# Kylie: NTD.



## CptJack

Someone posted a link to Do More With Your Dog fairly recently, with information about trick dog titles. I checked it out and downloaded the application, thinking it was a pretty fun list of tricks to play with. 

Well, I actually sent in the application for the title, because I decided I wanted the certificates and pretty little collar charm. Apparently, I am a geek. I feel silly because unlike most titling programs there's no real verification, just an application with ticky boxes and a witness stating that they've seen you do the tricks (before the CH level). On the other? It's fun. 

With the way it's set up, and with what she already knows, we'll probably blow through and do the Intermediate and Advanced before we even start agility next month (she could have gotten intermediate now, with what's already there, but I don't really quite get how to do that one with the site - figured it out, so make that NTD/ITD with just where she was on the checklist.) I think she needs ONE more trick at an advanced/expert to get the advanced, but I'll probably grab a couple. Expert will obviously take longer she'll have to actually buckle down and learn more. Not sure if I care about the Ch thing, but maybe?

Meanwhile, I can collect certificates! Which is fun!

(I really need to get off my butt and do CGC for all of them. I just can't find anyone who does the testing that isn't at the end of an obedience class.)


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## CptJack

...I just realized I got excited about sticking some kind of titles on my dogs. I'm in trouble, aren't I?


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## GrinningDog

Very cool! I saw that link and was also quite interested. Keep us updated on how it goes with Kylie!

(And, um, I totally get your desire for titles to your dog's name. Heh heh. I'm feeling it too.)


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## CptJack

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Very cool! I saw that link and was also quite interested. Keep us updated on how it goes with Kylie!
> 
> (And, um, I totally get your desire for titles to your dog's name. Heh heh. I'm feeling it too.)


I don't know WHAT happened in my brain, but- It's suddenly a thing.

I did look through the list and realized even Jack can get an NTD with his basic obedience and house manners skills, so as a sort of courtesy to his breeder (and because it's cool) I went ahead and sent THAT in, too. He'll never go any further, though. But hey. It'll make him a Ch, U-WP, and NTD. 

And then I can get Bug and Thud. And do CGC for all four if I can find somewhere (though Jack and Kylie passing that is questionable - depends on what they mean by 'must not show shyness or resentment - does standing motionless and allowing it but not being happy count?), and and and. 

Yeah. It's suddenly a thing.


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## gingerkid

Awesome... I totally get it and when I have time, I am definitely going to look into it just for things to try!


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## CptJack

gingerkid said:


> Awesome... I totally get it and when I have time, I am definitely going to look into it just for things to try!


There is some interesting/fun stuff on there. I suspect a lot of the dogs owned by DF regulars would probably blow through it in no time. But it's a SUPER interesting list, with good ideas.


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## Canyx

I took the list and let them keep the titles 

But actually, I find it interesting how it's all based on Kyra Sundance's trick book. Don't get me wrong; she is an amazing trainer and all. But I am more impressed with kikopup's tricks, and some others trainers' over hers. I also don't like how a lot of the tricks require big props. I'm much more impressed with precision-type tricks (dog skipping with you, lifting different body parts, etc), or creative twists on simple tricks, than something like having your dog walk on a barrel.


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## CptJack

Canyx said:


> I took the list and let them keep the titles
> 
> But actually, I find it interesting how it's all based on Kyra Sundance's trick book. Don't get me wrong; she is an amazing trainer and all. But I am more impressed with kikopup's tricks, and some others trainers' over hers. I also don't like how a lot of the tricks require big props. I'm much more impressed with precision-type tricks (dog skipping with you, lifting different body parts, etc), or creative twists on simple tricks, than something like having your dog walk on a barrel.


I'm more impressed by things like dogs skipping, too, but to be honest that is so far outside something I could manage with my dogs. This is a lot of failing in me as far as training goes, but I wouldn't begin to be able to figure out how to get a dog to skip. Depending on what you mean by skip, I guess.

And it is definitely a money making thing, and generally pretty silly. I'm having fun with it, but I'm not unaware. Honestly, 'one witness who can live with you' is not observation. It's fun for me to have, for whatever reason since something in my brain broke (I think I decided to see it as A Challenge, or something), but I'm more impressed by Jack's weight pull thing.


