# Is potato a filler? What is a good food brand?



## olgak82 (Nov 16, 2009)

Hi,
I have a 4 month German Shepherd puppy, and I have been trying to find what is the best dry food that I can feed him. So far I have been feeding him Eukanuba. He has been extremely itchy. The vet thinks it could be one of 2 things, mites or food allergy. We are treating him for mites, but so far I don’t really see the meds working (all the scrapings that the vet did for mites, which are 4 now, came back as negative), so I am thinking it could be the food allergy. I searched around on the net and there doesn’t seem to be a good source which rates the dog foods. I stumbled on to the Orijen web site and their ingredients seem really nice, however the food is a bit pricy. People at PETCO told me Natural Balance allergy formula, is good too and I should try that. But that formula seems to have only chicken and sweet potato, they said that sweet potato is not considered a filler when I asked them, is that true?
Should I bite the bullet and feed him Orijen or is Natural Balance good enough? Or is there another brand that I should consider?

Thank You


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Much of what is labeled filler, including potato, really is carbohydrates that properly processed, is digestible and a source of energy. I have read that potato is quite digestible and gives a spike in the blood sugar while the grains give a more constant level. Even well processed corn has digestible carbohydrates and proteins. One of the few things completely undigestible is beet pulp. 

Allergies are the one place ingredients are very important. If your dog is having food allergies on Eukanuba, if it is a lamb and rice food, you need to try something without them. A more expensive lamb and rice food isn't going to solve the problem.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

There are really lots and lots of great brands of dog food out there. Both Orijen and NB are very good so going with either one would be fine. 

Potatoes are not considered filler in dog food. It's true. Most grainless dog food use potatoes because it is carbs and very easily digestible.

I personally feed Orijen with great results. I've heard many many people use NB with excellent results as well.

And regarding what labsnother said. He/she does not believe in different quality pet food. Labsnother believes all pet food whether it is grocery stuff like Alpo or Purina and Orijen and NB are all the same thing and that there is no such thing as fillers. His/her reasoning is that there is no scientific evidence supporting one pet food over the other.


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## MoosMom (Sep 15, 2009)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> There are really lots and lots of great brands of dog food out there. Both Orijen and NB are very good so going with either one would be fine.
> 
> Potatoes are not considered filler in dog food. It's true. Most grainless dog food use potatoes because it is carbs and very easily digestible.
> 
> ...


I second this.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Wellness makes Simple Solutions and Natura makes California Natural. You are feeding a large breed puppy, the calcium/phosphorus level should be low in the food you chose. I think CN and NB are fine but SS doesn't have it listed in dog food analysis.

Sweet potato is fine stuff. Dogs can use carbohydrates just fine but protein and fat are more important foods for them. Protein should come from meat not grains, that is where the grocery store foods and foods like Eukanuba go wrong. The Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy kibble has corn, sorghum, rice and barley - a lot of grain and a lot of the protein in the food comes from those grains not meat.


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## sassykzt (Oct 25, 2009)

I also agree w/ Michiyo-Fir. The brands mentioned are $-- but worth it. I personally feed Orijen 6 fish when I can't feed raw.

When your vet did the 4 skin scraping did he/she test him for Malassezia? It's a yeast infection in dogs--  There are several dog breeds that appear to have an increased susceptibility to developing Malassezia infections including the Silky, Australian, Maltese, and West Highland White Terriers, Chihuahuas, Poodles, Shetland Sheepdogs, and German Shepherd Dogs.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

OK, the link to a well constructed study comparing dogs eating Alpo and Orijen. Oh, you don't have one?


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## MoosMom (Sep 15, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> OK, the link to a well constructed study comparing dogs eating Alpo and Orijen. Oh, you don't have one?


Maybe when YOU can come up with a link that says SD, Purina, Eukanuba ETC is undoubtedly better than a premium food WITHOUT by-products, corn fillers and preservatives, you can be taken more seriously on the dog food debate. 

Please tell us how comfortable you would be eating the contents in your bag of dog food.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> OK, the link to a well constructed study comparing dogs eating Alpo and Orijen. Oh, you don't have one?


