# Shock "e" collar demonstration..



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I am posting a video made by an owner trying to demonstate how a shock collar works and feels. While it might give you a giggle, it has a dark side to it of exactly how it would feel especially on a dog with no coat, or a breed with little body fat. Sighthounds have very little body fat, especially around the neck which makes this video disturbing. Sighthounds when startled or panicked start to scream- quickly triggering the collar to go from level 1 to level 6. 
You need the sound on to follow what is happening. I am not condeming those that have found this collar to work- but what I am saying is try all other methods of training with consistantly before use of these types of collars. http://www.pistolwimp.com/media/55702/


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## kendallj (Apr 22, 2007)

wow my neck hurts after watching that!!! Sometimes a simple no and a tap to get attention is enough... I don't like people who go STRAIGHT to the "extreme" methods of training... there are safer ways... yes they may take longer but they are a lot more humane.


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## lovezois (May 22, 2007)

Like Borzoimom I have sighthounds so would never use this. 
The feeling in the UK in General is that these collars should be banned. I think so too . There are surely better and kinder ways to train than resorting to this type of collar.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I wonder if in the video they turned the frequency up just to make a point and that in and of itself is animal cruelty. Poodles have very little body fat and when I use my e-collar for off-leash training it is at a very low frequency. In fact, when he was running around all the people in the beach area of a lake where he was not permitted, he didn't feel the e-collar and I had to turn it up a little to get his attention-it may be uncomfortable but it never hurts when used appropriately.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

kendallj said:


> wow my neck hurts after watching that!!! Sometimes a simple no and a tap to get attention is enough... I don't like people who go STRAIGHT to the "extreme" methods of training... there are safer ways... yes they may take longer but they are a lot more humane.


 I totally agree!! Since any training book or teacher will tell you " NEVER TRAIN when you are FRUSTRATED.. " and people buy these collars out of "frustration", I fail to see the use in them.
When I was working in k9 the only time these collars were used were to insure the release of a bite- and only AFTER months of trying a normal training methods. However- these were powerful, well muscled working dogs- and ONLY after all other methods, used with consistancy and time- FAILED to work.. And how often was that?- RARE... 
As one of the first trainers I worked with more years ago than I care to remember use to say " if you are not gettnig the results you want, what are YOU doing wrong?"..


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I think this would be a great training tool for high school teachers, there would be alot more kids paying attention!


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## SunSiberians (May 7, 2007)

Jen D said:


> I think this would be a great training tool for high school teachers, there would be alot more kids paying attention!


Hahahaha! That's hilarious.



Ginny01OT said:


> I wonder if in the video they turned the frequency up just to make a point and that in and of itself is animal cruelty. Poodles have very little body fat and when I use my e-collar for off-leash training it is at a very low frequency. In fact, when he was running around all the people in the beach area of a lake where he was not permitted, he didn't feel the e-collar and I had to turn it up a little to get his attention-it may be uncomfortable but it never hurts when used appropriately.


I agree. Of course, being on a human neck may make a big difference. My dog has so much fur and loose skin around his neck, he barely feels it - but just enough that he pays attention. I went walking with him and never once did I have to use it. Once the dog learns what it's all about - the collar really doesn't have to be used, unless there's a really distracting situation. I also leave it on the lowest level and I've felt it numerous times - I've felt all the levels - and yes, the highest did hurt, but I never use that on Lakota. I always check to see if it works on the level we use - if it hurt, I wouldn't be able to do that. >.< I can't tell you how much this method has made a difference in our lives. Lakota walks off leash and completely ignores all the other dogs and distractions now on my command, he comes, he sits, and never complains - the greatest part is I rarely, rarely ever have to use it - and that should be the goal. Lakota has never responded to any other training method, like he has with this one. So for some dogs, it really is the best option. In the wrong hands this collar could really, seriously screw a dog up and I get sick to my stomach just thinking about some jerk playing around with the collar and subjecting his dog to constant pain. But Lakota is in good hands.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

I don't know a whole lot about e-collars but I believe the collar in the video is an anti-bark collar, not the type used for training. The anti-bark collars often increase in intensity (on their own) each time the dog barks, which I imagine could be quite painful.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

opokki said:


> I don't know a whole lot about e-collars but I believe the collar in the video is an anti-bark collar, not the type used for training. The anti-bark collars often increase in intensity (on their own) each time the dog barks, which I imagine could be quite painful.


