# Crate and Rotate....Acceptable or not?



## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Another thread has me thinking about this........In your opinion is crate and rotating an acceptable way to manage a multi dog house hold?(if you feel that you can handle the responsibility)... or is re-homing the only option for dogs that have aggression issues?

your thoughs


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I watched a portion of that show _It's Me or The Dog_, and if memory serves me right, there was a family that had three dogs, and one dog had to be confined to a bedroom, (for most of her life) because she couldn't get along...

They made sure to put up the other dogs several times a day to get her out and so on... But they seemed very overwhelmed with the chore of it...


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

That is tough to think about. But I do believe it can be worked out with out giving a dog away. I'm not sure exactly how your method works. I would crate all of them or at least keep them in separate gated areas of the house/yard.

By crate and rotate, do you mean crate one at a time? If so, that may make matters worse. The uncrated dog could go over to the crated one and tease him. Or if the aggressive one is the one crated, he might become jealous of the other and therefore, be even more aggressive.

While supervised, I would feed them together, take them on walks together, play together, etc. Try to have them do everything together, so maybe they start to get along.

These are just my guesses though, I've never dealt with this kind of situation.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

There are many ways to crate and rotate......and different levels of aggression.

in some situations I know of you could leave one crated in view of the other with no issues...in others the crated dog has to be in another room..every situation is different

as for jealousy...I'm not sure if dogs can/do experience that emotion....the jury is still out on that one for me


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

first of all I am of the opinion that 9 times out of ten a TRULY aggressive dog should not be rehomed. there should be a concerted effort at rehabilitation and the either a. live with a management plan implemented and continued effort at rehab or risk assess the situation and if the risk merits it, put the dog down. there are exceptions to this of course....one being Dog aggression.


in the case of dog aggression I do not think rehoming is nessecary. I think crate and rotate, well thought out with efforts towards management and rehab is the BEST solution.

I think its too risky to rehome an aggressive dog of any kind because of all the unknown factors. plus the implicit liability issue.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

I don't like the idea of crate and rotate. Doesn't seem like a very happy life for anyone. Seems like constant stress and tension and stuff, that really isn't a healthy household atmosphere for anyone. 
Just my personal feeling.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> I don't like the idea of crate and rotate. Doesn't seem like a very happy life for anyone. Seems like constant stress and tension and stuff, that really isn't a healthy household atmosphere for anyone.
> Just my personal feeling.


not really. I've done it before. and its not nessecarily crate one and the other is out then switch.

you identify the comfort threshold of each dog and then enforce that each dog respects the threshold of the other. this can involve a variety of things..depends on the dogs involved.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> I don't like the idea of crate and rotate. Doesn't seem like a very happy life for anyone. Seems like constant stress and tension and stuff, that really isn't a healthy household atmosphere for anyone.
> Just my personal feeling.


What would you suggest as another solution ?

I can only speak from my experience and that of my friends that also rotate....There is very little to no stress....Well as little as with most other normal animal loving homes LOL....I'm sure there are some stressful situations out there but all that I have come across....Its was a normal functioning household...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I think crate/rotate is acceptable, but it's not for me.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

pugmom said:


> What would you suggest as another solution ?
> 
> I can only speak from my experience and that of my friends that also rotate....There is very little to no stress....Well as little as with most other normal animal loving homes LOL....I'm sure there are some stressful situations out there but all that I have come across....Its was a normal functioning household...


I would rehome the aggressive dog to a single-dog household. But my response wasn't aimed at you or your friends. I'm glad you are comfortable with the situation. I couldn't live like that though. Different strokes for different folks.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> I would re-home the aggressive dog to a single-dog household. But my response wasn't aimed at you or your friends. I'm glad you are comfortable with the situation. I couldn't live like that though. Different strokes for different folks.


I didn't think it was...just trying to understand the other side ...I want to understand comments like "I couldn't live like that"...I guess to me that sounds very negative ...


I guess its hard for me to imagine giving up one of my animals...I am attached to all of them and I don't think I could give them up to someone else (unless its was the most dire situation....Like I was homeless or could not afford vet care...etc...)

I've never had to re home an animal..How do you know they are going to a good place? one that will keep them forever?...how many homes are out there that are one dog/animal only? and are also equipped/experienced enough to deal with a dog/animal aggressive dog?

I guess I find it hard to believe that re homing one of my animals is less stressful or easier then managing them in my own home.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> I would rehome the aggressive dog to a single-dog household. But my response wasn't aimed at you or your friends. I'm glad you are comfortable with the situation. I couldn't live like that though. Different strokes for different folks.


there are liability issues there though.


you HAVE to state that the dog is aggressive. you HAVE to state how aggressive the dog is. if you don't you can be sued...if you do you decrease the the amount of available homes. 

shelters will put the dog down or simply warehouse it until it dies. Homes must be above par, qualified and checked up on. 

rehoming an aggressive dog is a long, arduous and risky task. and the dog will suffer sooner or later more often than not. rehoming can work out.....but in most cases I don't see it being worth it..

if you can't for whatever reason c n r..you should pts.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

pugmom said:


> I didn't think it was...just trying to understand the other side ...I want to understand comments like "I couldn't live like that"...I guess to me that sounds very negative ...


