# Fromm?



## Jaebird82 (Jun 13, 2010)

Hey all,

Lots of good information here. Have a 13 week old Boston Terrier and looking for a decent dry food. Breeder had him on Purina Puppy and I desperately switched him to a Petco recommended Nutro Natural Choice. I may have done the switch too fast because he would poop every hour or so.. and it was nasty stuff. After doing a little research, I see that Nutro was a horrible choice, so it was probably just the quality of the food. He's now on rice and boiled chicken, so he's doing much better. Fromm seems like a good choice especially now that they confirmed it's Ethoxyquin free. Although, I see from some of these posts the tests were done on much higher doses, so it may not even matter. Are there cheaper better foods? Is Fromm a good choice? I know there are better foods, but I want something decently priced. Another one I'm looking at is TOTW..


----------



## StellaLucyDesi (Jun 19, 2008)

Yes! Fromm is a good choice. I would either feed Fromm Gold puppy or one of the 4-Star all-life-stage choices, like 4-Star Chicken, Duck, Salmon, etc.

Your pup is soooo cute! Congratulations!


----------



## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Fromm is a really good food. I fed the Surf and Turf formula for a while but Jackson got bad eye boogers on it.... just his problem though! I still think it's a GREAT food and he loved it.


----------



## ajcstr (May 28, 2010)

It may just be that you switched to the new food too fast. As far as Fromm goes, I think its a good food but dogs can react differently to different foods. You MAY want to try California Naturals Puppy for a while. I think they have chicken & rice and lamb and rice formulas. I have never used it, but I have heard these are good for dogs with sour stomachs because they have simple, limited ingredients. Then you can gradually try different foods to see what agrees with him once he adapts to it or I guess you can stick with it if he likes it.

California natural is part of Natura Pet (not to be confused with Nutro) which was recently aquired by P&G so if you decide to stick with it, keep an eye out for formula changes.


----------



## keljai (Nov 24, 2008)

go on their website, theres a b1g1 free coupon online


----------



## Jaebird82 (Jun 13, 2010)

Thanks for the info and compliments! Jax is my first dog, so it's a learning experience. I'm leaning towards Fromm, but I also have access to a Costco near by. I've heard that Kirkland (their brand) is a good food (not as good as Fromm), but it's also cheaper. I'll go take a look. Anyone disagree? Any other good ones that are a little cheaper than Fromm?


----------



## Jaebird82 (Jun 13, 2010)

My local mom & pop store doesn't have Fromm, but they do have Chicken Soup for the Puppy Lover's Soul. Another post on here says it contains Ethoxyquin, a bad preservative apparently. But tests are done at a much higher dose... so I'm not too sure if I believe in all the bad hype. Man this food thing has my head spinning!


----------



## ajcstr (May 28, 2010)

Jaebird82 said:


> My local mom & pop store doesn't have Fromm, but they do have Chicken Soup for the Puppy Lover's Soul. Another post on here says it contains Ethoxyquin, a bad preservative apparently. But tests are done at a much higher dose... so I'm not too sure if I believe in all the bad hype. Man this food thing has my head spinning!


You can always get it online.

Also - if you call or email Fromm, thet will send you a $5.00 off coupon to try the food. Of course you would have to find someplace that sells it.

Fromm's website has a list of online retailers and also if you put your zip code in, you can find a dealer within a 5, 10 or 25 mile radius.

Finally, Chicken soup for the Pet Lovers Soul is made by diamond who is supposedly not going to use Ethoxyquin any more. Ethoxyquin seems to be a major baddie but who knows.


----------



## TuckerBoo (Aug 26, 2009)

Hey all – I’ve been doing work with Chicken Soup and I can confirm that they do not add ethoxyquin to any of the formulas. To give you some background, fish meal is preserved with ethoxyquin on the ships prior to entering port. Ethoxyquin is effective at preventing rancidity in the highly volatile fish meal. Rancidity in ingredients can lead to severe illness. Most of the ethoxyquin is destroyed in the cooking process, requiring other preservatives to be used. Tests for ethoxyquin are run routinely on Chicken Soup products and the results are typically less than 2.5ppm. This is equivalent to 0.0002% or 2 ten-thousandth’s of a percent. This is a true trace level that many laboratories are unable to detect. The amount allowed, and considered to be safe, by the FDA is 75ppm. 

I have fed Chicken Soup to my big Great Dane nephew Tucker – and also to my three cats – and they love it! I hope this helps. If you have any questions about Chicken Soup let me know and I can try and answer them for you guys


----------



## Kina_A (Jun 8, 2009)

ajcstr said:


> California natural is part of Nutra Pet (not to be confused with Nutro) which was recently aquired by P&G so if you decide to stick with it, keep an eye out for formula changes.


It's actually part of the Natura Pet, not Nurta.


----------



## ajcstr (May 28, 2010)

Interesting:

http://www.truthaboutpetfood.com/ar...nds-of-pet-food-to-change--looks-like-it.html


----------



## ajcstr (May 28, 2010)

Kina_A said:


> It's actually part of the Natura Pet, not Nurta.


