# to flyball or not to flyball - how do you decide when a class is too much?



## my lil nut case (Oct 22, 2009)

How do you decide if a class is ‘too much’ for your dog? 

We took a beginner flyball class before Christmas and Bandit (almost 2 yr old aussie) loved it! However, as the weeks progressed and he got more excited about getting to do the activities, his behavior when he had to wait his turn got progressively worse. Barking/screaming/ lunging when the other dogs were doing the jumps (he was less distracted by the dogs learning to do box turns but they set him off too sometimes) or even just hearing the one instructor use the words: ready, set, go!

Now, this type of behavior is nothing new to him; he is and always has been very reactive (we are making progress with this but sometimes it is so painfully slooowww….). I have long thought he would like flyball but it seemed like a disaster waiting to happen for him. The only reason I decided to take the beginner class was because we took a control unleashed class with one of the flyball instructors so she was well aware of him problems/ tendencies (and she was very impressed with how far he had come). The first couple classes he did so good – he had a couple little reactive episodes but recovered quickly and was able to focus on us and what he was being taught… in fact he was so quiet overall that the instructors asked if I had drugged him! *lol*

After that though, things started going downhill. He spent more time in class barking and lunging and his ability to focus when it was his turn to work on one of the stations kept getting worse and when they started adding distractions (dogs moving in the next lane especially) he decided that instead of doing what he was supposed to do, he would much prefer to go after other dogs. :frusty:

So I guess my question is this: do I continue onto the intermediate flyball class and keep working on his focus within that highly charged class environment (my hope would be that the intermediate class is smaller and therefore less distracting than beginner) or is it better to avoid that class altogether until he can better handle the distractions? The instructors don’t seem to feel that his behavior is a problem and that he will get better with more exposure to the flyball environment but I am just worried that continuing will just encourage the behavior and set us back in what we have accomplished with his reactivity.

Sorry for the novel but I am interested in what others might do in this situation.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I have to tell you, my Mouse is a screamer...always has been. Flyball and agility. What concerns me more than anything isn't that your dog screams, but rather that he has trouble refocusing. Strauss screams and screams and screams until it's his turn, at which point I can let him loose and he will focus on me and what we're doing, even if another dog is working next to him. You may want to hang back in the beginners class just to work on returning focus to you.

Nine seconds of Shrieky McGee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs53r8Odg74

He even talks when he herds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snRygZGBja0


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## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I agree with Xeph. I'd head back to beginner's class and start training even outside of class for focusing on you. You have to train some things in a non-distracting environment then move to distracting environments.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I think there are also other important things to address.

With Strauss, his issue is a matter of drive and nerve. We worked very very hard to teach him not how to CAP his drive, but to channel it. He went over threshhold very very quickly, and his brain would explode. He was not interested in playing with other dogs, he just wanted to do it all BY HIMSELF! He didn't think he needed me.

The screaming is more a nerve issue. While overall he is a very strong dog in all aspects, the screaming has often been cited as a nerve issue (though definitely one of the lesser nerve troubles). He screams because he cannot think of any other way to express his desire and NEED to do something. 

For months, Strauss did very little agility, and our class times were spent not on stopping the screaming, but to get him more physically under control. To get him to WANT to engage with me. Tug was our savior on that one. That and running tunnels. When it was Strauss's turn to perform a sequence, he NEVER got to run through an entire one. Rather we worked on getting him to lay down and hold a stay. He could scream all he wanted, but he needed to hold a stay and return to me when I called him. If he held the stay, he'd get to do a jump/tunnel and then come play tug.

His frustrations ALL came out on that tug toy. While overall a vocal dog, he NEVER made noise while playing tug....I was able to gauge his level of frustration by the amount of growling and force he used while playing tug with me. If he only dug in his heels and let me whip him around, it was a pretty darn good day, and he wasn't feeling overwhelmed, but when he was incredibly growly and would try to thrash and pull me with him, it meant he was feeling highly frustrated, and so we would back up and take a small break. I learned to better read my dog that way.

