# Stubborn Saint Bernard Puppy



## discin (Mar 22, 2011)

First I want to say I read a little in the forums before posting and I'm NOT posting another potty thread. However, that IS part of the problem.

I've owned dogs before (yes, I know this is a "First Time Dog Owner" forum but with this dog I feel like a first time dog owner), but I've never had one as stubborn as this. Maybe I have been lucky and my new puppy isn't anything out of the ordinary.

My boyfriend and I bought a Saint Bernard puppy 3-1/2 weeks ago and she's now 10-1/2 weeks old. I read up on the breed before we got her and I understand that Saint Bernards are typically a little more difficult to train and require more patience than many other breeds.

She will not listen. She just won't. Not because she doesn't know what we're telling her to do, she just simply doesn't want to listen. At first I thought maybe she just wasn't very intelligent... but she is. When I feed her, I make her sit and stay (stay for about 5-10 seconds) before saying, "good girl, go get it" at which time she devours her dinner. She learned "stay" in a matter of 3 feedings. She is smart. However, when we tell her to do something that we KNOW she knows how to do, she just won't do it.

We tell her to lay down and she won't. We tell her to sit and she won't, not unless it's feeding time. We've been trying to teach her to "shake" for a week now. Even treats don't work. We've tried to give her morsels of her food as a reward (since feeding time works) and that's not good enough for her either. We obviously can't give her a full feeding every time we want her to learn a new command. Before anyone jumps all over me, I know she's just a puppy and I know puppies often need to be told several times before listening. It's not a matter of telling her several times. I could tell her till I'm blue in the face and she still won't do what she is told, even though she is well aware of what I'm telling her to do.

As far as the "potty-stubborness" is concerned... she is house-trained in the sense that she knows she is supposed to go outside. Most of the time she cries when she needs to go out, or paces near the door. And she knows the routine. She knows when I say, "go outside, go potty?" and put on my coat and shoes, that it's time to go out. A few days ago, I was literally opening the door and she stood there, next to the door, and peed while staring at me. She did the same to my boyfriend twice, once yesterday and once this morning. I know it's not a matter of bladder control... I tested that theory. She was laying on the bed with me yesterday morning and started whining. I waited 5 minutes before getting up to let her out and she did not go (she won't go on our bed). If she can hold it for 5 minutes, I'm sure she can hold it for 2 seconds while we open the door.

It's also not a matter of attention. She gets a lot of attention. My boyfriend and I work different shifts so she is only home alone for 2-3 hours a day during the week. While we are home we play with her, cuddle with her, and pet her. She sometimes sleeps in bed with us. (We'll still allow this when she is full-grown so it's not a habit we'll have to break later on.) She is spoiled.

This is my fourth dog. The first was a purebred Doberman who suffered from severe Wobblers Disease and I had to put him down when he was 6. The second was a Labrador/Golden mix who was diagnosed with untreatable Lymphoma when he was 4. The third is my purebred Lab who is now 8-1/2 years old. (I share custody of my Lab with my ex, so jealousy is not an issue. We go back and forth month to month with our Lab and he has been with the ex since my boyfriend and I got our puppy. The puppy may be aware of the Lab's existence - smells, etc. - but is likely unaware that another dog actually lives in the house part-time.) My point is that I'm an experienced dog owner, yet I'm completely clueless as to how to reward my new puppy. Nothing that has worked with my previous dogs has worked with her.

I make a big deal out of her going potty outside. When she actually DOES obey a command, I make a big deal out of that too. Any dog I've ever had... any dog I've ever MET... has been eager to please, even as puppies. She just doesn't seem to be. She doesn't seem to care if I'm happy with her behavior or not.

So my questions are these: How can I reward her for "being good" if she doesn't seem to care if I care that she's being good? What kind of treats can I give her if store-bought dog treats, morsels of her everyday food, cheese, and lunchmeat chicken aren't doing the trick? What can I do to make her less stubborn? What can I do to turn her into the well-behaved dog I know she can be?


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

Honestly, nothing you've described sounds like 'stubborn' to me. In fact, it sounds like she's doing amazing. To understand so much at such a very young age is GREAT. She's awfully young still. I say, be patient. And pictures please  There arent many things cuter than a SB puppy!


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

From what you describe, she sounds like a normal Saint puppy and that she's doing VERY well (good job!). 3 meals to have her waiting for her food, well done! To get that well behaved dog, be consistent. Food may not be her "currency", try toys, petting or playtime. You're only limited by your own creativity.

As far as peeing right in front of the door. She's still very young. Part of the cue that she's going out to potty is you putting shoes/coat on and opening the door. She's missed the exact location of where she was supposed to potty, but she nailed the cue. Unless you put on your shoes & coat and did everything else as if you were taking her out (I dont recommend this unless you are taking her out!), you didnt give her the signals that it was time to go. 

Take TONS of pictures while she's little. I love looking back at my boys baby pictures, Saint puppies are so cute!


