# Aggression towards strangers and other dogs - what to do?



## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

The problem:
We recently adopted a Shih Tzu mix about 10 days ago, and has accepted us as his "pack." He generally does well on the leash, but when we see/pass strangers or other dogs he goes ballistic (barking/growling/pulling away). He also barks/growls at visitors to our house - which is a major problem.

What we've tried:
I've tried running with him, but it seems to have little effect so far. I also read today that you should bring treats along and offer them well before the "opposing force" is near, and to stop walking until the dog looks back and comes to my side (to stop the pulling). Also read today that I should put him in a room for 30 sec if barking at a visitor. I did try this method last time we had guests over, and he just kept barking.

I'll try anything - I love the little guy, but my wife's patience is waning. The last thing I want is for someone to get bit before he's completely trained. Is there anything else I can do?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Ok you have had this dog for 10 days, with his size and weight he's not too hard to handle. Walk him in areas if possible with less people and tell people that he is under training but can get agressive to warn them off. Let this dog get use to his new owners for at least a couple months and then start him in a training class. After 10 days if wife is losing patience maybe a dog is not the right choice for your family. 

If somebody picked you up and dropped you into a home in Germany to live with a strange family, in 10 days you (since you are smarter than dog) may start to adjust but I think there would be some problems. I know that sounds facetious but just think about it.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

You have to figure out how far away he needs to be from people before he starts barking at them. Have them stand there, then give him treats. A little closer, treats, and so on. This is not a short process. Patience is required. 

I second the idea that a training class will help after he's had more time to settle in. He's a cute dog. Hope you make it work with him.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Ok you have had this dog for 10 days, with his size and weight he's not too hard to handle. Walk him in areas if possible with less people and tell people that he is under training but can get agressive to warn them off. Let this dog get use to his new owners for at least a couple months and then start him in a training class. After 10 days if wife is losing patience maybe a dog is not the right choice for your family.
> 
> If somebody picked you up and dropped you into a home in Germany to live with a strange family, in 10 days you (since you are smarter than dog) may start to adjust but I think there would be some problems. I know that sounds facetious but just think about it.


Thanks for the reply! I just got home from class & walked him, stopping him whenever he started to pull - worked like a charm! Now just to add some people to the mix. A question about that also - let's say I give him a treat as soon as he sees the stranger/dog. But then still is aggressive towards them as we pass each other, do I stop and reprimand, stop & firmly tell him "no" until he calms down, keep walking & ignore his aggression, or what?



Thracian said:


> You have to figure out how far away he needs to be from people before he starts barking at them. Have them stand there, then give him treats. A little closer, treats, and so on. This is not a short process. Patience is required.
> 
> I second the idea that a training class will help after he's had more time to settle in. He's a cute dog. Hope you make it work with him.


Will try the treats tomorrow when there's people out. I just walked him, but it's past 10:00pm here. For the training class, I'd like to get Cesar Millan out here - that guy is awesome!


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

I'd handle the problem with the people as so:

When guests come over, give them a few tasty treats (high value, not just biscuits) to toss at your dog when they enter the house. Tell them not to make eye contact with the dog. They must completely ignore him other than tossing him the treats. No talking to him, gesturing at him, etc.

This helps to establish that guests are a GOOD thing and that he does not need to fear them.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Mandirigma said:


> Will try the treats tomorrow when there's people out. I just walked him, but it's past 10:00pm here. For the training class, I'd like to get Cesar Millan out here - that guy is awesome!


Please don't use Cesar's methods on this dog. Your dog is likely exhibiting aggression because he is anxious and afraid. It is your job to make him feel better, and using punishment based methods will not achieve this.

Do what Entwine said instead. And, if you're having a large crowd or having people over who will not comply with your rules, put your dog in a separate room for his own sake.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

MissMutt said:


> Please don't use Cesar's methods on this dog. Your dog is likely exhibiting aggression because he is anxious and afraid. It is your job to make him feel better, and using punishment based methods will not achieve this.
> 
> Do what Entwine said instead. And, if you're having a large crowd or having people over who will not comply with your rules, put your dog in a separate room for his own sake.


Yeah, I've noticed that Cesar doesn't use treats - I've wondered why, and how just giving the dog a "TSSST" and projecting a dominate personality works. Yesterday I read a case study on a dog that was exactly like ours - barked at strangers/dogs during walks, barked/growled visitors. The owner was using these positive reinforcement methods, and it worked.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

You should do some groundwork with this dog first before you introduce the dog to distractions like strangers and strange dogs. This is a basic outline: http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

The dog needs to learn the meaning of the word, "No." I recommend teaching it as a negative punisher. This is an operant conditioning term that means when the dog hears the word he can expect the witholding of an expected reward because he made a mistake. This is better than a positive punisher because it helps avoid conflict with the dog and the kind of unwanted avoidance and displacement behaviors of dogs that are taught to always expect a physical correction following the word "No."

The dog should be walked on a Herm Sprenger mini prong collar.

Hopefully, after several weeks of groundwork that includes social isolation, and distraction-free walks, as well as training the "no" command, the dog will respond correctly to "no" in these problem situations when they're gradually introduced. If the dog blows you off when you give the no command in a situation where it is showing imprudent aggression, correct the dog with a single pop on the leash sufficient to demotivate the dog (this will vary with the dog's temperament). Don't use nagging corrections.

Inappropriate aggression is annoying from a little Shih Tzu. My own dog is a large (28", 80 lbs) police work type dog. His threats carry deadly force with them. Inappropriate aggression from him is equivalent to me pulling out a gun at a random stranger and waving it around and shouting at them. I would be imprisoned for it. I have a zero tolerance policy for inappropriate aggression from my dog. It doesn't happen. Will you tolerate this from your Shih Tzu just because it's smaller? Like a little punk kid with a pocket knife instead of the man with a gun? Is that acceptable somehow even once?

If you take the time to do the groundwork and walk on a prong collar it will be over before it even starts and there will be no need for any cruelty. If not, you'll be walking a little punk around on a harness.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Using the mini-pinch is like flea hunting with an elephant gun unless you have enrolled in elephant gun school and learn how to use the new tool. Even then you're not gonna have much flea left. It's a rescue dog that nobody has a clue to it's past life. Take your time because guess what if your dog needs a prong collar to straighten it's act up it can be done later. What is the owner gonna do if the 1st correction he gives and the little dog panics and goes ballistic. Some dogs absolutely will/can panic.

