# Considering Australian Cattle Dog but live in apartment



## Crashher0

TL;DR Active couple wanting to get an Australian cattle dog but live in an apartment looking for suggestions. 

Long version:
My girlfriend and I have been looking at getting our first dog since we moved out of our parents houses and in together. We both have completed college and have been in the work force for around 1-3 years to give you a rough estimate of our ages. We recently moved in together and we have been together about 5 years, however we both agree there is something missing in our lives and that is a dog. 

This wont be our first dog as we have both grown up with dogs in our families at all times. She grew up with labs and goldens, while I grew up with a slew of 2x goldens, 2x border collies, 1x german/husky mix, 2x labs and recently an ACD/collie mix.

We have been considering an Australian Cattle dog as our first dog together for a few reasons however we have one worry and that is we know ACDs are active little guys and we live in a 1 bedroom apartment (890ish square feet). Now trust me we have read everywhere people saying ACDs cant be apartment dogs they need a job 24/7 and we realize these dogs need lots of attention but alot of those people have never actually tried it just stating their opinion. My families ACD/collie pup is a fetch and bike ride machine and runs circles around our senior labs intelligence/trick wise. The intelligence is one of the main reasons we agreed we wanted an ACD along with its medium size. Here are our ideas and thoughts we would like to know if this would be ok to be done.

Since our apartment isn't too big we wanted something small-medium sized and I am not a fan of the small (barking cats) that are hard to train as cute as they may look but something like a lab or golden will be too big for our apartment with the cage being the biggest space eater. 

I grew up on a farm and all the dogs I grew up with were trained pretty well by my dad, brother, and I to the point where we can take them places and not worry about them being off the leash. I will be training this ACD to do the same and learn plenty of tricks. I cant stand dogs that don't listen and I will expect highly of this dog, my girlfriend, and myself to make sure we all learn and teach correctly. My girlfriends dogs have been a mix of fetchers that wont leave you if you have their ball to dogs that are mamas boys and don't listen the best some times.

The dog will be crate trained and crated for at most 7 hours on certain days for the first couple years until it can be trusted to roam the living area. I work less than 15 min from the apartment so I will be going home on my lunch hour daily to let them out/potty/play. So max they would be crated 4 hours at a time.

We both love Fetch, Frisbee, games, and I enjoy roughhousing with dogs so the dog will get a daily walk and plenty of play time either at a dog park or behind the apartments playing fetch. We go on bike rides occasionally and especially when going camping with my family so they will get some jogging in. Of course there will be more bike rides when the weather is warmer. 

Our current families dogs are pretty welcoming of new dogs and we plan to associate our pup with as many neighbors dogs and people as possible to keep it friendly. Currently we are one of the only people in our complex without a dog(s) so there will be lots of other dogs/people to mingle with. We also plan to take the dog everywhere we go when we visit family/camp/travel so the dog wont be kenneled unless its absolutely necessary.

We are hoping that raising a pup from a young age it will get use to the noises associated with living in an apartment so we can teach them commands like quiet early to keep them from barking while we are gone.

We have also considered a border collie since it is around the same size and intelligence, however we both would like an ACD way more. We are looking for input from people who have either done this or have suggestions that will help. Stories welcome.


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## Amaryllis

We have numerous "barking cats" on this forum that are well-trained and participate in sports, regularly hike, etc. 

Owning a dog on your own is not like having a dog when you're a kid. Your parents did a lot you didn't realize. As for "well, nobody tried having an ACD in an apartment", well, I've never tried putting a potato chip up my nose, but I think you'd trust me if I told you it's not a great idea.

ACDs are a lot of dog. They have really high exercise requirements, can be really reactive, are incredibly smart (which is as much blessing as curse) and can get neurotic and out of control very quickly if left to their own devices. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying you probably shouldn't. You'll ignore me.

I would suggest an adult mixed breed from a local shelter or rescue. Something nice, biddable and good with other dogs that doesn't have the insane drives and needs that working dogs like ACDs do.


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## ireth0

I don't have an ACD, but I have read a lot about them (we have some ACD enthusiasts on this forum) and the impression I get is that one of the most difficult things about them is that as an owner you need to be ON POINT all the time. If they think you're not on your game and they have a better idea, they're going to do their idea instead, which may not be something you like.

They demand a lot from their handlers, not just in amount of exercise but in being actively engaged with them. They don't leave a lot of room for handler error, compared to a more forgiving dog like a lab. 

I do agree that they're the kind of dog that needs a job, whether that be herding or Frisbee, they have that drive to do the thing. If you don't engage their mind as much as their body you're asking for trouble.


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## Crashher0

Amaryllis said:


> Owning a dog on your own is not like having a dog when you're a kid. Your parents did a lot you didn't realize. As for "well, nobody tried having an ACD in an apartment", well, I've never tried putting a potato chip up my nose, but I think you'd trust me if I told you it's not a great idea.
> 
> ACDs are a lot of dog. They have really high exercise requirements, can be really reactive, are incredibly smart (which is as much blessing as curse) and can get neurotic and out of control very quickly if left to their own devices. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm saying you probably shouldn't. You'll ignore me.
> 
> I would suggest an adult mixed breed from a local shelter or rescue. Something nice, biddable and good with other dogs that doesn't have the insane drives and needs that working dogs like ACDs do.


I see I may have struck a bad note with the barking cat reference and I apologize, to each its own when it comes to your 4 legged friend however this is my OP and we agree we could never own one. 

As for the dogs I was raised with you jump to conclusions, I grew up with responsibilities. From the time my brother and I were 10 to the time I moved out the dogs were OURS so other than physically driving to the store to buy food (which we weren't able to do because we weren't old enough) everything was done by us. The dogs before were trained by our dad who taught us what to do. The dogs were not the only things we raised we had lots of other individual animal responsibilities from small rabbits and chickens all the way up to hogs and cattle. 

We realize ACDs have high exercise requirements which is why I wrote about the planned daily walks, dog parks, and fetch/frisbee as well as games and learning commands in the apartment all night until bed time. We spent hours with our dogs growing up and plan to spend as much time with the new dog as we possibly can. We aren't looking for a dog just to say we have a dog to come home to then forget about. 

We have considered adopting from a local place however most high end places require more background work than my drivers, hunting, and firearms licenses combined and the places that don't require insane amounts of background only have "Aggressive breed" mixes that aren't allowed in our complex.


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## parus

My recommendation would be that if you want an ACD, get an adult ACD or mostly ACD from a shelter or rescue, so you can pick one that's known to be a little lower-key than the average ACD, and you can skip the hyperactive adolescent years, which are the really rough ones with apartment life. If you get a pup and it grows up to be a really wound up example of a dog you're stuck with a decade plus of that with at least the first part of it stuck in a tiny living space, which isn't fair to you or the dog. 

I'd much rather keep the average giant dog in a small apartment than the average ACD, tbh, regardless of size. A medium size highly active dog takes up a lot more physical and psychological space than even the biggest sluggier dog. Plus there's the noise level and neighbors to think of.

The only truly vicious dog I've ever personally encountered was an ACD that was continually understimulated and cooped up. It ended up mauling my mother and being put down. Obviously a really extreme example, not the norm, but they're definitely dogs that need to work, IMO.

I can almost guarantee there's a shelter or rescue in driving distance that will adopt to you. For every one that has crazy stringent requirements there are others that are like HERE TAKE A DOG THANKS BYE.


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## elrohwen

The size of the house doesn't really matter. My dog is confined mostly to the kitchen and family room, and our bedroom at night, which is less than 1k sqft. It doesn't matter to him that there is another 1k+ sqft in the rest of the house because he's not exercising inside, he's exercising outside. It's all about how much time and effort you are willing to put into the dog, not how big your home is.

With that said, ACDs can be a lot of dog and require a lot more of your time and energy that you might expect. On a farm, with your parents doing most of the care, it might have been easy to just let the dog out. In an apartment, you're going to need to commit to at least an hour walking per day (all at once, at a good pace) at least while the dog is young. Trust me that this is very much not fun when it's freezing cold and dark outside after work, or you've agreed to meet friends at 6 so you have to leave work early, run home, and walk the dog before you can go out with them for an hour or two.

It's not impossible to have an ACD in an apartment, and I really don't think that the size of your dwelling really matters, but I don't think I would recommend one for your situation. 

They are also not known for being dog friendly, which may be a problem since you talk about wanting your dog to be with family and friends' dogs.


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## parus

elrohwen said:


> The size of the house doesn't really matter. My dog is confined mostly to the kitchen and family room, and our bedroom at night, which is less than 1k sqft. It doesn't matter to him that there is another 1k+ sqft in the rest of the house because he's not exercising inside, he's exercising outside. It's all about how much time and effort you are willing to put into the dog, not how big your home is.


This is a sentiment I hear a lot, but I think a small house is a lot different than a small apartment. So is a portion of a house, where you have additional non-dog space.

Having lived for a couple years in a small apartment with a very energetic, bouncy dog, I wouldn't do it again by choice.


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## elrohwen

parus said:


> This is a sentiment I hear a lot, but I think a small house is a lot different than a small apartment. So is a portion of a house, where you have additional non-dog space.
> 
> Having lived for a couple years in a small apartment with a very energetic, bouncy dog, I wouldn't do it again by choice.


I guess I should have added that during week days I've been living in a small-ish 2 bedroom apartment with Watson and my parents, for the past 7 months, and it hasn't been a problem. He's pretty high energy, and it's nice to also have a house to go back to, but I could do it long term if I needed to and it wouldn't be a problem


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## Crashher0

Thanks for the input parus and elrohwen
All the points you bring up are ones we have read about and discused as possible issues of "what ifs"

My biggest worry was back home we could let the dogs go run around outside, without worry of them leaving the property in an apartment I cant exactly trust my dog off the leash everywhere some places less than others obviously. 

The issue with dog size is we are in an apartment that sets weight limits and breed restrictions. Nothing larger than a lab (basically) and nothing considered "Aggressive".
Also the issue with us having a small apartment we have room for a medium sized kennel at most, so that kinda limits our breads a bit. 

Doing a little research how do Aussie Shepherds stand on the needs list? My girlfriend is checking this from her work messaging me different spaniel breeds. Any other breads that would be a little better suited to apartment life without being haywire. I am spoiled our ACD/Collie mix Si as in uncle Si from duck dynasty is one of the best and smartest dogs I have ever had he listens better than any other dog I have ever had and will play for hours which I love but I dont know how he would do in my apartment now for a couple years.


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## elrohwen

Crashher0 said:


> My biggest worry was back home we could let the dogs go run around outside, without worry of them leaving the property in an apartment I cant exactly trust my dog off the leash everywhere some places less than others obviously.


In an apartment, I would assume that you will never be able to let the dog off leash. Not that it won't ever happen, but the odds are a lot smaller when you don't have your own land. You might want to go to dog parks, but ACDs are not good dog park dogs in general so that may not be an option. So plan that you will be doing all exercise on leash, or having to drive a decent distance to get somewhere you can do off leash stuff.



