# About crates



## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Do you leave adult dogs in the crate, when you are for work? How long would they stay inside?
How long do you leave your pups in the crate?
Why don't you leave the dog loose in the house?
Sorry for my english, i'm from Austria. In our country it's forbidden to crate a dog, only when they are transported. But some people use them for housebreaking.
I want to learn more about different opinions.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Our older dog isn't crated. We got him when he was 8 years old, and he was already housebroken. He doesn't get into things in the house or cause any destruction so it is safe to leave him out.

Our younger dog we got as a puppy. We used a crate to contain her when we left the house or when we weren't able to supervise at home. We used the crate mainly for potty-training (she won't pee in her crate) but also for containing her so she can't get into trouble - when she was a puppy she liked to chew on electrical wires, steal kitchen towels, etc. We went with a crate instead of an x-pen type set up because I have absolutely no doubts that she would've been able to break out of an x-pen. Now she is mainly left out, although she is crated when she gets bones, etc. to chew on to 1) contain the mess and 2) prevent food guarding between the dogs.

My foster dog is crated when we leave the house. She has separation anxiety and can escape from behind dog gates. When her anxiety causes her to panic, she digs at doors/walls/carpets so she is crated to prevent damage to our house.

Generally, I think crates and crate training are important tools. They aren't the be-all and end-all, but here in North America it is important for dogs to be comfortable in a crate because that is often how they are confined at the vet or groomers, so helping the dog be comfortable in a crate just helps to eliminate one of the sources of stress from an already stressful situation.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

I crate my puppy when I'm gone for work and drive home at lunch to let him out and exercise him. So he is crated for about eight hours a day with a 30 minute break between two four hour periods in the crate.

I cannot imagine having a puppy and not being allowed to use a crate. It makes potty training easier, it keeps the puppy safe from eating dangerous items, and it keeps a house safe from destructive chewing damage. At six months old my puppy was tall enough to reach on my kitchen counters, so unless I cleared every flat surface in my home, it would never have been safe to leave him uncrated during the day.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Thank you for your answer.
Some trainers here work with crates too, if the dog has separation anxiety or to calm working breeds down. But the goal is to at least ceep the door open.
The court had made the decission, that it's forbidden if a dog is crated more than one hour every day.
I can understand that it's easier with a crate. And some of your reasons.
But to leave a puppy 8 hours a day crated sounds pretty bad to me. If you wrote this in an european forum, everyone would tell you that you can't have a pup in this situation. People here would take an adult rescue dog who is already trained beeing alone or would give their dog to doggy daicare. Some take holidays, but 2 weeks would be much to short.
Why a puppy with 8 hours working? I think an adult dog is not happy with that too. More than 4 hours alone never


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Luxidog said:


> Thank you for your answer.
> Some trainers here work with crates too, if the dog has separation anxiety or to calm working breeds down. But the goal is to at least ceep the door open.
> The court had made the decission, that it's forbidden if a dog is crated more than one hour every day.
> I can understand that it's easier with a crate. And some of your reasons.
> ...


I was a graduate student working on my MSc when I got my puppy, so I worked from home a lot. You know what my dogs did when I was home? They slept.

I just can't wrap my head around the idea that people in Europe don't have puppies unless they are home full-time, but maybe that is actually how it is. I also volunteer 6-8 hours/week at the local shelter, and I can tell you with absolute certainty that the majority of dogs there are not fully trained. Many have very little training at all - most don't even know "sit".


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

You are right, some people take dogs although. I don't think that european people are better in having dogs.
But in dog forums there are writing people, that are thinking more about it.
My dogs are sleeping most of the day too, but they often change their sleeping places. And they are adult. A puppy was never alone before and has to learn it. Only because it's in a crate, it's not ok for it. 
Not all dogs in shelters are trained, but there are some who came from a family.
I think it's ok, if your dog is not the whole day alone, because you come home in between. But not a puppy and not crated. Sorry.
My dogs are crate trained too, because they should know it for longer transports or if they have to stay at the vet. The crates are always open and they like sleeping in them, but not always.
Puppies i had with me in the bed, so i woke up, when they woke up and took them outside.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Sorry for double posting..
Do you really get a dog from a breeder, saying him, that you'll go working tomorrow and it has to stay crated the whole day??
Or do you stay at home till it's trained? How long?
I really like your forum, before i thought most dog owners in the US are like the ones in cesar millans show. That they are never walk their dogs for example.
But i can't get the point to train the dog positively, but let it in a crate, till it stops whining and shuts down.
Also dogs with SA. They aren't less frightened in a crate? 
In some cases a crate might be usefull, but not for every dog? It seems to me that most dog owners can't imagine having a dog without crating it?
Some people here take a puppy when working the whole day, but because it's forbidden to crate them, they have to find other solutions. If you ask in a shelter or a responsible breeder you won't get a pup mostly even an adult dog, if you are working the whole day and don't have someone like a dogwalker.
For crates there are the same restrictions as for outdoor kennels, inculding enough space for each dog.
You can't think that it's okay for a dog living most of the day in a place just big enough to turn around, lie down and stand up?
Also in the morning.. Your pup wakes up, whole night crated, you let it out for 30 minutes and then lock it up again for 4 to 8 hours? I can't imagine a life like this, without completely shuting down.(learned helplesness, is this the right word in english?)
Sorry, i really want to understand you and different thinking and not just writing here and blame you.
Some time ago crates got modern here too and although it's forbidden some people use them for housebreaking. And this is discussed very much in our forums. But to put the puppy after the night in there again noone would dare to write, because you could loose your dog therefore.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Because sometimes even a bare room isn't safe for a destructive young dog









Ten minutes, that's it. While I took a shower. One of my early foster dogs, an untrained and unsocialized young pit bull who had more energy than almost any dog I have met. She was very close to biting into the nails in the door frame and ripping her mouth up, she could have swallowed dangerous pieces of metal and wood too.

Because when a dog goes to the vet for a surgery, he has to be in a crate or kennel and if he isn't used to it than it is a terrifying thing. Stress added to the stress of a physical pain is bad.

Because many hotels and vacation rentals require crating a dog when unsupervised.

Because some people have multiple dogs in a small house or apartment and it can be very unsafe to leave dogs loose together unsupervised.

Because dog sports and shows often require crating when a dog is not competing.

Because being used to a crate can make being in a boarding kennel easier if an owner must travel

Because the few emergency shelters (in case of tornado, earthquake, flood etc) that allow dogs require crates so it is a good thing for a dog to be comfortable in a crate.

Because some dogs will simply destroy what they can reach and a crate is safer and kinder than surgery to remove an object from their stomach or a dog dying from ingesting something dangerous. 

Proper crate training means associating the crate with treats and food, getting the dog used to the crate and comfortable with it, and helping the dog see it as a comfortable space.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

So no one from the working class in Europe should have a puppy? Or do the people who are working class and have jobs just go to work every day and hope their house isn't too destroyed?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There is an actual bias against people who work with puppies in areas of the world.

Likewise, some of those areas of the world are very pro outdoor dogs - fenced yard, access to the house, but where we crate indoors their dogs typically have run of the 'garden' or yard. 

It's just different, mostly. I refuse to get too up in arms about it, as an FYI. I crate. My culture and things I do with my dogs relies on that. If I were somewhere that the norm wasn't crating and crating wasn't so very necessary for many reasons I'm sure I'd feel differently I would also feel differently if my climate, wildlife, and other 'practical' considerations were different.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

At this stage I rarely crate my dogs. 

They're crated for meal times because there are five of them, they're crated for training seminars and dog sports events, and my youngest two are crated if we're going to be out for a long time because they Get INto Things That Could Kill Them. 

That said, I work from home and I can tell you exactly what they do during my entire work day: Absolutely nothing. That INCLUDES the BC, and the GSD mix, and the agility dog - it's not just the older pair. At the very most they move from one sleeping spot to another, but even that's rare. 

They know when fun happens and that's not the middle of a weekday.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

My view is that dogs do not have much agency when it comes to keeping themselves safe in a human oriented world.  As owners, we need to do whatever we can to help them be safe and successful in _our_ world, since we're the ones who are forcing them to live in it. And although dogs are not children, there are a lot of parallels to be drawn between the two: they're often not capable of identifying actions that are in their own best interest (at least not without a lot of help from adult humans) and they often make choices because they want something that turns out to be bad for them later (like dogs eating chocolate or chewing on electrical cords, or children skipping class because they don't like a subject*).

As owners, we should do everything we can to help them enjoy - or at least not be afraid of - the things that we need to get them to do in order for them to live in our world safely. But there is also a level of pragmatism involved; life almost never hands people the "ideal" situation for anything and I feel if you wait for all the conditions to be "ideal" you'll be missing out on a lot of exiting things.

*I recognize that I am simplifying things a lot here, but I hope that you can see the parallels that I am trying to draw.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I currently have two dogs, a Giant Schnauzer/Great Pyrenees mix and a 40 lb terrier mutt. The GS mix isn't crated, except for at agility class. The terrier mutt is crated when home alone. Her crate is an XL size (way oversized for her) with a bed in it, since it doesn't need to be size-restricted for housetraining.



Luxidog said:


> Do you leave adult dogs in the crate, when you are for work? How long would they stay inside?
> How long do you leave your pups in the crate?


She's there for 7-8 hours most weekdays, and for a few hours at a time other times. I could run home at lunch some weekdays to briefly let her out, but I checked with a cam and she just sleeps most of the day, so I think it'd actually be more disturbing to take her out for 20 min then put her back and leave again.



> Why don't you leave the dog loose in the house?


As she's gotten older (she's probably about 15+ now) she's gotten a little unpredictable - chewing things and acting tetchy with the other dog. I think her vision and hearing are going, and so she's acting out when startled or confused. So I crate her to prevent a dogfight from starting when I'm not home, or her chewing up and ingesting something that could hurt her. I could lock her in the bathroom or mudroom but she seems more comfortable in the crate, probably because it's not as isolating.

