# Bladder stones!!!!!!! Vet says it's from feeding raw.



## Derek S (Oct 27, 2012)

Took my little girl in today for UTI follow up, x-ray showed two HUGE bladder stones. I asked how long it would take to get that huge (I'll try and get the x-rays and post them). He said could be less than a month! I started feeding raw about 2-3 months now, 3 other dogs all UA tested negative for crystals, no symptoms. 

Is it possible for dogs to get "TOO MUCH" protein? He said this was most likely the cause. We still have to get the stones back for analysis so we aren't sure if they are struvite, calcium, or silica. If she is getting "too much" protein, does this mean she needs more___________? Carbs? Fruits, veggies? I don't get it.

Any raw feeders have issues with bladder/kidney stones in your dogs?


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

From what I understand it is really unsure why these stones develop. We have had many cases and none of them have fed their dog raw. Male cats are prone to these sorts of issues, and out of the dozens of them that have developed this none of them ate raw. So for a vet to tell you its from feeding raw in my opinion would be strictly speculation. I asked the vet I work for recently and he just got back from a seminar on this subject and he said basically a lot of talk but they have no hard evidence to put a finger on the cause or causes.
Speculations include..genetic predisposition, the concentration of the stone constituents in the urine, bacterial infections, and urine PH to name a few. But feeding raw? If that was the case it would be a huge breakthrough, because then they would finally be able to link diet to the developing of these stones. which has not happened. so I think your vet is opinionated and possibly thinks poorly of a raw diet.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Max has had oxalate crystals form in stale urine but that is it.

The usual ones are struvite which usually form when urine goes alkaline during an UTI and oxalate which seem to be genetic and are associated with acidic urine. Struvites are treated by getting rid of the infection which can be a drawn out process and oxalates are treated by feeding low oxalate foods which is what raw is! If the stones are of the less common types you may need to change the diet.

Do read the articles here on stones. http://www.dogaware.com/articles/wdjcalciumoxalates.html


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Some dogs and cats just have a genetic predisposition to forming stones. High blood calcium levels, which could be caused by excessive calcium in the diet could contribute to the formation of calcium oxalate stones - but you'd really have to be messing up your ratios of bone to everything else in the diet in order to cause high enough calcium levels for that IMO. And higher protein levels can be associated with certain types of stones - but because there is so much moisture/water in raw, again, I'd be surprised if you could achieve those kinds of levels if you're doing it properly.

In any case, until the stones are analyzed to see what type they are, you can't really say much about the risk factors and mitigating them.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Raw can be beneficial for most kidney problems actually. Just seems like a typical case of the vet blaming raw because he doesn't like it.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

am with boxerlover876,, I got the letchure when I told my long term vet I was switching to raw.. Then I laughed and asked if he really believed what he just said, because that would be like saying we should feed our kids fruit pop tarts as more nutritional because the box said it was garuntee nutrition instead of just feeding the fresh fruit...


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## Derek S (Oct 27, 2012)

Thanks for the replies. I really hope it isn't from feeding raw, the other dogs are doing great on it and the little girl is going to suffer if I have to feed her a special diet. Vet said it was struvite stones, more definitive once we get the test results back.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Dogs can absolutely be fed too much protein for their bodies to process. We don't typically think of that as being possible, since wild dogs survived on eating raw meat only, right? 

I thought the same thing. I started off my puppy on a very very high quality high animal protein dry food diet. After about 3 weeks on that food, she was showing signs of a bladder infection or UTI. After having her urine tested at the vet, she had crystals forming in her urine (the protein was being deposited and building up). This could have quickly escalated to kidney/bladder stones. I switched her to a food with lower protein content and her symptoms disappeared. I have also done TONS of research and talked to multiple vets/nutritionists. I had her retested and everything was normal a couple of weeks later. 

Bottom line, all dogs are different. Feeding them too much protein for their body to process puts undue stress on their kidneys and can cause more problems later on. Best of luck!


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> I thought the same thing. I started off my puppy on a very very high quality high animal protein dry food diet. After about 3 weeks on that food, she was showing signs of a bladder infection or UTI. After having her urine tested at the vet, she had crystals forming in her urine (the protein was being deposited and building up). This could have quickly escalated to kidney/bladder stones. I switched her to a food with lower protein content and her symptoms disappeared. I have also done TONS of research and talked to multiple vets/nutritionists. I had her retested and everything was normal a couple of weeks later


not really the same concept as raw though. one of my dogs has the same issue, she cant eat a kibble higher then 30% protien because it causes bladder issues for her. but in kibble that protien in on a dry matter basis, its very concentrated, which can cause certain dogs issues. that same dog of mine that has issue with the kibble over 30% protien, eats raw with no trouble whatsoever.


