# Aggression over food and other things that he shouldn't have......



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

We have a 5.5 month old Lab/Shepard mix. We got him at 4 months old from a 17 year old girl (who had a grown shepard) who couldn't take care of him. We was not house broken, not crate trained, and very unsure/whiney.....

He started off very sweet......although not super cuddly or affectionate. We can essentially touch him anywhere on his body, pick him up, bath him, no problem. He doesn't beg for our food, or hang around the table to watch us eat. He doesn't run away if you take him off-leash. He's VERY social and good with other dogs. He's totally welcoming of visitors to the house, and only barks at people on the street because he wants to go meet them. The biggest issue we faced initially was separation anxiety and crate training/whining/barking/howling all night in the crate. Now both of those are solved, but we've noticed some new aggressive behaviours surfacing that we're concerned about.

Essentially he's been getting increasingly protective over his food (which goes as far as growling and snapping when we even try and go near the empty dish), and once he chased me away for going near the counter that the food was on to prepare it (he's on a raw diet, so it's essentially a bag of raw meat). I left it on the counter to go get something, and when I came back he sat on the floor infront of it and growled at me for approaching, and lunged at me when I came any closer. I had to distract him with the doorbell to get him away, leash him, and then feed him.

Today, he attacked my dad for stepping over him while he was eating a bone. He didn't hurt him (luckily) but it startled him, as it came out of nowhere. My dad wasn't even trying to take it away. He was just sitting on the landing of the stairs and my dad needed to get by.

I don't know where this aggression came from all of a sudden..... I've just started to notice it in the last week and a half.... he isn't neutered yet.... so maybe it's increasing testosterone and is an age-thing? Or maybe he's pushing his limits in his new home, now that he feels comfortable enough? Either way I'm getting really worried. I'm 7 months pregnant, so obviously have concerns for my own safety at this point, as well as the baby in a few months. He's growing fast, and will pretty soon be a really big boy. Any thoughts? I've been watching Caesar Milan videos and trying to do some reading, but he's already over 40 lbs (and will probably grow to at least 65 if not more), so it's not easy to just take something away from him, or go near him when he's growling. I've been trying to train him in other areas to show him I'm boss, like making him sit and stay before going outside, feeding him, etc, and walking him on a short training leash. 

He gets outside on walks 2-3 times daily, and we play with him with his toys in the house, and he gets plenty of love and socialization with other people/dogs at doggy training on Saturdays, and goes to the off-leash park to run free and play ball on Sundays. So I just don't know what I'm doing wrong. We've never owned a dog before (I had a family dog growing up, but I wasn't the one to do the training)...... so I'm trying to get him into good habits now while he is young, but I feel like I'm making him worse. HELP!?!


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Please stop with Cesar. He's the worst thing you can do for a shy, or insecure dog - in fact any dog that isn't beyond rock solid and somewhat hard will be ruined by his approach, and there's a reason he's been bitten by so many dog's he's 'working on' with resource guarding. 

Your best bet for food aggression/resource guarding is to make him feel SAFE. At its heart it's based on insecurity - fear you're going to take his food/toy/valued thing away. So, first of all keep everyone else safe, as well as making him feel that way. Feed him in his crate. Give extra good treats to him there, too (it'll also help the crate training). Let him decompress and settle a little. 

Then start working by making your presence near his stuff POSITIVE. Walk by (from a good distance) when he has some moderately low-ish value thing and throw highish value treats. Ie: Toss cooked chicken toward him when all he has is boring old kibble. After he starts looking to you coming close as a positive you can pay trading games where you trade him what he's got for something BETTER.

It will work. It will take time but if you look at him from teh perspective of a kid going "OH NO PLEASE DON"T TAKE IT!!" instead of "MINE MINE MINE GARWL SNARL" then it'll help you mentally. It's also true. Fearful dogs, insecure dogs, all look about the same as a dog who wants to eat your face. Unfortunately, responding to it like he's being aggressive/wants to hurt you/is being nasty instead of worried about you taking his stuff can just make the problem worse.

He doesn't need to be shown you're the boss, honestly. YOu have thumbs, food, and the brain. He's a puppy. Trust me, he knows you're in charge without any other nonsense or the need to play power games.


----------



## chicaMX (Jan 20, 2015)

Well, I happen to like Cesar even though I know some people don't. Yes, you dog is aggressive because it is not neutered. Was there ever a doubt that it was not a related issue? 

As for the food aggression, I have a DA dog breed. So, we do several things to control dog food aggression... We eat first to establish dominance. Then we make her sit on the other side of the room waiting for the release command to eat. We will at different times bend down and grab her food bowl away. She will sit patiently waiting until we put the food bowl back on the ground. Sometimes I will hold the bowl while she eats. Other times I will completely stand over the bowl while she eats. A friend of mine told me she used to hold the bowl of food giving her dog a few pieces of food at a time IF the dog did a command. Good luck


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ROFL.

I've got nothing , just a whole lot of laughing and hoping someone with a little more time comes along to address this. 

But let me two two quick points here:
A-) There is a reason cesar is regularly bitten by dogs he's is 'rehabilitating' from resource guarding (and bitten badly).

B-) I've got a couple of fully mature, intact males, who would like to differ with you on your opinions of intact dogs being aggressive. Particularly a puppy so young it hasn't hit 'puberty' yet.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

I guess I should also mention:

1) We are feeding raw, so hard to feed him in his crate, and also hard to add anything of higher value then raw meat/bone to his bowl as he goes.

2) We aren't using treats to train him. Our trainer/dietician suggested not using treats, as they mess with the raw diet and digestion.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

It's often hard for us to "eat first" because we don't really do sit-down family meals.

A few things that have changed lately:

1) Our dietician (I use this term loosely as the lady that we buy the raw meals from) suggested that we switch him from eating twice a day, morning and night, to once a day (which is mostly in the evenings when we get home from work). The aggression started around the same time we switched.

2) We've started leaving him out of the crate during the day. He isn't destructive, and is house trained, so instead of locking him in the crate when we aren't home, we just leave him out with all the room doors closed. So he's free to sleep in his crate with the door open, or wander around the main floor or upstairs landing.

3) Christmas holidays ended and my husband and I had to go back to work. So my dad has started coming to our house during the day to walk him and spend time with him. So I usually get up with him at 7:45am, walk him, and leave for work around 10am. My dad comes around 1pm-3pm to walk him and play with him, and then my husband is home around 5pm. He gets another walk in the evening. 

4) He's most certainly teething. I've been finding teeth around the house, and his toys often have blood on them. So I'm sure his mouth is hurting.

The dog lady suggested that we don't neuter him, as it can lead to developmental issues down the road. Especially in labs, who are prone to bone and hip problems... it's not good for them to not develop properly.

I'm a first time dog owner, and we just so happened to stumble upon this lady who runs a doggie daycare, who also has published books on training and raw diets, so we've sort of just used her as our dog guru and taken all of her courses and advice. She's very much into the natural ways of feeding raw, not neutering, not using treats...... and her dogs are VERY obedient.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Well, I can tell you that what your trainer told you is ridiculous. You can use treats while on a raw diet. They don't mess with anything. If you're really that concerned about it, use some dehydrated organs or meat. Treat rewards are by far the most effective way to help train dogs (not ALL - some do prefer a game of tug or praise, but I'd go so far as to say most, or at least close to a majority).


----------



## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Effisia said:


> Well, I can tell you that what your trainer told you is ridiculous. You can use treats while on a raw diet. They don't mess with anything. If you're really that concerned about it, use some dehydrated organs or meat. Treat rewards are by far the most effective way to help train dogs (not ALL - some do prefer a game of tug or praise, but I'd go so far as to say most, or at least close to a majority).


Worded better and nicer than I was going to say.

First of all the techniques that Ceasar uses have been proven dangerous and ineffective for decades now (before he even started his little dog whisperer show and related spin offs) by the exact same guy who suggested them to begin with. 

Second, I'd find a new trainer, she may be "experienced" but what she's been telling you isn't exactly true/safe. 

I actually feed one of my raw dogs in a crate and another behind a baby gate, makes for easier clean up and less fights. Believe me I have giant dogs (one outweighs me by a few dozen pounds) and I have mobility/dexterity issues I can't afford to get between them if they fight. Crate feeding is a good thing. 
Treats range anywhere from cheese to dehydrated meats and fruits. I've even used cat kibble. As long as the dog in question doesn't have any allergies than treat anything you like (that's dog appropriate/non toxic)


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

> I'm a first time dog owner, and we just so happened to stumble upon this lady who runs a doggie daycare, who also has published books on training and raw diets, so we've sort of just used her as our dog guru and taken all of her courses and advice. She's very much into the natural ways of feeding raw, not neutering, not using treats...... and her dogs are VERY obedient.


I don't know of many 'dietician' slash doggy daycare operators slash authors who also happen to be skilled trainers well versed in sorting out their client's RG issues. In fact, I don't know of any.

