# Compare Contrast



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I just thought I'd share an interesting compare/contrast of Mirada and one of her sisters!

Mirada (left) and Amber at 8 weeks:









Mirada (left) and Amber at 12 weeks:









Please do not be overly alarmed at Amber's pasterns. They WILL come back up (you'll notice that 'Rada went down as well, just not as badly). It happens with large boned puppies a lot.

You can see that Mirada looks relatively the same, but Amber looks COMPLETELY different (better actually)!


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Mirada is a big girl in comparison to her sister!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yup! In dogs (and some of the terminology will vary breed to breed) all that body Mirada has we call substance (not trying to talk down, btw, I just don't know who knows what each thing means ).

Her sister doesn't have near the substance she does, but she'll have an elegance that Mirada will lack.

Something I found to be very surprising (in a good way) is that even though Amber is way down on her pasterns, she has maintained great feet. They are better than Mirada's. Look at the difference between Mirada's rear feet, and Amber's. And look at the front feet. Amber is much tighter.

Both bitches have very nice solid toplines, but the fact that Amber is so long and mainitains that topline is excellent. The hope is that she'll get some more leg under her (especally after those pasterns come back up) and balance out the length she's got.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Educate me! LOL What is a pastern? I have no knowledge of showing animals--and limited on their physiology...


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The pastern is basically a dog's wrist  So that bent section between their paw and their leg ^_^

The hock is the long section between the foot and the thigh (sometimes called a rear pastern, or even considered as the "ankle").


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

Now I see what you are talking about...and I can see the difference in the two dogs and the pictures.

Thanks for educating me...I guess I could have googled it, but I would rather ask the folks here!  LOL


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I'll take your word for it she'll come back up on her pasterns, but for now it looks WEIRD. 

Part of the difference in Amber's pictures is that the first picture's aspect ratio is off; it's squished horizontally.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

The first thing I thought was "what's wrong with it's legs!" 
I can't imagine them growing out of that, but thank goodness they do. That is some seriously weird angulation. 

Mirada looks great


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> That is some seriously weird angulation.


It's actually not angulation  It's softened ligaments and muscle that cause her to drop like that. I have some video of her and she's limping a bit, but she's going through a bout with pano (so her pasterns aren't killing her, it's just growing pains). Puppy food and some Vit C/Calcium supplements help firm things back up.



> Part of the difference in Amber's pictures is that the first picture's aspect ratio is off; it's squished horizontally.


Yeah, I couldn't get it to resize properly, but the second picture the ratios are correct.


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## BooLette (Jul 11, 2009)

Xeph said:


> It's actually not angulation  It's softened ligaments and muscle that cause her to drop like that. I have some video of her and she's limping a bit, but she's going through a bout with pano (so her pasterns aren't killing her, it's just growing pains). Puppy food and some Vit C/Calcium supplements help firm things back up.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I couldn't get it to resize properly, but the second picture the ratios are correct.


Is that something that only happens to GSDs or does it happen in all large breed puppies? This is really interesting to me. I love it when you talk show dog lingo! lol


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

It happens to lots of large breed dogs, but the severity is individual. I've seen Bernese and Great Danes with nasty downed pasterns, but not the same kind as what is seen here. I've never seen a Newfie or Saint with bad pasterns...but they just may be too sore from Pano to stand, lol.

All it takes is growing too fast/"too much" bone. In the next 3 weeks or so Amber should come back up. Mirada too.

Here's a picture pedigree for Mirada. Take a look at as many dogs as you like, and notice their pasterns. These pictures can tell you a lot about how your puppy SHOULD be turning out in various areas.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/654701.html


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

What is Pano? I read it first as Parvo, which didn't make any sense.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Pano - Panosteitis. Basically, it's growing pains  It can jump from leg to leg and there is "No source" of pain.

General perscription? Light pain killers if necessary, and crate rest.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Xeph said:


> It's actually not angulation


Sorry not angulation  I meant weird angle for the foot/ankle to be in.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I meant weird angle for the foot/ankle to be in.


