# Variation within breeds



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

So, I wanted to show you what the variation in GSDs is, just in my house. What variants are in your breeds?

Not only is there huge variation within the GSD breed, but there are pretty large variations even within specific lines.

Strauss:









Wesson:









Loch:









Cara:


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

They are all so beautiful, but Loch is stunning *swoon*


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

And Loch is my least favorite aesthetically speaking LOL

It's always interesting to see what people's preferences are.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Loch looks like a coyote almost... In other words, too scrawny/lanky for a GSD imo  I think he's gorgeous regardless, but. I'd have to pick Strauss as my favorite.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I think I'm most drawn to Wesson's type, but of course I like all of your dogs! I don't like the funky looking super roach back GSD's at all. Not sure which lines those ones are.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

There's honestly not a ton of variation in my breed. It's enough that if you get a group of Welshies together you can generally tell who is related to who, and have some opinion on what type you prefer, but it's nothing like in some other breeds. There's no field/show split either. The population of the breed in general is so small that it's pretty homogeneous. 

It's funny to compare them to English springers. I find bench bred ESS all look identical to me. I can watch a class of 20 go around and if I'm not paying attention I forget which is which. Even their markings are very standardized. When you compare that to the European type of ESS, and then the American field type, there's actually a huge variation in the breed as a whole.

And to throw out my vote, I think Loch is beautiful. I also really like Cara, which I guess is about as opposite in type as you can get. For GSDs as a whole, I like the look of working line dogs better than the show line dogs.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I see Strauss's type most around here, though way extremer than him. He's actually not extreme at all. 

I like Loch best, no doubt about that.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Xeph said:


> And Loch is my least favorite aesthetically speaking LOL
> 
> It's always interesting to see what people's preferences are.


I think what draws me to him is his build. He seems lean and sinewy...like he could outrun and out-maneuver the wind.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Loch looks like a coyote almost... In other words, too scrawny/lanky for a GSD imo


He does. It drives me nuts, and I will admit that it will never stop bothering me. His sister is SO pretty, and I don't know what his deal is. He has a great temperament, and is a hard working dog. He's functional, but I really need more than functionality. He'll be my next service dog for sure, but he'll always be the dog I call ugly.

He looks like he's made of three different dogs. And of course, this is not his breeder's fault. She can't predict what they'll come out looking like beyond color  I'm very grateful to have him, regardless.



> He seems lean and sinewy...like he could outrun and out-maneuver the wind.


Like a sighthound. Blegh, LOL


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Cara looks really, really awesome. My favorite overall is probably Strauss but I don't know how biased I'm being. Either way that dog is looking incredible, especially for his age. 

I'm going to throw Trent into the GSD variety mix 



















From this morning. I actually like to think that he's been inspired by your dogs' stacking LOL


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I see Strauss's type most around here, though way extremer than him. He's actually not extreme at all.


Strauss is half German show lines, 1/4 working lines, 1/4 American show lines


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Loch has to my favorite. I just love Loch, & I adore Blackthorns dogs. I just love that "type" of GSD.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Trent is the kind of dog I'd love to throw into an American breeding if the right bitch could be found. I love him, and find him to be very close to ideal.

Strauss has my favorite structure as well, but, like you, I honestly do not know how much of that is my bias towards him, since I do love him so much. I recognize his faults, and will unabashedly share them with anybody who asks, but he is still my favorite.

This is where one has to acknowledge that it is *impossible* to completely avoid kennel blindness. Nobody can avoid it. It is just not possible, since we all have preferences. What you really need to do is try to *minimize* it.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Cara is my favorite. 

Show Aussies tend to be more coaty and heavier bones whilst worker Aussies tend to be less coaty and lighter boned. 

UKC Ch. Aussie from a breeder in Michigan:








AKC Ch. Aussie from a breeder in Michigan:









Typical Working Aussie look:









AKC Pepper:













Last summer. Full body shot. In the air. He is pretty coaty but is slimmer in build. He is also old which has lead to a coatier coat, I think. 

I don't think there is much difference between Ratties as of right now. 
Maybe Capt. Jack and I can compare dogs!
UKC Ch. Yadada name, aka Merlin:



















Head on, body shot, upside down full shot. Whatevs on the upside down one.


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

RabbleFox - here, and the larger version: http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3674/12779061493_b2f8987fd7_b.jpg













Xeph said:


> Trent is the kind of dog I'd love to throw into an American breeding if the right bitch could be found. I love him, and find him to be very close to ideal.


Woah, high praise for this boy!  That's so awesome coming from you, as someone who knows confo and is picky about type + structure.



Xeph said:


> Strauss has my favorite structure as well, but, like you, I honestly do not know how much of that is my bias towards him, since I do love him so much. I recognize his faults, and will unabashedly share them with anybody who asks, but he is still my favorite.
> 
> This is where one has to acknowledge that it is *impossible* to completely avoid kennel blindness. Nobody can avoid it. It is just not possible, since we all have preferences. What you really need to do is try to *minimize* it.


Yep, even from reading your critiques on Strauss and seeing some of what he could be faulted for, he's still my favorite. Structure from any standpoint and just overall impression makes me think "nice, nice dog".


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Equinox said:


> Yep, even from reading your critiques on Strauss and seeing some of what he could be faulted for, he's still my favorite. Structure from any standpoint and just overall impression makes me think "nice, nice dog".


I don't need show dog structure  I need harmony and balance. I found a STUNNING WGSL bitch for sale, and ZOMG I want her


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Yeeee! Thank you!!!! I post all my personal photos mobile so they are always small and sometimes end up kooky ways. 

Now someone post their Aussie or Rattie!

Add another GSD. This is an older gal from my daycare.


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## Swandog (Jun 28, 2013)

I like Strauss and it looks like he'd love our northern MI winter with that coat.

Trent's a good lookin' boy too.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I like Strauss and it looks like he'd love our northern MI winter with that coat.


He's originally a Wisconsin dog, and he does indeed love such weather.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

I like Cara.... I think most know the extreme differance in labs. 

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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

GSDs *swoon* 

I have a bias for Trent - I just love that dog. 

As far as the top pics, I think I have to say aesthetically speaking, I like Loch!

Yorkies don't have much variation within their breed as far as show dogs go, etc, but since they're such a BYB produced dog, you see LOTS of variations of them in that sense. Yorkies that are 20lbs, and then Yorkies that are 2lbs (standard is under 7lbs) and some that are floppy eared, prick eared, half and half, some are long, some are short and stocky. lol. It's quite ridiculous.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

And to add to the Aussies here are some extreme (but still technically correct for the standard) European Showline Aussies








This one is a bitch









and here is a dog


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## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

This will be an total off-topic,but I need to say it. Strauss is one interesting name.Strauss in Latvian means ostrich,so I believe he must be very strong dog!

