# Premium Vs. (bad) non premium foods



## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I have been hearing a lot of people being nasty about premium foods and non premium. They say things like "My dog ate Purina it's whole life an did fine".

The non premium foods are not going to kill your dog thats not what they are bad for. We are not telling you that Iams and Eukanuba are going to make your dog sick. Yes your dog can live a long life eating these foods.

But often when you switch to a higher quality type of food your dog will do better. Their Coats will be healthier they may get more energy.

A story from my own mother.

"I used to feed Sprout Dog food to my German Shepherd Dogs, and they did just fine on it, they were healthy and happy. I decided to try a different higher quality and higher protein food and WOW there was such a difference, their coats were better they shed less(of course they still shed they are GSD's haha), and they had so much more energy. Even tho my dogs did fine on Sprout I will never feed it again because I want my dogs to "flourish" not just "Survive"."


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

That has been my experience with Max. He was just fine on kibble, fine on home cooked but raw has been best. I did try to find something to help Sassy's dry skin and itching but never have, not all health problems are due to the wrong food! She now has kidney disease, maybe kibble wasn't the best food for her but weak kidneys are weak and the food couldn't cause them to fail.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Arg, I typed a whole response and then accidentally hit the back button and lost it.

Basically what I said was:

Every owner wants to believe that they are doing the best thing for their pets. Back in the day I fed science diet because that's what my old vet sold -- and I would have sworn that it was the best food! It's embarrassing and kind of hard to admit to, now that I know everything I've learned since then.

I would have said that my animals were doing just fine, and that the food was good. But they universally did better when I switched to higher quality foods. In my last post I went over all the ways that they all improved, but I really don't feel like writing it over again.

Some people on this forum are constantly saying, "Each dog is different, and some dogs do best on Purina." My response is, yeah, and some smokers live to be 90. That doesn't mean people should smoke! Some people eat hot dogs every day, or pizza every night. Does that mean they are thriving, just because they aren't sick yet? Nope.

It's all about the ingredients. There's no disputing it.


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## Ayanla (Jun 11, 2009)

Everyone has to find a balance between cost, nutrition, convenience, and availability.

If one of those things is out of your comfort zone, you change foods. 

I honestly believe raw is probably the best diet for dogs, but I don't feed it to either of mine. I considered it, but decided against it primarily because of the inconvenience. I barely find time to make dinner for the family, much less finding extra time to make sure the dog's raw diet is nutritionally sound. 

For me, the balance comes with a grain free high protein dry kibble and quality treats. Several years ago I fed my cats a premium food, and they did amazingly. I switched to Purina when the store went out of business because I couldn't find another place within reasonable driving that stocked the premium foods. 

The cats are still alive after two years on Purina, and they're not sick. They still have fur, it's still soft. They look fine. They shed more heavily and they poop with more volume, though, which results in more cleaning and litterbox scooping. 

Now that I've found a local source for the dog's food, I have switched the cats to Nature's Balance Green Pea & Salmon grain free food. I'm interested to see how it affects them.

Edit to add:

I look at it this way, from a nutritional standpoint. Let's say you could eat only one meal for the rest of your life. Your choices are:
Meal A - Breaded chicken fingers, french fries, corn, pecan pie, and a glass of chocolate milk
Meal B - Grilled lean chicken breast, brown rice, steamed broccoli/carrot mix, strawberries covered with light cream, and a glass of skim milk

Meal A will get you through. It's got meat, it's got starch, it's got a veggie, it's got some fats and sugars, and it's got dairy. You won't die eating it all day every day. That doesn't change the fact that, nutritionally, Meal B is better. It has more of what your body needs and less of what it doesn't. To me, that's the comparison between "grocery brand" dog foods and "premium" foods.


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> I honestly believe raw is probably the best diet for dogs, but I don't feed it to either of mine. I considered it, but decided against it primarily because of the inconvenience. I barely find time to make dinner for the family, much less finding extra time to make sure the dog's raw diet is nutritionally sound.
> 
> For me, the balance comes with a grain free high protein dry kibble and quality treats. .


+1 Sound thinking here.


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## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

I guess this is an appropriate time to ask then, what do you suppose a "healthy, flourishing dog" means? 

A lot of people think that their dogs are perfectly healthy if not completely beautiful and in extremely fine form. I've always wonder what noticeable difference can you see between a healthy dog and a dog that is said to be "thriving"? 

The only reason I'm asking this is that my in-laws feed Science Diet T/D and C/D to their 3 dogs and they look and seem fine to me except that one of them obviously has a bladder problem. Never had an anal gland problem, ever. Although one of them came with heartworms and mange, the other was overweight, and one just had a tumor removed. Everyone always comments on how beautiful their dogs are. 

