# Only Good Dog Owners Beat Their Dogs! (rant)



## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

I am SO fed up right now!

My husband and I have committed to a positive training program with our akita mix. It has been going SO well, and as someone who used to use physical punishment on animals in the past, I can tell you that positive training is just the best. I have no intention of ever returning to brutally hitting my animals.

Well, it seems everyone else we know is a freaking dog expert, and all of them (including my parents) believe that if you don't "beat the hell out of your dog" (their words) when it misbehaves then it will never obey. Yes, my akita is headstrong and doesn't always listen but he's getting better. On the other hand, they have dogs that are CLEARLY afraid of them! I don't want that in my dog, and I don't want to use pain, fear, and intimidation with my animals! Besides, I hear Akitas can and will get brutal if they are beaten. 

At any rate, people who hear about our training judge us terribly. For example, I was asking my friends who beat their little jack Russel mix how they got the dog to stop shredding paper. They said they Just "beat the hell out of her" and after four times of "getting her @ss kicked" she stopped. Then they said "But you choose not to hit your dog, so good luck with THAT one!" At which point others chimed in "Why on Earth don't you hit your dog? Why did you get the breed you did? What is wrong with you?" etc, etc. I've even caught people IN MY OWN HOME thinking they were doing me a favor and SMACKING my dog when he wasn't listening to them! Of course, the poor thing ran off scared (he didn't know what was going on and why these people were attacking him) and started peeing everywhere in the house. 

My dad has cornered me and said explicitly "Your dog is just a spoiled rotten little brat. BEAT that thing until he listens!" 

I just can't do it! I can't beat my dog! He's sweet and listens just fine for a puppy his age (6 months) and I don't want him to cower around me! The WORST i can do is grab him and put him in a "submissive" on-his-back pose and hold him there only when he is in the process of doing something dangerous to stop him from getting hurt. I use that because it makes him stop dead in his tracks and since I put him on his back to scratch his belly or in play he is never fearful or upset by it and often things it's just to get his tummy scratched. I am SO SICK of all the judgement and I am SO SICK of people telling my I got a "bad dog" or that he's "spoiled" because he LOVES life and doesn't cower!!!! He is very obedient, I just come to people for advice on how to get him to stop shredding paper or not listening when he's distracted by other things like other dogs or animals he wants to chase when we are outside. He's just a BABY still for god's sake!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Sorry, but it sounds like the people you're hanging around are losers. Who the hell admits to beating animals, anyway?

A couple of nights ago I was at an outdoor party. Three dogs were in attendance (but mine was not one of them). I witnessed the owner of one dog administer an alpha roll to his dog. I muttered something like "no, don't do that!" under my breath, and the person I was sitting next to expressed surprise. She seemed to think that whatever punishment you wanted to dish out was fine, as long as you weren't beating the dog. I told her I disagreed because punishments that induce fear tend to wreck the dog-handler relationship. She disagreed and we left it at that because I could see we weren't going to see eye-to-eye on this. It explains a lot about her dog, though.

To be clear, I'm not totally against punishments. I administer negative punishments when appropriate, especially on a head-strong dog, but I draw the line at anything that could induce fear. I want a confident dog who behaves appropriately because she wants to, not because she fears the consequences if she doesn't.


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

I admit, with the friends they are trying at times and it's not just the dog thing with them . As for everyone else, it's family. A little harder to just ditch. *sigh* I don't let him near them unsupervised though. Last time I did that he was hiding under my desk and peeing everywhere for 3 days! I just hate how they think they are experts when it comes to dogs. To the point of telling us that "you should have got a different breed. If your dog is going to turn on people for beating it, it sounds like a bad breed." I admit, I do NOT believe in "bad breeds" just "bad handlers." *grr*

What kinds of punishments do you use? All I can really do for my dog is to leave the room when he's acting up or not listening. THe only time he doesn't listen is to "come" when I need him to come over to go in his crate at night. So I just give the command and when he doesn't listen I just go out into the garage without him and he starts freaking out.


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## MimiAzura (Jan 5, 2013)

I get this all the time, from my dad especially. 

I wouldn't EVER hit either of my dogs. 

Stella is still scared of life and would probably just die :/

Taj is the one everyone calls a brat.. i think he is good. but apparently no one else does.. 
the worst thing he does is, sometimes he hassles the kids when they are eating and when we first get somewhere or someone comes over he runs up to them to say hello.. 
its SO terrible! I'm so sorry he loves you


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

Yeah, my dad called Thorin a "brat" because he was biting the jowls of his dog when they were playing. Thorin wanted to play but his did not. So I saw him smack my dog upside the head. He ran straight for me and cowered. Then he got food possessive later so I grabben him and put him in his crate for a "time out". He was howling, so my dad was yelling at him in the crate and hitting the crate. Yeah. NOT a good experience!


