# Cesar Millan - is he for real???



## TheBDD (Mar 5, 2007)

Anybody watched "The Dog Whisperer"? It's pretty amazing, but some of the stuff just seems out there. Does it all really come down to establishing that the humans are the alpha dog?


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

Anybody that believes his crap and thinks highly of him does not understand dog behaviour and should not be training any dogs - ever!


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Cesar is not a trainer. He does not train dogs. He rehabilitates them and evaluates their behaviour. I think a lot of what he says is very true. If you read about or talk to most dog behaviousists they will say a lot of the same things as Cesar does. You have to keep in mind that it _is_ a tv show, but Cesar has done a lot of great things for a lot of dogs. Some of his stuff might not be 100% accurate, but he understands dogs and he has a lot of useful information.


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## TheBDD (Mar 5, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> Anybody that believes his crap and thinks highly of him does not understand dog behaviour and should not be training any dogs - ever!


 Well you seem pretty opinionated in the matter... care to elaborate. Is everything he talks about "crap" or just some of it. Walking the dog with control seems pretty legitimate to me.
But what would I know, I'm not a dog trainer... just a civilian who has a daschund.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I think of him as Dr. Phil for dogs. I'm sure Dr. Phil has helped a lot of people, but it doesn't mean his techniques will help everyone, and watching the show doesn't make one a psychiatrist.


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## TheBDD (Mar 5, 2007)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> Cesar is not a trainer. He does not train dogs. He rehabilitates them and evaluates their behaviour. I think a lot of what he says is very true. If you read about or talk to most dog behaviousists they will say a lot of the same things as Cesar does. You have to keep in mind that it _is_ a tv show, but Cesar has done a lot of great things for a lot of dogs. Some of his stuff might not be 100% accurate, but he understands dogs and he has a lot of useful information.


I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but we started using the "shhh" technique on our daschund and it has had an amazing effect on him not going nuts when the mailman comes around, people come over, etc.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

His techniques aren't new or original, in fact the aversives are outdated, but they make for good TV, and that's all that matters to the network.


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## TheBDD (Mar 5, 2007)

Lorina said:


> I think of him as Dr. Phil for dogs. I'm sure Dr. Phil has helped a lot of people, but it doesn't mean his techniques will help everyone, and watching the show doesn't make one a psychiatrist.


That's a great way of putting it. Thanks for the comment.



Curbside Prophet said:


> His techniques aren't new or original, in fact the aversives are outdated, but they make for good TV, and that's all that matters to the network.


I checked your You Tube link, I thought it was going to be a vid of your dog... 
BUT I did find this hilarious Cesar Millan spoof on You Tube - CESAR MILLAN DOES MARRIAGE COUNSELING... hilarious!
Here's the link... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShB6MhdqJE


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> Anybody that believes his crap and thinks highly of him does not understand dog behaviour and should not be training any dogs - ever!


And your training background to justify your negative remarks is what? I hear people bashing Cesar all the time, but everyone I have met that doesn't like him, has had zero experience in any kind of complex dog training, so I am skeptical of his critics.


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## Labloverma (Mar 5, 2007)

I met him when he walked into one of the restaurants I hang out at. He is so real! Awesome, wonderful man. Wanted to help everyone in there. I can NOT say anything bad about him!


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

Captbob said:


> And your training background to justify your negative remarks is what? I hear people bashing Cesar all the time, but everyone I have met that doesn't like him, has had zero experience in any kind of complex dog training, so I am skeptical of his critics.


Studying dogs and dog behaviour for 9years
Training Golden Retrievers for a breeding kennel
Training and racing Siberian Huskies for myself and others
Training and rehabilitating abandoned dogs
Fixing behavioural issues in pet dogs and training them
Sitting in on training and behaviour confrences hosted by people agree with and dont
Daily discussions with dog breeders, fellow enthusiasts, dog trainers, vets, and any other dog-oriented person I come across
And though it may not hold up much, also giving advice via the internet whether it be publicly on forums or my more common route, private messages and e-mail and telephone

I still dont consider myself any ""expert"" but I do know what I am talking about when it comes to dogs. Cesar is able to get dogs to do things by instilling fear in them. Great way to ""rehabilitate"" He forces dogs until they are so stressed out they break and give in. He does the ""quick fix"". Dogs do NOT ""alpha role"" eachother.

The best advice i have ever seen him give is that people need to excercise their dogs more. That is fantastic. But when it comes to actual behaviour modification and training, Cesar is a disgrace to me and my colleagues. He has even admitted publicly that he is not a trainer, only a dog rehabilitator. He has also publicly admitted that he can not train a dog to do something as simple as ""sit"" ""down"" and ""roll over"". When a crew of firemen wished to teach their Dalmation this cute routine for taking to schools, Cesar had to call in someone else. Sad.


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## TheBDD (Mar 5, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> Dogs do NOT ""alpha role"" eachother.


See, that's what made the most sense to me. If dogs don't establish pecking order, what do they do?

I lost my bull mastiff mix (100 lbs) to cancer a couple years ago and he was clearly the dominant dog to our hound/retriever mix (90 lbs). I thought maybe it had something to do with size. But when I brought home a daschund puppy, he immediately established himself as the leader to my hound/retriever mix (even though he was 80 lbs. lighter). Aside from being pretty odd, I thought it very interesting and it kind of supported the whole "alpha" dog theory.

Thoughts?


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

I have only seen him once on some talk show but he seemed to me, to be pretty rough on the dogs but like i said i only seen him one time.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> Studying dogs and dog behaviour for 9years
> Training Golden Retrievers for a breeding kennel
> Training and racing Siberian Huskies for myself and others
> Training and rehabilitating abandoned dogs
> ...


Okay I am not trying to pick an argument here, or even to discredit you as CLEARLY you have a lot of experience, but you just contradicted yourself. As you said Cesar is NOT a trainer, he doesn't and has never claimed to train dogs...therefore why would he have helped the firemen with that Dalmation? The point he was making on that episode is that he DOESN"T train dogs, he trains people how to handle their animals. 

No, I do not believe his techniques work in every case, which by the way, he has also claimed. There have been 3 dogs that I've heard about that he could not help. I also saw an episode where a family had their Min Pin PTS because the techniques ended up not working. I am SURE that not all of Cesar's techniques are valid, but I am also sure that some of them do.

I think that Cesar's goal is to help people who own dogs and know nothing about dogs. I mean seriously watch the show and you can see that most of the things he teaches people are common sense to us dog-lovers. He does push exercise and discipline and some dogs don't get either one. I think his goal is to stop people from over-spoiling their dogs with affection. The majority of the episodes I've seen (which is a lot) have been just people who clearly don't know much about dogs and who allow their dogs to do whatever they want and to take over the household, which is awful. I think that all Cesar is trying to do is help these people take some kind of control over their dogs. I don't think he's a hero or anything like that and I CERTAINLY don't think he has all the answers, but I also don't think he's full of crap. 

That's just my opinion anyway. There are a lot of ways to do things and I really think Cesar's main point is to teach people that you cannot let your dog take absolute control of your life w/o and rules.


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## carolann (Jan 21, 2007)

I read Ceasar's book. Some things I use some I don't. But he has always been upfront about his specialty is in rehabilating problem dogs. In the book he states that he uses the alpha roll in extreme cases and does not recommend a dog owner using this technique without consulting a behaviorist first. I think the alpha roll is used by him only sparingly. Of all the shows I've seen, he has used it twice and both times the dogs were completely out of control. 

My opinion, for what ever it may be worth, is that each individual should decide for themselves how they want to "live" with their dog. I do not believe one specific training method is the only one that will work 100 % of the time with 100% of dogs. Types of behavior modification or training has to be adjusted to fit the individual animal. Just like with kids, time out only works on some. (never worked on mine!  Not trying to say I'm an expert, just stating an opinion. 

I give Ceaser a thumbs up. And a thumbs up to the guys and gals on barking mad and on good dog U and on...............................well, you get what I mean. Anyone who spends time making peoples pets better are okay in my book, as long as there is no pain involved. Never agreed with that particular method.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Well, I have noticed in watching the show, that many of the owners have tried conventional dog trainers with zero success. Not only that, it is often mentioned that the dog trainer that had tried to help the problematic dogs. would finally tell the owner that the dog was hopeless. Somehow, in an hour or two, Cesar manages to change the hopeless dog's behavior for the better. If he is so wrong, and all the other trainers are so right, why don't they all get TV shows and show how they can do it better than Cesar? It is pretty easy to knock someone else, but if you really have a better way of doing it , you should be able to prove it.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I think that Cesar is a good trainer for certain types of dogs. He can help out dogs who are aggressive, jealous, hyper, destructive. Some times his methods seem to be extreme but he hasn't ever hurt a dog so I think it depends on peoples opinions and what they feel comfortable with. Personally....I like him. I would LOVE to have him come to my place and show me different ways to help Chloe over-come her issues with dogs and strangers.


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## TheBDD (Mar 5, 2007)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> I also saw an episode where a family had their Min Pin PTS because the techniques ended up not working.


I saw that episode and I think the woman was just crazy and no matter what, she was intent on putting her dog to sleep and I'm ashamed at her husband for not having a spine to keep her from doing it. Very sad.


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> Studying dogs and dog behaviour for 9years
> Training Golden Retrievers for a breeding kennel
> Training and racing Siberian Huskies for myself and others
> Training and rehabilitating abandoned dogs
> ...



They have started showing some of these shows over here and most respected trainers thought it was some sort of joke or new sitcom!

If I had any problems with my dogs I know who I would rather go to to get them sorted and its the person Ive quoted not CM!


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## chucky (Mar 5, 2007)

i had dogs almost all my life(i.m 32), trained them, tought them to do tricks, i find cesar to be a good teacher for ppl. the owners in almost all cases responsible for dogs missbehavior, even after the show is on for a few years, ppl still treat dogs like kids, and dogs, dominate their owners, most ppl have no idea how dogs mind works, cesar teches ppl, gives them idea how dogs think, that is why, his shows are very helpfull, in most cases, it's the owner, who is doing things wrong, those who looking to find info on traning dogs, in cesar show, will not find it there, but before one trains the dog has a problem, he sould make sure that he isn't the one with a wrong approach.

i see many ppl how think they know how to train a dog, but can't even have two dogs sit still, and not jump on each other. and they call themselves dog trainers, these guys everyone should stay away from.


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## TheBDD (Mar 5, 2007)

lurcherloopy said:


> They have started showing some of these shows over here and most respected trainers thought it was some sort of joke or new sitcom!


If you want to get a good laugh, click on this video, it's a spoof of Cesar Millan using his dog psychology on an unsuspecting couple - HILARIOUS!!!



chucky said:


> cesar teches ppl, gives them idea how dogs think, that is why, his shows are very helpfull, in most cases, it's the owner, who is doing things wrong,


What does CM say, "I rehabilatate dogs. I TRAIN people."

He's not a dog trainer, he's a people trainer.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Is is there any other figure in the dog world that generates more controversy than Cesar Millan?

Honestly, I had no idea that he was not universally respected until I stumbled across this forum. I enjoy his show if for no other reason than it shows me that there are dogs out there that make Esther look like an angel and plenty of owners even more clueless than me. If _Super Nanny_ had been on the air when my children were younger, I would probably have watched it for much the same reason.

And when he says, "Don't try this at home without professional help" I take it literally.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

RonE said:


> Is is there any other figure in the dog world that generates more controversy than Cesar Millan?
> 
> Honestly, I had no idea that he was not universally respected until I stumbled across this forum. I enjoy his show if for no other reason than it shows me that there are dogs out there that make Esther look like an angel and plenty of owners even more clueless than me. If _Super Nanny_ had been on the air when my children were younger, I would probably have watched it for much the same reason.
> 
> And when he says, "Don't try this at home without professional help" I take it literally.


The story that got me hooked is the one about Patti Labelle and her Boerbul ( I think that is how you spell it) Patti had hired a well respected *professional trainer* who had very little luck with the dog. The Trainer was willing to take the dog an adopt it, but felt it was too risky, since she had 8 other dogs at home. Cesar worked with the dog and got it to the point where it was easily handled, and at that point, the *professional trainer* adopted the dog and brought it home.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

I love to watch trainers get their panties in a twist over Cesar. It seems some just can't get over his success (envy, jealousy...hmm.....). A wise person once said, "The only thing you can get two trainers to agree on, is that the third trainer is doing it ALL wrong." And, boy, is there a LOT of truth in that.

I watch Cesar occasionally...I like a lot of what he does. Do I agree with everything...of course not. But I think he has a very good understanding of pack behavior and dog behavior. Anyone who says he doesn't, has never REALLY spent time observing dogs interact as a pack without putting their human inferences on their behavior. Most dogs are freaks or ill-behaved because their owners (or trainers) have made them that way...confused, undersocialized...treated as fuzzy humans rather than DOGS.

Cesars basic messages that you hear over and over again:
*Exercise* - duh...and its' something that most pets don't get enough of.
*Discipline* - if a dog doesn't respect you, they AREN'T going to listen to you. If they think they can negotiate with you, you've lost. They will run right over you. Dogs DO understand heirarchy...leave a pack of dogs on their own and you will see some dogs rise to the top, while others will be happy to follow. I LIKE that Cesar uses the term "pack leader" rather than "alpha." That word is SO overused and has so many meanings to so many different people.
*Affection* - absolutely...but the dog has to earn it by being in control of themselves and behaving in an appropriate manner with humans and other dogs.

*Attitude* - the attitude of the handler is SO important....again, something Cesar stresses with owners. 

At the end of the day...dogs are simple. They are very easy to understand and interact with once you understand them and accept the fact that they are not little fuzzy people. I think Cesar does a good job training the humans to see that....Is he my "preferred" behaviorist...um...probably not. He's up there as a great one, but Suzanne Clothier is who I generally refer people to. I think she really "gets" dogs.



> Dogs do NOT ""alpha role"" eachother.


