# What am I missing for Rally-O?



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

For those of you competing in Rally, what commands are necessary? 

I've read the signs page of the rule book hundreds of times and there were a lot I didn't understand..  

I _think_ Frag has all the necesseties down, but it's hard to tell with some of the signs. That's why I want to get into a class (to help myself!) but I don't know if I'll be able to before we enter our first trial.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

DJEtzel said:


> For those of you competing in Rally, what commands are necessary?
> 
> I've read the signs page of the rule book hundreds of times and there were a lot I didn't understand..
> 
> I _think_ Frag has all the necesseties down, but it's hard to tell with some of the signs. That's why I want to get into a class (to help myself!) but I don't know if I'll be able to before we enter our first trial.


\


Sit/down/stand, wait or stay/come/finish right or left
Helpful is hurry (speed up) get back (slow down) finger targeting and good pivots (though you don't have pivots in AKC Novice, it helps your dog get smartly to heel) Be sure you read the rules and understand the signs. Be sure you understand enough about handling and foot work that you don't mess your dog up.
Honestly, if this is your first type of competition I would make a point to get in a good class BEFORE you enter your first trial. You are young, your dog is young. There is no huge hurry. Better to go in with confidence that you and Frag know what you are doing than end up with that old deer in the headlights situation that makes stuff like this very unfun for the dogs.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

I think Pawzk9 covered most of it, but it also depends a bit on what venue you are doing rally in...any idea?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> For those of you competing in Rally, what commands are necessary?
> 
> I've read the signs page of the rule book hundreds of times and there were a lot I didn't understand..
> 
> I _think_ Frag has all the necesseties down, but it's hard to tell with some of the signs. That's why I want to get into a class (to help myself!) but I don't know if I'll be able to before we enter our first trial.


I was horrible in rally tonight, but here's what I would do differently if I could.

Have you been to the rally website and looked at all the signs? (I can't tell if this is what you mean by the signs rule book or not). 

Make SURE your dog knows where heel position _really_ is. Can he "find heel" from a front, from slightly behind you, when you move to the right? If he can find heel no matter where you're at and where he's at, he's probably got a good understanding of where heel is. 
If you haven't already, get to a trial (or 2, or 3, or 10, etc) before you answer to make sure he can comfortably warm up in that environment. (This was my HUGE mistake with Auz). I don't usually work ring-side, but I work on the "outskirts" of the crating area and occasionally closer. 
Ill think of more later, after the others have posted


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Sit/down/stand, wait or stay/come/finish right or left
> Helpful is hurry (speed up) get back (slow down) finger targeting and good pivots (though you don't have pivots in AKC Novice, it helps your dog get smartly to heel) Be sure you read the rules and understand the signs. Be sure you understand enough about handling and foot work that you don't mess your dog up.
> Honestly, if this is your first type of competition I would make a point to get in a good class BEFORE you enter your first trial. You are young, your dog is young. There is no huge hurry. Better to go in with confidence that you and Frag know what you are doing than end up with that old deer in the headlights situation that makes stuff like this very unfun for the dogs.


Alrighty, well we have that stuff down.. (I don't know if I have enough understanding of handling and footwork, any help there?) I _want_ to get into a class, but don't know if it will be possible. I only have one opportunity to trial Frag anytime soon, so for him and I, I want to take it. I was thinking about going to a show this weekend to watch and see how hard it looks to me. I may be completely underestimating myself, or I may be doing the opposite. 



Shaina said:


> I think Pawzk9 covered most of it, but it also depends a bit on what venue you are doing rally in...any idea?


AKC. 



LazyGRanch713 said:


> I was horrible in rally tonight, but here's what I would do differently if I could.
> 
> Have you been to the rally website and looked at all the signs? (I can't tell if this is what you mean by the signs rule book or not).
> 
> ...


Yes, I've read all of the signs. The beginning ones I undestand easily, but towards the end I get a little lost. 

I would probably have to work with Frag a little more to find Heel better. He generally finds it well with a command (front to finish, etc) but not on his own with the Heel command. I have not proofed the verbal cue for Heel. I was of the understanding that dogs didn't have to be in a perfect heel during rally, is that wrong? I am building up to an obedience competition style heel and do not want to muttle the command by making a less than perfect action Heel. 