The thing we don't really have evidence that certain brands ISN'T better than others either.



MoosMom said:


> Maybe when YOU can come up with a link that says SD, Purina, Eukanuba ETC is undoubtedly better than a premium food WITHOUT by-products, corn fillers and preservatives, you can be taken more seriously on the dog food debate.
> 
> Please tell us how comfortable you would be eating the contents in your bag of dog food.


There's really no point in arguing this anyways. It's been done over and over and over.

We can just agree with disagree with labsnother. He/she believes it's all the same. We believe different food really matter and are different in quality. It's just a matter of opinion.


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

MoosMom said:


> Maybe when YOU can come up with a link that says SD, Purina, Eukanuba ETC is undoubtedly better than a premium food WITHOUT by-products, corn fillers and preservatives, you can be taken more seriously on the dog food debate.
> 
> Please tell us how comfortable you would be eating the contents in your bag of dog food.




Please do tell us!


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Right now I'm feeding Pinnacle; it's an allergy food and available at Petco. I'm feeding Duck & Potato and they also have a Trout & Sweet Potato formula.


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

Labsnotes, I suggest you read "Food Pets Die For by Ann N. Martin". Then see how comfortable you are feeding or even trying the crap you feed your dogs!


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## Zeiff (May 6, 2009)

Olgak,
I am going to throw out a suggestion. Consider a grainless food like EVO, Merrick BG or the Orijen that you mentioned for a few bags that uses an "exotic" protein such as fish or game animal. If there is an allergy this should take care of it. Then you can transition him into which ever food you would like and see how he does. If he does well then you are set. If not then look at the ingredants and you know that you need to avoid one or more of those. In essence you will create a baseline and add and subtract to determine what he can eat.

Or you may choose to keep him on a grain free diet. My dog never display itching but had very loose to runny stools until we went to Merrick BG.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> OK, the link to a well constructed study comparing dogs eating Alpo and Orijen. Oh, you don't have one?


I'm going to copy and paste this exact sentence every time you make one of your bogus claims or opinion laden factoids from now on.


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## olgak82 (Nov 16, 2009)

Hi All,
Thank you for the responses. To answer some of the posed question of the Malassezia disease, i am not sure if the vet considered this or not. I'll bring it up at our next week's visit, however I doubt that that is it. I read about the symptoms and he is only exhibiting one of them, itching, no blackness or hardness of skin.
I agree with most of the post, I think there are degrees of qualities in the different dog food. In general most of the time I read the ingredients most of them are scary, especially when its says something like "Chicken Meal", like what the heck is that? 
I am going to switch him to Natural Balance Duck and Potato, since I was feeding him Eukanuba large puppy breed formula before, and that had chicken in it. And I'll see if that helps with the itching. What does worry me about the allergy formulas, is they don't seem to have any fruits or veggies it them, so I figure I'll see if he stops scratching, and if he does try another brand or another formula with meat and veggies.
Olga


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## ruckusluvr (Sep 20, 2009)

nico8 said:


> I'm going to copy and paste this exact sentence every time you make one of your bogus claims or opinion laden factoids from now on.


Amen sister! or brother....


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

You can add fresh fruits and veggies yourself as small treats!

And regarding chicken meal...it is a very high quality ingredient. Any meal formed meat is a great ingredient. But not things like blood meal, or meat meal or poultry meal. These are too general and you have no idea what is in the food.

Basically chicken meal is chicken skin, meat and bones (free of feathers, feet, beaks, entrails) that have been dehydrated and then ground up to a fine powder. It's better than the actual ingredient of chicken because in dog food the ingredients are listed by weight.

If the first ingredient is chicken, with the water removed it's probably 5 or 6th on the list instead of the first because chicken is 60-70% water. Chicken meal however, doesn't have much water and by weight if it's the first ingredient, the food actually contains a lot of chicken.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

ruckusluvr said:


> Amen sister! or brother....