He will still scream and scream and scream (and it's painful to hear, I won't lie), but he will hold a start line stay in agility, and he will do box work alongside another dog, and he will maintain his focus on the lesson at hand. But it takes a lot of time. And people will get annoyed. You just deal with it.


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## my lil nut case (Oct 22, 2009)

> He went over threshhold very very quickly, and his brain would explode. He was not interested in playing with other dogs, he just *wanted to do it all BY HIMSELF*! He didn't think he needed me.
> 
> He screams because he *cannot think of any other way to express his desire and NEED to do something*.


this sounds a lot like Bandit (especially the bold parts)... only when he gets over threshold like that he tends lash out - often with his mouth. We have made great progress with this - a year ago i would have left that class with at least a couple bruises on my legs whereas now he mostly just screams. However, in the last couple classes he seemed to have decided that scrapping with the other dogs in class was a good way to release his tension. :doh: His social skills need some work... but that is a whole other post.



> His frustrations ALL came out on that tug toy.


Bandit LOVES to tug... but not enough to do it while all that action is going on.... it is one thing we need to work harder on - and also maybe find an even better tug toy that would really get his attention (anyone know how i could turn one of these into a longer tug? It is his favorite toy and we tug with it at home but i don't want my hands anywhere near that close to his mouth after he comes flying over those jumps!). Then again maybe i just have to build his drive for one of the tugs we have. Either way, we definitely need to do more focus and impulse control work. I got Crate Games and Really Reliable Recall for Christmas so those are two more things we have started working on recently.



> While overall a vocal dog, he NEVER made noise while playing tug....I was able to gauge his level of frustration by the amount of growling and force he used while playing tug with me. If he only dug in his heels and let me whip him around, it was a pretty darn good day, and he wasn't feeling overwhelmed, but when he was incredibly growly and would try to thrash and pull me with him, it meant he was feeling highly frustrated, and so we would back up and take a small break. I learned to better read my dog that way.


That is really interesting... sometimes Bandit growls a lot when he tugs and other times he is pretty quiet. I'll have to start paying more attention to what is going on around us when he is quiet and when he is growly and see if anything like that is true for him.



> He will still scream and scream and scream (and it's painful to hear, I won't lie), but he will hold a start line stay in agility, and he will do box work alongside another dog, and he will maintain his focus on the lesson at hand. But it takes a lot of time. And people will get annoyed. You just deal with it.


It gives me hope to hear that other people have been able to make that sort of progress!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but here it is anyway...JMO:

What you describe here is exactly why I stay away from flyball. I tried it with Kit, and even though she was having a boatload of fun, we quit. If I allow her to get amped up, it's going to be on my terms, and it's going to be some activity that she actually has to put some thought into. With flyball, once the dog knows what to do, they do the exact same thing time after time. There's no thought to it whatsoever. Many dogs (like mine, and it sounds like yours too) will just spin out of control in that type of situation. At least in the flyball teams I've observed, that's almost encouraged.

Other sports (agility, disc, and many others) require the dog to work with the handler as a team. These are the sports that I prefer.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it depends on the type of personality you have but I've known several people that started having similar issues with flyball. I really want to try it, but Mia's already a screamer when she's excited and has little focus and is ball obsessed so I think she'd definitely be one of those who have issues with it.

If you want to do other sports, I'd suggest training them first too. I know a 

If it were my dog, I'd stop. Just my opinion. I might try it again after the dog has time to mature and gain focus, but I might not.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but here it is anyway...JMO:
> 
> What you describe here is exactly why I stay away from flyball. I tried it with Kit, and even though she was having a boatload of fun, we quit. If I allow her to get amped up, it's going to be on my terms, and it's going to be some activity that she actually has to put some thought into. With flyball, once the dog knows what to do, they do the exact same thing time after time. There's no thought to it whatsoever. Many dogs (like mine, and it sounds like yours too) will just spin out of control in that type of situation. At least in the flyball teams I've observed, that's almost encouraged.
> 
> Other sports (agility, disc, and many others) require the dog to work with the handler as a team. These are the sports that I prefer.


