# The Dog Whisperer - You Like The Show??



## Kay Weber (Oct 21, 2009)

Anyone else like the Dog Whisperer on National Geographic Channel? 

We saw Cesar Millan speak in OKC a couple years back - it was very cool!

"I rehabilitate dogs - and train people!"

What do you think?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

If you do a forum search for "Cesar Milan" or "dog whisperer" you'll discover that he is a controversial and divisive presence.

People tend to fall into one of three camps:


Love him and his ideas.
Hate many, if not most, of his idea.
Find him personable and entertaining but would not dream of doing anything that he does on television.
I happen to fall into the third camp. I compare him with Mike Rowe on _Dirty Jobs. _I enjoy the show and watch it often, but I would not try any of it at home. 

If people would actually heed the disclaimer on the_ Dog Whisperer_, I think we'd all be just fine.


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## MafiaPrincess (Jul 1, 2009)

Camp 2 he's a tool.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

I think he is ok. I dont believe he just walks in and somehow the dog starts to listen.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm in Camp 4: agree some/disagree some with what he does, and have no strong feelings about him either way.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

I like him. I think he's a great guy that really does have the animals best interests at heart and he does his best to help them. I think that his exercise/discipline/affection ideal applies to most if not all dogs, but his techniques for rehabilitating aggressive dogs should not be used by viewers at home on their own dogs. I don't think you can learn everything by watching a TV show.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

would love a chance to alpha roll Cesar Milan. 

Imma go sit by MafiaPrincess now.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I'm in Camp 4: agree some/disagree some with what he does, and have no strong feelings about him either way.


Sorry, MM. Check the forum rules:

27: You MUST have strong feelings about Cesar Milan one way or another and be prepared to defend them to the death.

You've been here long enough that you should know that.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I'm in Camp 4: agree some/disagree some with what he does, and have no strong feelings about him either way.


Ditto... I'm camp 4 as well.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I'm in Camp 4: agree some/disagree some with what he does, and have no strong feelings about him either way.


I agree with Marsh Muppet and know of many many people who feel this way about this trainer O O P S ...person.

I believe we need to add another catagory which reflects this opinion also.

I am happy that he is showing more incentive based training/conditioning in his processes although I believe that it will not change any opinions of him and that he will always be the man who a majority of dog owners and trainers believe "set training back 20 years" regardless of the many dogs/people he supposedly has saved/rehabbed.

It surely is a topic that has been through the wash a million times over and never seems to dry out. ;-)


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I would have to agree with MM also...

I like the fact that his show was the first time I saw pits and other bullys shown as trainable and non viscious killing machines on tv (other shows like animal cops etc show them in both lights).

BUT. I really don't believe in his dominance stuff and being the "ALPHA". To me a dog or dogs being in a family is not a pack. You can own a group of dogs and call it a pack but PEOPLE aren't dogs so they aren't part of the pack. I think your dogs should respect you and know that your the boss but I think it should be done through positive reinforcement.


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## Kay Weber (Oct 21, 2009)

Binkalette said:


> I like him. I think he's a great guy that really does have the animals best interests at heart and he does his best to help them. I think that his exercise/discipline/affection ideal applies to most if not all dogs, but his techniques for rehabilitating aggressive dogs should not be used by viewers at home on their own dogs. I don't think you can learn everything by watching a TV show.


I agree - we like him. Lots of little problems can be solved with exercise/discipline/affection.

As far as aggressive dogs go, I'll leave that to the experts!


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## doggieideas (Oct 16, 2009)

I think he has a strong understanding of dog behavior. He's not what I would call a trainer, he is more of a behaviorist. He is able to read a dog's body language and help other humans understand what is going on with the dog. When your trying to fix problems I think it's important to understand what is causing the dog to act that way to correct the behavior. No dog trainer is perfect, I think there is always the opportunity to learn from someone. He's techniques, I agree, are very hard to recreate.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)




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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Curb, is that one of those new designer dogs? The aardoodle?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)




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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Dude needs a Dremel.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

RonE said:


> Dude needs a Dremel.


No... Industrial grinder..


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Camp 5: I have never seen a full episode of his show, and have only seen maybe 20 minutes total of his show...and that in bits and pieces that were hardly coherent.

Yes, I am out of touch with pup culture.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL


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## txcollies (Oct 23, 2007)

He has his good points, and you can learn some good information from him.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL


So Dunbar is in camp 4 as well I guess.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

RonE said:


> If you do a forum search for "Cesar Milan" or "dog whisperer" you'll discover that he is a controversial and divisive presence.
> 
> People tend to fall into one of three camps:
> 
> ...


I'm between 2 and 3. I don't agree with his training methods, and I used to watch his show, but my interest has been dwindling. 

I do like how he encourages lots of exercise and walks. However, that's about all I agree with. His P+ methods and dominance theory really puts me off. 

Victoria Stillwell is a much better dog trainer and way more entertaining in my opinion


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Nargle said:


> I'm between 2 and 3. I don't agree with his training methods, and I used to watch his show, but my interest has been dwindling.
> 
> I do like how he encourages lots of exercise and walks. However, that's about all I agree with. His P+ methods and dominance theory really puts me off.
> 
> Victoria Stillwell is a much better dog trainer and way more entertaining in my opinion


I love Victoria Stillwell! I got a lot of "Leave It" tips from her show (although of course I didn't get as good results nor did I expect to). I love when she told that woman off for saying her dog was so pretty so she thought they would breed him .


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

pittsabowawa said:


> I love Victoria Stillwell! I got a lot of "Leave It" tips from her show (although of course I didn't get as good results nor did I expect to). I love when she told that woman off for saying her dog was so pretty so she thought they would breed him .


Lol, she has some great methods! I particularly like her solution to obsessive barking: training the "Quiet" command. 

I also love how she has to problem telling someone what's what when they're being a complete idiot, lol! I especially liked the episode where a couple had like 5 french bulldogs and one foster frenchie, and the LAZY SoB of a husband didn't care about any dog but "his" dog, and REFUSED to feed and care for the foster. She straight up tore him a new one lol! 

PS, Basil's "leave it" is pretty solid, look at my signature! Lol, j/k


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

LOL, when I watch Victoria I keep thinking "I wonder if she's single?"


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

TxRider said:


> LOL, when I watch Victoria I keep thinking "I wonder if she's single?"


LOL!!


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## bully (Sep 16, 2009)

Milan is a good marriage counselor, and can point out people's anxiety issues. I agree that it takes the correct "human" behavior to promote the correct dog behavior.

That's option 6 I guess.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

txcollies said:


> He has his good points, and you can learn some good information from him.


I agree with txcollies on this one.
And, I like the guy.

Nessa


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

I like them both take the good and leave the crap. I think Cesar is more entertaining and victoria is more informative. I hate that cesar's explinations (regardless if you agree w his methods) really are lacking but I guess thats due to his background. Victoria can be an A$$ but I guess thats just her passion. 

everyone see this clip from the greatest american dog w Victoria - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0T8GhwcI98&feature=related

LOL


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## yom (Oct 9, 2009)

Im in camp 4 - agree with some of his methods but not all

Really i watch the show more to see dogs - since Ill pretty much watch anything that has dogs


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## loganbean (Dec 3, 2008)

I like cesar and victoria. They both have great ideas and I have used both methods on my dogs. Training kind of reminds me of math- there are several ways to solve a problem. The trick is to find one that works for you/your dog.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

loganbean said:


> I like cesar and victoria. They both have great ideas and I have used both methods on my dogs. Training kind of reminds me of math- there are several ways to solve a problem. The trick is to find one that works for you/your dog.


Unless you're in the math class I'm in... then you just fail lol.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

The most amazing thing about Cesar's program is his insistence on Exercise, Discipline, and Affection. Other than that, *shrug* there're better ways to deal with most things.


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

MafiaPrincess said:


> Camp 2 he's a tool.


I disagree! A tool has its uses!


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Nargle said:


> Lol, she has some great methods! I particularly like her solution to obsessive barking: training the "Quiet" command.
> 
> I also love how she has to problem telling someone what's what when they're being a complete idiot, lol! I especially liked the episode where a couple had like 5 french bulldogs and one foster frenchie, and the LAZY SoB of a husband didn't care about any dog but "his" dog, and REFUSED to feed and care for the foster. She straight up tore him a new one lol!
> 
> PS, Basil's "leave it" is pretty solid, look at my signature! Lol, j/k


LOL I can't get bella to bark (unless she is in her dog pen and wants to come inside or in the crate in the mornings and has to potty) so I guess thats one command I don't have to deal with 
I like her techniques and most of them are pretty recreate-able. And I also likes that she tells people off. I think if you ask for her help then expect to get told off, shrug it off, take what you learned and move on.

Haha that picture is cute... bella has a good leave it(prolly about 50/50 right now) but when it comes to people food she's weird... she will stare but never take it off a plate until she knows you say its ok (I think she knows that she'll get in trouble if she tries to take people food)



TxRider said:


> LOL, when I watch Victoria I keep thinking "I wonder if she's single?"


ROFL


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

And who could ever forget Stains...