Haha it's most definitely brother... I'm now strongly considering changing my avatar to a picture of myself lifting weights, while chewing tobacco, and peeing standing up


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

nico8 said:


> I'm going to copy and paste this exact sentence every time you make one of your bogus claims or opinion laden factoids from now on.


You are the one bashing the common foods. It is up to you to prove you have cause to. 

As for foods to die for, I have read excerpts and seen nothing but allegations, junk science, and outright lies. I have no idea how some many people can be so sure of things with no proof behind them.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I have no idea how some many people can be so sure of things with no proof behind them.


You tell me...


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> *You are the one bashing the common foods*. It is up to you to prove you have cause to.
> 
> As for foods to die for, I have read excerpts and seen nothing but allegations, junk science, and outright lies. I have no idea how some many people can be so sure of things with no proof behind them.



Nowhere in this thread were common foods "bashed"...This isn't the first thread that you've come out swinging when *nothing* had been said to trigger your defensiveness. 

I'm just the guy who attempts to balance out all of your rhetoric. I'll say that premium foods offer better ingredients all day...because that's obvious. The ingredients are on the bag. You've said it yourself that dog foods should be primarily meat based. That's why I don't understand why you can also say that filler-based, "cornfood" is just as good as a meat based food. You're a hypocrite at best.

When you make statements that have nothing to stand on but your own personal opinion, and try to disguise them as fact, I have a problem with that. When you call everyone that chooses to feed higher end food "gullible", I have a problem with that. When you note other people's lack of evidence, I note yours. 

Your debate skills are rusty , to say the least. It seems you don't have a sense for the natural give-and-take. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't have a problem with what you feed your(or the guide dog schools) dog, but this one way street your mind is on isn't healthy. Do you ever step outside the box and attempt to see where other people are coming from?


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## sassykzt (Oct 25, 2009)

olgak82 said:


> Hi All,
> Thank you for the responses. To answer some of the posed question of the Malassezia disease, i am not sure if the vet considered this or not. I'll bring it up at our next week's visit, however I doubt that that is it. I read about the symptoms and he is only exhibiting one of them, itching, no blackness or hardness of skin.
> I agree with most of the post, I think there are degrees of qualities in the different dog food. In general most of the time I read the ingredients most of them are scary, especially when its says something like "Chicken Meal", like what the heck is that?
> I am going to switch him to Natural Balance Duck and Potato, since I was feeding him Eukanuba large puppy breed formula before, and that had chicken in it. And I'll see if that helps with the itching. What does worry me about the allergy formulas, is they don't seem to have any fruits or veggies it them, so I figure I'll see if he stops scratching, and if he does try another brand or another formula with meat and veggies.
> Olga




Since your puppy is only 4 mons. old he would not be exhibiting the hardened skin & darkening yet-- those symptoms take a while to appear when the yeast goes untreated. Please do ask the vet to rule this out-- I figured since they did 4 skin scrapings this was one of the things they would have checked. Often, I've seen a vet put the dog on steroids- which help the itching but do not solve the underlying cause and subject the dog to all the horrible side effects As for the food-- you can see there are some varying opinions-- you may want to consider a grain free food. Don't forget canines are carnivores(not omnivores like humans). For some interesting reading you may want to check out dogfoodproject.com and dogfoodanalysis.com. Good luck to you & your pup-- I hope he stops itching soon


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> You are the one bashing the common foods. It is up to you to prove you have cause to.
> 
> As for foods to die for, I have read excerpts and seen nothing but allegations, junk science, and outright lies. I have no idea how some many people can be so sure of things with no proof behind them.


I guess its junk science to you because it didn't agree with you. 

Well the Animal Protection Institute of America also did the same reseach that Ms. Martin did and came up with the same findings. 

You can read their report What’s Really in Pet Food at www.api4animals.org,

But I guess because it doesn't agree with you, then that one would be "junk science and outright lies as well!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/protein-in-dog-foods.jsp

How is this? IAMS themselves do a study showing dogs fed *32%* chicken protein do better than 32% chicken/corn gluten or 16% chicken.


