# Need help with what appears to be SA



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Gracie turned 10 months odl today. After about 1 month of her seeming to be okay in her crate, she has gone back to freaking out. Here is what we have tried/what you may need to know:


Putting her in the crate while we are home for a couple of hours at a time.
Ignoring her fracntic barking/whining while in the crate
Refusing to let her out until she calms down
Making her crate smaller (with the divider) so she is less likely to pee in her crate
We have tried Kongs filled with peanut butter, but those only keep her calm for the time she is working on them, then she freaks out again. We have not given her a Kong in a couple of months because she stopped eating and I thought she could do without the excess sugar.
She gets one walk a day (evening). Usually about 2 miles or so. I already get up at 5 to get ready for work, so I can't get up any earlier to exercise her. I do work on training, fetch, etc. in the morning when we have some time. She also gets play/training time a lot at home.
She sleeps in our bedroom--not in the bed. She has a small crate she chooses to sleep in (so this isn't crate anxiety--she loves her crate, hates being alone).
When she did sleep in her crate, she would sleep for about 4 hours and then wake up barking. She was in another room in the house.
She is on melatonin (3 mg) once a day (before I leave for work).
When I get home, it is obvious she has been freaking out--she is panting, whining and pacing.

When we were gone Thanksgiving for like 3 hours, she managed to destroy the dog bed in her crate-and it was her favorite bed. She has destroyed my sweatshirt in the last couple of months as well (when I didn't get up fast enough in her opinion to play with her).

We started letting her sleep out of her crate when she was nine months old hoping that it would help if she had the night out, but it may be making things worse. 

Loki had issues with destructive behaviors when he was younger, but he got over it. Gracie, however, seems to be getting worse and worse. She does freak out when I get keys, shoes, etc.

I have never had a dog with SA and I feel overwhelmed. We have done everything right by her (training, socilaization, everything that we could think of) and she is still a major mess. I feel like a failure...she is so panicked while we are gone...I know she barks for hours, tears up her blankets--everything. I can't leave her out because that behavior would then be focused on my couch or worse--she could really hurt herself.

I know that many of you have dogs with SA...can you please help me figure out what to do? I am at a loss and feel like I have failed her.

Thanks.

Edit: I can put her in a down saty and leave the room and she will (90% of the time) stay until I come back. She does, however, love to follow me around the house...just me. If hubby is home, she will not follow hime (unless I am not here).


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Is she okay to be left alone outside of her crate? Or does she panic no matter where she is if she's alone?

If it's just the crate, I would suggest that you're crating her too much before she's ready for it. I would restrict her to a dog proof room while you're at work, and instead of crating her for hours at a time, time how long it takes for her to go into a panic, and start out crating her for LESS time than it takes for her to panic. Even if it takes one minute, and that's only because she's focused on a high value treat (like a Kong), let her out before that minute is up. Never let her panic in her crate, every negative experience she has reinforces her anxiety. Slowly work your way up in length of time she spends in the crate, until eventually she can be crated for hours without panicking. I'd also feed her every meal in her crate, send her to the crate for every chew or treat dispensing toy she gets, give her training treats for being good in the crate, and generally make the crate an awesome place for her to be.

If she's okay with being in the crate while you're around, I'd practice something similar to what I said above, but instead of increasing the length of time she's in the crate, increase your distance from the crate. Grab a book or a laptop or some laundry that needs folding, and sit down right in front of her crate and ignore her. The next day, move a foot away and repeat. Eventually make it to where you're in the same room, but partially obscured, such as being half behind a chair. Then work your way out of the room altogether. Remember not to go too fast so that she panics. Continue with the high value chews and treat dispensing toys to keep her distracted. 

If it really is full blown SA, though, I would recommend reading Darkmoon's post about SA. 

Another thing you might want to try is a DAP diffuser and tryptophan supplements. I would also like to mention that melatonin doesn't work for every dog. Whenever I give Basil melatonin, he gets VERY hyper. It might be worth it to give her some melatonin while you're home for the day so you can observe her behavior.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks for all the advice.

She doesn't appear to have a problem with the crate. In fact, if it is open, she will wander in and out of it, if I give her a bully stick, she will run into the crate first. If I say "Gracie, crate" she goes running in and lays down. She sleeps in a crate at night by her own choosing. BUT if she thinks we are leaving, she doesn't like it so much. Let me rephrase--if she thinks I am leaving, it is trouble. If I pick up my keys, she is a mess, but, if hubby picks up his and leaves, she couldn't care less.

I would love to put her in a "dog proof" room, but we really don't have anything condusive to that right now. Our house has a very open floor plan and there are no true areas to block off except an upstairs bathroom, which is where she gets her baths, so she already doesn't like that room much. All other rooms have furniture in them and she loves to tear things up. Our basement is unfinished, but full of random crap, so putting her down there is unsafe. We are looking to finish it which will open up a spare room upstairs, but that could be months from now. I thought about doggy daycare, but no places around here open early enough to accommodate what we need. I even thought about shutting her in the laundry room, but that space is super tiny and right next to the garage, so that wouldn't be to awesome.

I did try some tryptophan treats before and it seemed to help a little (or she was just used to being alone), but we stopped giving them to her. I can get some more and see if we note an improvement. I am also going to talk to our vet if this doesn't work itself out so that we have other options (like medication if need be).

We have never tried her in a room unsupervised because of the destruction she has shown in the crate (I can't tell you how many blankets she has torn to tiny bits). Today I put her in the bedroom and shut the door, we set the alarm like we were leaving and we waited. She was silent for about 10 minutes and then she whined once, but was quiet again. I let her out as soon as she was silent again as not to push her too much.

If I put her in her crate when I am in the room, she whines for a little while, but settles down and sleeps. The main issue is when she is alone it seems (although right now I am in my office and she is sleeping in the living room with no problem).

We are going to go back to Kings filled with peanut butter for a while and see what happens. We just want her to be happy--and other than this issue, she really is a well behaved dog (except that she doesn't understand the concept of sleeping in). We just hope this works itself out so she doesn't stress so much...and, let's face it, so I don't stress so much


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

If you can afford it, it might be worth it to buy a series of baby gates or an X-pen so that you can confine her to someplace like the kitchen. Otherwise, I recommend two things. First, do the "distance from the crate" training that I spoke about in my previous post. Get her used to being in the crate while you're not around. Second, desensitize her to the things you do to indicate you're leaving, so that she think's they're no big deal and doesn't freak out when you set the alarm or pick up your keys. Do things like set the alarm at random times during the day, and pick up your keys to go to the bathroom, grab your coat/purse and sit down on the couch, etc. etc. The point is to make these actions just normal actions that aren't associated with you leaving.

Also, I'd like to speak about destruction for a moment. When Basil is crated and left alone, he totally freaks out. Last July he had to get a ton of dental work done on his teeth, including one extraction, because he broke his teeth on the crate door. When he's left in the tiny bathroom, he scratches up the door and tears up his pee pads. But when he's left in the living room, he just sits in front of the front door and barks. I'm not sure why, but I think his destructiveness is related to how confined he is. I think being restricted to a small area when he's alone makes him even more anxious. Now, Basil isn't normally very destructive. He doesn't chew on furniture and rarely chews on toys. Only you know what Gracie is like, and what she can handle, but it might be something to think about.

I'm curious, did you try observing her after giving her melatonin? It would be a good idea to make sure that the melatonin is actually making her sleepy rather than increasing her anxiety.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

She didn't get melatonin today and she (once again) peed in her crate after being alone for 7 hours. So defeated. I am getting some supplements and I found a pheramone dispensing collar that I can loop on her crate (out of her reach) and I am going to buy that and give it a try. It had good reviews online, so I figure it can't hurt.

