# Where good dogs come from.



## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

"A really companionable and indespensible dog is an accident of nature... You can't get it by breeding for it, and you can't buy it with money. It just happens." -- E.B. White

Mr. White's opinion was expressed in 1940...I've noticed some of you have the same opinion. With Mr. White's opinion in mind, however, it's tempting to oppose it by saying good dogs come from good breeders, or that good dogs come from good parent dogs...especially with the technology and understanding available to us today. However, I have a different proposition for you...good dogs come from your own decisions. If you can accept this premise...you're on your own when you set out to find a good dog, you must be clear about what you're looking for, and you must do your homework...you'll accept my proposition. 

Then consider this... We live in an age when there is more behavioral and biological understanding than ever before...more so than even in Mr. White's time. It seems simple, if you make the right decisions, you'll deal with the right kind of people. Make the wrong decisions, and you'll be dealing with people who could care less if your dog lives into adulthood, costs you multiple visits to the vet, or inherits a temperament ill fitted for our companionship. It seems simple, yet, we discuss at great length the epidemics and moral failures that still exist. Why? 

Is it that some of us didn't ask the fundamental question _should I own a dog?_ Or is it because we didn't consider our adoption options before buying from a breeder? Or is it as simple as, I_ didn't know what research I should do?_

So I ask you then_, where do good dogs come from_? What do I need to do as a buyer, adopter, or foster to find a good dog? Where should I start? What do I need to know? What questions should I ask? What red flags should I look for?


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## siberian husky lover12 (Nov 17, 2006)

Wow, that was so touching. And I'm not being sarcastic, here I mean it. Because Yeah tis true, hard to find a good dog, that dude is soooo right. And this may sound wierd, but i would give my own life for Princess. She's like my sister or something you know. She listens to me when no one else will. Thats how close i am to my dog.


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## petsense107 (Feb 22, 2007)

*well*

Thing thing Im going to say is what most people will tell you. Its all in how a dog is raised. Any and every do g has the propensity to be a "good" dog. whats a good dog anyways? Smart, sweet, potty trained? I mean Im not contradicting you, or not trying to, but when getting a dog, the determinig factor should be are you willing to spend the time to raise the dog like you would have him. Ask breeders questions, ask shelters questions, just ask questions and you will find a dog suitble for you and whatever life you may lead.

excuse all the spelling errors I was in a hurry


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

petsense107 said:


> Thing thing Im going to say is what most people will tell you. Its all in how a dog is raised. Any and every do g has the propensity to be a "good" dog. whats a good dog anyways? Smart, sweet, potty trained? I mean Im not contradicting you, or not trying to, but when getting a dog, the determinig factor should be are you willing to spend the time to raise the dog like you would have him. Ask breeders questions, ask shelters questions, just ask questions and you will find a dog suitble for you and whatever life you may lead.


What questions would you ask? What kind of breeders would you ask these questions of? What questions would you ask from a shelter? What would turn you away from one breeder over another? There's more to finding a good dog then needing to work with it. How do you determine smart? How do you determine sweet? And I'm sorry, but not every dog has the propensity to be a good dog. Example, guide dogs. Only a fraction of pups bred to be guide dogs actually become guide dogs. There are tests to determine which pup will be a candidate to be a guide dog. There are tests after you work with the dog that will determine if the dog will be a guide dog. If there are tests to separate a good guide dog from your average companion dog, isn't there more that can be used to determine what dog will be a good dog for you? It certainly can't be as easy as working with a dog. Yes, the dog's living environment is important, but what I'm looking for is what can an owner do to insure they are selecting the right dog for them before they are the dog's owner. You have to consider my proposition before answering this question.


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## LaRositaMonita (Feb 16, 2007)

I cannot agree with your sentiments more wholeheartedly. I am one week into my own dog search, and am finding myself with more questions than answers, even though I have done tons of research. I also cannot believe how strongly breeders are lauding me for really doing my homework when doing research before talking to anyone just seemed like second nature. I don't want *a* dog; I want *my* dog, and with that should first come assessment as to what *my* dog might look and sound and act like. 

The best answer I can come up with is, in short, that a good dog can come from anywhere. The source will probably be as individual as the owner. We started out on a search for the best Pembroke Welsh Corgi breeder in our area on Thursday, and, if all goes well a few weeks down the line, will quite probably find ourselves taking three trips out to Ohio (a five-hour drive away) to meet the parents of our not-yet born Cardigan Welsh Corgi pup. We met the breeder by complete chance after she contacted us about a rescue dog we can't adopt because of timing. She kept us on the line longer after reading some internet forum posts we made (not here) taking issue with the cost of purebred pups near us. We want a quality dog, but I'm not convinced that I need to spend $1200 to get a pet-quality puppy whose closest contact to Westminster will be watch it on TV with us. Luckily this breeder doesn't think so either and is the first we've found who health check and guarantees her dogs to death while only charging $500. She also conveniently was the first to even suggest, after grilling us first thing about our lifestyle when she got us on the phone, that we check into Cardis instead of Pembrokes. 

Basically, the point of my ramble is that to find a good dog you need to keep your eyes open and look everywhere. The mom of our litter isn't for-sure pregnant yet, so we're still hearing from rescue and are on one or two lists of more local breeders in case. Our dog is out there somewhere, and we'll find him or her soon....

...though it might be valid to also wonder if our good dog isn't going to actually find us.


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## petsense107 (Feb 22, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> What questions would you ask? What kind of breeders would you ask these questions of? What questions would you ask from a shelter? What would turn you away from one breeder over another? There's more to finding a good dog then needing to work with it. How do you determine smart? How do you determine sweet? And I'm sorry, but not every dog has the propensity to be a good dog. Example, guide dogs. Only a fraction of pups bred to be guide dogs actually become guide dogs. There are tests to determine which pup will be a candidate to be a guide dog. There are tests after you work with the dog that will determine if the dog will be a guide dog. If there are tests to separate a good guide dog from your average companion dog, isn't there more that can be used to determine what dog will be a good dog for you? It certainly can't be as easy as working with a dog. Yes, the dog's living environment is important, but what I'm looking for is what can an owner do to insure they are selecting the right dog for them before they are the dog's owner. You have to consider my proposition before answering this question.



the example of a guide dog has nothing to do with attitude. You never said you were curious as to the functionality of the dog, but the personality. Ask breeders: how much time do you spend with this puppy a day, what kind of routines are you on, and in past litters when checking back on your pups a few years down the road how did they turn out. Any good breeder will keep in touch with people who buy their puppies. Ask shelters if they have any background knowledge on the dog and when spending time with the dog how does he act. You cant insure a dog is going to be perfect that would be like a woman going to a sperm bank and asking which sperm is going to give me the most well-behaved child?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

petsense107 said:


> the example of a guide dog has nothing to do with attitude. You never said you were curious as to the functionality of the dog, but the personality. Ask breeders: how much time do you spend with this puppy a day, what kind of routines are you on, and in past litters when checking back on your pups a few years down the road how did they turn out. Any good breeder will keep in touch with people who buy their puppies. Ask shelters if they have any background knowledge on the dog and when spending time with the dog how does he act. You cant insure a dog is going to be perfect that would be like a woman going to a sperm bank and asking which sperm is going to give me the most well-behaved child?


I'm sorry if you missed my intent. I'm trying to segregate bad decisions from good decisions when selecting a dog. I thought that was clear...maybe it wasn't. The example of the guide dog was merely to suggest that not all dogs are created equal, therefore, not all dogs, regardless of training, will be good dogs. And I'm sorry, but there are things an owner can do to insure they are selecting a good dog. I never said guarantee, I said insure. And as far as your sperm example, I'm pretty sure the donor is asked many questions about their background. Or I should say, I would ask that question before considering a sperm sample...that's what I would do to insure I wasn't getting sperm from a donor with qualities I wasn't looking for. Do you understand my intent now?


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## petsense107 (Feb 22, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I'm sorry if you missed my intent. I'm trying to segregate bad decisions from good decisions when selecting a dog. I thought that was clear...maybe it wasn't. The example of the guide dog was merely to suggest that not all dogs are created equal, therefore, not all dogs, regardless of training, will be good dogs. And I'm sorry, but there are things an owner can do to insure they are selecting a good dog. I never said guarantee, I said insure. And as far as your sperm example, I'm pretty sure the donor is asked many questions about their background. Or I should say, I would ask that question before considering a sperm sample...that's what I would do to insure I wasn't getting sperm from a donor with qualities I wasn't looking for. Do you understand my intent now?


