# Stacking



## TStafford

I'm getting a Dogue de Bordeaux puppy sometime within the next year. I'm planing on showing him, but to be honest I don't have the first clue about what i'm doing. I have been doing research online and I will be doing conformation classes with a lady who shows and trains dogs. I would still like to know a little more about what i'm doing before I get the puppy though. 

Right now i'm on "how in the world do I teach a puppy to stack". Does anyone have any advice or know of any good site to help with better understanding this?

Also any help at all about anything dealing with raising a show dog would be great!


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## Keechak

Get them used to the idea that they will be touched. Touch feet & ears, run your fingers thru their mouth and lift their lips, lift their legs and put them back down (if it's a male make sure to gently run your hand over his scrotum) give lots of treats while doing these things.

If you pick up his foot and he fights you just hold it firmly and distract him with a treat, teach him that it's ok that you can hold his paws.


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## TStafford

Thank you! I was thinking I would also get my dog trainer and other people I know to do some of those things too so he is use to random people touching him. I'm only going to let people I feel safe with do that. I don't want to risk someone doing thing to make my dog scared of being touched.


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## TorachiKatashi

I don't show, but I'm like you that I've been doing a lot of research for my (very far in the) future show dog. I've read up on a lot of methods to teach stacking, but by far the one I've seen which seems the quickest and most effective is to just training "blocks" they're basically just four solid objects, a few inches tall and about the size of your dogs paw such that he can't move his paws without falling off the blocks. You arrange the blocks so that his feet are where you would want them to be while free-stacking, and after several short reps of holding that position, he gains the muscle memory to know exact where his feet should be. A lot of people make their own blocks out of pieces of wood, soup cats, bricks, etc. but if you're like me and not much of a do-it-yourself person, you can find a set online for $50-100.

Just a heads up if you look into it, though, that a lot of the "old school" show people seem to look down on it for no other reason than it being new and easier than when they had to do things back in the day... So if you bring the idea up to your trainer, be prepared to have to fight your case.


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## TStafford

.................


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## RedyreRottweilers

I have used blocks to train several dogs, and they work FABULOUSLY. In a couple weeks, you will see photos of my puppies stacked on blocks. It teaches them very quickly not to move feet, and you can then get puppies to stand out over the front leg and show themselves very nicely.

The other thing to work on is teaching to free stack. 

Here is how I do it:

First, attention. Puppies should be rewarded in some way for all eye contact and attention to you. The more you reward this, the more of it you will get. Start from the very beginning. Rewards can be food, touch, smile, verbal, toys. Reinforce ALL eye contact and attention to you.

Next, work the puppy on setting the hind feet. Start with the puppy having rear feet close to what you want, lined up feet side by side. I ease into the puppy from the front, and back him into a point where the feet are close to what I want, mark and reward, release and praise. Work this until the pup is setting his rear feet well.

Next, back the pup into having the rear feet properly, then ease off the backward pressure on the pup, and see if you can get him to move one front foot forward a bit. Mark and reward all movement towards a stacked position of the front feet, even if it's only a tiny bit. Release and start over with no reward if the pup moves the back feet. Sometimes you will need to reinforce the back feet position several times and then work on moving a front foot or two. Use the bait by putting it right on the pup's nose to help him work his front feet out to where they need to be.

You can practice these techniques with Porter. 

various pix of puppies up on stacking blocks....

Mick from the Choice litter, 8 weeks old.










Grace, 7 weeks










Milty at 8 weeks










Penny, 9 weeks


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## RaeganW

Susan Ailsby has an article on both stacking and gait training (with surprise Toller!):

http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ dogs/writing/confstack.html
http://www.dragonflyllama.com/ dogs/writing/confgait.html


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## TorachiKatashi

Oh my gosh, those pups are so _cute_. I want them. Now. Fedex plzkthx.

But yes, those are exactly what I was talking about. I've seen pictures of pups even younger than those above (also Rotties, funny enough), I think the youngest was 4 weeks. Obviously you wouldn't have them hold the pose for very long at all at that age, but it shows how you can start such training pretty much the day your pup comes home, or even your breeder could start.

I actually read both of those links on the same day that I learned about the blocks, and what I really found is that the method described in those links takes so... _long_. It seems like a really archaic, slow way to do it. To each their own, though.


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## RaeganW

Actually it's pretty close to what Red described above, just written in more detail. From the heading on Ailsby's article:

_Professionals know that training a dog for the Specials ring is, in fact, as complicated as training a dog for Utility. The more a dog knows about how to do his job in the ring, the closer he is to that elusive "Ch" title._

A dog may know how to stand, but that's a little different than knowing how to stack itself foursquare, know what I mean? I agree that the blocks are a great tool and if I ever train a dog for conformation I would certainly use them, but they don't make the dog find the position on their own. The dog has to understand what it's job is, and it's more than just standing in the way a human has put them.

