# Ingredient Phobias



## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

What is your favorite ingredient phobia and why?


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I have a "HUGE" phobia about preservatives! My little 5 and 1/2 year old dog just died ... I had to put him down as he was too far gone to be saved ... and I party blame it on all the ethoxyquin he ingested before I knew it was a pesticide/preservative in his food. He ate a food with this and food coloring and corn and wheat and soy for almost five years ...... he had pancreatic neucrosis and a huge mass in his stomach which according to the vet/surgeon was probable cancer. Sure ... it could have been genetic ... I cannot prove otherwise ... but my gut says different .....

I have switched my dogs to a better food now .......


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

Corn. Historically, the waste from producing corn for human consumption was first put into dog food to make money off of it. It causes a myriad of problems for many dogs - a big cause of kibble allergy, along with wheat and soy. Look at the ingredients of many lower quality kibbles - corn (often named in several different ways) will be in the first 3-5 ingredients - total filler. It simply goes out the other end, causing larger poos, b/c it can't be digested by dogs.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

georgiapeach said:


> Corn. Historically, the waste from producing corn for human consumption was first put into dog food to make money off of it. It causes a myriad of problems for many dogs - a big cause of kibble allergy, along with wheat and soy. Look at the ingredients of many lower quality kibbles - corn (often named in several different ways) will be in the first 3-5 ingredients - total filler. It simply goes out the other end, causing larger poos, b/c it can't be digested by dogs.


Show me some science on this. I agree it shouldn't be a major component of a food but show me the science on digestibility and allergies. There are at least 28 peer reviewed studies that show corn is only responsible for about 2-3% of valid and very rare food allergies, about the same as rice or potatoes. 

Chicken, beef, eggs & dairy are responsible for over 90%.

So since you have a phobia about this, present the science please.

From Dr. Susan Wynn:

"If dogs have the genetic predisposition to develop food allergies, they can become allergic to certain foods. A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish."

I don't see any grains.

So the phobia about corn is completely false. Next phobia please, please make it beet pulp.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Isn't a "phobia", by definition, an irrational fear? And you want people to submit proof? LOL.


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

There will always be two sides to the corn debate. Here's one source:
http://myallergiesstory.com/corn-allergies-for-dogs/ 
Here's another: http://www.muttropolis.com/content/allergies-dog.cfm 
Another: http://www.ehow.com/facts_5621800_corn-allergies-dogs.html 
And another: http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-industry-exposed/dog-food-corn/ 

While many other ingredients can cause problems for dogs as seen in several of these links, corn is not altogether innocent either.

I prefer to not have it in my dog's kibble, along with wheat and soy.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Isn't a "phobia", by definition, an irrational fear? And you want people to submit proof? LOL.


Yup ... just like I have an irrational fear that all my other dogs will die the "same" untimely death from the same "exact" disease from ingesting ethoxyquin ......... 

Beet pulp is a controversial subject ... as it is a filler/fiber. Fiber is good for the colon. But that list of controversy goes on and on ... from what I have read ... not saying any of it is true ... just because it is written on the internet. :/


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## JulieK1967 (May 29, 2011)

I didn't like most of the ingredients in commercial dog food so I switched my girl to Prey Model Raw.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

Yes because they don't realize it is irrational. By asking for proof they learn.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

Abbylynn said:


> Yup ... just like I have an irrational fear that all my other dogs will die the "same" untimely death from the same "exact" disease from ingesting ethoxyquin .........
> 
> Beet pulp is a controversial subject ... as it is a filler/fiber. Fiber is good for the colon. But that list of controversy goes on and on ... from what I have read ... not saying any of it is true ... just because it is written on the internet. :/


In science beet pulp is not controversial. 

