# Had an argument with my German Shepard today..



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Alright, so I go outside to take the garbage to the curb for tomorrow, and Frida starts bugging me as she sometimes does in order to get me to walk her. Now I was -going- to walk her -after- I took the garbage to the curb, but she got me so mad that I spent the next 5 to 10 minutes throwing snowballs at her and kicking at her when she got too close (they never connected, she's good at dodging and the one time it would have I stopped, I don't actually want to hurt her much) and her growling, barring teeth and doing the barking thing while running around. Anyway, I finally stopped when I was running out of breath and took the garbage down but I'm still mad with her. I didn't take her for her 4 oclock walk (she still got her other 3 walks before that though) and I still haven't given her her supper and am considering not giving it to her at all.

I was hoping for some input. Am I being too hard on her? And any ideas on how to avoid this type of thing in the future?


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

If you withhold dinner, she will not understand why. Our pets mostly think in the moment. Feed her dinner. There's no point in being mad.

I'd guess she was in need of exercise by the evening. Excess energy, combined with a change in routine (assuming you usually walk her at this time or she knew, based on context, that you were prepping to walk her) probably caused her to rile up. Throwing snowballs and kicking will not calm a dog down. Instead, that probably made things worse. I would have, in your shoes, commanded her to a "down" and "stay" while taking the garbage out. 

I would say you're being the wrong kind of hard on her. If you haven't already, train her to commands such as "down" and "stay." How much exercise does she get? A high energy shepherd might get into trouble simply because it's not getting enough stimulation, i.e. the energy has to go somewhere.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

Holy cow. You are being border line abusive. You were threatening the dog she was trying to defend her self she has no idea what she did and not feeding her on purpose is cruel. "You don't want to hurt her much" what is that about?? You need to quit what you are doing or you will lose you bond you have with your dog if you do have one, you will make the dog afraid to be near you, could go into submissive urination as my dog does from being in an abusive home before I got him. You will mess your pet up emitionally.Weather you are actually hitt her or not you are mentally abuseing her and sometimes that is worse than physical. You need to stop what you are doing and start using positive reinforcement(clicker training) that will help almost any behavior and you need to stop using intimidation. You need to take the time and go through ALL these videos.

KikoPup

http://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup/videos?view=0

Her website
http://dogmantics.com/free-video-list/

Tab
http://www.youtube.com/user/tab289/videos?view=0

His Website
http://trainingpositive.com/?page_id=4


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## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Yikes.
Ok, the first thing that I thought of when I read your post was a parent that argues or engages in an argument with a child, at the child's level. Your actions struck me as extremely childish, when you are supposed to be the teacher or guide to your dog.

Dogs do NOT think the same way humans do, they do not understand all of our actions the way we hope/expect/want them to. Your dog had NO CLUE why you were throwing snowballs and kicking at her. Absolutely none. She was clueless as to why the person she is supposed to trust was acting that way.

You also cannot reason with dogs. They are not human beings. You cannot explain to them that they have angered or frustrated you because they did such and such (in your case "bugging" to get you to walk her), and then give them consequences, like "since you bugged me I am not going to give you dinner." It doesn't work that way. 

Any time you do ANY correction, the timing of that correction is the most important piece of the puzzle. NOW, I am not saying you should do ANY correction, because I don't think her behavior warranted a correction. My point is, withholding dinner is way too far after the actual behavior for a dog to make any connection.

What exactly was she doing to "bug" you to take her on a walk?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Best thing you can do when you are mad is put the dog somewhere safe and controlled (ex. her crate) and go chill out. Kicking at her and throwing snowballs won't help anything; as you saw yourself, it just riled her up even more. A lot of dogs see that kind of action as an invitation to play. I know if I 'hit' my dog and threw snowballs at him he would think I was trying to wrestle with him. Seriously, if you need some psychological fulfillment in punishing her, the most hurtful thing you could do to her short of actually causing her pain (which would be abuse. Don't do it) would be to put her somewhere and ignore her. Though another bit of advice is not to use the crate as a punishment tool, or you'll mess up whatever crate training you might have.

We all have those days. Relax and don't take it out on the dog.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> If you withhold dinner, she will not understand why. Our pets mostly think in the moment.


Has their been studies that prove this? I have my doubts.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Feed her dinner. There's no point in being mad.


I think the issue here is if she understands that dinner is being withheld because of her behaviour, she might learn something. This isn't the first time she's pulled something like this, I don't think just acting like everything is fine is working.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I'd guess she was in need of exercise by the evening. Excess energy, combined with a change in routine (assuming you usually walk her at this time or she knew, based on context, that you were prepping to walk her) probably caused her to rile up.


I do walk her at around this time, but note the around part; it's at times a bit later, at times a bit earlier. I don't want to think that she can bully me into walking her on command. It's a tactic she seems to use to some extent with the small dog we have (she angers him, and he gives chase, which is what she wants him to do) and I don't want to be yet another sap.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Throwing snowballs and kicking will not calm a dog down.


That, atleast, I can agree with. I just want her to understand how annoyed I get when she starts with her aggressive growls and looking like she's going to pounce on me. If I knew there was a better way I'd use it.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Instead, that probably made things worse. I would have, in your shoes, commanded her to a "down" and "stay" while taking the garbage out.


She's never been trained and I doubt she ever will be. I've been trying to train her to sit by pushing her rear down. It works... kind of. Today I did it maybe 7 times though... it almost feels like it's stopped working so well. Anyway, she's 9, and she's technically my mother's, who's left the country 2 months ago and won't be coming back for around another 2. 



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I would say you're being the wrong kind of hard on her. If you haven't already, train her to commands such as "down" and "stay."


Trying on the sit as I've mentioned. But you need to have incentives/dis-incentives.. maybe I should give her a treat when she responds to sit or something?



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> How much exercise does she get? A high energy shepherd might get into trouble simply because it's not getting enough stimulation, i.e. the energy has to go somewhere.


She could walk herself all day long if she wanted to, as I live on a farm. The reason she could bug me is because she'd already been outside for an hour and a half. She doesn't want to just "exercise", she wants -me- to be there. I don't know anyone other then myself who walks their dogs 4 times a day, but I'm sure there are some who do. Anyway, I was going to walk her, but -after- I took out the trash. There was a time when she was happy to walk with me to deposit the trash, but since my mother's left, I've been giving her 4 walks a day to compensate for the fact that my mother isn't here for her to lie next to her bed with. And this is what I get for it -.-


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

1st - Go feed your dog. Take a walk by yourself and then come back and take her for a walk.

She did nothing that you should be mad about and your anger was completely lost on her, in fact she probably thought you had a weird way of playing.

If her asking for a walk is an issue for you, just ignore her and go about your business until you're ready to take her. Gently give her a word or phrase, like "not yet". The sooner you realize that she is not trying to be difficult, or spiteful, the sooner you will get over this anger thing you got going on. When you're calmer, try reading some of the stickies in the training sections, Doggy Zen, Rev Up and Cool Down, etc. Get yourself a copy of "The Other End of the Leash" and see if you can work on understanding her perspective. 

Honestly, your dog is not trying to piss you off.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

frillint said:


> Holy cow. You are being border line abusive. You were threatening the dog she was trying to defend her self she has no idea what she did


I don't think it's that clear cut. She was the first one to intimidate -me- with her growls and ready to pounce like posture. Seen from that standpoint, I was simply retaliating. She could have left me alone at that point, but she kept on coming back, so I kept on throwing snowballs her way.



frillint said:


> and not feeding her on purpose is cruel.


So is her intimidation. She's worse with others and my mother has always let her get away with it. Not on my watch. 



frillint said:


> "You don't want to hurt her much" what is that about??


Exactly what I said. She's nipped at people's heals, she's not exactly innocent. She hasn't dared do something like that with me, but I don't want to give her any ideas that I'm a pushover.



frillint said:


> You need to quit what you are doing or you will lose you bond you have with your dog if you do have one, you will make the dog afraid to be near you, could go into submissive urination as my dog does from being in an abusive home before I got him.


I doubt it, she's rather scrappy. And don't think that I'm not afraid myself, this dog isn't exactly small. Also, if I were one of the couriers that come to this house, I'd be like some of them; refuse to get out of their truck and just wait for me to come to them.



frillint said:


> You will mess your pet up emitionally.


Honestly, I had a great dog in Mexico. That dog was ours from the beginning. The only time she barked at -anyone- was with someone who I decided was someone looking to maybe steal from us. With everyone else, she'd just like them, maybe do the 'human greet' (2 paws up on the person) if they were familiar with them, but that's it. I only came into contact with Frida long after she'd been born. 



frillint said:


> Weather you are actually hitt her or not you are mentally abuseing her and sometimes that is worse than physical.


And what about -her- initial intimidation tactics? My approach may not be the best but I find it's rather annoying how you just take her side in all of this.



frillint said:


> You need to stop what you are doing and start using positive reinforcement(clicker training) that will help almost any behavior and you need to stop using intimidation. You need to take the time and go through ALL these videos.
> 
> KikoPup
> 
> ...


Well, it might be a good idea to take a look at atleast one of those.. because I certainly don't want a repeat of today. This one looks like what I'm wanting to achieve:






After looking at this a while, noticed a pretty big problem; I don't use a leash on the german sheppard .


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

...Dude, if you feel the need to 'retaliate' against your DOG, there are some issues. 

She's a dog. Do some research into animal psychology. She's not a kid, she's not vying to take over the world, she's not trying to make you miserable. She's a DOG. Her behavior obviously has some issues. I suspect they're related to being a teenaged puppy, and a velcro breed owned by someone who sees her as a threat to... something, and attributes her to thought processes she is not capable of, and is living in 'defensive' mode. OF COURSE she kept lunging and snarling with you kicking and throwing things at her! I'd lunge and snarl at you if you did that crap to me, too. (Yes, yes, she started it. Are you a dog? 2 years old? Turn, walk away, and COOL OFF before dealing with her, don't just keep amping her up)


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

Some dogs will never get tired by just walking. She needs mental stimulation as well. She will not understand not getting dinner thats hours and hours from when she bugged you she will not understand why shes not getting food. 

She wont be trained period if you continue with what you doing. Shoving her rear end to the ground will not work. Watch the videos I posted above.* Positive Reinforcement* is the key. 

She's not bullying you around shes used to the schedule and knows she will be going out or eating soon or whatever it is, so she is getting excited. 

Start watching the videos I posted and start working with her when you are calm. Getting frustrated will only frustrate her to. Sessions should only be about 5 minutes long and they should always end on a positive note making the dog eger to do it next time and yes you need treats or something the dog likes to start training something small so its easy for the dog to eat quick. Some small pieces of cheese, cut up hot dog warmed up, or some soft treats from the petstore.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Scott75 said:


> Has their been studies that prove this? I have my doubts.
> I think the issue here is if she understands that dinner is being withheld because of her behaviour, she might learn something. This isn't the first time she's pulled something like this, I don't think just acting like everything is fine is working.
> 
> *It's logic more than anything else. Dogs don't understand the concept of 'withheld.' Or else all our dogs would be thinking we're 'witholding' the treats in the cookie jar, the chews in the cabinets, and even OUR food. There is NOTHING a dog sees as 'rightfully theirs' except the time, food, or attention that is given to them at that very moment. Dogs that 'bug people' for any of those things don't do so because it is the right time for them to have them, but rather they are accustomed to receiving those things at certain times and are trying to get those things by catching your attention. Dogs that do this regularly have learned that doing certain things WILL get them what they want. But that is a training issue.
> ...


Answers in bold.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Unless you are 4 years old, that kind of behavior on your part is just kind of baffling. Punishing a dog for getting excited about going for a walk is just, well, indicative of a very immature personality, really. You need to train your dog if you want her to act a certain way. You don't need a leash to train. Watch the videos.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

doxiemommy said:


> Yikes.
> Ok, the first thing that I thought of when I read your post was a parent that argues or engages in an argument with a child, at the child's level. Your actions struck me as extremely childish, when you are supposed to be the teacher or guide to your dog.


I just don't like being intimidated. I imagine that you don't like being intimidated as well?



doxiemommy said:


> Dogs do NOT think the same way humans do, they do not understand all of our actions the way we hope/expect/want them to. Your dog had NO CLUE why you were throwing snowballs and kicking at her. Absolutely none.


How do you know? This isn't the first time that I've gotten upset with her for exactly the same reasons as today, this was only the most pronounced. Previously, I'd throw a snowball or 2 and we would 'settle', but not this time. It's quite possible that part of this is that many times when she starts with this, I'll actually be -just- planning to walk her, instead of taking out the trash first, but she's got to get out of this habit as it's quite irritating.



doxiemommy said:


> She was clueless as to why the person she is supposed to trust was acting that way.


Trust should be mutual, and I don't trust -her-. I don't want to worry that if I look away from her for a second that she'll growl and get in the pounce position. 



doxiemommy said:


> You also cannot reason with dogs. They are not human beings. You cannot explain to them that they have angered or frustrated you because they did such and such (in your case "bugging" to get you to walk her), and then give them consequences, like "since you bugged me I am not going to give you dinner." It doesn't work that way.


There may be some truth to this. It would certainly be a hell of a lot easier if I could have a human type talk with her. But there's got to be something I can do other then forget about it. 



doxiemommy said:


> Any time you do ANY correction, the timing of that correction is the most important piece of the puzzle. NOW, I am not saying you should do ANY correction, because I don't think her behavior warranted a correction.


Well, that's something we disagree on then.



doxiemommy said:


> My point is, withholding dinner is way too far after the actual behavior for a dog to make any connection.


Again, how would you know?



doxiemommy said:


> What exactly was she doing to "bug" you to take her on a walk?


The growling and the pounce like position, followed by a pounce. She virtually never touches me when she does this, she knows full well that just getting close will anger me just fine. Like I said, this is not the first time she's done this, and I'm beginning to feel that the snowballs, atleast, is not working to dissuade her from doing it again.. so I'm thinking her dinner. The night is still young, I may change my mind about that dinner, but I haven't fed it to her yet (note that she -did- get breakfast and lunch).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

She's totally not going to understand why you're not feeding her. Have you sat down with her and had a nice talk about "now, if you bother me about walking, I won't feed you"?  That's really not a thing that works on dogs (yes, I've seen people try it. Doesn't work). How in the world is she supposed to connect her previous behavior with not eating? 

I imagine she doesn't like to be intimidated either.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Why don't you try walking her at a completely different time of day? It seems like she's accustomed to being walked a certain time, even if it you do stagger it a bit. And she's just excited for it to happen. OR, when she gets riled up, ignore her till she calms down then, without any fuss, just clip the leash on and take her. That way she can't predict it, and she'll learn that being calm warrants walks, because at the VERY MOMENT she got her reward, she was calm. 

Also, I honestly don't care if your dog is being fed tonight. A dog can go an entire day without food and especially if she already ate breakfast and lunch, she won't miss her dinner. But I really hope you understand the logic behind why that won't dissuade her from 'bugging you' again.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Canyx said:


> Best thing you can do when you are mad is put the dog somewhere safe and controlled (ex. her crate) and go chill out.


For starters, we don't have a crate for her, and I'm not too keen on trying to grab her when she's upset and dragging her inside anyway. I've done it once or twice, but I definitely think that it's a risky business; I don't know about you, but a fully grown german sheppard is not a dog that I like trifling with. Put another way, her collar is right next to her mouth and while she's never really bitten me, I don't want there to ever be a first time for something like that. 



Canyx said:


> Kicking at her and throwing snowballs won't help anything; as you saw yourself, it just riled her up even more.


Yes, that is certainly true. I just can't currently see any other way of explaining to her how much I hate her intimidation tactics.



Canyx said:


> A lot of dogs see that kind of action as an invitation to play.


I think she knows full well that I'm not playing. She -may- have thought that if she did this, I would start walking her though. She does this to my mother all the time and she puts up with it, but I refuse.