I figure dump the jack of all trades, and hire a real, professional trainer whose one and only area of expertise is behavior. Think of it this way. If you find that your current "guru" is offended that you're going elsewhere for training, purveyors of raw food are easy to come by. To my knowledge no dog has ever mauled a newborn child because of an imbalanced diet. So when it comes to RGing and the potential for serious injury to loved ones, I'd rank the trainer's importance far far higher than that of anyone else.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> I don't know of many 'dietician' slash doggy daycare operators slash authors who also happen to be skilled trainers well versed in sorting out their client's RG issues. In fact, I don't know of any.
> 
> I figure dump the jack of all trades, and hire a real, professional trainer whose one and only area of expertise is behavior. Think of it this way. If you find that your current "guru" is offended that you're going elsewhere for training, purveyors of raw food are easy to come by. To my knowledge no dog has ever mauled a newborn child because of an imbalanced diet. So when it comes to RGing and the potential for serious injury to loved ones, I'd rank the trainer's importance far far higher than that of anyone else.


I also recommend a qualified, force-free trainer to help with your issues. Pet Professional Guild is a good resource.

For general information about how someone with credentials in animal behavior works with resource guarding, have a look here: Resource Guarding: Treatment and Prevention

And, the lady who sells raw meat said not to feed anything else. And people complain about conflict of interest among vets.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

In regard to the raw food and not having something higher value; could you maybe just give part of the meal at first and then use the rest the same way Cpt Jack mentioned tossing it into the bowl as he's eating the first part?


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Raw feeder and the owner of an ex SEVERE resource guarder here.

Crate your dog, or isolate him when he's being fed. I don't know what's so hard about crating a dog eating raw? My dog gets fed in his crate just fine.

You can also start hand feeding your dog. Do you feed ground or PMR? If you feed ground, it is very easy for you to roll up the food into little meat balls and train with him and get him used to associating you with yummy things! If it's PMR, you can still do the same, although it might be a bit more difficult.

Start the trade up game. Start off with lower value stuff, like treats, toys, etc. and work slowly up to raw. If raw is the highest value (it is the same for my dog), then trade it for another raw item.

Just stop with Cesar Milan... Seriously, you're going to end up with a problem dog and you or someone you love will get bit.

Patricia McConnell (an actual BEHAVIORIST with a PhD in animal behavior) has a great blog post on resource guarding:
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/theotherendoftheleash/resource-guarding-treatment-and-prevention


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea, don't use Milan's methods with a resource guarder. It will not end well. As CptJack said, resource guarding is fear/anxiety based, and punishment based techniques will make it worse.

You can absolutely feed treats with a raw diet. I feed about 50/50 raw and kibble to my dogs and often mix them in the same meal. There may be individual dogs that doesn't work for, but it's not a universal truth.

If you want to stay away from commercial treats, use the freeze dried raw such as Stella and Chewy's or Primal, or make your own dehydrated treats. Or small bits of cooked chicken or other lean meats. Treats are such a powerful tool, especially for this problem, don't take them off the table. 

I would personally crate this dog while I was preparing food, and crate him to eat. If something like the incident where he was guarding the food on the counter in the kitchen happened, I would lure him away as you did and then skip the meal altogether. And follow CptJack's advice about tossing fantastic treats from far away, gradually getting closer as your dog gets more comfortable with your presence. The McConnell link above is great, and Jean Donaldson's "Mine!" is also a great resource.

Good luck! The nice thing about resource guarding is that while it seems awful and scary, out of all the problems out there it is one that is relatively simple to address.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

taquitos said:


> Raw feeder and the owner of an ex SEVERE resource guarder here.
> 
> Crate your dog, or isolate him when he's being fed. I don't know what's so hard about crating a dog eating raw? My dog gets fed in his crate just fine.
> 
> ...


The reason I say I can't crate him when eating is because the food is actual pieces of meat.... large turkey bones, pork bones, chicken feet, things that he will remove from the bowl, and pull apart with his paws. So He has a special eating mat for cold days, otherwise we feed him outside to avoid mess. We've been thinking of putting his mat in the garage to feed him there, it's just hard because we want to watch him eat and can see him out the window in the yard, as opposed to the garage.

He isn't protective over the lower-value stuff. We can take away his toys, enter his crate, take away non-meal related bones.... it's just the raw stuff that he's super protective over. Like if he gets a turkey bone with his meal, he'll guard that thing with his life. This becomes a problem if we don't have 2 hours to feed him, and need to take the bone away to go do other things....I don't want to leave him with it without us there, as he'll take it off the mat and around the house, which isn't cool with raw meat.

Hand feeding him isn't a problem either. He has no problem eating if I give him slabs of meat with my hand, or hold the bowl off the floor while he eats. UNTIL he removes a piece with a bone that takes longer to eat.... he'll remove it from the bowl, take it to the floor, and that's when he'll start to growl at me if I'm still standing there. By then I've sort of lost the control of the bowl. And I can't really hold the piece of meat/bone while he eats it....... it's all slimy and hard to keep my grip.

I've tried dividing the meal up and feeding him small amounts at a time. So if I keep my hand on the bowl, and then remove the bowl when it's done, go back and re-fill, and come back with more food that's fine. But if I put the bowl down to let him eat half, he won't let me take the bowl back, even when it's empty. So I'd have to bring the rest of the meal to the bowl, which just gets hard with raw meat. I guess I can try that....... the issue I had then was that he didn't know when mealtime was over, and would counter-surf looking for "the rest"..... and even growled and chased me away from the kitchen sink once, even though there was nothing there. Guess he could smell the bowl it came from and was guarding that!!!!!


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> The reason I say I can't crate him when eating is because the food is actual pieces of meat.... large turkey bones, pork bones, chicken feet, things that he will remove from the bowl, and pull apart with his paws. So He has a special eating mat for cold days, otherwise we feed him outside to avoid mess. We've been thinking of putting his mat in the garage to feed him there, it's just hard because we want to watch him eat and can see him out the window in the yard, as opposed to the garage.
> 
> He isn't protective over the lower-value stuff. We can take away his toys, enter his crate, take away non-meal related bones.... it's just the raw stuff that he's super protective over. Like if he gets a turkey bone with his meal, he'll guard that thing with his life. This becomes a problem if we don't have 2 hours to feed him, and need to take the bone away to go do other things....I don't want to leave him with it without us there, as he'll take it off the mat and around the house, which isn't cool with raw meat.
> 
> ...


Hmm I don't see how a crate wouldn't be able to accommodate the dog + pieces of meat. I feed PMR myself, and granted my dog is small, but so his is crate... he handles raw pork ribs, chicken wings, chunks of sirloin beef, etc. no problem. And yes, always supervise when feeding.

If he isn't protective over the lower value stuff then all the better to start reinforcing the behavior there. Start with little things and move up.

If he's guarding the kitchen counters, do not feed him there. I'm not you or a professional behaviorist, but can his guarding also be reinforced by habit? What would happen if you broke up the habit?

And I guess it's kind of hard holding onto raw chunks of meat but I don't think it is... What would happen if you broke up the meat into smaller pieces, and just left him alone when he's having larger pieces of bone?

I don't leave my hand in my dog's bowl even when he's eating raw. I hand feed him. I think it would be dangerous to just leave your hand in there when he's guarding so severely.

Anyway, have a look at the link I posted  She's very helpful!

My dog was a horrible guarder... like he used to guard even toys and antlers. I did the trade up game every single day. At first I didn't do it with raw food because like your dog, he was extremely bad when it came to raw. Besides the trade up game, I also started teaching a solid give and leave it (using positive reward based training, absolutely no punishment). It took a long time, but I can get him to drop meat on command now. I still feed him in his crate for safety reasons (he guards his food around other animals and I have raw fed cats who get curious), but I can get him to drop any piece of meat now. I think it took about a full year of constant trading, etc. to get him to do it... but it's possible!


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

If the crate won't work for you, how about getting an ex-pen or baby gates and gating off a corner of a room with his feeding mat? Then it's a larger area and easier to clean up after than a crate.

Management is just such a useful tool while you're working on the behavior. It makes him feel more secure when he's eating and give everyone in the house a visual barrier as well as just physically keeping him in one place and out of the flow of traffic.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

taquitos said:


> Hmm I don't see how a crate wouldn't be able to accommodate the dog + pieces of meat. I feed PMR myself, and granted my dog is small, but so his is crate... he handles raw pork ribs, chicken wings, chunks of sirloin beef, etc. no problem. And yes, always supervise when feeding.
> 
> If he isn't protective over the lower value stuff then all the better to start reinforcing the behavior there. Start with little things and move up.
> 
> ...


The crate can accommodate him eating in there for sure. The issue is more about contamination. I don't want him putting the raw meat on his blankets, getting it all over himself, and then running through the house...... if the meat never touched outside his bowl then that's fine, but it does..... 

I don't feed him on the counters, but I do need to prepare his food somewhere!!! It comes from the fridge and onto the counter, where I transfer it from it's container to his bowl. I do try and vary it up, I've done the transfer from different points on the counter, and on the kitchen table.... but he was mainly guarding the sink where he could smell the bowl it came from sitting in there. Since then, I've rinsed the bowl immediately and added soap....

