# Food aggression towards other dog



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

Whats your best advice for a dog that is food aggressive towards other dogs? My newly adopted dog has become food aggressive, but has no issues with me. She went after my older dog yesterday, and tried again today but I had her leashed. I used to be able to feed them in the same room (not next to eachother) and she would gulp her food but never attempted anything else. I recently got her a slow feeder bowl as well. 

Should I just feed them separately? Will she grow out of it? I'd like to be able to trust them both in the same room while they eat breakfast.

Also this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as behavior issues that are popping up with this monster. She had a rough start in life and shes very sweet, am I better off posting all my questions in one thread?


----------



## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

When the food aggression is directed toward other dogs and not toward people, I would just seperate them during feeding times. Feed them in a crate if they are crated, or in two different rooms seperated by a door or gate. It's always better safe then sorry. Many people in multi dog households do this anyway, even if the dogs have never shown signs of an issue when eating. 

Also, you can probably post all of your questions in one thread (maybe the training thread or general), unless you have some that are really specific (like a health question, for example). 

Also, how long have you had your new dog?


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Welcome to Dog Forums! How long have you had your new dog?

Resource guarding is generally thoughts to be rooted in anxiety - dogs fear that their precious toy, bone, kibble, whatever, will be taken away. And as a new rescue, she's going through a huge transition which can increase anxiety. It will take some time for her feel comfortable in her new home.

I'd recommend feeding separately to prevent any issues and to reduce overall stress. Even if they are in the same room, but unable to reach each other, they can still be anxious about the other dog's presence. Plus, dogs can feel more vulnerable when leashed because their movement is restricted and they can't escape. If she is only guarding meals and special treats (e.g., bones, bully sticks), I'd probably stick with crating or giving the items in completely different rooms (with closed doors in between). She might grow out of it as she becomes more comfortable and confident, but she might not - especially if she's given multiple opportunities to practice.

Here are some resources that may help:
How to Prevent Resource Guarding in a Multiple-dog Household
How to React When Your Dog Begins Resource Guarding Against Other Dogs
Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention (this deals mainly with dog-human resource guarding, but still good information)

It might be better to post your questions in a new thread so they don't get lost. You can ask all your question in your first post - even number them so people can answer the ones they can/want. A general piece of advice is to focus on teaching and reinforcing the behaviors you want rather than focus on eliminating the behaviors you don't want. So, if she jumps on you as a greeting, think about what greeting you'd prefer and teach her to do that. Management is key, too.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I agree with Kayla_Nicole that I would just separate them during feeding time. I like to separate dogs who monitor them closely while eating even if they don't have any RG behaviors - it's just safer and it's not hard. 

It would probably help to post separate questions in separate threads unless they are the same topic, so things don't get lost in the shuffle.


----------



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

I've had her since the end of April. She's about 7-8 months old now, and was most likely living outside on a chain before being dropped at the shelter. She shares all other toys and bones, and typically backs down to my older dog, just seems to want to eat all the food available ever. They switch back and forth on bones and balls and such, so its just meal time. I will just start crating her, hopefully it'll slow her down somewhat eating. I only stuck her on a leash this morning because I wanted to see if she would try it again, and as soon as she was done eating she didn't even hesitate.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

*""I used to be able to feed them in the same room (not next to eachother) and she would gulp her food but never attempted anything else. I recently got her a slow feeder bowl as well. ""*

Am just curious on the timing of change... when did you first notice it... before adding the slow feeder bowl or after)

already great suggestions posted for you from everyone


----------



## 5 s corral (Dec 31, 2007)

feed in a crate


----------



## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

As both a breeder and rescuer...feeding behavior issues are typically an issue. I've dealt with all sorts of issues. But my "default" mode is that I live with my dogs...my dogs are a part of my life...my dogs understand the big issues...all of my dogs...even newly acquired dogs....eat amongst each other. Do "issues" arise....of course they do. Dealing with those issues is ultimately better than AVOIDING those issues by the easier method of simply separating the dogs. Separating dogs never corrects behavior....never allows dogs to deal with their issues. 

I once placed an older puppy (10 months old) that I bred with people who had a five year old of another of my breedings. I got a frantic phone call shortly afterwards that the newer dog (pup) was attacking the OLDER dog while being fed. The older pup had been returned to me weeks before...THANKFULLY. She had led a chaotic life....but that didn't mean she should be forgiven for transgressions. I told these people to ADDRESS strongly the fact that this 10 month old bitch was bullying the five year old dog.....I guess it amazes me that people want to automatically think a dog is what it is...rather than actually take the time to correct an abhorrent behavior. I told this home....pretty much, fix it, or I'll take her back...(meaning, quit being wimps). They fixed it...they didn't resort to separating the dogs..they resort to the whole separation thing, because they BELIEVED IN ME as a breeder that it wasn't necessary. 

If people have issues with dogs behaving properly while eating together...separating them into crates doesn't FIX anything....and if anything...you are perpetuating issues that COULD have been resolved if you would have fixed the feeding situation...it is all connected. Just something to think about.


----------



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

Justdogs... As much as I appreciate your reponse, "JUST FIX IT" is the problem I'm having. I'm here asking how to fix it. It is not fun to be worrying about this dog attacking my older dog. If i have to choose between the two, unfortunately the new dog loses.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

One of my dogs is very possessive about food. I've worked with him on it quite a bit and he's chilled way out to the point that it's no longer a problem (if you search for resource guarding on this forum there are tons of suggestions of methods for how to do this) but I still just feed the dogs separately. Why make dinner time unnecessarily stressful or dangerous? One of them's a fast eater and the other one's a slow eater so it's easiest to just split them up and let the slow one take his time.


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

amberella said:


> Justdogs... As much as I appreciate your reponse, "JUST FIX IT" is the problem I'm having. I'm here asking how to fix it. It is not fun to be worrying about this dog attacking my older dog. If i have to choose between the two, unfortunately the new dog loses.


I agree - it's not helpful to tell someone to just fix it. Lots of the ways that people try to fix RG actually make it worse.

