# Been clicker training but now choke collar?



## BarleyMob (Feb 15, 2010)

I've been clicker training my puppy for the last 2 months or so, but decided to enroll him in basic puppy obeidence class. After using positive reinforcements and getting so use to clicker training, the class that I enrolled my puppy in uses a choke collar to train. I put it on him and walked around just so he could get use to it, but I hate choking him with it. At the same time though, I don't want to discount a training technique that I have very little knowledge of without giving it a try. After attending the intro class, instructor said that treats should only be used for tricks and not actual obeidence behaviors which is not true for clicker training.

My question is, since the two trainings seem recommend opposite techniques of each other, should I hold off on the clicker training and go full head with the class training? By doing both types of training, will it hinder his learning? Or maybe advance it faster? Thank you for your suggestions.

BarleyMob


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Training with a choke chain is NOT mutually exclusive of training with the clicker. One tells your dog what you do want, and one tells your dog what you do not want. They use opposite quadrants of operant conditioning. I don't know of anyone who does use both, which quite frankly puzzles me. I suspect it's politics more than anything.

However, if you're doubtful of your ability to integrate both methods into training, I would suggest following your trainer's advice. And trust your gut. If something feels wrong to you, don't be afraid to question it.

ETA: Did you know the class would be using +P/choke chains when you signed up for the class? Where is it? Chain store, kennel club, private trainer? What are their qualifications? Training is a mechanical skill, and a _good_ trainer can get results regardless of their methods.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Actually, the choke would more likely be used as a negative reinforcer if it is used properly, and it can be used with any kind of pre-training. The question is whether you want to, or even if you need to? There's likely not a need and you may not want to, in which case, I'd suggest looking for another trainer who is more tailored to your desires. 

You questioned speed of learning, you have a lifetime with this dog...how much time do you need?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

The obedience training class in my area uses choke collars, but I have only used a leather collar and never had a problem. Years ago when I was doing a lot of obedience training, the choke collar was the only thing they used.

I do have small dogs but have never used anything on them but a flat leather collar and they have done just as well. I also use treats which nobody else seems to do and my dogs have always ranked high in their graduation class. I haven't used clicker training as can't seem to get co-ordinated enough.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

There are a several considerations, in no particular order:

1) How old is the pup? Too young a pup can have a bad reaction to correction.

2) You don't seem gung ho for using correction, so you may want to consider foregoing it at this time. Lack of enthusiasm on the trainer's part can result in ineffective handling.

3) Choke chains are (IMO) a less desirable option than prong collars. Did the trainer suggest that prong/pinch collars may be used and/or may be more appropriate? If not, I would have qualms about his qualifications.

4) If you are new (or new-ish) to training, you would be better off sticking to one particular style. Jumping around to different methods is not ideal.



BarleyMob said:


> My question is, since the two trainings seem recommend opposite techniques of each other, should I hold off on the clicker training and go full head with the class training?


I use positive teaching methods and force/correction for proofing my dog, and it works out fine. I consider them to be opposite sides of the coin called "incentive". They don't work counter to one another, but are complementary.

I think it's generally preferable to develop competence (if not mastery) in one skill-set before jumping to another, but I'm old fashioned that way. There are valid reasons to employ either method, but clicker training can take you and your dog a good long way before you encounter any limitations.

That all is a long winded way of saying that you started with the clicker, so you should continue with it as long as you are getting good results.


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## BarleyMob (Feb 15, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> ETA: Did you know the class would be using +P/choke chains when you signed up for the class? Where is it? Chain store, kennel club, private trainer? What are their qualifications? Training is a mechanical skill, and a _good_ trainer can get results regardless of their methods.


The classes are held in Yorba Linda at the community center. I did not know choke chains would be used. I do not know the trainers qualifications, but I will look into that. I do know that he has quite a few years of training under his belt though. I looked around, but I could not find any clicker training classes in the yorba linda area, which is why I went with this class. Classes are paid for, and have heard good results from other people, but I just question the use of chains after reading soooo much on positive reinforcements and clicker training. That being said, I will continue on with the classes and learn a new technique but continue clicker training as well.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

BarleyMob said:


> The classes are held in Yorba Linda at the community center. I did not know choke chains would be used. I do not know the trainers qualifications, but I will look into that. I do know that he has quite a few years of training under his belt though. I looked around, but I could not find any clicker training classes in the yorba linda area, which is why I went with this class. Classes are paid for, and have heard good results from other people, but I just question the use of chains after reading soooo much on positive reinforcements and clicker training. That being said, I will continue on with the classes and learn a new technique but continue clicker training as well.


