# personality change after neutering



## lilbecky820 (Nov 16, 2009)

Hi everyone,
I need some help! We have 9 month old aussie shepard/sheltie mix that we rescued from a shelter a month ago. 

We had him for about 3 weeks before we had his neutered. In this time we found he was definitely a beta, shy, but would approach new people and let them pet him. 

2 weeks ago we had him neutered. Since then Logan no longer goes up to strangers and people he use to let pet them he won't. He now has started growling (very softly and does not show teeth) at my brother, dad and grandma. At first I thought it was just my brother because he brought his over hyper 1 year old chocolate lab over for the weekend. I thought maybe because my brother and dog invaded Logan's territory. But when I took him to my parent's house today, he growled at my grandma when she entered the house and my dad later. 

He will take food out of people's hand, but doesn't stick around for them to pet them. He skirts around strangers if he needs to get by them. He does fine if people ignore him, he did get the courage to sniff my mom, but refused to let her pet him. He's a big cuddle monster with my husband and me. He's a sweet dog, very loving. 

We have been trying to take him to pet stores and other places, so he gets use to new places and people. He seems to be fine, except for people wanting to pet him. He hasn't growled at strangers at the store at all.

So after my hour long story, is this personality change because of the neutering? How can we get his confidence back? How do we socialize him to get him to accept new people? 

He has not had puppy classes yet. He will start them in January.

Thanks for any advice in advance!


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## Furby (Dec 17, 2009)

I doubt getting fixed caused anything. Shelter dogs take a while to come out and be themselves. You may just be seeing your dog in his own light as he comes to terms. He may be morning the loss of his old home, a child, ect. 

The growling is worries me. It almost sounds fear based. You need to get that under control. He could also be over protective of you and your family. Some rescues become way protective of their family. 

Does he look more like an Aussie? Mixes tend to act like what they look like most. It almost sounds like he is guarding you as a RESOURCE. Like a bone. 

I am not sure what works best with an Aussie. Try to be sure to show your disapproval at the growling. Google NILF. That might work. Just be sure to get to the dog classes.
And nothing wrong with keeping the Lab out of the picture for a while. The lab should understand for now. Wait a bit with the other dog at your place.


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## lilbecky820 (Nov 16, 2009)

Thanks! We have definitely been making sure he knows that growling is not ok.

He was rescued from a person's house where he and his two siblings where left in a crate in their backyard and pretty much ignored. He had fleas and worms. He had rough start.

I forgot to mention he met all these people before being neutered. And while wasn't jumping in their laps for pets, he was more willing to let them pet him. 

I am looking up NILF right now.

Yes, he definitely looks more Aussie then Sheltie.


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## Furby (Dec 17, 2009)

Stick with him, rescues make GREAT dogs! A bit quirky but you will work that all out at dog classes.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I'm with Furby--I think it's more likely that he's settling in after being at the shelter.

To be honest, your boy sounds a lot like my Cupid. Turns out my little mellow lapdog turned out to be very energetic. 

There's another similarity. The first time Cupid met my parents, he was startled by them and then proceeded to growl at them for the entire half-hour visit. I was so worried that they wouldn't get to know what a sweetie he could be.

With any fearful dog, going slowly is the key. It sounds like he's overwhelmed with people. I would introduce him to people slowly, one person at a time. Don't have the person approach him. They should just enter the room and toss him a treat. Anytime he shows interest in anyone--looks at them without growling, goes to approach--he should be lavishly praised and/or treated.

It took time, but Cupid loves my parents and they him. He is still a bit wary of being touched, even by me at times. That's OK. He's come a long way since I got him a year ago.

Feel free to join us over at The Fearful Dog thread (just do a forum search and you'll find it). Many of us have fearful dogs and have suggestions to share.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

