# What are your thoughts on shock collar training?



## anubisthegermanhusky (Nov 18, 2019)

I started training my german/husky, Anubis, for about 5 months now as it was recommended by a dog trainer a while ago. I placed him on a training and board program while I was away for 2 weeks and on the second week they began training him with the shock collar. For me personally it was worked as long as I have been using it in a non-hurtful manner for my pup but I would like to know what you guys think about it, or if you have ever tried it?


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

Nope, not for me. Shock collars work by causing discomfort, is the long and short of it - otherwise the correction would not reduce the 'bad' behavior. I, personally, don't want a relationship with my dog where I'm causing them deliberate discomfort on a regular basis. I feel this way about physical corrections in general; I've found it much more straightforward and effective to teach my dogs what I want them to do rather than punishing them when they do something I don't want.

They're also unforgiving tools. If you have poor timing or are inexperienced, or even if your dog is just particularly sensitive, it's too easy to attach negative emotional states to the wrong stimulus. Say your dog sees another dog, gets excited, and pulls. You correct for the pulling, but in the dog's mind, they now think other dogs cause the discomfort. Next time they react more strongly, pulling and barking to get the other dog to go away so the uncomfortable thing doesn't happen again. It unfortunately happens a lot with poorly applied corrective training measures.

I do believe that there are people out there who can and do use them in a humane and effective fashion. I'm not going to come here and claim that anyone who uses one is abusive or evil or anything silly like that. But the risk/benefit tradeoff for me just isn't worth it. I have limited experience, but I've yet to come across a situation with my dogs where I've felt a physical correction was more appropriate or effective than a less invasive training technique. One of those choices everyone has to make for themselves, I suppose.

Well, let me amend that. There are a very few situations I'd consider using one, but they're literally life or death. Think training snake avoidance when you live in an area with venomous snakes coming onto your property, or training a hunting dog to leave livestock alone when an indiscretion could get them shot by a farmer. Like I said, I haven't had to make that choice for my dogs yet, but that's where I'd consider it.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

Put the collar on yourself, give yourself a shock, and see if you still think it can be used in a "non-hurtful" way. (Yes, I did it and know the answer.)

My own opinion is that they may occasionally be necessary for an older, hard-headed dog from a tough breed, but none of my dogs from tough breeds has ever or will ever get to that point, and I bet dedicated trainers never need them.

If I ever put my dog in 2-week training and board program, and they used a shock collar without my explicit, in-writing permission (which they wouldn't get), I'd be raising holy he!!, reporting them to every authority I could and giving them awful reviews on every review site I could, but that's me.

You need a trainer who can show you how to train and deal with your own dog. If you can't do that, training done by someone else isn't going to hold up. A dog that obeys Person A is perfectly capable of realizing Person B is a wuss and ignoring Person B. Of course if Person B has been given a magic button that can case pain....


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## LeoRose (Aug 20, 2015)

Not repeatable in polite company.

On the other hand, other people routinely use it, and wouldn't train any other way.

There are some situations where if can be a decent solution, but only when the dog has already been trained, and the e-collar is there just to back up that training.


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## Knute (Aug 10, 2019)

NO WAY in H377!!!!!

Find another training facility. Pull your dog out of that immediately and throw away the shock collar.

Too many studies have confirmed that adversive training has a long lasting negative impact.

The first most crucial step in training, IMHO, is earning the dog's trust. Then you can begin bonding with the dog and learning how to train that specific individual dog. What technique works for my dog, may not work for your dog. A technique that works for a particular breed may not work on another breed. You need to find the learning key for your dog.

How do you earn trust with a steady supply of pain???? 

Would you apply a shock collar to your child to get them to learn or obey???? Dogs have the cognitive level of a 2-5 year old child.

I have similar admonition for idiots who strike or beat the dog. Sorry, this is a ZERO tolerance item for me. There is no need for such action.


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## Patchy & Sue (Jul 3, 2019)

anubisthegermanhusky said:


> I started training my german/husky, Anubis, for about 5 months now as it was recommended by a dog trainer a while ago. I placed him on a training and board program while I was away for 2 weeks and on the second week they began training him with the shock collar. For me personally it was worked as long as I have been using it in a non-hurtful manner for my pup but I would like to know what you guys think about it, or if you have ever tried it?


Shock Collars are illegal in Australia for a reason, I wouldn't listen to this trainer, look for a new trainer who rewards good behaviour & doesn't punish the dog, the dog may end up suffering with anxieties & be useless in the end...


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## mustluvdogs66 (Mar 30, 2017)

I’m sorry someone gave you such poor advice! However, You’ve got your answers above. I agree with everyone. You could not pay me enough to use a shock collar on my dogs, ever. There are too many long term side effects that can damage the dog. Dogs love us unconditionally and love to please. There’s no need to use aversive techniques.
Putting the collar on yourself still isn’t the same. Try wearing it and having someone else shock you when you’re not expecting it. That’s more accurate.
They are also banned in most of Europe.
Also what happens if the dog is off the collar or the batteries die - did they show you how to actually train the dog or just shock the dog?
Read this from AVSAB for a more in depth explanation of why you shouldn’t be using these methods or collars.


https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Punishment_Position_Statement-download_-_10-6-14.pdf


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## Knute (Aug 10, 2019)

66. Nice article. It really clarifies the use of Negative Punishment with Positive Reinforcement. It also clarifies the adverse and the potential impact on the pet.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Why NO Choke Chains or Prong Collars


"AVSAB’s position is that punishment (e.g. CHOKE CHAINS, PINCH COLLARS, AND ELECTRIC COLLARS) should not be used as a first-line or early use treatment for behavior problems." -...



angelpawstherapy.org


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

A shock collar should only be used when the dog PERFECTLY understands what is expected of them in every single situation. It takes more than 5 months for a dog to perfectly understand any sort of training, really. Personally, I don't think the average dog owner needs to or knows how to properly use a shock collar without negative side effects. There's usually a hundred other ways to teach the dog what is expected of them without resorting to the shock collar or discomfort, and the positive reinforcement methods typically improve your relationship with your dog rather than make him fear you.

I think there are some situations where a shock collar is warranted, but you better make darn sure you know what you're doing and know the dog in front of you. Your corrections should be perfectly timed, and incredibly clear. 

For normal, everyday dog training I really don't think a shock collar is necessary, and I would run far away from any trainer who used a shock collar for basic obedience training. It indicates they really don't have many tools in their tool box.


