# Purebreds versus Mutts



## Availeth (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm the yet-to-be dog owner who wants to have a papillon. After browsing the web a bit and having a phone conversation with a professional breeder contact, I learned they cost on average about a thousand dollars. This just floored me, and I chuckled right out loud to the man on the phone. He was a bit offended and proceeded to tell me that his (other kind of) dog was $1500. I said "Who has that kind of money but rich people?" and he said "Everybody who buys a purebred dog has, that's just what a purebred dog's price range is."

Well, I've been thinking about this all week, and I'd love to have any of your purebred owners and especially breeders enlighten me. Seems to me, a litter of puppies is produced quite "naturally" by letting two already-existing dogs mate. You don't have to do much to bring them into the world, they'll come on their own. A breeder might say, "Well, we provide them their shots and make sure they're healthy." But I say to that... "Everybody does that. Every responsible dog owner does that, that's nothing out-of-the-ordinary or special." People with dogs from the pound get them shots, vet visits, dog tags, all sorts of things.

So then why this high price for a dog? I'm so bummed out. I certainly don't have a thousand dollars extra in my life, and if I did, it would have to go to a bill, or something. Plus, my friends are razzing me about wanting a purebred dog anyway. They say I should just rescue a little mixed breed dog from the shelter and it will be just as loveable as a purebred. I don't know why I really want that purebred papillon... I just do... but they say it's an issue of pride and ego.

Any comments on all of this?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I won't comment on the expenses involved with reputable breeding practices (others will I'm sure), but I will say there are cheaper alternatives to buying a purebred dog than from a breeder...it's called adoption. However, if you're balking at the upfront costs, I wonder what you're thoughts are on the long term cost of owning a dog? The upfront cost is marginal in comparison.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

First off have you considered Papillon rescue???

Second, responsible breeders do much much more for their dogs then provide shots. A responsible breeder screens their bloodlines against the hereditary diseases/ailments common in the breed. Not all breeders are created equal. I have done rescue for over 20 years. I have had all purebred dogs. I also went to a breeder for my youngest (current) dog. My breeder showed her dogs, titled them. Her dogs were OFA hips, elbows, cardiac clear and Cerf for eyes. Why is this important you ask? Well, certainly you have heard of dogs with hip dysplasia or Luxating Patellas? The risk of these things is cut down drastically by simply NOT breeding dogs with these issues. Genetic screening can cut down the risk of producing puppies with these issues. That is basically what you are paying for in getting a pup from a good breeder.
I paid well over the cost that you quoted above and I am hoping that it will pay off in the end by costing me a lot less in vet bills. 
My last 2 rescues cost me a small fortune. One was 12 weeks when I got her from the police. I put over $1,200 in her in vet bills trying to save her life and lost her at the end anyway before she hit 6 months. It was horrible and NOT just for the fact of money. I am NOT rich by any stretch of the imagination. 
My other current dog Oliver has cost me over twice the purchase price of my breeder dog. That is not to say all rescues are going to be unhealthy either. The girl I had right before these 2 lived to a ripe old age of 13 and she was barely sick a day in her life. 
She appeared to be a rather well bred dog though too. Based on conformation etc...

I am a huge fan of rescues or humane societies. There are many wonderful dogs out there in need of a home. Many healthy pure or mixed breed dogs. Young or old. Many to chose from.
If you do decide to go the route of a breeder, I suggest you really do your research. If you are interested in Papillons maybe private message Laurelin on here. Maybe she can steer you in the right direction.


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## Stitch (Nov 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> However, if you're balking at the upfront costs, I wonder what you're thoughts are on the long term cost of owning a dog? The upfront cost is marginal in comparison.



$1000 up front is a lot compared to a couple hundred every year in vet costs.

And in my opinion, $1000 is WAAAY too much for a dog... Period. For that kinda $$$ a dog better do a hell of a lot more than just pee, poop, bark and eat.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

You need to think long and hard about why you want a purebred. Do you plan to show it? Breed it? Brag about it?

Of the six great dogs I've had in my life, just one was a purebred (and several others may or may not be.) For me, it made no difference at all. The purebred was no smarter, easier to train, healthier or in any way more desirable than all the others.

There are legitimate reasons for wanting a purebred, but it doesn't sound like you know what they are or if they'd apply to you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Papillons are just not cheap dogs. $1000 is actually a pretty low price for one! Even the breed rescue will charge up to $400 for a papillon. Why? It can be darn expensive to show a dog. Health testing like OFA's and CERFs are a bit more money. Toy breeds more often have birthing difficulties. Plus papillons have small litters. The cost is not split between a litter of 10-12 like it could be with big dogs. Paps average 1-4 puppies, most the time it seems there are only 2-3. I also think demand is part of it too. 

Any toy breed puppy from a good breeder won't be cheap. 

I personally think the breed is worth it. They are fabulous dogs and a joy to live with. Purchase price on any dog is a small drop in the hat in the grand scheme of things. Our 'free' dog ended up having to have a couple thousand dollar surgeries on his hips. Our other free dog (who is actually a purebred papillon) has so far been our easiest. She's not had any major health problems. You just never know.

ETA: I think examining why you want a papillon is the key here. Then it should be more clear as to whether or not they're 'worth the price' for you.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Stitch said:


> $1000 up front is a lot compared to a couple hundred every year in vet costs.


You forgot a whole bunch of stuff: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1671&aid=1543.


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

First, I don't know enough about Paps to say what their price range is and I would suggest you do a bit more research before locking in on that $1000 price tag as costs will vary and a higher price tag doesn't always mean you're getting a better dog. How many breeders have you spoken with and where did you get their contact info?

As for why a dog may cost that much, there's a lot more that goes into responsible breeding than just allowing two intact dogs to mate. If you are buying from a breeder who shows their dogs, it's possible they have invested thousands of dollars in showing their dog in an effort to prove their breeding program. And hopefully the breeder health tests which is *not* the same as simply having a vet declare the parents healthy and costs significantly more. Of course, there's always the chance that the breeder you are looking at is not responsible, has invested little to nothing in their dogs and breeding program and it is all about the money.

Have you considered breed specific rescue? If you aren't interested in a mix but would like to rescue it may be a better option for you.


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## Stitch (Nov 1, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> You forgot a whole bunch of stuff: http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1671&aid=1543.


Nope... I kept all that in mind. My post was showing that $1000 up front is worse than, lets say, $1000 spread over a years time.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

If you're interested...

Breeder's list:

http://www.papillonclub.org/pcabreederslist.htm

I've shopped around a lot. If I were looking at purebred papillon puppy from a good breeder then I'd expect to pay $750-$1400 for a pet quality dog. There ARE other breeder options though. I got Summer when she was 3, almost 4 for $500 from a breeder. Some breeders sell adults that don't work out for the breeding program for whatever reason. Many times these dogs are cheaper than a puppy. I also know some breeders will sell mismarked puppies cheaper. I'm not sure why or the reasoning on that since the breeding and quality is the same, but they will.

rescues to check out:

http://www.pcarescuetrust.org/
http://www.pap911rescue.org/
http://www.paphaven.org/


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Stitch said:


> Nope... I kept all that in mind. My post was showing that $1000 up front is worse than, lets say, $1000 spread over a years time.


And I said "long term" costs not yearly costs. Heck $1K is a weekend for some dog enthusiasts. But $1K over the lifespan of a dog IS marginal.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Inga said:


> My last 2 rescues cost me a small fortune.


I adopted an adult mutt found as a stray from a rescue organization last June. Benji wasn't in the "system" very long. He was taken out of the city pound after the mandatory 7 day waiting period when no one claimed him. He was only in rescue for 4 days after that. When I adopted him his weight and coat condition were very good, he was very friendly, and appeared to be in good health.

Well, I gave the rescue organization $500 to cover an expensive neuter (undescended testicle), shots, and a few days boarding. When I took him in to my own vet they diagnosed kennel cough and found he had a benign tumour near his anus (caused by his being intact after so long). We cured the kennel cough, gave him another round of shots, removed and biopsied the tumour, and cleaned his teeth. So another $1300 to my vet, who is far from the most expensive around.

Last month, Benji cut his paw and was in pain so we took him in to the expensive vet nearest us. Cost: $370 of which $170 was paid by his $300/year insurance. The deductible is $200 per "incident."

Last week, he vomited and passed blood in his stool so we took him back to the expensive vet. This time the bill was $250 with another $200 deductible.

So Benji, who is relatively healthy (nothing chronic wrong with him) and very happy has cost us about $2500 not including the cost of food, toys, etc.

Dogs are expensive.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

I think you need to ask yourself why you want a pap in the first place. If you don't know why you specifically want a pap, then...I'd take your friends suggestions and go to a shelter.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Exactly Philovance! They surely are. Those emergency costs can really kill ya.

I never want to deter anyone from rescue claiming that all dogs within rescues will end up costing you a lot more then if you bought from a good breeder. The truth is it is all a gamble no matter the choice you make. I guess after years of being lucky in gambling (on dogs) I had a few that ended up breaking the bank so to speak. When it came time to make another choice as to whom should become the next family member. I decided to play the odds in my favor and purchase a dog from a breeder that does all the health screening. Get back to me in 10+ years and I will tell you if it was worth the extra in purchase price. There were a lot of puppies available from breeders that were cheaper too but I thought, if I was going to do this one time, I wanted to get the pup of my dreams. LOL Well, my dream pup was a girl and I ended up with a boy but so far, he is a pretty wonderful boy.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I've never quite understood why people are sold on only having a particular breed. I've also never understood why people are sold on only having a puppy and won't even consider an adult dog, but that's another topic altogether. I've owned a couple of mutts in my life that were wonderful dogs and I've owned mutts that were nothing but trouble. I've owned purebreds that were wonderful dogs and purebreds who were trouble as well. 