It's easy enough to say that someone shouldn't get a pup if they have to leave it all day, but what is one to do with an elderly dog they've had for over a decade? Crating is, to me, certainly preferable to rehoming in her twilight years, or risking injury.

I live in the wild near-arctic (rural interior Alaska) so fenced outdoors unattended isn't an option.

Under normal circumstances I prefer not to crate, but I do also make sure all my dogs are crated trained even if I'm not using one regularly, in case they need to be crated in an emergency situation, at the vet, when traveling, etc.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I can understand most of your reasons. Like the pitbull, that destroys everything, even in an empty room.

And i agree in crate training for every dog, because you can never know if it needs to feel comfortabel in it.

But i don't know many dogs, that destroy the house, if they are alone. Usually you train beeing alone, beginning with the puppy. Close the door, going to another room, coming back, so it becomes normal.

And to me it seems a bit cruel, if a (young)dog is in a place most time of the day, that is smaller than a recomended cage for a rabbit.

Working class people can have dogs here too, but they have to look for a solution that fits for the dog. A dog wants to be with his people, crated or not, i don't think it's good to leave him alone 8 hours a day.
You don't get a dog here, if you do so. Only from a puppy mill like breeder.

My dogs know too, that there is no action indoors and they are sleeping most of the day, but i think it's different to be crated, because they can move, if they want.

I just want, that you think about it and if it's really necessary for your dog. It's shocking that many people see it as normal for every dog. Adult and trained dogs normally destroy nothing and are safe loose in the house too.you can use a camara and watch what they are doing, if you don't trust them.

And i think there is a psychological effect, if an animal is locked up in a tiny place and has learned that there is no way out. Maybe they get SA from learning this as a pup and you can't leave them loose alone anymore in their whole live.

It's kind of sad, that a dog in a cage is normal in your culture and that so many people think it's the only way that is safe for a normal dog.

Sorry, i know you love your dogs too and don't want to do something cruel with them, when using a crate every day. Just think about it from a different point of view. Here it is forbidden and so many people have dogs too. I have never heared of a dog that got injured because of beeing alone at home. If a dog has problems with it, you train it. Some dogs need to be locked up in one room for a time, most young dogs too.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

gingerkid said:


> I just can't wrap my head around the idea that people in Europe don't have puppies unless they are home full-time, but maybe that is actually how it is.


Me either. I guess a lot of Europeans don't mentally include Russia or much of Eastern Europe when they say Europe, but my experience is that there are not a lot of qualms about these things in that part of the world. Although I suppose my people might be among the more rustic Slavs, lol.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Luxidog said:


> Sorry, i know you love your dogs too and don't want to do something cruel with them, when using a crate every day. Just think about it from a different point of view. Here it is forbidden and so many people have dogs too. I have never heared of a dog that got injured because of beeing alone at home.


I'll tell you what, I'll not crate my old girl during the day, if you promise to pay any vet bills that arise from it.



> If a dog has problems with it, you train it. Some dogs need to be locked up in one room for a time, most young dogs too.


How is it less restrictive to be locked alone in a room? In the case of my house layout, it is more restrictive to close off in a separate room than to crate; at least in the crate she can still interact in a limited way with the other dog, and observe what is happening around her.


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## Prozax (Aug 26, 2014)

parus said:


> Me either. I guess a lot of Europeans don't mentally include Russia or much of Eastern Europe when they say Europe, but my experience is that there are not a lot of qualms about these things in that part of the world. Although I suppose my people might be among the more rustic Slavs, lol.


Eastern Europeans also have negative feelings when it comes to crates. They're not illegal here, but they are also not common at all. I personally consider them a great training tool and I am using one with my current adult adopted dog.
Doing training with your own dog in not that common and while people will not leave their dog in a crate they have no problems walking them offlead in the city thus getting them killed and just replacing them with another. Even keeping a prong collar on a dog at all times is very much the norm, but downright refuse the idea of a dog in a crate.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I'm writing mostly about Austria, Germany.. Middle and North Europe.

Prong and Electric collars are forbidden too, except police dogs.

I have no problem leaving an old dog in a crate, if it's the only possibility. My former dog had epeleptic episodes( do you say it like this?), because i'm working at home i was able to stay most of the time with her, or a other member of my family. I couldn't let her alone with my other dog.
Therefore a crate is usefull, if the dog is feeling less seperated than in another room.

Leaving a young dog in only one small part of the house is not forever. Only till he is trained.

I'm not against crates! There are situations where they are usefull. But not every day for most of the day the whole life of a dog!

I have a wolfdog, leaving her alone wasn't easy and took a long time and a lot of work. But everyone knows that wolfdogs can have problems with it, i wouldn't have adopted her, if i had to leave the house when she was a puppy for a long time.
I also knew that this dogs tend to destroy things. So i made everything dog safe and looked after her. Although she destroyed some things, but i never thought about crating her for hours!

We made crate training, therefore she was sometimes in it, but just a short time and only if she was okay. Not whining till she stopped hopeless..
Whats positive if doing this? When you take a pup and have to go to work the next day, you can't tell me it's enough time to train it in a way the dog don't want to leave it for hours.

Our laws for pets aren't very strict. Many people use crates for puppies in the night.
A case like this came to the court and they spoke with scientists and made resarch on it, because the law wasn't clear about it. I read it again and the decission was that it's forbidden to crate the dog 4 hours, 3 times a week and more.

Sorry my english isn't good enough to discuss this the way i would like to. Maybe it sounds more rude to you as i mean it.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I have adult dogs who are crated when we are gone. My dog and my house is safe when they are crated. I've had people who don't approve of crates say "the dogs just sleep anyway". That is true so why no sleep in a crate? For adults, their crates are way bigger than needed.


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## Prozax (Aug 26, 2014)

InkedMarie said:


> I have adult dogs who are crated when we are gone. My dog and my house is safe when they are crated. I've had people who don't approve of crates say "the dogs just sleep anyway". That is true so why no sleep in a crate? For adults, their crates are way bigger than needed.


I have the day off today so I'm home. My dog has been sleeping in her crate since breakfast with the door open. That's about 4 hours now. She is allowed on furniture. Between two couches and two huge dogs beds she chose her crate. She won't even get out when I go past it. This is why I don't feel bad that she is crated a couple of work days a week for the full 8 hours.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Others have discussed why crating can be a useful option for some dogs. I have one dog who was trustworthy almost from day one; she doesn't need to be crated. I have another dog who I don't imagine ever will be trustworthy even with training; he is crated when left alone, otherwise I'm confident he would injure himself.



> You can't think that it's okay for a dog living most of the day in a place just big enough to turn around, lie down and stand up?





> And to me it seems a bit cruel, if a (young)dog is in a place most time of the day, that is smaller than a recomended cage for a rabbit.


You do realize crates come in different sizes, right?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> You do realize crates come in different sizes, right?


This is also important to realize. Thud is a big dog but his crate is bigger than my bathroom - or, well, the floor space available in my bathroom (like if you removed the toilet, shelves, sink/counter, etc). It's also about the same square footage as my bed. He is not being kept in a small space.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

My adult dog is crated during the day while I am at work, because we also have two cats and I don't want to risk harm to them when I am not there to intervene. 

She doesn't seem to care. I also do a heck of a lot more with my dog than the average owner, she gets plenty of exercise and mental stimulation and activities.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack said:


> This is also important to realize. Thud is a big dog but his crate is bigger than my bathroom - or, well, the floor space available in my bathroom (like if you removed the toilet, shelves, sink/counter, etc). It's also about the same square footage as my bed. He is not being kept in a small space.


Yep, Tyson's crate is 48x30x33 (I think) and he's a smallish dog. He has plenty of room to move around and stretch out. I'd rather he be a little cramped than a lot dead.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

It's clear the dogs get used to it, most of them are crated since they were puppies.
But i do really think it's a kind of resignation..

If there is no other choice, okay. But i think crated dogs are so normal to the people in your country, that you make the decission to fast and easy, without thinking if there are other possibilitys. And because everyone speaks about all the bad things that can happen to a dog, loose in the house. Who doesn't want his dog to be safe?

My dogs also choose their open crates for sleeping. It's a kind of a safe cave for them, if they get a bone or other chewing things, they go into them too. But to shut the door, is a big difference.

If a puppy is crated the first time, it whines and learns that there is no help, that it's alone and the owner doesn't care. After some time it gives up, maybe is exhausted and lies down to sleep. If you say it feels comfortabel then, it reminds me on cesar millan after he forces a dog to give up and calls it relaxation.sorry.

I think it's forbidden here for a reason.
8 hours a day+ night means the dog is in there most of his life! Even in shelters here the dogs have more freedom. There kennels are much bigger, they are together with another dog most of them have a place outside with grass, sand.. too or they go there together with a group of dogs for some hours and go for at least one walk every day. Most of the shelters work with the dogs.

I think it's a little bit egoistic to take a dog, if it's 8 hours a day alone( mostly it's more, you have to get to your work too). Also without a crate. It's different if you have already a dog and the circumstances change, that could happen to everyone.
But i know the dogs in your shelters are put to sleep if they find no owner in a short time. Maybe i would think different if it's the same here.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Let me summarize.

Young Plott hound uncrated:










Young Plott hound crated:


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

All of my dogs are crate trained, but I do not crate them when I am gone. The puppy stays in the laundry room and the 2 adults are left to free roam the house.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I think you're making quite a few assumptions about how and why people in the US use crates.



> If a puppy is crated the first time, it whines and learns that there is no help, that it's alone and the owner doesn't care. After some time it gives up, maybe is exhausted and lies down to sleep. If you say it feels comfortabel then, it reminds me on cesar millan after he forces a dog to give up and calls it relaxation.sorry.


