# Dog peeing in front of me (indoors)...on purpose?



## jamiesuzanne

So this morning I took my dog out as usual, expecting him to pee and poop (same as every morning). When he's done, he usually pulls me towards the door to go inside, letting me know he's totally finished. But this morning, he wouldn't pee. He kept pulling me towards the door, like he was done, but I made him stay out longer, cuz I knew he hadn't peed.

Well, eventually I just gave up, he obviously didn't have to pee, so I took him back inside. (Now, just to give a little background, my dog does have problems w/ the occasional piddle around the house, but its usually just little bits here and there, or a small line on the carpet, like it just came out while he was walking. He hasn't flat out peed inside since I first got him back in October.)

So I was in the bathroom, with the door open, and Copper likes to sit in the hallway and wait for me. He was out there, playing with a toy, when all of a sudden I hear him peeing. I turn around and he's right there, squatting, taking a piss on the carpet...staring up at me the whole time.

So, I punished him (I caught him in the act!), and instead of taking him on a car ride as i had planned, he had to stay home alone in his kennel.

Then, tonight I was sitting on the couch, and he walked over right next to my feet, looked up at me, and squatted and peed again. RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!!!

What is this? Some sort of dominance thing? I don't get it...he always gets punished for using the bathroom inside, so why would he seek me out and do it right in front of me rather than go into another room and try to hide it? I don't get it, and I don't know what to do.

Like I said, he hasn't just flat out peed in the house in a long time, but he does piddle a lot and I've often wondered what the deal with that was, as well. He still poops inside from time to time, as well, and none of it makes sense because he's good about letting me know when he has to go out...sometimes he just doesn't do it.

I've had many dogs in my time, and I've NEVER had a dog with bathroom issues like this one. 

(Not sure if breeds make a difference in this sort of behavior, but just in case, he's part chihuahua and part Basenji)


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## LMH

This is not a dominance thing. Haha, it makes me laugh to think of him walking up to you to do that. Once time I was playing with my dog and he dropped his toy ,looked right at me and pee'd. He just needs more training. My dog wasn't fully potty trained till after a year! When you catch him in the act what exactly are you doing? Punishing him all day will NOT teach him anything. they have short term memory. The correction should be within 2 seconds of catching them and not to last more than 5 seconds which is how long it would take me to lift him up and take him outside. he might be doing it to seek out attention or that he just hasn't fully connected peeing outside. Is it very cold outside? When i would catch my dog I would make a big to do about it and say outside, outside! while i'm carrying him outside and take him to the yard. even if he has finished i leave him out there while I clean up the mess inside. Don't let him see you clean up the mess. When he does pee outside are you praising him and giving him treats?


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## TooneyDogs

It's actually quite simple.....from the dogs perspective. He thinks he's supposed to go in the house now...he's done it so many times....but, he's not sure of exactly where...he looks at you and basically says, "Here?" 
He gets punished but, you keep in him in the house...you're not showing him where the right potty area is. Punishment without showing him what is right is meaningless.
When you catch him in the act, do not let him finish in the house..interupt him with a handclap and a firm "NO"! and hustle him outside. Praise profusely and treat for finishing outside. 
If he still doesn't get the message, you'll have to go back to housetraining 101 by crating him, putting him on a strict food, water and potty schedule with no freedom of the house until the lesson is learned.


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## briteday

You say that he doesn't let you know when he has to go out and has never been reliably housetrained as he still poops in the house.

This dog is not completely housetrained and is still confused about where to go. He doesn't need to TELL you when he has to go. YOU have to put the dog on a set schedule of eating and eliminating so he knows what to EXPECT. 

2 meals per day, pick up the water bowl two hours before bed, crate at night and when you are not home, tether him to you with a leash when you are indoors, and take him outside every two hours to start. Remember to praise and reward for business being done. Also if you haven't cleaned your carpets with an enzyme cleaner from the pet store your dog can smell where you "cleaned up" the messes and will continue to eliminate in the house.

Punishing a dog serves no purpose. Dogs, unlike people, do not hold grudges/resentment/anger. Next time the dog eliminates in the house slap the back of your hand and say "bad human" (for not watching him) and get out the enzyme cleaner and put your nose down near the floor so you can smell if you got it all when you clean it up.

Also, before chalking anything up to behavior I would have the vet check his urine for an infection. And be sure your dog is getting plenty of exercise every day, outside the yard for at least 30 minutes, EVERY DAY (did I mention every day and outside the house and yard because those places are no longer physically and mentally stimulating to him?)


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## jamiesuzanne

I've had him since October, and he goes outside pretty routinely.

I do keep him crated during the day while I'm at work, but on most days he's not crated for more than 6 hours, and any day longer than that, my roommate lets him out when she gets home.

He never pees in his cage, and I do praise him when he goes outside. He goes out first thing every morning, as soon as I get home, once later in the evening, and then once before bed, every day. There's no reason he should be going indoors.

And leaving him in the crate today wasn't his punishment, really...I mean, he gets left in the crate whenever I leave. It was just more of an issue of me being pissed at him and not wanting to take him with me.

I also realize that catching him in the act is crutial, and I don't punish him unless I DO catch him, which has made these past 2 times easy because he's done it right in front of me. I did catch him pooping once last week and he was punished for that, as well.

As far as getting him to stop mid-pee or mid-poop and running him outside, it's impossible. The time I caught him pooping, he just went right on doing it even after I picked him up to get him off the carpet, and the same is with the peeing. I jump up and yell NO! and he just keeps going. And if I pick him up...well, then I just get pee all over the walls, because he just goes until he's done. I had to clean up a nice trail of it today on TOP of the huge puddle he left, because he peed the entire way to the crate.

So it's not an issue of not going outside enough, it's something else.

And he DOES let me know when he needs to go out, he stands at the door and lowers his head and looks at me with this "can we go out now?" look.

The handful of times he's gone in the house, he hasn't bothered with letting me know, but as a general rule, he does give me hints.

As far as getting out in the yard, I live in a condo, so that's not much of an option. I do play fetch w/ him inside and get him to run around a lot (he's very small, and our condo has lots of running room) and I do walk him around on his leash outside and take him to parks when it's nice out. When I'm visiting my parents he gets free roam of 2 acres.


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## War

The fact that he is going inside means he has never fully made the connection that he needs to do it outside "All the time". To me a dog that pees right in front of you is saying that he has no clue what he is supposed to do and is looking for you to give him direction.You need to buy one of those cleaners that eliminates the odor or else he will always have a hard time understanding why he cant go inside when his 'scent' is all over the house


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## RonE

We expect WAY too much from our dogs.

