# Dumb dog, smart dog...dealing with frustration



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm having a difficult time dealing with my frustration with training more than anything. I have two dogs. One is a 1.5 yr old cocker spaniel. He's a very sharp dog, eager to please, motivated by food and affection and learns very quickly. I can usually teach him a simple trick in just 5-6 repetitions and can get it down very solid in just a session or two. He's fun to train because he learns so quickly. My other dog is a 10 year old basset hound. I swear he's as dumb as a box of rocks. He's motivated only by food and even then, he's very easily distracted. I can be holding a hot dog and he's distracted and wondering what's on my counters or what's in the trash or what's behind the refrigerator or whatever. I'm still working on getting him to sit on a regular basis. He will sometimes do it on command to get something from me but other times he looks at me like he has no idea what is expected of him. Getting him to sit and getting him to sit calmly are a completely different thing. The latter seems to rarely happen. At one point I thought I had trained him to not jump on the counters. He never did this when I was around at least. Now he doesn't seem to care and seems to have forgotten all the training.

How do you deal with frustration in training two dogs with such different learning speeds and capacities? I'm afraid I'm getting really frustrated with the hound and it's not helping the training process.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> My other dog is a 10 year old basset hound. I swear he's as dumb as a box of rocks.


You're not the first person to say that about a Basset Hound. I've never had one, but that is their rep.

I did have a dull dog once, and it is frustrating. To make matters worse, she tried very hard and was extremely sensitive to my attitude. If I started doing a slow burn, she would immediately shut down. There was no way I could put a happy face on if I was feeling stressed. She always sensed it.

The only thing I can tell you is to muster your self discipline and control your emotions, don't press a training session if things are not going to end on a positive note, and always end a session on a positive note. That may mean starting a session and, as soon as you see it's not going to go well, going to something the dog can do well.

The dog controls at least 80% of the training process.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> How do you deal with frustration in training two dogs with such different learning speeds and capacities? I'm afraid I'm getting really frustrated with the hound and it's not helping the training process.


I don't have two dogs, but the way Wally vascilates between learning fast and uh...duhhh it can seem like two dogs depending on the task at hand.

When that happens, I just walk away, often leaving what he could have gotten as a reward in the room - but out of his reach. He can sniff and "wish he had it" but has zero chance to get it.

After about 10 minutes, I come back in and try it again. Many times he's suddenly super eager (and learns fast) but sometimes the power is just out in his head. So I pack it up, "switch it off" as Gordon Ramsey would say, and just put him on his bed/crate and give each other a break from each other.

I try not to lose it - but sometimes, I have one of those days and "silently snap". Of course that has him following me around, sitting every time I stop moving.


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I have seven dogs, and they are all individuals when it comes to training. What I rely on most is proper management. There is no point in training for desirable behaviors, only to allow the dog to rehearse undesirable behaviors when you're not around (especially those as self-rewarding counter surfing, for example). That means the house is puppy proofed to the max (trash cans are put up and away, nothing of interest is left on the counters, things are picked up off of the floor, wires are well hidden, etc.) and some of my dogs are crated or baby gated when I cannot supervise them.

What sort of training method are you using? My dogs are all trained using a marker. Some of my crossover dogs had to spend a lot of time with shaping games like 101 Things To Do With a Box, and learning how to play before I could really get into training them anything, and then I had to be sure to keep a high rate of reinforcement. I learned that premacking behaviors can be very benefitial with distracted dogs. (Think: sit to sniff that bush, etc.) I suggest looking into Leslie McDevitt's "Control Unleashed" (http://www.controlunleashed.net) as well as Jane Killion's "When Pigs Fly" for more information.


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> I have seven dogs, and they are all individuals when it comes to training. What I rely on most is proper management. There is no point in training for desirable behaviors, only to allow the dog to rehearse undesirable behaviors when you're not around (especially those as self-rewarding counter surfing, for example). That means the house is puppy proofed to the max (trash cans are put up and away, nothing of interest is left on the counters, things are picked up off of the floor, wires are well hidden, etc.) and some of my dogs are crated or baby gated when I cannot supervise them.


