# buy trained dog



## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Hello,

I have moved to a new house since 5 months. I have 3 cats and two 3 year old kids (twins). The house (my father used to live) has a big garden and many many windows/doors (40 according to the alarm). The cats can be controlled and stay in the house and the kids never play in the garden unattended.

Me personally I leave the house (weekdays) from 0730 to 1700 for work. This time my wife is home or drops the kids at school going for shopping, cooking etc. We also have a lady to help us with the housework and kids. The house has a fence but not big enough and anyone can jump in. My wife and I sleep quite heavily and sometimes don't listen to noises.

For time that I am out of the house but and for the time that I am in I want a guard dog, as sometimes I feel unsecured and I have been suggested to buy a ready trained dog instead of a puppy who will definitely need more time and sometimes doesn't grow as a guard. My experience with dogs is higher than average and I had various breeds of dogs, cats, birds, hamsters but never a trained one.

My question is: a professional told me that he found me a very well trained malinois from Germany, 15 months old, grown with the trainer's family (he has two kids 8 and 10 years old). I understand that the kids should never be alone with such dog, but please tell me if I make the right choice, i.e. to buy a well trained dog (at euro 5000 approximately) instead of a puppy, as I want a guard dog immediately ?

Thanks.


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## War (Oct 1, 2007)

There is a huge difference between a guard dog and a watch dog.
A watchdog barks an alarm when someone comes tothe house and a trained guard dog will attack someone that comes into the house.
Just get a puppy or an adult dog that people would be afraid of
Good choices would be a German Shepherd, Doberman Pinscher, Mastiff
By thier looks alone they should deter anyone that would want to break in
Personally I wouldnt chance it with 2 youngins in the house
In the meantime invest in a good alarm system for the house


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

My first question would be what type of training has this dog had? Besides knowing he's a "well trained, 15 mnth old, malinois" what else do you know. Health? Background? Lines? What type of training? 

I personally wouldn't buy a guard dog. If you want to train him to be loyal and know when to alert you etc that's fine. But buying a dog just to stand as a guard; no. 

Not to menion that's around $7000 isn't it? 
1 euro is about 70p in English money, and a pound buys $2.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I'll be honest, I think a malinois from working lines with the type of prey drive that those dogs seem to have an no particular bond to your family (particularly the cats, to be honest) is an accident waiting to happen.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for prompt replies.

I have already invested to an alarm system however I enable it only at bedtime. During daytime, when I am absent, in the house is sometimes only the housework lady and the house is exposed. Also some other times my wife and kids are in the basement and they don't hear anything, even the bell - similarly when we sleep we hear nothing.

I know the difference of an alert dog with a trained dog and when I wrote trained malinois I meant a male, 15 months old, with basic training and bite training. My dealer who will fly at Holland to buy the dog from the breeder will present me all the medical tests, x-rays and lines.

I will definitely watch my kids, never leave them unattended and throughout my whole experience with the dogs that I had with my father and especially the dogs that my friends had over time, I noticed that the puppies never ended up as scheduled, except in the case that an enormous effort and time has been given by owners, which in my case is impossible, as I have to concentrate mainly in my work and kids.

Therefore, provided that I want a guard dog and not an alert dog I concluded to buy I ready one, in order to avoid the dog to become like the ones in my neighbor, i.e. only barking, unsocial, and when their owners have visits the just lock the dog somewhere, to avoid unpleasant situations with guests. Finally everybody can take out these dogs, as they seem to eat anything offered by anyone and therefore can easily be taken out by one person with poisoned bait.

Thanks


Edit: dogstar I just saw your reply and I will avoid to enter the dog inside the house, he will live in the garden and when I will limit him in one side of the garden then I will let the cats out, which cats have already grown (6 & 7 y.o.) in an apartment.


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> I'll be honest, I think a malinois from working lines with the type of prey drive that those dogs seem to have an no particular bond to your family (particularly the cats, to be honest) is an accident waiting to happen.


Not only that, but the lines in Germany are much smarter and up front; if that makes sense. Training will be different. It's very possible things could turn bad. If he's used to his trainer/handler; he's not just going to transfer over and stay with commands. It's a lot harder than just buying a dog, he's trained, I'll put him out in the yard, he'll guard the house. That's how you end up having an extremely aggressive dog.




> case that an enormous effort and time has been given by owners, which in my case is impossible, as I have to concentrate mainly in my work and kids.


I don't think you're understanding the situation you're getting into. If you don't have the time to simply train a dog there is no way this dog would stay stable. These dogs take *constant* training, socalizing, even more training and the bite command alone I wouldn't want to risk around kids. Yes this dog is "trained". That doesn't mean you can get him and he'll forever stay trained. 

You can't expect him to go after any one that comes into your yard.



> Finally everybody can take out these dogs, as they seem to eat anything offered by anyone and therefore can easily be taken out by one person with poisoned bait.


Again unless you're there to directly tell him "leave it" or what ever the command is; he's a dog, if it were meat chances are he's eat it too.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

I have been told from the dealer who is also a dog trainer. That no one can enter the house. I prefer people to read the sign, something like "big dog inside, hit the bell and wait".

Provided that the dealer is trainer he will come at a regular intervals to train the dog and I will try maintenance. Also I have been told by various persons that these dogs are trained to be sold and after a couple of weeks they see me as the owner, it is first time to receive a comment like that. Are you sure that I shouldn't buy this dog? Or maybe a milder German Shepherd?



TeddieXRuxpin said:


> You can't expect him to go after any one that comes into your yard.
> 
> Again unless you're there to directly tell him "leave it" or what ever the command is; he's a dog, if it were meat chances are he's eat it too.



Edit I just re-read your post and you say that even a trained dog eats poisoned bait? Didn't know that.


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

mikee said:


> I have been told from the dealer who is also a dog trainer. *That no one can enter the house*. I prefer people to read the sign, something like "big dog inside, hit the bell and wait".
> 
> Provided that the dealer is trainer he will come at a regular intervals to train the dog and I will try maintenance. Also I have been told by various persons that these dogs are trained to be sold and after a couple of weeks they see me as the owner, it is first time to receive a comment like that. Are you sure that I shouldn't buy this dog? Or maybe a milder German Shepherd?
> 
> ...


The "no one is aloud in the house" is one thing, but in the yard? Front yard? My dogs wouldn't let a stranger in the house either, unless the're told it's ok. But these are loyal companions that are yes, basic trained. That means sit, down, wait, leave it, etc. not bite intuition.

I can understand not wanting someone to come into your house, but a "larger" dog that is simply a companion and has basic training would be enough to make some one think twice about messing with your family. If you came up to my house and heard the barking; there is no way you'd want to come in unless you knew me. lol I have five dogs right now. A total of about 225 pounds of lovable dog smoosh. A 70 poun Lab/Doberman, 60lbs Malamute/Corgi, 40lbs Heeler mix, 40lbs American Pit Bull Mix, and 15 pound Shih Tzu. 

A dog doesn't know the difference between meat and poisoned meat. Don't get me wrong; if you tell a well trained dog to "leave it" (or what ever the command may be) he will/should leave it. On the other hand if you're gone, he's out in the yard and some one throws a treat or a nice piece of meat what's going to hold him back from eating it? This isn't a super dog.



> Are you sure that I shouldn't buy this dog? Or maybe a milder German Shepherd


I can't tell you what to buy; I have no clue who you are. However I try my best to explain my opinion. If I were you I would flee from this breeder. 

I'm not sure where you live, but this sounds both potentially dangerous and outrageous.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Most theives watch a house before they burgle it, and don't enter when people are there. Enable the alarm when you guys leave. Dogs are animals, pets, family - not living security systems. I think the whole thing is a bad idea. What does your wife and housekeeper think about having an attack dog in the house?


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

TeddieXRuxpin, Thanks a lot for detailed reply. I live in Athens, Greece, I am 38 y.o. married with wife and two kids. If I understand correctly you suggest to buy a puppy and give it basic training only.

Do you have experience in trained dog like the one I am planning to buy? Have you heard incident where such dogs attack members of the family? Because the dealer told me that he has sold many and only the ones left without maintenance or regular training turned out extremely aggressive. I invited him in my house met him with my family and surroundings and he promised me that he will find a dog suitable for my family environment.

