# Seperation Anxiety, what causes it?



## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I had written an article a few years ago on seperation anxiety and recently seeing the upswing in posts about it prompted me to post this to see if it could help anyone. Also there is a sticky in the traning thread that could provide some more detailed info since my articles were limited to a 700 word count (although this one ran to 750). ya can't get much of an intelligent thought across in 700 words. 

*Ask Mojo *

By
Kellee ****​

Q: I own a 2 year old hound dog. Every time I leave the house my dog makes a big mess tearing everything up, and howling until I come home. Why does he do this, and how can I get him to stop? 

A: What your dog is suffering from is called Separation Anxiety. Separation anxiety can affect any dog at any age and is the second most common reason that dogs are euthanized or given up by their owners. Dogs view their human family members as their “pack” and can become stressed when separated from them. Dogs most often display this stress in the form of destructive behavior, barking continuously, or eliminating in the house. You may see personality changes in your pet as well. He may become aggressive, or shy. He may become depressed and can even make himself sick, or he may even begin to chew on parts of his own body. You can usually determine if your dog’s actions are separation anxiety or just behavior problems if the negative behavior only occurs when you leave the house. In order to stop our dogs from having separation anxiety, we first need to understand what is causing it. There are two main reasons this can be occurring: 

During my career, I have noticed that one of the major causes of separation anxiety is a human’s lack of leadership. We humans tend to treat our canine family members like humans. In a pack, the leader is allowed to leave, but the followers never leave the leader. If your dog is instinctually seeing you as their follower and you leave him, it causes so much mental anguish that a dog often takes it out on your house or himself. The dog sees itself as the one who is responsible for the pack and when the pack has left the house they get in a panic because they are afraid that something might happen to their pack members, or they feel insecure because they no longer have their pack surrounding them. When a dog accepts you as pack leader separation anxiety will generally not exist.

Separation anxiety can also be due to a lack of exercise. When you leave, it intensifies their stress and they act out because they don’t know what else to do with this built up energy. Walk your dog in the morning before he eats and again at night. For the walk to be successful, your dog needs to be focused on you, his pack leader. Therefore, the dog should not be pulling in front of you. The dog should be walking beside or behind you. If you allow the dog to pull in front, the walk will not accomplish its intended goal. When a dog walks with his mind focused on his owner, you not only release physical energy, you release mental energy. Working his brain and fulfilling his canine instinct.

Here are some other tips you can try to help your dog get over his separation anxiety: 

1. When you leave the house don’t make a big deal out of it. Go about your departure routine as if the dog wasn’t even there. When you return make sure you don’t go right to greeting your dog. Take off your coat and put things away before greeting your awaiting friend. 

2. You may need a new attitude. Don’t go back into the house when Fido cries. When you go back and hold or pet, and console him, you are rewarding the negative behavior, and confusing your dog because he thinks, "Well, I must be doing the right thing if she comes back and praises me."

3. Leave a TV on for your pet. If you only have one pet and you are gone for long periods of time, your pet is probably lonely. By leaving the TV on he will feel like some one else is around, and possibly be entertained by what he sees. 

4. If your dog is not responding to your desensitization training, as a last resort you could consider pharmaceutical options along with behavior modification. There are a few drugs on the market that may help your pet. There are also herbal remedies that have been successful. Talk to your vet for more information.

Separation anxiety is curable if you fulfill your dog’s instincts by being a confident consistent leader. The leaders are the strength of the pack. The followers need the leader to guide them. This primal instinct keeps the pack secure and happy.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

My opinion is that some people cause or develop separation anxiety in their dogs by responding to every demand a puppy makes.

Here goes, DS, this is another thing I use crates for. My puppies learn early to settle in a crate and go to sleep by themselves. I start putting puppies into crates for nap times at about 8 to 10 weeks. I only put young puppies into crates when I can be nearby to monitor them, because once they go to sleep, I want to be available the second they wake up to whisk them out for potty time (with rewards!) and then play time.

I have never had a dog with SA. I handle all puppies this way. Some are more persistent than others with crying in the crate in the beginning but I have never had a one that did not get with the program within several days. After this adjustment period, puppies settle quickly in their crates, and enjoy their naptimes in solitude.

I also put puppies outdoors for periods alone in a safe area. (exercise pen inside a securely fenced and locked area, on a solid surface) Puppies learn to entertain themselves with their toys for periods of time.

I also feel that removing puppies too early from the litter (before 7 weeks of age) can contribute to SA in adult dogs.


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## Alex927 (Nov 2, 2009)

thanks for posting this DS.

Extremely helpful.

I have a question though....is there a way to find out how your dog views you?

I want to know if there are "tests" (for lack of better word) to determine if my dog sees me as pack leader or if he sees HIMSELF as the pack leader.

As you know, my dog appears to have SA and my current problem is that he barks in his crate all day long.

He's had exactly two destructive episodes.

Incident #1: a pair of headphones. At the time he had access to the entire first floor of the house.

Incident # 2: the bottom stair of our staircase. At the time he was closed into the foyer.

In both cases he only had a plush toy to keep him otherwise occupied. No radio, no tv, no kong, no nylabone.

Maybe it's premature to say this but I don't think destructive behavior is really the issue. Although I'll need to test this theory by letting Wade out of his crate when I'm not in the house.

I believe the only issue at this time (which stems from SA) is the barking in his crate while we are not at home.



Dog_Shrink said:


> Separation anxiety can also be due to a lack of exercise. When you leave, it intensifies their stress and they act out because they don’t know what else to do with this built up energy. Walk your dog in the morning before he eats and again at night. For the walk to be successful, your dog needs to be focused on you, his pack leader. *Therefore, the dog should not be pulling in front of you. The dog should be walking beside or behind you. If you allow the dog to pull in front, the walk will not accomplish its intended goal. When a dog walks with his mind focused on his owner, you not only release physical energy, you release mental energy. Working his brain and fulfilling his canine instinct.*


I follow all the steps you've outlined in your OP except for what I've bolded above. Wade never pulls on his leash but he does walk in front me. I'm going to have to change that. I have recently begun teaching the "heel" command.

as for the statement, *"The number one cause of separation anxiety is a human’s lack of leadership"*. This was a shocker for me. I'm pretty dissapointed in myself now actually. 

I'm pretty sure I give enough exercise daily..approximately 2 hours of walking plus about half an hour with a flirt pole during the week with more exercise during the weekend. So if it's not exercise...then it must be because I'm not a good leader, right?

I thought I was doing a good job in that regard too.....

I should add that though we are very loving towards Wade, we never make the mistake of treating him like a human.

He never ever gets table scraps and we've set boundaries in the house that he always abides by even though there are no gates to block his way. Plus training is incorporated after every walk.

just fyi....we have NO issues with Wade otherwise. The only thing that concerns me is the barking while we're not at hime (while he is in his crate, even with treat stuffed kongs and nylabones). He does not bark when he's not confined to a crate.....but he's potentially destructive (see above 2 incidents). Then again, at the time of those incidents he did not have a kong or nylabone.

Another thing...in the sticky, it says SA is INCURABLE.

However, you say that it is....I'm confused here.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> My opinion is that some people cause or develop separation anxiety in their dogs by responding to every demand a puppy makes.
> 
> Here goes, DS, this is another thing I use crates for. My puppies learn early to settle in a crate and go to sleep by themselves. I start putting puppies into crates for nap times at about 8 to 10 weeks. I only put young puppies into crates when I can be nearby to monitor them, because once they go to sleep, I want to be available the second they wake up to whisk them out for potty time (with rewards!) and then play time.
> 
> ...


THAT is exactly how to do it... now just substitute a gated safe room everywhere you had crate and we'll be good 

Ya know Alex the more I look at it the more I'm thinking Wade's issue might not even be seperation anxiety but more of a barrier frustration. There are dogs (and I'm a firm believer of this) that are stressed by crating simply because it prevents them from doing what they should... protect your home and patrol their borders,and often THAT anxiety also displays itself in destructive manners. Both times wade's been destructive he's been confined. What do you honestly think would hapen if you were to leave wade out in the whole house by him self (for the time incriments we previously discussd) and test THAT theory. Most people often think of ANY destructive behavior is SA absolutely because "oh I left and he goes berzerk" . maybe it's not you leaving but his confinement that is causing his behavior? As you said it lessened from a barking maniac to a chewed stair with admittance of improper stimuli (toys) just by increasing the amount and placement of his confinement area. 

Food for thought...

Lastly Alex a dog that has TRUE deep seeded SA (like cracker  ) will not likely be "cureable" but manageable (usually with medication and proper handling). Not all negative behaviors can be fixed in our dogs but they can be managed. Whether it's avoiding tweaks or the wrong stimuli, to proper reward and reinforcement. Both owner and dog learn to meet at a happy accord, and have learned how to communicate.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

I liked the article, BUT, it doesn't seem to apply to my dog. 

Hunter as seperation anxiety, but I know for a fact that I am the leader in the group; there is no other position I would sit in. 

And he also gets exercised as well, enough to tire him out.

What I am getting at, is I think that it doesn't matter if your seen as the 'leader' or 'pack member'. The dog needs the pack, period. So when ANY member leaves that would leave the dog alone, it can cause stress; and in some dogs, the stress is higher than others.

I should really work on getting him over his anxiety...lazy human I am.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

K9companions said:


> I liked the article, BUT, it doesn't seem to apply to my dog.
> 
> Hunter as seperation anxiety, but I know for a fact that I am the leader in the group; there is no other position I would sit in.
> 
> ...


In this case I would say the dog was SA because he was overly bonded to you. Kind of like co-dependant. He needs your leadership to make him feel more confident. Do exercises to build confidence, as easy as teaching a stupid trick, and see if that helps the SA. Also is your dog kept in a crate and displaying SA? If so maybe the previous post is your situation. Looking at your dog's pic in the sig. with his bred mixes this could very well be his case. Raising a pup the way Red stated will generally decrease this. That protocol raises a pup that's use to self reliance and avoids overly bonding.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> In this case I would say the dog was SA because he was overly bonded to you. Kind of like co-dependant. He needs your leadership to make him feel more confident. Do exercises to build confidence, as easy as teaching a stupid trick, and see if that helps the SA. Also is your dog kept in a crate and displaying SA? If so maybe the previous post is your situation. Looking at your dog's pic in the sig. with his bred mixes this could very well be his case.


That definately sounds like him. He IS very shy and unsure and he is most definately overly bonded (Velcro dog to the annoying extent).

