now she's either happy to go with me to the horses or she's takeing a nap. I don't see the big problem with me not haveing an inside dog.
> 
> And anyone who wants to comment on my marriage go ahead. I am not a 19 year old that got married after high school. I went to get my degrees first. So I am 28, got my masters 2 years ago and I grew up in Europe which gives me per-se a different mind set. So go ahead and dodge on my marriage, my beliefs and my dog. It's fairly amusing to me. I take my life serious and I take the well being of my husband and our farm (all animals included) extremely serious.
> The choice to follow God's word is a personal one and I think it's the right one, if I would start to get insecure over a couple of forum posts I would have to ask myself a lot of questions.


I totally respect people's religious preferences and choices. However, I don't see what God's word has to do with you keeping your dog inside our outside and I'm not sure why you keep bringing it up. Your religious beliefs and the following of God's word (and whether the rest of us do or not) and is not relevant to whether a dog lives inside or outside. 



ireth0 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but inside on the couch with my dog cuddled up is where I find my peace.


Same here. I don't think every dog who lives outside is abused or suffering from cruelty. I do think, given a choice, a *vast* majority of puppies (and dogs) would choose to be wherever their owners are at any given time, whether that be inside or outside.

So is the puppy going to be fine? Yeah, probably. Is she going to lead a deprived life? No, I suppose not. Is she going to lead the happiest life she could possibly lead? No, probably not. Because her people lock her outside so they can "escape inside and have peace". 

And to me, that's sad and not how I prefer to see puppies (or adult dogs) treated.


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## crysania (Oct 1, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> Maybe it's just me, but inside on the couch with my dog cuddled up is where I find my peace.


It's not just you! That's my favorite time of day. I love coming inside and cuddling with my dogs (even if one of the ridiculous creatures thinks sitting on me is a great idea). n


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

crysania said:


> It's not just you! That's my favorite time of day. I love coming inside and cuddling with my dogs (even if one of the ridiculous creatures thinks sitting on me is a great idea). n


Sitting on me is the -only- idea!


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## crysania (Oct 1, 2010)

PatriciafromCO said:


> This is one of those gotten out of hand campaigns ...... you can't compare OP's environment lifestyle with a family dog left 24/ 7 chained in the backyard.


I don't think anyone did. But some of us find it wrong to leave a dog outside all the time. Especially if it has no company. Dogs are social creatures and many are miserable left alone outside for long hours. How is that any better than leaving the dog inside alone for hours?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

crysania said:


> I don't think anyone did. But some of us find it wrong to leave a dog outside all the time. Especially if it has no company. Dogs are social creatures and many are miserable left alone outside for long hours. How is that any better than leaving the dog inside alone for hours?


I'm not sure I do understand what you wanted to truly express... 

people do leave their dogs inside their homes for hours and hours alone in crates ( often suggest to put them in just enough room that they can sit and turn around) they don't have access to move and some don't have water or food and need to abstain from relieving themselves. lots of people complain if a dog relieves themselves in crate for them to need to clean the dog and the bedding.. lots of things dogs left alone or with supervision in the home people are at their wits end and feel the need to discard those dogs and punish them every day of their lives..... .???

sounds awful doesn't it...... people do it because they love their dogs and want to keep them safe....


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## crysania (Oct 1, 2010)

PatriciafromCO said:


> I'm not sure I do understand what you wanted to truly express...
> 
> people do leave their dogs inside their homes for hours and hours alone in crates ( often suggest to put them in just enough room that they can sit and turn around) they don't have access to move and some don't have water or food and need to abstain from relieving themselves. lots of people complain if a dog relieves themselves in crate for them to need to clean the dog and the bedding.. lots of things dogs left alone or with supervision in the home people are at their wits end and feel the need to discard those dogs and punish them every day of their lives..... .???
> 
> sounds awful doesn't it...... people do it because they love their dogs and want to keep them safe....


I believe the OP indicated that leaving your dog home alone inside for hours was a terrible thing. But they're doing the same thing outside...so I'm not sure why one is bad and the other is not according to them.

That being said, I don't think dogs should be crated for hours and hours alone (I do understand crating, for the record; and did use a crate for short periods of time with my new dog because he was stressed and destructive when I brought him home, but that lasted 6 months). I have two dogs so when we're out (usually no more than 4-6 hours at a time), the dogs have a buddy. Dogs are social creatures. I have issues with dogs who are stuck alone for long periods of time without some sort of company. Either another canine friend if they're dog friendly or their humans.


