# Live food



## Killerdrgn (Apr 11, 2006)

Has anyone allowed your dog(s) to eat live food? Like a mouse or rabbit or something? Like allow it to chase the food pounce and kill it and eat it like in the nature shows?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I certainly haven't and would never recommend it. Predatory aggression can be born from this activity and who's to tell a dog the difference between a rabbit or a cat, or even worse a small baby. I would say that live foods should be reserved only for real wolves, as wild dogs are more likely to be scavengers than predators.


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## Danegirl2208 (Jul 6, 2006)

my dogs are fed a raw diet, but i dont do that...i have heard of people doing this though


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## dogluver101 (Jul 6, 2006)

I personally think it is gross and mean and would never let my dogs do that. I hope you don't allow this.


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## drfong (May 24, 2006)

I wouldn't let them eat live food on purpose but they eat live bugs if they can get to them and I'm not looking. I have thought about trying them out at ground trials. It is suposed to be fun for the dogs. They get to hunt live rats but they can't get to them to eat them. They just find them underground and then bark to let you know where the rats are. It's called "working" the rats I think. Then the need to release and return out of the tunnel on comand. I would be worried about them getting sick from eating live prey.


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## Killerdrgn (Apr 11, 2006)

No i don't let Ronin do this but i was thinking of buying a hamster or mouse and letting Ronin chase it around. I felt it would be really good exercise and would help him improve his split second turning and weaving so it'll help him really kick butt at the dog park. But i was just wondering if he accidentally killed it or ate it would it be alright since it would kind of be in his "natural" diet.


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## drfong (May 24, 2006)

You have more @#**'s than I do to admit that on this forum. I don't think too many people here and the way they feel about animals would think it right to torment a rodent for the sake of teasing your pup. Not to mention it would probably be a very short lived exercise of no real value to training your dog. I'm not jumping you for it as I myself have thought about it before as my ausy terriers were breed for hunting rodents and I atleast thought it would be fun if the rat was in one of those clear balls so the dogs could not hurt it, but I always just drop it as it would be cruel to the rodent. I'm not one who has a propblem with using animals, especially rats/mice etc for research. In my education I have put many a rat or bird in a Skinner box to study, but I do believe anytime you use an animal you should have a purpose and try to reduce discomfort as much as posible. I don't think letting your dog eat it would qualify. I have no problem with feeding rats to snakes, etc as that is what the rat was breed for and needed for the snake, but the dog has many better alternatives. Also you can do many other things to better train your dog for agility.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I think this would be a cruel and unnecessary practice. I'd no sooner buy a defenseless rodent to allow my cat to torture it to death than I would for my dog. Snakes are different. They have to consume small animals to survive. You would only be teaching your dog to be aggressive toward small animals, and it could possibly fall under the official category of animal cruelty.

Why does your dog need to "kick butt" at the dog park exactly? >< It's just a dog park. The dogs run around and play, not kill each other or compete.

Why don't you find a nice dog sport? There are plenty that have been developed for the purpose of exercising a dog's mind and body. Agility, flyball, frisbee, lure coursing, hunting trials, canine freestyle, water retrieving, herding, earthdog... depending upon your dog's breed/type. I could go on. And none of these involve the torture of small animals.


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## ThxForNothing (Jun 3, 2006)

Cheetah said:


> I think this would be a cruel and unnecessary practice. I'd no sooner buy a defenseless rodent to allow my cat to torture it to death than I would for my dog. Snakes are different. They have to consume small animals to survive. You would only be teaching your dog to be aggressive toward small animals, and it could possibly fall under the official category of animal cruelty.
> 
> Why does your dog need to "kick butt" at the dog park exactly? >< It's just a dog park. The dogs run around and play, not kill each other or compete.
> 
> Why don't you find a nice dog sport? There are plenty that have been developed for the purpose of exercising a dog's mind and body. Agility, flyball, frisbee, lure coursing, hunting trials, canine freestyle, water retrieving, herding, earthdog... depending upon your dog's breed/type. I could go on. And none of these involve the torture of small animals.



