# Woman denied shelter dog because of 'dog whisperer' behavior.



## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Don't know if anyone has shared this link yet, but yay! Good for this rescue!! 

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/10642902._Dog_Whisperer__disciple_denied_dog_adoption/

"A DOG lover was dismayed to hear she was not allowed to adopt a new pet, after a rescue home disagreed with her "brutal" Dog Whisperer techniques.

Elke Hojer, who runs a rural TV and Film studio location near Saunderton, already has five dogs and went to Stokenchurch Dog Rescue to add to her pack.

But when she and her son took two of their dogs to meet pug-cross Piglet, Miss Hojer was told the centre did not approve of her controversial disciplining style.

The mother-of-two follows the teachings of TV ‘Dog Whisperer’ Cesar Millan, who believes humans must assert themselves as ‘pack-leader’ using a series of physical and psychological techniques.

These included forcing a dog into submission by pinning it to the floor, a move Miss Hojer performed on her own pet during the meeting.

And the 49-year-old studio director, who has adopted from the centre before, is disappointed she wasn’t told about their stance on Mr Millan until after her visit.

She said: "I was told they disagreed with the technique and that I couldn’t have a dog from them.

"I have a very well-balanced pack of dogs. Yes, some of them are young and still learning but they are all very well behaved.

"The techniques of Cesar Millan are not aggressive, in fact they are very calm and a lot of it is based on psychology and body language.

"What they are doing at the centre is tremendous, that’s why I went there, but they have wasted my time and staff time just because we have a difference of opinion over disciplining.”

Mexican-born Mr Millan rose to fame with his TV show ‘The Dog Whisperer’, which features him dealing with aggressive dogs and helping the owners gain control over them.

Stokenchurch Dog Rescue have hit back over Miss Hojer’s criticism, calling Mr Millan’s techniques "brutal" and "out-dated".

Since opening in 1963, the home has successfully re-homed thousands of stray and unwanted dogs.

Joyce Marriott, chair of trustees, defended her staff’s decision and condemned techniques used by Miss Hojer during the meeting, which included forcing the animal to the ground and slapping its back legs.

“During the visit Miss Hojer advised us that she follows the Cesar Milan methods of training,” she said.

“These involve him, when he feels it is necessary, using electric shock collars, pronged choke collars, kicking the dogs’ flanks and other dominance techniques.

"Mr Millan has openly confirmed that he uses these out-dated and brutal techniques."

No-one at the rescue centre suggested Miss Hojer used any of the methods other than the ones witnessed during their meeting.

She added: "These methods have been condemned by countless dog lovers who, like us, practice and promote positive reward training.

"Our first duty is the wellbeing of our dogs, particularly bearing in mind that a lot have already been abused in previous homes.

"Therefore, given what the staff had witnessed, we did not think that this was the right family for this little dog."

Mrs Marriott has since contacted Miss Hojer personally, and added that the rescue centre’s website will now carry a message outlining its stance on dog discipline to avoid future disappointment."


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm laughing. Good for this rescue.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Good for them! More shelters need to do this.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Super! Nice to read there are actually shelters out there that would care about such a thing. When I search for rescues I often come across the opposite: if you don't assert yourself with dominance you can't get a dog from them (and they advise you to not get a dog at all. Which I think is bullshit).


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Avie said:


> Super! Nice to read there are actually shelters out there that would care about such a thing. When I search for rescues I often come across the opposite: if you don't assert yourself with dominance you can't get a dog from them (and they advise you to not get a dog at all. Which I think is bullshit).


I was denied by a rescue because I don't practice CM's "technique". Good for the rescue!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I was reluctant to scroll down and read the comments on that article, but I see that there are a few very sensible people in there explaining why Cesar's methods are outdated. Always nice to see!


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> I was denied by a rescue because I don't practice CM's "technique". Good for the rescue!


OH no, not someone who doesn't believe in beating a dog ooo0000OOOOO000ooo whatever will we do.


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## Indigo (Mar 31, 2011)

That's great!



Amaryllis said:


> I was denied by a rescue because I don't practice CM's "technique". Good for the rescue!


One rescue I wanted to adopt a dog from had BOTH camps in their ranks. I guess I don't have to tell you I never got a dog from them... they couldn't even agree with each other!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Even if someone thinks Cesar is the bee's knees, why would you go to a meetup with people you don't know and proceed to roll and smack your dog? Did she think it would impress them? It just seems like inappropriate public behavior even for people who believe in that kind of thing.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Wait a minute? 
Folks are glad a rescue denied a home based on training techniques? 

Granted this woman was a bit of an idiot...

But there are dogs languishing in shelters, being euthanized and now rescues are not going to place dogs based on training methods...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Wait a minute?
> Folks are glad a rescue denied a home based on training techniques?
> 
> Granted this woman was a bit of an idiot...
> ...



I don't think it's so much as 'yee-haw training technique denial' as 'physically rolled a dog'. You can ascribe to all the dominance theory you want, but if you're physically manhandling your dog in an aggressive way, presumably because it's out of control, well. 

No, I won't adopt to her, either. And I'm someone who was pretty lax and understanding about things like kids, yards, rental, and age, when I was doing rescue.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, for me it sounded like more of an issue of, if this woman will force her dog to the ground, pin it, and slap its back legs in public (when she's trying to make a good impression, no less), what's she going to do at home?

Also:



> The techniques of Cesar Millan are not aggressive, in fact they are very calm


This always kills me. I could punch someone in the face or kick them in the kneecap completely calmly. Would that make it a good thing? People put too much stock in how "calm assertive" Cesar is while performing his techniques, and don't pay attention to how the dog is handling it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Yeah, for me it sounded like more of an issue of, if this woman will force her dog to the ground, pin it, and slap its back legs in public (when she's trying to make a good impression, no less), what's she going to do at home?


There's a real lack of self-control in handling the dog, in what I'm reading in the description. That would bother me, a lot.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> I don't think it's so much as 'yee-haw training technique denial' as 'physically rolled a dog'. You can ascribe to all the dominance theory you want, but if you're physically manhandling your dog in an aggressive way, presumably because it's out of control, well.
> 
> No, I won't adopt to her, either. And I'm someone who was pretty lax and understanding about things like kids, yards, rental, and age, when I was doing rescue.


I was not talking this woman specifically.... I said she is an idiot...

But I am saying applauding rescues for denying someone because of their training methods.....


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Wait a minute?
> Folks are glad a rescue denied a home based on training techniques?
> 
> Granted this woman was a bit of an idiot...
> ...


Pretty much what CptJack said.
Cesar is abusive. This is my feeling and I don't know how anyone could feel different when he's ruining dogs daily, when he's kicking and slapping and hanging them. Obviously the rescue knows that.
The woman didn't just say she likes Cesar, she rolled and pinned her own dog there in front of them. for no reason other than to show off.

Why would a rescue adopt a dog out to someone they KNOW is going to abuse it?


Just to add, rescues deny people because they don't have a fenced in yard, because one of their animals isn't altered, because you work, because you've got kids or- well, there's a plethora of stupid reasons. I don't think someone admitting they're willign to use these methods is one of them.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I was not talking this woman specifically.... I said she is an idiot...
> 
> But I am saying applauding rescues for denying someone because of their training methods.....


I don't know about everyone else, but I'm applauding this specific rescue in this specific instance.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

In a way, kind of sad. It could have been more of a learning teaching experience for the woman instead of a 'piss off' moment for her. Sad thing is she will probably scroll through the craigslist site and go support a BYB. She is in search of another dog. The rescue could have offered free training lessons for her new dog and her. By doing that, the rescue could have shown the lady what the rescue felt was a better training method and changed the way she treated not only the new dog but the other dogs at home. Ceasar will more than likely contact her and work with her with a dog from his center. Watch for it in the future CM shows.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I was not talking this woman specifically.... I said she is an idiot...
> 
> But I am saying applauding rescues for denying someone because of their training methods.....


I don't think I'd deny someone (personally) for ascribing for any particular training theory. I would, however, deny for some ACTIONS, if that makes sense. I will adopt to you if you don't have a physical fence; I will not adopt to you if you're going to use a tie-out unsupervised. I mean it sucks and I think a lot of things are polarizing in the dog world, and I think a lot of the requirements of rescues are dumb and arbitrary, but at the end of the day rescues are going to do pretty much what they can to get their dogs into homes they feel good about.

But then I was never overly strict OR someone who wanted to 'save as many as possible' as opposed to 'get THESE ones into really, really good homes, then go back and do the same for some more'. So being picky might strike me as DUMB, but not necessarily self defeating. Depends on the objective, you know?

That said: I was talking about this rescue, in this instance, too.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

People aren't applauding a rescue for denying someone based on her training _methods_, they are applauding denying her for using a particular technique. I suspect, also, that there's more to the story than what's in the article but the rolling may have been a concrete, convenient reason to deny her. 

Anyway, a rescue is perfectly free to make up whatever rules about who they do and don't adopt to whether any of us agree with it or not. Not sure why it doesn't make the news every time a rescue denies an adoption for not having a fence or whatever.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have been told by a rescue they would not adopt to me because I have an e-fence and not a fence. I was only talking to the rescue and was told not to bother filling out a form because of their rules. Never mind the dog would have gone to obedience classes and have been properly vetted on a monthly/yearly basis. That the reason I did go to an e-fence was to contain a Houdini type of dog from escaping the farm. A four foot or even a 6 foot fence was not problem for this dog. I did not contact the media when the rescue told me this. It was their right to deny me. Just as it is my right to go buy a dog or adopt a dog from wherever. At the moment, I do not need nor want another dog. Funny thing is I am looking at 3 of my dogs who were given to me by breeders/show people because they wanted their non-show pup to go to a good home. What one considers a good home may not be to another person.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I know that some posters were speaking out specifically about this incident. But some were speaking in general terms as well. 

I am also aware that rescues reject people for ALL SORTS of stupid reasons. 

I got rejected on an Anatolian Bitch in rescue because I stated I was going to use her for home security.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I got rejected because the dog I wanted "deserved" to be an only dog so he didn't need to share the attention...


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

trainingjunkie said:


> I got rejected because the dog I wanted "deserved" to be an only dog so he didn't need to share the attention...


(sarcastic voice) Because there is no way you could share your love with 2 dogs.....that's ridiculous >.>


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

kcomstoc said:


> (sarcastic voice) Because there is no way you could share your love with 2 dogs.....that's ridiculous >.>


Nope. Its widely known that there isn't enough love in your heart to make room for another dog. *eye roll* Where do they come up with this stuff!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

In their defense, it would have been a 3 way split!

Ultimately, their dog, their call! There are always other rescues!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> I got rejected because the dog I wanted "deserved" to be an only dog so he didn't need to share the attention...


my other dog is older and less active but i've been spending MORE time with her ever since i got a younger dog who needs more... because she goes with too. so that really makes no sense.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I got rejected because the dog I wanted "deserved" to be an only dog so he didn't need to share the attention...


Then my SIX dogs must really be badly treated....


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Pretty much what CptJack said.
> Cesar is abusive. This is my feeling and I don't know how anyone could feel different when he's ruining dogs daily, when he's kicking and slapping and hanging them. Obviously the rescue knows that.
> The woman didn't just say she likes Cesar, she rolled and pinned her own dog there in front of them. for no reason other than to show off.
> 
> ...



I used to watch that show,I`m not into the methods but I don't remember him actually physically hurting a dog,don't remember any kicking either. Who said she was even doing that stuff,some people just do the rolling,and its been around longer then Ceaser. I`m not even really against rolling for the dogs sake, except with sensitive or fearful dogs,I just feel its a good way to get bit. Even though I don't care for it I'd rather a dog be rolled then euthanized or suffering in a cage. Just like when I was a kid I'd much rather live at home even though I got struck,then live at some mental facility or the like.
I dislike the other reasons people are refused even more.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I saw him kick and strangle dogs...


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Foresthund said:


> I used to watch that show,I`m not into the methods but I don't remember him actually physically hurting a dog,don't remember any kicking either. Who said she was even doing that stuff,some people just do the rolling,and its been around longer then Ceaser. I`m not even really against rolling for the dogs sake, except with sensitive or fearful dogs,I just feel its a good way to get bit. Even though I don't care for it I'd rather a dog be rolled then euthanized or suffering in a cage. Just like when I was a kid I'd much rather live at home even though I got struck,then live at some mental facility or the like.
> I dislike the other reasons people are refused even more.


No dog should be alpha rolled. It teaches them absolutely nothing. An abusive home > a cage or euthanized? I'm almost not sure... Obviously we don't know the extent of this woman's training methods but I'm under the impression that the dog can wait at the shelter just a litttttle longer for a better family. No dog should go to a home where he is alpha rolled and smacked on his haunches.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=buUHYM9ymc8 <--- Cesar's "touch". Notice how many dogs yelp or react only after the "touch"


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

I work at a no kill shelter. I suggest to "not approve this application" at least twice a week to the kennel director even if it would have just from the application gone through. 

People are idiots. Just yesterday someone came in because he wanted a dog that would "not wander far" when I told him we only adopt to people with a fence or use a tie out. He said he didn't need to do that because he lived in the country, but if that's on the application he'd just say he had a tie out. People lie on applications. It's my job as a staff member to make sure that these dogs go to a home where they would be safe and I never have to see them again unless they are visiting (not being returned). So it's my job to have lengthy conversations with adopters about what they're looking for and then "selling" them on a dog that matches. We have cattle dog puppies in right now. I've talked no less than 6 couples out of them and they've been here three days. It's my job to make sure they go to the best home, not the first people who look at them. Sometimes those are the same people. But no, I'm not going to adopt them out to someone who has never owned a dog before, lives in a one bedroom student apartment, and who ask "is a quick game of fetch?" Appropriate exercise. To do so would be irresponsible. 

I stand by what these people did and I hope word spreads that this is not an appropriate way to handle dogs.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Actually, I was speaking in general. Alpha techniques damage dogs. It's not enough to just put dogs in homes, they have to be good homes. If we're just putting dogs in homes, then a home who will chain the dog in the back yard and throw food at it daily is okay, right?

Nor is the rescue responsible for what the lady does next. If I refuse to give you $1,000, is it my fault if you them rob a bank? 

As for the teachable moment, ain't nobody got time for that. I've yet to see a rescue worker with 5 extra minutes on their hands, let alone endless time to devote to debating Milan devotees.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> Actually, I was speaking in general. Alpha techniques damage dogs. It's not enough to just put dogs in homes, they have to be good homes. If we're just putting dogs in homes, then a home who will chain the dog in the back yard and throw food at it daily is okay, right?
> 
> Nor is the rescue responsible for what the lady does next. If I refuse to give you $1,000, is it my fault if you them rob a bank?
> 
> As for the teachable moment, ain't nobody got time for that. I've yet to see a rescue worker with 5 extra minutes on their hands, let alone endless time to devote to debating Milan devotees.



I don't really agree (at all) that the general alpha theory necessarily damages dogs. My mother and stepfather ascribe to it, in a loose and general way. In practice? They practice NILF. They make the dog sit and wait for food, or to go out the door, and insist that he only get on furniture if invited and get down when told. That's standard. Their reasoning is to be 'The leader of the pack'. The life the dog leads? Is not different than the sort mine lead, except mine ARE allowed on furniture. 

I think it's baloney, it's been debunked, but their motivations are irrelevant to me. How they treat the dog is what I care about.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I was not talking this woman specifically.... I said she is an idiot...
> 
> But I am saying applauding rescues for denying someone because of their training methods.....


I was denied by a rescue because I pulled bear away & told him firmly "no!" When he tried to hike his leg on the shelter volunteer :/. I didn't hit him, I didn't yank him off his feet, I didn't yell at him, I just reeled him in back to me & told him no. 

They told me that I was "too abusive" & that I shouldn't have dogs , so IMHO some rescues can take it to far, & I fear that if someone even so much as says no to their dog, then they will be rejected & the dog will lose out on an otherwise great home.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> I don't know about everyone else, but I'm applauding this specific rescue in this specific instance.


Ditto. Perhaps I shouldn't have titled the thread the way I did. Doh!


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I was denied by a rescue because I pulled bear away & told him firmly "no!" When he tried to hike his leg on the shelter volunteer :/. I didn't hit him, I didn't yank him off his feet, I didn't yell at him, I just reeled him in back to me & told him no.
> 
> They told me that I was "too abusive" & that I shouldn't have dogs , so IMHO some rescues can take it to far, & I fear that if someone even so much as says no to their dog, then they will be rejected & the dog will lose out on an otherwise great home.


Yep, it's definitely a fine line rescues have to walk. It's not a job I envy, having to decide which homes are suitable and which aren't.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have worked in "rescue" before per say.... Not for a rescue but I have rehomed dogs on my own (that show up after being dumped by someone else :/) so I know that "fine line" they have to walk in judging perspective homes. Depending on the dog, I would feel comfortable adopting a dog with let's say, Josefina's personality to someone who like one poster's parents who as they said subscribe to a "loose" version "alpha " theory as long as there is no alpha rolling, hanging, kicking or pinning going on. I see no problem with "NILF", I use it myself (how strict I am with it depends on how soft the dog is)


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I know I am double posting ... but I had a recent experience with the rescue I was previously on good terms with. I accidently posted a dog in the wrong place on a FB page & the guy who runs it got all bent out of shape about it & flamed me via PM on FB. I tried telling him that it was an honest mistake but he seemed convinced that I had done it on purpose ... whatever dude.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

I don't agree with his methods. I do think his exercise, discipline, affection mantra should be used by a lot more people. A lot of problems people have with their dogs could be solved by having a tired dog!  Some of the things this particular rescue touted as horrible I don't necessarily think are horrible however when used judiciously. "Shock" collars have a place (deaf dogs, snake aversion training) ... as do prong collars .. when used by someone knowledgeable.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

we had to resort to an E collar with Bear to teach him to leave snakes alone. He now associates snakes with being buzzed (I used the vibe setting, not the actual electric shock)


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## upfromtheashes (Mar 10, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> we had to resort to an E collar with Bear to teach him to leave snakes alone. He now associates snakes with being buzzed (I used the vibe setting, not the actual electric shock)


You realize of course that some on here are now going to label you a dog-abuser. 

I think what this shelter did is hogwash. They didn't let this lady adopt a dog because they don't agree with her training methods....but I would bet you $100 that they would happily adopt out their dogs to the millions (very literally the majority of dog owners) who don't train their dogs AT ALL. I'm talking about the dogs I encounter every time I take mine to the park who are dragging their owners down the street like they were running the Iditarod...the dogs that have no dog/dog social skills whatsoever because their owners never made any effort to socialize them and/or teach them what is acceptable behavior...the dogs who are running in circles while their pitiful owner chases after them for literally 15-20 minutes yelling "Lucky! Lucky you get over here! Oh you are in some trouble mister! Lucky! Lucky!!"...the dogs who bark incessantly because their owners have never taught them how to shut up....the dogs who jump all over people because their owners have never taught them otherwise...I could go on and on. 

I'm not a disciple of Cesar Milan, but I believe that the biggest training problem facing dogs today is not physical correction training, it's a complete lack of training altogether. MOST dogs have little to no training at all, and many of them are holy terrors. Many of them end up euthanized or abandoned for "behavior problems" when they were never taught to behave in the first place. 

If you want your home to be a zone of happy happy joy joy and employ 100% positive training methods....then fantastic. I'm just glad you're training your dog. 
If you believe in a firmer hand and physical correction....then fantastic. I'm just glad you're training your dog. 

I'm sure it's obvious by the tone of my post that I've trained my dogs by using physical correction. They are better behaved than most, and people often comment on their good behavior. They also know that I love them, and they love me. When I get home from work tonight they will be all over me, happy to see their "dad".


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Honestly, if I was rehoming a dog and the person who wanted to adopt came with their dog and hit/pinned it/etc... I wouldn't let my dog go home with them. That's just me and my opinion. To me, that is different than just using physical corrections when training (like a quick leash pop, for example).

Same thing if someone came into my house and started using Alpha crap on my dog. Um, no. Get away from my dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

upfromtheashes said:


> You realize of course that some on here are now going to label you a dog-abuser.


Oh, baloney. I flat out admit on here a lot that I use absolutely high level frying shocks to snake-train my dogs. No one has had an issue with it. Likewise, no one has accused me of abuse for using a prong on my large, capable of physically hurting me sometimes dog with a prey drive. 

There is a vast difference between using aversive methods to train a dog in something you have all the time in the world to train and that is easily accomplished with positive methods, and using aversives in a situation where you or the dog may end up DEAD if the issue is not resolved quickly. Frankly speaking, any dog that shows up here with a behavioral issue falls into one of two categories: 
Normal dog behavior and misbehavior for which positive methods work very well with no risk of all out
and
Issues that need a trainer to help with, because we're the freaking INTERNET and don't know the dog, the owner, or want liability if they use a method with potential fallout and danger associated to owner or dog if incorrectly applied.

I've trained my dog with positive behavior. Except the two above cases. I've never even used no-reward markers for one dog. They're all beautifully behaved, and one dog had THREE titles in performance related things before age ONE. Physical corrections are not necessarily damaging, but they do come with a lot more risk than positive training. That's why we don't recommend them. That doesn't make us idiots or owners of untrained dogs, and I for one am frankly sick of that particular line of bullcrap.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Oh, baloney. I flat out admit on here a lot that I use absolutely high level frying shocks to snake-train my dogs. No one has had an issue with it. Likewise, no one has accused me of abuse for using a prong on my large, capable of physically hurting me sometimes dog with a prey drive.
> 
> There is a vast difference between using aversive methods to train a dog in something you have all the time in the world to train and that is easily accomplished with positive methods, and using aversives in a situation where you or the dog may end up DEAD if the issue is not resolved quickly. Frankly speaking, any dog that shows up here with a behavioral issue falls into one of two categories:
> Normal dog behavior and misbehavior for which positive methods work very well with no risk of all out
> ...


This reminded me that I would never advocate for correction based training in situations where positive training would also get results. Just no need for it in my opinion.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> This reminded me that I would never advocate for correction based training in situations where positive training would also get results. Just no need for it in my opinion.


There isn't. I mean frankly, I use aversives. Obviously. I use them because I want the snake to be something they have an aversion to, and I need to not have my face meet the pavement because a butterfly fluttered by, and I can't physically stop him self-rewarding. I use them thoughtfully and for SAFETY. 

Anyone using correction based training because it's easier, faster, they're not willing to wait or they don't believe positive will get results is, IMO, lazy, impatient, or ignorant. So, yeah. I judge. 

Not the use of corrections or aversives for being aversive or corrections but because of the REASON and way they are being applied, and for what. Some behavior really does need to stop, fast, to keep dog and owner alive. That's... really rarely the case, frankly.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The worst part, though, is that most people who use physically painful methods to "train" are training completely ineffectively. "Stop that!" *smack* or *yank*, and then the dog learn nothing and keeps getting smacked/yanked, every single day for his entire life. If someone used painful methods effectively. . .well, I still wouldn't be thrilled because I think that most of the time, using painful methods is a bunch of macho ego nonsense (obviously not counting stuff like snake aversion), but if they did it effectively so that there were very few instances of the painful action, well, super. But you can't tell me that this lady was using painful methods effectively if she "had to" pin and hit her dog in front of shelter workers. That's a pretty good sign of ineffective desperation.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> There isn't. I mean frankly, I use aversives. Obviously. I use them because I want the snake to be something they have an aversion to, and I need to not have my face meet the pavement because a butterfly fluttered by, and I can't physically stop him self-rewarding. I use them thoughtfully and for SAFETY.
> 
> Anyone using correction based training because it's easier, faster, they're not willing to wait or they don't believe positive will get results is, IMO, lazy, impatient, or ignorant. So, yeah. I judge.
> 
> Not the use of corrections or aversives for being aversive or corrections but because of the REASON and way they are being applied, and for what. Some behavior really does need to stop, fast, to keep dog and owner alive. That's... really rarely the case, frankly.


I hear ya. I've been slammed into a wall by a 100lb+ untrained pulling GSD mix. Not interested in a repeat performance. Mind you, that is one of the reasons I want a medium dog vs large, so I COULD physically control it in emergency situations if necessary.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> I hear ya. I've been slammed into a wall by a 100lb+ untrained pulling GSD mix. Not interested in a repeat performance. Mind you, that is one of the reasons I want a medium dog vs large, so I COULD physically control it in emergency situations if necessary.


Yeaaaah, there's a reason the dogs I got on purpose top out at 25lbs. OTOH, Thud IS learning! Which is good!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

upfromtheashes said:


> You realize of course that some on here are now going to label you a dog-abuser.
> 
> I think what this shelter did is hogwash. They didn't let this lady adopt a dog because they don't agree with her training methods....but I would bet you $100 that they would happily adopt out their dogs to the millions (very literally the majority of dog owners) who don't train their dogs AT ALL. I'm talking about the dogs I encounter every time I take mine to the park who are dragging their owners down the street like they were running the Iditarod...the dogs that have no dog/dog social skills whatsoever because their owners never made any effort to socialize them and/or teach them what is acceptable behavior...the dogs who are running in circles while their pitiful owner chases after them for literally 15-20 minutes yelling "Lucky! Lucky you get over here! Oh you are in some trouble mister! Lucky! Lucky!!"...the dogs who bark incessantly because their owners have never taught them how to shut up....the dogs who jump all over people because their owners have never taught them otherwise...I could go on and on.
> 
> ...


What an odd comparison. They don't want to their dog to pinned to the floor but would be OK with someone not training at all. Is that what happened? Did that dog eventually get adopted to someone who said "No sir, I won't be training this guy, believe that!" and the rescue said "Thank god, that is much better than alpha rolling and we don't want this dog to end up in the shelter.. where it already is?" 

Some of you live in the most bizarre vortex of super awful dogs with owners that have zero handle on them. I live in a decent sized, dog friendly city and am actively out where dogs are every day and don't have a quarter of the troubles with other dogs some of you seem to.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well fortunately, the only choices aren't "alpha rolling household" and "won't train the dog at all" household. As long as they have the resources, the rescue can hold out for a happy medium.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sassafras said:


> Well fortunately, the only choices aren't "alpha rolling household" and "won't train the dog at all" household. As long as they have the resources, the rescue can hold out for a happy medium.


No let's have a slap fight about whether or not we use physical corrections.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> No let's have a slap fight about whether or not we use physical corrections.


I used a prong once. I suppose now you're going to call me a dog abuser.

I also make my dogs jump through a hole in the back door.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sassafras said:


> I used a prong once. I suppose now you're going to call me a dog abuser.
> 
> I also make my dogs jump through a hole in the back door.


I'm about to get off the computer and slap a dog around with the broom.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

You guys is crazy! XD


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Kayota said:


> I saw him kick and strangle dogs...


A cool fact on this video that I think is worth mentioning. A few months back, a women came onto a FB group I'm part of. She was apparently Shadow's foster mom, and said he had NO issues at all before she adopted him out to the owner in this video. The dog only became aggressive when the new owner began using Ceasar's training techniques and his issues escalated. After the filming on the Dog Whisperer, Shadow got so bad, that the rescue he was adopted from was contacted, and his foster mom took him back. She was completely unaware of the Dog Whisperer segment until after she got him, and was beyond angry. She ended up permanently adopting Shadow, who made a full recovery and is now back to his happy self.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> I also make my dogs jump through a hole in the back door.


I'm totally ok with that as long as YOU do the same. 

Houseguests, optional.


oooo almost forgot, better put one of these  lest you think I'm serious


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> I'm totally ok with that as long as YOU do the same.
> 
> Houseguests, optional.
> 
> ...


This is the Internet. Everything is vrysrs. 

>:| <---Grim face of srsness


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

RCloud said:


> A cool fact on this video that I think is worth mentioning. A few months back, a women came onto a FB group I'm part of. She was apparently Shadow's foster mom, and said he had NO issues at all before she adopted him out to the owner in this video. The dog only became aggressive when the new owner began using Ceasar's training techniques and his issues escalated. After the filming on the Dog Whisperer, Shadow got so bad, that the rescue he was adopted from was contacted, and his foster mom took him back. She was completely unaware of the Dog Whisperer segment until after she got him, and was beyond angry. She ended up permanently adopting Shadow, who made a full recovery and is now back to his happy self.


I've heard a lot of stories like this about dogs that Cesar has "rehabilitated," but unfortunately they have to come second-hand like that because of the non-disclosure agreements. I wish some journalist would do a big story and speak to a bunch of shelters, rescues, and new owners of dogs featured on the show... anyone who isn't subject to the NDA. I bet it would be interesting.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> I've heard a lot of stories like this about dogs that Cesar has "rehabilitated," but unfortunately they have to come second-hand like that because of the non-disclosure agreements. I wish some journalist would do a big story and speak to a bunch of shelters, rescues, and new owners of dogs featured on the show... anyone who isn't subject to the NDA. I bet it would be interesting.


Agreed. While that was the only story I've ever heard from someone's personal experience with the show, I've no doubt it happens with other dogs, considering he provokes the dogs into acting out. It's all for publicity.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I do think it's silly to deny someone adopting a dog because of their training methods. Getting a home and receiving training is better than sitting in a shelter, and dogs can have balanced training and have good lives. I don't think anyone is saying otherwise.

But this isn't simply a matter of disagreeing with a training method, but denying someone adoption because their training methods are out-dated, abusive and unscientific. Big difference.

Good on them, I say.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> I bet it would be interesting.


Darn tootin' it would. 

Unfortunately though, for JQP things like Mylie Cypress twerking seem better at catching the eye.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

So long as you're not being a cruel D bag, I really don't care how you train your dog, and will agree it's foolish to deny a shelter dog a home based on that. 

I DON'T think that was the case here though.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> I'm totally ok with that as long as YOU do the same.


Are you kidding? If I jump through the hole, they won't see me as alpha. DUH.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Galathiel said:


> I don't agree with his methods. I do think his exercise, discipline, affection mantra should be used by a lot more people. A lot of problems people have with their dogs could be solved by having a tired dog!  Some of the things this particular rescue touted as horrible I don't necessarily think are horrible however when used judiciously. "Shock" collars have a place (deaf dogs, snake aversion training) ... as do prong collars .. when used by someone knowledgeable.


What? You can use a vibration collar for a deaf dog... No need to shock it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kayota said:


> What? You can use a vibration collar for a deaf dog... No need to shock it.


 Well, no, but in my deaf dog's case vibration is more aversive than low level shock. So! Shock it is. Paired up with treats, even, like a clicker would be.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes I used the vibe or "page" or whatever they call it on Bear ... I never needed to actually shock him & eve with the page only setting it only took a few times, first with rubber snakes then a dead real rattle snake. It didnt take him long to associate the smell with the vibration.

@ Sass, I love how Squash is the only one who is kind of doing a stutter step through it


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

You don't have to actually 'shock' with an ecollar ... some have a zillion settings on them.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Agreed, I never shocked with the one I used. There are some of the cheaper ones that only shock or vibe ... But I had a more expensive one.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I like the owners who after spending some time trying to catch their dog, smack their dog for not coming. What trainer is responsible for that training tip? I just don't get those owners who can not figure out for themselves why the dog doesn't come when called. 


Or the owner who signs up for classes and only works with the dog during class. Never works/trains the dog during the week even for 5 minutes. Then has the nerve to say that the dog just is not getting what is being taught in class. DUH!

Some shelters are so overburdened and understaffed they will adopt out to just about anybody. My brother went to such a shelter. He was given the dog because the place was crowded and the staff just wanted to get rid of an elderly dog. Luckily for the dog, my brother is a good pet owner.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think that "smacking" the dog or fussing at it after it finally comes back is a knee jerk reaction on the part of humans even I sometimes have to remind myself to refrain from doing something like that (the fussing not the smacking) because the dog came back, no matter how long it took the, dog. decided. to. come. BACK ... & I have to remind myself of that.


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## seaboxador (Sep 23, 2012)

Therein lies the problem with most rescue organizations. They fail to realize that not placing one dog means that another ends up being put down in the system. The search for the perfect owner puts off a lot of potential dog owners who are interested.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

seaboxador said:


> Therein lies the problem with most rescue organizations. They fail to realize that not placing one dog means that another ends up being put down in the system. The search for the perfect owner puts off a lot of potential dog owners who are interested.


Actually, owners of the dogs turned in not taking responsibility for their own pets is what means that another ends up being put down in the system. 

I think some rescues do go too far with their standards. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't have any standards at all, and rejecting someone who alpha rolls a dog right in front of you isn't searching for a "perfect" owner IMO.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

seaboxador said:


> Therein lies the problem with most rescue organizations. They fail to realize that not placing one dog means that another ends up being put down in the system. The search for the perfect owner puts off a lot of potential dog owners who are interested.


YES. As long as this person wasn't outright being abusive to the animal then I don't see why that was a reason not to permit the adoption. These aren't kids we are talking about. 
Better in a home with a slightly ignorant person then stuck in a shelter waiting for this "perfect" home.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

lego said:


> YES. As long as this person wasn't outright being abusive to the animal then I don't see why that was a reason not to permit the adoption. These aren't kids we are talking about.
> Better in a home with a slightly ignorant person then stuck in a shelter waiting for this "perfect" home.


There is no such thing as the perfect home. 

I wouldn't adopt to anyone who smacked their dog in front of me. Like this instance. Your training philosophy doesn't matter unless you clearly show me that are abusive. Like smacking your dog in front of me.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> There is no such thing as the perfect home.
> 
> I wouldn't adopt to anyone who smacked their dog in front of me. Like this instance. Your training philosophy doesn't matter unless you clearly show me that are abusive. Like smacking your dog in front of me.


 I didn't read anything in the original post about dog smacking.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

upfromtheashes said:


> You realize of course that some on here are now going to label you a dog-abuser.
> 
> I think what this shelter did is hogwash. They didn't let this lady adopt a dog because they don't agree with her training methods....but I would bet you $100 that they would happily adopt out their dogs to the millions (very literally the majority of dog owners) who don't train their dogs AT ALL. I'm talking about the dogs I encounter every time I take mine to the park who are dragging their owners down the street like they were running the Iditarod...the dogs that have no dog/dog social skills whatsoever because their owners never made any effort to socialize them and/or teach them what is acceptable behavior...the dogs who are running in circles while their pitiful owner chases after them for literally 15-20 minutes yelling "Lucky! Lucky you get over here! Oh you are in some trouble mister! Lucky! Lucky!!"...the dogs who bark incessantly because their owners have never taught them how to shut up....the dogs who jump all over people because their owners have never taught them otherwise...I could go on and on.
> 
> ...


 This time a million. Well said.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

lego said:


> YES. As long as this person wasn't outright being abusive to the animal then I don't see why that was a reason not to permit the adoption. These aren't kids we are talking about.
> Better in a home with a slightly ignorant person then stuck in a shelter waiting for this "perfect" home.


If a potential adopter alpha rolled one of my fosters in front of me, no, I would not permit the adoption, and no, I should not feel obligated by that logic. The point of placing a dog is not place a dog any where you can and maybe down the line end up with a dog that now has a bite record or is brain fried. I don't care if there are x dogs that get rolled on a frequent basis and are just fine. It's a stupid, simple risk I can avoid exposing a dog to if the idiot adopter does it right in front of me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

lego said:


> I didn't read anything in the original post about dog smacking.





> Joyce Marriott, chair of trustees, defended her staff’s decision and condemned techniques used by Miss Hojer during the meeting, which included forcing the animal to the ground and *slapping its back legs.*


But I would put pinning in the same category as smacking anyway.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Thanks Willowy! That's the post I was gonna grab.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Was this a foster situation or a shelter situation? If it was a foster, fine! They have an awesome life that most dogs don't. 
If its a shelter-- one should weigh the pros and cons. 
I'm not above giving me dogs a firm smack from time to time but I do not believe in the Cesar Millan alpha bs.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

lego said:


> Was this a foster situation or a shelter situation? If it was a foster, fine! They have an awesome life that most dogs don't.
> If its a shelter-- one should weigh the pros and cons.
> I'm not above giving me dogs a firm smack from time to time but I do not believe in the Cesar Millan alpha bs.


The title even says it is a shelter, and you have no idea how that particular shelter is run, how long the dog has been there, or the dog's adoptability in general so no, there is no calling "just because he's in a shelter." Being in a shelter doesn't automatically equate to a piss poor life. There are shelters out there that give a crap about their animals and make sure they lead good, enriched lives while they're with them. This shelter sounds like it just might be one of them. 

You're not above CM BS if you're not above giving dogs a firm smack.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> The title even says it is a shelter, and you have no idea how that particular shelter is run, how long the dog has been there, or the dog's adoptability in general so no, there is no calling "just because he's in a shelter." Being in a shelter doesn't automatically equate to a piss poor life. There are shelters out there that give a crap about their animals and make sure they lead good, enriched lives while they're with them. This shelter sounds like it just might be one of them.
> 
> You're not above CM BS if you're not above giving dogs a firm smack.


I have smacked my dog on rare occasions (and trust me, I am not concerned with your opinions on that whatsoever), and by no means does my dog live a "piss poor life". 
How about this shelter attempting to educate this woman as opposed to scooting her out the door as soon as they disagree with the method of training? Give a man a fish- feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish-- feed him for a lifetime. 
Whether you or anyone else wants to believe it, dogs are dying left and right because of rescue snobbery such as this.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> ...dogs are dying left and right because of rescue snobbery such as this.


No, dogs are dying left and right because their owners weren't committed to them and turned them into shelters.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

sassafras said:


> No, dogs are dying left and right because their owners weren't committed to them and turned them into shelters.


 Yes that certainly gets the ball rolling. Then they have an opportunity for a home and well... they don't feed kibble (or raw), they use a chain spot, they crate, they refuse to vaccinate annually, they wish to keep intact for longer then 8 weeks, and they don't agree with training techniques.
It's idiotic.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> Yes that certainly gets the ball rolling. Then they have an opportunity for a home and well... they don't feed kibble (or raw), they use a chain spot, they crate, they refuse to vaccinate annually, they wish to keep intact for longer then 8 weeks, and they don't agree with training techniques.
> It's idiotic.


You're projecting a lot onto this rescue, when all you know about it is that they denied a woman for smacking and alpha rolling one of her dogs in front of them.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

sassafras said:


> You're projecting a lot onto this rescue, when all you know about it is that they denied a woman for smacking and alpha rolling one of her dogs in front of them.


She should not have done that. I'm not disagreeing with you. 
What I'm saying is that it is a stupid reason for being denied adoption (IMO). They could have educated her, they didn't. THAT I am not projecting.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I think what you were saying got lost in all of the extra words about kibble, vaccinations, and chains. 

In any case. This was not a disagreement over a training philosophy. This was disagreement over specific actions. I disagree that the actions in question weren't a "good enough" reason to deny her adoption. They can be risky and I'd question the judgment of someone using them. 

When you run a rescue, though, you can make up whatever rules you like for adopters... or none at all if you like.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

sassafras said:


> I think what you were saying got lost in all of the extra words about kibble, vaccinations, and chains.
> 
> In any case. This was not a disagreement over a training philosophy. This was disagreement over specific actions. I disagree that the actions in question weren't a "good enough" reason to deny her adoption. They can be risky and I'd question the judgment of someone using them.
> 
> When you run a rescue, though, you can make up whatever rules you like for adopters... or none at all if you like.


 Well we can certainly agree to disagree. That is your opinion and mine is different  
They can definitely deny adoption to whomever they choose , but they can rescue less dogs because of it. Which is the lesser of two evils? I know which one I think is...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> They can definitely deny adoption to whomever they choose , but they can rescue less dogs because of it.