She is destructive. She tears up toys (my house is where dog toys come to die--she managed to destroy a canvas Kong Wubba in a matter of an hour), has ripped up a sweatshirt that was on the ground (at night while we were sleeping...she was not confined), has torn up every blanket we have ever put in her crate, and on Thanksgiving, she ripped a dog bed to pieces. I worry that she will tear something up if she is left alone.

I am going to work on desensitizing her and I am thinking on contacting and animal behaviorist (although that is a lot of money). I have a couple of weeks off at Christmas, but that is three weeks away and I worry about her in the meantime...

I can't help but feel that I did something wrong somewhere to create this--she was a puppy when we got her, so it wasn't like she had been abandoned a million times--she was in a shelter and then foster for a day and then us. Maybe I pushed her too hard in the beginning with the crate...who knows? All I know is that she pees and panicks while we are gone...and she hadn't done that since September (she freaked out a lot in the beginning when I went back to work, but after a few weeks, she was great...no accidents, no frantic behavior when we came home, nothing...she was great.) This anxiousness really set back in a few weeks ago when Hubby had to go out of town early in teh morning and Gracie was in her crate for almost nine hours (usually she is in for like 7-7 1/2)...after that day, she has peed in her crate each day UNLESS someone comes home to let her out.

Other than this one thing, she is so good for us--she is calm (for the most part) when we are home, relatively obedient (for a 10 month old puppy) and sweet as can be--but she hates being alone.

I will look into getting an x-pen and maybe trying that in the bathroom downstairs or something. Anything is better than what we are going through now.

Does it matter that she sleeps in the bedroom with us? Do you think that is creating more of a problem? Her crate is not in the bedroom, it is in the living room (so she has access more often), but we can move it to the bedroom and let her choose to sleep in it as she does the little crate now (too small to be her main crate--she can't even stand up in it, but she loves to lay in it).

I am sorry if I am asking so many questions--I just really want her to be happy and it is obvious that she isn't (and I am not, either, for that matter--this is heartbreaking!)


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

theyogachick said:


> She didn't get melatonin today and she (once again) peed in her crate after being alone for 7 hours. So defeated. I am getting some supplements and I found a pheramone dispensing collar that I can loop on her crate (out of her reach) and I am going to buy that and give it a try. It had good reviews online, so I figure it can't hurt.


Are you referring to D.A.P. (dog appeasing pheromone)? We have a D.A.P. diffuser that plugs into the wall and it works REALLY well. There is definitely a noticeable improvement in Basil's behavior when we use the diffuser. It works really well because it fills the room with the pheromone. I have no idea if a collar type device would work when not worn around the neck.

Here's the D.A.P. diffuser we use, I highly recommend it.



theyogachick said:


> She is destructive. She tears up toys (my house is where dog toys come to die--she managed to destroy a canvas Kong Wubba in a matter of an hour), has ripped up a sweatshirt that was on the ground (at night while we were sleeping...she was not confined), has torn up every blanket we have ever put in her crate, and on Thanksgiving, she ripped a dog bed to pieces. I worry that she will tear something up if she is left alone.


I see, then I agree, it would probably be best not to give her free range of the house.



theyogachick said:


> I am going to work on desensitizing her and I am thinking on contacting and animal behaviorist (although that is a lot of money). I have a couple of weeks off at Christmas, but that is three weeks away and I worry about her in the meantime...


That is a good idea. Another option you could consider, perhaps, is to hire someone to come let her out in the middle of the day until Christmas holiday? Also, you mentioned that there aren't daycares open early enough for your schedule, but I do know of some daycares that provide like a "taxi service," they may be able to pick her up when they open? I've never used such a service before, though, so I'm not clear on all of the details. Might be worth looking into?



theyogachick said:


> I can't help but feel that I did something wrong somewhere to create this--she was a puppy when we got her, so it wasn't like she had been abandoned a million times--she was in a shelter and then foster for a day and then us. Maybe I pushed her too hard in the beginning with the crate...who knows? All I know is that she pees and panicks while we are gone...and she hadn't done that since September (she freaked out a lot in the beginning when I went back to work, but after a few weeks, she was great...no accidents, no frantic behavior when we came home, nothing...she was great.) This anxiousness really set back in a few weeks ago when Hubby had to go out of town early in teh morning and Gracie was in her crate for almost nine hours (usually she is in for like 7-7 1/2)...after that day, she has peed in her crate each day UNLESS someone comes home to let her out.
> 
> Other than this one thing, she is so good for us--she is calm (for the most part) when we are home, relatively obedient (for a 10 month old puppy) and sweet as can be--but she hates being alone.


I can totally sympathize, it's really terribly upsetting to have a dog with SA. But don't blame yourself. For some dogs, it's just a mystery why they develop SA. I'm sure you've done the absolute best that you can. 

I'm wondering, do you think that the stress of the holidays may be contributing to her anxiety? Perhaps you're feeling stressed out, and she's picking up on it, or perhaps there is a lot of activity in your house? Maybe this could be causing the sudden change in her behavior, considering that she was doing better not too long ago.



theyogachick said:


> I will look into getting an x-pen and maybe trying that in the bathroom downstairs or something. Anything is better than what we are going through now.
> 
> Does it matter that she sleeps in the bedroom with us? Do you think that is creating more of a problem? Her crate is not in the bedroom, it is in the living room (so she has access more often), but we can move it to the bedroom and let her choose to sleep in it as she does the little crate now (too small to be her main crate--she can't even stand up in it, but she loves to lay in it).
> 
> I am sorry if I am asking so many questions--I just really want her to be happy and it is obvious that she isn't (and I am not, either, for that matter--this is heartbreaking!)


I don't think that sleeping in your bedroom matters much, unless she's acting excessively clingy with you at night. It doesn't hurt to try moving the crate into the bedroom if you want to try it.

And don't worry about asking questions, I'm more than happy to try to help you out! Dealing with SA really is heartbreaking, I totally sympathize. Nothing makes me sadder than seeing my dog miserable. I hope you can get this resolved sooner than later, but until then I'll try to offer as much advice as I can.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

You are soooo helpful! I know that Basil has SA and hhearing some first hand advice is always good...and I don't even know if she has full blown SA since she seemed to get so much better and then BOOM...bad things.

I have been stressed about work and other things and that could be setting her off, and, as I said, she was in her crate an exceptionally long time about three weeks ago and that is when this all started. There hasn't been a lot of activity around here (we are pretty low key), so it isn't the holiday hustle and bustle (yet)...it could be just my stress, though. She is totally different with my husband. 

The reviews I read about the DAP collar said that it will work even if it isn't on the dog directly. It's like $15, so I figure I can give it a shot. I am going to look into a DAP diffuser, too (thanks for the link).

And she is not clingy at all at night. She doesn't sleep in our bed. She sometimes starts off sleeping on the floor on my side of the bed, but within a few minutes, she is snuggled up either in her "bedtime" crate or in her bed. She does routinely check to see if I am still there at 3:30 each morning (without fail) and then she usually goes back to sleep. She is always excited to see me out of bed in the morning, though.

If my husband would be willing to take her to doggy daycare, we may be able to work it out but he isn't always on board with the helping. I wil talk to him about it--he is the only one who could get her there. We have to make some changes to make sure she is okay. I don't even know how she would do with doggy day care--it may make her worse thinking we are abandoning her...she is weird that way!

We do love her...who wouldn't? She has the potential to be such an amazing dog...and she will be. We just need to "balance" her out. 

I am going to the petstore tomorrow to look into calming supplements with tryptophan (any suggestions?) and looking into the DAP stuff.

Thanks again! You are awesome.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

No problem! I'm glad to help :biggrin1:

If you can afford daycare I'd definitely suggest talking to your husband and seeing if he'd be willing to take her there. Does she play well with other dogs? If she likes being around other dogs, I definitely think daycare is an excellent option. When we can afford it, we're sending Basil to daycare. He absolutely loves other dogs, and I'm fairly certain it would make him so much happier. Not only is he not alone, he's also getting exercise, which helps relieve anxiety!