You have very beautiful dogs!I love Cara,very beautiful,she looks so big and impressive.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Trent is definitely my ideal GSD! 

Kairi is still a lanky pup, so I can't really include her in the Aussie variety mix. She's a mix of show and working lines, so pretty moderate.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

Equinox said:


> Cara looks really, really awesome. My favorite overall is probably Strauss but I don't know how biased I'm being. Either way that dog is looking incredible, especially for his age.
> 
> I'm going to throw Trent into the GSD variety mix
> 
> ...


I love Trent,so much.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Pasarella said:


> This will be an total off-topic,but I need to say it. Strauss is one interesting name.Strauss in Latvian means ostrich,so I believe he must be very strong dog!
> 
> You have very beautiful dogs!I love Cara,very beautiful,she looks so big and impressive.


Bahahaha! I learned something new! Strauss is named after the composer (Richard, not Johann). He IS a very strong dog, though!

Cara is on the big side for a bitch...probably just under 24". Her daughter (Wesson, posted right under Strauss) is slightly oversized


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Varieties in the white Swiss shepherd is mostly coat differences. 

They go from smooth









all the way to Samoyed-like. (not a fan) 









Other that, there is a trend towards smaller, fragile looking dogs (with lots of coat, ugh) instead of sturdier dogs. 

A petite: 









Sturdy:









*note: the above dogs are all at stud.


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## K9companions (Nov 13, 2008)

I like Wesson's body style the most, but it could also be that I love bi-color and black shepherds a lot. Trent is also very gorgeous.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Keechak said:


> And to add to the Aussies here are some extreme (but still technically correct for the standard) European Showline Aussies
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They look so soft & fluffy! I want<3


As for GSDs, I love Cara & Wesson. Loch, he may be scrawny but he does have a pretty face.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I love trent lol, of the 4 in the OP, i find Cara the most attractive. I am actually not fond of Loch aesthetically lol, in general I prefer a racey dog but he looks...mis-matched...to me? as though someone took their fav parts from a few different dogs and popped them together if that makes sense? like his head alone is nice and his body is nice but together they look odd lol


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Avie said:


>


That's my fave looking of those posted.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

This is my Mom's GSD. It's impossible to manipulate her into a stack lmao They're so blurry



























Here's her sire:


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Ah, Willis...thought he looked familiar. IIRC, he died unexpectedly. His sire did the same.

Is her name Madeb's Juno (the dog posted)? If so, looking at her pedigree explains why I saw German in her.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> This is my Mom's GSD. It's impossible to manipulate her into a stack lmao They're so blurry
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just wanted to say I love your moms dog and those batman PJ's!

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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Ah, Willis...thought he looked familiar. IIRC, he died unexpectedly. His sire did the same.
> 
> Is her name Madeb's Juno (the dog posted)? If so, looking at her pedigree explains why I saw German in her.


Yes, she's Madeb's Juno. We were very concerned when we found out that her sire passed away. I didn't know that HIS sire passed early as well...

Momtolabs: That's me! haha Thanks!


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Her topline gave her breeding away (very obviously WGSL).

And yeah, Max wasn't that old when he died...8 years.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> Her topline gave her breeding away (very obviously WGSL).
> 
> And yeah, Max wasn't that old when he died...8 years.


I know why Willis passed but can you share why Max passed?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Someone rang?

There's not a ton of variation in RT right now, but there is some and it's noticeable to me.

Rabblefox's Merlin:









Frost (UKC, CH)


















Jack (also UKC CH, as well as UWP): Apparently I have no actual from the side/stacked pictures of him, at least not good ones. I'll get some later, but.




























Ultimately, I can see differences in type in all three of those dogs. It's not the same kind of split as in GSDs, but there's stuff there. Some of it's size (there is a split there). Some of it's bone/mass. Some of it's head. Some of it's topline, but that could just be stacking differences.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

To add to the GSD's this was my aunts GF's dog but they rehomed him for some personal reasons. Miss the dude! He was over at my house during a cook out, stole both those balls from my Siblings and popped them,haha! 

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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I honestly don't remember what Max died of. I can ask someone I know and PM you the answer.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> I honestly don't remember what Max died of. I can ask someone I know and PM you the answer.


If you don't mind, that would be nice. Thanks


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Xeph said:


> (Richard, not Johann)


I'm glad that I got to clear that up with you when I first met you guys - NOT a fan of the Johann


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Finkie_Mom said:


> I'm glad that I got to clear that up with you when I first met you guys - NOT a fan of the Johann


Neither am I. That's why he's named after the other one.

MUSICIANS UNITE!


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

Of all the GSDs pictured I like Cara and Trent the most as being the most balanced. But I am just a fan and certainly not any sort of GSD expert. 

I don't think there are a lot of variations in collies. Some have longer noses and some less so but that's about it.

Here are my two:

Toby, relatively short nose



Cameron, winner of the Extreme Nose Competition:



Please ignore Cameron's pricked ears. That's not a variation. That's a fault. But we love him anyway.



Now... shelties... some seem to look like small collies and others have somewhat of a different head structure, which is rounder and has a shorter snout. There is also a lot of size variation in shelties.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

You should check out european style collies. They look very chow-ish to me.

Shelties should have a different head type than collies but some do have collie heads. They also have a european type and an american type and look quite different.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

This is what I think of with euro collies:

http://www.collieholiday.com/

http://www.nyitramenti.hu/Puppies/X-traGold_Dreamdance/Eng/

I know nothing about the dogs.

Here's a couple euro shelties:

http://degalloshelties.com/
http://bramblecroftshelties.co.uk/Page3.html

Vs American

http://www.triumphshelties.com/
http://acadiashelties.blogspot.com/2012/09/new-grand-champion-acadia-pressence-of.html

Once again random dogs/breeders


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

Keechak said:


> And to add to the Aussies here are some extreme (but still technically correct for the standard) European Showline Aussies
> 
> 
> 
> ...


keechak those aussie's look crazy different than what i'm used to seeing. way stockier! and longer? 

going to an AKC show i could definitely see the difference between ammy's "working dog" coat and the show coats. all of those aussie's were so fluffy!


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Xeph said:


> And Loch is my least favorite aesthetically speaking LOL
> 
> It's always interesting to see what people's preferences are.


Wesson is my favorite. Stunning!!


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Kyndall54 said:


> keechak those aussie's look crazy different than what i'm used to seeing. way stockier! and longer?
> 
> going to an AKC show i could definitely see the difference between ammy's "working dog" coat and the show coats. all of those aussie's were so fluffy!