Well, first of all, you don't know that their rules inherently lead them to rescuing fewer dogs. 
Second of all, their rules may very well lead to having fewer returns. 
Thirdly... it is not a rescue's job to move as many dogs as possible through their system as quickly as possible. It is to place the dogs they have chosen to take responsibility for into permanent homes. 

I have seen some crazy rules, like specifying a brand of food that must be fed, from rescues. So I think there is a line where things become counterproductive. But I've seen the opposite, too, where dogs go to the first person who shows up with the cash and often that doesn't end that great for the dog. And I'm not the one spending my emotional and mental energy, as well as my time, getting to know these dogs and caring where they end up. If I were, I'd probably be more sympathetic to some of their rules that right now as a potential adopter I find over the top.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

I think CptJack said it best in another post: Rescues/fosters don't have a duty to all homeless dogs...they have a duty to the dogs right in front of them. You can't _do_ rescue and have the weight of the entire homeless pet population on your shoulders. That is a recipe for burn out if I've ever seen one. What you can do is do right by the dogs in your program, ensuring they make it into situations that YOU deem appropriate.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

lego said:


> I have smacked my dog on rare occasions (and trust me, I am not concerned with your opinions on that whatsoever), and by no means does my dog live a "piss poor life".
> How about this shelter attempting to educate this woman as opposed to scooting her out the door as soon as they disagree with the method of training? Give a man a fish- feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish-- feed him for a lifetime.
> Whether you or anyone else wants to believe it, dogs are dying left and right because of rescue snobbery such as this.


If you're not concerned, I suppose you don't have any reason to respond to me?  I also don't know where you read in what I said that your dog in particular has a bad life because I clearly said shelter dogs many times and.. nothing about your dog. I don't even know any thing about your dog as you're a fairly new poster. 

Are you aware they did not educate her at the center? What happened in the conversation they had with her, I can't find it in the article. 

And like Sass said, dogs are not dying because of rescue snobbery. In this case, the dog wasn't in danger of being promptly euthanized and the logic "If you have one dog and don't adopt him out you're not making room for other dogs" is nonsense. That's like saying because I am only capable of owning 5 dogs other dogs are dying because I haven't adopted more.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Well, first of all, you don't know that their rules inherently lead them to rescuing fewer dogs.
> Second of all, their rules may very well lead to having fewer returns.
> Thirdly... it is not a rescue's job to move as many dogs as possible through their system as quickly as possible. It is to place the dogs they have chosen to take responsibility for into permanent homes.
> 
> I have seen some crazy rules, like specifying a brand of food that must be fed, from rescues. So I think there is a line where things become counterproductive. But I've seen the opposite, too, where dogs go to the first person who shows up with the cash and often that doesn't end that great for the dog. And I'm not the one spending my emotional and mental energy, as well as my time, getting to know these dogs and caring where they end up. If I were, I'd probably be more sympathetic to some of their rules that right now as a potential adopter I find over the top.


 I agree with some of your points. Others I don't. I'm going to step out of this thread as I have no further opinions then what I've already stated.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Well, first of all, you don't know that their rules inherently lead them to rescuing fewer dogs.
> Second of all, their rules may very well lead to having fewer returns.
> Thirdly... it is not a rescue's job to move as many dogs as possible through their system as quickly as possible. It is to place the dogs they have chosen to take responsibility for into permanent homes.
> 
> I have seen some crazy rules, like specifying a brand of food that must be fed, from rescues. So I think there is a line where things become counterproductive. But I've seen the opposite, too, where dogs go to the first person who shows up with the cash and often that doesn't end that great for the dog. And I'm not the one spending my emotional and mental energy, as well as my time, getting to know these dogs and caring where they end up. If I were, I'd probably be more sympathetic to some of their rules that right now as a potential adopter I find over the top.


They may have less returns but they also may have less adoptions as well.

Some rescues have ridiculous standards, what qualifies as a "smack" to one person may not be to another. Sometimes I will "touch" my dogs to get their attention, to some people it may look like a "jab" but as long as it doesn't traumatize the dog then what is the problem? ... IMHO.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> They may have less returns but they also may have less adoptions as well.


If one group has 100 adoptions and 50 are returned, and another group has 50 adoptions and none are returned, then which one is the "better" rescue?


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> They may have less returns but they also may have less adoptions as well.
> 
> Some rescues have ridiculous standards, what qualifies as a "smack" to one person may not be to another. Sometimes I will "touch" my dogs to get their attention, *to some people it may look like a "jab" but as long as it doesn't traumatize the dog then what is the problem*? ... IMHO.


I know I said I was done with this thread but I do agree with the bold. For example: I've seen what some people consider a "hit" or a "kick" concerning Cesar Millan, and for the most part I completely disagree. He is using what I would consider a firm touch to get the dog's attention. 
FYI- I do not use Cesar Millan's methods, not do I advocate them. I also don't hate the man or think that he should be shot (as some extremists believe). I think he genuinely loves his dogs and that his methods work for him. 
I am not above using physical reprimands on my dog when they are needed. I don't do it in anger/high emotion. That was in the beginning of mine and my dog's relationship but now, I just need to use a stern AH AH and she listens immediately. 
Dogs use physical touch with each other all of the time. Why not use that primal reflex/understanding when training your own dog? To each their own I suppose... I respect opposing opinions. 
Sassafras-- how do you know there is a highly likelihood of returns? Seems like you are making assumptions now. What is good for the gander...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> Sassafras-- how do you know there is a highly likelihood of returns? Seems like you are making assumptions now. What is good for the gander...


I don't. That's why I used qualifiers like "may" and "if." 

If anyone cared enough, I'm sure they could get that data from organizations and see if there are trends, and put an end to all the speculation.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

lego said:


> Dogs use physical touch with each other all of the time. Why not use that primal reflex/understanding when training your own dog? To each their own I suppose... I respect opposing opinions.


The problem is that people use all sorts of techniques that they _believe_ dogs use... but mother dogs do not correct their pups by biting and shaking the neck, and dogs do not roll each other over, and dogs do not pin each other unless they're in a serious fight, and on and on and on. If people were using techniques truly based on what dogs do, and if they could do it well enough that the dog understood what they wanted, that would be one thing... but the reality is not like that.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> The problem is that people use all sorts of techniques that they _believe_ dogs use... but mother dogs do not correct their pups by biting and shaking the neck, and dogs do not roll each other over, and dogs do not pin each other unless they're in a serious fight, and on and on and on. If people were using techniques truly based on what dogs do, and if they could do it well enough that the dog understood what they wanted, that would be one thing... but the reality is not like that.


 I don't think mother dogs ponder where to grab their pups. They react and only use enough force to jolt them out of the unwanted behaviour. I agree with you about alpha rolling, though.
I was also not just talking about mother dog to pups. I'm talking about one dog to another-- take resource guarding for instance. The dog will give the eye/stiff body language- if that doesn't work, the dog will vocalize- if that doesn't work, the dog will attack PHYSICALLY. Dogs understand this.
I don't recommend training this way to most people but if you have good timing and can read dog body language/calming signals properly... you can execute this way of training efficiently.
It also depends on the dog! If you have a very soft dog, I wouldn't use this method. I'll repeat-- I do NOT believe in alpha rolling.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

lego said:


> It also depends on the dog! If you have a very soft dog, I wouldn't use this method. I'll repeat-- I do NOT believe in alpha rolling.


YES, it hugely depends on the dog. I am very much against the alpha roll, but a tap on the butt, or a tug on the leash. Some dogs just don't care! I've given Caeda a small smack on the butt or shoulder to get her attention...though honestly, she likes being petted hard, and when I've done it to get her attention, it's never harder then the petting version. Honestly she smucks herself in the side of the head harder than I would ever tough her when she prances around with the tug and shakes it. Another dog, Dexer for instance, you couldn't pet him solidly when he came to us (same size as Caeda roughly), you couldn't even raise your hand up to even brush back your own hair, he was so hand shy, which he has thankfully gotten over very well. 

Basically, if I were in that rescue's shoes, and that lady came in and wanted a dog like Caeda (though one that wouldn't escalate in the face of the dominance BS) I wouldn't be so worried. I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't be worried about her damaging the dog....whereas if she was looking at a dog like Dexter was when he came to us, I'd tell her to take a hike. Sure....both dogs that I've got need rules and such to live by (a leader if you want to speak in CM terms), but a lady like the one in the original post would turn the "early Dexter" into a terrified mess, actually even now he would probably regress under a person like that. A tougher dog (like Caeda without the urge to escalate dominance) would probably do alright.....better than with a person who wants a living lawn ornament.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

I saw someone alpha rolling her dog in a dog park, surrounded by other dogs...I could not believe, anyone would be so utterly ignorant and clueless to actually do that in a dog park...the alpha roll is something that is best left with Cesar... in my opinion. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> They may have less returns but they also may have less adoptions as well.
> 
> Some rescues have ridiculous standards, what qualifies as a "smack" to one person may not be to another. Sometimes I will "touch" my dogs to get their attention, *to some people it may look like a "jab" but as long as it doesn't traumatize the dog then what is the problem*? ... IMHO.


Really? You set your limit at "traumatising" your dog? You can hurt a dog quite a lot before it's actually "traumatised" by the event, so there's quite a big problem with that for me.

If a rescue sees a person "traumatising" a dog, then of course they shouldn't be adopting out to that person. I do think there should be some leniency in adopting out to people who will sometimes use corrections (as long as the person is experienced and know what they're doing and aren't just doing it to copy a famous trainer), and I think a better way to handle the situation is to include reward based training classes in the adoption price, so people can learn how to train better, rather than just not adopt out to people who don't train exactly the way the shelter would like. But of course it's up to the shelter who they want to adopt out to, people aren't entitled to adopt just because they show up with cash, I completely agree with not adopting out to someone who uses CM's methods.

I used to not be 100% against corrections in training, but the more I learn about positive training and the more experience I get working with other people's "problem dogs", the more ridiculous it seems to blame/punish a dog for its behaviour. Dogs are a result of their upbringing and training. If your dog misbehaves, you haven't taught your dog how to behave. How is it fair to punish the dog for that? When I've worked with dogs who misbehave, it's always the owners who are at fault. All of the dogs I've worked with have responded immediately to positive training, and I've worked with fearful and aggressive dogs, and also done a lot of obedience training with breeds who are considered "stubborn". The fix is always to change what the owner is doing. The dog just needs to be taught what we want it to do, which is super easy with reward based methods. (Avoidance training not included). For the record, I've yet to meet a dog who was actually stubborn. When people tell me they have a stubborn dog, I always assume it's a motivation issue, and all of the stubborn breeds I've worked with have responded just as quickly as the biddable breeds, and in some cases quicker.


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## ackerleynelson (Feb 1, 2013)

It is good and more and more shelters should do this.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

lil_fuzzy said:


> Really? You set your limit at "traumatising" your dog? You can hurt a dog quite a lot before it's actually "traumatised" by the event, so there's quite a big problem with that for me.
> 
> If a rescue sees a person "traumatising" a dog, then of course they shouldn't be adopting out to that person. I do think there should be some leniency in adopting out to people who will sometimes use corrections (as long as the person is experienced and know what they're doing and aren't just doing it to copy a famous trainer), and I think a better way to handle the situation is to include reward based training classes in the adoption price, so people can learn how to train better, rather than just not adopt out to people who don't train exactly the way the shelter would like. But of course it's up to the shelter who they want to adopt out to, people aren't entitled to adopt just because they show up with cash, I completely agree with not adopting out to someone who uses CM's methods.
> 
> I used to not be 100% against corrections in training, but the more I learn about positive training and the more experience I get working with other people's "problem dogs", the more ridiculous it seems to blame/punish a dog for its behaviour. Dogs are a result of their upbringing and training. If your dog misbehaves, you haven't taught your dog how to behave. How is it fair to punish the dog for that? When I've worked with dogs who misbehave, it's always the owners who are at fault. All of the dogs I've worked with have responded immediately to positive training, and I've worked with fearful and aggressive dogs, and also done a lot of obedience training with breeds who are considered "stubborn". The fix is always to change what the owner is doing. The dog just needs to be taught what we want it to do, which is super easy with reward based methods. (Avoidance training not included). For the record, I've yet to meet a dog who was actually stubborn. When people tell me they have a stubborn dog, I always assume it's a motivation issue, and all of the stubborn breeds I've worked with have responded just as quickly as the biddable breeds, and in some cases quicker.


See I don't entirely agree. While I don't condone cruel or abusive methods such as alpha rolling, hanging & "kick touching", I do believe that some dogs need a negative consequence, I use time outs & loss of privileges coupled with positive methods. For some ACDs simply ignoring the undesired behavior can make them think its ok lol.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> See I don't entirely agree. While I don't condone cruel or abusive methods such as alpha rolling, hanging & "kick touching", I do believe that some dogs need a negative consequence, I use time outs & loss of privileges coupled with positive methods. For some ACDs simply ignoring the undesired behavior can make them think its ok lol.


First of all, I think most positive trainers use time outs and loss of privileges. You always say "ignoring undesired behavior". Who ignores undesired behavior? I've had ACD's and ACD mixes. They are not some magical creatures. They are just dogs. They can be bossy and sharp at times and may require more consistancy, but I've never had to jab my dog in the side to get his attention. I have and sometimes still do tap my dog on the head or back, much like someone tapping a person on the shoulder.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There is (imo) a difference between a physical punishment (like an alpha roll or a 'smack') vs a 'hey, i'm talking to you!' touch. I'll tap my dogs on the back if they're zoning out so that they look at me and cue back in so I can redirect. I'll also use physical means to manage a dangerous situation. Not the same as punishment. 

Positive trianing =/= ignore. Most positive trainers use verbal corrections to SOME extent. There are some extremes that don't. My dogs get negative feedback- 'whoops'- not what I wanted/try again. 'Eh eh!'- cut that out. 

All positive trainers I know use times outs and negative consequences. You didn't do your work? Too bad, now you don't get to play. Etc. There is no ignore.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> There is (imo) a difference between a physical punishment (like an alpha roll or a 'smack') vs a 'hey, i'm talking to you!' touch. I'll tap my dogs on the back if they're zoning out so that they look at me and cue back in so I can redirect. I'll also use physical means to manage a dangerous situation. Not the same as punishment.
> 
> Positive trianing =/= ignore. Most positive trainers use verbal corrections to SOME extent. There are some extremes that don't. My dogs get negative feedback- 'whoops'- not what I wanted/try again. 'Eh eh!'- cut that out.
> 
> All positive trainers I know use times outs and negative consequences. You didn't do your work? Too bad, now you don't get to play. Etc. There is no ignore.



SO totally agree. I consider myself a positive trainer. I brought home a 7 week old puppy in January. I did not and could not for his safety ignore some of his puppy behavior. As I stated I also will tap my dog to get his attention in highly distracting situations. I've built a relationship based on trust with my dog. As soon as he looks at me I give him the command I want him do and we move on. I guarentee though there is very little ignoring of bad behavior.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> There is (imo) a difference between a physical punishment (like an alpha roll or a 'smack') vs a 'hey, i'm talking to you!' touch. I'll tap my dogs on the back if they're zoning out so that they look at me and cue back in so I can redirect. I'll also use physical means to manage a dangerous situation. Not the same as punishment.
> 
> Positive trianing =/= ignore. Most positive trainers use verbal corrections to SOME extent. There are some extremes that don't. My dogs get negative feedback- 'whoops'- not what I wanted/try again. 'Eh eh!'- cut that out.
> 
> All positive trainers I know use times outs and negative consequences. You didn't do your work? Too bad, now you don't get to play. Etc. There is no ignore.


That's all I was saying, it's more of a "tap" with my finger or hand, or a pat on their backs.

Cattledog fanatic: what are you talking about? Of course they are ... They are the only breed bad ass enough to be in a Mas Max movie


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> There is (imo) a difference between a physical punishment (like an alpha roll or a 'smack') vs a 'hey, i'm talking to you!' touch. I'll tap my dogs on the back if they're zoning out so that they look at me and cue back in so I can redirect. I'll also use physical means to manage a dangerous situation. Not the same as punishment.
> 
> Positive trianing =/= ignore. Most positive trainers use verbal corrections to SOME extent. There are some extremes that don't. My dogs get negative feedback- 'whoops'- not what I wanted/try again. 'Eh eh!'- cut that out.
> 
> All positive trainers I know use times outs and negative consequences. You didn't do your work? Too bad, now you don't get to play. Etc. There is no ignore.


 But-- a "hey I'm talking to you touch" is different for every dog. Would I smack a Papillon like I would a "pit bull"...? Absolutely not. 
Some dogs are "harder" then others. Some breeds/individuals will not respond to positive reinforcement like others will. I would love to see some people attempting to lure, click, treat an APBT when they are full fledged attempting to KILL another dog. It would be highly entertaining. 
Some dogs need different training methods then most others. Would positive reinforcement/luring and capturing been enough for my late Poodle? Yep. My late JRT bitch? Yep. My pit bull mutt... not so much. Trust me-- you'll be glad I gave my dog a thump when it's trying to rip your little chihuahua's trachea out... I can guarantee you that.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

But you can't use ANY kind of training when a dog is in "kill mode". All you can do is manage the situation. A choke chain isn't going to be any more useful than a clicker. . .unless it helps you pull them off easier. I doubt a "thump" makes any difference either. The dog isn't in a learning frame of mind. It's purely disaster control at that point.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> See I don't entirely agree. While I don't condone cruel or abusive methods such as alpha rolling, hanging & "kick touching", I do believe that some dogs need a negative consequence, I use time outs & loss of privileges coupled with positive methods. For some ACDs simply ignoring the undesired behavior can make them think its ok lol.


Same goes for my dogs. If you don't use very clear communication it can very fast result into bleeding fingers. I have a female that is so highly driven that she will just go for the object no matter what. ANYTHING that moves is an object of interest. When I first got that female she had no training whatsoever, it was raw drive and you couldn't even hand a ball from one person to another without her just going forward after the dog. 

One day we were out training and my friend had a ball on a string in her pocket. She walked away and my dog spotted that string. She went straight after my friend, ripped through the jacket to get to the ball. There was no holding back. What do you do with a dog like that? She did not know what she was doing wrong, nobody ever taught her any rules, obedience or self-control... I could have physically punished her. Instead she went into the crate, which for her was a form of punishment and she was not taken off leash, nor taken into public until she had learned the rules. 

We learned about Crate Games, something I never even heard of before and we practiced them for weeks. It is exactly what this dog needed. She learned to control herself but even crate games, while a positive game uses punishment. What the punishment is? The door of the crate shuts closed if they get up. They are confined in a space and can't go anywhere so they have to decide for themselves what is more beneficial and they will figure out rather quickly that it doesn't help them if they constantly get up to give into their urge to go after the ball, or tug. 

It is an absolutely amazing concept and it will translate into everything. Sport, every day life, in the car, at doors, long down, long sit, anything. 

Any dog going through this house, will go through crate games. Especially the higher driven dogs without any self control. I realize Crate Games was mainly developed for Agility but it is the most valuable training you could possibly put onto your dog. In the beginning I was like "What do we need this for? This is stupid." but I went with it and I'm definitely sold. 

It is the perfect example of using clear communication with your dog. "If you get up, the door closes and you don't get out of the crate." 
So they decide for themselves it's better to stay while the frustration builds up and once you let them out, they literally explode. And it becomes so much fun for them to do.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Willowy said:


> But you can't use ANY kind of training when a dog is in "kill mode". All you can do is manage the situation. A choke chain isn't going to be any more useful than a clicker. . .unless it helps you pull them off easier. The dog isn't in a learning frame of mind. It's purely disaster control at that point.


I don't use a choke chain. If we use a level of 1-10 (one being best, ten being worst). If my dogs at a 6-7 and I give her a little smack and an AH AH. She will leave well enough alone. Treats, physical affection, play time-- none of these work (even at a level 2-3). What would be rewarding for her, is a kill. 
So it is either I give her a smack (trust me, she is not traumatized) or my dog attempts to kill another dog. 
It also depends on what kind of relationship you wish to have with your dog. If you want a fur child, maybe this is not the way. If you want to have a servant- it works. I don't mind being master of my household...
I'm not too narcissistic, trust me  I also own a cat... LOL


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Pit bulls respond pretty darn well to positive reinforcement when training something. There is one in one of my classes.  He's a cool dog.

A dog trying to kill another dog is not in a situation where you can train- that doesn't matter what breed the dog is. You're doing disaster control at that point. I've told the story before but once Mia acted like she was going to jump up into the stove and I kicked her. Not to teach her anything but to keep her from getting hurt. Management situations aren't training. 

When our GSD decided he was going to kill a dog for getting in his yard... there was no training there. You're doing damage control at that point.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Ugh, having servants doesn't appeal to me. Nor does having children. I want my dogs to be partners in whatever we want to do. If I couldn't figure out how to do that without smacking them, I wouldn't bother at all. No point in it.

But yeah. Disaster control sometimes means you do stuff you wouldn't normally do. Like, if your friend was about to be hit by a car, you'd pull her out of the road by her hair if you had to. But pulling your friend by the hair in non-emergency situations is a good way to not have a friend .


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I agree... When two dogs or your dog is in "kill mode" it's not about training at that point & more about keeping YOUR dog away from the other dog as well as preventing a possible redirect bite.

Of course true DA / aggression should not be confused with barrier / leash frustration that CAN be managed with training.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> But-- a "hey I'm talking to you touch" is different for every dog. Would I smack a Papillon like I would a "pit bull"...? Absolutely not.
> Some dogs are "harder" then others. Some breeds/individuals will not respond to positive reinforcement like others will. I would love to see some people attempting to lure, click, treat an APBT when they are full fledged attempting to KILL another dog. It would be highly entertaining.
> Some dogs need different training methods then most others. Would positive reinforcement/luring and capturing been enough for my late Poodle? Yep. My late JRT bitch? Yep. My pit bull mutt... not so much. Trust me-- you'll be glad I gave my dog a thump when it's trying to rip your little chihuahua's trachea out... I can guarantee you that.


I agree with what Willowy said. At that point, you're no longer training and just trying to get control of the situation; regardless of the training method you use. The dog isn't in a frame of mind to learn.

The PR method to prevent that situation would be to teach the dog to ignore the other dog, by working far enough away that the dog isn't yet reacting to the other, then gradually decreasing the distance to the stimulus (in this case another dog). Basically, 'look at me' training.

I work with DA pits all the time, I'm not going to try and train them while walking them feet from kenneled dogs who are flipping out because THEY wanted to be the one to go outside. That's just silly, it's way too chaotic. I just keep them moving until we're away from the stimulus.

ETA: we train all of our shelter dogs with PR, many of which are pits and mixes. Pits tend to respond REALLY well to PR training.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MaDeuce said:


> Same goes for my dogs. If you don't use very clear communication it can very fast result into bleeding fingers. I have a female that is so highly driven that she will just go for the object no matter what. ANYTHING that moves is an object of interest. When I first got that female she had no training whatsoever, it was raw drive and you couldn't even hand a ball from one person to another without her just going forward after the dog.
> 
> One day we were out training and my friend had a ball on a string in her pocket. She walked away and my dog spotted that string. She went straight after my friend, ripped through the jacket to get to the ball. There was no holding back. What do you do with a dog like that? She did not know what she was doing wrong, nobody ever taught her any rules, obedience or self-control... I could have physically punished her. Instead she went into the crate, which for her was a form of punishment and she was not taken off leash, nor taken into public until she had learned the rules.
> 
> ...


Crate games is awesome! It helped my dog a lot through very different impulse issues. We use it a lot in agility but I hadn't heard of it until I switched to the training club I'm at. It really does seem to clear up the ambiguity for a lot of dogs. Door closing is a pretty obvious thing to the dog.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I agree with what Willowy said. At that point, you're no longer training and just trying to get control of the situation; regardless of the training method you use. The dog isn't in a frame of mind to learn.
> 
> The PR method to prevent that situation would be to teach the dog to ignore the other dog, by working far enough away that the dog isn't yet reacting to the other, then gradually decreasing the distance to the stimulus (in this case another dog). Basically, 'look at me' training.
> 
> I work with DA pits all the time, I'm not going to try and train them while walking them feet from kenneled dogs who are flipping out because THEY wanted to be the one to go outside. That's just silly, it's way too chaotic. I just keep them moving until we're away from the stimulus.


 That said dog could be miles away.... wouldn't mean a thing. 
Look, I'm not going to try to explain DA from a bull/terrier breed to anyone here because you don't know until you know. 
What I will say is this- I do not know everything about dog training. I don't even think I know the tip of the iceberg. What I DO KNOW is that my dog is physically corrected at times and she is healthy/balanced/loved. 
When I do what I do, it is not only to keep my dog (and her breed's reputation) safe... it also keeping all of YOUR dogs safe as well. 
I do not wish to use positive reinforcement 100% of the time. I use positive punishment COMBINED with positive reinforcement. This works for me. 
If it hurts someone's feeling, oh well. It is my dog (my property) and I do with her what I wish.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> That said dog could be miles away.... wouldn't mean a thing.
> Look, I'm not going to try to explain DA from a bull/terrier breed to anyone here because you don't know until you know.
> What I will say is this- I do not know everything about dog training. I don't even think I know the tip of the iceberg. What I DO KNOW is that my dog is physically corrected at times and she is healthy/balanced/loved.
> When I do what I do, it is not only to keep my dogs (and her breed's reputation) safe... it also keeping all of YOUR dogs safe as well.
> ...


I'm curious as to why you think nobody on this board knows anything about DA? Just speaking for other members I know many who are well versed in the topic and have tons of experience.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I'm curious as to why you think nobody on this board knows anything about DA? Just speaking for other members I know many who are well versed in the topic and have tons of experience.


 I didn't mean to imply that and I apologize if I did. 
Remember that DA in APBT's is different then say a Lab retriever for instance. Worlds of difference. That is what I'm attempting to say...


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> I didn't mean to imply that and I apologize if I did.
> Remember that DA in APBT's is different then say a Lab retriever for instance. Worlds of difference. That is what I'm attempting to say...


Okay so perhaps I should have clarified... what makes you think nobody on this forum knows anything about DA in pits?


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Crate games is awesome! It helped my dog a lot through very different impulse issues. We use it a lot in agility but I hadn't heard of it until I switched to the training club I'm at. It really does seem to clear up the ambiguity for a lot of dogs. Door closing is a pretty obvious thing to the dog.


Absolutely. I don't think it gets any more clear than that and it is the perfect example how negative and positive reinforcement can be used and clear it up for the dog. Interestingly I have learned it from an IPO Trainer and I wouldn't want to have it missing in my toolbox.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Okay so perhaps I should have clarified... what makes you think nobody on this forum knows anything about DA in pits?


 I just said that I didn't mean to imply that. You quoted it, and so you must have read it..?
That being said- most don't.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

lego said:


> That said dog could be miles away.... wouldn't mean a thing.
> Look, I'm not going to try to explain DA from a bull/terrier breed to anyone here because you don't know until you know.
> What I will say is this- I do not know everything about dog training. I don't even think I know the tip of the iceberg. What I DO KNOW is that my dog is physically corrected at times and she is healthy/balanced/loved.
> When I do what I do, it is not only to keep my dog (and her breed's reputation) safe... it also keeping all of YOUR dogs safe as well.
> ...


I know about DA / SSA (same sex aggression) in dogs, I have a terrier, a jack Russell terrier so I do know & know that true DA looks like.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> I just said that I didn't mean to imply that. You quoted it, and so you must have read it..?
> That being said- most don't.


You said "Look, I'm not going to try to explain DA from a bull/terrier breed to anyone here because you don't know until you know"

My question is why are you presuming that most of the people here have no idea what DA in bull/terrier breeds looks like? That's a pretty bold statement to make of a community you have JUST joined.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> You said "Look, I'm not going to try to explain DA from a bull/terrier breed to anyone here because you don't know until you know"
> 
> My question is why are you presuming that most of the people here have no idea what DA in bull/terrier breeds looks like? That's a pretty bold statement to make of a community you have JUST joined.


Yes LOL! And those on here that know- know! That is what I meant to say the entire time but I may have phrased it incorrectly.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> You said "Look, I'm not going to try to explain DA from a bull/terrier breed to anyone here because you don't know until you know"
> 
> My question is why are you presuming that most of the people here have no idea what DA in bull/terrier breeds looks like? That's a pretty bold statement to make of a community you have JUST joined.


She never said that anyone wouldn't know. She never implied that there was no one on here that wouldn't know. She merely said that she is not going to explain it because if you do not know or have not seen it first hand, you don't know what it is and basically doesn't want to take the time to explain it. 

I never understood it the way that she claimed that there is no one on here that doesn't know true DA in Bully breeds. If you know, you know.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I know about DA / SSA (same sex aggression) in dogs, I have a terrier, a jack Russell terrier so I do know & know that true DA looks like.


 Then you know. :rockon:



MaDeuce said:


> She never said that anyone wouldn't know. She never implied that there was no one on here that wouldn't know. She merely said that she is not going to explain it because if you do not know or have not seen it first hand, you don't know what it is and basically doesn't want to take the time to explain it.
> 
> I never understood it the way that she claimed that there is no one on here that doesn't know true DA in Bully breeds. If you know, you know.


 Thank you. Lol


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

If that wasn't the way it was intended then I apologize (aside from the fact that you did claim it in a subsequent post).

Regardless, nobody was saying DA in pits doesn't happen or isn't a legitimate issue. We were saying that using a 'tap' (of whatever intensity you feel is necessary) isn't training, it's distraction or redirection so that you can get back to the training.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Lego:

I must ask, do you have an APBT (as in with a pedigree and registration papers) or do you have a "pitbull"? There is a difference and it would clarify some things for me.

Secondly, I'm confused how any amount of physical correction will "stop" a truly DA pitbull? I have a plain old pitbull who I would never claim is truly DA, because he lives with 3 other dogs and seems to get along well with certain dogs he is properly introduced to. BUT he is highly dog selective and when he doesn't like a dog...well his opinion is that said dog should be eliminated. It doesn't matter how near or far that dog may be and there is zero, zip, zilch I could physically do to him to persuade him otherwise. I suppose I could choke and/or beat him into unconsciousness and that would curtail his intensity, but short of cutting off the oxygen flow to his brain I can't think of any physical correction that could be effective. 

That seems to hold fairly true with every DA and dog selective pit and pit-mix I have ever met. They were bred specifically to work/fight through intense physical pain so it does not make any sense to me that they would "give up" simply from a mere "thump". 

Now I have another bull breed who is also dog selective and there ARE situations where I can physically correct him and get his attention focused back on me. Yes, that does mean more than a tap...far closer to a "thump". There is a night and day difference between the two dog selectivities. I must reiterate, in my experience when a truly DA or DS pit is "on" removal is the ONLY way to calm them down.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> If that wasn't the way it was intended then I apologize (aside from the fact that you did claim it in a subsequent post).
> 
> Regardless, nobody was saying DA in pits doesn't happen or isn't a legitimate issue. We were saying that using a 'tap' (of whatever intensity you feel is necessary) isn't training, it's distraction or redirection so that you can get back to the training.


 Well then I don't train my dogs lol. I distract them...
This thread has gone OT. My opinion (which is the very definition of a public forum-- accumulated opinions) is that I disagree with this woman being denied adoption of the dog. If they had personal training preferences, then they could state that and create some type of agreement. They could also educate her on different methods of training-- or shown proof of how Cesar Millan's methods are slightly old school and not necessarily productive. Trust me-- if she was that much of a zealot, she would have left that shelter in a huff anyway! lol
I can't speak for her character (as I obviously do not know her) but is she IS a good person and DOES treat dogs well (treating dogs well obviously being subjective on this board) then I hope she can adopt from another facility. If not-- thank goodness for kijiji and Craigslist.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Emmett said:


> Lego:
> 
> I must ask, do you have an APBT (as in with a pedigree and registration papers) or do you have a "pitbull"? There is a difference and it would clarify some things for me.
> 
> ...


 If I had a registered APBT then I would refer to her as an APBT. She is a pit bull mutt. 
I agree with you-- if they are at a level 10, removal is the ONLY way. Luckily, my thumping works if she is at a mid-level. She is by no means as DA as some pit bulls can be (thinking from game bred lines). 
I will also smack if her is she is being willfully obtuse. She will KNOW what I am saying and chooses not to obey. Is that a flaw in my training (or lackthereof) possibly but I'm ok with it


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> See I don't entirely agree. While I don't condone cruel or abusive methods such as alpha rolling, hanging & "kick touching", I do believe that some dogs need a negative consequence, I use time outs & loss of privileges coupled with positive methods. For some ACDs simply ignoring the undesired behavior can make them think its ok lol.


As we've pointed out to you many, many times now, that is part of positive training. You keep making statements like this as if ACDs are magical dogs that need a special kind of negative consequence, but I do the exact same thing with my papillon and AKK, and there are members here who do the same thing with everything from chihuahuas to pit bulls.



lego said:


> Some dogs are "harder" then others. Some breeds/individuals will not respond to positive reinforcement like others will. I would love to see some people attempting to lure, click, treat an APBT when they are full fledged attempting to KILL another dog. It would be highly entertaining.


Trying to train ANY dog when it's over threshold like that would be stupid. If a dog of any breed is that fixated, treats are meaningless to them at that point in time. Any owner who tried to train a dog who was in fight or flight mode would be a bad trainer. Like others have said, it's all about management at that point.

Pits respond very well to positive training, and yes, I do have pit bull experience. I don't own one myself, but my younger brother does, and they lived with us for a couple of years.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> As we've pointed out to you many, many times now, that is part of positive training. You keep making statements like this as if ACDs are magical dogs that need a special kind of negative consequence, but I do the exact same thing with my papillon and AKK, and there are members here who do the same thing with everything from chihuahuas to pit bulls.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not saying positive training doesn't work. I'm saying it doesn't work for me. 
I wish you would all go to pitbullchat.com, ya'll would learn some things lol


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Once you've lurked here a little more, you will realize just how many of our regulars own pit bulls, foster pit bulls, work with pit bull rescues, do SAR with pit bulls, and even breed pit bulls. Maybe you will learn some things.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Once you've lurked here a little more, you will realize just how many of our regulars own pit bulls, foster pit bulls, work with pit bull rescues, do SAR with pit bulls, and even breed pit bulls. Maybe you will learn some things.


If there was a like button I would click it.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

Just curious, Lego...

What would you do if your dog one day turns around and takes a chunk out of you due to re-directed aggression from you smacking him/her one as behavior management?

I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm genuinely interested in hearing how you would handle it if your dog decided to retaliate or if you came across a dog that did.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Just an FYI-- my husband and I will frequently go up to her and smack her pretty hard as a joke. She LOVES IT. She will butt wiggle all around and back her butt up for another. 
She is not traumatized by it in any way! She will even offer her backside for more. 
What "traumatizes" her is when you pair it with a grumpy voice and body language. Something like "that's about enough of that". We don't even HAVE to be physical at all. She pouts if we get a grumpy look. 
This is ALSO how dogs deal with one another. 
I don't beat my dog. I don't traumatize my dog. My dog is not scared of me. My dog is well rounded and happy. Isn't that what ALL homeless dogs hope for?



Entwine said:


> Just curious, Lego...
> 
> What would you do if your dog one day turns around and takes a chunk out of you due to re-directed aggression from you smacking him/her one as behavior management?
> 
> I'm not trying to be condescending. I'm genuinely interested in hearing how you would handle it if your dog decided to retaliate or if you came across a dog that did.


 Being the breed that she is- I would euthanize her.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> Just an FYI-- my husband and I will frequently go up to her and smack her pretty hard as a joke. She LOVES IT. She will butt wiggle all around and back her butt up for another.
> She is not traumatized by it in any way! She will even offer her backside for more.
> What "traumatizes" her is when you pair it with a grumpy voice and body language. Something like "that's about enough of that". We don't even HAVE to be physical at all. She pouts if we get a grumpy look.
> This is ALSO how dogs deal with one another.
> ...


So, you would euthanize her for responding to your aggressive advance (or "correction", however you want to phrase it) with aggression?


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Once you've lurked here a little more, you will realize just how many of our regulars own pit bulls, foster pit bulls, work with pit bull rescues, do SAR with pit bulls, and even breed pit bulls. Maybe you will learn some things.


 I just might! Nothing wrong with that


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Entwine said:


> So, you would euthanize her for responding to your aggressive advance (or "correction", however you want to phrase it) with aggression?


 If she "took a chunk out of me", you'd better damn well believe I would.
I'm not a soft owner, I'm very hard. Which is why I don't own a less tolerant breed- ACD is an example that comes to mind.
I also want to make clear-- I don't willy nilly hit my dog. I don't take every little thing that she does incorrectly and smack her. Only, *ONLY* when she is being willfully obtuse. 
She is 2 now and hasn't gotten a spank for over 6 months.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I always like when these threads devolve into telling us about how we don't know nothing about these ~*SUPER SPECIAL*~ dog breeds that need ~*SUPER SPECIAL*~ training.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I always like when these threads devolve into telling us about how we don't know nothing about these ~*SUPER SPECIAL*~ dog breeds that need ~*SUPER SPECIAL*~ training.


Come on TWAB, it's MAGICAL...and when you adopt/buy one you get a wand and a special pointy-hat.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I always like when these threads devolve into telling us about how we don't know nothing about these ~*SUPER SPECIAL*~ dog breeds that need ~*SUPER SPECIAL*~ training.


 I like your condescension/sarcasm. It's super witty. 
There are breeds/individuals that don't fit into your little "fur mommy" category. Sorry.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Haha, lego, you _really_ need to lurk more. 

TWAB, did you know you were a "fur mommy?" You big softy.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Oh, the "fur mommy" people. Yay.

As I said, I have no intention of having children. Furry or otherwise. But if I devolve into hitting a dog, I've already lost.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> If she "took a chunk out of me", you'd better damn well believe I would.
> I'm not a soft owner, I'm very hard. Which is why I don't own a less tolerant breed- ACD is an example that comes to mind.


Fair enough.

I don't consider myself a "soft" owner, either, but I certainly wouldn't aggressively punish a dog and then take away its life if it didn't crumble under my authority or accept the punishment. I might try to find ways to communicate with the dog that involved training and management to avoid such situations that would require something like a smack. I'd much rather not put the dog in a situation that it loses its mind so much that only a physical correction would be effective.

Mind you, I had a very leash reactive dog that no longer even LOOKS at other dogs on leash after extensive training and conditioning. I'm talking lunging/barking/screaming/snarling/etc. Then again, she is a Chihuahua, so I must know *nothing* about how to train dogs.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Oh, the "fur mommy" people. Yay.
> 
> As I said, I have no intention of having children. Furry or otherwise. But if I devolve into hitting a dog, I've already lost.


 Your perfection practically eminates through my ipad screen. TWABs too. 
Gee, if only I could bask in it longer. But alas, this thread has been dragged OT for too long and I'm now unwilling to drag it further. 
If you would like to further profess your absolute perfected methods of training and other perfect aspects of your/your dog's life- feel free to pm me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Ah, these threads go OT all the time. Nobody minds; it's what we do here. It's the fun part . 

And I'm not saying I'm perfect. Just that there are some things I wouldn't do. Or approve of. And, well, TWAB has an awful lot of dog experience, pit bulls too. She oughta know some things. 

You don't think calling people "fur mommies" is condescending/insulting? In my experience, only dog fighters/abusers/etc. use that phrase so you might want to rethink using it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> Your perfection practically eminates through my ipad screen. TWABs too.
> Gee, if only I can bask in it longer. But unfortunately, this thread has been dragged OT for too long and I'm now unwilling to drag it further.
> If you would like to further profess your absolute perfected methods of training and other perfect aspects of your/your dog's life- feel free to pm me.


