# German Shepherd killed cat- need input.



## 4dogs3cats

Ultimately I am going to make my own decision on what to do, but here is some backround.

We got Toby(our cat) like 2 years ago, and we got Chance(our gsd) as a puppy when we already had Toby for almost a year. They never had an issue. Then after we got Chance, when he was about 3 months old, we added another kitten(Mittens.) And they have always been fine. Chance would actually chase Mittens and slobber all over him, but never show ANY sign of aggression towards him.

THEN we got Miss Kitty. We got her October of last year. In her last house, she got run of the house for the 1st 2 years of her life, and at night they would bring their 2 dobermans inside and lock her in the bathroom. She would tease the dogs under the door, but from what I understand she never came face to face with them. Fast forward to October of '07. They cant keep her, we take her, they say "shes fine with dogs." She is ABSOLUTELY TERRIFIED of all of my dogs.(I had 4 at the time.) We have moved with her twice, and in the apartment she'd come out if the dogs were at daycare, but she was still terrified of them. She lived (no joke) in my laundry room behind the dryer.

The night we moved into our current house, she was in my closet because I hadn't set up the cat room yet, and Chance and Kody(beagle) had her cornered. She scratched up Chances nose pretty bad, and they plucked some of her fur. She was again terrified. Once I set up the cat room, she NEVER came out of it. She hid in her mouse house in the closet. Many times I tried to introduce the cat to Chance, to no avail. She would scratch, claw, bite, hiss, and jump out of my arms and hide, even if I had Chance in a relaxed sit-stay.

2 nights ago, for some reason, Chance broke into the cat room, and attacked and killed Miss Kitty. She was found by my fiance laying in a pool of blood. She had defecated in the room, and there was hair and blood all over the walls, so I know there was a struggle. The water dish on the table was knocked over, and both mouse houses were all twisted and a mess.

Since then, Chance has acted no different towards my other 2 cats. He has gone up to both of them and licked their faces, (I am assuming he is not just tasting them.) And my trainer says they _should_ be fine.

What I would like is everyones input. I am enrolling Chance into obedience class and I will go as high as I have to until he has a rock solid recall, sit stay, and down stay. I crate him when I am not 2 feet from him. And I keep an eye on the cats around him.

What do you guys think? The trainer said that Miss Kitty put off such a scent of fear, that Chance perceived her to be prey and thats why he was so relentless to get to her. Do you guys think my other 2 cats are safe with him?


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## borzoimom

What your trainer means by " scent of fear" is the defecation the cat did in fear. Unfortunate but true- an animal that is soooooo frightened loose control of their body functions. 
Jenn- I wish I was there to help you. I know there are no words to help here other than support and yes- realization of these things can happen. He probably isnt having problems with the other cats because they do not conduct themselves " as prey" - meaning use to the dogs etc. This was probably a " horrid game" gone bad. I would crate him if you can not watch him around the cats. But I will say- a smaller dog or cat that conducts themselves more self confident is less likely to be " jumped".. When I had my shepherds I had a little like 7 pound affinpincher that ran the house. She was the boss, and they all knew it. Never once acting frightened. Nothing to start the "prey" reaction at all. It sounds like to me Miss Kitty did not have the relationship with the dogs the other cats did, and actually even teased it..


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## Inga

Jenn I am so sorry to hear about your cat. I agree with BM. The other cats are not behaving strangely so Chance feels no need to react. What a horrid thing to have to walk into. All I can say is, I am sorry.


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## Kotone

Wow, I'm so sorry that this happened to you. I have to agree with Borzoimom, it sounds like your cat's behavior did a lot to activate Chance's prey drive...fear, running, going nuts, etc...and he just went overboard trying to get the prey. I think that he'll probably be okay with the other cats, since they're so much more relaxed around him. But you're probably right to keep an eye on him just in case, until his training progresses.

Again, so sorry that this happened to you.


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## Dogstar

I would go ahead and keep him separated from cats unless supervised, just because there is no point in potentially setting up the situation. Other than that, I think you're on hte right track. I'm sorry about Miss Kitty.


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## Elana55

You will NEVER be able to trust Chance again with a cat. Ever. Period. 

I think, from your description of your relationship with both Chance and Kody that a GSD is more dog than you can reasonably handle. Beagles are different thant GSD's. I have GSD's that would not hurt the cats.. but that training, by whatever method it would take, waqs invoked on day one. 

The cat was terrified and the thing got out of hand. 

I think you have an excellant relationship with your beagle, but I think with Chance you are "over dogg-ed" and you may want to reconsider retaining him in your ownership. I know you love him to pieces, and I know you are planning to go to any lengths ro "fix' this due to all you have been thru, but fixing it might jusdt mean getting someone else at the other end of the leash.

I know that sounds very very tough, but having read your posts all along with regards to this dog that is what I am thinking. 

GSD's need a JOB. They need STRUCTURE. They are highly intelligent and whil find ways to be amused if you don't find them a job to keep them amused. You need to spend a LOT of time.. more than with Kody and perhaps more than you have actually, to keep a GSD content. 

I haven't been on the forum much.. have a pinched nerve in my neck.. but I saw this tonight and had to reply. 

Please understand, I am NOT bashing you or bashing Chance and I am sorry this happened. Very sorry indeed. 

The cat is even sorrier.


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## FilleBelle

I personally would NEVER feel comfortable keeping cats in the same home as a dog that had killed one. Someone would have to go, if it were my house.

I am so sorry this happened. What a trauma for all concerned.


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## borzoimom

Ya know- it cracks me up- having sighthounds we see ' cat safe"- uh safe with those cats or cats use to dogs.. Its not the same thing at all.. My maine ***** were like uh we own the house- give it up dogs, and dogs never questioned. ON the other hand a neighbors cat may not have the same receive by my dogs.. 
Cats are indivuals as much as dogs. I am shocked to see the posts that are all but bashing 4dogs as doing something wrong here. Its not the dogs fault- and obviuosly the cat was not secure around dogs. I have had toy dogs come into my house and run the place- others not acting in flight mode and my dogs would chase if given the chance. Just because this happened to her dog, and to that one cat, does not IN ANY WAY mean the dog would kill another cat etc. Even as chase driven femka is, she would not chase or hurt a smaller animal with confidence- but do not put a possum etc near her as the hunt is on..


