# Another Dog-Deposit Question



## jim600 (Mar 31, 2013)

Hello,

I know this has been discussed before but here is my situation: Never owning or experiencing owning a dog, I visited a breeder to buy a puppy Boston Terrier for our son. The breeder had two puppies for sale, one brown and the other black. The breeder said he would need a deposit to hold one of them for us to pick up the next weekend. I asked the breeder before sending the deposit whether both puppies were still available and she just never replied to that question. He just asked when she would receive my deposit. So I sent $300 by PayPal with the note: "Deposit for either the black or brown Boston Terrirer". Moments after processing my deposit, he wrote that the black one was already sold. That's the one we really wanted.

But something else happened. Following (as in, within 1 hour) my visit with the breeder, I had an asthmatic attack. I scheduled an appointment with my doctor. Two days later, the doctor advised me that I will need medication. When I mentioned that I had put a deposit on a new dog (we have no pets currently), my doctor said that he does not want me to have contact with any dogs or cats due to my sudden asthma following my visit to the breeder. He said that's just common sense at least until further tests can be performed.

When I contacted the breeder and explained all this, he became annoyed and immediately accused me of costing him a sale and said that the deposit is non-refundable. I never saw or signed anything that indicated that the deposit is not refundable. He just told me to send him $300 by PayPal, so that's what I did because I (at that time) wanted to buy the puppy. If I had known the deposit would be non-refundable, I would have just wanted until the breeder could actually sell it (I think the breeder needed another week before being comfortable selling the puppy because it was too young to be sold). I also feel that my allergy is a reasonable reason to refund my deposit--even if it is generally non-refundable. It's not like I faked the asthma and I have medical records for the breeder, if he wants to have them. 

The breeder says that he won't refund my money and won't take a "loss" when selling the puppy. He said if he needs to discount the puppy in order to sell it then he will deduct the discount from my deposit amount and if there is any money left over then that's the refund I will get. In my mind, he can just discount the dog so that I effectively subsidize someone else's purchase. That doesn't seem very fair especially because he is a well-known breeder and can likely sell the puppy for the same price I was expecting to pay.

I don't want to go to court over this but if I do I think I would prevail because I never signed anything or agreed verbally to any sort of non-refundable terms for the deposit; also, I feel that the breeder took the deposit when he knew we really wanted the black terrier over the brown one. But all that considered, we aren't getting a dog due to my asthma. I know that's not the breeder's concern but I do think it's a different scenario from those buyers who just get cold feet or who decide to buy another puppy from someone else. 

Does anyone here think I should get my deposit back? If so, what do you suggest I say to the breeder to encourage him to refund my deposit and avoid court? (I cannot dispute through PayPal because they won't dispute any payments that represent deposits. Perhaps my credit-card company will, however...)

Thanks.


----------



## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

I know you aren't going to like this answer, but generally speaking, puppy deposits are not refundable. The breeder didn't do anything wrong insofar as choosing a pup because you did agree on "either-or". If you really wanted a black pup, you should have stated that. 

Look at it from the point of view of the breeder. A potential buyer puts down a deposit with Breeder A but is actually planning to get a pup from Breeder B if one becomes available. In effect, he's using Breeder A as a "back-up". In the meantime, the Breeder A has to mark his pup as "sold", thus dissuading other buyers. The breeder is out a sale. 

This is why most breeders today insist on a written pre-sales contract at the time of the deposit. Everybody complains about all the paperwork that goes into buying a purebred dog but unfortunately there are people around who take advantage of verbal understandings. I know that isn't the case with you, but believe me, it does happen. 

Since there isn't a written contract, it's going to be a "he-said-she said" situation. These generally don't work out to anyone's advantage. 

So there's an offer on the table. If you simply refuse to take it, that's not going to look very good on you if you try to get your deposit back in small claims court.


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

I have to agree. though I am a little surprised in the case of the medical problem that the breeder didn't make an exception. But you also cant really blame them because people try to get their deposits back all the time for various reasons and will often say just about anything to get their money back. If that's how the breeder makes his living a lost sale at the "best time" for selling the puppy can really hurt.


----------



## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

When you are putting down a deposit you are saying, "I want that, and I plan on coming back to get it." For whatever reason you didn't come back to get the dog that you said you would get. Seems like there was an initial lack of communication, you really wanted the black dog but didn't indicate that in your deposit, when you found out the black dog was no longer available you said nothing. The breeder assumed you would then return for the brown dog until you called to let her know you wouldn't be picking up the dog per doctors orders. At that point should she have returned your deposit? Maybe, but how much time has passed between deposit and you letting breeder know you would be backing out? If she has desirable dogs she should have no problem calling someone who looked at the puppies to see if they are still interested in the brown one. You can try small claims court and if you don't win you are out the filing fee plus the $300. 