My thoughts exactly. Flyball seems to me (and I've seen it, but not a ton) a sport where wild, out of control, over the top dogs have an _advantage._ It's beneficial to get your dog into that state. Which I don't like for all the reasons GLM stated plus I think it puts the dogs at greater risk for injury.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

From what I've heard, flyball has pretty much the greatest risk of injury of any sport.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Well now I kinda don't wanna go to flyball practice tonight...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

No keep on! LOL

All that said, I still want to try it out. The only club here practices downtown at 9 am on sundays though so I can't go. I just have a feeling Mia might be a dog that would go too crazy for it.


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## 123fraggle (Feb 20, 2009)

> Flyball seems to me (and I've seen it, but not a ton) a sport where wild, out of control, over the top dogs have an advantage.


I couldn't disagree with this statement more. It can take up to 2 years to train a good flyball dog. Yes some of the dogs scream and yes unfortunately you may go to a tournament where a green dog has been put on a team too soon. Think about it though, a dog has to jump over 4 hurdles, usually passing into another dog, do a perfect swimmers turn on a flyball box (so as to cause no injuries to his body) catch a ball and return it, again usually passing into another dog. It takes a high drive, well focused and intelligent dog to learn this sport.

My take from the original poster is that the classes are being set up for her dog to fail. Our beginner dogs don't have another dog on the floor with them until they have a solid box, a solid recall over 4 hurdles and a solid retrieve off the box. Other dogs are introduced slowly. We usually have one of our calmest dogs in the same room just being held on leash while the new dog goes through some excersises. If they can handle this, we put up gating between the 2 lanes and do some recalls off the box. When they can handle this, passing is slowly introduced. Most dogs never make it and the handlers at times will use the excuse that the game is making their dog lose focus. So, it is either the training facility at fault, the handler and lastly the dog.

As far as flyball making a dog "out of control" my flyball dog is successful in agility (just started working towards her Master levels) disc dogs, and has her Rally Excellent from CARO.


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## my lil nut case (Oct 22, 2009)

I've often wondered why i don't see a lot of flyball talk on this forum and i am starting to see why! *lol*



GottaLuvMutts said:


> With flyball, once the dog knows what to do, they do the exact same thing time after time. There's no thought to it whatsoever. Many dogs (like mine, and it sounds like yours too) will just spin out of control in that type of situation. At least in the flyball teams I've observed, that's almost encouraged.


I can see a certain amount of truth to the above statement, but this:



123fraggle said:


> Think about it though, a dog has to jump over 4 hurdles, usually passing into another dog, do a perfect swimmers turn on a flyball box (so as to cause no injuries to his body) catch a ball and return it, again usually passing into another dog. It takes a high drive, well focused and intelligent dog to learn this sport.


is why i decided to try flyball in the first place - because if he can learn to focus on what he is doing while not just ignoring other dogs, but ignoring other dogs that are running near him, that would be good for him in so many other areas as well - and he would get to do 3 things he really loves while he is doing it (running, jumping and catching a ball... if that box spit out frisbees he'd be in heaven!). 

I'm not in a hurry to compete with him i just want to do stuff with him that he actually enjoys. We spent the summer and fall doing rally-o which he can be really good at (when he is focused on me - some days though you would swear he had never learned anything!) but he never seemed to really enjoy it or get much out of it (i haven't given up on it though). Agility is on my list of activities to try again (we took a puppy agility class the summer before last) but i think i will wait until summer when classes move back outdoors so that i can work with him near a class in session before we actually join one.



123fraggle said:


> My take from the original poster is that the classes are being set up for her dog to fail. Our beginner dogs don't have another dog on the floor with them until they have a solid box, a solid recall over 4 hurdles and a solid retrieve off the box. Other dogs are introduced slowly. We usually have one of our calmest dogs in the same room just being held on leash while the new dog goes through some excersises. If they can handle this, we put up gating between the 2 lanes and do some recalls off the box. When they can handle this, passing is slowly introduced. Most dogs never make it and the handlers at times will use the excuse that the game is making their dog lose focus. So, it is either the training facility at fault, the handler and lastly the dog.