Ya I don't like the extreme euro Aussies at all. Way too heavy bodied and heavy coated to be a versatile stock dog IMO. But as "just a dog" they are adorable, but not my idea of good representatives of the breed.

For comparison here is my stock and showline cross Aussie (whose still got a lot of coat IMO) in a similar pose as the dog above. But surprisingly enough Hawkeye and the dog above are pretty closely related, which isn't uncommon as european aussies are often just a very few generations from their american imports, in fact I think the dog above is a direct descendant of american showline dogs but he still has more of the typical european FCI look and he has done well in FCI showing.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Someone rang?
> 
> There's not a ton of variation in RT right now, but there is some and it's noticeable to me.
> 
> ...


Merlin is on the small side for a standard. I think he is ~13.5" at the whithers and 15.5lbs as of last week. 

I think the angle of the photo and the stack does a lot to a dog. One can down play a fault or play up a certain part of their dog, especially in a photo. 

I need better stack photos of Merlin on a stable surface. Cpt. Jack, you definitely need to get a photo of Jack in a stack. I think from the pictures you've posted he has a lot more angle to his head than Merlin but it's hard to tell. More Pictures please! Mostly because I like seeing pictures of him!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Merlin is on the small side for a standard. I think he is ~13.5" at the whithers and 15.5lbs as of last week.
> 
> I think the angle of the photo and the stack does a lot to a dog. One can down play a fault or play up a certain part of their dog, especially in a photo.
> 
> I need better stack photos of Merlin on a stable surface. Cpt. Jack, you definitely need to get a photo of Jack in a stack. I think from the pictures you've posted he has a lot more angle to his head than Merlin but it's hard to tell. More Pictures please! Mostly because I like seeing pictures of him!



Yeah, size is definitely part of what's influencing me here - with Jack at least, who is at the top end, at 18" at the withers. Frost is only 15. 










That's the best profile face shot I think I have. Decent shot of his flawed to heck ears, too 

I may eventually, but to be honest Jack didn't love showing when he was doing it and was pulled a point from his GRCH because he hated it. If I can get one accidentally, I will, but it's not much fun for him to stack and I'm not interested enough to push it. So it'll be like... accidental from the side, and even that's not going to quite do it because of height. I'd have to have him on a table or get down on his level to show a really good shot of rear angles/topline. Basically, though, Frost is dead on level across the back (pictures are influencing that). Jack has the very slightest upward tilt at the rear. Neither slope down at all.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Hehehe he does have silly ears. Poor Jack. He is a cutie though! I find the accidental shots are usually the best, however. If I try to stack Mer right now, he goes slightly cow hocked because he is anticipating that I will ask him to sit next. Doh. When he stands naturally, his rear looks really nice. At least I think so? Lol. 

I'm new to the breed and confirmation so I'm still learning. The only fault I "know" Merlin has is that he has a level bite. No ideal but not a disqualifier. Other than that, I'm lost. Feel free to point out what you like, dislike, etc. I'm interested in learning more about Ratties and such. 

Merlin likes anything to do with treats so training has been a breeze thus far. He isn't particularly soft but does shut down if a new, scary item is introduced. It's very difficult to tell what will be scary. Other than that, he'll learn anything for food. His stack for me so far is still crap though!

I love seeing all these GSDs!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Hehehe he does have silly ears. Poor Jack. He is a cutie though! I find the accidental shots are usually the best, however. If I try to stack Mer right now, he goes slightly cow hocked because he is anticipating that I will ask him to sit next. Doh. When he stands naturally, his rear looks really nice. At least I think so? Lol.
> 
> I'm new to the breed and confirmation so I'm still learning. The only fault I "know" Merlin has is that he has a level bite. No ideal but not a disqualifier. Other than that, I'm lost. Feel free to point out what you like, dislike, etc. I'm interested in learning more about Ratties and such.
> 
> ...



Jack had a good 5 years with a compulsion trainer. It did him no favors.

And yeah. Those stupid tulip edged ears. XD


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## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

Wesson is easily my favorite of your GSDs. I'd like Loch a lot more if he was sturdier, I think. He's a little too racy for my tastes. I like a solid (but not cumbersome!) GSD.

There's not nearly as significant a split in Brittanys as there in in, say, GSDs or labs, but there are a few different body types. Some dogs (typically show dogs, I find) are very racy, and I don't care for that look at all.










I really like this dog, more solid while still being very athletic:


















Aesthetically speaking I find I often like dogs bred solely for the field. They remind me of Rowan - a bit bigger, more solid.


















I'm 99% sure Rowan isn't from show lines within at least a few generations, based on the paperwork I got with him (that I've since lost, ugh) and just physically speaking I think he's from field lines. Judging by his lack of bird instinct, he's removed even from those a bit. The parents had no titles and generic names ("(last name)'s Mad Max" was one I believe.) Although Rowan is definitely not correct, I do find that I'm biased toward traits that remind me of him, just in dogs that meet the standard better.


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## Melle (Aug 9, 2013)

I'll do the APBT  There's a lot of variation within the breed, especially depending on the function of the dog as well as within the bloodlines. When they were used as game/pit dogs, as I recall conformation wasn't as hugely important to the level it is in the show ring. Not many dogs were what could be considered show-worthy, however dogmen did breed for athletic build, a certain shape and length of muzzle (2/3 length of the skull, box-like, medium stop), etc.

Here's the ADBA-style APBT. The only kind of APBT I'll ever like (I adore them):


















And here's the UKC APBT. Now, as far as I know, UKC allows dual registration of APBT's and AmStaffs (correct me if I'm wrong?) and there has been some...paper hanging. So some "APBTs" may really be AmStaffs, and mostly they are just AmStaff-type. Some breeders have put some weight on their dogs before UKC shows as judges tend to prefer that type.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

OOps i posted a thread just like this right now and didn't even see yours i did a search but worded it wrong too, darn sorry about that


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Ain't no thang, Adj!



> He's a little too racy for my tastes. I like a solid (but not cumbersome!) GSD


Same. "Lay" people tend to love him, but he is not at all harmonious. He is a very functional dog, and yes, very agile, but he lacks breed type and has some faults that bother me (functionally and aesthetically). He is EXCELLENT for what I need him for, and should be able to work for a long time, but...he's really not correct for a GSD.

