# The Fearful Dog Thread II



## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

So, the old Fearful Dog Thread has pretty much died, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing left to talk about!

This thread, like the last, can serve as a gathering place for those who have fearful dogs and those who have knowledge of them to discuss management and rehabilitation strategies and tell stories about successes and failures.

Old members, where are your fearful dogs now? How are Poca, Wally, Jonas, etc. all doing? Are there still things you're working on? What methods are you using?

Newcomers, do you have a fearful dog? What kinds of problems are you having? Have you found people or resources that have helped you?


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Thanks for reviving this, MM. After last Saturday's visit to the vet I need some fresh ideas. I literally had to pick Poca up and carry her inside; once inside she totally shut down. I'm starting to wonder if a little flooding might be called for to speed things up. When I first started taking her to her current daycare, she balked at going in the front door. The door is made of glass and for whatever reason, she decided long ago she doesn't like glass doors. I had to pull her in to get her inside the first couple of times. I think forcing it and then her subsequent learning that, hey! There's DOGS in there! helped her get over it. But it was not fun and I wouldn't have forced it if I had had any choice.

On a bright note, she now tolerates people coming over pretty well. She still barks at strangers on our property but she's definitely better. She took hot dog from a 20 year old male she had never seen before at my sister's house last weekend. And only huffed at him a little when he moved from one room to the next. She actually approached him to get a treat. I've been doing the touch game with her a lot so she now goes up to people kind of randomly and touches their hands if she can reach them - it's hysterical. Little pooker.

How's Marge doing lately? Any progress around the neighborhood?


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I guess Nia's fear of other dogs isn't as bad as some of the issues you guys have. She actually LOVES dogs so much and gets so excited to see new dogs but she's scared at the same time so she's barking and lunging to run to them. 

Counter conditioning is working to some extent. Except in the last week she's had like 3 bad experiences from other dogs on flexis and out of control, or off leash dogs. They just chased her like she's a little rabbit or something and she was absolutely terrified. 

They were all actually playing with her but she HATES dogs that chase her and poke her and nudge her. Makes her snarl and growl at them. Her reactive tendencies are worse this week than last week because of the bad week we've had but we'll keep working on it.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Cash is pretty confident around everyone, except some men
But he hates the vet, loves the office, the nurses, etc
He just is super terrified of the vet 
No amount of treats will make him go near her, he even growled a little last time we were there 

Any advice of how to get him to like her?
He is going to be big and I can't have him growling at the vet

Also Jemma is scared of bathes, she doesn't just not like them but she is terrified
She hates water
But bates are terrifying for her

I know she was forced into bathes before we got her 
I try not to force her but she is white and needs them sometimes 

She won't focus on anything at all, just going near any water freaks her out

I tried stopping saying 'bath time'
I tried treats
I tried not using the bath, using the tub or a bucket etc
I tried associating her with the bath without water in it (treats etc), she didn't mind so much but as soon as there is water she runs away

I have run out of ideas for these two little problems I have

I know my problems are nothing compared with what you go through with your dogs, but I still hope you can help


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Re: Wally

I don't know if I can even consider him fearful anymore. The stuff that used to scare him doesn't any more. Even dogs, he's now wanting to meet and play with (in fact, it's swung in the other direction of almost being TOO eager to want to play/meet). He's good with kids now, sniffing them (with mix reactions from the kids lol) and generally letting them get close and petting him. Some of them even know him by name. 

About the only fear left is objects over his head. He'll try to crouch down and gets nervous in the back legs (some shaking) but once it's at about eye level, he'll try to paw it and nose touch it.

So, basically, he's doing very well and has basically turned into another dog in terms of personality.

Even when something startles him, he bounces back quickly.

He still isn't keen on going to get groomed and probably not the vet either. Not sure that's so much "fear" as "I don't like that place!"


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Foxthegoldfish - Vet scaredness and bathtime scaredness are two things we deal with here. 

The vet scaredness improved a little bit on its own. We switched from a male vet to a female vet, so that helped a lot. Honestly, Marge will always be afraid at the vet, and being fearful in that situation doesn't seem to have really affected her any where else. Sometimes, if we go to a new building, she'll initially be like "WTF?" but once she realizes it's not the vet (or the groomer) she's generally fine.

Winnie, I think that short, frequent visits to the vet might work, even if you do have to push her a little bit in the beginning. I remember you doing something like this with peanut butter a long time ago. 

Regarding water and baths.. we went really slow with water, first teaching her that it's OK to stick your feet in shallow puddles and streams. Foxthegoldfish, if you have somewhere like this where you can take her to and toss some cookies in to the water for her to fish out, that could help you. Doing that has made Marge comfortable enough to wade in ponds and lakes, but she still doesn't like the ocean and no, it didn't make her more comfortable with baths, either. Perhaps, if things are really bad with baths, you can pick up some kind of calming supplement (like Rescue Remedy or DAP) and use it when she needs a bath to see if there is any effect.

We've kind of given up on making Marge feel better about baths.. we used to feed her her entire dinner while she was in the tub, but this time, I just picked all 40# of her up and brought her in to the groomer's that way. We use their facilities and bathe her ourself. Doing it this way (picking her up and going right in) actually made things a little better as it didn't leave as much room for her to really think about it. No, it's not the counterconditioning/desensitization way to do it, but sometimes there just isn't time for it. I wouldn't do things that way with something that wasn't necessary, but baths are kind of a must in my house so it will have to do...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Marge is doing very well otherwise, I'd say.  I'm trying to keep up with walks, and so far the weather has been cooperative in helping us transition to the warmer weather. Her sound fears have definitely decreased, I'm still using treats any time she alerts to a sound and it helps her to recover faster.

Agility trials have become her favorite environment. She gets extremely excited when my agility gear comes out and she knows we're going. VERY good in terms of people/dogs/noise at trials. Wasn't even afraid when she was in the ring with a male judge..

In some ways, I think I've unknowingly created a little agility addict dog. She doesn't seem nearly as thrilled as she used to be about going to parks and stuff like that. But, she is still happy and not as afraid as she used to be.

The summer will prove to be tough, I'm sure.. we've stopped walking at night (which helped us a lot over the winter in terms of getting Marge used to walking around the neighborhood) in anticipation of fireworks, and have chosen our walking times carefully. Just gotta get through two months of hell (July and August) and we should be okay...


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Michiyo, I totally hear you about bad experiences. Do you have any reactive dog classes in your area? Under the right trainer, you can make a lot of progress. If not, a regular beginner obedience class could be good just to get her in the proximity of other dogs in a controlled environment. I know how hard it is to find suitable playmates. 

KB, glad to hear about Wally. He really has improved in leaps and bounds, hasn't he?

I think I'm on my way to tackling the issues of another fearful dog - I just became an assistant teacher with my club in a non-competitive agility class. Well, there's one really shy girl who has a lot of object and sound fears. She will not do the tunnel. So, I'm employing cookies and Pavlov and helping her get over her fear. She went 3/4 of the way in to the tunnel today with me. We ended on a high note and she was still interested in the tunnel when we were done. Her biggest problem, honestly, is that her owner does not like to use a lot of treats.. the bag of treats she had with her was tiny  so I explained that more is better.. the doggy needs an incentive to do this stuff. This dog is built for agility. Her fears are much more extensive than Marge's so I'm not sure if she can ever go on to competition agility, but even getting her comfortable in this class would be great. She likes to jump. Next week, we're hopefully going to introduce the clicker to see if that can help her.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

I think I missed the Fearful Dog thread I 

There were two things I was working on with Ilya and that was being approached by people and dogs. We visited the park a lot and it seems to have lessen his stress of being approached as I got him to focus on me first and asking him to sit or lay down. Just in the last month, two incidences happend where he was approached very quickly. A neighborhood kid ran up to pet the cool looking wolf before I could ask him to walk or get Ilya's attention. He let the little boy pet him, but he ignored the boy and focused on finding a squirrel. In the past, he would give a whine growl and somewhat stiffen up. The second incident involved an unleashed husky running up to him he has never met before. I'm kinda glad it was a husky because Ilya tends to want to play husky play with others right away and it looks like he's stalking with his tail wagging or he will growl whine at dogs his size or bigger. Most other dogs tend to look confused, but his husky friends will get into a stalking like play with him quickly. It seemed to go well as they did their doggy greetings of sniffing and smelling... and the owner of the unleashed husky came quickly to retrieve his dog and we made new friends.

We need to go to the vet this week because Ilya may have another ear infection and one of his nails cracked near the quick. The last time we were at the vet, ACE didn't work very well, he was much calmer but still wouldn't allow the vet to look at his ear or trim his paws and he completely lost it for a few minutes. His new vet wants to anesthesize him for the next visit and I'm wondering if it is the right thing for an ear infection. It seems extreme. Maybe some pain medication and another type of sedative would work better? Right now, he will tolerate the vet's office as long as the vet keeps his hands to himself. I'm also worried about whether or not Ilya will start associating the muzzle with negative things. I haven't introduced one at home and thought maybe I should so he will feel like it's one of his other things like his leash or harness.


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## bettyw7679 (May 18, 2010)

Hi !
I've just visited this forum. Happy to get acquainted with you. Thanks.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

It's been 7 months now for Kaya.

She is now at the point where she will actually approach another dog or stranger, walk out from me to meet them but very cautiously less so with people than dogs. She still starts up fight or flight if a dog is too animated and pushes into her space.

She has started to initiate play with 3 different strange dogs, but not actually played. She still gets stressed and sticks to my leg if 4-5 loose dogs are running around and she starts feeling surrounded.