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I would invite him over for dinner. I think he would be fun to talk to. Seems like a nice guy. I just wouldn't train like he does. I think it would be sort of funny to see him around my dogs. He wouldn't have any need to ALPHA roll my dogs so I wouldn't worry about that. I think he would tell me that my dogs are spoiled but they behave well so, who cares? ha ha

As far as Victoria Stillwell, I can't stand HER though I tend to agree with her training methods more then Cesar. Guess you can't have the best of both worlds.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

I completely agree with exercise first and discipline (NILIF) but too many people don't hear this part and do the alpha roll idiocy. So, the problem isn't so much with him but the lazy people who watch him and don't listen.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

jiml said:


> I like them both take the good and leave the crap. I think Cesar is more entertaining and victoria is more informative. I hate that cesar's explinations (regardless if you agree w his methods) really are lacking but I guess thats due to his background.


Your dog is like this **Stares with wide eyes** He needs to be like this **Wiggles** 



jiml said:


> everyone see this clip from the greatest american dog w Victoria - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0T8GhwcI98&feature=related
> 
> LOL


LOL, WOW. Someone forgot to take their Midol! XD

Maybe she should try some positive reinforcement techniques with people, too 

I don't think the trainer has anything to do with the technique, though, if you know what I mean, lol! Caesar is a very charismatic guy, and I agree with Inga, he seems like someone I'd have over for dinner, even though I don't agree with his training methods. And though I like Victoria's methods a ton more, she obviously has her Cuckoo side XD


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

I think its something about british people on american television.. we expect them to act like simon cowell 

Im a big proponent of sometimes people need a good "what for" and Victoria delivers LOL
I seriously doubt she is that intense in real life


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

pittsabowawa said:


> I think its something about british people on american television.. we expect them to act like simon cowell
> 
> Im a big proponent of sometimes people need a good "what for" and Victoria delivers LOL
> I seriously doubt she is that intense in real life


It really makes me want to see the rest of that episode to see what made her react like that!!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

It's television. There is every reason to suspect the "fight" was scripted. I'm not saying it was, but a bazillion YouTube hits is motivation enough to stage such an event.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

I like him. A lot of what he says lines up with what I already did or believed to be true about dog behavior, before I ever knew who he was. His primary message of: Exercise, Discipline, Affection and Rules, Boundaries and Limitations are very good ones.

I think a lot of people misunderstand what he's doing when he elicits or places a dog in a submissive position. Not something that needs to be done often, but it does have it's time and place depending on what behavior you are working with and how extreme the case is.

Mostly, I think his message is all about energy. You can't lie to a dog. I also think it's the hardest thing for owners to learn - the proper energy to use when handling a dog or dealing with a behavior. Too often we get angry, upset, tense, frustrated or scared, which is exactly the wrong thing to do. I know it's something I struggle with myself from time to time. Perhaps that's why other methods, that may take MUCH longer, are more popular with a lot of trainers...they can focus more on an _act_ (click NOW, treat NOW) rather than intangible things like energy and relationship based training.

And I've had the pleasure of meeting him:









I'd love for him to spend some time with our pack and just talk dog.

I can't stand Victoria Stillwell, though the dog Stains was perhaps the funniest thing ever! She falls into the different trainer for different folks category.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I lie to my dogs all the time...

I can convince them what I am eating or playing with or doing is the best thing on earth pretty easily sometimes.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

TxRider said:


> I lie to my dogs all the time...
> 
> I can convince them what I am eating or playing with or doing is the best thing on earth pretty easily sometimes.


You can't lie to them about your energy/mood/feelings. They can sense our emotions sometimes better than we can, I think.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

TxRider said:


> And who could ever forget Stains...


Oh yes, he was hilarious!

I love Stilwell. She's a great trainer, and her mannerisms don't bother me.

I'm still waiting for them to make the DVD's available in US format... errr. Or for hulu to pick it up.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

lovemygreys said:


> You can't lie to them about your energy/mood/feelings. They can sense our emotions sometimes better than we can, I think.


I agree. My dogs I work/walk with all reflect my mood if I'm stressed or not feeling well...I've had to learn to use them as my "biofeedback" machine to tell me when I need to take a deep breath. I totally get the 'energy' thing, I'm a reiki practitioner so yes, I believe they can sense our changes in energy, mood and health before we can.

But comparing clicker training (the science/skill) and using energy is apples and oranges. Energy is ALL THE TIME what you need to convey, not just when training and Greys, clicker training IS all about relationship building and teamwork.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

canteloupe said:


> Oh yes, he was hilarious!
> 
> I love Stilwell. She's a great trainer, and her mannerisms don't bother me.
> 
> I'm still waiting for them to make the DVD's available in US format... errr. Or for hulu to pick it up.


Yeah the poor dog, self control is not easy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rntMjDdFLZA


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Stains was hilarious! Poor dog, he had it rough. 
I'm in category 4 as far as Cesar goes. I used his methods on Peanut when he was unruly and they work. I think different dogs need different approaches, Stilwell would have a rough time training Peanut. Hallie would do great with her methods and bad with Cesar's and Peanut would be the exact opposite. I don't agree with the overall dominance theory but whether his training methods are based on that or not, they do work. I do leash corrections but I'd never hold either one of my dogs down on their back.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Hallie said:


> I do leash corrections but I'd never hold either one of my dogs down on their back.


I might, if the situation seemed right.

Milan seems to often use holding a dog in a submissive posture for a different reason than many perceive I think.

Many instances he seems to be doing it to have a dog who won't let down it's guard stay there until it drops it's guard, relaxes, and gets to experience a state of mind without the anxiety, fear and lack of trust it constantly lives in.

That the dog gets to experience that it feels good to let go, and be trusting and able to relax in a vulnerable position, that nothing bad will happen if it just trusts and relaxes. Milan calls it "surrender" which is really not the best terminology, but semi appropriate.

It also does not always work, as has been apparent with a few dogs on his show, and it can get you bitten as well.

It's not always as simple as "I'm bigger and I will dominate you by force because I can." It's to push the dog to the point it gives up it's guard and the stress that goes with always being untrustful and on guard..

I could see doing that for that reason in some situations, I didn't with mine, but then I have unlimited time to patiently work at it, he often does not.

I have only done similar to my two dogs once so far though, when they decided to fight it out in my living room, two days after I brought Kaya home. 

First time I ever saw Hope lift a lip in anger in the better part of a year I have owned her.

They wouldn't stop when I told them to so I just grabbed both collars and yanked them both to the floor, face to face, a foot apart, before blood was spilled and waited until they calmed down, which was pretty much instantly. Extreme measures for extreme circumstances, and they haven't fought since.

And a new expectation, all fights are won by me. That was a case of I'm bigger and I will dominate because I can, the only other course I had was to let them maybe hurt each other.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

I guess I fit most into the third category. I am bothered, though, by the foot nudging he's done to the dog that I've seen in three stories. And I've watched less than 10 so far.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Thracian said:


> I guess I fit most into the third category. I am bothered, though, by the foot nudging he's done to the dog that I've seen in three stories. And I've watched less than 10 so far.


I'm not, as long as it's used like a tap on the shoulder to get their attention or break focus on something. I have to do it to mine when she's in the obsessive focused state and deaf to the world on a cat or squirrel just to get her attention to look at me for a high value treat or to get her to move on and forget the small furry thing.

She won't break her focus for two blocks if I don't. But she's getting better.

It used to be I could and did literally push a piece of grilled chicken in her mouth and she would spit it out she was so obsessed.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

TxRider said:


> I might, if the situation seemed right.
> 
> Milan seems to often use holding a dog in a submissive posture for a different reason than many perceive I think.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but if I was feeling anxious, and someone forced me to become even MORE vulnerable in that state, I wouldn't exactly calm down and give up. That's like saying a good way to cure stage fright is to shove someone on a stage butt naked!

There's a BIG difference between learning to accept a situation, and being forced to give up.



TxRider said:


> I'm not, as long as it's used like a tap on the shoulder to get their attention or break focus on something. I have to do it to mine when she's in the obsessive focused state and deaf to the world on a cat or squirrel just to get her attention to look at me for a high value treat or to get her to move on and forget the small furry thing.
> 
> She won't break her focus for two blocks if I don't. But she's getting better.
> 
> It used to be I could and did literally push a piece of grilled chicken in her mouth and she would spit it out she was so obsessed.


Basil used to fixate on squirrels, cats, and other dogs. I tried the chicken-shoving method, and the tapping method. You know what worked? Understanding his tolerance levels, knowing how far away we can stand from a stimulus without having him react, and training him to focus on me. Once your dog loses it and becomes 100% fixated, you're WAY too close to the stimulus, and you're never going to get anywhere training-wise unless you back up and have your dog focus on you at a reasonable distance.


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## JonD7 (Oct 28, 2009)

I think Cesar is awesome, I've learned a lot by watching his show, don't think I've ever missed an episode.

I don't like Victoria's training methods at all though... using treats = lame.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Hallie had an 'episode' when she got back from the vet after she got hit by a car. At that time I did have to resort to holding her down because with 3 pelvis fractures less than a day old trying to walk isn't the best Idea. After I held her down for 5 minutes she gave up and actually did calm down. That's the only time I've held one of my pups down.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Nargle said:


> I'm sorry, but if I was feeling anxious, and someone forced me to become even MORE vulnerable in that state, I wouldn't exactly calm down and give up. That's like saying a good way to cure stage fright is to shove someone on a stage butt naked!
> 
> There's a BIG difference between learning to accept a situation, and being forced to give up.