My advice would be to go down to the local shelter (they often have purebred dogs) and find a dog who fits your personality and energy level and is the right size dog you're wanting. (I.E. don't pick a Mastiff if you live in a studio apartment.) You can find puppies there as well as adults and at my local humane society you can even get on a list to be notified if there is a specific breed you're wanting. If they get a papillion in, they'll call you and you'll have first dibs.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

I prefer purebreds, because I like knowing exactly what I'm going to get (size, energy, grooming needs, temperament, etc). Puppies now, I can give or take; I actually like older dogs more.

Small breeds tend to be more expensive, because litters are smaller, they sometimes require c-sections, and there's much more demand for them. You also pay for the testing and titling of the parents. I would, of course, never pay $1k for a purebred if it's parents were NOT tested or proven in anything. Some people just assume 'if it're purebred, it has to be expensive' which is how pet shops get away with charging $2k for some badly bred puppy mill dog with an unknown parentage and health history. It's simply ignorance on the customer's part.

You have to know what you want, how to get it, and what the normal value of it is, or else even paying 500$ for a pup could be a rip off. Especially if, like most people, you don't really have strict preferences about what you like, and would be just as happy with a shelter dog. Purebreds aren't _better_ than mutts, they're just different, and they're made appeal to specific desires/needs in people.


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## Availeth (Mar 23, 2009)

Okay, thank you all for your very great responses. You've made me re-think things a little and ask myself some questions.

The reason I want a dog is basically cuz I'm lonely. I'm 52 years old, single, and just had my heart broken a month ago. My friends are saying I need something better to come home to every night than inane TV and crying myself to sleep. I did have a pet a long time ago, a 15-yr-old cat I loved dearly that died in 1994, and thought I'd never want anything else again. But I'd like a dog now because I enjoy walking and because I think I have some talent for training. I have a small condo, and there's a girl down the hall who would check on "my dog" and walk it in the middle of the day. 

The reason I want a papillon is that Yahoo did an article on dogs a couple weeks ago and it said they are one of the smartest breeds. Had all sorts of good things to say about them. Bred to be companion dogs, small enough to maybe even litter-box train, friendly, beautiful, classic just like the ones in old European paintings.

My friend's point, though, is that most dogs are pretty trainable, and a papillon is not going to be an Einstein compared to a Gomer Pyle if I went to the shelter. She says if I want something small and furry and warm and friendly, there are probably a dozen there to choose from. She has a maltese, and I just don't like that poodle-look, but I like something that reminds me of a sheltie or a collie and papillons look kind of like that to me. I'll have to admit I liked the idea of having a fancy purebred dog... not to show, but to show off, lol.

I dunno... now I've just got to think about all of this I guess.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

http://www.petfinder.com/search/sea...t.Age=young&pet.Size=&pet.Sex=&location=54301

those are the results in my area when I searched for a Papillon. As you can see on the left you can chose any breed and put your zip code in and search to see what is available in your area. There are so many dogs and mixes of dogs out there.
As far as having a purebred to "show off" just think of as any pound mix as a "designer breed" and you get all kinds of bragging rights.  Good Luck to you. I can't wait to hear what breed you choose.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Availeth said:


> The reason I want a dog is basically cuz I'm lonely. I'm 52 years old, single, and just had my heart broken a month ago. My friends are saying I need something better to come home to every night than inane TV and crying myself to sleep. I did have a pet a long time ago, a 15-yr-old cat I loved dearly that died in 1994, and thought I'd never want anything else again. But I'd like a dog now because I enjoy walking and because I think I have some talent for training. I have a small condo, and there's a girl down the hall who would check on "my dog" and walk it in the middle of the day.
> 
> The reason I want a papillon is that Yahoo did an article on dogs a couple weeks ago and it said they are one of the smartest breeds. Had all sorts of good things to say about them. Bred to be companion dogs, small enough to maybe even litter-box train, friendly, beautiful, classic just like the ones in old European paintings.
> 
> ...


All dogs are trainable. Some are just easier to train than others. I wouldn't get a dog based solely on it's trainability. I would pick a dog based on it's personality. Some dogs and some humans just have personality conflicts. That's the way it is. Go to a shelter and look for a dog with a lower energy level than yours. You'll save a life and get a great companion to boot. You can get both purebreds and mutts, adults and puppies there.



Pai said:


> I prefer purebreds, because I like knowing exactly what I'm going to get (size, energy, grooming needs, temperament, etc).


I would argue that you get that with any adult dog purebred or not.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> I would argue that you get that with any adult dog purebred or not.


With adults, of course. Most people prefer puppies though.

I have a specific aesthetic and energy level I like best in dogs, which is easier for me to get in a purebred. I don't judge anyone by what kind of dog they get -- all dogs deserve a good home, regardless of their pedigree. I honestly think most people would be just as happy with a cute mix as with a purebred.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Availeth said:


> My friend's point, though, is that most dogs are pretty trainable, and a papillon is not going to be an Einstein compared to a Gomer Pyle if I went to the shelter. She says if I want something small and furry and warm and friendly, there are probably a dozen there to choose from. She has a maltese, and I just don't like that poodle-look, but I like something that reminds me of a sheltie or a collie and papillons look kind of like that to me. I'll have to admit I liked the idea of having a fancy purebred dog... not to show, but to show off, lol.
> 
> I dunno... now I've just got to think about all of this I guess.


Do you know how much it's going to cost you a year to keep a dog that is "show off" material?


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

If you are baffled by the cost of owning a dog, but are ready for that lifetime comitment/best friend, (I know this has been said a billion times, but I completely agree!) go for a mutt from a shelter. They are cheap (most pounds provide all shots etc.) but get the best of every dog they're mixed with and you'll be saving a life! Mutts have very few health issues and tend to have longer, happier lives than purebreds. Plus he/she will be very unique. Please, consider adoption. Hundreds of thousands of dogs need homes!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Availeth said:


> Okay, thank you all for your very great responses. You've made me re-think things a little and ask myself some questions.
> 
> The reason I want a dog is basically cuz I'm lonely. I'm 52 years old, single, and just had my heart broken a month ago. My friends are saying I need something better to come home to every night than inane TV and crying myself to sleep. I did have a pet a long time ago, a 15-yr-old cat I loved dearly that died in 1994, and thought I'd never want anything else again. But I'd like a dog now because I enjoy walking and because I think I have some talent for training. I have a small condo, and there's a girl down the hall who would check on "my dog" and walk it in the middle of the day.
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, the yahoo article, lol! I've gotten a few questions after that. They are very very smart dogs. I can't say enough for their intelligence and trainability. However, that intelligence does get them in trouble a lot. Mine are messes (in a good way). 

If you have any questions about the breed, I'd be more than happy to help (as I'm sure all the other pap owners on here would be).



gracie_pie said:


> If you are baffled by the cost of owning a dog, but are ready for that lifetime comitment/best friend, (I know this has been said a billion times, but I completely agree!) go for a mutt from a shelter. They are cheap (most pounds provide all shots etc.) but get the best of every dog they're mixed with and you'll be saving a life! *Mutts have very few health issues and tend to have longer, happier lives than purebreds.* Plus he/she will be very unique. Please, consider adoption. Hundreds of thousands of dogs need homes!


That is an oversimplification. There are a lot of factors that go into life expectancy and health in a dog. It's a fallacy to think mutts can't have health issues. My mutt had a hereditary disease we had to have surgically corrected and eventually put him down for it. That's not to say purebreds are any healthier but just to point out that hereditary disease do happen in mixed breed dogs. 

And happier lives? That's a pretty interesting conclusion. How in the world do you judge that?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> but get the best of every dog they're mixed with and you'll be saving a life! Mutts have very few health issues and tend to have longer, happier lives than purebreds.


I love shelter mutts, but there are a couple of urban legends buried in that statement.

If you could get the best of multiple breeds when you combine them, the Labradoodle breeders would be right, wouldn't they. But sometimes you get the worst of multiple breeds. It's the luck of the draw.

And there is no evidence that mutts are happier or healthier or live longer than purebreds (unless you're comparing them with really poorly-bred purebreds.) That's just something we mutt-lovers like to believe.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

One of the reasons why purebreds get the rap on 'sickly' is because people actually TRACK diseases in purebred dogs. You can't do that in mutts, because 90% of the time people don't even know what their parents were or what their health history was. The reason there are lists of 'known hereditary diseases found in [X] breed' is because purebred breeders actually track and report that over the generations, whereas in mutts, nobody does. Also, most all puppymill breed purebred dogs, which artificially increases the rate of 'sickly' purebreds out there, simply because _more bad breeders breed them.
_
The majority of dogs in the U.S. are mutts. 20% of people get dogs from shelters, 20% get them from breeders, and the rest (60%) get them from friends/relatives/oops litters from the paper for free or super cheap. 

In other words, purebreds aren't actually harming shelter dogs' chances of getting adopted. The way some folks like to talk as if they HAVE to convince everyone they can not to get one or else more shelter dogs suffer, is basically built on false assumptions. Many shelters have purebreds too, so you can technically get the best of both worlds.

Mutts and Purebreds both have postives and negatives. Different people are drawn to one or the other for different (and valid) reasons. No side has to put down the other in order to promote them. We all love dogs and want them to have happy lives, regardless of which 'team' we're on. =P


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Pai said:


> With adults, of course. Most people prefer puppies though.


I would definitely not argue with that. Aside from the fact that they're so freaking cute I've never understood why. Puppies take an incredible amount of work vs adopting an adult dog or even a teenage dog. I confess to once visiting a litter of basset puppies and being tempted to adopt them all. Fortunately the rational side of my brain was actually working that day.



> I have a specific aesthetic and energy level I like best in dogs, which is easier for me to get in a purebred. I don't judge anyone by what kind of dog they get -- all dogs deserve a good home, regardless of their pedigree. I honestly think most people would be just as happy with a cute mix as with a purebred.