It is. And it really does look painful, but it does not hurt the puppies. They just need to be monitored.

From what the pedigree says, they should come back up, and though they may be a bit long, they should be firm.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

And there, in a nutshell, is your all breed type and your specialty type, respectively. 

Xeph, I did not know you were involved with Am Bred showlines. I have TONS of Reviews sitting around that need a new home, from 1970's to the 1990's. Interested at all?

I bred and showed Am Bred dogs for a few years, alongside my working line Schutzhund dogs. Maybe I should share pictures? 

I haven't been on this board in a while, I lost my laptop to a virus and had to remember passwords. Wasn't pretty. Anyways, is Mirada yours?


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Is Amber just smaller or does she have less bone than Mirada? Sorry, I know nothing about GSD conformation!

Oh yeah and just curious, how did you or what made you choose Mirada over the other puppy/puppies?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> And there, in a nutshell, is your all breed type and your specialty type, respectively.


You said it! Although truth be told, I think Amber will lose some of that rear as she grows up (look at how she started). Yes, rear is in the pedigree, but I don't think she's gonna keep all of that.



> Xeph, I did not know you were involved with Am Bred showlines.


I'm indavertently involved in all of the lines, though AmBred showlines and working lines are my favorites.



> I have TONS of Reviews sitting around that need a new home, from 1970's to the 1990's. Interested at all?


Um, YEAH! But how much would it cost to ship 'em? xD



> Maybe I should share pictures?


Again I say, Um, YEAH!!!



> I haven't been on this board in a while, I lost my laptop to a virus and had to remember passwords. Wasn't pretty


Boooooooooooooo!!!!!!



> Anyways, is Mirada yours?


She is!! She should be arriving in a couple of weeks!



> Is Amber just smaller or does she have less bone than Mirada?


Amber has more bone (barely), but less substance (body).



> Oh yeah and just curious, how did you or what made you choose Mirada over the other puppy/puppies?


Would you like the synopsis, or the long version? xD


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## FlashTheRottwuggle (Dec 28, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Would you like the synopsis, or the long version? xD


I would be interested in the long version if you didn't mind. It fascinates me how you (purebred owners) can look at puppies and pedigrees and begin to know which one to pick.

Guess I'm a purebred mutt owner!


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Would you like the synopsis, or the long version? xD


Long version! I want to know how people pick their puppies!


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

I can look into shipping them and see how much. Some of them are the 1/2 page smaller magazines, so that might help out.

I agree, Amber is not going to keep that rear. She has length and turn of stifle right now, but that big huge hock makes me think it's just not going to come together right...topline, too. She looks at first glance to have her father's topline, but I think her croup is just too short to do that well.

I like your girl, she looks balanced, has some substance, and I like her topline better. More my type of girl.

My first champion took her majors from the specialty ring and her minor points from the all breeds. I like balance.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Xeph I hope you don't mind me posting some puppy pics related to this topic on your thread? If so tell me and I'll slap myself silly. 

This is a puppy a bred- at 12 weeks. Danu here is down in the pasterns like the above pics, and shows a LOT of rear angulation. 










Here is the same puppy bitch at 4 1/2 months old...see how her pasterns have come back up already, and her length of stifle is MUCH less.










Her father was Reggie and I can dig up pics of her mother, she was my Am/Can/Int'l Champion.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Totally don't mind other pictures! I <3 educational threads!

The head on that puppy is absolutely AMAZING, as is the bone, chest, substance....everything! Reggie seemed to be pretty prepotent for that, didn't he?

Danu has great breed type!

Also, this has nothing to do with anything, but Porter was an awesome Malinois...he was certainly an asset to the breed it seemed, and I've never heard/seen a bad word said against his handler!



> I like your girl, she looks balanced, has some substance, and I like her topline better. More my type of girl.