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## Love's_Sophie

borzoimom said:


> Just because this happened to her dog, and to that one cat, does not IN ANY WAY mean the dog would kill another cat etc. !


hmmm...try telling that to one of my goats who survived (by a miracle) THREE attacks by the same dog; granted this is a natural prey animal for a dog, but the breed of goats I have don't tolerate dogs...they actually 'fight', rather than run from them. Dog wound up killing a sheep later on...can't tell me that once a dog does something like this that it can't easily become a habit... I have seen this scenario happen more than once; with any manner of animals; especially with dogs that are allowed to run...they learn quickly that animals that run can be a source of sick 'amusement'...of course it is just the prey drive, but still...a dog that does something like this 'once' can wind up doing it again. To say that it 'couldn't' is 'wrong', because it could...dogs are still prey driven animals, no matter how well trained they may be, if something sets them off, that drive can easily surface. 

4dogs...I would hate to be in your position...I just don't know what to suggest. I am so sorry that the poor cat had to suffer such a horrid end, and now you are stuck trying to decide what to do about it...Chances are the rest of the animals will be okay, especially with lots of training, and watchfulness at all times. I geuss it's all up to you, and I hope that you can make the right decision for everyone who is concerned...It's certainly not a fun place to be


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## JenTN

Wow, I am so sorry for everyone involved.

I kinda feel the same way Elana does, but being new I have been thinking about how to word it. 

I know you love all of your animals and want the best for them, but sometime, we rescue too much and bite off more than we can chew.

Honestly, I think it's terrible for even one cat to live out their life in a "cat room". Cat's need freedom to roam and from stress, and can you honestly say you are providing that? I have a 3 bedroom house with a basement, and I can't imagine having 4 dogs and 3 cats in here. If Bo chases my cats, they can run to the basement- but he is a puppy and he almost NEVER does that anymore because of "leave it". And it's out of play, not aggression.

I think you need to seriously consider altering your pet situation. I know you want to give these animals a chance, but honestly you probably knew this was not the best home for Miss Kitty. Yes, it's hard to think that at a shelter she could be euth'd but honestly I think euthanization is more humane than living in constant fear of a dog and in a "cat room" and then being torn to shreds by a dog. 

We have to realize our limits with regard to the animals that we take in. I feel sorry for so many animals and would LOVE to give them all a good home. But I would rather give my reasonable amount of animals a calm home and everything they need then to have too many to handle when even one would be in fear. 

I really am not trying to be harsh. I think you have a HUGE heart and feel sorry for these guys, but we all have to take a hard look at how much an animal will benefit by coming into our home. Everytime an animal tugs at my heartstrings when I am not out looking to add a family member to my home, I donate money to the shelter, rescue whatever. Then I know I've done something I can handle.

I love GSDs, they are great animals. But I know without a doubt that I do not have the dog and training experience to succesfully keep one in my home. 

I really am sorry and I do hope you keep him and the cats separated. I don't think it was an isolated incident, and if the cats weren't scared of him before, they may be now- cats are very astute and probably know what happened to their housemate.


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## blackrose

My dog Rose has a very high preydrive. She hunts rabbits, birds, chickens (!), deer (she can't catch them), squirrels, ground hogs....anything that moves she will chase. She has caught and killed a feral cat/kitten before. She drug up a cat that had been hit and used it as a chew toy before I could take it away from her. Yet, when she was in the house, she would never chase or even think about chasing our past kitty Rush. Rush would hold his ground, wouldn't run, and wouldn't hesitate to let her know to back off. Rose did and does, however, try to chase after our current kitten. Why? Because Pheobe runs from her. 

Chloe is the same way. She tackles Pheobe and bites at her (playfully, not aggressively, but I don't leave them alone unsupervised). She never ONCE tried to tackle Rush. Ever. 

Sasha, my friends Pit Bull, left Rush completely alone. She gave him his space, he gave her hers, and all was well. Sasha would aggressively chase Pheobe, because Pheobe ran from her. 

I think if your current cats are confident, they should be fine with supervision and a strong "leave it" instilled in your dog. However, it is always a gamble, no matter how good your odds are.


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## melgrj7

I have 2 cats and 2 dogs. I trust them all together . . . when we are around. When we are not around, the dogs are in their crates because I would not trust them not to take a game of chase to far. The cats also have many places where they can get up high away from the dogs if need be. One of our cats stands her ground and the dogs would never think of trying to chase her (they each tried it once and paid for it). The other cat runs, freaks out . . . acts like prey. I know the only thing keeping her from being chased down by the dogs is me.


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## MyCharlie

As I have said many many times, I am no expert, but I agree with both sides here. And unfortunately no matter how much input we have, it is ultimately your decision based on how safe you feel with Chance in the house with Toby and Mittens. If it is worth the risk to you or not. If he broke into the cat room and got Ms. Kitty, I would be afraid to leave him uncrated if I wasn't home and able to supervise. 

That said, I read about dogs' prey behavior recently and I have been searching for the book so I could quote you what it said, but I can't find it - I think I left it at work (argh). Anyway, it talks about how dogs ARE prey animals. They WILL kill other animals. As much as it may bother us to think of our animals that way, they are instinctually killers. But obviously some have a higher prey drive than others. BUT they supposedly won't attack animals that do not "act" like prey. If I can find the book, I'll quote for you exactly what it said. 

And I'm so sorry for your loss, it must have been horrible finding her that way. I'm glad it was Erik and not you - I would have freaked out.


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## JenTN

MyCharlie said:


> As I have said many many times, I am no expert, but I agree with both sides here. And unfortunately no matter how much input we have, it is ultimately your decision based on how safe you feel with Chance in the house with Toby and Mittens. If it is worth the risk to you or not. If he broke into the cat room and got Ms. Kitty, I would be afraid to leave him uncrated if I wasn't home and able to supervise.
> 
> That said, I read about dogs' prey behavior recently and I have been searching for the book so I could quote you what it said, but I can't find it - I think I left it at work (argh). Anyway, it talks about how dogs ARE prey animals. They WILL kill other animals. As much as it may bother us to think of our animals that way, they are instinctually killers. But obviously some have a higher prey drive than others. BUT they supposedly won't attack animals that do not "act" like prey. If I can find the book, I'll quote for you exactly what it said.
> 
> And I'm so sorry for your loss, it must have been horrible finding her that way. I'm glad it was Erik and not you - I would have freaked out.


