# A good slicker?



## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

I need one. I have a Mars t-handle slicker with the plastic nibs on the pins. I bought it because I thought Mars was a good name but I think I need a hard pin slicker. I saw these: http://www.chrissystems.com/slickers.htm

I have a big dog (27") with a double-coat that is sometimes grown fairly long.

I can get an Evolution, but I figure there must be something a little more crafty.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

What kind of grooming are you trying to do? Finish grooming is where most slickers would be used, like after you've done all the undercoat work and just need to smooth things out. A slicker isn't the best tool to use for all grooming applications esp. with coated breeds. There's a few groomers on the site, hopefully they'll chime in, but if he is a long double coated breed I would suggest a greyhound comb, shedding blade, and then a nice slicker/bristle brush to finish him off. I have to use all 3 on my english shepherd, but on my lab all I use is the shedding blade, and with my boston, toy fox, and boxer they get the shedding blade finished off with a good bristle brush.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

It would be helpful to know what breed of dog you have, as then I could make a better recommendation as there are literally hundreds of slickers out there. But since you asked for a nice firm slicker, my favorite firm slicker is 

http://www.petedge.com/product/Groo...Slicker-Brushes/pc/190/c/214/sc/276/54130.uts

It is great at removing undercoat, detangling and shining up a thick coat. Chris Christensen has some great slickers, but they are fairly soft, and better as a finishing touch, or when used on single coated breeds where there is worry over breaking coat.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

I wish I'd discovered Chris Christensen brushes years ago. I use the T-Brush on both my double coated mutt and my long haired Norwegian Forest Cats. It's the only brush that has the cats asking for more.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

I use it in combination with two Greyhound combs, Mars Coat Kings, a Mars pin brush and I have this Classic Groomaster® Heavy Duty Wood Utility Comb - which is just a very coarse comb with a wood handle.

The dog's a Bouvier. So for regular daily grooming or several times a week I've heard two different techniques mentioned. One is (I saw a Youtube video demo of this) to use the slicker first to straighten the ends of hairs and get everything going in the same direction, then follow that with a very coarse utility comb to comb out any matts starting to form. My current slicker won't work for this technique so I've never tried it successfully.

What I do is straighten the hair with the utility comb first. Then, if I'm going to use the Coat King (not every time to avoid thinning too much), I rake the coat with that. After the utility comb and the Coat King or not, I use the Greyhound combs, coarse, then medium, sometimes fine. After this, I can use the Mars plastic-tipped slicker that I have on the back, rump and shoulders. I don't think it's the right tool for this dog. I use a Mars pin brush on the legs.

I have no prior experience with grooming or the tools and I usually have to buy a tool and try it before I have any idea how it's going to work. I've been able to return a few tools that didn't really work out for me but other times I keep a good tool even if it's not what I need or what I'm using right now.

One time I tried an Evolution rotating pin undercoat rake. This seemed like it would be a right tool for the dog but when I tried it it was worthless. The relatively dull pins just rode over the coat, but it may have been because the dog just had puppy fluff at the time. I returned it and switched to combs and the Coat King strippers, no rakes. Now with the adult coat, this is still working but I don't know what I'm missing not having a slicker or a rake. So I'm trying to get some Internet intelligence.

Oh yeah, the dog is a pet from working bloodlines. I groom to take care of him and for fun not for show.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

That is great that you are working so hard to keep your dogs coat in shape. The slicker I recommended above will work great on a bouvier. Remember to always line brush, and remove as many tangles as possible with the slicker, before you comb. And personally, I would get rid of the coat kings and the like. *shudders* at the thought of using them on a bouvier coat. lol If you are liking the results, keep going for it, but what that tool is doing is cutting and breaking coat..and it is breaking/cutting coat at different lengths, causing damage to alot of the hairs..damaged hairs matt and tangle and you will find you need to keep using the coat king in order to get anything thru the coat. You may notice that about a month after using it, the coat is standing up, frayed and messy looking? That is the coat king result. You would be MUCH better off thinning the coat with debulking thinning shears. You cut close to the skin, up under the coat..I am sure there are videos of that, and if not, I can make one and post it. Really, the only brush/comb tools you need on your dog is a good slicker and a greyhound comb (coarse/medium teeth). Thats it. And I would use a poodle comb after the slicker, but before the greyhound comb, if you are having a hard time gettng the greyhound comb thru the coat.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

I appreciate the advice. It's especially interesting to hear your take on the Coat Kings. I thought they were working good but I don't really know what I'm doing to be honest.

