# Recall, offlesh concerns, and.. shock collar?



## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

(I'm new here, and I did look but couldn't find a similar thread. Newb! If there is one like this PLEASE redirect me!)

I have a 9 month old Siberian Husky. Generally speaking she is well trained and listens to me. One of the only areas of concern I have is getting her to come back reliably when she's offleash. Food and excitement is nowhere near a good enough reward compared to playing with other dogs at the dog park or chasing birds. I've been working with her extensively at the dog park (as well as at home) at she does come back but she might choose to intercept a dog on the way or grab a toy and shake it or run in circles before actually coming back.

I don't think this is the type of forum where people stereotype breeds and will jump down my throat about having a husky offleash in an unfenced area. Everything I've read says never do it. I know what they have been bred for, I understand prey drive and all that. To me that just means I need to work harder on it. If I never practice and she won't come back, what chance do I have if she ever breaks her collar or rips the leash from my hands to chase a rabbit?

That said, I don't know that I could ever trust her 100% offleash. I love to go hiking, biking, etc. and I would love to be able to have her stay offleash to explore where allowed, but stay close and come back immediately when I call. I am considering a shock collar. It's not something I think of lightly as I strongly believe in positive reinforcement, but treats, toys, affection, and excitement just aren't enough. I understand the risks involved, both physical and also including creating negative associations by zapping at the wrong times or creating other effects. I would ideally not want to use it, but I am considering training her on it to have that backup in case she ever does bolt- and training her to respond to vibration or sound settings instead of shock.

Does anyone have any other ideas for getting a dog to come when called? Any experience with proper shock collar training and use?


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

My only recommendation is if you're going to go the shock collar route that you enlist the help of a trained professional before using it on your dog. You may create a problematic dog by not using the tool correctly.

That said, I would up the ante on the treats (make them super special) and keep practicing. She's only 9 months - she's still all puppy still in my opinion.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

I think it is very unfair to your dog that you chose to get an on leash breed & then want to resort to a shock collar to get off leash behavior for your own wants...I don't think a shock collar should ever be used to teach basic obedience!


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

It is NOT to teach her basic obedience. Never! It is to have as an emergency backup should she make a break for it and not respond.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

One of the best pieces of advice I ever got for working on recall was to practice a lot of "recall and release" - meaning, don't only call your dog to, say, come in the house or leave the park.

You can start just in your yard without a lot of other dogs to distract her -- every time she comes when called, treat and praise her generously, then release her back to continue what she was doing. Then you can start to do the same thing around the other dogs -- being released back to play with the other dogs can be used as a reward. So, you're teaching your dog that the fun isn't necessarily going to end just because you called her and that it's worth it to check out what you might have for her.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I have been doing that since she was in puppy classes at 9 weeks old. I do it at the dog park, and at home. Call her over, lots of treats and happiness, then "go play!"


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Ah, sorry, I didn't realize that.

I don't have any experience with shock collars, but I'm not necessarily opposed to them in the hands of someone who knows how to use them properly. 

Having said that, 9 months is pretty young. Personally, I think I'd give her some more time to grow up before I'd decide that what I was doing wasn't enough.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Do you "test" the recall?

What I mean is, do you ever call her just to see if she'll come, and she doesn't?

I've heard some anecdotal evidence that it may be more beneficial to never call the dog when you cannot A) reinforce AND B) be willing to bet $100 that your dog will come. If you can't guarantee both of those conditions, you got and get the dog. Never let her make the choice to ignore a recall. In the event of an emergency, an actual if-she-doesn't-come-now-she-will-be-hit-by-a-semi emergency, you call her and she'll come. It's past conscious thought at that point, it's an ingrained pattern. 

After that emergency (hope it never happens), you still never test the recall and continue to build reinforcement history.

I would also like to add your dog is the equivalent of a 16 year old girl. I was one once, and they're idiots. They grow out of it though.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

First post was getting long so I didn't want to make it even longer with all the details  Is there a thread about prey drive? That's really my concern with her. I'm able to take her on walks around the neighborhood offleash and she stays right at my heel and responds beautifully to verbal commands, but I KNOW that if there was a squirrel or something she'd dart after it if I didn't see it in time to tell her to wait- she'll wait if it's a dog on the other side of the street, but I seriously doubt she'd not chase a critter. Fortunately with winter creeping in the critter count is down. I know she is young, but being a husky and with their rep to chase and wander and run forever it's something I do want to work on really hard while she's still young and create good habits. Never too late to teach an old dog new tricks though.

