# Greyhound Racing Information!



## nadia

This post is to INFORM, as I'm sure none of you would support this terrible business. But if you didn't know, it's important to!

DO NOT support the racing industry.

First of all, thousands of greyhounds are killed every year because they aren't "fit" for racing, were injured during racing, or are "retired" and no longer competitable. Greyhounds that aren't killed are often dropped off in shelters and rescues once they are "retired" to be replaced by competitable greyhounds. They can also be shipped off to breeding facilities to be used to breed more racing Greyhounds. Oh and did I mention greyhounds usually retire after about 2-4 years of age? And as young as 18 months old?

They do not receive normal socialization or interaction with other humans and pets. They are kept in cramped kennels for the majority of their life, and sometimes they don't get to leave the kennels at all in a 20-24 hour period. Greyhounds who are left in rescues and adopted often have issues adapting, and almost always are fearful of walking up and down stairs, walking on linoleum, and often don't know how to play with toys or other dogs because they weren't properly socialized. Just to name a couple issues.

Greyhounds are sprinters, not runners. They have bursts of sprinting and should not be over worked like racers are. A lot of the time, because they're over worked, greyhounds will get injuries while racing ranging from broken or severed toes to broken necks and paralysis due to spinal cord injury. This results in them being put down if they aren't killed from the injury.

If you ever find yourself wanting a greyhound, I say RESCUE ONE! And be sure it's from an agency that does NOT support the business, or if you're getting one from a breeder be sure they do NOT support the racing industry, because it's likely you're giving your money to someone who is also selling the puppies to racers.

Kill the business! Save the dogs!


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## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> This post is to INFORM, as I'm sure none of you would support this terrible business. But if you didn't know, it's important to!
> 
> DO NOT support the racing industry.
> 
> First of all, thousands of greyhounds are killed every year because they aren't "fit" for racing, were injured during racing, or are "retired" and no longer competitable. Greyhounds that aren't killed are often dropped off in shelters and rescues once they are "retired" to be replaced by competitable greyhounds. They can also be shipped off to breeding facilities to be used to breed more racing Greyhounds. Oh and did I mention greyhounds usually retire after about 2-4 years of age? And as young as 18 months old?
> 
> They do not receive normal socialization or interaction with other humans and pets. They are kept in cramped kennels for the majority of their life, and sometimes they don't get to leave the kennels at all in a 20-24 hour period. Greyhounds who are left in rescues and adopted often have issues adapting, and almost always are fearful of walking up and down stairs, walking on linoleum, and often don't know how to play with toys or other dogs because they weren't properly socialized. Just to name a couple issues.
> 
> Greyhounds are sprinters, not runners. They have bursts of sprinting and should not be over worked like racers are. A lot of the time, because they're over worked, greyhounds will get injuries while racing ranging from broken or severed toes to broken necks and paralysis due to spinal cord injury. This results in them being put down if they aren't killed from the injury.
> 
> If you ever find yourself wanting a greyhound, I say RESCUE ONE! And be sure it's from an agency that does NOT support the business, or if you're getting one from a breeder be sure they do NOT support the racing industry, because it's likely you're giving your money to someone who is also selling the puppies to racers.
> 
> Kill the business! Save the dogs!



1) I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say in reference to sprinters versus runners...... Sprinting is running. But no... Greyhounds are not long distance runners.... But that is NOT what track racing is.... Track racing Greyhounds is a sprint..... Either 3/8, 5/16, or 7/16 of a mile..... ALL are sprint tracks..... And all are shorter than a likely real life hunting situation for which the breed was developed...... Greyhounds coursing hares, rabbits, coyotes, small antelopes, etc. Regularly sprint WELL over a mile. 

2) While I do not agree with every practice that may occur within the sport.... I do enjoy watching to puppies run.... I have gone to races for many years.. And will continue to do so.... It is the same with horse racing... I enjoy it....

3) Even if I did not enjoy or like dog racing, I would not not speak out against it.... Because if we end dog racing... What is next? Hunting with dogs, working livestock with dogs, etc? Herding trials, agility, dock diving??? once the door is opened....

4) Your tagline..... "Kill the business! Save the dogs!" Is an oxymoron....... Kill the business, kill the breed..... Without racing, it is doubtful there is enough interest in the breed to keep it going...


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## Kyllobernese

We used to breed Greyhounds, not for racing as there is no racing in Canada but we also got some dogs off the track. They all settled in very fast. They liked nothing better than getting out in a big area and just running for the sheer joy of running. I think dog racing like horse racing is tarred by the same brush. Most Greyhounds are properly fed and conditioned for racing, just like horses. If they are not properly looked after, they do not make it on the track so they would just be throwing money away. I know there are always "bad" trainers but they don't last long. If you have ever seen a Greyhound run, you know they could not be happier doing what they were bred for.


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## LittleFr0g

Kyllobernese said:


> We used to breed Greyhounds, not for racing as there is no racing in Canada but we also got some dogs off the track. They all settled in very fast. They liked nothing better than getting out in a big area and just running for the sheer joy of running. I think dog racing like horse racing is tarred by the same brush. Most Greyhounds are properly fed and conditioned for racing, just like horses. If they are not properly looked after, they do not make it on the track so they would just be throwing money away. I know there are always "bad" trainers but they don't last long. If you have ever seen a Greyhound run, you know they could not be happier doing what they were bred for.


This! Every sport and industry will have it's bad apples, but that doesn't mean the whole industry is like that! The majority of racing greyhounds, just like the majority of race horses are very loved and well looked after, and love what they do. Don't tar the whole industry with the same brush.


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## nadia

No. No no no. Racetracks are GENERALLY AND MOST OF THE TIME horrible and there is a REASON that in 39 states it is ILLEGAL. Does this happen with agility?

In four other states, all dog tracks have closed although there is no law yet set against it. The states are Oregon Kansas Connecticut and Wisconsin.

Only SEVEN states remain in the US that legally race. There is a GOOD REASON for this. These organizations weren't shut down for the fun of it. PLEASE educate yourself and what racing greyhounds have to go through.

Long distance running is not sprinting. While races themselves don't last a particularly long time, racers practice for HOURS and are extremely over worked.


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## nadia

Also, to say killing the business will end the breed - firstly I don't really agree with that but even if it did I would MUCH RATHER a breed died through lack of breeding a loss of interest than dogs being bred for miserable lives and continuing. Wouldn't you?


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## sassafras

nadia said:


> Long distance running is not sprinting. While races themselves don't last a particularly long time, racers practice for HOURS and are extremely over worked.


May I ask, where is this information from? 

Not refuting it, it just doesn't make any sense to me that trainers would even get any value out of this. Sprinting muscles are physiologically different than endurance muscles, and training for hours isn't going to improve an animal's ability to sprint. Marathoners don't run the 100 yard dash and vice versa. You train for the sport you participate in whether you're a person or a dog.


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## nadia

Id also like to add that comparing greyhounds to horses is not a correct comparison. Horses and greyhounds are clearly built differently and greyhounds are not built for long hours of racing.

Greyhounds are kept in kennels while traveling that are not weather proof. Many greyhounds are susceptible to heat stroke and freezing because their body is not built for extreme weather conditions and due to the negligence of their "caretakers". They have extremely thin skin and many develop joint issues from sitting on hard concrete or under bars. Many suffer from flea and tick infestation from lack of care.


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## nadia

sassafras said:


> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long distance running is not sprinting. While races themselves don't last a particularly long time, racers practice for HOURS and are extremely over worked.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.animallaw.info/article/greyhounds-racing-their-deaths
> 
> I believe there's a section about being over worked, but this is one of MANY pages that explain the horrors Greys go through. Not to mention the 300+ small animals such as jackrabbits brought in each week and illegally used as live lures for greyhounds only to be ripped to shreds by the dogs. They often break the legs of the small animals so the cries will excite the dogs and encourage them to chase it.
Click to expand...


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## nadia

That's quoted strangely haha but you get the point


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## nadia

https://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/abomination-greyhound-racing

Here's another one by the ASPCA for those of you who still aren't convinced. Please do not support this horrible disgusting practice


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## nadia

A particular part that rubs me SO wrong is the bit where it says "16 Racing Greyhounds tested positive for cocaine". This is something I didn't know may be going on but I'm glad I know now. Awful.


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## Kyllobernese

Have you ever been at a Greyhound racing kennel? What would be the point in "training for hours"? The reason a lot of tracks have closed down for both Greyhounds and Horses is lack of people wanting to get into the racing. It is very expensive to do either as it costs a lot to keep animals in condition. We were in the horse racing for many years and gradually one by one, the smaller tracks closed down not due to horses being abused or anything, just not enough racing stock to keep them going where it was possible to make enough money to even cover expenses.


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## FallDeere

nadia said:


> Id also like to add that comparing greyhounds to horses is not a correct comparison. Horses and greyhounds are clearly built differently and greyhounds are not built for long hours of racing.


I have to ask... Are you campaigning for horse racing to end as well? Because if you're not, I see that as highly hypocritical. Both industries have cruelty within them.

Though I don't personally believe racing horses or greyhounds is inherently cruel. I don't know enough about it to say for sure, but I believe many people who race their animals treat them well and I do agree we need to stop the ones who are abusing the animals for the sake of the sport. I think completely getting rid of either sport, though, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.


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## nadia

Obviously you nor me is not going to see the ugliness of what goes on behind closed doors. There's a reason seaworld paints themselves to be wonderful to their animals when they really aren't. Have you read any of the greyhound pages such as the ASPCA that explains that many greyhounds die each year and suffer from lack of veterinary care as well as lack of socialization? How they routinely experience cardiac arrest, broken necks and legs, and paralysis from crushed spinal cords? Does non of that bother you or make you want to stop supporting them?

Like I said there is a GOOD reason only 7 states allow racing. Of the 21 tracks left 12 of them are in Florida where much of the neglect takes place.


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## nadia

FallDeere said:


> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Id also like to add that comparing greyhounds to horses is not a correct comparison. Horses and greyhounds are clearly built differently and greyhounds are not built for long hours of racing.
> 
> 
> 
> I have to ask... Are you campaigning for horse racing to end as well? Because if you're not, I see that as highly hypocritical. Both industries have cruelty within them.
> 
> Though I don't personally believe racing horses or greyhounds is inherently cruel. I don't know enough about it to say for sure, but I believe many people who race their animals treat them well and I do agree we need to stop the ones who are abusing the animals for the sake of the sport. I think completely getting rid of either sport, though, is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Click to expand...

No I do not support horse racing but this is a dog forum and I have not looked very far into horse racing. After all but 7 states shut down greyhound racing it's very clear to me that MOST practices are cruel and inhumane which is why I don't support the industry as a whole and believe they should be shut down or regulated more strictly so puppies aren't being culled and dying of broken spines smashed skulls and heat stroke or starvation etc


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## WonderBreadDots

nadia said:


> No I do not support horse racing but this is a dog forum and I have not looked very far into horse racing. After all but 7 states shut down greyhound racing it's very clear to me that MOST practices are cruel and inhumane which is why I don't support the industry as a whole and believe they should be shut down or regulated more strictly so puppies aren't being culled and dying of broken spines smashed skulls and heat stroke or starvation etc


Just curious, what do you propose happen to the greyhound puppies so they aren't culled? Who would take in these 85,000 puppies?

ETA Were all 85,000 puppies euthanized? There are a lot of assumptions and extrapolating in your one link.


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## sassafras

nadia said:


> sassafras said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.animallaw.info/article/greyhounds-racing-their-deaths
> 
> I believe there's a section about being over worked, but this is one of MANY pages that explain the horrors Greys go through. Not to mention the 300+ small animals such as jackrabbits brought in each week and illegally used as live lures for greyhounds only to be ripped to shreds by the dogs. They often break the legs of the small animals so the cries will excite the dogs and encourage them to chase it.
> 
> 
> 
> That article was published in 2003. Is there any follow up on whether or how practices have changed?
> 
> ETA: The ASPCA article is more current, thanks. But I don't like how they lump all injuries and deaths together. And 27 cases of cruelty or neglect between 2008-2015, while not awesome, doesn't seem like data to hang an "all of them are abused and neglected" hat on. There are probably more than 27 cases of cruelty or neglect every year by pet owners.
Click to expand...


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## nadia

WonderBreadDots said:


> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> No I do not support horse racing but this is a dog forum and I have not looked very far into horse racing. After all but 7 states shut down greyhound racing it's very clear to me that MOST practices are cruel and inhumane which is why I don't support the industry as a whole and believe they should be shut down or regulated more strictly so puppies aren't being culled and dying of broken spines smashed skulls and heat stroke or starvation etc
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious, what do you propose happen to the greyhound puppies so they aren't culled? Who would take in these 85,000 puppies?
> 
> ETA Were all 85,000 puppies euthanized? There are a lot of assumptions and extrapolating in your one link.
Click to expand...

That was over a 10 year period. And obviously the amount of puppies culled or euthanized wouldn't have all found homes. Which further justifies why they are clearly irresponsibly breeding these dogs and shouldn't be breeding all of those puppies if they know not all of them will have a purpose.


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## nadia

sassafras said:


> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sassafras said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.animallaw.info/article/greyhounds-racing-their-deaths
> 
> I believe there's a section about being over worked, but this is one of MANY pages that explain the horrors Greys go through. Not to mention the 300+ small animals such as jackrabbits brought in each week and illegally used as live lures for greyhounds only to be ripped to shreds by the dogs. They often break the legs of the small animals so the cries will excite the dogs and encourage them to chase it.
> 
> 
> 
> That article was published in 2003. Is there any follow up on whether or how practices have changed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Articles are easy to find but here are a few new ones on racing horrors
> 
> http://www.grey2kusa.org/pdf/GREY2KUSANationalFactSheet.pdf
> From a non profit trying to end racing
> 
> http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-08-31/greyhound-racing-nsw-cover-ups-tip-offs-revealed/6736034
> 2015 article on illegal use of live bait and the torture of small animals
> 
> http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7338024
> 2015 article about grey2kusa working on ending greyhound racing
> 
> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-32955011
> Cruelty in Australia as well
Click to expand...


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## sassafras

Lots of reading, thanks.