If I leave him out of the house, he will tip over any trash can and tear everything out. It seems to be an obsession with food. No trashcans: counter surfing is the next option. I haven't been able to see what happens if there is absolutely no way for him to get food, because he always manages to find a way....

I work with him everyday with tricks, exercise, ect. He has a very organized life and lots of structure.

When I crate him, I can't leave plastic bags ontop, they will be ripped to shreds. Then while I am gone, he will whine and howl the whole time I am gone.

When he is left with my parents and I leave (I have also pretended to leave and watched him through the window) he will pace back and forth from door to the window. They will tell him to lay down, which he will, but five minutes later will start to look again with less frantic, but it won't stop until I am home.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Your dog K9 is DEFINITELY co-dependant then if he's all that. He's also super smart... This fella needs toys that will engage him while you're gone, a larger confinement area, SERIOUS manners protocol at home with counter surfing. (and the other stuff of course) the trash digging sounds like an under stimulated (mentally) dog. Pre-occupy his time in a positive food manner. leave buster cubes all around for him to ferret his meals out of that insted of a bowl. It willl help his "killer search for food" issue. Maybe he's over structured a bit and needs more low energy times. You're great at bringing himup but how do you teach him to bring himself down? T-touch therapy at the end of a day for 20 minuntes, or in his case a couple times a day, would do loads to help him learn to relax, and restore his balance. I had a husky (Nikolai Iposted about him) that we would have to do about 20 minutes of touch therapy before we could start his behavior mod lessons then about 10 minutes after to get him calmed back down. So he'd come into exercises relaxed and leave relaxed. 

At your parent's I presume theydon't do much to mentally stimulate him but more correct his pacing behavior. that doesn't address the issue. Mental stimulation (again buster cube here) and distraction would help loads. 

Hint for counter surfers... as an aide when you can't watch (and I recommend this the first 2 weeks of re-training in serious cases) take those clear plactic runners with the little nubs on the backto grip the carpet, you can get at like family dollar... cut them into 5 inch strips and tape them, nubby side facing outward, along the bullnose edge of your counter and extending a bit inward. When your dog puts it's paws or muzzle up on the counter's edge they'll get a little poke on the paw (not it doesn't hurt. it startles and makes them retreat). I like to call it indirect negative reinforcement, meaning the dog's action caused the reaction, this provides you the opportunity to jump in and redirect. I usually say something like "upp well ya wouldn't have gotten pricked if ay wern't on the counter", and they usually decide to go mope some where else.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> The number one cause of separation anxiety is a human’s lack of leadership. We humans tend to treat our canine family members like humans. In a pack, the leader is allowed to leave, but the followers never leave the leader. If your dog is instinctually seeing you as their follower and you leave him, it causes so much mental anguish that a dog often takes it out on your house or himself. The dog sees itself as the one who is responsible for the pack and when the pack has left the house they get in a panic because they are afraid that something might happen to their pack members, or they feel insecure because they no longer have their pack surrounding them. When a dog accepts you as pack leader separation anxiety will generally not exist.


Sorry, but I cannot possibly disagree with this more. Ignoring the fact that this is anthropomorphizing, lycanthropic, and rather redundant... There exist no study supporting the idea that pack leaders are allowed to leave but the pack is not allowed to leave it's group. Modern study of behavior shows that it's a social community, not a rigid hierarchy. They are free to come and go as they please, and move as a pack only when need arises (hunting for food for instance).

This is a concept based on the ancient and completely disproven dominance hypothesis which no longer has any scientific studies backing it, and the people of which the hypothesis was based on have all denounced it as well. Being a leader has nothing whatsoever to do with separation anxiety other than that you're in a position to do something about it.

Stuff like walking your dog and training your dog is mental and physical exercise, and tiring your dog out can help with SA. But that has nothing to do with your dog's perception of you. Your dog can walk in front of you, behind you, off leash, on leash, to your right, to your left, on top of you or under you. It doesn't matter. What does matter is your dog is respectful of what you want. If your dog is not pulling on a leash, and walking in front of you, there's NOTHING wrong with that whatsoever.



RedyreRottweilers said:


> My opinion is that some people cause or develop separation anxiety in their dogs by responding to every demand a puppy makes.


Possibly, however it should be noted that a lot of dogs are rescues, and a lot of owners don't have control over the early period of the dog's life.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

RBark said:


> Sorry, but I cannot possibly disagree with this more. Ignoring the fact that this is anthropomorphizing, lycanthropic, and rather redundant... There exist no study supporting the idea that pack leaders are allowed to leave but the pack is not allowed to leave it's group. Modern study of behavior shows that it's a social community, not a rigid hierarchy. They are free to come and go as they please, and move as a pack only when need arises (hunting for food for instance).
> 
> This is a concept based on the ancient and completely disproven dominance hypothesis which no longer has any scientific studies backing it, and the people of which the hypothesis was based on have all denounced it as well. Being a leader has nothing whatsoever to do with separation anxiety other than that you're in a position to do something about it.
> 
> ...


Each to their own theories Rbark... I have seen it both ways... science can't prove everything and certainly can't be 100% right all the tme. Some things just have to be left up to faith, common sense, and gut instinct. as for Reds item you quoted that technique can be applied at any stage of life for most dogs to help them get over SA issues. It's a confidence building exercise that any dog should be able to benifit from. I usually recommend something similar in most behavior mod cases.


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## Alex927 (Nov 2, 2009)

I should probably add that my dog is a rescue that we've had for over 2 months now.

We've been adhering to NILIF very closely as well.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Alex927 said:


> I want to know if there are "tests" (for lack of better word) to determine if my dog sees me as pack leader or if he sees HIMSELF as the pack leader.


Your dog will never see you as the pack leader. He may see that it's benefical for him to do what you say, but "pack leader" does not exist.



As you know, my dog appears to have SA and my current problem is that he barks in his crate all day long.



> He's had exactly two destructive episodes.
> 
> Incident #1: a pair of headphones. At the time he had access to the entire first floor of the house.
> 
> ...


How long apart were both incidents? Both are fairly minor but, it sounds like the problem is boredom, not SA. I'd start with kongs, nylabones, and just giving him plenty of stuff to do. Kongs filled with frozen foods to work on helps a lot, they take a while to go through.






> I follow all the steps you've outlined in your OP except for what I've bolded above. Wade never pulls on his leash but he does walk in front me. I'm going to have to change that. I have recently begun teaching the "heel" command.


Teaching heel is excellent, but there is nothing wrong with him walking out front. How he walks, and SA, are two completely unrelated issues. If he is not pulling on the leash, that's all you need.



> as for the statement, *"The number one cause of separation anxiety is a human’s lack of leadership"*. This was a shocker for me. I'm pretty dissapointed in myself now actually.


No, you have nothing to be disappointed about. You sound like an excellent owner to me. Pack leader is just a bunch of hype with no substance.



> I'm pretty sure I give enough exercise daily..approximately 2 hours of walking plus about half an hour with a flirt pole during the week with more exercise during the weekend. So if it's not exercise...then it must be because I'm not a good leader, right?


No, that's incorrect. As I said, you're a good owner. Have you tried crating him while you're home and waiting until he stops barking to let him out and reward him? He should never be let out while he's barking. 




> Another thing...in the sticky, it says SA is INCURABLE.
> 
> However, you say that it is....I'm confused here.


True SA is incurable. True SA is a chemical imbalance. Most of what dogs do while the owners are away, is a result of boredom or understimulation. If not that, then it's a history of reinforcement for their barking. Can you think of a time you may have inadvertently reinforced him? Let him out to stop him from annoying the neighbors? That kind of thing?

This is called Intermittent rewarding. Because they get rewarded for it eventually, they work harder for it even if they go long periods fo times without getting the reward, because they think it will eventually pay off.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I also have to disagree on the the "why's".

I'm sorry but Carter did not have SA because I wasn't a good leader. That dog just had issues. When you take a dog to different behaviorist and they all scratch their heads, I doubt it's caused by leadership issues.

The real issue is* NO ONE KNOWS WHAT CAUSES SEPARATION ANXIETY!!!!* Therefore NO ONE HAS A REAL WAY TO TREAT IT. Rescue dogs are more prone to it, why? No one knows for sure, some think it's due to being abandoned by their family, others think it's from the stress of being in the shelter system. Some people think that the dogs had SA before they came in (some do) and it just worsens while in the shelter. Which is the truth? No one knows.

We know that SA can be cause by something medical dealing with the thyroid yet not every dog has this issue. Some dogs just are not all there and SA happens. Other dogs are all there yet suffer from SA.

No one knows why one dog will develop SA and why others don't. In all of my research no two behaviorist agree on the why's. They agree the best approach is desensitization but from everyone on here with SA dogs, we can all agree that the approach has to be different for every dog if it has a chance of working.

Out of all the research I've done dealing with SA, ONLY ONE article suggested leadership and dominance as a reason for SA. Every other article said what I have said above "NO ONE KNOWS WHAT CAUSES SA".


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Each to their own theories Rbark... I have seen it both ways... science can't prove everything and certainly can't be 100% right all the tme. Some things just have to be left up to faith, common sense, and gut instinct. as for Reds item you quoted that technique can be applied at any stage of life for most dogs to help them get over SA issues. It's a confidence building exercise that any dog should be able to benifit from. I usually recommend something similar in most behavior mod cases.


Faith in what? Your theories are obviously based on studies on wolf pack structure. Either you've done your own study on wolf pack structure, or you're basing your faith on wolf pack structure studies by others. Those others, who have actually studied the stuff, have since said multiple times that people are misinterpreting it. So it's either misplaced faith, or you have done your own study. Either way, that's still only dog to dog relationship, not human to dog relationship.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Darkmoon said:


> The real issue is* NO ONE KNOWS WHAT CAUSES SEPARATION ANXIETY!!!!* Therefore NO ONE HAS A REAL WAY TO TREAT IT. Rescue dogs are more prone to it, why? No one knows for sure, some think it's due to being abandoned by their family, others think it's from the stress of being in the shelter system. Some people think that the dogs had SA before they came in (some do) and it just worsens while in the shelter. Which is the truth?


The truth is tha there are many reasons that SA happens and every dog reacts differently. The dog that is SA because it's overly bonded is gonna act differently than the dog who has SA because he sees himself in a higher ranking position, versus a dog who is SA because he's just outright scared or traumatized. It could be a combinatin of several, it could be one. There is no known reasons because there's so many variables... it doesn't mean that these sub-degrees aren't relitive to SA. 
So in effect everyone knows exactly what is a common partial cause for SA... anxiety.



