# Willfully irresponsible or woefully ignorant?



## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

This morning, starting at about 4:30AM, a dog started barking. Colby was going nuts. A lab mix was loose in my neighborhood; had clearly gotten away from his home. He was wearing a collar with some tags on it, but no ID tag...no phone number, address, or even a name. He is about 2 years old. Oh, and one more thing: he is not neutered. 

I just don't see the point of not having your dog fixed (when s/he is of age, of course) unless you intend on breeding. Can't imagine you'd be willfully breeding a mix... But that's another thread.

At around 5AM, when my (half-asleep) fiance took Ace outside to potty the dog charged them. Everyone is OK, and I don't think the dog meant any harm, in the early (dark) morning it's hard to determine intentions. I was going to just ignore the situation and go to work, but I couldn't help myself. Around 6 when I was leaving, I drove by the residence club and saw that the dog was tied up out front. I stopped and spoke to one of my neighbors who said she had caught him and tied him there.

When I saw him up close, I could tell he was a happy, goofy lab, but I'm infuriated. I'm mad that someone's un-neutered dog was running around the neighborhood. 

I'm sure it was an accident. I'm sure the owners didn't intentionally let him out, but you know what? If you are not going to have your dog fixed (or even if it is fixed, for that matter), you had better be damn sure you know exactly where s/he is at all times. If s/he can jump your fence, then s/he needs to be on a leash (with you) or tethered when s/he goes outside.

When I was younger, my parents had a dog that jumped the fence. It was terrify and irritating all at the same time. So, we got an invisible fence. When he started bolting through that (and over the fence) we tethered him between two large oak trees in the yard. Problem solved.

Despite my fear of being flamed for writing this, I called animal control. It had been an hour and 1/2 of BARKING and rushing people and dogs. We had seen no hide nor hair of anyone seemingly looking for a dog. I don't have a yard to put him in. My neighbor is in the same situation. Both of us have dogs and couldn't bring him inside our home. The alternative was to leave him tethered to a tree in front of the residence club. You might have done differently and if I hadn't been leaving for work, I'm sure I would have, too. My rational is that at the shelter he'll have food and water and be safe. There, the owners can go find him. Besides, I think they should be fined for being so irresponsible. I mean, an hour and a 1/2? C'mon. The development I live in is not that big. All it takes is a phone number on a tag. I would have been happy to call.


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

I certainly wouldn't flame you for calling AC. Any time I've found an animal that I don't know and who has no tag with owner's number on it, I call AC. It's for the animals own good, they could get lost of hit by a car running loose. I don't know what your AC is like, but ours is not an evil, stereotypicals, "dog catcher", they are there to help us. Sure, you might get a ticket for having a dog running loose, against the leash law, but they also help reunite lost pets with their owners. I've managed to get several dogs and a cat returned to their grateful owners promptly because we both called AC. If I'm in a position to keep the animal in my home, I tell AC where I have it and they relate it to the owner when found. If I can't keep it (because it seems ill or doesn't get along with our dogs), AC picks it up. If it was an accident that that dog got away and he was lost, the owners will be very happy you called AC, even if it means a fine for the loose animal.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

If it's the first time, then I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the people. Some people are heavy sleepers, maybe they didn't know he'd escaped and it was the first time. I would have called animal control as well to be honest, I've had enough of people around here letting their dogs wander and thinking they'll come home eventually - so I pop the dog into a crate, and if nobody is looking by the end of the day, they'd be heading to the shelter here and I'd post signs saying where they can find their dog.

My dogs are not neutered, and yes, Ticket has gotten out the odd time, but it's usually five minutes and I'm out the door looking for him and if he did find a date I would certainly pay half of an emergency spay. If Storee is in season she's under lockdown and watched very closely, so it's yet to be an issue. Yes, intact dogs of both sexes and we don't have any oops litters.... imagine that!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't think there's anything wrong with calling AC. But, what kind of tags DID the dog have on? Rabies tags should have an ID# and vet clinic information, and city licenses also usually have an ID# and city contact information, so with either of those a dog can usually be identified albeit in a more roundabout way. Not that it's your job to do so, but just for future reference.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I really wonder about people sometimes, I never knew just how stupid seemingly responsable people could be until I started working at the daycare/kennel and have to bite my tounge as owners are telling me how they are getting rid of (for an actual example) their intact male bloodhound because they cant let him off leash out the front door without him running off.


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## ArlosMom (Jan 4, 2012)

I get easily frustrated with situations like this. I don't think it was wrong to call AC. The dog will be safer, and possibly the owners will learn a lesson. I hear toooooo many dogs in my neighborhood who bark ALL.NIGHT.LONG. They are left outside ALL of the time. It's awful, and heartbreaking. There is one dog in particular that hangs half way over a 6-7 ft concrete wall EVERY time we walk past it. I am just dreading the day he gets all the way over....


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with calling AC. But, what kind of tags DID the dog have on? Rabies tags should have an ID# and vet clinic information, and city licenses also usually have an ID# and city contact information, so with either of those a dog can usually be identified albeit in a more roundabout way. Not that it's your job to do so, but just for future reference.


For the record, I actually did think about that, but it was 6AM and a full 2 hours before the vet's office opens. I wasn't in a position to stay with him for that long. Hopefully AC will do that when they get him back to their facility.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

You did the right thing. I had a dog get loose once, I was at work, I work 24 hour shifts. I have my ex husband who comes by to feed and walk the ones he can, occasionally I have an aggressive dog or two here.

Anyway, raven had chewed through the back door, into the screened in porch and ate everything back there. Several pairs of boots, tools, oil containers, a BBQ grill, saddle blankets, and a bucket of rat poison, that was closed inside of another bucket.

I came home to find this, took her to the vet, after treatment she was fine, I'm still amazed at this. My point is things can happen, she was secured in a fenced yard, and latched door. The door is now metal, and the fence completely electrified. Harsh, yes, but better than a dead dog.

We don't have animal control in the county so loose dogs are a huge problem. None are neutered, and they all show up here when one of the females are in heat. Electric fence again stops any problem dogs. AC in the city euthanizes dogs after three days, sometimes longer. If tags are present they may attempt to contact the owner, but its not a good thing here.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

melundie said:


> For the record, I actually did think about that, but it was 6AM and a full 2 hours before the vet's office opens. I wasn't in a position to stay with him for that long. Hopefully AC will do that when they get him back to their facility.


I'm not criticizing how you did things. There have been times when I've seen a loose dog on my way to work, try unsuccessfully to catch it, and the best I can do is call AC. You're not AC, AC is AC. That's what they're there for.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I won't flame you for calling AC. You can't just leave the dog tied a tree and hope that their owner will notice them there. He could have been miles from home, and his owners may not have even known he was gone at the time.

I'm not going to bash the owners for their dog getting out. If you've had a runner, you know how quick and sneaky a dog can be in their determination to get out. What I will bash the owners for is a) unneutered dog. You're not showing or legitimately breeding a lab mix, his balls need to come off, and may have caused his wandering in the first place, and b) no information tag. Tags are cheap, easy way to help ensure your dog finds his way home and nobody uses them. It's absurd.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Bordermom said:


> <snip>
> 
> My dogs are not neutered, and yes, Ticket has gotten out the odd time, but it's usually five minutes and I'm out the door looking for him and if he did find a date I would certainly pay half of an emergency spay. If Storee is in season she's under lockdown and watched very closely, so it's yet to be an issue. Yes, intact dogs of both sexes and we don't have any oops litters.... imagine that!


So you'd pay half of an 'emergency spay' if your dog came into another persons yard and impregnated their breeding bitch? How gracious of you 
As I informed someone who's intact dog was in my yard because my bitch was in heat ... It's *MY* yard I should be able to keep my dog on my property without having loose intact dogs come visit ... and I informed that if that dog came into my yard one more time (he was a frequent guest) I would personally take him and drop him off at ASPCA and hope they had time to neuter him before he got picked up again.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

hast said:


> So you'd pay half of an 'emergency spay' if your dog came into another persons yard and impregnated their breeding bitch? How gracious of you
> As I informed someone who's intact dog was in my yard because my bitch was in heat ... It's *MY* yard I should be able to keep my dog on my property without having loose intact dogs come visit ... and I informed that if that dog came into my yard one more time (he was a frequent guest) I would personally take him and drop him off at ASPCA and hope they had time to neuter him before he got picked up again.


Many loose dogs get shot around here. You can't take them to AC, and the humane society is always full. Its really a sad situation.my electric fence works well, though last year my fences and power were out when we had tornado damage. Had to board the dogs then. So its on me if one of my breeding bitches get with a stray male.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

To the OP...if you have time, maybe post a few flyers in your neighborhood saying "Found" dog, and when the owners call you, you can talk to them about neutering (and if you know of any low cost neutering in your city, tell them about them). You could also offer suggestions on how to keep their dog from getting out...chicken wire buried if digging under, electric fencing if jumping out, or no jump harnesses, or trolley type tie outs.) Then tell them he is safe at AC, and can be picked up there.

If you are fearful of the owners, just put on the flyers "now at Animal Control".


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

hast said:


> So you'd pay half of an 'emergency spay' if your dog came into another persons yard and impregnated their breeding bitch? How gracious of you
> As I informed someone who's intact dog was in my yard because my bitch was in heat ... It's *MY* yard I should be able to keep my dog on my property without having loose intact dogs come visit ... and I informed that if that dog came into my yard one more time (he was a frequent guest) I would personally take him and drop him off at ASPCA and hope they had time to neuter him before he got picked up again.


I agree, I don't think offering to pay 1/2 of an emergency spay would be sufficient compensation if your intact male were to escape and knock up a bitch who was secured in her own yard. If the bitch was also running loose, you might have a point, but you can't assume he'd only get to another loose dog.

Year ago, I knew a guy whose intact American Bulldog got away from his mother (who was walking the dog on a leash). Mr. Bulldog ran down the street in about three minutes, with Mom chasing him, jumped the fence into someone's backyard and impregnated a much smaller bitch of a different breed, who was being kept by a breeder and secured in her own yard. Don't remember what breed of dog she was, but the owner filed a successful lawsuit against the guy.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I believe also that you did the correct thing. The outcome could have been worse for the dog such as getting killed by a car or worse ... My Mom a long time ago found a stray intact male Poodle mix ... never found the owners ... took him to the vets and got his vaccines and took him to the groomers ... had an appointment for the neuter ... but before he ever got to be neutered he bolted out the door and ran off down the street into a persons yard who had a female in heat ... he was shot on sight right in this persons back yard ......... and around here that is according to law ... allowed. Poor dog!  I felt horrible!  I still do.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

The dog is safer in the shelter than on the street, and easier for the owner to find. Even if your neighbor doesn't agree, I think you did a good deed. 

"Ignorant" or "informed?" You might be unaware of the significant health risks associated with neutering (see the link below). I'm not trying to let your neighbor off the hook for letting a dog roam, even if it's accidental.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## giapet (Jan 14, 2012)

Agreed on all fronts. I'm not a perfect dog owner (it's my first time having one on my own), but I am frequently enraged by people's passive and lazy attitudes towards caring for their dogs.

We once took in a dog overnight that was wandering our neighborhood. The dog was microchipped, but the information had never been updated...we had to track down the owner with some Google-fu. Then it turned out they were our next door neighbors! We never heard them outside calling for the dog or anything. And worse, after we gave the dog back, we DID hear them outside calling for him...because he had presumably gotten out again.

I understand that some dogs are escape artists but there are ways to deal with it.

I also understand your need to call AC. We called them once for a dog that was sitting outside of another neighbor's house all night. it was not that neighbor's dog; he had no collar and growled when anyone even tentatively approached. The fact is that no one in the neighborhood was equipped to handle a large and potentially dangerous dog in that situation...and most people aren't.

As it happens, I am fortunate to live in an area where nearly any dog that is up for euthanasia will be taken in by another shelter, and our local municipal shelter is also full of very nice people who care for the animals they take in as best they can. So sometimes animal control is necessary, and sometimes it's decidedly less evil than it can be.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

DustyCrockett said:


> The dog is safer in the shelter than on the street, and easier for the owner to find. Even if your neighbor doesn't agree, I think you did a good deed.
> 
> "Ignorant" or "informed?" You might be unaware of the significant health risks associated with neutering (see the link below). I'm not trying to let your neighbor off the hook for letting a dog roam, even if it's accidental.
> 
> http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


If they are letting their dog roam, and risk being killed by a car, shot by a person, picked up and used as a bait dog, or injured in a fight, or accidentally poisoned by ingesting something, I seriously doubt the dog isn't neutered due to any percieved health risks.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I hate the term "fixed" with a freaking vengeance. You don't "fix" a dog. You spay or neuter it. If anything, once you've spayed or neutered, you broke it.

/pet peeve



> I just don't see the point of not having your dog fixed (when s/he is of age, of course) unless you intend on breeding


I've got an intact 7 year old purebred GSD here in my home who is not neutered, and is unlikely to be. He'll never be bred, and he is not a show dog.

I don't like to spay/neuter without just cause anymore because I generally do not think it is in the best interest of the dog, and I'm extremely paranoid about putting my dogs under anesthesia.

Strauss has gotten away from me 2 or 3 times in his life. All of them were in my presence, and none of them were for a pretty girl.

It was rabbits >.< Damn hoppers.

It's fine that you called AC...the dog is not your responsibility, I just don't like to see people being judgmental because others choose to have intact dogs...mutts or otherwise...even if they're not showing.

Heck, for all you know, the dog isn't neutered because he has a health issue that prevents him from being put out.


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> What I will bash the owners for is a) unneutered dog. You're not showing or legitimately breeding a lab mix, his balls need to come off, and may have caused his wandering in the first place, and b) no information tag. Tags are cheap, easy way to help ensure your dog finds his way home and nobody uses them. It's absurd.


Agreed. 



spotted nikes said:


> If they are letting their dog roam, and risk being killed by a car, shot by a person, picked up and used as a bait dog, or injured in a fight, or accidentally poisoned by ingesting something, I seriously doubt the dog isn't neutered due to any percieved health risks.


I have to agree, here, as well. I think a more likely scenario is the owner "doesn't want to do that to the poor guy." I've heard that excuse from lots of people who try to anthropomorphize their dogs. I'm guilty, too! But not enough to not have my pets spayed or neutered.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

I wanted to say I find nothing wrong with calling AC - you probably helped save a dogs life.



Xeph said:


> I hate the term "fixed" with a freaking vengeance. You don't "fix" a dog. You spay or neuter it. If anything, once you've spayed or neutered, you broke it.
> 
> /pet peeve
> 
> ...


I also wanted to say that I really LIKE all of this ^^^^^^^^.


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I hate the term "fixed" with a freaking vengeance. You don't "fix" a dog. You spay or neuter it. If anything, once you've spayed or neutered, you broke it.
> 
> /pet peeve
> 
> ...


Per the first part of your reply, I was being lazy when I typed "fixed" vs. "spay/neuter". On the flip side, it could potentially "fix" some problems (like exploring the neighborhood to spread his seed, for example). Regardless, please don't take offense to the verbiage. 

It's your business whether or not you get your pet spayed or neutered. However, you need to be vigilant if you're not going to have your male neutered. It's completely irresponsible to let him run the neighborhood, whether it's an accident or not. My main point was that the dog was out for at least an hour and 1/2 before I called animal control. Don't you think if your dog was missing, you'd be busting your butt trying to find him or her? I don't know about you, but I don't typically leave my dog in the yard without supervision. Even when it's fenced. Even for a short time.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> It's completely irresponsible to let him run the neighborhood, whether it's an accident or not.


There's a reason it's called an accident.

I hate it when the word "irresponsible" is tacked on to something that's an accident. I don't find it irresponsible that somebody's dog accidentally escaped. I'd find it irresponsible if the person KNEW their dog was escaping time and time again, and wasn't taking steps to fix the issue. I'd find it irresponsible if the person just let their dog go and wander the neighborhood, with no thought to anybody else (regardless of whether the dog was altered or not).

If you've never seen the dog loose before, I'd give the owners the benefit of the doubt.



> Don't you think if your dog was missing, you'd be busting your butt trying to find him or her?


Of course. But that doesn't mean that where I'm looking is where the dog IS.



> I don't know about you, but I don't typically leave my dog in the yard without supervision. Even when it's fenced. Even for a short time.


Then you're a better person than me. I used to be out with my dogs every time I let them out....now I have things to do in the house, and, rather than shut my dogs up in crates for hours, I put them outside and check periodically (every 5-10 minutes).


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I hate it when the word "irresponsible" is tacked on to something that's an accident. I don't find it irresponsible that somebody's dog accidentally escaped. I'd find it irresponsible if the person KNEW their dog was escaping time and time again, and wasn't taking steps to fix the issue. I'd find it irresponsible if the person just let their dog go and wander the neighborhood, with no thought to anybody else (regardless of whether the dog was altered or not).
> 
> If you've never seen the dog loose before, I'd give the owners the benefit of the doubt.
> 
> Then you're a better person than me. I used to be out with my dogs every time I let them out....now I have things to do in the house, and, rather than shut my dogs up in crates for hours, I put them outside and check periodically (every 5-10 minutes).


Or more paranoid. Like I mentioned in my OP, my parents had a dog who was an escape artist. He was a Golden Retriever. Now we have Border Collies. BCs won't have any trouble jumping a stockade fence. Let alone a six-footer. 

And yes, if you let your dog out and don't check on him periodically, it is irresponsible of you, even if it's technically an accident that he got out.

I'm not trying to boast or pretend like I'm a better person that you. I feel like checking every 5-10 minutes is completely reasonable. The point is, if you're checking every 10 minutes, you'll realize before an hour and 1/2 that your dog is missing. Even if you don't know exactly where he went. In my case, our development is small. And pretty secluded from anywhere else. The dog was barking in the square out front of my house for over an hour. And his bark was loud enough to wake me up. I sleep like a ROCK. You'd think he'd be easy to find.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Like I mentioned in my OP, my parents had a dog who was an escape artist.


Ah, but there I agree with you. If I have an escape artist dog, he (or she) is absolutely NOT left alone unattended! None of my dogs are escape artists (at least, they have not proven to be), so I do extend them a small modicum of trust in the yard.

I certainly wouldn't leave them outside for hours on end with no checking at all, regardless of their (lack of) inclination to escape. In that manner, I am also paranoid.

I would like to be clear that I wasn't snarking at you personally, by the way, with my mention of the pet peeve of the term "fixed". Nor was I trying to be snarky when I said you're a better person than I, lol.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Two of my neighbors recently had missing dogs, neither was recovered. One was a shih tzu, then owners son was visiting, while he was still sleeping, the son let the dog out to pee, they looked for months, probably coyote food.

The next was a stray, the lady took in, as she does most lol, neutered, did all his vet stuff, but they stay loose. Most people here keep dogs out, not many fenced yards. The whole pack makes neighborhood rounds, and there is a hunting club that borders my farm. They have been known to shoot dogs, to keep them from running deer. She looked for him night and day, still looks and puts up flyers.

I seriously wish all loose dogs around here were spayed or neutered.


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## MightyAchilles (Dec 20, 2011)

The first day we adopted Achilles, we took him to a friends house and he hopped their giant fence as if it were just a few inches high. (I would guess it is about 5 feet tall or so) Now that he is settled in and doesn't want to be more than a few feet away from us, if I let him outside to run around the yard he will sit there pawing at the door unless I go out there with him.

The one exception is if we take him over to Lauren's brothers house. He is absolutely in love with their Boxer who is about the same age as him. She is his doggy wife, and as soon as we get there nobody else exists haha... she is the only dog that does that for him so far though. 

If I had the opportunity I do not think checking in on the dogs every 5-10 minutes is unreasonable, especially if they are intact and have been acting like they know something is up in the neighborhood. You definitely did the right thing, and I would not even think twice about that. Perhaps he is chipped and can be identified that way. If not, it is completely the owners fault for not having a tag with identification on the dog.


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## giapet (Jan 14, 2012)

Xeph said:


> I hate it when the word "irresponsible" is tacked on to something that's an accident. I don't find it irresponsible that somebody's dog accidentally escaped. I'd find it irresponsible if the person KNEW their dog was escaping time and time again, and wasn't taking steps to fix the issue. I'd find it irresponsible if the person just let their dog go and wander the neighborhood, with no thought to anybody else (regardless of whether the dog was altered or not).


Fair point, and of course it can take a few tries to find a solution that works for everyone. 

I suspect that emotions run high on this issue because there ARE a lot of people who are neglectful to their pets, and too often the result is that a perfectly happy and loving pet winds up in a pound and then euthanized due to that neglect. When you see a dog loose like that, it's very easy to allow the frustration with all the neglectful owners result in thinking badly of the dog's owner, regardless of what that owner's situation might really be. :\


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Ah, but there I agree with you. If I have an escape artist dog, he (or she) is absolutely NOT left alone unattended! None of my dogs are escape artists (at least, they have not proven to be), so I do extend them a small modicum of trust in the yard.
> 
> I certainly wouldn't leave them outside for hours on end with no checking at all, regardless of their (lack of) inclination to escape. In that manner, I am also paranoid.
> 
> I would like to be clear that I wasn't snarking at you personally, by the way, with my mention of the pet peeve of the term "fixed". Nor was I trying to be snarky when I said you're a better person than I, lol.