Agility classes have really helped her offleash obedience too and she does pay much better attention. We've only been in 7 weeks so I have hopes that she'll continue to learn to pay attention to me despite the most intriguing and exciting distractions.

Raegan, I don't call her unless I'm 99% sure she'll come (always that 1% at this point that a dog at the park will come jump on her and she'll play instead), and I do get her if she refuses. It is ALWAYS reinforced, even at home. I'm not the person that will stand there going "come here puppy! come on! come here! hey puppy!" while she's not even listening and is in the middle of playing.

I was 16 year old girl once too, and I couldn't agree more  I really do think she'll grow out of it and it will eventually be reflex to come when called but I have a bit of concern for now. I would really like to avoid the shock collar..


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I actually think it's pretty good for a puppy her age to come when called at the dog park where there is heaps of distractions, even if she stops to sniff something or pick up stick/toy on the way. She still came, and she's still a puppy, and she's a breed that's known to have issues with recalls.

I'd say if you keep working on it with positive methods, then she will have pretty reliable recall as she grows older. You never use shock collars on puppies, so even if you decided to go that route, you'd have to wait until she's older.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

I'd heard 6 months was the youngest you would ever want to use one? I know weight factors in too, she's 40lbs. That said, I have shocked myself with a collar before on a low setting of 2 in my hand (it went from 1 to 8 and could provide x2 shock!! imagine being shocked at a 16?!) and my palm was tingling for a good 5 minutes. At a 2. It's scary and I can't stress enough how cautious I would be and I would definitely go to a pro who had a lot of experience with shock collars. I've seen and heard some awful stories about uninformed people using shock collars in all the wrong ways.

*I think you guys have successfully knocked some sense into me to realize she's still pretty young and I can't have a perfectly trained dog at 9 months. What a godsend that would be!* Thank you all for your advice and tips.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Sibe said:


> *I think you guys have successfully knocked some sense into me to realize she's still pretty young and I can't have a perfectly trained dog at 9 months. What a godsend that would be!* Thank you all for your advice and tips.


Opinions differ. With most dogs, 9 months is plenty old enough to use an e-collar. However--there's always a "however"--you should be as certain as you can be that you've gotten all the goodness out of more conventional means. If you haven't trained bomb-proof recall in a few dogs, then you can't really know if you're making optimum progress. Not all Sibes are born recalcitrants, but you can't know if yours is one unless you have developed some expertise in reading a dog. I suggest you consult an experienced trainer _before_ working with the e-collar.

It's more time and money, but it would probably be best to work with a trainer who will use non-force methods to begin with. The biggest advantage to compulsion is its biggest drawback. That is, it works very quickly. Force/compulsion should not be a substitute for proper training practices. Many pro trainers use it to speed up the process and maximize their time, and some are too willing to push the envelope. Compulsive techniques can also produce quick results for a trainer who lacks adequate experience and dog sense.

Think of it like power tools. A real, old-timey carpenter can accurately rip a board with a hand saw, but it takes years to develop his kinds of skills. A power saw can get the non-expert homeowner making accurate cuts in a very short time. The learning curve is truncated, and the work is made much more efficient. When things go wrong with power tools, however, they can get really messy in the blink of an eye.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Sibe said:


> I'm able to take her on walks around the neighborhood offleash and she stays right at my heel and responds beautifully to verbal commands, but I KNOW that if there was a squirrel or something she'd dart after it if I didn't see it in time to tell her to wait- she'll wait if it's a dog on the other side of the street, but I seriously doubt she'd not chase a critter.


How does your dog correctly distinguish between an actual critter and a 3 lb Yorkie ?

... sounds dangerous to me.



I would keep her 100 % leashed up on all walks, until she has had MUCH MORE proofing with distractions under controlled circumstances.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

sassafras said:


> Ah, sorry, I didn't realize that.
> 
> I don't have any experience with shock collars, but I'm not necessarily opposed to them in the hands of someone who knows how to use them properly.
> 
> Having said that, 9 months is pretty young. Personally, I think I'd give her some more time to grow up before I'd decide that what I was doing wasn't enough.


