# Does Everyone Have To Start Somewhere?



## FoMoCowboy (Apr 6, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> When you buy a puppy from Petland, you are not "rescuing" it. You are lining the pockets of the Puppy Mills and encouraging them to continue.
> 
> My additions:
> 
> Impulse buying from a Back Yard Breeder is a chance to get a dog that is not healthy (disease, genetics, temperment or all of these) and keeps people breeding dogs for money in business.


I'm confused....where is one supposed to get a puppy then?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*

A reputable breeder, a rescue or a shelter.


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## sarahspins (Apr 6, 2009)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



FoMoCowboy said:


> I'm confused....where is one supposed to get a puppy then?


Why be set on adopting a super young puppy? They don't stay that way forever.. adopt a dog because you want a _dog_. Puppies are only tiny and cute for a few months at most, and come with a lot of issues to deal with that an older puppy or young dog usually doesn't.


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## FoMoCowboy (Apr 6, 2009)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



RonE said:


> A reputable breeder, a rescue or a shelter.


oh man....i know i shouldnt write this but i'm gonna anyways.


how is someone supposed to become a ''reputable breeder'' without first starting out as a ''backyard breeder''? everyone has to start somewhere, if every job opening demanded ''at least 5 years experience'' how would ANYONE ever get a job?

okay, i'm sorry, i did read posts explaining that backyard breeders are a touchy subject around here, but i had to ask.....i'll be a good boy from here on out!


I need someone to PM me so i dont get into trouble, i guess i need ''enlightened'' on why backyard breeders are evil. I've seen some VERY good dogs come from some guys' backyard. and no, i've never bred any dogs myself, i'm just curious 



sarahspins said:


> Why be set on adopting a super young puppy? They don't stay that way forever.. adopt a dog because you want a _dog_. Puppies are only tiny and cute for a few months at most, and come with a lot of issues to deal with that an older puppy or young dog usually doesn't.


I'm sorry, i never meant to put off like i was ''set'' on a puppy, or a ''super young puppy''

But i can think of a few reasons why *I* would like a puppy completely aside from the ''cute factor''

-Bonding reasons

-Training reasons

-detrimental habits are easier to never let start than they are to fix or stop them in a dog that has already developed them

but i can see your point, its definately less ''headache'' to start out with a grown dog, i wont argue with that but I dont really appreciate words being put in my mouth, and then chewed out by the person who put them there.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*

I've moved these posts away from the sticky so that the discussion can continue. Stickies get close when they veer off-topic.

When it comes to breeding, nobody has to start somewhere. Most of us start by spaying or neutering our dogs - specifically so we don't have litters of possibly unwanted dogs.

I may have missed it, but I don't recall anyone saying that backyard breeders are "evil" - just poor places to get a dog. I have some friends and relatives who are, or have been, backyard breeders and, like most BYBs, they love their dogs and believe they are sharing that love by selling puppies. They aren't evil - just misguided.

Puppy mills are evil.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

yes.

the good ones start by learning. learning the breed standard, learning about genetics, vet pre and post natal care, training, and much much more.

then they branch out, learn how to spot a well built, proper and healthy animal. they handle dogs in competition events. they find an exemplary dog with good ofa, cerf, pennhip etc

they find a mentor. someone to guide them and to turn to for advice.

that's the basics anyway


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



FoMoCowboy said:


> how is someone supposed to become a ''reputable breeder'' without first starting out as a ''backyard breeder''? everyone has to start somewhere, if every job opening demanded ''at least 5 years experience'' how would ANYONE ever get a job?
> 
> -Bonding reasons
> 
> ...


