# Low ash foods



## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

I'm looking for a quality formula for my dog that is fairly low in ash. I do not shop online so that may hinder my abilities in getting certain brands. 
Anyone have suggestions?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Pro Plan or Royal Canin...otherwise you will have to buy on-line. Annamaet & Dr. Tim's would be the two best. Precise regular foods are also very low ash but finding them is hard.

Don't let people tell you PP and RC are bad foods because they are very good. 

Where do live?


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Pro Plan or Royal Canin...otherwise you will have to buy on-line. Annamaet & Dr. Tim's would be the two best. Precise regular foods are also very low ash but finding them is hard.
> 
> Don't let people tell you PP and RC are bad foods because they are very good.
> 
> Where do live?


I live in Central Canada...
The only thing about Royal Canin is that they have wheat in the ingredients list... what formula would you recommend for a medium sized, moderately active, young dog?


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

What about Nature's Variety Instinct? How are the ash levels on it? Really looking for something without chicken/eggs.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

seta said:


> What about Nature's Variety Instinct? How are the ash levels on it? Really looking for something without chicken/eggs.


NV is one of the highest ash foods on the market. Some are 12%.

Check out Fromm, and I agree on the Royal Canin. Also Verus, but I'm not sure how easy it is to find in other states. Science Diet Ideal Balance will be low ash and available in most common pet stores. NOW Fresh, made by Petcurean, has a few low ash formulas. Some are high-ish though, so you just have to check their analysis.


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> NV is one of the highest ash foods on the market. Some are 12%.
> 
> Check out Fromm, and I agree on the Royal Canin. Also Verus, but I'm not sure how easy it is to find in other states. Science Diet Ideal Balance will be low ash and available in most common pet stores. NOW Fresh, made by Petcurean, has a few low ash formulas. Some are high-ish though, so you just have to check their analysis.


 Isn't Now mainly comprised of eggs? It only lists chicken with no meal... where is all of the protein coming from?


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Nutrisca Salmon is low ash. They claim it's 4%. Their other 2 are high - 8.7 and 9.2.


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

Check Canine Caviar.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

seta said:


> I live in Central Canada...
> The only thing about Royal Canin is that they have wheat in the ingredients list... what formula would you recommend for a medium sized, moderately active, young dog?


RC Medium Puppy even though the dog is an adult
Pro Plan Sport 28/18

Personally, I think the new PP Sport 28/18 is one of the better foods on the market.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> RC Medium Puppy even though the dog is an adult
> Pro Plan Sport 28/18
> 
> Personally, I think the new PP Sport 28/18 is one of the better foods on the market.


Ingredients
Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), whole grain corn, corn germ meal, brewers dried yeast, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, wheat bran, calcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite. 

So the little that I know - the stuff in red are low level ingredients that based on internet research you shouldn't feed; the cyan color is for stuff that is ingredient splitting and the lime is all corn and ingredient splitting - looks pretty bad to me but what do I know.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> Ingredients
> Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), whole grain corn, corn germ meal, brewers dried yeast, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, wheat bran, calcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.
> 
> So the little that I know - the stuff in red are low level ingredients that based on internet research you shouldn't feed; the cyan color is for stuff that is ingredient splitting and the lime is all corn and ingredient splitting - looks pretty bad to me but what do I know.


Exactly, what do you know. "Internet Research" what is that? 

Go to a top level show or sporting event and speak to someone that actually knows something and ask what they feed.

Go through each of your objections and then I will explain a few things to you.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Does anyone know the ash content in Orijen? (specifically the Puppy formula). 

I emailed the company a few days ago but have yet to receive a response. 


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> Exactly, what do you know. "Internet Research" what is that?
> 
> Go to a top level show or sporting event and speak to someone that actually knows something and ask what they feed.
> 
> Go through each of your objections and then I will explain a few things to you.


Apparently I know nothing compared to you ... apparently most people know nothing compared to you. I think you said that ash comes from bone and minerals from meat ... doesn't corn have protein? Yep! http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/much-protein-corn-7969.html so all that corn is where the protein comes in.

I've seen the commercials on the national dog shows - the top breeders use Purina!

Here's the 2013 musher list - looks like 67 finished - did all of their dogs eat Dr Tim's? Probably not. http://iditarod.com/race/2013/mushers/list/ Finishing 1st or 2nd is also the skill of the musher ... NY Yankees and Boston Red Socks don't win every game but they pay the most.

4Health Brand looks a lot better, it's not as premium as others but I can't speak of the ash content:

Ingredients: 
Chicken, chicken meal, ground rice, cracked pearled barley, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), egg product, dried plain beet pulp, flaxseed, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, potassium chloride, salt, choline chloride, dried chicory root, glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulfate, vitamin E supplement, iron proteinate, zinc proteinate, yucca schidigera extract, copper proteinate, ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, copper sulfate, potassium iodide, thiamine mononitrate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, ascorbic acid, vitamin A supplement, biotin, niacin, calcium pantothenate, manganese sulfate, sodium selenite, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, riboflavin, vitamin D supplement, folic acid. 

Guaranteed Analysis: 
Crude Protein 30.0% (min.), Crude Fat 20.0% (min.), Crude Fiber 3.0% (max.), Moisture 10.0% (max.), Zinc 150 mg/kg (min.), Selenium 0.4 mg/kg (min.), Vitamin E 150 IU/kg (min.), Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 3.3% (min.), Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.5% (min.), Glucosamine* 600 mg/kg (min.), Chondroitin Sulfate* 200 mg/kg (min.), 


Over the threads you have listed a few "good" foods to people but it seems to change. The difference in price between Dr. Tims and Purina Pro sport is $7.00 on Chewy - are you saying their equivalent. Annamaet Extra is the same price ... those two are the "best" says you:

"Bumper1 

Re: Low ash foods
Pro Plan or Royal Canin...otherwise you will have to buy on-line. Annamaet & Dr. Tim's would be the two best. Precise regular foods are also very low ash but finding them is hard."

