# Confused about grains



## Sangaris (Jun 2, 2011)

Some people insist on using grain free food. Others want grain in their diet. What is the benefit of grain free? Are there any benefits to grains? Angie has an allergy to chicken, but is not sensitive to grain that we are aware of. Raw is not an option.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

From my understanding and reading there are two main reasons to go grain free. The first is if your dog has allergies to grains or to prevent allergies to grains developing. The second is that grains are not a natural part of a dogs diet and their digestive systems are not well equipped to digest it, therefor it doesn't add much nutritional value to their diet. By removing grains you get more nutrients per cup/lb of food so you can generally feed less. This often results in smaller stools as well because you are removing the undigested "filler" which for most pet parents is a plus.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

You should be confused about grains as there are many strong opinions about but few facts about them in dog foods.

In dog foods grains are primarily a source of energy from carbohydrates, they are simply a relatively inexpensive way to add calories to a food. _Some_ dogs do much better on grain free foods. Dogs can be allergic to grains, but they are not inherently allergenic nor are they indigestible. Most grain free foods contain some other "unnatural" carbohydrate source such as potatoes, sweet potatoes, or peas, anyway. 

Be prepared for an onslaught of opinions any time, now.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Sassafras is right, a lot of commercial dog food just replaces grain with a different carb source such as potatoes. I'm not convinced one is really better than the other. Neither are inherently bad in small amounts. I think it's more important to find a food that is high in meat content and lower in carbohydrate content. I've had more luck finding grain free products with higher meat content than grain inclusive so that's what has worked for me so far. Hoping to make the switch to raw at some point.


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## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

I'm neither for or against grains in dog food. They could be a problem if your dog is allergic to them, of course, but there are other ingredients in commercial food that could cause allergy reactions like herbal supplements, preservatives, etc . All kibble foods need a binder of some sort and like Sassafras said it's either grains or some kind of potato or legume. Canned food and/or raw can be better if you're willing to feed it because of the moisture content and less need for a carb binder. My dogs don't seem to have a problem with a little grain in their food, such as rice or oats. I don't like corn or wheat in my dogs' food, though. However, I'm currently feeding Natural Balance LID potato and duck because of a health reason in one of my dogs. All of mine are eating the food, however, and doing fine on it. I'm also using the canned food as a topper. You will find many opinions on this subject and others, like high protein versus lower protein, raw versus kibble, etc. Just make sure your food is a good quality food with ingredients that you can understand when you read the bag. Make sure there are no artificial preservatives or colorants, etc. And make sure that your dog is doing well on it....good stools, good energy, good coat, eating it well, etc.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

i choose to go grain-free because grains are notorious for being an allergen [in both canids and humans]. i dont hold it against anyone if they choose to feed grain, as long as a good quality meat comes first.
but, aside from the allergy concern, the way i see it, if a dog is out roaming in the wild.. hed eat meat first, obviously. but then hed eat potatoes or peas over a bundle of oat grass or wheat, or even corn flour. fresh corn on the cob is probably more appetizing, but the fact that some 90%+ of corn is genetically modified.. no, thanks. not for me, and not for my dog.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

I guess I think it depends on the individual dog. Just like some dogs to better on certain proteins than others, I'm sure some do better with or without grains. Both of my dogs are currently on GF foods (TOTW and B2B). I am in the first year of starting to rotate foods and I am planning on having both GF foods and foods with grains, as long as my dogs do well. I do plan to avoid corn, wheat and soy. As I've been researching foods I'm excited to find grain foods that are 4 stars and less expensive (4Health for example) and hope to be able to include those in our rotation.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

The above posts are right on target. Funny thing is when I feed my horses some corn, my dogs are right there eating up the spills. I put the dogs away now when this chore gets done. I do have a dog who is allergic to grains and his digestive upset is not worth it. I am reading about a study done of wolves in the wild. These wolves would catch salmon and only eat the heads off them and leave the body. The author believes the wolves would not eat the body bc this is where the parasite load was at. ? is my answer. I saw a documentry where the wolves would prefer caribou meat and when the caribou left the area would eat salmon. Once the caribou came back the wolves would start eating the caribou. Scientist still do not know why this is. The caribou took a lot more energy to kill than what was needed to catch salmon. All this from hair samples taken from wolves. AMAZING how science works nowadays.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I only feed grain free because your average grain-free food is higher in fat and protein than your average grain-inclusive food. But this is a generalization, and I'm sure I could find a grain-inclusive food that had sufficient fat to keep my dog's itchy skin at bay. Foods with lower fat tend to make her itchy, or that's been my observation. I don't think she has an allergy to grains since she eats grain-inclusive treats with no apparent issue. But no matter, since a grain-free food is working for her I'm sticking with it. 

I recommend you just look for a high quality food you're comfortable with price-wise and which your dogs thrive on and not worry too much about the grains unless an issue pops up.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

krystina alayne said:


> i choose to go grain-free because grains are notorious for being an allergen [in both canids and humans]. i dont hold it against anyone if they choose to feed grain, as long as a good quality meat comes first.
> but, aside from the allergy concern, the way i see it, if a dog is out roaming in the wild.. hed eat meat first, obviously. but then hed eat potatoes or peas over a bundle of oat grass or wheat, or even corn flour. fresh corn on the cob is probably more appetizing, but the fact that some 90%+ of corn is genetically modified.. no, thanks. not for me, and not for my dog.


Do you live in America? If so, then you're probably eating genetically modified food on a regular basis and may not even know about it. Most processed foods have corn in them, and that's GM. Soy, which is also nearly all GM, is also in just about any kind of processed food. Although I don't agree with the insidiousness nature of GM foods and how their introduction into the marketplace was nearly invisible to consumers, most Americans have been eating them for a couple of decades without even realizing it.


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## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

Gally said:


> The second is that grains are not a natural part of a dogs diet and their digestive systems are not well equipped to digest it, therefor it doesn't add much nutritional value to their diet. By removing grains you get more nutrients per cup/lb of food so you can generally feed less. This often results in smaller stools as well because you are removing the undigested "filler" which for most pet parents is a plus.



Ever witness a farm dog chewing on an ear of corn? Happens all the time. While meat may be a dogs first choice, you'd be surprised what they will willingly munch on . My dog just happens to love cantaloupe.