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

Wow, if my parents or ANYONE treated my dog like that.......especially what was just said about the crate....Id be standing up and saying something FAST. 

Your poor dog must be going through hell. ummmm...why do you let them do that if he is your dog? I am genuinely curious as to why they are allowed to do this to someone elses (yours) pet?


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

No they dont and tell them that we said that!


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

They aren't. This happened on the last visit for the first time and my dog isn't going back to their house. I would have said something to my dad to his face more aggressively than I did but our relationship is very...strained. I am trying to peacemake because...well, it's a long story.We only see them once every few months so keeping them apart isn't too hard. Basically, I can't verbally say anything to them about this situation without ruining years of hard work on our relationship but I can manipulate the situation to keep them apart. I just get so irritated that people think it's okay to hit dogs, you know? Or that somehow I am a terrible person because I DON'T do it!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Ugh, yeah. Mostly it's "well, the secret to having a well-behaved dog is to be willing to beat the crap out of them _every single time_ they misbehave. Most people are too sissy for that though. . .". It's sad but that's what people think of dog training. Just read the dog training forum---any time someone says "I wouldn't tolerate that behavior", the new poster says "but I'm not willing to beat my dog. . .".


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Ugh, yeah. Mostly it's "well, the secret to having a well-behaved dog is to be willing to beat the crap out of them _every single time_ they misbehave. Most people are too sissy for that though. . .". It's sad but that's what people think of dog training. Just read the dog training forum---any time someone says "I wouldn't tolerate that behavior", the new poster says "but I'm not willing to beat my dog. . .".


That's really true. I never really thought of that before. I mean, for me when he's doing something that's totally unacceptable and distracting him from the behavior and rewarding for the redirection doesn't do it (like food possessiveness) my instinct is to with put him outside without anyone else around or put him in his crate. He HATES to be "shunned" and it usually stops problem behaviors quick fast and in a hurry. But hitting? No way.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I can't believe that's considered normal, if I beat Roxie she'd never come near me again... If I give too many voice corrections in one training session she gives up and hides under the bed even if I'm gentle, let alone ever laying a mean hand on her. Your family sounds terrible when it comes to dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

But a LOT of people believe that. . .and it's worth noting that sporting breeds (and other breeds too) were basically specifically bred to take abuse. Any dog deemed "soft" was/is killed or at least not used for breeding.

A lot of people believe that about kids, too, so it's not surprising.


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

Willowy said:


> But a LOT of people believe that. . .and it's worth noting that sporting breeds (and other breeds too) were basically specifically bred to take abuse. Any dog deemed "soft" was/is killed or at least not used for breeding.
> 
> A lot of people believe that about kids, too, so it's not surprising.


I guess it's not shocking that they treated me the same way. It's why the second I learned that beating dogs (and kids!) wasn't normal I had NO PROBLEM learning to train another way. And that was YEARS before I got a dog.


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

Kayota said:


> I can't believe that's considered normal, if I beat Roxie she'd never come near me again... If I give too many voice corrections in one training session she gives up and hides under the bed even if I'm gentle, let alone ever laying a mean hand on her. Your family sounds terrible when it comes to dogs.


The real issue is why it's so pervasive. I mean, my family I get. They beat their dogs, they beat their kids, etc. But my friends? Why is it everyone thinks that beating an animal and making it "fear you" is the proper way? I mean...I guess I get it in a way. People think a dog SHOULD be fearful of you and I suppose that's true. A fearful dog acts a certain way and people are okay with that. I want a dog that RESPECTS me. The way my dog acts compared to my friends and family is VERY different! He's earned the title "the happy idiot" because he is always so happy to be alive, and he's always doing stupid things because he's learned that it's okay to be daring and try new things.


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## PrinceandSlayerMcD (May 20, 2013)

I admit when Slayer was young she got hit once..I was never able to do it after that because I felt bad for it. The only time I did slap her was when she tried to run into my husbands bumper as he was pulling into our driveway...I did it because I panicked and she scared me to death.

With Prince, he was a shaking, fearful mess when I adopted him and with a VERY gentle hand has become a perfect dog. I think excessive force would have ruined him.


