# Totally Overstimulated Outside



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Sorry for the length! I wanted to give enough details.

I am struggling so much with Watson lately. He has been through a lot of changes since May, including having my husband become primary caretaker while he's home, traveling with me to a new apartment some weeks, and dropping all training classes. 

I am finding it so difficult to connect with him outdoors. Any place remotely resembling a field or forest (area around the apartment building, college campus, park, residential neighborhood, etc) can cause him to lose his little doggy mind. I've seen this behavior from him before, but not to this extent. 

He goes way over threshold - his eyes glaze over, he pants like crazy, and he quarters frantically on the end of the leash. Usually he is sniffing for wildlife, but sometimes he gets so frantic that he's not even taking in scents or actually tracking anything. If he sees anything interesting, like a squirrel, he starts screaming. 

He will actually listen to cues when he's like this, but I can tell he's still not there. He will sit when asked, and look vaguely at me, but not actually make eye contact, and his ability to hold any position is about 3 seconds before he's lunging and possibly shrieking again. He will take treats, but again he's obviously doing it because it's conditioned, not because he actually cares that I have treats. I can reward with a "go sniff" cue, but I wonder if this just amps him up more. I'm pretty sure it's overstimulation rather than anxiety, but I'm sure they are probably very similar in their physiological effects. 

He's not like this all the time. I can still walk him around our house and he's normal (a bit overstimulated, but not on another planet), and in certain areas he's fine, but his moments of totally checking out are becoming more frequent and aren't getting better with continued exposure to the places that cause it. I can't just back away from the trigger to work under threshold, because the entire environment is the trigger.

I'm at a loss for what to do. The only thing that seems to help is stopping and waiting him out until he's able to make actual eye contact with me and relax a tiny bit (this can take 10min, and needs to be repeated over and over). I'm not sure if that's really the most effective thing, and it doesn't seem to be working well. Sometimes we can walk until he's too tired to be frantic, but there must be a better way.

I can try to get a video tonight or tomorrow.

I need help!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm not much help.... but maybe a thundershirt would help? It sounds a little bit like he's hypervigilant which can be a sign of anxiety, but thundershirts can also work to help calm dogs who are highly aroused regardless of what the cause is. At the shelter we sometimes use them on dogs that excite very easily to help them stay calm, and it seems to work most of the time.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> I'm not much help.... but maybe a thundershirt would help? It sounds a little bit like he's hypervigilant which can be a sign of anxiety, but thundershirts can also work to help calm dogs who are highly aroused regardless of what the cause is. At the shelter we sometimes use them on dogs that excite very easily to help them stay calm, and it seems to work most of the time.


I've considered it. I might have to pick one up at the pet store and try just for those situations where I know he'll freak out.

I did try Rescue Remedy and I don't think it had any effect. MrsBoats recommended another supplement that works better for overstimulated vs anxious/fearful dogs, but since I'm always out of town I haven't been able to get to the vet and ask about it. This might be the time to make the extra effort and ask them about it.

It's funny because I don't consider him to be hyper vigilant at all usually, but I think that's because he's not a visual or auditory dog, so he's not reactive in the typical sense. For him it's scent, and a lot of really exciting new scents just seems to overload him. It's also strange to me that he can go to a dog show or busy tourist area and settle down in less than half an hour, and even his crazy behavior is no where near as bad as it's been lately at a boring college campus. He's always been easily overstimulated, but I was always able to get through to him with a little time and effort. I don't know why it's become so much worse lately.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I just thought of something else too; you could try a Dog Appeasing Pheromone (DAP) collar? Or try the DAP wipes/spray first to see if it has any effect on Watson (since they're a bit cheaper) and if they seem to help, _then_ try the collar?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

gingerkid said:


> I just thought of something else too; you could try a Dog Appeasing Pheromone (DAP) collar? Or try the DAP wipes/spray first to see if it has any effect on Watson (since they're a bit cheaper) and if they seem to help, _then_ try the collar?


Something else I've considered! I found reviews and they weren't super positive, but it's probably worth a shot. I did read that the collar should be left on all the time and it can take a while to work, which is one reason I didn't get it right away. He's totally fine most of the time, so I was looking for something I could apply or give him right before overstimulating situations. Still, it's something I should try at some point.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I wonder if the collar is at a lower DAP dose than the spray/wipes, since the dog has it on all the time? The spray is supposed to be for occasional use, like if the dog is being crated for travelling or something. Maybe you could use the spray on his leash before walks?

I wish I had better advice about dealing with the actual behavior instead of just suggesting products to "fix" the problem, but honestly, I'm stumped too.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

It is a little odd that he would be overstimulated in an outside area and fine during a show. I don't really have any advice for you, but would be interested in seeing a video of you were able to get one.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> I don't know why it's become so much worse lately.


If your husband is his primary caretaker and Watson hasn't been going to class lately, I wonder if there's an element that's just less practice and different criteria. I'm not saying he's doing anything on purpose, but I'm also saying this as the person in my household who has some pretty low criteria around the house - my dogs NEVER do the annoying attention-getting things to my husband that they do to me. 

Plus some dogs are just way more sensitive to changes in routine. I'm trying to think of what I would do... I think for awhile I would just plant myself in one spot and reward for choosing to check in. That hinges on anything I had being more rewarding than what he's smelling/hearing/seeing, though.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

What happens if you take him away? As in, if you can't handle the environment you can't be here, so back in the house/car we go and try again later? 

So say you drive to a park. Get out of car and if the behavior is good you stay out. If the behavior gets out of control and attempts to regroup are ignored, back in the car you go until you can calm back down and work with me. If calm, try again. (Obviously this would hinge on him being able to settle in the car).

The fact that he is good at places like dog shows and can handle himself there makes me lean towards the thought path of okay he can handle himself, he is just choosing not to, rather than not knowing how to handle himself. Then he just needs to be motivated to make better choices and maybe that entails removing the fun.

Just an initial thought based on what you described. Zoey can be easily overstimulated by the presence of other dogs (as in she LOVES other dogs) and sometimes I have to put my foot down a little firmer and stick to the "rules", as in you know what behavior is expected of you in this situation, we will not continue until you can settle back down. She cries about it a little bit then settles and we continue.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Sassafras' theory is a good one. What about trying one of the relaxation protocols (Karen Overall's protocol)?


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

DO you notice a difference at different times of the day?


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Sounds like a lack of an outlet. Is there a way to let him run and sniff and get all that excitement out? What about having him on a long 50ft line?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

sassafras said:


> If your husband is his primary caretaker and Watson hasn't been going to class lately, I wonder if there's an element that's just less practice and different criteria. I'm not saying he's doing anything on purpose, but I'm also saying this as the person in my household who has some pretty low criteria around the house - my dogs NEVER do the annoying attention-getting things to my husband that they do to me.
> 
> Plus some dogs are just way more sensitive to changes in routine. I'm trying to think of what I would do... I think for awhile I would just plant myself in one spot and reward for choosing to check in. That hinges on anything I had being more rewarding than what he's smelling/hearing/seeing, though.


My husband swears he's fine at home (and he's fine for me in our usual walking place when I'm home). My parents also walk him during the day when he's up here with me, and he's fine for them. So I dunno. I'm sure the change in routine is part of it, but I can't pinpoint anything specific, like somebody letting him get away with ridiculous behavior when I'm not around. It could just be that he's a little more anxious than usual, even if it doesn't show when we're at the apartment, and then it comes out with wild behavior. If anything he's the worst with me, because nobody else will take him places that might set him off, because they don't want to deal with it. Haha. He's also been with me in the apartment about 2 weeks on, one week off for the past month and a half, which means I'm more often his caretaker, but his schedule is even more crazy. He seems to like it here though and except for the first couple days has had no anxiety in the apartment (probably because my parents are home much of the day and he loves that). 



kadylady said:


> What happens if you take him away? As in, if you can't handle the environment you can't be here, so back in the house/car we go and try again later?
> 
> So say you drive to a park. Get out of car and if the behavior is good you stay out. If the behavior gets out of control and attempts to regroup are ignored, back in the car you go until you can calm back down and work with me. If calm, try again. (Obviously this would hinge on him being able to settle in the car).


