# The most powerful training tool in the world is...



## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Used properly, you can teach your dog anything. Once they understand what a click means, it becomes a communications bridge between you and your dog.

I just taught my dog to touch a post it pad where ever I stick it. Did this in 5 minutes. I was so amazed how quickly she learned it that I just wanted to share with everyone who may be getting frustrated training their dog.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

I have never used a clicker before, but I hear a lot of people use this method. I just use treats and praise.....


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

never could understand the concept of the clicker....what ever happened to simple "YES! Good dog!" treat....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Is the *tool* who is in charge of all the other training tools.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

So that's what a clicker looks like  Interesting invention.

I'll keep it in mind, so far I think Ilya can read my face and knows when I'm not happy. Lola, our angel terrier/mix, has never been caught doing anything wrong and will do most tricks we taught her so far.

Cute dog  Is she still a puppy?


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Interesting way of describing the clicker as "a bridge to communicate with your dog", accompanied by an example of how fast your dog learned something. 

I signed up for the free email training thing about clicker training. 

As another poster said, my dog knows several tricks and is quite well behaved with the exception of the "lunging at strangers" and chasing after squirrels, but I guess there's always room to try new things. 

If we didn't adopt that attitude we wouldn't be cooking with microwave ovens and watching HDTV.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

tirluc said:


> never could understand the concept of the clicker....what ever happened to simple "YES! Good dog!" treat....


Yes and good are markers which are similar in theory to a clicker. A clicker is just more consistent in the delivery of a sound that the dog hears. When one says yes, the tone, length can be inconsistent. A click is a click, consistent and clear to the dog. I just find she learns faster with it. Give it a try.



JustTess said:


> So that's what a clicker looks like  Interesting invention.
> 
> I'll keep it in mind, so far I think Ilya can read my face and knows when I'm not happy. Lola, our angel terrier/mix, has never been caught doing anything wrong and will do most tricks we taught her so far.
> 
> Cute dog  Is she still a puppy?


Thanks, she is 8 months old now.


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

I clicker train occasionaly but, never saw a real difference in the click sound vs. me just syaing Good dog, haha.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Pepper said:


> I clicker train occasionaly but, never saw a real difference in the click sound vs. me just syaing Good dog, haha.


How did you use it? Have you taught your dog anything complicated?


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

Yeah I have, but I just used good dog as the target, sometimes I fergot to grab the clicker, and it's not like I'm going to remember it every time I go out into the real world.


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## jesterjigger (Dec 12, 2008)

I've been using a clicker to teach my puppy to sit, lay down, stand, shake, and touch things. It's amazing watching her pick things up with it. When we were working on touch I would ask her to touch something brand new and she'd either touch it right away, or go through and touch the five things we'd already been working on first, then the new item. I never "charged" the clicker, just started clicking when she did what I wanted, but as soon as I click the clicker her head whips around to me, not matter what she's doing. 

We've just begun learning stay. She's only 13 weeks, so I'm trying not to push her too far, but she eats it up. Her favorite parts of the day are our short training sessions.


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## wizer (Dec 23, 2008)

Pepper said:


> Yeah I have, but I just used good dog as the target, sometimes I fergot to grab the clicker, and it's not like I'm going to remember it every time I go out into the real world.


That's what I was wondering..what happens when the dog is so used to it that you can't be without out it. Its something else you have to always carry around?


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## jesterjigger (Dec 12, 2008)

The dog doesn't know or care if you have the clicker or not. But when it hears the click it knows that the behavior was correct, so it's quicker to repeat the behavior the next time. If you just depend on *your* timing you might reinforce the wrong behavior, or the dog may be slower to connect the behavior with the reward. Plus the clicker is a constant, it always sounds the same. 

You can also make a clicking noise with your mouth, or even use good girl, etc. But I tell my dog good girl so often it doesn't have the same importance as a click, which she gets right before a piece of dog food.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Westhighlander said:


> Used properly, you can teach your dog anything. Once they understand what a click means, it becomes a communications bridge between you and your dog.
> 
> I just taught my dog to touch a post it pad where ever I stick it. Did this in 5 minutes. I was so amazed how quickly she learned it that I just wanted to share with everyone who may be getting frustrated training their dog.


