# Ugh vets and raw



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Brought Chance in for his 3 year rabies vac today. This is how the convo went.

"So I see here you are feeding a raw...meat....diet?"
"Yes I am, for all 3 of my dogs."
"Ohhh...okay.... well we actually highly highly disapprove of a raw diet."
"....Oh... I see. Is there a specific reason?"
"Well.. the parasites and the bacteria.. it's not not recommended."
"Oh...I see. Well I have done a lot of research and it works for us."
"Let me ask you, is there a specific reason why you are feeding a risky diet to achieve the _same result_?"
"I just want to know what my dogs are eating. My old food changed formulas and I dont like foods with lots of fillers. Why? Were there certain foods you recommend?"
"Well we have seen nothing but amazing results with nutro max, science diet, and Iams."
"Oh.. okay I'll keep up the research."

It just made me laugh. I have NOTHING against people feeding other foods, I just chose to feed raw right now. It just made me laugh that he had such a weak argument and then promoted the very food that lines his pockets!

Oh well. He gave him his rabies shot and we were on our way.


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

I had a vet tell me that the "non filler" food was *hype* and i was wasting my money. He then recommended purina and babbled on about how they make the best food. 

SO yeah, im not surprised.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

He could have at least suggested something other than Iams! =P

Same with our vet, little pepper isn't on raw lol, but she eats wellness, and our vet is always pushing science diet on us saying wellness and other brands are full of bad stuff, but she can't name any of these "bad things" lol.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> I had a vet tell me that the "non filler" food was *hype* and i was wasting my money. He then recommended purina and babbled on about how they make the best food.
> 
> SO yeah, im not surprised.


haha yeah I know. I wasnt surprised either, I just said I would keep researching and he was okay with that.



Pepper said:


> He could have at least suggested something other than Iams! =P
> 
> Same with our vet, little pepper isn't on raw lol, but she eats wellness, and our vet is always pushing science diet on us saying wellness and other brands are full of bad stuff, but she can't name any of these "bad things" lol.


haha yeah, try googling "dog salmonella" THE ONLY RESULTS YOU WILL GET WILL BE CONTAMINATED DOG FOOD! Even if you google salmonella dog raw meat, anything, I found NOTHING!


----------



## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

yeah, dogs have much more resistance to it than us, the only thing they have the same chances as us are getting is like worms from food and isn't cooked thoroughly enough, which is rare as it is.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Pepper said:


> yeah, dogs have much more resistance to it than us, the only thing they have the same chances as us are getting is like worms from food and isn't cooked thoroughly enough, which is rare as it is.


Its just funny because SO many people are against it, I will just have to find a new vet that understands it. I didnt even ask him about the thing on his lip because I didnt want him "blaming" the raw when I think he is just rubbing it with the chicken- its not a big deal but I know he would make it one.


----------



## heidiann (Feb 3, 2008)

I was leery of telling our vet we were feeding raw. Last time we took Topaz in, they commented on how nice his teeth look and how healthy his coat is and they basically just said to be careful with the bones and they're interested in seeing how he does on it. 

I was glad they didn't try to sell me on food. IMO, I don't think vets are very educated as far as nutrition goes and are basically trying to sell you whatever the office sells.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

heidiann said:


> I was leery of telling our vet we were feeding raw. Last time we took Topaz in, they commented on how nice his teeth look and how healthy his coat is and they basically just said to be careful with the bones and they're interested in seeing how he does on it.
> 
> I was glad they didn't try to sell me on food. IMO, I don't think vets are very educated as far as nutrition goes and are basically trying to sell you whatever the office sells.


Yeah, I dont take food advice from someone who is quick to tell me about the product that puts money in his wallet.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

I made a deal with my vet about raw diets.

I said you work with me on this and don't pitch a fit and I will bring everyone I know who feeds raw to you and we will pay to have tests run regularly and you can record all the results. Call it a science experiment. Let's prove one way or the other that raw is good or bad.

After three weeks he shut his mouth and now he recommends raw diets to certain dog owners, especially those with certain problems, added a holistic vet to his staff and is generally less of a money grubbing a&&. 

just a thought you could think on...


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Wow, makes me appreciate my vet more than ever. She actually recommended high end grain free kibble to me when I came in with Kuma, and was totally thrilled when I switched him to raw. One of the benefits of having a holistic vet I guess.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

I didn't tell my vet we'd switched to raw until several months after doing so. After that, I only told her _after_ she'd commented on how great Spunky's weight, allergies and teeth were. She couldn't argue with the results.


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

i don't know about you guys but i've never had a vet ask about diet. *Not once*. I've been to many vets too. 


I volunteered it the one time and thats when i got all the garbage about corn being fine...


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Whenever I go to the vet (which is not often) they always say, "and what are you feeding him?"


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> i don't know about you guys but i've never had a vet ask about diet. *Not once*. I've been to many vets too.


Same for me. My current vet seems to actually avoid the food issue, and will NOT say anything on the subject unless pressed for info. I was in the office when a lady came in specifically asking about food (her young dog is "too skinny"), and he still seemed to want to avoid the subject, but told her that "any brand name food is fine", and to avoid Ol' Roy like the plague, because he's "seen dogs starve to death on it". Which I thought was a little weird. I mean, it's good that he told her to avoid it, but I don't know how a dog could starve if you were feeding him something. Maybe die of malnutrition, but not actually starve. After much conversation, he steered her towards Diamond Performance food (he sells Diamond foods), but she thought it was too expensive  . She took some samples, but I doubt she'd actually buy any.


----------



## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Same here.

When I took one of my past fosters in for his last round of shots before being adopted some how the topic of diets came up. I explained I had Ted on a good, higher quality food with no fillers, corn, gains etc. and the vet looked at me like "HUH?". I also talked about that we tried out raw and how he enjoyed it. He then gave me the "Science Diet is so good" talk.  I simply told him I don't like to feed a food with so much (crap) basically in it and I'll stick to what I know best and what is more healthy for my dogs. 

