# Teaching a stubborn/uninterested dog fetch



## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

Hi there,

Just signed up cause I am wanting to get into training my dog better so I figured I would join the forum to get some help.

I have a 3 year old American Eskimo and she is smart, but a brat.
My parents spoil her all the time when I leave her with them (when I travel for work etc)

Recently I have attempted to teach her how to fetch. I first started off with having her touch the ball and treat her everytime she pays attention to it or touches it with her nose. However, now I am at a standstill where she won't pick it up at all even though I wait. All she does is touch is again and again expecting a treat.

What do I do at this point?

Oh in addition: for some odd reason. there has been twice whereshe has picked up one of her toys and chewed and roughed around with it and I woudl take it and throw it and she woudl run after it and bring it back but she doesn't drop it. I have to say drop it for her to do it. This is rare...she doesn't do it ever. So I believe she has the "drive" to do it.

thanks


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

enomis said:


> However, now I am at a standstill where she won't pick it up at all even though I wait. All she does is touch is again and again expecting a treat.


That's a good start. How long have you been at it? Sometimes it takes a while but most dogs eventually get frustrated with "why am I not getting a reward for touching it?!" and naturally start experimenting with their mouths.

Also, maybe you can try rubbing the scent of broth or peanut butter over it? Maybe that will convince her to lick it or even pick it up, and then you can mark and reward for that instant and build from there.


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

Canyx said:


> That's a good start. How long have you been at it? Sometimes it takes a while but most dogs eventually get frustrated with "why am I not getting a reward for touching it?!" and naturally start experimenting with their mouths.
> 
> Also, maybe you can try rubbing the scent of broth or peanut butter over it? Maybe that will convince her to lick it or even pick it up, and then you can mark and reward for that instant and build from there.


hi thanks for your reply
we've been at it for maybe 2 days now? done it 4 times? 10-15 minutes each time?

the PB and broth thing didn't work she just licks it a bit then yeah..


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Mark and reward for when she licks it; that's one step closer to picking up with her mouth than touching it with her nose.

Also, from your original post: "Oh in addition: for some odd reason. there has been twice whereshe has picked up one of her toys and chewed and roughed around with it and I woudl take it and throw it and she woudl run after it and bring it back but she doesn't drop it. I have to say drop it for her to do it. This is rare...she doesn't do it ever. So I believe she has the "drive" to do it."

How can you get THIS to happen more? When she runs after it and brings it back, if you reward her by shoving food in front of her face, would she trade the toy for the reward? Either way, sounds like you need to work more on getting her interested in picking up a toy consistently first, not the bring-it-back-to-you part yet.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I was able to train Eddee to bring back a toy by walking over to him and saying "Bring it here" ... and immediately "trading" the toy for an immediate treat (piece of cut up hot dog ... high value to him) He then began to associate this and would bring it closer to me when I gave the command. Now he will offer a toy without the asking when we play ... it is all automatic.

He was not much of a player at first. He was a resource guarder. Once again ... I used the hot dogs  ... and taught him that playing was a good thing as well as trading. I would throw the toy ... and once I was able to trade without being bitten (which I did about 4 times) ... we began on the "Bring it here" training.


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

my dog is just stubborn
for two sessions now she has at least licked the ball. but no sign of mouthing it. just one or two licks and looks at me for treat.
she expects the treat right after she does it and when she doesn't get the treat (I wait for her to mouth sometimes) she just licks it again and again than just stares at me.
what should i do now?


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Can you put that ball ... or any other toy in her mouth and make her tug? Tugging is a good start ... it gets the dog to realize toys=fun. I did this with Eddee because he was a resource guarder of toys and chews .... big time!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

My eskie doesn't like playing either! He was never taught fetch, and completely ignores all toys indoors. He'll show interest in a thrown ball/frisbee/sqeaky toy for about 5 minutes in the yard, but he just runs after it, picks it up, will look at me and take a couple of steps towards me and then tear off at a right angle, running around the yard shaking it. Maybe Snowball's just not trained enough for fetch yet, sigh.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

She's not stubborn, she just doesn't know what you want. Eskies aren't retrievers, they have no instinct for retrieval. You have to teach that and a few sessions just isn't enough. 