You are kidding right? 

Not hitting a dog doesn't equate to never using any sort of correction ever and letting them do whatever the heck they feel like. It doesn't seem like you know much about PR training methods...

The fact that you claimed your dog wouldn't listen to you if there was another dog within a mile unless you 'thump' her spoke to that as well.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Haha, lego, you _really_ need to lurk more.
> 
> TWAB, did you know you were a "fur mommy?" You big softy.


I will certainly stay longer as long as dog abusers, such as myself, are still permitted.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> You are kidding right?
> 
> Not hitting a dog doesn't equate to never using any sort of correction ever and letting them do whatever the heck they feel like. It doesn't seem like you know much about PR training methods...
> 
> The fact that you claimed your dog wouldn't listen to you if there was another dog within a mile unless you 'thump' her spoke to that as well.


Nope. It means that I get things done in a quicker/easier way. I'm the lazy of "dog training". My dog is not a child. It is not a baby. It does not fart rainbows. My dog is a dog. If dogs don't mind correcting physically, neither do I. 
Now I am off. Have a good day ladies.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

"People think I'm being ridiculous and are laughing at me, so now I'm going to flounce!"

Many of us here have dealt with, or are dealing with, dogs with various issues -- issues that we want to manage or fix, not ignore because our dogs are our cute widdle fluffy babies or some crap like that. There are VERY few regulars on this forum who I would consider the "fur mommy" type. If you're going to try to insult people, at least try to be accurate!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Emmett said:


> Come on TWAB, it's MAGICAL...and when you adopt/buy one you get a wand and a special pointy-hat.


But what do the shoes look like? Do I get special shoes? 



lego said:


> I like your condescension/sarcasm. It's super witty.
> There are breeds/individuals that don't fit into your little "fur mommy" category. Sorry.


LOL



Crantastic said:


> Haha, lego, you _really_ need to lurk more.
> 
> TWAB, did you know you were a "fur mommy?" You big softy.


I mean, I knew I was a beautiful, special flower, but I guess I can extend my resume to "fur mommy" now.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

lego said:


> If she "took a chunk out of me", you'd better damn well believe I would.
> I'm not a soft owner, I'm very hard. Which is why I don't own a less tolerant breed- ACD is an example that comes to mind.
> I also want to make clear-- I don't willy nilly hit my dog. I don't take every little thing that she does incorrectly and smack her. Only, *ONLY* when she is being willfully obtuse.
> She is 2 now and hasn't gotten a spank for over 6 months.



So you would kill (euth) a dog for defending itself from a hit?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Flaming said:


> So you would kill (euth) a dog for defending itself from a hit?


And apparently being hit for puppy behaviors :/. I'm not sure a puppy can be "willfully obtuse".


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Flaming said:


> So you would kill (euth) a dog for defending itself from a hit?


 Sorry I have to get this one. 
My dog knows that when I smack her ass, I am not going to kill her. She knows that she does not sustain serious (or even minor) physical harm. She knows that when it is said and done, she will live. Pain free! She knows this because it has happened in the past. She KNOWS she will be ok. Just like a dog correcting another. 
I am in control. I am not emotional. I am not angry/frustrated/irritated. I am authoritative/calm/disciplinarian. 
If she were to lash out and cause me serious injurious harm KNOWING that she will not be at any serious risk from my tactics. She would be dead. Yep. 


I am not going to argue any further. Any more posts directed at me will be addressed if they are PM'd, if not... have at it. I brought this up KNOWING FULL WELL that people would flame me. Guess what? It does not change my views, nor my methods. 
I am happy with what I do. I explained what I do (if you didn't see specifics, read back). If you disagree, I respect that. 
I understand that there is a type of clique occurs when long standing members see opposing opinions from a new member. It is still very.... disrespectful. 
The condescension, the sarcasm. The demeaning and passive aggressive remarks. Where do the get you? 
Maybe conducting yourself with a bit of maturity and grace would get you further..? 
Best of luck ladies. I'm off of this thread.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> Your perfection practically eminates through my ipad screen. TWABs too.
> Gee, if only I can bask in it longer. But unfortunately, this thread has been dragged OT for too long and I'm now unwilling to drag it further.
> If you would like to further profess your absolute perfected methods of training and other perfect aspects of your/your dog's life- feel free to pm me.


Ok...here's another perspective. I own a St. Bernard/Belgian Malinois mix. He's like a huge Mal and I doubt he would fit your definition of "fur mommy" dog. I also do Schutzhund with him, again, doubt that would fit your idea of "fur mommy" owner. I consider myself a balanced trainer and will use aversives if needed.

That being said, I put a LOT of thought into how I train my dog. I first try to find a way to accomplish my goals using positive methods because I need a very close relationship with my dog for us to be able to do the things I want us to do together. I need him to trust me and to WANT to work with me. With that in mind, I don't just go hitting my dog or imposing my will upon him simply because I can. Why? Because things work a heck of a lot better when we're working as a team. He's more motivated to work and enjoys it more, which means he wants to do even more with me.

We deal with dogs all the time that are DA. In the vast majority of cases, a dog is DA because it is nervous or afraid of the other dog. The dog is barking and lunging because it is hoping that this display will scare off whatever it is afraid of and it will be able to avoid a confrontation. So...then you'd be smacking a dog that is already afraid and reinforcing the idea in that dog's mind that strange dogs appearing IS something to be afraid of. A smaller percentage of dogs are DA in prey drive. These are the dogs that really do want to fight and are eager for the confrontation. In prey drive, a dog's mind functions quite a bit differently than it does otherwise. We train dogs in prey drive and it's a lot like a human who is in fight mode, where they see red. So, then you'd be smacking a dog that is already amped up and it could turn and bite you without even thinking things through. That wouldn't be the dog's fault. We've had people bitten by their own dogs while working them in prey drive...the dog wasn't put down because the handler realized it was their fault for various reasons, most of which being that they made a mistake by reaching in and got caught by redirection.

All of this is much more complicated than, "Oh, my dog is trying to go after another dog...I'll smack him and make him obey me because I'm the MASTER."

And...why the heck does your avatar have you making the duck face? That's a little weird.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> KNOWING that she will not be at any serious risk from my tactics.


How does a dog know that kind of thing?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly my only thought in these threads is what training have you done with your dogs? Anything beyond just a pet? Just curious.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> Nope. It means that I get things done in a quicker/easier way. I'm the lazy of "dog training". My dog is not a child. It is not a baby. It does not fart rainbows. My dog is a dog. If dogs don't mind correcting physically, neither do I.
> Now I am off. Have a good day ladies.


Well, at least you are honest about being a lazy, sloppy trainer. It is a shame, though, that you don't want to learn anything more.

Oh...and physical corrections...completely work on the concept that the dog DOES mind them. Otherwise, they aren't an effective aversive. The dog has to find them unpleasant or they have no power as a negative consequence.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

lego said:


> I like your condescension/sarcasm. It's super witty.
> There are breeds/individuals that don't fit into your little "fur mommy" category. Sorry.


TWAB has fostered many, many dogs. Including Pitbulls. She knows what she's talking about. Most of the regulars here probably have more dog experience then you do. It's pretty bold to come on to a forum as newbie and start telling us all we have no idea what we're talking about.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I always like when these threads devolve into telling us about how we don't know nothing about these ~*SUPER SPECIAL*~ dog breeds that need ~*SUPER SPECIAL*~ training.


Or how positive trainers just ignore everything they don't like. Sigh. I'm laughing at the idea of you as a fur mommy, though.



lego said:


> If she "took a chunk out of me", you'd better damn well believe I would.


I want to ask you a serious question, has your dog ever actually gotten in a fight with another dog you've had to break up? I assure you, there is no amount of smacking in the world that will get their attention in that situation. Have you ever gotten a redirected bite from your pit? I also assure you, that smacking your dog after you do would not even register. 

BTDT.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I think it, depending on the dog, something like alpha rolling would be a serious concern but everyone here seems to agree with that. 

I don't necessarily think a smack on the butt is horrible. I've done so after my dog bit me after I reached under the bed while he was sleeping and he has a chewy under there with him. I was seriously mad and afterwords I actually went and apologized to my dog. (Regardless of whether or not he actually understood me lol). It was kind of an uncontrolled reaction that I didn't have enough time to think about. It was absolutely my fault and I should have known better but I didn't realize at the time. 

I don't think something as small as that would ever really traumatize most dogs though. My dog bounced back petty quickly and was actually giving me more attention and trying to jump up on me and lick me so obviously he wasn't afraid of me but whatever. 

I know someone that has literally spanked their dog with a belt after it went after their cat and it never did so again and that dog literally loved that person and was one of the most well behaved dogs until it's death at the age of 14. That was a pit mix, he was amazing. I don't necessarily agree with what that person did but it worked and the dog didn't seem to give a crap and wasn't traumatized so idk if I could really say that person shouldn't have ever owned a dog. He rescued that dog off the streets and I'm sure no shelter would have adopted that dog out to him knowing he would "spank" it into training but it worked for the relationship that person and dog had.

I know a pit mix that is terrified of darker skinned toned men and men wearing wife beaters. Literally pees itself and barks at them like a crazy dog until they sit on the couch and stop moving. In pretty sure if a person like that ever smacked that dog and he got bit he would deserve it. At the same time, I'm pretty sure the owner would smash a persons head into the wall before the dog even had a chance to bite him. A dog like that... You don't hit, smack, spank, whatever. That's dogs owned by the same person as the above dog. They found him on the streets and believe he was obviously very abused by his previous owner. It's really sad. Regardless if it's a pit bull, regardless if it ever goes after another dog or a cat, that dog will not be hit, there's no way you can train a dog like that with those type of methods.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> TWAB has fostered many, many dogs. Including Pitbulls. She knows what she's talking about. Most of the regulars here probably have more dog experience then you do. It's pretty bold to come on to a forum as newbie and start telling us all we have no idea what we're talking about.


Fur kids. I've fostered and worked with fur kids!! 



sassafras said:


> Or how positive trainers just ignore everything they don't like. Sigh. I'm laughing at the idea of you as a fur mommy, though.


I only wish this was a sitcom so we could have some sort of alternate universe flashes. Like ones where I'd be clutching my pearls and saying "Shammy please be good for mommy. Please, baby!"


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Once you've lurked here a little more, you will realize just how many of our regulars own pit bulls, foster pit bulls, work with pit bull rescues, do SAR with pit bulls, and even breed pit bulls. Maybe you will learn some things.


Absolutely, some of the nicest SAR dogs are PitBulls, Rottweilers, Dobermans... I even know of a Mantrailing Wolfdog in Germany, which has got to be one of THE most unusual Mantrailers out there.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Well, at least you are honest about being a lazy, sloppy trainer. It is a shame, though, that you don't want to learn anything more.
> 
> Oh...and physical corrections...completely work on the concept that the dog DOES mind them. Otherwise, they aren't an effective aversive. The dog has to find them unpleasant or they have no power as a negative consequence.


The thing is... in a previous post they even said that they didn't have to use physical corrections, that they could just lower their voice and the dog would stop the behaviour.

My question then is; WHY? Why would you intentionally hurt your dog when you knew you didn't have to?

The jist I'm getting from all the posts is that they got a pit because pits have a higher threshold for physical punishment, and they're a lazy owner so they don't want to take the time to use techniques that don't involve physical punishment, just what works quickly and easily.

If I'm wrong, please tell me, but right now I am so sad for this dog.

ETA: but of course, I couldn't know about anything about pits ever regardless.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Entwine said:


> Mind you, I had a very leash reactive dog that no longer even LOOKS at other dogs on leash after extensive training and conditioning. I'm talking lunging/barking/screaming/snarling/etc. *Then again, she is a Chihuahua, so I must know nothing about how to train dogs.*


I'm not getting into the previous argument, but I do want to remark on the part in bold....
You have obviously done a great job teaching your dog to be non-reactive, and I envy that, I know it is a hard thing to deal with and I've dealt with some reactivity myself. I will say though, you have had success with a Chihuahua, you know how to deal with your dog (and other dogs with similar temperament), but I've got to say, there is a difference when you are dealing with a dog that you know can overpower you and kill you if it wanted to when it reacts (even if you are positive it wouldn't do that....). I got lucky with the big guy (90lb GSD) I fostered (yes, lucky even with my scars), I could have screwed up, or ended up in a situation that we couldn't deal with, which is always possible when dealing with a reactive dog. 

Think of it this way....I'm sure when you were working on the reactivity you had some kind of "exit strategy", am I right? If things went badly and got out of hand....Unfortunately, dealing with a bigger, stronger dog that "exit strategy" might have to include things more physical than would be necessary with a smaller dog. Being willing to do those things does involve a different mindset as a person and a trainer (keep in mind, being willing and wanting to are two very different things). It may be as simple with a larger dog to have a prong collar on, just for the extra "power steering" effect, something that wouldn't necessary with a smaller dog, though it might be more extreme. I managed that big guy and improved him in many ways....but to be honest, I'm not planning on getting in that far over my head again!

Something I'm noticing in this discussion is a bit of disdain between the owners of bigger and smaller dogs. I'm not going to say that all dogs need punishment, or the same kind of punishment, or that completely PR entirely works for all dogs. I will however say that we should all be a little less disdainful of those who own different kinds of dogs. Not all small dogs are "purse dogs" (I'm sure you all know what I mean), and not all owners of larger dogs who give their dogs a smack abusive (hey, some big dogs really like a good butt smacking, which has been mentioned). Sometimes larger and smaller dogs need and respond to different styles of training and different attitudes....something I wish we could all respect a little more sometimes and discuss without getting so adversarial and personal.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I only wish this was a sitcom so we could have some sort of alternate universe flashes. Like ones where I'd be clutching my pearls and saying "Shammy please be good for mommy. Please, baby!"


You know you secretly do this.




ireth0 said:


> If I'm wrong, please tell me, but right now I am so sad for this dog.


Eh, I don't think the dog is really getting punched. I "thump" my dogs sometimes and they enjoy it, although it is always play. And I touch my dogs to get their attention sometimes, but there is no force behind it. But those aren't things that I would use in defense of hitting dogs as punishment, they're things that I wouldn't even think to mention at all in the context of training. "Smacking" a dog in training is usually, in my opinion, about getting a fast/easy result or the person blowing off steam. Neither of which I am interested in, but it isn't necessarily always hard enough to be abusive.

CM specifically... I don't like the way he "taps" dogs. He jabs them in the neck with his little claw fingers. And I don't care what anyone says, that sh*t hurts. Getting kicked in the soft part of your belly hurts, it's not an attention getter. And it's astonishing to me that anyone would try to defend that kind of stuff because their dog isn't distressed by a slap on the butt.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> We train dogs in prey drive and it's a lot like a human who is in fight mode, where they see red. So, then you'd be smacking a dog that is already amped up and it could turn and bite you without even thinking things through. That wouldn't be the dog's fault.


Yep. I've seen this comparison here before, but basically, you'd never go up to a guy who was engaged in a bar fight and grab his shoulder from behind. Odds are very good that he'd whip around and deck you, no matter who you were or why you were touching him, just because he'd be so amped up. Dogs are the same.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Yep. I've seen this comparison here before, but basically, you'd never go up to a guy who was engaged in a bar fight and grab his shoulder from behind. Odds are very good that he'd whip around and deck you, no matter who you were or why you were touching him, just because he'd be so amped up. Dogs are the same.


And I think it is really unfair to expect a dog to have more self-control than a human could and then punish them with death because they reacted the way we might.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> You know you secretly do this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh I totally agree about the butt thumping in play because the dog likes it (I do this with my cats too, they love it), but the poster said that they did this in training/correctional ways which IMO is different.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

sassafras said:


> You know you secretly do this.


Mostly I just curl up into a fetal position any way so who care what he's doing!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I honestly see a lot of these discussions going 'oh yeah well guess what mine is longer!' 

I am interested to see what happens in these discussions when I get a 'real dog' breed for Nextdog. lol Probably still won't be big enough.

Yes, there are differences when training small dogs vs larger ones. And keeping yourself out of a dangerous situation is paramount. If I haven't said this enough around here *I AM NOT AGAINST AVERSIVES IN EVERY SITUATION* I'm not going to harass anyone using a prong or an e-collar. I just don't care. I do think it's important to think the WHY though and I get frustrated when mostly pet people (ack hope I'm not a snob now!) seem to have no idea about motivating a dog or some other fairly basic thing. I don't think cookies and rainbows solve everything. I think smacking is usually ineffective and done primarily out of instinct. I've done it before. I grew up in a family where the dog's nose was rubbed in the pee on the carpet and you gave him a spanking. In fact recently I was told that I needed to give Mia a painful lesson over something by a relative.  I view a lot of that as just generational/dog experience differences. I have trained my dogs to do a heck of a lot more than any of them so why on earth should I listen to them?

Oh man I had a point but now I'm rambling. I forget what I was going after here. :redface:


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

Greater Swiss said:


> I'm not getting into the previous argument, but I do want to remark on the part in bold....
> You have obviously done a great job teaching your dog to be non-reactive, and I envy that, I know it is a hard thing to deal with and I've dealt with some reactivity myself. I will say though, you have had success with a Chihuahua, you know how to deal with your dog (and other dogs with similar temperament), but I've got to say, there is a difference when you are dealing with a dog that you know can overpower you and kill you if it wanted to when it reacts (even if you are positive it wouldn't do that....). I got lucky with the big guy (90lb GSD) I fostered (yes, lucky even with my scars), I could have screwed up, or ended up in a situation that we couldn't deal with, which is always possible when dealing with a reactive dog.
> 
> Think of it this way....I'm sure when you were working on the reactivity you had some kind of "exit strategy", am I right? If things went badly and got out of hand....Unfortunately, dealing with a bigger, stronger dog that "exit strategy" might have to include things more physical than would be necessary with a smaller dog. Being willing to do those things does involve a different mindset as a person and a trainer (keep in mind, being willing and wanting to are two very different things). It may be as simple with a larger dog to have a prong collar on, just for the extra "power steering" effect, something that wouldn't necessary with a smaller dog, though it might be more extreme. I managed that big guy and improved him in many ways....but to be honest, I'm not planning on getting in that far over my head again!
> ...


I've also trained Huskies, a Rottweiler, and am working on my sister's 80lbs mess of a mutt. I'm well aware of the differences size when training a reactive dog. Regardless, I don't think it really matters all too much in relation to my post.

I was more-so making the statement to highlight the fact that I had gotten the impression that lego would likely find that as a reason to disregard my opinion. I'm not trying to be disdainful, just communicating.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh yes... in my experience when training a dog to DO SOMETHING (vs a problem solving kind of situation) some things are easier with a larger dog and some are easier with a smaller one. A lot of how much work comes down to the individual dog regardless of breed. Summer is easy-peasy and Mia is not so much. 

One example: I'd kill for a larger dog when it comes to heelwork. My dogs are so short! One day I will have a dog that I don't have to bend over to reward all the time!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> One example: I'd kill for a larger dog when it comes to heelwork. My dogs are so short! One day I will have a dog that I don't have to bend over to reward all the time!


I hear that! I was SO happy when Sam got big enough I didn't have to bend to grab his collar. LOL! It almost makes up for all the accidental pains and discomforts caused by his size. I can't imagine teaching something like focused heeling to a dog the size of yours...I can only imagine how sore my back would get from trying to bend and walk at the same time for so long. Ack!!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

People (mostly new people, just because they're not familiar with the histories of the posters here) should be more careful about forming impressions based on our current dogs, because they have no idea what we've owned or worked with in the past (not to mention that they shouldn't assume that just because a current dog is small, it's an "easy" dog). 

For example, my previous dog, Scout (who I raised from a puppy) was a 90+ lb malamute/collie mix. He was no more of a "furkid" than my current 9 and 18lb dogs are. He was actually an easier dog than Casper is, as well. I agree that there will be some differences between training a small dog and a large one, but not as many differences as people think. The biggest difference, for me, is that I don't need any kind of head halter or prong collar to control my littles, even if they're super amped up and want to go after something. They're small enough that I can just lift them up; I don't have to worry about them pulling me over/dragging me down the sidewalk on my stomach (like my Samoyed did when I was younger and stubbornly refused to let go of her leash). The basics of how I train and manage them, though, are the same as with Scout.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

packetsmom said:


> I hear that! I was SO happy when Sam got big enough I didn't have to bend to grab his collar. LOL! It almost makes up for all the accidental pains and discomforts caused by his size. I can't imagine teaching something like focused heeling to a dog the size of yours...I can only imagine how sore my back would get from trying to bend and walk at the same time for so long. Ack!!


It's a pain, lol. I just don't do much heelwork with them but some people definitely do AKC obedience with paps well. I suck at formal obedience. The only was I've gotten it at all is freeshaping it from Mia's 'watch me'. 

In agility- same thing. My dogs do the contacts very well, a lot less complicated training than a big dog. But like- the teeter? It takes forever for it to drop with my dogs so it can be a lot more fear inducing for them since they're spending more time on there. 

And my dogs follow my feet more than my hands, it seems. I think it's too high for them to see. If I'm CLEARLY indicating an obstacle with my hands but my feet are wrong... they're going where my feet are pointing.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I hear that! I was SO happy when Sam got big enough I didn't have to bend to grab his collar. LOL! It almost makes up for all the accidental pains and discomforts caused by his size. I can't imagine teaching something like focused heeling to a dog the size of yours...I can only imagine how sore my back would get from trying to bend and walk at the same time for so long. Ack!!


bend to grab a collar? I haven't had to do that in forever. 

I love my big puppy, I can grab her harness between the shoulder blades without bending


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> It's a pain, lol. I just don't do much heelwork with them but some people definitely do AKC obedience with paps well. I suck at formal obedience. The only was I've gotten it at all is freeshaping it from Mia's 'watch me'.
> 
> In agility- same thing. My dogs do the contacts very well, a lot less complicated training than a big dog. But like- the teeter? It takes forever for it to drop with my dogs so it can be a lot more fear inducing for them since they're spending more time on there.
> 
> And my dogs follow my feet more than my hands, it seems. I think it's too high for them to see. If I'm CLEARLY indicating an obstacle with my hands but my feet are wrong... they're going where my feet are pointing.


I think which is easier, big or small, depends a lot on the person. For me, I find bigger dogs easier. For one, I can't handle high pitched yapping. I have a lot more patience for lower pitched big barks. With big dogs, the challenges are often more physical, which I can handle better. I don't mind being beat up by handling a big dog and I also like that I can give my big dog a hearty chest thump in return without worrying about hurting him. I tend to do best with harder dogs because I have such a hard time hiding my feelings. It's not that I yell at my dog or throw tantrums or hit him, but some softer dogs tend to crumple at even a dirty look. I know there are some hard small dogs but I think that I find I do best with a hard big dog.

I had a pug that I loved and kept me laughing, but I really couldn't train that dog very well. I got him to the point he was a decent house dog, but I just couldn't train him further and if he gave me a pitiful look when I was training him, it was hard to keep at it. LOL! When Sam gives me pitiful looks, it's easier to still make him redo something before he gets his treat or play.

There still is a part of me that would love to have a Schutzhund min pin, though. That would be AWESOME! And...I could train him to ride on Sam's back.  Happily, I think all Min Pins are currently safe from me, though...1 big dog and 2 cats have us well kept in animals for now. LOL!



Flaming said:


> bend to grab a collar? I haven't had to do that in forever.
> 
> I love my big puppy, I can grab her harness between the shoulder blades without bending


I LOVE big dog hugs, too.  I barely have to bend now to get Sam's front paws on my shoulders and get some lovin'.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

lego said:


> If she "took a chunk out of me", you'd better damn well believe I would.
> I'm not a soft owner, I'm very hard. Which is why I don't own a less tolerant breed- ACD is an example that comes to mind.
> I also want to make clear-- I don't willy nilly hit my dog. I don't take every little thing that she does incorrectly and smack her. Only, *ONLY* when she is being willfully obtuse.
> She is 2 now and hasn't gotten a spank for over 6 months.


It's a good thing you don't have or deal with "sharper" breeds like Malinois, some GSD's, ACDs because if you "smacked one of those dogs, ESP if they were hyped up. If you had "smacked a dog like Izze (or any high drive dog for that matter) when she was working cattle, she have redirected on you ... Quite badly. When we were working livestock I always used a cane to direct her (NOT to touch or strike her, but to point & direct or ... Block when she got too intense).

Heck even a nice sweet dog like Josefina, when amped up during play or ... When she got into a fight with the other female we have here she can ... & has redirected on me. When we are playing she did redirect on me a fee times she would also get frustrated during fetch when the other dog would get the ball before her & a fee times she did redirect in him.

ANY time she would put her mouth on ANY part of ANYONE, animal or human resulted in an automatic time out for the rest of the play session ... No negoations. 

It is not nessessary to euthanize a dog who redirects.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm definitely a small to medium dog person. Anything pushing 40 lbs is really pushing it. My chosen sports though seem to favor dogs that are medium or smaller. I like the portability and lack of drool too. Paps are a bit too small but I just love their temperaments.

Although there was a HUGE great dane at my last trial. You should have seen that thing go through the tunnels. It practically had to crawl on its belly.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I think which is easier, big or small, depends a lot on the person. For me, I find bigger dogs easier. For one, I can't handle high pitched yapping. I have a lot more patience for lower pitched big barks. With big dogs, the challenges are often more physical, which I can handle better. I don't mind being beat up by handling a big dog and I also like that I can give my big dog a hearty chest thump in return without worrying about hurting him. I tend to do best with harder dogs because I have such a hard time hiding my feelings. It's not that I yell at my dog or throw tantrums or hit him, but some softer dogs tend to crumple at even a dirty look. I know there are some hard small dogs but I think that I find I do best with a hard big dog.
> 
> I had a pug that I loved and kept me laughing, but I really couldn't train that dog very well. I got him to the point he was a decent house dog, but I just couldn't train him further and if he gave me a pitiful look when I was training him, it was hard to keep at it. LOL! When Sam gives me pitiful looks, it's easier to still make him redo something before he gets his treat or play.
> 
> ...


I miss big dog hugs, we trained Manna not to jump up so well that she doesn't want to give hugs anymore. Though if I sit on the floor you won't see me for very long lol.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> It's a good thing you don't have or deal with "sharper" breeds like Malinois, some GSD's, ACDs because if you "smacked one of those dogs, ESP if they were hyped up. If you had "smacked a dog like Izze (or any high drive dog for that matter) when she was working cattle, she have redirected on you ... Quite badly. When we were working livestock I always used a cane to direct her (NOT to touch or strike her, but to point & direct or ... Block when she got too intense).
> 
> Heck even a nice sweet dog like Josefina, when amped up during play or ... When she got into a fight with the other female we have here she can ... & has redirected on me. When we are playing she did redirect on me a fee times she would also get frustrated during fetch when the other dog would get the ball before her & a fee times she did redirect in him.
> 
> ...



Actually, Malinois are very different from GSD's. It is why a lot of people had to re-think their training methods when they switched from a GSD to a Malinois. While they can be sharper, fast to judge they can be more handler sensitive and yeah, they might re-direct onto you but that is absolutely no reason to PTS because 90% of the time, it's the handler that is at fault.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Flaming said:


> I miss big dog hugs, we trained Manna not to jump up so well that she doesn't want to give hugs anymore. Though if I sit on the floor you won't see me for very long lol.


I was worried about this, so I worked to teach a cue. LOL!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

With a bigger dog, three medium dogs, and a small dog I'm not sure which I prefer. I like that Sham can leap into the Range Rover in a single effortless bound, but I don't like when he sits his bum on me on the couch. I barely out weigh you, dog. So gentle with the cat, a giant tornado otherwise.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Entwine said:


> I've also trained Huskies, a Rottweiler, and am working on my sister's 80lbs mess of a mutt. I'm well aware of the differences size when training a reactive dog. Regardless, I don't think it really matters all too much in relation to my post.
> 
> I was more-so making the statement to highlight the fact that I had gotten the impression that lego would likely find that as a reason to disregard my opinion. I'm not trying to be disdainful, just communicating.


 I didn't know you'd dealt with larger dogs as well....It wasn't just directed at you though (I can completely see why you would think it was....I did use your quote as an example), but generally, there are a lot of smaller dog owners that I've met (not just here) that don't quite get the challenge, and the creepy feeling you get when you are dealing with a dog that can send you to the ER in a split second without even trying. I'm not just saying you are disdainful either...that was pointed at Lego as well (though I'd prefer to keep it general, Lego isn't the only owner/trainer of a larger/more dangerous breed that carries the attitude towards smaller dog owners). I do agree with many points from people on both sides of the breed size/attitude thing, but as has been pointed out, the "mine's bigger" attitude really takes away from a proper discussion on the points. Oh, and I'm not just talking my dog is bigger....my training challenge, my dog's problem etc....and I don't count myself as immune from this, many of us do it on occasion without even meaning to. Talking about our dogs and our training etc does tend to get people defensive when there is a disagreement, and disdainful. That just struck me reading the last few pages of this thread. It is so frustrating sometimes, especially when there are really great discussion-worthy points on both sides.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Since this thread has remained off topic I thought I may defend myself somewhat--
I have never used physical correction lightly. It took thought and careful consideration... It hasn't been spur of the moment. 
I can count on two hands the times that I have used it from the age of 6-18 months. 
I do not beat my dog. I give a smack that is enough to get her attention. 
I use other training techniques as well- positive reinforcement. Luring/capturing. "Look at me". Practicing "touch me" to get her attention to prevent from getting into an excited/aroused state. 
The comment about being "lazy" was a tongue in cheek/flip comment. It was not serious. 
I do nothing with my dog (as in work/agility). She is a pet but I do not seek any certification to know that she is a good one. 
Whoever feels sorry for my dog-- no need to. She is very happily sleeping on the couch with me as we speak. She is mentally/physically stimulated. She is fed the best a dog could possibly get. She has EVERYTHING a dog could hope for.

It is awesomely sad how a bunch of (assumed) adults can be so rude/presumptuous to a person that they have never met in their life. Some very pompous and arrogant about their personal abilities. 
I never claimed to be the best dog trainer. I said I have much to learn. 
What I do know is that (depending on the dog) I will continue physically reprimanding dogs I own... I don't give two flips what anyone on here has to say on that particular issue.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> I didn't know you'd dealt with larger dogs as well....It wasn't just directed at you though (I can completely see why you would think it was....I did use your quote as an example), but generally, there are a lot of smaller dog owners that I've met (not just here) that don't quite get the challenge, and the creepy feeling you get when you are dealing with a dog that can send you to the ER in a split second without even trying. I'm not just saying you are disdainful either...that was pointed at Lego as well (though I'd prefer to keep it general, Lego isn't the only owner/trainer of a larger/more dangerous breed that carries the attitude towards smaller dog owners). I do agree with many points from people on both sides of the breed size/attitude thing, but as has been pointed out, the "mine's bigger" attitude really takes away from a proper discussion on the points. Oh, and I'm not just talking my dog is bigger....my training challenge, my dog's problem etc....and I don't count myself as immune from this, many of us do it on occasion without even meaning to. Talking about our dogs and our training etc does tend to get people defensive when there is a disagreement, and disdainful. That just struck me reading the last few pages of this thread. It is so frustrating sometimes, especially when there are really great discussion-worthy points on both sides.


 When did I say anything about small dogs?


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> When did I say anything about small dogs?


Greater Swiss was responding to me, I believe. ;S 

It's alright, Greater Swiss. I was just clarifying. I know you didn't mean me in particular, but I responded anyway. Thanks for the clarification.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> I didn't know you'd dealt with larger dogs as well....It wasn't just directed at you though (I can completely see why you would think it was....I did use your quote as an example), but generally, there are a lot of smaller dog owners that I've met (not just here) that don't quite get the challenge, and the creepy feeling you get when you are dealing with a dog that can send you to the ER in a split second without even trying. I'm not just saying you are disdainful either...that was pointed at Lego as well (though I'd prefer to keep it general, *Lego isn't the only owner/trainer of a larger/more dangerous breed that carries the attitude towards smaller dog owners*). I do agree with many points from people on both sides of the breed size/attitude thing, but as has been pointed out, the "mine's bigger" attitude really takes away from a proper discussion on the points. Oh, and I'm not just talking my dog is bigger....my training challenge, my dog's problem etc....and I don't count myself as immune from this, many of us do it on occasion without even meaning to. Talking about our dogs and our training etc does tend to get people defensive when there is a disagreement, and disdainful. That just struck me reading the last few pages of this thread. It is so frustrating sometimes, especially when there are really great discussion-worthy points on both sides.


That is what I was referring to...? I have no idea what attitude I have towards smaller dogs. Some of my favourite breeds are tiny. Mini poodle, JRT, Chihuahua, Dachshund....


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> Since this thread has remained off topic I thought I may defend myself somewhat--
> I have never used physical correction lightly. It took thought and careful consideration... It hasn't been spur of the moment.
> I can count on two hands the times that I have used it from the age of 6-18 months.
> I do not beat my dog. I give a smack that is enough to get her attention.
> ...


I find that a very ironic thing to say, considering you were the only one to personally insult the members of this forum. (TWAB comes to mind)

I'm not really sure why, but to me you seem to continue to come across with a 'I know more than you' attitude, even when you have no knowledge of the other person's experience.

On the 'I train this way because I'm lazy' comment, how could you expect ANYONE to just KNOW you were being tongue in cheek and not serious, having basically no prior knowledge of you or your personality?

I think GS's comment (and she can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) has to do with the fact that you seem to have an attitude that nobody can know what you have to do with your pit if they don't own a pit type dog. It comes across as though you think lesser of those people or you think that their opinions have lesser value because they can't 'know', as you put it. Again, regardless of what their experience may be that you have no knowledge of.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> It is awesomely sad how a bunch of (assumed) adults can be so rude/presumptuous to a person that they have never met in their life. Some very pompous and arrogant about their personal abilities.
> I never claimed to be the best dog trainer. I said I have much to learn.
> What I do know is that (depending on the dog) I will continue physically reprimanding dogs I own... I don't give two flips what anyone on here has to say on that particular issue.


You are the new person here and you have made quite the first impression, I'd say. It's rather rude and presumptuous to come into a group and start tossing insults and attitude around. Some people here are very confident about their personal abilities because they have reason to be. We have members who have worked as professional trainers, members who have rehabilitated problem dogs for rescue organizations, members who have worked with their dogs in Search and Rescue, members who have trained and competed with their dogs in various dog sports, up to very high levels, and members with more years of experience training dogs than I have breathing. You've insulted many of those members and refused to listen to them.

So...you will continue to do what you've been doing no matter what anyone else has to say about it...yet you say you have much to learn. How are you going to learn when you have the attitude that you're unwilling to listen to anything anyone else has to say?

And the duck face picture...I mean, really...this is not a dating site. Why the weird avatar?


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> You are the new person here and you have made quite the first impression, I'd say. It's rather rude and presumptuous to come into a group and start tossing insults and attitude around. Some people here are very confident about their personal abilities because they have reason to be. We have members who have worked as professional trainers, members who have rehabilitated problem dogs for rescue organizations, members who have worked with their dogs in Search and Rescue, members who have trained and competed with their dogs in various dog sports, up to very high levels, and members with more years of experience training dogs than I have breathing. You've insulted many of those members and refused to listen to them.
> 
> So...you will continue to do what you've been doing no matter what anyone else has to say about it...yet you say you have much to learn. How are you going to learn when you have the attitude that you're unwilling to listen to anything anyone else has to say?
> 
> And the duck face picture...I mean, really...this is not a dating site. Why the weird avatar?


Haha! That is not duck face. Those are big lips LMAO... Do you want to date me? To the rest... rubbish.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

lego said:


> Trust me-- you'll be glad I gave my dog a thump when it's trying to rip your little chihuahua's trachea out... I can guarantee you that.


No, I'm pretty sure I'd be giving _you_ a thump.

I'm not against intelligent aversives, but hitting your dog like that isn't training. Allowing your dog to be in that situation at all shows *horrible* training and shitty management to boot.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

And here I thought the Canadian public school system was superior to that in the US. I'm sadly disappointed.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

When you are the new person in an established group, generally it is not the group that needs to impress _you_.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hey I disagree with a lot of ppl on here ... The main thing being that some breeds "special" needs in regards to training, I always reference ACDs because that is the breed I have the most experience with. It's not that you can't use the same methods on those said dogs just need a rigid STRUCTURE on what they CAN & CAN'T do, I know there are those who don't believe this ... But I have first hand experience with those certain dogs.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> And here I thought the Canadian public school system was superior to that in the US. I'm sadly disappointed.


 Yes. My comments have plenty to do with the Canadian public school systems. 
And I thought brown M&M's are healthier because they have less food colouring. See... I can make associations that have nothing to do with anything.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

Lego, I have to agree with the others. You've been on this forum all of two minutes, and already have managed to insult other members, who as I've stated before have tons of dog experience. More then you have from the sounds of it. You may want to just lurk awhile. You'll learn a lot.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> When you are the new person in an established group, generally it is not the group that needs to impress _you_.


Well. I'm not particularly concerned.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Hey I disagree with a lot of ppl on here ... The main thing being that some breeds "special" needs in regards to training, I always reference ACDs because that is the breed I have the most experience with. It's not that you can't use the same methods on those said dogs just need a rigid STRUCTURE on what they CAN & CAN'T do, I know there are those who don't believe this ... But I have first hand experience with those certain dogs.


We're not disagreeing that your ACDs need rigid structure. We're just saying that it's not because they're ACDs. Most of us here use the exact same training methods you do; you're not using some unique and unusual technique. You always try to make it sound like positive trainers ignore bad behavior, while you're different because you don't... but none of us are ignoring bad behavior, either. Stuff like leaving the room when a puppy bites is still part of positive training.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> Lego, I have to agree with the others. You've been on this forum all of two minutes, and already have managed to insult other members, who as I've stated before have tons of dog experience. More then you have from the sounds of it. You may want to just lurk awhile. You'll learn a lot.


 I tried to be very polite.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> Yes. Because dogs = humans. THAT is why there are so many issue with dogs.
> You give me a thump. We'll see.


My dog doesn't have any issues due to not being hit as punishment. Nor did I detect any kind of indication that aiw's dog(s) are poorly behaved or have issues.

I think that there have always been and will always be issue dogs for various reasons. Neglect, abuse, incorrect or lack of socialization, malnutrition, poor genetics, and so on are all contributing factors.

My sister and her husband hit their dogs as punishment because they want to be "the boss" and "dogs are just dogs". Their Miniature Dachshund was quarantined for biting a child in the face. He regularly bites their children and them. He is 6 years old and still not potty trained. I'm now attempting to help clean up their mess of an 80lb mutt because he is now out of control as well. He's killed one of their cats, at least four-five of their chickens, and barks hysterically at neighbors. They use choke collars, hitting, and crate punishment regularly. Simply being heavy-handed or being liberal with punishment does not equate to well behaved dogs, just as no consequences and coddling does not equate to well behaved dogs. They're two extremes that I doubt very much any one person on this forum subscribes to.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> Yes. My comments have plenty to do with the Canadian public school systems.
> And I thought brown M&M's are healthier because they have less food colouring. See... I can associations that have nothing to do with anything.