You won't cure stage fright without walking out on stage. Just like so many phobias are helped by exposure to the phobia to desensitize. Dunno where the butt naked part comes from.





> Basil used to fixate on squirrels, cats, and other dogs. I tried the chicken-shoving method, and the tapping method. You know what worked? Understanding his tolerance levels, knowing how far away we can stand from a stimulus without having him react, and training him to focus on me. Once your dog loses it and becomes 100% fixated, you're WAY too close to the stimulus, and you're never going to get anywhere training-wise unless you back up and have your dog focus on you at a reasonable distance.


Easily said, provided there actually is a distance at which she won't react. 

If she sees it she reacts, it can be blocks away distance matters little.

She even reacts to little piles of leaves from a block away, anything that might even remotely resemble a squirrel and obsesses on it. And remembers the spot she saw one at for days if not weeks and anticipates it from blocks away.

It's like it's her life, what she lives for.

The instant she walks out the door for a walk she goes to full focus on spotting one. She's reacting basically full time, and going into overdrive level 9 when she actually sees one. It's not so much reaction as it obsessive disorder level.

I'm seriously considering ending her walks altogether, but I have little other means to exercise her twice a day. Though I have brought her fetch drive from zero to enough I could get her worked out with it.

Progress is slow, with many setbacks. But it is there. I can get her to stop on command and sit, even if her eyes never leave the squirrel, or the scan for a squirrel, and I can get her to look at me if I use her recall and have some chicken, but then it's right back to the squirrel hunt.

It's like the extreme focus a working herding border collie has in full drive, almost exactly. Same focus, same look in the eye, it's like it's her job.

The pic in my avatar is her looking out the front window, at a couple of leaves, waiting for them to maybe move and be a squirrel. If her ears weren't ruined they would be at full point and facing straight forward.

I'm not convinced she even wants to catch them rather than just chase them or herd them. She had one in the front yard treed, she let it come all the way down the tree to below my knee level, with her 4 feet away, and just stood there with head low with that border collie stare, and didn't move till it hit the ground and ran for a better tree.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

TxRider said:


> You won't cure stage fright without walking out on stage. Just like so many phobias are helped by exposure to the phobia to desensitize. Dunno where the butt naked part comes from.


I agree you need to face your fears if you ever want to get over them, but it makes no sense to me to force a dog into a very vulnerable position when they're under a lot of stress already. It makes much more sense to create a positive association with whatever is stressing them. For instance, if a dog displays fear aggression towards men, it makes a LOT of sense to make men seem APPEALING, by doing something like tossing treats from 20 ft away. If you slammed the dog onto the ground every time a man came near, it makes sense that that would INCREASE the anxiety and the fear aggression. Build up the dog's confidence and trust, don't force it into giving up. Forcing them to give up is just creating a learned helplessness, and doesn't address the anxiety at all. The same thing applies to most dogs who display dog aggression, because the vast majority of dog aggression cases stem from a lack of confidence and a surplus of insecurity caused by lack of socialization. 

The "butt naked" comment was referring to the fact that laying on your back with your belly exposed is an EXTREMELY vulnerable position for a dog to be in. Dogs only offer this position if they absolutely trust you, and in the wild, the only time a wolf will force another wolf into this position is if it's a wolf from a rival pack and is going for a kill.



TxRider said:


> Easily said, provided there actually is a distance at which she won't react.
> 
> If she sees it she reacts, it can be blocks away distance matters little.
> 
> ...


I don't know your dog, but after dealing with a medium-leash-reactive Basil, and an _extremely_ DA and HA Australian Shepherd (my boyfriend's sister's dog) I've experience that when a dog is fixating on something, tapping them with your foot and shoving a treat in their face will generally have the same reaction: "Outta the way, there's a squirrel over there!" Most dogs will typically just completely blow you off. I can't fathom why a tap on the shoulder would be any more convincing than a tasty piece of grilled chicken, anyways.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Nargle said:


> The "butt naked" comment was referring to the fact that laying on your back with your belly exposed is an EXTREMELY vulnerable position for a dog to be in. Dogs only offer this position if they absolutely trust you, and in the wild, the only time a wolf will force another wolf into this position is if it's a wolf from a rival pack and is going for a kill.


Dogs also offer it if they are very submissive, trust or not, sometimes urinating as well, or if they are in fear.

Wolves absolutely roll/pin pups regularly. Just as mother and other adult dogs do with pups. And science says dogs are very much like immature wolves. Stuck in a state of perpetual immaturity via our domestication and breeding for social acceptability to humans. Permanent pups to some degree.

Dogs roll/pin others in play all the time.



> I don't know your dog, but after dealing with a medium-leash-reactive Basil, and an _extremely_ DA and HA Australian Shepherd (my boyfriend's sister's dog) I've experience that when a dog is fixating on something, tapping them with your foot and shoving a treat in their face will generally have the same reaction: "Outta the way, there's a squirrel over there!"


Exactly, but it's a decent test to see just how locked into focus they are, just as it's a good test of a dogs stress/fear whether they will accept food or not. I try it and check her at different distances and situations now and then.



> Most dogs will typically just completely blow you off. I can't fathom why a tap on the shoulder would be any more convincing than a tasty piece of grilled chicken, anyways.


Dunno why, but it does work, though it's just one of many things I use. It doesn't get her to look, but it does get her to process the sit command I just gave, very smoothly in slow motion so as to not to disturb the stalk.

She did just blow it off when she was fresh from the rescue.

I suspect it works just like someone tapping me on the shoulder if I was very focused on something. I tune out people talking to me quite easily when I'm focused.

I'll take anything I can get though and work from there with whatever woks for her. She's come a long way in 8-9 months from such a hard case. At first nothing would get through, and she would lunge from blocks away when she saw one, and be ok on leash until she saw a squirrel or a cat.

Now she's still just as focused, but much more controlled if that makes sense. I can drop her leash from a block away or even closer and she doesn't bolt, but she's just as obsessed she is just learning to control it. A tap will work now where it didn't before, and hopefully it won't be needed forever.

This is really her only serious flaw, otherwise she's an awesome dog.

I figure if I can't get rid of this drive, or divert it, I at least need to be able to control her while she's in it. I try any method I can think of or see, and just use what works, discard what doesn't. She gets a little better all the time.

Maybe soon I may be able to divert that drive to a safer outlet with some shaping of behavior to fetch, or maybe even something like sheep herding. 

My fear is her getting hit if she got loose, or was off leash. She would not even register an oncoming car till it hit her. As it is, what I work at most is a reliable stop command, with a "leave it" type command to break off and keep on walking a close second. Just proofing those off leash and her stopping in full drive off leash would make me ecstatic. I give it about another year at her current rate of progress.

I often wonder how Milan or Stillwell or others would handle the problem.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

> I'm not, as long as it's used like a tap on the shoulder to get their attention or break focus on something.


That's the weird thing about it. The two specific situations I vividly remember weren't this way. The dogs were acting fine until the foot nudge, and then the behavior became inappropriate.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Thracian said:


> That's the weird thing about it. The two specific situations I vividly remember weren't this way. The dogs were acting fine until the foot nudge, and then the behavior became inappropriate.


The thing that concerns me about the usage of the foot is that in my opinion having watched ALL of the shows is they are IMHO more than a "tap" or "nudge" and I take issue with this particular aversive which I believe can be damaging/injurious to the dog for several reasons. In many cases I believe that Cesar "STRIKES" these dogs too hard and in the wrong places.

Cesar professes to think like a dog and I know for a fact that dogs do not communicate in this manner.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

TxRider said:


> Dogs also offer it if they are very submissive, trust or not, sometimes urinating as well, or if they are in fear.
> 
> Wolves absolutely roll/pin pups regularly. Just as mother and other adult dogs do with pups. And science says dogs are very much like immature wolves. Stuck in a state of perpetual immaturity via our domestication and breeding for social acceptability to humans. Permanent pups to some degree.
> 
> Dogs roll/pin others in play all the time.


That's completely different, because the dogs are _playing_. No one is forcing anyone to do anything, the other dog is rolling over because it wants to. 

Forcing an anxious dog onto it's back is a completely different thing.



TxRider said:


> Exactly, but it's a decent test to see just how locked into focus they are, just as it's a good test of a dogs stress/fear whether they will accept food or not. I try it and check her at different distances and situations now and then.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's exactly what Basil would do, except instead of tapping him, a light backwards tug is what got him to sit. However, if I tried to continue on our walk, he wouldn't move, and if I tried to drag him, he'd flip out and start barking and jumping. I was not happy with that behavior, so I used distance and the "watch me" command to train him to ignore distractions.

You could try this, though:
http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/09/dog-training-how-to-redirect-an-excited-or-aggressive-dog-on-a-walk/


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

TxRider said:


> Dogs also offer it if they are very submissive, trust or not, sometimes urinating as well, or if they are in fear.
> 
> Wolves absolutely roll/pin pups regularly. Just as mother and other adult dogs do with pups. And science says dogs are very much like immature wolves. Stuck in a state of perpetual immaturity via our domestication and breeding for social acceptability to humans. Permanent pups to some degree.
> 
> ...