On the other hand, I feed my dog Orijen, do rotational feeding, give him organic pumpkin, organic yogurt, organic coconut oil and organic coconut flakes and grain-free treats and he still has anal gland problems and every once in a while has itchy skin. 

So what makes a dog healthy, and how does it differ from "thriving?"


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

dieterherzog said:


> I guess this is an appropriate time to ask then, what do you suppose a "healthy, flourishing dog" means?
> 
> A lot of people think that their dogs are perfectly healthy if not completely beautiful and in extremely fine form. I've always wonder what noticeable difference can you see between a healthy dog and a dog that is said to be "thriving"?
> 
> ...


Try taking out the

"do rotational feeding, give him organic pumpkin, organic yogurt, organic coconut oil and organic coconut flakes"

They don't "need" anything else - that's probably your problem OR: stick to RAW


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

I just don't understand why people get into such big debates over this. What someone else feeds their dog is really of very little concern to me - particularly if they insist that their dog IS indeed thriving and healthy. It's their dog...what do I know? I'm not a vet and I know nothing about that particular dog's health (first hand) so I'm really in no position to make contradictory claims about it.

I'm not saying that there aren't arguments that can be made for the benefits of 'premium' food (I feed a premium brand myself due to allergies), I just don't think it's the be all and end all. If the dog is happy, healthy, and loved (or florishing. Whatever word you want to use) then I'm really not going to fault an owner for food choice. If the food really is causing a problem for the dog (itchy skin, for example) then it's on the owner to fix it and if they don't/aren't...that's a whole other thread.

Basically, live and let live.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

^^ Yes, this ^^


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

for me, i feed Purina One and i have no intentions of switching again...i have tried the "premium" brands and that was where my problems began....loss of coat and dull/stiff/lifeless, loss of energy, loss of brightness in their eyes, more poop to clean up, weight loss unless i doubled the amount fed.....and i had many people that have known my dogs for yrs ask me what the he!! i had done to them.....

my dogs have nice soft/shiny/full coats, bright eyes that dance, poop 2x a day, eat 2 c a day instead of 4, and could go till the cows come home....i'll stay w/ what works for my kids....


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

tirluc said:


> .i have tried the "premium" brands and that was where my problems began....loss of coat and dull/stiff/lifeless, loss of energy, loss of brightness in their eyes, more poop to clean up, weight loss unless i doubled the amount fed.


This is extremely hard to believe -sorry

please tell me what "premium" brand you tried and what you feed now, and how long you had the dog on the "premium" food for before giving up. This is the exact opposite of almost everyone elses experience.


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## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

bully said:


> Try taking out the
> 
> "do rotational feeding, give him organic pumpkin, organic yogurt, organic coconut oil and organic coconut flakes"
> 
> They don't "need" anything else - that's probably your problem OR: stick to RAW


Are you recommending I don't do rotational feeding?


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

bully said:


> This is extremely hard to believe -sorry
> 
> please tell me what "premium" brand you tried and what you feed now, and how long you had the dog on the "premium" food for before giving up. This is the exact opposite of almost everyone elses experience.


personally, i don't care if you believe me or not, but i have tried Canidae, NB, Orijen, and a couple others that i don't recall the name of....they were on them for anywhere for 4-6 mo and things went from "good" (only excessive pooping) to bad after the 1st 3 wks (total loss of under coat, dry/brittle/dull top coat, no give a $%*! about going to the park and less time spent there when we went, loss of "shine" to the eyes, etc)....and i wasn't the only one to notice it, but it took me longer to "pinpoint" what was wrong than it should have

and, personally, i really have a problem when people that don't know me or my dogs start trying to tell me that i am feeding my dogs crap and lying about how they do on the so called better stuff....they're my dogs, i see them everyday, and i know what condition they are in....you don't

(ok, time to stay away from food debates)


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Some people's animals do well on Iams and Pedigree and such but have severe diarrhea on premium foods like Innova, Wellness, EVO, Orijen, etc. I'm not sure why, some dogs don't do well on very good food.

That being said, all 3 of our dogs do perfectly on high protein, low carb. We've never experienced dogs having problems on premium food although we know of people that do.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i had a GSD yrs ago that i had a devil of a time keeping weight on....my vet recommended to me a food that, at the time, was considered a premium food....this was 24 yrs ago so i don't recall the name and i don't think they even make it anymore....the food cost me, then, $30 a 25 lb bag....this GSD of mine was going thru 14 c a day of this food....i couldn't afford that at the time (i was a single mother) and it was barely keeping weight on....then Purina put out Pro Plan, so i tried him on it....what a difference...8 c a day and he barely finished that and i never had another weight problem again....plus his coat was shiny and soft, stools were less and i could afford to feed my dog and not have to find him a new home....


