# When do you know if your dog is reliable off leash?



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I am really paranoid about letting Meeko off leash, but I would love to be able to walk with him without his leash in densely forested areas. It gets cumbersome carrying his long leash around!

He has good recall, but he has quite the prey drive (he will take off after a squirrel). I know some people let their dogs chase squirrels when they're off leash.

He most likely won't stay right by my side, but I think I would feel more comfortable if he stayed within my eye sight. On the long line (40ft) he stays within 20 ft or so, but I am not so sure if this will be the case if we took him off leash.

I've let him off leash in those thunderdome type off leash parks. He runs around the park and if it's time to leave I have no issue calling him to where I am... but still paranoid >_>

Sooo my question is, when did you know your dog was reliable off leash, and what do you allow him to do when he's off leash?


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## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

With my first dog I wasn't sure, like you. My friend suggested that we take our dogs for a walk together, since her dog was very reliable off leash and the dogs liked playing together. The dogs stuck together and we did the walk a few more times and then there were no worries.

If you don't have a friend with a reliable dog, it seems like you might just might have to take a leap of faith to let the dog off leash, being prepared for the worst, but hoping for the best.

Does the dog stick by you in the yard or park? How is their recall?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Honest answer you never know, it's always a chance they will take off on something or not recall "because they can off lead".... you just have to be willing to accept the consequences of taking that chance every time you do it..

Have had a lot of dogs who had a flawless back ground for reliable off lead with experience in many distractions.. The difference in them and other dogs that were not ready to be let off lead... is what their focus was : themselves or me...... the day a dog chooses me over a rabbit we on the right track... I look for calmness,, when they antsy, excited, looking for something to happen, for me they not ready when they have that unpredictable on edge /edgy feeling to them. they not focused to hear me.... they focused in on their own agenda...


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## Nicole.S. (Oct 8, 2014)

Personally I find it much easier to take my dogs off leash after run them so they do not have a ton of energy. Also I know a lot of people to not like/agree with it but for me the static shock collar when used on the lowest setting works very well. I only had to use it on my dog one time and she does not go further than 20 feet now.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

WonderBreadDots said:


> With my first dog I wasn't sure, like you. My friend suggested that we take our dogs for a walk together, since her dog was very reliable off leash and the dogs liked playing together. The dogs stuck together and we did the walk a few more times and then there were no worries.
> 
> If you don't have a friend with a reliable dog, it seems like you might just might have to take a leap of faith to let the dog off leash, being prepared for the worst, but hoping for the best.
> 
> Does the dog stick by you in the yard or park? How is their recall?


Maybe I'll try the thing with other dogs 

We do not have a yard (we live downtown) but when I take him to "dog parks" (which is not often), he usually does his own thing but checks up on me once in a while. His recall has been great, but I don't know if he'll listen if he takes off after a squirrel or something :/



PatriciafromCO said:


> Honest answer you never know, it's always a chance they will take off on something or not recall "because they can off lead".... you just have to be willing to accept the consequences of taking that chance every time you do it..
> 
> Have had a lot of dogs who had a flawless back ground for reliable off lead with experience in many distractions.. The difference in them and other dogs that were not ready to be let off lead... is what their focus was : themselves or me...... the day a dog chooses me over a rabbit we on the right track... I look for calmness,, when they antsy, excited, looking for something to happen, for me they not ready when they have that unpredictable on edge /edgy feeling to them. they not focused to hear me.... they focused in on their own agenda...


Hmm alright. Thanks for the insight! I was thinking maybe of letting him go off leash after tiring him out, so that he wouldn't be all excitable/on edge. I've kinda done this before where I walked him on leash through the mountain, and then on the way back I let his leash trail behind him. He stayed close which is good.



Nicole.S. said:


> Personally I find it much easier to take my dogs off leash after run them so they do not have a ton of energy. Also I know a lot of people to not like/agree with it but for me the static shock collar when used on the lowest setting works very well. I only had to use it on my dog one time and she does not go further than 20 feet now.


Yeahhh I'm not using a shock collar, especially on my 7 lbs dog lol! But thanks. I was thinking of tiring him out, like you suggested  I think that would definitely help. I'e done it before where I've let his leash trail behind him after walking him for about an hour, but I'm always paranoid taking the leash completely off. I feel like he would notice and maybe take off or something :/

What about maybe just reinforcing being close by by always giving him a high value treat for being near me? Maybe that would work? Starting off with the long line. Every time he makes a choice to come close, click and reward in high frequency until I can start randomizing the treats.


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## Nicole.S. (Oct 8, 2014)

I understand that, one other thing I did was get a 50 foot 1/4 inch rope from the hardware store and let her drag that around. She didnt notice that she had it on her but it gives you a lot of rope if they start to run


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

taquitos that is a perfect start.. trail the leash behind them in a safe area you had just walked through..

