# Too Early to Neuter? Your Experience?



## GoldenWA (Apr 29, 2015)

I've read a few articles that have opposite opinions on how early you can Neuter and have also spoken with two vets. I'm curious what you all think, since I've received nothing but great advice thus far on this forum (thanks).

We have a 14 week, male mini golden retriever. He's appox. 10.5 pounds right now. We're inclined to get him neutered this week since we'll have some extra time off for the holiday and my wife will be home a few extra days to keep a close eye on the pup for meds and attention (love).

Do any of you have experience getting this done this early? Any hesitations? 

One vet said he'd do the operation no problem and will take him 1 hour and the pup can come home right away with us. Another local vet says they'll keep the pup over night to keep a close watch on him and administer meds and we can get him in the AM - they are also a bit more expensive. Money isn't an issue, we just want the pup taken care of. When you had it done, did you take your pup right home? 

Would love any advice you might have and thanks so much in advance.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

I would STRONGLY advise you don't do that. The testicles do not just produce sperm, they produce lots of chemicals that are essential for growing and hormone control. Neutering early closes off this control meaning your dogs body will grow very oddly and he may have a lot of difficulty mentally later on in life.
I am against neutering as a whole unless there's a health reason but I know some people have opposing views. All I can say is wait for your dog to mature first before neutering, my dog is entire and I've never had any issues related to having testicles so there's no reason to neuter prematurely.

At that age you'll also have very higher risks with anesthesia complications. I do not know anyone who'd recommend neutering at such a young age, the vets are likely doing it for the money unfortunately.


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## Sighty (Mar 16, 2014)

I second everything that gingerwrinklepup said.
The earliest I would neuter a dog would be 2-3 years, at which point they will be mentally and physically matured. But if there are no medical problems and the dog is not too affected by females in heat, I wouldn't even consider it.


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## Caro (Sep 10, 2012)

I would wait until 8 - 10 months of age. I realize rescues spay & neuter puppies on a regular basis; while that may be good for decreasing the general dog population since they cannot guarantee people will bring the dogs back later, it is better for a dog to have its hormones for development.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Personally, I would never neuter a dog before 1 or 2 years old. Hormones are so important for growth. There have been numerous studies about the negative effects of early neuters.

Even if you really want to get it done earlier for some reason, 14 weeks is far too young. At least wait until 8 months or so.

Trust me, you won't have any issues keeping him intact for a little while. The behavioral issues most people associate with intact dogs (marking, humping) happen all the time with neutered dogs and are more about training than hormones. I have an almost 3 year old intact male and it really hasn't been a big deal.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> At that age you'll also have very higher risks with anesthesia complications. I do not know anyone who'd recommend neutering at such a young age, the vets are likely doing it for the money unfortunately.


No. There is not a higher risk of anesthetic complications for a healthy 14-15 week old puppy and it is common in shelter environments to spay/neuter as young as 8 weeks old without a higher rate of anesthetic complications. 

Having said that, there is evidence accumulating that there are benefits to delaying spay/neuter although the "best" time is hard to pin down. Personally for a dog that size I would wait until a year or so.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

sassafras said:


> No. There is not a higher risk of anesthetic complications for a healthy 14-15 week old puppy and it is common in shelter environments to spay/neuter as young as 8 weeks old without a higher rate of anesthetic complications.
> 
> Having said that, there is evidence accumulating that there are benefits to delaying spay/neuter although the "best" time is hard to pin down. Personally for a dog that size I would wait until a year or so.


Interesting, I certainly thought there would be since they're so young and still developing.

Personally a breed that is prone to joint problems like retrievers you should wait longer than a year, most dogs growth plates don't close for atleast 18 months so the longer you leave it the better.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

For cats, I think 14 weeks is ideal . There aren't any more surgical complications; in fact, it's probably safer at that age than after full maturity.

For dogs, no, evidence seems to suggest they should keep their hormones long enough to mature physically, this varies depending on breed. And lifestyle matters too---if you can't keep him away from in-heat females, you'll want to have it done before he become fertile, even if it's not ideal. But if you don't have a problem keeping him contained, no hurry.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

Willowy said:


> For cats, I think 14 weeks is ideal . There aren't any more surgical complications; in fact, it's probably safer at that age than after full maturity.
> 
> For dogs, no, evidence seems to suggest they should keep their hormones long enough to mature physically, this varies depending on breed. And lifestyle matters too---if you can't keep him away from in-heat females, you'll want to have it done before he become fertile, even if it's not ideal. But if you don't have a problem keeping him contained, no hurry.


Hormones control growth, testicles control some hormones, it's obvious science and has lots of evidence.

How is neutering at 14 weeks ideal exactly?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> if you can't keep him away from in-heat females, you'll want to have it done before he become fertile, even if it's not ideal. But if you don't have a problem keeping him contained, no hurry.


Unless the OP has an in heat female living in their house, it's highly unlikely he's going to randomly encounter any in heat females. And if he does, it's not going to be impossible to hold him back.

My dog has been to numerous dog shows with in heat females all over the place. It's really not a big deal. It's not like they turn into cujo and snap their leash and run off.