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## ludosmum (Jan 4, 2012)

Delphinus85 said:


> They aren't. This happened on the last visit for the first time and my dog isn't going back to their house. I would have said something to my dad to his face more aggressively than I did but our relationship is very...strained. I am trying to peacemake because...well, it's a long story.We only see them once every few months so keeping them apart isn't too hard. Basically, I can't verbally say anything to them about this situation without ruining years of hard work on our relationship but I can manipulate the situation to keep them apart. I just get so irritated that people think it's okay to hit dogs, you know? Or that somehow I am a terrible person because I DON'T do it!


My relationship would be more than "strained" if a family member ever did that to my dog. It would be non-existant. You need to never put your dog around these people. Supervised, or not.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> But a LOT of people believe that. . .and it's worth noting that sporting breeds (and other breeds too) were basically specifically bred to take abuse. Any dog deemed "soft" was/is killed or at least not used for breeding.
> 
> A lot of people believe that about kids, too, so it's not surprising.


Absolutely mindboggling, another sporting dog breeding myth, for once I am speechless.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Sounds like they're turds, no offense.

I get that all the time too. People who often don't know me like to tell me positive reinforcement only works on my dog because he's a little toy dog, and it would be wrong to use forceful methods on a small dog... They often use pit bulls as an example of a dog that needs "firm" (AKA forceful) training, and that they need to be shown "who the boss is"... except I foster mostly pit bulls, and I always use r+ training only with them 

That is also another reason why I hate going to dog park as well (sooo many people kicking their dogs, grabbing their muzzles and screaming at them, etc.), and also a reason why I hate my work sometimes (I work at a pet boutique, so people come in with their dogs and I see them disciplining them sometimes)...

Aaanyway, the only thing you can really do is keep going with your training, don't let anyone else discipline your dogs, and show everyone how well behaved your dog is through the use of that method only ^_^


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Yeahhhh, if I saw anyone slap my dog, they'd get a new shithole. That's unacceptable. And no, an Akita probably won't put up with it at all. 

Beating the snot out of your dog is completely common around here. It's disgusting and I've gotten to where I simply will not associate with people who believe in beating their dogs just for the sheer fact that my blood pressure can't handle it.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

I may have an anger management problem at the best of times, anyone who tried to hit my dog may end up 6 feet under.
though as a rule I will terminate family relationships over much less than that


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Willowy said:


> But a LOT of people believe that. . .and it's worth noting that sporting breeds (and other breeds too) were basically specifically bred to take abuse. Any dog deemed "soft" was/is killed or at least not used for breeding.
> 
> A lot of people believe that about kids, too, so it's not surprising.


This kind of confuses me... Most of the sporting breeds I've looked into are known to *be* 'soft' in general, and it's always mentioned that you need to use a specific approach in training them (not be harsh, etc).


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well, the proof will be in the pudding. Someday you will have a trained dog _who enjoys learning_, and a whole world of dog activities will be open to you. For some reason, a lot of people like their dogs shut-down and repressed behaviorally which I think is very, very sad. 

Sometimes when I get tired of people harping on something like this I say something like, "Well, I'll tell you what. We've both stated our positions clearly, so let's stop talking about this for now. If I don't end up with a well-trained dog and the skills to problem solve anything that comes up, you are welcome to tell me 'I told you so,' someday, ok?" 

Then I just refuse to talk about it any more. Change the subject, stare blankly into space or walk away if they bring it up, etc.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

ireth0 said:


> This kind of confuses me... Most of the sporting breeds I've looked into are known to *be* 'soft' in general, and it's always mentioned that you need to use a specific approach in training them (not be harsh, etc).


True, breeds like Viszlak, etc. are pretty soft. I suppose I'm thinking of Labs in particular. If a Lab can't take being zapped and choked and knocked around, nobody is going to want puppies out of him/her. But all through history, dogs have been specifically bred to put up with human nonsense. Whatever training methods were in vogue for what the breed was used for, dogs who tolerated that were favored. And let's face it: humans in general aren't very good at being nice to those who are dependent on them.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Flaming said:


> I may have an anger management problem at the best of times, anyone who tried to hit my dog may end up 6 feet under.
> though as a rule I will terminate family relationships over much less than that


lol... had to smile... I often wondered(little worried) when I was on patrol with my dog that if anyone ever kicked my dog if I wouldn't just have a knee jerk reaction and shoot them.. lol situation never came about..


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

to the OP (beautiful, beautiful pup !!) agree don't engage and ignore them.. Sounds like they need to justify themselves from guilt.... I always just nod and smile and not say anything.. it makes the stupid conversations so much shorter...


