# Loss of faith in breeder? Slight emergency



## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

So I went to visit my breeder today, and it turns out she's sending the pups home at 7 weeks. I'm feeling kind of betrayed by this breeder because I thought she wanted what was best for the puppy.

She assured me that 7 weeks is fine, and a very close friend of mine whose mother is a breeder said that as long as the puppies have their shots between 6 and 7 weeks, it's fine, but remembering what I have read on here I'm really needing some advice. I've already fallen in love with sterling but I don't want to put myself through easily preventable misery just because my breeder thinks that 7 weeks is acceptable. 

Advice please!!!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I would think that the "why" matters. Emergencies and major life events happen, if the breeder did not plan on sending them home early but sees it as unavoidable due to circumstances beyond her control, then I wouldn't particularly have an issue with it. The extra week could be helpful, but 7 weeks isn't like 4 weeks or "just weaned" like is seen too often on classified/Craigslist ads.

I don't think that the 6-7 weeks vaccines part makes sense though, afaik the maternal antibodies mean those vaccines rarely provide immunity anyway and the extra time is more for socialization and interaction with littermates.

In some places, the law says 8 weeks minimum for pups being sold.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Old school many pups picked up at 7 weeks.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Thank you both! I really like this breeder and I already fell in love with my Sterling (I got to pick him today) and if it really isn't the end all to end all I am SO willing to put in ALL the extra effort to make sure this dog gets the best life possible as soon as my gotcha day comes along.

My breeder has all of the green flags except for this one thing and I really don't want to "black liSt someone based on something that may not necessarily be the worst thing in the world. I have learned that I should confirm with the breeder that the 8th week IS the gotcha day (even though I am pretty sure I had confirmed this with this breeder) for my next pup. I feel so dumb for falling for something I tried SO hard to avoid...


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

It's easy to fall in love with a breeder. The face that you're questioning, though, means that your judgement is not clouded. 

I would definitely ask her "Why?" Because by my logic, 7 weeks is _probably _fine. But why risk _probably_, when you could keep them one extra week and it would be _completely _fine? To me, letting a puppy go at seven weeks shows laziness, which is a huge red flag to me. "They'll _probably _be fine, so why do I need to keep them an extra week?" I don't want to be pessimistic, but that's how I read it. 

Watson's breeder didn't let them go till eight weeks, and she had the (free) option to keep them till eleven.

I would definitely talk to her about it. Figure out her reasoning. If she has a clean, concise reason, then go with it. But if she just says something like "Oh, it'll be _fine_" I would pause. A week doesn't seem like a long time, but to something that's only seven weeks old, it's huge.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

And... you could always ask her if she would be willing to keep the puppy an extra week, because it would make you more comfortable.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Personally, if I loved everything else about the breeder I would take a puppy at 7 weeks. It's almost impossible to find a breeder you agree with 100%, and you just have to decide which things are dealbreakers for you and which aren't. If 7 weeks is, then look elsewhere.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

sassafras said:


> Personally, if I loved everything else about the breeder I would take a puppy at 7 weeks. It's almost impossible to find a breeder you agree with 100%, and you just have to decide which things are dealbreakers for you and which aren't. If 7 weeks is, then look elsewhere.


^Yep. 

(tooshort)


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I would not fret. In the end, I am sure it will be fine. I would still go on with the puppy purchase. I would be more of a red flagger if you were talking about a toy breed where it is best to keep the pups for 8 weeks, if not longer.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

chimunga said:


> Alright. Let me make you feel better. (Long story that made me feel better)


You're right; that did make me feel better. I definitely view you (and many others who have posted on this thread) as my team of "experts" because you have all been where I am going, and if one of you can get through it, I know I can too, especially with you guys as a fantastic reference ;-)


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

missc89 said:


> You're right; that did make me feel better. I definitely view you (and many others who have posted on this thread) as my team of "experts" because you have all been where I am going, and if one of you can get through it, I know I can too, especially with you guys as a fantastic reference ;-)


 There are very few black and whites when it comes to breeding.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I agree with the others. 7 weeks really isn't too bad. Not ideal.. but not horrible. 

I had a heck of a time finding a BC breeder because none of them lived up to my criteria. I mean.. not a single one. The ones that were the -closest- to hitting it would have had me on a really, really long waiting list and I have no idea where I'm going to be 1+ years. Not to mention those were sporting breeders and I doubt they would have let me have a pup with no sport titles. The ones that "fit" all my criteria otherwise were also pumping out 6 litters a year.. NO thanks. My puppy is coming from out of state from a very small working breeder that doesn't fit all my criteria but really isn't bad.

Just like most things in life.. sometimes you have to compromise (I mean.. obviously not too much). Breeding has a lot of grey areas for sure.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

For me besides the inherent problems with sending them home early, it's also a red flag to look out for a bunch of other problems, because it's a lazy and cheap thing for a breeder to do. It makes me wonder what other corners are being cut. Unless there's a valid extenuating circumstance or legitimate explanation, me personally, I'd probably go elsewhere if they won't keep the dog for the extra week, there being no shortage of puppies in this world.

It's also illegal in a lot of places.

It's entirely possible I'm unhealthily cynical, but I think a lot of questionable breeders rely on getting people attached to the pup (or to the idea of the pup) to get iffy things excused despite the buyer's better judgement.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

I had a similar issue several years ago when I got my German Shepherd as a puppy - I got a call when he was around 6 or so weeks, the breeder wanted to know when I'd pick him up next week. Apparently all of their puppies go home at 7 weeks, and that's how they've done it for the last 40ish years. Ultimately we actually ended up having some scheduling/car issues and we picked our pup up at 8 weeks anyway, but I was fully prepared to take him at 7 weeks (after posting to the forums with similar worries). 

And here's what I've realized over the years - a lot of people on the internet will tell you what you should be looking for in a breeder, but 99% of those people are only passing along what other internet strangers told them. This doesn't necessarily have to apply to this issue, but when I see people saying "a breeder has to do THIS and THIS and THIS, otherwise they're a bad breeder", I wonder about the reasoning behind such a criteria. WHY is it so important that a puppy go home at 8+ weeks, WHY can't a breeder use his own male for a litter, WHY should a pair of dogs be only bred once, etc. Why is it a issue for _you _that the breeder is okay letting puppies go at 7 weeks old? 

As far as I know, the most common argument for keeping a puppy after 7 weeks is that the puppy should learn bite inhibition from its littermates. To be honest, I've seen puppies taken home at 7 weeks old and puppies taken home at 8 weeks old and even in the short run, I see no difference. Not to say there is no science or reason behind it, but rather that if you know what you're doing, one week earlier with you won't change the dog you get. I know wvasko mentioned that old school breeders often let pups go home at 7 weeks old, and that's also been my experience with many working breed breeders. Quite frankly there are breeders out there that I know have sent puppies home at 6 weeks old or younger. Not ideal and only in special circumstances where it was the best option for all parties, but these are still breeders I'd go to for a dog in a heartbeat. 

This is a fairly low priority issue for me, so I personally would not let this one issue affect my opinion of a breeder's kennel and their dogs.

tl;dr not everything is black and white. Good breeders come in all shapes and sizes, it just depends on what you're comfortable with and _why_ (doesn't count if the "why" is "the forum says so").


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

I did kind of ask the breeder why she was letting them go early. I sent her an email explaining my concerns and said "Its just because I have read many texts that say it is very important for puppies to stay with their mother and littermates until they are the age of 8 weeks. If you say 7 weeks is okay, I will trust you"

And her answer was "Trust me, 7 weeks is okay" so I am not entirely sure why she is sending the pups home at 7 weeks (besides the fact that she is going to have about 3 other litters around the time that my pup goes home) and she also has some health issues that has made it harder for her to run things like she used to.

But she's also a dog behaviourist and has a degree in canine behaviour so I can't really see someone with ALL of that information and knowledge doing something that she knows would deliberately inhibit the dogs growth in any way.

Equinox - thanks a lot for your comment, it helped a LOT


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Every dog expert seems to have their own puppy development calendar. There are some people, including trainers, who think 6 weeks would be preferable to 8 weeks IF the new home provided good support/attention/care etc. . . . some theory says bonding with people is strongest from 6 to 14 weeks. There are people who say 12 weeks is ideal. The legal system seems to have settled on 8 weeks, which seems fine. But I wouldn't be freaked out by a one week difference. Do make sure the vaccination schedule is kept . . . ask your vet what (s)he recommends. That's also subject to discussion . . . and in part depends on whether parvo is active in your area, which your vet should know.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Honestly? Having three other litters at the same time would bother me way more than sending pups home a week early. Of course, with Annabel, we didn't get her until she was closer to 11 weeks, but good Newf breeders always keep the pups longer so they can have cardio checks at 10 weeks. I think NextDog will probably be 8 weeks, but if our breeder were to tell us to come at 7 weeks, I don't know that I'd let that one thing be a deal breaker.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I know wvasko mentioned that old school breeders often let pups go home at 7 weeks old, and that's also been my experience with many working breed breeders.


My own "old school" decision was based on the sooner I get the pup the better I liked it cause I was then in control of my new pup's life. 

Truth be told I never had any problems with 7 week old pups.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Basically this is the gist of the situation I am dealing with:

She currently has 1 litter of 2 week old Aussies and 1 litter of 1 week old Welsh Terriers. They are both kept in separate areas of the house and have a really nice set up (I was there yesterday)

She has 2 more Aussies that may or may not be pregnant, they were coupled about a week before these were born at most, and she has a waiting list of buyers to get those pups.

These are her credentials: (please PM me)


Dogs are her life, she does not work. She stays at home and takes care of her dogs. That is it.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

lol, if she's got multiple litters running simultaneously, that's why she's booting them at 7 weeks. It's not some principled decision.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I think if you are satisfied with most things a breeder does, taking the puppy at seven weeks should not be an issue. I know the internet has put forth all sorts of reasons why and when and what a breeder should do. If you go on a Doberman forum, they say only good breeders dock and crop their pups before they go to a new home. Therefore if you want an uncropped Doberman you have obviously gone to a bad breeder.
Without knowing the circumstances I don't think a person can just say because the puppies are going at seven weeks, that she is not a good breeder. Also, females do not always come in season at the most convenient times so sometimes a breeder is going to end up with more than one litter at a time. They could be older females and this is going to be their last litter and she does not want to put it off for another 6-8 months. Who knows?? It is really easy to criticize when you do not know the circumstances.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

I agree with Equinox and ForTheLoveOfDogs. You have to determine what is right for you and why. You are the one that has to live with your decision in the end. It's your money supporting the breeder you choose and you're living with the puppy for the rest of its life, so you are the one that has to be okay with it. Your deal breakers are going to be different from mine and everyone else's. 

That aside...Skye came home at 7 weeks. She wasn't from a breeder but a foster based rescue. The foster had a background in canine health and behavior and she believed that sending the pups home at 7 weeks allowed them to bond with their new families before going through their first fear period. I was totally fine getting her at 7 weeks, I got to start her socialization they way I wanted that much earlier. I was prepared for the "cons" of having her that early, the bite inhibition thing, but felt like I had the tools I needed for it to not be an issue. It worked just fine for us, she's a very stable puppy and I'm happy that I got her when I did.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> Without knowing the circumstances I don't think a person can just say because the puppies are going at seven weeks, that she is not a good breeder. Also, females do not always come in season at the most convenient times so sometimes a breeder is going to end up with more than one litter at a time. They could be older females and this is going to be their last litter and she does not want to put it off for another 6-8 months. Who knows?? It is really easy to criticize when you do not know the circumstances.


Yeah, that's a huge red flag and a deal breaker for me regardless of circumstances. Sure, I won't call breeders who do this awful-terrible-no-good-very-bad breeders without knowing the circumstances, but I wouldn't get a puppy from them. Call me selfish, but I want to know that my breeder is putting her time and energy toward my pup's litter and making sure they have the best start possible. If this is a regular occurrence for a breeder, to have multiple litters on the ground and multiple bitches pregnant, then I'd probably say bad breeder. If it was a one-time instance where everyone went into heat at the same time and they just HAD to get puppies out of all of those bitches, I'd pass on a pup but not necessarily label them "bad". It's just not something I'm personally comfortable with.


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## Whistlejacket (Jul 26, 2012)

In some countries, like Belgium, 7 weeks is the standard age to take a puppy home, and as far as I can tell, belgian dogs do just fine and are as well-adjusted as any other dog.

That said, three litters at the same time? THAT, to me, is a red flag. It sounds like she continually has puppies at home and produces litter upon litter... it may not be the case, but it's definitely something worth researching. I, personally, would not be comfortable with buying from someone who ran their breeding program that way, but ultimately it's up to you.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I also agree with the number of litters being a bigger issue _to me_. I passed up a lot of BC breeders because I didn't like the number of litters they were producing. 

Though I've seen "reputable" show breeders who almost always have a little or 2 on the grounds. I really don't know what's -bad- anymore. Of course you should continue to educate yourself and take others opinions/experiences into account but ultimately you still need to decide what bothers you and what doesn't.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

This is Sterling's mom's last litter and A. and T. have been with the family for one year and one full heat cycle before they bred them. Sterlings mom herself was only bred 3 times previously as they believe in a rest period for the mother.

With what everyone has said, I do still feel comfortable enough to go ahead with getting the puppy from this breeder. 

The number of litters on the ground would worry me if it went for the fact that I could see myself in a similar situation and it doesn't mean I would be a bad breeder, just a breeder with dogs with odd timing

Thanks everyone


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I brought Lars home at 7 weeks because it was actually my schedule that wouldn't let me get out to the Western New York area on the 8th and 9th week. His breeder was okay with that. There have been no issues with me bringing him home a week early.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

MrsBoats said:


> I brought Lars home at 7 weeks because it was actually my schedule that wouldn't let me get out to the Western New York area on the 8th and 9th week. His breeder was okay with that. There have been no issues with me bringing him home a week early.


Thank you


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Eh, I'm not sure I'm comfortable with 4 litters out of a female :/. But yeah, we all have to decide what we're comfortable with.

I'm kind of OK with 7 weeks but not a day before that. 

I once read a book by some weirdo who said that the 49th day was magic and you absolutely HAD TO get the puppy on THAT DAY or all was lost. Very odd.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Molly came home at 7 weeks from a decent breeder. That's just how the scheduling worked out. No big deal for me - nor a big deal to me that they had an oops litter. Stuff happened. One in a long career? Whatever.

Jack's breeder using training methods on adult dogs I don't love. I'd get a puppy from her without hesitation, though probably not another adult dog. 

Kylie was found at FOUR weeks old. No issues with bite inhibition or anything else.

Thud was brought home at 6. No bite inhibition at all, but frankly he's a shepherd mix, I kind of expect it and don't think two weeks would have mattered.

No breeder is ever going to be everything you like. Bottom line it's down to: "Am I okay with my money supporting this person's breeding practices? (if you are giving them enough money for them to be making their money back/profiting - not always the case)" and "Do they produce what I want?" 

If the answer to both of those is yes, then all the checklists in the world just don't matter.

I also agree with Equinox. A lot of people are just parroting what they've heard without any understanding of the WHYs behind it. Which means they wouldn't recognize an exception to the 'rules' if it bit them on the butt.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

CptJack said:


> Molly came home at 7 weeks from a decent breeder. That's just how the scheduling worked out. No big deal for me - nor a big deal to me that they had an oops litter. Stuff happened. One in a long career? Whatever.
> 
> Jack's breeder using training methods on adult dogs I don't love. I'd get a puppy from her without hesitation, though probably not another adult dog.
> 
> ...