I understand the variable of cats behaving like prey, but who's to say the 2 remaining cats' behaviors won't change? I may not know squat about dogs, but I have had a cat or cats since the day I was born, and I know they are constantly changing. My kittens now will be fine with Bo licking them and sniffing them one day, then run away as if their lives are in danger when he simply walks by them the next. I don't think it's worth it, but that's just my opinion, and we know what opinions are like....


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## 5 s corral

i am so sorry for your loss 



jamie


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## Alpha

First off, I'm very sorry about Miss Kitty. It sounds as though there was quite a bit of struggle. 

I can understand what your trainer is saying about "smelling fear", I dont' know too much about it, but I can see that it could make sense.

I personally wouldn't ever trust a dog that had killed a cat to be loose in a home with cats. I would probably be nervous even if they were supervised.

I wouldn't blame Chance, he's a dog, and he's hardwired to chase and possibly kill small animals, but I definitely wouldn't ever trust him again, no matter what.

As you said, unfortunately, the weight is all on your shoulders during this difficult time.

Whatever decision you make, I'm sure it will be what's best for your fur-kiddies.


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## loratliff

I'm sorry about Miss Kitty. It is always sad to loose a pet under any circumstances.

I really have to agree with JenTN and Elana. I've followed quite a few of your posts since I've joined the forums and while I agree that you have a huge heart and genuinely love all your animals, I think you're in over your head in many ways. I, too, don't think that a designated "cat room" is a very happy existence for any cat. Why would you bring home a cat, discover it's terrified of dogs and then continue to keep the cat? That's just asking for it...

From what I've read about Chance, he's under stimulated. Elana has more experience with the breed than I do, but from everything I've read about him, he's not a satisfied dog (mentally, at least).


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## Elana55

loratliff said:


> I'm sorry about Miss Kitty. It is always sad to loose a pet under any circumstances.
> 
> I really have to agree with JenTN and Elana. I've followed quite a few of your posts since I've joined the forums and while I agree that you have a huge heart and genuinely love all your animals, I think you're in over your head in many ways. I, too, don't think that a designated "cat room" is a very happy existence for any cat. Why would you bring home a cat, discover it's terrified of dogs and then continue to keep the cat? That's just asking for it...
> 
> From what I've read about Chance, he's under stimulated. Elana has more experience with the breed than I do, but from everything I've read about him, he's not a satisfied dog (mentally, at least).


This is well said and way less harsh than I sounded. I apologize if my post came across harsh, but you did ask for opinions. 

If your plan is to keep Chance (and after the $$ from the parvo and the conditions you rescued him from I expect that is what you will decide) you may want to consider a few options:

1.) Re home your remaining cats. If is for their safety and, since you love them so very much, that should be 100% tops in your mind and I am sure it is.

2.) Understand that while Beagles can be sort of like having very loving stuffed toys with a sense of humor, GSD's are VERY different. GSD's take life seriously and they are precise and systematic in their approach to every thing. GSD's will NEVER lay on a bed next to you content to just gaze at you lovingly for hours.. they will for awhile, then it is time to get up and GET TO WORK. 

3.) Decide on a job for Chance. This can be obedience titles or something along those lines. This is a job requiring you to learn how to train a dog to be very very precuise. Or you can try something else like Search and Rescue or even agility. Give him a JOB and then pursue training him to do that job and then do that job EVERY DAY. 

4.) Unsderstand YOURSELF. As stated above, there is NO question you love your animals and will go to great lengths to make them happy. However, love isn't enough. I know you have mentioned someday having a dog rescue. In pursuing that goal you also need to understand that such a venture is way more than just love. You cannot "love" a dog into good behavior. That takes training, structure and organiziation of time and efforts.

If you plan to run a rescue someday you are going to also need to be well informed on animal behavior and training so that you reduce your failures (and you WILL have failures!). A rescue is a business and sometimes you are going to get individuals that will be better off PTS than suffering the mental anguish or possible future abuse because they have a behavioral problem that is incompatible with living with humans. 

I admire your goals and your efforts. You have come so very far with your dogs and cats... but this incident is a serious, serious wake up call if you are true to your heart and want to make the rest of your dream come true. 

What if, in running your rescue, this had been a very young Beagle (instead of a cat) that was fear aggressive from being isolated/abused etc? Don't say Chance would 'never' kill another dog.. he would. Fact is, it can happen with ANY dog with other dogs, cats or other species. 

Just some thoughts Jen. Again, I know I sound harsh.. but I am sayintg what I am from years of experience caring for a lot of animals, rescuing a lot of animals and working with a variety of species. I want for you to have your dream and be successful in it. 

Lastly, remember, advice and opinions are worth what you pay.....


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## Bextastic

If Bex ever killed one of my cats there would be HUGE changes in this house. He wouldn't so much as get to sniff another cat. We took the cats into consideration when we decided to get a German Shepherd and decided that if he acted dangerous towards them it would be cats upstairs dog downstairs, no chance for trouble. But killing one? That might just be a deal breaker. I've had my cats for over a year, Bex came in as the one with something to prove to me.

Luckily one cat gave him the beat down in the first day of him being here (the clawless boxing move they do up on their back legs is her specialty) so she has only to glare at him and he's backing off. The other cat he will chase but only playfully. He tried to scruff the cat a few times but we put an end to that (thanks Elana and others who advised) and now on his hyper days he only licks and slobbers all over the cat briefly. And when the cat has had enough Bex gets a quick clawless smack on the nose and the cat walks off, or we can now call him off the cat if it looks annoyed or he's getting to rowdy. But still they were not left unsupervised alone until pretty recently when we were sure these dynamics were safely in place. Even so its never for long, and the cats do have a room in the house sectioned off with a gate so they can get in and Bex can't. They can go there if he gets too rowdy and they need to feel safe, or if they just want some quiet.

As for closed off "cat rooms", my mom has a feral cat in her house that lives in the laundry room behind the washing machine, just as you described yours doing. It breaks my heart. It is terrified of people, just as yours was terrified of dogs. It doesn't come out from behind the washing machine except to eat, quickly, when no one is looking. I told my mom to seriously consider the cats quality of life with her. If my mom had dogs and they were the problem, trust me that cat would be rehomed in a heartbeat. But when its that scared of people in general a solution is even tougher. But when a cat is living in a six inch space pressed between loud machinery and a wall, theres a huge problem.


