# My name is Ron and I'm a recovering dog food obsessive



## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

TL;DR: These days I'm trusting people who keep kennels of sled dogs and gun dogs for suggestions about what to feed and dentists who run websites not so much. "Nutrients not ingredients" is my mantra and I no longer believe that the ingredients on the label tell us much at all about how the food actually "works." Skip to the end to learn what I'm finding out does work.

13 years ago my favorite cat was diagnosed with possible spleen cancer and he died on the operating table. I was so distraught I convinced myself that eating Fancy Feast the last year of his life had killed him (it was probably the operation). So I jumped on this merry go round so many of us find ourselves on when searching for the perfect "natural" food. I'm happy to say I think I've finally jumped off. Maybe there should be a support group called "Dog Food Obsessives Anonymous."

That year (2002) I adopted two cats and my first dog. I decided that they would eat nothing but the best and be healthy forever. The cats ate canned food 90% of the time. They didn't like raw or The Honest Kitchen. We finally settled on a rotation of PetGuard, Innova/Evo, Halo and Weruva. Expensive stuff but it was probably worth it; unlike my cats from the 70s and 80s these cats never had fleas and never had a UTI. Both of them passed from kidney failure at the age of 15 last year. What they ate had nothing to do with their dying.

I fed my rescued cocker a lot of raw meaty bones, muscle meat balanced with calcium and Dogzyme products, fish oil, and some dry food, mainly because my wife didn't want to handle raw meat. I have always refused to pay $3 or $4 a pound for kibble (we buy smaller bags) because once you pay that much you might as well buy "real" food. So Dylan ate his share of Merrick/Whole Earth Farms, Taste of the Wild, Holistic Select, and others. I never fed the same food two bags in a row and he continued to get raw a little less than half the time.

When we'd had him six years (he was probably 9 at the time) he had an episode of explosive diarrhea and was never well again. Despite all my research into the "best" foods, his poops had never been all that I might wish for and now they were shot to hell. It's a miracle the poor dog was able to hold it in the house the last two years of his life. 

Now, in addition to wanting to avoid mainstream food, I was on a quest to cure him "holistically." After my conventional vet (whom I trusted) eliminated parasites and I reluctantly attempted a trial of SD Z/D to no effect, she suggested prednisone. No way Jose!! That cure would be worse than the disease.

So I spent six months with different homeopathic vets trying to find a remedy. It was fascinating to learn about but totally ineffectual. Out of desperation and curiosity I would occasionally feed Dylan Pedigree or Dog Chow and the diarrhea would actually improve somewhat, but I couldn't bring myself to feed him a food with "those* ingredients. 

Finally we went to a specialist who I thought was great (with me anyway) and agreed to the prednisone. By that time Dylan was so debilitated he needed sub-q fluids daily and Vitamin B shots a couple of times a week. When he could no longer hold it indoors we reluctantly let him go. In the end, the prednisone made no difference at all for better or worse.

The point is, none of what was promised by the healthy food experts worked for this dog worth a damn. I'll spare you the details of my next dog's 7 years of bad poop, but suffice it to say that Benji also ate nothing but "4 and 5 Star" kibble along with fresh food and quality canned. AND IT MADE NOT ONE BIT OF DIFFERENCE. For the last two years of his life I had to home cook for him because if he even looked at commercial food in the bowl he had explosive diarrhea. Home cooking, appropriately balanced, only helped us to avoid completely liquid stools. And after surgery for a benign rectal tumor he was totally incontinent and senile to boot. We let him crap in the house for three months before we let him go.

So three months ago I got my third dog and to be perfectly honest I was looking forward to a "normal" dog that could eat kibble, canned and fresh foods. That I would not have to cook for and who could thrive without eating raw bones. 

I started Emma on Orijen puppy for the heck of it and it was ok but I wasn't going to pay $5 a pound for dry dog food. We tried Wellness puppy (not Core) and it was a disaster. She didn't like it and her poops could have come out of Benji. It was $4/pound.

I learned about how Annamaet and Dr. Tim's were fed to highly active dogs in competition and Googling led me to discover brands like Victor, Exclusive, Innukshuk and Redpaw I'd never heard of and which you can't get in NYC (where French Bulldogs are now the most popular breed). What almost all of these foods had in common was that they included grain, usually corn, often "by products" as well, and they cost a fraction of what Orijen and Ziwi Peak go for. 

But aside from these foods from small manufacturers, thread after thread on message boards devoted to gun dogs, retrievers, beagles and other canine athletes extolled the virtues of . . . Pro Plan, usually the Sport/Performance line. I mean 10 out of 10 posters in ten page threads had fed it and maybe 1 in a hundred had a bad experience. The most common complaint was that the food was "too expensive" to feed a kennel of working dogs but if they could afford it they would. Many of the posters had fed PP for thirty years and raised countless litters on it, and if they had ever experimented with Canidae or Merrick, most came back to PP.