Not everyone crate trains that way. When my puppy whined in his crate, I slept on the floor next to him. The next night, I moved his crate next to my bed and he curled up and went to sleep. The crate stayed there until he was mostly potty trained, then he slept on the bed with me.



> 8 hours a day+ night means the dog is in there most of his life!


Most puppies can graduate to being free at night after a few months and even then, not everyone crates puppies overnight. Many adult dogs are trustworthy when left alone, so they are not crated during the day. I'm not sure if even half the adult dogs on this forum are crated during the day - my perception is that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.



> Even in shelters here the dogs have more freedom. There kennels are much bigger, they are together with another dog most of them have a place outside with grass, sand.. too or they go there together with a group of dogs for some hours and go for at least one walk every day. Most of the shelters work with the dogs.


But shelter dogs _live_ in the kennels, not in a home. And what makes you think that people who crate their dogs don't also take them for walks or work with them? Crating a dog and taking a dog for walks / working with a dog are not mutually exclusive occurrences.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what shelter dogs and euthanasia rates have to do with a conversation about using crates for keeping owned dogs safe.


Since you are so anti-crate, what are your suggestions for keeping untrustworthy dogs* safe when they can't be supervised?

* dogs that counter surf, chew furniture and walls, get into trash, open cabinet and closet doors, etc


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Luxidog said:


> I can understand most of your reasons. Like the pitbull, that destroys everything, even in an empty room.
> 
> And i agree in crate training for every dog, because you can never know if it needs to feel comfortabel in it.
> 
> ...


I think you're *really* blowing things out of proportion and exaggerating how Americans use crates. You're simplifying it down so much that you don't see the many circumstances under which most of us use crates. Hopefully this explains things:

- A dog who is uncrated, but locked in a room, or a house, or a backyard, or wherever, and who gets little interaction with people every day is FAR worse off than a dog who is crated for 8 hours but then gets taken to an agility class, or on a long hike, or out for a bike ride. 

- My crate is bigger than the bathrooms in many European homes. 

- Most dogs are not crated past puppyhood. I know very few people who crate their adult dogs full time. My adult dogs have free roam of my house during the day, which starts when I deem them to be unlikely to destroy my furniture or drywall. Titan will have the same freedom when he is no longer a danger to himself.

- I think it is irresponsible to leave a young puppy uncrated. I know you love your dogs, but I care WAY too much about the health of my puppy to leave him unsupervised and risk him eating something that would obstruct his intestines and force him to undergo risky emergency surgery. 

So flip your distaste for our practices of crating and look at your own practices through that same lens. I think you endanger and don't care for your puppies if you won't crate them. It's like leaving a small child unsupervised without a play pen, or high chair, or crib, to safely confine the child. Around here, that's child endangerment. Same rules apply to puppies.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> I have never heared of a dog that got injured because of beeing alone at home.


I'm sure folks here could tell you about dogs who've been injured while left alone, if you're interested in hearing.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cookieface said:


> I'm sure folks here could tell you about dogs who've been injured while left alone, if you're interested in hearing.


I know someone whose Great Dane recently died of suffocation because it got its head stuck in a potato chip bag. I know someone else whose dog just had emergency surgery because she came home to a house full of blood and three dogs who had obviously been fighting. My mom's Cocker Spaniel had to have emergency bowel obstruction surgery after ingesting part of a door mat. My dad's Lab mix almost bled out because she decided to leap onto the glass coffee table and smashed through it when he wasn't there. A gentleman in another community of mine had a 200 lb Mastiff who busted through a window to get to someone in the yard.

I could keep going.

ETA: This happened with the owners at home and asleep, but it's another demonstration of the dangers that dogs face when they are left unsupervised and free roaming in a home for lengthy periods of time: http://www.seattledogspot.com/dog-h...n-after-suffering-major-injury-from-kong-toy/


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I adopted my dog as an adult, she had never been crated before in her life.

You know what happened? -Maybe- 5 mins of minor whining the first two nights, then nothing.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> I adopted my dog as an adult, she had never been crated before in her life.
> 
> You know what happened? -Maybe- 5 mins of minor whining the first two nights, then nothing.


That's because she quickly submitted to your oppressive crate and was clearly wishing she was back at the shelter!


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## Elwlyn (Dec 8, 2015)

My last puppy was raised in Europe many years ago where crates were unheard of. She destroyed our apartment many times over and while she fortunately never did serious damage to herself, she had multiple incidents (eating things that were inedible, choking, cutting her mouth and paws several times) that would've been avoided had she been crated. I think having access to crates and not using them when the puppy is unsupervised is just negligent unless you have another foolproof way to keep your puppy safe.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

With my first four dogs, I was only vaguely aware that crates existed.

That fourth dog was a 115-pound lab. Shortly after we got him (as a well-behaved adult) he staked out a spot under our basement steps as his own dog-cave. We were storing camping gear under there and he just shoved it out of the way. We put a nice bed and a water dish in there. It was just off a basement office and family room, so not too rustic.

That's when I first noticed that dogs will instinctively seek out enclosed spaces for safety and security. He could have slept anywhere he wanted to and that's the space he chose, even though he was the most social dog I've ever had. 

Esther let me know when she no longer needed to be crated at night. She repeatedly broke out of a crate where she had been previously quite content. 

Molly was crated as a pup at night right outside our bedroom. Esther slept alongside the crate, and would alert us when Molly needed to go out, so there was very little fuss from the pup and house-training was a relative breeze. 

I have little doubt that many European nations are WAY ahead of the U.S. with respect to many animal welfare issues, but crating dogs is not the issue I would be most concerned about.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

My dog is crated 8 hours a day while my husband and I are at work. He is 9 months old, so I don't trust him to not destroy things just yet. When he is fully mature I think we will be able to let him roam the house freely, but he just sleeps normally. Even on the weekends when we are home, after his morning walkies, feeding, and playtime he is content to sleep on the couch while I do whatever it is I want to do. Sometimes he follows me around the house while I do chores, but he just lays down wherever I stop and tries to nap. The important thing to remember about crating is that DOGS ARE NOT PEOPLE. They sleep 12-14 hours a day, even adults! 

I grew up on a farm and used to think crating was a strange way to keep a dog. But then I realized that if every dog owner was required to never crate their dog for more than an hour a day and allow them full access to the house and a yard, not many people would own dogs. They would all live on farms in the country or with people who could work from home. Most people in North America work 8+ hours a day. Some work an hour from home. Driving back on breaks to let the dog out is impractical. Do I wish it was different? Sure, but I need to make money to live. I would love to have a kennel attached to the garage so my dog could have shelter inside and a nice big run to play in while I'm away at work, but that's not going to happen for some time. You know what he would do even if he had that? SLEEP. Maybe get up a few times to potty, but I'm almost certain he would sleep.

Crates are not the size of bunny cages, either. They are usually big enough for the dog to stretch out if he wishes. Puppies may get one that is just big enough to turn around, stand, and lie down because they are still working on potty training.

Anyways, I use a crate because I don't want my dog to destroy my house or get into things that can hurt him.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> So no one from the working class in Europe should have a puppy? Or do the people who are working class and have jobs just go to work every day and hope their house isn't too destroyed?


I'll say that on Dutch forums there is a very prevalent attitude that yes, you cannot have a puppy if you work fulltime and yes, you cannot leave any dog home alone for 8 hours. Preferably no more than 4 hours. Which means that yes, if you work and cannot make arrangements you cannot have a dog. Also, crates are evil. 

Needless to say, this attitude is pretty annoying and usually I refrain from stating my opinion on the matter. Sometimes I feel like a hippy compared to you guys lol, but then I read the comments on that Dutch forum and I realize that nope, they are hippies, not me. The attitude there is you can only have a dog if you are home almost all day every day. 

I don't know in what magical world it's possible to do that and still somehow be able to pay your bills and food and all, but I sure would like to live there. Unfortunately, reality dictates I must work. 

Thankfully it is also a reality that dogs sleep and rest an average of 16 hours a day. So yay.  whether they do that in a crate, or on a pillow, or on a pillow in a crate... 

To be honest the thing I dislike about crates is all the space they take in. Well, for large dogs that is. And I think it looks ugly to have a huge cage in the living. So Mike, who is crate trained, has a pillow instead of a crate.  

I don't feel not using a crate is negligent by the way. Using a crate or not is a personal choice. There is no right or wrong. If someone can keep their pup safe without a crate, more strength to them.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I get the feeling i made some of you quite angry.. That wasn't my intention!

I'm really glad to hear, that most adult dogs don't live in crates.that it's not normality.

My puppies weren't in danger too. They stayed with me most of the time, at night in my bed. beeing alone was trained over a long time and without things around that are dangorous. It's possible. I think it's important for a small puppy to feel that it's not alone, all puppies love it to cuddle when sleeping.

I don't think that everybody should have a dog, only because he wants to. More than 4 hours alone is to much for an animal that is strongly bonded to his people.if there is someone who looks after the dog when his owner is working, it's okay.i say the same to people here that are working the whole day.
Also adopting a puppy without having the time to stay with him till it can be alone safely and without fear is egoistic. Why not an adult dog ?

I mentioned the shelters, because i would maybe see it different if the dog gets killed otherwise.

Thank you, most of you let me understand the whole thing better. Dog people here often think it's only for benefit for the owner and lazyness. But with some reasons i can't agree it's to strange to me.but that's okay, i really believe you do what you think is the best for your pets and that they have a good time with you, when you are at home.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Luxidog said:


> I don't think that everybody should have a dog, only because he wants to. *More than 4 hours alone is to much for an animal that is strongly bonded to his people.*if there is someone who looks after the dog when his owner is working, it's okay.i say the same to people here that are working the whole day.
> Also adopting a puppy without having the time to stay with him till it can be alone safely and without fear is egoistic. Why not an adult dog ?


