# Who here feeds raw - or wishes they did



## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Okay, not a debate. Just curious who feeds raw or wishes they did? I know a few of you already, but I'm sure there are a few that i'm not aware of.


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## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

I don't, but the more I'm reading, I'm definitely getting interested - sounds expensive though. Somehow I can't imagine feeding Molly human grade food, chicken legs, pork, steaks, etc. Have been concerned about money (or lack thereof) my entire life.

At least you *know* what your dogs are getting when you feed them raw. Hope you get a lot of responses to this thread.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Okay, not a debate. Just curious who feeds raw or wishes they did? I know a few of you already, but I'm sure there are a few that i'm not aware of.


I've been feeding prey model raw for 6 years, but of course you already know that.


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Ted eats raw ocassionally. He was eating more, but since I have to sit with him and hold it so he doesn't eat the bone whole (been there once don't want to do it again)..It's become to much over time. If I were able to just give him raw I would without any hesitation.


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## MyRescueCrew (May 8, 2008)

I do now, after months and months of research. My head was spinning when I first started, though I have quickly gotten used to it. I started Jake on raw about 3 weeks ago. I use Nature's Variety pre-made, and I add in other fresh meats, like fresh chicken and ground turkey. I saw great results in Jake -- he's lost weight, he has more energy than he ever has, beautiful coat, and no more itching!

I was so impressed, I started Bo on raw 2 days ago, and I am starting Callie on raw tonight. In this coming week, I plan to put Katie on raw as well. Audubon and Blue will follow in the future, however they are both large dogs (Audubon is 50+ pounds and Blue is 70+ pounds) so I want to wait until I transition to my new job next week and a bit more money is coming in.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Canadian Dog said:


> I don't, but the more I'm reading, I'm definitely getting interested - sounds expensive though.
> 
> 
> > It's no more expensive then feeding a premium or middle grade kibble. I feed 2 Great Danes and 2 cats on around $70/mo.
> ...


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I've been feeding prey model raw for 6 years, but of course you already know that.


Yep, I pretty much knew you did  

Raw is intriguing to me. I am interested, but like I'm sure most dog owners...I'm not quite sure about taking the plunge. I like the idea of KNOWING what is going into my dog. 

I'm curious about the whole bone percentage thing. I know you say that it usually works itself out. How do you know what percentage your dog is getting? How do you know when a bone is big enough that it would be safe to give? Why would a smaller bone (chicken wing) be dangerous to a larger dog? 

Like a chicken quarter. This has bone right? How do you know what percentage of the quarter is bone vs meat? More questions...but I gotta run. B-day dinner


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Raw is intriguing to me. I am interested, but like I'm sure most dog owners...I'm not quite sure about taking the plunge.


It took me a year to decide to feed raw. I thought about it, decided against it, saw something else, looked into it again, decided againt it and finally saw something (I can't remember what) and decided to give it a go.  Thats a big reason I post about raw now to help cut down on that year of indicision.



> I'm curious about the whole bone percentage thing. I know you say that it usually works itself out. How do you know what percentage your dog is getting?


I just don't worry about it. The exact amount isn't critical. Feed anywhere between 5% and 30% bone and your dog will be ok. He would probably be ok if it were even more bone. Excess calcium is excreeted through the kidneys. If you are curious USDA has a web site where you can look up all the nutrional information on each animal part by part. The site is at http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/
Enter the word "raw" into the search criteria. For example, "raw chicken", "raw beef", etc. This site will tell you the percentage of bone in a particular part. For example, a chicken quarter is 35% bone.



> How do you know when a bone is big enough that it would be safe to give?


I don't remember what size dog you have a chicken quarter is a good size for most dogs. A chicken back or breast is ok to feed most dogs also. Some people feed their dogs 1/2 chickens.

To answer your question ... give him a particular part ... if he swallows it whole, don't give him that again.  I would be careful with drumsticks, thighs, wings, and chicken necks.



> Why would a smaller bone (chicken wing) be dangerous to a larger dog?


For giant dogs like mine, it really doesn't matter. They regularly swallow pieces much larger than a chicken wing or neck but for medium size dogs, the way a chicken wing is shapped with the moving parts and all, they could possibly get lodged in the throat. I've never heard of a dog being seriously injured by one but I've heard of some owners being scared half to death. Chewing is an important part of a dogs health and well being so anything you feed him that he just swallows whole is not as good as something he must chew.


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## heidiann (Feb 3, 2008)

*Raises hand* We do...since December, 2007.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Sigh. I used to feed raw...now I don't anymore, but I really wish I did.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm not sure if you'd call them medium or large..they are all about 55-60 lbs at a good lean weight. Large maybe? So, with them being basically they'd each require approximately 1.1 lbs food per day? Is this right? 8-9 ounces?



rosemaryninja said:


> Sigh. I used to feed raw...now I don't anymore, but I really wish I did.


If I may ask, why can't you anymore?


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## poodlemom (Nov 27, 2007)

My two standard poodle girls eat raw, since the dog food recalls. 

I have had no problems, and the "skinny" one has put on a few needed pounds. My younger gal was just in for a checkup and rabies shot, and the vet pronounced her at a "perfect" weight.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> I'm not sure if you'd call them medium or large..they are all about 55-60 lbs at a good lean weight. Large maybe? So, with them being basically they'd each require approximately 1.1 lbs food per day? Is this right? 8-9 ounces?


For the entire meal, the dog should be fed 2-3% of its body weight. Whether it's closer to 2% or 3% is reliant on your dog's metabolism, activity level and things like that.