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

tirluc said:


> this GSD of mine was going thru 14 c a day of this food....i couldn't afford that at the time (i was a single mother) and it was barely keeping weight on....then Purina put out Pro Plan, so i tried him on it....what a difference...8 c a day and he barely finished that and i never had another weight problem again....plus his coat was shiny and soft, stools were less and i could afford to feed my dog and not have to find him a new home....


Wow that's a ton of food! Most GSDs I know on premium food eat about 3 cups a day... A 80 lbs GSD that lives in me eats 2 3/4 cup of EVO a day. I'm a little shocked that a 70-80 lbs dog can eat 8 cups...or even more extreme 14 cups a day. The dog I know is called cowboy and he gets a 5 mile run a day plus an hr of fetch every morning...

I know a few 100+ lbs dogs that only eat 2-3 cups a day.


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## RubyLove (May 4, 2009)

Dakota Spirit said:


> I just don't understand why people get into such big debates over this. What someone else feeds their dog is really of very little concern to me - particularly if they insist that their dog IS indeed thriving and healthy. It's their dog...what do I know? I'm not a vet and I know nothing about that particular dog's health (first hand) so I'm really in no position to make contradictory claims about it.
> 
> I'm not saying that there aren't arguments that can be made for the benefits of 'premium' food (I feed a premium brand myself due to allergies), I just don't think it's the be all and end all. If the dog is happy, healthy, and loved (or florishing. Whatever word you want to use)...then I'm really not going to fault an owner for food choice. If the food really is causing a problem for the dog (itchy skin, for example) then it's on the owner to fix it and if they don't/aren't...that's a whole other thread.
> 
> Basically, live and let live.


I agree completely with this. Several times I have felt like I should post to justify what I feed my dog, and then I realised it wasn't up to anyone else to judge me for it. Yes, I will probably be trying her on premium foods in the future, and if she does better on them then that is great. But she is currently doing well on the food she is on, and right now that is all that matters.


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## Taz Monkey (Sep 2, 2007)

Personally, I feed premium. Mine are on Taste of the Wild right now, and the fat beagle is on California Natural. Do I give a hoot about what other people feed? Not at all. If your dog is healthy, well taken care of, and treated as a family member, I don't care of you feed Pedigree.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Ayanla said:


> Edit to add:
> 
> I look at it this way, from a nutritional standpoint. Let's say you could eat only one meal for the rest of your life. Your choices are:
> Meal A - Breaded chicken fingers, french fries, corn, pecan pie, and a glass of chocolate milk
> ...


I agree with this completely. You can live on diet A but you will feel better and probably live a longer healthier life on diet on diet B. That said, if you could add some Doritoes onto that diet A... I fear I would chose that for myself. 

Thankfully I have better control of my dogs diet and chose diet B.


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

I would also choose diet A for myself. Along with mucho coffee and ciggerettes.

My dogs and cat, however, eat premium.


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## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

I have two dogs...one can eat anything and one can't. However, they both do very well on raw. I keep trying to find a premium kibble that the sensitve dog will do well on. She is just one that does best on non premium foods. I am currently trying her on Nature's Logic, I'm keeping my fingers crossed! I don't want to keep her on mediocre food that contains lots of grain fragments and gluten meals. I do not think that corn and wheat gluten are a good subsitute for meat proteins.

I do feed raw, but only 30 -50% or their diet is raw, I need to keep kibble in their diet for other reasons.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Wow that's a ton of food! Most GSDs I know on premium food eat about 3 cups a day... A 80 lbs GSD that lives in me eats 2 3/4 cup of EVO a day. I'm a little shocked that a 70-80 lbs dog can eat 8 cups...or even more extreme 14 cups a day. The dog I know is called cowboy and he gets a 5 mile run a day plus an hr of fetch every morning...
> 
> I know a few 100+ lbs dogs that only eat 2-3 cups a day.


Sir weighed in at 125 at his "nice" weight....if i had him at what the vet recommended he would have been about 5-10 lbs more.....but that was still alot of food...i think he burned it while sleeping, even...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I've had dogs do terribly on EVO and other premium foods. Of course the same dog also did terribly on Purina... We've tried a LOT of foods to find one all 5 do well on.