Also what about buy a german shepherd with only basic training?

Thanks again for your help.

Jesirose, they convinced by the trainer that things will go normal. Also why this dog cant be part of my family?

Now since I received so many negative replies I try reconsider, just please if anyone has or heard a similar case, I would like to read his comments


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## TeddieXRuxpin (Sep 11, 2007)

mikee said:


> TeddieXRuxpin, Thanks a lot for detailed reply. I live in Athens, Greece, I am 38 y.o. married with wife and two kids. If I understand correctly you suggest to buy a puppy and give it basic training only.


Nope. Don't have to get a puppy and no you don't have to have a dog with only basic taining. 

Simply/logically, this dog isn't just going to transfer over to your household and stay completely trained if not on the same schedule. These dogs take weekly/every day training. That means some one in your house would have to keep up with not only his personal needs, but also the hours or training that go hand in hand. 

You can get a dog/puppy from a reputable breeder or even a dog from a rescue with potential. There are several people here on this forum with rescue dogs that have their CGC (canine good citizen) and other levels of training. You start with basic training and build up. 

From my point of view a trained dog with bite training in the wrong hands is like a loaded weapon in the wong hands. It can be dangerous, deadly, and can cause plenty of harm. 

Another little something to keep in mind is both GSD and malinois have A LOT of energy. Not a dog that can be in just the back yard or in the house all day. They need walks, runs, play time etc.



> Do you have experience in trained dog like the one I am planning to buy? Have you heard incident where such dogs attack members of the family? Because the dealer told me that he has sold many and *only the ones left without maintenance or regular training turned out extremely aggressive*. I invited him in my house met him with my family and surroundings and he promised me that he will find a dog suitable for my family environment.


I am not a trainer, but I do have a friend that is in the dog training field. Not bite intuition type of training either. I've so gone through training with all of my dogs and fosters. So I've had my far share; four current dogs, six past fosters and one current foster. Though I have heard and read about the dogs that don't _work out_. 

You've already stated you don't have the time when it came to the basic training. Basic training is a whole heck of a lot easier to keep up with than intense training. If you *aren't* able to keep up with maintenance do you want to take the risk of having a powerful dog such as a malinois in your house or yard that is aggressive? That dog would take a lot to get back out of the aggression if he was even able to. Should the dog be in that situation to start with? 



> Also what about buy a german shepherd with only basic training?


I would think more along those lines before the malinois from this "dealer". A family dog that is well trained would do more for you in the long run than a taught gaurd dog. A dog with a bond to your family has a bigger reason to stop an intruder than a dog you bought to guard your house.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Because it doesn't sound like you're getting it to be a family pet, you're getting it to be a guard dog. If you really want it to be part of the family too, that's fine, but you yourself said you don't have much time. 

In my mind 3 year old children + trained guard dog != happy family pet outcome.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

OK, I'm going to put this very plainly, No, I don't think this is a good idea. 
Quit simply, a GOOD gaurd/watch dog needs to be BONDED with it's family. Any breed of working dog will have more tendancy to protect it's family IF it's bonded to them BEFORE training has started and OWNER HANDLED through training. Basically, a good protection dog will be a PART of your family. 

That means getting a pup, no older than 6 months (that's how old my Dobe was when I got her) that has been raised in a home with small children and SOCIALIZED so they aren't aggressive to invited guests or in public. A dog the age of this Mali and not bonded to your family will be a bite risk to your family, employees and friends. iT IS A LIABILITY you DON'T NEED AROUND. 

I would go wit ha younger dog, from a REPUTABLE breeder that is close to you. I know there are some great Dobe lines in Greece, my girl is from one of them and she is the sweetest dog with our family, well bonded to us.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

mikee said:


> TeddieXRuxpin, Thanks a lot for detailed reply. I live in Athens, Greece, I am 38 y.o. married with wife and two kids. If I understand correctly you suggest to buy a puppy and give it basic training only.
> 
> Do you have experience in trained dog like the one I am planning to buy? Have you heard incident where such dogs attack members of the family? Because the dealer told me that he has sold many and only the ones left without maintenance or regular training turned out extremely aggressive. I invited him in my house met him with my family and surroundings and he promised me that he will find a dog suitable for my family environment.
> 
> ...


Let's try this, 15 months versus well trained dog versus new family. Not going to happen. Understand this it's your family and your right to do what you want. I spent 15 yrs doing protection work and sold dogs. I would get calls from people with Shepherds, Dobes, Rotts etc wanting me to train their dogs to attack burglars but not the mailman etc. They also wanted dogs to be kid proof. I did not do any protection work on clients dogs until they were 18 mths old as they may already have a dog that is more than they can handle without bite work entering the program. Dogs that I sold were dogs I raised and trained from pups and at age 2 they were sold to proper owners who were paired with the correct dog. An alert type dog and a security system and you, are the best protection progam you can have. You, Dog, System are partners. As somebody above has already mentioned burglars would rather go to a home with no dog, also if this dog is going to defend home while your not at home a professional burglar will kill the dog and take what he wants. I never cared what anybody stole from my home, when I or family were not home as I can replace that stuff. I want a large type barking dog that says hello and while he's saying hello I'm fetching gun, baseball bat, knife, prayer, whatever to help dog after dialing 911. That being said I had some outright butt kickers through the years that lived in my home but I am a dog trainer. If a burglar came I had the type of dog that I could make a pot of coffee and then go see what dog left me. I'm being a little facetious but I doubt if you have the type of experience needed to handle such a dog.


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## Criosphynx (May 15, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Let's try this, 15 months versus well trained dog versus new family. Not going to happen. Understand this it's your family and your right to do what you want. I spent 15 yrs doing protection work and sold dogs. I would get calls from people with Shepherds, Dobes, Rotts etc wanting me to train their dogs to attack burglars but not the mailman etc. They also wanted dogs to be kid proof. I did not do any protection work on clients dogs until they were 18 mths old as they may already have a dog that is more than they can handle without bite work entering the program. Dogs that I sold were dogs I raised and trained from pups and at age 2 they were sold to proper owners who were paired with the correct dog. An alert type dog and a security system and you, are the best protection progam you can have. You, Dog, System are partners.* As somebody above has already mentioned burglars would rather go to a home with no dog, also if this dog is going to defend home while your not at home a professional burglar will kill the dog and take what he wants.* I never cared what anybody stole from my home, when I or family were not home as I can replace that stuff. I want a large type barking dog that says hello and while he's saying hello I'm fetching gun, baseball bat, knife, prayer, whatever to help dog after dialing 911. That being said I had some outright butt kickers through the years that lived in my home but I am a dog trainer. If a burglar came I had the type of dog that I could make a pot of coffee and then go see what dog left me. I'm being a little facetious but I doubt if you have the type of experience needed to handle such a dog.



I agree! 

Buglars either care about the dog or they don't. It could be a malinois or a chihuahua. If its barking and alerting people and they aren't comfortable with that, they will move on. If they really want the house they will kill the dog. Its that simple.


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## Noel Redwood (Jun 20, 2008)

mikee said:


> ... I live in Athens, Greece, I am 38 y.o. married with wife and two kids...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Its hard to speak to your situation as I'm unfamiliar with Greece. Living in America, almost all of the time any dog that will loudly bark at strangers and alert owners is enough for security b/c most homeowners are well-armed. Intruders don't know whether the dog will attack (especially if its the bark of a good sized dog) and the chance that owners will attack an intruder with deadly force is high enough to dissuade. 

In situations where more is needed from the dog, people get what we call "Personal Protection Dogs". There are different levels of training, usually the first level is sufficient for most circumstances. Usually this means on and off leash obedience, bark alert, bite-release-return, etc. 

If you decide to do it yourself, a well-bred German Shepherd will naturally bond with and defend his family and territory and with normal obedience training this provides quite a bit of protection (the biggest problem is that they sometimes take a dislike to someone you don't want chased and bitten). I've never owned a Belgian Malinois and can't speak to those, but I would be very surprised if a well-bred, trained GSD became aggressive toward its family. 

Most importantly, either way, handlers/owners have to work and take the time to learn to handle the dog and would have to provide daily exercise, training and play. But there's no reason that such a dog could not with proper diligence become a great family pet. 

