# Is my Papillon a purebred??? Help!



## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

I purchased Cooper 3 months ago, he is now 5 months old. I purchased him from a pet store (shame on me!) and they represented him as a purebred Papillon. At 5 months, he's almost 13 pounds, 13" tall to the shoulder, longer rounded snout, ears that do not stand up and a tail that only curls every now and then. He looks like a mix of Papillon and Jack Russel to me?? I'm about to get into a very heated discussion with the pet store. I'd appreciate opinions on what everyone thinks!! I will post more photos in a bit.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

And his hair is still short!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm not sure why you would get in a heated discussion with the pet store. If the dog's purity had value to you, well, ya, shame on you. I'm not sure anything will come of having that discussion with the pet store. That said, the dog is cute, looks happy, and if you love him, what more is needed?


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I'm not sure why you would get in a heated discussion with the pet store. If the dog's purity had value to you, well, ya, shame on you. I'm not sure anything will come of having that discussion with the pet store. That said, the dog is cute, looks happy, and if you love him, what more is needed?



Yes, he's cute and I love him and I wouldn't trade him for the world, however, I'm not too excited about paying a ton of money for a purebred dog to a pet store only to find he's an undisclosed mixed breed. That's fraud and I'm not too keen on getting ripped off. I purchased him two days after one of ours dogs died... we were afraid that our other dog wouldn't make it without some distraction ... so instead of rushing out and grabbing any dog we could find, we opted to go to a pet shop to get a purebred. I also spent a ton of money on training collars, etc. that are for "small dogs"...well guess what? The collars aren't strong enough because he .. isn't a small dog. Very frustrating!


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

No offense, but what did you expect from a pet store? That they'd have well bred dogs with pedigrees?

And I don't know what "training collars" for small dogs are... but your dog is a puppy. He wouldn't have fit into everything you bought him anyway. Puppies grow.

With that said, for all you know, he might just be a puppy mill Pap. As in purebred, just badly bred. You won't know for sure because you purchased him from a pet store and the dog most likely came from a mill.

I have a mill rescue and I don't know if he is a badly bred Pom or a Pomeranian x Chihuahua.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Good luck, but there's no way to prove, definitively, the dog is a mix. All you can prove is the dog is not to standard, but...pet stores are not in the standard business, and I'm sure the dog's purity was not on the guarantee that came with the dog. Just my opinion, but I think your time would be better served promoting better choices. I understand everything you're saying, and I sympathize with you, but at some point you'll want to decide how much head-banging is required. I would encourage less.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

He could be. No way to know for sure. The pet store here sells papillons that look more like shelties to me and are twice as big as my dogs. With pet store puppies you have no idea generally what you are getting. 

I've known purebred papillons up to 22lbs.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also, some papillons have dropped ears. They're called phalenes.

I would buy either purebred papillon or papillon mix. No way to know for sure.


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## cma48 (Mar 30, 2014)

> Posted by tacquitos
> 
> No offense, but what did you expect from a pet store? That they'd have well bred dogs with pedigrees?





> Posted by curbside prophet
> 
> Good luck, but there's no way to prove, definitively, the dog is a mix. All you can prove is the dog is not to standard


, 


yep, both of these statements are spot on. That is the risk you take when you buy a pet from a shop. Sorry, if it's a lecture but take it as a lesson learned the hard way. I am glad to hear you wouldn't trade him in for the world. Good luck.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Do you have papers from the store that state that he is a purebred? There is a small chance the store might offer to refund you and take the dog back, but it is unlikely they will give you any refund if you intend to keep the dog. There is also the issue of actually proving that he isn't a purebred. If you think you have enough documentation, you will need to be able to prove that they sold you the puppy under false pretenses and you will need to prove that the puppy is not purebred, I suppose you could try to find someone who is an "authority" on papillons to vouch for the fact that he isn't a purebred as DNA tests aren't reliable, then you could try to sue them, but it will likely be very expensive and time consuming for you and if it is a large pet store chain they will have their own in house lawyers who could draw the process out until you run out of money. You could also report them to the better business bureau, but they have no authority to actually make the store comply or respond, your complaint will be added to negative reviews for the store which at least could help sway others to not shop there.

You can also use this experience to help educate others on the pitfalls of shopping at a pet store. There are lots of excellent reputable breeders out there who have purebred puppies with documented pedigrees, health tested parents and who are well kept in family homes where they will begin training and socialization.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

Did you miss the part about my dog dying and me not having much of a choice? My other dog ended up passing away a month ago despite our best efforts to comfort him. I understand that pet stores may not carry the highest breed of dog. I didn't come to this forum to be bashed about my choices - I'm not stupid, I was desperate to help my dog that was left behind. All I wanted was opinions on what people thought about the breed, not to be bashed about buying from a pet store. Wow.


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2012)

Unfortunately, you can't really do anything about your situation now. Not even a civil lawsuit would get you anywhere. You can help prevent other people from making the same mistake, though. A pet store in the mall here closed last year because word got around that they were all puppy mill dogs and what that really means. When the community became educated, the store went out of business.