Right now we're what I'd call upper middle of the road. Feeding Eagle Pack Holistic and loving it. We're on our 5th or 6th bag in a row and everyone is still doing great. No more runny poos- yay!

It's all about finding the best foods for your specific dogs. Mine did badly on EVO (well one did well on evo the rest didnt), Canidae, Purina One... What works best for us is Fromm, Blue Buffalo, and Eagle Pack.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

tirluc said:


> Sir weighed in at 125 at his "nice" weight....if i had him at what the vet recommended he would have been about 5-10 lbs more.....but that was still alot of food...i think he burned it while sleeping, even...


Even at 125 lbs or 150 lbs...I don't think 8 cups a day can be justified. It's just strange to me. I would say a 125ish lbs dog should only need about 4 cups if they're active... 4 cups (of course depending on the food) would be around 2000 calories. 8 cups would be 4000 calories, unless your dog was working at least a half a day I can't imagine he would need 4000 calories a day. But then again he's your dog, you should know what he needs, not me. It's just that I've never heard of a dog eating so much just to keep weight on.

But then again there are people like Michael Phelps, 12000 a day and perfectly lean. His body is a machine lol.

All 3 of our dogs have done the best on Orijen/other high protein food. Dogs are just different that's all.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> I look at it this way, from a nutritional standpoint. Let's say you could eat only one meal for the rest of your life. Your choices are:
> Meal A - Breaded chicken fingers, french fries, corn, pecan pie, and a glass of chocolate milk
> Meal B - Grilled lean chicken breast, brown rice, steamed broccoli/carrot mix, strawberries covered with light cream, and a glass of skim milk
> 
> Meal A will get you through. It's got meat, it's got starch, it's got a veggie, it's got some fats and sugars, and it's got dairy. You won't die eating it all day every day. That doesn't change the fact that, nutritionally, Meal B is better. It has more of what your body needs and less of what it doesn't. To me, that's the comparison between "grocery brand" dog foods and "premium" foods.


Good analogy!



Dakota Spirit said:


> I just don't understand why people get into such big debates over this. What someone else feeds their dog is really of very little concern to me - particularly if they insist that their dog IS indeed thriving and healthy. It's their dog...what do I know? I'm not a vet and I know nothing about that particular dog's health (first hand) so I'm really in no position to make contradictory claims about it.
> ...
> Basically, live and let live.


The reason that I get involved when there's a debate is that it really, really bothers me what the crappy dog and cat food companies are getting away with. I think it's completely immoral. Every time I see a commercial for Purina that touts it as healthy and natural, I get angry. They (and all the companies that are even worse) are basically poisoning people's pets, while feeding them the lie that they are doing the right thing for those pets. It infuriates me!

The other reason is that I know there are plenty of people who come to this website who don't know anything about this debate, and have never really thought about it before. I want to make sure they go away better informed, or at least willing to think about it.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

canteloupe said:


> The reason that I get involved when there's a debate is that it really, really bothers me what the crappy dog and cat food companies are getting away with. I think it's completely immoral. Every time I see a commercial for Purina that touts it as healthy and natural, I get angry. They (and all the companies that are even worse) are basically poisoning people's pets, while feeding them the lie that they are doing the right thing for those pets. It infuriates me!
> 
> The other reason is that I know there are plenty of people who come to this website who don't know anything about this debate, and have never really thought about it before. I want to make sure they go away better informed, or at least willing to think about it.


I can understand that and when asked, I have no problem outlining the benefits of higher end foods. But to me, that's different then arguing with someone who is feeding the food, who IS informed, and who is (according to them) getting good results. And most of the debates I see regarding dog food (on this forum) seem to fall into that latter category. In those instances you really aren't informing anyone, it's more a battle of wills until someone gives up and leaves the thread. 

I have no qualms about handing out information and striving to better inform owners that are still on the cusp of making their choice - but I still believe it to be the owner's choice in the end. They are still the most qualified to see and decide what works best for their dog. And I'm not going to continue going on about the 'garbage food' they feed (not saying you or anyone specific does this - just a general observation of behavior in past food debates) at that point. Informing someone doesn't mean berating them. It's laying out the information so they can, as you said, think about it and come to their conclusion with those facts in mind. It may not be the choice you agree with but agian, it is their choice to make.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Dakota Spirit said:


> I can understand that and when asked, I have no problem outlining the benefits of higher end foods. But to me, that's different then arguing with someone who IS feeding the food, who is informed, and who is (according to them) getting good results. And most of the debates I see regarding dog food (on this forum) seem to fall into that latter category. In those instances you really aren't informing anyone, it's more or a battle of wills until someone gives up and leaves the thread.