Here's the take I've had on them thus far:

A bouvier technically should be hand stripped for show but the process is typically passed on for pet and working dogs. My dog is both a pet and from working bloodlines which (in strictly grooming terms) means he's not going to have the huge show coat that is bred for in the show lines (although his coat is quite a bit more than some of the really sparse Rouler's type). It also means that I wouldn't ever consider showing him because he has faults in conformation that would lead us no where in the show ring. The idea of showing "for fun," well, I'd rather blow my brains out. Therefore I groom strictly for health, everyday appearance, and practicality -- which means I clipper the dog and sometimes quite short.

The Coat King, and similar dematting or stripping rakes are sold with the premise that they will strip the dead fur out of the undercoat. It's sold like a lazy man's stripper or the next best thing to hand stripped. That's the sales premise anyway. I might also add that plenty of the top Bouvier sites recommend this type of tool (which means it's popular not necessarily correct).

When I use a Coat King, I can pull (or cut) out tons of undercoat. I react to this in opposite ways: first I think, wow, look at all that stuff I took out. This thing works great. This is akin to the German Shepherd owner that removes Pomeranian-size heaps of fur out of their dog with a Furminator believing their shedding problem is now solved, only the Bouvier owner thinks that he has stripped the dead undercoat in a few passes of the rake -- what would have taken hours hand stripping. Of course, eventually the second thought comes: This thing is removing a lot of the coat's mass and isn't a thick, heavy coat what we're after? I'm not sure if I'm using the right terms here, but I believe the goal with a show dog would be to grow as much healthy coat as possible and remove as little as possible and only the dead hair at that. So obviously the concern with the Coat Kings is whether they are only pulling the dead hair or if they are cutting the healthy coat. Of course we know that it's some of both but how much it is and how much is acceptable we haven't decided. I figured that if I combed the coat out before using the stripping rake, that I would minimize the cutting. In terms of my actual results, I've been clipping the hair too often (like 5 weeks) and too short to really tell.

As you can see, the concern that you mentioned is one that occurred to me but which I didn't previously consider as seriously since I had never heard such a strong opinion against the Coat Kings. I have no affinity to them so I can certainly try putting them away. I'm going to be growing the coat out to full length after I clipped it for the last time this summer about two weeks ago. I clipped the body to 3/8" (#4) except of course the beard, face, brow and I left the leg furnishings longer. He looks like a Schnauzer. Of course I like the long proper Bouvier cut better but I hate to see him hot and of course he acts like any kind of sun is going to be the death of him. I don't really know if the short cut helps or not but it seems no matter, after 9AM he only wants to flop on the stone floor in the air conditioned kitchen and sleep until 5 or 6.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Graco22 said:


> And personally, I would get rid of the coat kings and the like. *shudders* at the thought of using them on a bouvier coat. lol If you are liking the results, keep going for it, but what that tool is doing is cutting and breaking coat..and it is breaking/cutting coat at different lengths, causing damage to alot of the hairs..damaged hairs matt and tangle and you will find you need to keep using the coat king in order to get anything thru the coat. You may notice that about a month after using it, the coat is standing up, frayed and messy looking? That is the coat king result. You would be MUCH better off thinning the coat with debulking thinning shears. You cut close to the skin, up under the coat..I am sure there are videos of that, and if not, I can make one and post it. Really, the only brush/comb tools you need on your dog is a good slicker and a greyhound comb (coarse/medium teeth). Thats it. And I would use a poodle comb after the slicker, but before the greyhound comb, if you are having a hard time gettng the greyhound comb thru the coat.


I've read much the same as Bart regarding the coat king, the lazy man's stripper. I know you've turned me away from them in the past for the same reasons. I was wondering if there was any situation in which you would recommend a coat king?


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Bart, yes, a Bouvier is technically a handstrip. However, its not what I would consider a true handstrip. Show bouviers are still debulked with thinners, and shaped with tools other than handplucking and stripping knives. But yes, you DO want to leave coat in them, and not thin them out too much. The placed they would be thinned/debulked would be areas where you want to accentuate the dog, level a topline, show angulation, etc. And all this is done very meticulously and carefully, and great care must be taken of the coat, as it needs to be kept in top shape and undamaged, as long coats take so long to grow back if there is damage. I would highly doubt that a good breeder/handler with top dogs would dare touch a coat king to their bouviers. But I don't doubt that there are plenty that will. I know many breeders and groomers that use them and I see the results in the dogs' coats. I used to use an English Setter in grooming contests, until it got to the point that the breeder would use the coat kings to "cheat" (setters are "handstrips" like a bouvier) at home and the dogs coats were so ruined I haven't been able to use one of her dogs for almost a year now. However, these are show dogs, and not "pets" so there is a difference in what people are looking for in acceptable coat conditions. Since you are clipping your dog down periodically, its not a huge issue, but in the winter, when you grow him out, if you keep using the coat king, you will find more matting, and a distressed broken coat rather than a nice healthy laying coat. 