As for supplement suggestions: We've used the DAP diffuser with great success. We also give him a supplement called Happy Traveller, we've had success with giving him Benedryl (though it's case by case, just like the melatonin. Some dogs get hyper rather than calm down), he wears a Calming Collar, which I notice the most dramatic results when he's mildy stressed, probably because his SA is so severe. Also, when he's alone I play calming music (he has his own playlist on my iTunes). Cracker (her dog also has/had SA) recommended to me Canine Lullabies, though I haven't tried it yet.

Read the labels of all the calming supplements before considering buying them. I once bought Basil a sort of "calming paste" that you're suppose to feed to your dog. Much to my surprise, though, the paste made him even more hyper! I look at the label, and one of the first ingredients is high-fructose corn syrup! So be aware and good luck to you!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I am crying now--bought the calming treats, the DAP collar...got everything set up...

Today I came home, she was freaked out, had peed in her crate (a while ago based on how dry it was--but she had peed, I could smell it)...I feel like giving up. I know I can't and I won't, but it is how I feel. I can't go anywhere, stay late at work, leave...she is controlling every aspect of my life right now and I am so stressed out (which isn't helping, I know), and I don't know what to do! I don't know how you do it--you manage so well. I am a mess.

I am contacting a behaviorist right now, but this is devestating and I feel soooo lost. I can't seem to help her.

It isn't the crate...she was in and out of it last night to sniff, play, etc. If I ask her to go into it, she will go right in and lie down. It's the being alone that gets her.

Sigh, sob, and sigh some more...


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I highly recommend a trip to the vet. After my vet prescribed Reconcile for Basil's SA, it helped so much. Ask your vet to do some tests to rule out things like hormonal imbalance, thyroid problems, etc. Also, contacting a behaviorist would definitely help. 

Just keep with it! It's slow going, but when you finally start to see some results, it's so rewarding. Good luck!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks. The behavorist is supposed to call to get some information from us so we can decide what the cost would be in getting her some help. At this point, I almost think I would be willing to pay about anything to figure out why she acts the way she does.

I would be lying if I said this was her only issue, so maybe they are all tied together--I am hoping an expert can tell me that.

I will call the vet next week as well and I plan on ordering the collar you recommended.

Thanks again!


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

I thought my pup was developing separation anxiety because when I left him he cried and howled and would not touch his stuffed Kong or treats while I was away. He was crate trained and he has no problem with his crate all night. He runs in by himself at bedtime. I decided to leave him out in the house by himself for a couple of hours and he definitely was better. He has been left alone free in the house now in the mornings while I work for a couple of weeks and he is better with it every day. He has calmed down and is now showing no signs of separation anxiety. He hasn't even caused any damage in the house, which was my major fear. So I guess his problem was he was sick and tired of being crated after being in it all night. He still greets me like I've been gone a month, even when it's only a half hour. You might try leaving her alone uncrated for a short period of time and see how she does. She could be just completely bored being in the crate.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks. Gracie is not crated at night and does great...but we fear leaving her out during the day because she is destructive (toys, dog beds, clothes--only mine--have been "killed" by her.)

Also, she pees in her crate during the day due to either being nervous or because she just can't hold it (which would be odd since she is 33 pounds and far from a small dog and she is 10 months old)...I don't think I want to come home to pee on the carpet...

We do want to eventually give her some freedom during the day, but she needs to show a little more control first.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Is Gracie all German Shepherd or is she part Husky? 

I would never put any blanket in her crate. I don't with either of my dogs in the house because they will destroy them. I DO give the dogs things to chew on. 

I am also wondering if a secure outside kennel (with a secure top and welded wire bottom) and dog house might work better. If she has TRUE SA she will need Rx meds from the vet. OTOH if this is Husky boredom and not enough work then you may have a dog that simply needs 5 miles of exercise in addition to intense training sessions to get her good and tired. 

I never leave my dogs uncrated and loose in the house. Ever.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Is Gracie all German Shepherd or is she part Husky?
> 
> I would never put any blanket in her crate. I don't with either of my dogs in the house because they will destroy them. I DO give the dogs things to chew on.
> 
> ...


I was wondering about Gracies exercise level as well. Auz was insane at 10 months old when he didn't get good hard exercise (walks only warmed him up). Will Grace chase a flirt pole?


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Theyogachick, I'm not really sure what your kitchen is like, but is it possible to keep everything off the floors and counters (if she can get to them)? I just found this gate (Haven't compared prices anywhere else, though) and I think it would work great for open floor plans. She may feel less anxious if she has room to stretch out and walk around a bit. It could be worth trying out.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Thanks to all who have offered advice.

Gracie is part Husky and part GSD (from what we can tell). There is something else in her because at 10 months, she is only 33 pounds. I am beginning to think it is rat terrier based on head and ear shape, but I could be wrong...

Gracie gets walked daily (except when it is raining or snowing like it was today). We usually walk for about 2 miles and we work on training as we walk (heel, stop, sit, turn, down, stay...the works). She is very low energy in the house...plays here and there, sleeps, plays a little more...chases random things in the backyard. We work on training everyday. She sleeps 80% of the time that we are home and, for the most part, the only destructive behavior she has is when she is crated OR when she gets a new toy that she just can't help but tear up. If we can't walk, I work on training more or we play tug, Gracie's version of fetch or we play hide and seek with toys, treats, etc. I am working on teaching her new tricks (twirl, high five, etc.).

Gracie gets nothing she hasn't earned. She sits before exiting the house, getting in and out of the car, getting her leash on. I make her earn her food, treats, and attention. I ignore all whining/barking/attention seeking behavior.

I don't know if she would chase a flirt pole, but I would be willing to try it. I have been toying with the idea of getting a treadmill to see if she would walk on that (and, if she didn't, I could still use it).

The gate looks intriguing, but I am not sure if it would work in our kitchen since it is open to our living room and is open towards the hallway. I would have to measure. We could use something like that in our master bathroom, though, so we may try that. (Curse these open floor plans...good ideas at the time!)

The behaviorist is supposed to call us this week so we can see if she can help. I am optomistic...today we put Gracie in the bedroom with a gate up and she was alone for like 15-20 minutes before we even heard a whine. Although that was good, we don't want to leave her in the bedroom for a long amount of time because we really don't want to come home to a destroyed bed!

Part of the problem is the lack of support I get from dear old hubby, so 98% of this is all on my shoulders to figure out/deal with/"fix." I have to train, exercise, feed, etc. It is frustating and I am sure that is not helping matters. I would love to be able to walk her before work, but I get up at 5 already in order to get everything done that I need to in the morning. Hubby gets up at 6:30 when I leave for work and goes back to bed for an hour--an hour that I have asked him to play with Gracie to wear her out...he says he is too tired. When I come home, I still have work to do (I teach, so paper grading follows me everywhere), so I am trying to balance out all of that...that doG we don't have kids yet!

But enough airing my dirty dog laundry...

Thanks so much for all your help and advice. I will look into some options and I am working on desentizing her to my leaving, getting her used to being in the crate when we are home, and, overall, trying to balance her out.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

This weekend we really worked on crating her while we were home. Both days she did great. yesterday my parents came for dinner and we crated her while we ate. She couldn't even see us and she was silent. She has slept 8 hours both nights this weekend...she can hold it all night.

Today hubby comes home at lunch to let her out (at noon.). He puts her back into her crate. He comes home at 3 because he is sick and he finds a peed in crate...AGAIN! She had just been out three hours prior. 

I know she can hold it...she has proven that time and time again...but she is not doing it.

I really hope that behaviorist calls me today...I gave her the number and told her we would be here all week after 4. I just hope that is good enough.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

When your husband let her out and found pee, how exactly was Gracie behaving? Was she calm? Excited? Overwhelmingly frantic? When I come home to Basil, he's absolutely frantic. His eyes are bugging, his mouth is wide open and he's panting/whining like a high pitched alarm, he's wiggling and shaking all over the place, he jumps up and frantically scratches at my legs and will NOT leave me alone. This lasts about 5-10 minutes (Used to last like half an hour, actually) and then he will run off and start enthusiastically playing with toys or running around the apartment. After a while of spazzing out on his own, THEN he finally calms down.