I definitely WANT to get to a trial beforehand, but I don't know if there are many (if any) within driving distance I can get to before the trial that is local that I'm hoping to enter him in. I can bring him to warm up there? (as you can see, I know very little of show ettiquette and style)

Thanks for the start guys, I've found a bit to work on, at least for him.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> Yes, I've read all of the signs. The beginning ones I undestand easily, but towards the end I get a little lost.
> 
> I would probably have to work with Frag a little more to find Heel better. He generally finds it well with a command (front to finish, etc) but not on his own with the Heel command. I have not proofed the verbal cue for Heel. I was of the understanding that dogs didn't have to be in a perfect heel during rally, is that wrong? I am building up to an obedience competition style heel and do not want to muttle the command by making a less than perfect action Heel.


If you have signs in particular that you don't understand, you could always post them and ask. My forte is APDT rally which is a bit different but sign implementation is essentially the same...the difference is how early you see some of the signs.

For APDT rally the heel is a competition heel and you get dinged for lagged, forging, tight lead, crooked sits, etc., just as you would in obedience...the difference being that you can "help" them to some extent verbally, provided you don't cross the line into double-commanding. I think, from what I've heard from friends that do APDT, AKC, and UKC rally, that AKC is more lax in this regard so you may have more leeway.


And wow it must be early...I went really comma-happy in this post lol


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I teach AKC rally where I train so if you do have questions on particular signs...post which signs they are. I'm sure with all of us, we can figure it out.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

For Rally Novice only the first 30 signs count. Some are self explanatory.. and the dog is on leash. You can talk to the dog but no food in the ring (in your pockets or on your person). Leash must be slack. 

One thing he does need is an about turn and the German Left About turn (dog goes right and you turn about to the left). He also needs a left about staying on your left. There is a rule too about how you enter the weave cones.. I forget which side.. but it is important (first cone is always on your left I think). 

I hated Rally O class so much that I do not remember much.. but it is more than reading the signs and doing them.. there are technical things (like the weave cones) that you need to know. 

Going to a trial and watching and asking questions of competitors (after they are done) is really valuable.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

You enter the cones with them on your left (just like regular agility weave poles).

And by first 30 signs, Elana is referring to the signs in the AKC booklet/rules for Rally.. there are usually around 20 signs on a course I believe.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> For Rally Novice only the first 30 signs count. Some are self explanatory.. and the dog is on leash. You can talk to the dog but no food in the ring (in your pockets or on your person). Leash must be slack.
> 
> One thing he does need is an about turn and the German Left About turn (dog goes right and you turn about to the left). He also needs a left about staying on your left. There is a rule too about how you enter the weave cones.. I forget which side.. but it is important (first cone is always on your left I think).
> 
> ...


Good point on the left about - it confuses a lot of people. So does the spiral (many people try to weave through it or get lost in it) And yes, on the weaves, first cone is always at the dog's left shoulder.



MissMutt said:


> You enter the cones with them on your left (just like regular agility weave poles).
> 
> And by first 30 signs, Elana is referring to the signs in the AKC booklet/rules for Rally.. there are usually around 20 signs on a course I believe.


In APDT there may be around 20 signs in Novice (but often there are a few signs that are paired - so a sit from the end of the first sign might be the sit at the start of the sign next to it). In AKC, it's going to be more like 12-14. At least that's been my experience.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Shaina said:


> If you have signs in particular that you don't understand, you could always post them and ask. My forte is APDT rally which is a bit different but sign implementation is essentially the same...the difference is how early you see some of the signs.
> 
> For APDT rally the heel is a competition heel and you get dinged for lagged, forging, tight lead, crooked sits, etc., just as you would in obedience...the difference being that you can "help" them to some extent verbally, provided you don't cross the line into double-commanding. I think, from what I've heard from friends that do APDT, AKC, and UKC rally, that AKC is more lax in this regard so you may have more leeway.
> 
> ...


Ah, okay. Thank you for that information. It will prove useful if I decide to try out APDT or UKC in the future. Frag's heel is getting there, but it's not together perfectly yet. I think it is definitely close enough for AKC though. 



Elana55 said:


> For Rally Novice only the first 30 signs count. Some are self explanatory.. and the dog is on leash. You can talk to the dog but no food in the ring (in your pockets or on your person). Leash must be slack.
> 
> One thing he does need is an about turn and the German Left About turn (dog goes right and you turn about to the left). He also needs a left about staying on your left. There is a rule too about how you enter the weave cones.. I forget which side.. but it is important (first cone is always on your left I think).
> 
> ...


