# teaching the recall with the pager collar



## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

this explains the buzzing sound


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

So then at what point do you completely phase out the collar?


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Cheetah it all depends on the dog and the handler in some cases never! it would be like when do you no longer need your cell phone to communicate with your family members..the world is full of distractions and dogs need continued reinforcment .the average age of dogs competing on a National in off leash disiplines is 6-7 years old and that is with experienced trainers..your average person does not have that type skill ,the collar just bridges the gap and is insurance around distractions


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

So what if you do want to compete, say, in obedience? As far as I know, those types of collars aren't allowed. When I took Shippo for his CGC test, all that was allowed was a flat buckle collar. I would think that if you can't phase it out in a matter of weeks to months, it would make it impossible to take part in most dog sports. It's a good idea, but I think I'll stick with my clicker.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Wow, it would suck if the collar fell off or ran out of battery.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Cheetah...yes its a teaching tool just like a clicker and lots of people use them that compete in obedience it makes it easier for the dog to learn timing ,as far as I know CGC isn't a competitive title though ?? most people with pets do not compete they need a dog that is reliable around distractions. I would love to see a video of your little guy training! hes a cutie!



pamperedpups said:


> Wow, it would suck if the collar fell off or ran out of battery.


I would like to see some of your training too!! and the collar does not fall off anymore than any other collar ??


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## TN_LAB (Jul 30, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> Wow, it would suck if the collar fell off or ran out of battery.


You can play the "what-if" game with all variables and all things. Seems you don't care for the use of e-collars. Is it necessary to be so sarcastic? 

Just let it be.

It would suck if the leash broke.
It would suck if the dog didn't respond to trainer.
It would suck if the trainer got frustrated at other training methods and couldn't enjoy time with their dog.
It would suck if my clicker broke.
It would suck if my dog went deaf.
It would suck if ...........

The collars don't fall off (especially if you attach them with a tight fitting prong collar)


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> Hi Cheetah...yes its a teaching tool just like a clicker and lots of people use them that compete in obedience it makes it easier for the dog to learn timing ,as far as I know CGC isn't a competitive title though ??


You're right, CGC is not a competitive title. It is simply an AKC award showing that my dog does come when called, stay when told, walks politely on lead, pays attention to me (all with distractions), and isn't afraid/aggressive toward other dogs, people, random distractions. All of which I did train with a clicker (which I no longer have to use, unless I am training something new). Had I still been using "click and treat," I would not have been allowed to take the test, so as with any training tool, I would hope this collar can be phased out once the dog knows what is being asked of him. You are right though. If this is just for the every day owner who doesn't mind having the extra tools around, it does work fine.

Nice videos as well. Hopefully some day, I'll be able to afford a nice camera that is capable of video, that way I can make videos of my own. Right now it's just not possible.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

Hi Cheetah..oh thats just a regular digital camera nothing fancy! and the dogs in the videos are very young the yellow is not even 7 months and the black one is 15mons and I'm sure there are a lot of people on here who have dogs they can take off leash out in public at that age around a lot of distractions but there are probably a few who cannot a lot of my clients are older people or have children the collar allows them to work the dog.. dogs are creatures of habit the collar just helps form the habit they will do tomorrow what they did today! ........these are two young dogs I would not be able to reliably work them in heavy traffic without the fact they are reliable because they are collar conditioned http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fLy9lMHsUM and I;m sure its possible with the clicker training too it may take a little longer is all


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I;m sure its possible with the clicker training too it may take a little longer is all


Actually it doesn't take longer. Learning is learning, it doesn't matter how the behavior is learned. The e-collar is no exception to the laws of learning theory, so to suggest it may take longer would be a misconception. The e-collar is just another tool or crutch as any other tool or crutch.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Actually it doesn't take longer. Learning is learning, it doesn't matter how the behavior is learned. The e-collar is no exception to the laws of learning theory, so to suggest it may take longer would be a misconception. The e-collar is just another tool or crutch as any other tool or crutch.