Thank you


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Yeah I would be a lot more concerned about the number of litters than the 7 week thing. When I had Greys foster litter of only 3 pups I still felt like I didn't have enough time to do all the socialization and tactile stimulation and new experiences and all of that that I wanted to do, and I kept them until 12 weeks since I was busier to make sure that they got the best start. I have absolutely no freakin idea how I would've done that with two bigger litters and two pregnant bitches at the same time!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I would not go to a breeder with that many litters on the ground at once. Jmo.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Effisia said:


> Yeah, that's a huge red flag and a deal breaker for me regardless of circumstances. Sure, I won't call breeders who do this awful-terrible-no-good-very-bad breeders without knowing the circumstances, but I wouldn't get a puppy from them.* Call me selfish, but I want to know that my breeder is putting her time and energy toward my pup's litter and making sure they have the best start possible.* If this is a regular occurrence for a breeder, to have multiple litters on the ground and multiple bitches pregnant, then I'd probably say bad breeder. If it was a one-time instance where everyone went into heat at the same time and they just HAD to get puppies out of all of those bitches, I'd pass on a pup but not necessarily label them "bad". It's just not something I'm personally comfortable with.


One litter of puppies is so much work. So much. Does she have assistants or apprentices or something? I would be wary about her being able to give your puppy the attention he deserves with that many litters.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

missc89 said:


> And her answer was "Trust me, 7 weeks is okay" so I am not entirely sure why she is sending the pups home at 7 weeks (besides the fact that she is *going to have about 3 other litters around the time that my pup goes home*) and she also has some health issues that has made it harder for her to run things like she used to.


Honestly, this part bothers me way more than the 7 weeks. 7 weeks really isn't that big of a deal if you love everything else about the breeder. And IME, a dog who stays with his littermates longer might learn about bite inhibition with other dogs but it might not apply to humans. I got a shark of a puppy and he was with his littermate until 9.5 weeks.

But having 3 other litters at the same time, plus having health issues, would be a huge red flag to me, honestly. After seeing what goes into a litter I can't imagine raising one myself, and raising 3 at the same time is just so much. I can't imagine that they can get the amount of socialization and care that they need if the breeder is that busy.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Her health is better now (Cancer survivor) and she has her own vet as well as three daughters and a husband who all help pitch in.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Her health is better now (Cancer survivor) and she has her own vet as well as three daughters and a husband who all help pitch in.


Yeah, that would still not be enough for me to get a dog from someone with 3-4 litters on the ground at a time. Sorry, but even that many people cannot socialize that many puppies in a way I would feel comfortable with.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

When you guys say litter on the ground at a time, do you mean within the same year or at the same time as another litter, because I know she only ever has 2 litters on the ground at once.

Edit: I'm not trying to defend her, I just really need to know if its worth going through with this purchase or not..


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I wouldn't personally buy from someone who had two litters on the ground at the same time. Even 3+ a year would bother me a bit but not as much if they were at completely different times.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I wouldn't personally buy from someone who had two litters on the ground at the same time. Even 3+ a year would bother me a bit but not as much if they were at completely different times.


Is it based on the lack of time in socializing the puppy?


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

missc89 said:


> Is it based on the lack of time in socializing the puppy?


More like split attention. One litter takes a whole lot of time. It would be really hard to give each puppy the time it deserves with 3 litters at the same time.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Is it based on the lack of time in socializing the puppy?


Yes. Socializing one litter is an insane amount of work and two is nearly impossible. I can see where there might be cases where a good breeder does it because they must for whatever reason, and manages the puppies well. But if a breeder is doing it consistently litter after litter is would be a big red flag. It just seems like byb puppy mill kind of attitude about getting as many puppies out as possible, vs putting a ton of thought and immense care into each litter. Nothing is a hard and fast rule but it would make me think twice and ask a lot of questions.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

For me it would depend on a lot of things. 

I am uncomfortable these days with breeders who tend to always have litters on the ground. I know breeders that breed 5-8+ times a year. They are not for me. If your aussie litter is just now born and there's three more litters coming up soon it would make me hesitate a lot.

Been there, done that. Usually not a good sign. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rules. To me it seems to point towards breeding for profit more so than quality.

I would be ok with a situation like Summer's breeder. Her litter and Beau's litter were < 3 months apart but it was a one time occurrence just because of the way the breeder's bitches came into season. Knowing her for years she would often go years without any litters at all and usually only bred maybe once a year. It just so happened that there were two litters at once that once year. I'm ok with that.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

I think I'm going to visit her a few more times and see how the puppies are coming along before I make a final decision. If you guys could give me tips on things I SHOULD and SHOULD NOT be seeing from a puppy, I think that would help a lot too.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well she has 2 litters and possibly a couple other bitches that might be bred. Sounds like she is pushing out a lot of puppies, too many for me.



> Been there, done that. Usually not a good sign. I'm sure there are exceptions to the rules. To me it seems to point towards breeding for profit more so than quality.


Did not read before I posted but Laurelin's quote says it all.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I would look for puppies who are confident and comfortable with all handling and new surfaces. Sure some puppies are going to be more unsure than others but in general I would look for general confidence and an outgoing nature. 

But when it comes down to it I want to use my money to support breeders who do what I want to see breeders doing. If they are raising their puppies in a way I don't approve of I'll go somewhere else.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I would look for puppies who are confident and comfortable with all handling and new surfaces. Sure some puppies are going to be more unsure than others but in general I would look for general confidence and an outgoing nature.
> 
> But when it comes down to it I want to use my money to support breeders who do what I want to see breeders doing. If they are raising their puppies in a way I don't approve of I'll go somewhere else.


Yeah this. How well is she keeping up with the rule of sevens?

Not a hard and fast thing, but a response to that one sentence question will tell you a looooooot.

I had a friggin printed checklist and notebook for the puppies where I recorded weights, stimulation, ect. And it was overwhelming with just three pups!

(For anyone reading this who doesn't know, the litter I'm referring to was a foster litter. Didn't breed and after that I DEFINITELY have no desire to, hehe. Just so time consuming.)


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> It just seems like byb puppy mill kind of attitude about getting as many puppies out as possible, vs putting a ton of thought and immense care into each litter. Nothing is a hard and fast rule but it would make me think twice and ask a lot of questions.


Yes. Sending home puppies early because of a solid extenuating circumstance like scheduling, a surprise personal problem, whatever, okay. Sending home pups early while pumping out a ton of pups? Big waving red flag.

Do you know if breeding is her income source?


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Rescued said:


> Yeah this. How well is she keeping up with the rule of sevens?
> 
> Not a hard and fast thing, but a response to that one sentence question will tell you a looooooot.
> 
> ...


(I mean think about rule of sevens in addition to teaching nail trims, examining ears and teeth, being groomed, socialized for slowly increasing periods while in a different room from littermates and mom, ect. It just all takes TIME for each individual pup. And I only had 3!)

(Sorry meant to add to original post not quote myself)

And wait... All four litters are going to be born by the time you get your pup?? Eesh. HARD pass.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

parus said:


> Yes. Sending home puppies early because of a solid extenuating circumstance like scheduling, a surprise personal problem, whatever, okay. Sending home pups early while pumping out a ton of pups? Big waving red flag.
> 
> Do you know if breeding is her income source?


It is not at all. She barely breaks even. She also has the provincial SPCA come in and make a solid check of her entire establishment before she's given a permit to be able to breed her dogs for that year, and she goes through the testing every year.

I know she's starting to sound like a horrible breeder, but I am 95% sure these are her only litters this year. It just happened that all of her females came in heat at the same time this year. She told me this would happen when multiple females live in the same house (note: they live with her in her house, they are her pets.) Yes, she may have been a BYB or somewhat of a puppy mill breeder before by the standards that I am reading up on here (see below for explanation on "éleveurs"), but I feel like she's trying to get away from that image - the 'breeder with too many breeds'.

It's very overwhelming for me, but I've seen her place, I've seen her dogs, and the only thing that had really bothered me was the 7 week thing. Sterling's litter was her first litter all year.

Then again, if this is definitely a huge no-no for everyone, maybe I SHOULD rethink where I get my pup..


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

missc89 said:


> It is not at all. She barely breaks even. She also has the Quebec SPCA come in and make a solid check of her entire establishment before she's given a permit to be able to breed her dogs for that year, and she goes through the testing every year.
> 
> I know she's starting to sound like a horrible breeder, but I am 95% sure these are her only litters this year. It just happened that all of her females came in heat at the same time this year. She told me this would happen when multiple females live in the same house (note: they live with her in her house, they are her pets.) Yes, she may have been a BYB or somewhat of a puppy mill breeder before, but I feel like she's trying to get away from that image.
> 
> ...


Well... She's sending them home because she doesn't want to have to deal with the hardest week (7-8) when she has another 6 week old litter and two newborn ones.

You just have to decide if you're ethically comfortable with supporting that.

I did *the best I could* because mine were fosters, and already born (a day old at rescue) so they were going to be there either way.

I just see.. No point in breeding two additional dogs when you ALREADY have two litters on the ground.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

missc89 said:


> Yes, she may have been a BYB or somewhat of a puppy mill breeder before, but I feel like she's trying to get away from that image.


Wait, what?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

parus said:


> Wait, what?


I definitely worded that wrong, my mistake.

From the way you are making her sound, having more than one dog breed at a time is a puppy mill, and she used to also breed Newfs and Cairns and found that the breeds were getting to in-bred, so she kept up with the Australian Shepherds and the Welsh Terriers. That is common in Quebec to have what is considered an "éleveurs", which is a breeder, rearer, and it is not uncommon for them to have more than one breed at a time. Now I have to figure out if that would be considered a "puppy mill" breeder or a "BYB" but to me it's just someone who is very passionate about a certain type of animal and wants to see good genes continue to be passed.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

missc89 said:


> Now I have to figure out if that would be considered a "puppy mill" breeder or a "BYB" but to me it's just someone who is very passionate about a certain type of animal and wants to see good genes continue to be passed.


Does she do anything with them besides breed them?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

parus said:


> Does she do anything with them besides breed them?


She doesn't show or do agility, but she goes on hikes with them, long walks, she uses them as examples in her dog behaviour training when she goes out on calls for her clients, so she does a lot of advanced obedience with them.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmm. What health testing does she do? How old is the female who's on her 4th litter? Do you know how many litters the breeder produced last year?


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

missc89 said:


> I definitely worded that wrong, my mistake.
> 
> From the way you are making her sound, having more than one dog breed at a time is a puppy mill, and she used to also breed Newfoundlanders and Cairn Terriers and found that the breeds were getting to in-bred, so she kept up with the Australian Shepherds and the Welsh Terriers. That is common in Quebec to have what is considered an "éleveurs", which is a breeder, rearer, and it is not uncommon for them to have more than one breed at a time. Now I have to figure out if that would be considered a "puppy mill" breeder or a "BYB" but to me it's just someone who is very passionate about a certain type of animal and wants to see good genes continue to be passed.


Totally not bombarding you but what is the cynodo thing? Tried to google but im 'MERICAn and can't read French.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

missc89 said:


> She doesn't show or do agility, but she goes on hikes with them, long walks, she uses them as examples in her dog behaviour training when she goes out on calls for her clients, so she does a lot of advanced obedience with them.


Well, walking dogs is kind of the bare minimum. I guess my question would be what constitutes "advanced obedience" here and whether the dogs she's breeding are the ones who do it. 

I'm a little fuzzy on the "getting too inbred" bit, too...I mean, you can get semen shipped from dogs anywhere in the world, basically.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Rescued said:


> Totally not bombarding you but what is the cynodo thing? Tried to google but im 'MERICAn and can't read French.


Please! Bombard away! I have the information you guys need so that you can form a valid opinion of this person, as you have never met her and never seen her establishment and how it is set up for her dogs, and I REALLY appreciate your input. I do NOT want to be one of those people who KNOWS how bad a "pet store puppy" is and still goes out and buys one. That would be the worst hypocritical thing in the world.

It means that she has a masters in Dog/Canine Psychology and that is what they call the degree in Quebec. Someone I know very well and who is a veterinarian now took the exact same course that this woman did and graduated from the exact same program.



parus said:


> Well, walking dogs is kind of the bare minimum. I guess my question would be what the "advanced obedience" constitutes.
> 
> I'm a little fuzzy on the "getting too inbred" bit, too...I mean, you can get semen shipped from dogs anywhere in the world, basically.


I don't think she liked the lines that were coming out because people weren't doing proper testing before breeding.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Hm. Your choice of course. And make sure what willowy said about the health testing adds up.

There is... Very little chance that any modern behavior program (my boss is a behaviorist with 379373628384 letters after her title) would say with the current research to let pups go at 7 weeks.

But even if they did... I can guarantee you that NO behaviorist is ever going to suggest getting a dog from someone with four litters on the ground. Even two is a stretch. With her behavior background... That just makes ZERO sense.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

If you are happy with the way she is raising YOUR puppy, and you are happy enough with what she is producing and satisfying that you will get what you want and need from it, and you aren't going to feel bad giving up the money in exchange for the puppy (ie: like you're supporting 'bad' behavior/breeding)

For me, this would not be the breeder, but none of us here can really make the call.

For me, if I was paying the cost of most puppies, I would want my puppy to be the primary focus of her attention (well, my pup's litter), and I would want both health testing and performance events (ie: PROVING that the dogs can do the things she says, via titling in front of a judge and putting her dogs against others for evidence of that) - or at least GCGs and things like therapy work (and certification in such) or using them in 'useful work for which they were bred'. 

For you? That's down to you and how you feel about it. How confident you are, how much you want this puppy, how worried you are about possible repercussions, how much you like NOT JUST THE PARENTS, but the directions she is breeding in. 

Me? Meh. Like I said, if I'm shelling out hundreds of dollars (or more than a thousand) I want more than one litter out of 4, sent home at 7 weeks, from parents who haven't proven themselves. Molly's mom was health tested, her father was not. They did work on a farm. They spent their first 7 weeks (before me) in a horse stall or outside. She was vetted regularly (at a vet), played with and loved, but. 

I paid 25.00 for her. Would I have paid 1200 for her with those red flags? No. 

Would I get another dog from her? Not at 1200 bucks. Otherwise? Ask me in another year.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Rescued said:


> Hm. Your choice of course. And make sure what willowy said about the health testing adds up.
> 
> There is... Very little chance that any modern behavior program (my boss is a behaviorist with 379373628384 letters after her title) would say with the current research to let pups go at 7 weeks.
> 
> But even if they did... I can guarantee you that NO behaviorist is ever going to suggest getting a dog from someone with four litters on the ground. Even two is a stretch. With her behavior background... That just makes ZERO sense.


Heats happen, timing sucks. But to go ahead and breed two more dogs when you currently have two litters on the ground? Just... Wait until the next heat. That to me is the biggest red flag of all. 7 weeks is AWFULLY CONVIENENT since it matches up with the EWD of her other two bitches.

Lord why is my phone quoting everything. I'm going to move all these lazy dogs off of my lap and go to bed now hehehe. They pinned me on the couch for hours!!!


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Rescued said:


> Heats happen, timing sucks. But to go ahead and breed two more dogs when you currently have two litters on the ground? Just... Wait until the next heat. That to me is the biggest red flag of all.


lol yes. Why do all four bitches have to have litters this year? What's the urgency?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

So what health testing is she doing?