No harm, no foul. Wasn't trying to be snarky either!


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## lisahi (Jun 19, 2011)

We have TONS of stray dogs here. There's an attitude towards dogs here that is... well... different than I'm used to.

Still... accidents happen. The dog I grew up with was an escape artist. Our house was on stilts and no matter how hard we tried to block every single passage under the house, she found ways to escape. She wasn't an outdoor dog, but she would go outside using the doggie door, and then make her escape. She would always stay close to the house, but I can imagine other dogs would want to explore.

My friends recently lost their two labs, who escaped after high winds blew the gate to the backyard open. The dogs usually have tags but, as luck would have it, weren't wearing them at that moment. Turns out a family picked up the dogs in the nearby park the same day they went missing, and didn't bother to bring them to a vet to see if they were chipped (which they were, and it is the law here). They were, very likely, going to just keep the dogs. Apparently they had a change of heart when they saw the very many signs put up looking for the dogs and ultimately called my friend. They had the dogs for a week by then.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> If they are letting their dog roam, and risk being killed by a car, shot by a person, picked up and used as a bait dog, or injured in a fight, or accidentally poisoned by ingesting something, I seriously doubt the dog isn't neutered due to any percieved health risks.


If it's my dog, he's loose without my knowlege, and intact due to percieved health risks.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

melundie said:


> This morning, starting at about 4:30AM, a dog started barking. Colby was going nuts. A lab mix was loose in my neighborhood; had clearly gotten away from his home. He was wearing a collar with some tags on it, but no ID tag...no phone number, address, or even a name. He is about 2 years old. Oh, and one more thing: he is not neutered.
> 
> I just don't see the point of not having your dog fixed (when s/he is of age, of course) unless you intend on breeding. Can't imagine you'd be willfully breeding a mix... But that's another thread.
> 
> ...


Colby & Ace are cute enough to eat, I just had to say that .

I feel you about uncaring owners, in my naighborhood I think I'm the only responsible person, EVERYONE else let's their dog run all over creation chasing ppl/cars... It's infuriating I know , I don't understand why some ppl have dogs.


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

Last summer, I babysat my Mom's dogs for a couple weeks when she took a trip to BC. I had to take my sons in to a Dr's appt in the city after they'd been at my place for about a week. The dogs were fed, walked, watered and shut in the house while we went in to the city for a few hours. I had to stop at my Mom's place on the way to the Dr. to pick up dog food (after driving for about an hour and a half). Just as I step in the door there, her phone is ringing. She's calling home from BC (she knew I was stopping at her place before the Dr.) to let me know she got a call on her cell letting her know that Kobe (the male) had been picked up by animal control. To this day, I can only guess at how the dogs got out. When we arrived home, we found Katie in the yard waiting for us and the neighbour across the street had kindly put out water for her. I picked Kobe up from the boarding kennels that AC drops strays at. The air conditioner vents had been knocked out of the window, but the opening was still too small to fit a dog through as far as I could tell. So either they miraculously squeezed through, or maybe the 7yo human child had let the dogs slip past him unnoticed on the way out (that seems unlikely because they're hard to miss and not that sneaky). I was baffled by the whole thing. 

My point here is that I had no way of knowing the dogs would be able to get out. I still don't know how they did. I was gone for well over an hour thinking they were secured inside the house. By your logic, I was "letting them roam" and "irresponsible". The dogs didn't have schnazzy name tags with anyone's phone number(except the vet's on the rabies tag) on them. They each had their rabies and city license tags and they are both tattoo'd and microchipped. With that info, AC was able to identify Kobe and contact his owner...even though she was out of the province. I have no idea why you seem to think that having a do it yourself ID tag is more responsible or important than other forms of dog ID because the information is there and available on all those other methods. 

Nobody is perfect. I loathe people who let their dogs roam intentionally just as much as you. I judge people who repeatedly allow their dogs to "escape" just as much as you. But if your community is as small as you say it is and you've never seen this dog before, relax until you see it at large again.

There is nothing wrong at all with calling AC. They can help identify the dog and return it to its owner. That's a good thing, even if it does result in a fine. However, in my area, with the purchase of a license, every dog gets one "free ride home" because people make mistakes and the most foolproof plan can prove to be flawed when put to the test.

On the topic of loose males knocking up bitches in their own yards...I think if the bitch is fenced in and the male hopped a fence, then the male's owner should be fully responsible. If the bitch is on a tie-out though....that's like fishing for it  Either way though, if I had a female in heat, she wouldn't be unsupervised outdoors at any point, no matter how nice my fence was. That's just me though.


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## abigail1989 (Nov 22, 2011)

Some dogs are escape artists, try to give these people the benefit of the doubt. I think it's wildly irresponsible to not fix your animals, but whatever, that's another thread. Maybe the horror associated with losing their dog coupled with the fine they'll get from AC will make them more cautious in the future.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Well, I'd certainly not allow him to go roaming the neighborhood, but Marlin isn't fixed and I certainly don't intend on breeding him. I figure at 6 years of age, he's had them this long, he can keep them. There's nothing wrong with having an intact dog, so long as you're willing to be responsible for them. But even in those cases, sometimes crap happens. He had a collar and tags, so it's obvious someone cares about him and is probably looking for him. If this were something that was happening a lot, I'd agree, but I wouldn't be that angry on a first offense.

You did do the right thing by calling animal control however. Atleast there, they can work on trying to contact his owners by his tags, as opposed to just sitting tied to a tree for Lord knows how long.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Yes, the first time the dog gets out it can be classified as an accident. The second time I'd question that label. If the dog got away from you more than twice - in 5-6 years - and doesn't come when called, it's definitely not an accident any more, especially if the dog is intact.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

hast said:


> Yes, the first time the dog gets out it can be classified as an accident. The second time I'd question that label. If the dog got away from you more than twice - in 5-6 years - and doesn't come when called, it's definitely not an accident any more, especially if the dog is intact.


Not quite....

My female Peanut hasn't been spayed yet. Never plan on breeding her, I'm just letting her mature before I spay her. She is an escape artist. Total times escaped: 7 and yes I've counted. Total times attempted to keep her from escaping: 9. Every time I think I've outsmarted this girl she out smarts me. I've even taken to standing outside with her, and I've witnessed her jump the fence with me on her heels. She always returns, and is never out for longer then 5mins alone. The longest was after I tethered her and she chewed through her tether while I accidently passed out from the flu. She was out 15mins and my older dog followed. Luckily she went to visit my parents and they brought her inside. Total time loose: 10mins but she was missing from me for 15mins. I've caught her jumping a fence with her tether on her, climbing under another fence (which is why the first fence is up there because the other fence is broken) and getting tangled in a tree. 

I've fixed the fence, tethered her, I've raised the fence, I'm up to a 7ft fence in places and I've witnessed her climb that fence and caught her at the very edge. It's actually illegal here to tether my dog at all. I've worked my behind off keeping this dog in my yard. This Spring I have plans to build a fence to keep her in along with Coyote rollers and other improvements, but it has to wait until the ground thaws before anything happens. Right now I have cameras set up to watch the dogs when they are outside or I'm taking her out on lead but that little girl is so smart, she even knows how to unlatch her leash if I'm not watching her like a hawk.

I'm not irresponsible with my dogs, she just happens to be really REALLY good at finding ways to escape after the cats next door who tease her. Yes for most people it's just plain irresponsibility. For a few people like me, It's just a dog that is too smart and drives you freaking mad.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea Maisy learned to jump our fence, too, and like Peanut thwarted all attempts at supervision and every temporary measure we put into place while we were scrambling to get the fence replaced with a taller fence. At least she never went more than one house away down the alley.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> <snip>
> I'm not irresponsible with my dogs, she just happens to be really REALLY good at finding ways to escape after the cats next door who tease her. Yes for most people it's just plain irresponsibility. For a few people like me, It's just a dog that is too smart and drives you freaking mad.


I beg to differ ... if your dog keeps getting out you either only walk it on a leash (since it then couldn't jump the fence or otherwise get out) or train the dog to stay put.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

Denial is not a river in Egypt.


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

Red Fraggle said:


> Last summer, I babysat my Mom's dogs for a couple weeks when she took a trip to BC. I had to take my sons in to a Dr's appt in the city after they'd been at my place for about a week. The dogs were fed, walked, watered and shut in the house while we went in to the city for a few hours. I had to stop at my Mom's place on the way to the Dr. to pick up dog food (after driving for about an hour and a half). Just as I step in the door there, her phone is ringing. She's calling home from BC (she knew I was stopping at her place before the Dr.) to let me know she got a call on her cell letting her know that Kobe (the male) had been picked up by animal control. To this day, I can only guess at how the dogs got out. When we arrived home, we found Katie in the yard waiting for us and the neighbour across the street had kindly put out water for her. I picked Kobe up from the boarding kennels that AC drops strays at. The air conditioner vents had been knocked out of the window, but the opening was still too small to fit a dog through as far as I could tell. So either they miraculously squeezed through, or maybe the 7yo human child had let the dogs slip past him unnoticed on the way out (that seems unlikely because they're hard to miss and not that sneaky). I was baffled by the whole thing.


That's a really crazy story and you're lucky the dogs weren't seriously hurt.  When my parents were newlyweds, they had a dog that was an escape artist. He learned to open doorknobs and deadbolts. When my parents went on vacation my grandfather was watching him and he escaped and was hit by a truck and killed. That was over 25 years ago, when crate training was generally seen as cruel.

This particular case seems to be a great argument for crating your dogs if you ask me.



hast said:


> I beg to differ ... if your dog keeps getting out you either only walk it on a leash (since it then couldn't jump the fence or otherwise get out) or train the dog to stay put.


My thoughts exactly.


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

Agree. We have two smart and athletic dogs (ACD mix and BC mix). They do not go outside unless accompanied by a human. They are not the kind of dogs you could ever just put out alone in a fenced yard.


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## Duke G (Dec 13, 2011)

hast said:


> I beg to differ ... if your dog keeps getting out you either only walk it on a leash (since it then couldn't jump the fence or otherwise get out) or train the dog to stay put.


Thanks, Hast. After reading all of the posts about dogs jumping fences, etc. I was wondering if anyone had considered something called a "leash", lol.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have never had a neutered dog and so far, have never had any of them escape or breed anything they were not supposed to. The only "accidental" litter I had was when I had a Rhodesian Ridgeback Female. She had her Championship and C.D. degree and I was going to breed her. She was in season and when I came home, I let her out of the car to take her in the house and she just bolted, raced to the neighbors with me in hot pursuit but before I could catch her, the neighbor's shepherd x collie had bred her. Should have had her on leash but she had always been so obedient.

She ended up having seven puppies and that was back when you just gave cross-bred puppies away so I found homes for all of them.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

hast said:


> I beg to differ ... if your dog keeps getting out you either only walk it on a leash (since it then couldn't jump the fence or otherwise get out) or train the dog to stay put.


And you do realize that she also escapes the leash right? Knows just got to move so that 2 out of 3 leashes will unbuckle (I use the 3rd one now and finally it's been a month since she's gotten loose)? I've been yelling at my other dog while he was offside (he can be outside offleash without an issue but he was wondering too far off) to look down at the leash and she was gone :-/. She also knows how to unlock my back door and walk out it (Changed the way the door locks to fix that one but what a surprise to go looking for your dog to find the back door wide open and your dog jumped the fence again). Front door doesn't always latch correctly and the wind can cause it to unlatch and she can push open doors so you have to be triple careful if your walking out the front door.

Also "Train the dog to stay put" that's a laugh. You do realize there are some dogs that just can't be trained for that. That's why they have to be behind fences or on tethers (and why anti-tethering laws can anger me). She doesn't even blink to a e-collar. 

I've had 5 people over here at one point in my yard watching how she escaped just to fix the issue. We'd fix one, and she'd find another. Pits are known for this issue. It's not that i'm irresponsible because anyone who knows me will tell you otherwise. This bitch tests every thing. She's very very smart and nothing stops her from what she wants. 

Yes for the most part, it's about irresponsibility. Then you have a very very small amount of people that it's not that they aren't trying hard, it's just their dog is too smart for their own good. Can't wait until this spring when I get my new fence and can let her outside just to play with me again. I don't mind being out there on leash, but have you ever tried playing fetch on lead? Not so much fun.

That's the issue with some "black and white" statements, they aren't so black and white. There are grey areas.


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## Red Fraggle (Nov 23, 2011)

melundie said:


> This particular case seems to be a great argument for crating your dogs if you ask me.



Had I known they'd even try to escape (they haven't had this issue at home, but it's a very different house in terms of window type and placement and there are no kids there to sneak past. They had been with me for a week and shown no signs of interest in escaping), I'd have asked Mom to bring their x-pen. She hasn't crated them since they were pups and while I think they should have been crated because they're like little sharks, escape was never a problem. After that happened, I just didn't leave the house without them. I disconnected the air conditioner and locked the window because it wasn't that hot anyways and we had no more appts in the city till Mom came back to get them. Then, I made sure I was the last one through the door to make sure the dogs were on the right side of it every time it was opened. So, yes, there are measures that can be taken to prevent a repeat offense, but we don't need to get all ragey when we see a dog on the loose for the first time (to our knowledge). Save the anger for people who clearly don't care (like my next door neighbours).


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> And you do realize that she also escapes the leash right? Knows just got to move so that 2 out of 3 leashes will unbuckle <snip>


Unbuckle? You mean collar, right? (May I recommend a martingale collar that tightens when they tug on it?) After the first time you know the dog will try to get away, then you have a collar and a harness ... or two collars ... or don't take your eyes of the dog ... and you train the dog. There are dogs that are much harder to train ... but all can be trained enough to be secure on a leash.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

> This particular case seems to be a great argument for crating your dogs if you ask me.


My dogs are crated, however my youngest dog can escape a crate. Nothing like leaving for ten minutes to run down the street to come home and find your dog on the roof. And yes, she was crated when I left...she got out of the crate, pushed a fan that was in the window out and got onto the roof. Does that make me an irresponsible owner? :/ There was also the time I left for five minutes to go to the dollar store and came home to find her waiting at the back door, yet again she was crated when I left the house.

There is also someone I know of who's dog managed to get a sliding glass door open while they were sleeping and escape that way, so yes it probably was more than an hour before they started looking for their dog because they were sleeping and the dog was safely in the house when they went to bed.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

hast said:


> Unbuckle? You mean collar, right? (May I recommend a martingale collar that tightens when they tug on it?) After the first time you know the dog will try to get away, then you have a collar and a harness ... or two collars ... or don't take your eyes of the dog ... and you train the dog. There are dogs that are much harder to train ... but all can be trained enough to be secure on a leash.


Nope I'm pretty sure she means leashes. With most leashes if the dog shakes just the right way the leash will pop open, I had it happen with a long line I was using...dog just happened to move the right way and the snap opened.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

melundie said:


> Or more paranoid. Like I mentioned in my OP, my parents had a dog who was an escape artist. He was a Golden Retriever. Now we have Border Collies. BCs won't have any trouble jumping a stockade fence. Let alone a six-footer.
> 
> And yes, if you let your dog out and don't check on him periodically, it is irresponsible of you, even if it's technically an accident that he got out.
> 
> I'm not trying to boast or pretend like I'm a better person that you. I feel like checking every 5-10 minutes is completely reasonable. The point is, if you're checking every 10 minutes, you'll realize before an hour and 1/2 that your dog is missing. Even if you don't know exactly where he went. In my case, our development is small. And pretty secluded from anywhere else. The dog was barking in the square out front of my house for over an hour. And his bark was loud enough to wake me up. I sleep like a ROCK. You'd think he'd be easy to find.


I also think you should "know your dog" my Izze is test worthy, if I'm in the house she won't leave & I know that. Even tho she "knows" she can she just doesn't. Jo is another story ... She stays in a pen when I'm not outside.

As far as sputering I support it with a CAPITOL "s" there is no reason (UNLESS you are : showing, an ethical breeder or the dog has an existing medical condition etc) there should be no fear of putting a dog under.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> dog just happened to move the right way and the snap opened.


This happens to the momentum handle on Strauss's harness when we shakes. The snap pops right open.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

upendi'smommy said:


> Nope I'm pretty sure she means leashes. With most leashes if the dog shakes just the right way the leash will pop open, I had it happen with a long line I was using...dog just happened to move the right way and the snap opened.


Yup, She found out that if she sat down and itched in the right place followed by a shake, the latch on the leash would come off and she could be free. 

Irresponsible = Someone who's dog gets loose and they don't care. 
- Finds dog loose, does nothing about it, dog keeps getting loose.
-Dog ends up in pound so many times, owner bails it out, does nothing to fix the issue OR Doesn't even bother to get the dog back
-Dog gets loose, owner never realizes it


Responsible = Someone who sees an issue and never stops trying to fix issue
-Dog gets loose, Owner goes right out fixes the issue by fixing fence
-Dog gets loose, Owner fixes the new issue. Places 7ft fence in the area that dog is getting loose.
- Dog gets loose, Owner cusses out said dog, knows that she can't fix the issue until spring (Needs new back gate) and tethers dog
-Dog gets loose, Owner cusses out dog, takes care of tether that was chewed threw, Starts taking dog out on leash
-Dog gets loose, Owner tosses leash out gets new one
-Dog gets loose, Owner replaces another leash
-Dog gets loose, Owner cries, cusses, and thinks about strangling dog as she puts another door latch on back door so puppy can not open door.

Yup, I'm sure irresponsible! Oh any by cussing I mean sweetly cussing out my dog in a happy-go-lucky tone like she's the best dog in the world.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

You think YOU'RE irresponsible? I replaced my whole d#[email protected] fence! Talk about selfish!


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

hast said:


> So you'd pay half of an 'emergency spay' if your dog came into another persons yard and impregnated their breeding bitch? How gracious of you
> As I informed someone who's intact dog was in my yard because my bitch was in heat ... It's *MY* yard I should be able to keep my dog on my property without having loose intact dogs come visit ... and I informed that if that dog came into my yard one more time (he was a frequent guest) I would personally take him and drop him off at ASPCA and hope they had time to neuter him before he got picked up again.


And just to touch on this, I would hope someone with a quality breeding bitch would be *responsible* enough to properly supervise their bitch when she was in heat, which would negate the possibility for an oops litter. I did have three, now two intact bitches (one has been spayed another is being spayed soon) and have never had an oops litter. How? I supervise my intact bitches anytime I even think they might be coming into heat.

Of course it is your property and you have a right to keep your dog there, but you also have a responsibility as the owner of an intact bitch to properly supervise her and in my honest opinion that means not leaving her outside unattended whether it's your property and you have the right to or not. Not properly supervising a bitch in heat is honestly willfully irresponsible to me.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

There's always the wilfully ignorant. 
Somebody a couple of miles away NEVER put their dog behind a fence on a tether or any kind of restraint. I had to find them to call them and tell them that he was camped out on our front porch for 5 days because Caeda was in heat. A sweet goofy lab. We let Caeda out one day (supervised) on her tether to play outside a little, turned around to close the door....BAM. Apparently not supervised enough for about 20 seconds. We had thought he was gone, having been picked up by his owners, warned of his "urge" for our girl. He came back with a really thin rope attached to his collar that he had apparently snapped. He has come back at least once a week since then and its been around two months. Worst is that he had gouges on his legs the first time we saw him, presumably from getting over here, the second time we saw him they hadn't been treated (though they've healed up now). They said they had been "meaning to" fix him and would asap. They still haven't. Not even an offer for going halfsies on the spay. We had been planning on waiting until she was for sure full grown before the spay, but that idea got trashed. I just keep hoping that sweet goofy guy doesn't make his way to the highway and get hit. Even worse, the landlord has been threatening to shoot him!

On the escape side of things...Caeda managed to open our sliding glass door (our landlord never had a lock for it) while she was in heat.I never thought she could do that! A HEAVY door....I had issues with it when my neck was bad. Luckily we have a lock on it now (junky but better than nothing) and she hasn't shown any interest in escape since her heat ended.


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## DustyCrockett (Sep 24, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> Yup, She found out that if she sat down and itched in the right place followed by a shake, the latch on the leash would come off and she could be free.
> 
> Irresponsible = Someone who's dog gets loose and they don't care.
> - Finds dog loose, does nothing about it, dog keeps getting loose.
> ...


If you feel the need to defend yourself to this crowd, the numbers alone are a pretty big hurdle: Dog 7, Human 2 (I think you cited 2 thwarted attempts earlier?).

But hey you convinced me, for what it's worth. I coulda told ya, had you asked, that if it's not a steel cable or a chain, it's going to get chewed through. It's just a matter of time. My guy has a sharp pair of scissors hidden in his mouth. He's set the other dog free several times (they like to hang out in the front with me while I do yard work). Lucky for me the other dog is a homebody, who barks at me soon as his rope's been cut.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> Yup, She found out that if she sat down and itched in the right place followed by a shake, the latch on the leash would come off and she could be free.
> 
> Irresponsible = Someone who's dog gets loose and they don't care.
> - Finds dog loose, does nothing about it, dog keeps getting loose.
> ...