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I agree! She sounds great!
As far as the commands you're asking her to perform, are you absolutely sure you've proofed them enough? You say you tell her "sit" or "lay down" and she doesn't listen. To me it sounds like she doesn't know those commands well enough to perform them consistently. I'm just asking because you say you ask her to do those commands, but you don't say what you've done to teach those commands.
Sometimes it helps to only work on ONE command until she can do it so well that she could do it in her sleep!  THEN, add something new.

As for the potty problem: at 10 1/2 weeks she is such a baby! She won't gain full PHYSICAL control of her bladder and bowels, AND the surrounding muscles until 6 months of age, give or take. That's just a PHYSICAL fact. It's not being stubborn. 
At this age, sometimes she doesn't even get signals from her body telling her she has to go, it seems to happen without warning for her.

As far as her peeing in front of the door, and then you testing her ability to hold it by making her wait 5 minutes next time, well, she's like a human toddler. Sometimes, they don't realize they need to go until it's too late, and they pee their pants. BUT, sometimes, they may know ahead of time, and be able to tell mommy in enough time to get to the toilet. So, maybe, when she pees in front of the door, she just doesn't stop playing or whatever she's doing in time to be able to hold it. But, other times, she knows in enough time to be able to tell you, and hold it a bit. 

I would definitely do what you're doing, it sounds like you have a good plan. Just maybe be a bit more patient with her, especially in the potty area, as at her age, some of the accidents are just a physical thing. You might try taking her out every 35-45 minutes, just to get her out more often. The more often you are out with her, the more likely you are to have her out when she actually has to go!  And, when you are inside with her, make sure you watch her closely, so she doesn't even have the CHANCE to go potty inside. It's like you're stalking her, always trying to get her out in time!


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## discin (Mar 22, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback. It's good to hear she's doing well for her age. Maybe I'm just thinking back on training my Lab too much. He had an iron bladder at a very young age, and the accidents were limited to once or twice a week by the time he was 8 or 9 weeks old, rather than once or twice a day. All dogs are different and I need to stop gauging her performance based on his progress when he was young.

Labmom: I will add some pictures to this post 

LuvMyAngels: She loves playtime. That sounds like a good reward to try, thanks for the suggestion. And we're taking A LOT of pics, I feel like we've gone crazy with the camera! lol

doxiemommy: I'm pretty sure she knows the commands... or at least she seems to know them incredibly well at feeding time. She seems to conveniently "forget" the commands if a feeding isn't involved. I will try concentrating on just one at a time till she seems to know them better. As far as how we taught her the commands... treats worked for like the first week. She learned "sit" and "lay down" during that time. Now that treats aren't enough of a reward, she no longer listens and doesn't pick up on new commands.

Here are a few pics of her...


First night home.


Big bone.


Squeaky bowling pin.


My blue-eyed girl.



I feel unfair leaving my Lab out, so here are a couple of him...

Christmas present, the squeaky duck.


Such a good boy.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

LuvMyAngels said:


> From what you describe, she sounds like a normal Saint puppy and that she's doing VERY well (good job!). 3 meals to have her waiting for her food, well done! To get that well behaved dog, be consistent. Food may not be her "currency", try toys, petting or playtime. You're only limited by your own creativity.
> 
> As far as peeing right in front of the door. She's still very young. Part of the cue that she's going out to potty is you putting shoes/coat on and opening the door. She's missed the exact location of where she was supposed to potty, but she nailed the cue. Unless you put on your shoes & coat and did everything else as if you were taking her out (I dont recommend this unless you are taking her out!), you didnt give her the signals that it was time to go.
> 
> Take TONS of pictures while she's little. I love looking back at my boys baby pictures, Saint puppies are so cute!


Luvmyangels you know that your typo of the word 'normal' at the beginning of your post is actually my real name LMBO. Jo k ows lots of cute commands & always seems to want to know more, she knows sit, down, & how to give her paw. We are currently learning roll over.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

She's pretty! Is she a mix? I didn't know Saint Bernards could have blue eyes. And she's a smooth coat?


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## troglodytezzz (Oct 19, 2010)

Very cute! I also think that you are doing great.

Remember that dogs are very poor generalists. Sitting at feeding time at the place where she is getting her food isn't the same as sitting in the next room 5 minutes later. Maybe before you feed her you can take a few kibbles out of her bowl and lure sits in different parts of the room you are in and then in other rooms. Feeding in other rooms and even outside can help here too.


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## Labmom4 (Feb 1, 2011)

AAWWW! Thanks for the pictures  Shes adorable! I just want to squueze her  Your lab is very pretty too.


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Very adorable!


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## discin (Mar 22, 2011)

Willowy said:


> She's pretty! Is she a mix? I didn't know Saint Bernards could have blue eyes. And she's a smooth coat?