Of course it sounds negative, because as I've expressed, I have negative feelings about "crate and rotate"




> I guess its hard for me to imagine giving up one of my animals...I am attached to all of them and I don't think I could give them up to someone else (unless its was the most dire situation....Like I was homeless or could not afford vet care...etc...)
> 
> I've never had to re home an animal..How do you know they are going to a good place? one that will keep them forever?...how many homes are out there that are one dog/animal only? and are also equipped/experienced enough to deal with a dog/animal aggressive dog?
> 
> I guess I find it hard to believe that re homing one of my animals is less stressful or easier then managing them in my own home.


Thats because, obviously for you, it wouldn't be less stressfull. People are different. I couldn't imagine things your way and you can't imagine them my way. Sometimes thats how it is and we just have respect each others feelings 



zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> there are liability issues there though.
> 
> 
> you HAVE to state that the dog is aggressive. you HAVE to state how aggressive the dog is. if you don't you can be sued...if you do you decrease the the amount of available homes.
> ...


We are talking about dog agression, not human agression, so its not that difficult to rehome. And of course you would have to let the adopters know that the dog is aggressive toward other dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> first of all I am of the opinion that 9 times out of ten a TRULY aggressive dog should not be rehomed. there should be a concerted effort at rehabilitation and the either a. live with a management plan implemented and continued effort at rehab or risk assess the situation and if the risk merits it, put the dog down. there are exceptions to this of course....one being Dog aggression.
> 
> 
> in the case of dog aggression I do not think rehoming is nessecary. I think crate and rotate, well thought out with efforts towards management and rehab is the BEST solution.
> ...


Crate and rotate so each dog gets quality of life out time beats the he*l out of PTS or rehoming. Life is too short to worry what dog you rehome even with a pre-warning especially if it gets pushed on another home with no pre-warning. Which has happened before.


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## DogPaw (Jan 11, 2009)

If your talking about dog on dog aggression then it's really not all that hard to re-home to a family that only wants one dog and is aware of the problem. And not all dogs that are aggressive within the home will be that way outside the home. 

But if your talking about dog on people aggression then thats a different story.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> Of course it sounds negative, because as I've expressed, I have negative feelings about "crate and rotate"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone here is not respecting the others feeling?...I'm trying to get insit into why some feel the way they do about this topic so I'm ingaging in a discussion about it...if you don't want to explain why you feel the way you do then fine ...leave the topic to others who will 


I have to disagree about the re homing?...if its so easy to re home an animal why are shelters full of dog/cats/etc?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

SandyPuppy

I am perfectly aware we are speaking of DA. the issues remain the same whether its DA or HA....slightly less with DA but there nonetheless.


I've had to deal with this kind of thing a lot. and im speaking from experience. even if the dog is DA and you DO tell them you can be sued. Shelters and rescues aren't very enthused about taking in a dog that could harm the dogs they already have. and you will still be stuck crating and rotating for an indefinate period of time if you choose to rehome the dog yourself...which with how difficult it can be to rehome a non aggressive dog do you really think an aggressive one has an equal chance?

and what about the kind of person who says they are willing to take an aggro dog? How do you assess if their intentions are pure??

CnR is a management technique. it buys to time to get rehab done or even to rehome.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I guess what I am trying to say is that I get people not wanting the responsibility of DA dog or feeling that they are not experienced enough to handle it....I completely understand that and realize everyone is different in their comfort level

.....what I have a problem with is people thinking that if you crate and rotate that your dogs quality of life suffers ....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MissMutt said:


> I think crate/rotate is acceptable, but it's not for me.


Ditto. I really hope it never comes to that point for me, which is a big reason DA breeds are out for me. I always have many dogs and would just rather not have to crate and rotate.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Ditto. I really hope it never comes to that point for me, which is a big reason DA breeds are out for me. I always have many dogs and would just rather not have to crate and rotate.




but would you?...if for some reason 2 of you guys started to fight would you CandR or re home one?

PS...the dogs in my home that have to be separated are not breeds know to be DA


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Really, PM? Chloe and Bishop don't get along? I always wondered why we seldom see group play shots of all three together.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I'm with Laurelin and MM.

Regardless of whether or not the hassle bothers one, having to crate and rotate does add hassle to a pet care routine. I am someone who would be bothered by the extra hassle.

I would also be constantly concerned I would slip up, causing irreparable damage to one or both dogs.

There was no question of keeping Patrick after he attacked Alvin and the two dogs wouldn't have even been living in the same household. Too much hassle and too much fear.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

1st, through the long time I have been in dogs I have more than once had 2 very nice dogs at the same time that to say the least had personality clashes. Since they were both good dogs, the question of rehoming was never considered. 2 reasons not to rehome number one I liked the dogs, number two why would I want to dump a problem dog or dogs on somebody else. Each dog was kept in their own crate in their own room. We have a small 3 bedroom home and just use one bedroom. Each night one would be loose in home while the rest of us slept(GSDs). It just wasn't a big deal. Both dogs died with us at age 10 and one at 11 so all was good. One added problem is they were strange people aggressive also which I personally liked.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

pugmom said:


> but would you?...if for some reason 2 of you guys started to fight would you CandR or re home one?
> 
> PS...the dogs in my home that have to be separated are not breeds know to be DA


I am not sure. It would highly depend on the situation.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> ^^ Yes, this. ^^
> 
> Regardless of whether or not the hassle bothers one, having to crate and rotate does add hassle to a pet care routine. I am someone who would be bothered by the extra hassle.
> 
> ...