I'm just going to respond to a few of your points. I don't breed and have no interest in breeding, I've read too much and it scares the bejeebers outta me! I have two shelties, say I'd like to become a breeder. My job would be to research the breed intensively. Then, I have to have a female dog that is the ultimate in shelties. Correct everything. She goes to the vets, gets put through all the necessary testing to make sure she is correct. This includes anything that is important for said breed. In order to get this dog, I'd have to purchase her from a reputable breeder, who I have thoroughly researched as my hopeful dog's line is clean of health and temperment. If I'm actually still interested in breeding, I have to find a mentor to help me. Then, I have to find a male dog with correct everything as well. Say I do this, find the male and a breeding takes place, I have to be ready for a ton of responsibility. One never knows if something can go wrong during the pregnancy or the birth. I have to be ready for that, emotionally and financially. Once the puppies are born, I have to find homes for them. Ideally, before a reputable, responsible breeder has a litter, they already have homes for most of the puppies. Finding a home may sound like an easy thing to do but it's not. You want THE BEST home for your dog. You don't want to ship them, you want to meet the prospective owners. They want to come and meet you. If you can see their home, you do that. If someone refuses to show you their home, you refuse them a puppy. You have them fill out the contract your mentor has helped you to draw up. You call their references, if they have dogs, you call the vet. You make sure their dogs have regular vet care. When you know they will be good owners for your puppy, you take a deposit from them and you make sure they know that if for any reason they cannot keep the dog, you will take the dog back, anytime, no questions asked. You are responsible for all the puppies for their entire lives because you brought them into the world. 
As far as young puppies vs older puppies/adults/seniors, let me say that the bonding thing is crap. Really, it is. I have had three dogs come here as 9 week old puppies and I've had others come to me at age 7months, 14months, 7yrs and 11yrs. I've bonded with some of the older ones more than my current youngest dog, who is now 3 and came here at 9 weeks. 
Training? What kind of training? Puppies come completely untrained, it's very easy to find a dog at a rescue/shelter/private owner already trained, both for housebreaking and obedience. 
Detrimental habits? Yep, some dogs have them but you dont' know what you have, with a young pup or older dog, til you own him/her. 
I'm not telling you not to get a young puppy but they're not all they're cracked up to be, always. I personally enjoy adopting older to senior dogs...the joy they bring me is unimaginable. The same is true for some puppies. My younger sheltie is 9yrs old, he's been here since 9 weeks and I can't imagine life without him. My other 3yr old dog, not so much, some days!


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## sarahspins (Apr 6, 2009)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



FoMoCowboy said:


> how is someone supposed to become a ''reputable breeder'' without first starting out as a ''backyard breeder''? everyone has to start somewhere, if every job opening demanded ''at least 5 years experience'' how would ANYONE ever get a job?


I don't honestly think _any_ reputable breeders have started out as BYB's.... a BYB is someone who decides since they have two 'pedigreed' (and occasionally "purbred but no papers") dogs they should have a litter (or 10) to make some money. They're not really about the betterment of the breed or finding the most appropriate homes for those pups, all they consider is dollar signs (and completely miss that it typically costs MORE money to breed and raise a litter of puppies if you do it right, than you'll get back from it).

There are definitely plenty of reputable "small" breeders out there... but they are highly involved in their breeds (usually for at least several years), active in showing and finishing their dogs, and usually do some sort of performance (agility, rally-o, obedience, etc) with them too... and when/if they decide to breed, they spend a lot of time researching (not just "how to breed", but pedigrees, the health of the dogs in the line, and how related dogs have turned out, plus they do health checks which take time and money), they're not just casual dog owners who decide to have a litter.

Reputable breeders typically not only have homes lined up for the litter before it is born, but often have a waiting list as well - often new breeders considering their FIRST litter will too if they're doing things right. That's really the difference, it's the amount of time and education invested in the process before any breeding is done the distinguishes a BYB from a reputable one... it's not a matter of how long they've been breeding at all. Someone could be a BYB for 20 or 30 years and never be anything more than that.


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## Trixie (Feb 27, 2008)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*

Think of it this way -- a mortgage broker doesn't have to start off in the sub-prime market in order to become a reputable mortgage broker. A newspaper reporter doesn't have to start with a tabloid to become a reputable reporter.

Neither of these things are evil, nor are they necessarily ethical. One does not have to compromise ethics as a backyard breeder in order to become a reputable breeder. In fact, chances are, if one starts as a byb, one will never get to become a reputable breeder.

I think the problem is that there are so many barriers (mostly financial) to becoming a reputable breeder, that many people don't want to go that route. There are also barriers (not just financial, but also in ability to locate the reputable ones) to finding a reputable breeder, that many, many people don't know how to go about doing it.


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*

While I mostly agree with what Trixie said, I tend to attribute a lot of their irresponsible practices to ignorance. That isn't an excuse nor does it make it ok, but I really believe the average byb is acting out of ignorance rather than malice. I don't think it's an informed decision to skimp out and become a byb over a responsible breeder for most folks but rather a lack of knowledge regarding responsible breeding practices. I've patiently explained to more than one person in my life why breeding their dog would be a very bad idea even though they were all good people and thought their dogs were great. Most had either no idea about health testing or were very limited in their knowledge.