Thank you much! I appreciate that, and those are also the reasons I picked her. I'm not sure she's going to be a big bitch in terms of height, but I love that substance. She's linebred on Glass Palace.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

As for how I picked Mirada, whenever you pick a puppy for show it is never really a matter of who is "better" because it's all a matter of preference. Theoretically speaking you can finish ANY dog that has no disqualifying or serious faults. Why? Because judging is a matter of preference and politics.

My first pick puppy was more like Amber, but better balanced. She had a very upright, long, elegant neck. Correct? Not really (she could possibly be ewe necked), but I know what wins. Everything is checks and balances in showing and breeding, and if that bitch holds together she would present an *extremely* elegant outline, and lots of times when you show in all breeds, the judges pick the typey dog with a solid outline.

That said, I would have been compromising for front as she had a steeper upper arm (due to the placement of the neck). Her croup was also shorter, though her tailset was better. Feet were about the same as Mirada's.

Also....she was the breeder's pick puppy xD I told the breeder exactly why I had picked that puppy and she says "That's why I picked her!!!"

Why is that exciting? Because it means I'm seeing what I should be seeing.

My second pick was green girl, who was actually more my style, but will be slightly harder to finish.

She's got a lot of substance, good bone, really nice angles, and a very nice wither and topline. Her croup is better than Lexi's (the first pick), and her neck placement is correct. She has, as far as I have seen, the most chest out of everybody in the litter.

Her downfalls are her high tailset (It'll throw off her outline without corrective grooming) and her feet, which are a bit loose. She's nice and cobby, which I like, as the GSD should have short coupling (basically it means a short back), but with her length of leg, she could look too compact, and if she really IS, it could affect her gait. If she isn't, it could still affect the appearance of her gait.

Her front is very, VERY nice, but she may be just a little pushed forward in the shoulder. I think her upper arm is very nice. Fronts are notorious for being the easiest thing to lose and the hardest to get back (in all breeds).

Temperamentally speaking, while I have not gotten to experience these puppies first hand, I watched video of both Mirada and Amber, and Mirada would have been my pick anyway.

When her daughter was calling for Mirada when she got distracted, 'Rada immediately went "Oh crap! They're leaving without me!" and she ran to catch up. When Amber got distracted, she stayed distracted. She wasn't interested in catching up and had to be coerced.

Yes sir, checks and balances, checks and balances....lol


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Also....she was the breeder's pick puppy xD I told the breeder exactly why I had picked that puppy and she says "That's why I picked her!!!"
> 
> Why is that exciting? Because it means I'm seeing what I should be seeing.


That IS super exciting! Way to go!

About checks and balances, I remember when I first internalized "everything is connected." Because, well, duh, knee bone's connected to the thigh bone, but everything's connected. An off croup can throw off a dog's whole gait. I'm really more of a structure nut than standards. It's fascinating stuff.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> An off croup can throw off a dog's whole gait.


Bingo! Would you like to explain WHY that happens to the class, Raegan? xD


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Uhhhhhh, I should qualify, most of my knowledge is storing overheard conversations at dog shows and parroting it back to different people... 

My specific knowledge on croups comes from an e-mail discussion on Toller tail carriage, which is very high and curled over the back (at full alert/excitement, which is not often in the ring) but not so high and curled that it touches the back. Think backwards C, not Akita-tail. This is extra interesting in relation to GSDs who carry their tails entirely different so yes, the standards are actually related to the dog's work.  Then they start talking about how Spitz dogs typically have less angulation and some Sibe breeder who can judge good sled dogs by the way they hold their tail and I'm just hitting archive, archive, archive...

But the croup is basically the pelvis, yes? So if your hips are all goofy, your legs are going to be too, because they're connected. Like, literally. 

Please excuse the geek-out but it's _just so neat!_


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Here is Danu's sister Dharma at 10 months, on her way to finishing her championship. I don't like her front assembly as much, but she did very well in the all breed shows.

Danu, btw, showed in her Futurity, did not place, and is a beloved pet in Texas now. She just did not have enough rear to win in specialties and I did not have the money to campaign her in all breeds. Pet home always wins for me.