Well said Cheetah...


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## dogluver101 (Jul 6, 2006)

Killerdrgn said:


> No i don't let Ronin do this but i was thinking of buying a hamster or mouse and letting Ronin chase it around. I felt it would be really good exercise and would help him improve his split second turning and weaving so it'll help him really kick butt at the dog park. But i was just wondering if he accidentally killed it or ate it would it be alright since it would kind of be in his "natural" diet.


You are going to buy a hamster or a mouse so it can be tourterd by your dog? Where are you going to keep it, in a goldfish bowl? That is sick and cruel and I can't believe you would do that.


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## Killerdrgn (Apr 11, 2006)

I do have the means to keep many mice/hamsters comfortably in my house i used to own hamsters before my dog. But i was just curious after watching one of those nature shows and it showed a young wolf pouncing and eating a mouse. Ronin is a siberian husky and i have no clue where to buy him a sled and sled harness. But the dog park consists of much larger dogs and if i bring him to a dog park meant for smaller dogs he pretty much squishes the small yappy dogs. So right now all Ronin has going for him to not just get totally owned and picked on by the larger dogs is that he can run much faster than the other dogs but theres only so far he can run before hitting a fence and he would need to turn real quick which is why i thought the mouse would really help him quick stop and goes, like how football players learn to dodge tacklers. I know in underdeveloped countries people practice their agility and weaving skills by chasing chickens. Oh and i'm not pro-animal cruelty or anything like that but i do draw the line on certain animals.


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## lkeffect (Jul 6, 2006)

Wow I cannot believe you are even thinking of doing that let alone admitting to it on this forum and I'm new on this particular forum. First off, that's just cruel to whatever hamster or rodent you are going to do that to. But secondly, what about when he gets outside finds a field mouse or rat or squirrel or who knows what and eats it and it's loaded with diseases and parasites? If your goal is to get your dog to turn on a dime, go to agility classes or something chasing a rodent is going to increase the prey drive not the ability to corner. And unless your husky is an exception to the rule a husky will be able to hold it's own with big dogs but if your goal is to turn on a dime try agility, flyball something constructive rather than counter-productive. Go to ground trials are dominated by terriers and it's not what husky's were bred for but even if that is your wish chasing a small creature in your house isn't going to help with that either. I am speaking from experience there....I breed Scottish Terriers and once had a poor mouse decide my house looked like a good place for the winter months. It drove my dogs insane and I live trapped the poor little guy and set him free because he was absolutely terrified.


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## bigdawgs (May 21, 2006)

The only thing I have to say further is that if any of you catch your dog eating anything dead (This DOES happen occassionally out here in the country), make sure you worm them, especially if they are eating a dead wild rabbit. They are notorious for carrying worms.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Killerdrgn said:


> But i was just curious after watching one of those nature shows and it showed a young wolf pouncing and eating a mouse.


That was a nature show about wolves, not domesticated dogs.



Killerdrgn said:


> But the dog park consists of much larger dogs and if i bring him to a dog park meant for smaller dogs he pretty much squishes the small yappy dogs. So right now all Ronin has going for him to not just get totally owned and picked on by the larger dogs is that he can run much faster than the other dogs


Do the other dogs beat the crap out of him or are they just rough playing? I take my corgi to the regular dog park which is quite often populated by larger dogs, and he gets along just fine. He plays with the other dogs, they chase each other around, and he is quite fast and agile, without me letting him torture hamsters to death. ><



Killerdrgn said:


> Oh and i'm not pro-animal cruelty or anything like that but i do draw the line on certain animals.


So you are pro-small-animal-cruelty? I don't get it. You can't be truely against animal cruelty if you make exceptions. The torturing to death of small animals just to soothe one's curiosity is animal cruelty, plain and simple, and I for one am against it.


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## dogluver101 (Jul 6, 2006)

If you are so wraped up in this idea buy a remote controll mouse they have them at PetSmart in the cat isle.