Please, please tell me you are an immigrant to Canada or else your existence will completely shatter all the nice delusions I had about young Canadians being more polite and better educated than young Americans. It really was a nice delusion to have and I'd hate to lose it.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Entwine said:


> My dog doesn't have any issues due to not being hit as punishment. Nor did I detect any kind of indication that aiw's dog(s) are poorly behaved or have issues.
> 
> I think that there have always been and will always be issue dogs for various reasons. Neglect, abuse, incorrect or lack of socialization, malnutrition, poor genetics, and so on are all contributing factors.
> 
> My sister and her husband hit their dogs as punishment because they wanted to be "the boss" and "dogs are just dogs". Their Miniature Dachshund was quarantined for biting a child in the face. He regularly bites their children and them. He is 6 years old and still not potty trained. I'm now attempting to help clean up their mess of an 80lb mutt because he is now out of control as well. He's killed one of their cats, at least four-five of their chickens, and barks hysterically at neighbors. They use choke collars, hitting, and crate punishment regularly. Simply being heavy-handed or being liberal with punishment does not equate to well behaved dogs, just as no consequences and coddling does not equate to well behaved dogs. They're two extremes that I doubt very much any one person on this forum subscribes to.


You have a 4-6 pound dog! Not a dog that could potentially be a SERIOUS liability.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Please, please tell me you are an immigrant to Canada or else your existence will completely shatter all the nice delusions I had about young Canadians being more polite and better educated than young Americans. It really was a nice delusion to have and I'd hate to lose it.


 What have I said that indicated that I am unintelligent? Oh... was it when I decided to stray from the herd of sheep you follow so faithfully? When I decided to have a "duck face" as my avatar? When I decided to swat my dog a handful of times? LOL.
Changed my avatar for you packet. She looks the very definition of miserable, doesn't she?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

lego said:


> I like your condescension/sarcasm. It's super witty.
> There are breeds/individuals that don't fit into your little "fur mommy" category. Sorry.





lego said:


> Your perfection practically eminates through my ipad screen. TWABs too.
> Gee, if only I could bask in it longer. But alas, this thread has been dragged OT for too long and I'm now unwilling to drag it further.
> If you would like to further profess your absolute perfected methods of training and other perfect aspects of your/your dog's life- feel free to pm me.





lego said:


> Nope. It means that I get things done in a quicker/easier way. I'm the lazy of "dog training". My dog is not a child. It is not a baby. It does not fart rainbows. My dog is a dog. If dogs don't mind correcting physically, neither do I.
> Now I am off. Have a good day ladies.





lego said:


> I am not going to argue any further. Any more posts directed at me will be addressed if they are PM'd, if not... have at it. I brought this up KNOWING FULL WELL that people would flame me. Guess what? It does not change my views, nor my methods.
> I am happy with what I do. I explained what I do (if you didn't see specifics, read back). If you disagree, I respect that.
> I understand that there is a type of clique occurs when long standing members see opposing opinions from a new member. It is still very.... disrespectful.
> The condescension, the sarcasm. The demeaning and passive aggressive remarks. Where do the get you?
> ...





lego said:


> It is awesomely sad how a bunch of (assumed) adults can be so rude/presumptuous to a person that they have never met in their life. Some very pompous and arrogant about their personal abilities.
> I never claimed to be the best dog trainer. I said I have much to learn.
> What I do know is that (depending on the dog) I will continue physically reprimanding dogs I own... I don't give two flips what anyone on here has to say on that particular issue.





lego said:


> This thread is over for me. All I see are a bunch of women that sound hopped up on estrogen. Do they make dog forums for men?





lego said:


> What have I said that indicated that I am unintelligent? Oh... was it when I decided to stray from the herd of sheep you follow so faithfully? When I decided to have a "duck face" as my avatar? When I decided that swatting my dog a handful of times? LOL.
> Someone is menopausal... having a hot flash dear?





lego said:


> I tried to be very polite.


Yeah, you're SUPER polite. It's also very obvious that, despite your protestations, you care very much what we all think of you.

Also, I think you're well on your way to setting a new record for the number of times a person claims they're leaving the thread without actually doing so!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> What have I said that indicated that I am unintelligent? Oh... was it when I decided to stray from the herd of sheep you follow so faithfully? When I decided to have a "duck face" as my avatar? When I decided that swatting my dog a handful of times? LOL.
> Someone is menopausal... having a hot flash dear?


It was when you started insulting people you do not even know with greater experience than your own. Meanwhile, you try to defend training practices that you even admit are lazy, all while still saying that you "have a lot to learn."

And menopause? LOL...not for quite a while, thank you. 

I happen to often disagree with other members of this forum when it comes to training methods. I'm not a positive only trainer. Even so, I respect their experience and their opinions and I learn a lot from them. You might try doing the same.



Crantastic said:


> Yeah, you're SUPER polite.
> 
> Also, I think you're well on your way to setting a new record for the number of times a person claims they're leaving the thread without actually doing so!


I think we have a new flounce champion.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> You have a 4-6 pound dog! Not a dog that could potentially be a liability.


What are you talking about? Liability? And my dog actually weighs 7.5lbs... So, your assumption is wrong. But, that doesn't really matter. Did you even read my prior posts wherein I detailed that I've successfully trained much larger dogs--including a Rottweiler?

Why do you talk about things as though you're the smartest person in this forum and no one could possibly have any knowledge that may be of use to you?* In fact, my post actually makes the point that you are NOT in the extreme that people may be assuming you are in. I was, in a way, stating that you were NOT in the same boat as my sister and her husband if you have only hit your dog "a handful of times". *

Your comments are very immature and very off-putting. You're calling people "sheep" here without even knowing that there are some long-time members who DO use positive punishment and are EXTREMELY respected. THAT is why people are getting heated with you. Why even join a SOCIAL FORUM and socialize if all you're going to do is be aggressive, unpleasant, and ignore shared knowledge and advice?


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Yeah, you're SUPER polite. It's also very obvious that, despite your protestations, you care very much what we all think of you.
> 
> Also, I think you're well on your way to setting a new record for the number of times a person claims they're leaving the thread without actually doing so!


 HA, you're right. Should have let this thread die a natural death but I allowed myself to be provoked. 
I can see that some of the things that I say can be slightly abrasive BUT I am only being honest about myself. Maybe all of you sit around and discuss just how perfect you are, how perfect your training methods are but: I'm real. 
Did I know that stating that I swat my dog occasionally would open a can of worms? Yes. Does it make it any less reality? No. 
If that sticks in your craw-- don't read and don't respond. Easy.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Inb4 lego accuses me of having too much time on my hands!

(Did you guys all know that if you want to quote a bunch of posts, you just have to click that little icon in the bottom right of each post that looks like a speech bubble? Then when you click "reply to thread," it will insert all of those quoted posts into your reply. It's a huge time-saver!)

lego, if you just lurked more, you'd see that nobody here claims to be perfect. Some of us (like me) have difficult dogs. My AKK is a fear-biter, and I've made some progress, but I certainly haven't made him 100% safe around strangers. You're reading too much into our posts if you think we all consider ourselves perfect, expert trainers.

That said, some of the other posters here have a LOT of experience and have the right to act a bit superior if they want to. They have earned it.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> It was when you started insulting people you do not even know with greater experience than your own. Meanwhile, you try to defend training practices that you even admit are lazy, all while still saying that you "have a lot to learn."
> 
> And menopause? LOL...not for quite a while, thank you.
> 
> ...


If you don't agree with my posts. Don't read them. That is what I would do if I disagreed with yours. 
I think you just like being on the bandwagon. With your pitchforks and torches. It gives you a sense of unity doesn't it Packet? Makes you feel.... accepted. 
That is not how I do things.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> Trust me-- you'll be glad I gave my dog a thump when it's trying to rip your little chihuahua's trachea out... I can guarantee you that.


Probably not. Because I guarantee that giving a DA dog a "thump" while it's on its way to trying to rip out another dog's trachea is going to accomplish exactly zero. 




Crantastic said:


> Also, I think you're well on your way to setting a new record for the number of times a person claims they're leaving the thread without actually doing so!


Nobody ever leaves when they say they're going to. You know that.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

lego said:


> What have I said that indicated that I am unintelligent? Oh... was it when I decided to stray from the herd of sheep you follow so faithfully? When I decided to have a "duck face" as my avatar? When I decided that swatting my dog a handful of times? LOL.
> Changed my avatar for you packet. She looks the very definition of miserable, doesn't she?


And you think you're being polite?!! We are not herds of sheep following blindly. As we have already explained, we have done research, worked with dogs (including the infamous pit), and many are trainers ourselves. Those of us that are, must be having some type of success or we wouldn't be getting clients! Also if you'd been polite and lurking you'd know that there are many members here that use aversives, including shock collars. I'd keep your opinions to yourself until you get to know us a little better. 

I was actually working with a pit the other night and guess what, I didn't have to hit her (or thump her or whatever you want to call it) to get her to work for me. We weren't working on reactivity but still (and I'm not convinced I'd use that method when working with reactivity either). I think pits are actually sensitive. They love thier people so much that they don't want thier people to be disappointed. I guess I'm not sure why you'd hit a dog like that. In my experience it's not necessary.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Entwine said:


> What are you talking about? Liability? And my dog actually weighs 7.5lbs... So, your assumption is wrong. But, that doesn't really matter. Did you even read my prior posts wherein I detailed that I've successfully trained much larger dogs--including a Rottweiler?
> 
> Why do you talk about things as though you're the smartest person in this forum and no one could possibly have any knowledge that may be of use to you?* In fact, my post actually makes the point that you are NOT in the extreme that people may be assuming you are in. I was, in a way, stating that you were NOT in the same boat as my sister and her husband if you have only hit your dog "a handful of times". *
> 
> Your comments are very immature and very off-putting. You're calling people "sheep" here without even knowing that there are some long-time members who DO use positive punishment and are EXTREMELY respected. THAT is why people are getting heated with you. Why even join a SOCIAL FORUM and socialize if all you're going to do is be aggressive, unpleasant, and ignore shared knowledge and advice?


 I mean that if your dog gets crazy and attacks another dog, your breed will not be banned. That is all.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> And you think you're being polite?!! We are not herds of sheep following blindly. As we have already explained, we have done research, worked with dogs (including the infamous pit), and many are trainers ourselves. Those of us that are, must be having some type of success or we wouldn't be getting clients! Also if you'd been polite and lurking you'd know that there are many members here that use aversives, including shock collars. I'd keep your opinions to yourself until you get to know us a little better.
> 
> I was actually working with a pit the other night and guess what, I didn't have to hit her (or thump her or whatever you want to call it) to get her to work for me. We weren't working on reactivity but still (and I'm not convinced I'd use that method when working with reactivity either). I think pits are actually sensitive. They love thier people so much that they don't want thier people to be disappointed. I guess I'm not sure why you'd hit a dog like that. In my experience it's not necessary.


 The image I get in my head when someone uses the word "hit" is a direct punch to the face or a right hook to the ribs. 
What I do is the same as when we are playing-- a light smack on the ass. It doesn't cause any trauma at all- physical or mental.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

lego said:


> If you don't agree with my posts. Don't read them. That is what I would do if I disagreed with yours.


It is? Because it seems to me that when you disagree with someone's posts, you insult that person and call them a menopausal, estrogen-soaked sheep who owns furbabies.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> It is? Because it seems to me that when you disagree with someone's posts, you insult that person and call them a menopausal, estrogen-soaked sheep who owns furbabies.


 Some members this applies to.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

lego said:


> Some members this applies to.


So those members should just ignore your posts, but you're incapable of ignoring theirs?


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> So those members should just ignore your posts, but you're incapable of ignoring theirs?


 I will attempt to not get caught in the fray, so to speak LOL
I don't know any of you and truly have nothing against you at all. 
What I have a problem is how UNIFORM you all seem to be... I can send you videos proving my dog's happiness. Hell, I can send you a video of these play slaps to show you her reaction to them. 
Some members on here are sooooooo overreactive.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> I mean that if your dog gets crazy and attacks another dog, your breed will not be banned. That is all.


Thank you for clearing that up.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Entwine said:


> Thank you for clearing that up.


 Was that sarcasm? I honestly can't tell at this point.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> Was that sarcasm? I honestly can't tell at this point.


Lol, no! I'm at work so my replies are short. Sorry!


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Entwine said:


> Lol, no! I'm at work so my replies are short. Sorry!


Oh ok lol! 
I'll take responsibility to what I've stooped to on this thread but I hope that the members of this forum forgive my generalizations. I know not all of you are rabid. Just select members. 
If I don't take FULL responsibility for my dog's actions then it isn't only my dog (a HUGE part of my family) it is the BREED. MY breed, the breed that I LOVE. If that takes (for ME personally) a few swats, that is what I will do. It does not hurt me to do so and I have my own beliefs that justify why I swat.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Wait..._who_ is the over reactive one?


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> Oh ok lol!
> I'll take responsibility to what I've stooped to on this thread but I hope that the members of this forum forgive my generalizations. I know not all of you are rabid. Just select members.
> If I don't take FULL responsibility for my dog's actions then it isn't only my dog (a HUGE part of my family) it is the BREED. MY breed, the breed that I LOVE. If that takes (for ME personally) a few swats, that is what I will do. It does not hurt me to do so and I have my own beliefs that justify why I swat.


That's very big of you to take responsibility for that. Thank you. I personally appreciate the stepping up. 

Something to keep in mind with breeds is that a large amount of breeds have stigmas attached. Please consider that most people's reactions when they learn I have a Chihuahua is, "OH, I'm so sorry! I'll bet she never shuts up! She probably isn't good with kids, huh?! How do you deal with all of the barking?!" 

Dogs as little as Chihuahuas are also discriminated against--albeit not in laws, but it does happen all the same. I can relate to doing what you feel is necessary to prevent public opinion from becoming truth and having your dog fit into that negative mold. I worked very hard to curb her leash reactivity and saw great progress both for her benefit and for my own security in being able to show others Chihuahuas are not nippy little monsters.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Wait..._who_ is the over reactive one?


 I'm being attacked at all angles. It is only dogs who redirect?


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Entwine said:


> That's very big of you to take responsibility for that. Thank you. I personally appreciate the stepping up.
> 
> Something to keep in mind with breeds is that a large amount of breeds have stigmas attached. Please consider that most people's reactions when they learn I have a Chihuahua is, "OH, I'm so sorry! I'll bet she never shuts up! She probably isn't good with kids, huh?! How do you deal with all of the barking?!"
> 
> Dogs as little as Chihuahuas are also discriminated against--albeit not in laws, but it does happen all the same. I can relate to doing what you feel is necessary to prevent public opinion from becoming truth and having your dog fit into that negative mold. I worked very hard to curb her leash reactivity and saw great progress both for her benefit and for my own security in being able to show others Chihuahuas are not nippy little monsters.


I have owned Chihuahuas too. I know they also have stigmas... my Chi was AMAZING. Sweet, well-behaved, loved my kids, house broken, intelligent. One of my favourite breeds  
Still-- your breed will never be banned.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

lego said:


> I'm being attacked at all angles. It is only dogs who redirect?


No one is attacking you. You're really the only one calling names here. 

Trust me I don't think the majority of people care as much as you think they do.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> No one is attacking you. You're really the only one calling names here.
> 
> Trust me I don't think the majority of people care as much as you think they do.


 Ok. Thank you Laurelin for the clarification.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

lego said:


> I have owned Chihuahuas too. I know they also have stigmas... my Chi was AMAZING. Sweet, well-behaved, loved my kids, house broken, intelligent. One of my favourite breeds
> Still-- your breed will never be banned.


Yeah, my little girl is a great dog. We do hobby agility and she just blows everyone away. Have you posted any pictures of your pups yet? I'd love to see them.

No, it won't. I can appreciate wanting to have the best example of your breed, however.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I only wish this was a sitcom so we could have some sort of alternate universe flashes. Like ones where I'd be clutching my pearls and saying "Shammy please be good for mommy. Please, baby!"


Shambles undeterred, turns back to the eviscerated pillow and resumes his wanton destruction. The air is thick with feathers and fear as TWAB wonders in amazement how she could have raised such a savage. "Those pillows were LAURA ASHLEY!" she cries. Maybe it was the 9 months in a purse that did it. 80 lbs of dog is a lot to lug around in Prada, but she did it for the love of her furbaby! She did everything right, walked him _every day_ in that bag, even bought him matching pearls. What more could a dog need?! It was all in vain, that Prada purse met a nastier end than even Laura Ashley and her feathers could imagine.

Coming out of her reverie TWAB heard rustlings and rippings beyond the din of Shamble's mayhem. She felt a familiar prickle in the back of her neck as she realized, _he's here_. The ringleader of mayhem, the fiercest of them all and the only one who strikes fear in Shamble's strong heart. Whipping around she watches him emerge from the wreckage of the pillow slaughter, through the swirling white air to stand proudly in the chaos he has wrought before her. _Jonas_.

Looking her dead in the eye, his own laughing with malice, Jonas lifts his leg triumphantly and pees all over the remains of her couture.

TWAB faints dead away.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If I could +1 posts here, I would +1 aiw's post SO HARD.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

aiw said:


> Shambles undeterred, turns back to the eviscerated pillow and resumes his wanton destruction. The air is thick with feathers and fear as TWAB wonders in amazement how she could have raised such a savage. "Those pillows were LAURA ASHLEY!" she cries. Maybe it was the 9 months in a purse that did it. 80 lbs of dog is a lot to lug around in Prada, but she did it for the love of her furbaby! She did everything right, walked him _every day_ in that bag, even bought him matching pearls. What more could a dog need?! It was all in vain, that Prada purse met a nastier end than even Laura Ashley and her feathers could imagine.
> 
> Coming out of her reverie TWAB heard rustlings and rippings beyond the din of Shamble's mayhem. She felt a familiar prickle in the back of her neck as she realized, _he's here_. The ringleader of mayhem, the fiercest of them all and the only one who strikes fear in Shamble's strong heart. Whipping around she watches him emerge from the wreckage of the pillow slaughter, through the swirling white air to stand proudly in the chaos he has wrought before her. _Jonas_.
> 
> ...


This is pretty much literary gold.

Make this happen.


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## NyxForge (May 5, 2013)

aiw said:


> Shambles undeterred, turns back to the eviscerated pillow and resumes his wanton destruction. The air is thick with feathers and fear as TWAB wonders in amazement how she could have raised such a savage. "Those pillows were LAURA ASHLEY!" she cries. Maybe it was the 9 months in a purse that did it. 80 lbs of dog is a lot to lug around in Prada, but she did it for the love of her furbaby! She did everything right, walked him _every day_ in that bag, even bought him matching pearls. What more could a dog need?! It was all in vain, that Prada purse met a nastier end than even Laura Ashley and her feathers could imagine.
> 
> Coming out of her reverie TWAB heard rustlings and rippings beyond the din of Shamble's mayhem. She felt a familiar prickle in the back of her neck as she realized, _he's here_. The ringleader of mayhem, the fiercest of them all and the only one who strikes fear in Shamble's strong heart. Whipping around she watches him emerge from the wreckage of the pillow slaughter, through the swirling white air to stand proudly in the chaos he has wrought before her. _Jonas_.
> 
> ...


You can't just stop there! I'm riveted!

opcorn:


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> We're not disagreeing that your ACDs need rigid structure. We're just saying that it's not because they're ACDs. Most of us here use the exact same training methods you do; you're not using some unique and unusual technique. You always try to make it sound like positive trainers ignore bad behavior, while you're different because you don't... but none of us are ignoring bad behavior, either. Stuff like leaving the room when a puppy bites is still part of positive training.


I say that because there are some that do ... At least in my area.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> If you don't agree with my posts. Don't read them. That is what I would do if I disagreed with yours.
> I think you just like being on the bandwagon. With your pitchforks and torches. It gives you a sense of unity doesn't it Packet? Makes you feel.... accepted.
> That is not how I do things.


Nope...I've actually been here long enough to know I'm accepted.

I think what my real problem is...is that I have a particular soft spot for immature, impolite women with a sense of entitlement who believe that the world should bow down to them and then resort to insults when it does not. Bonus points if they then justify their ugliness with "I'm just being real." It's a personality type that I've seen all too often and it never gets any more attractive. It's a shame because in most cases, if they would just drop the tough act, they'd find themselves far more accepted and they'd benefit from help from other people.

It's not that you bother me...it's a form of entertainment. I have no illusions that anything anyone says here will make any difference in the way you behave. You likely weren't raised any better and believe that behaving this way is justified. If you do ever decide to change, it will be because you come to some kind of understanding on your own, not because someone online says something so profound that it resonates with you. In all likelihood, though, you will go on treating people and dogs the same way you always have, but it's doubtful that you and I would ever cross paths. People like us live in very different circles for a reason.

And you know...you don't have to read my posts either, sweetie.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Nope...I've actually been here long enough to know I'm accepted.
> 
> I think what my real problem is...is that I have a particular soft spot for immature, impolite women with a sense of entitlement who believe that the world should bow down to them and then resort to insults when it does not. Bonus points if they then justify their ugliness with "I'm just being real." It's a personality type that I've seen all too often and it never gets any more attractive. It's a shame because in most cases, if they would just drop the tough act, they'd find themselves far more accepted and they'd benefit from help from other people.
> 
> ...


 Fact is- you do not know me. You do not know the circles I move in. You do not know the relationship with my dog. You do NOT know how I was raised (my parents have been married for almost 28 years [first marriage] and have been in my life from the time I was born, they love each other and they love me. They even spanked me, and I can guarantee you that I didn't suffer trauma from it lol). 
What you know about me is by 93 (will be 94) posts on a dog forum. That does not define me. Nor would I say that your posts define you (hopefully not). 
I think what you must realize is that I disagree with you. Maybe you are narcisstic enough to believe that I HAVE to agree with everything you say but.... it just doesn't work like that. I have never ONCE said "this is the way we should all train our dogs"... I said this is the way *I* train my dog.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> Fact is- you do not know me. You do not know the circles I move in. You do not know the relationship with my dog. You do NOT know how I was raised (my parents have been married for almost 28 years [first marriage] and have been in my life from the time I was born, they love each other and they love me. They even spanked me, and I can guarantee you that I didn't suffer trauma from it lol).
> What you know about me is by 93 (will be 94) posts on a dog forum. That does not define me. Nor would I say that your posts define you (hopefully not).
> I think what you must realize is that I disagree with you. Maybe you are narcisstic enough to believe that I HAVE to agree with everything you say but.... it just doesn't work like that. I have never ONCE said "this is the way we should all train our dogs"... I said this is the way *I* train my dog.


What I know is how you have acted here. Based on that, I doubt you and I would share an office or meet at any social function or that we would have sat in the same classrooms. The places I go and the people I choose to associate with would not tolerate behavior like you've displayed here.

I don't believe you have to agree with me. In fact, I can't really remember any members here that I haven't disagreed with at one time or another. However, those interactions were polite and respectful when we disagreed. We didn't trade insults (one exception aside) and were still able to learn from each other. I think, if you actually read through past discussions, you might be surprised at the diversity of views on this forum. We have people who use a variety of training methods.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> What I know is how you have acted here. Based on that, I doubt you and I would share an office or meet at any social function or that we would have sat in the same classrooms. The places I go and the people I choose to associate with would not tolerate behavior like you've displayed here.
> 
> I don't believe you have to agree with me. In fact, I can't really remember any members here that I haven't disagreed with at one time or another. However, those interactions were polite and respectful when we disagreed. We didn't trade insults (one exception aside) and were still able to learn from each other. I think, if you actually read through past discussions, you might be surprised at the diversity of views on this forum. We have people who use a variety of training methods.


 As I said (I'm guessing reiteration is something that you're used to) you DO NOT know me. I'm done arguing with you.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> As I said (I'm guessing reiteration is something that you're used to) you DO NOT know me. I'm done arguing with you.


Is this flounce for real?


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

There needs to be a referee on threads like this..

Lego, red card. Packetsmom, red card. Go sit this one out on the sidelines. (Just kidding... Kind of lol)

Seriously, this isn't a discussion about what circles people hang around in. I grew up in a nice family home and I've met and hung out with people that have been involved in not so legal behavior on "their" blocks in NYC. I hate when people get all uppity like that. I've met women who are upper class stuck up snobs sippin on their tea with their pinky sticking up who were downright disgusting behaviorally and I've met people covered in tattoos and piercings who have a heart of gold. 

So, this discussion you guys have going on is just seriously ridiculous. Someone's social circle, upbringing, whatever does not make them a nice person nor a jerk. 

You guys need to stop with the insults, it's really unnecessary. Not really any of my business but I'm one of those people that can't stand seeing people trying to "hurt" each other for no damn reason. I mean really duck lips? You're seriously going to go so far as to attack someone's looks?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I've said it before, and I'm sure I've said it again. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And then everyone else is entitled to their opinion OF that opinion. Sometimes a lot of people will agree, sometimes a lot of people will disagree. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion and says so, it doesn't mean they're attacking you.


ETA: And now can we all get back to reading Shambles fanfic? Because... 



aiw said:


> Shambles undeterred, turns back to the eviscerated pillow and resumes his wanton destruction. The air is thick with feathers and fear as TWAB wonders in amazement how she could have raised such a savage. "Those pillows were LAURA ASHLEY!" she cries. Maybe it was the 9 months in a purse that did it. 80 lbs of dog is a lot to lug around in Prada, but she did it for the love of her furbaby! She did everything right, walked him _every day_ in that bag, even bought him matching pearls. What more could a dog need?! It was all in vain, that Prada purse met a nastier end than even Laura Ashley and her feathers could imagine.
> 
> Coming out of her reverie TWAB heard rustlings and rippings beyond the din of Shamble's mayhem. She felt a familiar prickle in the back of her neck as she realized, _he's here_. The ringleader of mayhem, the fiercest of them all and the only one who strikes fear in Shamble's strong heart. Whipping around she watches him emerge from the wreckage of the pillow slaughter, through the swirling white air to stand proudly in the chaos he has wrought before her. _Jonas_.
> 
> ...


Oh god in heaven yes.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

xoxluvablexox said:


> There needs to be a referee on threads like this..
> 
> Lego, red card. Packetsmom, red card. Go sit this one out on the sidelines. (Just kidding... Kind of lol)
> 
> ...


My whole point is that you don't come into a forum, start an argument, and fling insults left and right.

And the duck lips thing...I actually didn't mean that as a huge insult. That's what I've always heard those kinds of pictures called, where women purse their lips seductively and do a head tilt for the camera. It seemed an odd choice for an avatar on a dog forum.

But you're right, xoxluvablexox. I do need to go back to my corner and take the gloves off.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

xoxluvablexox said:


> There needs to be a referee on threads like this..
> 
> Lego, red card. Packetsmom, red card. Go sit this one out on the sidelines. (Just kidding... Kind of lol)
> 
> ...


 Agree. I apologize. 
Fwiw- my family lived around the poverty line. I'm not even close to being a stuck up snob lol


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> Agree. I apologize.
> Fwiw- my family lived around the poverty line. I'm not even close to being a stuck up snob lol


I think she was more worried about me being the snob. FWIW, I grew up on a farm, not exactly a royal upbringing either, but we worked hard.

I apologize as well. How about we start over?

I'm packetsmom. I don't have a dog named packet. I do have a dog named Sam. I'm in my 30's and I've had dogs pretty much my entire life. I have a particular love for GSD's, but my current dog is a St. Bernard mix. He's just 6 months old. In the past, I've had GSD's, a Sheltie, a Pug, and a Carolina Dog mix. I live in Alaska and feed 1/2 prey model raw. Sam and I enjoy hiking in the mountains and just started Schutzhund together. I'm a balanced trainer, but I try to lean more on the side of positive reinforcement whenever possible. I've trained dogs all my life, but I feel like I have a ton to learn and I learn something new all the time.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Entwine said:


> Yeah, my little girl is a great dog. We do hobby agility and she just blows everyone away. Have you posted any pictures of your pups yet? I'd love to see them.
> 
> No, it won't. I can appreciate wanting to have the best example of your breed, however.


I actually watched two Chi's in an agility competition beat the pants off larger dogs in fly all and the head to head weave poles I do not think for a minute that Chi's are interior or unstable dogs ... Unless they are owned by someone unstable & inferior lol


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I think she was more worried about me being the snob. FWIW, I grew up on a farm, not exactly a royal upbringing either, but we worked hard.
> 
> I apologize as well. How about we start over?
> 
> I'm packetsmom. I don't have a dog named packet. I do have a dog named Sam. I'm in my 30's and I've had dogs pretty much my entire life. I have a particular love for GSD's, but my current dog is a St. Bernard mix. He's just 6 months old. In the past, I've had GSD's, a Sheltie, a Pug, and a Carolina Dog mix. I live in Alaska and feed 1/2 prey model raw. Sam and I enjoy hiking in the mountains and just started Schutzhund together. I'm a balanced trainer, but I try to lean more on the side of positive reinforcement whenever possible. I've trained dogs all my life, but I feel like I have a ton to learn and I learn something new all the time.


Yes Im sure we can do that...
I live in central Canada, own a pit bull mutt and I recently acquired a Chihuahua. In my late 20's and have also owned dogs since I can remember. Began "training" when I was about 11 after I saved a giant lab mix that was about to be shot. 
I've dealt with large/problematic dogs for a LONG time, since I was a child, and obviously don't mind using physical discipline when I feel I need to. 
I've fostered almost EVERYTHING under the sun- from 2 lb chihuahuas to a 200 lb St Bernard. I also feed half PMR. 
I do no organized dog sports but my dog and I are constantly doing EVERYTHING together. 63 pound loss later, I have a knee injury so progress has slowed down.
Nice to meet you.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

aiw said:


> Shambles undeterred, turns back to the eviscerated pillow and resumes his wanton destruction. The air is thick with feathers and fear as TWAB wonders in amazement how she could have raised such a savage. "Those pillows were LAURA ASHLEY!" she cries. Maybe it was the 9 months in a purse that did it. 80 lbs of dog is a lot to lug around in Prada, but she did it for the love of her furbaby! She did everything right, walked him _every day_ in that bag, even bought him matching pearls. What more could a dog need?! It was all in vain, that Prada purse met a nastier end than even Laura Ashley and her feathers could imagine.
> 
> Coming out of her reverie TWAB heard rustlings and rippings beyond the din of Shamble's mayhem. She felt a familiar prickle in the back of her neck as she realized, _he's here_. The ringleader of mayhem, the fiercest of them all and the only one who strikes fear in Shamble's strong heart. Whipping around she watches him emerge from the wreckage of the pillow slaughter, through the swirling white air to stand proudly in the chaos he has wrought before her. _Jonas_.
> 
> ...


Oh my god I am dying. How the thread continued after this I don't know.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Oh my god I am dying. How the thread continued after this I don't know.


To be honest, I didn't read through it until now, but the picture in my head of you carrying Sham around in a prada purse is pretty darn funny. You and your furbabies!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Oh my god I am dying. How the thread continued after this I don't know.


Can we have a forum dedicated to Shambles fanfic stories??? I *need* to know how this ends.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

packetsmom said:


> To be honest, I didn't read through it until now, but the picture in my head of you carrying Sham around in a prada purse is pretty darn funny. You and your furbabies!


Well the story is erroneous! I prefer Coach.



RabbleFox said:


> Can we have a forum dedicated to Shambles fanfic stories??? I *need* to know how this ends.


The day to day horror stories aren't enough?!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

It's never enough. :|


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Can we have a forum dedicated to Shambles fanfic stories??? I *need* to know how this ends.


I picture TWAB fainting away and Jonas and Shambles slinking away. A few moments later, Jack McCoy comes on the scene and tilts his head. "What happened here?" He wonders. He begins to investigate, carefully sniffing through the remains of the embossed fabric, the tassels of the pillows, the urine which tells him the dog that did this has eaten a tastier treat than him three days ago. Yes, it's all coming together...

TWAB wakes up, at first thinking she must have been dreaming. Her babies could not have done this, not after all the times she stayed up late sewing them new matching outfits, painting their claws to match her manicured nails...it simply could NOT be true. She sits up, fanning herself and blinking only to see Jack McCoy, his face down in the feathers and furiously humping the remains of the tattered pillow, frustrated by his findings.

...and she promptly faints dead away again.


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## Blueduck1105 (Sep 17, 2013)

Well that was an amusing day. Thanks to all parties! Glad to see everyone is at peace...at least as far as we can tell 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

RabbleFox said:


> It's never enough. :|


Your daily jerk: 












packetsmom said:


> I picture TWAB fainting away and Jonas and Shambles slinking away. A few moments later, Jack McCoy comes on the scene and tilts his head. "What happened here?" He wonders. He begins to investigate, carefully sniffing through the remains of the embossed fabric, the tassels of the pillows, the urine which tells him the dog that did this has eaten a tastier treat than him three days ago. Yes, it's all coming together...
> 
> TWAB wakes up, at first thinking she must have been dreaming. Her babies could not have done this, not after all the times she stayed up late sewing them new matching outfits, painting their claws to match her manicured nails...it simply could NOT be true. She sits up, fanning herself and blinking only to see Jack McCoy, his face down in the feathers and furiously humping the remains of the tattered pillow, frustrated by his findings.
> 
> ...and she promptly faints dead away again.


This is all very well and good but when is the part where I leave for Hawaii with Hugh Jackman?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

That would have to be one hell of a big purse. Clearly TWAB is She-Hulk.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I think I weigh about 15-20 lbs more than Sham. I am hulk strong though.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I think I weigh about 15-20 lbs more than Sham. I am hulk strong though.


If you spend your time hauling your obviously fluffy fur babies around in custom Prada, you get ripped.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> I picture TWAB fainting away and Jonas and Shambles slinking away. A few moments later, Jack McCoy comes on the scene and tilts his head. "What happened here?" He wonders. He begins to investigate, carefully sniffing through the remains of the embossed fabric, the tassels of the pillows, the urine which tells him the dog that did this has eaten a tastier treat than him three days ago. Yes, it's all coming together...
> 
> TWAB wakes up, at first thinking she must have been dreaming. Her babies could not have done this, not after all the times she stayed up late sewing them new matching outfits, painting their claws to match her manicured nails...it simply could NOT be true. She sits up, fanning herself and blinking only to see Jack McCoy, his face down in the feathers and furiously humping the remains of the tattered pillow, frustrated by his findings.
> 
> ...and she promptly faints dead away again.


Ha! I like that one. 

Jack McCoy enters from the kitchen and lets out a mournful howl as he sees the remains of his favorite humping pillow. Everything falls to the terror that is Jonas. He swears vengeance before saying a sweet goodbye to Ashley. 

Magpie looks on in the distance and shakes her head sagely. And thus it begins.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think I see Sham's halloween costume...an oversized Prada bag, with holes cut out for his legs, his head and neck out the top and huge handles up on his back.

Brilliant!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

As if I'd put any effort into something he'll destroy off his own back.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

aiw said:


> Ha! I like that one.
> 
> Jack McCoy enters from the kitchen and lets out a mournful howl as he sees the remains of his favorite humping pillow. Everything falls to the terror that is Jonas. He swears vengeance before saying a sweet goodbye to Ashley.
> 
> Magpie looks on in the distance and shakes her head sagely. And thus it begins.


Shambles leaves Jonas, the two exchanging knowing glances as they part. It's clear Jonas has fallen for his plan and thinks that the two are partners in crime, but really, this is all part of Shambles's diabolical scheme. He circles back around, peeking into the room in time to see Jack McCoy's vengeful glare towards Jonas's favorite bed, the Martha Stewart one that TWAB sewed herself, stuffing it with siberian goose down and using only the best important silk. The woman had shed tears over that dog bed, but it had been worth the effort when she'd seen her furbaby lay his precious head upon it. Shambles let his lips lift in a grin as he watched Jack stalk over to the dog bed, pounce upon it and begin ripping the fabric, adding to the feathers covering the floor with maniacal glee.

Magpie looks away from the chaos for a moment and spies Shambles lurking in the doorway and tilts her head. She senses there is more to this and goes to TWAB, thrusting her nose in her Mistress's armpit, trying to revive her in her best imitation of Lassie. Instead of waking and gratefully thanking the dog, TWAB awakens and is horrified to see that her own silk blouse, bought from Nordstrom's, not JC Penney, now has dog slobber on the armpits and magpie's handmade bow has slipped from her head where it was carefully taped and slid onto the urine soaked floor!

Her eyes narrow...and she stands up, furious, and walks over to the closet where a bag of Ol' Roy secretly hides...


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

What will happen next?! 

I sense ignoring the behavior and then offering heaping bowls of the only delectable and nutritious food they'll eat- Ol' Roy. Will TWAB resort to bribery to change her fur babies behavior?!

Classic PR.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

lego said:


> That said dog could be miles away.... wouldn't mean a thing.
> Look, I'm not going to try to explain DA from a bull/terrier breed to anyone here because you don't know until you know.
> What I will say is this- I do not know everything about dog training. I don't even think I know the tip of the iceberg. What I DO KNOW is that my dog is physically corrected at times and she is healthy/balanced/loved.
> When I do what I do, it is not only to keep my dog (and her breed's reputation) safe... it also keeping all of YOUR dogs safe as well.
> ...



I had to pry my friends deaf Bull Terrier off one of my Rotties one time. My dog dropped on command and I had to grab the Bull Terrier by the neck/collar and literally pick her up off the ground and haul her 60 or so pounds into a different room. Thankfully my dog stayed where he was told but that Bull Terrier was as determined as any dog I have ever seen. 30-45 minutes later that dog was still trying to get into the other room to go after my dog. She didn't lose focus even after all that time. Some dogs ARE just harder then others. All the clicking and treating wouldn't change that in that dog. She is intense to say the least. 

I too must jump into the "I abuse my dogs" boat, I guess. I have used leash pops and in rare circumstances used a shock collar (vibrate collar) I think it is easy to say never to use corrections but there is a big difference in handling an intense 60-125 pound dog vs. an intense 25-40 lb dog. I love my dogs, I feed them the best food that I can get for them, give them treats, soft beds to sleep on. They are my kids (in my mind and theirs) but there are also a few rules and they MUST be followed. I give firm corrections for disobeying those rules. Aggression is a NO and will be corrected if they show signs or it. I would say I do about 98% positive training but I will admit that I have given some very firm pops on the leash and yes, I have yelled and even given a good tap to my dogs when I needed to redirect. If that is abuse then I guess I abuse my dogs. I do not alpha roll as I do not believe it to be affective AND I probably couldn't physically flip my heavy dogs if I wanted to. I do not believe in most of what Cesar does but I do believe in the exercise, discipline and then affection mantra. There would be a lot of happy dogs in the world that are not currently happy if more would use that. 

I don't believe the shelter did the wrong thing by not adopting the dog to someone that had to alpha roll their dog while visiting the new dog. Even if I were not against alpha rolls (which I am) I would question their ability to handle another dog when they currently have a dog that is so ill mannered to need such corrections. THAT dog obviously isn't trained well enough or ready to have another dog in the house. Her pack isn't balanced as she thinks if she has to do such things.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Inga said:


> I had to pry my friends deaf Bull Terrier off one of my Rotties one time. My dog dropped on command and I had to grab the Bull Terrier by the neck/collar and literally pick her up off the ground and haul her 60 or so pounds into a different room. Thankfully my dog stayed where he was told but that Bull Terrier was as determined as any dog I have ever seen. 30-45 minutes later that dog was still trying to get into the other room to go after my dog. She didn't lose focus even after all that time. Some dogs ARE just harder then others. All the clicking and treating wouldn't change that in that dog. She is intense to say the least.
> 
> I too must jump into the "I abuse my dogs" boat, I guess. I have used leash pops and in rare circumstances used a shock collar (vibrate collar) I think it is easy to say never to use corrections but there is a big difference in handling an intense 60-125 pound dog vs. an intense 25-40 lb dog. I love my dogs, I feed them the best food that I can get for them, give them treats, soft beds to sleep on. They are my kids (in my mind and theirs) but there are also a few rules and they MUST be followed. I give firm corrections for disobeying those rules. Aggression is a NO and will be corrected if they show signs or it. I would say I do about 98% positive training but I will admit that I have given some very firm pops on the leash and yes, I have yelled and even given a good tap to my dogs when I needed to redirect. If that is abuse then I guess I abuse my dogs. I do not alpha roll as I do not believe it to be affective AND I probably couldn't physically flip my heavy dogs if I wanted to. I do not believe in most of what Cesar does but I do believe in the exercise, discipline and then affection mantra. There would be a lot of happy dogs in the world that are not currently happy if more would use that.
> 
> I don't believe the shelter did the wrong thing by not adopting the dog to someone that had to alpha roll their dog while visiting the new dog. Even if I were not against alpha rolls (which I am) I would question their ability to handle another dog when they currently have a dog that is so ill mannered to need such corrections. THAT dog obviously isn't trained well enough or ready to have another dog in the house. Her pack isn't balanced as she thinks if she has to do such things.


