# Are breeders responsible for cryptorchidism?



## SilkySmooth (Oct 11, 2012)

We just purchased a puppy from a breeder and it turns out he's a cryptorchid. We're not showing but his breeder charged us show price for this dog because, according to her, they were all top picks. Now, we find out that all the males in this litter are cryptorchid, but we were never informed in the months we waited for this dog. 

The contract doesn't mention anything about testicles but does say that life threatening genetic illnesses are covered. Is it unreasonable to ask her to split the difference of the cost of the new surgery vs regular neuter? 

This is really a hassle for us since we wanted to wait to neuter (1 year) until he was past puberty and to allow his growth plates to close up since he's a long-legged breed and we don't want to put excess strain on his joints, but now we're worried about cancer and torsion risk. Anybody have any experience with this? He's about 14 weeks and still bereft of balls. I don't really want to reveal the breeder or breed name since it's a small community and I'm still waiting to hear back from her.

As an aside, I've read that this is a genetic disorder passed through the dam. Would all the mother's pups be affected by this in the future? I think she's planning on breeding this litter's females, would they also pass it on?

Any help is appreciated, thanks!


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

It is genetic, and whichever parent passed on that gene shouldn't ever be bred again. Shame on your breeder for planning on intentional breeding from this litter! I once bought a puppy with the same problem - found out the "good" breeder I thought I bought him from, wasn't so great. I tried to get my money back - no dice, for the reasons you listed (not life threatening). However, it's imperative that the dog be neutered b/c this disorder increases the odds of testicular cancer. The neutering is also much more invasive, b/c the vet has to "find" the testicles during the surgery. One of my pup's testicles couldn't be found with manipulation, and the other one was thought to be up near his abdomen. My pup had other non life threatening health issues as well, and I returned him to the breeder, but didn't get my money back until she rehomed him (only got 1/3 of my money back). You can ask the breeder to help pay for his neuter, but don't hold your breath...

It's not too late for your pup's testicles to drop, since he's only 14 weeks, but if all the males in the litter are this way, they may not. If they don't drop by around 4 months, they probably won't.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

This breeder had to have known that they were missing testicles, unless she just wasn't checking. That doesn't make any sense if she is selling show quality males. I check all my males once I see a pouch/sac developing, and if I think they are missing one, I go searching for it and try to help it down. 

Yeah it is genetic, I have had one true crypt (and not just a late dropper), never again bred from that line, both my girls are spayed. If the whole litter is true crypt, then those dogs should never be bred from again. 

Can you feel where the testicles are? Sometimes they are just sucked up, if you can't though it's a good chance they are in the abdomen and will need to be removed sooner than later. 

I agree you can ask for her to chip in, but I don't see it happening.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I had an 8 month old male Shih Tzu x Maltese that I took in to be neutered. I called them up a little later to see if he was done and they said he could not be done as his testicles were not down. This was a dog a raised and he definitely had testicles! I went into the Vet, took him out of their kennel and said what are these? The Vet said, well he must have pulled them up because they were not there. I don't even know if it is possible to pull them up at 8 months although I know young puppies can.

She was a new Vet at that hospital and she did not last long.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

There has always been a debate if it is genetic or a vit A deficiency during a particular stage during pregnancy. When my sirius was monorchidism this is what my vet explained to me when we were talking about surgery. It will be more invasive because they will have to go looking for the other testicle and if it is not on the surface the body could of never produced it, or already reabsorbed it or they just not able to find it. I don't care for putting dogs under unless it is necessary and I was concerned about cancer he wasn't too concern it would cause him problems and we would just keep an eye on him as he grew. I didn't do the surgery he stay'd one testicle his entire life. Lived healthy past 15 years old which his heart was failling him, raised on fresh raw food diet and only 3 years rabies vac. The concern for turning cancer in the body is real it does happen and each owner should make a decission based on what feels right to them for possible outcomes. As far as your show contract what is your Breeders definition of show in her contract. Best wishes to you.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PatriciafromCO said:


> There has always been a debate if it is genetic or a vit A deficiency during a particular stage during pregnancy.


No, it's pretty much considered genetic.


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## SilkySmooth (Oct 11, 2012)

georgiapeach said:


> It is genetic, and whichever parent passed on that gene shouldn't ever be bred again.