That's a simple one. I'm now teaching my Betty to weave between my legs. She got one leg down in 10 minutes, then the other leg in 5 minutes. Now I'm working on chaining them to gether into longer chains. All using the clicker. I tried it without and couldn't get her to understand. But she's learning about 70% faster with the clicker using Shaping. And it's also how she learned High-5 and Gimme-10 so fast.



Westhighlander said:


> Yes and good are markers which are similar in theory to a clicker. A clicker is just more consistent in the delivery of a sound that the dog hears. When one says yes, the tone, length can be inconsistent. A click is a click, consistent and clear to the dog. I just find she learns faster with it. Give it a try.


Another thing to add, you can make a click sound with your tongue on the roof of your mouth. I've used this technique as well when I forgot the clicker, and is just as effective.


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## sherrymyra (Mar 24, 2008)

Westhighlander your puppy is so cute. Just had to say cause I have a 1 year old.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

wizer said:


> That's what I was wondering..what happens when the dog is so used to it that you can't be without out it. Its something else you have to always carry around?


A clicker is a bridge, once you have crossed to the other side meaning the dog understands what sit is then you don't need it. The clicker is used for "explaining" new things to your dog before you associate it with a word.



sherrymyra said:


> Westhighlander your puppy is so cute. Just had to say cause I have a 1 year old.


Thanks! She's a great puppy.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

It's a nice concept but it's not for every dog.. 

My dog doesn't really like it. I had VERY inconsistent results using the clicker. It scared her at some times, excited her at other. Yet, in obedience class a couple of weeks ago the trainer introduced the clicker to those who hadn't used it before and my damn dog started looking around as if to say "ohh what's that?!?!"

I use "good girl" as my marker. Yeah it's long, it's not as quick as "yes" but my dog doesn't have any trouble and I am just sooo used to using it.. since I've had her (6 months) we've accomplished sit, down, stay, come, wait, up (standing up), paw, other paw (although it only works one way), touch, take a bow, bang!, roll over, watch me, gimme a kiss, and we are now working on jumping over obstacles and spinning in a circle. So I think we're doing just fine, even with the clicker collecting dust in my living room  We've done a lot of loose leash work/some heeling and also some alternative target exercises, like targeting paper and feet. LOL

Clickers have a lot of good uses though and I wouldn't be opposed to using it as a training aid with any other dog I may work with in the future.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

I have never used the clicker before. I thought about trying it, but found it much easier just to say "Good boy" which is said in the same amount of time as the clicker clicks. Lol.

I guess I prefer saying good boy because I want Hunter to know how proud of him I am and how excited I am that he got what I wanted him to. He's had no trouble and is a very quick learner. He got Paw, within a day (3 hours spread out) and had rollover in the same amount. I also use the good boy method with outside training on stay, down, 'get him', fetch, 'find him', and other police training methods.

Clicker training is great and I think many dogs can benefit from it. I guess I'm just content where I am because...well, it works now...so why change it? Lol.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

K9companions said:


> I have never used the clicker before. I thought about trying it, but found it much easier just to say "Good boy" which is said in the same amount of time as the clicker clicks. Lol.
> 
> I guess I prefer saying good boy because I want Hunter to know how proud of him I am and how excited I am that he got what I wanted him to. He's had no trouble and is a very quick learner. He got Paw, within a day (3 hours spread out) and had rollover in the same amount. I also use the good boy method with outside training on stay, down, 'get him', fetch, 'find him', and other police training methods.
> 
> Clicker training is great and I think many dogs can benefit from it. I guess I'm just content where I am because...well, it works now...so why change it? Lol.


Because it is more efficient. I did paw in 5 minutes then move on to high five the next day and did that in a few minutes. Not saying my dog is smarter than yours, but you may be able to accomplish things more quickly.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Efficacy: Clicker vs. Verbal Marker: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1960


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## Snoppykins (Dec 19, 2008)

For those few that have not tried a clicker, get one and teach your dog something new and see how fast they pick it up!

I taught Sai to sit in 3 minutes with the clicker and treat! I also taught him to lie down, and speak and now we are doing Spin. Oh and stay!