It's not unusual for dogs to be excited and happy to see you when you come home, but is she truly frantic and unable to contain herself? If not, then perhaps I would start to wonder if he may have an underlying medical issue causing the inappropriate urination. Otherwise, it's probably anxiety, and I recommend you continue your current course trying to gradually work down her anxiety.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

When I get home to let her out, she is panting and whining and pacing in her crate. When I let her out, she is jumpy and runs around and is generally nuts. But 2 seconds later she is outside by herself with not a care in the world.

She has been testing for UTI and crystals and we found nothing. We have toyed with the idea of having more extensive testing done, but since she can hold her urine all night (sometimes 8-8 1/2 hours). I know that the bodt slows down at night, but if this were a medical issue, I would think it would affect her all the time.

I ordered two books today---McConnell's _I"ll be Home Soon _ and _The Dog Who Loved Too Much_. I have also contacted another behaviorist and our trainer from Petsmart (who called while I was teaching, so I couldn't get to the call). I will call him back later today. The behaviorist I talked to yesterday seemed to be really high on her pricing (I posted about that already) and I want to check all options.

I put the DAP collar on her today before I left for work and Hubby said she seemed mellow. HE went home tat 1 (later than usual) and said that she was fine and didn't pee in the crate today.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

theyogachick said:


> I put the DAP collar on her today before I left for work and Hubby said she seemed mellow. HE went home tat 1 (later than usual) and said that she was fine and didn't pee in the crate today.


Yay! That's great news! The DAP really makes a difference, I feel.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

It seems to be working. I am not saying she is not stressed--she is--but it seems less. I got home late today (by like an hour and a half...my dad let her out before 1) and there was no pee in the crate. She seems to be chewing the blanket less, too...and she looks a little less panicked when I get home. So we are hopeful. I have a couple of books coming and we are working hard on the behavior modification. I am also getting in touch with our trainer from Petsmart to see if he can offer any one on one advice. You have been awesome through this, too, so THANK YOU! It helps to know others have done this and made it through, so it gives me hope.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I spoke too soon.

Today Hubby came home at lunch to let her out and she didn't pee. So he had to go back to work.

I came home to a dog, in a puddle of drool who had peed in her crate.

Sigh.

Two behaviorists have called me back--both charge $125 for the consult and both have said that there is no question that she has SA.

One immediately suggested medicating her. I was leary because I called the behaviorist to try to avoid that, but she went right to it. The other wants to have additional sessions at $85 an hour. Our trainer called me back, but I was working and haven't had time to call him back yet, but I am hoping to see him tomorrow.

She is also getting worse in the car (whining, yipping, etc.) and she is terrible on walks when she sees other dogs. The problems are escalating. 

Add to this that yesterday my husband was like "we really need to get this under control. This is ridiculous."

Uh, hello? I have called two behaviorists, ordered books, done research, asked questions, bought supplements and DAP collars, worked on desentizing coming/going...what have you done? Oh, yeah...came home at lunch and then gone right back out again. That is the extent.

Makes me so mad!

(sorry--there are lots of issues going on at work, which makes be more frustrated than normal. That could, of course, be part of her problem...)

Here is what confuses me about the peeing--she doesn't do it immediately after we leave because Hubby leaves for work at 8, comes home between 12:30-1:00 and she doesn't pee, but, if she is left all day, she does. It is like she can't hold it, but I know she can. It is so weird and frustrating. I have never had a dog that was this difficult before.

Ever.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Your stress is likely being picked up by the dogs. You know this but I mention it anyway. Stress at work BTW is the pits. 

It sounds like she stresses sometimes and that is escalating. She probably does not stress at first when she is alone in the crate but her stress may escalate with time to a point where she cannot hold it anymore under stress or due to stress. 

Honestly, if it is to this point I would TRY Rx meds and SEE if there is an improvement. IF there is, then after a few months of peaceful behavior you can try reducing the meds and weaning her off them. The problem with behavior like this that escalates is that it tends to build over time and worsen.. a self feeding thing. If you can stop the behavior now before it gets regular, then you need to. If meds will do it, then that is what you use.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Medication might help honestly. I know that behavioral modification had little effect on Basil until we got him on medication. I would talk to your vet about it. The medication we had Basil on wasn't like a sedative, it actually reduced anxiety (without making him drowsy or sluggish) so that he could start to become receptive to the desensitization training. It also helped a lot with his on-leash reactivity, too (along with training). The stuff we used is called Reconcile. 

Maybe she doesn't urinate immediately is because she's working herself up over time. I've video taped Basil while he's home alone, and he spends a period of time at the beginning in denial that we've left. He scrabbles and the door and searches for us, becoming increasingly frantic. Then he goes into pure panic mode, screaming his head off and pooping/peeing. After a while he wears himself out and lays down in front of the door just barking until we get home. With all of our effort, Basil's "pure panic mode" has been much less intense, and the amount of time he spends searching for us is getting shorter and shorter. He spends most of just time just laying/sitting in front of the door barking.

As for your husband, it would be really great if he would help you out some, but what are you gonna do? Sometimes people are just difficult. Sure can be irritating!

Good luck and try to look for little improvements over time. This is gonna take a while, so try to enjoy the little breakthroughs as much as possible. Keep at it!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I called and left the vet a message asking about anti anxiety meds so we can start the counter conditioning. I also touched based with my trainer today, but I was in the middle of finalizing an adoption so we didn't have time to chat long...hoping he calls back.

I decided to make the call because she peed in her crate after being alone for less than 2 hours today. 

My husband and my mom are both encouraging me to get rid of her, but I can't bring myself to do that--for numerous reasons. One, I adore her. Two, she adores us. Three, if we abandon her, it will only make the issue worse. Four, I made a commitment to her and I will not let her down. 

I will not say I am not exhausted, because I am, but I refuse to give up.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

It's time to try the meds Yogachick. If she's escalating (and reacting outside to other dogs can be a sign of a generalized anxious behaviour) meds may be key to reducing her overall stress so you don't have MORE issues on top of the SA.
Reconcile is fluoxetine (prozac) in it's veterinary form and comes in a chewable tablet. If cost is an issue you can get it through a pharmacy instead in a capsule form (If Gracie will accept being "pilled"). Same with Clomicalm (clomipramine hydrochloride). Both meds may cause a change in her overall behaviour for a bit as it takes up to six weeks to get the neurochemicals arranged...but once they are through the initial adjustment they settle back into being normal dogs. 

I know when I used to go on antidepressants for my SAD (now treated with meditation, biofeedback and a sun lamp) I would feel weird for about a month or so before I felt "better".


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

I took everyone's advice and called the vet about anti-anxiety meds. Hubby and I discussed it and want what is best for Gracie and so we are doing what we can. We have had now THREE behaviorists tell us she has all the classic signs of SA, I bought Patricia McConnell's book _I'll Be Home Soon_, and she could have been writing about Gracie. I also read the chapter in _The Dog Who Loved Too Much _ and, again, it could be about Gracie. So I called.

Today she calls me back and says she wants to run tests--as in x-ray her bladder and check another urine sample and other things to make sure that it isn't a bladder problem...and she suggested maybe she was having seizures (which I know she isn't--we have taped her and the urinating only takes place when we aren't home.) I made sure to tell her that we have spoken to three behaviorists and they all have said the same thing...and we are waiting on a consult (we have to pick one--doing some background checks since they are coming to our home). She still said she didn't want to do the meds and she said "it isn't time to give up on her." Uh, I know! That is what I am trying to make sure doesn't happen.

She rephrased to "give up hope."