My boyfriend did something similar. He didn't know *anything* about dogs. Went to a pet store in Chicago to get a pet for his parents and they told him this chihuahua was "purebred from championship lines." It was small and fluffy and cute, so he bought. Paid over $1200 for it. When I came along I was like, "Um. No. That's not how that works. And he looks like a pom x chi mix, so probably not purebred and DEFINITELY not champion bred." I then told him what conditions he was likely born in and what his mother's life was probably like. It took him a while to accept he'd been screwed. He still does have this thing about having "rescued it," though.

The good news is that his parents fell in love with the dog. It's relatively healthy, although very ill-tempered (partly because they didn't train it). So they just accepted what happened and moved on with their lives.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

Gally said:


> Do you have papers from the store that state that he is a purebred? There is a small chance the store might offer to refund you and take the dog back, but it is unlikely they will give you any refund if you intend to keep the dog. There is also the issue of actually proving that he isn't a purebred. If you think you have enough documentation (and you will likely need someone who is an "authority" on papillons to vouch for the fact that he isn't a purebred as DNA tests aren't reliable) then I suppose you could try to sue them, but it will likely be very expensive and time consuming for you and if it is a large pet store chain they will have their own in house lawyers. You could also report them to the better business bureau, but they have no authority to actually make the store comply or respond, your complaint will be added to negative reviews for the store which at least could help sway others to not shop there.
> 
> You can also use this experience to help educate others on the pitfalls of shopping at a pet store. There are lots of excellent reputable breeders out there who have purebred puppies with documented pedigrees, health tested parents and who are well kept in family homes where they will begin training and socialization.


Yes, I have papers stating who the father and mother are and am working with the breeders on this as well. Something went wrong here and I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it. I REALLY appreciate your positive response to my question  No, I wont give him back...we love him and he means a lot to us...we lost 2 dogs in the past 4 months and he is definitely helping us heal I just don't want others to get ripped off... and I would file a small claims suit if needed in order for them to get their act together and be more careful so that this sort of thing doesn't happen in the future. Yes, you're right... I will for sure urge people to do their homework in the future but in my case, I was in a hurry and had no time to shop around... our dog that was left behind had cushings disease and was really touch and go for a couple of years and we were afraid he'd "die of a broken heart" ...which tragically happened 2 months to the day his pal passed away. Thanks again for your words!


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2012)

papijack said:


> Did you miss the part about my dog dying and me not having much of a choice? My other dog ended up passing away a month ago despite our best efforts to comfort him. I understand that pet stores may not carry the highest breed of dog. I didn't come to this forum to be bashed about my choices - I'm not stupid, I was desperate to help my dog that was left behind. All I wanted was opinions on what people thought about the breed, not to be bashed about buying from a pet store. Wow.



If it's purebred, it looks ill bred to me. It doesn't fit all of the breed standard, afaik. But I would be much more worried that its parents didn't have genetic health testing. The dog may be susceptible to a lot of problems because it's inbred too much.

It may also be a mix. I don't know.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

hounddawg said:


> Unfortunately, you can't really do anything about your situation now. Not even a civil lawsuit would get you anywhere. You can help prevent other people from making the same mistake, though. A pet store in the mall here closed last year because word got around that they were all puppy mill dogs and what that really means. When the community became educated, the store went out of business.
> 
> My boyfriend did something similar. He didn't know *anything* about dogs. Went to a pet store in Chicago to get a pet for his parents and they told him this chihuahua was "purebred from championship lines." It was small and fluffy and cute, so he bought. Paid over $1200 for it. When I came along I was like, "Um. No. That's not how that works. And he looks like a pom x chi mix, so probably not purebred and DEFINITELY not champion bred." I then told him what conditions he was likely born in and what his mother's life was probably like. It took him a while to accept he'd been screwed. He still does have this thing about having "rescued it," though.
> 
> The good news is that his parents fell in love with the dog. It's relatively healthy, although very ill-tempered (partly because they didn't train it). So they just accepted what happened and moved on with their lives.


Thanks for sharing, I appreciate it! It would be a small claims suit, not civil (under $5k here in MN). I litigated for almost 20 years so that's nothing new. I'm not mad that I didn't get a papillon...I'm mad that I paid for one. I love our little Cooper more than anything! I'm not all about champion breeds, etc...that doesn't matter to me.... we were hoping that by getting him from the pet store that he'd potentially have less problems, etc. Guess what I'll never do again?  Thanks again for your input!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

papijack said:


> Did you miss the part about my dog dying and me not having much of a choice? My other dog ended up passing away a month ago despite our best efforts to comfort him. I understand that pet stores may not carry the highest breed of dog. I didn't come to this forum to be bashed about my choices - I'm not stupid, I was desperate to help my dog that was left behind. All I wanted was opinions on what people thought about the breed, not to be bashed about buying from a pet store. Wow.


No one is bashing you. But if you want us to argue that desperation, or a pet store is a good place to buy a dog, well, we can't align our opinions to make you or your dog feel better, sorry. Really, I think we're doing our best to help. Perhaps you need to take a step back to realize this.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

hounddawg said:


> If it's purebred, it looks ill bred to me. It doesn't fit all of the breed standard, afaik. But I would be much more worried that its parents didn't have genetic health testing. The dog may be susceptible to a lot of problems because it's inbred too much.
> 
> It may also be a mix. I don't know.