Dogs learn 50 % faster than without it. Once you have used one it makes so much sense as to how and why it works verses us just typing about it


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## Snoppykins (Dec 19, 2008)

Here is my Blue Clicker! I have a red one also. It looks different than the other clicker that was posted 

I didnt know they had different kinds!

Have you ever gone to click and it was upside down, or you tried using the hand you normally do not use and your responce time was snail speed


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Snoopy - I don't use the box clickers like that unless I'm working with a dog in a really loud place or at a distance outdoors. Many dogs don't like the loud CLICK they produce and they are easy to get backwards in your hand. The first clicker pictured, the iClick, is available from Karen Pryor's website www.clickertraining.com It is quieter and the way it fits in your hand and has a raised button tends to prevent you from having it backwards making your clicking that much more efficient. Also available is the Clicker+ which is battery operated and can produce several digitally optimized variations of clicks, including chirp, ping and trill sounds. There is also the Clickstick, a target stick with a clicker built in and much more.


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## Snoppykins (Dec 19, 2008)

pamperedpups said:


> Snoopy - I don't use the box clickers like that unless I'm working with a dog in a really loud place or at a distance outdoors. Many dogs don't like the loud CLICK they produce and they are easy to get backwards in your hand. The first clicker pictured, the iClick, is available from Karen Pryor's website www.clickertraining.com It is quieter and the way it fits in your hand and has a raised button tends to prevent you from having it backwards making your clicking that much more efficient. Also available is the Clicker+ which is battery operated and can produce several digitally optimized variations of clicks, including chirp, ping and trill sounds. There is also the Clickstick, a target trainer with a clicker built in and much more.



I agree with it being loud. Thnats why the lady from his puppy class told me to use it behind my back so it wont hurt his ears. It was only $2 and that was all I could do for now.

But thank you for letting me know because I thought they were all the same! So next time I can get a better one

Oh, By The Way...did you know I am a little loopy and I type too fast without checking my work. I spelled my Snoppykins a little backwards so to speak 

Nobody has said anything, but when I saw you spelled it right I wanted to fess up LOL


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Snoppykins said:


> I agree with it being loud. Thnats why the lady from his puppy class told me to use it behind my back so it wont hurt his ears. It was only $2 and that was all I could do for now.
> 
> But thank you for letting me know because I thought they were all the same! So next time I can get a better one
> 
> ...


LOL I hadn't even noticed it was "Snoppy."

Those iclicks aren't terribly expensive, by the way. I got a pack of 5 for about $8. I keep one in several rooms of the house, one in the training bag and one in the Jeep. The Clicker+ is about $15 and the Clickstick is somewhere around $20.


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## smileypits (Dec 25, 2008)

Hi Guys, I'm new.

Just wanted to say that when I saw this thread, my first reaction was .....

The Most Powerful Training Tool is.......................................







LOVE. 

Happy Holidays


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## Pepper (Jan 27, 2008)

^^    yay


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Properly used by a knowledgable trainer, the clicker IS the most powerful training tool in the world by far. The principles are psychologically sound and scientifically proven.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> Properly used by a knowledgable trainer, the clicker IS the most powerful training tool in the world by far. The principles are psychologically sound and scientifically proven.


Agreed. Operator error is very high when it comes to clicker training. It's powerful but in the wrong hands, merely a noise to the dog that is useless.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wizer said:


> what happens when the dog is so used to it that you can't be without out it. Its something else you have to always carry around?


There is no dependence on the clicker once the behavior has been learned. It's only used to initially teach a behavior. You'll still generalize/proof and Premack the behavior as you always do, and exchange it for life rewards to continue to reinforce it...without the clicker. 



MissMutt said:


> It's a nice concept but it's not for every dog..


It's not a concept, it's a theory. To say it's not for every dog is like saying the theory of gravity does not apply for every dog. That simply is not true. Whether you use a clicker or not your dog still learns by the laws of learning theory. 



> My dog doesn't really like it. I had VERY inconsistent results using the clicker. It scared her at some times, excited her at other. Yet, in obedience class a couple of weeks ago the trainer introduced the clicker to those who hadn't used it before and my damn dog started looking around as if to say "ohh what's that?!?!"