> Doing a little research how do Aussie Shepherds stand on the needs list? My girlfriend is checking this from her work messaging me different spaniel breeds.


Aussies are fun dogs. Probably more dog friendly and dog-park-dogs than ACDs though it depends on the lines and the individual. The energy needs are going to be similar.

Spaniels are super fun dogs. Off leash reliability can be iffy - they are hunting dogs and sometimes following their nose is their priority. It can be done and they don't tend to range as far as the pointing breeds, it's just not as easy as herding dogs. They are fun and engaging and love to be with their people though.


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## missc89

Crashher0 said:


> Doing a little research how do Aussie Shepherds stand on the needs list?


Totally biased right here, Aussies are great! I (currently) live in a 3 bedroom apartment, and I've seen at least two others within the complex (we vary from 1 bedrooms to 3 bedrooms where I live) and there's also a lot of places I can walk my dog outside, etc, and my exercise plan looks a lot like yours (right down to the 'I live 15 minutes away from work so I will be walking my dog during lunch as well'). I think Aussies are a great choice if you want something that is intelligent with a lot of energy but is good with dogs, can be trained to have an off switch, and you can also get a dog from a "show" breeder instead of a "working" breeder to get a dog that isn't quite as high energy. They are similar to ACD in terms of intelligence and energy, but from what I've read between the two, the Aussie is more easy-going than the ACD. (People, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong here!)

PM me if you want more information on Aussies specifically, or talk to Keechak. She's helped me SO much in my quest to getting an Aussie, and I'm obsessed with doing research so I know all the text-book information regarding Aussies too.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

I agree an ACD is a bad idea unless you are going with an adult from a shelter with a known temperament. Puppies in an apartment are just an all around bad idea anyway. They cry and get you in trouble for noise complaints. 

My Aussie would not do well in an apartment. While she has a fantastic off switch, she is what some would consider very BARKY. When she wants to play, she barks. When she is playing, she barks. Aussies like to bark and is not easily trained out. Also.. while they generally have off leash skills.. mine does not. Keep in mind that no matter how much training you do that off leash might not be an option because dogs are individuals regardless of breed and don't always live up to our standards. Not to say the right Aussie wouldn't work.

Since you are obviously interested in the herders.. I say look into adult/adolescent herding breeds in the shelter. Find an individual dog that fits what you want moreso than a breed.


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## Crashher0

elrohwen said:


> Aussies are fun dogs. Probably more dog friendly and dog-park-dogs than ACDs though it depends on the lines and the individual.
> 
> Spaniels are super fun dogs. Off leash reliability can be iffy - they are hunting dogs and sometimes following their nose is their priority. It can be done, it's just not as easy as herding dogs. They are fun and engaging and love to be with their people though.


See being off the leash is a huge deal to me, I want my dog to be not more than 10 feet away and never more and listen to commands while moving, wait at a crossing for me to cross and give the OK, not run off when it smells something and always bring the ball back during fetch without getting side tracked.

We keep Si on a leash while walking/biking at camp grounds for his safety from cars and other animals but any other place like walking paths, sidewalks, running down the road he knows no more than 10-20 feet away if we say his name he stops and sits, and if he reaches a crossing he stops and waits for us to catch up and check for cars. He wont even run across the road chasing his ball he sits and stares until we realize the ball bounced across the road and go get it for him. The dog is brilliant and I will want off leash security with whatever I have.

Like I said I have high expectancies of whatever dog we decide to get, which is also a reason I'm kind of leery about adopting anything other than a pup. Those first few months as a puppy are crucial when teaching them and word association.


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## missc89

IME, whether or not your dog can walk off leash has a lot to do with how you train your dog, and also your dogs personality.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Crashher0 said:


> See being off the leash is a huge deal to me, I want my dog to be not more than 10 feet away and never more and listen to commands while moving, wait at a crossing for me to cross and give the OK, not run off when it smells something and always bring the ball back during fetch without getting side tracked.
> 
> We keep Si on a leash while walking/biking at camp grounds for his safety from cars and other animals but any other place like walking paths, sidewalks, running down the road he knows no more than 10-20 feet away if we say his name he stops and sits, and if he reaches a crossing he stops and waits for us to catch up and check for cars. He wont even run across the road chasing his ball he sits and stares until we realize the ball bounced across the road and go get it for him. The dog is brilliant and I will want off leash security with whatever I have.
> 
> Like I said I have high expectancies of whatever dog we decide to get, which is also a reason I'm kind of leery about adopting anything other than a pup. Those first few months as a puppy are crucial when teaching them and word association.


Yeah.. I thought my Aussie would be very obedient since I had her as a puppy and be off leash reliable etc. Nope. She is an individual and a bit stubborn. I understand why the wanting a pup.. but getting one in an apartment can be a huge pain in the butt.


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## elrohwen

Honestly, if those are your expectations, you are going to be disappointed in pretty much any dog. I know dogs with near perfect recall and they are still not that well behaved. Dogs are not robots. Those amazing great dogs are often born and not made. Putting those kinds of expectations on a puppy is going to be rough for you and the puppy. 

Also, getting a puppy is more of a crap shoot for temperament than an older rescue in foster care. The dog I know with naturally perfect recall was adopted at 9 months old and had been a stray.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

elrohwen said:


> Honestly, if those are your expectations, you are going to be disappointed in pretty much any dog. I know dogs with near perfect recall and they are still not that well behaved. Dogs are not robots.


Yeah. This is the vibe I'm getting. I see too many people that had perfect childhood dogs from a breed or mix, then want that breed they had growing up and are surprised when that dog is nothing like what they expected.


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## Laurelin

Crasher, depending on your area there are a lot of ACDs and ACD type mixes available in shelters in some parts of the country. I've met all kinds of ACDs. Heelers are very popular here and not always bred to standard. I see huge 70 lb ones, tiny ones (15ish inches and purebred), docked tail, full tail, stocky, slim, high energy, low energy, some I meet are very shy and reserved, others friendly, others very protective. Just pointing out that they vary quite a bit like any breed that gets popular seems to do. 

What I'm saying is that a rescue could be a great option especially if you're anywhere near Texas or neighboring states. 

My dog is probably some sort of ACD x terrier thing from a shelter and he's great! He's smaller (21 lbs) and very fun to have around. Tons and tons of energy but a very good dog for an active person to own. I've been thrilled with him. I may be biased a bit 

With an adult or even a mix you can often find a dog that has traits that fit you better than the average member of the breed. An older puppy or adult is a good way to really get a 'what you see is what you get' kind of deal. Hank was 8 months when I got him.


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## Laurelin

For the record, Hank is not okay off leash in many areas. He has too much prey drive.


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## parus

Crashher0 said:


> Like I said I have high expectancies of whatever dog we decide to get, which is also a reason I'm kind of leery about adopting anything other than a pup. Those first few months as a puppy are crucial when teaching them and word association.


This is exactly why people are recommending a more grown-up dog. The only way to guarantee you get the attributes you're set on, is to get a dog that already has the attributes you're set on. 

Puppies aren't as malleable as people think they are, and breeds aren't _that_ standardized in terms of temperament, so while one can get a sense of the possibilities and probabilities by looking at the parents and at the breed standards, it's ultimately a dice roll.

If there are attributes you cannot live without in the dog, a pup is generally not a good choice. (Additionally, with a pup you will probably not really get what you want until after adolescence, even if it's a fantastic pup destined to grow up to be the best dog ever, so you've got up to two years before the dog gets there. It can be a long two years, for someone who has an ideal in mind.)

Puppies are for people who like surprises.


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## Laurelin

Oh I'll just make this a separate post.

RE: apartment- keep in mind Hank is a MIX and not representative of the breed as a whole but here's been my experience. though every ACD person that has met him in person at agility shows has pegged him as being probably a 50/50 ACD x rat terrier mix.

I think he would be ok in an apartment if he got a lot of exercise outside of it. He does fine on my work schedule but I come home and work with him mid-day. He has a great off switch but he also gets substantial exercise. When he's not on, he's sleeping and chilling just fine. 

He has a ton of energy. I think he's mellowing slightly at a yearish... or maybe I've just adjusted to it. He is a lot higher energy than any of my past dogs (and no they weren't all 'barking cats' lol). Hank is higher energy than most purebred heelers we meet. 

He is ok at the dog park but also is young. He is very very pushy with other dogs. He can overwhelm at times and loves to bark in their faces, bite them, and chase (and bark and bite). He does not do well with toy and small dogs at all (ironically). He's realized the toy dogs he lives with are not playthings most the time but I still run herd on that. He does not back off well at all with dog/dog signals. He will tell off dogs 3-4 x his size. Physically he is just tough and just plain physical.

I expect (and I could be wrong) that when he matures he will not be a good dog park dog. Or at least not be a good choice for a busy environment. All of my friends with purebred heelers have females but those dogs WILL fight other dogs. I call them all 'space bubble dogs'. Hank is not dog aggressive at all (yet). 

He learns very fast and is just a lot of fun to train (I compete in agility). He's got drive and energy for sure.

Um my big warning would be that he bites a ton. Rips clothes, leaves bruises, etc. He does not understand having a soft mouth. :/

He is actually very people friendly and confident. I meet a lot of purebreds that aren't though. 

Hank is also not a dog that takes perceived unfairness well, even from me. I don't want to make it sound like he's aggressive, because he's not at all. He's a very sweet dog. But he has some guarding tendencies particularly about controlling space and doors and comings and goings. He has snapped at me once early on in the game when I tried to remove him off furniture and although he's only 20 lbs, he can be pretty scary. I think it comes back to that tendency he has to escalate conflict versus diffuse like a lot of other dogs tend to have. 

He is very different than my past dogs though. Not a hard dog for me to own, really, if I'm being honest. The first few weeks to first couple months were a bit rough and an adjustment. Once he got a stable schedule it got better. Overall he's very fun, very active, very smart, affectionate, a total mama's boy, and just a really great little dog. I would like a purebred one day.

Hopefully some people with real heelers will chime in.

ETA: Also Hank does stuff like this all the time. That wall is pretty much my height. 

hank runs up walls by summerpapillons, on Flickr


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## Crashher0

missc89 said:


> IME, whether or not your dog can walk off leash has a lot to do with how you train your dog, and also your dogs personality.


This is my experience too, the more you work with a dog the more you know what they are thinking when they are on the move, their movements tell you what they are about to do and if you have taught them enough commands they can comprehend you can take their attention the second they look like they get side tracked.

parus I am not much of a surprise kind of person but I understand what you are saying. My worry a grown up dog may not show its true colors till you get it home and out of the shelter. 

Laurelin Thank you so much for your long write up  . I really enjoy people giving actual stories of their dogs so I can be the judge of what your dog is like to get an idea. Like would this or that be OK with me or how would I react to this or that. I understand people are trying to help out but regurgitating what anyone can read online doesnt help, I really apretiate your time to write all that up very helpful! thank you!

HOLY BALLS that dog can jump!


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## CptJack

Crashher0 said:


> parus I am not much of a surprise kind of person but I understand what you are saying. My worry a grown up dog may not show its true colors till you get it home and out of the shelter.
> !