That is precisely what I'm afraid of and what we were trying to avoid in the beginning. The breeder just sent me photos of the mom and dad and they look nothing like my puppy... the "dad" is 9 pounds and the mom is 7 pounds. Mine is 13 lbs and only 5 months old. I just hope he'll be healthy ....


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

Curbside Prophet said:


> No one is bashing you. But if you want us to argue that desperation, or a pet store is a good place to buy a dog, well, we can't align our opinions to make you or your dog feel better, sorry. Really, I think we're doing our best to help. Perhaps you need to take a step back to realize this.


I never asked you to argue with me about anything. I never said a pet store was a good place to buy a pet. Regardless of what you think, I didn't have time to hand pick a dog of my choice from a highly rated breeder (which do NOT exist in my area!)... I was worried about my 12 year old cocker spaniel who just lost his best friend. So enough with this whole pet shop thing already. I came on here to ask people's opinion about whether they feel this is a purebred, not who they felt about me shopping at a pet store. Thanks for your concern.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

That's all fine, but you can not guide how other people respond. I choose what I reply too, like you chose what to post. No harm, no foul, nothing to get upset about, or to be accusatory of. People make the same choices you did everyday, so at the very least, this thread, this forum, can be an education to them, more so than it may be for you. The purebred issue is not consequential to me, but you need to accept the perspective of others to see that. I do hope you find what you're looking for. Really, I do.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

One of my mother in law's pomeranians she purchased from a petstore turned out to be a papillion mix. I'd be kind of mad too, but, as others have said, what do you expect buying from a petstore? That however is besides the point. The dog here doesn't look like a pure blooded papillion to me, however it very well could be and is just a poorly bred one. Given petstore puppies come from mills, that wouldn't be a surprise.

He's super cute! I'd just let it go and stay away from buying puppies from petstores in the future.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

RCloud said:


> One of my mother in law's pomeranians she purchased from a petstore turned out to be a papillion mix. I'd be kind of mad too, but, as others have said, what do you expect buying from a petstore? That however is besides the point. The dog here doesn't look like a pure blooded papillion to me, however it very well could be and is just a poorly bred one. Given petstore puppies come from mills, that wouldn't be a surprise.
> 
> He's super cute! I'd just let it go and stay away from buying puppies from petstores in the future.



Yes, definitely wont be buying from a petstore again. The sad part is, the Pet Store is throwing the breeder under the bus and taking no responsibility for anything at all. I'm a very honest and loyal person.. I run a large company of my own and the last thing I'd ever do is take advantage of anyone ... or treat my customers with deception and a lack of respect. This pet store in question is the only one within a 2 hour radius of me ... if anyone catches wind that a mix was sold as a purebred, I think they will have a lot of questions to answer from others. I know now I can't trust pet stores but I also know I can't trust any breeders in my area ...guess I'll have to travel afar next time. I had some correspondence back from the breeder today... I sent a couple of photos of my puppy and their response was "I'm not sure what happened here"... ...so... it looks like I'm not throwing my time away on this and that this will get resolved. They were a little stuck after sending me photos of the mother and father and neither looked like my dog. 

Thanks, I think he's super cute too and we love him dearly....dogs can repair deep wounds.. and with the loss of our two dear dogs this year, we needed to extra TLC he's brought into our lives!! Thanks again!


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

One might say the pet store got taken by the breeder that gave them the dog. The breeder assured them to dog was purebred. Still no good breeder sells their puppies to petstores to be resold, that shows a serious lack of any sort of care of what happens to their puppies beyond how much money they can get for them.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

He doesn't look pure to me, no.
If he is purebred, he's poorly bred.
Don't bother with the heated discussion to the pet shop, if you wanted a guaranteed purebred dog you should have gone to a breeder. Pet shops often get their dogs from puppy mills so they can't guarantee breed.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

Keechak said:


> One might say the pet store got taken by the breeder that gave them the dog. The breeder assured them to dog was purebred. Still no good breeder sells their puppies to petstores to be resold, that shows a serious lack of any sort of care of what happens to their puppies beyond how much money they can get for them.


Amen! After reading more about the breeder, I noticed that this breeder sells puppies to 12 different pet stores...MN, NE, SD, WI, ND, IA and Canada. They sell 18 different breeds along with "designer breeds". When I read all of that, it made me sick. You're right, the breeder is definitely the one at fault here but the Pet Store is the one I paid so they need to be involved too. I'd think they'd want to be involved for the sake of their reputation. 

Yeah, they as breeders should have been able to tell something wasn't right before they even brought the dog to the pet store. I didn't know the difference in a baby papillon ... I do now though! 

Thanks for your response. It's nice to get feedback!


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I'm sorry for the loss of your other dog, and hope this little fella works out well for you.



papijack said:


> so instead of rushing out and grabbing any dog we could find, we opted to go to a pet shop to get a purebred.