Dog training is very much a mechanical skill. If the dog was scared or excited by it, your skill in muting the click such that she was less sensitized may have been the difference. Sometimes switching clickers for one with a different tone is enough, other times using an alternate marker is needed. 



Snoppykins said:


> Dogs learn 50 % faster than without it.


I don't know about 50%, as that really depends on the trainer's skill, but I will say once you become proficient with it, the limits of what you can do with your dog are endless.


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## Snoppykins (Dec 19, 2008)

I might have it backwards, it was either 50 % or 5 times faster! Sorry about that! I get numbers mixed up


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> It's not a concept, it's a theory. To say it's not for every dog is like saying the theory of gravity does not apply for every dog. That simply is not true. Whether you use a clicker or not your dog still learns by the laws of learning theory.
> 
> 
> Dog training is very much a mechanical skill. If the dog was scared or excited by it, your skill in muting the click such that she was less sensitized may have been the difference. Sometimes switching clickers for one with a different tone is enough, other times using an alternate marker is needed.


Concept, theory, same difference to me .. all I know is that it IS a powerful tool but for a dog who had some mild noise sensitivities, in my case, my voice was the best thing to use. 

Oh and I have a decent understanding of learning theory.. classical and operant stuff.. I was just saying the idea (concept? theory?) of using a clicker as a marker is convenient, many times efficient, but learning can still be accomplished without it.

You are right, though, that she has responded better to a softer clicker rather than the box clicker. But people have gotten on without clickers for hundreds of years of dog training. Like I said, I know it is a powerful tool many times, but for now I have opted not to use it. If it means spending a little bit longer teaching commands, that's okay with me. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who don't use them and have still accomplished great things in training their dog.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

MissMutt said:


> Concept, theory, same difference to me .. all I know is that it IS a powerful tool but for a dog who had some mild noise sensitivities, in my case, my voice was the best thing to use.
> 
> Oh and I have a decent understanding of learning theory.. classical and operant stuff.. I was just saying the idea (concept? theory?) of using a clicker as a marker is convenient, many times efficient, but learning can still be accomplished without it.
> 
> You are right, though, that she has responded better to a softer clicker rather than the box clicker. But people have gotten on without clickers for hundreds of years of dog training. Like I said, I know it is a powerful tool many times, but for now I have opted not to use it. If it means spending a little bit longer teaching commands, that's okay with me. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who don't use them and have still accomplished great things in training their dog.



Your argument is making the point for clicker training. I have no doubt people can and have been training for a very long time without it. But training methods like anything else advances over time. The purpose of clicker training is efficiency as well as effectiveness.

Your case might be the exception but for the majority of dog owners, especially new puppy owners, there really isn't a more efficient way.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

MissMutt said:


> Oh and I have a decent understanding of learning theory.. classical and operant stuff.. I was just saying the idea (concept? theory?) of using a clicker as a marker is convenient, many times efficient, but learning can still be accomplished without it.
> 
> You are right, though, that she has responded better to a softer clicker rather than the box clicker. But people have gotten on without clickers for hundreds of years of dog training. Like I said, I know it is a powerful tool many times, but for now I have opted not to use it. If it means spending a little bit longer teaching commands, that's okay with me. I'm sure there are plenty of people here who don't use them and have still accomplished great things in training their dog.


Sorry, I was just speaking in defense of clickers, not about your training or successes. In many regards I am very much like you in that I prefer to be gizmo free. But the clicker can be a very powerful gizmo if given the chance, even for this clumsy, uncoordinated, two-left-footed, non-ambidextrous me.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I think my prong collar is a much more powerful tool, but that's just me.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Westhighlander, I _intended_ on making the point for clicker training.  I think maybe some of you took my original post to mean that I hate the idea of using a clicker and that it's a useless little piece of plastic, but that is not the case. I have no doubt that it is, the majority of the time, the way to go. Your post pretty much mirrors my thoughts - a lot of times, it works, and it speeds up training. All I was saying is that in my case, I preferred to abandon it.

CP, yeah, I prefer to be gizmo free, for now. Maybe as I advance in training my dog that will change.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

wvasko said:


> I think my prong collar is a much more powerful tool, but that's just me.