Having been around dozens of BC litters/mixed aldults of all ages over 2o+ years this (the rolling/pinning) is what I see dailey and trust is often not present and force sometimes abundant....no playing here?

I do agree however that forcing a dog on it's side rather than belly up is far more effective and less problematic for the dog/human to include physical discomfort/injury for both.

Cesar/Victoria may be good at some things but I would suggest/put my money on asking a/some experienced sheep/herding/stock dog trainers on how to get top notch off leash behaviors and control on sheep herding breeds. They do it in no time and under all of the drive/distraction issues


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

A lot of people are talking about "tapping" on the shoulder ... I thought I would just clarify, Cesar Milan doesn't tap them.

He tries to immitate the bite of another dog by forming a pincher motion with his hand and "biting" them on the neck/shoulder.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

canteloupe said:


> A lot of people are talking about "tapping" on the shoulder ... I thought I would just clarify, Cesar Milan doesn't tap them.
> 
> He tries to immitate the bite of another dog by forming a pincher motion with his hand and "biting" them on the neck/shoulder.


I think most of us were referring to the side-ways kick thing her does on walks, but that's very true, he does do the "bite" thing. 

I've always thought about it being the same as using a prong collar. I have mixed feelings about prong collars, though.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Nargle said:


> I think most of us were referring to the side-ways kick thing her does on walks, but that's very true, he does do the "bite" thing.


I thought people were referencing both his side-ways kick and his hand-to-neck bite.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

sparkle said:


> The thing that concerns me about the usage of the foot is that in my opinion having watched ALL of the shows is they are IMHO more than a "tap" or "nudge" and I take issue with this particular aversive which I believe can be damaging/injurious to the dog for several reasons. In many cases I believe that Cesar "STRIKES" these dogs too hard and in the wrong places.
> 
> Cesar professes to think like a dog and I know for a fact that dogs do not communicate in this manner.


That may be true, I have not watched all his shows. I certainly am not going to damage my dog though.



Nargle said:


> That's exactly what Basil would do, except instead of tapping him, a light backwards tug is what got him to sit. However, if I tried to continue on our walk, he wouldn't move, and if I tried to drag him, he'd flip out and start barking and jumping. I was not happy with that behavior, so I used distance and the "watch me" command to train him to ignore distractions.


Yes that works sometimes as well, depending. She'll get back up easily though, and continue on, and if I let the thing get out of sight she'll even break off and move on with a command pretty well now. She'll do it with a cat even in sight. Thanks to some calm cats around the block that made it convenient to train. 



> You could try this, though:
> http://www.naturaldogblog.com/blog/2007/09/dog-training-how-to-redirect-an-excited-or-aggressive-dog-on-a-walk/


I have, it's hard to do with a big GSD and getting her excited and pushing for food got me a few unintentional bites, as well as turning back her good manners taking treats. I can't hold her back well enough with one arm. Tug is also getting worked on, but she's not that into it yet that it can be useful.

I have read every prey drive article I could possible find, have a stack of books, and tried several things. It just comes down to it's going to take a lot of time and patience and work.

The only quicker fix might be a shock collar, and avert her from even wanting to look at one, or make her fear them. But I would rather not have to do that.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

TX have you tried "Look at That" from Control Unleashed? I have had great success with it with my prey driven dogs, along with using the premack principle for crittering. If you need or want details let me know. Cracker has a true hound's prey drive and I've managed to get it pretty much under control by starting LAT and then working on Premack training. 

I also think that the dog "relaxing" is more often the dog "giving up and shutting down"..two very different things. A physical restraint is sometimes necessary as MANAGEMENT to prevent a dog from injuring someone but as a training tool it is not a good idea.

As an aside on the "rolling/pinning" subject. When an adult dog corrects a puppy the correction is swift AND forceful and the puppy rolls on it's own. It's ritualized aggression and ritualized submission. It only gets to a physical pin if the puppy does not respond. Cracker has caused many a puppy to roll over instantaneously without ever making bodily contact but it LOOKS like it is contact because it is so close and fast (and loud! it sounds like a ROAR).

To the guy who wrote "treat training=lame"...guess my ten years of dealing with fearful and aggressive dogs (both DA and HA) is also lame..because I use treats. Oh well. Lame it is then.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Cracker said:


> As an aside on the "rolling/pinning" subject. When an adult dog corrects a puppy the correction is swift AND forceful and the puppy rolls on it's own. It's ritualized aggression and ritualized submission. It only gets to a physical pin if the puppy does not respond. .


I would agree on the adult to pup interaction but the adult to adult/pup to pup action is 
/can be far different and many times I have observed dogs getting injured in the process.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Oh, I agree...injury certainly can happen. But it's usually not on the "first pass" unless the aggressive one has issues of it's own...this is where the human has to step in. I don't allow dogs of any age to harass or bully one another and this is why supervision is so important.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

What I would love to see. a non political or bashing thread with experienced trainers/ rescue workers describing how and why their method works for fearfull and or aggressive dogs. Maybe each side can learn something?

I know some very experienced trainers on both sides of the philosophy debate that work with fearfull and agressive dogs that get or claim to get results. Each side claims the others damages the dogs (A common argument from the trainers that use aversives for agression is that the p positive training takes way too long. Pos trainers often say adversives make things worse).


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> TX have you tried "Look at That" from Control Unleashed? I have had great success with it with my prey driven dogs, along with using the premack principle for crittering. If you need or want details let me know. Cracker has a true hound's prey drive and I've managed to get it pretty much under control by starting LAT and then working on Premack training.


I'll try anything once..  As long as it doesn't include actually letting her chase one. I have control unleashed right here on my coffee table, I'll look that part over.

Right now looking at the critter is what I am working on as her reward for listening and processing a command.

I have taken to trying to make her earn anything on our walks, she earns the leash, she earns going out the door, she earns a minute to sniff, she earns getting to watch the squirrel. It's the only way I've been able to make progress. Learning to earn the easier things seems to be helping when she gets to the tougher things like a squirrel in sight.

I'm still open to experimenting with different ways to make her get it though. Or to desensitize or divert her obsession which would be even better.



> I also think that the dog "relaxing" is more often the dog "giving up and shutting down"..two very different things. A physical restraint is sometimes necessary as MANAGEMENT to prevent a dog from injuring someone but as a training tool it is not a good idea.


I dunno about more often, but it surely does happen. Each dog is different.

Would Hope have trusted sooner if I had forced her onto her side, without her feet under her, and made her stay there until she relaxed and showed her she could trust me not to hurt her if she was vulnerable? Knowing her I think she would have, and she definitely would not have bitten me.

I had bigger issues at the time though, namely getting her to allow me to treat her ear infections before they hurt her hearing.



> As an aside on the "rolling/pinning" subject. When an adult dog corrects a puppy the correction is swift AND forceful and the puppy rolls on it's own. It's ritualized aggression and ritualized submission. It only gets to a physical pin if the puppy does not respond. Cracker has caused many a puppy to roll over instantaneously without ever making bodily contact but it LOOKS like it is contact because it is so close and fast (and loud! it sounds like a ROAR).


Hope has pinned pups, she did it to Kaya just a minute ago. Pups learn to roll on their own to me it seems, they are taught that ritual.

It's a little beside the point really though.



> To the guy who wrote "treat training=lame"...guess my ten years of dealing with fearful and aggressive dogs (both DA and HA) is also lame..because I use treats. Oh well. Lame it is then.


ROFL, and to think all the millions of dogs, cats, dolphins, whales, seals, and other animals taught that way were all lame.

It might have taken months to be able able to handle Hope's painful infected ears without treat training her to trust me to touch them, then to handle them when I brought her home.

But treats are far from the only reward I use to train.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

I've only seen a couple of Cesar's shows... and so far I haven't seen anything that I take any sort of issue with. I find him very entertaining and like how he focuses on training the owner... since that's usually the root of the problem.

As far as the "alpha roll," most of the time when he's done it on the episodes I've seen, it's not this violent, jerk the dog down and pin him to the ground move... it's been slower and calmer, more like encouraging the dog to lay on its side, but not taking "no" for an answer. I think "alpha roll" is a misnomer.... because you're not actually throwing the dog down and making it roll.

I had to use the lay down technique once with my Rottie when he growled aggressively at ME. I didn't get all up in his face and throw him down, I verbally corrected him and then gently pushed him down on his side. He didn't resist and relaxed immediately (much like the Rottie I saw on one of Cesar's shows). Had I even thought for a second that the growl was more than an annoyance on his part, I would not have tried it at the risk of getting myself bit/attacked. Thus the whole "do not try this at home" warning. (P.S. this incident occurred BEFORE I saw even one episode of Cesar's show).



Nargle said:


> If you slammed the dog onto the ground every time a man came near, it makes sense that that would INCREASE the anxiety and the fear aggression.


True, but again I don't think the point is to SLAM the dog into the ground. 



> I can't fathom why a tap on the shoulder would be any more convincing than a tasty piece of grilled chicken, anyways.


