# Taking Home a Dog at 7 Weeks



## Equinox

What do you say about taking home a puppy at 7 weeks? I've seen a lot of people strongly against it, and warn others to run away if a breeder sells puppies under 8 weeks. While that makes sense to me, I am starting to wonder if taking a dog home at 7 weeks isn't such a bad idea. I did some quick reading on the internet, and saw that a study showed that 7 weeks is actually the ideal age to take a puppy home, as that is when it is confidant, not yet entering the fear stage, eager to please, and easier to bond with.

What are the reasons for leaving a puppy with it's mother and littermates until it is at least 8 weeks old?


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## upendi'smommy

I actually got Upendi at four weeks, but before you bash me it's only because her mother completely rejected the litter, and the people who had her knew nothing about puppies, they didn't even know to worm them. As a result when I got Upendi she was very sickly and it took a lot of work and long hours to nurse her back to health. As for 7 weeks, I've also read that that's the ideal age. I think the reason for 8 weeks is to learn more doggy manners from their littermates and mother.


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## MissMutt

Yeah, the things I've always heard about 8 weeks are the socialization and bite inhibition kinds of stuff.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest

upendi'smommy said:


> I actually got Upendi at four weeks, but before you bash me it's only because her mother completely rejected the litter, and the people who had her knew nothing about puppies, they didn't even know to worm them. As a result when I got Upendi she was very sickly and it took a lot of work and long hours to nurse her back to health. As for 7 weeks, I've also read that that's the ideal age. I think the reason for 8 weeks is to learn more doggy manners from their littermates and mother.


My Smalls was the same story. Got her between 4-5 weeks. Surgery, nursing her back to health, and dealing with her behavioral and health problems were a nightmare. It's been over 2 1/2 years since I got her, and I'm still not quite ready to raise a puppy again.


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## Equinox

MissMutt said:


> Yeah, the things I've always heard about 8 weeks are the socialization and bite inhibition kinds of stuff.


Bite inhibition is what I've been hearing, too, but someone pointed out to me that if the breeder lets the rest of the litter go at 7 weeks, there really isn't much point on leaving the pup to learn about _that_ is there? Is that the only pro to leaving a pup until 8 weeks?

Socialization doesn't make sense to me, though. Wouldn't the pup be exposed to more people if it left it's litter to go to a family that made sure the pup met many, many new people?

(Oh - just wanted to confess, I'm asking this because I might be *probably am* bringing Mr. Long Awaited for Puppy home at 7 weeks at the breeder's recommendation )


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## jesirose

It used to be 16, then 12, then 10, then 8. Now 7. Next 6. I had a girl bring a 5 week old GSD she bought into the store because "The breeder let them go, because the mom weaned them".


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## KenyiGirl

16 weeks seems way too long for a breeder to keep a puppy that they plan on sending to a new home


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## RRM_Mom08

wow 16 weeks ??? From the books I have read on dog physcology the prime time is between 7 to 10 weeks of age.When you go beyond that and have that pack dynamic and they start to bond to the pack and not the person.I think alot of socialization depends on the breed of dog,size of the litter and the program and time that the breeder put into her/his socailization and breeding program in general.Each breed is different some stronger/dominant breeds need work with bite inhibitation so the breeder should compensate on that.This being said I really don't think they should leave before 7 weeks of age at all even if they are orphaned.

But just a heads up you do not want to take that puppy anywhere until it has at least 2 puppy shots (I am even more paranoid with mine but anyway) parvo and other things are out there so be safe rather then sorry and keep your puppy at home till you get the OK from the breeder or Vet.


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## tirluc

i've said this b/4 on other posts about this that the best bond i have had w/ any of my dogs were the ones i got at 6-7 wks old....Lacey was gotten at 6 1/2 wks and Titch was born here and the bond is extreme between the each of them and i and less between dog/dog......Tir is really close but we seemed to miss some connection in that last wk of not having her (she was brought home at 8-8 1/2 wks)....and i have no social problems w/ any of them and no bite problems w/ them....nor any other issues like SA, DA, etc...


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## jbsmomto1

I think it can vary from breed to breed and pup to pup. BUT my feeling is that placing pups before they are 8 weeks at minimum is similar to kicking your 3 yr old out of the house and expecting them to do well in life. Like that 3 yr old the puppy also has to learn basic life skills, that is something that no human can teach and really needs to be done by mother dog.


