# selling pupies is wrong



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

who else thinks selling pups for mony is wrong cuz well the new owner might of just bought the pup for huntin or just to have someont or something to push around
and its not nice either


----------



## Beagle Lover (Nov 22, 2006)

i think ur right selling pupies for money is wrong


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

because it is theres no point in it


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

what are you supposed to sell them for?....peanuts?.....

_BREEDING_ dogs for money is wrong, but giving pups away are alot of times just signing their death warrant (labs for research are always looking for that inexpensive/free dog/pup).....


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

Actually, I think you MIGHT have a point because selling puppys for money IS wrong, but some might just sell them so that they won't have alot of dogs to take care of. But i agree anyways.


----------



## Ibizan (Nov 17, 2006)

Uhm...Do you expect us breeders not to be able to take care of the dogs we breed? Are you crazy in the head? If breeders don't sell the puppies for a certain amount of money, there will be no money to pay for the cost of breeding, or taking care of the dogs. So how is this wrong?

Breeders who do not put money back into their dogs are wrong. They keep the money for their own pocket lining. That is just a BYB, or a puppymill.

And what do you mean the person could use the dog for hunting? I sell my puppies for hunting purposes, because it's what the breed was BRED to do. My dogs are NOT happy just being mere pets, they want to do their job, and I have no right to keep them from doing that. I also have no right to sell their offspring to any home who would not allow their new dog to someday strive for what it was bred to do if it has the drive and energy needed.


----------



## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Breeding dogs just for the sole purpose of gaining money is wrong. 

In other words....Back Yard Breeders and Puppy Mills are WRONG....etical responsible reputable breeds are GOOD.

And I don't think that hunting with our dogs is wrong anymore than having your Border Collie herd sheep is wrong. If that is what a dog was bred to do, go for it! Some people who hunt with their dogs and just have them for that soul purpose (keeping them kenneled outside 24/7, only taking them out to hunt with...sorta like Judd out of the Shiloh books) is wrong, but that doesn't mean hunting is wrong. It just means irresponsible ownership is wrong.


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

Hi, I dont' really know why I'm getting in to this but here it goes anyway. Why would you think that someone shouldn't be allowed to make a living doing something the love and care about. I don't know to many good breeders who are getting rich selling their dogs, but why shouldn't they make some money. Not just cover expenses, but profit. There is alot of time and effort that goes into good breeding. Would you devote lots of your time, energy and money into something and not expect some compensation. I don't think so. I know by the post and first responses that kids posted this, but let me say one day you will want a job. I only hope it is something you love the way reputable breeders love their dogs and breed.


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

drfong said:


> Hi, I dont' really know why I'm getting in to this but here it goes anyway. Why would you think that someone shouldn't be allowed to make a living doing something the love and care about. I don't know to many good breeders who are getting rich selling their dogs, but why shouldn't they make some money. Not just cover expenses, but profit. There is alot of time and effort that goes into good breeding. Would you devote lots of your time, energy and money into something and not expect some compensation. I don't think so. I know by the post and first responses that kids posted this, but let me say one day you will want a job. I only hope it is something you love the way reputable breeders love their dogs and breed.


 O.....k. Actually, yeah, you have point. People might need the money to pay bills, don't you think Buddy?


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

no i dont i still think that my point is better but thats just me other people might have diferent answers to that but my point is my point


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

*True*



Buddy said:


> no i dont i still think that my point is better but thats just me other people might have diferent answers to that but my point is my point


True. Many peoples have there opinion.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

it is true some people say his and some say that


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

Buddy, where did you get your dog?


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

witch one Buddy or Flo? buddy is in the avatar


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

Buddy said:


> witch one Buddy or Flo? buddy is in the avatar


I think she means Buddy.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

from a persons house


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

Ok, you have 2 dogs, buddy and flo. Where did they come from. I don't mean from a house but where they from a breeder or just someone who let their dog get pregnant and had to get rid of the puppies?


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

Buddy #2 Flo nieghter


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

> Buddy #2 Flo nieghter


I have no idea what this means. 
I guess I'll bail out of this as it is probably pointless. Happy Thanksgiving


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

lol thanks giving over wher i live but still Happy Thanksgiving


----------



## Ibizan (Nov 17, 2006)

Buddy, without money, people wouldn't have dogs. Many people never would have acquired dogs. You need to do a lot of research into the dog world, and into human ethics, before stating the things you said in your original post.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i think these kids need to go to bed......and Buddy, you got your dog from someone who's dog just got caught by who knows what it seems and now you are throwing out more pups by letting Buddy be a dad to who knows what female.....don't you realize how many dogs get killed each day b/c of this stupidity?


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

kids, go read the post i put on earlier "THE BREEDING ISSUE (HIS NAME IS SAM) a few post down from here......maybe it'll open your eyes to a major problem in this world......


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

umm first of all the pups are being born from my bros friends golden retriever and if it were my choice i wouldnt sell a single last one!!! so i care more about dogs than probly anyone else on this site ok


----------



## Ibizan (Nov 17, 2006)

Buddy, if you cared more, you'd have had your dog neutered.

Like I said, do your research before you spill anything.


----------



## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

I am not a breeder, but I'm going to make a few points here.

1. People tend to not appreciate things they get for free. A free pup is very likely to end up in a bad situation such as in a lab or as bait for training fighting dogs.

2. It's a good thing when a dog is able to do what it was bred for (with some exceptions, such as dog fighting or bull baiting, of course).

3. Proper breeding costs money. There are stud fees, vet care, health clearances, food for the bitch, and the pups once weaned. There are also show and/or trial fees to prove the bitch is worthy of being bred.

4. Even Shelters and rescue groups charge for the pups and dogs they rehome. This is partly because they are aware of the dangers of giving animals away and partly because they have to recover at least a portion of their costs in order to keep doing what they're doing.

5. If you can't afford to pay something for a pup, how will you be able to pay for it's ongoing upkeep, including, vet bills, food and possibly professional training?


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 14, 2006)

I think you might be on to something...free puppies...free pet supplies...free groceries...free house...free electricity...free car...free gas...free medical care...
I'm in! You guys work out the details and then let me know where to sign up!


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hey, Sawyer, i'm right behind you......


----------



## Booga (Nov 22, 2006)

I know everyone has different opinions, and I don't hold anything against others who want to do that. Personally, I won't do it. Some people thought I was absolutely insane because the Siberian Husky I adopted is purebred with papers and I had him neutered.


----------



## Ibizan (Nov 17, 2006)

Booga, I dont think you're insane at all!!


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

lol but he isnt insane


----------



## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Hrmmm...
Buddy, I think you are smart, but also very young. You will change your mind about a million times about a million things as you get older. 

Its all good and well to say that selling puppies is wrong; however, its a way of life for some people. I think that you are upset because you don't want to see the puppies go. Understandable! They're very easy to get attached to! They're cute, cuddly, innocent, and most of all adorable! 

Really though, those puppies will grow up quickly to become large dogs (Goldens, right?) It will be difficult enough to care for ONE puppy (trust me, I know), but to care for an entire large litter for their whole lives? Wow...can you imagine walking every single dog every day? How much food it would cost for one family to feed nine full grown dogs? Plus, the vet bills would be outrageous. 

That is why only people who REALLY love and know alot about dogs should breed dogs. These are the kinds of people who can devote their whole lives to bettering a paricular breed of dog. Can you imagine that? These are called "hobby breeders." They (probably more then anyone else) love their breed, and know what questions to ask potential puppy buyers. 

Plus, most people don't really know enough about dogs to breed them. That is why pet dogs (dogs that are not shown, or dogs that do not do field work) should be spayed and neutered. 

Spaying your pet will make them live longer, and I don't know ANYONE who doesn't want their pet to live longer, right? 

Well, take care and good luck with the litter.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

lol no i wont


----------



## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

*Troll?*

Hrmmm...


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

when i say something i mean it


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

Buddy, you may mean it but half of what you say isn't even understandable. Is your brother selling puppies and you think that is wrong?


----------



## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

Just because you buy a dog from a breeder that has papers, it doesn't mean JACK about the actual "purity" of the breed dog you purchased, or about the breeder...

Good breeders do charge money..and there's nothing wrong with that...they need to pay the expenses of having a litter in the first place....and it shouldn't concern anybody here anyways, as most of us wouldn't even qualify for a puppy that comes from a truely reputable, responsible breeder...they have health testing certificates/guarantees, detailed, long, contracts...house checkups...neuter policies...some even have show policies..if you're not going to show or have your dog do what it was originally bred for, then don't even bother showing up to look at the litter...good breeders have people on waiting lists for YEARS..not just two or three years...five or six!

Good breeders are rare..VERY rare...they breed for the BETTERMENT of the breed...not vice versa...if they charge money...its a good thing..it prevents some shmuck from picking up a free dog...I used to work in a shelter that was extremely irresponsible..I don't work there anymore for the reason that they had days where they would give away free dogs and cats....the amount of times those animals ended up in cruelty/neglect situations was incredible...people got them for free...so they thought that the rest of the animals life was going to be free...didn't expect to pay for medical care, proper good food, training, etc....we actually had homeless people coming into the shelter and leaving with cats...can you believe that? Don't you think that if there was a price to pay for these animals, it wouldn't filter and screen out these types of people? OF course it would..so don't sit there and tell me that good breeders are evil because they charge money for their pups.

see my point?


----------



## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

skelaki said:


> I am not a breeder, but I'm going to make a few points here.
> 
> 1. People tend to not appreciate things they get for free. A free pup is very likely to end up in a bad situation such as in a lab or as bait for training fighting dogs.
> 
> ...


ITA- Couldn't have said it better myself


----------



## pupskersandhutch (Nov 20, 2006)

Buddy, you are a smart individual and that's cool you think that selling your pups is wrong I thought the same way when my cat would have kitttens. When you get older unfortunatley you WILL change just like the seasons of weather!. But I agree that breeders should not just sell their dogs to just ANYONE!!!! to make money that is wrong!!! . Also I think that anyone who is not a licensed breeder should have their dog fixed I belive that it should be a law. Also I think that people should have a license to own a dog .It's like owning a car and selling a car you have to got through certain procedures I belive should be the same way for dogs/cats etc:


----------



## dixie (Nov 23, 2006)

they do have to sell them


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

well i half agree with pupsker but the one part of ill change my mind probly wont happen the rest about selling them to people that u know will take good care of dogs ill agree with that


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

Hi Buddy!!!

_Animals Are Not Ours To Wear_
www.furisdead.com


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

hi ilovemychihuahua


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

*Haha*



Buddy said:


> hi ilovemychihuahua


Please, call me Denise. Hi!

_Animals Are Not Ours To Wear _
www.furisdead.com


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

ok hi Denise


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

*Hehe*



Buddy said:


> ok hi Denise


Hi Buddy, oops, Jacob.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

i dont care what u call me or maybe even call me yoda or yodaman or even yodaman2 im used to bein called that from a game called conquer


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

That's just weird. I kid, I kid. (*Kid*ing.)


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

lol now thats funny


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

*hehe*



Buddy said:


> lol now thats funny


That is funny. Cause i'm cool for school. Yeah.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

*who wants to see me*

if u want to see me just dont look derectly at the pic im not someone u should star at u might turn to stone  so be carful


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

*Um...*



Buddy said:


> if u want to see me just dont look derectly at the pic im not someone u should star at u might turn to stone  so be carful


Wheres the picture?


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

i dont know it wont work


----------



## nicole84 (Nov 28, 2006)

I belive in selling puppies and breeding if you are breeding to improve the breed that you have but to breed just to make money i highly disagree with I belive that all backyard breeders and puppymills should be shut down.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh wow, this thread went downhill... or it might've started there. 

I agree with people who have said everything about responsible breederws, but somehow I feel if I were to elaborate it'd be a moot point.


----------



## rockhard_mastiffs (Nov 30, 2006)

hi everyone,
Im a breeder, a *registered* breeder. I own 10 breeding bitches and 4 studs (all of whom are I consider members of my family) if it wasnt for the money that is paid for my puppies i wouldn't be able to do what i do, my dream job. I work 7 days a week and during my high puppy period sometimes up to 24 hours a day. Some people breed for money and some breed for quality (i have heard of people breeding for quality by having a litter of puppies keeping the two of best quality and putting the rest down  ) i breed excellent quality dogs but am also able to bring in an ok wage. There is such thing as and equal medium. I see it in a way that a person who pays $1,200 to $1,500AU for one of my puppies is more likely to look after them well than if I gave my puppies away. Paying for a pet teaches responsability and makes the person realise that not everything with an animal is free.


----------



## Sawyer (Nov 14, 2006)

*In Buddy's defense...*

Okay - this has gone "downhill"
May I type, in Buddy's defense, and I suppose in my earlier sarcastic reply's defense, that I'm a firm believer that no one loves a dog quite like a child. Children and dogs see the world in such a unique and wonderful way. Their view is limited and that is why, in part, we love them so much. I think Buddy hasn't done well in expressing himself fairly but his heart is in the right place. I have children, and I would hate for anyone to be rude to them simply because they acted like children. For that reason, Buddy, I apologize for my earlier response. I do, however, hope you have read and taken to heart the posts people have taken the time to write. Good luck to you and your pups. 

BTW - please don't post your pic. You're too young to have your pic on the net!!


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

omg everyone always calls me a child why does everyone call me a child just cuz im 11


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

Buddy, because 11 is a child. Don't feel bad about it. It goes away all too soon.


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

drfong said:


> Hi, I dont' really know why I'm getting in to this but here it goes anyway. Why would you think that someone shouldn't be allowed to make a living doing something the love and care about. I don't know to many good breeders who are getting rich selling their dogs, but why shouldn't they make some money. Not just cover expenses, but profit. There is alot of time and effort that goes into good breeding. Would you devote lots of your time, energy and money into something and not expect some compensation. I don't think so. I know by the post and first responses that kids posted this, but let me say one day you will want a job. I only hope it is something you love the way reputable breeders love their dogs and breed.