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## K9 Wolf (Jan 31, 2010)

Wow Xeph, we can always count on you to explain things! By the way you guys seem pretty good with GSD lineage so could I ask a favour? Remember my dog Lazy, the dog with no angulations (I'll post some pictures, yes I got good pictures- finaly), his mom was CKC (canadian kennel club) registered but when I tried to look up her lineage, I couldn't... Her registered name was- Delphi Von D'Andico - regestry number, LQ 763484. If that helps.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Xeph, thanks for taking the time to type out the explanation, it's very helpful for me as a learning tool. 

And Maliraptor, THERE you are!! Stick around this time, will ya? 

By the way, had no idea you used to breed American show lines - are you currently still breeding working lines, or Mals, (if at all)?


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Equinox said:


> And Maliraptor, THERE you are!! Stick around this time, will ya?
> 
> By the way, had no idea you used to breed American show lines - are you currently still breeding working lines, or Mals, (if at all)?


Skeletons in the closet, you know. I bred 2 American showline litters, bred one Champion. Finished one Champion prior to that. Showed a different special, nice bitch, she went on to an obedience career.

I bred 4 Working line litters- the oldest being 6 years old. One was a co-bred litter, the other 3 were under my kennel name. Four puppies have titled in schutzhund so far, including one international competitor. The youngest are just 2 years old.

I do not breed anymore, I have enough puppies out there to be responsible for.  When I had to put Torro down last year, I lost my last GSD. I will own another, from working lines, someday. But right now we just have the Malinois and the whippets (pets). I will not ever breed Malinois, there is no market beyond working homes and working homes, IMO, have the highest turnover rate. 

I will try to be around more, I did kinda space this board with the laptop demise....


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Actually, I'm happy to hear about the Am. show lines. I appreciate and respect people and breeders who make an effort to become involved in more than one specific "type" of GSD (not to mention, those are some nice looking pups you bred).

I recalled you talking about and posting pictures of some GSDs you bred, and well, let me know if you ever think of breeding again  Quick question, though, if you don't mind - do you breed mostly sport dogs, or focus more on the general working aspect of the breed? 

Oh, and believe it or not, but I think there's a breeder of Belgian Malinois here in Oregon who focuses on AKC conformation. It seems she did working/sport breeding at one point, but now aims toward breeding dogs more suited as companions and performance sport dogs. Is this common?

I understand how busy it can get, just had to bug you about it because I've always enjoyed your posts and pictures, and like hearing what you have to say.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Also, general question to anyone who can answer...

could someone explain to me correct neck placement vs. incorrect neck placement and shoulder angles? I am understanding Xeph's evaluation of Mirada, but still not sure about what the standard says as far as neck placement, and can't tell anything about a GSD's shoulder angles and general front assembly.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

I have certain traits I like- I like balanced dogs in the work, I like some real aggression, not all prey drive. I try to balance that AND keep the full, calm grip that is so important for schutzhund.

This is WAY off Xeph's thread but forgive me one pic, this is Asher, who I bred, doing a hold and bark. Think he's after the sleeve? 










What I do not (did not) concentrate on was making couch potatos. Working ability or nothing. Want a couch potato, try this on for size- this is the dam of the above show puppies.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Thank you for that, it is good to hear. I have known people to balk at the use of the phrase "real aggression" and know of plenty of breeders breeding for sport dogs that are all prey drive and nervousness and not much else. I'm a believer in real, proper aggression in German Shepherds and am never too certain of a breeder who brags that a GSD "doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body". 

That is a great picture, and a reason I am thinking of doing Schutzhund training with Trent. I'm most definitely not qualified to say this, but I personally believe he is not one of those dogs who would be just prey drive... he's got that aggression and fight in him even I can see, and I say this in the positive sense. 

Now, are the working line dogs you bred west German?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Man, this is becoming a super awesome discussion xD

When I talk about proper neck placement, Eq, the AKC standard itself does not really descibe it so as to be particularly useful.

