# prong collar on my 8 lb Chi?



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

im not new to this board but i need some guidance please.

i hired a dog trainer to come to my home to help me teach zoey to not attack (lunch...bark...nip) visitors & to be more polite when walking. (trainer does have good reviews etc).

i didnt know what to think when he put a prong collar on her. he explained how it corrects like a mama dog would etc.

he then took her for a walk... then came & got me & we all walked. i mean....it seemed to work & zoey never seemed to be in distress. the collar was in conjunction with affection/treats each time she didnt try to attack a passerby.

but... im just freaked by the prong collar. am i a horrible mom for even having it on her today?

im so confused


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Fire that trainer immediately. I am not 100% anti-prong like some people (although I don't like them much), but they should absolutely never be used on a tiny dog. That chi should be in a harness, not even a flat collar. It is very easy to do major damage to a tiny dog's neck. 

(Chihuahuas are prone to collapsed trachea, too, and prong collars make symptoms worse; that's why step-in harnesses are better for chis than collars are -- you don't want any pressure on the throat.)

In addition, prongs do not correct "like a mama dog would." That is complete hogwash. Mother dogs correct with a swift, inhibited bite; we humans can't even hope to replicate that. In addition, mother dogs do not correct adult dogs anyway, only puppies. Trainers who use phrases like that are full of crap, to put it politely. You need to find yourself a positive trainer, stat.


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

Omg.... i guess my instinct was right. i mean.... it seemed to make sense & esp since zoey didnt 'cough' or anything at all i thought maybe it was just me being overprotective or something.

i was even googling prong collars while he waz here & came up with both pro & con so i just figured it was like any other subject...like politics etc

i paid upfront for 3 in home lessons...... and it wasnt cheap. i hope i can get my money back. 

i feel so stupid for letting this happen now.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Don't feel stupid, it's not your fault. MANY people come here not knowing what to look for in a trainer. I don't trust anyone with my dogs so I just go on YouTube for videos and train mine on my own. They aren't perfect but they're easy to live with and they know what's important so it's good enough for me. Try Tab or KikoPup.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

I agree with fire the trainer immediately.
I won't care for reviews if that trainer needs a prong to control my dog...
Especially if that small a dog.

Momma dog use bite inhibition and also shaking the ruff (neck) to correct their pups...
Least pyrs mom do.

If I were ever in need of a trainer...
That trainer better know their stuff enough to earn trust from Roman.
How are they to achieve that via using prong collar or control collar... Or use gloved hands or spray bottles etc...
Hell I even won't trust them with Roman in that case.

Then these trainers are just not good enough because they "fear" my dog.


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

i did have her in a puppia harness when be arrrived..... sigh. i have never used anything but a harness on her due to the trachea stuff. my poor girl...she was basically being frightened into being good on the walks then? was she in pain? is that why he took her outside without me at first.... was he kicking my poor dogs a** with this collar? ! im imagining the worst right now. i was an anxious basketcase when he had her outside & i couldnt see. i feel like an idiot now.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Wow, I definitely wouldn't trust any trainer who took my dog out of my sight to do who knows what alone before letting me see his training style. Even if you can't get your money back, please don't do the remaining two lessons. You could do a lot of damage to your dog. But don't beat yourself up -- you didn't know. And it's good that you felt skeptical enough about it to ask here.


----------



## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Oh yeah, fire that crack pot.


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

i just didnt know what to think or do...... my gosh my poor baby may have been yanked/hurt by that thing. put it this way.. i now feel guilty and tearful. i keep petting zoeys neck & telling her how much i love her. 

the good thing is they have an a+ rating with the BBB so im thinking i can get some of the $$$$ back. 

thanks for listening & not calling me an idiot.


----------



## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Yes, fire the "trainer". Anyone spouting nonsense about imitating mother dogs correcting their puppies doesn't know what they're doing. And a prong collar on a chi is just ridiculous. 

No one takes my dog for a walk unless I trust them 1000%. I won't even use the doggy daycare in town because I don't trust them to use corrections judiciously. 

In general, dogs who lunge/bark/nip at people are acting out of fear. Correcting the dog when it exhibits these behaviors (which is what a prong collar is designed to do) will only add to that fear. Instead, you need to associate the stimulus (in this case, the person) with all kinds of awesome things. You want to change that association so that the dog sees a stranger and expects great things to happen. Do NOT give the dog a chance to react poorly. Instead, administer treats, toys, and praise BEFORE the dog even has a chance to react. 

