# The Nosework Thread



## elrohwen

I didn't want to hijack Laurelin's previous nosework thread, so I decided to start a new one. Post about your experiences with training/classes/trials/etc.


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## elrohwen

Watson and I took a two hour nosework seminar yesterday and he *loved* it. It was mostly an introduction to the sport, demos, and then each dog in class got to do two rounds of searches for food among a bunch of boxes. The first round, Watson ran right for the correct box, but I was worried that I had inadvertently walked in that direction and lead him there, since I knew where it was. The second time, I actively tried to walk away from the box to encourage him to search, but he literally dragged me to the correct one after only a few seconds of searching. I'm very proud of him! Many of the other dogs had fun with it, but clearly weren't 100% sure what was going on. Watson was like a duck in water - he knew exactly what we were doing right from the start. I had to laugh that the other best dog in the class was a little cocker with no real nosework experience (though he did have obedience scent discrimination experience). Go spaniels! 

The woman who ran the seminar is going to start classes at our training facility in a couple weeks, and I'm excited to sign up. Watson puts up with the obedience training and show training because I want to do it, but I'm pretty sure if you asked him, nosework would be his choice. His hunting instincts are strong.


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## Laurelin

Woohoo! I love nosework. But my dogs love it more. I really think it is their favorite thing.

Tonight we are transitioning Summer over onto odor. Will be interesting to see how smoothly it goes. Mia took right to it. I did some hard hides for Mia last weekend at the agility trial and she did great even though we haven't practiced in a long time.

For the first week or two I am pretty sure Summer thought the game was to knock over all the boxes until food appeared magically. She's cute and kind of spastic but not so methodical. 

Mia took right to it with purpose. Paps are pretty darn good at tracking and nosework type stuff. They're also spaniels though. Yay spaniels!


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## dagwall

Jubel LOVES nosework classes. We've just started the transition from food hides to pairing food with birch. Jubel really loves the thrill of the search even more than the reward of food. So much so that he often ignores the treats I'm giving him for finding the hide and runs off to find the next one. I think I'm going to have to up my game next week to higher value treats as we're working on pairing the food and birch smells in his brain and the longer I can keep his head in the box taking in the birch smell the better. 

Last night was the first hide they tried with just birch in the box (with some hot dog residue from prior use) and he was right on top of it. I'll likely sign up for the odor recognition test at the NW1 trial that will be hosted very close to me on June 2nd and watch the trial maybe. Not sure how interested in trialing I am but of all the activities we've tried it's the mostly likely event for us to continue with.

The one draw back I've found is that the classes build so slowly. I understand why for the most part but part of it feels like just sucking more money out of us. The way our program is set up nosework I class introduces the concept of searches with boxes and such. Nosework II builds on that with exterior and vehicle searches and looses the boxes gradually. Now I'm in nosework III and we're just introducing birch and basically go back to square one with boxes but paired with odor and food. This class will build up to birch odor without food pairings and maybe loose the boxes. The next class will re-introduce exterior and vehicle searches. 

As I said... a lot of build up at $190 a pop... but Jubel loves it.


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## Laurelin

I think the first chance we will have at an ORT is next fall, sadly.


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## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> I think the first chance we will have at an ORT is next fall, sadly.


Yeah this one will be about 15-20 minutes from my house so I think we just have to try because it so close.


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## elrohwen

I actually have a question about trials. There aren't a lot around, but there is one being held in my town in a couple weeks. Is it something that spectators can drop in and watch? Unfortunately it sort of overlaps with our first conformation show on Saturday, but I could probably go on Friday or Sunday to check it out.

I love hearing about everyone's experiences. I knew it was something Watson would enjoy and be really good at, so I'm glad I can learn more and actually take a class. I don't know if I care about trialling, but it would be fun to work on around the house once I know how to teach it.

His biggest issue will be waiting his turn, I think. I brought a crate and he was being good in it, but the instructor really wanted everyone to put their dogs in the car. Watson doesn't do well with being separated from people, and I know he'll shriek in the car and be anxious. Luckily my husband was with us and he sat in the car (poor husband!), but I'm not sure how it will work when we start actual classes. I see the point of having dogs not watching other dogs do the searches, but honestly it would have been fine for most dogs at the seminar to stay indoors, especially in covered crates. What is the procedure in your classes?


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## Laurelin

From what I've heard the ORT sounds pretty clinical. I am not sure you can watch that because its always been described to me as taking the dog into a room with boxes, the judge and the helpers. 

Trials? I'm not sure. I have never actually been to one. The closest was several states away. I can ask my instructor though tonight. She trials a lot with her dogs.

We crate dogs or put them in the car depending on what we're searching (indoors or vehicles etc). My two are BRATS every time. They want ALL the turns. Nosework gets them so incredibly excited.


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## dagwall

In my class they have separate areas for each dog. Either behind half wall barriers or constructed blinds of chain linked fencing with sheets over them. Crates are provided and some food puzzles if needed. I have to supply a stream of tiny treats dropped/hidden in our area pretty much constantly while we wait our turn or Jubel will bark/whine. He expects to be engaged/rewarded 90% of our class time whether it's his turn or not. Haha last night the crate in our corner simply provided an obstacle to maneuver around in search of tiny treat bits. Our only problem comes with threshold tests when we are in the fenced areas... Jubel hears the sound of the magnet clicking to the fence and goes right to it from the inside... we need to be behind the half wall for a good threshold test for Jubel so he doesn't know it's already there. Jubel is too smart for his own good sometimes haha.

The last set of classes when we did exterior searches I'd put Jubel in my car instead of taking him back inside and leaving him in a crate. He'd bark the entire time or after the 2-3 minutes it took him to empty the food toy I gave him. He isn't stressed by the crate he's just unhappy not to be part of the fun he knows is going on without him.


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## elrohwen

Haha, Watson is similar with needing to be constantly engaged during classes or he shrieks at me. I was actually thrilled that he went into his crate and settled with minimal treats and interaction from me, so then I was disappointed when they still wanted me to take him outside. He is just very velcro and doesn't want to be left alone. He is ok in the car for 5min while I run into a store, but since he knows the training facility I'm sure he'd bark the whole time out of excitement if not anxiety.

I could tell my obedience instructor (who runs the facility and was at the seminar) would have preferred the dogs in crates to stay indoors, but the instructor was really against it, so we'll see what happens in class. I would much prefer setting up a blind and having him stay with me, because he'd do much better that way. Now that it's getting warm out, it might not be safe to leave them in cars anyway.


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## Laurelin

I wonder why some instructors don't allow the dogs to be crated? We had a very DA dog in our class and it went fine just having crates wih covers. 

So excited for Summer nosework. I will try to post Mia's videos tonight too layouts they are from a long time ago back when she was first starting.


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## Laurelin

Summer did well today. She's a little... scatterbrained lol. We decided that watching search made us dizzy. She goes in circles so fast. You can tell her body is working way faster than her brain because she often passes the box by a lot then almost gives herself whiplash spinning around after it registers that she smelled something way behind her. Oh... at least she's cute.

Here's some Mia videos.

2nd day with food (so second time ever)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFoVcYQlHnQ&list=UUEMit_X89sKygjypdATGzYQ&index=5


2nd day odor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuCMLVw2874&list=UUEMit_X89sKygjypdATGzYQ&index=4

Indoor/Exterior on odor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvitJ4uUbTg&list=UUEMit_X89sKygjypdATGzYQ&index=3


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## elrohwen

Mia is just about the cutest thing I've ever seen.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Mia is just about the cutest thing I've ever seen.


It's all a ploy!  

No she really is pretty much the cutest thing. She's very lucky she is, LOL!


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## dagwall

Ha, my instructor is recording classes right now as we are the first level III class. I should ask if she can send me some Jubel footage. Let everyone see him charging about in search of odor.


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## dagwall

Just spent my morning reading about nosework trials and titles ect on http://www.nacsw.net/. I'm not sure what to think about trials now and how Jubel would handle it. He'd enjoy and be good at the actual work I think but all the down time is what I'd worry about.

Sounds like it'd be close to an all day event but only about 30 minutes of that would be working. Not really clear on what we'd be doing in between our searches, sounds like Jubel would be crated or in the car... either way he isn't likely to be happy with that all day. I'll have to talk to my instructor about what really goes on with the dogs in between.

The higher levels also concern me when food can/will be used as a distraction... not sure Jubel would pass that level of distraction... EVER.

Edit: guess I have time to think about it really... While there is an ORT very close to me on June 2nd there is another on August 11th that is about an hour away and still earlier than the first NW1 trial within reasonable driving distance at the end of September, or closer trial mid November.


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## elrohwen

dagwall, I'm also worried about the requirement to settle in a car or crate for long periods of time, for classes as well as trials. That's just not something Watson is good at. He might surprise me and mellow out in a few years, but it's never going to be something he enjoys. At least in normal shows (conformation, obedience, etc) you can walk your dog around, hang out, and do whatever you want. Requiring that they stay in a car or crate is not easy for a lot of dogs.


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## Laurelin

My dogs suck at being crated but its a big requirement for any trial. I've been taking them along to agility trials I work at lately just to get them used to it. They settled in for a while after a few hours. But I think it's a case of practice helps a lot.


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## elrohwen

Watson actually did learn to settle in his crate (more or less) at our training place after doing a couple all day seminars there. I'm curious to see how he does at a show in a couple weeks. He would be far worse crated away from me though. He could be passed out at the training seminar and I would get up to use the bathroom - 10 seconds later he was shrieking.


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## dagwall

Jubel had an eventful nosework class today. We were put in the gated off corner at the back door, half way through the class I notice a mouse poke its way out from behind some floded up x-pens. Few minutes later Jubel notices and seconds later mouse is dead. Bad news is that he was distracted the rest of the class trying to find the mouse or anymore mice after it was removed. Good news is I didn't have to engage him with treats and tricks he was quietly focused on mouse hunting.

I had them put up a barrier where the mouse disappeared as far as Jubel is concerned and as I predicted he kept trying to get over there. He'd search the boxes real quick then run back over to the corner, call he back and he'd search again, and after each find he'd go back to the corner. Hopefully he won't still be in mouse hunting mode next week when we are in class again.


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## SydTheSpaniel

Here's Sydney's 2nd attempt at nose work. Unfortunately I can't find any places in the area that offer classes for nose work, so for now we're improvising! What can I do better? Am I doing anything wrong? I used Zukes treats this time because the puperonies gave her major gas and soft stool this morning... as high value as those are.. I think Zukes works just as good, without the gas.. lol I really enjoy this activity and I think Sydney's enjoying it as well.  So any advice, tips, new ways to make it fun and more challenging - tell me!


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## dagwall

My instructor posted the videos from class up on YouTube, here is Jubel searching at maniac speed. The boxes are a combination of food paired with birch and a few with just birch alone.


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## elrohwen

Fun videos! Jubel looks so happy. I love when he sticks his head in the box and starts sliding it along. Haha


We have our first nosework class tonight! There was enough interest that they are doing two classes of 6 people each. They sent out a note with everyone's names and I think I know some of the people in our class (hard to say when you mostly know first names). One might even be the brittany puppy that Watson was in puppy class with - I'd love to see her again.

I'm kind of nervous though. Dogs have to stay in the car while other dogs work, and Watson is going to shriek the entire time. At least it's going to be cool and rainy. Depending on his behavior this might be the only nosework class that we take (it's 6 weeks) and after that we might do it at home for fun. Based on his previous experience with it, I think he's going to get the idea very quickly.


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## dagwall

Haha yeah the boxes baited with food I usually brace with my foot when I get to them while I reward from my hand. He'd keep pushing the box all the way across the room if I didn't haha. 

The boxes you here big cheers for and the instructor rushing in to treat as well are the ones that are just birch, without lots of very quick rewarding on those Jubel is in and out of the box in a matter of seconds. After the classes that where recorded I actually scaled up to deli turkey meat as rewards to help keep him in the boxes longer and it really helped. Jubel will work for kibble no problem but he loves searching so much you need a really high value treat to get him to actually stop at the birch hides longer than the few seconds to check for hot dog haha. If there is enough interest we are going to have a little workshop Friday night as an odor recognition test practice. I think at least one person from my class signed up for the ORT on the 2nd of June, I decided to wait until the next close one in August as there are no trials around here until November. Jubel seems to understand the game now includes birch but isn't at the point of stopping when he finds birch and looking to me for his reward, ideally we'll be there by August.


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## elrohwen

We had our first class last night. There were things I liked, and things I didn't. It was definitely a blast for Watson, and with only 4 people there (2 didn't make it) we got a lot of turns. He got the idea of the boxes pretty quickly, but it was funny to watch him figure out different things the food could be in. I could tell he smelled it, but kept checking the boxes in the area instead of the cone that the food was in. The next time, he was all over the cone, but took a little while to figure out it was by the step stool. Funny stuff. Watching the other dogs was also really fun.

The part I didn't like is that it was a no obedience zone. I see the reason for that with dogs who are well trained and very handler focused, but since Watson's problem is impulse control, I feel like it set him back. By the last few finds he was dragging me into the training facility. I would have preferred to have him walk nicely and sit at the entrance to the search area, then be released to search as a reward for that.

Is that something that is allowed? I'm going to talk to the woman about it next week, because I think letting him drag me around and get overly excited is going to ruin the work I've done to get him semi-relaxed during training classes.


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## dagwall

It's a double edged sword when it comes to obedience and nosework. You want the dog excited for the game and to work on its own without looking to you for direction or permission. For a young dog like Watson it might be hard for him to understand no rules while searching but have to follow rules the rest of the time. In my class you CAN ask your dog for a sit and release to search but it isn't encouraged for the most part.

I'll freely admit that Jubel gets really excited at training classes and loses some manners. He'll try and drag me into the facility and he'll jump up on the instructors because he's just so excited to train. Honestly I don't really mind in this context. If he started doing that out in public all the time then I'd need to address it, just in a class he loves I'm okay with. But Jubel is 5 and Watson is under a year old, I'm sure your results will vary from mine. The main goal of the "no obedience zone" is to not take away from their drive to search and their enjoyment of the game by adding rules.


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## elrohwen

I can definitely see why it would be important for some dogs to have the no obedience zone so they can really get into it. I was watching an older lab, obviously well trained, and he had a harder time figuring out that he was leading the show, and shouldn't look to his owner for feedback. Watson, on the other hand, has no issue with ignoring me and taking the lead. lol He listens when I specifically tell him things, but otherwise he's off doing what he wants and has zero impulse control. Plus, searching for things with his nose is his passion, so I don't see a sit/stay diminishing his drive to do it. If anything, it could help his impulse control by making him wait to do an activity he's really excited about, and increase his drive by making him wait for it.

I'll talk to the instructor next week and see what she says. Based on her personality I have a feeling she'll stick with her no obedience thing and not let me try it.

I've spent 8 months getting him calm down while in the training facility, and now I feel like it's going to go out the window. He already charges in there over-excited just for obedience class and he will finally focus after 15min of spazzing out. Haha. I don't see this as a sport I want to compete in, just a fun activity to try with him at home, so even if she won't let me use it to teach impulse control, it's only 5 more weeks and then we can go back to working on calmness during classes, and just play around with searches at home.


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## elrohwen

Went to our second nosework class last night and Watson did really well. As I suspected, he loves nosework and is really good at it. He already thinks sniffing for things is his job in life, so it's just shifting the focus from chipmunks and bunnies over to something else (and I guess food is something he already searches for in real life). 

We did a few practice searches in the basement last week and I've moved past boxes and on to hiding food anywhere and everywhere, though not yet where he can't access it. It's funny to watch because he quickly narrows down the area it's in, then checks places in that area where I have previously hidden food, then actually starts following his nose to find the specific spot. 

I'm excited to move to scents. The instructor usually waits about 6 weeks (the length of the intro class) but she said a few dogs in our class will start scents earlier because they are showing a lot of drive and clearly understand the game. It will be so interesting to see how he makes the transition and if he struggles at all. Of course he's awesome at finding food and wild animals, but the real test will be finding something not inherently rewarding.

The best part of class might be watching the other dogs. Most are sporting dogs (labs, goldens, a chessie, and a cocker), with one hound (Bavarian mountain hound) and a cairn terrier. The cairn is hilarious and one of the fastest and most enthusiastic searchers - she's really good. The mountain hound is also really good, as you'd expect being a tracking breed, but he's a little nervous about new things and takes his time - it will be fun to see if he picks up speed as he gains confidence. He generally knows exactly where the finds are as soon as he enters the area. The labs and golden are surprisingly the slowest. All are pretty handler focused and just casually sniff around the boxes until they find something. Watson rockets in, and drags me around the area sticking his face in every box and object. I think he'd actually be faster if he slowed down and thought things through, but that's not his style


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## Laurelin

Of the dogs I've seen worked, the paps and the belgians work the fastest- as in moving the fastest. Mia pulled the fastest times in her class. Summer's class is a whopping two dogs and Summer certainly moves faster but doesn't seem to find the scent faster than the other dog (lab). We've had three labs worked in my classes but they're all seniors so I'm not sure how fair that is. They're all a lot more methodical and slow. My trainer's lab x pointer x pit x something? dog is like a bull in a china shop though. she is insane. We also had a pointer that visited once and he was very similar to my trainer's lab x in search methods and wildness. 

Summer was hilarious this weekend. I'd restrain her while they set the hides and she was pulling hard trying to get going. She almost always runs out as fast as possible and laps the room then moves in and starts searching in more detail. At first I thought she was just getting zoomies at first but my trainer thinks she's actually doing one quick over of the room, which is interesting to me. She does the one lap and then seems to zone in very fast.


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## elrohwen

Watson will do a circle around the area if he has no idea where it is, though often he has an idea of at least one find right away. I wish we could let them off leash in class, because it's fun to watch him in our basement off leash. He narrows down the areas quickly, but then searches so fast that he misses it if it's not in a really obvious place. Like, he knows it's in the back left of the area, so he runs there, sticks his face in every box extremely quickly, then when he doesn't find it he'll start to move away and search a different section. But as soon as he starts to move away, he realizes it's definitely over there, so he whips around and heads back. He'll go through this sequence 3+ times and occasionally move on to another find and come back to it later. I think if he can slow down and realize that he's right about the general location, he just needs to be more thorough, he would be very quick. We've just started, so maybe as he matures he will be less frantic and more methodical. He's so funny to watch though. His enthusiasm is endless and he has so much drive to search, he just flies around at top speed. I guess that's what he was bred to do - search around a field until he finds birds. 

The bavarian mountain hound also knows the area it's in, but he takes his time and thoroughly checks the area before moving away, so he might actually complete the finds faster overall. I need to watch the cairn next week (we've been taking our turn after her, so I'm usually waiting outside with Watson) to see how she's progressed and what her style is. She's also funny because she's the only dog small enough to fit her body into some of the boxes and she's not shy about it.


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## dagwall

Videos from our mock ORT. The first 4 runs I knew where the hide was, the last two were blind hides for me. Jubel actually became a bit tired and unfocused with the game by the fifth hide and just ready to go home by the sixth. On the sixth hide he pretty much just starts playing for one of the boxes for a bit. /facepalm

Jubel likes to do a quick circuit around the area before he starts to get methodical. Trainer said it's usually the dog getting a quick overview of the area looking for any easy hides before actually working for the find. 

1st hide

2nd hide

3rd hide

4th hide

5th hide

6th hide, box attack around 2 minute mark


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## dagwall

Did our first at home practice with birch odor today and Jubel did really well. He pretty much confirmed what I was starting to expect in class last night though... Birch and food are paired a bit too well in his mind, he's started to try and eat the items the birch odor are in. Class last night it could have just been due to the hot dog slime on the odor container, tonight I just had odor q-tips shoved in a straw. More than half the time he found the straw he tried to eat it haha. Good and bad I guess.


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## SDRRanger

Any updates?


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## elrohwen

Watson has one week left of his first class, and then we move on to the next class and odors. Our class on Tuesday involved an outdoor search and it only took him one go to figure out what he should be doing (and he didn't pee on anything, but we had a few close calls where I saw the signs and got him moving again). The area was a covered concrete patio type thing with random items around from the granite company next door. By the third find the instructor was hiding food in the grass and all around the area and he was finding them quickly. He didn't even flinch when a pigeon was fluttering all over in the rafters, which is pretty impressive for a Welshie. We had to laugh that the pigeon was trying to distract the bird dog.

I'm excited to move to odor. His hunting instinct is so strong and I think he'll catch on quickly, but we'll see. Obviously food and wildlife are more self-rewarding than birch. I'm curious to see what his signal is too. I know his signal when he has smelled wildlife, so I wonder if he will use that, or something more typical like "sit". I guess it depends on whether he finds the search itself rewarding, or is looking to me for his reward. 

Personally, I still like activities that engage me more, like obedience, but it's fun to see him do what his ancestors were bred for, and do it well. It makes me wish I hunted birds so he could use his skills in the field.


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## SDRRanger

Are you going to continue with nosework for him outside of your home or just stay with it there? I've been thinking of starting Ranger at home doing a few things and seeing how he likes it. He uses his nose because from a dead gallop he'll stop, turn and start smelling a little piece of grass. 

Is their signal something that they do, or something you train them to do when they find their target? What was his signal with wildlife?


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## elrohwen

SDRRanger said:


> Are you going to continue with nosework for him outside of your home or just stay with it there? I've been thinking of starting Ranger at home doing a few things and seeing how he likes it. He uses his nose because from a dead gallop he'll stop, turn and start smelling a little piece of grass.
> 
> Is their signal something that they do, or something you train them to do when they find their target? What was his signal with wildlife?


We have done most of our nosework training in class, though I set up finds for him in the basement a couple times a week to give him something to do. Originally I didn't plan to continue with classes, but now I've decided to get him titled (at least NW1) so I will keep going to classes. After that, I'll make the decision to continue or just do it at home. It's so easy to do at home once you know the basics, though I would recommend at least one class. You can just hide food around the house and have them find it, but taking the class has given me ideas for increasing the difficulty, changing things up, and will teach me how to train scent. Some dogs in the class were slow starters, and I think having a knowledgeable instructor was really helpful for their owners. 

Most dogs develop a natural signal that their handlers learns to read. For a few dogs, the signal is so subtle, that they teach something obvious like a sit or a down. When working with food, the dog gets to self-reward by eating the food right then, so no signalling is involved, though you learn to read their body language when they get close.

Watson's natural signal for wildlife is a pretty typical spaniel thing. When he finds something, he stops suddenly and gets very tense and leans forward, right before rushing towards it (this is what a flushing dog would do while hunting). When we move to scent, it might be something more typical like sitting and looking at me.


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## dagwall

Jubel still doesn't really have a signal he gives me. Hopefully he'll start to develop one soon as our hides are more and more consistently not paired with food. He is so driven by the search getting him to stop and signal at a find is the current challenge. Right now I'm working on getting him to stay at a find for longer before running off to find more, so he gets a reward as soon as he makes any recognition of the hide and a second treat 1-2 seconds later at source. Ideally he'll stop at the hide and look to me for his treat(s). 

All of our last class was un-paired hides (just odor, no food) and on the vehicle search we even introduced decoy tins with no odor to make sure they were queuing in on the odor and not the tins themselves. Most of the dogs did check out the tins if they saw them on the vehicle but all moved on quickly when they didn't find odor or food on the tin.


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## elrohwen

Dagwall, has your instructor set a timeline for when you would start teaching an alert if he doesn't come up with one? Or is the goal to just slow him down enough that he figures out an alert on his own? This is all stuff we're just starting to talk about, since odor starts in a week or two. My instructor has taught a dog an alert, but she said he was the only one and otherwise they let the dog figure out what they want. Jubel's problem with moving too fast from find to find sounds like it would be common and I wouldn't be surprised if Watson does that.

I'll admit, I'm a bit bored with just the food finds, since Watson already understands the game and has a ton of drive for it. I'm excited to start on scent and actually have some training to do!


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## dagwall

I'm kinda jealous your classes progress so fast. We didn't do odor at all until the third level of classes. 

My instructor encourages to let the dogs develop their own alerts.  Mostly for us to really watch closely for any behavior they show at a find so we know what to look for. In general the idea is for them to expect the treat for finding the odor and look to you for their treat. Right now Jubel is more at the stage of, "ooohhh that smell, might be food there.... Nope, no food on I go" and he's off before I can reward sometimes if I was more than a step or two away from him. So I have to be right on top of him ready to reward and try and stagger two rewards per find to keep him on the target longer. Making some progress but it's slow going so far. Likely at some point it'll just click and he'll find odor and snap around looking at me for his treat... haha maybe.

It's funny really the issue of all the dogs in our class to some extent find the hide then charge off to find the next. Our instructor said they just made a change in how NACSW wants you to reward in the first level of nosework classes because of dogs staying at the same hide looking for more treats and not moving on to find more. NACSW is suggesting to only reward sometimes and not for every hide they find. She did say she has one or two dogs in the intro levels that this might apply to but the majority of the dogs seem more into the game of finding the next hide.


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## elrohwen

How many weeks are your classes? Ours are 6 and she said she generally doesn't start dogs on scent until 6 weeks. She also said all dogs in the class would progress to scent, but I wonder how quickly. Some don't quite seem ready to me while a few would've been ready two weeks ago. I hope she doesn't hold the class back because of the slower dogs. We are going from 2 class groups down to one, so I'm assuming about half the people aren't continuing on. Maybe the people whose dogs weren't super into it won't continue.


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## dagwall

6 one hour classes per level. First two are food only, third introduces odor, I'm in the fourth now and we are doing odor exterior and vehicle searches.


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## Laurelin

Here is a recent Mia video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtXTvXPZjNY&feature=youtu.be






For the discussion, I have trained Mia's alert and am working on an alert for Summer. I don't like the typical notion that you don't train an alert, you just watch for one. I dunno, both my trainers (who trial and one is certified) do NOT train an alert. I just like how it clears things up for me. Mia's alert is getting really strong.

Mia's class did 6 weeks on food, then 1 week food + odor, then pretty much straight odor most times. We only did 12 weeks of classes. Summer's class did 6 weeks of food, then 6 weeks of odor + food paired indoors and now we're doing outdoors still paired. I am finding Summer is not such a natural at it but still has a lot of fun. She's really starting to 'get it' lately and has stopped offering me tricks halfway through her search.


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## dagwall

Mia is a rockstar as always. 

We still have 2 weeks left in this round of classes but I've also joined a yahoo group my trainer is a part of and recommended that does travel classes. Basically you sign up for different dates and locations for searches. Just recently the group has gotten big enough and with enough qualified people to run classes that they've split into three levels of classes. You can buy a punch card good for 6 classes over 6 months or just pay for each class you sign up for.

This helps generalize the idea of searching at different places than home and the training facility which is good if you plan to trial. Plus working with different people who may have different ideas to help improve your training. I'm excited, first travel class I'll be going to is on the 16th.

Jubel still wants to try and eat some of the hides he finds, haha in a way that is an alert but we're hoping for something better. Before the next ORT in August we'll have another mock ORT so I'll get to see how he acts with the boxes again.


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## elrohwen

Dagwall, the travel classes sound like a great idea. 

Laurelin, Mia is awesome, as always. I love how she just jumps right up on the table.


We had our first NWII class last night and the first introduction to odor. My trainer sort of changed her methods recently, and is more or less training an alert now. Before, she said that she was against it. Now, she is having us train the dogs to stay on the odor and not leave, which is basically an alert. So we worked on rewarding when they kept their heads in the box with the odor+food and didn't let them leave until we were ready to move on. I like this technique, and having a dog who won't leave odor is a pretty good alert, whether they choose to sit/down/whatever. I have a feeling she is going to pair food+odor for a long time, but I plan to order the supplies and work on it by myself too.


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## Laurelin

I wonder why there is such a prevailing idea amongst nosework people/instructors to not train an alert. I just think it clears things up communication wise between dog and handler. For Mia's alert I just went with her natural inclination to paw at things. When she would search for mice or tree a squirrel soon enough she'd get frustrated and start digging at it. When doing nosework with her I decided once she had the game down to start increasing time between her finding it and then the cookie. She right away started digging at it. I also did reps where I had the odor in my hand then asked her to touch it. Then put it on the ground and ask for a touch. And again and again. Then when we were doing searches I'd reward for the first then sit and wait and she'd start pawing at it. I'd reward that a few times and nowadays I wait for the paw before any reward. 

I think her alert now is getting really clear. I'm glad I trained it even though my trainers are still not so keen. 

Summer does not naturally paw at things so training an alert is going to be more difficult. When she gets frustrated she will just stop working. She's just now getting to have the drive to start working an alert IMO. The game is really clicking. So we started last night asking her to paw at it in my hand. Our last search we did we rewarded immediately and then I asked her to touch it. We will see how it goes. 

One interesting thing last night was that Mia mistakenly alerted on my mop multiple times. Very clear alert. I had used it last weekend to mop with Lysol (it was brand new otherwise). I wonder if something about Lysol smells like birch?


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## elrohwen

Yeah, I like the idea of training an alert, or at a minimum to train the dog to stay with the odor (in which case most dogs are probably going to come up with some alert on their own anyway). I could definitely see Watson as the type to alert quickly, and then run on to the next one without waiting around. 

We had a new woman in our class who works with our trainer at her other facility. She had a golden who had done his ORT, but really didn't have much drive for the search. Before her turn she was telling us that his alert was super subtle and she wanted to work on that. After seeing him go, I don't know that he had an alert at all! It was just strange to see a dog who had an ORT and didn't seem interested in searching. The people in our class who chose to move on from NWI were the ones whose dogs were really into it in the first place, so it was fun to watch all of them get the hang of it.


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## dagwall

Yeah Jubel is only just now starting to hang around a little bit at a hide after he finds it before being ready to run off and find another. I think the practice we've been doing at home with just one hide have helped with that. I'll put him in a stay and walk out of sight to place then hide then release him to find it and only reward when he really commits to the hide (in many cases this is him trying to eat the straw with the odor soaked q-tips inside). Put him back in a stay and repeat. We didn't do any blind hides in class on Sunday but I'd like to do some soon as they really help me read him when I guessing too.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I like the idea of training an alert, or at a minimum to train the dog to stay with the odor (in which case most dogs are probably going to come up with some alert on their own anyway). I could definitely see Watson as the type to alert quickly, and then run on to the next one without waiting around.
> 
> We had a new woman in our class who works with our trainer at her other facility. She had a golden who had done his ORT, but really didn't have much drive for the search. Before her turn she was telling us that his alert was super subtle and she wanted to work on that. After seeing him go, I don't know that he had an alert at all! It was just strange to see a dog who had an ORT and didn't seem interested in searching. The people in our class who chose to move on from NWI were the ones whose dogs were really into it in the first place, so it was fun to watch all of them get the hang of it.


That is why I personally reward multiple times at one source. My dogs tend to move FAST, Summer especially. She finds it then is gone in a flat second. So I want her to stick to it and alert. Mia is pretty good now at sticking to the odor as you can see in the video. I also have been using 'show me' to ask for another alert. 

I think the problem is that they are trying to make nosework one standard form of training. My two dogs are very different. Both are pretty darn into it but Summer is scatter brained and not as inclined to really work at it. So she has needed more guidance and a slower more paired approach. 

I do think you will see people training more alerts. Mia is just so much easier to read because of it. I know I'm not training the official nwsc way or whatever but meh... My dogs love the game and are getting very consistent. 

We do travel and train a lot. We use the entire facility of multiple buildings, fields, and a house at the training place. We also search my whole house. Yard. Park. My group meets up every now and then at parks and stuff too.


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## Laurelin

dagwall said:


> Yeah Jubel is only just now starting to hang around a little bit at a hide after he finds it before being ready to run off and find another. I think the practice we've been doing at home with just one hide have helped with that. I'll put him in a stay and walk out of sight to place then hide then release him to find it and only reward when he really commits to the hide (in many cases this is him trying to eat the straw with the odor soaked q-tips inside). Put him back in a stay and repeat. We didn't do any blind hides in class on Sunday but I'd like to do some soon as they really help me read him when I guessing too.


At home I tend to do 1-4 rounds of 1-5 hides each. It varies quite a bit. Last night Mia did about 12 hides and Summer did 5. We do one first and I get the dog to stick to it. Reward a few times then pull the hide up. Repeat with each. 

Not sure if I will cause myself problems in the end but I was getting so frustrated by not asking the dog to stick and alert in class. When I work Mia in group sessions (ou of class now) I make sure to ask her to stick to it and alert too.


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## juliemule

I love watching the videos! Great dogs


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I think the problem is that they are trying to make nosework one standard form of training. My two dogs are very different. Both are pretty darn into it but Summer is scatter brained and not as inclined to really work at it. So she has needed more guidance and a slower more paired approach.


Yes, I very much got this impression from our trainer at first that it was a standard training method and that's how we had to do it. Nobody else at our facility really knows about NW, so we're trusting her to lead us. I like that now she's thinking outside the box a little instead of just going with the standard training, and using the experiences she's had at trials.

And I love that we're doing actual "training" now. I understand that the first 6 weeks was for building drive to search, etc, but Watson has all of that naturally. Now I feel like we're actually applying his skills to something and I need to work with him, which is much more fun for me. 

I need to take a video of him at home, just on food. We usually do searches in the basement because there are a lot of good hiding places, but I'll try to do it somewhere with better lighting and less junk all over  He's such a distracted spazz case sometimes that it's really fun to see the focus and drive he has when he's doing "his work". Makes me wish I actually hunted birds because he'd love it.


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## Cattledogfanatic

Laurelin Mia is the cutest thing ever. Ok... I think I have the dogs I want planned out for the rest of my life. Now I want a Papillon. Thanks.


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## DJEtzel

Doing some pairing with Recon tonight with a friend, wish us luck! It's been 3+ months since he's been in nosework classes and I haven't practiced at home at all.


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## Laurelin

Cattledogfanatic said:


> Laurelin Mia is the cutest thing ever. Ok... I think I have the dogs I want planned out for the rest of my life. Now I want a Papillon. Thanks.


Thanks! Summer is pretty hilarious too. 

Everyone needs a papillon.


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## Cattledogfanatic

I would love to see a video of Summer. I'm not very technology savy. It took a lot for me to even post pictures of Hunter in the picture forum. I'd love to post vidoes of things I've done with him. Yesterday, I took him out and had him find a person (a friend of mine) and once he caught on to what he was supposed to do he found her really quick. I was impressed.


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## dagwall

Me and Jubel are now NACSW registered and entry for the ORT in August is in the mail. Excited!


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## Laurelin

We did some blind hides this weekend and Mia is incredible! She is so clear at alerting to me when she's found them. Of 10 hides, she did 9 very easily but did have trouble with the last one which was put right behind a full trash can. But the rest she was on a mission and very clear in communication. My sister helped and was the one that hid the odor for us. She was pretty amazed at how well Mia did. 

I think it was good for me to see her work without me already knowing where the hides were located too. It helped me confirm that my alert I've taught her was a good thing.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Me and Jubel are now NACSW registered and entry for the ORT in August is in the mail. Excited!


Yay! I can't wait to hear about your experience with the ORT.


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## juliemule

I really enjoy this thread. It's basically what we do in detection training. Now I wish we had classes here ans could do this for training. (Would have to use different source lol)


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## Laurelin

I think it's been a really great thing to try out with my dogs! I've always wondered how they train drug detection dogs and such and now I can understand a lot of it. It's also cool to let the dog lead for once and it's amazing to me that Mia is such a natural.

For some reason (non dog) people find odor detection training to be much more impressive and interesting than the agility we do. Go figure. lol


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> For some reason (non dog) people find odor detection training to be much more impressive and interesting than the agility we do. Go figure. lol


I've noticed this too. Welshies were bred to sniff out birds in tough cover for hundreds of years so nosework comes naturally to him, but when I tell people about it they always seem really impressed and interested. Maybe it's because they think only highly specialized and trained dogs can do it, when really any dog can do it at some level.


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## Laurelin

I think it's funny especially since agility requires so much more out of me and so many specific little behaviors tied together and such good communication between handler and dog. 18 obstacles done at speed in a highly distracting environment? But nope.... my dog pawing at birch is much more exciting to most people. lol

I think you are probably right that people just don't think you can train an average dog to alert to odor. Or maybe it's because it's kind of a foreign concept to teach for them vs agility, which most people see as tricks. I've seen so many people watch highly skilled agility dogs and say their dog could do that right now. Riiiiiight.....


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## Laurelin

My favorite question so far is 'How does she know to paw at that particular smell?'

'Well.... I trained her to....'

/mind blown/


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I think it's funny especially since agility requires so much more out of me and so many specific little behaviors tied together and such good communication between handler and dog. 18 obstacles done at speed in a highly distracting environment? But nope.... my dog pawing at birch is much more exciting to most people. lol


Yeah, I honestly find nosework a little boring because I just follow Watson around. Now that we're getting into odor there is some more work on my end, but it's a natural behavior and I didn't have to train Watson to sniff or hunt for things - I'm just channeling that drive in the odor I want, really. I certainly didn't have to train him to hunt for wildlife outdoors, though if I wanted I could train him to hunt only certain animals and in a quartering pattern. Heeling or going over obstacles on cue is definitely not a natural behavior.

People definitely think of detection dogs like the ones juliemule trains - super high drive, and some still don't make the cut. I think there's an assumption that average dogs can't do it, or that it takes highly specialized and difficult training, while, like you said, agility is "just tricks".


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## Laurelin

It is amusing, because like you said, I generally follow Mia around and she does the leading in nosework. There's not much for me to do until it came to adding an alert. You're basically just increasing the drive to hunt most the time (duration and through distractions). 

One thing that is funny to me (and totally not nosework related) was that people are super impressed that Mia will jump over my arms if I hold them out. She'll do a quick circle and jump over both of them. For some reason that is much more impressive than jumping over an agility jump even though it's pretty much the same thing. lol I don't get people sometimes.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> One thing that is funny to me (and totally not nosework related) was that people are super impressed that Mia will jump over my arms if I hold them out. She'll do a quick circle and jump over both of them. For some reason that is much more impressive than jumping over an agility jump even though it's pretty much the same thing. lol I don't get people sometimes.


Haha. Yeah, I can never predict what people will love.

Lots of people, including other dog owners, love the trick where Watson will put his paw on my foot if I hold it out (he can do either foot, or both). Honestly, I trained that in 5min when he was 12 weeks old. I held my foot out, he put his paw on it, and I thought "cute! I'll reward that". It's the fastest trick he's ever learned, because it's his natural reaction to put his paw on things (compared to other tricks which took over a month to train). But people always think it's super impressive. Then I'll show them something I've worked on for a while that I think is impressive, and they want to see the foot touch again. lol I think cuteness of the trick is a big factor.


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## dagwall

So I've got my official NACSW score card in the mail now and it has a page for a photo of your dog. While I have thousands of digital pictures of Jubel I really don't have many if any hard copy photos of him. So I'll have to use a service at CVS/Walmart etc where you can upload digital photos and get prints. I've narrowed it down to a few options now, opinions on which I should use.



















hmm... I think the other picture I was thinking about is only on my computer at home will edit to add tonight if I remember.


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## elrohwen

Definitely the first pic. In the second, I think the background is too busy and he gets lost a bit.

What is the score card? I haven't heard of that before.


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## dagwall

With a recent rule change they aren't actually required anymore as I was just informed by one of the members of the yahoo group for my travel classes. But they are still used and sent out when you register with NACSW. The score books have all your information in them, names, ID numbers, and general information in the front and score card pages in the back. At ORTs and trials there are scribes who fill in your times and final scores in your score book.

Asking in the yahoo group if I needed to get a picture in the book before my ORT on the 11th most responded they didn't have a picture in their books. One did say that a scribe had mentioned they like it when there is a picture as it's easier to match score book with dog then. I'm just using it as an excuse to finally get some hard copy photos of Jubel haha.


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## elrohwen

That's kind of cool! I didn't realize they had a score book like that. It would definitely be a nice memento and make it easy to keep track of things.


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## elrohwen

We're officially started on odor now that I got my own scent kit. Whee! We've had two classes with odor so far, but they were two weeks apart (one was cancelled, and I was on vacation for the other) so Watson was sort of starting all over in the second class. We're still pairing odor with food, and working to keep them on the odor until we give the cue to move on.

Last night I got my odor kit in the mail, so I decided to experiment and see if he would find odor alone, and he did. I figured he was excited about it since his eyes went wide and he was jumping all over me when I opened the package. lol His only problem was that I only did one hide, and he's used to more, so it was much harder to call him off of the search. He just looked at me like "Mom, there have to be more down here! Let me look!" and kept running around the basement for a minute. 

Our instructor mentioned that she doesn't have a firm timeline for when she stops pairing food with odor, and if the dogs seem like they're doing well she will remove the food earlier. I'm going to keep practicing at home with just the odor and build up his alert.


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## sassafras

I have signed Squash McNosypants up for a nosework class. It starts the first week of September, so not for a little while, but I am excited to see how he does.


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## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> I have signed Squash McNosypants up for a nosework class. It starts the first week of September, so not for a little while, but I am excited to see how he does.


Exciting! Let us know how it goes.


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## lil_fuzzy

I guess I'm joining you all in here. I signed up for Denise Fenzi's online Intro to Nosework class the other day, and received my nosework kit today. Haven't started yet, but will do the first session tomorrow 

Obi already knows some scent detection though, I had to do a class on it to finish my dog trainer course, so I taught him to find chamomile. I didn't really know what I was doing though, so it will be interesting to do it properly and using proper scents  And also I haven't done any scent detection with Obi since I passed that assignment, which was 18 months ago.


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## sassafras

elrohwen said:


> Exciting! Let us know how it goes.


A local SAR handler is co-running the class so it should be good. Our Rally trainer, who has seen him get distracted by wanting to investigate MANY a shiny or smelly thing in the middle of a course, wrote back "How happy he will be to be able to use his nose to find something!" after we registered, lol. 

Seriously, I am interested to see how he does. He gets distracted visually, but there have also been times during a rally course or while we are mushing where he just stops everything he is doing and air scents very intently for a minute or so. I'm hoping that it will be fun for him to learn to channel that.


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## elrohwen

I think it's interesting how visual many dogs are at the beginning of nosework. Watson is definitely a sniffer, but sometimes he misses hides when he can't see them, or when their location doesn't mesh with the picture he has in his head of where they should be. This week the scent was in a pipe that came straight out of the wall. He kept searching on a table nearby, because he knows scent can be on horizontal surfaces, but he just didn't understand that it could be on a vertical surface like a wall. Funny how they get stuck on things like that. The further we have gone, the more he relies on his nose rather than visual cues, but I can tell that sometimes he just sees the food or the odor container or whatever once he gets in the vicinity with his nose.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> I think it's interesting how visual many dogs are at the beginning of nosework. Watson is definitely a sniffer, but sometimes he misses hides when he can't see them, or when their location does mesh with the picture he has in his head of where they should be. This week the scent was in a pipe that came straight out of the wall. He kept searching on a table nearby, because he knows scent can be on horizontal surfaces, but he just didn't understand that it could be on a vertical surface like a wall. Funny how they get stuck on things like that. The further we have gone, the more he relies on his nose rather than visual cues, but I can tell that sometimes he just sees the food or the odor container or whatever once he gets in the vicinity with his nose.


Yep, that's a big part of practicing in many different locations and with lots of different types of hides. We even practice our vehicle searches with decoys frequently. A lot of the vehicle hides are in metal tins with a magnet or puddy holding them to the vehicle, the instructor will put a few empty tins on the vehicle to make sure they aren't just reacting to seeing the tin when it's visible. 

The more novel hides you do the better your dog will be. I think it's fun to come up with new ideas for hides and our travel classes will continue to get harder and harder as we progress. Talking to some of the others in the travel class group they told me about some of the advanced class hides they've done. The hardest was hanging from a thread from a tree brand, the hide was about 6' above the ground. The dog is expected to stop under the source and look up.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> The hardest was hanging from a thread from a tree brand, the hide was about 6' above the ground. The dog is expected to stop under the source and look up.


That's pretty cool!

We're starting to run out of places at our regular facility, so we're going to make a field trip to a school or other location in the next few weeks. Indoor Watson is very solid indoors generally, except for the hides on vertical surfaces. Now that I have my own tin with a magnet, I can work on those myself. I have a few acres, so I should really start doing outdoor hides too. It's just tricky if I'm out by myself with no one to hold the dog so he doesn't cheat - I'll have to tie him to a tree or something. And we've only done one vehicle, so definitely need to try that again. He didn't get the point that the vehicle was the object to be searched, and kept trying to run off in all directions and search the rest of the area.


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## DJEtzel

elrohwen said:


> I think it's interesting how visual many dogs are at the beginning of nosework. Watson is definitely a sniffer, but sometimes he misses hides when he can't see them, or when their location doesn't mesh with the picture he has in his head of where they should be. This week the scent was in a pipe that came straight out of the wall. He kept searching on a table nearby, because he knows scent can be on horizontal surfaces, but he just didn't understand that it could be on a vertical surface like a wall. Funny how they get stuck on things like that. The further we have gone, the more he relies on his nose rather than visual cues, but I can tell that sometimes he just sees the food or the odor container or whatever once he gets in the vicinity with his nose.


I think it's funny that you mentioned this, and Dagwall also mentioned visual cues, because that hasn't been my experience at all so far! I've taken about 5 nosework classes and taught two seminars, and the majority of dogs with an issue at all have the "issue" of it being in plain sight and not finding it because of wind, etc. 

One that I specifically remember was with Recon, and the hide was sitting right on the edge of a grooming tub at the park where I work and we frequently train. He had kept jumping into the tubs to sniff around, so my co-worker and instructor placed an "easy" one "for fun" right in plain sight on the tub edge, and Recon was in that tub sniffing all around the hide for probably 30-40 seconds. Literally within a foot of it, in plain sight, but he was too busy using his nose to navigate, which IS good, but kind of hilarious that he didn't use the visual cue at all, in a well lit room.  I notice this with a lot of dogs though and I've never seen a dog cue in on the visual to find hides. I wonder if a different form of teaching it initially could cause this?


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## dagwall

DJEtzel said:


> I think it's funny that you mentioned this, and Dagwall also mentioned visual cues, because that hasn't been my experience at all so far! I've taken about 5 nosework classes and taught two seminars, and the majority of dogs with an issue at all have the "issue" of it being in plain sight and not finding it because of wind, etc.
> 
> One that I specifically remember was with Recon, and the hide was sitting right on the edge of a grooming tub at the park where I work and we frequently train. He had kept jumping into the tubs to sniff around, so my co-worker and instructor placed an "easy" one "for fun" right in plain sight on the tub edge, and Recon was in that tub sniffing all around the hide for probably 30-40 seconds. Literally within a foot of it, in plain sight, but he was too busy using his nose to navigate, which IS good, but kind of hilarious that he didn't use the visual cue at all, in a well lit room.  I notice this with a lot of dogs though and I've never seen a dog cue in on the visual to find hides. I wonder if a different form of teaching it initially could cause this?


Outdoors with wind as a factor everything can change for sure. Our last normal class Jubel had a hell of a time getting a hide in a wheel well due to the wind pattern. He was all over the area, bouncing between the two cars, back and forth. We left that hide to circle the vehicle and look for others before coming back and he still kept missing the hide but knowing SOMETHING was in that area for quite a while. A hide on the edge of the tub as you describe could be doing some crazy things with the possible wind patterns so I could see it being an accidentally hard hide.

All the dogs in my class would acknowledge the decoy hide, they would see it, sniff it, and walk on. I think I only noticed one dog stop and try and alert at a decoy once. So yeah, they do notice the metal tins but for the most part they also know they are looking for odor so they walk on by after a sniff. 

That is a fun part about our travel classes, all the different environments and the different instructors. On Sunday we were in an open park on a slightly windy day. The first time I've really had to be conscious of the direction of the wind and try and position Jubel to catch the currents to find the hide. Great for practices when I know where the hide is, something to really think about when we are both blind to the hides and trying to cover the whole search area.


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## DJEtzel

dagwall said:


> That is a fun part about our travel classes, all the different environments and the different instructors. On Sunday we were in an open park on a slightly windy day. The first time I've really had to be conscious of the direction of the wind and try and position Jubel to catch the currents to find the hide. Great for practices when I know where the hide is, something to really think about when we are both blind to the hides and trying to cover the whole search area.


We have a "field trip" class like this that's very fun. I haven't been able to go in a while because I've been working tuesday nights, but they recently went to a school library and did numerous searches in this huge strange place. I was very jealous. lol. Our students also performed during a huge "dog walk" event and found hides in hay bales, amongst thousands of other dogs, vendors, food and other demos going on. It was pretty awesome. I think the longest search in a 15x20 area full of hay was about a minute! :O


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## elrohwen

I don't know if it's related to training method at all in my case, since Watson is very green and has only worked with odor twice in class. His only "training" was to put food in different places and let him at it. So I would say he almost hasn't had any training, because the act of finding food was a natural behavior for him.

I have seen him cue into a visual a couple times, once he is already close with his nose. Mostly it's more that he looks at the overall picture and thinks about where he is likely to find the hide, rather than entirely using his nose. Certain places are obvious to him, and others, like on a vertical surface, just aren't. It could be that the scent travels differently from a vertical surface,but the fact that he went back to the table again and again makes me think he was looking there because it *looked* like a place that would likely have a hide, even if the scent wasn't coming from there. It's more that then visually cueing into the metal scent container really.

It's not like he's usuing primarily visual cues or anything, and he won't alert to something that looks like a hide but isn't. But he definitely uses visual cues to some extent and I can tell it's decreased as he gets more practice.

Outdoors, hunting birds and small furry things, he's almost entirely scent based. Unless a squirrel runs right under his nose, he misses all sorts of wildlife that I see. On some occasions, he has completely missed the visual (the deer ran off before he looked that direction) but he scented them a few seconds later. It's really interesting to watch him sometimes.


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## dagwall

Just got back from our ORT. Jubel passed, he found and I alerted in 3.91 seconds. You have 3 minutes. He was all excited to finally be doing something after all the time waiting in the car before hand. He charged across the threshold, ran down the line of boxes on the right side, halfway to the fourth box he flew back around to the third box and focused on it. I call alert and we pass. Once he got his treats he had to go check all the rest of the boxes just to be safe, the judges were amused.

So it was a good day, the other two dogs from my class group there passed as well. Now we wait until November for the first NW1 trial in the area.


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## elrohwen

Yay! That's awesome! Congrats to you and Jubel.


Now that I have created a nosework monster, I am working to put the activity more on stimulus control. In training classes he has a harder time focusing because he wants to search, and at home it's nearly impossible to train him in the basement because that's where we do searches. So that's ongoing. He is the worst in training class once he has smelled food that someone has randomly dropped, and then he goes into hunting mode. I hope this will get better as we move onto odor only and food becomes a distraction to train around, rather than something to search for. In the basement I worked a lot on offered attention and just sat around until he focused back on me, and then jackpotted. By the end of our session he was able to do some heeling work, but he'd still get distracted and go off on a search every once in a while. 

This week at class we're taking a field trip to a local school, so that will be fun! I hope we do more vehicle searches too. We did them last week and he was terrible. He will find the first hide, and then is off in every other direction sniffing. He just doesn't get that cars are a thing to be searched yet, but I think with a few more practice sessions he will figure it out.


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## sassafras

I found out today that they are switching instructors of the class we signed up for from some people who do SAR to a guy who is... oh, a certified instructor or whatever they call it (I don't know enough!!) through NACSW. Started out as a scheduling conflict but then my club decided it would be a good move to start people out with methods more in line with what they would need if they ever decided to compete. SO EXCITED SEPTEMBER HURRY UP.


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## dagwall

I don't think you have to deal with food distractions at trials until NW3 if I remember correctly. That will be a huge challenge for Jubel I'm sure. Of course it's never too early to work on focus around food.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I don't think you have to deal with food distractions at trials until NW3 if I remember correctly. That will be a huge challenge for Jubel I'm sure. Of course it's never too early to work on focus around food.


Yeah, I'd still like to work on it as a life skill thing. He can't focus now in training class if he smells food anywhere other than on me. He just assumes it's time to search and that's all he wants to do.


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## juliemule

http://vsrda.org/how-scent-and-airflow-works

This may be helpful, not sure how much yall work outside, but there is airflow indoors as well. This is just a basic description of scent and airflow


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## elrohwen

Very cool article. 

Two of the four "elements" in nosework are vehicles and exterior searches, so there is a good amount of work outdoors.


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## elrohwen

Last night was our first field trip class. We went to a local school and did some searches by the bus depot area (basically a fence line, building with bays for trucks, and an old bus seat bench thingy). Watson did such a good job. We were prepared for the dogs to be a bit distracted (especially since he is all over the place with vehicle searches), but he immediately got the idea and was very fast. We're doing just odor now too, which is awesome. I'm very proud of him! I think the instructor was even impressed, since he seems all over the place before a search, but he is really very focused when he's working. She took some video too so we could play back and watch exactly what he was doing and when he was picking up the scent. Hopefully she figures out how to email it to us, and then I'll post it. 

I just need to work more with getting him to stay on the scent. He sort of has the idea and will touch it with his nose or paw a couple times, but he wants to get up and move on much too quickly. When he knows food is hidden somewhere and I'm not helping him get it (like under the couch) he will sit there forever and look at me like "Come on stupid lady, I know there is food under there. Get it for me!" I need to get that same motivation on odor. I think it will just take some more repetition. I'm also going to try hiding the odor where he can't reach it, and see if maybe he gets more persistent when he knows it is under something but he needs me to get it out. 

My husband and I agreed that Watson's ideal "job" in life would be one of those detection dogs in the airport who they pick to be cute and non-threatening. 

I'm also trying to get my friends to sign up for the intro nosework class. They just got a basset from a hunting kennel (she didn't make the cut as a hunter) and I think she'd love it.


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## Laurelin

We have one more nosework class then we're done. Kind of sad but hopefully we can still do field trips sometimes.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> We have one more nosework class then we're done. Kind of sad but hopefully we can still do field trips sometimes.


Just because there are no classes offered at the level you are working? Or because they're not offering it anymore?


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## elrohwen

Ok, our trainer sent our video. It's not on YouTube, so hopefully this works:
http://www.coachseye.com/BGQ1

This was our second search of the evening, and the first in this section (the previous one was along a chain link fence).

On the first he clearly wanted to move right along, so I had to work to get him to stay there.

I didn't even realize where the second one was, other than somewhere on the bench. Funny how he got so close right away, but then backed off and searched under it from a few different angles. 

Then he zeroed in on the third pretty easily.


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## Laurelin

I've done all the classes they offer with both my dogs.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I've done all the classes they offer with both my dogs.


I guess there's no value in repeating? 

I'm not sure how other places do it, but my classes have just been one group of students who started at intro and kept up with it, so we advance at the rate of the class. There might be a point where going to classes is no longer useful, and we just need to do searches on our own, but I like that there isn't a set curriculum and we can just keep advancing. Not sure how that will work if they get a second set of students through the intro class this fall.


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## elrohwen

Did a practice ORT yesterday. Watson was exhausted from the previous day's activities, so I think his brain was a little unfocused. The first time through he didn't even pause at a single box. On the second run through, he paused at one and I called it, because I wasn't sure if he was going to give me anymore than that, but it was actually the next box and he was about to figure it out. The second run through, it was the last box he checked and I was getting worried that he was going to blow through them all again, but he stopped and clearly alerted to it, so yay! I think next spring we will be ready to trial. Hopefully they will hold a trial in my town again (only a mile from my house) that we can enter.


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## Laurelin

Summer passed her mock ORT AND her mock nosework trial that was not paired! Woohoo! She is a little hard to read in nosework and cracks me up the way she works. It involves a lot of flailing about and running as fast as she can in circles. It is funny, I always think she is not working at first but sure enough after enough loops around the search area at warp speed, looking totally distracted she pinpoints it and zeros right in. She definitely has her own style. My biggest challenge is not to get dizzy while working her because she's spinning so fast around me.