It's not about the one person who is saying their dogs love purina, or whatever; it's about all the people who might be reading the thread, who aren't committed to one thing yet, or don't know anything about it.

Anyway, I think a lot of the people who post pro-premium posts aren't arguing anyone into the ground. Myself included. There might be a few posters who go over the top with it, but most of us are just stating our experiences and opinions, and citing our favorite resources, like dogfoodanalysis.com.

I disagree with your statement that most of the debates here are people arguing with someone who is feeding non-premium food. To me, it seems like most of the discussions are created by someone who is wondering what to feed, and wants advice.


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## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

Which makes me come back to the question I asked earlier before being "bullied" by a raw proponent: What is the difference between a healthy dog and a "thriving" dog? Is it anything visible? Dogs on Science Diet live up to 17 doggie years, look perfectly fine and I can never tell the difference.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

canteloupe said:


> Anyway, I think a lot of the people who post pro-premium posts aren't arguing anyone into the ground. Myself included. There might be a few posters who go over the top with it, but most of us are just stating our experiences and opinions, and citing our favorite resources, like dogfoodanalysis.com.


Which is great, when someone asks for it. Or even in the general "for every one's information" sharing of facts. But all too often (in this thread even, tirluc's posts serve as an example) someone posts _their_ GOOD experiences with 'bad foods' and they are immediatly questioned regarding the validity of it or whatever. Heck, that's what this thread is ABOUT. The idea that regardless of how well an owner feels (or knows) their dog is doing, they could be SO much better if they were only fed a premium food. That's not really sharing information, IMO.


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## ginoginnetti (Sep 10, 2009)

Ok i'm new here please could you advise on brands of premium foods also my boy is only 11 weeks and isnt keen on dried food of which i would prefer him to have.Hes a GSD X Akita ive been giving him winalot puppy as this is what he was having when i got him. his coat isnt as soft and shiny as i thought it should be but i was informed it was the Akita in him???
I want to do the best i can for him
regards
gina


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

ginoginnetti said:


> Ok i'm new here please could you advise on brands of premium foods also my boy is only 11 weeks and isnt keen on dried food of which i would prefer him to have.Hes a GSD X Akita ive been giving him winalot puppy as this is what he was having when i got him. his coat isnt as soft and shiny as i thought it should be but i was informed it was the Akita in him???
> I want to do the best i can for him
> regards
> gina


Personally I feed a primarily raw diet that's basically prey model. But I'm not a purist and do occasionally give a bit of veggie and do feed some kibble. I just don't mix the two. The kibble I currently use is Taste of the Wild but i do still have some the breeder sent (ProPlan). Now my pup is just 3 months old and I'm still getting proportions right so I do go through the occasional day of loose stools but we're getting there. So far the only meat I'm feeding is chicken and I haven't added any liver in yet.

It's hard to tell you to feed X brand and your dogs will do wonderfully well. I totally believe raw is best and, even if you feed kibble and/or canned dog food, in my opinion, adding some raw meaty bones to their diet would probably be a good thing. I would also look into feeding a grain-free kibble or at least one without corn, wheat or soy, which are the grains that seem to cause the most problems. There are many choices out there and the best thing to do is find one/s that work best for your dogs as well as for your budget.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

ginoginnetti said:


> Ok i'm new here please could you advise on brands of premium foods also my boy is only 11 weeks and isnt keen on dried food of which i would prefer him to have.Hes a GSD X Akita ive been giving him winalot puppy as this is what he was having when i got him. his coat isnt as soft and shiny as i thought it should be but i was informed it was the Akita in him???
> I want to do the best i can for him
> regards
> gina


Ha! Case in point. You see what I mean?

Gino, check out dogfoodanalysis.com and dogfoodproject.com to learn about evaluating dog food brands.

Dakota spirit, that's fine if people feel their dog does best on the "bad foods." It does seem like lately there are an abundance of people who are saying purina etc. are just as good as the premium, grain free foods. When people say stuff like this it irks me because it isn't just their dog, or their experience that they're talking about -- they're actually making a claim about the quality of the foods that I think is unsupported.