I would walk away with that many litters happening at the same time. As Rescued said, it sucks if all of your bitches go into heat at the same time but you just have to space it out and wait for the next heat. Having 4+ breeding bitches in the first place is kind of a lot, for anyone who know how much time and effort goes into a litter. 

And I don't get the thing about breeding 4 breeds. They aren't similar at all. Was she breeding quality dogs of each of those breeds? Everyone has a different situation but I don't see how someone could be breeding quality dogs from so many breeds at once. 

Based on the few details you have given I would pass on this puppy. It seems like you are trying to justify getting a puppy from her, and I'm sure she's a nice person and takes care of her dogs, but nothing you've said so far would lead me to thing she's a good breeder who I would support with my money.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> So what health testing is she doing?
> 
> 
> I would walk away with that many litters happening at the same time. As Rescued said, it sucks if all of your bitches go into heat at the same time but you just have to space it out and wait for the next heat. Having 4+ breeding bitches in the first place is kind of a lot, for anyone who know how much time and effort goes into a litter.
> ...


Like I said, I am not trying to make excuses, just give you all of the information I have so that you can have a better idea of what I am dealing with so that I can make a better decision. Trust me, this really sucks lol.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Like I said, I am not trying to make excuses, just give you all of the information I have so that you can have a better idea of what I am dealing with so that I can make a better decision. Trust me, this really sucks lol.


Yeah, I know. I don't mean to be harsh at all. It's a crappy situation and something you need to resolve one way or the other. I don't envy your position.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

What health testing is done on the breeding dogs?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Willowy said:


> What health testing is done on the breeding dogs?


Eyes. hips, and overall health.



elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I know. I don't mean to be harsh at all. It's a crappy situation and something you need to resolve one way or the other. I don't envy your position.


I wouldn't have posted on this forum if I wasn't ready to be bombarded with a bunch of things that make me doubt my decision. Its one of the reasons I'm here. I know so little that I kind of rely on you guys to steer me in the right direction, and I really don't want to make a dumb mistake, so I'm going to bring a very close friend of mine who is a daughter of a breeder to my breeders house and see what she has to say, and potentially base my decision off of that. I LOVE Sterling, his mom and his dad, they are wonderful dogs. I really do like my breeder, but I can see where you are all coming from and it is going to be a BIG factor in my final decision.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

OFA? Even eye scores should be available on the offa database if she did pennhip. Go to offa.org and type in the reg names of her dogs

Oh and mdr1 for Aussies, can't believe I forgot that. Make sure she does that, search "lunetta" on here for another users really sad experience with her untested mdr Aussie pup


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

And you've seen the results? If she did OFA you can look it up, not sure about Pennhip.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Willowy said:


> And you've seen the results? If she did OFA you can look it up, not sure about Pennhip.


She didn't do OFA because she has a close friend as a breeder but I saw the book of results she keeps from all of her dogs that she gets from the veterinary clinic.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I would be very interested to see the Newfs she was producing and what health checks she had done and all that. The inbreeding thing is pretty much hogwash, though, as far as I'm concerned. It's not like Newfs are significantly more inbred than other purebreeds or something.... But that's just going to be a pet peeve of mine against this particular breeder, heh.

I would definitely ask what health testing is done. Not just vet checks, actual health testing. And ask why she chose to breed the two dogs she did - what was the reasoning behind the litter? Was it to better the breed, was there something about the bitch that she thought this particular dog would compliment, or did she just have a male and female and stuck them together?


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

missc89 said:


> She didn't do OFA because she has a close friend as a breeder but I saw the book of results she keeps from all of her dogs that she gets from the veterinary clinic.


Can't look pennhip up but I know offa.org still publishes the cerf results. AND MDR1 I can't believe you didn't mention that!!!!


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Rescued said:


> Can't look pennhip up but I know offa.org still publishes the cerf results. AND MDR1 I can't believe you didn't mention that!!!!


Oh no she sent us an email letting us know which drugs to NOT give our puppies as it would probably kill them. That she DID inform us of.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

missc89 said:


> She didn't do OFA because she has a close friend as a breeder but I saw the book of results she keeps from all of her dogs that she gets from the veterinary clinic.


I'm confused. If she didn't do OFA, how did she get results on hips?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> I'm confused. If she didn't do OFA, how did she get results on hips?


Hips are OFA, eyes are not. Sorry >< ugh brain hurts.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

missc89 said:


> elrohwen said:
> 
> 
> > I'm confused. If she didn't do OFA, how did she get results on hips?
> ...


Sorry, I missed that. OFA does eyes now though since CERF went away. She just didn't send in the results?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> Sorry, I missed that. OFA does eyes now though since CERF went away. She just didn't send in the results?


No, she's one of those old school breeders as I have come to learn.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Who looks at the eye results to say they're clear?

With a cheap and easily available MDR1 test, not testing seems unnecessarily outdated. But a warnng is better than not I guess.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

missc89 said:


> Oh no she sent us an email letting us know which drugs to NOT give our puppies as it would probably kill them. That she DID inform us of.


Mehhhh so she isn't testing her dogs mdr status? To my knowledge it's only an issue in mutant/mutant which is why most breeders test their breeding stock since you can still breed a carrier to a clear. I may be wrong. Anyway the sire and dam themselves should be tested.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Who looks at the eye results to say they're clear?


Her vet friend sends off the results to a lab.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

missc89 said:


> Oh no she sent us an email letting us know which drugs to NOT give our puppies as it would probably kill them. That she DID inform us of.


Did she test the parents? Unless both were tested normal/normal, I'd test the pup since a mutant/normal can still react to the class of drugs but a mutant/mutant would be even more sensitive. And it isn't just the drug but the dosage and concurrant use with others in the class. (I am NOT a vet)

AFAIK, it is acceptable to breed dogs with the MDR1 mutation but it is a fault so if two dogs are otherwise of similar quality, one without the mutation should be given preference in the breeding program and dogs with the mutation should be bred to those without. A lot of the breed carries it, so that isn't a red flag; not knowing the results would be a red flag IMO since the goal would be to gradually reduce its prevalence while still keeping a healthy gene pool


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Shell said:


> Did she test the parents? Unless both were tested normal/normal, I'd test the pup since a mutant/normal can still react to the class of drugs but a mutant/mutant would be even more sensitive. And it isn't just the drug but the dosage and concurrant use with others in the class. (I am NOT a vet)
> 
> AFAIK, it is acceptable to breed dogs with the MDR1 mutation but it is a fault so if two dogs are otherwise of similar quality, one without the mutation should be given preference in the breeding program and dogs with the mutation should be bred to those without. A lot of the breed carries it, so that isn't a red flag; not knowing the results would be a red flag IMO since the goal would be to gradually reduce its prevalence while still keeping a healthy gene pool


I know for a fact that she makes sure that all parents pass all testing before she breeds them. If they don't pass the testing, they get fixed and become part of the family.

She also keeps the pups that don't find a home, and she sends the pups off with a certificate of health as well as a 2 year health guarantee IIRC


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Who looks at the eye results to say they're clear?
> 
> With a cheap and easily available MDR1 test, not testing seems unnecessarily outdated. But a warnng is better than not I guess.


Unlike hips, eyes are evuated by the vet opthomologist at the time of testing. You will know if they are clear or not without sending it in to OFA. Unless it's something I'm not familiar with. The tests must be done by a specialist, not a regular vet. It's not the type of thing you send to a lab, it's something the specialist decides at the visit. 

I do agree about the MDR1 testing though.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

I will ask about the MDR1 testing when I go with my parents on Sunday the 12th of April - I only saw "hips and eyes"


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

missc89 said:


> I know for a fact that she makes sure that all parents pass all testing before she breeds them. If they don't pass the testing, they get fixed and become part of the family.


Except that MDR1 testing is a little different than say, bad hips. A dog can still be breeding quality with the mutation but it would be part of finding a proper match between dam and sire and with choosing which dogs should be bred at all. I would definitely want to know the results for both parents for any herding breed.



missc89 said:


> I will ask about the MDR1 testing when I go with my parents on Sunday the 12th of April - I only saw "hips and eyes"


I'd ask about elbow and thyroid screening too.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Also ask for details as to what she's doing to socialize the pups. Details, not just "yup I socialize them".


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Also ask for details as to what she's doing to socialize the pups. Details, not just "yup I socialize them".


She has her family handle them daily and she socializes them with the other dogs she has of all sizes. Also, she allows the owner to handle the pup that they chose when they come and visit them as long as the pup is being handled under her supervision.

But I will ask for more details for sure!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Why do you suppose she is breeding these particular dogs? Does she have any specific reasons for doing so? That would give me pause.

I have also been there and done that with breeders who say they 'vet check' their dogs hips/knees/eyes but don't use OFA or CERF and actually get official results. I would pass hard on that too.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Breeding two breeds does not make a bad breeder. I have two breeds that I breed. Now that being said, 4 breeds at once is a little much imo (yes I know you said she dropped two). I mean how well does she really know each breed? 

Also 4 litters on the ground, she has two now I am gathering, with a possible two more on the way. Is way too many. I can see two litters at once (and would not walk away) but anything more is a real big red flag. 

I also wonder why no MDR1 test, but also what about elbows? 

I second asking about why she did this pairing and what exactly she is looking to improve in her lines. 

Personally and it is just my opinion, I would not support this breeder. But that is me.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Her vet friend sends off the results to a lab.


Was that testing for PRA? Because CERFs/OFAs are just a simple eye exam (done by a specialist of course). There are no results being sent to a lab. Now PRA however is a DNA test sent into a lab.

With CERFs they have to be done every year.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

CptJack said:


> If you are happy with the way she is raising YOUR puppy, and you are happy enough with what she is producing and satisfying that you will get what you want and need from it, and you aren't going to feel bad giving up the money in exchange for the puppy (ie: like you're supporting 'bad' behavior/breeding)
> 
> For me, this would not be the breeder, but none of us here can really make the call.


Essentially, just all of this.

While I believe that a breeder isn't questionable for selling a 7 week old puppy, or for breeding multiple breeds, or even (to an extent) having multiple litters on ground...things seem to be adding together for this breeder. Her heart seems to be in the right place, but that's not necessarily enough to produce a good dog. I took a look at her website and admittedly am not impressed, she seems like a typical pet breeder, breeding more for the general dog than she is for good Australian Shepherds. 



> The tail and dewclaws of our puppies are intact. We do not like mutilating dogs for nothing. Moreover, the tail is their main means of expression.


This above part is also weird to me, but to each their own. I know different people have different opinions on the matter so that's not a big deal. 

What did jump out at me (even before viewing her website) was that you got to pick out your puppy at what? 2 weeks old? This surprises me as there isn't much you can tell about a puppy at 2 weeks old aside from color and sex. This makes me wonder what kind of evaluation she does for the puppies, and how much it even matters if you've already chosen yours. Though to be fair, if she is breeding pet type dogs, they may just be consistent enough in temperament/drives/energy (or lack thereof) that it won't make a big difference which pup you take home. 

What it would boil down to (for me) is what I'm looking for - when I look for a dog I want proof of good nerves, temperament, drive, structure, etc. This is important to me even in a pet dog because I want a dog I can take with me everywhere, and I look for a very specific type of dog when I bring one into my life. Additionally, I believe in breeding to preserve the working dog and staying true to how the breed was meant to be. So for me personally, I would look elsewhere because I don't see anything from this breeder that says she could sell me what I want.

But that doesn't mean she won't produce what you're looking for, or that you won't be able to get a good dog from her. Not everyone wants the same kind of dog, nor do they look for the same kind of breeder. IMO that's fine, so don't worry about what the rest of the forum would think.

Just know what kind of dog you want, and how to get that dog.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Equinox said:


> What did jump out at me (even before viewing her website) was that you got to pick out your puppy at what? 2 weeks old? This surprises me as there isn't much you can tell about a puppy at 2 weeks old aside from color and sex. This makes me wonder what kind of evaluation she does for the puppies, and how much it even matters if you've already chosen yours. Though to be fair, if she is breeding pet type dogs, they may just be consistent enough in temperament/drives/energy (or lack thereof) that it won't make a big difference which pup you take home.


That was a red flag that stuck out to me too. I'm not saying your shouldn't have a hand in picking your dog. But especially with first time dog owners, you should be telling the breeder what you are looking for in a dog. And then the breeder, who is more experienced with matching dogs to people, should take your wants and needs into account and pick the dog that would suit you best. Personalities don't really show at 2 weeks. I think you should get a dog whose appearance you like, but I personally think that should be secondary. 

I also really don't like that she doesn't "do" anything with her dogs. Agility, confirmation, tracking, dog sports, herding. Something. 

I think those things would be my deal-breakers, honestly.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Yeah.. personally I wouldn't go with this breeder either the more that is revealed. 

I will say that there are plenty of Aussie breeders that don't test for MDR1 (just warn about the issue) or breed mutant/mutant (or M/N) with mutant/normal anyway which puts them at risk for mutant/mutant. The first breeder I talked to was a confo breeder that did many health tests. She a wide open book and didn't care that she was breeding mutant/mutant because it wasn't a big deal to her since it doesn't effect everyday life. It doesn't effect anything but sensitivity to certain meds. I disagree with her because it's honestly a pain in the butt worrying about my dog not being able to take simple diarrhea meds.. but it really doesn't cause any other issues. I believe at least 50% of Aussies carry one copy of the gene.. so.. yeah. I don't see too many Aussie breeders with normal/normal only dogs. My dog is mutant/normal. 

I'm also not bothered by pet breeders with no other purpose than breeding pets.. as long as they are being very careful how they place their puppies. I personally would not go to one.. but I also understand that your average person just wants a pet and does not care about the other stuff. 

If I'm being honest I do think you could do much better.. especially in an Aussie breeder. Unfortunately I'm not sure about finding a decent one in Canada.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I'm also not bothered by pet breeders with no other purpose than breeding pets.. as long as they are being very careful how they place their puppies. I personally would not go to one.. but I also understand that your average person just wants a pet and does not care about the other stuff.


I don't think there's an inherent problem with breeding dogs for pets either, but IMO it's just as important for pet-producing dogs to have demonstrably stable and trainable temperaments. I'm not saying the sire and dam need to have competitively titled or whatever, but they ought to have _somehow_ clearly displayed a sound mind under pressure.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

parus said:


> I don't think there's an inherent problem with breeding dogs for pets either, but IMO it's just as important for pet-producing dogs to have demonstrably stable and trainable temperaments. I'm not saying the sire and dam need to have competitively titled or whatever, but they ought to have _somehow_ clearly displayed a sound mind under pressure.


That's kind of where I was coming from. I'm fine breeding dogs for pets. Watson was bred to be a pet. Heck, I'd even be cool with a simple CGC title. At least that would demonstrate that she spends the time to train her dogs in basic stuff.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

parus said:


> I don't think there's an inherent problem with breeding dogs for pets either, but IMO it's just as important for pet-producing dogs to have demonstrably stable and trainable temperaments. I'm not saying the sire and dam need to have competitively titled or whatever, but they ought to have _somehow_ clearly displayed a sound mind under pressure.


Agreed - I am a pet person by every definition of the word. I don't currently participate in dog sports, I don't show, and I'm not much of a trainer. But I still look for very specific things in a dog, and strong nerves, appropriate thresholds, good drives, etc., are still incredibly important to me. All of those traits are still applicable to every day life and pet dog level training - I don't have to be interested in breeding/showing/trialing to be turned off of fearful, nervy, driveless dogs. Not to mention, when I get a German Shepherd or a Malinois, it's because I want a German Shepherd or a Malinois. Not just a dog with four legs, pointy ears, and similar coloring, yet falls short in other aspects (but that's just me personally).