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## trainingjunkie

For balance: http://www.greyhoundinfo.org/?page_id=68


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## LittleFr0g

trainingjunkie said:


> For balance: http://www.greyhoundinfo.org/?page_id=68


Excellent article, thank you.


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## sassafras

Great. Now I have to think.


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## FallDeere

I found a single video of a single Greyhound kennel that keeps their dogs in tiny cages most of the time. I'd love it if people could post both more videos of bad treatment and some videos of good ones, if anyone can find either.

Here is the video of bad treatment I found after searching through links already posted: https://youtu.be/CzNbr2Yewpc?list=PLsDIMpuLhLPFEcElOgpf3lITUk4NsHZK-

I have to say, I can't imagine that's typical as it seems better treated animals will preform better. There is "bad" in every sport, but that doesn't mean everyone involved in the sport is bad or abusing the animals.

And honestly, I think greyhound racing overall seems less cruel than horse racing as the dogs run on their own. They don't have to carry someone or be urged to run. They just run. That's my mostly uninformed opinion, though. I've been on the fence about whether horse racing and greyhound racing are bad or okay for a while now. I'm still trying to form an opinion.


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## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> No. No no no. Racetracks are GENERALLY AND MOST OF THE TIME horrible and there is a REASON that in 39 states it is ILLEGAL. Does this happen with agility?
> 
> In four other states, all dog tracks have closed although there is no law yet set against it. The states are Oregon Kansas Connecticut and Wisconsin.
> 
> Only SEVEN states remain in the US that legally race. There is a GOOD REASON for this. These organizations weren't shut down for the fun of it. PLEASE educate yourself and what racing greyhounds have to go through.
> 
> Long distance running is not sprinting. While races themselves don't last a particularly long time, racers practice for HOURS and are extremely over worked.


I have been around racetracks my entire life..... Based on over 40 years of personal observation... I disagree... 

And your assertion that racers practice for hours and overwork dogs is absurd....


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## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> Also, to say killing the business will end the breed - firstly I don't really agree with that but even if it did I would MUCH RATHER a breed died through lack of breeding a loss of interest than dogs being bred for miserable lives and continuing. Wouldn't you?


But they are not living miserable lives in my opinion..... No I want the breed and racing to continue...


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## trainingjunkie

I love dogs. I really love sight hounds. If greyhound racing is as dark as some present it to be, I want to oppose it. But if a bunch of the information is distorted and untrue, I don't want to get all frothed up inappropriately. 

My experience is with whippets. All of the breeders behind my dogs lure course or straight-line race or both. The dogs in these sports are better cared for than I am and they are absolutely crazy to run. In fact, handlers get injured just trying to walk their dogs to the start boxes. 

Is greyhound racing significantly different than whippet racing? I don't know. But I don't want to be misled by either side.


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## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> Obviously you nor me is not going to see the ugliness of what goes on behind closed doors. There's a reason seaworld paints themselves to be wonderful to their animals when they really aren't. Have you read any of the greyhound pages such as the ASPCA that explains that many greyhounds die each year and suffer from lack of veterinary care as well as lack of socialization? How they routinely experience cardiac arrest, broken necks and legs, and paralysis from crushed spinal cords? Does non of that bother you or make you want to stop supporting them?
> 
> Like I said there is a GOOD reason only 7 states allow racing. Of the 21 tracks left 12 of them are in Florida where much of the neglect takes place.


I live in Florida and believe I have been to all of those tracks...


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## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> https://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/abomination-greyhound-racing
> 
> Here's another one by the ASPCA for those of you who still aren't convinced. Please do not support this horrible disgusting practice



Anything from the ASPCA only makes me MORE suspect.......

While not quite as bad as HSUS, they are a radical group with ZERO issue putting out distorted propaganda.... It is what they are best at...


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## nadia

I'd like to add that most irresponsible tracks in America are shut down HOWEVER with responsible tracks in America (I have looked into these and there are tracks that treat their dogs well) the dogs still do not live in a home like an agility, lure, or dock diving dog. They live in kennels and crates and get out four times a day. This isn't what I'd call an ideal life, so even the best aren't great. While they do get out and get basic care like nutrition and veterinary, they don't get to experience home life like even canine police dogs who go home with the officer every night.

Id also like to say that Australia is still HORRIBLE as far as racing goes, so it's not just America that I'm rooting against. Here's a good informational video about Australia racing specifically.

http://youtu.be/7poxop-segM

Some of the footage in this is disturbing but remember, true.


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## nadia

Also I want to make it perfectly clear

RACING GREYHOUNDS CAN BE A PERFECTLY SAFE AND FUN SPORT FOR DOG AND OWNER!

It's the practices behind the racetrack I don't condone not the activity itself.


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## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> I'd like to add that most irresponsible tracks in America are shut down HOWEVER with responsible tracks in America (I have looked into these and there are tracks that treat their dogs well) the dogs still do not live in a home like an agility, lure, or dock diving dog. They live in kennels and crates and get out four times a day. This isn't what I'd call an ideal life, so even the best aren't great. While they do get out and get basic care like nutrition and veterinary, they don't get to experience home life like even canine police dogs who go home with the officer every night.
> 
> Id also like to say that Australia is still HORRIBLE as far as racing goes, so it's not just America that I'm rooting against. Here's a good informational video about Australia racing specifically.
> 
> http://youtu.be/7poxop-segM
> 
> Some of the footage in this is disturbing but remember, true.


I have owned hunting dogs that lived in kennels.... They got a run every day... Around a field... But for months at a time, they would spend a LOT of time in a kennel...... 

And I have to ask you if you have ever seen a greyhound kennel? I presume not... They are LONG.... As in 30 yards long..... 

In any case, I have no issue with kenneling dogs...... Not every dog is destined to be a house dog...

Some of the BEST and GREATEST dogs I have owned never saw the inside of a house...


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## trainingjunkie

Here is one of my state's rescue group's take on the life of track dogs: 

http://minnesotagreyhoundrescue.org/about-greyhounds/life-on-the-track.html#page

While it is not what I dream of for my pet dogs, it is not horrific either. And I would think that the rescue group would be motivated to be proactive on the dog's behalf.


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## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> Also I want to make it perfectly clear
> 
> RACING GREYHOUNDS CAN BE A PERFECTLY SAFE AND FUN SPORT FOR DOG AND OWNER!
> 
> It's the practices behind the racetrack I don't condone not the activity itself.


The track does not care for the dogs.... The track runs the races..

The dog owners or their hired agents take care of the dogs.....

A dog owner is no more going to allow the track to take care of their dogs than American Pharoah's owner is going to let the track take of his horse...


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## nadia

The article you gave is one organization. That does not by any means, mean that all tracks follow those rules. Many of the things on that page are things I never stated to be true such as greyhounds wear a muzzle because they're mean or greyhounds are fed a poor diet.

Also the bit about each greyhound getting a "condo" rubs me the wrong way because no, they do not each get a little apartment. No matter how you put it, it's a kennel and they aren't any bigger than the grey to be able to either stand and turn around in, or stands walk a couple feet and turn around in. If this track happens to build "condos" then they are the exception not the rule, because even the YouTube videos of people explaining they take good care of their dogs - the dogs live in kennels.


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## WonderBreadDots

nadia said:


> The article you gave is one organization. That does not by any means, mean that all tracks follow those rules. Many of the things on that page are things I never stated to be true such as greyhounds wear a muzzle because they're mean or greyhounds are fed a poor diet.
> 
> Also the bit about each greyhound getting a "condo" rubs me the wrong way because no, they do not each get a little apartment. No matter how you put it, it's a kennel and they aren't any bigger than the grey to be able to either stand and turn around in, or stands walk a couple feet and turn around in. If this track happens to build "condos" then they are the exception not the rule, because even the YouTube videos of people explaining they take good care of their dogs - the dogs live in kennels.


Which tracks have you personally visited?


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## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> The article you gave is one organization. That does not by any means, mean that all tracks follow those rules. Many of the things on that page are things I never stated to be true such as greyhounds wear a muzzle because they're mean or greyhounds are fed a poor diet.
> 
> Also the bit about each greyhound getting a "condo" rubs me the wrong way because no, they do not each get a little apartment. No matter how you put it, it's a kennel and they aren't any bigger than the grey to be able to either stand and turn around in, or stands walk a couple feet and turn around in. If this track happens to build "condos" then they are the exception not the rule, because even the YouTube videos of people explaining they take good care of their dogs - the dogs live in kennels.


How many tracks have you been to? 

And I will go one better, how many greyhound kennels have you been to? 



A little advice..... Always bet on the dog that does its business on the track before the third race....


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## nadia

trainingjunkie said:


> Here is one of my state's rescue group's take on the life of track dogs:
> 
> http://minnesotagreyhoundrescue.org/about-greyhounds/life-on-the-track.html#page
> 
> While it is not what I dream of for my pet dogs, it is not horrific either. And I would think that the rescue group would be motivated to be proactive on the dog's behalf.


Here are some things that I don't like about that page, and we're assuming they're 100 percent truthful about what they're saying on the page.

"Most owners prefer to have little or no contact with the dogs, viewing them merely as investments while paying for their upkeep"

The dogs don't live in homes with an owner. The "owners" view them as investments. They live in kennels with a trainer. The reason this is bad is because when they are no longer trainable the owners don't want them. They dump them into a rescue. Bad. That's why so many need rescued. That's a sad existence imo.


"It is the trainers with whom the dogs have their relationships, and it is generally the trainer who determines (and advises the owner) when a dog's career is over, whether it be due to a lack of interest in racing, an injury, or just poor performance. And that can happen as early as age 2."

Injuries happen often on the race track, and oftentimes end in euthanasia because the owner doesn't want to spend the money to fix a non competitable greyhound. Their aim is to make money, not lose money. This is why they don't keep their hounds after they retire and why if the injury is bad enough, they're put to sleep. Bad.

"Presently, about 18,000 Greyhounds are adopted each year, but that still leaves thousands that are not."

Right there is admittance that thousands of greyhounds have very uncertain fates. That is in my opinion EXTREMELY irresponsible for a business to just leave all of these retired racers without homes.


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## LittleFr0g

nadia said:


> The article you gave is one organization. That does not by any means, mean that all tracks follow those rules. Many of the things on that page are things I never stated to be true such as greyhounds wear a muzzle because they're mean or greyhounds are fed a poor diet.
> 
> Also the bit about each greyhound getting a "condo" rubs me the wrong way because no, they do not each get a little apartment. No matter how you put it, it's a kennel and they aren't any bigger than the grey to be able to either stand and turn around in, or stands walk a couple feet and turn around in. If this track happens to build "condos" then they are the exception not the rule, because even the YouTube videos of people explaining they take good care of their dogs - the dogs live in kennels.


And you know this how?


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## nadia

> How many tracks have you been to?
> 
> And I will go one better, how many greyhound kennels have you been to?
> 
> 
> 
> A little advice..... Always bet on the dog that does its business on the track before the third race....


I have not been to a track, but the track is not my problem. I have spoken to three different rescues who obtain their greyhounds for the very reason they're trying to shut the tracks down. I've been told by the rescues that some of the greyhounds come to them with injuries from the race track. Most of the time the injuries are small like fractures, broken toes, and pulled muscles. Sometimes they receive dogs with larger issues that end in euthanasia because it's the only option. They told me that the dogs often have extra hurdles due to lack of socialization such as stairs, linoleum, and children. Most of them will never be able to be homed with cats or small dogs which makes finding them homes more difficult, since their prey drive has been reinforced their whole lives. The reinforcement of prey drive would be okay if they stayed with an owner who raced them and didn't have any small animals, but dropping them off in rescues makes it harder to find homes with people who have no interest in racing them and may have cats or small dogs. Many also have separation anxiety from being passed around from person to person and not having a definitive owner. The rescues housed anywhere from 12-30+ greyhounds in need of a home and that's just in my state alone. I spoke to only one rescue who supported racing but stated they got their racers from "reputable" tracks and they claimed if they weren't around the breed would die off (which I think is a horrible reason to keep them around)


----------



## sassafras

Plenty of greyhounds live with small dogs and cats and do fine in homes.


----------



## nadia

Kuma'sMom said:


> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> The article you gave is one organization. That does not by any means, mean that all tracks follow those rules. Many of the things on that page are things I never stated to be true such as greyhounds wear a muzzle because they're mean or greyhounds are fed a poor diet.
> 
> Also the bit about each greyhound getting a "condo" rubs me the wrong way because no, they do not each get a little apartment. No matter how you put it, it's a kennel and they aren't any bigger than the grey to be able to either stand and turn around in, or stands walk a couple feet and turn around in. If this track happens to build "condos" then they are the exception not the rule, because even the YouTube videos of people explaining they take good care of their dogs - the dogs live in kennels.
> 
> 
> 
> And you know this how?
Click to expand...


Like I said I have looked into it on both sides. The videos of people portraying their well taken care for greyhounds are STILL in small kennels.

http://youtu.be/Q5mTbyvdMxA
Example.

Anyway seeing as how only 7 states allow or have racing I highly doubt many of you have had the opportunity to visit a track, and for those of you that have unless you train racing greyhounds it's unlikely you've seen their kennels.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> I have not been to a track, but the track is not my problem. I have spoken to three different rescues who obtain their greyhounds for the very reason they're trying to shut the tracks down. I've been told by the rescues that some of the greyhounds come to them with injuries from the race track.


So..... In other words.... You really have no idea of how the dogs are cared for.... The prevalence of injuries....... Or anything else.....


You read something somewhere and heard some things, third, fourth, fifth hand...

Ah.... It is another....... I heard from my mom's hairdresser's, Stepson's cousin's girlfriends sister sort of deal...


----------



## JohnnyBandit

By the way.... You keep changing your argument...



nadia said:


> It's the practices behind the racetrack I don't condone not the activity itself.



Then.....



> but the track is not my problem.


----------



## nadia

sassafras said:


> Plenty of greyhounds live with small dogs and cats and do fine in homes.


Of course they are rehomable and can adjust, but often they are not rehomable with cats and small dogs and it says it on many grey rescue sites clearly "not with cats" etc


----------



## nadia

JohnnyBandit said:


> By the way.... You keep changing your argument...
> 
> 
> 
> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's the practices behind the racetrack I don't condone not the activity itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but the track is not my problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

No... Those are the same statement. It's not the activity on the track I do not condone. It's what goes on behind the track. The track is not the problem. It's the treatment.