Cara and Strauss are the best balanced of my crew, but if you want a testament of balance with good and proper angles with strong breed type, one should constantly look to Grace's Trent.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Rottweilers,the lighter built males are more challenging to find in the breed and are most often seen in agility or protection sports. Most are bred for Conformation and a little Shutzhund. They can be pretty much anywhere from 75-140lb,around 100 is the most common.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Love the last dog. Not his head, but his body. Woof!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Ain't no thang, Adj!
> 
> 
> Same. "Lay" people tend to love him, but he is not at all harmonious. He is a very functional dog, and yes, very agile, but he lacks breed type and has some faults that bother me (functionally and aesthetically). He is EXCELLENT for what I need him for, and should be able to work for a long time, but...he's really not correct for a GSD.
> ...


I could tell he's racy and that Strauss was (one of) your best type wise even though I'm a lay person lol, someone at a dog show once commented that I have an eye for good dogs even though I don't know anything. I LOVE Trent, he's my favorite GSD... ever.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

SDRRanger said:


> That's my fave looking of those posted.


Mine too! The fourth a close second. Mike is of the first type, my previous dog Charlie was of the fourth type.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> You should check out european style collies. They look very chow-ish to me.
> 
> Shelties should have a different head type than collies but some do have collie heads. They also have a european type and an american type and look quite different.


You're right. I completely forgot about the European collies. They do look more like chows.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Ok, here are a few example of Welshies with slightly different types. All are random dogs I pulled from a Google image search, so I don't know who they are or what lines they are from.

This one has a different head than I usually see around. I can only think of one breeder in the US who produces dogs with heads sort of like this. It's technically within the standard, but it just doesn't say "Welsh springer" to me.









This one has a more typical head for what I see and like, though he's a little low on leg for my taste. I do notice dogs who look a little low and heavy for what I like, but it's harder to notice that in pictures than in person. He also seems a bit heavy in the shoulder and light in the rear.









I like this dog for the most part for structure and coat. It was hard to find a dog on Google who really fit my ideal, but this is pretty close:


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

There is alot of variation in cardigans, even within the same litter. Everything from color, to coat, to station, head, length of body and leg, tail set, temperament, drive... definitely not a cookie cutter breed. 

Really leggy dogs and really low dogs can come out of the same litter depending. I've seen some cardigans I thought could be border collie mixes, but were not. 

I prefer a pretty type head; I don't like the wide skulls and shorter muzzles I keep seeing. Bleh. To each his or her own, but to me that's just not typey at all. Cardigans are supposed to look rather foxy, not heavy or clunky. 


I don't like really heavy boned dogs, dogs with an extreme front, dogs with small ears or really low dogs. 

Most cardigans are what I would consider as medium drive dogs with an off switch, but some breeders actively breed out drive because they don't want to deal with it.

Temperament is really all over the place. I've met some really outgoing cardigans (mine) and some really reserved and standoffish cardigans. I've met some cardigans who hid under chairs the whole time at a show and slinked around the ring.

That's why finding a breeder that fits your needs as a buyer is so important. Being honest about what you are looking for is also necessary.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

TOC: Could you post some Cardi photos??? Who doesn't love corgis?

In interested in seeing the different variations!


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

Sure! I need to find some to pull together and I'll post them. I really love my old cardigan pictures. <3


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Paps vary a lot but it's so subjective, I guess? It's not like GSDs or border collies where there's distinct lines. People import and export all over the place and dogs finish in other countries pretty easy. Head type varies the most as does coat type and feathering length. Length of leg and amount of substance too. Some breeders like more stop, others like more muzzle, some are breeding for very chihuahua-like heads, some very spaniel -like heads. American dogs tend to be lankier and less typey/coated. British dogs can be stockier and less refined with more coat. Swedish/Finnish and Japanese all are the most typey with lots of coat and ears and pretty little heads. I definitely see the American lines incorporating the imports a lot and breeding towards that look. The specials are all pretty much that type.

Pet bred papillons vary like crazy- 3 to 25 lbs. Lots have very little coat and seen many with underbites and long almost sheltie-like faces. 

I once put together a bunch of champion papillon photos to show the variety. It's quite a lot. You can just look at Summer and Rose, who are sisters (american and british lines), and see how varied even siblings can be. Both of them are show quality looks-wise, but not specials quality.

ETA; And obviously there's variety in ear types in the breed. Though I guess that's without saying. Papillon- erect ears. The more common variety. Phalene- drop ears. The original breed type but not as common these days.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here are some random paps. I believe all champions.



















































































Most winning phalene in the US (at least a few years ago he was. Been out of the show scene a while)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Most winning papillon in US history: Westminster BIS winner Kirby


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

There's a lot of variation within frenchies...

Winnie, a puppy I will be showing. I really like her overall...










My boy Murph, who is a pet, but could have gotten his championship...he is a cobby little thing...










Bobby who won the breed at Westminster this year...I like him a lot










And Freda who is great...












European frenchies I find tend to have a bit longer of a body. Can be a bit more leggy. I see a lot of European frenchies that I like though.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

I love Trent, Wesson and Cara.

I think Wesson is just so beautiful though.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

TheOtherCorgi said:


> Sure! I need to find some to pull together and I'll post them. I really love my old cardigan pictures. <3


This is a boy I absolutely love


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

Here is a leggy cardi
















Here is a low cardi 









Here is a fluff









Here are a pair who are sisters









Here are some head shots. See how blocky the dog on the far right is? 











Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

I love Wesson, Trent and Cara. You guys really aren't helping my GSD obsession right now, lol. I want one NOW but probably won't be able to have one for a year.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm a dork. I completely forgot about Type-B Rat Terriers.










They are a thing that exists and are bred. I don't like 'em, but they're out there.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Ew. Type B Ratties. Lol.

All those corgis just reaffirm my wanttttt of them. Fluffy corgis too funny.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Ew. Type B Ratties. Lol.
> 
> All those corgis just reaffirm my wanttttt of them. Fluffy corgis too funny.


Ditto. I love Corgis. I do not like stumpy RT. RT without legs just look wrong to me.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Ditto. I love Corgis. I do not like stumpy RT. RT without legs just look wrong to me.


RT without legs is just... wrong looking?

I also disliked the EuroAussies. Gimme me an American dog any day!


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

There is a Decker Rat Terrier for rehoming on Craigslist right now. I want him for my SO, but, like, moving to a rental across country in a couple months... Wrong time for a new dog. Cry. I love the look of the deckers and the traditional rat terriers. Do not like that stumpy, eak!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> There is a Decker Rat Terrier for rehoming on Craigslist right now. I want him for my SO, but, like, moving to a rental across country in a couple months... Wrong time for a new dog. Cry. I love the look of the deckers and the traditional rat terriers. Do not like that stumpy, eak!