So we're done but my trainer is going to try to hold some sniff and goes starting in about 2 weeks. I hope that works out! I like going and doing that with a group.

There is no ORT around here sadly. The lady (Mia's trainer) that was really pioneering nosework in the area has cancer so has understandably been busy. Summer's trainer is just now finishing up her NASCW stuff so she can be affiliated. So probably no real trials for us for a while at least. I hope we can eventually! I still plan on practicing 1-2 times a week.


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## dagwall

Way to go Summer! I've certainly heard of dogs who search with a similar method as Summer, maybe not at warp speed but the same idea in general. Essential the dogs like to check out the whole area before committing to any hiding spot. They notice the odor but keep looking to see what else is out there and if there is a 'better' source. Then usually make a bee line for the hide.

Jubel does a bit of a variation on that sometimes when doing container searches. He'll run around the whole area and with multiple hides he'll stop at the easy ones to get to and go by the ones buried under other boxes. Once he has all the easy ones he goes straight back to the buried hides and digs in after them. So it really seems that he noticed them just wanted to "pick the low hanging fruit first" as my trainer likes to say.


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## Laurelin

Pretty much all of Summer's movements are at warp speed. She doesn't really survey the whole area per say, she'll rush in as fast as possible then start looping around ME. My trainer said I should slowly walk and she keeps circling me. It looks like an overly hyper dog who is running around on the end of her leash because she's excited. Every now and then she clears her nose so I know she is searching but it doesn't look like it. She goes from wild maneuvering and circling to suddenly sticking to the trail and making a beeline to the hide. It's very odd.... and I'm not joking that I almost get dizzy trying to keep up with her. She's so short and circling so fast on her leash that I have to spin to keep up with her. Or else we both end up with the leash twisted every which way. We have to figure that out- I am thinking a harness. She is always tangling herself up.

Mia is so methodical that the difference is kind of amusing. Mia moves fast but does none of the circling.


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## trainingjunkie

Any of you ever watch "Foundation to Nosework" with Andrew Ramsey?

I just watched it and am wondering if this is what classes are teaching.


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## Laurelin

I have heard of it but never watched it. It sounds similar although I am not sure what 'scent cones' are. I do know someone that has done some work with Andrew and her dogs (on another board). I went back and looked up her posts and said she likes his methods better than the 'official NACSW' way so there must be some differences. Apparently his is based on actual detection dog work. I'd be interested to see how the methods differed.


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## trainingjunkie

I just watched it. It needed an editor to take out at least half of the footage, but it was really thorough and interesting. 

I certified and handled two drug dogs, so his method was very familiar to me. Liked it. Liked him. I think the DVD was about 3 hours long. After watching it, I am 100% certain that I could get all 3 of mine working without too much trouble. I am totally intrigued. 

I hadn't ever really paid any attention to Nosework as I am totally obsessed with agility with a minor in obedience, but with winter coming on, this looks like a blast. Virtually nothing wipes a dog out faster than a bunch of scent work. Very cool.

I am so glad I tuned into this thread. I have been missing a very wonderful opportunity.


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## Laurelin

I'd watch it but the only places I see to buy it are $45-60! I think that's a bit much for now for a curiosity. 

I've talked to Julie about it a lot and it does sound very similar to what her detection dogs do. I think nosework is obviously a lot lighter as in you're not going to have day long cadaver hunts in harsh terrain. It is meant to simulate drug dog searches (hence the 4 search types- vehicle, indoor, outdoor, container). 

My two love it. For me it's not as fun as agility by a long shot but it's interesting to watch the dogs work and the kick my dogs get out of it is well worth it. Plus good people involved around here.

Having watched a few dogs put through nosework I think it's something almost any dog can learn (some are more inclined than others).


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## juliemule

Scent cones are how the dog finds source. 

On a flat surface, with no influence of weather or airflow, the scent of, let's say a body, would be in a perfect circle around the source. Depending on time at location determines how large that circle (cone) is.

Now picture that source in the real world. Let's say a ditch. It's 80 degrees, sunny, high humidity, wind at 5 mph. There is an open field, then wooded area. 
Sun makes the scent rise, along with heat. The ditch holds scent, and humidity helps it pool. The field may lack scent totally, since it rises, but will likely catch on the trees, going over or under, and pooling at the trunks. So the cone goes up, catches wind, and settles. The dog will show change in behavior at the trees, and work the cone to source. If there is a void (field) that's where the handler needs to become involved, and get the dog closer to source.

If the body was in the field, in shade, the cone would be shaped as named, and the dog will work in and out, narrowing down to source. If it had been there a short period (as in nosework items) likely the dog hits odor and goes straight to source. The longer it sits, the larger the cone becomes, and typically the dog works side to side, leaves the cone, turns back in, leaves the opposite side, back in, until it works to the strongest odor, usually at source. 

Fringe alerts are when the dog hits odor and alerts without working to source. This is why its so important to only reward AT source for primary reward, secondary can come anywhere.

Cones are important to understand, especially when having to pinpoint, for small items like a tooth, bullet with blood, etc. I'm not sure how close the dog needs to be in nosework to call a find, but vehicles can be tricky. Heat and airflow greatly affects where the alert is on vehicles.

Also indoors, if source is in a ceiling tile, vent, window frame, or anywhere that airflow will pull the scent, items are easily missed unless you account how the cone works in those situations.


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## KBLover

So, how would I start Wally on this?

Seems like it would be the added challenge to the "Find it" games I've been seeking for some time now.

I've watched some of the videos and is it just as simple as using something he wants to find and hiding it in several boxes and stuff? 

Anyway, looking for some tips/ideas on how to get started on this. The closest I've come to any "real" searching was when I took a garden glove, balled up some ham and then hid it under leaves (in areas where there's other leaves to try to stop that "I see the spot" shortcut).

One thing I was that caught my attention was how Summer would run around and then start searching. Wally does something similar, except he'll got to spots where he remembers something was there before and then finally actually start searching. Same idea?

If I tell him "find it" when it could be anywhere on the first floor of the house, he's doing the same thing - going to spots where he's found things before and he'll either look at me (because I ain't putting it in the same spots all the time) or start actually using his damn nose LOL. (When he looks at me, I just tell him "find it" again). 

Someone must have told him he's a sight hound because he's trying to see it before sniff it out. Is that typical, just the way he happens to search (even though he's not a sight hound), or is he just trying to cut corners (this is what I'm thinking)?


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## elrohwen

We started by just hiding food in boxes, and then hiding without boxes, to get the dogs searching. Once they had the drive to do that, we added the birch scent, paired with food on top, and rewarded with more treats right on the source of the odor. After a couple weeks of that, we moved to scent alone with rewarding at the source of odor, and occasionally pairing with food again if the search was harder and dogs were struggling (like searches in a new distracting area)

Searching where previous hides were is extremely common and doesn't have anything to do with being a sight hound or being more visual than other dogs. Pretty much every dog in my classes does it. Watson can remember many places I have hidden things in the basement, even if I have only used the spot once, and he will check those first. I think they may do less of this as they gain experience. There is also the issue that residual odor may be lurking at that spot, so they check it out to see if it's actually a hide or not.


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## MafiaPrincess

I haven't been to dogforums.com in a while.. So I only read this whole thread now. 

It's interesting to see how everyone trains differently. Though nosework for the sport dog crowd is still in a more or less pioneer stage where people are trying different methods and there isn't a so called best yet really.

Smudge and I took three seminars, there were no classes even not so locally, and have worked at home. We've gone from no nosework experience to being SDDA started level trial ready in 4 months. But we never ever paired food with scent. We searched for scent from the first hides the first seminar. It is becoming the more popular method, and whomever posted they were doing a Fenzi class, that's how they are teaching it too. Having never needed to wean off food we seem to have made progress faster. That said, it took a little longer for Smudge to figure out what the game was we were playing, but very much understood it during our first workshop/seminar.

Laurelin, you asked some pages ago why trainers don't train alerts earlier. I have been told by more than one nosework trainer that it can lead to false alerts. Many dogs go through a phase of false alerting to see if it pays. Teaching an alert too early can either cause that to keep going possibly. At least in the SDDA the started level doesn't require a formal alert, you just need to be able to read your dog. Smudge when ready started to create his own alert, but I found soon after he was also suddenly false alerting more. We've worked through it.. but it was a pita as he had been reliable previously and it seemed to come out of nowhere.


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## elrohwen

I've been reading some articles about the issue of false alerting. The dog learns that alerting pays off, so they start throwing them out all the time. I never really thought of it like that, but I can see how it would be a real problem, especially with dogs of certain personalities (the more handler oriented ones especially). 

We don't train alerts in my classes, but we are training the dogs to remain on odor until we tell them to move on, which I think is a nice compromise. They should stay on the odor long enough for you to definitely call it, but hopefully won't start offering it as a separate behavior.


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## MafiaPrincess

I was told the next time I seminared we would start working towards a formal alert for dogs who had a good sense of their job on all 4 types of searches. At the last one Smudge had already been offering a paw touch on hides, but I was told it would need tweaking to get it to where I'd likely be happy with it. 

So we practice on the hide types, he uses his paw, but I haven't ever trained that portion, it's developed. Other than his brief manic period of telling me there were hides in all the boxes so please pay out already which was 2+ months into training he's been consistent (and got over the false alerts all over as they did not pay) and I don't want to do any work honing an alert without help. 

We've worked towards staying at odour since the beginning as it was never paired with food, and Smudge stays on it, but gets insistent with his paw now as well. I'm twiddling my thumbs waiting for another seminar as I think it's to the point that his insistence could disturb a hide, but I don't want to hinder his enthusiasm so I'm afraid to try to change it on my own. :/ 

The first 3 Ontario SDDA trials have now happened and been so full there were waitlists immediately. I'd like to enter to see how we do.. but I hope if we wait it won't be quite as hard to get into future trials as most people who got their started title aren't ready for advanced yet.


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## Laurelin

I was all excited showing my trainer Mia's alert but she wasn't really happy about it, which I thought was interesting. 

She said there is an issue of the dog pawing at things they see visually instead of where the odor is. also, that a large dog pawing as an alert could get you DQ'd if the dog damages something in the trial. Not a concern though for Mia. Personally, I think I am going to continue the way we have it going for Mia. She has never false alerted and I find her so easy to read. She readily alerts on non-visible hides as well.


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## dagwall

I don't know how SDDA works but with NACSW trials they have a set day and time they open for entries and then randomly pick those who make it in for that trial and wait list the rest. Those who have already titled at that level but aren't ready to advance to the next level only get into the trial if everyone without a title at the level is already in.


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## elrohwen

I have noticed that Watson will do a nose touch alert if he can see the container (nose touch, look at me, nose touch, look at me, etc). but if it's hidden under a chair or something, where he can't really see it (but should easily be able to find the source with his nose) that he doesn't do it. He just keeps sniffing around, close to the source, for a little while, but then will move on to the next hide without trying to indicate anything. So I can see how that could be true of the paw too. 

In your case with Mia, it sounds like a great solution. I can see why some dogs might false alert, or others might damage things, but it sounds like she understands the game so well that it's not an issue with her. Personally I'd love to have a clear alert like that. We did a mock-ORT and only one dog sat down and looked at his owner with a clear alert, and we were all a bit jealous.


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## MafiaPrincess

Smudge is very much pawing at odour rather than something he sees, as in a container search he paws on the box. But you are correct, you DQ or lose points if he messes up the hide. He could also scratch a vehicle, as he has tried to use his paw to alert there now too. I'm just unsure how to harness that as no one else at the last seminar was ready to work on alerts yet, and most people's dogs were not starting to give one on their own. 

First come first serve... SDDA members (as in humans who have chosen membership as it is not required to register your dog) get some days to a week with the premium and then the general public can view it on their site. No lottery system. And so far if it is a trainer offering the trial.. they've given their students advanced pre-warning so they know the premium is coming.. though that is skeazy.. 

So far only the lowest level has been offered.. apparently trials will be offering multiple levels in future as there are titled dogs now.. so it'll be the same number of spots total, but with the possibility of those spots being made up of different levels of those competing.


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## Laurelin

With Summer we are just now getting to where she's sticking to the odor well. I'm just going by reading her and it's definitely a bit more difficult compared to Mia, who paws at it then stares at me. 

Something verrry interesting was that Sunday Summer and I did some non-paired hides this weekend and she actually offered a touch with the paw on her own on the last rounds. It is not something I asked for but she is starting to do it.

Summer is finally to the point that she does not need food paired. It has taken quite a lot longer to transfer her onto straight odor than it was for Mia. Mia transferred from food to odor in one session.

I need to do more sessions more often. I swear that NOTHING in the world makes Mia happier than nosework. I hadn't worked her in a few weeks and she was so excited to work this weekend.


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## Laurelin

Oh and funny story with Mia this weekend.... I had placed a hide on the couch and she was working the couch. She had already found 3 hides and I had shoved them into my pocket. She started air scenting on the back of the couch then turned in to me and stuck her paw out and alerted on my pocket! What a girl!

She is very gentle about her alert- it is more of just sticking her paw out and looking at me vs frantic digging at something. How do they tell if your dog has disturbed a hide? Mia does paw on vehicle searches as well but she's so tiny that I seriously doubt she'd ever scratch a car by pawing at it.


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## MafiaPrincess

As far as I can tell it's judge's discretion.. For the most part Smudge isn't frantically digging, it's gentler than that, but our seminar trainer warned us that it could lead to NQs/ points lost, etc.

So the judge could decide I think that they feel you disturbed the hide, or were too rough with it..

Scent work has more of the subjectivity of rally when it comes to deductions than the objectivity of agility. But we haven't competed yet.. so while we have done fun matches with score sheets, we don't 100% know how the real thing will be for scoring.


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## Laurelin

Yes, so far we have only done mock ORT and NW1 trials. There's no options to really trial around here yet. 

Do they prefer an alert that is like a sit at the source? It is too late (imo) to retrain Mia's alert and I really don't care if we title that much to do so.


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## MafiaPrincess

If it's a clear alert I wouldn't retrain it either honestly. I'm not sure what the perfect alert is, as a sit beside a container for a container search is fine, but in a room you'd need a sit, but your dog to be glued to the source to figure out where the scent is. As a straw is small and could be near anywhere.. So it's 2 phase... An alert you can recognize.. but being so attached to the source until called off that you know exactly where it is rather than kind of where.. 

Although in the SDDA they can hide things in a room search 3ft up.. So a sit for an alert and being at source don't mix. I'd hope the dog would go for source rather than the alert.. but then again it would be something to train through too.


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## Laurelin

I believe NACSW is up to 4' for a hide? I am not sure. That will be an interesting bridge to cross for us lol.


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## Laurelin

Missed your post somehow! 



KBLover said:


> So, how would I start Wally on this?


We start very similarly to elrohwen. boxes with food then food hidden in a room (in boxes sometimes and sometimes out on things). Like any trianing, you start small and obvious. Boxes tend to illicit curiosity so most dogs would go approach them. Then they would discover the food. wE also use them as a crutch later on if the dog is having trouble. Say there is a hide on a wall but the dog is not following the odor up, we might move a box nearby so the dog checks out the box and subsequently finds the odor.

Since you've done so much shaping with Wally do not be surprised if he goes at it initially like a shaping exercise and wants to leap on/over/in the objects or touch them all or something. It took Summer a while to realize that I was not asking for tricks with the objects.

Mia picked up that the object was to sniff out the food in one round. Summer didn't pick up that idea for probably well over 4 sessions. She wanted to look in everything or do tricks. Just depends on the dog. They are both loving the game and pretty reliable now.

Then eventually we paired the food with odor and then transferred to just odor. Mafia is right though, nosework is in baby stages and not entirely figured out as a SPORT yet. I've been doing it since last november (wow!) and my trainer has changed her stance on some things based on seminars she's gone to. There is no perfect way, everyone does it a bit differently. Esp food vs no food or how long to pair.



> One thing I was that caught my attention was how Summer would run around and then start searching. Wally does something similar, except he'll got to spots where he remembers something was there before and then finally actually start searching. Same idea?


Most dogs remember where the last hide was and they will often, especially at first, look there first. Mia still knows I put things in shoes a lot so she always has to check shoes... just in case. 

Summer's round and round is different... it literally looks aimless but we have realized she is canvassing (sp?) the area really quickly looking to find an easy hide. Summer checks out the entire area and then pretty much immediately hones in on the odor after doing so. That's another thing to realize, esp if you go from food to odor or pair some hides and not all- the dog will often go for the easiest reward and will at first search for the easiest payout.



> Is that typical, just the way he happens to search (even though he's not a sight hound), or is he just trying to cut corners (this is what I'm thinking)?


Typical. Summer spent her first 4 weeks running up to boxes and either jumping in and looking for treats or just looking in every box she came across. Eventually when you change things up enough they start realizing the idea is to search with their nose. Summer goes in straight with her nose now, but still often is extra thorough searching at a spot we've previously had a hide. 

Some of that could also be residual odor. If the dog still smells the odor at that spot, they may work it longer even if the source has moved. That's why q-tips shouldn't go into pockets without being contained or else I read stories of dogs hitting on that piece of clothing forever, even when not searching. Also, if using the food and boxes method, we keep 1-2 boxes 'hot' and the rest never have food/odor in them.


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## MafiaPrincess

Laurelin said:


> Some of that could also be residual odor. If the dog still smells the odor at that spot, they may work it longer even if the source has moved. That's why q-tips shouldn't go into pockets without being contained or else I read stories of dogs hitting on that piece of clothing forever, even when not searching. Also, if using the food and boxes method, we keep 1-2 boxes 'hot' and the rest never have food/odor in them.


I agree. Anything that touched the scent you are working needs to be in your scent box, or trashed really. Our trainer has some varying articles of clothing that live in her scent box that she occasionally puts hides in, often to see what a dog thinks of a non box hide. They never had wintergreen on them.. but even with a human nose they smell strong.. My boxes are small rubbermaids. One says SCENT BOX on it so there is never an oops where I contaminate another box. 

Smudge rechecks all the places I've put hides during a session. I am pretty sure they have residual odour even when I move my container. My trainer has a house full of dogs that do varying levels of nose work.. she's found if she plays with one, puts it all away and pulls out another to do something different with, they will often target her hide locaions that session seeing if it'll pay.


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## KBLover

Wow, thanks for the detailed post, Laurelin!



Laurelin said:


> We start very similarly to elrohwen. boxes with food then food hidden in a room (in boxes sometimes and sometimes out on things). Like any trianing, you start small and obvious. Boxes tend to illicit curiosity so most dogs would go approach them. Then they would discover the food. wE also use them as a crutch later on if the dog is having trouble. Say there is a hide on a wall but the dog is not following the odor up, we might move a box nearby so the dog checks out the box and subsequently finds the odor.


Is there any particular sort of boxes I should look for? Any particular size or material (wood? plastic? cardboard? mesh?) I take it I should put the box over the food item so he has to move the box or somehow look at me to say "it's in here"? Or do I have it so there's one way he could go in the box and grab the food (also a method of +R almost self-rewarding the effort he just made).

What is it about boxes? One of the few things Wally would go up to "back in the day" was boxes! Go figure!



Laurelin said:


> Since you've done so much shaping with Wally do not be surprised if he goes at it initially like a shaping exercise and wants to leap on/over/in the objects or touch them all or something. It took Summer a while to realize that I was not asking for tricks with the objects.
> 
> Mia picked up that the object was to sniff out the food in one round. Summer didn't pick up that idea for probably well over 4 sessions. She wanted to look in everything or do tricks. Just depends on the dog. They are both loving the game and pretty reliable now.
> 
> Then eventually we paired the food with odor and then transferred to just odor. Mafia is right though, nosework is in baby stages and not entirely figured out as a SPORT yet. I've been doing it since last november (wow!) and my trainer has changed her stance on some things based on seminars she's gone to. There is no perfect way, everyone does it a bit differently. Esp food vs no food or how long to pair.


LOL yeah, I pretty much expect that. He's probably going to poke and paw all the boxes. Gonna have to rely on the "Find it" cue since that's well-known and puts him in "search mode".

Are there special scent articles or could I use like dirty socks for the odor to find (if/when we ever get to that point - just got my new shipment of 600 treats so perfect timing to start using the food)? If there's scent articles (as in, ones designed for this sort of activity) - should I just look for them online? 



Laurelin said:


> Most dogs remember where the last hide was and they will often, especially at first, look there first. Mia still knows I put things in shoes a lot so she always has to check shoes... just in case.


Hahaha - I've been putting the treats in my shoes lately. It's all fun and games until a stale piece of waffle with old sticky syrup is still in my shoe because I thought he got it all. But that's another thread...




Laurelin said:


> Summer's round and round is different... it literally looks aimless but we have realized she is canvassing (sp?) the area really quickly looking to find an easy hide. Summer checks out the entire area and then pretty much immediately hones in on the odor after doing so. That's another thing to realize, esp if you go from food to odor or pair some hides and not all- the dog will often go for the easiest reward and will at first search for the easiest payout.


Freaking opportunists - always looking for the easiest way to do something!  

But, yeah, I see that even with the "find it" and he keeps looking in the obvious places like it's going to be there the sixth time he checks it (hey, Wally, you know the definition of doing something over and over and expecting different results?)  Nice to know he's just normally insane LOL



Laurelin said:


> Typical. Summer spent her first 4 weeks running up to boxes and either jumping in and looking for treats or just looking in every box she came across. Eventually when you change things up enough they start realizing the idea is to search with their nose. Summer goes in straight with her nose now, but still often is extra thorough searching at a spot we've previously had a hide.
> 
> Some of that could also be residual odor. If the dog still smells the odor at that spot, they may work it longer even if the source has moved. That's why q-tips shouldn't go into pockets without being contained or else I read stories of dogs hitting on that piece of clothing forever, even when not searching. Also, if using the food and boxes method, we keep 1-2 boxes 'hot' and the rest never have food/odor in them.


Good to know he's doing the typical "novice" searching habit.  Could he also be sniffing but not have his nose right up on the floor? Like he moves around with his nose like a centimeter off the ground/floor? Maybe he's trying to pick up some scent hovering low on the ground? *doesn't know the science/dynamics of how scent works* 

That's a great tip with the boxes. I'll have to remember that. If I have to buy some, I'll have to get a certain color to be the "hot" color (maybe red since I can see it and he can't muahahaha *cough* ahem) 

Thanks again for the information. I really think Wally will take to this and give him another good way to give him some mental work.


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## elrohwen

The boxes we use in class are typically smaller shipping boxes that people have collected (so nothing special). At home I use what we have, which often ends up being beer or wine boxes, old Amazon boxes, etc. In the early stages, you want the dog to self-reward when he finds the food, so keep the box upright and open. Then you can start making it harder by folding some of the flaps over, closing a portion of it, or whatever. I don't think we ever did a food-only hide where the dog couldn't feasibly get to the food himself, though sometimes we would move an object out of the way if the dog wasn't figuring out how to do it. Once we went to odor plus food, the hides were still out in the open enough that the dog could self-reward with the food, and then we rewarded with more food as close to the source as possible, either by cupping our hand over the odor while holding food, or dropping the food right on the source. Now that we are doing only odor, the hides are sometimes hidden where the dog can't actually touch it (inside a closed box, for example) but often they are still fairly out in the open so the dog can at least touch them with his nose. The more advanced you get, the more difficult they become.

I will admit that I don't keep one "hot" box and use the ones I have interchangeably. With food, he was easily able to figure out which ones were source vs residual. We moved on to hiding things all over the places, only occasionally using boxes, fairly quickly, so they never got super greasy and disgusting. When we use odor, it's in a container, so it's not directly contaminating the surfaces or boxes I hide it in (though I'm sure there is still residual scent). 

I got my birch scent from http://www.k9nwsource.com/ They sell a beginning kit for $8 which is a pretty good deal. You could use something else, though I would try to get small containers, like the ones in the kit, so your scent isn't directly contaminating the areas you hide it in. I would also use something very specific to start, that is not something Wally smells on a regular basis. 

Most dogs I have seen don't search with their nose to the ground. Watson does this sometimes while tracking people/dogs on our walks, but he will move between air scenting and trailing on the ground. For nosework, his nose is typically a good distance off of the ground and he is air scenting most of the time, since there isn't really a "trail" of scent on the ground. The scent does move all around with air currents, so your dog may catch in an odd place and then whip around to figure out where the source is.


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## Laurelin

KBLover said:


> Is there any particular sort of boxes I should look for? Any particular size or material (wood? plastic? cardboard? mesh?) I take it I should put the box over the food item so he has to move the box or somehow look at me to say "it's in here"? Or do I have it so there's one way he could go in the box and grab the food (also a method of +R almost self-rewarding the effort he just made).


We use 2 sets. One is shipping boxes of various shapes and sizes. We make the 'hot' boxes smaller and initially start pretty stupid easy. maybe 6-10 boxes with the two hot ones out and the top open. The dogs can just look in/jump in and get food. Then we will start stacking boxes/putting the small ones inside the big ones to make it harder. 

We also have one set of about 12-20 (not sure) white carboard boxes that are identical. Only one of those is 'hot' ever and we use it as an ORT (odor recognition test). It is the first part of nosework a dog must pass to trial. NW1 is the first odor: birch. and so forth for the other levels. So those are lined up in rows and the dog must alert to the correct box.

But as Mafia said not everyone trains this way so another way may work for you guys. We are mostly trying to really build the drive to search in the first few weeks. So the pace is slow and we start with something most every dog will want to search out (high value food)



> What is it about boxes? One of the few things Wally would go up to "back in the day" was boxes! Go figure!


No idea, but it's one of my favorite suggestions for getting a dog interested in training! Just go play with a box! 




> LOL yeah, I pretty much expect that. He's probably going to poke and paw all the boxes. Gonna have to rely on the "Find it" cue since that's well-known and puts him in "search mode".


Knowing a search cue is a great start and really what we spend the first weeks on so you'll probably be ahead of the game there! 



> Are there special scent articles or could I use like dirty socks for the odor to find (if/when we ever get to that point - just got my new shipment of 600 treats so perfect timing to start using the food)? If there's scent articles (as in, ones designed for this sort of activity) - should I just look for them online?


I would probably use birch or something even if you were doing this solely for fun. I like that we can just put the odor on the q-tips and stick the q-tips in small things easily. I agree with elrohwen that you want something unique that he is not going to come across a lot. They tend to use essential oil which is really strong at first but ime fades over time. My trainer is using the same q-tips she's been using for 2 years even though we can't smell them anymore. You can make your own kit or buy them online. Mine was $10 from my trainer and I got a jar full of q-tips, an aerated tin can, 2 lipstick tubes, a sample vial and a tin to keep them in. The tin is in my fridge. 

If you make the qtips you're supposed to wear gloves. Actually some people say to wear gloves when handling it at all. I have... gotten lazy there.

Be aware though that a lot of dogs trained on birch will alert on wintergreen too. They smell very much alike.



> Good to know he's doing the typical "novice" searching habit.  Could he also be sniffing but not have his nose right up on the floor? Like he moves around with his nose like a centimeter off the ground/floor? Maybe he's trying to pick up some scent hovering low on the ground? *doesn't know the science/dynamics of how scent works*


There are smoke sticks if you really want to see how scent moves in a room. It's interesting stuff for sure and we do some of that. Watch the dog work, then try to figure out how the scent is moving then see for sure. Scent catches on some weird things and sometimes the dog will pick it up across the room seemingly out of nowhere.

It sounds like he's air scenting which most dogs do. Does he ever clear out his nose? That's one clear sign the dog is searching. You'll hear them huff then clear out the nasal passage.

Mia keeps the nose to the ground more but will also get to high ground and start air scenting. In my living room she will climb up the couch and just stand and sniff in all directions then take off. Yesterday we were searching some vehicles and she climbed up a trailer and started air scenting. Since there's no trail, they can't follow just along the ground. Summer air scents pretty much exclusively. It often looks like she's not searching but she really is. As she progresses it is becoming more obvious and methodical.



> That's a great tip with the boxes. I'll have to remember that. If I have to buy some, I'll have to get a certain color to be the "hot" color (maybe red since I can see it and he can't muahahaha *cough* ahem)
> 
> Thanks again for the information. I really think Wally will take to this and give him another good way to give him some mental work.


We keep everything the same color and uniform as possible. So we mark Hot and Cold on the inside of box for the mock trials. Of course the handlers are going into that blind, which makes it more difficult.

If you can ever get someone else to set your hides (once you get that far) it is really eye opening to do so. Tells you a lot about your dog and communication when you really have to trust your dog to tell you correctly. It is much easier when I know where the hides are!


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## Laurelin

DJEtzel said:


> I think it's funny that you mentioned this, and Dagwall also mentioned visual cues, because that hasn't been my experience at all so far! I've taken about 5 nosework classes and taught two seminars, and the majority of dogs with an issue at all have the "issue" of it being in plain sight and not finding it because of wind, etc.
> 
> One that I specifically remember was with Recon, and the hide was sitting right on the edge of a grooming tub at the park where I work and we frequently train. He had kept jumping into the tubs to sniff around, so my co-worker and instructor placed an "easy" one "for fun" right in plain sight on the tub edge, and Recon was in that tub sniffing all around the hide for probably 30-40 seconds. Literally within a foot of it, in plain sight, but he was too busy using his nose to navigate, which IS good, but kind of hilarious that he didn't use the visual cue at all, in a well lit room.  I notice this with a lot of dogs though and I've never seen a dog cue in on the visual to find hides. I wonder if a different form of teaching it initially could cause this?


I was going back through and found this interesting and saw I'd missed it. I don't think it is training method, I think it is the dog and what they do naturally. Mia just went in nose-first from the get go. 

I do notice some dogs reacting visually at first. Summer just wanted to look for the food at first. Then eventually she realized 'hey I can smell the boxes!' Then 'hey! Food can be on things too, not just in boxes!' Then 'hey, food is sometimes on walls!' And finally 'Food is sometimes on cars!' She really had to progress that way vs Mia who just realized sniffing was what she was supposed to do. Mia is a sniffer in real life and uses her nose to sniff out mice and squirrels. Summer doesn't do that.

Now, let's say I hide the odor tube in a pile of clothes for example.... Mia will dig down and find the tube and alert on the tube vs on the clothes. I may need to fix that somehow because that would definitely be considered disturbing the hide. :/ Hadn't thought of that.


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## elrohwen

About being visual - Watson tends to get visual sometimes when he's frustrated, or sometimes when he thinks he is at source, but is trying to find the container. So he starts searching with his nose, but the visual part does come into play sometimes. Like the time we had a hide on a wall, he knew he was close to source, but visually he was thinking it would likely be on the horizontal surface next to the wall, not on the wall itself, so he went back to the horizontal surface a few times. I think that's a case where he used his nose, but then defaulted to visual cues of where he thought it was likely to be because he was frustrated, instead of following only his nose. Generally he is not a visual dog though - there are so many times that he has completely missed deer in our field because he has his nose to the ground and isn't looking (or is air scenting and not looking), but then he will catch their scent soon after they have disappeared.


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## Laurelin

Yes frustration definitely comes out in several ways. For Summer she starts offering tricks and doing things to try to prompt something from me. Most the time she defaults to 'shame on me' and starts covering her eyes with her paw. That is her default 'I know I'm supposed to do something but I don't know what!' Or she tackles of jumps over some random object. Reiterating the cue 'find it' sometimes helps her get back on focus.

Mia has yet to really get frustrated to the point of not working. She seems to have a long duration, which is funny because in other things like agility she frustrates MUCH easier than Summer. 

dogs are interesting.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Most the time she defaults to 'shame on me' and starts covering her eyes with her paw. That is her default 'I know I'm supposed to do something but I don't know what!'


Lol. This cracks me up.

Watson is easily frustrated in most things, but much less so in nosework. I can tell if he's getting a little frustrated at not finding something, but he hasn't quit yet. The closest he has come is stopping to look at me if he hasn't found something in a long time, but I think he's checking to see if there are actually more hides. If I say "find it" he's back to work. It's pretty much the only activity that can really focus him for long periods of time.


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## KBLover

Laurelin said:


> I would probably use birch or something even if you were doing this solely for fun. I like that we can just put the odor on the q-tips and stick the q-tips in small things easily. I agree with elrohwen that you want something unique that he is not going to come across a lot. They tend to use essential oil which is really strong at first but ime fades over time. My trainer is using the same q-tips she's been using for 2 years even though we can't smell them anymore. You can make your own kit or buy them online. Mine was $10 from my trainer and I got a jar full of q-tips, an aerated tin can, 2 lipstick tubes, a sample vial and a tin to keep them in. The tin is in my fridge.


I think I'll invest in that $8 kit elrohwen pointed me to. Sounds like the perfect thing to get started with as well as keeping up with the food hunting. (Did a few hides with edges of the hot dogs I made for lunch - I made one mistake of putting it in a room with the ceiling fan going - probably screwed up his searching. The ones in the living room with the "dead" air he found, but still had to search. 

It's amazing how fast it seems to mentally fatigue him. I did like 3 searches and the stopped (with praise and another tidbit at the end) and then when I was finishing making my lunch, he was looking like he was half asleep LOL.




Laurelin said:


> There are smoke sticks if you really want to see how scent moves in a room. It's interesting stuff for sure and we do some of that. Watch the dog work, then try to figure out how the scent is moving then see for sure. Scent catches on some weird things and sometimes the dog will pick it up across the room seemingly out of nowhere.
> 
> It sounds like he's air scenting which most dogs do. Does he ever clear out his nose? That's one clear sign the dog is searching. You'll hear them huff then clear out the nasal passage.


When I put the food in the room with the ceiling fan, I could tell he was sorta mixed up by him getting in the general area and the he was like turning around in circles like he was trying to "chase" the scent. Right when I was about to point that one out to him, he found it. 

In the living room, he did catch the scents from the "oddest" angles. One was like the opposite end of the room like you mentioned. Pretty fascinating stuff.

Yeah, I hear him clearing out his nose and heard his sniffs as well. I noticed he sniffed up at the couch and under it and the chair, etc. In those smaller spaces, I really heard him ramp up the sniffing.

He did something different this time. He usually checks the stairs (I've fed him/done tricks there before) leading to the second floor, but this time, he kept going up, checking each stair and then all the way upstairs and started searching there for a while! (not sure where, I stayed on the first floor) He never did that before - I'm going to have to start putting some there now so he can find them and keep that in his mind. 




Laurelin said:


> Mia keeps the nose to the ground more but will also get to high ground and start air scenting. In my living room she will climb up the couch and just stand and sniff in all directions then take off. Yesterday we were searching some vehicles and she climbed up a trailer and started air scenting. Since there's no trail, they can't follow just along the ground. Summer air scents pretty much exclusively. It often looks like she's not searching but she really is. As she progresses it is becoming more obvious and methodical.


That Mia! That's pretty awesome! I'd love to see that in action. Wally's actions sound like Summer's. A lot of times I think he's just trying to see it and not sniff it. I guess he's the dog so he knows what he's doing when it comes to scent! 




Laurelin said:


> If you can ever get someone else to set your hides (once you get that far) it is really eye opening to do so. Tells you a lot about your dog and communication when you really have to trust your dog to tell you correctly. It is much easier when I know where the hides are!


Hahaha I ran into that with my "glove in the leaves" attempt at it. *I* would lose track of where it was so it was up to trusting him to find it  Fortunately, he did, or I'd need to buy a new pair of gloves!  Same for my hack attempt at teaching blind retrieves. Whew that was an adventure, but like you said, I really had to communicate and trust him to use his senses and tell me if he's confused, etc.


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## KBLover

Laurelin said:


> Yes frustration definitely comes out in several ways. For Summer she starts offering tricks and doing things to try to prompt something from me.


This is so Wally. 

At points during that dining room (room with the ceiling fan) search, he found the ball that we've often played with and tried pawing it (unless he was trying to move it to see if something was behind it..? Because he does know how to do that too...)




elrohwen said:


> Lol. This cracks me up.
> 
> Watson is easily frustrated in most things, but much less so in nosework. I can tell if he's getting a little frustrated at not finding something, but he hasn't quit yet. The closest he has come is stopping to look at me if he hasn't found something in a long time, but I think he's checking to see if there are actually more hides. If I say "find it" he's back to work. It's pretty much the only activity that can really focus him for long periods of time.


Wally's done this, too. I usually take it as a sign that he thinks he's found them all (or actually has found them all) and is checking in to see like you said.


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## Laurelin

Couple random thoughts... I would quote but they're kind of random lol

I might would scale things back a bit- doing the entire floor or upstairs and downstairs as one search is a lot for a new dog. My dogs are just now getting to the point where they can search 3 rooms at a time or 3 vehicles. Summer is still mostly on one room at a time. It is like training anything- you want the dog 100% successful well before the dog starts to burn out or frustrate or they need hints. We start stupid easy- empty room and boxes. Then we put objects out with the boxes. Then we start using more 'real' scenarios- full interior searches and outdoors, etc. And when odor is added, we go back to only boxes.

Let's say the dog is getting frustrated and not searching.... you still want to end on a good note with the dog finding the hide and you want to avoid showing the dog where it is or 'helping' them. What we do is when the dog is busy looking away/sniffing away we will make the hide easier. Move it lower to the ground, make it more open, or move a box by it (since they know boxes often have food). Or if the source isn't paired with food, we may add food. 

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that we double reward when using food. They are rewarded once from the food already there and the handler also gives the dog a food reward. You are starting to build up sticking with the hide and also making the dog aware that rewards come from you so when you wean off of food at the hide, they will be more inclined to stick. Once we move to odor we pair food +odor a while- depends on instructor. I will reward 2-4 times at the source then give the dog the cue to move on. You don't want a dog that does a quick drive by and finds the food but moves on- that's hard to read.


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## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that we double reward when using food. They are rewarded once from the food already there and the handler also gives the dog a food reward. You are starting to build up sticking with the hide and also making the dog aware that rewards come from you so when you wean off of food at the hide, they will be more inclined to stick. Once we move to odor we pair food +odor a while- depends on instructor. I will reward 2-4 times at the source then give the dog the cue to move on. You don't want a dog that does a quick drive by and finds the food but moves on- that's hard to read.


Yep, every step of the way in my training there has been a food reward at source. Even when it was just finding hot dogs in boxes he got treats from my hand at the source. When we started odor paired with food and the occasional odor alone I had to up my reward from the zuke's treats I had to deli turkey. Jubel would find the birch odor by itself but would run on before I could reward when he didn't find food with the odor. I think he did know I had zuke's treats to offer but he loves the thrill of the search more than zuke's treats so he wouldn't stop. The deli turkey was just barely enough to get him to stick around and I had to jackpot it to really bring the point home that he should stick around at the odor. 

Even earlier in our training at times he's eat the hot dog and run on looking for the next hide without eating the treats I was offering. This is an extremely food motivated dog who will work his butt off for kibble at home, being able to search is that motivating to him that normal treats weren't going to slow him down. He is slowly starting to look for the reward from me when he finds odor now because we almost never pair with food now. We don't have an alert like Laurelin has with Mia but that wouldn't work well with Jubel anyways. He doesn't do gentle pawing... pretty much ever... things would get damaged if I tried to get him to paw at a hide for sure. So for us it's just me watching his body language, it's mostly when he stops moving and really starts nosing around a specific spot. Hopefully we'll get a little more refined by our first trial in November, assuming we get in; registration is in a few weeks.


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## KBLover

What are opinions about this kit:

http://www.caninetrainingsystems.com/product/NOS-KIT/Nose-Work-Training-Kit

I was thinking of getting this next payday (and put the $8 towards it) and go ahead and get a full kit + the cool case to keep everything in. Meanwhile, I can start trying the basics and whatnot until it shows up.


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## elrohwen

Personally, I wouldn't get that kit. I would look for one with more containers to put the scent in, since that only has the one metal tin. There are various straws, pipets, etc that some kits come with. Also, you can do all searches with just one scent, and the dog isn't trained to discriminate one vs the other, so getting all three up front is kind of overkill, IMO. I would just start with the birch scent, plus some little containers. My kit also came with tweezers so I don't have to touch the q-tips.


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## KBLover

elrohwen said:


> Personally, I wouldn't get that kit. I would look for one with more containers to put the scent in, since that only has the one metal tin. There are various straws, pipets, etc that some kits come with. Also, you can do all searches with just one scent, and the dog isn't trained to discriminate one vs the other, so getting all three up front is kind of overkill, IMO. I would just start with the birch scent, plus some little containers. My kit also came with tweezers so I don't have to touch the q-tips.


Gotcha 

Would getting the starting kit you mentioned earlier and maybe an extra tin or two a good idea? Or maybe the $24 kit and an extra tin (that one comes with a case and tweezers and a vial for used swabs)


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## elrohwen

I wouldn't get multiple scents at all. Most dogs don't move on to the second scent for quite a while, and that's mostly for trials. I would just get one scent, plus some container things and tweezers maybe. The $8 kit I have fits into a very small box, so you could find something to put it in other than a fancy case. One scent would be much easier to start your training.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> I wouldn't get multiple scents at all. Most dogs don't move on to the second scent for quite a while, and that's mostly for trials. I would just get one scent, plus some container things and tweezers maybe. The $8 kit I have fits into a very small box, so you could find something to put it in other than a fancy case. One scent would be much easier to start your training.


Actually moving on to other scents is pretty easy, once they get the idea of finding a scent adding a new one isn't a big deal. I've only gone to three travel classes so far but Jubel has been exposed to the other two scents at two of the three classes. We are going to the beginner travel classes and they don't specifically start working on the new scents until intermediate but we still get a little exposure to them. 

In my first class there where a bunch of blind hides that I wasn't told until after had clove and anise. They all had birch but a few were also paired with clove or anise. The last travel class I went to before the ORT the instructor accidentally only put out the anise boxes instead of birch for our quick mock ORT at the end... Well both of our dogs alerted on the anise. They know they are looking for odor on boxes so it was enough for them to stop and alert even with very little exposure to anise at this point.


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## elrohwen

I didnt mean to imply that it was hard to move to the other scents, just that it's not necessary in order to train and search. It's really only necessary for trailing because they require the other scents at higher levels. To just play around for fun or get the first title, you really don't need them at all. I would just spend my money on more scent containers before spending it on other scents if you're starting out.


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## dagwall

Agreed.

I haven't actually bought anything at all myself yet. But our instructor did give us all a small jar of birch scent q-tips to practice with, a small bady food sized jar. I'm strongly considering ordering some tins and magnets now though. Just used cut straws so far for my own practicing.


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## KBLover

Two things:

First - ordered that starter kit - can't wait to get it 

Second - Earlier this evening, I got six 4" boxes and 3 little jewelry type boxes from Michael's. I cut slits in the little boxes and put some of his bacon treats in it. I then hid it in a 4" box and put three of them out in the living room (out of his sight).

At first, he kept trying to pick up the boxes (he thought I meant find the boxes it seems) and then he smelled the inside and found the one with the treats. 

Then, I think he was trying to get the small box to come out of the big one (since he now knows they might be inside). 

When he found it and it was clear he was trying to get at the small box (his head stayed inside the box, he lingers around it), I rewarded with treats (other than the ones in the box) at the box itself if I could (he's used to coming to me for treats when I mark). 

So a few more trails and he's getting the idea of looking inside the boxes. I think he started sniffing the air around the boxes as well because he'd go to a box, sort of "skim" it and move on, though if he wasn't certain, he'd stick his head inside and sniff. 

I also hid the small box outside of the bigger ones a couple times and rewarded when he lingered over the smaller box (treats from me, put on the smaller box). Then I put the small box in a larger one and put it on the couch. This one was tougher, but then he thought to sniff up on the chair and stuff, and he found it. He couldn't get it, but his nose was clearly pointed at the box and he was there steady and sniffing. 

Lastly, I put two boxes near each other, one of them with the scented small box inside. He found the right box and this time let the treats in the small box in addition as a jackpot and that was the end.

He got quite into it so much that sometimes I couldn't even give him the treats immediately because he was focused on getting at the small box!  I saw he did have his nose on the floor more - perhaps the scent was seeping out the bottom of the 4" box even though the treats were in the smaller box inside? 

All-in-all, it went pretty well. He was enjoying it, though I could tell it was working him pretty good. He was still moving around eagerly and trying to search. Now he's laid out beside me just totally knocked out. Haven't seen him that tired after "find it" in a long, long time.


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## sassafras

Squash's first nosework class was tonight! I'm pretty sure he thinks he died and went to heaven, because he was SUPPOSED to investigate things with not a "leave it" or "on by" to be heard. 

This is a summary of our night:

Instructor: Sometimes dogs will just hang around us and wait for us to tell them what to do this first session, don't get discouraged if your dog won't leave you alone at first and check out the boxes.
Squash: Totally ignores me and plows through all the boxes immediately.

Instructor: I like to start with the find in a flat box in case some of the dogs are sensitive about the environment or sticking their heads into boxes.
Squash: Sticks his head in all the boxes.

Instructor: Well it looks like Squash gets it and is a happy searcher, so let's make him a little bit harder puzzle and see what he does. *puts find in a box with two more boxes stacked on top*
Squash: Flings the top two boxes out of the way.


He was using treats for the finds to start instead of scents. He said this is his preference in case a dog has some environmental sensitivity so they don't make any negative associations with the scent and anything in the environment that makes them uneasy, which I thought was interesting.


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## Laurelin

Sounds like a good time!  That's how Summer was to start with too-she just would tackle all the boxes till she found food.


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## elrohwen

Yay! Glad you had fun!

We had some dogs who were very handler focused in the beginning, spending lots of time looking for instruction. I think some owners even liked that, and found it hard to let go and let the dog work independently. Watson has never had that issue. Haha. Part of it is that he's young and has a lot less obedience training than some of these dogs, but he's also just an independent hunter. One look at the boxes and it was "Lemme go, mom!" He drags me into the search area and wants nothing to do with my attempts to get him searching in a pattern.

We also have an awesome little cairn terrier who routinely jumps into the boxes when they are too big for her to stick her head into. Love her. 

We didn't start using odor at all until the second class, so the first 6 weeks was all food. Watson( and some of the others) could have been started on odor almost immediately I think, since the search instinct was so strong for him, but for other dogs it definitely helped to wait I think. They needed the time to get the idea of the game and build their drive to search. I never considered that part of the reason for waiting was in case the dog had a bad experience, but that makes sense. A box falling on or near a more sensitive dog could be tough when the game is so new.


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## elrohwen

Had a really good class last night. We worked on leash handling skills to search every container, by going up and down three rows of boxes, then some modifications of that. The last search was off leash. He clearly prefers the off leash searches and doesn't appreciate me holding him back to search everything. Haha.

For the first time, Watson really started alerting and sticking with hides more. I think something may have clicked for him since the last session of classes. On the first hide he actually sat down and looked at me which he has never done, and at some of the others he pawed at the box. I was especially pleased because I would give him a reward, then if I paused he would nudge the box or paw it, showing me the hide again, instead of running off to the next one, and he never tried to run to the next before I gave the cue.


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## sassafras

Second night tonight, Squash had a blast! I remembered the GoPro tonight. Sadly, I accidentally hit the start button twice in a row (thus, stopping) for our second turn, which was the coolest.  Off leash and had boxes and finds all around the cluster of fencing in the middle of the room. It was really cool to see him starting to do stuff like abruptly cut over to a find while he was walking by. Next week I won't fail.

Anyway, here are a couple of snippets from tonight.


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## trainingjunkie

Looks like a lot of fun!!! I am so jealous!!!

Are you working with food at this point?


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## sassafras

Yes, still food. The instructor is tentatively going to start pairing the scents with food around the 4th or 5th week, he said tonight.


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## elrohwen

Awesome videos! Squash looks like he's having a blast and is into the game already. I'm interested to hear how it goes when you introduce odor, and how your instructor introduces it.


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## KBLover

Here's Wally doing it - searching for clusters of treats hidden around the room. Since I"m recording myself, couldn't use boxes and such to reward at it (the video would look like a mess - it got bad enough at the end with the one treat that slid away from him)


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## elrohwen

How cute! He's such a ball of poof. I love how methodical he is.

I need to get a video of Watson searching off leash. He's a whirling dervish. Our instructor keeps saying that he'll slow down as he gains experience, but I don't think he'll slow down until he's older, regardless of experience.


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## Laurelin

I love the videos! Methodical was exactly the word I was going to use for Wally. He reminds me somewhat of Rose. Seems like such a sweet little boy. 

Squash is so happy! I love it! He's looking good.

Y'all inspired me to get video of Summer searching but we did a hike this morning, came home and played around with my jumps and weave poles. I think Summer is TIRED. She was so not feeling the searching. Mia was still going good though.


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## Laurelin

Both straight odor, no food. Summer's been on straight odor for about 2-3 weeks. I hadn't ever gotten video of Summer and she was tired today! We've been busy at the park and doing agility stuff so she was getting worn out. 

Vehicle: Mia first then Summer. Summer cracks me up- so HAPPY. 






Outdoors: Summer first then Mia. I thought it was interesting the way Mia hooks around and gets the odor on the second hide.


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## sassafras

I love how Wally is so careful, instead of SMASH ALL THE (metaphorical) BOXES.

Oh god Summer. I love when dogs hook like that. During my recording fail, Squash had circled around one find twice without finding it, and then reversed direction and started circling the other was when as soon as he passed it he did that stop and hook around right to it. It's so cool to see them do that.


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## KBLover

Ah, so Wally's being methodical - not slow. Cool, that's just the way he searches? Given that three of you who are into nosework complimented his procedure, that makes me feel better for sure. I thought maybe I had messed something up because he seemed "kinda slow". 

The beginner kit is on its way, so what's a good way to start the pairing of the odor with the food? Do I just put the treat on top of the odor box and do the same reward at the box as well when he finds it? Do I need to "charge" the odor (like with the clicker? Build up a positive association with the odor so he's attracted to it and wants to find it)?


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## Laurelin

sassafras said:


> I love how Wally is so careful, instead of SMASH ALL THE (metaphorical) BOXES.
> 
> Oh god Summer. I love when dogs hook like that. During my recording fail, Squash had circled around one find twice without finding it, and then reversed direction and started circling the other was when as soon as he passed it he did that stop and hook around right to it. It's so cool to see them do that.


I need to get a video of Summer when I haven't walked and worked her so much before. She's HILARIOUS. Maybe I can get one soon... 

That hook is such a good indicator they're on scent. Sometimes I worry they'll give themselves whiplash doing it, lol. It is interesting to me to see where they catch the scent.



KBLover said:


> Ah, so Wally's being methodical - not slow. Cool, that's just the way he searches? Given that three of you who are into nosework complimented his procedure, that makes me feel better for sure. I thought maybe I had messed something up because he seemed "kinda slow".


Imo, search 'style' varies from dog to dog quite a lot. The older labs in my classes have been very slow and careful about finding things. Very mellow and chill. Mia is pretty methodical but moves fairly fast and Summer is a spaz. My trainer's lab/pointer/pit/? is really wild searching as was the purebred GSP I watched work. Lot of air scenting and spinning- I don't think you could have worked that dog without it being a harness. The belgian is very fast and focused similar to Mia.

Now, if you're competing you are timed and have a time limit. Top placements go to the dog that finds it the fastest too. 

I think as long as Wally is having fun and staying engaged then let him have at it! I'm not really sure there's a way to train a dog to search a specific way. I have noticed Summer is getting more methodical the more we play.



> The beginner kit is on its way, so what's a good way to start the pairing of the odor with the food? Do I just put the treat on top of the odor box and do the same reward at the box as well when he finds it? Do I need to "charge" the odor (like with the clicker? Build up a positive association with the odor so he's attracted to it and wants to find it)?


We just pair up the food and the odor in the boxes at first. Just one right next to/on top of the other and then the handler also rewards. Really pairing is essentially 'charging the odor' imo. They already know the game of finding food now you're exposing them to finding food where they smell birch. Eventually you remove the food at the source so they just find the birch and know that finding birch gets them food.


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## KBLover

Laurelin said:


> That hook is such a good indicator they're on scent. Sometimes I worry they'll give themselves whiplash doing it, lol. It is interesting to me to see where they catch the scent.


That's something (the hook) that I don't see Wally doing much. Maybe it's because he's slowly investigating/methodical? But, yeah, I agree - its fascinating to see them grab scent and how they zone in on it once they have a lead on where the source is.






Laurelin said:


> Imo, search 'style' varies from dog to dog quite a lot. The older labs in my classes have been very slow and careful about finding things. Very mellow and chill. Mia is pretty methodical but moves fairly fast and Summer is a spaz. My trainer's lab/pointer/pit/? is really wild searching as was the purebred GSP I watched work. Lot of air scenting and spinning- I don't think you could have worked that dog without it being a harness. The belgian is very fast and focused similar to Mia.
> 
> Now, if you're competing you are timed and have a time limit. Top placements go to the dog that finds it the fastest too.
> 
> I think as long as Wally is having fun and staying engaged then let him have at it! I'm not really sure there's a way to train a dog to search a specific way. I have noticed Summer is getting more methodical the more we play.


Yeah, he's loving it!  I've been "searching" for stuff to use on our walks and such. He showed interest in a left behind drink holder from McDonald's or such, so I took it. If I ever find a box or a stray mug like I did one time (why a mug was outside in the middle of a field...) it's coming, too. I call it recycling LOL

No doubt, I don't plan to try to change how he does it or whatnot. I accept whatever he does and just try to hone it so he can be successful. 




Laurelin said:


> We just pair up the food and the odor in the boxes at first. Just one right next to/on top of the other and then the handler also rewards. Really pairing is essentially 'charging the odor' imo. They already know the game of finding food now you're exposing them to finding food where they smell birch. Eventually you remove the food at the source so they just find the birch and know that finding birch gets them food.


Awesome, thanks for the info - I can't wait for it to get here to start trying him on some "real" odor. Of course, I'll still used hard-boiled eggs and other such "scent filled" foods as well - especially when he's really hungry (he's a "fast methodical" then LOL)


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## dagwall

Here's video from one of our first classes pairing odor with food. She's holding the box out for him at the start so he gets lots of odor as he eats the treats. Been a while but I'm pretty sure all of those hides are odor paired with hotdog and she'd put new hides down in one area while he looked in another.







This is a later class and I'm pretty sure the last hide was unpaired odor. So he sticks his head in the box and stops a second because he smelled the birch but didn't find hotdog so ran on. We called him back so he could be rewarded at site for finding the birch. Now with more experience with just birch hides he'll usually stay at odor until I reward.






I should try and get some new video of Jubel searching. Though I'd either need to find a good place to set the camera to show the whole search area or get someone else to film for me.


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## dagwall

So we've never done a search in the backyard before so he wasn't really in work mode here. He found the first hide easily enough but needed some help getting the second one with me just moving over to the general area and eventually calling him over. He also pees in the middle. First off I should have pottied him before hand but really... the yard is mostly just his bathroom so I'm not really looking to ever discourage him from peeing there.





This second video is a bit long and I actually ran out of space on my memory card about 15 seconds before he finally does get the last hide. I need to learn how to edit videos to cut out the extra but until then... here is a long video where he just starts to eat grass in the middle before I get him back on task haha. The first hide you get to really see him work out the source of the scent. He knows it's there some place but it takes some time to zero in on the top of the AC unit.


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## KBLover

Wow, I don't know what birch smells like to him, but he's ALL OVER the box the kit came in, and when I opened it, he was diving into it, sniffing the daylights out of it.

Then when I was checking out the swabs and putting some in the tin box, he was trying to get at them in the jar and all up on the box. 

Sheez, Wally. 

Do I dare just try odor directly? That kind of reaction makes me just want to try it and if I can't exploit this.


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## elrohwen

KBLover said:


> Wow, I don't know what birch smells like to him, but he's ALL OVER the box the kit came in, and when I opened it, he was diving into it, sniffing the daylights out of it.
> 
> Then when I was checking out the swabs and putting some in the tin box, he was trying to get at them in the jar and all up on the box.
> 
> Sheez, Wally.
> 
> Do I dare just try odor directly? That kind of reaction makes me just want to try it and if I can't exploit this.