Canyx said:


> I know if I 'hit' my dog and threw snowballs at him he would think I was trying to wrestle with him. Seriously, if you need some psychological fulfillment in punishing her, the most hurtful thing you could do to her short of actually causing her pain (which would be abuse. Don't do it) would be to put her somewhere and ignore her.


Don't I know it. The biggest problem is that my mother's not here for her. She's not my dog, she's my mother's dog. I walk her, but I have never kept her company outside of that, while she enjoyed following my mother everywhere. Put simply, my room is my sanctuary and she's not invited. Frequently, I'll put a barricade up in the kitchen so she can't be in it, because I don't want her bothering me when I'm doing dishes, but in general I let her stay in the kitchen. She has a couch there that's essentially hers for a good part of the time that she's inside. Sometimes she goes to my mother's room, but ofcourse without my mother here, she's the only one there.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

I really don't even know what to say. You asked for help and we have given you tons of suggestions and all you have done is defended your previous actions

Do you think she was able to teach her dogs this by doing what your doing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTsw7RlmyJE

or him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-m3rz6P2VM

One of my dogs is 17 and I am still teaching him new things, so they are never to old.

Here's one on training sit/down/stand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmhGsDl0OWI


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## Bethl (Apr 30, 2012)

Just curious..... do you believe in the alpha theory regarding dogs?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

If you're afraid of being bitten, which is a valid concern, you should have her on a 6+ foot leash or a long line. So if she gets riled up you don't need to grab her collar, but simply pick up the other end of the leash and tether her somewhere until she calms down. Don't drag her, jerk the leash, talk to her, or even make eye contact as you do this. Just make it as matter-of-fact as possible. After a while approach her, and if she gets riled up again walk away. Eventually, when she is calm while you approach her, nonchalantly take the leash and go on the walk.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

3doglady said:


> 1st - Go feed your dog.


Well, since virtually everyone here seemed to think I should and the one who didn't also didn't think it'd make any difference in regards to her behaviour, I decided to put her dinner on her plate. And boy am I glad I did because she's done something that she almost never does; she didn't touch it. I think she's jonesing for that 4 oclock walk she never got. I must admit I'm a bit happy about this.. it makes me feel like she's suffering somewhat for the suffering she put me through...



3doglady said:


> Take a walk by yourself and then come back and take her for a walk.


The walk isn't happening anymore, I don't do night walks. She'll have to make do with her other 3 walks today. Seriously, before I came to this farm, she was lucky to get one a day.



3doglady said:


> She did nothing that you should be mad about


I strongly disagree with that statement -.-



3doglady said:


> and your anger was completely lost on her, in fact she probably thought you had a weird way of playing.


Judging from the fact that she hasn't touched her supper, I think she's figured out by now that something's wrong. I think my skipping the 4 oclock walk tipped her off.



3doglady said:


> If her asking for a walk is an issue for you, just ignore her and go about your business until you're ready to take her.


Personally, I take offense to any creature barking and doing pouncing gestures at me. If it were a human, I'd have a serious talk with them. If it were some other animal... ironically, Frida would chase it off; she makes sure that the ducks don't disturb me on our walks .



3doglady said:


> Gently give her a word or phrase, like "not yet".


Wouldn't I have to train her to understand what that means? God, so much work for this dang dog -.- I do sometimes try to tell them that I'll do it soon, but this works much better when they're inside. Frida virtually never acts this way inside, but she can be quite different when she's outside. If I only had one dog to walk, I might try putting a leash on her and training her a bit that way, but walking 2 dogs at the same time.. especially these 2 dogs that are prone to skirmishes, I don't know. I've done it once, it seemed to be working, but then I let Frida get into some bushes and she got all tangled up, took me some time to get her out. It only happened because I'm used to letting Frida do whatever she wants, since she virtually never has a leash on her. To be honest, if she wants to get out of it, it's not too hard for her, she just needs to pull on the collar until it comes off, she did that once to get out of having a bath. We never give her baths. I actually bought her a larger harness that she couldn't get out of, then someone took it off of her and lost it -.- I may get her another one, although the money situation isn't so good right now.



3doglady said:


> The sooner you realize that she is not trying to be difficult, or spiteful, the sooner you will get over this anger thing you got going on.


I think she was trying to get me to walk her before I wanted to walk her. Call that whatever you like, but I don't want her to think that this is a tactic she should use on me.



3doglady said:


> When you're calmer, try reading some of the stickies in the training sections, Doggy Zen, Rev Up and Cool Down, etc. Get yourself a copy of "The Other End of the Leash" and see if you can work on understanding her perspective.


I feel like I've got to take a course just to get this dog to behave -.-. I might end up following atleast some of your advice though. Like I said, I don't want a repeat of today.



3doglady said:


> Honestly, your dog is not trying to piss you off.


Oh, I agree on that; she just wants her walks when she wants them (which is virtually always, but she's atleast gotten generally used to the idea that she only gets 4 a day). This is all about teaching her proper manners I think.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

CptJack said:


> ...Dude, if you feel the need to 'retaliate' against your DOG, there are some issues.


I don't deny it. It's why I came here to begin with. This isn't a situation that I want continuing.



CptJack said:


> She's a dog. Do some research into animal psychology.


I agreed to take care of my mother's dog while she was away, not become an expert on them. However, I will try to learn something on them, after all, I still have 2 months to take care of her alone.



CptJack said:


> She's not a kid, she's not vying to take over the world, she's not trying to make you miserable. She's a DOG.


I know she's not a kid, never felt she had pretensions of world domination and I doubt she's trying to make me miserable as that generally doesn't bode so well for her as if I'm miserable, I'm probably not treating her extra nice (yes, I do believe that dogs can figure out the rather simple concept that an unhappy caretaker probably isn't good news for them). I do believe, however, that she's trying to get her way, and that she's doing it in a way that seriously aggravates me. I certainly believe that she's doing it because she -thinks- that this is the best way to get what she wants, I'm just trying to teach her that no, this is -not- the best way to get what she wants, and I'm hoping the fact that I didn't give her her 4 oclock walk may make her ponder if her approach was the best.



CptJack said:


> Her behavior obviously has some issues. I suspect they're related to being a teenaged puppy,


She's 9 human years old.. is that a teenaged puppy?



CptJack said:


> and a velcro breed owned by someone who sees her as a threat to... something,


Maybe you think that it's peachy keen if a dog barks at you and does mock pounces in your direction, but I don't and I know that I'm not alone in this. However, that comment about velcro breed.. so german sheppards are like that in general? Always wanting to be by their owner's side type thing? I know that she loved following my mother around anyway. I wish I could let her do that but there a few reasons why that's just not going to happen:

1- I'm alergic to dogs (I've gotten used to her and the little one to some extent, but I can't really touch her for long without having to wash my hands).

2- I greatly prize having my own room that's free from dogs. Sometimes I'll bring the little guy in to dry him off after washing off all the clumps of snow that he accumulates, but that's about it for dogs in my room.



CptJack said:


> and attributes her to thought processes she is not capable of, and is living in 'defensive' mode. OF COURSE she kept lunging and snarling with you kicking and throwing things at her! I'd lunge and snarl at you if you did that crap to me, too.


Seems you think you're capable of her thought processes, but somehow she's not capable of ours ? Anyway, she started the whole pouncing thing first -.-



CptJack said:


> (Yes, yes, she started it. Are you a dog? 2 years old? Turn, walk away, and COOL OFF before dealing with her, don't just keep amping her up)


I'm thinking that maybe the thing to do is to just walk her on a leash and bring her back inside. One of the biggest problems is that she can just sit out there and when I need to do something she can do her whole pounce routine. If I leashed her, walked her, and then brought her back in she couldn't do any of this nonsense. A lot of the time when she's out there alone, she's essentially just waiting for me to go out there. Then again, sometimes she's actually busy exploring. It's probably one of those situations that most owners never have to deal with, as the only time most owners have to deal with a dog outside is when they're leashed and walking with them.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

She's trying to play with you! Quit being so bloody ridiculous.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

> She's never been trained and I doubt she ever will be. I've been trying to train her to sit by pushing her rear down. It works... kind of. Today I did it maybe 7 times though... it almost feels like it's stopped working so well. Anyway, she's 9, and she's technically my mother's, who's left the country 2 months ago and won't be coming back for around another 2.


Our dogs are never too old to learn. In some ways, my dog learns better now that she's more mature. Sure, you have years of bad behaviors to iron out of her. But if you don't succeed in doing so, it's not her fault; it's yours. Shepherds, especially, are very intelligent and handler oriented. If you want to train her, you can. But my impression is that you need to adjust - and significantly - your perspective on dog mindset and training.

Instead of pushing her bum down, hold the treat over her head so she has to lean back to reach it. Luring her correctly, which might take some time and patience, she should fall back onto her bottom. Even if it's brief or barely, reward with a "good girl!" and give her the treat. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Then add the "sit" command as you lure her. Eventually, you can phase out luring and then phase out treats.



> Trying on the sit as I've mentioned. But you need to have incentives/dis-incentives.. maybe I should give her a treat when she responds to sit or something?


Incentives. To make a dog really work for you (read: learn optimally), you need to foster enthusiasm. You can't do this by constantly punishing. Ignore or patiently redirect mistakes, and heavily reward desired behavior. Find something that your dog LOVES, be it hot dog chunks, a tug rope, or petting, and use that to motivate. My dog would do anything for a simple toss of the tennis ball, for example, but treats are often the easiest reward to use.

My advice? Step back for a moment and realize that you're anthropomorphizing your dog to a huge degree, and that does no good for either of you. As silly as this may sound, realize that she is a simple animal. She generally lives and thinks for the joy of the moment. She's not manipulating you on some deep level. If you're serious about dealing with her issues, you'll have to be patient and positive. You've received some excellent tips from people here who know a lot about dogs.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

The barking and pouncing really sounds like play to me to. My boy barks all the time when hes excited and doing the play bow and jumping all over he is a German Shepherd as well and when I rescued him he was all kinds of mess up from abuse mental and physical I am still dealing with the mental issues it is no fun at all. Give her more mental stimulation she may tire more from that. Yes, German Shepherds are known velcro dogs the second I even move to resituate on the couch if he even thinks I might be getting up he flys right over to me and follows me back in forth into the bathroom everywhere. He didn't get anything when he didn't eat. He didn't eat because he wasn't hungry. You should look into calming signals the does does to you to calm you down and things you can do to calm the dog down. There are many books out there that will help you understand the dog more. One that was recently suggested to me is The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. I have ordered it and am awaiting delivery. 

German Shepherds are the best breed in my opinion they are so loyal, obedient with the right training, protective, the learn quick, and are so willing to please. Training and teaching tricks are so much fun. Once you get out of your mindset and watch the videos of the people I posted you might have fun with him in seeing what you can get him to learn


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

frillint said:


> Some dogs will never get tired by just walking. She needs mental stimulation as well.


frill, I think I'd like to be your dog, you sure seem to do a lot of pampering, laugh . Anyway, what did you have in mind?



frillint said:


> She will not understand not getting dinner thats hours and hours from when she bugged you she will not understand why shes not getting food.


Actually, dinner is usually a little after the 4 oclock walk.. sometimes an hour or so later, but usually not more then that. Anyway, as I mentioned in another post, when I finally decided to give her dinner, she didn't touch it. I think she's become accustomed to going for her 4 oclock walk first and then eating dinner. Since the 4 oclock walk never happened due to our little skirmish, she seems to have become uninterested in dinner. Right now, she was making these little sounds that I believe is her way of saying that she still wants her 4 oclock walk. I let her know that if she continued, I'd be sending her to her room, so she piped down. She's so much easier to control when she's inside.



frillint said:


> She wont be trained period if you continue with what you doing. Shoving her rear end to the ground will not work. Watch the videos I posted above.* Positive Reinforcement* is the key.


The rear end thing works more or less... I mean, I frequently just have to put my foot up for her to get the picture and sit. But I may try a bit of that positive reinforcement thing too.



frillint said:


> She's not bullying you around


I disagree with you there. I explain below...



frillint said:


> shes used to the schedule and knows she will be going out or eating soon or whatever it is, so she is getting excited.


I agree that she's guessing she may be getting a walk soon, but I also think that she thinks that if she pounces at me I might chase her and thus get her walk. As mentioned, she does this with the little dog, and since I do have -him- on a leash, when he walks, I walk. She also does the same thing with my mother when she's taking her out for a walk and I think she's gotten idea that her barking and pouncing routine is what gets her to walk. I'm hoping that it's beginning to sink in that I'm not so easily led and I'm not putting up with it. But as mentioned, I don't like the whole snowball/more barking routine either, so I am thinking of looking at some of the information you guys have supplied.



frillint said:


> Start watching the videos I posted and start working with her when you are calm. Getting frustrated will only frustrate her to. Sessions should only be about 5 minutes long and they should always end on a positive note making the dog eager to do it next time and yes you need treats or something the dog likes to start training something small so its easy for the dog to eat quick. Some small pieces of cheese, cut up hot dog warmed up, or some soft treats from the petstore.


Well, it might prove to be entertaining for all involved . Any particular video you think I should start with?


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

What an interesting first thread you made 

:lie:


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## synm26 (Jul 26, 2012)

read below dont know how to delete post


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## Ratness (Jan 5, 2013)

BrittanyG said:


> She's trying to play with you! Quit being so bloody ridiculous.


Thats exactly what I though as well... especially the pouncing and barking. I mean she is not a puppy but it is exactly what my mothers puppy does. Dogs are weird XD


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## synm26 (Jul 26, 2012)

Scott75 said:


> 1- I'm alergic to dogs (I've gotten used to her and the little one to some extent, but I can't really touch her for long without having to wash my hands).
> 
> .


 than why agree to take care of a dog...right there bad idea


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## kitley2001 (Aug 11, 2010)

Scott...I think you are really bored, and trying to pull one over on us. What kind of person admits on a dog forum, what you did, did not do, and your lack of feelings for dogs???? Trying to train this dog in two months, when your Mom had not trained him in 9 year is just nuts. Sounds to me like you have never liked this dog, and are bound and determined to show him that you are the boss. Find someone else to look after him for 2 months, or pay to have him kennelled. I wonder what your Mom would think if she read your posts. She asked you to watch him, not ruin and be mean to him. You seem to be quite unbalanced, or immature, or a combination of both. Take a pill and never own your own dog!


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

My suggestion would be to start from the top of the list and watch the intros to clickertraining first then watch the rest of them.http://dogmantics.com/free-video-list/

Positive training isn't a thing you can't try a bit of it it has to be all positive.

This is also another really intresting video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgnLgHFRJu4

As for mental stimulation the options are endless. 

For Chief I hide his favorite ball downstairs turn the light off I make him sit and wait while I hide it and then say okay and he will run around sniffing trying to find it. Turning the light off makes it harder for him and his reward is when he finds the ball and lots of praise

Kong wobbler is another thing he loves I put some kibble, cheerios, cut up hot dog anything in there he likes and he bats it all over the house trying to get the kibble out he pants like crazy after he is done. There are a bunch of treat dispenceing toys that make the dog have to work to get their food.

The cup game. Three cups on the kitchen floor one treat under one I let him see which one at first then he run and knocks the one with the treat in it.

The Everlasting treat ball is his favorite trying to figure out how to get that treat out putting it in upside down makes it harder. I also put treats in between the flaps

Obedience training of course is mental stimulation 

Simple as giving a bone that's good to rawhides are not healthy they get to big of chunks off and can cause blockages. Elk antlers are a great choice they dont chip, splinter, there is no odar, and they dont stain. They are good for the teeth a healthy treat and they last a long time.Let them have it for a couple hours then pick it up

A kong is another good one. Some kibble, peanut butter, yogurt. Anything the dog really likes. Putting it in the freezer take even longer to get it all. They have a bunch of Kong recipies. 

http://www.kongcompany.com/recipes/

They also have doggie puzzles such as. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...og+puzzles&rh=i:aps,k:interactive+dog+puzzles

They make the dog think of how to get that treat. The one I am thinking of getting is the Dog Twister.

