# My dogs ate advil



## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

I just need someone to maybe dumb it down a little for me. Here's what happened, this morning i'm literally leaving the house for work (getting watch on, shutting blinds, turning on discovery channel for dogs) when i notice them chewing on something. I go check it out. it's one of them travel bottles of Advil. (disclaimer: I have NO IDEA where they got the bottle. All my medicines are in upper cabinet. i'm SPECULATING that they found the travel bottle in my camera bag or something). I took the bottle and 2 pills from the floor (the bottle only holds 10 tablets and I don't know how many were already gone from bottle). I remembered reading somewhere that Advil wasn't good for dogs so i called the animal ER they said get them in. so we were at ER within 30minutes of them ingesting the advil. ER gave them something to throw up everything in their stomach. there were no pills so they think pills already disolved. When the vet was talking to me, i was an emotional WRECK and she gave me so much information that not only was it too much, but using medical terms that i'm not familiar with. I called up to the ER a little bit ago and their blood levels normal. they'd like to keep dogs for 48 hours, but it's $1500/dog per night which is $3000 total per 24 hours. Is this safe to treat at home since their blood levels are normal? Dogs are 2 females, utd on shots and 20lbs each.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

In my opinion, leave them at the vet for at least 24 hours. Blood work does not cover all of the bases of what can happen from ingestion of Advil, and if one of them ingested all 8 of the missing pills, it could easily be fatal. 



> Once swallowed, ibuprofen and naproxen are rapidly absorbed from the stomach and intestines. Depending on the amount of drug ingested, toxic effects can occur within an hour, but some signs can take a few days to appear.





> There is no specific antidote for ibuprofen or naproxen toxicity. Treatment may include intravenous fluid therapy, blood transfusions, medications to help heal stomach damage, and other medications to help support and stabilize the patient. Hospitalization may be required so that blood values, urine output, and vital signs can be monitored. Ibuprofen or naproxen toxicity can be fatal. However, pets can survive if the condition is recognized, diagnosed, and treated quickly. The amount of drug involved also has a direct effect on recovery and long-term outcome.


It really stinks, but that is a lot of missing Advil. 

Did the vet offer any sort of payment plan for the stay, like CareCredit, so you can pay the bill off over time instead of all at once?


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## nadia (Aug 19, 2015)

Wow! That's a hefty vet bill. Honestly it frustrates me how much they can wipe out your bank account just to watch your dogs over night. Not to mention how much extra it would be if something went wrong!

If your dogs blood levels or okay and they haven't been showing signs of nausea vomiting lethargy etc and seem otherwise normal, I would take them home. You're going to have to spend that money anyway if something does end up being wrong, so I see no point in wasting 3000 dollars tonight if nothing is wrong.

Go with your gut!


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## nadia (Aug 19, 2015)

Hiraeth, that's more helpful than my input and I didn't know Advil could take days to show symptoms. (I figured they should be showing symptoms by now) so thank you for adding that and giving them an informed solution.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

At the low end of the toxic dose range, ibuprofen can cause stomach ulcers.
At the higher end of the toxic dose range, ibuprofen can cause severe damage to the kidneys, but the damage may not show up for 24-48 hours. Running IV fluids helps protect the kidneys from this damage.

Since you don't know the dose your dogs ingested or even for sure which dog ingested it, there is no way for anyone to answer the question about whether it is safe to treat at home. It is safest to assume the worst and treat accordingly. You might get lucky assuming the best, but there's no way to know.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

nadia said:


> Wow! That's a hefty vet bill. Honestly it frustrates me how much they can wipe out your bank account just to watch your dogs over night.


They are not "just watching the dogs overnight."


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

That price is... off the charts! How can it be so much? And I honestly wonder - do they REALLY have someone there all night long, monitoring them? Some facilities do, some don't. I'd definitely ask if there is 24/7 supervision before making your decision. I'm no vet, or even close, but if the bottle only had 10, you were able to capture two, and you're not sure if any were already gone then worst-case scenario you have one dog that ate 8 and one that had none, or both had SOME... they've already thrown up. I would guess that it's probably OK to take them home and monitor them but that's just me, and my personal opinion. If in ANY doubt about it, then leaving them seems the best bet - but that is a REALLY hefty fee for something like that. Unbelievable. 

(take what I say with a grain of salt... I came home to my dog with a pack of straight pins scattered about on the floor and decided to wait it out a day or two instead of going for x-rays. Everything was fine, but... these are the choices we make and if anything HAD been wrong, I probably would have kicked myself for it)


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

A few responses here are advising you to take a chance with your dog's life. Do you feel lucky? How are you going to feel if they're wrong?


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

Yes, I have care credit. 

but the damage may not show up for 24-48 hours- OH MAN!!! THIS IS SCARY! is that something they will see when they run their blood levels? 

yes, there is actually someone there overnight- usually 3 workers. One of the girls somehow got parvo back in February (even though UTD on shots) and she at that ER, i pretty much lived at that place for 2 nights and 3 days with her (a very expensive stay-cation). 