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## Knute (Aug 10, 2019)

Lillith.....a question based on your statement. "......,but you better make darn sure you know what you're doing....."

How would a person know?

I am not able to know what I don't know. Because if I knew, then I would already know.......

it is circular thinking.

Either way....Shock collar has ZERO tolerance in my world for any training.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

up selling at it's worse... guess you need the extra factory coating on your car too.. I've been around dogs,done my own dogs and I can fill out a form and answers questions on a piece of paper and get a dog trainer certificate.. Doesn't make me a real trainer the best trainer for you to entrust your dog with me when your not there to see what I am doing to them. Those are nightmare stories..... Dog trainers don't need shock collars..... Best trainers are the ones that value you training your dog with their guidance...


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

I use a Tri-tronics Pro 500 on my dog and I am soon to get a E Collar Technologies Pro 900 Double box. I have used an e collar to train for a number of years. That said, *the E Collar is not a tool for every dog or every handler and every situation. *

Here is what you need to know. First of all, most people use it wrong. Most trainers not in Gun dogs or high level driven competition dogs don't know how to use it. Be aware of this. Also understand that the simulation frequency (mgHZ) is different between different brands of e collar and the choice of e collar needs to be paired with the dog's temperament. For my last dog the Tritronics was best. I have tried the E Collar I am soon to get and my dog is much more responsive to it and it actually increases his drive. My last dog was better paired with the Tritronics stim. If I could describe the difference, one is like a slow poke with a finger (Tritronics) the other is more like a buzz. In a dog that is already very driven and UP all the time, the poke is better than the buzz. For the dog that is is less on tip of toes all the time the buzz is better. That is the best way I can describe it in a short paragraph. NEITHER COLLAR SHOULD BE USED IN A MANNER THAT CAUSES THE DOG TO VOCALAIZE. EVER. 

The E collar is impersonal. It can be much clearer than other corrections. Collar corrections are very personal and that can mess with your relationship with the dog. Corrections are not an immediate "go to" in training. Some dogs need no more correction than you clearing your throat. Both temperament and drive level as well as educational level in the dog determine the correction needed IF AT ALL. 

So, before you ever use ANY form of correction the dog should be well trained. This is a long process. It means proofing the training in at least 20 new places. It means training every other day. *It means that no matter where you are (inside at home, in your back yard or anywhere else) the dog UNDERSTANDS your cue.* Period. BEFORE your correct in ANY manner at all. 

Most pet dogs are not High Drive dogs. Most are not worked IN drive. Most DO NOT UNDERSTAND the cue outside of their home and back yard. These dogs are not up for correction. This is a key concept regardless of what you are training. * Most pet dogs do not need an e collar* unless they do a lot of off leash walking in wild areas and they have been trained to match the stim with recall. Most of these dogs rarely get a stim.. because they have been trained but the handler has it should a deer pop up etc. 

Now, in IGP (formerly Schutzhund and then IPO) the dogs are high drive. When a dog is in HIGH DRIVE and they THOROUGHLY understand what is being cued, they sometimes need a correction to keep them on point and responsive to verbal cues. My current dog is coming 3 in March. He just started getting E collar stims this fall. Honestly? Very little and very low setting during obedience. During protection when his drive is different he MIGHT need one stim (a bit higher than during obedience) to remind him but most of the time NOT. The collar is on more as a "better to have and not need than to need and not have." 

I find that the e collar has helped to make things much more clear to* my* dog. I ask to "out" the ball and he knows what that means but sometimes his drive is so high.. and he likes the ball sooooo much.. that "out" needs a very low level stim (the dog should NEVER EVER YELP when stimmed) to remind him that yes, he must still out the ball. IF he must be stimmed and he outs, he IMMEDIATELY gets the ball back. Then the next Out without a stim he AGAIN IMMEDIATELY gets the ball back. The object is to teach him that he does not always LOSE the prize when he "outs" it. The object is to NOT NEED the stim. This is in a dog that has been taught out with the trade game since he was 8 weeks old. He is now coming 3 years.

Same with the decoy. He comes into the blind and gets dirty (means he bites when the decoy is neutral and the dog should just bark and that is actually an instinct behavior because the prey is still and neutral) (after being taught correct distance using a platform and a long line) he will get a stim.. and the minute he barks clean the decoy rewards with a bite and slipping the sleeve. Some dogs (mine) simply never get dirty in the blind. Others don't "out" when on the decoy and the handler says "Out." A stim is far kinder and clearer with less conflict than the old school method of the handler or decoy choking the dog off! (Of course there are a LOT of reasons why a dog won't "out" on a decoy but that is not this discussion) (my dog outs.. has never needed a reminder).

So there is what I think about E collars and some basics on how I use them. They are NOT an every day tool (even if my current dog wears it every day).

I get maligned on this forum for talking about e collars and for using them. I do not use them on every dog and not every dog needs an e collar. 

Most non sport dog people I see using an e Collar use them incorrectly. 

Most people who have never used them do not understand anything about them but "think they know." If they have seen them used they probably saw them used incorrectly.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

Knute said:


> Lillith.....a question based on your statement. "......,but you better make darn sure you know what you're doing....."
> 
> How would a person know?
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure most people don't know what they're doing when they resort to a shock collar. And those who do most likely only use it when all other options are exhausted, or they are proofing something important like recall, where a dog ignoring the command may result in injury.

But if you're thinking a shock collar is a good training option for your dog getting into garbage or being exuberant around stimulus, you probably don't know what you're doing.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

Lillith said:


> I'm pretty sure most people don't know what they're doing when they resort to a shock collar. And those who do most likely only use it when all other options are exhausted, or they are proofing something important like recall, where a dog ignoring the command may result in injury.
> 
> But if you're thinking a shock collar is a good training option for your dog getting into garbage or being exuberant around stimulus, you probably don't know what you're doing.


THIS. Because first and foremost MOST do not understand DRIVES in a dog and then MOST do not understand the DRIVE IN THE DOG IN FRONT OF THEM. 

I know AKC Obedience handlers who have used shock collars to _reduce drive._ You know what happens then in a drivey dog? The drive is NOT reduced.. it simply is suppressed and it will come out in another manner that is a lot worse than simple exuberance. 