I like prong collars and use them on 95% of the dogs I train. Good tool but not for an amateur with a very small dog that can be controlled easily. New dogs need time to do some bonding with their new owners and environment before rough tactics are used. I learned that way back in dog training kindergarten school about a million years and 90 breeds ago.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

I agree with the last reply but keep in mind I didn't say to jerk the heck out of the dog's neck with the prong collar. Walking on a prong collar is not the same as giving a hard correction with a prong. I am not recommending any force be used until three things happen:

The groundwork is done including the use of the dog crate, social isolation and walking exclusively without distractions for a period of time.
The dog learns the meaning of the word no as a negative punisher.
The dog refuses to respond to the learned command and shows inappropriate aggression in defiance of its handler

Only if all three conditions are met would I suggest using any correction and even then the force should be appropriate for the dog's temperament.

People have a mistaken conception about prong collars and remotes. Just because they are capable of delivering higher levels of correction force than any other legitimate type of collar, doesn't mean you have to use it that way! I can walk my dog on both a prong and remote without ever giving a correction at all. I can give a correction with either one that is so delicate that a person could never achieve the same thing with a flat collar or harness because the dog would have no way of telling that the slight tug on the flat collar is actually a positive punishment. A prong or a low level nick communicates something where the flat collar always requires a pop hard enough the dog can tell you didn't just stumble.

I know some people will not give the dog positive punishment at all. I can accept that some people will train their dogs this way, but I already pointed out how inappropriate the stranger aggression is and I don't think that distracting the dog with a cookie is the answer. This dog needs to be set up for success (without the distractions for a while) and when it's time to face the music, the dog's handler needs to show decisive leadership -- not excess violence. The groundwork period teaches the dog to expect this leadership from the handler. The right equipment allows the handler to provide the leadership in any situation with minimal violence.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> I don't think that distracting the dog with a cookie is the answer.


This is a VERY ignorant statement and VERY rude IMO. YOU have a misconception of what it means to be a non-aversive trainer. You obviously know don't know very much about conditioning if you believe that it is as simple as distracting the dog in the presence of its triggers. What you ARE doing is working to change negative associations and rewarding the dog for calm behavior. Tell me, how will a dog feel better about the presence of strangers if you are issuing corrections every time he gets upset when he sees one? You might stop the barking and growling, but you will NOT change the association and you very well may wind up with a dog who gives no vocal warning ad instead goes straight to bite.

"Minimal violence" is not acceptable. You CANNOT fight aggression using more aggression.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well believe it or not there are some dogs that aggression/aversives may have to be used and will cure the problem. I just like starting with easy stuff 1st. *Especially with a new dog in new place.* Notice I keep coming back to new dog in a brand new place with brand new owners that may be rank amateurs in dog handling. Careful just makes more sense to me in this particular case..


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Chances are this dog is using the barking/growling as distancing behaviour based in FEAR> he has not had the time to develop enough of a relationship with his new owners to trust they will protect him or remove him from frightening people/events. Fear does NOT respond well to punishment. This is not simply an OB issue, it is a behavioural issue and sending someone with a brand new rescue dog to the Leerburg site is, well, premature and not well thought out.

I have had many clients who had fearful/fear aggressive dogs who had gone the balanced training/punishment based training route in the beginning. What they most often ended up with was a dog that USED to growl, stiffen or tongue lick before lunging and after having their signals extinguished through punishment got a dog that went from 0-60 full on lunge. Working on the FEAR itself through classical conditioning and then working on obedience (OC) works much better and does not have the same repercussions/fallout that is possible with punishment. 

OP, regarding your question about the cookie and the continuing to bark etc. CC is often called open bar/closed bar. You make sure the food reward is TINY and very high value and you have LOTS of it. Person appears in sight, bar opens..continuous repeated feeding, person passes, bar closes. The idea is to have the dog learns that the person/scary thing PREDICTS good stuff, literally changing the emotional response to the scary thing. So technically, in the beginning you are not rewarding a sit or calm or anything else, you are simply stuffing his face. Eventually when he starts to look at YOU when he sees scary thing, THEN you ask for a sit and calm and reward. 

The best site for information on working with a fearful dog is www.fearfuldogs.com , lots of info on the hows,whys, wheres etc. 

In the meantime, keep him on a leash, do as much avoidance of his triggers as you can while you do your research. Is he crate trained? If so, use your crate as his safe place when people come over, or use a baby gate and do not force him to interact. Ask all visitors to ignore him. This will keep everyone safe while you come up with a plan.

Be aware too that often fear based behaviours can be linked to underlying physical issues (hypothyroidism, tick borne diseases, pain, etc) so if you make no progress you should think about discussing these things with a good veterinarian.


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## no.guru (Apr 9, 2010)

Patricia McConnell has excellent advice on how to deal with this issue in For The Love Of A Dog. Chaper 5, Pavlov In Your Pocket, speaks directly to how to address this. Basically, it's classical conditioning and it takes patience.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Chances are this dog is using the barking/growling as distancing behaviour based in FEAR> *he has not had the time to develop enough of a relationship with his new owners to trust they will protect him or remove him from frightening people/events.* Fear does NOT respond well to punishment. This is not simply an OB issue, it is a behavioural issue and sending someone with a brand new rescue dog to the Leerburg site is, well, premature and not well thought out.


Yes indeed, that's why I mention the dog read progam that amateurs have a hard time with, I don't have all the proper words but slow and easy is proper. I could never understand rush on something that will be in home for 10 to 15 yrs if lucky. As a professional trainer there is always a time problem but not for amateurs.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

*Using the mini-pinch is like flea hunting with an elephant gun unless you have enrolled in elephant gun school and learn how to use the new tool. *Even then you're not gonna have much flea left. It's a rescue dog that nobody has a clue to it's past life. Take your time because guess what if your dog needs a prong collar to straighten it's act up it can be done later. What is the owner gonna do if the 1st correction he gives and the little dog panics and goes ballistic. Some dogs absolutely will/can panic.
*LOL, I love that!!*
I like prong collars and use them on 95% of the dogs I train. Good tool but not for an amateur with a very small dog that can be controlled easily. New dogs need time to do some bonding with their new owners and environment before rough tactics are used. I learned that way bacin dog training kindergarten school about a million years and 90 breeds ago.
*I like prong collars, too. I've used them with great success, but I'll agree--sticking a prong on a small dog that's brand new and hasn't learned "why NOT" (bark at that dog, bark at that person, etc) isn't the greatest idea. I've seen in some instances where a prong can make aggression worse (dog sees trigger, pulls and gets pinched). Everytime they see the trigger, they get pinched, because anti-pull training wasn't done, the owners skipped right to management. Great way to associate the trigger with more reasons to go ballistic.*



MissMutt said:


> This is a VERY ignorant statement and VERY rude IMO. YOU have a misconception of what it means to be a non-aversive trainer. You obviously know don't know very much about conditioning if you believe that it is as simple as distracting the dog in the presence of its triggers. What you ARE doing is working to change negative associations and rewarding the dog for calm behavior. Tell me, how will a dog feel better about the presence of strangers if you are issuing corrections every time he gets upset when he sees one? You might stop the barking and growling, but you will NOT change the association and you very well may wind up with a dog who gives no vocal warning ad instead goes straight to bite.
> 
> "Minimal violence" is not acceptable. You CANNOT fight aggression using more aggression.