I think you mean "Alpha ROLL"


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> I love to watch trainers get their panties in a twist over Cesar. It seems some just can't get over his success (envy, jealousy...hmm.....). A wise person once said, "The only thing you can get two trainers to agree on, is that the third trainer is doing it ALL wrong." And, boy, is there a LOT of truth in that.
> 
> I watch Cesar occasionally...I like a lot of what he does. Do I agree with everything...of course not. But I think he has a very good understanding of pack behavior and dog behavior. Anyone who says he doesn't, has never REALLY spent time observing dogs interact as a pack without putting their human inferences on their behavior. Most dogs are freaks or ill-behaved because their owners (or trainers) have made them that way...confused, undersocialized...treated as fuzzy humans rather than DOGS.
> 
> ...


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## ksubdog (Mar 5, 2007)

*hooked on Ceaser*

I'm completely hooked on this guy. Let me say I know nothing about dog training, except I trained my own dog well enough. I read someone else say they tried a couple of his techniques and so have I. I think there's more to it than just "good tv". He's effective. Here is one of my adaptations:

when I walk my dog he use to pull and go everywhere. I'd usually be along for the ride. Then I saw Ceaser on one of his shows talk to the dog while walking and he said let the dog know that they were with you. So here's what I did, when Louie would see something he'd wanna go after like another dog or the stop sign across the street, I'd gently pull on his collar and say, "Louie, i see it, but your with me. We're walking together. good boy." Honestly, it's sounds crazy but it works. He gets it. Our walks are more enjoyable (at least for me!)


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> I love to watch trainers get their panties in a twist over Cesar. It seems some just can't get over his success (envy, jealousy...hmm.....).
> 
> 
> I think you mean "Alpha ROLL"


Ive seen this a few times on other forums, so anyone who disagrees with his methods is jealous or envious, surely other trainers or even dog owners are allowed to form their own opinions and just because they disagree or dislike his methods that is what its based on his methods not some petty motive. I find it insulting to everyone who find CM methods not to their liking that you think its all to do with jealousy and not research or experience.


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> I think you mean "Alpha ROLL"


LOL ya, sorry, it was one of ""those"" days. Fever, puking, coughing up lungs - all the good stuff! Im suprised my post made any sense at all! Feeling lots better today but hey sometimes my fingers get a mind of their own - typos happen

I''m not sure who posted it but someone was sayng how the reason Cesar didnt train the Dalmation pup is because he is a dog rehabilitator and a human trainer?? Thats BS IMO, dog rehabilitating and dog training go hand in hand. Besides, those three things are incredibly simple to teach.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> LOL ya, sorry, it was one of ""those"" days. Fever, puking, coughing up lungs - all the good stuff! Im suprised my post made any sense at all! Feeling lots better today but hey sometimes my fingers get a mind of their own - typos happen
> 
> I''m not sure who posted it but someone was sayng how the reason Cesar didnt train the Dalmation pup is because he is a dog rehabilitator and a human trainer?? Thats BS IMO, dog rehabilitating and dog training go hand in hand. Besides, those three things are incredibly simple to teach.


A dog trainer and a dog behaviorist are not _always_the same thing though. I'm sure if he wanted to, Cesar could have taught that puppy to stop, drop and roll, but what I was saying is that for the purposes of the show he isn't a trainer. I do think what Cesar does is different from what dog trainers do. Dog trainers can be dog rehabilitators (behaviouists), but not all behaviourists focus on training the actual dog. I think a lot of behaviourists teach people how to be in control of their dogs, people who are only trainers are the ones who teach dogs commands; sit, down, stay, etc. All Cesar does is focus on dogs with larger problems than just basic commands. IMO anyone can teach a dog to sit, stay, etc, but behaviourists are called in to deal with problematic behaviour. 

I am not really disagreeing with you 100% because I do think dog rehabilitation and dog training go hand in hand, but 'for the show' Cesar was telling people that he doesn't focus on training dogs specific commands. That was my point from the post anyway. LoL.

BTW, hope you're feeling better! That does NOT sound fun!


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Patti had hired a well respected *professional trainer* who had very little luck with the dog.


That trainer (and I'm using the term VERY loosely here), was most likely not someone who trains dogs for a living, all you had to do is see how her own dogs behaved. It struck me like she was an assistant or something, she mentioned "reading some books" so again, to call that person a trainer is a really far stretch. I think it would be pretty unfair to either gauge Cesar Millan's success with this dog based on the so called trainer's lack of succes, or to judge professional trainers based on this one person of questionalbe credentials.

Granted, he did turn the dog around, and did a wonderful job at it.

As I've said before, I think the guy does great work, and I agree with a lot of what he says, it is the people that all of the sudden are out there giving advice based on what they saw on TV that irritates me.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Admittedly, I think I am the only dog person who has never sat down and watched one of his shows. I'm indifferent. I train my dogs the way that works for me and my dogs. I have no idea if that's the way he does things or not. 

In general there is more than one way to train a dog and I think people forget that. I don't think that just because someone does something differently than you do that they have no legitimacy. Obviously some training methods should not be used, but not all differences are that important and people get into major fights about pointless things imo. 

So yes, I have no opinion on him at all. Maybe one day I'll watch his show just so I can see what all the fuss is about on these forums.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

lurcherloopy said:


> Ive seen this a few times on other forums, so anyone who disagrees with his methods is jealous or envious, surely other trainers or even dog owners are allowed to form their own opinions and just because they disagree or dislike his methods that is what its based on his methods not some petty motive. I find it insulting to everyone who find CM methods not to their liking that you think its all to do with jealousy and not research or experience.


Yeah, I've seen it too, a LOT. The second someone disagrees or even questions the guy, some people take it as a personal insult. I've also seen a lot of people that more than liking the guy they have idolized him into someone uncapable of being wrong. Anything this guys says is automatically true to these sort of people, instead of actualy thinking about what he says, they immediately agree with him and tell themselves that they actually digested what he said.

All this extreme fanatism takes away from the primary objective, which is to help dogs & their owners. 

There's a number of trainers I like and I've read stuff from, but I don't think there's a single one I can say I agree with 100%. At the end of the day, you read, you think, you use what makes sense to you and you discard the rest. Just don't predispose yourself into thinking that something is right/wrong simply because of who said it.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I always wonder why people feel the need to debate Cesar anyway? What about all the other dog behaviourists? They all do the same thing in their own ways and no one discusses them?

Also, who is idolizing him in here? That's weird. I stand behind some of his methods, but I don't just agree with what is said because Cesar is saying it....I don't agree with every little thing he says and does....I don't even think anyone in here does? I don't know I like to take little bits of information from all trainers and behaviourists and add them to my own way of teaching my dog. All dogs are different anyway.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> I always wonder why people feel the need to debate Cesar anyway? What about all the other dog behaviourists? They all do the same thing in their own ways and no one discusses them?


For one, Cesar Millan is the one with the most exposure to the public, before he was on TV most people either didn't even know what a behaviourist was or thought it was just for rich and eccentric people. 

I never said that anyone in this particular forum is fanatic, which actually is a good thing. You should read other forums and whenever the topic some up, it's a dead givaway that the discussion is about to turn into some pointless argument.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

eley said:


> For one, Cesar Millan is the one with the most exposure to the public, before he was on TV most people either didn't even know what a behaviourist was or thought it was just for rich and eccentric people.
> 
> I never said that anyone in this particular forum is fanatic, which actually is a good thing. You should read other forums and whenever the topic some up, it's a dead givaway that the discussion is about to turn into some pointless argument.


I think it's a little creepy for someone to actually idolize Cesar. I mean I like the guy enough, but I still don't agree with everything he says. I mean I believe he's a good bevaviourist, but I think you always have to keep in mind that it is a tv show and not everything may be as accurate as you think. People are baffling sometimes though. Truly baffling...but hey it makes for a good laugh when people are so darn gullible.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

I think alot of the Cesar bashing comes from people that are jealous of his success....


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

lurcherloopy said:


> Ive seen this a few times on other forums, so anyone who disagrees with his methods is jealous or envious, surely other trainers or even dog owners are allowed to form their own opinions and just because they disagree or dislike his methods that is what its based on his methods not some petty motive. I find it insulting to everyone who find CM methods not to their liking that you think its all to do with jealousy and not research or experience.


I never said ALL...I said SOME. And some is accurate, in my experience. People can have whatever opinion they want of Cesar or any other trainer or behaviorist. I never said they can't or shouldn't. There's more than one way to train a dog, ya know.

In *MY* opinion, anyone who completely discounts everything Cesar says or does is no one I'd want to talk seriously about dogs or training/behavior...be offended if you want....but that's MY opinion.

I watch his show if I happen to pass by it while flipping channels. I've seen some stories where, quite frankly, I thought he as off in his assessment or there could have been better methods in helping the dog or the owners. But, as a whole, I think he hits the mark much more often than he misses....and that's valuable. Too many trainers make dogs and dog behavior sound complicated...and that can be overwhelming to your average dog owner who wants a well behaved companion...they aren't interested in an obedience or agility champ. Cesar keeps it nice and simple...as it should be.

What I don't understand is why some dismiss him completely and with such vehemence and anger (not nec on this board, but on others). To me, that's almost as bad, or worse than someone who follows him blindly. 



> I''m not sure who posted it but someone was sayng how the reason Cesar didnt train the Dalmation pup is because he is a dog rehabilitator and a human trainer?? Thats BS IMO, dog rehabilitating and dog training go hand in hand. Besides, those three things are incredibly simple to teach.


Hope you feel better soon, OC....but in response to this. Behavior modification and dog training are NOT the same thing. Honestly, I don't give two hoots if my dogs sit or shake or roll-over or high-five or sit-stay for 5 seconds before they down-stay for 10 seconds before they retrieve the red barbell...or whatever obedience tricks people are doing with their dogs**. Quite frankly, I want well behaved dogs that walk nicely on a leash and socialize well with people and other dogs. Basic things like "wait" "no" "stay" can be taught by just about any yahoo with two licks of dog sense.

I think Cesar proves that you DON'T have to have an obedience champ to have a nice, well-adjusted, well-behaved dog

**Disclaimer: I think obedience is wonderful and I think in many cases it can really enhance the dog/owner bond. If it's something the owner and dog enjoy, them more power to them! Personally, I hate it and my dogs find it pointless and beneath them most of the time (gotta love sighthounds  ) I am constantly amazed at what some trainers are able to train dogs to do. But I believe traditional "dog training/obedience" and behavior modification are separate entities. Heck, my own well-behaved, non-obedience trained dogs are proof of that.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

lovemygreysl: Again great post! And great explanation of the difference between trainind and behaviour modification....I think you definitely showed me up with that one!


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

Ermmmm, I never said they were the same, I said they go hand in hand  I mean if you can teach a dog-aggressive dog to ignore other dogs, why cant you train him to sit? If you can teach a dog not to pull why cant you teach him stay? I understand their differences, heck I deal with and do each all the time, but like I said before, they do go hand in hand. If you understand one its not a far reach to understand the other.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> Ermmmm, I never said they were the same, I said they go hand in hand  I mean if you can teach a dog-aggressive dog to ignore other dogs, why cant you train him to sit? If you can teach a dog not to pull why cant you teach him stay? I understand their differences, heck I deal with and do each all the time, but like I said before, they do go hand in hand. If you understand one its not a far reach to understand the other.


What they are saying is that Cesar has more to do than spend his time teaching a dog to sit, when anyone with an IQ higher than their resting pulse rate should have no problem doing that. It's like asking a surgeon to give hair cuts.


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## thomasina (Nov 3, 2006)

Just for the record: I think Cesar Millan rocks. Not only does he do a great job with the dogs he works with, but he's also an awesome person, who has his heart in the right place.

There will always be those "know it alls" who will take something very positive and try to turn it into something bad, like Cesar's training methods.


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## lawlady (Feb 4, 2007)

I, too, had no idea that there was so much controversy regarding Cesar Milan. I've seen his show many times, and he makes sense more often than he doesn't. When we first got our dog a year ago, i started watching Cesar. His message was so simple i was surprised that my common sense hadn't figured it out already. "Excersise, discipline, affection", in that order. "Duh, i thought to myself! Why didn't I think of that on my own?" Maybe i've just had a limited experience with dogs, but he taught me much. Or maybe i'm more like the typical dog-owner, who just deals with their own pets on the day to day basis, and have never entered the 'dog-training world'. He speaks to the average dog-owner, not those with 20 years experience with animals. I think he's amazing. 

And of course, remember this is a tv show...they aren't going to show the cases that he admitidly could not rehabilitate. Although i wish they would.

Linda and Zavie


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

Captbob said:


> I think alot of the Cesar bashing comes from people that are jealous of his success....





thomasina said:


> Just for the record: I think Cesar Millan rocks. Not only does he do a great job with the dogs he works with, but he's also an awesome person, who has his heart in the right place.
> 
> There will always be those "know it alls" who will take something very positive and try to turn it into something bad, like Cesar's training methods.


Right so anyone who has a differing opinion is either jealous or a know it all? 

Thomasina do you know him personally?


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

lurcherloopy said:


> Right so anyone who has a differing opinion is either jealous or a know it all?
> 
> Thomasina do you know him personally?


I don't, do you?


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## opossum (Feb 20, 2007)

lurcherloopy said:


> Right so anyone who has a differing opinion is either jealous or a know it all?
> 
> Thomasina do you know him personally?


Having a differing opinion is not the same as bashing.


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## thomasina (Nov 3, 2006)

lurcherloopy said:


> Right so anyone who has a differing opinion is either jealous or a know it all?
> 
> Thomasina do you know him personally?


Easy there tiger, that was merely my opinion. I didn't say anything about jealousy. It just seems to me when someone does well - the bashing starts, kind of like all those Barney haters out there. Barney is a great show for kids and very educational, however so many people have nothing but bad things to say about Barney. Same thing with Cesar. To me Cesar Millan is the equivalent of Nanny 911. He works with problem dogs as Nanny 911 works with problem children. In both cases it is for the most part bad parenting and bad pet ownership. JMO


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I don't think it's fair to say that someone if merely "bashing" because their opinion doesn't agree with Cesar Millan. That's ridiculous. How come anyone who likes Cesar can say whatever they want in his defense, but if anyone questions him they are "bashing" him. It's called a debate people! Just because someone has a different opinion that yours doesn't mean they are trying to force you to agree with them or that they are being rude, and bashing your ideas or CM himself. I think the problem here is that people don't understand how an argument works. It's happened with a lot of other threads and I don't understand it. I am not pinpointing anyone here, I am just saying that it's rude to say someone is simply bashing CM because they don't agree with his methods. Personally, I like Cesar and agree with most of his methods, but if you don't then you don't and I for one think you have a right to that opinion...and I think you are debating, not bashing....there's a difference!