Making a living from breeding dogs is unethical. When the profit motive is present, the dogs lose. When the profit motive is present, shortcuts will be made. Responsible breeding, like responsible rescue, incurs so many expenses that profit is unlikely, if not downright impossible. I cringe at the thought that anyone would encourage anyone else to breed as a way to make a living.


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> Making a living from breeding dogs is unethical. When the profit motive is present, the dogs lose. When the profit motive is present, shortcuts will be made. Responsible breeding, like responsible rescue, incurs so many expenses that profit is unlikely, if not downright impossible. I cringe at the thought that anyone would encourage anyone else to breed as a way to make a living.



I am not going to speek for breeding dogs as I do not at this time breed dogs. I do have freinds who do and believe me they make a nice living doing it. No they do not take short cuts at all. Each of their dogs are proven in the show ring (Champions) they are well taken care of all have everything needed and more. Each breeding is very thought out.

I too breed but not dogs. I breed horses and I too make a good liveing doing it. To make money breeding you CAN NOT TAKE short cuts it just does not work. The ones who take the short cuts are the ones who are not getting top $$ for their animals and not makeing a living. The animals suffer b/c they are low end animals. They sell for less then what it cost to produce the animal. They end up in places thay should not be b/c they are cheep. People can not take care of them and they end up in a rescue or worse. The animal can not do what they are bred to do b/c they are not quality animals. Bad conformation bad temperments and so on.

now there are always exceptions to every rule but if you look at the poeple who are producing top bred animals they are also ones how make good money doing it.

Heidi


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> I am not going to speek for breeding dogs as I do not at this time breed dogs. I do have freinds who do and believe me they make a nice living doing it. No they do not take short cuts at all. Each of their dogs are proven in the show ring (Champions) they are well taken care of all have everything needed and more. Each breeding is very thought out.
> 
> I too breed but not dogs. I breed horses and I too make a good liveing doing it. To make money breeding you CAN NOT TAKE short cuts it just does not work. The ones who take the short cuts are the ones who are not getting top $$ for their animals and not makeing a living. The animals suffer b/c they are low end animals. They sell for less then what it cost to produce the animal. They end up in places thay should not be b/c they are cheep. People can not take care of them and they end up in a rescue or worse. The animal can not do what they are bred to do b/c they are not quality animals. Bad conformation bad temperments and so on.
> 
> ...


I know nothing of the horse world, so I defer on that, but I question profit being made in the dog world if everything is being done right. You cite that they are champions and have everything they need, but what does that mean? Does it include all the available testing for both dam and sire? Does it include keeping the puppies long enough to give them the opportunity to learn to be dogs from their mother, as well as good socialization by the breeder (12-16 weeks)? Does it include being available for those pups for the rest of their lives, and doing everything possible to make sure the dogs come back to the breeder, and not end up in the pound? Are they involved with rescue so they know how to rehome adult dogs, and not just dump them on rescue and expect someone else to clean up after them? Do they carefully screen their puppys' potential new family, including doing home checks, to make sure that those pups are going to be well taken care of and safe? Do they follow-up to make sure that the dog is being properly trained and vetted? Or do they, like most breeders, just hand the dog over to the first person with cash, and be glad they have one less to deal with? Also, do they keep their breeding dogs for life, as part of the family, or do they dump them on rescue as soon as a better breeding dog comes along? 

If done right, there is no profit, and certainly not enough to make a living from. If they're making a living from it, something's not being done right.

By the way, about your horses - both for those you own, and those you have sold - when they can no longer be used for what they were bred for, do they go to slaughter?


----------



## APBTgal (Dec 10, 2006)

*Buddy!lol*

You might want to fix your signature.
"If you support giving a great live to a dogs, Put this into your signiture."
It should read,
"If you support giving a great life to the dogs, Put this into your signature."
Because 1) the word is liFe not liVe.
2) "a" is singular "dogs" is plural, and they have to match.
You either need to change "a" to "the" or "dogS" to "dog".
3) and lastly, the word is spelled "signature" not "signiture".


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

When I say champions I mean champions in AKC UKC and CKC. They all are screaned and are sold mostly to show homes. She does take the dogs back if needed but that is rearly the case as they go to good homes. These are not $400-$500 dogs so they do not go to people who just want a pet. She does keep the older dogs unless she finds them homes with people who are looking for an older dog. She has an older couple who wanted a puppy but when she talked to them about it she found out that they really did not want to do the puppy training so she sold them for a very reasonable price one of her retiered dogs. The dog was fixed (her expence) what fully trained and was a good dog. She would have kept it but this was a good home. Her pups have are veted and have their tales done befor they are even 2-3 days old. They are veted again at 6-8 weeks and start going to their new home after that depending one how the pup is doing and where it is going.

As for my horses. Some I keep some I sell some. I have a 26 yo broodmare who I got at the age of 21. she has impecable breeding and I got 2 foals out of her and now she is just hanging in my pasture being an old fart. She gets the best of everything. From feed to supliments she even gets injections to keep her from getting arthritic and stiff joints. Both my mares and stallions are fully trained and shown. They are proven before they are ever bred. Some of my mares are bred to my stallions some are bred to outside stallions depending on the mare. Outside stud fees average about $5K. By the time the foal hits the ground it is anouther year of keeping the mare. Then about 3-4 months befor they are weaned. Since I breed and show reiners they are usually long yearlings befor they are sold. Takes 2 years to train a reiner then showing them is not cheep. However done correctly there is money to be made. I have currently 6 horses not one of them have cost me a penny out of my pocket in the past 11 years. One mare I have has been at the trainers for 2 1/2 years and cost me a penny. 

If done correcly you can make money on animals. Think about it. If you get even 5 pups/litter which is about normal for a small/mid size breed. Larger breeds have more. You get $1000-$1200 on limited regisitration more for full reg for show dogs. That is on average $5000+ a litter. Now average vet cost even if it is say $1000 which for me would be a very very injured animal would still leave you $4000. Cost of certifying an animal is about for hips and elbows is about $450. About anouther $200-$400 for hart and eyes. So even if you take that out of the breeding cost you still will have $2000 left. Cost of raising puppy will not cost you that for even 3 months of care. The certifiying dose not have to be done every year so that will not be a constant and should be done no matter what. Even though I really do not believe that all of the things tested for is genetic. Just make people feel better.

I am a firm beleiver that if you breed an animal and do not make a profit doing it then STOP. The quality is not there or you are doing something wrong. I see it all the time with horses and dogs too. People say they breed for the love of the animal and the betterment of the breed. If you can not make even your cost back then you are not bettering anything. Good quality animals are worth more then what it cost to produce them. If they are not then you really need to look at what you are doing.

Heidi


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

well thats what i was soposed to put so i put it


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

*.....*



APBTgal said:


> You might want to fix your signature.
> "If you support giving a great live to a dogs, Put this into your signiture."
> It should read,
> "If you support giving a great life to the dogs, Put this into your signature."
> ...


....hey!!! You know what, you're right.


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

posted by Dogadvocate:


> Making a living from breeding dogs is unethical. When the profit motive is present, the dogs lose. When the profit motive is present, shortcuts will be made. Responsible breeding, like responsible rescue, incurs so many expenses that profit is unlikely, if not downright impossible. I cringe at the thought that anyone would encourage anyone else to breed as a way to make a living


I don't understand why you feel it is unethical. It may be impractical, but if someone is doing everything right and can sell their pups for enough to make a profit, it is not unethical. No mater what one does for a living, they can be ethical or unethical. Sometimes the unethical make more money, for a while, but usually end up out of buisness because they get a bad rep. Honest, ethical people in any field will eventually prosper because they will have a great reputation. To make lots of money and do it ethically, you would have to have a large operation because the margin will be much less on well breed pups. So I agree that someone who is making a lot of money is probably not a ethical breeder because they are putting out lots of dogs cheep, ie puppy mill. But I know the breeders I got my dogs from make a profit but it is suplement income, not their only job. They still made some money and I'm glad they did. If you spend alot of time and money to produce a product and you can't make any money, you either need to quit or raise your price.


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

*huh?*



Buddy said:


> well thats what i was soposed to put so i put it


Put what? What i miss?


----------



## APBTgal (Dec 10, 2006)

I don't under stand it either.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

never mind ill change it and i didnt write a thing i only took what someone else wrote


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

drfong said:


> posted by Dogadvocate:
> 
> I don't understand why you feel it is unethical. It may be impractical, but if someone is doing everything right and can sell their pups for enough to make a profit, it is not unethical. No mater what one does for a living, they can be ethical or unethical. Sometimes the unethical make more money, for a while, but usually end up out of buisness because they get a bad rep. Honest, ethical people in any field will eventually prosper because they will have a great reputation. To make lots of money and do it ethically, you would have to have a large operation because the margin will be much less on well breed pups. So I agree that someone who is making a lot of money is probably not a ethical breeder because they are putting out lots of dogs cheep, ie puppy mill. But I know the breeders I got my dogs from make a profit but it is suplement income, not their only job. They still made some money and I'm glad they did. If you spend alot of time and money to produce a product and you can't make any money, you either need to quit or raise your price.


If not mistaken, I believe the comment was about making a living through the profit of breeding, and that's what I think is impossible if the breeding is being done responsibly and ethically. I equate it with rescue. Ethical rescuers do not make profits, even those that ask higher fees or donations, because the expenses far outweigh the income. And if the expenses are minimal, then they aren't giving the dog what it needs. Yes, there are times when a dog can come into rescue that is already altered, already has it's shots, has had routine dental, is trained, and can virtually go right into a new home, and not require expensive rehab, but the next dog to come in is likely to cost 5 times as much, negating any seeming profit that was made.

In breeding, the corners that are cut are not proving the dog because the breeder relies on it's ancestors champion status, not doing routinee testing, having too many dogs in order to make a living and therefore being unable to give the proper attention to each including socialization, not being there for lifetime protection of the dogs bred and sold thereby risking shelters and rescue to have to pick up the load, and so much more.

From this website: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Flats/7244/costs.html

"Let's assume that you have a breed that averages 8 puppies per litter that sell for $500 each - ok, many smaller breeds never have this many puppies, but let's stick with this example. 

Let's look at the costs:


stud fee - usually equivalent to the cost of one pup 
neonatal deaths - average 25% per litter - ok so let's say you lose two pups here (this means that so far after the stud fee, we only really have 5 left that we can sell to make money from) 
vaccinations, worming, eye certifications - that adds up to another pup (of course, you can save money by ignoring these important steps) 
food - extra food for bitch, and then food for puppies until the age of 8 weeks - that's half a pup 
emergency vet vists to try and save the dying pup, or the emergency c-section on the mum - maybe both! - that's at least one pup, and more likely two. Let's say 1 and a half pups. 
Health checks on the bitch prior to whelping - checks for hd, annual eye certifications, thyroid checks, etc - that's another pup (but if you want to cut corners and ignore these very important checks you can save money here) 
Advertising the litter and answering numerous phone calls - that's half a pup 
Time off taken from work to whelp litter - that's at least one pup, more likely two, and in some cases, equivalent to the total selling price of whole litter. Let's say one and a half pups. 
Breeder support - for the life of the pup a good breeder will be there to take back those pups whose owners can no longer keep them. Also a good breeder will keep in regular contact with her puppy owners. Let's be really conservative here and say, that's the cost of just one pup. 
And you want to keep one pup for yourself, so you can't sell that one. "

So you figure raise the price on each pup? Ok, but then you better be offering something really special, and that costs more money to accomplish. Responsible, ethical breeders do not breed for profit, they breed to preserve and improve the breed.


----------



## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Agreed. 

My pup came from a litter that cost $2000, due to the fact that the dam had to have an emergency c-section, and could not immediately nurse because she was in intensive care for one night. One puppy was born dead, as it got stuck in Silly's womb. 

That $2000 doesn't even cover Silly getting her championship, the stud fee, the birthing supplies, and the special food and supplements the breeder gave her.


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> When I say champions I mean champions in AKC UKC and CKC. They all are screaned and are sold mostly to show homes. She does take the dogs back if needed but that is rearly the case as they go to good homes. These are not $400-$500 dogs so they do not go to people who just want a pet. She does keep the older dogs unless she finds them homes with people who are looking for an older dog. She has an older couple who wanted a puppy but when she talked to them about it she found out that they really did not want to do the puppy training so she sold them for a very reasonable price one of her retiered dogs. The dog was fixed (her expence) what fully trained and was a good dog. She would have kept it but this was a good home. Her pups have are veted and have their tales done befor they are even 2-3 days old. They are veted again at 6-8 weeks and start going to their new home after that depending one how the pup is doing and where it is going.
> 
> As for my horses. Some I keep some I sell some. I have a 26 yo broodmare who I got at the age of 21. she has impecable breeding and I got 2 foals out of her and now she is just hanging in my pasture being an old fart. She gets the best of everything. From feed to supliments she even gets injections to keep her from getting arthritic and stiff joints. Both my mares and stallions are fully trained and shown. They are proven before they are ever bred. Some of my mares are bred to my stallions some are bred to outside stallions depending on the mare. Outside stud fees average about $5K. By the time the foal hits the ground it is anouther year of keeping the mare. Then about 3-4 months befor they are weaned. Since I breed and show reiners they are usually long yearlings befor they are sold. Takes 2 years to train a reiner then showing them is not cheep. However done correctly there is money to be made. I have currently 6 horses not one of them have cost me a penny out of my pocket in the past 11 years. One mare I have has been at the trainers for 2 1/2 years and cost me a penny.
> 
> ...


Breeding dogs should not be a business, it's a hobby. Hobby breeders hope to cover their expenses. When it's a business, then you have to make decisions based on the $$$$$$. That's when the dogs lose, and that's unethical. Either your friends aren't jumping through all the hoops, or you don't have a clear picture of what they are doing. When you say that certifying doesn't have to be done every year, you are not including CERF and testing for von Willibrandts, etc. As for the cost of their pups, pet shop pups can cost the same amount - if you think that proves quality - it doesn't. I've heard of fools that will pay $25,000 for a puppy too, and that might show great business acumen by the breeder, but it's also a rip-off. Ethical breeding is not profitable, especially not enough to make a living.