Yes it is an extra hassle....I agree some people are more willing to deal with extras....Like I will probably never own a long hair breed because the thought of having to groom a long haired animal is not very appealing 

There is a risk factor...but its a calculated risk ..just like most things in life
I could slip up and cut off my finger off the next time I chop lettuce for my taco salad...is that going to keep me from eating taco salad? nope I'm just going to continue to be careful 

Some are willing to take certain risks to keep there animals happy I guess....I guess the risk of me slipping up is less scary to me then re homing my dog where any number of things could happen.

Nope chole and bishop do not get along...they lived togther fine for almost 2 yrs then small tiff got bigger and bigger.....their issues aren't the worst I've seen..they can walk together outside...they can be in the same room if someone is sitting with each one...they can meet each other through a gate or fence...they just can't be trusted to run around together


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## DogPaw (Jan 11, 2009)

pugmom said:


> I didn't think it was...just trying to understand the other side ...I want to understand comments like "I couldn't live like that"...I guess to me that sounds very negative ...
> 
> 
> I guess its hard for me to imagine giving up one of my animals...I am attached to all of them and I don't think I could give them up to someone else (unless its was the most dire situation....Like I was homeless or could not afford vet care...etc...)
> ...



I did decide to re-home one of our females. They were both fine with other dogs hated each other. We sought help of a behaviorist, we did extra OB classes did NILIF and nothing seemed to help. We worked with them for over a year. Whenever our male was around them he would run off into a corner and pee. Not something he normally did. I had decided that even if we could get them to tolerate each other there would always be that fear that a fight might break out and these were some vicious fights. They could not be around each other weather it was inside or outside the home. I thought about doing the crate and rotate but I really do believe that all the dogs in the home should be able to come and go as they please without any threats of a fight. 

I didn't want to give her up, it truly broke my heart and it wasn't a decision I made lightly, but I had to think about everyone else in the house. Because it was effecting others in the house. My poor male was so stressed. Believe me when I say it was not an easy decision but one that I felt was the right one for my household. I kept her until I found the right home. This was 3 years ago. We went to visit her after she had been with them for a year and you would of thought she had always been their dog. I knew I had made the right decision. She was happy being the only dog and as for there two, no more running and peeing in the corner, and the other female was much more relaxed. They both were.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

pugmom said:


> I don't think anyone here is not respecting the others feeling?...I'm trying to get insit into why some feel the way they do about this topic so I'm ingaging in a discussion about it...if you don't want to explain why you feel the way you do then fine ...leave the topic to others who will
> 
> 
> I have to disagree about the re homing?...if its so easy to re home an animal why are shelters full of dog/cats/etc?


I'm not trying to be difficult or withhold anything from you Pugmom. I simply can't think of any way to explain it to you. There is no reason other than the reasons I already gave you. People just feel differently sometimes and the other person is not always going to "get it". I also was not implying that anyone was not respecting others feelings. I was just trying to say that its not something that can be further explained and you either get it or you don't. I don't know why you are responding so negatively to something that is simply the way I feel. It is what it is. You asked for opinions and I posted mine. 

About the rehoming. I didn't say it is easy to rehome every animal in every situation. There are animals in shelters for zillions of different reasons.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Hmm...I wouldn't like crating and rotating for sure, and I'm not sure I could do it. My household can be pretty overwhelming with two kids, four dogs, cats, and a full time job, it seems like the added stress of trying to keep two or more of my dogs away from eachother would push me to a breaking point. BUT, if any of my dogs developed an issue with eachother I'm not sure I could rehome any of them at this point either, so....do I think it's acceptable, yes...could I do it, I don't know.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

If my two decided they hated each other to the point they were constantly trying to kill each other, I think Mia would go back to her breeder. It just wouldn't work any other way. It would be heartbreaking for me, but I don't think either of them would enjoy living a crate and rotate lifestyle.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

DogPaw said:


> I did decide to re-home one of our females. They were both fine with other dogs hated each other. We sought help of a behaviorist, we did extra OB classes did NILIF and nothing seemed to help. We worked with them for over a year. Whenever our male was around them he would run off into a corner and pee. Not something he normally did. I had decided that even if we could get them to tolerate each other there would always be that fear that a fight might break out. I thought about doing the crate and rotate but I really do believe that all the dogs in the home should be able to come and go as they please without any threats of a fight.
> 
> I didn't want to give her up, it truly broke my heart and it wasn't a decision I made lightly, but I had to think about everyone else in the house. Because it was effecting others in the house. My poor male was so stressed. Believe me when I say it was not an easy decision but one that I felt was the right one for my household. I kept her until I found the right home. This was 3 years ago. We went to visit her after she had been with them for a year and you would of thought she had always been their dog. I knew I had made the right decision. She was happy being the only dog and the other 2 we had were better off also. No more running and peeing in the corner, and the other female was much more relaxed.


Sounds like a situation that worked out for the best!......Its great that you found someone that was ok to take a DA dog or prone to DA dog..that you could also keep in touch with....Sounds like very lucky dog

If you don't mind explaining what you mean by "coming and going as they please"


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

pugmom said:


> There is a risk factor...but its a calculated risk ..just like most things in life
> I could slip up and cut off my finger off the next time I chop lettuce for my taco salad...is that going to keep me from eating taco salad? nope I'm just going to continue to be careful


Except that I can actually calculate that risk. Given my adeptness with a knife and my understanding of how to chop lettuce, I would say that my chances of getting a small cut are very slim. The chances of me taking my entire finger off are zero, barring an unexpected happening that might cause me to slip. I can never calculate the risk of my dogs trying to kill each other because they are essentially two unknowns. If I were to slip up and leave a dog out when it was supposed to be in or feed someone in the wrong place at the wrong time or whatever, I would have absolutely no idea if this would be the time they would attack or if I they would be okay until I was able to contain them as I was supposed to.



pugmom said:


> Some are willing to take certain risks to keep there animals happy I guess....I guess the risk of me slipping up is less scary to me then re homing my dog where any number of things could happen.