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## AkiraleShiba

In Switzerland it's illegal to sell a dog before 12 weeks old and in France before 8.

If you're going to buy your dog from a reputable breeder or someone that knows what they're doing (rescues and the like) I think it's best to leave the dog be with its litter mates so he identifies with the canine specie and learn dogie manners.

If the dogs are not cared for in the way they should, I'm ok with taking them early, however people have to realise that the puppy may be overly attached to them and will have a harder time stop puppy nipping.


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## wvasko

Back in the Jurassic era 7 weeks was the accepted norm. I definitely would not want my puppy after 8 weeks of age, as I have always liked to build my own pup. I really never had any problems with the 7 wk old pups. This is not advice just personal practises.


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## Echo's mom

Echo was 7 weeks when I got her... although my sweet mutt did not come from a breeder. She was with her litter/mother up until that time tho. She has had some issues with bite inhibition which she's finally working through pretty nicely, but that's all. Everything else with her has been a breeze... really couldn't have asked for a better puppy.


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## InkedMarie

I've had three puppies...two came to me at 9 weeks from breeders, the first at 10 weeks, from the local shelter.
One question to ask yourself: does your state have a law against transferring before a certain age? Here, in NH, it is 8 weeks.


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## RRM_Mom08

Ok I am going to throw this out there as someone that has had/raised multipule litters and seen the same thing with every litter we have had so far.my mothers have always left the pups at around 4-5 weeks of age and they don't look back.If she does decide to come around to check in on them it is a quick hop in and back out.Because the mom's know that the first thing the babies always want to do is nurse on them (and duh they have sharp teeth and it cut's them up). No amount of barking growling or whatever stop's them.I strongly believe that re-homing the babies around that 7 to 9 week period is critical to there devlopement


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## Shaggydog

I've always heard that it's best between 8-9 weeks.But the normal release around here is 6-7 weeks. Most people,not reputable breeders try too get rid of them as soon as they start eating regular puppy food,or whatever they feed them.


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## Marsh Muppet

I got all of my planned pups at 7 weeks. I read in a book that the 49th day was best, and I went with that. Those pups always worked out extremely well. Their working out well may have as much, or more, to do with the fact of the research and planning I put into the acquisition--I dunno. I also take 2 or 3 weeks vacation to bond with a new pup, get him on a schedule, and let him explore his new environment in total security.

Anyway, I always felt that the more I had control of the pup's early development, the better off we'd all be. If the breeder is going to begin socialization (with lots of people), house training, and puppy obedience training, then it doesn't matter (with most breeds) if they hang onto the pups for the first year.

I wouldn't go earlier than 7 weeks, but lots of abandoned pups have been raised to be good dogs even from 5 or 6 weeks.


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## Xeph

It's not uncommon for toy breeders not to let their puppies go until 12-16 weeks.


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## Sunshyne

I got Chloe at 16 weeks. No issues, ever, except the normal semi-crazy puppy stage. She was attached to us immediately and it has never ended! She has bonded equally well with both myself and my daughter. She is our shadow, and her temperment is almost perfect. 

I can't explain why, nor say it's because she was 16 weeks when we got her, but she is an amazingly well mannered dog and behavior wise I have no complaints.


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## MrsJohnnyG

> I got all of my planned pups at 7 weeks. I read in a book that the 49th day was best, and I went with that. Those pups always worked out extremely well. Their working out well may have as much, or more, to do with the fact of the research and planning I put into the acquisition--I dunno. I also take 2 or 3 weeks vacation to bond with a new pup, get him on a schedule, and let him explore his new environment in total security.


We took home our boys just past 7 weeks, thinking that since we were getting littermates _and _had a mother figure in our older girl (for the bite inhibition "training"), and I work from home and have been able to spend plenty of time with them, that it would be okay. (And it's been more than okay... they've done better than I could have imagined, in every way.) I think if I weren't able to spend a lot of time with them, and/or they were going to be an only puppy, I would have waited until 8 weeks.