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

We could argue back and forth and it wouldn't really get us anywhere. My only point is that if you earn any money over what the expenses are it is a business, not a hobby. Just ask the IRS. In my post I said it would probably not be possible for someone to breed correctly and it be their only income unless they can really get alot of money for their pups. I know some do.I wouldn't pay over $1000 for a dog, but many wouldn't pay the $600 I paid for Molly so I guess it's all relative. But if they can make money AND do it right, more power to them. It is not a matter of ethics to make a profit on animals. I guess we will just need to agree to disagree.


----------



## Annabellelee3 (Nov 12, 2006)

i totally agree with you selling puppies for cash is wrong because you dont know who they go to if you put them in the pet shop and i mean that they could treat dog like its a piece of trash and be mean and cruel to it and push it around and not feed it proply and also not give clean water just imagine that gross isnt it!. 
I love beagles pugs border collies dashchunds dobermans in fact i love every breed of dog because they are all cute and cuddly.


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

annabellelee3, I understand your point, but I think more people are likely to mistreat animals they get for free. When you invest money in something you usually take better care of it.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

well dfong think about it whatif ur parents sold u to get some money? thats the same thig as selling a dog for money


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

Buddy, think about what you just said. Using that logic the only way anyone would get a puppy is to breed it themself, because you couldn't get rid of your own. It would be like geting rid of your own kid.


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Not even clouse buddy. Dogs along with many other animals are service animals. People rase cattle chickens and such for food. Oxen, horses, Mules and such to do a job. These animales all serve a job to make human life easer. now that does not mean that they are to be treated badly but if no one bred these animals and mad money doing then there would not be any animals for food service and other needs. 

This may sound harsh to you as you are only 11 and probably have never seen a farm work. They still to this day use horses to round up cattle out west. These horses are bred for that work and do it very well. Then cost a lot of money. However they earn their keep.

Dogs are no different. Some people want them to keep them company, some use dogs as service animals some use them to help bring in food through hinting, some use dogs to herd sheep, cattle and other animals.

Having people pay for an animal only shows to some extent that they really want that animal and that hopfully they will take good care of it. If someone breeds a dog and then just gives it away then who is to say that that persona will not really care about the dog they only got it b/c it was free.

If you breed a dog and then keep every puppy are you really doing those dogs justice. Most breeds need a job. I know my dogs even the mutts like to do something. If I had any more then what I do I would not be able to give them the time they need.

Heidi


----------



## dogluver101 (Jul 6, 2006)

You are thinking of people who just hand you the dog for ten dollars and it is all yours. _That_ is wrong. But a lot of breeders go through long very detailed applications. You need to explain what you mean by selling. Breeders do not sell their dogs to yahoos but instead sell them to very responsible pet owners. MOST responsible breeders also spay/neuter the dogs that are not show quality, therefore making sure that dogs that do not meet the breeding/showing standards do not ever get bred and come out with puppies that are worse. So you need to explain what you mean before you post.


----------



## bullbuddy (Dec 15, 2006)

I attended several dog shows and researched many breeders before appraoching. I had two old boxers and knew one was not going to be around much longer, so I wanted to get another dog for the other boxer( she was in great shape). I had a hard time convincing a breeder to let me have a male dog with another male dog in the house. I talked with my breeder and waited over a year to get our Louie. Pups started at $2000!!. Don't want health problems and big vet bills, bite the bullet up front with a sound dog and breeder.


----------



## Lady Wolf (Dec 15, 2006)

Hello Everyone

I'm new here, in fact, I just became a member tonight. Ironically, in terms of this topic, the reason I joined is because I am in the process of buying a puppy. The problem I'm having, is that I'm trying to locate a mixed breed or so called "specialty breed" and I keep running into two problems. Either the puppy I'm looking for, I can not find locally, or the breeder is asking waaay too much money.

In my humble opinion, it is one thing for the breeder of a pure bred to ask a high selling price, but when you are selling a mixed breed dog, I don't think that you should be able to sell them for the same amount of money as you would a pure bred. Thoughts?

The reason that I want to buy local is because I disagree with the practice of shipping live animals. While I'm aware of the AWA that was passed in order to help alleviate some of these poor transport conditions on planes, I'm also aware that some of the proposed changes did not make it through. I also believe that the only way for the person buying the puppy to really know what they are getting, is for them to see the type of environment that the puppy spent the first few weeks of its life in. As well as to be able to see the parents and siblings of the puppy. Sadly, buying long distances eliminates the ability to be able to do these things. I have also heard horror stories of people who bought over the internet expecting to get the puppy that they paid big money for, only to find out that the puppy waiting for them at the airport is not even that puppy!

I feel like I'm going off topic here, so I will say that while I understand how the OP is feeling regarding selling puppies. I think his idealogy, while admirable, is certainly not practicle in an imperfect world.


----------



## yarbs83 (Dec 15, 2006)

Lady Wolf said:


> Hello Everyone
> 
> I'm new here, in fact, I just became a member tonight. Ironically, in terms of this topic, the reason I joined is because I am in the process of buying a puppy. The problem I'm having, is that I'm trying to locate a mixed breed or so called "specialty breed" and I keep running into two problems. Either the puppy I'm looking for, I can not find locally, or the breeder is asking waaay too much money.
> 
> ...



The reason that these mixed or designer breed puppies cost so much is because they ALL COME FROM PUPPY MILLS. No reputable breeder will breed mixes. It leads to overpopulation of unpredictable puppies and doesn't better any pedigree. 

Puppy mills could care less about where the animal ends up, if it's healthy, ect ect ect.. all they care about is the MONEY.

People will pay high prices because these dogs are hip and cute, but what's not cute is the breeding parents of these dogs that have miserable lives.

If you really want one of these mixes you should check out petfinder.com or poomixrescue.com and not support puppy mills, but adopt a great animal. These sites have MANY of the mixes you're looking for.


----------



## drfong (May 24, 2006)

Hi, welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy it here. Please take my comments as only my opinion and not dirrected at you, but the concept of breeding mixes period. I would not buy a mixed breed dog from any breeder, even if less than full breed price, period. It only promotes people to breed mixed breeds. If you want a mixed breed dog there are tons in shelters everywhere. I know some of them are very cute dogs, but it think when people start buying these dogs it opens up the market to all kinds of unethical breeding practices where people are just breeding dogs for the cash and don't care about the quality of the pups. To me anyone who breeds mixes automaticly falls in the category of irresponcible. Again welcome, and don't really worry about this thread and off topic as I think the wheels came off a long time ago.


----------



## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

THANK YOU DRFONG - some sense!


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

welcome and hope u have a good time on the forums


----------



## babydolwv (Dec 5, 2006)

well i agree with alot that has been said exspecailly about the part if u just give a dog away for free you have a good chance of it being miss treated altho we have given a few dogs away for free as we just couldnt take the proper care of the dog, but we also turned down a few ppl before giving the dog away as we thought they might not give the dog the proper care either... 

we also recently paid 100 bucks for a purebred boston terrier, which had papers, but 2 days later turn vicious on my husband....but we realized when we got there to pick the dog up they had bred the poor thing practically to death.... from the time she went into her first heat she was bred and every single time after that she was bred...we got her when she was 2 yrs old...asked the guy if she was good with children as we have 2 young boys... he told us yes and when the dog tried to attack my husband...he called the guy emidiately and over heard the guys wife say..."y didnt u tell them she bites?" 
i can completely understand the true breeders selling puppys as breeding is very, very exspensive, but i do think the cost of the dogs r getting outragegous.... so thats y i will stick with going to a shelter...to many dogs that need goods homes... and a good family to go to.... and as we dont have much money its very affordable....and a mix breed dog can be just as a great family dog as a purebred, but either way the shelter is still selling the money as they have to buy food and be able to care for the dogs while they r there... so yes i agree that its all well and good to sell a puppy, but i think byb and puppymills r just wrong... they dont need the money to spend on themselves they should use the money for those animals they r killing and turning them mean....much less a dog that could of been a wonderful family pet at 1 point in time.....


----------



## Annabellelee3 (Nov 12, 2006)

i totally agree with you people sell them for the money and sometimes its to hard to look after that amount of dogs


----------



## ilovemywestie (Nov 22, 2006)

*Guys...........*

People breed puppies for a liveing not to be mean.They need the money to keep there dogs alive because dogs are a lot of money.But you do need to watch out for breeders who just do it for the money.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

well i respect most peoples answers to this but im still goin with my words or letters


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

babydolwv said:


> well i agree with alot that has been said exspecailly about the part if u just give a dog away for free you have a good chance of it being miss treated altho we have given a few dogs away for free as we just couldnt take the proper care of the dog, but we also turned down a few ppl before giving the dog away as we thought they might not give the dog the proper care either...
> 
> we also recently paid 100 bucks for a purebred boston terrier, which had papers, but 2 days later turn vicious on my husband....but we realized when we got there to pick the dog up they had bred the poor thing practically to death.... from the time she went into her first heat she was bred and every single time after that she was bred...we got her when she was 2 yrs old...asked the guy if she was good with children as we have 2 young boys... he told us yes and when the dog tried to attack my husband...he called the guy emidiately and over heard the guys wife say..."y didnt u tell them she bites?"
> i can completely understand the true breeders selling puppys as breeding is very, very exspensive, but i do think the cost of the dogs r getting outragegous.... so thats y i will stick with going to a shelter...to many dogs that need goods homes... and a good family to go to.... and as we dont have much money its very affordable....and a mix breed dog can be just as a great family dog as a purebred, but either way the shelter is still selling the money as they have to buy food and be able to care for the dogs while they r there... so yes i agree that its all well and good to sell a puppy, but i think byb and puppymills r just wrong... they dont need the money to spend on themselves they should use the money for those animals they r killing and turning them mean....much less a dog that could of been a wonderful family pet at 1 point in time.....


One of the most important things about choosing a dog is the realization that it's a lifetime commitment. Dogs are dependent on their people, and to adopt or buy a dog without the funds to care for its needs is unfair to the dog, and that includes not only everyday care, but routine veterinary care as well. Those who love dogs and can't really afford them should consider either volunteering at a shelter, or fostering for a shelter or rescue. Both situations gives the chance to have hands on contact with dogs, but doesn't require taking on possible expenses that really don't fit into the budget.


----------



## Dulce (Oct 2, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> One of the most important things about choosing a dog is the realization that it's a lifetime commitment. Dogs are dependent on their people, and to adopt or buy a dog without the funds to care for its needs is unfair to the dog, and that includes not only everyday care, but routine veterinary care as well. Those who love dogs and can't really afford them should consider either volunteering at a shelter, or fostering for a shelter or rescue. Both situations gives the chance to have hands on contact with dogs, but doesn't require taking on possible expenses that really don't fit into the budget.


Very very very very well said. 

I see many posts that say "My dog is sick, but I can't afford medical care"
and it's like..what business do you have owning a dog if you can't care for it?

Or I've seen posts like "I couldn't afford medical care so my dog was put to sleep" 

And like DogAdvocate said, if you can't afford a BASIC necessity of dog ownership, then you really shouldn't own a dog. Veterinary care is crucial, just like food, beds, training, etc.


----------



## icanhelp (Dec 14, 2006)

Buddy said:


> who else thinks selling pups for mony is wrong cuz well the new owner might of just bought the pup for huntin or just to have someont or something to push around
> and its not nice either


I thins it's SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO wrong because you know there's other ways to make money and it's soooooo crule because their puppies you know uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggg you get my point.

and also i have a golden retriever I LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DOGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS i'm going to be a vet when i get older i volunteer at DPVHS www.petz.org an animal shelter


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

icanhelp said:


> and also i have a golden retriever I LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE DOGSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS i'm going to be a vet when i get older i volunteer at DPVHS www.petz.org an animal shelter


Can you please cut back on the excessive use of characters. Thank you.


----------



## Buddy (Nov 22, 2006)

lol curb her are really young kids on this site that like to do that and curb im not trying to offend u but plz sto[p with the perfect grammer thing


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Buddy said:


> lol curb her are really young kids on this site that like to do that and curb im not trying to offend u but plz sto[p with the perfect grammer thing


I don't care if they are a kid or not, everyone needs to follow the forum rules. So please read the forum rules posted in the general dog forum, and specifically #10. And Buddy you know I'm not going to use poor grammar intentionally. You may be too young to care about your grammar, but at some point in your life you will need to depend on good grammar to communicate valuable ideas, which otherwise would be overlooked. So go ahead and write things that are unreadable and are hard to understand, but it would be good practice for you to at least try.


----------



## German Sheperds (Dec 19, 2006)

I breed dogs, but i don't sell them for the money, ( i give half the money i get form the dogs and give it to the local vet clinic and the other half i use to feed my dogs and vet them) i think all people should have at least one dog so by breeding my german shepherd i give every one a chance to own their own dog!....i only breed my dogs once or twice though and then i buy a new one i have 5 german shepherds right now but i live on a 30 acre farm!


----------



## German Sheperds (Dec 19, 2006)

Because their a human society,


----------



## German Sheperds (Dec 19, 2006)

I breed my females with a firends males. and i dont' keep any of the puppies my dogs have, i have only kept one puppie out of a litter, its too hard to keep track of them when i breed them, i do want to keep one of the male puppies this time thought! i breed my females like 4 times and then i dont' breed them any more and get them nutered. My dogs get tested like 1-2 a year!


----------



## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

German Sheperds said:


> I breed my females with a firends males. and i dont' keep any of the puppies my dogs have, i have only kept one puppie out of a litter, its too hard to keep track of them when i breed them, i do want to keep one of the male puppies this time thought! i breed my females like 4 times and then i dont' breed them any more and get them nutered. My dogs get tested like 1-2 a year!