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

I always thought because of the water content found in raw meat, protein levels are actually lower in a Raw diet than in that of a commercial diet. For example: If you have a Raw diet and a commercial diet with the same ingredients the Raw diet would have say 18% protein whereas a commercial would have say 28% because of the way the commercial diet is processed and the ingredients being concentrated.. Or am I misunderstanding???


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

I didn't mean to be confusing - the point of my post was just to say that through my personal experience (which I understand is different from your situation) I have learned that a diet can contain too much protein and each dog is different in how it can process that protein level. I hope you are able to find a solution!


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

quality vs quanity ,, we are looking at the source of protien that makes up higher numbers ..

.. agree you always have to feed blance


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Raw protein is much more digestible than cooked meals and the like. Kibble is also extremely dry. Not enough water getting to the kidneys to flush them is bad. I think the water in raw helps keep the kidneys functioning well. 

@RedGermanPinscher
You really can't compare wet weight raw to kibble. If you dried out raw meat you would have an extremely high protein level. Whenever you look at wet raw add the protein level and moisture level together (fat level also of its all meat) that's about how much proteins percentage is really in there. It's bound to be close to 100.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

boxerlover876 said:


> Raw protein is much more digestible than cooked meals and the like. Kibble is also extremely dry. Not enough water getting to the kidneys to flush them is bad. I think the water in raw helps keep the kidneys functioning well.
> 
> @RedGermanPinscher
> You really can't compare wet weight raw to kibble. If you dried out raw meat you would have an extremely high protein level. Whenever you look at wet raw add the protein level and moisture level together (fat level also of its all meat) that's about how much proteins percentage is really in there. It's bound to be close to 100.


I don't care about %, I care how much of what goes into the dog - just makes more sense to me. On a super premium kibble that is 38% protein Max would get 150 grams for about 600 calories which would have about 57 grams of protein. On his raw diet Max gets about 10 ounces a day for about that same 600 calories and gets about 60 grams of protein. 150 grams is about 5.3 ounces.

If the stones are struvite then very likely the cause was high pH of the urine which allows the crystals to precipitate out and usually the high pH was caused by UTI. Not diet. What is her urine's pH? Has she ever had it tested before? There is such a thing as sterile struvites and one of the main tools is monitoring the pH. If it rises then take action.

I am concerned about Max having concentrated urine and that allowing crystals to form so do add water to his raw dinner just in case.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> Dogs can absolutely be fed too much protein for their bodies to process. We don't typically think of that as being possible, since wild dogs survived on eating raw meat only, right?
> 
> I thought the same thing. I started off my puppy on a very very high quality high animal protein dry food diet. After about 3 weeks on that food, she was showing signs of a bladder infection or UTI. After having her urine tested at the vet, she had crystals forming in her urine (the protein was being deposited and building up). This could have quickly escalated to kidney/bladder stones. I switched her to a food with lower protein content and her symptoms disappeared. I have also done TONS of research and talked to multiple vets/nutritionists. I had her retested and everything was normal a couple of weeks later.
> 
> Bottom line, all dogs are different. Feeding them too much protein for their body to process puts undue stress on their kidneys and can cause more problems later on. Best of luck!


Lol this is a perfect example of the type of anecdotal evidence that misleads people online.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I was talking about the quality of the protien source (raw meat vs grains fillers mixed with meat) makes a difference


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## RedGermanPinscher (Jun 22, 2012)

boxerlover876 said:


> Raw protein is much more digestible than cooked meals and the like. Kibble is also extremely dry. Not enough water getting to the kidneys to flush them is bad. I think the water in raw helps keep the kidneys functioning well.
> 
> @RedGermanPinscher
> You really can't compare wet weight raw to kibble. If you dried out raw meat you would have an extremely high protein level. Whenever you look at wet raw add the protein level and moisture level together (fat level also of its all meat) that's about how much proteins percentage is really in there. It's bound to be close to 100.


Thanks for the clarification...


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