The reason why a treat may not be as effective as a tap is that sometimes very smart dogs will figure out that bad behavior = treat. My GSD figured this out. I tried to redirect with treats when she chased the cats. She would go chase the cats, then come eagerly for her treat BEFORE I even called her over. Same thing for pulling. Pull, pull, pull on the leash, then come back into heel position (again, without me asking) and wait for the treat. It's no different with obsessing. Obsess, obsess, obsess... "okay where's my treat?"

With my dogs, the only way the "redirect" method works is if I can get their attention, ask them to perform some other behavior (sit, walk back, dance, down, etc.) and THEN give the treat.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I think "alpha roll" is a misnomer.... because you're not actually throwing the dog down and making it roll.
> 
> I had to use the lay down technique once with my Rottie when he growled aggressively at ME. I didn't get all up in his face and throw him down, I verbally corrected him and then gently pushed him down on his side. He didn't resist and relaxed immediately (much like the Rottie I saw on one of Cesar's shows). Had I even thought for a second that the growl was more than an annoyance on his part, I would not have tried it at the risk of getting myself bit/attacked. Thus the whole "do not try this at home" warning. (P.S. this incident occurred BEFORE I saw even one episode of Cesar's show).
> 
> ...


I agree and have used similar approaches (and not so ) in what I refer to as "siding a dog" such as you mentioned with success and the problem here for this issue/the general issue is about all of the variables in any given approach in this process for a particular dog/situation. The reason for using this/a particular approach also depends on what behaviors are being targeted.

Sometimes it can be that a dog needs "forced" or "manipulated" to lay on it's side and is not considered so "gentle" by some (sometimes the amount of force /restraint needed is more or less for other dogs) and sometimes a multiple fingered poke to the dogs neck can be beneficial (as Cesar does) and again with different intensities/timing and don't forget about the presence factor. There can be a significant variation in stress levels for the dog and human depending on each dog, human, and circumstance that must be taken into account.

Here are 2 examples on youtube that illustrate some differences and similarities.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abORxeAh7xw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ9kdc9bktQ


Along with this approach it can be important to also control the dogs back end at the same time with just the right touch without using restraint or too much restraint at critical points in the process. Sometimes certain dogs will resist more and take much longer to relax (which is a critical point in the process) and a more skillful/patient approach is needed to "WIN" or succeed.

It then becomes a issue of what the dog learned by the particular approach/process and how such approach either changed/condtioned the dogs behavior to a greater value...or a lessor one. Much energy (often huge amounts) of speculation (often inaccurate) of what the dog learned and how the dog might act in the furture becomes a missing piece of information/knowledge which I think is critical in making descisions about the usage of any process, especially when using aversives.

It's all about each individual dog and experience and often I find snapshot generalities/absolutes and testimonials do not accurately communicate all of the possibilities and probabilities in the EXPERIMENT....which quite honestly can go bad without the proper skill set.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

MegaMuttMom said:


> I completely agree with exercise first and discipline (NILIF) but too many people don't hear this part and do the alpha roll idiocy. So, the problem isn't so much with him but the lazy people who watch him and don't listen.


Completely agree with this comment MMM. 

Oh and I CANNOT stand Victoria Stillwell, she drives me up the wall... so annoying. But there's things that can be learned from both she and Cesar.
Nessa


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

nikelodeon79 said:


> I've only seen a couple of Cesar's shows... and so far I haven't seen anything that I take any sort of issue with. I find him very entertaining and like how he focuses on training the owner... since that's usually the root of the problem.
> 
> As far as the "alpha roll," most of the time when he's done it on the episodes I've seen, it's not this violent, jerk the dog down and pin him to the ground move... it's been slower and calmer, more like encouraging the dog to lay on its side, but not taking "no" for an answer. I think "alpha roll" is a misnomer.... because you're not actually throwing the dog down and making it roll.
> 
> ...


I think it's completely okay if the dog goes down on its own. However, I've seen Caesar hold a dog down by its neck while it was flailing about and snapping. That doesn't seem to voluntary to me.

Also, the point about the "slamming" the dog to the ground isn't just that being pushed roughly onto the ground is uncomfortable. The big issue is that causing an anxious dog to become MORE anxious by forcing them into a position where they feel vulnerable and helpless doesn't seem like a very good idea, based on common sense. You need to make the dog feel like everything is going to be okay, not that it gets to feel exposed and vulnerable every time its in a situation that causes anxiety. 



nikelodeon79 said:


> The reason why a treat may not be as effective as a tap is that sometimes very smart dogs will figure out that bad behavior = treat. My GSD figured this out. I tried to redirect with treats when she chased the cats. She would go chase the cats, then come eagerly for her treat BEFORE I even called her over. Same thing for pulling. Pull, pull, pull on the leash, then come back into heel position (again, without me asking) and wait for the treat. It's no different with obsessing. Obsess, obsess, obsess... "okay where's my treat?"
> 
> With my dogs, the only way the "redirect" method works is if I can get their attention, ask them to perform some other behavior (sit, walk back, dance, down, etc.) and THEN give the treat.


I definitely agree that you can train a dog to do bad things for treats. However every treat I give Basil is preceded by a desirable behavior. For instance, whenever he reacts to something on-leash, I make him sit and make eye contact with me for a few seconds, then I reward him. If he barks, I make him sit silently for several seconds, then reward him. Some people think I'm rewarding for barking and reacting to things on-leash, but the last thing he was doing before he got the treat was sitting silently. And this method has _worked_. Basil hushes on cue without any treats, and is nowhere near as reactive on-leash as he used to be. I can go to Petsmart and have him sit at my feet and look at me, and never break eye contact as a dozen dogs walk up to him and sniff him and bark at the back of his head.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

If I had to be stuck on a remote Island with a dog, and either Victoria or Cesar I'd probably pick Cesar because Victoria just grates on my nerves. Now I agree more with positive training/clicker training (treat training is not lame) and I prefer to train a dog who is wagging their tail the whole time and thinking and problem solving on their own as opposed to scared, confused and shut down. I do disagree with a lot of Cesar's methods. But his energy stuff is right on the money. Absolutely. I hate the alpha roll, I firmly believe that dominance has no place whatsoever in the dog world, and I can't believe that flooding is a great idea all the time. I've read his books, watched his show for a few years, and I've read Karen Pryor, Pat Miller and Patricia McConnell, Turid Rugaas books. But Victoria just grates on my nerves, it's like fingernails on a chalk board. I can't stand to listen to her for a minute.


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## JonD7 (Oct 28, 2009)

Cracker said:


> To the guy who wrote "treat training=lame"...guess my ten years of dealing with fearful and aggressive dogs (both DA and HA) is also lame..because I use treats. Oh well. Lame it is then.


Hahaha! sorry Cracker, I believe it can be a good and useful method, that's what I did with Butch when he was a puppy to train him, I just don't believe in using treats for EVERY thing like Victoria does, I taught Butch a lot without using treats because... come on, we don't ALWAYS have treats around.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Cracker said:


> I agree. My dogs I work/walk with all reflect my mood if I'm stressed or not feeling well...I've had to learn to use them as my "biofeedback" machine to tell me when I need to take a deep breath. I totally get the 'energy' thing, I'm a reiki practitioner so yes, I believe they can sense our changes in energy, mood and health before we can.
> 
> But comparing clicker training (the science/skill) and using energy is apples and oranges. Energy is ALL THE TIME what you need to convey, not just when training and Greys, clicker training IS all about relationship building and teamwork.


No, clicker training is about using subconscious conditioning techniques plus bribes/lures to shape behavior.

Relationship based training is when a dog does what you ask, not to get that click or reward, but because of the bond and respect between the handler and dog.

Both have their place, but they are not the same. Yes, the handlers energy is always important, but in what Cesar does (most of the time) it's the ONLY thing he uses. VS using a bribe or lure to get a dog to do something. Again, both have their time and place but they are not the same. 

IMO, it's much harder to learn to handle dogs w/o bribes. But, training should be dependent on the dog and the situation. I've seen lots of owners (including trainers) become little more than walking treat dispensers. That's fine if that's their goal, but if I'm working on changing a behavior I want the dog to change not just because there is a clicker or treat bag in the room. However, if I'm trying to teach my dog a new trick then you bet the bribes come out.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Greys, I guess my point was not clear. What I meant by relationship building is to get to the point where the dog WANTS to participate in the learning and training process and wants to take risks and make attempts at learning new skills. Clicker training is FOR new skills and then the click/treat is faded...so for those of you who are not familiar it is NOT necessary to always have your clicker nor is it always necessary to have food rewards on hand unless you are in a training session or working on a specific behaviour. There are also different sorts of rewards used, it is not always food...it's just food, in the beginning is the simplest to deliver timing wise and the clearest for the dog to understand.

I also politely request that you try not to call rewards bribes. Used PROPERLY they are not bribes...the biggest mistake people make with any sort of reward training is not fading the lure after two or three reps and that is how the "my dog won't do unless I have a treat in hand" happens..this is the fault of the trainer/handler..not the method itself. 

I also don't believe that there are many dogs out there that perform in training sessions without rewards of SOME KIND. Unless a good reinforcement history of some kind has been evident in training, creating a conditioned reinforcement response (where the dog starts to find the training Itself rewarding) is very difficult to do. I'm not saying it can't be done, but if the handler wants results, the dog must find something about the work rewarding. There are some dogs who will gladly work simply for praise or attention but they are pretty dang rare.