Yeah, they have them on fluids and then they're giving them 'activated charcoal' to absorb the medicine and something to help with their stomach lining?


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

FWIW, I wasn't advising one thing or another - I understand how something like this can cause conflicting feelings. Some of us don't have that kind of money - and sure, our dogs' lives are priceless and I'd bet that any one of us here would spend whatever it took to keep our babies healthy. But in reality? $3K is a LOT of money for ONE night of supervision. Not everyone has the luxury, unfortunately, to always do the "right" thing for their pets. It's very sad, but very true. Sometimes we take chances that perhaps we wouldn't otherwise, if financial circumstances were different. Ultimately, no one can really tell the OP what exactly to do or not do... it will have to be a decision she makes on her own, based on weighing the pros and cons and her gut feelings. Obviously it's better to err on the side of caution and leave the dogs at the vet's overnight, but that price tag is high enough that it could REALLY compromise some people's ability to pay their bills, etc. I would think the office would work with a payment plan for something like that, though. Definitely worth asking.

Ultimately, "taking a chance" is a decision that we are responsible for... and many of us enter into that chance knowing exactly what the risks are and exactly how terrible we'd feel if we were wrong. But that's life. If the OP decided to take that chance and not stay at the vet's, I wouldn't judge her for it.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

RonE said:


> A few responses here are advising you to take a chance with your dog's life. Do you feel lucky? How are you going to feel if they're wrong?


Agreed. Especially with so many missing pills and such small dogs. Blood work can only show so much when it's done an hour after the pills were potentially ingested. 

It does seem like an exorbitant price. Is this vet your only choice in the area? Can you ask them why an overnight stay is so expensive?



TGKvr said:


> FWIW, I wasn't advising one thing or another - I understand how something like this can cause conflicting feelings. Some of us don't have that kind of money - and sure, our dogs' lives are priceless and I'd bet that any one of us here would spend whatever it took to keep our babies healthy. But in reality? $3K is a LOT of money for ONE night of supervision. Not everyone has the luxury, unfortunately, to always do the "right" thing for their pets. It's very sad, but very true. Sometimes we take chances that perhaps we wouldn't otherwise, if financial circumstances were different. Ultimately, no one can really tell the OP what exactly to do or not do... it will have to be a decision she makes on her own, based on weighing the pros and cons and her gut feelings. Obviously it's better to err on the side of caution and leave the dogs at the vet's overnight, but that price tag is high enough that it could REALLY compromise some people's ability to pay their bills, etc. I would think the office would work with a payment plan for something like that, though. Definitely worth asking.
> 
> Ultimately, "taking a chance" is a decision that we are responsible for... and many of us enter into that chance knowing exactly what the risks are and exactly how terrible we'd feel if we were wrong. But that's life. If the OP decided to take that chance and not stay at the vet's, I wouldn't judge her for it.


I'm not necessarily into "judging" people for their decisions, however, I do feel like everyone should be able to absorb a *certain* amount of emergency vet bills when they are pet owners. If anyone gets a dog and thinks that they're never going to pay for anything outside of vaccines and routine checkups, hoo boy, they're probably very wrong.

That being said, $6K is on the higher side of what I think most 'average' households would be able to comfortably absorb. Ask about a payment plan, for sure, and perhaps look in the area for a facility that won't charge as much for a night of observation?


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

also, i don't know who ate what. they're speculating that the tan one (we have a tan and a black dog) ate most of it because her puke was redder than the others puke.


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

One of the rescue ladies friended me on fb. she's not a vet, but has much dog experience (a lot more than me!). she said that the ER i've been taking her to seems to be 'overkill and ripping me off'. so kind of why i'm asking. I can take them out of that ER monitor them tonight. get them to their regular vet tomorrow for more blood work/testing, and if need be take them over to the other 24 hour vet that the rescue lady suggested.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

mrsawesome said:


> also, i don't know who ate what. they're speculating that the tan one (we have a tan and a black dog) ate most of it because her puke was redder than the others puke.


Red as in... The color of Advil? Or as in, their stomach linings may be bleeding because Advil has been known to cause bleeding ulcers? Because if the Advil has been digested, I wouldn't imagine the color would be left behind?

Even ONE Advil can be fatal to a dog of that size. If there were ANY signs of consumption, leave them or find another vet to take them to. I would strongly recommend that you DO NOT take them home.



mrsawesome said:


> One of the rescue ladies friended me on fb. she's not a vet, but has much dog experience (a lot more than me!). she said that the ER i've been taking her to seems to be 'overkill and ripping me off'. so kind of why i'm asking. I can take them out of that ER monitor them tonight. get them to their regular vet tomorrow for more blood work/testing, and if need be take them over to the other 24 hour vet that the rescue lady suggested.


ETA: Like I said, perhaps take them to a different clinic, as the prices at this one seem very high. Taking them home when they have eaten pills that are known to be fatal to dogs could be dooming them to horrible deaths. By the time you notice signs of kidney failure, it will be too late.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Ahhh... I guess I glossed over the part where it's the ER folks actually going to monitor your pups overnight. That makes much more sense as to the high cost now. Still doesn't make it right though and it DOES seem like an exorbitant amount. It just sucks to be put in a position where you truly have to weigh the pros and cons of a risky situation and to be so uncertain. Have you called your regular vet yet to ask their advice?