Or simple as putting a treat and letting them hit/poke at the one with the treat in it.


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## synm26 (Jul 26, 2012)

synm26 said:


> read below dont know how to delete post





kitley2001 said:


> Scott...I think you are really bored, and trying to pull one over on us. What kind of person admits on a dog forum, what you did, did not do, and your lack of feelings for dogs???? Trying to train this dog in two months, when your Mom had not trained him in 9 year is just nuts. Sounds to me like you have never liked this dog, and are bound and determined to show him that you are the boss. Find someone else to look after him for 2 months, or pay to have him kennelled. I wonder what your Mom would think if she read your posts. She asked you to watch him, not ruin and be mean to him. You seem to be quite unbalanced, or immature, or a combination of both. Take a pill and never own your own dog!


agree completely this whole tread makes me sad and know why so many dogs end up biting people


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

If you're seriously looking for an opinion and/or advice:
Opinion: Your dog is a dog, not a human, and what you did to her was, indeed, borderline abusive. So, yeah, too hard on her over something idiotic. 
Advice, I personally think you should rehome your dog. She deserves better.

This thread is a massive joke, IMO. Lol


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Canyx said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > Has their been studies that prove this? I have my doubts. I think the issue here is if she understands that dinner is being withheld because of her behaviour, she might learn something. This isn't the first time she's pulled something like this, I don't think just acting like everything is fine.
> ...


Well, I'm trying to train her. I'm trying to get her to realize that bugging me to give her a walk will generally result in the opposite; not getting a walk. I'm hoping that she figured this out. Although some people seem to have suggested that dogs can't figure out when they've done something that has displeased their caretaker, I don't agree with that assertion.



Canyx said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > I do walk her at around this time, but note the around part; it's at times a bit later, at times a bit earlier. I don't want to think that she can bully me into walking her on command. It's a tactic she seems to use to some extent with the small dog we have (she angers him, and he gives chase, which is what she wants him to do) and I don't want to be yet another sap. That, atleast, I can agree with. I just want her to understand how annoyed I get when she starts with her aggressive growls and looking like she's going to pounce on me. If I knew there was a better way I'd use it.
> ...


I would use the confine option if she was inside. Outside, it's a lot dicier; I'm not in the mood to try to grab a german sheppard that's barking and pouncing. Which is why I'm hoping she gets the message today that her whole pouncing thing may have led to not getting her walk.



Canyx said:


> If you yell or hit at her, she will have 'won' because she sucessfully got your attention.


I don't think it's the type of attention she was looking for. I'm pretty sure that what she wanted was her walk. She didn't get it, and I'm hoping that she's figured out why that may have happened.



Canyx said:


> When she starts getting growly and pouncy, what does she want? As you put it yourself: "She doesn't want to just "exercise", she wants -me- to be there."


On this, we agree completely.



Canyx said:


> What is the worst punishment for her? Being away from you. So 'punish' her by giving her a time out.


I kind of did, once she came back inside, which was actually almost immediately after our skirmish. I also really think she missed getting that 4th walk. Honestly, I don't think I'll ever understand this fascination dogs have with their walks .



Canyx said:


> Also, just so you know, many people walk their dogs 4x a day or more.


Do you?



Canyx said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > She's never been trained and I doubt she ever will be. I've been trying to train her to sit by pushing her rear down. It works... kind of. Today I did it maybe 7 times though... it almost feels like it's stopped working so well. Anyway, she's 9, and she's technically my mother's, who's left the country 2 months ago and won't be coming back for around another 2.
> ...


-.- Fine. I found this little guide:
http://www.wikihow.com/Teach-Your-Dog-to-Sit

Might work. I must admit that this might actually be fun for both of us, laugh .


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Unless you are 4 years old, that kind of behavior on your part is just kind of baffling. Punishing a dog for getting excited about going for a walk is just, well, indicative of a very immature personality, really.


-.- It wasn't a matter of her being excited to go for a walk. She does that when she's inside and she sees that I'm about to go outdoors. What she did outside was, in my view, calculated to induce me to walk with her even though I had no intention of doing so immediately.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

> Although some people seem to have suggested that dogs can't figure out when they've done something that has displeased their caretaker, I don't agree with that assertion.


Firstly, no one has said that dogs don't know when their owners are upset. The difference you make it known at the instant the bad behavior is happening, the dog will have no idea what made you upset, or that it was specifically their actions.



Scott75 said:


> -.- It wasn't a matter of her being excited to go for a walk. She does that when she's inside and she sees that I'm about to go outdoors. What she did outside was, in my view, calculated to induce me to walk with her even though I had no intention of doing so immediately.


In that case you ignore her until you are ready. That way she learns that she doesn't get what she wants unless you say so.

Seriously though, growling, barking, and "getting ready to pounce" (which I took to be a play bow) are all ways of saying "Hey! Let's play!". If you don't want to play with your dog, maybe you should find someone who does...


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Willowy said:


> She's totally not going to understand why you're not feeding her.


Maybe, maybe not. Anyway, I decided to put her food on her plate but she didn't touch it. I'm guessing this may be related to our skirmish and the fact that she didn't get her 4 oclock walk.



Willowy said:


> Have you sat down with her and had a nice talk about "now, if you bother me about walking, I won't feed you"?  That's really not a thing that works on dogs (yes, I've seen people try it. Doesn't work). How in the world is she supposed to connect her previous behavior with not eating?


All I'm hoping is she gets the notion that I don't like being bugged when I'm taking out the trash. If she gets that much, I'll be happy.



Willowy said:


> I imagine she doesn't like to be intimidated either.


She initiated the whole thing. I'm hoping she learns that if she does certain things she'll get me upset; I believe she doesn't really want to do that, and for her it's just a measure of how upset I get and whether it's worth the trouble. I'm hoping that today she's pondered the possibility that it's not worth this much trouble.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Scott75 said:


> -.- It wasn't a matter of her being excited to go for a walk. She does that when she's inside and she sees that I'm about to go outdoors. What she did outside was, in my view, calculated to induce me to walk with her even though I had no intention of doing so immediately.


I hate it when my dogs calculate stuff. They try to do my organic homework and my genetics problems, and their dang paws can't even use the calculator correctly.

Scott75 (Does that mean you're almost 40?) I think you may be anthropomorphizing a tad too much. Its a dog, not a 10 year old child with a new babysitter.


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## Bethl (Apr 30, 2012)

I must admit I'm a bit happy about this.. it makes me feel like she's suffering somewhat for the suffering she put me through... :fish:


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Bethl said:


> I must admit I'm a bit happy about this.. it makes me feel like she's suffering somewhat for the suffering she put me through... :fish:


heheheh the red herring gets me every time.

:flypig:


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Canyx said:


> Why don't you try walking her at a completely different time of day? It seems like she's accustomed to being walked a certain time, even if it you do stagger it a bit. And she's just excited for it to happen.


I don't think she's got an internal clock so good that she can actually tell the precise time I'm going to walk her, especially since I vary it a bit. However, if I'm going outside, this is frequently a sign that I'm going to walk her. Only today I had to take out the trash. Perhaps she assumed that if she bugged me, I'd get on to that walking with her business; I simply attempted to demonstrate that her actions were not helping her to get that walk out of me.



Canyx said:


> OR, when she gets riled up, ignore her till she calms down then, without any fuss, just clip the leash on and take her.


Inside, if she put up a fuss, I'd corral her into her section of the house and close the door. I think she really doesn't like that and I seldom have to do this now; I just have to -threaten- to do this, generally by doing certain speech patterns ("Don't push me Frida" or whatever) and she generally starts behaving. The only time when I tend to do this now is if someone's coming to the door and she does her barking routine. I just corral her while the person's here then release her when they're gone. But this is inside.

When she's outside it's a real dilemna, since she has no leash out there and she's way more agile then I am. She's also not used to a leash. That being said, I have an idea; the next time she tries this, I may try to leash her while outdoors and then drag her inside. Because of the fact that someone lost the good leash, if she really doesn't want to come in, she could yank on the leash in such a way that she'd pull her collar right off, but I certainly think that this is worth a try. Also, I am certainly thinking about getting a better leash again. I would have gotten one before but my mother was always going on about finding the harness that was lost and how it was so much money to get a new one. Anyway, the harness was never found.



Canyx said:


> That way she can't predict it, and she'll learn that being calm warrants walks, because at the VERY MOMENT she got her reward, she was calm.


In a way I kind of do this. Sometimes she'll be resting in her room, and the time comes and I go fetch her for the walk. But as I said, the problem is never when she's inside; it's when she's outside.



Canyx said:


> Also, I honestly don't care if your dog is being fed tonight. A dog can go an entire day without food and especially if she already ate breakfast and lunch, she won't miss her dinner.


Yeah, I definitely think she was far more interested in the walk then dinner now that she's ignored her dinner (I've put it away for tomorrow now) but still seemed to have been jonesing for the walk .



Canyx said:


> But I really hope you understand the logic behind why that won't dissuade her from 'bugging you' again.


I'm just hoping that she may have considered the notion that she lost her walk because of our little skirmish today.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Rescued said:


> I hate it when my dogs calculate stuff. They try to do my organic homework and my genetics problems, and their dang paws can't even use the calculator correctly.


Hahahaha. I wish Snowball would do my bio-statistics for me. Then I'd be famous for having a dog that could do statistics and I wouldn't *need* to finish school, lol.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

That is the same that as in the videos I posted. Reward for any motion to a sit. Don't make it to difficult at first or she will get frustrated. You need to reward the exact moment her but hits the floor. Staying in a sit doesn't matter at this point, but rewarding the exact second the behavior happens is the key and that's where the clicker comes in its a marker that say to the dog yes that's what I wanted and a treat is on the way, because if she sits then goes to a down and you reward. You are thinking you are rewarding for the sit, but in her mind you may be rewarding for the down.

It don't really matter how often you take them out its how long you stay out. I could have my dog out 10 times a day, but if I only stay out 5 minutes is that enough for a large breed German Shepherd with all this built up energy. They are super smart dogs and they need somewhere to release it

As for the dogs excitement for going outside. Look at it from the dogs point of view their smell is far superior to ours they can smell anything from really far away, they can hear stuff far away we can't hear. Sniffing the grass in general is mental stimulation the dog can gather tons of information about the animal that previously "went" there. It's all very exciting to the dog the sights, smell, and sounds.

Also it don't matter what type of attention you thought she wanted any attention is attention. Whether its mean or not attention can be as simple as even looking at the dog


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> Hahahaha. I wish Snowball would do my bio-statistics for me. Then I'd be famous for having a dog that could do statistics and I wouldn't *need* to finish school, lol.


Seriously struggling with orgo 2 right now. GAWD I put off this class as long as I could, and now its biting me in the rear. Emma certainly isnt doing much to help.

even though she should be GUIDING me in the right direction.

I think im just going to be a comedian. that was a good one.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Rescued said:


> Seriously struggling with orgo 2 right now. GAWD I put off this class as long as I could, and now its biting me in the rear. Emma certainly isnt doing much to help.
> 
> even though she should be GUIDING me in the right direction.
> 
> I think im just going to be a comedian. that was a good one.


I'm assuming that's org. chem? I also struggled with O-chem. If I recall correctly, on my second semester O-chem final I was the first person to leave the exam and got 15%. And passed (which was all I was hoping for...!)

@Scott75 - you can hope for whatever you want - that doesn't mean it will happen (and in this case, and with most of animal behavioral science backing it up, it probably won't...)


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

frillint said:


> I really don't even know what to say. You asked for help and we have given you tons of suggestions and all you have done is defended your previous actions


Maybe initially, but I have now taken some suggestions to heart.



frillint said:


> Do you think she was able to teach her dogs this by doing what your doing?
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTsw7RlmyJE
> 
> or him
> ...


No, laugh . What happened today is something that has been building for a while. I'd just had enough of it and I really tried to make this clear to her today.



frillint said:


> One of my dogs is 17 and I am still teaching him new things, so they are never to old.
> 
> Here's one on training sit/down/stand
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmhGsDl0OWI


I must admit that I found that video to be quite interesting. I might try something like that, atleast for the sit command.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Bethl said:


> Just curious..... do you believe in the alpha theory regarding dogs?


I think so, yes. That being said, I agree with what this guy says:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmhGsDl0OWI

Both for dogs and any other animal (including us human types ); positive reinforcement works pretty good and I also think that negative reinforcement is not the best tool. Also, because dogs can't just talk like us humans can, it requires just a tad more work to get them to understand what we're trying to tell them. I'm thinking it would have been nice to have seen that video a long time ago. But anyway, nice to have seen it now.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Canyx said:


> If you're afraid of being bitten, which is a valid concern, you should have her on a 6+ foot leash or a long line. So if she gets riled up you don't need to grab her collar, but simply pick up the other end of the leash and tether her somewhere until she calms down. Don't drag her, jerk the leash, talk to her, or even make eye contact as you do this. Just make it as matter-of-fact as possible. After a while approach her, and if she gets riled up again walk away. Eventually, when she is calm while you approach her, nonchalantly take the leash and go on the walk.


Mm, sounds like an idea. The trick is getting that leash on her when she's outside, but I can give it a shot.


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

A lot of the videos on those peoples pages I posted previously are very interesting and you can learn a lot. It might have been something that was just building, but I am sure you have scared her before screaming, yelling, stomping your foot, banging your hand on something, throwing anything at her, pretending to kick her or not, even just giving her a really mean look. It's all negative and intimidation and it will not help what you are trying to achieve it will only make it harder for your to train her and every time you intimidate her it will push that little success that you did have back, so keep that in mind when you really start working with her.

As for being outside you can just keep her on a really long leash. When I play fetch with Chief outside. I keep him on a 100ft leash. That way if he runs after something the leash is long enough I can just grab it or if I say come and he doesn't I can reinforce it by pulling the leash a little and having him walk towards me.

If you agree with him in that one you should watch this one to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEXQsYEaYcI


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Scott75 said:


> Mm, sounds like an idea. The trick is getting that leash on her when she's outside, but I can give it a shot.




The real trick is having her on the leash BEFORE she goes outside. So if she goes crazy outside you ALREADY have a point of control. 
Also, if going outside is the trigger, desensitize her to that by just spontaneously going outside and then right back in with her. Stagger the timing of it and make it as boring as possible, so that outside does not necessarily mean walk time.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Is it me, or has this dog never walked on a leash before? 

If that's the case, you can expect some leash training to do. 

I've walked with two adult shelter dogs that had never walked on a leash before: the first one went completely crazy, circling, jumping, biting the leash, he went out of his mind. The second one was overly happy and--because he outweighed me--pulled me wherever he wanted to go. In both cases I didn't know beforehand the dog had never walked on a leash before, I was only told afterwards.  My arms were not happy. Though I felt happy for the last dog, if only because of his own happiness. (his first time exploring the world) 

Anyway, you'll want to get the dog accustomed to the leash before you go for a walk. 

Also a tip: dogs that annoy can be (quite easily in my experience) cured by ignoring them completely. No punishment, just ignoring. That way the dog won't get anything out of bugging you and they will make the connection pretty quickly. If the dog is vying for your attention, remember: punishment is attention too. In other words, the dog will get reinforced in its behavior. Trust me; ignoring is the way to go. It will be difficult in the beginning, because the dog is used to getting what it wants and it has always worked before. So now, when the dog gets no response, it will be more persistent until finally, it realizes it simply doesn't work. What's important here is that YOU be persistant as well! If you give in even for a moment, the dog will have succeeded in its behavior. The one with the longest breath wins. 