I start them in a safe area that i usually walk on lead many times, that I know the possibilities of that area and it's not a new exciting area for the pup "there's a routine to it" at some point and time I let them loose not too far from my property gate, it's a short distance to accomplish so I can observe how they handle it, we so close to home that my on leash repetitive command "to the house" will kick in naturally to them... just like walking in any other area and you say "going to the truck" as your getting closer it.. to instill a point to go to... naming your vehicle is a great command as it can be used anywhere you take them.. As time goes on I give them more distance on the way back to make it back to the house off lead.... 

Sounds like you have a great foundation already to work with


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

^^ Agreed, on a safe trail you've walked on leash they are already a bit "programmed" to stick with you somewhat. You can't ever know for sure but I usually have a pretty good idea and then just have to try it.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Work with high value treats and practice periodically calling him to you to treat him while you're out in a more distracting area to see how he does, leaving his leash to trail just in case. I certainly wouldn't trust my GSD (18 months old) off leash in the foreseeable future, but I probably would have my old man shih tzu as he was very Velcro.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

It's tough to really know when your dog is reliable off leash. The scary truth is that you have to try it to know (and to get practice)!

With Pepper we started off small. Just a few minutes in a safe place. Every time she came near us or looked at us she got a treat. We kept increasing the time, but kept giving her treats whenever she came to us. Then we started calling her over randomly (when she wasn't too distracted) and giving her treats when she came. 

We still only let her off leash where there's lots of space for her to run and not get into trouble. Mostly we go on hiking trails, but sometimes to a park where there are other people and she does well, but we never push it.

She has high prey drive too, so it's always a risk. Each area we go to has to be assessed each time before allowing her off leash and I think it will just always be that way.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I test the waters slowly. Safe area, remote, when the dog is already used to checking in with me, etc.

Ok to be honest mia was off leash from day 1. With Hank I've been more careful but it's because he's an adult and had been a stray so who knows if he bolted or something. He's been off leash a few times already in remote areas and is doing good. I also risked it with the dog swimming area and it went well. Slowly earning some trust... I also let him drag a longline a lot. And I ALWAYS have good cookies on me when we're off leash.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Nicole.S. said:


> I understand that, one other thing I did was get a 50 foot 1/4 inch rope from the hardware store and let her drag that around. She didnt notice that she had it on her but it gives you a lot of rope if they start to run


Hmm yeah I just wish there was a way I could find something that didn't get caught in all the branches and rocks!



PatriciafromCO said:


> taquitos that is a perfect start.. trail the leash behind them in a safe area you had just walked through..
> 
> I start them in a safe area that i usually walk on lead many times, that I know the possibilities of that area and it's not a new exciting area for the pup "there's a routine to it" at some point and time I let them loose not too far from my property gate, it's a short distance to accomplish so I can observe how they handle it, we so close to home that my on leash repetitive command "to the house" will kick in naturally to them... just like walking in any other area and you say "going to the truck" as your getting closer it.. to instill a point to go to... naming your vehicle is a great command as it can be used anywhere you take them.. As time goes on I give them more distance on the way back to make it back to the house off lead....
> 
> Sounds like you have a great foundation already to work with


Yeah there aren't too many areas like that unfortunately. I live right off a busy street so I'm not even comfortable letting him do that near my own home :/ Am I being paranoid? LOL



sassafras said:


> ^^ Agreed, on a safe trail you've walked on leash they are already a bit "programmed" to stick with you somewhat. You can't ever know for sure but I usually have a pretty good idea and then just have to try it.


We don't have many trails besides the one that everyone frequents (we have a mountain in the middle of the city). Usually I go there early in the morning when no one is around, so it's only "off leash" time once in a blue moon, which does not give us many opportunities to practice :/



Galathiel said:


> Work with high value treats and practice periodically calling him to you to treat him while you're out in a more distracting area to see how he does, leaving his leash to trail just in case. I certainly wouldn't trust my GSD (18 months old) off leash in the foreseeable future, but I probably would have my old man shih tzu as he was very Velcro.


We do this already but I don't call him to me too often because yummy treats or not, he will start blowing me off if I ask him to do it too often (despite having been heavily rewarded every single time he comes when called LOL) xP He's sometimes very "what's in it for me?" ugh haha why can't he be like a normal toy breed and stick to people like glue!! lol



Jen2010 said:


> It's tough to really know when your dog is reliable off leash. The scary truth is that you have to try it to know (and to get practice)!
> 
> With Pepper we started off small. Just a few minutes in a safe place. Every time she came near us or looked at us she got a treat. We kept increasing the time, but kept giving her treats whenever she came to us. Then we started calling her over randomly (when she wasn't too distracted) and giving her treats when she came.
> 
> ...


Hmm thanks. I mean... I guess it's not CRUCIAL but I would really like to have the option of having him be more reliable off leash. I don't feel comfortable keeping him off leash on on leash areas and unfortunately there are only a handful of on leash areas (most of them those thunder dome type dog parks full of huge dogs so I never take him there since he's way too tiny and will just be trampled over lol).