----------



## CptJack

nadia said:


> Of course they are rehomable and can adjust, but often they are not rehomable with cats and small dogs and it says it on many grey rescue sites clearly "not with cats" etc


...Lots and lots of animals aren't able to be rehomed to homes with cats. Or kids. Or other dogs. Or chickens. Hounds, for example, even if never used to hunt a day in their lives are often not at all safe with small animals. 

That's got nothing at all to do with the price of tea in china. Or greyhound racing.


----------



## sassafras

nadia said:


> Of course they are rehomable and can adjust, but often they are not rehomable with cats and small dogs and it says it on many grey rescue sites clearly "not with cats" etc


Individual dogs may not be able to live with small dogs or cats, but many can. I don't think it's fair to say that "most" can't, as per your previous post.


----------



## nadia

JohnnyBandit said:


> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have not been to a track, but the track is not my problem. I have spoken to three different rescues who obtain their greyhounds for the very reason they're trying to shut the tracks down. I've been told by the rescues that some of the greyhounds come to them with injuries from the race track.
> 
> 
> 
> So..... In other words.... You really have no idea of how the dogs are cared for.... The prevalence of injuries....... Or anything else.....
> 
> 
> You read something somewhere and heard some things, third, fourth, fifth hand...
> 
> Ah.... It is another....... I heard from my mom's hairdresser's, Stepson's cousin's girlfriends sister sort of deal...
Click to expand...

No. It is not. You don't have to visit Chinese fur farms to disagree with fur. You don't have to go to seaworld to disagree with their practices. I don't have to visit a kennel to clearly notice I disagree with their practices. Even things stated clearly on RACING WEBSITES I disagree with and have posted on this thread.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> Like I said I have looked into it on both sides. The videos of people portraying their well taken care for greyhounds are STILL in small kennels.
> 
> http://youtu.be/Q5mTbyvdMxA
> Example.
> 
> Anyway seeing as how only 7 states allow or have racing I highly doubt many of you have had the opportunity to visit a track, and for those of you that have unless you train racing greyhounds it's unlikely you've seen their kennels.


So you are basing your opinion on watching videos.... And ONLY seeing what whomever made the video WANTED you to see..... Yea that makes a ton of sense....



Have you EVER looked into why Greyhound tracks are illegal in so many states?


----------



## nadia

CptJack said:


> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they are rehomable and can adjust, but often they are not rehomable with cats and small dogs and it says it on many grey rescue sites clearly "not with cats" etc
> 
> 
> 
> ...Lots and lots of animals aren't able to be rehomed to homes with cats. Or kids. Or other dogs. Or chickens. Hounds, for example, even if never used to hunt a day in their lives are often not at all safe with small animals.
> 
> That's got nothing at all to do with the price of tea in china. Or greyhound racing.
Click to expand...

That is ONE argument among 100s I have given to not support racetracks and it's not even a great one. It's just further making it difficult for them to find homes. Separation anxiety is not pretty either.


----------



## nadia

JohnnyBandit said:


> nadia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said I have looked into it on both sides. The videos of people portraying their well taken care for greyhounds are STILL in small kennels.
> 
> http://youtu.be/Q5mTbyvdMxA
> Example.
> 
> Anyway seeing as how only 7 states allow or have racing I highly doubt many of you have had the opportunity to visit a track, and for those of you that have unless you train racing greyhounds it's unlikely you've seen their kennels.
> 
> 
> 
> So you are basing your opinion on watching videos.... And ONLY seeing what whomever made the video WANTED you to see..... Yea that makes a ton of sense....
> 
> 
> 
> Have you EVER looked into why Greyhound tracks are illegal in so many states?
Click to expand...

Literally the only thing you have to do is Google "why is greyhound racing illegal" and there's your answer. Tons of articles that showcase the cruelty and neglect racers have faced


----------



## nadia

Okay well I have made my view perfectly clear. It's disgusting to me that people who claim to love animals will support this industry. Small animals are being torn to shreds for this and greyhounds are being neglected and tossed aside (not just in America this post is NOT just for American racetracks please look into Australia racetracks.)

Think what you'd like just don't think blindly.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> Literally the only thing you have to do is Google "why is greyhound racing illegal" and there's your answer. Tons of articles that showcase the cruelty and neglect racers have faced



You need to look deeper.... When you google you get propaganda sites like the ones you posted...


----------



## sassafras

nadia said:


> Think what you'd like just don't think blindly.


I applaud your passion, but it's no good to think blindly on either side of an issue.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> No. It is not. You don't have to visit Chinese fur farms to disagree with fur. You don't have to go to seaworld to disagree with their practices. I don't have to visit a kennel to clearly notice I disagree with their practices. Even things stated clearly on RACING WEBSITES I disagree with and have posted on this thread.


So you are saying you have no clue what goes on at Greyhound Kennels but you disagree anyway..... Gotcha...


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> Think what you'd like just don't think blindly.


Yet.... That is exactly what you are doing.....

And I agree with Sas.... Your passion is admirable....

But you have no clue of what goes on in the dog racing world.


----------



## nadia

Let's say we're speaking of a track that takes care of their dogs. These are things I still do not agree with that actual RACING TRACK WEBSITES have on their sites. (Not just "propaganda")

1) Females are pumped with testosterone to avoid heat
2) Owners have little to no contact with the dogs because they view them as investments
3) Because of this, they don't want to care for the dog after they retire, and it's not the trainers responsibility to care for the dog once it seizes to be a racer. The result in this is being dumped in shelters and rescues. So for those of you that will preach about "christmas puppies" and people tossing perfectly good dogs in the shelter because of reasons like "he got too big" or "we have a baby now" - then why support this?
4) Because "owners" are looking to make money not lose it, any injury can result in being retired and thrown to a rescue. This is because the owner often does not want to pay for the injury. If the injury is small like a broke toe, rescues will often care for it. For larger injuries, dogs are euthanized due to lack of funds by the rescues and from owners that don't want to deal with the veterinary cost of dogs they bought simply for investment and human entertainment. Those dogs pay the ultimate price of a negligent owner. (This information came from both racing websites and from three rescues I spoke to in my area about the consequences of racing, including one that supports the industry that admitted dogs are euth'd if the injuries are too expensive. Again, not "propaganda".)
5) Greyhounds live in kennels on or near the tracks that they race, not at home. Someone stated that they get up to 30 yards to run around in - and this is untrue. Their kennels are often built stacks to save room, and 30 yards of stack kennel is just about impossible. They sometime have room to walk around, but often times have no more room than to stand and turn. This information comes directly from videos OF REPUTABLE KENNELS that showcase their efforts to care for the dogs. However you put it - the dogs live in kennels.
6) Unlike police dogs, agility dogs, herding dogs, hunting dogs, basically all other sporting or working dogs - they don't have a home to go to, and their "owners" aren't interested in keeping them. They truly have no definitive home until the age of 2-4+ years, and even then their fate is uncertain. There are thousands in need of adoption that some may never find loving forever homes.
7) Because they are passed around so often, many develop separation anxiety, a serious problem that causes a lot of stress in dogs.

This is from a website that is trying to support greyhound racing:
"Those that are unsuitable for adoption or breeding programs are humanely euthanized by licensed veterinarians under American Veterinary Medical Association guidelines."

EDIT: So basically the dogs fate after racing is one of these things:

- Breeding stock, where it will be used simply to be bred.
- Rescue groups, where it will hope for a home
- Euthanasia, because they breed and toss away too many dogs to find homes.

These are FACTS. These are factual reasons to not support the industry. This is not a fair way for a dog to live.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> Let's say we're speaking of a track that takes care of their dogs. These are things I still do not agree with that actual RACING TRACK WEBSITES have on their sites. (Not just "propaganda")
> 
> 1) Females are pumped with testosterone to avoid heat
> 2) Owners have little to no contact with the dogs because they view them as investments
> 3) Because of this, they don't want to care for the dog after they retire, and it's not the trainers responsibility to care for the dog once it seizes to be a racer. The result in this is being dumped in shelters and rescues. So for those of you that will preach about "christmas puppies" and people tossing perfectly good dogs in the shelter because of reasons like "he got too big" or "we have a baby now" - then why support this?
> 4) Because "owners" are looking to make money not lose it, any injury can result in being retired and thrown to a rescue. This is because the owner often does not want to pay for the injury. If the injury is small like a broke toe, rescues will often care for it. For larger injuries, dogs are euthanized due to lack of funds by the rescues and from owners that don't want to deal with the veterinary cost of dogs they bought simply for investment and human entertainment. Those dogs pay the ultimate price of a negligent owner. (This information came from both racing websites and from three rescues I spoke to in my area about the consequences of racing, including one that supports the industry that admitted dogs are euth'd if the injuries are too expensive. Again, not "propaganda".)
> 5) Greyhounds live in kennels on or near the tracks that they race, not at home. Someone stated that they get up to 30 yards to run around in - and this is untrue. Their kennels are often built stacks to save room, and 30 yards of stack kennel is just about impossible. They sometime have room to walk around, but often times have no more room than to stand and turn. This information comes directly from videos OF REPUTABLE KENNELS that showcase their efforts to care for the dogs. However you put it - the dogs live in kennels.
> 6) Unlike police dogs, agility dogs, herding dogs, hunting dogs, basically all other sporting or working dogs - they don't have a home to go to, and their "owners" aren't interested in keeping them. They truly have no definitive home until the age of 2-4+ years, and even then their fate is uncertain. There are thousands in need of adoption that some may never find loving forever homes.
> 7) Because they are passed around so often, many develop separation anxiety, a serious problem that causes a lot of stress in dogs.
> 
> This is from a website that is trying to support greyhound racing:
> "Those that are unsuitable for adoption or breeding programs are humanely euthanized by licensed veterinarians under American Veterinary Medical Association guidelines."
> 
> EDIT: So basically the dogs fate after racing is one of these things:
> 
> - Breeding stock, where it will be used simply to be bred.
> - Rescue groups, where it will hope for a home
> - Euthanasia, because they breed and toss away too many dogs to find homes.
> 
> These are FACTS. These are factual reasons to not support the industry. This is not a fair way for a dog to live.


No.... These are things you have read off of sites against dog racing.... It does NOT make them facts...

Maybe direct your energy and passion towards something you can actually gain factual first hand knowledge of...


----------



## sassafras

Well obviously racing greyhounds are not living in the lap of luxury. I'm not so sure how they actually DO live though, and I'm unlikely to find an unbiased source unless I decide to find a track and see for myself. I think it's probably similar to almost anything - they don't all live the same way, some kennels are better or worse than others. 

It doesn't necessarily bother me that owners don't have contact with the dogs. Or that the dogs live at the track. They are working dogs, not pets (unless they retire to rescue). I don't think those things are inherently awful. 

In any case, I can't really be said to support greyhound racing. I've never been to a track, I don't bet on races, I really have no participation in them. There are other issues I find more immediately pressing, though, so I guess I can't really be said to not support them, either.


----------



## nadia

NO they are not. They are from websites FOR greyhound racing. They come from these two websites (and these are only TWO websites!)

http://minnesotagreyhoundrescue.org/about-greyhounds/life-on-the-track.html#page
You can find information on owners seeing their dogs as investments, trainers keeping them in kennels, pumping their females with testosterone, as well as early retirement which translates to dropped off in rescues here. It also admits thousands of greyhounds still have uncertain fates.

http://www.gra-america.org/media_kit/press/mediakit.html
While this website tries to paint everything in a kind way, they give no support to back up their claims that they're extensively working on efforts to keep racing safe and limit injury, as well as no statistics to support their claims that they're making efforts to try to cut back on breeding to ensure all greyhounds are adopted. Their examples are outdated, using examples from 1997 to support their breeding practices. Out of the 30,000 dogs bred in 1997 (which is unrelated to the statistics now which were not given - suspicious to me) only 18,000 found homes. What happened to the rest?
This site also had the statement about euthanasia. Number 8 states:
"Those that are unsuitable for adoption or breeding programs are humanely euthanized by licensed veterinarians under American Veterinary Medical Association guidelines."
This is terrible practice, and they don't back any of what they're saying on the website. Not to mention their information is wildly outdated, and if they claim they're working so hard to prevent over breeding and euthanized dogs, why isn't it better if they began doing that in 1997? That's 18 years of no improvement!

I would say that I consider THAT website propaganda.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

sassafras said:


> Well obviously racing greyhounds are not living in the lap of luxury. I'm not so sure how they actually DO live though, and I'm unlikely to find an unbiased source unless I decide to find a track and see for myself. I think it's probably similar to almost anything - they don't all live the same way, some kennels are better or worse than others.
> 
> It doesn't necessarily bother me that owners don't have contact with the dogs. Or that the dogs live at the track. They are working dogs, not pets (unless they retire to rescue). I don't think those things are inherently awful.
> 
> In any case, I can't really be said to support greyhound racing. I've never been to a track, I don't bet on races, I really have no participation in them. There are other issues I find more immediately pressing, though, so I guess I can't really be said to not support them, either.



Bet on the dog that does its business on the track before the third race...


----------



## nadia

sassafras said:


> Well obviously racing greyhounds are not living in the lap of luxury. I'm not so sure how they actually DO live though, and I'm unlikely to find an unbiased source unless I decide to find a track and see for myself. I think it's probably similar to almost anything - they don't all live the same way, some kennels are better or worse than others.
> 
> It doesn't necessarily bother me that owners don't have contact with the dogs. Or that the dogs live at the track. They are working dogs, not pets (unless they retire to rescue). I don't think those things are inherently awful.
> 
> In any case, I can't really be said to support greyhound racing. I've never been to a track, I don't bet on races, I really have no participation in them. There are other issues I find more immediately pressing, though, so I guess I can't really be said to not support them, either.


IMO, the issue of over breeding and euthanized animals due to owners not keeping or caring for their dogs because they see them only as investments is PLENTY of reason for me not to support them. Dogs should NOT be dying for human gain.


----------



## FallDeere

nadia said:


> Dogs should NOT be dying for human gain.


Dogs specifically or any animal?