If it was me I would chalk it up to a very expensive lesson to get everything in writing. 

Good luck.


----------



## jim600 (Mar 31, 2013)

1) It was four days between the deposit and my medical tests/notifying the breeder of my condition.

2) Why shouldn't the "lesson" be the breeder's? He should have gotten my agreement that the deposit would be non-refundable because I have no clue what breeders do or expect as this is my first dealings with such businesses. As much as breeders think they're right, they can't just modify consumer law to suit their own needs. That's why it's important to get things in writing, but in this case the breeder is the one who should have presented the written terms of the deposit. I, as the consumer, should not be expected to write-up a contract that states the terms of the deposit. I think most judges would agree that this is a merchant responsibility, not a consumer responsibility. Without such a WRITTEN agreement I am quite certain the law in my state specifies that my deposit for goods not received and for a purchase not consummated is eligible for a full refund. Anyway, I don't want to debate legal matters here because this clearly is not a legal forum and it's not fair to people who read this thread to be misled about the law based on what people think or believe is the law. (One thing is clear, however: The law gives the consumer certain rights. If the breeder gives me, say, $100, as a refund then I have the right to file a small claim against him for the remaining portion of the full deposit. Whoever suggested that it wouldn't "look good" on me for seeking total remuneration is just legally misinformed and obviously breeder-biased.)


----------



## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

jim600 said:


> 2) Why shouldn't the "lesson" be the breeder's?


Because the breeder doesn't care. Chances are, you're dealing with a less than reputable breeder that really only cares about the money. That's why the lesson falls on you, unfortunately.


----------



## zeronightfarm (Jun 15, 2011)

jim600 said:


> 2) Why shouldn't the "lesson" be the breeder's? He should have gotten my agreement that the deposit would be non-refundable because I have no clue what breeders do or expect as this is my first dealings with such businesses. As much as breeders think they're right, they can't just modify consumer law to suit their own needs. That's why it's important to get things in writing, but in this case the breeder is the one who should have presented the written terms of the deposit. I, as the consumer, should not be expected to write-up a contract that states the terms of the deposit. I think most judges would agree that this is a merchant responsibility, not a consumer responsibility. Without such a WRITTEN agreement I am quite certain the law in my state specifies that my deposit for goods not received and for a purchase not consummated is eligible for a full refund. Anyway, I don't want to debate legal matters here because this clearly is not a legal forum and it's not fair to people who read this thread to be misled about the law based on what people think or believe is the law. (One thing is clear, however: The law gives the consumer certain rights. If the breeder gives me, say, $100, as a refund then I have the right to file a small claim against him for the remaining portion of the full deposit. Whoever suggested that it wouldn't "look good" on me for seeking total remuneration is just legally misinformed and obviously breeder-biased.)


Sorry but you screwed your self there.

You should have done your research, if you had, you'd know deposits are almost NEVER refundable. 

The lesson YOU should learn here is that you NEVER pay any thing with out seeing paperwork first. You should have said that you want the black puppy, and that your deposit was for the black puppy. All of this should have been discussed in person or over the phone NOT on an e-mail. If I was you, I never would have sent money after they tried to rush the down payment.


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

also not sure of your local laws but it can become a case of "he said she said" if the breeder says they told you it was non-refundable it is considered a verbal contract (whether they did or not) in a lot of places. as well as historically dog deposits are usually non refundable the judge may well side with the breeder in the case that by waiting it can cost a sale or devalue the pup due to age etc. 

caveat emptor.

either way good luck. I personally feel if it was a reputable breeder and holding the pup didn't actually deflect another buyer they would refund part or all of the deposit.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> I am quite certain the law in my state specifies that my deposit for goods not received and for a purchase not consummated is eligible for a full refund.


In many places this only applies to services or goods not being provided by the SELLER or where the purchase is not completed due to the actions of the person taking the deposit. Otherwise, if people had the ability to change their minds on every purchase and demand their deposit back, it defeats the entire purpose of a deposit. 

I also wonder if the seller has a website where it says deposits are non-refundable and that providing a deposit via paypal etc constitutes acceptance of those terms. 