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## sondra (May 19, 2015)

I got my beagle spayed at 6 months, and she's fine. But this was 2 years ago. There is new research suggesting certain cancers are linked to early spaying/neutering.
I will wait until my next dog is at least 1 year old. There is NO REASON to neuter a tiny puppy! You will be taking a huge risk because it may effect his health- either right away as his body is trying to grow and develop, or years down the line. 
For RESPONSIBLE owners, I see no problem in keeping dogs intact. It's how they are supposed to be. But for my girl, it was other people's dogs I didn't trust. And it still is. Not everyone is careful enough to keep their dog secure. So if you make the choice, PLEASE wait alot longer


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## GoldenWA (Apr 29, 2015)

Thanks everyone for all the information!

We definitely want to get him taken care of, and I do understand that a responsible owner shouldn't have an issue keeping a dog intact. When I look online I found countless studies showing that we can do this as early as 8 weeks (Yeah! Crazy!) but most seem to recommend waiting until 16+.

I don't see why we should rush anything, either. I was under the impression (from my limited research and vet recommendations) that taking care of this even at 6 months is absolutely fine. Sounds like I should keep researching and perhaps get a 3rd opinion and waiting a few more weeks before we do anything.

Again - I really appreciate all the input everyone!


*Also: what were you guys' thoughts on the recovery time? One vet said they would just hand the pup back in 45min, the other wants to watch him closely over night...IF you got it done, was your experience a quick 1 hour visit or an all day/overnight?*


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

For a dog that size, 6 months would probably be ok. But if you have no compelling reason why you can't wait longer, there's no reason to rush it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

When we've had dogs neutered, they did not stay over night. My rabbit stayed over night after his neuter, but rabbits are more sensitive and will stop eating sometimes, which requires care. So no, I wouldn't pay for a dog to stay over night unless there were complications that needed to be dealt with. For a routine neuter it's not necessary.

I would wait more than a few more weeks. Why are you interested in having it done so soon?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Hormones control growth, testicles control some hormones, it's obvious science and has lots of evidence.
> 
> How is neutering at 14 weeks ideal exactly?


Cats don't seem to have problems with growth when neutered young. And many female cats are sexually mature at 14 weeks, or close to it. One COULD wait longer to neuter a male cat but I stick to my 14-week recommendation for females. They get pregnant if they look out the window at a tomcat . 

I only mention it because a lot of people come onto the cat forum saying "I have dogs and I think you should wait a year before neutering and now my cat is whizzing all over the place help!" so I always feel the need to mention that cats really ought to be neutered young.


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## sondra (May 19, 2015)

Wait a few more MONTHS!!! Not weeks! Seriously. There is no reason to put a tiny baby through that


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Cats don't seem to have problems with growth when neutered young. And many female cats are sexually mature at 14 weeks, or close to it. One COULD wait longer to neuter a male cat but I stick to my 14-week recommendation for females. They get pregnant if they look out the window at a tomcat .
> 
> I only mention it because a lot of people come onto the cat forum saying "I have dogs and I think you should wait a year before neutering and now my cat is whizzing all over the place help!" so I always feel the need to mention that cats really ought to be neutered young.


Cats also have more severe behavioural issues compared to dogs when left intact.


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## GoldenWA (Apr 29, 2015)

Great thanks again everyone.

We were only looking to have it done sooner than later for convenience, since my wife and I can be home more often over the next week or so. After our google searches offered several articles mentioning that getting it done early is typically fine, we thought why not? That information, along with the vets rec's led us here. 

We're in no rush and I think after reading the overwhelming consensus on here so far - we'll wait quite a bit longer.

Here's some articles that we read that made us consider having it done sooner than later:

http://www.cesarsway.com/dog-rescue/spay-and-neuter/best-age-to-neuter-or-spay

http://www.petmd.com/dog/care/evr_determining_best_age_to_spay_or_neuter

http://dogtime.com/neutering-your-male.html


These are results for "when to neuter a puppy"...anyhow...you get the point. There seems to be lots of back and forth with many articles referencing that it's okay to do it earlier than later, etc.

Regardless, we're in no rush and just want to do what's right for the pup.


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## tiger89 (Oct 13, 2014)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> the vets are likely doing it for the money unfortunately.


In most cases younger smaller dogs cost less than older heavier dogs when it comes to spays and castrations. Too bad that some people have such a terrible opinion of vets.

But then again, why in the world would a veterinarian spay or castrate someone else's dog unless is was for money?


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

No offense intended but this should not be for the humans convenience, it's about the best time for the dog. Listen to the people here. I'm not saying not to listen to the vet but I believe, from research, that the two you've talked to, are wrong.

Regarding going home, handing the dog right over is too soon but I don't think he'd have to stay over night. My boy had a dental a couple months ago, I dropped him off at 8am and he wasn't ready til 6pm. They like to make sure the dogs come out of anesthesia fine, make sure they urinate....I prefer this type of scenario.


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## GoldenWA (Apr 29, 2015)

Thanks for your valued input Marie. No offense taken - I've spent enough time on the Internet to know better 

I suppose I'll quote myself...