----------



## sassafras

nadia said:


> IMO, the issue of over breeding and euthanized animals due to owners not keeping or caring for their dogs because they see them only as investments is PLENTY of reason for me not to support them. Dogs should NOT be dying for human gain.


K.

(tooshort)


----------



## nadia

Any animal! I'm vegan. But nice try.


----------



## FallDeere

Nice try? I was just asking. =/ Too many people whine about specific cruelties without even caring about other animals' suffering, so I'm glad you're consistent. Nothing worse than a hypocrite.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> IMO, the issue of over breeding and euthanized animals due to owners not keeping or caring for their dogs because they see them only as investments is PLENTY of reason for me not to support them. Dogs should NOT be dying for human gain.



That does not support opposition to dog racing...


----------



## WonderBreadDots

nadia said:


> IMO, the issue of over breeding and euthanized animals due to owners not keeping or caring for their dogs because they see them only as investments is PLENTY of reason for me not to support them. Dogs should NOT be dying for human gain.


So, other than not visiting any dog racing tracks, watching videos and reading stuff on the Internet, what are you personally doing, besides posting on dogforums.com, to stop greyhound racing and closing down racing tracks?

You have passion, but I'm wondering if you might just be spinning your wheels here.


----------



## nadia

FallDeere said:


> Nice try? I was just asking. =/ Too many people whine about specific cruelties without even caring about other animals' suffering, so I'm glad you're consistent. Nothing worse than a hypocrite.


Wasn't meaning to sound rude or sarcastic! I'm just very frustrated right now. Something that is harming thousands of dogs a year is being supported by a DOG FORUM and I feel a bit betrayed. :/


----------



## sassafras

It's not being "supported" by the "DOG FORUM." There are people questioning the accuracy of your sources and your experience. That doesn't equate supporting anything. 

And also, the forum is not a hive mind. It's made up of individuals. The forum doesn't support or not support anything, really.


----------



## nadia

WonderBreadDots said:


> So, other than not visiting any dog racing tracks, watching videos and reading stuff on the Internet, what are you personally doing, besides posting on dogforums.com, to stop greyhound racing and closing down racing tracks?
> 
> You have passion, but I'm wondering if you might just be spinning your wheels here.


Informing people so that people know what's going on and understand what's not okay about it. Inspiring people to adopt greyhounds because they DESPERATELY need homes and aren't a breed many think about. I don't just post about this on dogforums. I post about it on all of my social media as well as sign petitions to help shut down irresponsible racetracks. My aim for this post was to inform. I don't understand why so many people are questioning my motives when all I'm trying to do is save dogs. Some people on here get so attack-y and it just doesn't make sense to me. I love animals and want to help them have the best lives possible. A greyhounds life sucks.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> Wasn't meaning to sound rude or sarcastic! I'm just very frustrated right now. Something that is harming thousands of dogs a year is being supported by a DOG FORUM and I feel a bit betrayed. :/


But you do not know that thousands of dogs are harmed each year.....


All you know it what you read on the internet....Information from people that only told you exactly what they wanted you to think....


----------



## FallDeere

I only see one person supporting it actively and the rest really seem to want more proof of the claims. I certainly would love to see real proof of this abuse, or proof of how well they're treated if the opposition wants to show such proof.


----------



## nadia

sassafras said:


> It's not being "supported" by the "DOG FORUM." There are people questioning the accuracy of your sources and your experience. That doesn't equate supporting anything.
> 
> And also, the forum is not a hive mind. It's made up of individuals. The forum doesn't support or not support anything, really.


It's being supported by individuals who are more interested in attacking my motives and me than learning about the issue and educating themselves on the problem. I've experienced this more than once on here, of people approaching me rudely or in a demeaning way to tell me something I'm saying is wrong instead of just politely telling me how I'm incorrect. In this case, I feel I'm not incorrect. And yes, a couple people on this forum clearly do and have stated they support the racing industry which is horrific to me.


----------



## nadia

FallDeere said:


> I only see one person supporting it actively and the rest really seem to want more proof of the claims. I certainly would love to see real proof of this abuse, or proof of how well they're treated if the opposition wants to show such proof.


I have tried so hard to give everyone what I've heard from people that know what they're talking about and from websites that put it out there but still race dogs and videos that SHOW the living conditions and the girl saying "See! We care for our dogs!" and to me it's just blatant mis-care that everyone is trying to come up with more reasons to defend.


----------



## sassafras

nadia said:


> It's being supported by individuals who are more interested in attacking my motives and me than learning about the issue and educating themselves on the problem. I've experienced this more than once on here, of people approaching me rudely or in a demeaning way to tell me something I'm saying is wrong instead of just politely telling me how I'm incorrect. In this case, I feel I'm not incorrect. And yes, a couple people on this forum clearly do and have stated they support the racing industry which is horrific to me.


Well, people like their lively debates here. And it's the internet, lots of people are going to want proof before believing a post and are going to have opinions that differ from yours and potentially horrify you. It's not a betrayal, it's just life.


----------



## WonderBreadDots

nadia said:


> Informing people so that people know what's going on and understand what's not okay about it. Inspiring people to adopt greyhounds because they DESPERATELY need homes and aren't a breed many think about. I don't just post about this on dogforums. I post about it on all of my social media as well as sign petitions to help shut down irresponsible racetracks. My aim for this post was to inform. I don't understand why so many people are questioning my motives when all I'm trying to do is save dogs. Some people on here get so attack-y and it just doesn't make sense to me. I love animals and want to help them have the best lives possible. A greyhounds life sucks.


Here is my problem- you paint the greyhound racing with a very wide brush, most of your links all go back to one source. I can't take someone seriously who hasn't even been to a race track. Your passionate, but your credibility isn't there for me.


----------



## nadia

sassafras said:


> Well, people like their lively debates here. And it's the internet, lots of people are going to want proof before believing a post and are going to have opinions that differ from yours and potentially horrify you. It's not a betrayal, it's just life.


That's fine. People can disagree. It's just horrifying to me because this is the reason these dogs will still live miserable uncertain fates and that's horrible and I can't understand why people "disagree" with that. It is what it is, and it's sad.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> I have tried so hard to give everyone what I've heard from people that know what they're talking about and from websites that put it out there but still race dogs and videos that SHOW the living conditions and the girl saying "See! We care for our dogs!" and to me it's just blatant mis-care that everyone is trying to come up with more reasons to defend.


What you have "heard" does not equal seeing it first hand........

Videos.... Websites..... Yada yada yada..... The fact is.... You only know what those folks that edited the videos and wrote the content of the websites wants you to know....

But what you do not know is what really goes on.....



nadia said:


> That's fine. People can disagree. It's just horrifying to me because this is the reason these dogs will still live miserable uncertain fates and that's horrible and I can't understand why people "disagree" with that. It is what it is, and it's sad.


Only thing is... You do not know they are miserable....


----------



## nadia

WonderBreadDots said:


> Here is my problem- you paint the greyhound racing with a very wide brush, most of your links all go back to one source. I can't take someone seriously who hasn't even been to a race track. Your passionate, but your credibility isn't there for me.


I don't paint it with a wide brush though. Ive given BOTH sides, and BOTH SIDES have shown me things that I very strongly disagree with. I don't see how someone can sit here and tell me that it's okay for greyhounds to be over bred and not have homes and be euthanized becuase of that, (that's a FACT that's on many greyhound racing websites that they try to paint in a better light by saying they're working on "cutting back" on breeding but showing no improvement) and for them to be used solely for human entertainment and profit before being tossed away. HOW can someone thing that's ok and support it?

They showed me the good side of racing and i still dislike the "good side" so what they "want me to see" is supposed to make me agree with racing and i still disagree.


----------



## sassafras

But they HAVE shown improvement according to the links you have already posted.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

nadia said:


> I don't paint it with a wide brush though. Ive given BOTH sides, and BOTH SIDES have shown me things that I very strongly disagree with.\


You DID paint with a WIDE WIDE brush.... And you have NOT given both sides.... 

Only YOUR side....


----------



## sassafras

"People are free to have their own opinions, but I don't understand why they are such horrible people" lol. Not demeaning at all.


----------



## FallDeere

No one is trying to make you _like _racing. You're free to disagree with the "good" and the bad. But you can't force people to agree with you. I'm sorry that's upsetting to you. I understand that pain, I really do. I've been there on other topics and it is so frustrating when others won't see your point of view when you feel in you're heart that you're right. Thank you for posting the information you have. You've spread the word and now others can take that information and do with it as they will. Some will agree, some with research further and make their own decision, and some will disagree. There isn't much else you can do at this point. I will certainly research the subject more thoroughly and come to my own conclusion.


----------



## nadia

In my opinion, most of the people on this forum that I have come into contact with have been extremely unreasonable, attacking, and demeaning but I guess "that's life" right? My aim was to inform people but apparently you people don't care enough about over breeding and dogs being tossed to shelters because their owners don't care about them. Or maybe you're just too stubborn to admit that I'm right and it's wrong. Either way this is not a forum I want to be apart of. You may disagree and that's fine, but I don't want to be apart of any group of people that can sit here and ask me how I'm wrong when clear facts will show you that these dogs lead bad lives, yet I'm still being questioned. I have thought about deleting this account several times and this just pushed me over the edge. Greyhound racing is inhumane and I will never support it. I ask that you at least consider what I'm saying and stop supporting it, because no matter what he says she says - 900+ greyhounds still die every year from racing. Many more are left without homes.


----------



## WonderBreadDots

nadia said:


> In my opinion, most of the people on this forum that I have come into contact with have been extremely unreasonable, attacking, and demeaning but I guess "that's life" right? My aim was to inform people but apparently you people don't care enough about over breeding and dogs being tossed to shelters because their owners don't care about them.


Again, painting with a wide brush...

It's ok for people to have differing opinions, some of the best debates happen when both sides are truly trying to inform instead of recruiting for their "side".


----------



## sassafras

Oh dear. I'm sorry you're disappointed that we aren't an echo chamber.


----------



## nadia

And I'm sorry you don't think overbreeding and abandoned dogs are terrible but I guess we all have different opinions eh?


----------



## FallDeere

ONE person here has said they actively support racing and yet you are insulting all of us. =/ I've stated that I'm looking into it and will decide my opinion on racing after I've researched properly. Others have just asked for real proof, not parroted biased information and biased videos. No one has said they don't think overbreeding and abandoning is terrible. IF everything you have said is true, then yes, racing is not good. However, some people want real proof before deciding what side they choose to support. There is a lot of biased information out there. _Anything _can be made to look bad.


----------



## sassafras

nadia said:


> And I'm sorry you don't think overbreeding and abandoned dogs are terrible but I guess we all have different opinions eh?


Where did I say that exactly? I forgot. 

Looks like you'll fit in just fine with the rude and demeaning crowd. -_-


----------



## WonderBreadDots

nadia said:


> And I'm sorry you don't think overbreeding and abandoned dogs are terrible but I guess we all have different opinions eh?


Good luck with your crusade.


----------



## RonE

People that come to this forum with an agenda or a single goal seldom stick around long - whether that goal is to sell an idea or a product or to get medical advice in lieu of going to a vet. 

For the record, this forum does not support greyhound racing. In fact, the forum supports nothing more than a free and open exchange of ideas (and there are limits to that.)

The last greyhound tracks in Wisconsin closed for simple economic reasons. There was one about six miles from where I used to live and, like the others, it lost a lot of money for years before they finally gave up. People who wanted to gamble were going to the casinos and people who wanted to watch greyhounds run were going to the dogpark. I myself spent a lot of time watching the antics and athleticism of these magnificent dogs when they'd goad my dog into running with them, only to leave her in the dust just when she thought she could actually keep up. 

Your passion is not lost here, but your anger and bitterness is misplaced.


----------



## BostonBullMama

This has been an interesting read... 

There were several statements made that I would have liked to comment on, but one alone really stood out to me.... 



> Originally Posted by nadia
> And I'm sorry you don't think overbreeding and abandoned dogs are terrible but I guess we all have different opinions eh?


The fact is, the majority of this forum - from what I have seen first hand - does feel over breeding is terrible. And you can find proof of that in many breeding threads, one breed that rings in my mind is the English Bulldog, it has come up multiple times as being a breed that really, should not exist as the majority of dogs within the breed are no longer able to free-whelp puppies and the health problems dramatically decrease this breeds quality of life. 

Now I disagree with that thought, and feel that rather than demolish the breed, it should simply be tweaked, blah blah blah.... BUT I do agree that their quality of life isn't what I'd aspire for in a breed... the breathing problems and so on... 

Anyway, my point was that from what I've seen, people here don't condone over breeding, by any means, within any breed. And at bare minimum - I certainly don't. 

Secondly, stating that folks don't feel that abandoning dogs is a terrible thing would also be untrue and an unfair statement. Many of us, again - from what I've seen in threads here - are large supporters of rescues. I work within a few rescue groups, and I know I am not the only forum member who does. It breaks my heart when an animal is abandoned, mostly because a lot of the time the animals are SO scared and have no idea what is going on, but as they learn to trust you, you learn who they are and often times these animals are so sweet. 

I have not been to a Greyhound race track. I have not seen their living conditions first hand, nor witnessed their 'owners' treating them as simple investments... However, if what you say is true, then yes, that is an unfortunate thing. That said, it does not make sense to me, that the greyhounds would be living in squalor. Even if we look at this from the unfortunate angle of an investment - would you put your money into a dog that is healthy, well fed, well toned/conditioned, and regularly vetted to win races? 
Or would you put your money into a dog that is fed less than ideal quality of food that may not effectively provide the nutrition needed and required for good muscle tone, is not very healthy, and does not regularly see a veterinarian for health care? 

My money, from an investment standpoint, would be on the healthy well cared for dog. 

Another thing, you mentioned the dogs are often retired between 18m - 4 years. If you look at the dogs overall lifespan, that isn't really too bad. 
Sure, some folks see their dogs as nothing more than money makers (similar to what you'd see in a puppy mill I should think) and don't really have an attachment to the dog and place them in shelters or rescues, but I am sure there are a few "investors" who have met their heart dog and brought them home after the work day, and allowed them a quiet retirement in their house. 

