# Merle - when it is not seen.



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

So many are fans of merle dogs here I thought I would share this photo of a merle (M/m). This is one that I would just not identify that way, by sight, but his DNA tells us that is what he is.










http://www.freewebs.com/bellacollies/jake.htm

I am more accustomed to merle coloring being almost invisible on sables and red. The three below are all merle as well.



















http://www.cockerpup.com/SablePups.htm










http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/merle.html

SOB


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

In the collie, I can see what looks like a bit merling in his mane.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

fascinating! Thanks for sharing.

Is merle always hidden in Chi's and Cockers?


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Merle is always hidden in e/e dogs - true reds or cream colors. Merle is also easily hidden in clear sables - a sable has a black (eumelanin) based coat unlike e/e dogs, but there is soooo much red in the coat, especially in age, that the merle often goes unseen. Same for Pomeranians. It is most easily detected at birth if you look at the black on the puppy.

Merle is usually most easily seen on black dogs, or dogs with a good amount of black in their coat.

Upendi'smommy, if you look at the site in his puppy pictures you can see something is 'odd' in his coloring.

SOB


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Merle is always hidden in e/e dogs - true reds or cream colors. Merle is also easily hidden in clear sables - a sable has a black based coat unlike e/e dogs, but there is soooo much red in the coat, especially in age, that the merle often goes unseen. Same for Pomeranians. It is most easily detected at birth if you look at the black on the puppy.
> 
> Merle is most easily seen on black dogs, or dogs with a good amount of black in their coat.
> 
> ...


I did check out his puppy pictures after I posted.  He still appears to have a bit of merling visible in the picture you posted, although it could be the way his mane is laying based off other pictures.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

It's hard to say on the collie, mabye on the ruff there's some patch, not sure. On the blond dogs it can be masked by the ee gene, Kilt is a blue merle but could produce ee, which wouldn't show merle....

This is a merle ee border collie:


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

> I did check out his puppy pictures after I posted. He still appears to have a bit of merling visible in the picture you posted, although it could be the way his mane is laying based off other pictures.


I know what you are saying. Even in his adult photo there is a bit of fading in his black . . . but I'd never think merle. Two of the farm collies I was raised with were tris and they had as much fading (slightly different color) when they were ungroomed and old hair was still in their coat.

I've just not seen a tricolor this 'cryptic' before or with such an even distribution of faded color. 

SOB


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> I know what you are saying. Even in his adult photo there is a bit of fading in his black . . . but I'd never think merle. Two of the farm collies I was raised with were tris and they had as much fading (slightly different color) when they were ungroomed and old hair was still in their coat.
> 
> I've just not seen a tricolor this 'cryptic' before or with such an even distribution of faded color.
> 
> SOB


 Oh no doubt he's a fascinating dog. Cryptic merles fascinate me, as do extremely minimal merles.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

I had a friend who had a litter of puppies (out of my old Indy dog) where one puppy was a blue merle. The only merle visible on the puppy was its tail, which was docked at 2 days.
Still a merle


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Stupid question (maybe), but if it is a cryptic merle how do we know it really is a merle?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

+two said:


> Stupid question (maybe), but if it is a cryptic merle how do we know it really is a merle?


When you breed them to a merle and get double-merle puppies? Or less negative, when you breed them to another dog (of a different color) and get the same results as if you bred to an obvious merle.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

DNA testing. Or in some cases merling is visible as a puppy but is not when the dog is fully grown (in a lot of sable merles this happens.)

ETA: Also what Willowy said. My friend's BC's sire looked gold but when he was bred he produced merles in every litter. No one up until then knew he was merle.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Do two merles bred together always produce double merles with health issues? If a daughter of a merle that did not display any merle produce double merles if bred to a merle? Do the puppies that are not merle carry the merle gene? or would they be merle.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

+two said:


> Stupid question (maybe), but if it is a cryptic merle how do we know it really is a merle?