I had emailed the instructor yesterday about my concerns and from her reply it sounds like this is how the intermediate class is going to be run, which i think would give Bandit a much higher chance of success than the way the beginner class was set up. In the beginner class, all the dogs were out at one time (on leash) and split into 3 groups (box work, jumps and 'learn to tug' with fencing between stations). At each station you waited your turn and then when everyone had gone the groups rotated stations. The problem (well one of them) was that the space is just barely big enough so there was no good place to go to separate Bandit from what was going on.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

RaeganW said:


> I think it puts the dogs at greater risk for injury.


Absolutely! Kit is surprisingly good at staying uninjured (or more likely, just grinning and bearing the pain), but the only time I've seen her get even minor injuries (an occasional bump or whatever) is when she's WAY over threshold. Having to actually THINK about what she's doing (as in agility or disc) will keep her under threshold, for the most part. Flyball? Not so much. 

My other beef with flyball (that doesn't have anything to do with going over threshold), is that I want to be more than a cheerleader. In flyball, the dog does everything while the handler eggs them on. But I want in on the fun too! I want to have to run or throw discs. I want our success to be partially dependent on me. I want to learn something. I want a challenge, like how to throw a "hammer" (disc move) or how to execute a front cross (agility move).


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I want our success to be partially dependent on me.


For a person with a dog like mine, I really feel that our success IS partially (heavily) dependent on me. It's taken a very long time for me to get to the point where I can put Mouse in a situation like this and feel he's actually controllable. To know I can let him go and he WILL do his JOB.

That's fine if you don't like it, but it really feels you're down on people who work hard at it with their dogs. Strauss is unlikely to ever compete in it, but Mirada might. We participate in sports that are available to us where we are, and Flyball definitely isn't easier than agility...just different.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Xeph said:


> For a person with a dog like mine, I really feel that our success IS partially (heavily) dependent on me. It's taken a very long time for me to get to the point where I can put Mouse in a situation like this and feel he's actually controllable. To know I can let him go and he WILL do his JOB.


Let me rephrase. I want our success IN THE COMPETITION ITSELF to be partially dependent on me. As in, I want to participate. Obviously it takes a lot of training to get a dog to be comfortable in any sort of sports venue. That kind of training, for the most part, occurs away from the competition. And of course the dog's success is partially dependent on how hard the handler is willing to work on training around distractions, etc.



Xeph said:


> Flyball definitely isn't easier than agility...just different.


This I disagree with. I would put competitive flyball somewhere near the difficulty level of competitive disc (distance/accuracy). Agility, IMO, is sort of a category by itself. I can't speak for other sports that I haven't tried.


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## 123fraggle (Feb 20, 2009)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but here it is anyway...JMO:
> 
> What you describe here is exactly why I stay away from flyball. I tried it with Kit, and even though she was having a boatload of fun, we quit. If I allow her to get amped up, it's going to be on my terms, and it's going to be some activity that she actually has to put some thought into. With flyball, once the dog knows what to do, they do the exact same thing time after time. There's no thought to it whatsoever. *Many dogs (like mine, and it sounds like yours too) will just spin out of control in that type of situation. At least in the flyball teams I've observed, that's almost encouraged.*
> 
> Other sports (agility, disc, and many others) require the dog to work with the handler as a team. These are the sports that I prefer.


I understand from this post that you are ready to critique a sport you have never actually trained a dog to do. You are correct in saying that the dog should only get amped up on your terms, that includes flyball. If your dog is "over the top" that is the handler/trainers fault, not the sport of flyball. I see alot of out of control dogs at a lot of sporting events including agility, disc dogs and even Rally events. Just because you see it doesn't mean that is the way it is *supposed* to be. Again, just a dog that is green, not fully trained. As for flyball teams encouraging their dogs to "spin out of control", that is just silly. Who in their right mind would create a situation on purpose in that kind of setting where a dog is definitey going to get hurt? What you are probably seeing is dogs getting reved up to run "fast", not "out of control" and remember these are seasoned dogs not the green ones.


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