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## nico8 (Jul 16, 2009)

Kathyy said:


> http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/protein-in-dog-foods.jsp
> 
> How is this? IAMS themselves do a study showing dogs fed *32%* chicken protein do better than 32% chicken/corn gluten or 16% chicken.


*Awesome* find Kathyy...this is an excerpt from the link :

"Why should dogs be fed a diet with animal-based proteins?
Even though they are often fed plant-based diets, dogs are not herbivores. They are omnivores, animals that eat both animal- and plant-based foods.

The body structure of domestic dogs is similar to that of its carnivorous ancestors and relatives the wolf, coyote, fox, and jackal - ideal for eating animal flesh.

* Domestic dogs possess the enlarged carnassial teeth that carnivores are named after, which are efficient for holding prey.
* The gastrointestinal tract is simple and does not have the capacity to digest large amounts of plant products.

In addition, high quality animal-source proteins contain all the essential amino acids dogs need, whereas some plant-based proteins may be deficient in some essential amino acids. So although dogs are classified as omnivores, they are best fed as carnivores.

Return to Top


Research findings
Recent studies by The Iams Company examined how the type of protein in a diet affected body composition of adult and senior dogs.1



Adult and senior dogs were fed diets with varying amounts of protein from chicken and corn gluten meal, and their body composition (muscle versus fat tissue) was analyzed. In addition, levels of key blood and muscle proteins were measured.

*Compared with dogs fed a diet with 100% chicken protein, dogs fed diets with decreasing levels of chicken and increasing levels of corn gluten meal had

* decreased lean tissue
* increased body fat
* decreased levels of blood proteins routinely used as markers of superior nutritional status*

This was independent of the overall dietary protein level (12 or 28%), which was also examined in each of the four test groups.

As dogs age, body composition and muscle-specific proteins decline. Therefore, another study looked at the differences between feeding senior dogs a 32%-protein chicken-based diet, a 32%-protein chicken and corn gluten meal diet, or a 16%-protein chicken-based diet.

Senior dogs fed the 32%-chicken protein, chicken-based diet had better body composition and a muscle-specific protein pattern identical to that in healthy young adult dogs. However, those results were not seen in either of the other two diets."

Keep in mind this is from *Iams*... have fun with this one Labsnothers.


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## MoosMom (Sep 15, 2009)

Kathyy said:


> http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/protein-in-dog-foods.jsp
> 
> How is this? IAMS themselves do a study showing dogs fed *32%* chicken protein do better than 32% chicken/corn gluten or 16% chicken.


WOOT!!! A fabulous find! THANK YOU THANK YOU


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## railNtrailcowgrl (Jul 24, 2008)

nico8 said:


> *Awesome* find Kathyy...this is an excerpt from the link :
> Adult and senior dogs were fed diets with varying amounts of protein from chicken and corn gluten meal, and their body composition (muscle versus fat tissue) was analyzed. In addition, levels of key blood and muscle proteins were measured.
> 
> *Compared with dogs fed a diet with 100% chicken protein, dogs fed diets with decreasing levels of chicken and increasing levels of corn gluten meal had
> ...


THANK YOU! You are officially my hero, and I'm worshiping your signiture as well, so true, as you just proved it.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Meanwhile the top ten ingredients of Iams "ProActive Health"



> Chicken, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Chicken By-Product Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Meal, Chicken Flavor, Potassium Chloride, Dried Egg Product...


Chicken as number one almost looks nice, until you remember that the notation of "chicken" means they're weighing it before it's dehydrated, a tricky way to move it higher in the ingredient list than it really should be. Once you remove the water content, it'd be much further down on the list, leaving Corn Meal as the number one ingredient and Ground Whole Grain Sorghum (grain, for those not familiar) as the second. So a company that has itself done a study showing the importance of a meat protein diet for dogs is selling a food that consists primarily of corn and sorghum.

Well their new "healthy naturals" is probably better, right? I mean...it has healthy and natural right there in the name.



> Chicken, Chicken By-Product Meal, Brewer's Rice, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp (sugar removed), Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product,...