I also think ignorance is the same reason the average puppy buyer goes through a byb or pet store rather than a responsible breeder. They don't know what to look for in a breeder and they don't understand why it matters--they got their last dog from a byb or pet store and that worked out fine! Or they love the neighbors dog so of course they want one of her pups! Plus, puppies have magical powers that turn normally rational people's brains to mush and cause them to make stupid decisions without thinking.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

and yet, without bybs and oops litters, there would be no dog ownership in the US.

Reputable breeders, and by that I mean breeders who show and or work their dogs, produce only a small percentage of the 4-6 million puppies needed each year to maintain an adequate dog population.


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## Trixie (Feb 27, 2008)

I've been giving this some thought, and I think it is a lot like the housing market and buying a house and obtaining a mortgage. (and by extention, what led to mass foreclosures and a sinking economy is the same principle that has brought us an overpopulation of dogs and overcrowded rescues)

When you go and purchase a house, you have to look at houses, establish a budget, save a downpayment, inspect the home, apply for a mortgage, sign a contract, make an offer... it's a long process and we don't expect it to be easy. We also don't expect everyone to be able to purchase a house. We don't expect everyone to buy a new house, either. (in fact, most people don't. They buy already existing homes. Well, until about 1996, that is) But are you going to buy a house without knowing what kind of work it will need? Would you buy a house based on appearance alone? 

When shady lenders (with the encouragement of the government) loosened lending requirements and made sub-prime loans to people with less saved and a history of not paying back debts, things went wrong. People bought beyond their means. Sure, some people have not had any problems paying their mortgage on their small income, but many, many people did. Now we are in a mess. We have too many homes and people can't afford to continue living in the ones they had.

People thought they deserved a house at any cost, and there were unethical people out there willing to give them the money.

Like houses, people want dogs. Nothing wrong with that. You can take time and look for the right breed (like looking for houses), find a breeder, ask questions, get health guarentees (similar to a home inspection, in a way) wait for planned litter, place a deposit (down payment) on the dog, sign a contract, and let the breeder pick your dog based on your needs.

When people got impatient, other means were developed that are, in some ways, sinister. A backyard breeder is probably more like the lender who is just excited that they can sell to more people and make more money, where a puppy mill is more like the shady lenders who sold poor people expensive loans. (to extend the analogy, I think of rescues as the equivelent to renters, "oops" litters the equivelent to buying a fixer-upper in a marginal neighborhood, and a reputable breeder like purchasing a new or existing home in a desirable neighborhood of your choice.)

Of course, people need a place to live, so they rent, buy is less desireable neighborhoods, purchase from friends or family. People also get dogs through friends, "oops" litters and rescues, but if you want a new house in desirable neighborhood, you have to take the right steps. If you want a purebred dog to raise from puppyhood, one should take the right steps.

The biggest difference is that a house is a HUGE expense and a dog is pretty small in comparison. But both will have problems down the road, are investments (whether financial or emotional) and should be obtained by putting thought and work into ones decision.

This is long, but I hope it somewhat makes sense.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

KaseyT said:


> and yet, without bybs and oops litters, there would be no dog ownership in the US.
> 
> Reputable breeders, and by that I mean breeders who show and or work their dogs, produce only a small percentage of the 4-6 million puppies needed each year to maintain an adequate dog population.


That's all well and good, and you've expressed that opinion enough times that I know I'm hardly going to change it, but at the VERY least there is no excuse for not doing proper health testing prior to breeding.



Regardless, the way to become a reputable breeder by the standard definition is to choose a breed, research them heavily, meet breeders, owners, and individuals of the breed. Learn the good, the bad, and the ugly of the breed and its history. Establish your network, figure out your goals, find a mentor. It's a long process, which is why for many breeders it's a labor of love.

There's no reason to have "practice" litters en route. In fact, doing so would likely hurt your chances of earning the respect of those who could help you the most.


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

People have started out from pretty much everywhere. No shame in starting from the bottom and working up. If you read back through the history of good breeders, you'll see that a lot of them started out as a BYB, and then they went to a puppy match, kennel, etc and got hooked and that's all she wrote.

I have friends that started out as BYBs and all they bred were sound tempered dogs, in a breed where temperaments were terrible, (they did a good job of it, too) then they got into showing and are now excellent responsible breeders/exhibitors of their breed. Their reps haven't been hurt in the least by what they were.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

txcollies said:


> People have started out from pretty much everywhere. No shame in starting from the bottom and working up. If you read back through the history of good breeders, you'll see that a lot of them started out as a BYB, and then they went to a puppy match, kennel, etc and got hooked and that's all she wrote.
> 
> I have friends that started out as BYBs and all they bred were sound tempered dogs, in a breed where temperaments were terrible, (they did a good job of it, too) then they got into showing and are now excellent responsible breeders/exhibitors of their breed. Their reps haven't been hurt in the least by what they were.