Thank you for being honest about it. You could have just as easily not posted at all... it's nice to meet a fellow dog abuser


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I use leash pops too occasionally, not hard ones but Roxie has really bad focus and it serves to get her attention if needed. It's not even enough to move her, just enough for her to realize I want her to look at me. Sometimes I give an even gentler pull back when Faxon pulls as it causes her to look round at me and fall back again.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

lego said:


> Thank you for being honest about it. You could have just as easily not posted at all... it's nice to meet a fellow dog abuser



LOL Well truth is, I don't think that a leash pop on a 110-125 pound determined dog is really to harsh. I have had many abused dogs over the years (PRE abused not by me. ha ha) many of those dogs came with some scary temperament issues. Like I said above I do about 98% positive but when certain issues arise, a POP is needed to keep everyone safe. I don't do leash pops for things like "you didn't roll over when I said roll over" it is for dangerous or scary behavior. Lunging at someone or something etc... If I was doing these type of leash pops on a 25 pound dog, that would be silly. I could pick up a 25 pound dog and walk away from the situation but I can't do that with a 110-125 pound dogs. Not even when I was in my prime could I pick up a squiggling determined Rottweiler.


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## wespom (Aug 18, 2013)

The last rescue I worked with was full of ceased milan lovers. They even went to a seminar and were constantly rough with their dogs. In fact their main dog trainer was cm certified and a registered sex offender. I am no longer with that rescue. =-)


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I do leash corrections. There actually are quite a few of us on here who do. I see a difference between a leash pop and smacking your dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Inga said:


> I had to pry my friends deaf Bull Terrier off one of my Rotties one time. My dog dropped on command and I had to grab the Bull Terrier by the neck/collar and literally pick her up off the ground and haul her 60 or so pounds into a different room. Thankfully my dog stayed where he was told but that Bull Terrier was as determined as any dog I have ever seen. 30-45 minutes later that dog was still trying to get into the other room to go after my dog. She didn't lose focus even after all that time. Some dogs ARE just harder then others. All the clicking and treating wouldn't change that in that dog. She is intense to say the least.
> 
> I too must jump into the "I abuse my dogs" boat, I guess. I have used leash pops and in rare circumstances used a shock collar (vibrate collar) I think it is easy to say never to use corrections but there is a big difference in handling an intense 60-125 pound dog vs. an intense 25-40 lb dog. I love my dogs, I feed them the best food that I can get for them, give them treats, soft beds to sleep on. They are my kids (in my mind and theirs) but there are also a few rules and they MUST be followed. I give firm corrections for disobeying those rules. Aggression is a NO and will be corrected if they show signs or it. I would say I do about 98% positive training but I will admit that I have given some very firm pops on the leash and yes, I have yelled and even given a good tap to my dogs when I needed to redirect. If that is abuse then I guess I abuse my dogs. I do not alpha roll as I do not believe it to be affective AND I probably couldn't physically flip my heavy dogs if I wanted to. I do not believe in most of what Cesar does but I do believe in the exercise, discipline and then affection mantra. There would be a lot of happy dogs in the world that are not currently happy if more would use that.
> 
> I don't believe the shelter did the wrong thing by not adopting the dog to someone that had to alpha roll their dog while visiting the new dog. Even if I were not against alpha rolls (which I am) I would question their ability to handle another dog when they currently have a dog that is so ill mannered to need such corrections. THAT dog obviously isn't trained well enough or ready to have another dog in the house. Her pack isn't balanced as she thinks if she has to do such things.


I wish there was a like button ... I really really do


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I do leash corrections. There actually are quite a few of us on here who do. I see a difference between a leash pop and smacking your dog.


Right. I think I was trying to say this a few pages back but got buried.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I do leash corrections. There actually are quite a few of us on here who do. I see a difference between a leash pop and smacking your dog.


My dog is leash reactive and while I used a few leash pops for training loose leash walking, I would not and do not use them when the dog is over threshold. 

Seeing as I can't punish him for tweaking and going into his "red zone", neither leash pops nor smacks would gather his attention appropriately. I'd like calm, focused attention. Not frantic "WT*" attention. I strive to put him into situations where he will be slightly under threshold so that training can occur. If we go over threshold, say a dog is walking towards us and we cannot avoid him, I do my best to quietly drag him away* until he is back under threshold. When my dog locks onto another dog, be it by scent, sight, or tell-tale collar jingle, it's very difficult to get his attention. But I don't resort to smacking. A tap on the back maybe like you'd tap a friends shoulder to say hey. 

Neither leash pops nor smacking do anyone any good in a situation where your dog is so focused that you don't matter. You have to build up to those situations so that you don't feel compelled to pop or smack the dog. If its a dangerous situation and you cannot possibly drag your dog away, perhaps you should look into a walking tool to assit you in controlling your dog. 

Training can't occur over threshold. I can't expect my dog to be in control of himself in those situations as I have not trained him to be in control and he is not ready for those situations. 

I also don't think dogs can be willing obtuse. 

*Note: My dog is only 50lbs so dragging away is an option for me. 
**Side note: The "you"s in this post are meant to be taken generally. 

More Shambles, please.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I think folks were referencing that fact that they use leash pops & "touches" before the dog tips over the hill of "aggression no return". 

Excmple: If I was going to use a leash pop, I would use it when my dog first started fixating on the other dog, I wouldn't wait until they had gone into "red zone" to tey to distract them.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I think folks were referencing that fact that they use leash pops & "touches" before the dog tips over the hill of "aggression no return".
> 
> Excmple: If I was going to use a leash pop, I would use it when my dog first started fixating on the other dog, I wouldn't *wait until they had gone into "red zone" to tey to distract them*.


This is exactly what a poster was claiming they did, so I'm presuming that's what the replies are referencing.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I cant speak for the other replies but that's what I was referencing LOL.

Man when I woke up the other day this thread had jumped from 10 to like ... 13 pages & I had to catch up ... my head hurt afterward. *_*


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> This is exactly what a poster was claiming they did, so I'm presuming that's what the replies are referencing.


 Yes and no. I have done it when my dogs have been over threshold but there are other times where I have implemented it as well. 
I think I must have gotten two stories mixed up....? I have dealt with dogs over threshold. I have dealt with dogs wishing to rip tracheas out. My dog is actually not even DA (yet). I think I confused something along the lines here... I tend to do that when frazzled. 
When I was a kid, I had my Lab mix (MASSIVE dog, possibly well over 100-125 pounds of solid muscle) and he "turned on" when he saw his brother. He had been fine with him the entire time and just one day decided-- I HATE you. I was 12 and yes I smacked him when he started getting owley and he quit (although I DID also have to remove him from the situation). 
My dog has gotten smacked... as I said, I can count it on two hands. They aren't beatings or "whoopings", just a slight pop on the butt to redirect attention. It works efficiently for me. As do leash pops. 
Trust me, to a bull/terrier type-- a smack on the butt is like a mosquito landing on them. 
If I told you that I alpha rolled my dog, whilst beating it in the ribs and making her submit to me.... THEN I could understand this level of outrage. I don't do that. 
But hey-- carry on. I think people just enjoy repeating themselves.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> But-- a "hey I'm talking to you touch" is different for every dog. Would I smack a Papillon like I would a "pit bull"...? Absolutely not.
> Some dogs are "harder" then others. Some breeds/individuals will not respond to positive reinforcement like others will. I would love to see some people attempting to lure, click, treat an APBT when they are full fledged attempting to KILL another dog. It would be highly entertaining.
> Some dogs need different training methods then most others. Would positive reinforcement/luring and capturing been enough for my late Poodle? Yep. My late JRT bitch? Yep. My pit bull mutt... not so much. Trust me-- you'll be glad I gave my dog a thump when it's trying to rip your little chihuahua's trachea out... I can guarantee you that.


Above is the post I was referring to. I would also appreciate it if you could quit it with the personal jabs to myself and others, it's unnecessary and isn't helpful to anyone.

ETA: I'm also not sure why you keep insisting that I don't have any experience with bull/terrier type breeds, or at least speaking to me like I don't.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I think folks were referencing that fact that they use leash pops & "touches" before the dog tips over the hill of "aggression no return".
> 
> Excmple: If I was going to use a leash pop, I would use it when my dog first started fixating on the other dog, I wouldn't wait until they had gone into "red zone" to tey to distract them.



Exactly! Also, my "touches" might look a little like a bit of a smack to someone but... I am dealing with a 110 lb dog, not a 40 lb dog. I obviously wouldn't need a "TOUCH" vs a "touch" that I might need on a smaller dog. When my dogs go from 0-60 in 1.2 seconds, it is best to TOUCH and POP if needed at .5 seconds and then redirect positively. I might POP/TOUCH and then say "watch" as soon as the focus for even a second comes back to me, It becomes "Good boy, let's go...." as we walk happily past or around or whatever. The POP/TOUCH was needed to get the focus back to me. If that is abuse then yeah, I do abuse my dogs. I sometimes add in abusive words like NO, or WRONG when they are doing something undesirable as well. 

The point of this thread however was more about a woman who Alpha Rolled her dog at a shelter/rescue while going to do a doggy meet and greet. I still do not believe there is a place in dog training for Alpha Rolls. They just do not accomplish anything. I remember when Cesar started getting big all the armchair trainers showing up at the shelter "Chtt" to every dog no matter what the dogs were doing. I would be standing there laughing because the person always looked confused when the dog didn't automatically know what they meant by that "Chtt" noise. ha ha

I am also not ANTI Cesar Milan as so many people seem to think of him as the devil. I would totally trust him to walk my dogs down the street. I do not believe that he would be mean to my dogs at all. I think he truly loves dogs and though his methods are not my methods and never will be, I don't think he is as bad as some folks would make him out to be. I think that some of what he does is likely encouraged by the studio for ratings. I think the most dangerous thing about Cesar Milan is the want to be trainers who don't listen to the KEY advice he gives which is exercise, discipline and then affection. They like to jump into "Chtt" and poking and then somehow think they are the ULTRA TRAINER because they can throw their dog down on it's side or back. They have no clue what the heck they are doing and accomplish nothing. I too would deny one of those idiots a dog if it were in my care.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Above is the post I was referring to. I would also appreciate it if you could quit it with the personal jabs to myself and others, it's unnecessary and isn't helpful to anyone.
> 
> ETA: I'm also not sure why you keep insisting that I don't have any experience with bull/terrier type breeds, or at least speaking to me like I don't.


 I'm saying that he thread was resolved and then all of the sudden, it wasn't. 
I didn't insist anything. That is your mistaken perception. 
Good day ireth.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Inga said:


> Exactly! Also, my "touches" might look a little like a bit of a smack to someone but... I am dealing with a 110 lb dog, not a 40 lb dog. I obviously wouldn't need a "TOUCH" vs a "touch" that I might need on a smaller dog. When my dogs go from 0-60 in 1.2 seconds, it is best to TOUCH and POP if needed at .5 seconds and then redirect positively. I might POP/TOUCH and then say "watch" as soon as the focus for even a second comes back to me, It becomes "Good boy, let's go...." as we walk happily past or around or whatever. The POP/TOUCH was needed to get the focus back to me. If that is abuse then yeah, I do abuse my dogs. I sometimes add in abusive words like NO, or WRONG when they are doing something undesirable as well.
> 
> The point of this thread however was more about a woman who Alpha Rolled her dog at a shelter/rescue while going to do a doggy meet and greet. I still do not believe there is a place in dog training for Alpha Rolls. They just do not accomplish anything. I remember when Cesar started getting big all the armchair trainers showing up at the shelter "Chtt" to every dog no matter what the dogs were doing. I would be standing there laughing because the person always looked confused when the dog didn't automatically know what they meant by that "Chtt" noise. ha ha
> 
> I am also not ANTI Cesar Milan as so many people seem to think of him as the devil. I would totally trust him to walk my dogs down the street. I do not believe that he would be mean to my dogs at all. I think he truly loves dogs and though his methods are not my methods and never will be, I don't think he is as bad as some folks would make him out to be. I think that some of what he does is likely encouraged by the studio for ratings. I think the most dangerous thing about Cesar Milan is the want to be trainers who don't listen to the KEY advice he gives which is exercise, discipline and then affection. They like to jump into "Chtt" and poking and then somehow think they are the ULTRA TRAINER because they can throw their dog down on it's side or back. They have no clue what the heck they are doing and accomplish nothing. I too would deny one of those idiots a dog if it were in my care.


 EXACTLY! Especially about CM. 
His methods work for him, that doesn't mean everyone should try it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Inga said:


> Exactly! Also, my "touches" might look a little like a bit of a smack to someone but... I am dealing with a 110 lb dog, not a 40 lb dog. I obviously wouldn't need a "TOUCH" vs a "touch" that I might need on a smaller dog. When my dogs go from 0-60 in 1.2 seconds, it is best to TOUCH and POP if needed at .5 seconds and then redirect positively. I might POP/TOUCH and then say "watch" as soon as the focus for even a second comes back to me, It becomes "Good boy, let's go...." as we walk happily past or around or whatever. The POP/TOUCH was needed to get the focus back to me. If that is abuse then yeah, I do abuse my dogs. I sometimes add in abusive words like NO, or WRONG when they are doing something undesirable as well.
> 
> The point of this thread however was more about a woman who Alpha Rolled her dog at a shelter/rescue while going to do a doggy meet and greet. I still do not believe there is a place in dog training for Alpha Rolls. They just do not accomplish anything. I remember when Cesar started getting big all the armchair trainers showing up at the shelter "Chtt" to every dog no matter what the dogs were doing. I would be standing there laughing because the person always looked confused when the dog didn't automatically know what they meant by that "Chtt" noise. ha ha
> 
> I am also not ANTI Cesar Milan as so many people seem to think of him as the devil. I would totally trust him to walk my dogs down the street. I do not believe that he would be mean to my dogs at all. I think he truly loves dogs and though his methods are not my methods and never will be, I don't think he is as bad as some folks would make him out to be. I think that some of what he does is likely encouraged by the studio for ratings. I think the most dangerous thing about Cesar Milan is the want to be trainers who don't listen to the KEY advice he gives which is exercise, discipline and then affection. They like to jump into "Chtt" and poking and then somehow think they are the ULTRA TRAINER because they can throw their dog down on it's side or back. They have no clue what the heck they are doing and accomplish nothing. I too would deny one of those idiots a dog if it were in my care.


I don't think it's abuse at all, but a way to get the dog's attention, as you say. I wouldn't refer to it as a training method.

When it's portrayed as an alternative to PR training, then it sounds like you're (general 'you') just smacking your dog until they learn to ignore the stimulus, which is what I, at least, took issue with.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I don't think it's abuse at all, but a way to get the dog's attention, as you say. I wouldn't refer to it as a training method.
> 
> When it's portrayed as an alternative to PR training, then it sounds like you're (general 'you') just smacking your dog until they learn to ignore the stimulus, which is what I, at least, took issue with.


Maybe it's not for you to "take issue with"? I mean, it is not your dogs we are discussing training, it is ours... I'm not comprehending how that affects you?
I suppose you do have your right to an opinion but I can guarantee you that your opinion won't matter a whit when I'm training (yes TRAINING) my dog. I can't speak for Inga obviously.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

lego said:


> Maybe it's not for you to "take issue with"? I mean, it is not your dogs we are discussing training, it is ours... I'm not comprehending how that affects you?
> I suppose you do have your right to an opinion but I can guarantee you that your opinion won't matter a whit when I'm training (yes TRAINING) my dog. I can't speak for Inga obviously.


By training you mean smacking them til they ignore what you want them to ignore because they dont want to get smacked? Look ... I have been there, I used to be a "smacker" but now I have learned there are other ways to train a dog then smacking ... I just wish I could have learned it sooner because my relationships with a lot of dogs could have been better


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

This! Absolutely this!

I take all for of our dogs on a walk, by myself. 
It's all about discipline, control, obedience, exercise and then affection. If it wasn't for that, I couldn't walk all four of them together. 

With powerful breeds like that, the foundation is positive, it's all food and toy based. But once they know whats going on and the horses still go through with them. They'll get a pop. You cannot let them take charge of the situation. 



Inga said:


> Exactly! Also, my "touches" might look a little like a bit of a smack to someone but... I am dealing with a 110 lb dog, not a 40 lb dog. I obviously wouldn't need a "TOUCH" vs a "touch" that I might need on a smaller dog. When my dogs go from 0-60 in 1.2 seconds, it is best to TOUCH and POP if needed at .5 seconds and then redirect positively. I might POP/TOUCH and then say "watch" as soon as the focus for even a second comes back to me, It becomes "Good boy, let's go...." as we walk happily past or around or whatever. The POP/TOUCH was needed to get the focus back to me. If that is abuse then yeah, I do abuse my dogs. I sometimes add in abusive words like NO, or WRONG when they are doing something undesirable as well.
> 
> The point of this thread however was more about a woman who Alpha Rolled her dog at a shelter/rescue while going to do a doggy meet and greet. I still do not believe there is a place in dog training for Alpha Rolls. They just do not accomplish anything. I remember when Cesar started getting big all the armchair trainers showing up at the shelter "Chtt" to every dog no matter what the dogs were doing. I would be standing there laughing because the person always looked confused when the dog didn't automatically know what they meant by that "Chtt" noise. ha ha
> 
> I am also not ANTI Cesar Milan as so many people seem to think of him as the devil. I would totally trust him to walk my dogs down the street. I do not believe that he would be mean to my dogs at all. I think he truly loves dogs and though his methods are not my methods and never will be, I don't think he is as bad as some folks would make him out to be. I think that some of what he does is likely encouraged by the studio for ratings. I think the most dangerous thing about Cesar Milan is the want to be trainers who don't listen to the KEY advice he gives which is exercise, discipline and then affection. They like to jump into "Chtt" and poking and then somehow think they are the ULTRA TRAINER because they can throw their dog down on it's side or back. They have no clue what the heck they are doing and accomplish nothing. I too would deny one of those idiots a dog if it were in my care.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> By training you mean smacking them til they ignore what you want them to ignore because they dont want to get smacked? Look ... I have been there, I used to be a "smacker" but now I have learned there are other ways to train a dog then smacking ... I just wish I could have learned it sooner because my relationships with a lot of dogs could have been better


 Can ya'll not see what I've been typing? Or maybe my posts aren't working? 
I said I have only smacked her a few times in her 2 year life. So if I were to "smack her until she ignores what I want her to ignore" then it would have to be very repetitious/frequent. Have we gotten this figured out now? 
I'm starting to get very frustrated with this group. It's like reading comprehension went out the window along with emotional control.
Even if I did, theoretically, smack the way you describe (and I don't); that is my prerogative. Yes? Can we all just accept that?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I said;



ireth0 said:


> I don't think it's abuse at all, but a way to get the dog's attention, as you say. I wouldn't refer to it as a training method.
> 
> When it's portrayed as an alternative to PR training, then it sounds like you're (general 'you') just smacking your dog until they learn to ignore the stimulus, which is what I, at least, took issue with.


And then you said;



lego said:


> Maybe it's not for you to "take issue with"? I mean, it is not your dogs we are discussing training, it is ours... I'm not comprehending how that affects you?
> I suppose you do have your right to an opinion but I can guarantee you that your opinion won't matter a whit when I'm training (yes TRAINING) my dog. I can't speak for Inga obviously.


Which, yes, sounds like you're saying you use that method of training.



lego said:


> Can ya'll not see what I've been typing? Or maybe my posts aren't working?
> I said I have only smacked her a few times in her 2 year life. So if I were to "smack her until she ignores what I want her to ignore" then it would have to be very repetitious/frequent. Have we gotten this figured out now?
> I'm starting to get very frustrated with this group. It's like reading comprehension went out the window along with emotional control.
> Even if I did, theoretically, smack the way you describe (and I don't); *that is my prerogative.* Yes? Can we all just accept that?


You have a right to, we also have a right to discuss it and voice our opinions when you come on a dog forum discussion board and mention it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

lego said:


> Maybe it's not for you to "take issue with"? I mean, it is not your dogs we are discussing training, it is ours... I'm not comprehending how that affects you?


If it comes down to that, nothing affects me. If that guy wants to work his dog over with a vacuum hose, it doesn't affect me. If Patrick's owner wanted to starve him to death, that doesn't affect me. If people want to beat their kids or wives or whoever, that doesn't affect me. I guess I'm saying, where is the line drawn when it comes to what we're allowed to take issue with? But regardless, sharing opinions is hardly trampling on anybody's "right" to do as they please.


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

lego said:


> Can ya'll not see what I've been typing? Or maybe my posts aren't working?
> I said I have only smacked her a few times in her 2 year life. So if I were to "smack her until she ignores what I want her to ignore" then it would have to be very repetitious/frequent. Have we gotten this figured out now?
> I'm starting to get very frustrated with this group. It's like reading comprehension went out the window along with emotional control.
> Even if I did, theoretically, smack the way you describe (and I don't); that is my prerogative. Yes? Can we all just accept that?



Do you understand that you are part of a discussion group? A discussion group where people give thier opinions and experience, so if you want us to accept that it's your prerogative for you to smack your dog, then accept that it's our prerogative that we are going to give you our opinions and experience about it.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Some people...just don't get the whole point of a discussion forum.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

There are higher levels of correction that I don't want to go there (don't want to introduce or open that can of worms ),,,, because I have no desire to have to sustain them for the course of a dogs life time especially if they are going to be large dogs and especially if they have more intense characteristics to their nature. And that comes from seeing the difference (by my own hands) starting out in the dogs with the popping, where correction is given first for higher skills , before the training of the foundation skills is learned... For me if the foundation training is not accomplished you have nothing to build on for advance training.. that goes for a 5lb animal , 100lb+ animal, and also works for my to 2000lb animals...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have a 12 lb dog and I have 110lb 10 month old puppy - who needs to stop growing soon, please. Puppy is a herding/guardian breed mix, who acts an awful lot like both (high energy, high drive, very large, very strong, and exhibits herding behavior, tends toward stubborn as snot and generally disinterested in pleasing). This sometimes presents unique challenges because of his size. To that end I use a prong collar. I have been harsher with him at times because behavior he engages in is more likely to fall into the category of 'that has to stop NOW, or someone/something (including him) is at risk of serious physical harm'. Those situations are still exceedingly rare - and has amounted to use of a prong collar when out walking for now, so I don't get yanked face first into the sidewalk when a bunny bolts by (we're working on it), and one really solid yell and abrupt time out with some glowering for herding autistic children on the stairs. 

However, my *training methods* do not vary one iota between him and the 12lb dog. 

So, I Sort of get both sides of this. If, however, you have to 'touch' your dog with any force on a regular basis, something's... off, somewhere.

I mean, frankly, I don't want to be in a situation where me correcting Thud involves rolling him onto his back or engaging in some kind of physical altercation with him. If it's a one time situation where I can apply enough aversive stimulus to make it not happen again, great, but a contentious relationship with a dog who can eat me for lunch strikes me as far more dangerous than teaching and working with him. If I have a physical confrontation with Thud, or scare him into thinking he has to defend himself - I'm going to loose.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I have a 12 lb dog and I have 110lb 10 month old puppy - who needs to stop growing soon, please.


Holy smokes! Thud has gotten huge! I feel like he was just a derpy puppy a couple months ago...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Holy smokes! Thud has gotten huge! I feel like he was just a derpy puppy a couple months ago...


He's still a derpy puppy! He's also still all legs and head. 

He's just a really big derpy puppy.... Every time I go 'oh hey, he stopped growing so fast' I have to loosen his collar another inch.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Inga said:


> Exactly! Also, my "touches" might look a little like a bit of a smack to someone but... I am dealing with a 110 lb dog, not a 40 lb dog. I obviously wouldn't need a "TOUCH" vs a "touch" that I might need on a smaller dog. When my dogs go from 0-60 in 1.2 seconds, it is best to TOUCH and POP if needed at .5 seconds and then redirect positively. I might POP/TOUCH and then say "watch" as soon as the focus for even a second comes back to me, It becomes "Good boy, let's go...." as we walk happily past or around or whatever. The POP/TOUCH was needed to get the focus back to me. If that is abuse then yeah, I do abuse my dogs. I sometimes add in abusive words like NO, or WRONG when they are doing something undesirable as well.
> 
> The point of this thread however was more about a woman who Alpha Rolled her dog at a shelter/rescue while going to do a doggy meet and greet. I still do not believe there is a place in dog training for Alpha Rolls. They just do not accomplish anything. I remember when Cesar started getting big all the armchair trainers showing up at the shelter "Chtt" to every dog no matter what the dogs were doing. I would be standing there laughing because the person always looked confused when the dog didn't automatically know what they meant by that "Chtt" noise. ha ha
> 
> I am also not ANTI Cesar Milan as so many people seem to think of him as the devil. I would totally trust him to walk my dogs down the street. I do not believe that he would be mean to my dogs at all. I think he truly loves dogs and though his methods are not my methods and never will be, I don't think he is as bad as some folks would make him out to be. I think that some of what he does is likely encouraged by the studio for ratings. I think the most dangerous thing about Cesar Milan is the want to be trainers who don't listen to the KEY advice he gives which is exercise, discipline and then affection. They like to jump into "Chtt" and poking and then somehow think they are the ULTRA TRAINER because they can throw their dog down on it's side or back. They have no clue what the heck they are doing and accomplish nothing. I too would deny one of those idiots a dog if it were in my care.


While I totally agree that is what you were talking about Inga, it really isn't what lego was saying. Ireth0 quoted one of the posts where she clearly says "if my dog was trying to rip your dog's throat out, you think he'll hear a clicker? No, I'm going to smack him". Aside from it being an obvious menace to all the rest of us dog owners on the street. I don't consider that intelligent training, even aversive-based training - which I don't think is universal abuse.

I doubt anyone here is suggesting leash pops are abuse either. I use them and I've poked Pete to get his attention focused on me, but IMO its a very blunt instrument and not a useful tool for 95% of dogs in 95% of situations. Things should never get to the point of beating your dog with a belt to teach him a lesson (I think it was lego who mentioned that one). That is a huge failure on the trainer's part. Set the dog up for success by teaching it the right thing in a situation where it can actually learn.

At least that's my take on all this.

As for Cesar Millan, I don't think he's the devil, but I would not trust him long term with my dog. The leash pop and 'touches' can be good tools, but I feel I've found a better way to work with my rather soft dog that won't shut him down. From what I've seen the average dog doesn't require or respond well to exclusively negative training like he uses. Just my thoughts on him.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

aiw said:


> While I totally agree that is what you were talking about Inga, it really isn't what lego was saying. Ireth0 quoted one of the posts where she clearly says "if my dog was trying to rip your dog's throat out, you think he'll hear a clicker? No, I'm going to smack him". Aside from it being an obvious menace to all the rest of us dog owners on the street. I don't consider that intelligent training, even aversive-based training - which I don't think is universal abuse.
> 
> I doubt anyone here is suggesting leash pops are abuse either. I use them and I've poked Pete to get his attention focused on me, but IMO its a very blunt instrument and not a useful tool for 95% of dogs in 95% of situations. Things should never get to the point of beating your dog with a belt to teach him a lesson (I think it was lego who mentioned that one). That is a huge failure on the trainer's part. Set the dog up for success by teaching it the right thing in a situation where it can actually learn.
> 
> ...


This is what I'm talking about. There is fine line between a firm touch and a smack for some dogs. I would/do not touch my dog when he is reacting. He isn't dog aggressive but in that state... He could easily redirect back at me. I try to use techniques that keep handler, dog, other handler, and other dog as safe as possible. 

Cesar isn't allowed near my dog. Bae is an unrelenting, "dominant" dog who would get his arse alpha rolled in 3 hot seconds with CM. maybe after I've trained him into a calm, submissive state CM could be my dog walker.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I was not talking this woman specifically.... I said she is an idiot...
> 
> But I am saying applauding rescues for denying someone because of their training methods.....


If I were adopting out soft/abused/fearful dogs like Wally that have been worked with so that they are able to handle normal life, I'd refuse someone who "trains like Cesar" in a heartbeat.

Why would I give a soft dog to someone who'll "force him to submit" or do anything like that? Someone who'd get physical with a dog where a stern voice and consistency is more than enough? So, yeah, I would in a minute over a training method. 

So I won't necessarily be jumping for joy, but if they have abused dogs, I can definitely see it. To the humans in might be training, but to the dogs, they could see it as a continuation of the same abuses they've already suffered. It would be like if someone asked me, "how do you intend to train Wally?" and I went through the whole Cesar stuff. If they gave me Wally anyway, they wouldn't be doing a service to him. A soft dog like him needs NONE of that nonsense. I should be rejected. 

I don't see the disconnect.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> Maybe it's not for you to "take issue with"? I mean, it is not your dogs we are discussing training, it is ours... I'm not comprehending how that affects you?


This is a public internet forum. The only people reading threads like this aren't the people posting, there are lurkers looking for training advice and who will read this thread; if they come away with the idea - even if it is a misunderstanding of what you actually DO - that smacking dogs is a good method of training, then I do take issue with that. 

Or if they read something like this:




lego said:


> But-- a "hey I'm talking to you touch" is different for every dog. Would I smack a Papillon like I would a "pit bull"...? Absolutely not.
> Some dogs are "harder" then others. Some breeds/individuals will not respond to positive reinforcement like others will.* I would love to see some people attempting to lure, click, treat an APBT when they are full fledged attempting to KILL another dog. It would be highly entertaining. *
> Some dogs need different training methods then most others. Would positive reinforcement/luring and capturing been enough for my late Poodle? Yep. My late JRT bitch? Yep. My pit bull mutt... not so much. Trust me-- you'll be glad I gave my dog a thump when it's trying to rip your little chihuahua's trachea out... I can guarantee you that.


Which not only mischaracterizes an entire training method, but implies that smacking a dog in such a situation would be effective and could be very dangerous for someone to implement... then yes, I take issue with it.


Also, it's a _discussion_ forum. Things gets discussed. It's not group therapy where we all go around in a circle and say something and then it's the end. You have a right to your opinions, and others have a right to have their opinions about your opinions and call you out on them. Or ask you to clarify things. That's... discussing.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog? 

Never? 

Not even when you get bit?


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I have a 12 lb dog and I have 110lb 10 month old puppy - who needs to stop growing soon, please.


I think we need some updated Thud pictures.  And, I'm totally with you on the "Um...WHEN are you planning to stop growing? Really?" I think Sam is going to turn out smaller than we originally thought...but he is still unreasonably huge considering the Malinois in him. I really think he might be the mix from hell, as much as I love him to pieces. LOL!

But yes...need more Thud pics, please.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


I've never smacked a dog. Or been bitten. But I am still young. There is time. 

Am I hitting the dog whilst he's biting or after? It's not training in either case but I might smack him in an attempt to get him to let go of my hand. 

I've kicked other people's dogs to protect myself and my dog in certain emergency situations.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


I can honestly say that no, I have never in anger or frustration smacked a dog - or otherwise caused it physical pain or fear because I was emotionally overloaded or in pain myself. Even when I got bit. Even when I got dragged down face first into concrete or asphalt. And I am not young.

I understand that it happens and it isn't the end of the world, but calling it training is disingenuous.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> I think we need some updated Thud pictures.  And, I'm totally with you on the "Um...WHEN are you planning to stop growing? Really?" I think Sam is going to turn out smaller than we originally thought...but he is still unreasonably huge considering the Malinois in him. I really think he might be the mix from hell, as much as I love him to pieces. LOL!
> 
> But yes...need more Thud pics, please.



There is nothing I would like to give you all more, but Kylie dropped my camera in the toilet, so we're all SOL until after the first of the year, unless the cheapie camera or cellphone bothers to take something recognizable ;-)


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> There is nothing I would like to give you all more, but Kylie dropped my camera in the toilet, so we're all SOL until after the first of the year, unless the cheapie camera or cellphone bothers to take something recognizable ;-)


Aren't dogs great?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


I'd have to go with no, I have never in my life smacked a dog. Not as a method of training something, and not when I got bit.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


I have, but I don't feel the need to justify it and I don't try to call it a training method or promote its use in a dog that is over threshold. I think that's the biggest difference here.

The times I have smacked a dog...are when I've lost my temper or when I was afraid. They were times I was out of control and they didn't do much to teach my dog anything. They weren't done with forethought or with any consideration of what the consequences might be...they were done as a reaction when I simply was unable of thinking of anything else to do. I'm not proud of them and I certainly don't brag about them.

When I've been bitten, I'm usually just as much in drive as the dog and just as incapable of doing anything but reacting in the moment. Fight or flight kicks in. To me, that's a lot different than choosing to smack a dog as either a training method or a method of trying to get their attention. If I'm being bitten, we're both past the point where I'm training and we're at the point where it's all only about containment.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> There is nothing I would like to give you all more, but Kylie dropped my camera in the toilet, so we're all SOL until after the first of the year, unless the cheapie camera or cellphone bothers to take something recognizable ;-)


LMAO!!!! That is definitely a "very Kylie" thing to do. XD


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Aren't dogs great?


They're SOMETHING all right. (Helpful advice: Camera straps look like tug toys. Don't leave the dangling. Especially from the back of a toilet the kids won't remember to shut.)



packetsmom said:


> LMAO!!!! That is definitely a "very Kylie" thing to do. XD


Innit just?


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

aiw said:


> While I totally agree that is what you were talking about Inga, it really isn't what lego was saying. Ireth0 quoted one of the posts where she clearly says "if my dog was trying to rip your dog's throat out, you think he'll hear a clicker? No, I'm going to smack him". Aside from it being an obvious menace to all the rest of us dog owners on the street. I don't consider that intelligent training, even aversive-based training - which I don't think is universal abuse.
> 
> I doubt anyone here is suggesting leash pops are abuse either. I use them and I've poked Pete to get his attention focused on me, but IMO its a very blunt instrument and not a useful tool for 95% of dogs in 95% of situations. Things should never get to the point of beating your dog with a belt to teach him a lesson (I think it was lego who mentioned that one). That is a huge failure on the trainer's part. Set the dog up for success by teaching it the right thing in a situation where it can actually learn.
> 
> ...


A soft dog would never need a leash pop or touch. (just want to add that my touch is to get attention, not to hurt the dog and I have been doing it before Cesar Milan made it to the US) I would NEVER hit a dog with a belt or anything like that. My dogs are loved, treated with respect all the time BUT are expected to follow the rules of my house and of society to keep them and others safe. I have taken part in training over a hundred dogs and MOST of them need very few corrections if training is done right and kept happy and positive. That said, just like a child needs to learn right from wrong, so does a dog. I will correct a dog that is ignoring me and focusing too much on something that could get him/her into trouble. 

I have one dog that is pretty soft. When I got him, he had a broken leg and broken jaw that were just left to start healing on their own. The owner beat that dog and I cannot imagine what he did to make anyone so mad as he is such a softy. I suspect that he growled over food as he is to this day afraid of his dog dish if it makes any noise (like his collar touches it) He WANTS me to sit by him while he eats and encourage him to eat. He went days without eating or going by his dog dish when I followed the vets direction with the "tough love to make him eat on his own" thing. Now... after years, he can eat some by himself but will still try to get me to sit by him. I do this when I have time as it makes him obviously very comfortable. Otherwise his meals are grab a mouthful and go away from the scary dish. This dog, doesn't need more then a "uh,huh" when he does something wrong. A firm voice is the most correction he would require and IF I had gone the correction route with him, he would just shut down OR might get to the point of redirecting any aggression. Fear bite or something to that effect. 

A few of my other dogs however, can't hear me when they have other things on their minds and need an occasional pop or touch. This is not happening on a regular basis obviously so I don't want anyone to think that is a common occurrence. It happens when it is needed but 98% of the time it is all rainbows and sunshine for them as well. It is NEVER beating or hitting with a belt or anything else. With this breed it is not only about keeping my individual safe but keeping the reputation of the breed from having anymore people having bad feelings about the breed. I have however joked about the Rottweiler's needing me to get the 2x4 out. I shouldn't do that on a forum as people who don't know me don't get the sarcasm or know what pampered brats I have. 

As for my saying Cesar could walk my dogs, it is because I know he would have no need to do anything harsh to my dogs because they are well behaved. I think he would like my dogs. Who wouldn't, right? ha ha


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Ok. I'll explain it again so-- PLEASE READ IT. 
I do not use smacking regularly. I use it SELDOMLY. For reasons that I do not HAVE to explain. 
I have made training mistakes. Yes. 
Am I a perfect dog owner. No. 
Have I used smacking at inappropriate times? Yes. 
Did I rescue my dog from being re-homed YET AGAIN (after the fourth time)? Yes. 
Do I do everything for her? Yes. 
Do I spend a ludicrous amount of money on her every month? Yes. 
Is she mentally/physically stimulated? Yes. 
Does she receive regular health care? Yes. 
Judge me all you want people. That's what you seem to enjoy doing. 
This is certainly a public discussion board and I was expecting a bit of criticism, not a full on flame war. 
I have been privately messaged that I am an ugly, lowlife, friendless Canadian with a dog that looks like it has Down's syndrome... awesome. This has become abusive and I no longer wish to be a part of this forum. 
Thank you to the very *few* members who extended themselves in attempts to be welcoming and friendly. I appreciate that. 
I once heard a dog hater say that the reason he hated dog owners was because dog owners hate people... I didn't know what he meant by that until now. 
You all have a nice day.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


Well first of all, I am not judging lego for how she actually touches his/her dog, vs. what s/he initially made it SOUND like how s/he smacked her dog. As I said, I thump my dogs in play and I touch them to get their attention. I have used physical force as an emergency management tool, or given an occasional collar correction... but no, I've never "smacked" (as in punching or hitting a dog) as a training method or as a reaction to their behavior/in anger. (I might be judging a little bit for all the bravado and name-calling, though.)

I did get a pretty significant redirected bite from Pip once breaking up a scuffle incorrectly. Why would I smack him for that? He didn't even know that it was me he had bitten. It would have served no purpose whatsoever. Other than that I haven't been bitten by my dogs that I can remember.


ETA: Personally I would not let Cesar Milan near my dogs with a ten foot pole. I think he likes dogs fine and I don't think he's deliberately cruel, but he sucks at reading dogs and I don't think he responds appropriately to their behavior.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


Sure, most of us have already said we've gotten physical at one time or another.

But I would never suggest doing it to a dog in prey drive _or_ suggest it should be the basis for a whole training philosophy. There are just better ways. Ironically enough, _especially_ for a pit aversive-based training is stupid. Despite lego's assumptions about the rest of us and about her knowledge of pits in general, they're not monstrous bullies best dealt with by a 'smack'. They're extremely handler-oriented dogs, their personalities are soft with their owners but their physical pain tolerance is high. The aversives you'd have to apply to get a proper reaction would be massive and likely do serious damage to their bond with you. Why do that, when positive methods work so well with a handler-focused dog and when as a breed they're so easy to motivate?