Going with rough averages - 58 lbs being a healthy weight for them, and 2.5% being the percentage of that body weight that worked for them - it would be about 1.45 lbs of food (meat, organ and bones). Of this, about 10% should be organs, 10-20% bone and the rest should be meat. So that's 0.15 lbs organs, maybe 0.2 lbs of bone and 1.1 lbs of meat. 



> If I may ask, why can't you anymore?


It just got way too time-consuming. I always say raw isn't as much of a hassle as it's often perceived to be, and I still believe that, but at the end of the day it still takes a lot more time and effort than just scooping kibble. My local food sources don't even stock enough meat at once for me to buy a month's worth of food, so I have to buy and package weekly. I'm at work 10-12 hours a day and top of spending time with my family, walking the dogs for an hour...I just need to save time where it will hurt the least.

I still fully believe that a raw diet is the best thing you can feed your dog and I continue to recommend it to everyone who can afford the time. I will inevitably return to raw when my lifestyle is more accommodating.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I have been feeding one dog raw for a few months now. I started both my dogs on homecooked because of the food scares and health issues last year and started him on raw bones this year going all raw very gradually. 

He loves it. He is a medium sized dog that acts like a toy dog in way too many ways. A chicken neck did get swallowed whole but caused no trouble. I love the way he bites to break the bones up before swallowing his chicken wings. He doesn't do as good a job with chicken legs as he does with pork ribs and scapulas, there are some white bits in his poop with the chicken legs.

He weighed 33 pounds for years and now is over 40 pounds. So the original 12 ounces have been dropped back to 10 ounces of carefully weighed out bony meat, meat and organ. Okay, he cleans up after his sister and gets lots of treats besides that. But the meals are carefully measured!

His coat is really black this year and longer than it has ever been. His teeth are whiter although even homecooked improved his teeth. His attitude is better. He is a spooky suspicious dog and while it could be maturity he is now eight years old and that seems late to achieve serenity. Okay not serenity less spooky.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Yep, I pretty much knew you did
> 
> Raw is intriguing to me. I am interested, but like I'm sure most dog owners...I'm not quite sure about taking the plunge. I like the idea of KNOWING what is going into my dog.
> 
> I'm curious about the whole bone percentage thing. I know you say that it usually works itself out. How do you know what percentage your dog is getting? How do you know when a bone is big enough that it would be safe to give? Why would a smaller bone (chicken wing) be dangerous to a larger dog?


There is a good sticky at the top of the food section on the forum with loads of websites to read, get informed, and then decide which type of raw feeding plan is best for you. Then most members end up coming back here to ask questions and those of us who feed raw are happy to help.

As far as bone to meat ratio, a few tidbits to remember... poultry is almost the perfect ratio and a great place to start since it is an easy protein for most dogs to process initially. Once you get started then I suggest you take notice of your dog's stool every once in a while (I'll admit in the beginning I went out with my dogs every day!). If the stool is hard and white chalky then they are getting a bit too much bone. If the stool is runny, dark then they are getting a bit too much meat. And it's not something that you need to adjust every day. If they happen to have a meal with a lot of bone one day, that's ok. But you watch for trends. I don't think any of us (even me who is a biochemist by trade) figures out exact ratios or the exact contents of the food we feed. But since I have easy access to labwork I have taken the opportunity to be sure that my dogs are healthy in every way (chemically). If their results are in the correct range then I feel they are getting a balanced diet.

As far as cost I find raw feeding to be cheaper than premium kibble in my area. There are very few good kibble products here for $1/lb. Yet even though I don't have any great resources, besides the sales at the grocery stores and the "almost expired" bin at the grocery, I have been able to feed my dogs for under $1/lb...and that's including some special needs such as paying a butcher to grind some stuff for my two gals with missing teeth.

Easy?...I think feeding raw is just as easy as feeding kibble. I will admit that I tend to be a very organized person. So when I find a great sale at the grocery I bring it home and portion it out right away into containers that feed one meal each for 3 dogs and a cat. So each evening I pull out whatever I need from the freezer for the next day and keep it in the fridge to defrost. I open one container in the morning and dole out the meals, same in the evening. I actually find kibble to be more trouble since I don't have places that sell the premium stuff nearby and it's a chore to go buy kibble.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

My dogs get one raw chicken quarter each once a week, mainly for their teeth (and for a treat). Sometimes a whole 2-pound fryer chicken, if they're on sale. They like that. 

I am intrigued by the thought of going fully raw. But.....I'm decidedly NOT organized, so it would be hard for me, I think, and I'd have to get a deepfreeze (my freezer isn't so big). Also, because raw meat is mostly moisture, the dogs need more of it than they do kibble....so even if I can get raw for less than a $1 a pound, the kibble would still be cheaper altogether. And the thought of buying meat for 3 large dogs, their combined weights over 250 pounds, is daunting. Plus I hate handling raw meat.....ick ick ick. I don't even eat meat at home, not even cold cuts. OK, I think those are all of my excuses  .


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I am intrigued by the thought of going fully raw. But.....I'm decidedly NOT organized, so it would be hard for me, I think, and I'd have to get a deepfreeze (my freezer isn't so big).


A big freezer is definately a big plus. I buy most of my dog's food in bulk. Tomorrow I am going to order 170lbs of raw dog food. It will cost me around $60 or $70. I never know exactly because prices fluctuate.



> Also, because raw meat is mostly moisture, the dogs need more of it than they do kibble....so even if I can get raw for less than a $1 a pound, the kibble would still be cheaper altogether.


Thats not true. Even with the moisture factor you will probably feed less raw food than kibble. Kibble has A LOT of filler. I feed raw for much less than a good kibble cost. I will warn you that it takes months to learn how to shop for dog food and to line up sources. The meat I'm going to order tomorrow will probably have an average cost of around .50/lb.