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

parus said:


> I don't think there's an inherent problem with breeding dogs for pets either, but IMO it's just as important for pet-producing dogs to have demonstrably stable and trainable temperaments. I'm not saying the sire and dam need to have competitively titled or whatever, but they ought to have _somehow_ clearly displayed a sound mind under pressure.


You test a pet's stability by letting it be a pet. Take it for walks, do non formal obedience (this person is a trainer though, right?), see how it reacts to other dogs and people in public. Does it have SA or any other behavioral problems? I've seen many pet bred Aussies (I mean.. really.. no special stuff done) with much more stability than my Aussie bred with much more purpose. For a pet bred dog.. I don't know what you are really looking for? I mean it'd be great for a breeder to get a CGC (but seriously.. know horrible dogs that earned that title) and do some classes at least.. but I still don't believe for a second that really is going to make a difference. Not in my experience anyway.

I will also admit I'm a bit bitter about "reputable breeders" right now. I went to a conformation thing recently and was just.. appalled by some stuff they do to "win" so that they can breed their dogs with skin conditions and stuff.

Equinox - You are definitely not my definition of a pet person. You are far more involved with your dogs even though you do not do sports/confo etc. You still are looking for something more specific than just.. good pet of a certain breed. Otherwise you would not care about those things you just stated. 

Also.. not supporting this breeder for OP. The pet breeder thing is kind of an aside thought.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

To me, there are three different classes of breeders, and a wide range of ethics and variety with even within those categories. This is all my opinion and may very well all be hogwash:

1. Oops breeders who need to get the puppies out of there, and people who breed solely for money. Money and getting the pups into other people's hands being the most important things to the breeders.
2. People who breed because they love their dogs, think their dogs have wonderful temperaments, are beautiful, etc... May or may not do health testing, may or may not lead an active lifestyle with their dogs and compete, but care deeply about their animals and are genuine about keeping in touch with buyers about the well being of pups they place. The dogs are important to them but the purpose of breeding is to 'preserve' the image of their existing dog, maybe make some money, maybe they truly do love the breed too. 'The Dog' is the focus.
3. People who breed for a purpose greater than their own dogs. Yes, their dogs are special too but in the greater context of the history and future of the breed, or in the context of performance for the sake of sports or work. Each dog in the breeding program is important but the greater focus is the program. And to be in this category, you can't NOT partake in health testing and certain competitions/jobs with your dogs. Because when your focus encompasses ideas that are beyond your kennel, ideas that are being worked on and upheld by like-minded breeders, workers, and competitors out there... You need to measure your dog by the same standards that those other people do. Greatest difference I see between category 3 and the others is the others are pretty much stand alone, in-it-for-me mentality. And the third is a community. You NEED to reach out. You NEED to see what other animals are being produced out there and if you want to advance you will probably be pulling in from other lines too.


There are good and bad people from all three categories, good and bad dogs too. And all sorts of grey areas in between. A solid, healthy PET dog can be found almost anywhere, on the streets even. The CHANCES of ensuring that outcome increase as you go toward a breeder who does 'more'. As many people have stated, it really doesn't matter what anyone on this forum's opinions are. If you see what you want in a dog and you think you can very well get it with the puppy you chose, that's all that matters. If this breeder at least cares about ALL her puppies and is willing to work with the owners and take dogs back... She is at least not putting more animals in shelters and that counts for a lot. I have seen a lot of puppies from 'nice' 'friendly' 'stable' pet dogs grow into similarly nice dogs. I think the chances of getting a good dog from a breeder with dogs that are good on the surface are STILL higher than picking a puppy from a shelter (not that I'm discouraging that; heck, look at my dog!). For me, I agree with Equinox in that I want a lot out of a dog, enough that I if I go the breeder route I will be looking for a dog from category 3, even though I am a pet dog owner. For you... You decide.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> You test a pet's stability by letting it be a pet. Take it for walks, do non formal obedience (this person is a trainer though, right?), see how it reacts to other dogs and people in public. Does it have SA or any other behavioral problems? I've seen many pet bred Aussies (I mean.. really.. no special stuff done) with much more stability than my Aussie bred with much more purpose. For a pet bred dog.. I don't know what you are really looking for? I mean it'd be great for a breeder to get a CGC (but seriously.. know horrible dogs that earned that title) and do some classes at least.. but I still don't believe for a second that really is going to make a difference. Not in my experience anyway.
> 
> I will also admit I'm a bit bitter about "reputable breeders" right now. I went to a conformation thing recently and was just.. appalled by some stuff they do to "win" so that they can breed their dogs with skin conditions and stuff.
> 
> Equinox - You are definitely not my definition of a pet person. You are far more involved with your dogs even though you do not do sports/confo etc. You still are looking for something more specific than just.. good pet of a certain breed. Otherwise you would not care about those things you just stated.


I agree with you in many ways. But the thing about all the testing is by 'being a pet' a dog might miss a life situation or a trigger that might cause it to react in a way that a sound dog may not. Testing is all about the deliberation. Testing itself is deliberate. You don't just let the dog be a dog, you push it to extremes. I still think that good and bad dogs come from everywhere, the 'best' of breeders and the most unintentional breedings. But all people can ever work with is the PROBABILITY that their dogs will be healthy and sound. And to up that probability, you test it actively not passively.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Canyx said:


> To me, there are three different classes of breeders, and a wide range of ethics and variety with even within those categories. This is all my opinion and may very well all be hogwash:
> 
> 1. Oops breeders who need to get the puppies out of there, and people who breed solely for money. Money and getting the pups into other people's hands being the most important things to the breeders.
> 2. People who breed because they love their dogs, think their dogs have wonderful temperaments, are beautiful, etc... May or may not do health testing, may or may not lead an active lifestyle with their dogs and compete, but care deeply about their animals and are genuine about keeping in touch with buyers about the well being of pups they place. The dogs are important to them but the purpose of breeding is to 'preserve' the image of their existing dog, maybe make some money, maybe they truly do love the breed too. 'The Dog' is the focus.
> ...


I can agree with all of this.

Edit - I get what you are saying Canyx and I agree to an extent. I guess.. for example I know a "byb" that gives dogs to people he knows all the time just because he likes to produce nice pet dogs. He doesn't do anything with them. They are just pets and good at being regular, average pets. They are friendly, good off leash, and live like regular dogs with no severe behavior issues (without being pushed to any extreme). They are great pets for the people that have them. GSDs.. and some of the nicer ones I've met in both mind and body. I absolutely would prefer those dogs be tested in more pressured circumstances.. I would prefer they be health tested and everything. I'd never point the people that own those dogs to a breeder that does all the things I want because they wouldn't ever understand why any of that other stuff is important when they found exactly what they are looking for.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Equinox - You are definitely not my definition of a pet person. You are far more involved with your dogs even though you do not do sports/confo etc. You still are looking for something more specific than just.. good pet of a certain breed. Otherwise you would not care about those things you just stated.


Haha, well, I'm probably not your average pet person...but still a pet person nonetheless! My dogs are just pets and have no other role presently, most days we just curl up on the bed, watch Netflix, and go running for exercise. Maybe play around with dumb tricks or training exercises. I'm definitely more involved than most pet people but I think that just upgrades me to crazy pet person status LOL 

Good nerves is important to me because I take my dogs with me everywhere and I want them to be unflappable. Good drives are important to me because I'm not a very talented trainer and rely on dogs to make me look good! I think a lot more pet people would care about the traits I talked about if they could put a name to the trait. IMO they do care, they just don't know they can be picky about it.



Canyx said:


> I agree with you in many ways. But the thing about all the testing is by 'being a pet' a dog might miss a life situation or a trigger that might cause it to react in a way that a sound dog may not. Testing is all about the deliberation. Testing itself is deliberate. You don't just let the dog be a dog, you push it to extremes. I still think that good and bad dogs come from everywhere, the 'best' of breeders and the most unintentional breedings. But all people can ever work with is the PROBABILITY that their dogs will be healthy and sound. And to up that probability, you test it actively not passively.


Agreed. Allowing a dog to be a dog does not put the dog under much pressure and is (as you said) too passive. Plus, in those cases you would only have the breeder's word to go on - I would put much more stock in a breeder who says "my dog passed the BH test which involved heeling on leash, off leash, under distraction, remained calm while crowded, in the presence of stimuli such as other dogs, cars, bikes, etc. AND shows clarity under pressure and the ability to switch between drives with excellent secondary obedience in stages of IPO training" and then SHOWS the proof of that in titles and/or trial scores or videos (or even the dog in action). Compare that to the breeder who says "my dog goes hiking and walks loose leash and doesn't attack other dogs or my cows, and then sleeps on the couch when we're home", who's then not be able to offer a unbiased documentation of good nerves/drives/clarity in their dog...I trust the former to know a great deal more about what they're breeding.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> From the way you are making her sound, having more than one dog breed at a time is a puppy mill, and she used to also breed


Pretty much.



> It means that she has a masters in Dog/Canine Psychology


What institution did she get her Master's degree from. Did you see the degree, sorry but so many years in the business and watching people get scammed has built me a wall of paranoia. 

Remember nowadays with a printer anybody can print themselves a dog knowledge background. 



> I don't think she liked the lines that were coming out because people weren't doing proper testing before breeding.


What testing is she doing.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Canyx said:


> I agree with you in many ways. But the thing about all the testing is by 'being a pet' a dog might miss a life situation or a trigger that might cause it to react in a way that a sound dog may not. Testing is all about the deliberation. Testing itself is deliberate. You don't just let the dog be a dog, you push it to extremes. I still think that good and bad dogs come from everywhere, the 'best' of breeders and the most unintentional breedings. But all people can ever work with is the PROBABILITY that their dogs will be healthy and sound. And to up that probability, you test it actively not passively.


Exactly. "Being a pet" is a pretty complex job in many households. Unless it was someone I knew well with dogs I knew well I would much prefer something more concrete than "this bitch is a really lovely pet!" 

It occurs to me that the Therapy Dog International test or a local equivalent (regardless of whether one actually volunteers with the dog) seems like a pretty solid test of the dog's temperament and trainability, while not requiring anything particularly high level or complex. Or whatever. There are a million ways to develop 3rd party evidence that your dog is trainable and safe around the public. If you like dogs enough to generate dozens of them, shouldn't be that hard to pick something and do it.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Unless it's a teeny toy breed, I'm perfectly fine with 7 weeks. Volhard method says the 49th day is the best day for puppies to go to their new families, as they bond more easily at that age. 

I was able to bring 2 dogs home at 7 weeks of age and they did perfectly fine.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

For those who aren't as familiar; it is pretty darn common to find mill/bad BYB type breeders in Quebec- just churning out puppies. 

Obviously not all breeders in QC are bad (I've was referred to some damn good ones when I was researching purebreds), but I would be giving them additional scrutiny just because it is pretty common. Similar to how there are areas in the US known for mills and bad breeding situations.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

OP: I found quite a few breeders that I would support more than the one you are describing, in Ontario, a couple of which have litters on the ground, with a few more with litters on the way.

To me there are just too many red flags with the breeder you are considering. But that is me, if you are comfortable that is all that matters.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Hey guys - thanks for all of your concerns.

I think she is a pet breeder and an animal behaviourist, she never ever breeds two merles together, and it is absolutely imperative to her that her dogs pass their hip tests before they are considered for breeding.

You can find her name in the list of people who have gotten their Masters in Cynologue here: (please PM me)

She has her credentials posted on her wall in the sitting room where you get to visit with the pets, I believe there are even pictures of them on her website, but I can still take a picture the next time that I go and visit.

She told me to take my time in choosing my dog, encouraged me to wait a bit and see what their personalities are like, and I am the one who just fell in love with Sterling before getting to know him and picked him at 2 weeks old.

She has the MAPAQ (Quebec SPCA) come and check her establishment every year (therefor I doubt she is doing anything that the MAPAQ would consider puppy mill-ish)

She's been doing this for 30+ years, and has gone down to two different dog breeds to concentrate more on lines (as in, no merle x merle, no breeding dogs without hip tests) and temperament of the dog (if the dog is too stubborn, too aggressive, etc... won't breed it)

Here's her facebook and website for those of you that haven't seen it yet: (please PM me)

I may still go through with the purchase if the only bad things about her is that she is going to have 4 litters on the ground in 1 year and gives her dogs at 7 weeks. I am willing to take all the comments, but with the amount of years that she's been doing this, and she did give me a check list of things that she does with the puppies until they go home (I believe that is also posted on her website) and they get all the health testing posted on her website as well. (link in English for my non-french speaking people: please PM me) I really like her, and she may not be the best breeder by some standards, but as far as a pet breeder goes, I think she does pretty well. 

NOTE: The above is only true (I will go through with the purchase) if she answers my questions about the health testing as stated in this thread, I see that the puppies are being well handled, and my friend whose mother is a breeder approves. She needs to pass all three before I will consider staying with her.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

More info:

She owns 3 breeding Aussie females, 2 breeding Aussie males, 2 breeding Welsh females and 1 breeding Welsh male. In total she owns around 20 - 25 dogs on 170 acres. After she retires her dogs, she has them spayed/neutered and they spend the rest of their lives with her in her home, unless she finds an absolutely wonderful suitable home for her older dogs. She NEVER sends a dog to the shelter.

She bred the other two females because 1) Marlie did go in to heat but did not produce a litter, and 2) she has the demand for it as this is going to be Stella's last litter and she already had 16 people on a waiting list (and this is after 2 other people had opted out.)

She only sells you her pup under a spay/neuter contract.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

What it comes down to is what you're willing to support. And what you define as a good breeder for you.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Effisia said:


> What it comes down to is what you're willing to support. And what you define as a good breeder for you.


Thanks. Its going to take time but I hope I make the right choice for me and try not to worry too much about what you guys think  I do appreciate everything you guys have told me, and it will definitely influence my choice in sticking with this breeder.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Oh. Heh. And I also think that for a lot of people (me included) realizing all the red flags in the world wouldn't make too much of a difference if I'd already picked out and named my puppy... Once I'm attached to a pup, there's really no going back.


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

It sounds like you likely will follow through with this breeder. And really, it's up to you to decide if you are comfortable with her breeding practices. 

For me though, there are too many red flags. 

Flag 1: 4 litters on the ground. That's excessive. There's really absolutely no way that your dog would be getting the best chance in life. Even with being home full time, there's simply too much to be done with each litter to manage to get it all. People have hit this point pretty well.

Flag 2: Picking the pup at 2 weeks. A good breeder will want to match the best temperament to the future owners. What if you were a future sports person? You picked your pup because he was cuddly at 2 weeks old (what puppy isn't at that age?) and he has a nice coloration. What happens if he comes home and turns out to be extremely low drive? Or vice-versa for a pet home. You want a calm family member, and you end up with a ball crazy, drivey dog. The best breeders I know pay attention to looks last when selecting the right owners for the right dog.

Flag 3: Health testing that isn't well documented. Her website gives zero indication about health testing other than saying "Hips are tested". When I look at pages about a breeder's dogs, the last thing I care about is coat and eye color. I want to know temperament tendencies, any certifications or awards, and most importantly, health testing. I suspect that you would not find any information on the OFA website about her dogs. And plenty of vets will look at hips and say "those are fine", even if they might be fair or borderline. 