The trick is to understand DRIVE and learn to USE DRIVE to get results. Most people with pets (and often a LOT of people in AKC Obedience) don't want drive because drive causes them to need to WORK with the dog. They want to suppress drive.. and that is a mess. Agility trainers are better.. they will channel drive into work and, if they are clear, get results. 

If all you want the e collar for is to eliminate behavior and exuberence because you cannot come up with a better way to set the dog up for success I strongly suggest the dog be returned to the shelter or previous owner and you go get a stuffed toy dog at the local store.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

When you are training a pet, a companion dog, and you use a shock collar, aversive methods, or positive punishment, then you may reduce the trust in your relationship. You may improve obedience, but you may also decrease confidence, independence, and trust. It is difficult to see the damage in the relationship.

But you may be able to compare a non-aversely trained dog to a shock collar trained dog and see a happier dog with more personality and more trust, especially with the owner. You may not notice what's missing in the shock collar trained family pet, except by comparison.

I like the way that 3GSD4IPO and Lillith made the distinctions for use AND avoidance of the use for shock collars!


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

hanksimon said:


> When you are training a pet, a companion dog, and you use a shock collar, aversive methods, or positive punishment, then you may reduce the trust in your relationship. You may improve obedience, but you may also decrease confidence, independence, and trust. It is difficult to see the damage in the relationship.
> 
> But you may be able to compare a non-aversely trained dog to a shock collar trained dog and see a happier dog with more personality and more trust, especially with the owner. You may not notice what's missing in the shock collar trained family pet, except by comparison.
> 
> I like the way that 3GSD4IPO and Lillith made the distinctions for use AND avoidance of the use for shock collars!


I will add that there are times when pet dogs need correction. A simple correction can make things much more clear for the dog. EVERY correction needs to be immediately followed with a reward system that is 3 times "bigger" than the correction. 

Again we go back to clarity. Dogs LIKE black and white and they like boundaries that we set that are consistent and CLEAR. IF a correction is delivered and must be repeated more then twice then it is ineffective. This means the dog either does not understand what was asked OR the correction level or timing was incorrect. 

Positive punishment and aversives improperly delivered (bad timing or to a dog that does NOT understand) can damage your relationship with your dog. Being unclear can do the same thing. Corrections delivered in the right circumstance can actually improve your relationship with the dog if they are delivered fairly and are clear and allow the dog to get what he wants. 

IOW's as an example you have trained the dog to focus on you in heeling. You have a competition focused heel in numerous places. But the dog finds he can sometimes break focus and look around. At first you reward when he looks back at you after breaking focus.. but eventually the dog learns that breaking focus and looking back he gets what he wants (reward). His break in focus becomes more frequent as it is how he gets what he wants (reward upon bringing focus back to you). THIS is where you add the correction. A low stim when he looks away and STILL reward when he looks back. The stim correction lets him know that looking away is unacceptable. After a couple of correction stims he stops looking away.. and then you can reward for duration heeling at any point (I use trial markers.. such as always rewarding after the second gun shot, always after the group and so forth which is pattern training) (I also reward randomly for good work such as a snappy movement of the hind end doing a sharp left turn). The dog learns the reward comes at certain times but can come also come at any time.. so paying attention and being focused he gets what he wants (the reward). 

Training dogs is NOT hard. We make it hard by trying to verbalize what we want and expecting dogs to act like kids. Dogs are non verbal beings and must be trained a LOT and in different places/settings and they are not kids. If we paid more attention to the dog and its dog like behavior and shut out mouths and allowed our dogs to BE dogs they would be much happier.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

3GSD4IPO said:


> IOW's as an example you have trained the dog to focus on you in heeling. You have a competition focused heel in numerous places. But the dog finds he can sometimes break focus and look around. At first you reward when he looks back at you after breaking focus.. but eventually the dog learns that breaking focus and looking back he gets what he wants (reward). His break in focus becomes more frequent as it is how he gets what he wants (reward upon bringing focus back to you). THIS is where you add the correction. A low stim when he looks away and STILL reward when he looks back. The stim correction lets him know that looking away is unacceptable. After a couple of correction stims he stops looking away.. and then you can reward for duration heeling at any point (I use trial markers.. such as always rewarding after the second gun shot, always after the group and so forth which is pattern training) (I also reward randomly for good work such as a snappy movement of the hind end doing a sharp left turn). The dog learns the reward comes at certain times but can come also come at any time.. so paying attention and being focused he gets what he wants (the reward).


Rather than resorting to physical correction, a skillful trainer will use "loss of opportunity for reinforcement" as a mechanism to get the desired result.

IOW's, for those who may be unfamiliar with the concept. During training, let's say the objective or end goal is for the dog to go through the entire heeling routine before receiving his reward. So, at whatever point when the dog breaks focus (for example - _forward, left turn, slow speed, normal speed, about turn_ <dog breaks focus>), he is perhaps given an NRM at the exact instant of the look away, the handler/ dog engagement is subsequently 'broken off' and the dog is returned to the very beginning of the exercise, in this case the start line. IE: loss of opportunity for reinforcement. During the second attempt, if the dog makes it to a point anywhere past the aforementioned _about turn_ without looking away, then the verbal marker "yes" plus reward plus release is immediately given. Third attempt, a bit further, progressively ... and so on and so forth until the entire heeling routine can be completed with unfailing focus. Whereby a release plus mega-jackpot is given and a huge loving fuss is made. 

This is clear communication without ANY need for physical, potentially damaging corrections. This is what I like to call skillful training.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

To add to my above comments. In that example, I'm certainly going to recognize the dog's difficulty with the about turn portion because IMO he's giving me some usable information there. Therefore I'm going to break that down into a much smaller component - the about turn itself - and practice * whatever it is he's struggling with *, separately, in order to build a considerable amount of value into it. IE: two or three steps of heeling, about turn without breaking focus, REWARD (at various micro-points _during _the about turn), release. ... Repeat, repeat, repeat. Then, once he is proficient, add it back in with the rest of the heeling routine.

Again, skillful -- and thoughtful -- training. Without the so-called "need" for corrections.


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## christine_72 (Jun 14, 2018)

Shock/prong collar are banned here in Australia, for good reason.. Any trainer worth their salt would NEVER recommend painful/negative training methods. If they need to resort to using these tools then they are a useless trainer, and should not be in the field!


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## Martinasmith (Nov 29, 2019)

Great Discussion on the topic of Shock Collars, great wealth of information from all parties. This is good stuff to learn and share it with others as I learn more about dogs.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

What most pet dog and low level drive trainers do not understand is there are times when the stim simply clarifies things for the dog such that training can move on. Again, most pets are neither high drive nor in a situation where drive over rides all the typical ways we train. 