GoldenWA said:


> ...Regardless, we're in no rush and just want to do what's right for the pup.



I like the second scenario you described - I thought spending the night may have been excessive.

Thanks again!


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

exactly, tenner bet they charge the same amount though. Not to mention there's less likely they'll go else where because it's rare to find a vet that will neuter so young. When it's older they can easily go anywhere.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> exactly, tenner bet they charge the same amount though. Not to mention there's less likely they'll go else where because it's rare to find a vet that will neuter so young. When it's older they can easily go anywhere.


I don't think it's rare for a vet in the US to recommend doing it so young. My vet won't, because he's an old farm vet with old habits and he uses the old anesthetics too. But my mom's neighbor got a new puppy and they had her spayed a week after they brought her home, at their vet's recommendation. It seems to be the way American vets are being trained now.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Willowy said:


> I don't think it's rare for a vet in the US to recommend doing it so young. My vet won't, because he's an old farm vet with old habits and he uses the old anesthetics too. But my mom's neighbor got a new puppy and they had her spayed a week after they brought her home, at their vet's recommendation. It seems to be the way American vets are being trained now.


This, and I think most people in the US are trained to ask for spay/neuter early. I remember taking Watson for his first appointment and asking for a microchip, and the vet said they usually just did it during the neuter, which makes me think most people are requesting neuters quite young. If you were going to wait a year (or even 6 months) you would probably get the microchip done sooner. I don't remember if the vet ever recommended an age, since at that point I said I was keeping Watson intact.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

pushing current fade procedures is about money....  hate it when a vet (*up-sells*) owners of a healthy dog... but give them a truly sick dog and they don't have a clue ... Know we have outstanding vets and techs on DF " when the shoe doesn't fit please don't wear it... "

early altering does change them.... both my Bengal males were altered at 12wks before leaving he breeder.. they are tiny compared to the generations that made them... My Clydes I had neutered at 2.5 years old. I wanted to wait until he was 4 or 5 but my local vet said he wouldn't do it as it's a pain in the Arse to do the procedure at an older age.. easier to do when the parts are smaller.... Johnny is all legs not as thick boned as Bob who was gelded when he was 6 years old.. so it does change their growth..


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

PatriciafromCO said:


> early altering does change them.... both my Bengal males were altered at 12wks before leaving he breeder.. they are tiny compared to the generations that made them...


With that particular circumstance I think it has more to do with their distance from their wild heritage, the later generations do get smaller. . .I have 2 male cats who were fully mature toms before neutering (strays), and they're actually smaller than the early neutered boys, but cobbier, thicker, especially around the neck/jaws. Early neutering does seem to make cats a bit leggier maybe, but not smaller altogether, IME.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Pediatric neuter is a routine procedure and it's not a problem for most dogs, so there's really no reason to go all melodramatic on someone or their vet if they do choose to get their pup altered young for some reason. 

That said, if possible I'd wait until a male dog was full-grown or close to it, for the benefit of the joints and to reduce the risk of certain cancers, particularly in Goldens, which have problems with both.

I'm skeptical, though, that the increased incidence of orthopedic problems in altered dogs isn't due more to fat than to an inherent problem with altering, as it requires a little more work to keep an altered dog fit.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Willowy said:


> With that particular circumstance I think it has more to do with their distance from their wild heritage, the later generations do get smaller. . .I have 2 male cats who were fully mature toms before neutering (strays), and they're actually smaller than the early neutered boys, but cobbier, thicker, especially around the neck/jaws. Early neutering does seem to make cats a bit leggier maybe, but not smaller altogether, IME.


when I picked up Aslan (the second cat from the same breeder) I got to see Azamets full grown intact brother she kept for her breeding program.. to say if doesn't change them is not exactly true.. It's a choice to accept having it done, not regret or disappointment on my part for accepting the breeders choice.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

Our vet recommended to wait until the dog is finished growing before neutering because it can affect his growth. In a large breed that's usually around a year and a half old. Kane is almost 9 months old now. We had planned to wait as long as we could before getting it done (depending on his behaviour, etc.), but he was just banned from daycare last week because he was getting "too friendly". Now our plan is to wait a few more months and probably get him neutered after he turns one.

Honestly I've seen no behaviour changes in him at home at all because he's intact.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> This, and I think most people in the US are trained to ask for spay/neuter early. I remember taking Watson for his first appointment and asking for a microchip, and the vet said they usually just did it during the neuter, which makes me think most people are requesting neuters quite young. If you were going to wait a year (or even 6 months) you would probably get the microchip done sooner. I don't remember if the vet ever recommended an age, since at that point I said I was keeping Watson intact.


My vet is really pushy about speuter. I had the same thing happen when I took Watson to get chipped. "We usually wait for the neuter" And then again when I needed to buy his licence. "We usually wait for the neuter, because it's cheaper." Uggh. Stop.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

parus said:


> I'm skeptical, though, that the increased incidence of orthopedic problems in altered dogs isn't due more to fat than to an inherent problem with altering, as it requires a little more work to keep an altered dog fit.