Most of the meal is in smaller pieces that I can hand-feed him. And those aren't where the problem lies (mostly because he scarfs those so quickly I wouldn't even be able to take them away from him if I tried......).... the problem IS the bigger bones. Think of a giant turkey leg at thanksgiving....... it sometimes takes him an hour to get all the meat off that bone, and then he likes to chew on it for hours after. Well, we don't always have over an hour to supervise him eating a bone in the yard.......we need to be able to have some control enough to take the bone away and give it back to him later in the day if we want to. 

We used to feed him on a mat by the back door, unleashed. No problem. The first time I noticed the aggression was when I was home alone and feeding him, and he decided to take the bone off his eating mat, and onto our living room couch. When I approached him to get him and the raw bone off the couch, he got super aggressive with me, and there was nothing I could do. He wouldn't listen, and would show his teeth if I came close. Before that, I'd never noticed any issues with feeding, but then again I wasn't going close to him when he was eating. 

Since then, I've noticed he'll stop eating and growl if we even walk by his mat, which is a problem because it's between the kitchen table and the sink. 

So those are my issues........ I'm not trying to go and take his meals away, but it concerns me that I can't go near my own kitchen sink if he smells the leftover bowl, or I can't get him away from a bone if we need to take a break for a while from watching him eat it, or we can't get him off the couch if he steals some of his meal and runs. I've been leashing him now during meal time so that he can't leave the mat, but then I can't get near him or his empty bowl to untie him when mealtime is over!


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Does that address the issue though, or just section him off so that no one goes near him? What if we need to leave the house and he hasn't finished with the bone yet? 

If we ate kibble or ground meat, it would be fine, as the meal process probably takes 5 mins, and when it's gone it's gone. Our issues seem to be stemming from a prolonged mealtime of 1-2 hours..... with parts of bone that never get eaten.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

I just put a towel down in my crate and spray it down with diluted vinegar and wipe it... no contamination here. Unless you have an immuno-compromised persons living with you I don't know if it'll really make that big of a difference.

Could you maybe crate him while you prepare his food, and then feed him where ever you want? It would prevent him from guarding the area.

I agree with sassafras about an ex-pen if you don't want to do the crate. You will not be able to take the bone away right now by how he is reacting. It's something that requires lots of patience, practice and trust. At this point he doesn't trust you. Him growling/baring teeth is actually good because he didn't bite you right away. Don't take it personally, they are warning signs that he's not comfortable. I think containing him, whether it be an ex-pen or crate, is the best preventative measure at this point.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Ya, I suppose we can remove all the bedding from the crate, and feed him on a towel in there....... never thought about that. It's just upstairs, so seems like a strange place to bring raw meat, that's all. But worth a try!

Would he learn to start guarding his crate if he gets his meals there? The last thing I want is for him to develop even worse behaviours while trying to correct the first issues!!

What could be some reasons he doesn't trust us? I mean, we've only had him since Dec 15th, so only a month and a half....... we're thinking that maybe the Shepard he used to live with in his old house used to steal his food? The girl we got him from was young and didn't do any training with him, so it's likely that she just put out two bowls of food and the older dog may have helped himself to Oscar's bowl? Oscar's ribs were showing when we got him, so certainly not a healthy, well fed and cared for dog.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Does that address the issue though, or just section him off so that no one goes near him?


It's not a permanent solution, but it keeps everyone safe while you are doing your training and behavior modification to address the guarding.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Do you think that this is an issue we can work on ourselves with a 5.5 month old puppy, or is this something serious enough that we need to get an experienced obedience counsellor immediately?


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

First, get the book "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson.

Second, drop the Ceasar/alpha stuff. Dogs don't see us as pack leaders, they don't see us as other dogs, and there's no need to prove your dominance. Your dog is insecure and thinks you will take his food away, so you need to teach him that good things happen when he is eating and you are nearby. I agree with others that for now, he should be fed in his crate where he can relax and everybody will be safe. Then work on the resource guarding protocol in Mine! separately when you are able to. 

Third, it's baloney that he can't have treats on a raw diet. I think you will find that training goes much faster and is much more pleasant if you use treats. You need to use some sort of reinforcement to teach a dog, and the majority of dogs just aren't that motivated by praise, at least not until praise has been built into a great thing. Some dogs will work well for a toy, but using food is easier for most people and is reinforcing for pretty much every dog.

For resource guarding in particular, offering him very high value treats when he has a bone or something will teach him that you are not there to take it away, but that you actually make good things happen. The old standard of "take the dog's food away multiple times during the meal" will just make a guardy dog more guardy. Imagine if you didn't like people touching your food while you were eating, so to make you ok with it your friend touched and poked your food *all the time*, and then started taking it away. Would you get more annoyed or less annoyed? Hand feeding is fine (though hard with raw diets), but messing with a dog's food and randomly taking it away is a good way to create resource guarding.

And as far as neutering goes, in a puppy that young it's highly unlikely that it's related. I know many adult intact males and none are aggressive. Resource guarding can happen in dogs of all ages and breeds and it is something you can work on, but the methods and people you are currently following make me nervous.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

My husband didn't like the idea of using treats because when we were trying to house train him, we'd give him a treat every time he went outside to pee/poo, and eventually he'll be scratching at the back door every 5 mins to go outside.... just to get the treat. Apparently male dogs can pee a little bit anytime they want to, so he was totally playing us. We have some dehydrated organs and stuff, so I'll start using those to teach the basics...... sit, stay, come, off, down...... 

and I can leave him alone for a few meals to get comfortable, and then start approaching with more meat.... see how he responds to that. I think that sounds like a good place to start. Because it's not like we have a busy house with people all over the place making him nervous. It's usually just him and I during meal time..... him on the mat and me at my laptop waiting for him to finish. If this doesn't work, I can try the crate. 

How long do I need to be doing something to really see a change? Months right?


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> How long do I need to be doing something to really see a change? Months right?


No, I don't think it will take months to see a difference. It will take months before you don't need to manage or train or worry about it much, but it's a very fixable problem and he should relax quite a bit after the first couple of days.


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Ya, I suppose we can remove all the bedding from the crate, and feed him on a towel in there....... never thought about that. It's just upstairs, so seems like a strange place to bring raw meat, that's all. But worth a try!
> 
> Would he learn to start guarding his crate if he gets his meals there? The last thing I want is for him to develop even worse behaviours while trying to correct the first issues!!
> 
> What could be some reasons he doesn't trust us? I mean, we've only had him since Dec 15th, so only a month and a half....... we're thinking that maybe the Shepard he used to live with in his old house used to steal his food? The girl we got him from was young and didn't do any training with him, so it's likely that she just put out two bowls of food and the older dog may have helped himself to Oscar's bowl? Oscar's ribs were showing when we got him, so certainly not a healthy, well fed and cared for dog.


Yeah I keep forgetting some people live in houses LOL sorry about that! I live in an apartment and while the crate is in my room, it makes sense for me to feed my dog in there because it's the first thing I do in the AM so usually I laze about on the bed while he eats.

I don't know if he will start guarding his crate, but if you are worried about that then maybe just keep switching it up to keep him guessing.

As it states in Patricia McConnell's post, we don't know why some dogs guard and some dogs don't. Maybe your pup had shown signs of RG since he was a baby and was never addressed it, or maybe he was punished when he showed first signs making it worse, etc. Cesar Milan-esque techniques probably didn't help much in establishing trust with your dog... and like you said, you guys have only had him for 1.5 months! Don't expect him to trust you 100%  Meeko still will not "give up" food with strangers as easily. He is very distrustful of new people. I'm sure with time, patience, and practice, he will come around.

As for your question on how long it'll take before you see improvements... usually I feel like improvements will happen gradually over time. I don't know how long it'll take for your dog to allow you to take bones away, but keep at it and be patient.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

We haven't really actually tried the Cesar Milan techniques.....I was just watching some of his shows because people told me to. 

The things I HAVE tried:

- Putting on his training collar/leash, putting his food bowl down, and making him walk around the house first before going to the food. 
- Making him sit/stay when placing the food in front of him, and removing it if he goes for it. Only giving him the go ahead to eat it once he relaxes and looks away from the food.
- Feeding him out of my hand
- Feeding him out of the bowl while I'm still holding the bowl
- Leashing him with his training collar to his mat as he eats

I guess the reason I'm scared is that I am 7 months pregnant, and this behaviour has just started in the past 2 weeks. He's growing like a weed, so it scares me that soon he'll be HUGE, and I'm going to have a newborn baby in the house. Obviously, I'm not going to let the baby crawl around and grab his raw meat...... I'm just afraid that this might carry over into toy guarding, and he may attack her for taking his toy (or one of her toys even)!!


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> We haven't really actually tried the Cesar Milan techniques.....I was just watching some of his shows because people told me to.
> 
> The things I HAVE tried:
> 
> ...


Others can offer more perspective, but the first two items you mentioned are likely to increase guarding behavior because it seems (from his perspective) that there is reason to worry the food / resource is scarce and worth guarding.

