# Our family dog is reaching the end of his life.



## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

This will probably be pretty long, I'm sorry. I'll put a summary at the bottom.

Just in case there's any confusion, I do not live with my parents or our family dog anymore, so I was given some of this information over the phone after a vet appointment today but I think we talked about mostly everything they did. 

I'm really quite crushed and could use some advice/support/anything to help us decide what to do going forward. Our family dog, Bailey, is a rescued mix. We believe he is part short-coat collie and part hound and possibly there are some other genes in there. He turned 13 last February. Forgetting for a moment what we learned today, he has really been in OK shape for his age and size, but he is pretty overweight. He's been on a diet (and exercise plan/s) for something like 8 years, we've changed our own behaviors like human food, with very little change... we're convinced he has a thyroid problem but multiple tests came back borderline every time, either just over or just under the line. Anyway, my point is he is not a teacup dog to begin with and is positively carrying more weight than would be ideal. 

He has been having eye problems on his left side for a while now and we were told about a year or 18 months ago that he lost vision in that eye. It was much more recently that a growth practically erupted overnight from behind his eye, pushing out at the top and center. It didn't seem to be bothering him but we made an appointment with the veterinary specialist he had been seeing for the problem as soon as we could get him in, and today we found out that the growth is unquestionably a cancerous tumor. 

We all understand he is an old dog and we can all rest easy feeling like we did everything we could to give him a happy life once he came into our family, but I know my parents weren't expecting this. I had braced myself somewhat more, but only because I always assume the worst. Bailey also developed an extremely unsightly skin infection a few months ago that looked so rough that I was very concerned it was skin cancer. We were assured multiple times by different vets that it was benign, but once it wasn't healing with antibiotics and other treatments, I got nervous again about something more serious and here we are. 

These are the options we were given: 1. have very expensive surgery to remove the eye that won't do much if the cancer has metastasized or didn't even start in his eye 2. have a number of x-rays and blood work done "for peace of mind," to confirm that he doesn't have cancer elsewhere in his body but what good is that if he does? 3. To essentially do nothing about the cancer itself and figure out what is required to keep him comfortable until his time comes. What we would do to accomplish that is a piece of information I'm missing. 

We truly don't know what to do. Given his size, at least one vet had expressed surprise at his general health and even the fact he's still alive before this, and we know that even without the cancer, it's not as though he would live for even another few years unless we were exceedingly lucky. We are pragmatists when it comes to our pets' healthcare. Just in a general sense, I can't say we would do anything and pay anything for a treatment or surgery that might have little benefit but we would go pretty far for a plan that had a better chance of success. I also know this would be a very different discussion if he were even a few years younger. Certainly we absolutely, positively, do not want him to suffer for one moment longer than he has to. Ideally not at all, as little as possible. But we also are extremely unsure of the ultimate benefit of surgery we'd have a hard time affording and that might (probably?) not give us an appreciable amount of extra time with him. At his age, we could have his eye removed and he could die the next day, cancer or no. 

I once read an article about euthanasia with pets that said, "if the decision is easy, you've waited too long." It really stuck with me and I absolutely agree, but I'm also not going to pretend that I don't realize it's completely different thinking about it in the abstract versus your own family member. Either way, Bailey still has an astonishingly good quality of life for his age and condition. Even just watching him day-to-day, we are about as sure as can be that he's not absolutely miserable yet and the vet tended to agree that he doesn't seem to be in much pain at all. While I don't live there, I've visited multiple times pretty recently and he seems as happy as ever, just a little slower. He can still do all his basic taking-care-of-himself things and pretty much all of the things he has always loved. I looked at multiple online quality-of-life questionnaires (for pets) and he scored well. All of us know how quickly that can change, given the news. But we truly don't think the right decision is to euthanize him too immediately and rob him of whatever mostly good time he has left. At the same time, we don't want to be selfish or end up waiting too long to save him the pain we so desperately want to keep him from experiencing. 

We've been telling ourselves for a long time that we knew this was coming sooner or later and we did, but you're never as ready as you think you are. I think we all hoped we'd have one more holiday with him, maybe one more birthday, and now we're not even sure he'll make it to Thanksgiving. We all feel completely lost and I just thought that someone here would understand and be able to give whatever advice they can. 

I know we are his family and ultimately we have to make a decision that is right for him and right for us, but we all feel like we need some kind of guidance and didn't get a lot from the vet. The problem is really that none of our options feel like the right decision, certainly not obviously so. 

Anywho, I guess that's it. If you've read this whole thing, thank you, truly, I appreciate it. I'm sorry I'm so verbose but I needed to vent badly. 

Too long, didn't read: Our 13 year old, relatively large family dog has a cancerous tumor in his eye and may or may not have cancer elsewhere in his body. We can do expensive surgery that may help a lot or not at all, have tests done that may make us feel better or make us feel worse, or essentially do nothing but keep him comfortable until it's time to send him off. He truly has a good quality of life all things considered but we all know that might change quickly. We just don't know what to do.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

So sorry to hear of your quandary. It's an awful decision to have to make, and one that only you and your family must make.

This may sound hard hearted, but faced with your situation, I would simply keep Bailey comfortable and give him a lot of love until it's time to send him off. At 13, it's not a question of extending life by many years. If you save him from this cancer, his kidneys or heart or who-knows-what are very likely to go next year. For an animal (or for a person) who has lived a good innings, I don't think death is such an awful thing, especially if there are good options for pain management. In my years running a boarding kennel, I had a couple clients who went through heroic measures trying to save an old dog, only to loose the dog shortly thereafter, due to another, different condition. (Both were very angry with the vet).

Vets (and doctors) are generally biased in favor of spending money on veterinary care. Not saying they're evil, just that they are trained to 'save lives', not to evaluate quality and length of the life after the saving has been done.

I think about these decisions in terms of what I would want for myself. I guess if I had a sudden appearance of an apparently aggressive cancer, I'd ask a lot of questions about diagnosis and prognosis, especially about whether there is good way to tell if it has spread. If the answer is "no", we can't tell without a lot of invasive probing, and "yes" there is a good chance it has spread, I would probably be looking for hospice options.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

So sorry you're dealing with this. Before I give my own personal insight, here is where I'm coming from: I had a 6.5 year old dog diagnosed with osteosarcoma (which is terminal 98% of the time). I was given the same options you were (expensive surgery after testing or management) and I decided, because of his age and the fact that he was my soul mate dog, to go with the tests, surgery and treatments. After spending a ridiculous amount of money (well over $10K), Loki survived three months post-surgery due to metastases. 

So, with that in mind, I think you should opt to keep him comfortable until you see signs that his condition is declining. He's an older dog, it's an invasive and expensive procedure, his likelihood of surviving the cancer if it has metastasized is low, and his likelihood of living many more years is low, too. Not trying to be harsh, just realistic. Personally, I think that's too many risky and iffy scenarios to consider going forward with surgery.

I also don't see much of a point in testing to see if the cancer has spread unless you want to have an idea of how much time he may have left. 



> I once read an article about euthanasia with pets that said, "if the decision is easy, you've waited too long." It really stuck with me and I absolutely agree, but I'm also not going to pretend that I don't realize it's completely different thinking about it in the abstract versus your own family member.


I kind of have a different way of looking at this. "Two weeks too early is better than two hours too late." Pretty much, it's better to take a dog to the vet on a good day when they can walk in under their own power and not be suffering as opposed to waiting until the dog collapses, is barely breathing and needs to be carried into the vet on a stretcher. 



> Either way, Bailey still has an astonishingly good quality of life for his age and condition. Even just watching him day-to-day, we are about as sure as can be that he's not absolutely miserable yet and the vet tended to agree that he doesn't seem to be in much pain at all. While I don't live there, I've visited multiple times pretty recently and he seems as happy as ever, just a little slower. He can still do all his basic taking-care-of-himself things and pretty much all of the things he has always loved. I looked at multiple online quality-of-life questionnaires (for pets) and he scored well. All of us know how quickly that can change, given the news. But we truly don't think the right decision is to euthanize him too immediately and rob him of whatever mostly good time he has left. At the same time, we don't want to be selfish or end up waiting too long to save him the pain we so desperately want to keep him from experiencing.


It's good that his quality of life is still high. I think the best way to move forward is to note his current quality of life and be sure to acknowledge any signs of decline (loss of appetite, trouble eliminating, lethargy). Many people wait for a big "sign" to know that it's time, but I personally don't like that point of view. What form does that sign come in? When the dog is in so much pain that it will no longer eat? When the dog can no longer go down stairs under its own power? Waiting for a big sign causes suffering. Being aware of the building up of small signs is the best way to determine when the time is right, in my opinion.

What's good to keep in mind is that while you're contemplating the end of Bailey's life, he's not. Dogs are mostly very day-to-day creatures. All that matters to Bailey is how he feels today, and what is happening today. "Tomorrow" isn't something dogs think about, or worry about, like people do. While we endure things as humans with the hope that tomorrow will be better, that's not the way of dogs. It sounds like Bailey is happy and doing well now, so what I would do is come up with a management plan with my vet, talking about painkillers, talk about the discomfort the progression of the cancer will cause, talk about possible symptoms or hints that he's not feeling as well, and keep him happy on a day-to-day basis. 

On a personal note, I carry a lot of guilt about my decisions with Loki. He endured a massive surgery and a long recovery and never really got back to 100%. I made him endure that for me, because I was too sad and afraid to say goodbye even in the face of a terminal disease. A year and three days after I lost Loki, I put my other dog, Atlas, to sleep due to splenic hemangiosarcoma. I kept him comfortable, I did no testing outside of the original ultrasound that located the tumor, I watched for signs of discomfort. And when I saw a decreased appetite and an uncomfortable gait, I took him in and put him down peacefully. I have no guilt about Atlas whatsoever. He met a much happier end than Loki did. He didn't suffer. And that will be my goal with all of my future dogs. 

Again, I'm really sorry you're going to go through this. It's absolutely the worst part of pet ownership.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you both very much for the replies and kind words, that's really exactly what I was hoping for. Rather than go line-by-line, I'll try to address some of the bigger questions/comments raised. 

First off, I absolutely don't think it's callous to suggest thinking about simply keeping him comfortable rather than taking aggressive action. If anything, _I'm_ the one who is feeling cold right now because he's our dog and that is pretty much what my gut is telling me... but I'm trying to remember that, used correctly, euthanasia is a gift. We can't know without checking, but I have a strong suspicion that this is not the only tumor he's got. Even the vet said that while there's no guarantee without a closer look, the protrusion seemed much harder than a primary eye tumor should. Of course, he's not a young dog, which has a big impact on the decision tree. If I were the only one making the decision, I think I'd be leaning on keeping him comfortable and not doing much else. Even though the vet said that the surgery to remove his eye isn't as gruesome as it might seem or sound, I know Bailey and it still sounds like he would be so miserable during the recovery and there's no way it's buying him another ten years. 

Not to bring politics into what is a decisively nonpolitical conversation, but frankly I am a big proponent of Physician Aid in Dying in people who are sick, so certainly I don't feel squeamish about the idea or even necessarily making that call when the time comes. Well, just the completely understandable pain at the thought of losing a family member, but not the act or process or correctness of the decision itself. I'm stating the obvious, but it's just a question of when the right time is. I know I'm repeating myself, but with his quality of life where it is now, it seems equally cruel to make the call too soon but I also know it is no better for anyone waiting too long. I completely agree that death isn't so awful, especially when the alternative is living with a terrible, terminal illness. It's hard when he seems so happy and basically OK that we certainly don't feel like we'd be putting him out of his misery, yet, but of course our goal is to save him the misery to begin with. 