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## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

I'm an inside dog person, but I try to be open-minded and I can respect other's lifestyles are different than mine. I think sometimes it's hard to understand other lifestyles when you have lived yours a certain way and vise versa. OP sounds like they are "outside" the majority of the day if I'm not mistaken. So the dog has human interaction and many of his needs met throughout the day because they are more outside then inside. I think the problem lies when dogs are neglected and left outside not having their needs met, it doesn't sound like the case here. JMO


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Thanks *crysania * do understand and agree with what you were expressing... 

and with lizzy25.. i am in and out all day for the farm animals and the dogs are with me.. so much to teach and learn and supervise for everyone. Always a job for the dogs to learn how to help me with the other animals, be my partner / watch over me, doing chores or projects checking and mending fencing.. just like any other lifestyle that the dogs are a working partner with the owners..


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

sorry that I brought up my beliefes won't happen again.

I will answer sufficiently later today.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

For the second time today, I've had to delete multiple posts that were in violation of our rules against the discussion of religion. It is the responsibility of forum members to read and familiarize themselves with the forum rules. If I see this happen again, I'm going to start handing out some temp bans.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Boogies Day....

5:30 I get up. Make breakfast and give boogie a small breakfast. My husband and I have breakfast.
6.00 I walk outside, boogie gets love cuddles and play time for about 30-40 min
6:30 dog and I go to collect the eggs feed the chickens check their water etc...
7:15 boogie and I get in the side by side and drive along the fence line to check for problems. I use that time with her for ob training,cuddles and walking on the leash 
10:0 we get back boogie gets the second part of her breakfast and depending on what else we have to do either play or rest time
10:30 I go to my horses (15) various ages. They get fed, boogie walks with me and learns "stay"and "no" along the way.
11:30 I go inside and cook lunch for my husband and our 4-8 farm workers.Boogie plays in the yard.
12:30 lunch
1:30 boogie goes with my husband into his shop to watch him repair or work on on equipment. I let my chickens out while she's with him.
2:00 I go check on my goats.
3:00 I get boogie for horse time. While I ride I put her with her lunch in her kennel(6ftx12ft)
5:00 boogie gets her freedom again. We play and check on the cattle.
6:00 inside cook dinner for us 2.
7:00 I go lock the chickens up, feed the horses, check on the pregnant livestock etc. Boogie is involved in everything.
8:00 boogie eats dinner while we eat inside
8:45 i get my glass of wine and my husband his beer while we sit outside on the porch with boogie.
10:30 I get ready for bed. My husband comes inside with me.
11:00 I am in bed. He goes walk the property, checks on livestock, works in his shop, plays and trains with boogie.
12:30 he goes to bed. Boogie sleeps on the porch.
So the longest she is alone is about 5 hrs.

Most of our days are like that.

Edit: Since we raise our own cattle boogie gets home grown/home cooked meals. Before that starts of a new outrage. I mix our own feed for the chickens and horses, so I read a ton of books on nutrition of chickens, horses,cows and dogs. So I am confident in doing it. She does get some dry strore bought food to snack on. but her meals are all home made ;-)


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## Leashcarrier (Aug 14, 2016)

The same topic is placed in a german dogforum. They made a cultural thing out of it, because they think outdoorkeeping is normal in the USA. For a puppy? Is that right? I could't believe it.
I'm happy to see that there are some critical voices here, too.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Leashcarrier said:


> The same topic is placed in a german dogforum. They made a cultural thing out of it, because they think outdoorkeeping is normal in the USA. For a puppy? Is that right? I could't believe it.
> I'm happy to see that there are some critical voices here, too.


Absolutely not 'normal' in the USA. People do it, sure, but it's not exactly generally accepted or approved of. People also chain dogs to dog houses in the back yard, but likewise: Reallllly not considered decent pet care.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Our Dog is not on a chain what so ever and never will be. I think there is a big difference in having a pup outside in a warm climate like we have down south or if a dog is chained to a tree,a barn or a dog house.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

The things I see that would make keeping a pup outside a HUGE mistake would be:

1. No secure shelter
- completely safe from wind, rain, heat and cold?
- completely safe from predators?

2. Pup has ability to leave the shelter on his own. 
- can pup roam outside free at night when everyone is sleeping - regardless of property fence?

I'd love to be able to have a dog working outside by my side all day rather than being cooped up inside the house or crate for 8-10 hours a day. But I'd make very sure the pup was 100% secure at night if I can't be right there with it....especially because of how young he is.

Hanging out w/pup all day? GREAT!
Slamming door on puppy's face to be left alone in the elements all night? NOT great.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

She can go in the barn at anytimes...cold is rarly an issue due to the location we live ;-)
Heat is factor but we have a screened in porch with fans going 24hrs a day.