ETA: The job of stacking is two parts: find your position and stay there. The blocks are best used for the stay there part. I think you can always handstack your dog, but I know that I am more impressed by a dog that can set themselves up. It says to me that they're better built because they will choose to stand four square. For some dogs that's just not the most comfortable way to stand, and so it's harder to get them to do it (and to stay there too, I've seen plenty of dogs say "no I want my foot HERE.")


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## TorachiKatashi

From what I understand (and Redyre can correct me if I'm totally off-base), the blocks DO teach the dog where to put his feet on his own because after so many reps, they gain that muscle memory to know exactly where their feet are supposed to go. Of course, I'm sure that a lot of the veteran trainers can do that "old-school" method just as fast and effectively as they could when using blocks, so in the end, it all comes down to preference.

This is a bit off-topic, so anyone can feel free to PM me if they would prefer, but... As I said, I don't show, so can someone explain to me what "Specials" is? I heard that term a LOT when I was doing research, but couldn't find anything that actually explained what it was.


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## RedyreRottweilers

Free stacking, which is the dog positioning herself, is completely separate from teaching hand stacking. The blocks teach the puppy NOT to move his feet from where you put them, so you end up with a dog who is VERY firm on a hand stack.

It also helps the dog once they find their own freestack to understand more completely that once in position they should not move feet unless you ask them to.

A "Special" is a dog who is already a finished Champion who is competing for Best of Breed and the right to represent the breed in the Group competition.

Most of the time when people say they have a Special it also means the dog is being campaigned for *rankings.*


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## TStafford

That you everyone! This has been some great help, and I have a much better understanding of I will need to do. Now I get to work on some of this with Porter, though I don't know how he's going to feel about using blocks. 

Well Porter is not the least bit happy about being my leanring tool. He didn't know "stand" so we started working on that. He did pick it up pretty fast and even holds it until I tell him "alright". Now i'm trying to work on him letting me move his legs, and it isn't fun at all. It's going to be awhile before he's alright with having his legs so far out behind him, which isn't far at all.

btw....Porter hates you all!


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## Xeph

Biggest thing is, when you move their front legs to set them up, do NOT grab by the pastern, grab by the elbow. I also set my dogs rear by grabbing at the "tip" of the hock, not at the knee.


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## TStafford

Xeph said:


> Biggest thing is, when you move their front legs to set them up, do NOT grab by the pastern, grab by the elbow. I also set my dogs rear by grabbing at the "tip" of the hock, not at the knee.


I was doing that and that is what Porter didn't like. Why is it that you have to move their legs that way?


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## Keechak

It's just easier to control their foot placement that way.


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## Xeph

If you grab at the pastern, you have no control over the leg. It's very floppy, and the dog has to bend its leg at the elbow, so when you set the dog's foot down, the dog may toe out or not come down straight from the elbow and may post.


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## RedyreRottweilers

What you are doing when you are stacking a dog is transferring the weight off the foot/leg you are moving onto the leg on the opposite side, and then you want the weight back on the leg/foot you are moving as you set it.

Control of the head is EVERYTHING when you are hand stacking a dog. You MUST keep upward tension on the collar. So, step one, with a trained dog, is to set the right front. This is the only leg you will set with your right hand, so set it first. Do this by gently directing the dog's head away from you towards the left. By taking the leg by the elbow, the dog can keep a certain amount of weight on it, it can keep the leg STRAIGHT, and then as you set the foot down, at the same time you bring the head back towards you to put the dog's weight on that leg.

Then you switch hands on the collar, and pulling the dog's head slightly towards you, take the left elbow and set the left front. Then you want to regroup, neck up the collar to make sure it's up under the jaw, make sure you have slight upward tension on the collar to steady the dog, and then you set the rear, left first, and then right.

I will try to get a clip for you to show you how and why it is important to use the elbow to set the front legs.


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## Xeph

That's a good way to do it. I will say that I've never held my hand on the collar while stacking the dogs I've shown though. I hold the muzzle or just beneath the jaw bone (just easier for me I guess), and then transfer my hand to the collar after they're set.


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## RedyreRottweilers

My clip has about an hour and 10 minutes to go!


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## l2andom

Where do you get these said blocks? My next puppy I would like to try and show him also. But I've never really dealt with any of this and it seems very intimidating. I do plan on taking classes and such, and I am glad that other people are learning also . Makes me feel a bit better, but seems tough. How long did it take you guys/gals before you felt comfortable with stacking? And is it much harder to teach a free stack?


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