When it's just dog-to-dog, and only during meal time, I'm inclined to just separate them. Why deal with the stress when it's so easy to just put them in crates or different rooms? If it's RG with people I would work on it, of it's RG with another dog to the point of blocking the dog from furniture, or attention, or toys, etc.


----------



## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

One of my dogs is food aggressive with other animals only, not with people at all. We make sure he doesn't get food around other animals. Right now we're dog sitting our neighbor's puppy, and we have three cats, and everyone eats in separate rooms and whatever is left at the end of mealtime (this is more a one cat and the puppy thing) gets picked up, as do bowls and feeding toys and anything else that is reminiscent of food and can be guarded. 

There are training methods for getting dogs used to eating around each other. You figure out the threshold and have each dog on a leash and every time non-aggressive dog gets a treat, aggressive dog gets a better treat, so like... the other dog eating something is the action that results in a reward, then you gradually move the dogs closer and closer. I'd still never feed them together, just to be safe. I wouldn't feed any two dogs together, just seems like inviting trouble.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

amberella said:


> Justdogs... As much as I appreciate your reponse, "JUST FIX IT" is the problem I'm having. I'm here asking how to fix it. It is not fun to be worrying about this dog attacking my older dog. If i have to choose between the two, unfortunately the new dog loses.


We've been on this merry-go-round before, and Justdogs seems unwilling or unable to articulate how to fix it. Just that it should be fixed with methods and because of reasons.

Personally, I agree with others that if the dog RGs with other dogs but not people, I'd be inclined to manage it by simply separating the dogs. Management is not a dirty sin - not every problem has to be FIXED instead of managed.


----------



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

Well I appreciate everyone's responses. She has been fed separately since the incident, however shes progressed from just food issues to everything issues: possessive of me, bones, toys, areas of the apartment (mostly the kitchen). I'm definitely consulting a trainer, I'm just very worried. I'm also taking her to the vet tomorrow to get a blood test and address her incontinence. Any suggestions? I feel like shes a ticking time bomb at times and other times they're sleeping on top of each other like they always do.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ugh, the internet ate my post. I'll try this again.

In the small space of an apartment, it might be a bit tricky to manage a dog who is generalizing. For now, until you get professional help, I would put up toys and bones. Try not to set up situations where it is easy for her to guard you - for example, sitting right next to you or right in front of you when you're on the couch. If she does start to growl/guard you, just get up and walk away - then she's got nothing to guard AND over time it teaches her that guarding you actually makes you go away. 

A "go to your bed/place/mat" command can be very useful for dogs who guard spaces (like your kitchen). If you are working in the kitchen and/or she starts to guard it, you can send her to her place instead. There are videos all over YouTube about how to teach it (I think kikopup has a good one). 

I'd also think about keeping a drag line (a thin, light "leash" which is really more like a cord) on her in the apartment. That way, if a situation starts to get tense you can lead her away without having to approach too closely (potentially escalating the situation for a dog who guards you) or reaching your hand in anywhere near her head.

Good luck!


----------



## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<Well I appreciate everyone's responses. She has been fed separately since the incident, however shes progressed from just food issues to everything issues: possessive of me, bones, toys, areas of the apartment (mostly the kitchen). I'm definitely consulting a trainer, I'm just very worried. I'm also taking her to the vet tomorrow to get a blood test and address her incontinence. Any suggestions? I feel like shes a ticking time bomb at times and other times they're sleeping on top of each other like they always do. >>

Amberella, As you can see, my views regarding feeding dogs together aren't popular, but I also hope you can see that by not fixing that one issue, as I said in my original post, other issues can arise. And again, with your new problems, others advocate avoiding the problem, rather than fixing it. Instead of avoiding situations where problems arise as others have suggested, I'm of the mind to actually create those situations so they can be dealt with. I own very large dogs of a breed that is independent minded...they don't like to be told what to do, because they were bred to work independent of humans. If I want to train them to perform inane obedience behaviors, absolutely I use positive reinforcement. But there is a huge difference in how we train dogs to perform behaviors and simply the relationship we have with them in every day life...basic manners. And for me, that has very little to do with training than it does with how your dog views you as, for lack of a better term....the head honcho of your house. 

I've been told I am either unable or unwilling to articulate how I do this...but that is false...I have articulated it...its just that when I have...that has also come under attack. For instance...I simply disagree that RG is some sort of life-long tag for a dog and that by gosh....avoid everything that sets off a dog labeled as such...and I also disagree with the tactics for dealing with it. So...in your original post, your dog was mis-behaving while eating with your other dog...attacking your other dog.....everybody but me simply told you to feed them separately. Well, now you say your dog is guarding you, toys, places....hmmm. 

So one answer to the dog guarding YOU (which apparently means the offending dog sitting in front of you, growls at another dog that approaches you) means you should get up and walk away...thus avoiding the issue of the dog growling, and this somehow is supposed to teach the dog not to growl when another dog approaches. I've had this happen...even amongst my dogs who all eat together peacefully....as I said...it is NOT an easy breed...they are VERY ego-centric...they want what they want when they want it. But THEY don't dictate MY life....I dictate their life. So every now and then...when one of my dogs comes to me for attention and I am rubbing their ears....and another dog approaches and the first dog growls their displeasure...why should "I" leave??? This is not rocket science! My dogs do not have the power to make ME do things to avoid THEIR problem. So when a second dog approaches me to get the same affection I've been giving the first dog and that first dog growls at the second dog...I simply quit giving affection to the first dog and heap it upon the second. So this is where the whole thing is connected...because these dogs eat side by side with each other, they already know fights are not allowed, but they do know they are allowed to growl to communicate "back off" regarding their food. I allow the growling, when it occasionally happens during feeding...and I make sure the offending dog respects it. I also don't bother with growling when another dog approaches me, AS LONG AS IT GOES NO FURTHER. My simply withdrawing affection is enough of a correction for them to behave, so that 9 times out of ten, I'm scratching the ears of three or more dogs at a time.