I'm really sorry you have to deal with this... so scary. I wish you luck!

**ETA: also, I've thrown up before after taking Advil and long enough that I'm certain it had dissolved... the color was definitely a pinkish advil color - though I wouldn't have called it red or reddish.


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

Red as in... The color of Advil?

yes, the advil had a reddish color candy coating. but they also didn't know how much of that 'red' was from their dog food. We actually ran out on monday and my husband mixed 'emergency' food all together and was feeding them that. btw, Their emergency food consists of cheaper food we'd get when unexpected food needs arised (longer visits to friends than planned etc...)


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

What you seem to want is for someone to tell you it's fine to take your dogs out of the hospital. No one who truly understands ibuprofen toxicity is going to tell you that. 

If you don't have the money, you don't have the money. But if you don't _want_ to spend the money then _you_ have to decide how comfortable you are with gambling. Maybe they vomited it up, maybe they didn't. Maybe they didn't even eat it in the first place. Maybe one of them ingested a toxic dose, maybe both of them did. Those are all unknowns and you just have to decide how comfortable you are with assuming the best vs assuming the worst and acting accordingly. No one can objectively, factually say it's ok or not ok.

As for the cost. The cost is substantial but it is NOT just to babysit or supervise and it's ridiculous to suggest that it is. An emergency/overnight facility has a great deal of overhead, far more than a day clinic. Who among you would like to take the responsibility for running IV fluids in a safe manner - working overnight hours, calculating an appropriate fluid rate, purchasing and maintaining the facility and equipment you need to do so, not overhydrating or underhydrating, monitoring for adverse reactions and being able to address them, etc? If you do and you think you can do it cheaply, good luck to you.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

mrsawesome said:


> Red as in... The color of Advil?
> 
> yes, the advil had a reddish color candy coating. but they also didn't know how much of that 'red' was from their dog food. We actually ran out on monday and my husband mixed 'emergency' food all together and was feeding them that. btw, Their emergency food consists of cheaper food we'd get when unexpected food needs arised (longer visits to friends than planned etc...)


Did they have food in their stomachs that they were vomiting? Or was it only stomach acids and fluids?

I can't imagine red food dye staying in the stomach that long. Or Advil caplet dye, honestly.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

> ETA: Like I said, perhaps take them to a different clinic, as the prices at this one seem very high. Taking them home when they have eaten pills that are known to be fatal to dogs could be dooming them to horrible deaths. By the time you notice signs of kidney failure, it will be too late.


This is true. By the time you visually see any evidence of kidney problems, it's way too late. I think $1,500 per night per dog is high and I live in a very high cost of living area, however, if that's the only option for overnight monitoring of a dog that may be going into kidney failure as we speak, that's what you do.


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

ok, yes. i'm looking for validation that they're going to be okay. but I didn't know it takes 24-48 hours to notice anything. 

If any advil was eaten it was at 7am
they were eating thier breakfast about 7:05 while i was on phone with ER (I was leashing them up at their food bowls) so yes- food was in their stomachs. 

Do we have the money? yes and no. if it were all coming out of pocket- no. but we got care credit/payment plan, so yes. we'll just have to scale back a bit on extra curricular spending.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

I've been faced with large vet bills like that as an 18 year old kid. I'm still paying off those bills and have a ways to go, but my dog is alive. Here's my line of thinking whenever I bite the bullet at the vet. If this were my child, would I even be considering not going forward with treatment? My dogs would be at the vet as long as they needed to be, and I'd deal with the cost later.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm inclined to believe I am not the only one around this forum who thinks this way.

You may want to look into pet insurance in the future. For small dogs it isn't that expensive. I have it exactly for this reason - I don't want to have to hesitate to give my dog the best treatment possible because of cost.


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

Also, my basic question is, could i do care at home tonight, get them to reg vet tomorrow and if need be, bring them to the lower price 24 hour vet, - but with same results if i left them at high price 24hour care facility.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

mrsawesome said:


> ok, yes. i'm looking for validation that they're going to be okay. but I didn't know it takes 24-48 hours to notice anything.
> 
> If any advil was eaten it was at 7am
> they were eating thier breakfast about 7:05 while i was on phone with ER (I was leashing them up at their food bowls) so yes- food was in their stomachs.
> ...


Well, this is good news, at least. Advil on full stomachs will be much less likely to have been absorbed full-strength and will therefore hopefully not have adverse effects on the linings of their stomachs (this is why even humans are supposed to take Advil with food). 

I'd suggest leaving them in for at least 24 hours, and perhaps 48. 

A few things about CareCredit:

1. If you got the six months same-as-cash option, be VERY CAREFUL that your payments post after your statement, but before the due date. If you have the same plan as I did, ONE DAY LATE on a payment applies 29% retroactive interest to your *entire* loan, both paid and unpaid portions. For my loans that I am still paying off, this means that a late payment would cost me $3,480 or thereabouts. 

