# sighthounds coursing coyotes.



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkTw8u6qY2M


----------



## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Wow! So cool to watch!


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Nothing better than watching dogs do with they were bred to do (or as close to it as possible), awesome videos!

Someone posted on FB a while ago, a video of a pack of greys running down a coy and it was an AWESOMELY shot video, but alas, I cant find it anymore or I'd have posted it here, too.


----------



## griffinflames (Sep 19, 2015)

That just totally changed my perspective on greyhounds as the stereotypical 40 mph couch potatoes. Holy smokes, they are fast and brutal.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLJ72dklzAY ?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Fast, brutal, and awesome!


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

There is nothing like seeing a dog do what they were made to do.


----------



## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

Really cool to watch. Had to look away when they showed them ripping into the coyote, but I know it's needed in some areas. Great to see dogs out working and loving what they do like that. So fast!


----------



## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

That is impressive watching them go! Truck can barely keep up! I just wish there wasn't a living thing on the other end (I know, I know - it needs to be done in many places...and it's probably better than trapping and/or poisoning...still makes me a little sad, though.)


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

BellaPup said:


> That is impressive watching them go! Truck can barely keep up! I just wish there wasn't a living thing on the other end (I know, I know - it needs to be done in many places...and it's probably better than trapping and/or poisoning...still makes me a little sad, though.)


A lot of coyotes are too wily for traps and yes poisoning hurts the ecosystem (because everything that feeds on the dead coyote dies).


----------



## CiElBie (Mar 5, 2016)

Then why not get a gun and shoot them? Its a lot less painful if you accurately shoot and kill them first time then letting them get mauled by dogs. 
I personally would prefer just one shot to the head than to be torn apart alive 

Or, get some livestock guardians if coyotes are killing the animals instead, as that is what a livestock guardian is designed to do? Scare away wolves, bears, and other predators? And its a dog doing what it was bred to do, which people think is amazing! Plus, they can end up teaching packs of predators to not go near this farm as the livestock guardians are there, thus stopping even more potential attacks.
Perhaps that isnt as thrilling.

Also, wouldnt this count as dog fighting since technically coyotes can breed with dogs, and are from the same family? Wouldn't it? I honestly dont know the law behind this, I could be entirely wrong. I dont see how it would be too much different though.

Imma get a lot of backlash for this comment I reckon, since comments like these usually get the "tree hugging PETA" responses, even though I also really hate PETA too. I personally would feel it to be absolutely horrific to have my dog torn apart by another dog, in fact, it breaks the news often when a pitbull does just this. People go mental!

Yet its fine if its a coyote getting killed in this manner, because they hunt for food and to survive, and may possibly kill a cow that is sitting in a field that farmers put there...


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

A-) No, it's not dog fighting. Coyotes are not dogs. Yes, inbreeding is possible, but they're wild animals not OWNED by someone else, nor protected by our animal laws. No more so than the mice you trap or kill or put a snake out to eat in the barn are. They're pretty, they're big, and they're pest animals at this point - dangerous ones. 

B-) that cow sitting in a field is 'some farmer's livelyhood and how he feeds and clothes his family. It's a loss of income. That's a problem. It's why killing/shooting DOGS going after livestock is legal in most areas.

C-) Livestock guardians do not scare off predators. Yes, they'll bark first and if the predator goes away fantastic. However, that's not often the case. LGD can, and will, fight - sometimes killing them, sometimes being killed by them.

D-) Shooting a coyote can actually be illegal in many areas based on gun discharge laws, and even where it's not/hunting is legal it can be a serious strategic issue. Ie: One clean shot my butt, that isn't easily accomplished. Particularly in a field with your livestock. There are repercussions there you aren't considering at all.

I like coyotes as well as other wild animals, but your arguments here rely on a lot of ... not even misinformation but total lack of information about livestock, coyotes, wildlife management, and livestock guardians.


----------



## CiElBie (Mar 5, 2016)

Dogs are domesticated, coyotes are not. However, at the end of the day, one is simply not useful to people and one is. I dont see too much of a difference myself, but I guess law would say otherwise. I consider it similar, but law doesnt, so hey ho.
Coyotes and dogs can breed to create fertile offspring, which in biology means they are the same species according to the biological species concept.

If the coyote is going after the cow, then I may just be stupid, but the coyote is making the advances. Gosh I sound like a hypocrite in my own head. 

Yes, i know very well they do often kill the animals, even a fight to the death, with one getting mauled as a huge possibility. However, its still seems better protection for the livestock rather than kill some yotes and hope that your animals dont get killed any longer. Even if it means you are no longer wasting hours going out with a large pack of greyhounds, tracking down yotes to kill. I dont know, im not going into it. 

Yes, I guess people arent that skilled at shooting in actuality. At the same time, Im saying there are other ways to kill the yote without having it mauled to death. It seems rather inefficient to go out searching for yotes to kill and then have them mauled to death by dogs.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In fact, according to this study here:
https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_h...wnloads/cattle_calves_pred_deathloss_2010.pdf
and this one here:
http://www.wildearthguardians.org/s...fe_war_wildlife_livestock_losses#.Vvv8--IrLIU

both will clearly show that predators are by far one of the fewest reasons for death of livestock. So, yeah.

Also, if you kill predators, there will be more prey as less prey such as deer or vermin such as rats are killed by coyotes. Deer eat crops, which is again, the farmers livelihood.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

on the fence..... because there needs to be a balance since coyote's do serve a positive purpose taking out other vermin populations, Didn't see any livestock out in the fields that were in danger in the video. your killing just to kill.. My LGDs have had one predator kill inside the barn and if there was a den of them they have moved out completely out. They do spend all night at times barking and patrolling. I don't want all of predators killed, plenty areas of my land that my poultry and fowl are not. 1000's of acres out here and for years the ground predators have been going around our land and onto the small livestock farms that are 1 and more miles right past us.. having a large group of GSDs in the past and the llamas serving as first defense guardians in the pasture that surrounds the homestead. Don't have the GSD's any more just the LGDs and llamas... they still move around us and keep going...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CiElBie said:


> Then why not get a gun and shoot them? Its a lot less painful if you accurately shoot and kill them first time then letting them get mauled by dogs.
> I personally would prefer just one shot to the head than to be torn apart alive
> 
> Or, get some livestock guardians if coyotes are killing the animals instead, as that is what a livestock guardian is designed to do? Scare away wolves, bears, and other predators? And its a dog doing what it was bred to do, which people think is amazing! Plus, they can end up teaching packs of predators to not go near this farm as the livestock guardians are there, thus stopping even more potential attacks.
> ...


First of all it is not technically dog fighting. Dogs are allowed to hunt and dispatch unregulated nuisance wildlife. 

As for shooting with a firearm. Coyotes are notoriously difficult to hunt. If an area has not been hunted it is usually easy to pick off a couple. (I am basing this on years of coyote removal.... And all of mine has been done with firearms) But you educated them real quick. They will quit coming to calls. And if you call one in and miss your chance. Either by missing the shot or spooking the animal.... You will likely never get a second chance at him. I have hunted coyotes in places that have seen a lot of hunting pressure. I have watched them run from a call. I have watched them run after catching the scent of a bait attractant.

Reducing coyote numbers with a firearm is very time consuming as well. Not really a best practice. And if you think it is an easy shot... You are welcome to come give it a try.... I will set you up in a blind and even call for you. People that are great shots miss, wound etc...


And you don't have good grasp of LGDs.... The most certainly do fight and kill coyotes at times.... I have a pasture I lease out to a guy that raises goats. He has a LGD out there. Dog came in December I think.... Current count is 4 coyotes, two bobcats, one lower rear leg from a coyote that has not been accounted for yet and evidence of a couple of other fights. Granted this place was eat up with coyotes (even though we had been shooting them out for years) The dog came in and bam bam bam he got several and a bobcat... Then it got quiet for weeks and weeks. Then about 10 days ago, he started getting coyotes again. And evidence that he has fought some more. Not hard to tell if he has been in a scrap... When a big white dog has blood stains on his coat it is pretty noticable. 

The use of dogs... Both sight hounds and scent hounds is listed among "best practices" by MANY state government organizations, Ag Extension agencies and even the Federal Government. 

Better than traps and poisons which kill anything that crosses their path. 
More effective than firearms. 

there is a large expense with the upkeep of the dogs. But the dogs are efficient. It is directed.. .You are not killing bobcats, birds of prey, foxes, raccoons, harming bears, wolves, panthers, etc. 

but it is not like every farmer or rancher needs a pack of hounds. what happens is there will be one guy that enjoys doing it. Has the dogs, puts in the time etc. And multiple property owners allow him on their land to hunt. Even pay him to do so. Much like I have done all of my life with feral hogs. You have a few guys and some dogs. You get a reputation of producing and being respectful to the landowners property. And you end up with access to more property than you can effectively hunt. 


And while the dogs on that coyote looks awful and violent. It is still pretty efficient. That coyote was dispatched much faster than the sheep it had eaten. Coyotes are not all that efficient at killing. In fact, they do not really care if they kill their prey at all. They will wound an animal to the point it cannot get away and start eating. While the animal is alive. 

The dogs have it over in a matter of seconds. Compared to trapping? Poison? Dogs are far more humane.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

It looks like the dogs are killing the coyotes faster than even a slightly imperfect shot would. 

Coyotes often boom in population in human-inhabited areas, because we fend off their competition while increasing their food supply - they're very adaptable and clever. I like them, but they are a nuisance animal in my area.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Another thing to remember..... 
The coyote is dispatched long before the dogs are pulled off.... Death happens pretty quick. But it is very typical with varmint dogs and hunting dogs that are killing the prey, to allow the dogs to continue on for a while. The act of "killing" and worrying the prey is the dogs reward.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Anyone who thinks coyotes aren't a problem hasn't lived in area with a lot of coyotes. They will pick off small dogs, cats and farm animals. They get wise to traps and go around, under and over fencing and other barriers. They will haunt popular dog walking areas in order to attack small dogs- on leash, with the owner right there. There are places where the coyotes have made it dangerous for people to go outside at night.

Yes, coyotes are beautiful. Yes, they are necessary to the ecosystem. But once their population gets over what the ecosystem can naturally support, they quickly become dangerous. Trapping is cruel and catches more than coyotes. Poisoning kills indiscriminately and very painfully. Dogs are efficient killers. I love my sweet little golden boy who spoons with me every night, but he's a killer. Don't fool yourself.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> Anyone who thinks coyotes aren't a problem hasn't lived in area with a lot of coyotes. They will pick off small dogs, cats and farm animals. They get wise to traps and go around, under and over fencing and other barriers. They will haunt popular dog walking areas in order to attack small dogs- on leash, with the owner right there. There are places where the coyotes have made it dangerous for people to go outside at night.
> 
> Yes, coyotes are beautiful. Yes, they are necessary to the ecosystem. But once their population gets over what the ecosystem can naturally support, they quickly become dangerous. Trapping is cruel and catches more than coyotes. Poisoning kills indiscriminately and very painfully. Dogs are efficient killers. I love my sweet little golden boy who spoons with me every night, but he's a killer. Don't fool yourself.


We are having this problem now, we have three traps set, at first, we would catch 4 or 5 coys a week, now we are lucky to catch one, the bait just sits in there and rots, or maggots get to it. Why? because like JB said, they got wise. I have a pistol and I do walk with it when I take the dog out for his nightly potty break, just in case, but the ones we have here, if they so much as get wind of a human being, they head for the hills, they dont wait around. I have run 20 off by myself with just yelling, and discharging my pistol into the ground (they were running in at direction where a dwelling was in the possible line of fire and I didnt want to take the chance of hurting someone, should I miss).


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Amaryllis said:


> Anyone who thinks coyotes aren't a problem hasn't lived in area with a lot of coyotes. They will pick off small dogs, cats and farm animals. They get wise to traps and go around, under and over fencing and other barriers. They will haunt popular dog walking areas in order to attack small dogs- on leash, with the owner right there. There are places where the coyotes have made it dangerous for people to go outside at night.
> 
> Yes, coyotes are beautiful. Yes, they are necessary to the ecosystem. But once their population gets over what the ecosystem can naturally support, they quickly become dangerous. Trapping is cruel and catches more than coyotes. Poisoning kills indiscriminately and very painfully. Dogs are efficient killers. I love my sweet little golden boy who spoons with me every night, but he's a killer. Don't fool yourself.


It's not just small dogs. I once worked with a woman who was heavily into sledding and had a group of huskies. Her property had 10 foot mesh fencing, both to keep her dogs in and the coyotes out, and she would tell stories of the coyotes sending a single member of the group out to attempt to lure the dogs off the property so that the rest of the pack could kill it. It's not the first time I've heard of them doing this either.


----------



## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The luring, especially of male dogs, was fairly common in Texas in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. 

In Charleston County, South Carolina, coyotes are an invasive species, and the County has a limited bounty on coyotes. They have not been driven from wild areas, they have multiplied in wild areas and are spreading into urban areas.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CiElBie said:


> Yes, I guess people arent that skilled at shooting in actuality. .


You are grossly understanding what goes into making the shot....

It is not punching holes in paper at a range. You are dealing with a highly intelligent animal that is going to use cover environment, and wind, etc to his advantage. You are talking about making a very very long shot after sitting completely still for hours. In less than ideal light, wind and weather conditions...... I know you want to make it seem easy... Just go out and shoot them.... The reality is FAR different. 


CiElBie said:


> At the same time, Im saying there are other ways to kill the yote without having it mauled to death. It seems rather inefficient to go out searching for yotes to kill and then have them mauled to death by dogs.


Well there are traps... Trap the coyote.... It lays there and struggle to get free and in pain. Until you get back and knock it over the head. The coyote might even chew its foot off to get away. 
Then there are snares... They strangle the coyote to death. 

Poison.... Not as quick as the manufacturer makes it out to be... And it is the gift that keeps on giving... The animals that eat the carcass can get poisoned as well.

Of course none of those are directed.. Meaning you cannot specifically target coyotes... You kill, bobcats, wandering pets, birds of prey, etc etc etc. 

You seem hung up on this mauled to death thing.... But we are talking seconds here... Only a head shot with a firearm would be quicker....


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> It's not just small dogs. I once worked with a woman who was heavily into sledding and had a group of huskies. Her property had 10 foot mesh fencing, both to keep her dogs in and the coyotes out, and she would tell stories of the coyotes sending a single member of the group out to attempt to lure the dogs off the property so that the rest of the pack could kill it. It's not the first time I've heard of them doing this either.


They've become so prevalent in San Francisco, a woman was walking her beagle in a park and a pack of coyotes were attacking her dog with her right there and what saved the dog's life was a neighbor coming out with a gun to chase them off.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

If there was a nuclear holocaust.... The survivors would be.... Rats, cockroaches, Keith Richards, Ozzy Osborne, and Coyotes. 

They are the great adapters 

I hold great admiration for them as a species.

But there are coyote problems with them in many parts of the US... Especially the East..

And we have caused this.... Coyotes are mid tier predators.... Kept in check by apex predators... We move in and remove the apex predators... The more adaptable, more cunning, mid tier predators take over... And coyotes have the ability... they are just big enough... To take the role of apex predator... And they seem to shine in and like that role. 

20 something years ago... We had no coyotes in Florida... Now we are crawling with them....


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Very interesting to watch the dogs work. And I get that these guys are a nuisance species and can cause real problems, so I don't really have a problem with the actual hunt. But the utter glee coming from the people watching an animal being ripped apart makes me uneasy...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Effisia said:


> Very interesting to watch the dogs work. And I get that these guys are a nuisance species and can cause real problems, so I don't really have a problem with the actual hunt. But the utter glee coming from the people watching an animal being ripped apart makes me uneasy...


Dog men.... The Glee is in their dogs.... That they put their heart and soul into..... Did well..... No different than someone being happy and excited when their agility dog had a great run....


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I think the coyote might disagree with you on that one


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Effisia said:


> I think the coyote might disagree with you on that one


Maybe.... But if they were my dogs and the did a good take down, I would be whooping and hollering as well.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think watching this is going to be pretty hard for most people to watch, because the coyotes are dog like, and they're 'advanced' and big enough for people who love animals to really empathize with them - particularly people who love dogs. Little bit of similarity, little bit of having romantic notions about predators because we're human, etc. 

Reality is, while a lot of people would still have an emotional response to a barn being cleared of mice or rats by a terrier, it wouldn't be the same intensity of response in MOST people (general public anyway). 

No difference in the action/appropriateness of it, but the emotional 'punch' is stronger when it's a coyote because - dog like predator we romanticize.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Awesome videos! I know I am on the right forum now, cause the 'other' forum I was on would have deleted this post right away because they are all bleeding-hearts. Here's my dumb question; how do those greyhounds run through corn fields like that without injuring themselves? Corn stalks are so sharp and greyhounds have such thin skin? Or maybe this type are a little tougher than the racetrack variety? A lot of the greyhounds I know of can't even lure-course on anything but very flat terrain otherwise they break ankles.

I've watched videos of people hunting with terriers. This is nothing, lol. If this bothers you never ever search for hog or fox hunting! Yikes...

Oh and yes the mice-and-rat lovers of the world get awfully upset over terriers doing their thing. Even the sport of Barn Hunt seems to offend some people because the rat may be scared. sigh...


----------



## Na-Tasha (Aug 13, 2014)

I clicked on the thread because for some reason I thought " lure coursing, cool!" as in the dogs were chasing a fake lure. Derp. Well, I simply chose not to watch the videos once my brain clicked into the correct slot and I realized they were chasing and killing live coyotes. I just don't like watching living animals being mauled by dogs, no matter what type of animal or the reasoning for it is (strangely enough I am fascinated by predator hunting, when wild animals hunt and kill for food, maybe the difference is that humans are not in charge? Or the hunted animal is going to be eaten/not just killed for pest control? I dunno. I guess I'm just weird that way). However, I don't live in rainbow land and I do realize pest control is needed, and sometimes using dogs are the best way. What I would be crying foul over would be if the hunters/farmers/whoever allowed their dogs to chase and maul the animal and then called the dogs off and left the animal to suffer as it slowly died on its own. But ethical people don't do that, they allow the dogs to kill the animal or dispatch it themselves if the dogs didn't kill it.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I notice nobody says that it's so great to see coyotes doing what they were born to do when they rip up sheep . 

Yeah, I don't like the whooping and hollering mentality of so many hunters. Bleh.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Terriermon said:


> Awesome videos! I know I am on the right forum now, cause the 'other' forum I was on would have deleted this post right away because they are all bleeding-hearts. Here's my dumb question; how do those greyhounds run through corn fields like that without injuring themselves? Corn stalks are so sharp and greyhounds have such thin skin? Or maybe this type are a little tougher than the racetrack variety? A lot of the greyhounds I know of can't even lure-course on anything but very flat terrain otherwise they break ankles.
> 
> I've watched videos of people hunting with terriers. This is nothing, lol. If this bothers you never ever search for hog or fox hunting! Yikes...
> 
> Oh and yes the mice-and-rat lovers of the world get awfully upset over terriers doing their thing. Even the sport of Barn Hunt seems to offend some people because the rat may be scared. sigh...