If my dog did all that, the cussing wouldn't be "sweet" golly! :/. Luckily I only have a "wonderer" :/.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

upendi'smommy said:


> Nope I'm pretty sure she means leashes. With most leashes if the dog shakes just the right way the leash will pop open,<snip>


As a responsible Rottweiler owner I made sure that could not happen before my dog was trained to the point that I could trust her recall. This ... or double leashes would fix the problem.











upendi'smommy said:


> And just to touch on this, I would hope someone with a quality breeding bitch would be *responsible* enough to properly supervise their bitch when she was in heat,<snip>


Was this directed at me? My dog was never (NEVER!) left alone outside until she was over 3 years old and trained to the point that she never tries to walk through a gate into a pasture or out off the property whether the gate is open or not, or whether she's in heat or not. Never, and nowadays I might go in a few minutes before she's ready to come in and leave her for 5 minutes, no more. She has never been outside while in heat without me. Ever. She has 5 acres fenced ... part of it is 4 board fences to horse pastures and she could crawl under at some places if she had chosen to, but I have trained her to the point where she chooses not to do that. 
I have, however, had to check the 5 acres for loose dogs before I let her out when she's been in heat ... and I have done so. And crated intact dogs that hangs out on our property and called the owners to come and pick their dogs up again ... and threatened to leave their dogs with ASPCA whether they have tags or not next time.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> <snip>
> On the escape side of things...Caeda managed to open our sliding glass door (our landlord never had a lock for it) while she was in heat.I never thought she could do that! A HEAVY door....I had issues with it when my neck was bad. Luckily we have a lock on it now (junky but better than nothing) and she hasn't shown any interest in escape since her heat ended.


Many years ago my CAT opened my neighbors glass sliding door to get INSIDE to eat the neighbors cat food. :redface: I gave the neighbor a new, better, lock to the door. A lock so she could have the door open an inch if she wanted and an adult could even open it from the outside, not a child ... or a cat.:wink:


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

They make leashes with scissor or bull snaps. Can't be opened unless by you, and also strong enough to hold a 1200lb horse. Elite k9 or ray Allen carries lots of supplies that would work for a dog described above.

There are times, twice a week actually, that I work and by dogs have to be outside unsupervised. I work in a different county for 24 hour shifts, and have the dogs in a fenced yard. Two intact bitches. Never had an oops litter. I added an electric wire top and bottom, as mals are climbers and chew through chain link. Stops escape problems, and wandering males. The box was around $100, and the wire and insulators maybe $50. That's more than enough for an acre.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

DustyCrockett said:


> If you feel the need to defend yourself to this crowd, the numbers alone are a pretty big hurdle: Dog 7, Human 2 (I think you cited 2 thwarted attempts earlier?).
> 
> But hey you convinced me, for what it's worth. I coulda told ya, had you asked, that if it's not a steel cable or a chain, it's going to get chewed through. It's just a matter of time. My guy has a sharp pair of scissors hidden in his mouth. He's set the other dog free several times (they like to hang out in the front with me while I do yard work). Lucky for me the other dog is a homebody, who barks at me soon as his rope's been cut.


As someone who has met Darkmoon and her dogs (the escape artist came to her after showing up in the middle of a busy road by my salon. No owner was found and she stepped in right away.) she's not defending herself but explaining to perfect people with perfect dogs how things go down in the real world sometimes, no matter how vigilant of an owner you are.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Some dogs are just amazing problem solvers that are to smart for their own good. I had a Beagle like this when I was a kid, who no matter what we did, ALWAYS found a way to get loose. So long as the owner of these kinds of dogs acknowledge the problem and do what they can to try and fix it, they are still responsible. 

In a perfect world, all dogs would be content to just laze about in the yard without a care as to what's going on in the world beyond their home. But this isn't a perfect world.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

RCloud said:


> Some dogs are just amazing problem solvers that are to smart for their own good. I had a Beagle like this when I was a kid, who no matter what we did, ALWAYS found a way to get loose. So long as the owner of these kinds of dogs acknowledge the problem and do what they can to try and fix it, they are still responsible.
> 
> In a perfect world, all dogs would be content to just laze about in the yard without a care as to what's going on in the world beyond their home. But this isn't a perfect world.


So ... someone with an intact dog can just blow off that the dog roams with claiming it to be an "escape artist"? There are ways to solve the problem ... but all we hear here are excuses.

My dog doesn't like to "laze about" in the yard ... I've spent many, many hours training her to stay put. I have a horse, a jumper, who was an "escape artist", he too stays put now ... and in case he would jump the pasture fence (again, and this time despite the electric on the top rail) I now have double fencing. My animals are my responsibility ... 

The only reason I train obedience with my dog is that she was absolutely wild and needed a job to do. Little did I realize that giving her a job would require so many hours work from me ... and give such an awesome reward in our relationship. These days she stays put because she wouldn't dream of leaving me, she'd rather be within sigh from me than anywhere else in the world ... even when she was in heat.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

hast said:


> So ... someone with an intact dog can just blow off that the dog roams with claiming it to be an "escape artist"?


Yea no one has actually said that.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

hast said:


> Unbuckle? You mean collar, right? (May I recommend a martingale collar that tightens when they tug on it?) After the first time you know the dog will try to get away, then you have a collar and a harness ... or two collars ... or don't take your eyes of the dog ... and you train the dog. There are dogs that are much harder to train ... but all can be trained enough to be secure on a leash.


I happen to know that Cindy (Darkmoon) has tried Martingales and I think harnesses with Peanut, she slips them. The fact is, if a dog is determined (and smart enough) they can escape. Hell, my not so determined Dobe can escape a martingale (as well as a Head Halter or Muzzle) pretty Easily. 

Darkmoon, hopefully the Coyote rollers work so she can be out in the yard again.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

hast said:


> So ... someone with an intact dog can just blow off that the dog roams with claiming it to be an "escape artist"? There are ways to solve the problem ... but all we hear here are excuses.
> 
> .


I think she has described all the things she's done to contain the dog, obviously the behavior is so self rewarding that other things don't compare and you've never had a dog that was a driven to escape. Hopefully the Coyote rollers and higher fence will work. But I suppose Cindy should just shut the dog in a cage 24/7 according to your standards. 


Frankly, if you haven't walked a mile in her shoes you shouldn't be judging her dog ownership.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

hast said:


> So ... someone with an intact dog can just blow off that the dog roams with claiming it to be an "escape artist"?


Yes, that's exactly what I said. /sarcasm

It's called "the real world", where not everyone is as lucky to have a dog who is willing to focus on their owners and the rules at hand. Some understand them but are to bullheaded to care, and nothing short of borderline cruelty will stop them. It's not making up excuses, it's not being lazy, it's not being irresponsible, it's fact. Sorry.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

cshellenberger said:


> I think she has described all the things she's done to contain the dog, obviously the behavior is so self rewarding that other things don't compare and you've never had a dog that was a driven to escape. Hopefully the Coyote rollers and higher fence will work. But I suppose Cindy should just shut the dog in a cage 24/7 according to your standards.
> 
> 
> Frankly, if you haven't walked a mile in her shoes you shouldn't be judging her dog ownership.


Yea it's a pretty high horse to fall off of. Hope nobody gets hurt.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

juliemule said:


> There are times, twice a week actually, that I work and by dogs have to be outside unsupervised. I work in a different county for 24 hour shifts, and have the dogs in a fenced yard. Two intact bitches. Never had an oops litter. I added an electric wire top and bottom, as mals are climbers and chew through chain link. Stops escape problems, and wandering males. The box was around $100, and the wire and insulators maybe $50. That's more than enough for an acre.


 
That's fine of you're in a rural area where you can electrify a fence, I'm pretty sure Darkmoon lives in an urban area (since htere are anti tethering laws) and wouldn't be allowed to do anything like this.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Back last spring, I was visiting the dogs' breeder and I left Kimma and Pentti in a secured, fenced in area. Both dogs had never so much as tried to escape the fence at home, and since they had been in that area plenty of times before, I didn't see anything wrong with letting them out to play while we went to another part of his property. Well, turned out that Kimma REALLY wanted to get out (I think she was trying to come find me... She has weird SA symptoms) and she escaped an area that so many of the breeder's dogs had been in with NO issues (including young, small pups). We have no idea how, but we think she was able to squeeze out of a small sort of opening in the fence where the gate closed. We seriously were in awe - she had to have struggled to get out. She was maybe gone for 20 minutes (we HAD heard Pentti barking, but thought nothing of it), and luckily game right back once I called her name. But STILL. No dogs had gotten out of that area for years and years, and magically my Kimma was the one to do it LOL. Glad some people have dogs that they don't have to worry about (be it by training or just by the dog's nature), but we can't all be that lucky.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

> My dogs are not neutered, and yes, Ticket has gotten out the odd time, but it's usually five minutes and I'm out the door looking for him and if he did find a date I would certainly pay half of an emergency spay.


IMHO ... before I leave this subject for good ... This was the comment I commented on. She has an unaltered dog that gets out, by her own accords, and if her dog impregnates another dog she'd pay half  of an emergency spay. She further states that her dog is an "escape artist" and impossible to keep tabs on at all times.
I suggested several ways to keep the dog at home ... if non of those works, maybe neutering is in order to keep him home. I would not accept that my dog got out frequently ... nor that she had a frequent "visitor" when she was in heat. 
(Yes ... when my dog is in heat she's always with me and I make sure to go over the 5 acres she has to run on before I let her leave my side because there are so many irresponsible owners of unaltered males in the neighborhood.)


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

hast said:


> IMHO ... before I leave this subject for good ... This was the comment I commented on. She has an unaltered dog that gets out, by her own accords, and if her dog impregnates another dog she'd pay half  of an emergency spay. She further states that her dog is an "escape artist" and impossible to keep tabs on at all times.
> I suggested several ways to keep the dog at home ... if non of those works, maybe neutering is in order to keep him home. I would not accept that my dog got out frequently ... nor that she had a frequent "visitor" when she was in heat.
> (Yes ... when my dog is in heat she's always with me and I make sure to go over the 5 acres she has to run on before I let her leave my side because there are so many irresponsible owners of unaltered males in the neighborhood.)


 
Darkmoons escape artist is the FEMALE, not the male. I believe that dog is in fact SPAYED (correct me if I'm wrong Darkmoon or TWAB).


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I will again personally attest that, even as a wee wee baby, Peanut was full of it.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Finkie_Mom said:


> Back last spring, I was visiting the dogs' breeder and I left Kimma and Pentti in a secured, fenced in area. Both dogs had never so much as tried to escape the fence at home, and since they had been in that area plenty of times before, I didn't see anything wrong with letting them out to play while we went to another part of his property. Well, turned out that Kimma REALLY wanted to get out (I think she was trying to come find me... She has weird SA symptoms) and she escaped an area that so many of the breeder's dogs had been in with NO issues (including young, small pups). We have no idea how, but we think she was able to squeeze out of a small sort of opening in the fence where the gate closed. We seriously were in awe - she had to have struggled to get out. She was maybe gone for 20 minutes (we HAD heard Pentti barking, but thought nothing of it), and luckily game right back once I called her name. But STILL. No dogs had gotten out of that area for years and years, and magically my Kimma was the one to do it LOL. Glad some people have dogs that they don't have to worry about (be it by training or just by the dog's nature), but we can't all be that lucky.


That's a completely different thing ... your dog hasn't gotten out of the same place time after time ... As I said in the beginning; Once is an accident, twice ... well ... I'd guess I'd still go with accident ... more than that it's not, then it's poor dog husbandry, which in Sweden (where I'm from) would lead to the dog be taken from you. Your dog your responsibility and you better keep tabs on it or the ASPCA will pick it up to make sure it's not hit by a car or gets lost somewhere.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Yea it's a pretty high horse to fall off of. Hope nobody gets hurt.


Mine is 17.2 hh ... I stick pretty good. :becky:

Where I'm from, Sweden, the ASPCA will take your dog from you if they find it, or get reports of it, roaming the streets more than two or three times (I don't remember which) ... but then, there are no stray dogs and people make sure to keep their dogs where they're supposed to be. I'm on my way out (on 8 hrs time difference from EST right now) and will now leave this subject.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not sure what they do in Sweden has to do with what we do in... not Sweden.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

hast said:


> (Yes ... when my dog is in heat she's always with me and I make sure to go over the 5 acres she has to run on before *I let her leave my side *because there are so many irresponsible owners of unaltered males in the neighborhood.)


Whoa whoa whoa! You NEVER leave a female in heat alone by herself EVER, no matter how many times you've "checked" to make sure there are no other dogs around! That makes YOU just as irresponsible as them!


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Yes, I understand where you are coming from, Hast, but I think the point some of us are trying to make is that it's not as though DM and some others are just LETTING their dogs go free. She has tried NUMEROUS ways of getting her to stay in her yard and none of them have worked. For example, in the situation I described above, we just put the dogs back in crates inside the house for the remainder of the visit. But if we had put something over the "hole" and left them out, Kimma may have attempted and succeeded in another escape. So then we might try something else, such as putting her in another pen, or something similar. Who knows... She may try to jump that fence. And so on and so forth. How many attempts at resolving the issue get to exist before it becomes "irresponsible?" There is just too much gray area. I get which post you were referring to with your first comments, but DM is trying to give others reading her own experience with a very smart and willful dog that just will not quit. She HAS tried so many things, and will continue to keep trying.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

RCloud said:


> Whoa whoa whoa! You NEVER leave a female in heat alone by herself EVER, no matter how many times you've "checked" to make sure there are no other dogs around! That makes YOU just as irresponsible as them!


 
DAMN straight, before I had my girl spayed (at 3 years) if she was in heat she was ON A LEASH, in the yard (which was very small). I took NO chances with her!



hast said:


> That's a completely different thing ... your dog hasn't gotten out of the same place time after time ... As I said in the beginning; Once is an accident, twice ... well ... I'd guess I'd still go with accident ... more than that it's not, then it's poor dog husbandry, which in Sweden (where I'm from) would lead to the dog be taken from you. Your dog your responsibility and you better keep tabs on it or the ASPCA will pick it up to make sure it's not hit by a car or gets lost somewhere.


 
Thank goodness this isn't Sweden, here we have the freedom to decide what we'll do with our dogs and don't have the Government interfering with dog ownership, medical and training decisions.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

RCloud said:


> Whoa whoa whoa! You NEVER leave a female in heat alone by herself EVER, no matter how many times you've "checked" to make sure there are no other dogs around! That makes YOU just as irresponsible as them!


I let her leave *my side*, like in heal position, not get out of my sight.:wink:



sassafras said:


> I'm not sure what they do in Sweden has to do with what we do in... not Sweden.


No, we're not in Sweden, but why do you think they can manage the dogs there? (where it also is illegal to crate them unless at show grounds, or use e-collars, or prong collars)



Finkie_Mom said:


> <snip>For example, in the situation I described above, we just put the dogs back in crates inside the house for the remainder of the visit. But if we had put something over the "hole" and left them out, Kimma may have attempted and succeeded in another escape. So then we might try something else, such as putting her in another pen, or something similar. Who knows... She may try to jump that fence.<snip>.


but the thing is that you didn't. You acted responsible and made sure your dog was safe... and now I REALLY have to go ... or my ride will leave me behind. LOL


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

hast said:


> if her dog impregnates another dog she'd pay half  of an emergency spay.


Sounds about right to me. I'm getting REAL sick and tired of the male dogs always being the ones to blame in these situations. No, absolutely not should an intact male be roaming the neighborhood, but it takes two to tango, and if a female becomes pregnant, a lot of times it's because the OWNER of the female in heat wasn't doing their job by *watching their female dog*. They left it alone outside, or let it off the leash to run loose in an unfenced area, or something stupid. I've seen dogs mate through tiny holes in stockade fences!


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

hast said:


> I let her leave *my side*, like in heal position, not get out of my sight.:wink:


And that makes a difference how? You still let her off leash. YOU DON'T DO THIS with a female in heat, no matter how well trained she is!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

RCloud said:


> Sounds about right to me. I'm getting REAL sick and tired of the male dogs always being the ones to blame in these situations. No, absolutely not should an intact male be roaming the neighborhood, but it takes two to tango, and if a female becomes pregnant, a lot of times it's because the OWNER of the female in heat wasn't doing their job by *watching their female dog*. They left it alone outside, or let it off the leash to run loose in an unfenced area, or something stupid. I've seen dogs mate through tiny holes in stockade fences!


I know of a mating tat took place with both dogs in separate crates (placed next to each other at a show).


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> I know of a mating tat took place with both dogs in separate crates (placed next to each other at a show).


I believe it! It can happen so easily and so fast. If dogs want to mate, they are going to do everything in their power to do so.


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

Ummm....I SERIOUSLY doubt that Darkmoon has EVER let her FEMALE dog outside unattended while in heat and anyone that says so...I will laugh in their face... She is one of the MOST responsible dog owners I know. Obviously, you do not know her or how she works her dogs. If she says she's tried everything...she's tried freaking everything...and she IS trying to keep her dog contained...like actually ACTIVELY trying to keep her dog contained. 

No, she doesn't have a perfect dog...neither do I. And no matter what you think, neither do you. Dogs are dogs are dogs....get complacent and see what happens.

I have a 4 1/2 year old Mastiff that is intact. He will never be neutered unless there is a medical reason to do so. He's never sired a litter and he never will because he is supervised at all times while outside. HOWEVER...my intact dog is content to stay in the yard. Darkmoon, however, has a dog that is extremely driven. To call her irresponsible is ludicrous to me. You don't know her or anything about her dogs.


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Mdawn said:


> <snip>
> No, she doesn't have a perfect dog...neither do I. And no matter what you think, neither do you. Dogs are dogs are dogs....get complacent and see what happens.
> <snip>


My dog's good, but as I'm very aware far from perfect and therefore I have spent hours upon hours on training my dog ... and make sure I don't get complacent. 

Look, I realize that you all are friends, but as a teacher I start to have a strange deja vu feeling. It's like when a whole class rallies around someone who repeatedly have forgotten the text book ... or {{{shudder}}} a homework assignment.:wink: You know where I stand and I know where you stand. I seriously doubt either of us will change each other's minds in this issue ... so why not let it rest?


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Welded wire kennels, with a top, concrete floor. Door latches at bottom and top, the dog cannot open the latch. Escape proof. I believe at one of the kennels in Memphis the man even had another door in case the dog slipped through the first door. Just in case.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Darkmoons escape artist is the FEMALE, not the male. I believe that dog is in fact SPAYED (correct me if I'm wrong Darkmoon or TWAB).


No Peanut is still intact. She's going in in April/May for her spay just before her next heat because while her last heat wasn't too bad, it was still a pain to deal with for a dog that will never be bred.



hast said:


> So ... someone with an intact dog can just blow off that the dog roams with claiming it to be an "escape artist"? There are ways to solve the problem ... but all we hear here are excuses.





hast said:


> IMHO ... before I leave this subject for good ... This was the comment I commented on. She has an unaltered dog that gets out, by her own accords, and if her dog impregnates another dog she'd pay half  of an emergency spay. She further states that her dog is an "escape artist" and impossible to keep tabs on at all times.


You very much amuse me. First Peanut is a FEMALE. Also Peanut's first heat ended 2 days after Christmas in Dec. and how do I know this? Because I had been checking her every day for signs of coming into heat because of her age. She started a day after Thanksgiving. Being the "irresponsible" owner I am, I obviously kept her under lock and key, and easily without even one accident kept her from escaping and getting pregnant because I had finally fixed the issues of her escaping at that point and took her outside or if she was outside, she was out with my male who doesn't like other dogs near the yard and I stood at the back door with a keen eye on her. Actually while she was in heat she was more interested in Nubs then in escaping. 

Nubs has always been neutered.




ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I will again personally attest that, even as a wee wee baby, Peanut was full of it.


Full of it? Oh that's being nice. She has a ton of spirit that's for sure.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Yep. You'd better believe that we are friends (though you can't make real friends over the internet, I've been told ). And I for one would never befriend someone that is irresponsible with their dogs. Period. 

Though I do think we have a bit of a misunderstanding over part of this (I believe you were most upset at the poster that let their intact dog get loose), as DM has stated that she has never let Peanut out of her sight while she was in heat (similar to what you claim to do with your girl).


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

upendi'smommy said:


> And just to touch on this, I would hope someone with a quality breeding bitch would be *responsible* enough to properly supervise their bitch when she was in heat, which would negate the possibility for an oops litter. I did have three, now two intact bitches (one has been spayed another is being spayed soon) and have never had an oops litter. How? I supervise my intact bitches anytime I even think they might be coming into heat.
> 
> Of course it is your property and you have a right to keep your dog there, but you also have a responsibility as the owner of an intact bitch to properly supervise her and in my honest opinion that means not leaving her outside unattended whether it's your property and you have the right to or not. Not properly supervising a bitch in heat is honestly willfully irresponsible to me.