*""Beet pulp has been found to be an ideal source of moderately fermentable fiber. Fiber sources such as cellulose, bentonite, peanut hulls or soy bean hulls are poor sources because they are not very fermentable. The correct amount and type of fiber is necessary for a normal healthy digestive tract. There are bacteria in the normal healthy digestive track. These bacteria have the ability to ferment or digest certain types of fiber. The ideal fiber is partially fermentable or digestible, i.e., beet pulp. We want some fiber left to provide that bulk to the stool that is necessary for a healthy digestive system, but we also want some of the fiber to be digested by the bacteria. 1

Beet pulp in a diet encourages colonization of those bacteria which best ferment or digest that form of fiber and discourage those organisms which do not effectively ferment fiber. It so happens that many good bacteria that commonly inhabit the large intestines can deal with beet pulp ( Lactobacillus acidophilus and Enterococcus faecium are just two) and many pathogenic bacteria are not supported by its presence (Clostridium sp.,Salmonella sp. and e. coli)2.

Because beet pulp is an ideal food source for these good bacteria, they tend to overgrow potentially bad bacteria (pathogens and gas producers) and make the gut much more resistant to these harmful organisms. As a result of this digestive or fermentation process, vital nutrients called short chain fatty acids are produced which provide superior nutrition to the cells lining the large intestine enhancing their ability to function.

These short chain fatty acids (SCFA) are the key to a healthy and efficient digestive tract. The cells that line the intestinal track feed voraciously on SCFA. These cells have a high turnover rate and rely on SCFA to provide adequate nutrition. 3

That portion of beet pulp left after the fermentation of bacterial digestive process promotes ideal nutrient digestibility. The volume of stool is not excessive thus allowing the motility of the gut to move the nutrients along at a rate which assures maximum digestion and absorption.4

1. Buterwick, Maxwell. The effect of level and source of dietary fiber on 
food intake in the dog. Journal of Nutrition 1994 Vol. 124


2 Collins MD, Gibson Dr. Nutritional modulation of microbial ecology. American 
Journal of Clinical Nutrition 1998


3. Hallman JE, Moxley RA, et al. Cellulose, beet pulp and pectin/gum arabic 
effects on canine microstructure and histopathology. Veterinary Clinical 
Nutrition 1995;2:137-141


4. Albert s. Townshend DVM, Wellness for Life, Am Journal of Clinical 
Nutrition 2000
*

In a 40lb bag of food there is about a coffee mug's worth of beet pulp, if that.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

georgiapeach said:


> There will always be two sides to the corn debate. Here's one source:
> http://myallergiesstory.com/corn-allergies-for-dogs/
> Here's another: http://www.muttropolis.com/content/allergies-dog.cfm
> Another: http://www.ehow.com/facts_5621800_corn-allergies-dogs.html
> ...



There is not one peer reviewed study in that. And by the way The Dog Food Advisor is a dentist.

Cornell did a study of 10,000 dogs with bonafide food allergies and found rice and corn to be equal at 1%. There was a compilation study by Ghent that grouped all grains and came up with less than 5%, all grains.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

What about intolerances? Gluten intolerance in humans isn't an allergy, but they can't eat gluten anyway. I agree that histaminic reactions (true allergies) to grains are rare but I think intolerances are fairly common.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

WalterDog said:


> Yes because they don't realize it is irrational. By asking for proof they learn.


OK, so you asked people to post their "favorite food phobias," and your goal seems to be to bash what people post and demand proof...for educational purposes? And it seems like really you just want to argue with people? Lovely.


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

hamandeggs said:


> OK, so you asked people to post their "favorite food phobias," and your goal seems to be to bash what people post and demand proof...for educational purposes? And it seems like really you just want to argue with people? Lovely.


Not only that but he doesn't want to link to any proof to back up his own claims.