Before I go on, I do want to mention that my dad spoke with another vet. The eye vet is pretty far away and the trip is hard on Bailey, so they're reluctant to even have to take him down there for tests, let alone potentially a surgery. The vet we spoke to yesterday is much closer. I could be misunderstanding, but it sounds like they're going to take him in on Friday just to get another opinion about what to do (we're not doubting he has cancer or anything). Either on Friday itself or another appointment, it sounds like the nearby vet was suggesting doing an ultrasound first to check his abdomen. This should cost less than the full workup and could still give us information. He has a very suspicious lump on his abdomen and if it turns out that's a tumor, the way forward will be much clearer. He just has a lot of lumps and bumps because of his weight. They could all be fat pockets, or he could be riddled with tumors. We don't know, but I think we are all comfortable that an ultrasound is not too invasive and has the potential to give us information that may make our course more clear. 

We actually had the exact same discussion about how the vet from yesterday is nice enough but of course he'd like to be paid 2.5k for removing Bailey's eye. The vet nearby is a little more realistic about what makes sense IMO and is better about trying to find creative solutions to save money (like the ultrasound instead of full x-rays). 

I 100% hear you on the advice that it's better a bit too early than too late. I am REALLY hoping we can find a vet to do a house call for it, but I know it's no guarantee. Thank goodness Bailey doesn't mind the vet so if we have to go while he's still mobile, he shouldn't be inherently terrified, but of course you are right that we don't want to have to carry him in when he's already half gone.

I was going to hit a couple of more points individually but I think I can kind of sum it all up here. As much as possible, it sounds like at least the three of us are on the same page (knowing that you two don't know Bailey and can only go from what you've experienced and what I've told you). As of right now, I am really pushing against doing the surgery for a lot of reasons that I've talked about, are obvious, or one of you has brought up. I don't think there's any harm in the ultrasound and it is significantly less expensive. If it turns out he does have a tumor or tumors in his abdomen, then it will absolutely be a matter of keeping him comfortable until the time comes. I mean, even if he doesn't, we may go that route regardless, but this is the first time my mom and I have had to deal with this so it's just hard and she will be the hardest to convince. She doesn't want him to suffer either, though, he is just closest with her and she will take it the hardest. My dad had a dog when he was younger but she died when he was at college, so I guess this is new for us all. 

I read last night that for families who have put down multiple pets, they tend to do it sooner and sooner as they've had to do it more. Not cruelly soon, just that it tends to be those having to make the decision for the first time who hold on longer than is good for the pet. I'm trying to keep that in mind. It's so easy to tell yourself that you're making the right decision prolonging things when often, you're not. But we will continue to watch his quality of life regardless and try our hardest to not allow him to get to such a bad spot before we send him off. Truly, he still has a long way down to go, even if it could happen quickly... but at least it's comforting right this second to know he's OK. And it is very comforting to be reminded that he is not thinking about this like us, so thank you. 

I will definitely provide updates when we have them.

Edit: Just forgot to address that I completely agree about a "sign" that it's time, or rather the lack thereof, that it is unwise to wait for a single big cue. We are doing our best to continue looking at Bailey's quality of life comprehensively and not waiting until any one or multiple of his faculties begin to truly fail. He still eats 99% of his food, still enjoys treats and occasional human food, still goes on and enjoys [short] walks, no incontinence yet, etc. Really there's nothing major (at this point) I can think of that I would say is significantly impacting his quality of life besides the fact that it's very difficult for him to get up the stairs now and he loves to sleep in my parents' room, but he still manages with help. Anyway, my point in editing was just to say that I will definitely keep in mind that we should not wait for one sign but rather keep track of how well his life is on the whole, one day at a time. Of course, I don't get to see him daily now, but Dad is very realistic about this kind of stuff and I believe will be able to honestly appraise how Bailey is doing, and even Mom is so far handling this better than I expected... but I think that was my fault for not giving her more credit. She's a pretty amazing woman and while I can't stress enough what a wonderful fit Bailey was for our family at that time and how much we all love him, she is the one who will truly be losing her soul mate dog. I'm just worried about her, too.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

My two cents:
1. I had a dog that I euth'd at 17yo. He woke up one morning and his arthritis was so bad that he didn't even try to stand - I felt that I had waited too long.
2. I recently euth'd a dog at 16yo. He had a cancer on the pad of one foot at 12yo, which we removed for ~$1000. He was able to walk for the next 4 years, eventually slowing to a hobble, but enjoying his walks, and seeing the neighbors. He could not get up from a down position, but did not seem to be in pain. And, he would sometimes simply fall down, stumbling and collapsing, with no apparent discomfort, and he'd wait for me help him back up. Around Memorial Day, he collapsed twice during a walk, and I accepted that he was probably going downhill. I might have kept him going for another 6 - 12 mos ... but that would have been for me. So, on my schedule, I was able to provide a calm, comfortable, well-fed euth experience. No easier than the 17yo dog, but maybe a better experience for the dog.

If the eye tumor doesn't bother the dog, and won't cause chronic pain, I don't see a benefit in removing it. If your dog enjoys life, is mostly free of pain [drugs can help], can exercise daily, eats OK, and goes potty with no problems and no accidents, then you might wait on the euth ... or consider that you don't want to euth during the holidays ... [or maybe you do?]. Pain, Incontinence, lack of joy, and Lack of mobility are triggers for considering that it is time.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

hanksimon said:


> If the eye tumor doesn't bother the dog, and won't cause chronic pain, I don't see a benefit in removing it. If your dog enjoys life, is mostly free of pain [drugs can help], can exercise daily, eats OK, and goes potty with no problems and no accidents, then you might wait on the euth ... or consider that you don't want to euth during the holidays ... [or maybe you do?]. Pain, Incontinence, lack of joy, and Lack of mobility are triggers for considering that it is time.


Thank you, that is all helpful. The biggest problem is that the vet has indicated that it seems like the tumor is growing really fast. So what isn't bothering him now, may very well bother him very shortly. Of course, that would then theoretically tip the scales towards euthanizing him sooner to prevent that. But the speed it is growing is the main reason we would consider more aggressive action if it is truly localized to his eye, especially seeing as the vision is already gone there... but it's entirely possible that a) there's more cancer or b) he's at the end of his life regardless. I will say that, at least based on his vet visits up until now as well as our own observations, we had no real reason to believe he couldn't possibly make it to his next birthday. Literally every time he's gone to the vet before this has been "well, he's overweight but shockingly healthy, and watch his eye." His demeanor hasn't changed since, though of course the cancer changes his prognosis. I just think we'd feel guilty not trying to get some more information as long as it's not too hard on him, because he still seems so put together for his age besides the tumor.

I'm not trying to be unrealistically optimistic or anything. I'm also not there, so it's entirely possible it's gotten worse since I was there... not that I am the only person capable of assessing his quality of life. Still, there's a very good chance that he will have cancer elsewhere and we could be potentially looking at making the final appointment within a couple of weeks or less. I definitely want to get home but I won't make him wait for me either if he's going downhill quick. But still, I think we would always feel bad for not trying to find out what else is going on in Bailey because before now, we haven't seen a ton of decline. Of course, the cancer is a pretty big sign of that, even if it is localized. 

I'm not positive, but I think we'd be okay with the potential of having to euthanize relatively close to the holidays but no one wants to do it on December 23rd or even Christmas week, so we have to keep that in mind for sure. 

Realistically, Bailey wouldn't have lived another 2+ years even without the cancer, but our primary concern is that he is more like your 16yo than the 17o, and that _if_ it's just cancer in his eye, maybe he will bounce back for a little while. It's a pretty big if though, and the more I think about it, the more I feel like I wouldn't really want to subject him to much of any of this at this point. But again, the primary concern is the speed at which the tumor is growing and the worry that we'd be putting him down for something that could possibly be removed. 

This is exactly why we feel like it's worth trying to get a couple of more pieces of information if we can, as long as it's not too hard on Bailey. I feel like it is partially a symptom of having never done it and partially a symptom of who we are. Certainly, to put him down tomorrow or next week seems cruel for where he's at. In the meantime, ultrasounds are fairly gentle and Bailey is very good at the vet. If Bailey were to suddenly slip into a much worse quality of life very soon, we'd have to obviously think of euthanizing sooner and would probably forever feel guilty about it getting to that point, but we have no reason to believe he's so close. He seems happy and calm and hungry and thirsty and continent the vast majority of the time, just old (and never incontinent, not up until now). 

If it were just me, I'd probably just make sure he was okay for as long as possible and assume we'd be looking at about a month or maybe less, but it's not just me and I certainly understand why my parents want a little more information. And of course I won't be unhappy to have it, again as long as it's not too much for Bailey. Right now, it's just another vet appointment, so it's fine. She may well have a different take on the situation altogether. Of course, even the news is still pretty fresh so we're all trying to come around to it; it's a lot to take in all at once and honestly there are just a lot of other things beyond Bailey being sick happening all at once that is making each of them difficult to digest. We'll get through it all, though. 

He does have pain medication for if and when he seems uncomfortable. 

Thank you, you've given us plenty more to consider.

Edit: I don't have time for a full update right this second, but Bailey ended up having to go to the nearer vet tonight instead of Friday. She made us all feel a bit better about everything but we do have more talking to do. I think we're all on the same page, a little wary about subjecting him to surgery but I also forgot that he had surgery on his anal glands quite recently and recovered beautifully. They're not exactly the same surgery and he's that much older, so I'm definitely not saying that's necessarily where we are headed. The cost versus how long we could really have him is still absolutely a concern, as well as plenty of other factors. We still have to do some thinking and discussing and we are all open to the possibility that it may end up being better for Bailey to send him off sooner-- not quite yet, but before the tumor begins to bother him too much-- and without subjecting him to any kind of procedures due to his age. But it's good to remember that he has handled surgery well before if it turns out to be just his eye, and we're all getting over the shock a bit more so we can look at it logically. The key is to remember it may very well not be just his eye, as I keep saying, but of course we can't help but have our fingers crossed so at least we feel like we have _some_ option to possibly give him more good time... but trying to keep expectations in check, too.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Maybe you've already tried this, but when I've had to make critical decisions, I've found it helpful to ask the vet for an honest opinion of what they would do if it were their dog.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks sand, I definitely thought about that but since I haven't been at the appointments, I'm not sure if that was covered. I'll have to ask. 

I think mom and dad may be leaning on the surgery for a couple of reasons, and while I'm not really that thrilled about it necessarily, I think it's really more their decision at this point. This is the same surgeon who did Bailey's anal gland surgery and we loved her and she knows Bailey. She seems to truly think he'll do OK, surgery wise, if the cancer is localized... but of course she would. They do x-rays as part of the pre-surgery process and agreed that the entire thing will be stopped if they find more cancer. I suppose that's something. 

Idk, that's basically where we're at. The longer it's been, the more I'm sure that I would just make him happy for the few weeks he'd likely have left with no treatment. But I'm not there, and neither mom nor dad have the ability to give him the 24/7 attention we all want to give him right now. I guess no one really does, but still. I am definitely concerned we're falling into the trap of thinking we're doing right by him by prolonging things when we're not, but I'm not really sure what else to do. It's awful but I find myself thinking that if they find more cancer, at least we won't have to argue about the best plan of action. 