In America, a good Personal Protection Dog would cost a bit more than the price you mentioned and the trainers/sellers require you to be trained and require regular contact and refresher training as needed.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

The dealer has a vested interest in you purchasing a dog, so I'd take his claims with a grain of salt unless you know a number of people who have bought dogs from him- and not just recently. How are those dogs working 3 years, 5 years down the road? The dog is going to need daily interaction and training- and not just in bitework, but in order to feel bonded to and be USED to listening to you. If you cannot call this dog off- if you think it doesn't need tolisten to you? How are you going to feel if a neighborhood kid climbs over the fence to grab a ball or play a prank and gets mauled? Frankly, I think GUNS are much safer as a means of home defense than a dog that has been TRAINED to bite if you're not looking to put a great deal of time into maintenance. I take it that isn't a legal option wehre you are, though.  

A large-breed- any of the protection breeds, really, but I'd go for imposing and intimidating (Mals really *aren't* that intimidating unless you know what they can do, LOL ). The dog needs to be a member of the family. If you don't have time for a pup, look for an older pup or young adult with basic obedience. Bond with the dog, train the dog in protection if you want to- but YOU need to realize how much commitment and awareness goes into this, which really isn't coming across in your posts. It may be a language thing, but I really worry that what you just want is an alarm system with teeth. 

Realistically, I think it'd be cheaper to get a really excellent alarm and get together with your neighbors to put together a neighborhood watch group or hire security if the neighborhood is that bad. Or put up a better fence. Or both. Because as wonderful as dogs are, they are NOT a fix-it-all for this problem.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

I don't think it's unthinkable for someone to want a security dog as long as they understand the amount of work it takes and don't treat the dog as just a security system; it MUSt be part of the family too (this means not living outside 24/7).

Linkin was PP trained but I haven't kept up with it because I don't have the equipment and help I need where I'm living right now. I've noticed his training slowly declining, and I'm fine with that. I never completely WANTED a PP trained dog, it was just one of the options when I was at school. The one command I've always kept up with was his "OUT" which is his command to stop any "aggressive" behavior he may be showing. To me the Out command is a lot more important than the dogs ability to attack or alert.

My instructor informed us that having a PP trained dog is a LOT different than a regular pet dog and went over all the cautions with us. When I first got back I saw these first hand with Linkin. I took him up town to show my old boss his improvement in training and when we were in the office his new tech came out and right away (without asking) reached out to pet Linkin. Linkin growled and I gave him the Out command, so he stopped right away and was then introduced to the tech properly. Linkin was/is the most happy-go-lucky, friendly dog, he loves meeting new people, but for the first couple months of being back I had to watch his reactions carefully when meeting new people because if he saw someone as being suspicious he felt the need to take it into his own 'paws' to protect me.

Like I said, this training has dwindled because I haven't kept up with it, which is also why it's so important to work with the dog at LEAST once a week for PP work and daily for obedience.

I agree with the above posters, I think a family dog that looks the part and alerts when needed will probably do the trick. My other dog Coal is one of these dogs, and more people are scared of his appearance and deep bark than they are of my goofy-eared Linkin


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DogGone
I Love your statement. 

*I had to watch his reactions carefully when meeting new people because if he saw someone as being suspicious he felt the need to take it into his own 'paws' to protect me.*

You did good and handled your dog to keep him out of trouble. That's the scary part not having the knowledge to keep dogs out of trouble. Keep working your dog because that program is not going to disappear entirely, he has with your help put it on a backburner.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

wvasko said:


> DogGone
> I Love your statement.
> 
> *I had to watch his reactions carefully when meeting new people because if he saw someone as being suspicious he felt the need to take it into his own 'paws' to protect me.*
> ...


Thank you.

Yes, it would be kind of nice (and fun!) to keep up both his PP training and his tracking (he looooves tracking) but unfortunately I just don't have the resources for it right now


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DogGoneGood said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Yes, it would be kind of nice (and fun!) to keep up both his PP training and his tracking (he looooves tracking) but unfortunately I just don't have the resources for it right now


Not necessary for PP work just keep up standard obed. which it sounds like you already are because you always want to have a handle on your dog, and down the road if you decide you can always kick it up a notch. The tracking end buy a book and have some fun all you need is an empty field and you can lay your own track, a tracking harness, long lead some flags so you know where your track is and it's fun.


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## ILuvLucy (May 3, 2008)

DogGoneGood said:


> I agree with the above posters, I think a family dog that looks the part and alerts when needed will probably do the trick. My other dog Coal is one of these dogs, and more people are scared of his appearance and deep bark than they are of my goofy-eared Linkin



Yes, more people will be scared off by a dog simply because it is black. Hence "black dog syndrome"


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for all the truly helpful responses and advices.
I read carefully all posts some of them twice to be sure.
I am going to contact him to cancel the Malinois.

Still have couple of questions though, for which I would appreciate a direct reply if possible, like for example cshellenberger's "OK, I'm going to put this very plainly, No, I don't think this is a good idea" and wvasko's "Let's try this, 15 months versus well trained dog versus new family. Not going to happen"

1) When you say family dog you mean a dog that I own from puppy and has received some basic training or a ready older personal protection dog as said above, which is different from the guard dog in terms of aggression? Is it better to forget buying older dog and concentrate on a puppy not more than 5 months old?

2) One of the trainer suggestions is that I can buy a puppy from Germany, keep it until 6-7 months and then send it back to Germany or Holland to receive the training. Would this be better (provided that there are better trainers there) than to keep from puppy and give him basic training at home?

3) If I get a German Shepherd (supposed to be THE family dog) at what age I can be sure that he hasn't inherited any dysplasia? Now that my trainer is Holland/Germany what about to ask him to bring me a German Shepherd puppy from there, and he starts training it after some months?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Mikee

*"Let's try this, 15 months versus well trained dog versus new family. Not going to happen"*

1. 15 month old and well trained, depending on individual dog could still have a bunch of immaturity, well trained and immaturity don't go together. The average age of mature dogs is 3 yrs old. Now this does not mean there are no 15 month old dogs that are not well trained it just means there will or could be some maturity problems. 
2. Now add a brand new home with an inexperienced handler and family to boot and possible bonding problems. People sometimes think that having your dog trained is like going to a car mechanic and having a new battery installed in their car, push-pull, click-click and your car-dog is done. A dog is a living breathing creature with all the strong-weak points that are possible with such. Once you train a dog to bite people that's what you have, a dog that's not scared to bite and also has been enhanced to bite people. Now life is choices, I know nothing about the trainer you have mentioned, you are there these choices are yours.
3. I like a pup 7 to 8 weeks old that can grow up in my home and with my family(just 2 of us, no kids now) The main reason I like them that young is I don't want some Yahoo/jerk starting my pup. 
4. You keep mentioning training so it appears you do not want to or don't have time/knowledge to train your own dog. You being in Greece may be a factor, not like here where there are training programs everywhere for the average person. I would keep pup at home for 6 months and then send it out if you think it's necessary. I would be checking references a bunch before I sent my dog out. Keep one thought in mind, I do not know anything about the personal problems involved that you feel the need for a protection dog. If you really need a butt-kicker then that's a different story. Here we have a lot of people that are involved with PP dogs because it's macho not because it's actually a necessary thing.
5. German Shepherds, 2 yrs of age with no hip problems for sure you are safe. I told people that I would rather gamble on hip problems because I was more interested in what's in the brains department.