The thing is - I don't see putting the dogs in shelters or rescues as being a bad thing if your interest was never really in the dog itself. I mean really, if the investor has no attachment to the dog then who says the care would remain adequate once they were forced to bring the dog home and into retirement? I would rather see these dogs go to shelters where they can one day be adopted by a family who will treasure them. 

The argument that there are thousands killed yearly is also moot, as thousands of other dogs are also over bred and killed for having "no purpose". It's the sad reality of the world we live in. And it doesn't stop at dogs. 

Also, you mentioned that these dogs, once in rescues, cannot go to homes with small animals - this isn't because of the track. These are sight hounds, they are bred to chase quick moving animals. The race track is not reinforcing their prey drive, they just ARE drive-y dogs. It would take an admirable amount of training to teach a sight hound to ignore their most basic instinct. It would be like trying to teach a bloodhound to ignore their nose. 

You passion is absolutely admirable, and I feel that your heart is in the right place. However I am hesitant to jump on the band wagon without first doing more of my own research.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs

Kuma'sMom said:


> This! Every sport and industry will have it's bad apples, but that doesn't mean the whole industry is like that! The majority of racing greyhounds, just like the majority of race horses are very loved and well looked after, and love what they do. Don't tar the whole industry with the same brush.


Yep, dont judge everyone by the actions of a few.



nadia said:


> No. No no no. Racetracks are GENERALLY AND MOST OF THE TIME horrible and there is a REASON that in 39 states it is ILLEGAL. Does this happen with agility?
> 
> In four other states, all dog tracks have closed although there is no law yet set against it. The states are Oregon Kansas Connecticut and Wisconsin.
> 
> Only SEVEN states remain in the US that legally race. There is a GOOD REASON for this. These organizations weren't shut down for the fun of it. PLEASE educate yourself and what racing greyhounds have to go through.
> 
> Long distance running is not sprinting. While races themselves don't last a particularly long time, racers practice for HOURS and are extremely over worked.


Most were shut down for financial reasons, not cruelty reasons, like RonE said.



nadia said:


> Obviously you nor me is not going to see the ugliness of what goes on behind closed doors. There's a reason seaworld paints themselves to be wonderful to their animals when they really aren't. Have you read any of the greyhound pages such as the ASPCA that explains that many greyhounds die each year and suffer from lack of veterinary care as well as lack of socialization? How they routinely experience cardiac arrest, broken necks and legs, and paralysis from crushed spinal cords? Does non of that bother you or make you want to stop supporting them?
> 
> Like I said there is a GOOD reason only 7 states allow racing. Of the 21 tracks left 12 of them are in Florida where much of the neglect takes place.


Yes, because the ASPCA is an upright organization, too right? You know how much their CEO makes? Maybe you should read these:
http://www.examiner.com/article/merry-grinch-mas-the-truth-about-aspca-and-hsus-spending
www.nathanwinograd.com/?cat=8



nadia said:


> I'd like to add that most irresponsible tracks in America are shut down HOWEVER with responsible tracks in America (I have looked into these and there are tracks that treat their dogs well) the dogs still do not live in a home like an agility, lure, or dock diving dog. They live in kennels and crates and get out four times a day. This isn't what I'd call an ideal life, so even the best aren't great. While they do get out and get basic care like nutrition and veterinary, they don't get to experience home life like even canine police dogs who go home with the officer every night.
> 
> Id also like to say that Australia is still HORRIBLE as far as racing goes, so it's not just America that I'm rooting against. Here's a good informational video about Australia racing specifically.
> 
> http://youtu.be/7poxop-segM
> 
> Some of the footage in this is disturbing but remember, true.


I couldnt even get through this video because of the level of stupid in it. 

You know that hunting trials use live game, right? JRT hunting trials, the terriers track and hunt a live animal and it is dispatched at the end (either by the dogs or the hunter). What about hog hunting? Against that, too? Because if you think this is the only place where this kind of training is used, you are mistaken. Herding dogs, even though they dont kill, the stock is "harassed" so should we ban that, too? 

I mean ... come on 

I for one ENJOY watching dogs do what they were bred to do, greyhounds (like other sighthounds) were bred to run down game, they LOVE to run, if they didnt, they wouldnt, simple as that, there is no one there whipping them, making them run, you can clearly see they ENJOY it. 



nadia said:


> Let's say we're speaking of a track that takes care of their dogs. These are things I still do not agree with that actual RACING TRACK WEBSITES have on their sites. (Not just "propaganda")
> 
> 1) Females are pumped with testosterone to avoid heat
> 2) Owners have little to no contact with the dogs because they view them as investments
> 3) Because of this, they don't want to care for the dog after they retire, and it's not the trainers responsibility to care for the dog once it seizes to be a racer. The result in this is being dumped in shelters and rescues. So for those of you that will preach about "christmas puppies" and people tossing perfectly good dogs in the shelter because of reasons like "he got too big" or "we have a baby now" - then why support this?
> 4) Because "owners" are looking to make money not lose it, any injury can result in being retired and thrown to a rescue. This is because the owner often does not want to pay for the injury. If the injury is small like a broke toe, rescues will often care for it. For larger injuries, dogs are euthanized due to lack of funds by the rescues and from owners that don't want to deal with the veterinary cost of dogs they bought simply for investment and human entertainment. Those dogs pay the ultimate price of a negligent owner. (This information came from both racing websites and from three rescues I spoke to in my area about the consequences of racing, including one that supports the industry that admitted dogs are euth'd if the injuries are too expensive. Again, not "propaganda".)
> 5) Greyhounds live in kennels on or near the tracks that they race, not at home. Someone stated that they get up to 30 yards to run around in - and this is untrue. Their kennels are often built stacks to save room, and 30 yards of stack kennel is just about impossible. They sometime have room to walk around, but often times have no more room than to stand and turn. This information comes directly from videos OF REPUTABLE KENNELS that showcase their efforts to care for the dogs. However you put it - the dogs live in kennels.
> 6) Unlike police dogs, agility dogs, herding dogs, hunting dogs, basically all other sporting or working dogs - they don't have a home to go to, and their "owners" aren't interested in keeping them. They truly have no definitive home until the age of 2-4+ years, and even then their fate is uncertain. There are thousands in need of adoption that some may never find loving forever homes.
> 7) Because they are passed around so often, many develop separation anxiety, a serious problem that causes a lot of stress in dogs.
> 
> This is from a website that is trying to support greyhound racing:
> "Those that are unsuitable for adoption or breeding programs are humanely euthanized by licensed veterinarians under American Veterinary Medical Association guidelines."
> 
> EDIT: So basically the dogs fate after racing is one of these things:
> 
> - Breeding stock, where it will be used simply to be bred.
> - Rescue groups, where it will hope for a home
> - Euthanasia, because they breed and toss away too many dogs to find homes.
> 
> These are FACTS. These are factual reasons to not support the industry. This is not a fair way for a dog to live.


So basically anyone who doesnt keep a dog the way you would, or feed them the way you would or whatever is wrong, then? Also someone asked, how many track backsides have you visited? or is this all just hearsay from "someone who knows someone who knows someone's 2nd cousin" who works in the business?



nadia said:


> Any animal! I'm vegan. But nice try.


Ah, that explains a lot ... sorry, but it does LOL.


----------



## Willowy

I feel as though if people who did agility, or obedience, or whatever other dogsport were breeding dogs, then using them until they no longer amused them, then killed them or dumped them in rescue, many--probably most--dog people would object. But it's OK if it's racing, because money. 

Yeah that's not hypocritical :/.


----------



## Dog Person

I was under the impression that it used to be a problem and when it came to light of the conditions the dogs were in, things changed. I didn't think that people were smuggling Greyhounds out of kennels anymore to save them.

Funny thing is I have heard that even the Iditarod is being touted as being cruel. A whole set of dogs have been bred for pulling sleds; apparently they love to do it.


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## Willowy

More greyhounds are killed than adopted out still (look up production numbers, then adoption numbers. Something happened to the rest). 

I have problems with the way a lot of sled dogs are managed as well. It's less commercial, but washouts are still killed.


----------



## RonE

Willowy said:


> I feel as though if people who did agility, or obedience, or whatever other dogsport were breeding dogs, then using them until they no longer amused them, then killed them or dumped them in rescue, many--probably most--dog people would object. But it's OK if it's racing, because money.
> 
> Yeah that's not hypocritical :/.


So for the dog owners who object to greyhound racing - what action should they take? 

Tracks are running out of money and closing up. Most of us have no tracks in our states. Is joining a dog forum to rant (mostly to the choir) the only reasonable course of action?

If you complain without a proposed solution, it's called whining.

People routinely get upset about abusive breeding practices that make money, e.g. puppy mills and pet stores. You can't fix everything,so you pick your battles, you focus your rage and you don't get upset with those that are fighting their own battles.


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## Dog Person

Willowy said:


> More greyhounds are killed than adopted out still (look up production numbers, then adoption numbers. Something happened to the rest).
> 
> I have problems with the way a lot of sled dogs are managed as well. It's less commercial, but washouts are still killed.


Are the numbers of Greyhounds percentage wise that much higher then the number of total dogs from shelters killed percentage wise?


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## Willowy

LOL, if not for whining, the internet would have dissolved a long time ago .

Even a whiny rant may motivate someone to donate to rescue or stop supporting something in some way. Even a lurker. Even someone who argues at first but considers the issue and changes their mind later. I don't think angry ranting is useless. Sometimes it changes things.


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## CptJack

Willowy said:


> I feel as though if people who did agility, or obedience, or whatever other dogsport were breeding dogs, then using them until they no longer amused them, then killed them or dumped them in rescue, many--probably most--dog people would object. But it's OK if it's racing, because money.
> 
> Yeah that's not hypocritical :/.


I feel like there are basically people who object to any dog not living the life of a pet, and people who don't. 

I really think that's about the extent of it. Not the putting the dogs in rescue (I'm not touching euthing because I've seen little actual evidence that greyhounds are euthanized rather than sent out to rescue), but that they are owned by a third party, live in kennels, and aren't pets. 

That horrifies some people and I feel like if the average agility dog was kenneled and run by a professional handler and then rehomed at the end of it's career people WOULD have fits. 

I wouldn't. I LOVE my pet dogs, but I've also lived with dogs who are kenneled when not 'working' (hunting - ours were mostly beagles with some stints in the big coonhounds), and who absolutely did not live a pet life. Some retired to pet status with us when they were too old to hunt. Most didn't. They got rehomed. The ones with us never lived indoors, even when 'retired' but started getting walks on a leash and some time hanging out on the porch to sleep away their days in a patch of sunshine. 

I have ... zero issue with that. 

Other people would have major issues with it. 

The way my dad treated his 'pet' GSDs and, before that, working k9s, that lived indoors and slept in the house, on the other hand.... But that's a whole different topic.

So, basically what I'm saying here is that for me to 'oppose' greyhound racing instead of having it just be a non-thing for me that I neither support nor oppose (and basically just don't care about, to tell the truth) I want to see evidence of active mistreatment. That means real evidence of actual neglect or abuse. Not having a limited life made up of living in a kennel and 'working' (running). Filthy conditions, lack of vet care, over exercise or total lack thereof. 

I'm not seeing that, so I'm living in the camp of 'eh, whatever'.

Dogs exist to serve human whims. EVERY LAST ONE of them, and if you have a breed? Well, you have a breed developed to, in some way, meet a human whim. If you own a working or hunting breed, then even more so.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs

CptJack said:


> I feel like there are basically people who object to any dog not living the life of a pet, and people who don't.
> 
> I really think that's about the extent of it. Not the putting the dogs in rescue (I'm not touching euthing because I've seen little actual evidence that greyhounds are euthanized rather than sent out to rescue), but that they are owned by a third party, live in kennels, and aren't pets.
> 
> That horrifies some people and I feel like if the average agility dog was kenneled and run by a professional handler and then rehomed at the end of it's career people WOULD have fits.
> 
> I wouldn't. I LOVE my pet dogs, but I've also lived with dogs who are kenneled when not 'working' (hunting - ours were mostly beagles with some stints in the big coonhounds), and who absolutely did not live a pet life. Some retired to pet status with us when they were too old to hunt. Most didn't. They got rehomed. The ones with us never lived indoors, even when 'retired' but started getting walks on a leash and some time hanging out on the porch to sleep away their days in a patch of sunshine.
> 
> I have ... zero issue with that.
> 
> Other people would have major issues with it.
> 
> The way my dad treated his 'pet' GSDs and, before that, working k9s, that lived indoors and slept in the house, on the other hand.... But that's a whole different topic.
> 
> So, basically what I'm saying here is that for me to 'oppose' greyhound racing instead of having it just be a non-thing for me that I neither support nor oppose (and basically just don't care about, to tell the truth) I want to see evidence of active mistreatment. That means real evidence of actual neglect or abuse. Not having a limited life made up of living in a kennel and 'working' (running). Filthy conditions, lack of vet care, over exercise or total lack thereof.
> 
> I'm not seeing that, so I'm living in the camp of 'eh, whatever'.
> 
> Dogs exist to serve human whims. EVERY LAST ONE of them, and if you have a breed? Well, you have a breed developed to, in some way, meet a human whim. If you own a working or hunting breed, then even more so.


Same here, I dont bet on races (there is only one track left in texas I believe), but I will admit to loving watching a greyhound run.


----------



## RonE

Willowy said:


> LOL, if not for whining, the internet would have dissolved a long time ago .
> 
> Even a whiny rant may motivate someone to donate to rescue or stop supporting something in some way. Even a lurker. Even someone who argues at first but considers the issue and changes their mind later. I don't think angry ranting is useless. Sometimes it changes things.


But I haven't seen any proposed action from the OP. Stop going to the track? I'm guessing a very tiny number of members here have ever been to a dog track. Adopt a greyhound? Lots of people, at least in my area, have done just that, but only if it's a breed that suits them - not because it's a righteous cause. Be informed? Great, but don't get indignant when people ask qualifying questions or ask for verifiable sources. And, once informed, what are you going to do with that information?


----------



## FallDeere

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Same here, I dont bet on races (there is only one track left in texas I believe), but I will admit to loving watching a greyhound run.


I too enjoy seeing them run. Nothing better than watching a breed preform the task it was bred for. 

Random but somewhat related: one of my dad's relatives used to breed racing greyhounds in Texas. I have no more information on it than that, though. I don't know how they were treated or anything. Just that they breed shih tzus now lol.