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## Equinox

Well, this breeder is definitely reputable and is NOT just wanting to get rid of the puppies to cut back on costs. They have, for the past 35+ years, been letting puppies go at 7 weeks, it seems. I had received a call from the breeder and she told me they have been temperament tested, microchipped, and are developed enough to go home. 

There are no laws against taking a puppy home at 7 weeks in Oregon. There will always be someone home to take care of him. I go to school for 8 hours a day, but my mom is willing to exercise and take care of the puppy while I am away. 

I'm glad to hear people have had a good experience with taking home puppies at 7 weeks. From the looks of it... I probably will be getting my puppy in 2 or 3 days, depending!!!


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## Willowy

Try to get your pup around other (known to be healthy and vaccinated!) dogs as often as you can. My experience has been that dogs taken before 8 or 9 weeks are just fine in the human socialization department, but miss out on dog socialization a bit. You can make up for that, it just takes a little extra effort unless you already have another dog.


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## Equinox

That's a good idea, I was thinking of it, too. I have arranged a play date with him and my friend's two dogs (Pomeranian mixes) who recommended our vet. They are up to date with vaccinations and healthy. I'll also be finding more dogs that are 100% healthy for socialization.


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## Dogstar

I think this is one of those cases where there's just too many factors to give a hard and fast rule. 8 weeks is usually fine. 7 weeks is fine if you've got a schedule that permits it AND the ability to socialize that pup properly and the patience to get through the nippy and immature bladder stages. (Meaning, you have access to tolerant adult dogs who will put up with a reasonable amount of puppy silliness BUT apply proper discipline when needed). But I got Mal at 10 weeks and that was fine too. In general, I'd be leary of getting a performance prospect later than 12 weeks unless the dog was mostly grown and it was a situation where I could take the dog out and see how they were in non-home situations (at a dog show, a horse show, Petsmart, SOMETHING- to see how social they were.) Kaylee was 15 months when I got her, and she's probably the dog of mine that I'm most closely bonded with at this point. (TXCollies gets credit for that though, because she and Kaylee's breeder did an EXCELLENT job with the puppy stuff. ) But there's breeders who DON'T socialize that well and it shows. And there's breeds where socialization just isn't an issue (especially some of the bigger toys and companion non-sporting dogs- Cavaliers and Bichons are the two I'm thinking of specifically- where it doesn't seem to matter WHAT sort of socialization they get as long as there's something, dogs with good temperament end up easygoing and not environmentally sensitive. I wouldn't worry about gettting a puppy like that at 5 months at all, but a herding breed where socialization seems to be more critical? Ehhh...) 

For an average pet? 8 weeks for a large breed, 10-12 for a small seems to be just fine. I wouldn't take a puppy before 7 weeks, period- and a breeder who let them go beore that is just not someone I'd be willing to give money to. Even if mom rejects pups, the breeder should still be working with them and keeping them together as a group until that minimum.


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## wabanafcr

We keep our Flatcoat puppies until at least 9 weeks. Flatcoats are a socially immature, slow-developing breed. We have found that hanging on to them for an extra week or two allows them to develop more confidence and they are more ready to be away from their siblings.

I think it does depend on the breed...


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## Spicy1_VV

I've been fine taking pups under 8 weeks for the most part. 7 weeks seems to be a good age. I've also got pups older too. I think it depends on the breed itself though. Some might be ready sooner while others need more time. With some I also wouldn't agree to the bite inhibition, at least in my breed. They are learning it is ok to fight, not something you want them thinking is ok from early on, quite the opposite really. Better to separate and train, which means I've no problem taking one at that age. The need to separate does also vary by litter, some mates get along for a long time and others 5-6wks they start.


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## txcollies

7 weeks is fine. I like 8 weeks, but I've even done 6 week old pups before. Never had any problems.

Thanks Dogstar, Kaylee has always been a good girl.


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## Marsh Muppet

Spicy1_VV said:


> With some I also wouldn't agree to the bite inhibition, at least in my breed. They are learning it is ok to fight, not something you want them thinking is ok from early on, quite the opposite really. Better to separate and train, which means I've no problem taking one at that age.