By either breeding and finding out that the dog carried merle, which can be risky, or there is a genetic test now if there's any question. If Kilt ever has a ee pup and it is a dog that might be used for breeding, then I'd have it tested to be sure, since she's a merle and the ee would mask the merle pattern.

In most cases if the dog is spayed or neutered, it doesn't really make a difference, just the off chance that a merle is hidden and then bred to another merle. Some merles can also have very little signs of being a merle, like a white patch on the ear, or a tail that was docked (but the breeder would mark the dog down as merle, I would hope!!!).

A friend of mine has an 'interesting' litter of border collies right now, they were born all blue, or so everyone thought, but now it's more of a grey/silver and black is coming in. Not sure what the actual colouring is just yet, she's testing a pup to see what they carry to find out.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> Do two merles bred together always produce double merles with health issues?


 Some of it seems to depend on the breed. In some breeds, most dogs are merle and many of the ones who appear solid are cryptic merles, yet they don't tend to have the issues that breeds like Collies or Aussies have. Catahoulas are one of those breeds: http://www.donabney.com/issue_merle.php





Bordermom said:


> A friend of mine has an 'interesting' litter of border collies right now, they were born all blue, or so everyone thought, but now it's more of a grey/silver and black is coming in. Not sure what the actual colouring is just yet, she's testing a pup to see what they carry to find out.


 Someone was just telling me they saw those puppies on FB - very strange!


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Kyllobernese said:


> Do two merles bred together always produce double merles with health issues? If a daughter of a merle that did not display any merle produce double merles if bred to a merle? Do the puppies that are not merle carry the merle gene? or would they be merle.


If two merles were to breed, 1/4 of the pups would be solid, 1/2 regular merle, and 1/4 double merles with the higher risk of health issues.
If an offspring of a merle didn't show any signs of a merle, it wouldn't be likely she was a merle unless there was a bit of that pattern on her somewhere. In the case of the ee dog I posted before, he is a merle, but the ee gene masks it - so you'd have to be careful and find out for sure before breeding to a merle in that case. But in most cases it's very clear if a dog is merle or not otherwise, if they don't have the merle pattern then they are usually not a merle and don't have the gene.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Kyllobernese said:


> Do two merles bred together always produce double merles with health issues?


No. There is a 25% chance of a double merle. Not all double merles have health issues. 



> If a daughter of a merle that did not display any merle produce double merles if bred to a merle? Do the puppies that are not merle carry the merle gene? or would they be merle.


I'm confused here. 

If a dog doesn't look merle but it produces a double merle when bred to a merle then that dog is a cryptic merle. 

You cannot 'carry' merle really as it's a dominant gene. The only way it would be 'carried' is if the dog is a cryptic and it's hard to see where the merle is expressed. But it's really not the same thing as carrying a recessive trait as that trait is not expressed at all. Merle in cryptics is expressed, it's just hard to see for whatever reason. Ex: In a light sable dog you often can't tell if a dog is merle. Merle acts on the black portions of a dog's coat so if a dog doesn't have much black in their coat to begin with, you won't see it. Note that 'red' in red merles is a form of black pigment (eumelanin) genetically speaking.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

how about this one...  old dog of ours, Brindle merle



















confused the heck out of people, because they would see him brindle then we would shave him down and all of a sudden....










we used to get arguments from people, insisting that it wasnt the same dog lol


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

upendi'smommy said:


> In the collie, I can see what looks like a bit merling in his mane.


That was my first thought too.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

Brindle and merle are odd colors on some coat types. We get dogs into the grooming shop sometimes who appear to be solid colored then when shaved they are striped or spotty.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> When you breed them to a merle and get double-merle puppies? Or less negative, when you breed them to another dog (of a different color) and get the same results as if you bred to an obvious merle.


You could DNA for color. Or, test breed to a dog proven to be mm. If you have merles, then you know the dog is merle. If not, you'd have a litter of mm, but especially if the litter is small, there could still be some doubt.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Miss Bugs said:


> how about this one...  old dog of ours, Brindle merle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guyuess the brindle doesn't show on him? He just looks like a merle to me.