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## Canyx

Skipping at around 1:32





That inspired me to teach it to Soro 
But actually, her entire video in general. Not many props at all, a lot of variations of basic behaviors, dogs that are clearly comfortable in different environments and with each other. And I want to say I FULLY support the trick title and I think it is a fantastic, low-key way of getting owners to do more with their dogs without investing the time and money on more 'commitment heavy' endeavors like agility or obedience. Just... it's hard for me to explain but something along the lines of when there is a title for something, there is a standard. And it's hard for me to imagine a standard for something as limitless as tricks


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## CptJack

Canyx said:


> Skipping at around 1:32
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That inspired me to teach it to Soro
> But actually, her entire video in general. Not many props at all, a lot of variations of basic behaviors, dogs that are clearly comfortable in different environments and with each other. And I want to say I FULLY support the trick title and I think it is a fantastic, low-key way of getting owners to do more with their dogs without investing the time and money on more 'commitment heavy' endeavors like agility or obedience. Just... it's hard for me to explain but something along the lines of when there is a title for something, there is a standard. And it's hard for me to imagine a standard for something as limitless as tricks


okay, yeah, I could conceivably teach Kylie that fairly well. Though I own I have a hard time with some tricks with her because of the stinking height difference. We teach on teh floor, then have to transition it to her performing when I stand up. Doesn't take long, but it's a bit of a pain in the... er, back, actually. Hazards of short dogs. Also, that is a stinking cute RT.

I think I like that the Ch version of the title requires a video be sent in. That's about it, for me. The rest is just - well, anything that encourages interaction and people playing with their dogs, I'm all for. Tricks being as low pressure and easy as they are, I find the idea FUN, but it's not something I'm taking too seriously. Kick out of titles ('titles?') or no. And while I'm really (reallyreallyreally) excited about doing those agility classes with K, I have a hard time imagining ME loving it enough to get too seriously into it. Mostly because I am not social and... the human socializing seems to be the draw for a lot of people when it comes to dog training.


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## Canyx

CptJack said:


> And while I'm really (reallyreallyreally) excited about doing those agility classes with K, I have a hard time imagining ME loving it enough to get too seriously into it. Mostly because I am not social and... the human socializing seems to be the draw for a lot of people when it comes to dog training.


Ha! Reminds me of a conversation I recently had with my freestyle instructor. I explained to her that I love training and tricks and have done agility casually in the past, but that dogs are only a part of my life and I never have been or will be interested in competing. She nodded in complete agreement and said something about how what I said was great because freestyle is not competition... Then followed up with how much she would love to see Soro and I compete. "Well, 'compete'," she corrected herself.
She said if I ever quit freestyle she would hunt me down. Ha haaa..... ha?


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## CptJack

Canyx said:


> Ha! Reminds me of a conversation I recently had with my freestyle instructor. I explained to her that I love training and tricks and have done agility casually in the past, but that dogs are only a part of my life and I never have been or will be interested in competing. She nodded in complete agreement and said something about how what I said was great because freestyle is not competition... Then followed up with how much she would love to see Soro and I compete. "Well, 'compete'," she corrected herself.
> She said if I ever quit freestyle she would hunt me down. Ha haaa..... ha?


Only being part of my life is a big part of it. It's moving on to the point where I can see them as sort of a hobby as well as part of the family/daily operation of our home, because doing Stuff With Them is a lot of fun for me, and for them. But they're also still not my only hobby. I have a husband. I work (admittedly from home). I game (which is social). I knit (which is sometimes social). I hike, which is again with them. I have a couple of kids. One of my kids is special needs (which is sometimes, unfortunately a social thing (I spend a lot of time in schools and doctor's offices). I may get bitten HARD by the bug and want to make a Thing Of It in some format, and I can see me eventually trying everything under the sun with Kylie, and being MORE interested when my eldest is out of the house (and at 14, that's coming), but at the same time...

I don't see me ever really seriously diving head first in and getting competitive about it. It's just... play. Even if I'm not as burned out on socialization then as I am now, I'm an introvert. I want to play with my dogs, a lot more than i want to play with other people.


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## LoMD13

I'm pretty much the same way, and I got bit by the agility bug with Lola. We "compete" in USDAA but just for funsies. It's just something fun to do once a week, and we go to a trial every couple of months. I don't really socialize all that much (at all?) at trials.


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## CptJack

LoMD13 said:


> I'm pretty much the same way, and I got bit by the agility bug with Lola. We "compete" in USDAA but just for funsies. It's just something fun to do once a week, and we go to a trial every couple of months. I don't really socialize all that much (at all?) at trials.


this makes me feel a LOT better.


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## LoMD13

CptJack said:


> this makes me feel a LOT better.


It's very easy to just set up your own little station (chair, crate) and just keep to yourself and watch the other dogs run until its your turn. I chatted a bit about the course with another girl from my class, but that was pretty much the extent of my socialization. 

I like it because it's just another training challenge. It's pretty easy for us to run in class, but trials are much, much more challenging.


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## lil_fuzzy

Way to go Kylie 

I'm planning to get some of the trick titles for my dogs too. Yes, I care about titles, which is why we'll also be competing in obedience and agility, but as long as we're all having fun, so what?  And it's also a way to challenge myself and the dogs.