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## wvasko

Dogs&Cats
Not going to give any different answers other than Murphy's Law, Bad unplanned stuff happens, sometimes to very good people. So very sorry, no dog/cat lover should have to walk in a room and see that nightmare. Try not beat yourself up over it because I know you probably are, I have read some of your threads since joining forum and know that you try hard to get job done. Just keep on fighting the good fight.
wvasko


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## 4dogs3cats

Love's_Sophie said:


> hmmm...try telling that to one of my goats who survived (by a miracle) THREE attacks by the same dog;


It was the same goat. Thats how I saw this.. Miss Kitty was the one that caused Chance such an issue. If your dog had attacked 3 different goats, then it would be the same. But the same goat 3 times is pretty much what happened with Chance, he NEVER took to Miss Kitty.


It has been 3 days since it happened, and I have to say I won't be rehoming anyone.

I honestly do not think I am in over my head with Chance.

I do not have a designated "cat room." What i call the cat room is the room that yes is blocked off by a baby gate because it has the litterbox and their food in there. Toby and Mittens are RARELY in there, and if they are, they are usually using one of the two items I mentioned are in there.

I tried to rehome Miss kitty. Our shelters are so full if you buy one cat you get a second one free, they aren't accepting animals, and I did not think this cat deserved to be put down.

I know her eventaul fate was much worse and its something I have to deal with.

Chance may not be all there from the parvo, but he has never even showed his teeth to Miss Kitty, always just barking and jumping and nipping trying to play, at least from what I could tell.

When I left this morning, Toby was laying on the counter in the hallway, and Mittens was on the reclining chair next to Erik. Chance doesn't give them a second thought. Funny thing, like BM said, both my current cats are maine *****, and they very much do put off an attitude of, "I own this place."

The 2 cats I had before I got Chance, he loves them. I do supervise them while they are together, and yes he does get crated when I am not home. I do not get nervous when they are together, why would I want Chance to sense anything but good feelings when around my 2 cats?

I have 3 dogs, and now 2 cats in my 3 bedroom 2 bathroom house. We are not crowded. I have an entire room set off that the cats CAN go to if they wanted.

I dont feel bashed, but I do feel like things are being taken way too extreme here.

I worked with Chance yesterday at jumping, tired him out. He walked inside, layed down, and a cat walked right past him, and he didnt even take a second glance.

Chance did not see this cat as "our" cat.

Put it this way, if you were outside with your dog and it saw a stray cat come in your yard and your dog attacked it and killed it, would you be worried about YOUR cats? Probably not. I must reiterate that Chance did not like this cat from day one.

Chance, kody, Bailey, Mittens, and Toby will all continue to have a loving home with me. It is a horrible horrible tragic event that happened, and if I could change it I certainly would.

I think a lot of you would change your opinions, though, if you came into my house and saw the balance that we really have.


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## borzoimom

4dogs- even a dog that is afraid of other dogs is more likely to be attacked than one that is not. Same thing with cats- only sheer size alone can make the unfortunate. If a chihuahua bites a person or a cat, surely would not be as bad as a larger dog. My heart goes out to you.


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## 4dogs3cats

JenTN said:


> Honestly, I think it's terrible for even one cat to live out their life in a "cat room". Cat's need freedom to roam and from stress, and can you honestly say you are providing that? I have a 3 bedroom house with a basement, and I can't imagine having 4 dogs and 3 cats in here. If Bo chases my cats, they can run to the basement- but he is a puppy and he almost NEVER does that anymore because of "leave it". And it's out of play, not aggression.
> 
> I think you need to seriously consider altering your pet situation. I know you want to give these animals a chance, but honestly you probably knew this was not the best home for Miss Kitty. Yes, it's hard to think that at a shelter she could be euth'd but honestly I think euthanization is more humane than living in constant fear of a dog and in a "cat room" and then being torn to shreds by a dog.
> 
> We have to realize our limits with regard to the animals that we take in. I feel sorry for so many animals and would LOVE to give them all a good home. But I would rather give my reasonable amount of animals a calm home and everything they need then to have too many to handle when even one would be in fear.





loratliff said:


> I think you're in over your head in many ways. I, too, don't think that a designated "cat room" is a very happy existence for any cat. Why would you bring home a cat, discover it's terrified of dogs and then continue to keep the cat? That's just asking for it...
> 
> From what I've read about Chance, he's under stimulated. Elana has more experience with the breed than I do, but from everything I've read about him, he's not a satisfied dog (mentally, at least).





Bextastic said:


> As for closed off "cat rooms", my mom has a feral cat in her house that lives in the laundry room behind the washing machine, just as you described yours doing. It breaks my heart. It is terrified of people, just as yours was terrified of dogs. It doesn't come out from behind the washing machine except to eat, quickly, when no one is looking. I told my mom to seriously consider the cats quality of life with her. If my mom had dogs and they were the problem, trust me that cat would be rehomed in a heartbeat. But when its that scared of people in general a solution is even tougher. But when a cat is living in a six inch space pressed between loud machinery and a wall, theres a huge problem.


Just so everyone knows, I was told this cat was fine with dogs, and the first month I had her, I was trying to introduce her to the dogs I have. She was scared, but I figured she was adjusting, so I spent more time alone with her in the room she stayed in. Before long I was attached to her, and realized she would never be okay with these dogs. I figured I would keep her seperated from the dogs until I could find her a new home. It's terrible what happened, and the day BEFORE this happened, I said to my dad, "I'm going to buy a bedroom door from home depot and cut a cat door in it, that way Miss Kitty feels safe until I can find her a home and the other dogs can't get to her."

Imagine how terrible I feel when this happened the day AFTER I said that.

THIS is the terrible "cat room" I keep them locked in









Toby sure does hate it doesnt he?









I know I said I wanted input. I wanted input on the situation at hand, not people telling me I shouldnt own Chance and I am in over my head. Do unfortunate things not happen anymore?



borzoimom said:


> 4dogs- even a dog that is afraid of other dogs is more likely to be attacked than one that is not. Same thing with cats- only sheer size alone can make the unfortunate. If a chihuahua bites a person or a cat, surely would not be as bad as a larger dog. My heart goes out to you.


thank you. I really thought more people would think this way, not just you, me and inga!