RBark said:


> Either way, that's still only dog to dog relationship, not human to dog relationship.


and that is really where the crux of the arguement lies. I happen to believe that dogs don't really label the species like we do. He knows we're not like him, but can communicate on some mutually understood level only humans and dogs have prostate glands so maybe in some way we (men at least) do smell sort of "dog" to them... in some term we are still a pack in their eyes, you can't deny years of evolution and say it has no effect on the domestic dog of today... dogs only know how to communicate based on their instincts so if they're communicating with us as if we were another dog, then why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they would hold us in the same relationship standard that they would a quadrupedal pack member? The human/dog relationship is only different to US. To presume that the dog makes the same distinction is bold at best.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> dogs only know how to communicate based on their instincts so if they're communicating with us as if we were another dog, then why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they would hold us in the same relationship standard that they would a quadrupedal pack member?


I don't know about anyone else here, but my dogs most certainly do NOT relate to me the same way they relate to other dogs. If they did, I'd probably be hospitalized by now. Their communication system with me is completely different. They know I'm not part of their pack and I'm not subject to their squabbling and rituals.

I agree with Rbark and Darkmoon. Pack heierarchy theory is completely outdated, and has been refuted by Dr. Mech himself, who first coined the term "alpha". That is plenty enough evidence for me.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

nekomi said:


> I don't know about anyone else here, but my dogs most certainly do NOT relate to me the same way they relate to other dogs. If they did, I'd probably be hospitalized by now. Their communication system with me is completely different. They know I'm not part of their pack and I'm not subject to their squabbling and rituals.
> 
> I agree with Rbark and Darkmoon. Pack heierarchy theory is completely outdated, and has been refuted by Dr. Mech himself, who first coined the term "alpha". That is plenty enough evidence for me.


Oh but you are... just in a different regard tho...their communication is different with you because you communicate different with them...they adapted to meet a happy middle ground of mutual communication...of course it's going to be different then how they relate to their dog friends. They're on the same communication level. NO adaptation needed there. Again if a dog's only way of thinkng is based on primitive instinct, and pack mentality being a part of that, as well as a hierarchy system with in that pack (with out a hierarchy then there would be utter chaos and sorry but packs aren't chaotic), then why would they relate to us any differently? In the end it's all termanology that is being squabble over...


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> science can't prove everything and certainly can't be 100% right all the tme. Some things just have to be left up to faith, common sense, and gut instinct.


Now you know why I ask for REPEATABLE Double blind studies. The rest works but I prefer science.



> *RBark:*True SA is incurable. True SA is a chemical imbalance.


YES. I am glad you said it because I was ready to. TRUE SA is similar to psychosis in humans... and they need medication to over come their psychosis. True SA is NOT very common, thankfully.



> Most of what dogs do while the owners are away, is a result of boredom or understimulation. If not that, then it's a history of reinforcement for their barking. Can you think of a time you may have inadvertently reinforced him? Let him out to stop him from annoying the neighbors? That kind of thing?
> 
> This is called Intermittent rewarding. Because they get rewarded for it eventually, they work harder for it even if they go long periods fo times without getting the reward, because they think it will eventually pay off.


Yes to this. Again.. saved me having to say it.



> *Darkmoon:* I also have to disagree on the the "why's".
> 
> I'm sorry but Carter did not have SA because I wasn't a good leader. That dog just had issues. When you take a dog to different behaviorist and they all scratch their heads, I doubt it's caused by leadership issues.
> 
> ...


This person knows of what she speaks. The VOLUMES she poured out to this forum while trying everything to help Carter are probably some of the most thorough (and heart wrenching) attempts to help a dog with TRUE Separation Anxiety. 

I have learned a great deal about this dog _illness_ from Darkmoon and her trials and tribulations with an otherwise WONDERFUL dog named Carter. It spurred me to do research as well. Darkmoon has earned my respect. She went beyond the mile to save her dog. 

True Separation Anxiety is a medical condition. No one knows what causes it.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> nd that is really where the crux of the arguement lies. I happen to believe that dogs don't really label the species like we do. He knows we're not like him, but can communicate on some mutually understood level only humans and dogs have prostate glands so maybe in some way we (men at least) do smell sort of "dog" to them... in some term we are still a pack in their eyes, you can't deny years of evolution and say it has no effect on the domestic dog of today... dogs only know how to communicate based on their instincts so if they're communicating with us as if we were another dog, then why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that they would hold us in the same relationship standard that they would a quadrupedal pack member? The human/dog relationship is only different to US. To presume that the dog makes the same distinction is bold at best.


Dogs can tell the difference between cats, birds, bugs, and so on. I'm not sure why one would think they can't do the same to us. How they communicate to us is one thing, and we as humans are capable of teaching them such.

If a person gets on all fours, play bows to the dog, then proceeds with play with the dog. The dog responds with play. Is this because he recognized your play bow as the same as another dog's, or because well, not to state the obvious, but he sees that your getting on all fours and bowing at him ends up in play.

I don't act like a dog to Kobe. However, he has a long pattern history of that when I laugh, play usually happens afterwards. Dogs don't laugh, they don't know what laughing is. He learned laughing is a good thing, and learned that play comes after laughing. These are my human signals, and he responds with his play signals: he will come up to me and play bow at me.

The fact dogs are experts at reading body language does not mean your dog understands your body language as his own. He has to learn your body language, just like you have to learn his. And in doing so, you come upon a common language with each other. You could act like a dog, act like a human, act like a cat, act like a monkey, a whale, dolphin, it doesn't matter. As long as there's a pattern of "you do this, and this happens afterwards" then he will figure it out.

They hold us to a relationship, yes. They are our companions. They learn we are benefical to them. domestication helps this, by getting rid of the last fear stage, and making them less mature than a wolf. They could have a similar relationship with a monkey, because of domestication. 

To presume that they don't make a distinction between us and themselves is even more bold, and doesn't hold up to reality.



Dog_Shrink said:


> Oh but you are... just in a different regard tho...their communication is different with you because you communicate different with them...they adapted to meet a happy middle ground of mutual communication...of course it's going to be different then how they relate to their dog friends. They're on the same communication level. NO adaptation needed there. Again if a dog's only way of thinkng is based on primitive instinct, and pack mentality being a part of that, as well as a hierarchy system with in that pack (with out a hierarchy then there would be utter chaos and sorry but packs aren't chaotic), then why would they relate to us any differently? In the end it's all termanology that is being squabble over...


Again, it's not terminology. Ask yourself this, where is your information on their "hierarchy" system from? Most people would say David Mech. 

David Mech says that packs do not have a rigid hierarchy. It's not terminology. The concept that dogs or wolves have a rigid hierarchy is not a terminology. Dogs do not, nor do wolves, have a rigid hierarchy. You call it faith, yet your theory is based on scientific studies. These scientific studies say that there's no rigid hierarchy. Alpha is the breeding pair, dominance is an winner, or to some, the controller of a resource. This was misinterpreted to the modern day hierarchy among dogs. 

Dogs have a structure, yes. But it's not leader, then rest of pack. It's more fluid than that.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

> So in effect everyone knows exactly what is a common partial cause for SA... anxiety.


Anxiety is a _symptom_, not a _cause_. 

The _Expression_ of _Anxiety symptoms _in dogs can include defecation, urination (including submissive peeing), panting, self mutilation, biting, chewing.. etc.

The _cause_ of anxiety is a different ball of wax. In a dog with true SA the causitive agent has not been sourced.. it could be a seizure disorder brought on by adrenaline release, brain chemical imbalance has been suggested, excessive seratonin reuptake etc. etc.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

_Originally Posted by RedyreRottweilers 
My opinion is that some people cause or develop separation anxiety in their dogs by responding to every demand a puppy makes._




RBark said:


> Possibly, however it should be noted that a lot of dogs are rescues, and a lot of owners don't have control over the early period of the dog's life.


Agreed on both counts. I think that this condition is a lot easier to prevent than it is to modify in a lot of dogs. I am thankful I have not had to deal with it so far.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

RBark said:


> Dogs can tell the difference between cats, birds, bugs, and so on. I'm not sure why one would think they can't do the same to us. How they communicate to us is one thing, and we as humans are capable of teaching them such.
> 
> The fact dogs are experts at reading body language does not mean your dog understands your body language as his own. He has to learn your body language, just like you have to learn his. And in doing so, you come upon a common language with each other.
> 
> ...


Yes but you'll see a dog interact with a bug, butterfly, bird, the same way they would attempt a canine pack member.

Just what I stated earlier

Nope never studied much of Mech. Studied wolves. I don't need someone's interpret data fed to me. I'd rather see it myself and make my own conclusions. BTW I never said RIGID hierarchy. Nothing in a pack is rigid..it's always ebb and flow. The terminology I mentioned was in your referral to Alpha. We as humans like to label everything and I don't generalize like that. Do I believe in alpha.. most likely not in the sense it's language intends. I tend to believe more of a Type A personality will run a pack better and more comfortably than a type B, and that said type B personality is more likely to exhibit signs of seperation anxiety than a type A dog. Do most people understand that... no... so I tend to use words that most will understand even if it slightly obscures my meaning, rather than using terms I'd have to expalin 100 times.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Yes but you'll see a dog interact with a bug, butterfly, bird, the same way they would attempt a canine pack member.
> 
> Just what I stated earlier


I dunno, I certainly haven't seen my dogs attempt to hunt down and eat other dogs. 



> Nope never studied much of Mech. Studied wolves.


I'm sorry, did you say you studied wolves? You're going to need to expand more than that. Anyone can say they studied wolves. Where'd you study, what wolves, what was your method of observation, and where's your documentation?



> Nothing in a pack is rigid..it's always ebb and flow.


Then you'd know that "pack leader" is an obsolete term.




> The terminology I mentioned was in your referral to Alpha. We as humans like to label everything and I don't generalize like that. Do I believe in alpha.. most likely not in the sense it's language intends. I tend to believe more of a Type A personality will run a pack better and more comfortably than a type B, and that said type B personality is more likely to exhibit signs of seperation anxiety than a type A dog. Do most people understand that... no... so I tend to use words that most will understand even if it slightly obscures my meaning, rather than using terms I'd have to expalin 100 times.


And yet, you're here explaining it 100 times. I looked up what Type A and Type B is, and I'm not sure what you're alluding to other than that people with Type A personalities are more likely to have an heart attack.