My thoughts exactly! Storee when out is in a dog run with six foot high fences on two sides, the third side is about five feet. The gate is also about five feet, with a kicker on the bottom, and a clip on the latch so she can't bounce it open (she would jump and hit the top of the gate till it worked open). On that side is the yard, and there's a good fence apart from one section that's getting replaced soon, it's 3 feet there. But usually if she's in season and out I'm doing dishes and right at the window where I could see, and she's not the quiet type of dog (Storee is her name after all) so she barks at everything. 

I have friends who have intact dogs of both sexes on acreages, they all have dog runs that are secure and don't let the dogs run on the whole property all the time, or when in season. The one friend for sure doesn't even walk her dogs on her land if one is in season, she'll drive them to the end of the property and let them go for a run then drive them home. 

If a dog did jump the fence and get in, I wouldn't expect that the owner of the dog would be responsible enough to even apologize, let alone pay for anything. I said emergency spay because I've known people in the same situation who then go on to help raise the puppies and sell them... um... not going to do that, sorry. Too many unwanted dogs out there already. I did tell off a guy who brought his dog, in season, to the OFF leash park, Ticket was very interested and kept mounting her, and I apologized after the third time and he said 'well she is in heat'.... so I just ripped him a new one, kept Ticket on leash and left the park. Not sure if he was a total moron or not but O M G......

Though to be honest, I had one student who had his pup come into season, the vet said 'no walks for a week' and nothing else. I questioned him on that and yep, vet said one week from the first sign of blood, keep her inside the yard, then she'd be fine. So gave him proper instructions on how to handle things..... gotta wonder about some vets!


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

Your point here . . .



> You know where I stand and I know where you stand. I seriously doubt either of us will change each other's minds in this issue ... so why not let it rest?


Is a bit undercut by this point . . .



> It's like when a whole class rallies around someone who repeatedly have forgotten the text book


You can stand where you like and I don't care. But if you want people to respect *your* opinion, perhaps you shouldn't imply that people with differing opinions have "repeatedly forgotten the textbook"--and are therefore being irresponsible. Not quite the best way to encourage people to agree to disagree.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

hast said:


> IMHO ... before I leave this subject for good ... This was the comment I commented on. She has an unaltered dog that gets out, by her own accords, and if her dog impregnates another dog she'd pay half  of an emergency spay. She further states that her dog is an "escape artist" and impossible to keep tabs on at all times.
> I suggested several ways to keep the dog at home ... if non of those works, maybe neutering is in order to keep him home. I would not accept that my dog got out frequently ... nor that she had a frequent "visitor" when she was in heat.
> (Yes ... when my dog is in heat she's always with me and I make sure to go over the 5 acres she has to run on before I let her leave my side because there are so many irresponsible owners of unaltered males in the neighborhood.)



Ok.... sigh.

He gets out once in a blue moon. Not often, I think the last time was in the summer when there were guys here to clean the vehicles and they were morons who unclipped the gate and opened it, letting the dogs out, and I was out about 30 seconds later to get them back in. I don't walk them to the van on leash, we potty in the field behind us, so I guess that 'could' be running at large. It's usually more like he will go out the front door, pee on something and then come back when called. Most of the neighbors didn't realize we had dogs for the first year. I wouldn't say he gets out all the time and certainly isn't allowed to do so, we're not opening the front door and sending him off for a walk! 99% of the time I know exactly where he is, the only times I might not is if we're walking off leash and he's actually out of sight in the bushes, or if he's in the dog run and not inside where I can see him. Please don't assume he's running at large all day long, nowhere did I say that. He does, like any dog, have the odd time where he's loose and supervised, and the very, very, very, very odd time where he's escaped and been picked up shortly afterwards. 

As for the 'half the emergency spay', what would you have me do? Spay every irresponsible dog owner's dogs for them because they didn't bother to a) spay their dog and b) supervise their dog when in heat? I do have intact bitches here too, and wouldn't assume someone else should pay if I screwed up and they got bred by a strange dog. I certainly would NOT pay or help support them whelping and raising a litter of puppies when there's too many needing homes. 

I choose to have my girls intact, so I'm responsible for anything with them, regardless of other people. I wouldn't assume someone else would be forking out a dime if their dog got out and something happened.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

hast said:


> I let her leave *my side*, like in heal position, not get out of my sight.



LOL yea nothing could EVER happen with a dog in heat off leash on 5 acres. Ragging on someone for using the wrong kind of snap on their leash and then turning around and relying solely on training for a dog off leash on 5 acres... I'm sure that your dog is very well trained and commend you for putting in the work, but she is still a dog. No dog is 100% trained.




> No, we're not in Sweden, but why do you think they can manage the dogs there? (where it also is illegal to crate them unless at show grounds, or use e-collars, or prong collars)


Sweden is Sweden. Here is here. I am going to consider options that are available to me here as I see fit and not worry about what people somewhere else are doing, as they should not worry about what I am doing with my crate.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I know if I had a male dog in my yard that had bred one of my females, an emergency spay would not be in order. My dogs are expensive and not easy to replace. I wouldn't spay the female who is contained in my own yard, due to someone having an intact male that escaped and visited. Whether the owner offered to pay for half or not. In fact I would let them know their male could be picked up at the vet clinics recovering from his neuter!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

juliemule said:


> In fact I would let them know their male could be picked up at the vet clinics recovering from his neuter!


Yea that's illegal in most municipalities without the owner's consent.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> Yea that's illegal in most municipalities without the owner's consent.


There is also a leash law.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

juliemule said:


> There is also a leash law.


Yes.... and?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, you really can't cancel out one illegal activity by committing another. Laws don't work that way.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Not concerned on what would be legal, as here people actually shoot trespassing dogs, and not a thing is done. So I really wouldn't neuter someones house pet, if they would keep the dog confined. Mostly that's not the case here, people are too cheap, too lazy, or don't care enough about their dogs to bother. If it is a problem dog, I would have no qaulms about though. We don't have animal control, and no place to take strays.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

How would you feel if someone neutered one of your dogs without your consent? Personally, I'd be furious. You have no idea what the circumstances of the dog being unaltered OR being loose are, so who are you to make that decision? I'd be appalled at any vet who would neuter a dog without it's owner's consent as well. Absolutely no defense for such behavior in my opinion. Disgusting.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So you can shoot a loose dog but not neuter it? Weird. I need to look that up.

I'd rather have my dog come home neutered than not come home at all.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

sassafras said:


> How would you feel if someone neutered one of your dogs without your consent? Personally, I'd be furious. You have no idea what the circumstances of the dog being unaltered OR being loose are, so who are you to make that decision? I'd be appalled at any vet who would neuter a dog without it's owner's consent as well. Absolutely no defense for such behavior in my opinion. Disgusting.


I wish I could like this 1,000 times. Seriously. You can also bet, that if someone had one of MY dogs altered without MY consent there would be a lawsuit.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> So you can shoot a loose dog but not neuter it? Weird. I need to look that up.
> 
> I'd rather have my dog come home neutered than not come home at all.


Who said you can shoot a dog but not neuter it? 

I'd rather my dog not get loose in the first place. But if he did accidentally get loose and someone altered him without my consent, angry would not even begin to describe me. Just because there are worse alternatives, doesn't make a wrong thing less wrong.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> Who said you can shoot a dog but not neuter it?


In most rural areas, loose dogs are commonly shot on sight. This is legal; it is your right to do whatever you want to an animal that is on your rural property (in town there are usually bylaws that differ from the rurals and you would have to try to find the owners first). I assume neutering would also fall under that right, but maybe legally it is different. IDK.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

How angry do you think I would be having a loose lab//boxer//whatever-poo tied up with one of my females that is ina fenced yard, and the owner of the male expects me to have her spayed?
If you would be angry, keep the in neutered male up! 

I go through tons to make sure my females are secure, which is part of being a responsible intact dog owner. (Or any animal period, neutered or not)


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> In most rural areas, loose dogs are commonly shot on sight. This is legal; it is your right to do whatever you want to an animal that is on your rural property (in town there are usually bylaws that differ from the rurals and you would have to try to find the owners first). I assume neutering would also fall under that right, but maybe legally it is different. IDK.


Well, usually taking possession of someone's dog without their consent is considered theft of property. It would also be very risky legal/professional liability/licensure ground for a veterinarian to neuter an animal without the owner's consent, although I can't imagine anyone who would do such a thing in the first place would have a problem lying to the veterinarian about ownership.

In any case, it's irrelevant in a way. How I feel about people shooting dogs is different than how I feel about people neutering owned dogs that don't belong to them.


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

juliemule said:


> How angry do you think I would be having a loose lab//boxer//whatever-poo tied up with one of my females that is ina fenced yard, and the owner of the male expects me to have her spayed?
> If you would be angry, keep the in neutered male up!
> 
> I go through tons to make sure my females are secure, which is part of being a responsible intact dog owner. (Or any animal period, neutered or not)


If you are being responsible and properly supervising your bitches while in heat a male should not have the chance to tie with your bitch. So personally I would lay half the blame on your shoulders for not keeping a close eye on your bitch.

I own intact bitches, they are not out of my house without me right there on the other end of a leash or long line at any point when they are in heat. So yes, if a traveling salesman would happen to get one of them pregnant I would shoulder half the blame.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> How would you feel if someone neutered one of your dogs without your consent? Personally, I'd be furious. You have no idea what the circumstances of the dog being unaltered OR being loose are, so who are you to make that decision? I'd be appalled at any vet who would neuter a dog without it's owner's consent as well. Absolutely no defense for such behavior in my opinion. Disgusting.


 If my unaltered dog is running loose it should be neutered. What's disgusting is when people leave unaltered pets to roam loose, and not care about the consequences. This happens anytime I have a female in heat, and they males stay a week, no owner concerned where the dog is, and don't care how many unwanted dogs they produce. That is disgusting.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

juliemule said:


> How angry do you think I would be having a loose lab//boxer//whatever-poo tied up with one of my females that is ina fenced yard, and the owner of the male expects me to have her spayed?
> If you would be angry, keep the in neutered male up!
> 
> I go through tons to make sure my females are secure, which is part of being a responsible intact dog owner. (Or any animal period, neutered or not)


You'd be mad, and I would be if it were me. Doesn't make a wrong action right. We live in a society, and sometimes our fellow humans aren't perfect (including, I'm quite sure, you and I both), and knowing that I wouldn't leave my intact bitch unsupervised for even a second when she was in heat regardless of what I felt other people SHOULD do, the same way I wouldn't leave my car unlocked with $1000 sitting on the front seat. And I sure as heck wouldn't be making medical decisions for someone else's pet based on my assumptions of how responsible they are from a single incident of escape.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

juliemule said:


> If my unaltered dog is running loose it should be neutered. What's disgusting is when people leave unaltered pets to roam loose, and not care about the consequences. This happens anytime I have a female in heat, and they males stay a week, no owner concerned where the dog is, and don't care how many unwanted dogs they produce. That is disgusting.


Do you have no animal control services where you live? There are generally legal recourses that fall far short of dognapping and forced sterilization.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Theft of property? If the dog is inside a fenced yard that belongs to me, I believe that's trespassing not theft. 

As far as being responsible, what would you do? 

You have a bitch that's in, a dog that tears your fence down, no animal control, and no owner that will do anything? What do you, as a responsible owner do to prevent unwanted puppies?

My fence is electrified for this very reason, both sides!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

juliemule said:


> Theft of property? If the dog is inside a fenced yard that belongs to me, I believe that's trespassing not theft.


If an animal has an owner, and you take possession of it without their knowledge or consent, it is generally considered theft of property. A dog cannot "trespass", as it is not legally a person. It is the property of the owner.



> As far as being responsible, what would you do?
> 
> You have a bitch that's in, a dog that tears your fence down, no animal control, and no owner that will do anything? What do you, as a responsible owner do to prevent unwanted puppies?
> 
> My fence is electrified for this very reason, both sides!


Well it sounds like you answered your own question. I'd also be calling AC every single day to come pick up the offending animals - which is my legal recourse instead of street justice - and/or only take my female outside on a leash to go potty.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

What if the dog is on your property every day? Or stays the entire time your bitch is in heat? And there's no Animal Control, and if you call the owner (or the sheriff) they say "if he bothers you, just shoot him"? But you aren't willing to kill an animal. Then what?


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## upendi'smommy (Nov 12, 2008)

juliemule said:


> You have a bitch that's in, a dog that tears your fence down, no animal control, and no owner that will do anything? What do you, as a responsible owner do to prevent unwanted puppies?


Easy I wouldn't leave my bitch unattended, not even for a second. And yes I have this problem, I live in a rural area where people believe it's perfectly acceptable to let your dogs roam. I have heard this joke many many times "the dog knows the neighbors better than we do". And yet I have never had an oops litter, because I keep my bitches on this nifty invention called a leash while they are in heat.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I never said it was the right thing to do, and no as I stated before, a single incident, or even an occasional deal where I know its a cared for pet, or is tagged I wouldn't. I do feel accidents can happen! No there is not animal control for tshe county. If there is a dog problem, the sheriff's department says shoot it. Trust me, I was married to an officer, I know. This state has some of the worst animal laws enforced.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> What if the dog is on your property every day? Or stays the entire time your bitch is in heat? And there's no Animal Control, and if you call the owner (or the sheriff) they say "if he bothers you, just shoot him"? But you aren't willing to kill an animal. Then what?


Are we going to keep going further and further into Hypothetical Land until you invent a scenario in which I agree that making medical decisions for someone else's dog is ok? Because honestly, in that situation - I wouldn't live there. I'd move.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

That's an awful lot of the country you wouldn't live in then. Not everybody wants to live in a city. And frequently living in the rurals means no Animal Control.

I still think that killing the dog could also be construed as "making medical decisions" (unless you don't think euthanasia is a medical decision). I really don't see how that's any different than having him neutered.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> That's an awful lot of the country you wouldn't live in then. Not everybody wants to live in a city. And frequently living in the rurals means no Animal Control.


Ok, but you asked me what *I* would do, and I like living in my city where we have excellent animal control and I don't have problems with roaming dogs. Why on earth would I want to live somewhere with a culture so opposed to my own values?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Then don't. But to say that people who do choose to live in a rural area would be more wrong to send their neighbor's dog home missing a couple things (in the hopes that without hormonal urges he'd stay on his own property and maybe live a longer and happier life) than to kill the dog is just sort of ludicrous.

When you have to deal with things on your own there are only a few options. I'd choose the less lethal option.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Then don't. But to say that people who do choose to live in a rural area would be more wrong to send their neighbor's dog home missing a couple things (in the hopes that without hormonal urges he'd stay on his own property and maybe live a longer and happier life) than to kill the dog is just sort of ludicrous.


Well it's a good thing I never said that, then.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

juliemule said:


> How angry do you think I would be having a loose lab//boxer//whatever-poo tied up with one of my females that is ina fenced yard, and the owner of the male expects me to have her spayed?
> If you would be angry, keep the in neutered male up!
> 
> I go through tons to make sure my females are secure, which is part of being a responsible intact dog owner. (Or any animal period, neutered or not)


 
And if that loose male is someones show dog that accidentally got loose are you willing to compensate that owner for the loss? I've seen it happen. While I disagree with the whole 'spay your female is she's accidentally pregnant' as a blanket remedy I can tell you that if you did this to my dog you'd damn well have charges pressed on you for theft.

Of course as I said, while my female was intact she was far too closely supervised when outside the house (even in her own FENCED yard) to have an accidental pregnancy. If a female gets pregnant accidentally it's JUST as much the fault of the owner of the female as it is the owner of the male. I say that having been an owner of intact females and NEVER having an accidental litter.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If someone shoots your dog, can you press charges for theft? It would only be fair if you can have someone charged with theft for neutering your dog. I suppose you can file a civil suit--anyone can do that for any reason, don't know if you'd win--but legally I don't know how that works if your dog is on someone else's property.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

If they remove the dog and transport it to the vet it becomes theft. In most places I know of it's only legal to shoot a dog IF it's harassing livestock, in places where dogs are shot on site it's illegal (unless harrassing livestock) and a case of Law Enforcement not doing their job (which from the descriptions of your area is what's happening).


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> And if that loose male is someones show dog that accidentally got loose are you willing to compensate that owner for the loss? I've seen it happen. While I disagree with the whole 'spay your female is she's accidentally pregnant' as a blanket remedy I can tell you that if you did this to my dog you'd damn well have charges pressed on you for theft.
> 
> Of course as I said, while my female was intact she was far too closely supervised when outside the house (even in her own FENCED yard) to have an accidental pregnancy. If a female gets pregnant accidentally it's JUST as much the fault of the owner of the female as it is the owner of the male. I say that having been an owner of intact females and NEVER having an accidental litter.


I agree and have stated it is just as much MY responsibility fora having intact females. I have NEVER had an accidental litter either, as I take precautions to ensure that.

If there was someones show dog in my yard, of course I wouldn't have it neutered as I also stated that I do believe in accidents, and have enough experience to tell a pure bred from a yard dog. IF that dog continued to come back, after talking with the owners, something would be done.

I would have every right to take legal action as well, against the owner of a wandering male, that impregnated one of my bitches, causes harm, vet bills, loss of use, and expense of puppies. So that goes both ways.

An accident is just that. Recurrent accidents are not, as there are ways you can prevent your dogs from escaping more than a few times, just as I have to keep my dogs contained.

Try dealing with four or five males scratching up your door, you can't take the dog anywhere outdoors even leashed, unless its in an electrified fence. The owners don't care, no animal control, and are told to shoot problem dogs, which I wont do.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't know much about the laws regarding this, but I'd imagine that shooting a dog while it's on your property is pretty different from actually taking the dog to another location (the vet) and having it neutered. Here's some stuff about when it's legally permissible to shoot someone else's dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm pretty sure it's actually legal here to shoot a loose dog on sight, because if you call the sheriff to report a loose dog he'll tell you to shoot it, or, if you insist you won't do it, will come out and shoot it himself (they do not impound animals). Can't imagine the sheriff's office would give out illegal info, though I don't really know for sure. I really should look into that. I know someone who contacted the State's Attorney when her neighbor shot her dog and he said it was legal, though.

So it's the transporting that's illegal? Providing medical care? What if the dog was injured and you took it to the vet? Hmm, all sorts of legalities I really should look into.


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

Wow, this whole discussion is like a microcosm/metaphore for American society at large! We could extrapolate to include abortion and birth control for humans. Accidental pregnancy is often seen as the female's fault/responsibility...just because she is the one left "holding the bag" if it happens. The whole thing is a bit misogynistic, like some human policies and attitudes..."lock up your bitch in the house because my intact male might escape" = "girls/women should dress in mu mus and never go out, boys/men can't help themselves". 

I don't keep intact animals, because I have no need to, I'm not breeding and I don't want to deal with the trouble. My two female dogs, both spayed, never go out unattended...one is a runner/escape artist and one is aggressive, that's just the way it is. I did have to spay my younger one earlier than I might have liked, before her first heat, because a neighbor has an intact male that escapes from his fenced yard, I couldn't risk it...what if she got around a kid and out the door? The male is always sitting outside my backdoor anyway, because he likes my young female, even spayed. 

Non-issue for me, personally, because my pets are all neutered and I supervise them. *I* would not put a bitch in heat outside in a fenced yard, because I wouldn't put any dog outside unsupervised in a fenced yard, but that doesn't mean it's fair that no one can, just in case a loose intact male is running wild and jumping fences. If the bitch was loose too, I'd say "too bad, so sad", but, given one dog secured and one not, it's the owner of the loose dog's fault.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

juliemule said:


> I would have every right to take legal action as well, against the owner of a wandering male, that impregnated one of my bitches, causes harm, vet bills, loss of use, and expense of puppies. So that goes both ways.


Yes, you do, of course if a dog is repeatedly stray and no action (or very little) is taken to contain the dog I'd try to get Law enforcement or AC to intervene. That is not the case with Darkmoon, she has, in fact been taking measures since the female dog she took in six months ago came into her life. This dog had already been conditioned to run as she pleased by the prior owners. Showed up at TWAB's place of work (a salon) and the prior owners decided she wasn't worth the effort to contain anymore and didn't wish to pay any further fines for a dog at large. DM took possesion of said dog and is TRYING to keep her contained and has in fact done so for more than a month with no escapes. This is a dog that requires two or three leashes to be safely walked as she's a proven escape artist. DM is trying to provide a good quality of life for the dog without caging her.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> If they remove the dog and transport it to the vet it becomes theft. In most places I know of it's only legal to shoot a dog IF it's harassing livestock, in places where dogs are shot on site it's illegal (unless harrassing livestock) and a case of Law Enforcement not doing their job (which from the descriptions of your area is what's happening).



So taking the dog to a shelter, if they would take one is theft as well?

No, law enforcement could care less about dogs here. I called the sheriff's department when three of my dogs were poisoned. I was told that's not their place to do anything about it. I wanted them to be sure it was on record. After more than sixty dogs died within two days, they finally decided they take reports.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

juliemule said:


> So taking the dog to a shelter, if they would take one is theft as well?