She's doing much better with strange people, even kids, but if the kids move around too much like jumping and making noise she starts reacting and barking at them and slipping into fear aggression.

I still can only barely get her to play with me, she doesn't have the confidence to tug anything yet, but I see a glimmer of desire to.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Cracker has improved in many ways, but slipped in others. I'm not sure if this is just once we peeled back a layer we found another one that was simply "lumped" into a different fear.

Her SA is much improved (meaning I can now leave her for up to an hour without excessive vocalization and she has not urinated or chewed the door frame in about six months.)
Her "new" fear is peo
ple appearing suddenly and men with chuckit's or sticks. I'm sure it's not new really, but since before it was MOST men with or without, I think it's now a case of most men are okay, but men with objects is a sticking point. She is highly operant at these times so I'm sure with some OB work and CC we'll pretty much get over this hump. 

I've started bringing a chuck it with me to the park (I prefer keeping my throwing arm in shape by not using one, but I think it may help her to become familiar to it).

Funny story: I created a behaviour chain accidentally with her (which is how I know she is now operant in these conditions). When a person appeared suddenly her behaviour was to run toward them, BARK and then back off. I was trying to catch her before the bark but didn't always manage, so I would call her "come" and reward her. Oops. Suddenly I had a dog that would run up to a person (any person), BARK and then run back to me and sit in front of me looking for her reward!!

See, even experienced trainers can mess it up....lol

So I started back with the clicker, would watch OBSESSIVELY for signs of other people, call her BEFORE they appeared, have her sit and then play 'look at that'. The behaviour chain is lessening and when it does happen, I instead go get her and leash her and then play 'Look at that" so that the leashing is the negative punishment for the run up and bark and the rewards come AFTER she is playing LAT.

As for the poster regarding fear of the vet...I worry about using sedatives in these environs. First because sedation does not reduce the aversion to the vet and secondly because sedation can REDUCE inhibitions..which means a dog that may not BITE without, may bite while sedated. 

I highly recommend regular visits to say HI using a very high value reinforcer, and if possible having the vet herself deliver it, not talking or handling the dog, just give the reinforcer and leave. I would also start conditioning the muzzle at home and out and about for very short periods. You don't want the muzzle to become a predictor of the vet visit, but a part of everyday life that involves very good things. This will help reduce the stress on both the dog's part AND the vet's.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> KB, glad to hear about Wally. He really has improved in leaps and bounds, hasn't he?


He has and it would be baffling if it wasn't so enjoyable  

It's like one day he just decided he wouldn't be afraid anymore. The objects I can see because we worked on those quite a bit (lots of opportunities) but with dogs I'm more surprised because usually this kind of behavior mod takes more repetitions and exposure, but we don't always see dogs and I don't always have the clicker/treats (I know, BAD OWNER, BAD! LOL) 

Probably a combination of a lot of factors.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm newer around here, and never saw the 1st thread.

Jackson is not what I'd consider a 'fearful' dog per say. What I mean is he doesn't have any major issues that need worked on. He's a really good dog and I think I've been really lucky or either been a really good trainer. We can walk in any public place (park, store, neighborhood) and he never barks, lunges, or is reactive to anyone, or any dog. We can walk by fences of barking dogs and he doesn't care, he maybe sniffs the air a bit but that's it. He's a really laidback dog and has no major behavorial issues. 

My only thing is he's very shy around strangers. I got him at 9 weeks old and he's always been socialized so I don't know where it stemmed from. He loves every dog he meets and would prefer to be in the company of other canines than humans. When I say shy of strangers, I mean if one bends down to pet him or anything, he usually backs away a bit, never barks, growls, or aggressive in any way. He just doesn't really like attention to himself. Men are more of a problem than women. Family and close friends, even if he only sees them once a month or less, he will love forever. He greets them sooo happily and just loves them to pieces. My siblings are a lot younger than me ( 3 years old and 6 years old) and he just loves them. The 3 year old can hug him, be in face, take his bone, be near his food, he could care less. ANYWAYS my point is it's just a stranger issue, after he meets you 3-4times he's usually happy to see you.

I wanted to post about how excited I was.... my stepdad had a horse racing Preakness day so they all met at our house to take a limo. We had probably 15 people coming into our doors and probably 10 of them Jackson had never once met... he did sooo good!!! He only barked like 2 -3 barks throughout all of these people entering our house without knocking or anything. He allowed people to actually pet him. Jackson voluntarily went up to a few people, smelled them, and even allowed himself to be pet! It was really a breakthrough for him and I was all excited inside but didn't want to let anyone else see lol without looking like a dork. I was just really proud of him because my work has been paying off. I take him to my cousins little league ball games and bring treats and ask the kids to give him treats if they want, and men there, etc, and I think it's really helping a ton!


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

Glad to see this thread revived.

In positive news, I have been working with Cupid for several weeks on his reactiveness to the new dog next door. He has occasional moments of barking and posturing, but most of the time he sees the new dog and looks at me. I reward him with treats and/or affection. Good boy! I think it helps that the other dog is very mellow. The first time my dogs saw her, they tore down the stairs and went right to the chain link fence and started barking. Abby, my neighbor’s dog, just tilted her head as if to ask, “What’s the big deal?” Now he rarely barks at her at all.

On the minus side, he is up and down about being groomed. Sometimes he tolerates it OK, other times he shrieks and tries to get away. I took him to the vet to make sure there wasn't a physical issue--he is particularly sensitive about his front legs--and was able to rule that out. So I've got some work to do there.

Cupid also completed a class for shy dogs earlier this year. It might have helped me more than it helped him. LOL. Gave me a lot of ideas for things I can do to work on Cue's fear.


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## QuidditchGirl (Apr 9, 2010)

Both of my dogs have fear issues.

Scout is fearful of people she doesn't know. If anyone approaches her to pet her, she runs behind me and avoids them at all costs. She's been through 14 weeks of obedience training, and it was only the last 3-4 weeks that she finally got brave enough to take a treat from our trainer. I feel like the training she did really helped her with her fear issues and I'm planning on starting agility with her soon to keep her on that confidence building.

Sirius is fearful of pretty much everything. He's 5 months old and went from shelter to shelter to foster with very little socialization to people or life experiences. He'd never even seen stairs before we brought him home a week and a half ago - our front steps wigged him out. He tries to run away from anything that's new to him. He freaked out at the mailbox a few days ago.  I have him set to start obedience classes tomorrow night. I've been trying to get him out to see the world as much as possible.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I have to admit I haven't posted because Jonas is doing well. Outside of the house he will seek attention from strangers and we don't have any major issues. In fact, he sat for a friend earlier this week. Only set back I can think of recently was a little girl rode a bike straight at him and he barked at her. We had a guest for almost two weeks and other than the first night and some stress runny poop in the house, he was a-OK. 

Magpie is coming around. I don't know if I mentioned in the previous thread she has acted aggressively towards children. She was just fine with kids before that awful woman adopted her and she came back, so I'm not sure what would have gone on while she was there. But our neighbors have older children (8 and 10) who are very helpful in her progress and they have been able to pet her lately and she hasn't been growling at passing children.


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## BentletheYentle (Oct 6, 2008)

I think I somehow missed the first thread, but I will definitely be following this one! Bentley definitely has some issues...I've been working on them and he's getting much better but they are still there. 

He is extremely noise phobic. Its been very hard because he shuts down the second he hears something and will not respond to anything (he's normally SUPER food motivated). He also has the same response to flashing lights. School buses are probably the scariest thing in the world for him because they are loud and have those strobe lights on top. I live in an apt complex and the building across from ours has a broken motion light that flickers on and off all the time. It freaks him out every time I take him out at night. I've tried taking him out with a spoon covered in peanut butter and letting him lick it and praising him when I know the light will go off, but he always has the same response.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!



ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Magpie is coming around. I don't know if I mentioned in the previous thread she has acted aggressively towards children. She was just fine with kids before that awful woman adopted her and she came back, so I'm not sure what would have gone on while she was there. But our neighbors have older children (8 and 10) who are very helpful in her progress and they have been able to pet her lately and she hasn't been growling at passing children.


Can I ask how you've been working with Magpie with the children? Bentley is fear aggressive with children (body language is very fearful until they get near, growls when they get too close). I have some older neighbor kids that would be great at helping me but I have never done anything because I wasn't sure the right plan of action. 

Thanks in advance!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

BentletheYentle said:


> Can I ask how you've been working with Magpie with the children? Bentley is fear aggressive with children (body language is very fearful until they get near, growls when they get too close). I have some older neighbor kids that would be great at helping me but I have never done anything because I wasn't sure the right plan of action.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


Very VERY carefully and slowly. She is a failed foster who was adopted out once and previous to that she was just fine with children- even my boyfriend's niece and nephew who are loud and horrendous. We discovered she was NOT when she lunged at a four year old. Then any kid in the vicinity she snarled at even from a distance. Rushing her could have devastating results- her fear gets worse, or worst case scenario she bites a child and is PTS. 

We have a pre-school kitty corner to us and a high school down the road. When the kids get out for school we sit in the front yard and she is treated and praised for every good response- but the kids are never closer than across the street. We explained to our neighbors when we met them that their kids could not pet her and we were not trying to be rude when crossing the street, and since they love dogs they began helping us. Treats were tossed from a good 20 feet away to her and they made no sound or move to pet her. Basically we have kept our distance and literally just praised and treated the hell out of her every time she saw a child and made no fearful movement or aggressed. 