I'm assuming you mean a calm, confident person that is consistent in their training are more likely to have success with their relationship with dogs. I'm not sure how one would need to answer 100 questions about that. It's a lot more clear than "pack leader". Because inevitably you run into people who are confused as hell, like Alex927.



Alex927 said:


> s for the statement, "The number one cause of separation anxiety is a human’s lack of leadership". This was a shocker for me. I'm pretty dissapointed in myself now actually.


This is a guy who exercises his dog 2 hours a day, plays with his dog on the flirt pole, taught his dog loose leash walking, and working on heeling, whose dog knows a few tricks. Instead of helping him work on the behavior he wants fixed, you're giving him a roller coaster ride with the pack leader mumbo jumbo.

Most people in this thread have no idea what you mean, either. People with SA dogs are confused because it doesn't tell them anything other than they are supposedly bad leaders. They aren't, and we can help them with the methods and consistency.


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## nekomi (May 21, 2008)

> Nope never studied much of Mech. Studied wolves.


If you've thoroughly studied wolves, you should certainly have read material from Dr. David Mech. He is the world's leading authority on wolves, hands-down.



> Yes but you'll see a dog interact with a bug, butterfly, bird, the same way they would attempt a canine pack member.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

This has been posted before. Probably a good place to post it again. 

This: http://www.nonlineardogs.com/100MostSillyPart1-2.html

http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Your dog K9 is DEFINITELY co-dependant then if he's all that. He's also super smart... This fella needs toys that will engage him while you're gone, a larger confinement area, SERIOUS manners protocol at home with counter surfing. (and the other stuff of course) the trash digging sounds like an under stimulated (mentally) dog. Pre-occupy his time in a positive food manner. leave buster cubes all around for him to ferret his meals out of that insted of a bowl. It willl help his "killer search for food" issue. Maybe he's over structured a bit and needs more low energy times. You're great at bringing himup but how do you teach him to bring himself down? T-touch therapy at the end of a day for 20 minuntes, or in his case a couple times a day, would do loads to help him learn to relax, and restore his balance. I had a husky (Nikolai Iposted about him) that we would have to do about 20 minutes of touch therapy before we could start his behavior mod lessons then about 10 minutes after to get him calmed back down. So he'd come into exercises relaxed and leave relaxed.
> 
> At your parent's I presume theydon't do much to mentally stimulate him but more correct his pacing behavior. that doesn't address the issue. Mental stimulation (again buster cube here) and distraction would help loads.
> 
> Hint for counter surfers... as an aide when you can't watch (and I recommend this the first 2 weeks of re-training in serious cases) take those clear plactic runners with the little nubs on the backto grip the carpet, you can get at like family dollar... cut them into 5 inch strips and tape them, nubby side facing outward, along the bullnose edge of your counter and extending a bit inward. When your dog puts it's paws or muzzle up on the counter's edge they'll get a little poke on the paw (not it doesn't hurt. it startles and makes them retreat). I like to call it indirect negative reinforcement, meaning the dog's action caused the reaction, this provides you the opportunity to jump in and redirect. I usually say something like "upp well ya wouldn't have gotten pricked if ay wern't on the counter", and they usually decide to go mope some where else.


Yes, he's obviously too attatched. However, I definately don't believe that he is under stimulated. That just isn't his peronsality. He is very laid back and as I already said, he gets plenty of walks that tire him out as well as training and treat training games (such as hiding the treat in a certain spot in the house and having him find it).

I tried a kong like toy for when im gone. He will ignore the kong and shred the bag, or whine. Settle down and nibble it, then get up and starts to pace. The kong almost makes it worse because he won't sit down and just howl, he will instead get up and down and pace and whine.

No, my parents don't give mental stimulation because it's usually already provided by me. I'm talking about a 5 minutes trip to the local store and this is when he is pacing back and forth from door to window. But I do tell them to tell Hunter to lay down because I want them to block the behavior of pacing and tell him what to do. But as stated, in most cases, his anxiety will override the que about five minutes later.

Not sure where to begin with the food process because he would never dare do it when I'm there. He knows he can't even go in the kitchen. But when I'm gone, it's crazy time.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> I like to call it indirect negative reinforcement, meaning the dog's action caused the reaction, this provides you the opportunity to jump in and redirect


Sorry, missed this. That is Positive Punishment, not Negative Reinforcement. You're trying to weaken the behavior by introducing an aversive.



K9companions said:


> Yes, he's obviously too attatched. However, I definately don't believe that he is under stimulated. That just isn't his peronsality. He is very laid back and as I already said, he gets plenty of walks that tire him out as well as training and treat training games (such as hiding the treat in a certain spot in the house and having him find it).
> 
> I tried a kong like toy for when im gone. He will ignore the kong and shred the bag, or whine. Settle down and nibble it, then get up and starts to pace. The kong almost makes it worse because he won't sit down and just howl, he will instead get up and down and pace and whine.
> 
> ...


The only thing you can do while you're away is management. Your dog has a long history of being rewarded for getting into the trash, or shredding stuff. Kobe is like your dog, he has little interest in kongs, toys, etc. But he LOVES to shred paper and cardboard. As such, I keep all paper and cardboard out of reach while I am away. He doesn't get into the trash, but if he did, I would also put it in a area he cannot access.

Some dogs are just not suited for free roam. If you cannot manage the situation, then confining him to a smaller area (a pen, a kennel, a crate... whatever works best).


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Oh Shrink, I think you need to rewrite and do some more research here. This is just not great information nor great advice, though there are bits and pieces that are accurate if taken in proper context.
Properly diagnosing SA takes a bit of work and thought. Destructiveness itself is not necessarily SA, but taken into context with other symptoms may be. Destructiveness can be boredom, adolescent need to chew, improper management as a puppy (so they learn to repeat the behaviour because it is self rewarding) etc. SA usually has several OTHER symptoms/behaviours linked to it:
Pacing
Vocalizing
Hypersalivation
Misurination and/or defecation
Lack of interest in food left to "occupy" the dog
Destruction or escape behaviours happening at points of entry/exit (doorways, crate doors, windows)
Destruction of personal items related to the owner (shoes, socks, bedding, sofas)

Not all of these have to happen, usually two to three of these is indicative of SA. And they all must only occur when the attachment figure is absent.

This has nothing to do with leadership, how a dog walks on a leash or pack leader status. 

I will agree with Redyre and you on the points of it being important to teach your puppies/dogs to tolerate time alone. Many people get a puppy and spend 24 hours a day with them for their entire vacation time etc and set a dog with the genetic propensity towards SA off on the wrong foot. This is a bad start, but many pups do okay and don't develop severe SA, which is what leads me to believe their is a genetic/personality link in dogs that develop this severe form of anxiety.

Some breeds and breed mixes are seemingly more prone to SA. Many are rescues but not all. Some have had frightening things happen while at home alone (fire alarms etc) that can trigger SA. Teaching your dog to be independent of you and not giving constant attention can help to ease or prevent SOME cases of SA but this "lack of leadership" is by no means a cause of the issue itself. Same with lack of exercise etc, it doesn't help to not get proper exercise and lots of behaviour issues arise with lack of mental and physical exercise, not just SA.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Cracker said:


> Oh Shrink, I think you need to rewrite and do some more research here. This is just not great information nor great advice, though there are bits and pieces that are accurate if taken in proper context.
> Properly diagnosing SA takes a bit of work and thought. Destructiveness itself is not necessarily SA, but taken into context with other symptoms may be. Destructiveness can be boredom, adolescent need to chew, improper management as a puppy (so they learn to repeat the behaviour because it is self rewarding) etc. SA usually has several OTHER symptoms/behaviours linked to it:
> Pacing
> Vocalizing
> ...


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This. 

If you have TRUE SA (the kind where the dog will destroy ANY type of confinement, including the HOUSE and/or severely injure himself) it usually cannot be modified significantly without drugs. 

Even with drugs, behavior modificaton, and every possible chance, some dogs just do not respond and even get worse... Ask Darkmoon. 

If it is NOT true SA, then behavior modification on the part of the owner can create modified behavior in the dog. 

As Cracker says, Nothing to do with Leadership.


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## Alex927 (Nov 2, 2009)

RBark said:


> This is a guy who exercises his dog 2 hours a day, plays with his dog on the flirt pole, taught his dog loose leash walking, and working on heeling, whose dog knows a few tricks. Instead of helping him work on the behavior he wants fixed, you're giving him a roller coaster ride with the pack leader mumbo jumbo.



Just to go a bit further on this. I put things in a clearer context to DS about all the activities I engage my dog in (including the training intervals and the stuff Rbark mentioned above) and though she initially thought it might've been lack of leadership she believes in my case it might just be a case of an overly bonded dog that doesn't have enough self confidence yet.

I gotta agree with this. Wade was a rescue and was extremely meek and fearful when we first got him but he's made some amazing strides. My dad met Wade when we first got him and again about two days ago and he was surprised and pleased at how he's progressed. Wade's a lot more curious now and doesn't jump at every odd sound.



RBark said:


> Stuff like walking your dog and training your dog is mental and physical exercise, and tiring your dog out can help with SA. But that has nothing to do with your dog's perception of you. Your dog can walk in front of you, behind you, off leash, on leash, to your right, to your left, on top of you or under you. It doesn't matter. What does matter is your dog is respectful of what you want. If your dog is not pulling on a leash, and walking in front of you, there's NOTHING wrong with that whatsoever.


My dog walks ahead of me usually but NEVER pulls on the lease. Also in certain areas I walk him off leash but will always respond to a "leave it" command and 9 times out of 10 will heed a recall command.

I can't get him to "sit" from far away though......yet (I'm working on that too). 



RBark said:


> How long apart were both incidents? Both are fairly minor but, it sounds like the problem is boredom, not SA.


Each incident was about a 3 weeks apart.



RBark said:


> I'd start with kongs, nylabones, and just giving him plenty of stuff to do. Kongs filled with frozen foods to work on helps a lot, they take a while to go through.



In the first month Wade did not have nylabones but he did have a kong (with frozen treats) and a plush toy. 

In incident #1 (my headphones)he had access to his kong (not stuffed w/ treats) and his plush chew. He had access to the entire first floor.

In incident # 2 (staircase) he only had access to his plush toy. He was confined to the foyer.

Since incident # 2 we went back to crating.

btw....Wade does not bark when he is home alone and is confined to one area of the house. He only barks when in his crate and home alone. Before I leave the house I always give him a frozen kong that takes him about 30 - 40 minutes to get through (i've timed it). He always goes right to working on the kong.