Corrections can have their place. They clarify boundaries. BUT they are largely useless when the dog does not understand the cue. Correcting a dog for getting in the garbage is pointless. Correcting a dog for getting up from sit in the kitchen to go to the garbage can be corrected IF the dog understands what SIT means. You correct for breaking the sit command NOT for heading for the garbage. 

Does that sit need a stim for an E Collar? Unlikely. In skilled hands it can be effective but the question is "why?" I would not use an e collar is such a situation. 

OTOH if you have a dog that gets dirty in the blind AFTER he has been on a platform and a long line so he CANNOT get dirty in the blind, the decoy may have the remote and stim the dog for getting dirty. The decoy cannot make the dog clean by coming at the dog (if the dog is strong and is in fight drive). Movement justifies the dog biting. The handler is not even in sight so the handler cannot do anything. A third person can pick up a long line and move the dog out of reach of the decoy, but the dog quickly learns when that line is on or off. The decoy could hold the stick to prevent the dirty bite but the day will come when the stick CANNOT be held there and the dog knows it and chances are he will get dirty again. CLARITY comes from the proper level of stim that puts the dog BACK into a bark and hold at which point the dog is REWARDED with the bite. Remember, in this situation the dog WANTS the bite (assuming a good, confident dog in high drive). 

Another thing to know is WHY a dog does a bark and hold in the first place. The dog believes this fight is real. He enters the blind and the "prey" holds still. This is instinct. Dogs run in packs. If a dog hunts and finds a large prey animal that he cannot subdue on his own and that animal stop running and faces the dog and holds still, the dog barks to alert the other members of the pack that the prey is found and he needs help to neutralize it. If you watch any predator/prey movie on TV the predator typically only grabs MOVING prey. If an animal holds still, so does the predator until the animal moves (cats are masters of this). So, the bark and hold in the blind is that behavior. In a do or die situation where bringing down prey is essential for survival, biting dirty could get the dog killed (go back to the moose.. imagine him standing still, head lowered.. dog gets "dirty" and the moose could stomp the dog or fling it.. as coming in to "get dirty" puts the dog in too close to the moose. In the wild, dogs that got dirty died or were hurt enough to learn to stay back barking. 

Well, certainly we don't want our dogs to die for getting dirty on a decoy. We want the dog to learn. So, the decoy has the remote and stims the dog at the appropriate level. The dog comes off and then barks.. and then the decoy rewards the dog with movement allowing the dog to bite. 

This explanation oversimplifies all of this but describes things most pet dog or lower level drive trainers do not deal with. Most pet dog owners might use an e collar for one of two things. Prevent barking. For recall. That is about it. The dogs are not in high drive situations. 

There IS high drive in agility. No question about it. But that drive is from a different source than the drive for a decoy in a blind.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

petpeeve said:


> Rather than resorting to physical correction, a skillful trainer will use "loss of opportunity for reinforcement" as a mechanism to get the desired result.
> 
> IOW's, for those who may be unfamiliar with the concept. During training, let's say the objective or end goal is for the dog to go through the entire heeling routine before receiving his reward. So, at whatever point when the dog breaks focus (for example - _forward, left turn, slow speed, normal speed, about turn_ <dog breaks focus>), he is perhaps given an NRM at the exact instant of the look away, the handler/ dog engagement is subsequently 'broken off' and the dog is returned to the very beginning of the exercise, in this case the start line. IE: loss of opportunity for reinforcement. During the second attempt, if the dog makes it to a point anywhere past the aforementioned _about turn_ without looking away, then the verbal marker "yes" plus reward plus release is immediately given. Third attempt, a bit further, progressively ... and so on and so forth until the entire heeling routine can be completed with unfailing focus. Whereby a release plus mega-jackpot is given and a huge loving fuss is made.
> 
> This is clear communication without ANY need for physical, potentially damaging corrections. This is what I like to call skillful training.


You can do this but if you are not rewarding to the end, and you have a loss of focus, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG. NRM's are useful; we use them extensively. HOWEVER, in the long heeling patterns we do, we NEVER EVER make the dog wait all the way to the end. Instead we use "trial markers" where rewards are routinely given. for instance, after the second gun shot, after the about turn, after the group when we say "thank you group." The dog learns to expect a reward at those points. If he does not get the reward he comes UP in drive because he thinks it is coming.. then comes UP again at the next opportunity. This is a LONG obedience exercise. It is not some short routine. 

I would NEVER couple a stim with an about turn and loss of focus. Instead, take the dog BACK a step and break the about turn down into smaller increments. 

LOSS OF FOCUS equals a DROP IN DRIVE. Most AKC obedience trainers find drive UNDESIRABLE. If you want lessons is killing drive, go watch an AKC match or sho and go. MOST of it is AWFUL. Dogs have their heads down.. they show no power or desire to work. Many look like a kid taking a math test.. gritting his teeth just waiting for the darn bell to ring so they can get out of there. I go to sho and go matches just to give my dog something different. Most people know me and know what I train. Their responses range from _fear_ of my dog to fascination to "you're doing it wrong.." _I don't care what they think. _My dog is focused on me. He looks powerful in his heeling. He is quick and he is obedient. When I had my bitch and we would go to sho and goes I would toss the IPO 1 Dumbell over the jump and the IPO 3 dumbell on the flat. She was 22 inches at the shoulder. I had the jump set at a full 36 inches and, if I could, I would set it up on blocks to get 39 or 40 inches in height. That is what we train. People would stop what they were doing to watch her and gasp at the height. Some would comment. Their dogs would not do this.. and my dog would do it with power and JOY. She was trained with an e collar but she did not have it on at the match (of course). She just loved it and, I think, she loved being a star. Sometimes people would clap.. and that bright the drive up MORE. 

CORRECTIONS should NEVER result in a _drop_ in drive. IF they do you have not followed the correction immediately with a reward three times stronger than the correction OR you have inappropriately corrected the dog. 



petpeeve said:


> To add to my above comments. In that example, I'm certainly going to recognize the dog's difficulty with the about turn portion because IMO he's giving me some usable information there. Therefore I'm going to break that down into a much smaller component - the about turn itself - and practice * whatever it is he's struggling with *, separately, in order to build a considerable amount of value into it. IE: two or three steps of heeling, about turn without breaking focus, REWARD (at various micro-points _during _the about turn), release. ... Repeat, repeat, repeat. Then, once he is proficient, add it back in with the rest of the heeling routine.
> 
> Again, skillful -- and thoughtful -- training. Without the so-called "need" for corrections.