For example: my dog Mike (a fully grown shepherd too, see signature below) gets excited before we go for walks too. So excited that, if we leave him be, he will pull us outside the moment the door opens. So we go to the hallway when he is calm and put his leash on. By then he gets excited again, so we ignore until he is calm, have him sit, open the door. He gets excited again with all the odors and sounds and sights from outside, so we wait. Until finally he sits calmly and directs his attention to us. We make eye contact and I calmly tell him 'come' and I walk outside, close the door behind me and walk away. 

The first times it took a long, LONG time to get him to calm down in the hallway. About 20 minutes. Now I have to wait for what, 2 minutes at most. And it works like a charm. I refuse to be pulled like a cart after a draft horse. I understand that Mike enjoys being outside, but I want to enjoy our walks too. 

From your posts, I sense a lot of resentment towards the dog. Please try to understand the dog. One cannot have 'arguments' with a dog. Don't attribute human thought processes to a dog. Though I'm the last person to say that dogs can't think, they can't reason like we can. They can make associations and learn from them, but only in the moment itself. If something happens at 1 AM and you get angry (or are still angry) with the dog two hours later, the dog will not make the connection that it did something wrong. 

Humans are special in the way that they can put themselves in another's shoes, sympathize, wonder 'what it would be like if...' 
So try to sympathize with your dog, put yourself in her shoes, wonder what it would be like if you were her. See yourself from her perspective. 
Look at her not as the being that you make her out to be, but as the being that she is. 

It would be wonderful if from the understanding that you gain, you'll come to enjoy her presence or even appreciate her being around. 
It's an awful situation where a dog is kept under the care of someone who dislikes it. You'd make the oncoming two months a much brighter time for both yourself and the dog if you could enjoy her presence instead of feeling so negative about her.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Training my German Sheppard*

As some of you know, yesterday I had made this thread:
http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/122809-had-argument-my-german.html

A lot of people commented on this, and I certainly made a lot of responses to the comments as well. Anyway, today is a new day, and I've come to think that what happened yesterday can only be avoided by training the dog to not do what she did.

There were a lot of comments made that I never got around to yesterday, so I'm thinking I should just pick up where I left off yesterday. So, here's my first response of the day to those comments...



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > She's never been trained and I doubt she ever will be. I've been trying to train her to sit by pushing her rear down. It works... kind of. Today I did it maybe 7 times though... it almost feels like it's stopped working so well. Anyway, she's 9, and she's technically my mother's, who's left the country 2 months ago and won't be coming back for around another 2.
> ...


The definition of fault is rather broad. I think I should try to point out 2 things:
1- I didn't buy this dog (that would be my sister's ex bf who did that, much to the chagrin of my sister), and it's now my mother's. I have no legal responsibility to train the dog at all. I'm trying anyway though.

2- I'm not sure that every bad dog behaviour is correctible, but even if that's true, and thus if I can't do it, it's because I'm not good enough to get it done, this doesn't mean that it's "my fault" in the sense that I'm not trying hard enough. Anyway, this is only the day after yesterday's incident, we'll see how things go.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Shepherds, especially, are very intelligent and handler oriented. If you want to train her, you can.


I agree that she seems to be very intelligent, which is why I've chaffed when people seemed to suggest that she couldn't understand anything of what I was trying to convey. That being said, I certainly agree that she thought she was doing the best thing to get what she wanted; the trick is to show her that there are better ways.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> But my impression is that you need to adjust - and significantly - your perspective on dog mindset and training.
> 
> Instead of pushing her bum down, hold the treat over her head so she has to lean back to reach it. Luring her correctly, which might take some time and patience, she should fall back onto her bottom. Even if it's brief or barely, reward with a "good girl!" and give her the treat. Repeat, repeat, repeat. Then add the "sit" command as you lure her. Eventually, you can phase out luring and then phase out treats.


Nods. I believe frill should me a video on this technique. I agree that this will take some patience but it could be very rewording. No one has really taught her to do anything so I'd be the first . 



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > Trying on the sit as I've mentioned. But you need to have incentives/dis-incentives.. maybe I should give her a treat when she responds to sit or something?
> ...


I must admit your dog seems to be pretty well trained. I wish I could get my dog to do anything for the toss of a tennis ball, laugh . Maybe one day.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> My advice? Step back for a moment and realize that you're anthropomorphizing your dog to a huge degree, and that does no good for either of you. As silly as this may sound, realize that she is a simple animal. She generally lives and thinks for the joy of the moment. She's not manipulating you on some deep level.


I think you're wrong, very wrong. Her plans for world domination are coming to fruition even as we speak :spy: Seriously though, I know she's not a human (which I at times find quite frustrating, as it'd be swell if I could just explain what I find so irritating about some of her behaviours in human language), but I also think that there are times when she knows that she's annoying me, she just thinks that it's the best thing to do anyway. 



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> If you're serious about dealing with her issues, you'll have to be patient and positive.


Mm..


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Everyone, I'd like to say thanks to most of you for your comments. Many of them have certainly made me think a fair amount. And I must admit that it's really cool to be able to have people to talk to about the dogs I take care of, as trying to figure out what to do without help can be immensely frustrating. Anyway, my argument with my dog was yesterday. However, many people here made comments that I didn't get around to yesterday, and I still wanted to respond to a good many of them. However, I think that that this thread has outlived its usefullness; my argument with my dog was yesterday, after all.

So I've decided to create a new thread where I intend to respond to many people that I couldn't get to yesterday:
http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/122969-training-my-german-sheppard.html#post1289945

I've already responded to this post from Kirsten&Gypsy.


----------



## jax's_mommy (Oct 13, 2012)

Scott75 said:


> She's never been trained and I doubt she ever will be. I've been trying to train her to sit by pushing her rear down. It works... kind of. Today I did it maybe 7 times though... it almost feels like it's stopped working so well. Anyway, she's 9, and she's technically my mother's, who's left the country 2 months ago and won't be coming back for around another 2.


Ok, I don't normally step into this sorta conversation stuff. But I gotta put my input on this.

German Shepherds are REALLY smart. If you are willing to put the effort in, and truly want her trained. She can be trained. Doesn't matter how old she is. I had a GSD that was completely trained (Sit, Down, Stay, Heel, Come, and fully housebroken in 1 day.) He was only a 8 month old fully hyper puppy that came from a home that didn't want anything to do with him. I never used any type of force or any type of punishment on him. 

As for sit, instead of pushing the rear down, hold a treat, or toy, in front of her than move it up above her head, she should automatically sit on her own. Then reward her for doing so. Its as simple as that. Do it more than 7 times though, do it until you know she has it down pat.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



frillint said:


> The barking and pouncing really sounds like play to me to.


I think she knows from past experience that I don't like that type of play. On my mother's watch, she would often do this when my mother got out of the house. I've always speculated that she was trying to ensure to walk her instead of going off with the car somewhere. I can't currently drive the car that's here (I'm not insured on it), but I get the feeling that old habits die hard and so this may have been why she did it. Or she wanted me to walk her instead of taking out the trash. 



frillint said:


> My boy barks all the time when hes excited and doing the play bow and jumping all over he is a German Shepherd as well and when I rescued him he was all kinds of mess up from abuse mental and physical I am still dealing with the mental issues it is no fun at all. Give her more mental stimulation she may tire more from that.


Well, I know that she loves barking up a storm when she finds some rodent or whatever and is trying to scare it out of its hideout and I'm fine with that. Sometimes though, I think she barks to get my attention, and I'm not so keen on that one. As to mental stimulation, what did you have in mind?



frillint said:


> Yes, German Shepherds are known velcro dogs the second I even move to resituate on the couch if he even thinks I might be getting up he flys right over to me and follows me back in forth into the bathroom everywhere.


That definitely sounds like Frida, laugh . My mother doesn't mind this, but unfortunately, I don't like this type of thing at all. I manage as best I can but the pouncing thing I can't stand.



frillint said:


> He didn't get anything when he didn't eat. He didn't eat because he wasn't hungry.


I think she wanted to get her walk before she ate. I've made it a pretty routine thing that I'll walk them, then feed them. I think what she may have been trying to say is, I want my walk first.



frillint said:


> You should look into calming signals the does does to you to calm you down and things you can do to calm the dog down. There are many books out there that will help you understand the dog more. One that was recently suggested to me is The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson. I have ordered it and am awaiting delivery.


I'm not exactly flush with cash; I'm hoping I can cover my bases online for now. 



frillint said:


> German Shepherds are the best breed in my opinion they are so loyal, obedient with the right training, protective, the learn quick, and are so willing to please. Training and teaching tricks are so much fun. Once you get out of your mindset and watch the videos of the people I posted you might have fun with him in seeing what you can get him to learn


I believe I agree with you. She seems like a dog that is eager to learn things, it's just that no one has ever really tried to do that. So I guess I'll try.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



synm26 said:


> than why agree to take care of a dog...right there bad idea


Someone suggested that I pay to have someone to take care of her, but I don't have the money for that. As to how things are here at the hobby farm: my mother, my sister, her 2 daughters and I live in my mother's house. I've been here for 3 years, my sister and nieces maybe 2. My sister doesn't do dog walks. With my mother and my nieces gone to Mexico for a while, there's no one else here to take out the dogs. My sister goes out a lot too, so her dog is frequently home alone in his section. My sister's daughters should be coming back today, but they don't walk Frida. The younger daughter walks Bailey (a yorkshire terrier), frequently under duress, but it's nowhere near what I do for the little guy. When she walks him, it's frequently just up the driveway, down the driveway. I let the little guy go whereever he wants, sniff most things (I let him sniff pee despite the fact that no one else does, I draw the line at excrement), so long as it doesn't involve me trying to make my way through bushes and other rather difficult things for me to get through. That being said, I've begun to think that Frida's feeling neglected. It's ironic, but the fact that I don't have her on a leash means that I follow Bailey, not her. I've begun to think that I'm going to put the leash on Frida and just take her out alone today. The first time I put her on the leash she actually didn't mind it; a problem only arose when I let her wander into some bushes and got tangled up; out of habit, I just let her go where she pleased because usually there's no leash on her and she can manage, but that time was clearly different.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



kitley2001 said:


> Scott...I think you are really bored, and trying to pull one over on us. What kind of person admits on a dog forum, what you did, did not do, and your lack of feelings for dogs????


My lack of feelings for dogs? I walk my mother's dog and my sister's dog 4 times a day, for up to 40 minutes a stretch. I feed them meat that I eat myself (that was -not- easy to accomplish, took a lot of doing on my part). I just don't like being intimidated into walking a dog when I don't want to walk a dog.



kitley2001 said:


> Trying to train this dog in two months, when your Mom had not trained him in 9 year is just nuts.


My sister did actually take her dog to training, it didn't work out so well. As to Frida, I don't think anyone's trained her and she may never get any paid for training. You want to come here and train them, be my guest. In the meantime, I'm the best shot they've got at training. 



kitley2001 said:


> Sounds to me like you have never liked this dog, and are bound and determined to show him that you are the boss.


I wouldn't even move in to my mother's house until she agreed to let me feed her human grade food instead of that awful dog food. I buy a fair amount of her food as well; generally organic, as I don't trust the antibiotic, hormone infested meat that most people feel is just fine. Since I've taken over her feeding, she's gotten a lot slimmer. She may still be overweight to some extent, but god I wish I had pictures of how she was when I got here to do the before and after. Now this doesn't mean that I don't have issues with Frida. I clearly do. But to say that I never liked this dog is completely untrue.



kitley2001 said:


> Find someone else to look after him for 2 months, or pay to have him kennelled.


You know someone who's willing to take her up here, they'd just have to pick up the food here since I have no car I can drive here, and with my mother's permission, she'd be all theirs. I don't have the money to have her kennelled.



kitley2001 said:


> I wonder what your Mom would think if she read your posts. She asked you to watch him, not ruin and be mean to him.


I know that my mother isn't a fan of the snowball training method -.-. That being said, I think she'd agree that she's got some nasty behaviours. My mother isn't a fan of her barking and pouncing routine either, but she just puts up with it. I don't want to just put up with it, so I'm working on trying to change it.



kitley2001 said:


> You seem to be quite unbalanced, or immature, or a combination of both. Take a pill and never own your own dog!


I'm not particularly keen on owning my own dog; it's a lot of work and (depending to some extent on the size) money and I have a lot of things in my own life that I need to work on. That being said, I wonder if you have any idea how bad some dog owners are. I used to have some neighbours (this was in a city) who had 2 dogs that seemed quite nice when they arrived as puppies. I *never* saw them being taken out for a walk. They barked every day, quite frequently. My guess is they wanted more of a life then a little corner to bark their lives out. I pitied those dogs, but there really was nothing I could do for them.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



frillint said:


> My suggestion would be to start from the top of the list and watch the intros to clickertraining first then watch the rest of them.http://dogmantics.com/free-video-list/
> 
> Positive training isn't a thing you can't try a bit of it it has to be all positive.


I don't know about that. I don't think that dogs are incapable of understanding when you're upset with them. That being said, I cetainly believe that it's best to focus on the positive, not the negative.



frillint said:


> This is also another really intresting video
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgnLgHFRJu4


That is a rather interesting video. When I get upset with Frida, she frequently does the "looking away" thing. I never realized that she was in effect trying to calm *me*, laugh . I think it worked to some extent anyway :bounce: Anyway, it reinforces the notion that she gets that I'm upset atleast.



frillint said:


> As for mental stimulation the options are endless.
> 
> For Chief I hide his favorite ball downstairs turn the light off I make him sit and wait while I hide it and then say okay and he will run around sniffing trying to find it. Turning the light off makes it harder for him and his reward is when he finds the ball and lots of praise


That's pretty funny, laugh . Around how much time do you spend a day playing with him? Also, would you include your time walking him as playing?



frillint said:


> Kong wobbler is another thing he loves I put some kibble, cheerios, cut up hot dog anything in there he likes and he bats it all over the house trying to get the kibble out he pants like crazy after he is done. There are a bunch of treat dispenceing toys that make the dog have to work to get their food.


Interesting.



frillint said:


> The cup game. Three cups on the kitchen floor one treat under one I let him see which one at first then he run and knocks the one with the treat in it.


That's funny, heh .



frillint said:


> The Everlasting treat ball is his favorite trying to figure out how to get that treat out putting it in upside down makes it harder. I also put treats in between the flaps


You say everlasting but I'm guessing he does actually figure out how to get it out after a time .



frillint said:


> Obedience training of course is mental stimulation
> 
> Simple as giving a bone that's good to rawhides are not healthy they get to big of chunks off and can cause blockages. Elk antlers are a great choice they dont chip, splinter, there is no odar, and they dont stain.


We give her pig/cow bones uncooked, that's alright no?



frillint said:


> They are good for the teeth a healthy treat and they last a long time.Let them have it for a couple hours then pick it up


She keeps her bones outside, she's got quite an assortment, laugh .



frillint said:


> A kong is another good one. Some kibble, peanut butter, yogurt. Anything the dog really likes. Putting it in the freezer take even longer to get it all. They have a bunch of Kong recipies.
> 
> http://www.kongcompany.com/recipes/


I see...



frillint said:


> They also have doggie puzzles such as. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_n...og+puzzles&rh=i:aps,k:interactive+dog+puzzles
> 
> They make the dog think of how to get that treat. The one I am thinking of getting is the Dog Twister.
> 
> Or simple as putting a treat and letting them hit/poke at the one with the treat in it.


Hm. Well definitely a lot of ideas here...


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



gingerkid said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > Although some people seem to have suggested that dogs can't figure out when they've done something that has displeased their caretaker, I don't agree with that assertion.
> ...


I think she knows. She generally doesn't do this whole pounce thing with me, she does it much more often with my mother, complete with loud barks, because she knows how I react. Yesterday was definitely the biggest skirmish we've had, but it certainly wasn't the first. I just think she decided it was worth starting it anyway and then things escalated from there.



gingerkid said:


> In that case you ignore her until you are ready. That way she learns that she doesn't get what she wants unless you say so.


Well, she didn't get her walk so I'm hoping that taught her something. The 4 oclock walk is the last walk of the day as it starts getting dark at around 5.