I made sure to explain to her that Gracie does not lose control of her bladder at any other time...except when we are gone. She said "But she got better last time you used antibiotics." Yes, but there was evidence of crystals in her urine and a possible infection that time and this time there was nothing.

We like our vet and they have been great with us so far, but this was a frustrating phone call. And, yes, I broke down and cried on the phone because I am so exhausted and so frustrated and so heartbroken. I don't want to change vets, but, at this point, it looks like the only way we are going to get around this is either to have the behaviorist call or find a new vet...

I guess the logical question I should be asking (and the one I am afraid to ask) is that can two people who work successfully keep a dog with SA? I do NOT (repeat DO NOT) want to give her up...she is so perfect otherwise (in fact today I put her in her crate while I was home and she was great for about 2 and a half hours...only occasional whining, and that is what I was on the phone with vet and upset). 

I just feel so defeated. I thought I had hope and someone has come in and ripped it away.

On the positive, I found a local behaviorist who will come to our house and give us an initial 60 minute consult/evalution for free. That sounds promising.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

God, I hate it when veterinarians are so slow on the uptake. Some are too quick to suggest meds and some just fight it tooth and nail. You've done your research and this is FAR from giving up...why in hell would she even phrase it that way? Does she think she's just miraculously going to cure herself of SA? 

If it were ME I'd be insisting that she write me a script or dispense the meds or I will be leaving the practice. Gracie is YOUR dog and your vet is not listening to you.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*



Cracker said:


> God, I hate it when veterinarians are so slow on the uptake. Some are too quick to suggest meds and some just fight it tooth and nail. You've done your research and this is FAR from giving up...why in hell would she even phrase it that way? Does she think she's just miraculously going to cure herself of SA?
> 
> If it were ME I'd be insisting that she write me a script or dispense the meds or I will be leaving the practice. Gracie is YOUR dog and your vet is not listening to you.


I haven't had much to say in this thread because I have no advice to give, but I have been following it. Cracker is totally right on this one. You know Gracie best. I would push for meds if I were you. (Even if that means coming off a bit harsh to your vet... That, or can you try and go to another vet? I don't know if that's a possibility or if they would just want to run the same tests again anyway....)

Whatever happens, just remember that Gracie is such a lucky girl to have a wonderful owner like you.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

I called the vet back today. After talking with hubby, here is what we decided:

We will let them test her...run another urine sample, x-ray her bladder, whataver you want...but we also want to walk out of there with a prescription for anti-anxiety meds. Could there be a medical problem? Sure. I am not ruling it out, but I also know 100% that there is an anxiety problem. I am hoping we can get a prescription for regular Prozac as the animal meds are a little pricey (they work the same, right?)

Today no one could come home to let her out and she was a MESS when I got home. I knew she would be, so I prepared myself for it, so it wasn't as bad (no...that is a lie...it was bad.) I called the vet immediately. She has an appointment first thing Saturday morning (it is the soonest that my hubby and I can get together and do this.)

Can someone please offer me some encouragement on this front--hubby and I both work...Can we logically manage a dog with moderate to severe SA or are we kidding ourselves? I am willing to put in the time to countercondition, so that isn't a factor--I mean, logically, can two people who work full time keep a dog with SA? (I know what answer I want to hear, but I need someone to be honest...we want what is 100% best for her, and we want it to be us, but I need to know the realism, too.)


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

Yes it can be done, realizing of course that SA is often improvable but not completely curable. This means anticipating setbacks if things change at home (if you move for example). 
But it won't be easy and it will take time.
One of the best things you can do is look into a dogwalker or occasional doggy daycare in a good daycare. This will help break up the days, reduce some stress on you AND the pup and make sure she gets to blow off some steam during the day while you are at work.

If Gracie is an easy pup to pill (you can use pill pockets) then buying generic fluoxetine shouldn't be an issue. I know someone on another forum mentioned being able to get the 5$ prescription rate at Costco or one of the other big box pharmacies...worth looking into!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

Thanks for that. I am looking into options for her during the day and I know that it isn't something we can "cure." 

Good news is our trainer from Petsmart saw me today and we chatted for quite a while about her issues. He offered some tips and he has offered to come out to the house once a week or so free of charge to try to help us out. I thought that was nice--and it can't hurt. Hubby doesn't really care for the guy, but he knows Gracie (we went through two 8 week classes with him) and he said he saw some quirks in her that could have predicted this (we saw them, too). He also said we can take Gracie to his house sometimes during the day where she can hang out with other dogs and work on being less anxious all day and work on socializing more with other dogs in a more relaxed setting.

One thing he asked me to do today was to tone back the affection we give Gracie for a while. he said it sounds mean, but he wants us to try to make her less needy. He said this would be a very hard thing to do, but he wants us to try. I am willing to try anything at this point, so...


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*



theyogachick said:


> Can someone please offer me some encouragement on this front--hubby and I both work...Can we logically manage a dog with moderate to severe SA or are we kidding ourselves? I am willing to put in the time to countercondition, so that isn't a factor--I mean, logically, can two people who work full time keep a dog with SA? (I know what answer I want to hear, but I need someone to be honest...we want what is 100% best for her, and we want it to be us, but I need to know the realism, too.)


I'm a full time student and spend many hours a week at school doing work, and my boyfriend works full time (plus a long commute). We manage Basil pretty well I think. So it's not as if you have to be home all day to manage a dog with SA. But what I really think it comes down to is how willing and dedicated you are to training and making sure that every day when you leave her home alone, set her up for success (providing a safe place for her so she doesn't come into any harm in her panic, giving her exercise to wear her out, giving her things like supplements and DAP that can help calm her, providing her with toys and treats to help keep her occupied, etc.). I understand that you've had a tough time getting your husband to cooperate, but I believe that managing Gracie's SA is still possible. It sounds to me like you're a VERY dedicated, loving owner. Obviously it'll be a long journey, but if you're willing, I have faith that you'll do what's best for Gracie.

BTW, I think it's terrible that your vet is trying to discourage you from using medication for Gracie's SA. That's totally unreasonable. I hope you can get things worked out.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

Just want to say that Prozac may not be the right drug (it may be but it may not be). You may have to try more than one.. and the dog may not react immediately.

Yes, I believe with meds that this is workable even tho you go to work. Time will tell on that one. Give it a go and see.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

I think your trainer is right, Reducing the amount of attention given makes it less "noticeable" to the dog when you are not there...I did weeks and weeks of lots of ignoring Cracker and yes it's hard. LOL It's not a complete ignoring obviously, but less babying, hugs, chatting etc. I also think it's awesome he's willing to give you a hand. Good luck!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

So far we have been doing the attention reduction for a day...and she does not like it at all...she sat by me yesterday and whined for like 30 minutes...she is not pleased.

Today I have another snow day (not even winter yet and 2 snow days--that does not bode well for the coming winter). Today I have worked on putting her in a stay across the room and making her stay there...and when she gets up, I put her back in the stay in the spot. She voluntarily slept in her crate for about 30 minutes (hubby laughed--said she freaks out when she has to be there but she she doesn't have to be in it, she chooses to be anyway).

When you ignored Cracker, how did you do it...I mean, did you stop petting her altogether? Did you stop acknowledging her? Or did you just tone it back (an occasional pet when she earned it?)

Gracie gets lots of attention...mainly because our other two dogs were so independent they couldn't care less if we paid attention to them...Gracie is the first dog we have had that actually wants attention. We know she gets too much and are willing to tone it back.

And Nargle, I am still struggling with hubby--he still wants to give her all the attention she wants and I have to remind him to back off. He doesn't like that, but I have to get him on board or this will be a nightmare.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

Dang hubby...wants it fixed but can't get with the program! Not atypical really. Tell him this story: I had Cracker's relatively mild SA under control for a year, because I recognized when I got her that she was a velcro dog and wanted to prevent issues, then I had a friend come and couchsurf for five months while looking for work (in my bachelor apt, it was crowded!). I gave her all the rules: no attention when coming in or leaving for at least ten minutes. No excessive petting, kissing and hugging of the dog. She had to earn all rewards (NILIF) and my friend HAD to go out for short periods several times a day if she was not going out for jobsearch stuff. Did she follow it? Not really. What happened? After five months she left and all my work I had done to fix Cracker's MILD SA went out the window and I had a chewing, howling, vomiting, urinating, anorexic mess of a dog.