I'm not too picky about looks. I don't want a frou-frou girly looking dog, but that's about it. I did visit a rescue organization once who tried to get me to adopt a toy poodle. Big guy hauling around a toy poodle? No thanks. For me it's all about the energy level and I've found I can get that in a mutt or a purebred and I've owned both.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> I would definitely not argue with that. Aside from the fact that they're so freaking cute I've never understood why. Puppies take an incredible amount of work vs adopting an adult dog or even a teenage dog. I confess to once visiting a litter of basset puppies and being tempted to adopt them all. Fortunately the rational side of my brain was actually working that day.


I know, 'puppy fever' is a highly contagious thing, lol!


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Some interesting information:

Top 10 Reasons Why NOT to Own a Papillon!
by Deborah Wood

We all love Papillons, but know that they are NOT for everyone. Here are my 10 real reasons not to own a Papillon:

1. They are "verbally gifted." You have to be willing to put up with a lot of barking or work with your dog diligently.
2. Many are not lap dogs. They look like lap dogs, but many are like little, tiny Border Collies and would rather jump and run than cuddle.
3. Many are very hard to housebreak.
4. Many males, especially unneutered ones, tend to "mark." Deal with the problem early and with diligence, or learn to live with belly bands.
5. Although Papillons are among the healthiest and longest-lived breeds, there are some health concerns to check out. All breeding dogs should be checked for PRA. A fairly common problem in the breed is luxating patellas.
6. With rare exception, Papillons aren't a good combination with small children. They break.
7. Papillons usually aren't a good combination with larger dogs. They break.
8. Most Papillons are very dependent. If you want an independent dog, don't get a Papillon. If you want a dog that follows you every where, including to the bathroom, it might work out.
9. Papillons are beginning to appear in puppy mills. Fortunately, most Papillon breeders are excellent and have a great love of the breed. However, it's important to check out the breeder and make sure that you are dealing with someone reputable. Never consider getting a Papillon from a pet store, where they are increasingly common.
10. Papillons are intense. They are highly intelligent and trainable. They are also sensitive, and some are shy. They will notice the smallest change in the environment, and bark an alert. They will jump 4 feet in the air if you look at their leash. They climb out of ex-pens and open cabinets. They get bored and throw their toys in your face until you play.

If you want an intelligent, portable, intense, dependent, busy, trainable toy dog, a Papillon just might be the right dog for you. If you want a quiet lap dog who is a couch potato, if you want a small children's pet, if you want a dog who doesn't care if you raise your voice -- you probably want a different breed.

Deborah Wood (author of "Little Dogs: Training Your Pint-Sized Companion," "Help for Your Shy Dog" and "The New Owner's Guide to Papillons."


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

every one else has commented on why some breeders are so expensive as to pther breeders. quality is key,



gracie_pie said:


> Mutts have very few health issues and tend to have longer, happier lives than purebreds. QUOTE]
> 
> This just wrong. if a dog who carries the gene for luxating pallets mates with another dog with the same gene (differnt breed) it still have a chance of getting this issues. mutts are not any healthier then any other dog. how do they live happier lives then a purebred? Any breed, mix orr unknown mix can live a amazing life or a terrible one. its all at the hands of the owner. all our dogs have lived amazing lives from what I would think (vet care, food, love, toys, long walks, hikes, beach trips, cottages ect) while the poor hound mix on the corner of our street is lucky to leave the back yard once a week for a 20mins walk, then goes inside the house to stay int he basment all alone.not a fun life


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## midnight mojo (Oct 7, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> Aside from the fact that they're so freaking cute I've never understood why. Puppies take an incredible amount of work vs adopting an adult dog or even a teenage dog.


Puppies are also very rewarding. I've also managed to avoid some of the issues that my last dog had and I attribute it to the amount of effort I've put into "raising" Mojo. My experience is limited and it very well may just be the way things have worked out, but I've found training a puppy to be substantially easier than retraining a dog.

Also, I haven't seen it mentioned yet, but part of what you are buying when you purchase a pup from a breeder is the support and experience of that breeder for the lifetime of the pup. If you are buying a pup from a breeder who isn't willing to be there for questions and support for the duration of the pup's life then I would strongly suggest you choose a different breeder.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

hulkamaniac said:


> I would definitely not argue with that. Aside from the fact that they're so freaking cute I've never understood why. Puppies take an incredible amount of work vs adopting an adult dog or even a teenage dog. I confess to once visiting a litter of basset puppies and being tempted to adopt them all. Fortunately the rational side of my brain was actually working that day.


Here are some reasons why I will always pick a puppy over an adult.

1. I'm able to check the parents to see if they are genetically well bred without any aggression issues.

2. No prior baggage or bad habits.

3. I housetrain them to how and when I want them to go.

4. I never have to wonder if they've been abused.

5. More life left in a puppy than an adult dog so training might be harder but will last more in the number of years.

6. The puppy bonding experience is something than can not be replicated with an adult dog.

7. You'll know every one of their habits and have a deep understanding of why they do certain things.

8. If not groomed properly at an early age certain breeds can have their coats ruined that can never be fully reversed.

9. I want a dog with a blank canvas that is ready to be painted.

10. Puppy pictures that will always be there.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Westhighlander said:


> Here are some reasons why I will always pick a puppy over an adult.
> 
> 1. I'm able to check the parents to see if they are genetically well bred without any aggression issues.
> 
> ...


^---Agree


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Westhighlander said:


> Here are some reasons why I will always pick a puppy over an adult.
> 
> 1. I'm able to check the parents to see if they are genetically well bred without any aggression issues.
> True. That can be nice. Though with a rescued adult you can often see whether or not there are with some basic tests. Even puppies can grow into aggression issues.
> ...


Yes that is true. I would have liked to see some of my adult dogs as puppies but not so much that I would have given up the experience of loving them for all the years we had together.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Westhighlander said:


> 2. No prior baggage or bad habits.


Yes but there's no greater satisfaction than owning a dog who once had "baggage" and "bad" habits and modifying them. 



> 3. I housetrain them to how and when I want them to go.


Adult dogs are not excluded from this.



> 4. I never have to wonder if they've been abused.


Why would you wonder about something you have no control over? 



> 5. More life left in a puppy than an adult dog so training might be harder but will last more in the number of years.


Last more? Learning is learning. Unless the dog's brain in turning into mush from age, the dog is a learning creature. 



> 6. The puppy bonding experience is something than can not be replicated with an adult dog.


Baloney! 



> 7. You'll know every one of their habits and have a deep understanding of why they do certain things.


I don't see why it would be a benefit to learn a dogs habits starting from puppyhood. Formative learning happens at all ages, including the guardian's learning. 



> 8. If not groomed properly at an early age certain breeds can have their coats ruined that can never be fully reversed.


I have no idea on this one, but I've seen few dogs who coats were "runied". Maybe not up to standard, but the dog doesn't know it's any less of a Diva in spite of their coat. 



> 9. I want a dog with a blank canvas that is ready to be painted.


Ahhh, paint is cheap, plus texture adds to the depth of the existence.



> 10. Puppy pictures that will always be there.


Only if you post them on DF!


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

The fact that purebreds have been bred for many years causes more and more defective genes. When paired up, the genes generally cause common health problems (hip displasia, knee cap displacement etc.) therefore shorter and more difficult lives (what I mean when I say happier). I have nothing against purebreds, but mutts DO tend to be much healthier genetically. You will almost never see a mutt with a short face like a pug, the bulging eyes of a Pickenese, or an extremely long body like a doxen because those features are known as deformities in the gene pool. Mutts end up with features more approprate for survival (unless inapropiatly mixed). There will be a few mutts that will have issues in their makeup, but not nearly as often as purebrds. I admit my statements were not 100% correct, but I didn't mean them to be. My intent was not meant to be 'factual', simply to add a general reply expressing how I believe mutts are a better choice. I appoligize for causing such a problem.

To sum it all up, mutts are_generally_ healthier than purebreds.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Yes but there's no greater satisfaction than owning a dog who once had "baggage" and "bad" habits and modifying them.
> 
> 
> Adult dogs are not excluded from this.
> ...


Adult dogs are not excluded from this. - Much harder to retrain an adult dog to potty on a pad if needed


Why would you wonder about something you have no control over? - But I do if it never was.


Last more? Learning is learning. Unless the dog's brain in turning into mush from age, the dog is a learning creature. - Let's say the dog is a large breed and you adopt them when they are 5 so they may only have 7 years left. 


Baloney! - Puppy messes and random pooping every few hours in the middle of the night can't be replicated! 


I don't see why it would be a benefit to learn a dogs habits starting from puppyhood. Formative learning happens at all ages, including the guardian's learning. - I find fixing things easier if I knew when and why it was broken. 


I have no idea on this one, but I've seen few dogs who coats were "runied". Maybe not up to standard, but the dog doesn't know it's any less of a Diva in spite of their coat. - Terriers for example can't be clipped if you want them to maintain a wired coat. Once you clipped them it may never come back the same and also may change in color.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

> The fact that purebreds have been bred for many years causes more and more defective genes. When paired up, the genes generally cause common health problems (hip displasia, knee cap displacement etc.) therefore shorter and more difficult lives (what I mean when I say happier). I have nothing against purebreds, but mutts DO tend to be much healthier genetically. You will almost never see a mutt with a short face like a pug, the bulging eyes of a Pickenese, or an extremely long body like a doxen because those features are known as deformities in the gene pool. Mutts end up with features more approprate for survival (unless inapropiatly mixed). There will be a few mutts that will have issues in their makeup, but not nearly as often as purebrds. I admit my statements were not 100% correct, but I didn't mean them to be. My intent was not meant to be 'factual', simply to add a general reply expressing how I believe mutts are a better choice. I appoligize for causing such a problem.


You're aware that the COI is not at toxic levels for _every_ pure breed, right? Some breeds are better off in that regard than others; you can't make sweeping generalizations about 'all pure bred dogs', because the purebred world is very 'tribal' and each breed has it's own club culture and leadership. Some are still in the dark ages, and some are very modern and willing to accept scientific advances. This also changes depending on which country you're in. There are many European kennel clubs that are actually far advanced in health screening and COI-control standards than the U.S. kennel clubs. Not everyone is at the same level.