Yes and sorry for not interpreting your point, working at the store i have people come in and ask all the time if I know any people that breed "good" dogs so having the freedom to debate on here and not in the store kinda was my motivation, but I see what your saying now and I understand all dogs arent created equal, but at anycost I enjoyed 'debating' with you if you can call it that you raised some thought provokers. As far as avoiding bad decisions i would just say talk to the ownners of dogs you enjoy being around and ask what they did when finding their dogs.


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## Sawyer (Nov 14, 2006)

You mentioned technology a couple of times - and although I love the internet and all it offers, I think some people (understandably) confuse fact with opinion while doing their research. I'm not sure the internet offers the substantiated facts allowed in good ole fashioned library research. My first advice, regarding the questions you post, is check out you library first, and for months. There is so much good stuff out there to take in.


I think I get where you're going so, in response:
*What do I need to do as a buyer, adopter, or foster to find a good dog?*
be honest with yourself about what you want, what you can handle, how much time, money, patience you have. _Be honest_, what can you afford, how much time can you give, how much time do you want to give?
*Where should I start?*
The library. The local shelter. A trainer you like. People in the dog business want to help dogs find good homes. IME, they are willing to help.
*What do I need to know? What questions should I ask? What red flags should I look for*
You need to know first, what you want. Then you need to know what is common in shelters near you. If you are looking into breeders, you need to know how to chose a good breeder. Again, the library will help with q's to ask, etc.

What do I know? I'm just going by what I did.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

petsense107 said:


> Yes and sorry for not interpreting your point, working at the store i have people come in and ask all the time if I know any people that breed "good" dogs so having the freedom to debate on here and not in the store kinda was my motivation...


No apology necessary, I should have been more clear. And I would agree, a store is probably not as ideal of a place to debate as a forum. 



petsense107 said:


> As far as avoiding bad decisions i would just say talk to the ownners of dogs you enjoy being around and ask what they did when finding their dogs.


Yes! Talk to dog owners first before taking on a dog. Use anonomous dog owners as references for breeders, or shelters. I've found dog owners of good dogs are rich with information about how they found their dog, and about how easy or hard they are to care for. However, dog owner alone should not be used as a sole source for gathering your information.



Sawyer said:


> My first advice, regarding the questions you post, is check out you library first, and for months. There is so much good stuff out there to take in.


Absolutely! Most books aren't going to lead you to an advertisement like the internet does. There's a wealth of information that can be found in a good book, and most times it's more detailed than anything you'll find on the net. 



Sawyer said:


> be honest with yourself about what you want, what you can handle, how much time, money, patience you have. _Be honest_, what can you afford, how much time can you give, how much time do you want to give?


Yes! Answer the question, _should you even own a dog? _I couldn't agree more about being honest with yourself. Every potential owner needs to look into their heart. Your heart will tell you if there is no space in your life for a dog...if a dog's life will be mostly unrelieved solitary confinement, if you will not train your dog, if the essnce od dog is irritating instead of pleasing, if you want a dog only for protection or as a banner of the ego, if a voice whispers to you that should things not work out you can always take the dog to a pound, you should not have a dog! You don't need me to tell you these things, let your conscience be your guide. 




Sawyer said:


> You need to know first, what you want. Then you need to know what is common in shelters near you. If you are looking into breeders, you need to know how to chose a good breeder. Again, the library will help with q's to ask, etc.


Conventional wisdom does suggest you should begin by deciding on a breed. There's something to be said for this. It makes no sense to choose a dog that isn't compatible with your lifestyle, otherwise, there will be suffering of both dog and human. Give or take a few, worldwide there are as many as 600 breeds and varieties. And of course, a whole music composition of genes can be played at your local shelter too. My point is between shelters and known breeds there are probably several breeds one could consider. I've recommended here in our forum that anyone considering getting a dog should investigate several breeds simultaneously to open up options...this is especially important when choosing an excellent breeder. I'd like someone to go more into detail on how to find an excellent breeder.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

This is what I did 
Our Lula is a rescue and we have been really lucky in a way - no problems , touch wood. Every dog we get will be a rescue and then a good bred one. Support the ones that are doing it properly amd save a lfe.
T%o me a good breeder is:
They ask ques6tions


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Tamara said:


> To me a good breeder is: They ask ques6tions


Absolutely a good breeder will. It's a good sign you're dealing with a breeder who views placing puppies as something closer to an adoption procedure than a commercial transaction. They will ask you, _why are you interested in the breed? _They will want to know if your lifestyle and living arrangements are compatible with the character of the breed in question. They will want to know if you can provide for the physical, mental, and social well-being of the dog. I contend that you do not buy from a breeder who do not exercise this kind of discrimination. 

This is only one part of finding a good breeder, what else is there to know?


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

Oops sorry my laptop crashed at home and it must have sent that on its own accord. I also meant to list:

They are motivated by the love of their breed. they explain why they have chosen a particular line and how it is striving to improve the breed since ultimately they breed to improve the gene pool of their breed 

They are active in showing/obedience/hunting/agility, etc. 
They should talk to you about the breed in general, explain total breed care & educate you to the best of their ability. (Obviously you should have done your own research too)

They socialise the puppies - get them used to household noises, people etc...

They will help you choose a puppy that has a temperament that's compatable with you and your experience--and may talk you out of a puppy that you like if they do not think you and the pup are compatible. 

They will provide you with pedigrees, health test results such as clear eye certificates and hip scores for both the mother and father. Personally I looked for a breeder that had health reports going back a few generations 

They will always show you the motherand (if possible) the dad 

They will discuss feeding, give you the food being used. 

They give you the ennel Club registration forms - eplain them and sign over ownership.

The area the pups are kept is immaculate.

They will refund your money or give you a replacement puppy if your puppy develops any health problems. 

They should always be there for you throughout your puppy's life, and be available to help you look after the puppy if your circumstances should change or for some raeson you can't keep the dog even later in life. 

They will have a contract for you to sign stating :
You cannot breed the dog without written permission
You cannot take the dog out of the country without written permission
They want to know any medical issues throughout the dog's life

I'm sure there are more things. When we went looking for our Isabel the main things were health and size. (Isabel's pedigree goes back to 1860 when the first Bassets were imported  )IMO too many Basset breeders are creating dogs too big, too long and too short. So I looked for good proportions and ones that's undercarriage was clearly a good bit off the ground !

And as somebody said before (if you are not rescuing)finding a reputable breeder does give you peace of mind


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## Captbob (Feb 2, 2007)

An excellent book that addresses many of these questions that I am currently reading is *Good Owners, Great Dogs. * by Brian Killcommons 


http://www.amazon.com/Good-Owners-Great-Brian-Kilcommons/dp/0446675385


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Tamara said:


> And as somebody said before (if you are not rescuing)finding a reputable breeder does give you peace of mind


That was an excellent post detailing many of the things I would look for in a good breeder. So to sum up your excellent post we can say that in finding a reputable breeder you need to look for their morality, their helpfulness, their written guarantees, their conditions of sale, evidence of health and hygiene, their knowledge of socialization, and their curiosity in you. 

Their morality should be a passion towards breeding excellent dogs. 

Their helpfulness will be evident by how much they advise you on readying your home for the new pup, answering questions, and getting progress reports. 

Their guarantees should contain clauses against genetic disease, especially those prevelant to the breed, and what will happen should your dog ever get sick. Obviously, a lifetime guarantee is a bigger committment by the breeder than a 1 yr. You'll also want to physically see copies OFA and CERF certificates on both parents, and they should be readily available. Your contract should contain a clause restricting transfers. It should also have provisions for if and when the dog should be spayed or neutered, and if it is a breeding quality dog, it should detail what age the dog may be bred. If the dog is spayed/neutered, your papers should be withheld until the dog is fixed. 

Evidence of health and hygiene requires a site visit to the breeder's home. You need to look for modest comfort, and cleanliness. Obviously if the puppies are being housed in a dank basement or a dark, greasy garage, if you don't see hoses and cleaning supplies near the runs, if the place stinks, if the puppies have dirty ears, severe infestations, runny eyes or noses, if the parent dogs don't appear to be in the pink, thank the breeder kindly and leave. Under no circumstances buy from a breeder who won't let you inspect their premises. It should go without saying then, you should never buy a mail-order puppy, an internet puppy, a pet store puppy, a puppu mill puppy, a puppy from a broker, or an auctioned puppy because you're taking a gamble that turns out badly for thousands of people every year. 

The breeder is responsible for a lot more than just the physical well-being of the litter. Good breeders know that the best breeding in the world is wasted without proper socialization. So I beg of you, if you're going to buy a pup, know the critical learning periods of a pup's development, and quiz your breeder's opinion on them. A red flag would be any breeder desiring to give you the pup before 8 weeks of age. Some breeders, like mini schnauzer breeders believe 12 weeks is ideal for mini pups. So talk to as many breeders as you can to identify differences in opinion. 