Chris..no worries..I hope the above paragraphs clear up the "having treats all the time issue". Remember as well that the tv shows do not show the whole story...treats are faded after behaviours are learned. We don't get the whole picture.


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## brecken (Oct 25, 2009)

I LOVE THAT SHOW and so does my dog she loves watching him, and he also has great ways to help train your dog....


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Greys, I guess my point was not clear. What I meant by relationship building is to get to the point where the dog WANTS to participate in the learning and training process and wants to take risks and make attempts at learning new skills.


Relationships as we all know between a dog and human can form in many ways but usually revolve around respect and trust or lack there of IMHO. There are so many process along the way in which we can either get a dog to work for us or with us and anything in between and sometimes it does not always mean that the dog has to like it or want to do it. Of course I would think that we all would choose to have a dog want to enjoy doing what we want,need, or like for them to do. I do not believe that in the many realities (the many different circumstances ) that is alway possible/probable at all times for every situation and there are times when it is beneficial to use approaches or methods that best fits our needs verses ones that are most enjoyable .



It is interesting the many perpectives to trust and respect verses do it for me because I say so verses because you want to verses do you enjoy it and find it rewarding verses do you not.

Some say you can gain trust with a cookie but not nec respect and others feel that you can both trust and a form of respect thru fear and then those who believe in all of the other combinations inbetween. 

I think that often we tend to blur out the important line/distinction between shaping, motivating, and creating desired behaviors verses eliminating undesired ones. I think a big part of the confusion and misunderstanding in which operants one might attempt/choose to use is seldom clarified in many if not most of the debate/argument in conditioning/training dogs taking particular distinctions into account..to include resource factors that include time,knowledge,skillset,understanding, needs,wants,desires,philosophy,patience, and specific environment concerns ECT. There are just so many complicated things to consider when attempting to generalize approaches for solutions.

I certainly can understand and agree with the suggestion and for me the reality that it is far more beneficial, joyful, and EASY to condition/teach/train a dog to go over a jump, run through a tunnel, and go over a high walk, ect using primarily incentive best approaches. But... this is not(for me) to say that all training has to be exclusively incentive based and that a combination of the 4 quads cannot be used at some point for certain issues in a training session. Personnaly I refrain suggesting absolutes.

There are times depending on a wide range of circumstances that I do not want my dog to experiment, make other descisions, or take risks and thus I find it easier and better for me in gaining a high standard to a boundary behavior to use P+ at various points in the conditioning/training process. 
Often the dog might have to experience a period of stress and quite probably not enjoy the moment in having to be forced to in essence (not to mix or sugar coat words) give somewhat reluctantly to a demand. For some/many this concept and way of thinking is considered somewhat unethical, uneducated, lazy, outdated, misinformed,stupid,ignorant, inhumane,can under all circumstances be done differently OR SHOULD BE, politically incorrect (ECT>ECT>ECT>), and boarding on being criminal to say the least.


On the other hand when I desire, need, want, or have no issue with behaviors that require being creative/experimental, free spirited, risky,non-boundary, ect.
I simple use primarily R+ or incentive based approaches. 

The complicated reality to choices however that I have experienced is that all 4 quads can be utilized to gain success and resolution at almost any time in a total process. 

For example when I train for agility I use bribes,lures,motivation,cues,clickers,target training,heavy praise,a number of rewards,ect..... and at certain times for certain behaviors I still can resort
to using some levels of *aversive* POSITIVE PUNISHMENT . For example if a dog continously jumps off of a walk after all other non aversive attempts have failed I simply apply a customized physical correction appropriate for the circumstance and the behavior is eliminated. When I am training a working dog for herding, SAR, service dog,ect I use lots of P+ at times because there are many circumstances in which I want the dog to understand certain boundaries to behavior quite clearly under intense distractions and external influences and have confidence in knowing that certain boundaries to behavior are highly unlikely to be broken. Another example is that if a dog over a period of times fails to maintain learned sit/stay I will use a aversive correction that always seems a solution for me that provides for a clearer understanding to maintaining that standard.

But then again there is the element of intelligent disobedience which must be taken into account. Thing is we could go back and forth all day on the what if's which is why things can be so complicated to discuss and expecially generalize as we seem to reflex to in such discussions which again I think causes all of the amiguity and counter arguments but most noticably the (often inapropriate) tagging/labeling, ctritisims, name callig, and character assination.







[/QUOTE] Clicker training is FOR new skills and then the click/treat is faded...so for those of you who are not familiar it is NOT necessary to always have your clicker nor is it always necessary to have food rewards on hand unless you are in a training session or working on a specific behaviour. There are also different sorts of rewards used, it is not always food...it's just food, in the beginning is the simplest to deliver timing wise and the clearest for the dog to understand.[/QUOTE]

There will always be the debate and agreement/disagreement on how to intially create or extinguish certain behaviors but often the dirty little secrets on how to maintain them is often never honestly discussed which I find to be missing in much many discussions. For example what are the possibilities of having to re-introduce the intitial training approach for behaviors that diminish or deteroriate outside of the desired standard/s? Do we not have to apply those "things" again in some form to maintain the behavior/s or get the behavior back on track?

So many what if's to consider when generalizing and understanding the many different circumstances possible.

[/QUOTE] I also politely request that you try not to call rewards bribes. Used PROPERLY they are not bribes...the biggest mistake people make with any sort of reward training is not fading the lure after two or three reps and that is how the "my dog won't do unless I have a treat in hand" happens..this is the fault of the trainer/handler..not the method itself. 
[/QUOTE]


Same problems with P+ conditioning methods




[/QUOTE]I also don't believe that there are many dogs out there that perform in training sessions without rewards of SOME KIND. Unless a good reinforcement history of some kind has been evident in training, creating a conditioned reinforcement response (where the dog starts to find the training Itself rewarding) is very difficult to do. [/QUOTE]


Although there are in fact many training sessions performed daily (and quite successfully) across the world with what could be considered NO treats,lures.bribes,praise,+incentives, ect. It would be difficult to judge wether or not a dog finds a training session rewarding simply because it follows the program at the moment.????? How can we tell other than physical demeaner/body language. I have witnessed time and again dogs that have been taught to sit, heel, down, not pull against a leash, ect and in one or two sessions by all accounts seem to be happy,confident, and content to include tail wagging and licking the handler. I am not sure exactly what your point is about working for rewards/being rewarding?

[/QUOTE]I'm not saying it can't be done, but if the handler wants results, the dog must find something about the work rewarding. There are some dogs who will gladly work simply for praise or attention but they are pretty dang rare.[/QUOTE] 

I would agree that it can be/might be considered rewarding to the dog to simply have a peaceful relationship that is simply based on a "good relationship"

[/QUOTE]Chris..no worries..I hope the above paragraphs clear up the "having treats all the time issue". Remember as well that the tv shows do not show the whole story...treats are faded after behaviours are learned. We don't get the whole picture.[/QUOTE]


This debate for me and ones like it is sort of like saying those that use P+ always do and never do anything else. I know for a fact that Ceaser has used and suggests in cases incentive based conditioning that included treats,rewards,lures,bribes,target training,toys,lots of effection ect. and for some reason many seem to overlook this fact as they judge him and his variable approaches.

The interesting and uniqe thing about dogs in my experience is that generally they want to please the human in a relationship and sometimes a dog can just find that rewarding regardless of the things that go on in a relationship. Which is sometime a joyful thought and in some cases a somber thought in reality.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I think you can see from my posts that I do not argue P+ as ineffective, nor do I participate in character assassination..I do my best to explain the risks/pitfalls of any and all quadrants when the issue comes up. 

Yes, I've also seen dogs that with use of the P+ seem happy to obey their commands/handler. But also being very familiar with behaviour it is important to point out that a wagging tail or a hand lick does not necessarily indicate happiness, a lot depends on the particular dog and on any other signals given. The hand lick COULD be an appeasement behaviour and the tail wag could be one of many things as well. I don't think that the PROPER application of P+ is wrong and in emergencies or any situation where safety of the dog or anyone else is in question you do what you have to do in that moment to mitigate the circumstance. I simply choose not to use it for many reasons, the most important being that the majority of the dogs I work with are fearful and the risks are too high. 

When I speak of a dog that wants to work and is willing to take risks I speak of a dog that does not fear punishment in TRAINING and so is willing to try to new things, not one who suddenly decides to go off and do something inappropriate while you are out and about on your walks. Training is meant to be transferred into real life, but the actual training does not START there, it starts in low distraction, low pressure situations and is gradually proofed for higher distractions etc. 

As for training with punishment exclusively...I don't believe anyone (or at least a very small number) use P+ all the time, the same way I don't believe people who ONLY use R+ exist in a large number. Effective use of the quads almost always includes at least two of the four. My preference is not to use R- nor P+. I make liberal use of R+ and of P- but am not totally averse to using an occasional aversive if absolutely necessary (squirt bottle, verbal reprimand). 

When it comes to conditioned reinforcers..some dogs find R- and P+ to be a conditioned reinforcer...phew I didn't get in trouble, that makes me happy sort of thing. But in my mind (IMHO) working to avoid punishment is not what I want my dog and the dogs I work with to do. I want them to work to GAIN something. Same way I don't work to avoid bad things, I work to gain good things. This is important to me from a philosophical point of view and so it is in my life. 