My personal suspicion is that after this has been better studied, growth plate closure will be the or an important factor.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

chimunga said:


> My vet is really pushy about speuter. I had the same thing happen when I took Watson to get chipped. "We usually wait for the neuter" And then again when I needed to buy his licence. "We usually wait for the neuter, because it's cheaper." Uggh. Stop.


It's funny too, because I know my vet's office works with a couple local breeders, and were totally supportive when I said I was keeping him intact for possible breeding purposes. I think it's just a reflex and they assume everyone will speuter right away, because that's usually how it works.

Actually, on this same subject, my friends have two mixes from the same breeder (sharpei x pug and sharpei x boston terrier) and they were both neutered at 8 weeks before coming home, by the breeder's husband who is a vet. Makes me cringe a bit, but my friends thought it was a great deal. They just assumed, like many people do, that there's no issue with doing it early so might as well do it as early as possible. And I at least give the breeders some credit for not wanting to send intact puppies out into the world to have more litters.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

I can't say anything about the medical aspect of it, but my dog is almost a year old, and we haven't had any behavioral problems related to him being intact. He marks outside, and will occasionally (very rarely) try to mount a smaller dog at the dog park. But that's about it.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

^^The thing is, for many if not most dogs there really ISN'T an issue with doing it early without underlying genetic predispositions to, say, cancer. Pediatric spay/neuter has been common practice in shelters since the late 1990s/early 2000s and part of the reason this is still such a contentious issue is that it's not a slam-dunk risk across the board. 

Personally for what I want to do with my dogs, it's not something I want to do. For a mixed breed shelter dog I wasn't going to do any sports with, I probably wouldn't have much of a preference either way.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

My opinion? 

Why take the risk? Every article I've ever read that is pro pediatric spay/neuter are related to rescue and anti breeding organizations. AKA, I feel they are biased and not including the possible risks. There are articles that talk about the possible risks of neutering so young and I would give them a read as well. I think the answer lies somewhere in-between horrible and perfectly fine. I think there is risk and that risk depends on your breed of dog and the things you want to do with them. 

Still.. there is no reason to rush into it now. What's the point? Why possibly up the risk of growth issues and such? Unless you truly don't believe you can keep your dog from breeding another dog (that's not even a problem yet!).. just.. wait. Even if you can only wait until 6-8 mo.. better than still being a baby..


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> It's funny too, because I know my vet's office works with a couple local breeders, and were totally supportive when I said I was keeping him intact for possible breeding purposes. I think it's just a reflex and they assume everyone will speuter right away, because that's usually how it works.
> 
> Actually, on this same subject, my friends have two mixes from the same breeder (sharpei x pug and sharpei x boston terrier) and they were both neutered at 8 weeks before coming home, by the breeder's husband who is a vet. Makes me cringe a bit, but my friends thought it was a great deal. They just assumed, like many people do, that there's no issue with doing it early so might as well do it as early as possible. And I at least give the breeders some credit for not wanting to send intact puppies out into the world to have more litters.


I don't actually mind. If I were a vet, I'm automatically going to assume that every person who owns a dog is irresponsible until proven otherwise. And if vets didn't push speuter, we would have more of a population problem than we do now. 

And really, there isn't the science behind not doing it. Yes, it has been said that it can cause development and bone issues. I read the study on the Rottweilers, and I think it boils down to: Testosterone helps regulate bone growth, and helps signal when bones need to stop growing while in adolescence. So neutering early can cause a dogs bones to grow more than they were really supposed to, although not by much. But even a little bit can cause structural problems. At least that's how I understood it. 

Corgis are small dogs that tend to grow like large dogs, so I'm waiting to be safe. It's not hurting anything. 

But in reality, people have been spaying/neutering their dogs for the past 100 years with zero problem. So if you want to neuter your dog at 14 weeks, it's not a death sentence. 99/100 he'll be just fine and have no issues resulting from an early neuter. If you wait to neuter him, he'll probably get ball cancer, or something equally ridiculous. (Joking, he'll be fine either way)


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

The US are hardly someone to model animal welfare practices on are they?
I do not know a single person or vet in the UK who recommends neutering BEFORE 6 months or after their first season.
The only reason I can see people in the US pushing this is because of the number of kill shelters and population problem is way larger than places like the UK. I don't think I've seen a stray dog in 10 years?

I think the best course of action is just to educate and let people make their own decision, early neutering is always going to be a problem because vets will always push it and so will people who think it fixes behavioral problems (It doesn't, I had a guy ask me when I was neutering my dog while his neutered dog was humping mine?). I'll keep telling people the benefits AND negatives of keeping intact and let them make their own choice, I think that's the best I can do.


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> This, and I think most people in the US are trained to ask for spay/neuter early. I remember taking Watson for his first appointment and asking for a microchip, and the vet said they usually just did it during the neuter, which makes me think most people are requesting neuters quite young. If you were going to wait a year (or even 6 months) you would probably get the microchip done sooner. I don't remember if the vet ever recommended an age, since at that point I said I was keeping Watson intact.