I disagree with you but it may be we have differing opinions on what makes a true BYB. My 9yr old sheltie came from what I call a hobby breeder. She had the female, the dog was her pet, all her dogs, puppies included, were house dogs. They were obviously well loved and cared for but she did no testing, no nothing, she just had a litter or two a year (if memory serves me, she had two females) and advertised in the paper.
I think a BYB is totally different but that's JMO


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

Hobby, BYB I've heard the same thing labeled as both. It just depends on what word you use. 

Alot of people get started by getting an AKC dog, breeding a few litters, find out about showing, go to a show, meet breeders, see some awesome dogs, and etc etc. Nuttin' wrong with that.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

txcollies said:


> Hobby, BYB I've heard the same thing labeled as both. It just depends on what word you use.
> 
> Alot of people get started by getting an AKC dog, breeding a few litters, find out about showing, go to a show, meet breeders, see some awesome dogs, and etc etc. Nuttin' wrong with that.


Well, to me, a BYB is someone that you see on TV on the animal cops shows. Dirty housing, dogs not being socialized, stuff like that. To *me*, they're two different things
Someone getting a dog labeled "AKC", which is any purebred dog, one you can buy from a byb, a hobby breeder and your local pet store, then breeding a few litters, *I* find alot wrong with that and we're just going to disagree on that. I have no issue buying a puppy from a breeder that has good dogs, proven dogs, health checked dogs, heck, that's where my last puppy came from but to have some person who has a purebred dog decide to breed her because they can or because they think they can make money doing so, that's not right, IMO. There's enough dogs that need homes, if puppies are going to be born, I'd rather they'd be brought into the world by someone who has done the research and has a mentor to help them. Again, JMO


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Shaina said:


> but at the VERY least there is no excuse for not doing proper health testing prior to breeding.


Absolutely! There is no excuse - I think breeding without doing the proper health testing is MOST irresponsible.


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## FoMoCowboy (Apr 6, 2009)

InkedMarie said:


> Well, to me, a BYB is someone that you see on TV on the animal cops shows. Dirty housing, dogs not being socialized, stuff like that. To *me*, they're two different things
> Someone getting a dog labeled "AKC", which is any purebred dog, one you can buy from a byb, a hobby breeder and your local pet store, then breeding a few litters, *I* find alot wrong with that and we're just going to disagree on that. I have no issue buying a puppy from a breeder that has good dogs, proven dogs, health checked dogs, heck, that's where my last puppy came from but to have some person who has a purebred dog decide to breed her because they can or because they think they can make money doing so, that's not right, IMO. There's enough dogs that need homes, if puppies are going to be born, I'd rather they'd be brought into the world by someone who has done the research and has a mentor to help them. Again, JMO



Thats the way that the forum makes ''backyard breeders'' sound, like ANYONE who doesnt have dogs that cost over $2,000 needs to have the animal planet ''animal rescues'' shows come down to their rottweilers stuck in bird cages, used only for breeding (thats why i said you people make it sound EVIL)..... i've known PLENTY of people (AND I'M SURE MY DOG THAT CAME FROM THE SHELTER WAS A BACKYARD DOG, SHE'S THE BEST BEHAVED DOG I'VE EVER SEEN!!!) and i've purchased both of my puppies from ''backyard breeders'' who make SURE (even go so far as to come visit your house!) that their puppies go to a good home, and they make sure that they are plenty old and up to date on shots and make sure that the pups dont have any ''fears'' (loud noises, stairs, things like that), which is something that i gaurantee NO ''puppy mill'' does. they may make sure that they're good to go and wont die within a month, and ship them off to make the money.


I WILL ALWAYS BUY FROM ''BACKYARD BREEDERS''! I WILL NEVER PAY OVER $200 FOR A DOG.