With regards to grains, quality grains do add to a dogs diet. They have essential amino acids that compliment those within meat sources. More importantly though, they provide as was stated, an energy source as well as calories. Grains like rice, barley and oats are a good source of carbohydrates and unless your dog is allergic to them, which is rare, then they provide a useful purpose to a balanced diet. Most people slam grains as being the main cause for food allergies, but in reality it is a meat source that is most common followed by dairy products. 

If you feed a grain free diet and your dog is doing well on it and you can afford it then more power to ya. However, there are plenty of good feeds out there that use quality grains as part of a balanced diet. A meat source as the main ingredient with the right balance of quality grains and or vegetables.

FWIW


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

What essential amino acids do grains have that meat doesn't have? My raw fed dog gets all the amino acids required just fine with no grains fed.

My very old dog needed grain as a source of low phosphorus calories. If she could have tolerated fat then I would have fed less grain and more fat though.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

My Boone was four months old when he started with ear infections; he is six now. I had very few options back then for a food without chicken, corn, wheat, soy, rice, flax and brewers yeast (I was given that list of ingredients to avoid by a friend because I didn't have the cash for allergy testing). Back then, the only foods I could find was Cal Nat herring, Solid Gold holistique blendz and Timberwolf fish. I opted for the Cal Nat, which he ate for three years. Then, a bunch of grain frees popped up. He does great on turkey or fish foods that don't have those ingredients, although he can have flax. I've ad prior dogs who had grain inclusive foods and did fine. My Brittany doesn't need grain free but if she has grains, oh, the poops! Frequent and huge so she eats grain free.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

TomN said:


> Ever witness a farm dog chewing on an ear of corn? Happens all the time. While meat may be a dogs first choice, you'd be surprised what they will willingly munch on . My dog just happens to love cantaloupe.
> 
> With regards to grains, quality grains do add to a dogs diet. They have essential amino acids that compliment those within meat sources. More importantly though, they provide as was stated, an energy source as well as calories. Grains like rice, barley and oats are a good source of carbohydrates and unless your dog is allergic to them, which is rare, then they provide a useful purpose to a balanced diet. Most people slam grains as being the main cause for food allergies, but in reality it is a meat source that is most common followed by dairy products.
> 
> ...


My city dog will eat garbage off the sidewalk if I let him that doesn't make it part of a canines natural diet.

Dogs might get some energy from grains (and the other carbohydrate products like potatoes and peas that are put into most dog food) but that doesn't mean they need to eat them either. Will they be worse off for eating good quality grains (or potatoes )? Maybe yes, maybe no. It really depends on the dog and their personal sensitivities. The majority of dogs will do just fine with a limited amount of any of them in their diet.



Kathyy said:


> What essential amino acids do grains have that meat doesn't have? My raw fed dog gets all the amino acids required just fine with no grains fed.


I'm wondering this as well.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Why is so much stress put on wolves? Dogs are NOT and will never be wolves. They can eat grains. Grains are a beneficial addition to a dogs diet. It does not matter what would be eaten in the "wild". Animals in the wild eat what they can. They aren't out there attacking prey animals left and right. A dog's diet today should be immensely different than that of a wild animal. A domesticated dog leads a much different life than that of a wild animal so why should it be fed as one? 

Also, dogs are very rarely allergic to corn or any other grains. Protein supplied by grains isn't different than protein supplied by meat. They're composed of the same amino acids and once broken down, the body cannot tell the difference between an amino acid from meat vs. an amino acid from plant matter. 

You may believe grain free is better, but don't bash grains. It all comes down to preference and the individual dog.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Gally said:


> My city dog will eat garbage off the sidewalk if I let him that doesn't make it part of a canines natural diet.


Well if you believe the co-evolution theory, dogs evolved eating our garbage and so it actually IS the ultimate dog's natural diet. Not that there's anything natural about dogs anymore, anyway, we've made them into maybe one of the most unnatural animals on the planet.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Only one person mentioned wolves and it wasn't in relation to eating grain or not. I don't think anyone is bashing grain either, just providing their opinions and experiences.

Dogs are opportunistic eaters and can and do eat a variety of things but they are still carnivores. Carnivores need meat to survive. They can eat other things like grain and potatoes but they don't "need" to eat it when meat is available. But as I've said that doesn't make grain or other carbohydrates "bad" for dogs.

You're right dogs aren't "natural" or "wild" anymore but I don't think their digestive systems have changed as much as people would like to believe.

http://www.campaignfortruth.com/Eclub/240205/Petfood.htm
http://orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pdf
http://www.thewholedog.org/id34.html

To sassafras: By garbage I mean plastic, tin foil, paper, gum etc.


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## lovetinydogs (Mar 15, 2012)

I would like to feed my dogs the best all around diet. I don't want to give them any soy, wheat, or corn though as I have had dogs in the past with allergies. I have small dogs, 2 yorkies and a small shih tzu. I know this is a very controversial subject, but can anyone recommend a dog food that is good for small dogs. Raw is not an option for me. Thanks for the help!


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## itsjustmebre (Mar 29, 2011)

52Paws said:


> How much do you want to bet that grains are notorious for being allergens? I name the amount. You wanna bet?


I don't know about in dogs, but I know SEVERAL people with grain allergies. I myself am allergic to dairy and soy, so it's not all that far off hah. I think the reason is because pretty much all food is genetically modified now, causing food allergies. I honestly don't feed my dogs grain free. And I eat grains myself. About 90% of that though is me not wanting to cut down my own food that much, I'd very likely have to have formula if I went off of all grains. For dogs it's a lot easier(at least seemingly) to feed grain free. But as long as my dogs don't have any issues on it, I don't feel a need to switch their diet, especially since my one dog can have a sensitive stomach.

I think for the most part, this thread is going to be all opinions of personal experience. Has any research been done to show that grains are bad for dogs?

~IJMB


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## itsjustmebre (Mar 29, 2011)

Was that on dogs or humans? Any references to the study? I'm just really curious now 

~IJMB


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

itsjustmebre said:


> Was that on dogs or humans? Any references to the study? I'm just really curious now
> 
> ~IJMB


 The prevalence of grain allergies among humans is completely irrelevant. Dogs are not humans. They are dogs.


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## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

Gally said:


> Dogs are opportunistic eaters and can and do eat a variety of things but they are still carnivores. Carnivores need meat to survive. They can eat other things like grain and potatoes but they don't "need" to eat it when meat is available. But as I've said that doesn't make grain or other carbohydrates "bad" for dogs.