Here is the issue:

A puppy isn't going to show its true colors until it's 18 months - 2 years old.

Puppies come programmed with personalities and genetics matter, a lot. 

What you're looking for in a dog ONE of my 3 raised from puppy does could maybe be. And it's not the BC/ACD mix. Or the GSD mix (God no). It's the probable chi mix who weighs 11lbs. Who looked like a border collie puppy when I got her .

If you're not good with surprises you NEED to get a dog who has been living in a foster home and is a known quantity, because the puppy isn't it.


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## lil_fuzzy

I haven't read all of the replies, so apologies if this has already been mentioned or I have missed something crucially important to the discussion.

I believe any breed of dog can live in an apartment, as long as they are given physical and mental stimulation. Dogs with a good off-switch will just go to sleep inside the house anyway, and be active when you take them out. This is of course provided that you do actually take them out, they're obviously not going to just settle down to sleep inside if you never take them out.

However, puppies of all breeds are crazy and never sit still. They are prone to bark and chew and run in circles all day long, even if you take them out regularly. They just don't sit still, and this is especially true for high energy breeds.

Because of the apartment thing and being your first dog as an adult, and also the fact that you want a specific personality and a dog who will be calm inside and when alone, I agree with everyone who said to get an adult dog. There is nothing you can teach a puppy that you can't teach an adult dog, and you don't get more attached to a puppy than an adult dog.

Also, as someone already mentioned, dogs come with a pre-programmed personality from birth. It's not all in how you raise them. So you can't just get a puppy and think because it's a puppy you can shape it to be whatever dog you want. If you need certain personality traits, you need to get an adult dog.


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## luv mi pets

I do know of families who live in suburbs and apartments that live in the big city who have dogs that resemble ACDs. Some come in wearing muzzles and other come in with a wicked wagging tail. and a tongue that is trying its best to find a body part to lick. So it is possible. Most of these I will say suffer from obesity. 
\
I also have the knowledge of knowing working ACDs. Some are really good when the owner is around others are not so good. One of my friends has 3 of them and all different litters. one is an ACD/Aussiex Her male ACD which came off of a ranch in Oklahoma is actually the nicest one of the bunch. Inside of the house they just lay in their crate or floor. Outside is a whole other story. Yes it does help to get the piss and vinegar out of them so they do have an 'off' switch when they are inside. Most of my other friends do not allow the dog inside. Some are allowed in the porch but not the house. For the most part if the owners are inside the dog is laying on the porch waiting for the owner to come outside. My own outside dogs spend more time just laying around sleeping than playing. 

One of the breeds I do own is a Miniature American Shepherd (MAS). He now at the age of 2 has realized that inside he sleeps and outside is for play. Outside he is a dog on Mountain Dew. He goes constantly. 

They do not tend to be a yappy barky dog rather quiet. You have had experience with this breed in a mix. I think you should try other rescues. Some rescues are hard to adopt from and others will help load the dog into the car for you. I do not where you live but petfinder.com should certainly be of help to you. I would agree a young juvenile to young dog would be better for you than a puppy. Puppy you will have to wait for the pup to grow up before you can do running and hard exercise with the dog. Juves you will get a better idea of what type of temp your dog will have.


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## parus

Crashher0 said:


> parus I am not much of a surprise kind of person but I understand what you are saying. My worry a grown up dog may not show its true colors till you get it home and out of the shelter.


So a couple days or weeks (for a shut-down shelter/rescue dog) versus a couple years (for a pup). And rescues will take dogs back, generally, and many do a "trial period" kind of a thing. One seems like a much more logical choice to me. Plus with a rescue you can get one that's been fostered, and they should know the dog well.

I've done pups and I've done adult adoptions. As a working adult with responsibilities it's adults only from now on for me until I retire, or start working from home.


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## ireth0

Just for another point of comparison; I adopted my dog at an estimated 3 years old, and she ticked all the boxes of being exactly what I had been looking for. Even came with bonuses I didn't know I was looking for, but certainly appreciate.

I agree that an adult rescue is much more predictable than a puppy.


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## Crashher0

Thanks for all the input, we talked about pups and adoption and everything in this thread all night last night. We still are ideally set on a pup but have considered adoption of something older if a litter doesn't come along. We are currently getting our references in line and everything. We have taken a step back on the ACD unless older and calmer, we both agree we don't want a neurotic dog but again we have size and breed limitations. We have opened research into springer spaniels, and aussie shepherds as well as mixes. I found a 6yo aussie shepherd boy who was described as very calm and old man-ish up for adoption near us I was very sold on the description. My girlfriend is still very set on a puppy, however I have opened up a little bit for adopting something older.


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## elrohwen

Crashher0 said:


> Thanks for all the input, we talked about pups and adoption and everything in this thread all night last night. We still are ideally set on a pup but have considered adoption of something older if a litter doesn't come along. We are currently getting our references in line and everything. We have taken a step back on the ACD unless older and calmer, we both agree we don't want a neurotic dog but again we have size and breed limitations. We have opened research into springer spaniels, and aussie shepherds as well as mixes. I found a 6yo aussie shepherd boy who was described as very calm and old man-ish up for adoption near us I was very sold on the description. My girlfriend is still very set on a puppy, however I have opened up a little bit for adopting something older.


Glad to hear you're keeping your options open!

My friends have an ACD mix (possible all ACD) who is almost everything you want, except that he is reactive to other dogs on leash. But he's awesome, pretty much perfect recall (with almost no training), smart as a whip, very responsive. He's pretty go-go-go, but at 2.5 years old he's settled and doesn't need much exercise. They have a young baby and there's a lot of snow on the ground, so he's not getting out that much and he's been fine. They got him at 9 months through a rescue and he was found as a stray down south. Hopefully you can find a dog like him.

If you're looking into springers, I would recommend Welsh as well as English. They are fairly similar, but definitely have different temperaments. The English tend to be bouncier and more hyper, and sometimes more scatter brained. The Welsh are more reserved with strangers and more level headed and have a better off switch in the house.

ETA: I also totally get wanting a puppy. I wanted a puppy too. I just think you have to adjust your expections if you get a puppy, because even a well bred pup is a bit of a crap shoot. You can expect it to be somewhere on the spectrum for the breed, but every breed has variation. So I think you have to decide if you expectations are more important, or getting a puppy is more important. In my case I went puppy, so either answer is correct. Also, young dogs can be PITA hell on wheels for a couple years, but then turn into the best dogs ever, so again, keep expectations reasonable and you'll be fine.


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## Crashher0

elrohwen said:


> If you're looking into springers, I would recommend Welsh as well as English. They are fairly similar, but definitely have different temperaments. The English tend to be bouncier and more hyper, and sometimes more scatter brained. The Welsh are more reserved with strangers and more level headed and have a better off switch in the house.


Its funny you say that last night my girlfriend was looking up spaniels and she was hooked on a bunch of welsh springers and kept showing me pictures and asking me what I thought. Looking around and googling stuff in our area we havent found too many puppy options that weren't show dog litters. ($$$ :faint: $$$). We have set a budget and I am strict on staying close to it because of all the other amenities it will need that we will have to get too. 

If anyone has contacts in indiana or west ohio.


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## elrohwen

Crashher0 said:


> Its funny you say that last night my girlfriend was looking up spaniels and she was hooked on a bunch of welsh springers and kept showing me pictures and asking me what I thought. Looking around and googling stuff in our area we havent found too many puppy options that weren't show dog litters. ($$$ :faint: $$$). We have set a budget and I am strict on staying close to it because of all the other amenities it will need that we will have to get too.
> 
> If anyone has contacts in indiana or west ohio.


Well, price isn't everything. Dogs from reputable breeders are priced that way because they have extensive health testing, and because breeding isn't cheap. At least in Welsh, they are shown to prove that they are decent examples of the breed, not because they are super fancy dogs only bred for show. Different breeds have different cultures, but in Welsh springers the culture is to show pretty much every dog intended for use in breeding. English springers do have field line dogs who are generally cheaper (though not always health tested), but I would not recommend a hunting bred dog for an apartment.

If you do have any interest in Welsh, I can refer you to some breeders in the Indiana/Ohio area. There are also a lot of litters being born this spring in the NY/NJ/CT region. 

Beware dogs that are cheap because the parents haven't been health tested or proven in any way. It will not likely save you money in the long run. The purchase price of the dog is only the beginning,


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## CptJack

If you go the purebred puppy route, most dogs are going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 grand for almost any breed, unless you move into back yard breeder territory, and that isn't a good place to go because of lack of health testing. You may find someone retiring a show dog or a failed show prospect from less (much less) but if money is a major consideration I'd start looking rescues.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> If you go the purebred puppy route, most dogs are going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 grand for almost any breed, unless you move into back yard breeder territory, and that isn't a good place to go because of lack of health testing. You may find someone retiring a show dog or a failed show prospect from less (much less) but if money is a major consideration I'd start looking rescues.


IME, closer to $1500, but yeah. This.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> IME, closer to $1500, but yeah. This.


Yeah, I was mostly averaging across breeds I've investigated to be honest and I don't know Welsh prices at all. I do remember ESS prices being around 1800 in my area. Either way, it's up there and over a thousand dollars for a purebred puppy of almost any breed, from health tested parents. Don't go down the '350.00 puppy'. Just... don't go there. Check into rescue groups, breed rescues, private rehoming (NOT from a breeder), shelters, etc. You've got some options. My RT was a retired show dog and was 150.00. My Boston was free from a private rehome. The BC was an accidental litter by a good working breeder and was 25.00. She was only HALF health tested (mom's side), but she was raised well and vetted completely and the breeder didn't make a profit (and was shame faced).

Look around. You'll find something. You just probably need to compromise on either purebred or puppy, or get on a waiting list with a breed rescue.


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## elrohwen

For show bred ESS or WSS $1800 is not unreasonable. I haven't seen anything high than that except in breeds with small litters or difficult births, etc.

I have seen working and field breed dogs for around $1k or less, but I don't think a true working or field bred dog would be a good fit for this home.


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## Titan84

Haven't read all of the responses. But as someone who recently had an ACD, I would say keeping one in an apartment would most likely be pretty challenging but certainly not impossible. You are talking tons of energy, incredibly demanding at times. Mine was EXTREMELY protective and reactive. We worked on it and she did get better but I was never able to get it completely out of her. She could be very unpredictable. All in all, I do not think *my* ACD would've been a great fit in an apartment. 

That said, at the end of the day they are very intelligent and fun dogs. But in my experience they require a little bit more from you as an owner than a lot of other breeds. I know when someone has their heart set on a certain type/breed of dog it's very tough to talk them out of it. But I'd say just do your best to keep an open mind. Take the time to meet several dogs. And I definitely agree with the others who have said an adult dog will probably be a better fit for your situation and requirements. Yes it's true that most shelter dogs do not show their full personality right away. But puppies are a complete and total crapshoot. And they bring along a whole other set of issues in apartment living.