That is what happens when the program is ignored. And it is NOT the dog's fault. Okay enough of slapping hubby upside the head (metaphorically speaking...tell him I'm sure he IS a nice guy!)

The ignore is this:
No talking, touching or eye contact on entry and exits for at least ten minutes (unless dog has to go out to pee or something..then just keep it quiet)
No chatting to pup for no reason (you know, the chit chat at the dog while making dinner or doing the laundry or whatever where the dog just sits there looking adoringly and tilting her head at the appropriate times unlike all your human friends?)
All attention like petting etc should be under the 'training umbrella'. She does a behaviour, you give her the reward. Teach her to go to her crate on cue. Teach her a settle command and if she gets pushy (nose under the arm, poking or pawing you) get up and walk away or ignore it.

It's a tough program to do, I'm a smushy with my pets so it wasn't easy, but for Cracker's well being (and for Gracie's) it was a necessary thing. It does not have to be forever though you do always have to keep in mind that excessive attention will set you right back where you started. In the beginning it's a lot of no attention, then it can be some attention, but don't tip the balance.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

As I understand it the trick is to not give attention when SHE wants it but to give it for a little bit when YOU want to. 

IOW's use attention instead of food for NILIF and then not a lot.. so there is a beginning to attention and an end to attention and that is very very clear. Maybe give attention for the stay across the room (good Stay! Pet pet) then stop and ask for a down stay..... 

The other trick is no attention when you leave and none when you get home so neither event is a big deal. 

I will be interested how Cracker received attention at the beginning and how it is doled out now.

Posted at the same time... and pretty much what I said.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

To Cracker--hubby is a nice guy, just misguided. He says "what's the fun in having a dog if I can't pay attention to her?" I get his point, but we need to work together to make this all work for all of us. Today when he was leaving he went to pet Gracie and I corrected him (almost as I would correct Gracie when she misbehaves)...he was not pleased, but he'll get over it, too. I just have to get him on board. I almost feel like someone else (like a professional) needs to tell him all of this so that he believes them. Half the time he doesn't believe me.

I am guilty of talking to her a lot...I don't know why, but I am. I will make sure to correct that in myself.

We do NILIF (well, I know I do, but...) She has to perform a command before everything...eating, going out, getting in and out of cars, etc. She never gets a treat just because.

I am very careful not to say anything to her before I leave and I now have hubby putting her in her crate ten minutes before he leaves for work. He goes in and out several times putting things in his car and he says she is fine. It's after the peanut butter stuffed goodie is gone that she realizes she is alone and then all heck breaks loose. When I come home, she is in full blown panic mode, but I usually take off my coat and shoes and such before even going to her crate.

Gracie goes to the vet Saturday morning for her medical evaluation to see if there is another reason for some of this, but I don't expect to find anything. I am mainly doing it to appease hubby who I don't think wants to believe she really has a "psychological" problem (although he is starting to come around to the fact that we may need a "dog therapist" AKA behaviorist)

I want to thank all of you for all the help. I can't imagine going through this without the support of the people here. Hubby is getting tired of "well, someone on the forum said..." but is helps.

So, from Gracie and I (and Gizmo who has to listen to her barking all day), thank you.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

The way I give attention with Basil, is whenever we're leaving or coming home, Basil doesn't even get eye contact. I pretend he doesn't exist. I turn my back to him and let him spaz out, and only acknowledge his presence when he's standing still, four paws on the floor, not whining or making noises. No attention at all before I leave, though. It's not terribly difficult now not to give him attention when I leave because we've gotten to the point where I can throw a Kong under his table and he doesn't care WHERE I am, and I can just go about my business and leave, but before if I would pick up my jacket or my purse, or even walk near the front door, he would jump on me, scratching me to ribbons and screaming. I just keep my back to him and say nothing. 

During the day when we're not coming home or leaving, I tend to give him attention only when he's calm, and I try not to give him kinds of attention that will get him all excited (Like talking in a high pitched voice super excited). I will give him attention as a reward for doing a command, like I'll ask him to sit and calmly pet his ears and neck. I don't reward for him forcing me to five him attention, though, like biting at my pants or whining. I agree that using a NILIF program would be an excellent idea. Also, I do reward him for being calmly independent from me, for instance, if Basil decides to take a nap in a different room, I may randomly go in there and give him a scratch on the head or a treat and then go on about my business (If Gracie decides to start following you around after this, though, I may hold off on rewarding her until she gains a little more independence and chooses to continue to stay in the separate room. You don't want her to feel like you're reminding her to be clingy).

The most important thing to remember, IMO, is that you should only reward calmness. Anxiety needs to be met with totally ignoring her.

ETA: Ah, I didn't see that there was a third page, lol! That's good that you practice NILIF, just remember that everything, even looking at her and saying one word, is reinforcement. 

Also, another thing you can do when you let her out of her crate when you come home, is to stand near the crate with your back towards her (though within her eyesight so she doesn't continue to panic because she thinks you're gone) and wait until she stops whining and scratching, and only letting her out of the crate when she's calm. Then immediately after you open the crate door, go back to pretending she doesn't exist. When we used to crate Basil, it helped get him into a less panicked state of mind to wait until he's calm before letting him out of his crate, rather than letting him bust out and maul me because my face is right there looking at him as I'm opening the crate door. 

I hope your husband becomes a little more cooperative over time! Hopefully after seeing the vet and having some tests done, he'll be more willing to follow the "professional's" advice :biggrin1: I'm lucky, my boyfriend knew absolutely nothing about dogs before meeting me, so he's of the mindset that "You know a lot more about dogs than I do, so I'll just go with whatever you say," Lol! My mom, on the other hand, has owned several dogs in the past, and is the kind of person to need "proof from a professional" before she'll listen. Sometimes ignorance is a good thing, lol!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

Nargle--I ordered the DAP diffuser that you suggested today, so that should be here in a week or so. Found it on sale for like half off, so, hooray!

I made sure to ignore her as much as possible today and we are really working on staying across the room or in other rooms. Can't tell you how many times I had to walk back to the spot I put her, put her in a down stay again, and walk away--but it worked. She is not happy about not being able to be "velcro dog" all the time now, but she will get used to it.

I put her in her crate for a while today, soo, and went to help hubby paint the basement. She was calm and quiet for, oh, 10 minutes, and then all heck broke loose, so I went back upstairs (when there was a lull in the barking) and went to where she could see me. I then left her for another 30 minutes or so. By the time I let her out she was sleeping quietly (she had done the big contented dog sigh). When I opened the door, she didn't even care about getting out right away.

I will admit I am bad about not making her calm down as much as I should when I come home because she has usually peed in her crate and I want to ger her out of it as soon as possible. I will work harder on waiting.

And I did buy some Benadryl last night to use as a back-up. When she was stung by a bee in the summer she swelled up like a balloon, we went to the dog ER and they gave her some Benadryl and it knocked her out. I am hoping maybe that will help us get through tomorrow (last day before winter break for me). 

I don't like the idea of drugging my dog into submission, but I don't want her freaking out, either.

Fingers crossed.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

The Benadryl helped yesterday, but she was groggy all day.

Today we went to the vet. She had a million tests done and found crystals again...so she is on prescription food (much to my dismay--posted about that in the food forum) and we have a prescription for Prozac from our local pharmacy (the Reconcile was $50 for a 30 day supply...the prozac was $4.) Vet said she does have SA and this should help as long as we keep up with the counterconditioning and such. So there is hope there. She also said that she doesn't think we will need to keep her on it forever--maybe a 6 months to a year. She put 6 refills on the medication as well, so that is good.