> And the thought of buying meat for 3 large dogs, their combined weights over 250 pounds, is daunting.


Hehe, I have 2 dogs with a combined weight of around 300 lbs.  I also feed raw to 2 cats.



> Plus I hate handling raw meat.....ick ick ick. I don't even eat meat at home, not even cold cuts. OK, I think those are all of my excuses  .


Well, thats something you will have to learn to handle. If you can handle a chicken quarter, you should be able to handle most anything else.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> Well, thats something you will have to learn to handle. If you can handle a chicken quarter, you should be able to handle most anything else.


Hehe. I remember having to handle fish roe sacs. Possibly the first occasion in the whole time I fed raw that I actually felt squeamish. Great source of Omegas though...


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

briteday said:


> There is a good sticky at the top of the food section on the forum with loads of websites to read, get informed, and then decide which type of raw feeding plan is best for you. Then most members end up coming back here to ask questions and those of us who feed raw are happy to help.


Thanks briteday. Yep, I've read all those stickies before...although it's been a while. I'll freshen up on it and think about it some more. I think the prey model diet is the way I would go.


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## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

I feed raw as well. Other than the overall better health of my crew, cleaner teeth and no more doggie breath I really love the next-to-nothing messes in the yard to scoop up now. Before I could nearly fill up a bucket each night when on 'do-do duty' and that was with 'premium' kibble. Now what I scoop up, every two or three days, barely covers the bottom of the bucket and I'm cleaning up behind 6! (1 xxlg, 3 large and 2 med.) 

Jihad
and the raw fed pound puppy crew.


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## Canadian Dog (Nov 3, 2007)

If I could feed Molly for less than a $1 a pound, that would be great. The last 28 lb bag of kibble was $58. with tax. I'm going to start reading more on raw. Thanks for the info - keep it coming.


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## Sunshyne (Feb 5, 2008)

I wish I did... I read all the stickies, all the GREAT posts by Briteday, searched online for weeks.... and like many others my head was spinning. I still don't get it. Maybe it becomes easy after getting into the hang of it, but right now I feel like I don't have the time to do it the right way.

So I took the easy way out and went with Nature's Variety raw medallions and Chloe is doing amazingly well on them. I give her some marrow bones and raw chicken wings here and there.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Sunshyne said:


> I wish I did... I read all the stickies, all the GREAT posts by Briteday, searched online for weeks.... and like many others my head was spinning. I still don't get it. Maybe it becomes easy after getting into the hang of it, but right now I feel like I don't have the time to do it the right way.
> 
> So I took the easy way out and went with Nature's Variety raw medallions and Chloe is doing amazingly well on them. I give her some marrow bones and raw chicken wings here and there.


Which parts of it do you have trouble understanding? I (and the raw feeders here, I'm sure) would love to help you out.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

I do...

Started about a month ago.

Became interested in March or so...

In April, I decided we would switch, as I thought it would be especially good for Kim. Decided to wait until I did more research and until after we had moved, as I didn't want to deal with raw food and potential tummy issues while switching states. 

Thanks to the help of several key members here plus a lot of independent research, we actually started in July and things have been going well.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

I have since July 30th. So about 2 weeks or so. JUST in 2 weeks I have notced improvements.

The dogs feel MUCH slicker and their coats SHINE like they never have

No doggy breath (or very little- doggy morning breath is still a killer)

My backyard, more specifically my side yard (read doggy bathroom) no longer smells nor attracts flies.

The dogs seem... I dunno.. calmer. They still have tons of energy, but they arent hyper. My SO actually commented on how easy going Chance has been, and Chance now has a spot next to Erik on the bed that he sleeps on!


But thats just my results, and they may be biased because I am looking so closely. But I like it. The chicken is dirt cheap, and I know I have to add more in and mix and such, but the chicken will always be a part of their daily diet.

I am buying a fridge with a freezer on top for my garage. I will freeze meat in the freezer, and defrost a week at a time or so in containers in the fridge. We will also keep beer and water bottles in that fridge as well. So it takes a lot of dedication, but I portion everything out in ziplocs way ahead of time, and it just depends on me remembering to take the meat out of the freezer, which today I forgot


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## heidiann (Feb 3, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> So it takes a lot of dedication, but I portion everything out in ziplocs way ahead of time, and it just depends on me remembering to take the meat out of the freezer, which today I forgot


I was really organized in the beginning and now I'm kind of laxed and I forget to take things out the freezer more often than I care to talk about. 

In fact, yesterday's dinner was partially frozen...whoops. 

Tomorrow I'm breaking down 40lbs of fresh chicken backs to freeze. Always a fun task. 

Definitely takes longer than scooping kibble, but with having an epileptic dog, I need to know what he's eating and the benefits have outweighed the inconvenience 100%.

Oh and I noticed a difference in behavior as well.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

heidiann said:


> Tomorrow I'm breaking down 40lbs of fresh chicken backs to freeze. Always a fun task.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Whenever I find a sale on something or have tons to portion out I try to remember the time I'm saving because I shop for their food at the same time I grocery shop for the family. And I don't have to spend 30 minutes out and back, plus standing in line time, to buy dog food. I would guess that my monthly time spent portioning dog food adds up to maybe and hour or two, depending on what I find on sale. But I have small dogs so my volume isn't as great as if you have large dogs. A good knife, scale, and plenty of containers/baggies (I keep everything in a box on top of the freezer so it's all in one place when I need it) are good things to purchase up front.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I feed raw. I'm feeding a semi prepared raw diet called Urban Wolf. Kuma's a big fan, lol.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Canadian Dog said:


> If I could feed Molly for less than a $1 a pound, that would be great. The last 28 lb bag of kibble was $58. with tax. I'm going to start reading more on raw. Thanks for the info - keep it coming.