EDIT: Well.... I guess most of us haven't smacked their dogs once or twice! I count myself with packetsmom, I've swatted Pete twice that I can think of, I was angry and frustrated and reacted on impulse... a bad one. It was not a training moment, it was a moment of me being the deeply imperfect person I am and reacting out of anger. I'm not proud of it, but I don't worry about it either. My methods with Pete are 99.99% positive and as best I can tell there was no fallout between us over the incidents.

He's my first dog and I make _at least_ as many mistakes in training as he does, so we both need to be tolerant of each other. Pete is sometimes better at this than I am. To his credit, he's never reacted badly with me when I was upset - so I figure I owe him the same courtesy.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


I have yes... have already stated that. It was how I was taught to 'train' dogs by my family. They do something bad and you spank them. Pee in the floor? Rub their nose in it and swat 'em.

I've also almost always (until a couple years ago) had herders. I remember once Trey was resource guarding so I smacked him and he whipped around and nailed me. He's been dead over 4 years and this happened when he was younger and I still have a scar. I also remember spanking Nikki once and she bit me pretty good too. Herders aren't so tolerant and smacking them generally ends up with a dog 'smacking' back.

Since then... I've learned a lot about training. Smacking a dog isn't a training method, it's generally a reflex or done out of anger. It makes the human feel better (unless they get bit) but it's not solving any training errors. Even back when I was a kid I trained my dogs to do some neat tricks- with positive reinforcement. Didn't know what it was at the time but it always stuck with me that it worked. Went to my first trainer and watched him fail to choke chain a papillon into basic obedience (really?). A few cookies and 5 minutes later and he was doing what he was supposed to. Haven't really looked back. No need to. 

Since learning more about how dogs work and think and how to motivate them, my goal is to be deliberate and thoughtful of how I interact with them. I am not perfect, I doubt anyone is. I've yelled out of anger and there have been times where I just need to walk away a minute.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> Ok. I'll explain it again so-- PLEASE READ IT.
> I do not use smacking regularly. I use it SELDOMLY. For reasons that I do not HAVE to explain.
> I have made training mistakes. Yes.
> Am I a perfect dog owner. No.
> ...


Just to be clear and so everyone else knows...I did NOT PM this user.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I am interested to see what happens in these discussions when I get a 'real dog' breed for Nextdog. lol Probably still won't be big enough.


Someone needs to breed a 500 lb, 8 ft tall dog that could eat the side of your house for discussions like that  Then you'd have the undisputed champion!

Then again that little dog from this Tom and Jerry episode would be a handful.









Laurelin said:


> I don't think cookies and rainbows solve everything.



Does inducing "frustration" via shaping count against using cookies and rainbows (well more like beef treats and Dora - I'm not a rainbow person)? 

I guess it's safe to say I should never get a big dog? My training style is about at the other end of the spectrum in physicality - basically zero.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

I would love to see people's honesty on here- the flogging that one might get if they were honest about their training mistakes (as if they are in some way detrimental to this world/society). Easy to judge when you haven't exactly been forthcoming about your mistakes. At least I was honest.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Just to be clear and so everyone else knows...I did NOT PM this user.


Since we had several run ins as well, I did not PM anything in regard to what was claimed above.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Just to be clear and so everyone else knows...I did NOT PM this user.


 No packet did not.



ireth0 said:


> Since we had several run ins as well, I did not PM anything in regard to what was claimed above.


 Nor did ireth.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> I would love to see people's honesty on here- the flogging that one might get if they were honest about their training mistakes (as if they are in some way detrimental to this world/society). Easy to judge when you haven't exactly been forthcoming about your mistakes. At least I was honest.


Several people have admitted to training mistakes just in this thread. There are several who use correctional based training methods who are highly respected.

Those who have admitted their mistakes have done just that; admitted their mistakes.

Not glorified them as training and challenged/name called anyone who dared have a differing opinion.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I have, but I don't feel the need to justify it and I don't try to call it a training method or promote its use in a dog that is over threshold. I think that's the biggest difference here.
> 
> The times I have smacked a dog...are when I've lost my temper or when I was afraid. They were times I was out of control and they didn't do much to teach my dog anything. They weren't done with forethought or with any consideration of what the consequences might be...they were done as a reaction when I simply was unable of thinking of anything else to do. I'm not proud of them and I certainly don't brag about them.
> 
> When I've been bitten, I'm usually just as much in drive as the dog and just as incapable of doing anything but reacting in the moment. Fight or flight kicks in. To me, that's a lot different than choosing to smack a dog as either a training method or a method of trying to get their attention. If I'm being bitten, we're both past the point where I'm training and we're at the point where it's all only about containment.


I have not asked if you smacked a dog for training, I asked if anyone has ever smacked a dog that also includes a reflex smack when you get bit and I'm not talking training bites or simple nips or encounter lose dogs running after you while you walk your dogs. 

Calling two smacks within a couple of years abusive is ludicrous! 

And yes, I smacked my dogs before as well. If you have a female trying to kill another female no clicker will help.

Just a couple days ago, I had to reach into two male huskies that just started a fight and were not even mine, reached right into the fur, grabbed him by the neck and back and basically picked him up from the ground. The other Husky wanted to go after him again, so he got a smack. 

I've smacked dogs, I kicked dogs, I now carry mace with me and if I see the need I will get a telescope stick as well. 

Ever walked four Shepherds and got attacked by a Rottweiler and Shepherd Mix? 

Just a couple weeks back we got attacked. I've had some serious scratches, one of my females had a huge hole in her leg, my other female who was on Prednisone had deep puncture marks. If my husband had not been there, I don't know what would have happened and it's the first time I have lost my cool. 6 dogs fighting was more than most people can handle and I have no idea how we got away with rather "minor" injuries.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I have yes... have already stated that. It was how I was taught to 'train' dogs by my family. They do something bad and you spank them. Pee in the floor? Rub their nose in it and swat 'em.
> 
> I've also almost always (until a couple years ago) had herders. I remember once Trey was resource guarding so I smacked him and he whipped around and nailed me. He's been dead over 4 years and this happened when he was younger and I still have a scar. I also remember spanking Nikki once and she bit me pretty good too. Herders aren't so tolerant and smacking them generally ends up with a dog 'smacking' back.
> 
> ...


 Everything you've done us justifiable though... because you are a long standing member of this forum.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> I would love to see people's honesty on here- the flogging that one might get if they were honest about their training mistakes (as if they are in some way detrimental to this world/society). Easy to judge when you haven't exactly been forthcoming about your mistakes. At least I was honest.


Several people in a row were just forthcoming about their mistakes, lol. If you look around the forums there are plenty of threads where people freely discuss things they've done wrong. Is it so hard for you to believe that people don't hit their dogs, really, that your assumption is that they are lying about it?

And I thought you were leaving the forum AGAIN? snrk


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


I don't know the whole thing with that user, and I have just one dog, but no, I never once smacked Wally. Ever.

Wally has bitten me one time, and that was during one of his seizures. The only time he ever acted "aggressively" towards me was coming out of that seizure. Needless to say, smacking him isn't going to do a whole lot when he's not even aware of who I am or where he is and is scared. All that would do is escalate his fearful state - not a winning strategy, especially when his mind is already addled from the seizure. 

I have no reason or point to use any physical measures on him. Smacking him because he behaves out of fear would accomplish anything. Using physical corrections would only enhance his fear/defensive drive, not help him refocus on me. 

I use behavior to get through to him, conditioned strongly and frequently practiced, literally 20-50x a day.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

lego said:


> Everything you've done us justifiable though... because you are a long standing member of this forum.


No, none of it was justifiable and that was my entire point. I had no flipping clue what I was doing. I was also a kid listening to her parents, who had no clue what they were doing. Live and learn and move on.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> I would love to see people's honesty on here- the flogging that one might get if they were honest about their training mistakes (as if they are in some way detrimental to this world/society). Easy to judge when you haven't exactly been forthcoming about your mistakes. At least I was honest.


I think I'm pretty forthcoming about my training mistakes. I'm far from perfect. However, I'm always looking to improve and I don't claim that my mistakes were the right thing to do at the time. I alpha rolled my Carolina Dog, who was an anxious rescue. At the time, I thought it was the right thing to do, but now that I know better, I know it was the last thing she needed. I used basically koehler (sp) methods with our GSD's when I was growing up, because that is what I was taught by my parents. I used choke chains and even held dogs up by them at times. These were dogs I loved and I thought I was doing the right thing. Now that I know better, I know it simply wasn't necessary. I've also lost my cool when bitten and even when one of my dogs simply had led me on a merry chase through the neighborhood.

I've learned a lot from my mistakes, but I wish I could go back and have those dogs again NOW, when I do know more about training and would have been able to be a better owner for them. I do not try to justify my mistakes or pretend that they were the right thing to do. They weren't and that's why they were mistakes.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

MaDeuce said:


> I have not asked if you smacked a dog for training, I asked if anyone has ever smacked a dog that also includes a reflex smack when you get bit...


Which I answered... no. Why would I? It doesn't accomplish anything whatsoever except maybe let the person let off some steam. 




> And yes, I smacked my dogs before as well. If you have a female trying to kill another female no clicker will help.


Why do people keep saying this as if anyone here has suggested it would? No one in their right mind would recommend using a clicker in the middle of a fight, nor has anyone here. In fact, several posters have explicitly stated that in an emergency, you do what you have to. It's not a teaching moment, it's a management moment.



> Just a couple days ago, I had to reach into two male huskies that just started a fight and were not even mine, reached right into the fur, grabbed him by the neck and back and basically picked him up from the ground. The other Husky wanted to go after him again, so he got a smack.


What do you think that taught him?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

packetsmom said:


> I've learned a lot from my mistakes, but I wish I could go back and have those dogs again NOW, when I do know more about training and would have been able to be a better owner for them. I do not try to justify my mistakes or pretend that they were the right thing to do. They weren't and that's why they were mistakes.


Yes this this this. I think that is why I miss Trey so darned much. I would be so much better suited to handle him now than I was.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> I have not asked if you smacked a dog for training, I asked if anyone has ever smacked a dog that also includes a reflex smack when you get bit and I'm not talking training bites or simple nips or encounter lose dogs running after you while you walk your dogs.
> 
> Calling two smacks within a couple of years abusive is ludicrous!
> 
> ...


But...this kind of thing is not what lego was talking about. In her original posts, she was defending "smacking" her dog when it was showing DA against another dog, to get its attention or to try to distract it. It turned out later that she may have meant something far less aggressive than what it originally sounded like, but her original post sounded like she was promoting smacking your dog as a way to get its attention and there was no mention of how many times she did this until later on. What followed was a lot of ugliness and a lot of accusations against several different people.

I don't think even the members of this forum would say that you should "use a clicker" to try to break up a dog fight. Most people who run into situations like this have something like a break stick, but when the fight is happening, you do what you need to do to break it up. What we're saying is that, at that point, you're no longer training, you're just trying to minimize the damage. Smacking a dog at that point is quite likely going to lead to a redirected bite, but you do what you have to do and you do the best you can in the heat of the moment. However, that's not what lego's original post was about.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lego said:


> I would love to see people's honesty on here- the flogging that one might get if they were honest about their training mistakes (as if they are in some way detrimental to this world/society). Easy to judge when you haven't exactly been forthcoming about your mistakes. At least I was honest.


I've made mistakes.

One of them was buying into the whole dominance/respect thing. I remember asking on here if Wally was disrespecting me because he stretched on me. Really, it's just how he greets me in the morning and he happens to stretch because, hey, why not lol. 

I remember not recognizing he was fearful. I tried the NILIF method on him, but that was too intimidating (that's how soft he was). I tried the usual ways of +R training, but even then when he didn't understand, he'd get scared and I'd get frustrated. 

So that's why I hooked on to shaping and threw out questioning "if he respects me" or whatever. Also by then I understood he was fearful and scared of this new training approach, not refusing "willfully" (he's in fear mode/defensive drive and that's governing his behavior). My patience grew and he started getting into it. Combined with working on his fear issues with counter-conditioning (instead of thinking he just wasn't obeying) we're where we are now, 5 years later.

But people have been honest before, some folks have thousands of posts. Just because they haven't said it in THIS thread doesn't mean it's not on this board. Search by user name of you're truly interested on someone's post history.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

Do any of you have any actual QUESTIONS for me? Instead of building a case against me using assumptions and emotion? I'm an honest person, I'll answer.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> But...this kind of thing is not what lego was talking about. In her original posts, she was defending "smacking" her dog when it was showing DA against another dog, to get its attention or to try to distract it. It turned out later that she may have meant something far less aggressive than what it originally sounded like, but her original post sounded like she was promoting smacking your dog as a way to get its attention and there was no mention of how many times she did this until later on. What followed was a lot of ugliness and a lot of accusations against several different people.
> 
> *I don't think even the members of this forum would say that you should "use a clicker" to try to break up a dog fight.* Most people who run into situations like this have something like a break stick, but when the fight is happening, you do what you need to do to break it up. What we're saying is that, at that point, you're no longer training, you're just trying to minimize the damage. Smacking a dog at that point is quite likely going to lead to a redirected bite, but you do what you have to do and you do the best you can in the heat of the moment. However, that's not what lego's original post was about.


I don't think anyone would advocate for that, that's just silly. I too am not sure why it keeps being brought up.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Why do people keep saying this as if anyone here has suggested it would? No one in their right mind would recommend using a clicker in the middle of a fight, nor has anyone here. In fact, several posters have explicitly stated that in an emergency, you do what you have to. It's not a teaching moment, it's a management moment.


And why use it as an indirect snide remark to those who like and often use clickers?

Clickers are markers. They provide a consistent stimulus that you can pair with a reward to tell the dog "what you did is about to get you something good", and the dog is more apt to remember what he just did in hopes of getting another reward. 

Why the he..ck are people mentioning reward markers in dog fights? 

I just...don't get it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

KBLover said:


> And why use it as an indirect snide remark to those who like and often use clickers?
> 
> Clickers are markers. They provide a consistent stimulus that you can pair with a reward to tell the dog "what you did is about to get you something good", and the dog is more apt to remember what he just did in hopes of getting another reward.
> 
> ...


One of these things just doesn't belong~


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Which I answered... no. Why would I? It doesn't accomplish anything whatsoever except maybe let the person let off some steam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I wonder how many potentially AWESOME, CONTRIBUTING, INTELLIGENT forum members you all have chased off? A select few members on here are self-righteous, judgemental, emotional, sarcastic, and passive aggressive. You are one of them sassafras. 
Get off of your pedestal. You may be a vet but you seem to have ZERO bedside manner.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Which I answered... no. Why would I? It doesn't accomplish anything whatsoever except maybe let the person let off some steam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See, and those type of comments don't help. The dog needed to stay away and I don't care how. If I need to give a dog a smack so he stays away from me and another dog, I will do so, or would you rather have me pull out some cookies instead? 

I don't care WHAT it teaches the dog at that second, all I care about that there won't be another fight! 

It's ridiculous to read comments like that. You just broke up a dog fight, stand there with one dog and another dog keeps coming at you. You think I care what I teach that dog? No, I will pull out mace, a stick or kick and smack that dog away from me! It's not my dog, so I don't care about teaching the dog something. That's the owners responsibility.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> I wonder how many potentially AWESOME, CONTRIBUTING, INTELLIGENT forum members you all have chased off? A select few members on here are self-righteous, judgemental, emotional, sarcastic, and passive aggressive. You are one of them sassafras.
> Get off of your pedestal. You may be a vet but you seem to have ZERO bedside manor whatsoever.


okay here's a question; what about that post do you find "self-righteous, judgemental, emotional, sarcastic, and passive aggressive"?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

madeuce said:


> see, and those type of comments don't help. The dog needed to stay away and i don't care how. If i need to give a dog a smack so he stays away from me and another dog, i will do so, or would you rather have me pull out some cookies instead?
> 
> I don't care what it teaches the dog at that second, all i care about that there won't be another fight!
> 
> It's ridiculous to read comments like that. You just broke up a dog fight, stand there with one dog and another dog keeps coming at you. You think i care what i teach that dog? No, i will pull out mace, a stick or kick and smack that dog away from me! It's not my dog, so i don't care about teaching the dog something. That's the owners responsibility.



No one has once argued with this. None of us has said that we wouldn't do the same thing in the same circumstance; most have said they bloody well would. 

We have argued as hitting as a training method. Because it isn't one. 

That's all.

You're arguing with no one. You're just getting worked up refuting a point that *NO ONE* has made.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

This thread SCREAMS pack mentality.



ireth0 said:


> okay here's a question; what about that post do you find "self-righteous, judgemental, emotional, sarcastic, and passive aggressive"?


 Nothing. I see frustration directed towards a group of supposed adults.
Hey everyone- if you are not a long standing member with at least 1000 posts; your opinions are null, you will be analyzed with a fine tooth comb, you are awful if you have an opposing opinion, if you come off as "abrasive" you will AUTOMATICALLY be shunned by the clique. << THAT'S passive aggressive. lol


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> Do any of you have any actual QUESTIONS for me? Instead of building a case against me using assumptions? I'm an honest person, I'll answer.


When we have asked, your responses have been pretty hostile.

No, I don't think you are a dog abuser. I think you probably have made the same training mistakes many of us have and that you have the same good intentions all of us have. I do, however, think you have an issue whenever anyone disagrees with you, where you see this as a personal attack and start insulting other people. We're a pretty diverse group on here and we have a wide variety of opinions on training. We have lively threads on here with lots of debate, with people questioning each other's methods and other people clarifying theirs. As a group, we're very interested in learning more and we do often debate and discuss ideas. We also tend to try to be very specific about what we're talking about because it's very easy for someone to misunderstand.

In addition, I think most of us try very hard to try to come down pretty hard when we do see methods that are harsh beyond philosphical issues. We've had posters on here before that thought it was acceptable to "spank" a puppy for housetraining mistakes or alpha roll an anxious dog in the middle of a dog park. When someone says they "smack" their dog, most of us likely picture something very different from what you meant, but we only have your words to go on.

If you cannot handle people disagreeing with you, then this might not be the right forum for you. We all disagree with each other on a pretty regular basis and manage to keep it respectful and even friendly.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

lego said:


> This thread SCREAMS pack mentality.
> 
> 
> Nothing. I see frustration directed towards a group of supposed adults.
> Hey everyone- if you are not a long standing member with at least 1000 posts; your opinions are null, you will be analyzed with a fine tooth comb, you are awful if you have an opposing opinion, if you come off as "abrasive" you will AUTOMATICALLY be shunned by the clique. << THAT'S passive aggressive. lol


Wow. Now you're assuming a heck of a lot.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> I wonder how many potentially AWESOME, CONTRIBUTING, INTELLIGENT forum members you all have chased off? A select few members on here are self-righteous, judgemental, emotional, sarcastic, and passive aggressive. You are one of them sassafras.
> Get off of your pedestal. You may be a vet but you seem to have ZERO bedside manner.


How do you know what my bedside manner is, and what does me being a vet have to do with anything? 

I do know for a fact that I haven't called anyone an estrogen-soaked sheep, so I have that in my favor. But I guess the problem is _everyone else_, not you. :/ Maybe you'd have gotten a better reception here if you didn't keep lashing out at people with irrelevant insults.




MaDeuce said:


> See, and those type of comments don't help.


It wasn't a comment, it was a question. My understanding of the situation was that the dogs had been separated and then you smacked the dog in the aftermath, which with your further explanation I clearly misread. For which I apologize. And yes, in an emergency... sometimes you need emergency measures. NO ONE has disagreed with that.



> The dog needed to stay away and I don't care how. If I need to give a dog a smack so he stays away from me and another dog, I will do so, or* would you rather have me pull out some cookies instead? *


And this is a totally helpful comment, lol. Which has been addressed and disputed several times in this thread.


I keep wanting to introduce pots to kettles in this thread.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> See, and those type of comments don't help. The dog needed to stay away and I don't care how. If I need to give a dog a smack so he stays away from me and another dog, I will do so, or would you rather have me pull out some cookies instead?
> 
> I don't care WHAT it teaches the dog at that second, all I care about that there won't be another fight!
> 
> It's ridiculous to read comments like that. You just broke up a dog fight, stand there with one dog and another dog keeps coming at you. You think I care what I teach that dog? No, I will pull out mace, a stick or kick and smack that dog away from me! It's not my dog, so I don't care about teaching the dog something. That's the owners responsibility.


I think this is a language barrier issue, MaDeuce. What sassafras meant and what you are saying actually agree here. Both of you are saying that what you do in breaking up a dog fight is NOT ABOUT TRAINING. It's about trying to keep dogs from hurting or killing each other. You aren't trying to teach the dogs anything in that moment, you're just trying to break it up and you do whatever you have to do to do it and you have to think and act very quickly, so you don't have much time to think it through.

That's completely different than if you used the same mace, stick, or kick to try to teach the dog something in training.

You both are actually in agreement, but kind of talking in circles.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

MaDuece. You can't discuss anything with someone who believes they are perfect.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I think we all have training/frustrated dog moments that we aren't proud of. 

Recently, I was trying to get both Pepper and Bae to stay at the door. One of them broke and it was a free for all charge to the door. They both got out. I *screamed* "God dammit!" I was frustrated. I was going to be late for an appointment. I managed to collect them inside after some time but screaming didn't help me. I should have been calm. 

I havent smacked my dogs but that doesn't mean that I'm not without fault. 

P.S. I moved from a head halter to a prong for Bae's leash reactivity. It's definitely not all cookies and unicorns.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> MaDuece. You can't discuss anything with someone who believes they are perfect.



LOL. Yes, much better to make assumptions about them and lash out with angry insults.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> Several people have admitted to training mistakes just in this thread. There are several who use correctional based training methods who are highly respected.
> 
> Those who have admitted their mistakes have done just that; admitted their mistakes.
> 
> Not glorified them as training and challenged/name called anyone who dared have a differing opinion.


Yep. I've definitely made training mistakes in the past... even the recent past. I discussed giving too-hard leash corrections out of anger here recently, actually. lego, I know you're new and you haven't gotten to know any of us, but you should be careful about making assumptions based on this one thread.

Also, I didn't PM lego, either. (And if I had, I wouldn't have insulted her for being Canadian, because I am Canadian, haha.) PMing someone to insult them is cowardly and unnecessary. If you can't say something publicly without crossing the line, keep it to yourself.

And finally, NO ONE would ever suggest using a clicker during a dog fight. Sometimes I think that most people have no idea what the clicker is for. It's a marker, like saying "yes" or "good," except it's used because it's more consistent in tone and duration than actually saying "yes" or "good." Would you say "yes" or "good" during a dog fight? No? Then why do you think anyone would click?

Also, I have said, MANY times, that I would do whatever it took to break up a dog fight, especially considering that my dogs could be easily and quickly killed by a medium-to-large dog. That is completely separate from training.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> When we have asked, your responses have been pretty hostile.
> 
> No, I don't think you are a dog abuser. I think you probably have made the same training mistakes many of us have and that you have the same good intentions all of us have. I do, however, think you have an issue whenever anyone disagrees with you, where you see this as a personal attack and start insulting other people. We're a pretty diverse group on here and we have a wide variety of opinions on training. We have lively threads on here with lots of debate, with people questioning each other's methods and other people clarifying theirs. As a group, we're very interested in learning more and we do often debate and discuss ideas. We also tend to try to be very specific about what we're talking about because it's very easy for someone to misunderstand.
> 
> ...


 I wonder why I've been hostile? Seriously.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lego said:


> Hey everyone- if you are not a long standing member with at least 1000 posts; your opinions are null, you will be analyzed with a fine tooth comb, you are awful if you have an opposing opinion, if you come off as "abrasive" you will AUTOMATICALLY be shunned by the clique. << THAT'S passive aggressive. lol



Awful for having an opposing opinion? No, not at all. I'm pretty sure I have an opinion that probably opposes some (or a lot) here. 

Everyone is probably analyzed with a fine tooth comb lol. It has nothing to do with post count. Heck, I don't mind it - I might find out something I'm missing or gaps in my knowledge (of which there are sure to be many). Some of that analysis or having my opinion/thoughts "picked apart" taught me things about dogs I can use when observing my own dog. 

As far as being abrasive - if you do it and people react to it - is it all that surprising or "passive aggressive"? Sure, folks should try to see the point that lies within, but, well, humans are humans and that might not happen all the time. Just like you are frustrated - but what would that solve? Ideally, that wouldn't happen, but you're human with your own set of emotions.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

> It wasn't a comment, it was a question. My understanding of the situation was that the dogs had been separated and then you smacked the dog in the aftermath, which with your further explanation I clearly misread. For which I apologize. And yes, in an emergency... sometimes you need emergency measures. NO ONE has disagreed with that.


Internet misunderstandings. Don't you love them?


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> This thread SCREAMS pack mentality.
> 
> 
> Nothing. I see frustration directed towards a group of supposed adults.
> Hey everyone- if you are not a long standing member with at least 1000 posts; your opinions are null, you will be analyzed with a fine tooth comb, you are awful if you have an opposing opinion, if you come off as "abrasive" you will AUTOMATICALLY be shunned by the clique. << THAT'S passive aggressive. lol


How do you think you become a member with thousands of posts? Most of us joined at different times. All of us were new here at one time or another. I was welcomed when I joined and I just kept coming back and participating. Apparently, if there are other longstanding members here, my experience was not isolated or unique.


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## lego (Sep 13, 2013)

sassafras said:


> LOL. Yes, much better to make assumptions about them and lash out with angry insults.


 I don't know, I guess (because you are perfect) you would have conducted yourself just peachy had a bunch of people attacked you all at once. Yes. That's how it would have gone.



packetsmom said:


> How do you think you become a member with thousands of posts? Most of us joined at different times. All of us were new here at one time or another. I was welcomed when I joined and I just kept coming back and participating. Apparently, if there are other longstanding members here, my experience was not isolated or unique.


 I won't kiss ass and sugar coat shit to be friends with people that I do not know on a dog forum. That is most likely where we differ.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Why are you assuming that just because we're agreeing on this thread, we all agree all of the time? I'm pretty sure I've gotten into debates with most of the posters in this thread. The difference is that people stay civil and attack the points, not the poster.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

lego said:


> I don't know, I guess (because you are perfect) you would have conducted yourself just peachy had a bunch of people attacked you all at once. Yes. That's how it would have gone.
> 
> 
> I won't kiss ass and sugar coat shit to be friends with people that I do not know on a dog forum. That is most likely where we differ.


Where I come from, you're polite with people you don't know. You at least afford them a certain amount of respect unless and until they have proven that they aren't worthy of it...then you usually just avoid them. If you disagree with someone, you stick to the topic, not their hormone levels or whatever else you might want to bring into it. You argue your point rather than attack the person.

I disagree with my coworkers often. It would do me no good to try to argue a technical issue and then start calling them names. In fact, even if it didn't lose me my job, it definitely would lose me the argument and their opinion would be taken with much greater weight. I stick to the subject at hand and I debate that subject. That isn't "kissing ass" or "sugar coating shit" as you SO eloquently put it...it's simply effective commuication.

The moment you start throwing out insults and cussing to try to prove your point...you've lost the argument.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lego said:


> I won't kiss ass and sugar coat shit to be friends with people that I do not know on a dog forum. That is most likely where we differ.


Neither do will I, and no one I've seen has really asked you to. No one asked me to kiss anyone's ass.

Like I said, I don't know what started all of this - probably hit a hot topic button (like stepping on a land mine in a field), but, regardless, I don't remember seeing kiss ass on the forum rules  Now maybe they added it (I admit I don't check LOL)


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Where I come from, you're polite with people you don't know. You at least afford them a certain amount of respect unless and until they have proven that they aren't worthy of it...then you usually just avoid them. If you disagree with someone, you stick to the topic, not their hormone levels or whatever else you might want to bring into it. You argue your point rather than attack the person.
> 
> I disagree with my coworkers often. It would do me no good to try to argue a technical issue and then start calling them names. In fact, even if it didn't lose me my job, it definitely would lose me the argument and their opinion would be taken with much greater weight. I stick to the subject at hand and I debate that subject. That isn't "kissing ass" or "sugar coating shit" as you SO eloquently put it...it's simply effective commuication.
> 
> *The moment you start throwing out insults and cussing to try to prove your point...you've lost the argument.*


Soo much this.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

lego said:


> I don't know, I guess (because you are perfect) you would have conducted yourself just peachy had a bunch of people attacked you all at once. Yes. That's how it would have gone.


LOL, I assure you that I don't think I'm perfect, not sure where you're getting that other than that you're angry and lashing out. I hope it made you feel better for a minute; I've got a pretty thick skin so I can take it.

I've never been attacked by a pack of estrogen-soaked sheep, but typically if a thread is starting to bother me to the point where I am actually angry or frustrated I just stop reading and responding to it and the problem goes away.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I've never been attacked by a pack of estrogen-soaked sheep, but typically if a thread is starting to bother me to the point where I am actually angry or frustrated I just stop reading and responding to it and the problem goes away.


Just throw your clicker at those sheep!

Its the only way.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I actually wish I was a sheep, estrogen soaked or not. Then, I could spin my own wool into yarn and save some serious money at the yarn store. 

Besides, sheep don't have to work and are fed and, as long as they aren't eaten as lambs, get to live a pretty good, long life. I could think of a worse animal to be.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

aiw said:


> Just throw your clicker at those sheep!
> 
> Its the only way.


You can't train those sheep? 

I'm a guy and I've never had the pleasure of being mobbed by a bunch of women (for any reason, hostile or otherwise), so I'm at a loss.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

aiw said:


> Just throw your clicker at those sheep!
> 
> Its the only way.


Why didn't I think of that? BRILLIANT.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Lego, time to step away and take a deep breath. 

It's too easy to misunderstand each other on the internet. 

I will take a shower, pack up the pups and take them to the Black Pond, using the beautiful weather for a nice long swim since the Beach is completely deserted during the week. Totally random I know, but my point is, step away and enjoy your dogs rather than getting worked up in this topic.

Both sides make assumptions and it's too easy to work yourself up over something so trivial.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Like I said before- emergency situations are not 'training'. When I kicked the dog coming after Nikki,I wasn't training it. I was trying to keep my dog from being hurt. When I spanked Trey I thought I was training him to not resource guard. There's a big difference there... 

Anyways, I doubt all of us agree on almost anything. There's some good folk on here though with training- I've gotten some new/different ideas from several of them. I've also had some great debates and some have really gotten me to think and even change my mind on some issues.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

KBLover said:


> You can't train those sheep?
> 
> I'm a guy and I've never had the pleasure of being mobbed by a bunch of women (for any reason, hostile or otherwise), so I'm at a loss.


Silly, throwing the clicker at the sheep IS training!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> Silly, throwing the clicker at the sheep IS training!


Why do people use border collies when they could just use a clicker to train the sheep to come home?

I'm sooooo confused.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Also, this kind of got lost but if someone has sent harassing PMs, you should report that to a moderator for sure.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Also, this kind of got lost but if someone has sent harassing PMs, you should report that to a moderator for sure.


Yeah, whoever did that should be ashamed of themselves.

And banned.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> I actually wish I was a sheep, estrogen soaked or not. Then, I could spin my own wool into yarn and save some serious money at the yarn store.


OH SERIOUSLY. Do NOT ask how much money I have in yarn around. 

I'd keep sheep if it were legal here.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I am a member who has been here forever and obviously a blabber mouth noting my number of posts. On several occasions I have felt that others were judging me. They might not have meant it but it sometimes feels as though people are looking down their every so perfect (in their eyes) noses. In truth, I think that often a lot is lost in translation on a forum. One cannot see our expression or know our true personality behind our comments. I have posted a few times in this thread saying basically the same thing but somehow trying to explain myself because I don't want anyone to misunderstand my intent. I didn't want anyone thinking I REALLY abuse my dogs even though I said "I abuse my dogs" Also, I have read a few comments that sounded snarky and wondered if they were directed at me or was I reading something into it? 

I am not apologizing for leash pops or touches as I feel they have their place in training. I guess I don't think of the times I used those as "mistakes" but rather necessities. Same as picking the dog up by the neck during the dog fight, it was a necessity. Do I feel bad? Not really. I feel bad that the dog is so dog aggressive and that her life is limited by her lack of social skills but I do not feel bad for protecting my dog or protecting her from my dog.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

aiw said:


> Yeah, whoever did that should be ashamed of themselves.
> 
> And banned.


I believe others (not me) have gotten harassing PM's from the same person claiming she received them, so it might be a bit more complicated of a situation than it appears. I can't speak for certain though, because I haven't gotten harassing PM's from anyone.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

packetsmom said:


> I believe others (not me) have gotten harassing PM's from the same person claiming she received them, so it might be a bit more complicated of a situation than it appears. I can't speak for certain though, because I haven't gotten harassing PM's from anyone.


There was another thread yesterday and a person sending nasty visitor messages to people. I saw they posted some on Lego's profile. I reported them and they are banned now and threads deleted.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> There was another thread yesterday and a person sending nasty visitor messages to people. I saw they posted some on Lego's profile. I reported them and they are banned now and threads deleted.


See there is an advantage to being an older person who isn't overly forum savvy. I never look at my visitor messages. In fact, I once happened upon them and was shocked to see all kinds of comments about my dogs (nice ones) and questions for me which the person probably thought I was a jerk for ignoring. ha ha


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> I believe others (not me) have gotten harassing PM's from the same person claiming she received them, so it might be a bit more complicated of a situation than it appears. I can't speak for certain though, because I haven't gotten harassing PM's from anyone.


Well, in that case...

Report those PMs too and let the mods sort it out. Having neither sent nor received any, I don't know what happened - but I think there's been a bit of a failure in personal conduct here in a few instances.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RabbleFox said:


> Why do people use border collies when they could just use a clicker to train the sheep to come home?
> 
> I'm sooooo confused.


The border collie makes the sheep submit (with that borderline hypnotic stare they use). 

Plus, why lift a clicker when I can tell the dog to do it? If Wally could wash dishes and get the mail and sweep the floor and bring me my dinner - I'd make him do it in a minute LOL. Well, not the dinner, leaving him around food on his own might not end well (i.e. he'll eat my dinner).


And I feel left out - I hardly get PMs at all. Or visitor messages LOL.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

KBLover said:


> The border collie makes the sheep submit (with that borderline hypnotic stare they use).
> 
> Plus, why lift a clicker when I can tell the dog to do it? If Wally could wash dishes and get the mail and sweep the floor and bring me my dinner - I'd make him do it in a minute LOL. Well, not the dinner, leaving him around food on his own might not end well (i.e. he'll eat my dinner).
> 
> ...


Fixed. I just sent you a visitor message.  However, now that I know you're a dude (how did I not figure that out? Every other forum I'm on people assume I'M a dude!), I don't think my husband would approve of me sending you harassing PM's. I could send a very boring and mild PM, but where's the fun in that?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

KBLover said:


> The border collie makes the sheep submit (with that borderline hypnotic stare they use).
> 
> Plus, why lift a clicker when I can tell the dog to do it? If Wally could wash dishes and get the mail and sweep the floor and bring me my dinner - I'd make him do it in a minute LOL. Well, not the dinner, leaving him around food on his own might not end well (i.e. he'll eat my dinner).
> 
> ...


You're right. Making a dog do the work is much more satisfying. It also solidifies me as the alpha sheep. 

If Wally eats your dinner, you gotta alpha roll him. It's the only way to get him to cook without eating it right out if the frying pan!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

packetsmom said:


> Fixed. I just sent you a visitor message.  However, now that I know you're a dude (how did I not figure that out? Every other forum I'm on people assume I'M a dude!), I don't think my husband would approve of me sending you harassing PM's. I could send a very boring and mild PM, but where's the fun in that?



LOL  Thanks. Before it was just zim (where did she go?  ) and spammers. 

Hahaha yeah, that might not go over well.  

I think this is the first time I've been assume to be a girl. Isn't the usual rule "there are no girls on the internet"? There must be a dog forum exception. You know the dog world does seem dominated by women.




RabbleFox said:


> You're right. Making a dog do the work is much more satisfying. It also solidifies me as the alpha sheep.
> 
> If Wally eats your dinner, you gotta alpha roll him. It's the only way to get him to cook without eating it right out if the frying pan!




Oh, I don't rub his nose in the frying pan? So that's where I went wrong. *takes notes* He's 20 lbs wet, so flipping him around a few times like a flapjack won't be a problem (mmm...all these food metaphors...). Thanks for setting me straight.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Fixed. I just sent you a visitor message.  However, now that I know you're a dude (how did I not figure that out? Every other forum I'm on people assume I'M a dude!), I don't think my husband would approve of me sending you harassing PM's. I could send a very boring and mild PM, but where's the fun in that?


I think this like the _one_ forum on the internet that's filled with women.

and here I was thinking there are no girls on the internet.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

aiw said:


> I think this like the _one_ forum on the internet that's filled with women.
> 
> and here I was thinking there are no girls on the internet.


Isn't it a universal dating tip that if you want to attract women...just get a dog? 

I used to spend a lot of time on IT related forums and it was always assumed, if you knew anything at all, you must be male. I always just let them keep that assumption because it cut down on annoying guys hitting on me. One of my long time friends on one forum was shocked when I mentioned I was getting married and had to go get a dress. LOL! Then, he admitted that if he'd known I was female he probably would have tried to meet me and date me. LOL!


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Isn't it a universal dating tip that if you want to attract women...just get a dog?
> 
> I used to spend a lot of time on IT related forums and it was always assumed, if you knew anything at all, you must be male. I always just let them keep that assumption because it cut down on annoying guys hitting on me. One of my long time friends on one forum was shocked when I mentioned I was getting married and had to go get a dress. LOL! Then, he admitted that if he'd known I was female he probably would have tried to meet me and date me. LOL!


Its even worse on Reddit. I also picked an obviously female username.... unfortunately.

This place is a nice change.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

packetsmom said:


> Isn't it a universal dating tip that if you want to attract women...just get a dog?


Ironic you say that - one of my friends said I should use Wally's cuteness to get babes LOL

He said after seeing that video of Wally searching. His wife was oooooing and awwwing over Wally.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

aiw said:


> Its even worse on Reddit. I also picked an obviously female username.... unfortunately.
> 
> This place is a nice change.


Have you joined the new /r/caninebehavior? It's still small but so good. 

Well last when I left this thread it was hilarious, so I thought it was basically done. I don't have any thing remotely useful to add that wasn't already said, but I'm glad the misconceptions against positive training were again dispelled. I think emergency situations are a strange thing to bring up as well because.. well, they're emergencies. I also think it's weird to bring up hitting a dog in response to being bitten or something. Humans are only.. well, humans, and reacting out of pain isn't a foreign concept. I don't think any one who has hit a dog out of pain would defend that choice and use it in regular training. Back when Jonas bit me in the face, I didn't hit him. When he finally let go I just let him run away and then I went to the hospital. I must have a high pain threshold, but in that moment striking him wouldn't have conveyed any sort of message or stopped what had happened in a few seconds.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Sadly this thread got so heated! I think we should make a seperate Cesar Milan/ dog whisperer Forum and have people log onto it at their own risk....


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Have you joined the new /r/caninebehavior? It's still small but so good.


Yeah, it looks pretty good. Subscribed! The small subs are always the best.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Sadly this thread got so heated! I think we should make a seperate Cesar Milan/ dog whisperer Forum and have people log onto it at their own risk....


It could be like a Thunderdome style dog park!


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Okay, missed this whole thing, read a bit, and now I'm honestly curious...