As I understand it, you definitely can try it directly if he seems interested. Just make sure that when he finds it, you swoop in and reward right on top of the scent. Rewarding right at the source teaches them to indicate the source of odor, rather than indicating on the fringe.

Also, something I learned this week, is that you are supposed to use 3 q-tips per container. I was using one (so were others in my class), but my nosework instructor said that 3 is standard. Not sure if it would matter to Wally, but one dog in our class had a hard time with one q-tip when practicing at home.


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## dagwall

I don't know if it's the birch odor itself or that it has been linked to food for Jubel but he does want to eat the birch hides if he can get at them. If you watched my video above with the hide on top of the AC unit, if I hadn't picked it up after he started pawing at it to get it down he would have eaten it. I've prevented all attempts so far but I'm 98% certain that's what he's trying to do. Silly food obsessed dog.


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## KBLover

dagwall said:


> I don't know if it's the birch odor itself or that it has been linked to food for Jubel but he does want to eat the birch hides if he can get at them. If you watched my video above with the hide on top of the AC unit, if I hadn't picked it up after he started pawing at it to get it down he would have eaten it. I've prevented all attempts so far but I'm 98% certain that's what he's trying to do. Silly food obsessed dog.


That's what Wally's trying to do, too. He's pawing at it and trying to open it LOL.

Maybe for Wally, he just assumes anything he's hunting for is food, so whatever is in this shiny box has to be food, too! Dog logic.


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## Laurelin

I liked Jubel's videos! He looks great!


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## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> I liked Jubel's videos! He looks great!


Thank you.


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## sassafras

We went outside to the parking lot today. I thought Squash was going to be really distracted but he was pretty focused (except peeing once where another dog had already peed). For our last turn, which unfortunately I couldn't video because it was too dark, the instructor started putting finds outside of the boxes. Squash had a surprising amount of trouble with that, he'd get near one and then be SURE it had to be in a box. (The instructor said he was too "honest" aheheh.)Then finally he found one and the light bulb went on, which was cool to see.


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## Kayota

I might be starting nosework depending on the timing, I don't remember when she's starting the class and I move away in the summer (hopefully), but if it's offered while I'm still in Illinois I'll be doing it for sure


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## Laurelin

It took Summer forever to figure out things could be on vertical surfaces. Cars especially seemed to confuse her. But now I have the opposite problem in that if I put one on the ground near a car, she expects it to be on the car.

Dogs are funny and Squash is a good boy.


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## dagwall

Went to a travel class this morning... Jubel fulfilled my suspicions and ate some birch scented q-tips. It was a ground hide in a centrifuge tube, *sniff, sniff, scarf* The instructor didn't really believe me he wanted to eat them until it happened. Again, silly food obsessed dog.


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## dagwall

Just registered for our first NW1 trial, should find out if we make it in on the 6th. Now just to work on getting a clear alert from Jubel when he finds odor by Nov. 16th haha.


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## KBLover

elrohwen said:


> As I understand it, you definitely can try it directly if he seems interested. Just make sure that when he finds it, you swoop in and reward right on top of the scent. Rewarding right at the source teaches them to indicate the source of odor, rather than indicating on the fringe.
> 
> Also, something I learned this week, is that you are supposed to use 3 q-tips per container. I was using one (so were others in my class), but my nosework instructor said that 3 is standard. Not sure if it would matter to Wally, but one dog in our class had a hard time with one q-tip when practicing at home.


He seems to be getting it, but had no idea about the q-tips!

I'll have to make sure there's three in there. I was wondering about that, actually, how many to use (the kit doesn't come with instructions...why don't things come with instructions?!) 

Yeah, I swoop in with something he loves (lately, hard-boiled eggs and bits of salmon) when he finds it and has his nose almost on top of it or he's pawing it.




dagwall said:


> Just registered for our first NW1 trial, should find out if we make it in on the 6th. Now just to work on getting a clear alert from Jubel when he finds odor by Nov. 16th haha.


The alert part - that's something else I'm at a loss about - what kind of alert do you go for? a bark? some sort of behavior (pawing it, picking it up)? Not "there" yet, but that doesn't stop me from wondering about it.


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## dagwall

KBLover said:


> The alert part - that's something else I'm at a loss about - what kind of alert do you go for? a bark? some sort of behavior (pawing it, picking it up)? Not "there" yet, but that doesn't stop me from wondering about it.


Opinions vary about alerts from trainer to trainer and between individuals. Most say to just keep training with your dog and watching them closely and they'll start giving you an alert somehow. Others like Laurelin take matters into their own hands and train an alert themselves, Mia will paw at the hide as you'll see in her videos. For small dogs like Mia and/or dog who will be gentle about it pawing can be a good alert. Jubel is too rough when it comes to pawing at things so this would be a poor alert for me to encourage with him. At the trial level the dogs aren't allowed to disturb the hide which pawing can possibly do.

From what I've heard common alerts are sitting, barking, nosing, looking back to the handler for their treat, etc. 

At a trial they are VERY good at hiding hides so you will not see it so you are relying 100% on the dog to alert you. You will not be seeing a tin, straw, etc so you need to be able to read your dog. In signing up for the trial today they asked what his alert is and I had to enter something. At the NW1 level a set alert isn't required but they still wanted an idea of what the judge might see. You won't be penalized if the dog has/does a different alert though. I just put "stays at site of hide" to have something to enter.


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## KBLover

Wally doing searches (all pieced together) with just odor and in the boxes I bought.






Thoughts welcome.


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## Laurelin

I like how he kept picking up the boxes, lol.

Yeah basically what Jubel said... there's lots of ideas for alerts. We probably shouldn't have done pawing at the source but it's done now and she's very consistent. I'm not 100% sure how I'll do Summer's alert.


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## KBLover

Laurelin said:


> I like how he kept picking up the boxes, lol.
> 
> Yeah basically what Jubel said... there's lots of ideas for alerts. We probably shouldn't have done pawing at the source but it's done now and she's very consistent. I'm not 100% sure how I'll do Summer's alert.


I know, right? It's like he was bringing them to some light so he can see or something LOL. 

Right now, I know he's found it because he stays there either with his head in the box/at the tin or is trying to get it.


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## sassafras

dagwall said:


> Just registered for our first NW1 trial, should find out if we make it in on the 6th. Now just to work on getting a clear alert from Jubel when he finds odor by Nov. 16th haha.


Aheeee! This is super exciting!


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## sassafras

We started working on vehicles last night, no boxes. It went pretty well. I was practicing on the car at home today. We haven't really had any "homework" but I wanted to work on my handling skills a little bit. 

At first he was confused while we were hanging around the car until he caught the scent and found a find and then I could practically see a little light bulb go on in his head. "We can... we can do this ANYWHERE?!" Aheheh.


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## elrohwen

Watson *still* has a really hard time with vehicles. It's totally my fault since I don't practice that at home really, but it's the only aspect of nosework that hasn't come to him immediately. He's always convinced that the car is just one part of the environment, and would rather run off and check everything else first. I spend the whole time handling him to make sure he actually stays close enough to the car to check it out.


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## KBLover

elrohwen said:


> Watson *still* has a really hard time with vehicles. It's totally my fault since I don't practice that at home really, but it's the only aspect of nosework that hasn't come to him immediately. He's always convinced that the car is just one part of the environment, and would rather run off and check everything else first. I spend the whole time handling him to make sure he actually stays close enough to the car to check it out.


Oh you can do that - handling the dog so he stays in the area?

I ask because sometimes Wally will wonder out (still searching, but going away from the search area), and I didn't want to tell him to go back in because then I'd be giving him a "hint" instead of letting his nose tell him he's on the wrong track.

Same for a hide that's in the room but he's just not figuring out for whatever reason. Would it be giving too much of a hint to sort of "direct" him to the area of the room, especially if it's in a totally new part of the room (like a corner he never searched before so he's not including it in his searching)?


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## elrohwen

KBLover said:


> Oh you can do that - handling the dog so he stays in the area?


Yes, definitely! Most of our searches in class are on leash and we discuss various handling techniques. It's fun for a dog to search off leash, and that's what I do at home, but for NW competition it's important to practice leash skills because you can't always (or don't want to) have the dog off leash. We have done exercises where there are lines of boxes on the ground (maybe 4 rows of 5-7 each?) and the goal is to handle your dog so he searches every single box. Left to his own devices, Watson would run around willy-nilly and find at least most of the hides, but on leash I can be sure that he checks the entire area and doesn't miss anything. For vehicles, on leash (at least at first) is important so the dog stays in the area you want to search and doesn't get distracted running off around the room.

ETA: For giving hints, I have been taught that it's appropriate to use your body language to help your dog. Of course, you don't want to be showing him where it is every time, but by walking around the search area you will influence where he searches. If he is really missing something and not even checking out that area of the room, you can walk over there and he will likely follow and start searching there. In competition, you wouldn't know where the hides where, but it would definitely be helpful to direct your dog to search certain areas he's missed, via your leash handling or body language while off leash.


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## KBLover

elrohwen said:


> Yes, definitely! Most of our searches in class are on leash and we discuss various handling techniques. It's fun for a dog to search off leash, and that's what I do at home, but for NW competition it's important to practice leash skills because you can't always (or don't want to) have the dog off leash. We have done exercises where there are lines of boxes on the ground (maybe 4 rows of 5-7 each?) and the goal is to handle your dog so he searches every single box. Left to his own devices, Watson would run around willy-nilly and find at least most of the hides, but on leash I can be sure that he checks the entire area and doesn't miss anything. For vehicles, on leash (at least at first) is important so the dog stays in the area you want to search and doesn't get distracted running off around the room.
> 
> ETA: For giving hints, I have been taught that it's appropriate to use your body language to help your dog. Of course, you don't want to be showing him where it is every time, but by walking around the search area you will influence where he searches. If he is really missing something and not even checking out that area of the room, you can walk over there and he will likely follow and start searching there. In competition, you wouldn't know where the hides where, but it would definitely be helpful to direct your dog to search certain areas he's missed, via your leash handling or body language while off leash.


Cool - thanks for this.

I'll have to start practicing on-leash searching too now. I don't plan to compete, but I still want to do it right just in case some day I do compete either with Wally or some other dog sometime.


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## Laurelin

My dogs are the opposite- if there's a vehicle in the area, they want to stay on the vehicle vs look around the rest of the place. Silly dogs.


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## dagwall

From what my trainers have said most dogs do well with staying on vehicles for searches. They seems to get that is the search area usually. 

In classes for off leash searches if the dog is having trouble finding the hide or just not going to the area the hide is in it's very common to draw their attention to the area. Either by calling them over to the general area, possibly moving the hide lower if it's up high, placing a treat under an elevated hide, tossing a box over near the hide, etc. The idea isn't to show them the hide but you do want to get them looking in the right area, this game is all about setting them up to succeed.

When searching on leash and they are in the right area you just plant yourself, possibly shortening the slack on the leash so they are stuck in the area they need to search.


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## sassafras

dagwall said:


> From what my trainers have said most dogs do well with staying on vehicles for searches. They seems to get that is the search area usually.


That's what our instructor said, too, that they generally learn that the rules are that it will be on the car somewhere.


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## elrohwen

Yeah, Watson seems to be the only dog in the class who doesn't get it yet. He needs more practice. Right now he will search down one side of the car, then try to bolt off at a right angle to search somewhere else in the room. It's really hard to keep him with the car. I should do more car searches at home on my own, but I haven't had time lately. He just needs to slow down and focus on what he's doing. 

Dagwall, we use the same techniques you mentioned during off leash and on leash searches.


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## sassafras

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, Watson seems to be the only dog in the class who doesn't get it yet. He needs more practice. Right now he will search down one side of the car, then try to bolt off at a right angle to search somewhere else in the room. It's really hard to keep him with the car. I should do more car searches at home on my own, but I haven't had time lately. He just needs to slow down and focus on what he's doing.


What our trainer recommends is to keep their leash a bit short (about 3') and maintain a little pressure on the leash while they approach the car. If they aren't focused, just stand where you are for a minute until they focus on the car. Then when they give an indication that they are actively searching for a find, let out a little slack and let them work. If they seem to get a little distracted by something away from the car, he recommends just making a quick 180 spin to interrupt their little brains. 

One thing that keeping a little tension on the leash REALLY helps with is that when they are coming around one of the corners of the car, they can't charge around the corners or "wing out" very easily - it tends to keep them hugging the car. The instructor demonstrated with a slack leash and a tense leash and it made a huge difference in multiple dogs. Squash has a tendency to start out just charging around the car. Like, he knows the car is something important but it takes a few minutes for him to settle down, engage his nose and brain and in the meantime he just runs around it in his usual bull-in-a-china-shop way. Keeping a little tension on the line REALLY makes him slow down and think a little bit more about what he's doing, then his brain and nose engage.

There's one dog in class who is super methodical. She's a tiny bit intimidated by the car, but once she decides it's ok to search she will walk really slowly around the car and search every square inch very thoroughly. Then there are a couple of dogs who are just sort of all systems go from the get-go, like Squash. It's super interesting to see how the other dogs work as much as your own.


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## elrohwen

Sass, that is exactly how we do it, but he's very hard to control. I should take a video sometime. Basically, he is so amped that he shoots off in different directions at top speed, putting all of his weight into the harness. I spend the whole time hanging on for dear life. He is just bored with the car and assumes there must be other hides in the room that he can get first so his attention whips from car to environment quickly. He never starts the search until he is focused on the car and he is getting faster with that, but I typically have to wait at least a few seconds for him to decide that the car is where he should go. 

We introduced cars very systematically, but he is not a systematic searcher. I'm sure more practice will help him get the idea.


Eta: as an example of how jacked he is while doing nosework, when we enter the building he is pulling so hard that his feet are slipping on the concrete as I hold him back. So it's not that he's distracted from searching, it's that he's sure the hide must be somewhere else because the car is boring. He's so ridiculous. I'm glad he's not heavier, because he would drag me on my face. I don't think the leash is ever loose while he's searching.


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## dagwall

*sigh* We are on the waiting list for the November trial. Still a decent chance we'll still get in but it's wait and see for now.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> *sigh* We are on the waiting list for the November trial. Still a decent chance we'll still get in but it's wait and see for now.


Booo!! Good luck!


If you do get in, is it possible to earn your NW1 title in one trial? Or will you need to sign up for multiple trials?


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> If you do get in, is it possible to earn your NW1 title in one trial? Or will you need to sign up for multiple trials?


I'm not positive but I believe you can earn it in one. I think you just need 100 points which is possible if you find the hide in all four elements with no faults in the allotted time.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I'm not positive but I believe you can earn it in one. I think you just need 100 points which is possible if you find the hide in all four elements with no faults in the allotted time.


I thought my instructor said that it could be done, but I wasn't sure. There are so few around that it certainly makes sense that it would be possible to title in one trial.


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## sassafras

I registered Squash with NACSW to be prepared in case I ever decide to do an ORT and/or trial with him someday, and they sent me the most adorable wee scorebook. With a place to put his picture and everything.


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## trainingjunkie

Cool! Picture of scorebook please!


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## sassafras

trainingjunkie said:


> Cool! Picture of scorebook please!


I left it at work! I'll try to remember tomorrow.


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## elrohwen

I signed up last month and got my little book too. It's adorable. I still can't figure out which picture I want to use though. 

I'm just hoping I don't lose it before we get the chance to actually trial. Haha


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## dagwall

I have all my nosework stuff in a canvas tote bag so I don't lose anything. From what I've heard you don't even need the score book anymore, it's more for your own records now. But I agree it's cute.


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## juliemule

I have a question on vehicle searches. Do you stay in front of the dog and move along the vehicle until the dog gets odor and stops on his own?


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## elrohwen

juliemule said:


> I have a question on vehicle searches. Do you stay in front of the dog and move along the vehicle until the dog gets odor and stops on his own?


I've been taught to let the dog lead out in front at first, then move along the car to make sure they search the whole thing, typically with a short enough leash so they are encouraged to stay with the car and not skip sections.


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## Laurelin

juliemule said:


> I have a question on vehicle searches. Do you stay in front of the dog and move along the vehicle until the dog gets odor and stops on his own?


Yeah that's pretty much what we do.


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## sassafras

elrohwen said:


> I've been taught to let the dog lead out in front at first, then move along the car to make sure they search the whole thing, typically with a short enough leash so they are encouraged to stay with the car and not skip sections.


This is more how we are being taught. Let the dog out in front but on a relatively short leash with a tiny bit of tension until they start to focus on a particular area, then give them some leash slack so they can work that spot.


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## elrohwen

Last weekend we did more vehicle searches and Watson is getting better at them. Before we did them inside, to minimize distractions (the training center has a big garage door, so the instructor drove her car right in). This time it was outdoors, with two cars next to each other. For the first hide or two all dogs were distracted, but they really got to work when they realized what we were doing. The wind was really gusty, which is already distracting for Watson, and vehicles have never been his strong point, so I was proud of how well he did. He did much better about stick with the car and not trying to run off and search everywhere else.

One search was awful though. She had attached the hide under the wheel well with sticky stuff, and the car was so dirty that it fell off and nobody noticed. So we're over near the hide and Watson keeps sniffing the ground, I assume because of smells from critters or other dogs, so I'm trying to move him on and get him focused on the car. Finally he starts trying to pick something up off the ground and I look closely and realize it's the hide. He knew it was there all along, but I didn't see it. Oops! I didn't give him enough credit for staying on task and ignoring other scents.

Oh, then immediately after I told him how good he was, I stepped on his foot so hard he yelped and jumped back. Not my best day. lol


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## juliemule

What do you do if the dog passes the source?

This is all interesting to me, the similarities and differences in detection work.


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## elrohwen

juliemule said:


> What do you do if the dog passes the source?


Just keep going. If I know that the source is on one particular side of the car, I'll walk up and back on that side. If it's blind, or there are multiples, I'll just walk around the car, coming from different angles so the dog can maybe catch the scent a different way. In my limited experience, it's very common for dogs to pass the source once or more times as they start working the area, then come back to it, and there's no penalty for that.

If it's really hard and the dog is just not getting in, the instructor might move it to an easier spot while the dog isn't looking so that he can be successful.


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## sassafras

elrohwen said:


> Just keep going. If I know that the source is on one particular side of the car, I'll walk up and back on that side. If it's blind, or there are multiples, I'll just walk around the car, coming from different angles so the dog can maybe catch the scent a different way. In my limited experience, it's very common for dogs to pass the source once or more times as they start working the area, then come back to it, and there's no penalty for that.
> 
> If it's really hard and the dog is just not getting in, the instructor might move it to an easier spot while the dog isn't looking so that he can be successful.


Same here. Depending on the wind, etc the dogs sometimes catch the scent on the other side of the vehicle and work it back. If a dog is having a really, really hard time our instructor has us just casually lean on the vehicle on the same side as the hide so they hang around that area a little more, or walk more slowly so they aren't just charging around the vehicle. Once they get the hang of the game, though, they tend to get better at being deliberate rather than just charging around hoping to get lucky.


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## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> Same here. Depending on the wind, etc the dogs sometimes catch the scent on the other side of the vehicle and work it back. If a dog is having a really, really hard time our instructor has us just casually lean on the vehicle on the same side as the hide so they hang around that area a little more, or walk more slowly so they aren't just charging around the vehicle. Once they get the hang of the game, though, they tend to get better at being deliberate rather than just charging around hoping to get lucky.


Deliberate? What is this deliberate you speak of? Haha. Watson and the cocker in our class are good, but so spazzy. The other owner and I are jealous of the dogs who take their time. The spaniels are hilarious to watch though and quick searchers despite their frantic energy. The instructor keeps saying they will get more deliberate, but I've seen springers hunt and they are always nuts.


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## elrohwen

We had two nosework classes this weekend, and one was in a different training facility, which was fun. We did an exterior search on Saturday, where every single dog (including Watson) tried to pee. Oh boys. Sunday was vehicles and one interior off leash search. I was proud of Watson for going to a new place and doing so well. His alert is getting really strong now, and I'm much more comfortable doing blind hides.

Our only issue is his willingness to leave the hides. Any advice on this? On leash he's fine, mostly because I'm within a few feet of him, so he finds the hide, alerts, and I reward immediately. Off leash, I'm further away so he'll get to the hide, alert, and then start to leave it before I can get in there with the reward (even if I'm within 10-15ft). Obviously I could try to stay closer to him, which would help (and which is what works on leash), but I'm not sure how to extend that to greater distances. He's an independent worker and in it for the search more than the reward, so this is our biggest struggle. I hope it's something that solidifies with more time and practice. Initially he would find a hide and be willing to run right off, but now he's at least stopping and alerting before trying to move on, which is awesome.

I might sign up for an ORT in February. It's far away, unfortunately, near Boston, but we have some friends there and may be able to turn it into a little vacation.


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## dagwall

Pretty certain at this point I'm not getting into the trial on the 16th I was wait listed for. The good news is I'm going to a sniff 'n go this Saturday. It's basically a mock trial, you'll go through the motions of a trial but a trainer will be there to help guide you a bit as well. 

Cheaper and really better for us at this point. Jubel still doesn't really have much if any odor obedience. He knows he's looking for birch and if I know where the hides are I can usually notice a bit of recognition from him sometimes but he rarely sticks to it for long. With blind hides I'll often know when he's on odor and looking for the source but usually not clear sign when he's found the source.

Won't be another trial within about 2 hours until March. Hopefully we'll have a pretty solid alert by then. The sniff 'n go should be fun, I'm looking forward to it.


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## elrohwen

Oh no! That's too bad. Though it sounds like you have stuff to work on in the mean time so that's good. I'm sure you guys will be 100% ready to go when the next trial comes up.


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## dagwall

Sniff 'n go this morning. It was fun and yeah... Jubel is not ready for trial yet as expected. It was really windy outside so you'd assume the outdoor searches would be the real challenge. He did the best on the vehicle and exterior search, other than trying to pee on a shrub. I false alerted on the container search and knowingly false alerted on the interior search. I knew he wasn't on odor but he stopped searching and our time was running out, basically a "just show me where please." Probably should have called him back over to the general area I knew he'd smelled something and seen if he'd redirect to pinpoint it. 

All and all a fun day and good experience. I'll be keeping an eye out for more sniff 'n go events and going to my travel classes. We should be good to go by March, I hope. In other news I'm excited to go to a barn hunt in PA on Dec. 8th.


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## kadylady

I have been silently following this thread and thinking about trying this with Luke at some point but we have been focusing our time and money on Rally lately. But, got an offer we couldn't refuse and Luke and I randomly started a Nose Work class last night! My instructor who I have been doing Rally and general obedience stuff with for the past couple years sent me an email Tuesday night and asked if I wanted to attend her Nose Work class free of charge! She recently attended an Andrew Ramsey seminar and this is her first class teaching his methods and she wasn't getting a lot of people signing up so she asked if I wanted to bring one of my dogs. It was a nice surprise for sure, and can't turn down free classes! 

Luke really enjoyed it once he figured out what he was suppose to do. We had just finished our advanced Rally class the week before, same building, same instructor, which I think was part of his initial hesitation to do things on his own. At first he wanted to just knock everything over and paw at everything. He always uses his paws when he's learning something new. But his second time out he was getting the idea.

We started with food paired with the birch scent from the very beginning and by the end of their second turn most of the dogs were searching scent only, using a clicker and food reward at the scent. She was telling us a bit about Andrew Ramsey's methods and how at the end of the 2 day seminar her terrier who had no prior nose work experience at all was giving a solid alert to scent only. After only 2 turns last night Luke was starting to find the odor without a food pair, and boy was he excited to search! It was really interesting watching all the dogs figure it out in their own ways. We had a good mix of breeds represented too. It should be fun, it's just a short 4 week class because of the holidays, but I like being able to get Luke out too (Zoey's agility has left me feeling like I am neglecting him sometimes) and I like trying new things with them.


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## Canyx

Also admitting that I've been stalking this thread. Soro is informally trained on black pepper and we've been doing nosework for a little bit now. I let him free roam the room he is searching, which I know is not how it's done. But he's apparently very good at finding them even when they're hidden high up, behind doors, under couch frames and stuff. 
One of these days I want to train him to sniff out something useful! But until then, this is a good low-key outlet for him and he gets hyper focused when he is sniffing. He loves it!


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## elrohwen

Kadylady, that's awesome! I wish we had started pairing right away, because I think Watson would have caught on very quickly and we would have moved much faster. Maybe for some dogs who are really not into the game, really don't understand it, or are too timid, starting with only food is best.



Canyx said:


> I let him free roam the room he is searching, which I know is not how it's done.


Glad you guys are having fun with it! We actually do off leash searches all the time, and according to my instructor that's how most judges would like to see you do an interior search. We mostly work on leash handling skills because they're so important on vehicles, or for making sure your dog is searching everything in the room, but we do practice off leash too (which Watson likes much better)


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## sassafras

So this last week we just started working with the scent alone. One exercise is just having a couple of finds with no paired food thrown in the mix intermittently and rewarding at the source, and the other exercise was simply having two closed boxes available one containing just food and the other containing just scent. I was really expecting Squash to just tear into the box with food because it's sort of a Squash thing to do, but after a few half-hearted attempts to paw the food box he abandoned it and went straight for the scent box. It was very cool to see. 

Also when we were up north a couple of weeks ago, I had brought along some stuff to do a little nosework, and it was cool to see him play the game there. The very first time we practiced at home, he seemed completely stunned. Like... "this can happen _here_ WTF?" but at the cabin he was cool as a cucumber. "Oh look, birch randomly on my vacation." aheh.


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## KBLover

Using the birch only seems to be going slow - almost like he doesn't get he's supposed to be looking for the birch. He's hunting and searching, but he's looking for some kind of food. 

I also think it doesn't seem to be strong enough I guess? If I open the whole jar and put it somewhere, he's at least drawn to it, but just a few in the scent box and nope. Seems to be the case with some foods too. Using oatmeal cookie bits didn't work as well as one of his training treats. As you might imagine, using a hard-boiled egg has him finding it even at places he can't reach. 

Sometimes I've seen him sniff right past it - I mean he's sniffing hard, nose passes by the bit of food or whatever, and somehow he misses it? Guess that's where the expression "it was right under your nose" comes from. 

He's enjoying it and will eventually find whatever, but I just wish I could help him be even better at it, even if we aren't going to be competing in the sport in all likelihood. 

One thing that did work well is I put a box outside and hid it in some thin weeds and under some leaves so it wasn't obvious by sight - and he found it without an issue. Thought that was pretty fascinating. Thought it would be pretty hard, but turns it out it was pretty simple. Maybe I should try the birch out there.


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## elrohwen

A couple things. Use 3 qtips in your container. Set the scent and leave it for 15-60 min so it can "age" and that should make it easier for him. The main thing I would do is pair food with birch for now. Put a treat right on top of the scent so he can self-reward when he finds it, then you can swoop in with more rewards. When you reward, do it so his nose is right into the odor. 

Hopefully that helps a little! When we moved to just odor it wasn't unusual to have to return to pairing with food a couple times if the dogs were distracted or it was harder. We'd pair, then do the next hide with only odor and see if they were better.


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## Canyx

Just curious... Why do they teach nosework by pairing the scent with the food instead of doing something like... Dog goes to scent to investigate, mark and reward with food from owner? Still plenty of positive association with finding the scent. I don't see a problem with either method but I if the food and scent are paired then the dog needs to be taught to distinguish them later on.


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## sassafras

Canyx said:


> Just curious... Why do they teach nosework by pairing the scent with the food instead of doing something like... Dog goes to scent to investigate, mark and reward with food from owner? Still plenty of positive association with finding the scent. I don't see a problem with either method but I if the food and scent are paired then the dog needs to be taught to distinguish them later on.


How our instructor explains it is that being rewarded right at the scent and keeping people out of it completely at first helps teach the dog to stay with the scent, otherwise they have a tendency to sort of get in the area of the find and then look to people for the reward. 

The dogs in our class consistently have not had any trouble transitioning to scent without a paired food treat at all, although we're just starting with it. When we do reward at the scent, we're meant to swoop in and literally give the food right AT the find so the dog continues to be rewarded for staying there. And sometimes the instructor rewards instead of we owners so the dogs don't get too used to the reward coming from any particular person - the one constant is that the reward comes at the find. 

Some of the dogs are starting to show some early "alerts" like staring at the find, laying down, etc although we aren't actively trying to train those. It's just an effect for some dogs of learning to stay with the find. It's really cool to see.


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## elrohwen

Sass explained it well. The idea is that the dog gets rewarded immediately upon finding the scent, and they are rewarded right there, not just nearby, so they go right to the source. You can definitely teach without pairing, but that's kind of the K9 nosework standard method. We did have dogs who needed the pairing a few times before they really got it, and we had dogs who seemed to get it, but had to go back to pairing once or twice. They don't have to discriminate against food until the second level.


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## dagwall

I really like the newer methods they are starting to use for early nosework like Sass and Kadylady have described. I think Jubel would have done better with a start like that. Pretty sure we were on food for way too long. He knows to look for birch but I think he's still looking to see if he can find any food hides first. 

In my last travel class they had set up some container searches with food decoys for the higher level people in the class. We did the searches too for fun and to see the difference between Jubel's reaction to the birch/anise/clove hides and the food hides. Mostly with the idea to jump in and reward right away for ANY interest in the odor hides and see how long he'd stick with the food hides. He couldn't access the food, just smell it. He pawed at them a bit but when he quickly realized he couldn't get to the food and I wasn't rewarding him he moved on and kept searching.


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## Sibe

I'm still trying to catch up here, watched some videos from the fist few pages and I love how into it the dogs are! Where is a good place to start, is there a good basics guide someone can point me toward? I'd love to take a class with my girls.

I've been doing food puzzles for a little while now like the Hol-ee roller game, and all kinds of muffin tin games.











For the cats, they're still working on figuring it out. Foster dog Higgins loved it too, shoving the tubes out of the way.


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## dagwall

Just keep reading through the thread Sibe. We've got some starter information posted when KBLover got interested in trying nosework with Wally.


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## Finkie_Mom

Totally new to this, and I haven't read the whole thread, just skimmed here and there. I have started a bit of nosework with Kimma and Jari. I'm going about things a BIT differently I think than most, but that's also because I don't plan on trialing and also the person helping me trains drug dogs LOL. So bear with me....

For now, I've got Kimma and Jari both finding a specific toy. I have the birch scent in with that toy now (a cotton towel) sitting in a sealed container so that the towel will pick up the scent. Drive building will be by tugging with the scented towel, and the reward will also be tugging. I will then continue to hide the towel WITH scent on it, making the piece I'm hiding smaller and smaller but rewarding with another whole towel thrown at/as close to source as possible. Then pair the piece of towel with the birch in a tin and fade out the towel altogether. I think that makes sense? This is Kimma and Jari each searching for their toy (Kimma has a bark alert and Jari has a sit though in this clip he is able to get the toy out of the drawer so no alert there LOL):


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## elrohwen

Loved the videos! Your dogs are just gorgeous.

From what I understand, most people training working search dogs do use toys. I think toys have their benefits over food (especially since you want a dog to eventually ignore food). Food is just so much easier to get most dogs started on though which is why K9 nosework standard training uses food. 

Watson plays with toys, but I don't think a tug would work as a reward for searching, because hunting itself is his most powerful drive. To get him to actually stop searching and alert to something, food is useful. I do think we could have trained the whole thing in much less time if we had a private instructor and our own program. I find the K9 nosework methods to be pretty slow for certain dogs, but again, they do tend to work for almost all dogs in the end which is the goal. 

I love seeing the ways different people train searching and alerts, since I'm so new to this type of training. Keep us updated on the finkies!


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## Finkie_Mom

elrohwen said:


> Loved the videos! Your dogs are just gorgeous.
> 
> From what I understand, most people training working search dogs do use toys. I think toys have their benefits over food (especially since you want a dog to eventually ignore food). Food is just so much easier to get most dogs started on though which is why K9 nosework standard training uses food.
> 
> Watson plays with toys, but I don't think a tug would work as a reward for searching, because hunting itself is his most powerful drive. To get him to actually stop searching and alert to something, food is useful. I do think we could have trained the whole thing in much less time if we had a private instructor and our own program. I find the K9 nosework methods to be pretty slow for certain dogs, but again, they do tend to work for almost all dogs in the end which is the goal.
> 
> I love seeing the ways different people train searching and alerts, since I'm so new to this type of training. Keep us updated on the finkies!


Yeah, all the dogs at work use toys. I actually TAUGHT Kimma to like toys by having her search for them. She legitimately did not even care about tug before I started this with her. But she already had been instilled with a lot of value for retrieving things, so that kind of helped as well. 

I tried Jari with the birch towel at work today in a room he had never been in, and he was actually pretty good on the first low hide (under a cardboard box turned upside down). He didn't really indicate, but rather just kept trying to get to the toy, but that was OK. I rewarded that and did some much easier hides that he could get to and self-reward. I'm hoping that by next week maybe he will be more willing to offer the bark alert in that type of environment. 

I would have never even started with this type of thing if it weren't for where I work, TBH. I never knew how much fun this can be for dogs, and of course as an added benefit, how much mental stimulation it really provides!


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## elrohwen

Entered our ORT! I actually entered two, in case I don't get into the first one. One is January 5th and the other is the 25th, both about 1.5 hours away from me (NJ and PA). Very excited!

Our first trial will probably be April when there is a trial right in my town.

For those who have done their ORT, how does it work? Do you show up for the whole day? Do they give you a time slot? Did you do anything to prepare once you arrived?

Our nosework classes start up again on Jan 4th, so hopefully we can do a mock-ORT in preparation.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Entered our ORT! I actually entered two, in case I don't get into the first one. One is January 5th and the other is the 25th, both about 1.5 hours away from me (NJ and PA). Very excited!
> 
> Our first trial will probably be April when there is a trial right in my town.
> 
> For those who have done their ORT, how does it work? Do you show up for the whole day? Do they give you a time slot? Did you do anything to prepare once you arrived?
> 
> Our nosework classes start up again on Jan 4th, so hopefully we can do a mock-ORT in preparation.


Pretty sure I put a summary of my ORT here (or on the thread in the other forum) back when I did ours at the end of August. 

We got a time to show up for registration and included the run order. Might depend on the host club on when you get the run order. You only need to stay until your run is completed. Likely depends on the host club on how smoothly/quickly they make it though the dogs. Mine went quickly and smoothly.

Good luck to you and Watson. I sign up for our next chance at a NW1 trial next week, hopefully we make it in this time.


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## Finkie_Mom

OK so I've gotten Jari searching for the birch in a tin. YAY! So excited! I'm clicking the bark alert, but you can't really hear it that well on this video - he was starting to look at me for the reward so I'm focusing now on getting him to continue looking at source right up until I throw him his towel. He was up to about 10 barks prior to this, but since I upped the criteria (no more towel hidden with the tin), I figured a bark or two would be sufficient.


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## Laurelin

We've been renting out places to get our training group some practice time. I've missed the last few but we have another on the 12th. It's interesting, we're starting to put some dummies out for the dog and also searching areas where there is no hide to see what they do. 

My instructor still doesn't like Mia's pawing at the object if I know where it is. She says it's a more targeting behavior vs her actually finding the odor. I did explain that the times I've had other people hide it's been soooo helpful to me when she does that so she suggested that when I know where it is, to reward right away but the pawing is ok when I don't know where it is. Seems to me Mia wouldn't know the difference so Im concerned that might confuse her. 

I'm not sure what my plan will be. So far Mia's only false alerted twice and it was on other scents and did not false alert when we had her search the empty area.


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## elrohwen

Just got my confirmation email for the ORT this Sunday! They seem a bit unorganized (the premium list only came out a couple weeks ago), but I'm glad we got signed up. I'm also confirmed for one on the 25th, in case we don't pass. We have a nosework class this Saturday, so that should help get Watson prepared since we haven't worked on nosework lately. 



Laurelin, I don't really understand your trainer's concerns either. Mia doesn't (and shouldn't) know if a hide is blind to you or not, and they're all blind to her, so why would it matter? I can see the downsides of trained alerts in general, but it doesn't seem like they have been issues for Mia. The biggest problem, to me, would be false alerting in an empty room because the dog thinks you want them to alert to something, anything, but you said she did well in that situation. Honestly, I would love to train a formal alert with Watson and I think he would do well with it (he's not handler focused at all during nosework, so I doubt he'd false alert just to please me), but I'm just going with the flow for now since his eye contact alert is fairly strong.


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## elrohwen

We passed the ORT! 14 seconds. I'm really excited for the trial in April (especially since it's in my town, within 3 or 4 miles). There are also element specific trials in May at the place I did my ORT if we miss some and need another shot.


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## dagwall

Congrats! The next trial I can sign up for in March opens for entries in a few days. It has NW1 on Friday and Sunday, NW2 on Saturday. Works out nice that way, my friend is getting married on that Saturday. I'd have to choose her wedding over a nosework trial so happy that I don't have to choose. Not a lot of oppertunities for trials within 2 hours of me, would suck to miss one. 

Fingers crossed we both get into our respective trials, I was wait listed for the last one in my area.


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## elrohwen

Dagwall, good luck getting into the next trial! I'm really really hoping we get into the one in April, because it's actually in my town, and there aren't a lot in this area in general. Seems like everyone listed is in CA, OR, or WA. Haha.


I have a titling question for anyone who understands it better than me. Someone told me that you don't need to pass all elements in a particular trial, but you can get credit. So say you fail the exterior search in one trial, and the interior in the next trial, you've still passed all four elements at some point so you've earned your title. But when I read the official rules and what's on the site, it seems like you need to get all elements on the same day to title (though it's not explicitly clear on this either). Does anyone know for sure? I'm going to ask my nosework instructor, but wanted to see if anyone else understood.

It also sounds like they're going to have new titles or something for elements. The place I did my ORT is hosting an element specific trial in May that I'll sign up for. The official site seems unsure whether this will factor into regular titles or become new titles or what, but it's an interesting idea.


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## elrohwen

Also, I ordered some more tins for nosework practice today and decided to get anise and clove as well. My instructor seems to think that we'll need to really train any new scents (that's been her experience) but others have told me that their dogs alerted on it despite never smelling it before (Dagwall, I think you mentioned this?). There are a bunch of ORTs in my area this spring, and my regular training facility is going to figure out how to have one, so I'd like to get those out of the way.


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## dagwall

I don't believe you have to pass all elements in the same trial to title. Just eventually pass all four at trials to get your title. I think the elements trials are still undecided on how they will work. Separate titles for element events, able to use to complete a title missing a certain element, or just fun practice in a trial environment. Last I read about it wasn't decided for sure.

From my experience with Jubel and my instructors experience with the dogs they train learning a new odor is pretty easy. I've don't nothing specifically to train on clove or anise other than attend my travel classes where the instructor places paired hides in some cases of birch and clove or birch and anise. Sometimes clove or anise alone. Nothing more extensive than that and Jubel would very likely pass a clove/anise ORT I believe. 

I haven't looked into it at all but CAN you take an ORT for clove and anise before you title in NW1? I really have no idea but in my head kinda assumed you'd have to wait until you got your NW1 title.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I don't believe you have to pass all elements in the same trial to title. Just eventually pass all four at trials to get your title. I think the elements trials are still undecided on how they will work. Separate titles for element events, able to use to complete a title missing a certain element, or just fun practice in a trial environment. Last I read about it wasn't decided for sure.


Yeah, this is what I had heard, but the rulebook seemed to imply that you had to get them all in one trial without actually coming out and saying it one way or another. And the rule book is pretty clear that they haven't decided what to do about element trials, but that they were going to decide soon. I hope they're an opportunity to title in some way (either for the regular title or a new title).



> I haven't looked into it at all but CAN you take an ORT for clove and anise before you title in NW1? I really have no idea but in my head kinda assumed you'd have to wait until you got your NW1 title.


I know for sure that you can get an ORT for any scent at any time. There were people at my ORT going for all 3, and others discussing why they did or didn't do it that way (mostly weather, and not wanting to pay for all 3 and not being able to make it). I'm pretty sure Watson will have a very easy time learning anise and clove, so now I'm kicking myself that I didn't prepare in time for this one, but we'll definitely go back for those two as soon as there's another ORT nearby just to get them done.


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## dagwall

Jubel was awesome at his travel class this morning. I think mostly due to the first excercise my instructor set up for us. Seemed to finally make truly 'alerting' to click with Jubel, we'll see if it stuck in tomorrow's class I hope. She basically set up a shell game of 6-7 tins in a line going up a poll. One of the tins would have odor in it and all the rest were blanks. Repeat about four times moving the odor tins location, swapping between birch, anise, and clove. He did great and really alerted to the specific tin then moving on to normal hides he continued alerting instead of his normal stopping for a split second at odor then charging off to find the next hide.

I've been lazy and forgetful about actually buying some tins to practice at home with. Need to get on that. I think more of the shell game type practices will be great for Jubel. Fingers crossed he keeps it up and alerts well tomorrow.


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## Laurelin

We've been doing travel classes too most saturdays (not this week though because the trainer is at an agility trial). It's going well but we're struggling with the taller hides. Hides on the ground up to where my dogs can reach on their back legs are fantastic but above that we're needing some work. 

There's an ORT coming soon that I plan to enter both in. It's in state, yay! My classmate drove over 6 hours to one in Texas but one of her dogs failed. I know if I went that far out, we'd have that happen and I'd kick myself lol.


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## dagwall

I try and make one travel class a week. Until our first trial in March I'm going to try and make two a week. Much easier when they have classes both Saturday and Sunday. The weekday classes are a hassle to make it to on top of being in the dark and cold after a long drive in traffic.

I'm also planning on signing up for the next local ORT for anise and clove so we can be ready for the next NW2 trial if we manage to get our NW1 title at the March trial.

Finally placed an order for nosework supplies: tins, magnets, earthquake putty, birch/clove/anise odor vials all for almost as much as I just paid for the NW1 entry fee.

Good luck getting into and passing the ORT with Mia and Summer. I'm sure they'll do great based on what you've said about them. ORTs are made to be easy. Very strong odor with very minimal distractions in the test area.


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## elrohwen

I have a bit of a Nosework issue. There is a trial coming up in April that's actually in my town - like <10min from my house. I was definitely planning to enter until this past weekend, when someone asked our instructor about it and she said we wouldn't be ready.

I don't want to enter if my instructor tells me I shouldn't, but I also think we could be ready. Are we 100% ready to go out there and kill it? Maybe not. Does Watson have at least a 50/50 chance of doing really well? Absolutely. I think he could rock it, but then I've never done a nosework trial so maybe I'm overestimating our abilities. It's a lot of money and a long day, but it's also 10min from my house. There aren't many trials in my part of the country at all, and if we miss this one our next chance will likely be a 3 hour drive where we might still fail. We might even have to wait another year for the same trial to come up again.

Thoughts? What would you do? I have no doubt that Watson can find and alert to a single birch hide in any location. I'm worried about peeing outside, which we can work on. It's a long day, but this dog loves to sniff, it's all he does, and he has a ton of work ethic for nosework. Even if he doesn't pass all elements with flying colors, to me it seems like a good test of where we're at and it's so close to my house. For reference, we've been training in nosework since last May, so I don't think we're hugely rushing this first trial thing.


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## dagwall

As long as you don't view it as a waste of money knowing there is a decent risk he won't pass all elements I'd say go for it. It'll be a great learning experience and with the right attitude a fun day with your dog. Jubel and I are in our first trial in early March and I have no clue if we'll actually title. I'm hopeful and will be working hard to get ready so we do our best but I'm going into it knowing we might not title this time. I'll be driving about 1.5 hours for this trial which isn't that bad compared to most of the other trials the people I train with sign up for. 

As long as you have a positive, learning experience attitude towards the trial I don't see what harm could come from trying.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> As long as you don't view it as a waste of money knowing there is a decent risk he won't pass all elements I'd say go for it. It'll be a great learning experience and with the right attitude a fun day with your dog. Jubel and I are in our first trial in early March and I have no clue if we'll actually title. I'm hopeful and will be working hard to get ready so we do our best but I'm going into it knowing we might not title this time. I'll be driving about 1.5 hours for this trial which isn't that bad compared to most of the other trials the people I train with sign up for.
> 
> As long as you have a positive, learning experience attitude towards the trial I don't see what harm could come from trying.


Thanks for validating how I was feeling about it.  I feel bad going against what my instructor thinks, so I wanted to make sure I was being reasonable first.

I can totally see how entering certain sports before you are ready can set your dog back. I don't really see that risk in nosework though to the same extent. You can reward as you would in training, and if you're wrong they show you where it is so your dog can be right. To me it seems like a win-win except for spending the money (which isn't that big of a deal). I'm going to approach it as a training opportunity to see where we are.

Our instructor wanted us to volunteer and learn that way, vs entering, but I think at this point I'll learn much more from my own dog than from watching others in NW1. Watching others in NW2 or 3 would be nice, but I want to see where my dog is more. 

I also feel like our instructor takes things a bit slow at times. Some of the dogs in my class struggle more than others, but Watson is naturally skilled and I want to push him a bit and see where he is.


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## Laurelin

Did you do the ORT yet? Don't you have to pass that before you can trial? We are going for our ORTs in May. My classmate from Mia's class just passed his ORT and got his NW1. I wish I could've but travelling 6 hours to a trial for nosework was a no go when I knew this ORT was coming up here in May.

We've been working nosework on our walks as much as possible. the girls are getting really really good at it.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Did you do the ORT yet? Don't you have to pass that before you can trial? We are going for our ORTs in May. My classmate from Mia's class just passed his ORT and got his NW1. I wish I could've but travelling 6 hours to a trial for nosework was a no go when I knew this ORT was coming up here in May.
> 
> We've been working nosework on our walks as much as possible. the girls are getting really really good at it.


Yep, passed the birch ORT last month with no issues.


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## Laurelin

Awesome! I missed that!


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Awesome! I missed that!


Thanks! 

I got some anise and clove stuff right after we did the ORT and now I wish we had signed up for all three just to get them out of the way. There is another ORT coming up in March, but we have a big conformation show the same weekend. We won't be ready to trial in NW2 any time soon though, but I think we are about there for NW1.


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## Laurelin

There's no trials near us still. That 7 hours to Texas will probably be the closest for the next year so maybe I should've gone. Oh well. Hopefully we pass the ORT in May then twiddle our thumbs.

anyone looked into UKCs nosework program? 

I'm planning on starting anise and clove after the ORT. How quickly did that go for Watson?


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> There's no trials near us still. That 7 hours to Texas will probably be the closest for the next year so maybe I should've gone. Oh well. Hopefully we pass the ORT in May then twiddle our thumbs.


Hopefully more stuff starts up your way! It's frustrating when there are a ton of Washington and Oregon trials, but hardly any in the rest of the country. I'm glad there are at least a couple around here, even if they are ~3 hours.



> anyone looked into UKCs nosework program?


I hadn't even heard of it until last weekend. We train nosework with a woman who owns Catahoulas and does a lot of UKC stuff, so I should ask her if we have a lot of shows around here and if she's heard about the nosework program.



> I'm planning on starting anise and clove after the ORT. How quickly did that go for Watson?


It was pretty much instantaneous. I just threw out some hides along with birch (not in the same container and not near each other) and waited to see what he did. Probably not the "right" training method. lol If he ignored them, or sniffed but didn't alert, I was going to try pairing or something, but he alerted that first day and has been fine ever since. He treats them just like they're birch. 

Our instructor said that we would only slowly introduce the other scents, and it was a lot of work, but I really didn't find that to be true. I don't know if all dogs generalize it so quickly, maybe some don't and that's her experience, but Watson immediately got the idea. I remember Dagwall saying that Jubel also caught on quickly to other scents.

ETA: I'll add that he's not as strong on anise and clove as he is on birch, and I'm not confident he would alert in a random situation outside of our house, but he could definitely pass an ORT.


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## dagwall

Honestly the instructors in my travel classes don't treat introducing anise and clove as even remotely a big deal. We have dog/handler pairs of all levels in the same travel classes and by default have a number of paired hides (birch/clove, birch/anise, and sometimes anise/clove) occasionally a few hides of just clove or anise. None of the dogs I've seen or been told about have any issues learning the new odor is part of the game as well. 

Elrohwen, sounds like your instructor started much faster than mine did but has come to a grinding halt where mine started to pick up the pace. With the way our travel classes are set up we end up doing a lot of NW2 and NW3 type hides instead of sticking to the "easy" NW1 hides for everyone without a NW1 title. I think the biggest difference is how often us "novice" dog/handlers do blind searches vs the more experienced dog/handler pairs. I haven't done a lot of it but we've even practiced a few times with food distractions as you will have those at higher levels. Interesting and good to notice the different sniffing behaviors for odor and food. For Jubel he takes it even further and will make a few attempts to get to the food inside the container which he's never done for odor. Though he has eaten the odor q-tips a few times so he isn't above it haha.

There is one dog/handler pair at the NW3 level that is just so impressive to watch them work. At that level you have to clear all areas of the search area being told there are up to X number of hides. There could be X number or there might be 1-3 less than X. The team has to cover the entire search area, find the hides, and declare the area finished when there are no more hides to find. This dog is just awesome to watch work. I sign up for classes that are less convenient for us sometimes just to be in the same class with them and see him work.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Elrohwen, sounds like your instructor started much faster than mine did but has come to a grinding halt where mine started to pick up the pace. With the way our travel classes are set up we end up doing a lot of NW2 and NW3 type hides instead of sticking to the "easy" NW1 hides for everyone without a NW1 title. I think the biggest difference is how often us "novice" dog/handlers do blind searches vs the more experienced dog/handler pairs. I haven't done a lot of it but we've even practiced a few times with food distractions as you will have those at higher levels. Interesting and good to notice the different sniffing behaviors for odor and food. For Jubel he takes it even further and will make a few attempts to get to the food inside the container which he's never done for odor. Though he has eaten the odor q-tips a few times so he isn't above it haha.


The funny thing is that our instructor sets up hides that are generally harder than you would see at NW1, but then says we're not ready to trial. This weekend we had 4 hides in a small-ish room, not aged, and mostly blind (at least for the first person, and when I went I knew the general location but not specifics). One hide that's been aged for an hour should be easy. We haven't done much with inaccessable hides though (only easy ones that are sort of accessible). 

Some of the dogs in our class definitely have less drive, and I think they would struggle with an all day trial and keeping their focus, but I don't see that being an issue with Watson at all. I definitely see two types of dogs - those where the search is a trained behavior, and those where it's natural. Watson and the cocker are naturals. With very little training they knew what to do and were excited to do it. The other dogs like it, and consistently get better, but sometimes you can tell that they get frustrated more easily, or take a while to start working at the beginning of a class. They are also the dogs who false alert, because they want to test out if sitting or lying down will get a reward. Watson might look at me if he's confused, but never as a false alert just to get a treat. I think our instructor wants to take her time and build their foundations slowly, and I think that's great for some of the dogs, but for Watson and the cocker I wish we could move faster and push them a bit.

We haven't done food distractions on purpose, but it's happened a few times. Once there was a plastic grocery bag filled with food/treats and we didn't realize it. Watson definitely sniffed it, but I realized it wasn't odor and told him to move on and he did. At least one of the other dogs did the same. One of the dogs started pawing the bag and that's when we realized it was food and moved it out of the search area. So I think they're ready to add in a food distraction and really test their knowledge of the work, but our instructor hasn't even brought that up.


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## dagwall

Yeah my instructors make a good effort to individualize as much as possible. Their feedback is specific to your dog as they have seen them grow and develop in the sport, they tailor some hides based on the people who will be in that class. Sometimes set up additional hides for a specific dog but let everyone else take part if they want to as well. Just because some people aren't ready to more advanced hides doesn't keep them from setting them up for others who are.

I'm basically working with my instructor from the foundations classes and the instructor who taught her. He has a much different teaching style than she does and approaches a number of things differently. I find it very helpful to go to classes taught by both of them. Due to scheduling I usually end up in more of her classes than his but I went to one of his yesterday and it was really good to get his feedback. There are two other instructors but one sets up classes that are just too much of a pain to get to and the other is taking a little break for real life reasons. I've taken 1-2 classes with each of them and they were good but I like the two I see the most the best and they compliment each others teaching styles well. 

Because Jubel, and one other dog from yesterdays class, seems to be focusing more on the ground under elevated hides where treat bits from previous handlers may have fallen checking for scraps he's come up with a plan for the next class with him. We will go last in the group and he'll pair our elevated hides with food so they get the instant high value reward for lifting their heads to search for the odor instead of first looking for scraps. It's not that they don't realize the odor is up there, they do always end up looking up and finding it but first they look for any dropped treats to pick up before pin pointing the odor. They've both been rewarded with missed treats enough that it's worth it to them to look for the food first then get their reward for finding the odor. Hopefully the double reward at source will reduce the scavenging behavior. Time will tell.


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## elrohwen

I'm considering a Fenzi Academy course for more advanced nosework concepts, just to get a different perspective and some new ideas to try. I see why you wouldn't want to overface a dog and cause frustration, but I think they need new challenges too in order to grow. 

I've done a few above the head finds with Watson and he struggles with looking up. He knows it's there, but he doesn't alert since he's not on source, then he just wanders off to another find. He's like to look up if there are shelves or other horizontal surfaces, but anything on a vertical surface is confusing for him. We really haven't done any of those in class, so that's something I'm trying on my own.

The only inaccessable hides we've done have been out of the way and hard to get at, but the dog could get to them if they tried (except the cocker, he's at a height disadvantage sometimes).


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## Laurelin

We've struggled with hides off the ground a bit. Apparently in trials they don't want dogs climbing much on things (safety hazard). At home I'd been doing all elevated hides in spots my dogs could get to if they climbed. Then again I don't mind dogs all over the tables.

Our travel class hasn't had many blind hides but I want more of those so I've been doing them on my own. It's hard. I typically just close my eyes and throw the tin then let the dogs show me where it is. Hardly scientific though.


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## Laurelin

I did no know there was a Fenzi academy course..... Hmmmm


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> We've struggled with hides off the ground a bit. Apparently in trials they don't want dogs climbing much on things (safety hazard). At home I'd been doing all elevated hides in spots my dogs could get to if they climbed. Then again I don't mind dogs all over the tables.
> 
> Our travel class hasn't had many blind hides but I want more of those so I've been doing them on my own. It's hard. I typically just close my eyes and throw the tin then let the dogs show me where it is. Hardly scientific though.


I've been making my husband do blind hides for me lately - before I was hiding them myself, but we're ready for blind hides now. He's pretty creative with them too, and I rarely see them. One time he forgot which chair it was under though, and told me I was wrong when I wasn't. Poor Watson - I kept telling him to find it, and he was probably thinking "Is this lady stupid? I told her it was under the first chair." lol



Laurelin said:


> I did no know there was a Fenzi academy course..... Hmmmm


She has quite a few levels of nosework from intro on up. I'm mostly interested in this one: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/45
Though it's going on now and I'm doing gold level in an obedience course, so I don't have time/money to sign up for it. Hopefully it will come around again later in the year.

This one also sounds good and is coming up: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/44


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## Laurelin

I've had my sister hide a few of them but she is MEAN and makes them almost impossible. 

I'm definitely going to try to do one of the Fenzi nosework classes. I had no idea she did them!


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## dagwall

You two are making me even more grateful for my instructors. We work on everything really. Elevated, inaccessible, multiple hides, multiple odors, food distractions, etc. We can always go blind if we want to, just means we don't get to watch those who search before us. If you want to go blind they usually let you search first so then you can watch others if you want.


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## Laurelin

Just signed up for Fenzi's NW220. We don't have our NW1 yet but it's just for lack of availability. Huzzah.


