# Herding is FUN!!!!



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

For those that didn't see the pictures in the Pic forum, Mogwai got to go herding for an early birthday present (She's a year old today!!!!)!

After the last flop, I was really excited to see Mirada turn on to them and ENJOY working. I learned some amazing (and important!!) things about her yesterday.

She is not as soft as I thought she was. At least not when in drive. She initially did what a lot of dogs do, and just kinda turned her brain off. In the process of the trainer trying to block Mirada from the sheep, Mirada got smacked on the nose with the guiding paddle. I totally thought she was going to shut down.

Not only did she NOT shut down, her brain rebooted and she actually started to work the sheep. She never spooked when the paddle got near her. She was not concerned she was going to get whacked again. In fact, while she respected the paddle a little more, there were a couple of times the trainer tried to block her direction...and Mirada just jumped over it x.x

She does NOT like to run counterclockwise (to the left). She worked the sheep for a very long time to the right. The trainer would try to block her and try to guide her to work the sheep to the left, and Mirada basically said "no". The trainer was successful a couple of times to guide Mirada into working to the left, and when she finally understood that was what the trainer wanted, she attempted to move the sheep counterclockwise with no guidance.

There was a VERY obvious difference in her control of the sheep when she switched directions. To the right, there were fewer "split offs" and she was able to keep them grouped together fairly well. There were no attempts to grip. When she worked them counterclockwise, there were MANY more splits, and many more attempts to grip.

The trainer pointed out to me that Mirada was actually being very respectful, and wasn't attempting to grip for no reason. When the sheep would split she would take a second, look both directions, move for the sheep that was closest, and try to grip it to put it back in line. She felt that was her only option to get things under control. The trainer also noted that it was an expression of frustration. The flock would not split off when she worked them to the right, but to the left, almost every attempt resulted in the sheep scattering.

The trainer also noted that to her credit, Mogwai never gave up working. She was frustrated, but she kept trying.

I cannot WAIT to pursue more lessons with her!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Very cool! Here's Alice's first exposure to stock at 14 weeks - wow. closing in on 9 years ago!:









I think most herding dogs are somewhat one sided. Alice could go clockwise forever (it's still her preference - also for directed jumping and freestyle spins) but it was so bad she would split stock if I tried sending her the other way. We had the holistic vet take a look at her, and turned out her pelvis was tilted, and it was almost impossible for her to turn the other way comfortably. She still has to get it adjusted every now and then.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That's awesome, Xeph. I know someone with a very soft BC that just had her first herding lesson. This dog is afraid of noise, people, other dogs, yet turned it on for real in the pen (they used goats). Lots of stuff going on in the background yet she knew her job, responded well to the flag and verbal corrections, and kept working. (I'm not saying Mirada is soft, just that it's really amazing how once you get a dog into drive, a whole different side of them can start to show!!)


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> (I'm not saying Mirada is soft, just that it's really amazing how once you get a dog into drive, a whole different side of them can start to show!!)


It's ok even if you were, because I've been sayin' it for months! I think in obedience she is, at least with Jon and I, but if you add someone new into the mix, it is no longer personal (for her), and so she is not so concerned. It's like she can't really disappoint us (Jon and I) and she has no real care for the new person, so she can work through the correction.

I think that's a very important (and useful) piece of knowledge to have!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Xeph said:


> It's ok even if you were, because I've been sayin' it for months! I think in obedience she is, at least with Jon and I, but if you add someone new into the mix, it is no longer personal (for her), and so she is not so concerned. It's like she can't really disappoint us (Jon and I) and she has no real care for the new person, so she can work through the correction.
> 
> I think that's a very important (and useful) piece of knowledge to have!


What methods are you using to teach obedience? I know that back when I was using more traditional training techniques, it was really easy to get my dogs "sour" on obedience skills, and often if I could find another sport that really tripped their trigger (herding, agility, in one case Schutzhund) the dog tended to really brighten up in obedience. Since I've changed how I train considerably, I've found I am more able to create dogs who actually have a good time doing obedience - well, maybe not as good a time as herding!) but less soft and worried.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I use some of the more traditional stuff in addition to the +R techniques. I really hate formal obedience to begin with though. I prefer things like agility and flyball which are more inherently rewarding to me, too.