What do mean by training collar? If it's a choke chain, prong, or e-collar, that, too, can increase aggressive behaviors.

Read McConnell's blog post that's been linked a few times, get Donaldson's _Mine!_, and contact a force-free trainer for in-person help. The trainer should also be able to offer assistance with creating a safe environment for you, your baby, and your dog.


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Management will be key here. Try to work on the RG as much as possible in preparation for your baby.

-Do what others have suggested in regards to feeding to work on the RG.
-Don't leave his toys or other high-value items just lying around.
-And always fully supervise your baby's and your dog's interactions.

I feed raw as well, and my girls eat in their crates. I take all their bedding out and then sanitize their crate with vinegar and water when they are done eating. They also get lots of treats. Even my dog with IBD can handle that.

Try preparing your dog now for your baby's arrival as well, not just with the RG, but, for example, if his crate will be moved to make room for the baby, might as well move it now. This way, there won't be a ton of changes happening all at once. Start teaching him the behaviours you will want to see when the baby has arrived now (eg. Not jumping up, etc.)

Edit: And no, I don't think any of this is happening because he isn't neutered.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

In addition to what everyone else has said, your dog is at a really typical age for a fear period. Managing him calmly during this time, providing stability, and showing him that there's no reason for anxiety, will have payoffs as he matures. Easier said than done, but try not to let his anxiety provoke anxiety in you. 

Sometimes bad behaviors when a puppy can be warning signs of adult temperamental problems, but a lot of the time - I'd venture to say most of the time - they're phases, and will pass with time and clear expectations from you, so don't catastrophize, if you follow me.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Just seems like there are soooo many different conflicting methods on how to train dogs. One person says to exert dominance over them and show them you are boss by leashing them with a choke collar and making them walk around involuntarily enough times that they learn that they are not in control. Then others say this is bad and can lead to aggression, and to in fact just praise and shower your dog with treats and he'll learn to be happy and comfortable. Ugh.  I feel like I'm screwing this poor dog up.


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I used to think Ceasar Milan was awesome (back before I knew better). Looking back, I hate that I used his methods with Marley. I screwed her up for a long while. She resource guarded as well and punishment methods only made it worse, much worse. It took a long time to fix what I unintentionally created. Makes me sad just thinking about it.

Look up Sophia Yin, Patricia Mcconnell, and Ian Dunbar. Read "Mine", as others have suggested.

Marley is a much happier dog because of them. In fact, we all are much happier.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Just seems like there are soooo many different conflicting methods on how to train dogs. One person says to exert dominance over them and show them you are boss by leashing them with a choke collar and making them walk around involuntarily enough times that they learn that they are not in control. Then others say this is bad and can lead to aggression, and to in fact just praise and shower your dog with treats and he'll learn to be happy and comfortable. Ugh.  I feel like I'm screwing this poor dog up.


The likelihood to "screw up your dog" will increase dramatically if you choose to use dominance or punishment-based methods. Your dog isn't your adversary, so why train him like one?

On the other hand, you and your husband have already witnessed the power of positive training when your dog continued to scratch at the door. That drive for a reward is a blessing, believe me, it merely needs to be channeled and applied properly. 


Someone mentioned finding a talented, certified, force-free trainer, and I concur. THAT trainer should be your guru.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> The likelihood to "screw up your dog" will increase dramatically if you choose to use dominance or punishment-based methods. Your dog isn't your adversary, so why train him like one?
> 
> On the other hand, you and your husband have already witnessed the power of positive training when your dog continued to scratch at the door. That drive for a reward is a blessing, believe me, it merely needs to be channeled and applied properly.
> 
> ...


I agree. I also like the X pen idea (try to get one with a door, for easier access), feed him in there, then when he is done (because I dont think even freeze dried liver treats are going to be better than raw LOL) walk to the fence of the x pen and toss him a few treats, then back away, but leave the bowl alone. Wait a few minutes, then rinse/repeat. You could also keep feeding him out of your hand or holding the bowl while he eats, if you feel more comfortable doing that, then when he is done and you are taking the bowl away, be sure to give him a yummy treat and praise, make taking the bowl away a GOOD thing. 

It's likely this is just fear related from the fear stage he sounds like he is going through and it will pass. But I agree, dominance and intimidation techniques will only make things worse, so dont do them.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Just seems like there are soooo many different conflicting methods on how to train dogs. One person says to exert dominance over them and show them you are boss by leashing them with a choke collar and making them walk around involuntarily enough times that they learn that they are not in control. Then others say this is bad and can lead to aggression, and to in fact just praise and shower your dog with treats and he'll learn to be happy and comfortable. Ugh.  I feel like I'm screwing this poor dog up.


Let's say there are 3 teachers in a school. 

One of them forces the students to sit perfectly still all the time, uses a switch when they are boisterous as kids will be, yells at seemingly random moments, and punishes the kids when they fail at lessons that they were never taught how to do. The kids _may_ behave out of fear, but they don't trust the teacher and they aren't learning how to work with the teacher or how to interact properly with each other. A very frustrated or angry student may lash out dangerous or it may build for a time before the anger boils over and someone gets hurt. That's sort of like the dominance method.

One of the teachers is nice but doesn't really give any guidance. She hands out candy but doesn't expect the kids to have done their lessons first to get a prize. There aren't any rules in the classroom so there is confusion on the part of both students and teacher and no one is really learning much there either. The students like her but no one is getting anything out of being in class. That is sort of like just giving treats without actually training (and its also a bit like what people who dismiss positive reinforcement training think it is like because they don't understand it).

But the third teacher provides both structure and rewards. She sets out a clearly understandable lesson plan, she explains things as many times as needed until the students understand, she rewards their good performance and guides them back on the path when they get rowdy. She doesn't expect the kids to know something they haven't been taught well. The kids know they are going to have to pay attention and earn their rewards but they also know they won't be physically punished randomly but maybe "punished" with a time-out to calm down before starting their lesson again. The students have respect for the teacher because they see that the teacher cares about their well being but also because the teacher gives candy for good grades  
That's the type of training explained by the likes of Patricia McConnell, Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson and Sophia Yin and basically what we are describing when we say "positive reinforcement"

Which class would you want your kid to be in? 

I'm not anthropomorphizing dogs, but rather looking at how both humans and mammals learn and how stress and fear relates to interactions.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

None of the experts -- behaviorists who have spent years studying and working with hundreds of dogs -- agree with Cesar Millan's techniques. That should tell you enough right there. If it doesn't, I have several great links I could give you.

I agree with everyone else -- resource guarding can be not only managed, but fixed. You're actually lucky in that aspect. Like others have said, even though it looks like aggression, it's a fear-based issue. Your dog is literally afraid that his food is going to be taken away, and he reacts the only way he knows how, with a threat display. When people actually do take his food away, or put a leash on him and walk him around the house while his food sits unprotected, it reinforces that fear.

It's your job to teach him that his food is safe and that good things come from you. Do the trading games as described, reward him with treats, hand-feed him when you can, only give him the high-value stuff in a secure area like a crate (hell, take all of the bedding out and then wipe it down with an antibacterial cleaner after he eats). His attitude about this food can be changed, I assure you. It doesn't even take that much extra effort on your part, just remembering to trade up when you see an opportunity and clean out his crate after he eats.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

When it comes to those dominance-based punishment "trainers", I just picture being in a foreign country where I don't know the language. A native speaker comes up and asks me something that I just don't understand. When I stare blankly at him, he screams in my face and starts to hit and choke me. How on earth is that going to teach me what he means?

Anyway, the others have suggested some great trainers. I'm particularly a fan of Patricia McConnell - who has a PhD and a lot of science to bak up her methods. Just finished reading For the Love of a Dog and it was wonderful. I'm also taking one of Karen Pryor's clicker courses which I've found to be very rewarding. I know it's tough to wade through what seems like countless different methods for training dogs. But doesn't working WITH your dog sound a whole lot better than working AGAINST your dog?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Effisia said:


> When it comes to those dominance-based punishment "trainers", I just picture being in a foreign country where I don't know the language. A native speaker comes up and asks me something that I just don't understand. When I stare blankly at him, he screams in my face and starts to hit and choke me. How on earth is that going to teach me what he means?
> 
> Anyway, the others have suggested some great trainers. I'm particularly a fan of Patricia McConnell - who has a PhD and a lot of science to bak up her methods. Just finished reading For the Love of a Dog and it was wonderful. I'm also taking one of Karen Pryor's clicker courses which I've found to be very rewarding. I know it's tough to wade through what seems like countless different methods for training dogs. But doesn't working WITH your dog sound a whole lot better than working AGAINST your dog?