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## alilyinthefield (Oct 20, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> You cannot 'carry' merle really as it's a dominant gene. The only way it would be 'carried' is if the dog is a cryptic and it's hard to see where the merle is expressed. But it's really not the same thing as carrying a recessive trait as that trait is not expressed at all. Merle in cryptics is expressed, it's just hard to see for whatever reason. Ex: In a light sable dog you often can't tell if a dog is merle. Merle acts on the black portions of a dog's coat so if a dog doesn't have much black in their coat to begin with, you won't see it. Note that 'red' in red merles is a form of black pigment (eumelanin) genetically speaking.


ok, I'm a bit confused, so are we saying that cream/buff dogs are just ee? and Red dogs are ee with a modifier? 

I'm coming at this from a knowledge base in horse color genetics, where EE is homozygous black and ee is homozygous red and 'creme' is a whole different set of genes that modify the black and red genes. just as the dun gene is another modifier with a whole separate set of expressions. Are you saying that in dogs it works the opposite?

Does anyone have any good genetic links describing the modifiers as they pertain to dogs only? I've always found color genetics fascinating, but this thread is confusing me a bit.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I don't know a lot about horse color, but dogs are like horses (and other mammals) in that the extension locus - with E and e alleles - is the one that determines if the coat will be black based (eumelanin) or red based (phaeomelanin). 

Cream/buff dogs are ee (red) on the extension locus. Another locus, or a few of them, can modify this red coloring to make it lighter (all the way to white) and possibly make it more intense. In dogs Little postulated that the gene most responsible for this was the chinchilla gene and proposed the letter "C" for its dominant form, with the lesser dominant alleles being c'ch', and c'e'(extreme-white). He proposed this as it was one known of in rabbits I believe. In dogs people often call the chinchilla gene the cream gene and vise versa. The gene, however, by itself does not create cream. It is in its interactions with the other genes that cream is created from the phaeomelanin in the coat - best seen on ee dogs as they have the most phaeomelanin.

Unfortunately when looking for DNA, I believe the chinchilla gene, at the location similar to where it would be found in other mammals, has been ruled out.

Two helpful sights: 

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/

I believe what Laurelin meant by a red merle - as the term 'red' is often used for brown dogs (black based) in some of the breeds she is involved in - is what I would call a merle brown tricolor, like this guy. His normal black coloring on the tricolor coat has been modified to brown - on coat and leathers as well - by bb at the brown locus. He is also merle.

She is stating that what is called 'red' on his coat is really brown, and that is E based, and therefore affected by merle.










http://www.rrvasc.org/aussie_info.html

Not an ee red then at all, but probably a't'/a't',E/E, k'y'/k'y' and M/m (plus many others not required for this purpose).

SOB


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

A regularly marked red merle dog would be (in no particular order) Mm, bb, EE. A regularly marked blue merle would be Mm,BB or Bb, EE

Mm for Heterozyous merle, bb for pure for red (liver) BB for pure for black, Bb for red carrier. EE for not carrying the e-locus yellow, though the dog could also be Ee. Not that common in my breed. Then there is that whole other theory of red and black that is opposite of everything I've ever learned from Aussie geneticists.



alilyinthefield said:


> ok, I'm a bit confused, so are we saying that cream/buff dogs are just ee? and Red dogs are ee with a modifier?
> 
> I'm coming at this from a knowledge base in horse color genetics, where EE is homozygous black and ee is homozygous red and 'creme' is a whole different set of genes that modify the black and red genes. just as the dun gene is another modifier with a whole separate set of expressions. Are you saying that in dogs it works the opposite?
> 
> Does anyone have any good genetic links describing the modifiers as they pertain to dogs only? I've always found color genetics fascinating, but this thread is confusing me a bit.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

What do you mean by 'regularly marked'? Are you talking about the tan markings?

I did forget the brown allele in that string, so thanks for adding that.