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

@WalterDog is pretty much spot on. People hate on corn for the wrong reasons imho. Processed corn products is not a significant source of allergies. However, you should shy away where it is used together with soy as a (deceptive) protein booster. Quality formulas shouldn't source large amounts of proteins from plants. Corn is a decent (not more than decent though) source of energy and can play a role when you want to add extra energy and/or keep cost at a reasonable level. Personally I stay away from kibble with corn simply because I believe there are other better alternatives that can play the same role in the formula. But if I where in a situation where I had lots of dogs/high feeding costs/special training program etc., I wouldn't turn down formulas with corn products in them if they where there for the right reasons.

Beet pulp (sans sugar) is not a filler. It's a good source of dietary fiber necessary for absorption and assimilation of essential vitamins and minerals. A hardcore PMR feeder can argue it's a filler but then most things going into kibble would be a filler. So, for the rest of us, a quality fiber is not a filler. It's one of those myths that refuses to die.

But hey, this is a phobia thread so people can have phobias over all sorts of stuff, I have my fair share  My food phobia is China, plain and simple.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

Willowy said:


> What about intolerances? Gluten intolerance in humans isn't an allergy, but they can't eat gluten anyway. I agree that histaminic reactions (true allergies) to grains are rare but I think intolerances are fairly common.


Corn has no "gluten", Oats have no "gluten", Rice has no "gluten", Barley has some "gluten" but it is actually very low.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

DaViking said:


> @WalterDog is pretty much spot on. People hate on corn for the wrong reasons imho. Processed corn products is not a significant source of allergies. However, you should shy away where it is used together with soy as a (deceptive) protein booster. Quality formulas shouldn't source large amounts of proteins from plants. Corn is a decent (not more than decent though) source of energy and can play a role when you want to add extra energy and/or keep cost at a reasonable level. Personally I stay away from kibble with corn simply because I believe there are other better alternatives that can play the same role in the formula. But if I where in a situation where I had lots of dogs/high feeding costs/special training program etc., I wouldn't turn down formulas with corn products in them if they where there for the right reasons.
> 
> Beet pulp (sans sugar) is not a filler. It's a good source of dietary fiber necessary for absorption and assimilation of essential vitamins and minerals. A hardcore PMR feeder can argue it's a filler but then most things going into kibble would be a filler. So, for the rest of us, a quality fiber is not a filler. It's one of those myths that refuses to die.
> 
> But hey, this is a phobia thread so people can have phobias over all sorts of stuff, I have my fair share  My food phobia is China, plain and simple.


I use a food with human grade whole ground corn and any food from an EU Cert plant will use the same. The combination of rice and corn is unbeatable.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

Fuzzy Pants said:


> Not only that but he doesn't want to link to any proof to back up his own claims.


I have you just don't look.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

WalterDog said:


> Corn has no "gluten", Oats have no "gluten", Rice has no "gluten", Barley has some "gluten" but it is actually very low.


I wasn't talking about gluten in particular. I meant dietary intolerances in general.

And rice gluten is a common ingredient in pet foods.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I wasn't talking about gluten in particular. I meant dietary intolerances in general.
> 
> And rice gluten is a common ingredient in pet foods.


The "gluten" associated with intolerances is specific to grasses like wheat, barley and rye. The term "gluten" is used too liberally. Barley & Rye have just trace amounts, though.

Rice, corn, oats, millet, sorghum have none of the protein subsets of true "gluten".


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm not talking about gluten! LOL. Intolerances in general.

I have a dog who can't eat corn. Actually my first dog was the same way, and one of my mom's current dogs. Probably not an allergy, I admit. But they can't eat dog food with corn in it. Don't know what else to tell ya.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I see it like this- there are bad foods (dangerous or poisonous), poor foods (useless), decent foods (functional) and good foods (highly functional)
But leaving aside the bad/dangerous foods, each dog is different.
For example, there is nothing wrong with pork. Actually, pork should be among the "good' foods but I avoid pork completely. Why? Because it doesn't work for MY dog. He eats pork, he gets canon butt. 