 It is but a shock is a shock. And bark collars can be set off if another dog barks- and not the one wearing the collar either- so if the dog is wearing one, it doesnt take long for the one wearing the collar to figure out if another dog barks- they get hurt, increasing their fear in other dogs. And a "yelp" is perceived as a bark so if the bark yelps out of startle or pain- it goes off again- yelp - again- throwing the dog into a total panic.. 
A shock collar is a shock collar is a shock collar..


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

borzoimom said:


> It is but a shock is a shock. And bark collars can be set off if another dog barks- and not the one wearing the collar either- so if the dog is wearing one, it doesnt take long for the one wearing the collar to figure out if another dog barks- they get hurt, increasing their fear in other dogs. And a "yelp" is perceived as a bark so if the bark yelps out of startle or pain- it goes off again- yelp - again- throwing the dog into a total panic..
> A shock collar is a shock collar is a shock collar..


I understand and agree with you. I was only trying to point out that the anti-bark collars (IMO) are much more severe in comparison to an e-collar placed on a low setting, controlled by a handler and used for training.

For the record, I don't use or promote the use of e-collars.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

opokki said:


> I understand and agree with you. I was only trying to point out that the anti-bark collars (IMO) are much more severe in comparison to an e-collar placed on a low setting, controlled by a handler and used for training.
> 
> For the record, I don't use or promote the use of e-collars.


 I thought we were "on the same page".. lol.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

Well that video is right down stupid. 

I see nothing wrong in using an e-collar when it is being used in the right manner. Any type of collar can be inhumane. I am not saying that the e-collar can be used on every canine and that it cannot be used in some areas of training. But it has its place just like any other training tool out there. There is a right way of using them and a wrong way in using them.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

An e-collar is NOT a shock collar--it will not SHOCK the dog when used properly--sigh--.


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## Cassie Nova (Dec 24, 2006)

Okay, I would never use a shock (e?) collar on my dog for two reasons:

1) I have no clue what the difference is, what they do, nor am I willing to try it myself- I would never do something to my dog that I would not do to myself. Nor will I feed her something I have not tried- so yes, I do know how Nutro tastes and I also know how all of her treats taste. 

2) Cassie is a complete softy- she was most likely abused (mistreated?) in her previous home so I don't think shocking, pinching or startling (what ever those collars do) would help.

For Lakota, for example, I could understand it. For the police dogs, I could understand it. Personally, I don't know that I could ever do it (last resort) but as long as you know what it feels like and know that it doesn't hurt, just gets their attention, I'm not going to harass you over it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

The e-collar uses aversion as a means to manage an undesired behavior. Just as a gentle leader uses aversion to manage an undesired behavior. IMO, if the undesired behavior doesn't go away after a short period of time, your training isn't working and you'll be managing the undesired behavior until your training gets better. That being said, I do not advocate long term management or use of aversion...I advocate better training instead. As a dog handler, you may be content with using a gentle leader on your dog for the rest of its life, but I'd prefer you train loose leash walking.


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## Cassie Nova (Dec 24, 2006)

Yeah, I know, I'm a crappy trainer...but my loose leash training never works.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Cassie Nova said:


> Yeah, I know, I'm a crappy trainer...but my loose leash training never works.


O' goodness, I hope you didn't take it as me speaking to you specifically, I was just preaching in general. And believe you me, all trainers have room to improve. Dog training is far from a perfect science.


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## Amaya-Mazie-Marley (Apr 15, 2007)

I have tested out both on myself, and they both hurt. The e-collar doesn't shock, its almost like when you touch your tounge to a battery or you have those muscle stimulator things. The bark collar brought me to tears it hurt so bad. Amaya my 8 pound dog has a very high pitched bark which would immediately send it up to the 6th level and it would kill her. She weighs 8 pounds, even Mazie couldn't handle it. I would never use either on my dogs, I think if every single possible training method fails, then I guess resort to that, but I personally would never do it and I don't promote them.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I had a bad experience with one as a last resort for a rescue dog, I think they are very useful for training distance and for hunters. I myself have not had a need for one and have to say I couldn't use it on myself to see how it felt. I paid my 20yr old to do it for me and she didn't like it!


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## Cassie Nova (Dec 24, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> O' goodness, I hope you didn't take it as me speaking to you specifically, I was just preaching in general. And believe you me, all trainers have room to improve. Dog training is far from a perfect science.


Oh, no Curb! Of course not! I already knew I was a crappy trainer before reading your post!  