A big help for her was actually our Elkhound. The neighbors kids would love on him and treat him and she responded very positively to that. Her first close interaction I just asked them to not move or look at her and she sniffed all around them and came back to me and she was treated again. We had a million more interactions like that and finally she approached them confidently and accepted petting and love. For now we aren't willy nilly letting every child in the neighborhood pet her, but if they ask I tell them she is scared and they can toss her a treat. I'm largely holding back because of the above reasons, but she stands passively around kids now and has stopped reacting negatively towards them. 

I don't know if I'll trust children to pet her freely one day, but the baby steps have been going very well. She's a very thin skinned girl and negative set backs can set her back a lot. She initially feared walks (she lived in a garage her whole life) and even a bad attempt at putting her harness on sent her hiding in the bedroom for the day.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Argh, looks like Kaya is developing an eating phobia.

Or rather an eating phobia when Hope is anywhere within sight.

I guess I should have watched closer. Hope has been insatiable for a couple of weeks on prednisone, eating bugs, anything even her own feces if left to.

I caught her doing her dominant tail up head up hackles raised posture to Kaya in the kitchen, presumably to intimidate her away from her food, and stopped her, but now Kaya won't eat with Hope anywhere in the kitchen or even in the living room. I fill her bowl and ears go flat, tail goes down and she basically goes into some kind of avoidance and gets visibly worried about Hope.

I had to sit on the floor with her beside her bowl so she would eat tonight. This sucks.

Hope just finished with the prednisone so hopefully this will fade, but Kaya is looking at Hope with flight/fight in her eyes and I am not happy about it, or very sure how to approach it.


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## BentletheYentle (Oct 6, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I don't know if I'll trust children to pet her freely one day, but the baby steps have been going very well.


I feel like this about Bentley, but I would just like to have him be able to handle (polite) children around him. My neighbor kids have never really been around dogs before, but I've been talking to them and teaching them the appropriate ways to approach and pet dogs and I think that they would be able to handle my directions in helping me with Bentley. Thank you for the advice!


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

BentletheYentle said:


> I feel like this about Bentley, but I would just like to have him be able to handle (polite) children around him. My neighbor kids have never really been around dogs before, but I've been talking to them and teaching them the appropriate ways to approach and pet dogs and I think that they would be able to handle my directions in helping me with Bentley. Thank you for the advice!


It's just something to be aware of even after you feel you've got the behavior in check. I think she would be able to be easily pet by polite children, but I will not take an eye off her so I can catch any signs she's uncomfortable. Good luck!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

TX, 
I think separating them for feeding would be best (at least for now). Kaya is a fearful girl and Hope is not herself (both from the pred and the injury/issue) it would be wise and easier on everyone, including yourself if you managed this time through keeping them apart unti you think things are improved. Better safe than sorry.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

BentletheYentle said:


> Can I ask how you've been working with Magpie with the children? Bentley is fear aggressive with children (body language is very fearful until they get near, growls when they get too close). I have some older neighbor kids that would be great at helping me but I have never done anything because I wasn't sure the right plan of action.
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I don't let kids younger than about 10-12 pet Kaya, and only calmly and under very direct supervision, meaning me holding a leash. The more they pet her and have her sit and down and shake hands and reward her etc. the better she gets. She can't both be scared and obsess over it, and be doing a sit and shake hands and eating etc. at the same time.

I also go to an outdoor training class that people bring kids to who play at a distance from the class while parents are doing dog training.

I also go to the local parks and have little picnics with her, giving her treats and having a good time around the edges of kids soccer fields, around the playground equipment (slides jungle jims etc) and just sit and watch with them yelling and running an jumping etc. at the closest distance she can comfy with just to get her desensitized to the movement and sound, without ever a kid approaching.

Her triggers seem to be the quick and often unpredictable movements and sounds of kids though, another dog might be different.

It is working, dunno if she'll ever be totally kid safe though.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

QuidditchGirl said:


> Both of my dogs have fear issues.
> 
> Scout is fearful of people she doesn't know. If anyone approaches her to pet her, she runs behind me and avoids them at all costs. She's been through 14 weeks of obedience training, and it was only the last 3-4 weeks that she finally got brave enough to take a treat from our trainer. I feel like the training she did really helped her with her fear issues and I'm planning on starting agility with her soon to keep her on that confidence building.


Agility training for fearful dogs is something that a lot of people try. I think it's very good for dogs who are scared of people, but the class environment/pace is not good for object-phobic dogs. So, if people is your biggest issue with Scout, you might find that the agility environment will help you a lot.. I find that it becomes VERY predictable to the dog what is going to happen.



> Sirius is fearful of pretty much everything. He's 5 months old and went from shelter to shelter to foster with very little socialization to people or life experiences. He'd never even seen stairs before we brought him home a week and a half ago - our front steps wigged him out. He tries to run away from anything that's new to him. He freaked out at the mailbox a few days ago.  I have him set to start obedience classes tomorrow night. I've been trying to get him out to see the world as much as possible.


At 5 months, it will be interesting to see how he bounces back. He may just be young enough that he can shed the majority of his fear issues if things are handled properly. Good luck!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

QuidditchGirl said:


> Sirius is fearful of pretty much everything. He's 5 months old and went from shelter to shelter to foster with very little socialization to people or life experiences. He'd never even seen stairs before we brought him home a week and a half ago - our front steps wigged him out. He tries to run away from anything that's new to him. He freaked out at the mailbox a few days ago.  I have him set to start obedience classes tomorrow night. I've been trying to get him out to see the world as much as possible.




I know that feeling. Wally was like that and over a year old. About the only thing he had on Sirius is that he would walk up the front steps. He wouldn't go up/down stairs in the house at first until I got tired of carrying him and said, you're going up these stairs. On your own. Period. LOL. Spent the day getting him to go up and down stairs. Over and over and over. (I tend to drill things into him even though it's I use rewards, it's still a lot of repetitions).

As far as objects and such, play the Look-At-That game with everything. If he looks at something, mark and reward him. Do it when he first notices if you can, that way he's more likely to be under threshold and will take your reward. Also, don't be afraid to do it with certain objects. What I mean is sit near the mailbox and mark and reward him for looking at it. It might look silly, but you're helping chance his association. 

Consider teaching targeting as well. Targeting is good because it requires him to interact with objects and he gets rewarded for doing so. I think that more than anything else really started to break the ice for Wally. I believe it gave him a way to interact with "big scary object" (so he knew what to do and could focus on that instead of being scared) and it got him rewards which helps change the association (Object not scary, cuz I nose it, and I get foodz)


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## QuidditchGirl (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks for the ideas MissMutt and KBLover. They're much appreciated. I like the idea of the Look At That game, I'll definitely try it.

I just came back from a walk with Sirius and it was so miserable. He spent the whole time tugging, crossing in front of me, looking behind us like we were being chased, tail between his legs. I had treats but he wouldn't take them (they were high value - hunks of roast beef). This was in a nice quiet neighborhood too. <sigh> Obedience school starts tonight.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Have you tried any calming stuff for him? Body wraps, DAP, Rescue Remedy, etc. That might be a good place to start, and if they don't help, then you can try some nutraceutical supplements (Marge uses L-Theanine). These don't make the dog unafraid per se, but they calm the dog down enough so that learning can take place (ie shoving cookies in his face  )


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## QuidditchGirl (Apr 9, 2010)

MissMutt said:


> Have you tried any calming stuff for him? Body wraps, DAP, Rescue Remedy, etc. That might be a good place to start, and if they don't help, then you can try some nutraceutical supplements (Marge uses L-Theanine). These don't make the dog unafraid per se, but they calm the dog down enough so that learning can take place (ie shoving cookies in his face  )


No, but that's another really good idea, thank you! If he would calm down enough to actually take the treats, leash training would be a heckuva lot easier.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Cracker said:


> TX,
> I think separating them for feeding would be best (at least for now). Kaya is a fearful girl and Hope is not herself (both from the pred and the injury/issue) it would be wise and easier on everyone, including yourself if you managed this time through keeping them apart unti you think things are improved. Better safe than sorry.


Yeah fortunately she is now off the pred and getting back to normal as of yesterday.

They eat across the room from each other, 15-20 feet apart, and I always supervise but have started slacking off as they gotten better.

This incident was Kaya giving off guarding signals as she wasn't eating her food right away, and I think Hope started to call her on it before I noticed and stepped in.

I have decided to change over to giving them opportunity to eat what I give, and immediately putting it away if they don't, with me always present, and see if this will extinct itself. Hopefully it isn't something that has fundamentally changed their relationship.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

LOL So Jonas hasn't gotten better or worse with his DA, but the ONLY dogs he gets along with are bully breeds. For real. We have a couple Pits and Bulldogs in the neighborhood and they're the only dogs he doesn't go crazy over.


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## QuidditchGirl (Apr 9, 2010)

OK first night at dog school for Sirius was PAINFUL. 

I couldn't have picked a worse group of dogs for him to be with - barky bull terrier, barky aussie, CRAZY barky, snarly pit bull that had to be put behind a partition or else he got everyone else going, and one other mutt that was just very EXCITED to be there. 

I didn't even try training other than getting attention from him. He wanted to be one with the wall. I had to drag him out of there after class, tail between his legs. As soon as we get home, he's all happy and waggy and bouncy again. 

My trainer also suggested the "look at that" game. We'll give that some work tomorrow. I did get him some Pet-Ease (Petsmart didn't have Rescue Remedy but this looked similar.) 

I am wondering if he might do better if I bring Scout with us next week. She LOVES LOVES LOVES going to dog school. I could work with her and just have one of my kids hold onto him so he sees that she thinks dog school is a good place. He walks great when I walk them together...