If you still want a trainer, look for someone who uses positive reinforcement instead of corrections.


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

yeah.... i knew i had a slightly sick feeling when he pulled that colllar out. but thought 'hey he is the pro not me....im overprotective....etc'. 

and thought that his adding treats & praise made it positive reinforcement type training...well.. i just didnt know better. 

now i do. im glad several of u replied. thanks xoxo


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

.....and im that way too....i wud normally never let anyone take my dog out without me. man... nothing else to say except ive pulled my head out from my butt now :doh:


----------



## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

You're okay. Don't feel guilty.

It's the trainer that is in the wrong here. It's they're job to help you. It's their job to educate you on how to help your dog. A lot of them put on a real sparkly show. It's not your fault if tey're handing out the wrong info.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree with the comments about ending your relationship with the trainer. Don't beat yourself up, you were doing what you thought was right and best for your pup. I'm sure that if you go on as normal, she'll forget the entire experience soon. I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally stepped on, smacked, tripped over, or otherwise "hurt" Katie. She bounces back without batting an eye.

This is the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior position statement on How to Choose a Trainer

You might also check out the "find a trainer" feature from the APDT or CCPDT.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I agree with the comments about ending your relationship with the trainer. Don't beat yourself up, you were doing what you thought was right and best for your pup. I'm sure that if you go on as normal, she'll forget the entire experience soon. I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally stepped on, smacked, tripped over, or otherwise "hurt" Katie. She bounces back without batting an eye.


Read the above again and again if needed, as an avid prong collar user even I don't understand using prong on 8 lb Chihuaha but it's done and has not harmed dog physically. 

The trainer's an idiot.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

wvasko said:


> Read the above again and again if needed, as an avid prong collar user even I don't understand using prong on 8 lb Chihuaha but it's done and has not harmed dog physically.
> 
> The trainer's an idiot.


Yep. I do use prongs on occasion, I think they have their uses for some dogs and some circumstances. But there's no way I'd use one on a Chihuahua and even more so not for being reactive to people. 

My suggestion for trying to get your money back is to base your complaint on the risks to a Chi's trachea, not any mention of it being too harsh style of training. There is wide leeway for how trainers can treat dogs under the guise of "training" but focusing on the chance of physical harm might work.


----------



## TRDmom (Mar 3, 2013)

For a Chi-- no prong, choke chain, etc!!!!!!!!!! I believe they do make a tiny head halter, which would be MUCH more effective and not hurt your baby. In my expereince, prong collars don't work very well and can harm the dog. I have been around a wide range of dogs and the hard halter has had the best success rate. One of my dogs uses the head halter... he doesn't care for it, but knows he has to wear it on walks with the other two. If he pulls, my boxer pulls... I'd rather not have shoulder surgery at any point in my life if I can help it. He gets a little face rub when we get home and all is forgiven.


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I've used prong collars before and I don't think they are evil, but on a tiny chihuahua? Why? To me, it seems less an issue of the trainer being too strict as me just wondering what the point was? What was the dog expected to learn from wearing the prong collar?

:suspicious:

In most cases, when I've used a prong, it's been on a dog that would otherwise yank my arm off on a leash due to either not yet knowing leash manners or working around possible extreme distractions it wasn't yet taught to ignore well. It usually was used for the safety of maintaining control of the dog without injuring me and it was always used with dogs that otherwise likely could pull me off my feet.

So...an 8 pound chihuahua? Um...why? I didn't even know they made prongs that tiny!


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Waiting for Roman's terrible twos to emerge...
Fingers crossing touching wood.

If Roman were to start pulling (he walks great without problems.. No special harness or collars etc.) my arm off....

I would just immediately turn back to head home and skip a couple days of walks till he gets the idea.
And showing him the prong collar works wayyy better than him wearing it.
The sight of a prong even turns me off... Why wouldn't a smart dog "know" to behave just by looking at it?


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Waiting for Roman's terrible twos to emerge...
> Fingers crossing touching wood.
> 
> If Roman were to start pulling (he walks great without problems.. No special harness or collars etc.) my arm off....
> ...