But they are there with him and I am not. It's not as though I don't want any extra time with him we can get, but I don't want it if it's bad time and obviously I don't want that for him. We still have more talking to do and the reality is that they had the benefit of talking to the vet/surgeon and I did not. So if they really think that's the best move, I have to trust them, but it does make me nervous and I am acutely aware that so far nothing has convinced me that surgery is the right decision.

Edit: Okay, I thought we had ruled out the ultrasound for cost but now it sounds like they do want to do that to at least see if he has any large tumors in his torso, which if he does, makes the way forward pretty simple in terms of the decision, though certainly not emotionally. At least that's a lot less invasive although it really only tells us if he has tumors in his abdomen. I'm just glad they feel like we're able to do something less than going to that step just yet. I probably just misunderstood anyway... all of this is difficult.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

It IS difficult. We all go through this, sometimes with many dogs. You don't always know when you're extending his quality of life or just prolonging everything. But, the surgery probably won't do much harm and may make the dog more comfortable - after the first 3 days, most dogs seem to be unaware of surgery ... and some dogs seem to bounce back immediately. I imagine post-surgical care for the eye will be similar as the previous surgery.

On the other hand, sometimes it makes the owner (your parents) feel better to be able to do something, rather than just wait for the inevitable.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks hanks... you're right, of course, that often it's hard to know what the right decision is. I've said it a dozen times in this thread if I've said it once and I'm sure I'll say it again, but it's all the more complicated when we see such a happy and relatively healthy dog. He still hasn't needed a single dose of pain medication from the vet, is sleeping through the night, nothing unusual or new basically. It's does look like we're actually going to do the ultrasound first which may tell us something. It could still not give us much information and we might still be looking at the surgery, but at least we'll know we checked. If it does turn out he's got a large tumor in his abdomen, there's not much we can do besides make sure he's happy until the time comes. 

But yes, there is definitely still a possibility that the surgery will happen in which case everything you said stands. We would feel so guilty if he had the surgery and really didn't recover well, but at this point multiple vets have assured us that it's a relatively uncomplicated surgery and based on his history, he should do well. Taking that with a grain of salt, we've done our own research, and truly have found nothing to suggest there's an inherent reason it can't be successful in terms of his comfort. We know there's a chance the cancer could be elsewhere or even if it appears to be localized, could be missed or could come back. That's out of our control. Whether or not he has the surgery IS in our control, so naturally we all want to be as comfortable as possible that it seems like the right decision, if we do it. 

Of course, we're all wary of trying to justify any of these things to ourselves when it might not be the right decision for Bailey. We are acutely aware that it is our first time handling this and don't want to fall into the traps we know people sometimes fall in, but we're trying to take each thing as it comes. 

I know I mentioned before, but the biggest issue (physically) is how fast the eye tumor is growing now. If we do nothing, we could be looking at a couple of weeks. If it turns out that it appears the cancer is localized and we can theoretically do something about it (the surgery) and we think that Bailey can handle it, there is certainly incentive to see if we can give him a little more good time, even if it's ultimately not a _lot_ of time. The quality of the time is more important than the length, but even an additional six months seems like a lot compared to the prospect of having to put him down before Thanksgiving. We also understand that nothing we do can guarantee we'll get even those six months, but hopefully you know what I'm saying. 

So yeah, that's where we are: he's going to get an ultrasound and we'll see what it finds. If it finds nothing, there's a pretty high likelihood-- not definite-- that we will opt for the surgery, knowing that they will do x-rays beforehand and will not proceed if those come up with cancer where the ultrasound did not. We are absolutely still open to the possibility that the best thing we can do for him at his age is give him a good death before things get too bad, without subjecting him to any needless procedures/tests/surgeries. The ultrasound is pretty mild though, and it might give us useful information one way or the other. He's good with the vet and at this point, that's about the only thing we can do and and all feel totally sure that nothing bad will come of it besides a dent in our bank account and possibly the results. Beyond that, we'll just have to take it one step at a time.

Thank you again.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

>>> We also understand that nothing we do can guarantee we'll get even those six months, but hopefully you know what I'm saying. 

I understand and know what you're going through. My own 'doubts' and second-guessing started when my dog was 12 and ended in June, after he was 16yo.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

It's a sad dilemma.
If you're inclined, by temperament, to feel guilty, any way you turn may land you guilty feelings. There is no clean cut answer and logically, you should not feel guilt if the decision you make turns out wrong. I'm no shrink and have no real recommendations, but it would be good, somehow, to move your attitude around to 'we did the best we could' and 'we gave Bailey a good life' . . . rather than wondering if you ended his life prematurely or caused unnecessary pain.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Well, he had the ultrasound. It doesn't really look like we'll have much of a choice; he's got a big mass in his liver. They did aspirate it and will test, but no mass in a major organ is a good thing... let alone at near 14. So, he's probably really at the end here. We all knew this was a very high possibility but of course I think we were all hoping that there would be SOMETHING we could do to give him a little more life. But when your time is up your time is up, and we do know we did the best we could to give him a good life. I think he had a good life. I wish I was there but I'll make it back for when it's time.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry to hear it. 

In a strange bizarro way, it's nice to know, b/c you don't have the frustration of trying everything to extend life, but can focus on improving/maintaining quality of life, and can make the final decision in a calm, relaxed, and comparatively predictable way. For example, we saw the signs of ultimate decline over the weekend and had time to make preparations, final steak meal, etc. and schedule with the Vet for a quiet time a few days later. 

To go further down that train of thought, we had more time than expected, and started researching new dogs. When we were able to adopt a new dog about a week later, I believe that it greatly helped move the grieving process along a little more smoothly.

Finally, be aware that it is normal to feel guilt after you euth a dog, regardless of the effort to save its life or maintain the quality of life. Just accept it as part of the grieving process.

BTW - my avatar is the new dog


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Sad diagnosis. Good that you have some clarity, at least; I'd say the ultrasound was a good call. I don't know anything about such cancers. You may want to suggest to your folks that they ask the vet about whether it's likely to be painful, and if there are good palliative meds.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks for the advice everyone. He does have some painkillers for if he's uncomfortable and I'm sure the vet would be willing to do more if necessary; so far he really hasn't seemed to have needed them. I mean, it's hard to say for sure of course but he doesn't seem uncomfortable. We are all feeling the same way, that the ultrasound was clearly the right choice for some clarity. We might not have felt exactly like that if it showed up with nothing but that's not what happened. Now we know and we don't have to waffle so much with what to do. I suppose there's still a minuscule chance that if the mass in the liver isn't cancerous we'd HALF consider the eye surgery, but at this point a) the likelihood of the liver mass being non-cancerous is very small and b) even if it isn't cancerous, I think we've crossed over to not wanting to subject him to a surgery that really can't buy him much time now. So yeah, we are all just hoping that maybe he'll make it through to Thanksgiving and even that might be a bit much. We'll do whatever he needs us to do for him.

I've been trying to convince my parents to adopt another dog for a while but there were some legitimate reasons it didn't work for them at the time. I think they'll get one more once Bailey has moved on. I hope they do and I hope it doesn't take too long, for their sake. 

Thanks again.

Hanks-- beautiful dog!


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

I just wanted to chime in because I went through nearly exactly the same thing with the dog in my signature, Tucker. He has a tumor behind his eye that was pushing his eye outwards and up. He was healthy otherwise, still lively, hiking, playing, eating, etc. We had xrays and blood work done and everything looked fine, but the tumor biopsy did come back as malignant so there was no real guarantee that it hadn't already spread. He was an older dog and he weighed 125lbs (and he was lean, not overweight). We saw how miserable he was just after they used a syringe to relieve some of the pressure from behind his eye and do the biopsy - for 3 days he whined and was obviously uncomfortable. In the end, we opted to manage his pain with pain killers and the tumor with steroids. When he got to the point that he couldn't properly close his eye, we knew it was time to let him go. I have no guilt because we didn't feel it was right to put him through a surgery that would have taken weeks/months to recover from (taking the eye out and the mass behind it and all of the contents of the eye on that side of the skull) knowing that he may not have that much time left even if we were able to beat the tumor. 

I'm very sorry you have to go through this.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks Sydney, very helpful to get some input from someone who has gone through such a similar situation, and sorry to hear about Tucker. From what I understand, Bailey has been exhibiting very few signs of pain in general, but again it's hard to tell and I'm getting all of my information from my parents rather than straight from the vet and my own day-to-day observations. When I'm around he sometimes gets a little whiney at night which is a more recent development (last year or so), but that seems to be more an attention thing as he does it much less when it's just him and my parents. Often my dog is also with me, so Bailey sometimes vies for attention with Sebastian a little bit, though in general they get along famously. It sounds like he is more relaxed when it is just my parents and him, since at this point that's what he's gotten used to. I'm just pointing out the whining since that's about the only thing I can think of that might indicate he is uncomfortable, and as far as I recall he is also arthritic. But again, he almost never complains and his movement is no more impaired than we would expect from almost any dog his age and size ("we" including the vet). 

We haven't discussed steroids yet but that's something to think about if he will live long enough for it to make sense and if his tumor will be at all responsive. One of the most difficult parts of all of this is the speed at which that tumor is growing, so anything we can do to stall its growth while it still seems to be bothering him so little.... I guess I'm really just not sure if steroids are a viable option for Bailey's exact situation either way, but we'll find out.

No matter what the mass in his liver turns out to be, we are all leaning heavily on simply keeping him comfortable and happy and I assume that is what we're going to do. My parents are having dinner with friends who are Irish Wolfhound fanatics and have gone through this an unfortunately large number of times. I'm sure they will have valuable input. The good news is that he's not a young dog so we can't say any of this is really a surprise, not the same way it would have been if he were 4-6 years younger. Of course that doesn't really make it any less difficult, just less unexpected. 

We will definitely keep a close watch on his affected eye and his ability to close it.

Despite what it might sound like in some of these posts, I think we're feeling as little guilt as possible under the circumstances. That's not to say we're guilt proof or won't do something that causes us guilt later, including finally making the call. At this point, though, we're doing our research and getting as much information about Bailey and his health as we can access/afford/makes sense which has, of course, lead to us learning additional facts that help to illuminate the way ahead. I'm an only child and all three of us are the type to need to at least know what the options are before making any decision. I can't say that confidently whether or not we would have done the surgery in some alternate universe where Bailey has no mass in his liver, but he does, and as sand pointed out, it is at least good to have some clarity in that regard. He's had a good life and we will keep him comfortable as best we can and give him a good death before he's really suffering. Considering how little the surgery would do now and just the whole ordeal, at the moment we are basically considering it a non-option, so there's truly nothing else we can do and I think we all feel as good about it as we can. 'Good' being a relative term. 

It has been very helpful to have the support from here as we go through this, so thank you all again. I will continue to provide updates.

Can anyone provide any insight on the pros and cons of doing at-home euthanasia versus the vet? We are not quite there yet and we're all thinking about it. Bailey is good with the vet, really about as good as you could want, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily better for him or anyone to do it there. I can see the pluses and minuses and both (as can my parents) so any input anyone might have on the matter would be very helpful and appreciated.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Bash-full said:


> Can anyone provide any insight on the pros and cons of doing at-home euthanasia versus the vet? We are not quite there yet and we're all thinking about it. Bailey is good with the vet, really about as good as you could want, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily better for him or anyone to do it there. I can see the pluses and minuses and both (as can my parents) so any input anyone might have on the matter would be very helpful and appreciated.