Once he's like that, he won't settle in the car, so we would just have to leave. I've thought of that as an option, but I'm not sure he would get the idea if we just drove there, he freaked out, and we left, even if I did it over and over. It might work if I just drive there and then sit in the car until he's calm, and then leave. Maybe actually getting out of the car and walking around is too much and we need to practice being calm in very small stages. I'm not sure. I've been trying to figure out how to do exactly that in the most effective way. I have a hard time training him with negative punishment though - either I don't do it quickly and consistently enough, or he just has a hard time putting together his behavior with loss of privileges. 



> The fact that he is good at places like dog shows and can handle himself there makes me lean towards the thought path of okay he can handle himself, he is just choosing not to, rather than not knowing how to handle himself. Then he just needs to be motivated to make better choices and maybe that entails removing the fun.


I'm really not sure if he can control it or not. He is wild at shows for the first little bit, but he settles down fairly well after 10-15min of walking around. Don't get me wrong, he's always been a bit of a wild child, but he's still on planet earth. When he gets frantic and out of control, I'm not sure he even knows what he's doing. It's so odd how his eyes glaze over and he seems to have no control of himself. I can't decide if he's making bad choices because he can, or if he's in a state where he's not capable of making choices at all anymore. Like how you can put a reactive dog over threshold and then they are just not capable of thinking anymore, but he can maintain that state for quite a long time.



cookieface said:


> Sassafras' theory is a good one. What about trying one of the relaxation protocols (Karen Overall's protocol)?


Yes! We're working on this now. I've tried it in the past just for kicks, but never got all the way through the program. I'm starting up again at home, and then I hope to move outside slowly. I have a bad track record of following through on this though, and right now I know he wouldn't be able to handle even the first day exercises outdoors. Control Unleashed and another book I have both highly recommend it for dogs like him, so I want to give it a shot.



SDRRanger said:


> DO you notice a difference at different times of the day?


Yes, he's definitely more intense in the evening than in mid-day in general. Unfortunately that coincides with when I get home from work and can take him out. At home on the weekends I usually walk him mid-day and he's fine, and my parents walk him multiple times a day and he's fine for them (they also don't take him to places that might make him crazy - they wait for me to come home for that ... haha)



Hector4 said:


> Sounds like a lack of an outlet. Is there a way to let him run and sniff and get all that excitement out? What about having him on a long 50ft line?


More often than not he's on a long line - not 50ft (he would get completely tangled around trees), but I have 10ft and 20ft long lines, and 30ft retractable. I think it actually makes things worse. If I keep him on a short leash and force him to walk right next to me he seems to relax a bit. If I give him more freedom, he just gets higher and higher. I can walk him until he's calm, but it takes a while and I really don't like letting him practice out of control behavior for over an hour at a time.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> Control Unleashed and another book I have both highly recommend it for dogs like him, so I want to give it a shot.


What's the other book? Because, you know, Katie.  I started working on _Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out_, but we got stuck with shaping relaxation - she just won't relax during a training session. I'm planning to switch to Overall's program and then go back to _FFF_.

I will say that Katie was (almost) perfectly well behaved at camp. She had one day when she wasn't feeling well and just sniffed around the agility ring and was generally less responsive than usual. Typically, she's better behaved in groups than one-on-one.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> What's the other book? Because, you know, Katie.  I started working on _Fired Up, Frantic, and Freaked Out_, but we got stuck with shaping relaxation - she just won't relax during a training session. I'm planning to switch to Overall's program and then go back to _FFF_.
> 
> I will say that Katie was (almost) perfectly well behaved at camp. She had one day when she wasn't feeling well and just sniffed around the agility ring and was generally less responsive than usual. Typically, she's better behaved in groups than one-on-one.


That's the book! Haha. She doesn't seem to call it the Relaxation Protocol, but it sounds similar enough that I assume that's the basis of her methods. She is very into the mat work, as is Leslie McDevitt, so there must be something to it.

Watson was actually fantastic at an obedience seminar in June. I was so worried because we hadn't done an obedience class in months, and he was so awful in agility, but he was a star. I think it helped immensely that he was crated most of the time, and only brought out to work in short bursts. Trying to relax in a class on leash is so hard for him and I think it uses up a lot of his brain power, so when it's time to work he's a spaz. The crate seemed to allow him to actually relax and be ready to work when he came back out. When we get a chance to start agility again I will definitely be crating him when it's not his turn.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> That's the book! Haha. She doesn't seem to call it the Relaxation Protocol, but it sounds similar enough that I assume that's the basis of her methods. She is very into the mat work, as is Leslie McDevitt, so there must be something to it.


Yeah, when I read the book, I kept expecting a section set apart from the rest of the text for the actual steps (perhaps in bold text or boxed off). I was a bit confused about what I was supposed to be doing until I re-read it. I think Overall's protocol is a little more structured (?) in that the dog doing something (sitting, lying down) not just trying to figure out what I want. To me, it seems more like an impulse control exercise, but both things are related.



> Watson was actually fantastic at an obedience seminar in June. I was so worried because we hadn't done an obedience class in months, and he was so awful in agility, but he was a star. I think it helped immensely that he was crated most of the time, and only brought out to work in short bursts. Trying to relax in a class on leash is so hard for him and I think it uses up a lot of his brain power, so when it's time to work he's a spaz. The crate seemed to allow him to actually relax and be ready to work when he came back out. When we get a chance to start agility again I will definitely be crating him when it's not his turn.


I really like the idea of relax on a mat for use in classes. Katie is so UP and ON all the time in class - she just doesn't settle and I need to work with her continuously. The other dogs lie nicely on their mats and await cues from the handlers -I want that kind of dog.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Watson was actually fantastic at an obedience seminar in June. I was so worried because we hadn't done an obedience class in months, and he was so awful in agility, but he was a star.* I think it helped immensely that he was crated most of the time, and only brought out to work in short bursts.* Trying to relax in a class on leash is so hard for him and I think it uses up a lot of his brain power, so when it's time to work he's a spaz. *The crate seemed to allow him to actually relax and be ready to work when he came back out.* When we get a chance to start agility again I will definitely be crating him when it's not his turn.


Do you have a crate in your car?

Go to a park with parking lot and nearby picnic tables, set up the empty crate, get comfortable. Bring the dog out to work. If he doesn't want to work, immediately use the crate. Within two or three attempts you should see some progress. If after 4 or 5 attempts you see no progress, put him and all the gear back in the car and return home. Minivans with 'semi-permanent' crate setups are invaluable for exactly this type of situation, and also for the preferred variation: what I call the Traveling Road Show (stop along pre-determined route, get dog out of crate, obtain 1 behavior only, give HIGH value reinforcer, back into crate, drive on to next stop, repeat procedure, and so on). Eventually work towards 2 behaviours at each stop, then three, etc. 

Maybe you can adapt something similar, somehow, using a crate + your car.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Do you have a crate in your car?
> 
> Go to a park with parking lot and nearby picnic tables, set up the empty crate, get comfortable. Bring the dog out to work. If he doesn't want to work, immediately use the crate. Within two or three attempts you should see some progress. If after 4 or 5 attempts you see no progress, put him and all the gear back in the car and return home. Minivans with 'semi-permanent' crate setups are invaluable for exactly this type of situation, and also for the preferred variation: what I call the Traveling Road Show (stop along pre-determined route, get dog out of crate, obtain 1 behavior only, give HIGH value reinforcer, back into crate, drive on to next stop, repeat procedure, and so on). Eventually work towards 2 behaviours at each stop, then three, etc.
> 
> Maybe you can adapt something similar, somehow, using a crate + your car.


This is a great idea! I can't fit a crate in my tiny car, but I can bring the travel crate and set it up easily enough. I don't have it with me but I can grab it next time I'm home. Watson is staying home next week so my husband can take him for OFA X-rays, but he'll be back here the week after. I could also trying doing this with just my car though I don't think it will work as well.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Not sure if this will be helpful, but it can't hurt.

I live with 3 high-drive dogs. It's a challenge to give them what they need to be content. Almost every day, my dogs get an hour long walk where they get to be total headcases. I put them in rear clip harnesses and put them on flexi leads and off we go. The only rule is that they can't pull real hard. They can pull some, but not enough to tire me. They can do whatever else they want. I don't care. However, occasionally, I will call them in. When I do, they have to walk nicely beside me for 10 seconds or a minute, whatever, and then I release them back into being wild. I don't carry treats. They just have to come in, walk nicely, and then they get to go back out and be stupid. 