Yes, coat kings are sold as a "lazy man's stripper"...and they can feign that look...the very first time you use them...Then, as those broken and CUT hairs grow back, they force the topcoat to stand up, stick out, and the growing back undercoat is different layers and looks a mess. Many things are sold as something, but that doesn't mean its not with its drawbacks. They are just marketing their product. Coat kings have blades. They CUT hair..but they don't do it systematically, creating and even trim. They also pull and "split" hairs and undercoat, causing split ends, fraying coat and other damage. And if you are dematting with them...well, they do the most damage then, but dematting at all is damaging coat. True stripping is pulling the coat out, NOT cutting the coat...coat kings cut the coat, and anyone who says they don't is lying or misinformed. If they weren't to cut the coat, then why have blades on the underside? Why not just curved tines if they only pull undercoat out? And keep in mind you are not "just" cutting out undercoat..you ARE cutting topcoat as well. The tool cannot tell the difference..its just cuts and pulls whatever hair is there. On most pets, its a non-issue if you are keeping them trimmed short. If you want a nice healthy fuller coat, you will see the damage. 

Many people use them every day, both pet owners and groomers. Groomers are trained to see the damage that a pet owner may not notice. The pet owner may notice that their dog doesn't look at good as so-and-so's dog, but not know why. I believe even "just" pets can look like show dogs, and even in a short "pet" trim, a dog can still look like a thousand bucks with the right tools, and know how. But thats my job. ;-) 

If you are happy with the coat king results, by all means keep using it. But start to pay special attention to the way your dog's coat lays, tangles, ease of brushing out, etc. Compare your dog's coat to the way the show bouv's coats lay, etc. Just because your dog isn't a "show" dog doesn't mean that he can't look his best and be as easy as possible to care for.



RaeganW said:


> I've read much the same as Bart regarding the coat king, the lazy man's stripper. I know you've turned me away from them in the past for the same reasons. I was wondering if there was any situation in which you would recommend a coat king?


The whole idea of stripping is to PULL hair out by the root(NOT cut it)..this encourages a new coarse hair to grow. In terriers particularly, if you cut those coarse hairs, that hair clogs that folicle, and no new coarse hair grows back. Just undercoat keeps coming back. Undercoat is lighter in color and softer in texture. This is why when you see, for instance, an Airedale walking down the street, it looks grey and buff..but the show dogs are black and red. The pet airedale walking down the street is clipped, not stripped, and all that is left on the dog is undercoat..the coarse coat is gone, as is the color. Coat kings cut the hair...not pull it out from the folicle..Any good show breeder/handler of ANY stripped breed would not touch a coat king, (or the copy cats) to their show dogs. Not in a million years. Its negates everything they are working for by stripping the dog. This can apply to pets as well, as I believe every pet should look their best, whether stripped or clipped. There are ways to keep some color and texture while still clipping terrier breeds..Carding is one of the best ways. I find coat kings and the knock offs to be alot of hype, and thats it. I hate that they indescriminately cut hair and pull hair, stretching it and breaking/fraying it and just causing alot of coat damage. That coat damage makes the coat dull, makes it stand up and look frizzy and then when it starts growing back (particularly the undercoat) the layers it has cut in the coat make whats left of the top coat look even worse..splotchy, broken, standing up, etc. 

I'm rambling now..lol Honestly, I haven't found a good use for them yet. I have 3 though..one coat king, and 2 Oster ones...I never use them..they just hang there...someday, maybe I will find a use for them...Every once in a great while, I will use my 8 tooth one to thin out a face on a kerry blue, clipped airedale, or clipped wire haired fox terrier..just a few strokes...but thats once in a blue moon. I know alot of groomers use them on pants on doublecoated breeds like goldens, shelties, collies, border collies, etc..to "thin" out that area so poo is less likely to catch there. I used to use them for that too when they first came out. But after seeing the dogs come back 6 or so weeks later, and the hair is poofy, broken off, standing straight out and impossible to brush thru, I realized it was the tool causing this..I use debulking thinning shears now instead, and have MUCH better results, both immediately and 6 weeks later. Many use the tool and love it..I am not one of them because I have such an eye for broken/damaged coats..LOL I am a perfectionist I guess.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

Graco22 said:


> .... I would highly doubt that a good breeder/handler with top dogs would dare touch a coat king to their bouviers. But I don't doubt that there are plenty that will. I know many breeders and groomers that use them and I see the results in the dogs' coats....