We expect that, if we catch them peeing in the house and punish them, that they are suppose to extrapolate and figure out that it's the house part that's bad, not the peeing. Then, if we leave them in the crate instead of taking them for a ride, they are suppose to sit in there and think, "Damn! I'll bet if I had gone OUTSIDE to pee, I'd be riding in the car right now!"

Our dogs have tremendous natural senses, but they aren't the mental giants that we like to imagine they are.


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## agility collie mom

Hi, You said that he is a small breed dog. Remember small dog small bladder. How old is this dog? Also some dog's signals are brief and vague. If you do not see him asking to go out aka:sitting by door, they just go. My dog was one of these dog's so I taught him to ring a bell, this way anywhere I am in the house if I hear the bell I know that he has to go out. I am teaching my new puppy this also. Be patient and positive we all know how frustrating this is. Good luck and let us know if he figures it out.


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## jamiesuzanne

RonE said:


> We expect WAY too much from our dogs.
> 
> Then, if we leave them in the crate instead of taking them for a ride, they are suppose to sit in there and think, "Damn! I'll bet if I had gone OUTSIDE to pee, I'd be riding in the car right now!"
> 
> Our dogs have tremendous natural senses, but they aren't the mental giants that we like to imagine they are.



I DID mention that leaving him in the crate instead of taking him with me was more because I was pissed than anything. I realize he has no idea that he's missing out on a car ride as a punishment.

And this morning, I got up to take him outside, and as I was putting on my shoes, he squatted and pooped next to the couch, and as I was yelling at him for that, he walked over and peed by the door. This is not an issue of potty training, I don't care what you say. He has NEVER done this kind of thing before. The only times he's pooped inside have been because I didn't take him out first thing, I got MYSELF ready first, and I've learned my lesson, that he comes first. Back when I first got him, the random peeing was like a war between him and my roommates male dog...they both did it all over the place, but the stopped that a long time ago.

This is either flat out defiance or....I don't know what it is. But I've had him for several months and this sort of thing has never EVER happened, especially this frequently. This makes three times in a row for the peeing, and one for the pooping.

I love my dog, and I would never abandon him, but it's days like this that make me understand why some people dump their dogs. I'm SOOOOO frustrated with him!!!


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## Shalva

OK stop..... 

Dogs do not Pee to piss people off (no pun intended... ok maybe a little) 

they do not use bodily functions as defiance..... 

Your dog does not understand the housebreaking and the fact that he was standing in front of you looking at you probably just means that in his little dog brain he was telling you he had to go out..... if you could be dog psychic you could probably hear in his brain him saying (gotta pee gotta pee, oops peed).... 

its NOT DEFIANCE for the 5th time.... its a puppy that is unclear of the rules..... 

I had the same experience just last week with my six month old.... he had been excellent .... totally housebroken.... and the more secure we get in the fact that we THINK they are housebroken the less we pay attention to those very subtle cues that previously would of had us rushing the puppy outside..... 

You need to take a step backwards and reinforce what he already knows. 

puppies are just that puppies.... I am constantly reminding my puppy people that their 8 mos. old puppy has been alive for 240 total days...... think of all your puppy has learned in 240 days..... shoot it takes most people significantly longer than that to learn to use the toilet...... and be housebroken...... 

take a step backwards.... pretend your pup is little again..... or has just come home.... and stop putting human feelings onto your dog....(anthropomophizing) your dog is not human.... they are not scooby doo.... they are not spiteful or defiant..... they are dogs.... who want to please you and the fact that he was looking at you to me only says that he did want to please you..... and you couldn't read the communication..... 

take a step backwards.... calm down..... and get back to work reinforcing the housebreaking. 

s


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## LittleMoonRabbit

"This is either flat out defiance or....I don't know what it is. But I've had him for several months and this sort of thing has never EVER happened, especially this frequently. This makes three times in a row for the peeing, and one for the pooping."

You may want to take your pup to the vet, get some tests run. If you really are convinced that this is completely new, and he has never had this kind of behavior before, a vet check never hurts. Radical changes in behavior can sometimes be attributed to medical conditions. 

Did something happen outside that you can think of that maybe scared away from going outside? Did you ever yell while outside (maybe not at him, at someone else?) and he mistook it for a correction? Sometimes things happen in the dog's mind while we are outside that we don't even think of, but they can affect a dog long after.

And I 6th the idea that dogs do not pee to make people angry. They pee because they need to go... WHERE they go can only be fully established from consistent reinforcement over the course of months and months. My dog still isn't completely potty trained, and she's 10 months old. She is ALMOST there... but I still have work to do. It's frustrating, it's annoying... but it's all part of owning a puppy.


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## TooneyDogs

One last comment....it's not impossible to make a dog move...even while going potty. You stop him by 'rushing him'...shuffle your feet straight towards him...make him move towards the door to outside. Even if he piddles all the out....that's OK....he's going in the right direction and the right potty area.


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## jamiesuzanne

Children often do bad things to get their parents attention, even if it means NEGATIVE attention, because I guess to kids it's better than NO attention.

So who's to say dogs don't do the same thing? I think it's funny that on here, everyone is so quick to basically say dogs are perfect, and any flaws they have are their owners faults for not training them correctly, taking them outside enough, giving them enough attention, etc.

I realize nobody's trying to be mean here, or actually "blaming" me for any of Copper's issues, but I just think it's odd that nobody thinks dog's can have attitudes or hold grudges.

I have a friend who's dog purposely tears something up in the house if she's out later than normal. This, to me, says that the dog is mad for being left alone for too long. 

My point is, maybe I was too harsh with Copper in some other area, or I was too busy and not giving him the attention he wanted, and that maybe he was just actually mad at me and his peeing was his way of saying so. He doesn't chew on my stuff, and he doesn't bite, but he has pottied inside before so he probably figured that was the best way to tick me off, because he's seen me ticked about it before.

I'm certainly not claiming to be a dog expert, but I've told this story to numerous poeple and every one of them has responded with "He's mad at you about something."

Not to say you're all wrong...because maybe you aren't. I just think that dogs ARE smarter than some of us give them credit for, and just like a child doing something bad to get attention from a parent, a dog could very well do the same thing.

So far, no more accidents though...so we'll see how things go.


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## RonE

> I have a friend who's dog purposely tears something up in the house if she's out later than normal. This, to me, says that the dog is mad for being left alone for too long.


And to me, it says the dog was bored. We agree on the cause, but not on the motivation.