2. Any costs charged to CareCredit less than $500 must be paid off within 21 days.

These things weren't explained very well to me when I first got my loan, and I was lucky that I am slightly obsessive about reading paperwork or I would have never known. *Even if you don't have the same plan as I do, read the fine print very carefully.* CareCredit (or whoever) KNOWS that you applied for the loan because they were your only option to care for your pet, and they will take full advantage of you, given the chance.



mrsawesome said:


> Also, my basic question is, could i do care at home tonight, get them to reg vet tomorrow and if need be, bring them to the lower price 24 hour vet, - but with same results if i left them at high price 24hour care facility.


ETA: Once your dog shows signs of renal/kidney failure, it's too late. No, if something went wrong, it wouldn't be the same results that you'd get at the 24 hour care facility.


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

OK thanks HIRAETH. I'd like to leave them there, but my husband wants to take them out. we're arguing as we speak (i'm at work and he's at the ER). it's why my sentences are sometimes garbled. Thanks everyone for the input. i'm going to go google the signs of kidney failure. I thought maybe since their bloodwork was normal (4 hours after ingest) that they were in the clear. UGH. so stressful!!!


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I would call your normal vet if you haven't already and explain the situation, see what they say and to explore all options.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

mrsawesome said:


> Also, my basic question is, could i do care at home tonight, get them to reg vet tomorrow and if need be, bring them to the lower price 24 hour vet, - but with same results if i left them at high price 24hour care facility.


The basic answer (and I think you already know this, deep down) is no, you can't give the same level of care at home as they can at a well-equipped and well-staffed emergency vet clinic. Your dogs may or may not NEED that level of care but, if they do, it'll be too late by the time you find out.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

sydneynicole said:


> I've been faced with large vet bills like that as an 18 year old kid. I'm still paying off those bills and have a ways to go, but my dog is alive. Here's my line of thinking whenever I bite the bullet at the vet. If this were my child, would I even be considering not going forward with treatment? My dogs would be at the vet as long as they needed to be, and I'd deal with the cost later.
> 
> Maybe I'm crazy, but I'm inclined to believe I am not the only one around this forum who thinks this way.
> 
> You may want to look into pet insurance in the future. For small dogs it isn't that expensive. I have it exactly for this reason - I don't want to have to hesitate to give my dog the best treatment possible because of cost.


I don't think this is crazy, and it's great you were able to do this - and had the presence of mind at that time to make that decision. All I'm saying is that things aren't always black and white, and we are faced with incredibly difficult decisions sometimes. And during those times, whether we want it to be so or not, our financial situation can factor into those decisions. Also, I actually *DO* agree that when you take on a pet, you have to assume you'll deal with some emergency bills at some point. So you can't always play the "I can't afford it" card as a responsible pet parent. Everyone's version of "affordable" is different, and we all want what's best for our pets, but there are just some things that may happen that are cost prohibitive. A $10K surgery, for example... not everyone could do that no matter how much they'd want to. I totally respect those that CAN and DO pay whatever it costs to make their pets healthier, but I also understand that for some folks it's just not an option.

Anyway I guess I'm just playing a little bit of devil's advocate here because I think we all need to be careful to be respectful of others' specific situations and their decisions... just because someone may not make the same decision as me doesn't necessarily mean it's the wrong one, because maybe it's the only "right" one for them and their family. It doesn't make anyone a bad person for not being able to afford some vet care - even in what may seem to be obvious, like this specific case. I think we ALL agree here that ideally, these dogs should be monitored overnight. But I'd get it if the OP and her husband chose differently.

That said, this conversation makes me think I need to look into some pet insurance!


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

The basic answer (and I think you already know this, deep down) is no, you can't give the same level of care at home as they can at a well-equipped and well-staffed emergency vet clinic

THIS! this is what i was looking for. and now i'm in tears. my husband thinks that they'll be okay and what we're fighting over. he just took them out of the ER. They should be home by now. i'm devastated!!!! i'll update you guys over the next couple days. and thanks TGK for not judging me and playing devils advocate. it's really hard on this end. Positive thoughts and if you pray, a prayer or 2 for us please.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Fingers crossed for you that everything will be just fine with your babies!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

My lab (years ago) ate 21 advil tablets. We knew it was 21 because it was an unopened bottle and there were 3 left. She weighed 55 pounds. I was too late for vomiting to help.

3 days and nights at the vet. Fluids like crazy. She went on to live a long life.

The decision is entirely yours. Mine was to leave my dog in the hands of my vet and keep the fluids coming. I am mostly writing to assure you that there is hope. Best to you and your dogs.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

There's nothing funny about this situation, but there is some irony. If you were TRYING to give your dog those pills, you'd have to wrap them in bacon or stuff them in pill pockets or slather then with peanut butter.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

RonE said:


> There's nothing funny about this situation, but there is some irony. If you were TRYING to give your dog those pills, you'd have to wrap them in bacon or stuff them in pill pockets or slather then with peanut butter.