Yep, yep, and yep. Haven't we all seen the dogs who (according to owners) bite without any warning? I wonder what their past management/training was like? Growling was punished, freezing up was punished, etc. 
And to whoever made the ignorant statement, the point isn't to "bribe" or "distract" a dog who is lunging and acting ballistic with a cookie. Puh-lease.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

My advice was to start on the prong collar where there are NO TRIGGERS. My advice required the use of groundwork including social isolation, distraction or trigger free walks, and learning the meaning of the no command as a negative punisher (punishment by withholding a reward the dog is conditioned to expect) -- in other words, learning the "why not." Specifically the "why not" that the dog needs to reason is, "because my leader told me to knock it off in a way that I understand (the "no" command)."

"...if your dog is absolutely committed to what she's doing -- say, barking out the window at the neighbor's mutt who loves to taunt her -- then there's probably no [startling] sound you can make that's going to get her attention. In cases like that, give up trying to get louder and louder from across the room and go over closer to her. I like to lure dogs away from context like that with a treat held right up close to their nose, like luring a donkey with a carrot, and then ask them to do something else when they're away from all the excitement." - Patricia B. McConnell, Ph.D

If McConnell is VERY ignorant and VERY rude, you need to discuss it with her. I don't advocate this.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> My advice was to start on the prong collar where there are NO TRIGGERS. My advice required the use of groundwork including social isolation, distraction or trigger free walks, and learning the meaning of the no command as a negative punisher (punishment by withholding a reward the dog is conditioned to expect) -- in other words, learning the "why not." Specifically the "why not" that the dog needs to reason is, "because my leader told me to knock it off in a way that I understand (the "no" command)."


And again, I can't see how you're going to change the association doing only this. By teaching the dog no, you're teaching him that the behavior is unacceptable. But what about the underlying reason WHY he is reacting? Suppressing the behavior does not change the association. That's where counterconditioning comes in.

And that Patricia McConnell quote is not what he should be doing with this dog. You need to prevent the reaction in the first place and feed treats at a distance where he is not reacting. The "luring" she's talking about has nothing to do with the scenario that the OP posted, because 1) the dog will be leashed and he can simply move away if the dog reaches its threshold and 2) the idea in the first place is to keep the dog under threshold by finding safe distances to work at.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

First off - Thanks everyone for the wealth of advice! In this post, I have some good news and bad news.

Someone had asked if he's trained yet. He is crate trained (from all outward appearances), he immediately goes to his crate if I open it - without being told. He's also housebroken, although there have been a few accidents (very minimal considering he's still new to the house, and 1 yr old). I also have a fabric/nylon webbing choke collar that he wears as his normal collar since when not being pulled hangs loose like a normal one would.

I did try walking him last night for one last time before bed, around 10pm or so, using the treats before approaching the stimulus - in this case, someone's house where there were people or before walkers approached. He didn't do very bad with the mobile stimulus - the couple that walked by (he did bark at them a little and pull). However with the stationary stimulus - a person outside of their house, it was bad (he barked the entire time, tried to run after her, pulled, etc). 

In both instances, I gave him the treat prior to the stimulus getting even remotely close. I also gave him a few more treats as the stimulus got closer, or we got closer to it. I've also stopped walking whenever he starts to pull - this has been pretty successful, and I generally haven't been giving treats for this but a "good boy" praise.

So now the bad news. He bit my wife last night and jumped up at our daughter. My wife and I were arguing, which escalated to yelling, and that's when he went after her face and got her on the cheek/mouth. He didn't go after me though - not sure why. Our daughter started crying, and he went after her too. He jumped up towards her face, but I really don't think he was going after a bite.

He usually is a sweet, good-natured dog around us. Last night however, I think the yelling was too much for him and he went off. I realize it only takes one bite to my daughter's face and she's scarred for life, but at what cost do we keep him - hoping that it never happens?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

My advice was to start on the prong collar where there are NO TRIGGERS. My advice required the use of groundwork including social isolation, distraction or trigger free walks, and learning the meaning of the no command as a negative punisher (punishment by withholding a reward the dog is conditioned to expect) -- in other words, learning the "why not." Specifically the "why not" that the dog needs to reason is, "because my leader told me to knock it off in a way that I understand (the "no" command)."

*so in this context No just means "knock it off?" There's really no other information as to what the owner would like the dog to do?*

"...if your dog is absolutely committed to what she's doing -- say, barking out the window at the neighbor's mutt who loves to taunt her -- then there's probably no [startling] sound you can make that's going to get her attention. In cases like that, give up trying to get louder and louder from across the room and go over closer to her. I like to lure dogs away from context like that with a treat held right up close to their nose, like luring a donkey with a carrot, and then ask them to do something else when they're away from all the excitement." - Patricia B. McConnell, Ph.D

If McConnell is VERY ignorant and VERY rude, you need to discuss it with her. I don't advocate this.
*How is that ignorant, and how is it rude? And how is telling a dog to knock it off and leaving it at that any better than luring them away from the problem, getting them to perform something easy they know and treating that? *



MissMutt said:


> And again, I can't see how you're going to change the association doing only this. By teaching the dog no, you're teaching him that the behavior is unacceptable. But what about the underlying reason WHY he is reacting? Suppressing the behavior does not change the association. That's where counterconditioning comes in.
> 
> And that Patricia McConnell quote is not what he should be doing with this dog. You need to prevent the reaction in the first place and feed treats at a distance where he is not reacting. The "luring" she's talking about has nothing to do with the scenario that the OP posted, because 1) the dog will be leashed and he can simply move away if the dog reaches its threshold and 2) the idea in the first place is to keep the dog under threshold by finding safe distances to work at.


*My take so far on this dog training thing is that any one can stick a management tool (choke collar, prong, halti, all things that I've used) on a dog and make it do whatever the owner says. BTDT. Also pretty easy to pop a dog and tell them to quit and call the dog trained. (BTDT too). But as of late it's been pretty cool to me to actually be able to learn how to counter condition and watch a dogs' association with an object previously feared turn into something good. As Donaldson said, why settle for a dog who's tolerant of X stimulus when you can train a dog to actually LIKE it?  *


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Amen to your entire post, LazyGRanch.