It bothers me when people get impatient or expect too much or fail to provide motivation and then blame the dog for being stubborn. I had to teach my supposed golden retriever mix to fetch. It took weeks and I really had to work his drive to get him to do it. He'll do it now, but it's not his favorite thing by any means.


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> She's not stubborn, she just doesn't know what you want. Eskies aren't retrievers, they have no instinct for retrieval. You have to teach that and a few sessions just isn't enough.
> 
> It bothers me when people get impatient or expect too much or fail to provide motivation and then blame the dog for being stubborn. I had to teach my supposed golden retriever mix to fetch. It took weeks and I really had to work his drive to get him to do it. He'll do it now, but it's not his favorite thing by any means.


Well what did you do? I say mine is stubborn and lazy because she knows that if she does it she will get a treat. I have her at different levels
I can either hold the ball in different locations and she will lick it and get a treat.
I can then throw the ball somewhere, she will look at me and SOMETIMES go towards the ball and nose it. Other times she will wait around to see if I give her a treat for nothing. She will see if she HAS to do it in order to get the treat. So she will either go to it, nose it and I will say yes and she will come back to me for a treat. Or she will go a few steps, look back..and either do nothing or go to the ball. However, it takes her a while before she does it agian at least a few seconds. yes i am impatient and this is annoying. she knows what to do but doesnt' do it even though I give her her favorite treat.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

enomis said:


> she knows what to do but doesnt' do it even though I give her her favorite treat.


She does NOT know what to do yet. If she is _that_ treat motivated then when she eventually learns to fetch she will do it properly for a treat for sure, but she is not there yet.
My newest dog that I've had for a month+ started out not even LOOKING at the ball when I waved it, squeaked it, threw it. She was absolutely fixated on the food in my hand. She is not toy motivated. But now, she will run across a field to bring it to me. I've used up entire meals as her rewards for playing fetch with me. If I take away the food, I am sure that after a few throws she will wise up and stop, wondering where the rewards went. 

If you admit that you are impatient and that this is annoying you, this might be why you're not making any progress. Fetch is pretty straightforward but sometimes it can be hard to explain. Why not make a video of your training progress? We can give better advice if we actually see where you guys are at.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm just going to go ahead and ask the obvious:

Why is this something that it is important for you to teach her?

Most obedience training is used as a foundation to be able to control the dog or provide a foundation for further training that does. Ie: Lose leash walking makes it possible for you to take the dog on a walk without having them be a danger to themselves, you and other people. Sit is taught to teach the dog to learn and because it provides a way to teaching good other behaviours (like sitting to greet, so they don't jump up), down and stay are also similarly safety issues. 

Most TRICK training is done because it's fun for you and the dog.

Fetch is - a game. If your dog is disinterested/has no instinct for it and isn't going to be retrieving ducks off a lake, and it's frustrating you rather than a good time--

Why?

(Also: I'm seconding Caynx - sounds like you've gotten her a decent start - go to the ball, get a treat. Now you need to build it to picking it up, and bringing it back. Expect it to take some time, if you're that determined to do it. But I maintain: She is not being a brat, and if you're frustrated enough that you're thinking she's DEFYING you and being a brat - give it a rest and move on. It's not a vital skill, here.)


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## misfitz (Oct 12, 2012)

Like others have said, she's not stubborn, she just doesn't get it yet. I went through the same thing with my dog - she didn't care about toys at all. Just keep working at it, clicking when she licks it, and be patient. You'll eventually get there. You haven't had nearly enough repetitions for a non-retriever. It took me several months to get my dog interested, but now she loves to fetch. 

It might help to take a day off, too - say, practice for two or three days, then give the dog a day off. It sounds counterintuitive, but it really does help. Their little brains are still processing what you've been training even when you're not training it.

Also try a different toy - balls are NOT easy for beginner dogs that aren't toy motivated. Try something like a rawhide chew that's shaped like a stick - much, much easier to bite. Or a tug toy. Hold it in your hand, horizontally, level with the dog's mouth, (but not so close that you're shoving it in her face.  ) I started with a ball and got stuck at the nose touch, too - my dog couldn't figure out to bite the ball when it was so much easier to roll it around on the floor. When I switched to a dumbbell she figured it out much quicker.