Bolded - If this is true, about 95% of the people on this forum shouldn't have dogs. 

Sorry all of us egotistical dog owners don't live in the same privileged world that you do that affords your bills and lifestyle without working more than four hours a day.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> I'm sure folks here could tell you about dogs who've been injured while left alone, if you're interested in hearing.


Well, let's see. There was Molly's grab and gorge on a pound of food that was poisonous to her. And the time she tore an arm off a teddybear and swallowed that. And the hole she ate in our house siding and wood she swallowed from THAT. She's really good at eating things that can kill her. I'm not leaving her alone to see what she comes up with. We've avoided bowel obstruction surgery so far, but largely because her unsupervised time is limited and we CRATE HER when we're all out of the house. We are still coming up on a grand of vet bills from this crap, though. (The food shouldn't have been in reach, but the HOUSE and teddy bear she scaled a wall to get, I'm not blaming myself for) 

And as for the rest:
My dogs aren't crated at night. 
My adult dogs who aren't inclined to really dangerous behavior aren't crated at all, anymore. Most were out of crates before they were 1, though 2 is more common/typical. Of the 5, 3 are never crated at all, anymore. Ever (well okay, sporting events/workshops/etc they get crated because rules). 
Most of my dogs do some doggy sport or another - actually, strike that, they ALL do now. 
About half of my dogs are in a training class, practice, or at a trial 2 or 3 days a week. Some weeks, with trials, that's more like 4 or 5 days. 
Everyone is actively trained and engaged.
Everyone goes on multiple mile hikes several days a week during most of the year. 
Everyone goes swimming several times a week during summer.
We do agility, disc, obedience, lure coursing (now), and have done treibball and dock diving is in the pipes.

I can PROMISE YOU, even during that first 1 or 2 years when the dogs are being crated through the work day, or even the odd (GASP) 12-14 hour day while I had family members in the hospital while they were young:

They're not understimulated, bored, or being kept like a caged pet. In fact, I'd wager that I do more with my dogs than most people outside this forum. So no, you're not going to get much agreement from me that I'm taking the easy way out.

ETA: I'd also wager that they're danged relieved for 8 hours of me not pestering them and being allowed to sleep. As for dogs bonding strongly enough that leaving them more than 4 hours is wrong? LOOOOOL. DEPENDS ON THE DOG. I promise you that some dogs don't care WHO is with them and others would just as soon be left alone entirely.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

In North America, dogs are already being killed en masse in shelters as it is. 

If people who worked full time couldn't have dogs? That number would increase exponentially.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, how many people can afford to have the dog and don't have to work full time? Who are these people? Yeah, some people work from home and some are stay at home parents/single income homes where it works out okay, but it's pretty freaking rare. Usually people have money or time - not both.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

*Do you leave adult dogs in the crate, when you are for work? How long would they stay inside?*

- Yes. Full work day 4 days a week. 9ish hours with a break at lunch to potty and play a bit

*How long do you leave your pups in the crate?*

- See above. It's usually 4.5 hours, lunch break for 30-45 minutes, then 4.5 hours

*Why don't you leave the dog loose in the house?*

- I have one dog that is very destructive. When she was 6 she ate my door frame for example. Yesterday I left her loose for a few hours and she got into chocolate cookies on my counters. My old dog is going senile and potties indoors if left alone loose more than an hour or so (she used to never, I think it's a cognitive issue). My youngest dog is much stronger than my other two and isn't always able to de-escalate situations. While I think they'd most likely be ok together, I want to play it safe and only have them together while supervised. My old dog has seizures occasionally and I don't want her to trigger the other two into going after her.

To give you an idea, my 25 lb dog has a 48" crate. It's pretty darn roomy. The paps have expens technically. Summer's has flooring so she won't potty on the carpet if she has to go.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm glad your intention wasn't to make people angry, but when you come to a dog forum and call members (who are often more dedicated to ensuring their dogs have full, enriched lives than many owners) cruel it's not unreasonable for them to react negatively.



Luxidog said:


> I don't think that everybody should have a dog, only because he wants to. More than 4 hours alone is to much for an animal that is strongly bonded to his people.if there is someone who looks after the dog when his owner is working, it's okay.i say the same to people here that are working the whole day.
> Also adopting a puppy without having the time to stay with him till it can be alone safely and without fear is egoistic. Why not an adult dog ?





> I mentioned the shelters, because i would maybe see it different if the dog gets killed otherwise.


I'm not sure I understand this point. In many areas, dogs are routinely euthanized due to lack of space and available homes. If your desire is to make dog ownership more restrictive (as described in the quote above), many more dogs will die.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Yes dogs are sleeping most of the day. But not the whole time at the same place without moving. Beeing locked up is a big difference! 
Otherwise you could leave your crates open the whole time. (I think you could, because most of the dogs are so used to it, that the crate is their place for hours without the possibility to change.)
My dogs change between the crates, my bed and other furniture and sometimes they like to look out of the windows, licking each other, play and chew (with) toys, the cats like to cuddle with them.. I think it's a little bit sad if they are forced to live their life only with their humans and sleep the rest of the day. Although they choose it like this most of the time. But it's better if they can choose.

It's not a perfect world. Many dogs don't have a perfect life, most life far away from perfect. But if i'm a responsible dog lover i have to do everything to make it the best way i can. Even if i can't have a dog, because it would be alone to long. or i have to ask friends or family members for help, or pay for a dogwalker or daycare.

I have two horses and would love it to have them near around me. But i won't let them live in my small garden because of my wishes.it's much better for them to live on a farm, together with their herd.
And i like elephants too..should i put one in my garden?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I imagine you'd notice a lone elephant in your garden to be withdrawn and lethargic due to it's needs not being met.

Plenty of us crate and ALSO meet our dog's physical and mental stimulation needs.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Luxidog said:


> Yes dogs are sleeping most of the day. But not the whole time at the same place without moving. Beeing locked up is a big difference!
> Otherwise you could leave your crates open the whole time. (I think you could, because most of the dogs are so used to it, that the crate is their place for hours without the possibility to change.)
> My dogs change between the crates, my bed and other furniture and sometimes they like to look out of the windows, licking each other, play and chew (with) toys, the cats like to cuddle with them.. I think it's a little bit sad if they are forced to live their life only with their humans and sleep the rest of the day. Although they choose it like this most of the time. But it's better if they can choose.
> 
> ...


Honestly, my dog's are uncrated. They have been since 6 a.m. They went back to bed at 7. Not one of them has moved. I can tell you exactly when they move - when the husband comes home for lunch and they know they get fed. But seriously 5 dogs. Since 7 a.m, post potty/walk/breakfast (that's close to 5 hours). Not one has left the space they are in. Oh, they've shifted positions but no more than they could in their crates - less, even. They will do the same thing after they've eaten lunch and until post 5 o'clock when they know fun things (and dinner) happens.

So, there's a fundamental flaw there.

I mean there's a lot of fundamental flaws, including the elephant analogy, but that's the first one. Of many.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My dogs sleep a lot. Even the young cattle dog x terrier (who is NOT low energy). 

I really just don't feel bad that he sleeps in his crate vs in the dog bed in the living room. Especially since he gets a mid day break and basically spends that time sprinting. 

I really need to get a picture of Hank in his crate, it's laughable how big it is. 

He's fine though really. He loves his crate and often goes in there on his own. I'm single and work full time with multiple dogs. They're all next to each other in their separate (oversized) crates. They can all eat and chew their chews in peace but are still around each other. If the old dog starts having a seizure, the other two can't gang up on her. Etc. 

It's not ideal but I have to work.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I don't know if more dogs would be killed, if people act more responsible..but if i had to decide if a dog is killed or more than 4 hours alone, i would choose the last. That's not how it works in reality..

It seems cruel to me, that doesn't mean it's the only acceptable truth for every dog at every place. I don't think anyone here wants to do something bad to his dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Honestly Mia has probably ruined me for ever being able to leave a dog loose. I've just never had such a determined little nut. The idea of letting a dog roam the house is terrifying to me lol.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have a Doberman and a Golden x Poodle cross that sleep in crates at night. When I get up in the morning, they go outside, come back in and Kris goes back into her crate on her own and sleeps. Bonnie is sleeping in the kitchen right now and has been since she got up. My little dogs (four of them) sleep on the bed at night, get up and move into the kitchen with me and go back to sleep. I have been up since 6 am and it is now almost 9 am and all of them are still sleeping and will until I go outside. At night they go into their crates on their own at around 9 pm and I just close their doors when I go to bed so they have been sleeping in their crates for 9 hours, never a peep out of them.

None of my dogs have ever cried for hours when I first crated them. They have had lots of exercise before they are put in their crates at night and they may whine for a couple of minutes before they go to sleep. If they wake up and whine during the night, they go outside, then right back into their crates. If I have to go somewhere during the day that some of the dogs cannot come with me, they are crated for their safety except for four of them that are reliable loose.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I don't think we can come together in this thing. Maybe you all are right and it isn't a Problem at all. I'm not the one who knows everything..i would rather crate my dogs for some hours than leave them alone for 8 every day.that this is normal and ok to you is far more shocking than the crate thing, if it's not so long.

(But i can't change how it feels to me and i don't think people here are wrong and also the law on it. )
I'm glad that it's not normal here to get a dog if working the whole day and that breeders and shelters see it the same.although your dogs get training and walks when you are at home, it's sad that they live most of their life alone.sorry. 
I know dogs here too, that are all alone the whole day, but it's not normal and accepted.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Have you read anything that anyone else has written?



Luxidog said:


> My dogs change between the crates, my bed and other furniture


Yes, loose dogs can move around: floor to bed to sofa to floor. 