I won't argue that they may be "the best" but it's like you are putting the other 2 almost in the same category. Why bring up something that is not even equivalent?


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

BubbaMoose said:


> Does anyone know the ash content in Orijen? (specifically the Puppy formula).
> 
> I emailed the company a few days ago but have yet to receive a response.
> 
> ...


Their website used to have ash levels. 

Yup, here you go: http://www.orijen.ca/blog/products/dry-dog-food/puppy/

Orijen puppy is 8%.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Just looked back at an old e-mail from Champion to me. When they changed formulas, I emailed asking for current ash levels for Acana. This is the email they sent me:

The ash levels for the new Regional’s are as follows:
Wild Prairie- 7%
Pacifica-8%
Grasslands- 9%
Ranchlands-9%

Lamb & Okanagan Apple is 9%
Duck & Bartlett Pear is 7.5%
Chicken & Burbank Potato is 7.5%.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> Their website used to have ash levels.
> 
> Yup, here you go: http://www.orijen.ca/blog/products/dry-dog-food/puppy/
> 
> Orijen puppy is 8%.


Wow. I totally missed that. Thanks. 

And now...cue the tears, lol. 


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## asuna (Sep 26, 2013)

seta said:


> I live in Central Canada...
> The only thing about Royal Canin is that they have wheat in the ingredients list... what formula would you recommend for a medium sized, moderately active, young dog?


i live in canada. buy acana my dog likes wild prairie http://www.acana.com/products/regionals/wild-prairie/


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> Ingredients
> Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), whole grain corn, corn germ meal, brewers dried yeast, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, wheat bran, calcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.
> 
> So the little that I know - the stuff in red are low level ingredients that based on internet research you shouldn't feed; the cyan color is for stuff that is ingredient splitting and the lime is all corn and ingredient splitting - looks pretty bad to me but what do I know.


I actually like the looks of this formula. I just don't like the menadione... I know there have been studies to prove that it is harmless but.... I can't get my head around it.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

seta said:


> I actually like the looks of this formula. I just don't like the menadione... I know there have been studies to prove that it is harmless but.... I can't get my head around it.


What do you like about it?


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Unfortunately I don't have access to most of the brands being mentioned. 
No: Fromm, dr Tim's (I wish), Annamaet, verus, 4health, canine cavier... it sucks.


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

BubbaMoose said:


> What do you like about it?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 It's a very simple formula. Good balance of protein/fat/fiber and it IS low ash and Phos. I HATE dog foods that include a bunch of herbs and alfalfa. That is what I honestly believe my dog is sensitive to
Best brand my dog ever did on was Iams adult. I wouldn't go back to it because I don't like the company. 
Worst my dog has ever done on was Acana. 
I don't believe that corn is the devil. I don't believe that Purina is the devil (they have a fairly safe track record as far as I'm concerned). I don't believe that if you pay $75 bucks per bag, you get a better food. 
I believe in feeding a good base dog food (simple ingredient list) and supplementing with raw meat/tripe/eggs.


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> Apparently I know nothing compared to you ... apparently most people know nothing compared to you. I think you said that ash comes from bone and minerals from meat ... doesn't corn have protein? Yep! http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/much-protein-corn-7969.html so all that corn is where the protein comes in.
> 
> I've seen the commercials on the national dog shows - the top breeders use Purina!
> 
> ...


 Monstersdad *ahem* Bumper1 knows his stuff. You should listen.


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> RC Medium Puppy even though the dog is an adult
> Pro Plan Sport 28/18
> 
> Personally, I think the new PP Sport 28/18 is one of the better foods on the market.


 the RC formula is almost perfect BUT it has wheat and citric acid. Citric acid has been linked to bloat, hasn't it?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

seta said:


> Unfortunately I don't have access to most of the brands being mentioned.
> No: Fromm, dr Tim's (I wish), Annamaet, verus, 4health, canine cavier... it sucks.


Can you get Nutram? I think you said you were in Canada.


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## asuna (Sep 26, 2013)

i really cant vouch for acana enough. its locally grown in canada, its amazing product before my dog i used it on my cat and his coat was so shiny and healthy and he was so healthy i mean its just all around damn good food


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Can you get Nutram? I think you said you were in Canada.


They used to sell it at a Petland close to me but quit carrying it. I was just about to start using the brand actually and they stopped carrying it a month or so before


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

seta said:


> They used to sell it at a Petland close to me but quit carrying it. I was just about to start using the brand actually and they stopped carrying it a month or so before


Simplify your life and just get Pro Plan Sport 28/18. If its good enough for 80% of Westminster dogs and close to 90% of AKC Master Hunters its good enough for anyone.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

seta said:


> Monstersdad *ahem* Bumper1 knows his stuff. You should listen.


He/She probably forgot more than I will ever know but Bumper1 is all over the place with the foods that's recommended.

Once in a thread it was mentioned by Bumper1 that Victor is a good food and in another thread it has high ash and other threads Bumper1 states that high ash is no good ... well how can a food be good and have high ash as well? It may be inappropriate for my dog - OK, but it was a general statement that high ash foods are not good. 