We do multiple hides and inaccessible (although that's a lot for my dogs, haha), starting distractions, etc. I'm asking for a blind each time though since I'm running multiple dogs the second go is never blind. We haven't been in class since this summer though and are just now back to group travel practices around 2x a month.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Just signed up for Fenzi's NW220. We don't have our NW1 yet but it's just for lack of availability. Huzzah.


Yay! Let me know what you think of it. Even though it's a bit advanced for us, I think we would fit in well in that class. I'm less inclined to pay for a class that's working the same level I am every week with an instructor.

I have a working spot in a heeling class this term, so I need to get to work! I think I'm going to take two classes next term, though only at the silver or bronze level.


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## dagwall

I have 3-4 class options each week and normally try and go to one each weekend. Leading up to my first trial I'm going to each weekend class offered. Last week that was two, this week it was one. I'll be out of town next weekend so I might try and make it out to one of the weekday classes. That will probably depend on the weather, being out in the dark after driving through crappy traffic is one thing. Adding in cold crappy weather is insult to injury.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I have 3-4 class options each week and normally try and go to one each weekend. Leading up to my first trial I'm going to each weekend class offered. Last week that was two, this week it was one. I'll be out of town next weekend so I might try and make it out to one of the weekday classes. That will probably depend on the weather, being out in the dark after driving through crappy traffic is one thing. Adding in cold crappy weather is insult to injury.


Wow, you're lucky to have so many options! We only have the one class within an hour of us. The instructor is out of CT and makes the drive to our facility every week, and we can do make up classes at her place in CT, but there aren't really other instructors that I know if. It's weird that a trial is held in my town, considering nobody else teaches it in my town.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Yay! Let me know what you think of it. Even though it's a bit advanced for us, I think we would fit in well in that class. I'm less inclined to pay for a class that's working the same level I am every week with an instructor.
> 
> I have a working spot in a heeling class this term, so I need to get to work! I think I'm going to take two classes next term, though only at the silver or bronze level.


I just got bronze level since we're technically behind but it looks good so far. I'm realizing I've trained Mia to stick too well to hides for the multiple hides. Great for NW1 but not good long term. 

I also found a great class for Mia in april.... will ask about that in another thread.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> I'm realizing I've trained Mia to stick too well to hides for the multiple hides. Great for NW1 but not good long term.


What do you mean by this?

Sticking with hides is something we're working on. If I'm too far away, Watson will back up as he alerts in order to get closer to me. My instructor really doesn't like it. Personally, he's sticking his nose right on the hide and then alerting, and holding his alert, so I'm not too fussed. It's not like he alerts quickly and then runs on. He alerts and waits for a reward or release, he just sometimes moves away from the hide as he's alerting.


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> What do you mean by this?
> 
> Sticking with hides is something we're working on. If I'm too far away, Watson will back up as he alerts in order to get closer to me. My instructor really doesn't like it. Personally, he's sticking his nose right on the hide and then alerting, and holding his alert, so I'm not too fussed. It's not like he alerts quickly and then runs on. He alerts and waits for a reward or release, he just sometimes moves away from the hide as he's alerting.


In NW2 and NW3 there will be multiple hides so the dog has to leave and search out a second or possibly third. NW3 has 0-3 hides (handler doesn't know the number) for each. Mia sticks like glue and wants to go back and pick up and play with the first hide she finds. I typically at home pick them up but we need to work on moving on while the hide is still there.

Oh have y'all heard about the new element trials? Then you can title in one element at a time? You still need all 4 successful finds for the NW1 title but there will be exterior titles, vehicle, etc. I thought that was cool. At least then you don't automatically fail or pass if you botch one thing.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> In NW2 and NW3 there will be multiple hides so the dog has to leave and search out a second or possibly third. NW3 has 0-3 hides (handler doesn't know the number) for each. Mia sticks like glue and wants to go back and pick up and play with the first hide she finds. I typically at home pick them up but we need to work on moving on while the hide is still there.


Ahh, that's what I figured you meant, but wasn't sure. Somehow Watson completely skipped over that issue. Some of the other dogs in our class will go back to previous hides if they get frustrated, or just because they want to, but he doesn't at all anymore. My husband is amazed that we can do 8 hides in the basement and Watson will never alert to the same one twice. Not sure how I taught him that. lol I pretty much just stopped rewarding for re-alerting all together and he figured it out.


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## dagwall

The group I work with, mostly Heidi and Jacy.

Before meeting Jacy it was a bit intimidating knowing he was ex-military and wondering what his approach to training would be. He's awesome! All about being positive, having fun with your dog and bonding through work. He does seminars and workshops for trainers mostly to help expand and grow the sport in the area. To some extent as he trains more instructors a number of them join our travel classes group and set up their own classes giving us more options. So potentially we'll continue to grow even more.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> What do you mean by this?
> 
> Sticking with hides is something we're working on. If I'm too far away, Watson will back up as he alerts in order to get closer to me. My instructor really doesn't like it. Personally, he's sticking his nose right on the hide and then alerting, and holding his alert, so I'm not too fussed. It's not like he alerts quickly and then runs on. He alerts and waits for a reward or release, he just sometimes moves away from the hide as he's alerting.


The backing up could cause problems if you don't see exactly where he altered to unless you can get him to show you again to pinpoint the hide. If the judge didn't see or doesn't believe you actually saw your dog indicate a specific stop and you call alert they will ask you where. You'll have to be able to tell them where and can't ask the dog to show you again after you call alert. It's all at the judges discretion. 

If you can get him to pinpoint the hide again when asked then it probably isn't an issue. Just be aware judges can be particular about it, even more so at higher levels.


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## Laurelin

dagwall said:


> The backing up could cause problems if you don't see exactly where he altered to unless you can get him to show you again to pinpoint the hide. If the judge didn't see or doesn't believe you actually saw your dog indicate a specific stop and you call alert they will ask you where. You'll have to be able to tell them where and can't ask the dog to show you again after you call alert. It's all at the judges discretion.


From what I've heard answering as generally as possible sometimes works and sometimes they tell you to be more specific.

Mia's taken to trying to pick up the hide lately. I'm trying to figure out a way to hide the odor in something other than a tin or plastic tube so she can't try to bite it. We've worked hard on picking up objects so she's just like... yay I found it let me give it to you! She does NOT want to leave a hide though. Ugh. I didn't realize that you'd need to find more than one when I trained her alert. On a leash she is better though than off leash.

Summer's alert is getting much clearer when she's not overly excited. At search and goes she is overly excited though and blazes past if I don't get there right away.


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## dagwall

I need to start working more on a 10' leash instead of my 6'. When I get down so I can see where Jubel is searching and if he's trying to indicate I'm usually too close so he'll look at me hoping to get a treat. He did that twice yesterday on hides under picnic tables. When I don't reward he does go back to searching but it would be best to avoid the interruption.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> The backing up could cause problems if you don't see exactly where he altered to unless you can get him to show you again to pinpoint the hide. If the judge didn't see or doesn't believe you actually saw your dog indicate a specific stop and you call alert they will ask you where. You'll have to be able to tell them where and can't ask the dog to show you again after you call alert. It's all at the judges discretion.
> 
> If you can get him to pinpoint the hide again when asked then it probably isn't an issue. Just be aware judges can be particular about it, even more so at higher levels.


Yeah, that's my concern too. Though it's not really any worse than a dog who touches the source and then lies down. The dog is still not right on top of the source and you need to be close enough to have seen the original nose touch. He only backs up 1-2ft, and only if I'm >20ft away (so only during off leash stuff), so I'm not sure why my instructor thinks it's so bad. It's not like he's coming back to me or anything. He backs up a couple steps before turning to look at me, and then holds eye contact. I have been working on a "show me" cue so he will point it out again if I missed it. If I'm close enough to see the nose touch before he turns to look at me, we're pretty accurate.

ETA: I think the reason he backs up is because he wants to make eye contact and knows I'm far away, so he is kind of looking around for me. I try to stay close to him so he doesn't get a chance to do that, and most of our searches in class are on lead so I'm <10ft from him.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> From what I've heard answering as generally as possible sometimes works and sometimes they tell you to be more specific.
> 
> Mia's taken to trying to pick up the hide lately. I'm trying to figure out a way to hide the odor in something other than a tin or plastic tube so she can't try to bite it. We've worked hard on picking up objects so she's just like... yay I found it let me give it to you! She does NOT want to leave a hide though. Ugh. I didn't realize that you'd need to find more than one when I trained her alert. On a leash she is better though than off leash.


The way our instructor teaches this is if the dog re-alerts, say "Good!" and reward, then walk them away. If they alert again to that same one, say "Good! You found that one. Move on". So at first she encourages rewarding the re-alert a little, especially for dogs who aren't as confident or don't understand as well. Once the dog clearly understands and is going back for whatever reason, then we just say move on and there are no more treats for that hide. It's easier on a leash because you can make them move on, obviously. I'm sure if you work on it Mia will get it pretty quickly.


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## Finkie_Mom

I haven't done more than one hide in the same area yet... I will have to try... I know at work if it's an article hide (the people in the people hides generally get up/move after they are found) we will give verbal praise for hitting on it again, and then we will say something like, "One more!" The dogs pick it up pretty quick, as they learn they don't get to play for finding the same thing again. Verbal praise is boring 

Here's Jari today. We haven't worked this in a few weeks. Still only birch. I'm happy with his progress, though. I have to get him to try this in a new environment one of these days (like at my work) but I just don't have time. And my house is only so big LOL.


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## Laurelin

Haha how awesome that his alert is to bark!


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## Finkie_Mom

Laurelin said:


> Haha how awesome that his alert is to bark!


It came naturally LOL. I thought about changing it to a sit, but I decided I just like the bark 

We did have issues with his looking back at me for the reward, so I've been clicking his doing more barks and looking at source. Seems to be helping.

I actually think that doing this stuff with Kimma really helped her Barn Hunt "abilities." She is not afraid to search high and it seems to have heightened her sense of smell. Plus she has a bark alert as well - makes it pretty obvious where the rat is. I'm hoping this will help Jari, too, as while I'm not sure I will ever do formal nosework with him, he might as well join the Barn Hunt bandwagon with Kimma LOL.


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## dagwall

I find barn hunt and nosework complement each other very nicely. At least Jubel and I are enjoying doing them both.

Busy schedule coming together this spring and summer with both activities. NW1 trial early March, ORT for anise and clove end of March, weekend of 4 barn hunt trials early April, another weekend of 4 barn hunt trials early June, likely head back up for another weekend barn hunt in August as well. Next nosework trial depends on if we title at the trial in March so I can't plan too far ahead there.


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## dagwall

Passed our NW1 trial! Wasn't quick or pretty but we passed. Surprisingly we did best on containers which is one of our weaker elements. 13 hour day happy to be home and have a new title.


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## elrohwen

That's awesome! Congrats to you and Jubel!


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## Laurelin

Yay Jubel! That's awesome!

We started both girls on anise this weekend. They both did great and alerted fantastically. 

Summer was interesting because we method for several was to stand there and look like she wasn't searching then just run up to it in an instant. It was weird.


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## elrohwen

Nosework is not going well. For some reason (spring fever?) Watson's brain has fallen out and he has zero interest in searching at our training center. He walks around slowly, nose on the ground, sniffing where the other dogs have walked, and occasionally stopping to lick their footprints. I really think it's some weird intact teenage boy thing, not just general distraction. He's never been too distracted by the environment to do nosework - heck, it's the only thing he's really focused on, ever.

Last week was a bust and he only worked one time out of four, so I took him back to the car the other three times. This week was slightly better, but in the large area I had to force him to sniff each chair by directing him and tapping the chairs (he would alert correctly when we got to the right chair, but there was a lot of distraction between chairs). In the small area (a bathroom) he was better.

We stayed through to work with the next class (intro to odor) to work on easier hides paired with food and he did much better. Still some sniffing of the ground, but he actually worked most of the time.

So frustrating. At home he's as focused as ever. My hunch is that outside in non-doggy areas he would still be fine. It's really the other dogs that are the problem and he's obsessed with sniffing and licking where they have stepped. It's 3 intact males and a neutered male, so no females in heat. The training center was recently bleached due to a parvo scare, so no females in heat there either (they cleaned it the day before our class last week). My only answer is that spring fever is real and he's more interested in the reproductive status of other dogs than in finding birch. :headdesk:


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## dagwall

I guess it's good that trial you were interested in turned out to be NW2/3 and you couldn't actually sign up. Hopefully it's just a phase and he'll be focused again later down the road.

Jubel has his clove and anise ORTs tomorrow morning. Entries for the NW2 trial near me in June should open up in a few weeks so said my instructor who is hosting the trial. Not positive we'll be ready and pass but it'll be a good experience and he just might surprise me. On top of I don't see any other NW2 trials in the area even on the NACSW calendar right now.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I guess it's good that trial you were interested in turned out to be NW2/3 and you couldn't actually sign up. Hopefully it's just a phase and he'll be focused again later down the road.


Oh yes! Thank goodness! I would be seriously freaking out if he was doing this two weeks from a trial. We have until end of May to figure this out at least. Fingers crossed it's some weird phase.



> Jubel has his clove and anise ORTs tomorrow morning. Entries for the NW2 trial near me in June should open up in a few weeks so said my instructor who is hosting the trial. Not positive we'll be ready and pass but it'll be a good experience and he just might surprise me. On top of I don't see any other NW2 trials in the area even on the NACSW calendar right now.


Good luck! Definitely post about the NW2 trial if you enter. I feel like there's a fairly big difference in requirements between NW1 and 2 - I think we're generally ready for NW1 (except these last two weeks), but not sure at all about NW2.


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## elrohwen

Just remembered that I talked to another woman in my class and we want to set up our own traveling class, maybe twice a month. We're going to think of places away from the training facility that we can meet and set hides for each other without our instructor.

I know you guys (dagwall and Laurelin) have done traveling stuff - what kinds of places do you go? We were thinking schools and tractor supply/feed stores, but that's all we came up with so far. Obviously outdoor areas will be easier to find than indoor, but that's probably harder for most of the dogs anyway.


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## dagwall

Majority of our sites are outdoors. Lots of public parks with structures like pavilions, ampatheaters, train car at one park, parking garages, and some have buildings we can use. One of my instructors is a lawyer in her regular job and we've used her office building a few times, some people volunteer their homes.

You can do exteriors, containers, and vehicles pretty much anywhere outside it's just the interiors that are hard to find places for.


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## dagwall

Well we ended up one for two today for our ORTs. Luckily we did pass on the more pertinent odor, anise, and failed on clove which won't be an issue for a long time. Jubel was distracted and I was too quick to make a call. Should have made him check each box and waited for a clearer sign. The rain didn't help as he was still shaking off water while he searched. We are still good to sign up for the NW2 trial once it opens and that's all that maters. We'll get clove next time.


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## elrohwen

Congrats on getting anise! It's a shame you couldn't knock out clove too, but there's no rush.


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## Laurelin

We had an 'easter egg hunt' with the dogs. A couple bags of plastic eggs with 3 containing birch. Summer is getting really good at it!


on odor by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


onodor2 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


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## elrohwen

Doesn't look like we will be entering a NW1 trial any time soon :-( There is one coming up on May 31st and I assumed the entries would be 4-6 weeks before the trial. I checked yesterday and they opened March 24th, with the lottery drawing on March 30th. I submitted the online form anyway, but I don't have high hopes. I'm kind of annoyed with our instructor for not mentioning it, since she knows most of my class had planned to enter. Right now there aren't any others scheduled in my area, but hopefully something turns up.


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## dagwall

That sucks. I'd suggest joining the nacswmembership yahoo group, finding a local nosework yahoo group, or just checking the NACSW website frequently yourself to stay on top of trials. Nosework trials have the premiums and entries really early before the actual trial. In large part I think it's because it's become so popular, pretty sure a vast majority of trials are full long before the trial and have wait lists at this point. 

Sorry you missed out. Odds are pretty high if the lottery drawing was on the 30th you've missed your chance, but that isn't a certainty. Good luck just in case. If it actually let you submit an entry you may have a shot.


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## elrohwen

Yeah, I'm assuming I didn't get in. It let me submit the form, and then I got the email stating that it's not a confirmation, blah blah blah. It's been 24 hours since then, so I would guess that's a "no". 

I'm in the Yahoo group, but I don't always read the emails. It's all the way in late May, and I'm so used to entries being 4-6 weeks before an event, that I just didn't think about it. I also assumed our instructor would tell us when to register, since she's always so on top of that (she has a lot of students ready for a NW1 test). There are a couple other local sites that typically have ORTs and tests, so maybe they just aren't on the calendar yet. There is on in Massachusetts in June, but I'm attending a seminar that weekend.

Honestly, unless Watson gets himself together, he's not ready for a trial right now. A month ago I would've said yes, but since his brain fell out I don't know. I think two months would have been enough time to get him working again though. Last weekend he was actually excited to work by the end of class, though he did start it out by peeing all over everything (inside, which he has never done).


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## elrohwen

We got into the trial in May! Now I'm freaking out. A month or two ago I was confident that he could at least make a solid showing for NW1 (my biggest fear was an NQ because of peeing on something). Now I don't know. My instructor is probably going to say that I'm crazy for entering, but I want to give it a shot. We're going to step up our game and start really training outside of class and home. On Saturday in class he was sort of working, but he would also pass right over the odor without any recognition so ... we might crash and burn at this trial. 

Last night we did some vehicle hides in the driveway and he was excellent. Tonight we're going to the feed store to do some hides in the parking lot and maybe in the store.


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## dagwall

Good luck, hope his brain turns back on at least for the trial day.

The premium just got released for the NW2/NW3 trial in June. Entries open on May 1st, drawing on May 8th. So I should find out if we get in by the 8th or 9th. Trial is June 14-15. Don't really know if Jubel is ready for NW2 but it's worth trying since there are no other NW2 trials near by even on the calendar last I checked.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Good luck, hope his brain turns back on at least for the trial day.
> 
> The premium just got released for the NW2/NW3 trial in June. Entries open on May 1st, drawing on May 8th. So I should find out if we get in by the 8th or 9th. Trial is June 14-15. Don't really know if Jubel is ready for NW2 but it's worth trying since there are no other NW2 trials near by even on the calendar last I checked.


Woohoo! Good luck on NW2! 

I really hope his brain comes back. He seems much more distracted in class (that facility specifically) than in the rest of the world in general (no idea why) so maybe it will be ok. His problem is sniffing the tracks of other dogs (yay hormones!), not just "general distraction" and that's hard to replicate. I can go to the feed or hardware stores, but they don't get enough dogs through for that to be a big deal. I'll have to try a pet store next I think, but even then I rarely see other dogs in the store at the same time as us, so the tracks aren't super recent. I think I need to build up odor as being so reinforcing that even if he's sniffing for other dogs, the odor can break into his brain.


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## SDRRanger

Good luck Elrohwen. Crossing fingers his brain will come back lol. 

I'm getting excited to start our first class which is two weeks from today. I really think it'll give his brain a real workout.


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## elrohwen

SDRRanger said:


> Good luck Elrohwen. Crossing fingers his brain will come back lol.
> 
> I'm getting excited to start our first class which is two weeks from today. I really think it'll give his brain a real workout.


Thanks! We went to the feed store and he did really well, so I'm more hopeful now. We just need to do a lot of practice.

I hope you have fun in nosework! It's Watson's favorite activity and it's really fun to watch him do it.


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## SDRRanger

Quick question. Our first class is this evening (so excited) and had a question about food rewards. This centre uses hotdog as the food portion throughout the training and I was wondering if I should now make it for nosework only. Previously I've been using it for training/agility/etc but will that confuse him? Should it be linked ONLY to using his nose now?


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## elrohwen

SDRRanger said:


> Quick question. Our first class is this evening (so excited) and had a question about food rewards. This centre uses hotdog as the food portion throughout the training and I was wondering if I should now make it for nosework only. Previously I've been using it for training/agility/etc but will that confuse him? Should it be linked ONLY to using his nose now?


No, it doesn't matter. Hopefully they will get him on odor soon enough anyway. The point of the food is just to teach them to search, and build drive for searching, and then later as a reward for finding odor. I used whatever smelly high value treats I had on hand each week for early nosework classes (we brought our own).


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## melundie

Absolutely love nosework. Colby completed Levels 1 and 2. Ace is in level 1 now.

Here is one of Ace's runs:





Here's Cooper (my parents' dog) finding a hide:


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## elrohwen

One of the women in my class asked when we would be ready to trial, and the instructor said December. Now I'm starting to think she's crazy! I understand that Watson's brain has fallen out, and two of the dogs are still a bit lower drive and are building skills, but two of the dogs are fantastic. I have no doubt that they could go into a NW1 trial and be pretty successful. I guess I'm not sure what she's waiting for? It seems like she wants dogs to be up to NW2 or 3 level before competing at all. 

Now I've decided that I definitely won't tell her I'm signed up at the end of this month. If I don't get the title I won't mention it, though I'm not sure what I'll say if I do title. I told two of the other women in the class and they're going to keep it secret for me. Haha. They also think it's silly that we're supposed to wait until December. I do want to trust our instructor (and up until now we've all done exactly what she says), but I'm starting to feel like she's holding us back a bit. 

I'm also not thrilled with how classes are going. She also hasn't helped me fix whatever Watson's problem is in the training facility. Every week I feel like we go in and fail, when I know he can do this (and until March he was a completely different dog, so she knows what he's capable of). It's been completely up to me to re-build his focus and drive. As the instructor, especially in a class like nosework, I feel like she should be doing something to help him, or trying something new, even if it means he does a different search than the rest of the class. What am I paying her for if not to help work through issues like this?


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## dagwall

On the wait list for the June NW2 trial. Next option is to drive 4.5-5 hours for a trial in Hawely, PA in October or wait until December for a trial that is about 2 hours from my parents house in Clemmons, NC. So drive far and get a hotel or wait a bit longer and plan a visit to my parents with a day trip for a nosework trial. These are the best options for the next 6 months. Boo for lack of nosework trials. Maybe I'll get bumped up off the wait list, but no clue where I am on that list yet.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> On the wait list for the June NW2 trial. Next option is to drive 4.5-5 hours for a trial in Hawely, PA in October or wait until December for a trial that is about 2 hours from my parents house in Clemmons, NC. So drive far and get a hotel or wait a bit longer and plan a visit to my parents with a day trip for a nosework trial. These are the best options for the next 6 months. Boo for lack of nosework trials. Maybe I'll get bumped up off the wait list, but no clue where I am on that list yet.


Good luck getting into the trial!

I still think it's crazy that I got into the NW1 trial despite being a week or two past the initial registration period. You should drive up here- they seem much less popular than the ones down south.


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## dagwall

32 on the wait list, not looking very promising.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> 32 on the wait list, not looking very promising.


Ack, that sucks.

If you're looking for NW2 or NW3 trials next year there is one very close to my house in April (that I hope to attend next year!). You should come to that one! I've never heard of a waiting list that long for trials up here.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Ack, that sucks.
> 
> If you're looking for NW2 or NW3 trials next year there is one very close to my house in April (that I hope to attend next year!). You should come to that one! I've never heard of a waiting list that long for trials up here.


Haha you're so far away though. I'll have to see how Jubel behaves at the hotel when we go up to PA for a weekend of barn hunt trials next month. We stayed in a cheap motel the last time and he was obnoxious and barked his fool head off anytime he heard someone go by outside our room. Hoping he'll do better in the hotel I booked this time. Any trial up near you I'd need to spend the previous night in a hotel.


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## SDRRanger

Ranger had his first nosework class last night. There are two shepherds, two rotties, two little terrier things (pretty sure cairn terriers), a min pin, and Ranger. They are hoping to get a couple more newbies signed up shortly so then we'll divide into two rooms/groups as some of the other dogs are on scent only. 

The trainer seems super nice. He is heavily involved in scent detection work and SAR (trains dogs for police, border services, etc has a SAR team that goes throughout Canada and the states). He's quiet, friendly, and treats every person like it's a private lesson when it's their turn. We talked a little about what you can work up to, how to work with your dog, etc and then ran the dogs all through a couple times. 

Ranger was fed from one of the boxes and then I held him back while the trainer put more treats in and then ran over to place it with the other 6 boxes. I'm not sure Ranger got the idea of it to begin with, but he found the hotdogs and then we did it again a little quicker. On the second set he actually ran past the box, turned in mid-air as he realized he could smell hotdogs and went back to the class. 

The best part? Ranger settled awesome between his turns on the sidelines. 










He whined a little at the other dogs about halfway through, but with a big sigh laid out and waited his turn. 

Homework this week: six boxes open one with hot dogs, 2x twice a day. If he picks it up and starts really searching for it, we're allowed to fold down one of the four flaps but I'm in no hurry to push him. 

Elrohwen: the trainer was actually talking about how in the states the instructors tend to wait until the dog is actually testing higher than the level to actually trial...average is about 1 year, but can take longer whereas he chooses to trial them as soon as they're ready (average of six months). He said he choses to do it this way because he trains for police/detection work and likes moving them along as fast as they are comfortably going.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Haha you're so far away though. I'll have to see how Jubel behaves at the hotel when we go up to PA for a weekend of barn hunt trials next month. We stayed in a cheap motel the last time and he was obnoxious and barked his fool head off anytime he heard someone go by outside our room. Hoping he'll do better in the hotel I booked this time. Any trial up near you I'd need to spend the previous night in a hotel.


Yeah, that's exactly why we don't do hotels. Haha. I've camped and that's pretty much what he did the first night (he was fine after that). We're staying in a hotel with him in June, so we'll see. The first time we do a hotel for a show will probably be nationals next year in Tinonium.


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## elrohwen

SDRRanger said:


> Elrohwen: the trainer was actually talking about how in the states the instructors tend to wait until the dog is actually testing higher than the level to actually trial...average is about 1 year, but can take longer whereas he chooses to trial them as soon as they're ready (average of six months). He said he choses to do it this way because he trains for police/detection work and likes moving them along as fast as they are comfortably going.


Interesting that he actually brought that up! We've been training for a year and Watson has always been very good at it (this last month notwithstanding) so I don't see the point in waiting. You can reward with food at the trial (unlike agility or obedience or something) so I don't see that attending a trial too early could ruin any training. I wonder if part of the reason Watson has checked out is that he's a bit bored with nosework (at least in environments with lots of dog smells). 

Glad you and Ranger had fun! I'm surprised the other dogs got to hang out - here they are very strict about non-working dogs being crated or in cars. Watson's not great at settling so I actually like just throwing him in the car and not having to worry about him. They're primarily concerned with reactive dogs.


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## SDRRanger

I think as it gets farther along people start crating their dogs, but for now we all sit around the edge. There are two dogs in our class (the gsds) who are more reactive than the rest. They were both taken out of the room a few times to give them a minute to cool off. When I applied to join the class they asked if Ranger was dog reactive because this class was specifically for dog friendly beginner dogs. 

I did his first homework session late morning and he found his hotdogs, but almost as an after thought...also I have decided on our 'word' for searching (I like words that most people don't use). Zoeken is dutch for "search" so I figure it will work nicely.


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## Laurelin

I guess I should add that we both passed our birch ORTs this last weekend and also filmed a tv demo for a local dog television show that will be explaining the sport of nosework. It's going to go through all 4 elements and rules. Summer is demoing vehicles and Mia demo'd interiors. The rest of our advanced class did the other elements + suitcases (guess they thought it would look cool haha). Pretty much only the dog community watches the show but still pretty cool. 

Our class had a 100% ORT pass rate. Huzzah.


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## Laurelin

Here's some photos of practices. 


sniffy by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


nose by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Mia excite about food.


mia by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


DSC_1077 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


DSC_1019 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Tiny Granny Dog Haulin It


crop2 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Reward reward reward! 


crop by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


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## SheltieQuirks

First nosework class today! It was...interesting. I had fun, Astro had fun, but I don't think he really "gets" the game yet. It was just simple box drills with treats, and there was one round where he was walking along, caught the scent, and doubled back immediately to the box - the instructor was very pleased - but during one round, he decided it was time to just run around being a goof. The instructor emphasized a LOT that you have to keep the leash slack and follow the dog, no matter where they go, so I got a tour of both rings...Astro went all around the perimeter of the room, sniffing along, and at one point he just started senselessly running around and I had to run to keep up. The instructor tried clapping, whistling, talking to him, banging on one of the cardboard boxes, anything to direct Astro's attention back to the part of the ring with the boxes, and my dog very pointedly ignored him. It was kinda validating to hear someone else, a professional, say "Wow, he's...busy" in amazement. Astro's complete lack of people-focus is renowned!  I think that will actually serve him well once he figures out the game; he doesn't generally have any problem whatsoever not dialing in on whoever is handling him, and doing his own thing.

One troubling thing though. The dogs had to be crated when not doing a round of searching, and the club had three rows of crates in various sizes for people to use, which was nice. Except that two of the dogs in the class are just out-of-their-minds reactive. One of them was very antagonistic, whenever the other dog quieted down the second, more belligerent one would look right at him and snarl and bang the crate door (they weren't even remotely near each other, by the way) until he reacted.

I have to admit that I just freaking hate dogs who bark and scream and carry on, it was driving me nuts. I put my fingers in my ears at one point, it was that bad. Astro was quiet, as he always is, and every now and then I went over and dropped a treat in his crate just for putting up with being near all that racket. But whenever it came time for him to do his turn, he basically bolted out the crate door (he's very good about waiting normally), tail tucked, very stressed. I'm not really sure how to fix it, he hates dogs who bark as much as I do. At the park, he's incredibly dog social UNTIL a dog barks in his face, then it's tucked-tail-bug-eyed run- back-to-mom time. I don't want this class to be stressful on him, but the instructor was pretty adamant on letting the dogs sort it out and get used to it (which would be fine if the one wasn't hellbent on keeping the other one in fighting mode). I get that idea, but I can't help but feel bad for my little guy, who is quiet and polite but nervous about noise.

We'll see. I'm definitely going back next week, I'll just have to bring it up to the instructor.


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## iilo

what sort of timeline did you all introduce odor? I'm doing nosework and loving it but it seems like we will be on food for a long time, which I'm fine with based on the trainer's explanation, but was just curious about others's experiences.


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## Laurelin

6 weeks in I think is when we introduced birch? My dogs are now on both and anise. The anise went very fast.


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## Laurelin

I think our class went like such :

2 weeks box work with food and objects
Introducing other elements- vehicle, exterior, interior for the next 3 weeks with food. 
Mock 'trial' with food in all 4 elements 
Then odor box work

I know other people just do boxes then do odor. Or others start right on odor. Seems like there's a lot of ways to get started. I think we could have started on odor with Mia but summer probably needed those weeks of just food. The game did not click for summer until a good few weeks of work. And really it has been very recently that it has clicked throughly. She is very good now. 

Her ORT went spectacular. It was the third box and she just stuck like crazy to it.


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## dagwall

iilo said:


> what sort of timeline did you all introduce odor? I'm doing nosework and loving it but it seems like we will be on food for a long time, which I'm fine with based on the trainer's explanation, but was just curious about others's experiences.


Like Laurelin said it varies by trainer. My introduction was very slow. Two six week classes of foundations with food, odor was introduced until the third six week class. Then we have a fourth six week class with more odor before joining travel classes where we are introduced to anise and clove. Our introduction to anise and clove was treated as no big deal at all. It's just part of the travel classes. The hides can be any combination of birch, anise, clove alone or any paired combination of the odors.

Honestly adding new odors when you have a solid foundation with birch is no big deal at all. One of our instructors accidently set up a mock ORT for us with anise instead of birch when we were getting ready for our birch ORT and all the dogs found the anise easily. They had all only been exposed to anise a handful of times max at that point.

I think my introduction was very slow and could have gone faster but it did give us a very solid foundation in searching skills.


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## iilo

thanks! right now it looks like it will be 4 sets of 6 week classes before we introduce odor, which would seem a little excessive to me if I didn't have a pretty nervous dog. my trainer's philosophy about it is if they get spooked doing something while looking for odor, it could be hard to get them excited about searching again whereas if it's a high value food item... little bit easier for them to get scared/nervous. our 1st 6 week class was private and to introduce the facility and the game to nervous pup.. now we are on our 2nd set of group classes and will be doing a lot of "field trips" - exterior and car hides in different locations. my trainer seems to focus on making up scenarios that are as weird as possible to try and set the dogs up for success when it comes to a trailing environment.. but man, if I had a more bombproof dog I would be a little antsy about the speed.


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## elrohwen

iilo said:


> what sort of timeline did you all introduce odor? I'm doing nosework and loving it but it seems like we will be on food for a long time, which I'm fine with based on the trainer's explanation, but was just curious about others's experiences.


The first 6 week class was only food. The second 6 week class introduced birch though we paired with food the whole time. By the third session we were on odor only. I've heard of other classes that go to birch much faster.

4 sets of 6 week classes before introing odor would drive me nuts! My dog picked up on the game very quickly and I'm pretty sure he could have started odor within a few weeks.


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## Laurelin

We spent one week paired then started doing some paired and some not. I still pair on occasion.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> The first 6 week class was only food. The second 6 week class introduced birch though we paired with food the whole time. By the third session we were on odor only. I've heard of other classes that go to birch much faster.
> 
> 4 sets of 6 week classes before introing odor would drive me nuts! My dog picked up on the game very quickly and I'm pretty sure he could have started odor within a few weeks.


Yeah not introducing odor until my third set of classes drove me nuts but I didn't have any other options for classes at the time. Nosework has continued to grow in popularity since then and now I would have had other options. But I actually love my instructor so I'm not sure I would have left her. The third set of classes introduced paired hides and having the odor paired with food became optional very quickly and I opted for not pairing as soon as I could. The fourth set of classes was mostly just odor with the occasional pairing with food.


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## iilo

yeah sometimes I think that my dog would have been able to start on odor after 2 weeks or at least much sooner than the current timeline for us suggests.. she LOVES the game and seems to "get it" pretty solidly. but then again I have my moments where I think she's ready for a rally trial, and then I bring her to petco and she shuts down panting and shaking.. so it probably doesn't hurt that we haven't started pairing odor yet. she's teaching me to be a little more patient, that's for sure! 

and I'm in the same boat as you dagwall where I LOVE our instructor, so we'll stick with it. I just wanted to make sure that we were in fact going about things a little slow.. in case I want to do things a little differently when nextdog comes around. I've just gotta learn to be less eager about titles! they're not the end all be all.


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## dagwall

iilo said:


> yeah sometimes I think that my dog would have been able to start on odor after 2 weeks or at least much sooner than the current timeline for us suggests.. she LOVES the game and seems to "get it" pretty solidly. but then again I have my moments where I think she's ready for a rally trial, and then I bring her to petco and she shuts down panting and shaking.. so it probably doesn't hurt that we haven't started pairing odor yet. she's teaching me to be a little more patient, that's for sure!
> 
> and I'm in the same boat as you dagwall where I LOVE our instructor, so we'll stick with it. I just wanted to make sure that we were in fact going about things a little slow.. in case I want to do things a little differently when nextdog comes around. I've just gotta learn to be less eager about titles! they're not the end all be all.


Haha if you are anxious to get titles quickly nosework isn't the best sport. Trialing opportunities are limited and getting a title at a trial is all or nothing. It's fun and I love it but titles are just little extras not the goal with this sport. We've been at it for almost 2 years now I think and have attended one trial. Luckily we got our NW1 at our first trial. Now getting into a NW2 trial will be our challenge, let alone getting a title at one.


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## Laurelin

They do have element titles now! I wish you got a little title for your ORT haha since there's such limited trialling opportunity around. 

We got in the NW1 trial in Texas but I think I'm going to skip. 7 hours away and very hot and no one I know is going. Rumor has it that an NW1 trial will be held in Missouri this fall. I'm hoping to get in there.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> They do have element titles now! I wish you got a little title for your ORT haha since there's such limited trialling opportunity around.


The place I train has a page on their website for the titles everybody got that year. The owner of the facility is also in my NW class and she added all of us with ORT at the end of the dogs' names  I thought that was cute. 

I also got a little dog tag/key chain thingy with ORT on it from my instructor (it has 3 paw prints and the first one is colored in since it was for birch).


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## iilo

lol oh I know, I just get excited that there is a sport that it's actually likely that we CAN title in (someday) just because of how friendly it is to reactive dogs. mine isn't reactive but the way it's set up will probably keep it comparatively low stress for her as opposed to other trial environments. patience is not a virtue I have. also this is the first dog I've had who actually enjoys performance events (if she could remove all the elements that stress her.. but the more confidence we build the more she can ignore them), and I've been wanting to casually compete in something/anything for the past decade. I can keep waiting just some days I get the itch more than others


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## elrohwen

iilo said:


> lol oh I know, I just get excited that there is a sport that it's actually likely that we CAN title in (someday) just because of how friendly it is to reactive dogs. mine isn't reactive but the way it's set up will probably keep it comparatively low stress for her as opposed to other trial environments. patience is not a virtue I have. also this is the first dog I've had who actually enjoys performance events (if she could remove all the elements that stress her.. but the more confidence we build the more she can ignore them), and I've been wanting to casually compete in something/anything for the past decade. I can keep waiting just some days I get the itch more than others


I know what you mean. I'm not sure if we'll ever be ready to title in obedience/rally/agility so it's nice that nosework is more or less within reach for us (in addition to his conformation Ch).


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## kadylady

iilo said:


> what sort of timeline did you all introduce odor? I'm doing nosework and loving it but it seems like we will be on food for a long time, which I'm fine with based on the trainer's explanation, but was just curious about others's experiences.


I don't know much about nose work especially when it comes to the competitions and I've only done one short (4 week) nose work class so far but they we were introduced sounds very different than most. My instructors went to an Andrew Ramsey seminar and learned the way he teaches nose work and basically we were introducing odor paired with food on day 1, also clicking and continuing to treat at the source. We very quickly removed the food pair (clicking and treating at the source) and by the end of the 4 weeks most dogs were finding the odor pretty quickly and some people were even able to start to develop an alert. I haven't been able to get into another class yet but I did buy a scent kit this winter and introduced it to Zoey and she picked it up so fast that way and I was able to develop an alert with her really quickly. 

We don't have any competition plans yet, just doing it as something different or on poor weather days (like all winter). But there is a club in the area that is hosting a United Nosework trial at the end of the month so I may try and go watch. I don't know all the details but supposedly United Nosework is going to be picked up by the UKC sometime next year and it will be an official UKC event? So I'm sure a lot more trials will be popping up then.


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## elrohwen

kadylady, the Fenzi Academy offers nosework classes and from what I've seen the method sounds similar. I know they start with odor very early. I guess I can see the appeal in both methods. 

One of the women in my class has catahoulas and she shows them in the UKC regularly so she was going to look into UKC nosework. I'm interested in hearing the differences.


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## dagwall

Haha what is the UKC going to call it? If I recall correctly NACSW has trademarked the term nosework.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Haha what is the UKC going to call it? If I recall correctly NACSW has trademarked the term nosework.


From the articles on the UKC site it sounds like they're going to call it UKC Nosework: http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News/NoseworkComestotheUnitedK01022014032339PM

Not sure how that works with trademarks.


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## Laurelin

I think NACSW is k-9 nosework?


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## SDRRanger

I know I say this a lot, but damn does Ranger make me look good. 

Since last week Ranger had five sessions of hunting hot dogs at home in cardboard boxes. Each session involved three searches with him being tethered in the kitchen while I set up on the living room floor. I wanted a word we could use for only nosework (since search is a common word, and find it is used for his toys) so I decided on "Zoeken" which is dutch for search. 
It took probably two or three sessions of homework before Ranger understood what he was supposed to do with our last one around lunch time today. 

Well, it seems the homework really paid off. 










The instructor send us out with the rubbermaid containers (circular hole cut in the top) before realizing we were the newbies. I had given him the command and he had burst out onto the boxes as she mentioned this might be a bit too difficult for him...not when hot dog hunting is involved! He found the box with the food on his first pass-through. Each set is two searches usually and after our second one they told me I should wait for more of an alert (or interest in the box) before opening it up and giving him the reward. 

On the second set he stopped at the box and looked at me, so I asked him to "show me". Well, Ranger thought I couldn't understand because he jumped on the box with his front feet and pawed at it while staring me right in the eye...lots of praise for that one! The rest of his turns he took with the same running leap and found the box each time. Super proud doggy mum here (and glad we're not finding IEDs...or we'd be blown to bits)










My proudest moment though was having one of the other people (who works SAR dogs) come over to tell me specifically that Ranger was doing really well, ask his age, and say that it shows we did our homework through the week  They don't want to push him too fast so he'll be on hot dog only for at least another week and then we may try pairing with wintergreen the week after (or the week after that).


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## elrohwen

Good job, Ranger!

One thing with rewarding alerts (not sure what your instructor has explained) is that some dogs will start to false alert on odor because they know eye contact/sitting/pawing get them rewards. A few of the dogs in my class started doing this as we advanced (one dog hulk smashed every single box for an entire class). It's a tricky balance! Sounds like your instructor takes the path of teaching the dog to alert early on in training. I know many nosework instructors in the US don't ever train an alert and let the dog gradually develop one. It's an interesting subject and everybody seems to have a different opinion.


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## jade5280

Good job, Ranger!



elrohwen said:


> A few of the dogs in my class started doing this as we advanced (one dog hulk smashed every single box for an entire class).


LOL!


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## Laurelin

elrohwen said:


> Good job, Ranger!
> 
> One thing with rewarding alerts (not sure what your instructor has explained) is that some dogs will start to false alert on odor because they know eye contact/sitting/pawing get them rewards. A few of the dogs in my class started doing this as we advanced (one dog hulk smashed every single box for an entire class). It's a tricky balance! Sounds like your instructor takes the path of teaching the dog to alert early on in training. I know many nosework instructors in the US don't ever train an alert and let the dog gradually develop one. It's an interesting subject and everybody seems to have a different opinion.


Yes we have that issue- Primarily dogs who will alert as soon as they get on odor. It is a balance to try to train the dog to alert when they find the odor SOURCE, not when they just smell odor. Summer and Mia both fake me out sometimes. Summer almost always does when she's on the box NEXT to the one with odor. At our ORT I noticed it too. She caught odor on the first box and started trying to alert and then she'd alert stronger at the box with odor. So it's tricky and I have to wait her out because I know she has a tendency to alert the second she is on odor. 

We did vehicles last night and sure enough she'd get close and start sitting, looking at me, and pawing but I only alert now if her nose is on the source. 

We did a fun thing with about 50 boxes with 9 with odor too. Just rapid session of the dogs searching and finding all 9 boxes. Summer pretty well demolished everything. lol


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## elrohwen

Watson has never false alerted. He's fringed a few times when he was confused or something, but it's never occurred to him to just alert and try to get treats. I think he's just more interested in sniffing than in the rewards and he's a pretty independent worker. 

The catahoula in my class who hulk smashed is highly trained (has multiple obedience titles, his BH, etc) and very smart, and he was trying to game the system. "Well, I smashed that box and she gave me food, so I'm going to smash all of the boxes!" It was a very deliberate paw box, stare at owner, move on to next box, paw box, stare at owner, the whole way around the room (she didn't react or do anything when he was doing this). I felt so bad for her because this was only a few weeks before our ORT and she was freaking out, but after that one time he went back to actually finding odor. I guess he just wanted to test the game and make sure there wasn't an easier way to get treats. This was after about a year of training nosework, so I think it's amazing that he was still thinking it through so deliberately and just had to try and see what happened if he alerted on every box.

The cocker is also well trained (going for his CDX in obedience) and his default is just to sit and look at his owner whenever he is confused. His actual alert is pretty strong, but he will sit and look at her once in a while if he's not finding odor and isn't sure what to do, and she has to be careful to know which sit+eye contact is odor and which is just him.


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## Laurelin

Our nosework video for a local tv: http://www.ksbitv.com/local/dog-talk/

May 10th episode and nosework part starts at 22 minutes. Mia is at 25 ish minutes. Summer at 27

LOL the part with me kissing Mia cracks me up. They were like PET THEM AND ACT LIKE YOU LOVE THEM. I kept getting in trouble for not hugging them.


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## dagwall

Haha, Jubel is way too subtle with his ACTUAL alerts to call anything he does false alerts. My instructors do not encourage teaching an alert. If one happens overtime great but they want everyone to focus on learning to read their dog. 

It's kinda funny the difference recently between Jubel doing searches in our travel classes, at the ORT, and NW1 trial vs. how he searches and alerts when I do hides at home. He's a crazy spazz who attacks and paws the tins I hide at home. The only hides he comes close to hiding in classes are ones in centrifuge tubes in the ground, and he might just eat those q-tips given the chance. Other than that he'll just focus his sniffing at the source for longer than anywhere else (5 seconds being very long) and move on. Very rarely he will nose the source, look at me, and MAYBE nose the source again. I reward like crazy when he does that but it's still VERY rare. 

My best indication with him is reading his body language as he searches, I can tell the difference between him just searching for odor and when he is actually ON odor and looking for the source. Have to pay very close attention once he's on odor because he might just stop at source for a few seconds to confirm for himself and then move on looking for another. He enjoys the search so much he isn't really looking to get paid as much as he likes finding the source. Even with super high value treats his odor obedience isn't that great. It's a work in progress for sure. But at home he is all over the tin, pawing it, will pick it up in his mouth. There is no mistaking when he finds the hide at home. I think I need to do inaccessible hides at home so he can't get the tin and has to give me an alert.


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## iilo

laurelin, the host of that show is a real hoot!

we are hopefully outside tomorrow, weather cooperating. last time we did exteriors someone (not me, hint: 4 legs) got very freaked out/distracted by a Bird Monster and refused to search for a good 3-5 minutes.. first time she hasn't searched when asked to "get it" since the game first clicked (week 2 i think).


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## Canyx

elrohwen said:


> Good job, Ranger!
> 
> One thing with rewarding alerts (not sure what your instructor has explained) is that some dogs will start to false alert on odor because they know eye contact/sitting/pawing get them rewards. A few of the dogs in my class started doing this as we advanced (one dog hulk smashed every single box for an entire class). It's a tricky balance! Sounds like your instructor takes the path of teaching the dog to alert early on in training. I know many nosework instructors in the US don't ever train an alert and let the dog gradually develop one. It's an interesting subject and everybody seems to have a different opinion.


Interesting thought! I guess I trained Sor to do it differently... I had the source in plain sight and rewarded for interacting with that first, so when I hid it he knew the reward would come from finding it and the scenting it out part came naturally/secondarily, if that makes any sense. And then I asked for the Sit when it was clear that he knew the game was to find it. 
And HA, the catahoula... That seems to be a 'houla trait, the thinking enough for itself to test the waters like that. I love the breed.

And I also want to say I love reading about everyone's nosework experiences! Such fun stories. I enjoy browsing this thread from time to time. Nosework gets me in a way that agility and other sports don't, even though I don't do this formally...


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Interesting thought! I guess I trained Sor to do it differently... I had the source in plain sight and rewarded for interacting with that first, so when I hid it he knew the reward would come from finding it and the scenting it out part came naturally/secondarily, if that makes any sense. And then I asked for the Sit when it was clear that he knew the game was to find it.


I think the Fenzi classes teach it sort of like that (though I haven't done a beginning nosework class with them). I think actual detection training is done similarly by starting right on scent (again, don't quote me). It seems like nosework as a sport went to using food to lay the foundation because the dogs doing it have all different levels of drive and food is a pretty common motivator. 

I think Watson could have started on odor from the first day and figured it out. He is just so scent/hunt driven that it was only a matter of showing him what he should be searching for - searching itself was a natural behavior. For many dogs, using scent to hunt for things isn't so natural (or isn't such a strong drive) so the desire to hunt is built in with food. I imagine the dogs chosen for actual detection work already have that hunt drive genetically (hence why springers are commonly used in the UK for detection) so you can start right in on the scent and building drive for scent.



> And HA, the catahoula... That seems to be a 'houla trait, the thinking enough for itself to test the waters like that. I love the breed.


Yeah, her dogs are awesome. Her male is so smart and thoughtful and deliberate, though he has much more defensive drive than I would be able to handle in a dog. She actually quit Sch training because his defensive drive was too high for protection work. He does well at everything he tries though. Her female is gorgeous and I'd take her in a second (and she's a less "serious" dog).

One of my favorite parts about nosework class is meeting the variety of dogs. In obedience and agility all of the dogs are at a level similar to Watson. In nosework, we have show dogs, obedience dogs, etc at all different levels of training. It's fun to talk to the owners too about different sports they've done and their experiences.


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## Canyx

Not to derail the thread too far... But what do you mean about defensive drive being too high? I am familiar with the basics of Sch but perhaps not well enough... Can't imagine how her dog would be acting over the top, except if it stops following commands.


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## elrohwen

Canyx said:


> Not to derail the thread too far... But what do you mean about defensive drive being too high? I am familiar with the basics of Sch but perhaps not well enough... Can't imagine how her dog would be acting over the top, except if it stops following commands.


My impression is that he took it too seriously and wasn't easy to control. It wasn't a "game" to him, so she didn't want to continue. It could be that he was fine, but she just wasn't comfortable. She also didn't like the club that much or the people, so I think she was happy to quit after he got his BH and did some tracking.


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## Canyx

Gotcha. Thanks!


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## elrohwen

Well, I quit nosework. My company is transferring me upstate for 10 months. Nosework is on the weekends and I'll technically be home, but I'd rather not be worrying about classes and things. I email the owner of the facility on Friday after I found out, but I haven't heard back from her ... hopefully she got my note.

We're still doing the trial on the 31st of this month, so hopefully he gets his NW1 and then it will be a good time to take a little break.


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## SDRRanger

At the end of the week BF succumbed to a nasty case of stomach virus which we originally thought was food poisoning...until I came down with it on Sunday at 2am. First time in decades I felt that awful. Ranger spent all of Sunday on the bed with me (or waiting outside the bathroom) and BF had to come get him to make him go potty/eat. If someone had offered to put me down I might have taken them up on the offer, but by Monday I just felt like I was hungover and by the evening I was able to bring Ranger to class. 

I was worried that he would have forgotten everything since we didn't get to practice between classes due to everything and I ran him through a hot dog find a couple times in the afternoon before we went. 

Class was small since it's a long weekend and there was only three shepherds, the rotties, and us. One of the gsds has a hard time with Ranger in the class (was attacked by a black dog and fear reacts to him), but Ranger didn't stare at her and minded his own business. 

We did out first set with hotdog in the boxes and then combined it with wintergreen (the first scent we'll look the trial with...I have no idea how that all works, but I definitely need to research it). Ranger went through the boxes searching and you could see his face wrinkle up at the weird new smell. He wasn't was interested in eating all the hot dog in the box (I wouldn't have been either...I could smell it from 5.5 feet higher than Ranger and his nose is way better than mine), but wasn't put off searching. We then switched to only a piece in the box with the WG and me supplying the reward by hand (but in the box). 

Ranger tried to cheat me a couple times over our other runs. He tried signalling on the box where the scent box had been before and smashed a couple boxes. The instructor says that it will happen around this time since they've figured out a little of what you're after and want to see exactly how few steps they need to take for the reward. "Look mum, this is a nice box....treat? No, ok.....". His end run was great and he sniffed each box before choosing the right one with his nose shoved right in the hole. 

Homework this week: 1 piece of hotdog and the WG in the box for searching and reward delivered by hand in the box.


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## SDRRanger

This week Ranger worked eight boxes with Wintergreen scent in one (reward coming from me upon alerting). It's neat watching his mind work. He went passed the box originally to check out all the boxes and then came right back to the scent after figuring out it was the different one of the group. He only tried smashing one box which is an improvement lol. 

Instructor told me that we'll stay here for a while giving him the opportunity to build habit in finding the scent among boxes before moving forward. I'm quite happy that we have this to work on and giving him a run through a couple times a day doesn't take any time at all. 

Also have been told that I should use a high value food reward that is specifically for nosework now. While I'd love to use hot dog, it's so easy to grab for other training...so I'm thinking something specific. He gets cheese for training too so that's out...need to come up with something.


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## elrohwen

I don't want to disagree with your instructor, because it's not like I'm super experienced, but I don't think the food reward matters. The dog should cue off of the scent and your verbal and body language cues. I've never found the type of reward to matter even the littlest bit. I use anything and everything.


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## dagwall

I agree you shouldn't need a nosework specific reward, I don't think it'd hurt to use one but isn't needed. I've used just about everything for nosework at this point. Right now I'm upping my game with chicken hearts and gizzards to try and get a stronger alert, Jubel is getting more subtle as if that was possible haha. 

Last two travel classes he hasn't been very focused at all. Of course last class I think Bronson was distracting him a bit on top of his general poor performance recently. I brought Bronson along for socialization reasons and one of my classmates is very much a hound person and was all over him haha. I was going to put him back in the car for Jubel's runs and she offered to hold him. Too bad she's a bit scatter brained, she managed to drop his leash. Fortunately he came straight to me instead of running off. Jubel was already distracted, Bronson running up in the middle shot it all to hell.

I need to stop being lazy and do more shell game like practices. ie 5-6 tins in a line and he has to solidly alert on the right tin, move it around and try again. Really helped the first time he did that.


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## elrohwen

NW1 trial this Saturday. Ahhh!! With all of the crazy work stuff going on we haven't practiced in a couple weeks, though before that we got in some good practices in completely new outdoor environments and he was doing well. Hopefully he focuses and doesn't pee on stuff.


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## dagwall

Good luck with the trial this weekend.


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## SDRRanger

Good luck!!


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## elrohwen

Ugh, the nosework trial didn't go well. We passed vehicles and exterior (by far the hardest ones) and failed interior and containers, back to back, in the afternoon. It was completely my fault and my handling was so bad that the judges asked to speak to me after the trial. My instructor has always told us to pick a pattern and have the dog search on that pattern, which is exactly what I did at the trial. Watson has never liked doing it that way and always likes to be independent and lead me - when I make him do a pattern I feel like I'm fighting him, but our instructor told me what I was doing was right. The judges told me I should have just let him go and he would have taken me right to each hide, but I was making him do it my way and it made him frustrated. I'm just so disappointed. I feel like my instructor let us down (and if you've been reading the past couple months, I've felt like she wasn't good for us for a while now). I wonder if his issues in class weren't hormones or age, but just not wanting to search anymore with the way I was handling him. Ugh.

So yeah, it sucked. I mean, I'm extremely glad I went and learned that my original instincts for how to handle him were completely correct. It was just hard to learn it through failure. Haha. I would have been better off to enter a NW1 trial late last year, or quit classes when he first started to struggle and just do it my way.

The vehicle was hard - a sedan, large truck, and large van. We almost ran out of time just getting around them all, but when they called 30sec I knew it was on the truck (where Watson had decided to start his search) and we went back there and he got it with 5 seconds to spare.

Exterior wasn't too hard, just a smallish rectangular area with a bunch of stuff on two sides. Again, I over handled and made him look at everything, and then he took me right back to the odor. Apparently a lot of dogs peed and I suspected that when he sniffed a weedy plant, but he didn't try to pee, so that was awesome.

The afternoon was interior and containers back to back. For interiors I again made him search everything and he seemed interested in one table in the back, and some stuff in the front of the room. He alerted at the back of the room once but I didn't believe him (our first issue, since he never false alerts and I knew or highly suspected he was false alerting - a very bad sign and at that point I kind of knew it was over). He was interested in the trashcan in front, but when we went to the back he alerted again and I called it. It was in the trashcan in the front. The judge had me take him up on a loose leash and let him do what he wanted, and he sniffed a lot, but didn't even alert. I guess he was so tired and frustrated that he just didn't know what to do. In class he's acted like that, where he'll sniff the odor, but then walk away and act like he has no idea what it is - it looks like he needs more training, or more value for the odor (which both our instructor and the judge said), but I know that's not it. When he acts like that, he's just tired/frustrated/confused/whatever. It doesn't seem to be a training problem so much as an immediate problem in that situation.