Ooh...at least we're up to chicken by-product meal as the first ingredient now (dropping chicken down to 4 to account for "true" weight after dehydration). Aww, but then we've got rice and corn meal again.

Surely their "Lamb Meal and Rice" is corn free. It sounds like an allergy formula.



> Lamb Meal, Brewer's Rice, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Grits, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp, Natural Chicken Flavor,...


Dangit! Oh sure, we've moved up to having an actual animal meal as the primary ingredient, but check out the next four! Rice, Corn, Sorghum, and more corn!


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## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

Kathyy said:


> http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/protein-in-dog-foods.jsp
> 
> How is this? IAMS themselves do a study showing dogs fed *32%* chicken protein do better than 32% chicken/corn gluten or 16% chicken.


That's awesome Kathy!! Good find!

I'm just as confused as how a company would do the research and then not follow their finding. Strange strange strange if you ask me. You'd think they would have done the research to improve their product!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Shameful. It is cost and a lot of dogs do survive and meet the owners expectations eating it.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

sassykzt said:


> Since your puppy is only 4 mons. old he would not be exhibiting the hardened skin & darkening yet-- those symptoms take a while to appear when the yeast goes untreated. Please do ask the vet to rule this out-- I figured since they did 4 skin scrapings this was one of the things they would have checked. Often, I've seen a vet put the dog on steroids- which help the itching but do not solve the underlying cause and subject the dog to all the horrible side effects As for the food-- you can see there are some varying opinions-- you may want to consider a grain free food. Don't forget canines are carnivores(not omnivores like humans). For some interesting reading you may want to check out dogfoodproject.com and dogfoodanalysis.com. Good luck to you & your pup-- I hope he stops itching soon


This is interesting and I wish I had heard about this yeast sooner. Our Yorkie had little crusty things in his ears and used to chew the fur on his legs. We took him to the vet and the vet said food allergies. My daughter changed his food (he was on royal canine I belive) and she put him on go salmon and oatmeal. His ears cleared up but he still had the fur chewing, I switched him to a raw food (it was a premix but still had oatmeal in it) and he still had the fur chewing. She didnt like feeding raw so continued the go food. When we moved in Sept he became our dog and I couldnt get the same raw premix here so both our dogs were switched to a meat only raw (sometime veggies) but no grains...his fur finally started to grow back...But sadly he was taken from us on Oct 3 (RIP) so I will never know if the meat only diet was what he needed. He also seemed to have dark skin...I would often look at his tummy and think it was weird that it was more of a dark grey color than pink, but he was also a darker dog than our other dog so who knows.


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## Jordan S (Nov 21, 2009)

Labsnothers ,I'd LOVE a response the that iams corn-gluten protein vs chicken protein study!


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

It is definetly true that dogs will do better with a higher meat percentage food. 

How can any consumer tell how much meat is actually contained in the food they are feeding. 

Unless it is specifically written on the bag as a guaranteed analysis and an as fed quantity. No one out there could tell the true percentage from reading a label. 

If you can I have about a hundred labels I'll send you and you can tell me...

If you look at most of the super foods of today you see so much fluff with fruits and berries and tapioca and potatoes and oatmeal.

Which one has more meat?

Chicken Deboned, Chicken Meal, Potato Dehydrated, Turkey Meal, Canola Oil, Sweet Potato Dehydrated, (preserved with mixed tocopherols – a source of Natural Vitamin E and Ascorbic Acid, a source of Vitamin C), Yeast Culture, Natural Dried Chicken Liver, Dicalcium Phosphate, Lysine, Guar Gum, Sea Salt, Alfalfa, Salmon Oil, Choline Chloride, Acai Berry Freeze-Dried, Blueberry Dried, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Dried Venison Broth, Zinc Amino Acid Complex, Chondroitin Sulfate, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Natural Venison Flavor, Chicory Root, Marigold Extract, Rosemary Extract, Lactobacillus Plantarum, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Natural Celery Flavor, Iron Amino Acid Complex, Vitamin E Supplement, Manganese Amino Acid Complex, Natural Color (tumeric), Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Copper Amino Acid Complex, d-Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin D3, Niacin, Lecithin, Riboflavin Supplement, Biotin, Ethylenediamine Dihydriodide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Cobalt Amino Acid Complex, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Sodium Selenite.