We'll you are correct that they will eat a variety of things. However, they are more of what I would call "opportunistic carnivores" in that they can survive on a variety of food, even vegetable diets if need be. Meat will always be the best and preferred, but they can do without to survive. Cats on the other hand cannot survive without meat and are the true carnivores of the animal world.


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## Goldens&Labs4Me (Jan 18, 2012)

I have recently switched my dogs to grain free. My reasoning for trying it is my golden does have some allergy issues--#1. But also, he is a senior with some joint stiffness, so I wanted a higher protein food, which was easily found in some grain free formulas. After a few months on GF, he is moving better and their coats are soft and so shiny (but weren't bad on Grain inclusive by any means). They are also not eating nearly the amount of gf as they were grain inclusive and my hope is this will also help shed a few pounds off of my golden as he has slowed down now that he is getting older. 

But, I wasn't unhappy with grain inclusive either. But for what he needs at this time, it seems to be going well, so far--and the girls refused their food and hovered over him when I was just trying him on it, so they now get the same to make them all happy!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I suspect a lot of the current dislike of grains comes from this site. The writer is a vet but this is all based on his experience with no scientific study references I could find on his website. He is a sufferer of celiac disease and when he looked into it further noticed a lot of other health issues went away when certain types of foods were avoided. Worth a read and if your dog [or you] have issues then try it out. Oftentimes if there is something like this sort of intolerance going on you can note improvement very quickly.
http://dogtorj.com/what-is-food-intolerance/gluten-intolerance/

If your dog has issues then go for it. Keep on trying other foods. If you see a positive change then you are on the right track. 

If your dog has clean supple skin and normally shedding shiny healthy fur, non stinky clean ears, clean teeth with no bad breath, good digestion with good quality small stools then your dog does fine with grains. All those issues get glossed over as normal doggy health but a better diet can help with all of those issues.

Max gets matter in his eyes when he eats grains. Minor thing but why give it to him. I see the eyes but what else is going on? He does need massive amounts of fat to keep his fur in good condition and massive amounts of protein for good muscle tone. That has nothing to do with grain other than he happens to be better off getting calories from fat and protein than lower fat/protein grain.

I just thought Sassy was a stinky hound dog with a never ending shedding fur coat. Nope. It was something in the all kibbles over the 13 years I gave it to her. On homecooked food most of that stink was gone. She ate grain, lots of it. It didn't cause her to have nasty poop or ear ****. I strongly suspect more fat would have improved her flaky skin but she could no longer tolerate it. I learned about better grooming and hydration and the shedding improved a great deal.

I will cite studies if I can find them but personal experience is valid. That 2002 study includes surveys. Surveys are questionnaires passed out then presented after a statistical analysis.


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## lovetinydogs (Mar 15, 2012)

What brand of food are you feeding your dogs golden&labs4me? Just curious because I want to change the food I am feeding my dogs and I also feed GF.


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## Goldens&Labs4Me (Jan 18, 2012)

lovetinydogs said:


> What brand of food are you feeding your dogs golden&labs4me? Just curious because I want to change the food I am feeding my dogs and I also feed GF.


I started them out on Fromm Surf and Turf. I am a huge fan of Fromm--but honestly, they didn't eat it with much enthusiasm. (tried the Game Bird as well--same reaction). Which surprises me, because they love the 4 Star Regular line, especially the Duck/Sweet Potato. But for me--at $65 for 30 lbs--they need to LOVE that stuff, IMO.  

So the next bag, I tried the Natural Balance Alpha Lamb/Chicken/Rabbit formula. I typically haven't given this brand a second look (not sure why, just haven't) but found a GREAT deal, that made it worth trying (and bought 2/25 lb bags. I'm on my 2nd bag of it--and they have done well on it. They like it, but they do not eat as much as they would of a grain inclusive food. Their coats are super soft and shiny and they look and feel great. 

When this bag is done--I'm going to give Taste of the Wild a try. And we'll see how they do on that one. 

I hope this helps a little.


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## Jordan S (Nov 21, 2009)

Gally said:


> F The second is that grains are not a natural part of a dogs diet and their digestive systems are not well equipped to digest it


True but niether are potatoes and other starches commonly used in many of the grain-free kibbles. I think the problem with a lot of grain inclusive chows is the fact that grain makes up such a large part of the food. If they were to make a food with the same protein levels and low carb levels as the grain-free, I doubt people would have a problem with it(unless they have a grain-intolerant dog of course)


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## lovetinydogs (Mar 15, 2012)

Thank you golden&labs4me! After spending the last two hours researching dog foods, I have also decided to try Taste of the Wild. Now I just need to decide which one to get. I might try my older dogs on the Pacific Stream because I think it is lower in fat and they could both lose some weight. Not sure what to do with my puppy??? Probably the puppy one with bison.


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

Sangaris said:


> Some people insist on using grain free food. Others want grain in their diet. What is the benefit of grain free? Are there any benefits to grains? Angie has an allergy to chicken, but is not sensitive to grain that we are aware of. Raw is not an option.


Dogs are carnivores. Their digestive system cannot handle plant matter, thus the allergies. Grain-based foods will damage their pancreas. If you cannot be persuaded to try the raw diet, even for a week (which I assure you is enough to take care of whatever allergies your dog currently have), then at least try raw whole fish maybe? Sardines are cheap. Not the canned ones. Just feed the fish intact (tails, heads, etc.). Observe how your dog behaves afterwards.


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## Goldens&Labs4Me (Jan 18, 2012)

lovetinydogs said:


> Thank you golden&labs4me! After spending the last two hours researching dog foods, I have also decided to try Taste of the Wild. Now I just need to decide which one to get. I might try my older dogs on the Pacific Stream because I think it is lower in fat and they could both lose some weight. Not sure what to do with my puppy??? Probably the puppy one with bison.


You are most welcome! You know, TOTW is for ALS, so there is no reason you can't 
feed your dogs and pup the same one.  But if it makes you feel better, you can of course feed the pup the puppy formula as well. 

The bison one is what I want to try first. My dogs aren't big fish kibble fans--so if you haven't tried your dogs fish based kibble before, might be a good idea to try a small bag first. A LOT of dogs LOVE it though, so don't let my crazy dogs steer you away from trying it!  LOL. Let us know how it goes!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

dustinshaw98 said:


> Dogs are carnivores. Their digestive system cannot handle plant matter, thus the allergies. Grain-based foods will damage their pancreas.