Its not hard to keep track of all your puppies if you were a GOOD breeder. Do you even have a contract? What if someone decided they didn't want to keep one of the puppy's anymore and gave it to the shelter? Because you have no contract or way of tracking your litters, I guess its no longer a concern of yours is it? *rolls eyes*

Tested for WHAT 1-2 times a year?


----------



## Brooklyn (Dec 10, 2006)

Wow...

You wouldn't have a dog right now if nobody sold their dogs. Of course, you may have got your dog for free, but think more open. That dog's bloodline had to come from somewhere, and if dogs weren't sold and weren't used for jobs, they would of died out a long time ago. If you're going to transfer ownership of a dog anyway, what is the problem with supporting yourself as well? Overbreeding is wrong, yes.

EDIT: Btw, I got my current dog from a kill-shelter. She had been there for a little over a month (normal time to euthinasia is less than a week) and was days away from death. My next dog (AKC Rottie) will be from a good breeder. I'd love another pound dog, but I'm going into "Law Enforcement" (bail), and I want a specifically trained dog.


----------



## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

Brooklyn said:


> Wow...
> 
> You wouldn't have a dog right now if nobody sold their dogs. Of course, you may have got your dog for free, but think more open. That dog's bloodline had to come from somewhere, and if dogs weren't sold and weren't used for jobs, they would of died out a long time ago. If you're going to transfer ownership of a dog anyway, what is the problem with supporting yourself as well? Overbreeding is wrong, yes.
> 
> EDIT: Btw, I got my current dog from a kill-shelter. She had been there for a little over a month (normal time to euthinasia is less than a week) and was days away from death. My next dog (AKC Rottie) will be from a good breeder. I'd love another pound dog, but I'm going into "Law Enforcement" (bail), and I want a specifically trained dog.



Uhm if you think that currently the world is in a situation where if breeding stops dogs will go extinct, than you are very naive...are u aware of overpopulation and the killing of thousands of innocent dogs because there is a LACK of homes for all of them? Overbreeding is EXACTLY what is happening...I suggest you do some research on what it means to be a responsible breeder, because I think you have been misinformed highly.


----------



## Brooklyn (Dec 10, 2006)

Pitbull said:


> Uhm if you think that currently the world is in a situation where if breeding stops dogs will go extinct, than you are very naive...are u aware of overpopulation and the killing of thousands of innocent dogs because there is a LACK of homes for all of them? Overbreeding is EXACTLY what is happening...I suggest you do some research on what it means to be a responsible breeder, because I think you have been misinformed highly.


"That dog's bloodline had to come from somewhere, and if dogs weren't sold and weren't used for jobs, they would of died out *a long time ago.*"



He said selling dogs is wrong, not selling dogs in modern times is wrong.. smh.


----------



## Bellaclan (Dec 20, 2006)

I don't even know where to begin with this post. 

Firstly Buddy, BEFORE ANYONE ever breeders their dog they should get all needed health testing done. Each dog that is bred should have a title on it or have been proven somehow or even assesed by other knowledgeable people that the dog is and outstanding example of the breed. The dog must be registired through a reputable organization, and be from a reputable breeder, who made you sign into a contract when you got your dog. If none of the above is done your dog should NEVER EVER be bred. 

Here is a personal example of mine, I happend to me and will again so I know that it is indeed true!

I have a nice bitch here, her daddy is from Austrailia and I imported her from the USA. She is gloriouse and will be bred this summer to a Finnland Imp. It will cost me about $1000 to get all health testing done and certified. This is Hips, elbows, heart, thyroid and eyes Optigen DNA. Another $1500 US is her stud fee and another $1000 to artificialy inseminate her! It will cost $800 to microchip and DNA the wole litter, another $500 plus to vaccinate, worm etc. another $500 to feed the bitch extra and the pups, i suplement with meat, fish oils, yogurt. Then there is the gass to the air port, phone bills to diffrent countries $200 plus, and then there is the emergency fund, if the bitch needs a c-section or something dreadful goes wrong, I may only get 1 pup from the whole ordeal, who knows what could happen, there is eclampsia and mammary gland infections and soo much more.

THE BITCH MAY EVEN DIE....do you wnat to see this happen to the mom of your pups? 

My pups will go for $1000-$1500 maybe plus. What if I get to pups, Im in debt, o well, what if i loose the bitch, what if she dosen't take the AI $1000 down the drain and no pups. 

I also have to feed, vet, show and pay for the bitch for two years untill she can even be bred IF she even turn into the quality that i would think about breeding. I think its safe to say that about $5000 is spent during those two years for general care, classes, shows, gas, vet.

Now add on all the sleepless night's days of work with NO PAY. 

*And you wnat us to just give these dogs away free?:*eek: 

Now to the lady breeding shepherds, yell and convince me all you want. BUT I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU BREEDING YOUR DOGS AT ALL. mOST OF THE RESCUES ARE GSD crosses. Spay all you dogs and dont breed again, I know this sound harsh and mean and cruel and I will recieve many yelling responses, but have you ever see a rescue and all the GSD there are. It is sad I never fail to cry when i walk into a rescue and see all those dogs there, with n o homes and no one to love them. The people you are sellign puppies to or giving puppies to watever, TELL THEM TO GO TO A RESCUE IF THEY WANT A DOG. Do us a favour. If you really love dogs, you would stop breeding and instead put your time twards trying to help home all the rescue out there. Dont make more. IF YOU LISTEN TO ME WE WILL KNOW THAT YOU DO REALLY LOVE YOUR DOGS AND THIS BREED, if you don't I will no longer have respect for you as I don't have respect for anyone who dosen't care about the well being of the pups they put on the ground or who dosen't care about the fact that their breeding paractises cruel or who chooses to ignore all the rescues out there that NEVER fail to make tears come to my eyes and make me feel like taking them all home and because I can't I wnat to run and hide and never see a dog treated as such ever again. 

If you are not going to breed dogs correctly NO NOT DO IT AT ALL, leave it to the knowledgeable reputable breeders who dedicate their hearts, spirt and minds to the breeds they love so much and strive to imporve upon. Please help rescue. I do a lot of rescue and I love seeing dogs in their new homes. Because I only have a litter once a year or not even I have some space to take in the odd rescue and there is NOTHING more fullfilling then knowing you have saved a dog.

PLEASE PLEASE CONSIDER WHAT I SAYING!

Sry I am ver heated and my grammer is most likely horrible.

Lauren 
Bellaclan Border Collieshttp://www.geocities.com/bellaclan_bcs


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Proven is like butty it is in the eye of the beholder. I am willing to say that what I think is proven is totally differnt then what you think is proven. 

Cost of putting a litter on the ground is nothing compaired to putting a foal on the ground and takes a lot less time. However it cost less to raise keep train and show a dog then a foal/horse. Also their are more poeple who want a dog for a pet and really could care less about breeding/bloodlines show record then just want a specific breed of dog for what ever reason. These poeple are not going to pay what others will pay and there needs to be a pup for them. 

SO to say that one breeder is better then the other is again in the eye of the beholder. As long as the dogs is healthy and certified acourding to its breed.

As for the GS breeder. I really do not see what the big deal is if she does not keep one of the pups and gets a new dog for breeding as long as the other dogs are well cared for. I would hope that each female she buys is better then the last. That is how you improve your breeding program. I know is over a decade of breeding I have only kept 1 horse I have ever bred for. I have bought may prospects over the years. All from what I have gotten from selling the others.

Each person has to looking inside themselves and ask what they want in the end. Hopefully it will be something that will inprove of what they have. If not then they should not be doing. However what is an inprovment to one may be differnt to anouther.

Heidi


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Then since I do not keep any of the foals I breed for then by your resoning I am not inproving the breed or my program. Am I reading you correctly. Same with this person. As long as the next dog is better then the last then yes she is inproving. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy the best dog posible. Sometimes you need to work your way up.

Heidi


----------



## cujo3269 (Dec 21, 2006)

first off chihuahua's beagals anything like that are GREAT dogs with long hair.lol. second how is selling anything for money wrong?


----------



## ebony923 (Dec 8, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> Also their are more poeple who want a dog for a pet and really could care less about breeding/bloodlines show record then just want a specific breed of dog for what ever reason. These poeple are not going to pay what others will pay and there needs to be a pup for them.


First off I want to say that I totally agree with Bellaclan's post and love it. Secodnly, If someone wants a dog for a pet they should go to a rescue and get their dog. They dont need a specific breed, they just want it to say that they have that... and if they want a specific breed so bad then go to a Breed rescue and save a dog that needs a home instead of giving your money to someone who is breeding "breed" dogs that shouldnt be breed. Someone who breeds a dog that doesnt have a title is not a breeder, they are just contributing to the overpopulation and for every puppy they sell to a family that just wants a pet they are killing a puppy that is sitting in a kennel waiting to die because their is one less spot in a family for him. 
Even if you are a good reputable breeder you shouldnt sell puppies to people who just want a family pet... you should at least sell the not so god built ones that wouldnt make it in confomation to someone who is going to do something with it. 
And Iam not trying to say that Shelter dogs cant compete and do good in dog sports because I have a Lab mix from a shelter that has her Agility 1 title in UKC and working on her Ag 2 and me and her got Second in our Novice Senior Junior Showmanship class at Kalamazoo In UKC and she was the only dog in that ring that wasnt a "pure-breed" so shelter dogs can do things to and be successful... so back yard breeders...stop contributing to the over-population and if your a "breeder" re-consider your breeding.


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> Then since I do not keep any of the foals I breed for then by your resoning I am not inproving the breed or my program. Am I reading you correctly. Same with this person. As long as the next dog is better then the last then yes she is inproving. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy the best dog posible. Sometimes you need to work your way up.
> 
> Heidi


We're not talking about upgrading cars here. Improving is not about you buying progressively improved animals. When you say that one needs to work their way up, you're promoting people breeding bad quality dogs, and then buying new dogs to breed that are a little better quality, and on and on. Don't you realize how many dogs will be produced that way who are not healthy and/or conformationally correct? What you seem to be saying is that if I can't afford to buy a CHD clear dog to breed, then it's okay to buy and breed one that is not clear until I can afford one that is. That way of thinking is a disaster for the dogs. How many dogs will suffer from CHD because people settled for what they could afford to buy and breed? Geez.

It sounds like you don't really understand the concept of selective breeding. With all of the homeless dogs in this country, there is no reason to be breeding anything but the best to the best - and that means animals that have all the requisite testing to attempt to insure that they are disease free and meet the breed standard. In order to do this, a responsible breeder starts out with the dog that most closely meets that standard, and are the healthiest, and then mates it with another dog that is even better. The goal is to produce puppies that better than the parents, and the breeding program continues when the best of that litter is bred to carry on the line and continue to improve that line.

And I'd be totally surprised if it wasn't the same way in the horse world. Again, it's not like cars where you just go buy a new and better one each year, based on what you can afford.


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Ridiculous to compare horses, who have ONE baby at a time, which takes a YEAR to produce, to dogs who generally have numerous ones to choose from, and can reproduce from 2 to 3X per year.
> 
> If you cannot afford to buy proper stock to start with, you should be breeding neither dogs, nor horses, nor mice.


First no it is not ridiculous to comepare the 2. A horse lives 3 times longer or more then a dog. A stallion can and does, depending on the stallion, sire over 2000 foals in his life time. Not to mentions in some breeds frozen semen so they keep producing foals along after they are gone. Mares if they are good enough can and do produced multilpe offspring a year. It takes many many years to raise and prove a foal. There are people who can not and do not want or afford a top horse out of a proven stock they just want a good horse that will not hurt them or run off with them. This is where the smaller breeders who have good stock but not world beaters. Why pay $50K for a trail horse?

As for affording top stock to begin with. When I started breeding over a decade ago even making over $60K a year I could not have afforded a $75K+ horse/prospect then the training showing and such. I starded out with good stock not at all world betters but good stock that compet well at lower leval shows and make good solid companions. Now I have several world betters standing in my barn.

Yes I could go out and get a rescue horse but it does not cost me any more to keep my $75K mare then it does a puck from down the road at the rescue who is there b/c he just buck off his last owner has gone through several good trainers and owner and still wants to buck and kick.

Dogs are no differnt. Some will be world beaters some will be just good hunting dogs some will be just good faimily pets. Some will come from breeders and some from rescues. I have been a foster home for years for dogs and have kept a few. One b/c it was a biter. He was an older dog and he lived here for about 3 years before I had him put down. Anouther was my Salukie. I also have several other dogs who are all over the age of 10 that where droped off on my farm when I lived in Tn. Some of those that I had down there before I moved back up here I found good homes for the rest came with me. Now I am in the market for a Golden and I will not settle for less than what I want. I feel I have done my part in rescueing dogs and cats from selters and rescues and now want anouther Golden. Why should I settle? 

When it comes down to breeding, looking for, and buying the right animal there is very little differncs in how you go about it. Perhaps if you steped down off your high horse you would see that there are other ways of doing things. I have even learned alot from the Dairy farm down the road that I worked with for several years. Going to countiuous educations classes at several top universities over the years for breeding and animal husbandry. I am not at all new to this. I have been breeding for many many years and studying the "art of breeding" when it comes down to it there are simularites in every type of animal.

Heidi


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> We're not talking about upgrading cars here. Improving is not about you buying progressively improved animals. When you say that one needs to work their way up, you're promoting people breeding bad quality dogs, and then buying new dogs to breed that are a little better quality, and on and on. Don't you realize how many dogs will be produced that way who are not healthy and/or conformationally correct? What you seem to be saying is that if I can't afford to buy a CHD clear dog to breed, then it's okay to buy and breed one that is not clear until I can afford one that is. That way of thinking is a disaster for the dogs. How many dogs will suffer from CHD because people settled for what they could afford to buy and breed? Geez.
> 
> It sounds like you don't really understand the concept of selective breeding. With all of the homeless dogs in this country, there is no reason to be breeding anything but the best to the best - and that means animals that have all the requisite testing to attempt to insure that they are disease free and meet the breed standard. In order to do this, a responsible breeder starts out with the dog that most closely meets that standard, and are the healthiest, and then mates it with another dog that is even better. The goal is to produce puppies that better than the parents, and the breeding program continues when the best of that litter is bred to carry on the line and continue to improve that line.
> 
> And I'd be totally surprised if it wasn't the same way in the horse world. Again, it's not like cars where you just go buy a new and better one each year, based on what you can afford.