Laurelin said:


> I test the waters slowly. Safe area, remote, when the dog is already used to checking in with me, etc.
> 
> Ok to be honest mia was off leash from day 1. With Hank I've been more careful but it's because he's an adult and had been a stray so who knows if he bolted or something. He's been off leash a few times already in remote areas and is doing good. I also risked it with the dog swimming area and it went well. Slowly earning some trust... I also let him drag a longline a lot. And I ALWAYS have good cookies on me when we're off leash.


Yeah I bring cheese or cooked meat (his favorites!). I guess it does come down to trusting him, but I don't trust him lol!! Maybe I'll try again one of these days


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm going to be honest.

Once you've done the training, the only way you're going to know -or the dog is going to earn trust - is by doing it.

I am at the point now because off leash reliability is such a big deal that I keep my dogs off leash from go. With the adult dogs I do work up to it and any blowing off or unreliability gets 'em leashed up again or dragging a long line, but.

Much like any other behaviour, the only way they know it is to practice it. There's a risk involved, always. It's just down to deciding whether the benefit is worth it for you and your dog(s).

Molly and Kylie and Thud got off leash time their entire lives with me. Thud had a period of about a month where he went back on a long line because he got a little bolt-y, but he's since earned off leash time. They learned early on that not paying attention to us resulted in us vanishing (scary), we practiced and heavily rewarded recalls, put them on leash or broke up playtime if they tried to blow us off, practiced recalling as a GAME (a fun, fun game) and then let it go.

Jack and Bug we just gradually tested. Remote areas, long lines, etc. Jack earned his freedom almost immediately, because he never got off our heels without being encouraged to go. Bug's a little sketchy on recall because deaf and I don't usually bother with the e-collar to page her, but she moves at the speed of frozen molasses and really needs to be around her people so she learned to check in often fast. 

But mostly, like I said: Risk/benefit. Risk will always be there. You've just got to decide if the benefit's worth it.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

no, your not being paranoid.. If I was in a traffic area/busy street area, I would not have my dogs off lead .. you can't take back a split second.. I have a whole lot of buffer when a pup takes off on a sudden impulse and there is miles and miles of open field with no road in sight the pup isn't going to keep running. I'm picky where I have my dogs off lead. And in more populated areas I don't feel the need to let them off lead, it's just not the place to do it.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Good advice from the others. I think it's a combination of gut feeling and training. Some dogs just naturally like to be close and check in more, in the house, on leash, and in general. Not to say that they naturally can be trusted off leash. But there is at least some foundation there to work with. Dogs like that, you can at least start out with very simple steps like not needing to worry as much getting them from the house to the car, or perhaps being able to spend some off leash time with them in the front yard. Other dogs, if you see them wired and twitching at every moving thing all the time, you might not feel comfortable having them off leash for a split second and training needs to always be with a line... So work with what you have (and it sounds like Meeko already has a great foundation), train train train everywhere, and like someone else said, just go for it one day (in a safe environment)


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

With the littles, the main risk is going to be other off leash dogs. So if he can call off dogs immediately, you're almost there. You want to choose a spot that you can see other people/dogs coming from a ways off so that when you see people coming you can leash him up before he feels the need to go over there. 

I would just let him drag a long line and reward him for sticking close and then let him off for little periods of time while you work with him. Always keep treats in your pocket, make sticking close way more exciting than running off.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

everyone talking about it I decided to take Adele off lead while I had Arka on lead for 1 mile training.. Adele is really weak,, she a bit of everywhere but stay'd within range and stopped to come back anytime I made a quick check to see if she was still mentally with us in her un constructive wonderings.. Lots of work but was her first time to be off lead for a distance.. on the way back she was ahead of us, but went right to the front gate of the property and sat and waited. She has learned but still iffy absent to be ready (she is strongly looking for other things to do then be on a run with us),, needs more lead work to keep closer and stay more focus'd .


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Thanks for the tips everyone! I took a "risk" yesterday and let his leash trail while we practiced some training in an area we've been many times. It was mostly just working on his down-stay, recall and some other fun tricks, but it made me feel better. Still very nervous though. I guess I could keep doing this until I am more comfortable letting him off leash for longer periods of time.





LoMD13 said:


> With the littles, the main risk is going to be other off leash dogs. So if he can call off dogs immediately, you're almost there. You want to choose a spot that you can see other people/dogs coming from a ways off so that when you see people coming you can leash him up before he feels the need to go over there.
> 
> I would just let him drag a long line and reward him for sticking close and then let him off for little periods of time while you work with him. Always keep treats in your pocket, make sticking close way more exciting than running off.


