# 8 week old Airedale. What's too agressive?



## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

I've been reading through these forums. I read "The Bite Stops Here". I've also consumed as much info on positive reinforcement training as I could.

We've had our Airedale for just over 2 weeks. He's very smart. Already goes to the door when he needs to potty, have had very few accidents inside and no accidents in the crate. He's even learned sit and leave it...when I have treats.

Our main concern is that he sometimes gets a little too agressive. When his energy gets high, he can really do some damage. We have the scratches to show it.

We've tried many things. We started out with the "ouch" method, but pretty soon he stopped being startled and letting go when we said "ouch". We've also tried time outs in an exercise pen.

When training, He will sit and I'll click and treat for him letting me pet/scratch his head, belly, chest, chin, etc. He does this really well and very rarely gets mouthy. But this is only when I have treats and a clicker.

He does not resource guard. I always make him sit quietly before feeding.

We've tried ignoring when he bites, but he bites our feet and legs and it's hard to ignore needles going into your leg and drawing blood on occasion.

I've tried to stay calm in these situations because I know if I get upset, it's likely to just make him upset.

Once he gets his 2nd puppy shot this upcoming week (9 weeks) we'll be taking him on walks and out to socialize with people and other dogs. We're really keeping our fingers crossed that this helps.

Any suggestions?


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

the first problem is that hes 8 weeks and you have had him for 2 weeks.... he was taken from the little FAR too early and never got to appropriately learn.


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## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

I'm beginning to wish I had gotten him at 8 weeks. But the closest Airedale breeder to us was 6 hours away and that's when they released theirs. So it wasn't really my choice, sadly.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

6 hours isnt that bad. thats how far i went to get my second dane. im not sure where you are from, but a lot of places have laws about selling pups before 8wks of age.


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## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

The breeder was in Tennessee.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Is it aggression, or just playing rough? Their is a huge difference. 

My pups are 9 weeks old. They bite, even drawing blood, and its play. They are just rough dogs, and I don't mind the playing and wrestling. They bite each other, extremely rough. Then there is aggression. When one pup has had enough, they will attack the other, its a firm bite, violent shaking and a different growl than when playing. When one gives in, there is posturing and the "loser" has totally different body language and usually leaves, while the "winner" follows with more growling, stiff legs, tail up and hackles raised.

When this is shown as human aggression, usually it is aimed for your arm, hand, or leg. It is not the same as the growling and snapping with play, usually the pup is MAD! They may act out in a bite, and usually will leave, not continue jumping and playing.


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## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

I think it's play, but occasionally it gets so rough it's hard to tell. And if he is biting and we go to put him in time out, once we pick him up he struggles trying to bite because he knows he's in trouble.

But once he's in his ex-pen, after about 45 seconds, he has already calmed down and is either sitting or laying down. We try to reward him anytime he's being calm and well-behaved. But still it escalates sometimes.

So it's nothing he can't be snapped out of. Just sometimes it's as easy as distracting him with a toy. Other times he wants to bite our legs no matter how many times we dodge him.


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## ManyRoses (May 28, 2012)

Being separated so early is a big issue. We had this issue, but ours is a rescue - the litter was abandoned before they were old enough. You absolutely had a choice when it came to this - don't go to the breeder. 6hours is NOTHING, seriously. Many people will fly across the country to get a dog from the best possible breeder. Or you could have got a different breed. Or a rescue. Saying "I had to go to this bad breeder because they were the only one close to me" is kind of like saying "I had to go get this puppy from a pet shop that I know uses mills because it was the closest place". I'm not trying to attack you here, I just feel the need to point out that you did have a choice. 

Anyway. On to the issue at hand. 

I feel your pain. Our girl does this a little when we are walking - it is absolutely excited play-biting, and there is zero aggression in it, but she is still learning bite inhibition, so it can be pretty sore. As a rule, puppy owners get a few puncture wounds over the first few months, because baby teeth are sharp, and puppies don't know the strength of their bite. 