Anyway, this morning, I got a leash on her and we did a circuit: west up the driveway, south down to the quanset, west to the barn and then back north to the home. I was a bit nervous wondering how she'd react after not having walked her with a leash for a long time, but she was fine . Afterwards, I took the leash off of her, put the leash on Bailey and took them both outside. I don't let her get too close to Bailey as I think she would do the whole pounce routine with him a lot, as he responds exactly the way she wants; he gives chase and then she's got a running partner.. or she would if I let her, but at any rate, she's doing that "playing" thing that I don't want to be part of. She still likes her walks though.. she just gets impatient with Bailey because unlike Frida, Bailey frequently likes to route around in a small area, whereas she likes to roam. Not always though, sometimes we travel quite a distance. Actually this brings up another point, this time concerning the little guy (Yorkshire Terrier); he frequently likes munching on grass. Is this ok? I frequently stop him after a bit and I'm constantly wondering, should I let him or shouldn't I? Or if I do, for how long?



gingerkid said:


> Seriously though, growling, barking, and "getting ready to pounce" (which I took to be a play bow) are all ways of saying "Hey! Let's play!". If you don't want to play with your dog, maybe you should find someone who does...


I'm not going to be going door to door looking for someone to play with her. Aside from the rather large distances in this farmland area, and the fact that I'm not keen on knocking on stranger's doors, there's another thing; if she was a small dog like Bailey, it'd be one thing, but she's a german shepherd/something cross. Anyway, sometimes I let Bailey go ahead and do that play thing a bit, I find it rather irritating but as long as it doesn't get too bad, I let them do it a bit.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Rescued said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > -.- It wasn't a matter of her being excited to go for a walk. She does that when she's inside and she sees that I'm about to go outdoors. What she did outside was, in my view, calculated to induce me to walk with her even though I had no intention of doing so immediately.
> ...


Laugh 



Rescued said:


> Scott75 (Does that mean you're almost 40?)


37 to be precise -.-



Rescued said:


> I think you may be anthropomorphizing a tad too much. Its a dog, not a 10 year old child with a new babysitter.


I certainly miss the ability to use human language to communicate with, that's for sure. Anyway, whether or not my mother is here, I'm generally the one who walks her outdoors. My mother's just generally good company indoors. If she's here all day, she does tend to walk her atleast once though, sometimes even doing the forest path which takes about half an hour atleast. The thing is, even when she's living living here, she tends to go out a lot. Before I arrived, she would be quite upset with my mother every time she'd go for a while, but now I'm here, so she gets to bug me instead .


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Bethl said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > I must admit I'm a bit happy about this.. it makes me feel like she's suffering somewhat for the suffering she put me through...
> ...


Right, right, the dog is an innocent lamb, incapable of understanding how much she irritates me sometimes -.-


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



gingerkid said:


> Hahahaha. I wish Snowball would do my bio-statistics for me. Then I'd be famous for having a dog that could do statistics and I wouldn't *need* to finish school, lol.


Laugh . Not all calculations have to involve school subjects though. Sometimes I don't think people give enough credit to the ability of dogs to be quite sly .


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



frillint said:


> That is the same that as in the videos I posted. Reward for any motion to a sit. Don't make it to difficult at first or she will get frustrated. You need to reward the exact moment her butt hits the floor. Staying in a sit doesn't matter at this point, but rewarding the exact second the behavior happens is the key and that's where the clicker comes in its a marker that say to the dog yes that's what I wanted and a treat is on the way, because if she sits then goes to a down and you reward. You are thinking you are rewarding for the sit, but in her mind you may be rewarding for the down.


As long as she's not standing sometimes I'm happy, laugh . The only reason I don't want her standing sometimes is that when she's standing she has the tendency to move.. frequently in my direction where she then proceeds to rub against me and all, which could be fine if I wasn't allergic to dogs, but I'm not.. and besides frequently she'll at that point starting smacking her lips, which is generally a sign that she wants something; walk, eating, maybe a belly rub, whatever it is, the whole thing annoys me -.-. I give her walks, feed her and give her belly rubs, but I don't like being pressured into it. In general the time that I definitely don't want her to be standing up is when I'm getting my boots on to take her and Bailey on a walk.



frillint said:


> It don't really matter how often you take them out its how long you stay out. I could have my dog out 10 times a day, but if I only stay out 5 minutes is that enough for a large breed German Shepherd with all this built up energy. They are super smart dogs and they need somewhere to release it


Well, the advantage of living on a farm is that she could in theory be out there quite a bit. And sometimes she certainly does stay out after I finish walking Bailey and that -can- be ok.. except in days like yesterday, where she's there to pester me when I take out the trash. Because while she may at times like to do the solo walk thing, in general she wants me to be there as well.



frillint said:


> As for the dogs excitement for going outside. Look at it from the dogs point of view their smell is far superior to ours they can smell anything from really far away, they can hear stuff far away we can't hear. Sniffing the grass in general is mental stimulation the dog can gather tons of information about the animal that previously "went" there. It's all very exciting to the dog the sights, smell, and sounds.


Yeah I guess so.



frillint said:


> Also it don't matter what type of attention you thought she wanted any attention is attention. Whether its mean or not attention can be as simple as even looking at the dog


She's definitely an attention hog, laugh .


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



gingerkid said:


> @Scott75 - you can hope for whatever you want - that doesn't mean it will happen (and in this case, and with most of animal behavioral science backing it up, it probably won't...)


What probably won't happen?


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



frillint said:


> A lot of the videos on those peoples pages I posted previously are very interesting and you can learn a lot.


Alright.



frillint said:


> It might have been something that was just building, but I am sure you have scared her before screaming, yelling, stomping your foot, banging your hand on something, throwing anything at her, pretending to kick her or not, even just giving her a really mean look. It's all negative and intimidation and it will not help what you are trying to achieve it will only make it harder for your to train her and every time you intimidate her it will push that little success that you did have back, so keep that in mind when you really start working with her.


The problem is that in yesterday's case, as well as others, she's doing the intimidation first. In general, I manage it without getting into a snowball fight with her, but every once in a while she gets beyond what I'm willing to tolerate. Now consider that my niece walks Bailey at times. I hope you can understand how a dog of her size doing what she does could affect a 9 year old? Let's just say that she has at times asked me to keep Frida inside when she walks Bailey and I've honored her request.



frillint said:


> As for being outside you can just keep her on a really long leash.


The main problem is that we have 2 dogs and they both want to go on walks; and I'm not about to do 8 walks a day. As to having them both on leashes, I've tried that, didn't work out so well. I suppose I could keep on trying it, but I have a feeling that the solution can be obtained without having a leash on Frida so much. I think she's a very intelligent dog, I keep on thinking that there must be a way of managing this without leashing her much. Someone here said that a leash wasn't necessary, I'm hoping that this is the case.



frillint said:


> When I play fetch with Chief outside. I keep him on a 100ft leash. That way if he runs after something the leash is long enough I can just grab it or if I say come and he doesn't I can reinforce it by pulling the leash a little and having him walk towards me.


I might try that at some point.. she was positively docile when I had her on a leash this morning. Ofcourse, I didn't bring the other dog with us. Maybe I'll try to have them both on a leash for their 11 oclocker. We'll see.



frillint said:


> If you agree with him in that one you should watch this one to
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEXQsYEaYcI


An interesting video. I certainly agree, for instance, that a dog eating a meal before I do is no big deal. Sometimes I eat first, sometimes she eats first. That being said, I frequently put her in a section apart from the dining table, as there are few things I dislike more then being asked for seconds. After we've eaten, I tend to do the dishes. Once I'm done the dishes, I let her back into the kitchen and generally proceed to my room.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Canyx said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > Mm, sounds like an idea. The trick is getting that leash on her when she's outside, but I can give it a shot.
> ...


True. Actually, I think it could be said that my strongest point of control is my feeding her, as well as opening the door for her to go out. I tend to walk, then feed. As I give her 3 meals a day and there are 4 walks, though, I think she gets the impression that on atleast one of the walks, she doesn't have to come back in. Regardless, I know that at times she doesn't come back in. And I'd be fine with that -if- it weren't for the fact that sometimes she seems to sit out there with the expectancy that the longer she sits out there, the more likely it is that I'll come back out for another walk. Ironically, ofcourse, there is some truth to this; as I walk them every 2 or so hours during daylight time, if she sits there for 2 hours (and she has at times) then I'll be out again with Bailey for the next walk of the day. However, sometimes I think that during some of those long waits, she gets frustrated and she vents her frustration on me when I finally come back out. I fully admit that there is some speculation on my part here, but I haven't seen anything that rules out these speculations either.



Canyx said:


> Also, if going outside is the trigger, desensitize her to that by just spontaneously going outside and then right back in with her. Stagger the timing of it and make it as boring as possible, so that outside does not necessarily mean walk time.


This might be hard to accomplish. She has become extremely accustomed to the notion that me going outside with her almost guarantees going for a walk. That being said, yesterday this wasn't the issue; she was -already- outside. I just happened to go outside at that moment. I continue to think that she gambled on the possiblity that if she annoyed me enough, I'd take her for a walk. As mentioned before, this may seem to work with my mother and it certainly works with Bailey, so I'm thinking she thought she'd give it another try on me.


----------



## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

Dude, just find your dog a new home.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Avie said:


> Is it me, or has this dog never walked on a leash before?


No, she has, just not often. As mentioned here, today I decided to give it another go and it was fine. Ofcourse, I didn't walk the other dog at the same time.



Avie said:


> If that's the case, you can expect some leash training to do.
> 
> I've walked with two adult shelter dogs that had never walked on a leash before: the first one went completely crazy, circling, jumping, biting the leash, he went out of his mind. The second one was overly happy and--because he outweighed me--pulled me wherever he wanted to go. In both cases I didn't know beforehand the dog had never walked on a leash before, I was only told afterwards.  My arms were not happy. Though I felt happy for the last dog, if only because of his own happiness. (his first time exploring the world)


Glad you survived to tell the tale, laugh . In my case, both dogs have the potential to be happy.. it's just that I worry when they get too close to each other. Put simply, the yorkshire terrier can go absolutely ballistic if another dog gets too close to him. He's fairly used to Frida, but she knows that getting near his face tends to send him through the roof and sometimes I really believe she gets near his face precisely to send him into a frenzy so she can "play". I think my biggest worry is that they tangle the 2 dog ropes, but the last time I walked both of them together it seemed to be ok. Then again, I had my niece with me, and she was walking the little guy.



Avie said:


> Anyway, you'll want to get the dog accustomed to the leash before you go for a walk.
> 
> Also a tip: dogs that annoy can be (quite easily in my experience) cured by ignoring them completely. No punishment, just ignoring. That way the dog won't get anything out of bugging you and they will make the connection pretty quickly.


I don't believe in ignoring harassment. That being said, I can certainly withhold walks.



Avie said:


> If the dog is vying for your attention, remember: punishment is attention too. In other words, the dog will get reinforced in its behavior. Trust me; ignoring is the way to go. It will be difficult in the beginning, because the dog is used to getting what it wants and it has always worked before. So now, when the dog gets no response, it will be more persistent until finally, it realizes it simply doesn't work.


If this was a little dog, it'd be one thing. The problem is her size. To be blunt, I think she can be a dangerous animal to ignore. I could, however, withhold walks from her. I mean outside by the way; I'm not afraid of her inside, as there are places to confine her if she's bad and she knows this.



Avie said:


> What's important here is that YOU be persistant as well! If you give in even for a moment, the dog will have succeeded in its behavior. The one with the longest breath wins.


If the solution is to withhold walks, I can certainly do that. I will not tolerate her getting in my face outside though.



Avie said:


> For example: my dog Mike (a fully grown shepherd too, see signature below) gets excited before we go for walks too. So excited that, if we leave him be, he will pull us outside the moment the door opens. So we go to the hallway when he is calm and put his leash on. By then he gets excited again, so we ignore until he is calm, have him sit, open the door. He gets excited again with all the odors and sounds and sights from outside, so we wait. Until finally he sits calmly and directs his attention to us. We make eye contact and I calmly tell him 'come' and I walk outside, close the door behind me and walk away.


Well as mentioned, when I put the leash on her today, she was quite calm. Boringly calm actually. The walk was pretty dull too.. honestly I don't mind her racing around, I just don't want her doing the bounce/bark thing. Perhaps if she does this during one walk, the next one should be a leashed walk? Do you think that might do it?



Avie said:


> The first times it took a long, LONG time to get him to calm down in the hallway. About 20 minutes. Now I have to wait for what, 2 minutes at most. And it works like a charm. I refuse to be pulled like a cart after a draft horse. I understand that Mike enjoys being outside, but I want to enjoy our walks too.


Frida did give a big tug at the beginning but I think that's just because she had to pee. After that, she was fine. Now that I see that this leash thing isn't so bad, I'm thinking I'll take her out at night on a leash; my biggest fear of taking her out at night is at times she stays out for hours barking; if she's on a leash though, I can just bring her back inside.



Avie said:


> From your posts, I sense a lot of resentment towards the dog. Please try to understand the dog. One cannot have 'arguments' with a dog.


Why not?



Avie said:


> Don't attribute human thought processes to a dog. Though I'm the last person to say that dogs can't think, they can't reason like we can.


How do you know?



Avie said:


> They can make associations and learn from them, but only in the moment itself. If something happens at 1 AM and you get angry (or are still angry) with the dog two hours later, the dog will not make the connection that it did something wrong.


I was angry with her at the time it happened and she lost out on her walk because of it (which was also going to happen right after I took out the trash). While I had initially considered not giving her her supper, I did eventually do so after pretty much everyone here thought that not giving it to her wouldn't change anything.



Avie said:


> Humans are special in the way that they can put themselves in another's shoes, sympathize, wonder 'what it would be like if...'
> So try to sympathize with your dog, put yourself in her shoes, wonder what it would be like if you were her. See yourself from her perspective. Look at her not as the being that you make her out to be, but as the being that she is.


I think I try to do that. My biggest concern is that I don't want to teach her that she can bully her way into getting walks when she wants them.



Avie said:


> It would be wonderful if from the understanding that you gain, you'll come to enjoy her presence or even appreciate her being around.


I *do* like her being around. I just don't like the pounce/bark thing.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



jax's_mommy said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > She's never been trained and I doubt she ever will be. I've been trying to train her to sit by pushing her rear down. It works... kind of. Today I did it maybe 7 times though... it almost feels like it's stopped working so well. Anyway, she's 9, and she's technically my mother's, who's left the country 2 months ago and won't be coming back for around another 2.
> ...


What does GSD stand for? Anyway, I'm not dealing with a puppy, but I do believe that she can be trained. I meant that I don't think she'll ever get any professional training, but I can certainly train her to some extent and have been trying a few things recently.



jax's_mommy said:


> As for sit, instead of pushing the rear down, hold a treat, or toy, in front of her than move it up above her head, she should automatically sit on her own.


Tried it, no effect. That being said, I think she understands sit, especially if I wave my hand in a downward motion. The problem is that while she may do it for a second, she's frequently back up again the next second. But atleast it's something.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



HollowHeaven said:


> Dude, just find your dog a new home.


First of all, it's not really my dog, it's my mother's. And second of all, I'm fairly certain that everyone in my family knows that I'm the one who takes care of her more then anyone else, and that's especially true for when my mother isn't here, which is a fair amount of the time. I may not be the best dog babysitter in town, but I charge absolutely nothing (in fact I buy some of her food) and I'm fairly sure she'd be pretty sad to see me go.


----------



## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

Then you arenot using a good enough reward trying to get her to sit. As i saif before it doesnt matter if she stays in the sit as long as you mark and reward her as soon as her butt hits the floor. You can proof it later right now you just need to get her to understand that butting her butt to the floor gets her a treat. Go buy a clicker they are cheap then charge the clicker. Thats done to give the clicker meaning click treat click treat over and over not even asking her to do anything just keep clicking and treating. as she is looking away from you and you click if she looks at you as if to say wheres my treat shes got it, then you can start marking the sit.