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## misfitz (Oct 12, 2012)

Oh, one other thing I did that helped. I gave my dog a lot of kongs and other toys with food in them. I also gave her cardboard boxes and paper towel rolls with food, and let her destroy them.* It helped her make the connection between toys, chewing, and picking things up in her mouth. (She never chewed anything before, either.) Now the empty kong is one of her favorite fetch toys.

*Don't do this if you think your dog will eat the cardboard - I knew Sienna wouldn't so it was safe. And she was always supervised with it.

Some dogs just need some extra help with the toys and retrieving things. I always joke that Sienna had to take "remedial Fetch"


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Some days I wish my dog DIDN'T like to play fetch. She's, erm, addicted.

I'd personally focus on a different activity with her if she doesn't seem to be terribly interested in fetch. Maybe teaching her "hide & seek" with a treat, or playing with a flirt pole, or learning new tricks.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Eddee started out with empty plastic water and 7UP bottles (caps and ring and labels removed for safety) He loved the crunch of them and how they rolled around .... just another thought.  He was not very interested in playing at first because he was a resource guarder. He did not play with toys ... He hid them.


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

I want to teach her for more exercise when we go out. gives me and her something to do.


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

If she is treat motivated, have you tried the "hide the treat in a ball"?

Take a tennis ball (bad for dogs in the long run, I just do it to teach the basics) and using a knife carefully make a cut. When you squeeze the tennis ball it will 'open' and you can put a smelly treat inside (dried liver, etc). Show it to her. My dog is familiar with food puzzles and immeditely tried mouthing it to get it out. When her lips/mouth touched it or she ACTED like she was going to put her mouth around it I clicked and treated HEAVILY. Like, Jackpot. Like...20 small pieces of a high value treat saying "Wow! Good work! That is great! You are soo smart!". Then silence. She went back to the ball and tried mouthing it. Repeat. "Wow, such a smart dog! Here!" and treats rained on her. I did this maybe 3-4 times then put it away. I repeated this maybe 2 times a day (morning and night) for like 3 days. She liked that ball. One day I didn't put a treat inside and when she grabbed it jackpotted again. After that I got a tennis ball without a cut and repeated again. Then I got a different ball and tried again. 

After she is successfully picking up a ball, then you can work on bringing it to you. Just a warning though. Even though I did all this and she will fetch, she has no true love for it. She will chase a ball and bring it back maybe 3-4 times before she is done. So while it may be a useful and cool trick, don't expect her whole personality to change and her to become as obsessed with it as other dogs are. Know what I mean?


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv8K9D8h57E&feature=youtu.be

Here is a video of a bit of her training.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Ok, a few things. 
The good part is you are marking at the right time, and your "Yess!" is very consistent along with the reward.
To answer your question: the reason why she keeps looking at you is she has no idea what you want her to do, so she's trying to read you for directions.

You are throwing the rawhide way too soon. (Why are you using rawhide?) She hasn't made any associations with the item yet, so here's what you should do. I am going to use "ball" as the item but obviously you can use whatever you want. But when training, you should pick one item and stick with it. Meaning, if she ever 'gets it' with the ball, it doesn't mean she'll immediately 'get it' with a stick, a different ball, or rawhide, etc.
*
Part 1*
1. Hold the ball in your hand. 
2. Wait for your dog sniff it.
3. Mark and reward when your dog touches the ball with her nose
4. If she is hesitant, you can either rub something yummy smelling on it, or *gently* touch it to her nose for her.
5. Do 50 successful repititions. Make sure not to always hold the ball at the same place. Move it higher, lower, etc.

*Part 2 *
1. Put the ball on the floor. DO NOT THROW IT.
2. Mark and reward when your dog touches the ball with her nose
3. Do 50 successful repititions. Make sure to move the ball to different places, but keep it near her and do not throw.
4. *Jackpot* if she already starts to lick, mouth, or pick it up

*Part 3*
1. The ball is still on the floor *not thrown*
2. Raise criteria. Do not mark or reward for just nosing. Wait for her to lick or mouth the ball.
3. Mark and reward whenever her teeth make contact with the ball
4. Do 50 successful repetitions. If it's not happening, go back to Part 2 and repeat that first.

