# The UN-TRAINABLE DOG



## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

Hello.

I have a serious problem. I have been to trainers, I have read books, I have tried EVERYTHING.. and don't say I didn't.. because you haven't read this post yet...

I have a 4 year old Lab/CHOW mix. He's gorgeous. Wonderful with people. Gentle, loving, caring. His name is Max. 

BUT MAX WILL NOT STOP POOPING IN THE HOUSE.

It began to be just a random thing. I'd find a poop somewhere in the house.. point to it.. the dog would acknowledge his mess and then turn and avoid me. I have two dogs, mind you.. so telling the poops apart is a task.

There was no negative punishment at that point because it had happened too long ago to help the dog relate or understand.

I let it go. Walked my dogs as normal.. 2-3 times a day.. fed them on a normal schedule with vet-suggested amounts. Provided adequate water and vitamins on a weekly basis. (Just to give you a little insight.)

Then it began to happen more often. I'd get home from work (mind you, I'd walk them before I left).. and heres piles of poop in the house. Upstairs, downstairs. Kitchen, living room.

EVERYWHERE.

Urine puddles.

EVERYWHERE.

- - - - - - - - - -

It began to get much worse.

I'd leave for 5 minutes and he'd go before I got back.

Mind you, when I walk him he IS going to the bathroom.. in large enough amounts where one would think that there would be nothing left in there... NOPE!

I took him to the vet, had at least 20 blood and health tests done. I was worried maybe he was sick, or incontinent... 

nothing. Perfectly healthy.

The vet suggested go back to crate training. 

OK.

I buy a crate. Just the right size. He can sit down and stand comfortably, and turn around.. but not big enough to poop on one side and sleep on the other.

Max doesnt poop in the crate... but Max wants out of the crate.

He wants OUT so bad that he pushes and slams his face so hard into the edges of the crate trying to get out leaving bloody marks all over his muzzle.

I'd rather have crap all over my house than to put max in pain or see him do that to himself. So I got rid of the crate...

A week later.. I walk Max more often (6 to 7 times a day). Max goes less in the house... but that was just a fluke.

Then it began to be upstairs more often.. on my carpet.

The carpet was cleaned at least 11 to 15 times to get the stains and smell out. Finally back to new.

And then back to piles of poop again.. this time a little more loose.. ruining my carpet.

Now all the dog mess is completely upstairs.. no more downstairs. (I know.. I know.. dogs wont poop in their domain so they go somewhere else to do it.. Yeah yeah.)

I put up a baby gate at the entrance to the stairs.

He jumps it.

I put it higher.

He jumps it.

I put it higher.

He knocks it down.

Theres a bathroom to the right of the stairs.. I open the door so it blocks off the entire stairwell except for a 7 inch gap. Max pushes the door aside....

AND POOPS UPSTAIRS.

I put a latch and hook to keep the door from moving. Max SQUEEEEZES inbetween the door and the wall... poops and pees upstairs and comes back down and squeezes out.

May I also note that Max only poops in front of bedroom and bathroom doors.. nowhere else. Just in front of doors. Pinpoint..spot on.

So I add a 3 inch piece of plywood to make the gap between the wall and the door smaller.

He squeezes half way in, gets stuck, and DIGS to get out, tearing the carpet off my stairs in shreds everywhere.

So now the upstairs carpet is ruined, and so are the stairs.

I bring Max to a trainer. The trainer comes to the house. The trainer tells me she can fix any dog.

Needless to say, the trainer left 5 hours later telling me to get a SHOCK COLLAR because Max is ridiculously stubborn.

I got a second opinion from a different trainer.

Same thing.

Max doesnt listen. Max doesnt care.. Max needs to be shocked when he approaches the stairs so he learns not to go up there.

I tried this verbally instead of using a collar to deter him.. sitting there waiting for him to approach the stairs and telling him no.

I tried also when I caught him in the act of peeing or pooping.. giving him a firm NO and a scolding face (worked for my other dog).. nothing.

When the trainers asked me what I was doing with the dog.. and I told them.. they all said I was doing the right things to get him back on track.

So I buy the shock collar.

First time Max tried to go upstairs... ZAP!

Max got the idea.

It gives a warning beep before you get too close.

Not even 2 days later, after several battery replacements.. Max now hurdles and jumps past the entrace to the stairs, getting out of range of the shock collar.

Yeah. I returned that real quick.

So now.. I decide to put paper down. 

I give up.. 

I figure if I cant beat this game.. I'll play along. Easier cleanup for me.

It is my very last thought to ever put Max up for adoption. I adopted him a year ago and I refuse to give him up over this. I just want it to end!

So now the paper is on the floor...

Max avoids the paper.

Max pees on the clean tile floor.

Max goes upstairs, digs holes in the carpet and pees in them.

Poops in them.

I tear up the carpet upstairs, refinish the floor underneath.

Max goes up, pees and poops.

SOMEONE.

PLEASE HELP ME. 
*
PLEASE*.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

personally, i'd go back to the crate......don't know if you had a wire or plastic, but i'd reinvest in a good plastic crate and use it.....you may need to reinforce where the screws go to make sure he can't break out......

another thing that you could try, since he only goes upstairs, is Scat Mats on the stairwell....put them up the stairs further then he can jump, and make sure they go rail to wall.....

but the biggest thing that you have to do is STICK W/ WHATEVER YOU USE....until he gets the idea.....

the only other option is he goes outside and stays outside (which i personally don't like outside dogs.......)

this is PROBABLY the very reason that the old owners got rid of/dumped him.....

i hope this or someone else here helps......


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## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I agree tirluc with sticking with a method at least for two weeks before moving on. If you change it up, you'll never really see any benefit, most of the time if you just would've stuck with one of those methods a little longer you might see a small positive result. A little longer, some more results and so on and so forth.

I would also go back to crating. If he's not deficating/urinating in his crate, than it's clear he CAN hold it. Either crating, or if your not comfortable with that, proofing a small room even is better than just free roam.

Do you reward when he goes outside?

Correcting, even just verbally is on a very minute part of housebreaking. REWARD is the biggest most important. Make a HUGE deal when he does go outside. Whoop, holler praise and a jackpot of treats. Make going poo outside the BEST THING IN THE WORLD! So much so that he'll hold it until you come home so he can go outside and get treats and praise. Reserve the BEST treat for only going outside.

Crating, or a small room won't fix the problem but it will make clean up a lot easier at least. IMO, rewarding for going outside is going to be the biggest factor.

I'm glad you haven't given up, and kudos to you for trying all of those methods. Good luck


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I have tried EVERYTHING.. and don't say I didn't.. because you haven't read this post yet...


I have to admit it sounds like you've tried everything, but if you truly believe that and you think the dog is untrainable, what's the point of this thread?

I can't count the number of times I wanted to give up on my two teens. I wanted to say, "I quit!" or "You're fired!" (and they weren't particularly bad kids.) But you're not allowed to give up. Ever.

You're not allowed to give up on a dog, either, and I truly hope that others will have some suggestions for you (in addition to Triluc's ideas.)

Good luck to you.


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

LeRoy does the same thing in my house- but only when we leave. I seriously think it's some type of anxiety disorder.

Try spraying the spot Max pees and poops in with a mixture of vinegar and water. Youre house will smell like vinegar for awhile, but it's better than poop.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

How long has this been going on with Max pottying in the house?

What are you feeding Max? The reason I asked this question is because you said he poops large amounts. If you are feeding him kibble sometimes when a dog is fed a certain type of kibble that doesn't agree with the digestive system a dog will poop in large amounts and more then a couple of times in a day.

Ones a dog goes potty in the house (that as if the dog has no medical problems) you have to start right back to square one with potty training and you have to keep it up. I would get a different type of crate for Max and start crating him until you get this under control. Because from what I have read so far he is not confined while you are gone, you cannot control the pottying in the house if you are not home to see it happening. And since he will not potty in a crate that is a good start in getting control of this issue.


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## Cassie Nova (Dec 24, 2006)

I thought the same thing as luv4gsds. What are you feeding? 

Also, I agree with tirluc. You have to do the same thing for at least two weeks to see results. Don't get discouraged if he regresses a little- it's normal.

And last but not least- don't say your dog is untrainable. Think positive! You sound like you have done EVERYTHING and I certainly believe you and know this can be frustrating, but think positive! It'll help more than anything.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I would also try the crate again give him toys and chews while in there, making it a good thing. When out of the crate I would tie the dog to me so I know where he is all the time. Good luck


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

As a dog trainer myself, I agree with Luv4GSDs. The food you are feeding Max is more than likely the culprit here along with the fact that Max is pooping all over the place. I truly believe that once he did his business upstairs, he continued going back to his scent and there really isn't much you can do to get rid of that. You can try using an odor enzyme.
Crating Max is going to be your best help even if he bangs his head against it. If you still have the E collar, put it on Max while he's in the crate. When he starts the head banging, give him a mild stimulation and say "NO". If he stops, give him a little yummy treat. Continue doing this until the crazy behavior stops. I really believe his previous owners got fed up with his bad behavior and gave him up. I feel for you and I really hope you find a solution to this issue. Have you considered a behavioral specialist? Not for you, for Max. ;-)


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

threedognite said:


> As a dog trainer myself...
> 
> If you still have the E collar, put it on Max while he's in the crate. When he starts the head banging, give him a mild stimulation and say "NO".