I've had to do both. Neither is pleasant, but at-home is hands-down preferable. The only possible downside I can see is that it may be hard to find a vet who will do it, or you may have to pay extra to induce a vet to come to you. I had a wonderful mobile vet who did many in-home euthanasias. Her services may have prejudiced me in favor of the in-home approach. But it is really horrific to wait in the waiting room with a dog who is in pain, and who you know won't be coming out alive.

p.s. I'm presuming you mean mobile vs. normal office-based veterinary service, as opposed to DIY jobs. I could never shoot a dog.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Oh goodness no I'm not talking about a DIY at-home euth. There are many mobile vets in the area, fortunately. I figured doing it at home would be preferable but I'm not sure what will end up being best when cost and everything is considered... thanks for the insight.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

>>> Hank -- beautiful dog! Thanks! He is good looking .. a clone of the previous dog ;-)

Steroids - Ask the Vet, but my experience was that the steroids reduced pain and tumor size, and you continue them for the life of the dog. I don't think that you can mix NSAIDS and steroids, but I don't recall exactly.

Knowing When - Some dogs will stop wagging their tail, stop playing, have trouble walking, lose appetite or reduce eating, and perhaps become incontinent. Again, your Vet can tell you 'symptoms' to look for... ask about these. In my individual case, my dog was in pain, but not suffering; he reduced eating significantly [possibly b/c he wasn't walking but just hobbling as exercise] but would eat from my hand; had all other listed symptoms but would play on his terms ... If he was lying down, he would fight and 'wrestle' with me if I teased him and if he didn't have to get up or move much. If I tried to play while he was standing, he would lay in my lap to play. I decided that it was time, when his particular symptoms and infirmities were declining incrementally day by day ... What I had previously felt were his bad days, now seemed to be his good days ... with new lows for his bad days.... and more bad days than good. I might have prolonged his decline for another 6 - 12 mos.

Euth at Home - I think you can imagine the Pros, so I will just list some possible Cons:
1. You will have to dispose of the body
2. You can't just 'leave' the body, and walk away to start grieving [ unless the mobile Vet removes it.]
3. The sphincters may open after death, and you'll have to be prepared for the clean-up.
4. The cost of the mobile Vet may be more than the Office Service [Some euths are free! You'll have to ask. The only cost is disposal, which you may be able to handle.]
5. Some Vets have Euth rooms, and are experienced with making the experience as smooth as possible. Maybe more experienced than a mobile Vet?


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

I just wanted to provide an update. 

Bailey continues to have a very good quality of life. He seems happy, he doesn't really seem to be in much pain (he's getting pain meds sporadically, only a few doses so far), still likes bribe food and is still basically eating his normal food given enough time, etc. No accidents, although sometimes he poops on the deck when he doesn't feel like going all the way down to the yard. This is only half new, as he's been peeing on the deck for the same reason for quite some time, and it's not every time, but worth noting. The eye tumor continues to be the problem. It is growing very quickly. We did go over some other options but apparently he's not a good candidate for steroids. I am getting all of this info from my parents right now, but as far as I know they're telling me everything important. 

My mom talked to the veterinary ophthalmologist Bailey has been seeing and he remarked that a cancerous liver mass might have been more likely to show up from the aspiration following the ultrasound whereas it was inconclusive, and even if it were malignant apparently it's still likely to be slow-growing. I'm not sure, that's just what that doctor said. He's not the one who would be removing Bailey's eye, but that's where we are. He's going to have the eye surgery, theoretically. 

The same surgeon who did Bailey's anal gland surgery will be doing the eye (potentially) and we really liked her, plus he recovered well from that one not that long ago (but long enough that we're not subjecting him to more surgery super soon or anything). I'm honestly not sure what I'd do in this situation but mom and dad both feel very adamant that he doesn't seem ready to go besides his eye and I've done my best to play devil's advocate. I understand why they want him to have the surgery, and as I know I've mentioned, he will have x-rays beforehand to look for other spots. If they find anything else, they won't do the surgery, and it also means we're probably at the last week or less of his life. Fortunately, I will be home the day before he's due to go in. 

We'll talk about euth at vet versus home once I'm there, too. Have to take it step by step. Of course, now we all hope that they don't see anything else, he has the surgery and then he recovers well. We are all prepared that this may be the end, though. We're also prepared for the possibility that the surgery could go well and he could still die shortly. There's no good or easy decision. I think I would lean on not subjecting him to the surgery, but the tumor is growing so fast that we had very little time to come to grips with everything and I completely understand my parents' motivation in this situation. From everything they both say (and Dad is especially pragmatic, but mom has been very good) he is living the best life he can be as an old dog, let alone an old dog with cancer. The surgery is not inexpensive but up until now, Bailey's health has cost as little as any dog's really could. For the most part, anyway. My dog is 3 and because he has epilepsy and had to go to the ER twice in the past, it is possible we've already spent as much as things will add up to with Bailey. Of course, that's not the only concern, but the cost of the surgery won't put us on the streets even if it is a bit of a strain. 

That's where we are. To reiterate/summarize: he won't have the surgery if the pre-procedure x-rays show any signs of additional cancer. In that case, due to the speed his eye tumor is growing, we will probably be looking to euthanize him within a week or less after finding that out. My parents struggled a lot with the decision and all I can do really is go along. Honestly, regardless of what I'd do, mom has a very special relationship with Bailey. They are too close for me to try and convince them to put Bailey down sooner than he is telling them. He truly doesn't sound ready and that means our only option is to remove the eye, unless the eye is symptomatic of a larger issue. Hopefully it's been clear from the start that none of us want him to suffer for a moment longer than we have control over. I would tend towards wanting to give him a good death sooner in order to prevent that, whereas mom and dad would probably feel worse thinking they cut his life off too soon since he's still in such good spirits and overall good shape. Even though he's old, I understand why given the circumstances, and we'll just have to see what happens with the x-rays and possible surgery. 

None of us want to be unrealistic in our expectations or overly optimistic, but he is a resillient dog and he really seems to be telling mom and dad that he has a little more life in him if not for his bad eye. He's been without vision in it for a long while, so he's not even losing that if the surgery happens. We know what we have to do if the x-rays show signs of more cancer, though. 

I will be sure to keep everyone updated. Thanks again.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Hoping things come out for the best....


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Bailey is literally on the table now, but I wanted to let you all know that beyond anything microscopic, they didn't find anything else in his chest. He will be having the surgery very soon. 

I'm nervous, but now that I got home and was able to see Bailey for myself, I feel better about the decision. His eye was a mess. We really would have been looking at next week for the euth without the surgery and he seems just like his older self. He seems happy and "with it" and hungry and dopey as ever. We would have questioned the rest of our lives how much time we took off him if we didn't even send him in for the chest x-rays, which of course came up negative for now. 

He won't live another 6 years, but 6 months is better than a week and we're prepared it could be less than that. 

We gave him a DNR, so first he has to get through the surgery. But fingers crossed.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Great that the Xrays came out looking pretty good. 
Were I into prayer, I'd pray for Bailey. Fingers crossed. And hoping that you get more than an additional 6 mo. I don't think eye surgery is particularly harsh . . . no deep wounds or extensive cutting. Dogs do fine with one eye.


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## Wet Beards (Jan 25, 2015)

Sending good thoughts that all goes well with Bailey's surgery.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Except for complications related to cancer or deterioration, it sounds like the surgery is fairly straightforward. Bailey will probably feel much better in a day or two ... and you may have to keep him quiet, so that he can heal. If the vet provides pain meds, along with the antibiotics, be sure to use them, b/c they may help to take the edge off the pain for the first 3 days or so. 

Following the Vet's advice, watch Bailey for eating and pooping. He may be off for the first 24 hours, but he should eat a little (or normally), as soon as the Vet predicts, and poop should be normal about a day afterwards. Ask the Vet for a phone number to call over the weekend ... not an emergency Vet who will tell you to come in (just in case), but an on call Vet who can reassure you ... or recommend that you go to an emergency Vet, if needed.

I imagine the Vet will have you come in after a day to examine the site and change the bandage. They may suggest that you change the bandage and keep it dry. Ask about that!!! Because tear ducts and sinuses may drain ... Have the Vet explain it to you, so that you know what to expect and can recognize if there are problems. With adequate information, everything will work out fine, but if the Vet forgets to explain something, then you may worry needlessly.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks for all the swift replies!

sand, thank you. That's what the vet keeps telling us, that the eye surgery is really not so terrible in the scheme of things. We take everything the vets tell us that makes them significant money with a slight grain of salt but it does sound like that is true. Also, he's already been operating without the eye (blind on the one side) for about 18 months so in this case, that's kind of a plus since he won't be newly losing vision. 

Thank you Wet Beards  

Hanks, he does have pain meds and we will definitely use them. We have 50mg tramadol for him and can dose up to 3 at once, so far, mostly 2 has been sufficient. We'll give him his full dose after the surgery for sure though. I seem to recall that he may come home with a 48 or 72 hour morphine patch, as well, so we'll double check if and how that impacts what we give him while that's active. 

I'll double check with my parents but I think they have a good number to call for those things! 

Bailey is actually staying overnight, so my guess is they will want to see him Monday but not positive just yet. Dad has really spearheaded a lot of this but of course I've been helping in any way I can. He's a big dog and overweight, so I'll be going to pick him up with Dad to help get him in the car and my partner and I will be taking our dog who is here to a hotel for at least the first few nights when Bailey is most vulnerable. (Sebastian won't sleep without Bailey if they're in the same place.) He's been good about getting all the information we need and I'll be sure to check that he asks about those specific issues. Plus, I'll be there to pick up. 

I attached a photo of Bailey (on his good side) right before going in. I know it's hard to tell from a single picture, but that's been pretty much his disposition this whole time. Hard to put him down when that's the case and I'm glad we had some option, fingers crossed it will indeed buy him some time. He only went in for surgery at 215EST so it's probably still going on now.

Thanks again!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

He looks like a happy dog. With exercise, maybe it Will be 6 more YEARS....
I'm assuming that they will change the dressing before he comes home on Friday, then won't need to come back for a week or so, possibly to remove sutures [may be internal], or just to check progress. I expect him to be noticeably happier without the eye, but may be a little itchy as the incision heals.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Interestingly enough, he doesn't have a dressing and we did make sure to ask. He just got back today. They said he really did very well and seemed happy the whole time and handled the surgery well and really just couldn't have done any better for his age. It looks rough, but no worse than a tumor bulging from his eye and it will get much better once the hair grows back and the swelling goes down. Because of the mass in his liver, he can't take a certain anti-inflammatory/swelling medication, but we were directed to use cold compresses and he has gabapentin and tramadol for pain, plus an antibiotic. Of course, he will be in a cone until the stitches come out but we got him a slightly more comfortable one than the normal type they use at the vet (we did check with the vet that it's sufficient coverage). 

It's hard to say how he's doing yet. He seems mostly fine but is significantly more doped up this time than with his anal gland surgery. He still has leftover painkillers in his system from post surgery and probably some residual anesthetic, too... plus he got the gabapentin at dinner which can be sedating. He is resting now, though. Just not quite himself yet and very unsteady on his feet, but definitely nothing abnormal given the proximity to the surgery and all the medicine. We'll give him the tramadol later tonight to help him sleep and it was so clear he didn't need it yet, but normally we'll probably give it with the others.