That was the last time I bought actual "advil." That slight candy coating was enough for my lab, who would go on the eat a candle, a bottle of foot lotion, and finally an entire suede glove before retiring from her moronic ways... It only took about 10 years to be amusing!


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Personally I'd want my dogs at the vet's as long as necessary, but I'd see about transferring to a non-crisis vet clinic with less exorbitant prices. Where I live now there's only one veterinarian, but back when I was in a more developed area some of the regular clinics kept a tech on duty overnights, which was obviously a spendy service, but not as expensive as having the same thing done at the crisis clinic.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Personally, I treat my dogs like I'd treat my children. Well, except for the fact that I dislike kids and don't plan on having any, so.... I treat my dogs like I'd treat my friend's children? 

If one of my friend's kids potentially overdosed on medication, there is no way in hell I'd be taking them out of the hospital and saying "I can keep an eye on them at home and bring them back if something happens". 

That's just me, though. I'm by no means wealthy, I'm single and have responsibilities, yet I have figured out how to absorb over $10K in vet bills over the last five months. It's possible if one is willing to make the sacrifices. 

I don't want to judge or call anyone a "bad" owner, there's a difference between "bad" and slightly irresponsible. It's irresponsible to own a dog without preparing to pay at least a few thousand dollars in emergency vet bills at some point in their life. If you can't take the hit up front, then look into pet insurance or payment plans. But don't deny them the care that they may need and take a chance with their lives. 

It sounds like OP was willing to pay the bills and didn't want the dogs taken home, but I think a lot of people would do what her husband has done in this situation, and take the chance versus spending the money.

Best wishes, OP, I hope they do well in the next few days.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

People who think veterinary costs are exorbitant should ask to see a copy of their medical bills sometime, lolz. 

There's no shame in money factoring into veterinary decisions. That is a reality of life. Maybe someone truly doesn't have the money. Maybe philosophically, spending above a certain amount of money on an animal isn't what you choose to do. 

However, I will tell you from experience that the vast majority of the time, it's actually a matter of priorities and preferring to spend money on something other than veterinary bills rather than truly not being able to afford it. And really, there's truly no shame in a vacation or a data plan or repairing the car or a new refrigerator being a higher priority than veterinary care. How people choose to spend their own money isn't really my concern. But just cop to it and say so instead of moaning about the cost and how you "can't" (vs don't want to) afford it or how the price is too high and veterinarians are money grubbing. 

I'd much rather work with someone who plainly says right at the outset "I am willing/able to spend X money and that's it" whatever their reason than someone who goes on and on about how much their furbaby is their life but then declines recommendation after recommendation and still wants doing nothing or just trying some general treatment to be as good of an approach as actually diagnosing and appropriately treating the problem. 

For me personally with my own pets I just see it as, if X is what needs to happen and X costs Y, and Y is in my budget... then it happens. I mean, I don't WANT to spend money on a lot of things that need to have money spent on them and it sucks when your dog tears her cruciate and your other dog breaks a tooth and swallows a toy and then you have to tighten your belts for awhile until the Care Credit is paid off, but that's how we choose to prioritize. And there's no shame in that, either (nor any superiority, truly).


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

sassafras said:


> People who think veterinary costs are exorbitant should ask to see a copy of their medical bills sometime, lolz.
> 
> There's no shame in money factoring into veterinary decisions. That is a reality of life. Maybe someone truly doesn't have the money. Maybe philosophically, spending above a certain amount of money on an animal isn't what you choose to do.
> 
> ...


Bolded: Yes, I totally agree. I had to make a TON of sacrifices (and still am) to pay off my dog's vet bills. I could have purchased a new car. Or paid off 1/3rd of my remaining student loan debt. Or I could have put half a down payment on a house or gone to Scotland for a few months. Instead, I got to spend ten weeks with my dog. 

Is there any superiority in it? Nah. Most people probably think I'm pretty stupid for prioritizing my dog's bills when I'm not perfectly financially stable and capable of comfortably affording them. But those people just don't understand that my dog was everything to me. 

*shrug* It is all about priorities, and we all have different ones. Putting a pet's veterinary care at the back of the priority list constantly isn't responsible (in my opinion), but putting it after bills and necessities is something that a lot of owners have to do in order to be responsible roommates or spouses or parents.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There are so many factors that come into the decision making with money and vet care. 

I agree with sass that for the vast majority of people it's a 'don't want to' (for reasons ranging from ones I consider very valid to ones that make me side-eye the heck out of the owner). I think, though, that for me the baseline minimum is someone have the finances and access to treat most minor, common problems (routine preventative care, ear infections, minor injuries) and euthanize in case of life threatening, painful, ones (cancer, ran over by a car, obstruction or what have you). Really, that's it for me. That's controversial in its own way, but someone not wanting, or being able, to afford cancer treatment or orthopedic surgery doesn't make me look down on them. Now, if someone lets their dog SUFFER and slowly die from those things... that's a whole different story. 