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

It sound like your dog needs positive training! If you put an e-collar on that dog in a crate you will never get it crate trained.


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## ToysHaveMyHeart (May 9, 2007)

Do you free feed (leave the food out)? With all of the pooping in the house, it made me think of that. I tried free feeding my housetrained dogs and they would would have bowel movements at least five times a day (this only happened after the change, everything returned to normal after I stopped). A food with a lot of fillers and eating too much can also have this affect.

Also, putting an e-collar on a dog to crate train it is a bad idea, especially if he bangs his head on the crate. Shocking him is not going to calm him down.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

God Bless you for keeping up with Max. A lot of people would have given up on him or worse already. I agree with the scat mat idea. It sounded like the shock collar kind of worked, but who has time to sit and watch the steps until the dog decides to go up. The scat mats will cost a little but much less than new carpet. Good Luck. Some day you will look back and laugh. I hope.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Go back to the crate, be sure you have several XL kongs filled with peanut butter, kibble or apple sauce kibble mix and frozen. The kongs will sooth him and reduce the anxiety by giving him something to chew on. You also want to start crateing for only a short time and build up, this will help him understand this is not a punishment, but a good time for him. 

DO NOT use an Ecollar in the crate, it will give a negative association and, if this is anxiety based, make it WORSE. You may need to medicate if you suspect strong separation anxiety (which this sounds like to me).


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

It is weird to me how this person started this thread on the 12th and was here on the 13th but did not respond to anyone that answered to their thread.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Also, start giving him a treat for going into the crate. Give it through the rear of the crate. All praise and/or treats should be for going in and being good while in the crate, not for exiting. And, have a special crate only chew such as a kong stuffed with kibble and peanut butter and frozen.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

luv4gsds said:


> It is weird to me how this person started this thread on the 12th and was here on the 13th but did not respond to anyone that answered to their thread.


I think the OP has left the building.


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

I'm still here. Still reading, still trying. I work too much to sit down and write a response right away. I've been absorbing the things you've been advising. Expect a post from me probably tommorow with responses.


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## davehamilton (May 8, 2007)

Have you tried to give him meds for anxiety or to calm him down for a few hours. Just a thought.


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## Amaya-Mazie-Marley (Apr 15, 2007)

Are you crazy? Put at e-collar on a dog who already hates the crate?!? I would NOT do that. Its going to make the dog have even more problems with the crate.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

I would go back to the crate and work with him so he feels it's a good place.I would not take my eyes off of him and restart the house training. If this dose not work then i would put him out.I'm sorry but when it comes to my home or a dog my home will win(hands over)


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

A dog only has so much poop in him at one time. They can't manufacture poop at will. If he's pooping in such excessive amounts so often, he's most likely being overfed.

Have you tried feeding him smaller amounts or changing to a food that's lower in bulk?

All dogs bowel habits aren't the same. Some dogs, even when going outside will poop a little then do something else for awhile. They'll do this 3 or 4 times before they're completely finished. Other dogs will poop one big pile and they're done.

It couldn't hurt to go back to the basics of housetraining and keep him outside praising him every time he poops until you're sure he can't squeeze out one more turd.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

I'm not sure if someone has suggested this, as I don't feel like reading thru 3 pages, but why don't you put a small pillow against the door so when the dog rams the door it won't get hurt.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

lablover54321 said:


> i don't know how well this will work but try this... whenever you find a mess put his nose right in i, spank him, and put him outside. it worked on my friend's dog.


This is completely inappropriate advice.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

lablover54321 said:


> i don't know how well this will work but try this... whenever you find a mess put his nose right in i, spank him, and put him outside. it worked on my friend's dog.


This is outright abusive, and should NEVER be suggested on a forum.


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## lablover54321 (Jun 27, 2007)

i agree, me and my sister share an account and she was on today i think this advice is abusive and i would NEVER do anything like that. (my sister's friend got her dog taken away for abuse) so i would never post this inappropriate advice on a forum, dont worry, i will change that password so she cant gaet on anymore!



Cheetah said:


> This is outright abusive, and should NEVER be suggested on a forum.


i agree, me and my sister share an account and she was on today i think this advice is abusive and i would NEVER do anything like that. (my sister's friend got her dog taken away for abuse) so i would never post this inappropriate advice on a forum, dont worry, i will change that password so she cant gaet on anymore!


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

lablover54321 said:


> i agree, me and my sister share an account and she was on today i think this advice is abusive and i would NEVER do anything like that. (my sister's friend got her dog taken away for abuse) so i would never post this inappropriate advice on a forum, dont worry, i will change that password so she cant gaet on anymore!
> 
> 
> 
> i agree, me and my sister share an account and she was on today i think this advice is abusive and i would NEVER do anything like that. (my sister's friend got her dog taken away for abuse) so i would never post this inappropriate advice on a forum, dont worry, i will change that password so she cant gaet on anymore!


Just wondering if you own a dog? You may have said in past post but I didn't go back and read them.


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## lablover54321 (Jun 27, 2007)

Jen D said:


> Just wondering if you own a dog? You may have said in past post but I didn't go back and read them.


yes, i have a dog, but i NEVER have and NEVER will use that abusive idea on my dog. she is my favorite thing in the whole world!


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

I'm back!

Sorry I took so long to come back on, I've been extremely busy.

Here's an update..

I decided to take all of your advice and go back to the crate.

I purchased a plastic one this time to reduce the amount of injury he can cause to himself.

I had to coax him into going inside with treats, leaving the door open. Praising him when he does it. Giving him a positive feel of the crate. I put in a comfy blanket, a chew toy, and a towel that smells like me.

I put him in the crate several times with the door shut while I was home. Silence.. not a peep. No struggling, no complaints.

I left the house for the first time with him being in the crate for about an hour... when I returned the crate was on its side, CRACKED OPEN and Max had urinated EVERYWHERE including inside the crate.

I found him sitting on my $2,000 couch with urine all over the fur on his underside. 

I threw away the crate.

Another $85.00 down the tube.

I took Max to a different vet for testing to see if he had a urinary or bowel problem. Again, tests came back negative. He's completely healthy.

I went out and bought peepee pads. He urinated on it once, pooped on it another time. I slowly moved them closer and closer to the door, then OUTSIDE on the grass. 

He peed on the grass, which he does whenever I walk him. I went upstairs for an hour, and when I came back down he had made a VERY large urine puddle all over the dining room floor. 

This would make the 72nd time I have taken my dining room apart, scrubbed, mopped, bleached and dried the floor in that room. I kid you not, I have done it 72 TIMES.

I bring a pocket full of treats, sometimes even real meat cuts to encourage him that his eliminating outside is a positive thing. 

I have also reduced his amount of food and water to the lowest amount possible without starving him. 

He has now taken to doing anything possible to get into and eat from the litter box. My cat is allergic to clay litter so I need to use wheat. So now he not only likes to eat the poop from the catbox, but now its even more of a treat because theres wheat in there. Whats worse, it makes his poop smell absolutley horrible and you cant pick it up because it falls apart.

No matter what I do, he gets to the litter box. I put furniture in front of it, he climbs it, moves it, shoves it, or chews it.

I am slowly running out of patience. If I cannot fix this, I'm not sure what else I can do. I may actually have to consider putting Max up for adoption.. my fear is that no one else will want to deal with his problems and try to have him put to sleep. 

Can someone please give me any other advice?!

I can't take this anymore!!! My other dog was so well behaved and hes starting to pick up habits from this dog now!

HELP!!!

- - - 

To give you more insight into his personality, for instance.. he's not allowed to beg for food.

I make something to eat, he comes up next to me, I say NO BEGGING and point to the other room (my other dog walks away and stays away). Max turns around, steps away for a moment, looks back, and comes back to me. I dismiss him again, he walks around the couch behind me to the other side and comes to see if I'll consider feeding him from the other angle.

Again, NO! and dismissed.

He walks around to the other side of the kitchen, dissapears for a moment, and shows up on the other side of me again asking for food one more time.



He's extremely defiant and has issues listening when


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

You need help beyond what we can offer. You need a certified professional to evaluate your in-home situation. All I can gather from your post are your frustrations and none of that is going to help find a solution. It's sounds like you've given up, and you need someone to offer you frank advice given his living environment. He could very well need to find a home better suited for him, but without a professional assessment, I'd say it's premature.


