# Why is walking ahead considered dominant?



## MDW4life (Nov 26, 2013)

I am trying to understand why a dog that walks in front is dominant? I am confused about the sense of control here.

How is the dog trying to empower me if he or she trots ahead?

Why would the dog be trying to control me if it is sniffing or pooping?

Thanks

Me


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

First, dominance between humans and dogs doesn't exist. The original theory was based on flawed research and incorrect assumptions. Someone (Crantastic and / or HollowHeaven, I believe) has a set of links that will explain it. 

I think that people who believe in dog-human dominance claim that dogs walking ahead or leading the walk are dominant because the leader/alpha should lead the pack and decide where to go. If the dog is ahead of the human and choosing the path, the dog is in charge or dominant. It's the same idea behind walking through doors first or sitting on the highest perch or eating before the dog. The person / dog who enters a room first or sits above the others or eats first is dominant. Those who believe in dominance theory interpret everything a dog does as either trying to dominate the human or submitting to the human. I can't imagine it's a very pleasant way to interact with your dog.

According to dominance theory, the dog _isn't_ trying to empower you by walking ahead; the dog is trying to empower him/herself. It's BS.

Is a trainer telling you this stuff? If so, I'd suggest finding a different trainer. Certification Council for Professional Dog Trainers and Pet Professional Guild would be good places to look.

If a friend is telling you this stuff, just smile and ignore the advice.

If you're wondering how to manage your dog, this is a nice article: Should You Always Eat Before Your Dog?; you decide what is important and train for those behaviors. Another, more structured, framework would be something like Say Please or Learn to Earn Program: Developing Leadership in Humans and Impulse Control in Dogs and Learn to Earn Program: Implementing the Program.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

cuz da WEADER muss be IN FRNT 2 b able 2 charge ahead n take charge uv da pakkkkk.


Lol.

I myself wonder where people got this stuff.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

HollowHeaven said:


> cuz da WEADER muss be IN FRNT 2 b able 2 charge ahead n take charge uv da pakkkkk.
> 
> 
> Lol.
> ...


Why can't I be brief and witty? Instead, I'm long-winded and dull. humpf


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## MDW4life (Nov 26, 2013)

cookieface said:


> First, dominance between humans and dogs doesn't exist. The original theory was based on flawed research and incorrect assumptions. Someone (Crantastic and / or HollowHeaven, I believe) has a set of links that will explain it.
> 
> I think that people who believe in dog-human dominance claim that dogs walking ahead or leading the walk are dominant because the leader/alpha should lead the pack and decide where to go. If the dog is ahead of the human and choosing the path, the dog is in charge or dominant. It's the same idea behind walking through doors first or sitting on the highest perch or eating before the dog. The person / dog who enters a room first or sits above the others or eats first is dominant. Those who believe in dominance theory interpret everything a dog does as either trying to dominate the human or submitting to the human. I can't imagine it's a very pleasant way to interact with your dog.
> 
> ...


I'm going to check out the articles

But, the definition of *dominance*_the power and influence over others_

And the definition of *empower* _give someone the authority or power to do something_

Unless the dog has multiple personality disorder I don't think it's delligating to itself power over human.

Any who

I agree with you about the pleasantries of allowing a pup to be a pup being abolished due to the outdated theory of dominance. There is plenty of proof on conditioning thanks to Skinner and Pavlov, they inadvertently paved the way for modern behaviorists as well as psychologists to understand the process of positive and negative reinforcement.

Nobody per say is telling me I must dominate my dog and every behavior it exhibits means it is trying to dominate me, I have in my past. If it has happened recently it wasn't effective enough to be registered in my working memory.

I am really just trying to isolate why, so I can understand. I am very simple, and for me to have an active comprehension, reasoning kind of has to be broken up in baby steps.

Like

1) people that control their dog 100 percent of the time on a walk effects the dog in this way.
2) people that don't allow their dog to sniff effects the dog this way.

Compared to if I let my dog be a dog trot at a natural pace for the dog effects it this way.

1)
2)

So forth and so on.

Thanks

Me


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## MDW4life (Nov 26, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Why can't I be brief and witty? Instead, I'm long-winded and dull. humpf


Me too lol


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## MDW4life (Nov 26, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> cuz da WEADER muss be IN FRNT 2 b able 2 charge ahead n take charge uv da pakkkkk.
> 
> 
> Lol.
> ...



You're silly


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

MDW4life said:


> I'm going to check out the articles
> 
> But, the definition of *dominance*_the power and influence over others_
> 
> And the definition of *empower* _give someone the authority or power to do something_


Ignoring the fact that dominance theory isn't a think, those definitions completely support what everyone else is saying - that under pop-culture dominance theory, a dog walking in front of its owner is asserting its *dominance* over a human...and thus by definition NOT trying to *empower* its owner... because then the dog wouldn't be dominant (because the owner would have the power). Self-empowerment is a real thing, by the way; although it would probably apply to dogs as much as "empowerment" applies to dogs...which it doesn't really. I don't think you can say that dogs hand over power to people in the way you're defining, so much as dogs learn to respect the authority of humans because otherwise the dog won't get what they want.