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

I do not but am not against live lure-coursing. Many sighthound owners do this (some allow their animals to eat their catch, some don't) both competetively and for fun. It is what the dog was bred to do. People trying to 'humanize' dogs is half the problem in the canine world today. Remember that with the exception of most toy breeds, dogs were all bred for a PURPOSE. Many times this purpose was hunting. And believe me, dog food has not been around near as long as dogs have!



Cheetah said:


> The torturing to death of small animals just to soothe one's curiosity is animal cruelty, plain and simple, and I for one am against it.


I assume you are also against the torturing death of large animals? So then it should also be safe to assume that you are vegetarian, and use no products (including MEDICINAL DRUGS), correct?

While I don't agree with purchasing a mouse for a dog's enjoyment, dogs killing wild animals is a part of life. It's nature. It is INSTINCT. And it's not grotesque or wrong.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Personally, I believe live-lure coursing is not a sport, this is a barbaric, inhumane activity in which a bunch of people cheer while dogs tear a terrified rabbit to pieces. To me, it's not a very far leap to say that live-lure coursing is not much different than underground dog fighting. In fact, the same type of character individual you find at pit bull fighting ring can be found at live-lure course events...gang members, drug dealers, and hulligans of every form. I read a newspaper story and saw a television report on this exact topic a few weeks ago, and I know in California there is a bill out to ban live-lure coursing because of the simple fact that it is inhumane. I hope more is done to clean up the sport in general. Live-lure coursing is currently banned in England, and I hope the U.S. follows in their footsteps. Yes, our dogs were bred for a purpose, and I think it's beautiful to see each dog perform its skill, but unless you are living in such conditions that you have to rely on your dogs to catch your evening meal, I think we are intelligent enough to find humane ways to perform the sport...like with a non-live lures. If Killerdrgn wanted to run in circles pulling a white rag along the ground to entice her dog, I would say that's a better solution than tossing a mouse on the ground for it to chase...I assure you, the chase would not go very far. If the dog learns the reward of killing, good luck trying to train down his prey drive. Most of us can't keep a dog in our home with a high prey drive, nor risk the liability of owning such a dog. I can't predict how the dog will react to chasing and possibly killing a live animal, nor could a behaviorist. Therefore, it's better, if not necessary, to say that this kind of activity should not be done or recommended. Period! Like I've said before, who's to tell a dog the difference between a weird moving mouse from a weird moving baby? The answer is nobody can.


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## opokki (May 30, 2006)

I had no idea there was live luring coursing.  While I understand that some dogs were breed to hunt and kill small animals and I agree that wild animals are instinctivly killed sometimes by dogs, it disgusts me that people would intentially set animals up for such killings simply for "sport".

I'm not a vegetarian or an animal activist but to me, there is a huge difference between animals being killed for a specific purpose and animals being killed for sport.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

OwnedBySix said:


> I assume you are also against the torturing death of large animals? So then it should also be safe to assume that you are vegetarian, and use no products (including MEDICINAL DRUGS), correct?
> 
> While I don't agree with purchasing a mouse for a dog's enjoyment, dogs killing wild animals is a part of life. It's nature. It is INSTINCT. And it's not grotesque or wrong.


^
^
^ This is exactly what this person is thinking about doing, which is why *I* am against it. I know animals killing other animals is a part of life, but not humans going out and buying small animals to let their pets torture to death!

And for the record, no I am not a vegetarian (I probably would be, but the way MY body is set up, I can't survive without meat, and what does this have to do with ANYTHING?) And YES, I am against the torturing to death of ALL animals BY HUMANS (I believe in the quick, painless killing of food animals, and thus, shop at small organic stores where they get their animals from local farmers who raise them properly all the way through slaughter - Let's not get into this please... it's a touchy subject). >-\/-<

So, let's get this straight before somebody else verbally attacks me. NO I am NOT against wild animals killing each other for survival. YES I AM against people buying small animals for the sole purpose of having their pet torture it until it dies.