Here's Dr Tim's Momentum food:

Ingredients:
Chicken meal, brown rice flour, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), ocean herring meal, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), dried whole egg, flax seed meal, dried chicken liver meal, menhaden fish oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), dried porcine plasma protein, lecithin, potassium chloride, calcium carbonate, salt, yucca shidigera extract, dried chicory root, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product, dried Saccharomyces cerevisiae fermentation product, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, DL-methionine (essential amino acid), psyllium seed husk, choline chloride, dried organic kelp meal, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (stabilized ascorbic acid), L-lysine, taurine, vitamin E supplement, L-carnitine, zinc sulfate, zinc proteinate, beta carotene, ferrous sulfate, ascorbic acid (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, inositol, niacin supplement, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, zinc oxide, biotin, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), copper proteinate, vitamin A supplement, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), calcium pantothenate, potassium iodide (source of iodine), manganous oxide, selenium, calcium iodate, vitamin B12 supplement, sodium selenite, vitamin D3 supplement, folic acid, rosemary extract.

On Dr Tim's website it states that it is formulated with a PhD in canine nutrition and as you can see they don't use corn in their highest (or lowest) protein food - if corn was so good "THE BEST" food would have it - period! http://drtims.com/momentum/

Here's Anamaet ingredients - the other "BEST" food:

Ingredient List:

Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Chicken Fat (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)), Millet, Whole Dry Eggs, Herring Meal, Dried Beet Pulp, Brewers Dried Yeast, Menhaden Fish Oil (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)), Flax Seed Meal, Carrot, Celery, Parsley, Lettuce, Watercress, Spinach, Lecithin, Salt, DL Methionine, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Propionic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate, L-Carnitine, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Choline Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Betaine Anhydrous, Iron Proteinate, Selenium Yeast, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate.


I don't see corn in there either ... again if it's one of the best, it would have corn in it.

To say that Purina Sport is one of the better foods out there seems to be a stretch IMO since apparently it uses various forms of corn to up it's protein level. By using the term "one of the better" Bumper1 is equating it to close to the best.

Bumper1 states that ingredient splitting is bad in Champion foods, Orijen and Acana, but it's OK in Purina Pro Sport ... huh? It contain corn gluten meal (4th item), whole grain corn (6th) and corn germ meal (7th) - as I see it splitting is splitting. 

As far as seeing it at dog shows or anyplace else ... money talks and I would suspect that is one of the prime reasons Purina is in sponsoring the shows and I imagine there is something for the person who's dog becomes champion and eats Purina. It used to be (maybe still happens) every winning quarterback in the Superbowl was "Going to Disney" - do you think they got paid? I do. Heck during the recent Apple Iphone 5S &5C launch advertisers paid people money to wear branded stuff for their clients. All about money.

Purina safety: http://www.fda.gov/Safety/Recalls/ucm366953.htm Wasn't sport that time but they have recalls too.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> Bumper1 states that ingredient splitting is bad in Champion foods, Orijen and Acana, but it's OK in Purina Pro Sport ... huh? It contain corn gluten meal (4th item), whole grain corn (6th) and corn germ meal (7th) - as I see it splitting is splitting.


This. 

Thisthisthis.


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## dogloverforlife (Feb 23, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> He/She probably forgot more than I will ever know but Bumper1 is all over the place with the foods that's recommended.
> 
> Once in a thread it was mentioned by Bumper1 that Victor is a good food and in another thread it has high ash and other threads Bumper1 states that high ash is no good ... well how can a food be good and have high ash as well? It may be inappropriate for my dog - OK, but it was a general statement that high ash foods are not good.
> 
> ...


I like your thinking!

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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Simplify your life and just get Pro Plan Sport 28/18. If its good enough for 80% of Westminster dogs and close to 90% of AKC Master Hunters its good enough for anyone.


 But is it good enough for them because Purina sponsors them? That's what i would like to know...


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> He/She probably forgot more than I will ever know but Bumper1 is all over the place with the foods that's recommended.
> 
> Once in a thread it was mentioned by Bumper1 that Victor is a good food and in another thread it has high ash and other threads Bumper1 states that high ash is no good ... well how can a food be good and have high ash as well? It may be inappropriate for my dog - OK, but it was a general statement that high ash foods are not good.
> 
> ...


 Good thoughts and questions... Bumper1?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

The above is just plain silly. When you see people refer to XXX as being the Xth ingredient its obvious they don't know what they are talking about.

As for Pro Plan, the results speak for them self. It is on my short-list of foods due to results and the safety of using it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> He/She probably forgot more than I will ever know but Bumper1 is all over the place with the foods that's recommended.
> 
> Once in a thread it was mentioned by Bumper1 that Victor is a good food and in another thread it has high ash and other threads Bumper1 states that high ash is no good ... well how can a food be good and have high ash as well? It may be inappropriate for my dog - OK, but it was a general statement that high ash foods are not good.
> 
> ...


I agree with this as well. I mean hey, Olympic athletes promote that they love McDonald's, so it must be the reason for their success... right?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

seta said:


> But is it good enough for them because Purina sponsors them? That's what i would like to know...


Let's be honest. Look at the time, tears, work and money that goes into showing a dog or bringing a dog to the AKC Master Hunter level and compare it to the price of food. Would any top kennel, trainer or handler invest years and many tens of thousands of dollars in a dog and feed it something only because of the breeder discount program? You would have to be crazy to believe that.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

What about products with Rice in them being high in arsenic? 

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/red-flag-ingredients/arsenic-rice-dog-food/

Its more of a "recent" thing but its also a human health hazard. I'm trying not to feed so much rice to my dog. Rice is a red flag for me in dog foods right now.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> What about products with Rice in them being high in arsenic?
> 
> http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/red-flag-ingredients/arsenic-rice-dog-food/
> 
> Its more of a "recent" thing but its also a human health hazard. I'm trying not to feed so much rice to my dog. Rice is a red flag for me in dog foods right now.


That is a real issue but its limited by geography not anything to do with rice itself. Ask if the company tests. I know everything that is made at Ohio Pet foods is tested free and clear of arsenic and Purina has stringent testing on these items. I know a guy from training that delivers chicken to Purina and he hates that job because of the way each load is evaluated.