Alright, I checked out the first 30 and I understand all of those well. It must be the more advanced signs I don't understand, but I will worry about that when I'm in a class since I'm sure we won't be to that level before I can get into a class. I was a little confused on the spirals, it says the sign will be by the starting cone, so will the sign be by the farthest then, since (according to the diagram) that is where we actually commence our first turn? Or do they consider the beginning the first cone we pass, making it the first in the sequence?

We do great about right turns, and good "german left about turn" but the U left turn needs a little work because Frag forges ahead a bit and isn't paying enough attention to stay back while I turn around him unless I warn him in advance very dramatically.  I had never tried the german left about until today, but he does it marvelously, I think. Should it be that easy? I just do a U turn and switch hands with the leash as he's going around me the other way, right? Maybe I'll have to videotape it to make sure I'm doing it right.



Pawzk9 said:


> Good point on the left about - it confuses a lot of people. So does the spiral (many people try to weave through it or get lost in it) And yes, on the weaves, first cone is always at the dog's left shoulder.


How can the cones be at his left shoulder if it is a right spiral? 

Thanks for the help guys, I'm feeling a little more confident, but I'm still definitely going to try to get to a show beforehand or talk to a trainer. Maybe I'll ask the rally instructor of the class I can't attend if I could pay her whatever their private fee is for help getting ready for Rally. I've been practicing a lot of the signs at basic obedience class to prepare for that environment with him.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

The cone-at-left rule is abandoned for the right spiral. It's only true for the serpentine and the figure 8 (and the left spiral).

Honestly if you have APDT Rally in your area I would definitely recommend that... the trials are smaller and you are allowed to bring treats in the ring with you (and reward at specific signs). The courses are generally longer/harder but for a dog like Frag I think having the treats and the quieter trial setting would be really good.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> For Rally Novice only the first 30 signs count. Some are self explanatory.. and the dog is on leash. You can talk to the dog but no food in the ring (in your pockets or on your person). Leash must be slack.
> 
> One thing he does need is an about turn and the German Left About turn (dog goes right and you turn about to the left). He also needs a left about staying on your left. There is a rule too about how you enter the weave cones.. I forget which side.. but it is important (first cone is always on your left I think).
> 
> ...


One technicallity I "missed" early on was the fact that (when you call your dog front), you're allowed to take several steps backwards. Depending on the sign placement, it can really work for you if you take advantage of that. (In some cases, the next sign is so close to the call front sign that once your dog is back into heel position you're right on top of the next sign. Better to take your "several steps back" liberties in that instance).


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> The cone-at-left rule is abandoned for the right spiral. It's only true for the serpentine and the figure 8 (and the left spiral).
> 
> Honestly if you have APDT Rally in your area I would definitely recommend that... the trials are smaller and you are allowed to bring treats in the ring with you (and reward at specific signs). The courses are generally longer/harder but for a dog like Frag I think having the treats and the quieter trial setting would be really good.


Maybe I'll check it out. Can I just search for events via APDT's website?



LazyGRanch713 said:


> One technicallity I "missed" early on was the fact that (when you call your dog front), you're allowed to take several steps backwards. Depending on the sign placement, it can really work for you if you take advantage of that. (In some cases, the next sign is so close to the call front sign that once your dog is back into heel position you're right on top of the next sign. Better to take your "several steps back" liberties in that instance).


I wondered why they made note of that. Good to know, thank you!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

http://www.apdt.com/rally/calendar/details.asp?Type=1


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

MissMutt said:


> http://www.apdt.com/rally/calendar/details.asp?Type=1


Nothing in my state or surrounding states within driving distance for all of 2011.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah, it's very patchy. It's really, really concentrated in my area (NY/NJ), and I think a couple of areas of the Midwest (Ohio? is that the Midwest? lol)


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Have you looked at http://www.infodog.com/

You can find AKC venues there.. and AKC now offers (at some shows) Beginner Novice (pre CD) and Graduate Novice (Post CD, Pre CDX) classes in formal Obedience. Our club is going to offer both of those are our obedience trial. Just look for shows that are allbreed and have Obedience and see if they have any Rally Novice (RN) classes.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> Have you looked at http://www.infodog.com/
> 
> You can find AKC venues there.. and AKC now offers (at some shows) Beginner Novice (pre CD) and Graduate Novice (Post CD, Pre CDX) classes in formal Obedience. Our club is going to offer both of those are our obedience trial. Just look for shows that are allbreed and have Obedience and see if they have any Rally Novice (RN) classes.