Well, I am a rat and mouse lover. Had pet rats years ago, have pet mice now. They're really neat, cute, awesome, intelligent animals. I also own snakes who eat rats and mice and a terrier who clears a couple of barns in my extended family, so. No, not everyone is quite that far over the rainbow. 

And, yeah, I cheer and am pleased and happy when Jack kills something. Why wouldn't I be? He did a good job. No, I'm not cheering because 'yay death and gore' or I'm sadistic, but my DOG DID WELL. 

I will also admit to all those weird human biases that a lot of people deny. As in, I cried when he killed a chipmunk. Because it was cuter than his average kill and because, frankly, they're not really a pest species.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Maybe.... But if they were my dogs and the did a good take down, I would be whooping and hollering as well.


So intellectually I get what you're saying. I even follow the coursing/agility analogy. I understand WHY there's the whooping and hollering. And I'm okay with what the dogs are actually doing. Still makes me super uneasy when folks get so excited about something alive being ripped to pieces. Just my gut-level reaction. 

Granted, I am definitely what one would call a bleeding heart, I guess. My husband likes to remind me all the time about the time I cried over a sandwich that I made and then didn't want because I thought it would feel rejected (I was on pain meds at the time, but still...) I've always wanted to hunt - I love venison and I'm actually really good with a bow - but I'm always afraid I will just lose it completely if I actually ever shot anything.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> I'm always afraid I will just lose it completely if I actually ever shot anything.


I can't hunt anymore. I'm okay with the dog doing his things in barns to help out family or whatever, but I can't hunt anymore. I have the deer around my yard all year. They aggravate the crap out of me and I know danged well that hunting is ecologically not only not bad but necessary as a result of the loss of apex predators, but I feel like I know the danged things. I had to go run at a couple of deer hanging out on my agility field yesterday to get them to leave so I could use it. I've found them on the a-frame. I just - can't. do. it. 

So it's not like I don't get the emotional reaction, too.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And we have caused this.... Coyotes are mid tier predators.... Kept in check by apex predators... We move in and remove the apex predators... The more adaptable, more cunning, mid tier predators take over... And coyotes have the ability... they are just big enough... To take the role of apex predator... And they seem to shine in and like that role.


Yep. I believe I've also heard that there has been evidence to show that they have started having larger litters in places where they are hunted more.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

ireth0 said:


> Yep. I believe I've also heard that there has been evidence to show that they have started having larger litters in places where they are hunted more.


They're really good at hiding too, when heavily hunted. I've lived here 21 years and have seen exactly 1 live wild coyote. And he was running really fast . I hear them at night but dang if I know where they hang out. Probably near the river, but that's 5 miles away and they sound closer. . .but sound carries so who knows.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I notice nobody says that it's so great to see coyotes doing what they were born to do when they rip up sheep .
> 
> Yeah, I don't like the whooping and hollering mentality of so many hunters. Bleh.


Maybe because ripping up sheep is costing someone money? money they use to feed their families?

I have a JRT, I have hunted with him, not "tamed" hunting like earth dog trials, but REAL actual hunting where you go out with a group of people and a judge and actually track, hunt and dispatch real wild quarry. I have even coursed rabbits with him, And you can bet your bones that when my dog pulled that varmint out of his hole, that I was "whooping and hollering" just like those hunters on that video.

Coyotes are not just a nuisance, they are dangerous not only to pets and livestock, but people too. they USED to have competing predators that kept them in check, but we took that away, so WE must be that predator. Did you know that wolves will kill coyotes on sight, too? They will gang up on them and rip them to shreds, wolves have the same hatred for coyotes that humans do for many of the same reasons, and they will sometimes even "celebrate" by having a group howling session after they dispatch a coyote. So why, when humans do the same thing, it suddenly is "wrong"? Predators have been killing other predators since there WERE predators, humans are predators, so are coyotes, so the way I see it, it is just one predator killing another.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Since the warmer weather has come, I have been live trapping squirrels before they set up housekeeping in my attic. I then take them to town to the park which is a couple of miles away and hope they do not come back. I probably should be killing them but even if I discovered they were coming back (don't know how unless I could figure out a way of marking them) I would just take them farther away. If one of my dogs killed a squirrel I would tell them what a good dog they were and although they have never caught a squirrel, Susie has caught a couple of big marmots and was so proud of herself.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> Since the warmer weather has come, I have been live trapping squirrels before they set up housekeeping in my attic. I then take them to town to the park which is a couple of miles away and hope they do not come back. I probably should be killing them but even if I discovered they were coming back (don't know how unless I could figure out a way of marking them) I would just take them farther away. If one of my dogs killed a squirrel I would tell them what a good dog they were and although they have never caught a squirrel, Susie has caught a couple of big marmots and was so proud of herself.


Oh I was never prouder of my dog when he would catch and kill squirrels, he was very good at it, and that's something because squirrels arent the easiest animals to catch!


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Maybe because ripping up sheep is costing someone money? money they use to feed their families?


OK, let's say deer then. If someone posted a video of coyotes ripping up deer, a lot of people would be like "eew, ugh, coyotes are evil, kill them all", but if someone posts a video of dogs ripping up coyotes, some people are like "how beautiful to see a dog doing what it was born to do". I fully understand the human tendency to vilify some animals and romanticize others, I just like pointing out hypocrisy when I see it .


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Actually, no, people wouldn't be saying the coyote were evil. I mean how often do you see people railing against nature documentaries with predators killing prey? Seriously? Doesn't happen outside some reallllly rare and extreme circumstances. They even air that kind of stuff on prime time tv! Whole CHANNELS just FILLED with things like coyotes eating deer, and lions eating gazelles and alligators eating whatever, and so on and so forth. 

And yeah, sometimes it's actual coyotes eating actual deer and no, no one cares.

ETA: Let me clarify. People care. Some people even get sad and don't want to watch. No one, however, gets outraged and angry at the predator. The problem with coyotes is that they're killing people's livestock and PETS. THAT is the the outrage. Not that they are predators.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> OK, let's say deer then. If someone posted a video of coyotes ripping up deer, a lot of people would be like "eew, ugh, coyotes are evil, kill them all", but if someone posts a video of dogs ripping up coyotes, some people are like "how beautiful to see a dog doing what it was born to do". I fully understand the human tendency to vilify some animals and romanticize others, I just like pointing out hypocrisy when I see it .


I dont think anyone would say "all coyotes must die!!!" In fact I would rather see coyotes killing and eating deer because that is what they are supposed to hunt and kill, not sheep, cattle, etc ... and others who have said it are right, predators kill prey all the time, predators kill other predators all the time, even kill INFANTS. Lions will kill, leopards, cheetahs, and hyenas if they can, they dont even eat them, they just leave them to rot, filmmakers even followed one pride that would actively go on patrols and hunt down and kill any hyenas they could find.

In short, predators kill each other in defense of territory all the time ... but if humans (who are predators btw) do the same thing, they get demonized for it.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Maybe it's local but I frequently hear people justifying killing coyotes because of their predation on deer and pheasants. "They kill so many deer/birds!" Um, yeah, so do hunters. "They just tear them to shreds!" Um, yeah, so do those dogs used by hunters. So I guess I do see a lot of vilification of certain animals for doing what they were born to do, even without getting into money. Although I suppose it still comes down to money because of out-of-state hunting licenses. Gotta get rid of native predators to keep those non-native pheasants safe, dontcha know.

I just see a big difference between a necessary evil and "yeehaw!"


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Maybe it's local but I frequently hear people justifying killing coyotes because of their predation on deer and pheasants. "They kill so many deer/birds!" Um, yeah, so do hunters. "They just tear them to shreds!" Um, yeah, so do those dogs used by hunters. So I guess I do see a lot of vilification of certain animals for doing what they were born to do, even without getting into money. Although I suppose it still comes down to money because of out-of-state hunting licenses. Gotta get rid of native predators to keep those non-native pheasants safe, dontcha know.
> 
> I just see a big difference between a necessary evil and "yeehaw!"


Well than I guess I am one of the evil ones, because I "yahaw'd" right along with the hunters in the video, not because they were killing an animal, but because the dogs did a GOOD job, they were proud of their dogs and wanted them to know it. When I used to course rabbits, I whooped and hollered and praised my dog when he would catch and dispatch one. 

And yeah, there is none of that here, as long as they stay away from livestock and pets, no one cares here. 

Dogs are also used to course feral hogs, which ARE an invasive species and DO pose a threat to native wildlife.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Kyllobernese said:


> Since the warmer weather has come, I have been live trapping squirrels before they set up housekeeping in my attic. I then take them to town to the park which is a couple of miles away and hope they do not come back. I probably should be killing them but even if I discovered they were coming back (don't know how unless I could figure out a way of marking them) I would just take them farther away. If one of my dogs killed a squirrel I would tell them what a good dog they were and although they have never caught a squirrel, Susie has caught a couple of big marmots and was so proud of herself.


I read a book once (a biography of a couple that wound up running a wildlife sanctuary) where the author live trapped mice and marked them with a dab of nail polish on their head to see if they were returning when he couldn't seem to put a dent in the mice population in his new house. Turns out they were actually beating him back to the house when he released them, LOL.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> And yeah, there is none of that here, as long as they stay away from livestock and pets, no one cares here.


Yeah, I really sincerely doubt that. I could go onto any hunting forum and find a large number of Texans vilifying coyotes and going out of their way to kill them even when they pose no threat to humans or domestic animals. Maybe you don't know any personally but I really don't think you can speak for everyone in your area.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Willowy said:


> OK, let's say deer then. If someone posted a video of coyotes ripping up deer, a lot of people would be like "eew, ugh, coyotes are evil, kill them all", but if someone posts a video of dogs ripping up coyotes, some people are like "how beautiful to see a dog doing what it was born to do". I fully understand the human tendency to vilify some animals and romanticize others, I just like pointing out hypocrisy when I see it .


LOL, I don't know anyone that would say that about a predator hunting it's natural prey.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kuma'sMom said:


> LOL, I don't know anyone that would say that about a predator hunting it's natural prey.


I hear it all the time. I must talk to the wrong people .


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Willowy said:


> I hear it all the time. I must talk to the wrong people .


You clearly do, because as frequently seems to happen, you are the only one having that experience.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, I really sincerely doubt that. I could go onto any hunting forum and find a large number of Texans vilifying coyotes and going out of their way to kill them even when they pose no threat to humans or domestic animals. Maybe you don't know any personally but I really don't think you can speak for everyone in your area.


Just like you cant speak for everyone in your area, either 

a lot of ranchers have HUGE properties here, some span thousands of acres, and if there are coys ANYWHERE on their property, they will dispatch them, even if they arent an "immediate threat" maybe that is what you mean? I am not sure. 

Also I recall an episode of Alaska the last frontier, when one of the homesteaders saw a grizzly milling "too close" to his herd of cattle and he took it out, as a rancher, you can't wait for a predator to become an "immediate threat" because once it does, money is lost.

For example, the owner of this place I live on declared martial law on coys, because there are horses here worth half a million dollars, yearlings babies, etc and he just cant take the risk.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't even know why I bother defending this, it seems pretty obvious. How about try a predator hunting forum and see what they say about coyotes? I guarantee they aren't saying how great they are when they eat deer .


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, I really sincerely doubt that. I could go onto any hunting forum and find a large number of Texans vilifying coyotes and going out of their way to kill them even when they pose no threat to humans or domestic animals. Maybe you don't know any personally but I really don't think you can speak for everyone in your area.



You are wrong here.... You make wide sweeping statements off of what some yahoo on the internet says..


Farmer and rancher rule number 1 when it comes to coyotes:
IF the coyotes on your place are not targeting your stock.... You LEAVE them ALONE.....
Not all coyotes will target livestock. Some do, some do not. And if yours do not they are your BEST defense against predators. 

For two reasons.
1) They are territorial. They are going to own, hold and defend their territory from other coyotes. 

2) They are going to teach their offspring their habits and hunting methods. So when their offspring take over, you will likely have the same types of behaviors. 


If you shoot up, hunt, trap, etc your coyotes just because.... New coyotes WILL move in. And the new coyotes will not likely share the old coyotes willingness to co exist......

And even if you just shoot a couple you can create issues. Especially if you shoot the mature dominant animals. You create chaos and instability.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Willowy said:


> I don't even know why I bother defending this, it seems pretty obvious. How about try a predator hunting forum and see what they say about coyotes? I guarantee they aren't saying how great they are when they eat deer .


Well, seems it would be pretty easy for you to back up your claims then. I'll look forward to seeing your screenshots from one of these forums proving your point.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I don't even know why I bother defending this, it seems pretty obvious. How about try a predator hunting forum and see what they say about coyotes? I guarantee they aren't saying how great they are when they eat deer .


There is an entire sub culture of hunters that prefer to hunt predators. I understand why they love it. On a difficulty scale, predators are the holy grail of hunting. Predators are MUCH more intelligent, more cunning, more elusive than things like deer, and much more so than small game. 

It takes great skill to be a successful predator hunter. 

Predator hunters are not hunting out of hate. They do it for the challenge.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> You make wide sweeping statements off of what some yahoo on the internet says..


No, I make wide sweeping statements off of what a lot of yahoos in real life say . Farm boys brag a lot.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> No, I make wide sweeping statements off of what a lot of yahoos in real life say . Farm boys brag a lot.


And you hang out with farm boys a lot? Carry on conversations with them? 

You do not seem the type that would be socializing with hunters and farmers a great deal.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> No, I make wide sweeping statements off of what a lot of yahoos in real life say . Farm boys brag a lot.


Additionally...... First you said it was from hunting forums.... Now you say it is in real life, face to face..... Which is it? 

Talking in circles.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Willowy said:


> No, I make wide sweeping statements off of what a lot of yahoos in real life say . Farm boys brag a lot.


I'm still waiting for this proof you say is guaranteed to exist on hunting forums that all hunters hate coyotes and have the same issue with them hunting deer as they do with them hunting livestock. I mean, it's guaranteed to be there, you said so yourself, so why don't you prove us all wrong?


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And in any case..... "farm boys" and Hunters posting on a predators hunting forum are very likely to have very different views and opinions on coyotes...... They are two different demographics that have had different experiences with coyotes. 
The farmers suffer loses to their income...... Coyotes are sport and a hobby to predator hunters...

Again.... Broad brushes make everything blurry.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And you hang out with farm boys a lot? Carry on conversations with them?
> 
> You do not seem the type that would be socializing with hunters and farmers a great deal.


I work at the post office in a small town. It's THE place to go to talk and swap stories. Or the gas station or the diner. . .small towns man. I hear a lot even when it's not my conversation.

I don't know a farmer who doesn't hate coyotes, or one that doesn't go hunting them whenever possible. 

Deer predation is an actual factor in a state deciding whether how to handle coyote populations. I'm not sure why that's a controversial statement.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> Well, seems it would be pretty easy for you to back up your claims then. I'll look forward to seeing your screenshots from one of these forums proving your point.


Me too, I have to say, though I will not hold my breath.

I will say that if the coyotes here would leave everything alone, then we would leave them alone, but we have lost three barn cats and several goats, and calves to them, they also come right up by the houses and threaten people and animals. They also run inside the barn at night and spoke all the horses, and remember these horses are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.



Willowy said:


> I work at the post office in a small town. It's THE place to go to talk and swap stories. Or the gas station or the diner. . .small towns man. I hear a lot even when it's not my conversation.
> 
> I don't know a farmer who doesn't hate coyotes, or one that doesn't go hunting them whenever possible.
> 
> Deer predation is an actual factor in a state deciding whether how to handle coyote populations. I'm not sure why that's a controversial statement.


Again just because that is what "everyone" (and I put that into quotes because I dont really think everyone in your area thinks this way) in your area does this doesnt mean EVERYONE EVERYWHERE does. 

Farmers / ranchers have a hatred for ALL coyotes likely because they have lost livestock to them and would rather not take chances, I can understand that.

Predator hunters brag about killing coys because that is their hobby, same as a deer hunter or anything else. But I believe (and someone can correct me if I am wrong) that predator hunting is controlled by the fish and game ORG of that particular state and there are regulations for hunting them just like there are for anything else that is native.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I've been told by others on this forum (involved in this conversation even) that Google is not broken and if I couldn't find it myself that's my problem. But if people haven't lost interest by later I'll find some stuff when I'm on wifi.

There are no regulations for coyote hunting in this statement, except no spotlighting. They're considered varmints so you can do whatever you want to them.

Going from "nobody hates coyotes and nobody gets mad about deer predation" to "well of course they hate coyotes, nothing wrong with that" is a fairly big leap. Why not just say that to begin with?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I've been told by others on this forum (involved in this conversation even) that Google is not broken and if I couldn't find it myself that's my problem. But if people haven't lost interest by later I'll find some stuff when I'm on wifi.


I am not sure what this even means.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I decided to make it easy for you to prove your claim. Here's a nice big hunting forum with an active predator hunting subforum, the majority of the posts are about coyotes too. Please prove us all wrong and show us where the hunters are saying they hate all coyotes whether they hunt livestock or deer. I'll warn you though, I browsed through the first 12 pages, saw lots of posts about how difficult it is to hunt coyotes, what a thrill it is to actually get one, tips on the best ways to hunt them, one post with a video of a coyote taking down a deer, but no comments on it, but the OP certainly wasn't ranting about the awful coyote hunting a deer. Also a few posts discussing the debate about whether coyotes actually having a negative impact on deer populations and, gasp, the vast majority of hunters concluding that the biggest threat to deer populations is loss of habitat and NOT coyotes! But, I'm sure I just missed the posts about how much hunters hate all coyotes everywhere, and I'm sure you'll be able to find them easily. I mean, you guaranteed they'd be there after all.

http://www.biggamehunt.net/forums/predator-small-game-forums/predators

Another big forum, haven't had time to go through this one, gotta get back to work, but I'm sure there'll be plenty of coyote hate posts here, surely!
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=1&page=1


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I dont know about hunting forums, but I have watched several documentaries on the outdoor channel (not that makes me any mind of an expert or anything) that followed coy hunters and it did mention they did go several weeks even MONTHS without even seeing coys, they did mention how they couldnt use predator calls anymore because they quickly got wise to them, etc ...

So yeah, I can understand "bragging" if you manage to get a coy, especially if they are *that* hard to hunt. Seems like to me like some mad skills are required to be a predator hunter.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Deer predation is an actual factor in a state deciding whether how to handle coyote populations. I'm not sure why that's a controversial statement.


Well, it could be because that wasn't what you said. You said that hunters disliked coyotes killing wildlife because then there was less for them to hunt, not that deer predation is a factor in a state determining hunting laws.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

ireth0 said:


> Well, it could be because that wasn't what you said. You said that hunters disliked coyotes killing wildlife because then there was less for them to hunt, not that deer predation is a factor in a state determining hunting laws.