What are you basing this on, and what's the mechanism of how it happens?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

52Paws said:


> Sassafras, don't waste your time. People with that point of view totally ignore the facts.


I don't like vague terms like "damages the pancreas". I can only hope that someday, someone will actually explain to me exactly how that happens or why corn is indigestible or how the body can tell the difference between calories and amino acids from meat vs corn instead of parroting what they've read off a website. Typically the response to this particular pancreas thing is something along the lines of "everyone knows this", but we'll see.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think there is such a thing as a blanket food recommendation for dogs. Some dogs do better on this, some dogs do better on that. Whether it's grain, grain-free, raw, chicken, beef, lamb, corn, soy, commercial, home made... there are dogs doing just fine on it and dogs doing crappy on it (and yes there are dogs who do crappy on raw). It may surprise people to learn that I feed partially raw. BUT, there is no perfect diet and I just can't stand to see vague proclamations like that go by without comment. Call me a masochist.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Those links are old ones. Perhaps Orijen sources all the chicken locally now. I don't think they said all the ingredients were local, just the fresh stuff.

The issue with Australia was really stupid. Somebody should have irradiated a couple bags and done a feeding test before sending the food over. Reinforces my determination to continue to feed my pets fresh food. Nutrition is a fairly young science and just because they can identify some essential nutrients and include in processed food doesn't mean they know enough to make up a food from processed ingredients that can do it all.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

dustinshaw98 said:


> Dogs are carnivores. Their digestive system cannot handle plant matter, thus the allergies. Grain-based foods will damage their pancreas. If you cannot be persuaded to try the raw diet, even for a week (which I assure you is enough to take care of whatever allergies your dog currently have), then at least try raw whole fish maybe? Sardines are cheap. Not the canned ones. Just feed the fish intact (tails, heads, etc.). Observe how your dog behaves afterwards.


This is NOT true. Where in the world did you hear this? A dog's digestive tract is fully equipped to handle plant matter! Grain will not damage any part of a dog. Dog's organs produce amylase, an enzyme that breaks down grains. Funny huh? If dogs couldn't digest grains I really doubt that they would have the same enzyme present that all other grain eating animals have. Please do not spread incorrect information. If you need a link I can supply them so that you can get correctly acquainted with a dog's digestive tract.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Hallie said:


> This is NOT true. Where in the world did you hear this? A dog's digestive tract is fully equipped to handle plant matter! Grain will not damage any part of a dog. Dog's organs produce amylase, an enzyme that breaks down grains. Funny huh? If dogs couldn't digest grains I really doubt that they would have the same enzyme present that all other grain eating animals have. Please do not spread incorrect information. If you need a link I can supply them so that you can get correctly acquainted with a dog's digestive tract.



http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

http://rawfed.com/myths/carbs.html


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

I feed one dog raw, as he cannot have any carbs except for limited fruits/veggies, or he gets nasty ear infections and his skin flares up. 


I feed one dog kibble, sometimes with grains (Fromm) and she does well. But ideally both my dogs would be raw fed if money and space permitted.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

meggels said:


> http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html
> 
> http://rawfed.com/myths/carbs.html


Any controlled documented studies? 
First off, That does NOT place a burden on the pancreas. This is a job of the pancreas. To say that feeding grains damages the pancreas is the same as saying feeding high protein damages the kidneys. Amylase is produced to assist in the break down of any starches. Therefore, almost of your grain free foods are 'damaging' your dog's pancreas. A lot of grain free foods use potatoes, those high starch potatoes are being broken down by the amylase produced by the pancreas.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Max eats prey model raw. The organs contain carbohydrates. That is why dogs have amylase, not to digest grains, veggies and fruits.
Carbs in lamb and game meats. 
http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-017005000000000000000-w.html


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## TomN (Jul 1, 2007)

dustinshaw98 said:


> Dogs are carnivores. Their digestive system cannot handle plant matter, thus the allergies. Grain-based foods will damage their pancreas.


 Oh Please.... spare me the Rhetoric. :blah:



dustinshaw98 said:


> If you cannot be persuaded to try the raw diet, even for a week (which I assure you is enough to take care of whatever allergies your dog currently have)


And what if your dogs allergies are not food related? Grain free diet is not the end all answer to all problems. Food allergies are rare in comparison to environmental allergies anyhow.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

People base dogs can not handle digesting corn on the whole corn theory. Even people can not digest corn on the cob all the time. Just look at your fecals if your not a believer. Corn in kibble is broken down and can be digested. If not true dogs who were fed Purina dog chow would be dying all over the place. This food was and still is a top seller. Purina would have to pull it from the shelf a long time ago if dogs did not do well on it. Ol' Roy tops the list for best seller. Pedigree is up there too. 
These are all corn based dog food and you do not see a big recall on them for killing dogs because of the corn ration in them.

I often wondered if a corn field was in a wolf's territory would it sit and eat a cob or two. My farm dogs just love to munch away on it. Would wolf's start stealing vegetables from a garden if given a chance? 

It is often stated dogs have no amylase and therefore cannot eat or gain benefit from vegetables. Dogs have amylase in their system. They do not have as much amylase in their spit to start breaking down vegetables, that is why it is recommended to cook to break down the outer covering of the vegetable. Just like what caribou have in their guts and the wild wolf eats it. Wolves have also been observed eating the fecal matter of herbivores. Digested plant matter. 
Kind of interesting study. Dr. Debbie Knapp involving her studies on bladder cancer in dogs found those dogs who ate vegetables at least 3 times a week had a 70% reduction in bladder cancer. http://www.ehow.com/about_5382588_fruits-vegetables-dogs.html So mom was right, you need to eat veggies to stay healthy. 

It would be great if all dogs could be fed a 4 or 5 star dog food, but the truth is many owners just can not afford the price up front for it. All dog food feeding styles has pro and cons that come with it. This should be up to the owner of what they feel to feed their dog. If you are not happy with their choice, than at least offer to buy the food for them.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Kathyy said:


> Max eats prey model raw. The organs contain carbohydrates. That is why dogs have amylase, not to digest grains, veggies and fruits.
> Carbs in lamb and game meats.
> http://nutritiondata.self.com/foods-017005000000000000000-w.html


Amylase breaks down starches. There are no starches in meat.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Did you even look at the link? Liver stores glycogen. Glycogen is metabolized by amylase.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

i also have wondered about grain inclusive foods ... I will ask the guy i buy my DF from the next time. which grain inclusive brands are good & can you mix them with freeze dried raw or grain free kibble?