There is nothing on the counters that's interesting. That's what kills me. I literally have nothing on my counters that's even edible. He's a basset hound which means that being low to the ground he can't see what's on the counters, but being a longer dog he can easily jump up and put his head up there. When he does his paws don't even reach the countertop and his head barely reaches over the top. He can't really get into anything up there, but I don't want him jumping up on the stove while I'm cooking for obvious reasons.

As far as training, I've been putting him on a long leash and giving him leash corrections when he looks at the counter and clicking/treating when he chooses to sniff the ground, chew a rawhide on the floor or anything else like that.


----------



## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> How do you deal with frustration in training two dogs with such different learning speeds and capacities? I'm afraid I'm getting really frustrated with the hound and it's not helping the training process.


Get over it and stop judging. Whether you know it or not, your attitude plays a huge role in how your dogs relate and respond to you. How would you respond to knowing that someone you're working with decided you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer? Stop comparing, and work with what you've got.


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Is there a window the dog can see out of if he gets on the counter? That may be what's reinforcing him if he isn't getting food or anything else up there. If not, being what he is, he's probably being reinforced by simply sniffing a place where there was food at some point. LOL

The problem I see with what you are doing is that you are punishing your dog in your presence, on leash, and for simply looking at the counter. That's a very different scenerio and behavior than when he is alone, off leash and getting on the counter which I'm sure he is able to sneak plenty of looks at inbetween training sessions without correction (inconsistency).

For their safety when we are cooking, I taught my dogs "out." When we are around the dogs can now be told to move out of a space or room when told, and stay out until invited back in. This was all done using reinforcement, no punishment. As for when you're not around, why not crate your dog for his own safety?

I also agree with Poodleholic. Thinking things like "Dumb dog, smart dog..." can really become a self-fulfilling prophecy. On the other hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V07k9vIEraY


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> Is there a window the dog can see out of if he gets on the counter? That may be what's reinforcing him if he isn't getting food or anything else up there. If not, being what he is, he's probably being reinforced by simply sniffing a place where there was food at some point. LOL
> 
> The problem I see with what you are doing is that you are punishing your dog in your presence, on leash, and for simply looking at the counter. That's a very different scenerio and behavior than when he is alone, off leash and getting on the counter which I'm sure he is able to sneak plenty of looks at inbetween training sessions without correction (inconsistency).
> 
> For their safety when we are cooking, I taught my dogs "out." When we are around the dogs can now be told to move out of a space or room when told, and stay out until invited back in. This was all done using reinforcement, no punishment. As for when you're not around, why not crate your dog for his own safety?


It may be that he is just sniffing where food once was. My counters are clean, but I'm sure my dogs can still smell food up there. Typically the dogs are outside or crated when I'm cooking. I'd love to be able to break this guy of the counter cruising habit somehow. He's not big enough to get up on the counter with his paws or anything though so I'm not sure an upside down carpet blocker or even a scat mat would really work in this situation.



poodleholic said:


> Get over it and stop judging. Whether you know it or not, your attitude plays a huge role in how your dogs relate and respond to you. How would you respond to knowing that someone you're working with decided you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer? Stop comparing, and work with what you've got.


I am a human, not a dog. I don't think dogs develop inferiority complexes.


----------



## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Here's what I would do: I would make the floor very, very, very rewarding. I would make standing with four on the floor very, very, very rewarding. I would be sure that the counters are spotless so that they are very, very, very boring. When you cook, I would make staying out of the kitchen very, very, very rewarding. Think lots and lots and lots of little, decadent treat jackpots. And when you can't watch your dog, manage him so he cannot practice the undesirable behavior. Notice the lack of punishment. Nothing is interesting about the counter. He's not even going to get negative attention out of it. (I've noticed that sometimes negative attention makes the desire that much stronger. My little Poodle often gets plenty of negative attention from our Boxer when he tries to take a ball from him, but all that does is create a frenzied Poodle over the ball which he then wants more than ever.) When you have time to watch your dog and you see him going near the kitchen, I would call him calmly and have him do something for you for a treat, then release him. Perhaps take him to his toys. Redirect and reward, reward, reward. Instead of focusing on what you don't want your dog to do, focus on what you want him to do instead.