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## lidermar (Jul 25, 2007)

3 options retry the crate for at least 2 weeks or make the dog an outside dog and the next time you bring him in you put the leash on and secure him on a mat or next to you. You should not let the dog out of your sight. Why not install a doggie door in the laundry or similar and close the door so the only option is poop in the laundry or for them to go in and out as an alternative

I'd rather the dog be an outside dog than pass the problem on to someone else. The type of food you give is not the issue but you can try a change of diet to be sure.


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## TheChinClique (Jul 6, 2007)

As hard as it will be, this dog MUST be crate-trained. If you can't crate train him there's a very slim chance that he'll ever be housebroken. Get another plastic crate and build a wooden "box" or buy one that you can slide the crate into to make it extremely sturdy. I've never heard of a dog cracking open a crate...so you're going to have to make it as sturdy as possible. Like I said, I honestly don't see this dog becoming housebroken without crate-training. Keep him in the crate any time you cannot watch him and as soon as you can let him out, put a leash on him and take him outside immediately. When he does his business, reward him with a treat and with a lot of praise. Putting up a baby gate or putting down paper will not solve the problem. I don't really think you need to spend more money on another trainer...you have to find a way to make the crate STURDY so he can't escape, then follow through with taking him outside immediately and praising him like crazy when he does his business. I can't think of any other method that will work. It sounds like you have a huge problem on your hands and I really hope it'll work out after the heck your dog has put you through.

Good luck.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

I am with CP on this one. The dog in question sounds like he has some separation anxiety issues. We can give you advice on what type of technique to use but to give you a good solid foundation to work with you will not help from a certified professional.


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## Nikole1984 (Jul 29, 2007)

I had problems with my chow/lab mix too...I changed her food and got a crate. She HATED the crate at first, but now goes into it on her own half the time...usually when the kiddos are too loud-my stepdaughter has mastered the shrill little-girl scream and Raven can't STAND it...so she goes in her kennel to get away. It's turned into her own private space. The door is always open and if she goes in there nobody is allowed to bother her. If the kids get too close to her kennel she'll actually try to pull the door shut with her teeth and lock herself in there willingly lol. Sometimes you just have to be INCREDIBLY patient. There's days where all I do is fantasize about rehoming Raven, but I don't plan on ever going through with it.


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## Pawsies (Jul 30, 2007)

My input is that you should stop with the crate. He doesn't like it and is obviously not happy with it. It does sound like seperation anxiety but I would sort out the toilet problem first.

Here is what I'd do:
Take him out every 30 mins and after he has eaten/drunk/slept. Take some really good treats with you (but don't let him see them), wait until he eliminates. Once he does, YAY! So happy! Don't leave him unsupervised (except for sleeping) for about a week. Make sure you know where he is. Keep taking him out every 30 mins. It will have to get better, he just doesn't understand right now. If it doesn't, I'd advise getting a friend's dog over provided your dog isn't territorial. When the friend's dog eliminates, make a big fuss. He will probably want some attention too, so he should eliminate.

I would have advised crate training but seeing as it isn't working, I wouldn't put stress on him.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

One way you could keep track of him while your home is leashing him to yourself. That way he cant do anything while your there without you knowing it.


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

The main reason I dont want to do a crate again is because of how he injures himself. His muzzle is still scarred from all the effort he put into getting out of the metal crate. He shoved his face so hard at the edges of the crate trying to get out that he cut himself to the bone. He will stop at NOTHING to get out of the crate when no one is home.

He is peeing on the pads now. I cant call that progress but its something.

Another problem is with my job and the hours I work, different people walk him at different times. 2 out of the 3 that walk Max praise him with treats. The others just let him eliminate and return home.

He goes plenty outside and then all over again inside the house.

On a side note, the second vet I went to said he may be suffering from depression.

Just thought you'd like to see Max and his brother Oreo being normal goofs trying to get attention from me when I get home from work....










Oreo is the black and white Canaan. Max is the tan Lab/Chow mix. 

I love my boys!

Also,

I keep forgetting to answer the question of what type of food. Max and Oreo both eath Nutro (Natural Choice) Adult Lamb Meal & Rice. Prior to this they were eating Adult Dental Care also by Nutro.

They are both served the same amount as both dogs are the same height, weight, and age range.

They like it! Ive tried other non-filler foods but it just made their poop smell horrible and they had gas for days and days. YUCK!


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## AmyB (Aug 5, 2007)

Have you tried foods such as Innova EVO or Orijen Adult. Those are 2 of thee best foods and should produce smaller, harder, less smelly stools. 

Also you may want to talk to your vet about traquilizers. That may help with the crate. You and your dogwalkers could give him the nessesary doses throughout the day. That is what our Vet gave us for our dog because he was NEVER calm. And while we were gone he would just bark constantly, my neighbors could hear him barking and we have single family homes on 1/2 acre -1 acre lots. I didn't have to ever give them to him because I ended up becoming a stay at home mom but I would have done it. 

Another option may be putting him in doggie daycare and then when you bring him home keep him on a short leash attached to you. Anytime you cannot have him attached to you he should be outside. The key is to not even let him have the opportunity to go in the house. I don't know if you said that you have one or not but you should build a covered kennel outside unless he is okay to run in your fenced in yard.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

Dogs are opportunists so the fact that he keeps trying to get you to give him food when you're eating is not unusual.

Frankly, from this most recent post, it sounds as if Max may have a severe case of separation anxiety. If I was you I would talk to your vet about putting him on some medication for this. And, along with the vet prescribed meds I'd use a homeopathic remedy such as one or more of the Bach Flower Remedies (perhaps Rescue Remedy). The homeopathic remdies won't interfere with the prescription remedy.

If by throwing out the crate you mean you tossed it into the garage or something and it wasn't actually damaged, I'd get it out again and start all over. I think you tried to go too fast in your effort to re-train Max to accept the crate. If he's on meds for SA and you go slower trying to advance from one training step to the next in the crate training you both might easily succeed this time.

The only other alternative I can think of right now is to build an outside run with a shade top so he can't climb/jump out and, if he might try and dig out, either a cement flooring or some chicken wire buried under a few inches of dirt along the inside of the run's fencing. That way he could be put into the run when you have to leave the house. You would just have to be sure he had plenty of water and some shelter such as a nice dog house.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php/product/1007/sort/2/cat/all/page/1 You might find this site informative. You'll note that Nutro Natural only rates 2 stars out of a possible 6.


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## wolfy (Aug 9, 2007)

Firstly, well done for sticking by your dog and trying to work through this situation. I feel for you.

I have a number of suggestions to be used together. The situation has clearly escalated to one of mammoth proprtions and is unlikely to be solved overnight. If you really want to get to the bottom of the problem and cure it, it will take lots of time, patience and consistency. This doesn't sound so much like a training problem as a behaviour problem, so I will recommend a variety of things in order to deal with all opssible aspects of the situation.

It sounds very much like your dog is suffering from some sort of anxiety. Doing anything to make him more anxious, such as correctional type collars etc, will most likely make the problem even worse. (Even in normal situations stress, fear and pain all cause physical and hormonal reactions in the dog which inhibit learning ability and memory - making training even harder!)

Part 1: The crate.

Quite frankly it sounds as if you dog is likely to severely injure himself trying to get out of a crate - no amount of pee is worth that risk. For the time being, forget the crate and just try to protect you floors.


Part 2: Housetraining.

I would strongly suggest going back to basics. Take the dog outside frequently - after meals, first thing in the morning, las thing at night and everywhere inbetween. Find a reward that your dog highly values and praise massively every single time your dog toilets outside. When you find mess in the house, IGNORE it (as far as the dog is concerned). After-the-fact punishment does not work as the dog can not relate the punishment (even just a cross word) with something it did earlier. Make sure all messes in the house are properly cleared up so no smells linger as these wil draw the dog back to the same location. If you do happen to catch the dog in the act, interupt him, take him outside and reward when he goes there.

Part 3: Training.

The second thing I would suggest is doing some basic obediance training with your dog. Use only positive reinforcement methods - you want to build his confidence, not destroy it. Practice every single day, you could even go as far as NILF. It might be worth attending some classes, but ONLY if you can find a good trainer who will not expect you to resort to correction. Clicker training may be particularly helpful - it makes training easier for the dog to understand and most dogs work harder because they enjoy it. One word of warning - if you decide to try clicker training read up about it before you start - many people don't understand how to use a clicker properly. 

One command I would particularly concentrate on is the "down stay". Start gradually, from the basic down, to a short down stay and eventually build up to the dog being able to perform a down stay while you go out of sight. This should help to build up the dogs confidence with you not being immediately present.