Flag 4: "Extensive socializing" that appears to be no more than letting kids cuddle puppies. What happens when you bring your pup home and they've never experienced linoleum? Or there's a thunderstorm? Or you decide you want to crate train, and the puppies "Will not be put in a crate during his lifetime with us"? She's conveniently vague about what these nebulous "socializations" are. 

Flag 5: Breeding a litter without having homes lined up. On her facebook page, she's advertising 2 week old puppies. It's not to say that a litter will never have a puppy or two that's not spoken for. But she doesn't have homes for this litter, and then she has 2 more aussie litters following. And then she "keeps the puppies that don't find homes". A good breeder has no problem with finding homes, because people are interested in their dogs. If she's having leftover puppies, you might want to consider why everyone else isn't jumping on buying them. 

Flag 6: The reasoning behind pups leaving at 7 weeks. I'm ok with 7 weeks (prefer 8), but she's very obviously doing it because she wants to make room. 7-8 weeks is the hardest and most time consuming/dirty experience. She wants to pawn off the hard stuff to you because she has easier, cuter babies to take care of.

Ultimately, I don't believe she's breeding because she wants to produce balanced, well bred adult dogs. She wants to produce puppies. She may love her dogs, but that's not a good enough reason to breed them in my eyes. I am completely fine with having pet dogs and even breeding them to an extent. But why would you sell yourself short rather than going with someone who is giving your future dog the best possible chance at life? She already is putting your pup at a disadvantage by getting rid of him at 7 weeks out of pure convenience. There are so many breeders with dogs who have proven themselves, both in conformation/agility/obedience/etc. and by extensive health testing. 

When I'm looking at a breeder, I want to see someone who is raising their pups as well or better than I myself would do it. I could very easily take a pet dog who a vet says "looks great", and breed it to my other dog with the same criteria and produce adorable puppies. All puppies are adorable. It's what happens when they turn into adults that's more important. Her socialization is not much more than just enjoying the existence of cute puppies. Look at what many of the serious sport breeders are doing now. Raising puppies is sooooo much more than just breeding dogs and keeping puppies fat and healthy. 

Chances are her pups will grow into fine dogs. But does that mean you should be giving her money to support her practices? I don't know how much she's charging for her puppies. But I would hedge my bets that it's too much, compared to what other stronger breeders would be selling their pups.

It's up to you. But consider very strongly why you choose to go forth with the dog. If it's because "you've fallen in love with him", and the breeders "loves her dogs", that may not be the best decision process. You're going to fall in love with whatever dog you come home with. You just want to give them (and you) the best chance at having a long, healthy relationship.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

I filled out the puppy questionnaire for T.A. breeder, and if I can get one of their pups, I'm going to pass up on this breeder. I just hope I'm not too late, and it doesn't even matter to me when I will be getting him/her, as long as it is PLEASE DEAR GLOB let me bring my pup home this year!!!!!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

It is not that she is having 4 litters in a year that is the red flag, although that is still a little much. It is that those 4 litters are all going to be on the ground within a few month of each other (with two already on the ground, 2 to come). It is not like she could not wait till the next cycle, she chose to have this many at one time. How is she going to keep an eye on all of them? 

Also, what faults do her dogs have that she wants to improve? Even just a pet breeder should be thinking about improving their lines, otherwise they are just pumping out puppies for nothing. Looking at her facebook, the bitch in the picture at the top of the page has an extremely straight rear (maybe just the picture), does she have a male that would improve that? I do not know if that is the mother of this litter or not. 

I mean I am not trying to sway you one way or the other, it is your choice in the end. I just think you should ask her what she is trying to improve, structurally, tempermentally etc In her lines.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i have read through this entire thread and with every new post of yours i have become more convinced that this woman is a byb and is not breeding to better the breed.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> I mean I am not trying to sway you one way or the other, it is your choice in the end. I just think you should ask her what she is trying to improve, structurally, tempermentally etc In her lines.


If I am able to be swayed, it is because there is some truth to what I am reading, and I don't like it. That's why I messaged T.A., that's why I am willing to lose my deposit (seriously, who cares about cash when proper breeding and health is involved?) and wait until July - August before I get my puppy. I've read too much on this forum to really let myself be okay with going through with this breeder if I have a better option.

The removal of the pitapata - such a sad confirmation of my change of heart lol.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

I am marking Sunday April 12th as my final decision day for "Original" Sterling's breeder. My mother's friend who I will call R.B. because she is a retired breeder, will be accompanying me to C.B. (current breeder's) establishment on (guess which day) Sunday April 12th. I trust R.B.'s opinion on a LOT of things, especially dog related, as she used to breed basset hounds (and I think another type of breed but I can't really remember.) If all of what I am saying is truly a bunch of red flags, she will see them and tell me not to go through with this breeder. If she says it's okay, I hope you can all respect my decision to trust a close friend and fellow dog-person's opinion and go through with this purchase.

I will DEFINITELY keep you all updated and let you know what the final decision is.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

missc89 said:


> I am marking Sunday April 12th as my final decision day for "Original" Sterling's breeder. My mother's friend who I will call R.B. because she is a retired breeder, will be accompanying me to C.B. (current breeder's) establishment on (guess which day) Sunday April 12th. I trust R.B.'s opinion on a LOT of things, especially dog related, as she used to breed basset hounds (and I think another type of breed but I can't really remember.)


In all fairness, it depends on what kind of breeder this R.B. was. If she did things the same way as your current breeder then of course she's not going to see anything wrong with how things are done. Just my two cents. 

After looking at the FB page and webpage - I would steer clear of this breeder. She may love her dogs and treat them well, but she's doing this for the money and nothing more.


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

I applaud you for giving it some serious thought!! It's hard to possibly forfeit the dog you've been dreaming about for the last month or however long it's been. But if he's not the dog for you, you'll find one that will fit even better.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

missc89 said:


> If I am able to be swayed, it is because there is some truth to what I am reading, and I don't like it. That's why I messaged Terwin, that's why I am willing to lose my deposit (seriously, who cares about cash when proper breeding and health is involved?) and wait until July - August before I get my puppy. I've read too much on this forum to really let myself be okay with going through with this breeder if I have a better option.
> 
> The removal of the pitapata - such a sad confirmation of my change of heart lol.


I'm very sad for you, as I know this is a hard decision. If I already had the deposit I probably wouldn't be able to say goodbye unless they were crazy awful. I commend you for even considering it. I hope that the decision is made easier for you soon pending breeder visit.

Edit - I also want to clarify I do not condone "backyard breeding". I do not and will not support it and try push people toward Canyx category 3. However.. I can't really decide how I feel about things one hundred percent anymore. Especially because some "crappy" breeders have some nice lines of dog that could be used in the gene pool of some breeds. I'm still trying to figure it all out. I don't want to derail OPs thread so I won't comment with my side thoughts anymore.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

missc89 said:


> I definitely worded that wrong, my mistake.
> 
> From the way you are making her sound, having more than one dog breed at a time is a puppy mill, and she used to also breed Newfoundlanders and Cairn Terriers and found that the breeds were getting to in-bred, so she kept up with the Australian Shepherds and the Welsh Terriers. That is common in Quebec to have what is considered an "éleveurs", which is a breeder, rearer, and it is not uncommon for them to have more than one breed at a time. Now I have to figure out if that would be considered a "puppy mill" breeder or a "BYB" but to me it's just someone who is very passionate about a certain type of animal and wants to see good genes continue to be passed.


Mmm I wouldn't call this a QC thing.

There are SOME breeders who have 1-2 breeds... but they don't have litters that often :/

I only know of one breeder who I'm comfortable with who breeds two breeds... and she actually has stopped breeding one of the two breeds altogether (same reason as your breeder -- they were just too unhealthy). She used to breed Cocker Spaniels and Paps but only breeds Papillons now.

I can assure you good breeders here in QC are far and few between and the ones that are reputable only breed, at most two breeds... even that's rare. Most choose to focus on one breed (unless it's like... a Belgian Shepherd and they have Groens and Tervs, etc.).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> After looking at the FB page and webpage - I would steer clear of this breeder. She may love her dogs and treat them well, but she's doing this for the money and nothing more.


Got to agree and I did not FB or Web Page.



> I hope you can all respect my decision to trust a close friend and fellow dog-person's opinion and go through with this purchase.


Not necessary to respect your decision no more than you would/should have to respect advice or opinions given. You read the replies and just let your own common sense be your guide.

OH, good luck.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

missc89 said:


> She has the MAPAQ (Quebec SPCA) come and check her establishment every year (therefor I doubt she is doing anything that the MAPAQ would consider puppy mill-ish)


Milling isn't illegal. Mills routinely pass inspections. It's good she's being inspected, but it doesn't mean she's not a miller.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Out of curiosity, how much is she charging for this massive pile of puppies?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I am going off a really fuzzy memory here of looking at the website since my French is pretty ho-hum, but I seem to recall a thread asking about this breeder awhile back? Did you post a Q on it MissC or was it maybe someone else?


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Just a thought, missc89:

If you DO decide to go with this breeder, you may want to heavily edit or delete this thread. There is enough information here to identify the breeder, with heavy critique of her breeding practices. If she or a friend came across this thread, things might get awkward (at the very least) for you as a puppy buyer.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Parus - 750$ per pup, includes first set of shots, deworming, kennel cough vaccine, anti-parasite treatment, skin and cell analysis, leash, collar, harness, toys, bag of food... and milling _is_ illegal in Ontario and the Ontario SPCA and Petsmart AND the Quebec SPCA are working together to try and make mills illegal in Quebec too.

Shell - here's the link to the thread you're thinking about: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/353906-question-about-specific-breeder.html Since no one really had anything to say (good or bad) I decided to go ahead with her


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

GoGoGypsy said:


> Just a thought, missc89:
> 
> If you DO decide to go with this breeder, you may want to heavily edit or delete this thread. There is enough information here to identify the breeder, with heavy critique of her breeding practices. If she or a friend came across this thread, things might get awkward (at the very least) for you as a puppy buyer.


Comes up on the second page of my google search, when I plugged in the kennel name.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

GoGoGypsy said:


> Just a thought, missc89:
> 
> If you DO decide to go with this breeder, you may want to heavily edit or delete this thread. There is enough information here to identify the breeder, with heavy critique of her breeding practices. If she or a friend came across this thread, things might get awkward (at the very least) for you as a puppy buyer.


Already done - Thank you




ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Comes up on the second page of my google search, when I plugged in the kennel name.


Done - thank you


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I'm sorry, are you still going to get the puppy? I know you're really excited and like everyone else said it's good that you're still questioning things and not getting tunnel vision  I didn't read ALL of the pages but I read most of them. It sucks sometimes when you find out that things weren't what you thought they were.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Rescued said:


> OFA? Even eye scores should be available on the offa database if she did pennhip. Go to offa.org and type in the reg names of her dogs
> 
> Oh and mdr1 for Aussies, can't believe I forgot that. Make sure she does that, search "lunetta" on here for another users really sad experience with her untested mdr Aussie pup


Glad I read through this thread. I made the mistake of not listening to these awesome people on here, spent 500 bucks on a badly bred aussie puppy... took her home. Went through some personal stuff I'm not going to get into now, had to rehome her... new owner contacted me a few months later to inform me that my 6 month old Lunetta had passed away because her vet medicated her with ivarmectin. Immediate death.


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

WHOA $750. Waaaaay too much for a breeder like this. I'd happily pay that for the right breeder. 

While you don't make much money breeding, having 4 litters averaging maybe 6 pups each @ 750 puts $18,000 in her pocket. Even with vaccines and toys that's still a huge profit, as long as there aren't c-sections or anything. Pretty penny for not a lot of prep work. (No $ going into showing/testing parents, etc.)


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

Kingfisher said:


> WHOA $750. Waaaaay too much for a breeder like this. I'd happily pay that for the right breeder.
> 
> While you don't make much money breeding, having 4 litters averaging maybe 6 pups each @ 750 puts $18,000 in her pocket. Even with vaccines and toys that's still a huge profit, as long as there aren't c-sections or anything. Pretty penny for not a lot of prep work. (No $ going into showing/testing parents, etc.)


Really? Where I live (central OR), most reputable breeders charge around 1000. I contacted seven or eight, on three d different breeds, before I narrowed things down, and the price was consistent. Of course, we pay idiotic prices for houses too.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

missc89 said:


> Parus - 750$ per pup, includes first set of shots, deworming, kennel cough vaccine, anti-parasite treatment, skin and cell analysis, leash, collar, harness, toys, bag of food... and milling _is_ illegal in Ontario and the Ontario SPCA and Petsmart AND the Quebec SPCA are working together to try and make mills illegal in Quebec too.


What's the actual law? I didn't turn anything up during a cursory search.



Kingfisher said:


> WHOA $750. Waaaaay too much for a breeder like this. I'd happily pay that for the right breeder.
> 
> While you don't make much money breeding, having 4 litters averaging maybe 6 pups each @ 750 puts $18,000 in her pocket. Even with vaccines and toys that's still a huge profit, as long as there aren't c-sections or anything. Pretty penny for not a lot of prep work. (No $ going into showing/testing parents, etc.)


Yes, and not even paying for formal health testing, just something about a friend who's a vet :\

Is she even paying stud fees, or just breeding dogs together that she happens to have on her on property?


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

ormommy, 750-1000 seems very average for a reputable breeder. But this is not one, unfortunately. This is breeding pets together, not what I'd consider a reputable breeder.

And no, she has no stud fees. She's breeding her own dogs together.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

parus said:


> What's the actual law? I didn't turn anything up during a cursory search.


 I found this, which states that puppymills are NOT illegal anywhere in Canada, but maybe it's outdated: http://www.nopuppymillscanada.ca/canadian_laws.htm

Also the bit about remodeling the barn for the dogs. . .sounds like they're planning for volume breeding. Pretty much everything mentioned is borderline, and a few borderline things would be one thing but that many things being iffy kinda tilts it in favor of NO for me.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

That was my understanding as well, but I haven't exactly been following Canadian law except as applied to avoiding getting hassled at the Canada/Alaska border.

I'd be interested in what's actually banned, if puppy mills are banned...some specific quantity of puppies produced?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Man, if you guys can find me a reputable breeder within a 4 hour drive from where I live (Ottawa, Ontario) that is the same price as this woman or within the same price range and can give me a puppy this year, I will GLADLY drop her and go to the other breeder. Average prices around where I live for a registered Aussie is about 1400$, which is almost double what I am paying for this dog.

I know that Petsmart and the Ontario SPCA are ALWAYS shutting down puppy mills, people get their dogs taken away, they get HUGE fines, and they are NEVER allowed to own dogs ever again, as well as their property becomes impounded.

About the remodeling the barn for the dogs - she is remodeling her old horse barn (she had to get rid of her horses because she can't ride anymore) so that it has heating in the winter for her retired dogs / pet dogs. She owns about 20-25 dogs, but breeds 9 of them.

And no, I have not made a final decision on this breeder yet, and I won't until Sunday the 12th of April when a retired breeder I respect greatly comes with me and either gives me the thumbs up or the thumbs down on this one.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Glad I read through this thread. I made the mistake of not listening to these awesome people on here, spent 500 bucks on a badly bred aussie puppy... took her home. Went through some personal stuff I'm not going to get into now, had to rehome her... new owner contacted me a few months later to inform me that my 6 month old Lunetta had passed away because her vet medicated her with ivarmectin. Immediate death.