I got the "uh huh" look as I walked out.

If anything I've learned *most* vets are the last people to get diet advice on when it comes to healthy choices. The more people they can see what they carry is a few more bucks in their pockets.


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

yeah, even when Twitchy had diarhea they didn't ask, they just treated him..

They say the internet is no substitute for vet advice, but man, som'times im not to sure with the winners i've seen.


----------



## Twinney (Nov 4, 2007)

Food for thought (no pun intended) do the makers of Science Diet feed their pets Science Diet? Do the vets actually feed their pets Science Diet?

My vet doesn't bring up diets much. When Shunka went in to get her stitches taken out she mentioned how Shunka would gain weight, but how she noticed Shunka had lost weight. I said I was cutting back on her food, and hoping to switch soon. Then she gave me the talk about how Ol' Roy was packed with corn, fillers and calories, but _Science Diet_ was a fantastic food. How I should switch them to _Science Diet_. They would do so much better on _Science Diet_.  The dogs aren't on _Science Diet_.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Twinney said:


> Food for thought (no pun intended) do the makers of Science Diet feed their pets Science Diet? Do the vets actually feed their pets Science Diet?
> 
> My vet doesn't bring up diets much. When Shunka went in to get her stitches taken out she mentioned how Shunka would gain weight, but how she noticed Shunka had lost weight. I said I was cutting back on her food, and hoping to switch soon. Then she gave me the talk about how Ol' Roy was packed with corn, fillers and calories, but _Science Diet_ was a fantastic food. How I should switch them to _Science Diet_. They would do so much better on _Science Diet_.  The dogs aren't on _Science Diet_.


haha the dogs arent on SCIENCE DIET. I love it!


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> haha the dogs arent on SCIENCE DIET. I love it!


wasn't science diet _actually_ decent food like _ten years ago_? Maybe vets are stuck in a diet dementional time stasis.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> wasn't science diet _actually_ decent food like _ten years ago_? Maybe vets are stuck in a diet dementional time stasis.


Or people are just STILL gullible.

My mom said to me today to stop trying to get my brother and SIL to switch off kibbles and bits. Not everyone thinks the way I do. And I said I know and I dont want them to get annoyed by me, but its THEIR ignorance causing it. My brother keeps saying things like- "you can get salmonella from chicken" but doesnt do the ACTUAL RESEARCH into things.

i was naive and when I got bailey 4 years ago I fed her science diet... my vet recommended it.


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> Or people are just STILL gullible.
> 
> My mom said to me today to stop trying to get my brother and SIL to switch off kibbles and bits. Not everyone thinks the way I do. And I said I know and I dont want them to get annoyed by me, but its THEIR ignorance causing it. My brother keeps saying things like- "you can get salmonella from chicken" but doesnt do the ACTUAL RESEARCH into things.
> 
> *i was naive and when I got bailey 4 years ago I fed her science diet... my vet recommended it*.



I used to feed it to my cat probably 5 years ago.. There was alot of hype about it and how great it was. At work we were told how good it was as well. 

I did notice alot of people returning it tho.....

I remember when Eukanuba was considered good too. I fed it to Scooter when i got him. Now people don't think very highly of it..

So in ten years Raw will be inferior and shunned next to the "snorfzorngorkblah" diet.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

haha snorfzorngorkblah awesome...

so sad it's the truth...just for that I'm creating a dog food called that!!


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Pepper said:


> haha snorfzorngorkblah awesome...
> 
> so sad it's the truth...*just for that I'm creating a dog food called that!*!


glad i could make you rich!! I get 50% btw.


----------



## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

definatly =P what will be the ingredients?

hoozawhat, ooblakah, rawrmix!


----------



## littleboodog (Aug 19, 2008)

Pepper said:


> yeah, dogs have much more resistance to it than us, the only thing they have the same chances as us are getting is like worms from food and isn't cooked thoroughly enough, which is rare as it is.


Dogs can eat meat raw and if they are eating the same meats humans eat, the chance of worms is like a snowball's down below. In fact, the chance of a human getting worms from food that isn't cooked enough is also right up there with that snowball in heck. Humans can be bothered by other things in raw meat, but worms shouldn't keep you up at night worrying. Marie


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> I used to feed it to my cat probably 5 years ago.. There was alot of hype about it and how great it was. At work we were told how good it was as well.
> 
> I did notice alot of people returning it tho.....
> 
> ...


Uhhhhh I patented snorfzorngorkblah puppy adult senior and light like 6 years ago. I am taking you to COURT MISSY!


----------



## littleboodog (Aug 19, 2008)

Criosphynx said:


> wasn't science diet _actually_ decent food like _ten years ago_? Maybe vets are stuck in a diet dementional time stasis.



Demented all right, but not because of Science Diet's timing. Ten years ago it was still corn and poultry by-products. The difference is, so were most dogfoods. Ten years ago Nutro lamb and rice was big deal. Ten years ago Innova's California Natural was earthshaking.

Just goes to show.
Marie


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I don't get the bacteria thing...don't these people ever prepare meat in their kitchens for themselves? People think it's so dirty, but sheesh, all you have to do is wash dishes, which you should do ANYWAY because they EAT off them. So many people think they are going to get salmonella (not the dogs, themsevles) and I think, don't you ever cook chicken yourself? You have to handle it raw at some point. Unless you've mastered the slice & dump and never cut it I guess. 

It took me a while to switch because I was worried about getting all the proportions right. I haven't talked to my vet. I know they sell Science Diet but knowing my actual vet, I think she'd be supportive. I've had annoyances with the staff, but my vet is great. I think I'll check.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

jesirose said:


> I don't get the bacteria thing...don't these people ever prepare meat in their kitchens for themselves? People think it's so dirty, but sheesh, all you have to do is wash dishes, which you should do ANYWAY because they EAT off them. So many people think they are going to get salmonella (not the dogs, themsevles) and I think, don't you ever cook chicken yourself? You have to handle it raw at some point. Unless you've mastered the slice & dump and never cut it I guess.
> 
> It took me a while to switch because I was worried about getting all the proportions right. I haven't talked to my vet. I know they sell Science Diet but knowing my actual vet, I think she'd be supportive. I've had annoyances with the staff, but my vet is great. I think I'll check.