Gluten is a similar EXAMPLE. A food that there is nothing wrong with but that can affect some people, dogs, etc. Diary being another common problem food - calcium and protein, that's great right? Not if you're lactose intolerant. Some people have minor issues with dairy and find they just simply do better/feel better cutting it from their diet. If a dog does better without a given ingredient, then cut it out of his diet and find a healthful alternative. 

Corn to me is one of the "poor" foods- it serves no particular purpose in my dog's diet. Foods with corn tend to use so much corn product that it shoves the meat and protein products way too far down the list for my tastes. I won't say it is a "bad" food but many many dogs do better on a corn-free diet. I have seen peer-reviewed studies that show that corn is digestible and not harmful but that rice and oats are better grains for dogs. Since I feed grain-free because it works for my dog, I don't care too much about which grain is better than another grain.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I'm going to go with high fructose corn syrup. My eyes about popped out of my head when I saw it on the ingredients list of the food my roommate was feeding...I think it was 'Ol Roy.

Anyone want to provide some studies on how great _that_ ingredient is for our carnivorous pets? LOL


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

kafkabeetle said:


> I'm going to go with high fructose corn syrup. My eyes about popped out of my head when I saw it on the ingredients list of the food my roommate was feeding...I think it was 'Ol Roy.
> 
> Anyone want to provide some studies on how great _that_ ingredient is for our carnivorous pets? LOL


Heh, yeah, Shug came to us eating Ol' Roy Kibbles and Chunks (a generic Kibbles 'n' Bits! Yay!) and I think HFCS is the 4th ingredient. I felt bad even feeding it to the pigeons and blackbirds . Purina Moist 'n' Meaty has it as the second ingredient.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

WalterDog said:


> A recent review of 7 studies indicates that dogs are most commonly allergic to the following foods (in descending order): beef, dairy, wheat, egg, chicken, lamb/mutton, soy, pork, rabbit and fish."
> 
> I don't see any grains.


Really? You don't see any grains? Since when is wheat not a grain???


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

And soy is generally considered a grain for feed purposes. Even though we all know it's a legume.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Really, my main things I choose to stay away from: BHT/BHA preservatives, menadione, ethoxyquin, etc - I always like to research and look out for any potential unnecessary chemicals used in a food. Oh and anything from China.

I don't really think corn is as evil as people make it out to be, but I prefer to skip it, as I feel it's not that digestible by people or dogs. I also don't like seeing it used as a protein booster in food. But I am not sure potato or rice is any better.

I also personally have found that most foods that contain barley & flaxseed together give Jackson huge soft poops. Just an observation - nope, nothing scientific about it, but it's just what I've observed with him so I personally avoid them but don't think I'd call it a "phobia" as I don't have a problem with them.


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## WalterDog (May 25, 2012)

Canola Oil? That is a common phobia. Thoughts?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I know some people who won't use canola oil, but other than that I haven't thought about it. For a carnivore pet food I would prefer to see an animal fat, but I wouldn't refuse to use a food with canola oil and an animal fat.


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## roxiefoxie08 (Dec 15, 2011)

milk and whey intolerance phobia made my dog sick every morning for a month until i switched her to a different food.no yogurt nor cottage cheese


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I hate ANY by-products and avoid them if I can. I also will not feed anything with corn and try to stick to completely grain free when I can but will probably have to do high quality grain inclusive due to cost when I get a second dog, since I'm wanting a large dog.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

I have a phobia about threads about ingredient phobias.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Me too now after seeing the replies... Don't want to get attacked for not liking by-products...


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

i was just about to post that i felt like this thread was just started to try to bash everyone for their feelings on what they believe is good or bad for their dog.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

winniec777 said:


> I have a phobia about threads about ingredient phobias.


x 4

too short


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

Kayota said:


> Me too now after seeing the replies... Don't want to get attacked for not liking by-products...