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## Esther (Jul 2, 2008)

I have no experience with this particular subject, nor with guard or watch dogs, but I'd like to share some personal experience. Perhaps it's usefull.
When I bought my first dog, a hunting dog, called Boef, I had read several 'expert'-books about dog training, socializing and so on and since I wanted to train my own dog as a companion I went to puppytraining, and later on to hunting training with several different trainers, and I went to several different workshops. Also I consulted with a dogbehaviorist(?) on a couple of issues and joint a forum where several behaviorists and people who have had dogs for many years, gave tips and directions (like this forum). Recapitulized: I am a serious dogowner who makes sure to be well informed in theory and spends a lot of time in practice with my dogs. As a result Boef has grown up to be a very easy going, basically well trained dog, who is flexible and could deal with many different situations without any problems, and I had learned to read my dog good.
A year ago I met my partner who lives in Estonia (I live in Holland and Boef was living in Holland too at that time) and soon made plans to emigrate. For practical reasons Boef already has moved to Estonia last january, and I visit regularly. My partner owns polar dogs and has a lot of experience in training his dogs. For Boef his move was difficult since his environment totally changed from what he was used to. Because hunting dogs have a very different character from polardogs, in spite of his experience my partner had difficulty understanding Boef and at some point Boef reacted agressively towards my partner and bit him. I was astonished. How could my sweet and lovable and easy goinig Boef have bitten anyone?
Now hunting dogs are trained to be soft in their bite, so there were no serieus consequences. Also we understand why the incident took place and know how to accompany Boef in the same kind of situations in the future. 
The point that I want to make is that a dog is a complex living being and his behavior, how well trained it me be by one person, is dependent on all factors that play a role in his life. How any dog experiences any change in his life, how minor or major it me be, cannot be predicted. So, taking in a puppy, having the puppy trained by someone else from a certain age, in your own environment, or somewhere else, does not garanty a succesful result. You don't know how the dog is going to react to being temporarily placed in a different environment and then move back to you. Especially between puppy time and full adulthood (at 2 or sometimes 3 years old) a dog may change his behaviorpattern, and is even less predictable. I think any guarentees of any breeder in any direction are naieve. Building up a bond with your dog, controlling your dog and making the dog predictable for you (knowing which type of behavior is going to follow on how he looks, how he moves, what sound he makes, in which types of situations etc.) can in my opinion only be accomplished when YOU spend a lot of time with your dog. No one else can take up that role for you, and with your goal and in your situation I think you may be taking a serieus risk.
Good luck with your decision


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Both wvasko and Esther made some very good points.

I personally am very uncomfrotable with the idea of sending a young pup (or any dog for that matter) away for training and then get them back some period of time later. Maybe I'm just a paranoid person, but no matter how much I looked into the trainer and no matter how much I knew them I still wouldn't trust them enough to send my dog to stay with them to be trained. I've had no previous experiences with this but have heard some stories. This doesn't mean every trainer who offers these services is bad and I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying personally it's not at the top of my list.

Not only is there the trust factor, but also the idea this puppy may become unbalanced from being shipped back and forth and that you wouldn't completely bond with the puppy the way you would if you were able to have a trainer work with YOU with the dog rather than just with the dog. I've actually had a surprising amount of people ask me to just train their dog (like drop it off at my house and pick it up later), and these people all live within a 20 minute drive of me! I tell them no, I don't just train the dog I train the owner too. Trianing is an investment for life and if you are unequipped to keep training up (which should be done every day) you are most likely unequiped to own that dog. This doesn't mean you can't _learn_ how, I'm very tolerent of people who are simply ignorent towards training. My point is simply that the outcome would be a LOT more in your favor (and good all around for the dog) if you were able to have a trainer come to you, or go to classes, or whatever method you choose to work WITH the dog.

Ugh, I hope this all makes sense, my brain doesn't function as well in the mornings as it does the late afternoons.

ETA - wvasko, I'm going to send you a PM so as not to highjack this thread


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Esther

*The point that I want to make is that a dog is a complex living being and his behavior, how well trained it me be by one person, is dependent on all factors that play a role in his life. How any dog experiences any change in his life, how minor or major it me be, cannot be predicted. So, taking in a puppy, having the puppy trained by someone else from a certain age, in your own environment, or somewhere else, does not garanty a succesful result. You don't know how the dog is going to react to being temporarily placed in a different environment and then move back to you. Especially between puppy time and full adulthood (at 2 or sometimes 3 years old) a dog may change his behaviorpattern, and is even less predictable. I think any guarentees of any breeder in any direction are naieve. Building up a bond with your dog, controlling your dog and making the dog predictable for you (knowing which type of behavior is going to follow on how he looks, how he moves, what sound he makes, in which types of situations etc.) can in my opinion only be accomplished when YOU spend a lot of time with your dog.*

I got to agree with the above. You hit the nail on the head.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Mikee
> 
> *"Let's try this, 15 months versus well trained dog versus new family. Not going to happen"*
> 
> ...


 Excellent advice. I think it is scary when people want to fall for a well trained 18 months old dog. Usually, well trained dogs take longer to develop and mature because their youth brain can't handle many things yet. 

Also, I'm involved with personal protection too; however, I don't sell or train dogs. My ex boyfriend was a decoy and involved with selling and training dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

DogGoneGood
I'm a trainer who strictly deals with dogs that are dropped off and spend anywhere from 30 to 45 days in board/training. The types of dogs I deal with are from owners too busy or seniors or just dogs poorly started with problems. I tell people that call if there is an obedience class that they can join to go that way.
As I told OP (only because he keeps mentioning trainer) to get references because as a trainer I know there are a lot of idiot trainers out there that should not be allowed near a leash, let alone a dog.


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

wvasko said:


> DogGoneGood
> I'm a trainer who strictly deals with dogs that are dropped off and spend anywhere from 30 to 45 days in board/training. The types of dogs I deal with are from owners too busy or seniors or just dogs poorly started with problems. I tell people that call if there is an obedience class that they can join to go that way.
> As I told OP (only because he keeps mentioning trainer) to get references because as a trainer I know there are a lot of idiot trainers out there that should not be allowed near a leash, let alone a dog.


Oh yes, there are deffinetly a lot of trainers out there who don't necessarily know anything about dogs, behavior and/or training!

I just said I personally wouldn't do it, but I think I'm kind of over-protective of my dogs lol My isntructor at school did the same kind of training (as well as group classes and one on one lessons with owner and dog) and he said the number one thing was that once the dog was done it's training he had to work with both owner and dog and make sure the owner knows how to handle the dog and keep up it's training. He said it doesn't always go over though and that quite often months or some time later the dog ends up getting dropped off again because the training had been completely undone by the owners lack of knowledge or lack of time and willingness to keep up the training.

I think that if people do go this route they should STILL also learn how to keep up the training.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Ring

*Excellent advice. I think it is scary when people want to fall for a well trained 18 months old dog. Usually, well trained dogs take longer to develop and mature because their youth brain can't handle many things yet.*

That's what spooked me in the beginning because it was a 15 mth Malinois. The OP says he is not going that way though. Scary describes my feelings exactly.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

First I am lucky to find this forum couple of weeks before order the dog, it maybe saved me from serious consequences.

Now I canceled the dog and will proceed to get a puppy german shepherd, like I always wanted.

Just because there is a huge difference between where I live and U.S., can you point me on how to choose right trainer (out of few that there are here)?

Thanks


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

mikee said:


> First I am lucky to find this forum couple of weeks before order the dog, it maybe saved me from serious consequences.
> 
> Now I canceled the dog and will proceed to get a puppy german shepherd, like I always wanted.
> 
> ...


mikee
I will just tell you what I tell potential clients, I have more references than they have time to call. Then it's up to you to spend time calling and checking them out.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I don't know of any good breeders in Greece, but you REALLY need to research the GSD before purchasing one. You need to know if you want show lines or working lines, you need to be absolutely POSITIVE on the temperament you want and be VERY CLEAR with the breeder! On top of that, you MUST be willing to keep this dog mentally stimulated, or there will be big trouble


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## DogGoneGood (Jun 22, 2008)

Mikee, I'm glad to hear you're taking everyone's advice.

Looking for a trainer will depend on who's available in your surrounding areas, and HOW you want to train your dog. It also depends on your dog as an individual. If you can find a trainer open to all methods besides the ones they use regularly that's always good, in case their methods don't suit the dog. The should be willing to bend their methods and try to do what works for the dog.

I for one don't use treats while training obedience, but it doesn't mean I don't see a place for them for some circumstances and some dogs.

And yes, refrences are good. Ask any potential trainers for refrences and ask them as many questions about their methods as you see fit. A good trainer shouldn't have a problem giving out both.

The same basically applies to finding a breeder; they should have no problem giving out refrences and answering questions (and will probably ask a lot of questions themselves). And as Xeph pointed out, you need to do your research on the breed before purchasing and decide what type of lines you want.