I feed my two for less than a $1 a pound.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I have fed raw for over 8 years now.... 7 retrievers and a cat... soon two cats. I have weaned three litters to raw food. I am happy to say that many of my puppy people have also kept their puppies on a raw diet and they are all doing well. 

I dont feed a prey model diet as I believe our dogs are far removed from their wild ancestors..... 

I feed what I like to refer to as the 
"Variety is the spice of life diet" 

Like my own diet, I feel that as long as you feed a good variety of foods.... it all works out in the wash in the end.... 

s


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

I don't feed raw, but wish I did We fed Lloyd raw for a little bit, but could not find cheap meat and it really grossed Julie out. Eventually the dogs will probably be on raw, when we get a house maybe and I have a place to feed them where Julie doesn't have to see and hear them eat (like a backyard or basement!). When we are better $$ wise I might be able to convince her to feed a premade raw. They do still get raw once a week, to keep their teeth clean. I just give it when Julie is not home. Usually its a turkey thigh or neck (the cheapest stuff I can find usually). 

edit: I would prefer to feed a prey model raw diet, but IMO a premade would be better than kibble, with some turkey thighs now and then for the teeth. If I can convince Julie


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## musicmom116 (Jul 8, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Okay, not a debate. Just curious who feeds raw or wishes they did? I know a few of you already, but I'm sure there are a few that i'm not aware of.


No we don't feed raw, in fact I never even knew people did that till I joined this forum last week. It really is not something that I intend to do.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

musicmom116 said:


> No we don't feed raw, in fact I never even knew people did that till I joined this forum last week. It really is not something that I intend to do.


Because you've never heard of it before?



I just started. Sadie is LOVING it. The cats are more apprehensive, but apparently that is the way it goes. I am so excited. We're going to do prey-model but we need to work up to it, for me AND them.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

jesirose said:


> Because you've never heard of it before?
> 
> 
> 
> I just started. Sadie is LOVING it. The cats are more apprehensive, but apparently that is the way it goes. I am so excited. We're going to do prey-model but we need to work up to it, for me AND them.


That's cool jesirose. Are you doing the pre-made raw diet now?


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

No, I'm just doing chicken parts. I bought some pre-made to try the cats on, and they don't like it. Sadie ate a medallion and then threw it up so I am going to toss the rest of them honestly. I am worried about the quality of them.

It's a lot easier to do prey with cats than dogs I'd think, because you can get whole stuff easier and cheaper than stuff for dogs but it will take a while to get there. The cats won't even touch anything raw right now. Which is SO weird because when they love so much people food, but I've read that cats take a long time to switch if they've been eating kibble.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> Thats not true. Even with the moisture factor you will probably feed less raw food than kibble. Kibble has A LOT of filler. I feed raw for much less than a good kibble cost. I will warn you that it takes months to learn how to shop for dog food and to line up sources. The meat I'm going to order tomorrow will probably have an average cost of around .50/lb.


Are you sure? Because Moose weighs about 125 pounds (I'm not positive, because he's scared of the scale at the vet's  , but he's around that), and he eats 4 cups of Chicken Soup a day, which I believe is about a pound. I can get Chicken Soup for about 94¢ per pound. According to the raw feeding advice, he should get 2%-3% of his body weight in raw food daily, so he would need at least 3 pounds a day. Even if I got the raw food at 50¢ a pound, that would still be a 50% increase in feed costs. Of course, I'm sure it's worth it.......it would just take some time for me to adjust. Although it's possible that he needs less then the 2%-3% body weight that's recommended. He's not high-energy, and his caloric needs really dropped after he was neutered. 

Anyway, I intend to go raw (for the dogs at least....the cats won't even look at raw meat, not even the former strays) someday. Maybe. I get a little nervous about being solely responsible for my dogs' diets  . I think I would prefer being able to blame the dog food companies if my dogs have dietary issues  .


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Are you sure? Because Moose weighs about 125 pounds (I'm not positive, because he's scared of the scale at the vet's  , but he's around that), and he eats 4 cups of Chicken Soup a day, which I believe is about a pound.


You may be right. The problem is raw feeders measure in pounds and kibble feeders measure in cups. I don't know how many cups it takes to make a pound. One of my 145lb Danes eats about 2lbs a day and the other eats 3 or 4.



> I get a little nervous about being solely responsible for my dogs' diets  . I think I would prefer being able to blame the dog food companies if my dogs have dietary issues  .


I really like having control of my dog's diet. I know they aren't eating garbage. If you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals, you will be fine.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I feed raw - whole prey model

I browsed through most the other post. 

Expense, to me it is not that expensive. Dog food prices (and meat too) vary so this is just in my area. Mid grade is $0.85-1.20 per lb, there really are not choices of premium foods close to me but some higher quality ones would be $1.75-2.00+ per lb. So I think the cost of raw vs kibble is going to depend on the brand, quality and price of the kibble you are feeding. Then of course the meat use common sense, you don't need to feed your dog the highest quality most expensive cut of steak or anything. 
Meat cost ranges 0.50 - 1.00 per lb on average. Great sales are 0.30 per lb. I know not all have either of the following options. Wild game varies on the price but it is usually cheaper overall then the commercially available meat. Self grown is cheaper with basically only the feed cost involved. 

Dogs don't chew up bones into itty bitty pieces. This is an example of some bones left over from a poo one of my dogs did. 









Others chew it up smaller and a couple have pooped out larger piece of unchewed bone. Which isn't a good thing of course, it rarely happens but some revert to nearly gulping with barely chewing at all. Actually had one do that who was never a gulper and one day I gave her the food she grabbed it and tried to swallow it, which she could not because the pieces were too big, she had to slow down and do it right. 