SOB


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## alilyinthefield (Oct 20, 2011)

Ah, THANKS, I get it now! thank you for the links as well, I'll be sure to check them out


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

went and looked at the collie's website information. She describes him as being "maltese" dd which is a completely different modifier than M, and is a recessive. But she describes the "merle" as being evenly distribted, producing an over all dilution. Maybe this is possible in collies. I've never heard of it in Aussies.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


> What do you mean by 'regularly marked'? Are you talking about the tan markings?
> 
> I did forget the brown allele in that string, so thanks for adding that.
> 
> SOB


In my breed, that would be A) not having overly extended white trim - which could be MM instead of Mm B) not being a non-standard color - for instance ee or dd


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Out of curiosity, does anyone here know of a M/M e/e dog? That is, a double merle who is yellow/red (depending on your breed affiliation). Wondering if the e/e would mask the double merle sufficiently to prevent the semi lethal aspect, or if the double merle would be "strong" enough to show through and potentially still cause problems.

Bordermom-- I saw those pups. It'll be interesting to see what the olor genetics say. Very bizarre.


Bordermom said:


> A friend of mine has an 'interesting' litter of border collies right now, they were born all blue, or so everyone thought, but now it's more of a grey/silver and black is coming in. Not sure what the actual colouring is just yet, she's testing a pup to see what they carry to find out.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> went and looked at the collie's website information. She describes him as being "maltese" dd which is a completely different modifier than M, and is a recessive. But she describes the "merle" as being evenly distribted, producing an over all dilution. Maybe this is possible in collies. I've never heard of it in Aussies.


This is from the website linked: 

_. . . Jake is registered Blue Merle. However *his variation* has been called gunmetal gray or Maltese. The merling is more evenly distributed, which results in a nearly uniform gray all over. Now due to the sun he is a bit of a rust color. . . . _

_. . . So far merle testing has been run and it has shown he is, as he is registered, *heterozygous merle.* More test results to come!!!_

Heterozygous merle means he is Mm, the large M standing for the dominant merle gene, hetozygous meaning it is paired with non-merle (m).

She calls this Maltese Merle, but has not inferred it is dd. There is no statement that this is the same as dd and recessive.

As well, from his breeder and from this discussion about him on the borderwars blog: http://www.astraean.com/borderwars/2011/07/double-merle-breeders-in-their-own-words-1.html



> If you think regular sable merles are cryptic, you should see Maltese sable merles! There are several reasons I did not personally retain a Maltese blue by Jake for breeding (most of them involving their mellowness making them not especially suited for farm work), but one of them was the fact that this is what a Maltese sable merle looks like: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/6067504257/in/set-72157627364411297 *Accidental double merle breedings could happen if Maltese blues were mistaken for dd, as well*.
> 
> Had I chosen a pup who also happened to be Maltese like Jake, I would’ve proceeded in breeding this color with care. That is part of the reason I continued to talk about how it appeared to inherit dominantly, despite being laughed at initially for claiming it wasn’t dd. I’m glad I eventually caught Leigh’s attention, as I believe further research of this color is important. It and Jake’s family have enough of a following that I don’t believe they’re going away anytime soon.
> 
> Merry


SOB


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> Do two merles bred together always produce double merles with health issues? If a daughter of a merle that did not display any merle produce double merles if bred to a merle? Do the puppies that are not merle carry the merle gene? or would they be merle.


If two Mm dogs are bred together, they have a 25% chance of double merle puppies. However, that is a roll of the dice on each puppy. So you could get more or less than 25%. If a daughter of a merle is not merle she may produce merle puppies if bred to a merle, but they will be normal Mm dogs. Merle is a dominant gene. So if a dog is not merle, they can not contribute merle.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

[She calls this Maltese Merle, but has not inferred it is dd. There is no statement that this is the same as dd and recessive.