A couple of things struck me, apart from their almost universal enthusiasm: not a single one attributed any illness whatsoever ("allergies," GI problems, eye goop, diarrhea, etc.) to feeding Pro Plan, and *everyone* said the dogs had the best poop they'd ever seen on it. 

So a few weeks ago I started feeding Emma ( a very active 11 mo Jack Russell mix) Pro Plan Focus Chicken and Rice Puppy (28% protein, 18% fat). She came to me a little skinny so she gets a cup a day (~500 calories) with some canned or an egg or cottage cheese or sardines added. She's also been getting some Nature's Variety raw with the PP a couple of times a week because it was on sale at Petco.

She loves the food and most important to me, her poops have been great from the start and *vanishingly* small. 

For the first time in 13 years I will probably feed the same thing for the next several months, moving on to one of the PP all life stages "Sport" foods. I won't feed the Savor line with the soy-based shreds nor will I probably feed the new PP grain free foods. They seem expensive and I'm no longer convinced grain free has anything to offer in and of itself.

Chewy has amazing prices on Pro Plan. Most of the flavors are $13.49 for 6lbs, which I think is reasonable but the last bag I bought of Sport Advanced formula was $6.46 before I applied a $5 coupon from Purina.

I would still like to try Annamaet, Dr. Tim's and Farmina but I am *never* going to fool around with the likes of Evo or Blue Buffalo or Wellness again. I asked Dr. Tim in an email about rotating protein sources to avoid food allergies, and his answer was inconclusive "based on the science." So if I have to feed some kind of Pro Plan for the rest of Emma's life along with canned, fresh and raw for different proteins I'm okay with it. For the first time, I believe "if it ain't broke why fix it." 

My name is Ron and I'm a recovering dog food obsessive.


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

Glad you found something that works for your dog. That's all that matters to me. So long as the dog is doing good and thriving then that's all that matters, not specifically the food itself. I really wanted to use brands like Annamaet, Dr. tims, etc and do recommend them to other people. Unfortunately, my dog seems to blow up like a blimp on any foods that are too high in carbs.

My dog is currently eating an Acana food that she's doing great on BUT once more she seems to be keeping weight too easy. Will probably switch back to Orijen when I'm done with this bag. I also add premade raw to her meals and she does so much better. While I would love to use one of the more "tried and true" brands that most everyone has success with, it seems low carb options mainly come from the "high end 5 star" foods.

Farmina is my number one favorite food no doubt. For whatever reason Onyx started to really do bad on it though. She had the most disgusting foul smelling soft stool (sorry for that description  ). I'm thinking maybe potatoes need to be avoided for her. Just goes to show that no one food fits all. Everyone should simply feed what keeps their own dog healthy.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Although I feed my current dog Farmina and Annamaet, I fed my last dog Purina Pro Plan, Nutro Natural Choice and a few others and she looked and did great. 

Why do I feed Zoey the foods I feed ? Because she had ear infections and UTIs as a pup and these foods seem to agree with her and she is doing well on them. And the other foods cost about the same so it's not a stretch of the budget.

If you're really interested on the whole dog food thing then read "Dog Food Logic". But I agree if it ain't broke don't fix it.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Dog Person said:


> If you're really interested on the whole dog food thing then read "Dog Food Logic". But I agree if it ain't broke don't fix it.


I've read "Dog Food Logic" more than once because I don't really like the way it's written and I have a hard time getting her point sometimes. She seems to use a lot of words to tell us things we already know about the commercial pet food industry, albeit without all the histrionics about the big companies poisoning our dogs. 

My takeaway: all of the foods are more alike than different and all of them will theoretically sustain a healthy dog. The gun dog guys say pretty much the same thing with a lot fewer words.

I think the main point of my long screed was that with three dogs over 13 years (which is admittedly a small sample) I have never found a food that makes a sick dog healthier or a healthy dog less healthy. How they do seems to have a lot more to do with their genes than nutrition. So these days I'm all about the poop 

And with all due respect to "MarieLovesChis" it's comments like "Farmina is my number one favorite food no doubt. For whatever reason Onyx started to really do bad on it though. She had the most disgusting foul smelling soft stool . . ." that make me glad to be in recovery. What good is any food if your dog does "really bad on it," which I think for most people comes down to poop long before they start to attribute goopy eyes, dull fur, flaky skin and itching to the feed?

I have an image of all 400 of Purina's vets and food scientists gathered in an auditorium to study stool samples and exclaiming, "By George, I think we've got it!"


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

I say that I still have no problem recommending Farmina because I have seen the great results it produces in many, many dogs. People's dogs I know in person and from great online friends. Just because MY dog no longer agrees with it, by no means does that make it a bad food.

She ate it for about 8 months and I'm very grateful for the time she could handle it. I won't go into a long story but my dog was obese. I had cut her food back on numerous brands, so far back that my vet said to stop because I would risk her not getting enough nutrition from her meals. This dog was still extremely overweight with no health problems causing it. In those months that she ate Farmina, she shed all of the extra weight and remained fit. For the short time she was on it, she was at her best. That is why I still think the food is great quality food. I won't bash a food just because it isn't the best for my specific dog anymore.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

MarieLovesChis said:


> I won't bash a food just because it isn't the best for my specific dog anymore.