Yes - thank you - can't spell - I corrected the post


----------



## Kawgirl (Feb 1, 2009)

Good luck with your food search, I know how overwhelming it can be!

I have tried about every brand out there with my poor Shih Tzu and in the end I have found she seems to do best on cooked skinless chicken breasts and Before Grain chicken dry kibble. Price for me has not been an issue but this is what seems to work best for her. Still, I worry about feeding too much chicken product so I also rotate Fromms 4 star duck kibble along with the cooked chicken. So far, everything seems to be going well!

I have leaned that what works best for one dog may not work at all for the next and also the best, most expensive food might not be the one that agrees best with their tummy. 

PS The absolute best advice I have ever received is using plain PUMPKIN! When my baby does get a little diarrhea or is constipated, a tiny bit of plain pumpkin always seems to do the trick!


----------



## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Firstly, congratulations on adopting a very cute puppy! And welcome to the wonderful world of dog poop. Nothing unites first time owners with long time lovers like Poop!

Ok, you didn't say but before we talk about food the puppy should have been vetted for worms and any other nasty things that could get in the way of perfect digestion. I'd say this about food for a 13 week old healthy puppy: what you feed is less important than your housetraining regime. Of course certain things will make a dog sick. By the time Ethoxyquin makes your puppy sick you might have been the first Boston to win multiple agility ribbons. So I think the key is moderation.

Are you feeding a few small meals a day and planning poo outings around them? Small meals=small poops 

Complete disclosure: I've never raised a puppy but I know more than I want to know about doggy digestive problems. My instinct tells me that when a dog is so small, feeding it a good quality canned food several times a day is a good way to go. It's giving the dog moisture and a higher concentration of protein that most dry foods. You can change up cans without the same risk of indigestion that sudden changes of kibble might bring on (ymmv).

If your dog is happy and healthy and eating well, Fromm is a good choice (among many) but housetraining is job number one in the what goes in must come out category. 

If a dog seems "unpredictable" in the poop consistency department (again assuming no other health problems), "simple" foods like California Natural, canned and kibble, are good choices.

On a side note: P&G aren't stupid, just probably evil. They will not change the labels overnight to read "bad quality." At first they will keep the same ingredients, but they will cut more corners, source from more dubious suppliers, and basically game us.

We should be glad they don't have the license to drill. Political rant off.


----------



## Jaebird82 (Jun 13, 2010)

Thanks for all the replies! Well, I decided on Chicken Soup for the Puppy Lover's Soul. The price was right and was getting frustrated with all the options, so I just went for it. A pet store in my area (not Petco or Petsmart) that does less advertising (less overhead) has great prices; a huge warehouse of straight-to-the-point products that have a good selection of healthy food, but no Fromm. Also picked up a few braided Bully Sticks because he's absolutely ruining the floor moldings, among other things -- keeps him busy. He'd chew on the Nylon bones for only so long before he got bored. I try to catch him in the act, but he's so darn fast and sneaky. I'm constantly correcting him.." Off, no, Out of the kitchen, no biting, pee on your pad" etc so I'm definitely trying with the house training.. very food motivated and a fast learner. He was vetted for worms and everything came back negative. He's getting his third shot Monday -- looking forward to being able to take him to the dog park.

"By the time Ethoxyquin makes your puppy sick you might have been the first Boston to win multiple agility ribbons". Haha - he may win runniest poo ribbons right now -- it's awful. I'm feeding him three small meals a day and a few treats. I'm mixing in a small hand full of Chicken Soup. I don't know how fast to wean him off of plain chicken and rice. His digestive system is very fickle. If this doesn't work out, I'll try California Natural perhaps. As far as poo outings go, he's just starting to go out, but there really isn't any easy place to poop in my area unless it's on the sidewalk. Watery sidewalk poops are hard to handle!


----------



## JonnyNutro (Mar 29, 2010)

philovance said:


> ....My instinct tells me that when a dog is so small, feeding it a good quality canned food several times a day is a good way to go. It's giving the dog moisture and a higher concentration of protein that most dry foods.


Actually, if you read the guaranteed analysis on any canned food, you will see that canned food has much less protein. You are correct about moisture, but dry kibble is concentrated protein. Moist foods are not concentrated protein. I know there are just too many opinions about dog foods (there are more than there are people who feed dogs & cats), but I do encourage people to at least read the labels and try to get a basic understanding of what most of that information means. Typically, dry kibble has two to three times higher protein levels than canned/wet/moist foods.


----------



## HORSEandHOUND (May 28, 2009)

Johnny, if you remove that typical 70% moisture from the canned food you'll find it is higher in protein, lower in fat and grains than dry food. While expensive it is highly nutritious.