Ok GET THIS. I completely forgot about this!

My SIL came over and she said, do you have any water?

I was like yeah theres tons of bottles in the fridge.

She opened it, and saw ziplocs of chicken defrosting, and she said, "OH IM NOT DRINKING OR EATING ANYTHING FROM YOUR FRIDGE WITH THAT NASTY DOG CHICKEN IN THERE DEFROSTING."

As calm as I could, I replied, "You know.. thats the same chicken _people_ eat. And Im pretty sure most people defrost their _human_ chicken in their fridge too."

And my brother keeps telling me Im going to get salmonella. I said, "ALL MOM EVER MAKES IN HER HOUSE IS CHICKEN! SHE BUYS 20 POUNDS AT A TIME AND CUTS IT UP ON HER COUNTER AND PORTIONS IT FOR MEALS! SHE HAS _NEVER _HAD SALMONELLA!!!"

Sometimes people just disagree with things because its different than what they are used to and they aren't open to new things.


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

i love how people think they are going to get salmonela from touching or being around raw chicken....

As long as your not licking your fingers or rubbing the dang thing on your face or in open wounds, your pretty darn safe.

also salmonela has to be present for you to even get it. If the chicken is "clean" your not going to get salmonela (which are not, to my cats disapointment, little salmons)

Now excuse me i have raw chicken i need to go rub on my toothbrush......


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> i love how people think they are going to get salmonela from touching or being around raw chicken....
> 
> As long as your not licking your fingers or rubbing the dang thing on your face or in open wounds, your pretty darn safe.
> 
> ...


haha my parents get it though.

My brother said "And then the dog got through the door and dropped the chicken on the floor!"

my mom said, "And that upset you because you were planning on _licking _the floor?"

Ugh my moms a hoot!

My dad also knows thats not ALL chicken will give them salmonella. ONLY INFECTED CHICKEN WILL!


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

4dogs3cats said:


> haha my parents get it though.
> 
> My brother said "And then the dog got through the door and dropped the chicken on the floor!"
> 
> ...


Evil infected chickens. My Chickens wont even talk to them "hhmmp!! " 



Tell him to lick the floor next time.  Or he can come my way and stick a baby turtle in his mouth.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Oh you guys crack me up. Thanks 

Up until I started feeding raw like a week ago, there never was raw meat in my house, beyond maybe a few hamburger patties. I think in the past 5 years I've been living out of my parents house, I've prepared chicken three times? But even I know you don't go leaving it laying about and licking it, and you'll be fine. I keep our "dog chicken" in baggies, and wash it and the bowls. I even wash the baggies so I can reuse them, they get a thorough washing with hot water, soap, etc.

I bet those same people who freak out about the dog chicken salmonella don't wash their hands after using the toilet. No offense to your relatives of course  But for some reason most men don't think they need to wash every time and I'd rather touch dog chicken than pee-hands. 

If someone ever freaks out in my house about dog chicken, I'll point out that they touched me and I'm raw meat too. Assuming they've touched me. I have cooties. 

Oh, and why is it only salmonella? Don't other meats have germs? Why is it chicken that gets all the blame? lol.


----------



## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

8 years ago when I started feeding raw my vet was not thrilled.... but Connor wasn't getting bed (IBD/Colitis) and what choice did we have.... Connor improved and so did his chronic ear infections on the raw diet.... We then switched everyone.... they had a new Vet come to the practice who started handing me scare story articles, I thanked him, tucked them away for future reference in case a puppy person got one so I could address the arguments and moved on.... That vet has since left the practice.... and 8 years later my vet and several of his staff have started feeding raw components to their dogs. 

In my time there have been two people who I have recommended not feeding a raw diet.... The first was a woman who had a very young child and I was not sure how well he was supervised.... and if he could get into the bowl after the dog ate so I suggested a high quality kibble (I give my puppy people a list of kibble to choose from) the second was a family whose daughter had a liver transplant and there were concerns about dog eating and then licking the girls face..... with her weakened immune system due to anti rejection drugs it seemed best for them to go again to a high quality kibble. 

Otherwise everyone at my vets knows I feed raw.....have weaned puppies to raw.... and you can't argue with success..... 

HOWEVER, I do feel it is important for them to know..... on three occasions.... we have needed to have xrays done on the dogs abdomen... due to them having dietary indiscretions one dog eating a whole pile of muffins in metal muffin cups and the other eating clumping cat litter that landed in his stomach and that bone that we feed will show up on an xray in their stomachs and colorectal system..... and twice I had vets freak out.... thinking they needed to go in for immediate surgery.... to remove blockages becuase they saw all these white bits on the xray..... 

it is important for your vet to know what you feed..... 

I wouldn't necessarily change vets.... I would find a holistic/homeopathic vet in your area to use in conjunction wiht your traditional vet, but my vet and his techs learned.... and I would hope the others could as well. 
s


----------



## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

My vet sells science diet, but she doesn't recommend it. When she first started her practice she didn't sell science diet, but she had so many clients who wanted it and kept asking for it, she started carrying it. I don't know how she feels about a raw diet, but she is always excited to hear when someone's dogs actually eats a better kibble. When we got Lloyd the shelter was feeding science diet, we switched him to innova puppy and she told us that it was a much better choice than SD, even though she sells it. I like my vet.

Also, so many vets recommend science diet because Hills funds most veterinary schools minuscule nutrition classes. Most veterinarians get very, very little nutrition schooling. If they really want to learn about it they need to do it on their own.


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Shalva thank you for the detailed reply! Chance has only seen this vet once, for his neueter 9 months ago. Im not overly attached to him.

I have only had one vet that I LOVED who got down on the floor with my dog, and played with them, and you could tell wasn't uneasy at all. A vet that worked at the vets office I was kennel help at. But I dont enjoy the head vet there much and he is always on duty as he lives upstairs.