----------



## Willowy

FallDeere said:


> I too enjoy seeing them run. Nothing better than watching a breed preform the task it was bred for.



While I enjoy seeing a dog run for the joy of it, I have to disagree with this particular statement. I would NOT like to see a dog tormenting a bull/bear/badger, fight/kill another dog, fight/kill a human, track down runaway slaves, or ya know, probably half of what dogs were bred to do in the past, LOL. The past was mostly ugly.

I don't particularly enjoy seeing greyhounds racing. Their body language looks stressed to me and they aren't running just for the joy of it. I think I would enjoy seeing casual lurecoursing though. Sounds like fun.


----------



## CptJack

Lure coursing.









Racing.









Just running

Explain the difference in body language to me? Are you sure you're not just seeing 'excited intense dog' and assuming 'stressed'? 

Don't get me wrong, if there's something there I'm game, but HOW THE HECK can you read 'stressed body language' from a dog moving that fast and hard? What is it you are seeing and reading as stressed, exactly?


----------



## missc89

"Their body language looks stressed to me" <-- that is an opinion, which you are welcome to have and share, but it does not mean that they ARE stressed - you are projecting how you think they feel on to them and using that as back-up for your claims that the dogs are unhappy in racing.


----------



## Willowy

OK, I've only seen it on TV (there used to be a track in Sioux City but I was young and I wouldn't have supported it anyway). But when they aren't actively running they have tight mouths (what you can see behind the muzzle), panting in a way that looks like stress not heat, ears pinned back, wild eyes, and tight movements. They don't look like happy dogs eager to run to me. They don't show a lot on TV though.


----------



## sassafras

Greyhounds mostly look miserable when they're not running, lol.


----------



## CptJack

Eh. For me that just sounds aroused. Could be stressed, but you'd be hard pressed to determine from that, without more context, whether it was positive arousal/excitement or stress. Could be stress! Could also really not be. Have you SEEN a border collie waiting to take a turn at sheep or on the agility course? Because it's pretty tense, tight, twitchy, ears back and wild-eyed, you know? And I assure you that, at least, is 200% EAGERNESS.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Willowy said:


> OK, I've only seen it on TV (there used to be a track in Sioux City but I was young and I wouldn't have supported it anyway). But when they aren't actively running they have tight mouths (what you can see behind the muzzle), panting in a way that looks like stress not heat, ears pinned back, wild eyes, and tight movements. They don't look like happy dogs eager to run to me. They don't show a lot on TV though.


Sight hounds are weird. People are always telling me that my dogs are freaked out when they aren't. They are very different in posture and presentation.

Oh, and they live to run. They live for it. I have to try very hard to keep my dogs active enough to discourage wild running whenever I can. They live for motion.

However, I am talking whippets again. I have not owned a greyhound. Also, I have never been to a track so I don't "support" racing in any way, shape, or form. But it isn't as high on my radar as other dog-related welfare issues.

I have attended practice for lure coursing. It is a terrifying beauty to watch whippets run all-out. After watching it in person after walking the fields for gopher holes, I decided I would never run my own dogs. Too scary for me. I invest too much time in dog sports to get my dog dinged up racing. But just a personal choice. No judgement against any owners who decide something different. The dogs LOVE to run. They aren't forced. It's incredible. How could a dog be forced to run in pursuit of something?


----------



## sassafras

My first dog as an adult was a retired racer. Yes, she loved to run whenever she had the chance. She was just pure joy. 

But, she could look as miserable as the day is long just because of her face and eyes. Nobody can look as pathetic as a sighthound IMO.


----------



## missc89

sassafras said:


> My first dog as an adult was a retired racer. Yes, she loved to run whenever she had the chance. She was just pure joy.
> 
> But, she could look as miserable as the day is long just because of her face and eyes. Nobody can look as pathetic as a sighthound IMO.


Agree 100%. I want one and my BF is like "Why? They look like they're starving!" which, of course, they aren't, but they 'look' like they are so people just automatically assume all sighthounds must be starving


----------



## JohnnyBandit

CptJack said:


> I feel like there are basically people who object to any dog not living the life of a pet, and people who don't.


I see that often... I have a unique perspective that I own pets and have owned pure working and hunting dogs... The ONLY reason I had them was for their abilities..... That is not to say I did not care about them, their lives, their well being... I cared very much.... 

I have also had pet dogs... And some of them I have put into working situations. I had a pit bull named Tank once... OF the four pits I have owned, all lived at least part of the time in the house. I had one that would sneak up on the bed after I fell asleep... But between those four dogs, they caught a ton of hogs.... 

My Catahoulas (the two males I had) were pets... But they also worked. HARD. They worked cattle, they ran hogs.... 

And then I have had hounds, curs, etc... That were pure working dogs... They got a run daily, but if they were not working they spent a lot of time in kennel runs...


I have no problem either way..


----------



## JohnnyBandit

Willowy said:


> I don't particularly enjoy seeing greyhounds racing. Their body language looks stressed to me and they aren't running just for the joy of it.


They are in drive... Not stressed.... And they are running for the pure joy of it... That is what they do.... And they LOVE it.... You cannot make a dog run.....


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## Willowy

Oh, I'm sure they love the running. It's the rest of their life I worry about.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

Willowy said:


> Oh, I'm sure they love the running. It's the rest of their life I worry about.


But you said before that they looked stressed when they were running.... Now you are saying the opposite...


----------



## Willowy

Yeah yeah, pick on one detail, I know you like that. Of course nobody can tell anything about a dog's mental state while he/she is running. Before and after the race are part of "racing", yes? To me, they look stressed when not actually running.


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## FallDeere

Arguments from people who can't keep their story straight aren't extremely convincing, I have to say.

I think all of us are agreed that if true abuse is happening, that's bad. But no one has provided convincing and consistent evidence that abuse is the norm of the industry. Yes, I'm certain there is abuse by certain people. That's life and yes we should try to stop that. But trying to stop an entire industry because of a few bad apples isn't the way to go. If it _is _the entire industry that's bad, fine, but give me proof. Not hearsay and a few videos of isolated kennels that may not represent the entirety of racing.

If you think the dogs are stressed, I'd like to see an unbiased dog behavior expert review footage of Greyhounds before, during, and after a race and see what they think about the dog's body language. That would be a million times more convincing than you saying "Their body language looks stressed to me and they aren't running just for the joy of it."

If you think the tracks are treating dogs badly, go there. Get evidence. But even if the track you go to is bad, that doesn't mean EVERY track is bad.


----------



## Willowy

So even evidence wouldn't be evidence?  

I think the fact that for years and year and years, the norm was to kill every dog that wasn't amusing/useful anymore says that the owners/handlers/whoever don't care jack about the dogs. They only started releasing dogs to rescues because public opinion was turning against them, and they thought they might make more money if they don't disgust people too badly. Money money money. . .

I didn't say I object to dog racing based on my opinion that the dogs look stressed. That's just why I don't enjoy watching it on TV.

And, well, no, they aren't running "for the joy of it" even if they enjoy the actual running. That could only be spontaneous action. They're running because someone put them in a box and then let them out.


----------



## FallDeere

Evidence would be evidence of individual incidents. Not the industry as a whole.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

Willowy said:


> Yeah yeah, pick on one detail, I know you like that. Of course nobody can tell anything about a dog's mental state while he/she is running. Before and after the race are part of "racing", yes? To me, they look stressed when not actually running.


No.... I am just noting that you said one thing and now you have spun 180 degrees....


----------



## JohnnyBandit

To clear things up.....

The ONLY way a dog owner makes money is to win..... There is NO paycheck for showing up with your dogs.... You have to win.... And just like in horse racing, there are dog races that the purse will not pay the feed bill and build to races that have LARGE payouts... The ONLY way for the dog to get into races that really pay is to perform....

There is NO other way around it... No other way to get paid... And with the top winning dogs come stud fees, high priced puppy sales etc.....

But the dog has to win.... And win against other dogs that have performed....

Mistreated, poorly cared for dogs CANNOT do this...


A well cared for, well fed, well conditioned, and happy dog..... Can.... 

Horses do not get to the Kentucky Derby by taking short cuts or shoddy care...

And dogs do not get into the high stakes races that way either...


----------



## AaronC

I'm just going to throw my 2c worth in here. 

Greyhound racing is definately bad news for greyhounds. Here in NZ, we have probably one of the better dog racing industries but its still appalling.
At best a quarter of all greyhounds bred and imported are being rehomed (Hence regarding NZ as one of the better ones)
There are races 6 out of 7 days and at last count around 46 greyhounds euthanased every year by vets at the tracks, due to injuries.
Those are the two big endemic issues, that cannot be fixed if there is to be a gambling industry reliant on a constant supply of disposable dogs.

Then theres doping, live baiting, extremely long travel distances- often with the dogs injured from the days racing, the crappy kennels they live in, the mistreatement that IS racing training - that inevitibly leads to them killing the neighbours cat or being euthanased because they might, the borderline corrupt tax breaks and preferrential treatement they receive in this area from govt (that harks back to very dated legislation) and theres more - the main adoption agency here, one of the trustees was outed for killing young dogs and setting their bodies on fire, another breeds and races greyhounds despite this charity rehoming a very small percentage. The stewards who are supposed to enforce the rules have proven to be dodgy, even when someone is caught breaking the rules - the punishments are inadequate - there is literally no end of reasons why this industry should be completely banned. And this I repeat, is from a country where greyhound racing is probably one of the better global examples. 

Shut it down I say.

Will the breed die out?
No they are too awesome. That argument suggests participants are driven purely by financial interests. Fact is thats 100% true, but there is more than enough reasons to keep this breed going.

Cheers
Aaron Cross


----------



## JohnnyBandit

I still like watching the puppies run....


And this thread has been fun.....

Makes me want to go out and invest in some racing dogs...


----------



## AaronC

Its not news that some people place higher values on their own entertainment and gambling than they do on animal welfare.
The live baiting scandal in Australia saw little change in betting turnover, which is why it needs legislated against from the top, rather than waiting for people to develop a sense of compassion for the dogs who pay the price for this barbaric entertainment in blood and broken bones.


----------



## Willowy

JohnnyBandit said:


> I still like watching the puppies run....
> 
> 
> And this thread has been fun.....
> 
> Makes me want to go out and invest in some racing dogs...


Considering you were supporting racing even back when they were killing every dog, I'm not surprised at all. 



> Its not news that some people place higher values on their own entertainment and gambling than they do on animal welfare.
> The live baiting scandal in Australia saw little change in betting turnover, which is why it needs legislated against from the top, rather than waiting for people to develop a sense of compassion for the dogs who pay the price for this barbaric entertainment in blood and broken bones.


Quoting this cuz I like the way it's worded and you might edit it .


----------



## JohnnyBandit

AaronC said:


> Its not news that some people place higher values on their own entertainment and gambling than they do on animal welfare.
> The live baiting scandal in Australia saw little change in betting turnover, which is why it needs legislated against from the top, rather than waiting for people to develop a sense of compassion for the dogs who pay the price for this barbaric entertainment in blood and broken bones.


Opinions vary.....

But I have been on this forum a long time.... And in that time I have come to know... A fair number of members here in other venues etc.... That being said, though we do not always agree.... I seriously doubt any of them would say I do not care about the welfare of animals or that I would put my personal entertainment before the overall well being of an animal or a group of animals.....

Having grown up in, lived in, personally knowing racers, been going to tracks for at least the last 30 years, etc...... In the dog racing mecca of the United States...... I do not share your opinion...... 

I know nothing of the dog racing industry in NZ...... Maybe it is riddled with corruption, abuse, etc...


But that is not the case in Florida...... 

I have no ethical, moral or other issues with Dog Racing here... No more so than I do with horse racing... Which I also enjoy. 

So needless to say, I do not share your opinion of the sport....


----------



## JohnnyBandit

Willowy said:


> Considering you were supporting racing even back when they were killing every dog, I'm not surprised at all.
> 
> 
> Quoting this cuz I like the way it's worded and you might edit it .


LOL You don't know what they were doing with dogs..... Only what you have read from sites that have told you exactly what they want you to believe.


----------



## Willowy

Well, hmm, what were they doing with the dogs before Greyhound adoptions were a thing? 

From the American Greyhound Council: "Since the early 1990s, more than 280,000 retired racers have been placed in loving homes across America. http://www.agcouncil.com/frequently-asked-questions-about-greyhound-pets/" 

Which certainly makes it sound like none were placed before the early 1990s or they would have bragged that up.


----------



## AaronC

Florida has a terrible reputation internationally for dog racing. For the same things inherent in dog racing everywhere; culling and injuries.

If you care for an animal you don't deliberately put it in harms way for money and/or entertainment. 

If you're referring to stuff put out by Grey2k they usually quote figures released by the government or industry. Most stuff they share in this vein is direct links to articles posted by govt and industry. 
Since you were involved for 30 something years, you would clearly know the fates of slow dogs.

Same for horses. No money in owning slow and old racing stock.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

AaronC said:


> Florida has a terrible reputation internationally for dog racing. For the same things inherent in dog racing everywhere; culling and injuries.
> 
> If you care for an animal you don't deliberately put it in harms way for money and/or entertainment.
> 
> If you're referring to stuff put out by Grey2k they usually quote figures released by the government or industry. Most stuff they share in this vein is direct links to articles posted by govt and industry.
> Since you were involved for 30 something years, you would clearly know the fates of slow dogs.
> 
> Same for horses. No money in owning slow and old racing stock.


And you know what about dog racing other than what you have heard? I have been around it 40 plus years.....


----------



## JohnnyBandit

Willowy said:


> Well, hmm, what were they doing with the dogs before Greyhound adoptions were a thing?
> 
> From the American Greyhound Council: "Since the early 1990s, more than 280,000 retired racers have been placed in loving homes across America. http://www.agcouncil.com/frequently-asked-questions-about-greyhound-pets/"
> 
> Which certainly makes it sound like none were placed before the early 1990s or they would have bragged that up.


Why don't you tell us? 

Obviously you were around dog racing in Florida in the 1970's and 80's......