Also, sometimes I mix it up. Some days, I put them all on flat collars and walk them all on 6 foot leashes and they have to not pull at all. If they are in a collar, no pulling. Not ever. They only get to be stupid in harnesses.

Toggling between being wild with short (real short) sessions of being under control helps a ton. Plus, a collar means "grow a brain." If I am moody or tired, I only use the harness. If I have a collar on a dog, it means that I am committed to holding them to the criteria of not pulling at all.

Being able to spend some real time everyday being lost in the outdoors seems to really, really help my dogs be okay with giving up control whenever I ask for it.

Not sure if this would be helpful or not. The harness means "have at it" with only short bursts of having to offer up controlled behavior.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Trainingjunkie, that's more or less what we already do. I'm totally ok with walks being wild time, but lately he is pulling enough to rip my arm off, screaming, spinning, racing from side to side, etc. When I do ask him to walk next to me he often shrieks with frustration and just can't get his head together. At home, on our normal walks, he's happy to walk next to me, do a few steps of heeling, etc and then go back to running around and sniffing, but in these situations he can't/won't. So I don't know. Being wild is one thing, but he's getting high as a kite and seems unable to even focus his eyes on me, or do anything other than sit for 3 seconds. It's like watching a dog who is anxious and panicked, but he's not, he's just so overstimulated that he can't think. 

I'm going to get videos tonight. One if a normal walk and one where he's on the moon and crazy.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I will be very interested to see the video. Sounds like a very frustrating problem.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I will be very interested to see the video. Sounds like a very frustrating problem.


Yes, I want to strangle him some days. lol I've gone to a prong sometimes because even on a front clip harness he was becoming uncontrollable and making my shoulder really sore from the pulling. It doesn't change his behavior at all, other than to stop him from pulling my arm out. I've even wondered if the prong is amping him up more, but I can put him on the prong in all situations and he's still only ridiculous in the same places (or types of places) that he was ridiculous in the harness. 

It also makes me sad for him because, like a dog who's panicking, I imagine he doesn't want to be like that, and would much rather be rational instead of frantic.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Ok, here are the videos! I just kind of let him do his thing here so you could see his reactions. Let me know what you think I should be doing to get his brain back in the second situation.

First up is a pretty normal walk around the apartment complex. For a regular walk I don't care if he's sniffing and running around a bit, so I'm fine with how he was walking in this video. This was less than 5 minutes in, so he was a little bit crazier at first, but he was calming down quickly. In 10 more minutes he would've been trotting along nicely. Right before this video he saw a dog in front of us and barked once, but you can see that he listens well when I tell him "leave it" and he's responsive.






And here is a video at the college about 15min later. I also gave him a 5 minute period to calm down before starting to film, but if anything he's crazier here than when we arrived. There were zero distractions other than the general environment - no squirrels, no people, no other dogs (there wasn't even a squirrel up that tree he was trying to climb). He's completely unresponsive when I call him, though he does sit when I ask (barely). Towards the end I show what happens if I stop and wait him out - he looks at me, sits, then lays down, shrieking in frustration the whole time.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I don't think it looks too bad. Frustrating, but not *horrible* and not shocking. If he came to me to be boarded or as a foster, I know where I would start with him.

I would put him in a rear clip, neutral harness. I would have him on a long-line. I would walk him silently and just let him be in the environment. I wouldn't give a single command. I would go to the same general place over and over until he started to settle. Then I would start doing recalls. I would call when I thought he was likely to succeed. I would hand over a treat and release him. Treat/release. Treat/release. 

I would walk him on a collar by the apartment and work on loose leash walking skills there, but when I was going someplace interesting, I would use the harness to cue that he was free to be in his own little world. When he was ready, I would add the recall. When he was good with that, I would add occasional times when I snapped onto his leash for a couple of minutes then release him again on the harness.

Right or wrong, I would be giving him chances to go into the environment without any noise from me and then I would start adding control back incrementally as he was able to succeed. I don't think it would take too long. Essentially, I would remove myself from the conflict and let him work it out on his own. Once he can adjust to the stimulation of a new place, he will likely get a little bored and will be ready to start training. The first few places you work on this will take time, but with repetition, it should get much, much easier and quicker. 

At home, I would be training a ton and teaching him how cool it is to work with me. I would do that in very comfortable places. If I built the value in high enough, eventually, he would beg for the opportunity to play and interact, even in new places. But it wouldn't happen quickly.

I would not be asking for behaviors that would put him in conflict. I would get off the collar so it was crystal clear that he was free to take on the world.

When I see dogs who act pent up and nervous, I just take them out and let them work it out as they need to. I don't chose scary places. I don't correct them. I don't soothe them. I don't try to train them. I just let them deal with the bugs in their own head and silently walk with them until they are ready. I stay calm. I keep moving forward. I let them work it out for themselves. I can "feel" when they are ready to recall and I can "feel" when I can put the leash on their collar and ask for them back. But until they are ready, they get to just go out and de-stress and work it out.

I would take all pressure off and go for long walks everywhere. He seems to need to just work it out. I would be his calm anchor. I would tell quietly tell him he's great any time he checked in. Otherwise, it's his walk. There is time for training later, when he's ready. Right now, the work is in getting comfortable out and about. Once that's done, the training is easy.

Does any of that make sense? I have trained and fostered a bunch of dogs. That doesn't make me right, but in my experience, backing off has been very, very effective.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Thud actually had a period of a few months where he looked a lot like (worse, honestly). It drove me insane. I wrestled and fought and struggled with it and him and really, really, started to majorly dislike him. You can even see in some of the posts that I made during that period that I just did. not. like. that. dog. It was not a happy relationship because it was so constantly adversarial. 

End of the day? I gave up. Sort of. Giving up for me looked a lot like what trainingjunkie is saying. I walked him to the places we go on a training tab (4" leash, basically) so I didn't get killed and could maintain control, then put him on a long line for safety and let him do his thing and work it out. We went nowhere new, and we didn't even TRY to work anywhere new. The only training I did was at home, and for a while the only place I could even get reliable behaviors at home was in the kitchen/dining room. It took ages to even work him back onto our porch and the yard. Once we got things settled back to the point where we could do anything at all at home we started adding it back while we were out.

And, frankly, we're still not 100%, or even 100% back to where we were. But he's stopped melting the heck down every time we step foot out the door. 

And I honestly think struggling with him about it was making it worse. Thud feeds off me like wild. The more stressed I was about him being stressed the more stressed he got. The more stressed he got, the more stressed I got. The more stressed we both were, the more the situation escalated and me trying to manage the situation/him, the less he was able to work it out. It just ramped his frustration level up and up and UP.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie and CaptJack, thank you for your suggestions.

I don't want to sound dismissive at all, because I greatly respect the experience both of you have, especially with taking in a lot of fosters. The plan you've described is exactly how I have always approached his training, and a year and a half later he is now more wild than he has been in a long time, so I don't think it's working. Sure, it used to take him an hour to settle down at dog shows and now it takes 20min, but he's still more wild than 90% of the dogs there. The second video was of a local college where he has been about 4 times now, and his behavior is not any better despite letting him work things out with little input from me. I've always taken the less is more approach and let him work things out and tried to work with him when he's ready, but I don't think it's getting me anywhere long term. You can see where he sits when I ask, and that it doesn't take long for some reorientation when I stop moving, but that's all I've accomplished in 2 years of this and that's not enough for me. 

Also, I can't put him on a regular harness - I can't pysically hold him or go on a walk in a rear clip harness without seriously worrying about damage to my shoulder. He is that strong and out of control. In situations where he's calmer a harness is fine, but when he's amped like this he will just pull into it as hard as he can in an attempt to get far away.

We train at home all the time, and he loves to work with me, but not when he's outside and especially not when his brain has fallen out. I don't think that the answer is more training and connection at home in low distraction environments.

I've been doing a lot of reading and thinking about this problem lately, and one option that has come up a few times is more structure, rather than less. I've had people tell me this for a while, though often people who were not opposed to some punishment, and I wondered if the only way to implement more structure was to add punishment. But then lately I've been re-reading Suzanne Clothier's book and she advocates strongly for adding structure and insisting that the dog connect with her. She is one of the most humane trainers I can think of, and she doesn't recommend punishment, but she does expect and require the dog to stay connected to her before they move, even if it takes all day to move a short distance. I'll admit that I am not 100% sure how to implement this, but I think I need to try. I'm just not getting anywhere waiting for him to work things out on his own time.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I would look hard at this video if you are a Clothier fan. It's a good watch. http://www.suzanneclothier.com/store/product/arousal-anxiety-and-fear-dvd

Have you seen it?