I guess I'm a glass half full kind of girl..and I work hard to maintain that. It ain't all wine and roses, but when it's not, that half a glass helps me through.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

sparkle said:


> But then again there is the element of intelligent disobedience which must be taken into account.


I think too many people give the concept a short shrift.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Cracker;661208]I think you can see from my posts that I do not argue P+ as ineffective, nor do I participate in character assassination..I do my best to explain the risks/pitfalls of any and all quadrants when the issue comes up. .[/QUOTE]


I do apologize if you thought I was referring to you in terms of the character assination issue that was not a reference to you. I do appreciate and find it valuable that a person chooses/strives to expalin ALL the pitfalls associated with any approach although I am sure many people find that rarely the norm in a sence . I feel like I am that way also. Although we are alike in that way it seems we (anyone/people) are so different in our beliefs and experiences, and approaches.


[/QUOTE]
Yes, I've also seen dogs that with use of the P+ seem happy to obey their commands/handler. But also being very familiar with behaviour it is important to point out that a wagging tail or a hand lick does not necessarily indicate happiness, a lot depends on the particular dog and on any other signals given. The hand lick COULD be an appeasement behaviour and the tail wag could be one of many things as well. 
.[/QUOTE]

Again it is all about the semantics in the details as to what one derives from what they observe at any given moment or in the total picture of a relationship. I have used and do use P+ with all of my dogs and they are exhuberently happy and have been commended many times over on maintaining so many such often exhubernetly happy dogs?

However they are not ALWAYS "happy" ..especially when/at the moment of recieving a correction.



.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that the PROPER application of P+ is wrong and in emergencies or any situation where safety of the dog or anyone else is in question you do what you have to do in that moment to mitigate the circumstance. I simply choose not to use it for many reasons, the most important being that the majority of the dogs I work with are fearful and the risks are too high. .[/QUOTE]


For me allowing for P+ in emergencies and for issues that concern dog or human safety covers a huge spectrum of everyday situations. You used a modifier that confuses me 
..which is ..."you do what you have to do in that moment to mitigate the circumstance" 

So I take it that you mean you only feel it appropriate to use P+ exclusively as a reactive response under such condtions and not for/within a training program? May I ask if this P+ acts as a true correction to condition/teach the/a dog not to behave in a particular manner again? Or used simply as a punisher that could result in continual administration under such condtions time and again? To be more clear... not to act as a true correction?

To illustrate our different opinions I too/also work with fearful dogs across a wide range of disciplines to include training dogs to work (safely and appropriately) around dangerous livestock,rescue work, rehab of extreme cases, training of dogs around very dangerous situations in various extrme environments, and any other phobes and fears that all dogs/any dog can experience. Thing is I use P+ succesfully in many of the cases along with incentive based approaches. I also do not teach dogs not to have fear but hopefully how to control some of the more critical behavior aspects presented by that fear which can and often does incorporate the usage of P+. To which I have documented over the years for constant review/study and referal in my never ending research in understanding what may work to resolve any particular issue.






.[/QUOTE] 
When I speak of a dog that wants to work and is willing to take risks I speak of a dog that does not fear punishment in TRAINING and so is willing to try to new things, not one who suddenly decides to go off and do something inappropriate while you are out and about on your walks. Training is meant to be transferred into real life, but the actual training does not START there, it starts in low distraction, low pressure situations and is gradually proofed for higher distractions etc. .[/QUOTE]


A difference we have is that I find value in fearing punishment especially when other approaches are not working according to specific circumstances. For me it is a realistic part of understanding and utilizing nature. I too start conditioning at the lowest distraction level possible so as to be as clear and communicative as possible in teaching the desired or undesired behavior/s. I then add increasingly intense often xxxxx extreme distrations/influences that are needed in dealing with real life and often times things that most dogs might not need to deal with in real life.. I do extreme proofing also as for me that is the measure of a standard.

I probably again should point out that I use a mixture of quads but for the purpose of my point is that I do use P+ in these circumstances at some point in the process.


.[/QUOTE]
As for training with punishment exclusively...I don't believe anyone (or at least a very small number) use P+ all the time, the same way I don't believe people who ONLY use R+ exist in a large number. Effective use of the quads almost always includes at least two of the four. My preference is not to use R- nor P+. I make liberal use of R+ and of P- but am not totally averse to using an occasional aversive if absolutely necessary (squirt bottle, verbal reprimand). 

When it comes to conditioned reinforcers..some dogs find R- and P+ to be a conditioned reinforcer...phew I didn't get in trouble, that makes me happy sort of thing. But in my mind (IMHO) working to avoid punishment is not what I want my dog and the dogs I work with to do. I want them to work to GAIN something. Same way I don't work to avoid bad things, I work to gain good things. This is important to me from a philosophical point of view and so it is in my life. 

I guess I'm a glass half full kind of girl..and I work hard to maintain that. It ain't all wine and roses, but when it's not, that half a glass helps me through.[/QUOTE]

We then are the same in some ways and different in others... I like using that boring word *DEPENDS*.

For me and what I do I with the many dogs/people that I deal with yearly is that I have learned that what I WANT,NEED, or DESIRE and how to achieve it.... often just...DEPENDS..


revised
I also like that recent new age addage that maybe we should just agree to disagree and that does not mean that we cannot sit down somewhere and have a beer, wine, or a stiffer drink.. Just depends on what would work for me/us at the moment I guess. In terms of training methods and approaches I like to think of myself as a DEPENDS on whats in the glass and how much for my current situation kind of girl LOL!

IS that how it goes?

Have a good one


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

> For me allowing for P+ in emergencies and for issues that concern dog or human safety covers a huge spectrum of everyday situations. You used a modifier that confuses me
> ..which is ..."you do what you have to do in that moment to mitigate the circumstance"
> 
> So I take it that you mean you only feel it appropriate to use P+ exclusively as a reactive response under such condtions and not for/within a training program? May I ask if this P+ acts as a true correction to condition/teach the/a dog not to behave in a particular manner again? Or used simply as a punisher that could result in continual administration under such condtions time and again? To be more clear... not to act as a true correction?


Yes. It is management I mean, more so than punishment for the sake of learning a behaviour or consequence. For example: Say I am walking a leash reactive dog and get suprised by a large off leash dog around a corner and the dog I am walking goes ballistic, he is over threshold and dangerously so and I need to both keep him away from the other dog AND prevent him from transferring his aggression to me. In this case I MAY have to physically restrain him, move him behind me with force etc. In an ideal world this dog would be worked with under threshold for him to learn better coping skills etc but in full fear/reactive mode simply punishing his behaviour is not a learning moment. He is fully in rear brain mode, kill or be killed, not consciously making a decision to misbehave. Working under threshold is a learning moment...over threshold is not. I will do whatever is necessary in that moment to keep injury to a minimum for all three participants. Things happen in life that we cannot always anticipate, but by working with the dog under threshold as much as possible and gradually decreasing that threshold distance, eventually that "thing" won't need to be such a large incident and physical management should no longer be necessary. 




> To illustrate our different opinions I too/also work with fearful dogs across a wide range of disciplines to include training dogs to work (safely and appropriately) around dangerous livestock,rescue work, rehab of extreme cases, training of dogs around very dangerous situations in various extrme environments, and any other phobes and fears that all dogs/any dog can experience. Thing is I use P+ succesfully in many of the cases along with incentive based approaches. *I also do not teach dogs not to have fear but hopefully how to control some of the more critical behavior aspects presented by that fear which can and often does incorporate the usage of P+. *To which I have documented over the years for constant review/study and referal in my never ending research in understanding what may work to resolve any particular issue.


I wholly agree with using P+ in a life threatening situation..say rattlesnake training or using a rake/shepherd's crook in teaching herding. But I do not use if for everyday training, it is simply my choice to work on the proofing without it. As for the bolded part of the above quote, I think that working to reduce the fear to a level where the dog is able to learn through CC, R+ and teaching better responses once you've reached an OC level through R+ as well is a less stressful (for all parties) way to deal with it. But again, that is my choice, if you have success then that is what counts in the end...I guess my idea is that I don't want the OWNERS to be using punishment because it is so easy for THEM to mess it up. If I don't want the owners using it, I should be leading by example. 




> We then are the same in some ways and different in others... I like using that boring word *DEPENDS*.
> 
> For me and what I do I with the many dogs/people that I deal with yearly is that I have learned that what I WANT,NEED, or DESIRE and how to achieve it.... often just...DEPENDS..
> 
> ...


Have a good one[/QUOTE]

Sounds good to me. 
*raises a glass*

Here's to good debate.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Yes. It is management


 But again, that is my choice, if you have success then that is what counts in the end...I guess my idea is that I don't want the OWNERS to be using punishment because it is so easy for THEM to mess it up. If I don't want the owners using it, I should be leading by example. 


Have a good one[/QUOTE]

Sounds good to me. 
*raises a glass*

Here's to good debate.[/QUOTE]

I understand and thank you for the explaination.