I think prong collars should be outlawed along with shock collars and choke chains but thats just me. 

There is nothing you can do with any of them that a knowledgable trainer can't do better and faster with a clicker. I'd love to see someone try to use those torture devices on something like a killer whale or an elephant or a gorilla. Thats what makes a clicker so much more powerful. It can be used on any animal successfully.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> I think prong collars should be outlawed along with shock collars and choke chains but thats just me.


Don't knock the prong, lol. It is a very powerful tool as well, used properly. I used to use one with Betty in Rally training, and it's how I got her to heel near perfectly. And no, I don't use the prong for corrections, the dog corrects itself when she feels the leash tighening and a little pressure from the prong collar. And I would use it again with a new dog. It's just for training purposes only. And no, it's not a torture tool. If it was, I don't think Betty would let me put it on her and she would fight it, but she always looked forward to it because she knew we were going to do some training (work).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Excellent points.

*I'd love to see someone try to use those torture devices on something like a killer whale or an elephant or a gorilla. Thats what makes a clicker so much more powerful. It can be used on any animal successfully.*

When I'm asked to train any of the above, I will then switch to a clicker/fish/bananas/peanuts etc. I do think I may give the gorillas a pass though. It was a nice thread but now I suppose anybody using a prong collar is at the very least considered a torturer. The OP was looking for opinions on powerful training tools not personal opinions on what were bad tools. So rather than flame anybody I will just bow out of the thread.


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

Lonewolfblue said:


> Don't knock the prong, lol. It is a very powerful tool as well, used properly.


Used properly, it causes pain. If it didn't, it would be no more effective than a leather collar. It is the pain or threat of pain that causes it to "work".



> I used to use one with Betty in Rally training, and it's how I got her to heel near perfectly. And no, I don't use the prong for corrections, the dog corrects itself when she feels the leash tighening and a little pressure from the prong collar.


Awwwww ... come on now ... the dog corrects itself???    The rally training classes I've observed don't allow prong collars. I never allowed them in my classes either.



> It's just for training purposes only.


There are many better, pain free, more positive ways to train.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

RawFedDogs said:


> Used properly, it causes pain. If it didn't, it would be no more effective than a leather collar. It is the pain or threat of pain that causes it to "work".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, everyone has their opinions, right? In my thinking, if it really did cause pain, then Betty would fight me when I try and put it on. But she doesn't. She readily accepts me putting it on. Unlike ecollars. So I don't think there was any real pain there in how we used it, just some pressure when the leash goes tight (no jerks or leash popping). And I only used it til she started getting heel down, then phased it out. And whenever she would start to pull a little again, I would break out the prong for a little more training, then back to the regular collar. Now I don't use the prong at all. When working, she heels near perfect. And is very happy.

Now for the shock collars, I have tried them on a couple occasions, and yes, they do startle the dog a bit. And Betty doesn't like them being put on. I only used it when I borrowed it from my trainer, but then had to get it back to her, as she had another dog where they were using the ecollar for training. So I don't use the ecollar with her anymore. The part I did like the best was the tone button. I got her used to the idea that whenever she got a tone, a treat was coming. So I could work with her at a further distance than I could with a clicker, which I didn't use at the time. But now we are clicker training (shaping) and she's learning things so much faster. I've tried teaching weave between the legs several times with luring, praising, etc, but she just wasn't catching on. Also, I think it could also be the inconsistancy of my voice when I said either Good Girl or Yes. The clicker always sounds the same and there isn't that inconsistancy. And I'm getting really, really good on my timing as well.

I think each tool has their place. And each tool also has proper ways to use them as well. It's up to us as trainers to know the proper use of each tool that we decide to incorporate into our training. And for those who don't, or just start using them without proper training, then the dog may end up being unhappy in the end. But with Betty readily accepting the prong, I truely feel there wasn't pain, in what I consider pain to be. If there was, she wouldn't want it put on.


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## smileypits (Dec 25, 2008)

Merry Christmas!

When I originally posted in this thread, I said that love is the most powerful training tool. I stand true to that, even though I use a torture device when training my dogs. I use the choke chain, love and consistency. I've attended a clicker class and although I realize that clicker training is very powerful, I don't think it is logical nor communicating to the dog fully. 