Transporting to a shelter, no, transporting to have a medical procedure done on a dog that isn't yours, yes.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Canaqua said:


> *I* would not put a bitch in heat outside in a fenced yard, because I wouldn't put any dog outside unsupervised in a fenced yard, but that doesn't mean it's fair that no one can, just in case a loose intact male is running wild and jumping fences. If the bitch was loose too, I'd say "too bad, so sad", but, given one dog secured and one not, it's the owner of the loose dog's fault.


It doesn't really matter whose fault it was (unless you're planning to sue over the unintended pregnancy, I suppose). The owner of the female is still going to be the one responsible for the e-spay or the whelping or whatever else. Has anyone on this thread said that it's entirely the owner of the bitch's fault if an unaltered loose male gets into her yard and impregnates her? I don't think so. Owners of unaltered males definitely shouldn't be letting them run at large. Owners of unaltered females should keep them in sight and safe at all times when they're outside while in heat. Is it fair that an owner can't expect her bitch to be safe in her own yard? Of course not. But it's an annoyance they have to deal with.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

I let all my dog wander around the neighborhood intact. How else would I make back their adoption fees if I couldn't sell puppies?


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Yes, you do, of course if a dog is repeatedly stray and no action (or very little) is taken to contain the dog I'd try to get Law enforcement or AC to intervene. That is not the case with Darkmoon, she has, in fact been taking measures since the female dog she took in six months ago came into her life. This dog had already been conditioned to run as she pleased by the prior owners. Showed up at TWAB's place of work (a salon) and the prior owners decided she wasn't worth the effort to contain anymore and didn't wish to pay any further fines for a dog at large. DM took possesion of said dog and is TRYING to keep her contained and has in fact done so for more than a month with no escapes. This is a dog that requires two or three leashes to be safely walked as she's a proven escape artist. DM is trying to
> provide a good quality of life for the dog without caging her.


I am not saying darkmoon is not trying, and I would much rather see someone attempting to keep a dog than the dog being destroyed. I don't know her, and really try not to judge without knowing first hand..

The dogs that are around here, I do know what goes on, and its sad to see them run over or fighting over the girls. Again no animal control fot our county, and the SO does nothing for stray dogs.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Canaqua said:


> Wow, this whole discussion is like a microcosm/metaphore for American society at large! We could extrapolate to include abortion and birth control for humans. Accidental pregnancy is often seen as the female's fault/responsibility...just because she is the one left "holding the bag" if it happens. The whole thing is a bit misogynistic, like some human policies and attitudes..."lock up your bitch in the house because my intact male might escape" = "girls/women should dress in mu mus and never go out, boys/men can't help themselves".



Actually from what I've seen of current American society the guy is usually at fault and has little to say about any potential offspring (saying that as a person who's pro-choice). However humans have a higher thought process, dogs are far more instinct driven than we are.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

katielou said:


> I let all my dog wander around the neighborhood intact. How else would I make back their adoption fees if I couldn't sell puppies?


ROFL, thankfully I know you're being sarcastic!


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> It doesn't really matter whose fault it was (unless you're planning to sue over the unintended pregnancy, I suppose). The owner of the female is still going to be the one responsible for the e-spay or the whelping or whatever else. Has anyone on this thread said that it's entirely the owner of the bitch's fault if an unaltered loose male gets into her yard and impregnates her? I don't think so. Owners of unaltered males definitely shouldn't be letting them run at large. Owners of unaltered females should keep them in sight and safe at all times when they're outside while in heat. Is it fair that an owner can't expect her bitch to be safe in her own yard? Of course not. But it's an annoyance they have to deal with.


You are right, Crantastic. I'm a practical person and realize that what is "fair" and what is reality are very often not the same thing. I don't think anyone here said that the owner of the female was always at fault, but I've picked up a bit of a vibe here that apologizes for the loose intact males. Yes, a female, of any species, bears the brunt of unintended pregnancy, that's just biological fact, so they/their owners have more of an interest in preventing it. Sure would be nice if everyone was playing the same game, though.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

katielou said:


> I let all my dog wander around the neighborhood intact. How else would I make back their adoption fees if I couldn't sell puppies?


The only bright spot in this 120+ post thread!!!


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Actually from what I've seen of current American society the guy is usually at fault and has little to say about any potential offspring (saying that as a person who's pro-choice). However humans have a higher thought process, dogs are far more instinct driven than we are.


I'm a stepmother and a divorced biological mother, I know this whole drill VERY well. Both how men can get put on the "hook" and how women can get left "holding the bag". I am pro-choice as well, and I've lectured my young adult, all male, stepsons and sons about this multiple times. Once an unintended pregnancy happens, their options are removed, they can't force an abortion or an adoption and they can't prevent an abortion. The ONLY choice they have is before they have sex, so use it wisely . But, when unintended pregnancies happen, you can bet that the female is blamed, even if she is the only one with a choice after the fact.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

katielou said:


> I let all my dog wander around the neighborhood intact. How else would I make back their adoption fees if I couldn't sell puppies?


 You must be my neighbor! Oh wait you are getting adoption fees, not drowning the pups, nevermind.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, I think it's sad that killing a dog is perfectly legal but getting it medical care isn't. . .if that is indeed true. Something is seriously messed up there.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

So how many kennel owners keep dogs leashed or only indoors when in heat? Or do they rely on fences?


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## PatchworkRobot (Aug 24, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Well, I think it's sad that killing a dog is perfectly legal but getting it medical care isn't. . .if that is indeed true. Something is seriously messed up there.


Regardless of the discussion, which is driving me bonkers, taking a dog to get neutered is not equal to getting medical care for an injured dog. I'm sorry. If an injured dog showed up in my yard I probably wouldn't hesitate to get it medical care. I'd want somebody to do the same for me if, for some reason, they found my dog in that state. If an intact dog showed up in my yard, even if I had a bitch in heat, I would not take it to get neutered (nor would I shoot it). The dog is reacting to instinct/hormones/whatever and that is completely NATURAL. I don't think that anybody here would argue with you if you said you were taking in somebody's injured dog for medical care but spitefully getting it neutered is completely different.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Wow! I am somewhat shocked and maybe secretly happy after reading this thread. Shocked that some of you have had dogs escape so often and happy that I have not. I am not bragging at all, just commenting on a fact. In my 34 years of dog ownership, I have only lost my dog 1 time for about 2 minutes and that was because she was behind a bush in the dark and I couldn't see her. I have been called paranoid in the past in my care of my dogs but to date (and hopefully not jinxing myself) I have never had a dog escape from me. When I put my dogs outside, they are only out for a short time unless I am out with them. If I am not out with them, they pretty much go potty and come in or I am in the window peeking out frequently. Carsten (one of my current dogs) will on rare occasion like to lay out on the patio by himself for a little longer but I still check frequently as I am paranoid. 

I have had dogs slip their collars while I was holding the leash but I grab them and reconnect. When this happened I problem solved by connecting the leash with one of these http://compare.ebay.com/like/130618555768?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar rather then a snap hook. I feel bad for anyone struggling with an escape artist and I am glad that I don't have to. Sadly, my dogs would never go outside without me on the end of a leash if I did have one. 

I personally would NEVER leave a bitch outside in heat whether I had a 6 foot or 15 foot high fence. It just isn't a risk I would like to take.

I hope I never have a dog disappear from me. It is a scary feeling and my heart goes out to anyone going through that. My mind goes a million miles an hour just thinking of all that could happen to a loose dog. I am forever yelling at a friend of mine who's dog has gotten out on more then one occasion.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

juliemule said:


> So how many kennel owners keep dogs leashed or only indoors when in heat? Or do they rely on fences?


If you mean Boarding Kennels, most don't allow bitches in heat. 

I'm not sure how most breeding kennels do it. I'd assume they have a separate area for the females when in heat. 

My mother never kenneled outdoors, we did have intact females and intact males in the house (including the occasional guest bitch in for breeding), during heats we rotated dogs using the Florida room to primarily house the in heat bitch. I think in my mothers 30 years of breeding she had ONE accidental litter and that was thanks to my little brother (who was 5 at the time). The sire of that litter was a Fawn Dobe and the mother a black bi-color GSD, the litter produced the first dog I took to an Obedience title (at 14 years old), a blue male named "Butch".


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

juliemule said:


> So how many kennel owners keep dogs leashed or only indoors when in heat? Or do they rely on fences?


You are an idiot if you sololy rely on a fence to keep your female safe while in heat. A male dog has been known to break through windows to get to a female in heat. Dogs can breed through a fence and even a wire crate. Not much can keep a determined male from a female in heat. That's why it's so important to take so many steps to prevent unwanted pregnancies and why the average dog owner isn't responsible enough to own an intact dog.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Yes breeding kennels, I know several large kennels, that rely on fencing to keep dogs from being bred. It would be impossible to have 5 or 6 females in the house with karate breeds that tend to be aggressive. They are not with the owner 24-7, and they don't have accidental litters. Its a little different than having a house dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

PatchworkRobot said:


> The dog is reacting to instinct/hormones/whatever and that is completely NATURAL.


Natural or not, having a bunch of intact dogs stalking your door when your dog is in heat is annoying and risky. Having ONE dog hanging around constantly is annoying and risky. 



> I don't think that anybody here would argue with you if you said you were taking in somebody's injured dog for medical care but *spitefully* getting it neutered is completely different.


What if it's not done from spite, but because you believe it will save the dog's life (by reducing the urge to roam) or just to keep your female safe? Not sure why it would have to be about spite.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

There's a difference between emergency medical care and elective surgery.


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## Elia (Apr 26, 2009)

Rather it is done in spite or not - it is an elective medical procedure, and not your decision to make no matter what you believe.

ETA: Ninja'd


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> You are an idiot if you sololy rely on a fence to keep your female safe while in heat. A male dog has been known to break through windows to get to a female in heat. Dogs can breed through a fence and even a wire crate. Not much can keep a determined male from a female in heat. That's why it's so important to take so many steps to prevent unwanted pregnancies and why the average dog owner isn't responsible enough to own an intact dog.


 Calling me in idiot is really silly. I breed dogs, and yes I know all about dogs escaping to mate. I know firsthand on dogs not even being in heat destroying things to get places they want to be. I 
Currently I have 8 dogs, between malinois, Dutch shepherds which are known to be destructive. I have a little experience herself. Dogs that try to slip leads, will eat a door, fences, break windows, been there done that. Electricity stops these things. I have never had an issue with any breeding mishaps. If you had read, you may have understood that.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Darkmoon said:


> You are an idiot if you sololy rely on a fence to keep your female safe while in heat. A male dog has been known to break through windows to get to a female in heat. Dogs can breed through a fence and even a wire crate. Not much can keep a determined male from a female in heat. That's why it's so important to take so many steps to prevent unwanted pregnancies and why the average dog owner isn't responsible enough to own an intact dog.


No kidding. I don't keep intact dogs but if I had a dog in heat, she'd be outside to potty only, supervised, then back in the house. No way would she be outside alone for any reason


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Elia said:


> Rather it is done in spite or not - it is an elective medical procedure, and not your decision to make no matter what you believe.


If a dog is on my property, life-and-death decisions are mine to make. I'm seeing elective surgery as a more benign option.

So, what's the difference if I take him to a shelter (an hour away, one that is not the official AC shelter for this area (because the AC shelters only take town dogs), one the owners may not even check, and they neuter him before allowing the owners to claim him? Seems to be the same thing to me.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

juliemule said:


> Calling me in idiot is really silly. I breed dogs, and yes I know all about dogs escaping to mate. I know firsthand on dogs not even being in heat destroying things to get places they want to be. I
> Currently I have 8 dogs, between malinois, Dutch shepherds which are known to be destructive. I have a little experience herself. Dogs that try to slip leads, will eat a door, fences, break windows, been there done that. Electricity stops these things. I have never had an issue with any breeding mishaps. If you had read, you may have understood that.


I never called you an idiot and I'm sorry you took it that way. I've seen what a male dog can do trying to get to a female in heat. I do think that people who sololy rely on just fencing to keep their dogs in heat safe are just playing a game of russian roulette. 

And it's very much possible to keep dog aggressive dogs, multiple of them inside a house at once. A female in heat should be kept inside behind locked doors. Although even that doesn't always keep them safe but it keeps them that much safer.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> No kidding. I don't keep intact dogs but if I had a dog in heat, she'd be outside to potty only, supervised, then back in the house. No way would she be outside alone for any reason


Unfortunately these aren't house pets I am talking about.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> What if it's not done from spite, but because you believe it will save the dog's life (by reducing the urge to roam) or just to keep your female safe? Not sure why it would have to be about spite.


It's not about spite, it's about the owners right to make that decision. I know of a Humane Society that Nuetered a show dog that got out accidentally (during the hold period) that was successfully sued for damages.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Willowy said:


> If a dog is on my property, life-and-death decisions are mine to make. I'm seeing elective surgery as a more benign option.
> 
> So, what's the difference if I take him to a shelter (an hour away, one that is not the official AC shelter for this area (because the AC shelters only take town dogs), one the owners may not even check, and they neuter him before allowing the owners to claim him? Seems to be the same thing to me.


You are very much incorrect. If My show dog jumped a fence and you picked him up and had him neutered you bet I'd be suing you for loss of income and anything else I could do because that dog is now worthless. It's happened before at a shelter where a show dog was neutered before the stray hold was up and the owners won. 

Surgery to save a dogs life right that second does NOT equal neutering/spaying a dog. It's like cropping or docking a dog. It's UNNECESSARY to save that dogs life. Amputating a dogs leg to keep the dog from dying, or opening up a dog that just got hit by a car to stop the bleeding is fine your saving the dogs life. Just because you found a dog, does not mean it's your propriety to do what you wish with.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> If a dog is on my property, life-and-death decisions are mine to make. I'm seeing elective surgery as a more benign option.


A nueter/spay is no more a life saving operation than a declaw is, a declaw is far less invasive. If the dog has a broken leg you could take it to the vet for treatment, but having it nuetered when it doesn't belong to you is a damn good way to get your backside sued. If the dogs are that bad bad, trap them and have them taken to the shelter.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, guess if I get an acreage, I'll just hire a guy to come out and kill stray dogs. . .seems to be the only option, other than simply putting up with wandering dogs harrassing mine. Apparently if I try to save them, someone will sue me.

That doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone else?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy, 

I don't understand your frame of mind that says a desexing is a life saving procedure, it's not.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

What sounds ridiculous to me is hat you equate neutering/spaying a dog with saving it.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Guess those with intact dogs/bitches are just the worst people ever then... Poor Pentti and Bubbles. I feel sorry for their lives...


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Well, guess if I get an acreage, I'll just hire a guy to come out and kill stray dogs. . .seems to be the only option, other than simply putting up with wandering dogs harrassing mine. Apparently if I try to save them, someone will sue me.
> 
> That doesn't sound ridiculous to anyone else?


:doh: Um, no. You take the dog and you take it to the shelter OR you call AC and take them to the shelter. Which in return SAVES THEIR LIFE. If they get put down at the shelter, so be it. It is NOT YOUR RIGHT to do an *elective *surgery on a dog that YOU DO NOT OWN. You can keep an intact dog for all of it's life without an issue meaning that just like declawing a cat or cropping a dogs ear means it's an ELECTIVE surgery. Not getting a dog MEDICAL CARE for something in which it's going to die in the next few hours is something totaly different.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> I never called you an idiot and I'm sorry you took it that way. I've seen what a male dog can do trying to get to a female in heat. I do think that people who sololy rely on just fencing to keep their dogs in heat safe are just playing a game of russian roulette.
> 
> And it's very much possible to keep dog aggressive dogs, multiple of them inside a house at once. A female in heat should be kept inside behind locked doors. Although even that doesn't always keep them safe but it keeps them that much safer.


Yes fencing alone is not adequate. I have electrified fencing that works very well. When the power was out when my house was damaged from a tornado, it was out longer than the back up generator could practically be used for, the one female was kenneled at the vets office, and arrangements were made for a female and her litter.

Yes it is very possible to keep aggressive dogs together, supervised. It is also possible to train a dog to be housebroken. However, get some of the dogs that come here, and have them not properly contained, and its a liability. Besides the few dogs that I breed, as I really see overbreeding as a huge problem, and feel the majority of animals should be spayed or neutered, I also take in very HA and DA animals. We re train them to he working dogs. See thesew aren't pet dogs, many have had some pretty bad starts, and dogs of this nature at this point in their life are not safe to be kept in your living room. Its a little different than your average dog. Eventually most get there, but not all dogs want to sleep in bed with you and be patted on the head. The ones that do, all the better.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

A free-roaming (farm) dog will almost always stop wandering after being neutered. If he wanders, somebody is going to shoot him. If he is content to stay home, chances are he'll live a longer life. 

We are not talking about house dogs or town dogs or show dogs. These are free-roaming farm dogs whose owners don't really care about them, and the only reason they aren't neutered is because the owners don't want to spend money on a stupid dog or because the man of the house gets queasy thinking about his dog's cojones going away.

There IS NO AC, and the shelter is an hour away. I like how if the shelter kills him or neuters him, I'm somehow not responsible even if I took him there. Sorry, I don't see it that way. If I take an animal to a shelter, I am basically hiring them to do what they do. I'm just as responsible for his outcome as they are.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)




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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

[Q
UOTE=Darkmoon;1130430]:doh: Um, no. You take the dog and you take it to the shelter OR you call AC and take them to the shelter. Which in return SAVES THEIR LIFE. If they get put down at the shelter, so be it. It is NOT YOUR RIGHT to do an *elective *surgery on a dog that YOU DO NOT OWN. You can keep an intact dog for all of it's life without an issue meaning that just like declawing a cat or cropping a dogs ear means it's an ELECTIVE surgery. Not getting a dog MEDICAL CARE for something in which it's going to die in the next few hours is something totaly different.[/QUOTE]

Wow, I don't know how many times I can explain. There is NO animal control, and the shelter WILL NOT take in dogs. They are full from the irrresponsible people that let unaltered dogs run loose all over the county! The sheriff office says, shoot it if its on your property. Life or limb?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> A free-roaming (farm) dog will almost always stop wandering after being neutered. If he wanders, somebody is going to shoot him. If he is content to stay home, chances are he'll live a longer life.
> 
> We are not talking about house dogs or town dogs or show dogs. These are free-roaming farm dogs whose owners don't really care about them, and the only reason they aren't neutered is because the owners don't want to spend money on a stupid dog or because the man of the house gets queasy thinking about his dog's cojones going away.
> 
> There IS NO AC, and the shelter is an hour away. I like how if the shelter kills him or neuters him, I'm somehow not responsible even if I took him there. Sorry, I don't see it that way. If I take an animal to a shelter, I am basically hiring them to do what they do. I'm just as responsible for his outcome as they are.


Doesn't matter what type of dog it is, it's not your dog and it's not your right to have it nuetered PERIOD.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

So it's my right to kill him or hire the shelter to kill him or neuter him, but not my right to pay the vet to neuter him (which is very non-invasive; farm animals are castrated without anethestic all the time. Snip snip). Makes lots of sense.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Doesn't matter what type of dog it is, it's not your dog and it's not your right to have it nuetered PERIOD.


Its my right to protect my dogs and prevent accidental breedings.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

juliemule said:


> Wow, I don't know how many times I can explain. There is NO animal control, and the shelter WILL NOT take in dogs. They are full from the irrresponsible people that let unaltered dogs run loose all over the county! The sheriff office says, shoot it if its on your property. Life or limb?


At this point who is even talking to you? That was directed at Willowy not at you. Not every post around here is directed at you. 

Do whatever you want to with your OWN dogs. I really don't give a hoot, not like anything is going to change your ways anyways. Good luck and the x button is located in the upper right corner of the screen. 

-sighs-


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I know the solution most kennel owners I know would have, that is to just shoot the dog. I will not do that.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> At this point who is even talking to you? That was directed at Willowy not at you. Not every post around here is directed at you.


LOL, juliemule and I were arguing the same thing. She actually said it first. . .I was just defending the concept.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> At this point who is even talking to you? That was directed at Willowy not at you. Not every post around here is directed at you.
> 
> Do whatever you want to with your OWN dogs. I really don't give a hoot, not like anything is going to change your ways anyways. Good luck and the x button is located in the upper right corner of the screen.
> 
> -sighs-


 I'm sorry I thought this was a discussion forum.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

then dont do anything to the dog ... leave it be ... be more vigilant with your own dog ... it is NOT YOUR RIGHT to neuter/spay somebody elses dog ... PERIOD ... i dont understand what you guys dont get about that


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Willowy said:


> LOL, juliemule and I were arguing the same thing. She actually said it first. . .I was just defending the concept.


Um, no. She's talking about keeping intact bitches behind fencing to be ok. You are talking about taking a dog you don't own to be either Spayed or Neutered. I can not comprehend how that is the same thing...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> Um, no. She's talking about keeping intact bitches behind fencing to be ok. You are talking about taking a dog you don't own to be either Spayed or Neutered. I can not comprehend how that is the same thing...