Canyx said:


> I took the list and let them keep the titles
> 
> But actually, I find it interesting how it's all based on Kyra Sundance's trick book. Don't get me wrong; she is an amazing trainer and all. But I am more impressed with kikopup's tricks, and some others trainers' over hers. I also don't like how a lot of the tricks require big props. I'm much more impressed with precision-type tricks (dog skipping with you, lifting different body parts, etc), or creative twists on simple tricks, than something like having your dog walk on a barrel.


Yes, this is a bit strange. Another thing that's strange is that there's no explanation of what each trick is on the website, you have to buy the books to read about the tricks. So it's like the website/title thing is a way to get people to buy the books (which I won't be doing, I'll just do the tricks I know).


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## Canyx

YOU should start some trick training title lil_fuzzy! I'll send in an application for that


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## agility collie mom

I think that this a great. It gives the average dog owner an incentive to work toward a goal. Most of the "tricks" are basic obedience in the beginning. Sent this original link to the training director of my club. She has spoke to quite a few members and they are excited about earning titles. I think this is a win win situations. It makes the owner feel good (think carrot) it gives a dog skills for everyday manners. She is thinking of basing a class on this fun venue!


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## agility collie mom

You can find the books on half.com for minimal cost. The best one is the 101 dog tricks.


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## Canyx

The one thing that I found attractive was something about the highest 'certificate' of being qualified to teach tricks as an instructor. I think that would be fun to do! But I don't think getting that trick title alone would give you credibility, or would it?


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## lil_fuzzy

Canyx said:


> YOU should start some trick training title lil_fuzzy! I'll send in an application for that


You know, I could do that. I would do it better, I would have detailed descriptions of each trick and I will of course need demo videos of each trick  Hubby builds websites for a living, so I would have it up and running within days. Hmmmm........



agility collie mom said:


> I think that this a great. It gives the average dog owner an incentive to work toward a goal. Most of the "tricks" are basic obedience in the beginning. Sent this original link to the training director of my club. She has spoke to quite a few members and they are excited about earning titles. I think this is a win win situations. It makes the owner feel good (think carrot) it gives a dog skills for everyday manners. She is thinking of basing a class on this fun venue!


Oh yeah, I agree. Whatever the incentive it, it's great if people do more stuff with their dogs


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## Canyx

lil_fuzzy said:


> You know, I could do that. I would do it better, I would have detailed descriptions of each trick and I will of course need demo videos of each trick  Hubby builds websites for a living, so I would have it up and running within days. Hmmmm........


DO IT!
Make it hard! 
I will earn ALL THE TITLES and then put it on my resume, okay?


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## agility collie mom

See it sets a goal for you! You could teach tricks if you have taught your dog. Can you charge the going rate of a certified instructor, no. But are you helping others, yes. Dog Scouts http://dogscouts.org/ is another fun venue.


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## CptJack

Canyx said:


> The one thing that I found attractive was something about the highest 'certificate' of being qualified to teach tricks as an instructor. I think that would be fun to do! But I don't think getting that trick title alone would give you credibility, or would it?


Well. Credibility for what, exactly? Unlike some sports (agility comes to mind), working, or confirmation, it doesn't lead to breeding. It doesn't necessarily involve becoming a trainer. It's something people stick on their dog so they can say 'we did that!' (I can however say they do actually email witnesses for some kind of verificaiton)


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## Canyx

@agility collie mom, How would I start that? Like if I wanted to get a group together and I'll work on tricks with them for free? Do I just post a vid on craigslist and say, "This is my dog doing tricks. Meet at this park at this time if you want to learn!"?

Also, flipping through Dog Scouts. That's a great idea!


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## Canyx

I also want to add the disclaimer that I totally GET wanting to collect things; badges, titles, etc. I've logged in hundreds (HUNDREDS) of hours collecting things on video games. 380 hours for one Pokemon game (aaaand, how many versions are there?) to give one example. Collecting is an addiction I got out of. But yeah, still cool. I am slightly afraid that it would be all too easy for me to get back into it


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## agility collie mom

How about joining a dog meet up group in your area? Plus joining dog scouts is easy you can search of a troop via the web site in your area. We have a troop affiliated with the dog club I belong to. They do day trips and camps all is positive training.


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## agility collie mom

The difference is that you are doing something with your dog. Again win win situation! Right now I am building a flyball box for my dogs. We have an old one at the club and my dogs think it is super fun!! If they are having fun than I am having fun with them.


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## samshine

This thread about seeking titles reminded me of this short little essay that I just love, makes me tear up every time I read it. Beautiful.

"What is an Obedience Title, Really?
by Sandy Mowry

A title is not just a brag, not just a stepping stone to a higher title, not just an adjunct to competitive scores, a title is a tribute to the dog that bears it, a way to honor the dog, an ultimate memorial. It will remain in the record and in the memory for about as long as anything in the world can remain. And though the dog herself doesn't know or care that her achievements have been noted, a title says many things in the world of humans where such things count.