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## Crashher0

Oh wow ok I am just going to throw this out there for a heads up, this dog is not going to be a show dog in any form. It is going to be a spoiled family dog or exercise buddy and I cannot justify spending more than $1000 on a dog that is going to bring no financial return. If I were showing and bringing back winnings I would consider it an investment but I have never paid more than $300 with haggling for a dog. This being said all my dogs have been great that I have been in charge of with no serious health concerns. Granted all my dogs were from friends or family so I got an easy haggle but still $1800 for a dog with no use other than being a family companion is insane.


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## elrohwen

Crashher0 said:


> Oh wow ok I am just going to throw this out there for a heads up, this dog is not going to be a show dog in any form. It is going to be a spoiled family dog or exercise buddy and I cannot justify spending more than $1000 on a dog that is going to bring no financial return. If I were showing and bringing back winnings I would consider it an investment but I have never paid more than $300 with haggling for a dog. This being said all my dogs have been great that I have been in charge of with no serious health concerns. Granted all my dogs were from friends or family so I got an easy haggle but still $1800 for a dog with no use other than being a family companion is insane.



90%+ of dogs from breeders who show or work their dogs are spoiled pets  The vast majority of dogs from show breeders are not show quality, or they are but there are not enough show homes for them to go to.

Also, I do show my dog. The breeder talked me into it. To date we have won a couple mugs, a leash, and dog toy, and that was at one show where other Welshie people had donated prizes (at the others we only won $0.05 ribbons). Haha. Not exactly big winnings! I also spent $700+ on health testing before he was bred, and the owner of the female spent even more. Breeding is not cheap when done right. There are some really good threads around here about why breeders charge so much, and believe me, it's not to make a profit. Most of the time breeders are lucky to break even.

The people who breed Welshies show their dogs to prove that they are breeding a correct example of the breed that follows the standard and has a good temperament. They don't make any money showing, and it's not a fancy past time or anything. They're breeding to make great pets, and to breed a dog to carry on their own line.


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## ireth0

Yea I was gonna say. Nobody makes money from showing dogs. If anything it's a somewhat expensive hobby.


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## elrohwen

Also note that we're not saying "you must pay $2k for a dog". We're saying that most well bred dogs (meaning health tested, good temperament, and proven to be a good example of the breed either through show or working or sport or whatever) are going to cost that much money. Less than that and you are likely going to be supporting back yard breeders or puppy mills.

There are other options though. Go through a rescue, go through a shelter, go through a private rehome on Craigslist. Just don't give you hard earned money to shady people breeding puppies to make a couple hundred bucks with no thought put into it.


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## ireth0

Should add as well that it can depend on area. Here between $1000-1500 is a more common range, unless you're looking at a breed with birthing issues like an English or French bulldog.


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## luv mi pets

In the horse world there is a saying, "Do you know how to make a million breeding horses? You start out with two million!" The same can be said about dog breeding. You will not see too many millionaires taking up dog breeding to earn money. There just is not a whole lot to be made. It is really scary and mind boggling when you start keeping track of how much it costs to breed your dog.


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## cookieface

This thread was started by a very responsible breeder in which she describes the process and costs associated with breeding her bitch. It's extremely informative and enlightening for those outside the world of breeding.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Too many people have the misconception that you only go to a show breeder to buy a show dog. Show breeders have PET quality puppies in every litter. 

Think spending over $1,000 dollars on a well and RESPONSIBLY bred dog is insane? Well... I'd sure fork over more money for a reputable car, computer, phone etc brand. A dog is a living thing and is worth so much more. I'm not paying $400 dollars to the guy who bred his dogs for money because he could and then doesn't give a crap that half of them ended up in the shelter later to die. 

If you go to a good breeder, you are going to get screened. You are going to have to sign a spay/neuter and return to breeder contract. You are going to pay a whole lot of "extra" money. What you get in return is someone who put their entire being into those puppies between socialization and making sure they go to a responsible and forever home, someone you can always ask questions/get support from and someone who is absolutely willing to take back that puppy if for any reason you cannot keep it. You won't even be able to directly pick your puppy.. they pick the one that best matches you. If you can't deal with that.. please consider adopting instead.


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## Effisia

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Too many people have the misconception that you only go to a show breeder to buy a show dog. Show breeders have PET quality puppies in every litter.
> 
> Think spending over $1,000 dollars on a well and RESPONSIBLY bred dog is insane? Well... I'd sure fork over more money for a reputable car, computer, phone etc brand. A dog is a living thing and is worth so much more. I'm not paying $400 dollars to the guy who bred his dogs for money because he could and then doesn't give a crap that half of them ended up in the shelter later to die.
> 
> If you go to a good breeder, you are going to get screened. You are going to have to sign a spay/neuter and return to breeder contract. You are going to pay a whole lot of "extra" money. What you get in return is someone who put their entire being into those puppies between socialization and making sure they go to a responsible and forever home, someone you can always ask questions/get support from and someone who is absolutely willing to take back that puppy if for any reason you cannot keep it. You won't even be able to directly pick your puppy.. they pick the one that best matches you. If you can't deal with that.. please consider adopting instead.


Yes. So much this.

Honestly, we paid a lot for Annabel. We're paying even more for our NextDog. You would probably think we're insane. However, I feel that the things that come with going to a good reputable breeder are absolutely worth every penny. We're able to talk to Annabel's breeder about anything that crops up. Heck, she even has a Facebook group just for people who have gotten dogs from her. It's an amazing resource! The health testing really gives me peace of mind, but that costs the breeder money, which is reflected in the price of the pups. Breeding (if done right) is not a big cash cow for the breeder. All of the reputable breeders I've spoken with have cited "love of the breed" as their reason for breeding - money/income has NOTHING to do with it.


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## Laurelin

Eh. I wouldn't go through a show breeder again most likely except for rarer breeds where that is the only real option. Don't like what I've seen there and don't buy the mantra at all anymore that showing is doing dogs any good whatsoever. I actually believe conformation showing is detrimental most the time if we want to go there... My $1600 dog from good show lines is the one with all the health issues. It's all a crapshoot. 

That said my next dog will probably be a pretty penny from a sport breeder who health tests.

There are breeders that health test and have contracts and such that make a killing on dogs most definitely. Good or bad? Not my thing but plenty of 'serious dog people' go to these people and no one bats an eye. I'd prefer people go to your average 'BYB' if I'm honest.

For a good deal you can't beat shelter prices. 8-10 month Hank was already up to date on shots, neutered, and only $60.  We'll see how health goes but I doubt it could be worse than Mia so...


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Laurelin said:


> Eh. I wouldn't go through a show breeder again most likely except for rarer breeds where that is the only real option. Don't like what I've seen there and don't buy the mantra at all anymore that showing is doing dogs any good whatsoever. I actually believe conformation showing is detrimental most the time if we want to go there... My $1600 dog from good show lines is the one with all the health issues. It's all a crapshoot.
> 
> That said my next dog will probably be a pretty penny from a sport breeder who health tests.
> 
> There are breeders that health test and have contracts and such that make a killing on dogs most definitely. Good or bad? Not my thing but plenty of 'serious dog people' go to these people and no one bats an eye. I'd prefer people go to your average 'BYB' if I'm honest.
> 
> For a good deal you can't beat shelter prices. 8-10 month Hank was already up to date on shots, neutered, and only $60.  We'll see how health goes but I doubt it could be worse than Mia so...


I know you had a bad experience but the average byb to the average person is just not good. I don't mind that much if people want to go to half decent BYB that has the parents and carefully places the puppies. Now.. the Doodle breeder that keeps them all in the backyard and quit his day job because he's making a huge profit now? That's where so many people are lined up to go. It's NOT okay. So I'm going to point them to a breeder that health tests and does contracts to keep dogs out of shelters at the very least. 

Also.. show breeder is not the same as breeder that shows. Some breeds you might only get breeders who show. In my breed I prefer breeders who do multiple things with their dogs. Don't overlook a breeder because they show.


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## Laurelin

It is not just my experience with Mia. It is more my experience from Harry, Hiro, and Mia and all that entailed plus friends' dogs issues plus showing Beau plus some things I've seen and learned here and there plus just some thoughtful reflection. I have not seen much difference between average pet dogs and show bred dogs other than show bred dogs are usually a lot typey-er and often prettier. But better health or temperament? Not really.

I know I'm a dog hippy these days.  

I just see a lot of posts about 'go to a show breeder because then you'll get a healthy dog from a breeder that cares'. It's a lot more complex than that. 

I know a lot of show people. Most are great people. But the fact of the matter for me is that someone whose main goal in a breeding program is their next show specimen is going to have incredibly different priorities about dogs than I am. I also feel like a lot of the reason show bred dogs are so expensive comparatively is to recoup some of the money from showing. Which is fine but since showing has no value to me at all it doesn't make much sense to me to pay a lot more for it. 

But I'm getting off topic here.


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## CptJack

I actually really agree with Laurelin. I mean I would absolutely buy from a show breeder if they had a dog I wanted - just like I would buy from a working breeder, someone breeding mixes, would go to a shelter, or adopt from Craigslist. 

But my experience with both, overall (and MANY dogs), is that long term health and temperament in a young puppy tends to be about as much of a crapshoot no matter why they were bred or by whom. The best way to find what you want is to know what you want and to get it from wherever you happen to find it, barring it conflicting with your morality in how you spend money. 

Jack came from a reputable breeder. Bug came from a crappy BYB one. Jack is of a breed without major health issues. Bug is a Boston Terrier. Jack was health tested HIMSELF. Bug has health issues and is deaf. Jack is probably going to die years before Bug, because eyes/elbows/hips/heart testing only tests for those things. Tracking lineage helps, but it's not fool proof and breeders are not transparent at all. There are no guarantees. 

The best you can do is know what you want and go to whoever is producing that, that doesn't involve giving your money to someone for something you find morally questionable. And if it's really important and you want no crap shoot, then your best bet is always going to be an older puppy or young adult. That might mean a shelter, a rescue, a private rehome, a sports or working breeder, or a show breeder. 

For me, going forward, that probably means mutts from private rehomes and working breeders (or you know 'backyard' breeders in some cases). I do not like what show breeders produce for most of the breeds I am likely to own. If I did, I would go to them because frankly they do make really good, pretty, pet dogs and if that's what I'd want it I wouldn't hesitate to pay for it. 

It's just not what I want. At all. You'd have to give ME a couple of grand to take a border collie from a show breeder.


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## elrohwen

I don't think that show breeders are necessarily the ideal breeders either. However, speaking specifically for Welsh which is how this came up, I can say I have never seen a reputable breeder who didn't show. In fact, I have only come across less than 5 breeders who don't show and none of them were breeding dogs I would want to own. With only 20-30 litters born per year it's a small pool and even the people who hunt their dogs also show. For other breeds and mixes there are different stories, but that's how it is in my breed. People aren't breeding fancy show dogs who win big prizes, they are breeding nice pets and keeping the nicest examples back to show and breed. Most people don't show beyond getting their championship which is not hard. But yes, it's still expensive to do the health tests and breed the litters.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

Nobody said they should go to a show breeder.. but they were interested in a breed where they could only find "show breeders". You don't just go to a "show breeder" if you want to show a dog. 

