# Won't let me take leash OFF



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Sadie has developed a weird behavior. When we go out, she lets me put her leash on - she sits down and lifts her head so I can easily snap it on the D-ring. When we come back in (and she comes in no problem, when it's time she runs to the door and sits down), as soon as I reach for the clasp, she starts spazzing and thrashing around, snarling and biting the leash and me. I have tried to wait until she calms down but she will run in circles around me and choke herself on the leash and then attack it. It takes up to 10 mins for her to stop - and it's getting WORSE. She used to let me take it off easily. 

I'm not sure what is going on. It's not like after we come in she goes to her crate, usually we go play in the living room or my office, or she gets a bully stick so I can work in the office. Sometimes the cats are right inside so I could understand if it had to do with her wanting to chase them, but it happens every time, and it's getting worse and worse. She has gotten better about putting it on, but not letting me take it off. It also happens most of the time if I just leave it on her and wait until later to remove it.

We have class today and I am going to talk to our teacher, but any ideas from you guys?


----------



## borzoimom (May 21, 2007)

Go back to basics- sit- hook lead, treat- keep the sit- take lead off.. Then advance sit- hook lead- walk out the door- come back- sit lead off- etc.. If you give treats when you come back from a walk that could explain what the anticipation of getting the lead off- ie if lead comes off- I get cookies.. If that is the case - treat at the removal of the lead.. Or- pause a few minutes after it comes off before cookies..


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I have never given her any treats when we come back because she never hated having the leash come off. She does it even after a potty break, not just walks. If she wanted the leash off why would she bite me when I try to remove it? I don't understand what you're saying.

However, the first part I get, to practice just putting it on and off without going anywhere, right? But if I try to take it off and she is spazzing out, what am I supposed to do? If I wait for her to stop it doesn't seem to be doing any good now.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I would actually wait her out, and I'd set up addiitonal opportunities for her to try it and see that it doesn't work. If it takes 10 minutes the first couple of times- that's okay. (Irritating, but okay). I would stand there and ignore her- and let her have a tantrum on the leash. It's not going to get her anything. As soon as she gives attention back to you (if her sits are good, I'd wait till she offers a sit), unsnap the lead and hand her a treat. Ideally, you'd get to do this between 3-5 times a day (but I realize the first couple days, that's almost an hour of sitting around waiting for her to chill. So if you can manage it 2x a day, that's okay.) Give it 5 days and see if you see ANY reduction in the time she does it. It will get worse before it gets better- google 'extinction burst' for info about why- but then it will disappear pretty quickly after that. 

I've known a few dogs who did this- two border collies and a elkhound- all of whom apparently figured that since the leash meant going on walks, if you were still on the leash, Mom WOULD take you for another walk.  Ignoring the bratty behavior extinguished it in about 2 weeks.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Cait, the problem is that is what I tried to do, and it has gotten worse. That was my first thought, when she did it once I waited for her to calm down, and it was just a minute. Since then it gets longer and longer each time, not shorter and shorter. I don't mind going from 10 mins down, but that's not the case. 

I haven't tried with treats yet though. I can keep trying but I am just worried it is going to keep getting worse. Or maybe she's doing the extinction burst now? Because I am ignoring it and waiting? But I would think that would happen if there had been a reward for the behavior in the first place and I can't think of what it is.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

How long has it been? I suspect you're seeing the extinction burst.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

It started about 1 week ago I guess? It was just awful today she was snarling making this awful noise. It almost seems like she thinks it's a fun game which is why I would have expected her to stop sooner, because as far as I can tell I am not reinforcing the game.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I'd bet you're seeing the extinction burst then- I'd give it 3 more days, and if you don't see any decrease, I'll think of something else. But right now, I am thinking of CHOCOLATE. (Back in half an hour, I'm going to the store to buy ingredients for cake.)


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

ROTF. Thanks


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

Your dog is small, right? If it were me, I'd pick her up and remove the leash for a while. My dog became quite scared of his leash after I used a retractor leash and dropped it. It chased him around and he was really scared. Then I went back to his other leash, but he was still scared. 

I started picking him up to attach and remove the leash for a while. Now he is fine again.


----------



## shewolf4 (Feb 24, 2008)

> all of whom apparently figured that since the leash meant going on walks, if you were still on the leash, Mom WOULD take you for another walk.


So leave the leash on and "walk" her around the house- not the usual. If she figured out "the walks" with the leash, who is to say that we have to remove the leash if she wants it on? Leave it on, make her work around the house and then put her in sit to remove the leash- she doesnt want to- fine, a little more work then, lots of praise for the work done. It takes a little time and patience, but she should figure it out pretty quickly


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Cait, I think you were right. I never even had a chance to try with treats. When we got home from class on Saturday, we came in and she let me take it off without any trouble. 

I was getting really stressed because it was getting worse, and I had never heard of an "extinction burst". I knew the concept from what I have read about training but since I couldn't figure out what the reward for this behavior was, I didn't think this was it. I guess at some point it had gotten some kind of reward. 

I did put a new box of treats by the door so I can use them if I need to, but she has been really great about the leash coming off since Saturday afternoon. 

Now I think she just wanted to prove me wrong  Wait until mommy makes a post about it then stop. Little bugger.