Don't think anyone would attack you for that. These days it's more the other way around it seems. I don't mind by-product meals personally and know many of them are not that far of the quality of many "pure" meals. But yeah, I know what you're saying, difficult to keep these things "civilized". If everyone could just accept that ppl got various values, views and goals there would be less friction and bickering. It should be ok to acknowledge science but at the same time say thank you but no thank you, my values or beliefs lay elsewhere. When ppl stop accepting that is when the trouble starts.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I have never had the slightest concern about canola oil, but I live in the land of canola soo... lol, the only things I avoid in general are corn, wheat, artificial colourings and unspecified ingredients. 

I avoid hundreds of things for Babys food because is is allergic to everything lol, but not including Baby, the only other thing I really avoid is Oatmeal(which is hard without going grain free lol) because of my 6 dogs one is allergic to oatmeal and 1 is intolerant of it. 

my issue with corn is different from most peoples, my issue is that pretty much all corn in NA is GMO, and after seeing first hand what that GMO crap did to our gerbils, like hell am I going to feed it to my other pets! we could not for the life of us figer out what the deal was with the lack of fertility in our females, we were getting an awful lot of totally sterile females, and really low fertility rates, when there were births, many pups were born missing eyes, ears or tails. while concsulting a well known rodent researcher in europe, he asked if we were feeding them corn, and said that pretty much ALL corn in NA is GMO and he sent us some studies, after reading them we immedietly elminated corn from their diets..and wouldnt you know it, fertility went normal and we havent had any pups born with any defects since.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Miss Bugs said:


> I have never had the slightest concern about canola oil, but I live in the land of canola soo... lol, the only things I avoid in general are corn, wheat, artificial colourings and unspecified ingredients.
> 
> I avoid hundreds of things for Babys food because is is allergic to everything lol, but not including Baby, the only other thing I really avoid is Oatmeal(which is hard without going grain free lol) because of my 6 dogs one is allergic to oatmeal and 1 is intolerant of it.
> 
> my issue with corn is different from most peoples, my issue is that pretty much all corn in NA is GMO, and after seeing first hand what that GMO crap did to our gerbils, like hell am I going to feed it to my other pets! we could not for the life of us figer out what the deal was with the lack of fertility in our females, we were getting an awful lot of totally sterile females, and really low fertility rates, when there were births, many pups were born missing eyes, ears or tails. while concsulting a well known rodent researcher in europe, he asked if we were feeding them corn, and said that pretty much ALL corn in NA is GMO and he sent us some studies, after reading them we immedietly elminated corn from their diets..and wouldnt you know it, fertility went normal and we havent had any pups born with any defects since.


I'm no advocate of corn or GMO's, but as a scientist, I can't ignore this.

You eliminated corn from the gerbil's diets, so your result really only says something about corn, not about GMO's. Actually, without a controlled experiment, it doesn't say much at all.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I was trying to think of some way to say that... I learned about GMOs in Microbiology and they are really mostly harmless. They're mostly just adding genes from say, soy, into say corn, for example to prevent insects from eating the corn because the soy might have a gene that does this. I'm not saying this is an exact scenario though... Just an example.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Might want to read more about this. This is altering crop plant DNA to allow the farmers to spray a weed killer on the crop without killing the crop plant. The altered gene is just fine, it is the weedkiller residue that is the problem.


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

Kayota said:


> I was trying to think of some way to say that... I learned about GMOs in Microbiology and they are really mostly harmless. They're mostly just adding genes from say, soy, into say corn, for example to prevent insects from eating the corn because the soy might have a gene that does this. I'm not saying this is an exact scenario though... Just an example.


GMO crops is highly controversial. Not only the science but also from a socio-economical point of view. The North American corn is in part now a cultigen, it does not reproduce, cause havoc on native crops, hinders fair trade, the list can go on and on. Large parts of the world got a total GMO ban.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Kayota said:


> I was trying to think of some way to say that... I learned about GMOs in Microbiology and they are really mostly harmless. They're mostly just adding genes from say, soy, into say corn, for example to prevent insects from eating the corn because the soy might have a gene that does this. I'm not saying this is an exact scenario though... Just an example.