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

thomasina said:


> Easy there tiger, that was merely my opinion. I didn't say anything about jealousy. It just seems to me when someone does well - the bashing starts, kind of like all those Barney haters out there. Barney is a great show for kids and very educational, however so many people have nothing but bad things to say about Barney. Same thing with Cesar. To me Cesar Millan is the equivalent of Nanny 911. He works with problem dogs as Nanny 911 works with problem children. In both cases it is for the most part bad parenting and bad pet ownership. JMO


But why are people who disagree with methods used on these programmes 'know it alls' for having that opinion, I suppose I just dont get the name calling.



Captbob said:


> I don't, do you?


No I dont, I also dont understand why you think Im jealous of the guy just because I dont agree with everything he does. 

Im sorry but its a TV programme and as has been said Im sure we dont see half of what actually goes on. We have a similar thing over here and I know for a fact that the editing can have a remarkable effect on what goes on in reality. This blind conviction that anyone with bad things to say about his methods are jealous justs seems rather extreme and a little like censorship.


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## opossum (Feb 20, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> Anybody that believes his crap and thinks highly of him does not understand dog behaviour and should not be training any dogs - ever!


Things like this look more like bashing than a "differing opinion" to me. I don't think disagreeing with Cesar makes one jealous or a know-it-all, but if you disagree with something he does, explain how you would do it different. That's a differing opinion.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

> Im sorry but its a TV programme and as has been said Im sure we dont see half of what actually goes on. We have a similar thing over here and I know for a fact that the editing can have a remarkable effect on what goes on in reality. This blind conviction that anyone with bad things to say about his methods are jealous justs seems rather extreme and a little like censorship.


You have GOT to be kidding me  Censorship???? <<stifling a ROFL>> You seem to take a lot of people's opinions personally, when there is no specific direction in their statement to YOU. I haven't read anyone post an absolute in this thread (except to denigrate CM)...what I have seen posted are things like SOME people or MANY people or OFTEN...no absolutes there...if you fall into the category that doesn't apply, then fine...whatever...get over it! No one appears to be talking about you specifically.


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## Cbaker (Sep 8, 2006)

OC_Spirit said:


> Ermmmm, I never said they were the same, I said they go hand in hand  I mean if you can teach a dog-aggressive dog to ignore other dogs, why cant you train him to sit? If you can teach a dog not to pull why cant you teach him stay? I understand their differences, heck I deal with and do each all the time, but like I said before, they do go hand in hand. If you understand one its not a far reach to understand the other.


Well first of all its TV, and publicity for that trainer (Who trained the dog for garfield) is good for him. Why would ceasar want to do it ? Training takes time and it would take weeks to teach the dog the routine of stop... drop... and roll.

Your on TV, you have a schedule . You dont really have time to teach that type of stuff. Ceasar does use many methods that are very beneficial for animals at the end of their road. There are many trainers that will resort to using compulsion techniques to prevent re-homing or being put down when positive reinforcement and negative reinforcment arnt viable and have failed.

Im sure you have plenty of experience, but seriously within that vast wealth of experience you should know that these tactics DO work but are not for EVERY dog. If you care to disagree please explain Koehler's numerous championships in the ring. These arnt the *PREFERED METHODS.* But none the less, they do work for *some *animals. 

Many trainers wont deal with bully breeds in a group enviroment due to the fact that quite a few people freak out around them, heck petsmart declined to take my neighbors pitbull for obediance training because the other people were complaining how mean he looked. I really do admire the dedication Mr. Milan has for those amazing breeds. Ceasar in multiple episodes uses positive reinforcment for the dog, ex: the episode of the dog not wanting to be bathed. He used treats and praise as the method to progress through the exercise. 

As for only using fear? Flooding is a effective tactic for behavior modification in the event that a dog is still displaying major stress responses to the event. (Ie running away, ducking, cowering, turning away, dragging along ect)

If your unable to break the behavior threshold of the fear, you will have to press forward to foce the animal to adapt and overcome. You only have so many options, and with his time being somewhat short he normally resorts to flooding vs. positive reinforcment and slow + gradual decreases in distance from the fear source.


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> You have GOT to be kidding me  Censorship???? <<stifling a ROFL>> You seem to take a lot of people's opinions personally, when there is no specific direction in their statement to YOU. I haven't read anyone post an absolute in this thread (except to denigrate CM)...what I have seen posted are things like SOME people or MANY people or OFTEN...no absolutes there...if you fall into the category that doesn't apply, then fine...whatever...get over it! No one appears to be talking about you specifically.


Im sorry if my posts offend you so much I realise we have had a difference of opinion in previously but Im not sure where else Ive taken ‘a lot of people’s opinions personally’. I am aware that no one was targeting me specifically but anyone who does not agree with CM, I was merely questioning why people think those who do not follow CM’s methods must be know it alls or jealous. 

Again I can only apologise if you find my posts offensive or tedious, I was merely giving my opinion and questioning others opinions, I totally respect your right to your views and your right to post on threads but do not like to resort to name calling. 

I am trying very hard to get over it – but Im not sure what it is!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

This is a prime example of why I don't pay any attention to the dog whisperer.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I like the Dog Whisperer, but I don't really think it's much cause for debate...at least not a very good debate....you either like it or you don't.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

lurcherloopy said:


> But why are people who disagree with methods used on these programmes 'know it alls' for having that opinion, I suppose I just dont get the name calling.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, if you go back and read my post, you will notice that I did not name anyone, I just made a statement, which I believe to be true, that alot of the bashing on Cesar on many Dog Forums, not just this one, is done by people that think they know everything about training dogs. They may have a background of housebreaking a couple of dogs and teaching them to sit, stay, heel, and now they talk about how Cesar doesn't know what he is doing. Prior to watching my first Cesar show, from the posts that I have read on a few forums, I expected Cesar to be hanging dogs, beating them, and using electric shock, because the people bashing his methods kept mentioning that he "was so cruel to the dogs." I have friends that watched his show, that are avid dog owners, and when I would ask them about the " cruel" methods " that Cesar used, they would look at me like I had lost mind. 

A couple of months ago, I got Direct TV, and since then I have watched many of his shows........ Guess what, my friends were right, there is no cruelty that I see, and all this Cesar bashing that I have been reading on the forums, turns out to be totally false.....That is what bothers me, that people with little or no qualifications in what Cesar is accomplishing, are constantly knocking his methods. If they are so much better than Cesar, it would seem that they should get their own show, and show the world how great they are. Somehow, I don't see that happening any time soon.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Captbob said:


> That is what bothers me, that people with little or no qualifications in what Cesar is accomplishing, are constantly knocking his methods. If they are so much better than Cesar, it would seem that they should get their own show, and show the world how great they are. Somehow, I don't see that happening any time soon.



Agreed!!!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Finding a good trainer is no different than finding a good breeder...you have to do your homework. Just as having a recognizable TV show does not preclude that Cesar is or is not a good trainer, nor does the absence of a TV show preclude that another trainer is or is not a good trainer. Some excellent trainers are not make for TV, and would prefer to stay that way. Personally, I need credentials...Cesar as far as I know is a self made dog psychologist. I think that's wonderful, however, I need credentials. The proof may be in the pudding, but for my money, I want both...credentials and pudding. This says nothing about a like or dislike for Cesar, but for goodness sakes people, it's just a TV show. A TV show that is driven by ratings. Am I the only one who notice that after the incident with that lab Cesar started to employ more positve reinforcement in his show? Like I stated originally, there's nothing new or inventive about his techniques. Maybe the criticism comes because he does not convey why alternate, and equally effective, approaches are not used? He'd probably need a bigger paycheck and an hour long show to do that though. Not sure, but don't care as long as you give your dog what it needs to be happy and healthy. If anything, the show does highlight how ignorant dog owners can be.


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> I never said ALL...I said SOME. And some is accurate, in my experience. People can have whatever opinion they want of Cesar or any other trainer or behaviorist. I never said they can't or shouldn't. There's more than one way to train a dog, ya know.
> 
> In *MY* opinion, anyone who completely discounts everything Cesar says or does is no one I'd want to talk seriously about dogs or training/behavior...be offended if you want....but that's MY opinion.
> 
> ...


Fine before I finish on here can I just say I thought this was good response to this thread. And as for them greyhounds shhhh it is beneath them and way to energetic.




Captbob said:


> I think alot of the Cesar bashing comes from people that are jealous of his success....





Captbob said:


> First of all, if you go back and read my post, you will notice that I did not name anyone, I just made a statement, which I believe to be true, that alot of the bashing on Cesar on many Dog Forums, not just this one, is done by people that think they know everything about training dogs. They may have a background of housebreaking a couple of dogs and teaching them to sit, stay, heel, and now they talk about how Cesar doesn't know what he is doing.
> .


I have read your comment and you say they are jealous, now you say its because they are inexperienced or have little or no dog knowledge. Yes its a statement and rather a generalisation, however, if thats your opinion that other trainers are not as knowledgeable fine. 

I really didnt come on here to cause upset or arguement and if my opinions offend again I apologise and will be perhaps a bit more careful voicing them in the future. I can only hold out an olive branch and in my defence perhaps its a cultural thing.

I do agree with the above post from what Ive heard and seen it seems he has changed his methods to more positive ways (I think we possibly get his older shows here).


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If anything, the show does highlight how ignorant dog owners can be.


Awesome point Curbside! I think that is the best part of the show. I mean of all the episodes I have seen (which is quite a few) most of them have really shown that these owners know nothing about dogs. I mean each episode gives the disclaimer that you shouldn't try these techniques without consulting a behaviourist, so if nothing else I only hope more dog owners like the ones in the show can learn something about dogs in general.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> And your training background to justify your negative remarks is what? I hear people bashing Cesar all the time, but everyone I have met that doesn't like him, has had zero experience in any kind of complex dog training, so I am skeptical of his critics.



I've been training dogs since I was 15. I'm now 40. I used adversive techniques I was taught until I found better ways. The fact is, the types of techniques Milan uses often fail fearful or aggressive dogs. The dogs repress until they 'pop off' and do severe damage. I've explained in other threads dealing with this subject how I feel and even stated the science behind my feelings. I will continue to use the techniques endorsed by people who have been behaviorist since Milan was in diapers and are certified Veterinarians (Ian Dunbar) and have proven succeses.


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## OC_Spirit (Feb 6, 2007)

Cbaker said:


> If you care to disagree please explain Koehler's numerous championships in the ring. These arnt the *PREFERED METHODS.* But none the less, they do work for *some *animals.


I own his book  And I actually agree with some of Koehler''s methods and have loosely added it to my training method for some dogs. 

What I dont agree with Cesar is his Alpha rolling.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> What I dont agree with Cesar is his Alpha rolling.


I do watch the Dog Whisperer sometimes but I am pretty sure I have never seen this Alpha rolling...is that where you get on top of the dog to take control of them? I was under the impression he hasn't done it, or VERY rarely has had to...I am just confused as to what it is exactly...


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## opossum (Feb 20, 2007)

OC_Spirit said:


> I own his book  And I actually agree with some of Koehler''s methods and have loosely added it to my training method for some dogs.
> 
> What I dont agree with Cesar is his Alpha rolling.


I haven't seen all the shows, but of the ones I have seen, I never saw him alpha roll.


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## setsuai (Mar 7, 2007)

Cesar Millan is a professional in dog behavior. I think he's one of the best out there, and the one I listen to more than anyone else.



CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> I do watch the Dog Whisperer sometimes but I am pretty sure I have never seen this Alpha rolling...is that where you get on top of the dog to take control of them? I was under the impression he hasn't done it, or VERY rarely has had to...I am just confused as to what it is exactly...


That is not "alpha rolling". Turning the dog on its side makes the dog submit to you, so that it knows who is boss. Cesar Millan only does that when the dog attacks someone or another dog, and it is VERY affective to make the dog stop its aggressive behavior.
I think that "alpha rolling" is just the act of being the pack leader.
How could you not agree with that? If you are not the pack leader, then your dog will become that and take control of your family. No one would want THAT.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

PACK LEADERS DO NOT "ALPHA ROLL"!!! The only time a dog OR wolf rolls another dog or wolf onto it's back or side is WHEN IT INTENDS TO KILL IT!!!! This has been proven by science and research. People get bitten all the time imitating Ceasar doing this, including CHIDREN. What Ceasar does has NO basis in science, it's just what has been done for many years because WE HUMANS have misinterpreted the SUBMISSIVE roll GIVEN VOLUTARILY by lower ranking pack members. Please do some research on animal behavior before thinking Ceasar has all the answers. The fact is he has caused as many issues as he's resolved. You just don't get to see his failures


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

setsuai said:


> That is not "alpha rolling". Turning the dog on its side makes the dog submit to you, so that it knows who is boss. Cesar Millan only does that when the dog attacks someone or another dog, and it is VERY affective to make the dog stop its aggressive behavior.
> I think that "alpha rolling" is just the act of being the pack leader.
> How could you not agree with that? If you are not the pack leader, then your dog will become that and take control of your family. No one would want THAT.


If I were to tell you that the people credited with discovering the "alpha roll" now regret instructing people on this technique, would your opinion of this move change? If I were to tell you that dogs behavior does not exactly follow wolf behavior, would your opinion change? This is the problem with Cesar's show. Too many people take what he does at face value, and do not understand why he would choose this technique over another (he may not know other techniques)...thus the disclaimer to remove liability. Again, alpha rolling is nice for TV, but it has very little place in dog training.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Curbside, I have explained the difference until I'm blue in the face. It makes NO differance. These are the same people that think you can actually tone you tummy using an electric diode device designed to do muscle massage in rehab situations.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> Curbside, I have explained the difference until I'm blue in the face. It makes NO differance. These are the same people that think you can actually tone you tummy using an electric diode device designed to do muscle massage in rehab situations.