And that's not touching the whole gray area where the best treatment is not necessarily the only treatment option available and cheaper options may be less successful or ideal but 'good enough' and work to save the dog and keep it alive and pain free, if not as sound as it once was. Or pain-free and alive for a while and then need to be euthed sooner than the more expensive, preferred method?

Right now my dog has what my vet thinks is a lick granuloma and I think is a tumor he's aggravated via licking. Vet WOULD do surgery/biospy but between not believing it's a tumor/cancerous and the way the dog did with minor surgery last go (badly - really badly) we're just not doing it. Is money the determining factor? Well, no, but it is *a* factor, when combined with the others. The vet would do it and probably consider it premium care, but even he is kind of shrugging and saying 'meh', so. Meh. 

Or even the fact that sometimes even if you have thousands saved, those thousands run out (My neightbors dog got hit by a car, broke its pelvis and a leg, had the surgery for that, then ate something non-digestable during crate rest and had an obstruction and had surgery for THAT. Then 3 months later came up with cancer. ...They were out of money and went for keeping the dog comfortable and then euthing). 


This case, man. I don't know. Knowing my vet and the way he handles things, he'd probably have sent the dog home with me on an IV/meds and done office visits daily.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Sunak said:


> Note to self: Never move back to America with a dog.


Well, in all fairness, that's a ridiculously high amount. 

One of my dogs got trampled by horses and spent 3 nights in an ER facility and it only cost me about $3,000 when all was said and done. And that covered his stay as well as his treatment.

ETA: I replied, but now the original post is gone, haha. I was SO confused for a second


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

There was a guy on the news the other night that was spending $30,000 for his cat to have kidney surgery. That money was going to be a down-payment on a house.

I'm guessing a good percentage of people that saw that piece thought he was nuts. There's a part of me that thought he was nuts. I don't think any of us really know what we're willing to do until we're faced with the decision. My daughter and her then boyfriend spent tens of thousands of dollars on treatment for their dog, Dante, when he was diagnosed with lymphoma. That was money earmarked for college and a wedding. The treatment was expected to extend his life by maybe a year. Today, he is cancer-free and nobody who has met Dante would say the money was poorly spent. 

For those appalled by the costs of emergency veterinary care: Clinics now have the same equipment and treatment options that humans have and we, as pet owners, frequently insist on it. I am reluctant to label those charges as a "rip-off," especially since I spend my days reviewing medical claims and records. 

One last anecdote about difference in perspective: Before I was married, I had two room-mates and an Irish setter mix that had moved from California with me. My dog, who was about ten years old and in generally excellent health, developed a bad UTI and I spent around $400 on treatment. That was a lot in those days. One of my room-mates, who had an outdoor springer he used for hunting, told me I was crazy and I should take her out and shoot her. I said, "You'd better hope YOU never get sick while you're living here." He wasn't a bad person, but he could not grasp the idea of spending money on a stray dog I got for free.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

RonE said:


> There was a guy on the news the other night that was spending $30,000 for his cat to have kidney surgery. That money was going to be a down-payment on a house.
> 
> I'm guessing a good percentage of people that saw that piece thought he was nuts. There's a part of me that thought he was nuts. I don't think any of us really know what we're willing to do until we're faced with the decision. My daughter and her then boyfriend spent tens of thousands of dollars on treatment for their dog, Dante, when he was diagnosed with lymphoma. That was money earmarked for college and a wedding. The treatment was expected to extend his life by maybe a year. Today, he is cancer-free and nobody who has met Dante would say the money was poorly spent.
> 
> ...


No, I don't think anyone knows what they're willing to do until they have to decide. I never would have thought I'd take on these kinds of bills. But when I heard the words "bone cancer", I said to my vet "let's not talk numbers, let's talk about quality of life. I'll figure out how to pay for it." 

Mathematically, I spent $174 a day for 10 weeks to keep my dog alive. He's gone now and I'm still paying off the bills. Was it money poorly spent? My parents think so, my friends think so. But I can go to bed every night and while I still miss my dog like crazy, I know that money was not an obstacle in his recovery, and that makes me feel like I did everything I could. If his treatment would have cost $30,000, I now know that I would have figured out a way to pay for it. So personally, I don't think cat man is crazy  I think he really loves his cat and had the ability to make that choice.

I also think it's easier to spend when you feel the money is being *well* spent. I had full confidence in my surgical and oncology teams. In OP's case, when everyone is sitting here telling her that it's very overpriced (because it is), it's probably harder to stomach forking over $6,000 for a "maybe" situation.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well obviously there's more than goes into a decision than JUST money. My above post was really in reference to the situation in the OP - ibuprofen toxicity is a pretty straightforward problem with a pretty straightforward approach to treatment and not a lot of wiggle room for plan B, C, etc to be successful. 

If something costs $5 but has a 2% chance of success, then whether I'm going to pursue it or not will come down to how invasive/distressing it is for my pet. The money won't have anything to do with it. If something costs $1000 but has a 95% chance of success that's going to be a different decision. As well as how much of an advantage the theoretically "best" treatment has over the alternatives and what the risks are of choosing something else.