If you repeat repeat repeat too much you will LOSE DRIVE. Be careful. IF what you are doing does not get results in 3 tries, you better try something else because your dog is not understanding..


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

3GSD4IPO said:


> Most AKC obedience trainers find drive UNDESIRABLE. If you want lessons is killing drive, go watch an AKC match or sho and go. MOST of it is AWFUL. Dogs have their heads down.. they show no power or desire to work. Many look like a kid taking a math test.. gritting his teeth just waiting for the darn bell to ring so they can get out of there.


Well, geez. We all can't have IPO Mals and GSD's.

Seems a little condescending, dont'cha think? not to mention a tad on the myopic side, considering there's every temperament and every breed from Basenjis to Great Danes and everything in between ENJOYING the AKC obedience...._without_ _any use of shock collars_ during training, I might add.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

petpeeve said:


> Well, geez. We all can't have IPO Mals and GSD's.
> 
> Seems a little condescending, dont'cha think? not to mention a tad on the myopic side, considering there's every temperament and every breed from Basenjis to Great Danes and everything in between ENJOYING the AKC obedience...._without_ _any use of shock collars_ during training, I might add.


I WISH my comments WERE condescending!!!! This is what I have OBSERVED.

Just look at tail carriage.. at any show or match. YES there are dogs that clearly love the work because they have been trained to find the work fun and have a relationship with the handler. 

Then there are the rest.. and of those that are clearly looking to "get this over with" I daresay MOST of these dogs are NOT trained with E collars! It's NOT about the equipment. 

Now each breed with express itself differently. Clearly that is true. Some breeds are far more difficult to train than other breeds and some individual dogs are harder to train than others in the same breed. Totally true. 

When I see dogs after dog of the same breed in the ring with the same "just let's get this over with" and I KNOW how those dogs train (because I know the people and have seen the training) I do speak the truth. And then the Judges PIN that.. I SMH. 

It has been a long time since I did AKC Obedience and trialed in AKC obedience. I was successful and had a drawer full of blue ribbons. My dog did not enjoy the training and we did not have a relationship. She did it.. 

Then I changed sports. 

If my dog came out in this sport looking like he or she just wanted to leave the field, the judges would fail me. I have seen that happen. 

And, lest you think we Only have Drivey Confident dogs or one breed, please put that to rest. I have seen everything out on the field from Shelties to Dobermans.. and they must look like they WANT to be there or they do not pass. And of these non GSD breeds, I would say about 80% are not trained on electronic collars. Again, it is not about the equipment, it is IS about the training. 

Don't malign the plumbers pipe wrench until you have used it where and when it is the best tool for the job.


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## Knute (Aug 10, 2019)

Yes, A hammer is always a tool. Although, it may not be the best tool to use.

Well spoken, 3GSD.

From what I have seen, some breeds don't respond to punishment of any sort.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I am currently puppy raising (as in raising for someone else) a sports prospect GSD. This dog is from a long line of sports and working lines.

Lots of drive. Lots of desire to bite and hang on. Lots of drive. . Fairly 'hard'. Tons of resilience. Easily frustrated but does. not. quit. 

I will tell you bluntly and clearly, simply, and directly that 
A-) This dog is not like my border-collie things. It does not do things just because I told it to. It does not respect, trust, or want to work with me just because I exist and have thumbs and I have had to slow my roll and learn some new stuff.
B-) The thing this dog needs to have to work with me is not punishment, much less a shock collar. It needs a relationship with me and to know, trust and to be able to predict me.

I COULD use brute force/punishment without breaking the puppy.

Or I could learn the puppy, let the puppy learn me, build a relationship and do just fine.

Guess which one I'm going with? GO ON. GUESS.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

petpeeve said:


> Well, geez. We all can't have IPO Mals and GSD's.
> 
> Seems a little condescending, dont'cha think? not to mention a tad on the myopic side, considering there's every temperament and every breed from Basenjis to Great Danes and everything in between ENJOYING the AKC obedience...._without_ _any use of shock collars_ during training, I might add.


I have been waiting for the day 3GSDs pulled a "BUT GSDS!!!" since I started puppy raising this sucker. Just because I'm a jerk and can now definitely say "Naaaaah."


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I'm inclined to let this basically random sampling of videos speak the truth.






akc open obedience - YouTube


Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.




www.youtube.com





Go ahead. Take the time to watch and analyze the videos. 

Aside from one dog who momentarily has his head down, I see tails that are up. I see willingness and enjoyment. I see lots of drive. Sure, it's not 'fight and bite and hang on to the death' IGP drive, but still. It's certainly, sufficiently ... there. I see a wide variety of breeds, and temperaments. And, never mind "most" (I seriously take exception to the use of that word earlier in the thread), I don't see ANY dogs who "look like a kid taking a math test.. gritting his teeth just waiting for the darn bell to ring so they can get out of there". 

So, there you have it. The truth.


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## storyist (Sep 19, 2019)

Well, I am currently doing AKC Rally and Obedience with my two Rottie girls, and I do see some dogs (and people) in the rings looking like they're taking a math test they didn't study for. There's no use pretending that all breeds are equally suited for this kind of human-canine cooperation or that all people can be top drawer trainers and handlers. It's also true that individuals of a breed - or even a litter - may be more or less suitable.

It's also true, though, that a lot of people don't choose a dog for obedience work. They take the dog they have to an obedience class and then decide _what the heck_ and try for a title. So you see a nervous handler in the ring with a beloved pet, both stressed by the environment. The same dog may glide through the exercises at home with a much happier attitude.

And some people don't train well or don't train enough, but I bet almost everyone who trains at all benefits from strengthening the bond with their dog.

I'm not against aversives when necessary. My dogs are large, strong, strong-willed and not particularly physically sensitive. I'm competitive as all get out and don't merely want a title but to do well. Even so, I believe in the whole _have fun with your dog thing_, and if I needed a shock collar for the kind of training I do, neither one of us would be having fun.


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## Knute (Aug 10, 2019)

Oh.....pass the popcorn please. This is getting interesting.

BTW, I agree. 
Build the relationship and trust with the dog. 