A title says your dog was intelligent, adaptable, and good-natured. It says your dog loved you enough to do the things that pleased you, however crazy they may have seemed. In addition, a title says that you loved your dog, that you loved to spend time with her because she was a good dog, and that you believed in her enough to give her yet another chance when she failed, and in the end your faith was justified.

A title proves that your dog inspired you to that special relationship, enjoyed by so few, that in a world of disposable creatures, this dog with a title was greatly loved and loved greatly in return. 

And when that dear, short life is over, the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend. Volumes of praise in one small set of initials after the name. An obedience, or herding title is nothing less than true love and respect, given and recorded permanently."


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## CptJack

samshine said:


> This thread about seeking titles reminded me of this short little essay that I just love, makes me tear up every time I read it. Beautiful.
> 
> "What is an Obedience Title, Really?
> by Sandy Mowry
> 
> A title is not just a brag, not just a stepping stone to a higher title, not just an adjunct to competitive scores, a title is a tribute to the dog that bears it, a way to honor the dog, an ultimate memorial. It will remain in the record and in the memory for about as long as anything in the world can remain. And though the dog herself doesn't know or care that her achievements have been noted, a title says many things in the world of humans where such things count.
> 
> A title says your dog was intelligent, adaptable, and good-natured. It says your dog loved you enough to do the things that pleased you, however crazy they may have seemed. In addition, a title says that you loved your dog, that you loved to spend time with her because she was a good dog, and that you believed in her enough to give her yet another chance when she failed, and in the end your faith was justified.
> 
> A title proves that your dog inspired you to that special relationship, enjoyed by so few, that in a world of disposable creatures, this dog with a title was greatly loved and loved greatly in return.
> 
> And when that dear, short life is over, the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend. Volumes of praise in one small set of initials after the name. An obedience, or herding title is nothing less than true love and respect, given and recorded permanently."



Thank you, for posting this. I've been struggling all day with why I am so excited by the idea of being able to put some kind of titles on my dogs. I knew it wasn't braggy pride, and it DEFINITELY wasn't competitiveness but I couldn't figure out what it WAS.

This, I think, is it.


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## Canyx

Lovely post! And I do appreciate the sentiment, especially for those who get drawn too much into competition and lose sight of the true goal.
Yet, and I apologize if this sounds overly cynical as I don't mean for it to be, the little voice in the back of my mind thinks, "what is that saying for people who don't title their dogs?" I KNOW that it's not what the writing implies, nor does it say "everyone needs to title their dogs or else they are inadequate!" But still, phrases like "the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend" does leave a slight feeling that those who don't pursue these things fail to provide their dogs the _finest_ memorials, doesn't quite give the _best you can give_ to a deserving friend.


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## CptJack

Canyx said:


> Lovely post! And I do appreciate the sentiment, especially for those who get drawn too much into competition and lose sight of the true goal.
> Yet, and I apologize if this sounds overly cynical as I don't mean for it to be, the little voice in the back of my mind thinks, "what is that saying for people who don't title their dogs?" I KNOW that it's not what the writing implies, nor does it say "everyone needs to title their dogs or else they are inadequate!" But still, phrases like "the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend" does leave a slight feeling that those who don't pursue these things fail to provide their dogs the _finest_ memorials, doesn't quite give the _best you can give_ to a deserving friend.



I think it's more that the title is a way of recording that, yes, I did things with my dog and my dog was wonderful and we did Things Together. It's not a personal kind of memorial, actually, at least in my head. More... a public one, and I honestly can't think of another way to have that for a dog.


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## Canyx

Public acknowledgements of your dogs achievements? I feel like posting a video on youtube, sharing a photo album, and many other methods might have the same effect. To use kikopup as an example again, I can relate more to her, know more of her, and have more respect for her than I do (insert legendary dog trainer here). Funny thing is when I talk to accredited trainers in real life (and I know that kikopup aka Emily is an accredited trainer in real life) they have no idea who she is. For the record, I do disagree with some of what she says; her words and videos aren't my bible. But her work and achievements with her dogs are the very definition of public, IMO. And if her dogs have titles I don't know of them. Seeing what she does with her dogs speaks more to me than any letters ever would. 

But I still want to be the first to congratulate Kylie when she gets her NTD!


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## CptJack

She actually got NTD and ITD and is already up on the site. JACK managed an NTD with what he already knows, though, and I want those certificates for MY scrapbook, dang it. 