Hi Prophet ...I guess I haven't seen that many clicker trained dogs but I would love to see some videos of them being worked out in public.I think the problem might be what do you do if its a large dog or dog aggressive and it decides not to do what you want?? or takes off out of earshot or there is a lot of background noise?



 in this video the background noise was so loud he could not hear the commands


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

If you're asking what to do in a worst possible training scenario, you do whatever is necessary for the safety of you and your dog. I would hope the e-collar has more value than their use in these rare, manageable instances (and I know they do, but not necessarily for anything you've demonstrated in your promotional videos). Unlike you, I've seen first hand non-e-collar dogs worked in public around intense distraction. A simple Google search would probably yield many videos, but those, like yours, aren't proof of anything magical.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

This guy clicked the hell out this dog... Note the distractions.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

The only thing that video needs, harrise, is more cowbell.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

harrise said:


> This guy clicked the hell out this dog... Note the distractions.
> 
> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sfLu5TGPvOc&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sfLu5TGPvOc&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


I know that guy he is one of my youtube friends! I don't think he trains with a clicker though i will ask him



Curbside Prophet said:


> If you're asking what to do in a worst possible training scenario, you do whatever is necessary for the safety of you and your dog. I would hope the e-collar has more value than their use in these rare, manageable instances (and I know they do, but not necessarily for anything you've demonstrated in your promotional videos). Unlike you, I've seen first hand non-e-collar dogs worked in public around intense distraction. A simple Google search would probably yield many videos, but those, like yours, aren't proof of anything magical.


I did a gogglke search and found nothing can you post the link??



Curbside Prophet said:


> If you're asking what to do in a worst possible training scenario, you do whatever is necessary for the safety of you and your dog. I would hope the e-collar has more value than their use in these rare, manageable instances (and I know they do, but not necessarily for anything you've demonstrated in your promotional videos). Unlike you, I've seen first hand non-e-collar dogs worked in public around intense distraction. A simple Google search would probably yield many videos, but those, like yours, aren't proof of anything magical.


you may have dogs that are reliable about coming around distractions but most people do not, if the dogs you train for people do well with the clicker thats great I;m not sure why you are making it your mission to put this type training down if it works for people I would not hijack a thread you posted about your methods and try to convince everyone it did not work ..I see people all the time on here that have problems with dogs not coming to them??


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

> I did a gogglke search and found nothing can you post the link??


A link to what? A dog working around distraction who was taught using the laws of learning theory? Google Ivan Balabanov and have a field day. The concept of proofing behavior was around way before the e-collar was even an idea. 



[email protected] said:


> you may have dogs that are reliable about coming around distractions but most people do not, if the dogs you train for people do well with the clicker thats great I;m not sure why you are making it your mission to put this type training down if it works for people I would not hijack a thread you posted about your methods and try to convince everyone it did not work ..I see people all the time on here that have problems with dogs not coming to them??


Please point to where I've stated anything negative about the e-collar. The concern for the reliability of this tool is real (what would happen if the dog is dependent on the collar and it falls off?). I guess you've never seen a hunting dog lose his collar in the bush. I'm not exactly sure what you're imagining, but it's nothing negative.

BTW, I haven't suggested anything about your methods. If you noticed, I responded to YOUR incorrect suggestions of alternate training tools and methods.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> A link to what? A dog working around distraction who was taught using the laws of learning theory? Google Ivan Balabanov and have a field day.


 the pager collar was developed by two people with masters degrees in behavioral science so I'm not sure how you think the principles do not apply to that but I don't want to argrue with you if you the the training expert on the forum I was not trying to upset you just offering a different approach that some people might benefit from ,you seem very angry??


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Please read where I stated the e-collar was not an exception to the laws of learning theory. What argument do you think we're having? I'm not angry...I'm quite happy actually. I enjoy discussions that lead to learning theory. I think you find my objective views unpopular, but that has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. I'm sorry.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

your right its difficult to detect tone on the internet! I apologize! I am very passionate about this tool because I have seen the results and how it allows people with limited skill to work the dog off leash like a pro but we are always incorporating new things into the training I love to see other methods in action!