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Question about the Pro Plan directed at Bumper1:
-- If a dog were to have food allergies, wouldn't wheat be one of the top causes?
-- what do you think about menadione? Isn't it shown to harm dogs?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

seta said:


> Question about the Pro Plan directed at Bumper1:
> -- If a dog were to have food allergies, wouldn't wheat be one of the top causes?
> -- what do you think about menadione? Isn't it shown to harm dogs?


No...not even close. Wheat has the greatest probability among grains but nowhere near common animal proteins like chicken, beef, eggs and dairy. 

Vitamin K3 fear has to be the most absurd of all the internet rumors, all started by a person that has a website and the some kind of 6 month animal health certificate. It is all based on a study where rats were INJECTED with 6,000 times the amount of K3 they would normally EAT.

Almost anything injected in the blood stream could cause hemolytic anemia. It is so stupid but companies took it out because of the hysteria and phone calls and emails. It is safer than the natural forms because it is water soluble.

Don't lose a minutes sleep over it.

I dare anyone to show me any evidence that after 50 years of being used in all kinds of animal foods it was found to be harmful. The typical response is that K3 is banned in some countries, and that is true but so is K1 and K2 due to abuse in the supplement market.


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> No...not even close. Wheat has the greatest probability among grains but nowhere near common animal proteins like chicken, beef, eggs and dairy.
> 
> Vitamin K3 fear has to be the most absurd of all the internet rumors, all started by a person that has a website and the some kind of 6 month animal health certificate. It is all based on a study where rats were INJECTED with 6,000 times the amount of K3 they would normally EAT.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the info. Do you possibly have links referring to the rat study?
Also-- in the RC formula they use citric acid. What about the correlation between citric acid and bloat?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

seta said:


> Thanks for the info. Do you possibly have links referring to the rat study?
> Also-- in the RC formula they use citric acid. What about the correlation between citric acid and bloat?


http://www.azmira.com/support/article-the-latest-scare-menadione-k3.pdf

There is no link to citric acid. Later studies showed no link but it is possible wetting the food caused the higher bloat risk found in the first study. Royal Canin uses it as you said, and they would have the best handle on whether it raised the risk.

Wetting food actually increases bloat risk, but you wouldn't know that reading the internet.


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> http://www.azmira.com/support/article-the-latest-scare-menadione-k3.pdf
> 
> There is no link to citric acid. Later studies showed no link but it is possible wetting the food caused the higher bloat risk found in the first study. Royal Canin uses it as you said, and they would have the best handle on whether it raised the risk.
> 
> Wetting food actually increases bloat risk, but you wouldn't know that reading the internet.


 Ok thanks for the info!
Does pro plan or RC have any chicken/egg free formulas?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Yes. Pro Plan Select Sensitive Skin & Stomach.

For some its a life saver and it can be fed to all dogs.


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## ringohop (Oct 5, 2013)

Does anyone know the ash levels in any or all of Dr. Tim's foods?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

ringohop said:


> Does anyone know the ash levels in any or all of Dr. Tim's foods?


Low, 7% to less than 6% and without any vegetable protein boosters like most other foods.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> The above is just plain silly. When you see people refer to XXX as being the Xth ingredient its obvious they don't know what they are talking about.
> 
> As for Pro Plan, the results speak for them self. It is on my short-list of foods due to results and the safety of using it.


You're correct I am not educated in pet nutrition. I have stated that in the past and I am stating it again ... I have nothing to hide. I am just a typical dog owner who has seen your posts and see you contradict yourself in them so ...

Dr. Tim's PhD has decided to NOT include the corn as you suggest is a good thing. Apparently that PhD and Dr. Tim decided that corn shouldn't be used in their foods. And Anamaet doesn't either, so if the two top foods by you don't use corn why are you touting corn as great?

In the reference in the numerical places where corn was listed in Purina Pro Sport I didn't say anything about their location on the list in reference to them being bad, just they were in 3 places 4th, 6th & 7th. But you said Champion food was bad because it did ingredient splitting - Purina in this food is doing the same thing ... that's my point! Isn't ingredient splitting the same in all foods? I would think so.

Is it true that when you add all the same ingredients because they were split it can come out to more than originally stated? If the answer is yes, then isn't also true that it could push the ingredient higher up on the list.

But that brings me to the point of the fact that listing something as xxx on the list is the wrong way to look at ingredients. In all my reading, the information has all stated that on dog food labels the ingredients need to be listed in the weight order with heaviest 1st before cooking. So with that said, chicken meal should be the first ingredient not the last. So you are 100% wrong in stating that where an ingredient is doesn't matter and people who read labels are stupid. Maybe I don't know what you know but I certainly want to see a meat meal such as chicken or beef in the first spot vs corn or anything else.

Why do you say that a certain food is good and then in 2 other threads say 1) the food is high in ash and 2) people shouldn't feed foods high in ash. With all the "knowledge" that you have and with people looking for advice you flip flop. You may have your opinions on what is good/great food but at least stick to your advice. How can an high ash food be good if you shouldn't feed high ash foods?

And finally, and this is just my opinion. There is a lot of money at stake at the level of the Westminster Dog Show. Purina has a high stake in it and I would imagine that the breeders get more than a discount winning and being able to say my dog was fed Purina. I am sure the millions that Purina pays to sponsor it comes back to them 10 fold. Professional sports teams pay their athletes a ton of money because they bring in even more money for the owners and we all know what kind of performance enhancing drugs some professional players take. To say that all breeders will do the right thing for their dogs is a bunch of crap. At that level some probably only care about what do they get out of winning it. But again, it's just my opinion.