Yup. Pups running with the litter-pack have their resource guarding instincts reinforced the longer they stay together. Dominant pups get more dominant, and submissive pups get cowed and shy. None of this matters very much if the breeder has the know-how and time to properly deal with puppy behavior. I've no doubt there are many breeders who are better able to handle the critical developmental stages than I am. I am not a trusting soul, however, and prefer to screw up my dogs without outside help.


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## Equinox

Thanks again for all the great replies, everyone! I can't believe how much I'm learning on this forum  I will tell you I trust this breeder completely, and he knows what he is doing. Two other German shepherd owners have received their pups from him at 7 weeks old, and they both say those were the best dogs they have ever had. 

_Anyway..._ looks like Mr. Baby Trent is coming home *THIS SATURDAY*. As in, 2 days away. I'm so excited!


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## MissMutt

I'm so excited for you! I feel like all of us here at DF have been with you along the way for this whole journey. I went to Vom HausReid's page and his parents are gorgeous


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## musicmom116

We got Dallas at around 10, 11 weeks, and I wish we had gotten her earlier. She is still scared stiff of everything and I think a lot had to do with the guy who had her was not nice to the puppies at all. BTW, she will be 1 yr. old next week


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## Equinox

musicmom - I'm sorry about Dallas, how's she doing now?

But I'm thinking that was probably more the breeder's fault than because you got the pup at 10 weeks. This whole "what age to get the puppy?" is so confusing, and there really is no right answer. >.<



MissMutt said:


> I'm so excited for you! I feel like all of us here at DF have been with you along the way for this whole journey. I went to Vom HausReid's page and his parents are gorgeous


I really feel like that, too. In a way, everyone has been walking me through this whole "first dog" process, and now, I'm finally getting him! I thought it'd take forever, and now I feel like it's all coming too fast  

Most people join AFTER getting their first dog. Nope, I got to get over-involved over-early and join Dogforums BEFORE hand. And I sure am glad I did!

I think Queina is a really pretty girl. This is another picture of her:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/529500.html

2 more daaays!!


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## tirluc

i, also, think, like Spicy, that it depends on the breed.....it's been my experience that the Borders seem to bond better and "grow" better when taken a little earlier....

but it also depends on the person getting the pup, as well....


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## wvasko

Again, not advising. Just stating what our program was. 1st off we were not into breeding just to put pups on the ground for sale. Over 45 years possibly 10 litters of dogs we liked. At 7 weeks of age all pups were separated and put in individual kennel runs as this stopped fighting over food. I also read the 49 day rule and more important watched the pups become stronger in their desire for food.


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## chasse

Bite inhibition may just be the #1 most important thing your dog learns. Dr Ian Dunbar certainly thinks so. There have been documented cases where wonderful dogs (therapy dogs, etc) never had a problem in their lives but bit someone under extreme circumstances (car door slammed on their tail, person trips and head butts them while they are chewing on a bone, etc) and tears the person up, needing stitches, because they don't know their own jaws' strength learned by playing with their littermates. A normal, even I'll tempered, dog will just nip and usually not even break the skin, but a dog with no bite inhibition will crush you with their jaws. The other risk is that your dog could become unfriendly with other dogs and go nuts every time he sees one (something some behaviorists have said is impossible to completely cure ina dog with no dog-dog socialization prior to 12 weeks).


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## Smithcat

The Guide pups from Guide Dogs for the Blind are placed with the puppy raisers at 8-10 weeks of age, so 7 weeks is not that much different. And since GDB has been whelping, raising and training working Guide dogs successfully for over 60 years, they have a pretty good grasp on dog behavior and what works. I wouldnt worry too much about a 7 week old pup.


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## chasse

Smithcat said:


> The Guide pups from Guide Dogs for the Blind are placed with the puppy raisers at 8-10 weeks of age, so 7 weeks is not that much different. And since GDB has been whelping, raising and training working Guide dogs successfully for over 60 years, they have a pretty good grasp on dog behavior and what works. I wouldnt worry too much about a 7 week old pup.


GDB would never, ever place a pup at 7 weeks because the risk is too great for a pup that hasn't had that extra week of dog-dog socialization and bite inhibition. Imagine a blind person steps on a dogs tail or a child provokes a dog (which a blind person cannot prevent) and a bite happens with little or no bite inhibition. The child has $4000 in emergency room fees (a very normal hospitol bill these days for tests and stitches) because the dog doesn't have a soft mouth and who pays? Then a dog that costs thousands to go through their program is put to sleep. Airlines will not ship a dog before 8 weeks either.