Thanks again for the input! We are keeping a close eye on him and will, but right now he's just sleepy and sleeping. I think I mentioned that I will be taking my dog to a hotel tonight with my partner so we don't have to worry about Sebastian bothering Bailey at all. Frankly, though, Sebastian seems afraid of the cone


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

He may be a little off for 24 hours, but everything should be out of his system by 48 hours (really by 24), and after 3 days or less, he may be a pain in the neck, b/c he's feeling good and wants to go play  The meds may loosen his stool, and after a few days, you can call the Vet and ask if a prebiotic and yoghurt would help. 

You might ask if Vit B, Fish oil, Milk Thistle, and SAM-e might help his liver ... or just a band-aid on a tumor and not worth the effort.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

The problem with the mass on his liver is that we don't know what it is. It could be a tumor, could be benign or malignant, or could be something else. I guess I'm not sure what kind of non-tumorous masses might form on a dog's liver, if any, so maybe there are only so many things it can be. But either way the tests were inconclusive.

Bailey is doing about as well as can be expected, truly. His eye already looks so much better. The swelling and redness have basically completely dissipated, the stitches look good, no discharge, etc. His personality is almost completely back to normal, too. He is having some trouble navigating with the cone but otherwise seems quite steady on his feet, maybe a tad bit of weakness/wobble from the continuing pain medication. One issue is that he is being very fussy about eating from his bowl with the cone on, and it has to stay on 24/7 until the sutures are out. (We may have to take it off for five minutes and hold him still just to clean it, but otherwise, it's not coming off for at least 5-6 days, maybe more.) He will take bribe food, bribe food mixed with dog food, and his dog food alone from our hands and he has no problem drinking from the bowl. He is drinking a LOT, actually. He just doesn't want to eat the dog food and some bribe foods from the bowl for some reason, and we assume it's the cone but beyond that, don't really know why. 

Very early on there was one small incident with fecal incontinence-- actually just the one time-- and our guess is that it was just from the antibiotics. It literally fell out of him as he was tottering around the kitchen on day 2 post-op and he seemed as surprised as we were.

Lastly, he does get very whiny at night before his tramadol dose and we have started giving him just a tiny bit less today because besides the whining and the vet telling us not to be too skimpy, most of the day he doesn't seem to need it... but we're also not being skimpy with it. While we want to be careful about what the whining means, if I'm being perfectly honest I think it means that Bailey has learned that my parents will give him attention if he whines enough. Unfortunately, this is not uncommon behavior when he hasn't just had surgery so I don't know. Obviously it's not ideal but at this point, it is what it is, and it's hard to say if it's truly discomfort or if it's reinforced attention-seeking or a little of both. He also has arthritis, and I know that can get worse at night but he is still fairly active for his size and age. In any case, at the moment he does not whine at all during the day and he gets his tramadol shortly after the whining tends to start, just the way the timing works. We give him some attention whenever there's a short break in the whining and eventually he calms down with the medication. This would partially point to pain, of course, but this is the first time he's ever had to be on any sort of narcotic so I think it's partially the sedating effects of the tram. While not a narcotic or opioid, the gabapentin can be sedating, too. He gets that a couple of hours before his nighttime tramadol dose. 

Speaking of... I work in pharmaceuticals, and am very familiar with tramadol, though not firsthand. He hasn't been on it daily for very long, and he can theoretically have up to three 50mg pills every 12 hours (two doses a day, each dose up to three pills) when he has really getting more like four total pills in the day and today he actually had three (one in AM and two in PM) which has absolutely seemed more than sufficient since it's combined with the Gabapentin. He's on antibiotics too of course but I'm not worried about those. I think Bailey has been on some amount of tram for about 10 days and will be for at least a few more, maybe at least another week. It started before the surgery because of the tumor. 

Because tramadol has both opioid and SNRI-like action, some people find it a beast to get off of, both classes of medications being capable of producing nasty withdrawal symptoms in humans. Normally with a plain opioid you would have to be on it for longer than a couple of weeks for that to happen but SNRIs are weird. I know a dog's system isn't exactly the same as ours but I believe it's closer than, say, a cat. (?) Indeed, I saw a number of human medications on the receipt from the vet after his surgery and many of Bailey and my dog's medicines are also used for people. My question is, has anyone had a dog on tram for any length of time and did they experience withdrawal? Has anyone had a dog on tram for this kind of shorter term period? Even if it's not your dog, do you know any relevant stories/information? We will, of course, also ask the vet but sometimes when I display too much information about any medicine, but especially pain medication, they get judgmental or don't give me a good answer... or one I know is wrong, at least in humans. I have no idea whether or not they will suggest keeping him on it as a result of his arthritis and possible cancer we haven't caught, or if his liver is causing pain. Anyway, I think it's probably clear that I'm just concerned about the possibility of poor Bailey suffering tramadol withdrawal even after a short period of time, though it will be moot if the vet decides to continue. 

Thank you again for all the help and sorry I am so verbose. My day job involves pharmaceuticals but I'm a writer at heart; what can I say!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

My previous dog (12yo) was on tram for a couple of weeks after surgery, and I didn't notice withdrawal symptoms when we stopped. Dosages are usually low enough and brief enough to forestall most problems. I did notice that he seemed to settle and relax much more within 30 min. of giving him the tram. I noticed similar but lesser effects when he was only on gabapentin. Walking him every day, even after surgery on his foot, seemed to help a lot, as did seeing friends during the walk. 

He was on gabapentin for the next 4 years, which seemed to help with nerve issues, and possibly with arthritis. I don't know if the progressive nerve issues or the meds has any effects on the softness of poop, as well as incontinence. 

In addition to the Vet, you can ask folks at your job, as well as consulting with local pharmacists about the drug effects, withdrawals, and interactions. You are allowed to remove the e-collar, as long as you watch Bailey 100% of the time, to keep him from messing with the surgical site, so perhaps he might eat better? And, canned, plain, unflavored pumpkin is a high fiber vegetable that most dogs like, and can be used to help with constipation and diarrhea. I don't know of much to do about incontinence in an old dog, except to clean up ... or try a diaper, if needed.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you again for the advice! 

Another update, good news/bad news. 

The bad news is that the biopsy came back from the surgery and the tumor was secondary, so he has cancer somewhere else and we don't know where. We're not opting for any more treatment. 

The good news is fortunately multifold. Bailey is not young and given that they simply can't find the source of the cancer, it may not yet be large or particularly troublesome. It may be slow growing. We're going to watch Bailey for cues and do our best not to wait too long. 

But the other good news is that as much as you can be certain about these decisions, we all feel like the surgery was the right move. He is doing so well, maybe even more so since we know he still has cancer somewhere. He still has an appetite, no incontinence, seems to not be in pain the vast majority of the time (especially with the pain meds, but at this point he hasn't needed a ton), seems happy, etc. There's honestly almost nothing I can think of to even begin to indicate he's truly done with life. I think the first thing will be his lack of ability to make it up the stairs and spend the night in mom and dad's room. He's struggled for a while but he still does it, he did it the other night. He is clearly an old dog but we don't see a done dog. 

I think I was pretty clear that I was more for a good death, sooner, but I'm glad my parents continued to push. We may still only have weeks with him left, no one ever knows, but right now the time is good time. He may be uncomfortable at times we don't realize but he is not suffering. Even the eye, he's been without sight in that eye for 18 months at least and knows how to get around with just his right. The eye is healing well. There was nothing else to do and we're all so grateful that he's recovering so beautifully. Hopefully he will see his next birthday (February) and then anything else would truly be extra. If he can't make it quite that long, we'll know we did what we could without subjecting him to needless and particularly gruesome procedures. The vet was right. The eye was really cake, all things considered, and he seems happier for it.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Great news! I'd suggest two things: 
1) If you haven't done it, create an 'exit' plan, ask the Vet about details, cost, options, etc. so there are no questions when the time comes.
2) Come up with a plan for when Bailey can no longer go up [ ... or Down ...] the stairs. In my case, I was strong enough to carry my dog up and down 4 steps a few times a day... for more than a year. I couldn't have carried him up a flight of stairs. In your case, you might just accept that he'll sleep downstairs.

You might also ask the Vet about bloodwork for liver and urine workup for kidneys [they may have done this for the surgery] to get an idea of the relative numbers and what that means about liver and kidney function.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Good idea to ask about bloodwork. I think they did some during surgery but not positive. We'll check! 

We actually don't yet have a "final exit" plan in its entirety and of course now is the time to do it, you're right. 

Fortunately, Bailey is used to sleeping both places. He sleeps downstairs with my dog when we're home and he slept downstairs for many years. Actually, I believe he's been downstairs since the surgery besides last night. We can't carry him up so sleeping downstairs it will be, but I don't think that will be too difficult a transition for him. For us, it will mean it's the beginning of the end and will be hard because of that, but at least he has a few sleeping spots he likes and that includes downstairs. 

We all recognize he's almost 14 years old and not a small dog at that. He's really doing as well as he can be under the circumstances. Hopefully he continues to feel well for a while longer yet but we know that this is the last stage of his life and we need to be ready whether it's a month or ten. Right now we're just so grateful that the surgery wasn't completely out of reach financially and that it certainly seems like it will improve whatever time he has left. There's no way that tumor was comfortable.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Wanted to post a brief update for all who replied and/or anyone who finds this thread helpful. Bailey is still alive and actually doing quite well. We don't really have any more answers than the last time except knowing now that he did indeed have more time in him. He will turn 14 in ten days and seems as healthy and happy now as he did a couple of months ago. We all know the decline can be very quick, but so far we haven't really seen it beyond what relatively minor changes have happened over time as he has gotten so old. 

As I keep saying, he could have passed already and we would have still felt the surgery was worth it. But certainly now that he is not only still alive but truly seems happy and healthy and mostly comfortable, though he is on daily pain medicine for the remainder. All I can really say is thank goodness we didn't just leave the tumor and opt to put him down. I guess we would have never known but we would have questioned. We weren't ready, though, and waaayyyyy more important, neither was he.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Glad to hear it. Keep exercising him twice a day, and try to keep him eating healthy. My dog made it to 16yo .... you might be able to stretch to 20yo ;-)


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

I could use some guidance again. Bailey is still alive but I believe we are truly at the end, and my parents just don't see it yet. I _did_ feel the same way in November and was clearly wrong at the time, but I wasn't with him physically then, just worried about his happiness and comfort. Now I have been home with Bailey for the last couple of weeks. When I first arrived, he seemed noticeably less happy than the last time I saw him at holiday time but still OK for his age and condition. After ten days, he seems to have slipped even further. The problem is that he still seems *sort of kind of ok* so (IMO) my parents-- especially mom-- are able to justify it to an extent, but if I were making this decision on my own, I'd be booking a final appointment for next week. 

I get that no one can tell me how to best communicate with my own parents, but I just don't even know where to begin. I filled out a bunch of pet quality-of-life questionnaires for him in November. I went back today and gave him new scores. He's lost a ton of points on pretty much everything, and is right at the threshold of not having a quality of life based on the numbers, but this just backs up what I'm seeing with my own eyes. He still eats, but only if there's some kind of bribe food involved and even that is getting spottier. He is still mobile, but he was already obese and he has arthritis and Mom has been even more free with the treats for the last six months we've known he's dying, and that has helped absolutely nothing in terms of him feeling well and being able to move. 

You can see what a big change this is from even my last post at the beginning of February, and it's only getting more rapid. I just don't know what to do. I don't want this to turn into something I end up resenting my parents for, for allowing my childhood dog to suffer more than necessary. Everyone kept saying "when it's time, you'll know" and now I feel like I know. My parents just can't seem to see it yet, or are willfully fooling themselves because it's so hard. I feel like they need to completely change their mindset. Dad sometimes says, "I know he's sick but sometimes I think, 'maybe we'll have him another for another holiday...'" and I just don't think it's based in any reality. The vets told us back in November-December to expect 3-6 months and while I know any pet or person can outlive a bad prognosis, we're right there and I'm seeing him go downhill. From my perspective, we are NOT at the "beginning of the end." We are solidly in the middle of the end, probably much farther. 