- Try to make sure that you are teaching bit inhibition with softer bites, and during gentler play. It's very easy to ignore the bites that don't hurt, but read "the bite stops here" thread about the stages of teaching bite inhibition, and work with the pup when it is not so worked up that it gets too rough. 
- If he doesn't respond to the "ouch" it is probably because of the early separation. He didn't learn that the yipping sound means "stop" the way that puppies do with their mothers. Ours ignores it too - same reason. 
- Ignoring DOES work, I promise, but it doesn't mean that you stand there while puppy rips into your legs!! Remember, the pup is either mid-play and doesn't realise that it is getting too rough, or is trying to entice you to play - watch puppies with other dogs, they often try to bite the legs to get them to engage. So ignoring the dog but letting it continue to bite isn't going to work - he's just going to keep trying to say "play with me!" by chewing on you. 
- The ignoring method that has been working with us involves keeping a leash on her (luckily, our issue basically only happens on walks, so she is already leashed) or being somewhere that you can get away without having to grapple with her. When he bites, say "ouch" or something in a hurt tone -we usually use "hey" (don't yell - they can see it as barking back at them, and get even more excited!) and then use the leash to put him into a sit. Turn away and ignore him (no eye contact!!) and use the leash to keep him in one spot. If you are inside, rather than using the leash, you can leave the room, go to the other side of a baby gate, or pull your legs up on the couch - then again, ignore him. The idea is that being forced to be still also forces the puppy to calm down a little, while at the same time, you are removing all attention - puppies love attention, so taking it away is a good non-physical negative reinforcement. It is also fairly easy, even though you may have to hold a short leash out from your body once or twice with a whirling dervish of a puppy on the end of it! It's also easier than trying to pick him up to go into a time-out in the pen. For the record, I don't think that he is struggling to bite when you pick him up because he "knows he's in trouble". I think that he is trying to play with you, and then he gets a big whallop of attention in the form of physical contact, and thinks "yay - we are playing now" and goes nuts thinking that this means you have accepted his toothy invitation to playtime! Especially when you think about how you react when you are trying to scoop up a lump of wiggling, biting, manic puppy - you are probably moving your head to keep it safe, making noises, struggling to keep him still....now look at how dogs play - what do you see? Yup - movement, head whipping back and forth, little noises, lots of body contact. He doesn't know he is going in the pen and is in trouble - he thinks you are playing!!

This technique is really helping with our girl - she is far better at not nipping at all, and when she does, she is much faster to calm down, because she has figured out that the faster she calms down, the faster we can start the walk up again.


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## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

Of course I had a choice. But unlike some people I can't afford to fly across the country. I also didn't want to drive more than 6 hours with a puppy (I felt like it was a long time for him to be in the car even with plenty of bathroom breaks). I admit as a 1st time puppy owner (hence why this is posted here) I didn't know that 6 weeks was too early. I'll know better in the future, but I can't go back in time and fix it. This breeder was not a puppy mill and aside from the 6 wk thing is fine.

Now, thank you for your suggestions. I should have mentioned that sometimes we play with him in his ex-pen so that when he bites we can say ouch and leave the pen to ignore. Sometimes this seems to work and other times he'll bite again as soon as we re-enter the pen.

We will keep trying the ignoring/time out method and hopefully we'll see results soon.

As I said, when he sees that I have treats and the clicker he's a little angel. I have gotten to where I can pet him anywhere and even rub his chest with my foot and he won't bite because he's focused on the treat. We just need to transfer that behavior over to full time. I just don't have enough experience to know how yet.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Do you know any well socialized adult dogs that could come play?
All the above advice is great for teaching the dog not to bite you, but there is nothing like a well mannered adult dog for teaching good doggie manners AND teaching a soft mouth. He's missed some important development time with the litter but he can still play a little catch up. 

Otherwise, just stay very consistent in training and have patience.


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## ManyRoses (May 28, 2012)

DextertheAiredale said:


> Now, thank you for your suggestions. I should have mentioned that sometimes we play with him in his ex-pen so that when he bites we can say ouch and leave the pen to ignore. Sometimes this seems to work and other times he'll bite again as soon as we re-enter the pen.