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## Marsh Muppet

Socialization with the litter is a double edged sword. Pups learn some valuable lessons from the dam and littermates, but they also learn behaviors that could be considered anti-social by human standards. Anyone who's smarter than the dog can teach bite inhibition, and how a dog responds to having his tail slammed in a car door is not predictable based on when he left the litter. A one year old dog has had a lot of experiences that color his response to events. To disregard those and blame an inappropriate reaction on the age that he left his litter, is just silly.


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## chasse

Marsh Muppet said:


> Socialization with the litter is a double edged sword. Pups learn some valuable lessons from the dam and littermates, but they also learn behaviors that could be considered anti-social by human standards. Anyone who's smarter than the dog can teach bite inhibition, and how a dog responds to having his tail slammed in a car door is not predictable based on when he left the litter. A one year old dog has had a lot of experiences that color his response to events. To disregard those and blame an inappropriate reaction on the age that he left his litter, is just silly.


Bite inhibition does not prevent a dog from biting. You are right in that interaction with a pups littermates does not influence how a dog reacts when a car door slams on it's tail. However, your response shows a lack of understanding on what bite inhibition is.

Bite inhibition is when/if a dog does bite, it wont be very hard. All dogs are capable of biting under the right circumstance, it is the dog who didn't learn bite inhibition at a young age that is a ticking timebomb, and owners of a well behaved dog will never know this until it bites. When puppies are born they don't know their owns jaws strength. They learn this through playing with their littermates. When they bite too hard or are bitten to hard, the pup getting bitten yelps and the play stops. This happens over and over until they develop soft mouths. Taking the pup away from it's littermates at 7 weeks undermines this process, which is why the laws are in place and every expert in the field will tell you not to do it.

You can take the pup to socialization classes or try to teach the pup when it is biting you too hard yourself, but it won't be nearly as effective as leaving it with it's littermates for another week. As far as learning bad habits, the pup's mother actually assists in the housetraining process which is a good thing.


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## Smithcat

chasse said:


> GDB would never, ever place a pup at 7 weeks because the risk is too great for a pup that hasn't had that extra week of dog-dog socialization and bite inhibition. Imagine a blind person steps on a dogs tail or a child provokes a dog (which a blind person cannot prevent) and a bite happens with little or no bite inhibition. The child has $4000 in emergency room fees (a very normal hospitol bill these days for tests and stitches) because the dog doesn't have a soft mouth and who pays? Then a dog that costs thousands to go through their program is put to sleep. Airlines will not ship a dog before 8 weeks either.


I did not say that GDB would place a pup at 7 weeks. Only that the difference between 7 and 8 weeks would not be all that critical for a pet dog. The socialization factor for a working service dog is much more critical than for a pet that will not be in the public venue as much. And GDB does not put any of their dogs to sleep.
Both of my wifes Guides were placed with their raisers at 8 weeks old, and the pup we are raising came to us at 9 weeks old.


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## chasse

Smithcat said:


> I did not say that GDB would place a pup at 7 weeks. Only that the difference between 7 and 8 weeks would not be all that critical for a pet dog. The socialization factor for a working service dog is much more critical than for a pet that will not be in the public venue as much. And GDB does not put any of their dogs to sleep.
> Both of my wifes Guides were placed with their raisers at 8 weeks old, and the pup we are raising came to us at 9 weeks old.


Ah I see, actually the experts say it is _very_ critical. A week in an 7 week old puppy's life is a long time, especially as far as bite inhibition learning goes. They don't even open up their eyes till 2-3 weeks old. They don't even walk till 3-4 weeks old, and even then they don't see or walk well and they spend 80-90% of their time sleeping. And I meant if a dog bites a child and inflicts injury, the police in many jurisdictions will put it to sleep (especially if the child's parents push for it and the hospital and/or insurance company will probably report it), not the GDB.


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## 123fraggle

Sunshyne said:


> I got Chloe at 16 weeks. No issues, ever, except the normal semi-crazy puppy stage. She was attached to us immediately and it has never ended! She has bonded equally well with both myself and my daughter. She is our shadow, and her temperment is almost perfect.
> 
> I can't explain why, nor say it's because she was 16 weeks when we got her, but she is an amazingly well mannered dog and behavior wise I have no complaints.