Anyway, I don't really want to talk about this anymore. I don't think I need to explain or defend my posts, in particular, because I don't think I'm one of the people who "question ... the validity" of people's "GOOD experiences with 'bad foods'". So maybe I didn't even need to post the responses I already made. Basically, I was just explaining my own feelings, and why I bother to post about this stuff. Even though it gets a little boring, I feel a social reponsibility.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Cantelope - I think I said somewhere in my first post to you that my statements were not directed at you personally. For what it's worth, I don't think you're one of the people that does it either. I wasn't expecting you to defend anything. I only posted about the things I did (people questioning other's experience, for example) because that's what this thread was essentially about. My apologies if I misunderstood something you were trying to say.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Oh yes, I wasn't bothered by your posts. Sorry if it came across that way. I just meant that I don't really have anything else to say about it. And I wanted to distance myself from any approach that questions the validity of people's statements about their dogs being healthy.

I'm tired right now, so I'm not expressing myself very well.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Michiyo-Fir said:


> Even at 125 lbs or 150 lbs...I don't think 8 cups a day can be justified. It's just strange to me. I would say a 125ish lbs dog should only need about 4 cups if they're active... 4 cups (of course depending on the food) would be around 2000 calories. 8 cups would be 4000 calories, unless your dog was working at least a half a day I can't imagine he would need 4000 calories a day. But then again he's your dog, you should know what he needs, not me. It's just that I've never heard of a dog eating so much just to keep weight on.
> 
> But then again there are people like Michael Phelps, 12000 a day and perfectly lean. His body is a machine lol.
> 
> All 3 of our dogs have done the best on Orijen/other high protein food. Dogs are just different that's all.


I wonder if the dog was intact. When Dusk was on kibble, I had to feed him 6 cups a day of TOTW to keep weight on him. Most show people feed proplan, and those males are eating between 7-9 cups a day. Doberman males weigh 80 to 90 lbs. A friend of mine had a male with a very high metabolism. She was feeding him 8 cups a day plus 1 pound of cooked hamburger meat every day. Now that seems ridiculous to me since Dusk only eats 2lbs 4ounces a day on raw. Maybe she was just cooking the heck out of that meat.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

DobManiac said:


> I wonder if the dog was intact. When Dusk was on kibble, I had to feed him 6 cups a day of TOTW to keep weight on him. Most show people feed proplan, and those males are eating between 7-9 cups a day. Doberman males weigh 80 to 90 lbs. A friend of mine had a male with a very high metabolism. She was feeding him 8 cups a day plus 1 pound of cooked hamburger meat every day. Now that seems ridiculous to me since Dusk only eats 2lbs 4ounces a day on raw. Maybe she was just cooking the heck out of that meat.


yes, he was intact....he was showing at the time.....


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## AkiraleShiba (Dec 9, 2007)

Ithought my dog was doing great on premium kibble when I realised thay he's doing more than excellent on RAW 



ginoginnetti said:


> Ok i'm new here please could you advise on brands of premium foods also my boy is only 11 weeks and isnt keen on dried food of which i would prefer him to have.Hes a GSD X Akita ive been giving him winalot puppy as this is what he was having when i got him. his coat isnt as soft and shiny as i thought it should be but i was informed it was the Akita in him???
> I want to do the best i can for him
> regards
> gina


Um Akitas have great fluffy husky like coats ! So IF he is part Akita (or not) bad coat is a sign that the kibble your feeding is not Okaying with your dog.


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## Stelladog (Aug 18, 2008)

Like a previous poster, I fed Science Diet and thought I was giving one of the best foods. So, I don't judge other people on what they feed, but I would want to make them aware that there are brands considered "healthier" and more "organic" and that SD is not on that list (nor are most brands they sell at Petsmart).

When my dog got cancer, I did spend some time trying to research if there were any know causes/factors. Pretty much we don't know, but I did find that many standard dog food did have proteins/additives/binder/colors that were listed as possible carcinogens and could not be in people food. This is of course a gray area, but overall food seemed a more likely factor than environmental or medical sources.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

I, personally, will do whatever I can to avoid feeding my dog any kibble, premium or otherwise. Not because there are not good kibbles available; there are better ones and worse ones. I just don't believe in feeding my dog processed food. That's just my opinion; I'm not saying if you feed kibble, you're a bad dog owner or that you don't love your dog. 

Having said that, I think in forming an opinion, you have to consider what 'healthy' means to you. Does it mean just being alive and walking? Or does it mean bright eyes, glossy coat? Or does it mean full of vitality, energy and regular appetite, urination and bowel movements? So if the food you're feeding produces the results that make your dog what you think is healthy, then great. But just remember that genes are a huge part of the equation. Trust me, if I could have even just a fraction of my father's gene that controlled the speed of my metabolism, I would be a happy girl but no, my brothers got all of the fat burning genes. I could eat salad forever and my body would still find fat to store. 

But really, if we all ate fresh, unprocessed, pure foods in proper portions, we would all be healthy, along with our pets. 