I am not talking about breeding to pucks. I am talking about picking a good dog one who is a good but, not great, representation of the breed but may not be champoin quality or a world better. A dog that will produce good sound dogs with good temperments with little genetic defect. B/C no matter how you try and convince me that hip displasia is 100% genetic I do not agree. There are too may dogs with certified excelant hips who produce dogs with displasia. SO what, then if it is genetic then it is a resesive gene and both partents should be fixed and never bred again and this is not being done. What if you had a dog who was had all it clearences and you spent time and money to promote that dog to all it titles they bred it to anouther certified dog with all his titles and then produced a dog with a problem. Would you fix your dog?

As for horse you go out and try starting where I am now. You could probable not do it. Each person needs to start some place and as long as they do their homework and study and put a plan into words and then into action they will inprove on what they are doing. I see it in dogs, in horses, heck I even see in dairy cattle, feeder calves, and you name it. I have been around it and have seen how these operations work, which ones make it and make a very very good living at it and wich ones do not.

Also every animal I have ever breed for myself out of my stock have been proven before they where ever bred. It takes alot more to prove a horse then it does a dog. 

Howmany top breeder in dogs breed their dogs and how many do they keep? If they are breeding champions dogs and have several generations of champions on their papers then every dogs should be at some extent show quality and they are not. Yet most of these breeders still ask an outragous amount for those "pet quality dogs". See it in horses too. Top breeders sell off what they think will not be the best and ask an out ragous amont for it just b/c of their name. I can go and get just as good or beter of a horse from a small breeder. 

Anyway if done correctly you can use what you get from the sell of an animal and that money sould be used to inprove your breeding operation in any way you see fit. If you keep the statous quo then you are not doing your job I do not care who you are or how good your stock is how many champions you have. If you are not improving is some way then stop doing it.

Heidi


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> We're not talking about upgrading cars here. Improving is not about you buying progressively improved animals. When you say that one needs to work their way up, you're promoting people breeding bad quality dogs, and then buying new dogs to breed that are a little better quality, and on and on. Don't you realize how many dogs will be produced that way who are not healthy and/or conformationally correct? What you seem to be saying is that if I can't afford to buy a CHD clear dog to breed, then it's okay to buy and breed one that is not clear until I can afford one that is. That way of thinking is a disaster for the dogs. How many dogs will suffer from CHD because people settled for what they could afford to buy and breed? Geez.
> 
> It sounds like you don't really understand the concept of selective breeding. With all of the homeless dogs in this country, there is no reason to be breeding anything but the best to the best - and that means animals that have all the requisite testing to attempt to insure that they are disease free and meet the breed standard. In order to do this, a responsible breeder starts out with the dog that most closely meets that standard, and are the healthiest, and then mates it with another dog that is even better. The goal is to produce puppies that better than the parents, and the breeding program continues when the best of that litter is bred to carry on the line and continue to improve that line.
> 
> And I'd be totally surprised if it wasn't the same way in the horse world. Again, it's not like cars where you just go buy a new and better one each year, based on what you can afford.



I am not talking about breeding to pucks. I am talking about picking a good dog one who is a good but, not great, representation of the breed but may not be champoin quality or a world better. A dog that will produce good sound dogs with good temperments with little genetic defect. B/C no matter how you try and convince me that hip displasia is 100% genetic I do not agree. There are too may dogs with certified excelant hips who produce dogs with displasia. SO what, then if it is genetic then it is a resesive gene and both partents should be fixed and never bred again and this is not being done. What if you had a dog who was had all it clearences and you spent time and money to promote that dog to all it titles they bred it to anouther certified dog with all his titles and then produced a dog with a problem. Would you fix your dog?

As for horse you go out and try starting where I am now. You could probable not do it. Each person needs to start some place and as long as they do their homework and study and put a plan into words and then into action they will inprove on what they are doing. I see it in dogs, in horses, heck I even see in dairy cattle, feeder calves, and you name it. I have been around it and have seen how these operations work, which ones make it and make a very very good living at it and wich ones do not.

Also every animal I have ever breed for myself out of my stock have been proven before they where ever bred. It takes alot more to prove a horse then it does a dog. 

Howmany top breeder in dogs breed their dogs and how many do they keep? If they are breeding champions dogs and have several generations of champions on their papers then every dogs should be at some extent show quality and they are not. Yet most of these breeders still ask an outragous amount for those "pet quality dogs". See it in horses too. Top breeders sell off what they think will not be the best and ask an out ragous amont for it just b/c of their name. I can go and get just as good or beter of a horse from a small breeder. 

Anyway if done correctly you can use what you get from the sell of an animal and that money sould be used to inprove your breeding operation in any way you see fit. If you keep the statous quo then you are not doing your job I do not care who you are or how good your stock is how many champions you have. If you are not improving is some way then stop doing it.

Heidi


----------



## atldoglover (Nov 8, 2006)

cujo3269 said:


> first off chihuahua's beagals anything like that are not dogs but rats with long hair.lol. second how is selling anything for money wrong?


   So not appropriate


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

atldoglover said:


> So not appropriate


I've informed cujo of this statement, and you're right. But let's all ignore the statement as it adds nothing to the thread. Thank you.


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

If show records are so important and I do agree that an animals should be proven before breeding. However each person must deside what proven means to them. For me proven means 2 differnt things. One you can have a proven animal in the show ring. That shows the quality of that aniamal. Which is good. However and this is where I want to see any animal proven is in the breeding shed and with AKC there is no way to track this so to me there is no real way to prove breeding stock in dogs. You have no way to track what a dog has produced crossed on what. These are all very important things that need to be looked in to whan chosing a breeding cross. Also to only allow un altered dogs to show in comformations is also ridiculous. If AKC had conformasion classes for alther dogs they whould do may things for the dog industry. One they would give people who want to show a way to do so with out having to keep an dog intact if they do not want too. If they kept records on offspring this would give a biger picture of what the breeding stock produces.

I do agree that animals should be DNA TESTED for genetic falts/defects. If there is not a DNA test for a defect then there needs to be one. Untill then you can use what is avalable but I personally put very little stock in the other forms of testing. Also animals need to be DNA type and offspring should be DNA type and parentage varified befor any animal is used for breeding. If they trace to a line who is a known carrier for a genetic defect this needs to be put on the animals papers and tested if posible.

Also just so you know a mare can produce more then one foal a year through Embyo transfer. Some mares produce 3-4 foals a year or more using this methoud. Then we will not even get into Cloneing. 

Heidi


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> This is not a horse forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ebony923 (Dec 8, 2006)

I forgot to mention that I think the breeding of REAL breeds by REAL respectiable breeders that go to homes and people who are going to try to make that bloodline better is alright....but the breeding and selling of Labradoodles, Cockapoos, Shipoos, or anything like that is wrong! Those arent breeds...their mutts...mixed breeds...and they shouldnt be breed becuase they just come from back yard breeders who sell them for big bucks because their a "fashion breed" their not a breed their mutts and mixed breeds... and they just end up in shelters and pets stores while the person who bred them is making money to breed another litter of back yard bred mutts.


----------



## dogincrisis (Dec 19, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with mutts. I've had several over my lifetime and they have been some of the best dogs I have ever had. I do agree however that they should not be sold, except for maybe to recover some of the cost of the birth. 

But there is an alternate view to this. Think about it this way. At some point in time, your precious (insert breed here) was once a "mutt". It was bred in a certain way to attain the qualities that the breeder wanted and in the process crossing two dog breeds. And because they have been bred together to keep these qualities for a long time, they have become a recognized breed.

Of course, all this comes from my uneducated mind (as far as dog breeding goes) and I may be completely wrong. If I am please correct me.


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> I am not talking about breeding to pucks. I am talking about picking a good dog one who is a good but, not great, representation of the breed but may not be champoin quality or a world better. A dog that will produce good sound dogs with good temperments with little genetic defect. B/C no matter how you try and convince me that hip displasia is 100% genetic I do not agree. There are too may dogs with certified excelant hips who produce dogs with displasia. SO what, then if it is genetic then it is a resesive gene and both partents should be fixed and never bred again and this is not being done. What if you had a dog who was had all it clearences and you spent time and money to promote that dog to all it titles they bred it to anouther certified dog with all his titles and then produced a dog with a problem. Would you fix your dog?


You appear to be contradicting yourself. You say you don't agree that CHD is 100% genetic, and then talk about recessive genes. Recessive or not, it's still genetic - it's inherited, whether it comes from parents, grandparents, great-grandparents - whatever. This is one of the reasons it's so important to do multi-generational research. Or are you suggesting that CHD is environmental? To answer your question, about whether to fix the dog or not, there's always going to be the question of whether the problem came from the father's side or the mother's side. Before a breeder decided to alter their dog, it would be reasonable to breed it to a completely different well-tested and researched dog to help rule out which dog was the carrier in the prior breeding. Of course such test breeding has the potential of producing more sick puppies, as well as adding more dogs to an overpopulated dog world, but that's one of the ethically questionable parts of breeding that makes breeding morally questionable.



> As for horse you go out and try starting where I am now. You could probable not do it. Each person needs to start some place and as long as they do their homework and study and put a plan into words and then into action they will inprove on what they are doing. I see it in dogs, in horses, heck I even see in dairy cattle, feeder calves, and you name it. I have been around it and have seen how these operations work, which ones make it and make a very very good living at it and wich ones do not.


Which brings us back full circle. Your criteria for success appears to be profit. IMO, a responsible breeder doesn't breed for profit, they breed to preserve and improve the breed. As long as success is measured by monetary gain, then the animals are going to lose. That's why good and responsible breeders are hobbyists and don't make a business out of it. They expect to lose money, just like any other hobby does, because they are doing it for the love of the breed. It's the same thing with rescue, really. No one ethically goes into rescue to make money - they do it to save the dogs that they care about. When money gets in the way, then decisions will be made based on profit, and not on the welfare of the animal, nor the welfare of the breed they represent. And that profit motive is what drives some people to breed adequate animals instead of excellent quality animals, thereby reducing the general health and temperament of the breed in general. There's a big difference between improving what an individual is doing and improving the breed. An individual can improve by breeding "D" quality dogs or horses, instead of the "F" quality dogs or horses they used to breed. But that still puts out a lot of "D" or poor quality animals into the world. And that's just plain wrong



> Also every animal I have ever breed for myself out of my stock have been proven before they where ever bred. It takes alot more to prove a horse then it does a dog.


Are you saying that your horses were proven before they were bred meaning before they were born, or before they were mated to produce more offspring. If the former, could you explain how you prove an unborn animal?



> Howmany top breeder in dogs breed their dogs and how many do they keep? If they are breeding champions dogs and have several generations of champions on their papers then every dogs should be at some extent show quality and they are not.


I'm not sure what you mean by "top breeders", but responsible breeders are obviously breeding their dogs or they wouldn't be called breeders, and since their purpose for breeding is to preserve and improve the breed, they keep the best puppy for themselves so that they can carry on the line to the next generation. Now you seem to think that each litter should be comprised of show quality puppies as long as they come from champion lineage, but since the point is to breed the best to the best, then there has to be a "best" in every litter. They aren't clones. They are unique individuals. And each one will hopefully be as close to perfect as possible; the model of perfection being the breed standard. In conformation, something as simple as a slightly misaligned tooth can keep a dog from being considered show quality. Though I think there are a lot of problems that need to be addressed in the AKC show rings, if one is trying to improve the breed, one doesn't bother competing with a dog that isn't as good in quality as the other dogs who are competing. It's a waste of time and money.



> Yet most of these breeders still ask an outragous amount for those "pet quality dogs". See it in horses too. Top breeders sell off what they think will not be the best and ask an out ragous amont for it just b/c of their name. I can go and get just as good or beter of a horse from a small breeder.


I won't address horses here, because I really don't know enough about them, but I think you are wrong about dogs. The "outrageous" amounts "top breeders" (yet to be defined) are asking for their pet quality puppies are justifiable (in most cases) because their expenses in producing show quality puppies is the same as in producing the rest of the litter - the pet quality puppies. Now I need to make a disclaimer here, because their are breeders that will charge exhorbitant amounts for both show and pet quality puppies, but IMO, that's not what responsible breeders do -- instead it's what those who breed for profit do, and that's not responsible. Pet quality puppies are no different from show quality puppies with the sole exception that they aren't worth breeding. The concept of "best" only applies to those that come as close to the breed standard as possible, and little things like misaligned teeth, or an imperfect tail set, or a million other things that denote imperfections, should keep that dog from being bred. Often the puppy buyer can't even detect the flaws that a breeder (or show judge) recognize. I was once shown a samoyed that was destined to be a show dog, but one front leg turned in ever so slightly. Even though the condition was pointed out to me, I really couldn't even see it - but the breeder could, and their hopes for that dog were dashed. That dog became a wonderful, neutered, pet quality dog.



> Anyway if done correctly you can use what you get from the sell of an animal and that money sould be used to inprove your breeding operation in any way you see fit. If you keep the statous quo then you are not doing your job I do not care who you are or how good your stock is how many champions you have. If you are not improving is some way then stop doing it. Heidi


Responsible breeding is not about improving the breeding operation, it's about improving and preserving the breed. And the breed is not improved if you start with inferior animals and attempt to improve them. The responsible thing to do is to start with excellent quality dogs and attempt to make them better. If you can't afford to start with the best quality animals, then you shouldn't be breeding at all. If you don't know how to start breeding the best quality animals, or you don't know how to judge their quality, then it's time to seek the aid of a mentor - an experienced, responsible breeder.