Agreed with too young, I would first put dog through an obedience course and get some months of that type of work before thinking of e-collar stuff. You are putting the cart before the horse.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> How does your dog correctly distinguish between an actual critter and a 3 lb Yorkie ?
> 
> ... sounds dangerous to me.


 It's more that I'm able to see a person walking a yorkie before they are close enough to warrant my dog running up to say hi. As soon as I notice the other dog, I typically leash her and we continue walking. If she is VERY focused on the other dog I have her sit and wait until they go by.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Sibe said:


> ...I'm able to see a person walking a yorkie before they are close enough to warrant my dog running up to say hi. As soon as I notice the other dog, I typically leash her and we continue walking.


Relying on your ability to detect another dog, before your dog does, is pretty dicey business.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

> I would also like to add your dog is the equivalent of a 16 year old girl. I was one once, and they're idiots. They grow out of it though.


OMG lol that is so true! For dogs & people LMBO.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I agree that nine months is a bit young to be considering that she should have a rock solid recall. Recall training is pretty advanced, especially under distractions.
I personally find that NOT expecting a recall at the DP or under prey situations until you've done much more work is a smart way to do it. 
It may be worthwhile for you to purchase Leslie Neilson's dvd "Really Reliable Recall" before spending the high bucks for a good quality ecollar and a trainer. Her dogs are sighthounds..you don't get much harder recall/prey training than that. 
If after putting in a couple of months of that program you feel you have not made enough progress then a GOOD negative reinforcement ecollar program and trainer who is experienced in that tool and R- may get you there. 

As for the prey drive training. I premacked the squirrel chasing with my scenthound mix. It works well. Premack is similar to what Sassafrass described with the "return to play"...Dog on leash, go to safe area where there are squirrels, dog sees squirrels and is asked to SIT (it's a slow sit in the beginning...because the focus is on the squirrel) when sit happens dog is released ON CUE to go chase the squirrel. I make sure squirrel is near a tree and not near a road etc first for I would prefer she NOT catch it...
Eventually what I got was an automatic wait if prey was spotted and a focus onto ME for the cue. It was not so difficult for her to accept if I said Leave it, because she knew that maybe the next one she would be able to go after it. It's the ultimate in variable reinforcement.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

a little off topic but i just found this vid of a trainer testing an ecollar on people at the levels it should be used on dogs (when they barely feel it) just to put some perspective on those that have seen it used incorrectly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6ObCoIJh3I

realize that if you decide to use the collar for recall you will have to start at square one. The dog needs to understand what the stim means

this shows the basics http://www.youtube.com/user/PatNolan#p/u/21/2YRmnqZUWXw


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

There are also collars that merely vibrate & others that spray citronella as well, just options if you don't want to go the shock route.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

**update**
We went to the huge dog park today. She was amazing. She came back every single time I called! She is also getting to where she checks in on her own to get treats. Yes!! I'd give her a few pea-sized treats, excitedly love on her, then send her off to play again all within about 10 seconds. There was only one time she ran off after a few other dogs and didn't come back (I didn't call because I couldn't even see her) but as soon as she saw me she bounded over on her own (called as she got closer to reinforce it) and sat for treats. Of course right when I start thinking we need more professional training and consider a shock collar, she proves to me how good she can be at her age. What a good girl! I am so proud of her.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

I really think huskies can read people's minds!

At 7 weeks, Sophie knew how to sit on command. It took a few days to teach her down, shake, and go to bed. Now that she's a teenager, she knows these commands but shes becoming selective and more like this ----->:lalala: She can tell when my patience with her runs low and I can see her mind thinking :decision: and she'll do what was asked and then come up and give you a nice kiss on the cheek, sit in front of you and look up with sweet puppy eyes. a minute ago you could see this....:evil:

Ilya is the only one I can sort of trust off leash. He doesn't venture more than 20 feet from me and I wondered if his previous owners had used a shock collar with him because he gets nervous if he's too far away.


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

First, never call her to you if you have any doubts she will come. Always use something she's absolutely crazy about to reward her when she does come. Unless you are 100% certain she will come, always have her on a long line so that if she refuses, you can make her come to you - then never forget the treats. Never scold her when she comes to you. Carry a squeaker with you. If she is off leash and you know she probably won't come to you, use the squeaker, turn around, and RUN away from her. Most likely she will chase YOU. Then lavish on the treats. Never forget the treats.


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