Part 4: Systematic desensitisation:

It sounds as though your dog seems to have the greatest problem when you are absent, which would indicate some form of separation anxiety. To overcome this you need to get the dog used to being left alone so that it does not stress him out. This has to be done VERY SLOWLY - I really can't emphasise this enough. If you try to move too fast the dog will become stressed again, and you may have to start right back at the beginning.

Here is the general idea....

Max almost certainly recognises the signals that indicate you're about to leave and becomes frustrated or stressed. When you have to leave the house, ignore the dog for the last five-ten minutes before you go. When you get home completely ignore max for the same amount of time. No talk, no eye contact, nothing. After a reasonable amount of time, and only when max is behaving, call him and pet him.

Start with simple "fake" leavings. Get your coat on, pick up your keys, whatever you normally do - then sit back down and don't go anywhere. Repeat - a lot! After many repetitions Max will realise that those signals that used to stress him out are now meaningless. Once you have reached this stage, where Max pays no attention to your getting ready, move on to the next step. This time, go to the door, open it and close it again before sitting back down and staying in. Repeat until Max is no longer bothered by this event. The next stage is to walk through the door, close it behind you, then immediately open it and go back in. Repeat until this is not a problem. Then move on to staying outside for a efw seconds - literally just seconds. Keep building up, VERY slowly, the amount of time you are out before going back in.

If at any point Max becomes distressed, go back to a stage he felt comfortable at and stay at this level until you are sure he is ready to move on.

This will take a while, maybe weeks, and many, many repetitions of every little stage, but eventually Max should be able to accept you leaving without becoming distressed.

Part 5: Hormonal help:

If you can find one I would recommend trying a DAP (Dog Appeasing Pheromone) diffuser. These work like a plug in air freshener but release a chemical that mimicks the pheromone released by lactation bitches to calm puppies. Used in conjuction with other behaviour therapy (such as systematic desensitisation) DAP can be very effective at keeping dogs calm and reducing unwanted stress-related behaviours.

Part 6: Is he bored?

It sounds like Max is always on the go, and trying to find ways to occupy himself. I personally think the house soiling is more likely to be anxiety related - but when looking at his other behaviour problems, he may also be bored.

If this is the case you could try to increase the amount of exercise and mental stimulation he gets to keep him amused. Obvious suggestion would include giving him a stuffed kong, or feeding him his normal dry food in an activity ball so it takes him longer to eat. More, better walks and training will also help to keep his body and mind occupied. A bored dog is a frustrated dog, and a frustrated dog becomes a naughty dog.

Part 7: Further help.

Whether you try out my suggestions or not, consistency is the most important part of anything you try. This problem may take weeks to solve. If nothing seems to work, you should probably seek professional help from a qualified animal behaviourist (not a trainer). Check their credentials first - the should have lots of dog training and behaviour experience and be suitably educated - for example have a degree in animal behaviour. Make sure you are happy with a behaviourist and approve of their theories and methods before letting them near you dog.

Sorry this post has been so long, but I wanted to give you all the help I could. I wish you the best of luck! Please keep us updated.


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## IslandMutts (Jul 23, 2007)

if you need to leave the dog alone in the house and the crate obviously isn't working (i can't believe he cracked it open!) then maybe you can leave him in one room of the house with the door shut. this would at least confine the messes to a smaller area until you can work out his behavioral/medical issues. if you have a tiled bathroom that might work, although try it out first without leaving him in there too long. he might damage the door to the bathroom trying to get out, but at least it saves your carpets and floors in other parts of the house. People have given you some great advice here, best of luck.


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

I really appreciate you taking the time to write all of that down for me. It's printed and on my fridge where I can refer back to it when necessary. I'm going to try what you suggested.. and I'll keep you posted on the progress.

Thanks!



wolfy said:


> Firstly, well done for sticking by your dog and trying to work through this situation. I feel for you.
> 
> I have a number of suggestions to be used together. The situation has clearly escalated to one of mammoth proprtions and is unlikely to be solved overnight. If you really want to get to the bottom of the problem and cure it, it will take lots of time, patience and consistency. This doesn't sound so much like a training problem as a behaviour problem, so I will recommend a variety of things in order to deal with all opssible aspects of the situation.
> 
> ...


In response to IslandMutts....If you only knew..

I tried confining him to the bathroom a few times. Left toys, a soft playing radio, and a towel that had my scent on it in there to keep him comfy.
This worked for a few days just fine. No whining, nothing.

One day after coming home from a short trip to the store I heard a faint noise from the bathroom.. and as I approached the door.. little pieces of wood were slowly making their way out from under the door.

MAX WAS CHEWING THE DOOR FRAME OFF.

Both sides of the doorframe, the doorknob, the lightswitch had all been chewed. The doorframe had the worst of it.. 2 inch deep chunks and pieces of wood everywhere. $300 later my doorframe is finally back to normal.



IslandMutts said:


> if you need to leave the dog alone in the house and the crate obviously isn't working (i can't believe he cracked it open!) then maybe you can leave him in one room of the house with the door shut. this would at least confine the messes to a smaller area until you can work out his behavioral/medical issues. if you have a tiled bathroom that might work, although try it out first without leaving him in there too long. he might damage the door to the bathroom trying to get out, but at least it saves your carpets and floors in other parts of the house. People have given you some great advice here, best of luck.


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## IslandMutts (Jul 23, 2007)

omg! wow he chewed the doorframe off!


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## poohlp (Jul 10, 2007)

This is not unusual I think. It is often a sign of separation anxiety. My dog does this if left outside even though he is now fine when left inside in a crate. Your dog thinks that if he can get out of the room, he can get to you. He doesn't know you're not right outside the door.

You know, I'm never one to medicate a dog - in fact I'm generally against it. But if you don't have a case for puppy prozac, I just don't see who does. Maybe some medication would calm him down long enough for you to teach him some new, more positive behaviors and build up his confidence. Then, once he is more comfortable in his skin, so to speak, you could wean him off it.


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## Dobermaniac (Jul 28, 2007)

I didn't read through all your posts. I have a question. Does all the house soiling occur when you are not home or when your off somewhere in the house away from the dog? If so, this supports seperation anxiety. I also, believe you said your vet said your dog may be depressed? That is usually a result of seperation anxiety. Eightyfour gave you some great advice and I think you need to follow that.

Ideally, a dog with seperation anxiety should never be left alone until retraining has been accomplished, but this is often difficult to arrange. What you need to do is rebuild your dogs confidence and maintain a stress free environment. Continued exposoure to the cause of that fear or anxiety will only reinforce behaviour. 

In the mean time I think you need to find a room in your home, which can be covered in newspapers to avoid alot of mess. Also, make sure he has lots of toys to keep him busy and occupied. This way you will restrict him from messing up the rest of your house. This isn't a soloution but a way you can keep him from getting into trouble until one can be found. 

Also, I think you need to switch your dog from Nutro. Try getting a better brand of Kibble. Canidae, Solid Gold, Orijen etc... 

This site can help you with that.

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/


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## gone2thedogs (Aug 12, 2007)

First of all, BLESS YOU for sticking by this dog. In a world where people surrender their pets for the slightest mistakes, you are truly one in a million.

Secondly, I agree whole-heartedly with the previous suggestion to seek out an animal behaviorist, NOT A TRAINER. (Be careful, many trainers will cavalierly refer to themselves as behaviorists when they are not.) Here is an article that describes the difference:
http://canines.com/library/news/doineed.shtml
Your vet should be able to give you a reference to a behaviorist. If not, your local humane society or vet school can probably give you some leads.

I hope you and Max will find the solution to his issues. Please give him a pat for me.


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## john tran (Dec 22, 2006)

props to you bro, i would have taken old yeller out weeks ago


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

Well, it's been over two weeks since Wolfy's suggestions..

I've tried DAP, a new crate, walks more than 8 times a day, slow and patient training, rehearsing leaving, puzzle treat ball, peanut butter kong, and hidden snacks, and even spoke and had sessions with a very costly dog behaviorist.

Not a single step of progress.

Max now craps in the house more than ever.

In an attempt to make his horrible habit of eating from the cat litter box a little friendlier on his stomach, I switched to wheat litter. (Trust me, theres no way to stop him from getting to his favorite snack. I tried moving it from room to room but the cat can't find it and ends up crapping on the floor. So I thought I was clever.. put the litter box safely perched on top of my entertainment center's left tower where my Cat could easily jump to get in and do his business but FARRR above where the dog could reach... so It hought... I came home to find my 5-foot tall entertainment center tower tipped onto the floor, a broken $1000 home theater system, cat litter everywhere, and a very full, guilty and hiding Max.)