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## debbie51975 (Jul 2, 2008)

Our German Sheperd Bo, originally had basic training, then he moved in with a famil for a while till his home was forclosed on, then he wound back up at the trainers. While Bo was used by the trainer to help our local police department train there's, he was ONLY taught basics with the other dogs and NOT bite training. 

I have 4 kids and TONS of neighbor kids. They're constantly scaling fences for baseballs and what not. Bo hasn't been taught to be an aggressor. but he is very well trained in other ways. I can tell him to stay and walk a mile down the road with kids dogs bikes and cars to tempt him, but he won't budge. YET, he is still very well suited with the kids. They don't fear him, so the dog isn't sensing tension.

My fear would be, taking a dog is taught to be aggressive into a home with kids, and the kids KNOWING it, might cause that panic and therefore the dog sensing this, would be in control. 

I see why you want to protect your family, but to be honest, Bo's doing that just by his appearance. When other folks are out walking, they purposely walk over to the other side of the street. His bark is huge. If someone trys to break in they're going to get a face full of teeth in the window! I know he won't bite, BUT the intruder doesn't. That alone makes me feel safe.

I agree with the above poster who said getting a basic trained dog. Bo has worked out great for us. 

But if you've got your heart set, I'd make sure that this dog has no problem with your kids before I paid for it.

I should add, for someone with no time, this could also be a problem. I gotta a US Marshal next door with a trained German Sheperd. He's strictly a work dog. Anyway, he has to work with that dog DAILY. He walks him every morning at 4am. He circles our development about three times. Then his dog attends the training classes (same trainer Bo was staying with), EVERY monday night 5:30 to 8pm for socialization, the on Thursday more training for bite training etc. He said their training has to maintained for public safety. So, you have to have plenty of time.

I'm a MORON! Sorry...didn't see the above post....glad your getting a new pup! Congrats


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

Mikee - check around your area for dog clubs, especially clubs that focus on working or sport (schutzhund, agility, herding, ring sport). GSDs tend be split into "show" and "working" lines, and dog clubs tend to be split into "breed" clubs that focus on conformation showing and sport clubs that focus on training dogs of any breed for a particular type of work. I would stay away from show lines and clubs especially if you think you might want to train your dog for protection or competitive dog sport. Go to some club events, watch the dogs in action, ask around about what is desirable in a family protection dog. It will take time but when you buy a puppy you are investing in something that will last for a decade or more.

Ideally the pup's parents should have the KKL1 or KKL2 designation (the parent SV club's breed suitability title). It IS possible to get working titles on dogs with inferior temperaments, with the right trainer and judge, so you need to be very cautious, and ask around about the parent's accomplishments. This means getting to know some people in clubs. It takes time.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

wyx, thanks for advices, it definitely takes time but although I live in Athens which is capital city, things are not developed like U.S. 

At this point I have found an offer to order a working line german shepherd directly from Germany with high costs involved, 1500 euro for the dog and some others for transportation.

I have another offer for 13 months german shepherd with basic obedience and very good with kids (at least I have been told so, I haven't seen the dog yet),
Since all previous members convinced me to proceed with a puppy, I maybe forget this dog or maybe I shouldn't? 

Now I am somewhere between working line german shepherd and a doberman (the later with less possibilities).

Finally these clubs are way more rare in Greece but will see, now I am looking everywhere.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

mikee said:


> wyx, thanks for advices, it definitely takes time but although I live in Athens which is capital city, things are not developed like U.S.
> 
> At this point I have found an offer to order a working line german shepherd directly from Germany with high costs involved, 1500 euro for the dog and some others for transportation.
> 
> ...


mikee
Remember, you are there, nobody on forum is able to help with that. If you want check out the 13 mth old Shepherd, check out the owner etc Will he allow health check. Can some kind of contract, warranty be worked out on dog so he can be returned if he is not what the owner says he is, just asking the right questions will help your decision. The 15 mth old Malinois had bite work training, hopefully this dog hasn't. There are thousands of young dogs that people buy, rescue etc that are great dogs and work out well with their new families. Dog Forum is nice, but you are the one who has to dive in and get your feet wet. Good luck.
wvasko


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The 13 months old may well turn out OK, but I'd be sure there is some kind of agreement that you can return him if it doesn't work out as 'wvasco' said.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Just want to add this....

I have had two German Shepherds I raised from puppies. My first dog, Kazi, was used to herd cattle on my farm (I thought.. shepherd.. well lets give it a try and it worked). 
She was all East German lines and her lines were all working Schutzhund (I think I spelled that right) lines. 

Kazi RARELY barked at anyone and often thought her role in life was to be the Official Greeter at the farm (sort of like the Walmart Greeter). ONE TIME she went for someone.. and he was a trapper and covered with animal attracting scents he used in his trapping. Due to her herd training I gave her the off command and she literally stopped in mid air and fell in a heap at this man's feet. BTW he never came back and asked to trap on our farm again (wonder why?). Kazi weighed 95 pounds. She was a real good dog. 

Now I have Atka. She is about 25% German working lines and the rest is mostly show ring title lines. She shows the same interest in herding as Kazi did and if Kazi was the official Greeter, Atka is evern friendlier! Her attitude is "the more people the better and any people will do!"

I DO take Atka with me a lot of places and I DO have her meet a lot of other people as I want a well socialized dog. She is truly a social butterfly.. likes people more than I do!

I am just telling you this to let you know that not every German Shepherd will bark or alert on strangers. Fact is, not every dog will bark and alert on strangers. I have seen Golden retrievers with more bark in them than the dog I have now.. or the even last dog I had from lines that were trained for this! 

I suspect, considering the breed and the lines of both these dogs that *my training is the thing at fault* and the reason they don't bark at people. However, compared to you (large house.. mansion standards from the way it sounds and being fairly wealthy.. and very hard working) I have little for Atka to guard other than me and the cats (two of the cats actually growl at people who come to the house while the dog wags her tail.. what's up with THAT?). 

The other day the Fed Ex man came to the house and was looking for the neighbor's dog (she had passed on) and I offered for him to meet my dog. I let Atka out and he nearly messed his pants as she came running at him because she is a German Shepherd.. even tho she laid at his feet on command and he petted her and found out what a friendly beast she truly is. Same thing happened with the Electric Meter Reader. He was afraid of her until he saw her work an obbedience series and then she came over to him and tried to drown him in dog kisses... :rolleye: Yes.. that is the danger with Atka.. you might get drowned in dog slobber. *sigh*

People leave me alone. They are afraid of the BREED. 

My point is, depending on how the dog is handled and how you raise your dog around people will largely depned on how the dog behaves towards strangers. However, the breed alone is enough to get a lot of people to back off. 

Atka is 18 months old. She MAY become more willing to alert as she gets older, but after Kazi I doubt it. With Kazi people said, 'wait till she is 3.. she will start then' and she never did and I had her to age 14.

Considering your situation, do you think if protection is truly an issue, can you afford a human service days while you are at work? Do you have enough crime or problems where you live to warrant that? That way you can relax and enjoy the dog. Of course, you have to have a service with reliable people and that can be an issue too.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

*I suspect, considering the breed and the lines of both these dogs that my training is the thing at fault and the reason they don't bark at people. *

elana has a problem she thinks her training is at fault, I think sometimes people don't understand that not all dogs can be trained to do exactly what we would like them to do. It does not mean the dogs are stupid or the owners are incompetent. It would be like a 4ft man trying to be a NBA basketball player. He just does not have the body to do the job. He may be a great basketball player for his size but that's as far as it goes. You would not blame his coach for the lack of size. Some dogs just as some people can only do so much. Working ability, training ability, genes, environment all play a part to shape the dog's program. One last thing her Atka is only 18 months old and is in all probability only half the dog she will be down the road. I know people said the same about Kazi but Kazi sounds like less talk and more walk type of dog. Anybody who can stop dog in mid jump must have something going on in the training dept.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

*Anybody who can stop dog in mid jump must have something going on in the training dept.*

Thank you for the compliment. Kazi, due to her cattle work, was trained to come off of ANYTHING when given the command "enough." She had to stop in mid jump on cattle.. sometimes I could hear her teeth click as she snapped her mouth shut and stopped in the air and then would go in the new direction when she landed. 