----------



## tulip (Dec 27, 2006)

Interesting thread you have going here. Something that I have often wondered about is what happens to the pups (any breed) that don't meet the breed standard? anyone got a comment?


----------



## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

Sorry if I sound thick. BUT 
WHY IS EVERYONE SO KEEN TO BREED THEIR DOGS????
To me this is a job for professionals - simple! The breeder I got my dog from -dogs, breeding etc... is a lifestyle not a hobby.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

tulip said:


> Interesting thread you have going here. Something that I have often wondered about is what happens to the pups (any breed) that don't meet the breed standard? anyone got a comment?


in every litter of pups, no matter how carefully bred, there are going to be those "not so perfect puppies" and those are still placed in good homes w/ a spay/neuter contract by reputable breeders and kept track of to make sure that any of the traits that are being tested for (HD, CEA, PRA, etc) are not there even in the "culls".....a responsible breeder keeps track of (and will take back if need be) any and all of their offspring.....


----------



## RobDar (Dec 28, 2006)

*be specific...*

the problem here is a need to be specific...
as is typical of situations surrounding animals, people lead with their hearts ( not that this is a bad thing) and do not think things through...
selling pups is wrong...
well as far as that statement itself goes I would have to disagree. It is greatly dependant on WHO is selling the pups. Commercial breeding, puppy mills, and pet stores...these are unnecessary and wrong. The Joe Blow breeding his dog "just for the experience" of it...or the hundreds of other bad reason people breed their pets...is wrong. The breeding of dogs should be left to professionals. The next problem is defining a professional breeder...which is a whole other discussion.

being in rescue and with approx. 12 million dog put down every year in this country...we are not really in need of more puppies...but if there are going to be puppies, those puppies should come from professional breeders.
selling pups is not wrong...the tendency for the american public to shop around for the best "bargian basement" puppy is wrong. The problem does not lie with the people breeding...it lies with the people buying.


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

RobDar said:


> the problem here is a need to be specific...
> as is typical of situations surrounding animals, people lead with their hearts ( not that this is a bad thing) and do not think things through...
> selling pups is wrong...
> well as far as that statement itself goes I would have to disagree. It is greatly dependant on WHO is selling the pups. Commercial breeding, puppy mills, and pet stores...these are unnecessary and wrong. The Joe Blow breeding his dog "just for the experience" of it...or the hundreds of other bad reason people breed their pets...is wrong. The breeding of dogs should be left to professionals. The next problem is defining a professional breeder...which is a whole other discussion.
> ...


I was right with you until the last sentence. A case could be made that the problem lies with both, but the problem originates with the breeder. If the problem is ever going to be solved, wouldn't it be a lot easier to change the practices of the breeders who are only a fraction of the number of the buyers? 

One of the plusses to the idea that puppies shouldn't be sold is that if it was illegal to sell them, those that breed for profit would stop breeding and get out of the business. There could even be reimbursement of verifiable expenses for the breeder - vet charges, for instance. Breeding would be what it should have been all along - an attempt to preserve and improve the breed.


----------



## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Tamara said:


> Sorry if I sound thick. BUT
> WHY IS EVERYONE SO KEEN TO BREED THEIR DOGS????
> To me this is a job for professionals - simple! The breeder I got my dog from -dogs, breeding etc... is a lifestyle not a hobby.


The term "professional" indicates someone who gets paid for what they do. A person that's in it for the profit. A hobby breeder is doing it for the love of the breed, not for the money, and are more inclined to put the welfare of the dogs, and the good of the breed, foremost in their activities. If the word "hobby" bothers you, think of those dedicated hobbyists in other fields, like model railroad hobbyists, or miniature dollhouse hobbyists - these people do what they do because they love what they do. Wouldn't it be better to go with a breeder that was dedicated to the dogs, and not the buck?


----------



## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

Yes of course a person can be great at their hobby. What I meant by professional is they are established and successful in their field - perhaps it was the wrong word to use. No I didn't mean AT ALL to imply that a good breeder is making a profit from breeding but is active in maintaining high standards of the breed. The breeder we bought our youngest from does not make a profit in the slightest all the money made from the litters is for the feeding, vets, showing etc... of her dogs.


----------



## storm178 (Nov 5, 2006)

*You are right!*



Buddy said:


> who else thinks selling pups for mony is wrong cuz well the new owner might of just bought the pup for huntin or just to have someont or something to push around
> and its not nice either


 You are absoulotly right! But if you interview the new owner or put a mini carmra on the dog your selling, you can tell what they do with animals. Plus if they abuse the dog, you can have them arested! I cant belive I thought of that! I'm only 11!!!


----------



## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

RobDar said:


> being in rescue and with approx. 12 million dog put down every year in this country...we are not really in need of more puppies...but if there are going to be puppies, those puppies should come from professional breeders.


Darn it RobDar, as much respect as I have developed for you based on your posts on this board, for your candor and for your efforts, I would hate to see a world in which dogs are defined solely by humans-worse solely by what has become "sanctioned" by the likes of the AKC. 

To me there is a world of wonder in the infinite possibilities of dogs. This is not to say that I advocate breeding willy nilly or being irresponsible with spaying and neutering. There will always be intact males and females who mate and produce canine offspring that do not meet any breed standard, indeed, are utterly unidentifable. So there is no likelihood that someday dog breeding is 100 % in the hands of self-appointed professionals. Dog breeds were not created by nature nor by some "higher being", they were created by humans. To me they are therfore not sacred. I for one am far more in awe of nature than of the AKC. I truly hope you read this as I meant it, not as criticism of what you do in rescue or of your viewpoint in general.


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

I read the Orignal post and laughed because this whole thread has got to be a giant joke. No one is THAT stupid...


----------



## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

nrhareiner - Several things you said made me a bit upset. I don't own horses and never have. My ultimate ambition is to be a massage therapist for horses and because of that and the fact that I have loved them since I was able to think, I consider myself pretty well educated when it comes to horses. I worked with horses at a therapeutic riding facility for six years and volunteer my time there still (which puts me at 12 years there now) and I also have taken riding lessons since I was 11 and since I am 21 now, that would mean I have been riding for ten years. 
My current job is as a small animal massage therapist, I work in a veterinary practise WITH a veterinarian and my work helps animals to heal after surgery, calm them etc. I AM NOT AN ANIMAL EXPERT AND DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF ONE!!!! I just want to make that clear. BUT, nrhareiner, you said horses live three times longer or more than dogs....not true. Most horses live to be an average age of 20 to 30 years. Yes there are horses who live to be older than 30, I myself help care for a horse who is 36 years old.....yes that’s right, you heard me 36!!! Dogs live an average of 10 to 13 years I would venture to guess. That can depend on the size of the dog also. Small dogs, like Chihuahuas and yorkies can live to 17 or 18 and big dogs like st. Bernard’s or great danes some times only live to be 7 or 8 years old. There are always exceptions to these examples, yes, but that is the usual norm. Now I don't know about you....but I haven't met to many 50 year old horses lately. 
As for the comment you made about mares being able to give birth to more than one foal a year. That is not possible as a mares gestation lasts 11 months and a year is 12 months. Mares do have twins....but rarely and yes embryo transfer is an option, a disgustingly expensive one and one I do not consider to be natural. So in my opinion, embryo transfer doesn't count. It can count in yours, whatever, but to me it does not because that doesn’t happen naturally. And don't get me started on cloning.
You make it sound like all rescue horses are lost causes. And since when has breeding animals become an art form? It also seems to me like you are suggesting anyone with a "good" dog or horse or cat whatever can breed their animal. Yes this is true; they can breed their pet, but should they? People breeding their animals because they are “good” are what spawned BYB's and puppy mills. Personally I would rather go to a breeder who says their dogs/horses are great and can prove that. And it is possible to keep track of a dog’s family tree and their genetics. I believe most people call that a "blood-line" or in simpler terms a family tree. Most dogs and horses that are pure-bred or champions that come from good reputable breeders will have this or they will at least have the names of the parents and the grandparents of the pup/foal you are considering for purchase. I think my dogs are great, should I breed them absolutly not!!!!
Buddy - I can understand where you are coming from. I to think it is wrong to sell animals for money. If it is SOLEY for the purpose of monetary gain that is. I think that breeders who responsibly breed their animals to better the breed should charge for their pups, why not? And also Buddy ....really....honestly.....I had the same thoughts as you when I was 11, the whole "I'm not a kid" thing. But you know what? When people can live up to 80 and 90 years of age, and you are only 11, trust me....your opinions WILL change and you will think differently some day. You may still think it is wrong to sell puppies for money but when you grow up a bit and experience a bit more of life, you will know WHY and you will know the difference between BYB's and puppy mills and good reputable breeders and that is what people are trying to tell you when they say you opinions will change. Not that you will think selling a life is ok, but that there is a difference. In a perfect world no one would sell a living breathing animal for money, but unfortunately as you will eventually learn.....this is not a perfect world, far from it. 
And about the comment you made to Curbside Prophet about not using such perfect spelling and grammar? Why should people not use perfect grammar and spelling? Do you know how many letters I get from grown men and women asking for my help that are spelled in that irritating and (I’m sorry but) completely idiotic internet language that people use? I am not the only person who thinks that people who write letters to people using that kind of language are un-educated. 60% of my high school graduating class could not spell or even read at their grade level, most were UNDER grade 3. That is sad in my opinion. So if you want to make a convincing argument, then consider you spelling because it is an important factor.
And to those who will criticize my spelling and/or grammar…..sue me. I am only trying to make a point. I'm not perfect and neither are you.


----------



## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Chloef_2799 said:


> nrhareiner - Several things you said made me a bit upset. I don't own horses and never have. My ultimate ambition is to be a massage therapist for horses and because of that and the fact that I have loved them since I was able to think, I consider myself pretty well educated when it comes to horses. I worked with horses at a therapeutic riding facility for six years and volunteer my time there still (which puts me at 12 years there now) and I also have taken riding lessons since I was 11 and since I am 21 now, that would mean I have been riding for ten years.
> My current job is as a small animal massage therapist, I work in a veterinary practise WITH a veterinarian and my work helps animals to heal after surgery, calm them etc. I AM NOT AN ANIMAL EXPERT AND DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF ONE!!!! I just want to make that clear. BUT, nrhareiner, you said horses live three times longer or more than dogs....not true. Most horses live to be an average age of 20 to 30 years. Yes there are horses who live to be older than 30, I myself help care for a horse who is 36 years old.....yes that’s right, you heard me 36!!! Dogs live an average of 10 to 13 years I would venture to guess. That can depend on the size of the dog also. Small dogs, like Chihuahuas and yorkies can live to 17 or 18 and big dogs like st. Bernard’s or great danes some times only live to be 7 or 8 years old. There are always exceptions to these examples, yes, but that is the usual norm. Now I don't know about you....but I haven't met to many 50 year old horses lately.
> As for the comment you made about mares being able to give birth to more than one foal a year. That is not possible as a mares gestation lasts 11 months and a year is 12 months. Mares do have twins....but rarely and yes embryo transfer is an option, a disgustingly expensive one and one I do not consider to be natural. So in my opinion, embryo transfer doesn't count. It can count in yours, whatever, but to me it does not because that doesn’t happen naturally. And don't get me started on cloning.
> You make it sound like all rescue horses are lost causes. And since when has breeding animals become an art form? It also seems to me like you are suggesting anyone with a "good" dog or horse or cat whatever can breed their animal. Yes this is true; they can breed their pet, but should they? People breeding their animals because they are “good” are what spawned BYB's and puppy mills. Personally I would rather go to a breeder who says their dogs/horses are great and can prove that. And it is possible to keep track of a dog’s family tree and their genetics. I believe most people call that a "blood-line" or in simpler terms a family tree. Most dogs and horses that are pure-bred or champions that come from good reputable breeders will have this or they will at least have the names of the parents and the grandparents of the pup/foal you are considering for purchase. I think my dogs are great, should I breed them absolutly not!!!!


Ya know, I may be totally wrong here and I usually try not to speak for others, but, from everything I have seen nrhareiner post, I have to say that I believe you two are actually on the same page and don't even know it.


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Chloef_2799 said:


> nrhareiner - Several things you said made me a bit upset. I don't own horses and never have. My ultimate ambition is to be a massage therapist for horses and because of that and the fact that I have loved them since I was able to think, I consider myself pretty well educated when it comes to horses. I worked with horses at a therapeutic riding facility for six years and volunteer my time there still (which puts me at 12 years there now) and I also have taken riding lessons since I was 11 and since I am 21 now, that would mean I have been riding for ten years.
> My current job is as a small animal massage therapist, I work in a veterinary practise WITH a veterinarian and my work helps animals to heal after surgery, calm them etc. I AM NOT AN ANIMAL EXPERT AND DO NOT CONSIDER MYSELF ONE!!!! I just want to make that clear. BUT, nrhareiner, you said horses live three times longer or more than dogs....not true. Most horses live to be an average age of 20 to 30 years. Yes there are horses who live to be older than 30, I myself help care for a horse who is 36 years old.....yes that’s right, you heard me 36!!! Dogs live an average of 10 to 13 years I would venture to guess. That can depend on the size of the dog also. Small dogs, like Chihuahuas and yorkies can live to 17 or 18 and big dogs like st. Bernard’s or great danes some times only live to be 7 or 8 years old. There are always exceptions to these examples, yes, but that is the usual norm. Now I don't know about you....but I haven't met to many 50 year old horses lately.
> As for the comment you made about mares being able to give birth to more than one foal a year. That is not possible as a mares gestation lasts 11 months and a year is 12 months. Mares do have twins....but rarely and yes embryo transfer is an option, a disgustingly expensive one and one I do not consider to be natural. So in my opinion, embryo transfer doesn't count. It can count in yours, whatever, but to me it does not because that doesn’t happen naturally. And don't get me started on cloning.
> You make it sound like all rescue horses are lost causes. And since when has breeding animals become an art form? It also seems to me like you are suggesting anyone with a "good" dog or horse or cat whatever can breed their animal. Yes this is true; they can breed their pet, but should they? People breeding their animals because they are “good” are what spawned BYB's and puppy mills. Personally I would rather go to a breeder who says their dogs/horses are great and can prove that. And it is possible to keep track of a dog’s family tree and their genetics. I believe most people call that a "blood-line" or in simpler terms a family tree. Most dogs and horses that are pure-bred or champions that come from good reputable breeders will have this or they will at least have the names of the parents and the grandparents of the pup/foal you are considering for purchase. I think my dogs are great, should I breed them absolutly not!!!!