I guess. It feels different to me, somehow, but I also DON"T post to youtube and have no real desire to, that way. Youtube for me is just a mess of videos, some with dogs and some with not, some memorials, some training, some dogs being silly and I'm sure they mean different things to different people, but to me it's not really a... record of anything. Though no, not public acknowledgement. public RECORD, with a dog specific identity, recognizing specific things that a dog could do, related to that thing. Even just that it was THERE. I don't feel much differently about Jack's OFA results, in a way, or his name on another dog's pedigree. It makes them... less anonymous, in some way I can't really define. 

Different people and feelings, I think. This one I get.


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## TorachiKatashi

Whoo hoo, go Kylie!

I think my favourite part of the trick training is that is can be beneficial regardless of whether or not someone intends to get into more "competitive" sports. It's a fun way to work the brain of a dog who does not otherwise work in a sport, but it's also great for working dogs in that it's a low-pressure way to get them started in shaping. The more things you dog has learned, the easier time they will have learning the next thing, and I think a dog can never learn too many things. Whenever I have a student who is stressing out over trying to do something perfectly and getting it wrong, and I ask them how many things they've taught their dog to do just for fun, without worrying about losing points or being disqualified, and the answer usually varies between "a few" and "what do you mean?"

As a side note, I'm pretty sure that even if a CGC test is being held at the end of a series of classes, it still has to be open to the public. They can't hold a test JUST for people who took the class.



Canyx said:


> The one thing that I found attractive was something about the highest 'certificate' of being qualified to teach tricks as an instructor. I think that would be fun to do! But I don't think getting that trick title alone would give you credibility, or would it?


You do have to get an ITD before you can apply, but there's a whole lot of hoops to jump through after that. You need to write a whole exam and answer a bunch of essay questions and video tape you training different dogs in a bunch of different scenarios. I'm hoping I'll have myself all squared away to be able to teach a novice class for the Fall season.

As far as the type of tricks; I can't say for sure, but I'm fairly certain that you can request points for your own tricks that aren't on the list. You'd probably have to e-mail them and let them decide which difficulty level it would fall under. I know the application does have a space for an "Extra Credit Trick."

The reason there are so many props I assume stems from her and her dogs work as public performers. They do a lot of circus tricks and such. I agree, though, that'd I'd like to see a greater variety of tricks that didn't require having access to large props and Agility equipment.

The books are fine, I do own them all, but I don't really use them very often; usually just to clarify the criteria for a particular trick. The books use a loooot of luring which I do not use at all, but so far I haven't come across a trick that couldn't just as easily if not more easily be taught with shaping.


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## Canyx

CptJack said:


> Different people and feelings, I think. This one I get.


Completely! And I will say no more on the subject. Except CONGRATS on her NTD and I'm sure she'll get her ITD and beyond with no trouble at all!


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## CptJack

TorachiKatashi said:


> As a side note, I'm pretty sure that even if a CGC test is being held at the end of a series of classes, it still has to be open to the public. They can't hold a test JUST for people who took the class.


This? Is something I'm going to check out and has the potential to make my life a lot easier. Thank you!


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## TorachiKatashi

CptJack said:


> This? Is something I'm going to check out and has the potential to make my life a lot easier. Thank you!


Derp, sorry. I just double checked the rulebook (which I probably should have done before I opened my mouth,) and it looks like I might be wrong.

That's a stupid rule, though.


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## CptJack

TorachiKatashi said:


> Derp, sorry. I just double checked the rulebook (which I probably should have done before I opened my mouth,) and it looks like I might be wrong.
> 
> That's a stupid rule, though.


Eh, I'll eventually suck it up and wade through. It's a nice thing to HAVE and I WANT it, but it's not really a requirement for anything I'm likely to do and I don't need it for a 'doggie resume' since we own our home, at least.


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## lil_fuzzy

samshine said:


> This thread about seeking titles reminded me of this short little essay that I just love, makes me tear up every time I read it. Beautiful.
> 
> "What is an Obedience Title, Really?
> by Sandy Mowry
> 
> A title is not just a brag, not just a stepping stone to a higher title, not just an adjunct to competitive scores, a title is a tribute to the dog that bears it, a way to honor the dog, an ultimate memorial. It will remain in the record and in the memory for about as long as anything in the world can remain. And though the dog herself doesn't know or care that her achievements have been noted, a title says many things in the world of humans where such things count.
> 
> A title says your dog was intelligent, adaptable, and good-natured. It says your dog loved you enough to do the things that pleased you, however crazy they may have seemed. In addition, a title says that you loved your dog, that you loved to spend time with her because she was a good dog, and that you believed in her enough to give her yet another chance when she failed, and in the end your faith was justified.
> 
> A title proves that your dog inspired you to that special relationship, enjoyed by so few, that in a world of disposable creatures, this dog with a title was greatly loved and loved greatly in return.
> 
> And when that dear, short life is over, the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend. Volumes of praise in one small set of initials after the name. An obedience, or herding title is nothing less than true love and respect, given and recorded permanently."