Not _every _breed started out with such a tiny foundation population that they all have a high COI. And even then, individual breeders can either take that into account, or not. Breeding is not an authoritarian hobby -- nobody _forces_ breeders to do the right thing, or to only breed unrelated dogs. Some breeders DO linebreed in ridiculous amounts, and that's wrong. But if you ask anyone in the purebred world, you will hear many people in it with the same concerns about health and viability and many stories of people working to improve things where they can (sometimes even outcrossing). That should be done more, imo, but I believe that things are changing for the better overall, and there have always been good breeders that breed healthy, sound purebred dogs.


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

Tankstar said:


> every one else has commented on why some breeders are so expensive as to pther breeders. quality is key,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

We got our first dog 3 years ago. My hubby did a LOT of research into making sure we got the right breed for us. One that would fit our lifestyle. Of course, each dog is different but in general we knew what we were getting into...temperament wise, etc. This was very helpful as dog novices.

However, our new dog is 100% mutt. We do know some things about her personality because she is in a foster situation rather than a shelter and that's very important to us. She's an adult and I personally prefer adults because again, their personalities are pretty much formed and you know what you're getting into. Plus, well, puppies are just a LOT of work.

Both our purebred and our mutt (and our two cats) came from rescue. Selfishly, this is very gratifying to me. Knowing that a pet that was someone else's throw away - now has a happy life with us. I know I would not love any of them more if I had raised them from puppies or gotten them from a breeder.

My advice to you is research, research, and more research into the breed. Then, if you decide that the papillon is the right dog for you...go for it. But please do consider going through a rescue. And if you don't go through rescue, go through a REPUTABLE breeder not a backyard breeder for your pup.

Good luck!


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

gracie_pie said:


> Another thing. I have nothing against buying puppies from breeders, but I do not approve of so many people breeding when there a millions of dogs without homes. What is up with all the 'oops' litters??? Neuter your pet! Keep an eye on them, please! The only exception I can see is if you know where those puppies are going to be adopted to. Some people just need to be more considerate. Well, sorry for making everyone so upset.


Breeding is not the main reason dogs end up in shelters. Breeding is what makes there to be _any dogs alive at all_. It shouldn't be vilified. But people need to do it _responsibly_, just like anything else. 

Shelter population and kill rates have gone down dramatically in the past 25 years. What needs to be done now is to educate more people about *responsible dog ownership*, which includes s/n as well as proper training and behavior. 

Uncontrolled breeding HAS been going down -- 75% of owned dogs are already fixed (however, very few dogs that end up in shelters are fixed). In other words, the population problem in shelters is caused by an _irresponsible minority_, and very few animals (about 4 million dogs _and_ cats) end up dying in shelters annually. Most dogs (a total population of 75 million in the U.S.) _have_ homes. The shelter problem is not such that people _need_ to boycott buying dogs from (reputable) breeders.

Could more people adopt? Absolutely. Could more people s/n? Sure, but I think the percentage that don't right now are either ignorant, or else don't care about doing the right thing. All you can do with those folks is try to educate them and make affordable s/n more available.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

gracie_pie said:


> Cool down, I didn't intend to put anyone or any dog down. I've lived with purebreds all my life! I hardly meant a thing when I said 'happier'. Mutts DO tend to be healthier (a _healthy_ life is a _happy_ life, in my opinion)! It's all in their genetic makeup. Why is this so hard to believe??? Of course not every dog is mutt is going to be healthier than a purebred. Yes, I guess you could say it's the 'luck of the draw', but mutt's DO get the upper hand.


Could you explain exactly why you think they get the upper hand in a random selection of genetics?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

FilleBelle, great information! I think it's sometimes a misconception that smart breed = easy breed. Papillons are truly highly intelligent but they are very needy dogs. It's important to remember that they may pick up training easily but that doesn't mean you train less. They really thrive off of learning and mental games. 

Here's some more links to look up:
http://www.papillonclub.org/indexBreedInfo.htm



> The Papillon is generally outgoing and friendly, although how extroverted it will be with strangers varies with how it was raised. Both males and females make equally suitable pets, and of course, should always be neutered or spayed if not destined for the dog show ring. Papillons are generally very social with other animals, and make wonderful companions to other dogs--and cats too. A word of warning though--they ignore all size differential and will entice much larger dogs to play, often with disastrous results. Their preference is to be with people, not only to be cuddled in a lap, but to accompany walks, car trips, TV watching etc.
> 
> Papillons are active, lively dogs, although generally not nervous or yappy. They might alert you when someone is at the door but should quiet down immediately when that person has been admitted as a friend. Most Papillons retain their puppy playfulness to some degree throughout their lives. They travel well (car-sickness is rare), and enjoy the attention they draw wherever they go. A Papillon can change homes at any age and if suitably placed, will adjust happily.
> 
> ...


I think that's pretty good info too.

and this link: http://www.papillonclub.org/papillon_right_for_you.htm


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> Could you explain exactly why you think they get the upper hand in a random selection of genetics?


The higher diversity of a gene pool = less chance of matched recessive (disease) genes. She is right about that. However, not all purebred dogs have toxic levels of COI, so it's not applicable to say purebreds automatically have a higher disease load.


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

Pai said:


> Breeding is not the main reason dogs end up in shelters. Breeding is what makes there to be _any dogs alive at all_. It shouldn't be vilified. But people need to do it _responsibly_, just like anything else.
> 
> Shelter population and kill rates have gone down dramatically in the past 25 years. What needs to be done now is to educate more people about *responsible dog ownership*, which includes s/n as well as proper training and behavior.
> 
> ...


I never said breeding was the reason, I'm _fine_ with breeding. People are just _over_ breeding, and that's not something to support.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

gracie_pie said:


> I never said breeding was the reason, I'm _fine_ with breeding. People are just _over_ breeding, and that's not something to support.


Of course. Buying from a bad breeder contributes to dogs dying in shelters. Because _good_ breeders do not let their dogs end up there at all, and take great pains to ensure their dog's wellbeing and safety longterm.

That's why researching breeds and breeders is so important. It's the folks who don't do that, and who buy a dog from wherever without a care, that cause problems.


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

rosemaryninja said:


> Could you explain exactly why you think they get the upper hand in a random selection of genetics?


Could you have been more condescending? Please, research a little more before reply in such a way.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

gracie_pie said:


> Could you have been more condescending? Please, research a little more before reply in such a way.


How is asking you a question condescending? Do you need research a little?


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

gracie_pie said:


> Could you have been more condescending? Please, research a little more before reply in such a way.


What do you mean "reply in such a way"? There's nothing condescending about my post. Your sarcastic reply is as unwarranted as the nasty PM you sent me. I genuinely want to know why mutts are at an advantage because I literally don't know. Next time try answering my question before assuming that I'm out to shoot you down.


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## ladyshadowhollyjc (Oct 28, 2008)

FilleBelle said:


> Some interesting information:
> 
> Top 10 Reasons Why NOT to Own a Papillon!
> by Deborah Wood
> ...


Ohhh this is great I love it! 


Of my paps, my male is talkative. He barks just to hear himself sometimes I think. We've gotten it to a manageable level. I had to teach him "SHHHH!!!" (if I start to put my finger to my lips he hushes too... very cute). But I enjoy him talking to me. If I ask him if he's hungry or wants to go out he answers me. If it's a yes, he barks like crazy... if it's a no (which only happens if he doesn't want out) I might get maybe one or two barks. My female, barks when people come to the door or very occasionally when she's playing .

These dogs are not lap dogs. While, yes they do enjoy being in people's laps, they don't want to all them time. They need something to keep them busy. While mine would love nothing more than to jump up in someone's lap and give kisses, they can and do spend hours every day running with my Aussie.

Papillons are wonderful dogs. I could not imagine my life without one of these. But there is a lot more to the breed than a lot of people seem to think. If you decide on this breed make sure you know exactly what you're getting into. 

If you are really interested the Papillon breed, but not so sure about getting a purebred... check out the pap rescues. You might be able to find one that fits your lifestyle more than a puppy would.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

Stitch said:


> $1000 up front is a lot compared to a couple hundred every year in vet costs.
> 
> And in my opinion, $1000 is WAAAY too much for a dog... Period. For that kinda $$$ a dog better do a hell of a lot more than just pee, poop, bark and eat.


I paid $81 for Luna (adoption fee) and have since paid nearly $2000 IN TWO MONTHS TIME. Guess what? Not all health issues are spread out over a year's time. 

I'd much rather pay $1000 up front than $1000 in vet bills, even if it IS spread out over a year's time. You know why? The $1000 to the breeder is just money, while the $1000 to the vet is money, heartache, lost sleep, missed time from work (in my case this resulted in a lower paycheck because I used all my PTO), and worry. 

$1000 is reasonable for a purebred dog from a reputable breeder because the breeder has put nearly that much into the puppy (and the parents). In case you haven't noticed, the cost on everything has gone up, and that includes things like vet care. 



gracie_pie said:


> The fact that purebreds have been bred for many years causes more and more defective genes. When paired up, the genes generally cause common health problems (hip displasia, knee cap displacement etc.) therefore shorter and more difficult lives (what I mean when I say happier). I have nothing against purebreds, but mutts DO tend to be much healthier genetically. You will almost never see a mutt with a short face like a pug, the bulging eyes of a Pickenese, or an extremely long body like a doxen because those features are known as deformities in the gene pool. Mutts end up with features more approprate for survival (unless inapropiatly mixed). There will be a few mutts that will have issues in their makeup, but not nearly as often as purebrds. I admit my statements were not 100% correct, but I didn't mean them to be. My intent was not meant to be 'factual', simply to add a general reply expressing how I believe mutts are a better choice. I appoligize for causing such a problem.
> 
> To sum it all up, mutts are_generally_ healthier than purebreds.


People are getting worked up because they believe you are wrong, and so do I. The dog I talked about above is a MUTT.