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> Here's what I would do: I would make the floor very, very, very rewarding. I would make standing with four on the floor very, very, very rewarding. I would be sure that the counters are spotless so that they are very, very, very boring. When you cook, I would make staying out of the kitchen very, very, very rewarding. Think lots and lots and lots of little, decadent treat jackpots. And when you can't watch your dog, manage him so he cannot practice the undesirable behavior. Notice the lack of punishment. Nothing is interesting about the counter. He's not even going to get negative attention out of it. (I've noticed that sometimes negative attention makes the desire that much stronger. My little Poodle often gets plenty of negative attention from our Boxer when he tries to take a ball from him, but all that does is create a frenzied Poodle over the ball which he then wants more than ever.) When you have time to watch your dog and you see him going near the kitchen, I would call him calmly and have him do something for you for a treat, then release him. Perhaps take him to his toys. Redirect and reward, reward, reward. Instead of focusing on what you don't want your dog to do, focus on what you want him to do instead.


Good advice that I'm definitely going to try. Currently the dog is in the kitchen when he's inside because it's a hard floor so it's easier to clean if necessary and his crate is there and he hasn't earned freedom in the house. If he can't behave in one room, how's he doing to behave in the whole house I ask myself? Maybe I should let him jump on the counter a time or two and once he determines there's nothing there he'll give up. My struggle with him, like I said, is that he's a very slow learner.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I really LOVE Pampered Pups responses here. I think they will work if you can out persist the dog. Out persisting will take great patience and 100% consistancy on your part but not allowing the incorrect behavior to ever happen. How you do that is your call. 

Hounds are not used for obedience work for a reason. It is not that they cannot learn.. they can. It is that they are bred to do a job _independent_ of human commands. Their link to their nose is hard wired. 

I have heard all kinds of negative things regarding Bassett hounds from 'impossible to House break' (I loaned a crate to a neighbor with a Bassett he was trying to house train Their Bassett puppuy and it was returned 14 years later when the dog died.. never Could house break him..) to 'impossible to train.' I suspect the skill of the trainer coupled with the breed of dog. 

Bassetts are not Poodles or Cockers or GSD's.. they are who they are!


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> I really LOVE Pampered Pups responses here. I think they will work if you can out persist the dog. Out persisting will take great patience and 100% consistancy on your part but not allowing the incorrect behavior to ever happen. How you do that is your call.
> 
> Hounds are not used for obedience work for a reason. It is not that they cannot learn.. they can. It is that they are bred to do a job _independent_ of human commands. Their link to their nose is hard wired.
> 
> ...


Yeah, bassets are an interesting breed. This guy is housebroken with a doggy door at his old place. Doesn't have one here so I let him out on a regular basis and have had no problems with him in that department. There are definitely times when I think he merely tolerates my presence because I feed him and even then it's begrudgingly. Part of me wishes I had kept the basset I fostered as he was much, much more mellow and laid back than this guy is but I agreed to give this guy a nice place to retire. He has that, but to me it'd be nice to give him more.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Hounds are not used for obedience work for a reason. It is not that they cannot learn.. they can. It is that they are bred to do a job _independent_ of human commands. Their link to their nose is hard wired.


But they have to be able to take human direction, do they not, even if they are doing a job close to what they were bred for?

Whenever I hear "bred to work independent of man/humans - I always wonder, "then how do you get them to work with you?" They don't take directions - yet they will need some direction to know what the human(s) want, no?


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

KBLover said:


> But they have to be able to take human direction, do they not, even if they are doing a job close to what they were bred for?
> 
> Whenever I hear "bred to work independent of man/humans - I always wonder, "then how do you get them to work with you?" They don't take directions - yet they will need some direction to know what the human(s) want, no?


They just need trainers who understand what they are up against. Doesn't mean they are dumb at all, just means you have to give them a reason to listen to you. And if they don't then you are just not giving them enough reason to obey.


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

KBLover said:


> But they have to be able to take human direction, do they not, even if they are doing a job close to what they were bred for?
> 
> Whenever I hear "bred to work independent of man/humans - I always wonder, "then how do you get them to work with you?" They don't take directions - yet they will need some direction to know what the human(s) want, no?