Oops, careful! You seem to be suggesting that owners who would prefer not to crate and rotate do not care about their animals' happiness. If I had to rehome a pet for any reason, I would not place it somewhere "where any number of things could happen." I would be very sad to let a dog go, but there would be no "scary" about it.



pugmom said:


> Nope chole and bishop do not get along...they lived togther fine for almost 2 yrs then small tiff got bigger and bigger.....their issues aren't the worst I've seen..they can walk together outside...they can be in the same room if someone is sitting with each one...they can meet each other through a gate or fence...they just can't be trusted to run around together


This is not a form of crate and rotate that would bother me. I have had any number of animals who could not engage in a particular activity together...they couldn't eat side by side, they couldn't play in the yard together if toys were involved. I never used a crating and rotating for this. To me, "crate and rotate" implies that the dogs cannot be in each other's company and must therefore be fully contained or separated.


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## Toby4Life (Jun 2, 2008)

I wouldn't like it but I would if I had to. To date the boys get along well and I surely hope it doesn't come to that. HOWEVER, if it did I would do everything in my power to CNR and keep both. If there is no possible way to make it work (the SO is home with them during the day so a lot of responsibility would fall on her) than I would consider rehoming the one w/o the issue. I couldn't rehome an agressive dog (human or dog). I wouldn't want to give someone else that burden and I would only trust myselft to manage it apporpriately in a single dog household for the remainder of his life.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

just an example


a couple i know has two dogs that dont get along. they are cool with each other as long as they leave each other alone so what they do is the husband takes responsiblity for one dog and the wife takes responsibility for the other. each dog pretty much has free reign of the house as long as they stay withing in sight of their respective persons. they wear one footer leashes as drags too.

its the same concept as CnR

there are degrees and it really does depend on the particular situation. My point is that i dont think people should automatically jump to rehome/pts. My point is that the situation should be thoroughly analyzed first.


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## jnite (Jan 18, 2009)

I think CnR is acceptable if the person feels comfortable doing it. Some people just won't ever feel comfortable with it and why make your whole household unhappy if it just won't work for you?

I have a situation where my rescue chihuahua has to be in a kennel if nobody is able to watch him. It is not because of any agression, but he will pee on anything if you don't keep a very close eye on him. Do I like that he is in the kennel when we are at work or gone? NO But it is a solution for us and he doesn't have to be pts or rehomed. I had this problem passed on to me and I REFUSE to pass the problem on to somebody else. 

I know it isn't the same problem that is being discussed but it is similar and I always say that you should try everything possible before giving up.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I just got into this debate on my pit bull forum. There are a bunch of DIE HARD CNR fans. Believe whole heartedly that it is totally the way to go with a DA multi dog household. I was one of the only ones who would rather re-home the DA dog (given that was his only issue) so that he had a fair chance at a whole lifetime of fredom and love all his own (and believe me it would have to be a very open adoption where I could get constant updates and see him occasionally). 

My arguement was "at what point do you have to draw the line of saying ok rehoming this one (that is causing the other 3 (or however many) to get all upset when normally with out his presence are well behaved) is going to prevent any of these dogs from spending 8-12 hours in a crate and rotate life then is it worth the stress of rehoming for that dog (ie new family, new routine, etc) versus how much stress is it going to cause him to stay here and live in a CNR environment because of his behavior"? 

Needless to say I got blasted from the rest of the membership because I would rather let a dog go than make it suffer life in a cage. If it's dog aggressive then obviously mother nature programmed him to prefer a solitary existance and who am I do say "NO... you HAVE to stay here and live with these other dogs and myself because a responsible owner would never rehome a DA dog". It could be the magic bullet for that dog... living in a home where HE is the king and has all the love. To me that's one of the most selfless acts you can do for your dog.

Plenty of people do it, plenty of people make CNR work (god love them I don't know how but they do). Personally I couldn't do it. I have 7 dogs in my home at any given time. 4 core pack members (my dogs) and 3 fosters right now. 6 males, 3 are intact.( 2 of mine and a Toy fox foster) The female is a 11 week old rottie pup. We never have tiffs, fights, squabbles or any type of pack disturbence even with a constant cycle of fosters (who usually settle in to the pack in 2 days) I believe basically because of great leadership... ME  I know some breeds are prone to DA like Pit bulls (which is another arguement in itself) but those aren't generally dogs that educated people plan on adding to an existing canine family.



jnite said:


> I have a situation where my rescue chihuahua has to be in a kennel if nobody is able to watch him. It is not because of any agression, but he will pee on anything if you don't keep a very close eye on him. Do I like that he is in the kennel when we are at work or gone? NO But it is a solution for us and he doesn't have to be pts or rehomed. I had this problem passed on to me and I REFUSE to pass the problem on to somebody else.


No to change the subject but why don't you use a belly band on him so he doesn't have to be crated so much? PM me if ya want more info. So we don't hijack.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> I'm not trying to be difficult or withhold anything from you Pugmom. I simply can't think of any way to explain it to you. There is no reason other than the reasons I already gave you. People just feel differently sometimes and the other person is not always going to "get it". I also was not implying that anyone was not respecting others feelings. I was just trying to say that its not something that can be further explained and you either get it or you don't. I don't know why you are responding so negatively to something that is simply the way I feel. It is what it is. You asked for opinions and I posted mine.
> 
> About the re-homing. I didn't say it is easy to re-home every animal in every situation. There are animals in shelters for zillion of different reasons.