Mandirigma, I definitely think there are some underlying anxiety issues going on here. Though it's still VERY early, I would definitely suggest getting a behaviorist involved based on your last post. You cannot take chances here, especially with a child. Bloodwork including a full thyroid panel would be an excellent idea as well - sometimes these things are triggered by chemical imbalances in the dog.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

Again, my advice was to teach No as a negative punisher. This requires an understanding of the operant conditioning term. I won't provide a lesson on operant conditioning in my post. It needs to be learned. When a negative punisher is learned, then the dog knows the meaning of it. I didn't detail how to teach it. Study of operant conditioning will provide the details.

I never said McConnell was ignorant and rude. I said that luring the dog with a cookie isn't appropriate response for this situation. Someone said that my simplification of non-aversive training was ignorant and rude. I provided the McConnell quote to show that luring with a cookie is exactly what some popular non-aversive trainers/advisers teach.

Anyone can take a portion of my advice out of context and critcise it but the bottom line is the dog is biting the owners face now and the time for conjecture is past. My advice is sound when it's taken in its completeness. If the owners were following step one about groundwork they would have had the dog on a leash whenever it's out of the crate and could have prevented the bite. It seems ridiculous that others would dispute sound advice like the groundwork I advocated and teaching negative punishers simply because my third step was to use positive punishment. I hope the child doesn't get injured next.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I know plenty about operant conditioning, thanks. It is you who seems to be forgetting that although OC is extremely useful, it is Pavlov who's always sitting on your shoulder. If you want a dog who will tolerate the presence of strangers by making him perform behaviors that you like (ie not barking/growling), great. But, as was already said in that thread, why not take it a step further and make the dog LIKE strangers? Gives you a whole lot less to worry about, especially since this is a pet dog in a pet home, not a dog who will necessarily kept under strict lock and key the way, say, a police dog would. This dog pretty much NEEDS to like strangers to some degree or else he will need to be isolated any time someone new comes in to his life. This is why we use treats. It's not bribing, it's not luring. This is classical conditioning, and you and I seem to very greatly differ in how important we each think it is.

And for the record, I never disputed your groundwork suggestions. I disputed the idea that you can somehow make a dog feel better about his triggers, which are making him anxious (which is making him aggressive), by teaching him "no" and using corrections. You want to train the behavior, I want to train the brain of the dog. Your choice, I guess.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

OK, I'll chime in ... reluctantly. 



Bart said:


> People have a mistaken conception about prong collars and remotes. Just because they are capable of delivering higher levels of correction force than any other *legitimate* "interesting" choice of words type of collar, doesn't mean you have to use it that way! I can walk my dog on both a prong and remote without ever giving a correction at all. So, the end justifies the means ? I can give a correction with either one that is so delicate that a person could never achieve the same thing with a flat collar or harness because the dog would have no way of telling that the slight tug on the flat collar is actually a positive punishment. A prong or a low level nick communicates something where the flat collar always requires a pop hard enough the dog can tell you didn't just stumble. Kind of reminds me of a colleague of mine, who was once asked by her student exactly "why" she never corrected her dogs. Her response ? ... "Because I don't HAVE to".
> 
> I know some people will not give the dog positive punishment at all. I can *accept* Don't you mean "envy" ? LOL that some people will train their dogs this way, but I already pointed out how inappropriate the stranger aggression is and I don't think that distracting the dog with a cookie is the answer. This dog needs to be set up for success (without the distractions for a while) and when it's time to face the music, the dog's handler needs to show decisive leadership -- not excess violence. The groundwork period teaches the dog to expect this leadership from the handler. The right equipment allows the handler to provide the leadership in any situation with minimal violence. The right KNOWLEDGE allows the handler to provide the leadership in any situation, .. with a complete ABSENSE of violence.


So, ... I suppose that training, devoid of ANY corrections, ... is elitist, far-fetched, and fraught with problems ??? 

 The titles proudly displayed on my walls suggest otherwise.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

That's not even what this is about though. I have no problems with people using corrections to train their dogs. As long as a person understands the science behind the methods that they're using, then there is nothing that I can say. 

I do, however, have problems when people stick to the principles of operant conditioning (that means ANY quadrant of operant conditioning) when classical conditioning (using counterconditioning, not simply using exposure) should be used first. This isn't a training issue, it's a behavior problem. Teaching a dog to "work through" their behavior issues, especially when they involve fear or aggression, is not appropriate IMO. It is even more inappropriate, bearing the ideas of classical conditioning in mind, to correct a dog for reacting to a stimulus.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

Hello everyone - there's some great advice in this thread on both ends of the training spectrum, hope they turn it into a sticky.

Thought I'd give a quick update from this weekend. Atticus is doing much better now. My uncle and cousin from out of town stopped by on Friday, and he was a little apprehensive at first. I had them give him some small pieces of ham and "beggin strips". After that he warmed up to them. The only time that he showed any bit of excitement was when my cousin was playing around tickling our daughter - understandable, he was "protecting" her, which I did give a stern correction, and the behavior stopped. When they left the next day to continue their trip, he growled a little bit when they were putting things in their car and leaving - again, understandable, he probably wanted to go with them.

Walkings have been going better. I've gotten him to a point where he doesn't pull very much if at all, will walk next to my side instead of in front of me (most of the time). Hasn't really went after any strangers because we've been avoiding the situation. However, the one time when he did see a stranger and started to pull towards them I corrected the behavior and it stopped when we got a few feet away. Saw some kids the other night about 100 ft away (at 10:30pm?!?!), he tried to pull to go towards them, but I walked the opposite direction. Again, after a few feet the behavior stopped.

Thanks everyone for the advice, and I'll keep this post going as long as needed.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> Atticus is doing much better now. My uncle and cousin from out of town stopped by on Friday, and he was a little apprehensive at first. I had them give him some small pieces of ham and "beggin strips". After that he warmed up to them.


Great! This is the power of conditioning. Eventually, the goal will be to reduce the amount of treats but still see that same relaxation. (Months down the line, not now!)



> The only time that he showed any bit of excitement was when my cousin was playing around tickling our daughter - understandable, he was "protecting" her, which I did give a stern correction, and the behavior stopped.


Be careful about correcting this - as with growling at strangers, correcting will stop the behavior, but not change the dog's (bad) ideas about what tickling is. Next time, remove him from the situation without a word. Or, if you can, stage a little tickling/wrestling match between your daughter and a friend and keep him at a safe distance, while giving treats, so he can see that there is nothing to worry about. 