----------



## Willowy

I can find old books saying that's what they did. . .I read every dog book in the library when I was a kid/teenager. Even the ones about racing, hunting, every. single. one. They didn't exactly try to hide that fact.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

Willowy said:


> I can find old books saying that's what they did. . .I read every dog book in the library when I was a kid/teenager. Even the ones about racing, hunting, every. single. one. They didn't exactly try to hide that fact.


Like I said..... Any actual experience or exposure to dog racing?


----------



## Willowy

Why would I have any experience with something I hate? I would not get involved in gambling even if it didn't involve animals.

When there was a racetrack in Sioux City, nobody in the area had an adopted Greyhound and they were not taken to the Humane Society there. There was no local rescue group. I think I can put 2 and 2 together.

So I'm asking you, with your apparently extensive experience, what DID happen to the dogs?


----------



## JohnnyBandit

AaronC said:


> If you're referring to stuff put out by Grey2k they usually quote figures released by the government or industry. Most stuff they share in this vein is direct links to articles posted by govt and industry.
> Since you were involved for 30 something years, you would clearly know the fates of slow dogs.
> 
> .


No.... I am only referring to personal first hand experience...... 

What are you referring to as to dog racing in Florida? 



> If you care for an animal you don't deliberately put it in harms way for money and/or entertainment.



Not so.... A person can care about animals (regardless of your opinion) and see them in harms way..... Working and Hunting dogs (both of which I have owned) are regularly in harms way....... The chance that the dog may be hurt or worse has nothing to do with caring about the dog.


----------



## AaronC

When the industry does injury declarations and the government speaks of propping up tracks- that even track OWNERS want shut down, then theres I guess what you'd call some information

The thing is if you've been involved for forty years then there's actually no nice way to put this: You're part of the problem.

You're fooling no-one when you say people who put their dogs lives on the line - love them.
You're fooling no-one when you say there's not a problem with culling and injuries.

Even a 5 second google starts piling up evidence in this particular state. From there you can sift through, find the official sources pretty quickly. 

Floridas just like anywhere else that has this outdated and barbaric fake sport.

Looks like the 4D meats even an issue there. 

lol I'm arguing with a racing apologist- who also appears to be forum mod.. I guess I just say goodbye because I've been here before and you can't turn a stone into a stick. I've seen what this selfish industry has done to these animals- first hand- and thanks to the modern marvel of the video camera, I've seen it around the world too. 

Greyhound racing sucks.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

Willowy said:


> Why would I have any experience with something I hate?
> 
> When there was a racetrack in Sioux City, nobody in the area had an adopted Greyhound and they were not taken to the Humane Society there. There was no local rescue group. I think I can put 2 and 2 together.
> 
> So I'm asking you, with your appraently extensive experience, what DID happen to the dogs?


Its okay...... I actually get worried when I agree with you....


And the tracks around here.... Derby Lane, (the now closed down Tampa Track), Sarasota Kennel Club, etc.... Were "adopting" out dogs as far back as I can remember... Except they did not use the term "adoption" and they did not charge a fee.....

I got into a big snit with my Father when I was a kid because I had in my head that I wanted a free greyhound..... (circa mid 1970's)


----------



## AaronC

JohnnyBandit said:


> No.... I am only referring to personal first hand experience......


your personal experience does not reflect the experiences of every animal used and abused for racing. Your "good times" do not delete nor reduce the "Bad times" that greyhounds suffer.






JohnnyBandit said:


> A person can care about animals (regardless of your opinion) and see them in harms way..... Working and Hunting dogs (both of which I have owned) are regularly in harms way....... The chance that the dog may be hurt or worse has nothing to do with caring about the dog.


A working dogs greatest threat is an impatient owner. They are in no way in as much danger as a racing greyhound is
A hunting dog is indeed in danger - what you are saying is that yea you love dogs, but yea, they are disposable. Which reflects your appreciation of greyhound racing well.


----------



## Willowy

So, all of them, huh? Quite a market back then for retired Greyhounds I suppose . I really doubt very many were given away and I can imagine a lot of the ones that did get out did not end up in a nice home.

I guess all those books about racing (glorifying racing!) that talked so matter-of-factly about "culling" were just, I don't know, brainwashed by them animal rightsists I guess .

And, yeah, if I found out I was doing something the same as you, I'd have to seriously re-examine it to make sure I'm not turning into one of those people . Great for arguing with though.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

AaronC said:


> When the industry does injury declarations and the government speaks of propping up tracks- that even track OWNERS want shut down, then theres I guess what you'd call some information
> 
> The thing is if you've been involved for forty years then there's actually no nice way to put this: You're part of the problem.
> 
> You're fooling no-one when you say people who put their dogs lives on the line - love them.
> You're fooling no-one when you say there's not a problem with culling and injuries.
> 
> Even a 5 second google starts piling up evidence in this particular state. From there you can sift through, find the official sources pretty quickly.
> 
> Floridas just like anywhere else that has this outdated and barbaric fake sport.
> 
> Looks like the 4D meats even an issue there.
> 
> lol I'm arguing with a racing apologist- who also appears to be forum mod.. I guess I just say goodbye because I've been here before and you can't turn a stone into a stick. I've seen what this selfish industry has done to these animals- first hand- and thanks to the modern marvel of the video camera, I've seen it around the world too.
> 
> Greyhound racing sucks.


LOL where to start.....

First of all.... Dog Racing is FUN...... A good time... 

Secondly....


> Looks like the 4D meats even an issue there.


The only 4D meat used for dog food in the US comes in the form of commercially produced mass market dog kibble... The grocery store shelves are full of it.... Racers are buying high end food and nearly all feed raw....



> lol I'm arguing with a racing apologist- who also appears to be forum mod..


I am NOT a moderator in this forum.... Never have been... Never will be.... And I have nothing to apologize for.....



> Floridas just like anywhere else that has this outdated and barbaric fake sport.


Fake??? How so.... Did the dog that ran the fastest not win? LMAO



> I've seen what this selfish industry has done to these animals- first hand- and thanks to the modern marvel of the video camera, I've seen it around the world too.


LOL ummm yea... Okay.....



> The thing is if you've been involved for forty years then there's actually no nice way to put this: You're part of the problem.


If this is a problem.... Gladly so....




> Even a 5 second google starts piling up evidence in this particular state. From there you can sift through, find the official sources pretty quickly.


LOL yea.... From Animal Rights sites that push their agenda...



> You're fooling no-one when you say people who put their dogs lives on the line - love them.


More LOL..... Wrong.....



> Greyhound racing sucks


No.... It is fun!!! and a good time.....


----------



## JohnnyBandit

Willowy said:


> So, all of them, huh? Quite a market back then for retired Greyhounds I suppose .


Never said all of them...... Don't go putting words in my mouth....


And the greyhound rescue down here does not want the industry to go away.... I know a couple of people and know of more in the greyhound "rescue" BUSINESS that would be out of a full time job if there was no racing.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

AaronC said:


> A working dogs greatest threat is an impatient owner. They are in no way in as much danger as a racing greyhound is


Obviously.... You have never owned actual working dogs...



> A hunting dog is indeed in danger - what you are saying is that yea you love dogs, but yea, they are disposable. Which reflects your appreciation of greyhound racing well.


A good hunting dog is irreplaceable......


----------



## Willowy

Yes. . .a "good" hunting/racing/working dog will be OK, until he's not good at it any more. It's the ones that aren't good at it who suffer. And the good ones when they aren't good anymore.

And so if not all were given out the back. . .what happened to them?

And, yes, I'm sort of conflicted about Greyhound rescues because, if they hadn't bailed out the racing people, public opinion probably would have put them out of business by now.


----------



## Estes Kefauver

*WOW.*

I've read the first and this last page of this thread. I'm now sorry for that. It amazes me that some of you actually seem to support this sport. I've been involved in rescue since 1996; not greyhound, but still. I've gotten somewhat into horse-racing, and I've seen far too much of greyhound racing. Let me tell you that they are nowhere alike in any way in regards to the care, handling and love of the animals. Greyhounds that are raced are considered and treated like _"equipment"_ of the sport, like the tires used in auto racing. I've never seen a race greyhound receive the same care or love as a racehorse. Whether you choose to agree with me or not, I find it very cruel entertainment. 

I came to this thread to pass on a very cool rescue trick I learned from a group in Chicagoland, where I live. The backs of the rear legs of the race dogs get scuffed up and worn down to the skin from the crates and racing stalls. This gets to the point where the skin is coarse and the hair doesn't grow any more. A combination of two(2) simple things helps to remedy this to where the hair will grow back on the repaired skin. You combine equal globs of triple-antibiotic ointment and bag-balm in your hands. You then briskly massage it into the problem area for a good 10-minutes. The benefit is from this 10-minute massage because the dogs will most likely lick it away after you are finished. Doing this twice a day you should see results from between 2-weeks to a month, more or less depending on the severity. I've seen it work in 10-days. I use it on dogs that have what I call _"concrete elbows"_. That is when they have been left out for long days on patios and their elbows and/or back legs have calloused over. 

*If you have men who will exclude any of god's creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow man.* _ - Saint Francis of Assissi_


Estes​


----------



## RonE

Estes Kefauver said:


> *WOW.*
> 
> I've read the first and this last page of this thread. I'm now sorry for that. It amazes me that some of you actually seem to support this sport.


I guess by "some" you meant "one."

You need to be careful about reaching sweeping conclusions based on a limited sample. One vocal and outspoken member does not constitute widespread support for greyhound racing. (Sorry, JB.) Several people offered the opinion that conditions have improved. Others objected to the presentation of evidence to the contrary. Most of us have never had any interaction with dog racing at all. My own reaction, on reading the initial post in this thread, was, "Well,gee, everybody already knows that dog racing is not particularly good for the dogs. You're preaching to the choir."

I guess you could say that, "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem." In that sense, I must take personal responsibility for nearly all of the world's problems.


----------



## JohnnyBandit

RonE said:


> I guess by "some" you meant "one."
> 
> You need to be careful about reaching sweeping conclusions based on a limited sample. One vocal and outspoken member does not constitute widespread support for greyhound racing. (Sorry, JB.) Several people offered the opinion that conditions have improved. Others objected to the presentation of evidence to the contrary. Most of us have never had any interaction with dog racing at all. My own reaction, on reading the initial post in this thread, was, "Well,gee, everybody already knows that dog racing is not particularly good for the dogs. You're preaching to the choir."
> 
> I guess you could say that, "If you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem." In that sense, I must take personal responsibility for nearly all of the world's problems.


No Worries Ron!!!!

I knew that post was directed at me....

My middle name is "Some" so it is all good....


----------



## OwnedbyACDs

Willowy said:


> Yes. . .a "good" hunting/racing/working dog will be OK, until he's not good at it any more. It's the ones that aren't good at it who suffer. And the good ones when they aren't good anymore.


Okay ... so I own a working dog, so you are saying that if he ever becomes "worthless" that I would just "cull"? What about those who have other types of working dogs like hunting dogs, dogs who do IPO and bite work? They dont "cull" them, they rehome them. When you do a sport ANY sport there are going to be wash outs, there is no way around that. 



> I think the fact that for years and year and years, the norm was to kill every dog that wasn't amusing/useful anymore says that the owners/handlers/whoever don't care jack about the dogs. They only started releasing dogs to rescues because public opinion was turning against them, and they thought they might make more money if they don't disgust people too badly. Money money money. . .
> 
> I didn't say I object to dog racing based on my opinion that the dogs look stressed. That's just why I don't enjoy watching it on TV.
> 
> And, well, no, they aren't running "for the joy of it" even if they enjoy the actual running. That could only be spontaneous action. They're running because someone put them in a box and then let them out.


No, no, if they didnt enjoy it, they wouldnt run when the box opened, like a horse that refuses to come out of the starting gate.



Willowy said:


> I can find old books saying that's what they did. . .I read every dog book in the library when I was a kid/teenager. Even the ones about racing, hunting, every. single. one. They didn't exactly try to hide that fact.


Because books make you an expert!!!



AaronC said:


> When the industry does injury declarations and the government speaks of propping up tracks- that even track OWNERS want shut down, then theres I guess what you'd call some information
> 
> The thing is if you've been involved for forty years then there's actually no nice way to put this: You're part of the problem.
> 
> You're fooling no-one when you say people who put their dogs lives on the line - love them.
> You're fooling no-one when you say there's not a problem with culling and injuries.
> 
> Even a 5 second google starts piling up evidence in this particular state. From there you can sift through, find the official sources pretty quickly.
> 
> Floridas just like anywhere else that has this outdated and barbaric fake sport.
> 
> Looks like the 4D meats even an issue there.
> 
> lol I'm arguing with a racing apologist- who also appears to be forum mod.. I guess I just say goodbye because I've been here before and you can't turn a stone into a stick. I've seen what this selfish industry has done to these animals- first hand- and thanks to the modern marvel of the video camera, I've seen it around the world too.
> 
> Greyhound racing sucks.


Okay, guess I am "part of the problem" then.


----------



## sassafras

To be fair, I think it's as disingenuous to say that the racing industry is and has been all sunshine and rainbows for all greyhounds or that large numbers of dogs are not and have never been euthanized at the end of their careers as it is to say that the racing industry is and always has been absolutely horrific for ALL greyhounds. 

When I got my retired racer in the early 90s, it was just starting to become an option and we were definitely a novelty. Now you see them everywhere. Before that, I don't see how anyone can deny that large numbers of dogs were euthanized. Or that some owners/trainers didn't and don't care for their dogs properly.

To me the point is, is the industry trying to change and achieving substantive change? According to the numbers in the links, it is. It takes time to change attitudes and practices in any industry and although for some reason in today's society people think that if change doesn't leap immediately from A to Z it's not taking place at all, it looks to me like the racing industry is moving through B, C, D, etc. 

Anything we do with dogs is sometimes bad for some dogs, even simply being pets (eg hoarders, neglectful owners, abusers). We can't ban everything that isn't always good for every dog, or no one will have any dogs at all (which is the goal of some AR groups I know). Racing has the additional layer that no industry involving money is EVER going to be 100% ethically and morally perfect or even uniformly meet a minimum standard of ethics. Human beings are human beings and some are sociopaths or lack empathy for non-human species or whatever. 