This is what I'm most nervous about. I am pretty sure he may rush at other dogs to go say hi, which I don't think is desirable. He's really weird about this though. It's also because a lot of people DON'T stop their dogs from rushing at MY dog and I don't want him getting frightened or defensive :/


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## Capri142 (Jun 14, 2013)

First you should never let your dog off leash, unless you are SURE that it is not going to bolt on you. Dog parks are great for this because then, even if they do take off they can only go so far and there is no chance of them running in to places that they should not be. You need to make sure your dog is happy around other dogs before heading off to the dog park though. We are lucky in that we have a few large dog parks nearby and one of them even has a forested area with walking trails. IF you don't have a dog park, when you first let your dog run free, start with a medium length long line, about 20', graduating to a 50' one. If you have used the 20' one long enough, when they get on the 50' one they will start checking out where you are when they get past the 20' mark or so...Good! this is what you want and if they have been on leash and long leash long enough, it is unlikely that they will go past the end of the 50' one. But if they do, not to worry just get to the end of the line, step on it bringing them to an abrupt halt even though they are half a foot ball field away..So when you finally feel comfortable enough to completely let them off leash, put about a 2' piece of line on their collar..This is important...The dog will know there is a leash on but having been stopped with the 50' line will NEVER KNOW HOW LONG it is. For the long lines I use a very light line: 1/8" braided nylon, Wear at least one glove to avoid rope burn and get a better grip on the thin line.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Capri142 said:


> First you should never let your dog off leash, unless you are SURE that it is not going to bolt on you. Dog parks are great for this because then, even if they do take off they can only go so far and there is no chance of them running in to places that they should not be. You need to make sure your dog is happy around other dogs before heading off to the dog park though. We are lucky in that we have a few large dog parks nearby and one of them even has a forested area with walking trails. IF you don't have a dog park, when you first let your dog run free, start with a medium length long line, about 20', graduating to a 50' one. If you have used the 20' one long enough, when they get on the 50' one they will start checking out where you are when they get past the 20' mark or so...Good! this is what you want and if they have been on leash and long leash long enough, it is unlikely that they will go past the end of the 50' one. But if they do, not to worry just get to the end of the line, step on it bringing them to an abrupt halt even though they are half a foot ball field away..So when you finally feel comfortable enough to completely let them off leash, put about a 2' piece of line on their collar..This is important...The dog will know there is a leash on but having been stopped with the 50' line will NEVER KNOW HOW LONG it is. For the long lines I use a very light line: 1/8" braided nylon, Wear at least one glove to avoid rope burn and get a better grip on the thin line.


I don't think you read any of my post if you are talking about long lines lol.

Like I said, my dog is fine on a long line -- he does not hit the end of the line unless he sees a squirrel run.

And dog parks here are "thunder dome" type parks... and having a leashed dog in a dog park is always a bad idea if lots of dogs are around :/


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree strongly with PatriciafromCO's experience and advice. It depends on what risk you're willing to take. For example, I walk Shep offleash on a quiet suburban street everyday. If a car comes by, we are very visible and I make sure that I'm between Shep and the car. If someone walks by, especially with another dog, I know that Shep will walk over to say hello. If I'm concerned, then I leash him, otherwise I let him go. If I try to stop him verbally, he may prefer the distraction to me, I'm never confident which ...

It sounds like you understand the limits of your dog - he may chase prey. If it's a squirrel, then he'll run to the tree (will he come back after he trees a squirrel? Even 4 years ago, Shep would sit and watch or bark at the treed squirrel.). However, if your dog sees another dog, a cat, a rabbit, a raccoon, a deer, etc. do you know what he'll do and are you OK with the result.

I think you may believe that some people have perfect dogs. I'd guess that the percentage of 'perfect' dogs is small, but the people who understand the limits and distractions is much larger... However... Internationally famous trainer, Dr. Ian Dunbar told a story about when he was trying to get his Akita an obedience title for the first time. He was in the ring with his dog off leash, and it was clear that the dog was bored, but there was something more interesting going on two rings over. So, this giant, 100+ pound dog calmly sprints over to see what's going on. Dunbar didn't know if he was allowed to call his dog back ... and everyone else was scared of this giant dog. The judges were embarrassed, "Dr. Dunbar, can you call your dog back?" "Oh Yes", and he called the dog, very sweetly, and it came bounding back as if nothing happened. "By the way, Dr. Dunbar, your dog loses [X?] points, so he won't pass this leg. I hope you understand." It can happen to everyone, when they're in new situations.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

If your dog won't recall away from people with other dogs 100% of the time, no matter if the other dogs are barking/jumping around, then you have no business having your dog off leash. Off leash dogs running up to other dogs are at risk of being killed...especially by dogs being walked on leash. And if there is any chance of your dog chasing a squirrel into the street, then common sense would tell you to keep them on a leash.

People who have off leash dogs that run up to my leashed dog piss me off. It is the ultimate in rudeness, entitlement and irresponsibility.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

spotted nikes said:


> If your dog won't recall away from people with other dogs 100% of the time, no matter if the other dogs are barking/jumping around, then you have no business having your dog off leash. Off leash dogs running up to other dogs are at risk of being killed...especially by dogs being walked on leash. And if there is any chance of your dog chasing a squirrel into the street, then common sense would tell you to keep them on a leash.


Look.