I dunno, getting a dog from a pet store is pretty much the definition of rushing out and grabbing any dog. Even dogs from shelters often have more health and temperament testing that that. He really doesn't look purebred, but honestly, I'd just be happy he's healthy and good-natured, given the circumstances under which he was acquired (and probably under which he was bred), and chalk it up as a lesson learned.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

papijack said:


> I also know I can't trust any breeders in my area


What brought you to this conclusion?


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

BostonBullMama said:


> He doesn't look pure to me, no.
> If he is purebred, he's poorly bred.
> Don't bother with the heated discussion to the pet shop, if you wanted a guaranteed purebred dog you should have gone to a breeder. Pet shops often get their dogs from puppy mills so they can't guarantee breed.


I was at least insightful enough to get papers on the dog which guaranteed his lineage. The puppy came from an area breeder - so one can't just go to any breeder I guess. I guess the ticket is to do a lot of research on all of the area breeders to see which are puppy mills and which aren't. Thanks for the feedback!


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

papijack said:


> Amen! After reading more about the breeder, I noticed that this breeder sells puppies to 12 different pet stores...MN, NE, SD, WI, ND, IA and Canada. They sell 18 different breeds along with "designer breeds". When I read all of that, it made me sick. You're right, the breeder is definitely the one at fault here but the Pet Store is the one I paid so they need to be involved too. I'd think they'd want to be involved for the sake of their reputation.
> 
> Yeah, they as breeders should have been able to tell something wasn't right before they even brought the dog to the pet store. I didn't know the difference in a baby papillon ... I do now though!
> 
> Thanks for your response. It's nice to get feedback!


Yeah, that sounds like a classic puppy mill. And in that case, they don't give two licks about anything but money. Honestly, they either just carelessly bred two way off-standard paps together or they knew it was a mix and didn't care, thinking no one would be able to prove it and they would get more money labeling it 'pure'. Puppy millers bring out my rage face.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

parus said:


> What brought you to this conclusion?


I shouldn't have said "any", should have said "most". However...as this discussion is unfolding, I think I'd have been better off going to an area breeder over the pet shop! I've heard too many horror stories about some of the area breeders and the conditions in which they are breeding. The good news is- I don't plan on getting another dog for a long time so I'll have plenty of time to research!


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

papijack said:


> I was at least insightful enough to get papers on the dog which guaranteed his lineage.


Unfortunately, purebred and well-bred are two entirely separate concepts.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

Effisia said:


> Yeah, that sounds like a classic puppy mill. And in that case, they don't give two licks about anything but money. Honestly, they either just carelessly bred two way off-standard paps together or they knew it was a mix and didn't care, thinking no one would be able to prove it and they would get more money labeling it 'pure'. Puppy millers bring out my rage face.


I agree with you completely. I do have some recourse though- I paid via credit card. I've never in my life done a charge back but have been advised that I should do so in this situation. I'd rather do that and donate money to the local animal shelter than allow them to take advantage of people!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Honestly I think you're going to have to just chalk this up to "lesson learned." Nobody can tell you for sure if he is or isn't a purebred by looking at him and pictures of his parents, genetics are weird and dogs from mills aren't always in standard so I'm not really sure how you expect to make a claim against the store or breeder?


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

papijack said:


> I agree with you completely. I do have some recourse though- I paid via credit card. I've never in my life done a charge back but have been advised that I should do so in this situation. I'd rather do that and donate money to the local animal shelter than allow them to take advantage of people!


"Been advised" by whom? You paid for a puppy, you have a puppy. Unless you can prove the documents are fake, there's no basis for a chargeback.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

parus said:


> "Been advised" by whom? You paid for a puppy, you have a puppy. Unless you can prove the documents are fake, there's no basis for a chargeback.


I agree.
This is one of those "lesson learned" sort of deals. You wanted a dog, you got a dog...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

You're going to reverse the charges and keep the puppy? Really? 

The pet store can charge whatever price they like for the puppy. Just because you didn't like the price it doesn't mean you're entitled to get your money back AND keep the puppy. That's essentially stealing.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

papijack said:


> I agree with you completely. I do have some recourse though- I paid via credit card. I've never in my life done a charge back but have been advised that I should do so in this situation. I'd rather do that and donate money to the local animal shelter than allow them to take advantage of people!


Why didn't you just get a pup from the shelter in the first place, in that case? It's not my intention to sound rude, I'm genuinely curious.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

To answer some questions- I tried to get a dog from the only local shelter we have. It's a small shelter and I'm happy to report that there weren't any available at the time (happy for the dogs, not me!). I would never have paid $600 for a dog unless it was purebred or at least certified. I'd have paid $3,000 for a purebred had I had more time to do research - the situation didn't allow ..and my dogs death is a testament to that. I'm happy to pay a couple of hundred for a mix/unknown breed if it was a good fit for us and I never said I wanted the entire amount back- I don't know if I can do a partial chargeback or not but that is something I'll look into. If I sold you a Mercedes Benz for $50,000 and you got it home and opened up the hood and it had a chevy engine in it, you'd be doing the same thing... you would be fine with paying the price for a chevy engine but would not pay the price of a Mercedes for a Chevy...that's pretty simple. 