It just seems like everyone is feeding into the myth of "Once a dog tastes blood its going to attack every thing in sight."

I KNOW my hands are full now, and I KNOW I cant trust him around the cats. But the more and more I am with him and the cats and the more normal he acts around them REALLY makes me think that it was JUST THIS ONE cat he had an issue with. Is that not possible?


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## ChrissyBz

Jenn, unfortuneate things happen all the time. In the end it IS your decision.

However you asked for opinions... People are giving you THEIRS. Not everybody is going to agree with you, as long as you're doing what you feel in your heart is best for all the animals concerned. That is really the best you can do.

From my objective standpoint, no one has said anything rude or offensive. Some of the advice was blunt, but IMO it was all honestly given and probably made based on each individual's personal experiences, and what THEY would do in YOUR situation.

You can't really ask for more than that. Can you?

I'm sure your feelings are still raw, give yourself some time hon.


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## 4dogs3cats

I know. It's just like everyones immediate reaction was Oh get rid of the dog Oh get rid of the cats.

Understand that I just lost a cat and I am not ready to even THINK about losing any other of my animals.

Im sorry if I lashed out on anyone, Im still just very upset, and everyone seems fine, and I can only hope they stay that way.


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## JenTN

I would not have offered my opinion if you had not asked for input. It seems like you asked for opinions, but really honestly only wanted people to validate what you are going to do. I am a blunt person, I tried to word this as well as I could.

What makes me even more nervous is that you just said that Chance never showed signs that he was going to bite Miss Kitty- that seems to show that he is a bit unstable.

I am sorry if I offended you, you and I just have very different outlooks and opinions and you asked and I gave mine---i stated several times that it was my opinion and even said "I think".

As for if my dog killed a stray cat- I would not have a dog in a house with my cats that killed ANY cat. There are too many dogs that don't have a crazy-high prey drive for me to risk having a high prey drive dog with my cats. I value their lives as much as I do my dog's.

I didn't say the cat room was terrible- I never saw it. I DID say cats don't deserve to be confined to a room- I got that from YOUR statement about Miss Kitty's living conditions:



4dogs3cats said:


> She lived (no joke) in my laundry room behind the dryer.
> 
> Once I set up the cat room, she NEVER came out of it.



I don't care how nice the accomadations are, cats aren't designed to live in one room.

And my justification for saying that I thought you were in over your head (but with a big heart, and with good intentions) is partly because I have read where you have 2 dogs whom you have sent to live with your mom (yes, I know one is with you now), your fiancee left behind a dog with his mom, and you just posted last month that you contacted a rescue about getting yet another dog. In between this, you are posting about behavioral issues (serious ones, no less) that you have with your existing dogs. I am sorry to sound harsh, but that is where I was coming from. IMO, Chance should be in a one-animal home to develop his full potential and overcome his issues. And I also believe he seriously needs a job.


----------



## 4dogs3cats

JenTN said:


> I would not have offered my opinion if you had not asked for input. It seems like you asked for opinions, but really honestly only wanted people to validate what you are going to do. I am a blunt person, I tried to word this as well as I could.
> 
> What makes me even more nervous is that you just said that Chance never showed signs that he was going to bite Miss Kitty- that seems to show that he is a bit unstable.
> 
> I am sorry if I offended you, you and I just have very different outlooks and opinions and you asked and I gave mine---i stated several times that it was my opinion and even said "I think".
> 
> As for if my dog killed a stray cat- I would not have a dog in a house with my cats that killed ANY cat. There are too many dogs that don't have a crazy-high prey drive for me to risk having a high prey drive dog with my cats. I value their lives as much as I do my dog's.
> 
> I didn't say the cat room was terrible- I never saw it. I DID say cats don't deserve to be confined to a room- I got that from YOUR statement about Miss Kitty's living conditions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't care how nice the accomadations are, cats aren't designed to live in one room.
> 
> And my justification for saying that I thought you were in over your head (but with a big heart, and with good intentions) is partly because I have read where you have 2 dogs whom you have sent to live with your mom (yes, I know one is with you now), your fiancee left behind a dog with his mom, and you just posted last month that you contacted a rescue about getting yet another dog. In between this, you are posting about behavioral issues (serious ones, no less) that you have with your existing dogs. I am sorry to sound harsh, but that is where I was coming from. IMO, Chance should be in a one-animal home to develop his full potential and overcome his issues. And I also believe he seriously needs a job.


Chance may be unstable sure, but how do you know this wasn't a game of chase gone wrong? I was trying to find a home for the cat, no she never came out of there and I felt terrible for her, but I was trying to find a home for her.

What kind of job would you like for chance to have? McDonalds maybe? hes a DOG. he gets exercise, he gets food, and he gets crated when we arent home.

Of the 4 dogs and 3 cats I oringinally had, the 3 dogs and 2 cats that I have now are the ones I went out and GOT. The one that went to live with Eriks mom also lives with Eriks brother. The dog belongs to him, but we kept him when we had the big house, when we had to move, he went back to live with brian and eriks mom.

Miss Kitty, yes I agree I should have not taken her in. I was in a big house, and I was told she was fine with dogs.

My dogs right now don't have any behavioral issues. I even said since we moved back into a house and things are more secure, my dogs have been angels, until Wednesday night.

I thank you all for your input, and I probably am taking this too harshly, but I am a very compassionate and sensitive person. I do not like being told I should own the dog I own. It hurts me. And when I am already just trying to make it through the day as it is, it hurts a lot more to even think about giving Chance away.

So I am sorry if I came off harsh. My head is everywhere right now


----------



## Motebi

I'm not a cat person and I am very sorry, this happened to your poor kitty. However - you also have to be aware of the fact, that locking the dog up 24/7 will make him very unhappy and being a working-breed, will also make him somewhat neurotic and not easy to live with.  Be the "leader" and don't change the daily routine too much around. Keep Chance busy, give him something to do so he is mentally balanced.  If you have your doubts, just talk to an animal behaviorist and have the situation checked on site. We weren't there, we didn't see what happened and how it happened. Most likely the cat started defending herself and Chance was the "stronger" one. End of story. As sad as the outcome was, the cat lost the fight.........