Our bedroom has access to the porch.Boogie has a bed right next to it, so tech. she is about 9ft away from my bed. She also has a bed next to the kitchen door, a crate that she can go into if she wants. Her kennel is in the yard and is plenty big for her.The fence around our yard is about 5ft,chain-links...and it has 3ft of concert in the ground, so nothing is digging in or out to quick.

I am fairly confident that our yard+porch+barn is very safe. She is to big to be picked up by any bird...about 20lbs now ;-)


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## Leashcarrier (Aug 14, 2016)

Im not sure what the OP wants to hear?
Tablepounding and applause about how wild and original her dog (and lifestyle) is?
At dogforum.de they clap their hands now because they dont want to be banned ...
But sorry, I see no difference at all between a lonesome puppy inside or outside. 

Yes, there might be some dogs who like such a life, but most dogs don't. Especially a puppy!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

don't think the OP ever thought that the inside / outside dog debate would happen.. Thought the OP was just sharing their excitement for getting a new pup...


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

PatriciafromCO said:


> don't think the OP ever thought that the inside / outside dog debate would happen.. Thought the OP was just sharing their excitement for getting a new pup...


It's going to happen on any forum OP participates in, unless it's a farm dog forum or a forum specifically aimed towards people who keep dogs outside.

Most people on dog forums are very invested in their dogs and their dog's happiness and think of them as family. My family doesn't sleep outside and neither do my dogs. I don't ever want to "escape" from them or think of them as a nuisance in my life. And I think that sentiment is shared by a vast majority of people on this, and other, forums.

ETA: This response has actually been rather tame compared to how I've seen similar posts responded to on my other breed-specific communities. But keeping companion dogs outside is, as CptJack so succinctly put it, "not exactly generally accepted or approved of".


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I think if I were to ever have an outside dog (which would ONLY happen with a LGD on my future dream farm), I'd be most worried about the dog wandering into another farmer's property and that farmer using liberal use of the SSS policy I see everywhere on the farm/homestead forums I belong to. :/


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Our dog can't wander to a neighbor, because of the fence around your yard. She can't jump 5ft. Plus we practically have no neighbors

We are very invested in our dog, it's part of the farm family:wink: 

It doesn't accrue to me that my dog has bad life. It gets a lot of attention, trash homemade homegrown food...

I have the feeling leashcarrier just wants to make a case against me, go ahead I don't care.

I just came from walking her, guess what she is as happy as can be...sitting with us on the porch.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Tiany said:


> Our dog can't wander to a neighbor, because of the fence around your yard. She can't jump 5ft. Plus we practically have no neighbors
> 
> We are very invested in our dog, it's part of the farm family:wink:
> 
> ...


You're feeding your puppy trash, homemade and homegrown food?


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

She gets a combination of raw and special cooked meals...no trash...beef and chickens from our farm...vegetables from our garden...


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Tiany said:


> She gets a combination of raw and special cooked meals...no trash...beef and chickens from our farm...vegetables from our garden...


Okay, your other post definitely said 'trash', but I'll assume it was an autocorrect. 

Make sure you do your research about feeding raw and cooked meals. I think the splits are 80% meat, 10% organ and 10% bone in order to have a balanced raw diet, but you'd have to look on a raw feeding forum to know for sure. It's really imperative that she gets a proper diet while she's growing, and cooked meals that are good for humans aren't necessarily good for dogs.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Yes big autocorrect mistake...it was meant to mean Fresh...

I read about 3 books on feeding a dog raw.I mix my own chicken and horse feet and our cows get a combination. 

I boil the chicken before she gets it. The beef is raw.she also gets deer meat from our woods. We just slaughtered a cow 3weeks ago so I got organs,meat and bones taken care of


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I think most fit bigger dogs can probably get over a 5 foot fence if they want to. I have a medium-sized dog and a giant dog and both of them can, even though neither is a spring chicken.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

I am not arguing she won't be but as of now she's to little...if my 13 week pup jumps 5ft ill get her a price :wink:


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Yea I was gonna say, don't count on a 5' fence to contain her forever. Most reasonably athletic adult dogs could clear that without much trouble if motivated to.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Tiany said:


> I am not arguing she won't be but as of now she's to little...if my 13 week pup jumps 5ft ill get her a price :wink:


What do you plan to do when she's big enough to get over the fence?