Not to my surprise, the dog found the new wheat flavor cat s*** more enjoyable and now eats it like a second meal. Instead of solid stools, I now find piles of mushy, wheat/corn filled diarrhea. Max has lost a considerable amount of weight (down to 45lbs.. he was almost 60lbs) because of all the wheat litter intake and quick output. I'm slowly fattening him up again with a little extra snack here and there and plenty of vitamins.

Needless to say I've switched back to clay litter and nearly scared the living crap out of Max when I caught him poking his nose near the litter box. The cat now has to do gymnastics to get inside as the catbox opening faces almost flush with the wall. The cat slides in sideways and then out. I have 2 very heavy cinderblocks on top of the box now so it cant be moved.

My roommates are sick of walking the dog so much.

He tore the dap dispenser off the wall (its a plug-in) and chewed the bottom half off. Yeah real calming... a $45 electric chew toy.

Speaking of chew toys.. goodbye iPod Nano, headphones, new tv remote, and wallet.

New crate? History. Max now has a 2 inch deep gash on his face from shoving his nose so hard against the crate to get out. He didnt escape this time but cracked my floor to ceiling mirror where the crate was near from rocking it so much.

Another $200 in repairs. Thanks Max.

Still havent gotten the carpet put in upstairs in fear of him crapping on it again.

He now jumps two gates, stacked almost 5 feet tall.. goes upstairs, gets the bathroom door open and drinks the entire toiletbowl of water... and urinates it out downstairs all over the floor.. making sure to miss the training pads.

My house smells like urine. My baseboards are stained yellow. Theres newspaper and puppy pads from wall to wall. The realtors were supposed to come this week to appraise the property so I could sell it.

Cancel that.

I can't even invite friends over anymore.

The dog behaviorist was in awe of all the mess I've been in. When she saw the house, the behaviors, and the damage she immediately asked me why I continue to go on like this?

And I ask myself the same question. I work 73 hours a week.. Max doesnt deserve to be alone for that long inside of a house. My other dog (Oreo, Black & White Canaan) is well adjusted and gets along just fine with the cat in the house.. he waits to go outside, potties on spot when told, and doesnt make a sound. Max is just a rebel.

Eating from the trash can, ruining furniture, destroying homes. A michief maker.

Total damages: $3,120.00

*Max is now up for adoption to a loving home* who is willing to take care of a special needs dog that has a large, LARGE yard where Max can crap his freakin' brains out all day long and no one will EVER have to mop it again. I will have a very strict screening process ahead of me... my final chore for this dog. I really do love my handsome Max, but I can't take it anymore.


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## oscars mum (Aug 29, 2007)

My dog did the same thing for an entire year and if i shut the door he would do his business at the door -i brought a dog repellent spray and sprayed the room 3x a day for about a week-that was about 2 months ago he hasnt pooped in there since.the brand is vita-pet and costs about $20NZ


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## Barhund Canine (Aug 28, 2007)

I am in aggreement with everyone here. Go back to the crate and stick with it. Find one that doesn't have a wire door or put something on the door to cover the door so he doesn't tear his face up. Do not give in to him when he wants out of the crate, he will learn that if he throws a big enough fit you will let him out. Feed and water him in the crate, walk by and give him treats while he is in the crate only if he is not throwing a fit. If he is being good in the crate give him a treat. If you are worried about his welfare while in the crate ask your vet to put him on something to calm him down until he gets used to the idea of a crate. You can also find good aluminum crate that are just about bullet proof. They are expensive. 
Control every facet of this dogs life. If he keeps breaking down the barriers or jumps over them digs around them. Put him on a leash and keep him with you the entire time you are in the house, tie it around your waste if you have to. Do not let him have freedom in the house. If you do not have the time or are able to watch him put him in the crate. Put him on a feeding schedule and take him out a few minutes after he eats, then every half hour and encourage him to go potty when he does go praise him and take him back in the house. If you cannot keep constant attention on this guy he is going to continue what he is doing. I seen a pattern in your statement, he does this when you leave for a couple minutes, or you turn your back etc. If you do correct him you will have to catch him in the act or when he goes to squat or hike his leg. A couple of seconds after he does it the correction window has closed. 
You've had him to the vet to rule out physical and neurological problems, you've talk to trainers and everything else. I have been able to fix dogs that no one else has been able to. I am often the dogs last chance before euthanization. 
I understand your frustration, I have dealt with quite a few dogs like this. Don't feel alone, this is what I have found to work. It will probably take a lot of time, patients and courage on your part. You will have to discpline yourself and educate yourself and be willing to change if you want this dog, and to follow a very regimental program for this dog. It is a lot harder to correct a bad habit than to prevent one. Try not to let your emotions take over. I know that it is a very stressful situation.

Feel free to contact me to discuss this. I am willing to do this free of charge because I do not want to see you loose your mind or give up the dog if you are still willing to deal with him.

My Contact info

John Corbett
Barhund Canine Behavioral Services
www.barhundcanine.com
email [email protected]
phone 330-687-7922


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

I work 73 hours, 6 days a week. I barely have time for sleep let alone to walk the dog any longer with my new job.

Max doesnt deserve to be kept up in the house like that.

All my roommates moved out because they couldnt take the stench anymore.. so theres no one home to walk him now besides me.

Whats worse, I cant even show my house anymore to sell it because of all the damages. I've spent thousands on repairs so far because of all the damage that Max has caused. 

Most recently, he has peed near the air-handler upstairs so now theres the lovely scent of urine blowing from every vent in the house. It wont go away, either.. I've tried everything to clean it.

Also, I have to drive home almost 30 minutes every 3 hours to walk the dog and make sure he hasnt destroyed anything else.

I really have no time and patience after spending over a year with Max trying to make this work. Its only been getting worse, not better.

Max needs a home with a large yard and a dog door where he can go outside and do his business without anyone letting him out. 

I really, really love Max but if I was to continue tending to his needs 24/7 I'd lose my job and my sanity. 

I've reached the end of the road with this one.


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Wow, I am sure sorry Max has such a problem. We all try to help our furry friends to any extent, but we all have our breaking points, and I sure understand where you are coming from. I envy you for sticking it out as long as you have, you really do have a big heart and show how dedicated you are. It sounds like you need the official Dog Whisperer..really..I wonder if you could submit your story and try it..why not? I don't know how you would do it, but obviously others have problems as well, so... I think he may have had a problem with his previous owners putting him in a crate, or closed in area, maybe,,since he really freaks out while in there..enough to destroy it even. It does sound like separation anxiety disorder also. I don't have any other advice..it really sounds like you have researched and tried all the ideas given here. I sure hope everything works out for you and Max, please keep us posted, and the best of luck to you


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

shell07 said:


> It sounds like you need the official Dog Whisperer..really..I wonder if you could submit your story and try it..why not?


Uh oh.


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Is there something wrong with that suggestion?


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## Portiparent (Aug 29, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


>


Dont put the collar on him in the crate it will make it worse. He may stop the head bashing, but his feelings about the crate will still be the same and that emotion will probably come out in a different behavior. I would also use the crate and put a "kong" in it and fill it with something yummy, even his own dog food, which you have added water to and frozen, so it lasts longer. You are putting him in there when he is tired (you have run the crap out him) and hungry!! Try it should for a short period of time. As far as the gate jumping goes, be in the room with him where teh gate is adn when he goes for it yell "AH" and clap hands loudly, when he turns or even simply pauses, tell him "yes" and give him a cookie. Hang in there.

Sorry Eighty, didn't read your last post before I wrote. If thats the decision you have come to, its probably for the best.


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## Val (Jul 27, 2007)

eightyf0ur said:


> I work 73 hours, 6 days a week. I barely have time for sleep let alone to walk the dog any longer with my new job.
> 
> Max doesnt deserve to be kept up in the house like that.
> 
> I really, really love Max but if I was to continue tending to his needs 24/7 I'd lose my job and my sanity.


I haven't responded to this thread because frankly you were getting great advice without me butting in. Also, it sounds like you tried just about everything there is.

I'm writing now more in a supportive measure than a helpful one. I've stated in previous posts that I've had dogs all my life. All different kinds from Shepards and Dobermans to Chihuahuas and Poodles and everything in between. My mom was a dog nut when we were growing up and we were never without a dog (or 2 or even 3). I continued that into my adult life.

Fifteen years ago I meet my match though in a Border Collie named Laddie. The story is way too long to go into here but I too ran into a time in my life where I was working VERY long hours and being that he needed *SO* much and I just couldn't devote the time he required, we had to give him up. I felt bad about it but sometimes it just can't be helped. Don't let anyone make you feel bad about your decision - I'm SURE it's not made lightly. Good luck.

Val


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Wow I am exhausted from reading that post. I feel awful for you. I have a tiny 5 pound puppy that is only 9 weeks old so trust me poop and pee have become my life. But I can't imagine at that age and the amount of poop you are talking about. I wish you the best of luck and hope and pray it all works out for you and Max.