No judging, I get that at that point it would be reflexes and not really controllable...

but when I got seriously bit a few weeks ago (dog redirected, story is on another thread) the LAST thing on my mind, while being bit was "hey, I should hit (hurt) the dog, and maybe that will make him stop." It was more of a "LORD PLEASE GET ALL OF MY LIMBS OUT OF THIS SITUATION."

People that have been bit... did you hit the dog? (again, not judging, just genuinely curious because that was about the LAST thing on earth I wanted to do.)


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

One dog, yes, I hit that dog after the bite. I was SO angry and I completely lost my cool. I'm not proud, but in the heat of the moment, I smacked her.  It did nothing to help the situation and I immediately burst into tears and fed her treats and begged her to forgive me. I was at the end of my rope before the bite and had a million things going on that led up to me getting bitten and then smacking back. Part of it was that I was getting awful training advice. Part of it was that I was completely misreading this dog. Part of it was that I wasn't following my gut with her. Another factor was that my personal life was a disaster and I was already frustrated and drained before I even got into the situation.

On the bright side, I think that moment, where she bit me and I hit her and then we both stared at eachother, was a turning point for me. It was like both of these things happened and were like a shock to my system where I suddenly looked at my situation and questioned what had led me to this? I think it had to get just that bad for me to finally realize that a lot of things needed changing. It was one of the events that led up to some HUGE changes in my life that have taken me so far from that kind of desperation.

So, yeah, I have sympathy for people who hit their dog when they have no clue what else to do and feel just as trapped as the poor animal that they are confronting. It doesn't mean I think they are right to do it any more than I was, but I get where that kind of desperation comes from. I have zero sympathy for people who routinely hit their dogs and try to call it a form of training or who are proud of it or try to justify it. But the person who is really struggling to do what's right and finds themselves in that dark place? I get that.

Last night, my dog bit me by accident while we were playing tug. I said ouch and stopped playing for a while, but I didn't for a second feel angry with him for it. I think if he intentionally bit me, I would probably be shocked more than angry and if I did get angry, I'd just put him in his crate while I dealt with it or calmed down. But...I'm also several years down the road, with more experience and some much better training advice in my head and I'm not trapped in that life I was in anymore.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Like I said, I am not judging at all. Just curious what others experiences were because getting my hands near the dog after he bit me was the LAST thing on earth I wanted to do. I think my adrenaline had kicked in at that point as well though.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Like I said, I am not judging at all. Just curious what others experiences were because getting my hands near the dog after he bit me was the LAST thing on earth I wanted to do. I think my adrenaline had kicked in at that point as well though.


It has been said that when it comes to fight or flight, I tend toward fight. If I'm startled, my first reaction before the neurons get engaged is to go at the person. When the dog bit me, my adrenaline kicked in, but really, it was the combination of everything that had happened before that, most of which didn't even involve her. I'm very glad I got out of that situation.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Rescued said:


> People that have been bit... did you hit the dog? (again, not judging, just genuinely curious because that was about the LAST thing on earth I wanted to do.)


No - I was bitten during a seizure. Didn't hit him before or after. Was more concerned about what was happening/had happened to him, though he put a good hole in my finger (I know now what kibble feels like when it gets chomped by a dog).


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

KBLover said:


> No - I was bitten during a seizure. Didn't hit him before or after. Was more concerned about what was happening/had happened to him, though he put a good hole in my finger (I know now what kibble feels like when it gets chomped by a dog).


Okay now I'm curious about what a puncture from a (10 lb?) dog looks like. How big diameter was it? I happened to have the biggest dog in the entire building next to me...


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Rescued said:


> Okay now I'm curious about what a puncture from a (10 lb?) dog looks like. How big diameter was it? I happened to have the biggest dog in the entire building next to me...


About 15 lbs and it was about a 1/4" in diameter and not quite that deep. It was bleeding pretty good. I can still find the spot he got me. It's not a scar, per se, but the skin there is a little lighter color at the center of where the wound was. Oddly enough it didn't really hurt all that much (maybe my mind was too focused on Wally). It felt like a big pin prick.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

agree it's a discussion and not judgement. Do think people have different knee jerk reactions to situations.. Never been bitten never hit an animal.. Do extensive work on handling, building calmness in them so I don't have the redirect bite situations, since I have a multiple intact group and anything can happen. on any given day.. Dove head first into a dog fight,, 7 gsd males on top of my older Sammy Cross Smokey... All I thought about was diving in covering Smokey with my own body.. I didn't care if the other dogs bit me instead.. I just cared about protecting Smokey's body.. It took me a moment clutching Smokey for me to realize the fight was over and all my guys were sitting quietly around us (no one tried to jump back in to a fight)... No one bit me.. Smokey for how bad it looked had a good pinch on his under side that was bruised and that was it (sounded and looked like they were killing him).. Once I lifted my head to look Smokey still cradled under me I just stared at my group ... Like wtf,, "they were supposed to be crazed maniacs, should of bit me mindlessly several times..... I just couldn't help but stare at them several times wondering why they just stopped the second I jumped in and now all sitting so quietly not wanting to jump back in.. I learned that they capable of not being mindless even in an intense situation. Several situations over the years where dogs simply break all the rules we are taught or read and are not mindless. best solution is not to escalate them into a panic where they do become mindless and more damage is done.. 

Dog fight,, worst would of been Ra and his brother Tabe.. 3 year olds 90 - 100lbs it was like the call of the wild.. First thought all the other dogs to safety.. my guys automatic go back to the deck stay out of it,, J was new to our group, and two new seniors that I had taken in who had done training and settling in. their first instinct was to want to rush into the fight.. but I blocked and herded them into the house and secured them inside out of my way.. So Ra and Tabe been flinging each other around for about 7 to 10 minutes straight .. I walked back over to them and just saw they were so tired and said OK ARE YALL done,, "" they were so exhausted I could of used a clicker" I think they were almost grateful at that point that I was there to stop it.. And they did and I said come on in the house so we can see what damage yall have done to each other, side by side they followed behind me into the house to stand next to each other while I checked them out.. besides exhausted and slimed.. no marks on each other.

find the dogs amazingly aware of their situations and very much in control of themselves. (their mouths).. best we can do is stay calm and not escalate the dogs when we have to interact with them in really intense situations. And not introduce fear to them for our presence in any situation.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

aiw said:


> Yeah, it looks pretty good. Subscribed! The small subs are always the best.


I talk about my dogs by name a lot, so.. catch me if you can! 



Rescued said:


> Okay now I'm curious about what a puncture from a (10 lb?) dog looks like. How big diameter was it? I happened to have the biggest dog in the entire building next to me...


I left it on the link instead of posting here (it's not SUPER gross, but some people are squeamish) but this was from about two weeks after the mighty 11 lbs Jonas bit me: http://imgur.com/KrLN977

Much thinner skin on the forehead area, but he went clear to the bone. It also felt like a grown man had punched me in the face, and I'm no wuss.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

My link too, if anyone is interested. It is bloody, so be forewarned. 90lb Akita x. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/...3AF3B97-4550-000004F9989B5D2B_zps179c4752.jpg

TWAB did yours scar? KBLover is giving me hope that maybe mine wont be two huge divots like it looks like its going to be.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The only semi-bad bite I had was from when I decided to 'spank' Trey for resource guarding. That instance was really a pivotal point of realizing, 'hey maybe the way I was raised to train dogs isn't such a smart idea.' It's also why I think deliberately spanking a dog is a BAD idea.

ETA: And yes, I have teeth mark scars on the back of my hand and that was just a 20 lb dog. It wasn't even THAT serious of a bite. It's got to be at least 10 years now... Luckily not terribly noticeable but a good enough lesson for me.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I scarred quite badly. :\ I did have a lot of difficulty with the wound due to the severity and the inability to stitch the area. Kind of looks like I'm always furrowing my brow, but I usually keep bangs so no one notices it enough to often say any thing.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

This is still going on? :bounce:


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

MaDeuce said:


> This is still going on? :bounce:


:deadhorse:

What else would we be doing on a Thursday night (and I was genuinely curious about everyones reaction to a bite!)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Rescued said:


> My link too, if anyone is interested. It is bloody, so be forewarned. 90lb Akita x. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/...3AF3B97-4550-000004F9989B5D2B_zps179c4752.jpg
> 
> TWAB did yours scar? KBLover is giving me hope that maybe mine wont be two huge divots like it looks like its going to be.



OUCH - wow, that's rough. The things we endure for dogs, eh?

I think it'll leave a mark. Depends on how your skin reacts. Might not be much, could be pretty showy. I'm helped partly by being a person of color as well (though relatively fair-skinned, considering).



Rescued said:


> :deadhorse:
> 
> What else would we be doing on a Thursday night (and I was genuinely curious about everyones reaction to a bite!)


Thursday?

Are you on the other side of the date line or am I losing days again? LOL


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

KBLover said:


> OUCH - wow, that's rough. The things we endure for dogs, eh?
> 
> I think it'll leave a mark. Depends on how your skin reacts. Might not be much, could be pretty showy. I'm helped partly by being a person of color as well (though relatively fair-skinned, considering),
> 
> ...


Welp, apparently the four exams in 48 hours have taken a toll on my brain. Good thing I realized this, because I have to work tomorrow morning!

Goodness gracious I'm getting old.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I admit to hitting a dog during a bite, not after but while the dog was on me. Got the dig off me but that dog never came near me again (not my dog but a friends) I still feel bad about it even though my brain just shut off.

I'm a fighter anyway and adrenaline makes me see red. Human,dog,bear attack? doesn't matter I strike out. Not the smartest move but again, my brain shuts off.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

CptJack said:


> There is nothing I would like to give you all more, but Kylie dropped my camera in the toilet, so we're all SOL until after the first of the year, unless the cheapie camera or cellphone bothers to take something recognizable ;-)


hmm Kylies way of saying and you ignored her, she does not like to get her picture taken? Or she was helping you to find out what was plugging up your toilet? Kylie is so smart!


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I will say the worst scars I have on my arms are not from a bite but a dog's toe nails. The dog's nails were daggers and crossed over because they were so long. The kind of nail trim that some nails are curved and the techs are fighting over who gets to do the trim. The owner warned us the dog did not like to get his nails done. The dog screamed, rolled, peed, shot anals, pooped all because he saw the clippers. This happened within a 3second time period. When it was all said and done two of the dog's nails were imbedded in my arm. I did not hit the dog nor did I give it a leash corrections. Actually I was laughing because thru that whole episode the only thing I got was the nails imbedded in my arm while others had gotten the worst of it-anal juice on them. I am doing cold laser on the two scars to help reduce them. One was raised quite a bit and now is almost flat. The other smaller one is almost gone. 

I have gotten bit. Not hard to do when you work for Animal Control and you are on the animal's property. Some of these dogs were taught to be mean and when you work in the kennel and have to move them. Some will surprise you with a snark attack. Now in the hospital setting, still a possibility due to mostly dogs being scared. The bites are usually pin pricks no biggie. The worst bites I have seen that others have gotten are not from dogs but cats. I know of two different people who were hospitalized for several days due to cat bites.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Like I said, I am not judging at all. Just curious what others experiences were because getting my hands near the dog after he bit me was the LAST thing on earth I wanted to do. I think my adrenaline had kicked in at that point as well though.


 ummm trying to remember... well last bite I got wasnt too bad- the dogs were roughhousing and playbiting each other and being way to loud I was pulling them apart and took a playbite but OUCH it hurt. No I did not smack em they were playing and honestly dont know which dog it was and I dont think they even realize it was me.
I am not proud to say I have like smacked my gal before when super frustrated(by something she did, cannot really remember, maybe going for the kitten or something) -- its like dropping a penny on her head (have not really done that)-- its just so irrelevant-- she just looked at me- it didnt achieve anything and I felt bad, and stupid....


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Rescued said:


> Okay, missed this whole thing, read a bit, and now I'm honestly curious...
> 
> No judging, I get that at that point it would be reflexes and not really controllable...
> 
> ...


I was bit when the dog I had on leash was reacting to another dog in a kennel and my leg got in the wrong place at the wrong time. So, he wasn't actually trying to bite me, but no I didn't hit him during or afterward. My mind sort of goes into the 'zone' in crisis situations and I become really calm while my mind is focusing on what to do. (like when I was driving 80km/h and one of my car's wheels came off and started rolling in front of me down the road)

Anyway, I just continued with taking the dog I had outside and then came back and assessed the damage. It wasn't that bad since he hadn't actually been trying to bite me, fortunately. I actually had a worse bite from an 8 week old puppy last weekend that broke the skin. Friggin puppies.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

lol when my adrenalin is going, my reaction is FIGHT BACK, def. not get away! don't matter if its human or animal, hurting me equals me hitting. but I am also the sorta person who can't calm down when I'm angry unless I forcefully break something.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

For us who own 'soft dogs' we would not be contacting Ceasar for training advice anyways. He would not be doing any corrections on them either because they would know how to behave on a leash. Calm, behaved dogs do not make the ratings pop. Wild-berserk dogs is what sells the show. People love their pets and are desperate to have a livable dog that co-exist in the situation. For most of the people on the show, this was not their first stop. They have contacted other trainers, behaviorists. The owners were told to put the animal down, get rid of it and other situations the owners did not want to listen to. My question is this how many owners after a few months stop exercising, training and the dog reverts back to its old self? 

I am glad there are different training techniques to use. Not every dog is the same. Dogs are individuals and need to be trained as individuals and not grouped together. I am going to be soft on the soft dog and do more encouraging techniques than I would on a dog who has a 'want to go and not listen attitude'


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

When Pip bit me, I didn't hit him. It happened lightning fast, I stupidly reached in to grab his collar while breaking up a squabble between he and Maisy and he redirected on me. He bit my hand, let go, and dove back into the squabble clearly not even realizing it was me he had bitten. Then I stopped being dumb and wheelbarrowed him out, and it was all over and I just wanted to get some ice on my hand. Just no point by then to get hitting involved, it probably just would have re-escalated a situation that had been resolved.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

I once had a foster. A Shepherd mix. He came out of NYC and I literally had to choke him off me. He was given up for exactly those reasons. Owner couldn't handle him. Aggression, Energy through the roof, like literally bouncing off the wall energy... crate? You serious? You can't keep me in a crate. It took almost two months to get him not to scream in a crate. Very high food drive. One day, he decided he wouldn't want to go into the crate and he went after me instead. He was fierce, basically hanging on my arm and the only thing I could do was to literally choke him off me. Trying to stay calm while a dog is trying to go after you is not as easy as many think it is. 

Your thoughts are racing and you go into survival mode. It's either the dog or you and to stay calm is very very hard, even for trained people. 

Anyhow, that day he was stripped off all privileges. He went into a shut down and no longer got regular meals. If he wanted to eat, he had to eat out of my hand and work for it. I had him in a shut down for one month before he was allowed to go outside by himself, off leash. I call it "hardcore NILIF" because they literally have to work for every single kibble they get and it's not just "sit by the door, before you get outside" it's work in a literal sense. You don't work, you won't get food period. I have yet to get a dog where it doesn't work.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Rescued said:


> Like I said, I am not judging at all. Just curious what others experiences were because getting my hands near the dog after he bit me was the LAST thing on earth I wanted to do. I think my adrenaline had kicked in at that point as well though.


When I was bit (~30 years ago), I was too scared to do much of anything. Physically confronting the dog never crossed my mind and if I had, I would have lost the fight. I was 11, the dog was a young (10-12 month) GSD who was frightened by firecrackers set off near him.

I've also never hit a dog intentionally. I've smacked Katie's nose when I was too close giving a down signal, I've hit her in the head with a ball, and I've opened the refrigerator door into her side, but those were all accidental.



Rescued said:


> My link too, if anyone is interested. It is bloody, so be forewarned. 90lb Akita x. http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/...3AF3B97-4550-000004F9989B5D2B_zps179c4752.jpg
> 
> TWAB did yours scar? KBLover is giving me hope that maybe mine wont be two huge divots like it looks like its going to be.


I was bit on the forearm; had 2 punctures with "tails" and a gash. The punctures and tails faded significantly after some time; the gash is still visible, but not obvious.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

MaDeuce said:


> I once had a foster. A Shepherd mix. He came out of NYC and I literally had to choke him off me. He was given up for exactly those reasons. Owner couldn't handle him. Aggression, Energy through the roof, like literally bouncing off the wall energy... crate? You serious? You can't keep me in a crate. It took almost two months to get him not to scream in a crate. Very high food drive. One day, he decided he wouldn't want to go into the crate and he went after me instead. He was fierce, basically hanging on my arm and the only thing I could do was to literally choke him off me. Trying to stay calm while a dog is trying to go after you is not as easy as many think it is.
> 
> Your thoughts are racing and you go into survival mode. It's either the dog or you and to stay calm is very very hard, even for trained people.
> 
> Anyhow, that day he was stripped off all privileges. He went into a shut down and no longer got regular meals. If he wanted to eat, he had to eat out of my hand and work for it. I had him in a shut down for one month before he was allowed to go outside by himself, off leash. I call it "hardcore NILIF" because they literally have to work for every single kibble they get and it's not just "sit by the door, before you get outside" it's work in a literal sense. You don't work, you won't get food period. I have yet to get a dog where it doesn't work.


Been there, done that as well. In one case it was a friend of mine that was attacked by a dog that someone did some "back yard protection training" with. The dog attacked her out of the blue and hung on. I grabbed the dog and tried every release word that I could think of in English, German etc... The dog just wouldn't let go. I too had to choke the dog until it almost passed out. The owner, hadn't gotten to teaching a release yet. Like I said, backyard protection training. That is the vision I get every time I hear some punk talking about getting a dog to train for guarding or protection. Ugh!

The other time I lost it was when a dog bit through my hand. Yes, through, completely. I gave that dog a firm, fast smack also and thankfully, it backed off. That was a rescue and the dog was left out on a chain with zero socialization and thrown food from time to time but not much else. I don't feel guilty about either of those situations but I do feel bad for the dogs that they were put into those situations through lack of proper training and human error.

MaDuece we sound a bit alike. I also had a female Rottie that had been hung after her mouth was wired shut and she had been used for bait for some dog fighters. She was bruised from head to toe and could barely stand when I got her but she would guard her food bowl like there was no tomorrow (probably wouldn't have been had the cops not gotten to the guys house when they did) I did basically the same thing you did and that wonderful dog ended up being a registered therapy dog who LOVED kids and was as loyal and wonderful as the day is long. It took time but we got there so I know it works.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I have never been bitten by a dog. I was, however, bitten by a wolf around 10 years ago when I stupidly hopped over a barrier fence at a zoo and stood close enough to the inner fence that a wolf managed to get its head out and grab my arm. We basically played tug-of-war with my arm for a few seconds before I hit the wolf in the face with my other hand, but it didn't even blink. I ended up kicking it in the neck, which surprised it enough that it let go. I don't think I hurt it at all. It didn't break the skin (it was early winter and I had several layers on), but my arm swelled up and bruised multiple colors, and I still can see faint teeth marks.

But yeah, in that situation, wolf OR dog, you're not worried about training or being kind. You are worried about getting your body part out from between the animal's teeth. And I, too, usually come down on the "fight" side of fight or flight.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

When I was eight, we got a poodle puppy and I fussed with him so much that he bit my chin. It was a hard enough bite for him to hang on, but it wasn't hard enough to really break the skin and draw blood (and it was TOTALLY my fault, which is why we kept the dog). My gut reaction, as I'm told, was not to hit the dog but to repeatedly slap at my own face. I don't know why I did this, or what I thought it would accomplish, but it apparently startled the dog enough for him to let go.

Other than that, I've never had a real bite. I'm not counting accidental play bites, but even those I haven't reacted at the dog. Annabel actually bit off half of a small mole I had on the back of my hand with her puppy teeth when we were still teaching bite inhibition. I mostly just made a noise like a dying deal and flopped my hand around. She looked at me like I had lost my mind...

PS: I have less than a thousand posts, and I think you guys are awesome. Just saying


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

luv mi pets said:


> For us who own 'soft dogs' we would not be contacting Ceasar for training advice anyways. He would not be doing any corrections on them either because they would know how to behave on a leash. Calm, behaved dogs do not make the ratings pop.


"Soft" dogs are not necessarily well-behaved or calm. Certainly not well-trained if nobody has taken the time to train them. Often, they ARE the wild-berserk ones. Soft dogs (and children) can be very frustrating, making the person in authority WANT to use harsh methods. But they don't work and make things worse, making the trainer/parent even more angry and harsh, making the dog/child behave worse, and so on. . .


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Willowy said:


> "Soft" dogs are not necessarily well-behaved or calm. Certainly not well-trained if nobody has taken the time to train them. Often, they ARE the wild-berserk ones. Soft dogs (and children) can be very frustrating, making the person in authority WANT to use harsh methods. But they don't work and make things worse, making the trainer/parent even more angry and harsh, making the dog/child behave worse, and so on. . .


Um... not sure if I agree with that. A soft dog is easily broken and turns into a hot mess by using harsh methods, not behaving worse....


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Many people consider turning into a hot mess to be behaving worse. . .nervous behaviors are often taken as disobedience.

But I said makes things worse, not makes them behave worse.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Many people consider turing into a hot mess to be behaving worse. . .


I don't think we are talking about the same thing.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh, I guess I've also been bitten at work a handful of times. But those were all fear-related and pretty situational, and no one has ever hung on. I'm pretty quick to muzzle a dog if I'm worried about it.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> I don't think we are talking about the same thing.


I don't know if we're talking about the same thing or not. Just saying, as a child I was very soft and sensitive. I saw how frustrated/angry this made adults, and this made me more nervous around them. If they looked at me in an annoyed manner, I would start crying, which would make them absolutely BOILING angry, which would make me more upset, making them angrier, and so on. Oh--and it makes adults VERY angry when a child shuts down and becomes unresponsive ("she's ignoring me!!!"). Big time.

I've seen the same with dogs--the dog gets nervous and starts running around nervously. The owner/trainer/etc. calls the dog and the dog is too nervous to listen. Which makes them angry, making the dog more nervous, and so on. And also when the dog fully shuts down and becomes unresponsive.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I don't know if we're talking about the same thing or not. Just saying, as a child I was very soft and sensitive. I saw how frustrated/angry this made adults, and this made me more nervous around them. If they looked at me in an annoyed manner, I would start crying, which would make them absolutely BOILING angry, which would make me more upset, making them angrier, and so on. Oh--and it makes adults VERY angry when a child shuts down and becomes unresponsive ("she's ignoring me!!!"). Big time.
> 
> I've seen the same with dogs--the dog gets nervous and starts running around nervously. The owner/trainer/etc. calls the dog and the dog is too nervous to listen. Which makes them angry, making the dog more nervous, and so on. And also when the dog fully shuts down and becomes unresponsive.


Yeah, but I personally wouldn't call that "behaving worse". Sounds more like putting human feelings on the dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

A lot of people _would_ consider that behaving worse, though. Cesar would for sure. If you watch the show, he many times punishes a dog for withdrawing in fear or becoming unresponsive. I was just pointing out that a soft dog is not necessarily "well-behaved".


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> Yeah, but I personally wouldn't call that "behaving worse". Sounds more like putting human feelings on the dog.


I think its less projection of feelings, more relating human experience to dog experience.

I see where Willowy is coming from.

Soft dogs are almost too easily influenced. One stern word and they are crying for their mommas. Similar to a soft child. Heavy handed techniques that may have worked for a previous dog/child can actually worsen the condition of the current dog/child. Training can't occur when a dog is shut down. Soft dogs shut down far more easily than a harder dog.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

RabbleFox said:


> I think its less projection of feelings, more relating human experience to dog experience.
> 
> I see where Willowy is coming from.
> 
> Soft dogs are almost too easily influenced. One stern word and they are crying for their mommas. Similar to a soft child. Heavy handed techniques that may have worked for a previous dog/child can actually worsen the condition of the current dog/child. Training can't occur when a dog is shut down. Soft dogs shut down far more easily than a harder dog.



I do agree with that. This is why each dog must be considered as an individual when training. Not all dogs respond to the same type of training. One must tailor their training to the needs of the dog if they wish to be most successful. I have seen several "soft dogs" in homes that use only heavy handed techniques. It often ends in a bite or a dog that simply shuts down. I had one such dog after her previous owner made a mess of her. If someone even looked at her wrong she would pee all over the place. If a man used a loud voice around her, even if it wasn't directed at her, she would release her anal glands. It took a long time to make any progress with that dog. I wouldn't say soft dogs are harder, or easier to train, just different.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

How easily they shut down wasn't really my point---my point was how they're perceived by those in authority. I'm sure the adults who had to deal with me as a kid thought I was very not-well-behaved, LOL. People hate being frustrated.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I sort of agree ... Sometimes we have to do things to dogs they don't like & will have a "bad experience" about. Example: Buddy doesn't like leashes & he HATES being tied. But sometimes I have to tie him up & the first time I did that it hated it, I mean throw a wall eyed screaming fit hated it. 

But I tie him with a bungee trailer tie clipped to itself around the iron support pole of our carport. Connected to that (and him) I use a horse stall tie that is a price of thick nylon rope run through a piece PVC pipe, it's chew proof but it Also won't hurt teeth. He is getting better, he never pulled against the tie or fought it (it would have just sprung him back to his starting point if he did) he just ran circles around the pole (I tied it so he couldn't wrap himself around it) til he tired himself out & just laid down. Now he just lies down, I don't think he will ever like it, but I am conditioning him to tolerate it.

Edit: I just have to say ... Oh my god ... This thread ... Oh. My. God. I had to read from page 15 all the way to the end to get caught up lol.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

willowy I get where you are coming from. Yes, soft dogs/soft kids can be mistaken and the person in charge can become frustrated. We must not confuse soft with scared. Anything scared when it decides to fight to have its flight from the situation can be very dangerous to be around. In the horse world this can be extremely dangerous. Once the subject shuts down, any attempt to continue training will be a battle of frustration. My post was to state that those who have dogs that are easy, mild-mannered and just seem to know how to behave would not be contacting the Milan show. You do bring up a good point of how one reads misbehaving and another reads the animal as being soft, scared or whatever. I have dealt with many different personalities and that is why I try to stay open-minded about others training techniques and tips. I do not believe in mass training school. That such and such way is the only way to deal with dogs and the only way. THAT IS THE FINAL WORD! I like to hear what others have to say and try to stay open-minded about where they are coming from. 

I do own a Chihuahua right now who was relinquished to me by its owner. The dog is so friendly now that I can hand it over to anyone and the dog does just fine. It is the far cry from the lunging, screaming thing it was with the other owner. One of the vets remember the dog flying off the exam table and hanging onto her lab coat when she went into examine the dog. I will admit when I first got the dog I did wear thick leather gloves whenever I handled/petted the dog.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah I don't need CM. my dogs aren't horrible spawns of the devil that belong in an omen movie xD.

BUT often CM is called when people have tried everything & just want to help their dogs.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RabbleFox said:


> I think its less projection of feelings, more relating human experience to dog experience.
> 
> I see where Willowy is coming from.
> 
> Soft dogs are almost too easily influenced. One stern word and they are crying for their mommas. Similar to a soft child. Heavy handed techniques that may have worked for a previous dog/child can actually worsen the condition of the current dog/child. Training can't occur when a dog is shut down. Soft dogs shut down far more easily than a harder dog.


Soft dogs being too easy to influence - guess that would depend on how heavy-handed of a person you are. For me, Wally's perfect. A snap of the fingers or a "hey!" and he's back on track = less time off task and back into doing whatever we were doing. On the other hand, he's highly excitable and I LOVE him in his "wild" state (learns better, I find) so it's easy to get him there, too. 

I think it's wonderful. I'd rather that than a dog I'd basically have to hit with a 2x4 to get back on track. That's not me. 

But I agree with MaDuece. I wouldn't say it's behaving worse - either in a kid or a child. It's called changing your tactics. The learner is clearly distressed, so why yell at someone/some dog that's already freaking out. Throw the change up instead of the fastball and dial it down to help the learner dial it down. I think it's less projection of feelings and more an example of a trainer that won't use all of his pitches, so to speak, and change tactic when the results are going from bad to worse.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

MaDeuce said:


> All those judging Lego... so you have never, in your life, ever smacked a dog?
> 
> Never?
> 
> Not even when you get bit?


I was taught that hitting dogs was part of how you trained them, so growing up I did hit our dog several times. My parents told me that the way you teach a dog not to pee in the house is by sticking his nose in it and spanking him. We got our Westie when I was 11 and thinking about housebreaking him breaks my heart now. It seemed to take forever and could have been done so much faster if we had used positive methods and better management (he was often unsupervised and had accidents) instead of hitting him, when he probably didn't even understand why. 

He was hit any other time he misbehaved as well, and over the years I watched him turn from a friendly, trusting dog to one with severe fear aggression. It started with him hiding under a desk when he was in trouble. My parents would then pull him out and hit him. Eventually he started snapping at them when they reached under the desk. Well, that was misbehaving so my parents would hit him for that and eventually he would bite them for hitting him which they would hit him for and it just escalated from there. Needless to say he drew blood on me and all of my family members at least once. And it wasn't his fault. 
By the time I was in highschool my friends would refer to him as "a psychopath" because one second he would be happily laying on his side receiving a belly rub and the next he would snap at you (I think he would get nervous when certain areas were touched). This made me so sad, by then I had learned better but it was so hard to explain to non-dog people what kind of damage had been done. Once I showed my friends a home movie from when he was maybe a year old, and they couldn't believe the difference in his behavior, just walking around the house.

I'd like to say that aside from when he was scared of being hurt, Scooter was a very happy dog. So happy, all the time. And he loved us _so much_, which makes it worse for me knowing how I failed him. I'm adding this because people often cite how happy their pets are. Being happy doesn't mean that there is nothing wrong. He was afraid of the people he loved the most hurting him.

I know the thread has moved on a bit from here, but I wanted to add my piece because nobody else seemed to have negative consequences for hitting their dog.

I have never hit Mumble and I never will, nor will I ever hit another dog outside of an emergency, because I've seen what it can do to them.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I like a harder dog, a mentally tougher as well as physically, buddy is a "soft" dog emotionally ... & sometimes it has me wanting to rip my hair out.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'll be honest and say that when I started with dogs again after my break, Jack and his softness drove me absolutely up a tree (he isn't fearful, just soft and a little stubborn). I had no idea how to work with him, and my frustration was through the roof. He was also a little... I don't know, benign? in many way and it just took us a long time to get it together. 

At this point, I'd say that he's taught me a ton about myself and how to work with dogs, and more than I learned from the many more reasonable and harder dogs than I have had in the past. 

Thud is hard. But leans hard. Kylie's pretty perfectly balanced. Frost is moderately soft, but not as soft as Jack. Of those, temperament wise and just for living with, I think I'd choose leaning soft or soft, to leaning hard or hard. NOt being able to use 'no' or NRMs is a challenge for me, but it's very, very easy to communicate with them because of how sensitive they are.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah soft dogs are challenging for me because by nature I am an abrasive, "aggressive" person, who is very loud, frustrated & gets irritated fairly often (not at the animals but when I am angry, irritated or frustrated I am very vocal) & Buddy (my soft dog) has a hard time dealing with my moods, the other dogs don't care lol. 

All the others I raised from puppies ... So the next time, weather I get a rescue or breeder dog, it's going to be a puppy.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yeah soft dogs are challenging for me because by nature I am an abrasive, "aggressive" person, who is very loud, frustrated & gets irritated fairly often (not at the animals but when I am angry, irritated or frustrated I am very vocal) & Buddy (my soft dog) has a hard time dealing with my moods, the other dogs don't care lol.
> 
> All the others I raised from puppies ... So the next time, weather I get a rescue or breeder dog, it's going to be a puppy.


I'm not sure getting a dog as a puppy will avoid that, entirely. 

But my softer dogs have made me moderate myself more, and I appreciate them for it. Hasn't been an easy lesson to learn, but it's one I'm glad that I did.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yeah soft dogs are challenging for me because by nature I am an abrasive, "aggressive" person, who is very loud, frustrated & gets irritated fairly often (not at the animals but when I am angry, irritated or frustrated I am very vocal) & Buddy (my soft dog) has a hard time dealing with my moods, the other dogs don't care lol.


Maybe Wally isn't as "soft" as some other soft dogs...

I can get irritated about something and he doesn't give a crap. Maybe he just knows I'm not directing it at him. Who knows. Since I'm usually not very moody and generally easygoing/low-key it would seem like a shock of sorts to him because it's a large difference both in the overall environment and in me. So it's not as though I go through more swings and he's used to it now.

But if I just get even stern and curt with him, Wally's all trying to be perfect and I get 1000 calming signals and that "please tell me what I should have done" look. It's pretty interesting.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

KBLover said:


> Maybe Wally isn't as "soft" as some other soft dogs...
> 
> I can get irritated about something and he doesn't give a crap. Maybe he just knows I'm not directing it at him. Who knows. Since I'm usually not very moody and generally easygoing/low-key it would seem like a shock of sorts to him because it's a large difference both in the overall environment and in me. So it's not as though I go through more swings and he's used to it now.
> 
> It's pretty interesting.



Yeah, this is sort of the thing. I can sound pretty abrasive and I have kids - including an autistic one. When something is going on at home and it's loud or chaotic? Jack responds badly. If I'm upset, even if it is not at him or related to training, he shuts down and leaves. ANY indication I am ANYTHING but even keeled or happy, and he's done. Even a 'Nope!" no reward marker will shut him down, if I'm NOT upset. If he isn't right, and I'm not happy, he's not playing. In fact he's shut down and gone - mentally and physically.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, this is sort of the thing. I can sound pretty abrasive and I have kids - including an autistic one. When something is going on at home and it's loud or chaotic? Jack responds badly. If I'm upset, even if it is not at him or related to training, he shuts down and leaves. ANY indication I am ANYTHING but even keeled or happy, and he's done. Even a 'Nope!" no reward marker will shut him down, if I'm NOT upset. If he isn't right, and I'm not happy, he's not playing. In fact he's shut down and gone - mentally and physically.


Buddy is like that ... And I HATE it. I am working to make him more mentally tough by ignoring him when he leaves. Want to leave? Fine then someone else gets the attention / treat / etc & you miss out, if he comes up afterward I tell him "sorry!" & go back inside the house. Even the act of putting on his leash (which he must have any time he leaves the yard due to his fear issues) when he first came to us he didn't want to wear a leash at. All. So he would leave when the leash came out. If he did when I tried to put his leash on I would just say "sorry!" And take someone else on my runs with me. 

This worked because he realized that he wouldn't get anything unless he "faced his fears"


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Buddy is like that ... And I HATE it. I am working to make him more mentally tough by ignoring him when he leaves. Want to leave? Fine then someone else gets the attention / treat / etc & you miss out, if he comes up afterward I tell him "sorry!" & go back inside the house. Even the act of putting on his leash (which he must have any time he leaves the yard due to his fear issues) when he first came to us he didn't want to wear a leash at. All. So he would leave when the leash came out. If he did when I tried to put his leash on I would just say "sorry!" And take someone else on my runs with me.
> 
> This worked because he realized that he wouldn't get anything unless he "faced his fears"


Yeah, that wouldn't work at all with Jack because he isn't AFRAID of anything. No fear, at all. Doesn't bolt, startle, or get upset. He's just over. So there is no fear to face and mentally toughening him up wouldn't work since it's down to him being soft, not fearful. He's not being reenforced by reassurance, and he doesn't care if he gets it or not. If you are upset, he wants nothing to do with you and he did wrong and he's gone for however long it takes. There's nothing more complex there. It's 100% softness. There is no element of fear.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yeah soft dogs are challenging for me because by nature I am an abrasive, "aggressive" person, who is very loud, frustrated & gets irritated fairly often (not at the animals but when I am angry, irritated or frustrated I am very vocal) & Buddy (my soft dog) has a hard time dealing with my moods,


 Heh....I could have written this post lol. I've got the same problem with soft dogs....Dexter is one, and MAN he has been tough to work with. I do agree with those who say that soft dogs are more easily influenced, but not necessarily more fearful. I do however find that if something scares them once...it sticks, there seems to be a propensity for "superstition" with Dexter that I definitely don't see in Caeda. If Caeda tries something and it doesn't work for one reason or another (whether because of me or not), she'll try again, even if doing it got her hurt the first time. Dexter, wow, if it didn't work the first time, he doesn't tend to try it again, and if he gets hurt doing something, he is VERY unlikely to even go near the spot it happened for a long time.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Greater Swiss said:


> Heh....I could have written this post lol. I've got the same problem with soft dogs....Dexter is one, and MAN he has been tough to work with. I do agree with those who say that soft dogs are more easily influenced, but not necessarily more fearful. I do however find that if something scares them once...it sticks, there seems to be a propensity for "superstition" with Dexter that I definitely don't see in Caeda. If Caeda tries something and it doesn't work for one reason or another (whether because of me or not), she'll try again, even if doing it got her hurt the first time. Dexter, wow, if it didn't work the first time, he doesn't tend to try it again, and if he gets hurt doing something, he is VERY unlikely to even go near the spot it happened for a long time.



Yes. This I agree with. "Try again" is not in Jack's vocabulary. That makes training him very, very slow. He doesn't develop fear or avoidance? He just. Won't.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yes. This I agree with. "Try again" is not in Jack's vocabulary. That makes training him very, very slow. He doesn't develop fear or avoidance? He just. Won't.


Buddy is like that, but luckily he LOVES human contact & will do anything for it, so I use that to my advantage. He quickly learned they I he leaves & shuts down then all attention goes away. I also consider him soft because if he has a bad experience with something it takes him a really long time to go near that spot again. Also anything he isn't comfortable with he is like "screw you I am not doing it" which is why at all times when he isn't in a absolutely safe fenced area, He is on a leash ALWAYS.

Josefina is kind of like Greater Swiss's Caeda, only not as "up yours, what's in it for me" lol. She really wants to please me & tried hard to be a good dog, she is just very impulsive & it sometimes gets her in trouble lol.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Buddy is like that, but luckily he LOVES human contact & will do anything for it, so I use that to my advantage. He quickly learned they I he leaves & shuts down then all attention goes away. I also consider him soft because if he has a bad experience with something it takes him a really long time to go near that spot again. Also anything he isn't comfortable with he is like "screw you I am not doing it" which is why at all times when he isn't in a absolutely safe fenced area, He is on a leash ALWAYS.
> 
> Josefina is kind of like Greater Swiss's Caeda, only not as "up yours, what's in it for me" lol. She really wants to please me & tried hard to be a good dog, she is just very impulsive & it sometimes gets her in trouble lol.



See, this is what's weird about Jack. He likes people and really really wants attention and human contact -if it's positive. If you are unhappy with him/he thinks you are and have upset him, then he doesn't want you anywhere near him ANYWAY, so you can take your attention and shove it, because he doesn't want it. If you're not happy with him, UP YOURS, he's gone and walking away, and he will stay gone and happily ignore you for the next three days and not give a crap. Want him to do something he's uncomfortable with? Nope. He'll stand there and stare at you and just passively refuse until the cows come home - but that's rare because most of the time he's not actually uncomfortable with anything - he just won't do anything wherein it's not fun for him. (This last part is pretty RT typical. Masters of passive aggressive, those guys)

So, yeah. I have learned to just avoid shutting him down and setting him up for success and keeping it rewarding and fun. The degree to which that has improved my training with the others is ENORMOUS. It's not easy! Not near as easy with him as the rest! But it works and it's taught me a lot.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hence why buddy is on a leash, so if he does have a moment like that then he doesn't have the option of "going away" & there were times when he did throw fits at the end of the leash because he wanted to have an "up yours" moment. In the yard if I see him having one of those (it can be triggered if I tell one of the other dogs no as well) I will seek him out & follow him around until he finally stops "pouting" lol


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Hence why buddy is on a leash, so if he does have a moment like that then he doesn't have the option of "going away" & there were times when he did throw fits at the end of the leash because he wanted to have an "up yours" moment. In the yard if I see him having one of those (it can be triggered if I tell one of the other dogs no as well) I will seek him out & follow him around until he finally stops "pouting" lol


LOL. Jack on leash just stands there and continues to shut down. Throwing a fit? JACK? Never.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hence why Josefina is my favorite lol


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Greater Swiss said:


> I do agree with those who say that soft dogs are more easily influenced, but not necessarily more fearful. I do however find that if something scares them once...it sticks, there seems to be a propensity for "superstition" with Dexter that I definitely don't see in Caeda. If Caeda tries something and it doesn't work for one reason or another (whether because of me or not), she'll try again, even if doing it got her hurt the first time. Dexter, wow, if it didn't work the first time, he doesn't tend to try it again, and if he gets hurt doing something, he is VERY unlikely to even go near the spot it happened for a long time.