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Probably nothing because if she jumps the 5ft she's only out of the yard,not even close to be out of the property. We have deer fencing around a 400x400ft so she couldn't go anywhere from there. Once she's old enough she will be allowed in that part anyway


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Eh... I still think most people are being overly harsh here. The schedule posted looks fine to me. Seems like the dog is with her people for all but a few hours of the night while everyone is sleeping... And she sleeps on a bed on the porch near your room, correct? It might not be what most of us would do with our dogs, but it's FAR from being a negative/harmful environment for the dog. Some folks need to lighten up a little and realize different strokes for different folks. The dog is secure. Fed. Active. Loved. Healthy. Happy. Why is everyone bashing this OP so much? If someone is going to have an outside dog, this seems to be about the best case scenario for that.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

TGKvr said:


> Eh... I still think most people are being overly harsh here. The schedule posted looks fine to me. Seems like the dog is with her people for all but a few hours of the night while everyone is sleeping... And she sleeps on a bed on the porch near your room, correct? It might not be what most of us would do with our dogs, but it's FAR from being a negative/harmful environment for the dog. Some folks need to lighten up a little and realize different strokes for different folks. The dog is secure. Fed. Active. Loved. Healthy. Happy. Why is everyone bashing this OP so much? If someone is going to have an outside dog, this seems to be about the best case scenario for that.


^^^^^^^ this ^^^^^ ?????


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## Joao M (May 30, 2016)

I rarely comment on training and/or dog keeping conditions posts because I come from another country and culture and things are so different that I have no intention to "sell you" my concepts and way of living. It is really a totally different mindset when you compare (south) Europe and the US in so many things including in dogkeeping.

Having said that, I will make an exception just to say this: I have kept several dogs for the past 30 years, some inside and some outside depending on my the living conditions (the outside dogs were mostly but not exclusively LGD´s ).The important is to be consistent and give all the attention you can to your dogs. The biggest mistake I made was to bring inside the house a dog used to live outside. Big mistake...

I keep my cuurent dog (a bullmastiff) inside the house with me. I live in an apartment in the city so there is really no other option even if I wanted to. However, he spends a lot of time alone during the day (not in a crate) and of course that is not ideal. But, that is my life and the life I am able to provided him. He adjusts. This 9 month dog could never become a happy outside dog, because that it not the world he knows.

Many days I wish I was living in a farm and my dog was able to run outside freely all day. Part of the day with me but also without me when he wanted to or i was not there. And if he was used to it from day one and spent a good part of the day with the me/the family, he would possibly be a much happier dog than he is today. Even if he slept outside. As long as that was "his world" from day one.

Generally speaking, I believe the biggest mistakes we do is imposing to the others our own way of living and considering "our way is the only way". 
This is as valid for international politics as it is for dog keeping.

Just my 2 cents. Hope you don´t take this the wrong way.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> The biggest mistake I made was to bring inside the house a dog used to live outside. Big mistake...


I'm almost afraid to ask. I've brought several adult/middle aged farm dogs inside and had no issues beyond, of course, needing to teach them house manners the same way I would any other dog or puppy who had no training. My Boston, in fact, was an exclusively outdoor farm dog until she came to me.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

We live in southern Alabama. I am originally from Europe.

Yes she has 2 beds on our porch. One right next to the bedroom-porch door and one to the kitchen-porch door. The porch is big 90ftx35ft screened-in with a roof on. The bed room is about in the middle of it...even if it has hurricanes or storms that part of the porch stays dry. I have stayed out there during heavy storms...we typicaly do that if the weather is bad so we can get to the livestock asap if needed. We had big storms the last week and either me or my husband stayed outside all night to monitor the storm. 

V


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## Joao M (May 30, 2016)

CptJack said:


> I'm almost afraid to ask. I've brought several adult/middle aged farm dogs inside and had no issues beyond, of course, needing to teach them house manners the same way I would any other dog or puppy who had no training. My Boston, in fact, was an exclusively outdoor farm dog until she came to me.


Please don´t be. I will explain
She was a 3 y.o. "Rafeiro do Alentejo" (aka. Portuguese Mastiff, so a LGD) tha was used to live freely in the farm. A typical "outside dog" 
She was brought inside to live with the family (in a city house) and started by spending hours looking at the windows with no reaction. One time she tried to jump and cut herself.
Then she ate an armchair and half of a couch.
After sometime she started to chew her own paws until they were in blood and ultimately in raw flesh. She was treated daily and daily she would rip the bandages to do it again. We would stop her but as soon as she was alone (a couple of hours per day) she would immediately start doing it again.
It was not an allergy or rush or anything like it. Two vets checked and and made a battery of tests. It was depression (I don´t know if you use the same word for dogs but I think you will understand what I mean) 
After a while with no improvement we took her back to the farm to her outside living (with indoor "open kennel", a kind of a small barn that the dogs rarely used). And she got back to the happy live she had before. She lived many years after that (I thing she was 13 when she died)

This could be just one example and not the norm, I admit that. But this happened and was my fault. My mistake


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

TGKvr said:


> Eh... I still think most people are being overly harsh here. The schedule posted looks fine to me. Seems like the dog is with her people for all but a few hours of the night while everyone is sleeping... And she sleeps on a bed on the porch near your room, correct? It might not be what most of us would do with our dogs, but it's FAR from being a negative/harmful environment for the dog. Some folks need to lighten up a little and realize different strokes for different folks. The dog is secure. Fed. Active. Loved. Healthy. Happy. Why is everyone bashing this OP so much? If someone is going to have an outside dog, this seems to be about the best case scenario for that.