CptJack hit on a big point too. Is there any chance that you are feeding off Watson's "crazy." I think one of the reasons that my approach has been effective for me is because I have very little investment when I do it. I don't have goals or time-lines, so I am not afraid. I don't get internally amped up when things don't go according to plan.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that your training should all be in your house. However, building intensity and love for training will happen best there. Then it will happen in your back yard and then your front, but you know all this. You have taken a bunch of good training and have read and watched more. Do you have a good coach? One that you meet with one on one?

For me, I will not add correction to anxiety. At its worst, it will increase anxiety. At best, it will suppress the anxiety by being more concerning to the dog than the environment. It won't build a confident, self-controlled dog. It will likely give you a more manageable dog, but you risk less-predictable neurotic behaviors leaking out in other areas. (Ironically, over-using food and toys to distract a dog through environment can take you to bad places too. It's like they wake up when the goodies are gone and flip out, wondering how they got there.)

I liked the video I referenced a lot. I haven't watched it for 6 months now, but there were pieces in it that stood the test of time that I still use. Maybe peek at that. And if you don't have a coach nearby, maybe look for one. I love having people that I can turn to when I get stumped who can actually see and touch my dog. They can make all the difference in the world, usually by calming me down and giving me perspective.

Hang in there. He is at a tough age. Stay calm. Keep training. Keep playing. It will be okay. I promise.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I have seen that video. I got some great things out of it, but I don't remember a ton that seemed to apply to most of his behaviors. Maybe I need to watch it again. I really don't think his issue is anxiety exactly, but I do think it might be a sort of OCD around hunting and finding small animals, the way an anxious dog might be super alert to any other dog approaching, or might be overwhelmed by a crowded area, or a border collie might be OCD about things that move. He is just so overwhelmed by this need to scan and sniff and search and he can't turn it off. So I guess that's very similar to anxiety, but it seems like letting him approach the things that set him off just amps him up more, because ultimately it's rewarding to hunt and find little animals. From what I remember, a lot of that video was about letting dogs approach and retreat on their own time, but his response is just to throw himself at the environment.

No, I don't have a good coach. I've taken classes for a couple years with various people, and I haven't found one yet who was really able to help me get through to him at the core of what his issues are. He's certainly better than this in classes, and he can perform and be a good boy, though you can imagine he's overstimulated and often the wild child. Most trainers have just said things like "he really knows he can get away with stuff" or "he's got your number". Though when I've handed over the leash most have looked surprised and said something like "Wow, he's tough". Well, yeah! Haha. Other than leash pops or out-stubborning him, they haven't been able to offer a lot of advice. I have noticed that pretty much every trainer, no matter how positive they claim to be, and how positive they are with every other dog in class, has gone to corrections with him. Every single one, even the super positive agility trainer. Usually mild, but still, it seems to be the consensus that he needs to be told what not to do. I've never been comfortable with using corrections, partially because most of the time I haven't seen them really work with him, or else I am just not good enough at using them for it to be effective. He can take a correction, change his behavior for a few seconds, and then go right back to being ridiculous. I've had a lot more success with convincing him to work with me, but when the competition from the environment is so strong it's really hard to convince him that doing things my way is the better way.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I feel your pain. In our training classes the trainers were never able to really help me deal with Ryker's over stimulation in that environment either (the class environment). Have you tried a one-on-one trainer? I've thought about hiring one.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

jade5280 said:


> I feel your pain. In our training classes the trainers were never able to really help me deal with Ryker's over stimulation in that environment either (the class environment). Have you tried a one-on-one trainer? I've thought about hiring one.


I didn't really consider private lessons until lately. Before I just kind of trudged through classes and there was still improvement, so I kept on going. But I feel like we have hit a bit of a wally lately. I haven't found anybody up here that I know or trust, but I could take private lessons with the woman who runs the place we trained back home as long as she could do weekends (and with dog show season being over that might work).


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Private lessons from someone you trust is probably the key. That and maybe letting Watson grow up a little. If varmit hunting is his "thing", I would start looking for a reward cycle that mimics that activity as closely as I could. Then, I would try to transfer his OCD onto that. Perhaps a rabbit tug with a squeaker on a rope that flings out when he offers focus? And then rich play.

The thing with a reinforcer is that the more you use it well, the more they want it. What might start off as "okay" can become "OH MY GOD GIVE IT TO ME!" over time. My non-retrieving little fear dog developed such a passion for her red ball that she would do anything, even compete, for the chance to touch it. But it took time. I had to use it wisely and build it.

For dogs that hunt, food is probably not going to be the best reinforcer over time. 

Bottom line: I would love to be able to help you and I would love a week with your dog, but in the end, everything I offer might be total crap because I have never met the two of you. A good coach that you stick with over time is probably your best bet. And really deciding on an approach and seeing it through might be important too. I know that with my largest competitive challenge, I have cycled through too many coaches and approaches too quickly and in doing so, I made my problem much worse because I didn't commit to a single path. That's on me, not my dog and not the talented trainers that I turned to for advice.

I have been where you are. In some cases, I was very successful overcoming my challenges. In others, I am still a work in progress. Sending you all my best and hoping to watch the story of your success unfold.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I will be following this with great interest. I've already learned a lot just by reading your posts and the responses by others...

Some general points I agree with:

Touching back on what CptJack and trainingjunkie said about stress feeding stress... One thing I notice is you seem to sound frustrated, or at a loss, with Watson in the second video. You say that you've tried the less is more approach but you are still giving him cues... And you are 'testing' him more than anything else because the cues are given when he is likely to fail (ie, not respond). I believe the point would be to not say anything at all and just let him be. But I could be misinterpreting trainingjunkie's advice and also let me know if you purposely throw out cues in the video just to show us that he is tuned out. I wonder if trainingjunkie's advice would work if you used a front clip harness and a long line? Something that gives him the freedom but is gentler on your arm.

The crate-car idea sounds great to me too. 

Food does not seem to be the highest reward here and I agree with whoever mentioned it being a minor distraction than a true reward for him in this state.

I also agree with the harm in trying too many different methods at once and not sticking through with one.

Basically, I don't have anything to offer and I also don't know how I would handle this in person, besides trying what's already been said. But elrowhen I know you are a great dog owner and I have followed you quite a while on this forum... You've put a lot of work into Watson and you've done good. I just want to reiterate what everyone else has said: It will turn out in the end!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I've watched the videos, then gone back and reviewed your comments, and here are some of my random thoughts. Most of this I suspect you already realize, but I'm going to throw them out there for further consideration, just in case.



> (...) I think that's because he's not a visual or auditory dog, so he's not reactive in the typical sense. For him it's scent, and a lot of really exciting new scents just seems to overload him. It's also strange to me that he can go to a dog show or busy tourist area and settle down in less than half an hour, and even his crazy behavior is no where near as bad as it's been lately at a boring college campus.


 Boring to who? You? You're assigning your own human impression to these situations. I'm certain your dog thinks that college campus is the greatest thing, scent-wise, since sliced bread. Busy tourist areas and dog shows aren't anywhere near the same level of fun as being able to exercise your nose and express yourself in a natural way. Natural to a Welsh Springer anyway. Which brings me to my second thought. He is a Welsh Springer after all, and you shouldn't expect him to perform like a Lab, Golden, or BC for example. Consider his inherent breed characteristics. IMO he looks like a Welshie doin' what Welshies are supposed to do, more or less. Frankly, your "problem" is "fixable" so-to-speak, but you'll have a very tough row to hoe fighting all of those natural instincts, so perhaps a bit of a compromise is in order. And I don't think repeatedly doping him up with DAP, RR, nor the use of a thundershirt etc is the right way to go here either. For one thing they're just not practical.



> More often than not he's on a long line - not 50ft (he would get completely tangled around trees), but I have 10ft and 20ft long lines, and 30ft retractable. I think it actually makes things worse.


 Oh, you can bet your sweet bippy it's making things worse. So, if possible which I think it is, simply don't do it. 



> If I keep him on a short leash and force him to walk right next to me he seems to relax a bit.