Generally dogs should eat between 2-3% of their body weight daily. Growing pups can eat 5-10% daily sometimes less though, depends on the age of the pup, how active they are and if they are going through growth at that time (as it can change from time to time).

Not every dog is the same. My large dogs one is almost 120lbs the other is over 70lbs and both eat 2lbs a day. One is eating just under 2% the other is eating over 2.5%. Two of my pups are only eating 3.5% now although they were eating more before, they've slowed down. The other still eats 5%. Most of mine are eating 2.5%, a few 1.6 - 2%, the ones that are eating more then that (3.5 - 5) are still growing pups.



Mac'N'Roe said:


> I'm not sure if you'd call them medium or large..they are all about 55-60 lbs at a good lean weight. Large maybe? So, with them being basically they'd each require approximately 1.1 lbs food per day? Is this right? 8-9 ounces?


I don't think that would be enough IMO. 8-9oz would be like 1%, if you feed that twice a day it would probably be fine. You'd just have to watch and adjust as needed. I think with their ages that you'd probably need at least 2%. 1.1lbs of food would 2% and probably close to right for them, which would be 17 some odd ounces. So I'm not sure if you meant 8-9oz twice a day, if so that'd be right. 



RawFedDogs said:


> You may be right. The problem is raw feeders measure in pounds and kibble feeders measure in cups. I don't know how many cups it takes to make a pound. One of my 145lb Danes eats about 2lbs a day and the other eats 3 or 4.


Yeah that is the thing the cups vs oz. How many cups of kibble it takes to make a lb depends on the feed. People need to take that into consideration. You could have 3 different feeds, 3 cups of one could = a lb, 3 cups of another could = 12oz, 3 cups of another might be 18oz. It depends how much each kibble weighs. 

If you have a lighter feed you might have to feed more cups of that feed vs another to the same dog. Maybe feed 2 cups of one but have to feed 3.5 cups of another lighter feed. Other things to consider is not food density always either, but how digestible it is. If you have a lighter food that has a higher digestibility you might have to only feed a dog 3 cups for that food even though it weighs less then the other. The other food might weigh more but still have to feed the same dog 4 cups it is less digestible and more filler. I learned this with my friends dogs when going from a cheaper kibble that was heavier to a little bit better kibble that was lighter, they still ate less of the lighter kibble. 

I'd rather feed my dog 18oz of a whole prey model diet vs 14oz of kibble even if it seems like their weight is maintained on that kibble and they "look ok" as people like to say.


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## Chico'sMom (Apr 10, 2008)

I am seriously considering feeding raw now. I have read the sticky at the top, and all the recent posts about feeding raw and it sounds very interesting. We are getting ready to move, so I wouldn't switch until after the move, but I am definately going to check out the stores near the new home for chicken prices. 
The only concern I really have is with the bones. I have always been told you should never give a dog chicken bones, but as long as there not cooked it is ok?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Chico'sMom said:


> The only concern I really have is with the bones. I have always been told you should never give a dog chicken bones, but as long as there not cooked it is ok?


Correct. Bones are not a problem. Dogs have been eating them for millions of years. They know how and their bodies are very well equipped to do it.


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## bodinr (Sep 6, 2007)

I don't feed raw but I have a question for you all. I have a yellow lab that is 1yr old and has always scratched himself a little now recently he has started chewing on himself to the point that the hair is starting to thin. I feed him native brand food #2 http://www.nativedogfood.com/level2.html can some one look at the ingredients list and tell me if this food is any good.
Thanks


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

bodinr -- I wouldn't feed that food to my dog. It's not the worst thing you could feed, but I wouldn't consider it a good food.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

bodinr said:


> I feed him native brand food #2 http://www.nativedogfood.com/level2.html can some one look at the ingredients list and tell me if this food is any good.
> Thanks


It's a pretty poor quality food. A lot closer to the worst than the best.


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## bodinr (Sep 6, 2007)

bodinr said:


> I don't feed raw but I have a question for you all. I have a yellow lab that is 1yr old and has always scratched himself a little now recently he has started chewing on himself to the point that the hair is starting to thin. I feed him native brand food #2 http://www.nativedogfood.com/level2.html can some one look at the ingredients list and tell me if this food is any good.
> Thanks


Ok thanks for your imput but what is a high quality food?


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

To give a short answer, I would recommend you looking at this thread. There is a list of pretty good quality foods. See what is available to you, what suits your dog's dietary needs and digestive system and fits within your budget.

http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/16952-whole-dog-journals-top.html


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Looks like a mostly grain feed. There are many post here about higher quality feeds.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

hmmm. I'm really starting to consider this. I guess if I cannot stop thinking about it...I should give it a try. Seems like the right thing to do for me (and my dogs).

I'm going to start looking around for an international grocery....I'm sure there's something close around here. There's an international farmer's market close..although that may be to "commercial" . When you guys say you go to the local butcher, are you speaking of the butcher at the grocery store..or a bonafide local butcher? I haven't seen one of those around lately.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Seems like the right thing to do for me (and my dogs).


There can be no argument. It absolutely is.



> I'm going to start looking around for an international grocery....I'm sure there's something close around here.


I use a regular grocery with a butcher in house but ethnic markets and grocery stores are great places to find food. There are many many many places to find foods. Hunters, packing houses, wholesale places, slaughter houses, restaurants, farmers.



> When you guys say you go to the local butcher, are you speaking of the butcher at the grocery store..or a bonafide local butcher? I haven't seen one of those around lately.