You mean I watched that whole infommertial at 2:AM for nothing?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

YES


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I don't know much about the Alpha Roll other than I haven't actually seen Cesar do it even on fairly aggressive dogs, but I can disagree on one thing you said and that is 



> The fact is he has caused as many issues as he's resolved.


That may be true...I haven't seen any examples of the issues that he has caused, but you didn't give any facts so I am not going to take your word for it w/o facts. But what about even just his own pack he has helped? I don't think I know many people who have a dog park with 20 or more Pit Bulls and other "aggressive" breeds in it at the same time...what about all those rehabilitated dogs? I'm not trying to cause a fight here and I hope this doesn't offend you, but I am interested to know what "issues" it is that he caused that outweigh his victories....


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> Curbside, I have explained the difference until I'm blue in the face. It makes NO differance. These are the same people that think you can actually tone you tummy using an electric diode device designed to do muscle massage in rehab situations.



you...you...you mean....those things don't work?

Lets face it, some of reasons SOME people find themselves agreeing with Cesar Millan are very plain and simple. 

One, he's on tv, easy as that, you sit down, you watch tv for an hour and you have your dose of dog psycology as he calls it. The "as seen on tv" factor whether you like it or not, is apealing to a large number of people who would otherwise have no interest whatsoever in dog behaviour. 

Two, since he's self taught he doesn't use fancy three dollar words like "possitive re-inforcement" "learned helplessness" or whatever it is they teach in dog behaviour school. He is REALLY good at talking to people in terms they feel comfortable with, and whether you like the guy or not, it is hard to deny he draws attention to whatever he has to say, he is a great communicator.

A lot of the knowledge he has is something a lot of us kind of thought or at least started to develop in the same direction he has, so, when he comes and elaborates on things we sort of infered, we feel validated, and EVERYBODY likes to be told they are right.

I have noticed that among his die hard fans there are few who have researched dog behaviour beyond what Cesar Millan teaches, at least with the same devotion and paying the same attention. He happens to be their sole source of information. Granted there are a lot of reputable trainers and people with experience that agree with him to an extent.

A lot of people think they have no reason to read or research beyond him, because what he says makes sense to him, so, if option #1 worked for you why bother looking at #2 or #3?.

And, as I said in an earlier post, there's the whole fad issue, since "dog whisperer" went on the air, there's a bunch of people that all of the sudden are interested in dog behaviour. I'm not saying that the awareness he creates is a bad thing perse, on the contrary, people need to be aware of their dog's needs and that there ARE solutions to a lot of common problems. But, a few years ago, when Jaques Cousteau had his show on tv, all of the sudden all the kids wanted to be marine biologists, how long did that last?, some time after that it was Carl Sagan with Cosmos, future astronomists and cosmologists poped up everywhere, I wonder how many of those followed thru.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I have given facts in three other threads. His publicists and the National Geographic Channel do an excellant job of keeping his troubles quiet. I prefer to try to educate people on the science behind other ways of training and why they are better.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

I think personally it is ignorant of anyone to follow something blindly. I was always taught that if I had a teacher who said something I didn't necessarily agree with I should research it and never just take what someone said to be true. Just because someone on tv tells us that something is the right way to do something, it's ALWAYS a good idea to do more research for yourself. I mean if they made a show about how smoking is actually good for you...would you start smoking or look at the facts? It's just sad that people take everything people on tv say and apply it to their lives!


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## vedo (Nov 13, 2006)

My german shepherd would really like to be the boss...really. He was/and still does tests me. I find that Cesar's information about the alpha dog is true. With such a large, hyper dog, with schutzhund background, I need to be the one in control. Even though my dog was raised with all positive encouragement type training....he needs to know who is in control......like kids probably. Also Cesar's information about excercise is correct. I see neighborhood dogs tied or kept in pens...and all they do is bark all day.....wander back and forth...dig...Vedo is excercised at leased two times a day...he never barks for nothing.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> I have given facts in three other threads. His publicists and the National Geographic Channel do an excellant job of keeping his troubles quiet. I prefer to try to educate people on the science behind other ways of training and why they are better.


well, I'm guessing that if you give facts, the answer you'll hear from some people will be something along the lines of "do you have proof?", there is a subset of his fan base that more than fans are culties, but then again, that comes with the exposure he has. I mean, there's a bunch of people that still think Paris Hilton is the best thing to happen to mankind after electricity. 

As I've said many, many times, I have no problem with the guy. I have a problem with the people that have idolized him and have started to give advice based on what they've seen in his show, that is DANGEROUS to say the very least. Sort of like giving legal advice after watching a few episodes of Law and Order.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

eley said:


> well, I'm guessing that if you give facts, the answer you'll hear from some people will be something along the lines of "do you have proof?", there is a subset of his fan base that more than fans are culties, but then again, that comes with the exposure he has. I mean, there's a bunch of people that still think Paris Hilton is the best thing to happen to mankind after electricity.
> 
> As I've said many, many times, I have no problem with the guy. I have a problem with the people that have idolized him and have started to give advice based on what they've seen in his show, that is DANGEROUS to say the very least. Sort of like giving legal advice after watching a few episodes of Law and Order.



I like that Law and Order thing btw....fantastic comparison!!

But why would someone ask for proof if she gave the facts from a credited source? I am just interested in what actual facts are?


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> I like that Law and Order thing btw....fantastic comparison!!
> 
> But why would someone ask for proof if she gave the facts from a credited source? I am just interested in what actual facts are?


Oh, trust me, there are people (you've read from them  ) that no matter what, they would not believe anything that implied wrong doing from their idols. You show them a news article, they'll tell you the reporter is biased; show them a picture: it was doctored or taken out of context; show them a video: "that's not what he's doing"; show them the person actually doing things wrong: "oh, you just don't get it", they will always have a justification.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

http://thebark.typepad.com/barking/2006/05/cesar_milan_sue.html

http://www.iaabc.org/articles/dog_whisperer.htm

http://www.stevedalepetworld.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=203&Itemid=71

These are by PROFESSIONAL trainers certified by an association that is recognized AROUND THE WORLD. It explains it FAR better than I can right now. The Lawsuit is still pending. I mean get real, using a CHOKE CHAIN to fasten a dog to a treadmill and excercising the dog until it stumbled and got choked out? This Is NOT how you deal with a FEARFUL dog.


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## Cbaker (Sep 8, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> These are by PROFESSIONAL trainers certified by an association that is recognized AROUND THE WORLD. It explains it FAR better than I can right now. The Lawsuit is still pending. I mean get real, using a CHOKE CHAIN to fasten a dog to a treadmill and excercising the dog until it stumbled and got choked out? This Is NOT how you deal with a FEARFUL dog.


On May 5, 2006, a television producer for the TV series 8 Simple Rules filed a lawsuit against Millan, claiming that his labrador retriever had been seriously injured while at Millan's training facility during an exercise routine on a treadmill.National Geographic released statements to prove that Millan was not present at the facility at the time of the alleged incident.

Hate to break it to you, but if you didn't notice, this wasn't Ceasars doing. It was a worker at his center. He just gets to take the fall because the guys didn't follow directions and he owns the place. 

The dog wasnt on a treadmill to combat fear, so I don't understand your comment there. The dog was being exercised so that they can maintain a low energy level throughout the center. If you have a campful of overly excited children they would get into trouble, the same applys with a group of 30 dogs. If they arn't tired they will play fight, run around to much and just cause problems. 

As for him not being professional, Cesar Milan is a member of the IACP http://www.dogpro.org/ maybe its just me, but their standards are pretty well rounded for induction into the association.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> http://thebark.typepad.com/barking/2006/05/cesar_milan_sue.html
> 
> http://www.iaabc.org/articles/dog_whisperer.htm
> 
> ...


You have no proof of what you are saying about this incident, and I think you are just spreading a bunch of misinformation. That's not very nice , quite frankly, and I think if someone did that about you, you would be pretty upset. So why don't you " get real" and not make up stuff.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> You have no proof of what you are saying about this incident, and I think you are just spreading a bunch of misinformation. That's not very nice , quite frankly, and I think if someone did that about you, you would be pretty upset. So why don't you " get real" and not make up stuff.


Well, Cesar's training facility is being accused of placing a choke collar on the dog and overworking him on a treadmill...that's a fact. Whether their is burden of proof, I dunno, I'm not on the jury. But if it is in fact true that the choke chain was being used, regarless of the activity, the choke chain is out of place in dealing with a fearful dog...IMO, that's a fact too. Is it misinformation? Too early to tell, but if she's right, will you acknowledge it? Probably not because we'll never know. My guess is, it will be settled out of court. Regardless if an assistant did it or not, someone is responsible for the injuries. If I had a surgery and the doc lets a nurse sew me up, but oops we forgot a scalpel in you, darn straight I'm suing the doc, the nurse, and the hospital. That's the way it works people, so "get real".


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Well, Cesar's training facility is being accused of placing a choke collar on the dog and overworking him on a treadmill...that's a fact. Whether their is burden of proof, I dunno, I'm not on the jury. But if it is in fact true that the choke chain was being used, regarless of the activity, the choke chain is out of place in dealing with a fearful dog...IMO, that's a fact too. Is it misinformation? Too early to tell, but if she's right, will you acknowledge it? Probably not because we'll never know. My guess is, it will be settled out of court. Regardless if an assistant did it or not, someone is responsible for the injuries. If I had a surgery and the doc lets a nurse sew me up, but oops we forgot a scalpel in you, darn straight I'm suing the doc, the nurse, and the hospital. That's the way it works people, so "get real".


You have no actual proof of any of your assertions regarding Cesar, so I think that the "get real" suggestion might be better applied to yourself. Your "guess" and your "opinion" doesn't hold any water in the legal system.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> You have no actual proof of any of your assertions regarding Cesar, so I think that the "get real" suggestion might be better applied to yourself. Your "guess" and your "opinion" doesn't hold any water in the legal system.


That's funny because I didn't attempt to make any assertions nor did I attempt to provide any proof of Cesar's guilt or innocence...however, it is a fact that Cesar, Inc. is accused of what I mentioned. So what exactly did you miss? And I would agree that my opinion and guess have nothing to do with the legal system, nor do I want it to. But what exactly does that have to do with my point? 

I'm guessing pragmatism doesn't come to all of us easily.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

That poor dog! However, while I think what happened to the dog on the treadmill is awful, how does that discredit Cesar? The article says that 'someone' at Cesar's facility left the dog unattended on a treadmill. Granted from a legal standpoint it probably will be on Cesar's head if it goes through court because it is HIS facility, but Cesar has said before that you never leave a dog unattended on a treadmill....that to me is common sense. When watching the show I've seen him put many dog's on a treadmill and many, many people have used a treadmill for a dog before Cesar started to. It's not like this is a new revelation that CM came up with....he rarely even has the dog on a leash when he has it on a treadmill, and I haven't seen him tie the dog to one...although I am not saying he hasn't, maybe he has. As for the other two articles...those are opinion. 

"Children who view the program may try to attempt the same techniques with their own pets and could be injured." (http://www.iaabc.org/articles/dog_whisperer.htm)

These seemed to be the main point of this article...and that's BS. While, yeah, it would be bad for a child to try these techniques on a dog, it could be dangerous for ANYONE to try these techniques on a dog! This has nothing to do with SM himself at all. IMO, this comes down to children not monitoring their children's tv. If my kids were watching CM I would make damn sure they knew not to EVER try any of these techniques on a dog. If you can't be there to tell them that, then the Dog Whisperer is not a show your kids should be watching! IMO, these two articles are simply someone else's (be it a supposed professional or not) opinion. 


I was excited to see some of these facts that discredited CM, but honestly these were not very good examples of that. If you can show me something that discredits him, then by all means I might think about changing my opinion of him. I really couldn't care less whether someone likes CM or not, I enjoy the show, but I do not idolize him or anything like that....I usually don't even join in these discussions...but boredom at work has forced me to get involved.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

In a recent interview Cesar actually talked about that lawsuit, apparently he was not in the premises when it happened and he told whoever was interviewing him that the person responsible isn't his employee, just a freind that on ocassion uses his facilities. Apparently since the incident he no longer allows outsiders to use his facilities.


Now...what was I saying a few posts ago about his hard core fans being overly skeptical about any negative news about him?...........


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

eley said:


> Now...what was I saying a few posts ago about his hard core fans being overly skeptical about any negative news about him?...........


You aren't talking about me right? I hope not!  I started to feel kind of hypocritcal posting that kind of response....but I think what I said was true. I mean if someone game some hard evidence that CM had done something wrong, or that dicredited him then I'd of course have no reaction to back him up. I'd have no reason to! But the articles that she gave as as "facts" just were not facts. I read both the articles and they were people's opinions on CM. I mean the only part that could have made any impact on dangerous behavious would be the kid on the skateboard and those things...but other than that it was all opinion and no fact. And as already discussed the treadmill incident cannot PROVE that CM had anything to do with it, so that's not a good example either. Don't get the wrong idea because I am not one of those people who WILL REFUSE to believe anything bad about CM, but if you don't give me facts why would I take it seriously? I am just one of those people who don't like debates where people cannot reliably give some actual proof to back their claims up.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> You aren't talking about me right? I hope not!  I started to feel kind of hypocritcal posting that kind of response....but I think what I said was true. I mean if someone game some hard evidence that CM had done something wrong, or that dicredited him then I'd of course have no reaction to back him up. I'd have no reason to! But the articles that she gave as as "facts" just were not facts. I read both the articles and they were people's opinions on CM. I mean the only part that could have made any impact on dangerous behavious would be the kid on the skateboard and those things...but other than that it was all opinion and no fact. And as already discussed the treadmill incident cannot PROVE that CM had anything to do with it, so that's not a good example either. Don't get the wrong idea because I am not one of those people who WILL REFUSE to believe anything bad about CM, but if you don't give me facts why would I take it seriously? I am just one of those people who don't like debates where people cannot reliably give some actual proof to back their claims up.