I do spoil my dogs i love them to death. I dont think about how long i play with th. I just do it then quit fr a bit and do something else. The dog will let you know if shes bored. Be creative

If walking them together dont work then dont do it . Simple. It will be less stressful to you both if you would just listen to the dog

The dog doesnt understand why you mad she just knows you mad for something. She can tell this by your body language, your eyes, and your tone of voice. Dogs can sense things such as there are dogs that are trained to warn btheir owners of an on coming seziure so the owner can sit down so they dont get hurt. They can sense the changes in your body/mood, but they do not understand a certain reason for you being upset.

GSD stands for German Shepherd Dog.

You can just be with the dog if that's what she likes. You like reading books? Tie her to a tree outside and just sit out with her while you read, just spend time with her. You don't have to do stuff 24/7.

Petting a dog is good for both of you it's a stress reducer or love hormone as some say. It helps you bond with your dog and it releases oxytocin.


----------



## Ak9trainer (Jan 10, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

Hiya Scott,
I thought I'd jump in and give my 2 cents. I work professionally with problem dogs, and I'm not here to give you advice. I STRONGLY believe that in order to give applicable/effective advice, there has to be a full consult/eval/assessment. 

With that being said, here is what I think. There are alot of variables to your situation and no matter how hard we try to convey the whole picture, it never comes across quite right online. There are many dog enthusiasts who have many opinions of dog training/behavior and its easy to end up in the rhetoric when some someone or a group of people decide on one thing. I've been there myself. 

I think it's important to take others ideas with a huge grain of salt since that is the case here. Maybe its appropriate to study the different methods, and choose one and stick to it. Make a plan of exactly what you WANT. Its very easy and common for people to get stuck on the mindset of what they don't want the dog to do, and this prevents people from making progress. 

I'm constantly checking in with myself when I run into a problem in training and ask myself if I'm making excuses to why its not working instead of planning my work and working my plan.


----------



## beretw (Sep 25, 2012)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Ak9trainer said:


> Make a plan of exactly what you WANT. Its very easy and common for people to get stuck on the mindset of what they don't want the dog to do, and this prevents people from making progress.


THIS!

It is FAR more effective in the long-term (well, and in the short term) to positivwly teach the dog what to do, as opposed to punishing and disciplining the "wrong" behavior. 

Be your dog's educator, guide, and caretaker. If the dog is acting in a way that does not agree with you, the fault lies with you for not properly communicating and incentivizing the RIGHT behavior. 

Dogs are not furry people. They are animals. Human concepts of morality do NOT apply here.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

I've merged this thread with your other one, as it makes no sense to start another thread responding to posts in the other one, and is too confusing for new people who haven't read the other thread. In the future, unless you have a new, separate topic or question, please keep all posts in one thread, rather than posting multiple threads on the same topic.

Thank you.


----------



## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

All i can say is while training and even when your not make sure you praise your dog we are to quick to say no bad dog and always point out what bad things they did or will do and not quick enough to praise them when they are being good or laying nicely on the floor or being calm or doing good in the training session.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I've merged this thread with your other one, as it makes no sense to start another thread responding to posts in the other one, and is too confusing for new people who haven't read the other thread. In the future, unless you have a new, separate topic or question, please keep all posts in one thread, rather than posting multiple threads on the same topic.
> 
> Thank you.


The subject has changed. The original subject was that I had an argument with my dog, the new one was training my dog. I'm fine with combining them though, because the training is really the thing that I want to continue, but could you change the title of the thread to "Training my German Shepherd"?


----------



## Ak9trainer (Jan 10, 2013)

Well I replied on the other thread. There is way too much dialog to keep track of anyway!


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Scott75 said:


> The subject has changed. The original subject was that I had an argument with my dog, the new one was training my dog. I'm fine with combining them though, because the training is really the thing that I want to continue, but could you change the title of the thread to "Training my German Shepherd"?


When you start your thread by responding to posts from the old thread, then the subject has NOT changed.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> When you start your thread by responding to posts from the old thread, then the subject has NOT changed.


I'm sure you've heard of a thread being derailed? I just like making a new thread before that happens. Anyway, here's to hoping that you'll change the name of the thread as we're no longer talking about what I did yesterday.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Scott75 said:


> I'm sure you've heard of a thread being derailed? I just like making a new thread before that happens. Anyway, here's to hoping that you'll change the name of the thread as we're no longer talking about what I did yesterday.


I'm sure you're aware that that is a decision for the mods to make? The thread was not derailed, it progressed and evolved, as threads generally do. Making a new thread that references and responds to posts made in the old thread will result in the threads being merged.

I'd also advise against continuing to argue a mod's decision, as that is a violation of forum rules, and can result in disciplinary action if continued.

Thanks.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I'm sure you're aware that that is a decision for the mods to make?


Yeah.



Kuma'sMom said:


> The thread was not derailed, it progressed and evolved, as threads generally do. Making a new thread that references and responds to posts made in the old thread will result in the threads being merged.


Didn't mind the merging part, it's the clinging to the old name that I didn't like. But like you said, it's the mods' decision.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

frillint said:


> Scott75 said:
> 
> 
> > jax's_mommy said:
> ...


Cooked organic ground beef not good enough? Man my dog is putting on some airs -.- But like I said, she seems to kind of get it when I say sit.. maybe I can just skip the treat thing.



frillint said:


> As i said before it doesnt matter if she stays in the sit as long as you mark and reward her as soon as her butt hits the floor. You can proof it later right now you just need to get her to understand that butting her butt to the floor gets her a treat. Go buy a clicker they are cheap then charge the clicker.


I actually started simulating a clicker type sound before I even started these conversations.. it seems to be doing ok. She seems to get the sit thing, and it may be that the reason she didn't go for the ground beef this morning is that she was anxious to take a pee. I'll try it again today I think.



frillint said:


> Thats done to give the clicker meaning click treat click treat over and over not even asking her to do anything just keep clicking and treating. as she is looking away from you and you click if she looks at you as if to say wheres my treat shes got it, then you can start marking the sit.


Ok..



frillint said:


> I do spoil my dogs i love them to death. I dont think about how long i play with them. I just do it then quit for a bit and do something else. The dog will let you know if shes bored. Be creative


The problem is that these dogs are frequently bored. I think they need some more toys. Anyway, my nieces are coming back today, that'll help with Bailey anyway .



frillint said:


> If walking them together dont work then dont do it . Simple. It will be less stressful to you both if you would just listen to the dog


It actually generally works out fine, the hardest part is usually just making sure that Frida doesn't try to rouse Bailey into chasing her from the get go. Plus there's the fact that I'm not going to be doing 8 walks a day.



frillint said:


> The dog doesnt understand why you mad she just knows you mad for something.


I think she may be able to atleast guess what got me upset. I think this may be the reason that she doesn't do that pounce thing on me nearly as often as she does it on my mother.



frillint said:


> GSD stands for German Shepherd Dog.


Ah, ok.



frillint said:


> You can just be with the dog if that's what she likes. You like reading books? Tie her to a tree outside and just sit out with her while you read, just spend time with her. You don't have to do stuff 24/7.


It's a little cold to be outside reading books right now, laugh . I live in Canada and while the snow is currently melting a bit today, it's still fairly cold. The thing is though that unless we're doing a walk, being with her is not really my thing; she tends to want my attention a lot when she's mobile (as opposed to resting) and I'm not really one for that. I do give her a few belly rubs/pets a day though.


----------



## Ak9trainer (Jan 10, 2013)

Hey Scott,
Have you tried play training, drive training or structured walks? Shepherds love to work, and if not given a job and something to focus on, they usually decide on really irritating pushy behaviors. Those methods tend to work great with dogs like that, and that way you can get her impulses under control.


----------



## Ak9trainer (Jan 10, 2013)

I think this training would be a perfect fit for you guys. Kevin Behan has his own style and it works GREAT for the kind of dog you're describing. Hes also got great videos on youtube.
http://naturaldogtraining.com/about/


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LOL, the "be the moose" guy! I have no idea if his methods work but the way he describes them is sure entertaining! 

Anyway, you seem hung up on whether or not she understands that her behavior makes you upset, hours after the behavior has occurred. Let's say it this way: say you go to Japan. You don't know Japanese, except a few words here and there ("dinner", "walk", etc.), and you don't understand Japanese culture. You do something that they find totally offensive, but you don't know what it was (or only have a vague idea of what they didn't like) and you don't understand what they're yelling at you. Hours later they're still upset, you can tell, but you aren't really sure why. Is it what you did earlier? Did you do something else offensive? Or are they upset about something else? You have no idea, so you can't change your behavior to please them because you don't know what behavior to change. 

This is why "Culture Clash" is a good book. It explains why dogs don't quite understand what we're trying to tell them, and how to communicate so they do understand.


----------



## Ak9trainer (Jan 10, 2013)

His methods work very well on some dogs. I've used it on several occasions with certain dogs, mostly shepherds like the one described.


----------



## jax's_mommy (Oct 13, 2012)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Scott75 said:


> What does GSD stand for? Anyway, I'm not dealing with a puppy, but I do believe that she can be trained. I meant that I don't think she'll ever get any professional training, but I can certainly train her to some extent and have been trying a few things recently.
> 
> 
> 
> Tried it, no effect. That being said, I think she understands sit, especially if I wave my hand in a downward motion. The problem is that while she may do it for a second, she's frequently back up again the next second. But atleast it's something.


 GSD is German Shepherd Dog, just shortened up. She doesn't have to be a puppy to train though, I was just using him as an example, since he was the only experience I had with the breed. From research I've done on the breed (which I did a lot when I was younger because that was my favorite breed, and I wanted to be prepared for when I got one) They want to learn, they strive to please their owners (i know she belongs to your mothers) Make learning fun for her, don't get upset with her. If it becomes frustrating, walk away and leave it be for a while then go back and continue.

I wish you the best of luck with her, and hopefully it'll all work out.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

I thought I'd include a pic of Frida, the German Shepherd in question . I just took this pic, she was actually snoring with eyes closed (not sure she was actually asleep though, she's a sly dog ), but she heard me sneak up with my iphone and gave me this pose...


----------



## Monsteroyd (Sep 18, 2012)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

She's cute. She has my sympathies. 

]Monty[


----------



## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

That's exactly why I suggested that book earlier in the conversation. I haven't read it yet I'm waiting on its delivery, but have heard nothing but good things about it.



Willowy said:


> This is why "Culture Clash" is a good book. It explains why dogs don't quite understand what we're trying to tell them, and how to communicate so they do understand.


She is very cute!

Dogs dog need and want attention, maybe she's acting out because of the lack of attention. Reading a book was just an example. If she likes fetch or frisbee you can play that outside with her and it will be good exercise for her and minimal for you. You need to get the her understanding what your thinking out of your head that is not true and these actions with her will continue if you don't change your thought and completely try something different as apparently what you are doing now is not working. Not one thing works with every dog you may have to try something different to train a specific behavior such as sit there are a bunch of ways to train it and train it reliably its not her piratically getting it either she understands the command or she doesn't and if she doesn't you need to back up a step and try again.

Well if you wont do what the dogs need to get along and have them walk good and enjoy their walk together you can expect no success. You can watch youtube videos on how to walk multiple dogs calmly at one time.

You should not skip treats or you wont get anywhere the dog needs an incentive to do what you ask then you can gradually fade out the treat and give one randomally.

It may seem like a good treat to you, but maybe she wants something different to work for.

Yes, mind get bored to and tha'ts why I give them something to do with some of the toys I suggested in a previous post. I have drawers and drawers full of toys. I don't leave them out all the time I rotate them, so when they see the toy again they are like omg what is that something new and not the same old thing thats always laying on the floor. You can find toys cheaper on amazon that in the petstores if you look, just make sure you get the right size.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Scott75 said:


> I thought I'd include a pic of Frida, the German Shepherd in question . I just took this pic, she was actually snoring with eyes closed (not sure she was actually asleep though, she's a sly dog ), but she heard me sneak up with my iphone and gave me this pose...


There may be some German Shepherd in there, but that dog looks to be about half husky. Has she been shaved?


----------



## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

I agree I definatly see some husky, still cute. Huskies are definatly crazy hyper. They are known as escape artists and most know to never let them loose as they will run and run and run, but my other dog is husky/shepherd mix and hes the smartest dog I know and I can let him off the leash and he wont go anywhere. He is 17 now, but when he was younger he would find a way out of a fence no matter what.



Crantastic said:


> There may be some German Shepherd in there, but that dog looks to be about half husky. Has she been shaved?


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

Hmm. So much has taken place since I visited this thread!

Part of the issue(s) in my opinion is, although you say you understand she's a dog and not a person/child (and, really, of course, you do, I'm not trying to say you REALLY think she's a person), you make some statements that imply that you are expecting more human type behavior and reasoning skills out of her.

For instance, you say, quite often, that, during the "argument" she "started" the intimidation. Someone else here said you can't really argue with a dog. And, that's true. An argument involves a heated discussion about who's right. A dog wants what they want, when they want it. They don't have opinions or positions about which to argue. 

If you find her intimidating, that, in my opinion, all stems from the fact that this dog isn't trained (by your own admission, and, hey, it's not your dog, so you weren't responsible for training her before). A dog isn't just trained tricks, they are trained what is acceptable and what isn't, they are trained how to have good dog manners. And, that doesn't have to be done by a professional. This dog hasn't had that, so, she will do what she wants when she wants to, as she hasn't been taught otherwise.

She's a dog. And, the pouncing and barking, while you don't like it, is standard dog speak for "I want to play." Most dogs do this or something similar when they want to play. It's common. If she does this at times when you are not able to, or don't want to play, you can teach her a command to get her to stop. The easiest thing is to as her to perform a command that is incompatible with pouncing. So, when you get a few commands down, like sit, or lie down, you could tell her sit when she starts pouncing. If she performs the command, then she will obviously stop pouncing. Bingo.

However, if performing an incompatible behavior like sit takes care of the pouncing for a second, it doesn't mean she won't go right back to it. So, further distract her by giving a second command, like lie down, or just giving her a toy or puzzle or treat dispenser, to give her something better to do besides going right back to pouncing. 

My point is, if you start to teach her some of these commands, sit, lie down, leave it, drop it, etc., you can shape her behavior, so that if she starts behaving in a way that you don't find appropriate at that given time, you can interrupt that behavior by getting her to follow your directions to do a command.

And, yes, incentives are important. To learn commands, or proper behavior, you have to do hundreds of repetitions, really, before you can expect it to be consistent, and before you can expect her to do it automatically, without being offered the treat. In other words, lots of practice, with treats, then you can gradually start weaning off treats.

Incentives and other reinforcers really do have to happen right away. They really do. Dogs have short attention spans. 


I have noticed a difference in your more recent posts! That's good. It's good that you are thinking things through, and watching the videos and reading the advice.


----------



## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

Watch this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4794fn7ArGM

and this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyVjj7GhZbM

Heres a good link you can read on
http://www.clickertraining.com/whatis

There are three methods of training. Capturing, Shaping, and Luring.


----------



## nemefeme (Jan 10, 2013)

I know a lot of people were hard on you with this thread. But in order for you not to get defensive and try to correct her behavior, you have to maintain your patience. I had the same issue with my dog, Rambo. He'd wake me up early by whining, sometimes well before our scheduled walk and my boyfriend would spray him with a water bottle to stop. At first, it worked. But then I noticed his aggression rise in other areas, like when he was crated at bed time. He began to not care about the bottle and run away only to continue whining. I felt bad about letting him spay Rambo, so I stopped him from using the bottle. When he would jump or bother me about going out, I stood there. He'd jump and bark and go on, and in the beginning it lasted over 30 minutes. I'd wait until he tired himself out, then get him to perform a command like sit, give him a treat, and take him out. Over maybe four weeks, I did this. It was exhausting and time consuming; I'd lightly push him by the side of his neck when he would jump and continue to assertively stand and not acknowledge his impatience. It finally worked; we gets excited whenever I grab the leash but will wait for me to put it on. 