So you can understand why I'm having such issues in deciding on this breeder lol. Very sorry to hear about your experience, I extend my sympathies


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Man, if you guys can find me a reputable breeder within a 4 hour drive from where I live (Ottawa, Ontario) that is the same price as this woman or within the same price range and can give me a puppy this year, I will GLADLY drop her and go to the other breeder. Average prices around where I live for a registered Aussie is about 1400$, which is almost double what I am paying for this dog.
> 
> I know that Petsmart and the Ontario SPCA are ALWAYS shutting down puppy mills, people get their dogs taken away, they get HUGE fines, and they are NEVER allowed to own dogs ever again, as well as their property becomes impounded.
> 
> ...


You will be hard pressed to find a reputable breeder with that low of price. She can charge that low (Well it is high for what she is producing) because she isnt paying for much, no stud fee, bare minimum health testing that I doubt she is sending the results in, no showing/working/performance titling, her friend is a vet so I bet she is getting discounts on that front, etc. Good breeders do not cut corners, so their price reflects that. Personally I do not mind paying a little more to get a dog from a breeder who health tests all their stock (yes I am using the word stock), knows their line through and through, can tell me what they did this breeding for (and it is not because people wanted,puppies from this breeding), who title in some venue (preferably showing as that is what I am into), who have a direction they are going with their line, etc.

Did you check out any of the other breeders I sent you links to?


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

With regards to the price, you would probably have a heart attack with the price we paid for Annabel. And NextDog is even more! But it was completely worth it to us to have a breeder we were 100% comfortable with.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

If cost is an issue and you're limited in the distance, have you considered looking into getting a slightly older puppy? Sometimes breeders have dogs they have held back as potential show or competition prospects and if the dog grows a bit and doesn't turn out to have the qualities they are looking for (like, maybe too low in drive or such), then the dog is available to a pet home. Advantages can be that the dog should be started on good training, inc. house training and already have vaccines so you can get out and about right away.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Did you check out any of the other breeders I sent you links to?


I already messaged T.A. breeder and am keeping my fingers crossed with them. I've unknowingly been quoting her to everyone when asked why I'm getting an Aussie "I read somewhere 'if you don't want a shadow 24/7 then don't get an Aussie' so that's why I want one"


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

missc89 said:


> I already messaged terwin aussies and am keeping my fingers crossed with them. I've unknowingly been quoting her to everyone when asked why I'm getting an Aussie "I read somewhere 'if you don't want a shadow 24/7 then don't get an Aussie' so that's why I want one"


People say the same thing about Welshies.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And papillons.  

It's also very true with Hank too.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Read the thread. I have red flags waving to me and I wouldn't get a puppy from her. Why do you have to have a puppy in 2015? If it's money that is keeping you from another breeder, why not talk to breeders whho sound a bit more reputable and continue to save money?

Timely thread for me. I'm on the next dog hunt, most likely going for a puppy. I have the breeder I want....now need to save for a puppy & hope she doesn't have a pup for us before we have the money!!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

didnt read the whole thread but:

Well, I got Bear at 12 weeks, Izze went home at 6 weeks (before I knew better), Josefina was about 8 weeks, and Lincoln was 13 weeks. Josefina was an orphan, so I wanted to get her with an older dog (Izze) as soon as I could. Lincoln was with his litter and his mother (after being weaned) until I took him home, as was Bear. I will say that the dogs who stayed with their litter the longest were the most well adjusted, cant say that is typical, but its my experience.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Why I have to have a pup in 2015 - because I have already waited waaaayyy too long for this dog lol also I am moving to NZ in the next two years so I need to have my dog be at LEAST one year old by August 2017 so the latest I could get my dog is next Spring (which I would consider if I found the right breeder)

Definitely would be willing to get an older pup from a breeder that wasn't show quality or had too low of a drive.

Cash _was_ an issue, is not anymore (yay life is settling down!)

Still letting you guys know - Retired Breeder gives Yay or Nay for this breeder, that is my deciding factor. April 12th


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

What troubles me (and hasn't been brought up) is that you seem to think it's wonderful that she does nothing more than sit at home and care for her dogs. Who's paying for that? Oh, right, _her dogs_. She has the money to stay home and play with puppies (but not actually commit any money or time to showing or competing in anything, or getting testing done) because she has 4 litters on the ground in 6 months. At 750 per pup, average litter size of 10, 4 litters (let's pretend there won't be another 4 litters in the latter half of the year), that's $30,000. That's a nice big chunk of change for 6 months of not much work.

I dunno, I expect people to work for their money, not get it from the uteruses of their dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Amaryllis said:


> What troubles me (and hasn't been brought up) is that you seem to think it's wonderful that she does nothing more than sit at home and care for her dogs. Who's paying for that? Oh, right, _her dogs_. She has the money to stay home and play with puppies (but not actually commit any money or time to showing or competing in anything, or getting testing done) because she has 4 litters on the ground in 6 months. At 750 per pup, average litter size of 10, 4 litters (let's pretend there won't be another 4 litters in the latter half of the year), that's $30,000. That's a nice big chunk of change for 6 months of not much work.
> 
> I dunno, I expect people to work for their money, not get it from the uteruses of their dogs.


In fairness though to those breeders who might not have full time jobs and yet don't live off the income from producing puppies, it is entirely possible for someone to be retired with a pension or to have a spouse that makes good money or to be a stay at home parent etc and thus be able to spend a large portion of their day with the puppies. So being home all day could be a real plus, but agreed that in this care, it appears the puppies are a real income generator rather than being a time consuming hobby of someone that doesn't have to do the office 9-5 thing.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

missc89 said:


> I know that Petsmart and the Ontario SPCA are ALWAYS shutting down puppy mills, people get their dogs taken away, they get HUGE fines, and they are NEVER allowed to own dogs ever again, as well as their property becomes impounded.


That doesn't mean mills are illegal. That means those mills did something illegal.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said. I did, however, want to say that I think it is very admirable of you to post this and take all the constructive criticism so well. There are lots of people that ask about their choice of breeder, but seem to not really want the answer. I admire you for having the courage to move on and find a new breeder if this one truly isn't what you are looking for or not someone you are comfortable with supporting. Your future puppy, whether from this breeder or a different one (I would probably keep looking based on this thread, jmo), is going to be very lucky


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Amaryllis said:


> What troubles me (and hasn't been brought up) is that you seem to think it's wonderful that she does nothing more than sit at home and care for her dogs. Who's paying for that? Oh, right, _her dogs_. She has the money to stay home and play with puppies (but not actually commit any money or time to showing or competing in anything, or getting testing done) because she has 4 litters on the ground in 6 months. At 750 per pup, average litter size of 10, 4 litters (let's pretend there won't be another 4 litters in the latter half of the year), that's $30,000. That's a nice big chunk of change for 6 months of not much work.
> 
> I dunno, I expect people to work for their money, not get it from the uteruses of their dogs.


She is also a certified trainer and does a lot of other dog related things for her income, and her spouse is able to support her as well. And, unless she has a Welsh Terrier that goes in to heat, these are her last litters this year.

And honestly? I would LOVE nothing more than to be able to afford to sit at home with my dogs, and if my SO allows it, I will, because I will be training dogs. Would that make me a bad breeder as well? I do believe circumstance plays a big part and you guys are only getting a fraction of the puzzle, but I do appreciate all the help being offered with the small amount of information I have to share.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

To be honest I'm paying 1,800 for my puppy but it's a rough collie (large breed so that might make a difference) and all of her dogs are titled in something. Do you have a top out price of what it is the most you will pay for a puppy? it's understandable that you would want your puppy to be older to travel such a long distance to a different country.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Be careful about what you post, too... I found an amazing breeder (in regards to health testing, titling, etc)... well I shared my awesome news on here about it, and they found it and black listed me from ever buying from her. She was the only GOOD MAS breeder in the area. (In my own city)... and I screwed it up. I didn't even say bad things, and no one else did either! So... yeah, from experience, be very careful.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Be careful about what you post, too... I found an amazing breeder (in regards to health testing, titling, etc)... well I shared my awesome news on here about it, and they found it and black listed me from ever buying from her. She was the only GOOD MAS breeder in the area. (In my own city)... and I screwed it up. I didn't even say bad things, and no one else did either! So... yeah, from experience, be very careful.


Thanks for the advice, I edited it. That's kinda rude though that they black listed you just for talking about them especially if they're all good things


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Be careful about what you post, too... I found an amazing breeder (in regards to health testing, titling, etc)... well I shared my awesome news on here about it, and they found it and black listed me from ever buying from her. She was the only GOOD MAS breeder in the area. (In my own city)... and I screwed it up. I didn't even say bad things, and no one else did either! So... yeah, from experience, be very careful.


Umm.... Why? If someone is that sensitive, I don't want a dog from them anyways.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> Be careful about what you post, too... I found an amazing breeder (in regards to health testing, titling, etc)... well I shared my awesome news on here about it, and they found it and black listed me from ever buying from her. She was the only GOOD MAS breeder in the area. (In my own city)... and I screwed it up. I didn't even say bad things, and no one else did either! So... yeah, from experience, be very careful.


That's really strange to me. Why would they blacklist you for saying good things about them on a forum filled with dog lovers? That would seem like some awesome free advertising...


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Effisia said:


> That's really strange to me. Why would they blacklist you for saying good things about them on a forum filled with dog lovers? That would seem like some awesome free advertising...


That's what I was thinking, I wasn't too specific though


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> That's really strange to me. Why would they blacklist you for saying good things about them on a forum filled with dog lovers? That would seem like some awesome free advertising...


A lot of breeders do not want to be discussed openly in forums, especially by people they do not know and do not know well. The simple fact of the matter is, even good things being said in the moment - puppy gets sick, something happens genetics wise that couldnt' be tested for, whatever - and then they KNOW this person has a forum available to complaint and will have no compunction in doing so. I think it's paranoid as heck, but it's a thing, and even more of a thing when the forum if full of people who do, habitually, look for possible problems as a service to the person considering buying. We're very good at... exposing breeders. 

Whether or not they should be transparent is another issue (I tend to think I'd prefer they were, and find a lot of things hiding in the dark because people *don't* post about their dogs, the lines and breeders they came from and things that crop up as a result), but a lot of breeders REALLY hate the idea of that kind of discussion. 

And honestly I've never met a really good breeder who wants or needs advertising of that sort. Kind of like they don't put ads on craigslist, they don't take out ads in the paper, and most have waiting lists based on word of mouth and the odd email or phone call.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Yep. Everyone on this forum had great things to say about the breeder, no red flags, everything was just awesome. I was so excited, I wanted to share. I did post pictures from her breeder facebook page and the pics of what would have been my puppy (which is open to the public), and she flipped out, told me she doesn't want to sell to me anymore because I lost her trust... I asked a mod on here to delete my threads, and that was that... I just let it go.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

CptJack said:


> A lot of breeders do not want to be discussed openly in forums, especially by people they do not know and do not know well. The simple fact of the matter is, even good things being said in the moment - puppy gets sick, something happens genetics wise that couldnt' be tested for, whatever - and then they KNOW this person has a forum available to complaint and will have no compunction in doing so. I think it's paranoid as heck, but it's a thing, and even more of a thing when the forum if full of people who do, habitually, look for possible problems as a service to the person considering buying. We're very good at... exposing breeders.
> 
> Whether or not they should be transparent is another issue (I tend to think I'd prefer they were, and find a lot of things hiding in the dark because people *don't* post about their dogs, the lines and breeders they came from and things that crop up as a result), but a lot of breeders REALLY hate the idea of that kind of discussion.
> 
> And honestly I've never met a really good breeder who wants or needs advertising of that sort. Kind of like they don't put ads on craigslist, they don't take out ads in the paper, and most have waiting lists based on word of mouth and the odd email or phone call.


I totally get the reasoning. But anytime someone doesn't like their business discussed or critiqued, it makes me very nervous. Personally, I wouldn't want to do business with anyone that paranoid. But I tend to be a very reasonable and understanding client. If my dog were to get sick, my first reaction would not be to blame the breeder.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

parus said:


> For me besides the inherent problems with sending them home early, it's also a red flag to look out for a bunch of other problems, because it's a lazy and cheap thing for a breeder to do. It makes me wonder what other corners are being cut. Unless there's a valid extenuating circumstance or legitimate explanation, me personally, I'd probably go elsewhere if they won't keep the dog for the extra week, there being no shortage of puppies in this world.
> 
> It's also illegal in a lot of places.
> 
> It's entirely possible I'm unhealthily cynical, but I think a lot of questionable breeders rely on getting people attached to the pup (or to the idea of the pup) to get iffy things excused despite the buyer's better judgement.


I don't think you really get breeders, there is a "shortage" of GOOD puppies in this world, for the reasons you mentioned, because there are a lot of iffy breeders!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Even though I have paid for him and he is mine ... I still asked Lincoln's breeder if he was ok to post the pics she took of him as a pup. 

Also I have read this entire thread and I have to say that I don't get the warm fuzziness from this breeder, if you have a better option, I would go with that.


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

I just read through this thread and if it were me I'd pass on this litter. Too many red flags and that price is pretty steep for this puppy. If she did something with the parents(trailing of any kind) than that price would be fine but these are just pet dogs. That's about what Roos litter was priced at for the pet pups anyways. $1000 for show/breeding pups and the parents have many titles in a variety of things. I'm not sure how things are in Canada but I think if you keep looking around you can find a better breeder to support. Like others have said, I wouldn't be too concerned about the 7 weeks thing though if you do go with this pup. Both of my Aussies came home at 7 weeks.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> A lot of breeders do not want to be discussed openly in forums, especially by people they do not know and do not know well. The simple fact of the matter is, even good things being said in the moment - puppy gets sick, something happens genetics wise that couldnt' be tested for, whatever - and then they KNOW this person has a forum available to complaint and will have no compunction in doing so. I think it's paranoid as heck, but it's a thing, and even more of a thing when the forum if full of people who do, habitually, look for possible problems as a service to the person considering buying. We're very good at... exposing breeders.
> 
> Whether or not they should be transparent is another issue (I tend to think I'd prefer they were, and find a lot of things hiding in the dark because people *don't* post about their dogs, the lines and breeders they came from and things that crop up as a result), but a lot of breeders REALLY hate the idea of that kind of discussion.
> 
> And honestly I've never met a really good breeder who wants or needs advertising of that sort. Kind of like they don't put ads on craigslist, they don't take out ads in the paper, and most have waiting lists based on word of mouth and the odd email or phone call.


I can see that. I tend to have a skewed perception of things like this since my job is social media, and managing poor reviews, complaints, and crazy people just comes with the territory. Having GOOD feedback is like a breath of fresh air. I guess from my perspective, I'd rather engage (with both positive and negative feedback) and expand my reach/brand, but my job also doesn't involve creating and caring for tiny little puppy lives.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I get why a breeder might not want everything online, and why they might ask someone to take down pictures or threads, but I think it's outrageous to not sell them a puppy because of it, especially if the person takes the photos down. 

Personally, I think we need more transparency in breeding, not less. It doesn't mean people should slam breeders on forums, but not talking about it because the breeder might get upset is not ok with me.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> I get why a breeder might not want everything online, and why they might ask someone to take down pictures or threads, but I think it's outrageous to not sell them a puppy because of it, especially if the person takes the photos down.
> 
> Personally, I think we need more transparency in breeding, not less. It doesn't mean people should slam breeders on forums, but not talking about it because the breeder might get upset is not ok with me.