I wasn't really disagreeing with Laurelin at all. I don't think all show breeders are good. However, I see the worst of the worst backyard bred dogs every day of my life and will argue that they've seriously ruined some breeds as well. You need to choose very wisely and so I just don't find it wise to tell someone they should go to a BYB especially when they aren't educated about breeders in general. No matter what.. a good breeder is gonna cost a lot. Show, sport, working, whatever.


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## luv mi pets

I think breed for me determines the where to go get a dog. AND what are my plans for such dog. If it is a dog with known diseases-GSD=hip dysplasia, I will go to a reputable breeder to get a dog. I would want some tests done and the more generations that were health tested would be a plus. Location is another thing. If I live on a big ranch and needed a working dog. I would not go to a conformation breeder who does no more with the dog except to breed a dog for the ring. I would go to that BYB who has working dogs and buy one from their stock. If it was for conformation I would go to a breeder whose goals are that of the ring. Most of my dogs are rescues and I was not concerned about background.


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## missc89

I was definitely in the same boat as you @Crashher0 when it came to finding a breeder for my Aussie. I found that the costs of the dogs varied from 2K to about 600$, and that was just based on crossing the provincial borders (expensive breeders in Ontario, less expensive breeders in Quebec) and yes, Quebec is known for its notorious puppy mill programs (it has been outlawed in Ontario but not in Quebec yet, so SPCA's in Quebec and breeders who have the SPCA permit [as well as Petsmart] are working together to close puppy mills) but I found a breeder that is a hobby breeder, meaning she is breeding the dog for the love of the breed, and wants to see good quality dogs being bred and sold to good loving homes instead of just breeding for cash (puppy mills are, IMO, the ONLY way you can make a living from dogs, and it's a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE thing!) and she follows all of the breeding guidelines that are highlighted in the stickies on this website (I checked THAT before I put the deposit down)

I picked my breeder based on how she asses the dogs temperament to find it a suitable home, and on the testing she does for her adults, as well as the medical support she is giving the puppies (properly vaccinating them) and the last and most important thing for me was support from the breeder for the life of the dog. If you can find these four main things from your breeder, IMO the cost is well worth the dog you are going to be getting.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I don't think that show breeders are necessarily the ideal breeders either. However, speaking specifically for Welsh which is how this came up, I can say I have never seen a reputable breeder who didn't show. In fact, I have only come across less than 5 breeders who don't show and none of them were breeding dogs I would want to own. With only 20-30 litters born per year it's a small pool and even the people who hunt their dogs also show. For other breeds and mixes there are different stories, but that's how it is in my breed. People aren't breeding fancy show dogs who win big prizes, they are breeding nice pets and keeping the nicest examples back to show and breed. Most people don't show beyond getting their championship which is not hard. But yes, it's still expensive to do the health tests and breed the litters.


Yep, absolutely and there are breeds I like that I WOULD go to a show breeder for, should I decide to own one. Like I said, it just all depends on who is doing what I want. I'd get a Boston from a breeder who did health testing but was NOT breeding to current show winning standards, probably. I would get a BC or Aussie from someone who was using their dogs for useful work on a farm and was breeding for themselves OR who was winning NON-AKC herding trials. I would go to a sports breeder for a sheltie. I would go to a show breeder for an ESS or pap, in one case because I like what they produce and in the other because it's what is there. I'd probably go to a hunter for a Brit. Private rehomes are options for any of them, and THE go to option for me if I just wanted another nice dog.

It just varies, but whoever has what I want is where I'm going to go and that answer is all over the map.

I just hate the idea that show breeding is some guarantee of anything.

And also, No, Fortheloveofdogs, average working breeds in some dogs do not cost a lot. 200-300.00 vs. over a thousand. There's a huge price disparity BECAUSE showing is so expensive. And even amongst the wellbred show breeders a dog who is being retired from the breeding program or who didn't work for show can be anywhere from cheap to a couple of hundred dollars (or more, but cheap is an option). Well bred does NOT need to cost a ton. You just have to bend on age in those cases.


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## OwnedbyACDs

elrohwen said:


> Honestly, if those are your expectations, you are going to be disappointed in pretty much any dog. I know dogs with near perfect recall and they are still not that well behaved. Dogs are not robots. Those amazing great dogs are often born and not made. Putting those kinds of expectations on a puppy is going to be rough for you and the puppy.
> 
> Also, getting a puppy is more of a crap shoot for temperament than an older rescue in foster care. The dog I know with naturally perfect recall was adopted at 9 months old and had been a stray.


while that may be true about puppies, I kind of like the whole "lump of virgin clay" aspect to puppies. I can start from nothing, like the first cut into a fresh piece of construction paper ... I dont have to worry about cutting AROUND someone elses' cuts, first! But I agree, some dogs are just naturally good, Josefina is not, I can exercise her off leash, but as soon as I am not watching her, or cant watch her, on the leash goes, because if she thinks you are not listening, she will be gone for the tall timbers :/. Its still too early to tell, but from what I can see, Lincoln looks like he is going to be a naturally good off leash dog ... of course he remains on leash at all times, or at the least, dragging a leash behind him when he he not in a secured area. 

Bottom line is if you get a dog ... ANY dog, you are going to have to train it, its not just going to "come out of the box" all awesome.



Crashher0 said:


> Its funny you say that last night my girlfriend was looking up spaniels and she was hooked on a bunch of welsh springers and kept showing me pictures and asking me what I thought. Looking around and googling stuff in our area we havent found too many puppy options that weren't show dog litters. ($$$ :faint: $$$). We have set a budget and I am strict on staying close to it because of all the other amenities it will need that we will have to get too.
> 
> If anyone has contacts in indiana or west ohio.


Lincoln was in the $600-$1000 range ... but he is a REALLY nice puppy from health and genetically tested parents who are shown and campaigned and titled. His breeder put a lot of work into him, starting him on crate training and doing aptitude testing, as well as what is sometimes known as the "superdog program". Yes, some breeders charge that much to gouge their customers, but high price doesnt always mean an unfair one. I always go with my gut, if a breeder FEELS slimy, than they usually are. 



CptJack said:


> Yep, absolutely and there are breeds I like that I WOULD go to a show breeder for, should I decide to own one. Like I said, it just all depends on who is doing what I want. I'd get a Boston from a breeder who did health testing but was NOT breeding to current show winning standards, probably. I would get a BC or Aussie from someone who was using their dogs for useful work on a farm and was breeding for themselves OR who was winning NON-AKC herding trials. I would go to a sports breeder for a sheltie. I would go to a show breeder for an ESS or pap, in one case because I like what they produce and in the other because it's what is there. I'd probably go to a hunter for a Brit. Private rehomes are options for any of them, and THE go to option for me if I just wanted another nice dog.
> 
> It just varies, but whoever has what I want is where I'm going to go and that answer is all over the map.
> 
> I just hate the idea that show breeding is some guarantee of anything.
> 
> And also, No, Fortheloveofdogs, average working breeds in some dogs do not cost a lot. 200-300.00 vs. over a thousand. There's a huge price disparity BECAUSE showing is so expensive. And even amongst the wellbred show breeders a dog who is being retired from the breeding program or who didn't work for show can be anywhere from cheap to a couple of hundred dollars (or more, but cheap is an option). Well bred does NOT need to cost a ton. You just have to bend on age in those cases.


I would also like to add that not every dog from a "show dog" breeder is going to be show quality. The difference might be so minute that only the breeder can see it; like a nose that is the wrong color, too much white, not ENOUGH white, coat too light etc ... every "show dog" litter will have one MAYBE two (usually ... sometimes the breeder gets lucky and gets more) that are worthy of the show ring. that doesnt mean the rest are chopped liver, they are still raised with just as much love and time and attention as their "show worthy" littermates, the only difference would be the price. 

Also, as an owner of ACDs, I would advice against an ACD. Not because you live in an apartment, or because you arent active enough, in those aspects I think they would be a GOOD fit for you. I had Izze in an apartment, but I also had an outlet for her energy and drive, I had horses at a stables not too far away, she because my barn buddy and trail riding companion. 

It's your view on training that has me concerned that an ACD wouldnt be right for you, my ACD's puppyhoods were NOT easy, hands down Izze was probably the WORST most "ass hat" puppy I nave EVER had. A true fire eater. Josefina isnt (and I use present tense because she STILL isnt easy) easy either, she is a little wench sometimes and does things just because she can or wants to, sure she will stop when I say no, but she will always try to get away with something, esp if she thinks I am not looking. ACDs dont care what you say, they want to do what they want, and they dont care what YOU want ... the ONLY way to make them do what YOU want is to make them thinks its what THEY want ... or else forget it. Witholding something they want is also a great way to train ACDs, "you dont get what you want unless I get what I want first!" and sometimes that doesnt even work ha ha.

If you are curious, I would read up on the miniature australian shepherd, also known as the miniature american shepherd. I got my first one 3 months ago and we LOVE him, he is so DIFFERENT from my ACD, its like night and day. He is very velcro to me, listens pretty darn well (for a teenage puppy LOL LOL) and is pretty willing to do whatever I want him to, and is happy to and wants to please me. Josefina does because she knows pleasing me is the only way to get what she wants ... whatever that may be LOL.


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## Crashher0

Well just to update the thread we have been looking around, researching and searching for breeders. We found an aussie shepherd near us that just had pups last week, so they will be ready in early April. Been talking with the breeder and got contacts of 3 people who bought 4 dogs from their previous litter and it sounds like they know what they are doing. Got great reviews from the previous litters owners. Just to let some of you sit easy they are $600 pups and they are CKC registered. Breeder is doing first set of puppy shots and 3 rounds of dewormer before we are able to take them. They are also giving us a puppy starter kit, collar that fits and a toy they enjoy. I have gotten pictures of the sire and dam and they are both beautiful aussies. Also since I was in contact with 3 previous litter owners I received loads of pictures of their pups.


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## missc89

Crashher0 said:


> Well just to update the thread we have been looking around, researching and searching for breeders. We found an aussie shepherd near us that just had pups last week, so they will be ready in early April. Been talking with the breeder and got contacts of 3 people who bought 4 dogs from their previous litter and it sounds like they know what they are doing. Got great reviews from the previous litters owners. Just to let some of you sit easy they are $600 pups and they are CKC registered. Breeder is doing first set of puppy shots and 3 rounds of dewormer before we are able to take them. They are also giving us a puppy starter kit, collar that fits and a toy they enjoy. I have gotten pictures of the sire and dam and they are both beautiful aussies. Also since I was in contact with 3 previous litter owners I received loads of pictures of their pups.


_Please_ share the pictures (I would love to live vicariously through you until my pup is born too lol) and congratulations on getting an Aussie! Do you know which one you are getting from the litter? Is it male or female? Have you thought of a name for it yet?


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## luv mi pets

missc89 said:


> _Please_ share the pictures (I would love to live vicariously through you until my pup is born too lol) and congratulations on getting an Aussie! Do you know which one you are getting from the litter? Is it male or female? Have you thought of a name for it yet?