Love this, saving it for future reference 



Canyx said:


> Lovely post! And I do appreciate the sentiment, especially for those who get drawn too much into competition and lose sight of the true goal.
> Yet, and I apologize if this sounds overly cynical as I don't mean for it to be, the little voice in the back of my mind thinks, "what is that saying for people who don't title their dogs?" I KNOW that it's not what the writing implies, nor does it say "everyone needs to title their dogs or else they are inadequate!" But still, phrases like "the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend" does leave a slight feeling that those who don't pursue these things fail to provide their dogs the _finest_ memorials, doesn't quite give the _best you can give_ to a deserving friend.


I get what you're saying. I'm not sure what it is about titles that appeals to me. I guess it's a way to show off my dogs, but competing also provides structure in our training (which I struggle with) and it's fun. But I don't think any less of people who don't do it. And if you do all the training, but never get titles or compete, then good on your for doing all the stuff. It's good for both the owner and the dog, and you don't need a title to announce to everyone that you did it. If you do less with your dog and all it knows is "sit", but you provide everything the dog needs and wants, then good on you for providing everything your dog needs and wants.

I like titles, and I like the idea of my dogs having letters after their names. I can't explain it at the moment, but the discussion has made me think about it, and when I figure it out I'll try to explain it. Now that I've thought about it, I can't not figure it out


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## TorachiKatashi

CptJack said:


> Eh, I'll eventually suck it up and wade through. It's a nice thing to HAVE and I WANT it, but it's not really a requirement for anything I'm likely to do and I don't need it for a 'doggie resume' since we own our home, at least.


As someone who is a big fan of titles myself, to be honest, I think Bear's CGN is my proudest achievement. I know a lot of dogs who are titled Obedience dogs who have never been able to pass the test. Even though it's considered an entry-level test, I think it says a lot about the dogs who have it.

In other news, when did Kylie turn into a Papillon? Haha! It took me a while to find her on the list.


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## CptJack

TorachiKatashi said:


> As someone who is a big fan of titles myself, to be honest, I think Bear's CGN is my proudest achievement. I know a lot of dogs who are titled Obedience dogs who have never been able to pass the test. Even though it's considered an entry-level test, I think it says a lot about the dogs who have it.
> 
> In other news, when did Kylie turn into a Papillon? Haha! It took me a while to find her on the list.


Yeah, I have similar feelings, actually. I want that thing, if only because I know that my dogs would do well at it. Well, maybe. I'm STILL not sure what they mean by shy, so I should really put in some time having strangers pet them. 

She's not really one? But it's what the vet labeled her as, and what her paperwork EVERYWHERE say she is, since it all follows her vet records. Pap-X. (I don't buy it, no, but... it matches her paperwork! (I'm possibly a little OCD that way))


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## TorachiKatashi

CptJack said:


> Yeah, I have similar feelings, actually. I want that thing, if only because I know that my dogs would do well at it. Well, maybe. I'm STILL not sure what they mean by shy, so I should really put in some time having strangers pet them.
> 
> She's not really one? But it's what the vet labeled her as, and what her paperwork EVERYWHERE say she is, since it all follows her vet records. Pap-X. (I don't buy it, no, but... it matches her paperwork! (I'm possibly a little OCD that way))


"Shyness" in regards to the Sitting Politely for Petting exercise means that they lean away from the judge's hand, lowers their head down, or tries to back away. It varies from judge to judge, but in my experience (CGN and CGC are nearly identical except that we have two extra exercises,) judges care a lot more about dogs who jump all over them than they do about dogs who aren't 100% thrilled to be petted. As long as they're not trying to back away (though they CAN stand up) and the judge doesn't have to chase them around with their hand to try to pet them, I wouldn't even worry about it. And you can talk to them and praise them through the entire process. For CGN, we're allowed to kneel down next to our dogs as well, though I'm not 100% sure if that's allowed in CGC.

I got lucky that my judge was a friend of mine who has extensive personal experience with shy and/or reactive dogs, so she knew all the things NOT to do that some judges seem completely oblivious about (like petting them under the chin instead of over the head.)


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## CptJack

TorachiKatashi said:


> "Shyness" in regards to the Sitting Politely for Petting exercise means that they lean away from the judge's hand, lowers their head down, or tries to back away. It varies from judge to judge, but in my experience (CGN and CGC are nearly identical except that we have two extra exercises,) judges care a lot more about dogs who jump all over them than they do about dogs who aren't 100% thrilled to be petted. As long as they're not trying to back away (though they CAN stand up) and the judge doesn't have to chase them around with their hand to try to pet them, I wouldn't even worry about it. And you can talk to them and praise them through the entire process. For CGN, we're allowed to kneel down next to our dogs as well, though I'm not 100% sure if that's allowed in CGC.
> 
> I got lucky that my judge was a friend of mine who has extensive personal experience with shy and/or reactive dogs, so she knew all the things NOT to do that some judges seem completely oblivious about (like petting them under the chin instead of over the head.)