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Kathyy said:


> Did you even look at the link? Liver stores glycogen. Glycogen is metabolized by amylase.


Yes, I did look at the link. Glycogen is simply stored glucose. It is not completely metabolized by amylase. Amylase is simply one of the components involved the breakdown. Amylase's main function in a dog's body is the break down of starches present in plant matter. This, amylase does more efficiently. It is limited when involved in the breakdown of glycogen.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

oh, i am highly aware of all the corn and soy in everyday products. i buy organic or gmo-free, or grow/make my own. not everybody in america is an idiot. ;P



GottaLuvMutts said:


> Do you live in America? If so, then you're probably eating genetically modified food on a regular basis and may not even know about it. Most processed foods have corn in them, and that's GM. Soy, which is also nearly all GM, is also in just about any kind of processed food. Although I don't agree with the insidiousness nature of GM foods and how their introduction into the marketplace was nearly invisible to consumers, most Americans have been eating them for a couple of decades without even realizing it.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

i read in a book written by a man documenting wolves that up in alaska and canada, wolves DO like to pilfer potatoes and even watermelons from farms. if there was a corn field, you betcha a wolf would nibble on some cobs. my dog particularly likes blueberries. he eats them right off the bush. i wish i had never showed him how to do that..



luv mi pets said:


> I often wondered if a corn field was in a wolf's territory would it sit and eat a cob or two. My farm dogs just love to munch away on it. Would wolf's start stealing vegetables from a garden if given a chance?


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I prefer little to no grains in my dogs' diets. Same goes for my cats, ferrets, reptiles and myself. My pug/boston gets really itchy and flakey when fed grains, the GSD gets a greasy coat and our poodle/bichon itches his toes a lot when fed grains.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

krystina alayne said:


> oh, i am highly aware of all the corn and soy in everyday products. i buy organic or gmo-free, or grow/make my own. not everybody in america is an idiot. ;P


Maybe not everyone in America can afford to be so picky. Your superiority complex must feel great.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> Maybe not everyone in America can afford to be so picky. Your superiority complex must feel great.


way to ruin a joke.

if those poor people care about gmo so much, they can stop buying doritos and soda and spend that money on organic. organic really isnt that much more expensive if youre not buying the fancy frivolous stuff like prepared meals and high-end chocolate


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

krystina alayne said:


> way to ruin a joke.
> 
> if those poor people care about gmo so much, they can stop buying doritos and soda and spend that money on organic. organic really isnt that much more expensive if youre not buying the fancy frivolous stuff like prepared meals and high-end chocolate


lol, those are some of the most judgmental statements I have ever heard. Obviously you've never had to worry about money in your life because you apparently have no idea that poor people can't afford soda and doritos. I know my parents couldn't when I was growing up. We ate cereal and milk and blocks of cheese from charity organizations and ate chili or spaghetti or mac n cheese almost every night because those things are incredibly inexpensive (oh yeah, and totally genetically modified). Anyway, don't let me bother you with my sob story. We totally should have just picked ourselves up by the bootstraps and gone organic non-gmo and it would have solved all of our problems. Enjoy your non-gmo foods.

PS-- I try to avoid grains entirely but I don't go shoving it down everyone else's throat and I don't call people idiots because they don't share my values and/or don't have the luxury of being able to express those values in their lifestyle 100% of the time.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

i live in a 5th wheel, renting from my parents, and i stay at "home" with my 8 month old daughter while my husband works full time. im LIVING poor. yet somehow i manage to afford organic produce and staples.

and i dont see where i shoved no-grain down anyones throat. in fact, i recall saying "i dont judge others who use it"..

and lastly, the idiot thing IS a joke. most everyone thinks americans are idiots. most americans are simply ignorant, but the media doesnt really tell the difference between ignorance and stupidity. in fact, most people dont even KNOW there IS a difference between "ignorant" and "stupid".. both sound offensive anyways. 
so if it makes you feel better, ill reword my post to say "not everybody in america is ignorant to the fact that gmo foods are in practically all conventional foods"......yea, no. that doesnt sound creative or humorous at all.

jesus.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

and those statements arent judgmental. stereotyping, sure. but its a fact that every. single. poor family i know buys CRAP. doritos, name-brand sodas, off-brand sodas, tv dinners, kellogs cereal [the expensive kind].. and turn around and tell me "oh wow i wish i could buy organic, i just cant afford it"..
^ this is my in-laws. i love them but goodness are they severely confused. i guess they prefer convenience [frozen, prepared meals] over organic.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I understand that genetically modified foods are in everything and frankly it doesn't greatly concern me. Not anymore than the over-abundance of grains in our diets to begin with. It'd be nice if they labelled it, but I think the whole anti-gmo business is kind of psuedo-scientific paranoia at best. So no, it doesn't make someone an idiot (or even, "ignorant to the fact that gmo foods are in practically all conventional foods") and it certainly doesn't make them ignorant for choosing not to avoid gmo like you do. Someone can be fully informed and just make a different decision from you. Imagine that.



krystina alayne said:


> and those statements arent judgmental. stereotyping, sure. *but its a fact that every. single. poor family i know buys CRAP.* doritos, name-brand sodas, off-brand sodas, tv dinners, kellogs cereal [the expensive kind].. and turn around and tell me "oh wow i wish i could buy organic, i just cant afford it"..
> ^ this is my in-laws.* i love them but goodness are they severely confused. i guess they prefer convenience [frozen, prepared meals] over organic.*


You don't think that sounds judgmental, huh? LOL


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

im sorry if i offended you. you are not the first person online to tell me i sound judgmental or that i have some sort of "superiority complex" or that im on a "high horse".. none of that is true. its just my sense of humor that apparently not everybody gets. i dont have this problem with my tangible friends, but that may be because theyve known me for a while so they get my humor.
maybe i should just pretend im a robot when im typing. so i dont offend anybody. ill just state facts. no jokes, no opinions.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> I understand that genetically modified foods are in everything and frankly it doesn't greatly concern me. Not anymore than the over-abundance of grains in our diets to begin with. It'd be nice if they labelled it, but I think the whole anti-gmo business is kind of psuedo-scientific paranoia at best. So no, it doesn't make someone an idiot (or even, "ignorant to the fact that gmo foods are in practically all conventional foods") and it certainly doesn't make them ignorant for choosing not to avoid gmo like you do. *Someone can be fully informed and just make a different decision from you. *Imagine that.
> 
> 
> You don't think that sounds judgmental, huh? LOL



i get this plenty enough from the vaccination/no vaccination debate. i dont think ANYONE making an informed choice is stupid. and by definition, they cant be called ignorant. even if i disagree with it. which i think is pretty clear when i said i dont judge when other people use grain. again, the "stupid americans" is a joke.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

krystina alayne said:


> maybe i should just pretend im a robot when im typing. so i dont offend anybody. ill just state facts. no jokes, no opinions.