A verbal contract is worth the paper it is written on. If you want to fight in small claims court over $300 go for it, but I'd be surprised if you got more out of that than whatever refund the seller is offering if the puppy sells at or near the original full price. 
Given that it seems like there was no written contract, no real discussion of both parties responsibilities and no reference checks or vet checks by the seller on you (as in, making sure you are a suitable buyer), it sounds like you didn't do your research and didn't choose a great breeder and you learned a lesson hopefully.


----------



## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

Shell said:


> A verbal contract is worth the paper it is written on.


 I completely agree.


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Let this be a lesson to you to never send a deposit for a dog without reading and signing something. That being said, I bet most reputable breeders old probably understand your circumstances and refund your deposit. Chances are you aren't dealing with this type of breeder.


----------



## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

It sounds to me like you put in zero effort in finding a breeder, building a relationship with them, meeting their dogs and her a few times, and letting her match the puppy with your family. 

You didn't kool for a good breeder and now you expect to be treated as if you had done all of that work.

I'm sorry you didn't know better and you're out 300 bucks. I, personally think It's a little unreasonable due to the circumstances. However, I think there were many many red flags that something like this would happen.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

While I understand the hows and whys of deposits, I feel the OP has been ripped off here. So my sympathies.  
Also, I don't think you were dealing with such a reputable breeder, but I suppose that won't change anything now.


----------



## jim600 (Mar 31, 2013)

I have to say that I read all replies and I sincerely thank everyone who took the time to chime in. I am especially grateful to those posters who offered me some sympathy. However: I am appalled at how some posters were so quick to pass judgment (and very negative judgment at that), and it saddens me deeply to see how most people in society think. I was especially intrigued by the poster who--without sufficient evidence--somehow concluded that I had put in "zero effort" into finding a breeder and now "expect" to be treated a certain way. Others who said words like "let this be a lesson to you..." were equally annoying and judgmental. I had an asthmatic attack, for crying out loud! I now realize that there are just a lot of people out there with very poor critical reasoning skills and a very low level of knowledge regarding customer service and how to treat others fairly. What ever happened to just being kind and reasonable? Is EVERYTHING about money?

The fact is that I had searched for several months for a breeder and the one I chose is a leader in his field and is well-known by the AKC and routinely participates in AKC functions. He was a very knowledgeable and kind man and had an impeccable facility. He patiently answered all of my questions and was exceedingly helpful. I was therefore a bit surprised when he resisted giving a refund especially after I experienced an asthmatic attack immediately following my visit with him.

What has happened since I posted is a very nice outcome. The breeder today refunded my money in full and sent me this email:

"I sold the puppy your were interested in for full price and I am happy to let you know that I can refund your deposit in full. You should have received a PayPal credit already and if not you should receive one within the next 24 hours. I also wanted to let you know that normally my wife sends a prospective buyer an email that explains the terms of the deposit before we accept it. Unfortunately, she was caring for a sick friend the day you notified me that you wished to give a deposit and I was remiss in not giving you a copy of our deposit policy when you visited or by email afterwards. I will ensure that this doesn't happen to anyone else in the future. With respect to your allergy, I am sorry that happened. Normally I would have returned your deposit upon learning that you had an allergic reaction. But business has been very hard for me recently and I couldn't afford to lose any money on that puppy. If you get your allergy taken care of or find out that it wasn't related to the dog, then we would be most happy to work with you in the future."

The puppy is only 9 weeks old so I am happy someone else will enjoy him. 

Although I am not so pleased that my deposit might not have been returned due (as he stated) primarily to the breeder's financial situation, I am pleased that it all worked out in the end and that this didn't drag on. The above outcome shows that my breeder generally values good business practices and good communication. 

Going forward I will certainly be sure to get in writing whether the deposit is or is not refundable. With respect to buying a pet, I advise anyone out there reading this to also try to get some sort of written promise by the breeder (is he or she is willing) that the deposit is refundable should there be evidence of an allergic reaction prior to making full payment. Even if you think you don't have an allergy to a particular pet--you might, and you should try to find a sympathetic breeder who will work with you should that be the case because it's difficult for some people to test their allergic sensitivity when they spend only a short time with a particular pet.

Thank you again for reading and participating in this thread.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Glad everything worked out well!  

I do want to say that, while interesting to read, I'd replace the quoted email with your own words (you know, for privacy reasons. Putting an email on a public forum is not so nice, unless both parties are okay with the private info being out there for everyone to read)


----------