In my view there is nothing wrong with using all four quadrants of operant conditioning. They are what they are because life throws all four quandrants at us, at dogs, at every mammal, and we're quite well adapted to learn from each.

That said if you don't like it, find a training class you do like.

I would suggest going early or staying late or something and having a good talk about this with the trainer.


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

BarleyMob said:


> I've been clicker training my puppy for the last 2 months or so, but decided to enroll him in basic puppy obeidence class. After using positive reinforcements and getting so use to clicker training, the class that I enrolled my puppy in uses a choke collar to train. I put it on him and walked around just so he could get use to it, but I hate choking him with it. At the same time though, I don't want to discount a training technique that I have very little knowledge of without giving it a try. After attending the intro class, instructor said that treats should only be used for tricks and not actual obeidence behaviors which is not true for clicker training.
> 
> My question is, since the two trainings seem recommend opposite techniques of each other, should I hold off on the clicker training and go full head with the class training? By doing both types of training, will it hinder his learning? Or maybe advance it faster? Thank you for your suggestions.
> 
> BarleyMob


I used choke collars with my doggies when I first started training them, and it turned out badly. First I used a chain, then a leash with a bite through the hand loop.

One of the dogs developed a nasty honking and gagging cough.  I freaked out, thinking he was choking on something. I went to the vet who diagnosed the condition as a bad case of the owner having $140 too much money. More specifically, he said it was kennel cough, and both dogs needed antibiotics and cough medicine. I coughed up a wad of money.

In retrospect I am convinced it was the collar. They showed no other signs of being ill. Zoot had made a couple of pretty violent lunges. Even though the leash was short, it really gave him a nasty jolt.

They are much better behaved now, but I cannot be sure they will never lunge at another dog or cat. I am using Easy Walk harnesses. It took them a while to learn to keep the leash always on the same side, but they got it.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

BarleyMob said:


> I've been clicker training my puppy for the last 2 months or so, but decided to enroll him in basic puppy obeidence class. After using positive reinforcements and getting so use to clicker training, the class that I enrolled my puppy in uses a choke collar to train. I put it on him and walked around just so he could get use to it, but I hate choking him with it. At the same time though, I don't want to discount a training technique that I have very little knowledge of without giving it a try.* After attending the intro class, instructor said that treats should only be used for tricks and not actual obeidence behaviors which is not true for clicker training.*
> 
> My question is, since the two trainings seem recommend opposite techniques of each other, should I hold off on the clicker training and go full head with the class training? By doing both types of training, will it hinder his learning? Or maybe advance it faster? Thank you for your suggestions.
> 
> BarleyMob


Without reading the responses anyone else posted, I'm going to pipe up and say the part I bolded is a complete and utter load of BS. I had a trainer like this when Dude was a puppy, he had credentials like Master Trainer and quite a few years of training under his belt. And according to him, the only dogs who could master obedience titles were german shepherds, dobermans, and standard poodles (I guess he never saw the umpteen millions of goldens, shelties, and border collies that dominate the OB ring?!) He said choke chains were the only way to train, food wasn't to be used, and the dog should work for praise. DON'T BUY IT. The dog isn't working for your praise, he's working to avoid the collar correction. I don't think collar corrections are evil, I don't use them to train, but have used them before to proof. Unless the instructor is willing to let you hang out in class and kind of "do your own thing", I would nix this class. You don't want to train using food to "bribe", but using food as a reward is an excellent way to train a dog that's food motivated. (When I say reward vs. bribe, I mean the dog sitting should make the food "appear" for him. The food shouldn't make the "sit" appear, make sense?)


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I've taken classes through my city's dog club with a couple of different animals. I've been assisting and leading classes at the spcaLA for three years. Both places require a flat, buckle collar and will not allow work on a leash.