I get that off leash dogs come with risk, but I'm really getting kind of irritated by the constant assumption that if a dog is off leash it is off leash in an urban or suburban setting, or any other environment where there is any risk at all to other dogs/people. They're not all created equal. Location matters, a LOT. You are always taking risks with your own dogs. You are NOT always making a problem for someone else.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

CptJack said:


> Look.
> 
> I get that off leash dogs come with risk, but I'm really getting kind of irritated by the constant assumption that if a dog is off leash it is off leash in an urban or suburban setting, or any other environment where there is any risk at all to other dogs/people. They're not all created equal. Location matters, a LOT. You are always taking risks with your own dogs. You are NOT always making a problem for someone else.


Look yourself...Did you read the post above mine where the poster said her dog may or may not prefer the distraction and walk up to another dog? And the post where the OP states that her dog will always go after squirrels and not recall, and that she is near a busy road? 

There is absolutely nothing in my post that made assumptions that weren't based on what posters stated on this very thread. You jumped to conclusions that were invalid. And I personally feel that if your dog doesn't have 100% recall away from people with dogs, then you SHOULDN'T have them off leash. If your own dogs have 100% recall, then feel free to have them off leash in whatever areas don't have leash laws.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> I agree strongly with PatriciafromCO's experience and advice. It depends on what risk you're willing to take. For example, I walk Shep offleash on a quiet suburban street everyday. If a car comes by, we are very visible and I make sure that I'm between Shep and the car. If someone walks by, especially with another dog, I know that Shep will walk over to say hello. If I'm concerned, then I leash him, otherwise I let him go. If I try to stop him verbally, he may prefer the distraction to me, I'm never confident which ...
> 
> It sounds like you understand the limits of your dog - he may chase prey. If it's a squirrel, then he'll run to the tree (will he come back after he trees a squirrel? Even 4 years ago, Shep would sit and watch or bark at the treed squirrel.). However, if your dog sees another dog, a cat, a rabbit, a raccoon, a deer, etc. do you know what he'll do and are you OK with the result.
> 
> I think you may believe that some people have perfect dogs. I'd guess that the percentage of 'perfect' dogs is small, but the people who understand the limits and distractions is much larger... However... Internationally famous trainer, Dr. Ian Dunbar told a story about when he was trying to get his Akita an obedience title for the first time. He was in the ring with his dog off leash, and it was clear that the dog was bored, but there was something more interesting going on two rings over. So, this giant, 100+ pound dog calmly sprints over to see what's going on. Dunbar didn't know if he was allowed to call his dog back ... and everyone else was scared of this giant dog. The judges were embarrassed, "Dr. Dunbar, can you call your dog back?" "Oh Yes", and he called the dog, very sweetly, and it came bounding back as if nothing happened. "By the way, Dr. Dunbar, your dog loses [X?] points, so he won't pass this leg. I hope you understand." It can happen to everyone, when they're in new situations.


Thanks for the encouraging story haha! Oh, Dr Dunbar he can sometimes be so silly. He is such a likeable person 

I took him to a park where it was extremely secluded this morning. Did some training with him with the leash dragging behind him. He saw squirrels and also saw a couple of dogs, but did not bolt for them. Definitely heavily rewarded for that of course  I had the leash right by my feet, ready to step on it if he made a run for it, but he didn't 



spotted nikes said:


> If your dog won't recall away from people with other dogs 100% of the time, no matter if the other dogs are barking/jumping around, then you have no business having your dog off leash. Off leash dogs running up to other dogs are at risk of being killed...especially by dogs being walked on leash. And if there is any chance of your dog chasing a squirrel into the street, then common sense would tell you to keep them on a leash.
> 
> People who have off leash dogs that run up to my leashed dog piss me off. It is the ultimate in rudeness, entitlement and irresponsibility.


I think you are assuming that I would let this happen. I have not ever had this happen. And yes, I do agree it's rude and I personally dislike it myself having fostered an extremely leash reactive, dog selective dog. You are assuming I will have him loose somewhere with high traffic (dogs, people, cars), which I would not do lol. If you read my reply to PatriciafromCO I explicitly mention that I do not feel comfortable even letting him off leash when we are right by my front door (I am assuming you read this because you picked up on myself living in an urban area). The only times Meeko has been off leash for practice have been in areas where I had a good sight of the perimeter, so I was able to stop him before anything happened.



spotted nikes said:


> Look yourself...Did you read the post above mine where the poster said her dog may or may not prefer the distraction and walk up to another dog? And the post where the OP states that her dog will always go after squirrels and not recall, and that she is near a busy road?
> 
> There is absolutely nothing in my post that made assumptions that weren't based on what posters stated on this very thread. You jumped to conclusions that were invalid. And I personally feel that if your dog doesn't have 100% recall away from people with dogs, then you SHOULDN'T have them off leash. If your own dogs have 100% recall, then feel free to have them off leash in whatever areas don't have leash laws.


I also did not say he rushed every dog? I said I felt that he might. I haven't tested this. I would never let my 7 lbs dog rush any dog lol most of them are significantly larger, and he would be at risk. I think maybe you are jumping to conclusions here :/

No one has encouraged me to take my dog and put him off leash without TRAINING ON LEASH FIRST. Like I said, I have never let my dog rush at other dogs that were on leash, in busy areas, etc.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I guess fundamentally I don't believe that there is any such thing as 100%. 