No, but if anyone has any advice to elaborate on the loose leash training...I'm open to it.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> The e-collar uses aversion as a means to manage an undesired behavior. Just as a gentle leader uses aversion to manage an undesired behavior. IMO, if the undesired behavior doesn't go away after a short period of time, your training isn't working and you'll be managing the undesired behavior until your training gets better. That being said, I do not advocate long term management or use of aversion...I advocate better training instead. As a dog handler, you may be content with using a gentle leader on your dog for the rest of its life, but I'd prefer you train loose leash walking.


 I agree! Now we cant use a gentle leader on a sighthound, but if your training isnt working= you training needs to get better. To me- these collars are no less than a cattle prod.. lol.. But then again- I never had to use one on my own dogs- consistancy, thinking and working with the dog always worked. 
Keeping in mind the breed traits in certain areas in training- learning becomes a combination of understanding of training on the dogs part- and YOUR understand in prevention on the other..


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## Doberman's (Jun 2, 2007)

Nearly every training tool has it's place and when used properly and by a handler _*that knows how to use it *_ or even better *when* then a E-collar works.

Most of the time a person is ignorant to the proper use, settings and application of a E-collar. They should be used for field work only and not as a means of punishment. They are IMHO just about completely misunderstood and there are some people who refuse to even listen to reason so there is no use in trying to explain exactly what purpose a E-collar has.

Not everyone should use one, plain and simple but they do have thier place along with the many other training tools that re available to us.


BTW that video was shot as a joke and I saw it actually on TV. That guy is an idiot.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I am a licensed certified trainer- and DO know how to use these collars, as when working in k9 it was used especially for training bite control. And now having sighthounds or not- I have ALWAYS found other ways to train a dog other than resorting to this method. 
Most of the time theses collars are purchased out of frustration- and NO part of training should be done out of " frustration". As stated in countless training books, training instructors etc " once frustrated- its time to finish on a good note and STOP .." Sometimes steps in training is so subtle is hard to see the dog is progressing- but consistancy and a calm mind pays off.. Even prevention is a training method..


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## SunSiberians (May 7, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> I am a licensed certified trainer- and DO know how to use these collars, as when working in k9 it was used especially for training bite control. And now having sighthounds or not- I have ALWAYS found other ways to train a dog other than resorting to this method.
> Most of the time theses collars are purchased out of frustration- and NO part of training should be done out of " frustration". As stated in countless training books, training instructors etc " once frustrated- its time to finish on a good note and STOP .." Sometimes steps in training is so subtle is hard to see the dog is progressing- but consistancy and a calm mind pays off.. Even prevention is a training method..


I started Lakota on this method, not out of frustration at all. I can see how that could be horrible - the collar would turn into a big punishment. Lakota has always been a stubborn dog, never willing to please or motivated by praise or treats. I wanted a dog that I could trust off leash and not be concerned about on coming traffic or people or other animals. He now goes off leash every day when we walk at night (he wears little blinking lights so I can see him, it's very cute lol) and I never have to use the collar. He's responded brilliantly to it and I am so incredibly happy. He's a different dog. He actually is enthusiastic now! I think that he has made the connection - obey mom - I run free; obey mom - and no collar pulsing on my neck. Ironically with restrictions comes freedom - as long as he comes to me, waits when I tell him, heals when I want, sits when I command...etc, he gets his freedom. He is so much happier then before and I am so much more relaxed. My goal was to not ever have to use the collar - which has quickly become the case. During our training I only used the lowest level and he quickly learned to avoid the "shock" all together. When he was still learning I'd make the collar vibrate first - as a warning and if he didn't respond, then I'd press the "shock" button. I say shock in quotes because I have felt the collar on all levels it offers and feels much more like a pulse, it's a very strange sensation. The lower levels are more of a tickle and the higher levels travel through your whole body and feel like a prick. The highest level is painful, I will never use that.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

A licensed professional trainer started me with the e-collar and I have not had any problem. A licensed professional trainer needs to go to an experienced licensed professional trainer to learn about the tool and technique. They just can't get one themselves and try to use it. Continuing ed and acquiring compentency in the use of a training tool, medical equipment or anything for that matter is paramount to understanding how it works.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

I agree as I use to use them in training methods for k9, - however- I do not think these collars should be so available- .. I have always felt, even when working with these collars out of force- that there is always another method..


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

borzoimom, if you do not mind me asking you a few questions, you do not have to answer them. The first one is where did you get your license from? and the other one is where did you train at?