We've had lots of area rugs put around the house for the last two years to help him get up, just to get traction on the wood and linoleum. There's also a tarp on top of carpeting by the back door for messy feet. The other day, he couldn't get up on the tarp. I had to get my arms under him and help him. Mom says, "well the tarp is just slippery." No, the dog is obese, arthritic, and dying. That's why he couldn't get up, even if the tarp didn't help. If he has one good hour, they turn it into a "good day" even if it's not. This is all exactly what I was worried about, exactly what I knew would happen. 

I know that I can't force them to be ready and that trying to will only cause more pain for us. But I HAVE to address this, and quickly, for Bailey's sake. I can't just ignore it. He's my dog as much as theirs, and today I looked in his remaining good eye and what I saw was that he wants nothing more to do with this. 

I just needed to vent some and see if anyone has any thoughts on how to even frame this. I'm not going to bother speaking with Mom until I speak with Dad, as he is much more pragmatic. I simply know they don't want their last memory of Bailey to be of him breaking both his back legs and them having to carry him to the vet to get put down, or anything terrible like that which partially means you waited too long, and that's the point we're getting to, quickly.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

It's hard and no one wants to let go. Plus, dogs make it harder, b/c they hide their suffering.

I knew my dog was at end of life for more than 1.5 years, before i put him down at 16yo. I took him for a walk, letting him hobble off leash at his own pace every day. He looked forward to the walks and to visiting with friends. He may have been in pain, but didn't seem to be suffering ... and that was the key ... he was going downhill, but it was nerve degeneration more than arthritis. The pain meds kept the edge off the pain.

He was heavier than in his prime, but not overweight. But, he could no longer go up and down stairs, or get up from a down position, without help. He was getting incontinent, even in his sleep. His mind was very sharp, he was still learning, but his body was going. The big question: Was I extending his life or prolonging his decline? Although I euth'd him just after Memorial Day last year, I probably could have prolonged things for 6 more months. He might have died in his sleep. But the trigger for me was when we were on the daily hobble and he fell, waiting calmly for me to come pick him back up. I picked him up, and he took a couple of steps, then collapsed again .... And I realized that what I had labelled as a bad day for him, I was now calling a good day ... And this falling twice was new ... but I called it a good day ... and I recognized my self-deception. 

I don't have a good suggestion for how to approach your father and mother, b/c 'Bailey can always hold on for another day' ... until he can't. And, until you've gone through it, I think most people are in denial that waiting too long is much worse than being a little early [Don't word it like that!]. I've been through it many times, and b/c Shep's mind was still sharp, that clouded my decision.

Another thing that helped me in particular is that I knew that I would get another dog/puppy immediately. I ended up adopting a 1.5 yo dog [My first adult adoption. See my avatar.], and he helped me tremendously to speed through the grieving process. [Don't underestimate how this will affect your father, even he may not be prepared for the depths of the grief immediately after the the euth. If YOU are prepared, it will soften the blow somewhat, although you just have to work through the pain .... but a puppy helps ;-) ]


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks hanks, helpful as always. It should go without saying that I'm not trying to push Bailey off this earth sooner than his time, but I do worry he is hiding his pain and I'm obviously worried we are quickly reaching that time. 

I wish Mom and Dad had been more open about really planning for another dog before now, but they haven't, even though they will probably adopt again. We've all discussed it a little bit, enough for me to know it's very likely, but Mom will just barely talk about it, you know, she almost sees it as a disrespectful Bailey replacement. I understand the sentiment to a degree but also find it a tad ridiculous as every dog is different animal-- literally and figuratively-- and no dog will ever replace a dog you've lost. It is also admittedly complicated because the house is really not big enough for three dogs and when I visit, I bring Sebastian, so there are other factors.... but yeah, I've heard the same thing about a new dog being a great way to deal with the grieving process, I just haven't convinced them to start thinking seriously while Bailey is still alive. Hopefully they will move quicker than I'm currently thinking they will after Bailey goes. 

Your post definitely gave me some ideas, at least. Unfortunately, I recognize more of your story about your 16yo than I would like. I also feel what were once Bailey's bad days have basically turned into his good, and he's even had a couple of falls himself. If he truly had a _terrible_ quality of life, this would be a different conversation and I'd be pushing much harder and we would have already waited too long. As I said, he's.... okay for his condition... but the quality is still slipping more day by day. I think I feel only more certain about all of this because my partner grew up on a farm and is 100% in my corner on this one, and he's had the experience and is not afraid to tell me when I'm wrong. Him agreeing with me also doesn't mean I'm absolutely right, but of the four of us, he's the only one with any experience dealing with the end of an animal's life. 

It all kind of hit me at once when I gave him a good look today and saw the numbers on the quality of life questionnaires, but now that it's been a little bit I have been able to take a step back to at least consider how to frame this all to Dad. I do think what I said about their last memories with Bailey is important because again, I'm sure they don't want to be in a situation where something happens to completely force their hand if it's avoidable. Accidents happen, of course, but you know what I mean. I think Dad will also respond "positively" (receptively, maybe) to the questionnaires; he's a numbers guy. I am sure he will take it extremely hard when it finally happens. He's just more pragmatic at this point in the process, and easier to talk to without him getting emotional... yet. I have a feeling that ultimately the grief will surprise even him, though.

Which is not to say I'm ready to lose Bailey. I'll never be ready, and probably my grief will surprise me too. I think I've just been a little more able to see the last six months as a true gift of time, because for a couple of weeks in the fall I truly thought he wouldn't even make it to the holidays. Each time I leave my parents', I say goodbye to Bailey as if it will be my last in case I can't make it home for his last appointment and I spend as much time as I can with him while I'm around. So I'm definitely not trying to toot my own horn or act like I'm so special, but between my parents and I, I do believe I've done what I can to start preparing myself for this. Again, though, not like I could ever really be ready. 

Thanks again, I'll let you know how it goes. Dad does have an idea I'm feeling this way, so it shouldn't be a shock at least.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I don't know that I really want to hear the answer .... but any updates?


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Actually, Bailey is okay for now and he did perk up after what was a little bit of a scary day. I did go back home out of state again and took my dog with me, and that sounds like it was a little hard on Bailey (we left on Saturday) but it was unavoidable this time. We may try to not bring Sebastian down again if it takes B too long to recover from that, as hard as that would be for multiple reasons. He's just been mopey. 

He was still able to make it up the stairs the night we left, and I think each night since? So that's very good. Mom and Dad are going to do some real planning now for the end, and I think that will make everyone feel better. Thank you for checking!


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Just another update....

Can't believe I'm able to say so, but Bailey is still alive and happy. I've said it before but now we all really think we are getting much closer to the end, but it's hard to say how close. At this point the vet is questioning whether the cancer diagnosis was accurate, though it could be very slow growing. Still, no one thought we'd still have him around now when we had to have his eye out in October. 

We would have never known that he would have made it this long if we decided to make an end of things back then, but when we first had his eye out, we just wanted to get him through the holidays. Then once that happened, we just wanted to get him to his birthday in February. Then once that happened, we waited and watched and waited. Every time I came home after being gone for weeks, I expected to see a big decline in his functioning, figuring my parents might see it less if it were gradual. But no. He has still been pretty much himself. 

It's hard to say now if we're truly weeks away (or less) or if the heat is getting to him. It's been brutal here. We do have the ACs going all the time and Bailey lays in front of the fan, but it does seem like it's taking a lot out of him.

Still... he's eating and drinking, seems happy, he's on tramadol and gabapentin but seems comfortable, he can still get up, no accidents... so we are just grateful he's still around and taking it one day at a time. 

Even the vet is amazed she has to keep refilling his RXs. He's like the energizer bunny. If someone had told us when we adopted Bailey at 8 months that he'd live to 14.5+, we'd have said they were crazy, yet here we are.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Terrific! If your parents can walk him at his own pace, for 20 - 30 min [if he wants it] twice a day, it will help both him and your parents. The heat is hard on older dogs, and dehydration can be an issue. A little bit of chipped or crunchy ice in his water may help, but no ice cubes, b/c senior teeth can crack or fracture when chewing on hard ice.

Next time you're there, you might give him a cool bath, and see if that helps to perk him up a little?

And, you Can teach an old dog new tricks, so a little indulgent training with treats may help his mood...

Look for signs of pain, slowing down, having trouble getting up, sleeping longer or more deeply or other changes, and difference in stools or straining. Tramadol may affect stools, gabapentin may deepen sleep with less dreaming?


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## Sydneyrocky (Jul 16, 2017)

Also so sorry to hear of the situation. I too had two dogs who were 10 years old, both passed last year. One had the same type of tumor behind the eye, I had the eye removed however the brain tumor did progresses after that and she was gone with 2 months, she went quietly sleeping in my husband's lap. My other dog had liver cancer and there was no treatment, he failed within a month of the diagnosis, asleep in his bed one day. Prior to that was one that had cancer, spread all through his body, I did do chemo, 10,000.00 was the cost and only prolonged his life about 6 months, I did have to go with euthinasia too alleviate his pain, it was best at that point he was 7 years old. It is never an easy decision, see how yours is doing day by day and you will know the time and decision; it sounds odd but the dog will let you know, mine did.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks for keeping up with the thread @hanksimon. We have still been walking bailey for short walks! He's been doing remarkably well all things considered, but this is the first time we are definitely seeing him slow week-by-week instead of month-by-month. He's clearly not ready to go yet but if I had to make an educated guess, I can't imagine he has much more than a few months. We're watching him closely, of course. 

I've heard that you need to be careful making dogs' water too cold when they are hot because of bloat. can you speak at all to that? Is slightly cooler water OK if it's not ice cold? Or is it not usually a problem and I've just misunderstood? 

He does have a little bit of trouble getting up, but it's more situational. We've got a lot of linoleum and wood floors, so we have area carpets all over to give him some grip. He gets up OK on those, but it's very difficult on the slippery floor.... however, that's difficult for my younger dog, too. A couple of nights ago was the first time we were very concerned about Bailey's ability to get up. We think he accidentally pushed the rugs aside and got stuck, and then while he was straining to get up he had a bit of an accident. Since then, though, he has seemed fine and that's pretty much the first time that's happened. 

Thank you again! 

@Sydneyrock that's very sad  I don't know if you've read the entire thread, but we certainly recognize a lot of your story. It sounds like one of your dogs had the same type of tumor bailey had, maybe? The vet recommended against a brain scan because of his age and cost, so we don't know if he has a brain tumor or not but we're suspicious. On the other hand, his mental capacity has seemed OK for a long time now, so I'm not sure. He had an unidentified mass in his liver too, but whether or not it was cancerous was inconclusive. 

Your story does remind us why we decided not to go overboard with the treatment, though. Chemo is so expensive and so hard on any living being. (Not that I am saying _you _ shouldn't have, of course!!! Every situation is different.) We are honestly lucky he has done as well as he has with no treatment besides the eye removal. As I know I said, we truly expected him to be gone by now. Every day has been a gift.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Yes, I wasn't clear. Don't give the dog COLD water, just cool, tap water. Even if it is a minor reaction, the dog may vomit from too much ice or cold water. My point was to give him a little bit of ice chips to crunch on, as a way to encourage a little more water, if needed.