CHEERS TO YOU


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

sparkle, that last post was too short edit it LOL


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

jiml said:


> sparkle, that last post was too short edit it LOL




I understand


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

sparkle said:


> Cesar/Victoria may be good at some things but I would suggest/put my money on asking a/some experienced sheep/herding/stock dog trainers on how to get top notch off leash behaviors and control on sheep herding breeds. They do it in no time and under all of the drive/distraction issues


Yes I would love to have my dog herding trained. I don't know if I could manage a weekly trip out to do it though for the months it would take, and keep up with it for her lifetime.

I'm beginning to think my dog would be happiest and most fulfilled as a working stock dog on a ranch. She would absolutely live for it I think.

I think I have found a solution that may work for me though. I had her out this morning and the squirrels were everywhere.

There were two that were just ignoring her about 30 feet away, going about their acorn burying. I had her sit, took a few leash jangles, than I got her to down, with repeated small pokes on the shoulder.

Seems a repeated very light poke, about one every second, keeps a little part of her brain open for listening, and she ever so slowly will lay down never breaking focus on the squirrels.

Then I tried some chicken, no dice, so I just kneeled down beside her, and sat there. And waited, and waited, and waited, and after some time had passed, her excitement level started falling off enough I could get her to take a piece of chicken. Then 3-4 more minutes I got her to look away from them for a piece of it.

Then after she actually got her senses back a little I gave her my "lets go" which is her command to "come off" whatever she is distracted by and move on, and she did!

So now I think I'll be looking for these very high drive moments, get her in a down which is a very hard self control exercise for her and repeating having her down and just watch however long it takes until her level comes down while she's maintaining self control. The time required is tough because I do have to get to work in the morning at some point.

This will be my Saturday mornings for the foreseeable future though. I may actually be able to desensitize her over time this way.

Then maybe move on to more advanced techniques and premack etc.

I tried that once, and though she did understand that she looked at me and asked to go chase, actually letting her go when she looked back for my ok turned out to be a disaster. Set me back 6 months.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

TxRider said:


> Yes I would love to have my dog herding trained. I don't know if I could manage a weekly trip out to do it though for the months it would take, and keep up with it for her lifetime.
> 
> .



I was referring to the ability/skills for those (the good ones) types of trainers to teach/train/condition the dog NOT to go after/chase that which they seek to engage. This issue of chasing must be taken care of before the real herding training can start to get off the ground. When myself and others train a herding dog this is done in the first session or two ( actually in most cases before ever introducing the dog to livestock in a less distracted/more controlled environment)..... so my reference/point would not require but a training session or 2 to address your specific issue in most cases and actually no further lessons needed. But then again who needs herding lessons to solve this problem when thier are other distractions to use for proofing in any given method.

It sounds like you are on the road to progress...good luck!


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

sparkle said:


> I was referring to the ability/skills for those (the good ones) types of trainers to teach/train/condition the dog NOT to go after/chase that which they seek to engage. This issue of chasing must be taken care of before the real herding training can start to get off the ground. When myself and others train a herding dog this is done in the first session or two ( actually in most cases before ever introducing the dog to livestock in a less distracted/more controlled environment)..... so my reference/point would not require but a training session or 2 to address your specific issue in most cases and actually no further lessons needed. But then again who needs herding lessons to solve this problem when thier are other distractions to use for proofing in any given method.
> 
> It sounds like you are on the road to progress...good luck!


I know what you were referring to, I didn't think that permanent results could be had in a session or two though.

Not ever having seen a herding trainer work first hand I have no idea how they do it. Unfortunately I have no control over the object of focus, if I did it might be a lot easier.

I've been trying to work up to a down under drive, as I have been led to understand that a good stop/down and recall is expected for a herding instinct trial. There are a couple of places within an hour that offer it, but it seems like there's more people trying to get their dogs trained then available trainers.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

TxRider said:


> I know what you were referring to, I didn't think that permanent results could be had in a session or two though.
> 
> Not ever having seen a herding trainer work first hand I have no idea how they do it. Unfortunately I have no control over the object of focus, if I did it might be a lot easier.
> 
> I've been trying to work up to a down under drive, as I have been led to understand that a good stop/down and recall is expected for a herding instinct trial. There are a couple of places within an hour that offer it, but it seems like there's more people trying to get their dogs trained then available trainers.


Well then you are missing out on a lot of resolution possibilities.
We/others do ( who use such methods/tools) this type of conditioning everyday .

However and I do not mean to preach to the choir... NOTHING in life is permanent except death in such terms from what I know of or have been told/experienced and behavior does require maintenance which is a important factor that is highly misunderstood and miscommunicated by a far too great number of people in dealing with dogs IMHO.

Another important thing to consider is that not all *herding instructors* have the same skills  so please do not just pick/reference just any herding instructor (kinda is same for about everything else too) which is why I was thoughtful in the use of the modifier that I included in that statement. 

Actually the one day work shops and training sessions I have experienced just use what ever is available and lots of different distractions/enticements to resolve the prey drive/chasing issue and it is not nec to seek the skills of a "GOOD" herding instructor.

Fundamently for me it is simply a matter (using a host of processes available that gets results hopefully quickly) to teach/train/condition a dog to learn a high standard/respect to a *LEAVE IT * command on leash/tight control which can further develop the dogs general understanding about the rules in chasing/engaging such things while off leash which of course requires a few more skillsets (recall or not) in the conditioning/proofing process for a high standard.

Again so to cover the extremes each issue and how to resolve it just DEPENDS on ones specific situation and circumstances.

On the assumption of a herding REQUIRING or having been taught a down ...that is a very politically charged hot potatoe in the herding world. Many non Border Collie herding folks with breeds that do not do well with this position disagree and a stand/stop is the only way to go...along with the arguements that a herding dog should never or rarely work from a downed position for a host of reasons to which depending the issue differnet people agree with and disagree with ..Anyways a different political topic of perspective for the herding folks.

Herding dog trainers can be hard to find locally but depending on how far one can travel many trainers (the good ones also) seem to have quite a bit of openings for what ever reasons which can also/often be a matter of the methods/tools/ and perspectives they have. Again sounds just like finding/dealing with the other kinds of trainers.

I hate being a DEPENDS kinda girl. very stressful.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

sparkle said:


> Well then you are missing out on a lot of resolution possibilities.
> We/others do ( who use such methods/tools) this type of conditioning everyday. NOTHING in life is permanent except death from what I know or have been told. Another important thing to consider is that not all *herding instructors* have the same skills  so please do not just pick/reference just any herding instructor (kinda is same for about everything else too) which is why I was thoughtful in the use of the modifier that I included in that statement.
> 
> Actually the one day work shops and training sessions I have experienced just use what ever is available and lots of different ones to resolve the prey drive/chasing issue and it is not nec to seek the skills of a "GOOD" herding instructor.
> ...


She seems to have a modicum of respect for the leash anyway, I can even drop the leash which usually gets her to turn to look at me with a "really? I can go chase them?" look. When I tried it I actually had to give her release word 2-3 times before she bolted after them the first time. The result was her drive went through the roof after that though, and she wanted the chase again on every one she saw.

She won't lunge and really pull on the leash unless one runs within ten feet of her now. But she's in la-la land whenever one is in sight at any range as far as asking her to do anything. She's a pretty soft dog as far as correction goes when she's not buried in prey drive.

She does a standing stop or slow much better than a down or sit. She knows what stop means, she just has a hard time with self control doing it.

I'm thinking a herding trainer could use her stop command, especially if a crook or something was enforcing it.

I was thinking that A) herding training might get her better at learning self control and listening to instruction, as well as training new instructions and b) Part of me really would like to see if she could be a good working dog, but I don't know if I could find time/resources to take it that far or keep at it throughout her life. Though I may be in a position to have some stock in a few years.

This is the place i was thinking about calling...

http://www.glenrosefarms.com/

I was thinking of making some vids of her behavior, to better show it, but I really would need to buy a minicam for that.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

TxRider said:


> She seems to have a modicum of respect for the leash anyway, I can even drop the leash which usually gets her to turn to look at me with a "really? I can go chase them?" look. When I tried it I actually had to give her release word 2-3 times before she bolted after them the first time. The result was her drive went through the roof after that though, and she wanted the chase again on every one she saw.
> 
> She won't lunge and really pull on the leash unless one runs within ten feet of her now. But she's in la-la land whenever one is in sight at any range as far as asking her to do anything. She's a pretty soft dog as far as correction goes when she's not buried in prey drive.
> 
> ...


Actually I have met Laura seveal times and she would be one of those "good" actually GREAT trainers I was referring to.

Without doing the quote/edit things honestly I sence a lot of what IMHO are contridictions in your statements when stepping back and taking a general look at them when/in referencing consistancy to a standard. I also think my point about seeking a "GOOD" herding dog trainer seems to have taken a wrong turn also.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

sparkle said:


> Without doing the quote/edit things honestly I sence a lot of what IMHO are contridictions in your statements when stepping back and taking a general look at them when/in referencing consistancy to a standard. I also think my point about seeking a "GOOD" herding dog trainer seems to have taken a wrong turn also.


Not surprising, I'm probably not being very clear at all.

And I would have no clue how to find a good herding dog trainer, or know one if I saw one.

I'm struggling to know what standards actually are in reference to herding, what is expected of me and my dog before I try to have her instinct tested, or even if I should do it at all or what I could gain from it. I'm pretty confused on the whole thing and seeking information/opinion from people with experience.


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