No, it wasn't you who I was talking about. It's pretty clear to me that you will read and use common sense to get your own opinion about things.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

eley said:


> No, it wasn't you who I was talking about. It's pretty clear to me that you will read and use common sense to get your own opinion about things.


Okay!  Don't want people to think that I am a CM fanatic...they're scary!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Cbaker said:


> On May 5, 2006, a television producer for the TV series 8 Simple Rules filed a lawsuit against Millan, claiming that his labrador retriever had been seriously injured while at Millan's training facility during an exercise routine on a treadmill.National Geographic released statements to prove that Millan was not present at the facility at the time of the alleged incident.
> 
> Hate to break it to you, but if you didn't notice, this wasn't Ceasars doing. It was a worker at his center. He just gets to take the fall because the guys didn't follow directions and he owns the place.
> 
> ...


Milan is the owner of the facility, HE sets the guidelines for how dogs are treated in HIS facility PERIOD. It's like a saying a Commanding officer isn't responsible for the conduct of his soldiers. Even if he's not around, he is still responsible.

I never said he wasn't a professional dog trainer, he trains for money, therefore he's a professional.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

No one is saying it isn't his responsibility. Of course anyone using _his_ facility is his responsibility. Even if it's not him that did anything wrong it falls on his head, he is held liable. What they are saying is that it is not Cesar himself who is doing/did anything wrong so this situation doesn't back up your dislike of Cesar. You were trying to give us examples of all these supposed issues that Cesar had caused, and you didn't do that because it was not Cesar that chained a dog to a treadmill and left it alone to get injured....that's all we're trying to say....not that he isn't _responsible_ for what happened, but that none of this discredits HIM as a behaviourist, none of this shows that he, himself does anything wrong.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Milan is the owner of the facility, HE sets the guidelines for how dogs are treated in HIS facility PERIOD. It's like a saying a Commanding officer isn't responsible for the conduct of his soldiers. Even if he's not around, he is still responsible.
> 
> I never said he wasn't a professional dog trainer, he trains for money, therefore he's a professional.


Our President and Vice President don't feel responsible for anything that happens invovling them, so why should Cesar be picked on ?


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## opossum (Feb 20, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Milan is the owner of the facility, HE sets the guidelines for how dogs are treated in HIS facility PERIOD. It's like a saying a Commanding officer isn't responsible for the conduct of his soldiers. Even if he's not around, he is still responsible.
> 
> I never said he wasn't a professional dog trainer, he trains for money, therefore he's a professional.


Sometimes an officer can't control every action of every soldier. People make mistakes. If a soldier does something stupid that doesn't mean the officer is not good at what he does. Was the person in question acting under the guidelines that Cesar set? He is responsible for his facility and has probably taken steps to prevent such a thing in the future. We can't always prepare for every possible event though.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

But the Officer is STILL responsible for the on duty actions of his people. I know this, my husband is an officer. If one of his guys screws up while on duty, HE gets relieved of duty too. Just ask the officers that were in charge of Abu Graib, all lost their commissions, the same as the officers that were in charge of the marines that murdered several innocent by standers after a IED attack. I guess I have too high a standard to expect someone like CM, who didn't even come into this country legally to take responsibility for the actions of his employees.


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## Cbaker (Sep 8, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> These are by PROFESSIONAL trainers certified by an association that is recognized AROUND THE WORLD.


 Maybe I misread it in my head, since its easy to do over a forum. But the emphasis on professional to me would imply that he is not professional or part of an association that is recognized around the world.


Cbaker said:


> He just gets to take the fall because the guys didn't follow directions and he owns the place.


Im guessing you missed this part of my wall of text. Clearly I understand and wrote here what you responded with cshellenberger. Stuff happens, people are stupid and they get fired.In the previous posts it was being implied that Cesar Milan himself was the one commiting these actions that brought forth a lawsuit. I simply wanted to provide slight more factual, assuming that what I viewed on newspapers and in articles I read were factual about the situation. 

Cesar did take responsibility for it, as he will be paying out the lawsuit. But to say it was his fault, is a inncorect statement. And all the time officers are not to blame, thats why the military has critiques to sort out the events.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Our President and Vice President don't feel responsible for anything that happens invovling them, so why should Cesar be picked on ?


I wonder if the former president and VP feel responsible for the COLE attacks and allowing a dictator to murder millions of people. At least Bush had 00's to take care of a problem that had festered for 10 years. I support the war, and all the guys there. We did the right thing and are still trying to do it despite the interferance of the Syrian and Iranian governments.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> But the Officer is STILL responsible for the on duty actions of his people. I know this, my husband is an officer. If one of his guys screws up while on duty, HE gets relieved of duty too. Just ask the officers that were in charge of Abu Graib, all lost their commissions, the same as the officers that were in charge of the marines that murdered several innocent by standers after a IED attack. I guess I have too high a standard to expect someone like CM, who didn't even come into this country legally to take responsibility for the actions of his employees.


Um I am pretty sure that no one has said CM isn't taking responsibility. In fact someone said that CM actually isn't allowing anyone from the outside into his facility anymore...which means he learned from this awful mistake and is taking precautions so this does not happen. 

As for the remark about him coming into the country illegally (which by the way was 20 YEARS AGO so I don't think that has ANYTHING to do with this issue at all) it was kind of un-called for IMO. I don't agree with the others that he shouldn't take responsibilty, because it IS HIS facility and even if HE didn't do this or endorse this it happened at the faciility HE owns and runs, but I also disagree with you in that he obviously is taking responsibilty by changing his rules so that this doesn't happen again.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

*A little behavioral science 101*

Say-No-To-Alpha-Roll wrote on June 04, 2006 3:22 PM:"HISTORY & MISCONCEPTIONS OF DOMINANCE THEORY [ABOUT THE ALPHA ROLL] Note: The information in the following article came from an interview with Dr. Ian Dunbar, who spent nine years studying the social behavior of dogs during the study mentioned below. In an earlier version of this article, Dr. L. David Mech was credited with the 30-year study. This was a mistake. The researcher who conducted the study was Dr. Frank Beach. An effort has been made to correct this error. However, if you know of a place where the original article was published, please notify the editor and request a correction. The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies: These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life. The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos. For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary. A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs? . Finally, after the studies, the researchers made cavalier extrapolations from wolf-dog, dog-dog, and dog-human based on their "findings." Unfortunately, this nonsense still abounds. So what's the truth? The truth is dogs aren't wolves. Honestly, when you take into account the number of generations past, saying "I want to learn how to interact with my dog so I'll learn from the wolves" makes about as much sense as saying, "I want to improve my parenting -- let's see how the chimps do it!" Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings: Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy. Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable. When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments." Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are. The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing. There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic. A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator. The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because... Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals. Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it. "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less. So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship? Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble. To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition. Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination. Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy. Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs... food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own. In a recent article in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) newsletter, Dr. Ray Coppinger -- a biology professor at Hampshire College, co-founder of the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, author of several books including Dogs : A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution; and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community -- says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling)... "I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy." That pretty much sums it up, don't you think?


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## opossum (Feb 20, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> But the Officer is STILL responsible for the on duty actions of his people. I know this, my husband is an officer. If one of his guys screws up while on duty, HE gets relieved of duty too. Just ask the officers that were in charge of Abu Graib, all lost their commissions, the same as the officers that were in charge of the marines that murdered several innocent by standers after a IED attack. I guess I have too high a standard to expect someone like CM, who didn't even come into this country legally to take responsibility for the actions of his employees.


He is ultimately responsible, but it doesn't mean that he would do the same thing himself. And officers are not 100% accountable for every action of those under them. Of course the military is a bit more strict than the general public in the US. My point was that case does not demonstrate that Cesar is incompetent.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> Our President and Vice President don't feel responsible for anything that happens invovling them, so why should Cesar be picked on ?


I don't remember 'we the people' voting for Cesar as President of dogdom.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

CrzyBritNAmerica said:


> Um I am pretty sure that no one has said CM isn't taking responsibility. In fact someone said that CM actually isn't allowing anyone from the outside into his facility anymore...which means he learned from this awful mistake and is taking precautions so this does not happen.
> 
> As for the remark about him coming into the country illegally (which by the way was 20 YEARS AGO so I don't think that has ANYTHING to do with this issue at all) it was kind of un-called for IMO. I don't agree with the others that he shouldn't take responsibilty, because it IS HIS facility and even if HE didn't do this or endorse this it happened at the faciility HE owns and runs, but I also disagree with you in that he obviously is taking responsibilty by changing his rules so that this doesn't happen again.


So were the remarks about our president. I guess it all come down to his credibility, it all adds up to me. He took a short cut to come into the country, he's 'self taught' which means what? To me it's like someone who reads Freud and thinks they're a physcologist. I prefer some course work, a study of animal behavior and an understudy for an experienced trainer.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I don't remember 'we the people' voting for Cesar as President of dogdom.


Curbside my friend, as usual you make me laugh, I was trying to stay away from that one......


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Yeah I the remarks about the president were uncalled for too, but I think someone crossing the border illegally 20 years ago has nothing to do with this conversation. 

There's nothing wrong with wanting "some course work, a study of animal behavior and an understudy for an experienced trainer" that is totally down to personal opinion for you and your dogs, but that doesn't mean that Cesar hasn't done some pretty great things for dogs. I don't really care that you don't like Cesar and his techniques, but you said he has "caused as many issues" as the good he's done and I still do not see why you would say that?


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

I like this article: http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

For those interested, it gives insight on why some do not agree with some of the things that are done on Cesars show.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

There's agreeing and disagreeing, and then there's fanatically worshiping and viciously hating.

A lot of the controversy around him boils down to whether or not you follow the alpha theory, or operant conditioning; or if you're a fan of Pat McConnell, Ian Dunbar you most likely won't agree with CM; basically, difference of opinions. I'm not 100% sure why it turns out that some people feel that CM is mutually exclusive with any other thing.

At the end of the day, making up your mind in absolute temrs about the guy (this one or any othertrainer or person for that matter) creates one thing, closed mindedness, which ultimately inhibites the absorsion of any further knowledge that may come from outside the opinion you're set in.

While I agree that this guy is not the best thing to happen to dogs since the beginning of time, I find it hard to believe that he has nothing to contribute.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

> I don't remember 'we the people' voting for Cesar as President of dogdom.


How about President of the good ol' US of A? I'd as soon vote for him as who we have running now and that's a fact.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Elijah said:


> How about President of the good ol' US of A? I'd as soon vote for him as who we have running now and that's a fact.


Too early to tell?...I dunno. But I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be a dog amongst Cheney's hunting pals.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Too early to tell?...I dunno. But I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be a dog amongst Cheney's hunting pals.


ROFL! Yeah so I am now SURE people in this office think I am crazy now that I have bursted out laughing...thanks Curbside, I NEEDED that!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

opokki said:


> I like this article: http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
> 
> For those interested, it gives insight on why some do not agree with some of the things that are done on Cesars show.



Excellent article. I also like the links at the bottom. More people should study them.



Elijah said:


> How about President of the good ol' US of A? I'd as soon vote for him as who we have running now and that's a fact.


Not eligable, you have to be BORN a citizen of the United States, he's not even ..... well, never mind.

More of the science behind my view.

http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_news_releases_dog_whisperer

http://www.animalbehavior.net/PUBLIC/CesarMillan_Luescher.htm

This is from the second article



> would just like to point out three particularly disturbing episodes. In one, a Great Dane is dragged onto a slippery floor by a choke chain. Again, punishment and flooding is used. The dog was under extreme stress. The photographer did an excellent job at documenting the excessive drooling. In another sequence a Viszla is corrected for showing fear by inflicting pain. Would you hit your frightened child if it was afraid, say, of heights? The most disturbing sequence was the Entlebucher Mountain Dog with compulsive disorder that was "treated" with a prong collar. The dog's behavior could be compared to stereotypic rocking in a child. The method Millan used to approach this problem would be like hitting this severely disturbed child each time it rocks. I bet you could suppress rocking behavior, but certainly no-one would suggest that that child was cured.
> 
> The last episode (compulsive disorder) is particularly unsettling because compulsive disorder is related to an imbalance in neurotransmitter levels or receptors, and is therefore unequivocally a medical condition. Would it be appropriate to treat obsessive compulsive disorder in people with punishment? Or have a layperson go around treating such patients?
> 
> Most of the theoretical explanations that Millan gives regarding causes of the behavior problems are wrong. Not one of these dogs had any issue with dominance. Not one of these dogs wanted to control their owners. What he was right about was that calmness and consistency are extremely important, but they don't make the presented methods appropriate or justifiable.


These are the opinions of a VETERINARIAN who is also a behaviorist and teaches at Purdue, one of the top schools in the country.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

> Too early to tell?...I dunno. But I know one thing, I wouldn't want to be a dog amongst Cheney's hunting pals.


Yep-You've got that right! I wonder if Clinton still has collar burns from where Hillary walked him around the White House...or maybe that was Monica.


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## TheBDD (Mar 5, 2007)

RonE said:


> If _Super Nanny_ had been on the air when my children were younger, I would probably have watched it for much the same reason.


I watch Super Nanny too... she's great!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I can visualize another YouTube parody: A family fosters a wild child raised by wolves and calls in Super Nanny and The Dog Whisperer to rehabilitate the kid.

It's probably already on the fall lineup.


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## opossum (Feb 20, 2007)

RonE said:


> I can visualize another YouTube parody: A family fosters a wild child raised by wolves and calls in Super Nanny and The Dog Whisperer to rehabilitate the kid.
> 
> It's probably already on the fall lineup.


There was a South Park episode where Cesar was brought in to help with Cartman (the mean kid). It was hilarious (if you like South Park).