Fair enough and one of the reasons I decided to stick my neck out as a Pro Plan "evangelist." Who knows if 8 months from now Pro Plan will "stop working"? Stranger things have happened.

But while it is working I no longer feel the need to "date" other attractive foods, such as the very attractive Farmina, because if I spend good $$ on it and it doesn't agree with Emma I'll feel like I shouldn't have bothered. 

If and when Pro Plan is no longer the bee's knees, my next options are Dr. Tim's, Annamaet, Farmina and Fromm's Gold (in that order, for no justifiable reason  )


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

According to the author the science of nutrition is just that. There are some fallacies and some truths that are in various forums and it is good for people to read/know what it is. Ultimately having a person's dog doing well on a particular food is what it's all about.

Your comment of all foods are more alike than different is not my takeaway from the book at all, it's just the opposite. She is pointing you toward knowing that dogs can utilize plant protein but they need meat protein to make up the amino acids they can't fabricate themselves. How a food with very little meat in it does that, I don't know but a dog needs those amino acids. But your comment that a dog's genes have more to do then nutrition is pretty much spot on for the most part. The exceptions being sick dogs needing special diets. And it has been scientifically proven I believe (per the author) that feeding less carbs to a dog (and people) with cancer may actually help battle the cancer (may be cancer specific).

Does that mean that feeding Purina vs feeding Farmina will give a dog better or worse outcome in life - probably not. Actually feeding Purina means that their 400 scientists are actually studying dog poop whereas a small manufacturer is not!


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## MarieLovesChis (Mar 21, 2014)

philovance said:


> Fair enough and one of the reasons I decided to stick my neck out as a Pro Plan "evangelist." Who knows if 8 months from now Pro Plan will "stop working"? Stranger things have happened.
> 
> But while it is working I no longer feel the need to "date" other attractive foods, such as the very attractive Farmina, because if I spend good $$ on it and it doesn't agree with Emma I'll feel like I shouldn't have bothered.
> 
> If and when Pro Plan is no longer the bee's knees, my next options are Dr. Tim's, Annamaet, Farmina and Fromm's Gold (in that order, for no justifiable reason  )


And that's exactly what I feel most people should do - just stick with what works best. If Onyx didn't start having problems with Farmina, I would have never switched. I know lots of people recommend rotating dog food brands but.. eh whatever. I like sticking with what works. I feel she gets enough variety with raw anyway.

The experience with Farmina has definitely made me have "back ups" in mind though, just incase something like that happens again. Hopefully not though. Acana and Orijen are one of the few foods I've been able to repeatedly go back to with no issues. I've learned to just stick with it now, even if it doesn't have much science to back it up. What works, works


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Dog Person said:


> Your comment of all foods are more alike than different is not my takeaway from the book at all, it's just the opposite. She is pointing you toward knowing that dogs can utilize plant protein but they need meat protein to make up the amino acids they can't fabricate themselves. How a food with very little meat in it does that, I don't know but a dog needs those amino acids.


To your question and why I say that foods that meet AAFCO guidelines are more alike than different, here is an exchange from one of the gun dog forums with a moderator (Ezzy) who worked in the dog food industry for many years.

_Hondo wrote:
I was wondering if a high protein/fat % dog food is always better? Hondo

I would think it depends upon what kind of protein. Animal source? Yes. Soy...Plant Protein? No.

Charlie

*The problem is that the dog doesn't use protein but uses the amino acids that make up what we call protein. They don't care where those individual amino acids come from. The reason we use animal and plant sources is they tend to carry different acids and we can balance out the essential ones with a lower total amount.* Thus many of the dog foods that use both sources may only need to have a 25% protein level to supply as much of the amino acids as a feed with just animal or plant sources of 30% protein. Until they start labeling each of the essential Amino Acids we are pretty much in the dark as to how much is usable and what that usable level even is.

Ezzy_

Is a high protein/fat % dog food always better? • Health and Nutrition : Gun Dog Forum 2013 - http://is.gd/Jmtjwq

So assuming we're talking about a healthy adult dog here with no special needs, this explains why Ol' Roy, Pedigree and Dog Chow don't kill most of the thousands of dogs who live their lives eating what I agree is inferior food. Now if a dog is predisposed to illness that nutrition can improve she should probably not be eating Ol' Roy exclusively. But exaggerating to make a point, there's no scientific proof that she'll get better on Orijen than Pro Plan because more of the protein is sourced from meat. And for a healthy dog who is a house pet and moderately active a food that derives much/most of its protein from plant sources may be adequate. Bottom line: supermarket foods are not in and of themselves a death warrant because they include grains and derive much of their amino acids from plant sources (cf. all the legumes in high end grain free kibbles) and horrors, by-products.