But when we are home...he likes to hang out in his crate and that's often where we find him...just kinda hangin out...not playing...just sleeping or chilling.

His routine Mon - Friday:

6:15am - breakfast
6:30am - walk and flirt pole action..this lasts 30 - 45 minutes total.
8:30am - 1pm: Wade is in his crate.
1:15ish - Walk (and sometimes flirt pole)
2pm - 5pm: Wade is in his crate.
5:30'ish: Dinner
6pm'ish: Walk and flirt pole (this session is about 30 minutes total)
11pm: Final Walk
around 12 I tell Wade to go in his crate (he always complies) and then I lock it up and turn in.

When coming home from a walk we end with a short training session that involves basic obedience commands.

The only difference on weekends is that he gets even more exercise and is crated only during bedtime or when we need to step out for some reason. We usually come home to hear him barking...which stops when he hears us (whether it be keys, foot steps or the garage door).

The situation that leads to his barking are very specific. Wade is in his crate and we are not at home.





RBark said:


> No, you have nothing to be disappointed about. You sound like an excellent owner to me.


Thank you. I'm prettyhappy with Wade's progress and adjustment. He's much less fearful, much more curious and has since learned to play like a dog, which is something he did not know how to do in his first 3-4 weeks with us.

BUt sometimes...I'm at a loss...like with this barking in his crate all day issue.
There's this other thing....he doesn't play by himself anymore.

In the first 4 weeks he would just lie around but finally started to play by himself.

BUt in the last 2 weeks or so I rarely see him playing alone although he'll chew on a nylabone from time to time. How do I encourage this? I'm wondering if he is stressed all day and NOT napping when he is in his crate so when we are home he's too tired to play by himself? Because he's usually just napping or hangin out in his crate when we're home....unless I call him over for a massage. I would feel awful if such is the case...and I'm afraid it is.




RBark said:


> Have you tried crating him while you're home and waiting until he stops barking to let him out and reward him? He should never be let out while he's barking.


Wade never barks in his crate when we're at home. BUt the only time he's crated when we're home is during bedtime. He used to whine at first in the crate at night but we addressed that and now he gets through the night without any problems whatsoever.

We havent tried crating him when it's not bedtime though. I'm gonna give your suggestion a try.



RBark said:


> Can you think of a time you may have inadvertently reinforced him? Let him out to stop him from annoying the neighbors? That kind of thing?.


if I come home for lunch and I hear Wade barking from the front door he will stop the minute he hears my footsteps of my keys in the front door. Upon entering the house I usually ignore him for a few minutes before letting him out and then his greetings will be highly effusive. I then continue to ignore him (I'll eat lunch) in hopes that he calms down.

By the time i'm done with lunch he's usually chillin on the rug waiting for me to acknowledge him.



RBark said:


> This is called Intermittent rewarding. Because they get rewarded for it eventually, they work harder for it even if they go long periods fo times without getting the reward, because they think it will eventually pay off.



wow. good to know. I hadn't thought about Intermittent rewarding in this (negative) respect.

I am currently implementing intermittent rewarding now as far as obedience commands and treats (phasing out treats..intermittent treat rewards for compliance) but I still always praise and show my approval.

*Darkmoon:*
You may recall me posting something about this a few weeks ago and you suggested we take Wade out of the crate into a confined area. I tried talking my wife into this but she was simply not having it due to the staircase incident.

I cant remember at the time of my initial thread if the staircase incident had already happened.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Just to make 1 thing clear. I never said the SOLE cause of seperation anxiety is lack of leadership. In MANY cases that I have delt with, lack of leadership has been a major factor in SA cases. The way everyone jumps on to refute my claims with out taking into consideration that YES I am aware that there are MANY causes of SA (just to clarify I never said it has anything to do with how a dog walks on a leash). However there is 1 common thread in all SA cases STRESS (as I stated anxiety previously and was corrected on THAT one too) Stress causes anxiety which in turn compells the dog to act out to relieve that anxiety gnerally thru chewing or destruction as it releases endorphins. Are there other possibilities as to causes of SA. Yes, it can be caused by lack of leadership, or an overly bonded dog, or an unconfident dog, or TRUE SA which is a chemical imbalance (that has been pointed out NUMEROUS times), but with so many unknowns and variables why is lack of leadership so hard to accept as a possible cause?

People like to lump and generalize but god forbid I don't make my self crystal clear when I state something. I thought those around here were intelligent enough to know that what I was writing about was only 1 cause of SA (and in my area in particular a VERY common cause), and didn't realise that I had to go into a complete auration on the issue. I was afraid this was going to happen hence my statement before my article reminding everyone that I had a word count to stick to. If I could have expounded on all the major causes of SA I surely would have. Next time I think I'll just keep things to myself. I am not a public speaker and don't always put things in writing well (that's why I had an editor), and rbark... leadership might be an "obsolete term" but it exists. There always has to be leadership in a pack, even if it is variable. Is there something else you would prefer me to call it so I can be more politically correct? Nekomi I never said I didn't read anything from Mech, I said I didn't read MUCH. I'm the type that would rather see it for myself and make my own conclusions than try to prove some one elses data and observations. Darkmoon is not the only person in existance to deal with a difficlut case of SA. The 2 most common issues I have to deal with in my career are SA and aggression issues. IT's not all training fun little puppies to behave. And for cracker, that article was written in 2006, and I know that there have been leaps and bounds made since then to understanding causes of SA. I was just wanting to offer 1 that is seldom considered a VALID option, and often overlooked. Like I said, next time I'll just keep my mouth shut and only contribute fluff pieces. .


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Out of Curiosity, Dog Shrink, What are your education credentials (I thought somewhere you indicated you are an academically trained animal Behaviorist)? If you are academically trained, what was your year of completion of studies and did you get a Degree (BA? BS? or Masters?). Do you have a Professional Affiliation (such as the IAABC etc.)? If you have no academic training, then please excuse me for having misread or misconstrued your back ground. 

You have indicated you have worked with a number of dogs. Was this as a trainer? Behaviorist consultant? Your Own dogs? Dogs you have fostered? All of these? Could you give us a rough idea how many dogs you have worked with in your professional career working with dogs??? 

Of these dogs, how many have you worked with that have Separation Anxiety? 

Thanks!


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Are you kidding me? You want me to go thru 17 years of records to find out which dogs I treated that had SA? That's a ridiculous request. As for my education, it is formal training with a degree. Like I stated before I am an animal behavior specialist not a dog trainer. As far as how many dogs, let's just say enough to fill 2 file drawers with folders of past clients. With out counting I can't give an exact number. The things you are asking for are things I wouldn't post on a public forum and IMO it's an insult to even ask that publically. I don't know you from Eve and you want my life history? Should I just email you my resume? I shouldn't have to (and will not) justify myself to a group of people I don't know. I came here to help and learn, not to be scrutinized. I may not talk or even teach like a typical behaviorest, but that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm doing. I developed a program that works for me and my clients and in 17 years can count the amount of "failures" on 1 hand so I must be doing something right (it's a lot easier to remember the failures than all the successes). I continue my education, constantly researching different aspects of canine behavior, have studied dogs and wolves and have developed my own conclusions based on what I've witnessed about pack behavior, and often disagree with general "scientific studies". I am listed with just about all our local vets for outpatient behavioral referrals (as not everyone likes or can handle the confines of a sterile vet's office for treating behavioral issues), and do only private lessons.

If that's not good enough for you then that's too bad. I will not divulge personal info on a forum. Hows about I throw that same question back at ya Elana... what formal training do YOU have to refute anything I say?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

You answered all my questions with the tenor of your post. 

I never have said I was an academically trained behaviorist. Nor have I ever put that label on myself. I do not have an academic degree in animal behavior so by that am not qualified to state I am a Behaviorist. I would not meet the requirements of the (respected) IAABC among other professional organizations. Simply stated I do not have the credentials.

Nor, apparently, do you. 

I do have 39 years and more training and working with animals including dogs, horses, cats, cattle and a few species of wildlife. Twenty years of my life I made my soul living from/with animals. I have stated what I have done on this forum before. 

Never inflated anything. No need to. <shrug>


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> You answered all my questions with the tenor of your post.
> 
> I never have said I was an academically trained behaviorist. Nor have I ever put that label on myself. I do not have an academic degree in animal behavior so by that am not qualified to state I am a Behaviorist. I would not meet the requirements of the (respected) IAABC among other professional organizations. Simply stated I do not have the credentials.
> 
> ...


Just because I refuse to post my credentials on a public forum or answer a question to your satisfaction, does not mean they don't exist. Thanks for the insult, and the hijack. This thread is about seperation anxiety not my credentials.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

No. You have that wrong. I AM satisfied. I also answered your direct question. If you find my tone insulting, then that is your take and certainly not my intent. 

The question I asked was how many dogs you have treated for SA? Legitimate question and on topic actually. That question remains unanswered. It is not a request for an exact figure.. could be 20-30 or 100-200.. or none... whatever. 

Just curious as to where your basis comes from to believe you have enough expertise to write an article which appears to claim authority on the subject of SA. Is the basis in degree'd academia, extensive experience, both or neither? 

I have never treated a dog for SA. Never had one. When someone posts at length in a "teaching article" that has what _appear to me _as questionable statements, I like to know the knowledge base of that article in the form of experience or education. 

If, as a student, I cannot question the "teacher," or the "teacher's teachings" then there is no learning relationship or certainly no learning realtionship I have a desire to continue.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> A: What your dog is suffering from is called Separation Anxiety. Separation anxiety can affect any dog at any age and is the second most common reason that dogs are euthanized or given up by their owners. Dogs view their human family members as their “pack” and can become stressed when separated from them. Dogs most often display this stress in the form of destructive behavior, barking continuously, or eliminating in the house. You may see personality changes in your pet as well. He may become aggressive, or shy. He may become depressed and can even make himself sick, or he may even begin to chew on parts of his own body. You can usually determine if your dog’s actions are separation anxiety or just behavior problems if the negative behavior only occurs when you leave the house. In order to stop our dogs from having separation anxiety, we first need to understand what is causing it.
> 
> 
> Separation anxiety can also be due to a lack of exercise. When you leave, it intensifies their stress and they act out because they don’t know what else to do with this built up energy. Walk your dog in the morning before he eats and again at night. *For the walk to be successful, your dog needs to be focused on you, his pack leader. Therefore, the dog should not be pulling in front of you. The dog should be walking beside or behind you. If you allow the dog to pull in front, the walk will not accomplish its intended goal. When a dog walks with his mind focused on his owner, you not only release physical energy, you release mental energy. Working his brain and fulfilling his canine instinct.*


This is where you talked about a proper "walk". This sort of walk is NOT exercise and to increase focus on YOU in a dog with SA is actually feeding the fire. SA dogs need to learn independence and confidence.