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## BentletheYentle (Oct 6, 2008)

QuidditchGirl said:


> OK first night at dog school for Sirius was PAINFUL.
> 
> I couldn't have picked a worse group of dogs for him to be with - barky bull terrier, barky aussie, CRAZY barky, snarly pit bull that had to be put behind a partition or else he got everyone else going, and one other mutt that was just very EXCITED to be there.
> 
> ...


Maybe you could try a Thundershirt for him (thundershirt.com). If I remember right, they are $36, which isn't terrible. I got one for Bentley and its amazing what a difference it makes. It doesn't remove the fear, but it helps reduce anxiety so that he can concentrate on other things, i.e. learning. I've tried the Pet-Ease and it did nothing for Bentley but maybe you will have better luck!


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## QuidditchGirl (Apr 9, 2010)

BentletheYentle said:


> Maybe you could try a Thundershirt for him (thundershirt.com). If I remember right, they are $36, which isn't terrible. I got one for Bentley and its amazing what a difference it makes. It doesn't remove the fear, but it helps reduce anxiety so that he can concentrate on other things, i.e. learning. I've tried the Pet-Ease and it did nothing for Bentley but maybe you will have better luck!


Thank you, I like this idea, seems kind of like swaddling a baby. Sirius is a big boy but he's still just a puppy. I hate seeing him so terrified, that can't be a pleasant way to live. I'm off to check these out.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

QuidditchGirl said:


> OK first night at dog school for Sirius was PAINFUL.
> 
> I couldn't have picked a worse group of dogs for him to be with - barky bull terrier, barky aussie, CRAZY barky, snarly pit bull that had to be put behind a partition or else he got everyone else going, and one other mutt that was just very EXCITED to be there.
> 
> ...


Kaya was like that at first as well, and I think it did help to have Hope along.

She has gotten better over time, she still has issues with proximity. Our class has all the dogs doing a sit/stay on platforms and walking/heeling excercises mostly. Conditioning the dogs to distractions.

The platform is kind of a safe spot for her now, with other dogs outside her personal space, and exercises with them heeling through her her personal space.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

BentletheYentle said:


> Maybe you could try a Thundershirt for him (thundershirt.com). If I remember right, they are $36, which isn't terrible. I got one for Bentley and its amazing what a difference it makes. It doesn't remove the fear, but it helps reduce anxiety so that he can concentrate on other things, i.e. learning. I've tried the Pet-Ease and it did nothing for Bentley but maybe you will have better luck!



What an interesting concept (the Thundershrits)! I'm almost tempted to get one for Wally just to see how he takes to it.

Until then, I'm going to start squeezing him everyday.


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## QuidditchGirl (Apr 9, 2010)

KBLover said:


> What an interesting concept (the Thundershrits)! I'm almost tempted to get one for Wally just to see how he takes to it.
> 
> Until then, I'm going to start squeezing him everyday.


LOL, I actually looked at one of my baby swaddling cloths to see if it would work on Sirius tonight. He's about 30 lbs too big.  I ordered a Thundershirt.


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## foxthegoldfish (Apr 15, 2008)

Thanks for the advice re: baths and the vet

With Cash and the vet he wont take even the highest value treat from her, he loves the vet nurses but just not the vet
Ive been thinking about changing, maybe he reads that I don't really like her


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## BentletheYentle (Oct 6, 2008)

KBLover said:


> What an interesting concept (the Thundershrits)! I'm almost tempted to get one for Wally just to see how he takes to it.
> 
> Until then, I'm going to start squeezing him everyday.


I wasn't sure how Bentley would respond to it initially either, but it really works for him. Now that we've had it for awhile, he recognizes what its for and knows where I keep it so he will run to it if he's feeling anxious about something.



QuidditchGirl said:


> LOL, I actually looked at one of my baby swaddling cloths to see if it would work on Sirius tonight. He's about 30 lbs too big.  I ordered a Thundershirt.


Haha, that's too bad. It really is the same concept as swaddling a baby so that would have been great if it was the right size. I hope that the shirt works for you!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

BentletheYentle said:


> I wasn't sure how Bentley would respond to it initially either, but it really works for him. Now that we've had it for awhile, he recognizes what its for and knows where I keep it so he will run to it if he's feeling anxious about something.


Always love to see a dog developing ways for tell us how they feel and even better he has something to go to (hey, put this on me because I'm scared!) That's great!


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## BillPCali (May 20, 2010)

I'm going to post on my first thread here because this is most relevant to my situation.

About 3 weeks ago I picked up Torre, a 3 mos. old Black lab blend from the Humane Society. Where we live is with another dog, a 2 year old Border Collie/German Shepard mix. We introduced them prior to Torre coming home to make sure there wasn't going to be a problem. And even up to this moment they get along amazingly and get in tons and tons of exercise each day.

That said, her interactions with me and humans in general has been different. When she first got to the house, she was afraid of everybody. However, she has never shown signs of fearful aggression. She just shyed away from you if you were to approach her. Over the last few weeks she's come around. However, I've noticed that the times she listens best is when she's around the other dog. I would say there's about a 50% success rate with her listening and being comfortable, to her still being unsure and nervous. 

When the older dog is gone, Torre is very stationary and does want to go anywhere. I can't even bring her out for a walk because she refuses to go anywhere. So in order to socialize her to the outside world, I have to carry her everywhere. 

Lastly, the older dog was never really formally trained and exercises what I recognize to be bad habits (jumping on people, not listening, leading during walks, and play-biting to name a few). I feel like that could be either bad for my pup or in the least, make it extremely difficult for me to prevent that behavior in her.

So ultimately, I guess I'm looking for some advice/guidance on what I should do with the whole walking situation or going places and Torre being timid to do anything without the other dog's presence. And also if I should isolate the dogs to prevent transferring bad habits to my pup. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Bill 
Southern Cali


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Hi, Bill! Welcome to the forum and to this thread.

You talked a little bit about your new girl "listening." Well, if she's still afraid of you to some degree, I'd wait a bit before trying to start working on her manners. Three weeks is not a long time for a dog! Let her settle in for at least another few weeks and then worry about obedience. 

Also, what methods are you using to train her? I hope you're using lots of treats, both to give her an incentive to want to learn AND to associate you with a good thing.

I would use her comfort around the other dog to your advantage. Keep walking them together - walking her with a confident dog may help her to feel confident. Take her for some walks on her own.. short, upbeat walks, where you give her lots of cookies for being brave. At first, maybe it will just be to the curb. Then, maybe around the block. Bring her favorite treats and feed her lots of tiny little bits of them (pea-sized or smaller). Changing her perceptions about the world should come before anything else. It will make everything else a lot easier.

For her to continue getting more comfortable around you, try hand-feeding her.. it's notorious for helping to build a relationship.

Here is a website that you might find helpful: www.fearfuldogs.com

Good luck and keep us updated!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, thread filling up again 

Makes me wonder how the first one died. Sure seems to be getting a lot of action here


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I wondered why the first one died, too. The girl w/ the collie, Brenna, doesn't seem to post much anymore, and neither does ColoradoSooner withy Mayzie (though I hear from her very often on other sites).

I'm glad it was revived. I think a lot of people can be helped.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> Winnie, I think that short, frequent visits to the vet might work, even if you do have to push her a little bit in the beginning. I remember you doing something like this with peanut butter a long time ago.


I think you're right, although we're so far from being able to just walk in the door, I don't know how many trips it would take. It's a 30-minute drive, so we've been lazy about making it out there very much. Which is why I'm thinking about ways to push her along a little.



Cracker said:


> I highly recommend regular visits to say HI using a very high value reinforcer, and if possible having the vet herself deliver it, not talking or handling the dog, just give the reinforcer and leave. I would also start conditioning the muzzle at home and out and about for very short periods. You don't want the muzzle to become a predictor of the vet visit, but a part of everyday life that involves very good things. This will help reduce the stress on both the dog's part AND the vet's.


Our vet walks in the room with a jar of peanut butter and I bring PB and hot dogs or steak. Poca used to respond, but now that I have to muzzle her for treatment before we even get there, she just shuts down and refuses treats or to even go in the door - she's definitely learned that muzzle = vet. Once in, she stays shut down. The vet recommended we try a basket muzzle at home, making it a normal everyday thing. Not sure that will transfer to the nylon muzzle we have to use at the vets, but I might try it. (The vet did not recommend the basket muzzle for use at the office since it gives the dog the feeling of being able to move her jaws and bite, which she thinks will make her more reactive. So we use a nylon one.)

It just totally sucks. She hasn't liked going to the vet since she was hurt with a shot more than a year ago (different vet). But it's gotten worse since she had a bad visit to the vet with my husband last fall. He's not very dog wise and his nervousness and awkwardness dealing with the situation made it worse and escalated things. So I'm now trying to fix it.

And to top it off, she woke up sick this morning, possibly a delayed reaction to last weekend's vet visit/shots. I am a very grouchy girl just about now.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

<bump>

Crap on a biscuit. Or, more accurately, pee on the carpet. Poca got very anxious when my dad and I were outside fiddling around with the sprinkler system today. We were going in and out of the house, testing valves, running the system through all the zones, etc. She was excited and running around, but because she had just been play bowing and growling with my dad (she loves him), I thought her excitement was happy excitement, not anxiety. 

We came back inside for about the 4th or 5th time and found that she had peed on the family room carpet. Rats. Rats. Rats. It was obviously just too much for her. It's the first time it has happened, which has me a bit worried that she's getting worse about being left alone.