Again, set up an 'exit' strategy - for example, on a certain date, you'll double-check with the Vet; Or if condition X, Y, Z occurs or stops. In my case, my 16yo could hobble for about 30 min., but he enjoyed his walks. He could not go up and down stairs so I had to carry him, he was incontinent a few times a week or in his sleep, he always needed help getting up from a down position, and he might fall/collapse a few times a week. He probably had an 'acceptable' baseline of pain, but he was Not suffering. We made the decision, when it was clear that he was falling nearly every day, and he fell twice during one walk. Our decision was not based on his condition, as such, but based on his more rapidly increasing decline .... I've waited too long before, and when it seemed like he could go in the next month or two, we decided not to wait, and to release him, before there was any obvious suffering.

Also, in our case, it was not yet hot, and I think that can stress things. In your case, your dog may do a little better after the summer heat begins to cool...


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## Sydneyrocky (Jul 16, 2017)

Glad Bailey is doing ok. I had not had a dog, this was Murphy, with cancer before and thought I'd try the chemo but since then I decided I would not do that again either, Rocky that had the liver cancer went quietly in his sleep. Glad the eye removal went ok too; my Nikki prior to her passing did fine with her removal too. I had one dog Sydney that waited until I got home from a week away business trip to pass; it was the day after I got home and she then just went to sleep; he was 15; so Bailey will let you know how he is and when it's time; sounds like he will keep pushing on for awhile !! Below are pictures of Nikki(black/silver) and Rocky(salt/pepper), Sydney, and one with Sydney and Murphy together.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Bailey is, miraculously, still with us. 

November 17th was a year since his surgery. 

The doctor now questions whether the diagnosis was correct. He ABSOLUTELY had a tumor in his eye-- that was not in question-- but at the time they told us that type of tumor is almost always secondary and they would expect him to have cancer elsewhere. While they found a "suspicious" mass in his liver, cancer besides that in his eye was never confirmed. 

Whatever the reason, he is still here and still has a quality of life. 

Unlike all the other times I've said this, I do think we're approaching the end. His bad days have still not surpassed the good or even close, but it's becoming more of a struggle by the week. He still makes it upstairs to sleep with my parents, which says a lot for his age and size. Seeing him now, it is abundantly clear he was not ready a year ago, six months ago, even a number of weeks ago. I still don't get the feeling that he's quite ready yet, but I do get the feeling it's coming sooner than later. It's a little hard to say when I'm not living here, but I would be the first to tell my parents if he really seemed miserable and he does not, thankfully. 

If he makes it, he'll be 15 in February, so we really can't complain.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Glad he's still hanging in there. He might have some type of nerve degeneration issues, or other illnesses that might not be easy to diagnose, or difficult to treat at his age. So, he might continue to hang on and slowly deteriorate. Try to predict what the minimal desirable quality of life is, and when his "ratio" of bad days passes that threshold, release him. Incontinence or inability to climb the stairs might be that threshold?


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks for your continued support, hank. I think you are right that at this point, there are likely other things going on. He does not seem too uncomfortable; he is still on daily gabapentin and tramadol (2 and 3x/daily, respectively). He seems to tolerate them well and we think they're helping to keep him mostly okay. It is hard to tell sometimes, but certainly no one feels like we're dragging his life out unnecessarily yet, which includes the vet from a recent visit. 

We have definitely had some discussion about minimal quality of life, but we need to have a bigger one. We have definitely thought going up the stairs was/would be/might still be a big indicator; that is, when he is no longer able we will know we are close. We're honestly not sure if we're getting to the point that it's time to purposely keep him downstairs for his own well-being, but nothing has happened in particular to precipitate that other than his age. He hasn't fallen down the stairs or anything. Dad just goes up behind him and keeps his hand on Bailey's rear. But yes, Bailey certainly still WANTS to go every night and badly, so we're not sure if it's worth trying to keep him from doing so or if we'd just be taking away one of his remaining pleasures. We are leaning on the latter... there's no real reason we can think of that he can't go if he wants to, we just worry about him. 

Thank you again. I'll be sure to keep everyone posted.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Climbing stairs is a good indication of mobility. My dog was unable to climb steps (didn't even try) for nearly a year, although he could effect a controlled fall down the steps, if he was excited. I think you should allow him to go for as long as you have the patience to protect him from falling. Plus, I feel that the exercise, including daily walks, helps keep a dog healthy and regular.

The other side of the coin: The 'goal' is not to keep Bailey free of pain ... He probably has a low level of pain and discomfort. One goal IS to keep him from suffering, where you are the measurer of his quality of life. Towards the end, my dog enjoyed treats, but didn't eat very well .... so I enticed him and hand-fed him ... then 'rewarded' him with a few treats .. for eating. So, keep it up...


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

I once again cannot believe I'm able to post this, but Bailey continues to soldier on. He turned 15 in February. 

His eye surgery was 16 months ago. We got the good time we hoped for and then some. He owes us nothing but he continues to be as well and healthy as can be reasonably expected. No real incontinence (a couple of isolated accidents that we think happened when he was straining to get up, probably literally 3-4 in the past year), has started turning his nose up at SOME foods but still enjoying most and eating his meals daily, really nothing too major to report on. 

Hank, as you said, the goal is not to keep him completely free of pain. But we feel quite confident he is not suffering in any sense of the word. He seems like a happy, old, one-eyed dog. 

He even still makes it upstairs every night.


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## Francl27 (May 4, 2017)

I'm in the same boat with mine. He'll be 14 in 5 weeks. Limps a lot. Still somehow makes it upstairs every day and still goes to the window to bark his head off.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Thanks for continuing to update this thread. So glad he is doing well. Tough decision to do something extra like that surgery. Sometimes it is so worth it, old dogs are awesome. I want to keep them around as long as they are happy.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Hey, don't refuse a miracle! Mine lived for a year or two longer than we expected. I walked him (hobbling) every day and he enjoyed seeing neighbors, and things ended only after it was clear that deterioration was getting worse by the week, with increasing bad days. BUt, even at the end, he enjoyed being around people and eating treats... and his mind was clear. 

I'm glad Bailey is keeping on keeping on [sic] ... as long as you can adapt and he is happy, keep it up!


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Francl, good luck with yours. I hope he is still has happy and well as he sounds. Bailey has some walking trouble too but we are lucky he is self-limiting. He pretty much moves where he wants to move and plops down. We also put runners all around the house on the wood and linoleum so he had more grip and that has helped immensely  

Kathyy, thank you, I am more than happy to continue to update this periodically through to the end for everyone else in a similar boat. I have sometimes been frustrated when I find threads I relate to that don't really ever finish. While I realize that not everyone considering surgery for an older dog will be so lucky and that we all have to make decisions for our dogs in particular, of course I am also thrilled to be able to document what can only be described as a wildly successful procedure on an elderly, bordering-on-ancient-given-his-size, dog. Old dogs are wonderful. He is gentle and sweet and agreeable, though he always has been. As long as he seems happy, we're happy, and if he doesn't... like I said, he owes us nothing. 

Hank, thank you for continuing to post in the thread as well. I would say he's lived a solid year longer than we expected, so far! Knock on wood. We are all prepared that it could happen any time, and equally aware most dog owners ultimately have to make that call themselves. We're keeping a close eye on him for now which is all we can do, and so far he keeps on keeping on  The vet is always so happy to see him-- he has always been a people pleaser-- and he's gotten a good bill every time so far. Certainly he may start deteriorating more quickly than his next vet visit at any time, but so far so good. We consider it a distinct honor to be his family and we all want to do right by him at the end. I am hoping this extra time makes that just a little bit easier, since it will still be our first time, assuming we have to make the call eventually. 

Thank you all again for your support.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Since this conversation has been going on for a year, ;-) I feel I may be repeating myself.

Although some Vets and other folks may tell you that you'll know when it is time, it's not always clear. In my case, I think we might have kept Shep going for an additional year or so. We determined that degrading nerve problems didn't seem to be causing significant discomfort, just reduced mobility. So, I had to carry him up and down the few steps into and out of the house; I had to pick him back up when he tripped/collapsed on walks; I had to encourage him to eat by handfeeding; and I had to clean up after his dry incontinence. But, he enjoyed treats, enjoyed eating, enjoyed massages and petting, enjoyed his hobbled walks, enjoyed seeing people. I don't know how much he could hear, I think he could only see movement and shadows, and he slept 22 hours per day, awake for meals and walks. 

It was clear that he was deteriorating, but I saw accelerating deterioration indicated by falling multiple times during a walk. It didn't seem painful or dangerous, and he waited patiently for me to pick him back up. When it was clear that he was falling more frequently, in addition to everything else, we decided that it was not urgent, but it was time ... before things declined too far.

Twenty years ago, we waited too long, and we went outside where a previous dog [Ty] was sleeping in the sun, and flies were biting him, because he was too weak to flick them off. I had placed him on the patio to warm up in the sun, and he was too weak to move. I wanted to make sure that things never got that far again, so when we saw that Shep was declining more quickly, we were able to react more quickly and kindly, without the need for urgency. And rather than needing to relieve his suffering [as we needed to do with Ty], we had the time to finalize things with minimal suffering, in fact stuffing Shep with treats.

On the other hand, the suffering for me ... was a different issue. To relieve my suffering, I searched for another dog the next day, and adopted within a week or two. The need to accommodate a new dog, accelerated the grieving process, leaving no time for wallowing in self-pity. But, I did continue to compare new new dog, Mikee, to the deceased dog, Shep, for about a year...


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## mustluvdogs66 (Mar 30, 2017)

I agree with hanksimon- you don’t always know. Maybe some do, but many don’t.
You’ll second guess yourself and go back and forth. You’ll want to keep him longer and hope he’s ok.
I’m glad he’s doing well & you are confident that he’s not in any pain and doing ok.
Only you can make this choice when the time comes.
Best wishes to you!


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

This will likely be one of the last updates in this thread. 

Amazingly, Bailey has had a great summer. November would have been two years since his eye surgery. We so clearly made the right choice, for that, for him. 

He took a fast turn this past weekend, though. We have scheduled his final appointment for Friday, which will be exactly 15 years and 1 day since we adopted him. 

His preferred vet won't be in until then and I happen to be visiting this weekend and I'd like to be there. As of right now, it doesn't seem cruel to wait four days, but we're all prepared for that to potentially change. Hopefully he will make it until Friday. I have been ready for this, mostly, as much as anyone can be, but he's been doing so well that it never set in that my last visit could be my last visit. He owes us nothing, though, so if he crashes before Friday and Mom & Dad have to bring him, that's what they will do. 

I'm still trying to find out if they scheduled for Friday waiting for me or if that's the soonest his vet is available, regardless. I really only have so much info being away right now, really just that he took a turn and that Mom & Dad both agreed it's time. Dad said Bailey is managing okay and mostly napping, which is what he's done for years, anyway. I'll speak with them a little more later. 

I also wanted to thank everyone who has offered their advice, support, time, and general well wishes over the course of the last two years. It really made the whole process easier for me, although as it turned out he wasn't quite reaching the end of his life when I originally posted. He's had a good couple of years but we'll be so sad to see him go. 15 years is a long time and he is a good boy.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry to hear this but glad that you got another year, and that things are coming together gracefully. Four days may not be too long to wait. Ask your parents to encourage him to eat and drink ... and they might spoil him for the last few days to keep him fed and drinking. Not sure if this is your first, but there is no way to prepare. Just accept that you will break down and that your parents will also be heart broken ... and the grief will come in waves.