Thats a brilliant parallel, Effisia! I have never thought of the human/dog relation like that but you know, it kind of is! Look at it as your dog is a foreign exchange student of sorts who doesnt know a lick of english, would you treat a human child that way if they didnt understand you when you tried to tell them something? Or if they did something they werent supposed to simply because they arent used to the customs in this country? Well, your dog is that student. He is not doing things just to piss you off or to "be dominant" any more than a child of like age would. he is a BABY and he is insecure and scared and is afraid someone is going to take something away from him. Maybe they did that at his other house? who knows? YOUR job is to make him FEEL secure. I think feeding him (if you feel comfortable doing it) out of your hand or holding the bowl is a great thing to do. Also, for now I wouldnt give him any bones or anything when he is in a high traffic area. I would do the X pen thing and let him have them in there, a place he knows is his own space. if you get the kind with a door on it, you can even keep the door open, so if he feels overwhelmed, he can go there for some quiet time.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Excellent points everyone, thank you. I'm feeling much better about this now. And you are totally right. Dogs don't speak english, or know what the hell it is that we expect from them. So training with treats is a language that they will understand, and that we can pair with a behaviour and mark, so that there are a few key words that we can use to communicate to them what it is that we expect. So that makes perfect sense.

I am so glad that the aggressive/dominance methods aren't something that I'm going to have to do. That just isn't me, and I couldn't believe that that's the way that everyone handles their dogs in order to train them....... it just seemed way to dangerous! 

So I'll try the positive reinforcement method with his meals. I know it already works when he steals items he shouldn't. Just this morning he had something stolen from the garbage and I managed to stay calm and upbeat and distract him with one of his toys to get him to drop the original item, no fuss whatsoever...... 

Do you think leashing him by the food bowl is ok? I just want to prevent him from taking a meat bone and running with it to other parts of the house........ or is crate feeding him the best method? He doesn't particularly love being locked in his crate either, so I don't want to induce even more fear.... thinking he's being punished. Nor do I want him to get protective over the crate, as it's in a common area in our home.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

My experience is that feeding in the crate makes the dog love the crate. But if you're worried about it, something like a laundry room or bathroom might be a good alternative, someplace quiet and easy to close off/clean up.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Excellent points everyone, thank you. I'm feeling much better about this now. And you are totally right. Dogs don't speak english, or know what the hell it is that we expect from them. So training with treats is a language that they will understand, and that we can pair with a behaviour and mark, so that there are a few key words that we can use to communicate to them what it is that we expect. So that makes perfect sense.
> 
> I am so glad that the aggressive/dominance methods aren't something that I'm going to have to do. That just isn't me, and I couldn't believe that that's the way that everyone handles their dogs in order to train them....... it just seemed way to dangerous!
> 
> ...


I dont see why not, I have one here that I leash while its feeding time (I leave the room after I feed them) because she is an idiot (sorry but she is LOL) and will try to take the other dogs bowls, even if they are done, so she is leashed to my antique desk, which is really heavy and she cant move it, as long as the furniture is sturdy I dont see why you couldnt. though his own space, like an x pen would be more ideal, though. But you could leash him until you can get one.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

OK just got through meal time.

I did the usual.... made him sit on his mat and fastened his leash to the door to prevent him from running away with the meat. But first, I made him sit and gave him a cheese cube, just so he knew that it was a delicious treat.

Then I put all the chewy meat bits, like the tripe, organs and fleshy stuff in the bowl, leaving a few behind for later. 

I made him sit/stay on his mat while I lowered the bowl to him, and stayed there holding the bowl as he ate. During this, I hand-fed him a few cheese cubes with my other hand..... so he was more then delighted to receive those.

Then for the larger bone, I took him outside, made him sit/stay, and just left the bowl with the bone in it and went back inside the house. After 5 mins, I came back out with a piece of organ and added it to his bowl. No problem. He dropped the bone and ran to get the new food.

I repeated this again, but this time hand-fed him the organ.

Then I stood at the door with a cheese cube in my hand, and he dropped the bone and ran to me to get the cheese snack.

The final try, I stayed inside the house, and he dropped the bone and ran inside the house to sit for the cheese cube. I closed the door behind him and made him sit/stay before giving him the cheese. At which point he scratched at the door to obviously return to his bone. I'm sure that if I'd wanted to I could have just removed his leash and walked away.......(if in the future we need to get him away from the bone or whatever else it is he's guarding).... so I'd say that's a pretty good success for now. I just let him back out to his bone, to show him that even if he runs into the house, his bone will still be safe and available to him.

Pretty good start, right?


----------



## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Sounds like you're off to a great start. Congrats. And I'm sorry (for both you and your pup) that you were given such terrible advice from someone you thought you could trust. Most of the people on here are very knowledgable about food, training, etc. There's even some professionals lurking 
I feel no need to restate what most everyone here already has said, but they are correct. Aim for a best friend relationship, or even a student/teacher or parent/child relationship over master/slave. You will both be better off and happier for it. I think you'll see a lot of parallels tying into dog training when you begin to raise your child. They all learn the same. I hope you are able to manage both the baby and the dog.
And i'm not sure if anyone else more knowledgable can weigh in on this, but personally I feel like 1 meal a day is not often enough for a young puppy to eat. Personally i'd stick to 2 meals a day until he's at least 10 months old. But I even feed my adult dog twice daily.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Two is better for big dogs, against bloat, too.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yep, I agree, it sounds like you are off to a great start and he will have confidence in no time!!! Just keep at it! Remember, if he shows "aggression" remember to reassure him, not scold him.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

So then if I do this method of rewarding him and making my presence known at the food bowl, will he eventually just learn not to growl and attack if I get close to him when he has something of value? I know that dogs aren't great at generalizing, so is this a very specific situation that I need to generalize across multiple types of scenarios? 

Obviously the main reason that I want to do this is to insure everyone's safety....... so in the situation of him growling at my dad who was just trying to step over him to go upstairs while he had a bone, will he generalize the "treats at the food bowl" to new situations that may come up that we didn't even think of? Or do we need to have him chewing bones, and walk by and give him treats a bunch of times with different people to make sure that situation is covered? Just carry a bag of treats in our pockets at all times, to whip out anytime he feels nervous? What about situations we may not think to train beforehand? Or will his general comfort level just increase, and therefore hopefully get rid of the aggression in all areas?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> So then if I do this method of rewarding him and making my presence known at the food bowl, will he eventually just learn not to growl and attack if I get close to him when he has something of value? I know that dogs aren't great at generalizing, so is this a very specific situation that I need to generalize across multiple types of scenarios?
> 
> Obviously the main reason that I want to do this is to insure everyone's safety....... so in the situation of him growling at my dad who was just trying to step over him to go upstairs while he had a bone, will he generalize the "treats at the food bowl" to new situations that may come up that we didn't even think of? Or do we need to have him chewing bones, and walk by and give him treats a bunch of times with different people to make sure that situation is covered? Just carry a bag of treats in our pockets at all times, to whip out anytime he feels nervous? What about situations we may not think to train beforehand? Or will his general comfort level just increase, and therefore hopefully get rid of the aggression in all areas?


No, dogs dont generalize. You will have to train this behavior on everything he has, unfortunately LOL.


----------



## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

From the sounds of things, unless there is a legitimate medical reason for your dog to be on a raw diet, wouldn't it just be easier to put him on kibble and be done with it? hence the aggression/RG problem, for the most part, solved?

Sometimes we have to make relatively minor compromises, for the greater good and well-being of our HUMAN family.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Probably is easier.... raw just seemed to have a lot of added health benefits. Shinny coat, cleaner teeth, less infections, better stools, extended lifespan...... we obviously didn't know about the aggression when we started the raw. And raw itself isn't suppose to create aggression....


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> And raw itself isn't suppose to create aggression....


No, but it is of higher value than kibble. Not to say you shouldn't feed raw (I feed raw as well), but maybe the RG would lessen with kibble.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Or you could do kibble and raw (I know some people say not to, but some dogs handle it just fine), and not give any of the really high-value bones unless he's safely in a crate or a closed room?

Practice trading games and hand-feeding no matter what, of course. I started preventative measures with my pup when I got him even though he showed no signs of RGing, because I wanted him to grow up knowing that good things came from me. I'd hand-feed him, he'd eat kibble out of treat balls, I'd toss a few extra kibbles or little bits of meat to him while he ate, I'd trade him a piece of chicken for a boring old milk bone. Now he's five, and even if he grabs a fried chicken bone off the street while on a walk, I can tell him to drop it or take it out of his mouth and he's fine. If he's eating and I approach his bowl, he stops eating and waits because he expects me to throw something good in there! Sometimes I still do, just to reinforce it.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Well, we've only started feeding raw at Christmas time, so I'm hoping that this is something that we can fix early to prevent it from being a life-long issue. Obviously if it doesn't get any better, we can always switch back to kibble. I'm certainly not opposed to doing what is best to keep my family safe. I'm just hoping that he's at a trainable age that we can all live happily together, and he can get the diet that he deserves.


