# Marker Training - should the marker / release words be different?



## nos (Aug 20, 2008)

Say I'm marker training with "YES" as my marker. By the nature of the technique, the marker becomes the release command (because it acts as the bridge to the reward). However, I still hear people like Ed Frawley at Leerburg saying to use "OK" as the release word.

Should "YES" and "OK" be distinct concepts from one another? If so, how should I use them in order to stress their distinction?

Seems like I could just release with "YES" and also praise.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

'Yes' should mark the beginning of an event (your target behavior), not the end. Whatever your dog does after you've marked it, that's what you wanted. This includes your dog walking away to go sniff another dog's butt. He's not disobeying you, he just hasn't learned where the behavior ends - you need to teach him this. This is where a release word comes in handy. Once you begin to proof the behavior, you need a cue to discriminate when the event has ended. 'Ok' can serve as this cue.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

The treat should not be used as a release....that is a bad habit to fall into. As you stated, the release word is the release....not the treat. If you keep pairing those two things you'll have some training issues.


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## ABC_DogTrainer (Aug 20, 2008)

TooneyDogs said:


> The treat should not be used as a release....that is a bad habit to fall into. As you stated, the release word is the release....not the treat. If you keep pairing those two things you'll have some training issues.


Yeah I completely agree with this. Another point I'll add is that your dog doesn't understand the english language. You can use whatever words you want for the marker and the release. But yes they should be two different words.


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## nos (Aug 20, 2008)

From http://leerburg.com/markers.htm:



> 2- YES - is the word we use as a positive marker. Its the word we use to bridge the time frame between a favorable behaviors and the delivery of a reward. This word is also used as a release command. This means the dog is finished with the exercise when we say "YES" and he can now focus on getting his reward - which is either a food treat or playing with a toy.


Still trying to understand this, then. Curbside - how does the marker _begin_ an event if you are using it as a bridge to a reward?

So should I _command_, YES, _release_, YES ?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

nos said:


> Curbside - how does the marker _begin_ an event if you are using it as a bridge to a reward?


The marker doesn't begin the event, your cue or lure does. Since the marker is paired with the primary reinforcer numerous times, the marker begins to function as the reinforcer. This is especially important when you begin to wean the dog off food. So once the dog begins to perform the desired behavior you mark it with your bridge word. Think of the bridge word as a snapshot in time when the correct behavior is occurring. Your criteria will dictate when to use the bridge word. 

For example if you're initially teaching sit, you would mark as soon as your dogs butt starts to drop to the floor, and reward when his butt is completely on the floor. But if you're teaching sit and hold it, you would mark when the dog's butt is on the ground and stays there for a few seconds, and reward after a few seconds more. This is how you build on a sit-stay. 



> So should I _command_, YES, _release_, YES ?


No, it would be cue or lure(C/L), bridge word(BW), C/L, BW, on and on until your through with training, and then the release word. The release word tells the dog _hey,_ _we're done with training, you're free to do as you please._ No need for the extra yes after the release. If after being released the dog decides to chew on your shoe and you say 'yes', well, you've just reinforced chewing on your shoe.


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## nos (Aug 20, 2008)

Thank you so much.

What if I want to release after a command? If I sit the dog, I assume I would need to release him from the sit otherwise he will learn to simply get up after a few seconds. So should I assign a word to command-release distinct from training-release?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

After you have the dog doing the desired behavior, you release the dog with a different word. I use "go ahead" tho most say "OK." 

When a dog has learned a behavior and there is a cue for it (such as 'sit') the dog should continue doing that behavior until given a diffferent behavior to do or released with a work such as 'ok.'

I started teaching the release word with the crate. Dog is NOT allowed out of the crate, even with the door open, until I say. If she went to release herself, I shut the crate door and turned my back to her until she sat quietly again. Most people think they have taught a release word until you have them do the crate thing.. then it becomes obvious which dogs know what the release word means. Those that don't either leave the crate when the door is opened (b4 the word is given) or stay in the crate after the word is given....