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## Delphinus85 (Mar 20, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> to the OP (beautiful, beautiful pup !!) agree don't engage and ignore them.. Sounds like they need to justify themselves from guilt.... I always just nod and smile and not say anything.. it makes the stupid conversations so much shorter...


Thanks. He is, isn't he? haha

That sounds like a good plan. Like I said, the situation with my family is very very.....unique.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Delphinus85 said:


> Yeah, my dad called Thorin a "brat" because he was biting the jowls of his dog when they were playing. Thorin wanted to play but his did not. So I saw him smack my dog upside the head. He ran straight for me and cowered. Then he got food possessive later so I grabben him and put him in his crate for a "time out". He was howling, so my dad was yelling at him in the crate and hitting the crate. Yeah. NOT a good experience!


 
I can tell you straight up that if ANYONE did that to my dogs they'd never be allowed near them again and they'd hear no end of it from me, yes, that INCLUDES my dad and my brothers!


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

One of the little cousins brought a friend to the barbeque yesterday and I "teacher voice" told him off in front of everyone for trying to pull my dog by his collar with the collar straight up where it could hurt his neck.

If someone was at MY house telling me to beat my dog they'd find themselves thrown out. If someone was at my house and laid an anything but gentle hand on my dog, they'd have a black eye when they were thrown out (which I understand is ironic). If I was at their house, I'd pack up and leave immediately.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree. People who hit dogs to train them are not going to listen to other methods in the heat of the moment. Many decades ago, my brother recalled his dogs and then hit them when they came back. When they ran off later, he called again... and they didn't come. I learned from that experience, but he didn't. Years later, I took him to a Turid Rugaas Seminar, and he saw the difference. 

I also agree that Labs tend to forgive you for some abuse .... but the relationship is so much better with no abuse.

I believe that people who don't train their dogs, don't understand how much better life is with a dog who obeys. But, in the same way, people who use harsher methods, don't understand at all, how much better the relationship is when you can communicate with your dog. I think these people don't understand that dogs can be independent and make decisions, learning to do what you would want - for the most part - rather than waiting to be told or getting into mischief...


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

On the walk this weekend, one of the new(er) ladies smacked her chihuahua mix in the face because he snarked at a larger do that got too close, too fast. 

I can barely hold my tongue when strangers do it in public - if someone was, or even attempted, hitting my dog in my own home they would be asked to leave immediately, and would not be invited back.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Fortunately, my family does not believe in corporal punishment for kids OR dogs. Well, the kids thing came first, but when we finally got a pup, it was easy to explain to my folks that positive conditioning was the way to go.

On the flip side, I have a horrible temper and a challenging dog, and I have lost it with Gyp several times over the years. Each time, I am ashamed at my actions and would never justify them by calling them training. Each time, it has done more harm than good. In fact, once as a pup, Gypsy had a massive loose crapfest all over the rug in the breakfast room. I didn't notice until I stepped in it and tracked it all over the kitchen. I blew my top at Gyp, and y'know? She wouldn't poop in front of me - inside OR outside - for two weeks. Not the result I'd intended.


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm sorry your family and friends believe that. It is a popular concept where I live now and where I grew up. I will not stand for anyone yelling at my animals let alone trying to lay a hand on them. My father is one that believes the whole Alpha dog crap. Luckily he knows better than to try to do anything to our dogs. The rest of my family would be livid. He doesn't have much to do with the animals now because he knows we will not let him live it down. Years ago he smacked one of our Giant Schanuzers and I lost it. I didn't talk to him for about 3 months. He has never touched or yelled at any of our animals since that time.


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## ShelterPups (Jan 3, 2013)

I cling each time I read the word BEAT!This evening I lost my cool when my Terrier mix was growling at my 4 month old Miniature Schnauzer puppy. I own 5 dogs,one being a 7 month old puppy, the Mini Schnauzer I mentioned in the last sentence.The Terrier is 3 years old and likes to play with the puppies. Out side they all conduct themselves well but indoors the Terrier forgets to play nicely and gets to rough. After telling her NO! several times I smacked her on her butt twice. You'd thought I had broke her heart. I felt so bad I held her and cried telling her several time that I was sorry and she gave me doggie kisses letting me know she still loves me.

Dang I still be like a Butt Wipe! But BEAT my dogs? I hope fellow forum members don't think I BEAT my dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I don't think 2 smacks qualify as a beating. But it is thoroughly ineffective training, and is only an indication of a lack of self-control (I don't say that to be mean, because I've done it myself). Not anything to be proud of or to recommend to others.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I'm just aghast that so many people out there are not only beating their dogs, but admitting to it and even recommending it. Do they not realize that animal abuse is a crime?