> but he has pottied inside before so he probably figured that was the best way to tick me off, because he's seen me ticked about it before.


Then wouldn't it follow that the best way to discourage him from pottying in the house would be to show no reaction at all to it, except tp quietly clean it up?

Certainly dogs do things to get our attention. Mine will stare at me, nudge me with her nose and throw tennis balls at me. Molly will bark at me and I have to make it a point to ignore her until she stops.

But the idea of revenge or grudges among dogs against humans has largely been dismissed.


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## Dogsareme

Just sounds like to me he has backed up a few steps in his training. This is not unknown to happen.

Try limiting his water if you are having some trouble. No water 2 hours before bed. If he pees before you get your stuff on and get outside, carry him. If that is not possible get the leash on right away put him outside and hook it to the door handle on the inside of the door and close the door until you get your stuff on. Dogs do have to come first in the morning, we can hold our body functions... puppies... not so much. 

If he has had accidents inside the house before get the carpets cleaned well or the smell sometimes comes through and entices the dog to go in those areas again.

When he is looking at you and peeing it does not mean he was trying to get a reaction out of you. They can tell your emotions by your body signals and tone of voice so of course he will seem to "look" guilty for what he did. Dogs do not have the same complicated emotions as we do(lucky dogs!! ) . They don't understand right from wrong, good or bad. Dogs live in the moment, they are creatures of habit and instinct. Dogs like to chew they can't help if they accidently grabbed your favorite pair of shoes, the rubber was so much like the toys you buy him... he was not punishing you for leaving... he just got bored and did not know what else to do and then suddenly he found your shoe. What if he did not chew up your shoe, but his own favorite toy and had it all torn to peices? Did he do that to get back at you? Its just a habit, no hidden meaning. Even the most well behaved dogs get an incline to chew something every now and then.


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## wvasko

Through the years I have heard this from a few small dog owners, they smelled something urine or poop etc. They check in a corner or under the bed etc and they find a total mess. that may have started anywhere from a week or whatever time. large dog pees etc and you pretty much notice it immediately. A bad habit is sometimes started that you know nothing about. In this case it sounds like it was a complete marking/elimination problem was started between dogs. The replies made that dogs are not spiteful are 100% correct, this is also my opinion after 45 years of dog work. I think that sometimes condo living could be a problem with an occasional owner, possibly stretching the taking dog out schedule. Please, it's not necessary for feedback from all the condo owners. I said a possibility. Just something to toss in the pot to think about.


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## Love's_Sophie

The next time he doesn't pee outdoors, when you have taken him out to do so, put him in his kennel; you are giving him the opportunity TO piddle in the house when you give him free run of the house when you don't kennel him even if he hasn't done his business outdoors, and I think he knows it; dogs will go where it's most 'convenient' to them if they find the opportunity...


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## Elana55

I never heard of a dog "holding a grudge" or doing something "to get negative attention." Children do it but dogs are not that clever or ill willed. They are not that HUMAN.

However, all that is not solving the problem. You need to go back to square one and start over with the house training. THAT is what will solve the problem. 

Use a crate. NEVER let the dog loose unless you are right there. When you let him out of the crate take him outside IMMEDIATELY.. attach the leash and OUT you go (so bget dressed b4 taking him out) and the minute the dog poos or pees outside, praise him as if he is the most wonderful dog in the world. When he is not in his crate indoors, tie him to you with a leash. Always take him out 15 minutes after a meal or a big drink or 15 minutes of play. IOW's, make sure he has no opportunity to pee or poo inside. If that means on a leash or in a crate all the time he is inside, so be it. 

In addition to this, clean the carpets and use an enzyme cleaner on any spot he has gone to remove that marker. Nature's Miracle is a good one. 

Start over, and do not punish for eliminating indoors.. simply be sure he does not get the chance to and get him right OUT if he does.. no matter how inconvenient that process is.. no matter how aggravated you feel.. and then when he is outside praise him.. regardless of how much you feel like ringing his neck. 

What you have is not a disobedient dog, but a dog that was never truly housebroken. Very simple. Really it is. 

Gosh.. Atka is 13 months old, only made one mistake in the house (other than when she was sick last summer) and knows the words "pee" and "Crap" and what to do when those words are spoken.. and I STILL praise her and reward her with food some of the time. I don't think housebreaking can ever be reinforced too much!


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## Bella5

I don't care what all of you guys say. We've only had our puppy for a week and she has been awesome to train to go outside. Until today. We had to take my mom back to the airport so Bella (our pup) had to spend 2 1/2 hrs in her crate. This is not the first time going into her crate (she sleeps there and stays in it when we are eating and even when she just wants to get away from the kids for a bit) but it is the first time we have left her alone. We went from one accident yesterday to 4 piddles in the first hour since we got home and I don't know how many since. She is now on her leash playing with her squeaky toy beside me. No one can tell me that she is "just having an accident". She is pissed! (Yes pun was intended!) So to jamiesuzanne as a mom I say go with your gut! If you think something is wrong get professional advice.


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## RonE

> No one can tell me that she is "just having an accident".


Nope, it's not an accident. You've had her a week and she's not housebroken.

But, yes, by all means, get professional advice. Nobody's going to argue with that, but hardly anybody ever does it.


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## Love's_Sophie

Bella5 said:


> I don't care what all of you guys say. We've only had our puppy for a week and she has been awesome to train to go outside. Until today. We had to take my mom back to the airport so Bella (our pup) had to spend 2 1/2 hrs in her crate. This is not the first time going into her crate (she sleeps there and stays in it when we are eating and even when she just wants to get away from the kids for a bit) but it is the first time we have left her alone. We went from one accident yesterday to 4 piddles in the first hour since we got home and I don't know how many since. She is now on her leash playing with her squeaky toy beside me. No one can tell me that she is "just having an accident". She is pissed! (Yes pun was intended!) So to jamiesuzanne as a mom I say go with your gut! If you think something is wrong get professional advice.


A puppy that is piddling that often may be experiencing a UTI...take her to the vet...don't 'assume' that she is ticked off at you. 

It may not be that she was 'mad' either, but that she was just plain scared and nervous...you said it was the first time she was alone? Next time try leaving on a television, or stereo, and see how she is when you get home then...she may be calmer, because she won't feel so 'estranged and lonely'.