Oh well.. my dogs rarely go to the vet unless its an emergency, which they are kind enough to wait until late at night for, which means E-Vet anyway


----------



## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

I was at the vet today with mac (dip time) and my georgia-cat. I switched her food from basically any grocery store food to Wellness a couple of months ago. She's been itching - and I noticed some scabbed areas. I took her in and the vet recommended finding a food without corn, wheat or beef which commonly cause allergies. I asked if she recommended anything - silly me - and she then recommended K/D for the older kitty, purina, or alpo. 

uggg. It's just so disappointing to hear something like that. This is one of the vets I NORMALLY steer away from. There are four in the practice...I try to always see one in particular...but she hadn't gotten in yet.


----------



## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

The problem with the opinion of vets on raw food is that their opinion is biased, and essentially paid for. Hills pays for a lot of the vet training classes they go for, and no surprise Hills also owns "Science Diet".

In addition, vets aren't really specialized in animal nutrition, they are trained to do basically like what our doctor is paid to do. I wouldn't go to my regular doctor if I had serious questions about what I was eating, i'd probably go to someone who specificlly trained in the field of nutrition. I don't see why it would be any different for a dog. 

Vets generally benefit a great deal when people buy science diet and iams off their shelves. I think some places even get up to 50% commission on it; and the whole perscribtion food is a total waste of money imo. I was told Pandora had to be put on one of the SD foods and she did better on solid gold/blue buffalo (just didnt like it) so we feed raw as well.

Surprisingly enough I have a vet who doesnt push a raw diet but when I took Pandora in for her check up last week he noted that I fed a raw diet, looked at her coat, teeth and was very pleased and also mentioned she doesnt have "dog breath" and he asked if i ever brush her teeth.

I told him raw bones do it for me.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Regarding bacteria in chickens...

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...hicken-safety-1-07/overview/0107_chick_ov.htm

Also, although we talk a lot about chicken, most bacteria that apply to chicken meat also applies to other meat. And as been previously stated, handling raw meat is all about common sense...wash your hands while you sing Happy Birthday or Yankee Doodle, both twice through...and you're good to go. I keep a squirt bottle with 5% bleach:water on hand for the countertops. 

Having worked in medical labs, the majority of bacterial gastroenteritis is caused by things like pot luck meals where food sits out way too long or may have been improperly prepared to begin with and eating out at fast food joints and restaurants. I have also seen a lot of infections from eating sushi (usually because it is left out too long) and in human immigrants to the US who routinely eat raw or undercooked meat.

If as a raw feeder you are feeding rabbits be sure they are from domestic sources as wild rabbits can carry tularemia, often fatal to humans. It's endemic in our local wild rabbits so I don't even consider it for my dogs.

On pork (and wild game meat) and trichinosis:

http://www.askthemeatman.com/pork_Trichinosis.htm

If you are feeding wild game of any kind be sure to check the CDC website to see if wasting disease is present in your area. Know the person who gutted the animal and ask if the organs looked normal. And never eat or feed brain /spinal matter from wild game as this is where the infectious agent (known as prions) are found.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/cwd/


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

PS: I've heard tons of stories about people getting e Coli from their salad lately, but nothing about raw meat.


----------



## Linda C (Jan 1, 2008)

Here's some research I ran into. I don't mean to upset anyone, just thought you'd want to know.

Here's a summary of a study showing the extreme salmonella risk in the BARF diet. This information is quoted in it's entirety from the National Institutes of Health web site.


Quote:
ABSTRACT
This preliminary study assessed the presence of Salmonella spp. in a bones and raw food (BARF) diet and in the stools of dogs consuming it. Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P < 0.001) and from 30% of the stool samples from dogs fed the diet (P = 0.105). Dogs fed raw chicken may therefore be a source of environmental contamination.

INTRODUCTION
A current trend among dog owners is the feeding of “natural” diets. Proponents argue that the processing methods used to produce commercial pet foods destroy essential nutrients and enzymes. They believe, therefore, that commercial pet foods do not meet the nutritional needs of dogs and may be a source of chronic health problems. One natural diet, proposed by Billinghurst (1), is commonly referred to as the BARF (bones and raw food) diet. It consists of pieces of whole raw chicken together with vegetables. Claims made for this diet by its champions include improved immune function and overall health, increased energy, improved coat and skin condition, and decreased body odor for the dogs that are on it (1). No publications, other than anecdotal testimonials, support or refute these claims. In one small-scale study, the nutritional adequacy of several “natural” diets was examined: significant nutritional imbalances existed (2).

Feeding raw chicken to dogs is a concern, given the many bacterial pathogens (especially Salmonella spp.) that are commonly present in raw poultry (3). Billinghurst (1) suggested that these pathogens are rendered harmless by the uniquely adapted canine intestinal tract. No reports documenting clinical salmonellosis in dogs fed a BARF diet have been published, though Salmonella spp. are well-described pathogens in dogs (4,5).

Since dogs are a potential source for several zoonotic pathogens, feeding raw meats to dogs is also a public health concern (5). Given the current popularity of the BARF diet, concern about environmental contamination with Salmonella spp. from the stools of dogs fed this diet is obvious. There are no published studies examining that aspect of this nutritional trend. The present, preliminary study was conducted to determine if dogs fed a BARF diet shed Salmonella spp. in their stools.

MATERIALS & METHODS
Ten client-owned dogs fed a homemade BARF diet and 10 client-owned dogs (controls) fed various commercial dry dog foods were enrolled in the study. Clients were aware of the purpose of the study prior to the collection of any samples. Inclusion criteria were that the subjects had to be more than 1 y old and generally in good body condition, and they could not have undergone oral antibiotic therapy within the previous 2 mo. Prior to sample collection, the study animals were fed their usual diet (BARF or commercial) for at least 2 mo.