I agree congrats! I want to know color. What color do you like? Is that something you and your girlfriend agreed on? I just am not ready to add to my multiple dog house anytime soon. I just love looking at other people's pups.


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## cookieface

Congratulations! I'll add my voice to the chorus of "pictures please!"



Crashher0 said:


> Well just to update the thread we have been looking around, researching and searching for breeders. We found an aussie shepherd near us that just had pups last week, so they will be ready in early April. Been talking with the breeder and got contacts of 3 people who bought 4 dogs from their previous litter and it sounds like they know what they are doing. Got great reviews from the previous litters owners. Just to let some of you sit easy they are $600 pups and they are CKC registered. Breeder is doing first set of puppy shots and 3 rounds of dewormer before we are able to take them. They are also giving us a puppy starter kit, collar that fits and a toy they enjoy. I have gotten pictures of the sire and dam and they are both beautiful aussies. Also since I was in contact with 3 previous litter owners I received loads of pictures of their pups.


Did the parents have health testing as recommended by the Canadian National Australian Shepherd Association?


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## Crashher0

Well we were a little late to the pick party there were only 3 of 9 left, We really really really wanted a blue merle but they were all said for. There were 2 red bi colored and 1 black bi colored left. A male and female red and a female black. My girlfriend wasnt much of a fan for the reds as I was and thought black and white would look classy. We both agreed on a female so we went with the black and white female. After talking with all the previous litter buyers we feel like we are going to get a good pup. Everyone was extremely over the top happy with their pups and the whole process. 
Here is a pic, we put a hold payment on her Monday but verbally agreed the money will be there we just need to meet up.


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## missc89

Crashher0 said:


> Well we were a little late to the pick party there were only 3 of 9 left, We really really really wanted a blue merle but they were all said for. There were 2 red bi colored and 1 black bi colored left. A male and female red and a female black. My girlfriend wasnt much of a fan for the reds as I was and thought black and white would look classy. We both agreed on a female so we went with the black and white female. After talking with all the previous litter buyers we feel like we are going to get a good pup. Everyone was extremely over the top happy with their pups and the whole process.
> Here is a pic, we put a hold payment on her Monday but verbally agreed the money will be there we just need to meet up.
> View attachment 193738


I'm squeeing so hard people at work are wondering what I'm on, but I don't care. She looks so adorable! You may get people mistaking her for a Border Collie though.

Thank you SO much for sharing! I really hope you start a thread for your little girl and keep us updated throughout her life!


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## Crashher0

Their tails are being docked like aussies have so I am hoping that may be a little more of a give away that she isn't a border collie. however under that long fur who will know where the tail is at haha. That was my worry at first when we heard there were only bi reds and blacks left. I instantly thought shes gonna look just like a border collie and people will think so too. But I am fine with that I love border collies, I can guarantee there will be lots of pictures and videos of her as she grows up so I may have to start a thread of new tricks she learns and goofy quirks.


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## missc89

Crashher0 said:


> Their tails are being docked like aussies have so I am hoping that may be a little more of a give away that she isn't a border collie. however under that long fur who will know where the tail is at haha. That was my worry at first when we heard there were only bi reds and blacks left. I instantly thought shes gonna look just like a border collie and people will think so too. But I am fine with that I love border collies, I can guarantee there will be lots of pictures and videos of her as she grows up so I may have to start a thread of new tricks she learns and goofy quirks.


I wish you lived close by so that we could have our Aussies play together haha. Are you sure their tails are being docked or do they just have the naturally bobbed tail? The breeder I went with doesn't dock the tails if they are born with them. I'm not sure what people's thoughts are on tail-docking on this site, but I wouldn't do it unless it was for the health of the dog.

I have a friend who has a German Pointer and she just got his tail docked because he would hit it on everything and it started to bleed and she was afraid he could really injure himself.


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## Crashher0

I asked about the tail docking, I was hoping to catch them in time to suggest not docking our pups tail because I love a dogs tail and am a firm believer that you can tell what a dog is thinking or going to do by how they hold their tail. It always helps me keep tabs on Si when he is loose in a public area, but the breeder said the tails had to be docked within 3-5 days of birth so I was a little late. 

I have heard the arguments of tails being docked vs not, health reasons, breed reasons, certain naturally bobbed so its normal to dock if the breed is normally bobbed. I have heard it all and would rather not argue if its the right thing to do or not no one knows and its all opinions. I would rather this thread not derail too badly.

With that being said I'm not too mad though I had a husky/german shepherd mix that was run over by one of our farm trucks when she was 2 years old. She didn't get hurt (which was a blessing) other than her tail broke and she started chewing at it so we had to have a vet dock it. She was embarrassed with it at first and we missed her long beautiful tail but she got use to it and we did too. Really cute to see her little nub bounce back and forth. My girlfriend wasn't partial to docked or not she liked both so its not a big deal.


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## missc89

I like the butt-wiggle that comes with docked-tailed dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs

Crashher0 said:


> Well just to update the thread we have been looking around, researching and searching for breeders. We found an aussie shepherd near us that just had pups last week, so they will be ready in early April. Been talking with the breeder and got contacts of 3 people who bought 4 dogs from their previous litter and it sounds like they know what they are doing. Got great reviews from the previous litters owners. Just to let some of you sit easy they are $600 pups and they are CKC registered. Breeder is doing first set of puppy shots and 3 rounds of dewormer before we are able to take them. They are also giving us a puppy starter kit, collar that fits and a toy they enjoy. I have gotten pictures of the sire and dam and they are both beautiful aussies. Also since I was in contact with 3 previous litter owners I received loads of pictures of their pups.


Does the breeder have a website? I would like to see their dogs ... maybe I know them!


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## OwnedbyACDs

Crashher0 said:


> Their tails are being docked like aussies have so I am hoping that may be a little more of a give away that she isn't a border collie. however under that long fur who will know where the tail is at haha. That was my worry at first when we heard there were only bi reds and blacks left. I instantly thought shes gonna look just like a border collie and people will think so too. But I am fine with that I love border collies, I can guarantee there will be lots of pictures and videos of her as she grows up so I may have to start a thread of new tricks she learns and goofy quirks.


Good luck with that, Lincoln still gets mistaken for a BC LOL. I even get the whole "WHY did you dock that BC's tail!!!" Uh ... maybe because he is not a BC LOL 

Also yes a picture thread is a must!


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## luv mi pets

Very cute pup. I love the blaze. 

I have 3 dogs that have tails docked. I have never been asked about the dog's tail. A doberman, an Miniature American Shepherd, and a chihuahua. But I tell you the Aussies are the winner of the wiggle butt club. 


Welcome to the wiggle butt club.


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## OwnedbyACDs

Crashher0 said:


> I asked about the tail docking, I was hoping to catch them in time to suggest not docking our pups tail because I love a dogs tail and am a firm believer that you can tell what a dog is thinking or going to do by how they hold their tail. It always helps me keep tabs on Si when he is loose in a public area, but the breeder said the tails had to be docked within 3-5 days of birth so I was a little late.
> 
> I have heard the arguments of tails being docked vs not, health reasons, breed reasons, certain naturally bobbed so its normal to dock if the breed is normally bobbed. I have heard it all and would rather not argue if its the right thing to do or not no one knows and its all opinions. I would rather this thread not derail too badly.
> 
> With that being said I'm not too mad though I had a husky/german shepherd mix that was run over by one of our farm trucks when she was 2 years old. She didn't get hurt (which was a blessing) other than her tail broke and she started chewing at it so we had to have a vet dock it. She was embarrassed with it at first and we missed her long beautiful tail but she got use to it and we did too. Really cute to see her little nub bounce back and forth. My girlfriend wasn't partial to docked or not she liked both so its not a big deal.


I can tell Lincoln's moods without him having a tail and he has no problems communicating with other dogs.

Plus, you know ... butt wiggle!!!


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## elrohwen

I have only ever owned docked breeds so no argument there. I prefer tails and am very excited that my next Welsh will have a tail, but there aren't any health issues with a docked tail


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs

There are arguments made about movement and communication with docked tails.. but meh. My Aussie does awesome in agility and other dogs are more worried about her eye contact than her tail. Could she be more balanced with a tail? Maybe. She is still more balanced than many dogs with one. As far as health problems.. uhm never heard of a single possible one. You won't have to worry about stepping on it or hitting it into the door either. They are much more expressive than you'd think and Aussies as a breed as just very expressive. 

Congrats on the Aussie. They are a fun breed but can also be stubborn. Start with those off leash skills early but keep your expectations reasonable. People will still think you have a Border Collie. I have a black tri and I get Border Collie all the time.


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## OwnedbyACDs

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> There are arguments made about movement and communication with docked tails.. but meh. My Aussie does awesome in agility and other dogs are more worried about her eye contact than her tail. Could she be more balanced with a tail? Maybe. She is still more balanced than many dogs with one. As far as health problems.. uhm never heard of a single possible one. You won't have to worry about stepping on it or hitting it into the door either. They are much more expressive than you'd think and Aussies as a breed as just very expressive.
> 
> Congrats on the Aussie. They are a fun breed but can also be stubborn. Start with those off leash skills early but keep your expectations reasonable. People will still think you have a Border Collie. I have a black tri and I get Border Collie all the time.


Yep, I need to start playing the "if I had a dollar" game for every time someone calls Lincoln a BC LOL, its ok, Josefina has been called an aussie before!


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## Crashher0

These 7 weeks are going to take forever. we have been gathering needed things as the week has gone and its making us even more eager to get her.


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## OwnedbyACDs

Crashher0 said:


> These 7 weeks are going to take forever. we have been gathering needed things as the week has gone and its making us even more eager to get her.


you will go through a lot of feelings, excitement, nervousness, and the occasional "OMG what was I THINKING?!?!?! Am I ready?!?!?!" LOL


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## Crashher0

OwnedbyACDs said:


> you will go through a lot of feelings, excitement, nervousness, and the occasional "OMG what was I THINKING?!?!?! Am I ready?!?!?!" LOL


This, This, and more THIS. I think my girlfriend is more excited and I am more nervous.


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## sandgrubber

elrohwen said:


> Also note that we're not saying "you must pay $2k for a dog". We're saying that most well bred dogs (meaning health tested, good temperament, and proven to be a good example of the breed either through show or working or sport or whatever) are going to cost that much money. Less than that and you are likely going to be supporting back yard breeders or puppy mills.
> 
> There are other options though. Go through a rescue, go through a shelter, go through a private rehome on Craigslist. Just don't give you hard earned money to shady people breeding puppies to make a couple hundred bucks with no thought put into it.


This varies greatly with geography. Midwest and south are generally less expensive than NE and west coast. Sure, you can find expensive dogs anywhere if you're looking for hunting competition or herding competition backgrounds. Testing is more important for some breeds than others. You may have trouble finding a good ACD breeder who will sell to you knowing that you live in an apartment, though.


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## missc89

OwnedbyACDs said:


> you will go through a lot of feelings, excitement, nervousness, and the occasional "OMG what was I THINKING?!?!?! Am I ready?!?!?!" LOL


Yeah I've got about... oh three months of this to go through and I've already had the "OMG what was I THINKING!?" part lol. It didn't last very long though.