You might get to 98.5, but I don't believe any dog is ever going to be 100% against any eventuality. You do the best you can with it, you do what it takes to make sure that other people and animals aren't going to suffer the consequences, and then you make the call. At the end of the day, mostly you take the call.

I started my dogs off leash in areas where bolting has more risk of them running into a bear or off a cliff than coming across a person or another dog. At this point I have been taking a couple of the better ones to public parks where I have good visibility at hours when they're deserted (or mostly so - One of my pictures of the dogs practicing stays zoomed in and showed a couple of people on a bench behind a bush - never saw or heard them while we were working). That's a bigger risk- because they could get into situations that would impact others in a negative way. 

As a very, very related aside and more directly related to the topic at hand: I find my dogs are 200% WORSE off leash around my house than anywhere else. I think there's almost too much security in being on home turf. Somehow.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh and while I'm no Ian Dunbar, I had Kylie at an agility thing and she did really, really awesomely.

Until the last run. She got on the field, did one sequence, turned and BOLTED off the field, through all the people while I screamed "Don't grab her!" and straight to my husband and into his lap. 

I called her back and she came readily, but *really*, dog?


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

taquitos said:


> Thanks for the encouraging story haha! Oh, Dr Dunbar he can sometimes be so silly. He is such a likeable person
> 
> I took him to a park where it was extremely secluded this morning. Did some training with him with the leash dragging behind him. He saw squirrels and also saw a couple of dogs, but did not bolt for them. Definitely heavily rewarded for that of course  I had the leash right by my feet, ready to step on it if he made a run for it, but he didn't
> 
> ...


My remark about squirrels and streets was in response to you saying he chases them, and you are near a busy street...Your OP asked " When do you know if your dog was reliable off leash?"...My post was giving my opinion that if he chases squirrels and doesn't have 100% recall, and you are near a busy street...then never. I wasn't saying you do it now. I gave my opinion of when, based on your question.

I HATE when people have dogs off leash that are trained with a 100% recall. I've had my dogs attacked 5 times from off leash dogs, with 4 of the owners yelling "He's friendly! and "They're trained!", right before they attacked mine that were leashed, requiring vet visits. All of these incidents were in Leash law areas. Two were around midnight, involving 2 German Sheps (same owners both of those times, and they actually said..."Why would I have them LEASHED? They're trained!"


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

spotted nikes said:


> My remark about squirrels and streets was in response to you saying he chases them, and you are near a busy street...Your OP asked " When do you know if your dog was reliable off leash?"...My post was giving my opinion that if he chases squirrels and doesn't have 100% recall, and you are near a busy street...then never. I wasn't saying you do it now. I gave my opinion of when, based on your question.
> 
> I HATE when people have dogs off leash that are trained with a 100% recall. I've had my dogs attacked 5 times from off leash dogs, with 4 of the owners yelling "He's friendly! and "They're trained!", right before they attacked mine that were leashed, requiring vet visits. All of these incidents were in Leash law areas. Two were around midnight, involving 2 German Sheps (same owners both of those times, and they actually said..."Why would I have them LEASHED? They're trained!"


Except I didn't take his leash off, had the leash that was trailing right by my feet 90% time to be able to step on it if he bolted, was watching my own dog like a hawk for signs of him seeing squirrels, and I made sure there were no squirrels? It's pretty darn easy to spot a squirrel if you're on a field with a single tree in its proximity. On top of that you assumed that this area was right off of the busy street, which it isn't. I LIVE off a busy street, this PLACE is not off of a busy street. This place is in an area where it's 20 km/h (residential, school zone), where there's a fence around so only one exit, and on top of that it was at 7 AM in the morning on a Saturday morning which means very little cars).

And yes, I have had that happen too, even with leashed dogs lol (where people are being dragged by their dogs who is rushing at other people's dogs).


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

taquitos said:


> Except I didn't take his leash off, had the leash that was trailing right by my feet 90% time to be able to step on it if he bolted, was watching my own dog like a hawk for signs of him seeing squirrels, and I made sure there were no squirrels? It's pretty darn easy to spot a squirrel if you're on a field with a single tree in its proximity. On top of that you assumed that this area was right off of the busy street, which it isn't. I LIVE off a busy street, this PLACE is not off of a busy street. This place is in an area where it's 20 km/h (residential, school zone), where there's a fence around so only one exit, and on top of that it was at 7 AM in the morning on a Saturday morning which means very little cars).
> 
> And yes, I have had that happen too, even with leashed dogs lol (where people are being dragged by their dogs who is rushing at other people's dogs).