I. Would. *Kill* for a Decker. I can not have another dog at all, but OMFG. Like that is the One Dog I would skip the herder I want next for.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

There really isn't a lot of variation in weims, which I like. The dogs you see in the show ring can and do, very well in the field. There is an obvious variation though. 

Short Coated










Long Coated



















and there are varying lengths of coat on them.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

Conformation-bred Border Collies:





























Working-bred Border Collies:


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Although they have less variation than Cardigans,their is some although mostly directed towards color,coat length,leg and back length and slight differences in head shape.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

With rotties, there can be variations...there is a bit of a split between the conformation rottweilers and the working dogs. I do believe that there are breeders who are trying very hard to make sure that a Champion dog is well balanced between conformation and work now. There are more and more AKC CH's who have MACH's, IPO3, CT, UD/UDX's where before it was a very big deal to be a conformation champion and a working champion. 

This is a great trailer about a movie that is coming out about the rottweiler. Just in this clip alone, you can see the variation between rottweilers and the different jobs they can do.


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## VickytheRobot (May 24, 2012)

APBTs are all over the map. Here's a series of images of CHs from the three main registries (kinda messy since AKC only registers AmStaffs, UKC AmStaffs are regularly registered as APBTs, and to me the ADBA APBT (my favorite) looks like a completely different dog. Credit for the image compilation given to this thread: http://www.pitbull-chat.com/showthr...mparison-of-top-winning-UKC-AKC-and-ADBA-dogs


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## Melle (Aug 9, 2013)

I love the ADBA APBT's.

Kudos to those that have kept those dogs the way they are to this day. Just complete athletes.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I really like this dog.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Don't mean to jump back to GSD and my mom's dog but we got some better (Ha!) photos today.









Madame Blur-face


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Show bred husky










Seppala line



























Coat variant, they can be wooly which is not to AKC standard, and I read that they used to be culled up north because snow sticks and snowballs in their fur and if kennel outdoors they'd freeze to death. Not sure if any of that is true.

















I've seen some VERY tall, long-legged huskies too. Not sure where they come from.
70 lb husky at the shelter, very tall









Worth mentioning, there are also "Alaskan huskies" which are not a breed but a type, and not pure husky. No breed standard. Mix of huskies with greyhounds, GSPs, other northern breeds, with goal of endurance and speed.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Malamute compilation.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

CptJack said:


> I. Would. *Kill* for a Decker. I can not have another dog at all, but OMFG.  Like that is the One Dog I would skip the herder I want next for.


Aaand he's a cutie... 

http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/pet/4342718139.html

http://dayton.craigslist.org/pet/4342697953.html


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## Arya of House Stark (Jan 14, 2014)

Loving all the pictures of the GSDs! Loch is gorgeous--looking at him, I can see where Zoe gets some of her Shepherd coloring and markings. The huskies posted above are stunning too.

I don't think Bichon Frises have a lot of variety in the breed, but I'm not an expert on the breed so I can't say for sure.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Sibe said:


> Show bred husky
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Really loving those Seppala line huskies


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Aaand he's a cutie...
> 
> http://cincinnati.craigslist.org/pet/4342718139.html
> 
> http://dayton.craigslist.org/pet/4342697953.html


...Oh god. He's even a puppy.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I really like this dog.


I love him. Don't know who he is, but I'd steal him if I could.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Shep said:


> I love him. Don't know who he is, but I'd steal him if I could.


He is Rising Sun Farm's Blue Steel,"Frank". 

Lovely dogs. http://www.risingsunfarm.com/bc_dogs.html
His page: http://www.risingsunfarm.com/frank.html

I'm partial to this lady of theirs:








Import, Astra Bobbie.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Personally I'd avoid them. But don't want to start drama


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Personally I'd avoid them. But don't want to start drama


After reading that website? 

Not going NEAR them.

I still love that one particular dog, though  J Appearance wise, anyway.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> Personally I'd avoid them. But don't want to start drama


When isn't there border collie drama? Lol. 

Regardless of their reputation, they have pretty dogs and a good camera to take nice photos of them. XD


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Sorry to go off topic like this, but quick question; what exactly is so horrifyingly wrong with that website? I mean, yes, they're all 'our dogs are SO awesome, championship this, titles that, bla bla bla', but lots of breeder websites are like that. And they do health test.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Avie said:


> Sorry to go off topic like this, but quick question; what exactly is so horrifyingly wrong with that website? I mean, yes, they're all 'our dogs are SO awesome, championship this, titles that, bla bla bla', but lots of breeder websites are like that. And they do health test.


I don't think there's anything horrifying about it (to me). I would not, however, buy a puppy from them for anything.

For me, it's kinda simple: 

They're describing their own dogs as unsuitable for pets -and while I agree a job is important, I do not believe any border collie should be incapable of functioning in a household- and weird. 

Look, I like quirky, neurotic, high energy, dogs as much as the next person but when the breeder is describing that as a point of pride, I'm backing way the heck off. Add in price variation based on color (which I hate) and just no. All of this may be extremely common with BC breeders, but not something I want. Particularly not when contrasted against their (More balanced) description of Aussies, I just don't think these people have dogs I want.

(And this is just a very quick glance through of both sections)


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> He is Rising Sun Farm's Blue Steel,"Frank".
> 
> Lovely dogs. http://www.risingsunfarm.com/bc_dogs.html
> His page: http://www.risingsunfarm.com/frank.html
> ...


Thanks for the ID, RabbleFox!


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Bull Terrier show type









Bull Terrier working type


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

American Bull dog

Johnson









Scott
















There is also the "Hybrid" Type which is a cross between the two and looks vary depending on what the breeder is going for


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## VickytheRobot (May 24, 2012)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Bull Terrier show type
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow. I love the second one, but the first? Eh, maybe take a walk or two once in a while... 

ETA: I should say that I don't mean he's particularly fat, just that he appears so unconditioned. Is it just that particular photo?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Yes, border collies are always drama. lol

One of my favorites is Riggs: http://www.patrickshannahan.com/redtopriggsA.asp


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I don't know, I read their site as trying to steer away people who weren't ready for a BC - maybe it was hyperbole, but then I hear a lot of BC owners say the same sort of thing to novice owners interested in the breed. I went through a few pages and didn't see anything that would send me running far away. What am I missing? I don't really look at BC breeder sites so maybe that's why I didn't see any red flags.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I don't know, I read their site as trying to steer away people who weren't ready for a BC - maybe it was hyperbole, but then I hear a lot of BC owners say the same sort of thing to novice owners interested in the breed. I went through a few pages and didn't see anything that would send me running far away. What am I missing? I don't really look at BC breeder sites so maybe that's why I didn't see any red flags.


My problem? Check it out in comparison to the Aussies they're breeding.