If a breeder is reluctant to sell you a dog...don't be offended. Take heart instead. Buying a pup from a breeder should feel more like an adoptio process than a commercial transaction. They will ask you about your knowledge of the breed, if you're familiar with the drawbacks or needs. They want to know your living arrangements. And they'll want to know hoe you'll provide for the dog's physical, mental, and social well-being. If a breeder does not exercise this kind of discrimination, I contend that you should not buy from them. 

So now that you've researched many breeds, and found an excellent breeder, how do you choose a pup from the litter?


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Since no one has posted yet- please allow me to answer. 

Usually, if you buy from a good breeder, he or she will pick the puppy for you. Most dog owners don't know enough about dogs to be able to adequately pick a puppy. 

For example: say you have two puppies- one, the female, is rambunctious and rotten (in a good way). However, there's a larger, lower energy male also in the litter. 

Say a family comes in dead set on a male dog because of the following reasons: they're goofy, crazy, high energy and they have kids that would run the dog to death. 

Which puppy would you want to give them? Answer: the female. She's got more of the personality that they're looking for DESPITE the fact that they wanted a male. 

The family probably wouldn't have a clue about which one to pick, or would pick the boy just because its' a boy, and end up not having the puppy that they wanted. 

A good breeder will also to temperment tests for the pups to get a better idea of what kind of dogs they will become. For example, if you are testing for aggression, you deliberately make the puppy uncomfortable. You may put him on his back, or touch a sensitive area, or let someone new approach him to see how he acts. 

If he growls or snaps, you know that this dog will require lots of training, socialization, and a more experienced dog owner. 

Also, a good breeder will probably not let the pick go to just anyone. The pick will end up going to the stud, or to a show/ working home. 

If a breeder doesn't show, they don't really care what person gets what puppy. They just want to get them sold and out of their home/kennel. 

I don't know much about rescues, and I know that most pounds tend to let puppies go fairly easily.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Snowshoe said:


> Usually, if you buy from a good breeder, he or she will pick the puppy for you. Most dog owners don't know enough about dogs to be able to adequately pick a puppy.


I'd say this is very true, and what should be weighed is whether one could rely on the breeder. Siding with caution, I'd say no, I couldn't rely solely on the breeder. So I guess my next question is, should a potential puppy buyer have an understanding of the PAT (Puppy Aptitude Test) test or another means to test the puppy's temperament on your own? Would a breeder even allow this? What should we understand if a breeder does or does not accept our testing?


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

I am really pleased this came up again good dogs come from 
igood people and in my rant about breeders I forgot about the fantastic people that look after the dogs in shelters. They are all brilliant.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> So I guess my next question is, should a potential puppy buyer have an understanding of the PAT (Puppy Aptitude Test) test or another means to test the puppy's temperament on your own? Would a breeder even allow this? What should we understand if a breeder does or does not accept our testing?


As you said, it depends on the breeder. In my particular case, I was comfortable letting Orchid's human mom choose for me which puppy that I got. 

I think that some people are suckered in by terms like, "Home raised puppies" and "AKC Registered" and if the breeder throws those terms enough, they'll get a sell. 

Anyway, yes a layman can do their own test. It's really important to feel comfortable with the decision on the puppy. If you think that the breeder has picked out a puppy that's not what you wanted, then make sure they back up their choice with valid reasons. 

I would say that if you are a newbie to puppies, here are things you should watch out for: 
*a growly, snappy puppy*: it's cute now, but it won't be when he's a year and you have to muzzle him in public
*Timid/ shy puppy*: you're thinking, "Oh, how cute! he's shy like me!" It won't be cute in a year when you can't get him to leave the house, even to use the bathroom, due to fear issues. OR he turns into a fear biter
*the runt of the litter *: sometimes, the runt can be healthy. Often times, it just has to do with when that particular puppy was sired. However, smaller puppies may be an indication that the mother was not well fed during her pregnancy

Basically, you want a happy, playful, bright eyed puppy.


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## Marley (Mar 26, 2007)

Personally I commend you for asking these questions BEFORE you get a dog. Preparation and research can save you and your potential dog a lot of time, money, hassle. 

Consider your lifestyle: 
How many hours are you gone each day? 
Are you willing and able to be home every 4-8 hours? 
Do you have time EVERY DAY to spend with your dog?
Are you willing to make sacrifices for your dog?
Are you willing to pass up on vacations and trips if you can't find a reliable and dog-loving kennel or friend to take care of your dog?
Are you willing to come home after work before happy hour or going to the gym to let your dog out to exercise and go to the bathroom?
What kind of home do you have and how much space do you have? 
Do you rent or own, and how will having a dog affect your homeowners insurance or lease? 
If you rent, what happens when your lease is up and you have to find another place? Dog-friendly landlords are not easy to find, and typically charge more for rent if you have a dog. If you try and get one without telling the landlord, you can be evicted, or have to get rid of the dog with 24-48 hours notice. (This happened to me when I found an abused, malnourished dog who had been hit by a car. I wasn't trying to adopt the dog, I was just trying to keep her safe until I found a home, and I was lucky and found a great home for the dog.) 

Consider your financial ability to care for a dog:
Quality dog food is expensive, especially with larger dogs. Research dog food brands. www.dogfoodproject.com/
Vet bills add up quick, especially with monthly flea medications and heartworm meds. 
Kennels run $20 to $30 a day (maybe more depending on where you live)
Training and obedience classes also cost money, though less than replacing destroyed furniture, etc... 

Why do you want a dog? 
Make sure that your reasons for wanting a dog include making the dog happy, and caring for the dog 24/7. You need to be responsible for the dog everyday, not just when it's convenient for you. 

What kind of dog should you get:
You shouldn't get a dog because he or she "looks cute". You also shouldn't get a puppy because they are cute.
You need to consider how big the dog will get or already is. How much space do you have in your home? 
How much time do you have to give a dog and how active are you? Are your hobbies things you can do with your dog? (running, hiking, etc?)
If you work all day, a high maintanance and/or high energy dog probably isn't right for you. 
There are lots of websites that can give you some basic information practically all breeds of dogs. Remember if you are considering a mix, to research both or all breeds of the dog, because they can have any combination of traits. Try www.dogbreedinfo.com or http://www.akc.org/breeds/index.cfm
Also consider health issues that certain breeds have. Pugs tend to have respiratory issues and can't tolerate a lot of heat or exercise. German shepherd and labs tend to have hip problems. Think about this before buying a dog from a breeder and make sure you a buying a dog that has been vet checked for these issues. Some breeders offer guarentees on dogs, but with stipulations, like timeframes that you must go to the breeder with issues. Make sure that when you go to a breeder you know what the common health issues are, what the breeder guarantees are, and what you must do to ensure your puppy's or dog's health. 

A lot of people have already posted about breeders. They say that a dog is about 30% genes and 70% owner, so that is definitely something to consider with a "good dog". Good training, consistency, time, patience and commitment are all important traits to have with a dog. There are lots of good books out there on breeds, training, and dog ownership. 


I went to several shelters before I found Marley. I knew I didn't have time to devote to a puppy, so aside from considering buying an older dog from a breeder, I knew I would be looking mainly at classified ads and at shelters. I looked at about 1-13 dogs before I met Marley. I knew that I didn't just want a dog, I wanted my dog. I couldn't get a dog that didn't get along with other dogs, because of my roommate's dog, so that eliminated a few of the dogs I saw. I found two dogs that were brought from Hurricane Katrina area, and both were nice, but I didn't feel like I conected with either, and when I left to fill out the application and bring it back the next day, I never went back. Then I went to the shelter that Marley was at. I actually went to see another dog, but he had been adopted earlier that day. The woman brought out Marley and I just had a good feeling. He was gorgeous, tentative, but interested. He didn't just run up to me, but he did greet me and take a treat from me. He definitely had loyalty to the worker at the shelter, who had spent the last month with him. He would jump up on her, but it was so gentle, he just kind of leaned against her. It was there trick, and she would alway give him a good petting or a treat when he did it. He never went to the bathroom in his kennel, even over night, and they believed he was pretty much house trained as well. He was submissive to other dogs, but loved to play. He got along with the office cats, and every other dog in the place. 

