# Dog spaying - help!



## Kemlotoe (Jul 20, 2012)

My lab Molly is 19 weeks yesterday...and we want to get her spayed.

The question is when...
we want it to be idealy before she goes into season, a) avoid unwanted pregnancy - my village is loaded with dogs! And b) to avoid the heat season, as it's just easier and cleaner for us but if it's better for Molly then we will put up with it for the 21 days or so it lasts!

Heard different opinions of 5 months, 6 months and after her first heat. 

Ultimately want the best for Molly and that's the most important factor here.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

we usually do it around 5 close to 6 months right before the first heat cycle but a lot of people have strong opinions on the matter. Also sometimes dogs come into heat early sometimes later. most of the time you catch it at the right time between 5 and 6 months old.

The reasons are - if you spay a dog to young the organ tissue is very delicate and easy to tear during surgery. the female organs are very under developed making the removal process much more difficult. This can be dangerous. There are other reasons but this to me is the main one. It is a nightmare trying to spay a female dog that's tissue tears easily.

The reason we do not like to wait for their first heat cycle is because of the reasons your worried about, but also it takes awhile for the system to get back to normal after the heat cycle ends about 1 month. and if you catch it to early there is a lot of bleeding and swelling during the surgery. 

so 5-6 months! if your worried about it pay the extra money for the blood work ahead of time to eliminate a lot of complications. Make sure your vet sends home with you antibiotics , pain meds, and an E-collar ( or buy one yourself) all vets have differing opinions on what is needed and what is not and I believe in playing it safe rather then taking a chance. MAYBE your dog wont go after her incision but if she does then your have another problem.


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## bgmacaw (May 5, 2012)

We just had our Chi mix spayed this week. She's 7 months. Everything has gone quite well so far but the operation was yesterday. She's in a bit of pain but pain meds help. So far she's left her stitches alone but that could change as they switch from painful to itchy.

We've generally had our cats and dogs spayed/neutered at about 6-8 months. For dogs, waiting until they have their adult teeth is good since this allows the vet to handle any tooth problems in the same operation time. 

We've adopted some cats that had pediatric operations by a rescue. This hasn't been a problem for them as they've grown up. We've never had a dog that's had an early procedure though. Since most dogs grow more, early fixing may have a negative impact according to some info I've seen.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

Mine was fixed at 5 months and she acted like she never had surgery. She didn't need the pain medication and she was back to herself as soon as she walked in the door. The hardest part was keeping her on the calm side, so she could heal. I even checked the incision to make sure she was fixed because she didn't even acknowledge it.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I have only ever had three female dogs ... that were spayed. Abbylynn was spayed at 5 months old at the rescue and she is a year and a half old now with no health issues. Lucy (rescue) was accidentally spayed twice and the second time at approximately 5-7 years old! :/ .... and one dog I rescued, Kokomo ... was spayed after her first heat ... I waited until she was 11 months old ... and is now almost 10 years old and has absolutely no health issues.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Talk to your Vet, but before the first heat, 5 -6 mos is fine. Also, try to make it convenient for you b/c you may need to watch her to keep her calm and you may want to rent an Elizabethan collar to prevent her from licking/chewing on the incision. (My Vet provides one on loan as part of the procedure.) I was able to tell my male Lab "Don't Lick!" (no, I didn't train him).

Take the 3 days of pain meds, but most Labs wake up a little groggy, then they're ready to go! So you have to work to keep her quiet for 1 - 2 weeks, depending on recommendations from the Vet. Usually, Vets have some type of handout. You also want some type of after hours contact, just in case she does something typically Lab, and you need advice.


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## LilasMom (Jan 18, 2012)

With large dogs it can be better to wait until over a year old. Small dogs and big dogs grow at different rates, and while a small dog may be close to fully grown at 6 months, a big dog is not. I think it is better to wait until the big dog is closer to adult size because their eggs and testicles produce bodily chemicals and hormones that help aid in their growth.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

LilasMom said:


> With large dogs it can be better to wait until over a year old. Small dogs and big dogs grow at different rates, and while a small dog may be close to fully grown at 6 months, a big dog is not. I think it is better to wait until the big dog is closer to adult size because their eggs and testicles produce bodily chemicals and hormones that help aid in their growth.