IF THE DOG WAS BORN IN A BIRDCAGE, IT GIVES ME THAT MUCH MORE INCENTIVE TO RESCUE IT!

at any rate, i think i'm done with the forum, i dont like the ''vibe'' around here, reviewing the threads it seems the majority of the members are just waiting to jump down someones throat (not mine, thats just the impression i've got from reading other peoples posts), and i came here for positive feedback and other reasons than to be bitched at, and listen to others bitch at everyone else and act like they're the greatest dog owners on the planet and do no wrong, and anyone less is the worlds worst threat to any dog within a 500 mile radius. i know that everyone on the other forums i belong to are MUCH MUCH friendlier than the general ''pupulation'' around here.

so dont feel compelled to respond to this, i probably will never see it. unless you just HAVE to release your urge to BITCH, that seems to be the trend around here.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I honestly see only one person 'bitching' but that's just me. I see other people answering the question. You just don't like their answer.


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## FoMoCowboy (Apr 6, 2009)

InkedMarie said:


> Well, to me, a BYB is someone that you see on TV on the animal cops shows. Dirty housing, dogs not being socialized, stuff like that. To *me*, they're two different things
> Someone getting a dog labeled "AKC", which is any purebred dog, one you can buy from a byb, a hobby breeder and your local pet store, then breeding a few litters, *I* find alot wrong with that and we're just going to disagree on that. I have no issue buying a puppy from a breeder that has good dogs, proven dogs, health checked dogs, heck, that's where my last puppy came from but to have some person who has a purebred dog decide to breed her because they can or because they think they can make money doing so, that's not right, IMO. There's enough dogs that need homes, if puppies are going to be born, I'd rather they'd be brought into the world by someone who has done the research and has a mentor to help them. Again, JMO



Thats the way that the forum makes ''backyard breeders'' sound, like ANYONE who doesnt have dogs that cost over $2,000 needs to have the animal planet ''animal rescues'' shows come down to their rottweilers stuck in bird cages, used only for breeding (thats why i said you people make it sound EVIL)..... i've known PLENTY of people (AND I'M SURE MY DOG THAT CAME FROM THE SHELTER WAS A BACKYARD DOG, SHE'S THE BEST BEHAVED DOG I'VE EVER SEEN!!!) and i've purchased both of my puppies from ''backyard breeders'' who make SURE (even go so far as to come visit your house!) that their puppies go to a good home, and they make sure that they are plenty old and up to date on shots and make sure that the pups dont have any ''fears'' (loud noises, stairs, things like that), which is something that i gaurantee NO ''puppy mill'' does. they may make sure that they're good to go and wont die within a month, and ship them off to make the money.


I WILL ALWAYS BUY FROM ''BACKYARD BREEDERS''! I WILL NEVER PAY OVER $200 FOR A DOG.

IF THE DOG WAS BORN IN A BIRDCAGE, IT GIVES ME THAT MUCH MORE INCENTIVE TO RESCUE IT!

at any rate, i think i'm done with the forum, i dont like the ''vibe'' around here, reviewing the threads it seems the majority of the members are just waiting to jump down someones throat (not mine, thats just the impression i've got from reading other peoples posts), and i came here for positive feedback and other reasons than to be bitched at, and listen to others bitch at everyone else and act like they're the greatest dog owners on the planet and do no wrong, and anyone less is the worlds worst threat to any dog within a 500 mile radius. i know that everyone on the other forums i belong to are MUCH MUCH friendlier than the general ''pupulation'' around here. i've seen about 6 people in browsing this forum in 4 days who joined, made 2 posts on the day they joined, and never logged in again...over a year later. then i read the thread, and its clear why, everyone is making them feel terrible about not being ''born knowing everything'' like everyone else is around here. i'm now one of them, i think i have what? less than 10 posts easy, and i'll NEVER log on again...

You people as dog owners should be ashamed for having so much hatred in your hearts.

so dont feel compelled to respond to this, i probably will never see it. unless you just HAVE to release your urge to BITCH, that seems to be the trend around here.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> and yet, without bybs and oops litters, there would be no dog ownership in the US.
> 
> Reputable breeders, and by that I mean breeders who show and or work their dogs, produce only a small percentage of the 4-6 million puppies needed each year to maintain an adequate dog population.


Yeah, cause we're SOO hurting for more puppies. God forbid less dogs are put down in shelters because of over population and idiot owners. 

I wish only the small percentage of people who could get those dogs had dogs. It's a huge responsibility. Dogs are not toys, mp3 players or laptops. They are not a commodity that needs to be pumped out, tossed away and recycled. They are living beings that require an actual lifetime of care. The supply needs to be much much less than it is right now.