Okay, that's reassuring. Really reassuring. Jack and Kylie don't love being pet, but that not love comes from sitting there and being stoic and unimpressed. They don't react negatively at all or duck or dodge, they're just... mostly nonreactive as heck and, well, sit there. Thank you!


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## Canyx

lil_fuzzy said:


> I get what you're saying. I'm not sure what it is about titles that appeals to me. I guess it's a way to show off my dogs, but competing also provides structure in our training (which I struggle with) and it's fun. But I don't think any less of people who don't do it. And if you do all the training, but never get titles or compete, then good on your for doing all the stuff. It's good for both the owner and the dog, and you don't need a title to announce to everyone that you did it. If you do less with your dog and all it knows is "sit", but you provide everything the dog needs and wants, then good on you for providing everything your dog needs and wants.
> 
> I like titles, and I like the idea of my dogs having letters after their names. I can't explain it at the moment, but the discussion has made me think about it, and when I figure it out I'll try to explain it. Now that I've thought about it, I can't not figure it out


And I'm back, to drag this further off topic! 
When you figure it out do let me know! But I think I know why I think this way... I suspect it's because of where I and most of my friends are in life (past college, in or in between work and graduate school). So many of my friends are continuing their education, some because they know who they want to become but others because it is the 'safe' option. All the power to my friends in graduate school and beyond! And honestly, I would enjoy it if I went too. But for my friends 'after titles,' I will never understand why they think they are less of anybody if they don't go that route. They don't say it; it's not like they have no self esteem. But I see people lose sight of things, the same way dog people might lose sight and become too fixated on the ribbons and not on their relationship with their dog. Titles DO say a lot about what the trainer-dog team has accomplished. Standards are fair and necessary ways to measure things. But they don't define who you are, the same way lack of titles don't define who you are. My problem is when the letters take precedence over the person. And even though it isn't blatantly put forth this way, society has made it this way. I guess my dog beliefs bleed a lot into my human beliefs.
Sorry, too broad of a parallel, eh?


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## elrohwen

Go Kylie! I'm sure this is easy-peasy for her ;-)

I loved that quote that someone posted earlier (sorry, I forgot who!) about why titles are important to some people. Of course, not everyone has to be interested in it, but it really describes the way I feel about the whole thing. I initially wasn't sure if I wanted to compete with Watson, or just train for fun, but now I'm really excited to get letters after his name (and hopefully before it too). I love working with him and I would love to have that permanent record of our hard work and the fun we've had.


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## Shoul

As sad as this comparison may be, titles are kind of like leveling up your dog. They're a tangible way for owners to feel they are making progress. Of course it shouldn't be the end all be all, there are tons of great dogs out there who's owners decided not to spend money to claim titles. It's just within our nature to want to feel recognition for our efforts I think.


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## jaimemuffin

So I know this thread hasn't been posted on for a few days, and I'm a newbie, and I am sans dog at the moment (only 46 days... not like i'm counting... ok i am) but ive already researched all the CGC training, and regretted not getting it with my former dog. Now I'm looking at different sports (Zoie would of been amazing at dock diving) and now you all have given me more things that I want to do! oh man i want to train a dog to paint! think of the goofy gifts i good give my parents from their "grand dog"! Is it weird that i am SUPER PUMPED to train a new dog?


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## petpeeve

Canyx said:


> Lovely post! And I do appreciate the sentiment, especially for those who get drawn too much into competition and lose sight of the true goal.
> Yet, and I apologize if this sounds overly cynical as I don't mean for it to be, the little voice in the back of my mind thinks, "what is that saying for people who don't title their dogs?" I KNOW that it's not what the writing implies, nor does it say "everyone needs to title their dogs or else they are inadequate!" But still, phrases like "the title remains as a memorial of the finest kind, the best you can give to a deserving friend" does leave a slight feeling that those who don't pursue these things fail to provide their dogs the _finest_ memorials, doesn't quite give the _best you can give_ to a deserving friend.


I've posted the following link before, sorry for the redundancy. But, one of the points made within it seems to rise above the rest. And I think it addresses some of your concerns.

_" ... And just as failure will not define our future, *neither will we rely on successes to create our sense of self worth* ..." _

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfXGD4hP1Ro


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## CptJack

(I blanked out the last name. I know people could find me on the list, but I have internet paranoia).


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## elrohwen

Kylie's face is priceless.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> Kylie's face is priceless.


She was SO unsure about this 'stay while I put things on you' thing. Just so very "...mama?''. She's got a REALLY expressive face.


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## jaimemuffin

It's like the opposite of dog shaming! Good job!