----------



## 4dogs3cats

Motebi said:


> I'm not a cat person and I am very sorry, this happened to your poor kitty. However - you also have to be aware of the fact, that locking the dog up 24/7 will make him very unhappy and being a working-breed, will also make him somewhat neurotic and not easy to live with.  Be the "leader" and don't change the daily routine too much around. Keep Chance busy, give him something to do so he is mentally balanced.  If you have your doubts, just talk to an animal behaviorist and have the situation checked on site. We weren't there, we didn't see what happened and how it happened. Most likely the cat started defending herself and Chance was the "stronger" one. End of story. As sad as the outcome was, the cat lost the fight.........


Thank you so much for this post. Chance doesnt get locked up 24/7 I can assure you of that. he does get crated when I leave for work at 9am- and then gets let out when Erik comes home at around 3pm (He works outside in AZ so it will soon be like 1pm!) He gets crated at night otherwise he will play in the sprinklers at 6am and then come jump on mom all muddy.

I am hoping that keeping their routines pretty much the same and just moving on day by day, we can have a good balance.


----------



## borzoimom

btw- check chance for cat bites or scratches-. They can turn bad very fast.. You may need antibiotics for chance.


----------



## JenTN

4dogs3cats said:


> Chance may be unstable sure, but how do you know this wasn't a game of chase gone wrong? I was trying to find a home for the cat, no she never came out of there and I felt terrible for her, but I was trying to find a home for her.
> 
> What kind of job would you like for chance to have? McDonalds maybe? hes a DOG. he gets exercise, he gets food, and he gets crated when we arent home.
> 
> Of the 4 dogs and 3 cats I oringinally had, the 3 dogs and 2 cats that I have now are the ones I went out and GOT. The one that went to live with Eriks mom also lives with Eriks brother. The dog belongs to him, but we kept him when we had the big house, when we had to move, he went back to live with brian and eriks mom.
> 
> Miss Kitty, yes I agree I should have not taken her in. I was in a big house, and I was told she was fine with dogs.
> 
> My dogs right now don't have any behavioral issues. I even said since we moved back into a house and things are more secure, my dogs have been angels, until Wednesday night.
> 
> I thank you all for your input, and I probably am taking this too harshly, but I am a very compassionate and sensitive person. I do not like being told I should own the dog I own. It hurts me. And when I am already just trying to make it through the day as it is, it hurts a lot more to even think about giving Chance away.
> 
> So I am sorry if I came off harsh. My head is everywhere right now


I DONT know that it wasn't a game of chase gone wrong, but how do you know that it WAS? It just seems like an awful big gamble to risk the lives of 2 cats on. Maybe I'm just too much of a cat person. Any dog that killed ANY cat, I don't care what the circumstances, would not be welcome in my house as long as I have cats. That to me would be like bringing a dog that had bitten a child into my house with kids. Uh-uh, not gonna happen. It is your decision completely, I am just answering your questions.

As for a job, no I didn't literally mean McDonalds, Elana gave you some VERY good suggestions for GSD's. They are not meant to be companion animals with no job to do. That's what gives them such a bad rap of being neurotic.


----------



## 4dogs3cats

JenTN said:


> I DONT know that it wasn't a game of chase gone wrong, but how do you know that it WAS? It just seems like an awful big gamble to risk the lives of 2 cats on. Maybe I'm just too much of a cat person. Any dog that killed ANY cat, I don't care what the circumstances, would not be welcome in my house as long as I have cats. That to me would be like bringing a dog that had bitten a child into my house with kids. Uh-uh, not gonna happen. It is your decision completely, I am just answering your questions.
> 
> As for a job, no I didn't literally mean McDonalds, Elana gave you some VERY good suggestions for GSD's. They are not meant to be companion animals with no job to do. That's what gives them such a bad rap of being neurotic.


I dont know either way what happened in there. I said to Erik had this been one of the cats that he liked and got along with, than yes, someone would be finding a new home. Knowing the backround of this with these 2 just seems more like it was an isolated incident.

I know Chance needs to be stimulated. I am working with him, and he, for the most part, is very happy. He will be going to training, and quite possibly a vet to make sure he is okay.

Bmom- I checked, and he had once small scratch on his nose, and Kody had a scratch on the top of his head. These two are the two that were involved in the incident that happened the day we moved in.

ETA- Jen- I am sorry if I have been rude to you. I really am. Its hard to give advice ovee the internt not knowing the whole situation, and the OP lashing out on you for not knowing all the information doesnt help. I hope this doesnt ruin anything, I always enjoyed your posts.

Most of the issues my dogs have had have been caused directly or indirectly by me. Now that things are stable and the dogs have a backyard as well as walks, Kody has stopped barking, and Chance still has his leash issues, but is getting better. I am not the type to give up. Chance is a year old, and has a lot of potential.

I want to also add one fact. Miss Kitty had nowhere to go. She was too scared to go out of that room, and even if she went up on the table, Chance could have followed.

Toby and Mittens are very quick and very confidant. Mittens can climb the back block wall with one jump, and they can both easily get on top of the fridge. IF this was a game of chase, I am 100% certain Mittens and/or Toby could have easily gotten away.

IMO- It was the wrong cat with the wrong dog.

Thank you all for your input though


----------



## JenTN

4dogs3cats said:


> I dont know either way what happened in there. I said to Erik had this been one of the cats that he liked and got along with, than yes, someone would be finding a new home. Knowing the backround of this with these 2 just seems more like it was an isolated incident.
> 
> I know Chance needs to be stimulated. I am working with him, and he, for the most part, is very happy. He will be going to training, and quite possibly a vet to make sure he is okay.
> 
> Bmom- I checked, and he had once small scratch on his nose, and Kody had a scratch on the top of his head. These two are the two that were involved in the incident that happened the day we moved in.
> 
> ETA- Jen- I am sorry if I have been rude to you. I really am. Its hard to give advice ovee the internt not knowing the whole situation, and the OP lashing out on you for not knowing all the information doesnt help. I hope this doesnt ruin anything, I always enjoyed your posts.
> 
> Most of the issues my dogs have had have been caused directly or indirectly by me. Now that things are stable and the dogs have a backyard as well as walks, Kody has stopped barking, and Chance still has his leash issues, but is getting better. I am not the type to give up. Chance is a year old, and has a lot of potential.
> 
> I want to also add one fact. Miss Kitty had nowhere to go. She was too scared to go out of that room, and even if she went up on the table, Chance could have followed.
> 
> Toby and Mittens are very quick and very confidant. Mittens can climb the back block wall with one jump, and they can both easily get on top of the fridge. IF this was a game of chase, I am 100% certain Mittens and/or Toby could have easily gotten away.
> 
> IMO- It was the wrong cat with the wrong dog.
> 
> Thank you all for your input though



You have not been rude to me, therefore no need to apologize I have been trying to answer your questions and tell you what *I* would do in this predicament. You can choose to take as much as you want to away from my advice. I only offered because you asked. I know how you feel, and how raw it is, I am truly sorry. Trust me, I have been through the guilty feelings in loss of a pet. If you want to talk (not advice, just talk) feel free to PM me. I have always enjoyed your posts as well. And I do agree that it was a bad combination-fearful cat/prey driven dog.