 This is part of the solution as I see it. But don't "force him" - encourage him. Use the short (4' or 6') leash, plus extremely high value food treats and a very high rate of reinforcement, always delivered at your side. That's probably your best and easiest bet.



> The plan you've described is exactly how I have always approached his training, and a year and a half later he is now more wild than he has been in a long time, so I don't think it's working. Sure, it used to take him an hour to settle down at dog shows and now it takes 20min, but he's still more wild than 90% of the dogs there. The second video was of a local college where he has been about 4 times now, and his behavior is not any better despite letting him work things out with little input from me. I've always taken the less is more approach and let him work things out and tried to work with him when he's ready, but I don't think it's getting me anywhere long term.


 You're right, it's not working and it's not getting you where you want to be, long term. Unfortunate but true. Time to abandon ship, re-evaluate, devise a more workable Plan B, and then put it into action.


OK, moving on to the videos now. Like trainingjunkie said, I don't really think his behavior is all *that* bad in a strict sense of the word. What I did notice though, is that between the two videos there is a distinct lack of reinforcement for 'desirable' behavior in the second vid. Examples at 20 seconds and again at 1 min 30 seconds. Those are lost opportunities, opportunities which I would've taken full advantage of. In fact I'd be reinforcing the snot out of them, open bar - closed bar style. And if you don't take advantage of them, then you're likely sending the 'wrong' message that he is free to do as he pleases. Remember the basics, behaviours that are reinforced are more likely to re-occur. Behaviours that are not reinforced are more likely to extinguish. And flailing around at the end of the leash is self-reinforcing. Right?

EDIT: I wrote this response a few hours ago, before company unexpectedly dropped by. So I haven't had a chance to submit it until now, and I see there have been numerous additional responses in the meantime that I haven't read yet. Will review those now, and comment further if I feel the need to.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Canyx said:


> Touching back on what CptJack and trainingjunkie said about stress feeding stress... One thing I notice is you seem to sound frustrated, or at a loss, with Watson in the second video. You say that you've tried the less is more approach but you are still giving him cues... And you are 'testing' him more than anything else because the cues are given when he is likely to fail (ie, not respond). I believe the point would be to not say anything at all and just let him be. But I could be misinterpreting trainingjunkie's advice and also let me know if you purposely throw out cues in the video just to show us that he is tuned out. I wonder if trainingjunkie's advice would work if you used a front clip harness and a long line? Something that gives him the freedom but is gentler on your arm.


Yes, I was throwing out cues that I knew he wouldn't respond to, as a comparison with the first video. I wanted to show that his recall and "leave it" (which was strong in the first video) was non-existent, but that he will sit (though barely and without eye contact). 

The previous times we've gone to the college I haven't asked him to do much more than walk in the direction I'm trying to walk, and not shriek at squirrels (usually by walking away until he stops, then trying to approach the area again if we can't go around). So I have definitely just let him be, and he just cranks up more and more once he's like this. I have front clip harnesses and he can still pull my arm until it's sore, which is why I have been trying the prong. They also seemed to mess up his shoulders and gait, especially the Easy Walk, so I don't like him pulling all out against them if I can help it. 

He does get time every day on a harness to just let loose a bit, but only if he can let loose in a moderately controlled fashion (no shrieking, no pulling my arm off).




> Basically, I don't have anything to offer and I also don't know how I would handle this in person, besides trying what's already been said. But elrowhen I know you are a great dog owner and I have followed you quite a while on this forum... You've put a lot of work into Watson and you've done good. I just want to reiterate what everyone else has said: It will turn out in the end!


Thank you for the vote of confidence! I try to do the right thing, but in situations like this I often feel like I'm lacking some key mechanical skill or something. It's easy enough to build skills at training behaviors when you have a willing dog in a low distraction environment, but proofing and training in the real world is much harder.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Boring to who? You? You're assigning your own human impression to these situations. I'm certain your dog thinks that college campus is the greatest thing, scent-wise, since sliced bread. Busy tourist areas and dog shows aren't anywhere near the same level of fun as being able to exercise your nose and express yourself in a natural way. Natural to a Welsh Springer anyway. Which brings me to my second thought. He is a Welsh Springer after all, and you shouldn't expect him to perform like a Lab, Golden, or BC for example. Consider his inherent breed characteristics. IMO he looks like a Welshie doin' what Welshies are supposed to do, more or less. Frankly, your "problem" is "fixable" so-to-speak, but you'll have a very tough row to hoe fighting all of those natural instincts, so perhaps a bit of a compromise is in order. And I don't think repeatedly doping him up with DAP, RR, nor the use of a thundershirt etc is the right way to go here either. For one thing they're just not practical.


Well, of course you're right there. It is extremely exciting to him. I do understand that he wants to sniff and explore, and in my first video I thought we struck a decent balance of sniffing and listening to me when required. I've been around a lot of Welsh springers now and he stands out as being pretty much the most wild of the bunch. Granted, most of them are females, but I know that he can apply more self-control than he does if I could just teach him how. He doesn't have to be a BC, but I can't imagine he likes that eye glazed over feeling either. I've watched other spaniels hunt for real and they seem to be able to joyfully find birds, and still interact with and listen to their handlers, instead of blindly rushing off many fields away with no purpose or focus. I've seen him hunt well, like when he does Nosework, and he can be very focused, but in the video he wasn't. He doesn't even have his nose down most of the time, and I don't think he's really taking in the scents so much as getting overwhelmed with everything. 




> You're right, it's not working and it's not getting you where you want to be, long term. Unfortunate but true. Time to abandon ship, re-evaluate, devise a more workable Plan B, and then put it into action.


That's my goal. I'm just struggling to figure out what the correct plan is. Or if I know what it is, how to execute it.




> OK, moving on to the videos now. Like trainingjunkie said, I don't really think his behavior is all *that* bad in a strict sense of the word. What I did notice though, is that between the two videos there is a distinct lack of reinforcement for 'desirable' behavior in the second vid. Examples at 20 seconds and again at 1 min 30 seconds. Those are lost opportunities, opportunities which I would've taken full advantage of. In fact I'd be reinforcing the snot out of them, open bar - closed bar style. And if you don't take advantage of them, then you're likely sending the 'wrong' message that he is free to do as he pleases. Remember the basics, behaviours that are reinforced are more likely to re-occur. Behaviours that are not reinforced are more likely to extinguish. And flailing around at the end of the leash is self-reinforcing. Right?


No, he's wasn't terrible in this video. He's been worse, but my mom commented that he was calmer this time than the previous trips to the college. So I guess exposure does work a little, just not enough for me. You're right that I didn't reward in those cases. I get caught up by not wanting to rewarding him yelling at me, so then I don't reward at all. Generally once he's like this he doesn't want food, but he'll take it so I should have rewarded before he had the chance to get frustrated. But rewarding has gotten us to this point, which isn't very good, IMO. He'll sit, but he's still not at all focused on me. He'll take food and he won't touch toys when he's like this. I've tried using sniffing and the environment as the reward (which is mostly how I got him to be able to sit at all) but I think it amps him up more.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

I have a 17 month old GSD puppy. He's still a puppy and probably will be for some time. He has his moments where he is 'on' and motivated to work with me, but he really does lose focus similar to what you say outside, even if it's just in our yard. He's pretty good at class and indoors, but he doesn't engage with me much at all once leashed. That's what I struggle with. I think that, like my dog, yours still has some growing up to do. Frankly, males take longer to get there than females. I'm resigned to maybe another year (or two).


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Galathiel said:


> I have a 17 month old GSD puppy. He's still a puppy and probably will be for some time. He has his moments where he is 'on' and motivated to work with me, but he really does lose focus similar to what you say outside, even if it's just in our yard. He's pretty good at class and indoors, but he doesn't engage with me much at all once leashed. That's what I struggle with. I think that, like my dog, yours still has some growing up to do. Frankly, males take longer to get there than females. I'm resigned to maybe another year (or two).


Yeah, I'm sure that's a big part of my problem. He has matured in some ways in the last 6 months, but I think he has a ways to go. It's good to know I'm not alone


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> I've tried using sniffing and the environment as the reward (which is mostly how I got him to be able to sit at all) but I think it amps him up more.