Not all e-collars are the same and they are not like the older version where it just had one setting that socked the you know what out of the dog, that felt like a stun gun. The better e-collars that are out today are like a TENS until which they have higher levels of stimulation (and yes I have tried the e-collar on myself before hand). I would not dare use an e-collar that you can buy at Wal-Mart or at most of your pet stores, the ones that have the lag time between the push of the button and the stimulation. Now I am not saying every dog and every person should use an e-collar all I am saying is that they have their place in the dog training world just like any other training tool that is out there. I would not recommend a newbie dog owner try an use an e-collar without seeking professional help first. Let me rephrase that I would not recommend a newbie dog owner try any type of training device without seeking help from a professional first. I for one do not like those bark collars or the collars that are used with the fencing.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

It was posted in "train the trainers.". First you have to be accepted and trained and certified by the recognized schools. Second I uh had to train in bomb detection etc- then certified there, then pass 3 tests to become licensed. ( this includes a whole background check etc.) .. 
I have never except one perticular situation found a e collar necessary- and that was high working dogs in a specific field.. There are always other ways to train a dog..


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## Doberman's (Jun 2, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> I agree as I use to use them in training methods



You do ? Well that's a change. 
Every training tool has it's purpose and being a trainer you should know that.


BTW you should* never ever *use them for bite control, you are asking to get bitten not stop it. Noone I know of that does Schutzhund uses an E-collar btw. 


A site for those of you who do not know what it is:
http://www.dvgamerica.com/whatis.html

Never use a e-collar as punishment if you do then you are being cruel. They are training not to curb aggressive behaviour.

When I used my E-collar it was an expensive one, 550.00 $ to be exact! Never ever buy a inexpensive e-collar as it may not work properly and yes you could hurt the dog espeically if you are ignorant as to how to use them. I used to for field work and horseback riding and it saved Rudy's life on many occasions and trained him to stay with the horses. 


These collars are not for every dog because just like people every dog is different but they do hold a very good place in traing just like most other trainning tools.


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## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

They used them in k9 corp I worked for years ago- as always stated " although I have never found use for them or used them on my dogs, I have worked with these collars in k9 work"
.. 
And agree we disagree...


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

borzoimom said:


> They used them in k9 corp I worked for years ago- as always stated " although I have never found use for them or used them on my dogs, I have worked with these collars in k9 work"
> ..
> And agree we disagree...


I have to agree with you, I see a need for them field trainning, and I have worked with a trainer/breeder of gsd that worked over thirty years training police dogs. He has use all training equipment and he recomends a flat collar unless out in the field. I am at this time shortly becoming a Certified trainer and have trained without the paper work for a long time.

I had a rescue dog that had become very aggresive, he was large and I would not leave him alone with anyone when I was not home. I called Tim the trainer he had come to my house to see what I was doing wrong with the dog. I took him to the vet to make sure it wasn't medical before Tim had come and he could not figure out what was going on with the dog. I was determined to save this dog so Tim recomended i go to another trainer to get more experience with the e collar and try it with the dog. 

I went to her and she was great, I had high hopes for the dog, and purchased a very expersive collar. Home we went, (this has gone on for a few months now) I put the collar on him, had it on the lowest number, the dog turned and came after me i felt like I was training a lion! I blocked him with a chair and later that night noticed a small lump on his leg. We went to the vets the next day and he ended up having to be put down due to cancer at three years old.


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## SunSiberians (May 7, 2007)

Doberman's said:


> You do ? Well that's a change.
> Every training tool has it's purpose and being a trainer you should know that.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, good points. Not every dog will accept this collar. 
My trainer and all the information I have read, says that these collars should never be used to work with aggression - it can make the dog even more aggressive. 
Some dogs would be terrified of the collar and never make the connection between - if I obey, I won't feel the collar - instead the won't do anything you say - which then leads to frustration and screws up the dog. 

It is also important to spend the extra money on a good reliable collar. It would be aweful to buy a cheap collar that is inconsistant and has a delayed response or doesn't have different levels of stimulations. 

The collar really does feel like a tens unit, in fact the stimulation used in the collar is less then the tens unit is capable of. 

Never work out of frustration and never use the collar as a punishment.

Choke collars seem to be a much more excepted training method (and I'm not condoning them either) but they seem to be more damaging then a properly used e-collar. The training group next to me used the choke collar method and I'm constantly seeing dogs heads being jerked up - I can imagine this does more damage to a dog then a properly used e-collar. Plus the dog responds quicker to an e-collar then a choke collar. The group next to my training group was actually graduating - after 8 weeks - and still, dogs heads were being jerked up to heal properly. Lakota, with the e-collar, learned to heal on the first day. I don't have to stimulate the collar with him anymore and he's not fearful.