I know many people who choose not to get another dog, because the end is so painful. My father was that way when I left home. My personal philosophy is that we have always tried to adopt another dog with a few weeks. It doesn't replace the love or reduce the pain ... but having a new dog to take care of pushed us through the grieving process much more quickly. You did well with Bailey ... there are other dogs that need to share your love.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thanks hanks. He is eating and drinking some for sure and they certainly intend on spoiling him (even more) these last few days. There's been a lot of emotions to unpack already. It is hard not being there. Bailey is the first we're going through this with, yes. My partner and I adopted a 12-week-old puppy when Bailey was 10. Sebastian travels with us and will be a comfort to everyone this weekend but I know it will be particularly hard when we leave this time. 

I think Mom & Dad will also get another dog, eventually. I know I will be gently pushing them to do so. They've waffled a bit in the past about whether or not they would but as we've gotten closer to the end I think they have both thought about how lonely it will be without Bailey. I would also prefer they adopted soon if they are going to, and again I think they ultimately will, but I'm pretty sure they will say that at their age, they won't want to handle a new dog during the winter, but perhaps come spring if they feel they've had enough time to process. There is always a chance they will change their mind about the timing or whether or not they want to do it. 

We are so lucky that we got so much time with Bailey. Other than being a mix, he wasn't a dog we would have expected to live this long. He could have passed three, four years ago and had a full life. His lifelong weight problems could have cut short his life, but they didn't. I am so grateful that he has seemed so happy and capable until now. It was only last week that Mom & Dad finally stopped letting him go upstairs with them for his safety, but I think if he is able to do it, we'll try to get him up to their room for one more night. 

As you say, there's no way to be prepared, but I'm just glad to have any time to process. Even if he can't make it to Friday, I know it's coming and soon, which is at least a step better than "Bailey can't get up so we're calling the vet to do it now." :/ 

I've said from the very beginning that I wanted to be there, so I am extremely thankful that as of right now, it looks like that will be possible. Dad actually said that Bailey has perked up a good deal today, which is good. We're not changing that appointment or anything, but he seems to be hanging in there as best he can.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

I can tell mom and dad are starting to get cold feet a bit and it’s really hard to tell from here whether they are just scared or whether this weekend really was an aberration for Bailey. I guess the real problem was that he was having a great deal of trouble getting up and walking. Dad said he just washed off the deck over the weekend and tried to get Bailey to not pee on the deck immediately and they both think now that maybe he hurt his foot/leg while going down the stairs. 

Apparently he was doing better last night and today so far and has gotten up and is moving around and basically seems back to himself. They’re not cancelling the appointment yet but they’ve sent a few videos and he does basically look how he’s looked for a couple of years. He was walking a little gingerly. 

I don’t know how I feel about all of this. Of course I’d be thrilled if last weekend was a blip and Bailey actually has some more good time in him. He has been amazing. But I just can’t go through scheduling and cancelling his final appointment four or five times. This isn’t that, though, it’s just been a lot to process and now I can feel them moving away from it, which may well be the correct decision after all but I’m not there to see how the dog is doing. 

That’s pretty much the update right now. I’m glad he’s doing well, at least, no question about that.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm glad to hear he is feeling a bit better now. I'm sorry you are going through this, but you and your family seem to be doing exactly what is best for him, and that's all you can do. It can be extremely hard to determine when the "right" time is. They (and I) always say 2 weeks early is better than 1 day too late, but when you're actually dealing with a dog whose time is coming, you also want to get as much time as you can with them. It's a fine line but Im sure everything will work out, and I hope when the time does come, you're able to send him off with your family. 

Best of luck, to you, your family, and Bailey.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you syd. 

Even though it's hard, I think I fall closer to you on this issue. Dad and I have a very different definition of what is "cruel" when it comes to euthanasia and when to make the call. We haven't gone through this ourselves before but just in our talking about Bailey or discussing other family dog situations I know we don't see eye-to-eye. OF COURSE I don't want to rush Bailey and want him to get as much good time as he can, but I'm not sure if there's such a thing as "too soon" at this point with him. He is not out-and-out suffering as best we can tell and his discomfort seems mostly controlled with pain medicine, but he is 15 1/2, has one eye because he had cancer, is morbidly obese, and arthritic. All that said, even the vet agrees that he is in REMARKABLY good shape considering and other than the weekend, he continues to have the quality of life he has had for a long time. So I don't think mom and dad are holding on to him past the point of sense, I just also don't think it's cruel in any sense of the word to possibly be looking at soon, regardless. 

However, it may well be that three days from now is "too soon enough" to push it back, for now, if he continues on his upward trajectory. Frankly, it is more Mom and Dad's decision than it is mine at this point, and furthermore they will never forgive me if they feel like I pushed them into it before they truly felt he was ready. I just don't want Bailey to suffer, but he's not right now and it's not as if I believe Mom & Dad want that to happen either. We'll take it one day at a time. Bailey really has been unbelievable in terms of his adaptability and resilience. His time is closer every day, and possibly it is here already, but this would not be the first time we all thought we could be at the end and were incorrect. 

I do really hope I am able to be there when it's time but realistically I worry that if it doesn't happen this trip, I won't be. It's not a reason to do it now, just something I have to be prepared for. It's not an impossibility for me to potentially get back given a modicum of planning time but I know we might not have that luxury if it turns out Friday's not the day. 

Thanks again for the continued support.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

We have scheduled Bailey's final appointment for 2pm tomorrow and are keeping him comfortable until then. Mom just left for a week out of town and now she will be the one to miss it. I can't leave Dad here alone to do it but have to take last-minute time off from work. This was so not how I wanted things to happen and I wish we had done it Friday. I think we are still doing right by Bailey in terms of trying to head off his suffering, and of course it's only been a couple of days since Friday; he is hanging in as much as possible. But that was the right time for everyone all together and we missed it. You all knew we would. I tried so hard to avoid it but I couldn't push them or force them.

We will get to do it with his preferred vet and tonight he gets high test burger. We will miss him beyond measure.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry to hear this is the final visit, but it's good that you got his Vet.

It's good that you'll be there for your father. If this is his first time, then I don't think he'll be prepared for how hard it might hit him. One thing that may help afterwards is for you to tell him how hard it was for you, and for how much you miss Bailey already ... This may help your father when he hears how you feel. Later on, talking about Sebastian might help, as far as suggesting another dog...


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you for your advice as ever. 

When we brought him today, Dad and I both felt so awful that Mom was going to miss it. She didn't even really get to say goodbye because she was rushing out and Bailey was so tired he didn't want to get up and she didn't want to disturb him. So we decided to ask the vet what she thought about us trying to get Bailey through to Friday so both Mom and I can be there, and the Dr. agreed it did not seem cruel to Bailey to do so based on what she saw and heard. We will still be able to do it with her on Friday. 

We are keeping close by him and helping him move around, he's eating, he's not having accidents on himself, he seems not to be in much pain. He's just lost a lot of leg function, that is the main thing, which is obviously a big thing. In any case, he's with us at home again and Friday is now a hard and fast date. Mom will just be getting back and I will have to leave right after which is terrible, but at least Dad will not be alone and Mom will not have to try and safely drive home knowing Bailey is already gone. It's not ideal and we should have done it last Friday but as long as it is not unreasonable and cruel to Bailey and the vet is onboard, nobody wants to miss it. If he stops eating or is having accidents or anything major happens in between now and then, Dad and I will just have to take him sooner. 

I am feeling frustrated because I feel like I really tried to do my due diligence to avoid the common traps and we kind of fell into them anyway, but I don't know what else I could have done. I am happy to have a few more days with my childhood dog as long as he is not suffering greatly. As best as we can tell, he's doing about as well as could be expected considering we have scheduled his death for three days from now. 

Thank you all again.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

You're allowed to be human ... You don't have to believe it, just accept that you can't make everything perfect and plan for it.... 

I think Friday is good, and it will bring a more complete closure. And, if Bailey isn't suffering, it shouldn't cause any issues. You may even try to get some last few pictures of Bailey. I imagine that he can still stand, if picked up, and held if necessary, so a few more days should be OK, and a little incontinence is not an immediate issue at this stage. Just clean up any messes. 

Also, You might consider who should be driving home afterwards ... your mother may be able to handle the rush of emotion and tears better?

If you're flying home afterwards, take a few small towels, not just a handkerchief or two. The flight attendants will be very sympathetic, and some fellow travellers may commiserate. 

If you are driving home, be very careful. There is not a way to prepare yourself for the flood of emotion, so plan for various places that you can pull over, as needed. And, I recommend not driving at night. ... I think that my last euth was my 4th, and I still broke down afterwards in the parking lot....


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Thank you again for the valuable advice. I don't drive but my partner and I are talking about offering to drive everyone there and back on Friday before we leave for home. I feel so badly leaving them right after but I have no choice and at least they will have each other.

You're right, of course, that Friday will help bring more complete closure. I know it took a lot of weight off Mom's shoulders this week, too, and again with the caveat that Bailey is doing as well as can be expected, she needs both the closure and the ability to focus on her work this week. Dad needs a couple of days alone with Bailey, and I really needed this "break" (I use the term lightly) from work. Dad and I will have the next couple of days with Bailey and Mom is greatful beyond measure that she will get to see him off. 

We're driving home, and since I don't drive anyway my partner will be driving. I'll be in the backseat likely crying and hugging our dog.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Also, he is still in good enough shape that we are definitely taking photos, and video of him enjoying his hamburger last night, etc. He is undoubtably struggling but is still getting enjoyment from food and love and attention and the like.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Just wanted to update to say I'm feeling a bit better about things today. I no longer really feel like we waited too long, just that last Friday would have been better in some ways to avoid the hecticness. But in terms of Bailey, he has continued to be absolutely remarkable. He is doing pretty well. He seems happy, he's able to walk (but has a really hard time getting up), he's able to go out to pee, etc. I know I've already mentioned some of this but he just continues to do well and I'm glad that as of right now, he's in a place where we want to remember him. So hopefully everything will work out the next couple of days and go as smoothly as it can, knowing there's no way to be prepared.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

Bailey has done well through the week, but today is the day. Thank you all again for your support.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Sorry you had to go through this. Hope everything went as ... smoothly.. as possible. 

Just a footnote for after the fact ... Even now, two years after my last euth, I'm mostly over it, but I can still begin to tear-up over the unfairness of having to euth a 'perfectly happy' dog ... why can't they fix him, or clone him, or give him a new, healthy body? And, similar irrational thoughts. 

Those thoughts are normal... and they will diminish in impact. With each successive euth the pain does not go away, but it is less sharp, less enduring, and more bearable. It never gets fun [ ;-) ] ... but it does get better.


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## Bash-full (Dec 15, 2013)

I didn’t have the emotional energy to update sooner but it was too hard for Mom to come back from her trip at 11 on Friday and bring him in at 2. I was able to get more time off from work and we gave Mom one last weekend with Bailey. He did well and we all got to say our goodbyes. 

That was the last time we pushed it back, though, and we still feel like we did it in time to prevent undue suffering. We brought him this morning and he passed peacefully. 

It still hasn’t set in yet but everyone feels like they were able to get closure that would have been missing, at least for Mom, if we had to bring him Friday. It was hard for it to drag out so long— I really didn’t want to reschedule so many times— but ultimately it was the right choice.

We miss him so much already but are glad he won’t suffer anymore.


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