AKC standard:
The neck is strong and muscular, clean-cut and relatively long, proportionate in size to the head and without loose folds of skin. When the dog is at attention or excited, the head is raised and the neck carried high; otherwise typical carriage of the head is forward rather than up and but little higher than the top of the shoulders, particularly in motion.

SV Standard:
The neck is strong, well-muscled, and clean cut (without folds of loose skin). The angle of neck to torso is approximately 45 degrees.

Clearly, the SV standard is much more descriptive!

I would call this incorrect
http://www.geransgermanshepherd.com/glory.htm

Look how the placement of her neck affects the layback of her shoulder. That is what Lexi looks like (or looked like when I last saw a picture). It's not really correct, but can you see what I mean about it creating a really elegant outline? It's very clean and the curves are uninterrupted.

This however, is much more correct:
http://cdn.pedigreedatabase.com/pictures/531214.jpg

It is highly common in AKC shows to grab the back of the collar when it is right up under the ears, and pull it up and back to give the appearance of more elegance and a longer neck.

No matter what you do to that second bitch, you are not getting that head much higher, and her placement will still be "forward" through the neck. Does that make sense? You cannot crank her head any higher than it is.

Take a look at the shoulder layback on her as well. Since her neck is not coming through the shoulder, her layback is a bit better.



> and can't tell anything about a GSD's shoulder angles and general front assembly.


It's the hardest thing to learn. I still struggle with it when a dog is stationary. A dog can also look like it has a great front, but musculature affects the gait just as much (if not more) as the bones do. I've seen dogs that look like they have great fronts in pictures, and then I see them in person and I'm like "Oh my GOD, WTH!?"



> Want a couch potato, try this on for size- this is the dam of the above show puppies.


Neither of us wants couch potatoes, but that bitch has something lots of the Am GSDs lack right now. ...A HEAD! She did have those wide set ears that were so common though (ear sets are REALLY improving!). Although I'd wager if she weren't looking "sad" for being "caught" on the couch, they'd be sitting higher on her head! LOL!

K9, I can't really tell you anything about your old GSD, but Lazy was a nice looking dog, IMO!

Man, I love these threads, simply because everybody learns something (that totally includes me)! I seriously get excited about it!


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Haha she wasn't "caught" on the couch. She was always allowed up there. The ear placement is normal to her. Here she is in the show ring:










I'm big on where the neck ties into the head- that first dog looks like a pelican to me, HATE that.

Here is my idea of topline, and front assembly. This dog had a shoulder to DIE for. Incredible. Here he is going Best Puppy at a specialty:










Also, for the compare and contrast, here he is at 6 months old.










The best way to look at a shoulder is to draw it. But I need to upload Photoshop for that, BRB.

Edited to add: All dogs shown are/were owned by me, win pictures were bought from the photographer and mine to use.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

OK until I get that done- I'm going to redirect to HEREhttp://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/02_The_Forehand/The_Forehand.html

She draws the bones and explains.

If you can learn to see the Scapula, and the Humerus (upper arm) on a dog, you can draw and figure the angles in your head. Then you can roughly figure front end movement IF the shoulder opens like it should and IF the dog uses his shoulder well. Be careful, the dog's natural coat color often runs near the scapula, and can confuse where the bone actually is, especially in just eyeballing pictures as opposed to actually having hands on a dog.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Something else to consider is that when pictures are at an angle like the ones above, it can make a shoulder look better or worse because you can't really "see" everything (you can but you can't, you know?).

Dark dogs also make front assemblies harder to view!

ETA: Mali, that first dog looks reallllllllllly familiar to me (as in I feel I've seen that win pic before, not in this thread).


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Xeph said:


> ETA: Mali, that first dog looks reallllllllllly familiar to me (as in I feel I've seen that win pic before, not in this thread).