Interesting. We're in Southern California, and our vet recommended waiting until 1 year and also waiting for the microchip to be done during the neuter since the needle is apparently very large?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

hounddawg said:


> Interesting. We're in Southern California, and our vet recommended waiting until 1 year and also waiting for the microchip to be done during the neuter since the needle is apparently very large?


It's not that big. I had it done when Watson was maybe 4 months old or something and having some of his hair clippered off was way more traumatic than the actual needle. They used some local anesthetic on the injection site and he didn't even feel it.


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## chimunga (Aug 29, 2014)

hounddawg said:


> Interesting. We're in Southern California, and our vet recommended waiting until 1 year and also waiting for the microchip to be done during the neuter since the needle is apparently very large?


They said that to me too. But that was when Watson was 8 lbs lol. Watson got his done at like 5 months, and he didn't even blink.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> The only reason I can see people in the US pushing this is because of the number of kill shelters and population problem is way larger than places like the UK. I don't think I've seen a stray dog in 10 years?


UK shelters kill just as many animals as US shelters do (by percentage of intake, and proportionate to human population). Get a shelter census from your local shelter or look up RSPCA stats if you want to see it for yourself. Most places do a good job of keeping stray dogs off the streets but that doesn't mean anything good happens to them once they're off the streets.

I had my dogs microchipped at a Humane Society event, and they barely noticed the needle. What really annoyed them is that the shelter workers wrapped their leashes around their noses as a muzzle. They hated that part .


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## hounddawg (Jan 10, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> It's not that big. I had it done when Watson was maybe 4 months old or something and having some of his hair clippered off was way more traumatic than the actual needle. They used some local anesthetic on the injection site and he didn't even feel it.





chimunga said:


> They said that to me too. But that was when Watson was 8 lbs lol. Watson got his done at like 5 months, and he didn't even blink.


Sounds like it'd be worse for me than him lol At this point I'm just waiting for the neuter in a few weeks I guess!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

hounddawg said:


> Interesting. We're in Southern California, and our vet recommended waiting until 1 year and also waiting for the microchip to be done during the neuter since the needle is apparently very large?


Roxie had hers done with no sedation at all which was a feat let me tell you... she has to be muzzled and sedated for vet visits if that gives you an idea.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> I'm skeptical, though, that the increased incidence of orthopedic problems in altered dogs isn't due more to fat than to an inherent problem with altering, as it requires a little more work to keep an altered dog fit.


Call me a skeptic as well..... How come at agility trials, herding trials.... .etc..... the dog that blows out a CCL is always the the neutered male.....





sassafras said:


> My personal suspicion is that after this has been better studied, growth plate closure will be the or an important factor.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

chimunga said:


> I can't say anything about the medical aspect of it, but my dog is almost a year old, and we haven't had any behavioral problems related to him being intact. He marks outside, and will occasionally (very rarely) try to mount a smaller dog at the dog park. But that's about it.


Unless you have your dog.... Around another intact male WITH a bitch in heat.... You are not likely to have any behavior issues....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

chimunga said:


> They said that to me too. But that was when Watson was 8 lbs lol. Watson got his done at like 5 months, and he didn't even blink.


I chipped the Pyro Man on Monday.... Myself... the only reason I waited was that I needed someone to hold him and my wife has a needle thing....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Dogs do NOT mature....... Nor are they finish growing and developing.... Nearly as quickly as most folks think they they do... Even smaller and medium breeds........

Merlin at two years and two weeks old....










And a movement shot two weeks before...









Merlin at about 31 months......










Merlin two month shy of his fourth birthday....41 months...









He got NO taller.... No longer.... from two to four..... But his muscle mass.... His bone.... his width of skull.... His depth of chest.... ALL changed.....


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

12-18 months for boys, and yes, I do th ink it makes them better pets, especially when you have multiples. 

After first heat for females, and then exactly 12 weeks after first day of discharge, when hormones are at their lowest and uterus is smallest for less complications. 

Try not to read so much online... I got caught up in that with my last male and worried myself sick over all t he supposed consequences of neutering... I'm not going to worry about that, since th ere are so many other variables- correlation is not causation! He is much less horny, pardon the expression, because by 19 months, all he could do was shove his nose up my spayed girls' rears, chomp and drool and hump, and sure, it could be a training issue, but those hormones send STRONG signals to the brain to breed, breed, breed. 

Neutered at maturity, much better pets.


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

fourdogs said:


> 12-18 months for boys, and yes, I do th ink it makes them better pets, especially when you have multiples.
> 
> After first heat for females, and then exactly 12 weeks after first day of discharge, when hormones are at their lowest and uterus is smallest for less complications.
> 
> ...


12-18 months doesn't cover the whole maturity thing, Vizslas are mature around 24 months and im sure larger dogs are even later.
After first season DEFINITELY doesn't cover that kind of range. I know bitches who've had their season at 6 months and some at over 18 months... Why does it matter about season? Surely again it's when they're mature if you're going to do it.