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I would have no problem sharing my dogs on video if I had a way to do it. Just thought I'd add - Many dog sport competitors train using clickers including those with Agility, Flyball, Freestyle and Disc dogs. Many top behaviorists incorporate clicker training into rehabilitating dogs with serious behavioral issues. And trainers of all sorts of beasts (whales, dolphins, bears, etc.) use variations of clicker training to get their animals to perform certain behaviors. This information should make searching for videos a bit easier.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> I would have no problem sharing my dogs on video if I had a way to do it. Just thought I'd add - Many dog sport competitors train using clickers including those with Agility, Flyball, Freestyle and Disc dogs. Many top behaviorists incorporate clicker training into rehabilitating dogs with serious behavioral issues. And trainers of all sorts of beasts (whales, dolphins, bears, etc.) use variations of clicker training to get their animals to perform certain behaviors. This information should make searching for videos a bit easier.


 doesn't everyone have a digital camera theses days?? you can get them on ebay cheap! thats where I got mine.and training dogs is much different than training wild animals bears turn on the trainers and whales and dolphins are in a controlled enviroment.I had some puppies that were in a movie and the trainers trained them with a clicker but 4 of them were trained to be ''Marley'' luckily cause the day of the shoot three of them decided to follow the ''buzzer'' puppies instead of the clicker.in the movie Owen wilson says ''boo! as the way to pick the puppy.the one that did it was pefect though!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> your right its difficult to detect tone on the internet! I apologize! I am very passionate about this tool because I have seen the results and how it allows people with limited skill to work the dog off leash like a pro but we are always incorporating new things into the training I love to see other methods in action!


 Mmm ya, and clicker trainers are passionate about their tool as well, and for good reason. So when the question is asked, how do you phase the tool out?, this is a common question posed on clicker trainers – I would expect this question and there is a response that negates the emotional argument (if one is implied). There is a methodology to phase out a clicker, and it’s probably the same methodology using an e-collar, if you are in fact using it as a secondary reinforcer, and not as a primary, aversive consequence. There are a lot of people who do not want to rely on a tool, especially one that’s commonly used for aversion…I would be one of them. I wouldn’t even own a clicker if I didn’t find it useful, and I certainly wouldn’t own one if my dog depended on it.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

mm ya? I;m not sure what that means but maybe we should just start another thread about clicker training and everyone can post thier videos on there! I would love to see your dogs in action!


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

I have been e-collar training for as long as there have been e-collars, so perhaps I can clear up some misconceptions.
You never phase the e-collar out during training/practice. From the time the pup starts a formal basics program (5-7 months) until it finishes it's competitive/working career (8-12 years) the dog has the collar on during training (not that I said "on", not "used"). This is to prevent the dog from becoming collar wise, and insures compliance when in competition with a naked neck. This is no different than putting a normal collar on the dog to train or take it for a walk. 

In the first video the collar is being used as a "cue" and is no different than using your voice, whistle, or anything else. When clicker training the click is a "marker" not a "cue" so that is comparing apples and oranges. If it was used as a "marker" you would only buzz *after* the dog had returned.

The *ONLY* real reason for using an e-collar is to facilitate remote training, there just isn't any other 1/4 mile long leash. Before the days of the e-collar those long distance corrections were normally done with slingshots, shotguns and tennis shoes.

To be used properly the e-collar is matched to the intensity of the dogs normal training collar/lead. This insures that both have an identical meaning to the dog. So in reality the e-collar is exactly the same thing as any other training collar, it only uses a different medium to do the same thing. 

Bottom line, the e-collar is just another tool, and is used exactlly like any other collar/lead. Doesn't make any difference if you use the pager or the shock.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

blunder said:


> The *ONLY* real reason for using an e-collar is to facilitate remote training, there just isn't any other 1/4 mile long leash. Before the days of the e-collar those long distance corrections were normally done with slingshots and shotguns.