> sometimes they like to look out of the windows,


That's great unless you have a dog who will get too excited and remain in an agitated state most of the day. Or, I believe there was at least one member here, whose dog broke through a window (door?) to chase after another animal.



> licking each other, play and chew (with) toys, the cats like to cuddle with them..


That's great until one dog gets tired of being harassed by the other dog and they fight, or they fight over toys or tear apart and eat a toy, or for some reason decide the cats need to die.

So, yes, loose dogs can change sleeping spots and crated dogs are more restricted, but even with that advantage, for a dog that can't be trusted loose for whatever reason - I'll take the safest option (i.e., a crate) every time.



> I think it's a little bit sad if they are forced to live their life only with their humans and sleep the rest of the day. Although they choose it like this most of the time. But it's better if they can choose.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I just don't understand how people can afford not to work?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Luxidog, this is starting to look a lot less like a friendly discussion on the differences in canine practices and a lot more like a campaign.

We like friendly discussions here and are generally tolerant of minority opinions. We don't like campaigns.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Kyllobernese: what do you think would happen, if they are not crated? Maybe the little dogs together and the bigger ones in different rooms. Do they get along with each other?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I just don't understand how people can afford not to work?


I know! I'd love to live somewhere that I could live comfortably and not work more than four hours a day. Where is this magical land?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> I have no idea what you're trying to say here.


Me either. Particularly considering the number of people here who are involved in training classes/competition on some level, and have multiple dogs. I certainly don't just lock my dogs in a box and only take them out when it's just me around? There are those classes, trials, going on vacation with us, family members, friends, petstores, the odd dog friendly place to eat or store (I don't do petstores), trips to the lakes, the woods, hiking -

I mean. What else would you hve them be doing, exactly? And how does the ability to look out the window (or not) change any of that?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I have known several people who had dogs that killed another household dog while the owner was out. It definitely happens.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Sorry it really wasn't meant as a campaign.it's just to strange to me..so i overacted.but i started the thread really to learn something about other people.i know that my opinion isn't the one and only that's the best.
I let it go now, i don't think there is more to say about it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I have known several people who had dogs that killed another household dog while the owner was out. It definitely happens.


Yep. I know a relative where that was the case. Lived together fine but something set one off and the little one was torn to bits. There is a reason even when the dogs aren't crated when we're out, they are separated by DOORS.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

cookieface said:


> I know! I'd love to live somewhere that I could live comfortably and not work more than four hours a day. Where is this magical land?


Me too.

To make things even crazier, Hank's crate is up against a window and he can look outside from his crate.

EDIT: Is it common in other countries for people to not work? How do they afford housing and food and such? (Serious question. I don't think this would work for the vast majority in the US)


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Luxidog said:


> I don't know if more dogs would be killed, if people act more responsible..but if i had to decide if a dog is killed or more than 4 hours alone, i would choose the last. That's not how it works in reality..
> 
> It seems cruel to me, that doesn't mean it's the only acceptable truth for every dog at every place. I don't think anyone here wants to do something bad to his dog.


First of all... Just because YOU perceive something as cruel. Does NOT in fact make it cruel. Yours is just one person's opinion.... Nothing more... Crates can be and are GREAT management tools for keeping dogs.... 

The issue escapes you. It really does not matter if the dog is crated.... Or how long the dog is crated. 

What matters is what sort of enrichment and stimulation the dog has in its life. 

A dog could be free to roan the house 24/7. But if the owner does not spend time actively engaged with the dog, the dog would have a lonely miserable existence. 

Far better for a dog to have an owner that leaves it crated 8 hours a day (or longer) But then spends 2-4 hours actively engaged with the dog. Playing with the dog, exercising the dog, training, etc. I am not talking about the dog hanging out with the owner while they watch tv, etc. I am talking actual active interactions/.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> A dog could be free to roan the house 24/7. But if the owner does not spend time actively engaged with the dog, the dog would have a lonely miserable existence.


I see you've met my mother's dog. 

It's a JRT. It's never been on a walk. It rarely goes outside at all - uses puppy pads. It's obese, has skin issues, and is visibly depressed/has given up on life. It knows how to sit and the only 'love' it gets is via someone throwing human food at it. It's just. Argh.

But hey. He's never been crated!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The issue escapes you. It really does not matter if the dog is crated.... Or how long the dog is crated.
> 
> What matters is what sort of enrichment and stimulation the dog has in its life.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I think the point was made earlier that crating a dog doesn't mean that the dog doesn't get mental and physical activity and enrichment when s/he's not crated.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Sorry, but this last posting...

My english isn't good i know but i want to say that only if something is cruel to me it's not the truth. Okay?

And it's normal here too to make something with your dog, not only watching tv. That has nothing to do with crating.

For the others: people here are working too. But most dog owners have someone to look after the dog( you have dogwalker too??) or someone of the family comes home earlier, or they can take their dogs with them to work.. I am lucky i can do my work at home.

It's not that dangorous without a crate.. I know many people with more than one dog and just one case, where a dog get killed from another when the owner was gone.
If it is as dangorous as you say, why are the dogs here not all injured or death??
We know our dogs, as you do yours and if somebody has a bad feeling when leaving them alone, he won't do it? Or in a safe room or separeted..

It's ok to habe different points of view, but can you imagine that the dogs here are not in danger their whole life??


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Luxidog said:


> I have two horses and would love it to have them near around me. But i won't let them live in my small garden because of my wishes.it's much better for them to live on a farm, together with their herd.


Ahem. So you have two horses. How big is their pasture? Large enough that they'd be able to roam as much as they would in the wild? How often do you ride them or interact with them? Once every day? Once a week? Or are they just pasture ornaments? 

Also, how can you afford two horses and a dog and work less than four hours a day? Just curious.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OK, I am uncomfortable with a lot of common crating practices, and a bunch of other American attitudes toward animals. . .I probably am a hippie , or maybe just more European in my attitudes, because I wasn't raised in the US (but not in Europe either, lol). So I get it! 

But, reality. I work sort-of-full-time, a variable schedule. Most days I only work 6 1/2 hours, but also work on Saturday mornings. And of course there's commute time, because everything is freakishly far away from everything else (I don't think this is true of most of Europe ). Some days I can come home for lunch, sometimes not. If I had a puppy I'd have to crate them, and it would be 8-ish hours a day. What other choice do I have? I am very uncomfortable with allowing a puppy to cry in the crate at night (I probably would sleep next to the crate, or not crate at all at night if I could get away with it), but I have to go to work and I can't call in absent because my puppy is crying. 

I've never crated a puppy. I tried with Willow, but bad advice made it cruel so I stopped trying, and she remained claustrophobic to the end. But, I emphasize, this was due to bad advice (terrible cruel old-school training books), not due to crating in general. I put Penny in the (finished but not carpeted) basement when I was gone; there are still teeth marks on the stairs . My grandpa put his puppy in the bathroom when unsupervised, and he ate that bathroom. He definitely could have choked on a chunk of drywall or whatever. The major repairs have been done but there are still signs of baby Boomer if you know where to look. And the dog has been gone for 8 years! Boomer was also claustrophobic, but my grandpa was harsh and mean so he wouldn't have used a crate properly either. I crated Suri when she was new, to protect the cats and her, and she doesn't seem to mind it. And she just ate a bottle of fish oil pills so I've been tightening up on keeping things where she can get them, but crating would do the same. She's also gated out of most of the house. Penny stays on her bed just about any time we aren't actively doing anything (I didn't teach her that). She really wouldn't care if she were crated! 

If only people who didn't have to work could have dogs, there would be so few dogs. I mean, what, retired people, and stay-at-home moms maybe? But they're busy with the kids and don't always have the time/resources for a puppy, and I know so few SAHMs anyway. Maybe fewer people having dogs would be better for dogs in general, idk. But it would be sad, too. I like the prevalence of dogs!

I'm sort of reminded of the older people who say "crating is so cruel! We would get one of those big cardboard boxes they sell watermelons out of, and put the puppy in that!". Um. That's still a crate .


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I wonder if Western Europeans are much more likely to be getting puppies from breeders than North Americans are? Almost everyone I know has a shelter/rescue dog, most of whom were adopted as adults. Only one person I know has a puppy from a breeder and then contained him in a baby playpen (not an exercise pen, but like the kind babies sleep in) which is really the same thing as a crate while being less durable and harder to clean (as an adult he then destroyed several remote controls including an expensive one for their Sleep Number bed....)

While of course puppies have house training needs and can chew on stuff, they do have some advantages to a full grown adult in terms of house-proofing. For example, not big enough to reach counter tops, not strong enough to bust through windows, probably not an issue of bad habits like door dashing etc. It is also easier to figure out when a breeder puppy is going to arrive home, at least 8 weeks notice after all and maybe schedule some help from friends and family for the first month or two. Whereas a shelter dog might be like get the dog that day or the dog is dead.

I think the OP is over-estimating the use of crates in the U.S.

With the fosters for example, I would start a dog out in a crate while I went to work because I had no idea yet their level of destructiveness or house training. When I would get home, we'd go exercise and then the dog would be loose under my supervision in a "dog room' with minimal stuff to destroy. Then short breaks unattended and loose in a dog room. Usually within the first week or two, the dog could sleep loose at night and be crated during my work day. For most of the fosters, within 3-4 weeks, they were loose in the dog room during the day and night. A few continued to be crated during the day after doing something like eating the couch 

Only rarely after the first week or two was a dog crated at night and it would be for a specific need-- like one puppy who had a very invasive neuter surgery and had to be very exercise restricted for 10 days. I moved a LARGE crate into my bedroom (sized for a 80 lb dog and he was maybe 25 lbs) so that he wouldn't be lonely at night.