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## Shannonp73432 (Apr 3, 2007)

Okay, this is going to p!$$ some people off but if your going to fire at me just wait until I get my eyes closed.

It absolutly sucks when you feel like your out of options with your dogs. I know I have been there. There once was a time not so long ago (pre poopy and peeing doxie) that I would have said that this was rediculous and any dog can be trained to do anything. At least yours holds it in the crate. The little doxie would pee and poop on his pillow and then lay on it, while in his crate.  I am now a wiser person thanks to the doxie.  

I tried everything just as you have. I finally came to the conclusion that some dogs are just not meant to be house dogs. Just like people some dogs have different preferences and abilities to do different things maybe (as with my dear little doxie) he's just not going to make a house dog. I'm not saying to rehome him I am just saying think about your needs and his and do what you feel is most fair to both of you. *A Big Hug to You for Your Patients With Him* 

"Okay," *closes eyes* "fire away." 

Shannon


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

shell07 said:


> Is there something wrong with that suggestion?


There are a lot of people on here who don't like Cesar or his methods, and a lot of people who love him. Nothing wrong with it, it just tends to take over the thread whenever something like this is mentioned.


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Well, I do apologize to whomever did not favor that suggestion about the Dog Whisperer..not trying to upset anyone, just merely a suggestion I threw in the pile


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Bah. No need to apologize, just wanted to warn ya before it got started.


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## Barhund Canine (Aug 28, 2007)

You have done a lot, and a whole lot more than anyone else probably would have. If you really do not have the time, and you are at your wits end. It is best that you find him a new home. You definitely tried and should be proud of your efforts.


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

Will everyone who would be willing or able to take on this dog and his problems please raise their hands!

Please believe me, I honestly do understand completely the legitimate reasons why no one on these boards can take him.

We already have too many dogs, don't have enough time or money, live too far away, just got new carpet, no fenced yard, not enough experience and the list goes on...

What makes any of us think that out there somewhere in the world of rescuers is *any* individual that wouldn't have a valid reason not to take on this dog?

To rehome him or take him to a shelter is to sentence him to death as surely as if you had him euthanized yourself. The only difference is that you won't have to feel the same amount of guilt as you struggle to convince yourself that a perfect home miraculously popped up out of nowhere.

The real truth is; a dog with this many behavioral problems is destined for the needle as sure as the other nine million dogs are that are put to death in shelters every year. It's just going to take a little longer for him to get there via the rehoming or shelter route.


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

Well thank you very much for making me feel a million times worse than I already do. I was trying to avoid thinking about that fact but you have just wrecked the sh!t out of me with stress.

Nonetheless, I have to do this.

Max is laying here quietly next to me, sleeping. He has no idea whats coming ahead for him.

In the adoption ad, I clearly specified that he is a very special needs dog and that if he was not able to be dealt with at any time, no matter how long the person has had the dog, I am willing to have him returned to me if necessary.

My intent is for Max to have a long, happy life, even if he has no control over his actions. Even if it means being stuck with him forever. I am sure someone out there will have better luck with him than I did. All animals behave differently when out of their element, so I'm sure he'll have all new surroundings and people...and maybe learn a thing or two. Who knows. I'm willing to take that chance.

Just to give you an idea of what an animal lover I am.. at one point I had 26 birds, 4 dogs, 5 cats, guinea pigs, etc.

A FREAKING ZOO.

I would go to the ends of the earth to save an animal (You should see me when I find lizards in my house or in stores. I stop at nothing to rescue them and bring them outside!!! Or kittens! God how many kittens I've rescued, bottle fed at all hours of the night and then adopted out.) 

Thankfully all my animals were adopted to new, loving homes and sanctuaries.. except for a select few (including Max) have become permanent parts of my home and life.. with the exception of some things. 

He was out of control and there was nothing else I could do about it. End of story.

I'm thankful I'm not one of those people who put their dog down because it wont behave. 

I love Max but this is best for him and for me.. and my sanity. I have two interviews this week with some very promising people, including a retired dog vet who said she's willing to take on a challenge. She's got 4 acres of land and is home 95% of her day.

Thanks to everyone who was so wonderfully supportive during these difficult times for me and Max.

I'll keep you posted!

- Joel




applesmom said:


> Will everyone who would be willing or able to take on this dog and his problems please raise their hands!
> 
> Please believe me, I honestly do understand completely the legitimate reasons why no one on these boards can take him.
> 
> ...


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

Sorry, my post wasn't meant to upset you but rather to inject a note of realisim into the situation.

You've done everything humanly possible to "fix" him yourself and nothing has worked.

It simply isn't realistic to expect someone else to take on a dog that rips up carpet, tears down doors, won't be confined, jumps five foot high obstacles, manufactures more poop and urine in a day than his own body weight and revels in spreading it around the house.

I wish Max nothing but the best, and sincerely hope you find him a home where he'll get the attention and behavior modification that he so desperately needs. But realistically; the chances of that ever happening are slim to none.


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Joel, please DO keep us posted on Max and his outcome. You do what you have to do, and what will work best for you and your situation. YOU have done, soooo much more than I am sure most others would have, thank goodness Max has had you take interest in his life, and give him the love, attention and patience that you have. You have to look out for yourself in a realistic way and do what is best for you..I have 3 dogs, 3 cats and 2 lizards, plus many others that visit here, and I LOVE them all to pieces, but you have to know YOUR limit. I honestly would probably be adopting him out as well if it were me because of my pets I have had for years, and I wouldn't want him to influence the others either. You never know if they could pick up the negative habits also. The way I see it, you are doing what will be a better choice for you and hopefully a better situation for Max, with someone who will have more time to spend with Max watching him almost every moment of the day. Don't let other people make you feel bad about your decision. In a perfect world you could snap your fingers and all would be well, but as we all know it is NOT perfect. Good luck with your interviews this coming week! Shell


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I'm not an advocate for dogs taking drugs, but if you've had a certified behaviorist evalute the dog, have you scheduled a vet appointment to look into drug options? 

I'm not against you rehoming the dog, it doesn't sound like you have the time to improve the situation, but if you've invested this much into the dog, are you willing to calm the dog with drugs?


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Oh boy, did I get tired from reading your post!!!! And I thought our Dominoe was difficult to housetrain!!!!! Yipes!!!


My main suggestions...

Get a good sturdy kennel...no cheap investment here; you may have to search high and low for one he can't tear apart, or really injure himself on. But find one, and when you put him in it for the first time...plan on leaving him in it, with toys, treats, music on, and just let him throw his tantrum till he stops, and gets used to being in there. Eventually he will learn that this is now his 'den'. He is no longer allowed free access to your house. 

When he is in your house, from now on, as well, since you know, that it does no good to trust him even after he has gone to the bathroom, he is now on a leash at all times; no exceptions. Treat him like he is acting; like a 5 week old puppy who has no control over his bladder or bowels. He must follow you everywhere, he has no free reign. 

If you have to be gone for a long period of time during the day, perhaps it would be a good idea to put him into dayboarding, or doggie daycare; or perhaps build your own escape proof run if you don't have one; that way you can further 'enhance' his "you have to go OUTDOORS" skills.


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Hey, has Joel posted anything about his situation with Max? I just wondered if maybe I had missed a post? I have been thinking about him and Max and just hope it all worked out for the best since we all had given our own advice and nothing had worked...


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## RichmondTrainer (Sep 24, 2007)

How exhausting! I think I need a nap after having read this thread!!  

Joel, you have, as everyone has said, gone above and beyond what most dog owners would have. I realize this thread is a bit old - I guess some people are still asking about what's going on?? I'd like to know, too!

I'm a dog trainer, not a behaviorist (although I'm leaning in that direction... I have a degree in Psych, so behavior is the part of dog training that interests me the most!) If you've contacted a legitimate behaviorist (it sounds like you have,) and this is still impeding your life so very much, then yes, rehoming is probably the best option for both you AND Max.

You have, I believe, reached the end of your rope, and have come to a pretty good realization here.... you don't have the time to handle this dog. Most people wouldn't. I'm hoping the vet/someone else worked out?? 

Best of everything to you and Max. You'll both be in my thoughts.


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Hi All, I "spoke" with Joel..He has 1 possibility (out of 5) for a new Dad for Max. He is taking care of that at the moment, and will post us with the details soon. Just so ya'll know what is happening. Thanks, Shell


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

As if there wasn't enough problems.. I now have even more wood added to the fire.

Max now has a severe case of worms from feasting on cat poop from the litter box and is losing weight fast. Who is going to adopt a dog with worms who looks like he's been starved?

Thanks to all the damage in my house I barely have enough money to cover even half of his vet bill which will probably cost a fortune. 