SOB[/QUOTE]

Maltese is generally the term used for dd. If he's DNAed as a merle, he's a merle. But he could also be dd, which would be different. At any rate, if he's not dd, its confusing to state that he's a maltese (not the fuzzy white dog) Key would be looking at nose and eye pigment. In the puppy pictures especially, his nose looks slate blue. Merling wouldn't do that.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Anyone know anything about lethal silver in collies?


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

> Anyone know anything about lethal silver in collies?


I understand it is recessive in inheritance mode and there is a DNA test for it.

I would think that if he has been DNA screened and tested to prove he is merle, they would have looked at gray collie syndrome and as well the possibility of dd, especially as his breeder insists this color is caused by merle and not dd, and has been questioned on that.

I agree that in one pup photo his nose looks blue - but it is just one photo and it could be lighting. Wish there were more.

For anyone that wants to look more closely at some relatives there are photos of a pup he has sired with his coloring. The pup looks to have a black nose. Again this black nose could just be lighting.

Jake LOOKS dilute to me, BUT there are other coat colors that can be arrived at through different genetics so what'll prove this out will be what he produces. So far, with three breedings on two un-related females, he has thrown this slaty type color in some pups. It could be both girls carried dilute, or, as his breeder insists, he is an odd merle type.










http://www.freewebs.com/bellacollies/jakegypsybabies.htm

His sire and dam (sable) can also be found on google images. His sire is a color headed white merle with what looks to be a similar type of merling to Jakes (at first glance, I'm off for a walk and will look for more ancestral photos later).










http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/rough_collie/dog.html?id=1220164

His dam is here: - http://niamhsmistymeadowscollies.freehomepage.com/favorite_links.html

SOB


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

So no ideas on the M/? e/e effect?

http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/107396-merle-when-not-seen-2.html#post1132785


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Shaina said:


> Out of curiosity, does anyone here know of a M/M e/e dog? That is, a double merle who is yellow/red (depending on your breed affiliation). Wondering if the e/e would mask the double merle sufficiently to prevent the semi lethal aspect, or if the double merle would be "strong" enough to show through and potentially still cause problems. . . ..


Shaina I thought I could easily find e/e and M/M pups if I got to looking. I could not. In fact it is incredibly hard to find double merle Cockers at all. This is probably because merle has been a color incredibly discouraged in most of the breeds that also have e/e members, and the rare breeders championing are being careful.

There are many e/e and M/m dogs, however, with blue eyes. That indicates to me that the merle still affects the pigment cells of the dog that are not involved in its coat. I would think that e/e dogs would suffer the same troubles with double merling as E/e dogs. Chemically, to me, it makes sense that all the same effects would be found, but for the effects on the coat shaft.

There is an early Cocker referred to at the following link that is interesting. He was thought to be Albino. I now wonder if he was not a double merle.

http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/28/3/103.extract

http://akcmisfits.wikia.com/wiki/American_Cocker_Spaniel

SOB


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> I guyuess the brindle doesn't show on him? He just looks like a merle to me.


 I think so too. Merle can look different on shaggy coats.A couple other merle RF PyrSheps:


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

spanielorbust said:


> Shaina I thought I could easily find e/e and M/M pups if I got to looking. I could not. In fact it is incredibly hard to find double merle Cockers at all. This is probably because merle has been a color incredibly discouraged in most of the breeds that also have e/e members, and the rare breeders championing are being careful.
> 
> There are many e/e and M/m dogs, however, with blue eyes. That indicates to me that the merle still affects the pigment cells of the dog that are not involved in its coat. I would think that e/e dogs would suffer the same troubles with double merling as E/e dogs. Chemically, to me, it makes sense that all the same effects would be found, but for the effects on the coat shaft.
> 
> ...


I looked around as well and couldn't find anything. I thought perhaps if someone had a merle e/e and didn't realize the dog was merle due to the masking, and bred to a merle (either known or not), it could happen...but since I couldn't find anything on it at all I thought maybe it didn't have the same effect so they didn't realize the resulting pup was a M/M. Or else it was just hushed up/not publicized, or is simply so unlikely to accidentally happen that it hasn't. 