I don't love choke chains. If I had to use equipment, I'd choose a pinch collar. But I've honestly never met a dog who needed a pinch collar to learn "sit." There's a time and a place for it, but I'm not sure that a basic obedience/puppy class is either one.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> I've taken classes through my city's dog club with a couple of different animals. I've been assisting and leading classes at the spcaLA for three years. Both places require a flat, buckle collar and will not allow work on a leash.
> 
> I don't love choke chains. If I had to use equipment, I'd choose a pinch collar. But I've honestly never met a dog who needed a pinch collar to learn "sit." There's a time and a place for it, but I'm not sure that a basic obedience/puppy class is either one.


There was one dog in one of Auz's basic obedience (pet manners) classes wearing a prong collar. A very, VERY rambunctious and large lab, who was handled by a somewhat frail older person. The dog was fitted with a pinch collar, and the owner was successful with the dog. It might have been a "band aid", but it was nice to see the owner so happy about being able to actually work with his dog  I chose a pinch collar on Auz as opposed to a choke collar for many reasons, but I liked the fact that he wasn't at the end of the leash, pulling hard while on a collar that tightens the harder the dog pulls. If he pulled with a pinch collar, he'd back off. This was a plus in his first couple of rounds in basic manners class, he was able to back off being at the end of the leash and maintain his dignity (or what was left of it ) For those who use leash corrections freely, it's almost impossible to give a leash correction on a dog who's at the end of the leash, choking themselves. Trying to "pop" a dog who's got the leash as taut as it will go is pretty pointless, and rarely works, and makes the dogs' opposition reflex kick in.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

This is only my opinion and it will be possibly more forceful than usual for my posts...I will start by saying I do NOT like choke chains. Period. In the wrong hands, they can do much more damage than a prong can. 

My opinion is:

Chokes do NOT belong on puppies. Period. Puppy classes are about learning to learn and about basic handling for the owner and for the socialization process. I don't know how old your dog is but I would NOT use collar corrections of any sort on any dog less than six months of age. (and never would be my preference)

Positive training does not have to be permissive and is not just for "tricks". Since veterinary behaviourists use clickers and rewards for CC and OC and do not recommend punishment for behaviour PROBLEMS why would you want to use punishment to teach your dog basic obedience? 

IME crossover dogs (dogs switching from "balanced training" to R+) are hesitant to offer new behaviours and work to avoid corrections, which to me is a sad state of affairs.

If it were me I would not attend the class. There are lots of venues for information on training with different tools, but your puppy does not have to be the guinea pig while you learn about them.

Take it for what it's worth. Go with your gut. I suspect your gut is telling you something.....


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Without reading the responses anyone else posted, I'm going to pipe up and say the part I bolded is a complete and utter load of BS. I had a trainer like this when Dude was a puppy, he had credentials like Master Trainer and quite a few years of training under his belt. And according to him, the only dogs who could master obedience titles were german shepherds, dobermans, and standard poodles (I guess he never saw the umpteen millions of goldens, shelties, and border collies that dominate the OB ring?!) He said choke chains were the only way to train, food wasn't to be used, and the dog should work for praise. DON'T BUY IT. The dog isn't working for your praise, he's working to avoid the collar correction. I don't think collar corrections are evil, I don't use them to train, but have used them before to proof. Unless the instructor is willing to let you hang out in class and kind of "do your own thing", I would nix this class. You don't want to train using food to "bribe", but using food as a reward is an excellent way to train a dog that's food motivated. (When I say reward vs. bribe, I mean the dog sitting should make the food "appear" for him. The food shouldn't make the "sit" appear, make sense?)


^^^ This and what Cracker said too!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Cracker said:


> IME crossover dogs (dogs switching from "balanced training" to R+) are hesitant to offer new behaviours and work to avoid corrections, which to me is a sad state of affairs.


I have a retriever you need to meet. You'll be saying: "Enough with the behavior offering", in no time at all. I think your statement is true of dogs corrected too harshly and started too young, but even moreso with dogs who are mainly corrected (even verbally) for being a dog. Yelling at, and/or smacking, a pup for its normal curiosity--without teaching it what it should be doing--is a pretty quick way to ruin a dog's potential. A lot of people prefer dogs (and kids) who play it safe, over the ones who challenge them.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I have a retriever you need to meet. You'll be saying: "Enough with the behavior offering", in no time at all.