Exactly! Using the video moments I pointed out for examples, what I might do is .. well, first of all I think you have to determine understand and realize WHAT the dog REALLY wants most of all. In this case I think it's obvious that it's actually wanting to move 'forward' and continue sniffing and quartering etc. Simply don't give him what he wants; mark the good behavior (ie: down), deliver a treat for that, then turn around - release - walk the other way and reward for following in THAT direction. Oversimplified I know, lol. But the idea here is to utilize, lets call it, a reverse Premack principle. DON'T give him the opportunity to continue sniffing. Theoretically at least, he'll learn over time that the best item of choice on the 'menu of availability' is paying attention to you. And of course there should be times when he IS released to do as he pleases, just that those particular opportunities should probably be fewer and further between that what they are now. Restricted, and very occasional.
Hope I said that right so it's not offensive and still makes sense.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Exactly! Using the video moments I pointed out for examples, what I might do is .. well, first of all I think you have to determine understand and realize WHAT the dog REALLY wants most of all. In this case I think it's obvious that it's actually wanting to move 'forward' and continue sniffing and quartering etc. Simply don't give him what he wants; mark the good behavior (ie: down), deliver a treat for that, then turn around - release - walk the other way and reward for following in THAT direction. Oversimplified I know, lol. But the idea here is to utilize, lets call it, a reverse Premack principle. DON'T give him the opportunity to continue sniffing. Theoretically at least, he'll learn over time that the best item of choice on the 'menu of availability' is paying attention to you. And of course there should be times when he IS released to do as he pleases, just that those particular opportunities should probably be fewer and further between that what they are now. Restricted, and very occasional.
> Hope I said that right so it's not offensive and still makes sense.


That makes a lot of sense! Thank you.

I really think I need to try a no nonsense structured approach for a while. Rewards come from me, no more flailing around the environment, and then give back freedom when he is calm. I'll admit that this is not my natural training inclination so it will be harder for me than for him!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Even though it doesn't look like at on first reading, I believe that petpeeve an I are actually heading for exactly the same thing. Both of our approaches end with pairing freedom with paying attention and responding to cues. Both approaches reward the dog with returning to the environment. Both approaches teach the dog to understand that responding to cues equals some reward and a return to the joys of the walk.

We really are only differing in how to start the process. With most of the foster dogs or boarding dogs that I take in, I am starting with a pent-up, frustrated animal who is overwhelmed by most everything. When I start from there, I let the dog decompress and I leave them alone until they get back to center. That is why I start with GIVING them all the freedom. And then, when they are better adjusted and not over threshold, I start asking for the control back, gently at first, and then building to bigger and better things. It's at this point that petpeeve and I, to my understanding, are at the same place saying essentially the same thing.

Only you can know which route best applies to Watson. For dogs coming out of 2 months in a shelter, I like my approach, although certainly, petpeeve's approach would absolutely also work right off the bat. However, I think that for some dogs, asking for that control up front might be very frustrating and stressful and would be hard to do. My approach of asking later when the dog is more settled is just easier on me and *I think* the dog. However, petpeeve's approach would be consistent from the start. 

Both paths lead to the same end. They aren't that different from one another. One of the most frustrating things when asking for help is seeing totally opposing answers and thinking that people are mostly full of crap. I just wanted to point out that in a lot of the answers, there are common threads. Look seriously at the commonalities.

And petpeeve, if I am misrepresenting you, I apologize. I trust that you will set me straight!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie, really great explanation that makes a lot of sense. You are right, they are fundamentally the same in the end, but approached from different directions. I think I have been trying to approach it your way, which meshes better with my training style, but I haven't been able to get to where I want to be for whatever reason (my failure to implement, not working for my dog, I don't know). Watson isn't in the same position as a shelter dog with no training, so I think it wouldn't be out of order to expect more from him at this point, and make things structured. I think he is capable of doing what I want, and "knows" what I want, but does not choose to do it in all situations because it hasn't been enforced, and because he struggles with impulse control in general (so he certainly isn't going to choose to control his impulses if I don't rquire it). But he has enough foundation training that he should be able to put things together.

Things are starting to come together I think, at least in my head. Now I need to figure out how to implement in real time. I'm going to get started tonight, so we'll see how it goes. I don't expect we'll get out of the car. Haha


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Sounds great! You know what you have been doing and where Watson is at. Sounds like starting out with control off the bat is the best plan. Good luck! And there's no need to make it one. single. step.

Pick your criteria and stick to it! Good luck! Pulling for you!


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Hey have you looked into the Premack principle? I think a lot of the suggestions here fall under the Premack.

Good luck.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Elrohwen, sorry you're struggling, but as Canyx said, "I know you are a great dog owner and I have followed you quite a while on this forum... You've put a lot of work into Watson and you've done good. I just want to reiterate what everyone else has said: It will turn out in the end!" I appreciate your starting the thread and the great advice you've received, especially from trainingjunkie, petpeeve, and cptjack. Let us know how you and Watson progress.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Hector4 said:


> Hey have you looked into the Premack principle? I think a lot of the suggestions here fall under the Premack.
> 
> Good luck.


I have used premack quite a bit and ultimately I've found it to work against me. He will do what I ask, but he possibility of getting to sniff means he's still amped and focused on the environment when I want him focused on me. It could be that I'm not using it quite right, but if that's true then it's a more complicated reward system than I realized. What I really want is for him to just look to me for rewards right now and not think about how excited he is to sniff


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

cookieface said:


> Elrohwen, sorry you're struggling, but as Canyx said, "I know you are a great dog owner and I have followed you quite a while on this forum... You've put a lot of work into Watson and you've done good. I just want to reiterate what everyone else has said: It will turn out in the end!" I appreciate your starting the thread and the great advice you've received, especially from trainingjunkie, petpeeve, and cptjack. Let us know how you and Watson progress.


Thank you! We had a nice first session tonight and I'm going to update in the morning when I'm on a computer instead of a phone. I think it went quite well!


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## Hector4 (Sep 16, 2013)

Can't wait for the progress report! Sorry premack didn't work for you.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Hector4 said:


> Can't wait for the progress report! Sorry premack didn't work for you.


Not to nit-pick, but premack is always in play and Pavlov is always on your shoulder! Whether you make this work for goals or not is always up to you! But there's no getting around them!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Last night we started structured walking time at the college, and it went very well! After 15min we were walking 20ft circles in the parking lot near the car on a short loose leash with only a collar. No screaming, no pulling (except to occasionally stop and stare into the distance), and lots of focus. We started off a little rough, but he actually got the idea more quickly than I expected. His eyes even lit up once he realized we were working and he could earn treats. 

I think one reason it went so well is that we started working on leash training with the penalty yards method a couple weeks ago. Once he realized that our work outside was the same thing we had worked on in and around the house, things went pretty quickly. There would have been a lot more frustration without that foundation.

I also used the car like a crate (since I can't fit a crate in the car) - we did the intro crate games stuff, like sitting when I went to open the door, waiting until released, and going back in for a reset when he started shrieking or lunging. It worked very well to not move away from the car until he was calm and focused. I've always made him wait to be released from the car, but I made the mistake of not also requiring calm - he would wait while vibrating to be released, which made him explode out of the car. Last night I also expected him to immediately focus on me after exiting the car, instead of lunging off in every direction.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Tonight didn't go as well, but you win some you lose some. We still got out of the car and moved about 5 steps out and back.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> . It could be that I'm not using it quite right, but if that's true then it's a more complicated reward system than I realized.


 I really don't think it's a matter of you using it wrong, or it being complicated. It's more that it's a very POWERFUL reward system, and one that should be used judiciously imo. Easy to overdo and difficult to counteract if need be, once in place. Like puppy crack times 1000. Proceed, but with caution.



> What I really want is for him to just look to me for rewards right now and not think about how excited he is to sniff


 Right. Although to nitpick I'd rather say look to you for direction


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Tonight didn't go as well, but you win some you lose some. We still got out of the car and moved about 5 steps out and back.


This is what I meant by powerful and difficult to overcome.

Won't happen overnight, but you know that of course. Stick with it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Last night I also expected him to immediately focus on me after exiting the car, instead of lunging off in every direction.


This.

EVERY time my dogs exit their crate they are required to go through me first. I may immediately release them after that, or I may not. Tedious? Perhaps. But without control TO BEGIN WITH you got nothin', is my philosophy.