Sure, it may be a bit slower, but in the end........a well behaved, happy and obedient dog will emerge.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I just can't justify using electric shocks to train a dog to do a hobby activity.


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## Sanne (Jan 21, 2019)

Interesting discussion! I am personally against shock collars myself. Does not matter anyway as Netherlands recently banned them. But I just cannot think of any scenario in which I would need one.

I do a lot of training with my dogs, mainly agility and obedience but we dabble in some other things too. At the end of the day, while we are in it to win it, it's all for my and my dog's enjoyment. We have fun doing it. Zuna acts like I am the only one existing during an agility run, eyes fixated on me. And I love it! I feel my dog greatly respects and trusts me and the feeling is mutual. I can't imagine purposely causing her discomfort during any kind of training. Like others, I have found training time to be the best way to bond with a dog.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

petpeeve said:


> I'm inclined to let this basically random sampling of videos speak the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched the first two. Just the heeling. The Aussie lags, and has his head down through a lot of it. Lagging is a sign of PRESSURE. Pressure can be from a LOT of things (not necessarily aversive training) from over drilling to the handler nerves (those pheromones will get you ever time) to simply insufficient reward schedule and making the reward valuable to the dog. Honestly? It was pretty typical and lacked drive and interest. Between exercises the drive dropped even more (if that is possible). That dog was doing a math test... 

The second video.. 2nd place.. again, the dog was disengaged. He/she was in correct position but showed pressure and NOT a lot of joy and not a lot of drive and certainly not great focus. This dog also exhibits pressure. 

I skipped to the Heart 200 video. AT LAST a dog that was engaged and happy to work. A bit too happy (tried to steal the DB out of her hand) but focused on her through the figure 8 and so forth. 

THIS is what I mean by engaged, focused and driven heeling.. obedience. Yes it is a world competition and the world competition winner at that time, but this is darn nice work. This produced a V score (which is high 90's out of 100 possible points). Not all breeds will look the same, but this is the attention we are looking for and the dog is actually unloading his energy into the business of obedience. Enjoy. 






I will look for more later when I have some time.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

CptJack said:


> I am currently puppy raising (as in raising for someone else) a sports prospect GSD. This dog is from a long line of sports and working lines.
> 
> Lots of drive. Lots of desire to bite and hang on. Lots of drive. . Fairly 'hard'. Tons of resilience. Easily frustrated but does. not. quit.
> 
> ...


I won't guess. We all know you are the quintessential expert on all things dog training.

Most agility trainers do not use e collars for training. A few do. Again.. it is not the tool it is how you use it. 
That said, in agility the obstacles are where the drive is placed and it is very different than IGP or AKC Ob and I appreciate that. What is even more interesting is that the drives required for a good IGP dog are often the same drives required for an agility dog. A lot of GSD breeders PREFER their puppies go to agility homes. Just an FYI. And there are good reasons for this that have nothing to do with IGP. 

Again, a tool is only as good as the person handling it. Results count too. As WVasko used to say, "If kissing the dog on the butt got results he would have been the best dog butt kisser on the earth." 

I will say this.. hard dog or soft dog.. that is not the criteria for the tool. 

I have known dogs that, once in fight drive, actually escalate their fight if corrected by ANY means at all. These dogs are GREAT patrol dogs in tough places... they are not good sport dogs and usually not good pets. 

I have seen hard and soft dogs.. and e collars used on both but in different ways with success. It is how and when and how much. You need to know. 

The biggest issue with the anti e collar group that I see is that most have never seen one used correctly. They all believe you "fry the dog." If you are doing that, then you are doing it wrong. And.. because they don't know how to use one they all believe it will result in the dog cowering to the ground.. and, if that is what happens you are doing it wrong. 

My current dog and the dog before him both were exposed to e collars. In each case the collar was used very differently because the dogs were very different. Last dog? Levels were much higher and this dog very very low... can't go any lower.. and it is used as a reminder. ANY pressure, be it voice, hands, collar correction or even NRM can result in a poor outcome. ANY pressure at all needs to be countered with 3x higher reward.. or you lose the dog. 

Here is a general question not just for Cpt Jack (and I know it depends on the dog and the sport):
How long are your training sessions (focused obedience or Agility)? 5 minutes? 10 minutes? an Hour??? 

If I am training something new (e collar on but not ever used) my dog is toast after about 5-10 minutes including a LOT of play breaks. If I am practicing and polishing something known it is rarely more than 10 minutes actual training and the other 10 minutes are reward breaks. Sometimes reward delivery and giving the reward back is the entirety of training (so the dog knows he doesn't always lose the reward). This is obedience training most of which is parts and pieces. The dog sees the entire routine only in a trial. 

Protection training length is determined by a skilled decoy. Rarely more than 10 minutes.. due to the energy consumed by a dog in very high drive. 

Regardless of what you are training, you want to go off the field or out of the ring with as much dog as you had going in.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

Oh a brief aside... 
"Desire to bite" is NOT a criteria of IGP training. "Desire to bite" can come from a LOT of sources.. and often not what you want for either IGP sport or Police work. Understanding this is basic to both and misinterpreted by many.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I just hope the OP didn't drop off their dog with an adverse trainer and leave town.... where they unable to check up on the dogs welfare... May never get the same dog back..


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

parus said:


> I just can't justify using electric shocks to train a dog to do a hobby activity.


I'm with you, Parus. Just not how I want to build a relationship. Maybe some day I'll have a dog that has such a dangerous behavior (or I'll move somewhere with more venomous snakes) that I'll consider avoidance training. Maybe I'll have a dog one day that's so large and strong that I'll need corrective tools to help with control and keeping us both safe. Especially as I'm fully aware I may not have the time, skills, or resources at the moment to address or manage these potentially dangerous problems in a force-free manner. But for a game? Particularly when there are IGP people and even police K9 trainers who are using force-free methods? I struggle to justify it to myself.

But some people do it, with careful attention to the dog they're working with, and it works. I'm not going to pretend my way is the only effective way, but I will continue to say and believe that some methods - shock collars included - have a much higher risk of fallout than others. I don't take issue with people making the educated, informed decision to use them on their dogs with their goals. I do kinda take issue with the claim that shock collars - or even corrections at all - are absolutely necessary for any/all training or dogs.