I'd love to meet him..lol. Sounds like a character. Some dogs are very resilient but I believe them to be the exception rather than the rule. But then remember that I work mostly with dogs with fear or fear aggression issues, many who have had their communication skills and calming signals extinguished through over correction. I err on the side of caution when it comes to corrective training because I think most amateur handlers cannot or willnot learn to correct PROPERLY and APPROPRIATELY. Heck, many of them don't even want to _learn_ how to teach a behaviour at all and just expect the dog to learn by osmosis or something. The number of people in class who do a couple of reps of a new behaviour and then stop because the dog "has got it" makes me nuts. Hundreds of reps people..hundreds!




> I think your statement is true of dogs corrected too harshly and started too young, but even moreso with dogs who are mainly corrected (even verbally) for being a dog. Yelling at, and/or smacking, a pup for its normal curiosity--without teaching it what it should be doing--is a pretty quick way to ruin a dog's potential. A lot of people prefer dogs (and kids) who play it safe, over the ones who challenge them.


Yes. Dogs need to be dogs. The problem again is people not understanding what that means! Dogs NEED to sniff, to be social, to work, to roll in stinky stuff, to have connections with their owners and with their neighbourhoods etc. Manners training should take dog behaviour into consideration and finds ways to give the dog an outlet to BE a dog.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Cracker said:


> I think most amateur handlers cannot or willnot learn to correct PROPERLY and APPROPRIATELY. Heck, many of them don't even want to _learn_ how to teach a behaviour at all and just expect the dog to learn by osmosis or something.


I wish I has a dollar for every time I've seen someone give a command to a very young puppy--who clearly doesn't understand what the dolt is saying--and then repeat it LOUDER when the puppy doesn't immediately obey. They'll then label the pup as stubborn or stupid.

Lots of people do a similar thing when talking to foreigners who don't speak their language. Humans can be pretty weird.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I would dump this class. LOL 

Food rewards (or play with a toy for toy motivated dogs) work well. To eliminate them from training makes training actually FEEL like work to the dog. Must do instead of "Oh boy! this is fun! Lets do this!" Top competition dogs are more like the latter. 

The way it was put to me is this. If you go to work, you get paid with money. While money is not your ONLY motivator to work, it is probably reasonably important. If your company stopped paying you for work, would you keep on showing up and working anyway? Probably not.

Same with rewarding behavior in dogs. Tidbits of hot dogs are great pay to a dog (cheap.. quarter 'em lengthwise and then make cross cuts and voila1 100 dog treats). 

If you do not pay for the dog to do something, a lot in the beginning and intermittently later on.. and once in awhile after that.. why is the dog going to work? If your dog does things because he is worried about the correction for NOT doing it, and is not rewarded with something high value, you are going to get lack luster behavior. 

I never use choke chains or flat full choke collars. I will use a limited slip (martingale) collar as the dog cannot slip out of it. I have also used a pinch (prong) collar. Full choke chains have been proven to cause esohpogeal damage in dogs they are used on.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Yes. Dogs need to be dogs. The problem again is people not understanding what that means! Dogs NEED to sniff, to be social, to work, to roll in stinky stuff, to have connections with their owners and with their neighbourhoods etc. Manners training should take dog behaviour into consideration and finds ways to give the dog an outlet to BE a dog.


Which is all well and good really, and I agree, but some dogs also NEED to kill small animals like people's cats and other behaviors you don't want as well. Not all of "being a dog" is benign.

For one of my dogs any small animal besides a dog is to be hunted and killed if at all possible, and every dog is to be greeted, even if it does not want to be greeted, or it's owners don't want it to be. Her neighborhood is hers it seems, and she makes it a point to mark over any other dog that has been though daily all along our walks.

Letting her just be a dog and do what she seems to have some need to do would be rather disastrous.

My other needs to get into garbage, she was a stray and that and sniffing around is all she generally wants to do, but still not something I can let her do.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I would dump this class. LOL
> 
> Food rewards (or play with a toy for toy motivated dogs) work well. To eliminate them from training makes training actually FEEL like work to the dog. Must do instead of "Oh boy! this is fun! Lets do this!" Top competition dogs are more like the latter.
> 
> ...


I agree I would probably dump the class if it is as described, but the description isn't so clear on methods really.

I would certainly have a good talk about my concerns to the trainer at a minimum and make up my mind after talking about it.