I think clearly we are talking about 2 different things. Let me see if I can be clearer...I am not saying you do those things. I am responding to your question in the thread title "When do you know your dog is reliable off leash?" And I am saying that based on your OP, about your dog chasing squirrels, and possibly going up to another dog, that he is not ready to be off leash, IMO. And that until they have 100% recall, they shouldn't be off leash. Again that's MY OPINION. You can choose to do whatever you want. I am responding to your title. The title doesn't say "when can they be off leash in busy areas, by roads, in the woods, anywhere else"...It was just a general question. So I gave my opinion.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

spotted nikes said:


> I think clearly we are talking about 2 different things. Let me see if I can be clearer...I am not saying you do those things. I am responding to your question in the thread title "When do you know your dog is reliable off leash?" And I am saying that based on your OP, about your dog chasing squirrels, and possibly going up to another dog, that he is not ready to be off leash, IMO. And that until they have 100% recall, they shouldn't be off leash. Again that's MY OPINION. You can choose to do whatever you want. I am responding to your title. The title doesn't say "when can they be off leash in busy areas, by roads, in the woods, anywhere else"...It was just a general question. So I gave my opinion.


Actually I was asking for advice and explaining my situation, so every other piece of information that I have given is completely relevant to how you choose to respond to the post. No one is telling you you can't have an opinion but you are assuming a lot of things.

You citing your experiences with irresponsible dog owners letting their dogs off leash, and then disagreeing with CptJack about the relevance of the situation of each individual dog owner and their dog, makes it sound as though you are calling me (and others) irresponsible dog owners, despite our own unique situations.

I just gave you various reasons as to how MY situation, which this post is about, is different and how your opinions, quite honestly, are about a completely different topic. No one is talking about irresponsible dog owners letting their dogs off leash without working on base foundation work (such as with things like impulse control). I'm not doing that, and the post was not about that.

You actually didn't answer the question, which is "how do you know when your dog is off leash?"

So yeah, I guess we ARE talking about two different things because you are posting an opinion which you clearly pointed out was irrelevant to what everyone else was discussing.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I am lucky and have lots of safe places to have my dogs off leash. I have all my dogs off leash from the time I first get them. Puppies want to stay close and as they follow the other dogs, it is easy to get them to keep checking back. Every once in a while we will call them back and hand out treats and it is a rush for everyone to get their first. They have to all sit and wait their turn, then they can run off and play again. Never had any of them just take off and keep going. I take Kris and three of my Shih Tzu x Maltese, down to the fairgrounds every time I have them with me when I go to town and let them have a good run. It is well off any roads and lots of good trails and open fields. With some breeds it is probably a little harder but I think if you start them young they are more inclined to stay with you.

When Kris was 11 weeks old when I first got her, we used to walk her, my sister's Rat Terrier and some of the Shih Tzu together. We have not walked them together for quite a while as Kris got a little rough playing with them but she is fine with my own dogs. She is getting better though so will probably walk them together again this winter.


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## Rocky33 (May 8, 2014)

I wondered the same thing and took a leap of faith this week at the dog beach. We had been there before but I had kept him on leash. This time we went when it was not so busy and it would be easy for me to track him.
Well....he did great! He was off leash for about 2 hrs and never went further than about 25 ft away. Even when he was chasing after another dog it was like an invisible wall and he would turn around after about 25 ft or so.
He did great with the other dogs and though he wouldn't get in the water, he had a sniff fest and had a great time I think.
Now that I know he's good, we'll be going more often.

So in some cases I think you just have to try it in a safe area and see what happens. You'll never know otherwise.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

taquitos said:


> Actually I was asking for advice and explaining my situation, so every other piece of information that I have given is completely relevant to how you choose to respond to the post. No one is telling you you can't have an opinion but you are assuming a lot of things.
> 
> You citing your experiences with irresponsible dog owners letting their dogs off leash, and then disagreeing with CptJack about the relevance of the situation of each individual dog owner and their dog, makes it sound as though you are calling me (and others) irresponsible dog owners, despite our own unique situations.
> 
> ...


I give up. We obviously have communicating styles that clash.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

spotted nikes said:


> I give up. We obviously have communicating styles that clash.


Yeah except you can't practice recall off leash without having the dog off leash. You can practice as much as you can on leash but some dogs still know.

Also you didn't say that lol you said dogs had no business being off leash if they are not 100% reliable on being called away FROM ANOTHER DOG.

What if you are not taking your dog off leash in an area with other dogs?

And you mentioned prey drive/squirrels, and again, it was situational.

My dog was off leash in an area where a) there were no dogs, b) there were no squirrels... soooo um yeah I am pretty sure he was fine? Why can't you let your dog off leash in a safe area if all those factors are already taken into account? The dog would be 100% reliable IN THAT SITUATION.