I chose Marley because he was loyal, sweet, affectionate, energetic, but not overly playful to the point that he was rough with people or dogs. But the main reason I chose Marley was because as soon as I left the dog shelter, I felt like I was leaving "my dog" behind. I had said I needed to sleep on it, but put him on hold for a day. I also needed to get food and a collar and toys. But I hadn't even made it home before I called the shelter and said I'd be back the next morning. 

Marley wasn't perfect. He was overly shy to new people, wouldn't play with the roommate's dog, and wouldn't listen to me when I asked him to do something. That was 6 months ago. Now he loves new people, but is still reserved. He runs from aggression at the dog park. He is very loyal to me, but friendly to everyone. He's completely housebroken and crate trained. He barks once or twice at people or dogs when he's in the back yard, and then stops. He goes running and hiking with me. He's loving, afectionate, playful, lyoal, obedient, and just a really "good dog". I feel like we were destined for each other, and I'd gladly throw myself in front of a car to save him. Lately especially, I've been thinking about how happy he makes me and how he is like a kid to me. I'd do anything for him. He gets the best food, dog toys and trips to the dog park almost every single day. He's truly my best friend. 

If there's one peice of advice I can give, I'd say to take your time getting a dog or puppy and really wait until you find the dog that you can't leave behind. Spend time with the dogs, and see what you like about certain personalities and breeds. And finally, be very REALISTIC about the decision!


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

When I got my first pup, the breeder had two available out of a litter of five and one older dog that we wanted to look at. We ruled out the older one right away because he was very shy. Out of the other two, we had a favorite based on the pictures we'd seen and we went there thinking we'd probably put a deposit on that one. One had a face blaze, one a solid face - we liked the face blaze one. After spending literally hours with the puppies, the breeder said she thought the solid faced one would be a better fit based on his interaction with us. We liked the fact that he kept coming back and getting in my lap, while the other puppy was more interested in exploring the room. They were both super cute, but we went with her recommendation and our own gut feeling and got the solid faced one. It could still be luck, but we are very pleased with our pup. We've had him two months now and his temperment is perfect. He's outgoing, sweet, reponsive to us, not nippy.

When we got the second one, we were waiting for a specific color (sounds odd I know, but I really wanted a blue merle). We thought we'd have to wait through several litters, but the breeder called us and said she had one she was growing out for show, but he went oversize. The only thing we looked at the second time was whether or not he got along with our first dog. They did get along, and we took him home. The second one is much more shy than the first, but is still a very good dog. I guess we really got lucky there, because we hardly spent any time with him before we bought him. I think with puppies though, initial temperment is just a beginning point and the rest is in how you raise them. It'll be interesting to see how the shy one grows up compared to the outgoing one.

I should also add that I did months of research on breeds, breeders, rescues, training, etc before deciding to get a dog. By the time I got one, I was fully aware of all the downsides of my breed of choice and of dogs in general.


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## GlitterFlame89 (Mar 3, 2008)

I just wanted to say thanks so much for this post, because I am finding it EXTREMELY helpful in chosing a breeder/dog/rescue. We always went to the pund, found a nice young pup, and went from there, as a family. I want to do things "the right way", and this is just so helpful. I especially like the person who said "I'm not looking for _a_ dog, I am looking for _my_ dog, because that really sums it up perfectly. Thanks again!


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

Putting a deposit on a dog that won't be conceived for a year reduces the chance of getting a bad dog.

A good dog is more then a dog that is not bad. It is a dog that clearly improves the quality of you life.

There are 80 million pet dogs in the US. Maybe 5% were bred for heath and temperament from quality bloodlines. 

Are most of the good dogs concintrated in that group?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

tcasby said:


> Are most of the good dogs concintrated in that group?


If you accept my premise, yes. Again, if you make good decisions, you're not likely to deal with a breeder who doesn't health, temperament, and genetic test. 

If you're suggesting it's impossible for dog owners to strive in finding that 5%, you're missing the point of this thread. 

This thread isn't about all the good dogs born in this world or where they come from (my dog came from a puppy mill but I made good decisions in finding her), it's about good decisions, and choices/challenges owners will face when buying a dog.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If you accept my premise, yes. Again, if you make good decisions, you're not likely to deal with a breeder who doesn't health, temperament, and genetic test.
> 
> If you're suggesting it's impossible for dog owners to strive in finding that 5%, you're missing the point of this thread.
> 
> This thread isn't about all the good dogs born in this world, it's about good decisions, and the better odds one will find in making good decisions.


I am not suggesting it's impossible for dog owners to strive in finding that 5%, you're missing the point of this thread. I can strive to become and olympic athlete. But it's not the point of my post.

All reasonable people make what they believe are good decisions based on their world view, their temperament, their understanding of the subject, etc.
The result of these decisions are often heavily influence by circumstances, chance, environment, etc. The ethics of dog ownership is enormously complicated and beyond complete understanding by me, you, or anyone on this forum.

Question for you - 
If you were magically able to influence every potential dog owner to make the decisions you would have made for them, what would be the state of dog ownership and dog welfare be in 10 years?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

tcasby said:


> you're missing the point of this thread.


Not likely, since I started the thread. 



> The result of these decisions are often heavily influence by circumstances, chance, environment, etc.


Including ignorance. The point of this thread is expose the ignorance and speak on the choices dog owners *do* have before buying a dog. 



> The ethics of dog ownership is enormously complicated and beyond complete understanding by me, you, or anyone on this forum.


This thread isn't about the ethics of dog ownership. If you want to keep your dog outdoors when I think it should be kept in a crate, that's a separate issue, and not the topic of this thread.

If a customer has a choice between choosing a dog who's parent dogs are PRA tested, and one who's not, is there a debate? If dog ownership is really about what the dog gives back to the owner, wouldn't it be prudent that you buy a dog who can give back with some insurance that he will remain healthy in doing so? This is the point of this thread. 



> If you were magically able to influence every dog owner and potential dog owner to make the decisions you would have made for them, what would be the state of dog ownership and dog welfare be in 10 years?


What's the point of your question, and how does it relate to the topic at hand? I'm finding this question silly. It's like asking someone what is utopia. Where does one begin explaining that?


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

I would like to add a couple of points about rescued/rehomed dogs. 

My search for the third Malamute in my life was full of dissapointment and aggrevation. Over the course of six weeks, we visited shelters, and contacted rescue groups specializing in the breed. The rescue was an awful, and I hope isolated experience. I would have understood if they had said none of their dogs currently for adoption match my needs, but their stance was Malamutes CANNOT live with cats, and males don't get along with other working breed males. Say what? I knew we would end up with a Saint as well, and through all of our encounters this was mentioned. So without properly doing research, we set out and started meeting dogs listed on craigslist. When the wife went to meet Sioux for the first time, he was chained to a kitchen counter, in a house with a yard the size of a garage, couch parts everywhere, and free please take him away. He had been sheltered once and adopted once before returning a third time to that house. So she brought him home. Thankfully at ten months he looked spot on for the breed, and his temperment was classic sled dog. Two weeks later when we met Bubba we were ready. There had been several dogs with hip problems that were obvious but not mentioned, and dogs that would cower when touched. After three dogs obtained through internet listings I have a somewhat partial list of things I do. This is also from someone who had dogs and didn't need to assess my motives as unrealistic. In no particular order:

1. *Know how to read a pedigree.* 
I was a bit discriminating in this because I wanted pure bred dogs. Orthopedic certificates are listed there as well.

2. *Talk and interview the owner before paying much attention to the dog.* 
These people probably won't let you rummage around the whole house, but be observant. A dog in a home that looks like an Ethan Allen catalogue is probably not in the right place. Conversely a dog in a frat type environment with pizza boxes, beer cans, and clothes strewn about is probably not in the right place either.

3. *Go to shelters, and ask local vets about hip problems and how they assess them.*
This part is a little heart wrenching, but if you get a chance to walk with a few dogs that have been diagnosed with issues, you will have an idea what to look for in gait and endurance.

4. *Know the breed standard.* (If that's what you're after)
When researching the breed, many common problems are listed ad naseum.

5. *Take the dog for a walk.* 
By that I mean a REAL walk, like 30-45 minutes minimum. A dog that is eager, excited, and not looking/pulling back is what I'm looking for. To me it signals they don't walk him, and the relationship will build quickly. 

5a. *Take a break alone with the dog in a spot away from the immediate neighborhood.*
By this point I'm assuming the dog is not overly aggressive, or you would be on your way to the next one. This is where the dog interview comes in. Testing how sensitive he is to petting, grabbing, and grooming. I inspect the ears, feel the feet, lift the jowels, rub the hips and stomach, things that will be common place.