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## katbou (Jan 24, 2012)

Watson's video looks a lot like Cap (Brittany) did when he went somewhere new. Cap has gotten a lot better. Not perfect but manageable. Lots of drive. Cap is just about to turn 3. He is so much better than he was a year ago. I think age cures a lot. Things starting getter better shortly after he turned 2.

Like you, I have put a ton of time and effort into this dog. It is paying off. He is turning into a really GOOD dog. Last weekend he got out while our chickens were free ranging. He was 20 feet from me. I told him leave it, sit, and stay. He did all 3. When I got to him, he was shaking all over but still sitting. This would not have happened a year ago. 

Is Watson getting the same amount of exercise as he used to? That makes a huge difference for Cap.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

katbou said:


> Watson's video looks a lot like Cap (Brittany) did when he went somewhere new. Cap has gotten a lot better. Not perfect but manageable. Lots of drive. Cap is just about to turn 3. He is so much better than he was a year ago. I think age cures a lot. Things starting getter better shortly after he turned 2.
> 
> Like you, I have put a ton of time and effort into this dog. It is paying off. He is turning into a really GOOD dog. Last weekend he got out while our chickens were free ranging. He was 20 feet from me. I told him leave it, sit, and stay. He did all 3. When I got to him, he was shaking all over but still sitting. This would not have happened a year ago.
> 
> Is Watson getting the same amount of exercise as he used to? That makes a huge difference for Cap.


Nice to hear from someone with a similarly crazy young male sporting dog! We actually considered britts before someone talked me into Welshies and while Watson isn't crazy high energy most of the time, he has more drive than I expected (especially considering he's not bred with hunting in mind).

He just turned 2 and I've seen some great changes in the past 6 months, so I'm sure you're right that it will take more time. 

I think he's getting the same amount of exercise. On weeks he's home with my husband he definitely is. On weeks when he's with me he gets multiple walks a day from my parents while I'm at work. I don't know exactly how far they go, but I'm sure that combined it's as much as he got previously. I wish he had more opportunity to run around off leash, but he gets crazy and zooms off, not responding to me at all, so off leash is limited. We do have a small dog park area at the apartment and I used to take him there every night (without other dogs), but he would just pace the fence line and he didn't seem to be enjoying himself. Oh well.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Last night we skipped the college and did our training session in a quiet parking lot behind Target. It went very well! Even though there was still grass and trees and cars driving around, Target is clearly less stimulating for him than the college.

But the best part of the night was when we got home. I've been taking him out on a harness and long line for potty breaks, which isn't ideal (I would rather keep all walks more structured for now), but with no yard I have to take him out somehow when we're not working on loose leash walking. So he's trotting out ahead, I quietly said his name, and he whipped around and came racing back. He normally has a fine recall on a long line, but this was fantastic and he looked so happy. Clearly working on our connection in one situation effects his attitude in other situations. 

I'm starting to think that if we can fix his issues on leash that it will be one giant step closer to off leash reliability. All this time I've been trying to work on his recall and impulse control separately, but I think the issue is a more holistic one of connection with me while we're outside.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

I'm just now getting a chance to look at your videos, and I have to say, Watson looks very similar to my young intact male BC. The zigzagging back and forth, the frustrated/excited squeaking, the "I know you're there, but I just CAN'T look at you right now" behavior. True to breed stereotypes, Scot does a lot less sniffing than Watson and a lot more "Look at that! Look at that! Look at that!" head-swiveling. Very frustrating, as he has almost zero interest in cookies when he's in this mode. Luckily, he's not like that everywhere, just mainly on the sidewalks in our own subdivision. Elsewhere, he's much calmer, which seems a little strange!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Shep said:


> I'm just now getting a chance to look at your videos, and I have to say, Watson looks very similar to my young intact male BC. The zigzagging back and forth, the frustrated/excited squeaking, the "I know you're there, but I just CAN'T look at you right now" behavior. True to breed stereotypes, Scot does a lot less sniffing than Watson and a lot more "Look at that! Look at that! Look at that!" head-swiveling. Very frustrating, as he has almost zero interest in cookies when he's in this mode. Luckily, he's not like that everywhere, just mainly on the sidewalks in our own subdivision. Elsewhere, he's much calmer, which seems a little strange!


That actually makes me a feel a lot better  Sometimes I get herding dog envy and think they are more biddable than my dog and have better natural impulse control, but I guess it's a grass is always greener thing. And I hear from owners of other intact male dogs around his age that the behavior is pretty typical.

Mostly I have girl dog envy. I meet so many female Welshies his age and younger at shows and they are *so* much less spazzy. Then I see his male cousin who is 3 months older and just as crazy and I feel like Watson is pretty normal. Haha

I guess I should also be glad that his problems are overstimulation and not anxiety or fear.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

How are things going???


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Canyx said:


> How are things going???


Glad you asked! Things are going better. I've been focusing a lot on LLW on a collar, much more than I ever have before. And I've had the attitude that he will walk on a loose leash, and he won't act like an idiot, and I've enforced this consistently. He seems to have a much better idea of what I want, and actually seems quite proud of himself that he's figured it out.

We haven't been able to get to the college in a couple weeks, so training has been closer to home where he was better anyway, but he's gotten much better even there. He can now walk around the apartment complex on a loose leash, and in the off leash area he's starting to be able to focus on me instead of pacing around frantically trying to sniff everything. 

The lesson I've learned is how to expect good behavior, and how to demand it in a patient and gentle way. I was trying so hard to do things at his speed and when he offered them, but he just figured out that he could offer things when he wanted, get rewarded, and then do what he wanted the rest of the time. Now I am requiring good behavior and he has stepped up. He knows what behavior I want from him, I've built up the foundation, he just never knew that it was a requirement, because I didn't make it a requirement.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

That is so great to hear! I knew you two would be able to get it  And as you are well aware, there may be good days and bad... But sounds like things are on an uphill trend! I'm proud of you two and especially how you approached, thought on, and acted on this problem.

Not a priority... But I'm sure everyone would love to see the 'after' video when you have time one of these days!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Canyx said:


> That is so great to hear! I knew you two would be able to get it  And as you are well aware, there may be good days and bad... But sounds like things are on an uphill trend! I'm proud of you two and especially how you approached, thought on, and acted on this problem.
> 
> Not a priority... But I'm sure everyone would love to see the 'after' video when you have time one of these days!


Thanks! Of course, there are good and bad days, but I feel more capable of responding to the bad days now, instead of feeling helpless. So much of the PR literature tells you to never let your dog get over threshold, but sometimes, and with some dogs, that's just not possible. I can't just back up from the entire environment enough to keep him from losing his head sometimes. It's not the same sort of thing as reacting to a specific dog or a squirrel or whatever. I also had to shift some of the responsibility to him - he is now responsible for walking politely and following my cues and it's my job to be consistent with consequences or rewards depending on his behavior. I took too much responsibility on myself and didn't require anything of him.

I can definitely get an after video next week! I'll have to try going back to the college too, and see if he has improved there from our work everywhere else.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

So glad you're making progress!



elrohwen said:


> Glad you asked! Things are going better. I've been focusing a lot on LLW on a collar, much more than I ever have before. And I've had the attitude that he will walk on a loose leash, and he won't act like an idiot, and I've enforced this consistently. He seems to have a much better idea of what I want, and actually seems quite proud of himself that he's figured it out.


What is your technique for LLW? Ryker is not terrible, but he's not great either. Gypsy has no leash skills. I've tried being a tree and that does not work. I wouldn't even walk 2 ft if I did that. Right now I'm walking them on harnesses because I'm afraid they will hurt their necks if they pull. Most of the time I just run with them and they don't pull much when running, but if we are walking they will pull. I've tried using treats to get them to stay at my side, but they have 0 interest in treats when they are outside


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

jade5280 said:


> So glad you're making progress!
> 
> 
> 
> What is your technique for LLW? Ryker is not terrible, but he's not great either. Gypsy has no leash skills. I've tried being a tree and that does not work. I wouldn't even walk 2 ft if I did that. Right now I'm walking them on harnesses because I'm afraid they will hurt their necks if they pull. Most of the time I just run with them and they don't pull much when running, but if we are walking they will pull. I've tried using treats to get them to stay at my side, but they have 0 interest in treats when they are outside


I started over with penalty yards by teaching it inside slowly until he got the idea, then taking it outside. I had originally tried it outside, and he just did not get it. I may have had a goal ("walk to that tree/crack in sidewalk/etc") but he didn't know that was our goal. To him, I was just circling back a lot for no reason, while he pulled and did whatever he wanted.