Puppies, when they are really little, too, once they piddle once, can just 'stick' to the habit...it's not that they are angry, or upset, or frustrated...just 'convenient', especially if they get a fresh absorbent towel each time they piddle. Sometimes taking the towel or 'bed' away once or twice can make pottying in the crate less convenient and 'desireable' and they relearn to hold it like they previously did. We went through this alot with our youngest dog; he just refused to potty\crate train, and he was a very happy puppy...just didn't want to potty train. 

as a side I hate when people think their dogs think like humans...yes, they experience 'some' range of emotions that we do, but definitely not in the same aspect that we do, and not in the aspect that this thread is talking about! Dogs are not capable of 'vengeful' thinking...unless of course you are talking about vengence that takes place within 3 seconds of the offences!!


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## Gates1026

Bella5 said:


> This is not the first time going into her crate (she sleeps there and stays in it when we are eating and even when she just wants to get away from the kids for a bit) but it is the first time we have left her alone.


My guess would be that perhaps your puppy was either anxious from being left home for the first time alone or was overly excited when you got home. Both of these reactions are quite normal for a new puppy and neither of them require the dog to be "pissed".

Love's_Sophie - you beat me to it!!!


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## Elana55

Gosh Bella5.. When you have a 2 year old who has gone for a whole week not doing anything in his diaper and then on day 8 you take away his crayons cuz he was heading for the living room wall with that purposeful look in his eye.. 

and then he suddenly poos or pees his diaper I guess you are going to assume he is doing this because you took away his crayons.... and he is going to show you cuz he is MAD....

...not because he is 2 and not toilet trained yet? 

Talk about Tough Love....


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## Elana55

I looked this up and have an excerpt for your reading pleasure.

Quoting Patricia B Mc Connell, PhD., (Animal Behaviorist) from her book "The Other End of the Leash" (from the subtitle 'Packmates')

"I'm using anthropomorphic examples here to bring home a point, although there's a danger of misinterpreting your dog's behavior by putting yourself in your dog's place. A dog owner who assumes that his dog defecated in the living room because she's "mad" at him for leaving her alone during the day is forgetting that dogs are fascinated by feces. Dogs spend long periods of time checking out poop, sniffing it, and sometimes eating it. The Navajo word for dog is something like "thlee Shaw" and means "eater of horse poop." It makes no sense that your dog would offer you such a wonderful present if she were mad at you. *Some people think that their dog is defecating on the rug to spite them, so they yell at the dog, perhaps rubbing her nose in it or, worse, physically harming her. Dogs who are treated this way cower in terror (not guilt) when their owners return home but are much more likely to defecate on the rug out of nervousness or fear in the house, because who knows what that maniac will do next time he comes home.* (empahsis added by poster)

This is very much the same message in Jean Donaldson's book, "Culture Clash" on the same subject, tho I believe she also includes pee.. and dogs ARE fascinated with pee and Poop! 

I realize I am just a poster on an internet forum and that alone is likely to garner any advice I offer little respect. However, when two well known and respected animal behaviorists say the same thing, I think it is worth noting. 

Dogs do not pee or poop in the house out of vengence, anger or because they hold a residual grudge. Dogs are simply NOT that sophisticated (nor are MOST toddler children!). 

Dogs pee or poop in the house because: a) they were not trained to pee or to poop outside OR b) they are being asked for too much too soon as babies.


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## Dogsareme

Very good advice with references to boot!! 

Hopefully the point is understood now.


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## rvamutt

Bella5 said:


> I don't care what all of you guys say. We've only had our puppy for a week and she has been awesome to train to go outside. Until today. We had to take my mom back to the airport so Bella (our pup) had to spend 2 1/2 hrs in her crate. This is not the first time going into her crate (she sleeps there and stays in it when we are eating and even when she just wants to get away from the kids for a bit) but it is the first time we have left her alone. We went from one accident yesterday to 4 piddles in the first hour since we got home and I don't know how many since. She is now on her leash playing with her squeaky toy beside me. No one can tell me that she is "just having an accident". She is pissed! (Yes pun was intended!) So to jamiesuzanne as a mom I say go with your gut! If you think something is wrong get professional advice.


People like this...If you are seriously going to ignore 99% of the people on this bored, every modern book, article or study, and just about every trainer and behaviorist just because you "know" he is doing this to spite you then please get rid of your dog. This is the kind of person that hits their dog when it makes a mess instead of crating it next time ("he knows he isn't supposed to because he looks guilty". I've got a neighbor that when his dog pees in the house he rubs her face in it and then ties it out in the front yard for 1/2 an hour to teach it. Stories like this are why I have more faith in dogs than humans.


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## jamiesuzanne

Ok, so I'm convinced that this whole ordeal was just a fluke thing, because after those few times, it never happened again.

But now, we're facing some totally new issues. I swear, if it's not one thing w/ my dog, it's another.

We watched our neighbor's min-pin for a week and a half, and Copper started pooping in his cage while we had that dog...so I just chalked it up to him being confused at the presence of a new dog, and figured it would stop once the dog went home. Copper never pooped in his cage before, and only piddled from time to time if I was gone too long and took too long getting his leash on.

I have him in a very large crate. He's a small dog, but the crate is big enough for a lab or something of equal size. Copper would cry and whine ALLLLLL day long when I kept in him a small crate, so the big one seemed to solve the problem. I put his doggy bed in the back, and he was really good for the first 2 months or so until we watched this other dog. At one point, I actually found some poop smashed under the doggy bed, which meant he had moved it out fo the way to poop, and then covered it back up. 

So some may argue that the size of the cage is the issue, but as I said, he never went potty in there before, ever. 

So we finally sent the other dog home, but now Copper still poops in the cage, and then actually pushes it out onto the floor (since he's in a wire crate). He's done this probably 4 or 5 times over the past week, but aboslutely nothing in his routine has changed. He still goes out at the same times, still eats at the same times, etc. 

I have no idea how to break him of this, because obviously I'm not at home to deal w/ it when it's happening.

Why does my dog have so many problems? I love my dog but I'm SO fed up with him that I can hardly stand it. I feel like I'm mad at him more than happy w/ him anymore these days.

I'm just at a loss here. His other training is going SO well (I've been working on a lot of things w/ him, and he's doing great!) but this one issue just keeps coming up in a variety of different kinds of circumstances.

HELP!


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## Cheetah

When he has pooped in the crate, what cleaner are you using to clean it up? Also, I may have missed this, but what is the age of the dog?