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Say-No-To-Alpha-Roll wrote on June 04, 2006 3:22 PM:"HISTORY & MISCONCEPTIONS OF DOMINANCE THEORY [ABOUT THE ALPHA ROLL] Note: The information in the following article came from an interview with Dr. Ian Dunbar, who spent nine years studying the social behavior of dogs during the study mentioned below. In an earlier version of this article, Dr. L. David Mech was credited with the 30-year study. This was a mistake. The researcher who conducted the study was Dr. Frank Beach. An effort has been made to correct this error. However, if you know of a place where the original article was published, please notify the editor and request a correction. The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies: These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative -- drawing conclusions about "wolf behavior" based on about 1% of wolf life. The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the "dominance model" comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos. For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an "appeasement ritual" instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf "pins" it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary. A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs? . Finally, after the studies, the researchers made cavalier extrapolations from wolf-dog, dog-dog, and dog-human based on their "findings." Unfortunately, this nonsense still abounds. So what's the truth? The truth is dogs aren't wolves. Honestly, when you take into account the number of generations past, saying "I want to learn how to interact with my dog so I'll learn from the wolves" makes about as much sense as saying, "I want to improve my parenting -- let's see how the chimps do it!" Dr. Frank Beach performed a 30-year study on dogs at Yale and UC Berkeley. Nineteen years of the study was devoted to social behavior of a dog pack. (Not a wolf pack. A DOG pack.) Some of his findings: Male dogs have a rigid hierarchy. Female dogs have a hierarchy, but it's more variable. When you mix the sexes, the rules get mixed up. Males try to follow their constitution, but the females have "amendments." Young puppies have what's called "puppy license." Basically, that license to do most anything. Bitches are more tolerant of puppy license than males are. The puppy license is revoked at approximately four months of age. At that time, the older middle-ranked dogs literally give the puppy hell -- psychologically torturing it until it offers all of the appropriate appeasement behaviors and takes its place at the bottom of the social hierarchy. The top-ranked dogs ignore the whole thing. There is NO physical domination. Everything is accomplished through psychological harassment. It's all ritualistic. A small minority of "alpha" dogs assumed their position by bullying and force. Those that did were quickly deposed. No one likes a dictator. The vast majority of alpha dogs rule benevolently. They are confident in their position. They do not stoop to squabbling to prove their point. To do so would lower their status because... Middle-ranked animals squabble. They are insecure in their positions and want to advance over other middle-ranked animals. Low-ranked animals do not squabble. They know they would lose. They know their position, and they accept it. "Alpha" does not mean physically dominant. It means "in control of resources." Many, many alpha dogs are too small or too physically frail to physically dominate. But they have earned the right to control the valued resources. An individual dog determines which resources he considers important. Thus an alpha dog may give up a prime sleeping place because he simply couldn't care less. So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship? Using physical force of any kind reduces your "rank." Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble. To be "alpha," control the resources. I don't mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great -- ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, *you* are alpha by definition. Train your dog. This is the dog-human equivalent of the "revoking of puppy license" phase in dog development. Children, women, elderly people, handicapped people -- all are capable of training a dog. Very few people are capable of physical domination. Reward deferential behavior, rather than pushy behavior. I have two dogs. If one pushes in front of the other, the other gets the attention, the food, whatever the first dog wanted. The first dog to sit gets treated. Pulling on lead goes nowhere. Doors don't open until dogs are seated and I say they may go out. Reward pushy, and you get pushy. Your job is to be a leader, not a boss, not a dictator. Leadership is a huge responsibility. Your job is to provide for all of your dog's needs... food, water, vet care, social needs, security, etc. If you fail to provide what your dog needs, your dog will try to satisfy those needs on his own. In a recent article in the Association of Pet Dog Trainers (APDT) newsletter, Dr. Ray Coppinger -- a biology professor at Hampshire College, co-founder of the Livestock Guarding Dog Project, author of several books including Dogs : A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior, and Evolution; and an extremely well-respected member of the dog training community -- says in regards to the dominance model (and alpha rolling)... "I cannot think of many learning situations where I want my learning dogs responding with fear and lack of motion. I never want my animals to be thinking social hierarchy. Once they do, they will be spending their time trying to figure out how to move up in the hierarchy." That pretty much sums it up, don't you think?


Shame it isn't in paragraphs, I might have read it.....



cshellenberger said:


> I wonder if the former president and VP feel responsible for the COLE attacks and allowing a dictator to murder millions of people. At least Bush had 00's to take care of a problem that had festered for 10 years. I support the war, and all the guys there. We did the right thing and are still trying to do it despite the interferance of the Syrian and Iranian governments.




Starting a war based on stuff the administration knew was wrong is pretty stupid in my opinion. But we are talking about the guy that thought Fema did a great job after Katrina, said he was going to punish anyone that outed the CIA agent so Cheney could discredit a war critic and his wife, told us Rumsfeld was a genius and was doing a great job with the war, said "Mission Accomplished" a couple of weeks after this 4+ year war without end started, doesn't want anyone to see the caskets coming back from Iraq ( first time a US President has ever done that!) , hasn't attended *any funerals *of our fallen Heros since the war started, appointed the moron in charge of the VA that has the returning injured soldiers living in rat infested quarters, wants to open the borders from Canada to South America so that Mexican drivers and their pile of junk trucks can drive all over the United States Roads......... He has 00"s alright.. The first 2 digits on his IQ.......


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Hmmm, my hubby served in the White House Military Office under BOTH admins. Bush has attended SEVERAL military funerals, has been in and out of Walter Reed, Balboa and several other hospitals to visist our wounded vets.

Not firing Rummy was a HUGE mistake, actually, putting him in the Pentagon instead of someone like Powell or Schwartzcopf was the mistake. I agree that a better plan sould have been in place to rebuild.

Brown was fired after the FEMA fiasco, which by the way was blown out of proportion since the problem was with the Army Corp of Engineers neglecting the levy system they had been told FOR THIRTY YEARS was inadequit. Also the scale of Katrina even if ther levies had held was something that had NEVER been seen. The Gulf Coast from Gulf Shores AL to Pass Christian got between a 10ft (AL) to 35 ft. wave that came through and destroyed EVERYTHING for a mile inland. My mother got 4 1/2 feet of water in her house which is 15 feet above sea level in Pascagoula MS where nearly 2/3 of the homes had severe water damage. Hers is one of three homes allowed to be left standing on a square mile, all the others were condemned and had to be torn down. Heck, you couldn't even drive from one town to another because the bridges were damaged and roads ripped apart. The fact is that NOBODY figured on this type of damage from a Catagory 3 hurricane. The tidal surge that accompanied this was worse that the one that accompanied Camille, which was a Catagory 5 and it took 20 years to FULLY recover from.

This is all off topic though. I believe I posted good example of things Milan has done and why they are the wrong things to do. Putting a shock collar on a dog with OCD I believe is the worst thing I've ever heard of.

As far as the other article, it's a cut and paste response to a story. Unfortunate formatting.

Oh, the VA hospitals have been in bad shape for many years too. My Grandfather had the grave misfortune to be admitted to one, he didn't come out. That was 20 years ago and back then you couldn't sue the VA. Again, another problem inherited by the administration. Please, do your research before swallowing stories from the press, they almost NEVER tell the whole story any more.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Hmmm, my hubby served in the White House Military Office under BOTH admins. Bush has attended SEVERAL military funerals, has been in and out of Walter Reed, Balboa and several other hospitals to visist our wounded vets.
> 
> Not firing Rummy was a HUGE mistake, actually, putting him in the Pentagon instead of someone like Powell or Schwartzcopf was the mistake. I agree that a better plan sould have been in place to rebuild.
> 
> ...


Brown was fired after they found out that he was just a political hack that Bush appointed and didn't know squat about running anything like FEMA, but had spent years judging horse contests. He was more worried about what he was going to eat for dinner and how his hair would look on TV, while people were drowning in New Orleans. Then the genius Bush, says that " Brown is doing a great job" !!!

The 3 star General that is running the VA lives *across the street from where the troops were forced to live with mold so bad on the walls that the workers removing it wore gas masks. * In addition there were rodents running around. The General who should be fired and probably will, stated that " It was the troops fault", because they brought snacks into their rooms. The Adminstration has had *6 years to fix these problems*. They can send *12 billion dollars worth of cash over to Iraq,* which disappeared by the way ( like in nobody knows what happened to the money) but they can't afford to fix the VA facilities. They just opened a World Class facility The Intrepid in San Antonio to take care of the wounded from Iraq and Bush and Cheney didn't even bother to attend the opening.
http://www.syska.com/Government/projects/intrepid.html


And you are right it is off topic.. Back to Cesar:

What kind of "shock collar" was it? If it is the typical training collar, it doesn't shock the animal at all. I have worn one on my wrist in a demo, and all you feel is a slight tingle. I am now reading a book called Good Owners Great Dogs and much of what he states in his book goes right along with what Cesar is saying. I haven't read one major difference as of yet......


http://www.amazon.com/Good-Owners-Great-Brian-Kilcommons/dp/0446675385


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> What kind of "shock collar" was it? If it is the typical training collar, it doesn't shock the animal at all. I have worn one on my wrist in a demo, and all you feel is a slight tingle. I am now reading a book called Good Owners Great Dogs and much of what he states in his book goes right along with what Cesar is saying. I haven't read one major difference as of yet......


I recommend reading from this book list: http://www.sfspca.org/academy/recommended_reading.pdf.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Captbob said:


> And you are right it is off topic.. Back to Cesar:
> 
> What kind of "shock collar" was it? If it is the typical training collar, it doesn't shock the animal at all. I have worn one on my wrist in a demo, and all you feel is a slight tingle. I am now reading a book called Good Owners Great Dogs and much of what he states in his book goes right along with what Cesar is saying. I haven't read one major difference as of yet......
> 
> ...



It doesn't matter what kind, it's punishment for A MEDICAL CONDITION!!!!!! It's like spanking a child for OCD washing or rocking.



> The 3 star General that is running the VA lives across the street from where the troops were forced to live with mold so bad on the walls that the workers removing it wore gas masks. In addition there were rodents running around. The General who should be fired and probably will, stated that " It was the troops fault", because they brought snacks into their rooms. The Adminstration has had 6 years to fix these problems. They can send 12 billion dollars worth of cash over to Iraq, which disappeared by the way ( like in nobody knows what happened to the money) but they can't afford to fix the VA facilities. They just opened a World Class facility The Intrepid in San Antonio to take care of the wounded from Iraq and Bush and Cheney didn't even bother to attend the opening.


How do you fix 30 years of neglect in 6? That bulding has been like that for years, I damn sure didn't see the Clinton admin fix it! 

As far as the General, yes, he should lose his comission. He is in charge of reprting these things and getting hte money put aside for fixing them.

Cheney has his own health problems, I believe he just had a blood clot break loose. I guess he still should have flown down there and allowed the clot to kill him!


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## MyBeagleJackson (Mar 9, 2007)

I love watching the show! I do believe that most of what he says is true and makes a whole lot of sense. I also believe that some people can just HANDLE dogs better than others, and he is one of those people.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> It doesn't matter what kind, it's punishment for A MEDICAL CONDITION!!!!!! It's like spanking a child for OCD washing or rocking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First of all, they could have built a brand new building in alot less than 6 years. It is OK for Cheney to fly all over the world which he just did, but he can't fly to San Antonio Texas to appear at a opening of a World Class rehab center that was* built from funds not provided by the Federal Government, but raised by charities for the wounded Vets*. Since Cheney dodged the draft about 5 times with different deferments and Bush was no where to be found for much of his time in the National Guard, (at least nobody can remember seeing much of him) , I guess they don't have alot of empathy with people that actually serve this country in the service.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Captbob said:


> First of all, they could have built a brand new building in alot less than 6 years. It is OK for Cheney to fly all over the world which he just did, but he can't fly to San Antonio Texas to appear at a opening of a World Class rehab center that was* built from funds not provided by the Federal Government, but raised by charities for the wounded Vets*. Since Cheney dodged the draft about 5 times with different deferments and Bush was no where to be found for much of his time in the National Guard, (at least nobody can remember seeing much of him) , I guess they don't have alot of empathy with people that actually serve this country in the service.


You may want to hijack this thread instead: Lets Talk Politics... - Dog Forums - all breed dog forum.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

UGH, I believe the whole thing about Bush not being there was disproven. I did some research, and Clinton did the same thing as Cheney and got Draft Deferments. I personally don't believe in the draft, I think we have a MUCH stronger military by voluntary sign up. Of course the media ignored the fact that the Brig General that was misquoted on the Bush issue. 

http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york200402180840.asp
http://www.1stcavmedic.com/bill-clinton-draft.htm
http://debatespace.blogspot.com/2005/05/draft-avoidance-clinton-bush-and.html


In addition, YOU are the one that meade the comment about our president. I made a comment that I support the war and was willing to leave it at that.

BTW, I did comment on that thread.

I notice you STILL haven't acknowled the FACTS about dog Behavior and the clear examples of Ceasars misuse of dominance based training.



Curbside Prophet said:


> You may want to hijack this thread instead: Lets Talk Politics... - Dog Forums - all breed dog forum.



Sorry Curbside, I thought it was El Capitan I was commenting to!


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

captbob said:


> It seems to me that the people that knock Cesar, either don't watch the show, or are angry because he is very good at what he does, and they are jealous.


This message was typed to Captbob from Opokki (sorry, I made a big boo-boo and edited Captbob's message instead of responding).

Did you read the article I posted? 
http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

It may give you a better understanding of why some people don't agree with everything Cesar does.

You accuse people of being "jealous" and I think you do this out of frustration because you can't understand why some don't agree with him. Read the article and let me know what you think.

Cesar IS good at what he does. Many of the methods Cesar uses DO work, at least for the moment. Cesar is clam, consistent and has impeccable timing, which atributes to much of his success. Because of these qualities, Cesar can use aversives without causing other problems as far as I can tell. I agree with several things that he says (dogs need clear consistent rules, exercise, and should not be treated like people in fur coats) but don't agree with everything he does. 