I am just a dog owner. I want to feed my dog as good of food as I can get for a certain price. I believe in questioning people to see how they answer, I saw how you answered. I said my last on this.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I am somewhat curious about supplements, etc, are added to these foods as well, for both racing sled dogs, show dogs, etc. I've always heard that most everyone supplements with something, whether it's to increase coat shine, or give more fat, etc.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> I am somewhat curious about supplements, etc, are added to these foods as well, for both racing sled dogs, show dogs, etc. I've always heard that most everyone supplements with something, whether it's to increase coat shine, or give more fat, etc.


Just for poops and giggles a while back I wrote to the top four finishers at this year's Iditarod. It's been asserted by someone that when looking at foods we should look at what those at the top of their sports are doing/feeding. What I found most interesting (beyond the brands that they named) was that ALL of them supplemented heavily (in 3 cases 50% of daily food by weight) with fresh/real meat.

Something else to think about. Purina is also a marketing company...the percentage of their budget spent on marketing is astronomical compared to most other companies. Maybe SD comes close. The ads they run touting champions of this or that eating Purina products never claim that the dogs eat solely Purina or even primarily Purina products. For all we know they could be eating training treats made by Purina or just get Purina kibble put in their bowls on competition days. I also happen to know that one of those past winners has never eaten ANYTHING by Purina. I won't speculate how it came to be claimed otherwise. This personal knowledge makes it prudent to be skeptical of the accuracy of the rest of the claims as well.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Emmett said:


> Just for poops and giggles a while back I wrote to the top four finishers at this year's Iditarod. It's been asserted by someone that when looking at foods we should look at what those at the top of their sports are doing/feeding. What I found most interesting (beyond the brands that they named) was that ALL of them supplemented heavily (in 3 cases 50% of daily food by weight) with fresh/real meat.
> 
> Something else to think about. Purina is also a marketing company...the percentage of their budget spent on marketing is astronomical compared to most other companies. Maybe SD comes close. The ads they run touting champions of this or that eating Purina products never claim that the dogs eat solely Purina or even primarily Purina products. For all we know they could be eating training treats made by Purina or just get Purina kibble put in their bowls on competition days. I also happen to know that one of those past winners has never eaten ANYTHING by Purina. I won't speculate how it came to be claimed otherwise. This personal knowledge makes it prudent to be skeptical of the accuracy of the rest of the claims as well.


I believe Dr. Tim's has had 7 - 8 teams finish in the top ten in the past two years with back to back wins.

The other top foods are Red Paw and Eagle.

Yes, they generally do supplement with raw meat 30% - 50% but do the math on the relative contribution of nutrition when raw meat is only 20% dry matter. Kibble still provides 84% of the nutrition when 50% the diet by weight is raw meat.

The raw meat supplementation provides a way to hydrate the dogs.

Pro Plan is used well beyond the dogs that show up in the ads about show dogs. The sporting organizations do their own surveys and with the retrievers, Pro Plan is fed to 90% of the dogs receiving the top awards like AKC Master Hunter.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Bumper- one of my dogs is undoubtably allergic to chicken/turkey/duck.

As in feed a food with that in it, and two hours later he has hives and is chewing his paws raw.

What food would you feed, if you had to feed a "fish" food?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Bumper- one of my dogs is undoubtably allergic to chicken/turkey/duck.
> 
> As in feed a food with that in it, and two hours later he has hives and is chewing his paws raw.
> 
> What food would you feed, if you had to feed a "fish" food?


Prolly Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach because of availability and price. I can get Annamaet Aqualuk for $60 a bag but you are in the south so I doubt you can get it at the store. It is very expensive on-line.

Others are, Nutro and Holisitic Select Sardine and Anchovy.


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## seta (Oct 8, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Prolly Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach because of availability and price. I can get Annamaet Aqualuk for $60 a bag but you are in the south so I doubt you can get it at the store. It is very expensive on-line.
> 
> Others are, Nutro and Holisitic Select Sardine and Anchovy.


 That's what I've been using with great success (Holistic Select). It works very well on my dog who is also sensitive to poultry. The grain inclusive does have egg (I believe) but the grain free has no egg. Bought a big bag today after using a small bag as a test. Awesome food


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> Prolly Pro Plan Sensitive Skin & Stomach because of availability and price. I can get Annamaet Aqualuk for $60 a bag but you are in the south so I doubt you can get it at the store. It is very expensive on-line.
> 
> Others are, Nutro and Holisitic Select Sardine and Anchovy.


Why does PPSSS have to use freakin "animal fat"? I know that isn't all fish based.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Why does PPSSS have to use freakin "animal fat"? I know that isn't all fish based.


"Animal Fat" is just PP's own mixture of chicken, pork and beef fats. The company is just following the labeling rules.


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

Rescued said:


> Bumper- one of my dogs is undoubtably allergic to chicken/turkey/duck.
> 
> As in feed a food with that in it, and two hours later he has hives and is chewing his paws raw.
> 
> What food would you feed, if you had to feed a "fish" food?


I have a dog like this, too. Can you get Victor grain free salmon? California Natural grain free Salmon and Peas works for my allergic to almost everything dog, as does Back to Basics grain free Pork. None of these foods has any fowl/eggs in them.


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Well, this has made an interesting read.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Dog Person said:


> Ingredients
> Chicken, brewers rice, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of Vitamin E), whole grain corn, corn germ meal, brewers dried yeast, fish meal (natural source of glucosamine), animal digest, fish oil, dried egg product, wheat bran, calcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, Vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, L-Lysine monohydrochloride, manganese sulfate, niacin, calcium carbonate, Vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, thiamine mononitrate, copper sulfate, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, garlic oil, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, calcium iodate, biotin, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.
> 
> So the little that I know - the stuff in red are low level ingredients that based on internet research you shouldn't feed; the cyan color is for stuff that is ingredient splitting and the lime is all corn and ingredient splitting - looks pretty bad to me but what do I know.