Then after failing we had to go right into the container room where there were 20 people (which I totally didn't expect). That threw me off right there. The box was near the front and one of the first we saw, but he didn't react. He alerted on a different box, but I still thought it was false, walked him around, he alerted on it again, so I called it and it was wrong. He was just done at that point and neither of the last two searches were anything like his normal searching.

I guess it was a combination of him being super tired at the end (we were 35th out of 40 for the afternoon) and being frustrated with my handling. I quit nosework classes mostly because of my work stuff, but I was considering it anyway since we were just repeating mistakes each class and his drive was completely gone in class (though fine outside of class). Now I'm glad we quit. I won't lie, I'm very disappointed and a bit angry at our instructor, because she was always adamant about how we should do things, even when it was totally wrong for my dog and killed his drive to do his favorite thing. He still loves to do it outside of class, and worked hard yesterday, so I think we'll be fine, but it was just very eye opening to talk to the judges.

Sorry for the novel!


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## dagwall

Even though you didn't title you did learn from your exeperience and that's all you can really ask for. I completely agree with your frustration over your trainer. It kinda baffles me when I see people work their dogs in nosework and DON'T let them take the lead on where to search first. To have an instructor tell you to specifically pick a patten and enforce it doesn't sound good to me. I always let Jubel pick our path when we start searches, I stop him from going more than four to five feet out of the search area and try and keep him moving unless he's clearly on odor and trying to source it. Once he's done his initial search I'll direct him to areas he may have skipped and then maybe direct him in a patten around the search area if he didn't find the hide himself. Often if the handler is making the dog follow the handler's pattern they could be pulling their dog away from odor, which is something you don't want to be doing.

I agree it sounds like Watson was a combination of tired and frustrated by the afternoon which isn't a good combo. Sorry your instructor isn't working out for you but I'm glad you still enjoy the sport and plan to continue on your own. Maybe you'll find a new and better instructor if your relocation becomes permenant. Good luck and keep nosework fun for both you and Watson.

I just made up a new batch of chicken heart and gizzard treats so hoping this will help Jubel show up to our travel class ready to work today. I think I'm going to do some practice at home before class too in a way that demands to proper alert directly at source. Planning to put about five tins in a line on the side of my car, clearly in view and only one it 'hot'. Making a shell game out of it. He gives me a good alert, high praise and treats, move the hide position, rinse and repeat a handful, of times. We did this game once before in class on a vertical pole and once he understood the game he actually had a pretty good alert for a few weeks. Don't know why I've waited so long to do this myself when it helped so much the first time. Well I did try it once when I first got my tins and stuff but I just put them on the floor, Jubel decided to bat them all around and look at me for his treat. Guess they need to be mounted haha. We'll see how it goes.


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## elrohwen

Yeah, I used to just let him go, and he was awesome and loved it. He is an independent dog and I think he really enjoyed that nosework was something he could lead while I followed along. Somewhere we went wrong though ... When he wasn't searching over the past two months, my instructor had me put him on leash and basically make him search each area, and that's pretty much what I did yesterday. She also ran a lot of drills with us where we picked a handling pattern and did it, even when it involved dragging him along my path instead of letting him lead me (which I hated and he hated, but I took her word for it and thought maybe we just needed more work). I completely changed how I used to do searches based on her instruction and advice. Ugh. If we didn't have the past couple months of classes to practice doing things so horribly, I think we would have been ok. I'm just beyond frustrated. She was also very bossy and always wanted us to do things her way. Maybe her way works for some dogs, but it pretty much shut Watson down in class. I wish I could have learned this lesson before the trial, since they are so few and far between, and it was such a struggle to get there (it's pretty close to where I'm now working, so I had to drive home Friday night, then drive right back up at 6:30am on Saturday). 

It is interesting that both my instructor and the judge thought that his problems were low value rewards, or not enough value for odor. I realize now that is entirely incorrect and I had a hunch it was incorrect the last couple months, I just didn't know how to respond to the information he was giving me. It has nothing to do with the rewards and he'll search for kibble, if he's not frustrated or otherwise shut down. When he's playing the game (which used to be all the time, without fail) he has a beautiful alert and doesn't even care what the reward is.

I'm so glad I didn't listen to her when she said we weren't ready. Watson was totally ready. I was 4 months ago, but went astray and now I know how to get back on track. So frustrating that trials are so few and far between!


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## dagwall

Thankfully both my main instructors are VERY big on this is supposed to be FUN for you and your dog. If the dog isn't having fun you are doing it wrong. So if that means trying something different you try something different. Both my instructors tailor their advice to the dog and handler, it is NOT a some size fits all deal.


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## elrohwen

She was very much into "the nosework people say to do this so it's the best way". She also trained only two border collies in the sport, which I imagine work differently from other breeds. And she just wasn't good at troubleshooting and being creative when a dog needed it. Watson went from the star of the class to the only one who wouldn't work at all, so it was time to go. I think I know enough at this point to work with him on my own, though I liked having a class.


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## dagwall

Okay Jubel is going to take a break from nosework for three to four weeks to see if his interest perks back up after no odor exposure for a bit. He's been progressively indifferent over the last few weeks. Tried the 'shell' game this afternoon and couldn't get him to really focus on searching, did a few hides inside and he did play a bit, then went to our class later and he just wasn't in it. Talked to the instructor about ideas to get his focus back. He suggested the break and mixing it up with the treats, bring a couple types next time I go ranging from kibble to hotdogs. Hoping that helps.

We have a barn hunt trial next weekend, he's been somewhat blah about barnhunts too so I'm hoping he showes up to play. Can't get my money back now for the barn hunt and hotel so we're going and hoping for the best. Where did my happy hunting hound go?


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## SDRRanger

Do you think it's something to do with the warmer weather?


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## Sibe

Yep. Definitely need to get into nosework. I need my dogs to help me find stray Nerf darts to win the battles with my husband. That's all I want.

Among all the other reasons to do it too. But it's seriously hard to find stray darts.


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## SheltieQuirks

elrohwen said:


> She was very much into "the nosework people say to do this so it's the best way". She also trained only two border collies in the sport, which I imagine work differently from other breeds. And she just wasn't good at troubleshooting and being creative when a dog needed it. Watson went from the star of the class to the only one who wouldn't work at all, so it was time to go. I think I know enough at this point to work with him on my own, though I liked having a class.


I'm sorry your trial was so frustrating  To be honest, your trainer's general tactic is a bit baffling to me too...but then I've only been with a nosework instructor who is RESOLUTE that you follow the dog, rather than the other way around, when you're in nosework-mode. I have actually sprinted after Astro for 5-10 minutes straight (huge workout bonus!) because he does nosework like a bat out of hell, and if the leash ever becomes taut the instructor shouts that you can't be influencing them. He's like...the exact opposite of your old instructor  Astro loves loves loves his approach, and the dogs in class that were more unsure/handler dependent are really starting to say "forget you, I've got this" more and more.

Anyway, I believe Watson's love to hunt and be independent will come through and you guys will get over this. Sucks that you guys lost time/ground, but at least you can move forward with an eye toward building him back up and having more fun!

As for Astro's nosework stuff, we practiced today for about 15 minutes in the apartment and he had a BLAST. He's so funny, he waits to be taken out of his crate politely and quietly, but the second he's out and I say "ready...hunt!" he shoots off like a rocket. He's totally invested in the game, he does a lot of head-in-the-air sniffing, he just does it FAST. He leaps up to check counters and ladders no problem, he roots around under things, he runs along edges with his head down...he's really taking to it as an activity. 

The classes are good for me, too, because they're teaching me to deal with noisy dogs  I just can't stand barking dogs, but going to nosework is worth it, so I have to just deal with the fussy pups in their crate. I think it's needed, I am way too noise intolerant.


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## SDRRanger

Didn't get a lot of practice in between classes as the BF's dad is here from Holland and I've been super busy with the little foster Chico. We did get a couple rounds in at home over the weekend and I headed off to class yesterday with the thought that we wouldn't get much out of class. 

I was wrong lol. 

Ranger did fantastic. Our first turn we put food in the box with the wintergreen and he zoomed in and found it almost immediately. Our subsequent turns involved me providing the reward in the box after he picked the right one. There was no box smashing, no frustration, no foolishness. He went out each time with gusto and searched with a good alert at the end. 

Our second to last round involved the scent in a box on one of three chairs (there were boxes on the ground and on the other chairs). He found the scent area, but couldn't figure out it was on the chair so I guided him over to one of the non-scent chair boxes and asked him to check it. Once he realized they were on chairs too he went back and alerted on the correct one. 

Last round was a quick one with it back on the floor boxes and he went right in  So super proud of my boy!

We've signed up for the CGN test on August 9th. He shouldn't have a problem with most things and we're getting a list of the requirements this week to start working on. We were actually early for class (there is a rally/obedience class put on before us at the same place) and they invited us in to do the long down practice with them. Ranger did a great 30 second down with me beside him, and a fantastic 2 minute down with me standing in front at the end of the lead with the trainer walking around all the dogs.


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## elrohwen

SheltieQuirks said:


> I'm sorry your trial was so frustrating  To be honest, your trainer's general tactic is a bit baffling to me too...but then I've only been with a nosework instructor who is RESOLUTE that you follow the dog, rather than the other way around, when you're in nosework-mode. I have actually sprinted after Astro for 5-10 minutes straight (huge workout bonus!) because he does nosework like a bat out of hell, and if the leash ever becomes taut the instructor shouts that you can't be influencing them. He's like...the exact opposite of your old instructor  Astro loves loves loves his approach, and the dogs in class that were more unsure/handler dependent are really starting to say "forget you, I've got this" more and more.


Yeah, I know, it always confused me too, but I figured she must know what she's talking about. She has border collies and aussies, so maybe those breeds are more handler oriented and working a pattern works for them? I with I had just gone with my gut and let him go. We had the option to do the interior off leash which I really regret not doing. In class he had been so so bad off leash (standing one spot with his nose on the ground, not working even a little) that I stopped trusting him. At home he was still a bat out of hell off leash, but I really didn't know if he would work at the trial environment (though he proved that he could work in various random places we practiced over the last month, so it seems to be just a class thing). I so wish the trial had been before March, when everything was great! I'm convinced we could have passed it 6 months ago better than we could pass now, which really makes me step back and wonder what the heck I was getting out of class. To be fair though, my husband thought the searches were much harder than he expected. The vehicle search was two large vehicles plus a small sedan, so it was a lot of surface area. I made Watson cover the whole area and we almost ran out of time before we could get back to where I suspected it was.

I can't wait to try again, but I don't see any trials online until August, and that's not very close by.


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## dagwall

They just posted about a new trial in Maryland in December on the yahoo group. That's nice so I won't need to make a trip to visit my parents and turn that into a trial opportunity day. Of course this is all dependent upon Jubel starting to care/get excited over nosework again. Really hoping about a month off with no odor work will help.


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## Laurelin

We're doing an advanced NW class right now. Me and Summer. It's good so far! Dealing with inaccessible hides and things like that. She is really coming into her own.


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## iilo

ugh we had a rough class today. worked on perimeters and god forbid searching in a place that is slightly different than what she's used to, on top of a hot dog who had a break from everything for a week while i was on vacation and she was being boarded... not great. she was fine with the relatively easy hides but once things got even slightly complicated and some new environmental things were introduced she got super stressed, eventually found 1 hide but didn't take the food (lamb lung so value wasn't an issue). some days i feel like we aren't making any progress whatsoever. next week we'll be in an entirely different interior location so i'm guessing it will be a whole lot of stress panting but hopefully she will at least try to search. she loves the game when she has a mind to play it! and it ups her confidence so much, it's just getting her brain to switch that way to begin with that is sometimes a struggle.


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## MafiaPrincess

How did your Fenzi course go Laurelin? I went MIA from life for a while.. I reread this thread last night though. Smudge and I are entered in a SDDA trial in a few weeks. We entered, and now I feel we aren't as good to go as I thought we were. 

His alerts are more 'enthusiastic' then ever to the point I had to start retraining them about 5 days ago. By not teaching us a formal alert and letting it develop.. it turned into this :/ But he was always pretty dead on with his paw.... but he scratched a beater vehicle last week and I realized we truly had a problem..


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## Laurelin

I really liked it and would definitely recommend it! It dealt with a lot of the harder things like multiple hides, inaccessible hides, getting better alerts, etc. I just did the bronze version and felt that was enough for what I needed. It is aimed at NW2 and NW3 level dogs but I hadn't even passed my ORT and I felt like we were right on par with the skills needed. WE had been working for a year and a half though and just hadn't trialed any because of how far trials are and how uncommon they are.


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## Sibe

Great blog post with graphics about how scent and air flow works, here's a small sample from the post
http://houndandthefound.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/how-scent-and-airflow-works/


















*Pooling Scent*




collects in an area like a pool of water
usually occurs in a low area
Occurs where there is little dispersal of scent by the wind
It hard for dog to follow a scent pool to the subject











*Chimney Effect*




Happens when air currents move straight up an object
alerts may occur nearby -but-
scent may come down as much as several hundred meters away from the subject
This makes it nearly impossible for the dog to find the subject
You should check around tall objects in the area


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## SDRRanger

This was the final night of our first set of sessions. 

There were only 4 of us there for class tonight so we got in a few searches. Ranger’s first search they used the little holed lid to see how he was doing. He had a little trouble finding it at first, but he circled back and (through I believe the process of elimination) realized which box it was. Did a couple searches mixing them up between on chairs and on the ground which he had no issues with.

His biggest test though was a search with the scent located in a book bag on the ground. The search space had boxes, cones, two bags, a tin, and a couple chairs with items on them. Ranger searched everything and couldn’t find it on the first full spin around; although he definitely was moving in a direction around the bag. He kept checking the boxes surrounded the bag, and I led him away for a couple seconds to let them flip it open a bit and he came back in to find it quite quickly.

You could almost see the light bulb go off in his head as he realized that the scent doesn’t necessarily need to be in a box. That he must check everything in the area to find it.

Note: This class I gave him a drink about halfway through and he downed quite a lot. It goes to show that scent work is a workout for him and I must start offering water after every set of searches.

Also, one of the instructors has offered for us to turn up to class early and work in the obedience class for the last fifteen to start giving him practice for his Canine Good Citizenship test the beginning of August. They’ve also mentioned setting up a search weekend for tracking which I think we’ll attend. Heck, if for nothing else we’ll get to see some good dogs working trails.


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## Laurelin

Has anyone ever had a dog that started thinking they should be rewarded when they get in odor vs finding the source? That is what is going on with Summer lately. She gets on odor and then immediately starts looking at me for treats. I'm having to wait her out

I'm wondering if it's just going to be an issue of reading her and knowing she alerts on odor before hitting the source or if there's a way to work through that a bit more? 

We did vehicles this week and this was very clear when there were two hides relatively close on the same car. She got hung up between the two and couldn't source which way to go (probably because everywhere she turned there was odor) and so she alerted pretty much directly between the sources.

My trainer went to a seminar with some actual detection people and they were interesting. They don't expect nearly as exact an alert as we do. If a dog alerts to drugs or explosives or whatnot on a desk in a row of desks, their protocol is that they search not only that desk but also 1-2 desks next to it in every direction. 

We had an off duty k9 officer come up to us in a park a couple weekends ago where our group was practicing. He thought it was super cool and was very complimentary. It was really neat to get him to talk about his detection dogs. He'd never heard of nosework before.


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## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> Has anyone ever had a dog that started thinking they should be rewarded when they get in odor vs finding the source? That is what is going on with Summer lately. She gets on odor and then immediately starts looking at me for treats. I'm having to wait her out
> 
> I'm wondering if it's just going to be an issue of reading her and knowing she alerts on odor before hitting the source or if there's a way to work through that a bit more?
> 
> We did vehicles this week and this was very clear when there were two hides relatively close on the same car. She got hung up between the two and couldn't source which way to go (probably because everywhere she turned there was odor) and so she alerted pretty much directly between the sources.
> 
> My trainer went to a seminar with some actual detection people and they were interesting. They don't expect nearly as exact an alert as we do. If a dog alerts to drugs or explosives or whatnot on a desk in a row of desks, their protocol is that they search not only that desk but also 1-2 desks next to it in every direction.
> 
> We had an off duty k9 officer come up to us in a park a couple weekends ago where our group was practicing. He thought it was super cool and was very complimentary. It was really neat to get him to talk about his detection dogs. He'd never heard of nosework before.


I haven't personally had this issue but others in my class have. My instructors basically just say to wait them out until they pin point the source and reward the hell out of them. Super jackpot it when they work for it and find the source. Possibly if it's a continuing issue you can go back to pairing the hides sometimes for the instant reward at source. I've seen them do both or a combination of both depending on the dog in question.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> I haven't personally had this issue but others in my class have. My instructors basically just say to wait them out until they pin point the source and reward the hell out of them. Super jackpot it when they work for it and find the source. Possibly if it's a continuing issue you can go back to pairing the hides sometimes for the instant reward at source. I've seen them do both or a combination of both depending on the dog in question.


Yeah, I would probably go back to pairing for a little bit and see if that helps. If it doesn't, then I would wait it out and jackpot when she's on source. You could also have her "show you" the source after she alerts - so alert, reward, then have her point it out again. I do this with Watson, just in case I would need him to show me exactly where it is again, and it might solidify things for her about what is being rewarded.


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## Laurelin

Yeah right now she's like I SMELLED THE SMELL. WHY NO REWARD?

Poor thing. 

We've been pairing some more and that is helping a little. She is still alerting me when she first picks up the odor though.


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## Finkie_Mom

Could you make it a bit easier for a while so she finds it very simple to go to source? Wait her out and jackpot when she gets there?

Even with our detection dogs we aim for near perfection. In the real world you can be kind of close and that's enough (for some things), but the dogs we are training we want to go to source every time. Bombs, live find, everything. One of my dogs actually got frustrated today for the first time in a while (live find in a large building with 2 empty floors to clear first, I had no idea where the victim was so I was going on reading him) and I helped him to sweep some of the parts he was "kind of" interested in waiting for a convincing alert. It helped him to get his brain together and do things a bit more systematically (he's totally off leash and independent at this point). Once we were actually in odor, it was so easy to read him. I did another systematic search with him when he got in the exact room since I didn't know exactly where the victim was, and it really sealed the deal. He just needed that "A-ha!" moment. And I did, too, so that I didn't call him off something


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## MafiaPrincess

We did it. Trialled this morning. 195/200 between the three components (SDDA does three rather then four.. vehicle and exterior are either or, up to the judge). Smudge got his SD-S (SP) title. I was told our vehicle search was the best one he'd seen of the day which rocked my socks as I was most worried about that one.


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## MafiaPrincess

Lauren, how is Summer doing now?

I introduced scent two (pine for SDDA) yesterday to Smudge. We have done a single hide since the trial, wanted t give him a break as I was spastic pre-trial. Container in hand- touch lid with nose c and t. Immediately did it, after a few reps threw it in a 'clean' container that I labeled as another scent box. Nose in hole.. no prob. Search of three boxes.. no issue.. 8 boxes.. no issue. Room search, was so fast you'd think he saw me hide it. Did another room search, took longer, he worked hard to find it, searched well and it was horribly humid. Super proud and left it on a super positive note.


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## elrohwen

How is everybody doing with nosework?

I took a break after our NW1 trial. Partially because of my work and lack of time. Partially because I think we got in a bad place with the sport and I wanted to take a break and start fresh. I want him to be really excited about it again. 

There are two nearby trials in October and registration starts this month, so I'm hoping to get into one of them. My husband is worried that we haven't practiced, but I told him Watson will remember. We practiced in the basement last weekend and he was perfect - focused, fast, and his alerts were right on. I'm excited to starting playing nosework with him again! I should look for more ORTs too since I'm pretty sure he won't have an issue getting anise and clove.


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## dagwall

We took about a month long break from both nosework and barn hunt because Jubel just really wasn't into the "game" when we went to classes or trials. Haven't done anything barn hunt related yet but when we went back to nosework classes he's done well again. Last weekend he started off poorly because the hides were in a picnic pavilion area and he found food. So his brain went into full on food hunting mode, but once we got him on an odor hide he snapped on to "nosework" mode and did pretty good. 

We have done two classes recently under an instructor we don't see often (usually only did weekday classes too far out for me to go to) who was also a judge at Jubel's NW1 trial. He's very interested in how subtle Jubel is and thoughts on how to get him to alert better. He agrees that Jubel absolutely understands what he's doing and can and will find odor, he just doesn't place importance on TELLING ME where the odor is frequently. He views it as a puzzle he wants to solve haha. 

So yeah, still subtle and hard to read but he is enjoying the game again at least. There is a NW2 trial listed in Maryland in December, hoping to get into that one and have Jubel ready for it.


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## SDRRanger

Last Monday was our final class of the set and we'll be starting our 4th set this week. Ranger did his DOT test through SDDA yesterday on just wintergreen and did fantastic! I wasn't sure how well he'd manage since the day before he was flinging boxes around during home practice and we were still switching between just wintergreen and wintergreen/food. He was fantastic though, and had the second fastest time in the scent. 










This fall they are holding an actual trial and I *think* I'm going to get my membership through the SDDA and try it out. I'm hate competing, but I love competing...which I am sure some of your get. We'll see how it goes, but for now I am super proud of my boy. 

Add: Also, the people I train through are going to be holding some air scenting weekends to see what the dogs think (very basic start with handlers running away from their dogs in an old "wild west" paintball acreage and hiding behind a tree within their sight) and the more trained dogs will actually hunt out live find people. It will be fun to see what Ranger thinks of it.


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## SDRRanger

Had nosework class again tonight. With the trial coming up in the fall we are now adding different items to the search (book bags, coffee cups, pop cans, etc) for them to search through for the scent. It's amazing watching the dogs working through the boxes and suddenly realizing that the scent can be located in something other than a box. The fun one was the cone with the scent can underneath poking out...the dogs would find the scent coming from the hole in the top of the cone and then be so happy haha.


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## SDRRanger

This week things seem to be really clicking for us both so I came out on cloud 9 (and am enjoying it because you know how quickly training animals can make you humble). Calm relaxing entries into the search area are what works for us (whereas everyone else is instructed to work their dogs up). He's also now finding the scent, looking at me, and when asked to "show me" is nose touching the item. 

This week/weekend I'm heading out to watch/work on some air scenting with the SAR people and we'll see how Ranger does. Also signed up for a tracking/intro to air scent class in October (I'm lucky and they like Ranger so I get to tag along sooner  )


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## elrohwen

Glad you guys are doing so well! I miss taking nosework classes (back when we were both enjoying them, before March this year).

I signed us up for another NW1 trial in October. There are two a week apart, same distance away (one in NJ and one in PA) so I'm going to send in a registration for both and see if I make the list. If I get into both I'm tempted to enter, in case we mess up the first one we can try again right away.

Maybe they would let me switch my entry to NW2 if we pass NW1 in time? Not sure. I would feel bad taking an entry away from someone else in the second trial, but then I would kick myself if we failed the first and missed another opportunity so quickly. We only get a chance to trial a couple times a year.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Maybe they would let me switch my entry to NW2 if we pass NW1 in time? Not sure. I would feel bad taking an entry away from someone else in the second trial, but then I would kick myself if we failed the first and missed another opportunity so quickly. We only get a chance to trial a couple times a year.


Nope. You can't sign up for NW2 until you have your NW1 title and no move ups if you title before. If you get your title at the first one you can either repeat the NW1 or drop and let someone else on the wait list have your spot, but you might not get your money back on the second trial if you get into both.


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## MafiaPrincess

We have been playing with the SDDA advanced elements.. Moo is doing well finding a container of each in a room. We've only played with containers a few times. They put a distraction (food or toy) in one at the advanced level. Took a while but he was willing to leave it to keep working. Since the last trial we haven't really done any scent work till the last two weeks. Work is busy and I guess I was fried and had had enough frantic practice pre trial since I had been worried.

I started my crested on wintergreen targeting in my hand tonight too. He happened to be lose while Moo was searching a room and hilariously went and targeted the pine container. Didn't see me hide it.. and it wasn't in plain sight. We've done no scent work. It was kind of amusing.


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## SDRRanger

Tonight I went out with a few people and tried Ranger on a long line outside in their training setup. We did two searches of three finds and he did great. He was doing a bit of sweeping back and forth on his own and looked comfortable finding them. Each one found had a good alert (with nose touch after command "show me"). They even put in a container with Thyme and he picked it out no problem...guess we're ready for the DOT thyme testing now too! 

After we did ours, I got to watch a gsd to live search air scenting. It was really neat watching him work until he found the scent, zero in on the person, then rush back to the handler and lead them in. 

It was also the first time I've worked him out of the car so it was a lot of new experiences for him. I'm just so happy with him and his evolving work ethic.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Nope. You can't sign up for NW2 until you have your NW1 title and no move ups if you title before. If you get your title at the first one you can either repeat the NW1 or drop and let someone else on the wait list have your spot, but you might not get your money back on the second trial if you get into both.


Yeah, I figured that. And I figured I wouldn't get my money back either because they are within a week or two of each other - definitely passed the refund period. I would feel bad if they couldn't give my spot to someone else (and bad about losing the money) but I really don't want to be looking for NW1 trials again next year. 

After typing my last post I realized I never went for my anise or clove ORTs anyway, so I can't do NW2 until I finish that. I meant to do those this summer, but work craziness pushed it out of my mind and I convinced myself I had already done them. lol I should see if there are any coming up, because that's something I'm sure he could knock out easily enough.


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## SDRRanger

Yesterday I loaded Ranger in the car at 11 and we headed for another nosework session with the bigwigs out at the same place. Ranger did two scent searches (one with three finds of thyme or wintergreen, and one of wintergreen hidden under the corner of a 'house' foundation) and did really well. Even if he couldn't find the exact scent, he found the area and would stay there...just needed some help checking everywhere in the area. 









(excuse the grimace on my face, by this time my back was ready to check out with meds and a prone position). 

And someone took a picture! This was us coming round the back of the building where the scent was under the foundation. Got him checking the other side at the bottom and he worked his way around until he found it...and then foot slammed it waaayyyy under the house which meant I had to crawl under and get it haha. 

At the end of the day we let him do two off leash person finds (the guy hyped him up and ran away to hide very easily with us preventing Ranger from seeing him only as he ducked in). Ranger found him both times and loved it. 

There is a NW1 (the Canadian version) this fall that I will be taking him in. I was super excited with how well he did searching, but was most proud of the fact he worked out of the car for 4 hours and settled well with no panting or pacing. He likes the whole back flat with a sleeping area and a water bowl...just chilled like a pro!


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## elrohwen

Great pic!

So we got into the NW1 trial on Oct 18. Wish us luck! My training goals are to make it fun, and do vehicles. He got the vehicle search the last time, but it took forever (literally the entire time allowed) so we need to speed that up. He's fine with 1 or 2 cars, but it was 3 vehicles and one was a very large landscaping-type truck - he just needs to be more speedy and spend less time trying to search off the vehicles.


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## SDRRanger

Good luck in October! 

I spent all the time I was watching asking questions and trying to start figuring out what the air currents mean so I can search more effectively and help Ranger more. I'm definitely hooked.


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## elrohwen

SDRRanger said:


> Good luck in October!
> 
> I spent all the time I was watching asking questions and trying to start figuring out what the air currents mean so I can search more effectively and help Ranger more. I'm definitely hooked.


Thanks!

Personally, I've found all of that information interesting, but not practically useful. I'm sure it would be for large search areas, but for NW as a sport it hasn't helped. If he misses something on vehicles I just try to approach from a different angle so the wind carries it a different way. Otherwise I'm trying to let him make all of the decisions since being overly controlling is what messed us up in the last trial.


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## SDRRanger

elrohwen said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Personally, I've found all of that information interesting, but not practically useful. I'm sure it would be for large search areas, but for NW as a sport it hasn't helped. If he misses something on vehicles I just try to approach from a different angle so the wind carries it a different way. Otherwise I'm trying to let him make all of the decisions since being overly controlling is what messed us up in the last trial.


Oh yeah, I understand that. I'm hoping Ranger will like this enough that we can do outdoor live find searches eventually so I'm trying to get a handle on currents and such now.


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## elrohwen

SDRRanger said:


> Oh yeah, I understand that. I'm hoping Ranger will like this enough that we can do outdoor live find searches eventually so I'm trying to get a handle on currents and such now.


Yeah, for actual SAR stuff when you're looking for a person over a large area, I'm sure knowledge about air currents makes a huge difference.


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## SDRRanger

Last night we were back in the centre for nose work class. The first search Ranger had some issues and kept circling back to a can (which was beside the bag holding the find). We've been doing this long enough now that I can see him working his mind trying to figure out what was happening. Couldn't stop fixating, so I had him check each item and he alerted on the bag as soon as he sniffed it. Apparently the opening under the door nearby was blowing all the scent onto the can and Ranger couldn't stop smelling it to find where it was coming from. 

The second search he found it and alerted, but on his way over to it he trampled a couple of the boxes lol. I was worried he was going to start smashing everything again, but our third search was the best of the night. Scent was in a wallet and when he alerted I asked him to "show me". Instead of bumping it with his nose (which is the way he confirms his alert) he picked the wallet up and threw it across the room lol. No bomb detection for this dog!


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## ireth0

I am posting here because SDRRanger took me to a class and I am hooked... Scheduling doesn't work for us right now but we'll be signing up for a class sometime in the winter most likely.

I think Luna will really enjoy it. It's a low impact/energy activity so I don't have to worry about her physically (needing to be speedy or potential impact on her joints) and she seems to enjoy sniffing in general.


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## SDRRanger

ireth0 said:


> I am posting here because SDRRanger took me to a class and I am hooked... Scheduling doesn't work for us right now but we'll be signing up for a class sometime in the winter most likely.
> 
> I think Luna will really enjoy it. It's a low impact/energy activity so I don't have to worry about her physically (needing to be speedy or potential impact on her joints) and she seems to enjoy sniffing in general.


Yay! I'm glad you enjoyed your night checking out what's it's all about. I like the down time in between searches and the social atmosphere too lol. 

***

I've been a horrible person and haven't been practicing at home lately except for some live finds (people hiding) in the woods which Ranger LOVES. We did have class on Monday and I forgot to give Ranger his meal early so he was pretty focused on his food. He found his wintergreen find, but had a little issues with the Thyme (I HATE the smell of it). We had to check individual items instead of letting him choose himself, but he did find it in the end. 

I have to send in his SDDA membership papers...what do you put if your dog isn't a breed?


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## elrohwen

Yay, I'm glad you and Luna are enjoying nosework!

I tried to practice with Watson on vacation and it was a little rough. My friends placed the hides, and a couple were quite hard, especially considering we were in a new place and there were 4 people crammed into the cabin as well. Watson tried very hard, but he got frustrated easily and went back to hides he had already found, which he doesn't do at home anymore. My biggest issue a few months ago was whether or not he would work, so at least he's excited to work. I think we just need to get back into some real practice sessions to sharpen him up, and we *really* need to work on vehicles. I hate doing vehicles and he's so bad at them (he tends to bounce off and try to search the ground near them) and I know our lack of practice doesn't help.

Just about 1 month to go until our second shot at NW1!


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## ireth0

One way or another we are staring nosework class in November. Depending on other scheduling it might be pushed back a couple weeks but it's happening. I'm so pumped!


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## SDRRanger

ireth0 said:


> One way or another we are staring nosework class in November. Depending on other scheduling it might be pushed back a couple weeks but it's happening. I'm so pumped!


I'm glad it's working out. They are such a great group of people...the type you'd sit around with after class just to chat. 

Due to the foster medical emergency this week I didn't get do my class last Monday or the air scent weekend clinic *boo*, BUT they will be holding another next week and they're allowing me to shift the money to that clinic instead (since it was an emergency). We have class tonight and I will be so happy to have him mentally tired again. 

On the 2nd of November is another DOT test and I think we'll be doing pine this time. At the end of November is our first chance for a SDDA sanctioned trial and I am excited to see what he can do.


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## ireth0

Whoops, looks like we're actually starting tonight! Eeep!


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## dagwall

After well over a year of doing nosework, earning a NW1 title in that time, Jubel still doesn't have a solid alert. Last weekend we finally started on a plan to train an alert for him. Fingers crossed it works and I can sign up for the NW2 trial in December with a little more confidence that I won't just waste my money haha. 

What we've decided to do for him is when he gets his nose on source I excitedly call his name to get eye contact then reward at source getting his nose back on source. The hope is he will develop the habit of nose on source, eye contact, nose back on source himself. I get so jealous watching some of the other dogs search who naturally developed such great and clear alerts. Jubel is content that HE found it, doesn't really feel the need to show me where it is.


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## SDRRanger

dagwall said:


> After well over a year of doing nosework, earning a NW1 title in that time, Jubel still doesn't have a solid alert. Last weekend we finally started on a plan to train an alert for him. Fingers crossed it works and I can sign up for the NW2 trial in December with a little more confidence that I won't just waste my money haha.
> 
> What we've decided to do for him is when he gets his nose on source I excitedly call his name to get eye contact then reward at source getting his nose back on source. The hope is he will develop the habit of nose on source, eye contact, nose back on source himself. I get so jealous watching some of the other dogs search who naturally developed such great and clear alerts. Jubel is content that HE found it, doesn't really feel the need to show me where it is.


Good luck! Ranger's choice of alert is slamming his face into it and if I'm not quick enough he throws it in the air or body slams it...no bomb detection


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## dagwall

SDRRanger said:


> Good luck! Ranger's choice of alert is slamming his face into it and if I'm not quick enough he throws it in the air or body slams it...no bomb detection


Ha, yeah that wouldn't fly in NACSW. If the dog moves/physically damages the hide you can get a NQ. A nudge in a container search likely won't get you in trouble but if they send the container flying or damage it that is no good.


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## ireth0

I was so proud of Luna last night! Even though we joined late and so are behind the rest of the class (we joined in week 3 of 6), she did such a great job. And aside from some tension on the leash because she wanted to have her turn, she was very well behaved once we sat down and got settled. I was a bit worried when we first got there because she was all over the place when I was trying to fill out our registration forms, haha. 

She is also a destroyer of boxes. The first time she went for one she basically just stood all of her 73lbs on top of it and I was afraid she was going to break and/or bend it irreparably. :doh:
She paws them very insistently and I think it's because she thinks it's a food toy so she's trying to knock the hotdog out, lol.


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## SDRRanger

She was super, Ireth0 and they really liked her there  


Ranger was good after having pretty much two weeks off, but the first search he was distracted and I had a hard time making him not act like a dang fool throwing things around. After our turn I took him out and he used the bathroom and came back for our second run through as a superstar...why couldn't he poop BEFORE class lol.


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## Quin Sweeney

First of all- yes, I have broken away from the NASCW. I plan to train to my own guidelines, but I do plan to title Lola in the NASCW organization. This is why she's searching the bed of a truck.

The bed searches are the easiest- she jumps up into the open back like a champ now, no hesitation around it. I started introducing Birch scent, so we're just learning by association right now.

















The hardest ones are the ones that are above her normal height, hidden a tiny crevasse. I love watching her find that _really_ hard hide after a lot of hard thinking and pacing around.


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## elrohwen

I've posted about this on FB, but we failed our NW1 trial again last weekend :-( Wah! We did so so well for most of it, but Watson fell apart on the vehicle search. He was the 37th dog to go in the afternoon, and it was super windy, and he was just tired and distracted and done. I got him to search a little (between sniffing random leaves and things) and he stuck his head in a wheel well, alerted really strongly, and was wrong. Haha. 

I do feel a bit better about it than last time though. Last time I messed up a lot, and his stamina was even lower, and his training wasn't in a good place when we did it, so it was a mess. This time I felt like he was really prepared and game out blazing (he got really nice comments for the exterior and interior in the morning), but he's just not mature enough to work that long I guess. At least I feel like I did my job and he was well prepared. 

We got some nice comments from a volunteer who watched us last time (she does the videos) and said we were so much better. I wanted to tell her this is how good we always were, until that horrible trial, but I just said thank you 

Another fun thing is that there were two other Welshies there! I almost never see Welshies anywhere so that was really fun.


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## ireth0

Luna did really well at class last night, I was so proud! She very obviously knows what her job is now, and she's very focused until she finds the right box. I've noticed some of the dogs will sort of break and look around or look at their handler, but she is nose to the ground until she finds it.

This class I led her away and had her sit so she couldn't see where it was and was going in blind... didn't phase her at all. And she was giving me such great eye contact with her sit, I could have died, haha.

She also did really well relaxing between her turns. She had moments where she got excited because she wanted it to be our turn, but she wasn't all over the place as much as last time and even laid down a couple times while we were waiting. A couple times other dogs in the class barked at her and she didn't react at all which surprised me a bit. I swear, she makes me look like I know what I'm doing in that class.

Then the guy who trains the local SAR dogs came in (he also technically runs the classes we're taking) about halfway through and our instructor said to him "Have you seen Luna work? Wait till you see..." and I was like aw jeeze... Loon please don't break anything... and then when it was our turn she went to get him from the other room so he could watch. Greeeat. No pressure or anything, haha. Nothing was flattened in our wake so I guess that's a good thing...

We're supposed to just keep going with food, so I'm going to do some more variation of the box positions at home and start introducing her more to it being above the ground. Maybe start hiding it a bit to get her to work her nose more to find.


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## SDRRanger

Ranger had a good lesson last night at nose work. We did two searches with three finds in each (including a jacket and another find higher than the 30" height for the testing. His favourite are the containers super close together (closer than required) and he always seems to pick the right one...even with the scent swirling in an alcove. He had a big play date earlier that day so I think it helped settle him down to do his job.


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## dagwall

And we are 30 on the wait list for the NW2 trial in Dec we signed up for. We were 37 on the wait list for the trial back in June. Not looking good for us getting into any close trials. They don't happen often and random chance is not kind to us. 

I might have to start signing up for these far away trials that would require a hotel stay overnight. Though that isn't happening until Jubel is giving me a much better alert. I accept the decent chance we won't title if we got into the December trial but I still had to sign us up as it's only a little over an hour away. If I'm springing for a hotel room I need a better feeling we can get a title that day.


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## elrohwen

That sucks! I haven't been on a waiting list yet for the two trials I entered, so it must be less popular up here. There are usually a bunch in NJ that might not be too far? There were some Welshie people from Maryland as my trial this month and they said it was a 4 hour drive.


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## ireth0

I was looking at the registration forms for a local trial. We're obviously not ready yet but I wanted to look just to see what all was involved. We need to put a registered name for Luna, which means I get to have some fun... First thought was 'Lunafish Sandwich' which is a nickname my bf gave her.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> That sucks! I haven't been on a waiting list yet for the two trials I entered, so it must be less popular up here. There are usually a bunch in NJ that might not be too far? There were some Welshie people from Maryland as my trial this month and they said it was a 4 hour drive.


People I train with go all over PA, NJ, and some up to NY and CT for trials. A few were out in Ohio this weekend. 2 hours is my travel limit for a nosework trial without getting a hotel room, it's just too long of a day to tack on more driving than that.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> People I train with go all over PA, NJ, and some up to NY and CT for trials. A few were out in Ohio this weekend. 2 hours is my travel limit for a nosework trial without getting a hotel room, it's just too long of a day to tack on more driving than that.


Yeah, I totally understand that. The trials are so long.

If you are ever interested in driving out to one in the NJ/NY/CT area, just let me know! I'd love to get together. We have to get our NW1 title first though ... haha



ireth0 said:


> First thought was 'Lunafish Sandwich' which is a nickname my bf gave her.


Hahaha. That is a great name!


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## ireth0

So that photo is of Luna finding her first ever scent only find, after only working with scent at all (paired with food) that class. On TOP of that, the scent was in a wallet that was sitting on top of the box, instead of a regular box, which was seeming to throw a lot of the other dogs off.

Holy crap. So proud of this dog.


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## SDRRanger

She was pretty sure she could find the bag of hot dogs sitting on the table too lol. 

Ranger had a good class last night. Did two room searches (one with 2 finds and one with 3) and was willing to work to find them. In Ireth0's pic, you can see two table against the wall and in the gap between the two was a find...well, Ranger figured that since I was getting him to check the wall he would hop up on the tables to do his scent (not exactly what I asked, but he was searching lol) and found/alerted on top of the tables. When we do finds on chairs he likes to climb on them too...guess he's not too worried about different surfaces lol


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## ireth0

SDRRanger said:


> She was pretty sure she could find the bag of hot dogs sitting on the table too lol.
> 
> Ranger had a good class last night. Did two room searches (one with 2 finds and one with 3) and was willing to work to find them. In Ireth0's pic, you can see two table against the wall and in the gap between the two was a find...well, Ranger figured that since I was getting him to check the wall he would hop up on the tables to do his scent (not exactly what I asked, but he was searching lol) and found/alerted on top of the tables. When we do finds on chairs he likes to climb on them too...guess he's not too worried about different surfaces lol


Hahaha, yep she was all about that bag of hot dogs. She also found the bait box when we were coming in... over on the table by the wall. But I saw the writing on the side and it was the bait box, just empty.


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## Greater Swiss

I started scent detection with Caeda about a month and a half ago....she ROCKS at it. The instructor is encouraging us to go to a trial in NS at the end of the month. We are going to do it. She'll be at Started level....but, I am contemplating trying to train her to see if we can tackle Advanced, which includes 2 hides, and a new scent (Pine). We were supposed to start vehicle searches this week, but due to weather we didn't....but I tried two with Caeda, on one of our cars and she rocked it. She also has a formal alert now (nose bop and a down). She has taken to this so incredibly well, and she has excellent drive, and with the formal alert trained she isn't destroying stuff anymore lol. Soooooo......I'd like some input from you guys on that so I can mull it over....is it pushing it to train multiple hides and Pine? I've emailed the instructor as well, but she is fairly busy and haven't heard back from her yet. I THINK we can do it, and if we fail advanced I'm fine with that....My main worry is if there is a big chance of screwing something up and ruining future training (If I continue as I have, I don't think I will....but maybe there is something I'm not thinking of!!). 

Oh, and interesting side note on our scent detection class from last week. The first run, many dogs had trouble. They kept alerting or at very least showing excessive interest on a bag that wasn't the hide. It tuns out that a several-years-old tube of Rub A535 was in the bag.....I looked it up, apparently the main active ingredient in it is Methyl Salicylate.....AKA: Oil of Wintergreen! Just thought I'd share that in case any of you are using old bags as hides....if it has (or perhaps even has had) that particular product in there....it might cause some confusion and cause an alert! Plus, don't use it on yourself before training/trial, and watch for having it in your house as well perhaps....I see confusion potential there! Just thought I'd mention that, I found it quite interesting. Caeda did an alert on the bag.....and I managed to get her to move along and eventually get the hide (I got hints though).....which does lead me to believe that perhaps the multiple hides thing could be doable, especially if it is intentional 
Anyway, thoughts on pushing to advanced are appreciated.....I'm a little nervous about going ahead without the trainer, but I'm pretty sure I can do it. 

Oh.....and when you teach another scent....do you ever put a name to it? just curious....


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## ireth0

Greater Swiss said:


> I started scent detection with Caeda about a month and a half ago....she ROCKS at it. The instructor is encouraging us to go to a trial in NS at the end of the month. We are going to do it. She'll be at Started level....but, I am contemplating trying to train her to see if we can tackle Advanced, which includes 2 hides, and a new scent (Pine). We were supposed to start vehicle searches this week, but due to weather we didn't....but I tried two with Caeda, on one of our cars and she rocked it. She also has a formal alert now (nose bop and a down). She has taken to this so incredibly well, and she has excellent drive, and with the formal alert trained she isn't destroying stuff anymore lol. Soooooo......I'd like some input from you guys on that so I can mull it over....is it pushing it to train multiple hides and Pine? I've emailed the instructor as well, but she is fairly busy and haven't heard back from her yet. I THINK we can do it, and if we fail advanced I'm fine with that....My main worry is if there is a big chance of screwing something up and ruining future training (If I continue as I have, I don't think I will....but maybe there is something I'm not thinking of!!).
> 
> Oh, and interesting side note on our scent detection class from last week. The first run, many dogs had trouble. They kept alerting or at very least showing excessive interest on a bag that wasn't the hide. It tuns out that a several-years-old tube of Rub A535 was in the bag.....I looked it up, apparently the main active ingredient in it is Methyl Salicylate.....AKA: Oil of Wintergreen! Just thought I'd share that in case any of you are using old bags as hides....if it has (or perhaps even has had) that particular product in there....it might cause some confusion and cause an alert! Plus, don't use it on yourself before training/trial, and watch for having it in your house as well perhaps....I see confusion potential there! Just thought I'd mention that, I found it quite interesting. Caeda did an alert on the bag.....and I managed to get her to move along and eventually get the hide (I got hints though).....which does lead me to believe that perhaps the multiple hides thing could be doable, especially if it is intentional
> Anyway, thoughts on pushing to advanced are appreciated.....I'm a little nervous about going ahead without the trainer, but I'm pretty sure I can do it.
> 
> Oh.....and when you teach another scent....do you ever put a name to it? just curious....


I think that trial in NS is with our detection group? If so you should totally meet up with SDRRanger and I! I'm sure Luna would love to meet Caeda if Caeda is friendly. (Can't remember if she likes other dogs or not)


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## Greater Swiss

ireth0 said:


> I think that trial in NS is with our detection group? If so you should totally meet up with SDRRanger and I! I'm sure Luna would love to meet Caeda if Caeda is friendly. (Can't remember if she likes other dogs or not)


YES! That would be awesome!! Are you both doing the trial? Caeda is great with other dogs, though some occasionally find her a little too pushy, though it is usually really shy dogs, and often small ones.


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## SDRRanger

Greater Swiss said:


> YES! That would be awesome!! Are you both doing the trial? Caeda is great with other dogs, though some occasionally find her a little too pushy, though it is usually really shy dogs, and often small ones.


I'm not doing the trial mainly because I have a surgical appt next week and don't know what shape I would be in by then...but I wanted to come watch and will definitely now to meet another DF'er


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## Greater Swiss

SDRRanger said:


> I'm not doing the trial mainly because I have a surgical appt next week and don't know what shape I would be in by then...but I wanted to come watch and will definitely now to meet another DF'er


Awesome!!!! Looking forward to it!!

So....thoughts anyone? Am I pushing it to try for advanced? I've got all of next week off, and will be able to do a bunch of short sessions with her. I'm confident she could learn, just worried that there's something that might screw up future training somehow....


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## dagwall

Sorry don't know the Canadian nosework stuff but in NACSW you can't skip levels. For us you have to do your ORT (odor recognition test), then you can trial at the NW1 level. Can't move up to NW2 until you have passed the needed ORTs for both odors and passes your NW1. So I don't know what exactly skipping to advanced would mean for you. 

I will say adding odor isn't nearly as big a deal as people seem to think. Once you dog understands searching for odor it's simple to pair food with the new odor and the first odor with the new odor. They learn quick the new odor is important too. In NACSW you won't ever have to have your dog differentiate between odors so no you don't need a separate queue for the new odor, searching is searching.

A month and a half is a really short amount of time before trialing but again I don't know any details for how your trials work. On top of my training going very slowly and skewing my prospective a bit. I would have liked to go faster and Jubel could have handled it but a month and a half still sounds like a short period of time.


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## ireth0

Greater Swiss said:


> Awesome!!!! Looking forward to it!!
> 
> So....thoughts anyone? Am I pushing it to try for advanced? I've got all of next week off, and will be able to do a bunch of short sessions with her. I'm confident she could learn, just worried that there's something that might screw up future training somehow....


We're not ready for trialing yet, but I will come to say hi for sure and bring Luna maybe depending on what else is going on.


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## Greater Swiss

ireth0 said:


> We're not ready for trialing yet, but I will come to say hi for sure and bring Luna maybe depending on what else is going on.


We probably aren't ready for trialing yet either technically....Caeda just started this in September, but the trainer actually suggested the trial and says Caeda can do it, and I believe her...unless the distraction is too large, or I screw something up (more likely than her screwing up honestly....). 

Dagwall....we aren't technically skipping levels, I'd have to qualify on the Saturday of the trial at "Started" level, and if she passes that we can move up to Advanced on the Sunday. We don't have to have our Designated Odor Test to be in the trial I don't believe, but if I recall correctly, we are going to have that on the last day of our classes for Wintergreen. If I find out we have to have the Pine DOT I'll see if I can get a session with the trainer (she's qualified to do DOTs), and see about Pine. I figured adding a new odor wouldn't be too hard....I'm always worried I'll mess something up because of something I haven't thought of, and since I'm fairly new to this I figured it could be possible for me to overlook something.


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## dagwall

Greater Swiss said:


> We probably aren't ready for trialing yet either technically....Caeda just started this in September, but the trainer actually suggested the trial and says Caeda can do it, and I believe her...unless the distraction is too large, or I screw something up (more likely than her screwing up honestly....).
> 
> Dagwall....we aren't technically skipping levels, I'd have to qualify on the Saturday of the trial at "Started" level, and if she passes that we can move up to Advanced on the Sunday. We don't have to have our Designated Odor Test to be in the trial I don't believe, but if I recall correctly, we are going to have that on the last day of our classes for Wintergreen. If I find out we have to have the Pine DOT I'll see if I can get a session with the trainer (she's qualified to do DOTs), and see about Pine. I figured adding a new odor wouldn't be too hard....I'm always worried I'll mess something up because of something I haven't thought of, and since I'm fairly new to this I figured it could be possible for me to overlook something.


Yeah NACSW is much more structured and strict. Nothing is day of show entry, even ORT entries are over a month in advance. And as you can see earlier in this thread the last two NW2 trials I've signed up for I've been far down on the wait list. I can't get into any local trials it seems, might have to give in to traveling for more trials. Barn hunts are still small enough to get day of show entries sometimes but nosework is too big in my area.


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## SDRRanger

Ranger had a good class tonight and did well with his searches (even found the ones under the matting). He's taken to enjoying barking for his alert and we had an issue in the last search (very close containers with only one find) of him barking in my face without being willing to find exactly where the scent was coming from...ie: it's here so I'm alerting but not quite sure which container it is in. I'm hoping his joy of barking doesn't become an issue, but we'll see how it goes. I suppose it's the same as a dog who lays down...just this is a lot louder.


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## ireth0

Greater Swiss said:


> We probably aren't ready for trialing yet either technically....Caeda just started this in September, but the trainer actually suggested the trial and says Caeda can do it, and I believe her...unless the distraction is too large, or I screw something up (more likely than her screwing up honestly....).
> 
> Dagwall....we aren't technically skipping levels, I'd have to qualify on the Saturday of the trial at "Started" level, and if she passes that we can move up to Advanced on the Sunday. We don't have to have our Designated Odor Test to be in the trial I don't believe, but if I recall correctly, we are going to have that on the last day of our classes for Wintergreen. If I find out we have to have the Pine DOT I'll see if I can get a session with the trainer (she's qualified to do DOTs), and see about Pine. I figured adding a new odor wouldn't be too hard....I'm always worried I'll mess something up because of something I haven't thought of, and since I'm fairly new to this I figured it could be possible for me to overlook something.


Yea we haven't done any work with scent yet really. These last 2 classes there has been scent paired in our finds with the food, but that's because everyone else is on scent since we started late. At home we're still just practicing using food in the boxes. 

Last night a lady in our class was sure doing a blind run would be better... so the instructor indulged her and yep... nobody got it without direction. I knew we weren't ready but we gave it a go anyway. Failed horribly, partly because of the difficulty, partly because Luna got distracted with the hot dog the instructor gave me. Oh well!

Other than that this was the first time that we were introduced to objects other than boxes to check, and Luna did very well with that. She was checking the bags/wallet/etc the same way she would check the boxes, so I was glad that didn't seem to throw her off at all.

This class marked the end of this round of classes so we start a new set next week, maybe with some new people.


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## ireth0

Just found out we'll be moving up to the advanced class tonight. The instructors are really certain that she's ready to move on but are open to watching and moving her back to basic if it seems like it's too much, but they're really confident it won't be. 

Oh jeeze! Luna please keep making me look like I know what I'm doing! (and don't break anything...)


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## Greater Swiss

ireth0 said:


> Oh jeeze! Luna please keep making me look like I know what I'm doing! (and don't break anything...)


 That's how I'm feeling about the trial now! A wee bit worried after Caeda's last performance.....it was SO disappointing. I saw the video and just facepalmed. No alert, whatsoever. DH called alert on a bin that Caeda was insisting on playing with. We're taking a break from doing any nosework for a few days now, and I'm going to start up again maybe on Wed with some container searches. I managed to get a bunch of identical boxes from work (about half a dozen). I figure containers she isn't used to training with (with us anyway) might bring out the spazzies, which might give me a good chance to try to work on the excitement. 
I will say though, I do think it has a LOT to do with DH working her, not me, that and the fact that we've done more room searches lately rather than container searches....gotta back up a bit I guess. I do think she works better for me though....

I wouldn't worry too much about Luna...I'm sure you guys will do great!


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## ireth0

Thanks! Luna doesn't have a proper alert yet other than 'HULK SMASH!'. There is a lady with a lab puppy (like 10months maybe) that doesn't alert at all yet. I think it's a lot to do with age, he just gets distracted with all the other dogs around and whatnot. They're just working on rewarding when he's at the right box to build the association with the smell.

Last class she was asking how I know that Luna smacking at the boxes isn't her alerting, and I told her it's the difference between 'smash' and 'HULK SMASH!'.


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## SDRRanger

You don't want her to smash things, and I'm just hoping Ranger shuts up lol


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## elrohwen

Not sure about the Canadian system, but for NACSW the biggest issue I've experienced is that trials are grueling for the dog. It's all day (like 6-8 hours) with a lot of waiting around. For a dog like mine who is stimulated in that type of environment, having to work, be put away, and work again all day long is really hard for him. By the end of the day his brain is fried. The oRT was much more like a class would be - one quick search in and out with a much shorter day. 

If your trials are as long as the NACSW trials, I would make sure the dog is really ready and sure of their job. Fatigue can cause all sorts of issues with false alerting and not trusting your dog, which isn't something you want to deal with early in your training. It's not something I like dealing with now and we've been doing this for 1.5 years. Haha. 

But like I said, I don't know the Canadian system, so it might be much more easy for beginners at trials.


ireth, good luck moving up to the advanced class!


----------



## ireth0

So turned out there was sort of a misunderstanding. We did move up but into an intermediate class, which isn't SDRRanger's class (they are actually in advanced). It was confusing because the classes are both run at the same time so I presumed they were the same class. Oh well!

Luna did really well, the instructor kept saying we were cheating (in a joking way) because Luna kept leading me RIGHT to the item with the scent, instead of checking the others. He didn't move the scent between dogs so if she was cheating it was by watching the dog before her check that one last. Which if she did... smart dog, haha.

And, we finally moved up to using scent for practice at home! I bought a kit with 3 scents (wintergreen, thyme, and pine) gloves, scent tin, tweezers, qtips, etc. We tried it out for the first time yesterday and she did great. She is more subtle about alerting to just the scent which is good. I think because the food isn't RIGHT THERE she isn't going nuts trying to get to it. We are still using the box we had been previously putting food in, so I think that's helping her out which I'm okay with since it's still brand new. 

Man those scents are STRONG though! The thyme you can smell as soon as you open the Tupperware container of the kit... from inside the bottle.... from inside a Ziploc. I got a drop of wintergreen on our throw blanket and had to wash it because that's ALL you could smell. It did cover up the previous dog smell nicely though...

We're also supposed to start using random items at home with the scent to get them used to the idea that it can be in anything, not just boxes. I'm not -super- concerned about that at this stage because she hasn't been thrown at all so far at class when we use different items. Once -I- get the hang of using the scent more at home then I'll start using different things. 

They're doing a 'who killed Santa' murder mystery sometime close to Christmas after this set of classes is over and I think we'll try it out! It should be fun and Christmas-y if nothing else. We missed the last murder mystery because Luna wasn't finding scent yet.


----------



## ireth0

I'm thinking of using a clicker in class, has anyone had experience with this? 