After all, many mutts are just one purebred bred to a purebred of a different breed. You're telling me that if I breed a lab with HD to a Shepherd with HD, that dog will come out healthy because it's a mutt?

One should never generalize... "general" statements _generally_ (LOL) have no basis in fact.

If I'm looking purely at a health standpoint, I'd take a purebred from a reputable breeder any day over a mutt (whether the mutt is a product of two purebreds of different breeds or a good ol' Heinz57).

I love Luna with all my heart and soul but my next dog will be a purebred from a reputable breeder. Even if something _does_ go wrong, I have the support/advice of the breeder and you can't put a price tag on that.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> Here are some reasons why I will always pick a puppy over an adult.
> 
> 1. I'm able to check the parents to see if they are genetically well bred without any aggression issues.


Yet you don't *know* this with a pup. Even with two non-aggressive parents a puppy can grow up to be aggressive. With an adult, I know if the dog is aggressive.



> 2. No prior baggage or bad habits.


Meh. We all have baggage. Personally, I enjoy the challenge of working with my dogs. I've seen numerous posts on here and other forums where people struggle with training a puppy because the pup happily pees in his crate. This isn't a bad habit?



> 3. I housetrain them to how and when I want them to go.


I see no reason why you can't do this with an adult dog. People do it on here all the time. As a matter of fact, adults are easier to house train for the simple reason that they can actually control their bladders and bowels while pups cannot. 



> 4. I never have to wonder if they've been abused.


Why would you wonder this in the first place? If my dog has an issue I don't sit around wondering if they've been abused or not, I simply address the issue. Dogs aren't humans and they don't spend their lives laying around wishing their parents had done a better job raising them. They just live in the moment.



> 5. More life left in a puppy than an adult dog so training might be harder but will last more in the number of years.


If you can tell me how much longer my dog will live I will pay you quite handsomely. There are no guarantees in life. I have a 1.5 year old spaniel and a 10 year old basset hound. You would think that the spaniel will easily outlive the basset, but the spaniel could run in front of a car today or come down with a terminal disease tomorrow. Life offers no guarantees for us humans, much less for our canine friends.



> 6. The puppy bonding experience is something than can not be replicated with an adult dog.


Bullsh*t and Poppycock. The less said about this the better.



> 7. You'll know every one of their habits and have a deep understanding of why they do certain things.


With a puppy there is a learning period where you learn their habits and they learn yours. The same goes for adult dogs as well. Again, I couldn't care less *why* a dog does something, my concern is if the dog *should* do it. I don't see why a "deep understanding" is necessary. My dog likes to get on counters. Does the reason why he does this make any difference as to whether I consider it an appropriate behavior or not?



> 8. If not groomed properly at an early age certain breeds can have their coats ruined that can never be fully reversed.


I have never owned a breed that would fall into this category so I can't speak to it. I personally have never seen a dog that I would consider having a "ruined coat". I simply can't speak to this point.



> 9. I want a dog with a blank canvas that is ready to be painted.


And I want a dog that won't wake me up at 3 am for the first year and who won't chew everything in sight and who's adult size I already know so I can plan appropriately and is already house broken so I don't have to deal with that, and who already has some basic obedience training. That's just me though. I'd rather step in and fill in the final pieces of the painting, finish the masterpiece and get to take full credit for it.



> 10. Puppy pictures that will always be there.


This we agree on. Puppies are pretty dang cute.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> FilleBelle, great information!


I'm glad to see that some actual Pap owners think that's good info. I like Paps, myself, and have been doing a lot of research on them in case I should decide one will be my next dog.


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

I have to say, I'm all about purebred dogs. After reading Ian Dunbar and the Monks of New Skete, I'm convinced that the best way to go is a purebred puppy from a reputable breeder. 

Issues can start very early in life; would you want an 8 week old puppy that had to live on the street and has already learned that people are evil? 

Not that bad things can't happen to puppies from excellent breeders, but you have a much greater chance of having a happy, healthy canine companion. 

Now- not everyone cares about that, and SOME people LOVE the challenge of a problem dog. They love the feeling you get when you make small baby steps towards turning the dog into a better companion. 

My boyfriend is one of these people. If his dog is able to meet another dog with out showing teeth and snapping or lunging, she gets a treat and he gets TRULY excited by this. And yes, she is a rescue mutt in case you were wondering. 

I'll be honest here- I don't want that. 

I want a dog that I can go anywhere with and not have to worry about the dog having a melt down because she is so terrified and overwhelmed. I want a dog I can show, or do agility with. 

I want a dog I can trust around kids and take to new and strange places and the dog won't bat an eye. 

Does that make me selfish? Sure. You could look at it that way. I know my limits and I know what I want.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

There seems to be a general confusion about what to expect from a purebred vs a mutt, or from a shelter dog vs one from a breeder or from a pup vs an adult.

We're all presenting our purely anecdotal "evidence" so I'll offer mine. The best dog I've ever had, or expect to have, came to us after a horribly abusive history. He was possibly all lab, but we'll never know. He was 4-5 when we got him. He wasn't a "project." He was the easiest-to-train creature I've ever encountered - just naturally eager to please and very, very quick.

I have no problem with a purebred from a good breeder but, since I have no particular breed preference, and generally gravitate toward adult dogs (with a special place in my heart for seniors) I'm likely to continue getting shelter and rescue dogs. 

There are some very legitimate reasons for getting a dog from a breeder, but I'm hearing some terribly lame ones here as well.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

Availeth said:


> Okay, thank you all for your very great responses. You've made me re-think things a little and ask myself some questions.
> 
> The reason I want a dog is basically cuz I'm lonely. I'm 52 years old, single, and just had my heart broken a month ago.


I got my first pet (a rescued cat) when I was 29 yo, single and lonely and have had five more since then (at different times) so I get you completely. As it happens I adopted my first dog, a difficult cocker from the pound, at the age of 52, albeit I was married then and not really lonely  However, our dogs (the cocker passed last year) have really helped bring my wife and closer together and given me something to do with my spare time that gets me outdoors. So I think you're making a great decision.

If you hold on to the positive reasons for getting a dog, the right one will come along. Since you haven't had a dog before I would give you this advice (which I didn't heed myself years ago): if someone tells you a dog is difficult, or a challenge, or for an "experienced" owner, do think twice. Our cocker was returned to the pound twice for guarding and fear aggression issues and was about to go into rescue when I insisted on adopting him.

Over the years I never had much trouble with Dylan although I recognized his potential for bad behavior. However Dylan gave my wife a very hard time and in retrospect we should have gotten a "softer" dog like the one we have now. Of course, Benji has been a pain to housetrain while Dylan could hold it forever so everything is relative.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Sammgirl said:


> I have to say, I'm all about purebred dogs. After reading Ian Dunbar and the Monks of New Skete, I'm convinced that the best way to go is a purebred puppy from a reputable breeder.
> 
> Issues can start very early in life; would you want an 8 week old puppy that had to live on the street and has already learned that people are evil?
> 
> ...


I think you're working on a bad assumption about shelter dogs. All shelter dogs are not abused dogs. All shelter dogs are not problem dogs. All shelter dogs are not dogs with issues. I adopted a cocker spaniel from a shelter who has obviously been very well socialized, was already house broken and prefers to spend his time indoors sleeping on the kitchen floor. He was already crate trained as well, walked on a leash with some issues and already knew how to sit. All of this when I got him. He gets along fine with both children and adults. (With proper supervision around the kids of course.) I've had no issues with him at all. Are all shelter dogs that way? Not at all. There are some who have issues, but there are some with no issues as well. It's the same way with purebreds. Some are poorly bred, poorly socialized, whatever and have issues that must be worked out. Others have no issues at all. It all depends on the dog. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that shelter dogs are all problem dogs and that purebreds from breeders are not.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

I'm glad friends are razzing the OP about wanting a pure breed and that they should rescue a dog. It's nice to think public opinion may be swinging that direction and having a pound puppy is more socially desirable than a puppy mill or BYB dog.

That said, I personally prefer pure breeds and will never make any apologies for prefering my pure bred sighthounds. They fit with my lifesytle, I prefer their temperament, look and I like to do things with my dogs that require them to be a specific breed. I don't think that's really any different than someone who prefers mutts because they're mutts. One's not better or worse, just different preference.

As for the price of a dog from a breeder....if you can't afford it, you can't afford it. But a $1500 one time price for a well bred dog from health-tested, temperament-tested parents is nothing in the grand scheme of what a dog can cost you. 

I will always prefer an adult dog to a puppy. Puppy's are cute, but not worth the work, IMO. There is a major advantage to being able to assess the personality and temperament of an adult dog. And bonding....heck, I've adopted SENIOR dogs (10+) that have bonded to me just as closely as any other dog I've had, whether I had it as a puppy or not. DH adopted a 12 year old greyhound that worshipped him...that old gal used to give me the stink eye like you wouldn't believe (when DH and I first met/married). She did grow to love me, but she was always a daddys girl.


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

And maybe it's just a crap shoot. Who knows? Bottom line is that people like what they like, and they'll always find reasons (whether lame or not) to keep liking it.

Oh, I know that not all pure breds have great temperments. I've known some purebred labs that I'm honestly afraid of. One lives beside me. 

Even with in breeders, there are bad, mediocher, and excellent decisions that can be made. 

I just think that its easier on a new buyer if they know what they're getting, if they're considering a puppy. 

Facing facts, with a shelter dog there is a certain amount of risk involved. 