That will happen in the beginning - sometimes he will just be SO excited, that even after you have left him to calm down, he'll get riled right up again! Be patient, and if he bites again, remove yourself from the pen. If he doesn't bite, go back to playing. It will take time, but eventually, he will learn that bite = playtime over, rather than bite = play. And pay attention to body language. usually you can tell when he has calmed down a bit - maybe the ears will soften a little, rather than standing straight up, you may see his muscles relax, or he may go from a full-attention sit into a lying down position. It'll give you a good idea of when he has started to calm down and is ready to go back to playtime.


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## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

We have some friends with a well behaved Pitbull and Dachsund. We want to let our puppy meet them as soon as he gets his next puppy shot.

Thanks to everyone for the tips. Sounds like we just need to be patient and consistent. Hopefully I can give an update in the near future with very good news


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

DextertheAiredale said:


> We have some friends with a well behaved Pitbull and Dachsund. We want to let our puppy meet them as soon as he gets his next puppy shot.
> 
> Thanks to everyone for the tips. Sounds like we just need to be patient and consistent. Hopefully I can give an update in the near future with very good news


Be sure both of those dogs have had actual experience with puppies before.
Puppies are a lot like children, and just because a dog is okay with adults doesn't mean he's fine with children, remember that.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

i personally wouldnt just go and put it with adults that have not been around pups. you have to be sure the adults will correct behavior, but the thing is some correct with too much force. this creates fear and aggression issues in pups if they are roughed up by adult dogs all the time. or there is also the fear of your pup being hurt.
are there any dog daycares or trainers around you? many of them offer puppy socialization for cheap or, in the case of my facility, free. this will be a really good place to take your pup. they will be exposed to pups their age so they will learn from them about how hard they can and cant bite during play, and it actually helps lessen the play biting with humans as well. they also will be exposed to new people all the time and a new place. socialization is key with pups!


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

With my pups, who insist on mauling my legs with every step, I have a distractor they can't resist. An old milk jug with rocks and a hay string attached. As soon as the biting begins (5 pups at the moment) I shake the jug and toss it and they attack it! 

They do learn the yard way with the grown dogs, as mals will push any limit lol. Airedales can be tough too!


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

we had a pair of airedale siblings do puppy party and then daycare... reffered to as "the airedale twins". (i do that with all litter mates at work) anywho one was very headstrong, typical airedale... the other was extremely shy and reserved and scared of everything.


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## Cotonlove (Jan 29, 2012)

Just a little idea...I too am a first time puppy owner...we were lucky to find our pup 2 hours away. She was 8 weeks old and still a little nipper so I wish I could have left her there for another couple weeks. The best advice I got about all that nipping and chewing was to just wait and things would turn around and they have!!! She lost all those little needle teeth and the puppy class we went to was helpful. I told the trainer that no matter how much I yelped that pup would just nip me more. She said can the neighbors hear you when you yelp ouch????!!!! Well all it took was a couple blood curdling yelps from me and she pretty much stopped.I am surprised the neighbors didn't call the police. She still mouths us a lot but has developed a very soft mouth. She understands she can play rougher with "dad" and less so with "mom". We have had her for 6 months now and her behavior has greatly improved. Hang in there!


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

DextertheAiredale said:


> Any suggestions?


I don't think that you realize what you have there. An Airedale is a terrier - and quite a large one. Breedwise, they are generally feisty and "sharp" as adults. You have to start socializing him now because as they get older, they can become difficult. 

Start your NILIF now - not tomorrow, but today. Don't be so concerned about teaching "positions" or tricks at this point - concentrate and work on the socialization. A 'sit' is nice for NILIF, but don't worry about anything else for now. 

Start your handling training NOW. This is going to be a challenge because your pup was removed from the litter way, way too early, and obviously, your breeder did not do his part to get that started. But you can do it. Your pup MUST learn to be handled and to have close contact without reacting. 

Start your bite_ inhibition _training NOW - not tomorrow but today. This is also going to be a challenge because your pup was removed so early. But you can do it with patience and perserverence. It would be very advantageous to give your pup some regular play time with a cooperative - and even tempered - 'doggy friend' to help with the bite inhibition.

Start your bite _control_ training NOW. You are relying entirely too much on your verbal corrections and not enough on body language and facial expression. Some time back, I posted on how to do this. If you are interested, shoot me a PM, and I'll look it up and send you a copy.