What does "superstitious" mean in terms of dogs? I know what it means in humans, but I don't think I've heard that before in reference to dogs.

Is it possible for a not-soft dog to have fearful tendencies? From reading descriptions of other's soft dogs, Wally is sounding less and less like them, though I would think he'd be considered a soft dog. It's odd because he still has some "very wary" behavior, but if something scares him, he can get over it and it doesn't impact his entire behavior for a while (it used to, but now it would have be something rather 'significant' - not just a kid screaming really loud, but a constant barrage of fireworks - yeah, that'll do it).


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Maybe my assumption of Buddy is not accurate. Maybe he isn't fearful, but I don't understand what makes him tick or why he shuts down sometimes. I don't know what kind of upbringing he had (though I cant imagine it was a very enriching one). But the minute I say the word "no" or even get loud when I am playing fetch with Bear & Josefina (in a positive way, because we are having fun) he goes away, I have done nothing negative to him, nothing negative has happened to him during this & he is fine watching us play until things get too boisterous, then his tail goes down, his ears go back & he is just ... gone. Its weird, by far he is the weirdest dog I have ever had.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Maybe my assumption of Buddy is not accurate. Maybe he isn't fearful, but I don't understand what makes him tick or why he shuts down sometimes. I don't know what kind of upbringing he had (though I cant imagine it was a very enriching one). But the minute I say the word "no" or even get loud when I am playing fetch with Bear & Josefina (in a positive way, because we are having fun) he goes away, I have done nothing negative to him, nothing negative has happened to him during this & he is fine watching us play until things get too boisterous, then his tail goes down, his ears go back & he is just ... gone. Its weird, by far he is the weirdest dog I have ever had.



Well, this is the other thing that is likely influencing the differences between Jack and dogs like Buddy and Wally (IMO). 

Jack? Was and is socialized, his background is known, and while it was harsher than was good for him with his temperament it is not what we think of as abusive. He was shown from 4 months old, titled in weight pull, titled in conformation, traveled around with different people to those shows, has done hunting, etc. And he's utterly and completely lacking any fear issues as a result. You can take that dog anywhere, and do anything with him you want and he will have no issues. 

_Unless you are unhappy with him, or lead him to think that you are._ That's it. Period, the end. And for me that is the definition of a soft dog - one who is highly sensitive and responsive to 'correction' and/or owner mood. He's not AFRAID - except maybe of being wrong, and it's not even fear of repercussions as I once thought, or doesn't seem to be. It's just outright not wanting to be. It's like... he's a little doggie perfectionist and if he's not doing it right and making you happy, he doesn't want to do it and gets 'sad'.

And yes, non-soft dogs can certainly be fearful. I will say that ears going back and tail going down before removing himself sounds more like fear to me than basic softness. Freaking out when being forced to stay certainly does- as does losing it at loud noises in general, and not even inside the home. Yes, Jack responds negatively to yelling and chaos, but not in a fearful way. It's... the inability to realize the yelling isn't at HIM. It has to be directed at someone, in some way, before it occurs to him that it's an issue. A gun going off two feet from him and he doesn't even twitch, you know?

They're just two completely different things, IMO, even if one is somewhat hard to pinpoint.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think that soft means fearful, or vice versa. Crystal is what I'd call a soft dog. All I have to do is speak in a stern tone and the ears and tail go down and she looks... disappointed, to anthropomorphize a bit, that she's done something "wrong." She really wants to please me and sometimes tends to get frustrated and give up if I can't properly communicate to her what I want. She's just very sensitive. She's not afraid of me in the least, though, or of any strangers or situations we encounter on walks. She's bombproof with kids.

Casper, on the other hand, is a very hard dog, at least with me. I could yell at him if I wanted, and he wouldn't even blink. Leash corrections are useless because he just does not care. He has learned that "no" or "hey" mean "stop what you're doing immediately," but he's not bothered at all by verbal corrections. However, he is nervous of strangers (and really dislikes running children), and I have to watch him so that I don't put him into a situation where he might fear-bite.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think I do best with hard dogs. If I were a dog, I'd likely be characterized as hard myself. I like knowing exactly what I've done wrong when I'm trying to learn something or working on something and I don't really care if it's pretty blunt, but I want to know right then so that I can correct it, rather than being allowed to make mistakes. I can picture myself being a dog that could stand harsh corrections as long as they were fairly timed and still keep going.

In my interactions with others, I tend to default to the same way. At work, I am pretty direct and hate it when I end up working with someone who needs everything toned down and worded just so or else their feelings will be hurt. I work mostly with men and it seems like they value that kind of directness more. At home, I'm having to adjust this. My daughter is right there with me with a harder temperment, but my husband and son need things worded in just the right way so that they don't feel like I'm attacking them if I'm asking them to do something or to do it differently.

With Sam, we're pretty evenly matched in the temperment department. We're both hard and stubborn and I find that the only time we have problems is when we both try to butt heads by facing each other head-on. Battles of wills just don't work with a dog that is approaching bigger than you are. I have to think of things more like jujitsu than boxing and instead turn it around so that we're working as a team rather than just trying to impose my will on him. He thrives on that and will do almost anything when we're working together, but if it's just me forcing my will on him? We'll both end up digging in our heels and we get nowhere. LOL

In retrospect, it is such a good thing I wasn't able to get my Bernese Mountain Dog and ended up with Sam instead.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

KBLover said:


> *What does "superstitious" mean in terms of dogs? *I know what it means in humans, but I don't think I've heard that before in reference to dogs.
> 
> Is it possible for a not-soft dog to have fearful tendencies? From reading descriptions of other's soft dogs, Wally is sounding less and less like them, though I would think he'd be considered a soft dog. It's odd because he still has some "very wary" behavior, but if something scares him, he can get over it and it doesn't impact his entire behavior for a while (it used to, but now it would have be something rather 'significant' - not just a kid screaming really loud, but a constant barrage of fireworks - yeah, that'll do it).


Basically, it means that the dog forms and acts on coincidental associations. For example, a dog may spin before sitting and being reinforced, so now he routinely spins before sitting. Or, he may have been frightened by thunder as he approached a mailbox and now avoids mailboxes. More here: Dogs are Superstitious

I agree that soft doesn't necessarily mean fearful as explained by CptJack and Crantastic.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

To be totally honest, I don't think there's any level of hard or soft where 'imposing your will' on a dog is a great idea. Hard dogs dig in. Soft dogs shut down. Medium/balanced dogs will probably do okayish with it, in that they won't dig their heels in or shut down, but frankly most dogs lean either hard or soft, and you're ultimately going to hit issues with either the dog digging its heels in and refusing, or the dog shutting down and being unable, to learn. 

It's just not a dog training method that actually works very well.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Hmmm ... maybe that's Buddy, "I don't know what you are asking & I am afraid I will fail so I just won't do it" sounds pretty accurate, Izze was a "hard" dog with everyone but me LOL, if she thought I was disappointed with her performance at any task, she would bend over backwards trying to do something to make me happy or to please me, Josefina is the same way. You're mad? she immediately comes over & sits in front of me, looking at me as if to say "is there anything I can do to make it better?" (even ifmy frustration isn't even dog related LOL)


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> To be totally honest, I don't think there's any level of hard or soft where 'imposing your will' on a dog is a great idea. Hard dogs dig in. Soft dogs shut down. Medium/balanced dogs will probably do okayish with it, in that they won't dig their heels in or shut down, but frankly most dogs lean either hard or soft, and you're ultimately going to hit issues with either the dog digging its heels in and refusing, or the dog shutting down and being unable, to learn.
> 
> It's just not a dog training method that actually works very well.


I have had dogs that were perfectly happy with a "because I said so" attitude toward training, but then those dogs were EXTREMELY biddable, so simply knowing that I wanted them to do something was more than sufficient. With Sam and a couple other dogs I've had, not so much. There has to be either a reward or consequence that he understands and is clear to him. Simply knowing that I've given a command and it's what I want him to do is not enough. We butted heads a couple of times until I understood, which is far more about my stubbornness. He had been so easy to teach commands to that I fell into treating him like he was one of those dogs that I'd had before that would do them simply to please me.

So...I would have to say that there ARE dogs that you can simply give commands to without much expectation of reward or removal of reward or any other consequence, but they aren't as common as others.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> I have had dogs that were perfectly happy with a "because I said so" attitude toward training, but then those dogs were EXTREMELY biddable, so simply knowing that I wanted them to do something was more than sufficient. With Sam and a couple other dogs I've had, not so much. There has to be either a reward or consequence that he understands and is clear to him. Simply knowing that I've given a command and it's what I want him to do is not enough. We butted heads a couple of times until I understood, which is far more about my stubbornness. He had been so easy to teach commands to that I fell into treating him like he was one of those dogs that I'd had before that would do them simply to please me.
> 
> So...I would have to say that there ARE dogs that you can simply give commands to without much expectation of reward or removal of reward or any other consequence, but they aren't as common as others.



Well, I can do that with Kylie, sure. I mean she's that biddable and that bright, and for her getting a 'yes' or marker is the ultimate, highest value, reward. When she's in a zone, even learning new things, she's too excited TO take treats, as often as she's not. I certainly don't have to give her any sort of stimulus that she considers aversive.

But there's still no imposing my will on her, because there's no *imposing*, and what she wants is what I want. It's exactly what you said, when you said 'find a way to work together'. For this dog, working together doesn't require rewards and corrections -because the work is the reward. Her will is the same as mine. I'm not asking her to do something she doesn't want to do, because she wants to do it - whatever it is - because it's fun and rewarding for her. I'm not asking her to do something that goes against her desires or will, for the sake of mine. Imposition of will would imply, to me, asking her to do something she didn't want and convincing her otherwise. That's not happening when the dog is biddable enough for their will to be to do what you want.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I like middle of the road kind of dogs. I want my dog to give a damn what I think but I also don't want my dog to melt. My two are what I'd call softer... but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Summer is one of the bravest dogs I've seen in agility. She will jump on anything, climb really high (she was scaling great dane sized crates last week), if she falls she's right back up.... But all I need is a soft spoken word to get her to do anything. She will work without any reward or a short scratch on her back. If I need to use a correction, the smallest one works. But she never shuts down ever. I can't even recall her ever doing that. Now she does worry about some weird things- like throwing tennis balls. That scares her whereas falling from a high spot totally doesn't.

Mia is simultaneously one of the meekest dogs and turn her around and she has this side of her that is not going to budge. A verbal correction gets her to quit very quickly but as soon as she thinks she can get away with it, she's right back at it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I like middle of the road kind of dogs. I want my dog to give a damn what I think but I also don't want my dog to melt. My two are what I'd call softer... but I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Summer is one of the bravest dogs I've seen in agility. She will jump on anything, climb really high (she was scaling great dane sized crates last week), if she falls she's right back up.... But all I need is a soft spoken word to get her to do anything. She will work without any reward or a short scratch on her back. If I need to use a correction, the smallest one works. But she never shuts down ever. I can't even recall her ever doing that. Now she does worry about some weird things- like throwing tennis balls. That scares her whereas falling from a high spot totally doesn't.
> 
> Mia is simultaneously one of the meekest dogs and turn her around and she has this side of her that is not going to budge. A verbal correction gets her to quit very quickly but as soon as she thinks she can get away with it, she's right back at it.


Josefina is like Mia lol, it took a lot of losing privileges & timeouts (our house has panoramic picture windows so I can see every inch of the yard from inside so every time I saw her doing something she knew was wrong she would be out in time out).

I also think her week long "adventure " in the wilderness because ever since she's gotten back she has been like ... I don't know, different. We had her checked out by the vet & everything & physically she is fine ... But she almost seems like she ... I don know ... Tries harder to be good lol.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CptJack said:


> He's not AFRAID - except maybe of being wrong, and it's not even fear of repercussions as I once thought, or doesn't seem to be. It's just outright not wanting to be. It's like... he's a little doggie perfectionist and if he's not doing it right and making you happy, he doesn't want to do it and gets 'sad'.


Wally used to be like this, and, to a point, still is, especially if it's something that's hard for him and he's not getting it. It also depends on what it is as well or I guess his general mood...or something.

I think he's just complicated.

He's sometimes wary, sometimes soft, sometimes gets "depressed", sometimes is "hard", I don't know what to call him.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

KBLover said:


> He's sometimes wary, sometimes soft, sometimes gets "depressed", sometimes is "hard", I don't know what to call him.


Special?
Moody?
Magical?
A nut?
A jerk?
^Things I end up calling my dog when he is "learning".


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CptJack said:


> But there's still no imposing my will on her, because there's no *imposing*, and what she wants is what I want. It's exactly what you said, when you said 'find a way to work together'. For this dog, working together doesn't require rewards and corrections -because the work is the reward. Her will is the same as mine. I'm not asking her to do something she doesn't want to do, because she wants to do it - whatever it is - because it's fun and rewarding for her. I'm not asking her to do something that goes against her desires or will, for the sake of mine. Imposition of will would imply, to me, asking her to do something she didn't want and convincing her otherwise. That's not happening when the dog is biddable enough for their will to be to do what you want.



Not to mention the possibilities of the impact of training/conditioning (associating the behavior with the reward so doing the behavior is like a "mini-reward" a lot like in a chain, where each step is a "mini-reward" on the way to the goal).

I think Wally's "will" is getting to do whatever that's fun or puts food in his belly. So if that's sniffing boxes, fine. Chasing the squirrel out of the garden, cool. Walking at heel or recalling from 60 feet, bring it on.

Working with him doesn't take corrections - we seem to have some sort of "understanding" or something where I can "take his input" and work with it or "give my opinion" and he'll see what's up. Like if he wants to go somewhere while we're walking, he'll look at where ever then at me. Or if he's "asking" if he can go sniff somewhere, he'll point at it and look at me for my "input". If I turn and walk somewhere else - he'll go sniff that area instead.

I'm glad he's like that because I love it. It's like having a mini-conversation and moving/working without a sound uttered between us or any "formal" cues. I love watching it play out and being "in it" as much as anything else. 

I swear he has some sort of tactics, too. Like if we're working together to "surround" a squirrel in a field. He'll position and look at me, watching how I move and then he'll move - it's pretty scary lol. Or the time my mom said he sat at a fence waiting for the dogs to see him and then he just started running around, making them bark. That's...creepy lol.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RabbleFox said:


> Special?
> Moody?
> Magical?
> A nut?
> ...


ROFL

 

I think if I throw "diva" in there that might work.


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## Violet Dragon (Aug 20, 2013)

I don't mean to butt-in since probably this thread is off-topic by now *pokes 24 pages*, and I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I couldn't believe some users(few comments on the first several pages) that think _other_ shelters should do what this shelter did. I take it the rescue in the op isn't full.

Where I live most all the shelters are so full right now. Three friendly young-adult dogs were euthanized last week because this shelter is really struggling with funds. I'm sure one of those now dead dogs wouldn't have minded living with a loving family that watches Ceaser, seriously, it's way better than no life.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I watch Cesar, not because I practice his brand of training, but because I use it to educate myself on dog body language & calming signals (by watching it with the sound off). Do I think some rescues are too picky? yes. I don't know if this one was justified in turning this woman down or not because I didn't see what she did first hand. But I will say that I have also been turned down because I gave my dogs leash corrections & "touched" them (with my hand) to get their attention.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Violet Dragon said:


> I don't mean to butt-in since probably this thread is off-topic by now *pokes 24 pages*, and I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I couldn't believe some users(few comments on the first several pages) that think _other_ shelters should do what this shelter did. I take it the rescue in the op isn't full.
> 
> Where I live most all the shelters are so full right now. Three friendly young-adult dogs were euthanized last week because this shelter is really struggling with funds. I'm sure one of those now dead dogs wouldn't have minded living with a loving family that watches Ceaser, seriously, it's way better than no life.


I feel like this is really dependant on the area. I've never seen a stray dog here (a couple loose dogs, but not strays) and our shelter is rarely full if ever. In fact, our dogs tend to move pretty quickly to the point that if you see one you're interested in, you really have to be on the ball in applying because they might be spoken for before you know it. I do not feel like that means we compromise in the quality of the homes (I know some people have been denied, even for long-term dogs).

I feel that if this particular rescue felt that they could reject this person in the interest of finding a non-alpha rolling home for this dog, then by all means.

It's very hard to make a "they should always" or "they should never" rule with placing dogs because circumstances are always so different from area to area, rescue to rescue, even dog to dog.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

cookieface said:


> Basically, it means that the dog forms and acts on coincidental associations. For example, a dog may spin before sitting and being reinforced, so now he routinely spins before sitting. Or, he may have been frightened by thunder as he approached a mailbox and now avoids mailboxes. More here: Dogs are Superstitious


I read your link and looked for more info. It sounds like behavior chains that are inadvertently created, probably from a feedback issue (i.e. the dog isn't told he made an incorrect response, just a neutral response and then the positive one), so the dog might think everything he did led to getting the reward. 

Literally all the examples I've seen are like that - people creating chains that they didn't realize they were creating and/or not giving any sort of feedback for unwanted responses (and of course, the dogs are the ones labeled, not that the training didn't give clear yes/no feedback). 

The example you gave with the thunder and the mailbox makes more sense. That's truly something unpredictable to our senses that just happened at random, especially if the dog is already wary/fearful of the mailbox. That's really something nothing can really be done about except try to make it a less frightening emotional association (counterconditioning, look-at-that, etc) and is coincidental. That I can see why it would be called superstitious. It's like thinking the mailbox is cursed because every time he goes near it, something bad happens that not connected to the mailbox. Interesting that none of examples I saw from reading other articles/blog posts made an example like that - and it's really the best type of example, imo.

But if Wally spins before sitting - that's not him, that's me not doing my job in explaining what it is that I exactly want and not naming the behaviors specifically (i.e. spin is one thing, sit is another, instead of sit = spin+sit, I shouldn't accept/reward that response and need to reteach sit) and if two things he does gets him a treat and I leave it up to him to decide if it's a reward for the last thing or everything he's done up to that point, and he makes the 'wrong' connection - that's my fault as a trainer.

JMO.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

^Kikopup alludes to this in one of her training videos on leash reactivity. 

You never reward after the dog has reacted because you could accidentally be rewarding the chain of calm, tweak, calm as opposed to just calm. 

Can't believe I forgot diva!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes but some rescues are over the top with their rules on adoptions. I know they are doing it because they care about the dogs and want to make sure they get the best home they can, but in some cases, good people and good homes are turned down because someone at the shelter or rescue doesn't agree with something about the prospective home.

I was turned down by a rescue because they told me I "didn't have enough history" with my vet. They basically told me that my dogs "didn't see the vet enough" ... WTH ??? My dogs got checkups every year and are on comfortis pills for fleas as well as HW preventive. At the time we where moving btw two cities every six months and we were there a few years. 

When they said that wasn't enough, I went back and gave them the number of the vet I used before that and also the one my parents used when my dogs stayed with them while I had a job that required a lot of travel (then I only had Izze). I even was planning to switch them to a HW preventive that was ivromectin free because I know that collies can't have ivromectin (it was a collie rescue).


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

In Germany I was denied because my husband is in the military. 

Over here I got denied by quite a few Rescues because I have three intact dogs...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have been denied because I had an intact male, they wouldn't budge, even after I told them (and proved that ) he was a show dog who was properly managed.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think there are some things you accept mean you aren't going to be able to adopt from a rescue. Is it fair? No, not really, but rescues aren't ever going to know you as well as you do. They have only these externals to judge by. I buy my flea control from the internet. I do heartworm preventing, worming, and all vaccinations except rabies via a farm supply store. I only really see the vet once a year for rabies. I have intact dogs. Those things mean I'm not going to be adopted to by most rescues (if any). 

So, you know. Strays, Craigslist, breeders, animal control, private rehoming. 

It isn't as if there aren't other ways to get a dog who needs a home, into a home.

(ETA: Jack and Frost are retired show dogs. Kylie and Thud came out of trash dumps as puppies. Bug was adopted from a family on Craigslist. Jack was 150.00. The rest were all free - including Frost, because we were known to the breeder, by then. I'd use any of those methods for getting a dog again. )


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I got so much grief trying to work with a local rescue that we finally went to Alaskaslist, which is similar to CL. We found Sam and $100 later he was all ours without any stipulations or conditions. I felt good since the mother was getting spayed and I think the pups otherwise might have gone into rescue or the shelter anyway. It felt like I was just cutting out the middleman and skipping the red tape.

I'd do it again if/when the time comes, if I'm not looking for a purebred.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

That's why I am going with a breeder next time, less red tape


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have been denied because I had an intact male, they wouldn't budge, even after I told them (and proved that ) he was a show dog who was properly managed.



I don't get the logic behind their reasoning with intact dogs since all the Rescues are Spayed and Neutered anyways. 
Makes no sense to me and it's one of the reasons why all my dogs came from Breeders and why I will stick with Breeders.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> I don't get the logic behind their reasoning with intact dogs since all the Rescues are Spayed and Neutered anyways.
> Makes no sense to me and it's one of the reasons why all my dogs came from Breeders and why I will stick with Breeders.


For us, it was just one thing after another. When we finally did get around to trying to adopt a specific dog, first they were adopted out from under us. The next one? The foster family had to approve us first and they never got back in touch with us. It seemed like there was always one more hoop we were expected to jump through.

I know there are some rescues out there that are great, but this whole experience just really put me off even attempting another dog from one. I think maybe I might try a breed-specific rescue, run by a breed's club, but that would be about it. It's a shame, too, because that rescue's dogs were housed in a kennel that was dark and dirtier than the local animal control...and many of there dogs stay in there for months.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> I got so much grief trying to work with a local rescue that we finally went to Alaskaslist, which is similar to CL. We found Sam and $100 later he was all ours without any stipulations or conditions. I felt good since the mother was getting spayed and I think the pups otherwise might have gone into rescue or the shelter anyway. It felt like I was just cutting out the middleman and skipping the red tape.
> 
> I'd do it again if/when the time comes, if I'm not looking for a purebred.


My only (personal) moral quibble is I don't like owners profiting off their irresponsibility with a "rehoming fee". Some are reasonable to weed out bunchers - $100 or less - but some are just a regular price tag disguised as a fee. Since I can understand owners want to know the dog is valued I would offer instead to donate to a local dog charity or help pay for spay of the mother directly. At least, that's what I imagine I would do if confronted with the situation.

EDIT: I hear you Packetsmom. Adopting Pete was a bit of a nightmare actually. He was the sixth dog we applied for (as I recall) and came with a contract saying we had to feed him raw and gave the rescue the right to come onto our property, inspect how he's doing and they could remove him "for any reason they see fit". Needless to say that contract isn't worth the paper it's written on.

I do think that _most of the time_ if you're looking for predictability a private rescue with foster homes is the way to go. They can be frustrating to deal with but generally they know the dogs well and are doing good work.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I did get snarkiness from the runner of the local cattle dog rescue because I lost Josefina, I posted her on their FB rescue page & he got all bent out of shape about it, sent me an angry FB PM message about since she wasn't "technically" a rescue dog (I found her THROUGH them) I couldn't post her there and that he was "very irritated" and that how he was deleting my post.

Yeah, I would block his group but if I did I wouldn't be able to share dogs that need sharing and there are a lot of people on there I LIKE.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I adopted from AC. It's both good and bad. Very few questions asked means I get pick of the litter on the 50+ dogs there. But it also means that average joe can come pick up (and return) whatever he wants too. Cage aggressive GSD, Heartworm + Huskies, way too energetic for the average guy Pointers, poorly bred "Silver" Labs, etc etc. Those kinds of dogs are there because they have problems. Those problems aren't always disclosed to the adopter and then the dog gets returned. 

Rescues do a much neater job if finding the dog that fits you. But then you don't always get what you want and they can be really nit picky. Plus some of those contracts... AIW, raw only and they can come and take him away for whatever reason? Now that's crazy talk.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

Breeders are sometimes just as bad in trying to control and micromanage their buyers with tight knit contracts. 
Just one more reason why I will continue to get my dogs from Germany. I have only one dog that came with a simply "you give me money than you get dog" kind of contract. 

I don't need all those health guarantee, there is no such thing as a guarantee. Plus, how many people would actually return their dog to get a new puppy? 

I'll stick with already health certified green dogs, tested by someone I can trust (my own father). Right now I've got 4 dogs and don't need more than that. But for the future, I will definitely stick with getting my dogs via my own family unless I come across another case like MaDeuce than I'll take that dog in a heart beat. 

But I refuse to strip naked to adopt a dog or sell my soul to a breeder who can't let go, so I can have one of their puppies. If I buy a dog, it's my dog and I shouldn't have to go back because the dog has a limited registration or because I want to sell/re-home the dog. I decide what I feed, what kind of heartworm treatment they get, if I feed garlic or use spot ons etc. etc. etc.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

MaDeuce said:


> Breeders are sometimes just as bad in trying to control and micromanage their buyers with tight knit contracts.
> Just one more reason why I will continue to get my dogs from Germany. I have only one dog that came with a simply "you give me money than you get dog" kind of contract.
> 
> I don't need all those health guarantee, there is no such thing as a guarantee. Plus, how many people would actually return their dog to get a new puppy?
> ...


^^^ This.

The only time I would say concerns about HW preventive are understandable is with dogs like collies, who can't receive ivromectin.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Yesterday I was looking at a breeder's website and their application had more stipulations than some rescues I've seen. I thought that was a little crazy. I find it .. interesting .. how rescue apps want you to list your previous pets. Umm, I'm in my 40's ... how many pages do you want to read through?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

If we're doing an 'unreasonable expectations from rescues' thing, then the one I've come across that irked me the most was having to be 30+ to adopt.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Some rescues have a "no kids, or no kids under a certain age" rule. which I agree with. I have seen a lot of dogs returned because dog and kid didn't get along ... no ... kid pestered dog, dog snarked at kid, parents over reacted. Is usually the real story.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Some rescues have a "no kids, or no kids under a certain age" rule. which I agree with. I have seen a lot of dogs returned because dog and kid didn't get along ... no ... kid pestered dog, dog snarked at kid, parents over reacted. Is usually the real story.


We have that, but it varies by dog. Dogs who are more jumpy or have a lot of energy wont go to homes with young kids, dogs who have issues with being handled wont go to homes with kids younger than teens, dogs who have guarding issues or fear issues often are required to go to adult only homes and/or dog experienced homes.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> We have that, but it varies by dog. Dogs who are more jumpy or have a lot of energy wont go to homes with young kids, dogs who have issues with being handled wont go to homes with kids younger than teens, dogs who have guarding issues or fear issues often are required to go to adult only homes and/or dog experienced homes.


Most of the generic rescues (the ones who do all breeds and mixes) here have the same rules, but some of the ACD rescues have a "no kids period" rule, others have evaluators that do home visits & make a decision based on that.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Most of the generic rescues (the ones who do all breeds and mixes) here have the same rules, but some of the ACD rescues have a "no kids period" rule, others have evaluators that do home visits & make a decision based on that.


I would rather be evaluated independently. Just because we have small children doesn't mean a high energy dog is a problem. Pepper was a nightmare as a pup being nippy and a PITA. I don't think a rescue would have let our family have him. We had a one year old! I was the oldest at age 10 with two more in between. We managed. Were dog savvy, though. I hate age restrictions. Must be 25+! That doesn't mean anything in terms of responsibility or even economic stability these days.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> ^^^ This.
> 
> The only time I would say concerns about HW preventive are understandable is with dogs like collies, who can't receive ivromectin.


Except they can have it at preventative doses. 


I have seen some really crazy over the top rescue rules. Like, feeding a specific brand of food (which makes me wonder... what if the dog doesn't DO well on this magical food?) or micromanaging other details. It used to really outrage me, but I don't really care THAT much anymore although I often find it amusing. I think some of them are probably just control freaks, but some must have had some pretty bad experiences that lead them to those types of rules. I can't imagine approving an adoption and then finding out later that the dog ended up somewhere awful. Even the ones with rules I consider more reasonable but still annoying have such limited time and ability to get to know adopters, I can understand even if it bugs me. *I* know me, but they don't know me at all. 

It's not like there aren't enough dogs in the world needing a place to call home, or a million ways to come upon them. Especially once you get involved in any dog-related activity, you find avenues for dogs needing rehoming that you didn't even realize existed because it's all done quietly and privately.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

the only thing the rescue I worked with said was that it had to be a "quality" food. But I have seen some rescues refuse people who fed raw / or raw bones (which I do LOL).


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Except they can have it at preventative doses.
> 
> 
> I have seen some really crazy over the top rescue rules. Like, feeding a specific brand of food (which makes me wonder... what if the dog doesn't DO well on this magical food?) or micromanaging other details. It used to really outrage me, but I don't really care THAT much anymore although I often find it amusing. I think some of them are probably just control freaks, but some must have had some pretty bad experiences that lead them to those types of rules. I can't imagine approving an adoption and then finding out later that the dog ended up somewhere awful. Even the ones with rules I consider more reasonable but still annoying have such limited time and ability to get to know adopters, I can understand even if it bugs me. *I* know me, but they don't know me at all.
> ...


Yeah, a lot of rehoming is done behind the Scenes. Especially in Dog Sport Avenues. Owner was in an accident, late Cancer or other Health Issues or as simple as that the dog is not a good fit. It happens just like I got MaDeuce. You get a call or text "Hey, I think this dog might be a good fit for you." or "Want a Mal?" ...

It doesn't have to be a Rescue or Shelter. Even though I was told multiple times that people like me are the reason that so many dogs die in Shelters because all my dogs come from a breeder. That I am not even American and just moved to the US didn't matter at that point. Because logic and common sense completely goes out the window with some of these people.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I have seen some really crazy over the top rescue rules. Like, feeding a specific brand of food (which makes me wonder... what if the dog doesn't DO well on this magical food?) or micromanaging other details. It used to really outrage me, but I don't really care THAT much anymore although I often find it amusing. I think some of them are probably just control freaks, but some must have had some pretty bad experiences that lead them to those types of rules. I can't imagine approving an adoption and then finding out later that the dog ended up somewhere awful. Even the ones with rules I consider more reasonable but still annoying have such limited time and ability to get to know adopters, I can understand even if it bugs me. *I* know me, but they don't know me at all.


I do sometimes wonder if these picky rescues are more concentrated in the northeast, where it seems like there is less dog overpopulation. All the rescues I've worked with/ I know of here (southern US) are just eager to get the dogs into homes so they're not dead- we still screen of course, but nothing crazy like some of these stories.

There must also be some crazy ones in the south though. I think overall it just depends where you are- if it is in an area where the shelters are less full, they probably are going to be more picky.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sassafras said:


> I have seen some really crazy over the top rescue rules. Like, feeding a specific brand of food (which makes me wonder... what if the dog doesn't DO well on this magical food?) or micromanaging other details. It used to really outrage me, but I don't really care THAT much anymore although I often find it amusing. I think some of them are probably just control freaks, but some must have had some pretty bad experiences that lead them to those types of rules. I can't imagine approving an adoption and then finding out later that the dog ended up somewhere awful. Even the ones with rules I consider more reasonable but still annoying have such limited time and ability to get to know adopters, I can understand even if it bugs me. *I* know me, but they don't know me at all.


The thing is, those rules don't help them get to know you either.

I get that a rescue doesn't know me from Adam, but saying I have to do this, this, and this doesn't help them get to know me either. 

You don't know me or how I think? Ask. The rules don't guarantee anything either. I can follow them all (or say I will) and still give the dog a marginal existence. Sure, he's inside and I have a fence, but you don't know if I'm just letting him sit in his pee or leave him in the basement alone even when I'm not at work, etc. Do people ever say "I'd like a dog and I'm going to neglect her"? Of course not, so I don't understand why they think rules are going to help. 

I mean requiring a certain food? WTF is that? How does that tell them anything about the potential adopters? I can feed that food and beat the dog before I give it. Successful rule? 

As far as that place is concerned, they probably would think Wally is neglected because I don't check off their boxes, never mind what I do with him in reality that's not on some checklist.


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## MaDeuce (Sep 5, 2013)

And how are they going to enforce it? Are they coming by once a week or month to check if you truly feed the food they want you to feed the dog?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> the only thing the rescue I worked with said was that it had to be a "quality" food. But I have seen some rescues refuse people who fed raw / or raw bones (which I do LOL).


LOL

I mean, what do the "quality" foods start with? Fresh ingredients. Does it get more fresh than fresh raw food? I guess hunting it and bringing it home that same day - which still wouldn't be allowed 

And that's simple to get around - even more ironic. One of those - yeah I'll say it to get the dog home with me, but his first meal will be a piece of chicken or fish I'm frying...raw. Or taking the bone out of a steak...and giving the dog the bone  

Oh and I wonder if the food I'm feeding Wally now would be considered "raw". It has to be refrigerated and is made with types of meats.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MaDeuce said:


> And how are they going to enforce it? Are they coming by once a week or month to check if you truly feed the food they want you to feed the dog?


Yeah, for real, and with the price of gas - they could be using that money to help the dogs they do have.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

MaDeuce said:


> Yeah, a lot of rehoming is done behind the Scenes. Especially in Dog Sport Avenues. Owner was in an accident, late Cancer or other Health Issues or as simple as that the dog is not a good fit. It happens just like I got MaDeuce. You get a call or text "Hey, I think this dog might be a good fit for you." or "Want a Mal?" ...
> 
> It doesn't have to be a Rescue or Shelter. Even though I was told multiple times that people like me are the reason that so many dogs die in Shelters because all my dogs come from a breeder. That I am not even American and just moved to the US didn't matter at that point. Because logic and common sense completely goes out the window with some of these people.


Yea, the more I get into mushing the more I realize there are dogs getting moved around all the time. Someone gets out of the sport, a dog isn't a good fit for their team, a dog retires from racing but is still suitable for a casual recreational pet/mushing home, etc. There is no shortage of dogs out there that are just as much "rescues" as the dogs that come through a shelter or rescue organization.



KBLover said:


> The thing is, those rules don't help them get to know you either.
> 
> I get that a rescue doesn't know me from Adam, but saying I have to do this, this, and this doesn't help them get to know me either.
> 
> ...


Well asking you doesn't guarantee anything, either since you can just lie. I'm not saying I agree with every specific rule, I'm saying I understand why rescues have them. There's nothing they can do to _guarantee_ that a dog is going into a good home, but what's the alternative? Just handing dogs out to anyone who shows up? So I can't fault them for having some minimum rules they are comfortable with in placing the dogs they have chosen to take responsibility for. 

(And I already agreed the food thing was over the top.)


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Even in most cities, the "dog world" seems to be like a small town. Once people get to know you and your dog(s) and how you handle them, next thing you know you DO get random emails with a dog needing a home. It's weird. When I was trying to find Sam, it seemed like there were no dogs to be had. I was turned down by the biggest local rescue and they pulled most of the dogs from animal control, so I was out of luck there. CL was mostly BYB'ers looking to profit off of bad breeding practices. Once I had him and began to be known by some of the giant breed breeders from asking questions and occasionally visiting a show or two and in Schutzhund, suddenly it seemed like every couple of months I'd get an email about a dog needing a new home.

Feast or famine?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Well asking you doesn't guarantee anything, either since you can just lie. I'm not saying I agree with every specific rule, I'm saying I understand why rescues have them. There's nothing they can do to _guarantee_ that a dog is going into a good home, but what's the alternative? Just handing dogs out to anyone who shows up? So I can't fault them for having some minimum rules they are comfortable with in placing the dogs they have chosen to take responsibility for.


The rules don't seem to have anything to do with making the dog have a good home. 

I guess it rubs me the wrong way because I don't fit into a lot of rescues "neat little boxes", yet I take care of Wally just fine and give him a decently fulfilled life and have helped him through his fear issues.

Heck, I've been rejected for not having a dog and now FOR having a dog. Not having kids (what's that got to do with a dog?). I've been rejected because I've said I'd walk the dog often. Because I won't just let the dog be a lap dog (and there's no medical/injury issues - they just thought "since Bichons are bred to be companion dogs they should just sit in my lap and be pretty"). Because I'll train the dog (I'm sorry, but I want to teach the dog things, that makes me a bad prospect?), for being a single man (what, single men are bad dog owners?)

So, yeah, I don't...really get it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MaDeuce said:


> Just one more reason why I will continue to get my dogs from Germany. I have only one dog that came with a simply "you give me money than you get dog" kind of contract.


Great, another reason for me to want to move to Germany.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

When we were looking for a dog, we were so frustrated by the rules, applications (18+ pages), and adoption process of local rescues that we gave up and found a very good breeder. 

No, the rules don't help the rescue learn more about you. That's the point, in a way. They often don't have time to conduct in-depth interviews. So, they lay out specific guidelines for adopters to follow and (I guess) hope the adopters follow them. Of course, the apparently have time to review 18+ page applications, go figure...

I wonder if some of the rules are in place so that the rescue can claim breach of contract if they learn that an adopter is being neglectful. They might not really care what you feed, but if you are only feeding every 3 days they can reclaim the dog based on failure feed X brand food. I don't believe the contracts are legally binding (I think I've read that here), but not everyone may know that. Threatening legal action may be enough to pressure the adopters to surrender the dog.

I also understand that folks who work in shelters and rescues deal with the absolute worst aspects of humanity. A friend who worked at a county shelter had endless tales about animal abuse; it must be difficult to adopt out animals knowing there are such horrible people out there.


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## asuna (Sep 26, 2013)

wait wait so we dont like ceaser?


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

asuna said:


> wait wait so we dont like ceaser?


:croc:

/too short


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

KBLover said:


> The rules don't seem to have anything to do with making the dog have a good home.
> 
> I guess it rubs me the wrong way because I don't fit into a lot of rescues "neat little boxes", yet I take care of Wally just fine and give him a decently fulfilled life and have helped him through his fear issues.
> 
> ...



Well, then, what is your solution?


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

While I can understand a rescue being cautious about who it adopts out to, I agree some have some pretty ridiculous rules that bar dogs from going into good, responsible homes. And it's sad. Owning your own home and having an enormous fenced in yard would be awesome, but isn't necessary for having a happy healthy dog so long as your willing to take the time to find ways to exercise and mentally stimulate them. Most rescues would probably slam the door in my face if I ever tried to adopt from them, because my husband and I live in an RV. Yet, both Ma'ii and Charlotte are VERY happy, healthy dogs who have probably seen more of this country up close in the past 2 years than most dogs do in a lifetime. 

Ask for references, both vet and personal. Have a contract in place and make SURE you go through it with the person and they fully understand it. Call and check in on the dog every few months. Get a landlord's approval if they are renting. But I think anything stricter than that is just stupid and prevents animals from getting the homes they deserve.


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