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## TooneyDogs

You'll need to change to an appropriate sized crate. If you continue using the old one, the problem will not go away. Are you feeding one meal a day..when you get home from work? You have to restrict the food and the water. Most dogs have to poop about an hour after eating but, for dogs with slow metabolisms it may be several hours later and everything depends on how much exercise they get right after eating. About an hour walk after eating is customary to get the everything moving. 
So, how to teach the potty training? Here's what we I've done with the 14 dogs that I've owned. They were all taught in one weekend (well, truthfully, I had one that didn't catch on very quick). I make it my 'mission in life' for 2 or 3 days....I literally follow the puppy around the house when they are awake never, ever letting them out of my sight. It is crucial that we catch them BEFORE they relieve themselves. If they are already going it's too late because they get rewarded (bladder/bowel relief...huge rewards) for going in the house. They are immediately shown where the right potty area is and praised profusely for going there. 
And, yes, all of these dogs had to endure 9 hours of confinement while at work. Certainly there were ocassional accidents but, if they are exercised early and the food restricted, they will normally sleep the rest of the day if undisturbed.
For me, it's worth giving up a weekend or a long weekend to do this training and yes, I make it very, very clear at the 1st hint of a squat that it's wrong.
I hand clap, stomp my foot, yell NO!, bull rush them and hustle them toward the door.


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## jamiesuzanne

Copper is around 15 months old, at least based on the age they guessed him to be at the shelter I got him from.

The time he pooped under his doggy bed, I cleaned the bottom of the cage out in the bathtub using dish soap. We clean the carpets w/ Woolite that's made for pet odors/stains.

And yes, I'm feeding him once a day, in the evening when I get home from work. I don't have enough time in the mornings to feed him and then wait around for him to go potty again, so I just give him a little water and that's all.


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## Elana55

Well, you have one answer (smaller crate). 

The other answer is a differnt cleaner. You need to use 'nature's Miracle' or another such Enzyme Cleaner. You can get it at PetSmart or you can Get it at Omaha Vaccine on line. 

What it does is break down the doggy doo and pee smell so they don't get the idea it is OK to pee or poo there cuz it still smells "right."

Been there and done that with dish soap, chlorox, woolite.. Oh I have quite a list. LOL


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## jamiesuzanne

I use to use Nature's Miracle, when I first got the dog. We figured it wasn't really working at getting rid of the smells, because the dogs were still peeing all over the place, but it was probably more the issue of the dogs getting use to eachother and just marking their territory.

It's just SOOOOO incredibly frustrating, because I have had multiple dogs in my lifetime and NEVER had issues like this. We never crated our dogs (they just knew where they could and couldn't go) and they never pottied inside except for one incident where one of them got bad diarrheah in the middle of the night. They were such good dogs. 

I'm seriously ready to start over w/ a new dog, cuz I'm sick of this.


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## Westhighlander

jamiesuzanne said:


> I'm seriously ready to start over w/ a new dog, cuz I'm sick of this.


If you give the dog back, please don't get another one. You won't be fustrated again and another dog in this world will not be treated like merchandise that can be returned to the store.


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## Bella5

rvamutt said:


> People like this...If you are seriously going to ignore 99% of the people on this bored, every modern book, article or study, and just about every trainer and behaviorist just because you "know" he is doing this to spite you then please get rid of your dog. This is the kind of person that hits their dog when it makes a mess instead of crating it next time ("he knows he isn't supposed to because he looks guilty". I've got a neighbor that when his dog pees in the house he rubs her face in it and then ties it out in the front yard for 1/2 an hour to teach it. Stories like this are why I have more faith in dogs than humans.


How dare you say that hit my dog!!! I Where did I say that I punished her for any of it???? All I did was send her outside everytime she did it so that she would associate peeing with going outside (plus so that I could clean it up). I ended up putting her on her leash so that I could keep a better eye on her, not to punish her. Should I have crated her? That seems cruel to me. I appreciate Gates1026 idea that maybe she was just scared and was overly excited that we were home - thanks for your suggestions. I'd also like to say that it hasn't happened again and that was 2 months ago now so yeah maybe I was wrong but isn't that what forums like these are for?? But no both jamiesuzzane and I are being told that we don't deserve to be pet owners!! So if I complain about my kids and say that I am at the end of my rope should someone take them away too? Get a grip!!! People that don't care about their dogs tend NOT TO JOIN FORUMS!!!!!


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## Elana55

Bella5:

I did not see where rvamutt suggested YOU hit your dog (he mentioned his neighbor?) and I believe that Jamiesuzanne is the one who brought up getting rid of her dog and replacing it with a different dog (and for the problem stated, that is not the answer as the problem is common to the business of housebreaking). 

Actually, I never thought you hit your dog, but your over defensive stance now makes me wonder about that? 

Mostly what I truly questin is not you or the OP's fitness to HAVE a dog, but the inability to understand that dogs do not hold grudges, get mad and get even and all the rest. Those are human things and dogs are dogs and humans are humans and human kids are not dogs and dogs are not human kids. 

When we anthropomorphise dog behaviors, especially behaviors we don't want, we do a great disservice not only to ourselves but to our dogs. Real dogs are not the ones as portrayed on TV with human thoughts, human language in their minds and human emotions such as stubborn, vindictive etc.


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## Bella5

Okay, the only reason I posted what I said originally was to let jamiesuzzane know that they are not alone. You guys all told her do this or do that without always listening to what she was saying and this had just happened with my puppy so 
i wanted to say hey, I feel for ya look what happened to me. When I said that Bella was "pissed" at me it was more for the pun. Yes, upset would have been a better word to use but we though it was kinda cute. Yes it was frustrating to have to clean up a mess every 5 mins - I'm not kidding about the 5 mins, where does she get all the pee?? but we were NOT MAD. She was definitely "upset" or "out of sorts" for a few hours that night but for all of you to imply that I am a bad owner is ridiculous! For one little post you are all reading WAY too much into it, and yes rvamutt said, "This is the kind of person that hits your dog", and "Please get rid of your dog". So I got upset? Hell yes! But now I'm "overly defensive" and therefore guilty? Huh? And when did I say that a dog holds a grudge? Relax, I can assure you all that I have the best of intentions with my dog, we love her dearly but know that she is, in fact, a dog.


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## Elana55

It sure can be frustrating when a dog does pee on the floor that much!

Your explanation is understood (now). Sorry for the misinterpretation.. 

There are a lot of people who SO believe dogs hold grudges, get angry, do things to spite their owners etc. and as a result of people holding these views, there is a lot of dog abuse and I think we all want to abbreviate abuse of dogs. Some of the ways dogs have been treated in the past and even today can be pretty atrocious. 
Those of us who are, or who have worked in shelters or rescues see it first hand to this day. 