She was in the GSDReviewed website with a pic for a while. Her pedigree is still there, although now GSDReviewed is on the GSDCA site, but I see they have lost the picture. I need to e-mail them.

I doubt you have seen her- she showed in Canada, Washington state, then California and AZ all breeds. She did not have any ads placed on her behalf.  

She bred two litters- the first with Reggie, the second with his son Sel. Ch. Kurdel's St. Nick v Backachers. 

Here she is at 5 picking up her singles.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> She was in the GSDReviewed website with a pic for a while


That's what I thought!!

I couldn't have seen her seen her, but the picture itself just felt really familiar to me...

She was very pretty


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## K9 Wolf (Jan 31, 2010)

Okay, maybe any suggestions on where I could find her? Well, she was bred by her old owner for K9-officers, and I think she was showed a couple of times too. I was just wondering, ya know. If you want I can post pictures of her. I also want to try and stack Lazy, but I don't know how... or maybe get a video or something. Also I'm not much into standart and stuff but what would you consider Lazy to be? Good-bad, for the standart? As I said I'll try and get the picture.


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

K9 Wolf said:


> Okay, maybe any suggestions on where I could find her? Well, she was bred by her old owner for K9-officers, and I think she was showed a couple of times too. I was just wondering, ya know. If you want I can post pictures of her. I also want to try and stack Lazy, but I don't know how... or maybe get a video or something. Also I'm not much into standart and stuff but what would you consider Lazy to be? Good-bad, for the standart? As I said I'll try and get the picture.


You said you tried the CKC? I know their registration papers have pedigrees on them, if you could just get a copy it would help whole bunch.


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## K9 Wolf (Jan 31, 2010)

Okay I'll try that!


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Ok K9 wolf I'm going to see what I can find. DO you have any ideas of named, etc?


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Ok the von D'Andico kennel in Canada has produced several good working dogs. Their dogs are working in schutzhund, and a Dragon von D'Andico represented Canada at the WUSV. (world competition for schutzhund dogs) Depending on age, he MAY be a littermate to your guys mother, Delphi.

Still looking...

Edited to add I also have a B litter puppy and a P litter competing in Ringsports in Canada...


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Back to the original thread, kinda, here is 5 month old Sydney, a Sel. Ch. Welove-DuChien's Rollins daughter, out of a Mastercharge daughter/Andretti lines.










Then here she was at 1 1/2 years.


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## K9 Wolf (Jan 31, 2010)

Nice girl! 

Well Im not getting anywhere with this search... but just in case I'm going to tell you guys her parents names: mother, Delia Von D'andico, father, Flex Von Ducasse.
As much as I wish she was a litter mate to Dragon, she is not, she was born Feb 18th, 2002. But I do so hope she is related


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Flex is in this pedigree twice- should be enough to give you his pedigree. http://monbergerallemand.ca/berger_allemand/males/capone/gif/capone-pedigree.jpg


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Sydney looks a LOT like her sire!


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## Maliraptor (Mar 6, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Sydney looks a LOT like her sire!



She does- and I wish I had a GOOD stack picture of her. Unfortunately we lost her to Cardiomyopathy before her second birthday. She showed in her futurity, then one other specialty before we lost her. :-(


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## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Xeph said:


> As for how I picked Mirada, whenever you pick a puppy for show it is never really a matter of who is "better" because it's all a matter of preference. Theoretically speaking you can finish ANY dog that has no disqualifying or serious faults. Why? Because judging is a matter of preference and politics.
> 
> My first pick puppy was more like Amber, but better balanced. She had a very upright, long, elegant neck. Correct? Not really (she could possibly be ewe necked), but I know what wins. Everything is checks and balances in showing and breeding, and if that bitch holds together she would present an *extremely* elegant outline, and lots of times when you show in all breeds, the judges pick the typey dog with a solid outline.
> 
> ...


And this "Correct? Not really (she could possibly be ewe necked), but I know what wins." is what's wrong with dog showing.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> And this "Correct? Not really (she could possibly be ewe necked), but I know what wins." is what's wrong with dog showing.