I have long contended that a dog will often do better on a diet of middle of the road kibble (say Diamond Naturals) supplemented with moderate amounts of people food such as healthy table scraps, canned fish, eggs and cottage cheese than a dog fed the "best" grain free kibble exclusively month in and month out.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

As long as I'm cementing my legacy as the "Pro Plan guy" here's an interesting factoid for those of us who accept website reviews as gospel. One of the biggest slams against Pro Plan is that chicken is listed as the first ingredient rather than chicken meal so that once the chicken is processed and its water weight removed the meat would be far down the list after the grain sources of protein. The problem is (and this was news to me) the AAFCO allows manufacturers to list ingredients by weight either pre-processing (which is what the "reviewers" have assumed) or "as fed," which is post-processing.

Here is an explanation by Vickie Lamb, who apparently is one of the most highly regarded retriever trainers in the US, who followed up on this issue herself:

_. . . I checked with two companies, . . . Purina and Eukanuba, and both adjust in cooking for wet-weight loss so that *the ingredient emerges as number one after cooking*. THE FACT THAT THE WEBSITE DOESN'T STATE THAT SOME COMPANIES WILL ADJUST FOR THIS IS IN THE END MISLEADING IN THE WAY THEY HAVE WORDED WHAT THEY WROTE. If people don't read really closely they will jump to the wrong conclusion about all companies._

So in fact Purina is not being misleading in listing chicken first, unless you are a conspiracy theorist and assume they lie about *everything*.

While she was at it Vickie threw in another ringing endorsement for Pro Plan:

_As far as my own dogs and my own choices, after my own considerable research (not just by the book) I've chosen Pro Plan for quite a number of reasons and I'm very happy with that decision and my dogs over the years on PP have shown the same by good health and condition from puppyhood into twilight years and ability and desire to perform in those years as well in various hunting/sporting breeds. _

retrievertraining.net forum thread - Pro Plan smoe plan - Page 9 - http://is.gd/9KdG0W


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I feed raw because I have a sick cat who thrives on it (was given only a month left and has now outlived that expiry by 4 years and is acting like a kitten) and it's just easier to switch everybody than it is to keep her away from dog kibble

However when the dogs were on kibble I found only 3 brands that gave Manna good poops and skin acana/orijen (made by same people so I count them as 1), GO fresh, and PC nutrition first. Everything else gave Manna flakes and cow paddys. 

My mothers dog only does well on Royal Canine kangaroo and raw (severe allergy case)

and before that my huskies ate every kibble under the sun (what ever was cheaper) plus table scraps and didn't have issues

My grandmother cooked whole meals for her dogs and he lived to be 18 (was an Eskie x golden) not the most dog formulated meals but whatever she had for supper.

So I'm thinking genetics


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

I feed TOTW since that is what one of mine does the best on, she can't do grains or chicken--Tested and proven that they cause allergy in her-- it is also much easer to have all on a food they all can stand. My other two seem to be able to eat anything and not have issues.

I am glad that she like potatoes (sweet) since that is the only treats I have found that she does well on-- can't even give her milkbones like the other two


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

You are not alone thinking that! I found a page with a little note from a vet who wondered why some dogs fed some cheap kibble looked awful but others fed the same kibble looked great.

He learned to ask and what else? The dogs supplemented with some fresh foods looked good, the dogs fed just kibble looked awful. That's the power of fresh food along with the guaranteed minerals and vitamins of the kibble. Page is gone but if you put thepetcenter.com/imtop/nutritioncomments.html into the wayback machine it comes up. Quote from that page if it doesn't work. _" In every single case where the dog looked good, the owners were also feeding table scraps or left-overs like chicken, meat, bacon, eggs. In every single case where the pet was being fed only a cheap, grain-based pet food...no table scraps or treats... the pet would show signs of less than optimum health. Our entire hospital staff could predict which pets were on a cheap food and which pets were fed well; we could even guess which brand the dog ate with 80% accuracy... before we asked the owner what they fed. We called these unfortunate, grain-fed dogs "CORNDOGS". "_

I also found an interesting study that showed that dogs do better on chicken than they do on corn gluten meal protein. Done by IAMS a diet with 100% chicken protein kept lean muscle better than a diet with 100% corn gluten or a diet with 50% chicken protein and 50% corn gluten. Probably find this if you google "Understanding Animal-Based Proteins in Dog Foods IAMS". I suspect the amino acids are just fine, it is all the other stuff that goes with the amino acids in plant based proteins that don't work well with dogs. Or maybe combining incomplete plant proteins makes for a complete protein but some non essential amino acids are more valuable than others and better found in meats? No idea.

I think you are feeding your dog really well. Smart people do what works best for the pet whether it comes in gold plated bags or not.