I don't think I am reacting negatively and I'm sorry if its coming across that way to you......I'm asking you to explain a POV and the reasons you feel that CandR is a negative thing or why you view it negatively...if you can't think of a way explain your feelings other then what you all ready have then I accept that and will move on ....I asked for an opinion then asked the reason for that opinion...like have you tried it and found it didn't work, have you seen a situation that put a negative light on it...etc etc.....Basically how you came to the conclusion you did...thats all 



FilleBelle said:


> Except that I can actually calculate that risk. Given my adeptness with a knife and my understanding of how to chop lettuce, I would say that my chances of getting a small cut are very slim. The chances of me taking my entire finger off are zero, barring an unexpected happening that might cause me to slip. I can never calculate the risk of my dogs trying to kill each other because they are essentially two unknowns. If I were to slip up and leave a dog out when it was supposed to be in or feed someone in the wrong place at the wrong time or whatever, I would have absolutely no idea if this would be the time they would attack or if I they would be okay until I was able to contain them as I was supposed to.
> 
> _*There are many variables in any situation...you could slip , the knife could break, someone could bump you etc.....but I will agree that dogs have more un-knows*_
> 
> ...



*Ok maybe we have different ideas of what C and R is.....Since there are many levels of DA , I would think there are many levels or ways to C&R.....I would think any time one dog is separated from another during play, sleep , eating, potting, etc this would be called C&R....Maybe I need to explain the way our set up goes at our house ..Would that help you understand my POV a little more?*



Dog_Shrink said:


> My arguement was "at what point do you have to draw the line of saying ok rehoming this one (that is causing the other 3 (or however many) to get all upset when normally with out his presence are well behaved) is going to prevent any of these dogs from spending 8-12 hours in a crate and rotate life then is it worth the stress of rehoming for that dog (ie new family, new routine, etc) versus how much stress is it going to cause him to stay here and live in a CNR environment because of his behavior"?
> 
> 
> .



I guess its hard for me because that is not the situation I am in.....the dogs not getting along doesn't cause any upset in the house as long as they are kept apart.......as far as spending time in crates my guys are in crates for 6-8 hrs a day because we work full time jobs so that also is not a stress point for my guys......I think that of course if you can't keep the Peace w/ C&R and its making the house miserable then re-home is a great option


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

This thread is very interesting to me as ive never known anybody to own a crate for their dog/s so the whole idea is very foreign to me.

Would i crate and rotate to keep my 3 with me as a family? hell yeah i would,like PM said i wouldnt sleep easy with the decision of rehoming any of them.
My dogs have had full run of the house together and thats the way its always been,one dog is DA but not within the pack,i work 4 days a week and when im not home they just chill and ive filmed them whist ive been out and they are fine.
Bless has her own method of rotating which is room and rotate,she always goes into my room which has a gate she can get under to escape the boys

People always ask me if they get along and of course they do but there have been fights but never ones that are not over in seconds and they always huddle on the sofa after.
Ive never worried about them fighting seriously and hopefully it will stay that way.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

As far as CnR in the sense that one dog has to be crated for the other(s) to be out, that's really not a lifestyle I want. I could do it, but would really not find it enjoyable. When i'm home with my dogs, i want them out with me, if one had to be in their crate i'd feel like they were in some sort of isolation and feel badly about that. I have done it in the past when Ella's been in heat and Charlie was a little annoyingly interested and I hated it. For the record, i do crate when i'm going to be gone for a period of time and both love their crates. I guess I feel like someone is always missing out IYKWIM


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

My answer is that I would choose CnR first, work on rehabbing and modification and if the dogs were HAPPY that would be cool. If one or both of the dogs got depressed, worsened or showed loss of interest in the world I would look at finding a single dog household with an experienced human or if purebred, return them to the breeder. It all would depend on the dog.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Dieselsmama said:


> As far as CnR in the sense that one dog has to be crated for the other(s) to be out, that's really not a lifestyle I want. I could do it, but would really not find it enjoyable. When i'm home with my dogs, i want them out with me, if one had to be in their crate i'd feel like they were in some sort of isolation and feel badly about that. I have done it in the past when Ella's been in heat and Charlie was a little annoyingly interested and I hated it. For the record, i do crate when i'm going to be gone for a period of time and both love their crates. I guess I feel like someone is always missing out IYKWIM


I can see that...I guess it comes down to how you crate.....My pug is very lazy....So if we did not have to c&r she would be snoozing on the back of the chair while we make dinner or watch tv.......Since we do have to c&R she snoozes on a dog bed in the kitchen behind a gate about 8ft away from where she used to...none of our dogs are locked away out of the family circle
I guess I would have to re evaluate the situation if for some reason I had to keep one totally segregated from the others at all time including even from sight

I still think about how hard it would be to re-home...where would they go?..How would I know that they are ok?



Cracker said:


> My answer is that I would choose CnR first, work on rehabbing and modification and if the dogs were HAPPY that would be cool. If one or both of the dogs got depressed, worsened or showed loss of interest in the world I would look at finding a single dog household with an experienced human or if purebred, return them to the breeder. It all would depend on the dog.