I understand the dog is a pup, which means what you are describing should be all that's needed, pay the dog. It might be different, and a bit more complicated for an adult rescue.


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## john47 (Apr 5, 2010)

i use the pinch (prong) collar, food and balls and bite rolls to train a puppy. i never use a leash correction until the puppy knows the command. the food is to teach and the ball or bite roll is the reward. this has worked very well for my dogs. you have to get the puppy motivated for the food and toys first though.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I have met a few trainers with the same qualifications as the one mentioned below. 



> I had a trainer like this when Dude was a puppy, he had credentials like Master Trainer and quite a few years of training under his belt. And according to him, the only dogs who could master obedience titles were german shepherds, dobermans, and standard poodles


The next type is the one breed only trainer and last but not least is the one titled dog only or the one trained dog only and (read short story below)

I have mentioned before about 2 pups I sold to 2 men in my area, when pups were old enough I trained the pups and then both men with their dogs moved to 2 different areas in the country and started their own dog training classes. The weird part of the story is that through the years I had seen so much untrue stuff in the world of dog training I wasn't even surprised.

In closing I don't like chokes, prong collars are my weapons of choice along with food reward as needed.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RaeganW said:


> Training with a choke chain is NOT mutually exclusive of training with the clicker. One tells your dog what you do want, and one tells your dog what you do not want. They use opposite quadrants of operant conditioning. I don't know of anyone who does use both, which quite frankly puzzles me. I suspect it's politics more than anything.


I can't speak for anyone else, but my choice not to use a choke chain on Wally has nothing to do with politics.

It's not necessary for him. I can tell him what I don't want and he gets it without needing the tool.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but my choice not to use a choke chain on Wally has nothing to do with politics.
> 
> It's not necessary for him. I can tell him what I don't want and he gets it without needing the tool.


Yeah Kaya is like that. She's always happy to do anything I ask if she understands what I want, and to not do things I don't want if she understand I don't like it.

Most pups are like that I beleive unless they are allowed to form bad habits.

My other dog Hope learns twice as fast as Kaya what I want and what I don't want. She simply places her priorities above mine as no reward I have is even close the self reward she gets from the behaviors she would rather do, and dogs tend to do what is rewarding.

I wouldn't rule out a class though because the guy uses a choke or prong collar, I would want to see if he requires it, how he uses it, and what the rest of his methods were.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I trained Atka wit a clicker to start. Where it fell down was when I needed her to absolutely positively do something and do it even though it was not interesting to her at the moment, was not desirable to do at the moment, or was not on her radar and she didn't care for it to be. 

At that point I introduced a bit of Positive Punishment in the form of a correction. 

Now, I do use both. I typically form a new behavior with the clicker. I enforce (by correction) that behavior when I have proofed it well and she has _clearly_ indicated she has heard/seen my request and _clearly_ elected to not do it. CLEARLY is the operative word. IF it is not clear she understood, then she needs more reinforcing until it is clear. 

I will also say this may well be my lack of ability "clicker" training. I don't think it is, but I have left that door open.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I wish I has a dollar for every time I've seen someone give a command to a very young puppy--who clearly doesn't understand what the dolt is saying--and then repeat it LOUDER when the puppy doesn't immediately obey. They'll then label the pup as stubborn or stupid.
> 
> Lots of people do a similar thing when talking to foreigners who don't speak their language. Humans can be pretty weird.


^^This is very true. In my classes, at the start of the first class I ask for a volunteer after explaining how our dogs (pups/dogs) learn our language and what we want. I had a friend teach me the word for "sit" in another language (don't how to spell it lol) and with the volunteer standing in front of me I say the word. They of course have no clue (at least none yet ), I repeat the word louder, repeat again louder. Of course they never sit, I dismiss them.......and they go sit down.......and I say the word and produce a candy for them. Amazing the Ohhhhh! responses from the entire class.........they get it.

It is a simple demo, that has made teaching them how to communicate with their pups/dogs from the dogs point of view much easier.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

LynnI said:


> ^^This is very true. In my classes, at the start of the first class I ask for a volunteer after explaining how our dogs (pups/dogs) learn our language and what we want. I had a friend teach me the word for "sit" in another language (don't how to spell it lol) and with the volunteer standing in front of me I say the word. They of course have no clue (at least none yet ), I repeat the word louder, repeat again louder. Of course they never sit, I dismiss them.......and they go sit down.......and I say the word and produce a candy for them. Amazing the Ohhhhh! responses from the entire class.........they get it.
> 
> It is a simple demo, that has made teaching them how to communicate with their pups/dogs from the dogs point of view much easier.