*Part 4*
1. Ball still on floor.
2. Raise criteria again. Mark and reward when she not only mouths the ball, but actually picks it up, even if it's just one second
3. Do 50 successful repititions. If it isn't working, go back to Part 3 and repeat that.


*Part 5*
1. She should be REALLY excited about the ball now.
2. Throw it *3 feet* in front of you, or gently roll it across the floor. Do NOT throw it far.
3. Mark and reward when she picks it up.
4. Do 50 successful repititions.

*Part 6* 
You should eventually get up to this point:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2_R-yA0utY
Only the first 40 seconds or so are relevant.

Notice:
-Dog is excited about the ball (she is not naturally toy motivated)
-I do not throw the ball far
-She has learned to pick up the ball but is not "fetching" yet
-I am rewarding for her picking up the ball and coming slightly towards me, EVEN THOUGH it isn't a complete fetch yet
-This is four days after I adopted her, and four days after her spay surgery. She will now chase a ball across a field and bring it to my hand. Her "Bring it here" is also generalized for any object I indicate. 
You can do it.

One more note: "50 repititions" is just a number I picked. Some dogs learn slower, some quicker. But I find that when people are trying really hard for that end result, they often rush the steps or are too quick to jump ahead, resulting in "my dog knows it now, why isn't she doing it?" It will certainly not hurt to repeat 50 times.

Edit: Also, judging by the video she does not seem to be stubborn. She actually looks like she would be eager to learn.


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

Here is another one taken earlier before the last comment.

http://youtu.be/JFsHfWphC4U


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

Hi Canyx. Thank you for your help. I have just reached part 3. She is starting to lick it. However, how do I get her from licking to actually mouthing it/picking it up?

also here is an update video/progress video

http://youtu.be/mJ2IPBo0HXc


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

enomis said:


> Here is another one taken earlier before the last comment.
> 
> http://youtu.be/JFsHfWphC4U


This isn't working for me?


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

Canyx said:


> This isn't working for me?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFsHfWphC4U&feature=youtu.be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ2IPBo0HXc&feature=youtu.be

do those work?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Yes! Great job, she is getting there! 
One minor note: pick either the ball or the rawhide and stick with that for now. Use the same toy to train her, and when she Gets It, you can train her on different items.

I see you are immediately marking and rewarding when she touches the ball, which is a great start. You can see that she interacts with the rawhide much more quickly than she did in the first video you posted.
My question is, what would happen if you stopped marking immediately, and instead waited for her to offer more behaviors? She might lick and nose the ball, then look at you expecting a reward. But if you don't do anything, maybe she will start mouthing it more?
Because now she knows the reward is coming from interacting with the ball, but she just doesn't know HOW she should be interacting with it yet.


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Yes! Great job, she is getting there!
> One minor note: pick either the ball or the rawhide and stick with that for now. Use the same toy to train her, and when she Gets It, you can train her on different items.
> 
> I see you are immediately marking and rewarding when she touches the ball, which is a great start. You can see that she interacts with the rawhide much more quickly than she did in the first video you posted.
> ...


I am going to stick with the ball from now on. 
I will try to take another video with her licking the ball and I will wait until I see another interaction. However, I have done this before and she just looks at me or makes a wimper noise. She will continue licking the ball or nosing it and not do anythign.

Let's try it out.

edit: tried doing it but she may be tired. I started with 10 ball licks with rewards. Waited for 11th one. She licked. licked. nosed .nosed then stared at me. laid down and did nothing. for about 20 seconds.

edit edit: just took her for a walk, took some treats, and the ball. Went to an openish grass area. Took her leash off she ran around a bit and I threw the ball a little ways away. She opened her mouth twaords it but never put it in her mouth. I rewarded her for that. She did it a few times.
Don't know if this counts..