I'm sure, Amberella, that you may be asking "but what happens if it goes beyond the growl." And that would be a very good question, and my answer to that is what seems to infuriate most on this forum. Instead of my getting up and LEAVING...thus avoiding educating the growling dog that another dog is ALLOWED to approach me...I stay put and do what I said I do above...my dogs KNOW that while growling is annoying, it will go no further...but I've had newer/younger dogs that at some point NEED to understand the difference between the growl and further action. So that younger/newer dog that growls...that most on this list would label as having RG issues would actually snap at or actually attack a benign offender...they would get a commensurate and swift physical correction from me. No voice...no shouting...no escalation of emotions...simply an extremely swift physical response, that WILL snap that dog out of it's current mind-set. 

There are two main reasons why some people find this objectionable....#1: they are "afraid" of hurting their dogs "feelings." #2: They are afraid that if they intercede in such a manner their dog will BITE them. BOTH reasons are why everybody wants to avoid everything and separate dogs and not DEAL with anything. And if people become paralyzed by the above two reasons...they will only be searching for band-aids and not actual solutions. Both scenarios involve fear for two very different reasons. The root of so many posts on this forum has to do with fear. It is sad....because owning dogs should be about joy. If people FEAR what their own dogs can "do" to them...maybe goldfish would be a better pet. I am not perfect, my dogs are not perfect...but they don't attack each other and they don't attack me. My dogs HATE having their nails done, and quite frankly I hate doing their nails...but it is simply a task that has to be done. (I use a dremel)....I live alone with these dogs...I don't have a second person feeding them peanut butter while I do their nails...They don't like it, I don't like it, but it has to be done. I don't FEAR getting bitten. And more importantly THEY know I don't fear getting bitten. Thus...yes, they aren't always AS cooperative as I'd like them to be, but I certainly don't FEAR the fact they express their displeasure. As I said..it is ALLLLLL connected.

I hope this helps with your dog....you obviously see signs in her that are wonderful. She's STILL a puppy....she's totally workable. I'm happy to become more specific in "how" to correct these issues...but just know that you'll probably get more than triple the responses that I am wrong.


----------



## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

In the vast majority of cases, RG is actually a fear-based response. It looks "aggressive," but it more likely defensive. In the case of guarding food, the dog is afraid of losing the food. Ditto with toys. Really confident dogs are much less likely to guard because they do not live in fear of losing stuff; they know that they can retain it. So here is where things get complicated. If most guarding behaviors are fear-based, what does "punishing/correcting/abandoning/removing" do to solve the problem? In most cases, very little. Often times, the things that people do to "cure" the problem actually escalate it or suppress it in a manner than makes it less predictable.

There are complicated and effective protocols for desensitizing dogs well enough to end RG. However, most of these protocols require maintenance work. Building up the confidence in the RG dog and managing the household and situations is more simple and less likely to result in errors/fights.

I lived with a very unstable/unpredictable but beautifully trained resource guarder for 6 years. She had no issues with people at all, but would occasionally be reactive to dogs. When she was reactive, it was severe. I managed our lifestyle and bolstered her confidence an had a great life, but the problem was never really "gone." I could feed her shoulder to shoulder with the pack and that was fine, but I ended up choosing to crate feed much of the time just so the stress was off of her.

Is your dog showing fear responses in other areas? Is the dog nervous in new places or around new people/objects/animals? If so, perhaps your outlook is good. Your dog is young enough that it's confidence may grow. Your dog could be going through a particularly fearful stage of its development. 

Consider purchasing Jean Donaldson's book, "Mine." It can be very, very helpful.

There are a million different opinions on this matter. You will have to sort through the responses and see which ones fit you, your dog, and your situation best. Every person who is offering advice is sincerely trying to be helpful and is talking about what methods have worked best for them. Because people, dogs, and relationships vary so much, some of the advice will be applicable and some won't. Learn what you can and do the best you can.

For me and mine, and for what it's worth, I err on the side of caution and management. Fear-based behaviors need to be handled with care. Always put safety and the mental health of you and the dog first.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> I've been told I am either unable or unwilling to articulate how I do this...but that is false...I have articulated it...its just that when I have...that has also come under attack.


To be fair, I wrote that post before I read the thing about kicking a dog in the head for resource guarding. So I guess that is one method you did articulate nicely.:/




> So one answer to the dog guarding YOU (which apparently means the offending dog sitting in front of you, growls at another dog that approaches you) means you should get up and walk away...thus avoiding the issue of the dog growling, and this somehow is supposed to teach the dog not to growl when another dog approaches.


It doesn't avoid the issue, and it doesn't "somehow" teach the dog... it pairs a consequence (valued resource disappearing) with an action (guarding). You are fond of consequences, I thought?



> So when a second dog approaches me to get the same affection I've been giving the first dog and that first dog growls at the second dog...I simply quit giving affection to the first dog and heap it upon the second.
> 
> My simply withdrawing affection is enough of a correction for them to behave, so that 9 times out of ten, I'm scratching the ears of three or more dogs at a time.


How is this substantively different than walking away? In both cases, you are withdrawing the resource (owner/affection) from the growler. Why is it ok for a dog to dictate who you pet, but not whether you walk away or not?  Why has the method of me walking away improved the behavior of my resource guarder who guards me, without having to physically punish him?


----------



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

I do think it is fear based RG, she was extremely fearful when she came into the shelter (zero eye contact, head in the corner). She was also a "hanger" dog, in order to remove leashes after walks a stretched out hanger was used to avoid confrontation reaching near her head. She's come leaps and bounds of course, and will greet people she knows with a wagging tail, and will take cookies from strangers in order to make friends, however her behavior has always been defensive. 