what exactly are you doing to let him know that growling is NOT ok? You don't want to punish him for growling because if you take away his growl he has no other warning and could just resort to biting with out warning. If he was recently neuutered he could still be in pain from the neuter and just showing that he doesn't want to be messed with in the only way he knows how. if he was kept in a crate in a yard then he definitely did not get the socializing he needs. Rescue dogs are great pets, but they do come with baggage and you have to understand and work thru all that. After about 2 weeks in a new home a dog is just starting to show their true selves and the "honeymoon period" is over. He's testing limitts to see exactly what he can get away with and establlishing his rank in the pack. personally I would have waited until I had build a rapport with the dog before neutering him. Now not only does he have this new person caring for me, but they also "hurt" me on top of it... wow people suck (in his mind). You need to give him time to properly settle in, learn to trust you then start exposing him to the rest of the family. You really shouldn't be taking him anywhere until he's at least 3-4 weeks healed from his neuter as it can cause him pain even after that amount of time. You're pushing him too hard too fast, and expecting him to be accepting of all these new scary things. That's A LOT to ask. This is a dog that has no world sense and you're throwing him in the mix like he actually came from some one who took the time to care and educate him. Your dog is a blank slate with the only experiences he has had of people is horrible ones. You need to start back at square 1. Growling is a sign of anxiety and he is telling you in no uncertain terms he is over whelmed. Back up, work some basic obedience skills and use some educational games like hide and seek and beat the clock (anything that gets him "working for you) to build his confidence, build your relationship and build trust. He needs to know he can depend on you to keep him safe even if inside he is tweaking.

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Furby said:



Does he look more like an Aussie? Mixes tend to act like what they look like most. QUOTE]

Click to expand...

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Furby said:


> De ja vous... I have said that a lot here. Are you a trainer? Not many people know that unless they're in the industry and at that many don't know that until they've been in the industry for some time.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Really? Because I haven't seen any correlation to what a mix looks like and what a mix acts like, and I've been working with dogs for awhile.

In regards to the growling, I would redirect for growling rather than correct. A dog needs to be comfortable and feel able to use his voice to tell you when he's stressed and needs people to back off.

If he will take treats from strangers, I'd offer them some cookies to feed your dog and when he takes a cookie from them, celebrate.

I turn it into a game. Initially the game is "take a step towards me, you get a cookie", and gradually it becomes "You have to let me touch you while you eat the cookie", and a bit of time after that the rule of the game is "You have to let me touch you BEFORE you get the cookie".

It takes time, but I usually see improvement in a couple of weeks. A dog may never be overjoyed to be touched by strangers, but they learn to tolerate it.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

You should never stop a dog from growling. He is telling you he is not comfortable & to stay away. Like DS said he if you take away his growl he has no alternative than to bite. Give him time to settle in & he may be in a fear period.
http://www.dogclub.co.uk/advice/puppygrowth.php


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Rescue dogs are great pets, but they do come with baggage and you have to understand and work thru all that. After about 2 weeks in a new home a dog is just starting to show their true selves and the "honeymoon period" is over. He's testing limitts to see exactly what he can get away with and establlishing his rank in the pack. personally I would have waited until I had build a rapport with the dog before neutering him. Now not only does he have this new person caring for me, but they also "hurt" me on top of it... wow people suck (in his mind). You need to give him time to properly settle in, learn to trust you then start exposing him to the rest of the family. You really shouldn't be taking him anywhere until he's at least 3-4 weeks healed from his neuter as it can cause him pain even after that amount of time. You're pushing him too hard too fast,


Boy it's kinda like buying a used car you run out and get an oil change maybe some new tires, battery etc. WRONG!!!!

It's a living breathing creature that may accept the new home in 2 weeks or 2 years depending how severely it was abused before it got to new home. We have heard constantly about some kids that are abused and are never the same. Kids hopefully are smarter than dogs. Not all creatures heal at the same speed.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Yes, I agree that this likely fear or stress based behaviour. He barely had time to settle in to the new home and then something stressful (surgery) happened..some dogs take upwards of six weeks to start feeling comfortable enough in a new to environment to show discomfort (sounds weird but it's true). THey are often overwhelmed and therefore SEEM tolerant of a lot when really they are kind of shut down. Your boy was severely undersocialized and this is all new territory for him.

Do NOT punish the growling, he is communicating with you that he is uncomfortable, this is his signal to you to try and find a way to help him be more comfortable with whatever is triggering it.

It is also very important that if he is growling around people that you work at a distance to condition him, some dogs find going up to a person for a treat (trying to trust them, wanting the food) and then having someone attempt to pet them or speak to them VERY intimidating and only proves they made a mistake approaching the human. New person enters, dog gets fed by you. Make sure he has an escape route or safe place (his crate?) to go to if he chooses.

What I would do is work on a targeting exercise (go sniff) or (touch) and work on having him approach the human, give a quick sniff and then return to YOU for a treat. The other person does nothing, no eye contact etc. 