BTW- I think that greyhound rescue is a very cool thing. I like to raise a dog from the ground up, but IF I was ever going to rescue, it would be a retired greyhound.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

I'm new to both this forum and dog ownership, but this is what I concluded from my research before I got my dog:

1. The Purebred vs Mutt argument comes down to a question of peaks vs medians. Mutts trend towards the median with less variation; purebreds trend towards the outliers, both positive and negative.
2. If you get a purebred dog, it's worth paying the extra money to a reputable breeder. Inbreeding is indeed a big problem with purebreds, but the good breeders already know about it and have taken steps to deal with it. The less reputable breeders have not, and often produce good-looking pups with hidden health issues down the road. If you're in doubt, ask to see the genealogical record - a good breeder will have this for at least three generations on either side of the family. 
3. Mutts are less likely to have the health problems caused by inbreeding because they're less likely to have two parents with the same disorder. However, two unhealthy parents are likely to have unhealthy children, regardless of their breed, and two healthy parents can each carry a recessive trait that is expressed in their children. Remember - we're talking probabilities, not absolutes. 
4. Breeders select out genetic disorders in purebreds by isolating problem bloodlines; nature selects out genetic disorders in mutts by sheer numbers. Neither method is perfect.
5. Show dogs are mainly selected for looks, not behavior or temperment. Physical appearance is obvious from birth, but behavior is often not fully expressed until years later - often after the dog has already bred and passed its genes to another generation.
6. Breeders that specialize in sporting/working dogs - for hunters, rescue, law eforcement, etc. - necessarily select for behavior before looks. _In general_, these breeders produce healthier dogs because their target market puts health & temperment at a premium over appearance.
6a. Service dogs that don't pass their training are made available for adoption, and often make excellent pets. Just because a dog can't lead a blind man through a busy intersection doesn't mean it's dumb or untrainable. I know some humans who would have just as much trouble. 
7. To reiterate: probabilities, not absolutes. Randomness happens. A lot.

In the end, I adopted an adult mutt, and I think I made the right choice for myself. The key word here is 'myself'. 

There is no perfect dog, only perfect dogs. The only real advice anyone can give you is to (1) be clear on what you want out of a dog, (2) be absolutely honest about what you can offer your dog, (3) research carefully, and (4) be prepared for the unexpected.


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## Jessieanne (Feb 8, 2009)

I have a mutt my husband baught him for $500 I almost killed him for spending that much even thou I cant imagine my life with out him. Any way he is a shitzu (however you spell it) bishon. Both are supposibly hard to potty train and just train in general. He knew 6 tricks at the age of 9 weeks and he is almost fully house broken! If I had the money I would have gotten a pap myself. I think they are beautiful dogs. I am an animal love so it really doesnt matter to my purbreed or no I'm gonna love them.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

Independent George said:


> 4. Show dogs are mainly selected for looks, not behavior or temperment. Physical appearance is obvious from birth, but behavior is often not fully expressed until years later - often after the dog has already bred and passed its genes to another generation.


Umm... I don't show or own a show dog, so I'm not entirely certain, but I DO know that any good breeder breeds for confirmation, behavior, and health. 

If you check out the AKC website you'll see behavioral qualifications under each breed standard... which means show breeders HAVE to pay attention to temperament if they hope to win. 

Same goes for health. What good is a nice looking dog if it's going to be lame/die early, etc.

IMO, good show breeders are interested in A LOT more than just a pretty face.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Sammgirl said:


> I just think that its easier on a new buyer if they know what they're getting, if they're considering a puppy.
> 
> Facing facts, with a shelter dog there is a certain amount of risk involved.


It's easier on any buyer if they know what they're getting, but you never know what you're getting when you get a pup. You don't know how big the dog is going to get, what his adult temperament will be like or any of those things. With an adult you know exactly what you're getting or at the very least you can get a rough idea.

There is a risk with a shelter dog, but no more than the risk with any other dog. It's not any riskier picking up a puppy at a shelter than it is picking up a puppy at a breeder.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> It's easier on any buyer if they know what they're getting, but you never know what you're getting when you get a pup. You don't know how big the dog is going to get, what his adult temperament will be like or any of those things. With an adult you know exactly what you're getting or at the very least you can get a rough idea.
> 
> There is a risk with a shelter dog, but no more than the risk with any other dog. It's not any riskier picking up a puppy at a shelter than it is picking up a puppy at a breeder.


Not riskier, but it's a lot less certain. No, you never know what a pup will be when it grows up but by going with a purebred from a good breeder you have a much better chance of getting what you want in a puppy- I agree that adults are a whole other ballgame. 

That's not to say pups from shelters are bad, they're just not as predictable as ones from breeders. Sure, Bernard is a bit of a different size (small) and temperament than I thought but he still has most the papillon characteristics. (Mainly missing out on the trainability factor) If I had gone to the pound and picked out a puppy (even a small breed one) the likelihood I'd have gotten the papillon characteristics I like would be a lot less. 

If I wanted a performance dog to raise from a puppy it'd be a lot smarter to get one from a breeder whose dogs can perform at the level I want. The same goes for temperament traits if a certain temperament is important to you. Of course it *may* not be exactly what you bargain for, nothing is when you are talking live animals. If all puppies are the same then breed wouldn't mean anything and it really does. I'm not going to go pick out a random shelter pup if I want a dog to do stockwork. There's a good chance it won't work. If I want a dog to do stockwork then I go to a breeder that works their dogs on stock.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Not riskier, but it's a lot less certain. No, you never know what a pup will be when it grows up but by going with a purebred from a good breeder you have a much better chance of getting what you want in a puppy- I agree that adults are a whole other ballgame.
> 
> That's not to say pups from shelters are bad, they're just not as predictable as ones from breeders. Sure, Bernard is a bit of a different size (small) and temperament than I thought but he still has most the papillon characteristics. (Mainly missing out on the trainability factor) If I had gone to the pound and picked out a puppy (even a small breed one) the likelihood I'd have gotten the papillon characteristics I like would be a lot less.
> 
> If I wanted a performance dog to raise from a puppy it'd be a lot smarter to get one from a breeder whose dogs can perform at the level I want. The same goes for temperament traits if a certain temperament is important to you. Of course it *may* not be exactly what you bargain for, nothing is when you are talking live animals. If all puppies are the same then breed wouldn't mean anything and it really does. I'm not going to go pick out a random shelter pup if I want a dog to do stockwork. There's a good chance it won't work. If I want a dog to do stockwork then I go to a breeder that works their dogs on stock.


I know what you're saying and I actually agree with you to a certain extent. I think with puppies it's a crap shoot whether you go to the pound or a good breeder. If you're looking for a dog to do work that's a little different than what the OP is wanting. She's looking for a companion animal as most people on this forum probably are. The criteria for "companion animal" is a little different than "working dog" although I would contend that you can find a very good working dog at the pound sometimes.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> I know what you're saying and I actually agree with you to a certain extent. I think with puppies it's a crap shoot whether you go to the pound or a good breeder. If you're looking for a dog to do work that's a little different than what the OP is wanting. She's looking for a companion animal as most people on this forum probably are. The criteria for "companion animal" is a little different than "working dog" although I would contend that you can find a very good working dog at the pound sometimes.


I know you could find a good worker in the pound but if I were really serious about it, I would go with either an adult or a breeder dog.

I would also add that even in companion breeds, they each have very different characteristics. If the OP knew why they wanted a papillon over other breeds then there would be legitimate reason to pursue a papillon over other breeds. I know papillons make the best companions for me and while other dog breeds are also good companions, they are not what I am looking for. 

It all comes down to what you want in a dog and why. (Which we haven't heard from the OP really)


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Personally, I'm not real selective about breed. My house is small so size is an issue. I also want a dog who can spend some time outside so, again, size is an issue. Aside from this what appeals to me about a dog is a certain energy level which you can find in any breed. I've met adult basset hounds who refused to stay still and I've met adult labs who hated to get up and do anything.


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

Ha, I'm very sorry for that... I get a little testy sometimes and go a little overboard when i'm cranky. As you can see I get a little defensive about my mutts! Sorry sorry sorry to evryone. Please forgive me

Ha, I'm very sorry (and embarassed)... I get a little testy sometimes and go a little overboard when i'm cranky. As you can see I get a little defensive about my mutts! Sorry sorry sorry to everyone. Please forgive me


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

RonE said:


> There are some very legitimate reasons for getting a dog from a breeder, but I'm hearing some terribly lame ones here as well.


One man's lame is another man's logic. 



hulkamaniac said:


> Personally, I'm not real selective about breed. My house is small so size is an issue. I also want a dog who can spend some time outside so, again, size is an issue. Aside from this what appeals to me about a dog is a certain energy level which you can find in any breed. I've met adult basset hounds who refused to stay still and I've met adult labs who hated to get up and do anything.


That's why you don't prefer pure breeds from a reputable breeder. But many people, myself included, want something specific to their needs.


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> People are getting worked up because they believe you are wrong, and so do I. The dog I talked about above is a MUTT.
> 
> After all, many mutts are just one purebred bred to a purebred of a different breed. You're telling me that if I breed a lab with HD to a Shepherd with HD, that dog will come out healthy because it's a mutt?
> 
> ...


Like I have said before not every mutt is going to be healthier than a purebred, but mutts _do_have fewer health issues. If a lab with HD and a Shepherd with HD were mixed, that mutt still has a very good chance of being healthy because of the larger gene pool selection. Not saying all purebreds are sickly, because they arn't. There are many, many very healthy purebreds (my past dogs were very healthy purebreds and I loved them to death <3). However, there is a better chance of getting a healthy mutt than a healthy purebred. 
I don't know how any other shelters are, but the ones in my area gave (and are still giving) the support and help I needed. If something does go wrong, I have their support/advice. 
Could you explain why you plan to get a purebred for your next dog? I promise I will try not to contradict you reasons 

P.S. I again apoloize for my previous rude behavior!  sorry sorry sorry


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

gracie_pie said:


> P.S. I again apoloize for my previous rude behavior!  sorry sorry sorry


Don't let it happen again.  I kid, I kid!!! 

Really, no worries, we all tend to get worked up from time to time...


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

gracie_pie said:


> If a lab with HD and a Shepherd with HD were mixed, that mutt still has a very good chance of being healthy because of the larger gene pool selection.


Hmm.. I don't really follow this. Is there any scientific basis to this? I'm not trying to be rude... just genuinely asking a question because I hadn't heard this particular argument before. (re: the larger gene pool selection). How can you be sure that the lab wasn't horribly inbred, and the shepherd wasn't horribly inbred?