OR............

Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Rice Flour, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Linoleic Acid), Beet Pulp, Rice Bran, Sunflower Oil (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, a source of Linoleic Acid), Natural Chicken Flavor, Flax Seed, Dried Egg Product, Brewers Yeast, Salt, Potassium Chloride, Choline Chloride, Fish Oil, Lecithin, Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Vitamin E Supplement, Bacillus Subtilis Fermentation Extract, Dried Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Extract, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Garlic, Dried Cheese, Chondroitin Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Niacin, Biotin, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Ayanla said:


> Dangit! Oh sure, we've moved up to having an actual animal meal as the primary ingredient, but check out the next four! Rice, Corn, Sorghum, and more corn!


Brewer's Rice isn't even 'real' rice... it's the hulls and other scraps left over from processing whole rice.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

shets114 said:


> It is definetly true that dogs will do better with a higher meat percentage food.
> 
> How can any consumer tell how much meat is actually contained in the food they are feeding.
> 
> ...


That's actually pretty easy...it's the first one.

Ingredients are listed by weight, so that means there is more of the top ingredients than the bottom ones. Three of the top four ingredients on the first one are meat. Granted the first is deboned chicken, so it should drop down to around four once you take out the water, but you've still got two other good meat sources in chicken meal and turkey meal. 

The second one is chicken meal as the primary, but then look at what comes next. There's no more meat source. Chicken fat is more for flavoring that protein content. I would wager the second food has less protein over all than the first.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Not as easy as you would think. I'll post the actual meat percentages tonight.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

shets114 said:


> Not as easy as you would think. I'll post the actual meat percentages tonight.


You don't know the actual meat percentages unless you're manufacturing it. I'm assuming you meant protein percentage?

Also please post which foods they are. Keep in mind that other types of ingredients also offer protein, it's just not meat protein and the ingredients label doesn't separate differentiate. Brown rice and rice flour both offer protein, but it's not meat based protein. Melamine also boosts the apparent protein level in dog food, but obviously that wouldn't make Melamine tainted food better than a non tainted food.

I still stand by what I said. The first food you listed is a better food, with three quality meat ingredients in the top four.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

two 30-20 formulas can have different meat percentages. Even a 41-21 can have a lower meat percentage than a 30-20. 
that was the question I was asking. How can you tell how much meat is in a formula just by reading a ingredient list.


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## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

nico8 said:


> Haha it's most definitely brother... I'm now strongly considering changing my avatar to a picture of myself lifting weights, while chewing tobacco, and peeing standing up



Ok, I would LOVE to see that pic! 

The two food ingredients listed by Shets is a no brainer. The first food is a holistic food. It has more meat and is generally a good food. The second food doesn't even come close as far as quality. I personally don't need to know the brand name of a food to tell you if it is good, just look at the ingrediants. I think a lot of people on this forum can do that. In fact, this forum has been very eye opening to me and has taught me a lot. 

Thanks to all you 'regulars' who have taught me so much!



Anyways, to the OP and the comment on chicken meal ( I know it has already been answered and I would like to second that!), think of meal as dehyraded muscle and bone from the specified source (lamb meal coming from lamb, beef meal coming from cattle, etc). So, Good stuff with no water. When it gets cooked into the kibble, it doesn't lose water weight so however much was put in before cooking is the same amount after cooking. This can not be said for fresh chicken (or lamb, or duck, or whatever).

But fresh ingredients aren't bad either. When I look for a food, I like to see a fresh ingredient and a meal together in the ingredient list before the first fat source (chicken fat, canola oil, etc). 

But to get back to the topic, potatoes can be a good thing. They are a nutritious carb that helps bind a kibble. They are found in grain less kibbles and allergy forumla kibbles. They are not a cheap filler, so rest assured.