The issue we had/have is that if she knows I have the treat in my hand, she is focused on my hand and me and not searching. I've tried various methods of getting it out before our turn, but the result is always basically the same. It throws her right off what we're doing. At home during practice she's not in the room when I'm setting up so I can grab the treat without her being witness to it, haha.

I was considering using a clicker to bridge the gap between her finding it and receiving the reward. Obviously I try to be as quick with getting the reward in there as I can but sometimes things happen and I can't get the treat out as quickly as I'd like. Honestly, I'd rather have her waiting a couple seconds for her reward vs not wanting to work at all because she's lost her focus. From what I'm understanding, the point of getting the reward there ASAP is similar to the click, to mark the exact time when the dog has found the right thing.

She already has the reward association with the clicker vs trying to build an association with a marker word. I do use words when clicker training otherwise but not the same one consistently enough that she has the same association as with the click.


----------



## dagwall

I've heard suggestions against using a clicker in nosework because it shifts the dogs focus out of searching and on to you. Honestly it sounds like you are just moving too fast and she isn't fully into the game yet. Foundations are so important in nosework, part of why my instructor kept us on food for so long before introducing odor and continued to pair food and odor for a long time for a number of dogs. When you rush so fast to straight odor you miss out on a lot of the foundations of searching. Everyone is going to make mistakes early on so it's best to make those mistakes with just food so you don't build any "wrong/bad" associations with the odor. 

Possible good news for me. They just announced another NW1/NW2 trial for the end of Feb. about an hour from me. Still might not get in but at least it's another chance before June when I think the next NW2 trial was listed within about 3 hours of me.


----------



## ireth0

Yea no, she works just fine if I don't pre-put the food in my hand. It's not an issue of her not knowing what she's doing, it's an issue of me learning how to not screw her up. 

Last week I had it ready in my hand before and she was just a mess, which was my fault. This week I tried not getting the treats at all until the actual rewarding and she worked beautifully... Aside from the last couple runs where the instructors switched (they teach 2 classes at the same time) and the new one told me to have the food in my hand because I fumbled grabbing my reward once. So I did it.. and she was much worse immediately.


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## SDRRanger

I keep my food in the front pocket of my hoodie (which seems to have become my staple nosework attire) and reward by voice and then get the treat. If I have a treat in my hand Ranger is a wreck...standing on his hind legs, rattling off tricks, and getting way too excited to concentrate on anything except ZOMGITSATREAT. 

Class was better for Ranger this week. We had a barking fit when the find was under a table (but stuck on the underneath of the top) and he was too excited to understand where I was trying to help him. We did two runs of three finds and had one perfect alert where he stiffened - looked at me - nose bumped find and then sat perfectly. Jackpot for him. 

I brought his mat with me to class and in between searches worked on being sent to the mat while the dog searched, treated when they found a find (or more often for the slower dogs) and then while dogs were switching I'd release him to do a couple tricks and then send him back. All treats delivered on the mat, nothing while he's off. I found a marked improvement in his settle.

Also it's crazy how much water he drinks at scent work. He'll drink long after every search and didn't go through half as much water in agility (unless it was really hot).


----------



## ireth0

Tonight is the last nosework class for the year! I hope our financials work out and we can enroll in the next set of classes in Jan.

At least we will be going to the 'Who Killed Santa' night in two weeks just before Christmas. Basically the dogs sniff out the clues, then the handlers pair the clues with the suspects to find out whodunit! I think it'll be fun, and give Luna an opportunity to wear her festive collar.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> At least we will be going to the 'Who Killed Santa' night in two weeks just before Christmas. Basically the dogs sniff out the clues, then the handlers pair the clues with the suspects to find out whodunit!


That sounds like so much fun! I wish I was still doing nosework classes so I could suggest it.


The editor of the Welshie breed publication asked me to write a short article about nosework for the next issue. It's all about performance and she requested pictures so I sent some of Watson doing nosework and agility. She thanked me for the pics and asked if I could write up something about nosework. Eek! I'm not a terrible writer, but I'm also an engineer so this isn't really my thing. I might be asking you guys for suggestions


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> That sounds like so much fun! I wish I was still doing nosework classes so I could suggest it.
> 
> 
> The editor of the Welshie breed publication asked me to write a short article about nosework for the next issue. It's all about performance and she requested pictures so I sent some of Watson doing nosework and agility. She thanked me for the pics and asked if I could write up something about nosework. Eek! I'm not a terrible writer, but I'm also an engineer so this isn't really my thing. I might be asking you guys for suggestions


Yea, they did a general Murder Mystery event a month or so ago, but Luna wasn't on scent yet so we couldn't participate. I heard that it went over really well and other nosework places (clubs? trainers?) were asking about it to try and implement it with their classes. I think it'll be fun to do together 

The write-up sounds neat! What an exciting opportunity to share with the Welshie community.


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## elrohwen

I need to write about 1.5 pages (including the pictures I already sent in) about nosework by Wednesday. Ahh! Now I feel like I got suckered into this. lol

If anyone has ideas, share them now!

My basic outline is:
What is nosework?
- Including general description, plus some brief specifics on the "elements", odors, and titling process.
What are the main organizations that run trials?
How do you get started?
- Basic training from food through odor only and alerting, and a tiny bit about how trials work
Conclusion about how it's a fun sport, but also a really fun activity to do with your dog at home for mental stimulation

Anything obvious I'm missing? I need about 5-6 paragraphs which seems like a lot considering my outline only has two main parts.

I also need to work in how it's relevant for Welshies, since they are hunting dogs who love sniffing, etc. since it's for the breed magazine.


----------



## ireth0

Maybe break it up like;
What is nosework?- You could maybe break this up into talking about real world jobs like sniffer dogs, etc and then talk about what it is as a sport.
Benefits for you and your dog? -Here you could include some Welshie specific things
How to get started!- Self explanitory I think. You could also talk about some easy things to do at home for those who can't go to an actual class, if that fit with the scope of the article


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Maybe break it up like;
> What is nosework?- You could maybe break this up into talking about real world jobs like sniffer dogs, etc and then talk about what it is as a sport.
> Benefits for you and your dog? -Here you could include some Welshie specific things
> How to get started!- Self explanitory I think. You could also talk about some easy things to do at home for those who can't go to an actual class, if that fit with the scope of the article


Oh, those are some good ideas! I didn't even think about relating it to real world detection dogs, but I'll definitely add that.

I included a few Welshie specific things like how they enjoy nothing more than using their nose. I also added that it's a great confidence booster and perfect for dogs who are timid or reactive because only one dog is allowed in the search area at a time. I also want to say something about how dogs really enjoy it because they get to take the lead which is the opposite of most sports.

I'm trying to incorporte things people can do themselves as part of the getting started part. Hiding food in boxes or around the house is easy for anyone to do even if they aren't in a class or don't want to get started in nosework as a sport. I'm also including a link to an online supplier of odors and things as a reference.

It's try to know how much to write, because her publisher software doesn't give page numbers. I'd rather write too much and edit it way back than write too little though.


----------



## ireth0

So apparently we have another class next week still! Yay!

I was very happy with Luna this week again. She started goofing off a little toward the end, but that was okay. I've learned that 4ish finds is her limit and then her brain goes wonky, she does the same behaviour at home if I try to do too many in a row.

Prior to the brain wonk she was doing so well. We even did a couple blind finds and there was no question. 

There was mention of if I want to trial I'll have to reign her destructiveness in or we'll lose points. She is normally okay but she does sometimes slam something a bit too hard and send it flying, haha. I'm not sure if I care enough to work on fixing it. This is just something we're doing for fun and bonding, I'd like to try out trialing for fun but it's not like I need her to be the very best at nosework like no one ever was, you know? If fixing her stumbling through stuff occasionally means introducing corrections and making it less fun for her then to me it's kind of counterproductive to why we're doing it at all in the first place. 

It's not a situation where she's false alerting (but I guess I can see how spectators might see it as that), she just isn't aware of her own strength sometimes and runs into/over things. Sometimes when she touches something with a paw her paw like goes through it and smashes open the container, where another dog could do the same 'paw on box' thing and doesn't move the box at all. -I- can tell the difference between an alert and just her smashy smashy, but it would be hard to make that differentiation to a judge I think, haha.

Maybe I'll try to look up some exercises to help her become more self aware.


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## elrohwen

Finished my article! Yay! I let my dad choose the pictures he liked best, since he took them, and I'll send in my draft today. It's about 1 1/3 pages in Word, so hopefully that's more than enough to fill 1 1/2 pages in the magazine.


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## Laurelin

We did nosework in pouring rain a couple weeks ago. It was interesting to see the dogs really utilize the water to find the odor. They all went scentig opposite the direction of flow. 

Summer even did a search of a soccer field with a couple standing inches of water on most of it!

We looked like we had been dunked in a pool afterwards.


----------



## ireth0

Had our last nosework class of the season last night. Luna was stellar, I couldn't have asked more of her. She was all 'bam!' right to the article and alerting with confidence every time. 

We did a blind find in another room at the end that she didn't find the article right away and I had to direct a bit, but once she got a whiff she was like 'Oh! Duh!' and alerted like she should. That one I blame mostly on a new room and it being at the end, she'd already done a few searches before so I imagine her brain was getting a bit fried. But it's okay! I still count it as a win that she knew what to do once she got the smell, and her performance the rest of the night was just fantastic. I was so glad we ended on a good note.

Next week is 'Who Killed Santa' night which is going to be just for fun and no training. Hopefully we'll be able to continue classes in the new year but we'll just have to see how it goes. My mom dropped off some new articles for us to practice with at home so we'll keep up our training regardless.


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## ireth0

Next set of classes start next week!

I have been lax on our training over the holidays but we are practicing every day this week to get back into fighting shape, haha.


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## dagwall

Submitted our entry to the February NW2 trial. Fingers crossed we aren't wait listed again. Next close trial we can try for is in April, entries probably open for that one mid Feb/early March.


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## SDRRanger

Nosework classes start back next Monday (as Ireth0 said lol) and by that time I'll be more comfortable leaving the pups alone with mum while Ranger and I get some one-on-one time. Now to dig out the boxes and have a few run throughs. Apparently there is going to be a trial this spring and I'd like to have him going well enough to enter.


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## Laurelin

We did a cool search a few weeks ago where we hung Christmas ornaments and drilled holes in them (they were cheap) and put the odor inside them. Thought it was cool.


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## dagwall

Happy dance! Just got the email confirming I got into the NW2 trial at the end of Feb. Almost a year after our NW1 trial we finally make it into a NW2 trial. Jubel has been doing pretty well recently, fingers crossed he keeps it up and we do well at the trial. Get my check in the mail this weekend.


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## ireth0

dagwall said:


> Happy dance! Just got the email confirming I got into the NW2 trial at the end of Feb. Almost a year after our NW1 trial we finally make it into a NW2 trial. Jubel has been doing pretty well recently, fingers crossed he keeps it up and we do well at the trial. Get my check in the mail this weekend.


Yay that's so exciting! 

Luna blew me away at out first class back last night. I was sick with some sort of stomach flu over the holiday break so I wasn't able to practice with her for over a week. When I finally -was- able to do it again it seemed like she had forgotten the game and didn't know what she was supposed to do. (plus we had foxes coming by our backyard, cats deciding to come in the room right when I let Luna back in to search... it just wasn't working) I was stressing about it and then decided on reverting back to boxes with scent + food to hopefully rebuild her association and remember the game.

Well, apparently it paid off, because she rocked at class. We did some regular article searches and she was bang on, people were accusing us of cheating (jokingly) by watching the other dogs go first, so they sent us off to a corner and moved the articles around... and Luna still nailed it.

They also set up a mock-office search with desks and chairs and articles like laptop bags and etc in another room, which was a blind search for us handlers, and I was told had 2 finds. She found the wintergreen but I dismissed it because it wasn't her usual alert, then the people monitoring told me she was right so I took her back and rewarded. We went around to find the 2nd find, and then one of the men monitoring said "Is she on thyme yet?" Which she isn't... lol. So they told me where the 2nd find was and I took her to that area to see if she would indicate... and she did.

I keep being told I have to trial her in the spring, and probably will at least give it a shot provided nothing comes up in that time.


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## mudypony

Don't want to hijack the thread, but I was wondering if anyone knows anyone who offers nosework classes in the Southeast Michigan area. I think my dog would absolutely love this but am having trouble finding a place that even offers nosework.

Thanks so much!


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## kadylady

mudypony said:


> Don't want to hijack the thread, but I was wondering if anyone knows anyone who offers nosework classes in the Southeast Michigan area. I think my dog would absolutely love this but am having trouble finding a place that even offers nosework.
> 
> Thanks so much!


PM me, I can probably help!


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## elrohwen

Dagwall, that is so exciting! Good luck with the NW2!


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Dagwall, that is so exciting! Good luck with the NW2!


Thanks. And of course the close trial in April has sign ups at the end of Jan. I'll probably try and get into that one too as a second chance at NW2 in case we don't title. Odds are I'll be on the waiting list anyways but when trials come up less than 2 hours from me I pretty much have to sign up. If we actually get our NW2 title in Feb. AND get into the April trial I'm sure there will be someone on the wait list happy to take our spot.


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## dagwall

Well we got into the April trial as well haha. Really hoping we title in the February trial because it's closer. They don't tell you where the location is other than a general city so it could be 30 minutes closer or farther depending where it actually is. Charlottesville the city is about 2 hours from me, the trial could be 1.5-2.5 hours from me. Got that surprise with the NW1 trial last year. Goochland is 1.5 hours, the trial site was 2 hours away. February trial is an hour away so plus or minus 30 minutes is less of a big deal. 

Nosework trials are such a long day I don't want to drive too far both ways on top of trial time. Charlottesville is also a college town having an event that weekend so finding a hotel is going to be more expensive. So yeah...fingers crossed for February trial.


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## dagwall

Jubel did AWESOME today at his NW2 trial and earned his title. Like his NW1 trial he wasn't the fastest but we found all the hides with no faults. His alerts were great which is a huge deal for him. So proud of him today. 

The first interior search he was all over the place and really distracted by the wet floors but he got it together and found the hide and gave a solid alert. The second interior search he rocked, ran to the far side of the room sniff, sniff bam! Alerted in 19.96 seconds. Containers and exteriors he did really well on too, not super fast but he worked well and gave solid alerts. Vehicles last and he again started a little distracted, wanted to go say hi to the people but got him focused on searching pretty easy and found both hides without too much trouble. 

One of my trainers was one of the judges, Jubel did great on the elements he was judging (containers and exteriors) and earned pronounced. Probably in part because the knows Jubel and knew how great he did with those alerts. The other judge got to see the distracted Jubel but she did make some nice comments about his searching and my handling. 

Weather worked out pretty well. Snowed on Saturday, freezing rain overnight. Thankfully the precipitation was done and we didn't have to deal with rain. We did have 2-3 inches of slush on the ground but nothing nice water proof boots couldn't overcome. 

NW3 next but that will be a long way down the line. Not knowing how many hides there are and having to clear possibly empty search areas is beyond us right now. One of my trainers did talk about practicing blank search areas soon so we will see.


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## ireth0

Yay! Congrats to you and Jubel, that's awesome.


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## Finkie_Mom

Way to go Jubel!!!! That's amazing


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## elrohwen

That's awesome! Good work, Jubel!


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## dagwall

Argggg... the results from Sunday still aren't posted online, Saturday's trail results were up on Monday. Yes I am that person who loves to look over everyone's times and compare. I'm still ecstatic about how well Jubel did and seeing times for everyone isn't going to change any of that but still.... I WANNA SEE IT!


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## SDRRanger

Ranger is doing well each week working with thyme and wintergreen. We're learning to sit for alert and his frustration barking (when he can smell the find but isn't exactly sure where it is). Hoping to complete his DOT for thyme and trial sometime this year.


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## ireth0

Luna rocked it last night in class. We did a perimeter search for the first time with articles on the floor in the middle that could have been a distraction... and it was like she knew exactly what to do without us ever having done it before. I only had to bring her back maybe once or twice in all the runs but for the most part she was on a loose leash searching on her own. She even made a point of checking the garbage and recycling cans that were around.

Super proud, fantastic way to finish up our last class of this set. On to a new set next week!


----------



## SDRRanger

ireth0 said:


> Luna rocked it last night in class. We did a perimeter search for the first time with articles on the floor in the middle that could have been a distraction... and it was like she knew exactly what to do without us ever having done it before. I only had to bring her back maybe once or twice in all the runs but for the most part she was on a loose leash searching on her own. She even made a point of checking the garbage and recycling cans that were around.
> 
> Super proud, fantastic way to finish up our last class of this set. On to a new set next week!


She did super last night...and totally blew past the hot dog food distraction in the last search lol. 

****

Ranger had a good class last night. We had less barking during our searches and he sat a couple times without even looking at me first. The last search with food distraction was harder for him as he didn't understand why the hot dogs weren't something he should go for...and we did do a little walking with him moving laterally to keep his eyes on the hot dogs lol. He did really well settling between classes which was great as I had brought Maisy (remaining foster puppy) to hang out in her crate. Maisy was a superstar with minimal whining and slept most of the time.


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## dagwall

SDRRanger said:


> She did super last night...and totally blew past the hot dog food distraction in the last search lol.
> 
> ****
> 
> Ranger had a good class last night. We had less barking during our searches and he sat a couple times without even looking at me first. The last search with food distraction was harder for him as he didn't understand why the hot dogs weren't something he should go for...and we did do a little walking with him moving laterally to keep his eyes on the hot dogs lol. He did really well settling between classes which was great as I had brought Maisy (remaining foster puppy) to hang out in her crate. Maisy was a superstar with minimal whining and slept most of the time.


Are the food distractions in your classes something the dog could actually get if they tried? For NACSW trials and I'd assume every ones training the food distractions are smell only but not accessible. Such as closed inside a container. If the dogs could actually get to the food distractions it would be self rewarding and very hard to discourage. Being inaccessible the dog may try and work the hide, maybe even alert and try and get paid but that works to teach them they only get paid for finding odor. So in our training they are allowed to sniff and do whatever with the food distraction hides (other than attempt to break into the container/bag). Really you want to see them work the food distractions so you can see the differences between them on odor and on food, most dogs look different while working food vs. odor. 

Just curious about the differences between the US and Canadian versions of nosework. I find it interesting.


----------



## ireth0

dagwall said:


> Are the food distractions in your classes something the dog could actually get if they tried? For NACSW trials and I'd assume every ones training the food distractions are smell only but not accessible. Such as closed inside a container. If the dogs could actually get to the food distractions it would be self rewarding and very hard to discourage. Being inaccessible the dog may try and work the hide, maybe even alert and try and get paid but that works to teach them they only get paid for finding odor. So in our training they are allowed to sniff and do whatever with the food distraction hides (other than attempt to break into the container/bag). Really you want to see them work the food distractions so you can see the differences between them on odor and on food, most dogs look different while working food vs. odor.
> 
> Just curious about the differences between the US and Canadian versions of nosework. I find it interesting.


Yes, they are supposed to be inaccessible in sealed containers with smell only.

However... Luna smash. I am pretty confident unless you duck taped the lid on the container she would find a way to get it open. Because of that I try to get her away from the food distractions before she finds a way to smash them open.


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## ireth0

DOT Testing April 11th and a trial in June!


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## dagwall

In case anyone is interested. Photos from Jubel's NW2 trial. All his pictures are 887-952, this photographer took a lot of pictures which I'm happy about. I'm going to have to actually buy some of these haha. 

901-908 are Jubel alerting and my "Alert" blank stare until they say yes and I can reward and say "finish"

920-932 is the first exterior hide
942-952 is the second exterior hide. 

Woman sitting on the bench in the background is someone from my travel classes. Looks like she was recording, I'll have to ask her is she can send me video next time I see her. She might have been official videographer for the trial and in that case the answer is no.


----------



## ireth0

dagwall said:


> In case anyone is interested. Photos from Jubel's NW2 trial. All his pictures are 887-952, this photographer took a lot of pictures which I'm happy about. I'm going to have to actually buy some of these haha.
> 
> 901-908 are Jubel alerting and my "Alert" blank stare until they say yes and I can reward and say "finish"
> 
> 920-932 is the first exterior hide
> 942-952 is the second exterior hide.
> 
> Woman sitting on the bench in the background is someone from my travel classes. Looks like she was recording, I'll have to ask her is she can send me video next time I see her. She might have been official videographer for the trial and in that case the answer is no.


Yay Jubel! The photos look great, I'd be tempted to get prints too.

Found out our possible trial has been postponed until the fall. Boo.

But! We have DOT testing on the 11th!


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## dagwall

Oh yeah. Tripod Ridgeback starts at 1830. She was a really cool dog. Hung out with her a bit while waiting for our turn to search again. Broken leg as a puppy that was set wrong and ended up having to amputate. 

And looking through the rest of the pictures I find Vehicle searches, forgot they took pictures there too. Jubel's start at 2331. I kinda love 2345, searching, searching, notices the photographer, searching, searching. Little side eyed look to the camera mid sniff.


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## ireth0

DOT Testing on Saturday. 

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


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## dagwall

Good luck at your DOT! Assuming they are set up similar to our ORTs you should do fine. They want people to pass and set it up to be simple, does the dog understand the game and can they detect said odor. 

We messed up at our second ORT on clove (level 3 scent) because I was over eager and called alert at the first sign of any interest, thankfully clove was first and anise (level 2 scent) was second. Took my time with anise to avoid false alerting. We are signed up to do clove again in June. I'm thinking I MIGHT try and get into an NW3 trial in December just to see how we do knowing that NW3 is hard and we may not be ready for it yet.


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## ireth0

We passed all 3 DOT's! So proud of my girl. 

She totally aced each test, no knocking stuff around at all, and she was very on task. I wasn't hesitant at all about her alerts. For wintergreen and pine she alerted right away as soon as she found the right box, for thyme she went around all the boxes once and then went back to the right one to alert. 

She also did really well settling in the crate between tests, the day couldn't have gone better.


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## dagwall

Way to go Luna, knew you'd do well.


----------



## Laurelin

Is DOT the UKC version?

So I started Hank on odor a few weeks ago. He's had 3 sessions and is totally rocking it. We used straight odor and no food from the get go. It's been interesting. I have not noticed a difference in how well he took to it versus the dogs started on food.


----------



## Alla

Hi! I'm gonna "hijack" the thread a bit and ask a question...

I started Porsche on looking for treats in boxes. Currently they are right side up and all open, on one floor but in multiple "rooms" (we have a fully open concept layout, so rooms means different coloured floor lol). I notice that the first hide she will do with crazy enthusiasm, tail wagging, jumping around from one box to another. The second hide is more toned down but she is still trotting around. The third, fourth, and onwards - she's walking around calmly, kind of in a meh fashion, not really trying. 

Why could such a sudden change in excitement be? I am making a big deal out of her finding the treat, and being excited and trying to keep her interested as well. Just not sure what I'm doing wrong here. I've tried all sorts of different treats, including very high-value ones.


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## ireth0

Laurelin said:


> Is DOT the UKC version?


I do not know! Anyone more knowledgeable?



Alla said:


> Hi! I'm gonna "hijack" the thread a bit and ask a question...
> 
> I started Porsche on looking for treats in boxes. Currently they are right side up and all open, on one floor but in multiple "rooms" (we have a fully open concept layout, so rooms means different coloured floor lol). I notice that the first hide she will do with crazy enthusiasm, tail wagging, jumping around from one box to another. The second hide is more toned down but she is still trotting around. The third, fourth, and onwards - she's walking around calmly, kind of in a meh fashion, not really trying.
> 
> Why could such a sudden change in excitement be? I am making a big deal out of her finding the treat, and being excited and trying to keep her interested as well. Just not sure what I'm doing wrong here. I've tried all sorts of different treats, including very high-value ones.


It depends on your individual dog, but for our practices at home I generally don't do more than 3 hides in a session. 1) To keep her interested, I want her wanting to do more, not getting bored with it. 2) nosework is a very mentally tiring game, and I don't want to burn her out doing too much at once. 

In class we may do more than that, but we rotate through all the dogs, so she might have a +-10min break between turns, instead of going repeatedly again and again.

If we were going to do multiple practice sessions at home in a day I would space them out, so maybe do 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening.


----------



## dagwall

Laurelin said:


> Is DOT the UKC version?
> 
> So I started Hank on odor a few weeks ago. He's had 3 sessions and is totally rocking it. We used straight odor and no food from the get go. It's been interesting. I have not noticed a difference in how well he took to it versus the dogs started on food.


While NACSW is present in areas of Canada I get the impression most of the Canadians on this forum doing nosework are doing Sporting Detection Dog Association (SDDA) nosework. Their odors are different and probably have slightly different rules (I haven't really looked into it myself). I don't know anything about how UKC nosework is run.


----------



## ireth0

dagwall said:


> While NACSW is present in areas of Canada I get the impression most of the Canadians on this forum doing nosework are doing Sporting Detection Dog Association (SDDA) nosework. Their odors are different and probably have slightly different rules (I haven't really looked into it myself). I don't know anything about how UKC nosework is run.


Yes! On out DOT certificates it says SDDA.


----------



## Alla

> It depends on your individual dog, but for our practices at home I generally don't do more than 3 hides in a session. 1) To keep her interested, I want her wanting to do more, not getting bored with it. 2) nosework is a very mentally tiring game, and I don't want to burn her out doing too much at once.


That makes sense, I love the 3x idea in general.  Thank you! I'll try that and see how it goes.


----------



## ireth0

Alla said:


> That makes sense, I love the 3x idea in general.  Thank you! I'll try that and see how it goes.


It's a very convenient number because we have 3 scents currently for class, so I can do one round of each, haha.

Luna was stellar in our class last night. She settled beautifully between turns (didn't even get up from a down on several instances where there was otherwise commotion going on in the room), and on our turns she rocked it. 

In class we're working on pinpointing which object when there are many objects close together. Luna doesn't naturally tend toward nose touches, even though I know that's 'preferred' method of pinpointing. But she did an awesome job pawing the correct object. She did knock around a bit (darn tricks class is supposed to be HELPING with body awareness, lol), but other times she was like "BAM! Here is my paw on the thing! *looks for reward*"

I was super happy with how she worked.


----------



## Laurelin

I didn't even think about Canada having a different organization. 

Hank starts on Sunday in intro to odor class! Saturday we have agility then lure course practice then nosework on sunday. Gonna be busy!


----------



## Laurelin

Hank's first time on boxes. lol How do you know if you have done a lot of shaping?


----------



## dagwall

Haha, I love Hank!


----------



## ireth0

Laurelin said:


> Hank's first time on boxes. lol How do you know if you have done a lot of shaping?


At least when your dog does that the boxes don't get demolished! Haha!


----------



## Laurelin

Hank did his first class! He was a bit distracted by the instructor- makes snese we have never searched with other people before so he was like WTF a PERSON on the course!? PET ME! LOVE ME!

lol

But other than that he was on par with the other dogs who have been doing classes for 12+ weeks now and did really well! Yay my training held up!

He did decide he didn't want my freeze dried chicken though. It was the funniest thing. He got a hot dog one search and the next I tried to give him the chicken. He just looked at me like 'WTF you have GOT to be kidding me!' and refused it till we gave him a hotdog. Jerk.


----------



## ireth0

You go Hank!

We are now confirmed for a working seminar in June in western town! Hehehe! SDRRanger posted a pic from last year I believe. We will be doing outdoor detection (in the woods), exterior searches (around the buildings), vehicle searches, and possibly some air scenting if there's time.

Very excited!


----------



## pawsaddict

I apologize if this has already been covered in this thread, but I am really wanting to try some nosework with Marley. I have been waiting and waiting (and WAITING!) for the only training centre in my area that teaches nosework to have a novice class on a weekend and I'm just not having any luck, so I feel like it's time to take matters into my own hands and try it at home. So what are the do's and don'ts with novice training at home? How did you all start out? Ideally, I would like to do practice at home until we are able to take the class, so I don't want to teach her the wrong way and set her up for a lot of confusion down the road...


----------



## elrohwen

pawsaddict said:


> I apologize if this has already been covered in this thread, but I am really wanting to try some nosework with Marley. I have been waiting and waiting (and WAITING!) for the only training centre in my area that teaches nosework to have a novice class on a weekend and I'm just not having any luck, so I feel like it's time to take matters into my own hands and try it at home. So what are the do's and don'ts with novice training at home? How did you all start out? Ideally, I would like to do practice at home until we are able to take the class, so I don't want to teach her the wrong way and set her up for a lot of confusion down the road...


Most nosework instructors will start with finding food in boxes. Super easy at first, some food in an open box, and then build up to boxes kind of stacked on top of each other so the dog has to push through to get to the food. The dog should be able to self-reward and grab the food, it shouldn't be out of reach or inside a closed container.

Next they start pairing the odor with the food so the dog starts to associate finding that odor with getting the food right next to it, and you will reward from you hand as close as you can get to the odor (like cupped hand right over the odor container). Then you start doing the odor by itself, and move on from there.

Lots of classes will do 6-12 weeks of just searching for food, or 6 weeks of food and 6 of food plus odor. Those steps should be very doable on your own.


----------



## pawsaddict

elrohwen said:


> Most nosework instructors will start with finding food in boxes. Super easy at first, some food in an open box, and then build up to boxes kind of stacked on top of each other so the dog has to push through to get to the food. The dog should be able to self-reward and grab the food, it shouldn't be out of reach or inside a closed container.
> 
> Next they start pairing the odor with the food so the dog starts to associate finding that odor with getting the food right next to it, and you will reward from you hand as close as you can get to the odor (like cupped hand right over the odor container). Then you start doing the odor by itself, and move on from there.
> 
> Lots of classes will do 6-12 weeks of just searching for food, or 6 weeks of food and 6 of food plus odor. Those steps should be very doable on your own.


Awesome! Thanks for the great advice!!! I was reading that some people throw out the boxes after they have been used so that the dog doesn't get confused by multiple scents. Is that necessary?

Also, what kind of odors are typically paired with food in the beginning?


----------



## ireth0

pawsaddict said:


> Awesome! Thanks for the great advice!!! I was reading that some people throw out the boxes after they have been used so that the dog doesn't get confused by multiple scents. Is that necessary?
> 
> Also, what kind of odors are typically paired with food in the beginning?


I would not use a box that has been used with odor as a no-odor box in another run. Keep the ones that have had odor as the same boxes, and the clean ones clean, so you dog doesn't get confused by lingering scent.


----------



## elrohwen

I just switch boxes around willy nilly and haven't had a problem. If you're using food you might want to keep a couple just for food if they are getting gross. But really I haven't had an issue just reusing them. Their nose is good enough to figure it out. 

The initially odor is birch. Anise and clove are in the next levels. You can order them online as a bunch of little qtips with scent already on them, and then you need little containers to put them in. K9 nose work source (a Google search will bring you to the site) has beginner kits.


----------



## pawsaddict

Thanks, guys! Checked out K9 Nosework Source...MUST. HAVE. EVERYTHING. Lmao.

As for the multiple scents in the same box issue, I guess I'll have to see how she does  I think I'll start by keeping odor boxes as odor boxes and then maybe up the ante later by mixing the boxes around. I'm glad I don't have to throw the odor boxes out after every use, though!

Going to give it a try with food tomorrow


----------



## Laurelin

There's a couple of different ways to train nosework. I agree that the most common thing is to start with food in boxes. 

I've done it that way and then with Hank I started straight on odor. Denise Fenzi Academy online has nosework classes and they do a method that starts on odor from day1.


----------



## pawsaddict

Laurelin said:


> There's a couple of different ways to train nosework. I agree that the most common thing is to start with food in boxes.
> 
> I've done it that way and then with Hank I started straight on odor. Denise Fenzi Academy online has nosework classes and they do a method that starts on odor from day1.


That class might be the way to go if my local class keeps conflicting with my work schedule. I didn't even think of that! Thank you


----------



## dagwall

So it's too hot outside now and Jubel has decided nosework is blah, he doesn't like to work in the summer. It's kinda funny he actually found two of the hides pretty easily but gave zero alert, I even saw them after he found them. I could tell he was in odor at least but as soon as he sourced them he just walked away with no alert. He stopped to poop and pee in the search area and rolled in the cool grass a handful of times. Just not focused on nosework at all. Not surprising as he checked out of nosework last summer too but damn he was not feeling it today.


----------



## ireth0

Western town day this weekend!


----------



## dagwall

ireth0 said:


> Western town day this weekend!


Western what now?


----------



## ireth0

dagwall said:


> Western what now?


This weekend we are doing a nosework seminar. It's in a private paintball range that's done up to look like a western town. I believe we will be working on exterior searches, air tracking, and maybe vehicle searches. Very excited!


----------



## dagwall

Have fun, I'm sure Luna will love it.


----------



## ireth0

dagwall said:


> Have fun, I'm sure Luna will love it.


We'll see about that. Right now it's supposed to rain! Hopefully the skies clear for us.


----------



## ireth0

Any suggestions on techniques to change Luna's 'show me' to a nose touch instead of a paw? Apparently paw is bad.

We're no longer in classes this set due to car repair expenses. Boo.


----------



## trainingjunkie

ireth0 said:


> Any suggestions on techniques to change Luna's 'show me' to a nose touch instead of a paw? Apparently paw is bad.
> 
> We're no longer in classes this set due to car repair expenses. Boo.


Always, always, always feed at the source. If she knows that the food will be delivered exactly at the source of the scent, her nose should start staying there.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Furthermore, if her nose comes off of the scent, withhold the food until she is back on it. Play redlight/greenlight with the food, teaching her to stay on odor. This means that if she turns to the treat instead of the odor, slowly withdraw the food until she is back on target. Then come in again. Always.


----------



## ireth0

We have always rewarded at the source, but it just doesn't come naturally for her to nose-touch things vs pawing them to indicate a specific thing. 

So for example...
We're searching... she's sniffing. She finds the thing! She stops, and sits to wait for her reward. Sometimes she paws the thing first before sitting. If I ask her to 'show me' (aka, indicate specifically where you found the thing please) she will paw it vs nose touching. 

The problem I'm having with withholding rewards is that she will keep pawing at least a couple times generally, and for a lot of the find objects that sends them flying across the floor. I may just need to like, duct tape some things to the floor so she can't knock them, haha.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Then I would get a small container and hold it in my hand. I would hold it up high enough that she can't comfortably paw it. And I would play the game holding the scent container in one hand and food in the other. Ignore all pawing. Feed nose contact. Teach it like this until she is dependable with her nose. Then gradually lower the container until she can do this on the ground. Then go back to hides. I would think you could re-shape it fast if you wanted to.

My dog is a mad digger too. I have had to do this many, many times to keep him from being destructive.


----------



## ireth0

trainingjunkie said:


> Then I would get a small container and hold it in my hand. I would hold it up high enough that she can't comfortably paw it. And I would play the game holding the scent container in one hand and food in the other. Ignore all pawing. Feed nose contact. Teach it like this until she is dependable with her nose. Then gradually lower the container until she can do this on the ground. Then go back to hides. I would think you could re-shape it fast if you wanted to.
> 
> My dog is a mad digger too. I have had to do this many, many times to keep him from being destructive.


Thanks, I will try this!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Don't know if you are interested, but here is a video of me working my dog tonight doing exactly what I described because he does the same thing I imagine your dog does! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jit4m2qHXsY


----------



## ireth0

trainingjunkie said:


> Don't know if you are interested, but here is a video of me working my dog tonight doing exactly what I described because he does the same thing I imagine your dog does!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jit4m2qHXsY


Very nice! It's great to see how focused he is! Luna would have trampled all those boxes, hahaha.


----------



## Laurelin

Hank video!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Very nice! Well done!


----------



## ireth0

Great job Hank!


----------



## CK9

I`m about to start a 6 week Nosework course tomorrow with my Westie x Papillon. Very excited


----------



## trainingjunkie

Well, we passed our Birch ORT today! Onwards and upwards! Drove 4 hours for a 16 second run. Can't wait to trial!


----------



## ireth0

trainingjunkie said:


> Well, we passed our Birch ORT today! Onwards and upwards! Drove 4 hours for a 16 second run. Can't wait to trial!


Nice! Our first DOT run was 16 seconds as well!

There is a trial at the end of next month! I think we're probably only going to enter started containers.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Good luck! How does that work? If you pass one part of the test, do you not have to take it again to get a nosework one title? I am unclear on this.


----------



## ireth0

trainingjunkie said:


> Good luck! How does that work? If you pass one part of the test, do you not have to take it again to get a nosework one title? I am unclear on this.


I don't know the specifics, other than if you do all 3 in one day you get some type of special designation. Stuff is different here, lol. 

http://www.sportingdetectiondogs.ca/


----------



## dagwall

Yeah Canadian nosework is different. For NACSW you do all four elements and have to pass all four to get your title. They have element trials as well now that are just one element that give separate titles. Not too many element trials in my area so I haven't had a chance to check them out yet.


----------



## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> Yeah Canadian nosework is different. For NACSW you do all four elements and have to pass all four to get your title. They have element trials as well now that are just one element that give separate titles. Not too many element trials in my area so I haven't had a chance to check them out yet.


Thank you!


----------



## elrohwen

Congrats, trainingjunkie!

We've tried and failed the NW1 test twice now. You do have to pass all four elements in that trial to get your title. Watson does really well in the morning but his brain stops working by the end of the day. They are *long* trials and involve lots of waiting, and I don't think he was mature enough to relax during down time and be ready to work again later. Not sure if we'll try again, just because I'm sick of sitting around for the whole trial, but maybe some day.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Thank you! Even at the ORT, there's an awful lot of sitting around. I will need a plan for when we trial. I think I can get a few friends to go, so we can all be together during the enormous waits. My dog is seasoned enough that the waiting shouldn't be too much of a bother. He's 8, so he's had some time to get his wits about him. He sleeps well in the car. Our enemy will be heat...

I've been working interiors, exteriors, containers, and cars. But I have only worked birch. Time to break out Anise.

I am waiting for my dog to start to like nosework a little more. He gladly does it, but he doesn't have mad love for it like he does for rally or obedience or agility. I hope he gets a bit more of a hit off of it soon. When I lined up for the ORT, it was like I had no dog at all. I held him at the start and tried to jazz him up a little. When we started, he just trotted down the line touching each box with his nose until we turned down the other side and found the hotbox. Then he just stopped, nudged it, and set a foot on it. Clear as could be, and very orderly, but so lackluster. Very unlike him.


----------



## elrohwen

Watson has mad passionate love for nosework. My husband keeps pushing me to do it again because Watson just loves it so much. As a spaniel, sniffing is pretty much his reason for being. I just have no patience for sitting at a trial for 6+ hours (after I've driven 1-2 hours to get there). My husband went with me to both, and we brought work to do and books to read, but it was really dull. In the second trial, we were almost first to go in the morning and almost last to go in the afternoon, and it was just way too long for him. In the morning the judges complimented his drive and speed, and in the afternoon he wouldn't work at all on vehicles. My brain is pretty shot by that point so I can't blame him.


----------



## ireth0

Registering for our very first trial on the 25th!

Ahhhh!


----------



## dagwall

ireth0 said:


> Registering for our very first trial on the 25th!
> 
> Ahhhh!


Good luck!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Good luck! Can't wait to hear all about it!


----------



## ireth0

dagwall said:


> Good luck!





trainingjunkie said:


> Good luck! Can't wait to hear all about it!


Thank you!

We're only entering started containers due to current limited funds, but hopefully we do well! We also have CGN testing that afternoon.


----------



## dagwall

Strongly considering signing up for an Elements trial in late November. Looks like it would be a 2.5-3 hour drive depending on traffic which is longer than I'd like to drive if I'm making a round trip in one day. Though if I signed up for all the elements I could and got in I might just make a weekend of it and get a hotel for the night. I need to talk to other people who have actually done an Element trial. I know we aren't ready for NW3 yet but Elements would be a fun thing to try. 

They are offering Lv2 Containers, and Lv1 Containers, Vehicles, and Exteriors. Doesn't say how that will be spread over the two days.


----------



## ireth0

What is an Elements trial?

Our trial is tomorrow morning. Ahhhhh.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> What is an Elements trial?
> 
> Our trial is tomorrow morning. Ahhhhh.


You guys are gonna be busy!! Good luck!


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> You guys are gonna be busy!! Good luck!


Thank you!

There is actually going to be a bit of a break between things. The trial starts at 9:45 and the CGN testing isn't until 3, so depending on when our turn is for the trial we'll have a pretty good gap in between. 

But I feel like it's snuck up on me and I haven't been spending any time planning what we're going to bring just in terms of supplies for being gone for the day. Tonight is going to be a whirlwind, I tell you what.

Edit: And to add to the business the BF also has to work tomorrow. So I have to drop him off, then load up the car and Luna to go to the trial.


----------



## dagwall

ireth0 said:


> What is an Elements trial?
> 
> Our trial is tomorrow morning. Ahhhhh.


I'm still fuzzy on the details of your Canadian nosework (not highly motivated to read up on it because it doesn't apply to me haha) but I get the idea from some of your post and the other Canadian nosework people that your trials are more like our Element trials. For NACSW trials you compete in all four elements: containers, interiors, exteriors, and vehicles. You have to pass all four elements that day to earn your title. For Element trials you are just competing in that one element and doing 3-5 searches. If you score a 100 you earn a title for that element at whatever level you competed at; if you score at least 75/100 you earn a qualifying leg, two Qs earns you a title. 

So Element trials aren't are all or nothing as a normal trial and can be a good way to practice certain elements in a trial environment if you struggle at them in a regular trial. The Element trial I'm looking at possibly signing up for is offering Lv2 Containers, and Lv1 Containers, Vehicles, and Exteriors over a period of two days. My understanding so far is that you can sign up for any or all of the elements and they will be set up with one element in the morning, one in the afternoon, repeat the second day with the other two elements. 

Regular nosework trials are a long day, get there around 8-9am and don't leave until 4-5pm maybe. Lots of sitting around and waiting for your turn. Some dogs can handle that and others just burn out over the day. I've been lucky with Jubel and we passed our NW1 and NW2 trials both on the first try. I know elrohwen has tried to get Watson his NW1 title twice and he just can't last the whole day without his brain being fried. So for dogs like Watson Element trials would be great just to get some reward for what you know the dog can do but can't make it through a long trial day. For me Element trials are a fun step to play around in until I feel more confident in going for an NW3 title because the level of difficulty for the handler takes a crazy leap from NW2 to NW3.


----------



## trainingjunkie

ireth0 said:


> Our trial is tomorrow morning. Ahhhhh.


Good luck! It'll go great!

I entered my first trial on Monday. Still waiting for the random draw to see if I'm in. Too much to think about!

Let us know how it goes! Have fun!


----------



## ireth0

dagwall said:


> I'm still fuzzy on the details of your Canadian nosework (not highly motivated to read up on it because it doesn't apply to me haha) but I get the idea from some of your post and the other Canadian nosework people that your trials are more like our Element trials. For NACSW trials you compete in all four elements: containers, interiors, exteriors, and vehicles. You have to pass all four elements that day to earn your title. For Element trials you are just competing in that one element and doing 3-5 searches. If you score a 100 you earn a title for that element at whatever level you competed at; if you score at least 75/100 you earn a qualifying leg, two Qs earns you a title.
> 
> So Element trials aren't are all or nothing as a normal trial and can be a good way to practice certain elements in a trial environment if you struggle at them in a regular trial. The Element trial I'm looking at possibly signing up for is offering Lv2 Containers, and Lv1 Containers, Vehicles, and Exteriors over a period of two days. My understanding so far is that you can sign up for any or all of the elements and they will be set up with one element in the morning, one in the afternoon, repeat the second day with the other two elements.
> 
> Regular nosework trials are a long day, get there around 8-9am and don't leave until 4-5pm maybe. Lots of sitting around and waiting for your turn. Some dogs can handle that and others just burn out over the day. I've been lucky with Jubel and we passed our NW1 and NW2 trials both on the first try. I know elrohwen has tried to get Watson his NW1 title twice and he just can't last the whole day without his brain being fried. So for dogs like Watson Element trials would be great just to get some reward for what you know the dog can do but can't make it through a long trial day. For me Element trials are a fun step to play around in until I feel more confident in going for an NW3 title because the level of difficulty for the handler takes a crazy leap from NW2 to NW3.


Oooh very interesting, thank you!

From what I've gathered the way ours work are; you can pass each component separately, although I'm not sure if you get a ribbon for each or only when you complete all components of a level. However, if you pass all in one day you get a special designation. 

As well, you can go on to advanced in one category even if you haven't completed the started in others. For example; we are doing started containers, if we pass that we could do advanced containers right away even though we haven't done started vehicles or interior. 

I -think- we only have to do 1 run to pass vs doing 3-5 searches and getting a score like you mentioned. It's more of a pass or fail kind of thing.


----------



## dagwall

Because I find it interesting sharing the stats I just got in an email from the NACSW mailing list



> I've been asked recently for updated statistics on the average number of
> tries that it takes to earn a title. Here are the statistics current as
> of mid July
> 
> NW1 - average 1.6 tries to earn a NW1 title
> NW2 - average 2.2 tries to earn a NW2 title
> NW3 - average 3.2 tries to earn a 1st NW3 title
> NW3 Elite - average 8.6 tries at NW3 to earn 3 NW3 titles.


NW3 Elite title is after titling in 3 NW3 trials.


----------



## ireth0

We passed! 

We got our started containers, and she did super well! Found the box in 14.23 seconds and got a 29/30, lost 1 point for tipping the box with her paw. But I don't care, we did it!!!


----------



## trainingjunkie

ireth0 said:


> We passed!
> 
> We got our started containers, and she did super well! Found the box in 14.23 seconds and got a 29/30, lost 1 point for tipping the box with her paw. But I don't care, we did it!!!


Fabulous! Huge congratulations! Pics?


----------



## ireth0

trainingjunkie said:


> Fabulous! Huge congratulations! Pics?


Not yet, I'm guessing they'll get posted in the next day or two. They're doing the advanced levels of the trial tomorrow.


----------



## ireth0

Trial pictures!

Starting the search for the find...


Alert!


And pics with the trial judge getting our ribbon


----------



## Kathyy

Ginger had her first class last night. I told the instructors I read about it here first. G is so visual I thought she might like learning how to use that fabulous nose she has somewhere.

She did good, food is her thing. She was easily fooled by the instructor and trusted her nose faster than I thought she would. Had a ball and slept well last night. Daughter said she did seem sniffier than usual on the short walk after class though!

Classmates were a couple of 3 month old Dal pups. First one's runs were like out of a training video, she was on task and loving it with very few puppy lapses. Other pup was more like I would expect with 5x as much time spent being a goofy pup as looking like she was using her nose. Instructor pointed out she really was using her nose plenty but it wasn't easy for me to see the difference between air scenting when running around looking for toy leaves and that. I did see a couple of head snaps where she air scented the hot dog in the pail though.

Very cool stuff. Hope I don't mess G up too much doing homework as there weren't any paper notes and even though I have been reading along this is all new to me.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Love the pictures Ireth0! Again, congratulations!!! Here's to many more ribbons!

I just found out that I am wait-listed for the trial I entered. #3, so I think there's some change that I will get in?


----------



## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Love the pictures Ireth0! Again, congratulations!!! Here's to many more ribbons!
> 
> I just found out that I am wait-listed for the trial I entered. #3, so I think there's some change that I will get in?


It depends on your area I'm sure but I'd think being third on the list you are very likely to get in. At least in my area it's pretty safe to assume you will get in. When I've gotten on the wait-list I've always been in the mid to upper 30s and not made it in.


----------



## dagwall

Well I'm in for a NW3 trial on Nov. 1st. Not really sure if we are ready for NW3 or not but I'm pretty resigned to the idea of "sign up for any and all trials less than 2.5 hours from me" so we'll just see what happens. Entries open for the element trials at the end of September, those I think we'd do great at, the element trials are in December if I remember correctly.


----------



## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> Well I'm in for a NW3 trial on Nov. 1st. Not really sure if we are ready for NW3 or not but I'm pretty resigned to the idea of "sign up for any and all trials less than 2.5 hours from me" so we'll just see what happens. Entries open for the element trials at the end of September, those I think we'd do great at, the element trials are in December if I remember correctly.


Congratulations! That's great! And even if you aren't totally ready, you still have 2 months to prepare. Nosework 3 is super exciting! What a huge leap from the other levels!

I am entered in my first nosework trial on Sunday. Level One, obviously. I am pretty sure we're ready, but anything can happen. Getting both excited and nervous...


----------



## elrohwen

Good luck dagwall and Jubel!

And good luck trainingjunkie! Which dog did you enter?


----------



## Laurelin

Hank and I had a horrible nosework practice yesterday and a so-so one on Saturday. I do wonder if it's worth continuing? He knows how to do it, he just seems so bored with it. 

Part of the problem was right as we showed up they were rigging up the lure coursing field and Hank caught a glimpse of them testing out the bunny and he went bonkers. But I still think he just doesn't find nosework that fun. I don't know if it's just not physical enough for him.


----------



## trainingjunkie

elrohwen- I entered Gator. I am mostly limiting my nosework time to him, although I have dabbled a little with the whippets.

Laurelin- Have you used a toy for a reward? And I wouldn't try to do nosework with a green dog anywhere near something so exciting! That's probably the highest level of proofing you could do shy of releasing live prey!!!


----------



## dagwall

Good luck to you and Gator this weekend! 

I'm simply going into the NW3 trial as we will see how it goes. Might do great, might miss on one element, or me not knowing how many hides there are is a disaster. I doubt it'll be that bad but not as confident at earning a title as I was for levels 1 and 2. We will have fun either way and that is all that matters.

I'd like to get my NW3 Elite simply because the Division Elite trials sound like a lot of fun. Basically our travel classes on crack.


----------



## trainingjunkie

We did it!


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## dagwall

Way to go! What did he place in for the purple ribbon?


----------



## trainingjunkie

2nd of 45 dogs in exteriors. Came something like .02 seconds from first. If I had called .02 seconds faster... 

5.04 seconds on exteriors. 11 seconds containers.


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## dagwall

Wow, that's great. Jubel is rarley speedy at trials but I'm content with him finding and alerting for all hides. Placing would be nice but titling is all I really want. With two faster times like that surprised he didn't place for overall times as well. Guess vehicles and interiors weren't nearly as quick?


----------



## trainingjunkie

No, we were slower in the others. It took us 35 seconds to do the interior, but where we got killed was on vehicles. That took 1:30. He got hung up because there were 3 vehicles. Odor was on the 2nd, but it was drafting through the grill on the first. He worked the crap out of the grill before trailing odor back to the 2nd. Once he got off the grill, he had it.

I "nearly" called the grill, but he could never settle on a spot and usually, once he finds source, he won't move. Glad I waited. I nearly wrecked it for us.


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## ireth0

Yay congrats!


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## trainingjunkie

Here is our exterior search where we got 2nd of 45 dogs. By .02 seconds. Should have called faster. Video is 9 seconds long.

http://youtu.be/BCKTOsAKFQo

Here is our vehicle search. I just got the video. When I posted last night, I hadn't seen it yet. Turns out, the whole hot mess was totally handler error. Gator did a great job and I nearly talked him into a false alert and I impeded his progress to the hide. He had it at about 9 seconds. I blocked him for a minute and a half! I suck. I got much better as the day went on. He'll get me trained yet.

http://youtu.be/NDJ4LCZSA-Y


----------



## Miss Bugs

we have just started classes! I am doing the class with Gypsy but practicing the stuff with Gyp, Gem and Paisley. we are learning with Wintergreen and the girls love it, homework is to practice twice a day for 2 minutes each time and we were given 2 games, the first with treats in one hand, scent in the other and rewarding everytime they nose the scent hand, and when they were doing in consistently no matter which hand and going to the scent hand within 3 seconds, we switched to "that's my box" with the scent in a ziplock box with holes cut in the top and they do the same thing as before but have to stay on the box. the girls are pretty solid now on their box, their noses are glued to it lol, next class the instructer said we are going to try to bribe our dogs away from the box with treats, to teach them commitment to the scent, I have been working on that since they are pretty solid on "that's my box" they are doing pretty good too! Gypsy is really really loving the game, she pesters me to practice lol


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## dagwall

Yep that was handler error haha. I can hear my instructors in my head asking "why do you keep pulling him back? Keep moving forward!" At least you kept your head enough to not false alert and to move on to the other vehicle.


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## trainingjunkie

Did you see the second search?

Yeah, I totally bombed vehicles. He had it! There were reasons that I did what I did, but they were all wrong! Live and learn. Never again!


----------



## dagwall

Jealous you got videos. Not an option at either of my trials. Did you have to pay for them? They did have a recorder at my NW2 trial but no option to get the recording.


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## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> Jealous you got videos. Not an option at either of my trials. Did you have to pay for them? They did have a recorder at my NW2 trial but no option to get the recording.


There was an approved videographer at the trial and the videos were 10 bucks each. I bought the vehicle search to figure out what happened. In my memory, it looked nothing like that! (In my memory, my dog screwed up and I saved the day!) Glad I paid to see it. I wouldn't have learned anything about my handling weaknesses if I hadn't ponied up the cash. 

I bought the exterior video after watching vehicles because my self-esteem needed a little resurrecting!


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## dagwall

Yeah I think being able to buy the video is new. There was an approved videographer at my last trial, done by one of the women I actually train with, they just weren't available for purchase. I would have bought them if I could. 

I like getting video when possible. It does help to be able to go back and see not only what the dog was doing but what you did as well.


----------



## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> Yeah I think being able to buy the video is new. There was an approved videographer at my last trial, done by one of the women I actually train with, they just weren't available for purchase. I would have bought them if I could.
> 
> I like getting video when possible. It does help to be able to go back and see not only what the dog was doing but what you did as well.


I agree. Memory is simply not to be trusted.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Our Container search. We were "pronounced" on this one. And half a second out of the ribbons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRn-Zdb1kqI&feature=youtu.be


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## dagwall

I've gotten a few pronounced searches but have to get pronounced on all four searches to get the ribbon.


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## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> I've gotten a few pronounced searches but have to get pronounced on all four searches to get the ribbon.


What causes judges to mark a search as Pronounced? That all confuses me.


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## dagwall

Usually the judge was impressed with either the way the dog searched, how you handled the dog, or a combination of the two.

Should have something nice written in the judges comments for the element(s) you got pronounced on.


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## elrohwen

Nice job, trainingjunkie and Gator!


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## dagwall

Had a travel class today doing containers... Jubel false alerted, a lot. I have a hard enough time getting him to alert in general and today he was all about false alerts. On the second set of hides it was intentionally set up in front of a door way with two boxes positioned to the sides knowing dogs would likely be drawn to the door and head out to the sides ignoring the hide box right in front of the door. 

Well Jubel decided it was absolutely one of the side boxes and fully committed to it. Pawed it, looked at me, pawed it some more looked back at me. Stares at me wondering why I'm not giving him treats, sits down and continues to stare, even gives me a bark. He had sniffed the actual hide box each time he passed it just kept going to the side boxes and flipping then over. What was funny is that the trainer hadn't ever heard Jubel bark so he was shocked over it. I had to set him straight about Jubel's whiny bitch stats and that he was very capable and inclined to bark when he wants things. He wanted his treat for finding the hide and I wasn't cooperating, so bark was needed.

Hoping he was just having an off night. This is not the dog I want to see at our NW3 trial in November.


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## trainingjunkie

I am so sorry to read this. Not a confidence builder and certain is a set back in the "trust your dog" category!

Might you just go back to basics? I would probably go right back to the beginning and play a bunch of the early "odor obedience" games until I trusted my dog again.

What method did you use in your original training?

But man, don't listen to me! I totally screwed my dog on that vehicle search at our first trial!