> Could you explain why you plan to get a purebred for your next dog? I promise I will try not to contradict you reasons


LOL, feel free to contradict them. This is a forum, after all, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.

First of all, I have nothing against mutts. I love mutts! Some of our best dogs we when I was growing up have been mutts.  I would never try to discourage anyone from adopting a mutt, just like I wouldn't try to discourage someone from buying a purebred from a reputable breeder.

I've researched a lot of breeds and have decided to get an Australian Shepherd. 

1. I plan on doing agility, and Aussies excel in this. (yes, mutts can excel in agility too... but I've fallen in love with Aussies!)
2. The breeder I'm working with health tests all her dogs, and has had a successful litter in the past (no health/temperament issues) from this same cross. They are also proven in the ring and in agility.
3. The breeder I'm working with matches her dogs to the owners, meaning she will pick the pup that is most suited for me. 
4. If I buy a pup from her, I have essentially become part of her "family" and she will always be there for me to answer any questions I might have and will be there for moral support. ;-)
5. I know her pups have a great start in life and are properly socialized.

The health issue is a big one for me. We've been through a lot with Luna, and next the vet wants us to test her hips (one leg is considerably stronger than the other).


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

gracie_pie said:


> Like I have said before not every mutt is going to be healthier than a purebred, but mutts _do_have fewer health issues. If a lab with HD and a Shepherd with HD were mixed, that mutt still has a very good chance of being healthy because of the larger gene pool selection.


That makes no sense. If two dogs share the same genes, chances are much greater that their pups will share those genes as well. Breed doesn't matter, if two dogs carry the same disease then the pups are at a great risk of being affected. Prior genes don't matter, the genes the parents actually have do.

The idea of mutts being healthier is that if you take two completely random dogs then the chance they have or carry the same disease are lessened. That is very true. However, I think once you get breeds that have very similar issues in them then you might not increase your odds at all. Shepherds and goldens both have HD a lot. If you mix random shepherds to random goldens will the pups be less likely to have HD than a random shepherd pup or a random golden pup? I dunno. I don't think anyone does. If you cross an English Bulldog with a pug, will the propensity for breathing problems decrease? Of course widening the gene pool by adding a different breed that doesn't suffer from the same issues could really help with genetic diseases. But there are no guarantees in genetics.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> That's why you don't prefer pure breeds from a reputable breeder. But many people, myself included, want something specific to their needs.


That's fair enough. However, the original poster was looking for a companion animal. I'm kind of going out on the limb here, but I would guess the majority of people on this forum have dogs primarily as companion animals. They're not looking to win awards or medals or have their dogs perform particular jobs. In the case of the OP she's looking for a companion to which I argue that a mutt is as good as a purebred and an adult is better than a puppy in that circumstance.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

hulkamaniac said:


> That's fair enough. However, the original poster was looking for a companion animal. I'm kind of going out on the limb here, but I would guess the majority of people on this forum have dogs primarily as companion animals. They're not looking to win awards or medals or have their dogs perform particular jobs. In the case of the OP she's looking for a companion to which I argue that a mutt is as good as a purebred and an adult is better than a puppy in that circumstance.


My dog is just a pet - for now at least. I just wanted a westie because I liked how they look and their personality. What's wrong with that?


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> One man's lame is another man's logic.
> 
> 
> 
> That's why you don't prefer pure breeds from a reputable breeder. But many people, myself included, want something specific to their needs.





Westhighlander said:


> My dog is just a pet - for now at least. I just wanted a westie because I liked how they look and their personality. What's wrong with that?


Again, fair enough. You mentioned wanting a purebred because you were wanting one for a specific reason I assumed it was to perform a certain job like you used in an example earlier. I will say that you can find mongrels that do look like one particular breed over another and I've found that you can find personality traits you want in any dog regardless of heritage.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

hulkamaniac said:


> Again, fair enough. You mentioned wanting a purebred because you were wanting one for a specific reason I assumed it was to perform a certain job like you used in an example earlier. I will say that you can find mongrels that do look like one particular breed over another and I've found that you can find personality traits you want in any dog regardless of heritage.



I am a huge fan of rescue. I think that most peoples "need for a dog" can be met by dogs found in rescues/humane societies. I am not against good breeders at all however, as I think there is also a need for dogs bred for specific tasks. If we tossed out all "good breeders" and just let all dogs breed Willy nilly it would be much more difficult for people to find the "right dog for them" 
Size would be much harder to determine in a puppy. You might end up with a 100 pound dog when you really only wanted a 40-50 pound dog. You might want a dog that can run with you 7 miles a day and end up with a couch potato. What about people that have allergies and want a low shed dog? No way to control that without selective breeding of dogs? If you want a guard dog, hunting dog, earth dog, agility dog etc.... It is much easier to get a dog that was bred for that purpose. 
Now, if we could only get the other million bad breeders to give it up and people with less specific needs to see the worth of the dogs in shelters/ rescues we would be in a doggy paradise. All dogs would have homes.

Before anyone bursts my bubble ... It is my dream, let me have it. 

I think the one thought that keeps me seeing the "worth" in the adult dog in the shelter or humane societies is this... If I died or something happened and my dog ended up in the shelter or rescue, wouldn't I want someone to give him a chance? I mean my old dog is not even 4 yet, and my young one and a half. They have a LOT of life in them. If everyone wanted puppies, they would have to be killed at such a young life with all that they have to offer lost.  Everyone of those dogs in shelters is promise that is lost. IMO


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

nikelodeon79 said:


> Hmm.. I don't really follow this. Is there any scientific basis to this? I'm not trying to be rude... just genuinely asking a question because I hadn't heard this particular argument before. (re: the larger gene pool selection). How can you be sure that the lab wasn't horribly inbred, and the shepherd wasn't horribly inbred?
> 
> 
> LOL, feel free to contradict them. This is a forum, after all, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.
> ...


First off, I LOVE aussies! My austrailian sheperd, Niki, passed away about 3 years ago and I still miss her terribly. They are very kind dogs, always there for you when you need them. Plus they're probably the most beautiful dog breeds I can think of 
Second, i've read many _many_ articles on the larger gene pools, and still don't completely understand them. I know that different dogs have defective genes in different places, therefore when you mix two dogs, defective genes are paired with non-defective genes, making the dog healthier than it's parents. If mutts are bread with different mutts, those defects are less and less common (don't quote me on that) I found a lot of articles on line as well. You can even google mutts vs. purebreds and come up with hundreds of results (almost all leaning towards the idea that mutts are genetically healthier) If you breed dogs with the same problems, well, i'm pretty sure it works like this:

Say we mix a dog with hip dysplasia (HD) and respitory problems (RP) with a dog that also has HD and cataracts (C)
DG= defective gene
DG + DG
DG + G 
DG + G
Thus the mutt has less problems than if one of the dogs above were to mutiply with his or her own kind.

Good luck with your sweet puppy dog! 



Laurelin said:


> That makes no sense. If two dogs share the same genes, chances are much greater that their pups will share those genes as well. Breed doesn't matter, if two dogs carry the same disease then the pups are at a great risk of being affected. Prior genes don't matter, the genes the parents actually have do.
> 
> The idea of mutts being healthier is that if you take two completely random dogs then the chance they have or carry the same disease are lessened. That is very true. However, I think once you get breeds that have very similar issues in them then you might not increase your odds at all. Shepherds and goldens both have HD a lot. If you mix random shepherds to random goldens will the pups be less likely to have HD than a random shepherd pup or a random golden pup? I dunno. I don't think anyone does. If you cross an English Bulldog with a pug, will the propensity for breathing problems decrease? Of course widening the gene pool by adding a different breed that doesn't suffer from the same issues could really help with genetic diseases. But there are no guarantees in genetics.


I get the majority of my information from online articles. I've said it before and I'll say it again, not all mutts will be healthier than purebreds, but the majority of them are. I'm really worn out about this topic, but please, try google! It is a great way to get a wide variety of opinions on the whole 'mutts are healthier' idea.
<3 your dog!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

gracie_pie said:


> I'm really worn out about this topic, but please, try google!


Ahh yes, Google, the bathroom wall of the internets. A great place for information.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm a fan of mutts, but I'm not sure I buy into the "mutts are healthier" argument. I think a poorly bred mutt is going to have the same problems as a poorly bred purebred and a well bred mutt will be just as healthy as a well bred purebred.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

How would you define a "well bred mutt."

I'm a fan of mutts, but that sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Well-bred implies deliberate, careful breeding, health testing and screening and some history. My mutts are more "who's your daddy" dogs and luck-of-the-draw.

So far, I've been exceedingly lucky.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

gracie_pie said:


> I get the majority of my information from online articles. I've said it before and I'll say it again, not all mutts will be healthier than purebreds, but the majority of them are. I'm really worn out about this topic, but please, try google! It is a great way to get a wide variety of opinions on the whole 'mutts are healthier' idea.
> <3 your dog!


This specifically is what I was talking about:



> If a lab with HD and a Shepherd with HD were mixed, that mutt still has a very good chance of being healthy because of the larger gene pool selection.


How??? I understand if you pick two random dogs, the likelihood of them both having HD is less than say a German Shepherd (the argument could be though that it's greater than picking two random papillons where HD is basically nonexistent).

However, if the dogs both actually HAVE HD, then what does breed matter? It doesn't. If they are the same breed or different breeds the outcome of a HD x HD mating will be similar either way. (Well, in theory, HD seems to be a pretty complex inheritance) 

Google is all well and dandy but you can find proof for anything on google. I'm not arguing that genetic variation is good for a population but rather that one statement above. 

ETA: I just want to add that I'm coming from this as an ex-GENE major perspective. I did change majors for a reason (after two years of genetics classes) but most of those reasons were the processes at the protein level. I like inheritance and studying that in large animals/plants, just don't really care about all the protein modifiers, etc.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Papillion Question: I'm usually a large dog owner - Labs, etc., so I don't think that I would own a Pap ... since they break 

But from the personality, intensity, and intelligence, could you make a comparison between Paps and Border Collies (other than size) ?