Ha, if that's what you feel you need to do.  I think your "sense of humor" is just not my cup 'o tea.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

and i dont think its pseudo-science paranoia. its just plain WRONG. i get cross-breeding and selective-breeding. nature allows that sort of thing. but frog dna in crook-neck squash? i dont get how anyone can think theres nothing wrong with that. its unnatural and there is bound to be repercussions. in fact, i recall a study where the gmo food changes the dna inside humans who ingest it. ill have to dig up the article. it may have been on mercola.com [sure, some call him a "quack" but at least he cites his sources, which are usually pretty credible].


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> Ha, if that's what you feel you need to do.  I think your "sense of humor" is just not my cup 'o tea.


i see the conflict occurs mostly due to an age-gap. to put it into perspective.. im 20.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

krystina alayne said:


> and i dont think its pseudo-science paranoia. its just plain WRONG. i get cross-breeding and selective-breeding. nature allows that sort of thing. but frog dna in crook-neck squash? i dont get how anyone can think theres nothing wrong with that. its unnatural and there is bound to be repercussions. in fact, i recall a study where the gmo food changes the dna inside humans who ingest it. ill have to dig up the article. it may have been on mercola.com [sure, some call him a "quack" but at least he cites his sources, which are usually pretty credible].


I respectfully disagree with all of that. Just because it "seems" wrong and "against nature" doesn't mean it is. We don't have to turn this into a gmo debate though, so I accept your opinion and am moving on.



krystina alayne said:


> i see the conflict occurs mostly due to an age-gap. to put it into perspective.. im 20.


LOL, I am 22 years old.


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

kafkabeetle said:


> LOL, I am 22 years old.


weird. are you american? thats literally a first that someone my age is offended at stupid things i say! i get a TON of grief at this mothers forum site where the average age is 40!


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

krystina alayne said:


> weird. are you american? thats literally a first that someone my age is offended at stupid things i say! i get a TON of grief at this mothers forum site where the average age is 40!


Lol yeah, I'm American. Probably just uptight beyond my years. xD


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## krystina alayne (Jun 23, 2011)

i wont agree nor disagree with that. 

just so you know, i grew up poor as well. my parents had to receive help from the state to feed my brother and i. i was one of those dirty-footed girls with unmatching shirts and torn jeans running around the horse pasture. i just dont remember any of the bad [i LOVED being a dirty-footed kid! freedom!!]..

but maybe i can afford organic because of the conservative things i do that i grew up with..
also, probably because i breastfeed [formula is EXPENSIVE] and cloth diaper my daughter.


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

Gally said:


> From my understanding and reading there are two main reasons to go grain free. The first is if your dog has allergies to grains or to prevent allergies to grains developing. The second is that grains are not a natural part of a dogs diet and their digestive systems are not well equipped to digest it, therefor it doesn't add much nutritional value to their diet. By removing grains you get more nutrients per cup/lb of food so you can generally feed less. This often results in smaller stools as well because you are removing the undigested "filler" which for most pet parents is a plus.



You're right. There are actually studies about this.


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## blues327 (May 2, 2011)

> It'd be nice if they labelled it, but I think the whole anti-gmo business is kind of psuedo-scientific paranoia at best.


I'm not so sure that it is, I was talking to my regular (non holistic) vet recently and he told me he just got back from a conference where one of the topics he and a bunch of other vets were discussing was the immunity issues being seen with the use of GMO grains and pesticide residue in pet foods. He said they discussed how they use to see a couple strange immunity cases a year in their office and now the vets are seeing a rapid growth in those cases and it's being contributed to the growth in GMO foods and pesticide residue being used in pet foods. 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/12/monsantos-gmo-corn-linked_n_420365.html

France and Germany as well as other European countries have banned the use of Monsantos GM Corn.
http://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/france-bans-strain-monsanto-gm-082303750.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7998181.stm

Scientific paper finds links between GMO foods and organ health issues in 19 studies.
http://www.enveurope.com/content/23/1/10

GMO foods and Pets Info
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/massive-health-problems-linked-to-gmo-foods/

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/articles/gm-or-no-gm.html


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I breed gerbils and we pulled GMO corn out of theire diets because of the infertility and deformitys it was causing, as soon as we switched to organic corn for non breeders and no corn at all for breeders, the problems stopped. we did not make the link until we were talking to a breeder/genetisist in europe about the issues we were having, he linked us to studies on GMO corn, and told us that virtually all corn in NA is GMO, so we pulled the corn(we mix there food ourselves and control everything, so that was the ONLY change) and what do you know? the problems stopped. we carfeully aviod it in all our animals diets now...we have thought about it for ourselves too, but we are pickier about the animals food lol

as for grains in general? I PREFERE grain free, but thats just my personal preference, I am hardly a stickler about it, my dogs eat raw at home, and its not at all uncommon for me to throw bread into their meals, or rice, or steel cut oats. I only go out of my way to aviod grains for Electra, but thats because she is allergic is nearly everything, and most good foods with grain contain oats, which is her absolute worst allergen lol


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Miss Bugs said:


> I breed gerbils and we pulled GMO corn out of theire diets because of the infertility and deformitys it was causing, as soon as we switched to organic corn for non breeders and no corn at all for breeders, the problems stopped. we did not make the link until we were talking to a breeder/genetisist in europe about the issues we were having, he linked us to studies on GMO corn, and told us that virtually all corn in NA is GMO, so we pulled the corn(we mix there food ourselves and control everything, so that was the ONLY change) and what do you know? the problems stopped. we carfeully aviod it in all our animals diets now...we have thought about it for ourselves too, but we are pickier about the animals food lol


If you didn't even try adding non-GMO corn into their feed and instead just switched off the corn entirely, I don't know that you can definitively blame the genetic modification of the corn on your gerbil's problems. It could be that gerbils don't do well on corn at all, or certain varieties. Of course, I'm not saying that genetic modification definitely had nothing to do with the problems you had, but I think it's hasty to automatically blame it on GMO corn given the information you've provided. I mean, is corn a normal part of a wild gerbil's diet?