Is there ANYONE here that can suggest an in-home treatment for worms that can cure him? I can't afford another dime of medical treatments, tests, or care for Max. I'm almost broke. Max is acting and behaving healthy and hasnt shown any medical signs of illness besides being very skinny. Just this week I was able to see his ribs! This is scaring the hell out of me and I don't want Max to die. Just a visit to most vets down here for testing is way out of my budget. Theres got to be some way to help him without spending a fortune!?!?

Im afraid to try home remedies without knowing what works or not. HELP!


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Hey Joel, what kind of worms are they? Tape, hook, round? I am not sure if there is a home remedy that could wipe out all types or not..I have heard you could feed your dogs tobacco to be rid of them, but honestly I am not sure if that is a good tactic or not..anyone else know??


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

I havent seen any worms as of yet in his stools and he hasnt vomited so I cant tell with that either. He's just showing some of the signs of worms. Loss of weight, strange appetite & eating habits, etc.

If this isnt worms, is it because of the cat litter/cat poo he's was eating? He's still getting to the box once and while.. he's also taken to eating small seeds that the bird knocks out of its cage. Could the cat litter be making him sick? he's had really runny or loose stools lately and very very rarely tiny amounts of blood, but i think its because hes going so loose. Havent seen blood in a while.

Should I try to fatten him up?



shell07 said:


> Hey Joel, what kind of worms are they? Tape, hook, round? I am not sure if there is a home remedy that could wipe out all types or not..I have heard you could feed your dogs tobacco to be rid of them, but honestly I am not sure if that is a good tactic or not..anyone else know??


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

Have you tried to apply for the "Care credit card"? www.carecredit.com

It is a credit card that can be used only for Doctor visits, Vet visits and such. Even with my bad credit, they gave me a $2000 credit line with a 6% APR. IT has been a life savor for my fiancé and I. My fiancé had to have his wisdom teeth pulled at the cost of $1500 (which we have NEVER had saved up) and then when Carter got sick we put $200 on it that otherwise we couldn't have afforded.

If you are looking to just rehome your dog, you might want to consider taking him to your local dog shelter now. If he has worms, it’s a lot easier to take care of now then later. They can give him the treatment and find him a new home, and it depends on the animal shelter, but I know the ones around her only want $25 to take in your pet. Now is the time to act. You’re not going to fatten him up if he has worms. No way at all. You need to be responsible now and take your dog to the nearest shelter and give him up if you can't get the care he needs. He’ll be better in the long run if you do. You’re only prolonging his suffering by not getting him the medical attention he needs.


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Joel, is Max still eating his regular kibble? It may be something in the litter that he is ingesting that could be making him sick. OR, maybe his body is needing some kind of additive that it isn't producing itself and that he can't get from his kibble? I had a dalmatian that would eat the sheet rock walls in our laundry room because she was lacking something in her diet (years ago), and she was pregnant at the time, the vet had told us her body was lacking nutrients. Maybe he is tired of his kibble? If he is going so far as to eat the bird seed off the floor as well that may be a suggestion..


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## meeegun (May 8, 2007)

joel,

i hate to sound the alarms, but a dog who is losing weight with loose/liquid stools with some blood could indicate a blockage. with all of the clay cat litter you say he has been eating, this is a definite possibility. the only way to know is a visit to the vet for x rays. also, if he has worms that means your cat would have worms as well. i have been reading this entire post and there are a couple of things that i would like to ask you. first off, people have mentioned many times about medicating your dog. you never seem to give a response to this, do you have a reason why you would not be willing to try this? even if you want to rehome him, getting him on meds to help control his behavior is going to be a positive note for the new owners. IMO, its worthwhile to look into. also, another person recommended doggie day care, why not try it? he would not be left at home nor crated while you are gone at work. lastly, if none of those options are appealing, why not keep him as an outside dog? does he jump the fence or ram the back door? i think you have given it more than the old college try, but these were just some questions i had after reading your post.


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## eightyf0ur (Jun 12, 2007)

UPDATE!

Well, we've moved finally to our new home. And just as I suspected, it threw Max for a loop and his behavior has changed DRASTICALLY! It's almost like having a new dog. No familiar smell or territory. I started fresh and right. We have an open, fenced back yard that Max can sh*t his brains out in with no complaints from me. I'm off to get a doggie door this week so he can go outside at his leisure. The cat box is high and away from where Max can access.. and as for the weight problem.. it looks to be fixing itself. Max is pooping solid again with no sight of worms (not that there was before) and eating normally. He looks to have gained some weight and continues to increase daily. I suspect the worms was just me being paranoid. My cat has no worms.. why would my dog?

As for feeding and watering. he's fed once daily with scattered treats and given controlled amounts of water (if I give him to much he'll just pee everywhere again cus he cant hold it). The amount of water I give him will gradully increase as he gets better control of his bladder and bowels.

Max holds it until hes let outside now (and hes let out 5-7 times a day with the ease of opening a sliding glass door) and does all his business outdoors. We had one, small puddle in my new office carpet.. but it was cleaned immediately so there was no stain or damage. Not sure which dog did it but it hasnt happened again. 

Only problem now is Max is getting into the garbage can again. If I put the garbage can behind the pantry door he'll do what he did back at the other house.. push the door open and knock the can over to get at the goodies. If I lock the pantry door he'll chew on it until he can get through the door (not kidding  ).. even though he's been fed a LARGE dish of his own food. What can I do to stop him from getting in the garbage (it only happens when im not home or in the middle of the night).... Max is deathly afraid of the vacuum..so I put it next to the garbage can.. but apparently hes not that afraid of it when its off since he went right for the trash again.

Getting this solved (and not coming home to half-eaten garbage everywhere) may be the final step and may actually sway me to keep Max.. but only if his behavior continues to improve like it is. He's still stubborn, though. But I can deal with that.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Go to your local fleet farm and pick up a tube of Equimectrin, and Safeguard; both in the horse section; Give him one dose of the Ivermectin (equimectrin) now, and then in a week give him a dose of Safeguard. In another 2 weeks, rotate back to the Equimectrin. If after these three doses he has not perked up, there may be something else wrong with him; but these two wormers should knock out any possible worms he has. He could have also picked up the worms from your trash as well...otherwise, I would be worming the cats too, if you suspect that they are the culprits; worm them with the Safeguard only, as they cannot have Ivermectin. 

I would get him some safe chew toys, and perhaps a different trash bin; one he can't get into, or destroy if he tries...or even put your trash in your garage when you have to be gone and unable to watch him. 

How are his potty manners coming along? Are you making any head way?


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

I saw a TV show where the dog was getting into stuff he shouldn't and they put an alarm near the trash can. So ever time he went near it it would go off and the dog stopped going there after that. You can try that or if he is afraid of the vacuum, wait until he goes near the trash and then plug it in. In time, he may just not want to go in the trash if he associates the noise with the trash.


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

Hey Joel,

I am so glad things are looking up! I agree with putting the trash can in the garage. It seems like he needs to have something to keep him occupied--he is so focused on things! I think the doggie door is a great idea as well! Make sure you spray the spot where the puddle was with an enzyme cleaner, to make sure that scent is GONE..you don't want to start all over again with the prior problems..What happened with your one new Dad possibility?


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## Addison (Oct 4, 2007)

I don't know if anyone else has posted this idea ... ( I read through most of the post but not all) Try creating Max, But do it slowly. Start with putting his toys in their and then give him treats when he goes in the crate. Try this for awile (with out ever shutting the gate). After he is use to the crate, let guide him into the crate and close the gate and give him a treat. (do this several times, until he is comfortable). Then after that try leaving for short periods of time (5 min or so) and coming back and letting him out (giving him a really good treat). Then increase the time he is in the crate. Hopefully this will help.


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

My 90 lb. lab used to get into our garbage in the garage. Finally my husband went to Home Depot and bought this huge bin with a lock on it and that's where the garbage goes. I can't tell you how many times before we got that thing I would walk out to my garage to find trash everywhere! It was disgusting. That solved t he problem though. We actually had to lock it because he could open it.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Ella'sMom said:


> My 90 lb. lab used to get into our garbage in the garage. Finally my husband went to Home Depot and bought this huge bin with a lock on it and that's where the garbage goes. I can't tell you how many times before we got that thing I would walk out to my garage to find trash everywhere! It was disgusting. That solved t he problem though. We actually had to lock it because he could open it.


Gotta love those smarty pants dogs!!!Lol!!!!