6. *Learn the concepts and principles of operant conditioning, and classical conditioning.*
I had no clue at the time that I was desensitizing my dogs, and changing their conditioned response. Food guarding was something they all did, and as I was weening them off their previous diet, I would add the new stuff by hand while they were eating. By the time they were on the new diet, feeding aggression had ceased. Now after a Jean Donaldson book, I realize what was going on. Thank doG I ended up doing it correctly, I just wish I had known it at the time. These two basics of behavior are a must know in my opinion.

7. *Negotiate.* (If you're the type that doesn't mind getting a little antagonistic)
Sioux was free, Bubba was $150 down to $50, and Coco was $150 down to $50. I don't accept the charging of a rehoming fee as a likely path to a good home. Mainly because I spend too much on the dogs as it is. I also carried proof of the thousands spent the last year of Lakota's life. Even if they have vet records and a recent exam, I will still take the dog to my vet for a complete once over and introduction. Things like changing ownership info with the microchip company, additional vaccinations, heartgard, double checking cysts to know they are sebacious, all cost money that I don't think should go to the previous owner. I offered to send copies of receipts as proof of my commitment, and no one wanted them, go figure.

8. *Find out if any training had been done, and if so, with whom?*
Coco had been to a trainer that said she shouldn't be in a muli-dog house. I took Sioux with us because this guy just couldn't find someone he would let her go to. They were introduced, no problems, he came to OUR house, met the rest of the pack, and left her here. Upon further internet research, I found this trainer's name in a few forums that consistently rated him negatively. Grain of salt.

9. *Understand that complete integration will take time.*
As I've mentioned in a few other threads, I lost two couches, a chair, blankets, area rugs, and countless times the trash was scattered about the house. I had these guys over a year before I started actually training them. Now I have a pack of dogs that are nearly ready for a Canine Good Citizen test. The house is complete. 

Just a few things to consider, and I'm sure there's a lot more to have in mind when finding your dog. I feel that these few items will help in identifying a "good" dog (sans the negotiating of course). Because, obviously these folks didn't ask the proper questions the first time, and asking them those questions is pointless. Although I was told hundreds of times to get rid of Sioux, those same people now come around saying "He's so well behaved! This is the couch dog? I would've taken him to the pound and never seen how good he could've been." 

Final thought: PATIENCE. That's my magic ingredient.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I am not sure if anyone will agree with me on this, but I can tell you how I went about the 'getting the dog' thing. I have had a few dogs and only one that did not work out.. and that was NOT because he was a bad dog, but because he was allergic to Cows (likely cow Poop was the culprit) and I had a Dairy Farm....

First of all, except for the last two dogs, all the dogs chose ME and were not really 'sought.' My dogs, except for the last two, were rescues. There was Max. Husky/shepherd mix. Friend was going to take him and the dog would have been relegated to a life on a chain out back and he was just too bright eyed for that. He came home with me. Great dog on the farm, in the car and at home!

Sheba was on a neighbor's farm. She had been dropped off, pregnant. Had her puppies and they did not feed her. She hunted and killed woodchi=ucks, rabbits and rats to feed here puppies. They gave away her puppies and they were going to take Sheba to the pound.. she was a black lab mix of some kind who just took to me, so she came home with me and now I had Sheba and Max. Of course, Sheba was spayed and brought UTD on shots.. you know..that whole routine.

I had these two REALLY GOOD dogs for years. Time was not an issue, since I was a dairy farmer. They came with me wherever I went from field to barn. 

Then there was George. He was on Death Row at the pound. I took him home and trained him.. had him vaccinated/neutered.. all of that. He was 5 months old when I got him. He was such a NICE dog... but man oh man was he ever allergic to cow poop. He was well trained and I used a crate.. but his allergies just could not be handled by him or by me. I ended up taking him back to the shelter and he was adopted out 3 more times and each time he went right THROUGH a glass window or door when left in the house.. and eventually George ran out of chances.. All because no one wanted to be "cruel" and use a crate. I will always feel very badly about George even tho, to this day, I know he just would have been miserable sick ALL the time if he had stayed with me. The shelter has, BTW, a requirement that if a pet doesn't work out that you return that pet to them (better than most BYB's!). 

Someone who was doing designer breeding (Golden/Lab cross) could not sell the pups so gave me one (this was the days before the designer breed thing so he essentially made mutts). Rass was just a GREAT dog. Went every where with me including when I went out on the horse. Had her for years. A very sweet dog. 

Then there was Oreo. A 6 week old Puppy due to be euthanized. Long haired Heinz 57 varieties dog that picked me. She lived 15 years. Good dog. 

Next I went to a breeder and got Kazi. She was a GSD and my first GSD. I saw her out with her litter mates and she picked me. One of the best I ever had.. worked cattle for me, helped my Dad (who is hearing impaired).. a WONDERFUL dog. She would obey any command I gave her. EXCELLENTLY trained dog. In the litter she was neither the runt nore the biggest puppy and she was not the aloof puppy or the friendliest. She was calm and interested in me. Perfect. Passed on just shy of 14.

And now I have Atka. She was chosen from 3 dogs left of a litter.. and she was slated to be campaigned on the breed show circuit.. OR her sister was slated to be shown.. they could not decide. I picked Atka because she showed interest in me.. and did that counting thing that herding dogs do (or that my last dog would do). She would play with her sibs then make her rounds checking all the people and the two cats and then go back and play. Her demeaner was one of calm acceptance with interest in me. She just was the right dog and that was that. 

In the last two dogs from breeders, I knew what I wanted and that is more honed each time I do this. Neither breeder picked the dog for me and neither breeder really asked me enough questions IMO. Both breeders had a return guarantee and both insisted on the "no breeding" check box on the papers. I read the pedigree and, with Kazi, they lineage was all OFA Excellent or Very Good back a few generations. She was from parents imported directly from (then) East Germany.

Atka was a bit different. Her dam was not OFA certified but both the dam's parents were "very good" while her sire's line was impeccable. The breeder also had older siblings (full) of Ataka and a full sister to Atka's mother (Atka's Mother had to be PTS due to Breat Cancer that manifested itself after she was pregnant). 

She is working out to be a VERY GOOD DOG. Very physically sound and mentally soild. High bite threshold, no agressiveness, and she LIKES to HERD, like my last dog!

Before getting my second GSD I did research Border Collies. I decided against the breed due to their extremely high drive and, since I am no longer on the farm and have to work M-F I was afraid a BC would be too high drive. Well, Atka is higher drive than Kazi and, from what I have learned, every bit as high drive as a BC. 

The main thing in getting a dog is that I know what I want. I really do. I also know how much time I have (more than many as I am single and have no children). I thought about this for a year, with the 6 months prior to the actual getting of the dog being intense. I researched the BC breed extensively.. talked with other BC people and those who compete these dogs in stuff like herding and agility. 

I wanted a dog that could tolerate going hiking with me, going for short runs with my bike, was good to train, friendly, smart, good with the cats and who would give it up and lie down when *I* ran out of gas! I got all of that except for the last.. and that has worked out OK. She doesn't allow me to be a slacker and boy am I FIT! LOL

I put up facilities (fenced area out back which gets used infrequently), got crates, bowls, leads etc. I thought I might be interested in Agility so went to a couple of trials (and I am interested) and thought about the BC.. but then ended up with a GSD again. 

So, everything said above is so good. thinking to yourself, _why am i getting a dog_ is just so important to do. Beyond that, thinking, _do I have the time and patience for a dog and its training_ is just as important. 

A dog is, typically, a 12-15 year committment. It is so important to realize this and really THINK about it. 

TY CSP for posting this thread. I had thought of doing something similar but you beat me to it and, from the looks of it, put it out there better than I would have anyhow.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

For those of you who read Marley and Me - Was Marley a good dog?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

tcasby said:


> For those of you who read Marley and Me - Was Marley a good dog?


If you're accepting my premise, Marley was not a good dog because his owners did not make good choices. His owners would not have gone through all the trouble that led them to call him the "worse dog ever", had they made better choices. This is the point of the thread tcasby. What the dog ends up being, is another story and responsibility, one not being discussed in this thread.

Not many people know some breeders guarantee their pups will be potty trained before entering their home. Not many people know some breeders require training, and from specific schools. Had Marley's owners not bought Marley from a BYB, they would have some insurances that would prevent Marley from being labeled "worst dog ever".


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Indeed Curb... This thread is a thinker. I don't think my post was very helpful to your overall objective, but trying to get that frame of mind on such an emotional and subjective topic is quite difficult. Keep on keeping us in line.
That guy was on Dog Wisperer ya know? With another "bad dog"...