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

lol sorry I should clarify, my mom(the other half our our gerbil breeding operation) is obsessive about taking notes and doing everything scientificly lol, I know how we keep the stuff so it all made perfect sence in my head  this was several years ago, "now" the current mixes are non GMO corn in the non breeder food..non breeder meaning not CURRENTLY in a breeding pair. and no corn in the breeder food..breeding only meaning currently in a breeding pair..we have tried a number of differnt things, different ingredients, adjusting the nutrients levels in the 2 mixes and studying the results..my mom has massive spreadsheets she studies noting everything and adjusting this a that, we have no problems at all on the non GMO corn, not with anyone, breeders or non breeders, we just dont use it in our current breeder mix, as the "recipe" we have ATM is working quite well..we have added and removed things like legumes and such as well, not just corn GMO and non GMO.


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## hisakix (May 13, 2010)

sassafras said:


> I don't like vague terms like "damages the pancreas". I can only hope that someday, someone will actually explain to me exactly how that happens or why corn is indigestible or how the body can tell the difference between calories and amino acids from meat vs corn instead of parroting what they've read off a website. Typically the response to this particular pancreas thing is something along the lines of "everyone knows this", but we'll see.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I don't think there is such a thing as a blanket food recommendation for dogs. Some dogs do better on this, some dogs do better on that. Whether it's grain, grain-free, raw, chicken, beef, lamb, corn, soy, commercial, home made... there are dogs doing just fine on it and dogs doing crappy on it (and yes there are dogs who do crappy on raw). It may surprise people to learn that I feed partially raw. BUT, there is no perfect diet and I just can't stand to see vague proclamations like that go by without comment. Call me a masochist.


Hi Sassafras, I only recently came back to this forum to see what different individuals are experiencing with various dry food products and stumbled upon this particular thread and your post! I rarely post on internet forums but this particular topic is actually of great personal interest and I would love to share my knowledge of this subject. Just to give some background information, I am not a RD or a Veterinarian but I have formal education and laboratory experience with both human and animal (zoology) physiology and biochemistry from my undergraduate years as well as my dental (human ) school education. Now that the formalities are out of the way, I will address your concerns point by point:

*Basic Points:* Generally speaking...
Adipose (fat) _breaks down into_ Fatty Acids
Carbohydrates _break down into_ Sugars (mono, di, polysaccharides)
Protein _breaks down into_ Amino Acids (non and essential)

One thing to keep in mind is that human and dog biochemistry allows the conversion of one form to the other (ex. Proteins can be broken down and converted to glycogen, similar to how carbohydrates can be converted to be stored in adipose tissues).


1.) _*"...why corn is indigestible..."*_

The individual corn kernels are held in the shape we see due to the composition of plant cells and how they are arranged. Each individual corn cell is encased by a structure known as the cell wall, which is composed primarily of cellulose, hemicellulose, and pectin, which are all carbohydrates. You may have heard individuals say humans and dogs lack the enzymes needed to break down corn. What you should be aware is that enzymes are just a complex arrangement of proteins that are created for a very specific function (ex: amylase). Without getting into too much detail, it is sufficient to say that humans and dogs both lack the required enzymes to effectively break down this cell wall. However, preparation of the corn plays a significant role in the integrity of the the cell wall when it reaches our gastrointestinal system. For example, well prepared corn is significantly more digestible than raw corn. Also keep in mind that the indigestible, or insoluble cell walls are what is referred to as insoluble fiber, or more commonly just as "fiber". I am unsure of the significance of insoluble fiber within the context of a dog's GI system, but it is of very high importance in humans.


2.) *"...How the body can tell the difference between calories and amino acids from meat vs corn..."*

What you refer to as "calories" is actually just an unit of measurement for energy. Within the scientific community, it was supplanted long ago by the SI unit "joules" and is now strictly used to measure food energy. The process of converting what we eat (carbs, proteins, fat, etc) into actual useable energy is a set of very complex processes which are beyond of the scope of this post. I think it will be sufficient to simply say that the end product of those processes is adenosine triphosphate, or ATP. ATP is the primary molecule used to transfer energy between cells for critical life sustaining processes (broadly known as metabolism). The actual ATP molecule itself does not distinguish between plant based and animal based sources, however, the rate at which carbs/fats/protein are converted to ATP matters. For example, monosaccharides like glucose are used first and more easily converted compared to the potential energy stored in adipose tissues. Keeping all this in mind, the important question is not actually plant vs meat but rather what "type" of food is this? Carbs? Fats? Protein?

Proteins are broken down into amino acids, and some are able to be natively synthesized by humans and dogs, while others must be from a dietary source. Dietary amino acids are known as essential amino acids. You need a complete set and proper proportion of all amino acids to be "healthy". For dogs, this list includes: threonine, arginine, methionine, phenylalanine, isoleucine, histidine, leucine, tryptophan, valine and lysine. For adult humans: lysine, phenylalanine, valine, tryptophan, isoleucine, histidine, methionine, leucine, and threonine. 

The main difference between plant and animal protein is the type and proportion of amino acids. Generally, meat sources contain a complete and adequate proportion of essential amino acids, whereas plants generally lack specific essential amino acid(s) or they have a complete set but inadequate proportion of each. Your body doesn't really react as you might imagine: "HEY THIS IS A PLANT PROTEIN!", it is more along the lines that your body will feel the effects of inadequate levels of essential amino acids, and thus produce visible signs and symptoms. This is why vegetarians are always instructed by MDs and RDs to have a _balanced_ protein intake of specific types of produce. Another factor to consider is the digestibility of the protein source. Again, generally speaking, meat is significantly more digestible than plants, and a commonly used example is to ask yourself if you would rather eat a product with 100% protein but 10% digestibility or 50% protein but 100% digestibility? You might be asking, so what? So, the implications of this feature is that you have to _increase_ your plant intake in order to match the _quality and quantity_ of essential amino acids found naturally in meat (this means increased caloric intake). Again, your body doesn't detect: "THIS IS PLANT PROTEIN!", it will simply attempt to adjust to your lifestyle and the effects of your choices will be measurable and visible.