That's what I thought, but I'm pretty sure she's bred from her before and will again. She says it's common in the breed. Is cryptorchidism universally bad in the show world or are there some breeds where you're allowed to get away with this sort of flaw? 

Do you know when you should neuter for this kind of thing, or is that something that's size/breed dependent? We have not seen a vet yet, he's been on a plane ride and gets car sick so we wanted to give him a few days to rest first. But he's a relatively rare breed so I'm not sure our vet would know the specifics and I don't really trust this breeder to fully inform me at this point.



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> This breeder had to have known that they were missing testicles, unless she just wasn't checking. That doesn't make any sense if she is selling show quality males. I check all my males once I see a pouch/sac developing, and if I think they are missing one, I go searching for it and try to help it down.
> [...]
> Can you feel where the testicles are? Sometimes they are just sucked up, if you can't though it's a good chance they are in the abdomen and will need to be removed sooner than later.


She did know that they were missing as early as 8 weeks, it's in the vet's notes (which includes info about the entire litter.) In the notes only one of the dogs has palpable testicles in its abdomen, but ours does not. I've tried feeling for them myself but his underside is as smooth as a baby's bottom and his sack is definitely flaccid. 

I guess this sort of thing isn't normally covered by breeders?



PatriciafromCO said:


> I didn't do the surgery he stay'd one testicle his entire life. Lived healthy past 15 years old which his heart was failling him, raised on fresh raw food diet and only 3 years rabies vac. The concern for turning cancer in the body is real it does happen and each owner should make a decission based on what feels right to them for possible outcomes.
> [...]
> As far as your show contract what is your Breeders definition of show in her contract. Best wishes to you.


We know the cancer risk is something like 50x higher with a cryptorchid so we're a little freaked out to say the least! We've had to deal with leukemia in another animal who eventually passed from it. It was a horrible ordeal that cost us a lot emotionally and financially (who knew you could get blood transfusions for pets!) We had her transfused 4 times because she was just so young, we couldn't not give her a chance. I definitely do not want to do that again, but like you I'm not really thrilled about invasive surgery.

Her contract doesn't define show vs pet except to specify that pets should be spayed/neutered within 12 months... I'm somewhat pissed that she didn't tell us anything before the dog showed up on our doorstep. We might have requested a female or waited if we had known. :nono:


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Check to see if your state has a puppy lemon law. Something like that is pretty egregious, a buyer should be told about a puppy being cryptorchid up front. With most puppy lemon laws you don't actually have to give the puppy back, but you may get a partial refund or the breeder may have to help pay for medical care.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

To my knowledge all standards for each breed say cryptorchidism is a DQ. What breed is this? 

I agree the breed should have told you, and I second the looking up of lemon laws. Personally I would take him to your vet, see what they say, then go from there, I would not wait too long to do the neuter though.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

SilkySmooth said:


> We just purchased a puppy from a breeder and it turns out he's a cryptorchid. We're not showing but his breeder charged us show price for this dog because, according to her, they were all top picks. Now, we find out that all the males in this litter are cryptorchid, but we were never informed in the months we waited for this dog.


So, do you know that all the males were crytorchid because you talked to the breeder or the other owners? I would certainly approach the breeder about sharing the cost of the more expensive neuter. If they say no, you've not lost anything that you wouldn't lose if you didn't ask. Sometimes puppies have bouncing testicles which are sometimes there and sometimes not. My last pup went in the show ring at 5 months (puppy class) and the judge commented that she couldn't feel testicles. Later I checked him and found one, and dropped by the vet on the way home from the show, and she assured me both were there. And sure enough 8 years later he still has two bouncy "boys". So give it a little time.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

SilkySmooth said:


> That's what I thought, but I'm pretty sure she's bred from her before and will again. She says it's common in the breed. Is cryptorchidism universally bad in the show world or are there some breeds where you're allowed to get away with this sort of flaw?
> 
> Do you know when you should neuter for this kind of thing, or is that something that's size/breed dependent? We have not seen a vet yet, he's been on a plane ride and gets car sick so we wanted to give him a few days to rest first. But he's a relatively rare breed so I'm not sure our vet would know the specifics and I don't really trust this breeder to fully inform me at this point.
> 
> ...