As far as good brands go, there are many out there to choose from. Everyone will give you a different answer. Here are some foods that work for me: Wellness, Natural Balance, Solid Gold, Taste of the Wild, etc. I have also heard good things about Orijen, Innova, and Evangers. The best thing to do is do the research and try one. See how it does for you and your dogs. 
Base your opinions on ingrediants, not fancy packaging or gimmicky advertising. And Don't pick one solely based on price. I work at a pet store and was talking to a lady (yesterday, funny enough) about her Yorkie. It had horrible smelling tear stains and allergy type symptoms (itching, licking, etc). I tried to educate her on nutrition but she wasn't having it. She just got the puppy from a breeder not long ago and the breeder was feeding Royal Canin. According to this lady, since the food was so expensive, it HAD to be good. SOmetimes you can't argue with people, especially not a customer. No offense to RC feeders, but the fact that it has corn in it bothers me and the price does not justify whats in it to me. Some of their 2.5 pound bags are over 16 bucks. Thats about 8 dollars a pound! Wow. 

Ok, not to get into a rant about certain brands, but the best thing to do is to research the brands and make a decision based on facts, not price.

Good Luck!


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Well Wolfsnaps, not so fast.. Your correct that it is a holistic food. However the first food is only 38% as fed and the second is 44% as fed. So if a canine is trully a carnivore as everyone on here seems to have an opinion on then the second food would offer more than the first.

So keep in mind when you are researching all these new formulas that have sprung up on a daily basis. That just because a food lists several meat sources doesn't necessarily mean there is more meat.


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## phoeberocks (Nov 25, 2009)

Ah, shelts114, but there is a twist.

The percentages above are Crude Protein levels, meaning raw or un-digested protein. They do not indicate the digestibility of the food, which ultimately decides the percentage of protein made available to the dog to absorb. Higher-quality ingredients, such as egg or meat, have 85-100% protein digestibility. Lower quality ingredients, such as grains, have 50-85% digestibility. So, the first good will likely contain a higher digestible protein level because it comes mostly from meat and potatoes as opposed to rice (which, albeit being a good quality grain, is significantly lower in digestibility than meat or potatoes). The precise protein digestibility levels for different ingredients can be searched online.

To illustrate using an extreme example, leather has 30-50% crude protein level and maybe less than 10% digestibility. So, only 3-5% of the leather is protein available for the dog to digest. Obviously, a low or zero grain food, with say 20% crude protein high quality animal protein sources will have a more digestible protein made available to the dog than the leather that contains 30-50% crude protein.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

I am speaking Meat Protein. I didn't say anything about potato protein. Meat.

All the other ingredients just aid in achieving the guaranteed analysis or protein.

The Guaranteed analyisis on the first food is
32-15, 385 k/cal per cup
the Second is
30-20, 632 k/cal per cup

So exactly like I said. The first food is 38% meat The second is 44% meat so with your reasoning the second would be more digetible than the first.
Not only are you paying nearly twice the amount for the first you are also feeding 40% more.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

How do you know the percentage of meat protein?

That is not published information, and the labels certainly don't distinguish between plant/grain protein and meat protein. Without a source to back up your information, there's no reason to believe it has any merit whatsoever.

Food ingredients are listed by weight. That holds true in human food as well as pet food. There is no logical reason to believe, without verifiable evidence, that a food with three good meat sources as the top four ingredients has less meat protein than a food with only one.

In addition, I still respectfully request that you say which foods the labels come from. As with some other posters on this board, the more you assert the "truth" of something without providing a shred of evidence, the more ridiculous your assertion becomes.

*Edit:*

Oh hey, I went and found the foods you listed myself. The first is Merrick "Before Grain" Chicken

http://www.merrickpetcare.com/store/detail.php?c=112&s=20442

The other one appears to be VF Complete Dog Holistic Adult Formula (though it could be on of the other VF formulas, they're almost identical ingredient lists)

http://www.arkat.com/vfc_dog_holadult.html

I'm going to have to call foul on your "meat percentage" unless you provide additional verifiable evidence. The listed crude protein alone (32 vs 26) would seem to indicate you may not be accurate, but adding that information along with the ingredient list that clearly shows the Before Grain to have 3 good meat sources while VF has a good amount of rice and rice flour, and there's absolutely no reason to believe that the second food has more meat than the first.