Yeah, I should qualify my comment about their mention on top bouvier sites. Those are working bouvier sites where the main goal is schutzhund titles and such and grooming is a practical necessity and the experts in this area are vulnerable by reason of paying as little attention as is practically necessary. I agree that there is no doubt that anybody serious about showing their dog would never touch a Coat King to it.



Graco22 said:


> I believe even "just" pets can look like show dogs, and even in a short "pet" trim, a dog can still look like a thousand bucks with the right tools, and know how. But thats my job. ;-) ....Just because your dog isn't a "show" dog doesn't mean that he can't look his best and be as easy as possible to care for.


I feel that my dog should look more like ten thousand bucks because if he hasn't cost me that much, it won't be long. We're talking about grooming in this section but I put a lot into training him and feeding him too. I want him healthy, on his best behavior and looking good too.



Graco22 said:


> You would be MUCH better off thinning the coat with debulking thinning shears. You cut close to the skin, up under the coat..I am sure there are videos of that, and if not, I can make one and post it.


I looked for a video on this and the first one I found was this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6vy4NnsrTQ

In it you demonstrate carding a Golden, and debulking the long hair behind the hips with the thinning shears.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Bart said:


> I looked for a video on this and the first one I found was this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6vy4NnsrTQ
> 
> In it you demonstrate carding a Golden, and debulking the long hair behind the hips with the thinning shears.


Yes, what I am doing on the pants (behind the hips) is what you can do on a bouvier, all over, to remove bulk. This will not damage the coat like a coat king will. Again though, whatever you find is working the best for you. If you like the results from the coat king, keep going for it. ;-) I just don't like em and the results they leave.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

Graco22, you mentioned carding the Terrier breeds as a way to keep some texture when they are clipped. And you demonstrated carding on the Golden. Would you card a clipped Bouvier for the same reasons? I'm guessing not because you didn't mention it but I'm curious why or why not?

Also, I saw your video doing the Golden's feet. Previously, I would scissor (I'm still using blunt tip kids scissors because the puppy doesn't sit still at all) or just shave the pads flat with a #30 blade. I saw a demo of this where the demonstrator dismissed doing anything in-between the pads so I hadn't but I noticed how quickly the fur would be getting long between the pads. A few days ago I found some pretty hard knotted mats in there, so today I took out the blunt tip scissors and took them out. Then after I saw your video on the golden feet I went ahead and clipped out between the pads with my #30 (shortest blade I have).


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Bart said:


> Graco22, you mentioned carding the Terrier breeds as a way to keep some texture when they are clipped. And you demonstrated carding on the Golden. Would you card a clipped Bouvier for the same reasons? I'm guessing not because you didn't mention it but I'm curious why or why not?
> 
> Also, I saw your video doing the Golden's feet. Previously, I would scissor (I'm still using blunt tip kids scissors because the puppy doesn't sit still at all) or just shave the pads flat with a #30 blade. I saw a demo of this where the demonstrator dismissed doing anything in-between the pads so I hadn't but I noticed how quickly the fur would be getting long between the pads. A few days ago I found some pretty hard knotted mats in there, so today I took out the blunt tip scissors and took them out. Then after I saw your video on the golden feet I went ahead and clipped out between the pads with my #30 (shortest blade I have).


Yes, you can certainly card your bouvier out, especially after clipping. Because of the texture of this breed's coat, you probably won't see alot of difference if you do or don't do it, but it won't hurt. I forgot that you have him clipped down short, and that is where you are going to be able to get the most out of carding. When the coat is long/breed standard, carding is not going to work, but instead you will just cause more damage to the longer coat/individual hairs. Carding works best on shorter, smooth laying coats, like harsh coated terrier bodies, and goldens, labs, etc. 

I always shave out the pads on any and every dog in my salon, regardless of the breed, and all my competition grooming dogs, unless its a sporting breed. Sporting breeds call for the hair to be scissored flush with the pad to help keep brush and burrs from hurting the sensitive skin between the pads, so in competition, I must keep with the breed standard. However, house pets do not have the need for this, and it lasts alot longer when its shaved out rather than scissored flush, as you have noticed. Also, it does matt in there, quickly. I use a 40 blade, but a 30 blade is pretty darn close.


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