I think that it depends on the breeder. The breeder of our pups wouldn't let them go until they were 9 weeks, she wanted to get them past their fear stage. She also did lots of socialization with them, car trips, lots of toy interaction etc. so I did not have a problem waiting. We got a Beagle puppy at 6 weeks and even though we maybe should have waited, the breeder had them out in run and did not handle them at all. This puppy took a lot of work to socialize. It can also depend on the individual dog. We got an ESS pup at 10 weeks and she was already crate trained and housebroken. She however ended up becoming very aggressive once she hit adolesence. The 2 pups we got at 9 weeks ended up being the easiest to raise and the most secure adult dogs. Not too sure if the age made the difference or not.


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## chasse

123fraggle said:


> I think that it depends on the breeder. The breeder of our pups wouldn't let them go until they were 9 weeks, she wanted to get them past their fear stage.


The fear stage often happens in the ninth or tenth week, and it often lasts a couple of weeks. It can happen anytime between 7-12 weeks and can last a few days to a few weeks.


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## Marsh Muppet

chasse said:


> Taking the pup away from it's littermates at 7 weeks undermines this process, which is why the laws are in place and every expert in the field will tell you not to do it.


The laws are in place because some interested parties lobbied their legislature and made it so. Just because something is law does not make it good--or even not insane.

"Every expert in the field....". Man, I love the internet!


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## chasse

Marsh Muppet said:


> The laws are in place because some interested parties lobbied their legislature and made it so. Just because something is law does not make it good--or even not insane.
> 
> "Every expert in the field....". Man, I love the internet!


True, but these laws are implemented around the world, most of the time without any such lobbying whatsoever. These laws are put into place for the same reason dogfighting is illegal. There is no corporate entity or special interest group that profits off of making sure breeders wait until puppies are 8 weeks of age before selling. The only people who care are the Humane Societies and animal welfare groups. You will not find an expert in the field who advocates releasing puppies before 8 weeks of age. And I'm not talking Joe Blow on the internet, I'm talking Dr Ian Dunbar, Sarah Wilson, Brian Kilcommons, Job Michael Evans, Clarence Rutherford, and the like. It is the Joe Blow here that is giving out the wrong info.


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## 123fraggle

chasse said:


> The fear stage often happens in the ninth or tenth week, and it often lasts a couple of weeks. It can happen anytime between 7-12 weeks and can last a few days to a few weeks.


I believe that, and we were told by the breeder to keep things calm for the first few weeks we had them. We were told that if something were to scare them at this time it would be very difficult to fix that fear. For instance if we were to drop a pot on the floor in the kitchen the dog may have a fear of being in the kitchen that we would have difficulty dealing with.


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## midnight mojo

chasse said:


> You will not find an expert in the field who advocates releasing puppies before 8 weeks of age. And I'm not talking Joe Blow on the internet, I'm talking Dr Ian Dunbar, Sarah Wilson, Brian Kilcommons, Job Michael Evans, Clarence Rutherford, and the like. It is the Joe Blow here that is giving out the wrong info.


I'm pretty certain that Ian Dunbar does not in fact agree that releasing a puppy before 8 weeks is always the best thing. I distinctly recall in his book _Before You Get Your Puppy_ that he mentioned 8 weeks as the accepted norm but it was dependant on the experience level of the breeder in question as well as the new owner.

Of course, you can still argue 8 weeks as a legal minimum in some areas and as the minimum age to get a pup from a responsible breeder for a new to average puppy owner.


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## Dogstar

chasse said:


> True, but these laws are implemented around the world, most of the time without any such lobbying whatsoever. These laws are put into place for the same reason dogfighting is illegal. There is no corporate entity or special interest group that profits off of making sure breeders wait until puppies are 8 weeks of age before selling. The only people who care are the Humane Societies and animal welfare groups. You will not find an expert in the field who advocates releasing puppies before 8 weeks of age. And I'm not talking Joe Blow on the internet, I'm talking Dr Ian Dunbar, Sarah Wilson, Brian Kilcommons, Job Michael Evans, Clarence Rutherford, and the like. It is the Joe Blow here that is giving out the wrong info.