Few people I know have the space for a dedicated dog-safe room though; my house is small but the layout is very suitable for separated areas and I don't have kids to figure into the logistical mix. 

I can't think of anyone I know with adult dogs who routinely crates them overnight and most people don't crate them daily either without a break. One of my friends does crate their two dogs during the workday with a lunch break because they used to run free together but started to get into fights. They run right into their crates in the morning and settle down to sleep safely. They are loose when the family is home, including all night. 

I do know a LOT of dogs who would have been killed in shelters had crating not been an option for their fosters and future adopters.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

How much mental and physical activity does a dog get each day, with his owner working 8 hours a day, if there are children too?


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Luxidog said:


> How much mental and physical activity does a dog get each day, with his owner working 8 hours a day, if there are children too?


Why do you keep avoiding all of our relevant questions about how someone affords dogs and horses if they only work 4 hours or less a day?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Luxidog said:


> Sorry it really wasn't meant as a campaign.it's just to strange to me..so i overacted.but i started the thread really to learn something about other people.i know that my opinion isn't the one and only that's the best.
> I let it go now, i don't think there is more to say about it.





Luxidog said:


> How much mental and physical activity does a dog get each day, with his owner working 8 hours a day, if there are children too?


I thought we were all done here.

Most of the dogs belonging to dogforum members are extremely active and well cared-for. None of mine have been inside a crate (except for transport) since they were young and crazy. But the crate was there when they needed it. 

Really there are MUCH bigger animal welfare issues in the U.S.

If it becomes obvious that this thread is becoming circular and divisive, I'll have to close it.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm going to be blunt: I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about me crating my dogs. They are safe. They are loved. That is all.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

There are so many people writing, i can't answer it fast .
I never said it's never ok!!! I can understand most of you.
It's just the fact that it seems to be normal that's so strange.
My horses live with others together on a very big place.
I'm not working only 4 hours, but at home and can choose when i work.
Most people here get their dogs from shelters, now many people from Spain, hungary and rumania, some get a mix puppy from a family or farm. Pure breeds are not that often.
I think it's better to live crated, than in a shelter or dead!
But i'm wondering if it can be that you have more dogs fighting? It seems not realistic, but i really know just one case of serious fighting from dogs that are living together. Maybe because most people test if they like each other bevore taking the new dog forever?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

InkedMarie said:


> I'm going to be blunt: I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about me crating my dogs. They are safe. They are loved. That is all.


Agreed. Or that my dog is *gasp* alone for 8 hours a day. I work, he sleeps all day, we spend all of our time together outside of work. He's not suffering, far from it.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Almost all my coworkers have dogs too. Some crate, some leave their dogs outside all day. Some have dog doors. Some use potty pads. Etc. 

I could not leave mine outside. He'd bark all day long or escape


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

My dog was left outside all the time in her previous home.

She was not spayed, had 4-5 litters, and was infested with 3 kinds of worms when the shelter got her. But hey, at least she wasn't crated.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Luxidog said:


> But i'm wondering if it can be that you have more dogs fighting? It seems not realistic, but i really know just one case of serious fighting from dogs that are living together. Maybe because most people test if they like each other bevore taking the new dog forever?


Testing dogs together before adoption doesn't really say much for how they will get along over the years. A puppy and an adult dog might get along well until the puppy matures and loses the "puppy license" for annoying behavior. Or two dogs might get along until one or both reach maturity at age 2-3 years old.

Or they get along for years until they just don't. A lot of minor disagreements that a human can intervene between the dogs before they get really going at it become full blown fights if there is no human to step in when the play gets a little rough or when one dog guards a toy etc. 

As for time and attention, well, my female Eva is staying at my parents' right now while my male recovers from surgery. Father works from home and mom is mostly retired so there is a human with her maybe 23 hours per day. Yet she is getting the same amount of exercise as when she is at my house with me gone 9 hours per day and she's sleeping the day away on a blanket about the same as she sleeps the day away at home. She's getting an extra couple neck scratches here and there and maybe 1 more pee break but that's about it.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I have 2 dogs, 2 horses, a pidgeon baby, 3 cats and 2 guinea pigs. And I'm living here with my son. I hope that's enough private information, just because you can see I'm not avoiding it.
The farm where my icelandic horses live belongs to a friend of mine, it's not very expensive.
I stop writing now. I continued before because it's simply not the truth that it's to dangorous for dogs uncrated


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Almost all my coworkers have dogs too. Some crate, some leave their dogs outside all day. Some have dog doors. Some use potty pads. Etc.
> 
> I could not leave mine outside. He'd bark all day long or escape


Living in an apartment, I don't have the option of leaving Kuma outside, but even if I did? He would HATE it! He's an indoor dog, loves to play outside of course, but would never want to be out there all day long. He hasn't need to be crated since he was about 9 months old, but if you gave him the choice of being left outside all day or being crated, I guarantee, he'd chose the crate, every time.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Luxidog said:


> I have 2 dogs, 2 horses, a pidgeon baby, 3 cats and 2 guinea pigs. And I'm living here with my son. I hope that's enough private information, just because you can see I'm not avoiding it.
> The farm where my icelandic horses live belongs to a friend of mine, it's not very expensive.
> I stop writing now. I continued before because it's simply not the truth that it's to dangorous for dogs uncrated


Only in your limited experience. For many, MANY dogs, it absolutely IS too dangerous to be uncrated.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Luxidog said:


> I have 2 dogs, 2 horses, a pidgeon baby, 3 cats and 2 guinea pigs. And I'm living here with my son. I hope that's enough private information, just because you can see I'm not avoiding it.
> The farm where my icelandic horses live belongs to a friend of mine, it's not very expensive.
> I stop writing now. I continued before because it's simply not the truth that it's to dangorous for dogs uncrated


How many dogs have you owned in your lifetime?


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I would never leave my dog alone outside the whole day. My dogs wouldn't like it and it's too dangorous.
I know only farm dogs and poor breeding dogs living outside.
I know i wanted to stop, but just i'm not a crating fan doesn't mean i'm completely nuts.
Do you really think that every mad thing you can do to your dog is ok to me but crating??


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I had dogs my whole life(i'm 33) and know many many dogs.
What do you think that people do here with a dog that's in danger alone since crating is forbidden??


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

As for the whole "it's not too dangerous to leave dogs uncrated" bit, I'm just going to leave this here. It's from a blog titled "So you think you want a Bull Terrier?" and from what I've read is not at all uncommon for the breed. In fact, most Bull Terrier forums direct new members considering Bull Terriers to read this blog before getting one.



> My Worst Bully Nightmare
> By Robert Bollong
> WARNING: Contains profanity
> 
> ...


While most dogs eventually can be given free roam, it's a simple fact that there are also many dogs that are just not ever going to be trustworthy to roam the house uncrated and unsupervised. The best and safest thing you can do for these dogs is to crate them.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Luxidog said:


> I had dogs my whole life(i'm 33) and know many many dogs.
> What do you think that people do here with a dog that's in danger alone since crating is forbidden??


Maybe put the dog in a small dogproofed room? Which is basically the same as a crate. Or maybe they re-home the dog. Both of those aren't always realistic options.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Nobody would consider putting the dog in a small room for the rest of his life and most people don't give their dog away that fast. Another guess?
Maybe it's your limited experience that makes you unable to imagine a life without crates??


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Luxidog said:


> I had dogs my whole life(i'm 33) and know many many dogs.
> What do you think that people do here with a dog that's in danger alone since crating is forbidden??


We've asked for alternatives, but you haven't offered any.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have two kids. I also have five dogs.

How much dedicated time do my dogs get with me working? Well, I answered that question earlier. My kids are teenagers. Kids aren't dependent forever. At some point they're actually rather helpful. 

They're also really portable, so.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Luxidog said:


> I had dogs my whole life(i'm 33) and know many many dogs.
> What do you think that people do here with a dog that's in danger alone since crating is forbidden??


You are beating a dead horse here......

And you base your opinion on emotion rather than fact.


Dogs left alone in houses can and do in fact die from accidents. Electrocutions from chewing electric cords (if you are lucky the dog will burn your house down while it fries itself) getting into poisons, ingesting pieces of torn up furniture, clothes etc. Getting into cabinets, etc getting drugs, etc. 

The list of ways a dog can kill themselves in your home is long... It happens..... Dogs die....


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Luxidog said:


> Nobody would consider putting the dog in a small room for the rest of his life and most people don't give their dog away that fast. Another guess?
> Maybe it's your limited experience that makes you unable to imagine a life without crates??


What's with "the rest of his life" bit? *No one* here thinks crating a dog for his entire life is ideal, yet we understand that some dogs need more restrictions than others. We can see shades of gray, a point you seem to be missing.

And apparently, using a dog-proofed room isn't acceptable. Most people don't have the luxury of setting their own hours or working from home...so that leaves...no one can own a dog?


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

My bulldog was crate trained. 

As a puppy, he would be crated every time we left the house and every time we went to bed. We played crate games to make the crate a not-scary place and he got a long lasting treat for going into it on his own, such as a stuffed kong or bone. 

This was the safer option because even with thorough puppy proofing (I also have kids, so it was child AND puppy proof) my dog could have still made some bad decisions if left on his own. This also insured any accidents were well contained - his crate was large enough to put 2 of him in, comfortably. 

When we came home, he was let out of his crate and taken outside for exercise and to relieve himself. As he was a puppy, he was taken out again 15 minutes after bringing him back into the house. If we were home - my dog was taken outside every 15 to 25 minutes for a 10 minute walk and rewarded for relieving himself outside. This was when we got him as an 11 week old puppy. 

Twice, we had to leave him home while we went to another city. During that time, he was crated until my friend came to walk him and take him out to relieve himself. My dog was crated every single time we left the house or went to bed for the first year of his life. 