One meal-sized sample of food and 1 fresh stool sample were collected from each test subject by the owners. Samples were promptly presented to the chief study investigator, who submitted them to the Provincial Laboratory of Public Health for southern Alberta, where they were cultured for Salmonella spp. The specific serovar of any Salmonella sp. isolated was serologically identified. This laboratory is routinely used for detection of foodborne pathogens by the Calgary Regional Health Authority and is very experienced in the culture and identification of Salmonella spp. from food and stool samples.

The data were analyzed with a commercial software program (SAS System for Windows, Release 8.0; SAS Institute, Cary, North Carolina, USA). The Salmonella spp. culture-positive rates were compared between BARF and commercial-diet groups with 1-sided Fisher's exact tests (6).

RESULTS
The culture results from the food and stool samples are summarized in <a href="http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339295&rendertype=table&id=t1-15">Table 1.</a> All food and stool samples from the controls were negative for Salmonella spp. Eighty percent of the BARF-diet samples were positive for Salmonella spp.: S. Braenderup and S. Schwarzengrund were each cultured from 3 samples, and S. Hadar was cultured from 2 samples. Thirty percent of the dogs fed a BARF diet had positive stool cultures for Salmonella spp.: 2 samples yielded S. Schwarzengrund, and 1 was positive for S. Braenderup. One BARF-fed subject had S. Schwarzengrund cultured from both its food and its stool sample. One subject that had S. Schwarzengrund cultured from its food sample had S. Braenderup identified in its stool sample. Another dog with a negative food sample was shedding S. Schwarzengrund in its stool.

From the results of this limited study, a BARF diet is significantly more likely than a commercial diet to contain Salmonella spp. (P < 0.001), and BARF-fed dogs are more likely than commercially fed dogs to shed Salmonella spp. in their stools (P = 0.105).

DISCUSSION
This preliminary study found that 30% of stool samples from dogs fed homemade BARF diets contained various Salmonella serovars, whereas none of the samples from dogs fed commercial dry diets contained Salmonella spp. Although these results are suggestive, they are not statistically significant owing to the small number of dogs studied. Larger numbers of dogs or multiple stool samples from each dog might have allowed the results to reach statistical significance. Unfortunately, the limited funding to this private clinic for this study did not allow for the inclusion of more study animals or multiple cultures from individual subjects. Though interesting, the fact that 80% of BARF food samples cultured positive for Salmonella spp. is not surprising, given the well-documented prevalence of Salmonella spp. in raw chicken (3). The fact that none of the commercial food samples cultured positive for Salmonella spp. was not unexpected.

Of the 3 positive stool samples, 1 was from a dog whose food contained the same Salmonella serovar, 1 was from a dog whose food contained a different serovar, and the 3rd was from a dog whose food tested negative. The stool cultures may have reflected previous dietary contamination. Given the high number of positive food cultures, one could speculate that had multiple stool samples from dogs fed a BARF diet been assessed, more than 30% of them would have yielded Salmonella spp.

The results of this preliminary study prove that some dogs fed a BARF diet shed Salmonella spp. in their stools. This fact should be a consideration for owners choosing to feed this diet and be of especial concern for those with young children, the aged, or other people who may have compromised immune systems. We hope that this study will serve as an impetus for further study, with more subjects and multiple stool samples from each subject, to fully elucidate the public health concerns of this popular feeding trend. Given the high percentage of BARF diets that were positive for Salmonella spp. on culture, strict hygiene must be implemented when handling this food. In addition, the food bowl, the feeding area, and the pet's mouth must be considered as potential sources of Salmonella.

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS
The authors thank Dr. C. Booker for assisting with the statistics and Mr. Larry Crowe for helping with the cultures. CVJ

This study was funded in part by the Animal Welfare Foundation of Canada.

Address correspondence to Dr. Daniel J. Joffe.

Reprints will not be available from the authors.

REFERENCES
1. Billinghurst I. Feeding the adult dog. In: Give Your Dog a Bone. Alexandria, Australia: Bridge Printery, 1993:265–280.
2. Freeman L, Michel KE. Evaluation of raw food diets for dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001;218:705–709. [PubMed].
3. Houston DL. USDA and Salmonella control. Proc 91st Annu Meet US Anim Health Assoc, 1987:454–460.
4. Green CE. Salmonellosis. In: Infectious Diseases of the Dog and Cat, 2nd ed. Philadelphia: WB Saunders, 1990:235–240.
5. LeJune JT, Hancock DD. Public health concerns associated with feeding raw meat diets to dogs. J Am Vet Med Assoc 2001;219:1222–1225. [PubMed].
6. Daniel WW. Biostatistics: a Foundation for Analysis in the Health Sciences. 4th ed. New York: Wiley & Sons, 1987:537–552.



You can see the article on the NIH site at http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=12058569


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Ten dogs? I'd love to see a real scientific study of anything that involved a sample of TEN. What commercial foods? Did the dogs and owners know each other? If one barf user gets their meat from the same place as 5 others, that bad meat could be to blame. If they all know each other, a lot of people who do barf will often share a grinder (was IT clean?) or split up meat. This is an incredibly flawed study. 
Also that article is 6 years old. Do they have anything newer? 

Everyone knows you have to use good hygiene when dealing with raw meat, whether it goes in the dog's mouth or in an oven. 

Oddly enough they also had this article I found on their site: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11602026 about fibromyalgia sufferers benifiting from a raw vegetarian diet. I thought that was interesting. I'd love to see more info on that diet. Of course, in that study they used a whole 30 people - wow, 10 more than the 20 dogs. Haven't these people ever heard of how to get a sample?


----------



## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

small samples probably get the intended results.