Keeping that in mind, I think we all can get a bit testy if we get the sense from words in a post on a forum seem to be pointing to that direction. 

so, now that is all cleared up, how is your dog doing? 
And, BTW, it seems when a dog is peeing they can have gallons and man..if they get loose poop.. well, we know how much goes IN the dog cuz we feed them.. but just look how much can come out the other end! Do they have a secret pouch for extra or something?????


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## Bella5

Thanks, I appreciate it and agree completely with you. Having rescued a 100 lb severly abused dog ourselves, I think that's why I got so offended to begin with.

Bella is doing great, my three kids are remembering to pick up their toys now so that Bella doesn't chew them, it's fantastic! hehehe! Seriously though it had been a few years since we had a dog (Copper went to the "big farm in the sky 4 years ago) and I forgot just how wonderful it is to have one. She fits right in and I think that my 3 year old and her get along the best because they seem to be the same "age". They're great buddies! She is sooo smart, I can't believe how easy it has been to train her.

Have a good one!!


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## jamiesuzanne

Just to clarify...

I am NOT getting rid of my dog. I was simply saying that I was so frustrated with him that I was ready to throw in the towel, but I didn't actually say I was going to do it.

Believe me, every time the thought really crossed my mind, I felt bad about it. I love my dog.

But he has been a lot better lately, it seems those incidents were rather isolated.


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## poodleholic

> And yes, I'm feeding him once a day, in the evening when I get home from work. I don't have enough time in the mornings to feed him and then wait around for him to go potty again, so I just give him a little water and that's all.


This may well be _part_ of the problem, because being fed once a day does not work as well as twice a day to keep a dog regular (as in when they have to poop). I keep my dogs on a feeding and exercise schedule, and can tell you almost to the minute when each one will have to poop. I live by myself, so I need to know, so I can get home in time. When I started work at 8:00am, I got up at 5:00 am, so my dogs could eat, and get in some exercise. Morning meals were always dry kibble, because it takes longer to digest, and they could wait until I got home. The getting up earlier was to see to their needs, and to make sure that they eliminated the previous day's dinner. 

I've had dogs of my own over a span of 55+ years, plus fostered many more. I can tell you that dogs do not pee or poop in the house out of defiance, or to piss you off. They do it because they have to go, and, they do not have a clear understanding that the house is off limits for peeing and pooping. I've had dogs who seemed to have come already housetrained, and dogs who took longer to learn. Those dogs I tethered to me while they were out've the crate, so I could tell by their body language they had to go and could rush them outside. I know it's frustrating, but take a deep breath and relax. Go back to square one and pretend you just got the dog, and you're just starting to housetrain. Be consistent, persistent, and patient in your training. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised in a short period of time.


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## kittywings

I know this is an old thread, but my dog is having a very similar issue and no one seems to address it. I know that dog's supposedly don't purposely pee inside out of anger, but I honestly cannot think of another reason because my dog, a golden retriever who is 1 year and 9 months old ONLY pees inside when he's "mad." 

I WILL say that although he was very quick about picking up most of his training, potty training was his worst subject. We followed everything that it says to do, we always praise him when he goes outside, we never punish him when we don't catch him in the act, even when we do catch him in the act his "punishment" consists of saying "no" loudly and then escorting him outside. Normally, he barks at the door when he wants to go out and we don't have any issues. 

Sometimes, however, he goes "mental" and if we are not paying enough attention to him (by his standards), or getting his ball for him when he's purposely put it under the couch/table (and yes, it IS purposely... if we give him a ball and leave for a few hours, he still has it when we get back but if we're there, it's under the couch/coffee table every two seconds and he has a hissy fit until you get it out for him) he'll walk a few feet away from you and then pee on the floor looking right at you. He just did it again tonight and luckily I caught him in the act... though I didn't surprise him enough to make him stop peeing because there's a nice trail from the original pee spot to the top of the stairs. I really don't know how to handle it. We run him everyday (sometimes twice if he's particularly energetic) in the parks by our house (and yes, we mix it up so it's not the same run everyday) because if we don't, he's an a-hole. We never hit or punish him (except the occasional roll him over on his back to show who's dominant, etc. if he's being a jerk). My family has always had dogs and I will admit that this is the first time having one "on my own" (me and my husband), but even my parents (who have trained many dogs) say that he is a very sweet dog but he is stubborn as hell. 
It's so bizarre because we have so many people at the park tell us how well behaved he is off the leash and he's very friendly with everyone: adults, kids, dogs, cats... but this "angry" peeing is driving me nuts! It won't happen for months and then he'll do it 2-3x in one week, then nothing for months again. And it's ALWAYS when he's being a ******bag and we're not giving in (like it says in the training books).


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## myminpins

I know it's old but hopefully the issue has been taken care of. I believe one of the reasons she had such difficulties is that it was a toy dog. Toy dogs are notoriously more difficult to potty train than "regular" sized dogs.


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## pamperedpups

kittywings - What do you bet that if the ball rolls under something when you're not there your dog just gets it himself? Or maybe he just doesn't play with the ball much when he's alone. One thing that's for sure is that he has trained you to get it for him when you are there by making a fuss until you do it. His reward is getting you in on the game and getting some attention (even if you're not happy about it). How about redirecting the dog with another toy and just getting the ball and putting it up when it rolls under something? You might also try waiting him out every time until the antics stop before you get the ball for him, or only playing with that ball in places where it cannot roll under things the dog can't get under himself.

As for surprising your dog enough to get him to stop peeing, good luck! I know I can't stop usually once I start even if I'm startled. Heck, sometimes when I'm startled it makes me need to go more! LOL Your dog doesn't sound like an "a-hole," "****** bag," or even mad; he actually sounds very intelligent and full of energy. He doesn't need to be rolled on his back and really shouldn't be even when he's "being a jerk" because alpha rolls are dangerous and generally cause more harm than good to a dog's psyche. We humans can't roll a dog the same way a dog can roll a dog so our meaning is lost in translation. I'm sure if you really think about it you don't really want to "dominate" your dog anyway and you shouldn't have to in order to live happily with him.

To me it sounds like your puppy has simply been granted more freedom than he's ready for. I suggest more crate or puppy proofed room time when you can't watch him, and more supervised play when you can watch him.