However, if I had to choose kibble, I would choose the premium ones. I know Kiri does better on the premium ones so that would be my choice. I'm sure much of that choice is based on B.S. marketing just as the non-premium food companies dish out but I guess we're all victims to that.....


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

ok, so, if this: 


> Or does it mean bright eyes, glossy coat? Or does it mean full of vitality, energy and regular appetite, urination and bowel movements?


is what everyone considers "healthy looking" in a dog (or any living being, which, to me, indicates thriving, not just existing/getting by) then i would say that my dogs are perfectly healthy eating the P.O. and they were not when they were eating the "premium" foods.....

so, i guess what it all boils down to is it depends on the individual dog 

oh, and just an added tidbit here, 2 friends of mine that each have a sibling of Titch's (Tir's pups) tried the gamut of "premium" foods for both the sibs (they are very big on the "quality" feeding, as well) and both those dogs did crappy on the brands they tried....so, they tried P.O. (at my suggestion) and the dogs are doing fantastic on it....bright, shining eyes and coat; lots of energy from sun up to sundown; good, healthy poops (and not to many)....


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Ayanla said:


> I look at it this way, from a nutritional standpoint. Let's say you could eat only one meal for the rest of your life. Your choices are:
> Meal A - Breaded chicken fingers, french fries, corn, pecan pie, and a glass of chocolate milk
> Meal B - Grilled lean chicken breast, brown rice, steamed broccoli/carrot mix, strawberries covered with light cream, and a glass of skim milk


I tire of those invalid comparisons. The cheaper dog foods are still the same well balanced diet as the more expensive ones. They just get there using cheaper ingredients. They are more like the low cost but nutritious meals served in institutions. 

Before the current form of the net existed, we were raising puppies for a large dog guide school that feeds Pro Plan, no better rated than Science, Iams, etc. Once I started reading how awful it was, I started digging. What I have learned is that many other service dog schools with all their resources to determine the best diet and the incentive to do so, are feeding back of the pack chows including Iams, Science Diet, and Pro Plan. I have not been able to find any research backing up the claims of the premium chows.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

> > Originally Posted by *Ayanla*
> > _I look at it this way, from a nutritional standpoint. Let's say you could eat only one meal for the rest of your life. Your choices are:
> > Meal A - Breaded chicken fingers, french fries, corn, pecan pie, and a glass of chocolate milk
> > Meal B - Grilled lean chicken breast, brown rice, steamed broccoli/carrot mix, strawberries covered with light cream, and a glass of skim milk_
> ...


Actually, the analogy holds up to yours as well. Breaded chicken fingers use lower quality chicken than lean chicken breast. Sure it's still _chicken_, but lower quality. That's how McDonald's can charge the same price for 10 McNuggets as a single breast from the grocery store.

I would postulate that part of the reason research shows non-premium brands are as balanced as premium is that Iams, Eukanuba, et al are the ones paying for the research to be done.

Sidebar: Is your username supposed to be "Labs no others" or "Labs and others"? I've been trying to figure it out all day.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I'd just like to add that it's also good to know where your dog food gets their supplies like meat meal, etc. I tend to not trust companies that get their ingredients from cheaper chinese plants/mass production plants since the recall a while back. A very large number of companies had reports of very ill and dying pets.

for now, I only stick to foods that have their own manufacturing plant and weren't previously affected by the recall.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Yes, it turned out ugly, perhaps Labs'n'others would have been better. Our family is getting our 20'th Lab to raise as a service dog. We have also raised 2 Shepherds, a golden, and a Lab/Golden. I see many other dogs in the programs although they are dominated by Labs. 

It is funny the highly experienced professionals with every possible resource still choose common brands for the highly valuable service dogs.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Labsnothers said:


> Yes, it turned out ugly, perhaps Labs'n'others would have been better. Our family is getting our 20'th Lab to raise as a service dog. We have also raised 2 Shepherds, a golden, and a Lab/Golden. I see many other dogs in the programs although they are dominated by Labs.
> 
> It is funny the highly experienced professionals with every possible resource still choose common brands for the highly valuable service dogs.


I don't think that is necessarily true....I think some highly experienced people might still use "common brands" if that works for them...I don't see that proves oneway or the other what is better.....I know a ton who don't.....they feed raw... people that breed, show, are involved in obed ,mainly S&R, and Cadaver search and recover.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> It is funny the highly experienced professionals with every possible resource still choose common brands for the highly valuable service dogs.


You know, I wonder if it's a genetic thing. Are a lot of the service dogs related? That might carry some weight in what they do well on. Tirluc's dogs and their littermates suggest some genetic component. Just speculating here, but it's a thought.