I've never stole a penny in my life and don't intend to start. This is clearly a situation of a breeder and/or a pet shop getting caught up in wrong doing. After I sent a photo of my puppy today, even the breeder said he/she wasn't sure what was going on. So this is no longer a case of me assuming anything - if I wasn't certain it wasn't purebred (even if POORLY bred), I wouldn't even be going down this road. $1,000 isn't much to me but it is to some people and I don't think it's fair that they would do this to someone down the road who would really be affected by this.

Anyway- I'll get this resolved. Thanks to those with constructive words and thoughts on the subject, I sincerely do appreciate it. I understand that some people have strong opinions and I guess I will be more callus to that in the future.

Best wishes!


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

sassafras said:


> You're going to reverse the charges and keep the puppy? Really?
> 
> The pet store can charge whatever price they like for the puppy. Just because you didn't like the price it doesn't mean you're entitled to get your money back AND keep the puppy. That's essentially stealing.


You are right, they can charge whatever they want for a puppy but what they can't do is misrepresent and trick people into paying higher prices because they are labeling mixed breeds as purebred. That's illegal. Because he was "purebred" they required me to do a full vet-check within 3 days of purchase, which I did. I also bought a training collar for small dogs (not puppies- one with an expandable collar, however, the contacts are small) for $160 plus a bunch of other stuff that the pet store "required" us to do. I'm not in this to rip anyone off- quite the opposite actually... I just want to do what's right so that they can't rip anyone else off - like I said, I'd gladly donate every time to the local shelter AND pay a fair price for a mix breed.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

So to get this straight, you're certain the dog isn't technically purebred, going by appearance and the word of a breeder who sells to pet shops, neither of which is reliable. And you consider it highly important to have a purebred dog, but without concern for the actual breeding of the dog beyond that both parents were registered Paps. And at the risk of dredging up the difficulties of your previous dog's death...how was getting a new puppy supposed to help that dog make it? Or pass peacefully? These pet shop operators do seem hella shady, and it'd be a great idea to put in a complaint with the BBB, and on various recommendation sites so people might be warned about them, but you also really need to look to your own role in how the situation arose, so as to avoid these problems in the future.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

papijack said:


> Because he was "purebred" they required me to do a full vet-check within 3 days of purchase, which I did.


What? Why would a purebred need a vet check but not a mixed breed? A puppy is a puppy.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

papijack said:


> If I sold you a Mercedes Benz for $50,000 and you got it home and opened up the hood and it had a chevy engine in it, you'd be doing the same thing... you would be fine with paying the price for a chevy engine but would not pay the price of a Mercedes for a Chevy...that's pretty simple.


But I wouldn't demand my money back AND keep the car.



papijack said:


> You are right, they can charge whatever they want for a puppy but what they can't do is misrepresent and trick people into paying higher prices because they are labeling mixed breeds as purebred. That's illegal.


You've _decided_ that's what they're doing, but you don't really have evidence that's what they're doing. There are lots of out of standard dogs out there that don't really look all that much like their breed. And genetics are weird, parents can throw some weird looking puppies. 

Don't get me wrong, pet stores and puppy mills are super sketchy places to get puppies. But that's where you chose to get a puppy, so why would a puppy from somewhere sketchy look like a show-bred pap?


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

parus said:


> So to get this straight, you're certain the dog isn't technically purebred, going by appearance and the word of a breeder who sells to pet shops, neither of which is reliable. And you consider it highly important to have a purebred dog, but without concern for the actual breeding of the dog beyond that both parents were registered Paps. And at the risk of dredging up the difficulties of your previous dog's death...how was getting a new puppy supposed to help that dog make it? Or pass peacefully? These pet shop operators do seem hella shady, and it'd be a great idea to put in a complaint with the BBB, and on various recommendation sites so people might be warned about them, but you also really need to look to your own role in how the situation arose, so as to avoid these problems in the future.


1) I knew nothing about pet shops when I ventured into this - that was my own mistake but at that time I didn't know. 2) It wasn't highly important for me to have a purebred dog, my husband wanted a purebred dog and was under the impression that we'd have better luck with buying a purebred from a pet store rather than getting an "inbred" dog from a local breeder. Guess he's learned a lesson or two from this too now! 3) We lost our 15 year old cocker spaniel, Brittney, on February 26th, 2014 to cancer, she went very quickly after we were told about the cancerous tumor. She was the dominant dog and after her passing, our other cocker spaniel, Sam, quit eating and cried day and night...clearly depressed. Sam had Cushings Disease and was very delicate ...he couldn't afford to lose any weight, etc. and we were pretty desperate to provide any distraction to him and our three little girls to help ease the pain and depression of the situation. I certainly wasn't ready for a new puppy but sometimes you do selfless things to help others during tough times. I had done this in the past when Brittney lost her mate and she too went through a depression and it was the vet who recommended a companion for her...we got the companion (Sam) and Brittney pulled out of her depression and was back to her old self in no time. SO.. that is why we went out and bought a new puppy for Sam ... and unfortunately it didn't work and Sam continued to be depressed without his Brittney and he died 2 months to the day after Brittney died. He truly died of a broken heart. God definitely had his hand in us getting Cooper...he knew how much we'd need him with what was coming. You are right, I need to file a complaint with the BBB. I just went to buy a puppy... I never intended on having all of this happen nor do I have time for any of this. I came on here to get opinions on his breed because I assumed that there were a lot of purebred pet owners that visited this site. I received more than I asked and I guess shame on me for asking in the first place. Make no mistake- I wont be buying from a Pet Shop ever again .. I've learned more about breeders, pet shops, pure breds, lineage, etc over the past 3 months than most people learn in a lifetime. I'm quite aware now that buying from a pet shop isn't acceptable. I respect everyones opinion on here and I hope they can respect mine as well. I run a company of my own and we get ripped off daily by customers so it's with great caution that I've approached this situation.... I didn't wake up yesterday thinking we were duked... this has been going on for three months now... I waited this long to give everyone the benefit of the doubt because I'm not one to be unfair.