There is a fine line between the two different training styles, using a "torture device" and being purely positive. I tend to lie in that fine line. I appreciate the use of love and treats/play time when my dog has just worked extra hard and/or accomplished something that we've been working on for awhile but I also think there is a need to let my dog know when things are not acceptable. While using a clicker, all you can do in that situation is NOT click. lol - well that doesn't work too well when your dog is eyeing the next door neighbor's cat.... 

I think that when taught to use correctly and consistently, the "choke chain" is a very efficient, strong, dependable tool for corrections in training. I've tried them all except for the prong and/or e-collar because I've never had to escalate from a training chain. It's proven itself to me in many many dogs.

I also think that a dogs communicate through both positive (licking/wagging/playing) and negative (baring teeth, growling, nipping) ways when interacting with eachother and in order for any of us to communicate on that same level, there must be a negative reaction to bad decisions and a positive reaction for good decisions.

Any training done first and foremost with love and caring and empathy is A-ok by me 

*shrug* Happy Holidays though!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I think prong collars should be outlawed along with shock collars and choke chains but thats just me.
> 
> There is nothing you can do with any of them that a knowledgable trainer can't do better and faster with a clicker.


Know of any _successful_ retriever field trial, or Shutzhund trainers that exclusively use clickers?


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## RawFedDogs (Jun 22, 2008)

smileypits said:


> I use the choke chain, love and consistency.


I don't see how you can use a choke chain and love at the same time. It's an oxymoron.



> I've attended a clicker class and although I realize that clicker training is very powerful, I don't think it is logical nor communicating to the dog fully.


I've not only attended many clicker classes, I have attended many clicker seminars for trainers and I have taught people to use the clicker for 6 years both in classes and in private one on one training and I know there are sound psychological principles and science to back up clicker training. It is very logical and it communicates much better than the human voice.



> There is a fine line between the two different training styles, using a "torture device" and being purely positive.


No, it's not a fine line, its a big huge canyon.



> I tend to lie in that fine line.


You can't. You are either positive or you aren't. If you use a choke chain for corrections you aren't.



> I also think there is a need to let my dog know when things are not acceptable.


In all my years of clicker training, I never had that problem. I never had to use a cross tone of voice either. They know.



> While using a clicker, all you can do in that situation is NOT click. lol - well that doesn't work too well when your dog is eyeing the next door neighbor's cat....


Hehe, you are telling the people who know how that it's not possible. LOL



> I think that when taught to use correctly and consistently, the "choke chain" is a very efficient, strong, dependable tool for corrections in training.


A choke chain will work. Thats been proven over many many years. Pinch collars work. SHock collars work. Heck, you can hit your dog with a stick and get the same results. It doesn't mean they are the best methods or even acceptable in todays world with all the knowledge of animal psychology and learning principles.



> I've tried them all except for the prong and/or e-collar because I've never had to escalate from a training chain. It's proven itself to me in many many dogs.


I've used them all in what I call my learning years of dog training. When I learned a better way, i put all those devices away and have never brought them back out.



> there must be a negative reaction to bad decisions and a positive reaction for good decisions.


OHHH, thats soooo outdated. That used to be the thinking years ago. Again you are telling the people who know how that it can't be done.



> I have to say I was offended by the term "torture device". There really wasn't any need to take it to that level of opinion.


I am offended when I see people in this day and age still advocating such outdated painful devices when training dogs. You can teach a dog to do anything in the world without using pain or coersion if you know how. You can teach ANY ANIMAL using only positive methods. There is just no need to treat an animal poorly just to get him to perform some behavior you want.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

RawFedDogs said:


> I don't see how you can use a choke chain and love at the same time.


You are 100% correct. You don't see it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Know of any _successful_ retriever field trial, or Shutzhund trainers that exclusively use clickers?


I think the question you mean to ask is, are there any successful field trialists that use markers?, and the answer is a resounding yes. Ivan Balabanov is the first that comes to mind. However, there was a time when we hadn't been to the moon either, but I don't believe anyone would suggest field trials are the final frontier in determining which methodology is best in dog training.


This thread is quickly going nowhere.


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