I know by my dog,he does as well on Pro plan sport as Taste of the wild and Wilderness. Energy,health,coat,skin,poop all the same. It also doesn't cost $60.00 a month for a medium-large dog like the others do.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Foresthund said:


> I know by my dog,he does as well on Pro plan sport as Taste of the wild and Wilderness. Energy,health,coat,skin,poop all the same. It also doesn't cost $60.00 a month for a medium-large dog like the others do.


In the long run his health will be better on Pro Plan.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Foresthund said:


> I know by my dog,he does as well on Pro plan sport as Taste of the wild and Wilderness. Energy,health,coat,skin,poop all the same. It also doesn't cost $60.00 a month for a medium-large dog like the others do.


The first priority is that your dog IS doing good on it!

I have a 35 lb. dog eating 1 1/3 to 1 1/2 cups of food a day of 405 kcal/cup dog kibble. All the kibbles listed are higher Kcal/cup than what I am feeding so I am making assumptions on your medium to large dog

But I just need to respond to this ... Over at Chewy'. com the price for Purina Sport 30/20 is $1.344/lb. for the 37.5 lb. bag. The price for Annamaet Ultra 32% is $1.75/lb. for a 40 lb. bag. The price for Dr. Tim's Momentum is $1.85/lb. for a 40 lb. bag. The price difference between the highest and lowest is $0.506/lb.; there is approximately 4 cups to 1 lb. of dog food so in a 40 lb. bag there is approximate 80 cups of food; assuming 2 cups of food a day and 30 days that is 60 cups; so 60 cups/4 cups/lb. = 15 lbs. of food per month x $1.85 = $27.75 vs. Purina Sport that would be 15 x $1.344 = $20.16. Neither is near $60 per month.

If you live near a Tractor Supply then 4Health Performance can be had for $1.00 a lb. (at least by me) for the 40 lb. bag.

Have you tried any of the other foods I mentioned? If not, how do you know that your dogs won't do as well or better? Of course if you did try them and your dog didn't do so well then Purina Sport is the way to go.

I believe none of the foods mentioned other than Purina Sport contain corn, poultry by-products or unnamed animal fat. All those ingredients do provide protein, bumper1 is going to discredit me by saying I know nothing so I will beat him/her to the punch - I know nothing about nutrition. But from everything I've read on the internet which is the only "education" I have in this subject you want to stay with named proteins, not generic proteins.

Look at the websites for the two "best" per Bumper1 and they very well may be the best - they aren't using corn gluten meal, whole ground corn or any of the other items I pointed out as being "bad". Forget where they are on the list but the fact that they are being used. Purina, SD and all companies are in it for the money.

Also ask yourself if the raw feeders are putting corn or any other filler in their foods to make up the protein vs. meat. I feed kibble so I can't answer that

The fact that your dogs health will do well on it means that you should be buying Science Diet because your dog's doctor sells it but we all pretty much know how good it really is.

BTW, when a few years ago when the dog food industry had a food scare my last dog was on Science Diet and I was so happy they weren't affected during that recall ... I have no clue whether Purina was affected or not.

Just giving people something to think about ...


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

First, Pro Plan is about $1lb - $1.25lb at a feed store. Second, Annamaet Ultra is $55 a bag at the store, or $1.40lb, Dr. Tim's Pursuit is $1.50lb online. Momentum is a 35/25 so you can't compare it.

Named proteins are no better than a mix. Poultry Meal and Poultry By Product meal are made from chickens and turkey and nothing else. The rules require you to state a mix of chicken and turkey as "poultry". Chickens and turkey are processed at the same plants so they just mix the stuff together. There is no other bird raised at a commercial level large enough to supply pet food companies. If you think Purina just buys "poultry meal" not knowing what's in it or know the exact specifications you are crazy. They tell the suppliers what to mix, not the other way. By the way, "Meat Meal" is a mix of beef and pork. 

You could argue that by--products are actually better than the average chicken or turkey meal. Annamaet & Dr. Tim's use the highest quality and lowest ash Chicken Meal but not everyone does, so by-product meal is better.

Chicken, Turkey or Poultry by-product meal contains organs, meat, skin & feet, no heads or feathers or much bone. It is very high in amino acids and very low in ash. Highly, highly digestible and much more palatable.

Ask yourself, is there any part of a chicken your dog shouldn't eat, no...

Also be aware, chicken and turkey are the only two ingredients where a distinction is made between meat and everything else, or by-products.

Fish, lamb, beef, bison and pork do not have to label "by-products" as anything but "lamb meal", "bison meal", "pork meal" etc.

Pro Plan just works and works well plain and simple....dogs thrive on it, perform great on it and look fabulous. I know countless people that always go back to it. I don't use it now but its on the shortlist and would use PP Sport in a heartbeat.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> "Animal Fat" is just PP's own mixture of chicken, pork and beef fats. The company is just following the labeling rules.


Right, but my point is that my dog allergic to chicken really shouldn't have chicken fat in his food.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Rescued said:


> Right, but my point is that my dog allergic to chicken really shouldn't have chicken fat in his food.



Here's a food: http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/sto...fish--potato-formula-for-adult-dogs-30-lb-bag don't know ash

Diamond has a few: http://www.diamondpet.com/products/which_formula/adult_dog/ don't know ash

Victor also has one in their grain free: http://www.victordogfood.com/ but it has 8.24% ash.