Check out the site www.fearfuldogs.com


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## Purley (Sep 7, 2009)

So - if you don't punish a dog for growling, what do you do? Obviously growling isn't acceptable, at least to me it isn't, so how do you let the dog know that it isn't acceptable?


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Purley said:


> So - if you don't punish a dog for growling, what do you do? Obviously growling isn't acceptable, at least to me it isn't, so how do you let the dog know that it isn't acceptable?



you figure out why he's growling and address THAT issue.

growling is a good thing. it prevents bites if people pay attention. the thing is to get at the cause of the growl.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Really? Because I haven't seen any correlation to what a mix looks like and what a mix acts like, and I've been working with dogs for awhile.


Yeah Ive seen some that do, some that don't, some that have a pretty good mix of behaviors from the mix of breeds.



> I turn it into a game. Initially the game is "take a step towards me, you get a cookie", and gradually it becomes "You have to let me touch you while you eat the cookie", and a bit of time after that the rule of the game is "You have to let me touch you BEFORE you get the cookie".
> 
> It takes time, but I usually see improvement in a couple of weeks. A dog may never be overjoyed to be touched by strangers, but they learn to tolerate it.


I had to do this with my current rescue, Hope. She would take food, but wasn't keen on the touching part. Better part of a year later and she's a total affection hog. Back scratch, ear rub, belly rub, whatever from whoever.

I started doing that game so I could get her to take ear drops, took a couple of weeks. Just extended the you have to let me touch you, to you have to have let me handle and look in your ear, and extended it from there. I used baked chicken and beef though, she would turn down a cookie.. She was easier as she never growls at people or dogs, or the doorbell, and she has little fear. She is pretty much overjoyed with strangers now.

My newest one Kaya is much more fear based, she will not take food from strangers, and is very distrustful of others, dogs or people, and possessive of me. She's going be a tougher case. She would bite a child approaching to pet her too fast, and will growl at any dog that gets close to me and try to block them, even Hope. She's going to take a lot more than a few weeks of conditioning to warm up to strangers, if she ever does.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

put another way..

behavior is symptoms. behavior is an indicator on what is going on in the dog's head. which is where the problem is.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> put another way..
> 
> behavior is symptoms. behavior is an indicator on what is going on in the dog's head. which is where the problem is.


Yeah but what to do to communicate they need to think differently.

When Kaya sucks up to my leg an growls and tries to block another dog from me touching it or petting it, I immediately push her away behind me and kneel down and give the dog a good long petting or treat.

On the presumption she'll figure out it's my choice what dogs come near me, not hers. Worked beautifully with my other GSD rescue, but she wasn't nearly as bad about it.

It has worked to get her to stop doing it with Hope, she postures some now, barks at me if she gets too frustrated by Hope getting attention, but no violence, no lunging or body blocking anymore..

As for growling at strangers, and not being willing to even take food from them, I figure just having strangers treat her, and eventually pet her, and after enough good experiences she'll start letting her guard down and relax with strangers more. She usually warms up to people fine after meeting someone a few times, or spending enough time around them and stops seeing them as a threat.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i wouldnt push her away. id just tie her to something, wait for her to chill, petted the dog and if she stayed chill id toss her a treat and pay her some attention too.

depends on the person's ideas.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

It could just be the dog's personality changing as it gets older. Lots of 9 months old don't act the same when they are 2, etc.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

emily445455 said:


> It could just be the dog's personality changing as it gets older. Lots of 9 months old don't act the same when they are 2, etc.


highly unlikely givin this fellas back ground. He is now being exposed to things he has never experienced before being kept in a yard in a crate. This is social anxiety. fear of the unknown and never being taught how to react. There are definate ages that you expect to see personality or behavioral changes and 9 months really isn't one of them. 7-8 months he's already entering into sexual maturity. 1.5-2 yrs social maturity. 9 months really isn't a big marker age in a dog his size. 

To the OP when you say he was rescued from the yard... was that by you or an organization? Did he go from the yard to a shelter/rescue then to you or yard then directly to you?


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

I agree with all the people who've said that the neutering isn't the problem. It's much more likely that your dog has some fear issues that you need to work with.

You should see the _fear_ as the issue to address, not the growling. Like others said, don't punish for growling, or "show your disapproval." He won't understand that -- he'll just learn that when people are around and he gets stressed, you punish him more, making him associate new people with more bad things.