While people are certainly critical, the only person I see repeatedly coming onto this thread to be overly harsh is you. You're not even interacting with the OP, you just pop in every once in a while to "defend" her (and she does a pretty good job of that herself) and to berate the rest of us for commenting and saying we don't like the situation. And most of the rest of us, despite being critical, have offered constructive criticism to the OP (myself included). 

Different strokes for different folks is right. Some people like to train with +P, and I will be critical of that. Some people like to use tie outs while their dog is unsupervised, and I will be critical of that. Some people let their dogs and children interact inappropriately, and I will be critical of that. And some people like to keep a very young puppy out doors with insecure fencing and minimal safety precautions, and I will be critical of that. 

I decided a long time ago that the OP isn't going to change her mind, and that her idea of what's "acceptable" for the care of an animal and mine are two completely different things. Notice how my last two comments were about diet and the appropriate way to feed raw and homecooked? 

If you're going to repeatedly come back to the thread, at least come back to interact with the OP and add something positive to it.



CptJack said:


> I'm almost afraid to ask. I've brought several adult/middle aged farm dogs inside and had no issues beyond, of course, needing to teach them house manners the same way I would any other dog or puppy who had no training. My Boston, in fact, was an exclusively outdoor farm dog until she came to me.


I've also had no problem transitioning solely outdoor dogs to indoor living. Three of them, in fact. They had to be taught manners and trained, but overall, it went quite smoothly. The dogs still got plenty of attention and activity and absolutely HATED being outdoors without me for any lengthy period of time. 

My experience with my dogs is that they will *always* choose to be with me, wherever I am indoors or outdoors, if they have that choice (none of my dogs were working dogs or LGDs). And a dog should have that choice, if its owner is around, in my opinion. I find it overwhelmingly sad that this puppy might want to be with her owners, but they're inside cooking dinner or watching tv while she's locked out on a porch. I'd bet lots of money that this puppy would RATHER be inside with her people than outside. Is she being treated cruelly, or abused? No, not really. Will she have a fine life? Yes. Would she have a happier life if she could be indoors? Yes, probably. 

My goal with my dogs is to give them the absolute happiest life possible and to make any sacrifice within my power for their happiness. So when I see other people unwilling to make sacrifices, such as letting their dogs indoors, it just makes me sad.

Do I think any of that is going to change the OP's mind? Absolutely not. Do I think this forum is made for us to talk about dogs, related experiences, and things we do and don't agree with while also offering constructive advice when we can? Yes.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Joao M said:


> Please don´t be. I will explain
> She was a 3 y.o. "Rafeiro do Alentejo" (aka. Portuguese Mastiff, so a LGD) tha was used to live freely in the farm. A typical "outside dog"
> She was brought inside to live with the family (in a city house) and started by spending hours looking at the windows with no reaction. One time she tried to jump and cut herself.
> Then she ate an armchair and half of a couch.
> ...


I'd have to agree it isn't the norm.

My dog was an outside dog free to roam the neighbourhood before I got her, and I had no issues transitioning her to inside. Housetraining was perfect from day 1, same with crate training, etc. You would never have presumed she was kept outside if you didn't know.


As an aside, I personally think it's a little silly that the dog is literally sleeping a few feet away from the family, but -can't be on the other side of the door- because... I dunno? Aside from that I don't see anything glaringly wrong or abusive, that bit just seems a little bit odd to me. Why does a patio door separating the dog make such a big difference?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Joao M said:


> Please don´t be. I will explain
> She was a 3 y.o. "Rafeiro do Alentejo" (aka. Portuguese Mastiff, so a LGD) tha was used to live freely in the farm. A typical "outside dog"
> She was brought inside to live with the family (in a city house) and started by spending hours looking at the windows with no reaction. One time she tried to jump and cut herself.
> Then she ate an armchair and half of a couch.
> ...


Yeah, I think this is more 'working livestock guardian with a radical lifestyle change' rather than the result of a dog who was born and lived outside coming in. There are certainly things like that that happen, but in this case the likely cause is as much being a dog who is bred and who's life was centered around a job and a bond to other animals than simply being an adult dog coming inside to live.