----------



## 4dogs3cats

JenTN said:


> You have not been rude to me, therefore no need to apologize I have been trying to answer your questions and tell you what *I* would do in this predicament. You can choose to take as much as you want to away from my advice. I only offered because you asked. I know how you feel, and how raw it is, I am truly sorry. Trust me, I have been through the guilty feelings in loss of a pet. If you want to talk (not advice, just talk) feel free to PM me. I have always enjoyed your posts as well. And I do agree that it was a bad combination-fearful cat/prey driven dog.


I do appreciate everything that you as well as everyone else have said.

Rehoming him or the cats did cross my mind, but I would rather work with what we have. When I am home, I dont even worry about them. He seems much more at ease now. I am wondering if she was the root of all his anxiety to begin with. "A cat I hate that I cant get to." I think we will take it one day at a time, but if anything so much as semi-escalates, believe me I WILL take the steps needed. I do not feel I am putting my cats in danger, so we will go off that and take it a day at a time.


----------



## Criosphynx

Forgive me, but i don't understand this whole "cat room" argument.
I don't see anything wrong with it as long as they can come and go. Saying its not "natural" or "not big enough" is a demeaning statement.

If i person lives in a small house or a small apartment should they not be allowed to own cats because the space is "too small"? What if i person lives in a studio apartment? 

In my experience if a cat that is not happy with staying in a space because of the spaces size, it will still be unhappy even if given a bigger space. Cats are either content or they aren't and they all are different. 

Ever seen a hamster clawing at the corner of its cage? Give it a bigger cage and it will still find the corner and want out. Even if given the run of the house and no dogs i bet that cat still would have been a nervous wreck untill it adjusted.


----------



## ChrissyBz

Jennn, I have been thinking, and thinking, about whether or not to post this.

My dad's dog Bear was a cat killer of feral cats. BUT is introduced to cats and it was made clear that they were family, there was never an issue.

He was a Rottie BTW and had bitten people who came to close to my Dad or me. But his favorite buddy was a big black cat named Nicodemus. They would sleep together, with Nic sleeping in between Bear's front legs.

I had his sister Tessa, she would hunt and kill small birds. I think she was better at it than a lot of cats. She lived with peccary and they would run play and sleep together. Even bark at threats together. As a matter of fact she even let the peccary nurse on her although she was spayed and never produced milk.

I didn't want to post this and influence your decisions one way or the other and then have it go bad. (it is always something when keeping different species together that MUST be considered as a possibility)

Also every dog is an individual and different even in the stages of their lives.

I DID want to put it out there that is IS possible with SOME dogs to differentiate the differences between family and prey. 

Perhaps, because she never participated in the"family" he never considered her part of it.


----------



## 4dogs3cats

Criosphynx said:


> Forgive me, but i don't understand this whole "cat room" argument.
> I don't see anything wrong with it as long as they can come and go. Saying its not "natural" or "not big enough" is a demeaning statement.
> 
> If i person lives in a small house or a small apartment should they not be allowed to own cats because the space is "too small"? What if i person lives in a studio apartment?
> 
> In my experience if a cat that is not happy with staying in a space because of the spaces size, it will still be unhappy even if given a bigger space. Cats are either content or they aren't and they all are different.
> 
> Ever seen a hamster clawing at the corner of its cage? Give it a bigger cage and it will still find the corner and want out. Even if given the run of the house and no dogs i bet that cat still would have been a nervous wreck untill it adjusted.


I think she would have. She would come out of the room when the dogs were at daycare. She did come out come to think of it, at this new house, but promptly hid in the guest bathroom. (Eriks brother found her cowering behind the toilet,) I think change was bad for her, and she lived a certain way for 2 years and then everything was uprooted.



ChrissyBz said:


> Jennn, I have been thinking, and thinking, about whether or not to post this.
> 
> My dad's dog Bear was a cat killer of feral cats. BUT is introduced to cats and it was made clear that they were family, there was never an issue.
> 
> He was a Rottie BTW and had bitten people who came to close to my Dad or me. But his favorite buddy was a big black cat named Nicodemus. They would sleep together, with Nic sleeping in between Bear's front legs.
> 
> I had his sister Tessa, she would hunt and kill small birds. I think she was better at it than a lot of cats. She lived with peccary and they would run play and sleep together. Even bark at threats together. As a matter of fact she even let the peccary nurse on her although she was spayed and never produced milk.
> 
> I didn't want to post this and influence your decisions one way or the other and then have it go bad. (it is always something when keeping different species together that MUST be considered as a possibility)
> 
> Also every dog is an individual and different even in the stages of their lives.
> 
> I DID want to put it out there that is IS possible with SOME dogs to differentiate the differences between family and prey.
> 
> Perhaps, because she never participated in the"family" he never considered her part of it.


THAT is how I have been seeing it... He had really only come face to face with her a few times, and each time she clawed and freaked and ran away.

I am hoping that this is how he sees it, but I AM being careful, just in case. They ARE animals.


----------



## Dakota Spirit

Just popping in for the whole 'Cat Room' aspect - 

Some cats purposely choose a room for their own. If I remember right, Miss. Kitty was happiest when she WAS in a smaller room away from all the excitement of the main house. I had a cat the same way. She was born a feral kitten and even after years of living in our house, retained the instinct to remain hidden in her 'den' or territory for a better part of the day. However, she was also one of the happiest cats I've encountered. Loved attention, loved the family, but also loved her room. 