The contrast between the two is what makes me leery.

I admit that NOTHING ticks me off more than 'My breed is a special and unique snowflake, unlike any other breed in any capacity, and no one but super special snowflake owners can POSSIBLY OWN ONE'. Somehow, that applies to an awful lot of dog breeds, who share an awful lot of traits. In this case, though, the description of their BCs compared to the description of their aussies (which is still warning, but not more balanced and sensible) just makes me nope out. (**ETA**: It's also very possible that I'm being influenced by my recent exposure to 'performance' border collies who are absolute wrecks temperament wise).


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I admit that NOTHING ticks me off more than 'My breed is a special and unique snowflake, unlike any other breed in any capacity, and no one but super special snowflake owners can POSSIBLY OWN ONE'. Somehow, that applies to an awful lot of dog breeds, who share an awful lot of traits. In this case, though, the description of their BCs compared to the description of their aussies (which is still warning, but balanced) just makes me nope out.


I do agree with you there - the special snowflake attitude bothers me too. That wouldn't necessarily turn me away from a breeder if I liked their dogs, unless that same attitude came across very strongly in person.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I do agree with you there - the special snowflake attitude bothers me too. That wouldn't necessarily turn me away from a breeder if I liked their dogs, unless that same attitude came across very strongly in person.


Oh, I don't care if I like the breeders attitudes or not, though I imagine they wouldn't much like me. 

The real thing is, the combination of how they're putting their dogs forward/describing them and that attitude leaves me with the impression that their dogs are... less quirky and more just plain neurotic? I wouldn't judge based JUST on that website, and would prefer to meet the dogs themselves since, well, website, but they're coming across very, very strangely to me.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

There is a Am. Bulldog breeder in Ontario who produces GORGEOUS dogs.

These are just a few examples but I believe most of her dogs are Johnson type


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks for explaining  And I get where you're coming from. I'm not into border collies and not into, well, lots of things described on the website (like the different prices for different colors).


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

On the rising sun BCs:

I could be remembering wrong but I was browsing some Border Collie forums and there was a giant thread that got nasty about that breeder and some shifty things (not honoring contract I think/deception)/neurotic dogs...(could just be mixing it up with a similarly named kennel though). I'd still be leery though just because of what CptJack has posted.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

http://www.humanesociety.org/news/p...ue_dogs_from_tennessee_puppy_mill_092509.html

Rising Sun has a nasty rep because it is closely linked with this guy and his pal Mary Ann Harrison.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

All German Shepradors look exactly alike. They are brown, have curly tails, black tips on tail and muzzle, eyebrows, and rings around the eyes. Any variations are simply GSD mixes or Lab mixes, not true, pedigreed German Shepradors.

Here is an excellent example, demonstrating math abilities:


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

This thread makes me want a GSD... But then I remember, I don't want any average old GSD I want Trent, or Cara or Wesson but mostly Trent.


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Wowwee. After reading up on Rising Sun BC's/Aussies I'm a bit saddened. Someone who looks "reputable" is pretty much a puppy mill? First of all, glad I didn't go the BC route because BC people are just ridiculous sometimes (after reading some on a BC forum). Second, I'm so thankful for my Aussie breeder, who really cares about her dogs. 

It's too bad. Those BC's are absolutely gorgeous.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

KodiBarracuda said:


> This thread makes me want a GSD... But then I remember, I don't want any average old GSD I want Trent, or Cara or Wesson but mostly Trent.


The time for Wesson babies draws nigh!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Wow, this thread is very cool. I can't contribute much though....since "my breed" (if you can call it that since Caeda isn't a papered purebred, and isn't standard size), has very minimal variation. Which I think is cool in a way, the only variations that I've seen (mostly on videos since I haven't met tons of GSMDs in person), seems to be mostly on the amount of "bulk" in their build (some are leaner and taller, others are stockier), and size, which is a little disconcerting because I'm not a fan of breeding dogs to be bigger just for the sake of being bigger (if there is a good point to make them bigger, function or job wise sure...but bigger for bigger's sake seems unhealthy). Overall though, the variation doesn't seem to be anywhere even vaguely as wide as some of the other breeds being mentioned. Is it just GSMDs that seem to have that little variation?
Cool discussion though! The only breed I've really noted the variations in is GSDs.....my preference is for the leaner working-line GSD, but that's just me


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Someone well versed in terriers, can I see some *good* pics of Jack Russel/Russel/Parson Russels? Yes different breeds, but are there variations within each breed? Some dogs I hear as Jack Russel but they don't look like any I've seen before. Some Jacks seem to be low and stocky, some tall and lanky.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

CptJack said:


> I don't think there's anything horrifying about it (to me). I would not, however, buy a puppy from them for anything.
> 
> For me, it's kinda simple:
> 
> ...


I'll admit my only experience with them is thru their Aussie, Trouble, who is an amazing little dog to watch at trials.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Bull Terrier show type
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why is the show dog obese? Ugh...


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## iilo (May 8, 2011)

that's rude.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

iilo said:


> that's rude.


Not really. It's a simple fact. The top dog, though pretty is over weight.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

RabbleFox said:


> Not really. It's a simple fact. The top dog, though pretty is over weight.


Reminds me of the labrador BOB this Westminster.  










Aren't these called 'bench type'? A random lab breeder I came across. Just... wow. 

I found a site that explains the different types in labradors. It does say that labs like above only 'look heavy' because of their coat, but I don't believe it for a second.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Avie said:


> It does say that labs like above only 'look heavy' because of their coat, but I don't believe it for a second.


Hahahahaha. Sure thing. I've laid my hands on English style show Labs that look like the Westminster BoB and I can tell you it's not their coat.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Afgan hound working type:

























Show bred


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Part of it is build though, not just fat. Bench labs are bred to be bulky and also to not have much tuck. Not saying that a lot AREN'T fat because they are but part of it is the shape they've bred for. (And not saying the shape is actually functional either).


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Part of it is build though, not just fat. Bench labs are bred to be bulky and also to not have much tuck. Not saying that a lot AREN'T fat because they are but part of it is the shape they've bred for. (And not saying the shape is actually functional either).


Don't get me wrong, I know that those types are meant to be bulky and thick but most of the dogs just end up being fat or obese. And their breeders/owners defending them by claiming they're SUPPOSED to look that way.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Don't get me wrong, I know that those types are meant to be bulky and thick but most of the dogs just end up being fat or obese. And their breeders/owners defending them by claiming they're SUPPOSED to look that way.


I can't speak for labs, but I can say that Jack's breeder outright said that judges in confirmation preferred the dogs who were slightly overweight to those that were ideal, and that it was a major problem with a lot of dogs - as in getting them to pack on the weight. 