Now I am stressing about the food (Royal Canin SO...what junk.)

This will all work itself out...I hope.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

If she is prone to crystals, maybe try giving her distilled water to drink. It helped my mom's dog who had 3 bladder surgeries, but was fine after drinking only distilled water. She lives in an area with really hard water.
Do you still have Gizmo?I don't see him mentioned, so I am guessing no? Maybe another dog for company would help.
Do you have a friend that has another dog that she gets along with, where you could leave her for the day? Just a thought. I've had multiple dogs for 30 yrs, and never had one with SA, so maybe having another dog for company would help. (I'm sure there are dogs in multiple dog households with SA, but I think it is much more uncommon).


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

Thanks for the suggestion on the distilled water. Maybe we can try that.

We do still have Gizmo...he doesn't seem to stay with her during the day--he likes the dining room or behind the couch and her crate is in the living room. She is more "people" and less "dog" dependent it seems. She loves other dogs, but loves people more.

Our trainer has offered to let her run at his place from time to time during the day. We are looking into that. We don't have any friends with other dogs who are home during the day.

I am off for the next two weeks. We are going to start the medication tomorrow, the new food transition tonight and continue ignoring/counterconditioning the best we can. Our DAP diffuser should come in next week (I hope).

Thanks for the advice!


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

*Re: FRUSTRATED at VET (not dog)*

I think that true SA is pretty uncommon, so not a lot of people have experience with it. There are dogs who are prone to boredom and destructive behavior that may seem like they have SA in a single-dog situation, and they could probably benefit from being able to hang around with another dog so that they're less bored, I believe. With true SA, though, it may or may not work. If the thing that the dog finds to be the most valuable is human interaction, it's going to be hard to find something that's valuable enough to keep her mind off of the fact that there are no humans around. It's especially challenging if the dog doesn't just need humans around, but needs a specific one or two people. But for some dogs, interacting with other dogs is extremely valuable, too. I think this is the case with Basil. He's the happiest he ever is when he's running free with other dogs at the dog park. He still checks in with me frequently, but the dog park is one of the few places I can be out of his direct sight without him panicking. In fact, he kind of doesn't care if I'm even there a lot of the time, lol! Because of this, we occasionally take him to doggie daycare on days when we'll be away from home for most of the day. If I could afford it, I'd bring him to day care every time we had to leave home. I bet Basil would benefit from having a canine companion to play with at home when the humans are gone. But it's not necessarily the case with every dog with SA.


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## snoopy1239 (Dec 7, 2010)

This seems familiar : 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fel2WzMcDSg&feature=related


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

snoopy1239 said:


> This seems familiar :
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fel2WzMcDSg&feature=related


... Was this posted as a joke? I can't even begin to describe how stupid that video is!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I agree, Nargle. If it were really this easy to "fix" seperation anxiety, we would all have perfect dogs. 

But considering how many good suggestions I have gotten, I will take this with a grain of salt. 

The only thing that my situation has in common with that video is that the dog's name is Gracie.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I can train my dog to stay while I walk away from him but that doesn't cure his SA. Neither dog alpha rolling! But apparently "you need to use a physical correction or they won't learn..." Hmm...

Still kind of confused as to why he was going on and on about the dog being aggressive, though. I wonder if he's basing that assumption on a previous (not shown) encounter with the dog or if that was the first time he's met the dog?


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I know. Gracie barks at other dogs when we see them, too, but it is in an anxious "OMG...I want to play" kind of way. Not a "OMG...I want to chomp your face" kind of way.

Physical corrections my rear end--as if that would do any good. It will just make a more fearful dog!

Some people...arg.

(On the positive, we started Gracie's meds today. Yesterday we were gone for 3 hours and no pee in the crate. Today we were gone for about 4 hours at a family thing. No pee in the crate, not as much drool. I think it is more of the ignoring we have done than anything, but something is working a little.)


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Hooray! I'm glad the behavior mod is starting to make a difference. Hopefully the medication will add to your success. Keep it up!

Also, I really wish people would take what they see on TV or the internet with a grain of salt. Somewhere out there people are physically correcting their anxious dogs, doing their dog no good, possibly even making the situation even worse. I've heard of people using shock collars or tight muzzles on dogs with SA to keep them from barking, or beating them when they come home to destruction or potty accidents. It makes me so sad.


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## snoopy1239 (Dec 7, 2010)

Nargle said:


> ... Was this posted as a joke? I can't even begin to describe how stupid that video is!


Not a joke, nor advice, it just struck me an eerie coincidence that they referred to a German Shepherd called Gracie who was suffering from separation anxiety. At first, I thought it was regarding OP.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

So she has been on Prozac for 4 days. Today I ventured out to Petsmart with her. My mom went with me...there was no whining in the car. None. Usually she whines the entire way there and the entire way back. We got into Petsmart--there was no frantic behavior, no whining, no pulling--she just trucked along, followed commands when asked, greeted people nicely. It was amazing. She is NEVER like that. Last time we were at Petsmart she whined the whole time. She was awesome.

I really think it is helping, but I also fear it is affecting her appetite. I am hoping that when she regulates a little more that she will feel more like eating (and if I can get her off that crap SO food.). I am going to call the vet tomorrow and see what she sayd about Prozac causing some digestive upset. That would explain a lot.

I am optimistic about the anxiety right now, but more worried about the eating. My mom said that hald of Gracie's problem is most likely because I worry so much about her. She is probably right (i hate when that happens), but because I made so many mistakes with Gizmo and Loki (which we paid for dearly), I want to make sure that doesn't happen again.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Basil was the same way when we got him on meds. He used to be VERY reactive towards other dogs, but now with meds and through lots and lots of training, he's usually perfectly calm around other dogs. Usually dogs with SA have general anxiety anyways, so medication can help with a lot of anxiety related problems.

I'm not really sure if Prozac causes digestive problems, honestly. Basil didn't have a problem. I'm interested in hearing what your vet says. But also keep in mind that she may not like her new food very much. I know personally that Basil refuses to eat food with a lot of grains.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

We are trying to get her to eat ANYTHING at this point--she is turning up her nose at everything--old food, treats, everything. 

One side effect of Prozac is loss of appetite...but I wonder for how long.

We will see what the vet says.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Huh! I hope she gets her appetite back soon! That's a real bummer that she's having problems. Let us know what the vet says!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I suspect it may take her a few days to get used to the meds. Can you reduce the dosage and gradually increase it? sounds like it is working for her SA issues.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

From personal human experience with SSRI's I found my appetite decreased for a couple of weeks while the neurochemical changes were occurring. I felt a bit off balance, but no nausea..just literally no interest in food. It went away after a bit. Since a lot of the chemicals being altered are related to satiety, it's not surprising that appetite would drop.

Give it time, she'll eat again....


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Just spoke to th vet--she said that the not eating is a side effect of the meds (almost like a form of anxorexia) and she wants us to stop the prozac for five days to try to get her to eat (the SO diet for the crystals...they are hell bent on that) and then we are going to use a lower dose of prozac and work up to the 20 mg that she needs. It isn't ideal, but we will give it a shot. So I can start her back on the prozac Monday.

It really seems to be helping with her anxiety. She was so much better at Petsmart yesterday and she has been very "chill" here. Yesterday Hubby and I painted an upstairs bathroom and she stayed downstairs by herself for like 4 hours...she didn't even check to see where we were.

I think this all will work itself out. Meds paired with behavior modification paired with DAP...it will work!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Major Set Back*

Today we went to Hubby's sister's for Christmas and Gracie was alone for 4 hours. She is off prozac, still has the DAP collar, still working on behavior mod...has DAP plug in. She was put in her crate 10 minutes before we left. Because she is on all that special food, she cannot have kongs stuffed with anything.

She pooped in her crate.