I fed expensive low protein stuff like Wellness and Canidae over Science Diet because it worked better for my dogs. Didn't really see much high protein stuff around back then but did fail feeding EVO back when it first came out so I went back to what worked. On fresh cooked or raw my dogs thrive so that is what they get. Max stopped tolerating raw near the end of his life so I cooked for him. I started feeding fresh because of the melamine contamination scandal in 2007 and I had a dog just diagnosed with kidney failure. I know the recalls had absolutely nothing to do with her illness but it sure felt good to be able to pamper her for her last few years.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Kathyy said:


> You are not alone thinking that! I found a page with a little note from a vet who wondered why some dogs fed some cheap kibble looked awful but others fed the same kibble looked great.
> 
> He learned to ask and what else? The dogs supplemented with some fresh foods looked good, the dogs fed just kibble looked awful. That's the power of fresh food along with the guaranteed minerals and vitamins of the kibble. Page is gone but if you put thepetcenter.com/imtop/nutritioncomments.html into the wayback machine it comes up. Quote from that page if it doesn't work. _" In every single case where the dog looked good, the owners were also feeding table scraps or left-overs like chicken, meat, bacon, eggs. In every single case where the pet was being fed only a cheap, grain-based pet food...no table scraps or treats... the pet would show signs of less than optimum health. Our entire hospital staff could predict which pets were on a cheap food and which pets were fed well; we could even guess which brand the dog ate with 80% accuracy... before we asked the owner what they fed. We called these unfortunate, grain-fed dogs "CORNDOGS". "_
> 
> I also found an interesting study that showed that dogs do better on chicken than they do on corn gluten meal protein. Done by IAMS a diet with 100% chicken protein kept lean muscle better than a diet with 100% corn gluten or a diet with 50% chicken protein and 50% corn gluten. Probably find this if you google "Understanding Animal-Based Proteins in Dog Foods IAMS". I suspect the amino acids are just fine, it is all the other stuff that goes with the amino acids in plant based proteins that don't work well with dogs. Or maybe combining incomplete plant proteins makes for a complete protein but some non essential amino acids are more valuable than others and better found in meats? No idea.


Great post! I think we're all liberating ourselves from the tyranny of ingredient labels and taboos.

There's no doubt in my mind that meat protein will do more to build lean muscle and stamina than plant proteins. That's presumably the difference between the Pro Plan Sport/Performance line and Beneful (along with food coloring and a lot of other extraneous additives). It's why Dr. Tim justifiably promotes the fact that over 90% of the protein in his formulas is derived from meat rather than grains. 

I'm the first to admit that Purina is creating formulas to meet a price point as well as a market segment. I'm sure the prices they pay for corn, wheat gluten and by-products creates profit margins that keep Nestle's stock holders happy while keeping the food less expensive that Orijen. But I honestly believe that with any given product from them you pretty much get what you pay for. If you wouldn't feed your kids Twinkies every day after school you probably don't want Beneful. But if you're on food stamps and adopted a puppy from the local pound so your shy 7 year old has a playmate, I don't think you'd be doing wrong by that dog to feed Puppy Chow. Especially if in the process of teaching the child about nutrition you add in fresh meat, cheese, fish and eggs. 

I started this thread because for years we've been told by people like Susan Thixton, Ann Martin and Ian Billinghurst that feeding commercial diets from big companies was poisoning our pets and that the big international conglomerates knew it and didn't care. That the only way to ensure our dogs' health was to feed raw or at least a grain free kibble without by-products or beet pulp. So we spent more than we really wanted to on one pricey designer food after another, often co-packed by Diamond who we also came to distrust, from a company in business for only a few years and probably controlled by an investment bank. And one by one the best of those smaller companies, starting with Hill's and Iams and then later Eagle, Natura, Old Mother Hubbard and most recently Merrick sold out, to be replaced at the top of our list by Orijen/Acana and Ziwi Peak, and if we're "in the know," by Annamaet, Farmina and Dr. Tim's. And many many times we had to throw out those expensive foods because not only didn't they make our dogs "better," they often ended up doing worse.

So I'm not saying that every dog should be on Pro Plan because I've suddenly discovered it works for Emma. What I am saying is that there is no reason in the world to avoid Pro Plan and perhaps some very good reasons to try it. Surprised the hell out of me.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

philovance said:


> As long as I'm cementing my legacy as the "Pro Plan guy" here's an interesting factoid for those of us who accept website reviews as gospel. One of the biggest slams against Pro Plan is that chicken is listed as the first ingredient rather than chicken meal so that once the chicken is processed and its water weight removed the meat would be far down the list after the grain sources of protein. The problem is (and this was news to me) the AAFCO allows manufacturers to list ingredients by weight either pre-processing (which is what the "reviewers" have assumed) or "as fed," which is post-processing.
> 
> Here is an explanation by Vickie Lamb, who apparently is one of the most highly regarded retriever trainers in the US, who followed up on this issue herself:
> 
> ...