Atka came off a rabbit I sent her after the other night. It is imperiative that a dog, especially a herding dog, leave her current task instantly when requested to because you usually have another task in another area of the herd requiring her. 

I have owned a few dogs in my day and I NEVER had one that wasn't more like an official greeter than an alert barker. Most of my dogs just liked all people and rarealy barked. That is why, in that area, I fault my training. Maybe my dogs are TOO socialized. 

Yesterday Atka and I went for a hike on a popular trail (short walk I took my elderly Father on). My Dad commented that people gave Atka and I wide berth (except for the kids who asked to pet her.. and that was allowed and she just LOVED it). I told him that, even tho she was not making a single aggressive move, the BREED kept the people back (fine with me!). 

After the Hike thing we went to Petsmart to get cat food and cat toys (I offered Atka to choose a toy but there were too many toys and she just could not make up her mind... pretty funnneee). I had her hop up with her front feet on the shopping cart and she walked along pushing the cart. She LOVED it because she didn't have to jump up to be at everyon'e height... she was already THERE and they would pet her. 

I just hope they never let dogs in a place like Nordstrums or Tiffany's.... She is a pro at pushing that cart.. all she would need to get hold of is my Credit card.... 

My point here is the BREED usually backs people off w/o the dog needing to be aggressive. Meanwhile, my dog is not aggressive in any way.. none of my dogs ever have been. 

The other day Atka saw something and her ruff went up. I suggested she "speak.." She looked at me like I had two heads as if to say, "Look, my ruff is up because there is something scary in those trees.. now you want me to BARK so it knows I am HERE??? Are you completely NUTZ????" she stayed quiet.... 
*sigh*


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks a lot for the advices, now don't think that change my mind often but I am seriously consider what others with more knowledge have to say.

Now I am very close to buy a female puppy from this breed:


```
http://www.doberman.gr/POWERXELEKTRA/powerxelektra1.html
```
I know this is irrelevant to talk for puppy in this training sub-forum but I have been told that especially the female

```
http://www.hausliopiris.gr/ourdogs/elektra/index.htm
```
 has the best character and awards than any other in Greece and the breeder (famous here) promised me to help get the dog socialized/trained. The price is on the very high side of what I expected (bit less than 2000 Eur) and the birth will take place around 25th of July - till then I have to decide.

Well sorry but I wrote the above without opening the third page of the topic - I thought I ended at page two.

@Helena: the house is sort of wealthy but I inherited it and not built it or bought it. My salary is OK for Greece, although most of the money goes to kids, fun and house maintenance, foods etc. My neighbor is one of the good ones in Athens but not the best or one of the best. 
Crimes and problems: we had one burglary on the beginning of 2007, when my father lived still in the house. Morning security service is highly uncommon thing in Greece and people prefer dog or bodyguard. Nevertheless the temperature now here rises every other day to 40 degrees Celsius, way too hot, and almost every window is open during these hot days.

@wvasko: thanks again for all help. The dog I posted above is not exactly from strict working lines, does it matter for what I want it for (guard)?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The Dam is from the same Lines as My girls Sire.


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## Noel Redwood (Jun 20, 2008)

mikee said:


> Now I am very close to buy a female puppy from this breed:
> 
> I know this is irrelevant to talk for puppy in this training sub-forum but I have been told that especially the female...
> 
> has the best character and awards than any other in Greece and the breeder (famous here) promised me to help get the dog socialized/trained... around 25th of July - till then I have to decide...


That sounds like a good opportunity, but here are a couple more things to consider. (ceteris paribus)

GSD have high exercise requirements, but Dobies require even more exercise, being among the most vigorous breeds. 

GSD naturally make a good family dog, i.e. generally have high pack drive, are good/protective of children in the family with their herding instinct. Dobies can be as well, but some Dobies tend to bond with one person, just something to discuss w/ the breeder.

GSD's take direction naturally and excel at obedience, again as dogs with herding instinct. Dobies can be a bit more stubborn, almost mastiff-like sometimes. 

Obviously, Dobies require a lot less grooming and don't shed as much. 

Also, Dobies are on average among the best guard dogs. And they are generally better at attack training than GSD.

Generally speaking GSD are more stable, but it looks like with the breeder you're looking at this wouldn't be an issue.


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

Hey Elana - yes, the breed can be intimidating especially for people who aren't familiar enough with dogs to read their body language. An aggressive, ferocious barker who needs to be kept locked up when you have company is not what I'd want in a personal protection dog though, it is too easy for such a dog to go off on the wrong person. A happy, confident dog who is reliable with the kids, can be trained not to kill the livestock and will evaluate the situation before deciding to escalate it is what I'd want, and that sounds like what you have. I'd love to do some herding with my GSD puppy but he is busy now learning to do SAR (more training for me than for him really) and he's been started in agility so we'll probably go back to that as his secondary sport since he was getting pretty good at it (we knocked off to focus on obedience for awhile).

Anyway, Mikee, another thing you might try is actually going to Germany to watch some club events and meet people/breeders in person. If you can make some contacts there over the internet before going it would save you some time and probably some money and frustration. I would NOT buy a puppy sight unseen from a breeder you don't personally know, no matter how many awards. It might turn out fine, but there are many things that can go wrong even with a very well bred puppy's temperment or physical development. I know what it's like to have puppy fever, once you decide you're ready for one you want it RIGHT NOW  but it really is important to do a lot of research before making a commitment to one.

Another thing I'd think about is this is your first dog for your family, don't have too many expectations. In other words, don't try to get a puppy that will be the worlds best family dog, Schutzhund dog, show dog, stud dog etc. You are going to have a lot to learn training the puppy and make mistakes so I'd shoot for a puppy that has a good solid temperament and is healthy, and not go for extreme drive or champion show lines. Anyway, best of luck with it.


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

mikee said:


> @wvasko: thanks again for all help. The dog I posted above is not exactly from strict working lines, does it matter for what I want it for (guard)?



I know your question is directly for Wvasko. I can leave that question for her or him to answer; however, I want to share my opinion as well. It depends on what you are looking for. 

If you want a breed to scare everyone off, you don't need to buy a trained dog. You can buy a certain breed such as Fila, cane corso, presa canario, rottweiler, mastiff, etc. They have the "looking" to scare people off without needing any formal training, their single barking are deep and loud enough to intimidate everyone, and their size as well. They are pretty large and bulky. It does not mean they will protect your family and you. 

If you want a trained dog, then you need to go somewhere. I don't know anyone who live in Greece. If you have a family that lives in the U.S. and plan to visit them in the future, you can use that time to meet or look for local club such as schutzhund; however, I prefer a club is specific for personal protection training. However.... not all dogs that have schutzhund titles will protect their family. I have seen dogs with ScHh 3 run away from thieves and criminals. 

If you want to ask more question and find more knowledge people, I advise you to post your question on working dog forum. http://www.workingdogforum.com/ Where you might find knowledge people like Mike Schnoodle, Selena Van Leeuwen, Jerry Lyda, tim martens, etc. You can check out Wvasko's reference if you are interested to get a dog from him/her. There is nothing wrong with importing a dog out of the U.S. or Europe if you cant find anything in Greece.

IMO, I don't think you need to buy a puppy. I see nothing wrong with getting a trained adult dog, but you need to do your homework to make sure you are getting what you want and not falling for someone's mouth without seeing it first. I also suggest you to meet the dog and see how they do their job. There are bunch of people who sell trained dogs sell crap dogs.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks for replies.

Noel, I consider all these but I have been told from trainers with no relation at all with the breeder that this female is the best character I can get for doberman here, I fail to mention in my previous post, actually this was my first concern for its parents. Anyway like your last sentence.

cshellenberger I remember in previous week than you told that your female doberman is from here and is the sweetest dog for your family what a favorable coincidence 

wyx as a said I missed to mention about character and you are right I moved to a house from apartment last September I cant wait to get our first family dog (I had around 10 in the past) and I did some research like speak with local trainers for GSD and DOBE and browsed from some hours reading articles, now I registered in this forum, and I accidentally crosschecked the lines with cshellenberger.

What else can stop me, its one of the best to trust with the cat also, but what about the 2 thousand eur? Is this on the very high side or it can be justified?