If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, don't comment.


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## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Xeph said:


> If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, don't comment.


Well bless your heart.

Bossy little thing, aren't you?

Pssst, you are not in charge of what's worthwhile.


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## k9waggingtails (May 21, 2007)

Geez, sable, troll much? FYI "dog showing" encompasses a LOT, not just AKC all breed conformation. Coonhound people regularly produce dogs that are GRCH, GRNITECH - dog's gotta be able to work AND look like the breed is supposed to.

Maybe you should go back to your cave and hide instead of trying to rile people up.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

sablegsd said:


> And this is what's wrong with dog showing.


no, everydog has a fault in the show ring, thats why there are dog shows. all a Championship means is this dog had the least amount of faults and fit the standard better at the shows it went to. That is why, as Xeph agrees, conformation is not the be all end all and just a piece of a larger picture.

Conformation IS important it DOES have it's benefits but for most breeds it shouldn't be the only thing that determines breeding quality.

Why do you think that the members who show their dogs on here also do lots of other activities? You are just "attacking the choire" with your comments. Go somewhere that thinks that conformation IS everything a dog should need and there your comments will reach those people you keep talking about.


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## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

k9waggingtails said:


> Geez, sable, troll much? FYI "dog showing" encompasses a LOT, not just AKC all breed conformation. Coonhound people regularly produce dogs that are GRCH, GRNITECH - dog's gotta be able to work AND look like the breed is supposed to.
> 
> Maybe you should go back to your cave and hide instead of trying to rile people up.


Not my fault the truth riles some of you up.


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## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Keechak said:


> no, everydog has a fault in the show ring, thats why there are dog shows. all a Championship means is this dog had the least amount of faults and fit the standard better at the shows it went to. That is why, as Xeph agrees, conformation is not the be all end all and just a piece of a larger picture.
> 
> Conformation IS important it DOES have it's benefits but for most breeds it shouldn't be the only thing that determines breeding quality.
> 
> Why do you think that the members who show their dogs on here also do lots of other activities? You are just "attacking the choire" with your comments. Go somewhere that thinks that conformation IS everything a dog should need and there your comments will reach those people you keep talking about.


Sorry, I don't agree that dog shows and I mean the run around in circles beauty paegant shows are good for the breed. In GSD's, breeding for extremes and flashy side gaiting is ruining the breed. Same with the hunch back of Notre Dame look in Germany. 

Seems some of you view different opinions as attacks.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

*whistles music from Avenue Q*


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

sablegsd said:


> Sorry, I don't agree that dog shows and I mean the run around in circles beauty paegant shows are good for the breed. In GSD's, breeding for extremes and flashy side gaiting is ruining the breed. Same with the hunch back of Notre Dame look in Germany.
> 
> Seems some of you view different opinions as attacks.


I don't view different opinions as attacks if they are given in a civil manner. and I completely agree with you that breeding for extremes and a flashy gait can ruin a breed, but I don't understand why you feel like you have to keep accusing DF members of doing such? Xeph has stated time and again that she greatly dislikes an extreme dog and her goal is to move the American lines in a different direction, back to a more moderate dog.

And I also view your comments as attacks when you use blanket statements like Dog shows are bad. Because this comment also attacks my organization of ASCA an organization that penalizes an extreme dog and gives special recognition to dogs and kennels that excel in producing working ranch dogs that meet the standard.


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## k9waggingtails (May 21, 2007)

sablegsd said:


> Sorry, I don't agree that dog shows and I mean the run around in circles beauty paegant shows are good for the breed.


Love the backpedaling! Way to go!!

FYI, bench shows are in place to ensure that the breed looks the way it's supposed to. In my breed (Dalmatians), this is important as a coat pattern is an integral part of breed type.

Sure, breeding for extremes can be detrimental to a breed (and generally causes breed splits). However, you seem to be ignoring groups (such as ASCA, thanks Keechak for bringing them up) that reward function.


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