Traditionally hounds hunt rabbits which they do with very little human assistance. The hound is let loose in a field and trails the rabbit. It's next to impossible for obvious reasons to teach a dog which scents are recent and which one's aren't, but given experience the hound learns which scent is the most current rabbit scent. So he proceeds on foot trailing the rabbit. The rabbit hears him and says, "Predator for sure, but it sounds like a hound so I'm in no big hurry." Rabbits run in circles so he will take off away from the baying hound in a big circle which eventually takes him back to where the hunter is who then shoots the hapless rabbit. The hound is normally about 50 yards away when this happens. This is what I've read in numerous books about bassets. So they are bred to work fairly independently of humans.

This is much different from a cocker spaniel (my other dog) who's a traditional gun dog. A field trained spaniel walks the field at his owners side. When the owner releases him the spaniel finds the flock of birds in the field and jumps them causing them to fly into the air where the hunter then shoots them. The spaniel then walks the field with his owner again or, if trained to do so, retrieves the shot bird and brings it back to his master. He's bred to work very closely with a human.


----------



## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> I am a human, not a dog. I don't think dogs develop inferiority complexes.


I didn't say they did. I'm talking about your ATTITUDE, and how you feel about the dog. Emotions not only travel down the leash, they fly across the room! If you don't get that your dog responds to how you're feeling, then you don't understand dogs at all. If I'm stressed, or in any way not in a positive state of mind when I'm training my dogs, I either go for an attitude adjustment, or I don't train, period.


----------



## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

KBLover said:


> But they have to be able to take human direction, do they not, even if they are doing a job close to what they were bred for?
> 
> Whenever I hear "bred to work independent of man/humans - I always wonder, "then how do you get them to work with you?" They don't take directions - yet they will need some direction to know what the human(s) want, no?


The big hounds will sometimes operate miles away from their "handler". A pack of hounds on the trail of a mountain lion or bear may go very far, very fast.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I, at the very least, feel you. All three of my dogs are on completely different wave lengths. My mutt is ridiculously smart. There isn't any thing she can't be taught. In just watching me from the sidelines attempting to teach our Elkhound to bow, she just did it. No luring, nothing. I just said "Jack, bow" while looking at my Elkhound, and she did it. 

My Elkhound? Big dumb. He's older and spent a lot of his life outside, so we give him the benefit of the doubt, but teaching him any thing is like pulling teeth. He at least learns eventually, unlike my dachshund, who I am convinced is mentally retarded. We work with these guys every day, and he still can't even sit on command. We'll think he's got it, and then twenty minutes later I'll tell him to sit and he just stares at me.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

When I foxhunted (back in the mid 70's) I can tell you there were hounds that responded to the Huntsman and there were those who did not. To train hounds they would "couple" the newbie to the experienced and reliable hound for the purpose of learning to respond to the Huntsman. The huntsman handled, trained and worked with the hounds at the kennel. Some huntsman (not on the hunt I was in) carried a Jack Russel Terrier or Fox Terrier ON THEIR HORSE for getting the fox shoud he "go to Ground." BTW in all the years of Fox hunting we NEVER caught a fox.... And it is OK because I, like Auntie Mame, would have likely rescued him and ridden off. 

Some hounds NEVER learned. Often they left the pack and went missing. Most were found and NOT returned to the pack for hunting OR used for breeding. They were rehomed or PTS (in early years they were PTS). Some were never found and/or never returned. 

As a member of Pony Club and (eventually) a member of the Hunt it was requested that we take Fox Hound puppies and train them in basic obedience to be returned to the Huntsman when they were about 6-8 months old. My parents would not allow me to do this.... 

When Beagling the training was similar. Again, this was a pack of foot beagles with a Huntsman working the hedgerows and thickets for rabbits. 

Having had hound experience I would not mind the challenge of training one, but I am not up to the challenge or owning one. I have had Bassett questions.. and I have always been tempted to respond, "Well, you WANTED a Bassett hound..."


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I, at the very least, feel you. All three of my dogs are on completely different wave lengths. My mutt is ridiculously smart. There isn't any thing she can't be taught. In just watching me from the sidelines attempting to teach our Elkhound to bow, she just did it. No luring, nothing. I just said "Jack, bow" while looking at my Elkhound, and she did it.
> 
> My Elkhound? Big dumb. He's older and spent a lot of his life outside, so we give him the benefit of the doubt, but teaching him any thing is like pulling teeth. He at least learns eventually, unlike my dachshund, who I am convinced is mentally retarded. We work with these guys every day, and he still can't even sit on command. We'll think he's got it, and then twenty minutes later I'll tell him to sit and he just stares at me.