Agreed, and going by the threads I read on that hunting forum, most hunters think that states blaming declining deer populations on coyotes is pure idiocy, and that loss of habitat and declining quality of remaining habitat is the biggest reason for declining deer populations.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Well, it could be because that wasn't what you said. You said that hunters disliked coyotes killing wildlife because then there was less for them to hunt, not that deer predation is a factor in a state determining hunting laws.


I imagine deer predation IS a factor in determining how many deer a person can take per season, and how many coyotes a person can take ... etc and I imagine that varies by state.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I imagine deer predation IS a factor in determining how many deer a person can take per season, and how many coyotes a person can take ... etc and I imagine that varies by state.


Of course it is. 

But that wasn't the statement Willowy made that people took issue with.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Here are a few websites and choice quotes:

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/killing-coyotes-101-daytime-and-night-hunting-problem-coyotes/
"There are few more despicable creatures than the coyote, so you should never be afraid to hunt them in what we would normally think of as an “unsporting manner""

"The only answer is to kill every one of them"

Too many things to quote in this one!
http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=146135&start=0 

A good example of someone vilifying coyotes for doing what the dogs in the video did:
http://www.woods-n-waternews.com/Ar...te-Have-An-Impact-On-Michigans-Deer-Herd.html
This guy is no fan:
http://www.realtree.com/brow-tines-and-backstrap/8-reasons-deer-hunters-should-hunt-coyotes 

Anyway, I stand by my statement that if you posted a video of a coyote tearing up a deer, you'd get a bunch of anti-coyote comments and very few/no comments that it's wonderful to see a coyote do what it's born to do.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Here are a few websites and choice quotes:
> 
> https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/killing-coyotes-101-daytime-and-night-hunting-problem-coyotes/
> "There are few more despicable creatures than the coyote, so you should never be afraid to hunt them in what we would normally think of as an “unsporting manner""
> ...


I read through this whole page and not sure what you take offense to or what kind of evidence this is, this is about taking care of problem coys that are killing livestock, that is not even the same thing as what those sighthounds were doing. 



> A good example of someone vilifying coyotes for doing what the dogs in the video did:
> http://www.woods-n-waternews.com/Ar...te-Have-An-Impact-On-Michigans-Deer-Herd.html
> This guy is no fan:
> http://www.realtree.com/brow-tines-and-backstrap/8-reasons-deer-hunters-should-hunt-coyotes (adding more, hold on)


I dont know about this one, since the site wouldnt load for me.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Here are a few websites and choice quotes:
> 
> https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/killing-coyotes-101-daytime-and-night-hunting-problem-coyotes/
> "There are few more despicable creatures than the coyote, so you should never be afraid to hunt them in what we would normally think of as an “unsporting manner""
> ...


Well, first of all, you originally stated that if you go on any hunting FORUM, you'll see post after post villifying coyotes for hunting deer. Only one of those links is an actual forum, so not the broad sampling you're claiming, as those articles are merely the opinions of a single person. That said, not one of those articles is saying what you claim they are, lol. Your original claim was that people would hate on coyotes for killing a deer purely because it was killing a deer. None of these articles or the forum thread are saying that. They're saying that the coyote population has exploded, is hurting the local deer population, and needs to be controlled. Not one is calling for the eradication of the "evil deer killing coyotes", just to control them. Sure those articles used some extreme imagery, but that's what articles do, lol. They want people to read them, so they use an opening paragraph that will grab people's attention.

You haven't mentioned the forums I provided you, guess you couldn't find anything to support your claims in those either?


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I went to youtube and found videos with + 10,000 views. 

There are several. I'm not linking, but you can do that search as well as anyone. 

Yes, there are a few people who are saying 'Kill all the coyotes'. However, I did in fact find a lot of: 


> Y
> Nature at has been for millions of years.﻿


And so on and so forth and yeah, aw about the coyote doing its thing. 

Try again, Willowy. What you imagine goes on in everyone's head and all the ways they're crass and cruel is, again, mostly only happening in YOUR head. The vast majority of people - even ones commenting on youtube videos where, LBR, people are jerkier than usual are somewhere between feeling bad for the deer and able to recognize nature is what it is and over with 'well, nature's beautiful' and are deal with reality without being cruel, gleeful, sadistic, jerks.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

CptJack said:


> I went to youtube and found videos with + 10,000 views.
> 
> There are several. I'm not linking, but you can do that search as well as anyone.
> 
> ...


I'll post one, lol.
This one, sure a couple of people commented about killing the coyotes, but even then, most aren't saying "evil coyote killing deer", they just want the population controlled. The vast majority of the comments are about how amazing the video is, how awesome it is to see nature at work, and so on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wnQXP3M2Q8


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I'll post one, lol.
> This one, sure a couple of people commented about killing the coyotes, but even then, most aren't saying "evil coyote killing deer", they just want the population controlled. The vast majority of the comments are about how amazing the video is, how awesome it is to see nature at work, and so on.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wnQXP3M2Q8


Thanks. I have copy/paste issues right now. Urls aren't happening, because I can't remember the stinking things!

I also did find some hunters saying 'and animal rights nuts get mad at us - a clean shot is way faster than this'. Which is fair, I think.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Also I recall an episode of Alaska the last frontier, when one of the homesteaders saw a grizzly milling "too close" to his herd of cattle and he took it out, as a rancher, you can't wait for a predator to become an "immediate threat" because once it does, money is lost.


That show is fake fake fake fake fake fake, btw. It's not the fakest of the Alaska "reality" shows but it's right up there.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

parus said:


> That show is fake fake fake fake fake fake, btw. It's not the fakest of the Alaska "reality" shows but it's right up there.


Oh of course it is, I dont believe anything on TV to be gospel truth, and I was not trying to pass it off as truth, I was just using the scenario as an example of why ranchers can't and don't take chances with predators.


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm in camp "pretty cool to see nature at work". In my breed group, hog catching is big. It is what these dogs were bred for. I see videos all the time on my breed-specific pages of these bulldogs taking down hogs, working the farm, etc. Are the images bloody and disturbing? Sure... but... it's what they were meant to do. Doesn't mean I'm going to take my bulldog out and go catch me a hog! But I can appreciate a working dog doing a job it was bred to do.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> I'm in camp "pretty cool to see nature at work". In my breed group, hog catching is big. It is what these dogs were bred for. I see videos all the time on my breed-specific pages of these bulldogs taking down hogs, working the farm, etc. Are the images bloody and disturbing? Sure... but... it's what they were meant to do. Doesn't mean I'm going to take my bulldog out and go catch me a hog! But I can appreciate a working dog doing a job it was bred to do.


YES! (too short)


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, I really sincerely doubt that. I could go onto any hunting forum and find a large number of Texans vilifying coyotes and going out of their way to kill them even when they pose no threat to humans or domestic animals. Maybe you don't know any personally but I really don't think you can speak for everyone in your area.


trying to catch up on this thread.... that is one thing I can say good about the ranchers here, until there is an active threat (predator that has killed a few times) they are not looking for the natural predators across their 1000's of ac ranches... When they do have an active predator they have a professional tracker (who use dogs) to track* THAT* animal down.... Ranchers close to me manage well to bring in their cows to more contained and back up towards the homestead areas when it's time to calf. They not running around killing anything they see over their lands... that is the difference to me of management


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> trying to catch up on this thread.... that is one thing I can say good about the ranchers here, until there is an active threat (predator that has killed a few times) they are not looking for the natural predators across their 1000's of ac ranches... When they do have an active predator they have a professional tracker (who use dogs) to track* THAT* animal down.... Ranchers close to me manage well to bring in their cows to more contained and back up towards the homestead areas when it's time to calf. They not running around killing anything they see over their lands... that is the difference to me of management


Yeah I rather took offense when she basically said she knows more about how people in MY state act, think and do more than I do even though I live here based on what a handful of people are saying _on the internet_ no less (which is famous for exaggeration and outlandish posts anyway). My advice to her; take what people say on the internet with a grain of salt.


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I think you mean a grade of slaw.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> I think you mean a grade of slaw.


LOL, I dont much care for slaw, though. I always grew up with the phrase "grain of salt"


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Oh of course it is, I dont believe anything on TV to be gospel truth, and I was not trying to pass it off as truth, I was just using the scenario as an example of why ranchers can't and don't take chances with predators.


I haven't seen the episode, but it might not be a very good example. While it's legal here (Alaska) to kill wildlife in defense of life or property IF the wild animal is an active threat, our fish & game cops are edgy about it compared to most other parts of the US, and people are legally obliged to take all reasonable precautions to separate attractive nuisances (garbage, food, animal fodder, domestic animals, etc.) from wildlife. For better or worse Alaska does not prioritize agriculture and farmers.

If you shoot a bear in defense of life or property you have to surrender the skin and skull ASAP to the fish & game troopers and make an incident report. If you don't do this, or they don't buy the story, you can get some pretty heavy consequences up to and including jail time. So people here aren't cavalier about it.

Like I said, haven't seen the show, but if I had to bet money on it I'd bet that the people already had a brown bear tag (i.e. they were legally allowed to hunt a bear that season), and the shooting was staged for the show.


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Interesting... so what do they do with the skull and skin once it's surrendered? That seems unfair. If I kill a bear, I want that bear rug!


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> Interesting... so what do they do with the skull and skin once it's surrendered? That seems unfair. If I kill a bear, I want that bear rug!


Yeah, I was thinking that, too.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

TGKvr said:


> Interesting... so what do they do with the skull and skin once it's surrendered? That seems unfair. If I kill a bear, I want that bear rug!


I'm not sure what happens to all of them. I know some hides and skulls go to educational programs and schools. I assume a lot of them are mangled beyond usefulness - the average person doesn't really know how to skin a bear. That's point, it's supposed to be a deterrent...like, I hope you REALLY had to kill that bear, because you're going to be butt-deep in bear carcass for the next eight hours, lol, and you don't even get anything fun to show for it.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> I haven't seen the episode, but it might not be a very good example. While it's legal here (Alaska) to kill wildlife in defense of life or property IF the wild animal is an active threat, our fish & game cops are edgy about it compared to most other parts of the US, and people are legally obliged to take all reasonable precautions to separate attractive nuisances (garbage, food, animal fodder, domestic animals, etc.) from wildlife. For better or worse Alaska does not prioritize agriculture and farmers.
> 
> If you shoot a bear in defense of life or property you have to surrender the skin and skull ASAP to the fish & game troopers and make an incident report. If you don't do this, or they don't buy the story, you can get some pretty heavy consequences up to and including jail time. So people here aren't cavalier about it.
> 
> Like I said, haven't seen the show, but if I had to bet money on it I'd bet that the people already had a brown bear tag (i.e. they were legally allowed to hunt a bear that season), and the shooting was staged for the show.


The one I saw where they killed the grizzly, they had already had a cow killed by a bear and they had an injured half grown calf and the grizzly was actively pursuing the herd. 
They skinned the grizzly and said they were going to eat it. 

Another time they had a wolf chasing the herd. They shot it and were going to skin it and sell the hide.


Probably all staged but that is how they played it.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The one I saw where they killed the grizzly, they had already had a cow killed by a bear and they had an injured half grown calf and the grizzly was actively pursuing the herd.
> They skinned the grizzly and said they were going to eat it.
> 
> Another time they had a wolf chasing the herd. They shot it and were going to skin it and sell the hide.
> ...


Yeah, you can't sell the hide of a wolf killed in defense of life or property, you have to surrender it. So they either broke the law, faked it for the show, and/or were hunting wolves in season with the proper permits in a legally allowable area. 

Also, I'm not 100% on the obligations of people keeping livestock in general, because I'm not one so I haven't had occasion to research in depth, but I know in my area our farmers are required to have some crazy fences...they can get dinged pretty hard for de facto baiting otherwise. It's come up quite a few times around here as a point of contention between the community and Fish & Game. We don't keep cattle around here, though, too fragile for Alaska and not a big enough profit margin. People will keep a cow or two in a barn but if they're going to have a herd of animals in my area it's usually bison, muskox, reindeer, etc.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Here are a few websites and choice quotes:
> 
> https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/killing-coyotes-101-daytime-and-night-hunting-problem-coyotes/
> "There are few more despicable creatures than the coyote, so you should never be afraid to hunt them in what we would normally think of as an “unsporting manner""
> ...



These do not prove your point.... Although your point seems to change with every post.... You tend spin and twist and turn in vain attempts to be right..... But this is a record....

Your blind hatred for all things hunting, farming and ranching really shines on this thread.....

In case you do not realize... And I am confident you do not..The great bulk of funds spent in this country that are spent on conservation efforts are paid for directly via taxes paid specifically by sportsmen. Wildlife programs, restoration projects, land purchases, studies on improving habitat, etc..... All paid for by sportsmen via the Pittman-Robertson Act. Which levies an 11 percent excise tax on firearms, ammunition, archery equipment and additional hunting supplies. 

Additional funds for conservation are collect in the form of state licenses, taxes, fees etc. There are also Federal Duck Stamps. EVERYONE that hunts ducks in the United States must purchase a Federal Stamp. The money is used for waterfowl conservation and management. 

When it comes to farmers and ranchers, they too participate in wildlife conservation. A great many farming and ranching land holders go out of their way to leave suitable habitat on their land... They also leave parts of their land in a natural and or overgrown state allowing for wildlife travel corridors. They plant cover crops that benefit wildlife. etc etc etc. 

In many cases ranchers have and do work with wildlife regulatory bodies to ensure the health of threatened species populations....

The Florida Panther is a GREAT example.... A LARGE percentage of the viable panther habitat in Florida lies on privately held cattle ranches. As the panther population has rebounded and the numbers have vastly increased, the ranchers have welcomed the panthers with open arms. They have granted access for study to assorted organizations.... 

The very people you so openly hold in contempt are the stewards of our wildlife.....


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

People love to whoop and holler and 'yeehaw' watching other people beat the living daylight out of each other, and well a whole host of violent terrible things. We are a predatory and violent species, and the "thrill of the hunt" is something ingrained into our DNA whether you like it or not. why are you so 'disturbed' by a group of hunters cheering when their dogs catch it's prey? Do you think they should light a candle and say a prayer for the coyote and be very solemn? You seem to have a deep resentment towards 'country folk' type, why is that? Some of your comments boarder on bigotry, Willowy.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I have found that many behaviors excused by "country folks" are animal cruelty. And I'm allowed to hate animal cruelty if I want. I don't think the majority are bad people but they do some bad things. Some very bad things :/.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Willowy said:


> I have found that many behaviors excused by "country folks" are animal cruelty. And I'm allowed to hate animal cruelty if I want. I don't think the majority are bad people but they do some bad things. Some very bad things :/.


 Oh, please do show where there has been any cruelty excused on this thread, PLEASE.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I didn't say anything about this thread. Terriermon asked why I'm not especially fond of the "country folk" mindset. That's why.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I have found that many behaviors excused by "country folks" are animal cruelty. And I'm allowed to hate animal cruelty if I want. I don't think the majority are bad people but they do some bad things. Some very bad things :/.



Only thing is.... You hear something... and are ready to condemn everyone, everywhere....


Broad brush....


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> These do not prove your point.... Although your point seems to change with every post.... You tend spin and twist and turn in vain attempts to be right..... But this is a record....
> 
> Your blind hatred for all things hunting, farming and ranching really shines on this thread.....
> 
> ...


I have friends and family that hunt, and this is true. Shocking though it may be to her. 



> When it comes to farmers and ranchers, they too participate in wildlife conservation. A great many farming and ranching land holders go out of their way to leave suitable habitat on their land... They also leave parts of their land in a natural and or overgrown state allowing for wildlife travel corridors. They plant cover crops that benefit wildlife. etc etc etc.
> 
> In many cases ranchers have and do work with wildlife regulatory bodies to ensure the health of threatened species populations....
> 
> ...


THIS THIS so much this!!!! My family keeps goats and cattle, so I guess that makes me one of the "very people she holds in contempt". Our land of 70 acres, and is a perfect elongated rectangle, is split up into three pastures, I cant remember the exact acreage without looking at the property map, but I do know that the front, and the back are the largest, and we have NOT cleared them BECAUSE of wildlife like deer, hawks, owls, etc ... and we even have a bobcat that lives in the front pasture WITH the cattle. We like him because he keeps the more nuisance predators away. 

We have a lake that is frequented by many many migrating birds every season, and we have flowering plants specially planted (as well as feeders hung) for hummingbirds, and butterflies. 



Willowy said:


> I have found that many behaviors excused by "country folks" are animal cruelty. And I'm allowed to hate animal cruelty if I want. I don't think the majority are bad people but they do some bad things. Some very bad things :/.


Please explain your definition of animal cruelty, because I dont think it means what you think it means.

If you mean hunting, then okay, say we ban hunting, like JB said, who is going to pay for the cost of wildlife conservation if you take away the proceeds from hunting and fishing licenses? Deer (at least in my area) have no natural predators, when we moved in, we took them away, so WE must fill that roll and "thin out" the herds.

Predators like the coyote, were once kept in check by other predators like the cougar, and the mexican wolf. Well, those have (for whatever reason, whether it was from us or not) also disappeared, so WE, the humans must fill that role as "apex predator" for the good of ALL wildlife.

If you are talking about the way someone keeps their dogs, okay, I dont _agree_ with someone who:
kennels their dogs
has an outside dog
feeds a cruddy food
doesnt give HW preventative
tethers their dogs 24/7

Does that mean I have a right to call them "cruel" "abusive" or "bad"? NO! just because you dont agree with the way someone keeps their animals, doesnt mean that makes them cruel.


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Pretty much all the upkeep of WMA type properties is due to the issuing of hunting licenses, access passes, etc. So the public property which so many people use, has trails and roads maintained by the money flowing into the government from primarily hunters. I don't hunt, but I do a lot of hiking and caving on public land. I have to buy a pass to access these areas, or purchase a hunting license. Either/Or. But think of all the climbers, mountain bikers, horseback riders, that use these lands. Most of them don't have to pay - they get to enjoy the use of this land because of those who hunt.

**ETA: Oh and I'm one of those "country people". I'm really a pretty laid-back person and not easily offended, but I find it slightly off-putting to be lumped into a group of people who allegedly condone animal cruelty. The opposite is actually true. I live in, and have almost always lived in, the country in very rural areas. In my experience, compared to the two years I lived in a city environment, these "country people" are incredibly loving and caring of their animals and don't tolerate this alleged cruelty. I'm not by any means implying "city folk" care less about their animals. But in the country, everyone has dogs and cats and horses and cows and goats and so on. Country people ARE animal people, mostly. And it's insulting to imply that people who live in the country are any more likely to condone abuse and cruelty than anyone else.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> Pretty much all the upkeep of WMA type properties is due to the issuing of hunting licenses, access passes, etc. So the public property which so many people use, has trails and roads maintained by the money flowing into the government from primarily hunters. I don't hunt, but I do a lot of hiking and caving on public land. I have to buy a pass to access these areas, or purchase a hunting license. Either/Or. But think of all the climbers, mountain bikers, horseback riders, that use these lands. Most of them don't have to pay - they get to enjoy the use of this land because of those who hunt.