Q: For those with SA dogs, does using a crate help or make it worse?


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Ah, life with a fearful dog.

Those blue cones finally showed up, and Wally did go investigate them, but when he bumped it with his nose, it slid, made a sound, and he jumped back a little. 

So the first thing done with them is a lot of touching them (targeting both with nose as well as with paws so he can get used to the feel of it against his paws) and making sure they make the sound before he got a reward. Didn't use the clicker (or say anything) as I wanted the sound to be "the click" then he wouldn't be afraid of it. It was, he pushes, cones makes sound, he gets reward.

He started getting less and less jumpy about the sound. Good thing about it is now he "gets over it" MUCH faster and there's the initial curiosity that's good to see and even with the sound, he didn't refuse to interact with the object. Back then, it would be like pulling teeth to get him to interact - and I'd have to put them away until he calmed back down then try to introduce them again.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

winniec777 said:


> <bump>
> 
> Crap on a biscuit. Or, more accurately, pee on the carpet. Poca got very anxious when my dad and I were outside fiddling around with the sprinkler system today. We were going in and out of the house, testing valves, running the system through all the zones, etc. She was excited and running around, but because she had just been play bowing and growling with my dad (she loves him), I thought her excitement was happy excitement, not anxiety.
> 
> ...


To be perfectly honest, I have never tried a crate with Jonas. We've had some MAJOR house poop/pee-age going on this week, too. I've been late home from school on a couple days, so he's been stressed by that and started going in the house after we've walked him and Smalls and then walk Magpie and Jack. He's also become very neurotic when I leave for school when he was doing fine before. Lunging at the windows/barking/etc. when I go to open the front door. He won't even let me touch him.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Yikes. That does not sound good. Sounds like both our dogs took a step back this week. Now every time I go outside or into the garage, she comes running after me. WTH?? I have no idea what the trigger was. Maybe my dad. Oh well, back to square one.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

We'll get 'em back! I know the trigger for Jonas was my being late twice. I have him in a crazy structured routine (which is helping him a lot) but the downside is any variation from said routine will stress him out. Not to mention I had an unwanted house guest for nearly two weeks that really shook things up. 

Now that I think about it, while I haven't crated Jonas, I have put him in a room to himself, but even from the outside I could hear him going absolutely bonkers, so I prefer not to try a crate. He tends to redirect his need for me being around on Smalls. As long as he can follow Smalls around he is almost not concerned with what I'm doing.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

Thank goodness for Smalls! I often think having another dog would help Poca because she's so dog focused, but everything I've read on SA says getting a dog for your SA dog does not work so we haven't.

Now that you mention the visitor, I'm wonder if that might have been the trigger for both of our dogs. She was already in a hyper state of mind because she LOVES my dad (far cry from the fear biter she was when she first met him!). I bet the excitement just rolled right over into anxiety when we started our appear/disappear act. Interesting.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Jonas has extremely mild SA, if at all. He gets stressed if his routine is messed up and all of it is focused on me. Thankfully he is not destructive, self or otherwise, and usually responds to the stress by pooping by the front door- and it is always diarrhea even when at other points in the day it is solid. The uproar when I leave is the biggest thing. Every one else couldn't care less. 

I'm not sure what his deal with Smalls is. He doesn't feel that way towards Jack, and certainly not Magpie, and we had Jack and Smalls when we adopted him, but I'm glad he's comfortable with the presence of another dog. I think he would be MUCH worse off if he were the only dog.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

> We came back inside for about the 4th or 5th time and found that she had peed on the family room carpet. Rats. Rats. Rats. It was obviously just too much for her. It's the first time it has happened, which has me a bit worried that she's getting worse about being left alone.


I don't know much about Poca's SA issues but this instance, to me, doesn't really sound like separation anxiety, but rather anxiety over the fact that you keep going in and out. Marge is fine when left home alone, but if I'm outside without her, she gets stressed. She also gets stressed if I continuously go in and out.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm still working on the door with Marge. It is now literally the ONLY time that she reacts to my dad. I have been super diligent.. staying in certain rooms, constantly carrying cookies, working my schedule around his arrival home. She does the best in the kitchen. She hears the front door open, comes running to me, lays down and gets a cookie. Works wonderful. A lot less stress for all of us involved.

She seems to be okay when he comes in if no one is home. But she is NOT okay if I am in a different room (ex. the shower or asleep) and he comes in. That's what happened today.. I was sleeping up stairs (where she is not allowed), my dad came in and he growled at her. I would have never known about it had I not heard about it from him later on. There may have been another trigger (sunglasses/hat) but I'm not about to ask about it because my dad thinks that such fears are "stupid" 

Any ideas? He won't throw treats to her when he comes in, we've been trying to travel down that road for the past two years and I can't get him to do it. He is SO stubborn and so inconsiderate of the fact that it's a fear issue. He has a very CM mindset.. thankfully he does no training with her or she'd be a mess.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm in your same boat. Jonas is INSANE over someone entering the door, but happily receives treats from anyone coming in, but I just can't get people to come and do it. They act like when I ask I'm saying "Hey, I have a HUGE HUGE aggressive dog who will kill you, will you come over wrapped in meat?"


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

MissMutt said:


> I don't know much about Poca's SA issues but this instance, to me, doesn't really sound like separation anxiety, but rather anxiety over the fact that you keep going in and out. Marge is fine when left home alone, but if I'm outside without her, she gets stressed. She also gets stressed if I continuously go in and out.


That would be a huge relief if it's not related to SA. She's normally very independent, not a velcro dog at all, so this just threw me.

RE your dad -- I'm so sorry he is still being difficult about this. I remember when we swapped posts over a year ago and I was telling you how afraid Poca was of my dad. It's a complete 180 these days. She just loves him. Yesterday, she was climbing on the couch so she could get closer to his face to give him kisses! And he is very old-school, too, but he finally started listening when I asked him not to hover over her or talk in a loud voice or make eye contact. And it worked! Now he can do pretty much anything around her and she just thinks it's great. I just wish you could convince your dad to try your way for 1 month. I'm sure it would make a world of difference.




ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> I'm in your same boat. Jonas is INSANE over someone entering the door, but happily receives treats from anyone coming in, but I just can't get people to come and do it. They act like when I ask I'm saying "Hey, I have a HUGE HUGE aggressive dog who will kill you, will you come over wrapped in meat?"


LOL! What's even funnier for us is that it's the men who are more afraid of becoming a tasty snack for my dog. I've never had a female refuse to offer treats. Granted, she's a little more alert looking with men than women, but half the time the people I'm asking haven't even seen her yet because I ask outside before they come in or we go out.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Seriously! Every guy I know is completely uninterested in getting near Jonas. Yes, I understand, he is snarling and barking at you when you come in the door. But at the same time, he's 11 lbs and no taller than your ankle and is making his best effort to stay AWAY from you. If you advance into the house, Jonas will carry on, but he backs away while doing it. I also don't know how anyone misses when I say "OK, bed!" and he runs for his cuddle cup. He is not dangerous and out of control. Just scared of YOU, especially if you're a guy. 

Women on the other hand always want to hand him things and are willing to listen to why he's so scared. Guess I just don't know any dog savvy dudes!


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Tiberius has been doing great. I have started taking him visiting with friends at least one day a week. He adores it. On Friday I took him to work to visit with everyone. Not only did he get the treats I brought, but some gold fish crackers too. Then we walked down the road to the groomer where I got his nails trimmed for the first time. He did ok with it. He sorta threw a temper tantrum at first and whined and yelped. He even did something out of character and mouthed the groomer. I was stunned. The groomer said Tiberius was nothing compared to some dogs he has come in....so I guess that is a good thing...


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## Zoopie (Feb 22, 2010)

Fearful dog owner, right here.

My dog is great with kids and gets easily attached to women, but he hides and pees himself if a man tries to pet him.

He'll also throw big tantrum if I switch furniture around in the house. 

I bought him a big bone once. He still cries when he sees it.

Thankfully, I'm OCD about having a routine and I guess he's reassured by this.

He gets laughed at a bit though. He's a strong 90 pounds working dog and he tends to cower behind me and cries if a small aggressive fluffy dog runs towards him.


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## Dunixi (Mar 16, 2009)

Free to good home, one floor wetting husky. I'm kidding. I have been working on him over the last year on the potty training. He is crate trained which works great when no one is home or its bed time. During the day, someone is always home and he does well about not pottying in the house during the day. 

Today I get home from work, he runs up bouncy and barky as always. I ignore him while I put my work stuff away. Then he gets asked to sit and gets his loves. When I reached down to grab his collar (its a short walk to the door so a leash isn't needed) he ran toward the living room. This is normal, normally he waits at the front door. I went into the living room to get him, as soon as I walked into the room he squatted and peed. 

As soon as I told him "No" he stopped, stood up and went out the front door when I opened it. He wasn't cowering or shaking so I don't think its fear. I don't know what to do about this. He has done it a few times in the last month or so, since I started getting ready to move. He doesn't do it when he is away from me or anyone else. Only when someone can see him....thanks in advance.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

It's THAT time of year again.

Fireworks season.

One of Wally's residual fears popped up today. We were walking and everything was normal - then POP POP POP WHIIZZ POP POP 

Immediately, his tail dropped and he froze. The rest of the time he was trying - still walking kindy bouncy but was clearly concerned and unable to focus. 

I guess the good part is that he didn't shut down or show any further signs of anxiety. He didn't get super close to me or panic. Just could see the nervous energy in him. Couldn't maintain position, everytime he got up from a sit, he'd want to walk all fast, and the looking around at everything. 