I can just imagine a SAR dog being shot to continue a search for a cadaver...and sending a second dog out to locate, now, two cadavers.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I can just imagine a SAR dog being shot to continue a search for a cadaver...and sending a second dog out to locate, now, two cadavers.


ROFL

Rat shot my friend, rat shot

# 9s & 12s are to light to have any penetration at anything over ten yards. Just make sure the dog is facing the other way. 

The concern that there had to be a better and more humane way is what led to the invention of the e-collar in the first place.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

BLAST!!!!!!!!!!! I lost internet for a few hours and consequently lost my post/reply. Ugh. Now the thread is two(2) pages?!? Oh well. 

¿Why is it that dog trainers seem to fall into a narrow methodology/technique?


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

harrise said:


> BLAST!!!!!!!!!!! I lost internet for a few hours and consequently lost my post/reply. Ugh. Now the thread is two(2) pages?!? Oh well.
> 
> ¿Why is it that dog trainers seem to fall into a narrow methodology/technique?


Only natural that people will stay within their comfort zone. 
"this worked for me before, so it is what I will use forever"

In reality a closed mind to change is and always has been our own worse enemy. Personally I think that people that don't have the dogs best interest in mind are few and far between. Without exception I believe that every methodology change is the result of someone wondering if there is a better way


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> doesn't everyone have a digital camera theses days??


I do have a digital camera. But my camera is a digital SLR, which is strictly made for taking high quality photos (like the kind you would sell) - it's not capable of video, and I will have to buy a lesser quality digital camera, or a digital camcorder, to take videos with... I bought what was more important to me, being a photographer.

Those last puppy videos are not the way you would normally use a clicker in training. It's like the opposite of actual clicker training lol...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Been a lot of years since the shotgun court martial was used, I hope. It was used on all kinds of bird dogs. That's one of the main reasons I got my 1st e-collar.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> mm ya? I;m not sure what that means but maybe we should just start another thread about clicker training and everyone can post thier videos on there! I would love to see your dogs in action!


wait. Your telling me your a *proffesional dog trainer* that hasn't ever used a clicker? Or even been_ around_ clicker trained dogs? 

What kind of bubble do you live in?

I find your _promo_ videos interesting. Just not the way i'd do it. I like my clicker.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> wait. Your telling me your a *proffesional dog trainer* that hasn't ever used a clicker? Or even been_ around_ clicker trained dogs?
> 
> What kind of bubble do you live in?
> 
> I find your _promo_ videos interesting. Just not the way i'd do it. I like my clicker. [/QUOTE yes I have trained dogs professionally for 27 years and have had my own bussiness since 1991 I started out training gun dogs and I can assure you they do not use clickers I have worked for differnt kennels all over the US not one ever used clickers but they were all working dog kennels sporting or protection dogs here we specialize in working and sporting breeds and dogs with aggression issues I also breed Labradors and German Shepherd dogs from Imported lines I am curiuos what breeds you and curbside prophet generally train are they smaller breeds do you give group classes or have in house training for your clients? I could say the same to you guys regarding the collar? I could see if I had posted a thread called pager collar versus clicker?? I'm not sure how this got into such a debate! and I will tell you the movie trainers that trained the puppies for the movie said they never even use clickers and they do all the big movies ..so its great it work for you guys but not everyone uses them I guess whay I cannot see is what you would do if the dog just decided to take off or wasn't food motivated or was intractable or a long distance way?? I do work with the occasional small dog


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> wait. Your telling me your a *proffesional dog trainer* that hasn't ever used a clicker? Or even been_ around_ clicker trained dogs?
> 
> What kind of bubble do you live in?
> 
> I find your _promo_ videos interesting. Just not the way i'd do it. I like my clicker.


sphinx
Trust me, I too am a dog trainer that has never used a clicker and probably never will. I think it's a good training program. It does not fill my requirements. There are many professional dog trainers that do not use the clicker program. My opinion only. I started professional training in 1963 in bird-dogs and then went to personal protection. Obedience training I started before turning professional. I do not use chokes, e-collars only on my dogs as when training my customers don't want expense of purchasing an e-collar after dog is trained. As I have said many times my weapon of choice is prong collar. There is a limit what can be taught a dog in 30 days and then the intricacies of explaining the proper use of an e-collar would be tough.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

[email protected] said:


> I am curiuos what breeds you and curbside prophet generally train are they smaller breeds do you give group classes or have in house training for your clients?