THEN in his second year, he started sleeping in the bed with us, but he was still crated every time we left the house. Again, he is a well exercised, trained, dog. BUT he also has many allergies and I couldn't take any risks that he would get into the cupboards or cat food or garbage or chew the rug.. So he was crated if we couldn't supervise. 

He is now 3 years old. He is not crated overnight, and he is not crated when we leave the house. 
He IS crated if we have company and is over excited and needs a moment to collect himself. He is also crated if my kids are eating dinner because they cannot resist his puppy eyes and it can get... messy. 

When I have another dog staying with us, Toby is crated for meals to prevent any stress to the boarding dog. 

I have even been known to crate my cats. Shadow is a 2 year old, high energy black tabby cat who gets himself so wound up he will begin to attack one of the other cats. We crate him for a period of about 5 minutes at a time to bring him down a notch or two. He goes in, he lays down, and when he comes back out he's a cuddly lovable cat again who isn't hanging from my chandelier. 

My senior cat is fed her breakfast in the crate because she eats a different food than the other cats. 
She has her own crate too, but it's currently in the garage as I needed the space in my bedroom for my baby's crib. My senior cat has arthritis and does best when she's crated. She uses her litter box and eats well. Outside of her crate, she pee's on the floor and doesn't finish her meals. 


Crates are not the devil. They can be a useful tool, or they can be abused. I would dare to assume the majority of this forum base uses them as intended and not as a cage for their dogs to hangout and look pretty like a canary, or fish in a tank.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Would you leave this dog uncrated?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXqNl5bTCMU


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Would you leave this dog uncrated?


Or this dog?



> The Ugly: Penny, Tornado of Destruction
> 
> When I rescued my Basenji, Penny, she was very ill with mange, hookworms, roundworms, dehydration, and malnutrition. While I had great hopes that she would heal into a happy, healthy dog, the first few weeks were rough. She was hairless and skittish, and she spewed diarrhea all over my living room the first moment after I brought her home. Cleaning cost: $250.
> 
> ...


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

I really really know many dogs.. If it's soo dangorous how could we live here with our dogs??
I don't know a dog that died alone in the house.
I wish you could read in our forum. There aren't that many dead dogs too. Can you explain this for me?
Can't you think about the fact, that your way of keeping the dogs safe isn't the one and only or the best?
I can understand you and your reasons, but you are acting if european dogs are in danger all the time.
Can you imagine that this law makes sense? That noone thinks "could we just use crates, because our dogs are in danger.."
I know 2 people that seperate their dogs, not more.
I really leave it now, but just think a moment about it.
Thanks to all that explained their decission


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Luxidog said:


> Nobody would consider putting the dog in a small room for the rest of his life and most people don't give their dog away that fast. Another guess?
> Maybe it's your limited experience that makes you unable to imagine a life without crates??


I don't know why you say "limited experience" when I already said I wasn't raised in the US and have seen lots of ways people manage their dogs. But I think crating is the most realistic and sometimes the best option. 

My uncle had a Dal with incredibly severe SA. She was dumped at the shelter because she couldn't be alone, ever. My cousin adopted her and, well, my cousin has to work so she couldn't keep the dog. Luckily, my uncle is retired and takes his dogs everywhere with him. So she lived a long happy life with him. But that's not realistic. It's a million-to-one chance of a dog ending up with someone like that. Life ain't perfect.

Dog walkers and doggie daycare are good options for social dogs who live in cities. If your dog has issues that disqualify them from daycare, or if they live in a more rural area, those aren't options.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Luxidog said:


> I really really know many dogs.. If it's soo dangorous how could we live here with our dogs??
> I don't know a dog that died alone in the house.
> I wish you could read in our forum. There aren't that many dead dogs too. Can you explain this for me?
> Can't you think about the fact, that your way of keeping the dogs safe isn't the one and only or the best?
> ...


Just because you do not know dogs that have died, does not mean it does not happen. 

All of the above is anecdotal.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Luxidog said:


> I really really know many dogs.. If it's soo dangorous how could we live here with our dogs??
> I don't know a dog that died alone in the house.
> I wish you could read in our forum. There aren't that many dead dogs too. Can you explain this for me?
> Can't you think about the fact, that your way of keeping the dogs safe isn't the one and only or the best?
> ...


And you are avoiding questions...... What you post amounts to a one sided rant based purely on your emotion and limited view.

Fact and reality are far different.

Please explain how you would safely leave this puppy alone free in house? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXqNl5bTCMU


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Luxidog said:


> I really really know many dogs.. If it's soo dangorous how could we live here with our dogs??
> I don't know a dog that died alone in the house.
> I wish you could read in our forum. There aren't that many dead dogs too. Can you explain this for me?
> Can't you think about the fact, that your way of keeping the dogs safe isn't the one and only or the best?
> ...


Maybe you don't know as many dogs as you think you do. Maybe not as many high drive or clever dogs as folks here know or own. 

Maybe people don't talk about accidents and unintended deaths. Maybe, because you have the luxury of flexible and fewer work hours, dogs are supervised more so there is less risk.

Your personal experience is not the totality of dog existence. Many, many things happen in the world that I don't have personal experience with; that doesn't make those event less real or less valid.

No one here has said that crating dogs is the best or only way to keep them safe. It's one option that happens to be convenient and practical.

No one here has said that European dogs in general are in danger. We have said that some dogs are a danger to themselves and need to be confined.

I have asked several time for suggestions for keeping mischievous dogs safe. You've not offered any.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Luxidog said:


> Nobody would consider putting the dog in a small room for the rest of his life and most people don't give their dog away that fast. Another guess?
> Maybe it's your limited experience that makes you unable to imagine a life without crates??


I honestly never used crates until I got Mia. We had a lot of dogs growing up. They were all left in the bathroom till they were a yearish and then fine.

People tell me all the time 'just train her' with Mia. It's laughable to be honest. I have NEVER lived with a dog remotely like her. The other dogs I've had were pretty normal as far as troublesome behavior goes. She just is not the norm that way. She is 7 years old and still not good being left out. I try to keep things out of her reach and so so often even though I rarely let her loose in either the car or the house she gets into something I am 100% sure she cannot get into. Don't know HOW she does it but she does. She'll undo latches, climb furniture, climb my cabinets (how?), unzip bags, chew the walls, etc. Rolled one of her crates around the house. It's unending. 

I really think it's better for her to be contained. At least I don't have to padlock the crate anymore. She has grown out of that. I also don't have to zip tie the crate anymore either. Baby steps.

Some dogs are just... really smart and a lot of trouble.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Nobody here is telling you that you have to crate your dogs, and nobody here wants to be told that they cannot crate their dogs.

When Esther was young hellhound, she went to the dog park every morning and chased tennis balls for an hour and then walked a minimum of three miles. Then she went to doggy daycare at least three days each week, where she reportedly would run non-stop for at least ten hours. In the evening, she'd get another 3-6 mile walk. 

Despite that, if she hadn't been crated when left alone for the first year, my wife would have taken her back to the shelter and, most likely, dropped me off there as well.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I'm guessing that Austria has a very different situation vis a vis shelter and rescue dogs, Luxidogs. We have MILLIONS of dogs, many of them puppies, in need of homes. Dogs that will die, or languish years in a small pen, if they are not adopted. What you're suggesting is that these dogs are better off dead or stuck in a pen _for years_ than in a home where they are crated. I can't think you really mean that.

Also, I'm pretty sure Austria has a different situation concerning work and welfare programs than America does. America has no parental leave. Companies can offer it, but they don't have to, and it's rarely ever paid time off. I'm guessing Austria has more generous welfare programs as well, all of which leads to more people at home able to raise a puppy full time than in America.

I agree with you to an extent- I would encourage people who can't at least come home midday to get an older dog as opposed to a puppy. In fact, I do encourage that, on this forum, all the time. But I don't think choosing otherwise makes a person a bad dog owner. Puppies need homes, too. Puppies are far better off growing up spending time in a crate- even hours at a time- than growing up in a shelter. Or not growing up at all. Plus, if you want a purebred dog, especially from a certain line or breeder, you have to act when those puppies become available, which isn't often. 

There are things America could do better- lots of them- but I don't think Europeans are better dog owners. Just different.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Sorry but..
It's really perfect to leave a SA dog in a crate, because the most important thing is, that nothing is destroyed. That the dog has the same fear in his cage doesn't matter at all.
It's the last i promise. But it's hard not to write if reading something.
The basenjii and destroyer pup: do you know wolfdogs? And whats typicall for them? I and many more managed it.

The answer to my question is to find somebody that Takes your dog while working and train with it in this period. Most problems could be fixed. Really everyone does this here. No one thinks that a new dog(puppy, shelter dog even from a family) can be left alone in the beginning. Some hope it would work but always have a Plan b.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Luxidog said:


> I really really know many dogs.. If it's soo dangorous how could we live here with our dogs??
> I don't know a dog that died alone in the house.
> I wish you could read in our forum. There aren't that many dead dogs too. Can you explain this for me?
> *Can't you think about the fact, that your way of keeping the dogs safe isn't the one and only or the best?*
> ...



It's not the one and only way to do it. And it poses it's own dangers - there have been dogs who get their tags caught in the bars of the crate and strangle themselves to death because the owners didn't think to remove the collars. Is it super common? - nope. But it's a possibility if you forget to remove your dogs collar when you crate them. 

*Not* crating dogs isn't the only way to do it either though. The fact is, there are many many ways to train dogs and what tools you utilize is a decision left completely up to you as the owner. 

I don't agree with the use of prong collars - but I've met many a happy dog who are walked on prong collars. Are they for me? Nope. Will I use them? Probably not. Do I think that I'm somehow better a trainer because my dog is capable of walking loose leash without one? Nope. 

Crates are just one tool out there for people to use at their own discretion to assist with training and keeping their dogs safe. 