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## ludosmum (Jan 4, 2012)

When Ludo was very young he was a jumper. He really wanted to get in your face to welcome you home. Well, I was dating a guy and he brought his mother over to my apartment to meet me. I warned her and told the appropriate way to react. She, instead, chose to kick him in his stomach and - before I could reach her - place her foot on his chest to hold him down.

Needless to say I did not react well. There was a lot of forum-unfriendly words, some pushing of legs off my dog and pulling Ludo behind me while I got in her face. I won't pretend I handled it as well as I could have but it was pure instinct. Someone was hurting my Ludo and I wasn't putting up with it. That relationship did not last when he dared to suggest his mother knew best about those situations.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I'm just aghast that so many people out there are not only beating their dogs, but admitting to it and even recommending it. Do they not realize that animal abuse is a crime?


You can do almost anything to a dog (or horse) as long as you call it "training". If the dog is not visibly physically injured, the chances of any kind of enforcement happening are practically zero. And some states/localities/etc. prefer personal freedoms over any kind of animal welfare laws, so there may not be anything to enforce :/.

ETA: beating children is generally illegal and child abuse laws are more often enforced, but if a kid acts up, just see how many people recommend using a belt. Can't expect better for dogs.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

for the negative anticipation reaction that it cause long term from a dog (sudden snapping biting for (human account) no reason towards people unsuspecting strangers or their owners) it's not worth it. I don't see how it's not mentally connected. " this is why my dad always lectured us about other peoples animals """ you don't know what they know".... meaning a loving pet from us could look like something totally different to a strange dog that was taught differently.....


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Willowy said:


> You can do almost anything to a dog (or horse) as long as you call it "training". If the dog is not visibly physically injured, the chances of any kind of enforcement happening are practically zero.


Sadly, I'm pretty sure this is true beyond all reason.
String a dog up on a walk, it's abuse.
String a dog up during a "training session", it's legal.
wat.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

Willowy said:


> . .and it's worth noting that sporting breeds (and other breeds too) were basically specifically bred to take abuse. Any dog deemed "soft" was/is killed or at least not used for breeding.
> 
> .


 I have never known this to be true.. and I even know some fairly old fashioned people (in the dog sense) who hunt with and breed Labs..


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

grab said:


> I have never known this to be true.. and I even know some fairly old fashioned people (in the dog sense) who hunt with and breed Labs..


Different people than I know, apparently :/.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Willowy said:


> ETA: beating children is generally illegal and child abuse laws are more often enforced, but if a kid acts up, just see how many people recommend using a belt. Can't expect better for dogs.


I can't find the law, but its "common knowledge" around here that an "open palm below the neck" doesn't constitute abuse. -.-


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Sheesh. Pretty sure I would never bring my dog around my parents, or those friends, ever again. If that means spending less time with them, so be it.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> I can't find the law, but its "common knowledge" around here that an "open palm below the neck" doesn't constitute abuse. -.-


From the same province but
open palm below the neck and leave no marks. Don't use anything else but your hand and by law here hitting a kid is legal, I don't like it though. So hitting a dog would be a lot less taboo (or at least in my city it is)

edit: they discuss that law here http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/lop/researchpublications/prb0510-e.htm


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Stricter child abuse laws in Canada, I guess. Dang, I hear people threaten their 2- or 3-year-old (and older, of course) with a belt/spoon/stick/whatever all the time. Whether they actually do it I don't know but the kid apparently knows what it means. I looked up the laws once and they're vague (definition of abuse: "causing substantial harm") , but it sounds like you can leave marks as long as they aren't still there after a couple of hours :/. Yay for personal freedoms?

The animal laws just say that you need to care for them in a manner consistent with normal husbandry (definition of abuse: "unnecessary, unjustifiable, or unreasonable physical pain or suffering is caused, permitted, or allowed to continue"). If you can justify it, knock yerself out.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I lived in the South for several years. There you were considered a bad parent if you didn't hit your child. Hands, belts, switches, etc were all popular. When I would tell people that we didn't spank, we were looked at like weirdos and told that our children would soon be out of control and we were horrible parents. Nevermind that my children were the ones quietly obeying while theirs were running wild.

I think I actually saw less abuse of dogs that open hitting of children in the South where I lived, but it's more likely I just wasn't around people and their dogs as much as I am up here. Here I have only run into a couple of people who were insistent that I alpha roll my dog or smack it and I have politely ignored them. If anyone did actually raise a hand to my dogs or my children, they'd find me in between them pretty quickly. I feel like it's my job to protect any animals or minors in my home.


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