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

enomis said:


> edit edit: just took her for a walk, took some treats, and the ball. Went to an openish grass area. Took her leash off she ran around a bit and I threw the ball a little ways away. She opened her mouth twaords it but never put it in her mouth. I rewarded her for that. She did it a few times.
> Don't know if this counts..


Yes that counts! Just keep on repeating all of this and don't push forward too quickly. It's better to reinforce each tedious step and get a polished finished result, rather than rushing to get the end result and have everything be sloppy.


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

Big progress. Will update with video soon!
Excited


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxxP3xF8bN8&feature=youtu.be

heres a link
whats my next step?
she will go for it if I throw the ball short distance, if there is a treat inside for now.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Fantastic! And putting a treat into the ball is a GREAT idea, way to be creative!

You need more of what happens at :25 and :44, where she's not catching it, but rather just holding it in her mouth. Reward for a few successful rounds of that.
Then wait, and reward for duration, ie holding it longer in her mouth. That might take a while, but then reward for holding it in her mouth while coming towards you (even one step 'by accident' is good). You'll get there!


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

Awesome Canyx! Thanks for this breakdown. I'm looking at teaching fetch- see if it takes with either of my dogs.



Canyx said:


> Ok, a few things.
> The good part is you are marking at the right time, and your "Yess!" is very consistent along with the reward.
> To answer your question: the reason why she keeps looking at you is she has no idea what you want her to do, so she's trying to read you for directions.
> 
> ...


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Good luck titiaamor! Though I should say that I wrote this after watching enomis' videos so it's 'tailored' to his dog. But there are a million ways to teach fetch and enomis has even figured out things for himself, like putting a treat into the ball.
Your dogs will tell you how they learn best


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## misfitz (Oct 12, 2012)

Great progress! Bailey is totally adorable.


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## enomis (Oct 29, 2012)

here is an updated video.
warning: I totally forgot I was wearing my underwear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjGri95Bzhg

what do i do now?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Awesome! :29 You can tell she totally wants the ball (also, the way she goes after it).
Now you're almost where I was in the video I posted as an example. I can see that she already picks it up and carries it for a second or two before dropping it.
Throw it closer to you. She gets the concept of 1. Going after the ball 2. Getting the ball. But still not the bring it to you part. So start very close and very gradually move further away.

Another idea, building off your idea... What if the ball was full of food (make sure she can't get it out herself) and you reward her FROM the ball? I imagine you cut a slit into the ball? So if you squeeze it, it would open like a purse and you can drop one treat out for her every time she brings it to you (however far or close). This might accelerate the process (or not!) because she will very quickly realize that the ball needs to be in your hands for the treat to come out!


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## misfitz (Oct 12, 2012)

Canyx has good advice, I have just one addition. You might have to teach her the extra step of putting the ball in your hand. My dog didn't get that part until I taught her to literally target my hand with the toy in her mouth. First I had put my hand under her face when she was holding the toy, and clicked for that. Then moved it a few inches away and clicked her for moving towards my hand. Then I moved further, etc. She got it quickly, but needed the extra step to understand that the task was to bring the toy to *me* instead of just picking it up.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

misfitz said:


> Canyx has good advice, I have just one addition. You might have to teach her the extra step of putting the ball in your hand. My dog didn't get that part until I taught her to literally target my hand with the toy in her mouth. First I had put my hand under her face when she was holding the toy, and clicked for that. Then moved it a few inches away and clicked her for moving towards my hand. Then I moved further, etc. She got it quickly, but needed the extra step to understand that the task was to bring the toy to *me* instead of just picking it up.


Yes, great advice for delivering the ball to your hand!
I taught both of mine to put the ball in my hand from the beginning, since I can't be bothered to bend down and pick it up. To the OP, you can see in my video that I clicked and rewarded when she dropped the ball near my hand. She eventually dropped it closer and closer until it was IN my hand, exactly as misfitz described the process. But a lot of people prefer that their dogs just drop it in front of them, especially people with those throwing sticks. So I just assumed that was the case for the OP. 
Great point though!


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## synm26 (Jul 26, 2012)

Nil said:


> *Take a tennis ball (bad for dogs in the long run, I just do it to teach the basics)*?


Sorry know this has nothing to do with OP post but why is this bad in the long run?


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