It's difficult to find butcher shops. Heck its even difficult to find grocery stores that cut their own meat these days and its getting more difficult all the time.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Have you looked? There are two within 5 miles of me, but I didn't know they were until I looked.

So far I have gotten my meat from Costco, a local mexican supermarket, the local butcher, and I will be getting some stuff from a local rabbit farmer, and I also ordered from prey4pets.com because they are having a sale. And I just started  Wherever you go, ask for case prices - assuming you get a freezer. If your town isn't big enough to have some ethnic markets then it's probably small enough that you can get in touch with farmers lol.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Gabi has already had UTI (pretty bad), ear infections and conjunctivitis since I rescued her (Memorial Day weekend). She has the ear and eye infection right now. Roe's ears are starting to itch and she's always had stomach issues...I have to give her pumpkin each meal just to keep her relatively solid. Mac's pretty healthy, but he's got mange which has continued to cause a secondary bacterial infection of the skin. 

I'm at the vet once a week at a minimum. Well, I was there Tuesday and she looked and said surprised "it's been 18 days" since we saw you last. They were surprised. I'm there once or twice a week, it's insane. Is that normal?


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> I'm at the vet once a week at a minimum. Well, I was there Tuesday and she looked and said surprised "it's been 18 days" since we saw you last. They were surprised. I'm there once or twice a week, it's insane. Is that normal?


If it were normal, would they be commenting on it and would you call it insane?


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm hoping that a better diet will eliminate these types of illnesses. Maybe it's because I'm a new dog owner and am not familiar with how much a dog would normally go to the vet. Granted, Roe's been pretty healthy..no issues. Mac has mange, so that's mainly why he's been in frequently..for treatment. Gabi has had multiple issues since we've adopted her..the conjunctivitis was going around the neighborhood (my neighbor's dog had it). Perhaps its coincidence....but hopefully a better diet will help ward off these types of things. Maybe I'm expecting too much???


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> I'm hoping that a better diet will eliminate these types of illnesses. Maybe it's because I'm a new dog owner and am not familiar with how much a dog would normally go to the vet.


A raw diet may or may not eliminate those problems but it will certainly help with them. My dogs go to the vet once a year for heartworm tests and thats it. My 8 year old has just developed a bad hip so the trips may increase slightly.



> Maybe I'm expecting too much???


If you are expecting your vet visits to decrease then I think you will probably be pleased once these problems are taken care of.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

I'm not expecting a miracle cure, but I hope the vet visits will decrease eventually


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> I'm not expecting a miracle cure, but I hope the vet visits will decrease eventually


I have had my 8 year old for 7 years and until the last couple of months, she had been to the vet 7 times since I got her. My 3 year old has been to the vet 4 times in his life.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

liveforthis said:


> would i just toss her a steak or a chicken thigh and say eat up? I don't have to worry about choking....And by bones, do i just give her a raw femur or something?


You need to do a little research first. It's not real complicated but you kinda need to know a little about how to go about it. Check out his web page: http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm 

It should give you an idea about how to start. No, in general you don't have to worry about bones. Just give her animal parts with or without bones in them. Things like chicken backs or quarters. Femur bones are the one type bone you need to be careful of. Many people give them to their dogs but I have known several dogs to chip, break, or crack a tooth on them. The bones to avoid are the weight bearing bones of large animals. They are just too dense. If you feed a proper diet, there will be plenty of bones included in their meals.

If you have more questions after you read the link above (you will), feel free to ask.


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## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

Just to join in the thread (and I admit, I think this is a cool topic) I am a part time raw feeder. At present, I live with my in laws (just shoot me in the face please) and I do not have room to store meat right now. However, I do frequently get them raw foods and 'supplement' their diets with it. Eventually, I would love to go full time on this. They also get kibble (boo to that if you ask me, but what can I do right now?) and they also get canned food. When I get canned, I like to get merrick canned foods and other high quality stuff when possible (we are kind of broke presently so I do what I can for my fur kids). 

I also hunt so deer and small game season will hopefully stock the fridge/freezer in the garage that is the "deer" freezer. My dogs' diets do vary depending on whats available and what time of year it is. In the summer, Sarge likes to partake in fruits. He doesn't get a LOT but he loves the stuff so he gets a bite here and there. Hunter, on the other hand, won't touch the stuff. During hunting season, they tend to get a lot of venison. This year I am hoping to add squirrel and rabbit to the menu. I will be freezing that stuff thoroughly first so no need to warn me about that 

I respect all you BARF er's decision, I just think prey model suits me better. It is easier and not as exact, so there is more room for measurements and I don't have to worry about every little thing, just hand over the carcass and watch my little wolf wannabes go to town. 

They are only on raw part time but I do notice changes in my little dogs poop (my big dog has never ever pooped while I was watching him so he is a mystery, he hides it somewhere). The poop is smaller, firm, sometimes chalky white (too much bone perhaps) and less smelly. Their teeth are awesome; I used to brush them and lately I have ben lazy about it but the bones they work on seem to really help. I still have issues though, Hunter has dry skin lately and Sarge's skin is a mess due to his allergies but I think they are not getting raw consistantly enough so I will keep my eye on it and try to offer more goodies. 

Hope this helped....hope someone even read it! LOL. GO RAW!!!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I do.

feed raw that is.


chicken, turkey, beef, bison, venison, rabbit, game hens and much more...

I even ordered a little alligator not too long ago to cut up and use as treats. they love it. 

I will never feed kibble again. no offence intended to those who do.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

musicmom116 said:


> No we don't feed raw, in fact I never even knew people did that till I joined this forum last week. It really is not something that I intend to do.