I have a german shepherd and fixing her at 5 months has not affected her growth at all. I also have a 2.5 year old golden that wasn't affected and he was fixed at the same age...My 7 year old was also fixed at the same age and she hasn't had any problems..growth or otherwise. I think it just depends on the dog itself. The younger the dog, the easier the surgery is on them. That would go for the healing time too.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

luvmyfurballs said:


> I have a german shepherd and fixing her at 5 months has not affected her growth at all. I also have a 2.5 year old golden that wasn't affected and he was fixed at the same age...My 7 year old was also fixed at the same age and she hasn't had any problems..growth or otherwise. I think it just depends on the dog itself. The younger the dog, the easier the surgery is on them. That would go for the healing time too.


 All dogs who are neutered young growth is affected. Dogs fixed early on are taller since the growth plates do not close properly. Also, in females spaying to young (at all, actually) can cause incontinence. I did tons of research and I will never own another fixed dog. Not worth the risks to me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think I'd rather deal with incontinence than pyo, mammary gland cancer, and the possibility of accidental pregnancies. I did tons of research and I'll never own an unspayed dog. Not worth the risks to me.


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## houndies (Feb 2, 2012)

LilasMom said:


> With large dogs it can be better to wait until over a year old. Small dogs and big dogs grow at different rates, and while a small dog may be close to fully grown at 6 months, a big dog is not. I think it is better to wait until the big dog is closer to adult size because their eggs and testicles produce bodily chemicals and hormones that help aid in their growth.


I agree with this and with Willowy ;-) . Sex hormones play a huge part in regulating the growth speed and it has been found that waiting for one season before spaying helps reduce orthopaedic issues. And the earlier you spay the lesser the chance of mammary cancer. I think it is around 0-1% chance before 1st season and then around 5-7% chance if you wait after one season. (there are hereditary factors as well). It is your decision and your lifestyle that is paramount.Such as being absolutely 100% sure your girl won't get pregnant. And seasons are a bit of a pain for all of you. We had to be more creative where we walked and when so not to encounter any intact boys. Also we have a six foot walled garden and we live in a city that you don't have wandering dogs. So personally after studying the pros and cons I spayed my five after a season.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

Willowy said:


> I think I'd rather deal with incontinence than pyo, mammary gland cancer, and the possibility of accidental pregnancies. I did tons of research and I'll never own an unspayed dog. Not worth the risks to me.


I am with you on this 100%. While some people think that there is no need for spaying/neutering, others believe the exact opposite. Anyone who has ever worked at a vet, a shelter, or a place like this will agree that spaying/neutering is beneficial. I would much rather base my decision on facts and things I've seen then any research I can read. We are living in a real world where real things happen....this is not a decision that is based on "I've never seen that so it must not be happening". Dogs that are not fixed can end up with many more issues then a dog that is fixed...that is a fact that I've seen hundreds of times.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> All dogs who are neutered young growth is affected. Dogs fixed early on are taller since the growth plates do not close properly.


This is a very broad statement and again I stress that all my dogs(they are medium to large) have been fixed early with no problems with there growth. They are as normal as the next dog within their breeds. So for me to have 3 dogs in my house with no issues really makes your statement not true. And even IF it was true I would rather deal with a tall dog then a dog with cancer or enflamed uterus, etc.


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## houndies (Feb 2, 2012)

luvmyfurballs said:


> I am with you on this 100%. While some people think that there is no need for spaying/neutering, others believe the exact opposite. Anyone who has ever worked at a vet, a shelter, or a place like this will agree that spaying/neutering is beneficial. I would much rather base my decision on facts and things I've seen then any research I can read. We are living in a real world where real things happen....this is not a decision that is based on "I've never seen that so it must not be happening". Dogs that are not fixed can end up with many more issues then a dog that is fixed...that is a fact that I've seen hundreds of times.


I don't think anyone said to not spay it is more about when. With larger boned dogs, in my opinion after looking at pros and cons, I decided to let my girls have a season (or another depending on their maturity) before spaying. It is a really loaded thing spaying - vets are very divided.... It is up to you to do the research and decide what is best for you...


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## Kemlotoe (Jul 20, 2012)

Think that's what it comes down to...so many varied opinions...just from this thread alone! There are pros and cons to both but I am definitely getting her spayed, and as soon as it is safe to do so, the sooner the better I guess. Things can go wrong both ways unfortunately just as with human ops, she will be fine I'm sure though, and she will be oblivious to the whole thing in the end!