Also, there is now a Graduate Open class (pre-Utility.)


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

DJI don't know if this will help you or not but check into this:
www.c-wags.org
There isn't a whole lot of trials, but the majority of them are in ohio/michigan. This is the org I've got Tag registered with and will trial him in first. The obedience (parts 1 & 2) look pretty easy and ring-stress free (at least to me), and the rally as well. There are a lot of bonus "games" too. Who knows--maybe we'll run into eachother sometime this summer!!!! 
BTW, I've emailed a few of the C-wags coordinators. VERY nice people. It seems very very novice friendly.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> Yeah, it's very patchy. It's really, really concentrated in my area (NY/NJ), and I think a couple of areas of the Midwest (Ohio? is that the Midwest? lol)


Indiana-Illinois-Iowa are the strongest in the Midwest I think.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I definitely WANT to get to a trial beforehand, but I don't know if there are many (if any) within driving distance I can get to before the trial that is local that I'm hoping to enter him in. *I can bring him to warm up there?* (as you can see, I know very little of show ettiquette and style)


I suspect that for most organizations (certainly, in AKC) .. a dog cannot attend anywhere on the show grounds unless it is paid for and entered as 'Exhibition Only', at the least.

.. mostly for insurance and liability purposes, I believe.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> I suspect that for most organizations (certainly, in AKC) .. a dog cannot attend anywhere on the show grounds unless it is paid for and entered as 'Exhibition Only', at the least.
> 
> .. mostly for insurance and liability purposes, I believe.


This, I don't understand completely. I have taken Tag to tons of trials just for the fun of it. No one has ever said a word? I wouldn't have done this if I knew I was breaking some sort of rule, but I'm really confused...


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> This, I don't understand completely. I have taken Tag to tons of trials just for the fun of it. No one has ever said a word? I wouldn't have done this if I knew I was breaking some sort of rule, but I'm really confused...


At times, I too have taken my dogs without formally entering. I think it boils down to how well you can blend, how appropriately and courteously you act, and perhaps even how familiar you are to the host club, ... etc.

But technically, all dogs should be entered in order to 'legally' attend.

I looked for my hard copy of the CKC rules, unfortunately I couldn't find it and gave up looking. However I did find this. It's pretty simple but still demonstrates the rule ..

*"Only dogs entered in official classes, including Exhibition Only, are permitted within the precincts of the trial."*

http://www.doindogs.com/Obedience_trial_rules/entries.shtml#6.1

I'm assuming that AKC rules are the same in regards to EO, generally speaking.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Yes. AKC is the same. However, I have never been checked... and here is the deal.. if you have two dogs and only one is entered and the trial is a few days and you must stay over night what else are you going to do with dog #2? If you show a lot, leaving the dog behind is not reasonable (boarding) and if you are a big handler going to all breed shows, you may have a breed on your truck that is excluded from entering.

I believe the rule has to do with liability and maybe space (depending on the show). 

I know someone just back from the NOI and she takes both her older dog and the puppy tho the puppy is too young to be entered right now. Not everyone has the luxory of being able to leave a second dog home. 

The rules almost always specify that the crates need to be hard crates and stackable.. again, if space is a concern it may be enforced but most shows I go to the crates are soft fabric crates bby the majority.

I have also gone to shows as a spectator and brought my dog because a vendor was at the show and I needed the dog sized for a dumb bell. No one said I could not be there.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Yes. AKC is the same. However, I have never been checked... and here is the deal.. if you have two dogs and only one is entered and the trial is a few days and you must stay over night what else are you going to do with dog #2? If you show a lot, leaving the dog behind is not reasonable (boarding) and if you are a big handler going to all breed shows, you may have a breed on your truck that is excluded from entering.
> 
> I believe the rule has to do with liability and maybe space (depending on the show).
> 
> ...


I just took Tag to do some training and let him hang out to adjust to a trial environment. A class does not compare to a trial (environmentally speaking). Tag knows a nice heel, he is NOT allowed to bother dogs/people (it's not a dog park or a social outing!!!!!), and if he tries he's either crated or told to lie down and stay (which he does). I wonder if this rule was keeping JQP from taking Fido to a dog show for "fun" (complete with a flexi leash).


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