Agreed, I use public lands and also purchase a hunting/trapping license every year, just in case I do have to kill coyotes (yes, you DO need at least a trapper's license in my state to kill them, they just dont let you go all trigger happy on coyotes, either). That way, I can keep the pelts, or have them mounted.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> (yes, you DO need at least a trapper's license in my state to kill them, they just dont let you go all trigger happy on coyotes, either).


 Just curious, what do you think of a state that DOES let people "go all trigger happy on coyotes" (no limits or regulations, with a $5 varmint license)? Keeping on topic with the original post, would hunting coyotes with dogs be legal where you are?

I'm aware of what hunting licenses pay for (and especially waterfowl stamps ). I don't agree with most of the environmental/wildlife policies in this state (and public opinion tends toward the super conservative stand of "I should be allowed to do whatever I want on/with MY PROPERTY even if it hurts someone") but I suppose it's a trade-off, living somewhere nobody else wants to live, lol. 

I don't know if people who live in the country (and, spoiler: I do too ) are more likely to neglect or abuse their animals, but when you call them on it, they are more likely to say "that's how we do things here! We're country folk! It's just a stupid animal!" which is what I mean by that mentality I don't like. 

Examples of things I've heard defended in this manner: drowning or otherwise killing unwanted kittens/puppies, kicking/beating animals, killing any animal they just don't want anymore or who has displeased them in some way, not feeding an animal as punishment, killing any and all wildlife (including protected species, because MY PROPERTY!) for no particular reason, and, well, I could go on but why bother. I'm sure that list will get plenty of argument as it is . And unfortunately, of the incidents I know of for sure (and didn't just hear about), most of them were perpetrated by my relatives :/. Yay family.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes, hunting coys with dogs is legal here, just as it is with hogs. 

There is no closed season on coyotes, HOWEVER you DO need what is called a "nongame" license to hunt, trap, kill, or possess all or part of a living, or dead coyote. 

If you dont believe me, here are my state's regulations (this is the link to the official texas parks and wildlife website) : http://tpwd.texas.gov/regulations/outdoor-annual/hunting/nongame-and-other-species

Look, I am sorry it supposedly sucks so much were you live, that there are so many cruel people, but that is not what everyone is taking issue with here, people take issue with your disdain for ALL hunters, farmers, and ranchers. You seem to believe that they are all backwards degenerates and that is simply NOT the case, not at all.

I will say this again ... *just because it is like that where you live does NOT mean it is like that everywhere!*.

And if it bothers you so much, instead of getting all up in arms about it and stressing yourself out, there is always moving, move to a place where the people actually care about their state and their wildlife.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Just curious, what do you think of a state that DOES let people "go all trigger happy on coyotes" (no limits or regulations, with a $5 varmint license)? Keeping on topic with the original post, would hunting coyotes with dogs be legal where you are?
> 
> .


They are legal to hunt with dogs in a great many states.... Sight Hounds are not used in Florida because the environment is not suited to coursing. Scent hounds are used here. As far as regulations go.... The only regulations are no leg hold traps or snares. But that is state law in general. There is supposedly a caveat that you can use leg hold traps and snares with a special permit from the FWC (state wildlife agency) 

But the reality is you cannot get said special permit. I had a situation which there was a serious issue and the most realistic option was snares. A neighborhood was getting trounced by coyotes. They were jumping privacy fences and taking small pets from back yards. There were a few pets taken from screened porches and a couple of pets snatched right off the leash... It was BAD!!! Myself and my partner got called in. We figured out where the coyotes were coming in and out of the neighborhood. The we coming out from a tidal swamp, through a set of three different culvert pipes that ran under a tall cement wall and led into the neighborhood. It was coyote highway..... And we faced a lot of obstacles. One It was a residential area... No discharge of firearms and really no place to do it. I had never used snares or leg hold traps. But this was a perfect set up. We even devised a way to ensure with reasonable certainty that there would be not be any incidental catch. We would set the snares up high enough that foxes, possums, raccoons, house cats, etc would walk right under the snares. The only thing that would be tall enough that would go through those culvert pipes, would be coyotes.... So we filled out the application, detailed our plan, took photos of the area, set up, etc. It was a nightmare.... We went back and forth for weeks. Several pets got killed in that time. No snare permit.

We finally went another route. We got a variance from the county, with the aid from pressure from the homeowners association that allowed us to discharge firearms on a county easement along the outside of the wall. But we were limited to single shot shot guns no larger than 20 gauge and no larger than number 6 shot. Not ideal... Get them close and right where you want them and number 6 shot will put one down. But not ideal. Heck I use a 12 gauge magnum load with number 4 shot for turkeys. Number 6 is squirrel and rabbit shot. We ended up getting some coyotes out of there. But we had a few we shot that ran off on us... Buzzards found them though. 

Oddly I have had good experience with the state pulling variance permits.... I have gotten night permits for coyotes multiple times. Deer predation permits, etc. 




Willowy said:


> I'm aware of what hunting licenses pay for (and especially waterfowl stamps ).
> 
> .


Waterfowl stamps are a drop in the bucket. The real money comes via pittman-robertson. 




Willowy said:


> I don't know if people who live in the country (and, spoiler: I do too ) are more likely to neglect or abuse their animals, but when you call them on it, they are more likely to say "that's how we do things here! We're country folk! It's just a stupid animal!" which is what I mean by that mentality I don't like.
> 
> Examples of things I've heard defended in this manner: drowning or otherwise killing unwanted kittens/puppies, kicking/beating animals, killing any animal they just don't want anymore or who has displeased them in some way, not feeding an animal as punishment, killing any and all wildlife (including protected species, because MY PROPERTY!) for no particular reason, and, well, I could go on but why bother. I'm sure that list will get plenty of argument as it is . And unfortunately, of the incidents I know of for sure (and didn't just hear about), most of them were perpetrated by my relatives :/. Yay family.


Have you ever stopped to think that maybe you are just surrounded by bad people? I mean if a third of the things you type are true or someone actually said them...... Then South Dakota is populated by the despicable people in the world. If it is a fraction of as bad as you describe... .Why do you stay? 

You make broad statements repeatedly about hunters, ranchers, farmers, etc. and try to paint them as being cruel abusers.....That is FAR from typical.... Maybe you know some people that actually say some of the things you spout..... Maybe you even know some that carry such acts out. And maybe you like to sensationalize...... And maybe your perception is warped....... In any case...... But if there is any facts association with the things you say.... As I said... You are surrounded by bad people.... An unusually high number of them. You might want to think about getting out....


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Wow.... I've lived in the very rural countryside in three different states... and never encountered people like that. Oh, I'm sure they're out there. But I'd say it's an extremely small percentage of rural inhabitants that do any of those things. Sucks your own family is part of the reason you have that mindset though, willowy. That's always the worst.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree, if the state is filled with THAT many bad people, it doesnt seem worth it to me to stay there, but hey! that's just me.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd like for it to be as black-and-white as that. But it's not. Let's take one of my co-workers for example. He seems fairly typical of men in the area. He'd pull you out of a ditch at 3 in the morning, give you a place to stay, feed you, etc. He takes good care of his domestic animals, and even had his dog PTS by a vet instead of just shooting him like a lot of guys would. And. . .he wanted to train his dog to kill raccoons so he trapped a raccoon, broke its legs and back and let his dog at it for several days in a row until the dog finally killed it. Which is just incredibly cruel. But he sees nothing wrong with it because it was "just a stupid raccoon". He's perfectly open about his method of training a ****-killing dog. I can't say he's a bad person altogether. Just did something really bad. No point arguing with him because his belief system will not allow him to believe that what he did is wrong. He legitimately believes that animals only exist for the amusement and use of humans. It's a particular mindset.

To keep it on topic , he would definitely be amused by watching dogs rip up a coyote.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I'd like for it to be as black-and-white as that. But it's not. Let's take one of my co-workers for example. He seems fairly typical of men in the area. He'd pull you out of a ditch at 3 in the morning, give you a place to stay, feed you, etc. He takes good care of his domestic animals, and even had his dog PTS by a vet instead of just shooting him like a lot of guys would. And. . .he wanted to train his dog to kill raccoons so he trapped a raccoon, broke its legs and back and let his dog at it for several days in a row until the dog finally killed it. Which is just incredibly cruel. But he sees nothing wrong with it because it was "just a stupid raccoon". He's perfectly open about his method of training a ****-killing dog. I can't say he's a bad person altogether. Just did something really bad. No point arguing with him because his belief system will not allow him to believe that what he did is wrong. He legitimately believes that animals only exist for the amusement and use of humans. It's a particular mindset.


While I dont agree with that method of training a hunting dog (especially when a scented pelt can just as easily be used), I dont think that necessarily means he "thinks animals only exist for the amusement and use of humans".

But this statement is very contradictory ... which one is it? because you say he "takes good care of his animals and even had his dog PTS instead of shooting it", or does he "only think that animals exist for the amusement and use of humans".


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

He would outright agree with the statement "I believe that animals only exist for the amusement and use of humans". He has made statements to that effect.

He had an emotional attachment to his dog and he didn't want to shoot him, so he had the vet do it. He gets more use from his domestic animals if he treats them well. But he does not think it's wrong to cause an animal to suffer if it amuses and/or is useful to a human. This is how he presents his beliefs and I have no reason to doubt his sincerity.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

My stepfather has always been a good pet owner, and he's shot several of his dogs when they needed euthanized. Personally, I couldn't do it unless it was an emergency, but done correctly I don't think it's a mark of poor animal husbandry to do that instead of going to the vet to do it with drugs. Depending on the animal it may be much less stressful to just dispatch it at home, really.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> He would outright agree with the statement "I believe that animals only exist for the amusement and use of humans". He has made statements to that effect.
> 
> He had an emotional attachment to his dog and he didn't want to shoot him, so he had the vet do it. He gets more use from his domestic animals if he treats them well. But he does not think it's wrong to cause an animal to suffer if it amuses and/or is useful to a human. This is how he presents his beliefs and I have no reason to doubt his sincerity.


So again.... You associate with a group of bad people yet wish to blame it on hunters and ranchers......


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I bet if you met this guy you'd really like him, JB. I don't think you'd consider him a bad guy at all. He's the kind of guy you meet at the shooting range. He's a farmer not a rancher. . .no ranching this side of the river . Or I should say, he's a mailman; his son is the farmer now, but he started it. How did your relatives train their dogs to kill *****? How did the sighthound owners in the OP train their dogs to kill coyotes? Of course I find it all pretty cruel but where do YOU draw the line?

I also don't think the belief that animals only exist for human usage is uncommon. I think it's actually an official belief of some religions. I don't like it at all but I don't know that it automatically makes someone A Bad Person.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I bet if you met this guy you'd really like him, JB. I don't think you'd consider him a bad guy at all. He's the kind of guy you meet at the shooting range. He's a farmer not a rancher. . .no ranching this side of the river . Or I should say, he's a mailman; his son is the farmer now, but he started it. How did your relatives train their dogs to kill *****? How did the sighthound owners in the OP train their dogs to kill coyotes? Of course I find it all pretty cruel but where do YOU draw the line?
> 
> I also don't think the belief that animals only exist for human usage is uncommon. I think it's actually an official belief of some religions. I don't like it at all but I don't know that it automatically makes someone A Bad Person.


Based on what you said..... No I would not like him..... Besides... He is an idiot... You do not and cannot teach a dog to fight.... They are predators... They know the basics and learn the rest as they go... 


Training dogs to kill *****? You don't...... Dogs tree the **** and you shoot it out of the tree..... Scent hounds are not supposed to fight the *****. Just tree them. Fights do happen.... **** falls out of the tree.... **** goes up a tree in which the dogs are capable of following... 

Training the dogs to kill the coyote? I have never done it.... But I confident there is no need to train what the dogs already instinctively do....

I can speak for catch dogs for hogs..... There is no pre training on live hogs... As least we never did.... Some folks may put a pup on a penned up hog... We never did.... We played with pups with the tail of a hog (feral hogs have a long somewhat bushy tail) Later we played with a dried hog hide.... The dogs had the opportunity to see hogs, get excited about them. ec. 
When the dog gets to be 7-8 months old.... We started taking them out with us.... Since the bay dogs, have the hog bayed up before the catch dog goes to work..... You size up the hog you have bayed... If it is a big bad boy, you put your seasoned catch dog on it.... But a 60 pound shoat, small sow, little boar with no tusks, etc....... Junior gets his chance to go to work... A hog like that might bang a young dog around, but cannot cut him up or hurt him bad..... And you kind of want him to get knocked around a little... Not hurt, but you want his will tested... You want him to feel what it is like to get push around by a larger stronger animal. The dog has to work it out on his own, how to use his strengths and brain to get the better of the hog.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So you grill all your friends on their training methods I guess . Do you think the guys who train their dogs on penned hogs are bad people? Really, with the kind of stuff you've defended in the past I'm just trying to understand what your criteria are.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> So you grill all your friends on their training methods I guess . Do you think the guys who train their dogs on penned hogs are bad people? Really, with the kind of stuff you've defended in the past I'm just trying to understand what your criteria are.


MOST of the things you describe frankly have never come up in my life..... And you have NEVER seen me defend anything on the same planet as breaking an animals back legs for the purpose of training..... 

And I certainly do not know anyone that would break an animals back legs..... That is pure trash......Who even thinks there is anything okay with that... 

I don't have any friends that use penned up hogs.... It is a newer method and frankly we considered folks that did it low rent and trashy...... I know some that do it....

Also.... If this tells you anything.... A number of years ago.... Hog Dog Rodeos became a thing here... Drawing crowds... Folks would bring their bay and catch dogs and go up against penned up wild hog dogs in an ring..... I STRONGLY supported the bill that made that illegal... There was no fair chase, no point.....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And here is a video of greyhound puppies their first time out.....

Do they look like they need to be taught how to kill? 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1w_CObOX6Q


----------



## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I'm in camp "dogs kind of evolved BECAUSE they were useful to humans for the purposes of hunting game, providing protection against predators who preyed on humans AND livestock, and also because we liked having them around." It wasn't like we woke up one day centuries ago and thought "man, I could use a fuzzy companion! Lemme go catch a wolf pup!" They just showed up and BECAME useful and that's why we kept them around. And nowadays, dogs DO exist for human enjoyment for the most part, but the dogs in this video and the ones Johnny describe, the ones used on cattle ranches and on boar hunts and coy removal... Those are just doing what they've ALWAYS done. 

Here in my city we have a problem with vermin and very skilled JRT and other terriers are used to get rid of them... Because it's too dangerous for humans to go into condemned buildings and between walls. Dogs have a purpose still and people take advantage of that, it's one of the things I find amazing about dog ownership. And if my dog ever managed to kill one of the many raccoons around here you better believe I'll be hooting and hollering... Because I HATE those things and they're a nuisance. 

We also have a company who uses border collies to herd geese away from busy roads to protect them from being hit by a car. I love that. I love that we still use dogs to help us out in one way or another.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If someone has the worldview that animals ONLY exist for the use of humans, then there is no basis to say that cruelty is wrong. Whatever humans want to do to animal is A-OK, because they're only tools to serve us. The only reason a human would be kind to an animal would be to further their own purposes. 

I mean, I think it's fine to use animals to assist humans, provided they're treated humanely. But I don't think they exist solely for the use of humans.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

How about we get this thread back on topic and enjoy more greyhounds doing what they were meant to do;

hunting hare;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbacbi6lKKY

Saluki hunting gazelle! Amazing!;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZJRTPjN8oI

Incredible speed! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_6YMtfBjKs

Sighthounds are incredibly impressive dogs when allowed to do what they were designed for. Sad that most people only know them for chasing mechanical rabbits.

also please remember; humans ARE ANIMALS. We are just part of nature, and hunting is natural for us. I hate when people talk about humans as if we are soooo different and separate from the other animals, we are not. You think if coyotes had evolved into the dominant species on the planet like humans that they would be any more compassionate? They'd be hunting us and posting on coyote youtube lol.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Except that, if humans lived as animals, most of us would be dead . Anybody not physically sound, anybody who was difficult as a child, anybody who got sick, anybody whose dad took off or died (males of many species kill other males' offspring). There's a certain level of civilization humans need to maintain.


----------



## Na-Tasha (Aug 13, 2014)

Why is it "sad" if some people only know of sighthounds chasing fake lures? Not all people care to see a dog maul another animal to death, whether that's what they were bred for or not. I don't see the issue if the dog is having fun chasing a fake thing around and people are enjoying watching the dog run and enjoy itself, there's nothing "sad" about it, just the opposite, it's truly amazing to watch them run with such focused determination. I'm thinking of getting a sighthound for my far future next dog, and while I will not allow my dog to chase or kill other animals, I would absolutely love to see it in action running a fake lure. I figure I'd better add this: I'm not against people using dogs to hunt with, as long as it's done ethically, and I'm sure all the posted hunting videos are showing some very talented sighthounds. 


Coyote youtube heh. We'd get such glorious instructional videos on road runner anatomy: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP5XFW4dD3k
super genius indeed


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> He would outright agree with the statement "I believe that animals only exist for the amusement and use of humans". He has made statements to that effect.
> 
> He had an emotional attachment to his dog and he didn't want to shoot him, so he had the vet do it. He gets more use from his domestic animals if he treats them well. But he does not think it's wrong to cause an animal to suffer if it amuses and/or is useful to a human. This is how he presents his beliefs and I have no reason to doubt his sincerity.


Okay, so that is THIS ONE GUY. No one here is saying there AREN'T people out there like that, there ARE. We are saying that not EVERY hunter, farmer, or rancher is like that and to make wide, sweeping statements and assumptions that they are is not right.



parus said:


> My stepfather has always been a good pet owner, and he's shot several of his dogs when they needed euthanized. Personally, I couldn't do it unless it was an emergency, but done correctly I don't think it's a mark of poor animal husbandry to do that instead of going to the vet to do it with drugs. Depending on the animal it may be much less stressful to just dispatch it at home, really.


This. Sometimes, in some situations, there isn't a vet available, in a reasonable amount of time, I would much rather see someone dispatch a suffering animal humanely and quickly with a bullet than to allow it to suffer, just so a vet can do it.



TSTrainer said:


> I'm in camp "dogs kind of evolved BECAUSE they were useful to humans for the purposes of hunting game, providing protection against predators who preyed on humans AND livestock, and also because we liked having them around." It wasn't like we woke up one day centuries ago and thought "man, I could use a fuzzy companion! Lemme go catch a wolf pup!" They just showed up and BECAME useful and that's why we kept them around. And nowadays, dogs DO exist for human enjoyment for the most part, but the dogs in this video and the ones Johnny describe, the ones used on cattle ranches and on boar hunts and coy removal... Those are just doing what they've ALWAYS done.
> 
> Here in my city we have a problem with vermin and very skilled JRT and other terriers are used to get rid of them... Because it's too dangerous for humans to go into condemned buildings and between walls. Dogs have a purpose still and people take advantage of that, it's one of the things I find amazing about dog ownership. And if my dog ever managed to kill one of the many raccoons around here you better believe I'll be hooting and hollering... Because I HATE those things and they're a nuisance.
> 
> We also have a company who uses border collies to herd geese away from busy roads to protect them from being hit by a car. I love that. I love that we still use dogs to help us out in one way or another.