Thanks for your input -- interesting theory. Unfortunately it's one of those things where no one can ethically just do it to see what happens because of the potentially crippling effect on the puppies.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

on MM and ee, I also suspect the merle gene would act on the distribution of pigment. Since ee dogs can have the irish pattern white (si) or piebald (sp) white, obviously that is not masked by ee. Problems in homozygous dogs isn't related to the dilution of the base color, but the distribution of melanin. I can't provide proof of this at this moment, but have heard and seen that if the dogs already have a fair amount of white trim in their genetics, MMs will usually have less pigment than MMs who come from a line which is S. So, an Aussie from a line with si (very common in show lines) is more likely to show an extreme lack of pigment than an Aussie from a line which is S (minimal white trim) - more common in working lines. Those dogs would likely look like an si (white in the usual irish pattern) where an si would likely look more like a sp, or even albino. Since most of the hearing and vision problems are directly related to lack of pigment, dogs who come from S parents are less likely to be affected than dogs who already carry a lot of white trim. This would explain why, while double dapple dachshunds and MM catahoulas can have vision and hearing problems, those problems aren't as prevalent as they are in dogs who already carry genes for less pigment.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

A Catahoula breeder was recently speaking to this on the cangen L list. She said the same. Apparently MM still can be a problem in that breed, but the occurances of it being a problem are much less common than in others because they very actively select for dogs without the tiniest bit of white spotting. 

SOB


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> on MM and ee, I also suspect the merle gene would act on the distribution of pigment. Since ee dogs can have the irish pattern white (si) or piebald (sp) white, obviously that is not masked by ee. Problems in homozygous dogs isn't related to the dilution of the base color, but the distribution of melanin. I can't provide proof of this at this moment, but have heard and seen that if the dogs already have a fair amount of white trim in their genetics, MMs will usually have less pigment than MMs who come from a line which is S. So, an Aussie from a line with si (very common in show lines) is more likely to show an extreme lack of pigment than an Aussie from a line which is S (minimal white trim) - more common in working lines. Those dogs would likely look like an si (white in the usual irish pattern) where an si would likely look more like a sp, or even albino. Since most of the hearing and vision problems are directly related to lack of pigment, dogs who come from S parents are less likely to be affected than dogs who already carry a lot of white trim. This would explain why, while double dapple dachshunds and MM catahoulas can have vision and hearing problems, those problems aren't as prevalent as they are in dogs who already carry genes for less pigment.





spanielorbust said:


> A Catahoula breeder was recently speaking to this on the cangen L list. She said the same. Apparently MM still can be a problem in that breed, but the occurances of it being a problem are much less common than in others because they very actively select for dogs without the tiniest bit of white spotting.
> 
> SOB


As spanielorbust said, I've mostly heard of that phenomenon with regards to Catahoulas...apparently there are quite a lot of M/M dogs in that breed who do not demonstrate the issues seen in dogs who commonly show piebalding. I would love to see actual data on it though as everything I've personally seen is anecdotal at best.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> I can't provide proof of this at this moment, but have heard and seen that if the dogs already have a fair amount of white trim in their genetics, MMs will usually have less pigment than MMs who come from a line which is S. So, an Aussie from a line with si (very common in show lines) is more likely to show an extreme lack of pigment than an Aussie from a line which is S (minimal white trim) - more common in working lines. Those dogs would likely look like an si (white in the usual irish pattern) where an si would likely look more like a sp, or even albino. Since most of the hearing and vision problems are directly related to lack of pigment, dogs who come from S parents are less likely to be affected than dogs who already carry a lot of white trim. This would explain why, while double dapple dachshunds and MM catahoulas can have vision and hearing problems, those problems aren't as prevalent as they are in dogs who already carry genes for less pigment.