I got really quiet and slowed everything down (walked slower, moved slower) and that seemed to help him. He was starting to focus on keeping his position and self-correcting for when he was too far ahead like he usually does. 

But...already? Seriously in Early June? *sigh*


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm so glad Jonas has no fear of loud noises. Not that the dogs don't bark their fool heads off every time one happens, but that is one small thing he isn't afraid of.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Sigh. It's gonna be hell here in a matter of time, too. Especially since the 4th is not just one day this year, but an entire weekend. 

6 AM walks, here we come. (And even those aren't foolproof.)


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Yup, I know Kaya will be scared to death of fireworks, but I also think her response on a walk will be to use me as her protecter..

She is making huge progress lately. I taught her to bark at me when she wants something, and boy oh boy has she started coming out or her shell. She seems quite excited she can bark and tell me something and get results that she is taking it a bit far and being a bit too assertive and demanding. I have to find a way to tone her down at times now, as she get quite active with the barking at me.

She is great with the barking when I ask her if she wants something, but the demanding things with it, like that I pay less attention to Hope and such, or barking like crazy when I pick up the leash to hook it up are a bit annoying.

But what a night and day change for her. It's the biggest boost in confidence and assertiveness I have seen in her, and very quickly.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I'd be careful about squelching it, at least for now. 

Kaya is probably "harder" than Wally (breed differences if nothing else), but I know if I squelched something right after he started it, I'd lose it again and it would be twice as hard to get it back.

So I had to let it go, and let him see he doesn't have to fear doing it. Really. You don't have to fear doing it, Wally. Kind of mentality. THEN I worried about controlling (or harnessing as I like to think of it) the behavior, or make the behavior into a task (like he barks at the kitchen timer to tell me it's going off or like when I baked bread and I'd have him bark when the timer went off). I think then, he could get some control over it without making it seem all or nothing (i.e. I bark all the time when I want, or I NEVER can bark).

Like I said, not sure if Wally/Kaya have the same personality, just saying what my experiences were in the battle of the bark.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> I'd be careful about squelching it, at least for now.
> 
> Kaya is probably "harder" than Wally (breed differences if nothing else), but I know if I squelched something right after he started it, I'd lose it again and it would be twice as hard to get it back.
> 
> ...


Yup, I do have to be careful there. It's just a bit annoying as she only learned to bark to get another scritch on the head when I stopped scritching... And it instantly exploded into barking at me for all kinds of things in only a few days time. It's like she learned a new way to express herself and communicate and found a new confidence, and she loves it, and wants to bark about everything. She learned she can tell me to do something, and I might actually do it! 

At the same time she's also developed a very strong prey drive for possums and squirrels on the back fence. To the point she is starting to get as hard headed about it as Hope is. Catching a couple of possums last month did not help in that regard. But that has also bounced her general confidence level up to.

If she keeps this up I'll stop thinking of her as a fearful timid dog, though she still fears some things her timidity is rapidly vanishing toward me, other people, and other dogs.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TxRider said:


> Yup, I do have to be careful there. It's just a bit annoying as she only learned to bark to get another scritch on the head when I stopped scritching... And it instantly exploded into barking at me for all kinds of things in only a few days time. It's like she learned a new way to express herself and communicate and found a new confidence, and she loves it, and wants to bark about everything. She learned she can tell me to do something, and I might actually do it!
> 
> At the same time she's also developed a very strong prey drive for possums and squirrels on the back fence. To the point she is starting to get as hard headed about it as Hope is. Catching a couple of possums last month did not help in that regard. But that has also bounced her general confidence level up to.
> 
> If she keeps this up I'll stop thinking of her as a fearful timid dog, though she still fears some things her timidity is rapidly vanishing toward me, other people, and other dogs.




Awesome! Glad to hear she's progressing so well!

Always a great thing to see, it's like your dog is changing right before your eyes. 

I think there will always be some fears if only because those things occur so infrequently (like fireworks - once a year - hard to build up a tolerance/desensitization to them) but even then, she'll bounce back faster, won't go as far over in the fear side, and that's a victory in and of itself for both dog and master.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Awesome! Glad to hear she's progressing so well!
> 
> Always a great thing to see, it's like your dog is changing right before your eyes.
> 
> I think there will always be some fears if only because those things occur so infrequently (like fireworks - once a year - hard to build up a tolerance/desensitization to them) but even then, she'll bounce back faster, won't go as far over in the fear side, and that's a victory in and of itself for both dog and master.


Yeah I think I am learning that her fears of loud sounds may always be there, but her fears of people and dogs and such was most likely learned from her days as a stray dog and she can overcome them through learning.

And I would bet likely well founded in reinforcement. People hurting her, chasing her off, trying to catch her (I bet they had a time doing that, and I bet it was quite traumatic for her), dogs being territorial against her etc. 8 months in and she's learning that people are not dangerous, and not all dogs want to attack her and drive her away and she's showing it.

Now instead of being fearful and distrusting of strangers, to the point I thought she was always deciding whether to bite or not, or to flee or not, when meeting a stranger, she is now getting to the point of being a nuisance as she wants to go meet every person and closely sniff up every inch of them up and down from toes to crotch all the way around them, when before she would not approach or take food.


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## JessieLove09 (Mar 27, 2010)

Molly is kind of skittish, but so was her mom.


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## lexilu (Jun 26, 2008)

I created a thread in the General section but since it has no responses, I thought I'd repost here...

Lexi is afraid of many things, but she(we) have been making progress. Until this morning. We were coming back from a walk and were in front of our house when two little girls (5 and 7 yrs old) were walking their Boxer puppy (about 7 months old). Boxer pup was across the street from my house. Lexi saw him and wanted to say hello - which is great. She started going towards the Boxer with tail stump wagging. OK - thats fine, I thought.

Boxer pup pulls the little girls (who could barely hold his leash) onto my driveway. He wants to play with Lexi -- does play bow, and takes paw and swats at her. He didn't really touch her, but Lexi started screaming - not a bark - but a long, high pitched yelping shriek, and didn't stop. She tried pulling away, going to our front door. Boxer pup was pulling kids to Lexi and my dog was screaming at the top of her lungs, and didn't stop screaming. She even showed teeth. Of course I scooped her up and ran in the house, and I could feel her heart racing in her chest.

I've had this happen one other time about 3 weeks ago with another pup in the neighborhood. That one just sniffed her face and Lexi started the yelping scream. So we walked off, and Lexi was fine. WTH is this? I have no clue why she is so afraid. She usually loves dogs, but most of her dealings are with small neighbor dogs who play with her in our back yard. We also have a Golden, so I would think size wouldn't be an issue. What do you think of this screaming stuff?


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## JLWillow (Jul 21, 2009)

Willow is afraid of other dogs. Well, maybe not exactly, it's hard to sum up.

She will sniff them, greet them nicely, all that is fine and dandy, but if they try to play with her, or have any more contact with her than just a short greeting, she stiffens, gets uncomfortable...sometimes she snaps if the dog is pushy. I don't think she knows how to act around dogs. She came from a hoarder's house, which I assumed had other dogs in it, but I'm starting to think she was the only dog in the house, and was obviously not socialized well with dogs at all, and possibly removed from her mother too early.

I don't know what to do to get her more comfortable. I try to give her treats and praise when there's an encounter. I must give credit though, because she used to be a lot worse, but now since she's more confident, she can snap. She's never ever hurt a dog, but there will be random fights she has with my neighbor's dog when we walk our dogs together, and then everything goes back to normal...Willow also becomes very domineering if I pet my neighbor's dog, and if I run towards the dog, or get excited about the dog (in a good way), Willow goes into attack mode.

I'd like to have a dog in the future, but there is maybe one dog that she is used to, and even then we rarely see him. I can't get her to get along with other dogs. I just wish I had an explanation for her behavior and what more I can do about it.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

lexilu said:


> I created a thread in the General section but since it has no responses, I thought I'd repost here...
> 
> Lexi is afraid of many things, but she(we) have been making progress. Until this morning. We were coming back from a walk and were in front of our house when two little girls (5 and 7 yrs old) were walking their Boxer puppy (about 7 months old). Boxer pup was across the street from my house. Lexi saw him and wanted to say hello - which is great. She started going towards the Boxer with tail stump wagging. OK - thats fine, I thought.
> 
> ...


It's definitely a fear response and it does sound like it's triggered by the size of the dog. Just because she gets along with your large dog does not mean she's going to generalize that all big dogs are nice. My dog does well with small dogs and her select larger dogs.

So, it's really going to be all about finding suitable large-breed playmates for her.. dogs that know how to read dog body language and will stay away when they see Lexi getting uncomfortable. Senior dogs are good for this. This usually means puppies are a no-no, since all they seem to want to do is play 

Try to limit her interactions on walks, stay away from face-to-face greetings.. when introducing her to a new dog, walk them together for a bit before letting them sniff.. don't be afraid to use treats to have her associate other dogs with a good thing. And lastly, don't be afraid to stick up for your dog and tell people that she cannot meet their dog because she is currently working through fear issues.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Well, how's it going this weekend, guys? It hasn't been terrible here yet, but we're hearing them every so often.. and we got caught outside on a walk when a big boomer went off..


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

So far, much better than I anticipated. Still got tonight and probably at least Monday to go. 

But, hardly any fireworks at all to this point.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

SOME how, like I've said, no one is afraid of fireworks here. In fact, some neighbors were setting off those little pathetic ones that stream sparks and pop in their drive way on our walk and Magpie and Jonas just stared at them, fascinated. Magpie play bowed and yipped at them on the way back. Oh, dogs.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

I could really use some help.