Although I have hired a trainer and work with Lakota using the e-collars, I do not like the bark collars because their levels of stimulation increase and they go off inconsistantly - even other dogs barking at them. 

I do wish that people who choose to use the collars have to, by law, hire a professional first and be able to pass a test in which they are guarenteed to know how to use the collar properly first, before using it on a dog. Responsible people use the collar well and it works and it is not inhuman.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

There are alot of great points that people have made, being either for or against them. I will just repeat myself the dog I wrote about, it was his last chance because no one knew what the problem was. Both of the trainers were very experienced and the trainer with the e collars understood why I was there with this issue so she was also willing to give it a shot. This was not a mild problem and we had tried numerous other things first. So I guess what I am trying to say is they should not be available for people like they are for the saftey of the dogs and the people who own them with no clue.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

owww! dang that guy should have put the metal part on the back of the neck... not the sensitive part of the front!
That video isn't even funny.


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## XcomSquaddie (Jun 19, 2007)

On a lighter note:


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

I have to agree with you on _most_ aspects. They are inhumane for a lot of dog (including sighthounds) . But they should not be banned, because they're not always cruel. My friend who is very, very dog crazed has used a shock collar on her lab mix stray. He was a crazy barker and would always distract judges at trials. She tried all methods of training him, and didn't give up quickly. She must have been trying different training methods for at least 8 months (daily, of course). 

After about a week with his shock collar he only barked about 1/3 of how much he did before it. I don't really think it hurts him much, he doesn't act like it hurts him. Maybe it's a different brand, but I think he just finds it annoying. ( Like when you flip a dogs ears inside out. After the training my friend has done with his shock collar, he now only barks about 1/4 of what he did before.

If I may add to this story, this dog was starved to 19 pounds, he was neglected, and hit on the head with a piece of wood so he has no muscles on the left side of his head. Despite how terrified this dog was of humans, once he learned to trust them, he's even fine with these "inhumane" training methods. If a dog that's been through those hardships with humans isn't bothered by having a shock collar on, I don't think it would bother other dogs as much as we think it would. 

I'm not trying to stand up for shock collars, because I would never use one on any of my dogs, I'm just saying, if they're used responsably they're not terribly bad, or as bad as some people might think they are. I'm just trying to give the other side of the story.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I have used an e collar but my dogs get very excited to wear it. They all come running to me and push and shove to be the one that gets to put it on. Why do they do that. The collar to them means Fun, off leash running somewhere. It has never been abused. I do wish you had to have a special permit to buy one. So many people buy it and strap it on the dog and start zapping with no clue what the heck they are doing. If the dog doesn't already know what you want, zapping them will only confuse them more. I feel so bad for animals in the hands of these heartless people. I also agree that not all breeds can use them. Not all individuals within a breed can either. My collar has a pager mode. It just vibrates. It works great to get the dogs attention when far away. As with any training tool it is only as good or as mean as the hands using it.


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## threedognite (Feb 10, 2007)

I endorse the E collar and feel it is a great tool. The problem isn't the collar, it's the people who don't learn how to use these correctly. Many dog owners don't realize that the dog has to be conditioned to wear this collar and there isn't any reason to cause a dog pain by using this collar. The collar I use has a 'pager' button on the side and all it gives is a vibration to the dog's neck. This doesn't hurt the dog in any way and is very effective for snapping the dog out of what it's focusing on at the moment during training whether it is a squirrel in a tree, another dog, etc. 
There is plenty of information out there on how to use these collars and I suggest to anyone interesting in purchasing an E collar to buy a quality collar and not one from a pet's supermarket. These collars can get expensive but they're worth it. The one I have is rechargable; the remote has a 'pager' button on the side, a 'nick' button and a 'continuous' button. I have never used the latter. The remote also has several frequency levels. These collars were orginally designed to use on dogs for field work. Check out Martin Deeley's site on the E collar.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I think I have the same Model Dogtra 2500


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## rpe (Jun 9, 2007)

Jen D said:


> I think this would be a great training tool for high school teachers, there would be alot more kids paying attention!


What a great idea. LOL


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## SunSiberians (May 7, 2007)

XcomSquaddie said:


> On a lighter note:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lySRt00f9Us


Oh goodness, that was too funny!!!


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## XcomSquaddie (Jun 19, 2007)

SunSiberians said:


> Oh goodness, that was too funny!!!


Glad you liked it.


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## GreyhoundGirl (May 23, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lySRt00f9Us

LMAO! That was great!


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