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> If you're accepting my premise, Marley was not a good dog because his owners did not make good choices. His owners would not have gone through all the trouble that led them to call him the "worse dog ever", had they made better choices. This is the point of the thread tcasby. What the dog ends up being, is another story and responsibility, one not being discussed in this thread.
> 
> Not many people know some breeders guarantee their pups will be potty trained before entering their home. Not many people know some breeders require training, and from specific schools. Had Marley's owners not bought Marley from a BYB, they would have some insurances that would prevent Marley from being labeled "worst dog ever".


Would the authors have traded their life with Marley for the perfectly bred lab they have now? The one featured on the Dog Whisperer because it was killing chickens?


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> So I ask you then_, where do good dogs come from_


_

Havnt been through this whole thread curb so i cant comment too much(i will read all of it soon though )

IMO,this question im responding from is simple,Good dogs come from good people(breeder wise)_


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

tcasby said:


> Would the authors have traded their life with Marley for the perfectly bred lab they have now? The one featured on the Dog Whisperer because it was killing chickens?


Probably not. But if you've ever sat at the surrender desk at your local shelter, you'd know many people regret the choices they make. There's a difference between ownership, which comes with its own responsibility and rewards, and pre-purchase choices, which has a different set of responsibility and rewards. The later is what we're focusing on here. If you don't understand there is a difference between the two, and that we're not talking about post-purchase responsibility, you clearly don't understand what this thread is about, and I kindly ask that you not take it off-topic.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> ..pre-purchase choices, which has a different set of responsibility and rewards. The later is what we're focusing on here.


Pre purchase thinking is so important.. the Knee Jerk reaction of seeing a puppy and bying it because it was "so cute" is the reason why, with their owners in tears, so many dogs end up with surrender papers at the shelter. 

It is also the reason why so many BYB's are in business and STILL using those puppy sales to pay for their house additions. 

FWIW one of the BC people told me I would likely be a great BC owner because I really thought about what one of these dogs entailed BEFORE getting one. 

I will get a BC for my second dog.. when I have thoroughy thought thru this and if I figure out the whole Second Dog thing (financially as well as work load).


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> So I ask you then_, where do good dogs come from_? What do I need to do as a buyer, adopter, or foster to find a good dog? Where should I start? What do I need to know? What questions should I ask? What red flags should I look for?


I apologize for wasting space, after re-reading and re-reading your original post, I understand maybe slightly better... 

First I would say you need to know the worst can possibly happen.









... and, are you prepared to replace the couch, get a new transmission in the just broken car, have the obstuction in the dog's digestive system surgically removed, go through recovery with the dog, get up early to walk the healthy dog, all at once while continuing a typical weekly shcedule? It's not as far off as it sounds. I had the entire pack go through different injuries in the span of six weeks, plus nearly $600 in heating bill because of leaky doors. Ugh, we are all still here and recently all healthy.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

harrise said:


> I apologize for wasting space, after re-reading and re-reading your original post, I understand maybe slightly better...


I actually thought your first post had many valid points, especially in terms of being prepared in evaluating an adult dog or shelter dog.

And certainly, preparing for the things that make come with dog ownership is necessary too. It goes back to the question, should I own a dog? If one can't handle a dog who may eat your couch, perhaps a dog is not what you really want.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

On the original quote... EB White had collies at the height of their popularity. Before the heritability of CEA was known, I subject that finding a healthy collie WAS pretty much a crap shoot. 

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet, but had to say that first.


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## tcasby (Apr 30, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Probably not. But if you've ever sat at the surrender desk at your local shelter, you'd know many people regret the choices they make. There's a difference between ownership, which comes with its own responsibility and rewards, and pre-purchase choices, which has a different set of responsibility and rewards. The later is what we're focusing on here. If you don't understand there is a difference between the two, and that we're not talking about post-purchase responsibility, you clearly don't understand what this thread is about, and I kindly ask that you not take it off-topic.


Sorry, I think we just have different concepts of "goodness". I believe mine coincides more with Mr. Whites. One of the reasons I like Doodles so much is there natural tendency towards my idea of "goodness".
What you are referring to I would call "soundness". I agree well bred dogs more more likely to be sound physically and mentally.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> Pre purchase thinking is so important.. the Knee Jerk reaction of seeing a puppy and bying it because it was "so cute" is the reason why, with their owners in tears, so many dogs end up with surrender papers at the shelter.
> 
> It is also the reason why so many BYB's are in business and STILL using those puppy sales to pay for their house additions.
> 
> ...



Agree totally,however depending on how you "measure" a BYB,ive known some that have rehomed their pups responsibly and kept track on their dogs offspring continuesly and i have also known people that have phurchased KC registered dogs in a real bad state.

In saying this i dont agree with BYB.


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## 4dogs3cats (Dec 21, 2007)

This is a great thread Curb.

I feel a lot has been said so far. I know I have made many bad choices and have got dogs from bad places. I love them despite their issues, but i do regret getting Chance. He clearly did not come from a good place, and that could be the cause of a lot of his problems today.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Ditto jen,Blake didnt come from a good place either BUT if he was in other hands he wouldnt be the dog he is today.

Comes back down to the ownership,dont give up on chance.

Appologies for going off thread.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> "A really companionable and indespensible dog is an accident of nature... You can't get it by breeding for it, and you can't buy it with money. It just happens." -- E.B. White
> 
> Mr. White's opinion was expressed in 1940...I've noticed some of you have the same opinion. With Mr. White's opinion in mind, however, it's tempting to oppose it by saying good dogs come from good breeders, or that good dogs come from good parent dogs...especially with the technology and understanding available to us today. However, I have a different proposition for you...good dogs come from your own decisions. If you can accept this premise...you're on your own when you set out to find a good dog, you must be clear about what you're looking for, and you must do your homework...you'll accept my proposition.
> 
> ...


That is a very inaccurate, especially with all that we do understand today. We know a lot more then what we did then. What is sad though is that "problem dogs" seem to be increasing despite all the knowledge and information out there. 

The technology has been an advancement for breeders striving to produce good dogs. With new test for diseases, recording/sharing data, and even more knowledge on canine genetics including more in depth on individual breeds. 

Good dogs simply do come from good breeders/parents. There are always "flukes" poor quality parents produce a good dog, this is because of some of the good genetics they are carrying - throwbacks. On the other hand mediocre parents can produce poor quality pups, worse then themselves for the same reason. A lot of people breeding their pets want to produce "nice" pups and often seek to reproduce their own dog. This usually doesn't work out as planned, they don't know about their dogs pedigrees, genetics or bloodlines and its a total crap shoot. Even in well planned breedings you could still get a surprise. We can't precisely control what genes each pup inherits. So think of the greater risk from a bad breeder.

I saw where it was mentioned "It's all in how you raise them" thats a big myth with Pit Bulls people like to throw around. Every dog doesn't have what it takes to be a good dog. Starting with a dog of sound temperament is your best bet. Even people with dedication who will truly be responsible with their dog can struggle when buying a dog with a bad temperament, whether it be aggressive or shy. Some dogs are hopeless, they can't simply be trained nor conditioned out of these problems. These "hopeless" dogs are fewer (as many shy or even aggressive dogs can be trained to make them fairly good dogs) but exist due to genetic defects. 

I think that going to a breeder of sound dogs you have a very high chance of getting a good dog. The rest is up to you once you get the dog (although a good breeder will offer help). If you start with a bad dog you can be setting yourself up for failure. If you know what you want, as mentioned, that helps a lot, it gives you a starting point, what breed, what bloodline and then what breeder. You have to know your criteria for it to be filled.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Spicy1_VV said:


> That is a very inaccurate, especially with all that we do understand today. We know a lot more then what we did then. What is sad though is that "problem dogs" seem to be increasing despite all the knowledge and information out there.


I'm not sure what you're calling inaccurate. Mr. White's statement? Or my premise?



Spicy1_VV said:


> Good dogs simply do come from good breeders/parents.


The question is what choices would a prospective buyer have in deciphering good parent dogs. Of course, if you're buying a dog from a breeder, the breeder IS everything. But, as a consumer, my choices should lead me to that breeder. So how do I get there. That's the question.

If I were to buy a pit bull, what does the breeder do, that identifies to me, that he or she is a great breeder over someone else? What choices should I make in finding a great pit bull?


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## kims_ark (Feb 29, 2008)

Ok I'm probably going to get some flack for what I'm about to say but here goes anyway. 