1. Not all dogs can go even a day without a walk for proper exercise, so skipping walks isn't always an option.
2. Rescue dogs can be very big, but not have leash manners yet.
3. How, exactly, is a dog supposed to understand what a prong collar is and what it is used for by looking at it? Heck, most owners don't know how to properly size one just by looking at it, why would even a "smart dog" know what it was for just by looking at it? I would not call a dog dumb for not immediately guessing what I planned to do with one.

You're very lucky that Roman has good leash manners. Not all dogs do and many of them can be very strong. Nowadays, I would try a headcollar or no-pull harness first, but for quite some time a prong collar was the only option available while I worked with extreme pullers.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> So...an 8 pound chihuahua? Um...why? I didn't even know they made prongs that tiny!


They make something called a mini-pinch.


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

wvasko said:


> They make something called a mini-pinch.


What is the intended purpose for such a thing, though? I would not think it would take much effort to correct a dog that size even if you wanted to use leash corrections or some kind of aversive.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

I will agree... 
Not all dogs are like Roman.


He reads situations almost human like...
But then again how could he not when he learns by my side of my habits all day long...

And that prong collar... Only on him once.
So even via memory and he has a good one... He knows what it is for.


P.S. His walks is more for bonding time with us than anything...
He has his own huge acres and run to exercise to his hearts content.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

packetsmom said:


> What is the intended purpose for such a thing, though? I would not think it would take much effort to correct a dog that size even if you wanted to use leash corrections or some kind of aversive.


Well it's intencded to help train any man/dog-eating Chihuahas out there, only problem is it would indeed take an expert of experts with a good read of the dog and a very soft hand on the lead. Just Sayin'....


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

packetsmom said:


> What is the intended purpose for such a thing, though? I would not think it would take much effort to correct a dog that size even if you wanted to use leash corrections or some kind of aversive.


You're right... I use minor leash corrections on walks with Roxie (just a slight pop because it gets her attention enough to get her to stop pulling so hard) and it works fine... No prong collars for my Chihuahua.


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

wvasko said:


> Well it's intencded to help train any man/dog-eating Chihuahas out there, only problem is it would indeed take an expert of experts with a good read of the dog and a very soft hand on the lead. Just Sayin'....


I'm right now picturing one of these experts with the leash held between the thumb and forefinger with the delicacy of a martial arts master plucking a fly from the air with chopsticks. 

At least I can still amuse myself, I suppose.


----------



## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

packetsmom said:


> I'm right now picturing one of these experts with the leash held between the thumb and forefinger with the delicacy of a martial arts master plucking a fly from the air with chopsticks.
> 
> At least I can still amuse myself, I suppose.


But one must also raise one leg and assume the position of the crane before any real work is possible. Not to be attempted by rookie wanna-be trainers.


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

so an update.... today im more angry with that JERK than anything else. 

i called him today & said i want to end the training. i said i want a safer and more positive agenda...and i want my $$$ back for the unused sessions.

he said he would be happy to come back & do reward based training. i said NO. Im done with you and will be finding an alternative. I had to say it twice. 

oh and he challenged the fact that the prong could be harmful to my Chi. 

One of you mentioned mini prongs....... And i dont believe this is a mini prong collar. 

grrrr...... im gonna go stick a prong in HIS neck & see if he likes it............

so anyway ill be getting a refund for the two unused sessions.... wish i could have gotten yesterday back (in more ways than one).

the more i think about how scared my baby looked....the more my blood boils. JERK is not the only four letter word i want to calll him.

phew. ok. deep breath. pet zoey. repeat.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm glad you're getting a refund, though! Good for you for sticking to your guns and telling him that you didn't want to deal with him anymore.


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

thanks for the support Cran! its been a rough couple of days.


----------



## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

I have never used a prong, only choke chains, even on a 10lb maltese. You wont be using it forever. Maybe only a week or so, just keep working on it, and then you wont have to. Maybe you could do the prong for a few days, then a chain, then a flat collar, and then hopefully she will have learned.


----------



## SillyDogs (May 28, 2013)

.....or not, I only read your 1st post.


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

SillyDogs said:


> I have never used a prong, only choke chains, even on a 10lb maltese. You wont be using it forever. Maybe only a week or so, just keep working on it, and then you wont have to. Maybe you could do the prong for a few days, then a chain, then a flat collar, and then hopefully she will have learned.