But ask yourself how will there actually be progress for dogs? Roaming the internet calling for a ban that causes supporters to dig in their heels, or getting your boots on the ground and working to improve conditions?




(And for the record, yes it is absolutely common practice for hunters up here to euthanize old or broken hunting dogs and get a shiny new one. I ended up with a delightful old Chesapeake that way.)


----------



## RonE

sassafras said:


> (And for the record, yes it is absolutely common practice for hunters up here to euthanize old or broken hunting dogs and get a shiny new one. I ended up with a delightful old Chesapeake that way.)


That's how I got a 9-year old Irish setter who was gun shy - possibly because she had a bullet lodged in her back, too close to her spine to remove safely.

People routinely trade in their spouses for a younger version, so it shouldn't come as a huge shock that they do that with their dogs.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs

Willowy said:


> Yes. . .a "good" hunting/racing/working dog will be OK, until he's not good at it any more. It's the ones that aren't good at it who suffer. And the good ones when they aren't good anymore.
> 
> And so if not all were given out the back. . .what happened to them?
> 
> And, yes, I'm sort of conflicted about Greyhound rescues because, if they hadn't bailed out the racing people, public opinion probably would have put them out of business by now.





Willowy said:


> So even evidence wouldn't be evidence?
> 
> I think the fact that for years and year and years, the norm was to kill every dog that wasn't amusing/useful anymore says that the owners/handlers/whoever don't care jack about the dogs. They only started releasing dogs to rescues because public opinion was turning against them, and they thought they might make more money if they don't disgust people too badly. Money money money. . .
> 
> I didn't say I object to dog racing based on my opinion that the dogs look stressed. That's just why I don't enjoy watching it on TV.
> 
> And, well, no, they aren't running "for the joy of it" even if they enjoy the actual running. That could only be spontaneous action. They're running because someone put them in a box and then let them out.





Willowy said:


> I can find old books saying that's what they did. . .I read every dog book in the library when I was a kid/teenager. Even the ones about racing, hunting, every. single. one. They didn't exactly try to hide that fact.





sassafras said:


> To be fair, I think it's as disingenuous to say that the racing industry is and has been all sunshine and rainbows for all greyhounds or that large numbers of dogs are not and have never been euthanized at the end of their careers as it is to say that the racing industry is and always has been absolutely horrific for ALL greyhounds.
> 
> When I got my retired racer in the early 90s, it was just starting to become an option and we were definitely a novelty. Now you see them everywhere. Before that, I don't see how anyone can deny that large numbers of dogs were euthanized. Or that some owners/trainers didn't and don't care for their dogs properly.
> 
> To me the point is, is the industry trying to change and achieving substantive change? According to the numbers in the links, it is. It takes time to change attitudes and practices in any industry and although for some reason in today's society people think that if change doesn't leap immediately from A to Z it's not taking place at all, it looks to me like the racing industry is moving through B, C, D, etc.
> 
> Anything we do with dogs is sometimes bad for some dogs, even simply being pets (eg hoarders, neglectful owners, abusers). We can't ban everything that isn't always good for every dog, or no one will have any dogs at all (which is the goal of some AR groups I know). Racing has the additional layer that no industry involving money is EVER going to be 100% ethically and morally perfect or even uniformly meet a minimum standard of ethics. Human beings are human beings and some are sociopaths or lack empathy for non-human species or whatever.
> 
> But ask yourself how will there actually be progress for dogs? Roaming the internet calling for a ban that causes supporters to dig in their heels, or getting your boots on the ground and working to improve conditions?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (And for the record, yes it is absolutely common practice for hunters up here to euthanize old or broken hunting dogs and get a shiny new one. I ended up with a delightful old Chesapeake that way.)


If they are going to do it, I would most prefer they do humane euthanasia, as opposed to a bullet. 

I know that the racing industry (both dog and horse) is not all peaches and creme, but for someone to sit there and say "Well I heard from someone or I saw a video on you tube that some people in said industry are bad, so EVERYONE in said industry must be bad!" In all honesty makes me crazy.

There ARE animals who love what they do, and if they dont, they dont last very long in the industry.


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## missc89

RonE said:


> People routinely trade in their spouses for a younger version, so it shouldn't come as a huge shock that they do that with their dogs.


LOL Ron... (tooshort)


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## OwnedbyACDs

If anyone knew anything, they would know that the cruelest thing you can do to most working type (and that includes herding dogs as well) is NOT let them work.

In fact, its how I get obedience out of Lincoln ... "you dont get to work unless you obey me and listen" haha


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## Kyllobernese

trainingjunkie said:


> For balance: http://www.greyhoundinfo.org/?page_id=68


Very good article.


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## JohnnyBandit

A few things.....

It is illegal to dope dogs..... It will not only get you kicked out of the racing associations it will get you charged with a criminal offense.....

It is illegal to use live animals as bait. Doing so is a felony......

The talk about poor conditions, poor food, starving the dogs, etc... Would you house a professional athlete in filth and feed them crap? That is what a racing dog is.... And the ONLY way you make money......The better the dog is, the more profitable the dog is....


Nothing I have said should suggest that I do not believe there are ever abuses that happens.... Abuse happens... But not giving your dog excellent care is not a way to make money. Caring for a bunch of dogs gets expensive quick if you are not getting any cash coming in...

As far as hunters and working dog folks euthanizing old dogs.... Some do and some don't..... And frankly I do not know what the right answer is.... When a dog is old enough that his body will not do the job any longer..... His heart and mind thinks he is as good as he ever was.... Go load up your dogs to hunt..... It will break your heart to look at your old dogs, wanting to go SO BAD, but you are not taking them.... And as they realize they are not loading up with the other dogs... The whines and moans will hurt your soul.... 

Some dogs deal with retirement okay... Many don't..... And some that seem to have years of life left, go down hill real quick once they are retired....... Take a high drive dog that has hunted his entire life and all of a sudden not hunt him any more... It is not easy on the dog... Like telling a career firefighter.... A pro athlete.... He is done.... He can no longer be who he has always been...Can no longer do what he has lived to do....

Old working and hunting dogs become sullen, withdrawn and show clear signs of a depressive state...


Is Euthanasia kinder? I struggled with that for years.... Still do not know the answer....


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## Greater Swiss

JohnnyBandit said:


> Is Euthanasia kinder? I struggled with that for years.... Still do not know the answer....


Wow, Johnny.....I don't know either way, but I do really appreciate the insight of that post. 

As for the fate of racing dogs, working dogs and such....my closest contact with a working dog is sport dogs, doing IPO/Schutzhund. I had the privilege of "gearing up" and wearing the sleeve in a blind, as a helper would (I think the club was hazing me lol).....and I can say without doubt, I have rarely seen any dog that was as happy as when that dog was barking his heart out waiting for the release to bite. I was looking right into his face, and he was so close I could feel the heat of his breath as he barked. Power, and joy was all I could see, and it was beautiful. I gotta say, I think taking that joy away (that I'm guessing all working dogs get), for many of them would be as bad as death.....though case by case, like you mentioned JB, some adjust ok, others do not. 

Any who think that all dog sports should be banned.....well....to put it politely....I think you're wrong. Based on my admittedly slim experience, and the belief that the dogs are cared for in legitimate work and sport (at very least to protect the investment, which is a no brainer), I don't see how I could be convinced otherwise. Campaign and yell and scream for good treatment, I'm behind that, just don't even try to take the work from those dogs, whether it is running, hunting, obedience, agility, IPO, herding or any other!


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## JohnnyBandit

Greater Swiss said:


> Wow, Johnny.....I don't know either way, but I do really appreciate the insight of that post.
> 
> As for the fate of racing dogs, working dogs and such....my closest contact with a working dog is sport dogs, doing IPO/Schutzhund. I had the privilege of "gearing up" and wearing the sleeve in a blind, as a helper would (I think the club was hazing me lol).....and I can say without doubt, I have rarely seen any dog that was as happy as when that dog was barking his heart out waiting for the release to bite. I was looking right into his face, and he was so close I could feel the heat of his breath as he barked. Power, and joy was all I could see, and it was beautiful. I gotta say, I think taking that joy away (that I'm guessing all working dogs get), for many of them would be as bad as death.....though case by case, like you mentioned JB, some adjust ok, others do not.
> 
> Any who think that all dog sports should be banned.....well....to put it politely....I think you're wrong. Based on my admittedly slim experience, and the belief that the dogs are cared for in legitimate work and sport (at very least to protect the investment, which is a no brainer), I don't see how I could be convinced otherwise. Campaign and yell and scream for good treatment, I'm behind that, just don't even try to take the work from those dogs, whether it is running, hunting, obedience, agility, IPO, herding or any other!



My family and myself (when I had actual full time working and hunting dogs) always retired our old dogs. And we have had some dogs work WELL into very old age... I had a Catahoula that I took off of hog hunting at 13 but kept him working cows until 15. I have had a couple of hounds still hunt some (I might pick the situation. Like I know it would be a short in cool weather) But there comes a time.... When the dog has lost enough speed, endurance strength, etc to the point that there is SIGNIFICANT danger of them being hurt or killed.. The last thing I ever wanted to do was watch a great dog I had loved, cared for and hunted with for many years be killed in front of you. Or in the case of hounds which are usually out of sight, hear it.....

But I do know the dogs do know what is up.... They see certain gear, you dressed a certain way, certain equipment, you doing certain things, etc... That it is time to go..... All the dogs get worked up.... It is HARD on the old ones to stay behind.... 

Its like telling your grandpaw that you always hunted with, he has to stay home because he can not longer keep up.... 
A working dog heart and soul does not go away when their body is old.... Drive does not go away just because the body is not what it used to be....

So in the end... You have three choices....

1) retire the dog and watch him be old and miserable in most cases....

2) Euthanize..... 

3) Just keep hunting them or working them until something happens.... I have known folks that have done this. In a way it makes sense.... If the dog finds its end in the woods or the field, etc.... It went out doing what it loved.


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## OwnedbyACDs

JohnnyBandit said:


> A few things.....
> 
> It is illegal to dope dogs..... It will not only get you kicked out of the racing associations it will get you charged with a criminal offense.....
> 
> It is illegal to use live animals as bait. Doing so is a felony......
> 
> The talk about poor conditions, poor food, starving the dogs, etc... Would you house a professional athlete in filth and feed them crap? That is what a racing dog is.... And the ONLY way you make money......The better the dog is, the more profitable the dog is....
> 
> 
> Nothing I have said should suggest that I do not believe there are ever abuses that happens.... Abuse happens... But not giving your dog excellent care is not a way to make money. Caring for a bunch of dogs gets expensive quick if you are not getting any cash coming in...
> 
> As far as hunters and working dog folks euthanizing old dogs.... Some do and some don't..... And frankly I do not know what the right answer is.... When a dog is old enough that his body will not do the job any longer..... His heart and mind thinks he is as good as he ever was.... Go load up your dogs to hunt..... It will break your heart to look at your old dogs, wanting to go SO BAD, but you are not taking them.... And as they realize they are not loading up with the other dogs... The whines and moans will hurt your soul....
> 
> Some dogs deal with retirement okay... Many don't..... And some that seem to have years of life left, go down hill real quick once they are retired....... Take a high drive dog that has hunted his entire life and all of a sudden not hunt him any more... It is not easy on the dog... Like telling a career firefighter.... A pro athlete.... He is done.... He can no longer be who he has always been...Can no longer do what he has lived to do....
> 
> Old working and hunting dogs become sullen, withdrawn and show clear signs of a depressive state...
> 
> 
> Is Euthanasia kinder? I struggled with that for years.... Still do not know the answer....


Oh there are those who dont adequately care for their race dogs (or horses!) ... or give them minimal care ... they are also the ones who dont do very well. the SUCCESSFUL outfits (both in horses and dogs) treat their horses (yes, even the claimers) good, like an old horsesmen once said to me "Good treatment won't necessarily make a bad horse run better, but bad treatment will most certainly make a good horse run bad." I am sure they can be applied to dogs as well.

The good ones KNOW they are good and its almost like they demand good treatment or they wont perform lmao.


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## Greater Swiss

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Oh there are those who dont adequately care for their race dogs (or horses!) ... or give them minimal care ... they are also the ones who dont do very well. the SUCCESSFUL outfits (both in horses and dogs) treat their horses (yes, even the claimers) good, like an old horsesmen once said to me "Good treatment won't necessarily make a bad horse run better, but bad treatment will most certainly make a good horse run bad." I am sure they can be applied to dogs as well.
> 
> The good ones KNOW they are good and its almost like they demand good treatment or they wont perform lmao.


That's the thing....in legitimate sports/jobs the dogs have to be treated well.....or at least have their physical well being seen to (in MOST cases....yeah, always exceptions). Honestly, I think more abuses happen to pet animals by owners who are either legitimately mean, too dumb to take care of their animals properly, or.....name your excuse. If any legitimate sport, as a whole is to be banned due to mistreatment then the people who call for that would have to call for more rules or even banning pet ownership, since there is such a high risk of abuse there too......Granted there are people that extreme....but not all of those that want to ban sports are. Because there is money there is the talk of exploitation.......like the animals would know the difference......some animals are lucky enough to do things they love regularly, and humans get money, enjoyment, prestige, or even a cuddly lap dog in exchange.....sounds symbiotic to me, barring abuses that can happen no matter what the context.


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## OwnedbyACDs

Greater Swiss said:


> That's the thing....in legitimate sports/jobs the dogs have to be treated well.....or at least have their physical well being seen to (in MOST cases....yeah, always exceptions). Honestly, I think more abuses happen to pet animals by owners who are either legitimately mean, too dumb to take care of their animals properly, or.....name your excuse. If any legitimate sport, as a whole is to be banned due to mistreatment then the people who call for that would have to call for more rules or even banning pet ownership, since there is such a high risk of abuse there too......Granted there are people that extreme....but not all of those that want to ban sports are. Because there is money there is the talk of exploitation.......like the animals would know the difference......some animals are lucky enough to do things they love regularly, and humans get money, enjoyment, prestige, or even a cuddly lap dog in exchange.....sounds symbiotic to me, barring abuses that can happen no matter what the context.


Very true, forcing a dog to do something they hate for your (general your) sake as a human is IMO as cruel as people claim racing is, and there are folks who do it, winning is everything to them.


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