Since you mentioned my name I feel as though it would be polite to respond. Though I'm not sure I appreciate your tact since I don't know many 'professionals' who would do the same. I am NOT a professional, do not claim to be one, and refuse to call myself one because I am NOT certified as one. Are you certified? If so with whom? You're certainly not a CPDT if you're not familiar with learning theory. 

That being said I've served hundred and hundreds of dogs, of all types and breed as a volunteer at my local municipal shelter. I work closely with our on site behaviorist, and help wherever I can. But, my experience says nothing about yours, nor does yours about mine. No one should care about how I've trained my dog if I can't communicate the principles by which I've done that. So if this question was an attempt at one-ups-manship, you're not likely to succeed in a respected way. How you respond to the questions in this thread is all the evidence anyone will need to know about your professionalism. So far all I know about you is that you're easily offended by the simple question. I've found this to be a common problem with e-collar trainers, and I'm not sure why. Perhaps you could enlighten us. 



> I'm not sure how this got into such a debate!


It's not a debate. There are a lot of people who don't know about e-collars (and even e-collar users who don't know what learning theory principles they're using with the e-collar) who want answers to simple questions. Seriously, if you're telling me that you use the e-collar like a clicker, shouldn't I assume you know how to use a clicker? And if your video does not illustrate the e-collar being used as a secondary reinforcer, what are we to wonder about of the e-collar? 



> I cannot see is what you would do if the dog just decided to take off or wasn't food motivated or was intractable or a long distance way??


First, anyone who would allow their dog off lead in an area that was not suitable for a dog to be off-lead would keep their dog on leash. So the question you're posing is a silly one, and the answer is simple...you'd manage the situation. Plus, your e-collar is no guarantee the dog will respond. No dog responds to a cue 100% of the time, regardless of how many titles they have. They are still a dog with their own internal motivations. So if you make this claim, you'll demonstrate an understanding that I don't know of good e-collar trainers. Also, there is more than one reinforcer than food, but even non-food-motivated dogs can find food reinforcing...they have to eat eventually, right? And before you ask, yes, sometimes starving a dog is necessary to save their life. I could pose the same question of you...what do you do with a dog that doesn't respond to the buzzer? You're likely to punish the dog, or not use the collar at all. What does a clicker trainer do if the dog is afraid of the click (this does happen)? We use our voice, or a different audible sound, (deaf dogs use a thumbs up sign), as a secondary reinforcer. 

I don't mean to be rude, but I do mean to be critical. Professional trainers know how to answer critical questions without being offended. But I'm not sure if promoting your product will be beneficial to you, or in answering these questions, if you don't have a basic knowledge of learning theory. Every good trainer should, otherwise you won't be able to communicate the principals by which the dog's learn. That's all people care about...that their dog's learn. They don't care about the tools being used, and most if not all, we not care to make that investment if it's not needed. Your average companion dog does not need an e-collar, or a clicker for that matter, and you should be aware of that. Just trying to be constructive...not rude.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> wait. Your telling me your a *professional dog trainer* that hasn't ever used a clicker? Or even been_ around_ clicker trained dogs?
> 
> What kind of bubble do you live in?
> 
> I find your _promo_ videos interesting. Just not the way i'd do it. I like my clicker.