Chin up!! 7 weeks will go by so fast and then you'll have your puppy and you'll be so happy! Then next thing you know it'll be starting school, getting a drivers licence, going off to college...


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## OwnedbyACDs

Yeah, just know that cold feet is very normal. Even those of us who are experienced in dogs experience cold feet. Because each puppy is a new adventure, a new endeavor, no matter how experienced you are. the biggest adjustment I had to make is the going outside before bed, AND at 5 in the morning, because he still cant hold it and has teething diarrhea on top of that, and I would rather be safe than sorry. But all in all he really isnt that bad of a puppy ... it could be worse, that I know. He could be a self serving jerk like Josefina LOL.


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## missc89

I just did something very stupid... I looked at the picture of your (Crashher0) dog again, squeed, and my heart hurt a bit. -sigh- come on time go faster! ><

@OwnedbyACDs - Haha yeah I think it was the only time I got cold feet. I also thought I was going to be doing this whole dog thing 100% completely on my own, but even my roommates are like "soooo if you aren't home yet can we take the dog out to play with it and let it go to the bathroom??" and just finding this forum has been a tremendous help as well


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## OwnedbyACDs

missc89 said:


> I just did something very stupid... I looked at the picture of your (Crashher0) dog again, squeed, and my heart hurt a bit. -sigh- come on time go faster! ><
> 
> @OwnedbyACDs - Haha yeah I think it was the only time I got cold feet. I also thought I was going to be doing this whole dog thing 100% completely on my own, but even my roommates are like "soooo if you aren't home yet can we take the dog out to play with it and let it go to the bathroom??" and just finding this forum has been a tremendous help as well


I have a different view on that, personally, no one feeds, plays with, or takes my dogs out except ME. Esp when they are young. I know this is a kind of old school way of thinking, but I believe that me being the provider in which all things good, fun, and necessary for their sustainability of life. You dont have to do it that way, I just want to tip the odds in my favor that I will be my dogs fave person LOL


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## missc89

Haha I totally understand that, but I'm only going to be with my roommates for another 4 months MAX by the time I get my pup. Also, I would not be against someone letting my dog out to go pee!!

Also I guess I just always figured the dog bonds closest to the person who spends the most time with it. My parents first dog Kelsey was my dads dog, because he went to the training, did the feeding, poop scooping, etc... and Meeka is my moms dog, because she went to the training.


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## OwnedbyACDs

missc89 said:


> Haha I totally understand that, but I'm only going to be with my roommates for another 4 months MAX by the time I get my pup. Also, I would not be against someone letting my dog out to go pee!!
> 
> Also I guess I just always figured the dog bonds closest to the person who spends the most time with it. My parents first dog Kelsey was my dads dog, because he went to the training, did the feeding, poop scooping, etc... and Meeka is my moms dog, because she went to the training.


Yep it matters! you are exactly right ... in my opinion of course


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## InkedMarie

I'm late reading but congrats on the puppy!

I wanted to talk a little about price. This is JMO by the way. I only have pets. We dont breed, show, do sports etc but if I get a purebred puppy, I want the healthiest pup I can get. For me, that means that the parents have the requisite health testing done for their breed. That generally means a higher priced pup. My Boone is 9, he was $1200 from a responsible breeder who did the testing. Ginger is 4. Her breeders also did all the testing but she was only $700. The reason for the cheap price is that all four dogs in the litter were born with a mouth problem, meaning they can't be shown or bred. Ginger has an underbite. When conversing with the breeder, I even asked why they were so cheap because I know that, at least up here, reputable breeders get more for their pups.


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## Crashher0

Picture update time, Apparently she was born around Jan 23 some time because my count was off. We bring her home March 20th she will be 8 weeks that following Monday.


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## InkedMarie

I'm a little confused...the breeder doesn't know when they were born?


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## luv mi pets

So cute but man am I glad it will be you hearing whaling puppy cries and not me and the housebreaking, the teething, the training. The first day home away from mom and siblings seem to be the hardest for the lil guys. 

Love an adult dog that knows the difference between a day off of work and a work day. Pups just think everyday everyone should get up early. Enjoy.


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## Crashher0

NO no no, I guessed the date they were born according to when the listing was posted. I assumed they were listed the day or day after they were born, but in reality she posted the listing 2 weeks after they were born. I was a little too excited to ask the exact day they were born. I assumed and made an ass of myself. 

But yes I already have the crate next to my bed wrapped in a blanket to make it more den like but within arms reach so I can poke a finger in to quite her down. The down side is the sunday after we get her I have work training out of state for a week, Luckily my girlfriends mom cant wait to see the pup and spoil her so she is coming down the day I leave to watch over her. So she wont be in a crate at all until sleepy time for the first week she is in her new home.


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## OwnedbyACDs

luv mi pets said:


> So cute but man am I glad it will be you hearing whaling puppy cries and not me and the housebreaking, the teething, the training. The first day home away from mom and siblings seem to be the hardest for the lil guys.
> 
> Love an adult dog that knows the difference between a day off of work and a work day. Pups just think everyday everyone should get up early. Enjoy.


I was lucky in that aspect, I got a good, laid back puppy thats has a "whatev's" attitude toward life LOL


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## missc89

Crashher0 said:


> Picture update time, Apparently she was born around Jan 23 some time because my count was off. We bring her home March 20th she will be 8 weeks that following Monday.
> 
> View attachment 194698
> View attachment 194706
> View attachment 194714


She is so adorable! Have you guys picked out a name for her yet? (quick look through the thread I didn't see if you did or not)


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## OwnedbyACDs

Awww PUPPY!!! <3


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## Crashher0

Well I am a big fan of patriotism and America and sport red white and blue every chance I get, Fly a flag every day in our window. Anyone who knows me knows how much I love the USA so I wanted to call her "Freedom" thinking If some day we get 3 dogs we can name them Freedom Liberty and Justice. Then whisper "for all" after saying all their names as a fun little 'MURICA thing. So my girlfriend thought Freedom was too much of a boy name and wanted to call her Liberty as in Lady Liberty then Lib or Libby for short since my girlfriend doesn't participate as much in the loving of this great country. We started a twitter/instagram for her to update pictures for friends and family and anyone else as she grows and learns cool things and we take her different places. If you want to follow her I am sure my girlfriend would love that: @LadyLibertyAuss on both twitter and instagram.


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## OwnedbyACDs

Crashher0 said:


> Well I am a big fan of patriotism and America and sport red white and blue every chance I get, Fly a flag every day in our window. Anyone who knows me knows how much I love the USA so I wanted to call her "Freedom" thinking If some day we get 3 dogs we can name them Freedom Liberty and Justice. Then whisper "for all" after saying all their names as a fun little 'MURICA thing. So my girlfriend thought Freedom was too much of a boy name and wanted to call her Liberty as in Lady Liberty then Lib or Libby for short since my girlfriend doesn't participate as much in the loving of this great country. We started a twitter/instagram for her to update pictures for friends and family and anyone else as she grows and learns cool things and we take her different places. If you want to follow her I am sure my girlfriend would love that: @LadyLibertyAuss on both twitter and instagram.


Thats how Lincoln got his name, his litter wa born on sept 11th, so to honor the losses that day, the breeder named them all patriotic type names (the girls were liberty, Bell, Star, and Justice I think. The boys were Lincoln, Jefferson, Reagan, Washington, and Roosevelt.) I decided to keep his name because he just ... looked like a Lincoln to us, and the name fit him so well. Plus he already was answering to it LOL.


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## luv mi pets

Hahaha I have a Liberty, Libby for short. She got her name because she was born on the Fourth of July. Her brother from another mother, born the next day was named Independence, Indy for short. Mine are short little barrel chested Miniature horses! 


It will be fun to watch your lil Libby grow up


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## Crashher0

Well this is all good to know I figured people would look at me like I am crazy for naming my dog that, Glad luv mi pets and OwnedbyACDs understand haha.
I love the name Independence, Indy for short that's a good one. I feel like its more of a male name though, I may have to keep that one on the notes for the next dog!


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## missc89

I'm naming my dog after an anime character/cartoon character (depending on what gender/colour it is) so I really don't see how naming your dog after patriotism is any more crazy than the people who name their animals after video game characters/cartoon characters/anime characters (me!)


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## luv mi pets

I have a dog named Squirrel because she is nuts.


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## missc89

That's adorable though!


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## OwnedbyACDs

missc89 said:


> That's adorable though!


what about your puppy, where are the PICS!!!


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## missc89

OwnedbyACDs said:


> what about your puppy, where are the PICS!!!


Puppy is still being made/growing in moms tummy, so no pics yet. Basically as soon as Keechak's pups are born I have a feeling mine will be born around the same time, and as soon as my breeder sends me something, I'll let you know if its an Erza (red girl), a Juvia (blue/black girl), a Laxus (red boy) or a Sterling (blue/black boy)


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## OwnedbyACDs

missc89 said:


> Puppy is still being made/growing in moms tummy, so no pics yet. Basically as soon as Keechak's pups are born I have a feeling mine will be born around the same time, and as soon as my breeder sends me something, I'll let you know if its an Erza (red girl), a Juvia (blue/black girl), a Laxus (red boy) or a Sterling (blue/black boy)


OH sorry my bad LOL, I was under the assumption he/she was born already, sorry.


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## missc89

OwnedbyACDs said:


> OH sorry my bad LOL, I was under the assumption he/she was born already, sorry.


It's all good! I pretty much joined within the month that I put down the deposit for my dog and that was like... just on time to get in on the march litter.

Speaking of which - I just got an email confirming ONE out of the TWO dogs she bred IS pregnant! I should know about the other sometime next week!


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## Crashher0

More pictures, 19 days (18 wake ups) till we pick her up  getting allllll kinds of excited! The breeder was cleaning out their pen and we happened to get 7-8 inches of snow so she let them out to see how they did in the fresh snow. First time seeing/playing in it and as you can see it doesn't look like our little pup enjoys it too much haha.

"Hey Big dawgs what is this stuff? I don't like it, its cold" Breeder said the whole litter acted the same none of them really knew what to do.


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## OwnedbyACDs

I agree, here I dony have a yard either but I make it work with two high energy dogs ha ha.


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## Crashher0

Today was my start of waking up early to combat this a bit. I was an athlete from a young age all the way through college, however since college I have focused on work, rebuilding my car, and moving to another state. Now that that has all calmed down I decided I will start waking up an hour earlier than normal in preparation to take Liberty out in the morning, feed her, and play with her to wear her out a bit before we get ready for work. Since I desperately need to get back into shape once she is a bit older I am going to start taking her on runs/walks for that hour before work, then I will come home on my lunch hour let her out and play with her some more to wear her out a bit for the afternoon. Then she will only be in her cage 3-4 hours in the afternoon till my girlfriend gets home and can let her out. After I get home my girlfriend and I usually go on a walk/bike ride on one of the walking trails near us.