*EDIT* I stood with my hands on my hips. My "assertive" pose. I made it seem like I just went about my business, that wasn't the case. I just wasn't tending to the jumping. I'm late on this thread, I'm sure this has already been said. 

If you want to get some good, private in-home training, contact barkbusters.com. They have a lifetime guarantee and a one-time fee; they come to you and work on all of your dog's issues.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Scott75 said:


> I don't believe in ignoring harassment. That being said, I can certainly withhold walks.
> 
> If this was a little dog, it'd be one thing. The problem is her size. To be blunt, I think she can be a dangerous animal to ignore. I could, however, withhold walks from her. I mean outside by the way; I'm not afraid of her inside, as there are places to confine her if she's bad and she knows this.
> 
> ...


First, withholding walks will not help your case. You'll get a frustrated dog with pent up energy that will become even more annoying to you. 

Second, she's a pretty dog! I don't see much shepherd in her, but I do see husky. And huskies are known for their need to exercise and social interaction. (play!) 

Third, this isn't about that ignoring would only work with a little dog. I have a large dog. Large. Capital L. That has nothing to do with it. We've had a hyper small Jack Russell over at ours for two weeks, a dog that had been potty trained and that's it. We've accomplished so much with simply ignoring bad behavior and showing her what we want to see. And that didn't involve getting 'into arguments' with her. 
This has nothing to do with size. 

Fourth, Doxiemommy explained pretty well why you can't have arguments with a dog. 
You physically cannot. Just like you can't have arguments with a rock. If I tripped over a rock and I got angry at the rock and I yelled at it: "Why rock? Why are you so annoying! Stop being so annoying!" I wouldn't get a reply. I'd feel a little crazy too. Just like I'd feel a little crazy if I yelled these words *replace rock with Mike* at my dog. I wouldn't get a reply from him either. He'd look at me liked I talked Chinese. Or, like an authority figure in dog training pointed out, like I talked Swahili. "Lete chai upesi, upesi!” Would you be able to respond to this? Could you have an argument with someone who spoke Swahili? Really? Do you think the argument would make sense? Do you think either one of you would learn something? 

Fifth, I'm glad she walks well on a leash. 

Sixth, and last, I'm genuinely happy you do like her around.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Ak9trainer said:


> Hiya Scott,
> I thought I'd jump in and give my 2 cents. I work professionally with problem dogs, and I'm not here to give you advice. I STRONGLY believe that in order to give applicable/effective advice, there has to be a full consult/eval/assessment.
> 
> With that being said, here is what I think. There are alot of variables to your situation and no matter how hard we try to convey the whole picture, it never comes across quite right online. There are many dog enthusiasts who have many opinions of dog training/behavior and its easy to end up in the rhetoric when some someone or a group of people decide on one thing. I've been there myself.
> ...


Interesting post. I think the key is determining why she engages in behaviours I can't tolerate, such as the pounce/bark thing and see how I can encourage her to not do this. I've seen a lot of people say that the trick is to ignore her and after doing a lot of thinking about it, I think they're right. It presents a rather unique problem in that I can't ignore her while she's outside; as mentioned before, she's a big dog and she actually frightens me to some extent. But I think I've come up with a working solution. If she starts with that stuff, I can go back inside for a minute or 2, then go back outside. If she does it again, I can repeat. I have a feeling that she'll catch on quickly as to what's making me leave the great outdoors and that she'll start to change her behaviour.

I know that this may sometimes be a bit more complicated when there's a car. I have frequently gotten the distinct impression that when I'm around a car the issue isn't just whether I'll walk with her but whether I'll hop in the car and take off for who knows how long. Of all the people in this family, I take off the most rarely and I'm generally back the soonest, but I'm fairly sure that she gets anxious when there's only one person she can see in the house (me in this case) and they're approaching a car. If I actually do need to drive somewhere, then I have had to fend my way to the car on rare occassions. Snowballs aren't necessary, but I do feel that lifting a foot can at times be necessary; people can wax eloquently about "borderline abuse", but if she lifts both of her front feet and rakes the air, the only thing I want near those claws are my boots/shoes. But ofcourse I'd prefer if the whole thing didn't happen at all. The other point I'd like to make is that she's quite agile. She's played with the goat, who could certainly injure her when it tries to ram her for annoying it, but she seems to think of it as a game. I imagine that it's the same way with me to some extent, atleast in the initial stages; one thing I know she doesn't like is the snowballs though; she's always hated people even holding on to snow for some reason, even if in general it does next to nothing to her even if it's thrown at her.

Anyway, I will try to be more tolerant of her shenanigans, while they can be annoying, building things up can be a lot *more* annoying .


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



beretw said:


> THIS!
> 
> It is FAR more effective in the long-term (well, and in the short term) to positivwly teach the dog what to do, as opposed to punishing and disciplining the "wrong" behavior.


That really does sound logical. Kind of like the saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I hope that I can manage this at some point.



beretw said:


> Be your dog's educator, guide, and caretaker. If the dog is acting in a way that does not agree with you, the fault lies with you for not properly communicating and incentivizing the RIGHT behavior.


I say it's my dog's fault for not speaking english . Seriously though, this assumes that I know how to properly communicate with her. You could, ofcourse, say that it's my fault for not knowing how to properly communicate with her, and I suppose that it could technically be true, but I think it's also true that world hunger could be eliminated if only enough people in power studied up on how to solve it. I think the way to look at this isn't to focus on who's to blame (dog or person) but rather to try to figure out how to fix the problem.



beretw said:


> Dogs are not furry people. They are animals. Human concepts of morality do NOT apply here.


I agree in part; I certainly agree that dogs frequently don't see eye to eye with their human companions on issues regarding morality. But then, most people don't have to sustain the things dogs have to sustain either, so I think it stands to reason.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

frillint said:


> All i can say is while training and even when your not make sure you praise your dog we are to quick to say no bad dog and always point out what bad things they did or will do and not quick enough to praise them when they are being good or laying nicely on the floor or being calm or doing good in the training session.


I agree. My human family frequently has times doing this actually, I don't think it's a coincidence that this can be an issue with our canine family as well. Baby steps I think. I'm thinking of starting a new thread chronicling the things I try to do to improve canine-human relations in our family .


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Ak9trainer said:


> Hey Scott,
> Have you tried play training, drive training or structured walks?


Never heard of any of these things . You have links?



Ak9trainer said:


> Shepherds love to work, and if not given a job and something to focus on, they usually decide on really irritating pushy behaviors.


Sounds like my german shepherd/husky mix .



Ak9trainer said:


> Those methods tend to work great with dogs like that, and that way you can get her impulses under control.


Definitely sounds good.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Ak9trainer said:


> I think this training would be a perfect fit for you guys. Kevin Behan has his own style and it works GREAT for the kind of dog you're describing. Hes also got great videos on youtube.
> http://naturaldogtraining.com/about/


The site references a book from Kevin called "Your dog is your mirror", is this what you're referring to? The concept of one's dog being one's mirror is a concept which I believed in before I read that title actually, although it gets more complicated when the caretaker duties are shared by more then one person.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



jax's_mommy said:


> GSD is German Shepherd Dog, just shortened up. She doesn't have to be a puppy to train though, I was just using him as an example, since he was the only experience I had with the breed.


Ok.



jax's_mommy said:


> From research I've done on the breed (which I did a lot when I was younger because that was my favorite breed, and I wanted to be prepared for when I got one) They want to learn, they strive to please their owners (i know she belongs to your mothers)


While she does technically belong to my mother, I take care of her a lot. And when my mother is away, which is rather often, I assume fully responsibility for her. She definitely tries to please me when she knows what I want and it doesn't conflict with what -she- wants. Our main point of contention I think is that she wants more attention then I give her and she's developed some irritating habits to accomplish this. I've definitely been giving her more attention since my mother's left as I feel she needs it, but I do draw limits and this can be an issue. But based on what people have been saying here, I've decided that when she wants more then I'm prepared to give, or when she's asking in the wrong way, the best solution is indeed to try to ignore her. Based on anecdotal evidence from today, I think it's working quite well. 



jax's_mommy said:


> Make learning fun for her, don't get upset with her.


I would like to make learning fun for her, but it can at times be really hard to not get upset with her. However, as mentioned, after thinking about it, I'm beginning to think that ignoring her when she's doing something I don't want really does tend to work best. Humans call this "the silent treatment", and thinking about it, it tends to work fairly well with humans too .



jax's_mommy said:


> If it becomes frustrating, walk away and leave it be for a while then go back and continue.


Yes, this definitely seems to be the best way to do it. Today, she started barking outside because she wanted me to go out for another walk. She's done this fairly often, which is why I've been hesitant to let her out sometimes. Well, this time I just ignored her. It worked; within 10 to 15 minutes, she wanted to come inside. Once she came inside, I took her and Bailey for a walk . I'm thinking this may get her to believe that it's easier to get her walk if she comes inside then if she stays outside barking, atleast that's what I'm hoping she's thinking.



jax's_mommy said:


> I wish you the best of luck with her, and hopefully it'll all work out.


Thanks


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Monsteroyd said:


> She's cute. She has my sympathies.
> 
> ]Monty[


I guess I'm the meany in the story for you eh ?


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Willowy said:


> ...you seem hung up on whether or not she understands that her behavior makes you upset, hours after the behavior has occurred. Let's say it this way: say you go to Japan. You don't know Japanese, except a few words here and there ("dinner", "walk", etc.), and you don't understand Japanese culture. You do something that they find totally offensive, but you don't know what it was (or only have a vague idea of what they didn't like) and you don't understand what they're yelling at you. Hours later they're still upset, you can tell, but you aren't really sure why. Is it what you did earlier? Did you do something else offensive? Or are they upset about something else? You have no idea, so you can't change your behavior to please them because you don't know what behavior to change.


I think that in this case it's simpler then that, because of the fact that she's done this pounce/bark thing and obtained similar results. However, something that someone else said made me think a lot; the idea that what she truly wants attention and my feeling that if an animal wants attention badly enough, even -bad- attention is something they want. This correlates with the fact that after our skirmish, she didn't really seem to be upset with me at all. -I- was the one who was still burning. She did, however, seem to get kind of anxious with the fact that the walk she was anticipating never materialized. I think she hadn't expected -that- to happen. I hope she connected the 2, but even if she didn't, she'd exhausted me and there was no way I was giving her a walk after that.



Willowy said:


> This is why "Culture Clash" is a good book. It explains why dogs don't quite understand what we're trying to tell them, and how to communicate so they do understand.


I've put it on my amazon wish list, hopefully one of these days.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

Was well on my way to finishing my reply then pressed some wrong key combination and all gone, laugh . Alright, once again...



frillint said:


> That's exactly why I suggested that book earlier in the conversation. I haven't read it yet I'm waiting on its delivery, but have heard nothing but good things about it.


Good to know.



frillint said:


> She is very cute!


Thanks 



frillint said:


> Dogs dog need and want attention, maybe she's acting out because of the lack of attention.


Yes, I think this is definitely a part of it. Another part is that she's got some mistaken ideas on how best to get my attention.



frillint said:


> Reading a book was just an example. If she likes fetch or frisbee you can play that outside with her and it will be good exercise for her and minimal for you.


This reminds me of an incident involving my niece and a family friend playing soccer and how both dogs wanted to participate (unfortunately for them, my niece did -not- want them to participate ). So I definitely think this idea has potential.



frillint said:


> You need to get the her understanding what your thinking out of your head that is not true and these actions with her will continue if you don't change your thought and completely try something different as apparently what you are doing now is not working.


I definitely agree that something had to change, and I've felt that part of the solution lies in ignoring her/leaving the scene when she's doing something I don't want her to do.



frillint said:


> Not one thing works with every dog you may have to try something different to train a specific behavior such as sit there are a bunch of ways to train it and train it reliably its not her practically getting it either she understands the command or she doesn't and if she doesn't you need to back up a step and try again.


I agree that practically isn't good enough, the key is repetition to some extent and also motivation.



frillint said:


> Well if you wont do what the dogs need to get along and have them walk good and enjoy their walk together you can expect no success. You can watch youtube videos on how to walk multiple dogs calmly at one time.


The fact that I don't have to leash Frida actually makes it a lot easier to walk both of them, as I don't have to watch her nearly as much. That being said, I think that Frida feels neglected because of it. 



frillint said:


> You should not skip treats or you wont get anywhere the dog needs an incentive to do what you ask then you can gradually fade out the treat and give one randomally.


I agree. I've actually realized that I am kind of doing this, only it's with meals; I get her to sit before I give her a meal.



frillint said:


> It may seem like a good treat to you, but maybe she wants something different to work for.


I'm not much of a cook and I'm frequently leery of commercial dog food treats. That being said, I know there are some natural ones. Ofcourse, another problem is getting to a pet food store; I need to rely on my sister for transportation and this generally amounts to a weekly trip to a health food store/normal grocery store and perhaps the bank. That being said, she has expressed interest in getting her dog some boots or something for the snow, so I imagine she may be amenable to going for toys and/or treats.



frillint said:


> Yes, mine get bored too and tha'ts why I give them something to do with some of the toys I suggested in a previous post.


Ok.



frillint said:


> I have drawers and drawers full of toys.


Geez, lol 



frillint said:


> I don't leave them out all the time I rotate them, so when they see the toy again they are like omg what is that something new and not the same old thing thats always laying on the floor.


That's pretty cool, laugh .



frillint said:


> You can find toys cheaper on amazon that in the petstores if you look, just make sure you get the right size.


Could you link one or 2 you think would be best? I'm thinking of adding them to my wishlist.


----------



## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

They have used books on there the one I bought was $4.00, not much considered the great information. Here's the thread on recommended reading http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/72111-reccomended-reading.html you might look that over.

There really isn't a best toy per se, it depends on what your dog likes. If she is very food or kibble motivated my husky shepherd loves his kong especially if its frozen, but my german shepherd wont eat it if its frozen. I think it being cold kind of freaks him out.

Here is where I recently ordered Chiefs first elk antler. I am excited to see how much he likes it. From people I have heard from letting them have it an hour or two a day can last 6 months. Chief is a super chewer I got him the 11in Whole piece. They don't have an website yet, but will soon. I ordered via paypal. You will just have to email for their prices ad sizes and such.

http://www.facebook.com/MTAntlerChews?fref=ts

I agree on not liking commercial treats. I only buy treats made in US. You can make your own treats at home they have simple recipes. My dogs favorite thing is homemade peanut butter treats.

Just look around on amazing interactive dog toys or treat dispensing balls. Or you can be creative use an empty container like a yogurt container or something tape the lid on and make big enough holes so the kibble will fall out when batted around, Just make sure you always supervise when you give them toys to make sure they dont eat choke or eat it.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Crantastic said:


> There may be some German Shepherd in there, but that dog looks to be about half husky. Has she been shaved?


No, she hasn't been shaved. I knew that she had something else in her, in fact that's one of the reasons that I posted the pic, I was hoping someone could tell me what that something was; I think you've just done that, thanks


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



frillint said:


> I agree I definatly see some husky, still cute. Huskies are definatly crazy hyper. They are known as escape artists and most know to never let them loose as they will run and run and run,


Fortunately we live on a farm so she can stay out as long as she wants, laugh . The annoying part is when she starts grunting and/or barking in an effort to get me to get out there too even when I don't want to.. like now, for instance . Usually I don't let her out after it gets dark, but my nieces arrived and one of them let her out so now we have this rather familiar situation -.-...



frillint said:


> but my other dog is husky/shepherd mix and hes the smartest dog I know and I can let him off the leash and he wont go anywhere. He is 17 now, but when he was younger he would find a way out of a fence no matter what.