My girl Abbie seems to take steps forwards and backwards. 

1) She's VERY fearful. She doesn't like sounds. She doesn't like new people and will bark at them. She will wag her tail when we're in my room and someone approachs, but growls and barks and sounds like she's going to bite. I really don't want to get to the point where she becomes a fear biter but I don't know what else to do. 

2) I brought her to the dog park yesterday and she LOVED it. She ran around, tail wagging, like a happy dog. She would skitter away if people bent over to pet her, but towards the end did let one guy pet her several times while she was sitting next to me. 

I just don't know what to do. I've had her since January and feel like she should be farther along. Granted, I don't think I've put enough work into it. I think I need to just keep bringing her places and have her associate them with good things by having strangers give treats.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

meggels said:


> I just don't know what to do. I've had her since January and feel like she should be farther along. Granted, I don't think I've put enough work into it. I think I need to just keep bringing her places and have her associate them with good things by having strangers give treats.


See.. you solved it yourself! You sound exactly like me - I know the answers, I know the solutions, but I'm so bad at actually putting things in to practice. Granted, it's hard - desensitization is ongoing, needs to be done frequently, and really interferes with "normal dog" activities, which is why it's so darn hard to keep up with it.

As for sounds - something that I've found helpful with my dog is having HER make sounds - stepping on bubble wrap, for instance. My next step (something I've been talking about for a while) will be to stack something up (maybe cans?) and have her knock them over. Marge seems to know that she controls the noise, so it makes things a little easier. Plus, bubble wrap sounds a lot like those pesky pop-pop fireworks we hear on occasion...

There are also sound desensitization CDs around - they're useful for some dogs, not so much for others. Try Youtube sounds first to see if you should invest in CDs. You can play them during her meals, for example, or have short training sessions throughout the day where you play the noise and pair it with high-value treats (maybe set aside a specific food item that you ONLY use for sound desensitization training?)

As for people - they should NOT be approaching her! If they are approaching her, she is going to see it as a threat. If you are expecting company and won't be able to work with her directly (or have guests that are unwilling to listen to your rules regarding your dog), put her in a separate room or a crate. 

And, if she's unsure about taking treats from people's hand, tell them to toss them to her.


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## QuidditchGirl (Apr 9, 2010)

My dogs are actually FINE with fireworks and thunder - go figure. The 8 adults/kids we had over on Friday night - WHOLE different story. My big guy actually ran and wedged himself in the corner behind our TV when one of my friends walked in the door. I've been working with him for 2 months since we got him and I am not seeing progress. He's still completely terrified of everyone but us and everywhere but home. Frustrating.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Getting really bad here now. Sigh. I really hope this doesn't set us back.. Have my stash of roast beef and cheese ready, but every time she hears the really loud bombs, she goes in to a frenzy.

Just tried to take her out for a potty break but she would absolutely not go.


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

MissMutt said:


> See.. you solved it yourself! You sound exactly like me - I know the answers, I know the solutions, but I'm so bad at actually putting things in to practice. Granted, it's hard - desensitization is ongoing, needs to be done frequently, and really interferes with "normal dog" activities, which is why it's so darn hard to keep up with it.
> 
> As for sounds - something that I've found helpful with my dog is having HER make sounds - stepping on bubble wrap, for instance. My next step (something I've been talking about for a while) will be to stack something up (maybe cans?) and have her knock them over. Marge seems to know that she controls the noise, so it makes things a little easier. Plus, bubble wrap sounds a lot like those pesky pop-pop fireworks we hear on occasion...
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your reply. I was talking about it with someone else tonight, and I really realized a few things just be talking about it haha.

seems she becomes more aggressive/fearful when she's in her own space, which makes sense I think? Like, let's say someone comes into my room, she goes NUTS. And thinking about it, that may be a huge issue...

She hangs out in my room the most, like 90% of the time. So I'm sure she feels the need to protect it? If someone comes in she will bark, growl and those are the only times I've been worried that she may bite if she feels cornered or threatened enough. 

When we're out in public, she's shy, but doesn't actually react. She's been in puppy class and doesn't act like that. I took her to the dog park yesterday and she didn't act like that. 

If we're down in a "neutral" space like the living room, she will give a little bark every now and then, but that's about it. 

I've brought her into Petsmart once or twice and again, quiet. Clearly shy and timid, but not worrisome. She'll back away/duck a bit if a stranger tries to pet her, but again, never acts out if we're out in public.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wally and I endured tonight. I had to keep his mind off it by running through some training. Probably the only guy in the neighborhood with a clicker and leftover pancake pieces in my pocket at midnight. 

He still wavered some. I saw his tail go and stay down, but he was staying with me and trying his best to stay focused on me. He had this mixed look of excitement (from getting the food) and anxiety (from the sounds) and was looking around a lot while trying to focus on me too. Same with his movement. Some of the faster movement was excitement, but some was probably nervous energy too. When he went to take a potty break, he wouldn't venture as far away as usual and kept constantly looking back to find me. He wouldn't go far away to pee/poo and wouldn't even do much looking unless I came with him. He'd just keep looking back at me like "I want to, but could you come to?"

But he never went into full blown fear/anxiety mode though which was a victory in itself.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

So we just had an AWESOME Rally class where the only snark of the night was followed by LOTS of productive Look At That playing..

Then, I get home, stand outside talking with neighbors, and someone sets a firework off in the distance. Ok, throw my bag of treats to the ground and let Marge jackpot herself. Then, as we turned towards our house, the nasty, out-of-control Rottweiler was going by. She threw a fit, and Marge threw one back. 

Not really a big deal, but I'm just hoping that Marge doesn't decide to go wild towards our Rott classmates at agility on Tuesday.. she's been doing VERY well with them.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

It's summer, let the loose dogs charge!! 

Major eye roll. It seems it gets warm around here and we get rushed at least 50 times a summer. It's almost impossible to even walk Jonas. After yesterdays incident I'm already weary of walking any of them.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

Yeah. It seems that one it gets warm, all of the crazy people come out. Bad dog owners, bad drivers, obnoxious kids, etc.

We're been doing a lot of early morning walks, and as soon as I get my car back (my dad needs it this week because his is being repaired) I'd really like to go on some hikes.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

We have to walk when it isn't so hot, which is the exact same time every one else has to walk. We got rushed by what I thought was a bear last week. I seriously was frozen because I thought this lumbering, slow moving gimpy thing was a bear. It was an EXTREMELY over weight chocolate Lab that was not on a leash and just ran right at us. His owner was also disabled and could NOT grab him or even come over to us to retrieve him. He just kept yelling from the yard "He's friendly!" Thankfully, he was, but come on.


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## MissMutt (Aug 8, 2008)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> We have to walk when it isn't so hot, which is the exact same time every one else has to walk. We got rushed by what I thought was a bear last week. I seriously was frozen because I thought this lumbering, slow moving gimpy thing was a bear. It was an EXTREMELY over weight chocolate Lab that was not on a leash and just ran right at us. His owner was also disabled and could NOT grab him or even come over to us to retrieve him. He just kept yelling from the yard "He's friendly!" Thankfully, he was, but come on.


That sucks. Offleash dogs are just the worst. 

Strangely enough, around here they seem to prefer to take their dogs out in the middle of the blazing hot afternoon.. which makes mid-morning walks pretty quiet around here. And we see almost no dogs while in the woods.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

We can't win with either set of dogs no matter what time of day. We walk Jonas and Smalls together, and Magpie and Jack together. Jonas is obviously Jonas, but Smalls loves even strange dogs running up to play. Jack is reactive thanks to a loose dog, but Magpie largely doesn't care and will only follow Jack if he gets uppity. There is also a poor woman on our block with a REALLY reactive dog and she looks like she has no idea what to do. Every time we pass her her dog goes ballistic (she is not aggressive, she has also ran at us out the door of her house) she literally stops and just holds the leash while her dog flips around screaming.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Wally and I endured tonight. I had to keep his mind off it by running through some training. Probably the only guy in the neighborhood with a clicker and leftover pancake pieces in my pocket at midnight.
> 
> But he never went into full blown fear/anxiety mode though which was a victory in itself.


I wish I could say the same. I was down at my folks place out in the country. Kaya was having a great time, chased a couple deer even, lots of walks in the woods.

She was outside at night when fireworks started off in the distance, she wanted no part of outside again, shivered inside all night and obviously wanted to go home.

Got home Monday evening and as she was out in the back yard some people down the street set off a bunch of firecrackers and she was scared out of her wits again.

Between that, and me having to brush her which she hates as she is shedding tons of fur everywhere and giving her bath, she is basically a wreck and not even coming when I call her without her ears down and acting like I have been kicking her around or something.

It's been a pretty rough week for Kaya, and it shows.

Highlights the difference between my two dogs. Fireworks were likely 2-3 miles away at my parents place, night time, out in the dark in the field behind the house. Kaya hears it and runs to me and gets against my leg, panting heavily, and starts to shake showing she really wants to hitail it for the house. Hope hears it, look off that direction, lets out a healthy RRRRRUFF!! and paws the ground with her front feet a couple of times, then ignores it.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Wow, such a stark contrast (and I read your other post with the possums in your other thread) 

That's too bad, though, that Kaya had such a miserable time  It's always heartbreaking to see a dog stop having fun because their fears crop back up.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Yeah I'm going to have to just let Kaya shed all over the house, no more brushing. She's going to take a while to get back to herself now. Too much scary stuff happening and too much coming from me. She needs a good few weeks of non scariness of any kind, especially none generated by me, and some fun...