I was a pro trainer/handler for a lot of years (old & retired), and was a member of PRTA (Professional Retriever Trainer Association). http://www.prta.net. Believe me, there are many pro trainers that do not use a clicker. Fact is there has never been a retriever earn it's FC that was trained by clicker or positive reinforcement only. And, that is for the period of almost 100 years that field trials have been held in the US. I can't think of a single retriever with it's FC that was not e-coller trained in the last 20 years or so here in the US. If someone would like to give it a go with the clicker, I would dearly love to moniter your progress.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Since you mentioned my name I feel as though it would be polite to respond. Though I'm not sure I appreciate your tact since I don't know many 'professionals' who would do the same. I am NOT a professional, do not claim to be one, and refuse to call myself one because I am NOT certified as one. Are you certified? If so with whom? You're certainly not a CPDT if you're not familiar with learning theory.
> 
> That being said I've served hundred and hundreds of dogs, of all types and breed as a volunteer at my local municipal shelter. I work closely with our on site behaviorist, and help wherever I can. But, my experience says nothing about yours, nor does yours about mine. No one should care about how I've trained my dog if I can't communicate the principles by which I've done that. So if this question was an attempt at one-ups-manship, you're not likely to succeed in a respected way. How you respond to the questions in this thread is all the evidence anyone will need to know about your professionalism. So far all I know about you is that you're easily offended by the simple question. I've found this to be a common problem with e-collar trainers, and I'm not sure why. Perhaps you could enlighten us.
> 
> ...


Well stated CP, I forget what thread I read this on about the e-collar adjustment being so fine that when used you can spot the dog blinking etc when button is pushed. This sounds great, the problem I see is customers that can't see their dogs have a limp until I point it out, or a dog that is so roached it looks like a camel, or a dog so high in the back-end it looks like he is walking downhill. They love their dogs and they think the dogs are perfect. All the dog training in the world does not help if the owner cannot handle the instructions. Through the years I have met and talked to other trainers that talked down to their customers. The trainers were so full of themselves they figured whatever instructions they gave to customer, the customer would be able to handle them. The average client I get wants everything as simple as possible, they have mortgage/kids/jobs etc that they worry about. Simple is better for them.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

wvasko said:


> sphinx
> Trust me, I too am a dog trainer that has never used a clicker and probably never will. I think it's a good training program. It does not fill my requirements. There are many professional dog trainers that do not use the clicker program. My opinion only. I started professional training in 1963 in bird-dogs and then went to personal protection. Obedience training I started before turning professional. I do not use chokes, e-collars only on my dogs as when training my customers don't want expense of purchasing an e-collar after dog is trained. As I have said many times my weapon of choice is prong collar. There is a limit what can be taught a dog in 30 days and then the intricacies of explaining the proper use of an e-collar would be tough.



Right. Maybe I worded my post wrong. 

My real shock is that the OP doesn't seem to understand how the concept works. Or how animals learn. Or much even about how _her own_ concept works. 

At least she acts that way by the way she posts.


I understand that field/protection utilizes a collar. But the idea that a pro isn't even familiar with how a clicker works is bizarre to me.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> Right. Maybe I worded my post wrong.
> 
> My real shock is that the OP doesn't seem to understand how the concept works. Or how animals learn. Or much even about how _her own_ concept works.
> 
> ...


Well you have been on forum long enough to know that sometimes it does turn into Bizarro world.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

blunder said:


> Fact is there has never been a retriever earn it's FC that was trained by clicker or positive reinforcement only. And, that is for the period of almost 100 years that field trials have been held in the US. I can't think of a single retriever with it's FC that was not e-coller trained in the last 20 years or so here in the US.


Fact? Sounds more like an old Sambation that hasn't been crossed yet. 



> If someone would like to give it a go with the clicker, I would dearly love to moniter your progress.