2


> . You may need a new attitude. Don’t go back into the house when Fido cries. When you go back and hold or pet, and console him, you are rewarding the negative behavior, *and confusing your dog because he thinks, "Well, I must be doing the right thing if she comes back and praises me.*"


What this actually does is increase dependency on the attachment figure, not "reward the negative behaviour" technically you are not rewarding the behaviour because you cannot "reward" a state of mind. This is a similar idea to telling people not to reinforce "fear", can't be done, you can't reinforce the emotion as the dog is not operant during the anxiety stage. 



> 3. Leave a TV on for your pet. If you only have one pet and you are gone for long periods of time, *your pet is probably lonely*. By leaving the TV on he will feel like some one else is around, and possibly be entertained by what he sees.


TV's and radios may work to cover up noises that may trigger barking (alert barking usually) or coverup whining etc from your neighbours, but do not work to alleviate SA. The dog knows it's not his owner talking. A tape with the owner's voice or a specially selected music, specially developed to calm dogs MAY work. This also may make people think that getting a second dog is a cure for SA and in most cases it is not. It depends on the attachment figure.



> 4. If your dog is not responding to your desensitization training, as a last resort you could consider pharmaceutical options along with behavior modification. There are a few drugs on the market that may help your pet. There are also herbal remedies that have been successful. Talk to your vet for more information.


Yes, absolutely. But this is your first talk of desensitization...does the target audience even know what this is?



> Separation anxiety is curable if you fulfill your dog’s instincts by being a confident consistent leader. The leaders are the strength of the pack. The followers need the leader to guide them. This primal instinct keeps the pack secure and happy.


True SA is not curable. Manageable, yeah. Curable, no. This last quote is truly the issue I am having problems with, Kellee. It is overly simplistic and the article itself, while I understand it was limited by word count etc, is lacking in USEFUL information. You had an editor, but obviously that was editing from grammar and condensation but not for content. 

In 700 words you could make this a fantastic piece that would be truly useful and informative, instead of a piece of what SOUNDS like CM theory. Your piece by necessity needed to be short, but that doesn't mean it had to lack proper information. This may lead people to assume that they are ineffective as owners when they cannot get a handle on their issues, when the behaviour is only linked to owner behaviour at a very very minor level.

I can understand you being ticked off at Elana's questions, but her query was certainly relevant. 

I will happily announce to all that I am a dogwalker first, a behaviour geek /private trainer second and an ASSISTANT trainer at a puppy school last. No degrees, no formal schooling, but a heck of a lot of research and experience,both formal and informal. It is a continuing process and I believe that scientific and academic knowledge is the BASIS of any good understanding of behavioural science and that it can then be applied to anecdotal or experiential events to round out a practical and knowledgeable data base.

This piece does not show your experience or knowledge in a good light. I KNOW you are smarter than what this piece says.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

If I was giving advice on my trade (HVAC) over the internet, I would certainly be giving my qualifications.

Having a title, in general, is meant to inspire trust that the person knows what they are doing, and are educated in such matters. If there's a thread of people giving advice, and someone chimes in and goes "I'm an Animal Behaviorist! This opposes my knowledge on the subject!" and goes on to give their experience. In general, the people SHOULD listen to the person who was actually educated on the subject.

If I was trying to help someone over the internet with a broken furnace, and they got very bad advice.. I'd tell them the right advice, and go on to list my qualifications (HVAC Excellence certifications, NATE certifications, EPA certifications, classes taken, and so on)

That's not rude. That's basic courtesy. There's a lot of people who know what they are talking about on this forum. So when someone comes in and declares themselves to be a professional among amateurs, and give a lot of advice that goes against modern training knowledge and behaviorism, then there are questions that need to be answered, or your experience and training background are going to be disqualified.

I sort of know Elana's background, and I can accept that she's knowledgable. I don't need her to give me qualifications, because she does not claim to be anything but what she is. Wvasko is a good example too. He says he has 40 years of experience, but does not claim this whenever giving training advice, and gives very practical advice. Shaina has titled dogs, videos of her Agility, experience with difficult dogs, and her posts speak for themselves. Curbside has a excellent understanding of the Learning Theory and it's application, and it shows in every thread. None of these people have anything to prove, and their words speak for itself.

But when someone claims to be an Behaviorist, and gives advice that's just so contrary to modern knowledge... well, it was your choice to open yourself up for debate. Such is the nature of forums.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I completely understand and respect where you're coming from cracker. I totally forgot about that part of my article honestly. I'm just so aggravated about this whole thread that I honestly wish I never posted it. When my editor asked me to do the column she wanted it written in terms and language that ANY dog owner could understand so maybe some things I over simplified to make it easier for the general public, and it was written 4 years ago so al ot has changed in the understanding of SA since it was penned. Hindsight... I never should have posted it, but thank you for being mature and constructive with your criticisms and not an immature twit like some posters were.

rbark I completely understand where you're coming from and in any other situation would totally agree. I have had problems in the past with giving too much info on myself on other forums to the point of identity theft (it was a HUGE mess. Who'd have thought a person would go to the extent of ID theft as to even use your degree) and just to be safe now I no longer do it. That is also why I block out my last name in my articles when I post them on the forum. If a person wants to know more about my credentials I am more than happy to talk with them either in person or thru private emails and once I get to know them a bit better and feel comfortable I'd be willing to tell what ever they would like. I do give a lot of information contrairy to wehat is either 'scientifically" proven or considered the standard norm but that is only because in my epxerience and studies I have found a lot of what is considered normal to be ineffective, inaccurate or just nonsense (no insult intended). I've always been the one to challenge authority, ask all the questions and try to find a more logical and effective way to solve problems (like my view on prong collars... totally against what is suggested on how they should be used) but as I'm sure you've seen that if I mis-speak or am totally wrong of off on a topic I do admit it or correct myself once it is pointed out. Like I said, I'm not a great public speaker. That's why I work with animals. It's much easier for me to SHOW some one something than try to explain it.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> I do give a lot of information contrairy to wehat is either 'scientifically" proven or considered the standard norm but that is only because in my epxerience and studies I have found a lot of what is considered normal to be ineffective, inaccurate or just nonsense (no insult intended). I've always been the one to challenge authority, ask all the questions and try to find a more logical and effective way to solve problems (like my view on prong collars... totally against what is suggested on how they should be used) but as I'm sure you've seen that if I mis-speak or am totally wrong of off on a topic I do admit it or correct myself once it is pointed out.


Well, my disagreement there would be in that your position on dog training is currently the norm, and training with the use of Learning Theory, Clicker Training, Lure Training, and so on would be the minority. So I think it's a bit backwards, you're challenging the new theories (and frankly, it holds up to real world application far more than any other method so far).

I would be interested in hearing what aspect of the Learning Theory and Clicker/Lure based training you find failing, as well as where you find is the weak areas of modern view of animal behavior. I have difficulty conceiving what it might be. You have often challenged a lot of people's use of crating methods, going as far as to deem them inhumane. If you're willing to do that, then I can only say it's fair that others are allowed to challenge your views on dog training.

It's a win-win situation, and nothing personal. We can only learn from each other. If I challenge your methods, and I'm right, you would have learned something new that could only help others in the future. And it goes the other way around as well. People have debated my views on animal behavior, and I try debate it. Ultimately, I learn something from some of the debates. If I cannot defend my stance with clear evidence and methodology, then it is an opportunity to re-evaluate my stance. I don't like being wrong, truth be told, but I try (and sometimes fail) to keep my ego from getting in the way of what these debates are ultimately about: the lifelong pursuit to create a better relationship and environment with our companion animals.

But that's just my personal stance. There's a lot of people on this forum whose methods I highly disagree with, and some of your methods are among them. I can't speak for everyone, but I take all of those I disagree with as the standard upon which I must uphold myself, and if I cannot defend my stance, then it just means I have more to learn.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Therefore, the dog should not be pulling in front of you. The dog should be walking beside or behind you. If you allow the dog to pull in front, the walk will not accomplish its intended goal. When a dog walks with his mind focused on his owner, you not only release physical energy, you release mental energy. Working his brain and fulfilling his canine instinct.


Load...of crap.

With Strauss having the job he does he spends 98% of his time walking in front of me. Physically he has COMPLETE control of where we go. But he is completely under my verbal command. My dog goes where I tell him to go, and it has nothing to do with the position of my body.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

RBark said:


> Well, my disagreement there would be in that your position on dog training is currently the norm, and training with the use of Learning Theory, Clicker Training, Lure Training, and so on would be the minority. So I think it's a bit backwards, you're challenging the new theories (and frankly, it holds up to real world application far more than any other method so far).
> 
> I would be interested in hearing what aspect of the Learning Theory and Clicker/Lure based training you find failing, as well as where you find is the weak areas of modern view of animal behavior. I have difficulty conceiving what it might be. You have often challenged a lot of people's use of crating methods, going as far as to deem them inhumane. If you're willing to do that, then I can only say it's fair that others are allowed to challenge your views on dog training.
> 
> ...


I see what you're saying and agree that debating and challenging opinion is a great learning tool. Personally I don't like clicker training as I have found that for some reason it startles a lot of the dogs I work with. I don't know what it is, if it's my area but a lot of the dogs are shy, unconfident little wus balls. Plus the majority of people are kinda inept at manipluating a clicker a treat and the dog at the same time. 

I tend to try working with the psychology of the dog if that makes any sense. I think like they do in a sense (don't ask me to explain that I can't. It's just a gift I guess. It's about feeling each dog individually insted of applying a hard set standard across the board). I use a mix of positive reinforcement and aversives where needed such as the scat mats, but no harsh training. Even if it comes to using a prong collar it is done against the norm and with as little correction as possible. Certainly not the harsh jerking, and high and tight collar you see in most training videos, that just makes me cringe. I certainly do welcome some of the opportunities that newer methods offer, but it doesn't mean I agree with a lot of them. 

I do believe in pack mentality and have seen it proven time and again in many of the situations I work in (even tho I have seen you argue many times against it and leadership). When you take into consideration 
DNA of the dog and the DNA of the Gray Wolf only differed by two tenths of one percent how can you deny the relvance of pack mentality and hierarchy in domestic dogs? 