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

mikee said:


> What else can stop me, its one of the best to trust with the cat also, but what about the 2 thousand eur? Is this on the very high side or it can be justified?


 Two thousand euro for a doberman puppy? If I were you, I wouldn't buy that puppy. I think its too silly. You can find a trained dog for 2,000 buck somewhere.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yes, that IS high for a pup, I paid 1200.00 American ( on Spay Nueter Contract) for my girl who is from some of the same lines. However, there are alot more breeders here, therefore more competition. IF I had gotten her on a show contract she would have been considerably more. SHe is a pet and a family member, not my primary means of protecting my family and is not trained to do so. 

I do see there is some health testing that has been done, I'd inquire about vonWillibrands testing and Cardiac testing and what the scores are (it may be on the site, but I don't read Greek) for BOTH sides of the family.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Ring 
you must not have read many of my posts, as I am a Neanderthal male, Chauvinist pig, Negative arrogant type dog trainer when I was younger but after 44 years of being married I am now just a battered, abused ego less man whose wife constantly nags and beats him up vigorously with a big stick.

That being said, I do not sell any dogs. Many years ago I sold a well bred GSD to a couple who when dog was 6 mths old sent him back for training. He was a very nice dog. 1 year after training the dog the gentleman called me up and wanted me to buy the dog back because they were moving and new place was too fancy for the dog(whatever that meant) He then informed me that then when they visited our area where they had relatives they could come to kennel and visit with their past family member(the dog) I then informed the jerk that I would purchase the dog back but at no time would he or his family be allowed near the dog in the future. As I said before I was indeed arrogant and was not very tactful with my choice of words. He decided that maybe our business together was over and I never heard from the jerk again. I decided at that time selling dogs to people was not my cup of tea anymore. This was 20 years ago and I have not sold a dog since. It was not a big loss because in 45 years of dog work we may have had 7 litters of pups(all bred from working stock GSPs and GSDs) and 25 adult dogs. I have always been more dog trainer than dog seller.
mikee
I'm going to repeat you got to dive in and what the dog turns out is up to you. German dogs with proper work can do many things. Weimeraners in Germany were used to bring down deer/boar retrieve ducks, point pheasants etc, GSPs, GWPs all have same backgrounds.
Shepherds used for herding, guard dogs etc. They believed in one dog doing many things. Rotties pulling carts etc etc etc. Dobes same thing.
My preference is GSDs over a Doberman, but that is just my choice. The price you pay for a dog/puppy is entirely your business. The working dog forum sounds Ok, but I have found sometimes the more input you get the more confusing things become. 
Good Luck


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## Guardian (May 17, 2008)

I know this may seem irrelevent to the topic of dogs, however I must say:

As a child I took martial arts. I am a black belt and still study under the same sensei that I did when I was a kid. I started karate at 7 years old and now I am 22. We do a lot of self defense at my dojo and I will always remember my sensei saying this about weapons "Don't carry a weapon. Nine times out of ten it will be used against you"

I think the same applies to this situation where the OP wants to get a dog solely for the purposes of protection.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Guardian said:


> I know this may seem irrelevent to the topic of dogs, however I must say:
> 
> As a child I took martial arts. I am a black belt and still study under the same sensei that I did when I was a kid. I started karate at 7 years old and now I am 22. We do a lot of self defense at my dojo and I will always remember my sensei saying this about weapons "Don't carry a weapon. Nine times out of ten it will be used against you"
> 
> I think the same applies to this situation where the OP wants to get a dog solely for the purposes of protection.


Guardian
No disrespect to your sensei, but whether it's dog or weapon, to me it's like carrying a condom, I would rather have one and not need it, than need one and not have it.
My opinion only.


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## Guardian (May 17, 2008)

I forgot I was talking to Americans (no offense)...

It's a different mentality. Here it is unacceptable (and illegal) to carry certain weapons for the purposes of protection. Carrying a gun here can bring years in prison. Other weapons such as pepper spray, certain types of knives, etc are also illegal to posses. For that reason alone I would never carry a weapon. Coming across the boarder the other week (coming home from a 2 hr trip to the US) I had to have my car searched. I asked the officer why and he told me "oh illegal things that we don't accept here in Canada, like guns". Frankly I would be more afraid of being stopped and having a weapon found on me, then say being attacked by a stranger.

Aside from the simple fact that most dangerous weapons are illegal in Canada, weapons can be easily turned against a person. I teach a self defense class and can tell you there are literally hundreds of ways things like guns can be turned against the bearer. You always have to be one step ahead of the person attacking you especially if you have a weapon that can be turned against you. 

But then again almost anything can be considered a weapon, even your own hands. But frankly I would rather use my natural weapons (hands, legs, fists, BRAIN) then an external weapon like a knife or a gun.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

No Offense taken, we love the fat that our constitution protects our rights and I stand behind you govenemnt not wanting anything smuggled into the country.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Guardian 
You are a 22 year old indestructible rascal and I will fight for your right not to carry any kind of weapon.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Hi, just an update: I am ready to buy a female puppy for 1500 euro, from the same breeder, same father but with different mother. The puppy will be 2.5 months on mid August and I think I will give the breeder an advance payment to book it.

The link is as follows, for the greek parts of the mother's presentation the translation is: 


> ΠΡΩΤΑΘΛΗΤΡΙΑ ΡΩΣΙΑΣ = CHAMPION OF RUSSIA
> ΠΡΩΤΑΘΛΗΤΡΙΑ ΒΟΣΝΙΑΣ = CHAMPION OF BOSNIA
> ΠΡΩΤΑΘΛΗΤΡΙΑ ΟΜΙΛΟΥ DOBERMANN ΒΟΣΝΙΑΣ = CHAMPION BOSNIA DOBERMAN CLUB
> ΜΗΤΕΡΑ ΤΗΣ BELISSIMA DE G. VINKO, ΝΙΚΗΤΡΙΑΣ ΣΤΟ ΠΑΓΚΟΣΜΙΟ ΠΡΩΤΑΘΛΗΜΑ IDC = MOTHER OF BELISSIMA DE G. VINKO, WINNER OF WORLD CHAMPION IDC


ww.doberman.gr/POWERXINDIRA/powerxindira1.html

I would appreciate some comments as I have to give the advance on the weekend. Also when she will be 2.5 months old, is it OK to accept the cat, or she will be too big ?

Thanks


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Mikee
Good luck, since I am not knowledgeable in the breeding lines of your puppy, I am not going to confuse the issue further. As I said earlier dive in and get your feet wet.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

thanks wvasko


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

mikee said:


> I would appreciate some comments as I have to give the advance on the weekend. Also when she will be 2.5 months old, is it OK to accept the cat, or she will be too big ?
> 
> Thanks


She should accept the cat just fine IF the cat is calm enough to sit while she sniffs and gets to know it. I would give her some positive reenforcement for being calm around the cat too. Personally I've had cats that have trained puppies to be nice and have become surrogate pack members and best friends to my dogs, even climbing into the playpen with them when they cried to calm them.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Well altho very late, an update: I followed your advices, bought a female puppy on August, now she is almost 6 months old and here are some pics. We have some of the expected puppy problems i.e.

- digging holes in the yard 
- excessive biting/mouthing 
- unrest when she is out of the crate
- farting (problem when inside, I feed her orijen)

In general she is very good with the kids, very socialized and friendly with visitors.

Do you have any suggestions to above problems, thanks.





PS cats died


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## kellytoonces (Sep 5, 2008)

if a dog is not handler aggressive its easy to assume the role of the handler and the dog will bond quickly ,many people buy trained dogs I sold several this year but Malinios are often too high drive for your average person I personally would prefer a GSD over a Mal they are more of a ''thinking'' dog were malinois are very reactionary


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

mikee said:


> Well altho very late, an update: I followed your advices, bought a female puppy on August, now she is almost 6 months old and here are some pics. We have some of the expected puppy problems i.e.
> 
> - digging holes in the yard
> - excessive biting/mouthing
> ...


Nice pics, Have you started any training at all as you did not mention it. If not it's time. Why don't you dive into the food forum and see if other people have problems with the gas passing and your dog food. Dogs digging holes are usually bored etc and actually should not be left alone outside unsupervised.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

The digging and restlessness sound very symptomatic of boredom and pent-up energy (both physical and mental). How much exercise and training does she get a day?