Me too, dogs evolved BECAUSE they were useful to early man, nothing else. The men got help with the hunt and what not, and the dogs got part of whatever the human's killed, it was (and still is) a symbiotic relationship.



Willowy said:


> If someone has the worldview that animals ONLY exist for the use of humans, then there is no basis to say that cruelty is wrong. Whatever humans want to do to animal is A-OK, because they're only tools to serve us. The only reason a human would be kind to an animal would be to further their own purposes.
> 
> I mean, I think it's fine to use animals to assist humans, provided they're treated humanely. But I don't think they exist solely for the use of humans.


See above, that IS why dogs evolved in what they are today, why we have so many breeds ... etc ... BECAUSE of their usefulness to humans for whatever purpose. I mean hairless breeds were made JUST to keep people warm at night, sure they might have done other things, too but that was their MAIN reason for existing.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

I think it's sad cause a lot of people don't even realize greyhounds are capable of working like this, and are more than just a miniature race-horse or house pet, and the only greyhounds most people will ever know are those rescued from the track. It's sad that a lot of breeds are 'unemployed' and now run colourful obstacle courses and chase plastic bags instead of being put to their proper use.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Terriermon said:


> I think it's sad cause a lot of people don't even realize greyhounds are capable of working like this, and are more than just a miniature race-horse or house pet, and the only greyhounds most people will ever know are those rescued from the track. It's sad that a lot of breeds are 'unemployed' and now run colourful obstacle courses and chase plastic bags instead of being put to their proper use.


Agreed, it WAS what they were originally bred for, after all.


----------



## Na-Tasha (Aug 13, 2014)

I still disagree that it's "sad" that most sighthounds don't do real work for a living. If I do end up with a sighthound, I'm not going to be ashamed of it being "just" a pet and unable to fulfill it's "been bred for" job. (if I do get a sighthound it's going to be either a Saluki or Afghan  ) However, I'm not going to argue about it, I think we're all firm in our thoughts on the subject and aren't going to be swayed by the other. But I think we can all agree that they are highly skilled breeds and perform their jobs/sports with a determination and enthusiasm that is infectious. Sighthounds are indeed poetry in motion when running, and it's thrilling to watch! Awesome dogs!


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think it's sad that some people want to watch their dogs rip another animal up. Some dogs were originally bred to rip up humans in the gladiator arenas. Ooh, wouldn't it be lots of fun to see them do what they were bred for! Some dogs were bred to rip up other dogs for human amusement. Yay, dog fighting! [/sarcasm]

I guess we all have our own definitions of what's sad.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I think it's sad that some people want to watch their dogs rip another animal up. Some dogs were originally bred to rip up humans in the gladiator arenas. Ooh, wouldn't it be lots of fun to see them do what they were bred for! Some dogs were bred to rip up other dogs for human amusement. Yay, dog fighting! [/sarcasm]
> 
> I guess we all have our own definitions of what's sad.


I love watching dogs doing what they do.... Hounds hunting, Terriers.... etc. I LOVE watching police dogs catching bad guys....

I was in the ER in February..... They had me in an isolation area because I currently have a suppressed immune system. So I was near where they house Psych and criminal patients. The Ambulance brought in a guy that had got torn up by a police dog.... Despite feeling like crap, I spent the afternoon trying to figure out how to get into the secure ward. I wanted to see what the dog did to the guy.



BTW.... Your raccoon with the broken back legs keeps coming back to me.. It keeps popping back into my head.... I cannot imagine anyone bringing up such a discussion with me... Telling me they did such a thing.... And I would certainly think between you and I, I would be much easier to tell such a thing... And if you are a tenth outspoken in person as you are on here, this is simply not a conversation someone would have with you..... Just does not pass the sniff test.....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Not that I care if you believe me. . .but the mail carriers talk among themselves (all men), and I do stuff around the office and listen. I'm also not at all outspoken irl. He won't tell unpleasant dog stories in my hearing anymore because I once got visibly upset but he still tells wild animal stories.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Not that I care if you believe me. . .but the mail carriers talk among themselves (all men), and I do stuff around the office and listen. I'm also not at all outspoken irl. He won't tell unpleasant dog stories in my hearing anymore because I once got visibly upset but he still tells wild animal stories.


Then you must live on the set of the Hills Have Eyes.... OR Texas Chainsaw Massacre..... Because I have lived and am related to some no shoes wearing, roadkill eating, date your cousin types... And such a conversation would never happen...


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

This is the first site that comes up when I Google "using live raccoons to train **** dogs": 

http://www.huntingraccoon.com/coon_dog_training.html "shooting the raccoon from a tree is the best so that the raccoon isn't in its toughest form to fight with your dog in training." "Once your dogs are tough and in shape, you may opt to simply wound the Raccoon so it puts up more of a fight. Dogs love the thrill of the kill!"


----------



## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

I live in a fairly suburban area. I've heard kids bragging about the chihuahua they stole, broke its legs, and used to train their pit to 'like blood'. I've also witnessed a guy watch his small dog be mauled by a doberman and sit there saying 'he had it coming'. The dog died, he didn't care at all, even though he seemed like he took good care of it otherwise.

Now, these people aren't the cream of the crop. There are certainly (well, hopefully) way more 'normal' people out there. It just really doesn't seem far fetched to me that someone would use a raccoon in that way and talk about it. Just because people are one way in a certain area, doesn't mean they are like that everywhere... it's actually totally normal for culture to be different even from town to town, nevermind different areas of the country. Every place has their weirdos.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> This is the first site that comes up when I Google "using live raccoons to train **** dogs":
> 
> http://www.huntingraccoon.com/coon_dog_training.html "shooting the raccoon from a tree is the best so that the raccoon isn't in its toughest form to fight with your dog in training." "Once your dogs are tough and in shape, you may opt to simply wound the Raccoon so it puts up more of a fight. Dogs love the thrill of the kill!"


We were talking about your "coworkers" raccoon story.... Nice attempt at a deflect...Nice try....



I remember now where I heard your raccoon story before... I thought it was familiar..... It was on an episode of Rescue 911......

Interesting..... And predictable....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I've never seen Rescue 911. And I linked to that website because you were saying he's an evil anomaly and you've never heard of anyone else wounding a raccoon to train their dog. Well I guess you have now.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I've never seen Rescue 911. And I linked to that website because you were saying he's an evil anomaly and you've never heard of anyone else wounding a raccoon to train their dog. Well I guess you have now.


Okay.... Never seen rescue 911 but have the same story.....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Why don't you link to that episode? I grew up overseas and missed out on a lot of pop culture. I guess he's not such an anomaly.


----------



## DogtorWho15 (Aug 31, 2015)

Wow that was really cool to watch!! I as well do feel a little bad for the coyote because my mom raised an abandoned baby once, BUT they are everywhere here and kill many good things that are greatly needed, and I have no problem with greyhounds doing what they are good at. And clearly they enjoy it

I didnt read all the posts but if people have such a problem with greyhounds hunting coyotes why dont they have a problem with chickens killing mice?? Its the same thing, do the mice get killed right away? No... They squeal for a bit and get smacked on the ground until their neck is broke........But sometimes people need less of them because they give disease or eat our pets food which costs money and lives. Just like coyotes kill livestock


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Why don't you link to that episode? I grew up overseas and missed out on a lot of pop culture. I guess he's not such an anomaly.



You grew up overseas.... But this is recent.... Last few years...... 

And you are quite capable of googling things when you want to find something.....


in any case..... I said okay........


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

DogtorWho15 said:


> why dont they have a problem with chickens killing mice?? Its the same thing, do the mice get killed right away?


Chickens kill mice???

Willowy I think your point has been well made by now. Yes, some people cause suffering in animals and you hate it. Think it's bad here? Try moving to China, see what you think of how they treat animals. Are you a vegan?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Na-Tasha said:


> I still disagree that it's "sad" that most sighthounds don't do real work for a living. If I do end up with a sighthound, I'm not going to be ashamed of it being "just" a pet and unable to fulfill it's "been bred for" job. (if I do get a sighthound it's going to be either a Saluki or Afghan  ) However, I'm not going to argue about it, I think we're all firm in our thoughts on the subject and aren't going to be swayed by the other. But I think we can all agree that they are highly skilled breeds and perform their jobs/sports with a determination and enthusiasm that is infectious. Sighthounds are indeed poetry in motion when running, and it's thrilling to watch! Awesome dogs!


Totally agree there.



Willowy said:


> Why don't you link to that episode? I grew up overseas and missed out on a lot of pop culture. I guess he's not such an anomaly.


Look , you still havent said WHY you continue to vilify all farmers, ranchers and hunters based on the actions of a few "bad apples" who have practices ethical hunters / farmers / ranchers dont agree with.

THIS is what everyone wants you to explain!!!


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Stunning and brutal footage!

I am curious... Let's say those greyhounds were let out and instead of a coyote there was, say, the neighbor's dog from the next property over. Or a guy playing fetch with his dog. Or a person practicing for a marathon... I know, silly examples. But my point is, if the greyhounds and other sighthounds are born with the instinct to chase and dispatch, could they differentiate coyote from a fox or another dog or a deer? 

Second question. If the coyote wasn't running (I know, another silly example since why wouldn't a coyote run from a truck and a pack of dogs) would the hounds still have made the kill?


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Greyhounds/sighthounds are often really, really, not okay with small/smaller dogs. Like 'need to be muzzled around'. So, yeah, that instinct will kick in. I don't see them going after a person, but a quickly running dog? YEP.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

I believe that had the coyote stood it's ground, the dogs would still make the kill_ if _they were in a pack. A lone sighthound would probably have a tough time fighting a coyote except maybe a borzoi. 
I'm sure they would know the difference between their quarry and a person, but once they are in "hunt mode" and lock in on something running I don't think it's going to matter what it is, as long as it keeps running they are going to catch first and ask questions later.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Terriermon said:


> Chickens kill mice???
> 
> Willowy I think your point has been well made by now. Yes, some people cause suffering in animals and you hate it. Think it's bad here? Try moving to China, see what you think of how they treat animals. Are you a vegan?


yes chickens kill mice, what really got me is catching a duck chasing down a mouse and gulping it down whole.. My original thought was questioning if I was feeding them enough lol..


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Canyx said:


> Stunning and brutal footage!
> 
> I am curious... Let's say those greyhounds were let out and instead of a coyote there was, say, the neighbor's dog from the next property over. Or a guy playing fetch with his dog. Or a person practicing for a marathon... I know, silly examples. But my point is, if the greyhounds and other sighthounds are born with the instinct to chase and dispatch, could they differentiate coyote from a fox or another dog or a deer?
> 
> Second question. If the coyote wasn't running (I know, another silly example since why wouldn't a coyote run from a truck and a pack of dogs) would the hounds still have made the kill?


The dogs would go after the neighbors dog, a barn cat, a deer, etc with the same enthusiasm. 

While the coyote running builds excitement for the dogs, if it stood its ground, it would not matter. The dogs would get it.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PatriciafromCO said:


> yes chickens kill mice, what really got me is catching a duck chasing down a mouse and gulping it down whole.. My original thought was questioning if I was feeding them enough lol..


LOL they can be funny.....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You grew up overseas.... But this is recent.... Last few years......
> 
> And you are quite capable of googling things when you want to find something.....
> 
> ...


According to wikipedia, Rescue 911 has not had any new episodes since 1996. I tried Googling it, looked at the synopsis for every episode, and didn't find what you were talking about. Maybe a different show? 

I'm soft, I know it. I even took a mouse away from the cat this morning. And just put it outside the door so it'll probably be back. Maybe that's stupid but it's me, and I can't be anyone else but me.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The dogs would go after the neighbors dog, a barn cat, a deer, etc with the same enthusiasm.
> 
> While the coyote running builds excitement for the dogs, if it stood its ground, it would not matter. The dogs would get it.


is there any between for these working dogs to know what is theirs, (belongs on the farm) how would they be kept when not working?


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> is there any between for these working dogs to know what is theirs, (belongs on the farm) how would they be kept when not working?


Overly simplistic answer: They're hounds with incredibly high prey-drive. Absolutely not 'working/guarding' dogs who discriminate in any way. Not all are that high drive, but when they're capable of doing that, they don't draw a lot of lines.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Terriermon said:


> I believe that had the coyote stood it's ground, the dogs would still make the kill_ if _they were in a pack. A lone sighthound would probably have a tough time fighting a coyote except maybe a borzoi.
> .


I am going to disagree here. A single seasoned greyhound from a working line should be able to handle a coyote without much issue.

Nothing about coyotes makes them exceptionally physically tough. When they are successful in either significantly hurting or taking a medium sized dog or larger, it stems from their drive and tenacity. They are successful on dogs with softer temperaments. 

There is a video of a pit mix that runs around the internet. the dog is 70 pounds, and has the build of a linebacker. Got torn up pretty bad by a single coyote. Physically the dog should have been able to destroy to coyote...

Conversely this happened mere feet in front of me... We were working a lane between the back of an orange grove and a hammock and swamp. Looking for hogs coming into and out of the orange grove. We were easing down the lane in my Jeep and had my buddy's Patterdale Terrier Bitch on the ground out in front of us. A good sized male coyote came out on nowhere and pounced on the dog. We both yelled OH CRAP (not really what we said) and bailed out of my Jeep to get the coyote off the dog. But in the time it took us to cover less than 20 yards she had the coyote and he was in deep trouble. He pounced, she dodged, came up between his front legs and got him by the throat... She was NOT letting go and the coyote could not do anything. He was gone pretty quick. Even after he was dead we had a hard time getting her off of him. I never thought I would have to use a break stick to open the mouth of such a small dog... The coyotes trachea felt like a bag of gravel. She destroyed. And I did not see it, but that same dog got jumped another time by a different coyote and the end result was much the same. She took a couple licks on the second one but managed to get hold of him and did him in. 


As Granddaddy always said.... It is not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PatriciafromCO said:


> is there any between for these working dogs to know what is theirs, (belongs on the farm) how would they be kept when not working?


Hounds and hunting dogs in general are not good at such discrimination. You control what and when and where they go after by managing the dogs... They are not good at self managing such things. 

You might get such behavior successfully out of cur breeds. Catahoulas, BM Curs, Blue Lacy, Leopard Curs, etc. But they are more do it all generalist farm dogs. 

Hounds not so much.... they tend to be very single minded about such things..... 

YOU MIGHT be able to get that behavior out of a single hound. but not a pack. Pack mentality is going to take over the individual thought process of any single dog.

Sort of a "mob rules" scenario.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh and keeping of groups of hounds usually involves kennels. 

Rat Terriers also fit the 'will kill the crap out of what doesn't belong, won't eat your livestock' camp, but. Still not hounds.

And probably dinner for most coyotes. Not because of size per se but because many are really fairly soft.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am going to disagree here. A single seasoned greyhound from a working line should be able to handle a coyote without much issue.
> 
> Nothing about coyotes makes them exceptionally physically tough. When they are successful in either significantly hurting or taking a medium sized dog or larger, it stems from their drive and tenacity. They are successful on dogs with softer temperaments.
> 
> ...


This is why i can't phantom people getting a terrier breed and thinking ohhhh they so cute...... lol...


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Oh and keeping of groups of hounds usually involves kennels.
> 
> Rat Terriers also fit the 'will kill the crap out of what doesn't belong, won't eat your livestock' camp, but. Still not hounds.
> 
> And probably dinner for most coyotes. Not because of size per se but because many are really fairly soft.


Thanks Cptjack for your responses...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> According to wikipedia, Rescue 911 has not had any new episodes since 1996. I tried Googling it, looked at the synopsis for every episode, and didn't find what you were talking about. Maybe a different show?
> 
> I'm soft, I know it. I even took a mouse away from the cat this morning. And just put it outside the door so it'll probably be back. Maybe that's stupid but it's me, and I can't be anyone else but me.


The show is there... I will find it tonight...


And being soft has nothing to do with your broad sweeping incorrect statements about hunters, ranchers and farmers.

You take one little thing.... that maybe you heard... maybe you read... maybe you assumed..... And apply it to all people within those groups. 
It is incorrect unrealistic and frankly demeaning and rude at the least.

It would be like me, condemning all mail carriers because of the actions of single inconsiderate one.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It would be like me, condemning all mail carriers because of the actions of single inconsiderate one.


Yep. Like, for example, our current mail carrier at work deliberately does not deliver the mail to Unit B of our building (has it's own entrance), and instead leaves it for us to sort through and deliver to where it needs to go.

I'm still waiting for my commission cheque from Canada post for doing part of the route for them.

But I don't go "all mail carriers are lazy so-and-so's that don't do their job"


----------



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks CptJack, Terriermom, and JB! I've never seen this side to sight hounds before because they are often portrayed as gentle, elegant couch potatoes. But I knew there was an actual reason for that physique and prey drive.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Hounds and hunting dogs in general are not good at such discrimination. You control what and when and where they go after by managing the dogs... They are not good at self managing such things.
> 
> You might get such behavior successfully out of cur breeds. Catahoulas, BM Curs, Blue Lacy, Leopard Curs, etc. But they are more do it all generalist farm dogs.
> 
> ...


thanks all good things to fully understand when choosing breeds....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> But I don't go "all mail carriers are lazy so-and-so's that don't do their job"


I don't care if you do though. There are enough of them who are jerks that I wouldn't blame anyone. And I know how I do my job so you can think what you want. I don't know why people would take it personally---if someone is not cruel to animals, I'm not talking about them. If someone is cruel to animals, I AM talking about them, with extreme prejudice (even if they feel justified in their actions), I don't like them, and I hope they know it.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I don't care if you do though. There are enough of them who are jerks that I wouldn't blame anyone. And I know how I do my job so you can think what you want. I don't know why people would take it personally---if someone is not cruel to animals, I'm not talking about them. If someone is cruel to animals, I AM talking about them, with extreme prejudice (even if they feel justified in their actions), I don't like them, and I hope they know it.


Because it's the same thing as racism, or sexism, or homophobia or making sweeping negative statements about people with mental health issues or religious affiliations or - It's bigoted, rude, hurtful, and frankly just plain mean. People get upset when you make negative assumptions about them - wrong or right - based on belonging to some group or another that isn't relevant to the issue for which you are judging them. You not understanding that is not something *I* buy. You're not stupid.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't really feel like it's quite the same. I did also say that just because someone did something bad doesn't mean they're A Bad Person.

But some of it is also due to irreconcilable differences. There are some things that fit the definition of cruelty, but those that engage in those behaviors will never admit that it's cruelty. I can't agree with them or condone their actions, and they aren't going to stop, so I'm just going to keep saying that I can't condone their actions.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

A guy does a cruel thing. That guy is cruel/being cruel.

A guy does a cruel thing and happens to belong to *insert group here*, members of that group are not inherently cruel.