Personally unless my dog has health issues connected to his testicles I won't be neutering because there's no need to in my opinion. I can understand in multiple dog house holds since that's asking for a litter. I'm happy to CC my dog to not hump which is usually an over excitement behavior and I've always got him on leash around unknown dogs so there's no way of him reproduce accidentally. I think after maturity it's down to whether you're willing to be responsible with your dog or not.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

fourdogs said:


> 12-18 months for boys, and yes, I do th ink it makes them better pets, especially when you have multiples.
> 
> After first heat for females, and then exactly 12 weeks after first day of discharge, when hormones are at their lowest and uterus is smallest for less complications.
> 
> ...


12-18 months for boys? Even a medium sized dog is not physically mature at 18 months. 
Reference the photos above...


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

For a pet I think it becomes a matter of more of being able to keep one sterile than maturity to be reached. If you can not keep your teenager from getting pregnant than maybe having her spayed would be the best. I know we are talking boys and that is always easier for a parent to control the pregnancy issue. Boys as of yet can not get pregnant. I have adopted pedi spay/neuter dogs and dog neutered late in life, I as a pet parent did not see that much difference that I go no way am I ever going to neuter another dog again. I like the look of that big fat cheeks Tom cats get but no way would I keep a male cat intact just for that look. My Doberman has outlived his brother and sister who were left intact for breeding purposes. The female died of mammary cancer, the male I forgot now just what. The dogs dad died of complications from Lepto before his ninth birthday and he was intact. I think that everyone has to look at their own situation and do what is best for them.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

I've seen this argued over so many times on this forum. This is my preference for my pet dogs. My 5 yr old PWD female was spayed exactly as I stated, and went on to mature in depth and width of chest, and bone quite well. She is very balanced and lovely to look at. 

My 2 ½ yr old mini poodle male was neutered at 19 months after I could not stand his nose up everyone's rears constantly, mouth chomping and drooling, sniffing and licking pee and drooling, humping and pestering and whining and panting and pacing. It's not something I'm willing to put up with and he didn't seem like a happy dog, to be honest! But again, my personal opinion here. He has gone on to mature in depth of chest, lovely rib spring (even intact poodles have issues with being slab sided vs rounded rib spring). He has a masculine head, even for a poodle with froofy hair, he looks like a boy. 
As an aside, he stopped all the horny behavior, and is a joyful and active dog. He also was able to stop his worrying about "his bitches" at meal time and actually eats instead of picking and being way too skinny. 

This is what I am comfortable with, and I am perfectly ok with the perameters I've set for my pet dogs. This is also after several years of showing, titling, health testing, and breeding dogs.

I'm currently dog sitting an intact adult male. I have three spayed bitches and one neutered male. He is constantly nose up the rear of all three girls. If he's not doing that, he's sniffing where they peed and then chomping and drooling and then pees all over everything, then starts courting behavior of ear licking, and tries to go right to humping. This is an un pedigreed bulldog with multiple health issues whose owner keeps him intact because "do you know how much money is in those balls???" Yes, sure, how many people are flocking to you with thier females? Which titles and health tests has he had? I didn't think so! He is having a nice time having his own potty breaks by himself and stays in an expen indoors because he will not leave my girls alone. One is quite old and the other has had quite enough and I can't say as I blame her. Yes, yes, training blah blah blah, certainly couldn't be those testicles pumping out hormones telling him to breed! 
End of this discussion for me. OP asked opinions and this is mine.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

fourdogs said:


> I've seen this argued over so many times on this forum. This is my preference for my pet dogs. My 5 yr old PWD female was spayed exactly as I stated, and went on to mature in depth and width of chest, and bone quite well. She is very balanced and lovely to look at.
> 
> My 2 ½ yr old mini poodle male was neutered at 19 months after I could not stand his nose up everyone's rears constantly, mouth chomping and drooling, sniffing and licking pee and drooling, humping and pestering and whining and panting and pacing. It's not something I'm willing to put up with and he didn't seem like a happy dog, to be honest! But again, my personal opinion here. He has gone on to mature in depth of chest, lovely rib spring (even intact poodles have issues with being slab sided vs rounded rib spring). He has a masculine head, even for a poodle with froofy hair, he looks like a boy.
> As an aside, he stopped all the horny behavior, and is a joyful and active dog. He also was able to stop his worrying about "his bitches" at meal time and actually eats instead of picking and being way too skinny.
> ...


LOL Okay...


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## gingerwrinklepup (May 19, 2015)

fourdogs said:


> I've seen this argued over so many times on this forum. This is my preference for my pet dogs. My 5 yr old PWD female was spayed exactly as I stated, and went on to mature in depth and width of chest, and bone quite well. She is very balanced and lovely to look at.
> 
> My 2 ½ yr old mini poodle male was neutered at 19 months after I could not stand his nose up everyone's rears constantly, mouth chomping and drooling, sniffing and licking pee and drooling, humping and pestering and whining and panting and pacing. It's not something I'm willing to put up with and he didn't seem like a happy dog, to be honest! But again, my personal opinion here. He has gone on to mature in depth of chest, lovely rib spring (even intact poodles have issues with being slab sided vs rounded rib spring). He has a masculine head, even for a poodle with froofy hair, he looks like a boy.
> As an aside, he stopped all the horny behavior, and is a joyful and active dog. He also was able to stop his worrying about "his bitches" at meal time and actually eats instead of picking and being way too skinny.
> ...