Personally I don't think Purina purposely sells stuff to kill dogs, if I had to feed my dogs Purina I would and have in the past. Honestly I don't know enough about animal nutrition because I am quoting an author, obviously you don't either because you're quoting people on a dog forum/dog trainer. I read the book to learn something, I got something different than you. Your dogs do well on Purina my dog does well on other food. My opinion and its just that are that some companies may produce a better quality food and I feed my dog those foods. Any of the food that follows the AAFCO recommendations should keep a dog alive; as I said Purina certainly has the resources to do studies whereas another company may not. Some of the stuff not in other brands like corn gluten meal can be utilized by a healthy dog but the companies are using them as buzz words just like grain free; if your dog can't eat corn, chicken or grains then there are alternatives.

As far as feeding table scraps - yes, I fed my last dog when she hit 10 YO cooked human chicken to get her to eat. My thinking is the Kibble which was following AAFCO recommendations (Nutro Natural Choice) was giving my dog all the nutrients she needed and the chicken gave her added protein, fat and enticed her to eat ... she ate which is all that I cared about. And if need be I would do it for this dog.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

I couldn't agree with you more, Ron! 

It took me about two years recently to get me to where I am with what I feed my dogs. I would spend HOURS researching and reading and emailing and asking about this food and that food. Feeding Orijen or Evo or Wellness (-and so many others). I spent years eating cereal and Mac n cheese so I could buy my dogs raw meat and supplements or the best latest and greatest premix, dehydrated food or kibble. 

My dogs didn't do great on those, sad to say! So much cannon butt. Vomiting. Poor hair coat, yeasty skin, poop eating! 

I've been really happy with middle of the road foods! With grains and corn and wheat! And so have the dogs. 

First and foremost I listen to the dogs. Poop, skin, coat has to stay in good shape. I've found that for my particular pack of dogs that's Fromm Gold (I want to also try classic), Precise Naturals, Purina Beyond, and (eek!) Hills Ideal Balace and better yet plain old science diet adult! 

I also mix in yogurt, canned dog food of those same brands, Sardines, salmon, cooked meats and veggies in the crock pot, eggs, fruit, etc. about 20% of their diet is the toppers. 

I was really terrified the first time I got a small bag of science diet. Like racing heart of terror when i put it in their bowl. For years I called it science death. I was desperate to find a food to help two of my dogs tummies. Overnight best poop I ever saw for them. And nothing bad happened! 

So, Ron, I feel ya, and I'm with you 100%! It's now very annoying to see how over the top dog food companies have gone to get the attention of consumers. I look at nutrient profiles first , ingredients next (for us soy causes farting lol) and then try it out. I'm hoping pet food companies don't lose their minds completely trying to please the consumers who think their dogs should only eat the finest cuts of meat with vegetables and the latest her de jour. really ruins the foods. 

Live and learn. Funny how at the beginning of my journey I also went to the gun dog forums to see how their dogs did. These dogs WORK. Mine do not work!! But if they all swear by PPP and these dogs work all day, something is working. 

I'm happy to be eating food a little more appropriate for humans now :relaxed:


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Great Post! So honest. I do have to say I got this image in my head of a pet owner standing outside a pet store with cash in hand asking someone to buy a cheaper kibble for their dog so they would not be caught doing it. Just like teens do in front of liquor stores. 

I think what the smartest dog food companies do ( do not have to be the best one) is hire a very good ad exec to write the ads and a catchy jingle. 

Heck back in the day, family dogs lived to an old age on Alpo and Gravy Train. Grandma's chihuahua lived to be 20.5 YO on Wheaties/milk for breakfast and table scraps for dinner. 

It is about how well your dog does on a food.

Great post! Let me know when meetings are, I think I need to become a member.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I love this post.

I got obsessive about food for a while, too. For me it wasn't so much that I attributed everything to diet or played around with it, but somehow I had connected the amount of money I spent on a bag of dog food (or to feed my dogs at all) with how good a dog owner I was, and how much I loved my dogs, period. It was crazy, asinine, and wrong. 

I had a short term situation come up where I had to feed my dog some 'middle of the road', maybe even low end, grain inclusive food (one of the sports foods). I felt horrible about it, but I did it. And by the end of that bag, my dogs had better poop, better fur, the fat dogs had lost a little weight, and the way too thin dog had put on some. The dogs who were 'blah' about food were eating it better. They were NOTICEABLY in better shape all around. I (mostly) got over myself about then.

Then we spent a week on vacation and figured we'd just buy dog food there so as not to have to haul it with us. We ended up with Purina One True Instinct. The dogs went NUTS for it and did well on it, though a week probably isn't a good trial. It's going into the 'rotation' for when I need to be able to buy food at the grocery store. 

I spend about 1/3 as much on dog food as I used to, my dogs have suffered not one single bad effect and are better now than they have ever been, condition wise. I can find other ways to spend money on them and sooth my insecurities and validate myself to myself


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

My three thrive on ProPlan too . . . we do the salmon one. Shinier coat than the chicken one. Nice firm poop with both.

I found _Dog Food Logic_ annoying. Pedantic talk about scientific method (I taught science, I've given those lectures). . . then she goes and tells anecdotes as evidence. I do enjoy her blog, though (thesciencedog.com). Lots of debunking the BS that goes on in dogfood marketing . . . and some interesting discussion as well.