So I took it inside and threw a treat out a couple feet, and he had to walk on a loose leash to get to it (which was not easy!). It took maybe 4-5 days to get him solid, where he could walk on a loose leash the length of the apartment to get a treat, before we took it outside. I started over again with the treat at the door, throwing it just to the threshold, then out to the from step, until he understood, then we were able to move outside without throwing the treat (though it probably would've helped to use the treat even longer outside to help him be more succesful faster). I also introduced an NRM so I could mark the moment he pulled, because turning around and going back was too slow.

Now when we are outside and I turn around, he has the necessary skills to figure out what he should be doing. Trying any kind of leash walking thing from scratch outside just made him really frustrated, because he didn't know how to be successful and he wasn't able to think it through in such a distracting environment.

I do use treats, but much less than I did the other times I tried to teach LLW. I used to think if I treated enough he would stay with me, but I didn't have a consequence for pulling so it didn't work. I do still treat him when he's in the correct position and paying attention, but I don't depend on the treats as much to tell him what he should be doing. He will pretty much always take treats, but if he's distracted they aren't really valuable to him anyway


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks! I've practiced LLW inside, but I don't think I practiced enough and was not consistent.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

jade5280 said:


> Thanks! I've practiced LLW inside, but I don't think I practiced enough and was not consistent.


What have you tried?

I mean, Watson can heel like a pro inside, but that's because he wants to work with me and wants the treats he knows he can get from me. The trick for him was getting the treats off of me and on to the ground. When his motivation changed to something in his environment (which is a better approximation of the outdoors) he had no idea how to walk on a loose leash to get to it and he leaned into the collar and pulled. Once he figured out he had to do to get it, a light bulb went off for him. It only took 4-5 days, with one or two short sessions, for him to get the basic idea, and then I moved outside where the really consistency comes in for us.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Also there is outside and there is OUTSIDE. Try working LLW in boring outside places like the backyard after they have run around to make sure critters are gone, middle of streets and parking lots and the like before working close to wonderful things like trees and such.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Kathyy said:


> Also there is outside and there is OUTSIDE. Try working LLW in boring outside places like the backyard after they have run around to make sure critters are gone, middle of streets and parking lots and the like before working close to wonderful things like trees and such.


At least for Watson, there is no such thing as "boring outside". Haha. Hence my issues! Parking lots are definitely better than grass, but still hard for him many days. We still haven't really graduated past sidewalks for polite walking.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> The lesson I've learned is how to expect good behavior, and how to demand it in a patient and gentle way. I was trying so hard to do things at his speed and when he offered them, but he just figured out that he could offer things when he wanted, get rewarded, and then do what he wanted the rest of the time. Now I am requiring good behavior and he has stepped up. He knows what behavior I want from him, I've built up the foundation, he just never knew that it was a requirement, because I didn't make it a requirement.


That's really interesting. So the environment is a stronger reinforcement than the treats and the pulling and craziness on walks was reinforcing itself. If I'm understanding your process properly in order to get *any access at all* to the environment (even out of the car) he has to be focused and on loose lead. Makes total sense!

This is a question I've sometimes had difficulty answering as well when working on loose leash at the shelter. How do you manage to keep criteria low enough that they can be successful but not allowing reinforcement of bad behaviour? You can't expect a perfect LLW first go round but each time you let the dog pull it practices bad behaviour. So if I'm on a walk and c/t just looking at me am I also allowing the pulling behaviour to be reinforced? How to avoid this issue?

A little for topic now, but your description really reminded me of the pickle.

Edit; just saw your most recent post... Sounds like you basically moved to environmental reinforcers (getting to the treat or tree or pee spot etc) and got really consistent about requiring your criteria. Glad it's working, and it sounds like a pretty great technique!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

aiw said:


> That's really interesting. So the environment is a stronger reinforcement than the treats and the pulling and craziness on walks was reinforcing itself. If I'm understanding your process properly in order to get *any access at all* to the environment (even out of the car) he has to be focused and on loose lead. Makes total sense!
> 
> This is a question I've sometimes had difficulty answering as well when working on loose leash at the shelter. How do you manage to keep criteria low enough that they can be successful but not allowing reinforcement of bad behaviour? You can't expect a perfect LLW first go round but each time you let the dog pull it practices bad behaviour. So if I'm on a walk and c/t just looking at me am I also allowing the pulling behaviour to be reinforced? How to avoid this issue?
> 
> ...


What you describe is pretty much exactly what I struggled with. I thought if I rewarded him enough for what I wanted, he would just offer it more and more, but the environment itself is way too stimulating and rewarding for him. Even once I realized that, I had no idea how to control his access to it (other than putting him on a leash, of course, but he's been leashed since 9 months). It's not like the entire environment is a simple and specific thing to use as a reward, and he could still self-reward on a 6ft leash. I had also tried to use the environment as a reward, by letting him sniff and do what he wanted if he was being good, but he just got more and more worked up ("Omg, I'm sitting! Can I go sniff now?! Barkbark"). I had to go back to the beginning and require calm and polite behavior in order to get any access to the environment. I also had to teach loose leash walking away from the environment, because previously he would just get frustrated and not know what I could possibly want. So far it's going really well and I feel like I have so much more control over the situation.

I do still take him out and let him do his thing on a prong or harness, but I'm much quicker to reel him in and make him walk right next to me if he's being a butthead. And every single time he's on a collar and leash, even if we're just going to the car, I hold strict criteria or we go back and try again.

I honestly don't know how you'd apply this to a shelter dog, since they're generally young, under exercised, and have no foundation training. If you just required the dog to walk with a loose leash to get outside, you might spend 45min to go one step, and then the dog has to go back in his cage. Definitely frustrating for him and for you. I would probably just want to use a front clip harness or something to manage the problem and give the dog some exercise, and then spend a few minutes at the end of the walk working on LLW specifically.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I didn't realize that you responded to my statement for some reason I'm not getting notifications.

Any ways I will put on a leash and practice touch while walking around the house and treating if they stay at my side without pulling. Outside it is just so different. Esp. w/Gypsy. She is SUPER food motivated inside and wont even take treats outside at all. SHE WILL SPIT THEM OUT if I put them in her mouth. They both will. Ryker is better because he doesn't get as over stimulated as Gypsy does outside. Gypsy just likes to sniff everything. I'm hoping as she spends more time with us that being outside will become less exciting for her. Maybe everything is just to new to her.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

jade5280 said:


> I didn't realize that you responded to my statement for some reason I'm not getting notifications.
> 
> Any ways I will put on a leash and practice touch while walking around the house and treating if they stay at my side without pulling. Outside it is just so different. Esp. w/Gypsy. She is SUPER food motivated inside and wont even take treats outside at all. SHE WILL SPIT THEM OUT if I put them in her mouth. They both will. Ryker is better because he doesn't get as over stimulated as Gypsy does outside. Gypsy just likes to sniff everything. I'm hoping as she spends more time with us that being outside will become less exciting for her. Maybe everything is just to new to her.


I don't think your method of training inside is working because keeping the leash loose is never the primary criteria, so when you go outside she still doesn't know that's what you want. She knows how to touch, she knows to look at you, and she knows that you have food, but like you said, outside the food doesn't matter to her anymore. If the only way she's rewarded indoors is with treats from you and outdoors those are no longer a high value reward, then none of the foundations you've done in the house are going to apply. She doesn't want treats, so why would she look to you and walk next to you? This is exactly what I'm learning to work through with Watson, and I think he has a ton in common with your two.

Read over the stuff I did indoors with Watson. It was totally a light bulb moment for both of us. He finally really understood that keeping the leash loose was what allowed him to get the treat (which was on the floor, not on me) and that has translated really well to the outdoors. Leash stays loose, he can move forward into the environment. Leash gets tight, we go back (to the car or the house if necessary. Not that he's taking mile long walks with a perfectly loose leash yet, but if he pulls and I move back to correct him, he gets it now and does better the next time. When I tried it in the past, he just got frustrated and started shrieking at me, because he didn't understand what he needed to do to get what he wanted. Just teaching him to walk next to me and make eye contact did nothing for showing him what I wanted on walks and, more importantly, how that got him what he wanted.


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