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## ThxForNothing (Jun 3, 2006)

OwnedBySix said:


> I do not but am not against live lure-coursing. Many sighthound owners do this (some allow their animals to eat their catch, some don't) both competetively and for fun. It is what the dog was bred to do. People trying to 'humanize' dogs is half the problem in the canine world today. Remember that with the exception of most toy breeds, dogs were all bred for a PURPOSE. Many times this purpose was hunting. And believe me, dog food has not been around near as long as dogs have!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just because she is against it doesn't mean she has to be a vegetarian, or vegan. There are local butchers around in various places that do not inhumanely kill their cattle. There are also organic shops and such. It *is* possible to get meat and other animal products from a source that does not use inhumane methods of treatment from the time they are at their place to till they are slaughtered. 

But you know, none of that matters. What she eats and does not eat has absolutely nothing to do with using a live animal for a source of amusement basically. I don't see why you have to bring up personal matters like this in a thread which has nothing to do with vegetarianism or veganism. 

Hurting animals on purpose, when it is unnessicary and avoidable, is completely pointless and cruel. Why the hell would someone want to go and buy a mouse just to watch it suffer and die in the first place? That's just sick if you ask me.


EDIT: Domesticated animals killing wild ones is wrong in my mind. I know it will always happen, but I think that human beings are smart enough to figure out how to keep their domesticated pets from harming the wildlife as much as possible. It's not rocket science, yet we have failed to do this. Bleh. sad really.. lol.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

To the OP, no I don't believe purposely letting your dog chase and kill a rodent is a good idea for the reasons that many have already stated.

I don't know all of what's involved in lure-coursing as I have no sighthounds to participate in it with. However, I get the feeling that most of the posters in this thread would never enjoy going to a hunt test or field trial- which btw, is very disheartening as I believe everyone could learn quite a bit from attending one. In most field trials there is always at least one live flyer. Do I think that is barbaric? Of course not! The bird that is shot is never wasted and never just shot for "sport" while drug dealers, gang members, and hulligans stand around cheering. It is almost always reused. It has also always been my experience that the people who attend these events are wonderful individuals (mostly breeders, trainers, and handlers) who always act in a professional manner, care deeply for their dogs, and are almost always extremely friendly and helpful.

Darcy


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Well sure, but that is not the same thing as going to the pet store and purchasing a mouse for a dog to torture and kill to somehow learn how to corner...

I'm not against hunting. My dad used to hunt for us and we ate everything he brought home (rabbit, quail, deer, etc). As long as it doesn't go to waste. Anyway, aren't the dogs in hunting trials supposed to be used to either follow an animal's scent, spot and animal and point it out, or go and retrieve it for the hunter? Not chase it down and tear it to pieces (For a hunter, wouldn't this be kindof a waste anyway? Wouldn't a hunter want a dog that can keep the animal in one piece so that it can be used?)


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Personally, I believe live-lure coursing is not a sport, this is a barbaric, inhumane activity in which a bunch of people cheer while dogs tear a terrified rabbit to pieces. To me, it's not a very far leap to say that live-lure coursing is not much different than underground dog fighting. In fact, the same type of character individual you find at pit bull fighting ring can be found at live-lure course events...gang members, drug dealers, and hulligans of every form.


So then you have attended several lure-coursing events and have profiled each person present? How VERY judgemental! And *wrong*. 

By the way, the rabbits you see in that infamous clip, are JACK rabbits...the equivalent to RATS here on the east coast. They are rodents that are overpopulated and kill crops to no end. They're not the cute little bunnies you see hopping through your yard.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

OwnedBySix said:


> So then you have attended several lure-coursing events and have profiled each person present? How VERY judgemental! And *wrong*.
> 
> By the way, the rabbits you see in that infamous clip, are JACK rabbits...the equivalent to RATS here on the east coast. They are rodents that are overpopulated and kill crops to no end. They're not the cute little bunnies you see hopping through your yard.