IMO, some of the methods used are not appropriate for the average owner. The average owner is not good at reading dogs, is inconsistent, has poor timing and is far from being calm when problems arise. Aversives have too many pitfalls for those lacking the skills neccessary to apply them correctly, and therefore, can escalate the problem and/or lead to other problems. And regardless of how things appear on the show, there are rarely if ever, any quick permanent fixes when it comes to behavior problems.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> He took dogs that were just totally out of control, and calmed them down and had them walking with their up till then unsuccessfull owners, within a very short time.


I'm not for or against Cesar. I enjoy watching the show. But I don't find things like that to be all that miraculous. For starters, "a very short time" on tv is much, much longer in real life. 

Plus, I know with my own dog, when I first take him out for a walk, he's all hyper and pulling and acting like a nut. But on the way back from a walk, he's the picture of obedience, perfect loose leash walking. That doesn't mean he's "cured," he's just wore out.  He's also bad with strangers. But give him about five to fifteen minutes to get his barking out of his system, and he's fine with anyone. He'll be back to his normal cranky self as soon as someone else comes along, but it would be easy to make it seem like his problem is solved on a tv show.

Now, Beavis isn't a "Red Zone" dog by any means. I always joke that "he's not a bad dog, he's just a typical Pekingese." I do think Cesar is doing a good thing for dogs, but he's not the messiah, and no problem is solved in 15 minutes.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Those unsuccessful owners usually have put little or no time into teaching their dogs or they have been inconsistant about the training they have done and 'rewarded' the bad behavior randomly which can have a powerful effect on ingraining the behavior (it's a slot machine effect or randomization). The one thing Ceasar does, is be CONSISTANT. They dog always has to follow the same rules and knows where he stands with Milan. 

It is his attitude with fearful, shy and some times even sick dogs that concerns me. If you read the science behind what I'm saying you will understand. You DON'T punish Phobias, it's counterproductive. You Don't punish OCD, it's ineffective and just adds fear to the equation and makes things worse. This is true for dogs and humans.


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## RobDar (Dec 28, 2006)

there is no one way to train a dog...regardless of what some people would have you believe...not every method works in every situation, for every dog, or in every household.

I would say that if you have tried his methods and they worked...then he is for real.
If you tried them and they did not work...the maybe he is not for real.
I have seen his methods go both ways. *I have seen most methods go both ways.*..so why is that???? Why does it work for some and not for others???
It is because dog training is as much about the people as it is the dog.

Anyone who tells you they have a fool proof method of dog training that always works...is disillusioned, inexperienced, or self absorbed.

so is he for real??? For some there is no other choice...for others he does not make any sense at all...and that is just the way it should be. If you feel some of what he says is way out there...then it is likely you will not use those methods with enough confidence and skill for them to be successful with your dog...cause your dog knows!!!! Training your dog is as much about *HOW* you impart that training as it is the METHOD you are using. If you do not believe in the method or are not comfortable with the method...you will not find it as successful as some other method of training you ARE comfortable with...plain and simple.


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## eley (May 21, 2006)

see what I meant a few pages ago? and this is pretty much the way all Cesar Milan discussions in other forums end up at some point or another. Someone feels an unstopable urge to discredit him, a need to warn people about him like he's the incarnation of evil. At the same time there's some other person defending his every statement like it is the gospel itself, because if someone was to doubt Cesar, the world would start spinning backwards and the time space continuum would be at risk. 

bottom line, if you like the guy, watch him, use his teachings, but above all try to learn from others aside from him. If you don't like him, make a statement and move on.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

*I am so sorry Captbob!*    

The below message is mine. When I went to respond, I think I accidently edited your message and typed mine over it...either that or there was some kind of gliche that cause this to happen.



Captbob said:


> Did you read the article I posted?
> http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm
> 
> It may give you a better understanding of why some people don't agree with everything Cesar does.
> ...


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

That happens. I've done it myself, though obviously not here.

You go to quote somebody and accidently hit the edit button instead of the quote button and, the next thing you know, you're a rogue moderator.


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

opokki said:


> *I am so sorry Captbob!*
> 
> The below message is mine. When I went to respond, I think I accidently edited your message and typed mine over it...either that or there was some kind of gliche that cause this to happen.


I have done the same thing. What I do if that happens is hit edit again and make sure there is a [/Quote] at the end of what you want quoted 

Thanks for the link, I will read alot of that......


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## Foster Dog (Sep 20, 2010)

Cesar bashing is understandable but regrettable, given his major success and popularity. But let's address particulars here.
What evidence do you have that the dog is over stressed and broken by Cesar's techniques? That they by in large display a noticeable shift from various states of distress to being a calm submissive relaxed happy dog with lasting effects? Do you think the dogs are faking it to make Cesar look good? lol
Sure, it is tv, and there is pressure to show results in a short time. But this also happens to fit with Cesar's approach anyway. If the dogs were forced too quickly, in a manner beyond their threshold, you would not see both the during-show and after-results that are the majority of the cases. They would withdraw, retreat, lash out more, or any number of noticeable reactions other than what I am seeing. And I am careful to follow-up on owners who have been in the show.
And not being a trainer is a separate issue - it does not negate the efficacy or rationale behiond his techniques/approach - by simply saying he is not a trainer. And how is that sad exactly? He doesn't claim to be better than dog trainers, or criticize dog trainers. Perhaps you can go into particulars in your post - as opposed to knocking him in a totally general and unconstructive way.

I'm reading a fair bit about Cesar and aversives. I'm not sure that the average reader real;y understands what is meant by the term. I would be intersted to know how various seasoned contributors to this forum would define aversives - and then how that applies specifically to Cesar's techniques and philosophy.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

This thread is 3 years old. =/


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## Foster Dog (Sep 20, 2010)

And your point is? The debate is ongoing, and I see no reason to start a new thread when much of the issues can be found here. Anyone can type in Cesar Millan and will be brought here.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)




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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Foster Dog said:


> And your point is? The debate is ongoing, and I see no reason to start a new thread when much of the issues can be found here. Anyone can type in Cesar Millan and will be brought here.


The debate is onging.. even though the debate died three years ago. A new thread would have to be started to relaunch said debate. 

In any event, I think people are sick of talking about the guy. I've seen enough to know to give him a call if I need him to hold one of my dogs down until they're whale eyed and shut down. Until then, we're good.

And darn it, Curbside. I am way too tired to laugh.


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

Foster Dog said:


> And your point is? *The debate is ongoing*,


....ummmm...to WHO?!?! I post here regularly, &, I can assure you that Cesar is NOT a particular "topic" of warm, fuzzy discussion...more llike a taboo...not because of Cesar himself really mind you, just basically because of how OTHER ninny-heads have "butchered" his practices, & have misinterpereted his teachings...that alone has ruined MANY dogs to their unsuspecting, idiotic human owners. Trying to "resurrect" a dead, 3+ yr. old thread...POINTLESS!


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## Bones (Sep 11, 2009)

Hey, if it worked on Cartman he must know his stuff...


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## Foster Dog (Sep 20, 2010)

Funny photos and South Park aside, Cesar bashing is easy but not fair. If people misunderstand and misuse his techniques, how can you blame him for that? Anyway, I care about dogs and I care about what works - and a lot of his stuff works. Period.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Okay, I'm game. I've been cranky lately and need a good outlet. This works for me. But then I'll likely grow bored with the neverending arguing about us being jealous, envious and that we don't understand that CM is working with ""Redzone"" cases and that we wouldn't be able to fix that throwing cookies. 



Foster Dog said:


> What evidence do you have that the dog is over stressed and broken by Cesar's techniques? That they by in large display a noticeable shift from various states of distress to being a calm submissive relaxed happy dog with lasting effects? Do you think the dogs are faking it to make Cesar look good? lol


It's by AND large. 
The problem in the perception here is that the dog is "calm submissive"..many of these dogs express stress characteristics that occur during mental overload and shutdown. Excessive panting, eye contact avoidance, whale eyes, pinned ears, lying prostrate on their side (not pinned, but just laying there). And don't try the 'you've not watched his show" stuff..I OWN the first three seasons and both of his first two books. I did like him (and still don't dislike HIM) but I don't like his methods. He also frequently assesses dog behaviours as "dominant" that are more likely appeasement behaviours. This has changed some in recent seasons. I do believe he is learning/changing....too bad his proponents are not that open minded.



> If the dogs were forced too quickly, in a manner beyond their threshold, you would not see both the during-show and after-results that are the majority of the cases. They would withdraw, retreat, lash out more, or any number of noticeable reactions other than what I am seeing.


Many of the dogs DO retreat and withdraw and some lash out..til they shut down. We do not see all, it is TV and is edited. And it's very possible that we only see the "successes" and never the failures. I'm sure they shoot much more than ever makes it to TV.



> And I am careful to follow-up on owners who have been in the show.


You follow up on the owners? Interesting. Do you follow up on the DOGS? How do you know if the methods, continued by the owners presumably, did not simply supress the behaviour and create a stressed out dog that is constantly trying to avoid being tssshtd? And how is it that you follow up on the owners? Are you involved with the show? Rumour has it it's being cancelled. We shall see.



> I'm reading a fair bit about Cesar and aversives. I'm not sure that the average reader really understands what is meant by the term. I would be intersted to know how various seasoned contributors to this forum would define aversives - and then how that applies specifically to Cesar's techniques and philosophy.


So we're average readers AND seasoned contributors?
I define an aversive as anything a particular dog finds aversive. Just like the definition of rewards, it is the organism itself that decides what is aversive enough to discontinue a behaviour. Either way, using aversives in MOST cases is unneeded, unnecessary and not to be recommended to JQ Public watching a tv show that purports to fix serious behaviour problems in a day.

That felt good. Off to throw cookies at my dog now.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Foster Dog said:


> Funny photos and South Park aside, Cesar bashing is easy but not fair. *If people misunderstand and misuse his techniques, how can you blame him for that?* Anyway, I care about dogs and I care about what works - and a lot of his stuff works. Period.


Umm, really? REALLY?! Last night I saw a story about the news about kids who are _choking one another_ because they saw it on Youtube. Most of the American economy is BASED ON the fact that if it's on TV, it must be true.

And, goddamnit Cracker. Have an internet. You win.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

Honestly, if people spent as much time working with dogs as they do arguing methods, there wouldn't be an untrained dog left on the planet.

If it works for you and your dog, do it. If it doesn't, try something else. It's as simple as that.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> Umm, really? REALLY?! Last night I saw a story about the news about kids who are _choking one another_ because they saw it on Youtube. Most of the American economy is BASED ON the fact that if it's on TV, it must be true.
> 
> And, goddamnit Cracker. Have an internet. You win.


LOL, if it's on TV it must be true....

I win?? Cool. What do you mean by "have an internet" though...I'm lost in translation here..lol


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

Foster Dog said:


> Funny photos and South Park aside, Cesar bashing is easy but not fair. If people misunderstand and misuse his techniques, how can you blame him for that? Anyway, I care about dogs and I care about what works - and a lot of his stuff works. Period.


The problem is, that the methods that he does use that are ok (very few and far in between imo), doesn't out weigh all the bad stuff and the fall out from what he does. Now you can blame it on the owners but the responsiblity starts with the program and Milian. As a trainer it does get very old very fast of people calling (some in tears) because they have followed that show and his methods (purchased the dvd's/books). I always ask them, 'How is that working for you, has your dog gotten better? Reply..........'No, actually the problems have gotten worse.' I get nothing less than several calls or emails a week from people that now have worse issues from watching that show. Sadly, Milian and that program keep trainers like myself very busy fixing esculating problems from people 'rolling' dogs and being dominant over their dogs, hoping to create a submissive dog instead of actually training their dogs. So in my mind it doesn't matter that the people may not fully understand what he is doing or why, whether his methods can or could work with an educated person (especially since this methods have been around forever and most experienced trainers either know which ones to apply to which dog or which methods really shouldn't been done at all) ........ the results are still the same, screwed up dogs, owned by people that just may have gone for some good training in the first place instead of watching a t.v program which offers quick fixes with methods that are questionable at best and often dangerous.

And for him or others to claim that he isn't a 'trainer' is ridiculous, the first job of a 'trainer' is to educate and demonstrate to clients how to train their dogs. So if you have clients present and your working with their dog or instructing them, your a trainer. And being a trainer is all about behaviour modification and educating clients on how to deal with countless issues, teaching sit, down, come, stay and loose leash is the easy part.


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

LynnI said:


> The problem is, that the methods that he does use that are ok (very few and far in between imo), doesn't out weigh all the bad stuff and the fall out from what he does. Now you can blame it on the owners but the responsiblity starts with the program and Milian. As a trainer it does get very old very fast of people calling (some in tears) because they have followed that show and his methods (purchased the dvd's/books). I always ask them, 'How is that working for you, has your dog gotten better? Reply..........'No, actually the problems have gotten worse.' I get nothing less than several calls or emails a week from people that now have worse issues from watching that show. Sadly, Milian and that program keep trainers like myself very busy fixing esculating problems from people 'rolling' dogs and being dominant over their dogs, hoping to create a submissive dog instead of actually training their dogs. So in my mind it doesn't matter that the people may not fully understand what he is doing or why, whether his methods can or could work with an educated person (especially since this methods have been around forever and most experienced trainers either know which ones to apply to which dog or which methods really shouldn't been done at all) ........ the results are still the same, screwed up dogs, owned by people that just may have gone for some good training in the first place instead of watching a t.v program which offers quick fixes with methods that are questionable at best and often dangerous.
> 
> And for him or others to claim that his isn't a 'trainer' is ridiculous, the first job of a 'trainer' is to educate and demonstrate to clients how to train their dogs. So if you have clients present and your working with their dog or instructing them, your a trainer.


But the same can be said for virtually any method. R+ methods can mess a dog up just as badly, just as quickly if they are done incorrectly. I can pretty much guarantee you that on another forum somewhere, people are having this exact same conversation about celebrity R+ trainers and making the exact same accusations about them "escalating problems" and "screwing up dogs." Is it true? Only as true as it is in this case.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

TorachiKatashi said:


> But the same can be said for virtually any method. R+ methods can mess a dog up just as badly, just as quickly if they are done incorrectly. I can pretty much guarantee you that on another forum somewhere, people are having this exact same conversation about celebrity R+ trainers and making the exact same accusations about them "escalating problems" and "screwing up dogs." Is it true? Only as true as it is in this case.