----------



## 2puppimsmom (Mar 16, 2008)

I don't tell any vet that we feed raw. Because I told our vet about our raw diet we had a puppy misdiagnosed when he got sick. He died. He had Parvo. The vet was treating him for Salmonella because of his diet. When we took our puppy in with diarrhea and vomiting, she asked what we were feeding him. We told her the BARF diet. She did not test him for Parvo or Salmonella. She just gave us some pills for Salmonella and told us to bring him back if he got worse. Well he got worse and we took him back in. The night emergency vet tested him for Parvo. 10 min. after we got him in there, he was diagnosed with Parvo. He died a few days later. He would have had a better chance if he had been treated for Parvo instead of Salmonella. I have used the BARF diet for almost 14 years now. Until now I hadn't had any sickness in my dogs until now. I didn't know anything about Parvo until we got our puppy. If I had I would have done things differently. But I will not tell a vet I feed the BARF diet. When I started the BARF diet I was taking our dogs to a homeopathic vet. She was the best vet I ever had. She approved the raw diets. She said the dogs that she saw in her office,that were on the raw diets were healthier and their teeth stayed cleaner and they had softer,shinier coats. Sadly she died of cancer. Or I would be taking my dogs to her yet. I started the BARF diet because I had a 5 yr old German Shepherd die of cancer. That dog was raised on Iams. I decided to read and research everything I could find on natural diets for dogs. I came across the book "Give Your dog a Bone" by Ian Billinghurst. He is the Australian vet that developed the BARF diet. We have changed vets. We are not going to the vet that misdiagnosed our puppy or test him for Parvo or Salmonella. Where we live we have a lot of Parvo. And most vets test for Parvo the very first thing when somebody takes a sick dog or puppy in to them.


----------



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Criosphynx said:


> small samples probably get the intended results.


Actually, it was probably a pilot study used to suggest further areas of research, thus the small sample size.


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Linda C said:


> Here's some research I ran into. I don't mean to upset anyone, just thought you'd want to know.


I have seen this study and others with similar results. Ohio State Univ did a study a few years ago with many dogs. If I remember right it was a couple of hundred but I can't remember the exact number. I was asked to participate in that study but declned. It had basically the same results as the study above.

What this study should have mentioned was that no dogs got sick. None of the humans in the houses got sick. If you handle stools and don't wash your hands, salmonella won't be your only problem. Don't let your children play with stools. Millions of people handle raw chicken several times a week without a problem.

This and other studies like this are merely trying to create a problem where none exist. I THINK most all stools of most all animals contain e-coli. A little salmonella is not a big deal.

Even if you get salmonella poisoning, its usually not a big deal. You get diarrhea for 2 or 3 days and it goes away on it's own. Rarely does it become anything more.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Salmonella infections in dogs and cats deserve special comment for several reasons related to zoonotic transmission: 
Salmonella spp. can be isolated from healthy dogs and cats at rates of up to 36% and 18%, respectively. 
Dogs and cats tend to shed Salmonella organisms for very prolonged periods of time after infection. 
Dogs and especially cats can shed Salmonella organisms in both their feces and saliva, meaning that transmission can occur via licking. 
Pig ear dog treats may be a source of Salmonella infection for both dogs and humans that handle the treats. 
Dogs and cats may suffer salmonellosis as a "reverse zoonosis," with infection transmitted from human-to-dog and subsequently back to other humans. 
Similarly, outbreaks of Salmonella infections in large animal teaching hospitals have been linked to the introduction of bacteria from infected human personnel, with subsequent spread to animals and then back to other human workers. 


Entire article:

http://www.vetmed.wisc.edu/pbs/zoonoses/GIk9fel/Salmonella.html

Salmonella contaminated kibble Pedigree recall:

http://petcare.suite101.com/article.cfm/salmonella_in_cats_and_dogs


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Anything can be taken out of context to support either side. For example:

"The vast majority of human cases of salmonellosis are, however, acquired not through direct contact with animals, but rather by ingestion of contaminated foods." (I'm more likely to get it from not cooking my hamburger well, then from letting my dog lick my face)

"However, overall rates of Salmonella contamination of meats in the U.S. have been dropping in recent years, from 10.65% in 1998 to 3.6% in 2003 (USDA data). " 
(Less and less meat overall to affect me OR my dogs)

"The feces of virtually any animal may be a potential source of Salmonella."
(meaning kibble fed cats and dogs as well)


----------



## TwoSweetBabies (Apr 28, 2008)

I just wanted to put my 2 cents into this discussion...
I feed Innova adult and my dogs are doing great on it...
I have had a couple vets advise me to switch to something like Purina or Science Diet, and at first, it does make me wonder if they are just trying to line their pockets. Now while I am sure that some (possible most) are just trying to sell their brand, I am not convinced that that is the only reason they suggest these commercial diets.
My fiance is in Vet school right now, and there are various nutrition classes that are required (I know, because I see the books! haha). And I personally think that the reason Vets suggest commercially popular foods is because they see far greater amounts of dogs on these diets, than on the less common diets, and therefore they know it works for most dogs. I do not think Vets in any way want to harm our dogs or would purposefully suggest a food that would harm our animals. They are simply suggesting that the more common foods have YEARS AND YEARS of COMMON use behind them, in contrast to the newer trend of food like Raw, Innova, Canidae, etc, which are not as commonly used. You find very few dogs who have lived their whole lives on diets like RAW, Innova, Canidae, so its hard to say if they really live better?
You have to think, these people have gone through rigorous schooling, schooling that is said to be much harder than school for becoming a human doctor, and get paid MUCH less once they finish. Their lives were dedicated (had to be) to becoming a Vet, and that says something. Sometimes you have to trust someone like that over what you read online.
Now it is very unlikely that I personally will ever feed a diet like Science Diet or Purina, because I personally believe they have things in them I would prefer my dogs not to have. 
However, I realize that there is no guarantee that Innova is any better (or even as good) as the brands like Purina, or Science diet, because there just simply arent dogs that have lived their whole lives on the less conventional diets, therefore there is little proof. And thats just the risk you take when making a decision.


----------



## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

> Brought Chance in for his 3 year rabies vac today. This is how the convo went.
> 
> "So I see here you are feeding a raw...meat....diet?"
> "Yes I am, for all 3 of my dogs."
> *"Ohhh...okay.... well we actually highly highly disapprove of a raw diet*."