First if my math skills are correct and the average dog lives to be 10 years old then 30 would be 3 time longer.

Second I do not feel that every rescue horse is a lost couse. I do feel that most equine resuce are not what they should be. I have seen too many horses who have been pulled from places like Shippies who are there b/c they are dangerous and yet the rescues keep trying to save them. No one can handle them they can not be placed in an average home b/c they are not safe.

As for multiple foals. I do belive it is a valuble tool and for the average mare yes it is cost prohibative. However for a top performing mare it is a very small price and I have and will continue to use and own ETs.

As for breeding proven animals. Yes for me that is the only thing I breed. However the average person can not afford one of my foals. So for someone who just wants a horse to trail ride or show 4H or local shows they are not going to come to me for a horse. ALthough mine are great for that I do not know one single person who will pay $50K+ for a trail mount or 4H horse.

As for bloodlines. AKC does not keep trake of get and produce records. With out this info it becomes very hard to determan the best cross and what the animal will produce and in what event. Yes I can trace a dog line back however to get anytihng more than a title is imposible. Try calling AKC and try and get a detailed show record for a dog. It is imposible unless you are the owner. I can pull up a detailed show record for any horse registed with AQHA, NRHA that I want. I can also pull up their get record and it will tell me points earned in what devistion. IT will also tell me the dam of the foal and the dams sire. I can pull up an ownership record of the horse back to the breeder. Non of this can be done with AKC or any other dog registry and to me this is very important info needed when breeding.

There are many things that go into breeding any animal. Even cows/bulls have a way to track what they produce. Every detailed records are kept and they are available to the cow owners so they can make educated breeding desitions.

Breeding is an art form. Health tests, get records, show records, the way the animal looks and moves and performs the menuvers are just tools used to develope the end product. You just hope that when it comes out of the fix that it is how you imagined it will be.

Heidi


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I can't believe I read the WHOLE THING.


----------



## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

Buddy said:


> who else thinks selling pups for mony is wrong cuz well the new owner might of just bought the pup for huntin or just to have someont or something to push around
> and its not nice either


I took my dog hunting today.


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> I read the Orignal post and laughed because this whole thread has got to be a giant joke. No one is THAT stupid...


My comment was swallowed by giant replies.


----------



## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 Quote:
Originally Posted by DOBERMAN_07 
I read the Orignal post and laughed because this whole thread has got to be a giant joke. No one is THAT stupid...



My comment was swallowed by giant replies. 

After thinking about it, I agree with DOBERMAN_07. 
And to nrhareiner, with all the un-wanted animals out there who do not have a home, I won't be breeding ANY of my animals anytime soon. I was trying to make a point. It obviously got lost.


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Chloef_2799 said:


> And to nrhareiner, with all the un-wanted animals out there who do not have a home, I won't be breeding ANY of my animals anytime soon. I was trying to make a point. It obviously got lost.


It is great that are thinking about what to and not to breed. I would be nice if more people did that.

I personally breed b/c I can not afford to buy what I bred and there is a very storng market for this leval of animal. Not many people can afford what I breed and/or do not have the leval of mares I have. This is why I breed over by. A rescue horse for the most part will not fit my needs. I do have seval rescue dogs and have been a foster home for the county I live it. Same with the cats I have. All rescues. However my show dogs are from proven lines and if at some point they proven themselves breeding worthy then yes I will breed them. 

Heidi


----------



## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

nrhareiner - I don't know to much about reining but I did see a man from my area who breeds and trains reining horses do a demonstration at a small rodeo hosted at his farm a few months ago. I thought it was incredible personally! He told us a little bit about the training process as well. I ride english, but would love to learn western style, the problem is there are not many people around my area that teach using western style methods. I will agree with you though, people who are looking for a good 4H horse or a trail horse or even just a companion don't want to spend alot of money.


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Chloef_2799 said:


> nrhareiner - I don't know to much about reining but I did see a man from my area who breeds and trains reining horses do a demonstration at a small rodeo hosted at his farm a few months ago. I thought it was incredible personally! He told us a little bit about the training process as well. I ride english, but would love to learn western style, the problem is there are not many people around my area that teach using western style methods. I will agree with you though, people who are looking for a good 4H horse or a trail horse or even just a companion don't want to spend alot of money.


There are so many different types of riding out there. I really enjoy reining. Several of my horses are cutting bred which I enjoy however the cost of training a cutter and keeping cattle to work the horse on is prohibative for me.

I do alot of shooting at H/J shows, Dressage shows, speed events, and reining and many other type of events along with several differnt types of dog shows/events. I enjoy watch them all as you can learn from each type of disapline and can work it into what you do. I use a lot of differnt types of dressage training on my reiners. Really helps.

You should look at some of the reining videos out. They are very informative and the info in most of them can be very helpful no matter what disapline you ride. I give a 4H clinic on reining every few years. I tell them even if they never run a reining patern that what I am showing them can help with their horses as the idea of reining is for the horse to be willingly guided. Must say those 35 foot sliding stops are a blast then the power of the rollback and blast out of that into a lope. Ha can not waight for spring.

There really are many things I have found that cross over between horse and dogs, cats too to some extent. Tought one of my cats to play dead this summer. Now that is funny. I use a lot of the same training principles and techneques on both with great sucess.

Anyway enjoy riding and playing with all your animals. I know I do what it is not -4f.

Heidi


----------



## Macky (Feb 12, 2007)

*tulip*,
I think if they don't meet the breed standard the proper thing to do is sell it for less (pet quality) than a potential show quality dog and make sure it is sold under a spay/neuter contract and of course taking all the precautions of selling to a responcible buyer. 

My opinion, any breeding should be responcible following the all the guidelines of good breeding (too many to list here). There are good sites on the internet. Here is one from AKC
http://www.akc.org/breeders/resp_breeding/index.cfm

There were many posters with good advice. One pops out at me. *DogAdvocat * had many good points! And in my opinion responcible breeding is pretty much the hobby of a passionate lover of the breed who is in it for the betterment of the breed, not the money because from talking to responcible breeders they have found themselves more in debt than profit from their breeding. 
I agree 100% with those who say if you are going to charge for the dog the odds of the buyer being a responcible dog owner is much higher. 

*Buddy*, even rescues charge for adoption. To offset the cost of caring for the dog while in rescue plus if the buyer can afford the dog he or she will probably be able to afford it's care. Listen with an open mind, you will learn much.


----------



## iluvdoxies (Feb 15, 2007)

drfong said:


> Hi, I dont' really know why I'm getting in to this but here it goes anyway. Why would you think that someone shouldn't be allowed to make a living doing something the love and care about. I don't know to many good breeders who are getting rich selling their dogs, but why shouldn't they make some money. Not just cover expenses, but profit. There is alot of time and effort that goes into good breeding. Would you devote lots of your time, energy and money into something and not expect some compensation. I don't think so. I know by the post and first responses that kids posted this, but let me say one day you will want a job. I only hope it is something you love the way reputable breeders love their dogs and breed.


I agree with what you are saying.....there is alot of work and time put into having puppies. If you care about the breed and want to make sure that the person buying the dog is safe, you provide papers, health check and etc. This all costs money. Sometimes the mother requires extra care during her pregnancy to ensure the puppies are healthy when they arrive....this can be costly! So, when all is said and done the person who is responisble to deliver and get good homes for these puppies is putting out money, not making money. Puppies are like babies, they need to be cared for, health checks, shots, food, water, and provided a good home....no different for puppies. If people did not sell puppies how would you all have one???? If you just gave puppies away and did not ensure their well being......what kind of dogs would be available???? Think about these things next time you think that people just sell puppies for profit, because by the time they do all the things required, they really do not make money.


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Selling puppies for a high price does not only give the breeder profit, but stacks the odds towards the dog having a better life. I cannot image throwing over a $1000 dollars to the street. Its an incentive to make my relationship with the animal work out.


----------



## iluvdoxies (Feb 15, 2007)

DOBERMAN-07 not being a dog snob....in fact I have 4 dogs and luv them all. I never said that the more you pay for a dog makes you get along better with them. Yes, some of the prices people ask are high. But, asking a little something for a dog is not wrong. In regards to you saying "Selling puppies for a high price does not only give the breeder profit, but stacks the odds towards the dog having a better life" is far from true. Not everyone who sells puppies asks a fortune for them. And I don't understand where you get that determines the kind of life a dog has. Then the same would go for a free dog or a cheap dog. Because people would just go get a dog and later decide they did not want it or care about it. Where most people who are going to pay for a dog or puppy usually think about the purchase, before just buying or deciding on taking on the responsibility. To each his opinion, but this is mine.


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

iluvdoxies said:


> DOBERMAN-07 not being a dog snob....in fact I have 4 dogs and luv them all. I never said that the more you pay for a dog makes you get along better with them. Yes, some of the prices people ask are high. But, asking a little something for a dog is not wrong. In regards to you saying "Selling puppies for a high price does not only give the breeder profit, but stacks the odds towards the dog having a better life" is far from true. Not everyone who sells puppies asks a fortune for them. And I don't understand where you get that determines the kind of life a dog has. Then the same would go for a free dog or a cheap dog. Because people would just go get a dog and later decide they did not want it or care about it. Where most people who are going to pay for a dog or puppy usually think about the purchase, before just buying or deciding on taking on the responsibility. To each his opinion, but this is mine.


I honestly think we are on the same side lol. If you would read my replies throughout this thread, you will understand that I see nothing wrong with selling dogs for profit (assuming they are healthy, have good genes, etc). All I meant to say in my previous statement is that people who pay a lot for a dog will be more hasitant to give it to a shelter than someone who was given the dog for free. Now dont get me wrong: I think there are plenty of good people out there who will never get rid of their pet no matter what happens, and I think thats great. I also think that if you pay a lot for a dog and the dog is a bit harder to train, you will not say "Im giving up, lets give it away". That thought will run a lot less in the minds of people who paid a lot for their dogs. Hell, I think mutts should cost over a $1000 too. Then only people who are commited to owning the pet through good and bad will get the animal.


----------



## Springerlover (Jan 13, 2007)

The only reason a person would think that charging or a dog or any other thing, animal or mineral, is wrong, simply means they don't have the money to buy one. The only time I have had people say things like " why do you charge so much for a dog?" are the ones who can not afford one. If they cannot afford to pay 500-600$ for the dog, then what makes me think they can afford to pay for vet bills or quality dog food? People who are serious about having a dog should have to pay for one, if they can not afford the purchase price, they can not afford the dog. 

I have three horses and bought every one of them, some I had to safe for years first to purchase the horse and enought money to care for them daily. Dogs are no different. 

The main reason my puppies are sold with a no questions asked return for the life of the dog, is if an owner runs into finacial problems and can no longer care for the dog, it always has a home to come back to.


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

I do not find the argurment if you can not afford the purchase price you can not afford the animal to be flawed.

I too own many dogs and horses. I breed and show the horses and show a couple of the dogs. I could never afford to buy the horses I have especally the one mare I have. I got her as my payment for helping a friend sell a coulple horses. She was worth about $25K at that time as a 2yo. Now 3 years latter with training and showing she is worth about $75K. I could never afford to buy that horse now or then she was basically given to me. However I can afford to feed a horse and all that goes into keeping them breeding them training them and showing. Cost me about $200/year/horse to keep a horse. This is the case with just about every horse I own. I got them for a good price as I bought them as prospects and then put the money into them each month. Easyer then coming up with the lump sum for a trained finished horse. Now I will say that my horses have all paid for them selves and I have no out of pocket money in any of them. 

This is the same with one of my show pups. I could never have afforded to pay her purchase price. However I got her as a christmas present from a good friend of mine who is a breeder and every dog she breeds are champions. However I can afford her feed, up keep and training and showing to prover her out.

So by the reasoning that if you can not afford to buy you can not afford to own is a bogus argument in my mind. 

Cost no more to keep a champions then it does a rescue. Same with horses. Cost no more to keep a top bred, proven show horse then it does the puck who would rather kick, bite, and touse you off every chance they get.

Heidi


----------



## GSDBulldog (Feb 27, 2007)

A good breeder does not breed to make money. To be honest, most good breeders will loose money every breeding they make. They are about preserving and bettering their breed of choice, and profiting off of your stock is the lowest of the low. 

Here is a good article, "So You Except to Make Money Breeding", http://game-dog.com/forums/article.php?a=124

Many good breeders often do give dogs away for free, it is called "farming out". It is usually done with close friends, on the basis that the dog will be worked and/or shown. Good, reputable breeders do not care about the money. They care about the dogs.

As far as people caring more for dogs they paid top dollar for, tell that to this girl:

(image is large so I will provide a link)
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q127/hapbtr/Sylvannis017.jpg

A purebred American Pit Bull Terrier puppy, purchased from a backyard breeder for $2500. Dumped on our rescues doorstep.


----------



## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

Springerlover said:


> The only reason a person would think that charging or a dog or any other thing, animal or mineral, is wrong, simply means they don't have the money to buy one. The only time I have had people say things like " why do you charge so much for a dog?" are the ones who can not afford one. If they cannot afford to pay 500-600$ for the dog, then what makes me think they can afford to pay for vet bills or quality dog food? People who are serious about having a dog should have to pay for one, if they can not afford the purchase price, they can not afford the dog.
> 
> 
> The main reason my puppies are sold with a no questions asked return for the life of the dog, is if an owner runs into finacial problems and can no longer care for the dog, it always has a home to come back to.