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## PetLvr100 (Oct 12, 2009)

I found a new food that you might like. It's called Rotations, and the concept is a rotating diet for your dog. It comes in a box with three bags inside; each bag is a different kind of food (chicken, salmon, lamb) and you rotate from one bag to the next. It's a smart concept because it allows your dog to have a balanced diet, variety of taste, and it's all natural/USA made. My dog used to get really bored with his food and stop eating, but once I started him on Rotations, the variety keeps him happy and he loves the new tastes. Also, they have a puppy line for your little one...


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> You know, I wonder if it's a genetic thing. Are a lot of the service dogs related? That might carry some weight in what they do well on. Tirluc's dogs and their littermates suggest some genetic component. Just speculating here, but it's a thought.


I wouldn't be surprised if it is. Yes there is a certain interrelatedness. Early this year there was a meeting that included 5 Shepherd puppies. The Shepherd I raised was grandmother to all of them. But their Labs and Goldens aren't related to the Shepherds. I can say the food sensitive and allergy prone dogs are never selected as breeding stock. Bloat is rare in the program too. The main food issues that come up in meeting and training sessions all involve how much. Assuring the Shepherd raisers it is OK if the ribs show a little, and telling some with Labs and Goldens to cut back. 

They are careful to maintain genetic diversity. Quite often they will use a donated male as a stud breeding him to many of their females that come from different lines. 

The different schools also trade breeding stock. 

I have to wonder about those claiming to be breeding to ''improve the breed'' that use dogs as breeding stock that they went through a half dozen different expensive foods before finding one the dog would tolerate.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Labsnothers said:


> I have to wonder about those claiming to be breeding to ''improve the breed'' that use dogs as breeding stock that they went through a half dozen different expensive foods before finding one the dog would tolerate.


That really doesn't happen. Most breeders are pretty stuck on the food they have chosen to feed. It's very rare for them to change brands. What I have noticed is that new people to showing or competition put in extra research and then test out different foods. But most dogs you see in conformation shows are being feed a grocery store brand. Some breeders have switched to grainfree like my mentor has after lots of discussions with me. And a few fee RAW.


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## ArohaSpringer (Oct 12, 2009)

I've fed a "premium" food to my dogs and cats for five or six years now. Before that they ate Iams. All of them. I switched because Buzz has allergies. They aren't gone completely but he feels a whole lot better, consistently.

I typically feed Fromm Salmon and raw (chicken, pork, venison, beef) to the dogs. It is about how they look, but it's also about how comfortable I am feeding a certain food. For a while this spring they both ate Kirkland when I had to cut costs somewhere as vet bills were running high. They did fine on it, as did the cats, but I'm more comfortable with them eating Fromm and raw. Peace of mind for me, based on research.


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## DogsforMe (Mar 11, 2007)

I had this problem today when I went to a pet warehouse to buy my dog food. I have been feeding her on Advance since she was a puppy when I used to feed Innova. In between the 2 I used to feed Supercoat until I found it had beet pulp in it. I'd read somewhere that it wasn't good for dogs. 

I know corn isn't good for dogs also but a lot of brands use it in one form or another including Advance. I wanted a change for the better but the ones I looked at this morning either had corn or beet pulp or both. The brands were Nutrience, Canidae, Pro Plan & others, I can't recall atm. We don't have the brands availabe as you do in the US. One that a lot of Aussie ppl use on an Aussie forum is Great Barko & Uncle Albers. 


The ingredients say grains, which I'm suspicious of as it doesn't list them & could include corn. Another ingredient is soy. Is this worse or better for dogs than corn?
http://www.lauckemills.com.au/dogfood1.html


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

bully said:


> This is extremely hard to believe -sorry
> 
> please tell me what "premium" brand you tried and what you feed now, and how long you had the dog on the "premium" food for before giving up. This is the exact opposite of almost everyone elses experience.


Actually, Tirluc's experience pretty much parallels mine.

And it makes no differnce to me whether you believe it or not.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I've had better results after switching dogs from Purina, Eukanuba and Nutro. This was with 3 Shih Tzu, a Coonhound and Chihuahua. The issues that went away were yeasty ears, pink stains on fur, excess shedding and dull coat. I did have a Cocker Spaniel and Shar Pei whose condition didn't change from switching from non premium food to premium.

For me the biggest issue with non premium food is the ingredients that can silently take their toll over time, like BHA/BHT, ethoxyquin, animal digest, animal fat, artificial colors and flavors, etc.


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