She hasn't done this since Easter...really...since Easter. And that is because she was sick.

Now it could be the new food, and it could be the prozac, but I don't know.

I am beyond frustrated and at this point hubby is ready to call it quits. I am not there, but add this to the stress of the holidays and I am so ready to snap. I feel it.

Help.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Look, both you and hubby need to realize that ONE she's ill, two she's got SA, three she's not on her meds, four she's on a new food and not eating...so you're surprised after being alone for four hours she had an accident in the crate?

Expectations are too high here. Even ON anti anxieties it can take MONTHS to improve the SA...it's Christmas and you're stressed. I get that. It's HARD having this going on, I get that too...

But you need to take a step back and breathe. It's Just poo in the crate. She's not dead, hasn't destroyed your house with chewing and hasn't thrown herself out a window to try to find you. 

Deep breaths. Hubby too. Then have an eggnog and relax.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Yes, I know that this is a long term things, and yes, I have relaxed a bit. Hubby and I talked and have calmed down.

I was surprised to find poo in the crate mainly because she usually pees when alone...this was new. She hadn't eaten in a couple days and today she had. I put it all together after reflecting. 

I know this will take time, so I am not expecting a fix overnight. And I was more frustrated with hubby than with Gracie. She actually tried to hide the poo--she folded her blanket over it and moved it out of the way. She seemed to know it was "bad" to do. I just wondered how long she had sat there with poo in the crate.

I didn't want to leave her for four hours, but holiday gatherings have to happen. My sister in law just had a baby three weeks ago, so we didn't want to take Gracie to her house with the new baby. Tomorrow she should only have to be alone for an hour or so in the morning and then everyone is coming here (with strict "ignore the dog" rules...she is not going to get attention when flinging herself at people.)

I know I must sound insane--but I can honestly tell you that I am a (relatively) stable human being...most days. I will just be happy when the holidays are over and I can really focus on getting her on the right track.

ETA: Hubby and I don't like eggnog--will wine do? :redface:


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Wine works. Maybe something stronger.... Baily's???

I want to mirror what Cracker said. She poo'd IN her crate... My first thought was, "well, that is a pain but at least it wasn't on the bed on the pillow!!!!" In humans, these drugs take TIME to work. They say 4-6 weeks at the earliest.... Now dogs may react differently or more quickly.. but it is not like a tranquilizer such as Valium that takes effect as soon as it hits her blood system. Fact is, while you are getting her UTI cleared up and all the rest, maybe the vet can prescribe tranq's for her to be used "as needed" such as when she must be left alone. You get the dog out and empty first, then give a tranq about 20 minutes before crating her.. and you can do this until she can go back on Prozac. NOT a long term solution, but one that can help you all for now. I used this method after Atka had episioplasty surgery and I had to go to work. I got her empty, put her Elizabethan collar on, and crated her.. tranq'ing her ahead. Kept her off her stitches. 

BTW you DO know how to 'match' a dog so they will poop before being crated, right???


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

The wine worked 

I went back and read my post--I sounded like a raving looney. Gah. And you are right--she was IN her crate. Stinks that she ruined her blanket and one of her deer antlers, but it was an easy fix--into the trash they went. She did not injure herself or cause any other mayhem.

Part of it is that we are trying to "fix" (for lack of a better word) so many things at one time. We hit this poor dog with drugs, new food, teh works--all at one time. Not ideal for her, but is is the reality of it, I guess.



Elana55 said:


> BTW you DO know how to 'match' a dog so they will poop before being crated, right???


Actually, no. We do let her out about 10 minutes before we leave each day and I tell her to "go potty" and she usually does. Normally I am more worried about the peeing (since that accident was the only one that was happening), but now the game has changed. I am interested to hear how to do this--would help tremendously, I am sure!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Get a box of wooden matches. When you really really REALLY need your dog to be empty you insert the match, head out, where the thermometer normally goes. 

Most dogs will feel like there is something there (and there is) and go off and poop. A "Q" tip will also work.... Usually...

This is a trick used at dog shows. If you are pretty sure your dog shoud go and you can't have him going in the ring (automatic NQ in Obedience), you 'match' em outside about 15 minutes before your class.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

ewww. Matching...lol. Just be sure not to put it in to far..it is simply the feeling of 'something there' and the sensation of the sulfur (uncomfortable and burny) that causes them to push. Be sure to only use this method if ABSOLUTELY necessary. 

As for your stress moment...I totally understand. I do! That is why I was kindof harsh...like a slap to calm a hysteric. 

And yes, wine will do. LOL


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Cracker said:


> As for your stress moment...I totally understand. I do! That is why I was kindof harsh...like a slap to calm a hysteric.
> 
> And yes, wine will do. LOL


Much needed and appreciated slap across the face!  

Thanks!


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Small Victory--doing little happy dance!*

Today I had to run to the grocery for a few things. I put Gracie in her crate, gave her a bully stick and left. I was gone for about 20 minutes. when I got home there was no barking, no stressing. In fact, she was lik e"ph, you're back." She whined a little and went right back to chewing. When I opened the crate about 15 minutes later, she walked out, walked right back in and finished up her bully!

Tiny victory dance. I know it is only 20 minutes, but considering it was without meds, I will take it.

baby steps, here we come!


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## EtherealJane (May 31, 2010)

*Re: Small Victory--doing little happy dance!*

I just wanted to chime in and say how helpful this thread has been to me. My dog Wesley has been exhibiting some mild SA symptoms (he recently chewed up a wooden baby gate and even learned how to jump over it in his effort to be near us). He's got a vet appointment to rule out anything else, but I'm already working on putting the suggestions here to good use.

*Yogachic* and others who have gone through this... does it get easier? I hate watching/hearing Wesley be miserable. When I left the house today, I was on edge the entire time. As my husband and I were getting items for a project at Lowe's, in my head I was just saying "hurry up, make a decision, we've got to get home." I love my dog, but I want to be able to leave for a few hours without worrying about what I'll come home to.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

*Re: Small Victory--doing little happy dance!*



EtherealJane said:


> *Yogachic* and others who have gone through this... does it get easier? I hate watching/hearing Wesley be miserable. When I left the house today, I was on edge the entire time. As my husband and I were getting items for a project at Lowe's, in my head I was just saying "hurry up, make a decision, we've got to get home." I love my dog, but I want to be able to leave for a few hours without worrying about what I'll come home to.


Gracie was just formally diagnosed a couple of weeks ago, so it isn't easier yet. Well, it is easier knowing what is wrong, but it isn't an easy fix. We are working on a lot of behavior modification and such here...making her more independent. I mean, I celebrated 20 quiet minutes, so...no miracles, but steps.

How old is Welsley? Is he getting enough exercise? Sometimes boredom can mask as SA (I ruled that out with Gracie early on--she had plenty to do when we were gone, but she was freaked out too much to do any of them--the fact she chewed on a bully stick today was a miracle.) I would have a bahaviorist or your vet evaluate Wesley to see if it is SA (as you read, three behaviorists, a trainer and our vet ruled Gracie's symptoms as SA). At first I thought it was just puppy tantrums, but when they got worse, we looked into something else.

If you aren't doing it already, I would try a crate for Wesley. I know that for some anxious dogs this makes it worse, but if he has chewed through baby gates and you are worrying about what you will come home to, it is worth looking into. We crate Gracie because at least whatever damage she does is confined to that small space. Now I know that Nargle can't crate Basil because he does damage to himself...Gracie (so far) just damages blankets and pees.

As to your anxiousness when you leave, I am the same way. I feel worried the whole time I am gone and I get anxious as I approach home wondering if she peed all over herself again...or if she tore up another blanket...or worse. Today's small victory helps me a little. It is a slow process. I am sure that one day I will not worry as much.

The best advice I can give you is the advice otehrs have given me--you have to go one with your life. Gracie has to be alone sometimes...as does Wesley. He will adapt but only if you put the time into the training.

Good luck!


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