Oh and she's relatively small but a squirmer. I don't want to pick up a thrashing, snarling and biting dog, she would likely hurt me and herself. She jumped out of my arms once already and made a noise I never want to hear again. I only carry her when I can use both arms to secure her and I wouldn't be able to remove the leash then


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

YAAAAY! 

Congrats on you for seeing it all the way through. That is the HARDEST thing about extinction bursts- because it's just so frustrating and tempting to intervene. (And normally, you don't want ot let a dog reherse a bad behavior.) 

You'll probably see a flare up once in a while, but the worst of it is over. Don't you LOVE spitztantrums? X)

Well, and small is relative.  I've got friends with toy breeds, so to me, an Eskie (mini OR standard) isn't all that tiny.  (Lizzie is 11 pounds and 13.2" this morning, btw.)


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I weighed Sadie last night to see, she's about 9 lbs. She's going to outgrow Lizzie any day!  13" from the shoulders right?


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Yup, at the shoulders. Sadie SHOULD be between 15-19" and I'm betting she'll be closer to the lower end of that than the higher- I don't see many 19" Eskies at all.


----------



## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Glad to hear that you seem to have sorted her goofies out!!! Those extinction bursts can be SOOOOOOO frustrating!!!


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

"spitztantrums" - Well I think maybe she had one of those! We just got back from a walk and halfway through, she started attacking the leash and me. It was insane, I've never seen her act this way. She's been running all over the place this morning so I figured going out for a run would help, but once we got to the park and tried to run, she attacked my legs and the leash. Then it took us 30 minutes to walk one block home. I don't want to encourage pulling so I did what our trainer said, if they pull forward, slowly walk back and they will make the leash loose. Well, that worked great in the house and at class. Today all she did was throw herself around and run in circles and bite everything in sight. I would wait until she was sitting or laying down and not pulling on the leash, but as soon as I took one step forward again she shot off like a rocket. 

The most frustrating thing is that on Sunday we walked the whole way around the block with no problems. Loose leash, on my left. She was perfect. 

Today she was like a devil dog. Now she's just staring at me with evil eyes and sharp little razor teeth. 

What the hell. I want my nice Sadie back.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Bwhahahah. You have a teenager! Time to up the exercise a little and get more creative on the training. (More puzzle toys like buster cubes, start free-shaping more tricks with a REALLY high rate of reinforcement, and keep your expectations low on anything that requires sitting still or self control for a couple of months.) Lizzie is ALMOST out of season, if you're up for a playdate.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Argh. DH is going to love this  

We have a moleculeball which is like a buster cube with the treats, but she never tries to do it, she'll just sniff it but not flip it over. 

She's getting pretty good at the roll-over trick, we can work on more like that. Like shake paws or spin, right? 

I guess we'll have to spend more time at the park - the hardest part is getting there. Then she will run around on the long lead but it always ends up with her chasing me. Then if I throw a ball or something she just pays attention to my hand. 

I'd love to play, I'm a bit worried now about how she'd react around a new dog. She has been doing okay with our neighborhood dogs. But yeah we should get together soon!


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I bet she'd do okay. Lizzie gets along great with nearly everyone. Try paw, or spin- or start working on a retrieve. 

Lizzie had sit, down, stand, standing target, tug/out, and the beginning of a (formal, with front) recall by 4 months. It has ALL FALLEN out of her brain right now.  You'r egoing to meet her and think I'm a horrible trainer.

Cait


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

LOL I know what you mean, all of my neighbors were so impressed with Sadie's sit and down and I even taught one of their dogs sit. Then today I'm out there just praying none of them look out their window as Sadie is acting possessed. 

I'll have to find some tips on teaching fetch, she will run after a ball inside and bring it to me but then she runs off with it before dropping it. I'd assume giving her a treat when she gets to me would do it, I just haven't tried. When we're outside it's a different story, the toys just aren't interesting anymore lol.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Check out Shirley Chong's shaped retrieve on ShirleyChong.com (it's under the 'keepers' section.) 

Also, if I bring Lizzie over for a playdate and there is pea soup coming out of your dog, I'm running. Just sayin' . 

Now that she's htiting that distractable stage, you might want to order yourself a copy of Control Unleashed.  The timing is great for you to start reading about focus.


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Thanks! 

Pea Soup? Am I missing something? 

Stupid library doesn't have Control Unleashed. I'll have to pick up a copy at the store.


----------



## kelliope (Apr 4, 2008)

jesirose said:


> Pea Soup? Am I missing something?


I'm guessing "The Exorcist".


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Must be before my time 
(I've heard of the movie, but never seen it. And I have a feeling I don't want to!)


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

But it's classic! (In fairness, I've only seen it on video.) (We start saying "Look out for pea soup!" whenever one of the dogs starts acting particularly psychotic, which can range from just plain bizaare (Indy's 3 day fascination one October with his reflection in the oven door, which he had ignored for years and has ignored ever since) to extreme zoomies.)


----------



## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Okay I get it now - because she's posessed. I was thinking you thought she had the runs or something. *headdesk*

We were out on the back patio yesterday and Sadie was zooming around, and ran straight into the glass door, then just sat there and stared at it. It was quite amusing.


----------