It's not a question of 'if'...people already do. http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DHR230


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Fact? Sounds more like an old Sambation that hasn't been crossed yet.
> 
> 
> It's not a question of 'if'...people already do. http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DHR230


CP,
Training a hunting/gun dog is a tad different than FC Trial competition dog. That being said I retired field trial competition in 77 so I could be wrong. In your travels see if there have been any Open Field Champions, AKC or American Field pointing/retreiving trials finished using the clicker/positive methods. I'm adding the Open as that was the top competition as I remember it


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> It's not a question of 'if'...people already do. http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DHR230


Sorry to say it but,,, they are yet to put a single "All Age Point" on a dog, let alone a "Win" (5 points) which is required for a FC or AFC title.
When they do, be sure to let me know. 
10 points required for a FC, 5 by way of a win. 15 points required for an AFC, 5 by way of a win.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see someone develop a positive only training program for these upper level dogs. Just hasn't been done yet.


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Since you mentioned my name I feel as though it would be polite to respond. Though I'm not sure I appreciate your tact since I don't know many 'professionals' who would do the same. I am NOT a professional, do not claim to be one, and refuse to call myself one because I am NOT certified as one. Are you certified? If so with whom? You're certainly not a CPDT if you're not familiar with learning theory.
> 
> That being said I've served hundred and hundreds of dogs, of all types and breed as a volunteer at my local municipal shelter. I work closely with our on site behaviorist, and help wherever I can. But, my experience says nothing about yours, nor does yours about mine. No one should care about how I've trained my dog if I can't communicate the principles by which I've done that. So if this question was an attempt at one-ups-manship, you're not likely to succeed in a respected way. How you respond to the questions in this thread is all the evidence anyone will need to know about your professionalism. So far all I know about you is that you're easily offended by the simple question. I've found this to be a common problem with e-collar trainers, and I'm not sure why. Perhaps you could enlighten us.
> 
> ...


I thought when you said you were passionate about this training and had workered with lots of dogs that you were a trainer .my mistake . and I merely posted a video about doing something different and all you can do is talk about clickers If you posted a thread about clickers I would not get on there going on and on and pager collars?? and learning principles with e-collars are well documented Dr Daniel Tortora wrote a book 30 years ago entitled ''understanding electronic dog training'' and Jim and Phyiliss Dobbs www.dobbsdogs.com go into great detail not to mention the worlds top retriever trainer Mike Lardy the fact you think your the only one who has a grasp on this is baffling to me?? practical application is a lot different than reading ...anyhow its pointless to continue this discussion ..can no one on here can post a video of their own dog working with a clicker?? if your intention is to make sure no one is exposed any method but clickers you are doing a good job


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I thought when you said you were passionate about this training and had workered with lots of dogs that you were a trainer .my mistake . and I merely posted a video about doing something different and all you can do is talk about clickers If you posted a thread about clickers I would not get on there going on and on and pager collars?? and learning principles with e-collars are well documented Dr Daniel Tortora wrote a book 30 years ago entitled ''understanding electronic dog training'' and Jim and Phyllis Dobbs www.dobbsdogs.com go into great detail not to mention the worlds top retriever trainer Mike Lardy the fact you think your the only one who has a grasp on this is baffling to me?? practical application is a lot different than reading ...anyhow its pointless to continue this discussion ..can no one on here can post a video of their own dog working with a clicker?? if your intention is to make sure no one is exposed any method but clickers you are doing a good job


Trust me Lardy doesn't use an e-collar "pager" 
Have you ever been to Handjem to see how Mike trains?

Their training program, regardless of the fact that they are very fair to the dog, can still only be described as "force training".

Regardless, collar use is not what sets Mike Lardy apart from other dog trainers. In the 50+ years that I have been playing dog games I have only seen one other trainer that even comes close to Mike's ability to read dogs, and that was Rex Carr.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> I thought when you said you were passionate about this training and had workered with lots of dogs that you were a trainer .my mistake . and I merely posted a video about doing something different and all you can do is talk about clickers If you posted a thread about clickers I would not get on there going on and on and pager collars?? and learning principles with e-collars are well documented Dr Daniel Tortora wrote a book 30 years ago entitled ''understanding electronic dog training'' and Jim and Phyiliss Dobbs www.dobbsdogs.com go into great detail not to mention the worlds top retriever trainer Mike Lardy the fact you think your the only one who has a grasp on this is baffling to me?? practical application is a lot different than reading ...anyhow its pointless to continue this discussion ..can no one on here can post a video of their own dog working with a clicker?? if your intention is to make sure no one is exposed any method but clickers you are doing a good job


Im sure not many people are following this thread.