First let me start by saying that here in New England the spay/neuter program has been so successful that the shelters are almost empty (at any given time there are maybe 5 - 10 dogs available) and even mutts come with a price tag. If you're looking for a purebred dog the price tag is even higher than in other areas of the country. I am also a lover of mutts and have never owned a purebred dog, nor do I have the desire to. More often than not I will go to a shelter before looking for a puppy. In this area the shelters are charging anywhere from $125 and as high as $400 to adopt a dog. We have 2 rescues and in the past 11 years have also had 2 shelter dogs but 3 of our dogs we brought home as puppies.

The best dog we have had came from a litter of puppies of Shep/Golden Lab mixes that were being given away. When we went to look at the litter we spent a long time there. We spent time with the mother of the pups and I walked around and handled all the puppies that were still available. It was a warm day and they were all out in the yard playing. I sat on the ground and played with them as well. The one puppy that stayed with me and kept nibbling at my shoe laces was the one we ended up bringing home. He picked me out. 

Tucker turned out to be the house mother of everybody and everything under this roof. He was gentle and loving. There wasn't an aggressive bone in his body and through his life I don't think he hurt a flea. He was obedient and trustworthy as well. I never heard a growl come out of him. Unfortunately we lost him a little over a month ago at the age of 10 1/2 years old to cancer. He was a once in a lifetime dog.

Of course we asked all the standard questions about his parents, their temperment, health and so forth before going to see the puppies. I was also familiar with both breeds as we always had dogs in the house as a kid.

I think the biggest mistake people (in general) make when picking out a puppy, whether it's a purebred dog or a mutt, is that they don't take into consideration what the breed requires. Face it if you're a couch potato and you want a Jack Russell and don't have any outlet for the energy these dogs have then it's not going to be a good match. Just like if you are someone who is really active and enjoys hiking a chihuahua would probably not be a good choice unless you plan on leaving it home or carrying it.

Another mistake is that people want a dog to have a dog and don't want to put the time or energy it takes into training. Today many people are too busy to spend time with their kids, never mind training a dog. They get a dog for their kids to play with and then expect it to magically turn into Lassie on it's own. Well, I think everyone here knows that it won't happen.

I know for a fact that two of our dogs are from puppy mills and were found at shelters. So the question of parentage goes out the window with that. One of them spent the first year of his life in a cage with minimal human contact. The other was picked up as a stray at the age of 6 months. I don't think I need to tell everyone that they came with a long list of issues and it took a long time to reverse the damage that had been done by other people. But they have turned out to be awesome dogs.

So where do good dogs come from?

Well, other than taking parantage and breed into consideration I think the individual personality of the dog has to be considered as well. A dog that tends to be shy is not going to become the life of the party once it's home.

You have to be willing to spend time with the dog or puppy before bringing it home. Take it for a walk, play with it, etc. If you don't like what you see when you're "just looking" then you're probably not going to like it at home either.

You have to make a commitment to the dog as if you were bringing home a child. Make sure it gets the right food, medical care, proper exercise, and be willing to spend the time, and if necessary, money required to train it.

Don't expect a dog to be something it's not. If you're looking for a lap dog then a breed that's known for it's independence would not be a good choice.
You have to be willing to accept the good and the bad of the breed as well. If you don't like what may be considered the "bad" aspects of the breed then you may want to reconsider your choice.

Sometimes you have to be willing to let the dog pick you out. You may not get the dog that's the best looking and it may not fetch the way you want it to, but in the end it will turn out to be your best friend. I've never gone wrong with letting the dog pick me out.

Most of all you have to have a lot of patience.

Yes, in cases like Tucker the "perfect" dog for you may just be born but in other cases it takes a lot of time and work on the part of the human. Many people don't understand that and I think that's the main reason why so many dogs end up homeless and with issues.

As someone who has a habit of taking on the "less than desirable" and overlooked dogs from the shelters -- the ones with the long list of issues, I guess my perspective is a bit different. But to me these are the important factors I consider when looking for a dog. In my mind even "bad" dogs can turn out to be awesome dogs.

Oh and I agree that Brian Killcommon's book is awesome and a good place to start (even though I don't agree with everything he says). I consider it a must read for anyone even considering getting a dog.

Kim


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I'm not sure what you're calling inaccurate. Mr. White's statement? Or my premise?


His



> The question is what choices would a prospective buyer have in deciphering good parent dogs. Of course, if you're buying a dog from a breeder, the breeder IS everything. But, as a consumer, my choices should lead me to that breeder. So how do I get there. That's the question.
> 
> If I were to buy a pit bull, what does the breeder do, that identifies to me, that he or she is a great breeder over someone else? What choices should I make in finding a great pit bull?


I somewhat understand the question, really I do but its kind of hard to answer. If that even makes sense. I've never really been in that position myself. I'd say that what makes a good breeder is similar from breed to breed with some differences in dos and don'ts. No matter if its a Pit Bull or whatever. 

Perhaps my answer was too simple? Know what you want, know the breed, bloodlines and pedigrees. 

If you don't know what you want then you can't know if a certain breeder meets your criteria and if their dogs would be right for you. 
Know what size you want, activity level, the drives you want/can handle, what you expect from the breeder like guarantees and things like that, think about what traits that you'll desire in your new pup. Of course the breeder should be just as willing to assist with information about their dogs, its open communication you can ask them questions and they will probably have questions for you. Be weary of those who seem to only say what you want to hear and talk like a cars salesman. Now that doesn't mean if they actually have what you want, you can obviously tell the difference. Those who make verbal guarantees on everything and anything, hyping their dogs up to be the best in the world. Its usually a sales pitch. 

Know the breed. If you don't again how can you know that the breeder is breeding correctly and that this would be a good breed and a specific good pup for you? You need to know the general temperament, pros and cons as far as breed traits, exercise needs, grooming needs, correct temperament and things of this nature. This way you will be able to recognize if a breeder is breeding good dogs or not, are they up to standards or not. 

Learning about the traits of specific bloodlines which might have differences in some of the areas, some traits might be stronger, specifically what you are looking for, some might have a health problems more commonly seen in that line so it would be something you'd either want to steer clear of or make sure it isn't prevalent in this particular breeders program. Do you want a show dog, weight pull dog, hunting dog, companion dog? This will again lead you to certain bloodlines which will then help you then find a breeder who has those and yet again narrow it down to a breeder who meets your standards. If you just want a pet you probably don't want a line of dogs that are extreme working dogs depending on the situation. Once you find lines that have traits you like you can start looking at some breeders who have it. Meet their dogs, talk to other people to get feedback on them, talk with them about their dogs to make sure its what you want. 

Knowing the dogs in the pedigree and knowing how to read a pedigree will certainly help. Breeders are usually willing to help explain some of the things and provide information about the specific dogs but you should also gain your own knowledge. As much as possible so you know what you're looking at and will also know if they really know what they are talking about. If the pedigree is crap the dog will likely be crap too, if the pedigree is good the dog will likely be good. 

Have a list of whats important to you in a future pup. This way you will know what to ask the breeder. To locate a breeder you could join a breed club or go to shows, its a good place to start. Because you can talk to breeders and actually meet the dogs and even see them in action. You can see how social they are outside of their home environment where you might see them if going to visit the kennel, you can see how different breeders dogs compare to each other. I'd also say their own dogs health. If the breeder cares about their dogs then they wouldn't be ill, even small things like bad coat might be a sign they are not taking good care of the dog or the dog could even have a possible skin/coat condition so you'd want to stay away. Also club members who are knowledgeable on the breed could help you find a couple good breeders, they can steer you in the right direction to make sure you get a quality pup. 

Making these decisions will help you find a good breeder and hopefully the right breeder.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Wonderful topic, Curb, and sure to educate some, give food for thought with others. 

There are so many things to factor in and decide prior to bringing a dog home.

One of my two Standard Poodles is a rehome/rescue. The people who alerted me to his plight also knew his breeder (& a few had some of her dogs), so I was able to find out everything I needed to know (his pedigree & about his breeder) prior to making the decision to take him home. I had a 16 month old female Standard at home (whom I'd gotten from a breeder as a 9 wk. old puppy). This rescue was also 16 months old, and intact. Maddy was still intact, as she wasn't due to be spayed for another 3-4 months.

Beau had *dog-to-dog aggression issues*, serious since I already had a dog at home. A lesser risk since she was the opposite sex, but, still a risk. I did not bring her with me to help with the decision because of our relationship with each other, and, I already knew that she would be ok with whomever I brought home, as this had been my experience with her (I fostered, and she was marvelous w/them). Based on his pedigree, and the temperaments of his parents, and the other puppies, along with knowlege of his environment with his current owner (& the handler she used to show him in the ring), I took a chance on Beau, feeling that I would be able to work with his reactivity and dog agression over time. I was also committed to doing whatever it took to manage him, while giving him a good life, should it not work out. 