Anyway- thanks for the replies.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

parus said:


> What? Why would a purebred need a vet check but not a mixed breed? A puppy is a puppy.


I assume they probably require that for any animal that leaves their place. He wasn't ready for shots yet so I had to make/pay a special appointment within that three day period to have him checked out. Just a policy of theirs...even though they claim that they are checked by their vets on a regular basis. Not sure what the point of it is but I did what they asked.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

sassafras said:


> But I wouldn't demand my money back AND keep the car.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gah.. you aren't reading what I'm writing. I am more than willing to pay something for him!! I'm not a crook, geez!! 

I'm not interested in arguing about this anymore. I have nothing to prove, they do. I don't want to waste your time with this anymore so I'll just accept your opinions as opinions and move on. I do appreciate your input though!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

papijack said:


> Gah.. you aren't reading what I'm writing. I am more than willing to pay something for him!! I'm not a crook, geez!!
> 
> I'm not interested in arguing about this anymore. I have nothing to prove, they do. I don't want to waste your time with this anymore so I'll just accept your opinions as opinions and move on. I do appreciate your input though!


I understand that you are willing to pay some amount of money that is less than his purchase price. A price that you don't get to dictate because you have decided they misrepresented his breed based on vague speculation.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I completely get why you're upset, I really do. Pet stores charge a LOT of money for puppies advertised as purebreds, often times just as much if not MORE than if you were to go to a breeder. To find out you didn't get what you paid for is infuriating. If you didn't know just how sketchy petstores were before, you know it now. The problem with wanting a refund while keeping the puppy, even if it's a partial refund, is it would be very hard to do so without proof that the dog is indeed a mix. You'd have to get a pedigree on the dog from the breeder, going back several generations and see what his background is. He very well may be a fullblooded pap, and just not to breed standard. It happens. And if that is the case, the petstore would have been well within their rights, as you essentially got what you paid for. A purebred, even if poorly bred, is still a purebred. 

The effort you'd be going through to get anything out of this is going to be a HUGE pain for you. Far more than it would be worth in my opinion. If you're happy with the dog, I'd just let it go and use it as a lesson learned and to warn others who may be thinking about getting a puppy from a store.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

To be honest, if I were to give an educated guess I would bet that that dog is actually purebred just very out of standard. I've seen some purebred paps way out of standard. Even moreso than yours.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

im trying to figure out how another dog was supposed to fix everything magically. And why you went to a pet.store.if health is a priority. Also all purebred dogs are inbred to an extent.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Kayota said:


> im trying to figure out how another dog was supposed to fix everything magically. And why you went to a pet.store.if health is a priority. Also all purebred dogs are inbred to an extent.


Yea... this pretty much sums up my thoughts too...


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## greenmaria (Oct 9, 2013)

Our previous dog was a supposedly purebred Golden Retriever. I knew nothing about breeders or dogs, and we bought him from a horrible back-yard-breeder situation. I mean, tons of dirty puppies running around an ugly back yard, playing in a kiddie pool of old water. But I fell in love with the runt, and that was that. I've learned a lot since then.

Anyway, when we brought him to the vet, she said he was so malnourished and sickly that she wasn't sure he would make it. She was appalled about the fact that he was from a "breeder." And then, when he was less than a year old, we found out he had horrible hip dysplasia, so bad that by 8 months old he was having trouble getting up from a lying down position. We paid a ton of money for expensive hip surgery. 

He was always an amazing dog, but we are fairly sure he wasn't purebred at all, and he clearly wasn't well cared for as a pup or bred correctly. The thing is: He was the best dog ever. Like seriously. I wouldn't go back in time and do it over because he ended up being the perfect dog for us. 

Long story short: I get that you're mad. And I understand why. I've learned, though, that holding onto anger is horrible for YOU. Chances are you won't get anything from this pet shop unless you are willing to pay a ton of money for professional DNA testing (not the Wisdom Panel kind) and a lawyer, and in the meantime, you'll be suffering emotionally from it all. Let it go. Your dog is sweet and amazing, and even though he might not be what you thought he was, if he's making you happy, it's all good. The furthest I'd go is filing with the BBB. Other than that, it's not worth the mental agony you'll go through.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Just for reference, this is my previous Boston Terrier. I met both her parents and she is pure bred but horribly, horribly out of standard.