Your original statement was that *group* is a certain way, not that you have known individuals who did cruel things.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Hunters, farmers, and people in your state/town. Those are the people/groups you have lumped together. I think all of us have individual stories of awfulness, and maybe even some 'the culture of this area allows some bad things/I see a lot of bad things', but you've got a knack for 'ALL OF THESE PEOPLE IN THESE GROUPS ARE HORRIFICALLY CRUEL!!!". That's a problem.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> Because it's the same thing as racism, or sexism, or homophobia or making sweeping negative statements about people with mental health issues or religious affiliations or - It's bigoted, rude, hurtful, and frankly just plain mean. People get upset when you make negative assumptions about them - wrong or right - based on belonging to some group or another that isn't relevant to the issue for which you are judging them. You not understanding that is not something *I* buy. You're not stupid.


This!!!! X10!!!!!



Willowy said:


> I don't care if you do though. There are enough of them who are jerks that I wouldn't blame anyone. And I know how I do my job so you can think what you want. I don't know why people would take it personally---if someone is not cruel to animals, I'm not talking about them. If someone is cruel to animals, I AM talking about them, with extreme prejudice (even if they feel justified in their actions), I don't like them, and I hope they know it.


Why would people care? Because you are taking a specific event, done by one person..... And in almost all cases it is not an event or action that you witnessed happening..... Just something you heard about, overheard, read about, etc.... May or may not even be true..... Then you take that specific thing that you are not even really sure happened and condemn entire groups and classes of people....

What you do is exactly like this..... Say I was sitting in McDonalds eating a burger..... I overhear the guy at the table next to me talking about how his car got stolen by a person of a certain class or race..... Then I take what I overheard, and decide that ALL people of that class or race are bad and steal cars..... And to make matters worse, I go out into chat rooms and forums and make endless blanket statements at every opportunity.

That is EXACTLY what you do.... Heck you do not even know the car was stolen.... . But you condemn everyone.....

I seriously doubt you regularly witness accounts of cruelty. Maybe at some time you have... But by your own admission you base most of what you say on things you have read or heard...... Ala the raccoon story..... Which reads nearly word for word from an Animal Rescue 411 episode.... And frankly I do not buy that someone was talking about breaking a raccoons legs in a US Post Office Break Room..... And I know you said you do not care what I think. But you have tried to defend your statement AWFUL hard for somone that does not care.... I do not buy the story and do not buy that you do not care. 




Willowy said:


> I don't really feel like it's quite the same. I did also say that just because someone did something bad doesn't mean they're A Bad Person.
> 
> But some of it is also due to irreconcilable differences. There are some things that fit the definition of cruelty, but those that engage in those behaviors will never admit that it's cruelty. I can't agree with them or condone their actions, and they aren't going to stop, so I'm just going to keep saying that I can't condone their actions.


But it is the same..... End of story......


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> yes chickens kill mice, what really got me is catching a duck chasing down a mouse and gulping it down whole.. My original thought was questioning if I was feeding them enough lol..


Interesting! ducks, and chickens will eat mice ... I learned something today!



Willowy said:


> According to wikipedia, Rescue 911 has not had any new episodes since 1996. I tried Googling it, looked at the synopsis for every episode, and didn't find what you were talking about. Maybe a different show?
> 
> I'm soft, I know it. I even took a mouse away from the cat this morning. And just put it outside the door so it'll probably be back. Maybe that's stupid but it's me, and I can't be anyone else but me.


No one is asking you to not be you, they are saying that you shouldnt be judging others for not being like you and sharing your view about "how things should be" ... at least that is the consensus I got. 



CptJack said:


> Oh and keeping of groups of hounds usually involves kennels.
> 
> Rat Terriers also fit the 'will kill the crap out of what doesn't belong, won't eat your livestock' camp, but. Still not hounds.
> 
> And probably dinner for most coyotes. Not because of size per se but because many are really fairly soft.


I know some high drive working terriers that LIVE with cats, and other small animals, even rats and rabbits, of course they arent "turned loose" with them, but they do, and can "learn their own" so to speak. 

A true hunting terrier like a patterdale, or a Jagdterrier would try to fight back, but one on one against a pack of coyotes they wouldnt have a chance, not even I dont think against one, but they would go down fighting i think.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> A true hunting terrier like a patterdale, or a Jagdterrier would try to fight back, but one on one against a pack of coyotes they wouldnt have a chance, not even I dont think against one, but they would go down fighting i think.


As I mentioned earlier in this thread. And on other occasions. I have witnessed a Patterdale against a coyote. Patterdale killed the coyote... FAST.... I know for a fact she killed a second coyote on another occasion.


And while I have not seen a Jagdterrier scrap with a coyote.... Everything I have seen from Jagdterriers is..... Jagdterrier > Patterdale. 

Both breeds are commonly used on feral hogs here. And both breeds excel at it.... If they can survive wild hogs, they can survive coyotes. 

There are even some guys that breed JRTs for hogs down here. They lose some dogs but have some success as well.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> As I mentioned earlier in this thread. And on other occasions. I have witnessed a Patterdale against a coyote. Patterdale killed the coyote... FAST.... I know for a fact she killed a second coyote on another occasion.
> 
> 
> And while I have not seen a Jagdterrier scrap with a coyote.... Everything I have seen from Jagdterriers is..... Jagdterrier > Patterdale.
> ...


Oh yes, JRT are awesome dogs, IF you, like everything else, get a well bred one, if I were to get another, it would be through the JRTCA standard and registry, I dont like what AKC has done to the JRT.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am going to disagree here. A single seasoned greyhound from a working line should be able to handle a coyote without much issue.
> 
> Conversely this happened mere feet in front of me... We were working a lane between the back of an orange grove and a hammock and swamp. Looking for hogs coming into and out of the orange grove. We were easing down the lane in my Jeep and had my buddy's Patterdale Terrier Bitch on the ground out in front of us. A good sized male coyote came out on nowhere and pounced on the dog. We both yelled OH CRAP (not really what we said) and bailed out of my Jeep to get the coyote off the dog. But in the time it took us to cover less than 20 yards she had the coyote and he was in deep trouble. He pounced, she dodged, came up between his front legs and got him by the throat... She was NOT letting go and the coyote could not do anything. He was gone pretty quick. Even after he was dead we had a hard time getting her off of him. I never thought I would have to use a break stick to open the mouth of such a small dog... The coyotes trachea felt like a bag of gravel. She destroyed. And I did not see it, but that same dog got jumped another time by a different coyote and the end result was much the same. She took a couple licks on the second one but managed to get hold of him and did him in..


Patterdales are awesome!!

You are right it depends on the hound too I guess, and the coyote. We have some big ones up here, they bred with wolves apparently

A single jagdterrier could do it if a patterdale could, though I've read plenty of posts on hunting forums of people losing jagds to them


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Which reads nearly word for word from an Animal Rescue 411 episode.


If you're going to accuse me of making stuff up, I'm going to insist on finding this story. There is no TV show called Animal Rescue 411. Rescue 911 was on 20 years ago and doesn't list this as a storyline.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> If you're going to accuse me of making stuff up, I'm going to insist on finding this story. There is no TV show called Animal Rescue 411. Rescue 911 was on 20 years ago and doesn't list this as a storyline.


Even if you didnt make this up, it is still really offensive the way you talk about farmers, ranchers and hunters in general.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Well damn they do kill mice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4vNXCsF9wY

While no one was hooting and hollering, how disturbing no one put down the camera to help the mouse! Those darn country folk. -_-


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> If you're going to accuse me of making stuff up, I'm going to insist on finding this story. There is no TV show called Animal Rescue 411. Rescue 911 was on 20 years ago and doesn't list this as a storyline.



There is no "if you are going to" about it..... I have been saying for two days I do not buy the raccoon story..... I do not buy that you heard it first hand.... And do not buy that the conversation even took place in a United States Postal Service break room....

And if it did take place.... Why did you not report it? Oh yea.... I forgot... South Dakota... Right.... They do not enforce anything there.... They break little birdy wings in the park by the courthouse and no one lifts a finger........

The thing is..... You made this statement......


Willowy said:


> If someone is cruel to animals, I AM talking about them, with extreme prejudice (even if they feel justified in their actions), I don't like them, and I hope they know it.


So this guy said this to you and you did nothing? Even if he was not convicted or even charged, the accusation is enough to be a great big hassle for them....

And even if you believe it was a complete waste of time to report to the local authorities.... You work for the USPS..... Him telling that story in front others in the work place falls under Hostile work environment. It is against the law. A quick call to HR and his little red wagon would be in hot water.... 

You said if someone committed cruelty to animals...... You were talking about them with extreme prejudice.

Sound more like to me that you just like to talk about it on the internet... 

The thing is Willowy..... You are so worried and pre occupied with being right and pointing out the horrors of animal cruelty that hide behind every bush..... You fail to see what you say.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

So much of this depends on geography and local ecology.

I kinda like coyotes. They aren't a nuisance in my area. You rarely see them, and neighbors aren't loosing free-ranging chickens or rabbits or pygmy goats. I've been finding quite a few dog-like turds with a lot of hair in them on the bike path lately in places where no one but me walks their dogs: coyote is my best guess. I've seen them a couple times.

I imagine that without a few coys we'd have a lot more problems with feral cats and overpopulation of deer. As someone who loves songbirds and tries to garden, I regard feral cats and excess deer as worse vermin than the coys.

Imagine the conflagration we'd have if someone posted a video of lure coursing of feral cats (IMO, a great idea for parts of Australia where cats are driving native fauna to extinction and they're using poison baits to eradicate cats and foxes).


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sandgrubber said:


> So much of this depends on geography and local ecology.
> 
> I kinda like coyotes. They aren't a nuisance in my area. You rarely see them, and neighbors aren't loosing free-ranging chickens or rabbits or pygmy goats. I've been finding quite a few dog-like turds with a lot of hair in them on the bike path lately in places where no one but me walks their dogs: coyote is my best guess. I've seen them a couple times.
> 
> ...


I have no issues with someone coursing feral cats..... I value the native wildlife much more than the feral cats.... 

And that is part of my issue with coyotes here in Florida... Or the Southeast for that matter... They moved here.. But are not supposed to be here....


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have no issues with someone coursing feral cats..... I value the native wildlife much more than the feral cats....
> 
> And that is part of my issue with coyotes here in Florida... Or the Southeast for that matter... They moved here.. But are not supposed to be here....


The moved here, yes, but as I understand it, they moved in because the top predator niche has been so badly depleted. And I'd guess there'd be a lot of conflict if wolves, bobcats and panthers were to be abundant. Bear are already starting to be a nuisance in some places, but I don't think bear and coys interact much . .. or do they?.

I really don't understand the ecology here. I live about 10 miles from the setting of The Yearling. Unless that novel vastly over represents the abundance of predators, there's been pretty horrid devastation of the apex predators. 

p.s. I think some others here would be upset by coursing feral cats. The greyhound adoption folks sure reacted badly when I suggested it in Australia.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

I would pay top dollar for a license to kill feral cats. I'm an avid birder too and truly hate them. Keeping our yard cat-free is one our dog's most important jobs. Once a cat steps foot outside of a house it is "feral" in my books and I lose any compassion towards them.

is Australia going forward with the cull? This subject really irks me as its one that can never be resolved because of interference of cat lovers. Spay/neuter and feeding programs for feral cat colonies DO NOT WORK you get a fat, content colony that still goes a' huntin' every night and every day and just bats around their kills instead of eating it. Cat lovers argue feeding the cats keeps them from hunting they actually believe cats only hunt out of hunger, it's so ridiculous.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Terriermon said:


> I would pay top dollar for a license to kill feral cats. I'm an avid birder too and truly hate them. Keeping our yard cat-free is one our dog's most important jobs. Once a cat steps foot outside of a house it is "feral" in my books and I lose any compassion towards them.
> 
> is Australia going forward with the cull? This subject really irks me as its one that can never be resolved because of interference of cat lovers. Spay/neuter and feeding programs for feral cat colonies DO NOT WORK you get a fat, content colony that still goes a' huntin' every night and every day and just bats around their kills instead of eating it. Cat lovers argue feeding the cats keeps them from hunting they actually believe cats only hunt out of hunger, it's so ridiculous.


I think the cull is actively going on in Western Australia using 1080, a truly awful poison to which cats are very sensitive, and indigenous wildlife, pretty tolerant. The extent of the cull, however, is not large. Google isn't helping much today . . . not sure of the latest on this.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I would support any license to eradicate any feral, invasive, and non native species, I mean just look at the problems they are having in Florida with all those boas and pythons that got out and now there is a breeding population threatening all the native wildlife. 

Same here with feral hogs. If coys weren't a threat here, I'd leave them alone because like JB said, they keep the baddies away, but they don't, the pack we have around here is trouble so when they try to cause trouble, we take care of them. I am sorry if that seems cruel to some people, but if you really think about it, its really just one predator protecting their property from another.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Terriermon said:


> Well damn they do kill mice
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4vNXCsF9wY
> 
> While no one was hooting and hollering, how disturbing no one put down the camera to help the mouse! Those darn country folk. -_-


 the duck was just not quick enough, barn management, within a specific territory. i don't mind it.. I love my local Ravens their huge and beautiful creatures, especially one who thinks he lives here, will follow me around while doing chores, or sit up on the yard light and talk to me. hover at my back door and call for me.. Very endearing creature... yes, it breaks my heart to see a Raven perhaps my Raven get a baby gosling or chick and watch them fly off with their kill.. Its a shame and lack of management by the gosling parents in that moment who are very alert and good in a flock to protect their babies.. Enter Abhik my puppy CO she is natural about flying predators and relentless withing the property boundaries to follow and chase from the ground and bark when they fly over especially around the big barn where the birds are. She has never gotten a bird her antics just cause them to move on.. love the predator birds wish them no harm always happy to see the old horned owls, the little snow owls out hunting mice and rabbits, and maybe where some of my barn cats have gone over the 16 years...especially with the one Eagle I have seen once in a while sitting on the electric pole at the road ... love my Raven Oliver, wish him no harm.. have to learn boundaries, and i have to manage my animals for their safety... Don't hold it against a predator, they not wasteful, and they not killing just to kill... like a neighborhood dog would do.. always respect and find the balance to give them the opportunity to move on when managing my farm correctly










'


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

We have tons of invasive exotics here in Florida. Including coyotes. they got here about 25 or 30 years ago


Actually the coyotes have done a number on a number of feral cat colonies in west central and south Florida. 

I have a plan for Florida.

Coyotes eat the feral cats, the nile monitor eggs, and the tegu eggs. 

The Burmese Pythons eat the coyotes. 

the Feral Hogs eat the pythons...

But I am still not sure what to do about the hogs and monkeys.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> We have tons of invasive exotics here in Florida. Including coyotes. they got here about 25 or 30 years ago
> 
> 
> Actually the coyotes have done a number on a number of feral cat colonies in west central and south Florida.
> ...


Forgot the blasted armadillos! The coys seem to let us down on that one.


----------



## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Interesting! ducks, and chickens will eat mice ... I learned something today!


I learned that pigs eat ducks...I HAD NO IDEA that they did or could do that but pigs eat anything so I guess it shouldn't surprise me but it did


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

kcomstoc said:


> I learned that pigs eat ducks...I HAD NO IDEA that they did or could do that but pigs eat anything so I guess it shouldn't surprise me but it did


I knew that feral ones will eat goats, chickens, ducks, etc ... so that really doesnt surprise me haha.


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Monkeys in FL? Really? Or is that a joke?


----------



## Werebadger (Jul 16, 2015)

I've seen chickens DEVOUR a baby bird that had fallen from its nest up high on the barn roof. It wasn't pretty, but they're animals and to be honest, it doesn't bother me.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

TGKvr said:


> Monkeys in FL? Really? Or is that a joke?



Nope, I've seen video of them. Two different schools of thought on how they got there, but they're there.
http://www.wildflorida.com/articles/Wild_Monkeys_in_Florida.php


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

TGKvr said:


> Monkeys in FL? Really? Or is that a joke?


Really.... There are at least 7 or 8 well established troops in Florida.

The Silver Springs troop is the best known. but there are also large troops in Dania Beach, Titusville, Homasassa, Miami, and North of Lakaland. There are some smaller troops scattered about... 

There was a small troop in St Petersburg that they actively tried to capture. Monkeys are VERY difficult to trap. Too intelligent. So mostly that have to shoot them with a tranqualizer. They got a bunch of those... But there are still periodic sightings.


Overall... Florida is eaten up with invasive exotics. There are a number of parrot species that are established and breeding. 
A bunch of other bird species as well. 

We have a TON of reptiles and amphibians established. Cane Toads, Cuban Tree Frogs, Burmese Pythons are estimated to well exceed 100 thousand animals. To a lesser extent African Rock Pythons. There are reports of an established colony of cape cobras but it has not been verified. We have nile monitors, Tegus, Iguanas (two species. The well known green iguana and a spiny tailed iguana) I do not know how many species of geckos, reports of veiled and jacksons chameleons, and all sorts of anole lizards. 

We have mammals as well. Hogs are the big one... But we have the monkeys, gambian pouch rats, nutria, etc. Coatis pop up enough that it has to be more than escaped pets. 

And the state will not verify this. But we have Jaguarundis as well. there are far too many sightings for it to be nothing.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Really.... There are at least 7 or 8 well established troops in Florida.
> 
> The Silver Springs troop is the best known. but there are also large troops in Dania Beach, Titusville, Homasassa, Miami, and North of Lakaland. There are some smaller troops scattered about...
> 
> ...


Oh and of course Coyotes


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Really.... There are at least 7 or 8 well established troops in Florida.
> 
> The Silver Springs troop is the best known. but there are also large troops in Dania Beach, Titusville, Homasassa, Miami, and North of Lakaland. There are some smaller troops scattered about...
> 
> ...


Note also that control of exotics is weak. Try looking at the pets section of Craigslist in any region in Florida. You'll see dozens of species for sale that have a good chance of going feral. 
Not to mention exotic plant species, which are everywhere.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> Monkeys in FL? Really? Or is that a joke?


Interesting, I didnt know that, either!


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Huh. Very interesting! You learn something new every day!


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> There is no "if you are going to" about it..... I have been saying for two days I do not buy the raccoon story..... I do not buy that you heard it first hand.... And do not buy that the conversation even took place in a United States Postal Service break room....
> 
> And if it did take place.... Why did you not report it? Oh yea.... I forgot... South Dakota... Right.... They do not enforce anything there.... They break little birdy wings in the park by the courthouse and no one lifts a finger........
> 
> ...


I told you, I'm not outspoken irl. Rather mousy and quiet in fact. Social anxiety, etc. I'm still not gonna let go of your accusation. That's some fighting words there. I don't lie. 

And, well, pointless, but I'm bored : Not in the break room; rural carriers talk while they case the mail. I could contact HR for hostile work environment, but they require that you tell the guy to knock it off before filing a complaint. And I wouldn't have the guts to say "hey, that conversation I overheard? Don't talk about that". And I'm sure the sheriff would love it if I called and said "I overheard a guy say he was cruel to a raccoon". And I don't believe you've never talked about your hunting conquests and/or dog training methods at work so why wouldn't this guy? He sees nothing wrong with it, so he wouldn't think it to be an inappropriate topic. 