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> So then if I do this method of rewarding him and making my presence known at the food bowl, will he eventually just learn not to growl and attack if I get close to him when he has something of value? I know that dogs aren't great at generalizing, so is this a very specific situation that I need to generalize across multiple types of scenarios?
> 
> Obviously the main reason that I want to do this is to insure everyone's safety....... so in the situation of him growling at my dad who was just trying to step over him to go upstairs while he had a bone, will he generalize the "treats at the food bowl" to new situations that may come up that we didn't even think of? Or do we need to have him chewing bones, and walk by and give him treats a bunch of times with different people to make sure that situation is covered? Just carry a bag of treats in our pockets at all times, to whip out anytime he feels nervous? What about situations we may not think to train beforehand? Or will his general comfort level just increase, and therefore hopefully get rid of the aggression in all areas?


With dropping treats near the food bowl, the goal is to help him realize that good things happen when you approach his food. I would do the same process right now with other high-value items (such as bones) too. For now, I think it would be good if you just worked with him. Put him out of everyone else's way when he has food or a bone, etc - for his comfort and yours. Once you gain some ground with him and his comfort level has increased with you, let your dad begin working with him, etc. 

I tend to think that dogs can generalize with certain things. For example, if a dog had an awful experience with a man, that can lead to the dog generalizing that all men are not to be trusted. Or if his previous home made him think that his previous owner couldn't be trusted around his food, then he can generalize that to all people. With training new tricks and behaviours, though, they do need help to generalize the behaviour.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Even a dog that doesn't normally RG might get snippy if someone tries to step OVER him when he has a bone. Its a good idea to teach a dog a command to move and ask the dog to move out of the way, in part because aside from potential RG, a large dog that leaps up when someone is halfway through stepping over him is a danger. I say "Scootch" to ask a dog to move out of the path. Even though my male dog is quite content to be a lump and let people step over him if he's comfortable, we visit my good friends frequently who have an 18 month old daughter so if I was carrying the baby around, I always asked him to move. Now the kid is running around so he's learnt to avoid doorways where the small steamrolller might be coming through 

Personally, and not really connected to the resource guarding issue but more to a practicality issue, I'd get the dog settled on a good kibble now before you have a child to deal with so that it is simpler to feed, simpler to clean up, can be used in feeding toys to occupy the dog for awhile, and if he has any tummy troubles while you find a kibble that suits him, he would hopefully be over it by the time you have the kid. I'd fed a dozen+ kinds of kibble, partial raw and whole raw and really, for _many/most_ dogs, a good quality kibble with the occasional raw bone for entertainment and teeth cleaning is quite a good and healthy diet. 

You still want to play trading games and teach him to willingly give up items since kids toys look a lot like dog toys and kids drop a lot of food that dogs shouldn't be eating etc but you'd have more variety of training opportunities using kibble (you can carry his kibble around in a plastic bag in your pocket and trade it for items throughout the day for example)


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shell said:


> Even a dog that doesn't normally RG might get snippy if someone tries to step OVER him when he has a bone. Its a good idea to teach a dog a command to move and ask the dog to move out of the way, in part because aside from potential RG, a large dog that leaps up when someone is halfway through stepping over him is a danger. I say "Scootch" to ask a dog to move out of the path. Even though my male dog is quite content to be a lump and let people step over him if he's comfortable, we visit my good friends frequently who have an 18 month old daughter so if I was carrying the baby around, I always asked him to move. Now the kid is running around so he's learnt to avoid doorways where the small steamrolller might be coming through
> 
> Personally, and not really connected to the resource guarding issue but more to a practicality issue, I'd get the dog settled on a good kibble now before you have a child to deal with so that it is simpler to feed, simpler to clean up, can be used in feeding toys to occupy the dog for awhile, and if he has any tummy troubles while you find a kibble that suits him, he would hopefully be over it by the time you have the kid. I'd fed a dozen+ kinds of kibble, partial raw and whole raw and really, for _many/most_ dogs, a good quality kibble with the occasional raw bone for entertainment and teeth cleaning is quite a good and healthy diet.
> 
> You still want to play trading games and teach him to willingly give up items since kids toys look a lot like dog toys and kids drop a lot of food that dogs shouldn't be eating etc but you'd have more variety of training opportunities using kibble (you can carry his kibble around in a plastic bag in your pocket and trade it for items throughout the day for example)


thats true, mine are wonderful with me and the family when it comes to taking things away ... anything. But I imagine if a guest tried to take something away ... I dont know what they would do LOL


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

You could also look into feeding Ziwipeak as an alternative. It's $$$ but it might be just what you're looking for. You could also use it for training treats.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

A few companies also make freeze dried raw treats that are raw, and wouldnt interfere with his diet, if thats what you are worried about. I myself feed grain free training treats, but I feed kibble.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Probably is easier.... raw just seemed to have a lot of added health benefits. Shinny coat, cleaner teeth, less infections, better stools, extended lifespan...... we obviously didn't know about the aggression when we started the raw. And raw itself isn't suppose to create aggression....


I'll give you teeth, and sometimes coat and stools, depending on what you're feeding raw versus non-raw. But there rest of it...eh.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

parus said:


> I'll give you teeth, and sometimes coat and stools, depending on what you're feeding raw versus non-raw. But there rest of it...eh.


It's hard to say because we started him on the raw right after we got him, but his teeth look clean, his ears look much cleaner then when we got him, his coat is gorgeous and more shinny, he doesn't shed (I know, it's winter, but my friends have dogs that still shed all over), his skin problems/flakes and scratching have gone away, his stools turn to dust if you leave them for a week outside instead of the gooey mess they used to be, it takes him longer to eat it, so he gets a good chewing work-out during meals so that he's not having to chew the rest of our stuff all the time....... I obviously can't speak for all types of kibble, but a lot of it seems like processed stuff... you just don't know what goes into it. The fact that it can sit in the cupboard unrefrigerated means it can't possibly be good...... 

So most of the things we've seen so far with the raw are super beneficial......


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> It's hard to say because we started him on the raw right after we got him, but his teeth look clean, his ears look much cleaner then when we got him, his coat is gorgeous and more shinny, he doesn't shed (I know, it's winter, but my friends have dogs that still shed all over), his skin problems/flakes and scratching have gone away, his stools turn to dust if you leave them for a week outside instead of the gooey mess they used to be, it takes him longer to eat it, so he gets a good chewing work-out during meals so that he's not having to chew the rest of our stuff all the time....... I obviously can't speak for all types of kibble, but a lot of it seems like processed stuff... you just don't know what goes into it. The fact that it can sit in the cupboard unrefrigerated means it can't possibly be good......
> 
> So most of the things we've seen so far with the raw are super beneficial......


What food was he on before? When I got foster dogs in that had been eating Dog Chow or such and switched them to a kibble like Fromm Classic or Earthborn grain-free for example, their coats got shiny, their skin got better, etc. 

I'm not trying to dissuade you from raw if you are happy with raw, just noting that there can be a very noticeable difference in all the things you mentioned seeing improve in your dog that also happens going to a "better" kibble (as in, a kibble that suits the dog better particularly and generally one with higher meat protein and fat content). I like to feed raw 1 or 2x per week mainly for the variety to interest the dogs and I think that some fresh foods is good for their digestion (like the green tripe) but I've not seen any difference feeding all raw for a couple months as compared to their current 30/25 high calories kibble and occasional raw.

I'm not worried about the fact that it can sit in the cupboard unrefrigerated, since my potatos, onions, cereal, crackers, garlic, oatmeal etc are all in the cupboard too aside from the canned meat and fish and vegetables which are all cooked and shelf-stabilized. 

Another option that you might like if you want something other than kibble but find that raw is a bit too much of a hassle for cleaning up, preparing etc is a dehydrated food like The Honest Kitchen or Grandma Lucy's; just add warm water and feed.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

This is him. Not sure if you can tell from pics, but his coat is super shinny....... a lot more so then other labs I've seen who have more of a dull, flat coat.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Shell said:


> What food was he on before? When I got foster dogs in that had been eating Dog Chow or such and switched them to a kibble like Fromm Classic or Earthborn grain-free for example, their coats got shiny, their skin got better, etc.
> 
> I'm not trying to dissuade you from raw if you are happy with raw, just noting that there can be a very noticeable difference in all the things you mentioned seeing improve in your dog that also happens going to a "better" kibble (as in, a kibble that suits the dog better particularly and generally one with higher meat protein and fat content). I like to feed raw 1 or 2x per week mainly for the variety to interest the dogs and I think that some fresh foods is good for their digestion (like the green tripe) but I've not seen any difference feeding all raw for a couple months as compared to their current 30/25 high calories kibble and occasional raw.
> 
> ...


When we got him, he was on a grain-free kibble.....I checked for it at the pet store and it was certainly one of the most expensive ones they had...... so it wasn't a cheap brand by any means. 

So far we're happy with raw. I'm not sure that it's the raw diet that is causing these behaviours... probably just allowing us to notice them more often because he has high value items on a daily basis. Otherwise they might only present themselves in rare situations, but at least now we'll know to be prepared for it in the future and be careful around him if he does steal something he shouldn't have.

Yes, your veggies and stuff can sit in the cupboard, but are dogs suppose to eat veggies? I certainly can't keep my meat at room temperature for a month.......