If that makes sense.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Yep, this is me NOT interacting with the OP and being overly harsh:



> It seems like the prey drive might be your biggest challenge, or one of them at least, so I'd work on any training that reinforces impulse control. But just know that it is entirely possible that you'll never be able to fully trust the dog around your chickens or other small fast moving animals. Intro-training with the gentle old mare sounds like a great start to get your new pup comfortable around other livestock. Otherwise it sounds like you're doing things right insofar as you're introducing her to your farm life and not overtaxing her little puppy bones. Just give lots of love and attention, make training a priority, and enjoy your buddy.





> Growing up, we had this little terrier mutt we rescued (slated to be euthed that very day). He was such a plucky little dog... Anyway, he was allowed inside but he preferred being outside. It was actually pretty hard to keep him inside for any length of time since he'd cry and scratch to go out. Even at night he preferred sleeping on the porch. I suspect it has to do with his former life, which of course we never knew about. But his favorite thing in the world was running along with us on trail rides. Every morning he'd walk the rounds with us, feeding, riding, whatever. I have very fond memories of that dog and one of the few small dogs I've loved unreservedly.





> Aw she's a cutie.





> And she sleeps on a bed on the porch near your room, correct?


Reading comprehension fail. I have maybe four or five posts in this whole thread... which is four pages long. Yet I'm repeatedly coming in and being harsh? OK then. 

I agree the OP is doing a good job defending her position, and is taking the entire conversation in stride. So maybe I'm "defending" her but only because every time someone asks a question, the OP gives a solid answer - Yet none of her responses seem to get anyone else here to say - Oh, ok, maybe you're doing things right then. Everyone's comments seem to indicate that the OP is somehow a less caring dog owner than the rest of you which is quite frankly, unfair. So my apologies if my comments in support of the OP are offensive to you. In the end, all that matters is the dog is healthy and happy and that's what I've been trying to point out. But most people here simply want to continue harping on the inside/outside debate and nitpicking on every detail the OP provides (such as diet).

*shrugs* I have a huge amount of respect for the people on this forum, including you, Hiraeth, because I know that there is a ton of experience and knowledge here. But sometimes it seems a lot of people here get tunnel vision.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I actually agree with the tunnel vision remark. I think sometimes... it's easy to make a lot of assumptions about some things, and have a really hard time breaking out of it. Outside dogs are bad! Because - safety, because training, because interaction. 

But truthfully, if those are addressed, I, personally, have no issue with it. Would I do it? No, not really. I don't have a lifestyle for it. But if the dog has secure housing, can't roam, has ample training and attention and affection, then. Well. For me it comes down to the same sort of thing as feeding decisions or vet care. There are things that aren't negotiable for me - but those come down to the safety and the well being of the dog. Things like dogs outside alone and how long it can take to notice a change in eating/drinking/bathroom habits or mobility, the tendency for people to shut the dog out of their lives, lack of element proof housing, laziness taking over and not doing the training that would be necessary to make the dog enjoyable, lack of protection not just from elements but other dogs/wildlife/predators/people. 

This dog... actually sounds pretty okay. None of those apply, here. 

So. It isn't what I'd want to own from a dog, but not something I consider 'bad', either.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Can I ask why a 5ft fencing(chainlinks) with 3 ft of concerte in the ground is unsecure?

I did mention we have a 10ft(chainlinks) with 5ft concrete in the ground on a bout a radius of 400ftx400ft. 

So the last "intruder" we had was a skunk. We trapped it,we killed it, its gone. We have no bears,no coyotes or any big foots around our house right now.

She is without her collar as soon as we go inside so she can't get hung up anywhere.

I had my chickens out over night before we had boogie, only 2 chickens got lost in about 3 years...picked up by a hawk. Boogie now is about 20lbs and I think a hawk typically doesn't pick up dogs. :wink:

We have the game-cams on from 6pm to 7am. My husband checks them EVERY SINGLE day... And with any larger predator i have learned they stake out the possible "prey" for a day or to so anything that comes close to our property shows up on one cam or another. We also have deer feeders in the woods and they are typically fine, we have black bears around here but they tend to stay away because there is no easy target around here.