Post a thread that asks for clicker training videos. Im sure you *will* get them. 

I don't know. In all your posts you seem to be advertising yourself. Not sharing. When asked questions about your methods you get evasive.

Debating collars and clickers should be an easy thing for a pro to do, no matter what "side" they are on.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

The poster "splash" may not be following this thread, but I believe her young Border Collie is trained using a clicker. She has a video posted on the General Topic forum that you should look up.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> Im sure not many people are following this thread.
> 
> Post a thread that asks for clicker training videos. Im sure you *will* get them.
> 
> ...


Sphynx
When you're right, you're right. It was not that big a jump, when you mention the dog on the video is for sale and you have what looks like an e-mail address as your name. I'm sorry that's what advertising is all about, then add the fact that she has mentioned being a member of the Dogtra e-collar team. 

Blunder
I always thought that reading dog and being fair to the dog were the prime goals in dog training. Oh! and also coming up with a finished product, because in any kind of bird-dog trials competition that's what it's all about or the trainer is out of business.

*Trust me Lardy doesn't use an e-collar "pager"
Have you ever been to Handjem to see how Mike trains?

Their training program, regardless of the fact that they are very fair to the dog, can still only be described as "force training".

Regardless, collar use is not what sets Mike Lardy apart from other dog trainers. In the 50+ years that I have been playing dog games I have only seen one other trainer that even comes close to Mike's ability to read dogs, and that was Rex Carr.*

I have stated book reading before on the forum.

*I would not get on there going on and on and pager collars?? and learning principles with e-collars are well documented Dr Daniel Tortora wrote a book 30 years ago entitled ''understanding electronic dog training'' and Jim and Phyiliss Dobbs*

When they start bringing up the books to read, especially when I was using an e-collar 10 years previous to book publication. I lose interest. I see nothing wrong with the video program as long as people understand the video they see is not going to be a bad video because that will end up on the cutting room floor. You have no way of knowing how long the dog has been in training because there is no trainer I know going to put a bad video out there. I train the dog and then the owner gets a DVD of their dog doing the work with instructions on DVD on how to handle and continue work on their dog. It's not a DVD of a dog with 5 years of work before the taping as that would be worthless to the owners. *I'm not saying that anybody on forum is making bogus DVDs/Videos,* I'm saying, I am very pessimistic about stuff. Oh! I am a negative type trainer and I have no dogs for sale. So this would be a very bad self type advertising program. This is not meant to offend anybody, it's the real life dog world as I see it.


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## blunder (Sep 2, 2008)

> Blunder
> I always thought that *reading* dog and being fair to the dog were the prime goals in dog training. Oh! and also coming up with a finished product, because in any kind of bird-dog trials competition that's what it's all about or the trainer is out of business.


Absolutely, but Lardy takes it to a completely different level.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

blunder said:


> Absolutely, but Lardy takes it to a completely different level.


Well, if there is a Tiger Wood in golf, a Tom Brady in football etc. There is the same with dog trainers. That's the way life is, what disturbs me is the would-be contenders that do the talk, but not the walk. Then when you ask about something they immediately start telling you books/articles/studies/DVDs to read/look at. It's mind-boggling, when a new customer drops their dog off I am asked at least 2 questions for sure, 1. How am I going to train their dog? 2. How much am I going to be working their dog? 1. I show them the Prong Collar and explain how I work. 2. I explain that I don't know how long I am going to work their dog, might be dly, might be twice a day, might be every other day. I tell them I have to get inside the dog's head. The dog will tell me, not a book.


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