So, yes, I do vent about it on the internet. Too scaredy to say it irl :/.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

As for the feral cat issue, your biggest problem is going to be public support/perception/compliance. If you kill feral cats, you WILL at some point kill someone's housecat, and they'll be mad. Only complete psychos will be consistently enthusiastic about helping you kill cats, normal people will be indifferent or fight you and sabotage your efforts. Even those that originally think your idea is OK will lose interest after a couple months. And it requires consistent effort and full public support to actually make a dent. I would totally sabotage any traps I saw if I knew the cats would be killed, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'd gladly take a fine if I got caught, but of course it's better to avoid getting caught . So it's kind of doomed to failure right there.

If humans hadn't totally screwed up the predator chain we wouldn't have such problems, but nooo. . .killed too many apex predators, now we gotta kill the rest of 'em too :/.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I told you, I'm not outspoken irl. Rather mousy and quiet in fact. Social anxiety, etc. I'm still not gonna let go of your accusation. That's some fighting words there. I don't lie.
> 
> And, well, pointless, but I'm bored : Not in the break room; rural carriers talk while they case the mail. I could contact HR for hostile work environment, but they require that you tell the guy to knock it off before filing a complaint. And I wouldn't have the guts to say "hey, that conversation I overheard? Don't talk about that". And I'm sure the sheriff would love it if I called and said "I overheard a guy say he was cruel to a raccoon". And I don't believe you've never talked about your hunting conquests and/or dog training methods at work so why wouldn't this guy? He sees nothing wrong with it, so he wouldn't think it to be an inappropriate topic.
> 
> So, yes, I do vent about it on the internet. Too scaredy to say it irl :/.


I still do not buy the raccoon story.. 
That is not meant to hurt your feelings.... But I don't

As for talking about hunting at work.... ALL the time... We all talk about it.... We talk about it at the hardware store, talk about it a the bar, talk about in the sporting goods store. At family supper, parties, everywhere...

But there is a WORLD of difference between talking about LEGAL ETHICAL hunting and felony animal cruelty. (depending on when you say this happened, it might have been a misdemeanor in your state. but it would be a felony now) I cannot imagine how you would even see this as comparable. 

It is about like talking about buying a new car as compared to talking about stealing a new car.. 


As for reporting him to HR.... there is Nothing in the Federal laws requiring you to tell him to "knock it off" first... ESPECIALLY with situations of hostile work environment where someone may feel uncomfortable about such a confrontation. The Organization you work for cannot have a policy that supersedes Federal Law.... Oh they can say they do. but it is not a valid policy. 

The larger issue.... Is not whether I buy your account of the raccoon incident or not..... But your continued and repeated attempts to take a specific incident or actions of one person and use that single specific incident to paint a broad brush.

The irony is those that you talk so negatively about in many if not most cases do far far more for the good and benefit of animals both directly and indirectly( by way of taxes, donations, sponsorships to fund conservation projects) than you ever dreamed of doing.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> As for the feral cat issue, your biggest problem is going to be public support/perception/compliance. If you kill feral cats, you WILL at some point kill someone's housecat, and they'll be mad. Only complete psychos will be consistently enthusiastic about helping you kill cats, normal people will be indifferent or fight you and sabotage your efforts. Even those that originally think your idea is OK will lose interest after a couple months. And it requires consistent effort and full public support to actually make a dent. I would totally sabotage any traps I saw if I knew the cats would be killed, and I'm sure I'm not alone. I'd gladly take a fine if I got caught, but of course it's better to avoid getting caught . So it's kind of doomed to failure right there.
> 
> If humans hadn't totally screwed up the predator chain we wouldn't have such problems, but nooo. . .killed too many apex predators, now we gotta kill the rest of 'em too :/.


I doubt seriously that you would do that, especially since you would likely have to trespass onto someone's property in order to do it, and I doubt, being how you explain yourself to be, that you would have the guts to do that.

I dont know how the laws are everywhere else, but if an animal ANY animal not of a protected or native species is causing issues I can deal with it how I see fit.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I doubt seriously that you would do that, especially since you would likely have to trespass onto someone's property in order to do it, and I doubt, being how you explain yourself to be, that you would have the guts to do that.
> 
> I dont know how the laws are everywhere else, but if an animal ANY animal not of a protected or native species is causing issues I can deal with it how I see fit.


I'm good at sneaking around . I'd fall apart if I got caught though, lol. But that's the issue---if someone only traps on their own property they'll NEVER make a dent. You need to trap everywhere, get permission to trap on other people's land, put traps on public property. People usually agree to let you catch a cat on their property if you'll be benefiting that cat. If you're going to kill it, a lot of people won't help. That's why trap-and-kill policies end up not working. That and worker fatigue---killing cats every day will wear on any person with a shred of empathy. TNR volunteers are a lot more dedicated and it's easier to get public support. 

Also, trapping cats, keeping them in the shelter for a stray hold, then putting them to sleep and disposing of the body costs more than TNR. For it to be cheaper and more efficient, the cats need to be killed on the spot. This makes even more people even more uncomfortable. And kills more pet cats, obviously.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

I really like the greyhound solution idea.

Seriously though, I know I sounded cruel what I said about cats, but it's such a frustrating issue. I sometimes volunteer with a bird banding group and there is a feral cat colony in one of our study areas. The county wants to trap and remove them. We want them trapped and removed. EVERYONE who loves nature and the landowners want them removed. But people have rallied together to protect the colony. The cats are all trapped, neutered, and released. Their is a caretaker assigned to feed them and generally watch over them. The claim is that the colony will eventually die out BUT the problem is, once word of this cozy kitty colony got out, it became a drop off center for unwanted cats. New ones are always showing up. It's never ending. Kittens magically appear out of this "fixed" population. It's really frustrating because the cat people are unwavering in their belief that if they keep feeding the cats, the cats won't go hunting and kill songbirds and such. Even though its been repeatedly proven that it's untrue. They generate so much sympathy with the media and on social media that the county is helpless to actually do anything about the cats. So the goddamn cat safari park remains, and likely will so until someone finally succeeds in wiping it out. People have tried, with guns, and dogs, and it just makes people outraged and further protects the colony. It's a really frustrating situation for birders and naturalists and I cannot think of any real solution besides killing them all. They are too feral to be rehabilitated and no one wants to cover the cost. I like cats when they are owned by responsible people who keep them indoors. I had two growing up. But they are awful, awful, nasty invasive pests when they get comfy outdoors. The only reason I kinda like coyotes is cause they seem to have developed a taste for them (wish they were allergic to dog lol).


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> As for talking about hunting at work.... ALL the time... We all talk about it.... We talk about it at the hardware store, talk about it a the bar, talk about in the sporting goods store. At family supper, parties, everywhere...


I find a lot of your stories utterly appalling. I find the video in the OP utterly appalling. I wonder how you would react if a co-worker filed a hostile work environment claim against you. . .


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

A "hostile work environment" is generally related to harassment that is sexual or targets a protected class (i.e. based on gender, ethnicity, disability, etc), or is retaliatory for taking advantage of legally protected activities like union membership, OSHA enforcement, FMLA use, etc. A case based on personal preferences about hunting probably would get zero traction.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

hostile work environment claim for talking about hunting? yeah good luck with that. If they are bringing a bloody carcass to work and slapping it on the lunch table maybe you'd get somewhere. If they knew you hated it and were doing it on purpose to harass you that is different too. If they are talking about poaching or doing something illegal that is different. If they are just talking about hunting in general as a hobby and you are sitting there listening and silently brooding thinking "what a bunch of stupid ********" or whatever, you are just being a jerk. It's kinda like how some people think those who keep snakes as pets are sick weirdos who enjoy watching mice get killed and eaten, right? It's not always the case and based on ignorance


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> As for the feral cat issue, your biggest problem is going to be public support/perception/compliance. If you kill feral cats, you WILL at some point kill someone's housecat, and they'll be mad. .


Well if the cat WAS a housecat.... It would be in the house... Where it belongs..... When people let their cats roam.... They do so at their own peril.... They can be mad... But they should only be mad at themselves......... For being irresponsible and in most places breaking the law..... 



Willowy said:


> Only complete psychos will be consistently enthusiastic about helping you kill cats, normal people will be indifferent or fight you and sabotage your efforts. .


Incorrect.... there are a GREAT many people that care about the mayhem feral cats cause with native wildlife and would willingly work an eradication program for as long as it took...




> or fight you and sabotage your efforts.


You said it right here....These are your psychopaths...... Sane people do not resort to sabotage. You see the psychos come out every time this issue comes up in local government.... Complete with their death threats (the ones they have made against my dogs are the ones that make me angry) slashed tires, vandalism, throwing road kill in your yard, etc.... 

Fun times... But you are confused as to who the psychos are...





Willowy said:


> I would totally sabotage any traps I saw if I knew the cats would be killed, and I'm sure I'm not alone. .


This is a crime..... It is a felony in some states..... It is a first degree misdemeanor in yours state..


> 41-8-28. Trap robbing or injury as misdemeanor. Any person who steals, damages or destroys a trap of another employed in the manner defined in subdivision 41-1-1(25), or who steals, damages, or destroys animals, animal carcasses, or the pelts thereof, held fast by such traps, is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A violation of this section is also subject to § 41-8-29.
> 
> Source: SL 1964, ch 83, § 1; SL 1977, ch 190, § 566; SL 1983, ch 300; SL 1991, ch 337, § 53; SL 2000,


Under the Sentencing Guidelines in your state, you could get a year in jail. I would think you would lose your job as well.....
So you are saying you would risk your job, everything you have and the safety and well being of your animals over a feral cat?

Alpha predators have nothing to do with it.... Feral colonies occur in cities, towns, suburbans and other places close to humans... There are very few active colonies anywhere remotely wild.... 

Feral cats have always been around....The reason the colonies are SO out of CONTROL now... Is that colonies are supported by humans.... Most colonies would not survive... And most feral cats have a short lifespan without human help. We feed them, doctor them, etc.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I find a lot of your stories utterly appalling. I find the video in the OP utterly appalling. I wonder how you would react if a co-worker filed a hostile work environment claim against you. . .



Would not happen.....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> A "hostile work environment" is generally related to harassment that is sexual or targets a protected class (i.e. based on gender, ethnicity, disability, etc), or is retaliatory for taking advantage of legally protected activities like union membership, OSHA enforcement, FMLA use, etc. A case based on personal preferences about hunting probably would get zero traction.


Mostly yes..... But anything that makes you uncomfortable can fall under hostile work environment.... 

I had to testify in a case that was classed as hostile work environment that involved discussion of religion....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> But that's the issue---if someone only traps on their own property they'll NEVER make a dent. .


Incorrect..... You just bait them up.... I have done it with hogs countless times.... Raccoons, and feral cats... 

Just put a lot of food out.... It will pull what you are after from a GOOD distance..... You bait, bait, bait..... Get them coming in.... Then Take the food away except for the food in the traps.... Then you trap, trap, trap.... When your trapping success drops down, pull the traps and bring the food back..... Bait them up again a while..... When they are coming in good again... Free food goes away and traps come back out... 

It is pathetically easy to do...... Of the species I have done it with.... Cats are the easiest.... They are the least intelligent or at least the least resourceful......


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I find a lot of your stories utterly appalling. I find the video in the OP utterly appalling. I wonder how you would react if a co-worker filed a hostile work environment claim against you. . .


Then why did you click on this thread? And then you clicked on the video.....

The difference between here and there... Is you clicked on the thread... And the description was pretty clear..... Then you clicked on the video.....

You find it appalling but you willingly clicked... Not once but twice.....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I didn't know "coursing" meant "tearing to pieces". I don't think I'm the only one. 

Now, if I should file a hostile work environment suit, and you tell very similar stories at work, why wouldn't it ever happen in your workplace? If that's what people should do? How do you know who's being made uncomfortable? 

And you admit to luring other people's cats in so you can kill them. That's fun.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I didn't know "coursing" meant "tearing to pieces". I don't think I'm the only one.
> 
> Now, if I should file a hostile work environment suit, and you tell very similar stories at work, why wouldn't it ever happen in your workplace? If that's what people should do?
> 
> And you admit to luring other people's cats in so you can kill them. That's fun.


I did not show that video at work....... I probably could have.... I work in the wholesale meat business.... But I am more careful than that...

I showed it here.... And you clicked twice to watch it.... This is a dog forum and you said you find many things I post appalling.... Yet you clicked on it....

I did not force you to watch it.... I posted a video of some good dogs doing exactly what they were bred to do..... A good number of people liked it..... 

The difference between here and at work is you or anyone else that would be offended or appalled by it was not forced to watch it... You had to willingly and actively click not once but TWICE..... The title of what it was on the post and video was VERY clear... At work is different.... You are a captive audience..... 




> And you admit to luring other people's cats in so you can kill them


Nothing fun about trapping cats.... Kind of sad really... I LIKE cats... and am actively looking to add a cat to my house right now.....

And no..... Not what I said at all.... I have not trapped peoples cats... You like to twist words.... I have trapped feral cats.... Invasive exotics that belong to no one.... 

And per state nuisance trapping protocol..... I do not kills feral cats.... I take them to Animal Control....
Cats are a tweener..... Not regulated by Wildlife Agency..... But AC does not want to bother with them....

Last cat job I did was in 2009.... My trapping partner took some cats to AC and they did not want to take them.... He asked them what he was supposed to do with them.... They said they did not care.... So he told them he was going to turn them out in their parking lot... They ended up taking them.


I find it amusing.... You speak of a willingness to commit a crime, yet you try to deflect upon me.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

You don't know who cats may belong to. Cats get loose sometimes. But I suppose it's the shelter's responsibility to check for microchips and stuff. 

I think most people would be willing to break the law to do what they think is morally right. A lot of us wouldn't be alive if not .


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> You don't know who cats may belong to. Cats get loose sometimes. But I suppose it's the shelter's responsibility to check for microchips and stuff.
> 
> I think most people would be willing to break the law to do what they think is morally right. A lot of us wouldn't be alive if not .


I have a chip reader... I can check that.... I see a collar.... Cat goes free.... 

The question is.... Are you willing to crime? You flip flop both ways.... You say you do not care and hope people know you are talking about them... .Then you describe yourself as a mouse.... Then say you would commit a crime.... Which the ramifications would be very significant...... I know many folks are willing to commit a criminal offense when and if they think they are right.... The question is... are you? Are you willing to lose your job, your dogs, your stuff.... over a feral cat?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm not sure it would be the same penalty as messing with a fur-bearer trap. They differentiate strongly between a domesticated animal and a wild animal. With that wording, messing with a trap set specifically for cats would not fall under that law.

""Domestic animal," any animal that through long association with man, has been bred to a degree which has resulted in genetic changes affecting the temperament, color, conformation, or other attributes of the species to an extent that makes it unique and different from wild individuals of its kind"

"Any person who steals, damages or destroys a trap of another *employed in the manner defined in subdivision 41-1-1(25)"*

41-1-1 (25) "Trapping," the taking or the attempting to take of any *wild animals* by means of setting or operating of any device, mechanism, or contraption that is designed, built, or made to close upon, hold fast, or otherwise capture a *wild animal or animals.*

http://legis.sd.gov/Statutes/Codified_Laws/DisplayStatute.aspx?Type=Statute&Statute=41-1-1

So far the town has not embarked on any cat-trapping endeavors. I suppose if it happens I'll have to find out what the laws are and make a decision. I'd like to think I could do it, who knows until it happens though.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I'm not sure it would be the same penalty as messing with a fur-bearer trap. They differentiate strongly between a domesticated animal and a wild animal. With that wording, messing with a trap set specifically for cats would not fall under that law.
> 
> ""Domestic animal," any animal that through long association with man, has been bred to a degree which has resulted in genetic changes affecting the temperament, color, conformation, or other attributes of the species to an extent that makes it unique and different from wild individuals of its kind"
> 
> ...


I doubt you would do it.... But the ways I am reading it.... Level one misdemeanor..... And who is to say what the trapper is targeting..... But are you willing to risk it? Even a successful defense of a misdemeanor one charge is going to cost you some serious bucks.... 25k or so... Along with the good chance you are suspended from work and not earning income...

And so you know...Many tappers now use game cameras on their sets... Especially now that they are so cheap... Aids in trap positioning, seeing what is coming and going, etc.... You are not likely to find the game camera and disable it without being caught in a photo..
But messing with a game camera is a whole new charge.... But if one is starting a criminal career.... They might as well go all the way...


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Mostly yes..... But anything that makes you uncomfortable can fall under hostile work environment....
> 
> I had to testify in a case that was classed as hostile work environment that involved discussion of religion....


Religious affiliation is a protected class so it also falls under that umbrella.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Willowy you keep mentioning animals being 'ripped apart'. Stop exaggerating. Nothing is being ripped apart. The video ends anyway so how do you know? No one wants to let their dogs actually tear animals limb from limb cause that would be a disgusting mess to clean up and if you wanted to use the fur or whatever, well now it's ruined. The animals are likely "ripped apart" also known as BUTCHERED afterwards by the people.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

I don't understand how people who are against torture and cruelty can object to killing cats. Cats are unusually cruel predators, especially domestic cats, who commonly kill for 'fun' rather than food, and deplete our back yards of small birds, lizards, etc. Coyotes, at least, don't play with their prey, they don't carry toxoplasmosis, and they don't crap in the sandbox.


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Horse. It is dead.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I'm good at sneaking around . I'd fall apart if I got caught though, lol. But that's the issue---if someone only traps on their own property they'll NEVER make a dent. You need to trap everywhere, get permission to trap on other people's land, put traps on public property. People usually agree to let you catch a cat on their property if you'll be benefiting that cat. If you're going to kill it, a lot of people won't help. That's why trap-and-kill policies end up not working. That and worker fatigue---killing cats every day will wear on any person with a shred of empathy. TNR volunteers are a lot more dedicated and it's easier to get public support.
> 
> Also, trapping cats, keeping them in the shelter for a stray hold, then putting them to sleep and disposing of the body costs more than TNR. For it to be cheaper and more efficient, the cats need to be killed on the spot. This makes even more people even more uncomfortable. And kills more pet cats, obviously.


Yeah, you wouldnt be doing that here, first because my family locks the gates to our property and we have signs posted, so to enter to do your righteous thing, you'd have to scale the gate ... and that by the laws in my state is criminal trespass and it is a serious offense ... but the law might not be what you should be worried about, since my state is an open carry state with strong "castle" laws.

Here is the link to the law on criminal trespass: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/Docs/PE/htm/PE.30.htm



Willowy said:


> I didn't know "coursing" meant "tearing to pieces". I don't think I'm the only one.
> 
> Now, if I should file a hostile work environment suit, and you tell very similar stories at work, why wouldn't it ever happen in your workplace? If that's what people should do? How do you know who's being made uncomfortable?
> 
> And you admit to luring other people's cats in so you can kill them. That's fun.


No, I knew what "coursing" meant, I have coursed prey with my JRT before, so yeah, I knew what it meant.