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## jbsmomto1 (Mar 7, 2009)

a rep breeder, is one who carefully selects 2 of the same breed dogs, he/she will pick the finest specicmens, the 2 that will better the breed in the long run. They will take both to teh vet for a through once over, get them tested for eyes, hips and anything else that runs in the breed. He will also make sure that both are suitable breeding ages. He will be prepared and willing to spend copius amount of money if the need arises for a section. They will lovingly tend to the mother to be, feed her quailty foods and be totally prepared for every "just in case" that could possibly happen, just so they are not on a site like this asking for "emergency help with new puppies". They will know when to put the dogs together, they will know that even though the dogs may like each other they still may not breed. basically a decent breeder will know about pregnancy, whelping, care of mother before and care of pups and mother after. They will also lovingly select the proper homes for each individual puppy and will not just give them to the first person who shows up with the cash. They will know about the new owners lives and lifestyle and may even check out references. theya re not afraid to pass on a certain home for whatever reason, They will know what the typical characterisitcs of the breed and will know who will be the right home. They will be willing to lend a hand anytime you have an issue with the new puppy, not just for the first week or so after. A rep breeder will also be willing to take the pup back should anything become amiss, either pup turns out to be sick, or if pup is proven to have long term issues. A rep breeder will take yoru phonecalls and be willing to guide you. They allow the bitch to whelp once a year or less and know when to retire her.

A byb will simply pick 2 dogs and toss them in together and hope for puppies, they may know what to do in emergencies but often they do not. They do not provide an pre pregnancy testing, usually not even an exam. They sell to anyone who waves teh right amount of money around without knowing much about the new owners or the home. They would rather not deal with you when the first vet exams show that pup has parvo or a serious condition which will be a lifelong charge. They cannot tell you any parentage for any generations, they are not aware of what medical issue's run in the breed or the family. basicallly they hope for the best and a big fat wallet....The bitch will breed ay every season, and will only be retired when she stops becomming pregnant. No care will be taken for teh mother's needs, after all she is there just to make money....not that the mother;s are not loved, they usually are. 

This is only my opinion of course but I honestly don't think I am that far off, at least in my area it's this way sadly.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

FoMoCowboy, it's interesting to me that you've been here a couple of weeks and have already written off this forum. (Yet you continue to post and whine.)

Dogforums is not for everyone. Of those who have registered there are a few hundred truly active and involved participants. Some are outspoken - maybe even abrasive. Some are so kind-hearted and forgiving that it's either inspiring or annoying - depending on your personal read.

Most of us are just dog-owners, interested in sharing stories and ideas.

The members set the tone. If someone breaks the rules, or truly gets out-of-hand, the moderators deal with it. It's a very fine line we walk. It is, after all, an Internet forum and pretty much everything posted is somebody's opinion.

There are a few brave souls who consistantly post opinions that are not in agreement with the consensus. They do it gracefully and without becoming defensive.

I admire those members, though I don't necessarily agree with them, and I think I'd better start PMing them to let them know.

But to just complain about the forum attitude, and threaten to leave, is (in my opinion) rather low-class and pointless. Either stay and improve the forum or leave and find one that's more to your taste.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

RonE said:


> FoMoCowboy, it's interesting to me that you've been here a couple of weeks and have already written off this forum. (Yet you continue to post and whine.)
> 
> Dogforums is not for everyone. Of those who have registered there are a few hundred truly active and involved participants. Some are outspoken - maybe even abrasive. Some are so kind-hearted and forgiving that it's either inspiring or annoying - depending on your personal read.
> 
> ...


I'm still rather new here and though I've been a touch outspoken on this one thread, I hope to heck I haven't been abrasive. If I have, I apologize. There are few things regarding dogs that I have very very strong opinions of, this thread is one of them. I've had my say and will try to keep my mouth shut and read for the remainder of the thread <g>


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

...and another one bites the dust


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Nicely put, RonE. Did you put my Llama out to pasture?


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

FoMoCowboy said:


> at any rate, i think i'm done with the forum, i dont like the ''vibe'' around here, reviewing the threads it seems the majority of the members are just waiting to jump down someones throat (not mine, thats just the impression i've got from reading other peoples posts), and i came here for positive feedback and other reasons than to be bitched at, and listen to others bitch at everyone else and act like they're the greatest dog owners on the planet and do no wrong, and anyone less is the worlds worst threat to any dog within a 500 mile radius. i know that everyone on the other forums i belong to are MUCH MUCH friendlier than the general ''pupulation'' around here. i've seen about 6 people in browsing this forum in 4 days who joined, made 2 posts on the day they joined, and never logged in again...over a year later. then i read the thread, and its clear why, everyone is making them feel terrible about not being ''born knowing everything'' like everyone else is around here. i'm now one of them, i think i have what? less than 10 posts easy, and i'll NEVER log on again...
> 
> You people as dog owners should be ashamed for having so much hatred in your hearts.
> 
> so dont feel compelled to respond to this, i probably will never see it. unless you just HAVE to release your urge to BITCH, that seems to be the trend around here.