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

I have always spayed my female dogs around 5-6 months old. it effects males and females differently obviously. Male dogs have less health issues intact as females dog from personal experience but both have very high percentages of getting a serious health problem intact. i just read an article online that 28% of intact females get pyometra before they are 10 yrs old. and 1 in 4 intact females will get mammary gland cancer. that is only 2 of the problems intact females get! those are HIGH numbers! In the past 2 months we have had 3 Pyometra emergency spays and 1 mammary gland tumor removal. ( and a lot of not removed mammary gland tumors ) and in the past 6 years not have one dog come back with complications due to spaying or neutering. 

we get a lot of people in who feel it is wrong to spay or neuter the dog. Mostly neuter. its a man hood thing. Male dogs do not develop the same if they are neutered young. I will always neuter my dogs at 2 years old. They develop perfectly and look "manly" and have good muscle structure. where is a male dog neutered young, do not fill out and their genital area is generally under formed and small.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

Spaying is a convenience procedure. I've talked with many experienced breeders of many different breeds and only 2 breeders had any issues (one was cancer, one was pyo, both treated and dogs had many healthy years after that) in all the years they had been breeding. Its not hard to keep an unfixed animal (or more then one for that matter), but I understand that not all pet owners want that responsibility. My dogs don't get unnecessary procedures. I don't vaccinate. The risks aren't worth the "rewards" for me. To each his own.


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## bgmacaw (May 5, 2012)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> I don't vaccinate. The risks aren't worth the "rewards" for me. To each his own.


I hope you at least vaccinate against rabies. From what I see it's illegal to not have a dog, cat or ferret vaccinated against it in Washington state.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

bgmacaw said:


> I hope you at least vaccinate against rabies. From what I see it's illegal to not have a dog, cat or ferret vaccinated against it in Washington state.


No, I don't, as the rabies vaccine causes the most issues. Its never been an issue. We go to dog parks, training classes and the like. We just don't board. Very few of the natural rearing breeders in WA vaccinate.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> I don't vaccinate. The risks aren't worth the "rewards" for me. To each his own.


Seriously?  How do you get away with this? 
Where I am, _it's the law_ to have your animal regularly vaccinated, especially for rabies. That, and I have no idea whether or not someone else's animal has been vaccinated. If another animal is sick, and mine aren't vaccinated, I'm screwed, most likely. 
How are vaccinations unnecessary, exactly?


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

HollowHeaven said:


> Seriously?  How do you get away with this?
> Where I am, _it's the law_ to have your animal regularly vaccinated, especially for rabies. That, and I have no idea whether or not someone else's animal has been vaccinated. If another animal is sick, and mine aren't vaccinated, I'm screwed, most likely.
> How are vaccinations unnecessary, exactly?


 Its the law here too (for rabies), but its not enforced. I believe that it is my choice to vaccinate, and I DO titer, so I know what their immunities are. I usually give one 7 way pup vaccine and then just do titers and never had a dog lack any immunity. All animals, including humans are over-vaccinated in this society. Vaccines have tons to side effects, some that can last the life of the dog, including skin issues, food sensitivity and seasonal-type allergies.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

Didn't reply exactly to the unnecessary part:

Dog are born with pretty much all the immunities they need, that is what colostrum is for. I know a few breeders who don't even give the one 7 way that I like too, and have never had an issue with disease.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Yeah, but why risk it? I don't want my dog picking up parvo or getting rabies. I also don't want to be banned from the dog park due to not being UTD on bordatella, since it's the only dog park in my area. She has never had any problems from getting yearly vaccs. So... Why risk it?


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Yeah, but why risk it? I don't want my dog picking up parvo or getting rabies. I also don't want to be banned from the dog park due to not being UTD on bordatella, since it's the only dog park in my area. She has never had any problems from getting yearly vaccs. So... Why risk it?


I'm not saying that no one should vaccinate, just that I don't. I've done my research, I know my area.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Yeah, but why risk it? I don't want my dog picking up parvo or getting rabies. I also don't want to be banned from the dog park due to not being UTD on bordatella, since it's the only dog park in my area. She has never had any problems from getting yearly vaccs. So... Why risk it?