> Hasn't really went after any strangers because we've been avoiding the situation.


You don't want to avoid it - you want to keep at safer distances (ie distances where he's under threshold and not barking/growling) and actively work on it by conditioning him to accept their presence (and even enjoy their presence because it means something good is going to happen).



> However, the one time when he did see a stranger and started to pull towards them I corrected the behavior and it stopped when we got a few feet away. Saw some kids the other night about 100 ft away (at 10:30pm?!?!), he tried to pull to go towards them, but I walked the opposite direction. Again, after a few feet the behavior stopped.


Keep walking away to stop the behavior, but don't correct him. Again, correcting him may make him associate a correction with the strangers, which will mean he doesn't feel good about them. Moving away, on the other hand, both interrupts the behavior and prevents the dog from going where he wants to go (pulling at strangers).

Hope this helps. It sounds like you've made a lot of progress.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

MM - thanks for the advice. I'm going to have to try hard to not correct, but to reinforce the correct behavior. I'm also a creature of habit.

One question - if I'm carrying ham, turkey, etc., what do I put it in while walking him? I can carry the beggin strips in my pocket, but not necessarily the wet meat. A small piece of tupperware would do, but they're not easy to open one-handed.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

If you're man enough, get a treat bag 

http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=0&pf_id=0030668

Or, if your clothes have pockets, put them in a little sandwich bag.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

MissMutt said:


> If you're man enough, get a treat bag
> 
> http://www.jefferspet.com/ssc/product.asp?CID=0&pf_id=0030668
> 
> Or, if your clothes have pockets, put them in a little sandwich bag.


What a decision... I think I'll use a sandwich bag. That's right up there with carrying a "man bag." Didn't cross my mind to use sandwich bags though, thanks!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Mandirigma said:


> Hello everyone - there's some great advice in this thread on both ends of the training spectrum, hope they turn it into a sticky.
> 
> Thought I'd give a quick update from this weekend. Atticus is doing much better now. My uncle and cousin from out of town stopped by on Friday, and he was a little apprehensive at first. I had them give him some small pieces of ham and "beggin strips". After that he warmed up to them. The only time that he showed any bit of excitement was when my cousin was playing around tickling our daughter - understandable, he was "protecting" her, which I did give a stern correction, and the behavior stopped. *When they left the next day to continue their trip, he growled a little bit when they were putting things in their car and leaving - again, understandable, he probably wanted to go with them.
> *
> ...


Was this aggressive growling? IME shih-tzu's are notoriously "chatty" (like rotts and malamutes). A lot of 'tzu's in my grooming shop will do what sounds like a growl when they're anticipating their owners arrival or are done being groomed. It's an excitement thing, not an aggressive thing, kwim?


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Was this aggressive growling? IME shih-tzu's are notoriously "chatty" (like rotts and malamutes). A lot of 'tzu's in my grooming shop will do what sounds like a growl when they're anticipating their owners arrival or are done being groomed. It's an excitement thing, not an aggressive thing, kwim?


I'm pretty sure this is aggressive growling; only because it leads to barking at the "stimulus" and him trying to pull towards it.

Quick update - took some treats with me last night in my pocket (beggin strips) but didn't need to use them. Not much "stimulus" out and about past 10pm.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

Well, it's been a few months, so I thought I'd best come back and give this thread a bump.
We haven't made too much progress with our dog. Just to re-cap, he's a rescue dog, a little over a year old, and we think he's part Pappillion / Shih Tzu.
Problems: barking aggressively at children, strangers, other dogs (and going after them if not leashed). He never bit anyone until this weekend, when my two-year old daughter pulled his tail (didn't puncture, but scratched her - with teeth/nails, I don't know).
What I've tried: giving him treats whenever a stranger approaches or when we're walking and I see someone at their house or approaching. This tactic hasn't worked at all. He takes the treat but keeps right on growling/whimpering, looking pissed off. I've also tried removing him from the situation; a "time-out". Also hasn't worked - he incessantly barks. I've also tried verbal reprimands; these have worked the best, but I think he's more scared of me getting all "drill-instructor" on him.
My wife tutors from home, and sometimes she's kept him on leash with her in the room with the child she's tutoring. This has worked out for the most part, and he just sits next to her. So what gives? Why is he docile one minute, then gets all freak show the next?


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

Mandirigma said:


> Well, it's been a few months, so I thought I'd best come back and give this thread a bump.
> We haven't made too much progress with our dog. Just to re-cap, he's a rescue dog, a little over a year old, and we think he's part Pappillion / Shih Tzu.
> Problems: barking aggressively at children, strangers, other dogs (and going after them if not leashed). He never bit anyone until this weekend, when my two-year old daughter pulled his tail (didn't puncture, but scratched her - with teeth/nails, I don't know).
> What I've tried: giving him treats whenever a stranger approaches or when we're walking and I see someone at their house or approaching. This tactic hasn't worked at all. He takes the treat but keeps right on growling/whimpering, looking pissed off. I've also tried removing him from the situation; a "time-out". Also hasn't worked - he incessantly barks. I've also tried verbal reprimands; these have worked the best, but I think he's more scared of me getting all "drill-instructor" on him.
> My wife tutors from home, and sometimes she's kept him on leash with her in the room with the child she's tutoring. This has worked out for the most part, and he just sits next to her. So what gives? Why is he docile one minute, then gets all freak show the next?


He gets over his threshold. Once they're over that line between calm and acting out it's too late to do any training. If he's growling/whining when you're giving him the treats, he's already close to over threshold and that would be why the training is not working. You have to start the training so far from the other stimulus that the dog does NOT react. 

Have you tried counter-conditioning training? Where the people approaching toss treats to your dog?


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

Cesar Millan does NOT use "alpha" methods with shy/frightened dogs and he does not punish them. His methods with shy/frightened dogs are gentle and patient. He finds out why they react and he works on the triggers. He NEVER projects dominance toward that kind of dog. I watch Victoria Stilwell AND Cesar Millan regularly. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that he alpha rolls or punishes frightened dogs. It just isn't so. You might not agree with his methods on brats and aggressive dogs, but he certainly does not punish a frightened dog. You don't have to agree with the way he does things, but I would never say he punishes dogs. Hanging a dog or beating a dog - that's what I call punishment. If you raise a puppy the way he advises (nearly identical to Victorial Stilwell's advice) there would never be a reason to use any method other than gentle positive reinforcement.