If you read some of what's on this site you may change your mind. I have both of Tom Lonsdale's books & they certainly open your eyes.
www.rawmeatybones.com/petowners.php
I've also been watching the videos on this site too! www.rawmeatybones.com/tvVideo/video.php


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## 2puppimsmom (Mar 16, 2008)

I feed raw. I have for almost 14 yrs. I feed a 112 lb GS, a 50 lb German Shepherd, and a 60 lb mixed breed puppy. It is cheaper than expensive kibble. And i know that my fur kids are getting good food. It is all human grade food. And we don't have as much poo to clean up in the yard. And my dogs teeth are clean and they don't have bad breath. They have beautiful soft and shiny coats. And they haven't had any sickness. The oldest is 10 yrs old. One is 18 months old and the puppy is 6 mos old.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

liveforthis said:


> So you feed chicken to them? how much does that run you? I've read the articles online but i would like to get some info from someone that actually does it.


Hi! I have been feeding raw for just over a week and it is not expensive! If I buy chicken breasts, thighs, etc in the stores I can usually find for under $2/lb. Other things like necks, backs, feet, about $1/lb. I just got a box from prey4pets.com and it's very reasonable, I got about 30 lbs of many different kinds of things (heart, liver, tripe, rabbits, necks, backs, all sorts of stuff) for $60 including shipping, so it's $2/lb for that. That is because I wanted the grass-fed, organic stuff. Once people really get into it and find sources, they say they spend less than $1 or even 50 cents! My local butcher says they have 35lb boxes of chickens for $17. I just don't have the space yet! I have kept a chart of all the money I spent, what I fed and when, and for the cats it's been about 40 cents a day, the dog closer to $0.80-1.00. And I just started. Even though it's a bit more expensive and slightly more work, it's worth it!


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Chicken necks and backs are more bone than you need regularly, you need to add in plain meat as well. The "rule" is 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ (half of that is liver). If you do a bit of searching on google or something, you can find lists of how much bone is in each part. Also make sure the parts you give are appropriate size so they chew, not swallow whole. If you give a huge dog a tiny chicken neck, that won't work. But a whole chicken they can pick apart would.

They say do chicken for 1 or 2 weeks, before adding other meats or any organ. But if you just do the real bony stuff the dog will have digestive problems, so you need meat too. I am doing prey-model so just trying to get as close to a real animal as possible, or whole ones, not ground up. If you use BARF you grind it up and add stuff, and I don't agree with it. So for Sadie's first week she got some chicken breasts, a neck, thighs, wings, and even some feet. Then she moved on to a whole rabbit. She even tried liver and gizzards. I went faster with different meats than most people advise because I didn't know to stick to just chicken, but she did fine. 

I don't want to tell you what to do because I JUST started but I have gotten a lot of good advice from several yahoo groups, if you go on there, and also the websites on here such as rawfeddogs, and this one: http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

Go on the yahoo groups and read the past messages and you will find answers to a lot of questions.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

liveforthis said:


> so i start with chicken for the first week? chicken necks and backs?


Personally, I wouldn't feed chicken necks. Drumsticks, breasts, quarters and backs are fine for the first two weeks. After that you introduce one new meat at a time, very gradually, just a bit at a time. After chicken you can add some turkey, maybe 2-3 weeks later some pork, 2-3 weeks later some beef...and so on.

You will also need to feed organ meat, but that won't happen till you've been feeding raw for about a month. 

You also need to do some reading up on how to get your dog's diet properly balanced. It's not at all as difficult as it looks, but some knowledge is required before you delve into raw feeding.

Here are some helpful links:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/
http://www.daybreakaussies.com/raw_feeding.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/nutrition.html
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

You can feed them as many times a day as you want. The % value just tells you the amount to feed per day. Your dogs should eat 2-3% of their body weight each day. For example, say you feed 2.5% of your 45lb dog's weight every day -- that means he should get around 1.125lbs of food per day. Whether you feed 1lb in the morning and 0.125 lbs at night, or feed about 0.4 lbs three times a day, is completely up to you.

As for bones, almost anything is suitable. You want to stay away from leg bones because they can be pretty hard on a dog's teeth. Ribs, drumsticks, knuckles, fish bones, chicken backs and quarters...are all fine.

You don't need bizarre meats. You don't need things like kangaroo or alligator. You do need to feed a *range* of meats, but that just means mix it up a little, don't feed chicken at every single meal. Feed pork, fish, turkey, venison, lamb, beef, prawns, whatever's available to you.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

There isn't a recipe book or schedule. Just feed what works. 

How old is the dog? Puppies should eat 2-3 times, adults can do once. Many people do "gorge and fast" where the dog gets a huge meal then fasts the next day. Assume the 80-10-10 ratio is over a week and just feed what fits. My dog is smaller so I use smaller items so hopefully someone else can tell you what items will work for a large dog. 

Did you look at this thread
http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/15085-feeding-raw-where-start.html

You want to feed 2% of your dog's adult weight to start, and adjust it if he needs more or less. An 80lb dog needs 1.6 lbs of food each day. a 45lb dog only needs .9 lbs. That is over the day so if you feed two meals just split it up. 

I don't know anyone who feeds kangaroo, not sure where you're getting that from. You don't need bizzare stuff, you need basics. Chicken, beef, turkey, lamb, pork, fish. Meat, bones, organs. 

It's not a "program" that someone has designed - well BARF is but like I said, I don't like that, so if you're talking about the prey-model style that several of us have posted about, you don't follow a program or plan, that says feed chicken one day, beef the next, etc. 

This site is good too: http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes

You could check out the stores near you, find some chicken, and post what you want to feed on here or the yahoo group and people can help you from there, but I don't think anyone will say "feed this this and this exactly". I know, it's overwhelming  That's why I waited 4 months to try it.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Weight bearing bones of large animals like cows are not edible, that means femur (that's a leg right?). 