Ahhh, a lovely pet peeve of mine, someone who comes onto a discussion board, states their bias opinion and then says don't talk to me about it again, sounds like I can't be wrong mentality to me.

It's funny I have an entire dog who regularly meets other entire dogs and the only issues I've had is management issues (dogs who love to walk up to other dogs and then growl ugh). Infact 90% of the dogs I meet at Viz meetings I go to are intact. We do meet entire bitches too but they're never in season because it's the culture here to restrict them to safe areas when in season. My dog does mount other dogs from time to time but it's again down to over excitement of playing and it's usually neutered males actually (Heard they "smell" like entire bitches but unsure if this is a myth.).

You're entitled to your opinion ofcourse but it seems like youre basing your opinion on your past experiences and they seem a little extreme to me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Our bodies are always changing. . .does that mean we're never mature?  I don't know if a dog filling out some later in life means he wasn't mature before that. Meh. Everyone has to decide for themselves, just make sure he can't get anyone pregnant.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

gingerwrinklepup said:


> Ahhh, a lovely pet peeve of mine, someone who comes onto a discussion board, states their bias opinion and then says don't talk to me about it again, sounds like I can't be wrong mentality to me.
> 
> It's funny I have an entire dog who regularly meets other entire dogs and the only issues I've had is management issues (dogs who love to walk up to other dogs and then growl ugh). Infact 90% of the dogs I meet at Viz meetings I go to are intact. We do meet entire bitches too but they're never in season because it's the culture here to restrict them to safe areas when in season. My dog does mount other dogs from time to time but it's again down to over excitement of playing and it's usually neutered males actually (Heard they "smell" like entire bitches but unsure if this is a myth.).
> 
> You're entitled to your opinion ofcourse but it seems like youre basing your opinion on your past experiences and they seem a little extreme to me.


What is especially entertaining is that none of the behaviors described are in any way testosterone driven. The poster with four dogs and is boarding the bull dog does not have an intact bitch in the house. Much less an intact bitch in heat. Nothing at all to trigger sexual drive.

What she does have is four dogs then brings in a strange dog. All the butt sniffing, pestering, humping, pacing etc. Is social and or anxiety related..... Nothing to do with the fact the dog has its testicles.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

In an ideal world, no one would speuter their pets or at least hold off till they were 2-3 years. Per shelter agreement ours had to be fixed by 6 months.

It just feels like sometimes the posts get alarmist (evil owners speuter young!!) lol

And yeah, pediatric speuters exist to take responsibility off owners. You can't contribute to a stray population if your owner dumps you because you're sterile.

I saw way too many dogs dumped in my ditch growing up (though at the time I was just delighted at free puppy) so I get where the mindset comes from.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't have issues with humping in my dogs (I've got a female who will when she gets agitated but can be redirected) that is a training issue. However I have only seen the drooling and chuffing thing in intact males. I find it annoying, can't say if it is annoying enough to neuter over but it is annoying. There are quite a few intact male dogs that run our neighborhood (it is easy to tell what with them having testicles and all). I am hearing the argument that these behaviors have nothing to do with testosterone because fourdogs' females are spayed but these boys chase down my spayed females, sniff their urine, get up in their "business", drool and chuff, and try to mount them. There are some neutered boys and some females running the neighborhood (I have some bad pet owners for neighbors) none of them do these things. A couple of the females do pick fights though, they are pretty aggressive actually, can't say it is an improvement. 

I will spay my females around 1year of age after the first heat. I have rescue dogs, they are not showing, I am not planning to breed. If I had a large breed female I would wait longer but I am too concerned about pyo and mammary cancer to wait longer with my females. After nearly losing my kitten to pyo at under 1year I'm just not willing to risk it. Freyja was 15months, had not grown in 9months. With my males it sort of depends on where they come from. Lad will be at least 2 and I will just go from there.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I always go back to this concerning the status of overpopulation.

http://spanieljournal.com/33lbaughan.html

even here they can't keep their new Million dollar facilities afloat for the lack of having animals to sell.. lots of interstate transfers of dogs.. That is how I got my fosters they shipped them in from several states away for not having any local... Then there is save Pipper to expose how found pets are quickly shipped out of state so the owners will not find them to get them back . Due to micro chipping people are getting notified their animals are all the way across the country more and more..


The cash cow on rescue is hitting hard times for not enough animals to go around..


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

I would think distribution is the larger problem, right? I mean the southern US general has an abundance of strays (also rural areas). Education is the best long term route, but I get the reason for sterilization as the go-to.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm not sure why anyone would think that a dog is less deserving of a home because of where they come from :/. If some places can take dogs from places that do have a population problem, that seems pretty ideal to me. 

And LOL at that article. That she says there's no overpopulation of CATS makes me not take her seriously about anything. In most places you can't give away kittens. There is definitely no shortage.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CrimsonAccent said:


> I would think distribution is the larger problem, right? I mean the southern US general has an abundance of strays (also rural areas). Education is the best long term route, but I get the reason for sterilization as the go-to.