P.S. On occasion, with a really tough dog, I've seen Victoria use some of Cesar's methods, after telling the audience she doesn't normally like the method but it's necessary for this dog.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

Entwine said:


> He gets over his threshold. Once they're over that line between calm and acting out it's too late to do any training. If he's growling/whining when you're giving him the treats, he's already close to over threshold and that would be why the training is not working. You have to start the training so far from the other stimulus that the dog does NOT react.
> 
> Have you tried counter-conditioning training? Where the people approaching toss treats to your dog?


No, we haven't. I've suggested we do that, but my wife doesn't want her kids or our guests doing that. To her, getting them to help us train our dog is inappropriate.



JuneBud said:


> Cesar Millan does NOT use "alpha" methods with shy/frightened dogs and he does not punish them. His methods with shy/frightened dogs are gentle and patient. He finds out why they react and he works on the triggers. He NEVER projects dominance toward that kind of dog. I watch Victoria Stilwell AND Cesar Millan regularly. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that he alpha rolls or punishes frightened dogs. It just isn't so. You might not agree with his methods on brats and aggressive dogs, but he certainly does not punish a frightened dog. You don't have to agree with the way he does things, but I would never say he punishes dogs. Hanging a dog or beating a dog - that's what I call punishment. If you raise a puppy the way he advises (nearly identical to Victorial Stilwell's advice) there would never be a reason to use any method other than gentle positive reinforcement.
> 
> P.S. On occasion, with a really tough dog, I've seen Victoria use some of Cesar's methods, after telling the audience she doesn't normally like the method but it's necessary for this dog.


I've never alpha rolled him. When I say "going drill instructor on him", I mean getting in his face, pointing my finger at him and giving him a firm "no" (not yelling).

I actually agree with both Cesar & Victoria - and I've tried using their methods on him. It just isn't working - and not for a lack of "stick-with-it" either. We've been going through this since July 14 (my first post). I believe the reason it's been so hard to train him is that he was never properly socialized. Not that I'm making excuses for my failure, but I'm really at my wit's end now. I've had other dogs, and this has never before been an issue.

He DEFINITELY isn't shy. Frightened by new people, maybe - but definitely not shy about getting himself out there. I think if I were to actually let him off the leash he'd go after them, and the outcome would be scary for them - as well as for myself.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

JuneBud said:


> Cesar Millan does NOT use "alpha" methods with shy/frightened dogs and he does not punish them. His methods with shy/frightened dogs are gentle and patient. He finds out why they react and he works on the triggers. He NEVER projects dominance toward that kind of dog. I watch Victoria Stilwell AND Cesar Millan regularly. I don't know where anyone would get the idea that he alpha rolls or punishes frightened dogs. It just isn't so. You might not agree with his methods on brats and aggressive dogs, but he certainly does not punish a frightened dog. In fact, I've never seen him punish any dog. Giving a dog a little tap on the side or neck is all he ever does to a brat. The alpha roll is only done with a very dominant aggressive dog. Most owners of brats are at fault for not showing leadership and he shows owners how to be their dog's leader. You don't have to agree with the way he does things, but I would never say he punishes dogs. Hanging a dog or beating a dog - that's what I call punishment. If you raise a puppy the way he advises (nearly identical to Victorial Stilwell's advice) there would never be a reason to use any method other than gentle positive reinforcement.


Granted, I'm not Cesar Milans biggest fan. I also don't despise him. I think his use of energy work rocks, and his no touch, no talk, no eye-contact rule is something ANYONE who is going to be around dogs should memorize. In his newer seasons I've been extremely pleased to see him thinking outside the box and using different ideas to help dogs and their people out. But his older episodes BY FAR were nothing but dominance theory, alpha crap, and punishment, and I saw plenty of hanging, popping, choking, etc in those older seasons.


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

True about older shows, but I think 99% of those dogs in the older shows were dominant aggressive types. The shows now have a more varied group of dogs. I am totally impressed by his handling of fearful dogs.

P.S. I do remember a couple of "hanging" episodes, but those were with dogs who were trying to attack. I didn't remember them as hanging because he was trying to avoid getting bitten I believe, but the outcome was what you could call hanging.

Victoria Stilwell is great with what she does, but 90% or more of the dogs she deals with are just brats with a lack of training. She rarely does a truly aggressive dog or an extremely fearful one on her show, but I have seen a handful, and she does not go near the aggressive ones herself.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

A couple of questions.

Have you taken him to a vet to rule out any medical reason for the aggression? I'm talking a thorough exam and bloodwork.

Also, what (if anything) do you know about his history?


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

JuneBud said:


> True about older shows, but I think 99% of those dogs in the older shows were dominant aggressive types. The shows now have a more varied group of dogs. I am totally impressed by his handling of fearful dogs.
> 
> P.S. I do remember a couple of "hanging" episodes, but those were with dogs who were trying to attack. I didn't remember them as hanging because he was trying to avoid getting bitten I believe, but the outcome was what you could call hanging.
> 
> Victoria Stilwell is great with what she does, but 90% or more of the dogs she deals with are just brats with a lack of training. She rarely does a truly aggressive dog or an extremely fearful one on her show, but I have seen a handful, and she does not go near the aggressive ones herself.


I'll agree CM deals with dogs that VS hasn't (at least, that I've seen). I don't follow either program religiously, just going by what I've seen. She did work with an aggressive dog (I can't remember the breed...an american bulldog, or a dogo...looked like a massive white boxer type, but wasn't a boxer). 
The dog that he hung that I thought (personally) looked like he was trying to keep the dog away was the "malamute" (looked like a wolf, IMO). His "tsst" thing didn't work and the dog redirected, and yeah, he WAS hanging the dog to keep himself away. But in a lot of those instances I don't think he would have had to hang them to get away if he would have gone a little slower and done more assessment before popping a 4 foot slip leash on, taking them for a walk, and declaring the dog "fixed". JonBee the Jindo was a bit over the top on CM's part IMO. I watched that episode and was VERY uncomfortable with what I saw, and I don't normally get so upset. I am impressed by his dedication and "never give up" attitude, and am happy to see he's no longer looking at dog training with blinders on.
(FTR, I really am not so into VS as I used to be since I watched Greatest American Dog. When she flipped out on people because their dogs were "stressed" I found myself rolling my eyes and changing the channel.)