 Also, everywhere I've ever been in WA will take a titer in place of shot records.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> Its the law here too (for rabies), but its not enforced. I believe that it is my choice to vaccinate, and I DO titer, so I know what their immunities are. I usually give one 7 way pup vaccine and then just do titers and never had a dog lack any immunity. All animals, including humans are over-vaccinated in this society. Vaccines have tons to side effects, some that can last the life of the dog, including skin issues, food sensitivity and seasonal-type allergies.


 So you DO vaccinate, just not repeatedly. I'm all for that; there's no reason to give vaccines repeatedly. I don't approve of not vaccinating at all, though. Especially for rabies. 

If animals are born with all the immunities they need, why do some animals get rabies (or other diseases)? I wouldn't be comfortable never vaccinating for rabies. Scares me to death.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Many people feel that vaccinations cause problems in the dogs health. but the rabies vaccinations was never designed for the animals health but more so designed for human protection. the rabies vaccination is a "killed virus" causing the body to produce immunization. once and awhile a dog will have a reaction to a vaccine most of the time its an allergic reaction. this is an issue that can come up with basically any form of drug used anywhere. dog or people. there are some reports of vaccinations causing other issues with dogs but the problem is no one comes together with their information or reports their findings and no one wants to commit the $$ to the testing required to find out what caused the dogs issues. so its left up in the air and some people feel that this is a serious concern to their pets health. 

the fact of the matter is we get 100x more not vaccinated dogs catching these serious diseases compared to dogs having reactions of any kind to the vaccinations. but people are entitled to their own opinion and the dogs are theirs and I respect that. 

Also the rabies vaccination is the law , some places will allow you to have a rabies titer instead instead of vaccinating yearly to those that truly believe the vaccinations are dangerous for their pets but it still requires a vaccination to start with. That is the law and from my experience it usually catches up to you eventually but some communities are smaller and people are not concerned about this. I always tell people though rabies is not for your dog its for your family and it isn't about whether you will get caught or not. Last year a bat got into my home and bit one of my dogs and they are vaccinated every year but I wasn't able to catch the bat to have it tested and I worried and worried for DAYS. My friends Husky caught a bat and he was bitten a few times by the bat and the bat did come back positive for rabies. but the dog dodged the bullet cause it had been vaccinated. Rabies IS out there and god forbid your dog does contract it and the trauma and pain that will follow that. The dog starts to show clinical signs of rabies becomes a danger to those around it pet or human. Most likely it will be confined at the animal control or vet to confirm it is progressing through the stages of rabies. ( the only way to confirm rabies on a live animal is to confine the animal and look for the symptoms for usually 10 days ) Then the dog WILL be euthanized most likely the corpse will be taken by the state to confirm that it indeed had rabies and the way they will test for rabies is to remove the dogs head. Yes its sad but that is how it goes.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

Willowy said:


> So you DO vaccinate, just not repeatedly. I'm all for that; there's no reason to give vaccines repeatedly. I don't approve of not vaccinating at all, though. Especially for rabies.
> 
> If animals are born with all the immunities they need, why do some animals get rabies (or other diseases)? I wouldn't be comfortable never vaccinating for rabies. Scares me to death.


Yes. I vaccinate once. My dogs get one rabies as well, when they are around 2 years old. Both have had issues with both the vaccines they have been given, and that is more than enough. Like I said, I've done my research, I titer so I know what my dogs have immunity to, and that is enough for me. I raise my dogs as naturally as possible. They get PMR, very minimal vaccines, no heartworm meds, no flea/tick preventatives, I don't spay/neuter. My dogs are all healthy, there are no unwanted pregnancies, and if there is ever an issue it can be treated holistically. To each his own.


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## Mheath0429 (Sep 4, 2011)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> Yes. I vaccinate once. My dogs get one rabies as well, when they are around 2 years old. Both have had issues with both the vaccines they have been given, and that is more than enough. Like I said, I've done my research, I titer so I know what my dogs have immunity to, and that is enough for me. I raise my dogs as naturally as possible. They get PMR, very minimal vaccines, no heartworm meds, no flea/tick preventatives, I don't spay/neuter. My dogs are all healthy, there are no unwanted pregnancies, and if there is ever an issue it can be treated holistically. To each his own.