Read a few pages back. . .


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Miranda16 said:


> then dont do anything to the dog ... leave it be ... be more vigilant with your own dog ... it is NOT YOUR RIGHT to neuter/spay somebody elses dog ... PERIOD ... i dont understand what you guys dont get about that


OK then. Tolerate having several intact males hanging around your house for a month, ready to jump your female every time you open the door. Fun times.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)




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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Darkmoon said:


> Um, no. She's talking about keeping intact bitches behind fencing to be ok. You are talking about taking a dog you don't own to be either Spayed or Neutered. I can not comprehend how that is the same thing...


No actually you have that wrong. This argument is pointless, as if keeping my dogs behind electrified fencing is not enough, I'm sure keeping the kennel dogs inside while in heat would prevent the wandering farm dogs from breaking intomy full windows while I'm at work. I dont see my dogs running loose and escaping.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

it might be annoying ... but it is still NOT YOUR RIGHT ... like ... i dont know what you guys dont get about it ...post pictures of the dogs around, try and find the owners ... if there arent any responses, take the dog to the shelter ... i dont care if they cant take the dogs ... at least they could hold the dog and then humanely euthanize it instead of somebody shooting it.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Willowy said:


> So it's my right to kill him or hire the shelter to kill him or neuter him, but not my right to pay the vet to neuter him (which is very non-invasive; farm animals are castrated without anethestic all the time. Snip snip). Makes lots of sense.


The shelter holds a dog for a certain amount of time giving the owner time to claim them and levying fines for the dog being a stray, They have the authority to nueter the dog AFTER the hold period is over as they are part of the County government (or authorized by it). As far as shooting it, if the dog is endangering you or your property you can shoot it (if you choose) just as you can shoot someone breaking into your house and endangering your family. If the dog is a stray and NOT endangering your family or harrassing livestock you can't.


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## Canaqua (Sep 27, 2011)

Seriously? We're having a discussion about killing or neutering dogs that don't belong to us? I'm a HUGE advocate for spay and neuter and I've never owned an intact dog past puberty. I've made previous posts on this thread about not blaming the "female" of whichever species. BUT, if I don't want my bitches bred, I spay them. IF, I had a bitch I wanted to breed under controlled conditions, she'd never be outside without me attached to her hip (my spayed females are never outside without me right there). In a polite society we'd be able to put a bitch in heat outside, but as I said in another reply, reality is reality and "fair" is not common. YES, the owners of intact male dogs should take some responsiblity for controlling them, ABSOLUTELY, I won't make any excuses for letting them run around and escape, but shooting them or neutering them if they do? No. Give me a break. If it's that much of a threa....move, spay your dog, keep it in the house, make a kennel with four chainlink walls and a roof, or, actually get off your butt, get a leash out and walk the darned dog under supervision. That applies to the intact males, too, BTW . 

\


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

juliemule said:


> No actually you have that wrong. This argument is pointless, as if keeping my dogs behind electrified fencing is not enough, I'm sure keeping the kennel dogs inside while in heat would prevent the wandering farm dogs from breaking intomy full windows while I'm at work. I dont see my dogs running loose and escaping.


Wow you have nothing better to say then to start that stuff back up? That was what? 5 pages ago and 3 topics ago. If you have to bring that back up I must be doing a great job and making you feel uncomfortable with what you are saying.

But the farm dogs can't get to your bitches because of the electric fence so why worry about them and no matter what your reasoning is, it's not legal to spay/neuter a dog that's not yours. I do hope that if you do try to do that one day that you mess up and the farmer sues you. Even many farm dogs are much loved companions of a farmer. It's still not your right to mettle in rather they can breed or not. If stray dogs are that much of an issue, then you need to get your neighbors together and figure out a solution.

Also just an FYI, Spaying/Neutering a dog doesn't stop a dog from wondering. It's another myth that is shoved down people's throats by Pro-spay/neutering agendas.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

upendi'smommy said:


> I wish I could like this 1,000 times. Seriously. You can also bet, that if someone had one of MY dogs altered without MY consent there would be a lawsuit.


THIS. I'd be pressing charges if anyone had the nerve to neuter my dog, and I WOULD win.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> If the dog is a stray and NOT endangering your family or harrassing livestock you can't.


Several states (I haven't looked into whether this state is one or not yet. I'm going to find a real computer and look it up) authorize killing a dog running loose for no other reason than his loose-ness. Did you read the link Nargle put up?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> Also just an FYI, Spaying/Neutering a dog doesn't stop a dog from wondering. It's another myth that is shoved down people's throats by Pro-spay/neutering agendas.


Every male farm dog I've known that got neutered stopped wandering pretty quickly. I don't think it makes much of a difference for town dogs who are mostly looking for something interesting to sniff. But for a farm dog who has lots of interesting things to sniff on his own property, and who really has no reason for wandering other than looking for females, yeah, it does make a difference.


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Every male farm dog I've known that got neutered stopped wandering pretty quickly. I don't think it makes much of a difference for town dogs who are mostly looking for something interesting to sniff. But for a farm dog who has lots of interesting things to sniff on his own property, and who really has no reason for wandering other than looking for females, yeah, it does make a difference.


Sorry Willowy, it still doesn't make it right. It might take out some of the wondering, but it's a two way street. Keep your females under wraps when in heat and the likenesses of issues drops a ton. Leave your females outside all the time and guess what you are going to attract? Males.

It's your responsibility to keep your females safe, but it's ILLEGAL to alter someone elses dog just because you have a female in heat and a male dog is interested.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

RCloud said:


> THIS. I'd be pressing charges if anyone had the nerve to neuter my dog, and I WOULD win.


Would your dog stay a week at another home because a female was in heat, and you not care?

I believe there is a whole different world on how animals are kept where most of you are and the one I live in. When I lived in CA I never saw this problem, in Texas I did, yet not to the extent of stray or unkempt animals.I am very happy that it isn't this way everywhere, and seriously wish I didn't have the problem here. Not for me, but for the dogs. There are many good owners, but many more that don't neuter and keep the dogs loose. Mange is treated with burnt oil, and de worming is feeding Bacon grease. Seriously.

The humane society is always full, and dogs are dumped in the country when sick, old, not cute, or people get tired of them. Move? Yeah, that would be nice, just not possible at this point.

Trust me I know all about irresponsible owners, and people not caring about a dog. Last year a neighbor ( in the country our neighbors are far apart) had a dog with a terrible ear infection. I saw him, told him it was probably an infection, advised him to take him to the vet. A month passed, I saw him in town, asked about the dog, he shot him because he nipped at him when he tried to clean his ear. This is what type or owners we deal with here.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Canaqua said:


> Seriously? We're having a discussion about killing or neutering dogs that don't belong to us? I'm a HUGE advocate for spay and neuter and I've never owned an intact dog past puberty. I've made previous posts on this thread about not blaming the "female" of whichever species. BUT, if I don't want my bitches bred, I spay them. IF, I had a bitch I wanted to breed under controlled conditions, she'd never be outside without me attached to her hip (my spayed females are never outside without me right there). In a polite society we'd be able to put a bitch in heat outside, but as I said in another reply, reality is reality and "fair" is not common. YES, the owners of intact male dogs should take some responsiblity for controlling them, ABSOLUTELY, I won't make any excuses for letting them run around and escape, but shooting them or neutering them if they do? No. Give me a break. If it's that much of a threa....move, spay your dog, keep it in the house, make a kennel with four chainlink walls and a roof, or, actually get off your butt, get a leash out and walk the darned dog under supervision. That applies to the intact males, too, BTW .
> 
> \


I agree, I also am a huge advocate for sputering IMO I think there is no reason not to sputer & like I said, if a person is planning on showing, or responsibly breeding then there is no reason to have an intact dog, simple as that. Plus it's a lot of trouble that a person doesn't need :/


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> I agree, I also am a huge advocate for sputering IMO I think there is no reason not to sputer & like I said, if a person is planning on showing, or responsibly breeding then there is no reason to have an intact dog, simple as that. Plus it's a lot of trouble that a person doesn't need :/


What about the fact I have done my own research and determined not to neuter my dog? He is not a show dog nor will he breed, and those sure ain't the only two reasons one should consider when making the decision to alter. 

I have zero trouble with him relating to the fact he is not altered, btw.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Darkmoon said:


> Sorry Willowy, it still doesn't make it right. It might take out some of the wondering, but it's a two way street. Keep your females under wraps when in heat and the likenesses of issues drops a ton. Leave your females outside all the time and guess what you are going to attract? Males.
> 
> It's your responsibility to keep your females safe, but it's ILLEGAL to alter someone elses dog just because you have a female in heat and a male dog is interested.


I'm sorry but it still doesn't give much weight to your argument of not spaying/neutering. I don't understand why you are talking about it like its a mutilation, like I took my healthy dogs in to get their limbs needlessly amputated or something :/. All I did was spay/neutered them, if you did you wouldn't have to worry about watching your females against wayward males. 

Forgive me but that's a little irresponsible of you to imply that other ppl be responsible for their dogs but (in a way) you aren't being responsible for yours.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> I agree, I also am a huge advocate for sputering IMO I think there is no reason not to sputer & like I said, if a person is planning on showing, or responsibly breeding then there is no reason to have an intact dog, simple as that. Plus it's a lot of trouble that a person doesn't need :/


I'm definitely not planning to breed or show Bella - she's intact. She may very well remain intact because 1)Her stenosis may not allow her to safely be put under for the surgery 2) Siberian's don't do well at all under anesthesia 3) it's an elective surgery and (I feel) is an unnecessary surgery (for her) to go through 4) I have managed with little to no trouble at all (bleeding is a minor annoyance) to have an intact female for 11.5 years prior to Bella and didn't have any puppies or even any close calls.

Personally for me - keeping an intact female isn't a lot of trouble at all.

I totally agree with TWAB:


> What about the fact I have done my own research and determined not to neuter my dog? He is not a show dog nor will he breed, and those sure ain't the only two reasons one should consider when making the decision to alter.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Darkmoon said:


> Sorry Willowy, it still doesn't make it right. It might take out some of the wondering, but it's a two way street. Keep your females under wraps when in heat and the likenesses of issues drops a ton. Leave your females outside all the time and guess what you are going to attract? Males.


 You think keeping the females inside keeps the boys away? Hah. They can smell her inside. If you take her out to pee, they smell it. They hang around no matter what.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Willowy said:


> You think keeping the females inside keeps the boys away? Hah. They can smell her inside. If you take her out to pee, they smell it.


I definitely read her saying that in the paragraph. 

And if we're gonna bring up DM being this supposed irresponsible owner again I'm going to throw down.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I make no claims of DM being irresponsible. I am only saying that I think that if an intact male dog is hanging around your house for weeks at a time, having him neutered is a perfectly reasonable response, and preferable to the alternatives.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

juliemule said:


> Would your dog stay a week at another home because a female was in heat, and you not care?


If given the chance? Of course he would. That's kind of a dumb question. Most male dogs would, even those that have been neutered. Would I not care? Does the simple fact of me choosing to not neuter my dog mean I shouldn't care about my dog's actions? My male is intact because I don't see the point in altering him. He's 6 years old, has had them this long, he can keep them for the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned. He has no behavior issues as a result of it, I'm careful with him while out in public, so why should I neuter him? It's MY choice as to weather or not I neuter him and MY choice alone. No one else get's to make that decision for me, and if they did, you can bet your ass I'd be taking them to court.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Willowy said:


> I make no claims of DM being irresponsible. I am only saying that I think that if an intact male dog is hanging around your house for weeks at a time, having him neutered is a perfectly reasonable response, and preferable to the alternatives.


Yeah, not talking to you. I began a different paragraph, but for further clarification only talking to people who have said it and if you haven't then it does not apply to you.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

RCloud said:


> My male is intact because I don't see the point in altering him. He's 6 years old, has had them this long, he can keep them for the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned. He has no behavior issues as a result of it, I'm careful with him while out in public, so why should I neuter him? It's MY choice as to weather or not I neuter him and MY choice alone. No one else get's to make that decision for me, and if they did, you can bet your ass I'd be taking them to court.


 As long as you are careful with him, yeah, it's your choice. He starts hanging around other peoples' houses for days and weeks, all bets are off.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Willowy said:


> As long as you are careful with him, yeah, it's your choice. He starts hanging around other peoples' houses for days and weeks, all bets are off.


No, all bets are not off. I don't care what happens. You fix my dog without my knowledge or consent, and I'll fix YOU in court.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Niraya said:


> I'm definitely not planning to breed or show Bella - she's intact. She may very well remain intact because 1)Her stenosis may not allow her to safely be put under for the surgery 2) Siberian's don't do well at all under anesthesia 3) it's an elective surgery and (I feel) is an unnecessary surgery (for her) to go through 4) I have managed with little to no trouble at all (bleeding is a minor annoyance) to have an intact female for 11.5 years prior to Bella and didn't have any puppies or even any close calls.
> 
> Personally for me - keeping an intact female isn't a lot of trouble at all.
> I totally agree with TWAB:


I believe I remember saying that IF your dog has a medical condition that prevents them from having the surgery (& some dogs do ) then those dogs are exempt from this discussion. But if a person didn't do it simply because they didn't want to (for whatever reason ) then I'm sorry but I can't agree with it. 

I'm not condemning anyone I just can't say I agree with that reasoning & my first suggestion will always to be to sputer. We have enough dogs running about unwanted thank you.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> No, all bets are not off. I don't care what happens. You fix my dog without my knowledge or consent, and I'll fix YOU in court.


LOL, I would like to see how that would go. About 50/50, I think, depending on the judge. I think, in most states, if your dog is on someone else's property for 10 days, he is legally theirs. Shelters usually have only a 3-day stray hold before the dog is neutered and put up for adoption (or killed). It would take me longer than that to get a neuter appointment. If you hadn't claimed him by then, well, not much else to be done and legally a very shaky position.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> I believe I remember saying that IF your dog has a medical condition that prevents them from having the surgery (& some dogs do ) then those dogs are exempt from this discussion. But if a person didn't do it simply because they didn't want to (for whatever reason ) then I'm sorry but I can't agree with it.
> 
> I'm not condemning anyone I just can't say I agree with that reasoning & my first suggestion will always to be to sputer. We have enough dogs running about unwanted thank you.


My dog not being altered has nothing to do with all the unwanted to dogs running around.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> I believe I remember saying that IF your dog has a medical condition that prevents them from having the surgery (& some dogs do ) then those dogs are exempt from this discussion. But if a person didn't do it simply because they didn't want to (for whatever reason ) then I'm sorry but I can't agree with it.
> 
> I'm not condemning anyone I just can't say I agree with that reasoning & my first suggestion will always to be to sputer. We have enough dogs running about unwanted thank you.


Well then I apologize for having not seen that and only saw that post (that didn't include exemption due to medical reason). 

But I'm sorry my unaltered female has nothing to do with unwanted dogs running about.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Yeah, not talking to you. I began a different paragraph, but for further clarification only talking to people who have said it and if you haven't then it does not apply to you.


I sense a certain amount of animosity Against ppl who choose to disagree with you, TWAB. I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion, I support & will always chOose first, to sputer but I'm not going to slander those who don't .... Just disagree with them :9.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

And I wonder how much you could possibly get in damages if someone "wrongly" neutered your dog. Unless he's a valuable breeding dog, what would damages be? I mean, if someone killed my dog and I sued him, I would maybe get a couple hundred dollars even if I won. I imagine his fertility would be worth even less. Depending where you are, small-claims judges are generally not too patient with "pain and suffering" claims, especially if it's something not generally considered to cause suffering. Punitive damages are pretty hard to get, too. And that's IF you could prove who did it.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Willowy said:


> And I wonder how much you could possibly get in damages if someone "wrongly" neutered your dog. Unless he's a valuable breeding dog, what would damages be? I mean, if someone killed my dog and I sued him, I would maybe get a couple hundred dollars even if I won. I imagine his fertility would be worth even less. Depending where you are, small-claims judges are generally not too patient with "pain and suffering" claims, especially if it's something not generally considered to cause suffering. Punitive damages are pretty hard to get, too. And that's IF you could prove who did it.


Well., all I know is this: if anyone were to take my dog, put her under for non lifesaving surgery without my consent, I would be ticked. Really ticked. And before anyone starts on the "if is lifesaving" it isn't. It is elective. It is not your responsiblity to have someone else's dog spayed/nuetered. If the dog was hit by a car, you should (as a good human being) take the dog to a vet and try to help it. Other than that, you take the dog to a shelter and have it scanned for a chip, let them wait it out for any owner.

And I would hire a lawyer to get every penny I could if someone did an unnecessary procedure on my dog. Period.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> I sense a certain amount of animosity GSDs ppl who choose to disagree with you, TWAB. I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion, I support & will always chOose first, to sputer but I'm not going to slander those who don't .... Just disagree with them :9.


Wait.. what? GSDs ppl? And in defending Darkmoon I ain't even talking about spay/neuter. I'm defending her as a person because I have actually met her and her dogs and know how she rolls. Other than that, I don't give a rip what you choose to do. I give a rip about what I choose to do. You are certainly slandering people who choose not to by saying "There are enough unwanted dogs running around" because guess what? Not a single one of those dogs are my fault. I have volunteered with a rescue for five years, am an employee at a shelter location for a rescue, and have 4 rescues plus a 6th dog I saved from being euthanized that I'm rehabbing. Unwanted dogs and their owners are not my fault and I like to think I do the best I can to help those who are unwanted- that are not that way because I chose not to neuter my dog.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Niraya said:


> Well then I apologize for having not seen that and only saw that post (that didn't include exemption due to medical reason).
> 
> But I'm sorry my unaltered female has nothing to do with unwanted dogs running about.


Ppl who have dogs with medical issues are exempt from this discussion & judgment regarding this topic IMO 

None of my comments were directed at those who own dogs such as this.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Willowy said:


> LOL, I would like to see how that would go.


No you wouldn't.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

theyogachick said:


> And I would hire a lawyer to get every penny I could if someone did an unnecessary procedure on my dog. Period.


Ever hire a lawyer? My parents did once. . .$5000 retainer, and he was a cheap lawyer. Quite the expense for what piddling amount you might get for your "property" being "damaged". But if you don't let your dogs hang around other peoples' houses for extended periods of time, it shouldn't come up.

I don't think people understand the "no shelters" part. There are no shelters in the area! None! That means zero! If you can take a day off work to take him to the nearest open-intake shelter, fine, but his owners won't look there, or be able to take a day off work to go claim him even if they do. So it's basically dognapping, and you're probably signing his death warrant. In the rurals, you have to deal with these things yourself. Of all ways of dealing with it, I know what I think is most humane. Plus, nobody will find out who did it. It's like "shoot, shovel, and shut up" but without the death.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

You are missing the point entirely, Willowy. I am saying that, no matter what the cost, I would SUE anyone who decided to take upon themselves medical procedures for my dog. I don't care what it would cost--I would NOT let them get by with it. Period. End of sentence. 

And, if the dog had tags and the person STILL had him/her spayed/neutered...heads would roll.

The dog doesn't belong to you. Should the owners be more responsible? Sure...they should keep a better eye on their dogs. I am not saying the shouldn't, but no one has the right to decide what procedures should be done on anyone else's dog.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Ever hire a lawyer? My parents did once. . .$5000 retainer, and he was a cheap lawyer. Quite the expense for what piddling amount you might get for your "property" being "damaged". But if you don't let your dogs hang around other peoples' houses for extended periods of time, it shouldn't come up.
> 
> I don't think people understand the "no shelters" part. There are no shelters in the area! None! That means zero! If you can take a day off work to take him to the nearest open-intake shelter, fine, but his owners won't look there, or be able to take a day off work to go claim him even if they do. So it's basically dognapping, and you're probably signing his death warrant. In the rurals, you have to deal with these things yourself. Of all ways of dealing with it, I know what I think is most humane. Plus, nobody will find out who did it. It's like "shoot, shovel, and shut up" but without the death.


Sad but true in many rual areas, there is no SPCA, pound, or shelter. But personally I won't shoot a dog that is, let's say minding its own business not bothering anyone.


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## Niraya (Jun 30, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> Ppl who have dogs with medical issues are exempt from this discussion & judgment regarding this topic IMO
> 
> None of my comments were directed at those who own dogs such as this.


Sorry I should have been more clear I was in a hurry. That's my fault. 

I understand that - but what I meant was that even if she didn't have that (stenosis) she wouldn't be spayed- my Pyrenees wasn't spayed either - neither dog of mine contribute/d to the "unwanted dogs running around". 

Not trying to argue or anything  just trying to understand your view better. I understand the (possible) risk that comes with owning an unaltered dog and I take every precaution to ensure a breeding with my unaltered dog doesn't take place. But saying that to me when I haven't contributed to the "unwanted dog" population kind of confused me I guess.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Everyone is talking like being sued is some huge deterrent. When it isn't really.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

In my area, roaming dogs and unwanted litters (which are not always related but occasionally are) are a huge issue. 