Phew! That was a long post, I hope I have imparted some basic knowledge and insight to further your understanding of this subject area


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## dustinshaw98 (Feb 22, 2012)

Sangaris said:


> Some people insist on using grain free food. Others want grain in their diet. What is the benefit of grain free? Are there any benefits to grains? Angie has an allergy to chicken, but is not sensitive to grain that we are aware of. Raw is not an option.


Grain-based foods almost always lead to allergies. Plus, the digestive tract of dogs cannot handle grain-based matter; the pancreas does most of the work, which shouldn't be the case.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

My friend adopted a rescue dog that was seriously overweight and he uses a scoop of rice added to the dry dog food as a low calorie filler (the dog feels fuller despite fewer calories)-- this is one use that I can tell you for grains....


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

hisakix said:


> Phew! That was a long post, I hope I have imparted some basic knowledge and insight to further your understanding of this subject area


LOL, well thank you for typing that all out. I was mostly being rhetorical, because - corn IS digestible (it's just that in whole kernals the digestible bits are tucked inside some indigestible bits, but if it is ground like it is to put in dog food that really doesn't matter) and the body DOESN'T know the difference between amino acids from plant or animal sources. Which is essentially what you said, so my rhetorical questions stand. ;-)

I just get frustrated with people who parrot a party line on any side of an issue, especially the CORN IS EVIL CAN'T DIGEST line. Is there an awesome reason to put corn in dog food? It's mostly price, really, but price isn't an invalid reason if you are on a budget and your dog is doing fine on the food IMO.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Some dogs may digest all of the corn in dog food but Sassy didn't digest all of it. Her poop smelled sweet when she was on a kibble containing corn, it was weird. That is the issue with grains. It does contain perfectly good stuff but sometimes other stuff in it bothers dogs. Any given food can bother any given critter though.

The pancreas works just as hard for any complex carb, grain carbs aren't any different than potatoes or peas carbs. Some grain free foods are much lower in carbs than others! Those ~20% Natural Balance limited ingredient foods are grain free and very high carb.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kathyy said:


> The pancreas works just as hard for any complex carb, grain carbs aren't any different than potatoes or peas carbs. Some grain free foods are much lower in carbs than others! Those ~20% Natural Balance limited ingredient foods are grain free and very high carb.


Yea that's the other thing that drives me nuts about focusing on grains. I'm much more interested in the amount of carbohydrates and secondarily interested in what they are coming from. Most foods don't even list their carbohydrate content, wonder why? :/


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=grain_free

While this doesn't say the carb amounts, it does say which are low and moderate carbs. The Honest Kitchen does list their carbs


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah, dogfoodadvisor.com has a carb percentage too. They deduce it somehow from all the other info they have to provide for the food. But I don't really put too much trust in it, since some of their reviews are either slightly off or outdated. Like, it says TOTW has 36% protein and 20% fat but it actually has 32% protein and 18% fat.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh you can calculate it, too. It's just silly that they don't list it.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Kafkabeetle: I didn't realize it was off on some info but I still find it a good resource for someone looking for grain free but they need low Carb.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

InkedMarie said:


> Kafkabeetle: I didn't realize it was off on some info but I still find it a good resource for someone looking for grain free but they need low Carb.


Yeah, I still think it's a good resource and I still use it myself for general comparisons. It's not difficult to just double check if I'm unsure about something.


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## blues327 (May 2, 2011)

> Yeah, dogfoodadvisor.com has a carb percentage too. They deduce it somehow from all the other info they have to provide for the food. But I don't really put too much trust in it, since some of their reviews are either slightly off or outdated. Like, it says TOTW has 36% protein and 20% fat but it actually has 32% protein and 18% fat.


I could be wrong, but I don't think the numbers are off, I think it's the calculation differences between straight calculating the carbohydrate amount out vs converting the amounts to dry matter first, and then calculating the carbohydrate amount out. This might explain a slight difference you're noticing with dry food numbers because of the 10-12% moisture content in the food.

Calculating the carbs
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dog-food-carbohydrate-content/ 

Figuring out dry matter amounts
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dry-matter-basis/

I thought he usually liked calculating everything to dry matter first in his reviews, and then calculating out the protein/carbs/fat etc., because then the amounts are comparable no matter if it's a dry or canned food.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

blues327 said:


> I could be wrong, but I don't think the numbers are off, I think it's the calculation differences between straight calculating the carbohydrate amount out vs converting the amounts to dry matter first, and then calculating the carbohydrate amount out. This might explain a slight difference you're noticing with dry food numbers because of the 10-12% moisture content in the food.
> 
> Calculating the carbs
> http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/choosing-dog-food/dog-food-carbohydrate-content/
> ...


Huh, I never thought of it. Sounds like an acceptable explanation to me. Thanks for weighing in on that.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I admit to not paying much attention to carbs in dog food until we adopted Katie. She was 11yrs old, morbidly obese, had arthritis & hip dysplasia. I wanted grainfree but low fat and I didn't want to compromise on the ingredients. That site was helpful to me


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## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

You are right about dogfoodadvisor calculating the food into dry matter first, then calculating the carb percentage, but sometimes companies do state how many carbs are in their food and he will still have a different number.....so it looks like different people have different calculations? Anyway.....good site.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Fat is not the enemy in dog food...it's the carbs. Dogs need fat.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

meggels said:


> Fat is not the enemy in dog food...it's the carbs. Dogs need fat.


Well, fat is also really calorie dense, so for a dog that needs to lose weight lower fat could potentially be helpful until the goal is reached. I do think there is something to be said about carbs contributing to weight gain (in dogs and people) but Inked Marie (I assume you were responding to her) said she was looking for low carb, too. I know Sydney does just awful on a low fat diet, but she's also at her ideal weight so it's a different situation.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

kafkabeetle said:


> Well, fat is also really calorie dense, so for a dog that needs to lose weight lower fat could potentially be helpful until the goal is reached. I do think there is something to be said about carbs contributing to weight gain (in dogs and people) but Inked Marie (I assume you were responding to her) said she was looking for low carb, too. I know Sydney does just awful on a low fat diet, but she's also at her ideal weight so it's a different situation.


I'm not sure if Meg was talking to me or not but I needed a low carb and low fat food, or at the time, that's what I thought I needed. Unfortunately, alot of the grainfrees that were out at the time were very high in fat so I probably *did* need the low fat! It worked for my dog anyway


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