Mandirigma said:


> No, we haven't. I've suggested we do that, but my wife doesn't want her kids or our guests doing that. To her, getting them to help us train our dog is inappropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


CM and VS have a lot of different ways of handling, training, managing, and assessing what's going on. You've had him for about 2 1/2 months, correct? That's not much time to follow one trainer, be consistent, and follow another trainer and be consistent with them as well. When you say "stick with it", for about how long? VS tends to use OC and CC, where CM tends to have a "face your fear and it will disappear" attitude. VS changes the dogs' attitude towards the scary thing, and CM basically floods. Both work--it just depends on the dog WHICH ONE will work in the long run. Think of horse trainers. For years the only accepted method to make a horse "safe" and ridable was to "sack 'em out". Horse is scared of a plastic bag? Put the bag on a stick, tie the horse up, and put the bag all over them and let them freak until they stop. Classic Flooding. Anymore, horse people are using OC and CC (changing the horses point of view from "oh no, a bag!" to "oh good! A bag!! Where's my handful of grain?") 
Both work. 
Which methods have you been using _the most_? Have you talked to any professionals in person about this?



Mandirigma said:


> I'm pretty sure this is aggressive growling; only because it leads to barking at the "stimulus" and him trying to pull towards it.
> 
> Quick update - took some treats with me last night in my pocket (beggin strips) but didn't need to use them. Not much "stimulus" out and about past 10pm.


Why not? I would have treated the heck out of him for being good. Who cares if there was no stimulus to set him off? Situations like that are a great way to get the wheels turning in his little fuzzy head that keeping an eye on you, and voluntarily checking in, is a great way to avoid starting bad stuff (the drill sergent thing), a way to start the good stuff (food). Give it another shot


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

Mandirigma, growling and barking and moving toward an object does not prove aggression. My puppy does that and it is out of fear. When he reaches the object (usually a person) he will back down and try to get away especially if the person looks at him or the object moves. He is trying to keep the scarey thing away. Fear needs to be treated very differently than aggression. If you're not sure, you need to find out for sure before using any methods to correct your dog. Maybe you should have a session or two with a trainer and get their opinion.


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## Mandirigma (Jul 14, 2010)

Definitely some good advice here. It's much appreciated.

To answer some of the questions - No, we haven't done any bloodwork to rule out a medical cause. This will be a last-ditch effort.

From what we know of his past, he was picked up around Arnold, MO as a stray. Someone took the time out to housebreak him though; either that or he's just used to going to the bathroom outside. Not sure how long he was on the streets, but the shelter said they had to pretty much butcher his hair all the way off because it was so matted. His ears were still pretty grungy when we got them, but they're getting better.

I guess I have a hard time accepting the possibility that his temperment around others is because of fear... he really looks like he flips out, goes ape nuts, will take down an elephant, and gut it through it's rear end. I don't know how else to explain it. I'll take a picture / video next time. The shelter put me in contact with a trainer, so I'll be talking to him later today.


True, 2.5 months isn't time enough for anything groundbreaking, but I thought I'd see more of an improvement by now. Really the only change from then to now is that he doesn't try jumping up on my daughter when she's crying, or go ballistic when my wife and I have a heated discussion. I've tried to "stick with it" in regards to giving him treats before, during, and after seeing strangers. Just haven't seen as much change as I'd like to I guess.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Mandirigma said:


> Definitely some good advice here. It's much appreciated.
> 
> To answer some of the questions - No, we haven't done any bloodwork to rule out a medical cause. This will be a last-ditch effort.


By making this a "last ditch effort" you may be tying your hands. IF he does have a physical/chemical issue like hypothyroid (a common contributor to anxious behaviour) trying to mitigate the behaviour without mitigating the physical reason behind it is PREVENTING you from making additional progress. It's like learning how to walk without legs.



> From what we know of his past, he was picked up around Arnold, MO as a stray. Someone took the time out to housebreak him though; either that or he's just used to going to the bathroom outside. Not sure how long he was on the streets, but the shelter said they had to pretty much butcher his hair all the way off because it was so matted. His ears were still pretty grungy when we got them, but they're getting better.


Life as a stray often creates a distrust of the world and going AT something that is fearful in the situations where you cannot retreat (ie on a leash, inside a house, in a fenced in yard) often causes the trigger to go away.



> I guess I have a hard time accepting the possibility that his temperment around others is because of fear... he really looks like he flips out, goes ape nuts, will take down an elephant, and gut it through it's rear end. I don't know how else to explain it. I'll take a picture / video next time. The shelter put me in contact with a trainer, so I'll be talking to him later today.


Fear triggers the FLIGHT OR FIGHT response, first option is usually the flight..but if for some reason the flight option is not available OR the animal has learned that flight doesn't work, then fight is the next option..and if it WORKS it is repeated. 




> True, 2.5 months isn't time enough for anything groundbreaking, but I thought I'd see more of an improvement by now. Really the only change from then to now is that he doesn't try jumping up on my daughter when she's crying, or go ballistic when my wife and I have a heated discussion. I've tried to "stick with it" in regards to giving him treats before, during, and after seeing strangers. Just haven't seen as much change as I'd like to I guess


2.5 months is not a lot of time, but it is important to see that you HAVE made progress. The coloured section is HUGE. Baby steps to the bus my friend. He has learned over the time on the streets to do what was necessary to keep himself safe, old habits die hard and relearning that the world is not as scary as he found in the past will take time. I am still making progress with my dog four years after getting her, not that it took four years to make significant progress, it didn't...but I continue to work on some of her triggers because some of them were more ingrained than others. 

You are doing good work. Be patient with him, he's come a long way but needs to keep going.


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## bodymek (Nov 18, 2011)

So I wanted to bump up this thread as it seems similar to what I've got going on right now. I have a puppy(6 month old BC mix) who's showing aggressive tendencies when we're out walking. Not so bad when it's just me, but when I brought my kids on the walk the other day, he was FREAKING OUT at dogs along the way. They were behind fences, so no direct contact but he was snarling and barking at them. I want to mention I've only had him about a week, but he's super good around the family, loves the kids and the kids adore him, but as I was reading this thread I saw that it was important to learn weather it's agression or fear that's being demonstrated and I am leaning towards fear. That being the case, what would be best? I was reading about giving them awesome reward treats in abundance when there are other people/dogs around. The only other time he's anxious is when a bunch of the kids' cousins came over(all of whom are terrified of dogs) and he was growling and extremely nervous. I retreated to his crate and didn't want anything to do with them. I know it's because he feels safe in there(the crate came with him from his previous owner). But I also think that may have been because we're his 3rd family in just 6 months...so I thought maybe he was freaking out because he thought he was being relocated again...or maybe it was just the uncertainty of what was going on and all these new people were in "his house" with "his people" and he didn't know what was going on. At any rate, I don't want him to be freaking out and going after other dogs/people...can I get some more info on what to do for fear based aggressive behavior? Thanks in advance ya'll! Lots of great info on here!