@cptJack

I feed my dog everyday so I can tell if she is eating or not. She goes and poops in 1 spot (because I trained her to) we pick her poop up every evening. so far we had 2 or 3 poops in 24hrs. Sometimes when we are out working she poops there so that of course doesn't count.
Change in mobility...first thing in the morning after my breakfast is playing/walking with her..i would notice that. I also want to point out that working with Horses and Cattle gives me a lot of experience with that. We breed/sell and train horses, if I wouldnt be aware of there health it would be a bad thing for our income. 
Boogie has to train a lot because working with Horses or Cattle can be dangerous if your dog doesnt listen. Because a 2000lbs bull won't care if there is 40lbs dog. 
I wouldn't have a dog if i wouldn't be willing to train her. She sits,lays down(not that important to me right now) she stops, she comes, and she def understand no. Do I count on her fully NO OF COURSE not she is 13 weeks. But I certainly trust her far enough to have her in the yard. She is on a leash around the horses and the cattle.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Tiany said:


> Can I ask why a 5ft fencing(chainlinks) with 3 ft of concerte in the ground is unsecure?
> 
> I did mention we have a 10ft(chainlinks) with 5ft concrete in the ground on a bout a radius of 400ftx400ft.
> 
> ...


I think you're probably fine with your fencing as it is, but be prepared for a dog who may learn to climb or jump out and to take measures to do something like coyote rollers - and obviously if you have large predators it can be a problem. You know your area and what's out there and may be a problem better than I do. (Prepared, not necessarily - a lot of dogs do fine with shorter fences or stay fine at 5 feet, as long as they aren't bored or super prey-driven or the like).

Just be aware, is all, and it really sounds like you are. I absolutely believe you've got this and the dog will be fine as it is. My 'I wouldn't' is me and my lifestyle. I work on a computer. I live in a weird mix of 'lots of neighbors, town' and 'wildlife/in the woods'. If my dogs weren't in my house I'd see them about an hour a day and they'd probably be eaten by something. Well, during the day, anyway, and I can't promise I wouldn't be the lazy dork who disconnected and started letting things slide if they weren't in my face.


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Thank you.

I think I am prepared as much as any dog owner can be prepared for murphy's law.


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## Joao M (May 30, 2016)

Enjoy your pupp Tiany.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Leashcarrier said:


> What is a discussionforum for if not for discussion? If someone (even a beginner) is so convinced about his way of dogkeeping, that he doesn't want to discuss it and doesn't even want to read other opinions, then why not use rather a blog oder homepage instead?
> I find it provoking and cruel to leave a puppy alone for hours. I hope this person is a fake.
> 
> For most dogs it's like death-penalty to be alone at night!
> ...


OK I'll bite, since other people are probably sick of it . Save your outrage for something that's actually outrageous. Some people throw a puppy outside (fully outside, unrestrained, vulnerable to every danger) as soon as they take it home, and barely remember to give it food or fill a water bucket, and kick it every time it comes near them. I've met these people. I'm related to some of these people :/. Who even knows why they bother to get a dog in the first place (oh, they say "to keep varmints away from the house"). So, y'know, go yell at them.

I'm no fan of keeping dogs exclusively outdoors. But if it has to be done, this sounds like a best-case scenario. The dog is in a fenced yard, the owners are outdoors a lot, the dog receives good care. It's probably the best a mixed-breed dog in a rural area is going to get.


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## Leashcarrier (Aug 14, 2016)

> But if it has to be done,


 It has to be done? Why does someone who obviously doesn't really like dogs (yes, thats my opinion about people who doesn't want to live with their dog) have one?
Doesn' matter, it's just a dog, right? I would expect such an opinion. 
For religious reasons?
Well, I believe that also dogs are made from god and for god they are not less worth than people. This is only the case in our laws. There is no objectiv reason for that.
"Only a dog" is also like a slap in the face for everybody who really love dogs.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove (Oct 24, 2015)

Willowy said:


> OK I'll bite, since other people are probably sick of it . Save your outrage for something that's actually outrageous. Some people throw a puppy outside (fully outside, unrestrained, vulnerable to every danger) as soon as they take it home, and barely remember to give it food or fill a water bucket, and kick it every time it comes near them. I've met these people. I'm related to some of these people :/. Who even knows why they bother to get a dog in the first place (oh, they say "to keep varmints away from the house"). So, y'know, go yell at them.
> 
> I'm no fan of keeping dogs exclusively outdoors. But if it has to be done, this sounds like a best-case scenario. The dog is in a fenced yard, the owners are outdoors a lot, the dog receives good care. It's probably the best a mixed-breed dog in a rural area is going to get.


Agree^^. Ive been down south and saw plenty of dogs tied to chains and living in barrels in filthy conditions. Heck, my neighbor leaves his old dog out back with no shelter and no water and our neighborhood are the one who walk over to fill its water bowl up. My dog is treated like absolute royalty and would never be left outside, and I wish I could see more folks be more considerate of their dogs...At least this dog will be loved.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm not saying this dog's situation, like, warrants a visit from dog CPS or something. It doesn't sound terrible. But I personally would not recommend getting a dog and keeping it outside full-time, unless it was a dog with a job there, like a livestock guardian. I don't think it being a farm makes it an exception to this generalization - I grew up on a farm, and if anything, there's more reason to allow a dog to come indoors with you there, given how many things on a working farm can injure or kill an unattended dog. We lost one of our german shepherds that way. 