You could continue taking him around to socialize him, but carry high value treats with you at all times, to give to people to give to him. And don't let people push him at all; let him approach the people, not vice versa. Observe him closely, and when he's nervous or stressed, don't let people touch him. They can toss him treats on the ground until he's comfortable.

I'm curious about this comment: 


Furby said:


> Does he look more like an Aussie? Mixes tend to act like what they look like most.


I saw dog_shrink say this somewhere else, too. What do you guys mean by that? Do you mean that a mix of unknown heritage tends to act like the breed that it looks like?
Or do you mean that if you take two dogs with the same parents, who are half lab and half pit (for example), the offspring that looks more pit will behave more like a pit, and the offspring that looks more lab will behave more lab? Because I think that really has no basis in genetics. You really can NOT tell what genes for behavior a dog got based on which genes they got for appearance.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Deleting this cause I suck at explaining genetics.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

from what i understand, behavior is gewrally thought to be tied to multiple traits, some may be recessive and some dominant...either way it would only produce a tendancy towards specific behavior at best. enviroment does play a part. id like to see what research is there on this. b/c it just doesnt make sense to me.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I wouldn't think appearance traits and behavior traits dependent on the same genes. That any expression of one would not mean expression of the other.

I know the folk on the GSD forum think Kaya is likely pure GSD, she certainly does not act it though. I suspect a mix from her behavior and mannerisms, but it's possible she is I suppose.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Honestly I don't know if there is "scientific proof" to back up this theory, all I know is what 17 years of working with dogs has shown me. Which is that more often that not the dog will generally act most like the breed they outwardly resemble. It would be a good idea for a study tho.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Generally the dominant genes that will display themselves outwardly in a dog's appearance are the dominant genes that will generally rule the dog's overall behavior. When talking genetics it's an odd thing to explain. Dominant and recessive are just as they sound... one is in the fore front and one is in the background contributing in a more minor way to the dog's overall genetic make up. So I guess Yes... if you have a pit/lab and the dog outwardly physically more resembles a pit them it will most likely act more pit but that is not saying that the lab traits will not affect overall temperament like he may be more accepting of other dogs where as a full bred pit may not. It's a delicate balance.


There are a few things wrong there. Where is that DF person who studies genetics?

The genes that determine appearance are different genes than those that determine behavior. Why would you think they are the same genes? It's more complicated than that, even, because sometimes there are links, but... really, you're wrong. The dog could look much more like a pit but behave much more like a lab. That's part of why mixes can't be predicted, and "designer breeds" are so foolish.

And dominant and recessive genes don't work the way you described at all. Recessive genes can be totally unexpressed. Like you can have brown eyes and carry recessive genes for blue eyes that you pass on to your children. It's just much, much more complicated than you realize.

Please, will someone here who knows more about genetics take over?

ETA: Also, any single behavioral trait is contributed to by many, many genes. Not sure if that's clear to you.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I am not the best at explaining genetics, and it doesn't always come out right on paper. I do have a basic understanding of genetics as I breed show rabbits so I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to understanding dominant and recessive traits.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well I have said this before, somewhere there is Chihuaha that acts like a Rott and vice versa. With 50 yrs under my belt I just have a hard time going that route. There are even more variables involved with a mixed breed. My opinion only.


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## lilbecky820 (Nov 16, 2009)

To the OP when you say he was rescued from the yard... was that by you or an organization? Did he go from the yard to a shelter/rescue then to you or yard then directly to you?[/QUOTE]

He was rescued by animal control. He and his three siblings were schedule to be put down when the humane society came to animal control to pick up another animal, saw Logan and his two siblings and took them to the humane society. They were with the human society about 3 weeks before we adopted him.

Update: There has been improvement with Logan. We have been taking him as often as we can a local dog park and he's becoming a lot more confident with other dogs. He loves to run and asks other dogs to chase him a lot. He's no longer afraid to go up to strange dogs.

We have also enrolled him in classes at the local Petsmart. While he still does not let strange people pet him, he will now go up to people on his own to sniff them and take treats from them. During the pet class we switched dogs with other people and why he wouldn't obey their commands, he did have quite fun walking around the store with someone else. So there is progress being made with him. My brother and his girlfriend are over right and Logan has not growled at them yet and will sniff their hands to see if they have treats for him.


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