Well, not quite. The genes that are inserted could theoretically be from any other organism, but most of them are actually from various bacteria. As far as I know, soy genes have never been inserted into corn plants. You've got the right idea, but microbiologist's opinions on the subject may be skewed (think about where their funding comes from). I dunno if I'd call GMO's harmless - it's incredibly controversial.



> Might want to read more about this. This is altering crop plant DNA to allow the farmers to spray a weed killer on the crop without killing the crop plant. The altered gene is just fine, it is the weedkiller residue that is the problem.


Not necessarily. 

Bt corn (which is the corn we grow in NA) incorporates a gene from a bacterium right into the corn. Bugs who eat it die. No weedkiller necessary, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's safe. 

Round up ready soybeans, on the other hand, incorporate a gene that allows the plant to survive being sprayed with roundup. So in this case, weedkiller is applied. However, it's not necessarily the weedkiller that people object to - after all, we've been spraying crops for decades with only minimal protest from the public. A lot of people worry about the safety of ingesting an organism that includes genes from multiple unrelated organisms.



DaViking said:


> it does not reproduce, cause havoc on native crops, hinders fair trade, the list can go on and on. Large parts of the world got a total GMO ban.


Can you cite some sources?

Bt corn is not sterile. Yes, the company (Monsanto) thought about making sterile seed, but it turned into a PR nightmare before it ever happened, and they backed down. Some people wish the seed was sterile, because then if it got mistakenly planted or dumped somewhere, only one generation could grow. 

Native crops: What sort of havoc are you talking about? I'd say agriculture itself causes havoc on native ecosystems.

Yes, large parts of the world don't grow or import GMO's. Large parts do. What's your point? Who's to say who's right or wrong?

I guess what I'm saying is that there are no easy answers here. Do I eat GMO's? Yes. And so do you, if you live in NA and don't make a special effort not to. I believe that most GMO's are relatively safe for human (and animal) consumption. But I think most of the benefit of GMO's is realized by the companies that produce them, rather than by the public, the farmers, or the hungry people who they promised to help. I'd rather live in a world without GMO's, but I'm not going to freak out and put time and energy into avoiding them.


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## DaViking (Apr 13, 2012)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Can you cite some sources?
> 
> Bt corn is not sterile. Yes, the company (Monsanto) thought about making sterile seed, but it turned into a PR nightmare before it ever happened, and they backed down. Some people wish the seed was sterile, because then if it got mistakenly planted or dumped somewhere, only one generation could grow.
> 
> ...


Of course agriculture itself is a threat but there is a middle road to everything. The N. American corporate route is not the middle and sustainable way. Here's the std Monsanto bashing documentary Monsanto, Corn and Mexico (sorry if I picked the wrong one and not where they discuss Mexico, I don't have time to skim through the whole thing  )

No, I am an N. American import and do not eat a North American diet with GMO ingredients myself and, where possible, I will choose non GMO foods/ingredients for my dogs. Who's right and who's wrong? Hmmmmm, science will never provide an answer all you can do is to look at the healthier parts of the world and take it from there. It goes deeper than just allowing GMO or not, but it's defenately a part of the whole approach to food. A world without GM corn products will not suffer that much, economical interest will however, therein lies the problem. The world will be perfectly fine without GMO crops of any kind. See, we agree on the core here, the benefits are realized by company interests, not the public  Whit that in mind and knowing all the controversy surrounding it I see zero need for it. A middle of the road sustainable approach says "stay away"

Sorry to the OP (heh, I guess the OP is banned now so he probably dont care) and mods if this is off topic


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

GreatDaneMom said:


> i was just about to post that i felt like this thread was just started to try to bash everyone for their feelings on what they believe is good or bad for their dog.


This thread was started by a person who's been banned here a number of times and keeps finding ways in. If you see any like it, report and don't respond.


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