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## TorachiKatashi

Jack looks so impressed with himself.

"Yeah, I do tricks. Wanna fight about it?"


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## CptJack

TorachiKatashi said:


> Jack looks so impressed with himself.
> 
> "Yeah, I do tricks. Wanna fight about it?"


Jack says his are NOT tricks, he's too dignified for TRICKS. His are OBEDIENCE COMMANDS (yes, Jack, because there's anything dignified about spinning in a circle). KYLIE does Tricks, thank you very much.


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## CptJack

jaimemuffin said:


> It's like the opposite of dog shaming! Good job!


...I now want to photograph something horrible onto those certs. Just because it would fit her expression *G*


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> She was SO unsure about this 'stay while I put things on you' thing. Just so very "...mama?''. She's got a REALLY expressive face.


I have a bunny who is totally ok with me putting stuff on her and posing for pictures. I will send her.


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## agility collie mom

CptJack said:


> (I blanked out the last name. I know people could find me on the list, but I have internet paranoia).


Very nice!


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## petpeeve

CptJack said:


> ...I just realized I got excited about sticking some kind of titles on my dogs. I'm in trouble, aren't I?


Yeah, you're in trouble alright. It's a downward spiral. Before you know it you're at the lowest depth of human depravity.  

seriously though ... way to go, you 3 !!!


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## trainingjunkie

Congratulations!

I think that any pursuit that causes us to spend more time playing with, enjoying, and respecting our dogs is to be celebrated!

For me, titles aren't anything more than a reminder of all of the fun we had together along the way. I hang all of my titles and each one makes me happy. They're sort of a form of proof of partnership. Of course, there are MANY forms of proof of partnership and titles aren't the only (or even the best) one. The pursuit of titles sort of gives my training goals a clear form. I promise that I would have never trained the articles or a go out if I hadn't wanted the last title in the obedience trio (excluding the elusive repetitive titles of the UDX and the OTCH). 

As long as I have to put up a gate to keep my dogs out of our training area, I know that they are enjoying it too. If we ever neglect the gate, the dogs are laying down there waiting for us. One of the dogs (who is well-titled) can not be called out of the training room. We must retrieve her. That's enough proof to convince me that they are enjoying the journey as well.

I support title addiction. Congratulations CptJack! I hope you're belly hooked. It's a sweet ride!


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## CptJack

Thanks guys!

I think direction and clear goals is a lot of the appeal. I've never been INTO training dogs, beyond them knowing what I needed them to, to do what I wanted to do with them and to be pleasant to live with. Granted, that goes a bit further than most households, but it's still not super far. 

Then I got Kylie and, honestly, training with her isn't optional. It's her favorite game ever, and if she goes too long without enough exercise and mental stimulation she'll take my house apart. I ran out of ideas for things to teach her by the time she was six months old. Finding trick training has really, really been good for her and the state of my mental health and house. Then I saw what it did for my bond with her, and her confidence and started trying to teach Jack to give me his paw - for FUN -once I found a treat he liked enough to work a tiny bit for . When I saw what it's done for his confidence and happiness? 

Yeah. Count me hooked. Jack's no genius dog and he's never going to be a super-awesome trick or obedience dog (well, formal obedience he'd probably do better at than tricks, but I don't think he'd enjoy it) but count me hooked, all around. I do, in fact, understand training for the sake of training which I never quite got before. I'm starting to hit some of the easier things with Bug, and Thud well - he's got some growing up to do, but - Seeing them FIGURE THINGS OUT, and having it click into place and watching their brains turn on? 

Yep. I'll take it. As often as I can get it.

It's fun for me, it's fun for them, and it makes me slightly weepy to watch them get all gleeful and excited about it.


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## voodookitten

CptJack said:


> And it is definitely a money making thing, and generally pretty silly. I'm having fun with it, but I'm not unaware.


Yep and that's where my head is at right now. Ive had that bloody book '51 puppy tricks' for over a year and now I have my switched on Wonder Mutt, I WANT those collar charms. I WANT people to ask about them when she gets them and I WANT to show her tricks off. Its super corny - yep, and to most people it doesnt mean squat diddly - it doesnt matter - I reckon I have a smart enough dog that can get them and she is happy - win win. Money maker or not - it may be a Thing - but its a Thing with Benefits! 

Like one of my kids said 'wont her head drag down with all those collar charms?' Grrrr probably YES, so she wont wear the but Ill damn well frame them and hang them on the wall (and every family member can suck it up and listen to the story when they notice and ask even if when I start their eyes glaze over!) because my dog earned them cos I bothered lol, insurance will cover her neck! No I didnt say that to my child, I looked at him, rolled my eyes and told him to rack off! lol

Oh and Silly = FUN as long as both dog and co agree to it - so Ill happily give revenue to someone who encourages that.


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