If you are not smart enough to make a good counter argument instead of just moaning about others then you are not adding to the forum anyway. So good bye and don't let the door hit you, wouldn't want you to get hurt.


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> and yet, without bybs and oops litters, there would be no dog ownership in the US.
> 
> Reputable breeders, and by that I mean breeders who show and or work their dogs, produce only a small percentage of the 4-6 million puppies needed each year to maintain an adequate dog population.


Adequate? 

There's a huge over population in America for unwanted cats and dogs. That's why so many people on here are so very anti BYB or Puppymill, among the other issues. 

My suggestion is for you to visit a shelter, and tell me that there is only an "adequate" number of pets in the US. 

To me "adequate" means that all pets would homes. That is most definitely not the case.

*WHOOPS! That's what I get for posting and not reading the entire thread. *

To the OP- Everyone makes their own decisions in life. You can stay and learn or leave and revel in your ignorance.


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## sarahspins (Apr 6, 2009)

FoMoCowboy said:


> I WILL ALWAYS BUY FROM ''BACKYARD BREEDERS''! I WILL NEVER PAY OVER $200 FOR A DOG.
> 
> IF THE DOG WAS BORN IN A BIRDCAGE, IT GIVES ME THAT MUCH MORE INCENTIVE TO RESCUE IT!


Whoa.... who said that "good" breeders are always the most expensive? Many aren't.. because they're usually NOT in it for the money! Truly it's places like Petland who charge $2000+ for mixed pups and overpriced BYB's (because obviously, more money means a better dog/breeder.. right?) that are the problem... and attitudes like yours don't help anything.

I personally wouldn't pay $200 (or any amount, for that matter) for a dog from a BYB.... and I would never ever "rescue" from a puppymill either - all that does is give them the impression that what they're doing is perfectly fine, and it's a good way to make money (afterall, if you buy from them, it's working for them, isn't it?).

Part of the problem is that people want instant gratification - they want to decide to buy/get a puppy, and then have one in short order (days, weeks at most). Most don't want to put in the effort and time in finding a good breeder. It's really not about cost, and all about "I want it now". I'll even FREELY admit that our family is somewhat guilty of that too, we had been talking about getting a lab for a long time now (almost 2 years), but once we decided we were actually ready for one, instead of doing the breeder thing and taking our time we adopted a shelter pup. He's in all likelihood from a BYB or the result of an "oops" litter (it's hard to say since he was listed at the shelter as a Lab Mix), but I'm okay with that, because I'm not directly supporting irresponsible behavior, we supported the county shelter that does a lot of good for the community, and we got a great dog out of it.

I'm new to this forum too, but I'm not an inexperienced or irresponsible pet owner... and I'm definitely not feeling any 'bad' vibes - honestly it's just nice to find a place where it seems like people feel much the same as I do.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Nicely put, RonE. Did you put my Llama out to pasture?


Yes I did.

You just can't help yourself, can you?


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

sarahspins said:


> Whoa.... who said that "good" breeders are always the most expensive? Many aren't.. because they're usually NOT in it for the money! Truly it's places like Petland who charge $2000+ for mixed pups and overpriced BYB's (because obviously, more money means a better dog/breeder.. right?) that are the problem... and attitudes like yours don't help anything.
> 
> I personally wouldn't pay $200 (or any amount, for that matter) for a dog from a BYB.... and I would never ever "rescue" from a puppymill either - all that does is give them the impression that what they're doing is perfectly fine, and it's a good way to make money (afterall, if you buy from them, it's working for them, isn't it?).
> 
> ...


Good post!!


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

RonE said:


> Yes I did.
> 
> You just can't help yourself, can you?


 no.....


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

sarahspins said:


> Whoa.... who said that "good" breeders are always the most expensive? Many aren't.. because they're usually NOT in it for the money!
> 
> 
> .