After all, someone could NOT question anything, buy the puppy and THEN get on forums/facebook/etc and slam the breeder. I would think that if someone asks detailed questions and weighs all the information carefully and chooses to get the puppy after having as much feedback as possible, that they would be more likely to be satisfied with their purchase, more understanding of the stuff that can go wrong without fault, and less likely to complain than if someone went in without doing background research and then found out information later that may or may not have swayed their purchase but they'd be stuck at that point.

My thought process would be that if I am going to spend $1000+, then I want as many 3rd party opinions and critiques as possible. If I am going on a vacation, I can look at Trip Adviser and Yelp and travel blogs. Buying a car, Consumer Reports or Car and Driver etc. A computer, CNET and tech forums etc. But those types of resources don't exist for breeders (and I am not saying they should) so discussion forums for dogs and facebook are two of the potential resources to learn more. All reviews, both positive and negative, should be read with a careful eye and everyone is going to have their opinion on what a breeder should or shouldn't be doing, but the more information someone has, the more well thought out their purchase can be.

Public facebook photos are just that, public. I don't see how there is a "loss of trust" from sharing unless the photos were friends only and shared without permission or if they were used in a commercial manner/without attribution to the photographer or similar.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Shell said:


> After all, someone could NOT question anything, buy the puppy and THEN get on forums/facebook/etc and slam the breeder. I would think that if someone asks detailed questions and weighs all the information carefully and chooses to get the puppy after having as much feedback as possible, that they would be more likely to be satisfied with their purchase, more understanding of the stuff that can go wrong without fault, and less likely to complain than if someone went in without doing background research and then found out information later that may or may not have swayed their purchase but they'd be stuck at that point.
> 
> My thought process would be that if I am going to spend $1000+, then I want as many 3rd party opinions and critiques as possible. If I am going on a vacation, I can look at Trip Adviser and Yelp and travel blogs. Buying a car, Consumer Reports or Car and Driver etc. A computer, CNET and tech forums etc. But those types of resources don't exist for breeders (and I am not saying they should) so discussion forums for dogs and facebook are two of the potential resources to learn more. All reviews, both positive and negative, should be read with a careful eye and everyone is going to have their opinion on what a breeder should or shouldn't be doing, but the more information someone has, the more well thought out their purchase can be.
> 
> Public facebook photos are just that, public. I don't see how there is a "loss of trust" from sharing unless the photos were friends only and shared without permission or if they were used in a commercial manner/without attribution to the photographer or similar.


Couldn't agree more.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

I did ask around with some of the clients that she has on her blog, facebook, and website, and they all really loved her, which is why I was more keen on leaning towards her in the beginning on the first place. None of them had really mentioned any concerns about her or the way she treated the dogs, because she is always there to give support, keeps in touch with the people who have her dogs, and is willing to take them back should anything happen.

I am definitely keeping my fingers crossed that T.A. decides I would be a good candidate for one of their pups.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

missc89 said:


> I did ask around with some of the clients that she has on her blog, facebook, and website, and they all really loved her, which is why I was more keen on leaning towards her in the beginning on the first place. None of them had really mentioned any concerns about her or the way she treated the dogs, because she is always there to give support, keeps in touch with the people who have her dogs, and is willing to take them back should anything happen.
> 
> I am definitely keeping my fingers crossed that T.A. decides I would be a good candidate for one of their pups.


And this is a great example of why people should be able to discuss breeders in forums like this. After all, it was on HER blog, HER facebook page and HER website that those client contacts were found. When someone has full editorial control over the comments, they don't tend to include comments or references by/from those that are upset with them or heavily critical of their practices. And of course, it is quite possible for someone to take good care of their dogs, to keep in touch and be willing to take a dog back and yet still have other questionable breeding practices.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Shell said:


> And this is a great example of why people should be able to discuss breeders in forums like this. After all, it was on HER blog, HER facebook page and HER website that those client contacts were found. When someone has full editorial control over the comments, they don't tend to include comments or references by/from those that are upset with them or heavily critical of their practices. And of course, it is quite possible for someone to take good care of their dogs, to keep in touch and be willing to take a dog back and yet still have other questionable breeding practices.


Agreed - I really do hope this thread can help other people in choosing their breeder. Learn from my experience people!


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

missc89 said:


> Agreed - I really do hope this thread can help other people in choosing their breeder. Learn from my experience people!


It's pretty awesome how open minded you are, and willing to take advice. You don't often find that in someone who already has their heart set on something.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I'm going to be looking at breeders next year myself so I have been lurking around this thread  I've been to a breeder before but I wasn't a member here yet so I didn't know what to look for. Then Xena kinda fell into my lap so I want to do it right this time and so this helps a lot!


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

chimunga said:


> It's pretty awesome how open minded you are, and willing to take advice. You don't often find that in someone who already has their heart set on something.


Thank you very much! I honestly respect your (everyone here) opinions a lot, but I always try to keep in mind that I have all of the information, and you guys are like devils advocate to make sure I am doing right by this dog (which I LOVE and APPRECIATE so NO ONE apologize for ANYTHING you've said!) and in the end, it is my decision but I will always look at every single angle before I make it.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

lauren17 said:


> I just read through this thread and if it were me I'd pass on this litter. Too many red flags and that price is pretty steep for this puppy. If she did something with the parents(trailing of any kind) than that price would be fine but these are just pet dogs. That's about what Roos litter was priced at for the pet pups anyways. $1000 for show/breeding pups and the parents have many titles in a variety of things.


Yep. Prices here (Alaska) are steep for everything, and nice pet-bred dogs generally top-out at less than this lady is charging, even with more thorough and well-documented health testing than she's doing.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Alright, so if all goes to crap with the breeder I have now on the 12th of April, I am able to make an appointment with T.A. for May 2nd for a pup from one of their litters, so I will let you all know by Monday, April 13th what's going on.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I sent you a list of breeders who do OFA testing, in a 250 mile radius of your area, did non of them work out?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Keechak said:


> I sent you a list of breeders who do OFA testing, in a 250 mile radius of your area, did non of them work out?


They were all very expensive (at the time) and me being the idiot I was wanted a dog like RIGHT NOW! and I had enough cash to get a dog, so I went with another breeder. Ask me how happy I am that I asked you guys for advice before I went through with the purchase? 

Don't worry, I'll answer - I'm leaning more towards changing breeders though, because after looking at them side-by-side (T.A. [one of the ones you suggested] and Current Breeder), T.A. really does look like the better breeder. I will PM you the breeder I'm (probably) going to end up going with. 

So...VERY happy I decided to post on here.. I think the fact that this breeder made me panic when I came home from visiting her is a pretty good indication I should switch.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

missc89 said:


> They were all very expensive (at the time) and me being the idiot I was wanted a dog like RIGHT NOW! and I had enough cash to get a dog, so I went with another breeder. Ask me how happy I am that I asked you guys for advice before I went through with the purchase?
> 
> Don't worry, I'll answer - I'm leaning more towards changing breeders though, because after looking at them side-by-side (T.A. [one of the ones you suggested] and Current Breeder), T.A. really does look like the better breeder. I will PM you the breeder I'm (probably) going to end up going with.
> 
> So...VERY happy I decided to post on here.. I think the fact that this breeder made me panic when I came home from visiting her is a pretty good indication I should switch.


Good for you 

It must be a hard decision but seriously, mad respect for you for actually being able to look past the cute puppy to the pros and cons of the breeder!


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

taquitos said:


> Good for you
> 
> It must be a hard decision but seriously, mad respect for you for actually being able to look past the cute puppy to the pros and cons of the breeder!


I would go through my last year of high school again to not have to make this decision -.-


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Fun little FYI: when I told breeder T.A. She was recommended to me from here, she was all flustered and proud lol it was adorable


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Shell said:


> After all, someone could NOT question anything, buy the puppy and THEN get on forums/facebook/etc and slam the breeder. I would think that if someone asks detailed questions and weighs all the information carefully and chooses to get the puppy after having as much feedback as possible, that they would be more likely to be satisfied with their purchase, more understanding of the stuff that can go wrong without fault, and less likely to complain than if someone went in without doing background research and then found out information later that may or may not have swayed their purchase but they'd be stuck at that point.
> 
> My thought process would be that if I am going to spend $1000+, then I want as many 3rd party opinions and critiques as possible. If I am going on a vacation, I can look at Trip Adviser and Yelp and travel blogs. Buying a car, Consumer Reports or Car and Driver etc. A computer, CNET and tech forums etc. But those types of resources don't exist for breeders (and I am not saying they should) so discussion forums for dogs and facebook are two of the potential resources to learn more. All reviews, both positive and negative, should be read with a careful eye and everyone is going to have their opinion on what a breeder should or shouldn't be doing, but the more information someone has, the more well thought out their purchase can be.
> 
> Public facebook photos are just that, public. I don't see how there is a "loss of trust" from sharing unless the photos were friends only and shared without permission or if they were used in a commercial manner/without attribution to the photographer or similar.


It's truly shocking how many people think their facebook account is inherently private, like having an email conversation with friends. I'm not talking about locked down facebook accounts, either. Even locked down accounts are only one step removed from public. All it takes is one friend screencapping your post and putting it up on fstdt or stuff antivaxxers say, etc. People don't get it, though.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

missc89 said:


> Fun little FYI: when I told breeder T.A. She was recommended to me from here, she was all flustered and proud lol it was adorable


THAT is how a good breeder should act ... PROUD of her stock, tell her I said her dogs are just simply stunning.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> So...VERY happy I decided to post on here.. I think the fact that this breeder made me panic when I came home from visiting her is a pretty good indication I should switch.


What kind of panic.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

wvasko said:


> What kind of panic.


When she said she sent her pups home at 7 weeks after I had told her how important it was for me to have them go home at 8 weeks. This was one of the first things I mentioned to the breeder and continuously told her throughout our interaction. That was really the only red flag for me, and then there was still _something_ about the breeder because, even after asking people I knew, I still came on here for advice, and had a really good thread debate with you guys and I still wasn't able to shake the feeling that _something_ was bothering me about my old breeder. I went and actively sought out another breeder even though I already have a deposit with my old breeder, and I even have an appointment with new breeder (there's like a 1% chance I won't be getting a puppy from her. We spoke on the phone for over an hour and she's just so fantastic)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That's great that the breeder will have a puppy available for you! When are they due?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

They're due at the end of May so I don't actually have to wait THAT much longer for a new pup, but I'm back to not knowing its gender or colour lol. But there you have it everyone! I've dropped my old breeder and I am going with my new breeder, Terry from Terwin Aussie, who is absolutely amazing. 

Thank you to ALL of you for your advice! I feel a lot more confident in this new breeder. 

And I know I said I would give you guys an answer on Sunday but I don't really think you guys need to wait that long if I already know I'm going with the new breeder.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That's great news!


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> That's great news!


Thank you


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

Lol. We need to sticky this thread. "_How to respond when you have your heart set on a dog, but the breeder is throwing up a ton of red flags_"


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Fantastic! Congrats!


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I really admire you for being able to say no and wait, even if it's not that much longer I'm sure it was very hard


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

missc89 said:


> They're due at the end of May so I don't actually have to wait THAT much longer for a new pup, but I'm back to not knowing its gender or colour lol. But there you have it everyone! I've dropped my old breeder and I am going with my new breeder, Terry from Terwin Aussie, who is absolutely amazing.
> 
> Thank you to ALL of you for your advice! I feel a lot more confident in this new breeder.
> 
> And I know I said I would give you guys an answer on Sunday but I don't really think you guys need to wait that long if I already know I'm going with the new breeder.


That's awesome, good for you for listening to both your gut AND the advice from those with experience here! Wish more people did the same! Can't wait to see pics of the new pup!


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Yay! So excited for you!


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

That's great news. I'm sure it was a hard decision when you probably already felt a connection to the other puppy.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

missc89 said:


> They're due at the end of May so I don't actually have to wait THAT much longer for a new pup, but I'm back to not knowing its gender or colour lol. But there you have it everyone! I've dropped my old breeder and I am going with my new breeder, Terry from Terwin Aussie, who is absolutely amazing.
> 
> Thank you to ALL of you for your advice! I feel a lot more confident in this new breeder.
> 
> And I know I said I would give you guys an answer on Sunday but I don't really think you guys need to wait that long if I already know I'm going with the new breeder.


Congrats, that is awesome. Did you ask her what colors she expects to get out of the breeding? It would at least give you an idea of what to expect.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Congrats, that is awesome. Did you ask her what colors she expects to get out of the breeding? It would at least give you an idea of what to expect.


She is expecting everything out of these breedings, from reds to both merles and the tri's, so not much better haha.

And you're all right, it WAS a hard decision, but I don't feel inner chaos anymore, so I know it's the right decision.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Thumps up and internet hugs to you!

Sometimes the hardest thing is what you know is also the right thing.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Thumps up and internet hugs to you!
> 
> Sometimes the hardest thing is what you know is also the right thing.


Thank you! Internet hug back! And I agree 100%


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

missc89 said:


> She is expecting everything out of these breedings, from reds to both merles and the tri's, so not much better haha.
> 
> And you're all right, it WAS a hard decision, but I don't feel inner chaos anymore, so I know it's the right decision.


Like everyone else is saying  good job for making that hard decision and doing what's best for YOU because that's who has to raise the puppy  I'm excited to see what color you get


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Me too! I'll be starting a new (picture) thread once I get more information on the litters. 

What I am definitely relieved the most about is I can still get my puppy now heheh :redface: 

And thank you!


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

missc89 said:


> She is expecting everything out of these breedings, from reds to both merles and the tri's, so not much better haha.
> 
> And you're all right, it WAS a hard decision, but I don't feel inner chaos anymore, so I know it's the right decision.


Do you still want a blue merle?

I really love black tri aussies. If I ever got an aussie, it would be a female black tri.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

missc89 said:


> Me too! I'll be starting a new (picture) thread once I get more information on the litters.
> 
> What I am definitely relieved the most about is I can still get my puppy now heheh :redface:
> 
> And thank you!


You're not going to name him/her the same? Or are you thinking new puppy needs a new name?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

chimunga said:


> Do you still want a blue merle?
> 
> I really love black tri aussies. If I ever got an aussie, it would be a female black tri.


I REALLY do still want a blue merle, and she said she'd keep in mind that I want any merle, but we all know that personality is the most important factor. And with this breeder she doesn't allow visits until 4 weeks (which is when pups start getting their personalities) so I'm hoping I'm going to be better prepared to pick from this litter.



kcomstoc said:


> You're not going to name him/her the same? Or are you thinking new puppy needs a new name?


Depends on the colour and the gender.

Red female: Erza
Black/Blue female: Juvia
Red male: Laxus
Black/Blue male: Sterling


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

missc89 said:


> Depends on the colour and the gender.
> 
> Red female: Erza
> Black/Blue female: Juvia
> ...


We've got an anime fan over here


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

chimunga said:


> We've got an anime fan over here


OH yeah! Fairy Tale is SO COOL and I just love those characters


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

missc89 said:


> And with this breeder she doesn't allow visits until 4 months (which is when pups start getting their personalities) so I'm hoping I'm going to be better prepared to pick from this litter.


4 months? Or weeks?


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> 4 months? Or weeks?


Darn and I was doing so well lol 4 weeks you're totally right.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Darn and I was doing so well lol 4 weeks you're totally right.