I wouldn't be surprised if your pup is pure. Dogs can be weird.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Sorry guys didn't read all 3pgs, but was wondering could the OP have a Phalene? 

Nice dog by the way.


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## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

He looks nothing like papillon to me... Just a cute looking mixed breed dog.


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

Well he's definitely Papillon, but I would agree that he looks mixed with something else. 
He's super cute though! 
You're taking a risk of getting a mix/ poorly bred purebred when deciding to purchase from a pet store.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Am I the only person concerned that she's using a shock collar on a 3 month old puppy?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

You can do a DNA test to prove that he is actually a puppy from the two parents they said he was. That may not prove whether he is purebred or not but would prove if those two were his parents. Since papers were issued to him saying they were his parents, you would have a case if they were not.


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> Am I the only person concerned that she's using a shock collar on a 3 month old puppy?


Oh THAT'S what she meant by "training collar." Didn't catch that.


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## Gooser (Jun 2, 2014)

Theyve gone down in price as well. Last I heared you could have them done for $65


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> Am I the only person concerned that she's using a shock collar on a 3 month old puppy?


Oh goodness. I was wondering why a collar would have cost that much... No, you're not the only one who's concerned about that.


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## sarahspins (Apr 6, 2009)

papijack said:


> so instead of rushing out and grabbing any dog we could find, we opted to go to a pet shop to get a purebred. I also spent a ton of money on training collars, etc. that are for "small dogs"...well guess what? The collars aren't strong enough because he .. isn't a small dog. Very frustrating!


I am just absolutely appalled by this statement - don't you realize that "rushing out and grabbing any dog we could find" is EXACTLY what you did! The fact that you only realized after the fact that buying a "purebred" dog from a pet store might not be the best idea and you feel like were duped and paid too much for your dog only reinforces this fact - had you done ANY research at all you'd have known what you were doing. I don't doubt for one second that your dog is "purebred" - it almost certainly is because those puppy mills do often keep meticulous records, but what he isn't, is a well-bred dog - no puppy mill takes the time to evaluate their breeding dogs for confirmation to a given standard, they are simply a means of producing a product, and more often than not it’s going to be a very poor representation of the breed because they are likely starting with the product of other puppy mills - no good breeder in their right might would EVER sell to a puppy mill, so where do you think these places are getting their breeding dogs? Again, it's not the puppy mill's fault or the pet store's fault that you purchased a poor quality dog - because no one forced you to spend your money, and I seriously doubt that they grossly misrepresented the dog. Considering a chargeback on your credit card over this is technically fraud on your part, and it is illegal. If you paid for a dog and didn't receive one, or if it died of something that was the fault of the pet store, then absolutely you should do a chargeback, but 2 months later when you realize you were an idiot and paid too much for a poor quality dog is not. 

Second, the "training collar" thing - what absolutely astounds me, is that instead of posting seeking help for whatever issue(s) may have led you down the "training collar" path (which IMO is just completely inappropriate for a 3-5 month old puppy, of ANY breed), you're simply posting because you're upset you got "ripped off” and paid too much for a poor quality dog - sorry, but that's the unfortunate consequence of impulse purchasing a puppy from a pet store. It would be like buying a car, and then realizing two months later that you paid too much and could have gotten a much better deal somewhere else - it's not the dealer's responsibility to refund you any money, it's YOUR responsibility to do that research before you make the purchase. The fact that none of your prior posts have asked about any training issues... yet you bring it up here because you feel like you've "wasted money” buying products that haven’t worked - well, honestly, what did you expect? Relying on something like a shock collar to "train" your pet instead of taking the time and effort to do it correctly is also a sign of your impulse decision making and impatience with proper procedures.

Third, you got this puppy because your remaining dog was stressed out over the loss of their companion - puppies are about a million times more stressful on a dog than losing another dog is. I am sorry for your losses, but I really don't understand the logic behind "omg we had to get another puppy immediately because our dog was lonely". If your dog is lonely then YOU need to spend more time with it, you can't expect a new puppy to fill the void. A puppy in the house likely only added stress to this dog's remaining time, and potentially made it much shorter. It seems like the fact that you’re only now coming to the forum for help after losing your other dog makes it clear that you bought this puppy for your other dog, not for yourselves.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Everyone else pretty much covered everything I was going to say. But yeah.....it's quite possible that your dog is a badly bred purebred. And if that is the case, there is really nothing you can do in regards to the Petstore where you purchased her. Did you get any registration papers with the puppy? If not, you really have no argument nor any way to prove one way or the other that it is a purebred. 

My male is a rescue who came from a puppymill. He is out of breed standard due to his poor breeding. And also, his mom and dad may very likely still be creating puppies that are most likely sold to Petstores or sold online. That's just the nature of the beast. No decent, respectible breeder would ever send a puppy to a Petstore. Ever. And Petsore owners couldn't care less about the quality or condition of the puppies that they sell. If they did, they wouldn't be in that kind of business. 