The problem I am having trouble understanding is, why is this coming up now? It has gotten MUCH worse in just one week, and although she is now sporting a catch rope and I watch them both like a hawk, two weeks ago they were perfectly fine. Mocha (the RG) was able to go to the park and play with other dogs, she and my other dog Daisy would swap toys, swap bones, etc. I took her to the vet for the incontinence and just to check her hormone levels (thyroid and testosterone?) and her bloodwork hasnt come back, however everyone is just telling me she's trying to find "her place." I'm very used to horse behavior.. they find their place immediately and typically don't challenge it. I thought Mocha would have her place already, she has been here for nearly 3 months, and she STILL shows submissive behaviors to Daisy on occasion. I'm just so confused by it.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Ugh, the internet ate my post. I'll try this again.
> 
> In the small space of an apartment, it might be a bit tricky to manage a dog who is generalizing. For now, until you get professional help, I would put up toys and bones. Try not to set up situations where it is easy for her to guard you - for example, sitting right next to you or right in front of you when you're on the couch. If she does start to growl/guard you, just get up and walk away - then she's got nothing to guard AND over time it teaches her that guarding you actually makes you go away.
> 
> ...


This is all really great advice. The hardest part will be managing/fixing her guarding you. When she is near you, keep on the lookout for any subtle signs of defensive posturing: things like hackles being up, stiff body posture, and what Sue Sternberg calls "Shoulder Stance" - the dog using their body to limit access to you by standing with part of their body blocking you or constantly walking around you - which may precede the other two (IMO its mostly an indication that you are something worth guarding).


----------



## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

Amberella writes <<I do think it is fear based RG, she was extremely fearful when she came into the shelter (zero eye contact, head in the corner). She was also a "hanger" dog, in order to remove leashes after walks a stretched out hanger was used to avoid confrontation reaching near her head. >>

This has happened before...and it is understandable...people want a quick fix and give generic details...but then a more fleshed out story comes to life when people try to help. I thought it a bit "weird" from the beginning that you were putting this dog on a leash while eating, yet you also maintained this dog never had "people issues." Thus...why the distance from a leash? I've actually never heard the term "hanger dog" but clearly the way you describe what that is about a dog that DID indeed have people issues. You said this dog has never had "an issue" with you...but because you know this was a "hanger dog" I'm thinking you actually DO have a fear of confronting this dog. 

Your very first post, you described this dog as a "monster" and in subsequent posts as "a ticking time bomb." But you also related experiences where this dog is FULLY CAPABLE of sharing toys with other dogs, thus this dog DOES have the basic tools of innate instinctual pack behavior. I don't care whether or not you believe me, or the other people who responded to you with their opinions, or simply telling you to read this book or that book, or simply just avoid EVERY situation where this dog appears dangerous...if YOU distrust this dog, because it appears you are affected by the fact he was a "hanger dog." You said you are a horse person and that you understand horse behavior. Horses are prey animals, not predators....science has proven predators are simply more intelligent and more complex than prey animals. While you would be great at rehabilitating an abused horse, and are a great owner of a more normal dog...perhaps you may not be so good at rehabilitating a damaged predator. 

It saddens me that you, based on just a few responses, are now labeling her as a RG...instead of simply a dog that needs to learn the rules of living with other dogs (and/or people). I'll address quickly the character assassinations against me....I do not kick dogs in the head...I don't kick dogs period. "Kicking" a dog requires a certain body position...requires an active stance and will. I will employ the tenets of operant conditioning regarding positive punishment/positive reinforcement/negative punishment/negative reinforcement. I once had sent to me a stud dog to breed to my bitch. He grew up in a kennel environment. He always ate alone. He was sent to me before my bitch was ready....and because he was NEW....I fed him a few FEET away from my four other dogs who ate inches apart, instead of right next to them. Where he ate was right in front of my kitchen sink, and the second or third day I had him...when previously there were NO issues...I decided to wash dishes right after I put his bowl down...he decided to "growl" at me for remaining next to him while he ate...I decided in a split second upon hearing that growl to cock my knee into him (obviously it was his head since it happened to be at that same height) I didn't say anything, I didn't even look at him....he of course went furiously back on his haunches...he may have even uttered a yelp in surprise...but because I didn't show emotion, or even look at him when I did it....he simply went back to eating....and that day, and subsequent days (I made a point of "doing dishes" when he ate from then on) he never again challenged me with a menacing growl. He was a new dog....a dog that unfortunately lived his life in a kennel....yes that was sad.....but that swift correction...that positive punishment that lasted a split second...enabled him to actually RELAX...newsflash...sometimes dogs get too much into their own heads to let crap go!

I employ that same technique...what sassafras calls "kicking my dogs in the head" when my own dogs, who all eat within inches of each other twice a day for years and year on end....occasionally get too touch-feely with me as I prepare their food...I feed a varied diet...they don't get the same boring crap day in and day out....so yep...they get excited...and sometimes "hang" on my legs....nope...not allowed...because that sort of behavior can escalate...so every once and a while...I have to cock my knee into the offending dog...whether it is a head or a shoulder...I could care less...GET OFF ME...they aren't robots....sometimes they need to be reminded. It is not a big deal...it is swift, low impact, no words, no emotions. 

Leashes can be funny things...leashes can sometimes CAUSE problems where a problem may not have ever happened if a leash was never employed. A leash can sometimes incite RG. I have no problem with the "term" resource guarding as long as it isn't used as an excuse rather than a behavior pattern to be FIXED. Amberella...initially you wanted this forum to believe this dog wasn't human aggressive...but since then, you said this dog was a "hanger dog" meaning people couldn't get close to this dog when it was stressed. I'm thinking you are still afraid of this dog. Goes back to my post concerning fear paralyzing people. I don't fear my dogs....in fact...I actually play growling games with my dogs....well...right now...only my one boy who is interested in playing among his two half sisters. He growls fiercely when I act like I am going to take a bone or toy away from him...sometimes I let him win, sometimes I win....but I love to hear his voice...I don't fear his growl, and he knows I don't fear his growl...it is our special game. I can take anything from his mouth at any time. 

Quite simply, I do NOT understand why most people on this list would rather avoid abhorrent behavior, rather than fix it.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Quite simply, I do NOT understand why most people on this list would rather avoid abhorrent behavior, rather than fix it.