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## kittywings

I guess I could be a little more clear: we used to get the ball for him, but because he puts it under the couch/table every two seconds we stopped doing it until he calms down. If he was able to get it, he would... here's what happens: he's chewing on his ball, he moves to a place where it can easily go under something it either goes under on "it's own" or he PUSHES it under and he starts to cry, then he comes up to us and cries. When we ignore him, he goes back to it and cries more and freaks out trying to get it out from underneath (he goes at it pretty hardcore- you wouldn't think a dog of his size could be that flat to the ground). When this doesn't work, he starts barking this really high pitched sharp bark that makes you have to plug your ears. We still ignore it. Sometimes we'll get the ball and put it away at this point (he never gets the ball at this point because we don't want to reward his brattiness), sometimes he'll calm down after we put it away. Sometimes he goes back to where it was and looks under to make sure it's gone. Even if you get another ball for him (to distract him from the 1st ball under the couch), he'll put that under after 2 seconds and freak out until there are no balls under the couch/table. It's when he's in this "mood" that he'll go onto the carpet, look right at you and pee. This is the only time he'll do it, when he's been throwing some kind of tantrum. Also, I HIGHLY doubt that he just doesn't play with the balls when he's left alone with them... he's OBSESSED with balls. You can take him for a walk with no leash (not that we do) if you have a ball it's like an invisible leash on him.
Another time he had a tantrum-based "accident" was when my husband and I were in our bedroom with him and he was being a brat (he had just come in from outside), so we put him outside our room and shut the door for about 5-10 minutes so we didn't have to deal with him. Well, it sounded as if someone was trying to knock down the door with a battering ram, but we ignored it then once we didn't hear anything, my husband opened the door and said "WHAT ON EARTH?!!" The dog had peed AND pooed right in front of our door! Two nights later, I was making our bed and he was being a bit of a jerk, trying to get on the bed, etc. and I had to tell him "NO" a few times, he walked into the other room and all of a sudden I smelled something and he had peed and pooed in a different spot, but not TOO far from the other area. 

What I don't get is that he normally barks at the door to go out, or gets our attention and walks in that direction, if he has to go. We can leave him in the house alone for hours and he has no issues, he ONLY goes to the bathroom inside when he's being a brat.

I just don't understand it... I've followed all potty training recommendations to the letter, but he just doesn't get it. He picked up everything else so quickly! I'm starting to think that he must have us bugged, because any time that we say either to each other or friends/family that he's really mellowing out, etc. he pulls some sort of stunt immediately after it's said!


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## Cheetah

It sounds to me like he gets stressed out by the whole thing and just can't hold his pee. But that's just me... I don't believe animals do things out of spite - they are innocent creatures and it's not fair to put such terrible human emotions on them as spite, anger, revenge, etc.


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## kittywings

Well, you might think differently if you saw the "crazy" in his eyes!
 lol


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## decker070

Kittywings, it's been awhile since the last update on this thread... I'm just wondering how it's going... Has the issue subsided? In what ways have you dealt with the issue?


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## danielwhite0

Shalva said:


> OK stop.....
> 
> Dogs do not Pee to piss people off (no pun intended... ok maybe a little)
> 
> they do not use bodily functions as defiance.....
> 
> Your dog does not understand the housebreaking and the fact that he was standing in front of you looking at you probably just means that in his little dog brain he was telling you he had to go out..... if you could be dog psychic you could probably hear in his brain him saying (gotta pee gotta pee, oops peed)....
> 
> its NOT DEFIANCE for the 5th time.... its a puppy that is unclear of the rules.....
> 
> I had the same experience just last week with my six month old.... he had been excellent .... totally housebroken.... and the more secure we get in the fact that we THINK they are housebroken the less we pay attention to those very subtle cues that previously would of had us rushing the puppy outside.....
> 
> You need to take a step backwards and reinforce what he already knows.
> 
> puppies are just that puppies.... I am constantly reminding my puppy people that their 8 mos. old puppy has been alive for 240 total days...... think of all your puppy has learned in 240 days..... shoot it takes most people significantly longer than that to learn to use the toilet...... and be housebroken......
> 
> take a step backwards.... pretend your pup is little again..... or has just come home.... and stop putting human feelings onto your dog....(anthropomophizing) your dog is not human.... they are not scooby doo.... they are not spiteful or defiant..... they are dogs.... who want to please you and the fact that he was looking at you to me only says that he did want to please you..... and you couldn't read the communication.....
> 
> take a step backwards.... calm down..... and get back to work reinforcing the housebreaking.
> 
> s