After brushing and bathing and all that's gone on she's looking at anything I do from walking from one room to another, to anything I pick up even the TV remote, as something she needs to drop her ears, tuck her tail and and hide from me for.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

TxRider said:


> After brushing and bathing and all that's gone on she's looking at anything I do from walking from one room to another, to anything I pick up even the TV remote, as something she needs to drop her ears, tuck her tail and and hide from me for.


I'm so sorry - that would break my heart to see Poca react to me like that. Seeing dogs under stress is the most depressing thing for me. And here I am not helping any - sorry.

Hopefully a nice break will help. We do the same with Poca. It's like I have this counter in my head keeping a running total of stress incidents. When it hits a certain level, we pull way back on activities and excitement for her and give her several days to unwind and recover. By managing her stress levels along with her diet & antibiotic, she hasn't been sick in months (knock on wood). 

We were over at my folks tonight and for some reason Poca has developed a fear of being inside their house. She all but refuses to go in. And once in, she's in sentinel mode, unresponsive to my parents, whom she adores and usually slobbers all over. She will still take treats but she rarely looks at me and is constantly watching out for something....lord knows what. It's very frustrating. Especially since my parents have no clue what it's all about. When she didn't respond to them, my dad joked (badly) that maybe she needed one of my mom's hearing aids, then went on to say she has selective hearing, as if she was being stubborn. 

Sigh. I try to explain that she's worried and is busy processing information that is overwhelming her but they just don't get it. All they want is for her to be happy and come to them for pets, like normal dogs do. 

So now we have another thing to work on. I wish I could get inside her head for just 1 minute and tell her that there's nothing to be afraid of, that I will take care of her and love her and protect her always. Just for one minute....


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## Shiningsummer (May 24, 2010)

Hi, guys. I'm a newbie to this forum and have a fearful dog named Molly. I adopted her from a local shelter as a four month old puppy and she is now 11 months. She is fearful of people she doesn't know and barks, cowers, and pees on herself if they get too close . I have been working with her based on Patricia McConnell's methods used in her book "The Cautious Canine" and I think Molly is making a little improvement. I have made a few posts about her and her fears before, and have gotten some great advice from others on this forum, especially MissMutt. I thought I would share some good news in this thread since it seemed like a place that her recent success would be appreciated the most . 

Molly had to go to the vet recently for a bordetella shot that was due. She needed it because it's required at the doggy daycare she goes to. As far as I'm concerned, doggy daycare is a lifesaver for me and Molly, so she was definitely going to get that vaccine whether she liked it or not. She had been to the vet several times before, but that was months ago and she wasn't fearful then like she is now. I was worried about how she would react to the vet this time, so I was taking her on short visits to the vet's office to try to desensitize her to it. I would give her chicken and praise as we approached and entered the office and cut it off when we left. She definitely made an improvement, but was still somewhat fearful of the staff.

Finally, the day arrived when she had to go to the vet. I went with Molly's favorite people, me, my dad, and my brother. She seems to feel more secure when there are more family members around her. I had a clicker and a bunch of delicious treats. I warned the vet staff in advance that we were coming and they let us in the side door so Molly wouldn't have to go past a bunch of unknown people and animals. We had to walk past a vet tech as we were coming in and Molly was definitely scared and tried to back away, but we had to go in, so I picked up 50 pounds of mutt and walked into the exam room with her. At this point, she was scared and wary, but she wasn't terrified and blind with panic like I have seen her at times. She was still responding to us and taking treats, which was a big step. While we waited in the exam room for the vet, I had Molly do tricks and gave her treats and that seemed to take her mind off of everything a little bit. When the vet came in with the vet tech, Molly immediately backed away from them and tried to hide under the exam table. We kept her from doing that because I didn't want her to go into "denning mode" and feel cornered and bite. She has never bitten or snapped at anyone before, but I didn't want to take any chances. The vet was wonderful with her. She did all the things you should do with fearful dogs-she crouched down to Molly's level and avoided eye contact at first, gave Molly some of the treats I had, and talked softly to her. I think this helped a lot. She was still scared and peed a little when the vet approached, but she was still taking treats and you could see that she was mentally processing things. I have seen her so scared before that she lost compete control of her bowels and bladder and at that time, her eyes were blank and there was no way she would take treats. The vet did a quick exam, took her temperature, and gave Molly the vaccine. I clicked and treated pretty much the entire time, so I hope this was a somewhat positive experience for her. She was also scared of the scale, but my brother picked her up and put her on it and I clicked and treated while she was on it. After she was on it, she was fine. Then we were done, and my dad and brother took Molly back to the car while I paid the bill and talked to the vet a little more. I asked if I could take her by for short visits again in the future, and the vet tech said sure and that we could even take her back to the exam room and scale every once in a while too! That would be great-even if we only have to go to the vet every 6 months or so, it would still be a good thing for Molly in terms of her general training. It would help her get out and learn to associate good things with strange people and places. It wasn't a perfect visit, but it went as well as I could have expected and I am happy about that. Thanks to everyone here for listening and sorry about the long post .


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

It sounds like Molly is coming along nicely. Glad to hear it!

Thanks for the idea of taking other people your dog likes with you. I might try that next time. I wish Poca liked the clicker. I've tried it a few times with her, but she is so noise sensitive that it just adds to the scary distractions.


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## Shiningsummer (May 24, 2010)

winniec777 said:


> It sounds like Molly is coming along nicely. Glad to hear it!
> 
> Thanks for the idea of taking other people your dog likes with you. I might try that next time. I wish Poca liked the clicker. I've tried it a few times with her, but she is so noise sensitive that it just adds to the scary distractions.


Thanks, believe me, she's still got a long way to go. I am grateful that Molly doesn't seem to be extremely fearful of loud noises. I had heard that some dogs were afraid of the noise that clickers make and I was worried the first time that I used it that Molly would be scared of it, but luckily she isn't. There are some clickers that are designed to have a softer click, and I even saw some that have varying levels of volume. Maybe that's an option for your dog? It's not like the clicker is the only way to train a dog anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you.

Sorry that your dog is so terrified of the vet. How is that coming? Also I see Poca has had some success with playing the touch game. Is she still doing well with that? I have been planning to train Molly to do that. At this point, I can't imagine Molly going up to a stranger and actually touching them. She sounds a lot like Poca, she also barks at visitors, and she will pee and poop if they get too close. When my sister visits, she still acts scared around her, but will eventually warm up to her by the end of the day. On the other hand, I have another brother who recently visited for the first time for a week and Molly was terrified of him for the entire visit, even though he did everything I told him to when interacting with her . Oh well, I try to appreciate the small successes when I can and in the meantime we just keep trying.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

The vet visits are still pretty bad, but we haven't had much time to address it. We just try to keep it quick and as stress free as possible. She's starts stressing about a 1/2 mile from the vets and by the time we get there she is already over threshold. We've tried different routes, walking her the last bit of the way in, hanging out, treating, etc. I think what she needs is a lot more repetition (like daily visits for a month) and with a vet 30 minutes away in the opposite direction from everything else we do, that's probably not going to happen. Our vet and the office staff are great, though, so it's manageable. I hate that she has such a rotten time, though. 

Touch has worked really well. She'll now put her nose up to lots of different people, even if they don't have a treat. She still has an issue with men and older boys, though. She had as much socialization with men as women when she was a pup but she is still suspicious of them, esp. taller ones. She's had no bad experiences with men unless something happened at day care that we don't know about, but I really doubt that. Who knows. But touch works well. If she won't touch, we get the stranger to drop hot dog pieces on the ground and build up to touch. Usually only takes a couple of tries now before she's doing it.

Sorry about the peeing and pooping. Poca used to excitement pee - that resolved with maturity and we managed by making sure she was outside when greeting people she loved. She did do the fear pooping thing when she was under 6-8 months. That resolved, too, with maturity. And I got a lot better at noticing when she was approaching her limit and could avoid the pooping by getting her away from whatever was scaring her. This after taking some bad advice from a trainer who thought flooding her was the best way to get a dog over her fear of something. Didn't take more than a couple of instances of that before I knew the trainer was a dud in the fear department.


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## no.guru (Apr 9, 2010)

Great idea for a second fearful thread. I kept intending to read the old one but its length made it difficult. I haven't read this thread yet but I did a keyword search of my topic and found nothing.

My dog breathes heavily at night, every night. It's almost a panting, but not really. It's most noticeable when she's laying on her side; her mouth is closed, so it clearly isn't panting. Besides, she hasn't just been exercising or doing anything to lose her breath. Eventually, it returns to normal when she's distracted, or playing or has gone to sleep.

If anyone knows any way to discourage this, please tell me. I feel bad for her because it looks almost like she's in pain. She's a shelter dog and I've had her for a year. She's two and a half and has recently been seen by a vet. This behavior has been consistent for the past year so I'm confident it's not an illness.


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## Jerzpup (Oct 4, 2013)

Hello!
We have an 8mth old black lab mix; Jersey, We adopted her in April; she is basically a very playful & loveable pup; although she scares easily. We are expecting a new baby in November and we've been receiving all kind of gifts that Jersey is terrified of. We learned if we leave the item out she will eventually be ok with it. What has become hard is she seems afraid to greet my husband when he comes hoe from work. She used to dash up the stairs as soon as she heard his voice; now when she hears the alarm she will look towards the stairs and wag her tail, but she will nestle up to me until he comes down. Sometimes when she seems him she will finally run to him, but sometimes she backs away with her head down. I can tell this upsets my husband and we are at a loss as to what is going on with her.


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