Nutrisca has one and it is about 4% ash: http://nutrisca.dogswell.com/salmon.html

Orijen has it: http://www.orijen.ca/blog/products/dry-dog-food/six-fish-dog/ Orijen apparently has high ash as well

Hope this helps.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Right, but my point is that my dog allergic to chicken really shouldn't have chicken fat in his food.


This is easily the most widely used and one of the most effective foods for sensitive dogs. I wouldn't worry about chicken fat because it doesn't contain chicken protein. In order to be used to make kibble the fat is filtered and purified and by definition is 100% fat, thus no protein.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

My dog gets ear infections when he eats whole sardines. He also reacts a little to fish oil that contains sardine oil. I'd stay away from chicken fat too.

Please more information to reassure us that animal fat and meal used by Pro Plan is a mix of pork, beef and chicken from slaughterhouses rather than the animal fat and meals produced by 4D rendering plants.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> My dog gets ear infections when he eats whole sardines. He also reacts a little to fish oil that contains sardine oil. I'd stay away from chicken fat too.
> 
> Please more information to reassure us that animal fat and meal used by Pro Plan is a mix of pork, beef and chicken from slaughterhouses rather than the animal fat and meals produced by 4D rendering plants.


Ok if you do the same for Champion Foods. How does anyone know unless they go there. Do you really believe a company like Champion?


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Rescued said:


> Right, but my point is that my dog allergic to chicken really shouldn't have chicken fat in his food.


Try Annamaet Option...

My dog did amazing on it, and will probably go back to it. She's not a sensitive dog (no allergies that i know of) but she loved it and her coat and stools were phenomenal on it.

My frenchie eats the Annamaet Aqualuk, and his coat has improved so much compared to when he was on premade raw.

Option Ingredient List:

Salmon Meal, Brown Rice, Venison Meal, Millet, Rolled Oats, Pearled Barley, Canola Oil, Menhaden Oil (Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)), Dried Tomato Pomace, Flax Seed Meal, Carrot, Celery, Parsley, Lettuce, Watercress, Spinach, Lecithin, Salt, DL Methionine, L-Lysine, Propionic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of Vitamin C), Niacin Supplement, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate, L-Carnitine, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid, Choline Chloride, Potassium Chloride, Zinc Proteinate, Betaine Anhydrous, Iron Proteinate, Selenium Yeast, Copper Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Calcium Iodate.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> Ok if you do the same for Champion Foods. How does anyone know unless they go there. Do you really believe a company like Champion?


But we're not talking about champion, we're talking about purina. Is there a source to back up this statement?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

you all need to stop worrying about silly things


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## domika (Jul 1, 2012)

Rescued said:


> But we're not talking about champion, we're talking about purina. Is there a source to back up this statement?


 No need to be rude...


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

domika said:


> No need to be rude...


I don't think Rescued was being rude at all. 

For one, I am interested in hearing Bumper1's reply, and it seems kind of odd that they've apparently refused to give one.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

When I read policy like this I wonder what unnamed 'meat' is. What unnamed 'animal fat' really is. Sure Purina talks a good talk but us consumers want to know. Please give us some reassurance Bumper1.

Not fat but meat.
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074710.htm
"The pet food canning industry utilizes undecomposed animal and marine tissues from various sources. These include products of the rendering industry such as various meat, poultry, and bone meals; meat scraps and offal from packing house waste, freshly boned-out animals; and occasionally meat from animals that may have died otherwise than by slaughter."

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074712.htmNot fat but meat.
http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074710.htm
"The pet food canning industry utilizes undecomposed animal and marine tissues from various sources. These include products of the rendering industry such as various meat, poultry, and bone meals; meat scraps and offal from packing house waste, freshly boned-out animals; and occasionally meat from animals that may have died otherwise than by slaughter."

http://www.fda.gov/ICECI/ComplianceManuals/CompliancePolicyGuidanceManual/ucm074712.htm

As well as picking up 4D animals and processing leftovers from stores rendering plants provide the valuable service of cleaning grease traps and picking up used cooking fat. I don't want that recycled stuff in my pet food. http://www.griffinind.com/animal_by-product_removal_services.php http://www.griffinind.com/bakery_feeds_collection_services.php GI is the company that was providing Champion with chicken meal back when the Australia thing was going on.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

domika said:


> No need to be rude...


I am truly curious to hear your reply on what you found rude about Rescued's post. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## domika (Jul 1, 2012)

Sorry guys, it was early in the morning and I just woke up and browse the forums for breakfast. I meant to reply to Bumper's post. My apologies Rescued.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

domika said:


> Sorry guys, it was early in the morning and I just woke up and browse the forums for breakfast. I meant to reply to Bumper's post. My apologies Rescued.


No hard feelings! I am still curious about the sources for Bumper1's assertions regarding the makeup of the PP foods though.

Bumper, anything?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Rescued said:


> No hard feelings! I am still curious about the sources for Bumper1's assertions regarding the makeup of the PP foods though.
> 
> Bumper, anything?


I am under no obligation to prove anything to you. You have Labs go to a field trial and ask Lab experts. 

Your sense of logic is quite weird.

Have you ever seen the press release where Champion's supplier of fish called what they sell Champion "by-products" and that they use to throw it in the garbage before selling it to Champion?


*"Freshwater Fish is always looking to expand its market 
reach and to strengthen existing markets – even non-human 
ones! We recently signed an exclusive arrangement with Alberta- 
based Champion Petfoods, whereby we sell all minced 
by-products to them and they in turn buy all the product 
we have to offer. We began working with Champion in 2005 when we 
sent them samples of minced by-products for testing after 
it was extracted from fish during the filleting process. Prior 
to sending the product to Alberta, we had been paying to 
have the waste trucked to a rendering facility in Winnipeg. 
After the samples were tested by Champion, a product was 
developed that met their high quality specifications. 
This business brings in several hundred thousand dollars 
in revenue for a product that previously cost us money to 
dispose of – and we’re thrilled to be building on a relationship 
that dates back more than five years."
*

Here you go....