Sorry but your idea that all dogs do not retain the mental capacity to pee or defecate as a way of telling the master he/she is not happy about something is entirely wrong. Many dogs indeed do have more than enough brains to figure out that peeing/defecating will conjure up attention. Your dog may go to the bathroom inside as a way of getting your attention (although a very negative way of going about it) because he/she is upset about something or if they feel as though they have been mistreated in some way. I have a pure bread beagle. She is extremely smart for a beagle and picks up on social cues, words, phrases ect. She can even sense when my wife or I do not feel good. My wife has RA and when she gets a flare up Phoebe will smell the exact spot where the flare up is and proceeds to comfort my wife. She knows when I am mad, happy, tired, lazy ect. I am not saying this because I am some proud dog owner my dog is incredibly smart and intuitive. From birth to the present she has never peed or pooped in her crate. She peed a few times in the house the first couple of weeks we got her at six weeks. That's it! After about five months I could Phoebe was not the typical dog in terms of intelligence. I might add I grew up with many dogs ever since I was a baby. I have always had a dog... Anyway I was so convinced that Phoebe had above average intelligence when she came running to my office and grasped my long sleeve shirt. I was confused at first but I understood quickly that she wanted me to follow her and so I did. She lead me in a hurry to the sun porch. My wife was laying on the couch and looked as if she were sleeping. However I knew Phoebe wouldn't have brought me outside for nothing, my wife takes naps out on the porch all the time. So I tried to wake my wife but she wouldn't wake up. I of course called 911 immediately; I found out later that day that she had a grand mal seizure. She had never had these before. My dog is not trained in spotting seizures or anything else. However she is very much in tune with her masters. As we are with her. Back to my main point here, sorry for going on and on... Phoebe after about a year when I opened up my business down town (prior place of business was out of our house) would start peeing right in front of me. She would never go all out and empty her bladder but just a little puddle right in front of me no matter where I was in the house. She would only do this when I had to leave her in the crate for around six hours while I was at work. My wife also works and is not at home during the day. So she started doing this about 3 days into me working most the day. I could tell she was upset at me even before she would pee in front of me. She had a very distinct glare, sort of a sad but upset puppy stare. She acts very differently when she feels like shes been abandoned for most the day. To her it must seem like an eternity. I mind you she had never had to stay in her crate for more than an hour or two before. So staying in her crate with no one around for six hours was rough on her at first. So her only way of telling me she was unhappy other than the glare and growling was to pee in front of me and then run away with her tail between her legs. SO she knows full well that this was unacceptable, that it was wrong! It was without a doubt 100% on purpose and because she was upset about having to spend to her what must seem like an unusually long period of time in the crate while I worked. After about a week she stopped doing this and I'll tell you why. Every time after I got home she would do this for about a week and every-time I would spank her on the bottom. Not hard enough to hurt her but only to let her know that peeing on the floor would illicit an not so enjoyable paddling of the butt. After about 5-7 days she stopped entirely. Nothing else was changed and no others methods of dealing with this issue was used. It's rather simple; The bottom line is YES that some dogs do retain without a doubt the intellect to use the bathroom indoors on purpose as a form of defiance. Don't let people such as the one quoted above tell you otherwise. To think your dog stupid is to do him/her an injustice and I'll tell you why; If you chalk these incidents up to nothing more than your dog not understanding where the bathroom is especially after already being potty trained and furthermore having a relatively good record of not using the bathroom inside then you may miss the fact that your dog is quite upset with something he/she believes you've done to them. If you miss this fact then you won't be able to properly deal with the situation but your also not communicating with your dog as you should be. Instead you'll be pointing out the fact that the master is a slow learner and just doesn't quite catch on. This will only serve to further the bad behavior. You need to acknowledge your dog but be firm with him/her. If you don't want to use a physical means to show your dog that what they are doing will not be tolerated then you'll have to find another way that works. I should mention that a paddle on the behind is not abuse in any way. Don't let people tell you otherwise... You need to show your pet who owns the house. Is it your pet or you? This doesn't mean you should take what they do personally... that would be ridiculous considering they are after all not nearly as smart as you, or so I should hope not =-) You want to have enough respect for your pet and show him/her you understand that they are unhappy and sometimes yes ticked off but that they need to show you this in some other way than peeing or pooping inside. Phoebe now shows me when she is upset by growling at me instead. Not in a menacing way but in a way that show's me shes upset or that something is wrong. I acknowledge her and then let her show me what she wants. Sometimes its just playing, food, or a walk that she wants. Again I just want to point out that treating your pets (especially dogs) as though they have a pea size brain is not a good way to win your pets affection; It will only serve to enlarge the communication gap between the two of you. Not to mention its a little insulting to your pet =-)


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## RonE

That was an impressive block of text in response to someone who hasn't been on the forum for four years.

Next time, try a little white space so we can actually read it.


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## danielwhite0

RonE said:


> That was an impressive block of text in response to someone who hasn't been on the forum for four years.
> 
> Next time, try a little white space so we can actually read it.


That impressive block of text was intended for everyone, not just the person I replied to. A forum is meant for all to see and comment on. I see you've learned well the comment part... Anything more enlightening to share?


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## puppy123

After fostering several puppies and adopting my last foster puppy, I firmly believe that housebroken dogs can purposely pee or poo in the house out of SPITE.

I have had my current dog for several months. He has been very obedient and completely housebroken; he had never peed or pooped in the house until today, and I believe 100% that it is out of spite. My dog is a picky eater. I usually cook for him, and he lovesss his homemade dog food. However, today, I ran out of homemade dog food, did not have time to make some, and gave him some commercial kibble instead. He gave me a dirty look and refused to eat for a while. When he finally ate some, he was so upset that he deliberately went upstairs to look for me in the living room and peed right in front of me, right in the middle of the living room. SPITE is the only explanation for this behavior.


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## danielwhite0

puppy123 said:


> After fostering several puppies and adopting my last foster puppy, I firmly believe that housebroken dogs can purposely pee or poo in the house out of SPITE.
> 
> I have had my current dog for several months. He has been very obedient and completely housebroken; he had never peed or pooped in the house until today, and I believe 100% that it is out of spite. My dog is a picky eater. I usually cook for him, and he lovesss his homemade dog food. However, today, I ran out of homemade dog food, did not have time to make some, and gave him some commercial kibble instead. He gave me a dirty look and refused to eat for a while. When he finally ate some, he was so upset that he deliberately went upstairs to look for me in the living room and peed right in front of me, right in the middle of the living room. SPITE is the only explanation for this behavior.


Sounds like one little intelligent but sassy pup=-) I know it can be annoying at first but because we have such bright dogs we'll have to teach them appropriately that this behavior is not ok. I do believe in your case this was indeed spite. However I just wanted to make sure we all know how to differentiate between spite and the possibility of a bladder or fecal medical problem as well. I just don't want any sick pups getting punished for being sick. As I said before though it does sound like he was a little PO'ed. I would suggest to either make sure you don't run out of the homemade goodness again or to train the beast that he/she won't ALWAYS have his/her way. This is what I've done when Phoebe was acting out as I mentioned in my previous post. I did not reward her with giving her what she wanted (which is why she was acting out) I would take w/e it was she wanted away and put her in a crate for a half hour (just long enough for her to get the point and to figure out that acting out would lead to nowhere but her crate lol =-) However their are many other techniques that work well and can be found on this forum or basically all over the internet. Hope this helps, peace man


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## zeronightfarm

danielwhite0 said:


> That impressive block of text was intended for everyone, not just the person I replied to. A forum is meant for all to see and comment on. I see you've learned well the comment part... Anything more enlightening to share?


That "everyone." is going to be no one, because no one can read it. 

Why not just start your own thread insted of digging up a post that is from 2008? Now people are going to have to dig through several old irrelivant pages to get to any thing new.


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## zeronightfarm

Dogs can not spite.


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## cshellenberger

danielwhite0 said:


> That impressive block of text was intended for everyone, not just the person I replied to. A forum is meant for all to see and comment on. I see you've learned well the comment part... Anything more enlightening to share?


You're responding to a Moderator, generally when a mod askes you to do something on a forum you pay attention. You need to read the rules especailly this...

Members should post in a way which is consistent with_ "normal writing"._


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## cshellenberger

zeronightfarm said:


> That "everyone." is going to be no one, because no one can read it.
> 
> Why not just start your own thread insted of digging up a post that is from 2008? Now people are going to have to dig through several old irrelivant pages to get to any thing new.


 
Members are asked to not act as "back seat moderators". If members note any violation of the rules and Terms of Service they are to use the report function available on the board. If no action is taken in 6 hours they are welcome to bring it to the attention of a member of the Moderator Team via PM, only do this if a moderator team member has not replied within 6 hours. Members who consistently "act" as moderators may be warned, issued infractions or banned.


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