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## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

About the Ivermectin...this can be purchased at any feedstore or even at Walmart in the horse section...it's about $13 for a tube last time I checked. It is really effective for worming, we used this on our horses (all 49 of them) along with Safeguard...
I just read through all these posts, all 9 pages...and I have to say, Kudos to you! I had a border collie that did the same thing exactly...except I lived in an apartment and he tore up my carpet, ate my bathroom door, and even started getting brave enough not only to soil my carpet when I wasn't looking, but began doing it right in front of me. I would walk that dog until I was tired of walking (a good 2-3 miles) with no avail, he'd come inside and within 2 minutes crap on my carpet. I would tell him "NO" and when attempting to interrupt his bad action, he bit my hand when I tried to put his leash on him (a few curse words and 3 stitches later, I was fairly calm about all of this) Along with the carpet, he ate a shower mat, a bath rug, 2 bars of soap, the cord of a curling iron, and numerous other things, so I know your frustration to a T. I did end up rehoming my BC, he went out to a friend of mines ranch to herd cattle, and loves it...he may not have the pampered house life, as he now lives outside with a couple other cattle dogs, but he has a good life. 
You have the patience of Job...I cannot say I have the same....good luck and hope the improvements continue.


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## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

I dont think there is many dogs that are beyond hope, but there are many that are not suited for a certain lifestyle no matter how much WE want it. As we rescue dogs, I get to evaluate allot of them and decide where they would fit best and quite often the people that come looking for a dog fall in love and disregard it. Once you have the dog, there is a certain bonding and you feel like "a failure" for having to find a new home whereas it may be the best thing in the world for the dog. I congratulate you for not giving up and it seems like you have found what he needs. As for the trash- might leave it where he simply cant get to it- thats what I do- why set them up for temptation if its so much easier to set them up for success? I would not have thought that this Rottie we have now would be suited for a lifestyle with horses and surrounded by chickens and kids but she is great and it shows me - once again- that I still have allot to learn from my dogs. Had a lab here that went into hiding when she saw water  she hated water- made me laugh  I hope it continues for you on this positive note and everything will work out for the both of you


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## Roo (Jun 11, 2008)

I know this is way old, but I just read thru all the posts... WOW what a mission, I dont know if I could have gone thru all that... and I know my partner wouldnt have.. I was wondering how Max was going?


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## shell07 (May 20, 2007)

I had sent Joel a private message (a few months back) on how Max was doing in their new home, and hadn't gotten a reply so I know nothing as well..the only thing I can assume (hope) is "no news is good news"?? If anyone has heard please let us know! Thanks! Shell and Junior


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## Hillary (Aug 13, 2008)

I just read through all five pages. You are so patient! I am glad you moved to a place with a yard and that things are working out for now.

FYI, I am having a similar problem with Kero my Miniature Schnauzer. She poos and pees all over the place but only when there is no one at home.

I've tried installing a gate about five foot high and she stays in there like the good girl that she is. But the moment we leave, she panics and starts jumping. Within seconds, she will be out and peeing/pooing all over the place.

Our best solution so far

1. Make sure the floor is not carpeted (easy to sweep and mop)
2. Make sure the couch is wrapped in leather, not cloth (easy to wipe off)
3. Take turns to go out as much as possible so that she is rarely left alone at home
4. Keep the trash can out of reach so that her stool won't be the diarrhoea kind
5. Point to the mess and reprimand. This is a bit hard to do because she is SOOOO thrilled when we get home and the last thing we want is to reprimand her straightaway
6. Be patient when cleaning up the mess each and every day. 

I feel for her because she is terrified to be left at home alone. She is very affectionate. When we are home, she will lean her body against ours as much as she can. *sigh*


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Hillary said:


> I5. Point to the mess and reprimand. This is a bit hard to do because she is SOOOO thrilled when we get home and the last thing we want is to reprimand her straightaway


Over and over on this forum and on this thread it has been pointed out that this method does not work. Dogs do NOT relate your disapproval with a mess they made minutes, hours or days b4 you show up. 

CRATE
CRATECRATECRATECRATE......

And if the dog breaks out of the crate for $500 you can get an aluminum Dog Box that is unbreakable. Cheaper than carpet, couches, door frames, doors, tables, chairs, new floors (the list is endless). 

If the dog is so stressed that crating and dog box won't work, you may have a deep seated separation anxiety issue which may need meidcation, behavior modification or, as a last resort, re homing and as a very last last last resort PTS. Yes. For some dogs SA can be bad enough that nothing works and that can be the last last last resort and the kindest choice. 

Also, there is a book called "Crate Games" where you can teach the dog that a crate is a good place.


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## Hillary (Aug 13, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Dogs do NOT relate your disapproval with a mess they made minutes, hours or days b4 you show up.


Hi Elana, thanks for sharing. To be honest, I am quite sure my dog gets it even if the reprimand is delayed for hours. She is very good at keeping it in control when we are at home. 

It's just that when there is no one home, she panics and out it comes.

I am not keen to crate her as I'm not sure how being in a dark little box will help alleviate her fear of being alone. I am concerned that it may make her even more afraid. 

Furthermore, if she soils the crate and starts to jump around on her own poop, I can imagine how dirty she'll be by the time I'm home to let her out.

I would rather pick up poop daily than bathe her daily. She haven't taken to destroying furniture so it's not as bad.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

Hillary said:


> Hi Elana, thanks for sharing. To be honest, I am quite sure my dog gets it even if the reprimand is delayed for hours. She is very good at keeping it in control when we are at home.
> 
> It's just that when there is no one home, she panics and out it comes.
> 
> ...


Hillary...the dog doesn't get it. There is sooo much science behind the fact that dogs don't have the same type of learning that humans do. If they knew, she wouldn't keep doing it. You can't actually think that you have the ONLY dog in the world that can utilize critical thinking on the same level as humans . 

Furthermore, I couldn't imagine allowing my dogs to continue to poop and pee in the house and just clean it up...daily. no way. Roe had an accident in the kitchen ONCE when she was about 5 months old and I freaked. You can ask the BF. Who knows...maybe I'm just anal retentive or ocd...but I wouldn't be able to continue to allow the dogs to use my house as a toilet. It's unsanitary and unhealthy for everyone. Your house is full of e-coli if this is the case. For your own health...please work on this.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> Hillary...the dog doesn't get it. There is sooo much science behind the fact that dogs don't have the same type of learning that humans do. If they knew, she wouldn't keep doing it. You can't actually think that you have the ONLY dog in the world that can utilize critical thinking on the same level as humans .
> 
> Furthermore, I* couldn't imagine allowing my dogs to continue to poop and pee in the house and just clean it up...daily. no way*. Roe had an accident in the kitchen ONCE when she was about 5 months old and I freaked. You can ask the BF. Who knows...maybe I'm just anal retentive or ocd...but I wouldn't be able to continue to allow the dogs to use my house as a toilet. It's unsanitary and unhealthy for everyone. Your house is full of e-coli if this is the case. For your own health...please work on this.




I had an EX bf who did this with his dog.... for years... of course you miss some and the poop was ground into the carpet.... Some people don't mind i guess.... I know i do.


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## Hillary (Aug 13, 2008)

Mac'N'Roe said:


> It's unsanitary and unhealthy for everyone. Your house is full of e-coli if this is the case. For your own health...please work on this.


Hi Mac'N'Roe, I sterilize every soiled area with Dettol every day. Not sure if you have Dettol over there. In South East Asia, Dettol is a commonly used disinfectant that kills 99.98% of all germs.

You are right that we need a more long-term solution though. In three weeks, someone will be moving in with me who will be at home when I am not so Kero won't have to be home alone.

Am optimistic that this new arrangement will solve everything.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Hillary said:


> Hi Mac'N'Roe, I sterilize every soiled area with Dettol every day. Not sure if you have Dettol over there. In South East Asia, Dettol is a commonly used disinfectant that kills 99.98% of all germs.
> 
> You are right that we need a more long-term solution though. In three weeks, someone will be moving in with me who will be at home when I am not so Kero won't have to be home alone.
> 
> Am optimistic that this new arrangement will solve everything.


Hillary, I use Dettol frequently over here and even though it does work well as a disinfectant, it is by no means enough to sterilise your home from being pooped on every day.

I would also like to assure you that dogs do not understand what they are being punished for if they are reprimanded for something even half an hour after doing it. This has bee proven in experiments over and over again and is one of the fundamentals of dog training.


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## BandPipe (Feb 19, 2009)

I also think it could be the food. I know everyone has their opinions on what is best etc. I really like an all natural kibble. I would try to switch and see if that makes a difference. I also wonder if you should bring him to doggie day care during the day when you are not home. The reason I say this is because it sounds like you have already spent hundreds of $$$ if not more. This way you know Max is being exercised etc. and someone with him all day and not pooping/peeing on your floors. Maybe even half days to give you a break. 

Perhaps, Max is in need of guidance from another dog. The doggiecare would also help with this. Or, if you know of other dogs that he gets along with that you could 'borrow' or 'dog sit' for a week or two. It may be worth a shot. 

You are in a very tough situation, it makes it very difficult and frustrating. Hopefully, you can find a solution soon!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Thisi s an old thread and the problems have been resolved.


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