Frankly, that says to me that something's a little broken in the system, somewhere.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it is breed dependent. Beau was in FANTASTIC shape when he showed. His handler conditioned him to perfection and I have never seen him in better shape in his life. I don't see fat paps in the ring at all though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I think it is breed dependent. Beau was in FANTASTIC shape when he showed. His handler conditioned him to perfection and I have never seen him in better shape in his life. I don't see fat paps in the ring at all though.


I have no doubt that it varies quite a bit by breed. I also wouldn't be surprised coated dogs do better conditioned/healthy weight than ones who have slick coats (aside from maybe sight hounds).


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I can't speak for labs, but I can say that Jack's breeder outright said that judges in confirmation preferred the dogs who were slightly overweight to those that were ideal, and that it was a major problem with a lot of dogs - as in getting them to pack on the weight.
> 
> Frankly, that says to me that something's a little broken in the system, somewhere.


That sort... boggles my mind. Especially when many shows are sponsored by Purina and Purina themselves did a study on how dogs kept in healthy, lean body conditions lived longer than their overweight counterparts.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Little Wise Owl said:


> That sort... boggles my mind. Especially when many shows are sponsored by Purina and Purina themselves did a study on how dogs kept in healthy, lean body conditions lived longer than their overweight counterparts.


Yep. I'm a little confused by it myself. Admittedly on most healthy weight RT you can see rib, and to a lot of people that speaks to being UNDERweight, but - man, you'd think people would be aware.


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## iilo (May 8, 2011)

bull terriers are supposed to be a substantial dog, I don't think it's fair to call Rufus OBESE based on a photo? overweight seems fair but when you can't get your hands on a dog you can't 100% tell what kind of weight they are at. just because he doesn't have a severe tuck...


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

Avie said:


> Reminds me of the labrador BOB this Westminster.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh Bentley would be considered "bench lab" while I'm not 100% sure he does have the looks. He has a thick coat and is "heavy boned" here is a pic of him from the other day. He is NOT where I want him right now. He can stand too loose some fat and get most muscle. I need to try and get better pics but it was 50 out and he just wanted to run and play,lol. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## SamiSaysRawr (May 26, 2012)

> Someone well versed in terriers, can I see some *good* pics of Jack Russel/Russel/Parson Russels? Yes different breeds, but are there variations within each breed? Some dogs I hear as Jack Russel but they don't look like any I've seen before. Some Jacks seem to be low and stocky, some tall and lanky.


Let me see what I can 'russell' up for you! 

Ouch, that was bad...

(I'm not a breeder so bear with me) 

Well both the shorter and taller dogs come in 4 colours (tan and white, black and white, tricolour, white) and 3 coat types (smooth, broken, rough). 

Comparison of FCI PRT and JRT- http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xMEmrS2IMfE/SjAcou7r65I/AAAAAAAAC_A/FOEPe0Qrk3c/s1600-h/bis.jpg



The taller ones are probably JRTCA type Jack Russells or PRTs, which only split very recently so a lot of the time they are very similar in type. Some PRTs can be a little shorter backed though, and the topline can be different too, since the JRTCA allows for a slightly arched loin and PRT standard only allows a level topline. JRTCA and UKC height is 10-15 inches. Preferred height for KC/AKC/FCI is 14 inches I think, in a 12-15 inch range.

JRTCA reg - http://www.hucklehillterriers.com/OurGirls.html
AKC - http://fallingbranch.com/kennel/indexkennel.shtml

There are some very light 'old style fox terrier' type dogs too - http://www.johnevans.org.uk/jackplough2.jpg

And coat type variation - 
smooth JRTCGB dog - http://jrtcgb.webs.com/jackrussell-Alfie.jpg
broken PRT - http://digaden.co.uk/Twister.html
rough PRTs - https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/t1/1379859_551989748202318_1798695193_n.jpg

colours - 
b/w prt - http://fallingbranch.com/kennel/bitches/maxie/Maxie_body_right.jpg
tri prt - https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/156082_500631293332769_1784424809_n.jpg
white prt - http://barksalotsterriers.com/images/spotStack2jpg.jpg



Shorter dogs are probably pet type 'shorty jacks' or FCI Jack Russell Terrier/AKC Russell Terrier. They came about from breeding the taller dogs with short legged terriers, corgis, dachsunds etc to create an easier dog to keep as mainly a pet and sometimes used for ratting etc. Height is 10 - 12 inches.

coat types - http://www.pikku-ukko.net/rotu/fur.jpg

'Australian' (not always directly, just decended from) type tends to be heavier, tan and white, and rough coated.
http://webs.dogs.net.au/baylockjackrussellterriers/uploads/images/CHUMCREEKSHANDY.jpg
Swedish - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5Cvi-CpOQ...3iTcEnA5H4s/s400/CH+Goldsand's+Columbus+1.jpg

Finnish dog - http://rapunzellinsnowstorm.kotisivukone.com/23

And 'English' type dogs tend to be lighter, longer in leg and more varied in colour and coat type.
http://www.cumbreckjackrussells.com/Joy.html
http://www.cumbreckjackrussells.com/Bruce.html
http://whitestarsjrt.webs.com/whitestarslittlelotty.htm

American 'shorty jack' type - 
http://www.dogbranchfarm.com/dbfrussellterriers/coachman.htm

If anyone can explain this better go ahead


----------



## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Adjecyca1 said:


> Afgan hound working type:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just an FYI in afghans the variations in their coat and patterning has little to do with show vs. working bred. Most of the heavily coated dogs are due to strict grooming routines and very clean exercise runs. Even within the same litter you can have a huge variation in the amount of coat, you can even have a smooth afghan from heavily coated parents. The coat also has nothing to do with working ability and on a good dog it has little effect on showing in conformation.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

animalcraker said:


> Just an FYI in afghans the variations in their coat and patterning has little to do with show vs. working bred. Most of the heavily coated dogs are due to strict grooming routines and very clean exercise runs. Even within the same litter you can have a huge variation in the amount of coat, you can even have a smooth afghan from heavily coated parents. The coat also has nothing to do with working ability and on a good dog it has little effect on showing in conformation.


IDK much about the breed, but all the hunting afghan hounds i saw had the shorter coat.. Can you show me a longer haired afghan who can hunt? I would think the heavy coat would get in the way? like i said idk much about the breed


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> all the hunting afghan hounds i saw had the shorter coat


They're going to if you aren't going to do everything possible to prevent hair breakage. The maintenance for coats like the Afghan's can be insane.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Xeph said:


> They're going to if you aren't going to do everything possible to prevent hair breakage. The maintenance for coats like the Afghan's can be insane.