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

@rosemaryninja: my wife walks in the morning about 30 mins and myself evening time walk for about one hour. 2 times per week I put her on our treadmill every 2-3 days we meet with other dogs and play in our garden or theirs. In general she has a normal puppy life, but since she grow up inside the house she prefers it instead of the big garden. Actually I have come up to a conclusion that she prefers in the crate than free in the garden, although we neighbor with another dog and they play from both sides of the common fence. This for exercise, as for training nothing.
May be she is unrest because of the bread and young age? How old do the dobs mature?

@wvasko, I know this is my main concern now, how to find a proper trainer, who will teach her without break her character, because she is very friendly now especially with visitors and neighbor kids, so I am still researching. We leave her at the yard in the morning unsupervised since 4 months old. It is very difficult to supervise her all the time at the yard and I prefer she stays there than in the crate.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

mikee said:


> @rosemaryninja: my wife walks in the morning about 30 mins and myself evening time walk for about one hour. 2 times per week I put her on our treadmill every 2-3 days we meet with other dogs and play in our garden or theirs. In general she has a normal puppy life, but since she grow up inside the house she prefers it instead of the big garden. Actually I have come up to a conclusion that she prefers in the crate than free in the garden, although we neighbor with another dog and they play from both sides of the common fence. This for exercise, as for training nothing.
> May be she is unrest because of the bread and young age? How old do the dobs mature?
> 
> @wvasko, I know this is my main concern now, how to find a proper trainer, who will teach her without break her character, because she is very friendly now especially with visitors and neighbor kids, so I am still researching. We leave her at the yard in the morning unsupervised since 4 months old. It is very difficult to supervise her all the time at the yard and I prefer she stays there than in the crate.


We have a problem in the states with unsupervised dogs getting stolen.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

She is GORGOUS! For the digging, give her a sand box and hide her toys in it! My Girl loves her sandbox.

Biteing? Use this nad be CONSISTANT. *The Bite Stops Here*

The unrest you're talking about is boredom. The BEST thing for it is excercise and training! Dobes and other working (and herding) breeds NEED a job to do, so get her into training and do training at home. Here are some great training excercises you and the family can do at home (get the kids involved, they need to have control of the dog as well).

Doggy Zen 
Targeting AKA "Touch" 
Greeting Politely at the door 
NILIF (nothing in life is free) 
Loose Leash Walking Using Positive Reinforcers
Training Dog to Greet Politely 

Above all, remember that she is a pup! She's going to be silly and do inappropriate things at times. The biggest test is coming up, her "Teenage" stage when she'll seemingly forget EVERYTHING you've taught her. Just stick to the training and be consistant with it and she'll turn out just fine.

BTW, the gas is normal! Dobergas is NOTORIOUS LOL, yogurt may help.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks a lot cshellenberger, I will print and carefully read all the links.

When do dobermans mature, become adult?


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

She seems a lovely dog. 

Mental stimulation can tire a dog out as much as physical exercise. I have a German shepherd and talk about a dog needing a job and lots of mental stimulation... well that is my dog. 

Here is a link you might find interesting:
www.clickertraining.com

I do 101 things with a box with my dog and the clicker. I do other things too.. and the object is for me to be silent and the dog to offer behavior. It gets her going. If I do a session in the den where I do initial training and mental tiring, and I don't use the box she will go and GET it. She LOVES 101 things to do with a box. 

I would recommend you read "The Other End of the Leash" by Patricia McConnell. This book will give you insight into what motivates dogs to do what dogs do. 

Even if you find a trainer you will end up having to do training yourself as well. A dog will need to learn cues from a trainer but then you need to follow thru so the dog does those cues for you too. Dogs do not generalize behavior between people or locations.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

mikee said:


> Thanks a lot cshellenberger, I will print and carefully read all the links.
> 
> When do dobermans mature, become adult?


Generally Dobes are considered adults at 2 years ( as are most large breeds). You can start FULL agility training at 18 months. In the mean time you can start a few of the less bone jarring obsticles now such as the bridge, pole and tunnels (which are also used in Schulzhund). You need to get basic obedience and Bite Inhibition taught now, Bite inhibition is ESSENTIAL for Bite work and gaurd training because you want the dog to know how much pressure is appropriate to hold but avoid injury. Obedience is essential for calling a dog off and having TOTAL control at all times. You'll especially need to train her recall, a good book/DVD for this is "Really Reliable Recall" by Leslie Nelson REALLY RELIABLE RECALL BOOKLET , REALLY RELIABLE RECALL: TRAIN YOUR DOG TO COME WHEN CALLED... NO MATTER WHAT! DVD

YOU might also try these:
CLICK YOUR WAY TO RALLY OBEDIENCE
by Pamela Dennison 

CLICKER TRAINING FOR OBEDIENCE
by Morgan Spector 

If you're looking for trainers try using this link 
http://www.iaabc.org/suchen/


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## noisebug (Nov 22, 2008)

**Ooops, yeah way too late. Should have read it all the way through.. 

This is a bad idea. For that kind of money, invest in a better alarm system. You CAN have your system on when you are sleeping, out of the house, or in the house. If you can't hear the bell or alarm in the basement, install more sirens. If you are paranoid, install cameras. 

We are talking about $7000 you are willing to dump. If thats the case, you can get great alarm systems. In addition, most newer alarms have a pager, so they can page/call your cellphone when there is an alarm. So even when you are out of the house, you will know.

Depending how paranoid you are, you can install extra locks on all your doors, potentially bar your basement windows. Heck, if you are super paranoid install a card swipe lock or finger print. Sure, these are a lot of money but if you want security, you can get it. 

I'm sorry, at the end of the day, I can shoot/tranq/poison your dog... but unless the power is cut off I would have a harder time bypassing the alarm. Backup generator!

Cheers


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

You're a little late to the thread noisebug. BTW, a protection dog is NOT a first line of defense, it's the last line. Properly trained the dog will be a DETERRANT as well as being there when all other methods have failed. As long as it's made a part of the family from the beginning, things will be fine.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yes but it's hard to shoot dog in the home, That's why we advise people that protection dogs outside are useless. Irregardless nothing in life is 100% but a layered alarm/dog/gun/911 call and common sense defense works. If they make it to the bedroom, while they are shooting dog they can be shot.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Plus an outside gaurd dog has little if any bond with it's humans. The best gaurd dogs are raised with the family they are to protect.


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## Esther (Jul 2, 2008)

Congratulations! She looks great! And good luck with your training. You have a lot of links all ready I see. In addition, read a lot, try out a lot, don't expect to much to soon, and find several experienced trainers, or dog owners that can give you feedback on a regular basis. Training a dog is an interesting and long learning proces for yourself which can be very rewording.
About the digging, I would also go with the sandbox. Digging holes is normal behavior for a lot of dogs. If you dont want it, dont leave the dog outside alone, as said above, or learn her to dig only in her own sandbox.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Plus an outside gaurd dog has little if any bond with it's humans. The best gaurd dogs are raised with the family they are to protect.


I think thats' why we hear these amazing stories about dogs that are not considered guard dog material that jump in and do amazing things to would be bad guys. It's called love/like/bond etc etc etc.


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## mikee (Jul 3, 2008)

Thanks very much for all replies. 

About cshellenberger's link to find a dog trainer, my country is not included but I am in constant contact with other doberman owners who are giving me mixed results about trainers and I definitely agree that the dog has to live inside for bond with the family but mainly if I want it for security reasons. In the yard she is exposed to anyone. I finished yesterday the material from cshellenberger, I have already read the "ABC guide to dog training" and I will go through the clicker training as well.

I will revert tomorrow, thanks


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Short training sessions every day, or a couple of times a day, will help immensely with her boredom. She's worked out her muscles but she also needs to work her mind. This dog was bred to work and while you don't need to have her out there doing professional police work or anything, you should still be helping her release some of that pent-up mental energy in a healthy way. Dobermans are very sharp dogs and I think you will find her catching on very fast. 

Glad to hear your pup is doing well. Update us when you can.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Another good thing to check into is a Schulzhund club. They have them worldwide and you can get some valuable feedback as well as finding a trainer.


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