----------



## dagwall

Not so worried about that. He KNOWS the game, I'm chalking it up to an off night for now. Though I would have sworen there was a food distract or in one of the bags based on the way he tried to get into it, instructor said there weren't any distractors out there. Hope it wasn't the location. New holistic vets office less than 4 miles from my house that is opening their big physical therapy room for dog training which will include regular nosework travel classes. Great space for container and interior searches.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Enjoy that! I wish there were classes in my area. All of my training has been on-line. I would love a chance to train with other people and watch more dogs. That would be so sweet.

I am surprised by how much I like Nosework. I was only going to work one dog in it and now I have started 2 more. They are all so different. So interesting to watch.


----------



## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Enjoy that! I wish there were classes in my area. All of my training has been on-line. I would love a chance to train with other people and watch more dogs. That would be so sweet.
> 
> I am surprised by how much I like Nosework. I was only going to work one dog in it and now I have started 2 more. They are all so different. So interesting to watch.


Yeah I'm very lucky with the nosework group I'm part of. Makes up for what I'm lacking in affordable and reasonably available agility and rally options. I can sign up for travel classes pretty much any weekend, sometimes twice a weekend, and have certified nosework trainers set up hides for us. I get instructor feedback on our search and can watch everyone else and their dogs search and hear the instructors feedback. I love it.


----------



## ireth0

trainingjunkie said:


> Our Container search. We were "pronounced" on this one. And half a second out of the ribbons. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRn-Zdb1kqI&feature=youtu.be


Just got around to watching this...

Out of curiosity, did you lose points for the dog crossing to the other side? I don't know if it's the same rules, but here the rules say you can lose points for "Inconsistent search sequence" but I don't know how strictly it's followed.


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## trainingjunkie

No. We didn't lose points and the judge actually indicated it as "pronounced" which means it exceptional is some way.


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## elrohwen

I don't believe that the US nosework rules have anything about the dog's search sequence.


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## dagwall

Yeah the dog can search however they want for the most part. There are faults that can be given but nothing related to "search sequence". Quotes taken from the rule book. An example I know a minor rule violation that happens a lot is not entering the search area at the designated start line. Jubel TRIED to get a fault with that a couple times at both our trials. I'd have him waiting at the start line and when I released him to search he'd try and hop around the cones for some reason. Being on leash saved us faults because I held him back and made him enter between the cones.



> Faults: Faults are given for various infractions and incorrect calls. At NW1, NW2, NW3, and the
> Element Specialty Trials a handler/dog team may accrue up to 3 faults and still earn their title if
> they have a score of 100. They may also earn a qualifying score at the Element Specialty Trials
> if they have earned the minimum passing score and have no more than 3 faults. Faults will affect
> placements in the competition. In the Elite Division, faults will not affect titling, but will affect
> placements. Placements are ranked by score, then faults, then time. A team with no faults will
> place above a team with faults with the same score regardless of time.
> Faults may be given for the following reasons:
> o Damage to the search area – such as excessive pawing or digging.
> o Compromising the search area – A fault may be issued if the judge deems that your
> reward delivery may have jeopardized the integrity of the search area by damage or
> possible contamination.
> o Safety issues, minor rule violations and other infractions at the judge’s discretion.
> For example: taking your dog off leash in an on leash search, allowing your dog to go
> completely under a vehicle in the vehicle search, placing your dog in an unsafe situation,
> etc.
> 
> Faults are also used in other situations to ensure that the overall scoring ranks competitors in the
> appropriate order. These include False Alerts (at NW1/NW2/NW3 and Element Specialty Trials,
> excusals, eliminating, etc). See the scoring section for more information.



Because TrainingJunkie was asking about it the other day. Straight from the rule book about Pronounced scores. 



> PRONOUNCED
> The judges may ‘Pronounce’ handler/dog teams demonstrating exceptional technique and/or teamwork at
> each NW1, NW2 or NW3 trial. This is not part of the title, but rather an acknowledgement of exceptional
> teamwork on that particular trial day.
> The judges will evaluate the following elements in the teamwork:
> Professionalism, handler and dog safety, observational skills, leash handling technique, off leash
> control, speed and efficiency, accuracy, stamina, enthusiasm, clarity of alert, odor obedience.
> Pronouncement will be solely at the discretion of the judge(s) for that trial.
> The 'pronounced' term requires a 100 point score at an NW1, NW2 or NW3 trial but is not automatically
> awarded due to the score or comments. The nature of NACSW™ trials include the participation of several
> judges, each with their own interpretation and opinion on the teamwork they view in the element they are
> judging. Judges will note a "P" on element score sheets when they wish to recognize the technique
> and/or teamwork for that team, so that handlers may receive feedback and have understanding about
> areas of their searches that were most notable to that judge. At the trial end, all of the score sheets will
> be reviewed. Any handler/dog receiving a “P” on all 4 elements and having earned a 100 point score will
> receive the ‘pronounced’ designation for the trial. The ‘P’ is not considered part of your title. **The score
> book will indicate a ‘pronounced’ designation with a ‘P’ but the title will be NW1™, NW2™, or NW3™.



What does that even mean though? Searching out of sequence.


----------



## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> What does that even mean though? Searching out of sequence.


Yeah, I'm wondering that too. Maybe they want the do to be systematic?

I get why you want some system, but a lot of times the dog starts out on one line and then gets a whiff from another area and circles back and whatever. Odor does weird things. I'd rather trust my dog to make his own decisions.

For a couple weeks in class we were doing large area searches and the instructor wanted us to pick a pattern and stick to it even if the dog wanted to run off to another area. Watson *hated* it and completely shut down and stopped searching for a while. I'm still kind of annoyed that she made us do that. Haha. Not good handling.


----------



## ireth0

I haven't asked about it specifically but if I had to guess I'd say it would go back to a 'real' room search. You'd want to do it in some sort of pattern to make sure you covered all areas and didn't miss anything. I know at the trial we were shown the search area before the trial runs started and told to 'think about how we wanted to approach it' based on the layout/pattern of boxes/etc.

Again, just my musings, I don't actually know if that's where it comes from.


----------



## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I'm wondering that too. Maybe they want the do to be systematic?
> 
> I get why you want some system, but a lot of times the dog starts out on one line and then gets a whiff from another area and circles back and whatever. Odor does weird things. I'd rather trust my dog to make his own decisions.
> 
> For a couple weeks in class we were doing large area searches and the instructor wanted us to pick a pattern and stick to it even if the dog wanted to run off to another area. Watson *hated* it and completely shut down and stopped searching for a while. I'm still kind of annoyed that she made us do that. Haha. Not good handling.


Yeah it really depends on the dog sometimes on the best ways to handle large search areas. Plus the handler and how good they are at remembering where they have searched so they don't miss any areas. Sometimes a systematic approach is best BUT in the vast majority of cases if your dog suddenly wants to veer off the the right because they caught odor you should listen to them and simply try and remember where you were when you went off course. For the most part I let Jubel take the lead when we enter a search area, wander around for a bit, then I take charge and direct him to areas he hasn't been in yet. If he tries to head in another direction I will listen to him, he's the one with the powerful nose here.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I haven't asked about it specifically but if I had to guess I'd say it would go back to a 'real' room search. You'd want to do it in some sort of pattern to make sure you covered all areas and didn't miss anything. I know at the trial we were shown the search area before the trial runs started and told to 'think about how we wanted to approach it' based on the layout/pattern of boxes/etc.
> 
> Again, just my musings, I don't actually know if that's where it comes from.


I've tried that with Watson and it totally shuts him down. I can see why you would want a real search dog to do that, and maybe it's just his personality, but I have to back way off. I try to keep track of the area he's searched and the area he hasn't, and if he seems clueless after a little bit of searching I'll guide him to the areas he hasn't checked. But if I go in with a plan and try to make him follow it from the beginning, he gets really annoyed with me.


----------



## dagwall

ireth0 said:


> I haven't asked about it specifically but if I had to guess I'd say it would go back to a 'real' room search. You'd want to do it in some sort of pattern to make sure you covered all areas and didn't miss anything. I know at the trial we were shown the search area before the trial runs started and told to 'think about how we wanted to approach it' based on the layout/pattern of boxes/etc.
> 
> Again, just my musings, I don't actually know if that's where it comes from.


Having an idea of what you want to do, sure... but a fault for HOW you actually search the area sounds odd.


----------



## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Yeah it really depends on the dog sometimes on the best ways to handle large search areas. Plus the handler and how good they are at remembering where they have searched so they don't miss any areas. Sometimes a systematic approach is best BUT in the vast majority of cases if your dog suddenly wants to veer off the the right because they caught odor you should listen to them and simply try and remember where you were when you went off course. For the most part I let Jubel take the lead when we enter a search area, wander around for a bit, then I take charge and direct him to areas he hasn't been in yet. If he tries to head in another direction I will listen to him, he's the one with the powerful nose here.


Yeah, basically this.


----------



## ireth0

Yea in the entry levels I was always just letting Luna go wherever she wanted, then as we got more experience we would be directed to lead the dog in a certain direction.

I remember in one class specifically we had boxes set up in rows like trainingjunkie's video and we were directed to keep the dog on the outside (IE; not in between the rows) so they weren't tempted to cross to the other row.


----------



## trainingjunkie

ireth0 said:


> Yea in the entry levels I was always just letting Luna go wherever she wanted, then as we got more experience we would be directed to lead the dog in a certain direction.
> 
> I remember in one class specifically we had boxes set up in rows like trainingjunkie's video and we were directed to keep the dog on the outside (IE; not in between the rows) so they weren't tempted to cross to the other row.


Technically, did he really "cross?" I started him in the center so he could work both sides simultaneously. He never crossed to the outside.

Where I got in trouble at this trial was trying to direct his vehicle search! Should have just let him go.


----------



## Laurelin

We did nosework this morning with Mia, Summer, and Hank. They all did just great! Mia was so prancy and happy to be out. I'm excited it's finally cooling down, now she'll be able to come to more things. Summer did really really well too and is just hilarious.

And Hank did well. We just finished up week 12 of classes. After the fiasco that was trying to get Hank to search while the lure coursing bunny was in sight, he's done better in less distracting environments. So there is hope! He enjoys it, but it's not his favorite.

So there are a couple trials coming up. Hank doesn't have an ORT yet and I missed the chance to get him on his ORT nearby. So that leaves me wondering if I should enter Mia or Summer. It's a closeish trial. Summer is good sometimes but kind of scatter brained. I feel like Mia is the best dog for nosework. Her alert is very deliberate and she doesn't false alert like Summer does sometimes. But Mia is very good one day and bad the next as far as stamina and health goes. This will be in winter time so colder but still... not sure.


----------



## dagwall

Are trials in your area hard to get into, as in a good chance of being put on the wait list? If so I'd suggest trying to enter both dogs to up your odds of getting in at all and just have fun with whichever one gets in. I think you'd have fun and a good experience with either dog.


----------



## trainingjunkie

The trial photographer got some great shots of my dog! Here's the link. You have to scroll halfway down the page to see them. I am going to go broke...

https://capriseadams.wordpress.com/k9-nose-work/nw1-trial-sunday-september-6th-hudson-wi/9-2-2/


----------



## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> The trial photographer got some great shots of my dog! Here's the link. You have to scroll halfway down the page to see them. I am going to go broke...
> 
> https://capriseadams.wordpress.com/k9-nose-work/nw1-trial-sunday-september-6th-hudson-wi/9-2-2/


Just a touch cheaper than the photos from my NW2 trial. I think I got 8 digital copies for $50. Hardest part was narrowing it down to 8 photos because I had close to 100 nice pictures of Jubel from throughout the day to pick from. Verses our NW1 trial with maybe 4 pictures and none of them really that impressive.

Glad you got some good shots. Gator is a beautiful boy!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Thanks! Photos are funny things. I don't envy the photographers.


----------



## LeoRose

Hey, I recognize Gator.  

Leo, my GSD, and I are entered into our first UKC nosework trial in a couple of weeks. She's just entered in the PTN and PTA, but if she passes her PTN, I have the option of entering her in the actual trials (interior elements).


----------



## Canyx

Gator is so handsome and I am a little offended you don't post more photos of him! 

Can I post some very amateur nosework here?





'Eh' energy from Soro since I just rolled out of bed and asked this of him ("But... why am I going outside??"). But he did good.


----------



## ireth0

Soro looks great! Not amateur at all, he did a great job committing to the find!


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## dagwall

Yep if you trained Soro on Birch, Anise, and Clove I'm sure he'd do fantastic at an NACSW trial.


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## dagwall

Just signed up for our first element trials, should find out in about a week or so if we got into any of the trials. They count as separate trials and entries so I may get into all three or none. Level 1 vehicles, containers, and exterior.


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## ireth0

Good luck!


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## trainingjunkie

Good luck!

And thanks for the kind words about Gator! We were out in the woods with no cell service for 9 wonderful days and are just returning to the land of the connected!


----------



## BooneOEB

I just read though this whole thread!! Such great info. I have really been wanting to try Nosework with Boone. Next time I make it in to puppy class (can't go this week), I am going to ask the trainer when I can start NW classes. I am not sure if there require pre-requisites as most of their classes do. Everything I read though seems to say that they don't need much as far as obedience goes to start NW. When do you think is a good time, or a good point in training to enroll in a class? I am thinking after puppy class I will do basic Obedience, then maybe try a NW class? I think I may start doing treat hides at home in the mean time!


----------



## elrohwen

BooneOEB said:


> I just read though this whole thread!! Such great info. I have really been wanting to try Nosework with Boone. Next time I make it in to puppy class (can't go this week), I am going to ask the trainer when I can start NW classes. I am not sure if there require pre-requisites as most of their classes do. Everything I read though seems to say that they don't need much as far as obedience goes to start NW. When do you think is a good time, or a good point in training to enroll in a class? I am thinking after puppy class I will do basic Obedience, then maybe try a NW class? I think I may start doing treat hides at home in the mean time!


Yay! It's really fun!

The center you go to may have prerequisites, but there's no need to have any obedience or other training. Nosework is often called a "no obedience zone" because the idea is to have the dog lead, not listen to your cues like in typical training.

I started my adult dog in NW when he was 18 months I think, because that's when a NW class first became available near me. I'm going to start my new puppy in a couple months, as a fun winter activity for us (she will be about 9 months). Age doesn't really matter at all - you can start a baby puppy or a 10 year old dog. If you can only do one class at a time then I would finish up the basic obedience stuff just because that will be useful to you long term, but if you can double up then add NW whenever you want.


----------



## ireth0

The only thing I would be cautious of with a very young puppy would be ensuring the hides aren't too difficult, otherwise they might lose interest before they're able to find it!

Otherwise yea, I wouldn't be concerned about it.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> The only thing I would be cautious of with a very young puppy would be ensuring the hides aren't too difficult, otherwise they might lose interest before they're able to find it!
> 
> Otherwise yea, I wouldn't be concerned about it.


I think that could be the case with many dogs who are not that interested in sniffing. A good instructor should be able to make it work for your dog's attention span though.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I think that could be the case with many dogs who are not that interested in sniffing. A good instructor should be able to make it work for your dog's attention span though.


Oh yea for sure, I meant more for doing some work at home beforehand.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Oh yea for sure, I meant more for doing some work at home beforehand.


Ahh, yes. Definitely a good thing to keep in mind.


----------



## BooneOEB

Thanks everyone! I am a stay at home mom with two young kids, so have to plan our classes around late nights or weekends, so it will likely be a while until I can sign up anyways. I think I will just play with it at home for a while until we finish basic obedience.  I may even think about signing up my 9 year old Boxer/Beagle up too. Boone does love to sniff though....he tracks my husband and the wild deer movements in the woods when we walk. The one day he was going nuts so I asked my husband if anything had gone on back by my horse trailer, and sure enough his brother had come earlier that day to borrow my hitch! I have always been really interested in tracking, and Bloodhounds are one of my dream dogs, but when Boone seemed so nose-inclined, this seems to fit perfectly!


----------



## LeoRose

You can also take classes online. This class starts on October 1st, and is very reasonably priced. http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/15


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## trainingjunkie

LeoRose said:


> You can also take classes online. This class starts on October 1st, and is very reasonably priced. http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/15


I have never taken an in-person Nosework class. I did all of my Nosework learning at the Fenzi Academy listed above. I followed the program pretty closely and have been thrilled with the results. My training partner did the same. She has her NW2 title and placed in several elements and is ready for NW3. I have my NW1 title. My friend and I haven't been training for a full year yet. On-line learning in really effective for this sport!


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## elrohwen

I'm excited to start Hazel with FDSA. I did the typical classes with Watson and I felt they moved far too slowly (only food for 10 weeks!). A class is nice because it forces you to get out and practice away from home, so I will probably still do some classes with Hazel once her foundations are done, but they're really not necessary.


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## dagwall

Madness!!! Just got confirmation on the second NW3 trial I signed up for. So I'll have my first NW3 trial on Nov. 1st and my second NW3 trial on Dec. 13th. Still waiting for confirmation on the element trials I signed up for, those are the weekend of Nov. 21st and 22nd. That's a lot of nosework trialing in a short period of time. I'm just surprised to get into the first two NW3 trials I sign up for when it took so long to get into NW1 and NW2 trials in my area.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Madness!!! Just got confirmation on the second NW3 trial I signed up for. So I'll have my first NW3 trial on Nov. 1st and my second NW3 trial on Dec. 13th. Still waiting for confirmation on the element trials I signed up for, those are the weekend of Nov. 21st and 22nd. That's a lot of nosework trialing in a short period of time. I'm just surprised to get into the first two NW3 trials I sign up for when it took so long to get into NW1 and NW2 trials in my area.


That's awesome!

I bet there are a lot less people signing up for NW3 than the others as most people probably don't get that far.


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## dagwall

Kinda hard to judge. Yes they have to get to NW3 first but titling at NW3 is harder than NW1 or NW2 and then you need to title at NW3 three times to earn your NW3 Elite title. So the pool at NW3 is still pretty big. Out of the 30+ people who take part in my travel classes group (I'd guess that is 50+ dogs, many handlers have multiple dogs in nosework) only one has a NW3 Elite title.


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## trainingjunkie

Good luck! Can't wait to hear how it goes!

I am entered in 2 element trials at the end of the month, interiors and containers. Can't wait!

Also, I have just started doing real searches with my whippets. Wow! They are so different from my pit bull and from each other. It's just crazy. They love the game but work scent cones in a completely different manner. Perhaps they will change as they get more experience. 

What a fun sport. I hope it continues to grow.


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Good luck! Can't wait to hear how it goes!
> 
> I am entered in 2 element trials at the end of the month, interiors and containers. Can't wait!
> 
> Also, I have just started doing real searches with my whippets. Wow! They are so different from my pit bull and from each other. It's just crazy. They love the game but work scent cones in a completely different manner. Perhaps they will change as they get more experience.
> 
> What a fun sport. I hope it continues to grow.


That's one of my favorite parts about my travel classes, seeing how the different dogs work. Even better is with some of the handlers with multiple dogs and how differently those dogs search with the same handler/training.


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## dagwall

Well element trials aren't likely to happen. I'm wait listed for all three element trials 21, 56, and 11 respectively. It's possible I'll get into the last on, exteriors, at 11th on the wait list but that would probably be from people just not sending in their checks to take the spot they got in the lottery. Not enough element trials in this area for someone to title out of the trial without traveling pretty far.

Speaking of sending in checks I need to get my crap together and get my check for the NW3 December trial in the mail in the morning.


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## trainingjunkie

Sorry about the wait-listing. I feel guilty. I made it into both trials...


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Sorry about the wait-listing. I feel guilty. I made it into both trials...


Well I got into both NW3 trials I signed up for, really can't be upset about anything. The element trials will be fun to do but not a huge challenge, the NW3 titles are my goal so I'm okay. Yesterday was the entry for a third trial in the area but I didn't enter for two reasons. First was I'm already in two trials in a short period of time, and second this trial has been pooled with the other trial I just got into. So I don't believe I actually CAN enter it if I tried. To help reduce people getting wait listed they have been pooling entries between trials that are physically close to each other and happening around the same time. The trial entries were about 5 days apart and when I entered the last trial it said "pooled with Spring Grove". If I had been wait listed for the last trial I could enter the Spring Grove trial, since I got in I don't believe I can even try to enter it.


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## RandomName

Does anyone have any good links on how to start nose work at home? I do not have the option to take him to classes to learn, but I have a little bit of a background in dog training. I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around teaching him to use his nose because at the moment he mainly looks for things with his eyes.


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## trainingjunkie

RandomName said:


> Does anyone have any good links on how to start nose work at home? I do not have the option to take him to classes to learn, but I have a little bit of a background in dog training. I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around teaching him to use his nose because at the moment he mainly looks for things with his eyes.


This is $65 bucks, but it's totally worth it. If you wait to sign up past October 15th, you will have to wait til December 1st for it to come around again. I self-trained entirely using this class and have been able to trial successfully. Very happy with it.

http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/15

Or this as a self-study: http://www.onehappydog.com/shop/ss-nw/simek-foundation-nosework/


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## Canyx

RandomName said:


> Does anyone have any good links on how to start nose work at home? I do not have the option to take him to classes to learn, but I have a little bit of a background in dog training. I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around teaching him to use his nose because at the moment he mainly looks for things with his eyes.


On the most basic level, you are teaching the dog that scent=AWESOME. So if you start by just associating the scent with whatever your dog loves, he will start to love finding the scent. Associations start as simply as having the scent right on the ground (for example, clove in a film canister with tiny holes drilled into it) in front of the dog and rewarding for any interactions with it. Once the dog gets the game, scent=good, you *gradually* move the scent further away, tuck it just around a corner or right under a rag, and make it harder from there. Dogs who use their eyes will naturally shift to smell once they can no longer find the item with their eyes. The key is to build the desire to want to get to the item, and the finding comes naturally.

This is broken down in a very rudimentary way and there are a lot of small details and tricks that would greatly benefit the learning of this skill, and you can find those in a course such as what trainingjunkie posted. But on the most basic level, this is what it is


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## trainingjunkie

Canyx--what venue do you play in? I am not understanding what you mean by "article."


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## dagwall

Canyx said:


> On the most basic level, you are teaching the dog that scent=AWESOME. So if you start by just associating the scent article with whatever your dog loves, he will start to love finding the scent. Associations start as simply as having the article right on the ground in front of the dog and rewarding for any interactions with it. Once the dog gets the game, scent=good, you *gradually* move the item further away, tuck it just around a corner or right under a rag, and make it harder from there. Dogs who use their eyes will naturally shift to smell once they can no longer find the item with their eyes. The key is to build the desire to want to get to the item, and the finding comes naturally.
> 
> This is broken down in a very rudimentary way and there are a lot of small details and tricks that would greatly benefit the learning of this skill, and you can find those in a course such as what trainingjunkie posted. But on the most basic level, this is what it is


Ha, even once they really get the game most dogs will still use sight looking for likely hiding places. In travel class yesterday this was very evident on one search. The hide was in the bottom corner of a full wall window of a large open room. Really big room of all empty space. Dogs would catch the odor and head over to the window but before sourcing they'd follow the wall out to the corner and other wall. They all targeted the power outlets because it was a visual marker of a possible hide. There is a support beam in the room that they bounced off of as well. Nothing else to triangulate with. Most of them eventually sourced the odor on their own but a few needed their handlers to use their body positions to help guide them to focus in the right area. We were searching off leash which isn't normal for most of us. 

I'm really liking this new facility because I get to do off leash searches and see how Jubel behaves. I always said I'd never go off leash at a trial when it was an option but seeing him search off leash here I'm changing my mind (maybe). He's been doing really well and showing more odor obedience than I've seen with him on leash before. He did awesome yesterday, making me feel pretty good about his upcoming NW3 trials.


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Canyx--what venue do you play in? I am not understanding what you mean by "article."


Canyx can correct me herself but my understanding is she just trains and plays on her own.


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## trainingjunkie

I'm not sure how important this was, but I bought a "clean" set of tins and vials. I store them completely separate from my nose work kit. I hang them in the rooms where I put out searches. I stick them in obvious places as visual distractions. It helped my dogs to learn to not pay any attention to their eyes and just follow their noses.


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## dagwall

Yeah we've done training with visual distractions, tins, boxes, etc that are blank. Most dogs LOOK at them but if they don't have odor they don't alert on them. Just funny with a huge open room and nothing to focus on they look for targets.

The other week we did interior searches with containers laying all around as distractions. Some dogs caught odor and tried to follow it to a container before looking to the rest of the environment.


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## trainingjunkie

I love watching different dogs work the same puzzle. I get such a kick out of the similarities and glaring differences. Watching the whippets work vs. the am staff and the mini American is just a trip!


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## Canyx

Oops! Sorry, didn't mean to cause confusion. I typed that in a hurry and didn't check... I did not mean "article" at all and will correct that. I meant just the scent itself, not sure what the technical term is. Scent item? I know some people here use PVC pipe with holes drilled in, or film canisters... I know "scent article" is something like a shirt from a person you are trying to get a dog to find. My bad!

And dagwall is correct, I self taught Soro to find a scent (black pepper), down to being really strict with having him alert with a Sit. But all just for fun!


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## trainingjunkie

Canyx said:


> Oops! Sorry, didn't mean to cause confusion. I typed that in a hurry and didn't check... I did not mean "article" at all and will correct that. I meant just the scent itself, not sure what the technical term is. Scent item? I know some people here use PVC pipe with holes drilled in, or film canisters... I know "scent article" is something like a shirt from a person you are trying to get a dog to find. My bad!
> 
> And dagwall is correct, I self taught Soro to find a scent (black pepper), down to being really strict with having him alert with a Sit. But all just for fun!


Cool! Thanks for the clarification! I wasn't sure we were talking about the same thing. With my first dog, I taught her to find an old leather glove. I would hide it in the park or the yard and have her find it. We had so much fun playing that game. When I read your post, I assumed you were talking about something like that.

Do you have any issues with sneezing with the pepper? Any interest at all in competition nosework?


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## elrohwen

I've never noticed Watson using visual cues for nosework, but he's kind of nose oriented to the extreme compared to many dogs. I've seen him walk past a visible search container a couple times until he figured out where the odor was coming from. If he had used his eyes he would've found it sooner.


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## trainingjunkie

I really wasn't noticing my dogs searching with their eyes either, but I proofed for it anyway just in case. Early in training, I also proofed for food and novel odors in the ORT boxes before my dogs signed up for the ORT. I've used pinesol and windex in the early boxes just to make sure my dogs were looking for "birch" and not just the box that smelled different. Probably all over-kill and me over-thinking things.


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## Miss Bugs

woohoo! so we backtracked a little on Gypsy's scenting just because she was losing confidence from going too fast. she is not giving false positive anymore! she like occasionally guesses but its more like "right here? *slowly starts to sit down*" then just stops, like "ya, I know that's not it" and carries on searching lol. at last nights class, we switched to hiding the q-tip in a straw and hiding that, just to make sure she was learning the scent and not the tin lol. she was fine with that, found it every time, even hidden in super discreet places. practiced tonight with the straw, in several really weird places and rooms she has never searched my house before and found it very quickly and confidently every time. so this weeks at home we are supposed to practice dedication to the scent, making sure she stays on it while I walk away,(which after 15 min session today she is doing extremely well) and throwing in small distractions, and re-introducing the second scent. I have the 3rd scent now as well to show her too. my newest rock star dog lol.


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## Miss Bugs

ok question, how do you get your dog to leave the first scent and search for the second scent when you have instilled dedication to the scent? lol. I re-introduced the second scent to Gypsy searches and she was fine when I put them in separate rooms, but when they were in the same room, once she found the first scent, she refused to leave it,,,seeing as that's what i have been teaching her to do and all lol, I tried moving it away and she just followed it, I had to completely remove it from the room before she would refocus on searching for the next scent. she had no problem as soon as the first scent was not there for her to latch onto! I literally taught her to stay on the scent last night, on Monday she would walk away at the drop of a hat, and I was told to work on that, I should be able to walk away and do other things and throw food around her and she stays on the scent, so last night I started that and tonight there was no damn way she was leaving the scent lol


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## trainingjunkie

When working a room with multiple hides, I work duration/obedience to odor on the first hide for a while. Then I go in and reward. After I reward, I give the command, "Find more." If my dog refuses to leave odor, I gently pull him off and say "Find More" again. If my dog returns to the previous hide, I gently praise him but repeat "Find More" and do not reward. If this happens several times, I would lift the hide and either pocket it or get it out of the room but stick with the "Find More" cue.

Learning to leave the first hide to find the second is a learned skill that takes a little while for the dogs to understand. It's important to work on "sticking to source" and important to proof it. However, once I say, "GREAT JOB!!! Find More!" it's time for my dog to move on. If I was having trouble with my dog not sticking to source, I would be reluctant to move on to multiple hides until that was fully trained. It's a learning curve. Stay upbeat and let him figure it out. It's very reasonable for them to struggle with this change in the game. They just need support and repetition.


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## elrohwen

Agreed with trainingjunkie. I think it's a skill that comes a bit more naturally as they build up experience and are confident in their job. I just stop rewarding for going back to the same hide, and tell the dog to "find it" again. Some of it is body language too - if we're definitely done we kind of jump around and leave the area, but if there is another hide my body language stays in "search mode" and he realizes he's still working.


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## dagwall

None of my instructors encourage actively teaching an alert or odor obedience. Certainly reward when it happens but don't actively try and force it, it will come on its own with time. Lots of people train differently but those are two things they really discourage people from trying to do. Too much of the "law of unintended consequences" like you are experiencing now with not being willing to move on to the next search. 

At this point Jubel has so-so odor obedience (sometimes he surprises me and really sticks when I try and get him to move on) but is ALWAYS ready to look for the next hide. That is a natural thing with him, he finds the searching more rewarding in and of itself than the rewards (no matter how high value they are) and will run off to find the next hide without his reward sometimes.


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## elrohwen

Our instructor wasn't over the top about training odor obedience, but she did stress it. She wanted dogs to alert even if you weren't right next to them, and then stay on the hide until you got there (rather than alerting and them coming back to you for their reward).


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## dagwall

I mean we do some exercises like when they are searching off leash to keep slowly walking even if they stop to see if they commit to the hide and stay or follow you. That is odor obedience and it's highly praised and rewarded but it comes naturally or it doesn't. Until recently with our new location for some travel classes I did just about all searches on leash, having a lot of fun with these off leash opportunities and surprised by Jubel's behaviors. He does a LOT better than I expected off leash. Enough so that IF it's an option at our NW3 trial next weekend for interiors/containers I MIGHT do it... maybe save it for the next trial in December... maybe...


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## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> I mean we do some exercises like when they are searching off leash to keep slowly walking even if they stop to see if they commit to the hide and stay or follow you. That is odor obedience and it's highly praised and rewarded but it comes naturally or it doesn't. Until recently with our new location for some travel classes I did just about all searches on leash, having a lot of fun with these off leash opportunities and surprised by Jubel's behaviors. He does a LOT better than I expected off leash. Enough so that IF it's an option at our NW3 trial next weekend for interiors/containers I MIGHT do it... maybe save it for the next trial in December... maybe...


You are a more experienced competition nosework handler, so your opinion is important to me, but I strongly disagree that odor obedience either comes naturally or it doesn't. Perhaps we are experiencing a communication issue? I think odor obedience is totally trainable. In fact, I start my dogs off working commitment to source in the very first week. If my dogs hold, I continue to reward. If they come off, I stop. If they return and hold, I start rewarding again. I expect them to stick to odor until I either remove the odor or until I tap them and give them a verbal release, removing them from the hide. Do you train differently than this?

I find this topic fascinating and am very interested in your opinion!


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> You are a more experienced competition nosework handler, so your opinion is important to me, but I strongly disagree that odor obedience either comes naturally or it doesn't. Perhaps we are experiencing a communication issue? I think odor obedience is totally trainable. In fact, I start my dogs off working commitment to source in the very first week. If my dogs hold, I continue to reward. If they come off, I stop. If they return and hold, I start rewarding again. I expect them to stick to odor until I either remove the odor or until I tap them and give them a verbal release, removing them from the hide. Do you train differently than this?
> 
> I find this topic fascinating and am very interested in your opinion!


The closest I can remember coming to that is when we first introduced odor/while fading pairing with food. We would reward at source but slowly feeding out one treat at a time to keep them in the box with the odor longer. Occasionally for dogs who don't commit to the hide (similar to odor obedience but not exactly) you'll wait longer to reward but then it's a huge jackpot and possibly a draw out string of treats to keep them at source longer. But no, never done any training involving specifically encouraging to dog to stay at source until I release them from the hide. Which isn't exactly what you are saying I know but it's kinda how it feels to me. 

Based on a lot of the chat in this thread I know my trainers work differently. In some aspects I think the alternate methods could really help some dogs, Jubel included, others have a decent chance at backfiring with negative effects you'll have to fix later. Really depends on the dog as they all work so differently in certain aspects. I also really enjoy hearing how others work and it's a good discussion.


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## trainingjunkie

Ah! That's the difference! I never paired odor with food, so we came at it very differently. I taught my dogs to do a sustained nosetouch on odor alone. No wonder we're coming at it differently! Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!


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## elrohwen

We started with food and then paired with food, and we still worked more on odor obedience and sticking with a hide than it sounds like Dagwall has done. Interesting at the differences.

We never trained a sustained nose touch though. My dog will nose touch the source and then pull his head back to make eye contact with me, which is his alert. Of course, I might miss that quick nose touch if I'm not nearby, so I've trained an additional "show me" cue, which means to touch the source with your nose again. It's useful as a double check if I'm just not 100% he's found it or is right on it, or if I didn't see it.


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Ah! That's the difference! I never paired odor with food, so we came at it very differently. I taught my dogs to do a sustained nosetouch on odor alone. No wonder we're coming at it differently! Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!


That is something I'm interested in maybe trying in the future with another dog. I think it does depend on the dog on how feasible going straight to odor is but I think Jubel could have done that. I've only heard about that much later after we started nosework but I think it really would have been better for him. Jubel is a huge scavenger so often he'll smell odor and then start looking around on the ground for dropped food. He'll ignore odor in favor of trying to get to dropped but inaccessible food as well. At least his "OMG food" behavior is noticeably different than his on odor behavior so I won't false alert on it.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> That is something I'm interested in maybe trying in the future with another dog. I think it does depend on the dog on how feasible going straight to odor is but I think Jubel could have done that. I've only heard about that much later after we started nosework but I think it really would have been better for him. Jubel is a huge scavenger so often he'll smell odor and then start looking around on the ground for dropped food. He'll ignore odor in favor of trying to get to dropped but inaccessible food as well. At least his "OMG food" behavior is noticeably different than his on odor behavior so I won't false alert on it.


Watson is another who could have gone straight to odor. I think the food is mostly training in how to search - get dogs motivated to sniff around for something. The last thing Watson needs is encouragement to sniff around. Haha. He doesn't have issues looking around for food, though we haven't done any major food distractions (we play in my basement where there is kibble and stuff around, but he's already learned to ignore that distraction so it's not the same as something unexpected popping up). I think we wasted a lot of time with the food pairing.

I am going to start Hazel on the straight to odor method this winter when we have time. My trainer (not the NW trainer, the owner of the facility who is also a NW student) keeps trying to get me to sign her up for classes, but I said I want to try it my way and jump right in with intermediate level classes and see how it's different.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> I am going to start Hazel on the straight to odor method this winter when we have time. My trainer (not the NW trainer, the owner of the facility who is also a NW student) keeps trying to get me to sign her up for classes, but I said I want to try it my way and jump right in with intermediate level classes and see how it's different.


Part of my desire is just to try going straight to odor... a big part is even starting with food we spent WAY to long on basics before introducing odor on top of pairing with food for a long time. I got them to stop pairing my hides as soon as possible but it was still two 6 week blocks of classes on just food, the third block introduced odor and the fourth block hopefully got everyone on odor alone. Then you graduate to attending travel classes if you want to go further. It was $190 a pop when I took the classes and it's $215 now. Having the training myself now it just doesn't make sense to spend that time and money going through the foundations classes with a new dog when I finally have my own second dog. 

My biggest challenge will be motivating myself to do the training alone when I don't have a class to hold me accountable for actually doing it haha. In some aspects I will have started on food because I like to play a basic "find it" game with most dogs in my house. Just hiding treats around the room/house for them to search for, increasing difficulty of the hide as they get the game. 


On a separate note. OMG I'm excited and nervous about my NW3 trial next weekend! The hardest part of the day for me will be the not knowing. The only way you know you've passed an element at the NW3 trial level when you finish the search is if there are three hides and you found them all... or you know you didn't pass if you false alert. If you correctly call 1 or 2 hides then "finish" but missed a hide you won't know that until the end of the day. That is going to drive me crazy not knowing haha. As one of my classmates instructed me it's best to have a note in your car someplace to write down the hides you found so you can keep track. After a long trial day you might be fuzzy on how many and where you found hides on each element. They post hide maps at the end of the trial showing where the hides where, that's when you really find out if you passed or not just before they start handing out ribbons. That is going to make the day feel SO much longer for me. Thankfully one of my classmates is in the same trial that day so at least I'll have someone to commiserate with. I'm guessing a few others will be there volunteering as well, this trial site is only an hour from my house.


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## elrohwen

I think we did two classes with food only, one with food+odor, and the third started to go straight to odor. 6 weeks per class. Not nearly as expensive as yours, but they take up time and after a while it's really boring to watch your dog look for food for the 100th time when you know it's not advancing your training.

I'm going to do the FDSA class at bronze. If you wanted to be held accountable you could do it at gold (assuming they're still offering it whenever you get a second dog). I know that keeping up with the training will be harder when I'm on my own, but I hope since it'll be winter that I'll do it as a way to avoid having to take the dogs outside. Haha. 

Good luck in NW3! I didn't realize that they don't tell you if you passed immediately after the element. That is incredibly stressful! I find nosework trials stressful in general, because there is soooo much waiting around.


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## dagwall

Well I'm lucky in that I just have to get the dog reliably on odor enough to pass an ORT and I could start taking them to travel classes. I LOVE my travel classes. Who knows what I'll actually end up doing but I think I'd try and just wing it myself and if that wasn't working out maybe check out the FDSA class.


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## Laurelin

Hank may be a quick study but it seriously took him 5-10 minutes to understand his job was to find odor. I started with boxes. No food.

I really think most if not all dogs would be fine going straight onto odor, especially with the FDSA method, which is more detailed than my hodgepodge (which did work for Hank). Hank and I jumped into the classes when I had done nosework with Hank.... 3-4 times? Total. And the other dogs had been working on food for 12 weeks. Hank was not behind at all.

It just doesn't make sense to me though I know it's the 'official' method. Eventually I want him to not find food so why start with food? I do think most dogs will need more steps and longer than 5 minutes to understand the game. But I still wouldn't start on food. If I train another dog I plan on skipping straight to intermediate classes too.

also I find there's a lot of superstition about training an alert in NW. I don't see how it could give you false alerts more often? In fact don't most real life detection dogs have some sort of trained alert? I trained Mia's alert and it's really reliable. (Paw at odor) I have not really worked on Hank's alert yet. WE... don't practice at all.


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## trainingjunkie

I have now trained 3 dogs for nosework and all of them figured out the game in minutes. Never paired with food. None of them struggled.

What I don't really understand is why you would want to pair odor with food when you are going to have to PROOF for food early in competition. I don't like changing the rules on my dogs if I don't have to. 

By the time I have my dogs nose-targeting a hot box, I add food and toys into boxes and test my dog's ability to find odor. They learn at week two or three that the boxes with food don't pay. No corrections, but no payment. They learn very quickly to find birch and not kibble. I would think that would be a harder exercise for dogs that have paired odor with edibles.

I wish I trained with someone who did pair odor though. It would be interesting to watch how the work progresses and see how it's different. However, I wasn't willing to change how I do things with any of my dogs just to see how it worked. I'm really happy with the results I got from the Fenzi Nosework method. Besides my 3 dogs, I have 3 friends who also trained with that method and all of us have had an easy time. I love it.

Dagwell--- Good luck at the trial!!! Keep us posted! I just did a bunch of NW3 hides for my friend and it's tough! I hope you nail it!


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## elrohwen

I think the traditional way of doing food pairing (traditional as far as NACSW) is very crude training. It's fine for new people who have no idea what they're doing, but it's not good training and it's a long road to teaching the dog what you really do want. I wish they would move away from that. I see how they want to encourage new trainers, or dogs who are not used to being trained and who might be nervous, but most sports want people to have some basic skills (basic like, you can train a behavior) so I don't see why nosework has to cater to the super beginner. Most people I've met through nosework are far from beginner trainers and have put high level titles on dogs already.


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## Miss Bugs

I was really confused for following this for a while! Lol I am super new to nosework so the way I was taught is the only way I know, which was straight to odour. Very first game we played was holding a handful of treats in one hand and the odour in the other and just sitting there waiting for the dog to target our odour hand while ignoring targeting on our treat hand and swapping hands until they consistently tRgeted the odour and not the treats. I had no idea using food first was even a thing!


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## elrohwen

MissBugs, the way the NACSW typically recommends trainers teach nosework is starting with food. They tend to be kind of dogmatic in their training approach, and trainers who are certified with them have to go through the methods that they recommend. Basically, you get the dog searching for food with a lot of drive, knocking over boxes to get it, etc. Then you put the odor right next to the food so the dog smells the odor as they are searching for food. You also reward from your hand, and eventually the dog just finds the odor without any food.

I guess the idea is that this method works for very low drive dogs and for trainers who have zero training experience. But it's confusing for the dog when food is eventually a distraction, and it takes *forever*. I wouldn't train any future dogs that way and about 3 weeks in I was already sick of training Watson that way. I hope the NACSW changes its recommendations.


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## dagwall

The food distractions really haven't been that big a deal with Jubel. I was expecting them to be when we started and I read about food distractors but in reality it hasn't been a big deal. Sure he's interested but he doesn't alert on food distractors and his behavior when he's in odor is different than his behavior when he smells food. Pretty easy to distinguish.

I agree that the NACSW standard method is slow and tedious and don't plan to go through it all again myself but I don't think it's really all that confusing for the dogs. In my experience at least. Just slow.


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## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> The food distractions really haven't been that big a deal with Jubel. I was expecting them to be when we started and I read about food distractors but in reality it hasn't been a big deal. Sure he's interested but he doesn't alert on food distractors and his behavior when he's in odor is different than his behavior when he smells food. Pretty easy to distinguish.
> 
> I agree that the NACSW standard method is slow and tedious and don't plan to go through it all again myself but I don't think it's really all that confusing for the dogs. In my experience at least. Just slow.


I do agree that it's unlikely a dog would alert to odor the same way they would alert to food. I still think it could be confusing (maybe not for all dogs, but for some) and slow down their searches as they check out the food. I would rather they know from the beginning that food is a reward or a distraction, and never something they should be searching for. It's just much more clear.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> I do agree that it's unlikely a dog would alert to odor the same way they would alert to food. I still think it could be confusing (maybe not for all dogs, but for some) and slow down their searches as they check out the food. I would rather they know from the beginning that food is a reward or a distraction, and never something they should be searching for. It's just much more clear.


Well nothing on this earth will convince Jubel food isn't something he should search for, that's hardwired. He knows it is not part of the game and if he smells food in a container to move on.


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## Miss Bugs

Interesting! I can see that being beneficial for certain dogs, but ya can see how that would take a long time and create road blocks and confusion for some dogs as well. I am in Canada so working through a different nosework club, the odours and everything are all totally different. Our 3 odours are Wintergreen, Pine and Thyme


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## Miss Bugs

Thanks for the advise on getting her to leave a scent to keep searching BTW lol, I sat down tonight with her and tought a "move on" command, still reinforcing that she is not to leave the odour unless I say "move on". She caught on pretty well!


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## Laurelin

I think europe uses those odors too. 

Hank ROCKED nosework today! We did a travel class and were in a lovely garden area. He was just amazing. He got a couple hides that were 6' off the ground really really fast. He searches so much better on a longline. Shoves his nose in the grass and lopes and finds the odor. He's getting very fast and efficient and really enjoys the game. We need to find an ORT.


----------



## Laurelin

I took all three dogs to drop in nose work class yesterday. That was ineteresting. 

Mia was awesome! She cracked me up when we got there. I unclipped her leash to crate her and she ran off to search the search area by herself. She was soooo excited. She's really good too. 

Summer. Poor summer is just not great at nosework haha. She still just runs around as fast as possible and sometimes finds odor. She cracks me up. She's totally wild and not methodical at all. 

Hank was a rock star. He's just really good. It's gettin to be a lot of fun working him in nosework lately. We missed the ORT and trial this fall but next go around we are trying. I may look out for UKC options nearby too.


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## Miss Bugs

damn I need to learn to trust my dog lol. we did container searches in bottles and Gypsy joined the rest of the group, every time I was like "Alert??" she was right EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. I gotta stop questioning my dog, she knows what she is doing and is dang GOOD at it lol


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## trainingjunkie

I had the worst nosework session of my life yesterday. A few friends and I hit the road and set hides in a new environment. One of my dogs just couldn't work. He had been doing agility and he just couldn't switch gears. He's new to nose work, so I wasn't too surprised. However, all three of my friend's and my other dogs kept false alerting on boxes. None of the three have any issues with false alerting, so we were very confused. I just put my dogs up and quit.

I am pretty sure that the boxes were contaminated. Our two seasoned dogs kept hitting the same cold boxes. Very frustrating. It was hard to decide if we needed to work through a training problem or remove ourselves from the set up. Without trusting the boxes, it was impossible to know. So, when in doubt, it's almost always right to take a step back and regroup. I set up a dozen hides this morning with 20 boxes each and my dogs looked were awesome... I wish there was a way for me to know about the box handling on yesterday's set. I suspect that they were either used or stored with odor.


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## Kathyy

I'm still completely confused but Ginger's doing great at nosework. She's been moved up to intermediate. Last night worked on "buried" hides [lower than grass but visible] and was quite baffled but never stopped working.

Best result from these classes? Now when I throw treats she finds them. Before she hadn't a clue if she lost sight of them.

There's a local trial next week. I'd like to go watch, any advice?


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## elrohwen

Kathyy said:


> There's a local trial next week. I'd like to go watch, any advice?


Are you in the US or Canada? Is it NACSW?

For NACSW trials, there is no spectating except friends/family and they have to sign in and get a pass. So my husband could watch all of my runs, but nobody else's. Not sure if other orgs have different rules.


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## ireth0

Here you weren't allowed to watch at the actual trial (but DOT testing was okay). The only people in the room were the judge, the handler, and the person who was timing/generally facilitating. 

For us (SDDA) they don't change the location of the hides between competitors at a trial unless the same handler is running more than one dog, so that's mainly why there's no spectating.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> For us (SDDA) they don't change the location of the hides between competitors at a trial unless the same handler is running more than one dog, so that's mainly why there's no spectating.


Yep, same here. They don't move the hides and anybody in the room could accidentally (or on purpose) give away where the hide is.

And sometimes the hides are not one you can spectate. My husband wasn't allowed to watch interior searches at either of our trials because the space was tight and there was an option for the dog to be off leash.


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## dagwall

ireth0 said:


> Here you weren't allowed to watch at the actual trial (but DOT testing was okay). The only people in the room were the judge, the handler, and the person who was timing/generally facilitating.
> 
> For us (SDDA) they don't change the location of the hides between competitors at a trial unless the same handler is running more than one dog, so that's mainly why there's no spectating.


They don't move hides ever at a trial for NACSW and no handler can run more than one dog at a trial. You CAN sign up with two dogs but if you get in with both dogs you have to pick which dog to run with. As Elrohwen said the only spectators are people you bring with you and must be signed in.


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## ireth0

So I was curious and looked up the rules. 

"Besides the judge and timer, only non-*‐competing officials or official trial 
photo/videographers may be present during any search. The judge may occasionally approve other 
attendance in special situations such as an assistant to a disabled person or the parent of a 
minor. A handler may request an exception for a non-*‐competitor to 
be in the search area during the judge’s briefing."

and 

"Handlers with additional dogs will run at the end of each component so that the judge
can change the hide location but before bitches in heat."


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## Kathyy

No idea. Time to contact the school I guess. Might be a fun day, $5 a run for all the sports this facility trains. It isn't on the website, it wasn't in the newsletter, it isn't on Facebook for October 31. In November there is a fun day posted but I cannot go.

All training is outside and it is possible to watch from outside the fence. I know so little about this sport does one even trial where one trains?


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## elrohwen

Kathyy said:


> All training is outside and it is possible to watch from outside the fence. I know so little about this sport does one even trial where one trains?


Generally no. Trials are at places like summer camps (off season), community colleges, etc. ORTs can be at regular training facilities I think, but I'm not sure.

If it's a fun day then you'll probably be able to watch. Sounds fun


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## ireth0

Our trial was held at the same facility we do classes at but I'm sure it varies by location and how much space is needed based on the number of entrants and etc.


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## dagwall

Kathyy said:


> No idea. Time to contact the school I guess. Might be a fun day, $5 a run for all the sports this facility trains. It isn't on the website, it wasn't in the newsletter, it isn't on Facebook for October 31. In November there is a fun day posted but I cannot go.
> 
> All training is outside and it is possible to watch from outside the fence. I know so little about this sport does one even trial where one trains?


Sounds like a mock trial/fun day not a real trial. 

My NW1 trial was at a camp, my NW2 trial was at a fair grounds. The NW3 trial this weekend is at another camp.


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## trainingjunkie

Best of luck to Dagwall and Jubel this weekend at the NW3 trial! Can't wait to hear all about it! Sending our best!


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Best of luck to Dagwall and Jubel this weekend at the NW3 trial! Can't wait to hear all about it! Sending our best!


Yes! Good luck!


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Best of luck to Dagwall and Jubel this weekend at the NW3 trial! Can't wait to hear all about it! Sending our best!


Thanks! We are competing on Sunday. I'll post with details sometime on Monday at the latest, with at least some update on pass/fail on FB Sunday evening.


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## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> Thanks! We are competing on Sunday. I'll post with details sometime on Monday at the latest, with at least some update on pass/fail on FB Sunday evening.


Thanks! Be smart and brave and trust your dog! And all that! I am so jealous and impressed! NW3 seems so daunting. I look forward to the reports.

I will be in two NW1 element trials tomorrow, containers and interiors. The simplicity of my day compared to the complexity of your is a bit staggering. Have a wonderful time!


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Thanks! Be smart and brave and trust your dog! And all that! I am so jealous and impressed! NW3 seems so daunting. I look forward to the reports.
> 
> I will be in two NW1 element trials tomorrow, containers and interiors. The simplicity of my day compared to the complexity of your is a bit staggering. Have a wonderful time!


The only truly daunting part of the day for me will be the not knowing. For the dog it's all the same game, I simply have to make the judgement call when there are no more hides to find... then carry on in mystery until the end of the day if I was right baring any false alerts from me. 

Good luck with your element trials. I never heard anything more about the element trials I am wait listed for and likely won't. Not enough element trials being held in general let alone on the east coast to open up many spots in the trial. I'd guess most of the spots that open up if any are due to people simply backing out. I'm sure Gator will do great!


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## Laurelin

We payed nosework today and did interior searches. They all did well.

One thing that was interesting was outside the building while I was pottying Summer before her second turn, she alerted on a piece of chewed gum. According to my instructor it's not uncommon for dogs to alert on mint gum. Interesting.


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## trainingjunkie

The Element Trials went really well today! Gator was awesome. Fast, focused, accurate. He understands his job and enjoys it very much. Super fun day.


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## dagwall

Way to go Gator!


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## trainingjunkie

Good luck Dagwell! I hope you and Jubel have a fabulous day!


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## dagwall

No title today but I'm happy with our performance overall. First search of the day for us was vehicles and we found two hides pretty easily, made sure to make a good sweep of all three vehicles and called finish. Passed. 

Next were interiors, three rooms which can have between zero and three hides in each room. First room was clear (no hides) and we called that correctly. Second room we found two of three hides. Can't feel too bad about missing the third hide though because only 5 of the 28 people in the trial found that third hide. Third room was just one hide which we found. So no pass on interiors but the majority of people had trouble with the same hide so not beating myself up over that one.

Exteriors came next. Found one hide, searching and searching for any more and get a 30 second warning. Jubel had been very sniffy of a grassy area but it wasn't too far away from the hide we'd already found so I just call finish. Only the one hide and we pass.

Last was containers. They had 12 containers in a circle, like a clock face evenly spaced. They went box, some type of bag/luggage, box alternating evenly. Well Jubel went half way around the circle, turned around and circled back and we made a full loop back to the start line. Still no real interest in any container, I loop him back around twice more no serious interest. 30 second warning... I'm really doubting the container element would have zero hides but he hasn't showed any interest so I call finish not really believing it. I had a guess at where the hide might have been assuming I missed it. Once my classmate I train with finished her search later I ask her. The suitcase I possibly suspected was the one and only hide. That is the only hide I'm slightly beating myself up over. I still had about 20 seconds so I could have tried to get him to source and alert but I didn't. In retrospect I think Jubel was getting tired at the end of the day and that could have contributed to his failure in containers, who knows.

So I have the first leg towards NW3-V and NW3-E titles haha. Lots of people earned NW3-element titles (three passing element runs at NW3 gets an element title) today but no one got a NW3 title today. First place had 96.5 points I think they said. Was a good day and great experience. We'll be back to try again in about 5 weeks. Maybe we'll get it and maybe have a similar performance. Either way we'll have fun.


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## trainingjunkie

Sounds like a very good day overall! No one got a NW3 title today?!? That's grim! How many teams tried?


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Sounds like a very good day overall! No one got a NW3 title today?!? That's grim! How many teams tried?


Nope no one got a NW3 title. 28 dog/handler pairs.


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## trainingjunkie

That's just crazy! I am now thoroughly terrified.


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## dagwall

Two people titled on Friday's NW3 trial.


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## trainingjunkie

That didn't help my confidence.


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## dagwall

Haha. The jump from NW2 to NW3 is a big one.


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## trainingjunkie

trainingjunkie said:


> That didn't help my confidence.


What organization?


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> What organization?


Huh? NACSW is all I talk about. The trial I'm specifically talking about now is a three day event. Friday NW3, Saturday NW1, Sunday NW3. Two titles on Friday, lots of titles on Saturday, no titles today.


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## elrohwen

Congrats on doing so well, dagwall and Jubel! Sounds like you guys did a great job overall even if you didn't title.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Congrats on doing so well, dagwall and Jubel! Sounds like you guys did a great job overall even if you didn't title.


Thanks! I'm proud of my boy. I went into the trial thinking it'd be great to title but knowing it's a difficult thing and the odds were against us titling the first time out. It was a good learning experience and we'll be trying again in December.


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## ireth0

The guy that teaches our nosework classes just got certified as a judge!


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## Laurelin

I need to get Hank to an ORT.

Honestly, it's tempting to trial with Mia. She is far and away the furthest along of the three but I just don't trust her health to put her through a day of trialling. Summer is... iffy at best still after a lot of work.


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## trainingjunkie

Can't wait for Hank stories! Find an ORT!

My whippets are going to take ORTs in December. Hope they hold up to the environment. I really don't want an expensive lesson in not being ready!


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## trainingjunkie

Anyone have any training videos? It would be fun watching how different people train.


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## Dogsignalfire

I'm thinking Lancer could easily take the ORT in January, but I kind of want to just have him trained in both birch and anise before going off to take the ORT, just to save a trip? I might as well do both ORT's at once, right? Is this a thing?

In other news, working with Rara further on just foundation, she officially has a decisively poor nose and can not catch odor (well, treats) for the life of her unless there are at least five treats in the little box and she sticks her nose right on it. She can probably get her NW1 with further training, but she is not going to be a NW2 dog LOL.


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## dagwall

Dogsignalfire said:


> I'm thinking Lancer could easily take the ORT in January, but I kind of want to just have him trained in both birch and anise before going off to take the ORT, just to save a trip? I might as well do both ORT's at once, right? Is this a thing?