Like I said in my previous post, I read a newspaper article and saw a television report on live-lure coursing and the kind of garbage that can be found there. Based on the evidence on those reports, yes, I do judge it as filth, and have not and would not attend an event. And if that's wrong and if that's the only basis of your debate, than I'd rather be "wrong". Because anyone who believes that gambling does not attract filth, frankly, is short sighted, and I mean no offense. 

So I guess in your mind we have the right to play God? Have a dog chase a rat only for our fancy and thrill? Oh I get it, that's what the dog was bred to do. Well the Chinese use to breed chows to eat, should we start eating chows for our enjoyment too? I'm sure there's a better argument for live-lure coursing, but I don't see it here.


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## Killerdrgn (Apr 11, 2006)

OwnedBySix said:


> By the way, the rabbits you see in that infamous clip, are JACK rabbits...the equivalent to RATS here on the east coast. They are rodents that are overpopulated and kill crops to no end. They're not the cute little bunnies you see hopping through your yard.


So you would condone this with a jack rabbit and/or a rat then i assume, i can get rats and jack rabbits just as easily as i can get mice. But i do say a simple question has really exploded into a really hot topic real fast.

It does seem odd that no one thinks of fish or other sea creatures when you talk about animal cruelty. Recent studies have shown that they do feel pain, So when you go fishing or buy fish at the market i'm pretty sure they feel you gutting them or bopping them on the head to knock them out. Or when you steam/boil a lobster alive. I have no problem with this since it does fall under the catagory of where being humane goes way too far.


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

Killerdrgn said:


> So you would condone this with a jack rabbit and/or a rat then i assume, i can get rats and jack rabbits just as easily as i can get mice. But i do say a simple question has really exploded into a really hot topic real fast.
> 
> It does seem odd that no one thinks of fish or other sea creatures when you talk about animal cruelty. Recent studies have shown that they do feel pain, So when you go fishing or buy fish at the market i'm pretty sure they feel you gutting them or bopping them on the head to knock them out. Or when you steam/boil a lobster alive. I have no problem with this since it does fall under the catagory of where being humane goes way too far.


No one "gets" the jackrabbits...they are in the wild when the dogs course them. 

But yes, I agree it is quite a double standard that is being applied...and it happens ALL the time. Hypocrisy at it's best.

ETA this link http://www.caninechronicle.com/Features/nelson_06/nelson_506.html

These people sure sound like drug dealers, gang members and hulligans.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I guess the picture can be painted with any brush.
Bred to Run or Born to Die?


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## OwnedBySix (Jun 12, 2006)

I'm going to step out of this debate as it is obvious we will never agree.

However, let it be known that my opinion on this subject is just as important as anyone else's here.

I'll sit here quietly and smile to myself knowing that there is more than what the media shows. And it ain't all about death...


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

And thank goodness we all have the right to draw our own conclusions no matter how opinionated we may be. I trust we can agree to that? If not, then I'm off to find myself a chow burger.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Discussing opposing views is normal, and many times necessary. It's also true that in order to be totally enlightened on a topic, you have to understand the other point of view. I will agree that it's our right to have an opinion, and comments that encourage an intelligent debate are welcome to our forums. However, inaccurate statements about others, whether they were meant to be insulting or not, must be and can be avoided. We're all here because we love dogs, and we should remember this when we respond to others. Therefore, please have the courtesy to read all the posts before making a comment, and try not to assume without asking questions first. Remember, we are trying to have discussions with words alone, and words can sometimes be interpreted differently than how you mean them. Much like with our dogs, you can bring out the best in the words you choose if you stay calm and assertive. Intelligent debate always has it's place, but arguing will not be allowed on our forum. Thank you.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

Live lure coursing and hunting aside, I still don't agree with going and buying a small animal and giving it to your dog. I hardly think it's the same thing. I mean, you would be DELIBERATELY putting out money to torture and kill another animal. I find that to be wrong. I still say a nice dog sport would be better for the dog... if you want to teach the dog to corner, take up agility. >u.u<


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