Receipts, just in case:

Shade Whitesel does fabulous work with her IPO/IGP dogs

Talk with Steve White, former VP of the CCPDT and long-time K9 trainer using force-free methods

Again, not saying their way is the only way. Just that it's clearly possible, in sports and work.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

I am unimpressed with Shade Whitesel's work though she has figured out how to make money. In the video above the dog does the protection routine but I observe a lack of power throughout. There are poor grips (not deep). The bark in the blind is not powerful and is intermittent at times. He bumps the sleeve once that can be seen (judge blocks the view in a lot of it) (a lot of dogs do bump, but it is a point deduction). In the drives the dog is loose in the body indicating a lack of power. In the other holds after the outs the dog is inconsistent going from a silent guard to a barking guard indicating a lack of power (or clarity in training or both). 

But this thread is about e collars and their use not Sport protection phase.


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## DaySleepers (Apr 9, 2011)

I mean. That's okay? You don't have to be impressed. My point was - and still is - that you can work a bitesport dog without shock collars - or any correction - and do it quite successfully. Whether or not you're personally impressed, she's competitive at Nationals with quite high scores on her dogs. Just pointing out that e collars are a choice, not a necessity, in 99% of training. Including venues where they're still in frequent use by high performing dogs and trainers.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DaySleepers said:


> I mean. That's okay? You don't have to be impressed. My point was - and still is - that you can work a bitesport dog without shock collars - or any correction - and do it quite successfully. Whether or not you're personally impressed, she's competitive at Nationals with quite high scores on her dogs. Just pointing out that e collars are a choice, not a necessity, in 99% of training. Including venues where they're still in frequent use by high performing dogs and trainers.


I mean.

The judges are impressed.

And the judges are who's opinions matter, so.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Um.

Okay.

Should've left ignore on, I guess.

1-) I never said WHAT sport this puppy was being raised for. I can't do that, because I don't know. It's being raised for _sports_. Foundations are pretty universal.

2-) Agility is about balancing obstacle focus and handler focus. Handler focus is more important, over all. Because... being focused just on the obstacles means the dog's just stuff without stimulus control, off course and going to lose. Badly. Drive for agility is not 'drive for obstacles' anyway. That's nonsense. There is no drive to do an a-frame in any breed, anywhere, because that's NOT WHAT DRIVE IS. Drive to chase things, sometimes, sure, or get the reward you're using, or maybe even finding movement itself rewarding, but there is no 'obstacle drive. I mean it may be, and likely is, using the drive differently but drive isn't FOR the obstacles.

3-) I know, you can totally tell biting isn't at all part of the make up of breeds and has never been selected for in breeds commonly used in protection sports by the way mals and GSDs are so soft mouthed as soon as they have teeth. Wasn't my point, anyway. My point is it's a determined, hard biting, hard going puppy that _stilll_ didn't make me think 'you know what I need here? A shock collar'.

4-) How long are training sessions? I don't know 3 seconds through 15 minutes, maybe, if you count start to stop including play breaks and other activities, instead of any individual period of time working.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

storyist said:


> It's also true, though, that a lot of people don't choose a dog for obedience work. They take the dog they have to an obedience class and then decide _what the heck_ and try for a title. So you see a nervous handler in the ring with a beloved pet, both stressed by the environment. The same dog may glide through the exercises at home with a much happier attitude.
> 
> And some people don't train well or don't train enough, but I bet almost everyone who trains at all benefits from strengthening the bond with their dog.


Basically my thoughts as well. There are people who get dogs in order to compete, and there are people who practice formal obedience (or other dog sports) in order to train the dog they have. For the former, obviously you want to go get a dog that's highly temperamentally and physically suited to the sport. But if someone has a dog that's a touch flaky or timid or aloof or whatever, and they manage to kindly build them up and develop a partnership to the point that they're able to successfully perform, I think that's fantastic. The goal in that case isn't really the Qs, the goal is to improve the dog's safety and quality of life by getting it to be handler-oriented and confident enough to behave well and keep an even keel even in challenging environments and situations. They might look less gonzo when competing, but they're still probably night and day from where they started out.


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## 3GSD4IPO (Jun 8, 2016)

CptJack said:


> I mean.
> 
> The judges are impressed.
> 
> And the judges are who's opinions matter, so.


Well yes, but note the venue and the dog. Just as in any sport, the venue can mean quite a difference in judging and what is or is not marked down. 



CptJack said:


> Um.
> 
> Okay.
> 
> Should've left ignore on, I guess.


 Ah.. but you love me.. I know it... and vice versa... 



> 1-) I never said WHAT sport this puppy was being raised for. I can't do that, because I don't know. It's being raised for _sports_. Foundations are pretty universal.


Yes. I understand this. I would never put an electronic collar on a puppy learning new things... Wait.. I might put one ON a 8 month old puppy, but it would not be turned on. That is too young and earlier than that it is not even on the dog. I have not USED it for training under something like 24 months.. though this dog it wasn't really used until 2 and a half.. 



> 2-) Agility is about balancing obstacle focus and handler focus. Handler focus is more important, over all. Because... being focused just on the obstacles means the dog's just stuff without stimulus control, off course and going to lose. Badly. Drive for agility is not 'drive for obstacles' anyway. That's nonsense. There is no drive to do an a-frame in any breed, anywhere, because that's NOT WHAT DRIVE IS. Drive to chase things, sometimes, sure, or get the reward you're using, or maybe even finding movement itself rewarding, but there is no 'obstacle drive. I mean it may be, and likely is, using the drive differently but drive isn't FOR the obstacles.


Yes. It was absolutely incorrect of me to say the dog had drive for the obstacles. 
Drives are as follows: 
Prey drive
Hunt drive
Fight drive
Defense drive 
Food drive
Play drive

People is my sport talk about "ball drive." It isn't REALLY ball drive.. it is prey drive and play drive.. maybe some fight drive.. but mostly prey and play. 
YES to stimulus control and my sport is the same but the drive release is different. 

Someone I used to know (deceased) broke drives down really nicely with videos and what have you.. his site is gone now unfortunately.. but in the end, he indicated dogs work because or out of _drive satisfaction._ The control comes when the dog knows that "doing X" will lead to some drive satisfaction. In the case of tracking, the drive is hunt drive and the satisfaction is in the find and the reward for the find.. but in there the hunt itself is rewarding. I had one dog that had a TON of hunt drive and the track itself was self rewarding. I was lucky.. to get her to stop and indicate and article.. all she wanted to do was track.. so I had to make the article highly valuable. Let's just say I bought a lot of nice roast beef and made roast pork. This dog tracked on any surface and would have excelled as a search dog (which she would show some times and cost me points). 