No, but you know what? Wolters, among others, recommends Day 49. I think the Monks of New Skete did too, but I don't have a current edition of their book. So did the Kilcommons, until fairly recently. 

I think that it's just not a black and white issue.


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## Kyllobernese

I do not usually get into these types of discussions but finally had to say something. I cannot quite follow along with this "bite inhibition" being taught by litter mates. I have found the opposite with most puppy litters I have raised. If one puppy bites the other too hard, they don't quit playing but instead the puppy being bitten, bites back harder and you have a battle. I have found that puppies left with their litter mates much longer than 8 weeks, learn to play very roughly and are harder to teach that people are not to be played with that way. The two breeds that I am most familiar with are Scottish Terriers and Shih Tzu, which I have raised a lot of litters of over the years. That is just my experience. I always give the mother's an escape route once the puppies are 4 to 5 weeks so they can get away from their puppies and they are usually weaned by the mother by 6 weeks and she wants nothing to do with them.


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## Marsh Muppet

As in all things in life, the answer is: it depends. All breeds do not develop on the same schedule, nor do all pups within the same breed--or even the same litter. Pups removed from the litter at 7 weeks (or even 6) don't spontaneously detonate at some time in the future. Whether you take a pup at 7 weeks, or 12 weeks, you gain something and you lose something. It still matters how the pup is handled for the 6 months after coming home.

Ideally, the pups (a la Vasko) begin being housed separately at that time, and having their time together limited. If that is done, I'm perfectly fine with the breeder keeping the pups longer, and it is probably best that she does. Most are not set up for that, and a litter of puppies is not the self-regulating unit many think. In a 6-8 week old litter, that's penned together, the weakest pup is already finding itself on the bottom of a pig-pile. Every single day.

Some breeds are quite hard to pain, and biting/being bitten really gets the juices flowing. Nothing good comes from leaving such a group to their own devices. Breeds that are prone to dog aggression probably benefit from the extra socialization with their own kind--as long as it's closely supervised. Breeds that are prone to human aggression are probably better off being taken on the earlier side. I want a Dobe, Rotty, GSD, etc., to meet hundreds of people, in all kinds of settings, by the time he's 6 months old, and I want to get started on that sooner rather than later. There again, if the breeder is doing the right thing, they can stay longer.

There is no single correct answer.


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## wvasko

MM 
good info, I sometimes wonder when posters start quoting a lot of experts whether they have any real life experience in the problem that the quoted experts have. All it really takes is a chair and time to sit and watch the litter and that will tell you when to seperate pups in litter. My limited experience was GSPs, GSDs and Dobes. All it takes is one second for a pup to snap at another pup and pop an eyeball over food. Again it's one of those things that is not rocket science just common sense. Yes it's more work seperating puppies but well worth it. I also have no argument with 8 weeks as long as pups allow 8 weeks.


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## Marsh Muppet

The woman who sold me my Golden has put a number of litters on the ground, put working titles on dogs, is certified to judge AKC field trials, and taught a course in canine behavior at Cornell. She's expert enough for me. She let the pup go at 7 weeks. She did, however, turn away a young couple who wanted to buy a pup as I was waiting to be "interviewed". They were super fit with mountain bikes and a kayak loaded on their SUV, so the pup would never have wanted for an active life. They didn't quite get the part about the insane levels of drive those pups were bred to have, and she couldn't send one home with them in good conscience.


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## wvasko

Marsh Muppet said:


> The woman who sold me my Golden has put a number of litters on the ground, put working titles on dogs, is certified to judge AKC field trials, and taught a course in canine behavior at Cornell. She's expert enough for me. She let the pup go at 7 weeks. She did, however, turn away a young couple who wanted to buy a pup as I was waiting to be "interviewed". They were super fit with mountain bikes and a kayak loaded on their SUV, so the pup would never have wanted for an active life. They didn't quite get the part about the insane levels of drive those pups were bred to have, and she couldn't send one home with them in good conscience.


I think that qualifies her as a real life expert with her breeding program and what her puppies needed. It's kinda hard to beat that. What's that old saying the proof is in the pudding or in this case the puppies.


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