Not nearly as MUCH as the rescue crowd will have you think..

At least in the Southeast......

Plus we import about a half million dogs into the US each year...


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

Is there a map of stray populations? Or any solid numbers on distribution? (Not doubting you, just looking for some reading).


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Tx has a pretty high stray population (or whatever you want to call it as the shelter population is obviously not all stray dogs, owner surrenders make up a good portion as well, two of mine were owner surrenders). None of the local shelters are ever low on dogs or cats available for adoption, many are at a constant state of capacity or over capacity. Quite a few in larger urban areas are struggling to work their way back from some truly startling euthanasia rates a few years ago.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

it makes me wonder if they actual strays, or local puppy mill dumps. I would never feel that every dog no matter were they from doesn't deserve a home.. "of course every animal should have a good home. I am just against mis information used for the wrong reasons. not only for people to make choices that do/can have consequences, but also for soliciting money. These million dollar facilities they built were for the human luxury to work there, could of been used better for the animals.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

PatriciafromCO said:


> it makes me wonder if they actual strays, or local puppy mill dumps. I would never feel that every dog no matter were they from doesn't deserve a home.. "of course every animal should have a good home. I am just against mis information used for the wrong reasons. not only for people to make choices that do/can have consequences, but also for soliciting money. These million dollar facilities they built were for the human luxury to work there, could of been used better for the animals.


Here? The population is a lot of mixes and I don't mean the high demand designer variety. We do get those too but mostly you see lots of bully breeds, obviously BYB labs (and there are so many Back yard breeders here), cattle dogs, border collies, Aussies, and mixes of all of those dogs in such wide variety that you can't really guess what the dog really is. The dogs are mostly the result of back yard breeders who over breed, sell their puppies to anyone who has the money and don't care what happens after, owners who just want a cute puppy but don't give much thought to what that puppy will grow up to be and a lot of owners who don't really consider keeping their dogs in their yards. The pet culture here is just different. I know I've posted about the pack of small dogs running my neighborhood. I can't tell you how many random litters of puppies have been born near me, not because they were planned but because the female got loose and "oh well". Oops litters are just the norm here, I could get a free puppy any day of the week (and then some). Can't tell you how many times I've been contacted to take in abandoned puppies because some one didn't bother having their female dog spayed and let her roam or just left her in the yard. Our biggest problem really is an irresponsible owner problem.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I am sorry but as a person who worked the front line in a high kill shelter we had enough strays we did not have to go 'shopping' for cats and dogs from other places. Come summer time we just did not have enough room. Some days you spent your entire 8 hour shift in the killing room. Cats did not have a stray period and dogs did have a hold for so many days before they became property of the county. Today there are so many shelters ranging from the county run shelters to the couple of people running a shelter from their home. County shelters usually have ordinances and by-laws that must be followed. Private shelters do not. We had to go to class and be graduates and hold a license to be able to euth an animal. One lady totally lost it after graduating from this class. I am glad her daughter found her in time. It is not an easy peasy job to do. After awhile you realize that even with the good pay and bennies it is not worth it. I have been stalked, threatened and even had death threats against me. All for because they blamed me for their dogs death. Once a court ordered a dog to be euthed due to aggressive behavior and even though I was not the one who did the deed we all got threats by the family. One thing I did learn when I was out on the road is that people just do not get it at times. There would be a welfare check on a dog, go talk to the people and yep they were going to do this and this for the dog. Months would go by and you were doing another welfare check on a dog at a different address. Same family, same dog, different address. 

According to petfinder there are close to 300 thousand animals looking for homes in the Milwaukee area. I do not see why they would need to go anywhere to get other animals. I do know when like Katrina happened a lot of dogs and cats were shipped to other parts of the US to take the burden off of the local shelters. I also know that some private shelters will go to other parts of the country because it is easier for them to pull dogs from these shelters and find them homes elsewhere. Some places have more of a certain type of dog that is in high demand elsewhere. I do not have a problem with that. For example in Wisconsin, if the shelters seem to only have the bigger bully mixes and Texas shelters have an over abundance of Chihuahua type dogs to have a private shelter go pull them from Texas to adopt in Wisconsin seems to me no big deal. 

The biggest problem with tracking any numbers of strays and such is there is no central database to log into and record these numbers. Till that time comes it will always be a quessitimate.


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## dsanchez14 (May 31, 2015)

There has been NO peer reviewed studies, as far as I am aware, that show definitely that early neutering is bad. It is standard practice in most shelters, and those dogs turn out fine. However defined early neutering is the 8-12 week mark. Personally I like 5-7 months. If you are used to intact dogs and can handle the hormone responses, older is fine, but I think for your average pet owner, neutering before they start the puberty battle is better, especially for new pet owners. The one main con to later neutering (10 months or older) is that the recovery period and bruising/scrotal swelling is worse because it is that much more developed. It isn't a huge thing, but they are definitely more sore afterwards for a longer period.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

puberty battle (to me) is a person suddenly realizing your foundation puppy training didn't keep up with the puppy growing towards adulthood...


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