The way I see it, about 90% of dog owners here are not responsible enough to have an intact animal. While spaying or neutering isn't always in the animal's best interest, by far most people here should have their pet "fixed" simply on the accidental litter risk. I have no issue with the shelters and vets offices nagging folks to speuter. The responsible folks - educated and experienced dog owners with intact animals for sport, show, or health reasons - won't be influenced by the nagging. Only those uneducated on the issue or on the fence will be influenced. In my mind, those are folks who DEFINITELY need to speuter. Owning an intact animal is work and responsiblity. If you don't know what you're getting into, you should not be getting into it. 

Also, about 90% of loose dog cases in this area are completely avoidable. People leave their dogs unattended, unleashed, untrained, etc. I realize there are problem dogs and freak cases; those I exclude. In most instances, though, a dog loose is a result of human error or plain irresponsibility. My dog poops, plays, and trains in an unfenced suburban yard. She has *wandered exactly once in the two years we've owned her. Compare this to the black lab who regularly visits our house without his owner because he escapes his fenced lot. Not every dog is as biddable as mine, and not every family has the time or know-how to train their dog as well as mine is trained. But even an unbiddable, untrained dog is able to be contained. It just takes more work. For example, maybe the family with the lab could avoid leaving their dog in their yard for hours at a time without anything to occupy him. Maybe he'd dig out/climb out less often. 

If I found an unneutered dog running around my property, I would first attempt to catch and ID it. If unable to catch it, I would call animal control. In my mind, a loose dog is - 9 times out of 10 - irresponsible. An unneutered loose dog is even more so.

*= Entirely my fault. I let Gyps out to pee one night, completely forgot about her, and a half hour later, the doorbell rang. Our neighbors two houses down had been enjoying a family evening when they noticed a Gypsyface outside their living room window, happily watching them. They let her inside, leashed her, and brought her home. We guessed she got bored waiting for me to let her in and went to her favorite neighbor's house to say hi. That is THE ONLY time she has ever left our yard, though. We're unfenced, but she's well-trained and almost always supervised.


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## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Everyone is talking like being sued is some huge deterrent. When it isn't really.


can you honestly tell me that if your dog was returned to you with a tail docked or ears cropped or SOMETHING that was done without your permission, you would be okay with it? Or if your dog had been unaltered and returned to you altered that you would be okay with it?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> In my area, roaming dogs and unwanted litters (which are not always related but occasionally are) are a huge issue.
> 
> The way I see it, about 90% of dog owners here are not responsible enough to have an intact animal. While spaying or neutering isn't always in the animal's best interest, by far most people here should have their pet "fixed" simply on the accidental litter risk. I have no issue with the shelters and vets offices nagging folks to speuter. The responsible folks - educated and experienced dog owners with intact animals for sport, show, or health reasons - won't be influenced by the nagging. Only those uneducated on the issue or on the fence will be influenced. In my mind, those are folks who DEFINITELY need to speuter. Owning an intact animal is work and responsiblity. If you don't know what you're getting into, you should not be getting into it.
> 
> ...


& what a cute face It is too 

I also work to see everyone's POV, it would be boring if everyone thought the same.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

theyogachick said:


> can you honestly tell me that if your dog was returned to you with a tail docked or ears cropped or SOMETHING that was done without your permission, you would be okay with it? Or if your dog had been unaltered and returned to you altered that you would be okay with it?


What if the cat was returned declawed?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

theyogachick said:


> can you honestly tell me that if your dog was returned to you with a tail docked or ears cropped or SOMETHING that was done without your permission, you would be okay with it? Or if your dog had been unaltered and returned to you altered that you would be okay with it?


 Of course I'd be mad. But if my dog (or cat) is running around unsupervised it's my own fault and I can't blame anyone else for what happens. The few times my dogs got loose I was just grateful they came home alive, it would not have occurred to me to sue anyone if they hadn't. And it's not likely my dogs' tails or ears are causing anyone trouble like a dog's testicles definitely can.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

RCloud said:


> If given the chance? Of course he would. That's kind of a dumb question. Most male dogs would, even those that have been neutered. Would I not care? Does the simple fact of me choosing to not neuter my dog mean I shouldn't care about my dog's actions? My male is intact because I don't see the point in altering him. He's 6 years old, has had them this long, he can keep them for the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned. He has no behavior issues as a result of it, I'm careful with him while out in public, so why should I neuter him? It's MY choice as to weather or not I neuter him and MY choice alone. No one else get's to make that decision for me, and if they did, you can bet your ass I'd be taking them to court.


Did I imply you should neuter your male? Are you a responsible owner? I could care less if you neuter him or not. As long as your dog is not staying on my porch constantly trying to come into my house or getting zapped by my fence. I would guess you would care whether you dog was gone for a week?

Who would be taken to court when the dog who is running loose gets hit by a car, killing that beloved pet and causing damage to property? Me, because I have a dog on my property that is in heat? No.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

dogdragoness said:


> & what a cute face It is too


She's so stinking cute, it's true. Haha. Our neighbors thought the whole situation was darling. They told a much sweeter story than I did, and my family couldn't stop laughing about it. I, however, was in tears. I couldn't believe I'd left her outside. Anything could have happened. I'm still sore about it, egh. 

I realize this below wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to reply.



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> > can you honestly tell me that if your dog was returned to you with a tail docked or ears cropped or SOMETHING that was done without your permission, you would be okay with it? Or if your dog had been unaltered and returned to you altered that you would be okay with it?
> 
> 
> What if the cat was returned declawed?


I would never have the balls to chop off someone else's roaming dog's balls, BUT...

If an animal of mine was loose for any reason, and it came back speutered or declawed or docked or whatever, I would not be "okay" with it, persay; but I would also blame no one but myself. The animal got loose, my fault. The animal could have gotten hit by a car, killed by a coyote, stolen and used as fight bait, but it was neutered instead. Whatever happens to a loose animal, it's _my fault_ because the animal got loose. Sure, I'd be pissed that someone was gutsy enough to do something without my permission to my pet, but I wouldn't raise hell. I'd be more angry with myself. It wouldn't have happened if the animal was contained properly.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

juliemule said:


> Who would be taken to court when the dog who is running loose gets hit by a car, killing that beloved pet and causing damage to property? Me, because I have a dog on my property that is in heat? No.


This has what relevance to someone putting someone elses dog through surgery without consent or permission from the owner?


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

RCloud said:


> This has what relevance to someone putting someone elses dog through surgery without consent or permission from the owner?


If the dog were here, not claimed, causing destruction, damaging my property, whose fault is that? You think suing is going to do what? 
Its the same fact that the owner of that dog is responsible for the damage it causes to a vehicle or my dog or my house. If that dog is at the clinic and neutered if and when the owner picked it up, I seriously doubt any judge would award any damages to that irresponsible owner, just as if that dog is shot for causing damage here you would not be awarded anything in court. Here anyway. Last I checked neutering was not animal abuse, and that is about the only thing, and rarely then, any lawsuits are won. 

In fact, I had a lawyer when my dogs were poisoned, as did the humane society, and several other owners, and we were told that a county with a small population as ours, could not get anywhere suing the meter reader that did it. What population has to do with it, I can't tell you, as I'm not a lawyer, but over sixty dogs were killed, it proven that he did it, and we were told sorry.


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> If an animal of mine was loose for any reason, and it came back speutered or declawed or docked or whatever, I would not be "okay" with it, persay; but I would also blame no one but myself. The animal got loose, my fault. The animal could have gotten hit by a car, killed by a coyote, stolen and used as fight bait, but it was neutered instead. Whatever happens to a loose animal, it's _my fault_ because the animal got loose. Sure, I'd be pissed that someone was gutsy enough to do something without my permission to my pet, but I wouldn't raise hell. I'd be more angry with myself. It wouldn't have happened if the animal was contained properly.


I agree with this completely. Yes I would be upset if this happened but if my dog is loose, for ANY reason, its my own fault. One of my dogs is an escape artist (which is probably how we got him in the first place) so we have to be extra careful with him so I know accidents do happen but its still the owners fault and anything that happens to the dog is the owners fault. In my area loose unaltered dogs are everywhere. People don't want to spend the money to have a dog spayed/neutered and most are farm dogs who are not fenced. I know of people that have shot their own dog/cat because "she keeps running off and getting pregnant" like its the animals fault that this happens. And if there is a loose dog on the property around here a lot people will shoot it on sight even if its not doing anything wrong. I've never really considered taking a dog and having it neutered and sending it back, but it doesn't sound too awful to me. If say the same dog is showing up on your property every day because you have a female dog in heat and the dog is busting through fences/being destructive/harassing your animals etc then I can see that as a possibility I guess. Now if a dog shows up one time maybe even a couple times and you've talked to the owner and know that it was an accident and they are doing their best to keep him contained then I wouldn't agree with taking their dog and neutering it. I can understand the no AC problem and I know where I'm from the humane society wont take animals out of city limits. We've tried taking animals to the shelter that have showed up at our house for days at a time and they just wont take them. What are you supposed to do in those situations? Call the sheriff here and they will tell you to shoot the dog and humane society wont take them. We've really had a lot of problems with stray animals showing up at the house and just not leaving. We have actually re-homed quite a few and kept a few as well but we didn't know the owners of those animals so maybe this is different.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

juliemule said:


> If the dog were here, not claimed, causing destruction, damaging my property, whose fault is that? You think suing is going to do what?
> Its the same fact that the owner of that dog is responsible for the damage it causes to a vehicle or my dog or my house. If that dog is at the clinic and neutered if and when the owner picked it up, I seriously doubt any judge would award any damages to that irresponsible owner, just as if that dog is shot for causing damage here you would not be awarded anything in court. Here anyway. Last I checked neutering was not animal abuse, and that is about the only thing, and rarely then, any lawsuits are won.


If my dog came onto your property, be it as a result of your dog being in heat or not, and caused damage to anything on there, you could sue me for the damages. However, that does NOT give you the legal right to turn around and damage MY "property" by putting it through an unnecessary surgery without my consent, and yes, I very well COULD turn around and counter sue you for it in the area I'm from, so long as there is proof that the dog belongs to me (micro chipping, licence, vet records, etc). And especially if my dog suffers complications due to that surgery? Oh God!


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

If the dog were chipped, tagged, or I knew he belonged to you he wouldn't be neutered unless it was a recurring problem. I guess maybe I should just take them an hour away, they have s rabies control you can drop off dogs, thety kill them in three days. No, I don't think that's fair.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)




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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> . . . . While spaying or neutering isn't always in the animal's best interest, by far most people here should have their pet "fixed" simply on the accidental litter risk. I have no issue with the shelters *and vets offices nagging folks to speuter*. . . . .


Not so with rescue centers, but I take issue with vets offices nagging folks to speuter WITHOUT giving them the full medical facts, both sides. I get TOTALLY disgusted with vets offices that choose to sell only one side of the speuter facts. It undermines my and their relationship as it represents these offices as unethical profit schemers who are willing to misrepresent medical facts and lie to get that profit, and I do let them know that every time I go in with an intact animal and they give me the speuter spiel.

Obviously some of us feel more strongly about this kind of deception than others. Thought I'd put in my two cents.

SOB


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I would never have the balls to chop off someone else's roaming dog's balls, BUT...
> 
> If an animal of mine was loose for any reason, and it came back speutered or declawed or docked or whatever, I would not be "okay" with it, persay; but I would also blame no one but myself. The animal got loose, my fault. The animal could have gotten hit by a car, killed by a coyote, stolen and used as fight bait, but it was neutered instead. Whatever happens to a loose animal, it's _my fault_ because the animal got loose. Sure, I'd be pissed that someone was gutsy enough to do something without my permission to my pet, but I wouldn't raise hell. I'd be more angry with myself. It wouldn't have happened if the animal was contained properly.


All circumstance for me. I've been trying really hard to not victim blame (and I'm not always so good at it) because accidents do happen. And people with dogs that accidentally get loose don't WANT that to happen so I don't feel because it happened they deserve what they get. I would never do any thing elective to any dog that wasn't mine even if I felt it was the right then to do. It's one thing to find a dog, search all over the place for however long you're legally required (here it is only 10 days) and not find a owner so to start making medical decisions. It's another to find an unaltered dog and neuter him immediately because you feel he should be neutered. If my dog went missing for months and then whoever found him ended up connecting with me and they had neutered him, I can't stay I would feel any qualms. 

But there we're going down a long paths of what ifs and the like. 



Finkie_Mom said:


>


Why you make me laugh?


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## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

Willowy said:


> In most rural areas, loose dogs are commonly shot on sight. This is legal; it is your right to do whatever you want to an animal that is on your rural property (in town there are usually bylaws that differ from the rurals and you would have to try to find the owners first). I assume neutering would also fall under that right, but maybe legally it is different. IDK.


You cannot legally neuter someone else's animal. Shooting a stray dog on your property to protect your livestock is legal in rural areas as it should be. I don't believe it's legal to shoot a dog simply for being on your property but that is certainly done/acceptable in rural areas. You would be in serious legal trouble if you neutered someone else's animal. That's destruction of property. Shooting the dog to defend your livestock/pets/family is one thing, catching and neutering quite another. No honest vet would do so.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

jersey_gray said:


> You cannot legally neuter someone else's animal. Shooting a stray dog on your property to protect your livestock is legal in rural areas as it should be. I don't believe it's legal to shoot a dog simply for being on your property but that is certainly done/acceptable in rural areas. You would be in serious legal trouble if you neutered someone else's animal. That's destruction of property. Shooting the dog to defend your livestock/pets/family is one thing, catching and neutering quite another. No honest vet would do so.


 If this is true. . .that's messed up. Something is VERY wrong with the American animal welfare system. Killing a dog is certainly more destruction of property than neutering him is. My dogs are neutered and I don't consider them destroyed. If you killed them, THAT'S destroyed. Neutering is, at worst, minor vandalism. I have NO idea why people who claim to like dogs would think killing a dog is so much more acceptable than getting him the kind of medical care any decent shelter would provide.

And again, yes, in at least several states, it IS legal to kill a loose dog just for being on your property.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

jersey_gray said:


> You would be in serious legal trouble if you neutered someone else's animal.


Considering that people who torture, starve and beat their animals don't get in "serious legal trouble", I really doubt they'd waste the court's time on somebody neutering a dog. Even if it was considered theft, what's a dog's fertility worth? Petty theft, maybe, probably not even a ticket.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

The vets here euthanize after three days. Not all, and many do try to place Adoptable dogs. Most will not take even an injured animal without your agreement to cover the costs. Some of the rabies control still euthanize by auto exhaust fumes. Its really sad. So many unwanted dogs. Cats as well,when I bought my property, there were over thirty cats here. None altered, all wild, and most fIV/leukemia positive. Home owner said they weren't his, county said poison them. I called every shelter within 70 miles, finally was able to trap most, though many were euthanized. One big Tom, sick, and one small female managed to escape the attempts, she had kittens, somewhere in the woods. She sat under the porch and died, I finally found her two remaining kittens that survived. Bottle fed, tested, vaccinated and placed them. Things like this are everyday here, animals are not cared for and they suffer in the end.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Oh and another story, different town. Working for the vet woman brings in a dead shepherd puppy eight months old. Shot in the head. The found the dog, after he was missing, for four days, hanging behind a neighbors barn in a tree with about 5-6 other dogs nearby dead in a ditch. He had his mouth taped, and a yellow rope on his neck. She tried to get a lawyer, no one would touch it. Even worse, not one other person even claimed any other dogs missing in the area.


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## VersaillesGrrl (Jan 29, 2012)

I think it is the responsibility of both parties to make sure their intact dogs are behaved. I do not let my female anywhere without me while she is in heat - while her off leash reliability is impeccable when her hormones are normal, first heat she had she bolted after a scent after jumping out of my car to get to the front door. From the point on, she was leashed even if we were just going to the drive way. My backyard is fenced, but I know that in tact males can/will jump a fence to get to a seasoned bitch. I would not blame the males owner if their dog jumped their 6 foot fence and ran a mile to find my female and then proceeded to climb MY fence and breed to her... if I was responsible, I would have been out with her, so it never would have happened.

I absolutely would not, under any circumstances, neuter someone elses dog. I may have some choice words with the owner if their dog KEPT showing up in my yard, and if they refused to do anything about it I would involve animal control, but to take somebody elses dog and put it through surgery is not right.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> She's so stinking cute, it's true. Haha. Our neighbors thought the whole situation was darling. They told a much sweeter story than I did, and my family couldn't stop laughing about it. I, however, was in tears. I couldn't believe I'd left her outside. Anything could have happened. I'm still sore about it, egh.
> 
> I realize this below wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to reply.
> 
> ...


It's a good thing the family was nice about it, wish e shone was like that . 

We are talking about SPUTERING ... NOT mutilation such as :tail/ear cropping or declawing in cats, IMO that's a whole nuther deal that is not even comparable to sputering & not even relevant. But here is another thought, what about all the dogs that were stranded by Katrina in New Orlens who were rescued by shelters, volunteers, & SPCAs; I'm sure some of them were altered imediately & given their jabs, what if the owner was found after all that do you really think they were mad their dog was "messed with"? I don't think so, I just think they were happy to have them back.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> It's a good thing the family was nice about it, wish e shone was like that .
> 
> We are talking about SPUTERING ... NOT mutilation such as :tail/ear cropping or declawing in cats, IMO that's a whole nuther deal that is not even comparable to sputering & not even relevant. But here is another thought, what about all the dogs that were stranded by Katrina in New Orlens who were rescued by shelters, volunteers, & SPCAs; I'm sure some of them were altered imediately & given their jabs, what if the owner was found after all that do you really think they were mad their dog was "messed with"? I don't think so, I just think they were happy to have them back.


I would be happy my dog was alive, who cares if they were neutered or not.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I remember hearing once awhile back that AC was trying to pass an ordinance that any dog found wandering was to be altered if they were not already. The owners would be able to get the animal back but needed to pay for the altering. Sort of a fine for allowing their dog to roam. Needless to say there were people for and against this proposal. I don't know if anyone is still fighting for it, I have not heard. It would be interesting to see if people would be more careful with their pets knowing they could be altered and that there would be a rather large fine for the "accident."


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> I believe I remember saying that IF your dog has a medical condition that prevents them from having the surgery (& some dogs do ) then those dogs are exempt from this discussion. But if a person didn't do it simply because they didn't want to (for whatever reason ) then I'm sorry but I can't agree with it.
> 
> 
> I'm not condemning anyone I just can't say I agree with that reasoning & my first suggestion will always to be to sputer. We have enough dogs running about unwanted thank you.


I ONLY spayed my current girl out of CONVINIENCE, my next male will most likely NOT be nuetered, I used to have the same outlook as you, but with more recent research indicating that properly cared for dogs that are not desexed have generally longer, healthier lives and run far lower chances of Heart cancer, low Thyroid and Bone cancer (all more prominent than testicular/mammary cancer) I feel that it's MY decision to make that health decision, not someone elses. My next Male will be a SD for my husband, so his health will take precidence.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dogdragoness said:


> It's a good thing the family was nice about it, wish e shone was like that .
> 
> We are talking about SPUTERING ... NOT mutilation such as :tail/ear cropping or declawing in cats, IMO that's a whole nuther deal that is not even comparable to sputering & not even relevant. But here is another thought, what about all the dogs that were stranded by Katrina in New Orlens who were rescued by shelters, volunteers, & SPCAs; I'm sure some of them were altered imediately & given their jabs, what if the owner was found after all that do you really think they were mad their dog was "messed with"? I don't think so, I just think they were happy to have them back.


DD, in many countries that have outlawed Cropping and docking S/N is also outlawed, both are elective surgeries and both are considered mutilation. Sorry, but my belief is that elective surgery decisions are to left to the OWNER only, I don't care if it's S/N, cropping, docking, declawing, dew claw removal or a tattoo.


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

I feel like many of you are getting overly upset over the "sputering without consent" issue. Unless I missed something, I haven't read a single post saying that if someones intact male was on their property for an hour that the property owner would immediately take them to the vet and have them altered. If your intact male was in my yard for days or weeks at a time we would have a serious problem. Would I take them and pay for the procedure? Hell no. But you better believe I'd call animal control. Over and over if that's what it took. And if your pet got altered because you were too irresponsible to fix the issue of him or her getting out repeatedly, you would have no one to blame but yourself. Go ahead a get a lawyer. Better yet, get on judge Judy so I can watch and then laugh at your stupidity.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

melundie said:


> Better yet, get on judge Judy so I can watch and then laugh at your stupidity.


Oh man, I can't stand that woman. I don't say that about many but watching her makes my blood pressure go up and that takes a lot. I get that she is dealing with some really ignorant people but sometimes she is just a witch for the sake of being a witch. Ugh! Alright, back on topic now. Sorry.


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## melundie (Aug 2, 2011)

Inga said:


> Oh man, I can't stand that woman. I don't say that about many but watching her makes my blood pressure go up and that takes a lot. I get that she is dealing with some really ignorant people but sometimes she is just a witch for the sake of being a witch. Ugh! Alright, back on topic now. Sorry.