They DO want to fix it. But they want to fix it without behaving in a violent bullying manner. There are some behaviors I do not allow myself to indulge in. Besides that, violence (or sometimes even non-violent "corrections") frequently suppresses the behavior instead of actually fixing it.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

So many words to say, "All I got is using physical corrections to fix this." 

Other people want to fix it without physical corrections. I HAVE fixed it in Pip without physical corrections. I notice that despite your wall of text you didn't answer my earlier questions:



sassafras said:


> How is this substantively different than walking away? In both cases, you are withdrawing the resource (owner/affection) from the growler. Why is it ok for a dog to dictate who you pet, but not whether you walk away or not?  Why has the method of me walking away improved the behavior of my resource guarder who guards me, without having to physically punish him?


Physical corrections work for you, great. Other people don't want to use them - that doesn't mean they don't want to or can't fix the problem without _kneeing_ dogs in the head. I'd rather not be a one-trick pony, thanks.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> . I employ that same technique...what sassafras calls "kicking my dogs in the head" when my own dogs, who all eat within inches of each other twice a day for years and year on end....occasionally get too touch-feely with me as I prepare their food...I feed a varied diet...they don't get the same boring crap day in and day out....so yep...they get excited...and sometimes "hang" on my legs....nope...not allowed...because that sort of behavior can escalate...so every once and a while...I have to cock my knee into the offending dog...whether it is a head or a shoulder...I could care less...GET OFF ME...they aren't robots....sometimes they need to be reminded. It is not a big deal...it is swift, low impact, no words, no emotions.


I doubt that I could ever convince the poster, but for others who may be reading this thread on down the line .. the above issue can be EASILY addressed by teaching the dogs a "place" and/or "wait" cue, and a release. Also, practicing basic impulse control exercises. MUCH more preferable than tempting fate, and then getting physical just to get your point across. 



> Quite simply, I do NOT understand why most people on this list would rather avoid abhorrent behavior, rather than fix it.


Honestly, not to nit-pick unneccessarily ... but I'm pretty sure the word you're looking for is "aberrant" behavior, ie: a departure from normal.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> I doubt that I could ever convince the poster, but for others who may be reading this thread on down the line .. the above issue can be EASILY addressed by teaching the dogs a "place" and/or "wait" cue, and a release. Also, practicing basic impulse control exercises. MUCH more preferable than tempting fate, and then getting physical just to get your point across.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, not to nit-pick unneccessarily ... but I'm pretty sure the word you're looking for is "aberrant" behavior, ie: a departure from normal.


Is resource guarding really aberrant though? Its pretty common, and I would say not at all abnormal, especially for dogs that grow up in questionable circumstances... and on the other hand I could see how resource guarding could be considered abhorrent (def: inspiring disgust and loathing; repugnant; not agreeable).


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I feel resource guarding would be a normal expectation for any (animal) cat dog "rabbit" it shouldn't be viewed as offensive or un-natural.. And not That there is something wrong with them since it is within a normal expectation of them. No matter what approach, the focus should be on what they learn that is helpful to you and them, to bring to the next situation. ""sassafras "" said something that I agree with, learning by repeating.. so you are either learning calm, or escalating, and it's up to the owners to pick from their own ability what is natural to them so they can be consistent in teaching skills they can work with when RG comes up. The dog will learn something from the experience might as well be a skill that you can use to make everyone's life better in what you choose to teach them


----------



## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<They DO want to fix it. But they want to fix it without behaving in a violent bullying manner. There are some behaviors I do not allow myself to indulge in. Besides that, violence (or sometimes even non-violent "corrections") frequently suppresses the behavior instead of actually fixing it. >>

Well...I guess that begs the question of "violence" and what SOME people interpret that to mean. I'm thinking there are a LOT of dogs on this forum laughing that they are getting away with stuff because they have figured out humans have a weird sense of "violence." I've been in chickens, now, for about three years. A nice smaller flock...but as with most social type animals (of which dogs are)....there is a hierarchy, and the "big bad" leader of the flock will throw a wicked peck to an underling, and yep...that underling may squeal with pain or surprise....but that underling behaves to the wants of that lead hen. It maintains order. Happens with lions...happens with wolves, happens all over the place in the wild with social species.

The REASON our dogs are what they are is because they are VERY sensitive to hierarchy of leadership. A dog that is "trained" well...doesn't necessarily mean a dog that respects everyday aspects of life....I've known hugely titled dogs that can't eat near other dogs.....again....the difference between training and that dog understanding who is in charge. Obviously not the human. How sad.

Even though it is a red herring...I appreciate petpeeve sounding off about the difference between abhorrent vs. aberrant behavior. I'm actually sensitive to language usage and its butchery...but based on how my views are perceived, I rather think my usage is appropriate. What DOES bother me is despite everything else....that term "resource guarding" is still being used as some sort of issue to employ kid gloves...it is NOT some "issue" that "some" dogs have who clearly have never been properly "read in" to what proper behavior is.

"Resource Guarding." If someone came on your property and wanted to take your car, would you shoot them, or stab them to death? If humans value what they earned...will THEY use violence to keep what they have? Let's talk about lions...resource guarding...if a new male lion defeats the existing leader of the pride, that lion will kill all the cubs sired by the defeated male....it is an instinctual thing....it brings all the females back into heat if they don't have existing cubs. I've watched ravens harass hawks way up in the sky because those ravens are RESOURCE guarding their turf.....yes..."resource guarding" is natural...and depending upon the cirumstance....there are acceptable ways, and NON-ACCEPTABLE ways of dealing with it. Remember the human version. Thus, think about the dog. Lions don't live with people, ravens don't live with people...DOGS live with people...rules are rules. Humans can't kill people simply because someone "says" they might steal your car (growl). 