Yes, because of the lack of bite inhibition that your pup should have learned in the litter, you MAY lose the bite behavior with respect to people while you are teaching bite control . But right now, with your pup being in unkown status with respect to bite inhibition, I'd have to go that route. 

Don't worry about that for now. If later on, you decide you want to get into Schutzhund or similar sports - and Airedales generally do VERY well at those - you CAN bring the bite behavior back under controlled conditions. And having worked on the bite inhibition, you'll be in very good shape with your protection work.

And don't forget the house traing and crate training. Very important to get those done now.


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## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

Thank you everyone for the suggestions. We have been socializing him with friends and family. But that's been more about training the people than the dog. We've been trying to make sure people don't try to play tug or wrestle with him a lot. He's done fairly well around new people but occasionally he does get too excited and bite too hard forcing a time out.

I've already been calling around and talking to our vet about puppy socialization classes. We're going to do that ASAP. My friends Pitbull I know is good with puppies because he was grown when they got their Dachsund puppy.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

I don't find tug to be a bad thing, in fact for a dog that needs to mouth and kill, it's ideal. But under YOUR rules. Use things like a ball on a rope, stuffy on a rope etc... (I just get light rope, make a loop on one end, loop the rope through and put the stuffy in, pull tight and instant tug toy). The idea being that there is a tug item and the rope is off limits. Have a few. Play tug, let him get it out of his system, but if he grabs the rope, drop the toy and get a new one, offer that to him, same rules. He may enjoy shaking and killing toys that look like rodents too. 

Wrestling is harder to manage and more likely to get him biting. To make it easier on him, I wouldn't allow strangers and guests to wrestle or play tug, but just be calm and pleasant with him. Have some stuffed frozen kongs or bones on hand for when guests do come, so he can be distracted too.

A well socialized adult will do a lot of puppy training for you too, well worth it.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I know you've tried the Bite Stops Here. Sometimes, it is more difficult with a terrier, but it sounds like you have some success, perhaps not sticking with it long enough. Read this and note the 3 days and the apology....

Some Tweaks to Bite Inhibition (to get him to stop biting when he wants to play):
1. When the pup bites, then yelp. It should sound about like what the pup does when you step on its paw... don't step on his paw for a sample . When you yelp, the pup should startle briefly and stop nipping. Praise and pet. He'll bite.
2. When he bites the second time, Yelp. When he stops, praise and pet. He'll nip again, although it may be a little gentler. ...
3. When he bites a third time, Yelp (see a pattern?). But this time, turn your back for 15 - 30 secs. If he comes around and play bows or barks, then that is an apology. This is important. Accept it, praise and pet... and cringe in expectation of the next nip...
4. When he bites the 4th time, Yelp, then leave the area, placing him in a 2 min. time-out. It is better if you can leave, rather than moving him. Then, return and interact. (He's still hungry...)
5. When he nips the fifth time, yelp, and leave the area, stopping interaction for now.

Pups need to sleep over night in order to learn their lessons. So, keep doing this for 3 days. By the third day, you should notice signficant Bite Inhibition. He may still nip, but it will be softer and he won't draw blood. Keep up the training and make sure that everyone yelps.... Very powerful method.

If you learn the technique, then you can apply the "yelp" to other circumstances, also. I believe that "yelp" is "Please don't do that, I don't like it." in dog communication. I currently use the yelp when my dog plays tug, then runs with the toy, when he fetches and keeps it out of reach or when he takes a treat too quickly....


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

thats more generous than me. i have a "3 strike" rule when it comes to it, not 5. but thats just me.


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## Tofu_pup (Dec 8, 2008)

Jean Donaldson has great guidelines for playing tug in The Culture Clash.


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## Mheath0429 (Sep 4, 2011)

i am surprised no one asked this yet, but how much exercise is your pup getting? Airedales are very high energy and if that energy gets pent up it can lead to rowdiness. He is young, but that doesn't mean he shouldnt be walked and exercised. No repetitive running of course, but exercise is good. 