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

You may get more responses by making your own thread, but since you asked here, I will answer you here.

I, personally, feel that no matter what the cause is of an aggressive response (fear or otherwise), that the behaviors exhibited should be dealt with the same ways (using no aversives/corrections). I find the exact "cause" to be irrelevant.. what I do find relevant is eliminating the cause (not only the behavior), what ever that cause may be. But I'll get to that later. With all that said, Border Collies *are* known for there fear/shyness issues as a breed, so I would be willing to bet that this is a fear aggressive/reactive response that you are seeing in your dog.

When kids are involved, I always suggest that the owner proceed with extreme caution. Because kids are unpredictable and will often not follow directions and instead pet or reach for a dog even when told not to, your dog's interactions with children need to be very closely controlled. He is young, which makes it much more likely that he can grow to be pretty comfortable around kids. But still, I emphasize controlled reactions and, if necessary, crating the dog in another room so that he does not continue to experience negative situations with kids around (and thus heighten his fear). What you CAN be doing is tell the kids to toss him a few cookies and turn around and walk away. The social pressure will be removed by the kids turning away and the dog will be getting lots of yummy treats simultaneously.. hopefully making him feel better about having the kids around. Otherwise, tell the kids not to talk to the dog, touch the dog, make eye contact with the dog, move toward the dog, etc. 

As for the barking/growling at other dogs, find a distance where he does not react (may be a block away or several dozen feet!) and feed, feed, feed him for keeping quiet and not getting himself worked up. Slowly, the associations will change, and he should find himself thinking that barking, crazy dogs are pretty cool, since they always mean cookies!! If you are interested, the book Control Unleashed has a lot of details on how to a specific game with your dog along these lines (it's called the "Look at That!") game.

As I recommended to the original poster in this thread, a full blood panel, including thyroid workup, would be beneficial, to rule out medical causes for his behavior. I'd also be interested to know whether or not a Thundershirt (google it) or similar anxiety wrap would help to take the edge off for him when he encounters stressful situations.

Good luck!

Also, if you try the above and his behaviors do not improve, I would recommend getting involved with a veterinary behaviorist. The reason I say this is because the dog is young... and action NOW to fix these issues will save a lot of headaches and heartaches down the road.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Mandirigma said:


> Thanks for the reply! I just got home from class & walked him, stopping him whenever he started to pull - worked like a charm! Now just to add some people to the mix. A question about that also - let's say I give him a treat as soon as he sees the stranger/dog. But then still is aggressive towards them as we pass each other, do I stop and reprimand, stop & firmly tell him "no" until he calms down, keep walking & ignore his aggression, or what?
> 
> 
> Will try the treats tomorrow when there's people out. I just walked him, but it's past 10:00pm here. For the training class, I'd like to get Cesar Millan out here - that guy is awesome!


If he is still being "aggressive" (reactive) it means you are too close to the scary stuff/trying to move too quickly in the process. That is your mistake, not his. As to Cesar Millan - that isn't what you need. You need someone who is able to look at the dog's threshhold and modify the situation so the dog can be successful with the behavior you want.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Pawz, the original post was over a year ago...there is now a different poster asking questions (two replies ago).....confusing, I know..lol


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Cracker said:


> Pawz, the original post was over a year ago...there is now a different poster asking questions (two replies ago).....confusing, I know..lol


Yeah. I figured that out after I answered it. I think I still have a little "anesthesia brain" going on.


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## bodymek (Nov 18, 2011)

Thank you for your feedback


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

Mandirigma said:


> Yeah, I've noticed that Cesar doesn't use treats - I've wondered why, and how just giving the dog a "TSSST" and projecting a dominate personality works. Yesterday I read a case study on a dog that was exactly like ours - barked at strangers/dogs during walks, barked/growled visitors. The owner was using these positive reinforcement methods, and it worked.


Actually, what should be happening and what I think CM is trying to get across is that you, the owner, must project calmness and confidence. No matter what anyone thinks of his methods, I believe everyone can agree that your dog needs you to be calm and confident. He calls it "dominance." I think he's using the wrong terminology. I think he means leadership. CM actually seems very good with timid dogs. He talks a lot about not putting pressure on them, don't talk, don't look, how to approach them, etc. One TV episode was with a bulldog in a beauty shop. He had every person who walked by the dog give him a treat. His puppy book is very good. If everyone used his methods on their puppies from the beginning, no one would need to use his stronger methods on out of control dogs.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

bodymek said:


> So I wanted to bump up this thread as it seems similar to what I've got going on right now. I have a puppy(6 month old BC mix) who's showing aggressive tendencies when we're out walking. Not so bad when it's just me, but when I brought my kids on the walk the other day, he was FREAKING OUT at dogs along the way. They were behind fences, so no direct contact but he was snarling and barking at them. I want to mention I've only had him about a week, but he's super good around the family, loves the kids and the kids adore him, but as I was reading this thread I saw that it was important to learn weather it's agression or fear that's being demonstrated and I am leaning towards fear. That being the case, what would be best? I was reading about giving them awesome reward treats in abundance when there are other people/dogs around. The only other time he's anxious is when a bunch of the kids' cousins came over(all of whom are terrified of dogs) and he was growling and extremely nervous. I retreated to his crate and didn't want anything to do with them. I know it's because he feels safe in there(the crate came with him from his previous owner). But I also think that may have been because we're his 3rd family in just 6 months...so I thought maybe he was freaking out because he thought he was being relocated again...or maybe it was just the uncertainty of what was going on and all these new people were in "his house" with "his people" and he didn't know what was going on. At any rate, I don't want him to be freaking out and going after other dogs/people...can I get some more info on what to do for fear based aggressive behavior? Thanks in advance ya'll! Lots of great info on here!


When you're giving him a lot of rewards in the presence of other dogs/people, make sure you are only treating when he is calm. You don't want to accidentally encourage the behavior you are trying to extinguish. The goal is to find a distance where he still hears/sees the things that scare him, but they're far away enough to keep him from reacting. The idea is you will be able to gradually get closer and closer to the scary things with him remaining relaxed. 

I would let him stay in his crate when there are children, especially children who are nervous around dogs around. If he growls at the kids and then you put him in his crate, it is actually reinforcing the growling. It's better to keep him in a safe place where he will be calm than to try to get him used to the kids and inadvertently reinforce the growling by letting him "escape" from the kids when he growls. Half of helping a reactive dog is management (preventing the aggression in the first place) the other half is careful and controlled exposure to the things that make him nervous, all the while showing him that good things happen when he's around those scary things. It's awesome to see your dog realize that things that were once very scary can actually be a LOT of fun.


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