Along the lines of RonE's roommate - when clients were struggling with whether to pursue expensive diagnostics or treatments, on of my old professors used to ask "Do you want A dog or do you want THIS dog?" to help them clarify their priorities. Many people want A dog. Many people want THIS dog. Plenty of people do way MORE than I would. Plenty of people do way less than I would. I honestly don't think anyone's priorities are any better or worse than anyone else's necessarily, but I do really wish people would be honest about it and not twist "I don't WANT to spend this money" into "I CAN'T afford this."


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

My point of commenting wasn't to refute you, FWIW, it was addressing the 'responsibility' aspect brought up by another poster. There is a lot of gray area in there for me. 

I definitely *do* agree that 'I can't' is ridiculous, unless you hit a vet who won't take payments or credit cards, and I'm not sure those even exist anymore.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh yea, I dig it. The general discussion was evolving a bit though.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> My point of commenting wasn't to refute you, FWIW, it was addressing the 'responsibility' aspect brought up by another poster. There is a lot of gray area in there for me.
> 
> I definitely *do* agree that 'I can't' is ridiculous, unless you hit a vet who won't take payments or credit cards, and I'm not sure those even exist anymore.


Well... even then, it's very easy to get over your head charging thousands of dollars to a credit card that you realistically can't afford to make the payments on. 

I could charge 4k on my card right now if I wanted to, that doesn't mean I could afford to make regular payments to eventually get that paid off at the interest rates CC's charge. 

I could save that pet's life for the moment, but if I'm going into debt I can't support by doing that, that's not really helpful long term.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah, agreed. It's just that at that stage it then becomes a matter of priorities. There's nothing saying those aren't the right priorities (I think they care - I would not do any debt likely to last longer than the life of the dog if treatment were successful - my line, though I'm pretty lucky with a big savings account), it's just that you *CAN*, even if you *shouldn't*, you know?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Well... even then, it's very easy to get over your head charging thousands of dollars to a credit card that you realistically can't afford to make the payments on.
> 
> I could charge 4k on my card right now if I wanted to, that doesn't mean I could afford to make regular payments to eventually get that paid off at the interest rates CC's charge.
> 
> I could save that pet's life for the moment, but if I'm going into debt I can't support by doing that, that's not really helpful long term.


It's all about priorities - which was the point brought up by Sassafras on the last page:



> However, I will tell you from experience that the vast majority of the time, it's actually a matter of priorities and preferring to spend money on something other than veterinary bills rather than truly not being able to afford it. And really, there's truly no shame in a vacation or a data plan or repairing the car or a new refrigerator being a higher priority than veterinary care. How people choose to spend their own money isn't really my concern. But just cop to it and say so instead of moaning about the cost and how you "can't" (vs don't want to) afford it or how the price is too high and veterinarians are money grubbing.


I was willing to put myself in lasting (and somewhat crippling) debt to lengthen my dog's life. Was that helpful long term? Heck no. Am I glad I did it? Heck yes. Other people aren't willing to do that, which is NOT a judgement, just a fact. Most people *can* afford it and simply choose not to - minimum credit card payments for a $4K debt aren't that high. It would just take you a long time to pay it off, with the interest.

What is "helpful" and what is "possible" are two different things (to me) when it comes to affording veterinary care.

ETA: CptJack beat me to it and put it much more succinctly


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, agreed. It's just that at that stage it then becomes a matter of priorities. There's nothing saying those aren't the right priorities (I think they care), it's just that you *CAN*, even if you *shouldn't*, you know?


Well I mean... if it becomes a matter of no longer being able to afford day to day care for that pet (food and shelter, etc) because you're drowning in CC interest payments, I don't know that I would qualify that as something you *can* afford.

I mean, in the moment I guess yes, you can come up with the money to get the thing done, but if in the long term you can't make rent anymore or afford dog food, or maybe the medication they will now require ongoing... I personally wouldn't qualify that as something that the individual *could* afford.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Hiraeth said:


> minimum credit card payments for a $4K debt aren't that high. It would just take you a long time to pay it off, with the interest.
> 
> What is "helpful" and what is "possible" are two different things (to me) when it comes to affording veterinary care.
> 
> ETA: CptJack beat me to it and put it much more succinctly [/SIZE][/FONT]


Well no, paying minimum payments on a CC actually wont pay it off when you account for the compounding interest, you'll just go into more and more debt.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ireth0 said:


> I mean, in the moment I guess yes, you can come up with the money to get the thing done, but if in the long term you can't make rent anymore or afford dog food, or maybe the medication they will now require ongoing... I personally wouldn't qualify that as something that the individual *could* afford.


Well then, that's not the person I'm talking about.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Well no, paying minimum payments on a CC actually wont pay it off when you account for the compounding interest, you'll just go into more and more debt.


Yep, and that's why I think it's a bad idea. It'll also wreck your credit, and all the unpleasant impact of that on the life of you, your human family, and your future pets. Less credit available, not being able to get a house or car loan, etc. 