Sucks that you have to put so much effort into it... It'd be nice if you could just brush it and instant beauty lol


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Sucks that you have to put so much effort into it.


I'm hoping to learn more about exhibiting Afghans this year. As someone who really enjoys dogs with a lot of coat, I don't think it'll bother me that mush. And brushing through all that long, pretty hair <3 <3 <3

But yeah...little about managing show dogs (and their coats) is easy.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

I'm sure that's not the case for many breeds, especially shorthaired ones? 

Then again, I've read once how much time you spend on grooming your GSDs and that surprised me as well. It's certainly a hell of a lot more than the coat care Mike gets. He gets brushed once every... 6 weeks, or so. Sees the groomer about 3 times a year. We wash him ourselves sometimes... usually when he's jumped into a mud pool. But to my understanding your GSDs have weekly coat care sessions, right?


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

well most of the newfies I know look like this 








with little variation other than coat colour, there are a few other things that can give variety. 

everything from how fluffy








vs









Manna has a pretty slick but dense coat the first Newfie I consider the extreme fluff Newfie.

I have noticed lately a difference in over all shape in my area 
tall and skinny vs short and blocky. I can't find good comparison pictures of these 2 variations, Manna falls under tall and skinny though while there's a newfie at the park that is about a head shorter but weighs about 10 lbs heavier (broader shoulders and hips, lower to the ground)

I've also seen small variations in nose and ear size lately
short nose









vs long nose









and short vs long ears (I got no good pictures)

then well...all the colours that have been popping up.



oh and show size (normal size 100-160 lbs, and over size 150+ lbs) but that's when you get into some shouting and physical violence.




EDIT:
I've noticed people prefer overweight newfies in shows as well.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

With papillons you have to take special care of the ear fringe to get the very long length you see on show dogs. No touching (oil from your hands can breka it off), it has to be washed a lot, no letting other dogs eat it, combing it out so it doesn't mat and need to be cut, etc. A lot is genetics because well... Rose has insane fringe for a non show dog but maintaining the show ears is a big deal. I remember seeing a dog at a show with only one fringed ear because another dog had chewed on her other ear.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

In poodles, there are differences in sizes (standard, miniature, and toy) and color (plus solid vs parti). There are some breeders who advertise "working" poodles, but, to my inexpert eye, they look more like curly-coated labs than poodles. I've never seen an overweight poodle in the show ring; some have more defined musculature, but I've not seen any with obvious (again, to my inexpert eye) flab.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> But to my understanding your GSDs have weekly coat care sessions, right?


Yup. Bathed, blown out, thoroughly brushed, oil treatment if needed. Various sprays to keep the coats healthy (along with a good diet).


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

American bully


Classic








Standard








Pocket









Extreme









XL










ETA: Found this


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I LOVE the Classic and Pocket AmBullies. The Pocket is friggin CUTE! And the Classic is....well, that is just a classic looking dog to me.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

>


I've seen this in a few photos of bully-type dogs but why the need for such heavy/massive chains?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

A dog that strong should not be on the flimsy tie outs sold in pet stores.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Xeph said:


> A dog that strong should not be on the flimsy tie outs sold in pet stores.


Understandable but a chain THAT BIG?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Might be just for show, but, better safe than sorry I think. The dog is well muscled (they all are), and the collar is wide to evenly distribute weight. Nothing about it seems "Wrong" to me.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Does seem a bit large for a dog that small,I used a pretty large chain at a time but eventually switched to something smaller because he calmed down a little.

That mini bull does look better than the ones I see clicking on google images,but has kind of a weird neck arch.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

On a Rotti it doesn't seem so big but on a Pocket Bully it just seems like overkill. Eh, just my two cents. I don't think it's wrong... just odd. lol


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

I know diddly squat about the American bully but aesthetically I like the classic, xl and pocket, in that order.

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Tainted (Jan 23, 2012)

Bullies! I'm late to the party, otherwise I would've contributed! Obviously, I'm partial to the Classic's myself . And I've always liked Kratos (the XL).


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

There are a ton of Classic looking ones out here in southern San Diego. Everywhere. Stuffing shelters to the brim. This guy was a stray that ran up to me while mushing, we named him Princess. Shelters/vets were closed and he had no collar, very nice boy (though obsessed with humping and drinking pee) so kept him for the night. Took him to shelter next day and owners found him.


















Look at dem beefy thighs


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Xeph said:


> He does. It drives me nuts, and I will admit that it will never stop bothering me. His sister is SO pretty, and I don't know what his deal is. He has a great temperament, and is a hard working dog. He's functional, but I really need more than functionality. He'll be my next service dog for sure, but he'll always be the dog I call ugly.
> 
> He looks like he's made of three different dogs. And of course, this is not his breeder's fault. She can't predict what they'll come out looking like beyond color  I'm very grateful to have him, regardless.
> 
> ...


There really isn't much variation in ACDs other then being blue and red lol, (just kidding) though there is blue / red mottled and blue / red speckled (it's too hard for me to post pics when on my phone and I won't be able to get on the laptop til tonight). Coat varies based mostly on region (dogs in colder regions have more coat, those in warmer ones less etc ...).

What attracted me to the ACD in the first place, is there is not much variation within the breed, either in temperament or type


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Adjecyca1 said:


> IDK much about the breed, but all the hunting afghan hounds i saw had the shorter coat.. Can you show me a longer haired afghan who can hunt? I would think the heavy coat would get in the way? like i said idk much about the breed


Where are you seeing anyone hunting with Afghans? With the first dog you posted if it was put on a strict grooming routine(weekly bathing, conditioning, oils, only running in clean areas without shrubs to brush up against) then it would grow a fair more coat than it currently has. And with the second dog if you let it run through the bushes and didn't condition the coat before brushing than it would be dripping in anywhere near the amount of coat that it has now. 

Either way as long as those dogs can move they would both be competitive in conformation. I can find you lots photos of coated afghans that are titled in lure coursing and conformation. But again the amount of hair has nothing to do with prey drive and willingness to chase/hunt. 

Honestly the grooming isn't as "insane" as most people make it out to be, you just have to use quality products and be very consistent. If you're lazy and skip a week of grooming you will notice it the next time you groom. 

And just for a bit of fun, below is a picture of Zardin. He's credited for being the first afghan brought out of Afghanistan and the dog on which all of the Afghan standards are based.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Hunting desert type Afghans look like slight hairer saluki's.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6SnW38LYyE

I really do like the old patterned type.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

animalcraker said:


> *Where are you seeing anyone hunting with Afghans? *


On websites and forums i found through google lol


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