Yes....this is along the same thoughts I have


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

pugmom said:


> I can see that...I guess it comes down to how you crate.....My pug is very lazy....So if we did not have to c&r she would be snoozing on the back of the chair while we make dinner or watch tv.......Since we do have to c&R she snoozes on a dog bed in the kitchen behind a gate about 8ft away from where she used to...none of our dogs are locked away out of the family circle
> I guess I would have to re evaluate the situation if for some reason I had to keep one totally segregated from the others at all time including even from sight
> 
> I still think about how hard it would be to re-home...where would they go?..How would I know that they are ok?


This version isn't what i think of when i think crate and rotate, this is more like border patrol LOL


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

There are definitely different levels of aggression and therefore different levels of management. I have only ever heard the phrase "crate and rotate" in reference to a fairly severe situation in which the dogs in question cannot tolerate each other and must be constantly separated and out of each other's sight to keep the peace. 

I never considered feeding dogs in different rooms or making sure they don't have access to that one coveted toy at the same time as crating and rotating. To me, that's just some simple management. No one wants to have a buddy in all things, right? I close the door to the bathroom when I go in because I don't want people to join me while I relieve myself, just like I might close the kitchen door so that one of my dogs can eat without the other one hovering.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> There are definitely different levels of aggression and therefore different levels of management. I have only ever heard the phrase "crate and rotate" in reference to a fairly severe situation in which the dogs in question cannot tolerate each other and must be constantly separated and out of each other's sight to keep the peace.
> 
> I never considered feeding dogs in different rooms or making sure they don't have access to that one coveted toy at the same time as crating and rotating. To me, that's just some simple management. No one wants to have a buddy in all things, right? I close the door to the bathroom when I go in because I don't want people to join me while I relieve myself, just like I might close the kitchen door so that one of my dogs can eat without the other one hovering.


I see all kinds of c&r....I have friends who have a multi APBT household.....the dog with the most severe DA can be in his crate just find w/other dogs roaming around...but when he is out he will go after the dogs that are in the crates....so they place his crate in the main living area so when its his turn to be in ...he is still in eye site of the whole family...when its the other dogs turn they go into the basement to their crates...

like I said there are many different ways to c&r

I guess mine would be more gate and rotate....when some are outside playing or potting ..the other one gets run of the house...when all are inside one is one this side of the gate and one on the other side


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

pugmom said:


> I don't think I am reacting negatively and I'm sorry if its coming across that way to you......I'm asking you to explain a POV and the reasons you feel that CandR is a negative thing or why you view it negatively...if you can't think of a way explain your feelings other then what you all ready have then I accept that and will move on ....I asked for an opinion then asked the reason for that opinion...like have you tried it and found it didn't work, have you seen a situation that put a negative light on it...etc etc.....Basically how you came to the conclusion you did...thats all



No, I havn't tried it. I've never even heard of it until today. I think Fillebelle and I have been on the same page. I just think that a dog having to spend half of its life in a crate because it can't be outside of its while the other dog is out, is not nice. What you do with your dogs is not "crate and rotate" to me, since there doesn't even seem to be a crate involved. And the way it was described in the original thread led me to believe that one dog was sitting in a crate for at least half of its life.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> No, I havn't tried it. I've never even heard of it until today. I think Fillebelle and I have been on the same page. I just think that a dog having to spend half of its life in a crate because it can't be outside of its while the other dog is out, is not nice. What you do with your dogs is not "crate and rotate" to me, since there doesn't even seem to be a crate involved. And the way it was described in the original thread led me to believe that one dog was sitting in a crate for at least half of its life.


Well I guess technically you could call it "Gate and Rotate" ...there are ways of breaking up the crate time....walks...outside play....training

sometimes my daughter will take our pug down to the TV room and play...while we have the other dogs upstairs laying around so everyone is being interacted with 

and yes all 3 of mine have crates


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Totally acceptable. 

I don't see anything wrong with it.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> shelters will put the dog down or simply warehouse it until it dies. Homes must be above par, qualified and checked up on.
> 
> rehoming an aggressive dog is a long, arduous and risky task. and the dog will suffer sooner or later more often than not. rehoming can work out.....but in most cases I don't see it being worth it..
> 
> if you can't for whatever reason c n r..you should pts.


Wow, I disagree. The shelter that I'm probably going to adopt from (a nearby SPCA, which is a kill shelter) has many DA dogs, and they usually find homes. One of them, named Duke, was on the cover of a local newspaper the Sunday before last, and he's been adopted since then. He was formerly used for dog fighting.

The other shelters in the area also frequently have DA dogs that successfully find homes. They're almost as common as no-cat dogs. The shelters simply make a point of placing them in single-dog households.

Personally, I would adopt a DA dog.

By saying that all those dogs should be PTS, you're probably telling a lot of DF members that their dogs should have been PTS before they were able to adopt them.

About C&R, aside from people not liking the idea of it, I think it might be virtually impossible for a lot of people. Say your dogs each need _at least_ two hours of exercise every day, but they can't be exercised together. Very few people would be able or willing to spend four hours every day out frolicking with their dogs. Yeah, some can and do -- but many people barely have that much time to spend with their families each day.

But for people who can c&r, it seems like a perfectly good solution.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

the three shelter i tried to drop a DA dog off at once upon a time all were going to kill him immediatly.