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> When we got him, he was on a grain-free kibble.....I checked for it at the pet store and it was certainly one of the most expensive ones they had...... so it wasn't a cheap brand by any means.
> 
> So far we're happy with raw. I'm not sure that it's the raw diet that is causing these behaviours... probably just allowing us to notice them more often because he has high value items on a daily basis. Otherwise they might only present themselves in rare situations, but at least now we'll know to be prepared for it in the future and be careful around him if he does steal something he shouldn't have.
> 
> Yes, your veggies and stuff can sit in the cupboard, but are dogs suppose to eat veggies? I certainly can't keep my meat at room temperature for a month.......


Like I said, if you are happy with raw, then stick with raw. I'm just saying that if you realize, especially with a newborn, that kibble becomes more practical that there are many dogs doing just as well on kibble as on raw. I have literally had people stop their cars to comment on my dog's shiny coat. I don't want you to feel like you are short-changing your dog if you need to make a switch.

Expensive doesn't always mean good for a particular dog, not every dog does well on grain-free just as not every dog does well on grain-inclusive. Some of the grain-frees are so heavy on the peas and pea proteins that it can make for a gassy dog, some dogs are itchy on potatoes etc. 

I don't think it is raw _causing_ the guarding aside from raw simply being high-value to him just like a human might be more willing to share some of their say, chips and salsa than they would be to share some of their filet mignon.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Yes, exactly. I was discussing it with my friend at work, and she said that basically there was this girl that used to always ask for a piece of her chocolate bar. So after a few times of having to give her a piece of it (A kit-kat has 4 sticks, so if you have to give someone a stick, it's essentially 1/4th of your snack) she stopped eating her high value snacks in front of this girl. Carrot sticks maybe not such a big deal, but there's no way in hell you're gonna bust out your kit kat in front of someone who you know is going to ask for some.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Wonderful. Just got word from my dad that Oscar threw up all over my couch today. Guess he wasn't used to eating the cheese cubes I gave him last night.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> Excellent points everyone, thank you. I'm feeling much better about this now. And you are totally right. Dogs don't speak english, or know what the hell it is that we expect from them. So training with treats is a language that they will understand, and that we can pair with a behaviour and mark, so that there are a few key words that we can use to communicate to them what it is that we expect. So that makes perfect sense.
> 
> I am so glad that the aggressive/dominance methods aren't something that I'm going to have to do. That just isn't me, and I couldn't believe that that's the way that everyone handles their dogs in order to train them....... it just seemed way to dangerous!
> 
> ...


Would just like to add (and I'm only on page 2 of this thread so someone might have rehashed this)

Our behavorist (I work at a shelter) puts it very simply, like this:

If positive reinforcement will work, why wouldnt I try that first? Why are people so apt to jump right to positive punishment when that is the LAST of the four quadrants that should be used?

There's a good visual here that I'll try to find. But basically: start training with the method that is the LEAST likely to produce fallout. You may not have to move beyond that.

(also, we use a widely accepted punishment and adverse-free protocol at work for resource guarders, and I have NEVER known it not to work. I need to find it to send you. These are dogs that have tested at a 5- will bite the fake hand when we do temp evaluations, and in my two years there we have not had a dog yet that we have not been able to get down to a 2 or 3. I honestly don't think there have been any before my tenure, either. I shall find it for you!)


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

Rescued said:


> Would just like to add (and I'm only on page 2 of this thread so someone might have rehashed this)
> 
> Our behavorist (I work at a shelter) puts it very simply, like this:
> 
> ...


I think because people who are new to dog ownership don't know any better. You yell at the dog because you are frustrated..... you expect them to behave a certain way and can't understand why they aren't listening, or why they don't understand.

I asked on facebook for help, and friends referred me to Casear Milan and said that he was a lifesaver. So if that's the only way you know, then you don't even realize there are other ways. I'm glad I came here, because everywhere else I was seeing seemed to point to the "show your dog who's boss" method.... and I just don't feel comfortable or safe with that.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> I think because people who are new to dog ownership don't know any better. You yell at the dog because you are frustrated..... you expect them to behave a certain way and can't understand why they aren't listening, or why they don't understand.
> 
> I asked on facebook for help, and friends referred me to Casear Milan and said that he was a lifesaver. So if that's the only way you know, then you don't even realize there are other ways. I'm glad I came here, because everywhere else I was seeing seemed to point to the "show your dog who's boss" method.... and I just don't feel comfortable or safe with that.


Its driving me crazy that I can't find the picture I'm looking for but this is a good stand in until I find it. Basically +R is the least likely to have fallout (and honestly the most fun and easy to work with unless you're really weird and enjoy making other people/animals feel bad, haha) and +P is the most likely. The other two fall in the middle.

And this goes back to early psychology (skinner I think?), been around a lot longer than cesar milan 

(cant get the stupid image to show up in the post but click on link below)

has.http://s300.photobucket.com/user/ripplecloud/media/blog/animals/5383389900_5175a0643c_b.jpg.html


----------



## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

Remember, too much of a good thing is still too much (cheese).  One thing I would say .. I wouldn't hold onto his bowl while he eats. Let him eat in peace and periodically go there and drop the special treats in. And dogs can be resource guarders of kibble, just like they can be of raw. I could tell mine has the propensity for it, but nipped it before it even surfaced. Now, at 21 months old and 95 lbs, he doesn't care at all what I do with his food, because he knows I won't take it away. He does still make sure the cat can't lick it, though.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Shell said:


> Like I said, if you are happy with raw, then stick with raw. I'm just saying that if you realize, especially with a newborn, that kibble becomes more practical that there are many dogs doing just as well on kibble as on raw. I have literally had people stop their cars to comment on my dog's shiny coat. I don't want you to feel like you are short-changing your dog if you need to make a switch.
> 
> Expensive doesn't always mean good for a particular dog, not every dog does well on grain-free just as not every dog does well on grain-inclusive. Some of the grain-frees are so heavy on the peas and pea proteins that it can make for a gassy dog, some dogs are itchy on potatoes etc.


Yup, this is what I was trying to say as well. Feeding comes down to a combination of practicality and what works for the individual dog. Anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth, but: my 13-year-old medium-large dog has been on mid-range kibble (decent kibbles, but not the most expensive) her entire life. Her teeth are ridiculously white and healthy - she's never had a dental - and her skin and coat are healthy, without signs of her age other than greying. She's never been ill, and her only joint issue is a little stiffness when she first gets up when the weather is bad - very mild age-related arthritis. She gets gassy on grain-free kibble, so she gets a grain-inclusive formulation. I can't really imagine better outcomes - she's about as hale as any dog can be, let alone one her age. (She was a juvenile spay, too, which is the other big IF YOU LOVE YOUR DOG YOU WON'T DO IT! thing currently en vogue.)

If raw works for you and your dog does well on it, that's great  But it's also possible to do right by a dog by other means, and a lot of the health benefits touted by proponents of certain feeding plans, supplements, etc. get pretty grandiose. For example, the claim of increased longevity. If raw helps maintain the particular dog's teeth and healthy weight, then yes, it can lead to a longer life. But if the dog would also have good teeth and weight on a different diet, does raw increase longevity compared to that? I really doubt it. Longevity is largely genetic, in the absence of injury, infection, or environmental disease, as is a dog's ability to shrug off environmental factors that might cause problems in another dog. 

We like to think we have more control than we do, I think.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> This is him. Not sure if you can tell from pics, but his coat is super shinny....... a lot more so then other labs I've seen who have more of a dull, flat coat.


He's beautiful.

Full-blooded Labrador Retrievers with good double coats fully grown in are often more matte even when the coat is very healthy, because of the hair texture.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

As far as the food goes, I would just put him in a crate, or behind a closed door ... or both and let him eat in peace and would work with the resource guarding (RG) which is the guarding of toys, bones, and other high value items (it can even be you!). When it is time to pick up his empty bowl (I usually give mine about 20 min to eat) use the "trade up" method and offer a yummy, high value treat (whatever his favorite is). You can also use this same method for getting toys and other things he shouldnt have away from him.

Remember your dog's life is the equivalent of you being dropped in a foreign country and not knowing a lick of the native language. Imagine a native speaker walking up to you and say, trying to take that expensive camera you have brought with you to take pictures with, while explaining in a language you dont understand why he is doing it. Of course you fight him, you paid hundreds of dollars for that camera! He tries to wrench it away from you, of course you would fight him! That is what your dog is doing when he snaps at someone who thinks he is going to take his "camera" away from him. 

Imagine a different scenario: same guy comes up to you and speaks in the native tongue, and points to the camera. only this time he pulls a fat wad of cash out and offers this for the camera, you cant see how much is there but you can tell it is more than the camera is worth, you might be able to buy a better camera now! So you take it. 