If you spoke to the "breeder" and he/she sent you pictures of the "parents", I would be quite distrustful of that. He/she probably went out back or into the basement where he/she keeps the filthy cages full of breeding stock and brought two of them inside to take a photo of. Likely not even your dog's parents. For example, the Amish puppymillers are notorious for keeping one healthy, well taken care of set of dogs in their home as sort of a cover for the deplorable conditions in their mills. So if someone stops by to buy a cute puppy from a nice Amish family, they have a nice set of dogs to show the visitors. While the rest of their dogs live in sickness, filthy, cramped, abusive conditions. 

Sorry, as you can tell, this is a hot button issue for a lot of people. 

If you needed a puppy right that very second....there are always puppies in shelters or rescues. I just did a Petfinder search in my local area and several puppies are located nearby.

Lastly, I won't even comment on the horrible idea of using a shock collar on a 3 month old puppy. A BABY.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

It's threads like these that make me recommend this book:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PEE9A9P4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg
The book is quite old, but still so valid.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

hounddawg said:


> Oh THAT'S what she meant by "training collar." Didn't catch that.


He was 5 months old, it was a "small breed" collar and we first tested it out on our bare skin before deciding if we would have him wear it. He was always leashed, however, he would wait by the door and the second my kids opened up the door he would dart outside and run right into the road. The collar I purchases specifically said for 6 months and up ... and he was 5 months and it was for a "small breed" and even on the highest level, it was nothing against my bare skin ..and apparently even less through all of his fur because it doesn't even affect him I'm the last person in the world that would hurt an animal, trust me on that. We now have an underground system to keep him from getting ran over.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, it must do *something* unpleasant if it works to keep him from doing something :/. Obviously keeping him in the yard means it affaects him. I'm not really against underground fences in general, although I think they're a bad idea for in town or yards under an acre, but I certainly understand what they do. Don't kid yourself. Is it one where you press the button and zap him or just the automatic one for the underground fence? I don't think most people use the button kind properly.

Just because something is physically safe does not mean it can't cause mental problems.


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> Everyone else pretty much covered everything I was going to say. But yeah.....it's quite possible that your dog is a badly bred purebred. And if that is the case, there is really nothing you can do in regards to the Petstore where you purchased her. Did you get any registration papers with the puppy? If not, you really have no argument nor any way to prove one way or the other that it is a purebred.
> 
> My male is a rescue who came from a puppymill. He is out of breed standard due to his poor breeding. And also, his mom and dad may very likely still be creating puppies that are most likely sold to Petstores or sold online. That's just the nature of the beast. No decent, respectible breeder would ever send a puppy to a Petstore. Ever. And Petsore owners couldn't care less about the quality or condition of the puppies that they sell. If they did, they wouldn't be in that kind of business.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I appreciate your comment! Also, I didn't use a shock collar on a 3 month old puppy ..just want to clear that up. I had him in training courses because he kept bolting out of the hosue when the kids opened the door and would run right out into the street..nearly getting ran over each time. The trainer gave me a recommendation of a collar to purchase (specifically for small breeds with small connectors). My husband and I even tried it out on our own arms to make sure there wasn't going to be a harmful shock coming from it..had that been the case, we wouldn't have considered it. On the highest setting, there was no "shock" but rather a buzz feeling ..and with his fur, he didn't even feel the buzz which meant that it wasn't going to even work to try and distract him on any level. At any rate, we'd never use anything that would hurt our dog, no matter how young or old he/she was. The ending to my story is that we correct about the dog not being a purebred. The pet shop worked with the breeder in getting this resolved. They were willing to give a full refund but we declined and paid $300 for him (as an unknown mix) instead of the $600 we were initially charged. I agree with you on getting a dog from shelter... I was going to do just that and should have never let my husband convince me that getting one from a pet store was safer/better!! Gah!! Many lessons learned


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## papijack (Jun 6, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Well, it must do *something* unpleasant if it works to keep him from doing something :/. Obviously keeping him in the yard means it affaects him. I'm not really against underground fences in general, although I think they're a bad idea for in town or yards under an acre, but I certainly understand what they do. Don't kid yourself. Is it one where you press the button and zap him or just the automatic one for the underground fence? I don't think most people use the button kind properly.
> 
> Just because something is physically safe does not mean it can't cause mental problems.


The training collar made beeping sounds and then would send a buzz/vibration - not a shock! His fur is so thick on his neck that it was obvious that he couldn't even feel the vibration ..his ears did perk up by the sound though which is how we eventually were able to distract him The underground is a beeping sound too - which is all he needs and he wont go any further. Our yard is 2 acres ..so too expensive to fence in which is why we went with the underground system. The neighbors next to us have it too because one of their dogs doesn't like other dogs and will rip them apart .. which is another reason why we could NOT have him darting around into their yard or the street. Our goal is to keep him safe- I'd be devastated if he were to get hit by a car or killed/harmed by another dog. We discussed this with our vet as well.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

papijack said:


> Your ignorance is offensive- you are such a troll. This is the last time I'll visit this forum..


 That's about the only thing I've seen in this thread that constitutes a guarantee.

As far as your trainer recommending a shock collar on a puppy, and you choosing to follow their bad advice -- good grief. That, along with the pet store purchase paints a very vivid picture to me of someone who wants everything done _"yesterday"_. Enough said.


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