Willowy said:


> I'm not sure it would be the same penalty as messing with a fur-bearer trap. They differentiate strongly between a domesticated animal and a wild animal. With that wording, messing with a trap set specifically for cats would not fall under that law.
> 
> ""Domestic animal," any animal that through long association with man, has been bred to a degree which has resulted in genetic changes affecting the temperament, color, conformation, or other attributes of the species to an extent that makes it unique and different from wild individuals of its kind"
> 
> ...


I would make sure that you know what punishment you are going to receive before you go all radical AR and start sneaking onto people's property and messing with their stuff. I will say, that when I walk in my property, I walk packing heat, mostly for snakes, but I wouldnt hesitate to draw on a stranger if I saw them trespassing.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The death penalty for trespassing is generally frowned upon . But, no, of course I wouldn't wander around an inhabited rural property, that's not safe. I meant if there was some kind of trapping situation in town. And I would only trip the traps (theoretically), not wreck them or anything.

http://www.tiltingthescales.com/2014/08/28/trespassers-can-you-shoot-em/ (this is a pro shoot-'em site so I don't think you'll argue with it!)


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

FWIW, I think messing with other people's traps regardless of the situation is pretty rude and disrespectful - no matter your personal opinions on the matter. You're interfering with other people's property, plain and simple.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh, I meant to ask! Someone on the cat forum said the game camera she put up at her feral feeding site had the memory card stolen, and someone vandalized the feeding site. Would those game camera laws apply to her too? I get the feeling some people wish they wouldn't .


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> The death penalty for trespassing is generally frowned upon . But, no, of course I wouldn't wander around an inhabited rural property, that's not safe. I meant if there was some kind of trapping situation in town. And I would only trip the traps (theoretically), not wreck them or anything.
> 
> http://www.tiltingthescales.com/2014/08/28/trespassers-can-you-shoot-em/ (this is a pro shoot-'em site so I don't think you'll argue with it!)


Yes, by my castle laws, if I believe my life, or property is being threatened than I COULD (not saying I would want to) fire upon someone who is trespassing. If you were, I'd likely detain you until the police got there.



TGKvr said:


> FWIW, I think messing with other people's traps regardless of the situation is pretty rude and disrespectful - no matter your personal opinions on the matter. You're interfering with other people's property, plain and simple.


This!

If the trap (or camera) belongs to someone, then "messing" with it is against the law ... at least here, I dont know how it is in your state, since laws can vary state to state. But someone's private property in a public place is still private property.

@Willowy I can't believe how irrational you are, I really hope you arent like this IRL, because if you are ... dang.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> The death penalty for trespassing is generally frowned upon . But, no, of course I wouldn't wander around an inhabited rural property, that's not safe. I meant if there was some kind of trapping situation in town. And I would only trip the traps (theoretically), not wreck them or anything.
> 
> http://www.tiltingthescales.com/2014/08/28/trespassers-can-you-shoot-em/ (this is a pro shoot-'em site so I don't think you'll argue with it!)


Tripping the traps would fall under molesting and tampering and would STILL be a crime....



TGKvr said:


> FWIW, I think messing with other people's traps regardless of the situation is pretty rude and disrespectful - no matter your personal opinions on the matter. You're interfering with other people's property, plain and simple.


Not to mention..... IF the person is a hired trapper you are messing with his or her income....


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Oh, I meant to ask! Someone on the cat forum said the game camera she put up at her feral feeding site had the memory card stolen, and someone vandalized the feeding site. Would those game camera laws apply to her too? I get the feeling some people wish they wouldn't .


Damaging or stealing her camera would absolutely be wrong and illegal. In my area, so would feeding a feral cat colony, both due to leaving food out that could bait wildlife, and due to allowing loose domesticated animals. So both parties would be in the wrong and potentially incur fines and/or jail time.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Oh, I meant to ask! Someone on the cat forum said the game camera she put up at her feral feeding site had the memory card stolen, and someone vandalized the feeding site. Would those game camera laws apply to her too? I get the feeling some people wish they wouldn't .


IF the persons game camera was damaged, tampered with or broken... Sure... .that is a crime....

Tell them to put out two cameras... Second camera WELL hidden and pointed toward the first camera...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> Damaging or stealing her camera would absolutely be wrong and illegal. In my area, so would feeding a feral cat colony, both due to leaving food out that could bait wildlife, and due to allowing loose domesticated animals. So both parties would be in the wrong and potentially incur fines and/or jail time.


Here in most counties... In urban and suburban counties they turn a complete blind eye to the feeeding the feral cat thing... In some cases local governments get duped and pressured into even participating..... 

In other cases local government has passed ordinances allowing it. Even though state statute forbids it. Which is ironic because local law cannot supersede state law... 

Largely here.... Nothing is done.... the Wildlife agency says they are domestic animals and need to be dealt with by animal control... Animal control says since they are feral and living and breeding in the wild....They are wild and fall under the wildlife agency's jurisdiction.....

So largely no one does nothing. Until someone gets attacked and bit by a rabid cat... Which seems to happen a couple of times a year.... And seems to be increasing.... Then people get worked up over the health issue.... Debates and county commission meetings start happening..... Everyone gets all worked up.... Next thing you know people have emails threatening to kill them... Or worse kill their pets... In their inboxes... People are finding road killed cats on their driveway. Fun times....


I really think you would not have to trap all that much..... Just stop feeding the cats... They would scatter, life would get harder and they would not live as long... Nutrition would not be as good so kitten mortality would go up....


But we do not do that here.... Heck there are cases of caretakers of feral colonies trapping raccoons that come to the feeding stations. They largely get away with this because raccoons are unregulated in this state. It is not like they are putting a huge dent in the raccoon population... .We have plenty..... But it is not right to be trapping and displacing native wild animals to support a feral colony of cats.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

> Only complete psychos will be consistently enthusiastic about helping you kill cats, normal people will be indifferent or fight you and sabotage your efforts.


Oops. Guess I'm a psycho, then.

I'm too attached to animals to even want to go on a stinkin dove or turkey hunt. But there are exceptions for me. Mosquitoes, flies, scorpions, wasps, spiders in the house, crop pests, and feral cats...
If somebody was asking for help in taking down a cat colony on their property, I'd be all for it, pellet rifle in hand. The only animals I have seen "torn to pieces" are butchered animals meant for food and helpless native animals tortured to death by feral cats for their own amusement.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

BigLittle said:


> Oops. Guess I'm a psycho, then.
> 
> I'm too attached to animals to even want to go on a stinkin dove or turkey hunt. But there are exceptions for me. Mosquitoes, flies, scorpions, wasps, spiders in the house, crop pests, and feral cats...
> If somebody was asking for help in taking down a cat colony on their property, I'd be all for it, pellet rifle in hand. The only animals I have seen "torn to pieces" are butchered animals meant for food and helpless native animals tortured to death by feral cats for their own amusement.


Yep same, IMO feral cats or dogs are no different than feral hogs, they are just as damaging to the ecosystem.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I really think you would not have to trap all that much..... Just stop feeding the cats... They would scatter, life would get harder and they would not live as long... Nutrition would not be as good so kitten mortality would go up....


For my neck of the woods it's kind of an academic question anyway, as an outdoor cat is a dead cat walking. But yeah.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

parus said:


> For my neck of the woods it's kind of an academic question anyway, as an outdoor cat is a dead cat walking. But yeah.


I dont see many feral cats, though we do have a LOT of coyotes, so maybe that's why we dont? the problem we have is feral hogs, everything fears those things.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Slightly off topic, but I recently learned wire-snare coyote traps are now allowed to be used in my area, near sheep farms mostly. Its still a huge threat to other wildlife and escaped dogs too (and I think they are too big for feral cats). I think hunting them with greyhounds is a much more humane option than this.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Terriermon said:


> Slightly off topic, but I recently learned wire-snare coyote traps are now allowed to be used in my area, near sheep farms mostly. Its still a huge threat to other wildlife and escaped dogs too (and I think they are too big for feral cats). I think hunting them with greyhounds is a much more humane option than this.


It is more directed and more humane..... 

With a snare you catch anything that comes by...... The animal stays there and stuggles until you come back...

Then if you caught an animal you were not targeting.... You have two problems

1) How bad is it injured. Did the snare cut into its skin and flesh? Is it even in good enough shape to release? 

2) If you decide you are going to release it.... How do you go about doing that.... Lets say you caught a Bobcat, Otter, Raccoon, fox..... etc. You could be in a real pickle to let it go... It would be a challenge.. And you could end up hurt badly QUICK!

I have live released all of the above mentioned animals out of live traps. Foxes run away... But you never know what the others are going to do... I have had bobcats, otters and raccoons come out of live traps looking for a fight...

But taking a snare of their leg... It would be about as much fun as juggling chainsaws while walking barefoot on broken glass.... And you are going to be lucky if you get out of it without donating some of your skin and blood.... And then you are going to need post exposure rabies shots.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

Yeah it's pretty silly that things like this are legal at all. Google search reveals many incidents of pet dogs being killed in them. This is what is resorted to when everyone bitches about hunting "oooh don't shoot the coyotes, don't let your dogs get them!" Ok, lets set traps instead. This is why people should SUPPORT hunting of coyotes if you care about animals in general.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Terriermon said:


> Yeah it's pretty silly that things like this are legal at all. Google search reveals many incidents of pet dogs being killed in them. This is what is resorted to when everyone bitches about hunting "oooh don't shoot the coyotes, don't let your dogs get them!" Ok, lets set traps instead. This is why people should SUPPORT hunting of coyotes if you care about animals in general.


1080 baiting is even worse than traps . . . horrific death and great danger to non-target species. Illegal in the US but legal in Australia and NZ (requires special license, etc., but has been applied with large area aerial baiting problems in Oz).


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Snaring is horribly cruel. Torture. I can't believe it's legal anywhere.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

And those who fight against the TNR people are fighting against the wrong ones. TNR's aim is for their to be fewer cats. You may not like their methods but at least they're on the same page as you. The ones you should be fighting against are those who allow their cats to breed and those who dump their cats. The majority of feral cats were pets as kittens but got dumped/thrown out when they reached sexual maturity. When I lived in town, I could point to every feral and tell you whose pet he/she was when they were little.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> And those who fight against the TNR people are fighting against the wrong ones. TNR's aim is for their to be fewer cats. You may not like their methods but at least they're on the same page as you. The ones you should be fighting against are those who allow their cats to breed and those who dump their cats. The majority of feral cats were pets as kittens but got dumped/thrown out when they reached sexual maturity. When I lived in town, I could point to every feral and tell you whose pet he/she was when they were little.



Wrong.... At least until the TNR people STOP feeding them.... IF they just TNR'd... that would be one thing... But they actively feed the colonies...... And they never seem to catch all the cats... 

And no.... Most ferals are not dumped pets.... Ferals actively breed... Colonies grow larger all the time....


If TNR worked.... The feral cat issue in the US would be decreasing...


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah. I mean, I've seen dumped strays around the feral cat colony around my house. Thing is? They get picked up again or they die. They don't have what it takes to live out there, much less breed - though somtimest the little cute houses and food helps them along until someone takes pity on them and grabs them.

The feral cats are not strays. They're about as tame as a raccoon, and they breed just fine. Yeah, you can tnr them and in theory that sort of helps but cats also ROAM so you get ONE cat who is intact long enough to produce one litter, and well.

And yeah, like below thread, those cats live for more than a decade, even if they're fixed before the first litter (which is frankly rare). Slaughtering wildlife.


----------



## Terriermon (Mar 19, 2016)

TNR does not work fast enough either. A savvy neutered feral cat can live a long time when it is fed, and will just stalk things and hang around scaring stuff away. It's like you travel a long, long distance to go to your favourite bar to eat, drink, socialize and get it on. It's the best place to be, ever. You don't know anywhere else. You finally get there and there is a grizzly bear sitting in front of the door. Its not going anywhere and will happily kill you. So you just wasted all that energy and now have nowhere to go. That's what its like for migratory songbirds when cats move into their habitat. Unlike wild animals who are busy trying to survive, fed and fixed cats have nothing better to do with their time than hunt, maim and harass wildlife. Kinda like the people you hate right Willowy! lol


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

If the TNR groups really wanted to end feral cats.... They would quit being so close minded and seek out the help of woodsmen and experiences trappers..... Someone with the knowledge needed to catch all the cats.... Along with ceasing the feeding programs....

Speuter the cats.... Not feed so they scatter... MOST would be gong in a few years....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> If TNR worked.... The feral cat issue in the US would be decreasing...


If killing them worked, the feral cat issue in the US would be decreasing. There are more communities killing ferals than TNRing them, and that's been the standard for a long long time. TNR started exactly because the status quo wasn't working.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have a supposed TNR Colony in which the feeding station is on the property where my office is...... 

I have worked out of that office since January 2011....... I watch these cats Daily.... My office looks out on the window and the bait station is maybe ten yards away...

1) MOST of that cats that were there in 2011 are there now... Some are quite old and feeble. They would not make it a week on their own..

2) There are ALWAYS kittens around...

3) They actively trap... But they sure seem to be focused on raccoons.... When traps are baited with sweets they are targeting raccoons....


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> And those who fight against the TNR people are fighting against the wrong ones. TNR's aim is for their to be fewer cats. You may not like their methods but at least they're on the same page as you. The ones you should be fighting against are those who allow their cats to breed and those who dump their cats. The majority of feral cats were pets as kittens but got dumped/thrown out when they reached sexual maturity. When I lived in town, I could point to every feral and tell you whose pet he/she was when they were little.


The problem with TNR is the cat it still out there causing issues and being a burden on the local ecosystem.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> If killing them worked, the feral cat issue in the US would be decreasing. There are more communities killing ferals than TNRing them, and that's been the standard for a long long time. TNR started exactly because the status quo wasn't working.


But there was not a significant feral cat issue pre TNR........ 

I do not buy your more communities killing them than TNR...... Is is bogus....

The TNR mantra is exploding with the feral cat population.....


> A substantial number of cities and counties across the United States
> practice or promote Trap-Neuter-Return (TNR) as a method of
> animal control for feral cats. Alley Cat Allies’ survey of city and county
> ordinances and animal control practices revealed that more than 430
> ...


From here.
http://www.alleycat.org/document.doc?id=639

TNR is at an all time high.... And bears responsibility for the feral cat explosion...
And the population is exploding...


http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0907_040907_feralcats.html

This study written by two VERY pro TNR folks... Professor Wallace and Professor Levy.... I have butted heads with both....
Shows TNR to both be growing and a failure....


> Internationally, large populations of feral cats constitute an important and
> controversial issue due to their impact on cat overpopulation, animal welfare,
> public health, and the environment, and to disagreement about what are the
> best methods for their control. Trap-neuter-return (TNR) programs are an
> ...


https://vetmed-maddie.sites.medinfo.ufl.edu/files/2014/07/2006-Wallace-US-TNR-Clinics.pdf


Another study that shows TNR is growing..
https://www.animallaw.info/article/detailed-discussion-feral-cat-population-control


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I do not buy your more communities killing them than TNR...... Is is bogus....





> more than 430
> local governments incorporate TNR into their animal control policies
> and practices.


I think there are more than 430 communities in the US . 

I don't buy that there wasn't a significant feral population in the past. I remember a lot of free-roaming cats when I was a kid. . .OK, I wasn't in the US, but even when we came back to visit. I think nobody paid attention. 

And I would guess TNR is on the rise because people in charge have seen favorable results? Unless you think everyone who doesn't agree with you is just a mindless nitwit.

Also, not sure how that study shows that TNR is a failure. So most cats who come in to be spayed/neutered aren't spayed/neutered yet? You don't say! It also says that 75% of feral-born kittens die before sexual maturity, so a lot of the increase in numbers is not because of the ferals breeding. People dump cats. People don't frequently dump cats once they've spent money on having them spayed/neutered.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

This is anecdotal, but I think it's worth mentioning.

When we first moved into the previous house 6 years ago, there was no TNR. No feral cat colony to speak of. A few wildlife killings but not a whole lot. We had no cat problems on our property.

Fast forward 3 years. The neighbor on the corner finds a momma cat gave birth to kittens under their porch. They feed mamma and kittens, speuter all of them, plan to rehome them. One dies from a birth defect, another is given away to a piano teacher friend and becomes a housecat. So 2 TNR cats being fed. No big deal.

Then leave the food out, they leave it out for anyone and everyone. Cats start coming from every far corner of the neighborhood. Cats I've never even seen in the 3 years of living there. They TNR what they can catch, but they don't catch all of the cats. The following year, a new cat kicks out the resident stray who was afraid of dog smell. Our gardens immediately become litterboxes and now we are unsuccessfully trying to keep a cat out of the yard.

Doves that had been nesting in the eaves of our house start disappearing the next year. My mom chased a cat away from the nest several times. Eventually, we stopped having birds nest in the eave of the house. I start seeing more dead baby birds and lizards mutilated on the sidewalk. Feathers start making a regular appearance in the yard...

By the time we moved out we went from seeing a couple of cats around our street to seeing at least 6-10 cats...

TNR + Feeding = catsplosion. In my experience.

Here in my Phoenix neighborhood, there is no active TNR going on, not much cat feeding. I only see a couple of cats around our street and no mutilated bird/lizard corpses so far...only a few potty problems here and there...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I think there are more than 430 communities in the US .


Of course there are.... But the fact remains TNR is growing and the feral cat population is growing along side it...




> I don't buy that there wasn't a significant feral population in the past. I remember a lot of free-roaming cats when I was a kid. . .OK, I wasn't in the US, but even when we came back to visit. I think nobody paid attention.


Nobody paid attention because it was never a problem pre TNR in the 1990's/



> And I would guess TNR is on the rise because people in charge have seen favorable results? Unless you think everyone who doesn't agree with you is just a mindless nitwit.


TNR is and will remain a failure.... TNR is on the rise because of the animal rights movement....

Irreparable damage is being done by exploding feral colonies....




> So most cats who come in to be spayed/neutered aren't spayed/neutered yet? You don't say! It also says that 75% of feral-born kittens die before sexual maturity, so a lot of the increase in numbers is not because of the ferals breeding. People dump cats. People don't frequently dump cats once they've spent money on having them spayed/neutered.


MOST wild and feral species have VERY high mortality of offspring and young animals... That is why they have so many in a litter.....

You are flat wrong about the dumping of cats causing the increase in ferals... Dumped cats lack the ability to make it... a FEW make it... Most do not..... Feral colonies exist and continue to increase because of breeding that occurs among the feral cats...

http://www.tnrrealitycheck.com/basicInfo.asp


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Feeding cats... TNR or otherwise....does nothing to curb them from hunting...


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Feeding cats... TNR or otherwise....does nothing to curb them from hunting...


Yep ... We always fed out barn cats ... And they still hunted, too.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yep ... We always fed out barn cats ... And they still hunted, too.


yes, the entire back of cat food in a bowl which they ate out of , and still all the little butts and tails left behind..


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Here is a great article on TNR and why it does not work.

http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/03/31/sorry-cat-lovers-trap-neuter-release-flat-out-doesnt-work


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Still, I don't know why we are bothering ... You can't educate a closed mind.


----------