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## Kritter (Jan 28, 2015)

I love this post! My name is Kristin and I am a dog food obsessive too. However, I feed mostly raw. I have heard several dog owners praise Purina Pro Plan. I checked out the ingredients for the umpteenth time (because I feed kibble 2x per week). And I still think the ingredients are crap. Has anyone considered that those who develop these products are no different than drug manufacturers, who figure out how to manipulate a system to get the desired results? Call them dog food scientists or nutritionists, whatever works. I manipulate my dogs system by their poops too Ron, one requires more pumpkin or eggshell, or less liver than the other, to put it mildly. Not saying I would not resort to PP if needed, but I do think the more natural, less commercial, route takes more effort and observation than scooping kibble into a bowl. The added genetics component compounds it big time. BUT, whatever works for your dogs is the IT for you, which I think is the ultimate takeaway from what everyone on this post has offered.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Love this post because I've been through the wringer with foods over the years as well and probably used to research WAYYYY too much. While I still won't CHOOSE to feed a food like Beneful, Moist n Meaty, etc (I just... think they're gross, and the artificial colors really turn me off). I have no issue with some Purina brands. In fact, I would choose Purina over a lot of the holistic companies out there. I did purchase a bag of Purina Sensitive Stomach because I heard good things but both Jackson and my moms dog Lola wouldn't touch it. They do however love Purina Beyond so I often buy that in a pinch and rotate with the Acana that I typically feed.

I continue to feed Acana because well... it just works best for my dog. I've switched around a bit through the years but always come back to Acana. He refused to eat Dr. Tim's when I tried it as well as Annamaet which is unfortunate because I like both brands.

I also find he gets a bit chubbier on foods that are 'grain-heavy' (I don't mind some grains, at all, in fact I preferred when the Acana Singles foods had oats in them, was disappointed when they added a bunch of pea and lentils). So I just kind of stick with what I know works best. But if I had a dog that ONLY did well on Purina, I wouldn't hesitate to feed it at all.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

See, I had the opposite experience. I started Kabota on grain inclusive foods and the ear infections were endless. Cutting out grains fixed that. 

I had him on TOTW because I didn't see a reason to spend so much on dog food. TOTW is the same as Acana, just less fancy, right? Their both grain free, so no difference, right? Then I ordered a bag of TOTW and didn't get it when I expected to, so I ran to the pet store to get a small bag of something to tide him over and the owner very kindly gave me a few sample bags of Acana for free (they're supposed to be $2.99). Kabota really liked it, so when I ran out of the TOTW, I decided to pay the store owner back for her kindness by buying a bag of Acana, though the price made me cringe. A week into the bag, my husband and I both noticed that Kabota had so much more energy. It was like someone flipped a switch, it was that sudden and that extreme.

So, yeah, my little rescue mutt does best on expensive, grain free food. So I buy it.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Really enjoying this post. Especially since I've been freaking myself out trying to find a food my future large breed puppy can have. . I've been driving myself insane. Lol.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

Some people are lucky and have dogs that do perfectly fine on cheap lower quality foods. Personally I have dogs that showed huge improvements when switched to high end food. One had severe allergies that cleared up, and all of them lost fat and put on muscle, stool quality improved, twice the energy, and their coat has never been so soft and shiny. One of them is prone to matting and he hasn't had a mat in a while now, either.

So that's what works best for my dogs, and that's what they are on. I don't think feeding a high end food makes you dog food obsessive, necessarily. I try to feed my dog's the best quality I can for personal reasons, and since that's also what they do best on, it works out.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Crystal seems to have incontinence issues when I try anything but TotW... so she eats TotW, heh.

Casper's fur gets dry if I feed him TotW. He got a UTI when I fed Orijen. He looks and feels great when he eats Acana... so he eats Acana.

I agree that it's all about what's best for your specific dog, which is why I'm not going to sing the praises of any one food.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Well.. I was on the road to becoming a recovering food obsessive until my dog developed allergies. I will always do what works best for my dogs. Right now... unfortunately that is something expensive.


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## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

The thing I've always said was "listen to the dog" for the last word on their dog food. I see people desperately trying to feed one certain way, convinced it's the best way ever, yet the dog is suffering in some way, digestive, skin, etc. 

I also used to think $$$ spent on food = how much I love my dogs. Some foods were awful, and less fancy plain foods have worked a lot better for most of my dogs. I also was a food snob- if you fed X brand, well, you obviously didn't love your dogs!! How cruel you were and how sad I was for your poor dog!!

I've been able to afford more toys and chewies for the dogs to enjoy since lowering my food costs. Everybody is doing well on the foods they've "chosen" given their body's responses to each food. 

Feed what works, I am with you 100%! But I will also not judge anyone feeding some certain brand anymore. Because those brands I used to bash are working awfully well for my guys now


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Just to be clear: nothing in my posts is meant to imply that people feeding raw, home made or grain-free commercial foods without by-products or "preservatives" are doing anything but the best for their dogs, *provided* their dogs really do better on those foods. My personal experience has been that sometimes a food that seems less good on paper works better for a particular dog.