Celebrity dog trainers (celebrity professional anything really) are a terrible idea in the first place. Dog training is about your dog and your ability to read your dog. The idea that anyone can see a highly edited television program and apply the same things to the dog on their hearth rug is ridiculous, and any one enabling that absolutely needs to take responsibility for that.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

TorachiKatashi said:


> But the same can be said for virtually any method. R+ methods can mess a dog up just as badly, just as quickly if they are done incorrectly. I can pretty much guarantee you that on another forum somewhere, people are having this exact same conversation about celebrity R+ trainers and making the exact same accusations about them "escalating problems" and "screwing up dogs." Is it true? Only as true as it is in this case.


I wouldn't argue that, I fully agree that any method including Positive Reinforcement methods can easily be screwed up. But in my experience those methods when used incorrectly just make a rude, ill mannered and a so-so trained dog that often relies on lures to get them to comply. Whereas dominanting and alpha rolls etc often create an unstable dog that is defensive and scared, nothing worse than creating a fear aggressive dog. Which is what I see from many people using his methods.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I have mixed feelings on him. Like the show, feel he is an excellent handler of dogs and a lot of what he does is nilf. however, he clearly does not have the greatest education so his explinations sometimes leave you scratching your head. of coarse things like physically picking up the tail and even alpha rolls are not excepted among almost any trainers I know, even ones that use aversives. 

On a diff note Victoria Stillwell was recently in my area and worked with a local trainer for an episode. He stated that she was very nice. definitely an actress for the camera. He works extensively with working dogs and aggression and does use aversives when he feels they will benefit(pinch collars - ecollars). He stated she really didnt seem to have any problems with his techniques but was against the use of such by the general public.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Cesar's publishers have a new book coming out that will included unedited Q&A with the likes of Ian Dunbar, and Bob Bailey - two people I appreciate more than Cesar. If Cesar is anything, he's good in business.


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## Moxie (Sep 9, 2010)

Alpha concepts aside, I think that the show does have some things to offer. Primarily, I like that he points out how people are unknowingly practicing positive reinforcement on behaviors that they don't want. Like putting the dog on your lap when it's being a terror, etc. It's good for people to start thinking about reinforcement as a broader concept than just sit -> treat. I also appreciate the work he does towards improving public understanding and acceptance of bully breeds; regardless of what individual feelings about him are, it remains that he's an extremely popular figure and his endorsement in this area has a very positive impact. Otherwise, I don't really have strong feelings on the matter. I think everybody should do what works for them and their dog in their specific situation.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TorachiKatashi said:


> But the same can be said for virtually any method. R+ methods can mess a dog up just as badly, just as quickly if they are done incorrectly. I can pretty much guarantee you that on another forum somewhere, people are having this exact same conversation about celebrity R+ trainers and making the exact same accusations about them "escalating problems" and "screwing up dogs." Is it true? Only as true as it is in this case.



I don't know.

I doubt I could turn a dog into the fearful mess Wally was by using R+ techniques.

While I might could spoil him, and create a dog that will comply only for treats (bribe instead of reward), I doubt I'd create a lot of psychological problems that would "screw him up" nearly as badly.

I guess it depends on what "screwed up" is to the person. For me, being spoiled isn't ruining. Being scared of any person that moves is. I don't think the second would happen from R+ techniques, even if I do them wrong constantly.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I can pretty much guarantee you that on another forum somewhere, people are having this exact same conversation about celebrity R+ trainers and making the exact same accusations about them "escalating problems" and "screwing up dogs.">>>>

they are, need a link LOL


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## TorachiKatashi (Sep 29, 2010)

LynnI said:


> I wouldn't argue that, I fully agree that any method including Positive Reinforcement methods can easily be screwed up. But in my experience those methods when used incorrectly just make a rude, ill mannered and a so-so trained dog that often relies on lures to get them to comply. Whereas dominanting and alpha rolls etc often create an unstable dog that is defensive and scared, nothing worse than creating a fear aggressive dog. Which is what I see from many people using his methods.


Except for the dogs who become highly food aggressive, including biting children to take food from them, or the ones who become possessive of pretty much everything, toys, furniture, their owners... That's pretty "screwed up" and dangerous in my eyes, and I've seen it. I'm sorry, but anyone who tried to tell me that an ill-trained dog of R+ methods isn't just as messed up and dangerous needs to open their eyes.



RaeganW said:


> Celebrity dog trainers (celebrity professional anything really) are a terrible idea in the first place. Dog training is about your dog and your ability to read your dog. The idea that anyone can see a highly edited television program and apply the same things to the dog on their hearth rug is ridiculous, and any one enabling that absolutely needs to take responsibility for that.


What happened to the days when people had to take responsibility for their OWN actions? The more people we have thinking that way, the sooner we come to the day when the only shows we get to watch on TV are Sesame Street and Barney the Dinosaur. I mean, we're already half-way there - anyone remember the old Red Bull commercials from before they actually had to put a "Will not actually give you wings" warning at the end?

Also, it's been a while since I actually saw it, but doesn't The Dog Whisperer have a "Do no try this without consulting a professional" warning before every episode?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Except for the dogs who become highly food aggressive, including biting children to take food from them, or the ones who become possessive of pretty much everything, toys, furniture, their owners...


Uhhh, could you tell me how +R could cause that?



> but doesn't The Dog Whisperer have a "Do no try this without consulting a professional" warning before every episode?


Because those are sooooooooooooooo effective!


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## LuckySarah (May 3, 2010)

Interesting read for those who support CM, kind of a different perspective that makes more sense.

http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

jiml said:


> On a diff note Victoria Stillwell was recently in my area and worked with a local trainer for an episode. He stated that she was very nice. definitely an actress for the camera. He works extensively with working dogs and aggression and does use aversives when he feels they will benefit(pinch collars - ecollars). He stated she really didnt seem to have any problems with his techniques but was against the use of such by the general public.


I think she only says those kinds of tool are bad on TV because most dog owners don't have the first clue on how to use them and she wants to just keep people from hurting their dogs. I've always felt she goes to the positive reinforcement extreme because so many people do what they see done on tv.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

TorachiKatashi said:


> Except for the dogs who become highly food aggressive, including biting children to take food from them, or the ones who become possessive of pretty much everything, toys, furniture, their owners... That's pretty "screwed up" and dangerous in my eyes, and I've seen it. I'm sorry, but anyone who tried to tell me that an ill-trained dog of R+ methods isn't just as messed up and dangerous needs to open their eyes.


Uh.. I'm with Xeph. How does R+ training cause food aggression or resource guarding? And why with these methods did I manage food aggression, resource guarding the bed, resource guarding me, and on a whole 'nother plain severe HA/DA? 



TorachiKatashi said:


> What happened to the days when people had to take responsibility for their OWN actions? The more people we have thinking that way, the sooner we come to the day when the only shows we get to watch on TV are Sesame Street and Barney the Dinosaur. I mean, we're already half-way there - anyone remember the old Red Bull commercials from before they actually had to put a "Will not actually give you wings" warning at the end?


It's funny you request folks take responsibility for their own actions, when with my dogs and our fosters I've had to take responsibility for OTHERS actions.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

here is a good explination of alpha and dominance in wolves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

TorachiKatashi said:


> Except for the dogs who become highly food aggressive, including biting children to take food from them, or the ones who become possessive of pretty much everything, toys, furniture, their owners... That's pretty "screwed up" and dangerous in my eyes, and I've seen it. I'm sorry, but anyone who tried to tell me that an ill-trained dog of R+ methods isn't just as messed up and dangerous needs to open their eyes.


R+ training (which by the way does not HAVE to use food) does not _create_ aggression or resource guarding. If the dog ALREADY has aggression issues or RG issues and it's _badly handled_, regardless of training methods, the issue will worsen...but any good certified behaviour consultant recommends they be dealt with using R+ methods because it's SAFER. Saying that R+ creates food obsession or aggression is ridiculous. You've been watching too much Brad Pattison. 

Using punishment, unless under very specific situations (exact timing, exact amount of force used etc), can have some pretty extreme pitfalls and most people cannot apply it effectively or humanely. R+ can be used safely and not put the handler at risk AND protects the mental health of the dog...at the most the risk is you reinforce the wrong behaviour..which is a timing/handler problem, not a method problem.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Original dominance theory was based on wolves in captivity. The wolves were unrelated and forced together, and as such the hierarchy became much stricter and blatant. This was extrapolated to dogs because of how closely they are related.

More recent studies on wolves in the wild have shown that wolf packs are usually made up of a mated pair of mature wolves, last year's offspring, and this year's pups. Wolves are sexually mature around two years of age, so the bulk of the pack is premature adults, their parents, and their younger siblings. In this context it makes perfect sense that the "alpha" pair are in charge, they're the only sexually mature wolves! When the premature wolves become mature, they leave. This is actually ingenious, because if they didn't leave, the only choices of mates are their full siblings and parents. Too close! Leaving the pack keeps it from becoming severely inbred very quickly.

So. What does mean for dogs? Well, look at the average make up of a household. There's some people, and maybe 1-4 dogs that are probably spuetered and unrelated. So the wolf social structure is practically irrelevant, because there are never any puppies involved. Wolf packs are puppy raising machines, that's why they exist like that. A single wolf can survive on it's own, but honestly wolves and dogs are social animals. They enjoy the company of others, that's why they and humans get along so famously. 

Some dogs are very concerned with social standing. No one is denying the fact that dogs have a social structure. Some care more than others; my dog is happy to be the big shot until someone who actually cares comes along. But dominance isn't really useful for training because it doesn't give the dog any information on how to behave. That's why positive training focuses so much on teaching the dog an alternative behavior in a situation - it wants to give the dog information so he can make good, rewarding choices.

ETA: Wow, my fail. Didn't actually watch the video until after I posted. But it still stands, just a little redundantly.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

TorachiKatashi said:


> Except for the dogs who become highly food aggressive, including biting children to take food from them, or the ones who become possessive of pretty much everything, toys, furniture, their owners... That's pretty "screwed up" and dangerous in my eyes, and I've seen it. I'm sorry, but anyone who tried to tell me that an ill-trained dog of R+ methods isn't just as messed up and dangerous needs to open their eyes.


Scratching my head here and trying to figure out how R+ can do that. Unless you're like... giving them treats every time they growl at you or bite you. Then there's just um, something wrong with your brain.




> What happened to the days when people had to take responsibility for their OWN actions? The more people we have thinking that way, the sooner we come to the day when the only shows we get to watch on TV are Sesame Street and Barney the Dinosaur. I mean, we're already half-way there - anyone remember the old Red Bull commercials from before they actually had to put a "Will not actually give you wings" warning at the end?
> 
> Also, it's been a while since I actually saw it, but doesn't The Dog Whisperer have a "Do no try this without consulting a professional" warning before every episode?


There has never been a time in the history of mankind where people had to take responsibility for their own actions any more than we do now. The people who injure themselves have to be responsible for their actions, but the TV shows have to be responsible for the message they get across. "Taking responsibility" doesn't mean blame the victim and ignore the perpetuator. It means both can take responsibility for their actions in different ways.


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## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

*


RBark said:



Scratching my head here and trying to figure out how R+ can do that. Unless you're like... giving them treats every time they growl at you or bite you. Then there's just um, something wrong with your brain.

Click to expand...

*


RBark said:


> There has never been a time in the history of mankind where people had to take responsibility for their own actions any more than we do now. The people who injure themselves have to be responsible for their actions, but the TV shows have to be responsible for the message they get across. "Taking responsibility" doesn't mean blame the victim and ignore the perpetuator. It means both can take responsibility for their actions in different ways.


Glad you said it because I am speechless and still shaking my head. I don't have anything to add to the excellent information that everyone has already posted on this matter.


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## Foster Dog (Sep 20, 2010)

I don't consider these exchanges arguing, although there are definitely some here posting to get a rise. The threads on this forum often flesh out common perceptions, attitudes, myths, mistakes, contentious issues etc;- and this is both helpful and informative to me. As for your comment "If it works...." I agree as long as it is humane, consistent, without anger or aggression, properly timed, so the dog knows what it's about.

First off, to those who didn't think there was anything anyone wanted to add to an old thread, look again.
Second, my take on all this is the following:
It is one guy and it is tv after all. He deals with heavy cases and has very little time to do it. He's a tv personality, and he does things his way.
There are pros and cons to this.
But he does convey some important messages.
_Exercise, Disciple, Affection._
_Establish clear and consistent pack leader both in action and energy._
_Dogs are not our babies, children, replacement for lost ones, toys, etc; They are animal, dog, breed, friend/name. And it is unfair and even cruel to the dog if they are treated other than what they are._
_People give up too soon on problem behaviour - either giving them away or putting them down._
_And the energy and manner in which you train, is as important as what methods you use._
These are just a few things he has highlighted and brought much needed attention to.....

And as several have pointed out here, all approaches can do damage if not understood and used correctly.
Cesar shows the technique and explains the rationale to the owner (s), and does a follow up - which for a tv show is pretty good.
He doesn't suggest viewers do the same. These are hard cases, and each case is unique. That's why they are calling him in let's not forget,
If viewers agree with his general approach, and want to bring in a trainer, they can look for one with similar views.
But Cesar doesn't advocate self-treating in heavy cases, particularly when the owner is not an experienced owner.
If owners are coming to trainers having adopted Cesar's techniques (or rather what they think they are), and have done harm to their dog as a result, it isn't Cesar's fault. Owners can (and do) pick up any number of approaches from books, word of mouth, internet, trainers, etc; Some of it good, and some of it not so good. If they understand it and implement it well, they will likely be on the right track. If not, they can ruin the most effective methods and tools in a heartbeat.


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

Pai said:


> This thread is 3 years old. =/


Almost 4, actually. It contains a lot a flames. The mods should lock it.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Consider it locked, I could have sworn I locked it a few months back when it was dragged up from the muck months ago.

:deadhorse:


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