I'm coming to the conclusion that my basset knows what he needs to do, but simply chooses not to do it unless there's something in it for him. I had a rawhide (which he absolutely loves) and was trying to get him to sit before I gave it to him. He tried for about 5 minutes to jump up and get it while I was telling him to sit. Then he tried running around me and trying to sneak up on it before I could yank it out of his grip. Then stopped, walked around me and tried jumping up to get it again. Finally, he sat (as I'd been telling him to do the whole time) and I gave him the rawhide. The look in his eyes said, "The stupid things this guy makes me do just to get a toy. It's so unreasonable."


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

KBLover said:


> But they have to be able to take human direction, do they not, even if they are doing a job close to what they were bred for?
> 
> Whenever I hear "bred to work independent of man/humans - I always wonder, "then how do you get them to work with you?" They don't take directions - yet they will need some direction to know what the human(s) want, no?


As others have said, many hounds are bred to give humans direction, not take it from humans. The dog-hunter relationship in the case of hounds -- where the hound follows the scent, and the hunter follows the hound -- is very different from that of dogs like Labs or Goldens, who take direction from the hunter. A Beagle, for instance, is hardwired to follow his nose even if the hunter thinks the hare has gone a different way..._he_ knows better. Likewise, a Husky who is being made to pull a sled across ice that he knows is dangerously thin is bred to follow his instincts and disregard human instruction. And, generally speaking, Labs and Goldens are a fair bit more trainable than Beagles or Huskies. 

See what I mean?


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

hulkamaniac said:


> I'm coming to the conclusion that my basset knows what he needs to do, but simply chooses not to do it unless there's something in it for him. I had a rawhide (which he absolutely loves) and was trying to get him to sit before I gave it to him. He tried for about 5 minutes to jump up and get it while I was telling him to sit. Then he tried running around me and trying to sneak up on it before I could yank it out of his grip. Then stopped, walked around me and tried jumping up to get it again. Finally, he sat (as I'd been telling him to do the whole time) and I gave him the rawhide. The look in his eyes said, "The stupid things this guy makes me do just to get a toy. It's so unreasonable."


I don't know what my doxie's deal is. It's almost harder in a way to teach him with treats because he gets so focused on the treat that it's almost like he doesn't hear me at all. He just stares at the treat, a big stupid grin on his cute little face, wagging his tail. We can't even lure him into a sit. Just keep staring and smiling. We had to start kicking my mutt out of the room because SHE was the impatient one. At first she helped guide my Elkhound and he would learn by mirroring her, but now she'll immediately do whatever I'm directing them to do, and if they don't do it, she just barks and barks like "Give me the treat, I can clearly do it!!"


----------



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I don't know what my doxie's deal is. It's almost harder in a way to teach him with treats because he gets so focused on the treat that it's almost like he doesn't hear me at all. He just stares at the treat, a big stupid grin on his cute little face, wagging his tail. We can't even lure him into a sit. Just keep staring and smiling. We had to start kicking my mutt out of the room because SHE was the impatient one. At first she helped guide my Elkhound and he would learn by mirroring her, but now she'll immediately do whatever I'm directing them to do, and if they don't do it, she just barks and barks like "Give me the treat, I can clearly do it!!"


Always train them separately. If they stare at the treat don't give it to them, try training them to focus on you. Look at treat = no treat. Look at you = treat.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> Always train them separately. If they stare at the treat don't give it to them, try training them to focus on you. Look at treat = no treat. Look at you = treat.


Normally, yes, but my mutt was a useful training tool for our Elkhound, so I let her stay during training. She actually helped him along light years ahead of where he was when we were attempting by ourselves. He was abused most of his life and lacked any confidence and trust. He feeds directly off her and for months would not do any thing without her by his side. 

I know when to appropriately give a dog a treat in training. We clicker train. I was just lamenting with the OP on training a dog who is less than cooperative than the rest.


----------