No kidding! When I see dogs at petstores, where dogs come from puppymills or from NOT good breeders, their prices are far more than you'd pay at a reputable breeders


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I think the problem we are seeing here is simply a difference of definition. I beleave the poster takes the term "Back Yard Breeder" litteraly. meaning ANYone who breeds and raises their dogs in their backyard. If this is true this type definition can cover very reputable breeders as well. The woman I got Hawk from raises and keeps her dogs fenced-in in her backyard, she also does OFA, titles, and breeds for temperment as well.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

That's probably it. I mean, pretty much only puppymills _wouldn't_ have their dogs in the backyard, right? And I'd rather support a BYB any day over a puppymill. I have very definite requirements for any breeder I would support, but if I ever buy from a breeder it will probably not be a show breeder (which by some people's definitions would be a BYB). I would absolutely want health testing, though. No way I'd drop money on a purebred dog without having at least OFA results. And no way I'd support a breeder that doesn't test for things that should have been bred out of the dog population a long time ago, but weren't because of the bad breeders that don't test.


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## jules19 (Sep 26, 2015)

I agree with the general "vibe" of the thread, and agree that there are varying definitions of the terms "hobby breeder" and "BYB." I prefer segregating the sources for getting a dog as responsible or irresponsible.

Responsible breeders/rescues/shelters: screen their buyers, help to match dogs to homes, care for the dogs wholeheartedly and get them appropriate vet care, meet the animals' needs, and screen for genetic issues BEFORE mating a dog. They care and show they care by doing what's right.

Irresponsible sources (which can include rescues/shelters) do not do these things. Breeders who do not have their dogs screened for genetic issues and purposefully breed are irresponsible. Full stop. You only need to see a dog suffering from a seizure to condemn folks who think it's fine to not screen, because most likely they are where this dog came from--a batch of indiscriminately bred puppies who get to suffer through a hereditary disease for the rest of their lives.

Pet stores are always a bad choice IMO. I agree that you are not rescuing those dogs but prolonging the suffering of the puppy that will replace him next week and the parents who are still being used. Sucks to think about, but it's true.

Thanks for a very provocative post that helped me see from where other people draw their concluions.


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## ashleyandrupert (Oct 26, 2015)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*

i wouldnt say backyard breeders are bad. I have an aunt and uncle that breed Golden Retrievers and they started out with their dog getting knocked up. Then they decided it was a good idea/ Now they have a good reputation in the Nebraska by word of mouth and i think they are still considered "backyard breeders" but they never have had any issues


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*

**Just a heads up... this thread is from 2009.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



BostonBullMama said:


> **Just a heads up... this thread is from 2009.


I have a super real question - I was going to post and say "hey, if you guys want to have a more current discussion about "BYB" versus "hobby" versus "reputable" breeders, starting a new thread will probably be a great way to get more comments than posting on a thread that's six years old". 

But then I was afraid that that was backseat moderating and I'd get in trouble. Is it okay to point out resurrections and suggest people start a new thread?


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



Hiraeth said:


> I have a super real question - I was going to post and say "hey, if you guys want to have a more current discussion about "BYB" versus "hobby" versus "reputable" breeders, starting a new thread will probably be a great way to get more comments than posting on a thread that's six years old".
> 
> But then I was afraid that that was backseat moderating and I'd get in trouble. Is it okay to point out resurrections and suggest people start a new thread?


If it is, then call me guilty.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



BostonBullMama said:


> If it is, then call me guilty.


No, I thought your comment was fine, but I thought mine might have pushed the backseat moderating line. I'll definitely be stealing what you said in the future if I find it of necessity to point out that a thread is super old


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



Hiraeth said:


> I have a super real question - I was going to post and say "hey, if you guys want to have a more current discussion about "BYB" versus "hobby" versus "reputable" breeders, starting a new thread will probably be a great way to get more comments than posting on a thread that's six years old".
> 
> But then I was afraid that that was backseat moderating and I'd get in trouble. Is it okay to point out resurrections and suggest people start a new thread?


I would actually like to have a discussion like that, it would be cool. Maybe it even might be made a sticky!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*

I went ahead and made a new thread, so we dont mud up this one LOL: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/407082-puppies-reputable-breeders-vs.html


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## seaboxador (Sep 23, 2012)

*Re: Things We Wish Everyone Knew Before They Get A Dog*



sarahspins said:


> Why be set on adopting a super young puppy? They don't stay that way forever.. adopt a dog because you want a _dog_. Puppies are only tiny and cute for a few months at most, and come with a lot of issues to deal with that an older puppy or young dog usually doesn't.


Yes but you get to train that puppy and with an older dog or older puppy they can have behavioral issues that you'll never fix. Raising a puppy is something that every dog lover should experience.


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