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## Capri142 (Jun 14, 2013)

taquitos said:


> I don't think you read any of my post if you are talking about long lines lol.
> 
> Like I said, my dog is fine on a long line -- he does not hit the end of the line unless he sees a squirrel run.
> 
> And dog parks here are "thunder dome" type parks... and having a leashed dog in a dog park is always a bad idea if lots of dogs are around :/


 Sorry if I was not clear. The use of the long line is to let the dog know that you can "reach out and touch them" even though they are a long ways away. If the long line is used properly and long enough, a dog when finally off leash, keep an eye on where his/her master is. As I said in my post ios is important to used a very short line (just a few inches to a foot long) after you decide t let them off of the long line and run free. Why? because having stopped them at the end of a 50' line the dog will ne3ver know just how long the line is. What you are looking for is ultimately a dog that when off leash, even tho not close to you, is always checking to make sure where you are...That you are more important than the squirrel. Until you give him permission to chase it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Capri142 said:


> Why? because having stopped them at the end of a 50' line the dog will ne3ver know just how long the line is. What you are looking for is ultimately a dog that when off leash, even tho not close to you, is always checking to make sure where you are...


 This can be achieved through R+. There's no need to use the looming threat of getting his neck snapped from "stepping on the line" and bringing him to an "abrupt halt" at some point that is only clear to the handler. I like my dogs to enjoy their liberty, not fear it. The line, if used, is there strictly for safety purposes while actual training takes place, and merely prevents the dog from running off into the sunset.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

We are lucky that we have huge trail networks in our neighborhood. They are very secluded and far from the streets. I just decided to try it one day. I figured I wouldn't know unless I tried. Jewel has decent recall, but isn't great. I would NEVER allow her off leash anywhere near the roads. However, in the trails, it works for us. I let her chase squirrels and she checks in with me every 2-3 minutes. I've actually let both fosters off leash too and they were great. Off leash hiking is our predominant exercise and I don't know what I'd do without it. There is nothing to me like watching dogs run around in the wilderness.

ETA: I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but the first few times, we went with another dog who was reliable off leash. Jewel picked up queues from her and I felt better about it because the dogs were together and if we called the reliable one back, they would both come.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

d_ray said:


> ETA: I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but the first few times, we went with another dog who was reliable off leash. Jewel picked up queues from her and I felt better about it because the dogs were together and if we called the reliable one back, they would both come.


No one mentioned it, and it's a very good method, just like using a trained adult to help train a puppy. On the other hand, people don't always know when someone else's dog is 'reliable' ... or a potential bad example  [Shep is a good example, but he's also a good distraction, b/c he can be an instigator! A dog that knows how to Stay or Come! while Shep is staring at him or teasing him will learn to be rock-solid. ] 

@CptJack - It appears that Kylie has 100% recall during fieldwork, for both you and your husband 

BTW, once again for the record, to clear up two common, faulty assumptions: I've been on the Forum for about 5 years, My dog's name is Shep, and my name is HankSimon (not hanksMOM) ... I'm a HIM not a her ;-) ... a minority... I know.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

d_ray said:


> We are lucky that we have huge trail networks in our neighborhood. They are very secluded and far from the streets. I just decided to try it one day. I figured I wouldn't know unless I tried. Jewel has decent recall, but isn't great. I would NEVER allow her off leash anywhere near the roads. However, in the trails, it works for us. I let her chase squirrels and she checks in with me every 2-3 minutes. I've actually let both fosters off leash too and they were great. Off leash hiking is our predominant exercise and I don't know what I'd do without it. There is nothing to me like watching dogs run around in the wilderness.
> 
> ETA: I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but the first few times, we went with another dog who was reliable off leash. Jewel picked up queues from her and I felt better about it because the dogs were together and if we called the reliable one back, they would both come.


Good idea! Thanks 

Someone did mention it but I'm not sure if that will help Meeko. He's a bit of a "lone wolf" hahahaha. We'll keep practicing with the long line and supervised short sessions until I am more comfortable


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

LOL I have had dogs since the age of 7 and I have only had one that was totally trust worthy off lead. Josefina has excellent recall but will get to following her nose and disappear  so outside of a fenced area, she is on a leash.


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## Jadesy (Mar 13, 2014)

To OP: Look into small dog playtimes, maybe. There is a local "yappy hour" here indoors, where I checked stuff like how quickly Ruby could be called off other dogs.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Jadesy said:


> To OP: Look into small dog playtimes, maybe. There is a local "yappy hour" here indoors, where I checked stuff like how quickly Ruby could be called off other dogs.


Yeah unfortunately we don't have similar things around here 

Well just an update!

We've been visiting this giant football field that is an unofficial dog park. It was recommended to me by a fellow dog owner. I am very happy with the location! It's fully fenced in, but the door is a bit problematic as Meeko can just slip under lol so we've been walking far away from that side of the field after a slight accident the first time we visited. He took off after a dog he saw on the street D: I was really scared but I didn't run after him. I just yelled "MEEKO, COME" and he stopped in his tracks and flew back to me so yay!

We've been visiting during the weekends in the early mornings. Usually there are one or two other dogs,b ut the owners are all respectful (they don't let their dogs rush at other dogs and we all do our own thing). Meeko has not rushed any dog since the first time. I am able to call him off the seagulls as well (he tried to chase them the first two times we were there).

I think we just really needed to practice. We'll continue going there to work on his off leash reliability


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That sounds like a great start! It does sound like you guys just need some more practice, and you need to get comfortable with where his recall skills are at. But it sounds like you'll be hiking off leash in no time.


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