Beau also had serious health problems (gastrointestinal) that, through daily journaling observations (in addition to medical tests), I determined were stress-related. He had to be hand fed up to 7 times/day for the first several months, in order to keep his food down, and prevent the gagging and vomiting. 

He was also a window terrorist; barking, snarling, and foaming at the mouth, his lunges at the window a serious health risk, because I feared he'd crash through! 

I'm happy to say that Beau is a wonderful addition to the family, who loves his Maddy, worships the ground I walk on D), and has been kind and sensitive to the numerous foster dogs and cats who have come and gone over the past 5 years he's been with us. He's no longer a window terrorist, and is simply a healthy, happy, well-adjusted dog!

A "bad" dog turned "good." How/Why? I took a calculated risk, factoring in genetics and history, and putting in the time and effort it took to desensitize and counter condition his "problems." It paid off.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Poodleholic, this brings up a good point I think is worth considering, and perhaps you or someone else may have some feedback in where to make this choice....

Let's say you were to take on a dog with known problems, be it aggression, fear, or compulsions. Would it be prudent to have a certified trainer lined up when assessing the dog, and have that person come along to meet the dog?

When does your experience make it plausible to assess the dog alone? 

I can't imagine the average dog owner knows what desensitization or counter conditioning is, or even how to apply it in the real world, so what should an owner know before taking on a dog like Beau? Including plan B options?

Spicy, I think it's a very good point to think ahead, to know what you want the dog to be. He may never turn out that way, but I think its very important to have this discussion with the breeder, if that's the route you're choosing. This conversation alone could save an owner a lot of grief, I agree.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> Poodleholic, this brings up a good point I think is worth considering, and perhaps you or someone else may have some feedback in where to make this choice....
> 
> Let's say you were to take on a dog with known problems, be it aggression, fear, or compulsions. Would it be prudent to have a certified trainer lined up when assessing the dog, and have that person come along to meet the dog?


Yes, it would be prudent. However, for myself, I'd have to know of, and feel confident that this certified trainer had the knowlege, skills, and experience to assess behaviorial issues to begin with. There are many good _trainers_ who do well with the average dog, but, who know jack sh** about behavioral problems, or what to do in an effort to overcome them. 



> When does your experience make it plausible to assess the dog alone?


Good question. I, personally, have no formal training in dog training or behavior. I shunned obedience classes with my dogs because the class I did attend (or simply observed to see if I wanted to enroll) horrified me. The choke chain collar was used, and the "hang 'em up" method of teaching dogs made no sense to me. I was a good observer, and have honed this skill over the years. I also have good intuition. The two give me what I need to know when it comes to animals (and people). So far (over a span of 55 yrs. and numerous dogs), I've been had success with my dogs, and they've been great companions who defer to my wishes. With Beau, I first observed him for a short time, and then simply knelt down (a short distance from him), and looked at him eye-to-eye. He came to me, and literally collapsed against my chest, letting out a big sigh. It was a done deal.



> I can't imagine the average dog owner knows what desensitization or counter conditioning is, or even how to apply it in the real world, so what should an owner know before taking on a dog like Beau? Including plan B options?


I would have to agree! I only know because I've done a lot of reading and watching DVDs over the past 6 yrs. (bless you, Turrid Rugaas, for your wisdom concerning aggressive dogs!). Even before I knew what desensitization and counter conditioning was, I somehow had the ability to figure out what to do. I can't explain it, but there is something about me that animals trust, and I am somehow able to connect, and communicate with them. The dogs who have come into my life have taught me much over the years. 

*The most important thing* a person should know prior to taking on a dog like Beau is whether or not they are ready, willing, and able to deal with serious behavioral issues, and have the time, patience, effort, and energy that goes with it. Some key points;

I had to keep Maddy safe at all times. So, I needed a plan, and any equipment to implement that.

I wrote out a training plan, and the steps to achieve each goal. 

I kept a daily journal to record observations, and note progress, or lack of it. It helped me be more accurate in my assessment of how things were going, since I was working alone, without benefit of professional (or any other kind of) help. 

If known, get in touch with the breeder. I got in touch with Beau's breeder, who was a wealth of information, however, I also spoke with others, who would/could provide me with, perhaps, a more objective viewpoint of the dog himself, of her foundation bitch (Beau's dam), and of the sire, as well as others in the pedigree. I also got information on Beau's littermates. 

I trusted Maddy's judgement: There were times she would not go outside with Beau. I quickly learned to trust her judgement - after she was forced to leap onto the picnic table to get away from him (and then told him off in no uncertain terms)! He hadn't hurt her, but he was being a bully, and too rough. Maddy helped Beau a great deal, and she also helped me to help Beau.

PLAN B: Keep the dog and manage him, or, return to the breeder, if possible. (BTW, Beau's breeder offered to take him, once she learned of his plight, and that I had taken him on.) 

KNOW that, despite all efforts, the dog may well just have to be managed. I was willing to do that, which meant I had to provide for all of Beau's needs without taking him out and about in the community, where he'd meet other dogs and react. He was far stronger than I, so I worried about him getting loose on me, and I didn't want him going into that adrenalin rush, because it affected his health in addition to making him worse the next time. As reactive as Beau was (would gag and vomit for days), it also (possibly) increased the risk of bloat. A lot of our walks (with and w/out Maddy) took place at 3:00am, when we were unlikely to come upon another dog. If I hadn't been able to work through Beau's problems, we would be taking our walks in the middle of the night for the duration.


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## harrise (Jan 9, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> I kept a daily journal to record observations, and note progress, or lack of it. It helped me be more accurate in my assessment of how things were going, since I was working alone, without benefit of professional (or any other kind of) help.


Great point there poodle, having the self discipline to dutifully keep accurate records of the moment is an absolute must, if you're doing things yourself. Coco's former owner had been convinced by three trainers that she was dog-dog aggressive, and that's that. After a "proper" introduction to Sioux, she came home. Of course she still had some flare ups, but it was the ability to observe and IMMEDIATELY note what happened that got us through it. By doing this I was able to move on from "that came out of nowhere!", to redirecting her attention with a simple snap when her eyes dart. As far as having a trainer lined up, I would say yes because most people aren't going to have those observation skills honed in to the dog on the first day.

I would also add a personal trick I use on myself when I can't decide if I'm telling me the truth. Flip a coin. You will know by your reaction to the outcome what the truth is inside yourself.


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

LaRositaMonita said:


> ...though it might be valid to also wonder if our good dog isn't going to actually find us.


Mine found me


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

First let me say, I have enjoyed reading this thread. I must however, be the luckiest person to walk the face of this Earth when it comes to "picking dogs" I have never had a BAD DOG. At least not as far as I have been concerned. I have rescued all but one from all different backgrounds and all different ages. Maybe it is easy for me because I don't have any preconceived notions as to what is a good dog or maybe I am just a simple, easy to please person. I have always been of the idea that you get out of it what you put into it. I have seen so many dogs sitting in people's backyards tied to trees that I just knew could be amazing dogs if they had lucked out to the point of getting someone that cared enough about them to spend time training them. With the possible exception of a dog with mental health issues due to hormone imbalances (which can usually be treated) or brain tumor or something. I believe that there are no bad dogs. Yes, some are easier to train then others, some are more willing to work then others but for the most part, spend the time with them and reap the benefits. For me, I feel that dogs that don't go as far in training as others are my failures. I have not found the key to unlock their gifts. I have been lazy with dogs and then thought, Hm, this dog is kind of dumb, he just doesn't get it. Truth is, I have not made the efforts necessary to click with that individual dog. Maybe I would be fussier if I were looking for a dog that was going to work a farm with me, or I was training a dog in personal protection or something. The average person looking for an excellent pet only need look for a dog that they "click" with. IMO Everything else will depend on what they put into the dog. Obviously if my goals are to show in conformation then I don't begin my search for my dog at the local shelter. I also don't think if I am looking for a dog that will just lay on the couch next to me and go for a daily walk that I need to act as though it is rocket science in finding the right dog for me. I believe the secret is in being honest with ones self about what they are willing to offer the dog and what they can tolerate in a dog. Again, maybe my thought process in this is too simplistic but I can honestly say I have never owned a bad dog and many of them were just dumped off at my house with no forethought from me. I guess my only reason for considering the search for the perfect breeder was a hope for a dog with better health. Up until this past year I have been lucky with that as well with all of my dogs living to old age and some even making it to plain old ancient. LOL So far, I cannot say I love this new dog more then any of the others. He is actually a bit boring. Maybe I need more of a challenge or something. To date, the dump off method of picking dogs or NOT picking them has worked for me.


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