Drive is MORE than to chase things (that is prey drive.. and maybe hunt drive). The other drives count. Never underestimate the other drives because they exist in various levels in most dogs. Yes.. drive for the obstacle is nonsense and I should not have said that. I admit my error. 

I did have a dog I took to a couple of entry level agility classes. For whatever reason she found the tunnel self rewarding. If she did something (like a jump) she would go self reward with the tunnel.. so I had to make listening to me more rewarding than the tunnel. In her case? I used food because that drive was her highest drive. It was years go.. I think I would do a lot better with her now though I do not do agility and really do not want to do agility. 

I AM glad a lot of other DO like this sport but it is not for me. 



> 3-) I know, you can totally tell biting isn't at all part of the make up of breeds and has never been selected for in breeds commonly used in protection sports by the way mals and GSDs are so soft mouthed as soon as they have teeth. Wasn't my point, anyway. My point is it's a determined, hard biting, hard going puppy that _stilll_ didn't make me think 'you know what I need here? A shock collar'.


Again.. what you don't seem to recognize is it is a tool that you can CHOOSE to use or NOT CHOOSE to use. Simple as that. People use a lot of tools.. voice, hands, clickers, heeling sticks, pinch collars, flat collars, leashes, choke collars, martingales and so forth including electronic collars. The tools are not bad but the use can be. ALL of those tools can be badly used and then the results are poor. 

If we go back to Pet Peeve's obedience videos, the first two dogs showed pressure. I would venture a guess that neither of those dogs had been trained with an e collar.. yet they showed pressure that would fail them in the sport I do. My question is "why." What are those trainers doing to have such pressured looking dogs? I see it quite often actually.. and in dogs that never wore a pinch collar and never wore an e collar. 

In agility do you see this ever? Do you know why when you do see it? Maybe you are at a level where you never see it or rarely see it.

My point is that it is the _training_ and _ flaws in the training _ that cause that pressured look, NOT the tools used. 

The video I posted.. the dogs that act like that are often trained using an e collar and they do NOT show pressure. 

The dogs showing pressure are not necessarily bad dogs and the dogs that show no pressure are not all great dogs... yet I see a LOT of pressured dogs that have NEVER seen a lot of aversive training in the AKC obedience ring (and have seen them in the AKC agility ring.. where I stewarded as a jump person) and I frequently see engaged and unpressured dogs in the sport I do that have had aversives applied. 

I think it is the usually the _training_ and NOT the tools used and NOT the dogs. 



> 4-) How long are training sessions? I don't know 3 seconds through 15 minutes, maybe, if you count start to stop including play breaks and other activities, instead of any individual period of time working.


Yes. I thought so actually. Even on a walk somewhere I use little things to train.. even out is this (freaking huge early) snow with a Jolly ball I do little things in play that are training things. My point in asking is that as a successful trainer you don't drill a dog for an hour (nor do I) but I have seen that.. and I think it kills the dog's desire to do anything.


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## pupsRus (12 mo ago)

DaySleepers said:


> I'm with you, Parus. Just not how I want to build a relationship. Maybe some day I'll have a dog that has such a dangerous behavior (or I'll move somewhere with more venomous snakes) that I'll consider avoidance training. Maybe I'll have a dog one day that's so large and strong that I'll need corrective tools to help with control and keeping us both safe. Especially as I'm fully aware I may not have the time, skills, or resources at the moment to address or manage these potentially dangerous problems in a force-free manner. But for a game? Particularly when there are IGP people and even police K9 trainers who are using force-free methods? I struggle to justify it to myself.
> 
> But some people do it, with careful attention to the dog they're working with, and it works. I'm not going to pretend my way is the only effective way, but I will continue to say and believe that some methods - shock collars included - have a much higher risk of fallout than others. I don't take issue with people making the educated, informed decision to use them on their dogs with their goals. I do kinda take issue with the claim that shock collars - or even corrections at all - are absolutely necessary for any/all training or dogs.
> 
> ...


Both Shade and Steve White use corrections in their training. They also are both educated in e collar use and know how to use it if needed.

Shade admitted many years ago on workingdog forum that she used corrections on her IPO dog and it was not done force free. She believes it can be done but has NOT done it herself.


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## pupsRus (12 mo ago)

petpeeve said:


> Why NO Choke Chains or Prong Collars
> 
> 
> "AVSAB’s position is that punishment (e.g. CHOKE CHAINS, PINCH COLLARS, AND ELECTRIC COLLARS) should not be used as a first-line or early use treatment for behavior problems." -...
> ...


Vets are clueless about dog training.


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## pupsRus (12 mo ago)

petpeeve said:


> To add to my above comments. In that example, I'm certainly going to recognize the dog's difficulty with the about turn portion because IMO he's giving me some usable information there. Therefore I'm going to break that down into a much smaller component - the about turn itself - and practice * whatever it is he's struggling with *, separately, in order to build a considerable amount of value into it. IE: two or three steps of heeling, about turn without breaking focus, REWARD (at various micro-points _during _the about turn), release. ... Repeat, repeat, repeat. Then, once he is proficient, add it back in with the rest of the heeling routine.
> 
> Again, skillful -- and thoughtful -- training. Without the so-called "need" for corrections.


AKC obedience and IPO obedience are circus tricks. Show me a video of real functional obedience done "force free".


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## pupsRus (12 mo ago)

petpeeve said:


> I'm inclined to let this basically random sampling of videos speak the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have zero clue. Show me a video of functional obedience and not circus tricks.


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## pupsRus (12 mo ago)

3GSD4IPO said:


> I am unimpressed with Shade Whitesel's work though she has figured out how to make money. In the video above the dog does the protection routine but I observe a lack of power throughout. There are poor grips (not deep). The bark in the blind is not powerful and is intermittent at times. He bumps the sleeve once that can be seen (judge blocks the view in a lot of it) (a lot of dogs do bump, but it is a point deduction). In the drives the dog is loose in the body indicating a lack of power. In the other holds after the outs the dog is inconsistent going from a silent guard to a barking guard indicating a lack of power (or clarity in training or both).
> 
> But this thread is about e collars and their use not Sport protection phase.


Shade admitted that she used corrections to title rieko.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

🧻 ..buh-bye


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