One of the sites we linked to says "If you have a Chihuahua, try a chicken thigh. If you have a Golden Retriever, try a chicken quarter."

I think a lab is the same size as a golden, right? So there you go. 

It also says "Avoid feeding the weight-bearing bones of large herbivores—femurs, knuckle bones, etc. These bones can easily break a dog's teeth. These, among chicken necks and wings, are the most complained about bones."

This page has answers for a golden retriever too: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080713150731AA04RUc

Read this one: http://rawfed.com/myths/feedraw2.html

The reason I keep listing websites is because all that info is written down already, by people who know it


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

There are no specific bones to feed for any particular dog. You just feed size appropriate whole food that includes bones. I have little dogs so I don't expect them to chew down and swallow a beef rib bone. The idea is to feed more whole animal since you will need to balance the calcium and phosporus ratios (not as hard as you think, watch their stools...white chalky stools is too much bone, runny dark stools is too much meat).

Poultry are considered to have a pretty perfect calcium : phosphorus ratio if you feed the whole bird including the little bag of organs they include in the gut cavity of the bird. So feeding poultry is pretty easy if you feed the whole bird over a period of time. You don't just sling a whole chicken at your dogs. I usually cut it into quarters (roughly, dogs don't care), figure out the amount you are supposed to be feeding each dog (2-3% of body weight per day for adult dog, up to 10% of body weight for a puppy), get a little postal scale and weigh the food until you get the hang of what a portion looks like, and put it in their bowls. If the dog is getting too skinny after a couple of weeks then you increase the ration, getting a bit chubby then you cut back. But over time the dog should eat all parts of the chicken (some parts are bonier or meatier than others so it balances out over time) including the organs. For my smaller dogs I tend to take a mallet to the chicken legs as they are too hard for them to crush with their teeth. But a medium to large dog could easily eat anything from a chicken without much trouble. 

Once your dog is doing well on chickens (most of us started with chicken because it is a bland protein, easier to digest for most dogs, as it takes time to build digestive enzymes in the gut to process raw food vs. kibble...most of us have seen a bit of GI distress in our dogs during the first few weeks on raw) then you can add a second protein (beef, pork, turkey, fish...all including the bones) the second week. I generally wait a week between proteins just to see if they can handle the new one alright. 

After you get them going on various proteins, probably a few months down the road from the start, then you need to add the organ meat especially liver to about 10% of the daily diet. 

For more information there is a ton of good stuff at the top of the food section page on the forum giving you all kinds of websites that raw feeders rely on for information. It takes a while to do the research and get it right, as well as stock up a bit on chicken before you start.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

liveforthis said:


> So you feed chicken to them? how much does that run you? I've read the articles online but i would like to get some info from someone that actually does it.


Yes, chicken is a good starting place. To give you an idea of what it costs to feed 2 Great Danes and 2 cats. Last week I bought 180lbs of "dog food stuff". Chicken backs, quarters, and drumsticks as well as turkey necks and beef heart. I paid $130 for all of it. That works out to be $.72/lb. That much stuff will last me 2 months. I may buy a pork roast or 2 and some beef liver to add to it, but the $130 is the greatest majority of what they will eat the next two months.



liveforthis said:


> so i start with chicken for the first week? chicken necks and backs?


Check this website for step by step instructions. http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm If you have anymore questions, come back and ask them. 



liveforthis said:


> I know every dog is different but what exactly can i feed my medium (45lbs) to large dogs (80lbs+)?


You can feed him the meat, bones, and organs of most any animal you want to. Chickens, turkeys, pigs, cows, deer, rabbits, squirrels, lamb, goat, all those animals from austraila  or most any other animals.



> I only feed them once a day? Most articles say a % per feeding...how many feedings per day i assume its one but thats me assuming.


I suggest starting them on two meals a day for the first several months. Feeding large meals CAN cause digestive upset in dogs not used to digesting raw meat, bones, and organs. After the first several months, you can feed once a day if you wish. I know many people that feed every other day and a few that feed 2 or 3 times a week. 

Most articles say a % per DAY. It is only a starting point. You will always keep an eye on your dog's build and will adjust amounts up and down depending on whether he is getting fat or thin.



> I would like to start this program but not sure exactly what bones are suitable for my dogs.


Read the web page I gave you earlier, it will answer most of your questions. It is a short easy read.



liveforthis said:


> what i mean is for my lab and ridgeback what kind of bones do i feed them? I guess necks are too small but femurs are too big. I want to know what kind of bones for large dogs basically so i know what i'm looking for when i find a butcher.


Forget the concept of feeding bones to your dogs. Feed animal parts that happen to have bones in them. Feed large things rather than small. For your dogs, a chicken back or chicken quarter would the the smallest I would go. Necks, wings, drumsticks, and thighs are too small.

Don't go to a butcher and ask him for bones to feed your dogs. He has no concept of what your dogs need and he will give you some pretty bare bones. You want a lot of meat surrounding a nice scrumptious bone.

Don't think you can cram all this stuff in your head before you begin. It is a learning process and you will learn as you go. You really don't know the questions yet. Go get some chicken backs and/or chicken leg quarters and give each dog one in the morning and one in the evening for the next 2 weeks. Don't feed anything else. You will know what to feed at the end of that 2 week period. When it's time to add another meat, you will know what it is. You will soon learn what to feed, what organs are best, what bones are best and how to buy the food for your dogs. It will take several months to learn how to buy meat, bones, and organs for and average of $.72/lb. All this is a learning process and you can never learn it all until you begin feeding.


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