I don't look at softness as "just a training thing" though. I look at it genetically speaking too, and genetically I do feel my bitch is a bit on the softer side.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I use some of the more traditional stuff in addition to the +R techniques. I really hate formal obedience to begin with though. I prefer things like agility and flyball which are more inherently rewarding to me, too.
> 
> I don't look at softness as "just a training thing" though. I look at it genetically speaking too, and genetically I do feel my bitch is a bit on the softer side.


Well, if you "really hate" doing something, I'm not sure how you convince your dog to love it. I'm one of those weird people who is really fascinated by formal obedience (at the moment, I'm more fascinated by a different sport, though, as I've done the obedience stuff to the point of proving to myself that I understand how to do it and can do it well.) While softness or hardness of a dog is always a genetic thing (and good to know if you are planning to breed) you've got to train the dog in front of you. If she is worried, I would look for ways to make it less concerning to her.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I feel formal obedience is too much about "because I said so" and for me there's no real merit. I don't like being around people that demand that *I* demand my dog gives me a perfectly straight sit. I just don't care that much. Neither of us will die if she sits out a bit. It's just too rigid for very little pay off for me.

My dogs have basic manners, and know how to sit and lie down and chill out, but I no longer feel pressed if my dog doesn't maintain a perfect heel with their head cranked up to my face.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I feel formal obedience is too much about "because I said so" and for me there's no real merit. I don't like being around people that demand that *I* demand my dog gives me a perfectly straight sit. I just don't care that much. Neither of us will die if she sits out a bit. It's just too rigid for very little pay off for me.
> 
> My dogs have basic manners, and know how to sit and lie down and chill out, but I no longer feel pressed if my dog doesn't maintain a perfect heel with their head cranked up to my face.


So, I'm confused . . . do you do Obedience or not? It sounded like you were training her in obedience. Really, it's all just behavior, and you can train it to any level that you want. Dogs can learn to love to be precise if it pays well (and if their humans are committed to being precise themselves). Or, you really don't have to have that precision to get obedience titles (if that trips your trigger - if it not, that's fine too. Lots of dog sports around these days). You only need a 170. And I assure you, most dogs who get a 170 (or even a 185) don't have perfect sits, perfect heel or cranked up position. My best heeling dog (ASCA OTCH/AKC UD/Nationally ranked/National Specialty HIT) hardly ever lost more than a point on heeling. But she heeled with her head forward and her eyes cut up toward me. Nobody ever took off points for it, because after all, she was in heel position. Cranked head and hackneyed gait isn't going to earn you extra points under a knowledgable judge. And the lack of it won't get you penalized.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> It sounded like you were training her in obedience.


I was, just not with any sort of consistency because I don't personally enjoy it. The only reason I was doing it at all was for the titles. I know I only need a 170, and I'd be happy with a 170. I just get annoyed with the people that feel I should want to do better. All I want is a green ribbon. Couldn't give a crap about the extras, lol.

Strauss finished his CD with scores in the 180's. I'm more than happy with that, and have never felt any inclination to have a 200 point dog. The Q is good enough. I'm "supposed" to want more than good enough, but I don't 

ETA: BTW 99% of my hatred of doing the formal stuff revolves around heel/heel position. Mirada does very well with the dumbbell work and what not, but teaching positions annoys me. I'm not a perfectionist.

Anyway, enough off topicness ^_^


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm the polar opposite.. I just physically can't set foot into the ring until I'm working perfectly. Which is why Marge and I might very well never make it to our CD.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The trainer was supposed to be unavailable this weekend for herding, but her plans changed xD! She posted the "database" on her yahoo! group to sign up for lessons, and the first two people to sign up were me and the woman that had her Aussies tested before Mirada! LOL!


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Xeph, that is SO awesome!!! What an incredible experience for both you and Mirada, I am so happy to hear it. 

Can you believe it? She's "only" an American show line and she'll make a better herder than my working line will ever be!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Lol, Eq xD! I really really want to work her on C Course, but if that isn't possible, we'll do what we can  I'm going to take her to the advanced levels if she can do it


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