Lol . I do believe they tend to not be so prone to run off as they get older. I had an alaska/collie mix in Mexico, she escaped from the house more then once, but in her last days, I did an experiment. I let go of the leash, and she followed along as if I was still holding it, laugh .


----------



## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*

He's been like this is whole life I could always let him off his leash and he would stay right by me no matter what was around. I didn't train this he just did it on his own. Was funny he would do all in his power to get out of the fence. Even figured out how to just unlock it, but when ever he got out all he would do was go around the house and sit on the front porch lol.

There is no reason to get exhausted over that just take deep breath and speak calmly to her. I think with all the great advice you have got here from a lot of people you should be able to accomplish something if done the way we suggested.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



doxiemommy said:


> Hmm. So much has taken place since I visited this thread!


Definitely . Been putting a lot of time into this, that's for sure.



doxiemommy said:


> Part of the issue(s) in my opinion is, although you say you understand she's a dog and not a person/child (and, really, of course, you do, I'm not trying to say you REALLY think she's a person), you make some statements that imply that you are expecting more human type behavior and reasoning skills out of her.
> 
> For instance, you say, quite often, that, during the "argument" she "started" the intimidation. Someone else here said you can't really argue with a dog. And, that's true. An argument involves a heated discussion about who's right. A dog wants what they want, when they want it. They don't have opinions or positions about which to argue.


They have body language, and I think she was using that. Some people here seemed to agree that this was possible. I also liked what many felt was the solution; to ignore her during bad behaviours. The more I thought about it, the more this made sense. Right now, she's trying to get my attention by barking outside, and I'm using the same technique . When she really wants to come in, she does a kind of pitiful sounding noise and she knows I let her in with that, right now I think she just wants attention .



doxiemommy said:


> If you find her intimidating, that, in my opinion, all stems from the fact that this dog isn't trained (by your own admission, and, hey, it's not your dog, so you weren't responsible for training her before). A dog isn't just trained tricks, they are trained what is acceptable and what isn't, they are trained how to have good dog manners. And, that doesn't have to be done by a professional. This dog hasn't had that, so, she will do what she wants when she wants to, as she hasn't been taught otherwise.


Agreed.



doxiemommy said:


> She's a dog. And, the pouncing and barking, while you don't like it, is standard dog speak for "I want to play." Most dogs do this or something similar when they want to play. It's common. If she does this at times when you are not able to, or don't want to play, you can teach her a command to get her to stop.


The thing is, I never want to play that way. The idea of having her fetch a ball sounds interesting though. 



doxiemommy said:


> The easiest thing is to as her to perform a command that is incompatible with pouncing. So, when you get a few commands down, like sit, or lie down, you could tell her sit when she starts pouncing. If she performs the command, then she will obviously stop pouncing. Bingo.


True, but she has to be motivated enough to want to do that. I think the real thing here though is for her to realize that what she's doing isn't going to get her what she wants by doing what she's doing. Once she realizes this I think it'll help immensely.



doxiemommy said:


> However, if performing an incompatible behavior like sit takes care of the pouncing for a second, it doesn't mean she won't go right back to it. So, further distract her by giving a second command, like lie down, or just giving her a toy or puzzle or treat dispenser, to give her something better to do besides going right back to pouncing.


Keep in mind that this is all happening outside. Inside, I think I can manage her enough. That being said, I would like to be able to have her sit on command, so will work on that.



doxiemommy said:


> My point is, if you start to teach her some of these commands, sit, lie down, leave it, drop it, etc., you can shape her behavior, so that if she starts behaving in a way that you don't find appropriate at that given time, you can interrupt that behavior by getting her to follow your directions to do a command.


Sounds good.



doxiemommy said:


> And, yes, incentives are important. To learn commands, or proper behavior, you have to do hundreds of repetitions, really, before you can expect it to be consistent, and before you can expect her to do it automatically, without being offered the treat. In other words, lots of practice, with treats, then you can gradually start weaning off treats.
> 
> Incentives and other reinforcers really do have to happen right away. They really do. Dogs have short attention spans.


Yeah, I do agree with that one .



doxiemommy said:


> I have noticed a difference in your more recent posts! That's good. It's good that you are thinking things through, and watching the videos and reading the advice.


Was always reading the advice as well as responding, it's just that I've had more time to think about some of the things that are being said .


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



frillint said:


> Watch this one
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4794fn7ArGM
> 
> and this one
> ...


Cool. I'd like to point out that I'm not persuaded that animals can't have human like characteristics at times, but I definitely believe in the clicker training ideas of positive reinforcement for good behaviours and negative reinforcement for bad ones.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

nemefeme said:


> I know a lot of people were hard on you with this thread. But in order for you not to get defensive and try to correct her behavior, you have to maintain your patience.


I like being defensive when I feel I'm being attacked in some way, whether it's by dogs or by humans, laugh . But yeah, patience is definitely important.



nemefeme said:


> I had the same issue with my dog, Rambo. He'd wake me up early by whining, sometimes well before our scheduled walk and my boyfriend would spray him with a water bottle to stop. At first, it worked. But then I noticed his aggression rise in other areas, like when he was crated at bed time. He began to not care about the bottle and run away only to continue whining.


This is exactly why I came to this forum. I found that my punishments were escalating the problem and I felt that it couldn't end well, but I simply had no idea what I could do instead.



nemefeme said:


> I felt bad about letting him spay Rambo, so I stopped him from using the bottle. When he would jump or bother me about going out, I stood there. He'd jump and bark and go on, and in the beginning it lasted over 30 minutes. I'd wait until he tired himself out, then get him to perform a command like sit, give him a treat, and take him out. Over maybe four weeks, I did this. It was exhausting and time consuming; I'd lightly push him by the side of his neck when he would jump and continue to assertively stand and not acknowledge his impatience. It finally worked; we gets excited whenever I grab the leash but will wait for me to put it on.


I think it was this comment of yours that made me think this was the solution. As with your dog, I don't think it's going to be easy. She's already lived for 9 years like this and is used to her way of getting things. But I think it's the only possible solution. Speaking of problems, Frida's still barking out there, close to my window ofcourse for maximum effect.. she can go on for hours -.-



nemefeme said:


> *EDIT* I stood with my hands on my hips. My "assertive" pose. I made it seem like I just went about my business, that wasn't the case. I just wasn't tending to the jumping. I'm late on this thread, I'm sure this has already been said.
> 
> If you want to get some good, private in-home training, contact barkbusters.com. They have a lifetime guarantee and a one-time fee; they come to you and work on all of your dog's issues.


Don't think I have the cash for that right now. But maybe one day.


----------



## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



Avie said:


> First, withholding walks will not help your case. You'll get a frustrated dog with pent up energy that will become even more annoying to you.


I'm thinking withholding the walk until she starts behaving. To be honest, she doesn't actually misbehave that much. Maybe once every couple of days I have an issue with her, but it's rare that she gets to me so much that I shorten or even curtail a walk.



Avie said:


> Second, she's a pretty dog! I don't see much shepherd in her, but I do see husky. And huskies are known for their need to exercise and social interaction. (play!)


The exercise she can get anytime she likes outdoors, but the social interaction part is definitely the thing I think she's been missing to some extent.



Avie said:


> Third, this isn't about that ignoring would only work with a little dog. I have a large dog. Large. Capital L. That has nothing to do with it.


I meant from my perspective, I don't care if a little guy yammers at me; what's the little guy going to do when all he can get at are my boots ? 



Avie said:


> Fourth, Doxiemommy explained pretty well why you can't have arguments with a dog.
> You physically cannot. Just like you can't have arguments with a rock. If I tripped over a rock and I got angry at the rock and I yelled at it: "Why rock? Why are you so annoying! Stop being so annoying!" I wouldn't get a reply. I'd feel a little crazy too.


I don't think it's quite the same. I liked the example someone put up, though, of going to japan and not understanding what they're saying or why they're offended. I will acknowledge that there can be times when she truly doesn't understand what she's done to upset me. I just don't think that this was one of them.



Avie said:


> Just like I'd feel a little crazy if I yelled these words *replace rock with Mike* at my dog. I wouldn't get a reply from him either. He'd look at me liked I talked Chinese. Or, like an authority figure in dog training pointed out, like I talked Swahili. "Lete chai upesi, upesi!” Would you be able to respond to this? Could you have an argument with someone who spoke Swahili? Really? Do you think the argument would make sense? Do you think either one of you would learn something?


Yes, I like the language barrier idea. But you frequently don't need to speak the same language with someone to understand body language. Especially if you've known them for several years.



Avie said:


> Fifth, I'm glad she walks well on a leash.


Same; it means I'll be able to take her out at night if it looks like she needs to take a pee .



Avie said:


> Sixth, and last, I'm genuinely happy you do like her around.


. We have our disagreements but if I don't see her on her couch for a while, I go to my mother's room to see how she's doing. Might even mean I miss her, you never know -.-


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

frillint said:


> They have used books on there the one I bought was $4.00, not much considered the great information. Here's the thread on recommended reading http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/72111-reccomended-reading.html you might look that over.


If you had to pick just one for my dog, which one would you pick?



frillint said:


> There really isn't a best toy per se, it depends on what your dog likes. If she is very food or kibble motivated my husky shepherd loves his kong especially if its frozen, but my german shepherd wont eat it if its frozen. I think it being cold kind of freaks him out.


Frida will munch on frozen stuff but she prefers unfrozen. Anyway, I'm thinking that if I got just one toy, it should be a kong, what do you think?



frillint said:


> Here is where I recently ordered Chiefs first elk antler. I am excited to see how much he likes it. From people I have heard from letting them have it an hour or two a day can last 6 months. Chief is a super chewer I got him the 11in Whole piece. They don't have an website yet, but will soon. I ordered via paypal. You will just have to email for their prices ad sizes and such.
> 
> http://www.facebook.com/MTAntlerChews?fref=ts


I'm wondering if I should go looking for elk antlers, we have some around these parts, laugh . What about cow/pig bones though? Nothing wrong with them, no? She certainly seems to like them, we have a lot of them too .



frillint said:


> I agree on not liking commercial treats. I only buy treats made in US. You can make your own treats at home they have simple recipes. My dogs favorite thing is homemade peanut butter treats.


Almond butter would be fine too wouldn't it? I don't like peanut butter, but I love almond butter .



frillint said:


> Just look around on amazing interactive dog toys or treat dispensing balls. Or you can be creative use an empty container like a yogurt container or something tape the lid on and make big enough holes so the kibble will fall out when batted around, Just make sure you always supervise when you give them toys to make sure they dont eat choke or eat it.


Mm.. I think I'll just get something that's made commercially, that way I shouldn't have to worry about making something that might harm her .


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

*Re: Training my German Sheppard*



frillint said:


> He's been like this is whole life I could always let him off his leash and he would stay right by me no matter what was around. I didn't train this he just did it on his own.


This was the german sheppherd/husky dog?



frillint said:


> Was funny he would do all in his power to get out of the fence. Even figured out how to just unlock it, but when ever he got out all he would do was go around the house and sit on the front porch lol.


Lol 



frillint said:


> There is no reason to get exhausted over that just take deep breath and speak calmly to her.


Don't think that'll stop the pouncing, laugh . But going inside for a bit when she does it might do the trick. Anyway, now she's barking away outside and I think there's nothing I can do other then wait for her to stop.. which may be in a few hours, but what can you do . 



frillint said:


> I think with all the great advice you have got here from a lot of people you should be able to accomplish something if done the way we suggested.


I think so too


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## frillint (Jul 12, 2009)

Thats just how I am going to teach him to touch as I will put treats inside and when he sniffs it I will click and give him a treat, since I cant teach it the way kikopup suggests, because when I try it her way he keeps trying to give me hi fives lol. Kongs are great get the Kong extreme. I think if she really likes chewing she will like the Everlasting treat ball to. Chief carrys it everywhere even going outside he will pee with it in his mouth when its time to poo he will sit it down nicley poo the pick it back up. It has different flavor disc you can put in both sides. Putting it in upside down is extremely hard, but it makes it harder for them to get it out, but I would just put it in normal at first if you got it for your dog.

I personally haven't read any of those books, so I couldn't suggest any, but am excited to read the Culture Clash and will let you know how it is after I do.

Having a variety of toys is best so she don't get bored or at least put different stuff in it, so its not the same old thing every time. My dog loves pig ears, but recently found out they are very unhealthy and nothing but fat. I bee told bully sticks are good and feeding certain raw bones from a butcher as a treat are really good, and the elk antlers. They are not that expensive I believe it was like $23 for an 11in whole piece, but for something that will last a long time with my boy is worth it he demolishes any bone I give him within an hour depending on what it is.

I think removing your self from the area when shes acting nutty is a great idea. She will soon realize by acting that way the thing that she wants disappears.

Yes, that was my husky/shepherd mix he will be 18 soon, so defiantly getting up there in age, but he is my complete world and I trained him all by myself.

It don't matter if you don't like it it matters if she likes it and she might really like it frozen in her kong. I actually just fixed one up for Smokey and put in in the freezer for tomorrow night that will keep him busy for probably close to 2 hours.


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## Scott75 (Jan 9, 2013)

frillint said:


> Thats just how I am going to teach him to touch as I will put treats inside and when he sniffs it I will click and give him a treat, since I cant teach it the way kikopup suggests, because when I try it her way he keeps trying to give me hi fives lol.


Wait, I'm not sure what you're referring to here.. how are you going to teach him to touch?



frillint said:


> Kongs are great get the Kong extreme. I think if she really likes chewing she will like the Everlasting treat ball to.


Hm, maybe I should get the Everlasting treat ball for starters, Frida definitely likes her chewing . The yorkshire terrier does too, but it says that it's recommended for dogs 40 pounds and up so thinking that one wouldn't be for him anyway.



frillint said:


> , so one each maybe.. hopefully they're not too expensive


Treat one is about 20 bucks... right now we've got some financial issues, I'm hoping they clear up soon.



frillint said:


> Chief carrys it everywhere even going outside he will pee with it in his mouth when its time to poo he will sit it down nicley poo the pick it back up.


Lol 



frillint said:


> It has different flavor disc you can put in both sides. Putting it in upside down is extremely hard, but it makes it harder for them to get it out, but I would just put it in normal at first if you got it for your dog.


Ok.



frillint said:


> I personally haven't read any of those books, so I couldn't suggest any, but am excited to read the Culture Clash and will let you know how it is after I do.


Thanks 



frillint said:


> Having a variety of toys is best so she don't get bored or at least put different stuff in it, so its not the same old thing every time. My dog loves pig ears, but recently found out they are very unhealthy and nothing but fat.


Good to know.



frillint said:


> I've been told bully sticks are good and feeding certain raw bones from a butcher as a treat are really good,


Yes, we've been feeding our dogs lots of raw bones that we keep in a freezer.



frillint said:


> and the elk antlers. They are not that expensive I believe it was like $23 for an 11in whole piece, but for something that will last a long time with my boy is worth it he demolishes any bone I give him within an hour depending on what it is.


Yeah, I think Frida's the same, fortunately we have a lot of bones, I give her one a day usually. I think Bailey is frequently more interested in burying his bones then actually chewing on them, but he definitely gets busy with it sometimes, laugh .



frillint said:


> I think removing your self from the area when shes acting nutty is a great idea. She will soon realize by acting that way the thing that she wants disappears.


. Oh, Frida finally came in from her barking thing and is now resting on her couch, laugh . 



frillint said:


> Yes, that was my husky/shepherd mix he will be 18 soon, so defiantly getting up there in age, but he is my complete world and I trained him all by myself.


Cool 



frillint said:


> It don't matter if you don't like it it matters if she likes it and she might really like it frozen in her kong.


If she likes it frozen, that's fine by me, laugh .



frillint said:


> I actually just fixed one up for Smokey and put in in the freezer for tomorrow night that will keep him busy for probably close to 2 hours.


Cool


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