Neat! Not that I'm teaching classes or really have any immediate plans to, but would you mind if I steal this little exercise for the future? I love handler games.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

LynnI said:


> ^^This is very true. In my classes, at the start of the first class I ask for a volunteer after explaining how our dogs (pups/dogs) learn our language and what we want. I had a friend teach me the word for "sit" in another language (don't how to spell it lol) and with the volunteer standing in front of me I say the word. They of course have no clue (at least none yet ), I repeat the word louder, repeat again louder. Of course they never sit, I dismiss them.......and they go sit down.......and I say the word and produce a candy for them. Amazing the Ohhhhh! responses from the entire class.........they get it.
> 
> It is a simple demo, that has made teaching them how to communicate with their pups/dogs from the dogs point of view much easier.


That's a good one.

My trainer couldn't use it though, we have an outdoor only class and no chairs, nobody sits in class.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LynnI said:


> ^^This is very true. In my classes, at the start of the first class I ask for a volunteer after explaining how our dogs (pups/dogs) learn our language and what we want. I had a friend teach me the word for "sit" in another language (don't how to spell it lol) and with the volunteer standing in front of me I say the word. They of course have no clue (at least none yet ), I repeat the word louder, repeat again louder. Of course they never sit, I dismiss them.......and they go sit down.......and I say the word and produce a candy for them. Amazing the Ohhhhh! responses from the entire class.........they get it.
> 
> It is a simple demo, that has made teaching them how to communicate with their pups/dogs from the dogs point of view much easier.



That's awesome. 

Reminds me of when I started learning how to capture behavior like this. Would have loved to have been a part of that demo.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

RaeganW said:


> Neat! Not that I'm teaching classes or really have any immediate plans to, but would you mind if I steal this little exercise for the future? I love handler games.


Sure, np. If you really want to have some fun, try using a clicker on a person to get them to do a desired behaviour like sitting. Of course no verbals, no prompting etc. Even my teen son gets into that game and he has no interest in training dogs etc.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I wish I has a dollar for every time I've seen someone give a command to a very young puppy--who clearly doesn't understand what the dolt is saying--and then repeat it LOUDER when the puppy doesn't immediately obey. They'll then label the pup as stubborn or stupid.
> 
> Lots of people do a similar thing when talking to foreigners who don't speak their language. Humans can be pretty weird.


Not only that, but it can actually backfire. If I stood behind you screaming "hoe laat het is?!" over and over again, and eventually slapped you over the head for not answering my question (what time is it?), you would learn only that I'm an unpredictable lunatic. 
You might also learn that it's best to just tune me out when I go on a rampage and go about your business. Or, you might pretend to see something fascinating under your fingernails. (Ever had a dog who didn't know what X command meant, and promptly began sniffing?)
I can never say enough good about Patricia McConnell, but her book (The Other End of the Leash) she describes our primitive need to get louder whenever something isn't understood by someone we're talking to, dogs are no exception. I find myself doing it on occasion, and I _know_ better! It's also funny to note that she talks about how apes and monkeys prove who is the biggest [email protected] on the block by making loud noises and yelling the loudest. I hesitate to even type the word, but true "alpha" dogs (not brats or bullies, but TRUE alphas) can prove their status by being quiet and confident, and serene. Yelling a command at a dog who has no idea what the word means is pretty stupid and pointless. That's the exact reason why Tag didn't even hear the word "sit" til he was offering it every other second. I simply replaced the clicker with the word sit. Same with down, stand, back up, come, etc. It really, really works.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

LynnI said:


> Sure, np. If you really want to have some fun, try using a clicker on a person to get them to do a desired behaviour like sitting. Of course no verbals, no prompting etc. Even my teen son gets into that game and he has no interest in training dogs etc.


I've done this! It's a great learning experience for the trainer and trainee  Especially as the game gets a little harder, when you start shaping a behavior with several clicks (kind of like playing the old "you're getting warmer/you're getting colder" kids game). You can shape a person to put their left foot on an end table, or shape them to sit in a window sill, or all kinds of weird stuff!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Not only that, but it can actually backfire.