(I have huskies, including a 5 month old Husky and without walks, he wouldn't sleep when he was little )


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## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

He's getting a good amount of exercise but we were advised not to take him ok walks until he gets his next puppy shot which is in 3 days. We will be walking him after that. But we have a fenced in backyard and we take him out for play time a few times a day and just let him run and explore.

@hanksimon, I started trying the "yelp" then priase method you outlined. I think he is immune to yelps. I'm making a dang good puppy noise as loud as I possibly can. I'm going hourse and when I do it he bites harder and growls. I did have a little success with "eh eh". But he soon figured it out and no I can't find any noise to make him stop on his own. So I have to eventually pull away out of self-preservation.

It's frustrating because when "eh eh" was working, he seemed to be catching on and his mouthing got softer for a bit. I'll keep trying for a few more days.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

The yelp doesn't always work. With my breed in general a loud yelp triggers prey response, and all the pups will attack. This is one reason I have to separate pups. 

Speaking of, one of the male puppies is showing dog aggression, at nine weeks. His mother backs down from.him, though the other adults really put him in his place. He is at his new home, but comes back to socialize and for play. The owner told me he was going after the adult dogs at his two training sessions. The dogs there are not the type to let correct a puppy. So we did some safe work with trusted adults. It's going to be an ongoing management issue for probably the first 6 months. 

He will also show some people aggression when he gets fired up. To the point of dropping the tug and redirecting onto an arm, with intense growling and biting. So yes young pups can have aggression. If managed now, it should be able to be corrected. Though I wouldn't say it will ever be cured, and something to always be watched for, and on top of.


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## Crazy Daisy (Apr 16, 2012)

Our puppy (first) took quite a while to quit biting, she is 6 months now but still nips a little at my oldest child(but very gently),or at the back of my knees when we go runnning( alot less now than a few weeks ago!). We did all the things listed here on DF, and in some great books, and just kept at it. Around 4-5 months it seemed to start to click, but there were some tough days in there! Those puppy teeth are sharp! So keep on trying, do your best and be consistent,it will get better. Perhaps you can find something the dog likes to chew on or carry in his mouth to help a little.Also teaching a command that doesn't allow the pup to bite you, like having them sit or lay down before getting to you can help. a lot of it is training and management for a little while longer. good luck!


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## DextertheAiredale (Jun 15, 2012)

Well, we found a good positive reinforcement puppy training/socialization class that we'll be attending this saturday. He got his 2nd puppy shot 2 days ago and so we've been going on walks in the morning and late afternoon. I still haven't seen a noticeable improvement in the frequency or strength of his biting. We continue to give him time outs when he gets uncontrollably rough.

BUT, the good news is that we've been using the "sit" command before literally everything. Sit before we go outside, sit before food, sit before he gets a toy, sit before we play tug with him. We've been using it so much that many times, even when he's getting a little out of control, we can say "sit!" and he'll stop. The bad thing is that we don't always have a reward and verbal praise isn't high up on Dexter's reward list. So I think he decides his reward is getting to start biting at us again.

This is a good sign right? The fact that he will stop biting on occasion to sit. We're just trying to look for a silver lining here.

Keeping my fingers crossed that these new puppy classes we start tomorrow will be the beginning of the end of his wild biting sprees.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

This is a great sign, keep it up. You don't have to reward every time for compliance, although you do want to reward on occasion to keep things interesting (variable reinforcement, like a slot machine). My philosophy (from Ian Dunbar) is that you need to provide some reward or praise during intial training, so that the pup understand when he's doing something right. Then, you can choose to reward only improving behavior, again, letting the pup know that he has to raise the bar. But once the pup knows the cue and behavior, continuous rewards can be counter productive (except maybe for recalls???), because then the pup will expect a reward every single time he does something that you ask. (I cue my dog to sit many times a day... and the poor creature doesn't even get acknowledged...much less rewarded 

BTW, The Bite Stops Here doesn't need a Yelp. You can also say Ouch! or Oops, etc. providing a verbal mark that startles the pup a little (you no longer suffer the nipping in silence), and that indicates the undesired behavior when you increasingly withdraw attention. But, it can take 3 - 5 days before the pup even begins to understand to starts to reduce pressure. ... But, Terriers sometimes increase prey drive and nipping with the wrong sound....


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