*2nd Edit*
I wanted to add that I couldn't find the KCal/cup on the VF formulas at all. 632 seems outrageously high for the listed ingredients and guaranteed analysis of the other ingredients. I'll keep looking...


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Very simple Email Merrick and ask them the as fed meat percentage of there Chicken BG product. The post was not there to downgrade a products name just shed light on how ingredient list can be misleading. It can be found in many formulas out there. 

I know what the other is.

As far as VF just buy a bag and send it out for analysis. Iowa Testing will do it for you...

This is my exact point to the whole post. The average person isn't going to know what the meat percentage is. Everyone has been taught that more meat listed means more meat in the bag. This is absolutely false. 

You could take 4 or 5 more meats and add it to a formula and still only have 20% meat.


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## wolfsnaps (Apr 27, 2007)

Ayania, I just want to say how awesome it is that you researched that!


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Now if everyone would just do some much research to find out exactly what is in their petfood they recommend to others. 

Then the door would really be opened.


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## phoeberocks (Nov 25, 2009)

I agree--labels don't mean everything. But the reason that some of us still recommend specific brands is because we know already how much meat is in those foods. For example, Orijen has 70% meat, Canidae grain-free has 80% and Acana, around 60%. 

I also find it peculiar that VF has 600+ kcal per cup. Is the food super-compacted? It is then better to compare kcal per kg, to see the amount of energy that can be absorbed by the dog per weight, than to use kcal per cup.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

There is also a difference between as fed % of meat and formulation %. Keep in mind the whole meat and moisture issue. 

Your exactly right on the k/cal per cup and calories per pound. However I sell a food that is 635 k/cal per cup and the weight is 3.5 oz per cup. Still the calories per pound are way beyond most on the market.


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## Jordan S (Nov 21, 2009)

i guess you can call it that. Techinically all grains and potatoes are fillers. Even the best companies like Orijen HAVE to add some starch so that the kibble will stay firm and not fall apart into a powdery mess. Other then that there isn't much use for it.


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## shets114 (Sep 10, 2008)

Phoerocks, Canidae may have 80% digestible protein but it is far from having 80% meat.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Labsnothers said:


> You are the one bashing the common foods. It is up to you to prove you have cause to.


I never understood this logic when it comes to unproven things.

One "side A" says "side B" has to prove things but "side A" doesn't have to offer proof of their own position.

Why don't BOTH sides provide proof and then there can be a discussion of that data?

This isn't like someone saying gravity makes things falls to the ground and someone say "nuh uh, they fall to the sky" and is refuting known and proven position.

Unless it's been thoroughly proven repeatedly that there's no difference between food brands, then this position should be supported by data as well.


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## Zen (Nov 11, 2009)

olgak82 said:


> I searched around on the net and there doesn’t seem to be a good source which rates the dog foods.


http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-a.html

I used this to look up different foods, because the explanations they gave as to why they rated foods in different ways made lots of sense to me.


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## phoeberocks (Nov 25, 2009)

shets114 said:


> Phoerocks, Canidae may have 80% digestible protein but it is far from having 80% meat.


Just to clarify, I was talking about the protein source for Canidae's grain-free ALS, which is 80% from meat and 20% from veg & fruits: http://www.canidae.com/dogs/grain-free-als/dry.html 



Jordan S said:


> i guess you can call it that. Techinically all grains and potatoes are fillers. Even the best companies like Orijen HAVE to add some starch so that the kibble will stay firm and not fall apart into a powdery mess. Other then that there isn't much use for it.


I agree. But there are always varying qualities in the carb sources. Corn gluten meal, for example, is without doubt less nutritious than potato or *whole* ground grains.



Zen said:


> http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog-food-index-a.html
> 
> I used this to look up different foods, because the explanations they gave as to why they rated foods in different ways made lots of sense to me.


I find this site very helpful as well. I also found these sites helpful:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/
http://www.5stardog.com/dog-food.asp


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