It is my opinion that the vast majority of us (I include myself) engage in anthropomorphic projection in dealing with our dogs. Regardless how much we consciously try to avoid it. In my younger days, if someone leaned into me and uttered a verbal non sequitur, in a threatening tone of voice, the Ugly Dial got turned up pretty damned quick. I see no downside to treating dogs with the minimal respect I require of others.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Ok, you've already paid for the class, and there aren't any clicker classes available in your area. Do what I did - tell the trainer you're NOT going to use a choke collar. You don't HAVE to give treats during the hour you're in class, and you CAN give treats for reinforcemet during the week you're doing your homework. It worked for me, and my dog was top of the graduating class. No forced sits, no corrections. Just had fun, and made sure I was more interesting to my dog than anyone/anything there.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

poodleholic said:


> Ok, you've already paid for the class, and there aren't any clicker classes available in your area. Do what I did - tell the trainer you're NOT going to use a choke collar. You don't HAVE to give treats during the hour you're in class, and you CAN give treats for reinforcemet during the week you're doing your homework. It worked for me, and my dog was top of the graduating class. No forced sits, no corrections. Just had fun, and made sure I was more interesting to my dog than anyone/anything there.


Yup. The trainer I'm using uses prong and e-collars. But he is quite open right up front you don't have to if you don't want to and he'll work with you just fine without them.

He just says it will take more time and effort to get the results, which in this class the goal is good off leash control under strong distractions.

As I said I would talk to him about all of this, and see if he is open to not using a choke and working with you.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I can't speak for anyone else, but my choice not to use a choke chain on Wally has nothing to do with politics.
> 
> It's not necessary for him. I can tell him what I don't want and he gets it without needing the tool.


Same here, with Tag. He hasn't NEEDED it. A simple "NO" stops him in his tracks, and he doesn't hear it often, so he hasn't learned it's a nagging signal. It means STOP, NOW. Talk all the politics you want, but I don't find them nearly as effective as a prong collar. Plus, a choke collar is pretty damn hard to use on a dog who is a dedicated, champion puller. Their tongue turns blue, your shoulder gets ripped out of its socket, and the dog STILL is pulling. Unless you're setting the dog up to fail (by popping them hard enough to get them to stop before you even bother to teach them what LLW is all about), getting that well-timed pop in on a dog who is used to pulling isn't exactly easy. If the leash has to be slack in order to give a proper correction, and you have a dog who doesn't know what slack IS, then what? Some dogs DO pull through prongs, chokes, no-pull harnesses, and any other collar/head halter/doohickey device you can think of. If I had a dog like that, I would question why my dog has zero respect for me, the leash, or his own neck, and work on that FIRST


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I hesitate to even type the word, but true "alpha" dogs (not brats or bullies, but TRUE alphas) can prove their status by being quiet and confident, and serene.


This is why I never understood why alpha dogs were always described as being forceful and biting/nipping to get their point across etc.

It's more like you said, they freeze, stare, and have that "you don't want to know what will happen if you cross me" look.

Make me wonder about us as a species when we think it's the violent dogs that are the leaders and not the quiet, confident ones that can command with just simply their presence.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> This is why I never understood why alpha dogs were always described as being forceful and biting/nipping to get their point across etc.
> 
> It's more like you said, they freeze, stare, and have that "you don't want to know what will happen if you cross me" look.
> 
> Make me wonder about us as a species when we think it's the violent dogs that are the leaders and not the quiet, confident ones that can command with just simply their presence.


Exactly. I've had so many people say their dogs are "alpha dogs", when the dogs bit people, other dogs, and were basically untrained spoiled brats who were allowed to do what they wanted. A nasty bite I got from a lhasa was because (according to the owner) "he was an alpha dog" 
One true alpha dog (A benevolent alpha, thankfully, who tolerates me grooming her) is a pyr that belongs to my friends neighbor. If I go to my friends house, her other 3 dogs bark and run the fence. The pyr lies in the grass, away from the other 3 dogs, but watching. I would much rather take on the 3 fence running, barking dogs than try to enter that persons house with just the pyr to deal with! She oozes confidence, authority, and tolerance for her packmates


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