That whole concept "resource guarding" I simply don't buy, and I will never buy it. For sure, it exists...but it holds no POWER. Dogs NEED to know WHO controls the resources (and it NEVER should be them). *****-footing around it, to me, quite frankly, muck ups the whole deal. I simply don't understand why it needs to take weeks or months to be able to take something out of a dog's mouth, when even on DAY ONE with a rescue, I have always BOLDLY done the same...it is an ATTITUDE...not a process. I've ALWAYS been prepared to be bitten....I've ingrained that possibility into my head, I've engrained in my head that it will hurt...I do this with myself so I'm NOT having that conversation with the dogs that I help. Works wonders. I've never been bitten...and BECAUSE of that attitude, with my rescues, I've never actually had to use positive punishment....the times I've used positive punishment are with dogs that come to my house from actual good homes...people who should know better, but don't. Weird.

Take a dog from a shelter...show him/her the ATTITUDE he/she will understand from the very first meeting, and everything else will be gravy...MOSTLY...there may be some that requires even MORE time, but certainly NOT excuses like being labeled a "resource guarder." Tough love, doesn't mean violence. 

A good analogy, if you care to find it, will be in the movie, "Remember the Titans."


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

And a lot of people HAVE been bitten because they _thought_ they had "the right attitude", and in some places, that just plain gets a dog killed. When there are better ways to handle something, even if it takes some time to work on, it's worth doing right, and minimize the chance of a bite incident.

If you want to risk a bite and not really fix the dog's feelings on the matter, super. Some people want to change their dog's feelings about people being near their stuff, and not risk getting their dog killed because of a bite incident.


----------



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

I refer to Mocha as a "monster" as an endearing term.. all of my dogs/pets/kids are monsters. Little money sucking demons that are so much work but I love every stitch of them. Mocha is resource guarding. The more I read about it the more I see it. She guards me, the food, toys, bones, etc. We are working on it. She's a work in progress. I don't think I could ever trust her, and I think at this point although I want to be her forever home, I think there is another forever home out there for her that she would be happier in, where maybe she can be an only child, or has another dog that doesn't mind if she steals all the toys and love. Daisy is tense, Mocha is tense, everyone is stressed out including me. I have consulted with a trainer for easing the stress of meal time as well as for her reactivity towards people/dogs while on a leash. 

SO, Justdogs, I am sorry that I and many other people and professionals have labeled Mocha a resource guarder based on her behavior of "guarding" her "resources." She does not guard FROM me, but guards ME and other items from Daisy which is resulting in some serious depression for Daisy. Mocha is well aware of who controls the resources, as is Daisy. I do. I'm the winner, I say who comes and who goes and what they get when they get there. The issue is between Mocha and Daisy, and like I said previously, Daisy came first. Daisy is my heart, Mocha has more of a chance to adjust to a new home with some training. She has already gotten so far and we only saw a professional just last week for a session. Not knowing her background, but knowing she's put on 20lbs (and is still built like a little whippet) and most likely lived outside for the majority of her short life, I don't blame her for trying to be in control and hoard all the food/items/people. My goal at this point is to get her to a place in life where she is confident, happy, responsive, and willing to be someone's best friend and I will do what it takes to get her there. But I can't have Daisy stop eating, sitting in the corner, refusing to go out/come back in, and generally living an unhappy life, in order for me to keep this dog. That is the realization I have come to, and it is unfortunate, but I will find the best home I can for Mocha.

Thank you all for your insight, I appreciate it.


----------



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

I also dont see being labled as a "Resource guarder" an excuse. An excuse for what? Her behavior is that of, guarding resources. If dogs didn't guard their resources, they wouldn't survive. I'm not saying she is right or wrong in attacking my other dog for items,_ I_ know shes going to get another meal later, or another bone tomorrow, etc, but_ she _doesnt know that. I don't blame her, but the behavior needs to stop or be managed. Right now, its being managed, until I have another person to help me safely stop it.


----------



## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<I also dont see being labled as a "Resource guarder" an excuse. An excuse for what? Her behavior is that of, guarding resources. If dogs didn't guard their resources, they wouldn't survive. I'm not saying she is right or wrong in attacking my other dog for items, I know shes going to get another meal later, or another bone tomorrow, etc, but she doesnt know that. I don't blame her, but the behavior needs to stop or be managed. Right now, its being managed, until I have another person to help me safely stop it. >>

Dogs come from a social society...that means dogs....regardless of whether or not they actually killed something...may not be permitted to eat at will...unless they are the two top dogs...they have to wait to eat....they aren't ALLOWED to "guard" what they get. This happens with ANY species that has a social hierarchy. If you've ever owned chickens...same thing...there is a hierarchy...never seems fair....but it is nature, and it is what it is. You are wrong in your analysis of dogs needing to guard their resources or they wouldn't survive....their survival relies on their understanding of PACK behavior.

Your thinking your dog exhibits bad behavior because you think your dog doesn't understand it will get food in the future is a HUMAN interpretation....not a dog interpretation. A beta dog in the wild...even though it is starving....will STILL acquiesce to the alpha pair...there STILL are rules. You and others want to cling to labels, rather than the truth. The fact you talk about "safely" stopping this behavior means you and other are AFRAID of your dogs...your current dog Daisy also doesn't seem to have boundaries....it is not just Mocha. You want to change your dogs...but it is not always the dogs that need to change.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

This was posted on Patricia McConnell's blog today. I haven't had a chance to read it, but I generally like her take on dog behavior and training.

Resource Guarding, Dog to Dog

Still, if it's only with certain items or in certain situations, I'd go with management rather than training.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Justdogs said:


> Dogs come from a social society...that means dogs....regardless of whether or not they actually killed something...may not be permitted to eat at will...unless they are the two top dogs...they have to wait to eat....they aren't ALLOWED to "guard" what they get. This happens with ANY species that has a social hierarchy.


What are you basing this on?


----------



## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I'm old and I've owned a lot of dogs.

When I got my first dog 100 years ago, I chose an adult lab who had spent 8 years alone in a kennel. Her people actually dumped food over the fence for her and filled her bowl with a hose so they didn't have to step in with her. She wasn't mean, but she was out of control and a bit insane, most likely from boredom and loneliness. She became my cherished companion and was extremely well-trained, social, and happy. 