If the puppy is cryptorchid, there is no way a good breeder would be representing him as "show quality" (I don't know many breeders blind enough to insist that their whole litter is "top pick" anyway) Especially if she required show price for this puppy it should certainly be covered by the breeder (whether you intend to breed him or not). Of course, if this is common in the puppies she breeds, and she's continuing to knowingly breed the same line, chances are you've come across a breeder who's not quite as ethical as you would hope.


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## SilkySmooth (Oct 11, 2012)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> To my knowledge all standards for each breed say cryptorchidism is a DQ. What breed is this?
> 
> I agree the breed should have told you, and I second the looking up of lemon laws. Personally I would take him to your vet, see what they say, then go from there, I would not wait too long to do the neuter though.


I hope google doesn't crawl this page right away, but he's a silken windhound. It's a breed derived from borzoi's and whippets, but rumored to have some sheltie in there because of the MDR1 gene. I've been told whippets have a tendency to cryptorchidism, so I guess that's where it comes from. I'm not sure about the breeding practices for whippets or borzois. There's not that much info online about silkens either, although I've read there is "some cryptorchidism in the breed" but they're supposed to be pretty robust healthwise.


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## SilkySmooth (Oct 11, 2012)

Pawzk9 said:


> So, do you know that all the males were crytorchid because you talked to the breeder or the other owners?


In the papers she sent me for our puppy, there were also the details for the other dogs (vaccinations and exam notes.) I don't have contact with any of the other buyers but I do have the email for one. I'm really hoping that they'll drop but the breeder not giving me much hope in that department. She told me it was common in the breed in a 3 line email. She hasn't been the best about communicating but she's supposed to be reputable and is referred to on their society's website.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

silkysmooth am very sorry for your loss of your other pet, comend you doing the treatment to let their life be better. You should be able to get a full refund and return the pup to your breeder because no testicles in any breed disqualifies them from showing the puppy can not fufill the contract as a show quality dog. Weither you intended to fix the dog and not show the dog any way. she still sold the dog as a show quality. I didn't catch how old the pup was?


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## SilkySmooth (Oct 11, 2012)

He's about 14 weeks.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

SilkySmooth said:


> In the papers she sent me for our puppy, there were also the details for the other dogs (vaccinations and exam notes.) I don't have contact with any of the other buyers but I do have the email for one. I'm really hoping that they'll drop but the breeder not giving me much hope in that department. She told me it was common in the breed in a 3 line email. She hasn't been the best about communicating but she's supposed to be reputable and is referred to on their society's website.


If she bails on this, I would certainly let the society referring her know all the details of your transaction.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Where do you show a breed not yet accepted by the AKC? This whole thing is wonky.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

SilkySmooth said:


> He's about 14 weeks.


agree with you that I would of liked to have them dropped at this age especially since they could feel them on another pup from the litter. I know my mentor would want to wait before making a final decission like 6 months and I know my vet told me there is a certain age that the opening seals and if they have dropped by that age they not going to.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Amaryllis said:


> Where do you show a breed not yet accepted by the AKC? This whole thing is wonky.


AKC isn't the only place to show dogs in the United States, you can show them in UKC and the international shows.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Amaryllis said:


> Where do you show a breed not yet accepted by the AKC? This whole thing is wonky.


I showed Aussies for a good 20 years before they were recognized by the AKC. There is a rare breed registry which holds shows (at the time I was showing with them so were Shar Pei, Xolos and I think Chinese Crested) and many rare breed registries have their own show and trial program. Even many years after AKC, ASCA is still very active, puts on their own national speciatlies and local and regional events. AKC may want you to think they are the only registry that matters, but it's simply not true.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Amaryllis said:


> Where do you show a breed not yet accepted by the AKC? This whole thing is wonky.


Some breeds, like Cotons, are shown at UKC events, since that registry recognizes them.


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Keechak said:


> AKC isn't the only place to show dogs in the United States, you can show them in UKC and the international shows.


There is also ARBA (American Rare Breed Assoc).

I don't have much experience with Silkens. But I know Whippets tend to throw crypts and late droppers all the time. Not so much in Borzoi.

To me, this sounds like a shady breeder. Anyone who sells a crypt for show potential price is a nut. And to suggest that all the puppies are worthy of being top pick is insane. They may all be showable, but they are not all equal.

I know in my Deerhound's litter, all puppies are show quality. Not all will be shown, though, since the breeder was more concerned with getting them good homes, vs. show homes. But there was one that was a late dropper. He had dropped by the time he left at 10 weeks, though.


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