One of the biggest things I try to impress on my clients is TEAM work (tone, emotion attitude and movement) and how you need to master all 3 to have a successful training program. I guess you could say I use a mix of classical and operant conditioning. I don't find any aspects of lure training failing (did I say that somewhere?). I think my biggest problem is I suck at putting my thoughts into words. A lot of how I train is gut feeling. I dunno call it a vibe. Have you ever been so in tune with an animal that you can almost sense what it's feeling or thinking? I can't explain it. I put a lot of time into studying canine body language and communication. 

lastly why does anyone have to be right or wrong? Thereis no absolute in dog training/behavior work. It's all a learning experience for everyone. I don't get insulted if some one says "no I don't agree with that", I just try to supply more info to try and help them better understand why one method could be more harmful or helpful than another. I always say anyone can program a dog but it takes a special person to really be able to understand what a dog is telling them. Is any of this making my methodology any clearer to you now or am I just confusing you more?


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Load...of crap.
> 
> With Strauss having the job he does he spends 98% of his time walking in front of me. Physically he has COMPLETE control of where we go. But he is completely under my verbal command. My dog goes where I tell him to go, and it has nothing to do with the position of my body.


Srauss isn't your average house dog. He is a highly trained dog that clearly understands his position and yours. That statement wouldn't apply to a dog like Strauss or any highly trained working dog. So in YOUR case it might be a load of crap BUT for the average dog owner who just owns a pet it could hold a very significant roll in their relationship.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My brother's Labrador isn't much trained past "Sit, come, stay" either, but I can walk with him in front of me and he goes where I tell him to go. He is probably the epitome of "average dog".

I can (and do) do the same with puppies and inexperienced dogs in my training classes. Position has nothing to do with it. Tone of voice and reinforcing markers have EVERYTHING to do with it.

A dog can choose what it wants to do no matter where it is in relation to its handler.

And I tell people as much when I'm teaching classes out at club. And you know what? The ones that work hard at it get dogs that are relatively Strauss like in their responses.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Again everyone has different beliefs in training, but I still disagree. a pup or any dog needs to be taught how to walk properly before it can be permitted to break the rules with out being told it's ok. I teach my client's that it's ok to let your dog walk ahead of you as long as it isn't pulling and you give it a command like "go ahead" so that it knows it is a liberty given and not taken.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I don't necessarily think that's true either. Just because a dog hasn't learned to loose leash walk does not mean that it can't learn directionals. It most certainly can.

In fact, loose leash walking is all about directionals and positioning.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I never said it COULDN'T learn directionals, I said it should learn the rules before being permitted to break them.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Sorry for the derail Alex, for some reason when I read your post I only saw the first two quotes and responses, not the rest of it.



Alex927 said:


> Each incident was about a 3 weeks apart.


This sounds like boredom to me, not really SA. SA is a daily thing. If I recall right, this happened while he was loose in the home? If so, maybe with some management (picking up after yourself and keeping stuff out of reach) he will be happier loose.



> In the first month Wade did not have nylabones but he did have a kong (with frozen treats) and a plush toy.
> 
> In incident #1 (my headphones)he had access to his kong (not stuffed w/ treats) and his plush chew. He had access to the entire first floor.
> 
> ...


What did he do tot he staircase? I might have missed this info.



> BUt sometimes...I'm at a loss...like with this barking in his crate all day issue.
> There's this other thing....he doesn't play by himself anymore.
> 
> In the first 4 weeks he would just lie around but finally started to play by himself.


Dogs are funny like that. Not all dogs enjoy playing by themselves, it's really nothing to concern yourself with.




> if I come home for lunch and I hear Wade barking from the front door he will stop the minute he hears my footsteps of my keys in the front door. Upon entering the house I usually ignore him for a few minutes before letting him out and then his greetings will be highly effusive. I then continue to ignore him (I'll eat lunch) in hopes that he calms down.


This sounds like the problem. Dogs are silly. Your dog was barking, and suddenly, you arrive home. It doesn't matter that he wasn't barking while you were in the house. To him, his barking is what made you arrive.

Okay I'm a bit out of my league here as I am deaf. I don't quite understand what you can or can not hear, and from what distance. However, is there a chance you can approach the house while he's still barking (assuming you can hear it) and wait until he stops barking before you enter the house? I mean, long before he hears your footsteps and key. Once he hears you, he's rewarded, so you have to be out of his hearing.

Since it's so heavily reinforced by now, you may want to bring a book the first few weeks :s


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I never said it COULDN'T learn directionals, I said it should learn the rules before being permitted to break them.


I have to point out that the dog isn't breaking any rules if it hasn't been taught any rules. And those rules certainly differ for each person and each dog.



> However, is there a chance you can approach the house while he's still barking (assuming you can hear it) and wait until he stops barking before you enter the house? I mean, long before he hears your footsteps and key. Once he hears you, he's rewarded, so you have to be out of his hearing.


Good idea, Rbark!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Although the original post was a little simplistic, I was enjoying this thread until it turned sour around page 2. DogShrink, I'm glad you posted the article because it stimulated some interesting discussion on SA before it got derailed.

Here's a different sort of SA puzzle for you all:

Kit spends lots of time home alone in her crate. Like 7+ hours/day. She gets a stuffed kong when I leave and then not a peep until I get home. Although she does not eliminate or become destructive, she has to be crated when I'm away because otherwise she will get into trash/food/dirty dishes in the sink while I'm gone. As I live with roommates, I can't just deal with this through management on a daily basis. Baby gates won't work because she can jump them. She's also fine in my car, no matter where it's parked.

When I leave town, I leave Kit with friends. She's fine when they're around, but she has had a couple of SA episodes when left alone:

Episode 1: Last summer we went on a road trip. Got to the cabin, let her explore a bit, then crated her for ~30 mins while I went and picked blackberries. She freaked! She whined/barked loudly, shoved the tray out of the bottom of the crate, moved the crate around the room, and tried to chew her way out. The metal wire was bent up and there was black paint from it on her teeth. Her muzzle was a little raw from rubbing. The stuffed kong was untouched, which shocked me.

Episode 2: Over Christmas break I left her with two sets of friends (they split the time). She freaked while crated in their house, and then also when they tried crating her at my empty house. Same sort of behavior as above except that this time she managed to free herself by collapsing the wire crate from the inside. The second set of friends left her loose inside with their dog and cat, and the radio on. No problems except that she jumped on the counter to lick dirty dishes. I'm sure the cat provided constant entertainment for her.

So, is this SA, boredom, or something else? I'll admit that she's probably a little too bonded to me, but we do plenty of confidence-building exercises like silly tricks and the like. 
For the future, here are my ideas: leaving her loose in the house (obviously with no accessible food), a doggy companion, a more challenging food toy, radio/TV, tight fitting t-shirt to calm nerves, and possibly DAP/rescue-remedy. Sound good? Anything else that might help?


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## mymilo921 (Jan 7, 2010)

I agree with everyone who has disputed the so called "pack" theory. Long term studies of wolves have shown that "packs" are actually family groups consisting of the breeding pair (mom and dad), their offspring, and perhaps an aunt. 

My shelter dog absolutely destroyed things (even her crate) the first couple of weeks I had her when I left her alone (even for short amounts of time, ie going to the mailbox to get my mail). Stimulation didn't help, tv, kongs, nylabones, ect. She ignored them all. After about a month, I believe she came to "trust" that I wouldn't leave her and that I was her "family" - with the obvious implications that she was a dog and I'm human and I am the law. The reason I believe this is because I tried most of what has been suggested above in curing/managing SA, but nothing worked. And than literally in the span of 1-2 days, all destruction and anxiety stopped. 2 1/2 years later I can leave her while I'm at work free in the house. If anyone has another theory on why this happened, I'm open to suggestions. I honestly believe, though, that trust was the key.

FYI, she was abandoned on the side of the road when she was a little less than a year and was obviously neglected.

As an aside, good luck for all of you with dogs suffering from "SA". All dogs are different and respond to different methods. Find what works for your dog and above all, be patient.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RBark said:


> If I was giving advice on my trade (HVAC) over the internet, I would certainly be giving my qualifications.
> 
> Having a title, in general, is meant to inspire trust that the person knows what they are doing, and are educated in such matters. If there's a thread of people giving advice, and someone chimes in and goes "I'm an Animal Behaviorist! This opposes my knowledge on the subject!" and goes on to give their experience. In general, the people SHOULD listen to the person who was actually educated on the subject.
> 
> ...


Yes. Remember, this entire debate about SA started with a Lecture. Very little of that goes on in this forum (posting of self writtin, self promoted articles). When you start a forum thread with a lecture, you will be questioned. If you write an article and desire the article to be taken credibly, there are usually a list of qualifications and resources (references) at the end of the article. 

When I look up medical advice (veterinary or human) I ALWAYS check the quals of the advisor. Same with articles on animal training and behavior. 

Lets face it, an article that comes from Johns Hopkins or Cornell will be more credible than something from John or Jane Doe's URL. 



RBark said:


> Well, my disagreement there would be in that your position on dog training is currently the norm, and training with the use of Learning Theory, Clicker Training, Lure Training, and so on would be the minority. So I think it's a bit backwards, you're challenging the new theories (and frankly, it holds up to real world application far more than any other method so far).
> 
> I would be interested in hearing what aspect of the Learning Theory and Clicker/Lure based training you find failing, as well as where you find is the weak areas of modern view of animal behavior. I have difficulty conceiving what it might be. You have often challenged a lot of people's use of crating methods, going as far as to deem them inhumane. If you're willing to do that, then I can only say it's fair that others are allowed to challenge your views on dog training.
> 
> ...


^^^^^ and This. Nothing to add.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Here's a different sort of SA puzzle for you all:
> 
> Episode 1: Last summer we went on a road trip. Got to the cabin, let her explore a bit, then crated her for ~30 mins while I went and picked blackberries. She freaked! She whined/barked loudly, shoved the tray out of the bottom of the crate, moved the crate around the room, and tried to chew her way out. The metal wire was bent up and there was black paint from it on her teeth. Her muzzle was a little raw from rubbing. The stuffed kong was untouched, which shocked me.
> 
> ...