Thank you! She is a mix, mostly Saint Bernard. I did read somewhere (I want to say Wikipedia) that Saints can have blue eyes. I also read on other sites that light eyes are considered a flaw... but I don't see it that way, I think her eyes are beautiful. The guy I bought her from said he's not sure what she's mixed with, but he thinks it may be Lab or Husky. Husky would explain the blue eyes, but I don't see Husky anywhere else in her. I don't have an opinion yet on what I think she's mixed with. And yes, she's a smooth coat. I've never had a dog with long hair, it seems like it would be so hard to take care of so I just stick to short-haired dogs 



troglodytezzz said:


> Very cute! I also think that you are doing great.
> 
> Remember that dogs are very poor generalists. Sitting at feeding time at the place where she is getting her food isn't the same as sitting in the next room 5 minutes later. Maybe before you feed her you can take a few kibbles out of her bowl and lure sits in different parts of the room you are in and then in other rooms. Feeding in other rooms and even outside can help here too.


Thanks for the suggestion, I will try this 



Labmom4 said:


> AAWWW! Thanks for the pictures  Shes adorable! I just want to squueze her  Your lab is very pretty too.





doxiemommy said:


> Very adorable!


Thank you!


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

You need to teach the behavior before adding the verbal cue. St. Bernards do not speak English. You could try Italian or German. That would not work either, but you could try it.



> So my questions are these: How can I reward her for "being good" if she doesn't seem to care if I care that she's being good? What kind of treats can I give her if store-bought dog treats, morsels of her everyday food, cheese, and lunchmeat chicken aren't doing the trick? What can I do to make her less stubborn? What can I do to turn her into the well-behaved dog I know she can be?


Dogs are not stubborn or whatever the opposite of stubborn is. Some are quicker than others to catch on what behaviors get good results from you. You need to make it easier for the dog to figure out how to manipulate you.

Timing is everything. A clicker or other "marker" sound helps a lot. I just make a click with my tongue and gums. The click means, "THAT'S IT. That precise thing you did an instant before the click is what is going to earn you a treat right now." Actually, it just means, "Treat coming," but the effect is as though... 

For treats, use whatever she likes. Maybe a short game of tug. Or use food treats when she is hungry.

I recommend some dog-training training. kikopup.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

She's beautiful. What a great face she has! Your labby is very nice looking too!
Okay.
Here's the deal:
She is NOT your other dogs. (this is a common issue, you know "but my old dog learned xyz immediately!). Comparing the ease of training a previous pet to a new one is not always a fair comparison. I also firmly believe that if people had video proof of their previous dogs as puppies that a LOT of the behaviours would be very similar, but time tends to skew our memories somewhat, especially as the puppy turned into a well behaved dog over the years.

Trog was right about generalization. She cannot possibly know that sit at the dinner bowl means sit in the livingroom, the bedroom, outside etc etc. Dogs are great discriminators (bowl is full, I sit and wait) but not great generalizers (sit means sit wherever I am) and this takes not "several" times teaching/practicing but HUNDREDS of repetitions while gradually introducing distractions, distance, duration and new places. Each different situation is "all new" for puppy. Eventually the ability to generalize becomes better and new behaviours are easier to transfer..but she's 10 weeks old and has barely "learned to learn". 

It's not about stubborn. It's about your perceptions about what she knows that is the problem here. I don't mean to be cranky about it, but we as dog owners sometimes fail to realize that they are learning a whole different language and learning to mute behaviours that are totally normal for dogs (biting, chewing, barking, voiding anywhere that is not sleep or food related, jumping up, appeasement behaviours) and replace them with ones that are humancentric. You are working with biology and genetics here, so expecting a puppy to "know" anything that is not intuitive/instinctive behaviour because they've done it a few times successfully is like expecting a toddler whe speaks incomplete sentences to write a dissertation. As for peeing in front of your door like that...she is physically immature, the need to go is the NEED to go and sometimes (well,most of the time) she is going to get little or no "sense" that she is going to pee and even if she does get some warning, the lag time is short. You assumed that the one time you waited (to test her) she succeeded..well that's just luck of the draw, not actual proof she can hold it. This sort of testing is risky, because it sets her up to fail and training a puppy should be all about setting them up to succeed! This is important not only for her learning, but for YOU. If you test her too much and consistently fail then there is judgement..of yourself, of the puppy, of the whole relationship. 

Slightly off topic, bear with me and please know that this is a generalized rant sparked by some wording in your post...so it's not "aimed" at you, but at dog owners in general.

I actually have a bit of concern about the 'breed descriptions' when it comes to dogs. Yes, there are innate differences depending on the breed's working history and genetics. Yes, we need to understand that there may be different motivational factors that come into play and motivating a guardian breed may be different than motivating a lapdog type breed...but dogs are still dogs. Animals all learn the same way, but are all individuals. Dogs have a communication language of their own that crosses breed boundaries, naming a dog behaviour as "stubborn" and that it's normal because the breed description says so is a disadvantage in many ways. Some people (not you, I'm generalizing here for sake of discussion) will write off teaching a dog something because that breed "cannot, doesn't like, or cannot learn" xyz..others will take a "stubborn" or "dominant" breed description as an excuse to use harsher methods of training or viewing the dog's behaviour as constant disrespect. This mindset is harmful for all involved. 

All I ask of dog owners is that you look at the dog before you. As an individual that depends on you for everything. Give him the benefit of the doubt and TEACH him what you want consistently, patiently and with a purpose to SUCCEED.


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