The release should be self rewarding and not require a food reward. That is what I have learned.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

nos said:


> What if I want to release after a command? If I sit the dog, I assume I would need to release him from the sit otherwise he will learn to simply get up after a few seconds. So should I assign a word to command-release distinct from training-release?


Sit is a good example of where the command, release word and treat reinforcement can go astray if not done correctly. For example: You give the command to Sit. The dog sits and you reinforce that sit with a treat and then release. 
Here's where the trouble comes....if the release word always follows the delivery of a treat, the treat itself becomes the release and the dog will break the sit before you've given the release word. 
Once that pattern is established (breaking on delivery of a trreat), the training (especially for stays) becomes harder.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

nos said:


> What if I want to release after a command? If I sit the dog, I assume I would need to release him from the sit otherwise he will learn to simply get up after a few seconds. So should I assign a word to command-release distinct from training-release?


I don't believe it's necessary to assign a different release word if you're looking at your training session as a bunch of little ones stacked together. I believe the dog will learn the pattern either way with enough repetitions. Personally, I don't want training time to compete with play time (my dog always wants to play after being released), though in the dog's mind I want training time to be play time. Exuberant play always wins in my home, I want it that way, but if she's focused on playing her game and not the training game I'm interested in, training proceeds slower. This is a personal choice, smarter trainers find ways to incorporate the dog's games into training, but I'm not always smart. Especially with some toy crazed dogs that I've met, keeping training,training and play, play is necessary. It may not be with your dog.

As Elena pointed to, there are many phases when teaching a behavior. These phases are determined by your criteria. If the dog knows the cue, he should continue performing the behavior until released - at least for static behaviors like sit and down. However, when you're initially teaching the behavior, your criteria won't be as high. It's okay if your dog's butt leaves the ground after you BW, you'll define the dog's performance when the dog is ready to be challenged further. So like I said earlier, everything you get after a click is what you wanted. If it's not, you need to reevaluate your mechanics and your criteria.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

TooneyDogs said:


> Sit is a good example of where the command, release word and treat reinforcement can go astray if not done correctly. For example: You give the command to Sit. The dog sits and you reinforce that sit with a treat and then release.
> Here's where the trouble comes....if the release word always follows the delivery of a treat, the treat itself becomes the release and the dog will break the sit before you've given the release word.
> Once that pattern is established (breaking on delivery of a trreat), the training (especially for stays) becomes harder.


Agree 100%. The thing to do is NOT release after every command success. Follow with another command (this is sfter the dog has reached proficiency at a few commands). This is also why it is important to increase the time which the dog must remain obedient to a command before release and is best used for static commands. The other thing tht is important is to "up the ante" on the behavior demanding more precision. 

As CP said, training should be fun for the dog.. like play. However, while my dog enjoys the training, she knows that the pressure is off when I tell her go ahead. Training IS stressful, even if the dog is having fun and frequent breaks, short sessions of 1-3 minutes and releases are important. 

We are working now at perfecting the By Me command which is like heel.. she is now expected to walk backward when I do and sit when I stop whether I walk backward or forward.. she loves it and gets all silly smiley when we do the backward thing.. and I release her from the walking backward WHILE walking backward, from the sit after we stop or from the walking forward after walking backward then forward with no stop and sit... The trick is to vary the release command and when it is given so that the dog doesn't anticipate. 

Anticipation is something horses do.. because a rider will ask for a canter from a walk (for instance) at the same corner or place in the ring or in a training pattern. Pretty soon the horse anticipates the command at that location and is now doing the command based on location as opposed to doing it based on your request (cue). Dogs will do the same thing. This is why it is the wise trainer who rewards at different times and intervals and releases at a varied schedule as well, especially after a behavior is established.


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## nos (Aug 20, 2008)

Excellent; thank you three very much, that was extremely helpful.


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