I prefer a holistic way of life with my dogs as well. Unlike you, all of my pets have had their puppy/kitten shots and have to have 3 year rabies. It is a frustrating situation, but it is enforced in the Metro-Detroit area. I truly have no choice if I want my dogs to see the light of day. We do not use flea/tick preventative, but instead essential oils. 
I do give heartworm medication in the warm months, because Michigan has a terrible mosquito issue, but I only give it every 45 days and it is not given in the winter. 

Spay and Neuter will always be a touchy subject. Of course, you have the side that says it is 100% necessary to prevent overpopulation - but, I have an intact male who will be very well contained. There is research that states neutering may NOT have that many benefits attributed to it and it doesn't stop marking or humping. If I do neuter him, it will be after he is 18 months and possibly even later. My female is a different situation, she is spayed but it was done after 18 months. Yes, mammary tumors are terrifying but dogs can get any form of cancer if they are exposed to enough carcinogens and these days, if it's not mammary tumor its something else. If you are truly concerned about tumors, I suggest you quit applying the topicals, as they can cause significantly more damage than good.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

I too do not like to apply the topical flea treatments. I have never had a flea problem once in 26 years, they do not test dog product very thoroughly and it seems like applying a pesticide regularly onto the skin would have unwanted side effects in the long run. Its a bunch of chemical soaking into the skin every month. I have applied it once when Leo came back with over 20 ticks on him and I was worried I would not find them all. Other wise I feel like there are going to be long term side effects they never tested for. I am a firm believer in spay and neutering but not because of over population. and more so spaying cause I do honestly see a lot of issues with female dogs. But there is an underlying issue here too.

Most dogs at least in our area that are not spay or neutered is not because the owner wants to go the natural way, it is because the owner does not have the funds to do the procedure. they also do not have the funds to properly care for the dog. they get garbage food, poor care in general and are in many ways neglected. For the average dog owner I would say spaying and neutering is important to the dogs health, however I am sure if someone took the time and care into keeping their dog healthy in a holistic way it would probably have a completely different set of health statistics. The average dog owner buys the product they see on TV the food they see on TV and the dog has a normal life style, but combine that with not spaying or neutering you would probably have more issues then a person who takes great care in the types of products and food their dog intakes.

If someone goes the holistic way of life for their dogs they usually go all in and like i said there is probably a completely different set of health statistics in this life style but most people wont take that sort of time or care for their pets.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

Fade said:


> I too do not like to apply the topical flea treatments. I have never had a flea problem once in 26 years, they do not test dog product very thoroughly and it seems like applying a pesticide regularly onto the skin would have unwanted side effects in the long run. Its a bunch of chemical soaking into the skin every month. I have applied it once when Leo came back with over 20 ticks on him and I was worried I would not find them all. Other wise I feel like there are going to be long term side effects they never tested for. I am a firm believer in spay and neutering but not because of over population. and more so spaying cause I do honestly see a lot of issues with female dogs. But there is an underlying issue here too.
> 
> Most dogs at least in our area that are not spay or neutered is not because the owner wants to go the natural way, it is because the owner does not have the funds to do the procedure. they also do not have the funds to properly care for the dog. they get garbage food, poor care in general and are in many ways neglected. For the average dog owner I would say spaying and neutering is important to the dogs health, however I am sure if someone took the time and care into keeping their dog healthy in a holistic way it would probably have a completely different set of health statistics. The average dog owner buys the product they see on TV the food they see on TV and the dog has a normal life style, but combine that with not spaying or neutering you would probably have more issues then a person who takes great care in the types of products and food their dog intakes.
> 
> If someone goes the holistic way of life for their dogs they usually go all in and like i said there is probably a completely different set of health statistics in this life style but most people wont take that sort of time or care for their pets.


Oh I totally agree with you there. That's how it is around here too, most unfixed animals are that way because of lack of funds or not wanting to take away the dogs "manhood" *rolls eyes* And I believe that for most pet owners spay/neuter is the right thing to do. If you can't (or don't want to, and hey, I understand that completely) have to watch your dogs 100% of the time to prevent pregnancies then you should fix your dog. I usually recommend waiting as long as possible if you spay/neuter, preferably after 2 years, as that gives the growth plates sufficient time to close.


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