During the first week that I had her, she actually caught and killed a rabbit and I went to take it from her. She growled at me and dropped low, guarding her kill. I went to take it from her and she held on tight and continued to growl. I did pretty much what most "pack/alpha/correction-based" trainers would do. I forcefully took the rabbit from her, told her who was boss, and then actually made her retrieve it to me several time. And it worked. We had 6 great years together and she never curled her lip, growled, or challenged me again. 

I really thought I was a special expert because me dog was great.

Eventually, I went on to get many more dogs, foster about 50 more, teach 20 classes full of other dogs, and work around about 1,500 more in kennel settings. I can tell you that my "I'm All Alpha" method would work on a vast majority of dogs. I can also tell you that my "Alpha" routine would get me mauled by some of them. It would ruin another sub-set of more fearful dogs. 

A desensitization approach will work with almost all of them, not get you mauled by any of them, and build up the confidence of the fearful ones who could easily be damaged.

I will not argue that a forceful method can't be highly effective much of the time. I will only caution that some of the time, it can get you injured or ruin a particularly soft dog. Because of this, I think back on my rabbit situation and cringe. Because my dog was stellar, I got away with it. It took a while for me to learn how much more there was to know about dogs. Dogs, like people, come in all sorts of varieties. Being successful with some does not make a person an expert. In fact, handling some of the more fringe dogs will increase a person's skills exponentially.


----------



## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

sassafras said:


> What are you basing this on?


You want facts??? You can't just take their word for it because they are so certain of themselves? Legitimate scientific research means nothing to them but we should just take their word for it. I will admit they are entertaining to read, though I feel sorry for their dogs.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

sassafras said:


> What are you basing this on?


Words. Lots of words.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I think trainingjunkie really hit the nail on the head. Most of the time, with most dogs, we're lucky enough that correction or punishment based techniques can work. And they're appealing because they are simple and quick.

But sooner or later luck runs out, or a very unlucky person reads this type of advice on this forum and happens to have the type of dog that either escalates or is ruined by that method. I'm very passionate about this in part because I am 100% sure Pip would have bitten AND been ruined by it. He's not a bossy dog, quite the opposite he's an extremely insecure dog. Taking some extra time and effort changed his behavior without either one of us getting ruined, and that's... bad? Because I _called_ it resource guarding and it took longer than an hour?

 smh


----------



## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

I never pushed the issue with Jubel and went to trading games. I'm fairly certain Jubel is one of those dogs who would escalate to a bite. He isn't aggressive but he does meet force with force even in playful fun situations. At this point I CAN reach into his mouth and take things from him if needed but that is a result of working with him to create that positive association with me taking things. More often than not if I have to take something he really wants he will get something good for letting me take it. So when those urgent situations arise of so frequently on our walks outside where he's grabbed something harmful off the ground I can reach in and tell him to drop it and he will.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Dogs come from a social society...that means dogs....regardless of whether or not they actually killed something...may not be permitted to eat at will...unless they are the two top dogs...they have to wait to eat....they aren't ALLOWED to "guard" what they get.


Really? And you've seen this? With actual dogs? I've observed semi-feral street dogs, and noooo. It appears that possession is 9/10 of the law in feral dog society. The dog who guards his food the best and fights for it the best if challenged has the most food, period. If they share, it's because it's their offspring or their friend or whatever reason they feel like sharing. But not because actual dogs have an actual social structure that means the top dogs get to eat what some other dog found/killed.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

cookieface said:


> This was posted on Patricia McConnell's blog today. I haven't had a chance to read it, but I generally like her take on dog behavior and training.
> 
> Resource Guarding, Dog to Dog
> 
> Still, if it's only with certain items or in certain situations, I'd go with management rather than training.


I really like Patricia's mantra of "Patient and Polite". And when it comes to management vs training, I used Patricia's technique quite by accident... I just thought that the dogs couldn't guard something if they were each occupied by their own treat at the same time, and boy do they work.  Of course, with Snowball so far I've had to do it with every single new dog that comes into our home, but it has really been effective, doesn't take a lot of work, and the results were quick. Like, treating the dogs together a few times a day over two or three days and now I can treat them one at a time, or either one of them without any problem - they can even eat out of the same hand. 

And when they're guarding me, I just get up and walk away. For the dog who views my attention as the best reward, this (combined with just general settling in) stopped her guarding really quick - a handful of repetitions.

Disclaimer: I don't have an issue with guarding of toys, since only one of the dogs has any interest in toys, and the other completely ignores them other than a single sniff once in a while, so I have no experience in that realm.


----------



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

Justdogs-- How is it that Daisy doesn't have boundaries? Daisy has had her fair share of issues, luckily enough I was able to correct them. Guess how long it took? Years. I am not trying to solve Mocha's problem over night, and am not willing to use force either. I've been desensitizing her and she is really picking up on it. She's also getting frustrated.. particularly with following the rules, but I think she is doing well. I've observed pack behavior as well, I know theres an alpha and they typically control the situation, however, the alpha is often times the dog that guards his resources well. If I wanted to take your sandwich and you punched me in the face, am I going to try and take it again? Probably not. If I went to take your sandwich, you said no, wait til later, til I allow you to.. chances are likely that if I'm hungry enough (and I get wicked hungry) I'm not going to wait very long, and I'm not going to ask you again. I'm going to just take it, because you'll let me have it eventually and I know that. The difference between horse herd behavior and dog pack behavior being based on predator/prey relationships is irrelevant. Yes horses are prey animals, but they still establish the pecking order pretty much immediately. One horse is alpha, one horse gets to pick the pile of hay, or eat all the grain, and when challenged, someone else gets bit or kicked. 

I actually can't address all of your assessments, I'm too tired. But don't you worry, I have no fear of either of my dogs. I know where I stand in my relationship with them and they do as well. The issue is between the two of them, and I just want to help Mocha gain confidence and understanding that anything she wants will always be there, and that Daisy is no threat. It's hard, but she's smart, she will get it.