----------



## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

JonnyNutro said:


> Actually, if you read the guaranteed analysis on any canned food, you will see that canned food has much less protein. You are correct about moisture, but dry kibble is concentrated protein. Moist foods are not concentrated protein. I know there are just too many opinions about dog foods (there are more than there are people who feed dogs & cats), but I do encourage people to at least read the labels and try to get a basic understanding of what most of that information means. Typically, dry kibble has two to three times higher protein levels than canned/wet/moist foods.


Thank you for playing, but you are incorrect. I think you are suggesting that because the label on Nutro's Ultra Adult dry good is listed at 26% it has over three times the protein as Nutro Ultra Adult canned at 8%.

It's hard for me to believe that someone who works for a pet food company is unfamiliar with the formula for comparing foods on a DRY MATTER BASIS but I will walk you through it. You cannot compare protein values AS FED, which is how they are listed on the label, because of the huge difference in moisture between the two products.

The formula for dry matter basis is simple:

Crude Value (what's on the label) divided by 100 less the moisture content (on the label) X 100 = the actual amount of protein, fat, etc.

Here is a online calculator which will do the work for you: 

http://tinyurl.com/272c3py

Let's take Nutro Ultra Adult dry and canned as an example:

The dry food has 26% protein on the label and 10% moisture. 26/90 X 100 = 29% protein on a DRY MATTER BASIS.

The canned food has 8% protein on the label and 80% moisture. 8/20 X 100 = 40% protein on a DRY MATTER BASIS.

Feel free to correct me if I've overlooked something but this is pet nutrition 101.


----------



## Kawgirl (Feb 1, 2009)

Hi guys, I am reluctant to stick my neck in here but I would like to learn.

Right now I am feeding dry kibble just because for some strange reason my dogs like it best and seem to have less runny stools with it...but...following this thread has me more confused than ever. 

Keep is simple for me please. If I feed the recommended portion daily of the 6% protein canned food and the recommended portion daily of the 26% dry kibble, are my dogs not getting more protein in the dry?

Cost considerations aside, is wet food better than dry? ( say same brand wet vs dry?) If it matters I have a ShihTzu and a min. Poodle.


----------



## Jaebird82 (Jun 13, 2010)

Good luck Kawgirl... this is all over my head too.


----------



## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Kawgirl said:


> Hi guys, I am reluctant to stick my neck in here but I would like to learn.
> 
> Right now I am feeding dry kibble just because for some strange reason my dogs like it best and seem to have less runny stools with it...but...following this thread has me more confused than ever.
> 
> ...


I don't think it matters whether the protein comes from canned or kibble if the foods are rotated. Most dogs can handle the switch from one canned food to another without digestive upset. Some dogs do better on a change of kibble if it is introduced over a few days.

I think dogs benefit from canned or fresh food. Compared to kibble, the meat content is higher (again on a dry matter basis which is the only way to compare diets in different "formats" to each other). Thus the protein content is higher.

My mutt is about 18 lbs so somewhat comparable to your Shih and poodle. He is an easy keeper, meaning he eats what he's offered and although he is active we underfeed him to keep his weight down.

I start first with how many calories a day the dog needs, based on his age and level of activity. Using the handy calculator here (http://www.goldendoodles.com/care/food_calculator.htm) I find Benji should get ~500 total calories a day for maintenance. 

So let's start by providing half his calories a day with a mainstream moderate protein and fat kibble (rather than grain frees which tend to be higher in protein). Using Canidae All Life Stages as an example, a half cup of kibble has 234 calories or more or less half of what Benji needs (it doesn't have to be exact; in fact you should feed a little less at mealtime if you are giving any treats). 

So if I give him 1/4 cup of food twice a day I will want to add about 200 calories in canned food. Canidae ALS canned has 450 calories a can so I would add to the kibble 1/4 can twice a day. Easy to remember 1/4 cup of kibble and 1/4 cup of canned.

Now as to how much of the protein comes from kibble vs canned, remember the calorie count is the same for both. Since the canned has more protein on a dry matter basis (see my explanation above) it is providing more of the protein (and better quality protein) as a percentage than the kibble.

So to sum up: canned is good. The smaller the dog the more his daily caloric intake can be "wet" food without breaking the bank. A healthy dog should have reasonably firm poops regardless of whether he is eating canned or dry. It is important to note that unless a dog is fed raw meaty bones or has her teeth brushed regularly or is given safe chewy treats/toys such as bully sticks or certain Kongs, you will eventually have dental problems whether you feed kibble or canned. No kibble will keep the teeth sufficiently clean.

And do try to find a few different lines of food you can afford which are readily available. Avoid those with grain fractions, by products, etc. The foods preferred by members of this forum are all good for the most part. I myself like Natural Balance, Canidae, Merrick, and Holistic Select. Personally I have no problem with grains in moderation. But again, canned is good for diets that should include less grain. Merrick's Whole Earth Farms canned can be had for less than $1 a large can, yet it is grainless (potatoes are the carb).

Feel free to pm me if you are still confused and feel I can help.


----------