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

So we take on your word and your word alone that the meat meal and meat fat used in some of the foods you suggest are fine and wholesome?

I am just fine with by products. My dogs eat a whole lot of the stuff fresh frozen. It is how the stuff is obtained and stored before and after processing that concerns me as well as the actual composition of it. Lots of full intestines the dog cannot reject not so good. Not crazy about feeding the grit and corn inside chicken gizzards, I clean those before giving to Max - he will clean them himself but it gets messy. Champion's supplier is sending over fresh stuff from fished human grade fish, not dead fish cleaned up from the shoreline.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> So we take on your word and your word alone that the meat meal and meat fat used in some of the foods you suggest are fine and wholesome?
> 
> I am just fine with by products. My dogs eat a whole lot of the stuff fresh frozen. It is how the stuff is obtained and stored before and after processing that concerns me as well as the actual composition of it. Lots of full intestines the dog cannot reject not so good. Not crazy about feeding the grit and corn inside chicken gizzards, I clean those before giving to Max - he will clean them himself but it gets messy. Champion's supplier is sending over fresh stuff from fished human grade fish, not dead fish cleaned up from the shoreline.


Yes rationalize any bad news or truth's about Champion. I wouldn't expect otherwise from some. How do you explain when Michigan State found BHA/BHT in Champion's foods?

The proof that Pro Plan is a high quality food is evident in the people that use it, plain and simple. Pro Plan has never had a recall and if what you think is true there would be no way to keep it a secret.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

My googlefu is weak this morning. Could you post a link to the BHA/BHT and Michigan State information? All I am seeing is posters on forums referring to this plus some more credible posts referring to an interview with somebody actually at Champion during the cat food/Australia fiasco but no actual information. The chicken meal Champion used at that time from a US source was contaminated? My understanding is Champion used Griffin Industry products. Is that it?


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Why is there all this stuff about Champion? I don't even freakin feed Champion foods...

It just is a bit strange that you made this important assertion and can't back it up...

Strange... as in makes you seem like not such a valid source of truthful information.

Edit: I am speaking specifically as to wanting a source for this statement:



> "Animal Fat" is just PP's own mixture of chicken, pork and beef fats.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Why is there all this stuff about Champion? I don't even freakin feed Champion foods...
> 
> It just is a bit strange that you made this important assertion and can't back it up...
> 
> ...


Because that is what it is. I have known a few of their field reps for close to 20 years. When you mix fats for a certain fatty acid profile that is what the law says you call it "animal fat". 

What is your problem? Do you really think the most prominent pet food company in the world would use fat from road kills and diseased animals? Are you joking? Be real now. Dogs worth ten of thousands of dollars eat Pro Plan. Are their owners idiots?

How do you know the "chicken fat" in the food you feed is from non-diseased chickens? Just because its says "chicken fat" it is better? Is the name a guaranty of quality? How do you know the "chicken fat" in your food is not from chickens with Exotic Newcastle Disease? Because of the name?

Just because you read this nonsense about "unnamed" ingredients on the internet doesn't mean it is true. It is a labeling technicality.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> Because that is what it is. I have known a few of their field reps for close to 20 years. When you mix fats for a certain fatty acid profile that is what the law says you call it "animal fat".
> 
> What is your problem? Do you really think the most prominent pet food company in the world would use fat from road kills and diseased animals? Are you joking? Be real now. Dogs worth ten of thousands of dollars eat Pro Plan. Are their owners idiots?
> 
> ...


Well... I don't have a problem, and I never said any of that 

I just found it amusing that you had (have?) no evidence to back up your assertation.

(also*gasp* I fed proplan for a few years. I never said it was crap food, never said people that feed it are idiots. I did say I would like a source for your information  )

(also, gasp, the organization I worked with has been using purina products for close to sixty years now. I have no issue with purina, and no issue with using it for dogs that do well on it. It just so happens that my last two didn't.)


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

It is perfectly easy for rendering companies to design products with particular fatty acid profiles. Griffin Industries does so with grease trap leavings and used cooking oil.
http://www.griffinind.com/spent_cooking_oil_removal_services.php

I haven't any problem feeding Pro Plan if my dog was fine with it. The only kibble with corn I ever fed caused enormous sweet smelling poop, never wanted to try any others.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I think I scared him away by wanting sources


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Kathyy said:


> It is perfectly easy for rendering companies to design products with particular fatty acid profiles. Griffin Industries does so with grease trap leavings and used cooking oil.
> http://www.griffinind.com/spent_cooking_oil_removal_services.php
> 
> I haven't any problem feeding Pro Plan if my dog was fine with it. The only kibble with corn I ever fed caused enormous sweet smelling poop, never wanted to try any others.


Wouldn't you be concerned that your dog won't be getting enough usable protein? That has been my argument the whole time. A food full of corn, soybeans, peas or what have you will show as a higher protein percentage but it's usability for the dog is not the same as meat. I am feeding Victor which claims that 75% of the protein comes from meat sources so 33% protein = 24.75% protein comes from meat. I am now transitioning to Annamaet 26% due to it's lower ash content but I am wondering how much of that 26% is from meat sources.

I found this: http://www.vetmed.vt.edu/vth/sa/clin/cp_handouts/Nutrition_Adult_Dog.pdf and this on Drs Fosters and Smiths that also talks of protein quality: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1659&aid=702 and this from petmd: http://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/evr_dg_focusing_on_protein_in_the_diet#.UmRxVrbD-Uk

Ironically, the last two are commercial sites and the last looks like it's a Hills sponsored website.

Anyway, I just thought I'd ask.


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