Can you think about that for a moment? And realize that we're not monsters abusing our animals, and that maybe your way, isn't the only way or even the best way?


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Luxidog said:


> Sorry but..
> It's really perfect to leave a SA dog in a crate, because the most important thing is, that nothing is destroyed. That the dog has the same fear in his cage doesn't matter at all.
> It's the last i promise. But it's hard not to write if reading something.
> The basenjii and destroyer pup: do you know wolfdogs? And whats typicall for them? I and many more managed it.
> ...


I would love to see pictures of your wolfdog, because we have a couple of very experienced wolfdog owners on here, and they are not animals that can be kept in the house. If you can keep your wolfdog in your home, uncrated, I can guarantee you do not actually own a wolfdog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Luxidog said:


> Sorry but..
> It's really perfect to leave a SA dog in a crate, because the most important thing is, that nothing is destroyed. That the dog has the same fear in his cage doesn't matter at all.
> It's the last i promise. But it's hard not to write if reading something.
> The basenjii and destroyer pup: do you know wolfdogs? And whats typicall for them? I and many more managed it.
> ...



How do you fix problems that happen while you're not there?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Luxidog said:


> Sorry but..
> It's really perfect to leave a SA dog in a crate, because the most important thing is, that nothing is destroyed. That the dog has the same fear in his cage doesn't matter at all.
> It's the last i promise. But it's hard not to write if reading something.
> The basenjii and destroyer pup: do you know wolfdogs? And whats typicall for them? I and many more managed it.
> ...


You obviously haven't read anything that's been written in this discussion.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

would not put a dog in a small room only permanently or a crate permanently. but no one has advocated that at all.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Luxidog said:


> Sorry but..
> It's really perfect to leave a SA dog in a crate, because the most important thing is, that nothing is destroyed. That the dog has the same fear in his cage doesn't matter at all.
> It's the last i promise. But it's hard not to write if reading something.
> The basenjii and destroyer pup: do you know wolfdogs? And whats typicall for them? I and many more managed it.
> ...


You cannot fix problem behaviors that happen when you are not present. Because you do not know why, how or when they happened. 
This is a VERY basic tenet of modification of problem behaviors in dogs. 

If you have a dog that is being destructive when you are not present, all you can do is manage the dog to ensure safety.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Laurelin said:


> I honestly never used crates until I got Mia. We had a lot of dogs growing up. They were all left in the bathroom till they were a yearish and then fine.
> 
> People tell me all the time 'just train her' with Mia. It's laughable to be honest. I have NEVER lived with a dog remotely like her. The other dogs I've had were pretty normal as far as troublesome behavior goes. She just is not the norm that way. She is 7 years old and still not good being left out. I try to keep things out of her reach and so so often even though I rarely let her loose in either the car or the house she gets into something I am 100% sure she cannot get into. Don't know HOW she does it but she does. She'll undo latches, climb furniture, climb my cabinets (how?), unzip bags, chew the walls, etc. Rolled one of her crates around the house. It's unending.
> 
> ...


I can also shower now without having to crate her while I was in the shower. Yeah really was that bad for a good 5ish years.

EDIT: No one else has to use crates. But it's a reality at my house here. I really think it is the best way to manage my dogs. If I didn't have to work, that'd be fantastic. But I have to work. It is what it is.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Luxidog said:


> Sorry but..
> It's really perfect to leave a SA dog in a crate, because the most important thing is, that nothing is destroyed. That the dog has the same fear in his cage doesn't matter at all.
> It's the last i promise. But it's hard not to write if reading something.
> The basenjii and destroyer pup: do you know wolfdogs? And whats typicall for them? I and many more managed it.
> ...


Ha. Hahaha. So your uncrated wolfdog lives happily in your home while you somehow afford his food and two horses and pay all of your bills without working over 20 hours a week?

Whatever the heck fantasy world you live in, can I get an invite?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I am assuming this said "wolf dog" you are speaking of is a wolf/dog hybrid. 

Just so you know here, in many places it would be illegal to have one running around loose inside of your home. There are housing restrictions on them in some states. They are outright illegal to own in others. 

Folks can say what they want.... But I am not buying the comment about the wolf hybrid running around loose in the house. Getting along with other animals etc. 

I was born at night.... Just not last night....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> As for the whole "it's not too dangerous to leave dogs uncrated" bit, I'm just going to leave this here. It's from a blog titled "So you think you want a Bull Terrier?" and from what I've read is not at all uncommon for the breed. In fact, most Bull Terrier forums direct new members considering Bull Terriers to read this blog before getting one.
> 
> 
> 
> While most dogs eventually can be given free roam, it's a simple fact that there are also many dogs that are just not ever going to be trustworthy to roam the house uncrated and unsupervised. The best and safest thing you can do for these dogs is to crate them.


LOL, this could have been written about Izze, like seriously. I loved that dog (and you all know I did) but I NEVER want another puppy like her if I can help it. 

She also hated HATED crates, like ... I couldnt keep her in one, everyone I tried, she would break out of, so that was a no no. I had a (as safe as I could) room I put her in when I had to work (before I got my job at the stables and she was able to come with me); our kitchen, which had a doggie door that lead out to the fenced yard. the fence was a 6 ft privacy fence all the way around set in concrete, so she wasnt getting out. 

She was the only dog I havent crate trained, I always get a crate that is a couple of sizes bigger than what the sog will need when they are grown and divide it when they are young and make it larger as they grow. 

You would think I am super cruel because my dog cant have a bed in his crate, like at all, or he will shred it and eat it ... and die. He also cant be trusted out when I am not home, because again, he will eat stuff, and die. He knows how to open the food container, and he knows how to open the cabinets, and I think with enough time he could work out how to get onto the counter, so no, he is crated LOL


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Wolfdog, not wolf hybrid and no high or mid content. It's a saarloos american mid content wolfdog mix, f5 from wolf.
I think it's really to different to discuss. I agree that europeans are not the better dog owners, not at all.
It's possible to train beeing safe and without fear and destroying without aversive methods. We really do it often.
Please i can understand you and your situation can you try the same??
I really want to stay in this forum and come along with you. In many many things we share the same thinking.
I'm really don't seeing you as monsters, i'm just glad that we have the possibility to keep our dogs the way we do, without crating. Maybe because i'm used to it and a dog in a cage, that isn't at the vet or on a training class is to strange for me.
You can leave me my way of thinking about it and that i was never in a situation nor anybody i know in real life or the internet that a crate was the only or best solution.
But i'm not in the US and not in your situation. I wrote that i had done the same as you in some cases.
Peace?(Hippie.. : ) )


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Wolf hybrids higher than f5 count as wild animals and are forbidden here for private owners. Sadly some people cheat.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Luxidog said:


> Wolfdog, not wolf hybrid and no high or mid content. It's a saarloos american mid content wolfdog mix, f5 from wolf.
> I think it's really to different to discuss. I agree that europeans are not the better dog owners, not at all.
> *It's possible to train beeing safe and without fear and destroying without aversive methods. We really do it often.*
> Please i can understand you and your situation can you try the same??
> ...


How? What methods do you use to train a dog to be trustworthy when you're not present?

We understand your position. At the same time, claiming that crating is cruel based on your sweeping generalizations about life with dogs in the US isn't going to win friends here.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

And i can't get the point why you are thinking i'm inventing everything?
Don't you know people working at home?
More than 20 hours?
A horse isn't luxory here. It's a very small town, you would call it a village with many farms around it. 
Icelandic horses live outside the whole year, that's quite cheap i pay less than 50 dollar for both, because my friend is owning the farm. They don't get ill very often and are running barefoot.
Maybe life is really very different to yours. But here i'm not rich or something like that.


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## Luxidog (Mar 20, 2016)

Maybe i'll start a topic about training methods.. There are many things to do to calm a dog and then leaving it alone in babysteps.


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

Luxidog said:


> Wolfdog, not wolf hybrid and no high or mid content. It's a saarloos american mid content wolfdog mix, f5 from wolf.
> I think it's really to different to discuss. I agree that europeans are not the better dog owners, not at all.
> It's possible to train beeing safe and without fear and destroying without aversive methods. We really do it often.
> Please i can understand you and your situation can you try the same??
> ...


Perhaps you could point us in the direction of this training you are doing to keep destructive dogs from being destructive? I would very much love to leave my dog to roam while I am away at work. What were the steps you took to ensure your dogs did not destroy your house? Is there literature pertaining to this type of training? If you do this so often, perhaps you could enlighten us. In order to train something, we have to know how to train it, right?

It should also be pointed out that many of the people responding to you do not crate their adult dogs because they can be trusted. They are MATURE, ADULT dogs, not young puppies who are still figuring out how they fit into the world. Even some adult dogs need to be crated. I would never dream of leaving Ralphie home alone where he can chew on electric wires, eat drywall, knock over plants, or ingest couch stuffing so he can get a blockage and die. One day, yes, he will have all the freedom to sleep on whichever surface he desires, but today is not that day.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Kuma'sMom said:


> While most dogs eventually can be given free roam, it's a simple fact that there are also many dogs that are just not ever going to be trustworthy to roam the house uncrated and unsupervised. The best and safest thing you can do for these dogs is to crate them.


Yep! Back in the 80's, I thought our Sparky was ready to be left uncrated. We came home & as I peered in the window of the door, I see paper. Alot of paper. Everywhere. He pulled every book off the bookshelf & ripped them up, including our wedding album.

About 4.5yrs ago, I was doing my hair & heard a yelp. Ginger had bit thru a cord & got a jolt.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Luxidog said:


> Maybe i'll start a topic about training methods.. There are many things to do to calm a dog and then leaving it alone in babysteps.


Good idea.

There was very little said in the first 10 posts on this thread that required another 108 posts to reinforce.


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