I just want to relieve people who may be feeding more "mainsteam" commercial foods of any guilt that they are somehow harming their pets or any compulsion to keep searching for something "better." Again, if your pet appears healthy and happy and if they're older, their blood work is normal, give yourself and your dog a break and put that energy into playtime, training, activities like agility, etc., therapy work.

And whatever you feed, keep your dog on the lean side.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

So, been researching for my large breed puppy food, and I found 2 NON grain free foods that meet the criteria well.... i went ahead and put them on the list, after this post I felt less guilty..... 1 was pro plan by the way the other Fromm.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

sclevenger said:


> after this post I felt less guilty.....


Good to hear!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Don't feel guilty at all that my dogs are going back on grocery store kibble when we have a friend look after them all of next week. PC Nutrition first kibble for the dogs, the canned version for the cat, for about 7 days. They all do good on it so I'm giving my friend a bit of a break. It'll be hard enough watching them lol.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I definitely don't judge anymore based on what someone feeds their dog.. as long as they are informed about ingredients and do what they can on what they can afford. 

I know plenty of pets that have crappy coat and flaky skin that might be helped if their owners tried the more "high end" stuff. I know a dog who did very well on Ol' Roy coat and poop wise... but that doesn't mean it was good for him nor did he have good health. Pro Plan is amazing comparatively.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> I definitely don't judge anymore based on what someone feeds their dog.. as long as they are informed about ingredients and do what they can on what they can afford.
> 
> I know plenty of pets that have crappy coat and flaky skin that might be helped if their owners tried the more "high end" stuff. I know a dog who did very well on Ol' Roy coat and poop wise... but that doesn't mean it was good for him nor did he have good health. Pro Plan is amazing comparatively.


Agreed. My grandfather dog has lived her entire life on kibbles & Bits. She turned 14 in July. Other than being kinda fat, she has a good coat and from what I've noticed decent poops. Wouldn't say she was necessarily healthy, but I think again it comes down to what was previously said.. genetics.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't know if my "use what works for your dog" attitude extends to junk like Kibbles and Bits, haha. My vet here says that most of the dogs they see with some specific problem (I forget what it was... maybe kidney-related?) eat that food.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I don't know if my "use what works for your dog" attitude extends to junk like Kibbles and Bits, haha. My vet here says that most of the dogs they see with some specific problem (I forget what it was... maybe kidney-related?) eat that food.


Ya, I'm not saying I would ever recommend that food, or things such as Gravey train or ol Roy.... i just meant, I really feel the biggest thing comes down to genetics. 

Also, my hometown is a small one from west virginia, most people, almost everyone I know feed from the local grocery store or dollar store, because even a walmart is an hour away. And the dogs there, don't have any less of lifespan or more illness than dogs I've seen on quality kibble. Just interesting is all. Not that I recomend it.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm to the point that feed what you want but if your dog has ear infections, a gross coat etc, please stop saying ho well the dog is doing on their food. Don't "cry poverty" & say you can't afford better food when you post about your new toys/cars/vacation. Be honest that feeding a better food isn't a priority but gadgets are. If you're going to feed low quality food (Ol Roy, Beneful etc), do not say how good the food is. Ingredients/GA/NA don't lie. Feed that kind of food if you want but don't say it's a good food. It's not.

(none of this is aimed at anyone here, unless your face is getting hot, then maybe it is)


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Again, for the sake of clarity, I'm not suggesting that anyone feed foods with artificial colors or a grain or a meat and bone meal as the first ingredient. That's going to leave out most supermarket brands like Pedigree and Beneful. Not to mention Ol' Roy. I also think that Iams and Science Diet are overpriced for what they are. I also wouldn't feed Purina One because I don't like the idea of the soy-based "shreds."

However, given that the vast majority of dogs are *not* allergic to grains per se, that by products are much more likely to be organs and other guts than feathers or beaks, that corn gluten in a feed (US sourced) helps reduce the need for a more meat based protein and hence the cost, and so on, I am now much more likely to consider a middle of the road food and much less likely to assume that a grain free high protein food is *automatically* better for the dog because the label reads better.

Grain-inclusive foods I'd include in that category are Pro Plan, some Diamond foods, Fromm Gold, Dr. Tim's, Annamaet, 4Health, Kirkland and any number of others I haven't tried personally. There's also a vast selection of high protein, high fat foods that are distributed primarily through feed stores that are a world apart from the Evos and Orijens and *much* cheaper. Brands I've heard good things about from the hunting guys include Diamond Premium and High Energy, Loyall, Country Vet, PMI Exclusive, and Victor. Most of these are geared to people who feed between 3 and 20 large dogs who couldn't possible afford Acana. Most of them only come in 18 and 34 lb bags. It's just not realistic to think that these people who expend so much time and effort on their animals would feed a really bad food any more than they'd put watered down gas in their truck. Just sayin'


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