Thats kinda harsh. If you cant afford the purchase price of the dog you shouldnt have one at all? 
I say all the time, especially in BYB and designer situations, why people would charge that rediculous price for a dog.
Doesnt mean I cant afford it, by all means. Its just well. In the end the saying " A fool and their money are soon departed" rings true. I would never pay stupid amounts of money for a dog, as said earlier, medical care can be expensive enough as it is. The best bred dogs or mix breed "free" dogs surgeries, vaccinations, hip replacements all cost the same. There is no discrimination.
Its great that you have a no questions asked policy on the return of your dogs, as you said, financial problems can hit at any time and to anyone.


----------



## GSDBulldog (Feb 27, 2007)

Funny, at least in my breed, it is the backyard breeder's & puppy peddlers charging the most for dogs & puppies. The reputable ones rarely charge more than $800, and that is for a dog straight from working stock.

This dog:










A terrible, poorly bred representative of the American Pit Bull Terrier is for sale for $16,000. Yes, sixteen-thousand dollars. I kid you not.


----------



## pam36 (Mar 9, 2007)

I Always gotten Dogs For Free


----------



## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

GSDBulldog said:


> Funny, at least in my breed, it is the backyard breeder's & puppy peddlers charging the most for dogs & puppies. The reputable ones rarely charge more than $800, and that is for a dog straight from working stock.
> 
> This dog:
> 
> ...


Its disgusting..I wish the government or authorities would get off their azzes and start doing something about irresponsible breeders and puppymills..they're the root of this whole ordeal as it is...homeless dogs, inbreeding, etc...

Jail time and high high high fines would be my solution LOL


----------



## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Pitbull said:


> Its disgusting..I wish the government or authorities would get off their azzes and start doing something about irresponsible breeders and puppymills..they're the root of this whole ordeal as it is...homeless dogs, inbreeding, etc...
> 
> Jail time and high high high fines would be my solution LOL


Yep they can do what the city of Toledo did. Say you can not own more then 1 pitbull or simular breed. If you do then they will be taken and put down. Boy dose that not sound like a good thing?

Getting government involved with much of anything is a bad idea.

Heidi


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

selling dogs for money is a good thing only if its a pure breed. I worked for a Chinese Shar Pei breeder for 4 years. Shes been in the business for 20 years. she can charge $2,000 for a really good show type quality dog and people will pay for it. why do you charge for that kind of money? so that people who just want a dog and dont really care dont get that dog. we want people who really care and can afford to take care of that dog to have a dog. its the people who dont care and just want a dog to chain in the back yard for security purposes that should have dogs. you sell them for money so they dont end up in a bad home.


----------



## Pitbull (Sep 24, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> Yep they can do what the city of Toledo did. Say you can not own more then 1 pitbull or simular breed. If you do then they will be taken and put down. Boy dose that not sound like a good thing?
> 
> Getting government involved with much of anything is a bad idea.
> 
> Heidi


Its disgusting how people have chosen such azzholes to run the city...we can't even turn to our government to make the right decisions anymore...they're usually the ones causing the problems for dog sakes..ugh...I hear ya


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Pitbull said:


> Its disgusting how people have chosen such azzholes to run the city...we can't even turn to our government to make the right decisions anymore...they're usually the ones causing the problems for dog sakes..ugh...I hear ya


Its funny how you call politicians "people". Whats next, lawyers?


----------



## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> Its funny how you call politicians "people". Whats next, lawyers?


Hahahah..


----------



## wimersweiners (Jan 11, 2007)

*Wow this thread is still going from a couple of weeks ago.
I was going to start a new one, but this seems to fit my thoughts. Selling puppies is wrong....hmm. Well, you cannot keep them all, so you have to sell them. BUT...if professional breeders want to really keep their specific breed safe, better,and promoted, then why do they ask so much for puppies under a spay/neuter contract?
When we were looking for puppies of various breeds, a few years ago, we encountered things like this:
Giant Schnauzer...We found a BYB in Kentucky that had pups for $600.00. Admittedly they were not champions, but we could afford the price. Locally we found two breeders whose price was 1200.00 with limited registration. Now that fellow in Kentucky is starting to look pretty good. My thought was, if I am going to pay 1200.00 for a pup, no one will tell me what I can do with it.
My point is, if the breeder would turn his pet puppies loose at a more reasonable price then maybe the BYB's would loose their market. If you have show dogs then sell THEM at a large price , befitting their quality.
German Shepherd... A breeder was promoting " plush" shepherds as an original form of the working shepherd. I understand that long hair or plush are not desirable in the show ring. This breeder was asking 1500.00 and up for dogs that do not even qualify as standard.
Dachshunds...There are so many mini doxies on the internet you could probably give every person in China one and have some left over. Professional breeders start at 550.00 up to 1200.00. Not too bad on the low end, for restricted papers, but now comes the BYB with dogs for 300.00 to 400.00 with full registration. Here is your market again.
I would say 99% of the people will not show. So why not lower to market price your pet puppies to take the market away from your BYB's And why breed so many puppies....every breed. As a friend told me about our snake raising. " They are not like oil or gas which is consumed...you have to have the people to buy them. I do not know what the answer is. All I know is there sure are a lot of poor unwanted dogs around. *


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wimersweiners said:


> * I do not know what the answer is. *


The answer is the buyer needs to do their homework. If they stp looking at the final price and look at the margin, more people would buy the responsible way. But most people don't do their homework to begin with. 

IMO, there needs to be laws against selling puppies for free. Free puppies make great bait for dog fighting, not to mention the other types of doggy crimes that can be committed with free puppies.


----------



## siberian husky lover12 (Nov 17, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> The answer is the buyer needs to do their homework.
> 
> 
> I totaly aggree with curb. People do need to look at breed standards and they need to do reserch to see what dog fits there liflestyle. i did. I have two VERY entergetic dogs and they fit mine perfectly because i too am very entergetic. They are my runing companiaons and i run everyday so they are perfect. In other things as well. And i got my pup from some dumb people. See her parents were not spayed or nuterd and she is not a purbred dog. Her mom jist got pregnet with the male that was in the backyard with her. And that is how i got my pup. But selling pups is not wrong if they are purbred and i aggree with other people about haveing to pay for food and feed. I hope when you get older you will see, Buddy. And even though in a few months i am going to be a teen, i still except bieng called a "kid". Because 11 is a kid. It sure isnt an adult.


----------



## wimersweiners (Jan 11, 2007)

I still say buyers doing homework VS cost of pup is an idealistic answer to the problem. When society is becoming so consumer oriented, the feeling is always...shop around for the best deal...and if the puppy mills and back yard breeders are out there....then sorry to say they will have customers. I did not say give pups away, but if people are really interested in a certain breed and they come looking to a professional breeder, then do not push them into the waiting arms of a newspaper ad.
Just my opinion.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wimersweiners said:


> I did not say give pups away, but if people are really interested in a certain breed and they come looking to a professional breeder, then do not push them into the waiting arms of a newspaper ad.


Buying a dog and doing your homework does not begin nor end in a newspaper ad. There are many professional breeders, but not professional breeders are equal. One species of the prefessional breeder is the reputable breeder. A reputable breeder does not advertise because they have as their name implies a "reputation". The reputable breeder is a rare species, and it takes a lot of homework to know where to find one in nature. 


Where good dogs come from. - Dog Forums - all breed dog forum


----------



## Mr. N (Feb 20, 2007)

I completely disagree with the statement "selling puppies is wrong." I mean... if people didn't sell puppies, then I wouldn't have my perfect dog right now.

I bought Dübeee (my dog) about 4 years ago. She cost me $10. Not only did I buy the cutest puppy in the world, but I also put a huge smile on the neighbor kid's face when I handed her the 10 dollar bill.

Ok... say the neighbors (or anyone else for that matter) don't sell their dogs. What do you think would happen? We'd have a ton of strays running around. We'd have people dumping the puppies in the middle of nowhere or in dumpsters or in rivers just to get rid of them.

People sell their puppies because they don't want to take care of 20+ dogs.

I really don't understand why selling a puppy would be some terrible, immoral act.


----------



## RenaRose (Mar 22, 2007)

But if you give puppies away the person taking that puppy without any intention of being a good dog owner. The could just keep the puppy untill it grow up then dump it somewhere b/c they don't want to have the responsiblity of a dog anymore. Breeders sell their dogs not just to pay for the process of breeding but also to know the person they're puppy is going to is willing to give that puppy a good home. I someone has money invested in something it usually gives them a better insentive to take good care of that something. 

You do have a piont though. If puppies could not be sold for money then there would be less irrisponsible breeders in the world. But I don't think giving puppies away is the answer. All our good breeders would go broke, and then what would become of our dog shows and purebreeds?


----------



## ilovemychihuahua (Oct 8, 2006)

U know they don't all do that. Some might sell them because they probaly can't afford to take care of them.


----------



## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

I don't even see HOW this could be an argument. Selling puppies is NOT wrong. You can be more specific, "Selling puppies for the purpose of earning money is wrong." Yes, puppy mills are wrong. Selling puppies is NOT wrong. If nobody sold puppies, there wouldn't be any well-bred dogs out there.


----------



## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I have a litter coming up in about 5 weeks..... and every one of my puppies is sold, I am keeping one as I only breed when I am planning to keep a puppy and every one of the litter is spoken for at this point, with many of the people on my waiting list will have waited close to 11 mos. by the time the puppy is ready to go home in mid july..... I keep my retrievers for 10 weeks because it is better for them.... but the point here is that I have two puppies going to the midwest to working homes I have a couple pet pups going to various parts of the country and I have NOT advertised, nor have I ever advertised. People are referred to me by other people and by other breeders, some people I meet at shows and some people I meet at performance events.... 

I NEVER advertise in the paper and I challenge you to find my breed advertised in the paper..... seldom if never are dogs of my breed found in shelters. We as the stewards of the breed are very careful about who gets these puppies, how they are bred and how they are placed. 

Selling pups is not wrong..... trying to earn your living from selling pups is wrong...... and there is a big difference...... 

I did make money on my last litter...... $14 I would hardly call that a windfall. 
s


----------



## larryb008 (Apr 17, 2007)

tirluc said:


> what are you supposed to sell them for?....peanuts?.....
> 
> _BREEDING_ dogs for money is wrong, but giving pups away are alot of times just signing their death warrant (labs for research are always looking for that inexpensive/free dog/pup).....


your right because if someone is spending hundreds or even thousands on a puppy they have done there research and are going to be better owners


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

larryb008 said:


> your right because if someone is spending hundreds or even thousands on a puppy they have done there research and are going to be better owners


I'm not so sure that how much someone is willing or able to spend on a dog is an indication of how good an owner he will be. 

On the other hand, I do think that a lot of people with not too much disposable income tend to underestimate how much it costs to keep a dog.


----------



## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

RonE said:


> I'm not so sure that how much someone is willing or able to spend on a dog is an indication of how good an owner he will be.
> 
> On the other hand, I do think that a lot of people with not too much disposable income tend to underestimate how much it costs to keep a dog.


I have mixed emotions on this..... while I think there are many people who don't have alot of money to spend and make very very good owners. There is also the matter of in this society if it costs we as a society value it more. That really is a sad situation but in some respects I think it is true..... and I do agree with you Ron that people underestimate the costs of a dog.... they think shots and routine vet care and food and such.... they don't consider boarding or emergencies. 

I also wonder about the folks that when confronted with an emergency figure that the dog didn't cost them anything so why pay the thousand bucks for the surgery or whatever. 

I think that the people here on this board are the exception by virtue of the fact that they come here and are interested in dogs and such and if we were to ask this crowd of course we would hear alot of no's that is not the case but this is a select group of people who sought this place out. I am not so sure that in the general public the responses would be the same. All it takes is a conversation with a vet and they can tell you how many people don't want to or can't afford even a slight illness and how many dogs are euthanized because of that. 

I don't think someone who spends what my puppies cost is a better owner exactly..... I have had many people call me who think that because they can plunk down there $1500 bucks they should get a puppy no questions asked (I set them straight)...... but I do think that when someone either has to save and work for their puppy..... they value it more..... or when they can pay the cost of a puppy at least there is some reasonable assumption that if an emergency happens they can afford to take care of it. They can afford the supplies and the obedience school and can take care of what they need to financially. 

I don't think they love their dogs more..... (maybe they do) I just think they are in a position that if circumstances create a situation which requires a cash infusion they have the money to take care of it....... it stinks but in our stratified capitalist society that is how it goes. 

That having been said..... I know many people whose dogs get what they need before the people do..... but of course those are my friends and it is the reason we are friends.... because we value the same things..... 

like I said.... mixed emotions.... 
s


----------



## FranMan (Jan 1, 2007)

This thread is still going.. hahaha


----------



## Dutchie (Apr 18, 2007)

hmmm.... Aside from Buddy's rambling disorganized posts I can only gather that he just doesn't have the ability to understand logic. Sorry but dogs shouldn't be sold for money??? Are you going to tell me next that grocery stores shouldn't charge for food? A good breeder should ask about the home and get refferences most do this. When I use the term breeder I do not mean BYB's or puppymills. Most breeders like to where their puppies are going. Even if they gave them away for free that doen't mean puppy is in a safe enviroment. So I don't understand the argument about cost. Are you just pissed you can't afford a dog? Even when I adopted my dogs I still had to pay for them. Its all for the same reason, wether if you're giving a stray medical care or breeding a dog you are incuring costs. We don't want all those deticated breeders to go bankrupt because of their love for the breed. One last comment about hunting, some breeds are meant to hunt it is their job it is what they enjoy doing. I don't understand why you go from someone buying a dog just to beat it up to being used for hunting. THat is unless you meant people accually hunt dogs. Although I have never heard of anyone buying a dog, letting it go, and then proceed to hunt it.


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

FranMan said:


> This thread is still going.. hahaha


I know... ROFL


----------