Certainly a thing. Some people do all three odors at once. I attempt to do anise and clove at the same time. I got over eager and false alerted on the clove run so had to go back a third time anyways for clove though. Wasn't that Jubel didn't know clove I just called alert at the slightest sign of interest like a big dummy.

I don't have any more recent training videos that I have already posted in this thread or on FB.


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## trainingjunkie

Not sure if you're interested, but here is my greenest dog doing containers. He is working all 3 odors. He will take his ORTs in 2 weeks. I'm actually going to try for all 3 at once. See anything I should change? Think he's ready? I have 2 weeks to work on it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP5HzfHq21w


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## dagwall

Looks like he's working really well. My only concern would be if you always remove the hide like that. Just for down the road when there are multiple hides. You won't be allowed to touch any hides and the dog will need to move on and search for additional hides while to first hide it still there. For ORT and NW1 that isn't an issue but as a general training issue they need to be able to move on and keep searching the area with other hides in the search area. Odor obedience is good but they can't be TOO sticky and not move on and continue searching.

I'm sure you guys will rock your ORTs as long as he doesn't fall apart over environmental stressors as you've suggested might be an issue for him. Hope everything goes well.



Just got the pre-trial info email for my next NW3 trial in two weeks. Happy the trial location is a bit closer than expected, only 2 hours vs 2.5 hours away. Tentatively we are 17 of 28 in the running order. One of the women I train with will be competing that day as well, two others trial on Friday, usually a handful are around as volunteers. 

I'm a bit more nervous this time around. Partly due to a bad travel class experience with a different instructor a few weeks ago. It will not "break" Jubel as the main instructor has assured me but it will make the possible food distractors harder potentially. The new trainer set up container searches with food distractors but failed to make the food inaccessible and Jubel was rewarded for going after the food multiple times. That alone is frustrating for me but what if early sets it over the edge for me is that he wasn't the first dog to get to the food. A number of dogs managed the same thing and she didn't think to remove the food distractors or move them to better containers after realizing there was an issue. 

That instructor had set up really nice vehicle searches a few weeks prior so I was looking forward to the container searches because that was our biggest hang up in the last trial. To go in and have it be a big mess was just frustrating. It's been handled and we're moving on, everything will be fine, just a set back when Jubel had been doing pretty well with food distractors. 

Fingers crossed we don't do containers last in this up coming trial. I really think that was a big part of the problem. He was tried and just lost focus by that point and containers are hard.


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## trainingjunkie

Oh that truly sucks. I would have been furious. It won't "break" him, but life just got a little harder. Did she have any excuse? What are you doing to repair it?

With my whippets, I am still working "Odor Obedience" because I think they still are fairly weak at it. I have not yet set multiple hides/converging odors for them. I figured I would wait until after the ORT to do that. I do work multiple hides with Gator and with him, it was a very easy transition. Definitely something I need to train for, but I don't think he's ready yet. I also haven't worked him with distractions.

It will be interesting to see if he melts due to environment. It's a very real possibility. I guess I may as well know. If I could go back and register again, I would do all three odors with my other whippet and just do birch with him. At the time, he was working better than my Ky. Now, she's quite a bit ahead of him. I don't life the boxes at the end of a search with her anymore although she is still working single hides.

Good luck at your trial! I am jealous that you have so many so close together! I don't even have one on the calendar yet, but would love to!

Training three dogs at once is sort of a trip. They are just all so different.


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Good luck at your trial! I am jealous that you have so many so close together! I don't even have one on the calendar yet, but would love to!


Blessing and a curse really. Most of the trials are hosted by the same lead couple and they aim for fall and spring trials. They want to avoid the heat and humidity of our summers and the ice and snow of winter. Leaves a narrow window for trials and they end up stacking up on top of each other. I don't mind the winter trials but agree on avoiding the summer trials. Jubel can't and won't trial in the heat and humidity of the summer.

After this December trial there isn't another "close" NW3 trial on the calendar.


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## trainingjunkie

You will do great!

Do you have a specific training plan that you're working right now?


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> You will do great!
> 
> Do you have a specific training plan that you're working right now?


I really don't do anything more than our travel classes. So on average one to two set of hides a week with coaching on our searches. Recently I always go in blind not knowing where the hides are or even how many. Sometimes I'll watch others search first, or just ask how many hides there are. The instructor will help guide you and not let you make big mistakes. It's great to watch others do their searches and listen to the feedback they get as well. Some of it is specific to certain dogs but most of it is applicable to most dogs.

I don't even practice at home. I've tried a few times but he behaves much differently searching at home than anywhere else so I don't think it really helps that much. Plus he doesn't really need extensive work. Over do it and he gets burnt out.


----------



## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> I really don't do anything more than our travel classes. So on average one to two set of hides a week with coaching on our searches. Recently I always go in blind not knowing where the hides are or even how many. Sometimes I'll watch others search first, or just ask how many hides there are. The instructor will help guide you and not let you make big mistakes. It's great to watch others do their searches and listen to the feedback they get as well. Some of it is specific to certain dogs but most of it is applicable to most dogs.
> 
> I don't even practice at home. I've tried a few times but he behaves much differently searching at home than anywhere else so I don't think it really helps that much. Plus he doesn't really need extensive work. Over do it and he gets burnt out.


That's really interesting! I don't have any classes in my area, so I am on my own. I do train with a friend, but only occasionally. That means I have to chip it out on my own. I train 4 or 5 times a week and I might do 10 searches with each dog (30 total) in a session. Perhaps I am over-doing things. However, none of mine are as advanced as you and Jubel are. When you were working on your foundation, did you train more?


----------



## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> That's really interesting! I don't have any classes in my area, so I am on my own. I do train with a friend, but only occasionally. That means I have to chip it out on my own. I train 4 or 5 times a week and I might do 10 searches with each dog (30 total) in a session. Perhaps I am over-doing things. However, none of mine are as advanced as you and Jubel are. When you were working on your foundation, did you train more?


Yes, I did practice during our foundations classes.


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## Miss Bugs

Well Gyp has her dedication to scent down lol. At last nights class Gyp indicated on a container, I alerted but the instructor said no. So I kept trying to get Gyp to keep looking But she wouldn't budge from that container..if she is guessing she always just pops up and carries on looking..the instructor knows that so she was like "...uuhh maybe go check that container, I swore I put it somewhere else but maybe I'm wrong" so I go to that container, check inside and sure enough the odour was there haha


----------



## dagwall

Weather forecast for next Sunday and my NW3 trial: 60º and 50% chance of rain. Not really complaining about the 60º in mid December being that I'll be outside/in my car most of the day but I hope any rain we get is minimal. I guess I should be grateful that if it's going to be rainy it's 60º instead of in the 40s.


----------



## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Weather forecast for next Sunday and my NW3 trial: 60º and 50% chance of rain. Not really complaining about the 60º in mid December being that I'll be outside/in my car most of the day but I hope any rain we get is minimal. I guess I should be grateful that if it's going to be rainy it's 60º instead of in the 40s.


Not bad! Ran sucks but at least it will be warm.


----------



## elrohwen

Hazel has officially started Nosework! We're doing it through the FDSA class. Only the very beginning stage right now so no issues. I'm excited to see how this goes, and if I see differences between her and Watson ultimately. 

My goal was originally to join an in person NW class in January, straight into the odor class, but it's on Saturdays and that's when we're doing agility now. Boo. I'll stick with agility since I can easily do NW at home.

I've also started to think about where I will do NW when we move next spring. I have obedience and agility places picked out, but I have no idea where to do NW. A quick search of the NACSW page didn't turn up anybody within a couple hours.


----------



## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Hazel has officially started Nosework! We're doing it through the FDSA class. Only the very beginning stage right now so no issues. I'm excited to see how this goes, and if I see differences between her and Watson ultimately.
> 
> My goal was originally to join an in person NW class in January, straight into the odor class, but it's on Saturdays and that's when we're doing agility now. Boo. I'll stick with agility since I can easily do NW at home.
> 
> I've also started to think about where I will do NW when we move next spring. I have obedience and agility places picked out, but I have no idea where to do NW. A quick search of the NACSW page didn't turn up anybody within a couple hours.


Well while it's nice to have classes for nosework just for another set of eyes plus someone else setting up hides for you it IS something you can do on your own at least. But I hope you can find a good place for classes. Assuming Hazel continues to be more focused than Watson do you think you'll try trialing with her in the future or just stick with it as a fun activity?


----------



## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Well while it's nice to have classes for nosework just for another set of eyes plus someone else setting up hides for you it IS something you can do on your own at least. But I hope you can find a good place for classes. Assuming Hazel continues to be more focused than Watson do you think you'll try trialing with her in the future or just stick with it as a fun activity?


I like classes just because I'm too lazy to do much on my own. We do basement hides when it's rainy and cold, but I'm less likely to get out to new places and really proof/generalize stuff without the class format. Though if I can set up one hide and work both dogs on it, maybe that will make it worth while. Two for one! But yeah, it's nice that we can continue to do it on our own. And FDSA classes might give me more motivation and specific things to work on each week.

I would like to at least get her NW1 I think. And I really do want to go back and get Watson's NW1. I'm convinced his issue was maturity. He did really well and showed a lot of drive until he just got tired and fell apart. Since the last time we tried he has matured a lot and I think he'll have a better chance of keeping his head in the game. When he works, he is really good. And I have no doubt Hazel will do well, considering her breed and how naturally hardworking and focused she is. Just gotta get Watson's NW1 done first since I can't enter them in the same trial obviously. I can't let her beat him  And the couple places they usually do trials aren't much closer to our house now than they will be when we move north, so I'm at least in reach of trials if not classes.


----------



## dagwall

Oh I fully sympathize with lack of motivation to train on your own. I haven't taught anything new to Jubel in a really long time, I've started and stopped a few things when I hit a little road block. Always meaning to go back to it and never really do. 

I get wanting to get Watson his title first hehe. I hope he's matured enough he can stay in it all day next time you try with him. It is a long day and it's really hard for a lot of dogs. I think that was a big contributing factor to Jubel not passing on containers at the end of the day at our last trial. We still missed a hide on interiors and wouldn't have titled but that container search at the end of the day still bugs me. 

Just posted in my foster thread but I'll say it here too. I'm really thinking about starting some basic nosework games with my foster Joshua. We already do some find it games at meal times and he's pretty good at it. Gets his kibble out of a dispensing toy and the 2 baby carrots he gets to help him feel full get broken up into a couple pieces and have been progressively hidden in harder and harder locations. He's figured out the game and likes it. Weighing my own motivation to turn his evening meal into a nosework training session with odor once or twice a week. Fatty fat is on a strict diet so a meal is the best option for any serious training for him. 

I like the idea on paper but not so sure how motivated I am to actually do it. I do NOT plan on keeping him and the odds of an adopter being interested in continuing nosework with him is pretty slim. Pretty sure he'd enjoy it, Jubel would bitch and moan upstairs knowing he was missing out on SOMETHING down in the basement. *sigh* I don't know. If the beagle loving lady who trains nosework with me could have more than two dogs I could totally go into this "starting" him for her, she already loves Josh haha. But she's at her dog max for her housing.


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## elrohwen

I would probably do it with him just because he's a beagle. He's made for nosework! And it would be so fun for him even if nobody ever did anything with it. Though the new owners might think it's super cool that he's a "trained nosework dog" and pursue classes with him? Though if he's happily searching for food there's probably no need to teach him odor at all. He's having fun and using his brain as it is.

So far in the FDSA they're just targeting the odor container. There's odor in it, but to Hazel it's no different than targeting anything I hold which she's already good at. I'm anxious to get a clean tin in the mail so we can start differentiating and choosing the correct one. 

She's funny because she is very good at a solid nose only touch. She never grabs at things. Very useful for this method of training nosework, because Watson would have tried to grab the tin from me or put his mouth around it. Very not useful for the retrieve. I can't get her past a sustained nose touch on the dang dumbbell. She's so cute about it though. I need to teach her to smoosh her face into a pane of glass. She would get that right away.

ETA: And they both lose their minds when I train with the other in the basement. Watson is way worse though.


----------



## dagwall

dagwall said:


> Weather forecast for next Sunday and my NW3 trial: 60º and 50% chance of rain. Not really complaining about the 60º in mid December being that I'll be outside/in my car most of the day but I hope any rain we get is minimal. I guess I should be grateful that if it's going to be rainy it's 60º instead of in the 40s.


Ha, now they are calling for 67 and 10% chance of rain. Nice weather but geez... global warming much? 67 in the middle of December is just wrong. hahaha


----------



## elrohwen

dagwall said:


> Ha, now they are calling for 67 and 10% chance of rain. Nice weather but geez... global warming much? 67 in the middle of December is just wrong. hahaha


Awesome weather!

Good luck! I hope you guys title this time, or at least put in another performance you can be proud of.


----------



## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> Ha, now they are calling for 67 and 10% chance of rain. Nice weather but geez... global warming much? 67 in the middle of December is just wrong. hahaha


Good luck! You guys are going to do great!


----------



## Dogsignalfire

Lancer and I went out to a different park, and he became anxious again... had no interest in treats or the boxes, like usual when he is nervous somewhere. It has been his history in general- no interest in food/eating, even very high value food, when he is a little nervous. He just looks around back and forth, as if constantly on the lookout for other dogs to appear. I reduce the game to just three boxes with a ton of treats in one of them, hoping he would show some interest- but he really doesn't. Or at least not properly. Occasionally with some happy encouragement from me, he will look at the boxes... but quickly scratch a random box/doesn't try to catch odor, and then starts looking around for dogs again. For the record, he is very fine and happy playing nose work in our backyard- where there's no risk of dogs. Thus, the reason for his anxiety is purely because he's on the lookout for other dogs to appear, not necessarily indoors/outdoors.

Though I think that if we were in a new environment that is indoors, and he can see the whole room and know that there are no dogs, he might do better. 

I guess I should also add that even a little bit of anxiety causes him to lose interest in food, no matter what it is. He can maintain a calm appearance and composure when we're on a walk, just going around in public places, but he will not eat food either.

Normally, the only thing that can maintain his interest and focus SO WELL that nothing else matters (not dogs, screaming children, or his own safety LOL) is playing fetch with a ball, no matter where we are or what's going on around him. 

I'm thinking about somehow switching him to ball/fetch rewards, but he also does not have the strongest foundation yet. So I also still want to use treats. I tried using the ball as a reward at one point a few weeks ago, and he doesn't give a crap about nose work anymore and just wants me to give him the ball asap... ie: scratches any box, doesn't attempt much to catch odor, because he just wants me to give him the ball. Using treats (lower value reward), he is more deliberate and slow about searching, but it allows him to concentrate at a nice pace and catch odor. Our trainer told us to keep working on just keep using treat rewards as a foundation, and we can work on switching him over to toys in the future. BUT I'm iffy on whether this will work... his level of drive with a ball is quite extreme. I feel like I'll need to backpedal a few steps with a ball reward, whenever I try to switch over to it.

So I'm in this dilemma... not sure exactly what our next step should be. I can keep building foundation at home/in our backyard with treats, but he is already very very good and consistent with this/in environments he feels safe in. But once we actually drive out to some park or a public place, even a minimal level of anxiety makes him 100% lose interest in the treats and thus he doesn't play the game.

Similar to how he was during our first nose work class in the classroom, he had no interest in the treats for about 10 minutes. But he eventually became comfortable after some gradual encouragement. I know that we won't exactly get the chance to give him "gradual encouragement" in the trial spaces during trials, which are another new environment to him... and he's back to square one.

(that post was so long OMG)

Oh right, I need to mention that the "box scratch/placing his paw on a box" was his natural alert with containers. But then he linked it to a consistent alert on his own after we trained. So in a way, it's now a self-taught alert, but it used to be natural? LOL. He will put his paw on a box and then look at me expectantly.


----------



## trainingjunkie

If he was my dog, I would work the acclimation and confidence issues separately from the nosework. I would train for nosework in places where my dog felt comfortable, and I would go and play, hang out, and experience new places independently of the work.

If you try to combine "conquering of fears" and "nosework," you will likely sour his attitude towards searching more than you soften his concerns about environment. 

Work hides where he feels safe. AND work on making him feel safe in more places.

That would be my approach.


----------



## Dogsignalfire

trainingjunkie said:


> If he was my dog, I would work the acclimation and confidence issues separately from the nosework. I would train for nosework in places where my dog felt comfortable, and I would to and play, hang out, and experience new places independently of the work.
> 
> If you try to combine "conquering of fears" and "nosework," you will likely sour his attitude towards searching more than you soften his concerns about environment.
> 
> Work hides where he feels safe. AND work on making him feel safe in more places.
> 
> That would be my approach.


That makes sense. Honestly, we're constantly acclimating and working on his confidence/feeling safe issues whenever I'm home with him and take him out, anywhere- it's an ongoing process. Lancer has really come a looong way from how he was before, really. If someone saw him a year and a half ago in public, and saw him now, he's not the same dog at all. 

Maybe it's just a matter of time and waiting/working at his pace, if nothing else.

And yeah, that makes sense to just keep playing the game where he feels happy and comfortable! I don't want to ruin the game for him.


----------



## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> Awesome weather!
> 
> Good luck! I hope you guys title this time, or at least put in another performance you can be proud of.





trainingjunkie said:


> Good luck! You guys are going to do great!


Thanks guys. I hope we do well, he was great at our last travel class at least.


----------



## trainingjunkie

I am heading to an ORT on Sunday. I'm not sure how wise this is, but I am running Gator in Anise and Clove, Ky in Birch, and Mahto in Birch, Anise, and Clove. Ought to be an interesting day. They are calling for snow and rain and we will be working from our cars. 

We will be parked across the street from the building where the ORT is held and there is a long flight of stairs down into the ORT area. It will be interesting to see how my whippets hold up. It might be too much for them.


----------



## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I am heading to an ORT on Sunday. I'm not sure how wise this is, but I am running Gator in Anise and Clove, Ky in Birch, and Mahto in Birch, Anise, and Clove. Ought to be an interesting day. They are calling for snow and rain and we will be working from our cars.
> 
> We will be parked across the street from the building where the ORT is held and there is a long flight of stairs down into the ORT area. It will be interesting to see how my whippets hold up. It might be too much for them.


Good luck! I didn't realize you could run more than one dog in the same odor at the same time. I guess they just put you at the end and switch the boxes around?


----------



## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> If he was my dog, I would work the acclimation and confidence issues separately from the nosework. I would train for nosework in places where my dog felt comfortable, and I would go and play, hang out, and experience new places independently of the work.
> 
> If you try to combine "conquering of fears" and "nosework," you will likely sour his attitude towards searching more than you soften his concerns about environment.
> 
> Work hides where he feels safe. AND work on making him feel safe in more places.
> 
> That would be my approach.


Yes, this. I wouldn't try to work nosework yet in a place where he's not comfortable enough to take food.

It's possible that longer time doing NW in familiar places will eventually bleed over. He's only been training for a couple months, right? It's possible that once he builds up a super great association with it over many months or even a year or more, it might mean more to him in new environments.


----------



## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> Good luck! I didn't realize you could run more than one dog in the same odor at the same time. I guess they just put you at the end and switch the boxes around?


This ORT is hosting 2 runs of each odor so handlers can double up on dogs. There will be Birch One and Birch Two, Anise One and Anise Two, etc. So the most runs that anyone can do is 6, 2 dogs on each odor. Which is what I am doing, for better or worse!


----------



## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> This ORT is hosting 2 runs of each odor so handlers can double up on dogs. There will be Birch One and Birch Two, Anise One and Anise Two, etc. So the most runs that anyone can do is 6, 2 dogs on each odor. Which is what I am doing, for better or worse!


Oh, that's awesome! What a good idea.


----------



## Dogsignalfire

elrohwen said:


> Yes, this. I wouldn't try to work nosework yet in a place where he's not comfortable enough to take food.
> 
> It's possible that longer time doing NW in familiar places will eventually bleed over. He's only been training for a couple months, right? It's possible that once he builds up a super great association with it over many months or even a year or more, it might mean more to him in new environments.


Yeah, we just started some beginning of October, but he picked it up quickly- in environments he's comfortable in haha. I think that building a super great association and having is bleed over is the plan for now.

Do you think it would be worthwhile to just amp his drive by switching over to a ball? He does not give a single poo about any fears anymore, once there is a ball in question LOL. Though not sure how this would be done, since the extent of excitement he has over a ball currently causes him to be more hasty and careless about catching odor.


----------



## elrohwen

Dogsignalfire said:


> Do you think it would be worthwhile to just amp his drive by switching over to a ball? He does not give a single poo about any fears anymore, once there is a ball in question LOL. Though not sure how this would be done, since the extent of excitement he has over a ball currently causes him to be more hasty and careless about catching odor.


I really don't know. I haven't used toys much in training and definitely not for nosework. Can he do other work for the ball? Or does he completely lose his head? I don't think you would be able to use it for nosework (at least not in new places) until you can use it for simpler behaviors that he knows very well. And he'd have to be able to do nosework in a familiar environment with the ball as well.

The biggest problem I see is that with food you can reward at source, but with a ball you can't since the whole point is to throw it. It might cause him to start pulling off of odor in anticipation of you throwing the ball.


----------



## trainingjunkie

If you use the ball to over-face your dog's fears, they are just likely to return when you don't have the ball. I would work on fixing the problem rather than just masking it. I think you will get into more trouble than it's worth. Work nosework where your dog feels safe. At the same time, work at helping your dog feel safe in more places.

That's what I would be doing.


----------



## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> If you use the ball to over-face your dog's fears, they are just likely to return when you don't have the ball. I would work on fixing the problem rather than just masking it. I think you will get into more trouble than it's worth. Work nosework where your dog feels safe. At the same time, work at helping your dog feel safe in more places.
> 
> That's what I would be doing.


That's true. I do think you can mask a dog's fears with something they really love, while not actually helping them overcome the fear at all.


----------



## Dogsignalfire

elrohwen said:


> I really don't know. I haven't used toys much in training and definitely not for nosework. Can he do other work for the ball? Or does he completely lose his head? I don't think you would be able to use it for nosework (at least not in new places) until you can use it for simpler behaviors that he knows very well. And he'd have to be able to do nosework in a familiar environment with the ball as well.
> 
> The biggest problem I see is that with food you can reward at source, but with a ball you can't since the whole point is to throw it. It might cause him to start pulling off of odor in anticipation of you throwing the ball.


He obeys commands 100% with the ball, and actually a better and very consistent "stay" than with treats (lolol I am the best obedience trainer, not really). So I know that he can use a ball reward for probably almost anything with training, but not exactly sure how to start when it comes to nose work.

Oh, that makes sense too- the rewarding at source. :s Hmm... my trainer did tell me that using a ball reward requires very precise timing, so she's putting it off. She recommended just still using treats for now to build his foundation.




trainingjunkie said:


> If you use the ball to over-face your dog's fears, they are just likely to return when you don't have the ball. I would work on fixing the problem rather than just masking it. I think you will get into more trouble than it's worth. Work nosework where your dog feels safe. At the same time, work at helping your dog feel safe in more places.
> 
> That's what I would be doing.





elrohwen said:


> That's true. I do think you can mask a dog's fears with something they really love, while not actually helping them overcome the fear at all.


This is actually something that genuinely confused me, since I did think of this possibility before. In my experience with Lancer though, I used the ball in replace of treats to help with CC and DS, since the ball is the highest value reward in his case- and I think I can claim that it's worked very well for him. Would using the ball not be the same as treats? Would using treats (assuming Lancer's high value is treats) still just be masking the fears?

I guess kind of like with behavior modification, it can teach a dog that they don't need to react or bother about the source of their fears/reactivity. But it won't flip them around and "cure" their fears/dislike from the root either. ie: a dog that's fear-aggressive of dogs can become calm in the presence of dogs, but still won't _want to play_ with a stranger dog, if the dog comes up to want to play with him.


----------



## trainingjunkie

I didn't say I wouldn't use the ball or food to work a dog through fears. I just said I wouldn't combine that work with nosework, even if the ball made it possible. Even if he can do nosework for a ball when he's worried, you are, in my opinion, contaminating your nosework and training.

Use whatever your dog likes to help him feel better in new places. I just won't ask my dogs to work while scared. Play and eat? Sure. Nosework? No.


----------



## Dogsignalfire

trainingjunkie said:


> I didn't say I wouldn't use the ball or food to work a dog through fears. I just said I wouldn't combine that work with nosework, even if the ball made it possible. Even if he can do nosework for a ball when he's worried, you are, in my opinion, contaminating your nosework and training.
> 
> Use whatever your dog likes to help him feel better in new places. I just won't ask my dogs to work while scared. Play and eat? Sure. Nosework? No.


Ah I see what you mean. Yeah, I don't want to ruin the game for him, like I said on the previous page. Interesting that you think using a ball while working would contaminate the game for him. I do think that using treats in particular when trying to work in environments he is uncomfortable in would contaminates the game for him, because he is feeling the fear/uncomfortable when using treats. But I don't think it would be the same when using a ball. The ball does a lot for him, and basically nukes out his fears when I'm holding it. 

I definitely won't ask my dogs to work while scared, which is why I won't use treats in a new environment anymore. If we're still on treats, we will stay in his comfort zone until his drive to play nose work leaks onto different environments. The thing is that the game is very much changed once there's a ball in question, and he just _isn't_ scared at all. He would literally die for a ball, and die happy. LOL

Similar to how playing ball at a park with a lot of people won't contaminate playing fetch- it's the opposite, in fact. Fetch is like work, just not formal work and one that he consistently finds very reinforcing. Counter conditioning, because the ball is such a fun and high value reward for him. So I'm thinking it would be the same process for nose work, using the ball. So replace "playing fetch at a park" with "nosework at a park = playing fetch at a park". 

I guess another example would be: Lancer LOVES going to the park, because he knows he gets to play ball. Without a ball, he knows that there are possibly people and dogs there to make him nervous. But the ball and playing fetch is so reinforcing for him, he loves going to the park anyway, and the park is a happy place for him. He begs me to go to the park every day. The location of the park/going to the park isn't contaminated because he has a root anxiety around people/dogs.

And definitely, whenever I start using the ball, we will start at home first. I won't jump straight to the park.

Hmm.. I guess the missing detail is this- he needs to be conditioned to specific parks with playing fetch/ball reward to make him not nervous at the specific park. And then he's not nervous overall, whether I have the ball or not. But if we go to a new park where we haven't played ball/don't go there much, then he's nervous.

(wow that was a long stream of consciousness thing LOL) 

But I digress, we will still build foundation for awhile now in environments he is comfortable in with treats. And then discuss with our instructor more and see what she thinks.


----------



## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> I am heading to an ORT on Sunday. I'm not sure how wise this is, but I am running Gator in Anise and Clove, Ky in Birch, and Mahto in Birch, Anise, and Clove. Ought to be an interesting day. They are calling for snow and rain and we will be working from our cars.
> 
> We will be parked across the street from the building where the ORT is held and there is a long flight of stairs down into the ORT area. It will be interesting to see how my whippets hold up. It might be too much for them.


Good luck to your crew on their ORTs! We'll both have a fun nosework filled day on Sunday. Sorry you'll not have as nice weather as I'm supposed to have but at least yours make sense in December.


----------



## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> Good luck to your crew on their ORTs! We'll both have a fun nosework filled day on Sunday. Sorry you'll not have as nice weather as I'm supposed to have but at least yours make sense in December.


Thank you! I am pretty excited to see how my whippets hold up to a little "real" pressure! They've done well in training, but sometimes the real thing brings out some different behavior! Again, best of luck to you! You're playing at the top while I'm dabbling at the bottom!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Dogsignalfire said:


> Ah I see what you mean. Yeah, I don't want to ruin the game for him, like I said on the previous page. Interesting that you think using a ball while working would contaminate the game for him. I do think that using treats in particular when trying to work in environments he is uncomfortable in would contaminates the game for him, because he is feeling the fear/uncomfortable when using treats. But I don't think it would be the same when using a ball. The ball does a lot for him, and basically nukes out his fears when I'm holding it.
> 
> I definitely won't ask my dogs to work while scared, which is why I won't use treats in a new environment anymore. If we're still on treats, we will stay in his comfort zone until his drive to play nose work leaks onto different environments. The thing is that the game is very much changed once there's a ball in question, and he just _isn't_ scared at all. He would literally die for a ball, and die happy. LOL
> 
> Similar to how playing ball at a park with a lot of people won't contaminate playing fetch- it's the opposite, in fact. Fetch is like work, just not formal work and one that he consistently finds very reinforcing. Counter conditioning, because the ball is such a fun and high value reward for him. So I'm thinking it would be the same process for nose work, using the ball. So replace "playing fetch at a park" with "nosework at a park = playing fetch at a park".
> 
> I guess another example would be: Lancer LOVES going to the park, because he knows he gets to play ball. Without a ball, he knows that there are possibly people and dogs there to make him nervous. But the ball and playing fetch is so reinforcing for him, he loves going to the park anyway, and the park is a happy place for him. He begs me to go to the park every day. The location of the park/going to the park isn't contaminated because he has a root anxiety around people/dogs.
> 
> And definitely, whenever I start using the ball, we will start at home first. I won't jump straight to the park.
> 
> Hmm.. I guess the missing detail is this- he needs to be conditioned to specific parks with playing fetch/ball reward to make him not nervous at the specific park. And then he's not nervous overall, whether I have the ball or not. But if we go to a new park where we haven't played ball/don't go there much, then he's nervous.
> 
> (wow that was a long stream of consciousness thing LOL)
> 
> But I digress, we will still build foundation for awhile now in environments he is comfortable in with treats. And then discuss with our instructor more and see what she thinks.


I don't think that I am communicating effectively. I did not say that training with a ball will contaminate your training. I have trained a narcotics dog using only a ball, no food. It certainly works. 

Your dog, your call on everything. I just don't think high value reinforcers should be used to limp a dog through work when the dog is not comfortable. I've done that with one dog, and the result was a conflicted dog. It worked enough to finish a CD, but if my goals had been larger, I would have been very jammed up quickly because my dog was missing the confidence she needed to feel comfortable in a show setting.

I work skills in places where my dogs are comfortable. When I go to new places, I work acclimation and engagement. When my dogs is truly comfortable, I work on our skills in that space. I take my dogs many places until they can perform their skills comfortably. I add proofing at home. Then, when my dogs can work in new places easily, I add proofing there too. Then, my dog is probably ready to compete.

I can short-cut many of these steps if I use incredible reinforcement to drown out the environment. However, the wheels will likely come off later when stress is high and arousal is low. I prefer not to do this to my dogs.

A person can totally use toys-only and train a nosework dog. There are a few challenges to it, but it can be effectively done. If the dog is ball-obsessive to the point that the dog goes not notice the environment, then the dog is not adjusting to the environment. When stress lowers play-drive, the environment is still going to be a big problem. This often happens in competition. 

You know your dog. I have never met your dog. Perhaps your dog is very different from the dogs I have handled. You get to decide that. I just think that most dogs need a little assistance and time to take in environmental challenges. And I think that they should be allowed to do that in a more neutral state instead of a highly aroused one. If they can handle environments when they are not jacked up, they are more likely going to be able to handle competition. 

Just my thoughts, FWIW.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Dagwall---- How did the trial go?!?


----------



## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Dagwall---- How did the trial go?!?


Just got home and settled (dog fed, pottied, snuggled up on couch). Working on update.


----------



## dagwall

No NW3 title again, Jubel's head wasn't in the game to some degree today. He did okay but I think we could have done better, 11/27 people got titles today. We had containers first which was better than last like last trial but not sure if first is that great for Jubel either. Containers were set up as two rows of six, alternating between white box and a luggage like container. He blasted past the start line and ran to the end of the rows, turned around and started searching the left row, darted across to other row in the middle of the column sniffing and knocking the box around. I called alert, got a no and there is a rough start to our day. First search of the day and I got a no.

Next we did interiors. Found one hide in the first room, he false alerted about a second hide and we're done in that room. Second room we find the one hide and that was good. Third room we find two hides, he hints at a third hide but wouldn't source it well enough so I call finish, which is good because there were only two hides there.

Then we do vehicles. Four vehicles basically making a plus sign with a big gap in the middle. Again Jubel blasts past the start line and runs to the far side of the search area, he actually wants to keep going out of the area. Get him back into the area and try to get him searching the vehicle closest to us, he's not interested in it at all. Okay... Move on to next vehicle, still no real interest until we get to the far side and he finally catches odor. Seems interested in back tire at first but bounces around to front tire, back to back tire, then flys to the front and sources the hide. Okay, keep searching two vehicles he hasn't looked at. He goes straight across to vehicle in front of first hide, sniffs all around and sources odor on back drivers side tire. Alright good boy, one more vehicle, can't get him to pay it any attention so I hope for the best and call finish. Logic similar to blank rooms, if the dog won't stay in the room it's likely clear, if he won't pay attention to the vehicle it's probably clear. He was right, we passed vehicles.

Last came exterior with a fire pit/grill, three groups of a few rows of benches, a tall wood table, and a plywood "shelter" for chopped wood...lots of leaves. As expected Jubel was interested in the pile of chopped wood and its shelter, likely due to critter odor. No alerts there so I move him along the search area trying to get him to check out the benches, no interest. Now fire pit is super interesting, he even grabs a chunk on charged wood to munch on. Lots of interest in the grill grate but is that odor or "yum, smells like food"? Hard to tell so I move him along again. Lots of interest under the tall wood table, circle, circle, circle... Eventually follows it up and sources odor so we have one hide. Go back to the fire pit and see what he'll do. More sniffing the grill but this time he paws it which he won't to with food so alert and that's two hides. Check back at the wood pile again, circle the whole shelter, 30 sec warning during this, give him about 10 seconds to check it over and call finish. Only two hides and we pass exteriors.

This trial has photos and video available have to see how picture come out if I'll want any of them but I'll want the video. Should have video of everything but interiors, rooms were just too small to add another person. So end result we are similar to the last trial. Pass vehicles, exteriors, and fail/false alert on containers, interiors.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Will you be willing to post your video? I will be very interested in seeing it if you're willing to share.

NW3 is such a huge challenge. You will get it! I am sorry it didn't go better today.


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## trainingjunkie

Here are our ORTS. We went 6/6. Now we need to find some trials! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZQkRFqm9k


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Will you be willing to post your video? I will be very interested in seeing it if you're willing to share.
> 
> NW3 is such a huge challenge. You will get it! I am sorry it didn't go better today.


I plan to after I see them, at the very least I'll send you links haha.


----------



## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Here are our ORTS. We went 6/6. Now we need to find some trials! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZQkRFqm9k


Good job! I knew you guys would do great.


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## trainingjunkie

Thanks! I will look forward to those links! What a difficult and rewarding sport!


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## dagwall

Got the videos today, spent the extra $5 to have the hides marked in the videos. 

First we have the mess that was our container search. He was too amped up and I probably shouldn't have let him sprint to the other side, although he did similar in our NW2 interior search in the second room and he actually ran right up to a hide. So yeah... I don't know. 






Next we have vehicles which we passed. He doesn't look as spacey in this video as he felt to me at the time but he really wasn't focusing until he was on top of the hides... which he found and alerted to so not too bad. Our time wasn't even THAT bad, 2:11 minutes out of 3:00 minutes; 9th of 27 dogs. You can't really see it in the video but while I was trying to get him to check out the last vehicle he was paying it zero attention, just walking around like we were out of a walk. I correctly took that to mean no more hides. His "search of the PT cruiser looking vehicle on the left was pretty similar, barely paying it any attention.






And last we have exteriors, slow time but also a pass. Anytime the search area involves something that may smell like food I'm slow to call alert. Having the hide on the grill for a fire pit I'm holding out for something solidly indicating odor vs. food interest for Jubel. Thus I didn't call it when he was first on it...and notice he picks something up and I pull him away, chared wood chunk. The hide on the table was clear once he was on it. The wood box which had chopped wood in it just seemed like a great spot for a hide so I really wanted him to check it out. Talking to others a lot felt the same and spent a good amount of time on the box.


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## trainingjunkie

Thank you so much for sharing these! So interesting! You guys are a great team. Congratulations on your successful elements! Good for you for knowing how to read the alerts and for being patient.

What do you think happened on containers? How often do you work them? Was that the first search of the day?

Jubel does an awesome job! You guys are great!


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## dagwall

trainingjunkie said:


> Thank you so much for sharing these! So interesting! You guys are a great team. Congratulations on your successful elements! Good for you for knowing how to read the alerts and for being patient.
> 
> What do you think happened on containers? How often do you work them? Was that the first search of the day?
> 
> Jubel does an awesome job! You guys are great!


I'm really not sure what happened with containers. It was the first element that day which I'm sure doesn't help, though being the last element at our last trial wasn't good either. While we waited to be called inside for our search we were sitting outside the building on some wooden deck chairs. Jubel was working those chairs like crazy searching for odor so he knew why we were there. I think he just got too overstimulated and spazed out really. I'd guess about 30% of our nosework travel classes have some container element to them. 

Thanks for the kind words.


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## elrohwen

That's awesome! Thanks for posting! I love the "dead deer" arrow in the vehicle search. I think that is one of the few distractions Watson might not be able to work through. Haha


Hazel's nosework is coming along ok. We haven't been working on it nearly enough, but last night I think she had a bit of a breakthrough and realized that the odor is the reason she gets rewarded. Before that there was clearly a lot of guessing. I can see why in person classes wouldn't teach with this method. It really requires skill and having someone slowly walk you through the steps, which is not something you can easily do with a once a week class.


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## dagwall

elrohwen said:


> That's awesome! Thanks for posting! I love the "dead deer" arrow in the vehicle search. I think that is one of the few distractions Watson might not be able to work through. Haha


Yeah that is the first I heard about a dead deer when the videographer sent an email about purchasing videos and the example of the markings saying "dead deer". Certainly explains Jubel's interest in running straight over there and continued efforts to explore in that direction.


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## trainingjunkie

dagwall said:


> Yeah that is the first I heard about a dead deer when the videographer sent an email about purchasing videos and the example of the markings saying "dead deer". Certainly explains Jubel's interest in running straight over there and continued efforts to explore in that direction.


Guess I'm going to have to start pulling over on the highway to obtain proof-able distractions. Anyone need me to mail them some hind-quarters? (Yes, I'm kidding.)


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## ireth0

Well, Santa was found last night, but no thanks to us. Oh well! I really wasn't expecting much and was just there to have fun. (it was actually a very good exercise for -me- in letting go and not caring about results)

All in all it was a fun time and we even got a treat goodie bag for participating. This wraps up our dog activities for this year! We are now officially on break until Jan.


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## dagwall

Arrggg.... I'm getting annoyed waiting on the pictures from the NW3 trial. I have the photographers website and he took pictures all three days; Friday NW3, Saturday NW2, Sunday NW3. Only the Saturday NW2 pictures are up, can't find the NW3 from either day anywhere on the site. Damn it I want pictures. It's the good photographer that was at my NW2 trial that took tons of great pictures off all the dogs. Haha I'm ready to give you money man... give me pictures.


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## dagwall

Trial photos are finally available, I ended up emailing the guy the other day to see if I was just failing to find them or they just weren't uploaded yet/correctly. He didn't respond to my email BUT the pictures are finally there. Didn't really get any I feel I HAVE to buy... might not even end up purchasing any of them, a few good ones but probably saving my money.

link to all the photos from that day below. Jubel photos are 214-227 for containers, 1243-1280 for vehicles, 2003-2037 for exteriors. 

NW3 trial photos


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## trainingjunkie

I like 217 and 225! 1262 and 1273. 2004 and 2027. Lots of nice shots. I always spend too much money!


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## Laurelin

Eeeeep! There's an actual ORT in state in the spring!

Gonna sign up the Hankster. 

Guess I should actually practice now


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## Canyx

Troubleshoot help, anyone?

I'm upping my game a bit and made five PVC tubes to put the scent in. I'm still using black pepper and I keep it in one tube; no contamination to the others. I think I jumped the gun with introducing the pipes and now Sor is being sloppy and alerting to the first tube he sees. He does have really nice moments when he actually sniffs a blank then moves on to find and indicate the one with scent. But more often than not he is indicating the first tube in his path. What I'm thinking I should have done is scatter all five tubes on the floor and played the scent game normally (scent in paper towel and hidden in random parts of the house), in which he would have ignored the irrelevant items on the ground and sniffed out the scent... THEN I would transfer the scent to one of the tubes. Instead I immediately set up the tube game and thus our dilemma right now.

So far, I have been waiting him out and ignoring any false indications, jackpotting if he gets it right on the first try. Any other ideas that will help this process?

And fyi, Soro is the most well trained corner-cutting dog I've met. He will do things because he's been taught to do things. But he tries to find his shortcuts. Which is why I have never been able to successfully teach the scent game with cups (he knocks them all over the moment I release him)... If I tell him to circle a house he will run all the way around and back. If I tell him to circle a row of chairs he will try to find a gap to slip through midway instead of doing the fill circle (which would take less time than finding a gap). You get the idea. No discipline, this one  But he loves this game! And I am trying to teach him this tube game with regards to earning his TDCH.


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## trainingjunkie

I find your challenge interesting! I know what I would try. But first, I have to question the black pepper. I have never worked with pepper, other than cooking, and I find the odor very irritating. I would not want to search for it using my nose. And my dogs' noses are way more sensitive than mine. Any chance that Soro has some odor avoidance? Is he happy to scent deeply? If so, then I think I would plant a hide in a room and have empty tubes planted in the search area. I would ignore any reaction to the tubes. They're empty. I would run several room hides with empty tubes. Then, I would place a hide in a tube (the only hide in the room is in the tube) and scatter them empty tubes randomly throughout the room. I would slowly pull them together.

However, this assumes that he already understands searching for odor. Does he? Or are you in the early stages?


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## elrohwen

I'm still very new to teaching NW straight to odor and I'm having a similar problem with Hazel (though we haven't worked on it in a month or so). The online class said to acknowledge a false alert by going over and pretending to check the box, and then putting it down and letting the dog continue. So they learn that only alerting to the odor gets a reward, and they don't learn to alert on everything and wait for you to run in and reward to know that they're right.

This part has been hard for me and is why we took a break for a while. It's nothing like the way I trained Watson so I'm a bit out of my depth.

ETA: The online class also relied heavily on the odor tin being in a box (usually plastic tupperware with holes in the lid) for a long time. It wasn't recommended to just hide the odor around the room until the boxes were well understood. But if Soro already understands odor hidden around a room then it's a slightly different issue.


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## ireth0

My thought would be to put the tubes out with other articles (bag, glove, wallet, etc) and put the hide in something other than a tube. 

So just because the tubes are out doesn't mean it will be in a tube.


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## Canyx

Thanks for your input, everyone!



trainingjunkie said:


> I find your challenge interesting! I know what I would try. But first, I have to question the black pepper. I have never worked with pepper, other than cooking, and I find the odor very irritating. I would not want to search for it using my nose. And my dogs' noses are way more sensitive than mine. Any chance that Soro has some odor avoidance? Is he happy to scent deeply? If so, then I think I would plant a hide in a room and have empty tubes planted in the search area. I would ignore any reaction to the tubes. They're empty. I would run several room hides with empty tubes. Then, I would place a hide in a tube (the only hide in the room is in the tube) and scatter them empty tubes randomly throughout the room. I would slowly pull them together.
> 
> However, this assumes that he already understands searching for odor. Does he? Or are you in the early stages?


I don't believe it is odor avoidance. Here is a video of Soro doing what we usually do. As you can see it is super informal. And I would say his enthusiasm in this video is lower than usual. Usually he is trotting around the room and doing rapid fire breathing (for the lack of a better term). Though you know, maybe he is focusing more in this video since he found it super quickly instead of touring the whole room first! I have hidden the scent outside, on cars, in high places, under things, and inside things. He adores this game and doesn't usually have trouble finding the scent unless it is in a very closed space (like inside of a file cabinet if the scent didn't touch the lip of the drawer), or if I play too long and run out of places to hide (ie, the scent is sort of everywhere). Though interestingly, he has never false indicated a previous spot even though I am pretty sure the black pepper in the measly towel wrap would have left some scent. His start word is "Track," his indication is a Sit, and I added an extra cue "Show me" for him to show me the more exact location with his nose and Sit again.






ETA: I try my best to make sure I don't get any food scent onto the other scent. Way back when I put the reward (a bowl of raw meat) on a counter and asked him to search... He sat and 'indicated' in front of the reward  But since then I proofed him to ignore food, even if it is in a bowl on the table. Just mentioning this because I am clearly holding food in my hand in this video and want to rule out him smelling food instead of the pepper.



elrohwen said:


> I'm still very new to teaching NW straight to odor and I'm having a similar problem with Hazel (though we haven't worked on it in a month or so). The online class said to acknowledge a false alert by going over and pretending to check the box, and then putting it down and letting the dog continue. So they learn that only alerting to the odor gets a reward, and they don't learn to alert on everything and wait for you to run in and reward to know that they're right.
> 
> This part has been hard for me and is why we took a break for a while. It's nothing like the way I trained Watson so I'm a bit out of my depth.
> 
> ETA: The online class also relied heavily on the odor tin being in a box (usually plastic tupperware with holes in the lid) for a long time. It wasn't recommended to just hide the odor around the room until the boxes were well understood. But if Soro already understands odor hidden around a room then it's a slightly different issue.


Interesting! I have been ignoring the false alerts until he moves on. In the past I have very rarely checked the false alerts... I forget how I handled it; maybe I reset him, or maybe I gave him his "Track" cue again. But I think he would stubbornly stay by his false alert and then get really concerned about not being right. I do always end the game with a successful round, even if I make a super easy hide.



ireth0 said:


> My thought would be to put the tubes out with other articles (bag, glove, wallet, etc) and put the hide in something other than a tube.
> 
> So just because the tubes are out doesn't mean it will be in a tube.


I may just go back to the beginning and do that, as you and trainingjunkie have recommended.


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## trainingjunkie

He looks fabulous! Ignore what I said about the pepper. Clearly it does not bother him in the least. You will work through the tubes in no time.


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## Canyx

The goober. This is our first try today with blank tubes on the ground:





He really wanted the tubes to be the right answer at first!

And then on our second try he did a lot better. This is much more like our usual. 





Thanks for the suggestion of blank pipes. It seems to be working!


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## trainingjunkie

Those look great! You will be able to use the pipes very quickly! He sure is dedicated to the task! Very fun to watch.

Have you played at all with aging the hides? If you let a hide age for half an hour, it's fun to watch the dogs us air scent to work their way to source. Without aging, the dogs have to hunt and peck, which also very cool to watch, but looks very different. I love how Soro stays on task. You guys have done a great job.


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## Canyx

trainingjunkie said:


> Those look great! You will be able to use the pipes very quickly! He sure is dedicated to the task! Very fun to watch.
> 
> Have you played at all with aging the hides? If you let a hide age for half an hour, it's fun to watch the dogs us air scent to work their way to source. Without aging, the dogs have to hunt and peck, which also very cool to watch, but looks very different. I love how Soro stays on task. You guys have done a great job.


Super cool! I did not even know aging the hides was a thing with this kind of nosework. I will have to try it after we figure the pipes out. I appreciate your encouragement and advice a TON (and others' too!).
Soro will lose steam if he can't find it over a long period of time. It would be worth it down the line for me to provide some sort of structure, such as having him on leash so we can systematically check spots. But with such a small living space I don't even bother.

PS You don't post enough vids of your dogs working! I love the one where your boy aces that nosework test with the row of boxes.


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## trainingjunkie

Well, here are a couple of videos of my whippets doing box searches in my basement!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gP5HzfHq21w

And my other whippet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_YQ4Z7s1eI

And Gator doing a fairly challenging outdoor search: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSqALB-3fCg

AND, my dogs doing 6 ORTS in one day going 6/6: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyZQkRFqm9k


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## Canyx

YAY! THANKS!

I watched them all. You and your dogs are too cool. My favorite moments were when you did the hand targeting with Mahto at the trial, Ky picking up the alert box in your home practice, and of course... Everything about Gator. Soro is not quite as intense but similar to him in that he tends to barrel into things. He will knock things off the coffee table while sniffing and sometimes 'flip' through books. Your dogs are so responsive and happy! (and I know happy for a whippet looks different than happy for a pittie). Many kudos to your relationship and accomplishments with them.


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## trainingjunkie

Thank you so much! Since you're so kind, here's one more: Mahto and I keep practicing our play to try to keep his energy up. This makes me smile: More hand-touches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzetKPrK7jM


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## Canyx

Lovely! If I remember correctly... You worked really hard to build up his personal play? Or was it Ky who was shy about making contact with her mouth? Either way, Mahto definitely has good energy! Boing!!


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## trainingjunkie

It was Mahto who struggled with play. We are still working, but he has made a ton of progress. And really, if it never gets better, it's probably good enough for everything we need it for.


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## Canyx

I'll say!


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## Canyx

Another nosework question... How do y'all start dogs for this game? I've read a few different methods; put scent together with food to start; put food in boxes to teach box search THEN put scent in with food; reward when they interact with the scent (instead of putting the two together from the get go). I think I went with the last option. And looking online, I THINK that is the Fenziversion but without more information I could be wrong: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/15

It sounds like the biggest differences are teaching the dog: scent=food here, versus scent=I will get food from handler. I have heard that the former is more popular because it immediately pairs food with the scent and is good at keeping the dog on the scent. But please enlighten me if I'm wrong!


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## dagwall

Canyx said:


> Another nosework question... How do y'all start dogs for this game? I've read a few different methods; put scent together with food to start; put food in boxes to teach box search THEN put scent in with food; reward when they interact with the scent (instead of putting the two together from the get go). I think I went with the last option. And looking online, I THINK that is the Fenziversion but without more information I could be wrong: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/15
> 
> It sounds like the biggest differences are teaching the dog: scent=food here, versus scent=I will get food from handler. I have heard that the former is more popular because it immediately pairs food with the scent and is good at keeping the dog on the scent. But please enlighten me if I'm wrong!


Teaching to search with food in boxes, then pairing food and odor, then just odor is the NACSW approved training method and what Jubel was trained with. My understanding with the Feniz method they start straight on odor. I think there are advantages to both methods and it depends on the dog on which will be best for them. I think Jubel would have done well on the Fenzi method and possibly have less an issue with scavenging for food while searching... But he's always scavenging for food so it many not have made a difference for him. 

If I train another dog I'll probably try a method closer to the Fenzi method than the NACSW method Jubel was started with. It'll probably be a bit of a median between the two methods. People are having great success with both methods so neither is right or wrong.


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## Canyx

I thought as much. Thanks for clarifying, dagwall!


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## Dogsignalfire

I think Lancer's finally starting to decide to not false alert, even when I'm using a ball reward. OMG. Straight up practice and repetition might actually be paying off. Or at least, I hope that's the reason. Har har har..

(This is still just working in the house and yard, if someone might remember my posts from a couple months back... he was too nervous to play nose work games out in public/parks...)

Lancer's so obsessed with BALLS, I'm just so sure that there are so many things he can do when we can use his ball drive to our advantage... What else is there? Any other fun sports or games to play? He is a dumb dumb ball dog.


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## elrohwen

Watson was trained with the NACSW pairing method. It worked fine but it was slow and uneccessary for him. I'm using the Fenzi method with Hazel. 

The biggest downside I see to the Fenzi method is that it assumes some training and shaping ability that isn't trivial. With someone to walk you through most people could do it, but trying to teach beginners in a class and then letting them go home to work it out themselves could be rough. The pairing method is more idiot proof. But then you have a lot of experienced dog people who get into nosework and would be just fine using the Fenzi method.


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## Canyx

Fenzi method is basically rewarding the dog when he decides to investigate the odor, right? Do they still reward on the container?


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## elrohwen

It's more like rewarding a nose touch to odor. Then nose touch to container with odor. At first it's really just a nose touch, but then they figure out that the thing that makes it pay is odor. Beyond that it's the same as far as rewarding on the container/at source goes.


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## elrohwen

A quick article about doing nosework with shelter dogs to keep them mentally stimulated:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/g...work®-shelter-dogs-enrichment-both-ends-leash


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## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> A quick article about doing nosework with shelter dogs to keep them mentally stimulated:
> http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/g...work®-shelter-dogs-enrichment-both-ends-leash


That's brilliant! Shelter life is so eroding. What a great way to help dogs out. So much better than just walking a frantic dog (which is still 1000% better than nothing!).


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> That's brilliant! Shelter life is so eroding. What a great way to help dogs out. So much better than just walking a frantic dog (which is still 1000% better than nothing!).


Yeah, I thought it was really cool.

And imagine how impressed potential adopters will be when they say that the dog is trained in nosework.


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## ireth0

I can see that working for dogs that have settled enough to be interested in the food. 

I've run into the same thing many times when trying to use food dispensing toys with different dogs, if the dog doesn't want the treat enough, or is too distracted by the environment to focus on the task, it just doesn't work.

Something I really try to focus on when I'm there is providing mental enrichment. I sooooo wish we had a space that was free of distractions so I could really have their attention and focus on the task.


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## dagwall

My nosework instructor bought a dog in from one of the local shelters for one round of classes. It actually helped get the dog adopted into a nosework home if I remember correctly.


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## Canyx

Progress with the pipes! For a while we were at a standstill... I had the blank pipes lying around the house for a couple of weeks and then I introduced the scent pipe. He found it and indicated alright, but after he searched the entire room. That is understandable because the entire point was for him to not focus on the pipes and rush into indicating the first one he saw. But after that first round, he went back to 'guessing.'

So I changed the game entirely. I laid the pipes out in a row and I had him on LEASH (imagine that), and led him down the row of pipes. In the beginning I had to point at each pipe because he didn't understand the game and would try to run down the line. His rate of success was iffy in the beginning of each session but gets to 100% toward the end. And when I can, I ask my partner to set the pipes so I don't know where the correct one is either. 

Anyways, I'll keep this up for a couple of weeks and see where it leads. I feel like Soro knows the find and alert part, but I am structure and impulse control. Right now I am being very deliberately brisk when I walk him, so that he moves straight and doesn't veer off anywhere else. Also, so he doesn't fixate on the first pipe he sees. Sort of like getting him to think LESS. I see the difference between his false alerts and his true ones. If I let him linger on one pipe he will immediately sit, look at me, then get up and keep searching. I want zero false alerts. If I walk him briskly and he gets a glancing sniff at each one, he will swivel and stop at the correct one. As the session goes on he does MUCH better. But the goal is for him to walk me down the line, after we practice this pattern a bit first.


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## trainingjunkie

That's great! Sounds like you're getting there! There's so much fun in the details!


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## Canyx

Success!






He blew past it the first time and nearly indicated the incorrect one before he noticed the pipe he missed. This tells me if there are no scents he may just Sit to indicate SOMETHING, which I know is a bad habit for this sport. How do you all end the game without confusing the dog when there are no scents to be found? I know for NW3 or one of the titles that is a possibility.











Scattered





I also started him on clove tonight just so I can be cool like you all.


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## trainingjunkie

He definitely has the tubes down! Fun! He's totally got this!

In the higher levels of nosework there can be blank rooms. You don't practice a ton of them because they are demotivating. When my friend and I practice together, we might set a single empty room up in a day when we have 6 searches with hides. If we do that, we just put the empty room somewhere in the middle of the searching cluster. It doesn't demotivate them too much when they can just move on too another search.

It's cool to watch my friend's dog clear an empty room. He works it fast but thoroughly and then just returns to his handler and looks her in the face. It's super easy to see him communicate "empty." Doesn't seem to bother him at all.


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## jade5280

Attending a Beauceron Nosework clinic later this month! It should be fun. I'm also going to bring Ryker since there were some spots open. I'm interested to see how differently they work.


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## Laurelin

We passed out ORT with flying colors! Now on to trialling!


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## Canyx

Yesss! Congrats and have fun!


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## Laurelin

Here we go...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=egad2MGcREQ





">https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=egad2MGcREQ





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