 That is my understanding as well. I actually wondered if the working line merle Aussies were as prone to issues with merle x merle breeding as show Aussies, Collies or Shelties. I also have wondered if there is any relation to breeders selecting for the "clear" lighter blue merles vs. the "muddy" darker ones. There most definitely has been selection for "prettier" merles in some breeds for show. Working bred breeds that come in merle seem to be the more "muddy" version.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> A Catahoula breeder was recently speaking to this on the cangen L list. She said the same. Apparently MM still can be a problem in that breed, but the occurances of it being a problem are much less common than in others because they very actively select for dogs without the tiniest bit of white spotting.
> 
> SOB


Do you know if it is similar with koolies? I looked into it a bit years and years ago (probably about 4 now) and saw that merle x merle was common in that breed and the breeders said they didn't have issues like other breeds. There was even the thought in that breed that solid colored dogs were 'throwbacks'. Then I had a breeder in the US tell me that it was a problem in the breed to breed merle x merle.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> went and looked at the collie's website information. She describes him as being "maltese" dd which is a completely different modifier than M, and is a recessive. But she describes the "merle" as being evenly distribted, producing an over all dilution. Maybe this is possible in collies. I've never heard of it in Aussies.


I associate the term "maltese" with dd dilution. Someone brought up horse genetics, horses have a lot more forms of dilution than dogs do. Dogs just have one gene for dilution, and it's often called maltese dilution. 

I do not believe the owner/breeder of this merle Collie Jake is using the term maltese in that sense. She's using it as a modifer of merle, like harlequin.

This is why there needs to be a standardization of color terms in dogs.


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## Alerondogs (Mar 23, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Do you know if it is similar with koolies? I looked into it a bit years and years ago (probably about 4 now) and saw that merle x merle was common in that breed and the breeders said they didn't have issues like other breeds. There was even the thought in that breed that solid colored dogs were 'throwbacks'. Then I had a breeder in the US tell me that it was a problem in the breed to breed merle x merle.


 My understanding is that it is. And as with Cats, many people believe that even appealingly solid colored Koolies are often actually merles too. There is a ton of merle x merle breeding in that breed as well.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Shaina said:


> Out of curiosity, does anyone here know of a M/M e/e dog? That is, a double merle who is yellow/red (depending on your breed affiliation). Wondering if the e/e would mask the double merle sufficiently to prevent the semi lethal aspect, or if the double merle would be "strong" enough to show through and potentially still cause problems.


I have an interesting anecdote. My step-dad's co-worker bred their two Dachshunds together. The female was red with a black nose and no white, and the male was blue merle/dapple, also no white. Most of the puppies came out red like the mother, one was black and tan, and the last puppy was very strange. He was white with pale cream/peach colored patches, like in a piebald pattern. He had light colored eyes, too. And he suffered from a bunch of health problems, including deafness and poor vision.


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## BooRoy (Sep 3, 2012)

"I agree that in one pup photo his nose looks blue - but it is just one photo and it could be lighting. Wish there were more.

For anyone that wants to look more closely at some relatives there are photos of a pup he has sired with his coloring. The pup looks to have a black nose. Again this black nose could just be lighting."


How surprising to have a picture of my puppy pop up in this thread...or maybe not, lol! FYI his nose is black not blue, his eyes are brown as are the eyes of all of the other "Maltese blue" pups Jake has sired. My dogs name is Zephyr and he is quite healthy. His color is (at one year old) a warm medium gray and the only typical merle markings are on his head and ears. 
If you would like to see more photos of him: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.244034712310074.61446.100001106402973&type=3


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## BooRoy (Sep 3, 2012)

spanielorbust said:


> I understand it is recessive in inheritance mode and there is a DNA test for it.
> 
> I would think that if he has been DNA screened and tested to prove he is merle, they would have looked at gray collie syndrome and as well the possibility of dd, especially as his breeder insists this color is caused by merle and not dd, and has been questioned on that.
> 
> ...


Here is a shot of my Zephyr with a Tri....as you can see both have very black noses.
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f....244034712310074.61446.100001106402973&type=3


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