A dog walking in front on a leash is just a dog walking in front on a leash. It doesn't have any other real significance (except perhaps lack of training, if the owner doesn't want the dog in front but the dog is anyway).


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

MDW4life said:


> I am trying to understand why a dog that walks in front is dominant? I am confused about the sense of control here.
> 
> *How is the dog trying to empower me if he or she trots ahead?*
> 
> ...





MDW4life said:


> I'm going to check out the articles
> 
> But, the definition of *dominance*_the power and influence over others_
> 
> ...


Just to address the highlighted comments: those who believe in dominance construct (construct is likely a better word than theory in this case) believe that dogs who walk ahead are the dominant one in the relationship. They have the power and control, and gain/demonstrate that power and control by walking in the lead. To those who believe in dominance construct walking in the lead is empowering _to the person in the lead_. I don't really think dogs have a concept of empowerment, but in humans, self-empowerment is a real thing (no multiple personalities needed).

The problem with trying to explain things with universal truths is that universal truths generally don't exist - especially in dog training. Some dogs may cope just fine with every move being controlled. Some dogs will shut down and not respond to _anything_ unless given permission. Many dogs are somewhere between the two extremes. 

So, you could completely control your dog on a walk and he might
a) be just fine and still enjoy getting out
b) refuse to move until you say "go"
c) walk without enthusiasm or joy
d) do any number of other things

A person could not control his dog at all on a walk and the results may be
a) dog runs into the street
b) dog trips owner 
c) dog leads owner through the woods / a pond / into someone's back yard
d) any number of other things

Personally, I think a good mix of the two is valuable. Sniffing and exploring the environment is mentally stimulating for the dog. Allowing the dog to walk at a roughly natural pace is physically stimulating to a certain extent. Training while you walk is also mentally stimulating and has the advantage of proofing behaviors in a variety of contexts.

Part of it, too, is how a behavior is taught. If the dog is reinforced for staying at your side, he'll likely be happy to walk beside you. If your dog is subject to a shock or collar correction each time he moves out of position, he'll likely walk beside you but be stressed at the idea of being punished as any moment. (I'm choosing not to discuss using P+ / R- as a proofing method to maintain simplicity).

I think I can speak for most folks here and say they prefer not to control their dogs' every move because they want the dog to offer behaviors (i.e., try different things to see what gets reinforced). I'll also take the liberty to say that most folks here figure out what works for them rather than follow arbitrary rules about dog-human relationships. I want my dog to wait until released at the door for safety, but she walks out first so I can close the door. I like her to walk ahead of me (unless we're actively practicing heel) so I know where her nose is. Some people don't allow their dogs on the bed because it interferes with their sleep.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

cookieface said:


> Why can't I be brief and witty? Instead, I'm long-winded and dull. humpf


Because someone will come through here and take that literally.
Someone must be truly informative and not just a jackwagon


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MDW4life said:


> I am trying to understand why a dog that walks in front is dominant? I am confused about the sense of control here.
> 
> How is the dog trying to empower me if he or she trots ahead?
> 
> Why would the dog be trying to control me if it is sniffing or pooping?


Funny, isn't it.

Wally often looks back at me when he's ahead to see where I'm going. If I change direction (this is off leash) then he'll move in the direction I'm going in - like a formation.

If he's "taking charge" then he wouldn't adjust to me or even look to me for direction. 

I've read that the leader is in the middle of the pack as that's the position with the most awareness of the pack and the environment. The others can relate their position to the middle more easily. Not sure how true that is, but looking at Wally and how he tends to "orbit" around me off leash, there might be some merit to the concept.


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## MDW4life (Nov 26, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Just to address the highlighted comments: those who believe in dominance construct (construct is likely a better word than theory in this case) believe that dogs who walk ahead are the dominant one in the relationship. They have the power and control, and gain/demonstrate that power and control by walking in the lead. To those who believe in dominance construct walking in the lead is empowering _to the person in the lead_. I don't really think dogs have a concept of empowerment, but in humans, self-empowerment is a real thing (no multiple personalities needed).
> 
> The problem with trying to explain things with universal truths is that universal truths generally don't exist - especially in dog training. Some dogs may cope just fine with every move being controlled. Some dogs will shut down and not respond to _anything_ unless given permission. Many dogs are somewhere between the two extremes.
> 
> ...



You are awesome  I think you broke it down really well for this dumb dumb. Thank you for taking time out of life to banter with me. I haven't checked out those articles but I promise I will!!

Thanks
Me


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## allymax (Nov 26, 2013)

I really appreciate this thread... because, I was very influenced by 2 dog training manuals I have, and was getting frustrated with my dog Joyful because she loves to sniff and lead. It was such a drag to try to correct her, even her favorite treats didn't interest her as much as the path ahead of us (she is part beagle). I do know that right from the first day she came into this house, she has been a wonderful companion and part of our pack, and I don't think she is trying to be dominant over any of us (especially not our 18 year old tabby-cat!)


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