----------



## amberella (Jun 20, 2014)

Also, thank you for posting the article. I have a whole stack to read when I get home Thursday!


----------



## Justdogs (Dec 23, 2012)

<<During the first week that I had her, she actually caught and killed a rabbit and I went to take it from her. She growled at me and dropped low, guarding her kill. I went to take it from her and she held on tight and continued to growl. I did pretty much what most "pack/alpha/correction-based" trainers would do. I forcefully took the rabbit from her, told her who was boss, and then actually made her retrieve it to me several time. And it worked. We had 6 great years together and she never curled her lip, growled, or challenged me again. >>

What a great work of fiction, trainingjunkie. I don't believe a single word of what you wrote, and more importantly your use of the words "alpha" and "correction-based" and "training" in this particular thread simply has nothing to do with me. I guess I have to keep repeating myself, but things like general house manners, which includes dealing with food aggression toward other dogs, or jumping on a house guest, or counter-surfing, or any number of EVERYDAY dealings isn't about "training." It is a state of mind. 

If I want my dog to heel in a very specific place by my left leg, and retrieve a dumbbell and sit in a particular way in front of me and present the dumbbell, if I want the dog to learn to retrieve an article because of where I put my hand, and jump over a jump that I indicate, that is ALL training. And I have trained those behaviors and I use a combination of positive reinforcement and negative punishment. Now, before everyone screams about that SCARY WORD of "negative punishment," that simply means withholding something good the dog may expect. It goes hand-in-hand with positive reinforcement, ONCE the dog has actually been positively reinforced to do the correct thing...once the dog knows what the right thing is due to positive reinforcement, when it doesn't do the right thing...they don't get the reward...that, simply, is negative punishment. 

Living with a dog and dealing with INATE behaviors is not as cut and dried as in TRAINING a dog to do things. Why? because so many everyday things a dog may do is self-reinforcing to the dog. Countersurfing is self-reinforcing....barking inappropriately is self-reinforcing, intimidating another dog while eating is self-reinforcing...eating a raw bone is self-reinforcing....all sorts of things...and this is why some "rich and well-published" people advocate the whole "trading" regime, and oddly year long "training" strategies to employ when it is NOT an issue of "training!" 

I actually KNOW of people who have attained an OTCH on their dogs (if people don't know what an OTCH means, it is the highest possible title in the competition obedience world) who CAN'T take a bone away from their dog. Oh yes...highly TRAINED dogs...it is an EXTREMELY difficult title to achieve...thus the people do know about dogs....but many of these people don't understand BEHAVIOR....and I've seen it not only in obedience competition, but among people in the show world and in other competitive sports that these people fear less performance if they demand simple manners. They know how to "train" their dogs....but they don't know how to live with them...and yes...they FEAR them...and the dogs know it. 

I hate the word "alpha" because it has been so corrupted that only a fool would pay someone that uses that word when trying to sell dog training crap. I simply live with my dogs, and I'm not afraid of my dogs, and my dogs know I am not afraid of them...they all eat side by side, if one has a medical issue going on and I forget to put a pill in their food, I simply can either reach into their bowl to put the pill, or pick up their bowl to hide a pill, and they don't even have it in their mind to object...because they TRUST me. I can take anything away from my dogs at any time. I don't need "years" to accomplish this. Yes...much to my surprise the first time it happened, I had two bitches suddenly want to fight each other. Most people told me to simply separate them. Screw that....I DON'T play musical crates with my dogs....I DON'T give into THEIR wants...they will conform to what I want...they WILL learn to get along with each other, and whether that involves a squirt bottle, or OCCASIONALLY a physical CORRECTION...peace in my house will happen a LOT quicker than YEARS of tentative little "training techniques" when the issue isn't even about training, BUT BEHAVIOR. 

Trainingjunkie wants everybody to think you will get mauled and there is no way you can know the difference....but that whole post was a bunch of bunk and simply propaganda because how can one discern truth among lies? Absolutely, you deal with shut down dogs differently than outwardly aggressive dogs....that is hardly the point. We are a long ways from that discussion when people obviously fear correcting a self-reinforcing behavior such as aggression while eating.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Being that nobody has whined about negative punishment being "scary", because I think we all know the words around here, and the people recommending counter-conditioning don't fear their dogs, and nobody has talked about anything taking years to accomplish, I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. Counter-conditioning is a well-accepted method of dealing with everyday behaviors one wishes to change. In humans or animals. 

Aggression while eating is not a self-reinforcing behavior like counter surfing. It's an anxiety-based behavior, based on a lack of trust and natural food defense behaviors. Counter-conditioning works great to fix it! If you don't wish to take advantage of a great tool, too bad for you.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Justdogs said:


> <<During the first week that I had her, she actually caught and killed a rabbit and I went to take it from her. She growled at me and dropped low, guarding her kill. I went to take it from her and she held on tight and continued to growl. I did pretty much what most "pack/alpha/correction-based" trainers would do. I forcefully took the rabbit from her, told her who was boss, and then actually made her retrieve it to me several time. And it worked. We had 6 great years together and she never curled her lip, growled, or challenged me again. >>
> 
> What a great work of fiction, trainingjunkie. I don't believe a single word of what you wrote, and more importantly your use of the words "alpha" and "correction-based" and "training" in this particular thread simply has nothing to do with me. I guess I have to keep repeating myself, but things like general house manners, which includes dealing with food aggression toward other dogs, or jumping on a house guest, or counter-surfing, or any number of EVERYDAY dealings isn't about "training." It is a state of mind.
> 
> ...


Training manners is just like training any other behaviour. If they didn't choose to work on that in favour of working on more formal commands... well, that's their choice. Similarly you could also have a dog who was perfectly behaved but didn't know any 'tricks' (for lack of a better word). What's the difference between a 'leave it' (which you would use for counter surfing) and a competition heel? Why can you train one and not the other?


----------



## SoccerSora (Jul 28, 2014)

Message me if you want some help on the aggression if you already havent had it resolved, I work with aggressive dogs.


----------