Yeah I thought 4 months was a little weird, since by that time the pups should already be with their new owners.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

missc89 said:


> OH yeah! Fairy Tale is SO COOL and I just love those characters


I love all those names and the Erza one  just love it and will totally fit with a red female


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Chaos - I HOPE I get my dog by 4 months haha!

KCom - Right?? And her last name in the TV show is "Erza Scarlet" so I was thinking of incorporating Scarlet in to the show name (I'm still going to stick with Archer's 'Sterling Silver' Arrow for Sterling)


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

missc89 said:


> KCom - Right?? And her last name in the TV show is "Erza Scarlet" so I was thinking of incorporating Scarlet in to the show name (I'm still going to stick with Archer's 'Sterling Silver' Arrow for Sterling)


I remember  maybe something like Erza's 'Scarlet Fairy' Queen or something like that  I suck at show/registration names


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

This really should be a sticky. If I had seen this a year ago I wouldn't have my current dog. I got a couple flags from the breeder after I sent the deposit, but didn't have the heart to abandon my dream. Love my dog, wish I had reconsidered. 

I really, really, really applaud you for making this tough decision. Especially so young.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Kingfisher said:


> This really should be a sticky. If I had seen this a year ago I wouldn't have my current dog. I got a couple flags from the breeder after I sent the deposit, but didn't have the heart to abandon my dream. Love my dog, wish I had reconsidered.
> 
> I really, really, really applaud you for making this tough decision. Especially so young.


Thank you so much! It was a hard decision, I still have "original Sterling" as my background picture on my cell phone until I can get new pictures from my new breeder. I was definitely panicking literally from the moment I left the breeders until last night when I realized my decision was going to be switching breeders, then it kind of felt like the weight of the panic was gone and I knew I made the right decision.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Congrats on working this out with the new breeder. 

IMO these types of situations are like this: you may or may not have run into problems with the pup in the long run - lots of pups from subpar breeders turn out to be perfectly lovely dogs. But when you give a breeder a large chunk of change for a pup, you're not just buying the current pup, you're helping produce the breeder's next litter. So it's best to give that large chunk of change to someone you really WANT producing future litters. Voting with your pocketbook, basically.


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## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Congrats!!!! Can't wait to see pictures


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

Congrats! I think you will be much happier with this breeder, and her dogs look great! Can't wait to see your new pup when he or she arrives!


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

parus said:


> Congrats on working this out with the new breeder.
> 
> IMO these types of situations are like this: you may or may not have run into problems with the pup in the long run - lots of pups from subpar breeders turn out to be perfectly lovely dogs. But when you give a breeder a large chunk of change for a pup, you're not just buying the current pup, you're helping produce the breeder's next litter. So it's best to give that large chunk of change to someone you really WANT producing future litters. Voting with your pocketbook, basically.


I think a big part of my decision was the fact that I couldn't bring myself to support my old breeder anymore. I'd rather pay for a good breeder to keep doing what they're doing than to pay for a subpar breeder to keep going.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Yay congrats!! Checked out the new breeder website and (while I'm not an Aussie person and really have no idea), the dogs looked beautiful to me! You will be a LOT happier in the long run, even if you have to wait a bit more. The waiting is soooo worth it when you know you have a good pup from a breeder you can be proud of. Though I will commiserate with you - the waiting is pretty torturous!


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I', proud of you....most people wouldn't come here & ask all these questions and listen to the answers! I'm very happy for you!


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

InkedMarie said:


> I', proud of you....most people wouldn't come here & ask all these questions and listen to the answers! I'm very happy for you!


Thank you. It wasn't easy to listen lemme tell you lol


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I like that your new breeder was proud to be recommended online. I also liked how easy it was to find her dogs in the OFA database and see the testing being done and reported and to see a good discussion on health issues on her website. Good signs. Her dogs look lovely with such thick and gleaming coats.


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## ormommy (Mar 30, 2015)

I've read this whole thread, and I admire you so much.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

It sounds like you have made the right decision! Confo bred Aussies are generally really nice dogs so I'm sure you will be thrilled with your pup! Not to mention they are all kinds of gorgeous! My girl isn't hardcore confo (more versatility), but I'm very proud of where she came from. It's a good feeling to have a dog from a responsible breeder that does so much for their dogs and breeding program. I wouldn't worry at all which color or gender you get. They are going to be much "flashier" than the other breeder's dogs no matter what. Like I said before.. I didn't want a black tri. I got a black tri and she is the most beautiful dog in the world.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Thank you all three of you!

ForTheLoveOfDogs - she's absolutely gorgeous and your black tri and Keechaks are what softened my heart to the colouring. Well that and I can finally move past the fact that my first dog had the same kind of colouring lol it still hurts but the new pup will help with that.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

missc89 said:


> Thank you so much! It was a hard decision, I still have "original Sterling" as my background picture on my cell phone until I can get new pictures from my new breeder. I was definitely panicking literally from the moment I left the breeders until last night when I realized my decision was going to be switching breeders, then it kind of felt like the weight of the panic was gone and I knew I made the right decision.


Well ... I also wanted a blue merle or a red tri, and you see what I have now LOL

But seriously, this lady has some awesome dogs.


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

Yeah you will love whatever color you get I think. None of these pups will be unattractive. I was dead set on a blue Merle when I was getting my first Aussie and came home with a red Merle. Did not like red merles then and guess what my favorite color is now? And getting roo I wanted a red Merle but really I just didnt want a Merle with minimal white and I didn't like marbled eyes.. Look what I got and you know what? I think he is coolest colored Aussie I've seen!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I hated short coated bc....

Guess what I like best now?


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

lauren17 said:


> Yeah you will love whatever color you get I think. None of these pups will be unattractive. I was dead set on a blue Merle when I was getting my first Aussie and came home with a red Merle. Did not like red merles then and guess what my favorite color is now? And getting roo I wanted a red Merle but really I just didnt want a Merle with minimal white and I didn't like marbled eyes.. Look what I got and you know what? I think he is coolest colored Aussie I've seen!





CptJack said:


> I hated short coated bc....
> 
> Guess what I like best now?


I think your preference kinda shifts to what you have. I really wanted a Black headed tri corgi. Watson's a (very) red sable with dark markings and I just couldn't be happier with how damn cute he is.


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## akodo1 (Apr 8, 2015)

Pups go through different developmental stages. Up to this point, pups generally view anything new as normal and safe, but at roughly age 8 weeks pups view new things with a bit more fear. It's a 'hazard avoidance' response.

A breeder who wants to place pups at week 7 is attempting to make the new surroundings and family members more acceptable and cause less fear than they would a week or two later.

But there's another catch. Dog genetics and natural selection didn't have a calender. Is 8 weeks really the best date, or is 7 weeks 4 days even better? Or maybe 8 weeks 3 days. The truth is it varies by breed. Wolves generally go into that hazard avoidance at 20 days (this is part of the reason people talk about having to hand-rear wolves, their hazard avoidance window closes so early). Dogs have a a later window, generally around 49 days, but it varies by breed. GSD is at roughly 35 days and a lab is at roughly 72 days.

So to be honest, having a single 'rule of thumb' of 8 weeks and applying to ALL breeds, that should make everyone skeptical. If a knowledgeable dog person deviates SLIGHTLY from the generic rule of thumb, that shouldn't be a cause for concern.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Congrats on finding a new, better breeder!

This question isn't really as necessary for you now that you've changed my mind, but I'm curious (and for the sake of anyone else in a similar situation who may read this in the future): how was having 20-25 dogs NOT a red flag for you? I'm not saying it's impossible but that number just screams HOARDER to me.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Congratulations! I really, really appreciated how carefully you listened and thought about all the advice that was given to you, and hearing you say you DO feel better about Terwin Aussies and changing your mind makes me happy for you. I am so glad you were able to find a breeder to feel proud of and excited about. Are you on the list for the Porsche litter? Because WOW she is STUNNING! I normally do not like merles but I adore her head and structure.

For what it's worth, black tris are my absolute favorites in Aussies and BCs (black tris and black bis). 

These two dogs are the reason why <3

Owned by/Photo cred
























Owned by/Photo cred


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

I think it is amazing the way you listened to all the advice and made a well informed decision on this! We don't see that many times on here. haha Congratulations on the litter in May! I bet you are so excited! I see you have decided to go with Terwin Aussies, they are stunning dogs.  Which litter are you waiting for? Demi, or Porsche? I know that when I was looking for another Aussie I wanted a Red Tri so badly!! lol I ended up with Mason because he fit everything that I wanted and needed for a working and sporting pup. I wish you the best of luck with your new little bundle of joy!!


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## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

I have a book that's all about puppies, only about puppies, title is Puppies. So it's pretty in-depth on puppy development (British author). Talks about advantages/disadvantages of different ages bringing puppy home. 7 weeks apparently is not unusual for a working dog puppy. A "fear phase" starts at eight weeks for puppies so bringing puppy home at seven weeks brings pup home before that starts. Eight to twelve weeks pup gets extra time learning how to be a dog. Author didn't state what age was best, just stated what was happening psychologically and physically with puppy during those times. 7 weeks is okay in my opinion, based on my readings and own life experiences, though I do personally lean towards pup being with mom and litter until around twelve or fourteen weeks, get all their puppy shots in and lots of "canine puppyhood" in before having to "grow up". I imagine I'd have the opposite problem, finding a breeder willing to keep puppies so long (I wouldn't be looking for a toy breed). I don't understand why people want puppies and kittens so young myself. Enjoy your new puppy!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Just now read this thread, and up until the last few pages I was thinking that I'd have to post and add to the chorus of, "Too many red flags; please save up and purchase from a better breeder; it's worth it, I promise," but I see that you have indeed switched to a much better breeder. I'm very glad to hear that, and I look forward to seeing pics of your pup once he or she is born!


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

CrimsonAccent said:


> Congrats on finding a new, better breeder!
> 
> This question isn't really as necessary for you now that you've changed my mind, but I'm curious (and for the sake of anyone else in a similar situation who may read this in the future): how was having 20-25 dogs NOT a red flag for you? I'm not saying it's impossible but that number just screams HOARDER to me.


To answer your question - considering she has like 170 acres and also had had 2 horses before as well as a well-maintained and insulated barn for her other dogs (and I'm a huge animal lover), it didn't exactly strike me as odd that she had other dogs that were not breeding dogs. I'm hoping to have an animal rescue/rehab in my back yard when I settle permanently, so it didn't seem odd because in my mind I was thinking "Well, I'm going to have a lot of animals too and I don't think that would make me a bad person" but clearly I had my rose-coloured glasses on for a little too long.

Equinox - So beautiful!! I love all of the colours honestly (prefer merle) but I KNOW I will be happy with whatever Terwin gives me. I already like her a lot and I'm hoping she can help me with things like agility and obedience and stuff. 

I came on this forum because I knew you guys would give me a no b-s, unbiased opinion on my breeder, and if I don't make mistakes I'll never learn. I'm just glad that this mistake only has a price tag of the deposit of a pup, as opposed to say... a badly bred puppy's health and then I get too attached and I become heart broken because I have to put my dog down at 5 years of age instead of the 12-17 I'm expecting based on the breeds traits.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

WELL ...

Since we are posting picc of black tri aussies, here is MY black tri MAS, He will be 7 months on April 11th


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Ugh! Yeah okay I love all Aussie coats. I'm also kind of happier at the fact that this new breeder docks tails >< does that make me a bad person? Its not that I wouldn't take an Aussie with a tail (Original Sterling was going to have a tail) I just love wiggle butts so much


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Ugh! Yeah okay I love all Aussie coats. I'm also kind of happier at the fact that this new breeder docks tails >< does that make me a bad person? Its not that I wouldn't take an Aussie with a tail (Original Sterling was going to have a tail) I just love wiggle butts so much


Nope does not make you a bad person, at all.


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## Kingfisher (Jan 2, 2015)

Not a bad person, many people prefer docked dogs. When people think of the quintessential aussie, it doesn't involve a tail.

Although after knowing/loving my friend's aussie with a tail, I don't think I can ever see a docked aussie without thinking of how pretty its tail would have been. 

(But if any more is said in this area I fear that you'll have a dock vs no dock thread)


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Kingfisher said:


> Not a bad person, many people prefer docked dogs. When people think of the quintessential aussie, it doesn't involve a tail.
> 
> Although after knowing/loving my friend's aussie with a tail, I don't think I can ever see a docked aussie without thinking of how pretty its tail would have been.
> 
> (But if any more is said in this area I fear that you'll have a dock vs no dock thread)


Hahaha I'm the one who started the "Opinions on Cropping?" thread, so I'll just direct people to that thread instead.



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Nope does not make you a bad person, at all.


Haha thanks!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Hahaha I'm the one who started the "Opinions on Cropping?" thread, so I'll just direct people to that thread instead.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha thanks!


I kind of want to post this one breed cropped,in that thread to see what people would say about it, but I think I know the answer. Lol


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

Hahahaha good luck! I'll follow the thread to see how it turns out


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

missc89 said:


> Hahahaha good luck! I'll follow the thread to see how it turns out


Lol not sure if I will post it.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Lol not sure if I will post it.


Don't blame you in the least!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

missc89 said:


> Ugh! Yeah okay I love all Aussie coats. I'm also kind of happier at the fact that this new breeder docks tails >< does that make me a bad person? Its not that I wouldn't take an Aussie with a tail (Original Sterling was going to have a tail) I just love wiggle butts so much


Oh, yeah, wiggle butt is the best!!!!! and no, it doesnt make you a bad person at all. YOU are paying for the dog, and you SHOULD have the right to get the dog you want, regardless if that is a docked or natural dog.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

I know I'm better off, but it still hurt to cancel on the other breeder  I only got the guts to do it today, but it's finally done. I am officially not getting a dog from that breeder anymore.


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

Does not make you a bad person at all. I will never own an Aussie with a tail if at all possible.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

missc89 said:


> I know I'm better off, but it still hurt to cancel on the other breeder  I only got the guts to do it today, but it's finally done. I am officially not getting a dog from that breeder anymore.


You now have the "Dinosaur Dog Trainer" stamp of approval. I'm very proud of your actions.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Just curious if you are able to get your deposit back at all. I know usually they are non refundable.. but I would still ask. Otherwise.. well.. she actually got more money than if you would have stayed with her. Which is a really unfortunate way of looking at it. Still.. you will be supporting a good breeder and getting a very nice looking puppy.


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## missc89 (Jan 20, 2015)

wvasko said:


> You now have the "Dinosaur Dog Trainer" stamp of approval. I'm very proud of your actions.


Aww thank you!!! That means a lot to me actually.



ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Just curious if you are able to get your deposit back at all. I know usually they are non refundable.. but I would still ask. Otherwise.. well.. she actually got more money than if you would have stayed with her. Which is a really unfortunate way of looking at it. Still.. you will be supporting a good breeder and getting a very nice looking puppy.


I knew from day one I wouldn't get my deposit back if I decided to not go with this breeder, but of course at the time I didn't think she'd let me down.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

missc89 said:


> I know I'm better off, but it still hurt to cancel on the other breeder  I only got the guts to do it today, but it's finally done. I am officially not getting a dog from that breeder anymore.


Also you should NOT feel like a bad person for doing this. I have canceled on breeders before in the past, one was for the same reason as you, the other, more recently, was because I had a family emergency and had to postpone getting a puppy. My breeder was awesome and very understanding, and I ended up still getting one from her, and IMO it was meant to be because I got the dog I NEVER would have chosen otherwise, and he turned out to be the BEST choice!


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