I'd rather use a prong on a dog than a choke chain, even for a short period of time. Threre is a documented lower incidence of trachea damage.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Glad you called and got your money refunded! Hope you find a much better trainer and put this behind you (both of you  )


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

SillyDogs said:


> Maybe you could do the prong for a few days, then a chain, then a flat collar, and then hopefully she will have learned.


OR ... maybe you could teach your dog exclusively with R+, mainly because it works. 

Dogs don't require any P+ in order to learn.


----------



## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

SillyDogs said:


> I have never used a prong, only choke chains, even on a 10lb maltese. You wont be using it forever. Maybe only a week or so, just keep working on it, and then you wont have to. Maybe you could do the prong for a few days, then a chain, then a flat collar, and then hopefully she will have learned.


Small dogs, chihuahuas especially, are HIGHLY prone to tracheal collapse. A prong, or a chain, or even a flat collar, can seriously, seriously damage them with hardly any effort.

Choke collars do nothing. They have no purpose except to prevent a dog from slipping it and then that's only if it's fitted properly. The only use for one is the pop it and you can do the same thing with a flat collar, so...

A prong has very little purpose anyway, except to provide pain/discomfort to the wearer when it's being pulled. 

This chi is lunging and barking at people. Feeling that pain will most likely make her more reactive, because when she sees a person, she feels pain. She will associate them with pain. The dog needs behavior modification, to be taught to not react, to change the way she feels about seeing people, not hurt or forced not to react.


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

again i want to thank all of you so much! zoey is doing great... today i started working with her on my own to show her that strangers & dogs = goodness. she even walked side by side with the neighbors terrier for half a block... tail up & wagging. being a dog mom is a learning process & i sure am glad i nipped this b.s. training debacle in the bud. 

meanwhile i wrote an honest review about mr. prong. i didnt bash .... i just said it was my opinion that the methods were not positive nor appropriate for toy breeds.


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think you're on a much better track here.  It's unfortunate that a lot of trainers and training classes that advertise as "positive methods only" simply aren't, but that is the reality. I'm really glad you got a refund and it sounds like your review was fair.


----------



## Glo (May 11, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Fire that trainer immediately. I am not 100% anti-prong like some people (although I don't like them much), but they should absolutely never be used on a tiny dog. That chi should be in a harness, not even a flat collar. It is very easy to do major damage to a tiny dog's neck.
> 
> (Chihuahuas are prone to collapsed trachea, too, and prong collars make symptoms worse; that's why step-in harnesses are better for chis than collars are -- you don't want any pressure on the throat.)
> 
> In addition, prongs do not correct "like a mama dog would." That is complete hogwash. Mother dogs correct with a swift, inhibited bite; we humans can't even hope to replicate that. In addition, mother dogs do not correct adult dogs anyway, only puppies. Trainers who use phrases like that are full of crap, to put it politely. You need to find yourself a positive trainer, stat.


NO WAY! I have 4 Chis and they do not have a collar on in the house. Only when they go for walks. That trainer is wrong!


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

today they called again to say that my refund is being processed...and by the way "we use prongs on all aggressive dogs & they are 100% safe when used properly". 

felt my bp rise.... decided not worth my breath.... and hung up


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

Glo said:


> NO WAY! I have 4 Chis and they do not have a collar on in the house. Only when they go for walks. That trainer is wrong!



get this.... he said zoey should wear the prong and leash while in the house so i can snap it as needed..i.e. if she barks out the window. agggggghhhh!


----------



## Sparkelina (Feb 1, 2013)

Final Update on this.... the partner/owner called me & has agreed to refund my ENTIRE fee, not just the unused sessions. Actually she said my check is being mailed back to me today. :clap2:

So - at least that ends on a good note.

Thanks to all for your support, once again!!


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Glad to hear it! I hope you can find a new, great trainer, too, if you still want one.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Sparkelina said:


> Final Update on this.... the partner/owner called me & has agreed to refund my ENTIRE fee, not just the unused sessions. Actually she said my check is being mailed back to me today. :clap2:
> 
> So - at least that ends on a good note.
> 
> Thanks to all for your support, once again!!


That's great news! Good luck in your search for a new and improved trainer.


----------