I also think it's important even for a dog that spends a lot of time outdoors to learn to live indoors as well, because there's no guarantee you'll have the animal its entire life. Personal circumstances change, things happen to people, dog grows up to be a chicken killer, etc. A dog that isn't trained to handle indoor life has a much, much lower chance of finding a good new home. Circumstances can also arise where the dog needs to be indoors temporarily for whatever reason and you definitely want the dog housetrained and with good house manners for that, since usually those surprise situations are stressful enough without a big dog crapping all over the place.

My personal experience is also that the vast majority of dogs allowed to roam a property unattended eventually figure out how to get off a property, even when it's fenced.

Of course it's possible to be a crappy dog owner while keeping a dog indoors, too, but that's a red herring in terms of this thread, IMO. Keeping a dog inside and locked up 24/7 with little exercise or engagement: obviously deeply suboptimal. But that doesn't conversely mean it's optimal to have a dog outdoors 24/7, especially when you have the option to do otherwise.


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## MosinMom91 (Aug 12, 2016)

What sucks is this woman was excited to share about the puppy she just got, as we all want to do when we get a new member of the family, and she was asking questions for help about the breeds and advice on possible stubbornness. Instead she has had to defend herself from 5 pages of flack for the comment that her dog is outside. Would everyone on this forum put their dog outside? No. But this dog does not sound in any way lacking for attention and basic needs. Yes, these forums are for discussing things, but it's so off topic of what the OP was asking about that it's become a little like beating a dead horse. She is not changing her mind no matter how many people berate her, the dog is still being taken care of, and we are not in her life situation. Discussion and passing judgement are two different things.


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## MosinMom91 (Aug 12, 2016)

Tiany said:


> I would like to know maybe from a Chowowner how to deal with the hardheadedness. I know pits tend to be hardheaded too so I understand we have our work cut out for us but I am not afraid of the challenge. And I also understand that the Black Cur might be coming through with the hunting" instincts.
> 
> I would love to hear some insights ;-)
> 
> Anna


I have a couple of hounds, and one VERY stubborn LGD. The one hound came to us with a very strong prey drive, to the point that even our cats weren't safe if we went outside. We worked with a combination of E-collar and positive rewards, along with being put on a leash outside if she bolted towards any small prey. She learned that if she bolted, she was tethered to mom and there was no getting to sniff and play and explore. Now, a simple "leave it" when a rabbit or a ground squirrel darts in front of us is sufficient. 

As for stubbornness, some dogs are definitely more hard to train than others. Pit bulls themselves are not very hardheaded. In fact, they are usually very easy to train. Chows on the other hand CAN be stubborn, so it's just important to remember to keep your patience. Sometimes when my CO puppy doesn't want to listen to a command it would be very easy for me to lose patience and scream or hit or yank, but all of those things would end up hurting the relationship I have with my boy. Just keep your patience and stay consistent! Even the most stubborn dog gets broken down with a combination of consistency, patience, a strong voice, and lots of treats!

Keep up the work with your baby. I'd love to see a few pictures!


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

Ok Leashcarrier obviously has a huge issue with me...

Boogie has spend "cruel" 45min alone today. Guess what? My husband was up pretty much all night working to fix fencing that was destroy yesterday by a storm. Our dog was with him. Just let it go and accept that my dog is not mistreated. She is as happy as can be. I saw that you live in Berlin, a big city. Do you have a yard? Does your dog walk stairs a lot of times? If been to Berlin, its sure a nice city, but 1000x more dangerous than our farm. Talking about cars, poison etc...


Thank you for all the positive comments!

I am certainly very eager to find out what kind of traits our Boogie will have! I can tell she is very willing to please, at least at this stage of her life. ;-) I will post some pics pretty soon. 

We have a vet at the farm pretty much every 2 weeks or so...if he would notice Boogie was mistreated or any thing like it, I am pretty sure he would say something ;-)

And I am not afraid that in the near future Boogie will get too board.

Thanks again for all the positive feedback


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## Joao M (May 30, 2016)

I do hope everything continues in the good track between you and Boogie. I also second MosinMom´s request for pictures.
Good luck, Anna


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

ooh...pictures...more pictures! I would love to see Boogie as he grows up...and see your farm and horses!


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## Tiany (May 4, 2016)

There will be pictures ;-) I am working on in. Hang in there


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