However, bottom line is, it's not actually going to stop you from buying dog food. You CAN do it. Choosing not to is because you prioritize the future ability to provide care and your financial stability over the immediate medical issue your pet is having. There's nothing wrong with that. 

But it's still a choice and a priority.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I guess for me, whether I -can- make whatever financial purchase also depends on whether I can afford that purchase long term. 

So even though I technically probably -could- go out and get approved for a, say, 400k mortgage and buy a house, if I can't afford the monthly mortgage payments then to me that means I can't afford that house. Even though I physically could purchase it.

It's not a choice or priority, it's 'I can't afford that house'


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

Well I would disagree to the blanket statement that saying they "can't" afford something means that they CAN, they just don't WANT to. I agree with the premise, and think a lot of people really could afford something and choose not to, but at the same time there are quite a few pet owners out there that I'm certain could literally not afford certain things, especially if it's multiple thousands of dollars. Not everyone has a credit card, or even can get one... So the choices that some people have available to them to get some extra cash for something might not be available elsewhere. I just don't think it's fair to lump everyone that says they can't afford something into the same category because it truly ISN'T a choice for some people, no matter how many examples you put here of how you went into debt to save your pets. Semantics, perhaps, but distinct differences. 

Anyway.

Anxious to hear an update on these babies!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

TGKvr said:


> Well I would disagree to the blanket statement that saying they "can't" afford something means that they CAN, they just don't WANT to.


Good thing nobody made a blanket statement, then.


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## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

OK my bad... I took several people saying that the VAST MAJORITY of people just choose not to / don't want to instead of truly can't afford to do (XYZ situation) as a blanket statement. 

 :deadhorse::yield:


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Right, that's not a blanket statement. A blanket statement would be something like "When people say they 'can't' afford something they ALWAYS mean they just don't want to spend the money."

Glad we could clear that up.


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

Hi! checking in! first off, my husband got the dogs from the ER yesterday afternoon. it was a rough night (for me). I was worried about them seizing or just passing away. nope. they played, ate, and took up most of the bed like they usually do. I dropped them off at our regular vet this morning. The vet called and their liver and kidney values are 'normal' so they won't need more IV/FLUIDS. I take them again tomorrow for them to check again. Vet said if the results tomorrow come back normal he thinks they're in the clear, but with kidneys- you never really know until the damage is done. it doesn't show up on tests until the damage is there. we're not COMPLETELY in the clear, but outlook is very good. we'll know in a couple more months when they do bloodwork again. 

As for the costs. We're a family. so there's 2 of us making the financial decisions. For me, my dogs are priceless. if it costs us X amt of money than so be it. But husband has a whole different opinion about that. so it was really rough trying to talk him into seeing it from a different view point. At any rate, i appreciate the well wishes!!!!

ETA: i never said 'I couldn't afford it'. I did say if it came straight out of pocket- no, we couldn't. but we did get that care credit yesterday and we also have a credit card- so yes, we could've paid for it. We'd just have to scale down spending in other areas.


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## mrsawesome (Jan 31, 2015)

Also, something concerning, which i'll probly bring up to vet tomorrow, but maybe you guys have some insight. When i was at the ER yesterday, the lady kept using technical and medical terms with me that i had no idea what any of it meant. So when she weighed the dogs she said the tan one weighed x kilograms and the black x kilograms (tan being heavier). you can clearly tell the black one is heavier. I dismissed it in my head thinking maybe she thinks the black one is Mira (tan dogs name). So i asked, how many pounds is that? she said 18. ok, again, i dismissed it, but still thinking its weird because when they get weighed at regular vet mira is 22 and echo 25. They got weighed at regular vet this morning and Mira (tan one) was at 24lbs, but Echo (black one) was at 27lbs. 18 and 24lbs is quite a bit of difference. Should i be concerned? i don't own a scale at home and i'd kind of like to know, and maybe let one of them know, their scales are OFF. either their scales or off or the vet isn't the brightest.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

> For those appalled by the costs of emergency veterinary care: Clinics now have the same equipment and treatment options that humans have and we, as pet owners, frequently insist on it. I am reluctant to label those charges as a "rip-off," especially since I spend my days reviewing medical claims and records.


I also wonder too if there is a good number of people are younger and have not had the misfortune of having big medical claims for themselves so they have nothing to compare vet bills to. 12 years ago,my husband had a spinal fusion that involved three vertebrae. 7 hour surgery...and a 6 day hospital stay. 12 years ago....the bill for all of that = $80,000. Thank god he was active duty military and it was service connected. The US Government picked up the entire tab for that. Today, I'm willing to wager that figure for the same surgery and treatment would be 6 figures. Recently, I have had outpatient procedures that involved an OR...and I was there in the hospital for less than 6 hours total with processing in, the procedure itself, and the post procedure recovery. The amount billed to our insurance was between $3,000 - $3,500. 

Vet bills aren't the bad in comparison to human medicine. 

That being said, I do have veterinary insurance on both of my dogs for emergencies and major illness just for instances like this advil issue.


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