Some will take them but many wont. You cannot deny DA limits a dog's options. the majority of people think that if a dog is DA he will be aggressive to humans too. this causes MAJOR issues trying to find a home.

in my area...da will put a dog at the back of an adoption list if not knock him off altogether. CnR and yes even PTS is highly preferable to some of the miserable and downright maddening situations ive seen.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> the three shelter i tried to drop a DA dog off at once upon a time all were going to kill him immediatly.
> 
> Some will take them but many wont. You cannot deny DA limits a dog's options. the majority of people think that if a dog is DA he will be aggressive to humans too. this causes MAJOR issues trying to find a home.
> 
> in my area...da will put a dog at the back of an adoption list if not knock him off altogether. CnR and yes even PTS is highly preferable to some of the miserable and downright maddening situations ive seen.


Wow, its not like that here at all. Where I live, its the way Canteloupe described. I guess that would account for much of the difference of opinions.


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## aokisweet (Apr 17, 2009)

pugmom said:


> Another thread has me thinking about this........In your opinion is crate and rotating an acceptable way to manage a multi dog house hold?(if you feel that you can handle the responsibility)... or is re-homing the only option for dogs that have aggression issues?
> 
> your thoughs


I firmly believe in crate training and C&R especially during the first year. The dogs, if handled correctly with lots of patience adjust pretty quickly. Also IMO and experience only it helps lower the risks of DA. I want my dogs to be seperate from each other at times for training, bonding and developing their own "selves" - - We do not need to rotate much unless we are training or the 2 dogs are going at it - NOT to the point of aggression but close, but a new puppie has been in our home about 4 weeks so we have been doing this with him. They tend to miss each other and not want to tear into each. 

Not to mention mine are all potty trained, not tearing up the house and they go into their crates on their own too. I have done it both ways, and I failed with my first and only dog until a year ago. I would not want to give a dog away again, so I did a lot of research on this before the investment, and it is paying off so far. (Misty my other dog went to my parents)


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## Billiie (Jan 16, 2008)

> My answer is that I would choose CnR first, work on rehabbing and modification and if the dogs were HAPPY that would be cool. If one or both of the dogs got depressed, worsened or showed loss of interest in the world I would look at finding a single dog household with an experienced human or if purebred, return them to the breeder. It all would depend on the dog.


Totally agree.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Certainly it's acceptable, but not everyone is up for it. It IS a greater responsibility than what one has with dogs who all get along. When you consider that this is 24/7 for years, well, then it's good to know yourself, because that's committment to the nth degree. 

I had to crate and rotate when I brought my rescue home. He was dog aggressive, and intact. I had an intact bitch, and two cats. Initially, it was exhausting. After awhile, it was just routine, no big deal. Even when it was apparent that they were all fine together (even the cats), I was always thinking in terms of possibilities - what *could* happen, so I became very proactive rather than suffer the repercussions of being reactive - after the fact wasn't something I was comfortable with. Better safe than sorry was my theme! Rehab worked, and all is well, but again, not everyone is up for all that it takes. I was committed to keeping this dog regardless - so, if rehab hadn't worked, I'd still be crating and rotating. He's in a home where he's loved and cherished, and I didn't want to take that away from him. He came from a hellish situation, and who knows what would happen with someone else. At least with us he had a good life, and was cared for. I'm just glad he felt safe and secure enough to become the dog he was meant to be before his first owner screwed him up.

However, when I brought a foster dog home for 3 months, wow. THAT was exhausting, because she wanted to attack my dogs. I liked her a lot, but, no way would I have kept her - way too much work, and the risk wasn't acceptable (she was a pit mix, mine were Standard Poodles and a Shih Tzu). The only reason I kept her for as long as I did was because she was the beloved pet of a woman and 3 kids who were fleeing domestic violence, and were in shelter, looking for their own place. There were no options for her. So, I accepted the risk, the added work, and the responsibility. Would I do it again? Nope.


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## BigLittleSmall (Sep 25, 2009)

We use baby gates at our house. We have 3 different size dogs, and 3 cats .. and there is always going to be days where someone is being a jerk or being overly sensitive. We just put the offender in the hall, or kitchen or laundry room. We don't shut the doors though, we just baby gate them. That way they aren't secluded from the rest of the family.

Now, if they snap or try to bite another Furmate .. that's a different story. They then get scolded and put in their crate. That has only happened a few times, and unfortunately it's usually JB that is the offender lol .. she can be a little priss sometimes.



pugmom said:


> as for jealousy...I'm not sure if dogs can/do experience that emotion....the jury is still out on that one for me


I think they can lol. When I pet JB and Jazzi is anywhere around .. Jazzi will try to hone in on JB's loving; usully by using her paw to pull it away from JB and then promptly stick her head under my hand.

If I pull away or push her away and continue petting JB, Jazzi will pull back and she definately has a seriously butt-hurt look on her face. 

If I stop petting JB and start petting Jazzi, JB gets the same look on her face lol.

It's kinda funny.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BigLittleSmall said:


> I think they can lol. When I pet JB and Jazzi is anywhere around .. Jazzi will try to hone in on JB's loving; usully by using her paw to pull it away from JB and then promptly stick her head under my hand.
> 
> If I pull away or push her away and continue petting JB, Jazzi will pull back and she definately has a seriously butt-hurt look on her face.
> 
> ...


But is that Jealousy?...or just competing for a resource?


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## BigLittleSmall (Sep 25, 2009)

lol well, I guess I wouldn't consider it a "resource" mainly because Jazzi will usually have been sitting on the same couch with me for an hour or so with no attempt to seek petting .. until JB jumps on the couch, crawls in my lap, and begs for attention. Only then does Jazzi come over and do the same lol.

Kids are the exact same way. If they see you playing or paying attention to one kid, for whatever reason, they seem to feel compelled and come over and compete, even when they could have been getting it the whole time previous lol.