Luckily for us we live in a very young active area of a big city and they have tons of walking paths, the sidewalks are wider than normal paths and there are tons of neighborhoods to walk in. Plus within a quick drive there are plenty of parks to take her too and let her run. 
I am very protective of my living residence and do not at all like strangers anywhere near my apartment, car, what have it so a dog walker would have to be a friend or neighbor I trust.


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## OwnedbyACDs

Crashher0 said:


> Today was my start of waking up early to combat this a bit. I was an athlete from a young age all the way through college, however since college I have focused on work, rebuilding my car, and moving to another state. Now that that has all calmed down I decided I will start waking up an hour earlier than normal in preparation to take Liberty out in the morning, feed her, and play with her to wear her out a bit before we get ready for work. Since I desperately need to get back into shape once she is a bit older I am going to start taking her on runs/walks for that hour before work, then I will come home on my lunch hour let her out and play with her some more to wear her out a bit for the afternoon. Then she will only be in her cage 3-4 hours in the afternoon till my girlfriend gets home and can let her out. After I get home my girlfriend and I usually go on a walk/bike ride on one of the walking trails near us.
> 
> Luckily for us we live in a very young active area of a big city and they have tons of walking paths, the sidewalks are wider than normal paths and there are tons of neighborhoods to walk in. Plus within a quick drive there are plenty of parks to take her too and let her run.
> I am very protective of my living residence and do not at all like strangers anywhere near my apartment, car, what have it so a dog walker would have to be a friend or neighbor I trust.


thats a nice concept, and it is a good idea, but you might find that the puppy will ultimately decide the schedule LOL, thats what I had to deal with, and it changes, based on what he has had to eat, hoe much he drank etc ...


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## Crashher0

Yeah that plan is for when she gets bigger, get her on some type of schedule that we can at least make work... until then we are just kinda doing what she wants when she wants.


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## OwnedbyACDs

Crashher0 said:


> Yeah that plan is for when she gets bigger, get her on some type of schedule that we can at least make work... until then we are just kinda doing what she wants when she wants.


thats a good plan, same with training, dont really worry about stuff too early (sans house training, and things like come, leave it, drop it, and walking on lead) I myself try not to do things too formally, I think thats where I went wrong with Josefina, I didnt just let her be a puppy. With Lincoln I am taking a lot more different approach and its been a lot better this time around.


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## Crashher0

OwnedbyACDs said:


> thats a good plan, same with training, dont really worry about stuff too early (sans house training, and things like come, leave it, drop it, and walking on lead) I myself try not to do things too formally, I think thats where I went wrong with Josefina, I didnt just let her be a puppy. With Lincoln I am taking a lot more different approach and its been a lot better this time around.


Yeah I had some really good practice with Si (Speaking of which I will post pics of him being goofy) he was the first dog we have let inside so he gets a little more attention. But we let him be a pup but still taught him as times went, Potty training was a little easier cause he was pretty smart. He knew which door we always took him out of and we would make him bring objects to us that he wanted to play with or fetch. So we would associate sit and stay with events and he learned real quick but we didnt work him right away or try to teach him to do jobs right away. Slowly over time hes gotten it and hes kept his goofy as well as being a Highly intelligent dog.

He will fetch anything, Balance food on his head, and would die for his ball.


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## luv mi pets

I bet you are getting excited about FINALLY getting that very cute puppy in your house.


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## Crashher0

More than ever!!! I think everyone else is also, My girlfriends mom already bought her 5 toys and a portable water dish. I think she is more happy that we are getting a puppy than we are. They were thinking about getting a second dog for their lab to play with and I think Liberty will be the deciding factor of how bad they want another pup or just spoil ours. 
Picture Update, Sun bathing with her brother and enjoying a nice soft pillow. T-Minus 11 Days!!!


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## OwnedbyACDs

YAY! Cant wait til you "blast off"! Just be warned, she might not be able to have anything in her crate or the place she will be staying, Lincoln still cant have anything in his crate right now LOL because he will shred it. But he will be 6 months old march 11th and as far as I can tell, all of his permanent teeth are in, so his chewing might taper off in the coming months and then he will be able to have bedding LOL


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## Crashher0

Oh I am so excited! We are going to try an old towel in the bottom just in case she has an accident or wants something soft to lay on during the day. If that doesn't go well we may try a nylabone or something that she can chew on but not really shred till her chewing days are over. That is the biggest battle I am worried about is chewing, Since I have electronics and cables all around my desk she could get hold of.


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## elrohwen

Crashher0 said:


> Oh I am so excited! We are going to try an old towel in the bottom just in case she has an accident or wants something soft to lay on during the day. If that doesn't go well we may try a nylabone or something that she can chew on but not really shred till her chewing days are over. That is the biggest battle I am worried about is chewing, Since I have electronics and cables all around my desk she could get hold of.


It's pretty easy to block off electronics while puppies are small. I have rabbits who are much more of a cord chewing risk than dogs, so I'm pretty good at it now ;-) I use these module shelving units made of these wire grid pieces about 16"x16". You can easily build blockades around wires and electronics. You can also buy plastic tubing to go around the wires and provide protection.

Though IME, most dogs are not that interested in wires. Yes, puppies put everything in their mouths, but they tend to be attracted to things in the middle of their environment and not things hiding behind furniture. So unless you have wires out in the middle of the room and the puppy is left there alone, I don't think you'll have too much of a problem. 

I've also never had a puppy destroy anything while I was home supervising. They are just not that fast or sneaky about it if you keep them confined to the rooms you are in, and you are paying attention. Once your pup is older you'll have a better feel for how chewy she is and when you think she can be trusted out alone, and even then you can confine her to a room with less stuff to get into.


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## luv mi pets

11 days seems like sooooo long. It will be here before you know it, GF mom will probably invest in Grand Dog items  Bumper stickers, mugs t-shirts wall plagues


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## Crashher0

elrohwen: Yeah most are hidden behind things but I have a desk with open bottoms in the living room and I have quite the computer set up with wires all over the back of it. I started wire tying them together with bread bag wire and trying to tuck as much as I could in hopes that the black spaghetti wont attract her haha. I have had rabbits too and your right they are more prone to chew random things.

luv mi pets: yes her exact words "When can I come visit my grandpuppy??" Their lab is quite spoiled as it is and I can only imagine how they are going to act when they see Liberty, Especially since they have been wanting another dog for a while. 

Actually my girlfriend and I got stickers for our car that say "Haulin Auss" it was too funny to pass up.


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## SamBourne89

Had an Heeler for 6 years in a house with a medium sized yard and THAT felt like we were pushing it. Still had to take him off leash at the local reservation twice a week to blow off extra steam. Great dogs - smart, loyal, friendly, funny as heck. Just be ready to take a lot of LONG walks (or get a new sofa every three months...)


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## elrohwen

Crashher0 said:


> elrohwen: Yeah most are hidden behind things but I have a desk with open bottoms in the living room and I have quite the computer set up with wires all over the back of it. I started wire tying them together with bread bag wire and trying to tuck as much as I could in hopes that the black spaghetti wont attract her haha. I have had rabbits too and your right they are more prone to chew random things.


Sounds like you'll be fine then. Rabbit proofing has been much harder than puppy proofing (except that the dog can get on shelves and counters) so you'll already be a pro at it.


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## Beni8106

Crashher0 said:


> TL;DR Active couple wanting to get an Australian cattle dog but live in an apartment looking for suggestions.
> 
> Long version:
> My girlfriend and I have been looking at getting our first dog since we moved out of our parents houses and in together. We both have completed college and have been in the work force for around 1-3 years to give you a rough estimate of our ages. We recently moved in together and we have been together about 5 years, however we both agree there is something missing in our lives and that is a dog.
> 
> This wont be our first dog as we have both grown up with dogs in our families at all times. She grew up with labs and goldens, while I grew up with a slew of 2x goldens, 2x border collies, 1x german/husky mix, 2x labs and recently an ACD/collie mix.
> 
> We have been considering an Australian Cattle dog as our first dog together for a few reasons however we have one worry and that is we know ACDs are active little guys and we live in a 1 bedroom apartment (890ish square feet). Now trust me we have read everywhere people saying ACDs cant be apartment dogs they need a job 24/7 and we realize these dogs need lots of attention but alot of those people have never actually tried it just stating their opinion. My families ACD/collie pup is a fetch and bike ride machine and runs circles around our senior labs intelligence/trick wise. The intelligence is one of the main reasons we agreed we wanted an ACD along with its medium size. Here are our ideas and thoughts we would like to know if this would be ok to be done.
> 
> Since our apartment isn't too big we wanted something small-medium sized and I am not a fan of the small (barking cats) that are hard to train as cute as they may look but something like a lab or golden will be too big for our apartment with the cage being the biggest space eater.
> 
> I grew up on a farm and all the dogs I grew up with were trained pretty well by my dad, brother, and I to the point where we can take them places and not worry about them being off the leash. I will be training this ACD to do the same and learn plenty of tricks. I cant stand dogs that don't listen and I will expect highly of this dog, my girlfriend, and myself to make sure we all learn and teach correctly. My girlfriends dogs have been a mix of fetchers that wont leave you if you have their ball to dogs that are mamas boys and don't listen the best some times.
> 
> The dog will be crate trained and crated for at most 7 hours on certain days for the first couple years until it can be trusted to roam the living area. I work less than 15 min from the apartment so I will be going home on my lunch hour daily to let them out/potty/play. So max they would be crated 4 hours at a time.
> 
> We both love Fetch, Frisbee, games, and I enjoy roughhousing with dogs so the dog will get a daily walk and plenty of play time either at a dog park or behind the apartments playing fetch. We go on bike rides occasionally and especially when going camping with my family so they will get some jogging in. Of course there will be more bike rides when the weather is warmer.
> 
> Our current families dogs are pretty welcoming of new dogs and we plan to associate our pup with as many neighbors dogs and people as possible to keep it friendly. Currently we are one of the only people in our complex without a dog(s) so there will be lots of other dogs/people to mingle with. We also plan to take the dog everywhere we go when we visit family/camp/travel so the dog wont be kenneled unless its absolutely necessary.
> 
> We are hoping that raising a pup from a young age it will get use to the noises associated with living in an apartment so we can teach them commands like quiet early to keep them from barking while we are gone.
> 
> We have also considered a border collie since it is around the same size and intelligence, however we both would like an ACD way more. We are looking for input from people who have either done this or have suggestions that will help. Stories welcome.


Did you end up doing it? I'm in the same situation with a beautiful smart little ACD that I'm fostering and plan to foster fail. I've heard a lot of people be negative about the amount of training and activity needed, but thats one of my favorite things about dogs and so far this little girl. But I live in a small space as well (with many options for stimulation). Thanks also feel free to email me [email address deleted by moderator.]


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## DaySleepers

The original poster hasn't been active here in six years, so I'm closing this thread to further replies. If you want to start your own thread, our currently active members can share their cattle dog experience with you! And of course feel free to participate in any current discussions.


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## RonE

A note and a safety concern. Posting your email address on an Internet forum is NEVER a good idea. Spammers harvest these addresses and sell them. Dogforums has a private messaging service that is, well, private. 

Beni8106, I am editing out your email address for your protection.


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