Thanks,
Hank Simon


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

RonE said:


> How would you define a "well bred mutt."
> 
> I'm a fan of mutts, but that sounds like an oxymoron to me.
> 
> ...


A well-bred purebred has parents who are genetically fit and healthy. In my mind a well-bred mutt would have the same. The difference is the parents weren't deliberately chosen.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

I've said this before, but... I'm a first time dog owner. We had some very specific requirements for dogs in our household: size, ability to get along with cats, ease of training for newbies, etc. The collies fit our bill exactly, so we went with a breeder. 

Being a dog newbie I'd never heard of breed specific rescues. It wasn't until I joined here that I learned about them. I also didn't know that a lot of shelters evaluated their animals for temperment. I just pictured basically dog jail, like they show in commercials. So I never considered a shelter dog. I believe that I'm not alone in this. People know about shelters to some extent, pet stores and breeders. They may not know about other possibilities that would also work for them or that shelters may have more information than just "it's a dog".

If I got another dog, and my requirements were the same, I would probably look for a breed rescue. But for now I'm very glad we went with a breeder. She's been an invaluable resource for any questions I've had about our dogs and collies in general.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

hanksimon said:


> Papillion Question: I'm usually a large dog owner - Labs, etc., so I don't think that I would own a Pap ... since they break
> 
> But from the personality, intensity, and intelligence, could you make a comparison between Paps and Border Collies (other than size) ?
> 
> ...


I think you can and then you can't, if that makes sense. Papillons are nicknamed the border collie of the toy world for a reason. I don't have a border collie -yet- but I plan on having one sometime in the future, maybe my next dog or if not the one after. I have had a lot of herding type dogs and notice the papillons tend to attract people who like the herding dogs. I see a lot of people with paps and GSDs, BCs, Shelties, and Aussies especially. 

Both breeds are highly intelligent and in a similar fashion. They are very intuitive and handler oriented dogs who are easily trained by a good consistent positive trainer and easily shut down by overly harsh methods. Both breeds want to be with their people and be involved more than anything in the world. They're very quick thinking dogs and eager problem solvers. They're always amazing me with what they come up with.

They are both about the fastest dogs in their height if you do agility. Both extremely athletic and agile, papillons surprisngly so for their size. Papillons can actually run as fast (or even beat on some occasions) border collie times on an agility course. Both breeds are top competition dogs in many venues and are very versatile. This just has to do with intelligence and biddability imo. (Athleticism doesn't hurt either)

However (and big however) border collies are working dogs and papillons are companions. I think the best came from a border collie/papillon owner is that while papillons _want_ to work, border collies _need_ to work. That's a big big difference.

Also on that same line, if you've had herding breeds you know that they have a lot of quirks. Paps are quirky but not in the same way. They're not nearly as motion sensitive or as prone to OCD. 

Also, size is a big difference. That sounds obvious but a border collie that is bored is going to be a lot bigger destructive force than a pap that is bored. (Though I have lost several things to Nard's boredom) Also, My paps can zoom around the house without knocking things over, lol.

Papillons are also generally not nearly as serious as a border collie. In some ways I wish people would say they're like the aussie of the toy world because of that. I do have one papillon that thinks everything is a serious matter. She's basically a border collie in miniature but the boys are more like aussies, imo. 

Compared to bcs and herders paps are more outgoing. Herding breeds often like their people and don't really care about others. Paps tend to love every human they meet.

Paps also seem to have a more variable amount of drive. Some are very intense, highly driven, very active dogs, others are fine being couch potatoes. My dogs are personally on the active and driven end of this continuum. The same can be said of border collies, of course depending on the line but not as much as papillons. On the flip side, I think it's rarer to have a papillon that doesn't turn off whereas certain bc lines will have little to no off switch. For the most part my dogs can chill all day if I need to. There are days though that Summer must be exercised very extensively because she's being a spaz that day.

So in all they have a lot of the same characteristics which I personally adore- intelligence, biddability, drive, high energy, etc. But it'd be a fallacy to get one thinking it'll be a mini bc or to get a bc thinking it'll be a papillon. I do think that comparing them to miniature border collies does help the breed because if you're not around them you'd probably think of them as foo foo dogs which they are not in any way, shape, or form.

Okay that was long! Sorry!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Re: "well bred mutt." Isn't a well bred mutt called a designer dog, today 

I have also always had mutts and been very lucky, because you never know. There is a term called "hybrid vigor" which implies that introduction of new genes outisde of the existing pool will result in a stronger result.

However, you never know what you're getting with mutts. Moreover, a very high quality, professional breeder will always bring in new blood into their lines, taking advantage of hybrid vigor within the conformation.

I currently have a very sweet 8 year old Retriever mix rescue. For the first 7 years, we thought he was a Golden mix because of his "lack of goofiness" extreme intelligent, and Golden color. To the average eye, he looks like a cross between a Golden and a Chow. 

However, a more experienced eye recognized the result of a a Lab mix, with a GSD... and if you look pictures on Google, what you find are twins of my dog, looking like a Ridgeback. You never know what you get with a mutt.

Plus, when I got him, I noticed that he was a little sensitive to noise, so I worked extensively on training him through that, before it could become a problem. I trained him to accept "patting" (as opposed to stroking), poking, and gentle tail pulling, so he would tolerate kids (as well as my normal torture . 

He also tolerates being shocked - we have lots of static electricity, and it is a normal part of most days. My previous dog got upset when he got a snoot-full of sparks, because I tried to shiled and protect him.... I learned, and trained this one not to get anxious about the near everyday occurance. 

Finally, although he loves attention, stroking, and massages, my dog jumps if I "touch" him. So, even if he watches me, when I first start to pet him on his chest or kidneys, he jerks, then relaxes. I can see that this would have been a significantly different outcomes with a different owner, especially one that coddles dogs.

My point is that experience, good training, and conditioning form a large part of what the dog grows into regardless or pure and pedigreed mutt, or Heinz-57 mutt...

- Hank Simon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurelin 
... Papillons are nicknamed the border collie of the toy world for a reason. I don't have a border collie -yet- but I plan on having one sometime in the future, ...
Okay that was long! Sorry! 

No, that was perfect. Exactly what I was looking for. I like the "independent" laid-back need to please of Retrievers, and I don't think I could handle the attentiveness of a Pap or a BC. I think that was a great comparison.

Thanx,
- Hank Simon


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

hulkamaniac said:


> A well-bred purebred has parents who are genetically fit and healthy. In my mind a well-bred mutt would have the same. The difference is the parents weren't deliberately chosen.


I'm not trying to be argumentative but, if it's not deliberate, it's lucky.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

hanksimon said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Laurelin
> ... Papillons are nicknamed the border collie of the toy world for a reason. I don't have a border collie -yet- but I plan on having one sometime in the future, ...
> Okay that was long! Sorry!
> ...


thanks! I find them really easy to live with and I adore them.

I think this is a neat agility vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njm31DBQRqY&feature=related

One fast dog!


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

RonE said:


> I'm not trying to be argumentative but, if it's not deliberate, it's lucky.


I'm not trying to be argumentative either, but luck or not, the dog still ends up with good genes.


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## gracie_pie (Mar 20, 2009)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Ahh yes, Google, the bathroom wall of the internets. A great place for information.


Ha, yeah yeah I know, but you can really find a wide variety of information from opinions to true facts. If you don't like google, Nettrekker actually filters the information and sorts them by the ratings they recieve. There are people who go through and actually seperate real facts from myths and/or opinions. I highly recommend it, but I just figured that people would be more familiar with 'the bathroom wall'


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

THing with Google, is that either by paying money or using SEO code in your site, you can push a page higher in the search results ranking than it deserves. So you need to sift through it all to find the reputable sources from the rest of it.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Google is not a reliable source of information, period, because what goes on there is not controlled. There are pages out there saying that Elvis isn't dead or that Jesus was Hitler. If you want to reference a reliable source, find one that has controlled content -- ie the stuff that goes on is vetted for factual or scientific accuracy -- like a journal or a publication.


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## Sammgirl (Feb 6, 2009)

In regards to mixed breeds being healthier, I would just like to know how many mixed breed dogs are genetically tested for the markers of Von Willebrands, Addisons, PRA, etc. 

Many dogs can be carriers for many things, but that doesn't mean that the genes will express themselves. Often times, a more recessive gene won't express itself for several generations. 

One of the Berner breeders I was speaking to had a dog that was pidgeon toed in the front. She was able to trace that back to 7 generations prior.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

rosemaryninja said:


> Google is not a reliable source of information, period, because what goes on there is not controlled. There are pages out there saying that Elvis isn't dead or that Jesus was Hitler. If you want to reference a reliable source, find one that has controlled content -- ie the stuff that goes on is vetted for factual or scientific accuracy -- like a journal or a publication.


Journals and publications DO end up on Google results... Google is just an unfiltered search engine, not a 'source' of any info. It simply lists whatever sites it finds on the internet that use the same keywords you type in. It's very basic.

Most of the internet is crazy crap, that's not Google's fault. You have to evaluate each web page individually; you don't make a quality judgments based on what _search engine_ a site appears on. Search engines are just tools. Nobody should link to a Google Results page as proof of anything -- find a reputable source and link _that_ page.


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## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Pai said:


> Journals and publications DO end up on Google results... Google is just an unfiltered search engine, not a 'source' of any info. It simply lists whatever sites it finds on the internet that use the same keywords you type in. It's very basic.
> 
> Most of the internet is crazy crap, that's not Google's fault. You have to evaluate each web page individually; you don't make a quality judgments based on what _search engine_ a site appears on. Search engines are just tools. Nobody should link to a Google Results page as proof of anything -- find a reputable source and link _that_ page.


I'm aware of that. My point was that not all Google search results are equal. I'm not faulting Google; I'm faulting anyone who takes a random blog post, and a journal article, both listed in the same Google search result, and considers them the same in reliability.


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