Kinda crazy


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

BigLittleSmall said:


> lol well, I guess I wouldn't consider it a "resource" mainly because Jazzi will usually have been sitting on the same couch with me for an hour or so with no attempt to seek petting .. until JB jumps on the couch, crawls in my lap, and begs for attention. Only then does Jazzi come over and do the same lol.
> 
> Kids are the exact same way. If they see you playing or paying attention to one kid, for whatever reason, they seem to feel compelled and come over and compete, even when they could have been getting it the whole time previous lol.
> 
> Kinda crazy


The petting is not the resource *you* are.....if one dog was near you and another comes over and sits right on top of you they are "closer" to the resource 

its like when one of my dogs is laying on the floor and has a toy laying a few feet from them...they are totally ignoring the toy and snoozing....if another dog comes by and picks up the toy it will cause the one snoozing to get up and take it back

Kids and dogs isn't a really fair comparison....I agree that kids definitely get jealous because its a human emotion


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## BigLittleSmall (Sep 25, 2009)

I can see that .. but I totally think Dogs have "emotions" though. Some dogs even cry (and I don't mean whine .. I mean produce tears) when upset.

I know a lot of people transfer human feelings they feel onto their dogs, but I firmly believe that dogs have along the smae emotions that people do. They obvioiusly are capable and do feel sadness, anger, & happiness, so I also believe jealousy fits right in there as well.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

SandyPuppy said:


> No, I havn't tried it. I've never even heard of it until today. I think Fillebelle and I have been on the same page. I just think that a dog having to spend half of its life in a crate because it can't be outside of its while the other dog is out, is not nice. What you do with your dogs is not "crate and rotate" to me, since there doesn't even seem to be a crate involved. And the way it was described in the original thread led me to believe that one dog was sitting in a crate for at least half of its life.


I just saw this today. But it seems many dogs spend half their lives in crates. Lots of dogs are crated while their owners are at work.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

> Now, if they snap or try to bite another Furmate .. that's a different story. They then get scolded and put in their crate. That has only happened a few times, and unfortunately it's usually JB that is the offender lol .. she can be a little priss sometimes.


My dogs snap at each other quite often. I think that's normal (especially when Mia is your annoying little sister lol). I would never crate or scold Summer for giving a warning snap. She will air snap and that will usually solve the Mia problem.

I crate mine while I'm gone (well I crate little one). I don't class that as crate and rotate at all, just managing because I know Mia will grate on Summer's nerves. And without me there to stop something, I don't want to take a chance. The scenario that wouldn't work here is if my dogs decided they were really going to kill each other and couldn't even see each other without trying to fight. I live in tight quarters (600 sq feet, no yard), both my dogs are highly social and need quite a bit of activity to be happy. I wouldn't have the time to exercise them both and make sure they get enough 'me' time. Plus with their breed, I don't think finding a one dog home for either would be hard.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

I'd like to add some more input...

I currently do my own version of rotation right now... I live with my father and step-mother, they have three of their own dogs. One is a very exuberant Pug puppy, that when Donatello is outside of my room, the Pug will not, I repeat will _NOT_ leave him alone... We've been here for months now, and no matter what I do, the Pug will not leave Donatello alone. Donatello can't even go pee/poo in peace without the Pug either trying to knock him over to play, or shoving his nose where it doesn't belong...

So, because I myself can't handle four dogs under my feet 24/7, I wind up leaving Donatello in my room for several hours during the day... I find there's nothing wrong with that because I've got a good system going on... Not only is his food and water in my room, but so is his crate, his toys, and my bed... 

I also give him plenty of one-on-one time, we go for walks during the day and we play together whenever we get the chance...

That's not terrible for Donatello, but it is frustrating for me at times... But less frustrating then tripping over two wrestling dogs that won't go play in the yard, but instead under your feet.


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## BigLittleSmall (Sep 25, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> My dogs snap at each other quite often. I think that's normal (especially when Mia is your annoying little sister lol). I would never crate or scold Summer for giving a warning snap. She will air snap and that will usually solve the Mia problem.


Well, perhaps I should have made that a little more clear .. when I say snap .. I don't mean a warning .. I mean a snap with purpose. JB will lunge and latch onto Smiley's jowls (and/or ears) sometimes .. and even though Smiley doesn't seem to mind and has never returned the favor (thank god, since she outweighs JB by 80+ lbs lol), I do .. and JB gets punished for being out of line.

Warnings to "leave me alone or else" are fine .. but not actual biting, yanno.


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## PandaCakes (Sep 25, 2009)

pugmom said:


> I guess what I am trying to say is that I get people not wanting the responsibility of DA dog or feeling that they are not experienced enough to handle it....I completely understand that and realize everyone is different in their comfort level
> 
> .....what I have a problem with is people thinking that if you crate and rotate that your dogs quality of life suffers ....


If it's used as a method of keeping the dogs safe until a therapeutic or rehabilative plan starts to work, then it can only improve their quality of life. If they never get over their dog agression, even rehoming will probably result in a less-than-optimum dog life, with no parks or neighborhood walks. Sometimes the things that will help our dog the most seem unpleasant, but in the long run the dog is much happier and they rarely hold grudges 

I would hope that anyone who chooses to own a dog would exhaust all efforts to help their dog with the problem, rather than keeping them crated to cure the symptoms instead of focusing on the disease.

I am sure there are circumstances where it's just not possible for the person to keep the aggressive dog, but I personally would make sure I tried my hardest. I


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