Now that statement just Pi$$** me off  They highly disapprove!!! Good Lord, who they hell to THEY think they are!? That's the sort of attitude almost every one of my Vets has taken towards everything - they know nothing, no one else should even be qualified to own dogs, really, except Vets, becuase they are just so educated  Geez. 
There are two things I try to avoid telling new Vets. First is that I try not to disclose when a dog or pup I bring in has been bred by me. When they walk in the office, it's a beautiful, healthy looking, playful pup - when they hear I bred it, their face goes long and blank. They don't know what to say. I can tell they're holding back on criticisims - but ain't nuttin' to criticize, ROFL! They get checked over for bad knees, hernias, bites, heart murmurs. My dogs never get a thorough checkup unless I mention I bred them. I even had one the other day go over a 15 week old pup for "baby" cataracts (I suppose she meant juvenielle cataracts?). 
I also do not mention that I supplement with raw. If I get asked what I feed, they get told Purina and nothing else. Even when I fed all raw, I hardly ever mentioned it. They all had good muscle tones, weight, teeth, eyes, mucous membranes, etc. until I mentioned raw. Then, all of a sudden, my dogs were malnourished things that needed sugar filled Pet Tabs for $30 a fricken bottle ... 



> "....Oh... I see. Is there a specific reason?"
> "Well.. the parasites and the bacteria.. it's not not recommended."
> "Oh...I see. Well I have done a lot of research and it works for us."
> "Let me ask you, is there a specific reason why you are feeding a risky diet to achieve the _same result_?"
> ...



Hmph. Unbeliveable. I can understand suggestions but this Vet is telling you outright that he/she doesn't want your dogs on raw! I have a clause in my contract that Iams/Eukanuba is not to be fed, we experiences so many urinary/kidney/ temperament change related issues on that food when they switched formulas AGAIN about 2yrs ago. 
Sorry you had to go throught that rigamarole at the Vet's office ... If the Vet really has an issue with how you care for your animals, it's time to find a new Vet, IMHO. I draw the line when they go from making suggestions on telling me how to care for obviously healthy dogs to outright telling me they don't go for this or that. And to be quite honest, with all the bad Vet experiences I've had, I've learned that if my Vet doesn't recommend it, that it's probably something that will take $$$ out of their pockets, lol.


----------



## fyzbo (Jun 19, 2008)

TwoSweetBabies said:


> I just wanted to put my 2 cents into this discussion...
> I feed Innova adult and my dogs are doing great on it...
> I have had a couple vets advise me to switch to something like Purina or Science Diet, and at first, it does make me wonder if they are just trying to line their pockets. Now while I am sure that some (possible most) are just trying to sell their brand, I am not convinced that that is the only reason they suggest these commercial diets.
> My fiance is in Vet school right now, and there are various nutrition classes that are required (I know, because I see the books! haha). And I personally think that the reason Vets suggest commercially popular foods is because they see far greater amounts of dogs on these diets, than on the less common diets, and therefore they know it works for most dogs. I do not think Vets in any way want to harm our dogs or would purposefully suggest a food that would harm our animals. They are simply suggesting that the more common foods have YEARS AND YEARS of COMMON use behind them, in contrast to the newer trend of food like Raw, Innova, Canidae, etc, which are not as commonly used. You find very few dogs who have lived their whole lives on diets like RAW, Innova, Canidae, so its hard to say if they really live better?
> ...


I think this is the one flaw of the internet, it makes everyone feel like an expert, so much so that they ignore the real experts. It is also a big problem with medicine. It used to be that when you got sick you went to the doctor and he prescribed a medication, now pharmaceutical companies are marketing directly to patients so people walk in to their doctors office an ask for a specific drug. Personally I trust a doctor to find a cure for my ailment rather then a tv commercial. It's the same thing here, I trust my vet more then posts on internet forums/yahoo answers/etc.


----------



## UrbanBeagles (Aug 13, 2007)

Criosphynx said:


> yeah, even when Twitchy had diarhea they didn't ask, they just treated him..
> 
> They say the internet is no substitute for vet advice, but man, som'times im not to sure with the winners i've seen.



Now THAT is the best advice I've ever heard on the internet, lol! I completely agree ...


----------



## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

TwoSweetBabies said:


> I just wanted to put my 2 cents into this discussion...
> I feed Innova adult and my dogs are doing great on it...
> I have had a couple vets advise me to switch to something like Purina or Science Diet, and at first, it does make me wonder if they are just trying to line their pockets. Now while I am sure that some (possible most) are just trying to sell their brand, I am not convinced that that is the only reason they suggest these commercial diets.
> My fiance is in Vet school right now, and there are various nutrition classes that are required (I know, because I see the books! haha). And I personally think that the reason Vets suggest commercially popular foods is because they see far greater amounts of dogs on these diets, than on the less common diets, and therefore they know it works for most dogs. I do not think Vets in any way want to harm our dogs or would purposefully suggest a food that would harm our animals. They are simply suggesting that the more common foods have YEARS AND YEARS of COMMON use behind them, in contrast to the newer trend of food like Raw, Innova, Canidae, etc, which are not as commonly used. You find very few dogs who have lived their whole lives on diets like RAW, Innova, Canidae, so its hard to say if they really live better?
> ...


Excellent post, thank you! 

Your vet is for medical problems, if you have a question about nutrition please see a nutritionist.



fyzbo said:


> I think this is the one flaw of the internet, it makes everyone feel like an expert, so much so that they ignore the real experts. It is also a big problem with medicine. It used to be that when you got sick you went to the doctor and he prescribed a medication, now pharmaceutical companies are marketing directly to patients so people walk in to their doctors office an ask for a specific drug. *Personally I trust a doctor to find a cure for my ailment rather then a tv commercial. It's the same thing here, I trust my vet more then posts on internet forums/yahoo answers/etc*.


Good post, I second this.



Criosphynx said:


> wasn't science diet _actually_ decent food like _ten years ago_?


Yes it was and I think even longer than 10 years ago. I fed it for many years and my dogs at the time lived until they were 16-17 yrs with no big health problems. Everything changes with time......