The moral of the story is, if you want your dog to give up his valuable items with out a fight, you are gonna have to pay him for it LOL.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> As far as the food goes, I would just put him in a crate, or behind a closed door ... or both and let him eat in peace and would work with the resource guarding (RG) which is the guarding of toys, bones, and other high value items (it can even be you!). When it is time to pick up his empty bowl (I usually give mine about 20 min to eat) use the "trade up" method and offer a yummy, high value treat (whatever his favorite is). You can also use this same method for getting toys and other things he shouldnt have away from him.
> 
> Remember your dog's life is the equivalent of you being dropped in a foreign country and not knowing a lick of the native language. Imagine a native speaker walking up to you and say, trying to take that expensive camera you have brought with you to take pictures with, while explaining in a language you dont understand why he is doing it. Of course you fight him, you paid hundreds of dollars for that camera! He tries to wrench it away from you, of course you would fight him! That is what your dog is doing when he snaps at someone who thinks he is going to take his "camera" away from him.
> 
> ...


That's all fine and good...... even if I did feed him in a separate room or in a crate or something, and work with him on RG with bones on a separate occasion, there is still the problem with guarding when we aren't expecting it. Twice now, he's smelled meat on our counter/in our sink and has attacked me out of "nowhere"....... when I was just going about my day to day life. In these situations, I wasn't expecting it, so obviously didn't have a treat..... I was merely approaching my sink to do the dishes, or going near the counter to grab a drink from the fridge. Any advice on that type of thing?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Shepador_Oscar said:


> That's all fine and good...... even if I did feed him in a separate room or in a crate or something, and work with him on RG with bones on a separate occasion, there is still the problem with guarding when we aren't expecting it. Twice now, he's smelled meat on our counter/in our sink and has attacked me out of "nowhere"....... when I was just going about my day to day life. In these situations, I wasn't expecting it, so obviously didn't have a treat..... I was merely approaching my sink to do the dishes, or going near the counter to grab a drink from the fridge. Any advice on that type of thing?


I wouldn't allow him in or near the kitchen when meat has been/is being prepared. I don't think it was out of nowhere so much as you didn't realize until you had the benefit of hindsight that it was related to the smell of the meat.


----------



## Shepador_Oscar (Jan 28, 2015)

But sometimes meat needs to thaw somewhere for a few hours..... so we had it thawing up high on the counter and I guess he smelled it. I'm pretty careful now about cleaning up all of the meat-related dishes and things immediately and putting them in the dishwasher, or rinsing them with soap. In hindsight, yes I realize that it wasn't out of nowhere. He'd obviously been aware that it was there, and was guarding it. I just didn't realize he was doing this, and he wasn't even in the room when I approached it. He was all the way upstairs, and bounded down to attack and snarl at me until i backed away. Quite frightening from such a young pup. So I worry that although I can be super careful around food prep, I can't always be around to monitor other people.... and worry for the sake of my family or visitors. 



sassafras said:


> I wouldn't allow him in or near the kitchen when meat has been/is being prepared. I don't think it was out of nowhere so much as you didn't realize until you had the benefit of hindsight that it was related to the smell of the meat.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Aside from the dog issue, frozen meat should be thawing in the fridge preferably or at least in a cold water bath with the water changed regularly while it thaws. Sorry, I just couldn't help but cringe at the idea of the meat thawing at room temperature on the counter for several hours and I am someone who is pretty lax with food safety on the whole. 

I think, like mentioned here and in the other thread, that trying to deal with his guarding issues while still feedjng raw is at best a frustration and delay in training and at worst, a tragedy in the making if he severely bites someone. Using kibble and creating a mental separation between "his food" and "human food" could be part of reducing his chances and inclination to guard every bit meat that passes through the kitchen.


----------



## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I feed raw and I recommend it to others but for your situation I am not sure it is a safe option at this time. When you have got his resource guarding under control thrn you could reconsider it. 

Also meat should never be defrosted on the counter it is a safety hazard. Defrost in the fridge, in a ziploc bag in cold water or in the microwave.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

parus said:


> Yup, this is what I was trying to say as well. Feeding comes down to a combination of practicality and what works for the individual dog. Anecdotal, so take it for what it's worth, but: my 13-year-old medium-large dog has been on mid-range kibble (decent kibbles, but not the most expensive) her entire life. Her teeth are ridiculously white and healthy - she's never had a dental - and her skin and coat are healthy, without signs of her age other than greying. She's never been ill, and her only joint issue is a little stiffness when she first gets up when the weather is bad - very mild age-related arthritis. She gets gassy on grain-free kibble, so she gets a grain-inclusive formulation. I can't really imagine better outcomes - she's about as hale as any dog can be, let alone one her age. (She was a juvenile spay, too, which is the other big IF YOU LOVE YOUR DOG YOU WON'T DO IT! thing currently en vogue.)
> 
> If raw works for you and your dog does well on it, that's great  But it's also possible to do right by a dog by other means, and a lot of the health benefits touted by proponents of certain feeding plans, supplements, etc. get pretty grandiose. For example, the claim of increased longevity. If raw helps maintain the particular dog's teeth and healthy weight, then yes, it can lead to a longer life. But if the dog would also have good teeth and weight on a different diet, does raw increase longevity compared to that? I really doubt it. Longevity is largely genetic, in the absence of injury, infection, or environmental disease, as is a dog's ability to shrug off environmental factors that might cause problems in another dog.
> 
> We like to think we have more control than we do, I think.


Yep one side screams "IF YOU LOVE YOUR DOG, SPAY/NEUTER!!!" While the other says "IF YOU LOVE YOUR DOG *DONT* SPAY/NEUTER!!!" As my dad says, You cant win for losing ... LOL.

My personal opinion? for males, I would prefer to wait to neuter until the growth plates close ... if you are absolutely bent on neutering, me? If the dog doesnt give me a reason ... like losing his stuff over females or something, then I wont neuter at all. For females? If I could, I would wait and see if I could try to make it through at least one heat, but that would greatly depend on my living situation, and all that. If I wasnt 1005 sure that I could keep her from getting pregnant, then I would spay before the first heat.

And I am glad I am not the only one who cringed over defrosting meat on the counter or drain board LOL ... I feed Josefina her own raw "meat balls" with her food, made from fresh ground meat (scraps from the butcher from his cuttings that day) among other things and even I dont defrost her food at room temp! on the night I feed the last one, I take one from the freezer and put it in the fridge. I would defrost your meat starting the night before in the fridge. 

I also second not letting him into the kitchen when food is being prepared or dishes are being cleaned. Buy a baby gate with a door that allows you to walk through it.


----------



## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Raw feeding can have negative outcomes too. Bones piercing through the esophagus, stomach, intestines and the biggest one the calcium-phos levels are off. I have seen dogs get impacted so bad to being fed bones that surgery and removal of the intestines was the only way to save the dog. I have seen some dogs die and some dogs do better being fed a raw diet. If you are going to feed raw make sure you are meeting the nutritional requirements your dog needs for proper growth. So important in a large breed puppy. I would consult an certified animal nutritionist to make sure what I was feeding was right. Raw sometimes can be the right answer and sometimes it can be putting your dog at a risk. 

Your dog is giving you signals. I think what has been given to you for advice about the feeding is spot on. It is a lot safer doing that then trying to pin your dog down like your husband did. You need to be able to read your dog's language. Read up about the signals dogs give out, the unspoken language of dog. One thing I want to say is you will not cure your dog of this but finding a way to be able to live with your dog. One book called 'Decoding your dog' by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists would be a good book for you to read. One thing you will learn is aggression is usually fear based. What they do suggest in this book is to feed the dog in a separate room to avoid the dog from becoming nervous. Work on the resource guarding when the dog is not feeding. Good luck and remember the way you are going about will take longer than to get the results your husband did but it is so much safer for you and the dog alike.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah, dont you love it when you (and I am referring to everyone who took time out of their day to write some REALLY good, informative responses that even I learned something from) take time out of your day to write out some really spot on advice just for the OP to say "Nope! not going to work!" 

It really grinds my gears.

I know I sound cynical ... *#sorrynotsorry*


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

? The OP is changing how they feed the dog.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> ? The OP is changing how they feed the dog.


they are willing to do that one thing, sure. but I was talking about everything else people mentioned about training and how to manage the guarding (even if she changes the dog off raw ... the food aggression might continue) and it seemed they vetoed every idea.

Does anyone think that his behavior might be due to some kind of nutritional or mineral imbalance? I know imbalances like this can cause temperament changes in humans, I was wondering if does were the same way.


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

The OP's other thread gives more info. I think the OP is doing a great job and has really taken some of the advice provided to heart. The OP is changing the food, bought and read "Mine", and has modified training techniques.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

What kills me is the raw food purveyor. Here you have inexperienced owners, soon to be new parents, and a dog who clearly cannot handle having access to raw meaty bones at this point, so the raw food saleswoman says "no! all raw food! no treats! or YOUR DOG WILL DIE!!!!!" instead of, "you know what, for the safety of everyone involved, let's switch back to kibble. We can try raw again when he's matured and you're not so busy." Nope, just gleefully sought to continue her income stream at the expense of a dog, 2 nice people and their new baby.

That is just disgusting.


----------



## pawsaddict (Apr 17, 2013)

I agree. She sounds a little fanatical (and profit-motivated) to me.


----------