I whole-heartedly agree. I don't honestly watch the show, but I just think that would be an interesting case to watch.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

I would have serious issues if someone found Caeda if she was missing for a couple of hours (which would be MY fault, even if it was an "accident") and spayed her without my consent. As it turns out, she HAD to be spayed earlier than we wanted because of that male that never went away. We wanted to wait at least until she was a full year old to spay her. The decision was made because we couldn't even take her outside within 10 feet of our house without being accosted by the male that wouldn't leave. The choice was: pregnancy and an unintended litter that could have caused a barrage of problems because of her young age or spay her immediately after her heat (thankfully we were able to wait that long). We had considered looking further into her lines to see if she was in fact pure bred (which I doubt), had she been we would have appreciated at least the opportunity to consider breeding her when she was older. We probably wouldn't have but either way we had to spay her early. 

On the other hand, that male, he keeps coming back. His owners have been called repeatedly, he was taken to the shelter twice I believe AND the landlord talked to the owners and said that if their dog kept hanging around and being a problem it might get shot. The dog has still showed up many times despite all of this. I also found out recently his home is actually across the highway, so every time he comes here he is risking getting hit. If neutering him would guarantee he would roam much less I'd be happy to take him in and neuter him on my dime. The sad part is that owners with a dog that roams that much probably wouldn't even notice.....


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

I would think it would be very hard to find ANY vet who would accept an 'emergency' neuter on a dog that you suddenly brought in. They're usually smart enough to know that, plus most would want shots done a few weeks before the dog was done, so I don't think it's possible to do that legally.

In most places there is a 'hold' period before the dog is considered property of the shelter etc. and you'd have to check the laws on that one. Here the dog/cat must be in the shelter system (or rescue system) for 3 days I think, before they are considered strays and then can be altered. You can't just hide the dog in your basement for that time then say it's yours, it has to be a separate and public group, so there is proof that someone was looking/advertising the dog/cat was lost. Like our one cat, was given to us by the neighbor of the family who moved away. I've been in contact with the original owner, who said she'd write a letter to the vet, but so far nothing. So 'officially' even though he's been here for months, he's not 'our' cat. I am going to get a friend with a rescue to put him on as a rescue and then 'adopt' him so that we do have paperwork, but it's happened where people have found a dog, kept it for years, then the original owners come along and claim it and take it back. It was on a rescue list a while ago how they'd gotten in a dog, fostered it, adopted it out and then years later had to give it back to the owner, who's wife had dumped the dog. Ex wife by then but still...

Also near here (on the 'shoot the dog' thing) there was a big stink about how 60 or so dogs had gone missing/been shot in this one small area, the people living there all lived by the 'we're in the country, our dogs should get to run free' mantra. One of the farms in the area raises elk and deer, and after loosing a few animals to stray dogs and not being compensated (I think the story was he caught the dog in the act, took the time to find the owner, and told them how much the damage was and they refused to pay, something like that) he started shooting the dogs. In some cases people have lost multiple dogs on different occasions, all in an uproar.... but they won't start leashing up their dogs. The story was in the paper and the comments online were pretty much 'then don't let your dogs go chasing deer and livestock'....

I've had a few neutered/spayed dogs wandering and coming here. They're not all after a date, some are bored, some like garbage, some just like to go for a walk and their owners don't do it for them. I wouldn't say neutering would solve the wandering, maybe taking some legs off though.... (KIDDING).... 

Where we are there was at one time a lot of dogs wandering, I think the first year I caught 5 different dogs. It has gotten better, but now I'm at the point that if I can get the dog in and safe, I do so, and then look and see if anyone is looking for their dog. If not, the next day they go to the spca and I'll post a sign saying their dog is there. I did look for owners at first but most didn't seem too thankful for me doing so (in one case the dog lived a block away, and got out at NOON, I brought her in at about 1 and the owners didn't come or look for her till that evening - and they were there when she got let out!!!).


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

When I first moved to where I live now, there seemed to be a lot of wandering dogs. Mostly people who moved out of the city and thought because they were now in the "country" there dogs could just run loose. Over the last year, they seemed to have all mostly disappeared. My sister and I were remarking on it last week that we had not seen any loose dogs. She usually saw quite a few wandering in the fields behind her home.

Spoke too soon. Last night I heard Susie bark and looked out (she was in my fenced backyard) and stray dog had wandered up my driveway. I have never seen this dog before, looked like a Husky cross. He just wandered around down by my barn, peed on everything and left. Hope he is not going to be a frequent visitor.

The last stray dog belonged to my neighbor across the street, he was a Border Collie x Pit. They did finally put up a fence and had him neutered. He then started jumping out of the pen they had him in but they moved shortly after so no problem there.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Here you don't have to shoemaker ownership for any animal. You can walk in, say this is my dog Sammy, they put it right in the computer. There are so many strays that the vets don't care. Not many take dogs in for anything here. If one gets run over, it either lives or dies. Maybe some will go in, but the vets don't refuse to treat, or spay a dog that hasn't had vaccinations. They do recommend them, but so many people are still of the mind set of not spending money on a dog. About the only rung most wont do, is put a dog on Heartworm prevention without prior testing. Though some still will. Many that are tested and are positive are not treated but euthanized instead.
If I went I to most clinics here, with a dog that had been at my place for 3 days or more, the vet will even comment about it being s stray,ask if we want vaccine. Or spay. 
There is a different mindset when you have many stray dogs. Even those with owners will flat tell you it just showed up one day. They may feed it, but many times that's as far as it goes.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I have NO idea why people who claim to like dogs would think killing a dog is so much more acceptable than getting him the kind of medical care any decent shelter would provide.


It _would_ be crazy to suggest that shooting a dog would be "better" than neutering him. Who here said that? 

I know that I, personally, am not talking about what's more morally right, or what I would prefer done to my own dog (if I were somehow irresponsible enough to let it roam for days). I've been talking about what's legal. But this entire discussion devolved into hypothetical situations a long time ago and is pretty pointless now. If some male dog shows up on a poster's property and hangs around for 10 straight days, maybe then we can all discuss what to do with him.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Canaqua said:


> Wow, this whole discussion is like a microcosm/metaphore for American society at large! We could extrapolate to include abortion and birth control for humans. Accidental pregnancy is often seen as the female's fault/responsibility...just because she is the one left "holding the bag" if it happens. The whole thing is a bit misogynistic, like some human policies and attitudes..."lock up your bitch in the house because my intact male might escape" = "girls/women should dress in mu mus and never go out, boys/men can't help themselves".


I think my eyes just rolled out of their head.




> Non-issue for me, personally, because my pets are all neutered and I supervise them. *I* would not put a bitch in heat outside in a fenced yard, because I wouldn't put any dog outside unsupervised in a fenced yard, but that doesn't mean it's fair that no one can, just in case a loose intact male is running wild and jumping fences. If the bitch was loose too, I'd say "too bad, so sad", but, given one dog secured and one not, it's the owner of the loose dog's fault.


The thing is, basing your own behavior on what you think other people SHOULD do rarely ends in anything but disappointment and doesn't usually get you what you want. If your goal is for your intact bitch to not get pregnant, and you leave her unattended in your fenced yard or on your 5 acres or whatever based on how you think other people SHOULD act, well... good luck with that. The real world is not hypothetical land, where people act perfectly all the time and no mistakes ever happen. The real world is the real world where people make mistakes and screw up and take time and multiple attempts to problem solve things like fence jumping and some are just plain jerks, so I choose to make my decisions and base my behavior on how people DO act and I consider that MY responsibility as I understand the consequences of not doing so. I can't control other people's behavior, but I can control my own.

Yes, it means sometimes I have to take up some people's slack, and that sucks, and I wish everyone was perfect, but you know what? I'm not perfect either, and I guarantee you that you and I and everyone else reading this and posting in this thread has fallen and will fall from the grace of perfection and someone else has had to and will have to put up with our screw ups and take up our slack, too. 

Keep in mind that I'm not excusing a pattern of willfully irresponsible behavior. But the assumption that a loose, intact dog is AUTOMATICALLY the result of irresponsible behavior is completely ridiculous. There but for the grace of god go every one of us, I'm going to treat other people and their dog how I would want to be treated if I accidentally left the gate open or made some other mistake. Which includes by the way, if my dog is a repeat offender, someone actually coming and talking to me about the problem. Because if you choose to live in an area where the cultural norm is letting your dog run loose, a lot of people there aren't even going to realize that it bothers anyone.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> LOL, I would like to see how that would go. About 50/50, I think, depending on the judge. I think, in most states, if your dog is on someone else's property for 10 days, he is legally theirs. Shelters usually have only a 3-day stray hold before the dog is neutered and put up for adoption (or killed). It would take me longer than that to get a neuter appointment. If you hadn't claimed him by then, well, not much else to be done and legally a very shaky position.


Laws vary by municipality, but around here the 10 day hold does NOT apply to individuals. It applies to shelters, boarding, animal control, veterinarians, or other defined entities. So as an individual you can't grab a loose dog, keep in on your property for 10 days, and then rejoice that the "stray hold" is over. You also have an obligation to try to contact the owner or turn the animal over to an acceptable entity, where after a 10 day hold the animal is considered abandoned if no one attempts to find or claim it. 

So legally there is no shaky position whatsoever. If someone finds out that you, as an individual, kept their dog without attempting to find an owner or turning it into a legally proper shelter/AC for stray hold and then claimed it as your own, you'd really have no legal defense. If you altered the dog without their consent, you'd have no legal defense.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> I don't think people understand the "no shelters" part. There are no shelters in the area! None! That means zero!


In many rural areas without local shelters or no AC facility/shelter, there is a veterinary clinic designated as the holding facility for AC. It just takes a couple of phone calls to figure out which one.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The shelters only hold animals for 3 days, so I don't think the 10-day hold applies to them. It was my understanding that it applied to a stray animal you found. I think you do have to make a "good faith effort" to find an owner, but I don't know what that entails legally. If there is no "acceptable entity" to turn the animals over to (or all the entities will kill the animal), all you can do is hold them yourself, make a few calls to the closest neighbors, put up a flyer at the grocery store.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

melundie said:


> I feel like many of you are getting overly upset over the "sputering without consent" issue. Unless I missed something, I haven't read a single post saying that if someones intact male was on their property for an hour that the property owner would immediately take them to the vet and have them altered. If your intact male was in my yard for days or weeks at a time we would have a serious problem. Would I take them and pay for the procedure? Hell no. But you better believe I'd call animal control. Over and over if that's what it took. And if your pet got altered because you were too irresponsible to fix the issue of him or her getting out repeatedly, you would have no one to blame but yourself. Go ahead a get a lawyer. Better yet, get on judge Judy so I can watch and then laugh at your stupidity.


If you call animal control and a proper stray hold is observed, my pet becomes legal property of AC and they are legally entitled to alter it. If I haven't even made an effort to check ACs and shelters within the stray hold (10 days here) and I eventually end up with my altered pet back, yea that's on me. BUT, that is a COMPLETELY different scenario than an individual illegally taking possession of my dog and making the decision to alter it without my permission. 

Dogs fall under property law. How we feel about how responsible or irresponsible someone is, or what the moral high ground is, has nothing to do with the legal issues. Individual citizens are not legally entitled to make the same kinds of decisions that ACs and shelters are. Honestly there are a lot of things being thrown around that really have nothing to do with the legality of one private individual to make the decision to alter another private individual's dog.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Willowy said:


> The shelters only hold animals for 3 days, so I don't think the 10-day hold applies to them. It was my understanding that it applied to a stray animal you found. I think you do have to make a "good faith effort" to find an owner, but I don't know what that entails legally. If there is no "acceptable entity" to turn the animals over to (or all the entities will kill the animal), all you can do is hold them yourself, make a few calls to the closest neighbors, put up a flyer at the grocery store.


Are you basing this on your reading of your city/county ordinances? Have you spoken with the sheriff or AC to see if there is a veterinary clinic that acts as the holding facility for AC?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sassafras said:


> In many rural areas without local shelters or no AC facility/shelter, there is a veterinary clinic designated as the holding facility for AC. It just takes a couple of phone calls to figure out which one.


 Hmm. I know my vet doesn't, and he's the only one in town. He'll take stray cats and find them homes, but he does not have facilities to keep dogs. The police station has 2 kennels, but only for dogs found in town. If you live outside city limits, they won't do anything.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I don't normally do this, but I just got off the phone with my vet to ask her about this particular issue and what the laws were regarding it. This is what she told me as far as the laws go for my area:

If the animal has been at large for more then 2 weeks with no obvious identification (microchipping, rabies tag, license tag, identification tag...all of which my dog has), then that animal can be claimed by you and taken to a vet to have them spayed/neutered. If the animal DOES have identification, you have to call animal control so they can try to locate the owners. Whatever happens there is up to them, but they as animal control have that legal right. But YOU can not take them to the vet and have them altered on your own. It's extremely illegal, and if the owners find out who did it and prove it (with a little calling around, it wouldn't be impossible to find out), there can be a lawsuit. It doesn't matter if that dog has done damage to property. That's an entirely different issue and does NOT give you the legal right to damage to MY "property" without me, the owner, being okay with it.

EDIT: I also wanted to add that AC is the first person you should contact ANYWAYS, no matter how long the animal has been there or weather it has identification or not. Even if it were legal to alter someone elses pet without their permission, how is altering them and then dropping them back off in the neighborhood to roam going to fix the problem? yeah, they can't impregnate another dog, but they can STILL get into trouble and possibly killed.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Crantastic said:


> It _would_ be crazy to suggest that shooting a dog would be "better" than neutering him. Who here said that?


Yeah, the general vibe I'm getting is "if you have to shoot a loose dog, oh well, you do what you have to do to protect your pets and family" but "neuter him? OMG, that's terrible!".


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Willowy said:


> Yeah, the general vibe I'm getting is "if you have to shoot a loose dog, oh well, you do what you have to do to protect your pets and family" but "neuter him? OMG, that's terrible!".


The "general vibe," as interpreted by one person, is not the same thing as people actually saying that. If I actually meant that, I'd say it, and I'm sure most of the people arguing the legality of neutering someone else's pet without their permission would actually say it, too.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

RCloud said:


> If the animal has been at large for more then 2 weeks with no obvious identification (microchipping, rabies tag, license tag, identification tag...all of which my dog has), then that animal can be claimed by you and taken to a vet to have them spayed/neutered.


Um, yeah, I've never seen a free-roaming farm dog with any kind of ID (not sure if a microchip can be considered "obvious" but I suppose you'd have them scanned when you went to the vet)--supposedly collars are too dangerous for free-roaming dogs. I kind of thought that went without saying but I guess not.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Um, yeah, I've never seen a free-roaming farm dog with any kind of ID (not sure if a microchip can be considered "obvious" but I suppose you'd have them scanned when you went to the vet)--supposedly collars are too dangerous for free-roaming dogs. I kind of thought that went without saying but I guess not.


.......How is that "too dangerous"? >.>


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess they think a collar will get caught on a fence or a tree or something. I've just been told a zillion times that farm dogs don't wear collars because they're "too dangerous".


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

That's funny. I grew up on a farm and our dogs all wore collars and we never had issues with them getting stuck on things. But then again of course our dogs never left our property without us.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

RCloud said:


> But then again of course our dogs never left our property without us.


I hear that ALL THE TIME, and usually from the people whose dogs are all over the place. If the dogs were left unconfined when nobody was home. . .they probably did leave the property.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I hear that ALL THE TIME, and usually from the people whose dogs are all over the place. If the dogs were left unconfined when nobody was home. . .they probably did leave the property.


I do feel you on the wandering dog issue, and believe very strongly a dog should not be allowed to roam, weather it's fixed or not. The last area we lived in was a very rural country area in southern KY, where there were no leash laws, and we had major issues with our neighbor's dog roaming onto our property and starting shit with our dogs. This dog was spayed, yet was still causing issues, where as Marlin, who is still intact, has NEVER wandered off and caused problems, partially because he has no desire to and partially because I won't let him.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Wow, the northern states are sure different than the southern ones. There are no vet clinics that hold dogs here either. We do have a Humana society, but they will not take in dogs as they remain full. We have AC only in the city, and the dogs there are killed in three days. So the sheriff's department will not deal with a dog unless it is trying to or already has attacked a person,then it is killed on site, regardless of it having a collar, the humane society is full always,.no AC, and no vet clinics that takes in stray, whats left?s


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

South Dakota is a Northern state, don't let the name fool ya . 

I think it's more of a rurals vs city thing than a geographic thing. Apparently if you live in the rurals, letting your dog run loose is a Fundamental American Right and I don't think anything will change that.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

RCloud said:


> That's funny. I grew up on a farm and our dogs all wore collars and we never had issues with them getting stuck on things. But then again of course our dogs never left our property without us.


I mostly grew up on a farm too, and our dogs did not commonly leave the property. I know they did sometimes though as we did get the occasional call from a neighbor who had cattle and who one dog in particular took to bothering (my spaniel who then had to be confined when we were gone).

That was on a section of land.

Unfortunately, now, many rural people believe three acres of land is large enough to leave a loose dog on, cuz after all their parents or grandparents did that on the farm.

There is just no comparison to leaving a dog out on three acres and leaving them to explore/guard on a full section, but these people can't seem to get that. With more than 50 acreages developed in a subdivision beside my property over the last 15 years I can't tell you how many have been absolutely ignorant about the responsibilities of dog ownership. 

"Let's move to the country and get a dog to protect the place, har har". With many dogs they can skate by, but with some others it is a problem.

Fortunately they usually 'get it' after their first dog. Unfortunately we had a toddler pay for this ignorance with over 100 stitches to his neck/cheek 8 years back. The dog paid for her owner's stupidity with her life.

And I agree, it seems to be a rural vs. city thing, here anyway. Most in the cities and even small towns keep their dogs contained, usually because of by-laws.

SOB


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

juliemule said:


> Wow, the northern states are sure different than the southern ones. There are no vet clinics that hold dogs here either. We do have a Humana society, but they will not take in dogs as they remain full. We have AC only in the city, and the dogs there are killed in three days. So the sheriff's department will not deal with a dog unless it is trying to or already has attacked a person,then it is killed on site, regardless of it having a collar, the humane society is full always,.no AC, and no vet clinics that takes in stray, whats left?s


Hmm, funny, I'm from a Southern state (MS) and there certainly was AC in the county areas. I guess it depends which county you're in, I know in TX one AC may cover three or four counties and really only get involved if there is an extreame case (large number of animals being neglected or abused) in rural areas (Houston SPCA comes to mind as I know they cover a good portion of SE Texas)


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

juliemule said:


> Unfortunately these aren't house pets I am talking about.


then they should be spayed or neutered.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I also wanted to chime in that I'm ORIGINALLY from NH, but that I'm currently living in northern AZ right now. My husband and I do a LOT of traveling around the country, and don't stay in an area for more then a season. I'm sure there's different laws for different areas in the U.S. depending on who's in charge and how bad the stray pet population is. But yeah, it's not just a northern thing.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I guess they think a collar will get caught on a fence or a tree or something. I've just been told a zillion times that farm dogs don't wear collars because they're "too dangerous".


 I find this interesting....the trainer we've been going to says she won't put a collar on her dog unless they are going out. She said they can easily get caught in a crate too. I haven't see Caeda ever come close to getting her collar caught in her crate. She usually roams the livingroom/kitchen during the day out of her crate and we leave her collar on....just on that off chance that the landlord comes by to look in and she gets out, or we come home and for some reason she runs out. She's chipped and tattooed but I feel a little more comfortable with the idea of her somehow getting out if she had her collar with her ID tags. I dunno that's just me. 
When the big lab was hanging around our house I was glad to see he had a collar on, since on the second night I put a note on it (though he didn't go home and if he did nobody looked close enough to see the note). If he'd had ID on the collar he would have been home a couple hours after we first saw him!


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

InkedMarie said:


> then they should be spayed or neutered.


 Then where do you suggest getting working dogs from? 
All of the dogs get to come inside. Keeping them in a.house, and crating them, then an hour walk in thews evening just doesn't cut it. It takes several hours a day of training, exercise, and work to satisfy them. That would be like taking a high drive working border collie and keeping them crated. These dogs would eat the walls if left in too long, some that come in to train would wreck a.house period.

I guess Memphis and Nashville have better AC. I know Jackson and larger cities have officers for this, so maybe it is just rural areas.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

juliemule said:


> Then where do you suggest getting working dogs from?
> All of the dogs get to come inside. Keeping them in a.house, and crating them, then an hour walk in thews evening just doesn't cut it. It takes several hours a day of training, exercise, and work to satisfy them. That would be like taking a high drive working border collie and keeping them crated. These dogs would eat the walls if left in too long, some that come in to train would wreck a.house period.
> 
> I guess Memphis and Nashville have better AC. I know Jackson and larger cities have officers for this, so maybe it is just rural areas.


I assume you can choose to breed working dogs, maybe not. If someone has outdoor dogs that are not spayed or neutered then to me, they're irresponsible.


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