----------



## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Whenever I change vets, I will interview several. I will make an appointment and visit in person telling them I feed raw and get their feelings on it. I also discuss vacs with them. I try to have a conversation of about 10 or 15 minutes or more to get a feeling for their knowledge and attitude. After I have interviewed 4 or 5, I will make a decision.

I am really impressed when they act interested in raw feeding and ask intellegent questions about it.

BTW: I always confirm up front that I am not to be charged for the interview. If they insist on charging, I just take that vet off my list. Also, all this should be done before you actually NEED a vet.


----------



## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

I fortunately have not had to change vets lately.... 

the problem I have with many vets is that they overstep their boundaries and some of them are just horrendous.... horrendous but what is that they say about half graduate at the top of their class and half graduate at the bottom.... 

I have seen vets do incredibly stupid things.... 

I dont really care if the vet AGREES with me about the diet I feed my dogs.... while they may understand basic nutrition, they don't get alot of training in nutrition.... but I do expect them to respect the decisions I have made and move on.... I do think it is important that my vet know I feed a raw diet.... 

interesting little aside.... 

many years ago when I was planning my very first litter.... I called my vet because I was panicked about whelping the pups.... (I love this vet... he is outstanding ) and I asked him if I could sit in on a whelping or whatever so I could see firsthand and know what I would need to do (I am a planner if nothing else and I dind't know anyone else having a litter for me to watch at) and he said to me that he didn't really know about normal litters because all he ever sees are the problems..... which made perfect sense.... 
He generally sends people having a litter to talk to me.... either before hand to convince them not to breed their pet store puppy, or after when they are looking for help wiht the whelping or the raising of pups. 

Vets can be wonderful or they can do alot of damage.... I have way more respect for them when they know their limits and don't let their ego take over.... 

I remember on a plane I was watching a conversation between a vet and her seatmate and I remember her saying... that Science diet was the rolls royce of pet foods..... *sigh*


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Shalva said:


> Vets can be wonderful or they can do alot of damage.... I have way more respect for them when they know their limits and don't let their ego take over....


Oh, ugh, human doctors, too. I DO NOT trust a doctor to "find a cure for my ailment", I actually trust vets more  . I haven't been to an allopathic doctor since I was 12, when an unwanted vaccine was FORCED upon me against my will. I agree that too many people are trying to treat themselves without proper knowledge, but there's nothing wrong with arming yourself with treatment ideas and possibilities BEFORE seeing the doctor (or vet).


----------



## buzonesbirdie (Mar 24, 2008)

My dogs are not feed raw..I want to feed raw but my stepson who owns Lady and Bella, does not want to feed raw so i am not sure how to feed one dog raw and the other two kibble, but my ferrets are feed raw and when my vet asked what they were being fed and i told him all he told me was to make sure that I was feeding the correct ratio of meat,muscle,bones, and hearts,livers and all. He also always comments on how nice their fur is and how well their teeth look. He is trying to help me convice my stepson that feeding the dogs raw would be best for them.


----------



## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I have fed raw for a few years now. But I don't think raw is for everyone. If your son is not inclined to do the research and figure out a menu for his dogs then they are probably better off on a high quality kibble.


----------



## buzonesbirdie (Mar 24, 2008)

briteday said:


> I have fed raw for a few years now. But I don't think raw is for everyone. If your son is not inclined to do the research and figure out a menu for his dogs then they are probably better off on a high quality kibble.



I know the thing is we all live together and I do the feedings. He is one of those people who thinks that kibble is better and that his father and i am nuts for feeding the ferrets raw


----------



## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

If your dogs are on raw and his isn't, please feed them separately. As briteday said, raw is NOT for everyone and I think you should respect your stepsons wishes. I also happen to think kibble is better.


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

At the vet clinic I worked at before moving to the Twin Cities, they knew my oppositions to 'traditional' diets; and I had alot of 'proof' to back it up...especially in regard to all the excess fillers, and 'main ingredients' like corn, corn meal, etc. I just told them that those foods just weren't for me; they may work for some owners, but I just didn't like the results I would see. They did, however, respect my view, especially because my dogs were exceedingly healthy. 

Right now, I have most of my animals on super premium diets, such as Solid Gold, and Taste of the Wild. They are very healthy, and full of energy, have great coats, etc. 

Sophie, however, is making the switch to raw, only because this seems to be the only diet that is working for her after she was poisoned a few weeks ago. She just can't digest anything 'processed'...she may eventually, but right now, she can't have anything of the normal sort of dog foods. So far she is doing well on it.


----------



## buzonesbirdie (Mar 24, 2008)

Patt said:


> If your dogs are on raw and his isn't, please feed them separately. As briteday said, raw is NOT for everyone and I think you should respect his wishes. I also happen to think kibble is better.


All three dogs are on kibble--the only animals in the house that are raw feed are the ferrets
--i do respect his wishes but that doesnt mean that i cant talk to him and tell him why i want to feed raw and why i think its better. I am not forcing him to do anything he doesnt and if he wants to stay on kibble then so will my dog since they are feed together


----------



## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

Love's_Sophie said:


> At the vet clinic I worked at before moving to the Twin Cities, they knew my oppositions to 'traditional' diets; and I had alot of 'proof' to back it up...especially in regard to all the excess fillers, and 'main ingredients' like corn, corn meal, etc. I just told them that those foods just weren't for me; they may work for some owners, but I just didn't like the results I would see. They did, however, respect my view, especially because my dogs were exceedingly healthy.
> 
> Right now, I have most of my animals on super premium diets, such as Solid Gold, and Taste of the Wild. They are very healthy, and full of energy, have great coats, etc.
> 
> Sophie, however, is making the switch to raw, only because this seems to be the only diet that is working for her after she was poisoned a few weeks ago. She just can't digest anything 'processed'...she may eventually, but right now, she can't have anything of the normal sort of dog foods. So far she is doing well on it.


I am so sory Sophie was poisoned. Is she doing okay?


----------