Since we know she is usually fine when it is her "usual routine" I wouldn't worry about changing a lot at your house. Instead I would work on the stressors that cause the incidents outside of your usual routine. Taking her different places (friends houses etc) and working on desensitizing her to crate time THERE with short (possibly very short) periods of crate time where you leave the room and reenter etc. Many dogs do fine at home until a change happens ( a roomie leaves, owner is gone for several days, stress of some kind in the house) and going to another home even ones where her "friends" are can be enough of a stressor to trigger an episode. You can also teach her a "go to mat and relax" cue and take the "relax" mat with you to new places to work on this..so the mat becomes a safe place and an automated relaxation device. The exercises in Control Unleashed are helpful for this sort of thing.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Holy Moley
I can't get on for a day and everybody runs amok. Rbark, I placed my 1st dog in a AKC field trial in 1963. I am fast approaching 50 years. It amazes me though because believe this or not I am still learning my trade and as I have said many times I have no credentials as when I started there were none that I was interested in or that were offered at that time. I had no money or ambition to go for book learning, I wanted dog learning.

I have been boarding 2 dogs for an elderly person a flood victim almost 2 years that have been through some abuse before she got dogs. One of the dogs a 10 yr old Chihuaha that had his foot broke by a past idiot kicking him is teaching me things daily. I guess that's why since 07 when I joined I am sometimes surprised and astonished by some of the posts I have read. I guess I must be a very slow learner if a 10 yr old Chihuaha is now educating me.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Personally I don't like clicker training as I have found that for some reason it startles a lot of the dogs I work with........Plus the majority of people are kinda inept at manipluating a clicker a treat and the dog at the same time.


Frankly, I find the above statement the most concerning that I have ever seen you write here.

The clicker itself has nothing to do with it. The clicker is just a marker. EVERYONE who trains dogs uses markers.

"Good dog"
"Atta boy"
"YES!"
(treat)



Elana said:


> Yes. Remember, this entire debate about SA started with a Lecture. Very little of that goes on in this forum (posting of self written, self promoted articles). When you start a forum thread with a lecture, you will be questioned.


+1


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Originally Posted by Dog_Shrink View Post
> Personally I don't like clicker training as I have found that for some reason it startles a lot of the dogs I work with........Plus the majority of people are kinda inept at manipluating a clicker a treat and the dog at the same time.


I have never used a clicker but have no pro or con on clickers. But having worked with people and dogs with a much quicker time schedule have found the inept statement to be true. I stopped lessons many years ago because I got tired of saying "your other left" to people that could not understand the starting a dog forward heeling with left leg 1st. I used to teach a "German Left About" which required some lead swapping behind back. I stopped that also as some people are incapable of rubbing their belly and spitting at the same time. (facetious) I know.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have to say I disagree with the OP strongly. Before anyone asks, no I have no credentials, only my experience dealing with my dog with SA. 

I really can't do much more than re-iterate what other people have said. I don't buy the dominance theory and 'alpha' stuff for the same reason others don't. There is no indication that wolves (and even less so dogs) behave in such a way. My dogs are exercised more than I'd say about 99% of dogs I know. They're not bored, and destructive boredom is not the same thing as SA. If Mia is let loose in my house and I leave, you can bet I'd come home to a lot of destruction. Some dogs simply cannot handle being left out of a confined area and Mia is one of them. In fact when she was young and I left her crated or alone, she yapped her little head off too because she did not appreciate being locked up lol. It is not, however, remotely like what happens if I leave Summer alone. Summer pants and shakes, she paces, she poops all over the place, she tries to scratch down the door, and she SCREAMs. What Summer goes through is not being bored, it's not being un-crate trained, it's essentially a panic attack. 

I don't know why Summer has SA. I probably never will but it's been a near two year journey to where she is finally manageable. For those curious I did not get her until she was four and she apparently had SA before I got her. We've been through everything mentioned here- modification, leaving the tv on (which did nothing), meds, etc. It's taken a lot of time and work and honestly Summer's case is mild compared to cases like Carter. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is SA is a complicated issue with no real known cause and it is hard to deal with. The original article to me does not touch on much that is useful except the very last bit. It sounds like a reiteration of Cesar theory and dominance, when I don't think based on my experience with SA and talking to the owners here who have dealt with it that dominance is in any way related to a dog having separation anxiety. I really think a lot of the dogs you are talking about are more like Mia, just destructive and not trustworthy out of their kennels. In those cases it is just diligence that is required to prevent your dog from getting bored and having free roam. With SA, there is NO cure, anyone knowing much about SA will tell you it is only managed, it is never cured. So for me the very basis of the paper is faulty by implying that SA can be cured through simple leadership. 



> Separation anxiety is curable if you fulfill your dog’s instincts by being a confident consistent leader. The leaders are the strength of the pack. The followers need the leader to guide them. This primal instinct keeps the pack secure and happy.


I personally like Patricia McConnell's 'I'll be Home Soon' for reading on Separation Anxiety.



> Personally I don't like clicker training as I have found that for some reason it startles a lot of the dogs I work with........Plus the majority of people are kinda inept at manipluating a clicker a treat and the dog at the same time.


I have one dog that is afraid of a clicker so I do not use one with her. Instead I just use a short word 'Good!', but it is the same idea. A clicker is simply a marker to let the dog know that a certain behavior is the one you are after. It doesn't really matter what you use to mark the behavior, it could be a clicker or a word or you could even whistle.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Although the original post was a little simplistic, I was enjoying this thread until it turned sour around page 2. DogShrink, I'm glad you posted the article because it stimulated some interesting discussion on SA before it got derailed.
> 
> Here's a different sort of SA puzzle for you all:
> 
> ...


It's definitely not SA. And it's not her bond with you. You've named two incidents in a year. There could be many things. Maybe she was sick, maybe something spooked her, maybe.... it goes on. Believe me, I know about dogs that are overly bonded. Those that heard my stories of Priscilla, my german shepherd.. omg. I'm still haunted by her stare to this day. She would literally lay on my lap, looking up at me (direct eye contact) for 4 hours while I was watching TV or on the computer. I had to freaking train her to NOT look at me!!!! And she had a down stay of 4 hours by the time she was 6 months old, and believe me, I didn't want to do it. But I HAD to do it for my sanity!!

But she was fine being away from me after the usual puppy screaming that goes on the first time you teach them crates.

All that said, two incidents nearly a year apart would not concern me, unless there was something in common between the two.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> I have never used a clicker but have no pro or con on clickers. But having worked with people and dogs with a much quicker time schedule have found the inept statement to be true. I stopped lessons many years ago because I got tired of saying "your other left" to people that could not understand the starting a dog forward heeling with left leg 1st. I used to teach a "German Left About" which required some lead swapping behind back. I stopped that also as some people are incapable of rubbing their belly and spitting at the same time. (facetious) I know.


Well, the clicker is just the marker. A lot of people think they need to hit the dog with a treat the exact same time they click. A clicker that's properly charged, you could reinforce it as much as 60 seconds after the click. I do agree that using clickers "on the go" is a skill you'd need to learn, though.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Frankly, I find the above statement the most concerning that I have ever seen you write here.
> 
> The clicker itself has nothing to do with it. The clicker is just a marker. EVERYONE who trains dogs uses markers.
> 
> ...


I have also had much trouble with clicker training. In two of my cases the dogs were afraid of the clicker. Three of my dogs didn't associate the clicker as a marker. How this can fail, I have no idea. All three have passed their obediance course with flying colors, minus the clicker. It's a tool, yes, but not for every dog.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Xeph said:


> I have to point out that the dog isn't breaking any rules if it hasn't been taught any rules. And those rules certainly differ for each person and each dog.


ok now you're just stating the obvious. That is why I said, and I repeat... the dog has to LEARN the rules (any leash rules) before they are permitted to break them. If you constantly let a pup run ahead of you and do what ever he wants then obviously you're going to have a bit of a harder time getting him to learn what you're trying to teach him.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Although the original post was a little simplistic, I was enjoying this thread until it turned sour around page 2. DogShrink, I'm glad you posted the article because it stimulated some interesting discussion on SA before it got derailed.
> 
> Here's a different sort of SA puzzle for you all:
> 
> ...


A lot of those episodes happened in unfamilliar territory is how it sounds to me which would increase the episodes in a dog that already displays some degree of SA.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Frankly, I find the above statement the most concerning that I have ever seen you write here.
> 
> The clicker itself has nothing to do with it. The clicker is just a marker. EVERYONE who trains dogs uses markers.


yes but to a dog that has never heard a clicker before it can (and in some cases) does startle them. an unknown sound coming from god knows where that they've never heard before... wouldn't that startle you if you wereunfamilliar with it. Verbal cues have a completely different effect. A dog is use to hearing their master's voice. I get a lot of fearful undersocialized dogs. Long time shelter cases, and abused dogs. I don't know why but it just doesn't bode well with a lot of them so I just don't offer it.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

wvasko said:


> I have never used a clicker but have no pro or con on clickers. But having worked with people and dogs with a much quicker time schedule have found the inept statement to be true. I stopped lessons many years ago because I got tired of saying "your other left" to people that could not understand the starting a dog forward heeling with left leg 1st. I used to teach a "German Left About" which required some lead swapping behind back. I stopped that also as some people are incapable of rubbing their belly and spitting at the same time. (facetious) I know.


YES thank you. I often find the most difficult part of any of my training programs is teaching proper leash handling skills to people. It often ends up looking like sme demented ballet with the handler all tied up in the leash and the dog wondering what the heck is going on.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If you constantly let a pup run ahead of you and do what ever he wants then obviously you're going to have a bit of a harder time getting him to learn what you're trying to teach him.


That's really not true at all. You're assuming that a person with their dog out front that walks on a loose leash has taught them to walk at their side....which is most certainly not always the case. Teaching leash rules is all about teaching different positions, and there is no hard and fast rule that says the dog MUST start learning such rules at your side, nor is there any evidence that starting there makes things easier.

Some of it depends on what you're trying to teach the dog of course, but overall? Doesn''t matter where you start.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

There is only one thing that 2 dog trainers will ever agree on:

That the 3rd one is doing it all wrong.

Everyone has their own ideas, which is right? Maybe they all are, maybe none of them are.

Sometimes you have to know when to walk away from a debate, Not that I was really involved (That darn virus thingie) but yeah. You get my point


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

RBark said:


> All that said, two incidents nearly a year apart would not concern me, unless there was something in common between the two.


The common denominator is that she only does this when I'm out of town. I'm a young adult pursuing a career in the sciences, which means that I have to leave town occasionally for meetings, interviews, as well as going home occasionally. It worries me because when I leave Kit with friends and she has a panic attack, _they_ get to deal with the results, which aren't pretty. Makes me feel like I'm imposing on my friends, even though I watch their dogs for them when they're gone - their dogs aren't slightly off their rockers like mine!


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