Like with anything else, you cannot make blanket statement such as "Cats were not made for staying in one room.." etc. Different things work for different cats. I know what my Oreo preferred and I know many other cats that were just like her.

ETA: Forgot to mention that I am terribly sorry for your lose, Jen. You're in a tough situation that would be hard for anyone to deal with. Just keep a level head and do what you think is right. No one can fault you for that.


----------



## 4dogs3cats

Dakota Spirit said:


> Just popping in for the whole 'Cat Room' aspect -
> 
> Some cats purposely choose a room for their own. If I remember right, Miss. Kitty was happiest when she WAS in a smaller room away from all the excitement of the main house. I had a cat the same way. She was born a feral kitten and even after years of living in our house, retained the instinct to remain hidden in her 'den' or territory for a better part of the day. However, she was also one of the happiest cats I've encountered. Loved attention, loved the family, but also loved her room.
> 
> Like with anything else, you cannot make blanket statement such as "Cats were not made for staying in one room.." etc. Different things work for different cats. I know what my Oreo preferred and I know many other cats that were just like her.
> 
> ETA: Forgot to mention that I am terribly sorry for your lose, Jen. You're in a tough situation that would be hard for anyone to deal with. Just keep a level head and do what you think is right. No one can fault you for that.


Thank you. yeah she hated being out in the open, always very unsure of herself. I feel bad because I know her previous living conditions probably are what caused her being so unsure of herself


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## whimsy

Just finished reading all the posts....wow is all I can say. Why would anybody think that Chance would kill another cat? Dogs and cats live together harmoniously all the time. This is is simply a case of a horrid tragedy happening for no reason. Things happen that can't always be accounted for, period. As for rehoming Chance, I wouldn't do it 4 cats. Keep your cats and Chance. the way I look at it the cat was mostly to blame for this accident. A feral cat has different scents than ordinairy housecats and they do act like prey where you would see a normal cat hiss and claw and usually scare the dog away. My friend keers feral cats and has all kinds of other critters...he also works in a pet shop and knows a lot about animals. His housecats display no fear towards his dogs but the ferals have a loft to call their own and never come down except to go outside. Did someone not think that maybe Miss Kitty had some disease that wasn't identified and she acted weird to the point of leaving a scared sick smell in the house. Chance probably happened to come up on her by chance and the cat acting like prey drove him to chase and it ended badly. If Chance did have his shots within 2 weeks of this happening you can also blame the shots. Some dogs have terrible reactions to shots. I have 3 shepherds and 4 cats and they all live peacefully. Do they tease, put up mock attacks, or aggravate each other at times? Of course, this is only natural, but never has any one of them been hurt. My shepherds will tree a stray cat but they would never kill it. Dogs were born to chase and cats were born to tease. 
Keep your pets 4Dogs and don't crucify yourself over this. No one is to blame, it just happened. You were the only one that tried to give Miss Kitty a chance at life, without you she probably would have met a worse fate. She'll be waiting for Chance at the Rainbow bridge. Sorry you had to go through all this.


----------



## Bextastic

I'm sorry if anything I said came off as "lashing out" or picking on you at all. It was meant to be a sharing of my personal experience with GSD's and cats, and with cats living behind washing machines. If you re-read it you will see it was mostly a narrative of what I've seen/experienced with nothing really directed towards you, but I'm sorry if you took it harshly.

On the topic of giving GSD's jobs, if you don't have time for Obedience or Agility training right now you can get him a backpack and have him carry something on his walks, like water and a little collapsable for himself. It takes up more energy to walk that way and gives him a mini-mission. You could also find a herding facility in your area and have him learn to herd sheep. Thats very fufilling for them (of course) and doesn't take up as much time to train for as obedience as its mostly instinct and a good instructor at the facility should know how to bring it out of them with a little work. Even training them to catch a frisbee is a job. Bex will try to catch frisbees until he collapses, apparently its 10x better than fetching a ball to him, even though he jumps and misses like... 90% of the time. Maybe that makes the catches more satisfying? Fetch is too easy I guess


----------



## 4dogs3cats

whimsy said:


> Just finished reading all the posts....wow is all I can say. Why would anybody think that Chance would kill another cat? Dogs and cats live together harmoniously all the time. This is is simply a case of a horrid tragedy happening for no reason. Things happen that can't always be accounted for, period. As for rehoming Chance, I wouldn't do it 4 cats. Keep your cats and Chance. the way I look at it the cat was mostly to blame for this accident. A feral cat has different scents than ordinairy housecats and they do act like prey where you would see a normal cat hiss and claw and usually scare the dog away. My friend keers feral cats and has all kinds of other critters...he also works in a pet shop and knows a lot about animals. His housecats display no fear towards his dogs but the ferals have a loft to call their own and never come down except to go outside. Did someone not think that maybe Miss Kitty had some disease that wasn't identified and she acted weird to the point of leaving a scared sick smell in the house. Chance probably happened to come up on her by chance and the cat acting like prey drove him to chase and it ended badly. If Chance did have his shots within 2 weeks of this happening you can also blame the shots. Some dogs have terrible reactions to shots. I have 3 shepherds and 4 cats and they all live peacefully. Do they tease, put up mock attacks, or aggravate each other at times? Of course, this is only natural, but never has any one of them been hurt. My shepherds will tree a stray cat but they would never kill it. Dogs were born to chase and cats were born to tease.
> Keep your pets 4Dogs and don't crucify yourself over this. No one is to blame, it just happened. You were the only one that tried to give Miss Kitty a chance at life, without you she probably would have met a worse fate. She'll be waiting for Chance at the Rainbow bridge. Sorry you had to go through all this.


This made me cry. Thank you for your post.



Bextastic said:


> I'm sorry if anything I said came off as "lashing out" or picking on you at all. It was meant to be a sharing of my personal experience with GSD's and cats, and with cats living behind washing machines. If you re-read it you will see it was mostly a narrative of what I've seen/experienced with nothing really directed towards you, but I'm sorry if you took it harshly.
> 
> On the topic of giving GSD's jobs, if you don't have time for Obedience or Agility training right now you can get him a backpack and have him carry something on his walks, like water and a little collapsable for himself. It takes up more energy to walk that way and gives him a mini-mission. You could also find a herding facility in your area and have him learn to herd sheep. Thats very fufilling for them (of course) and doesn't take up as much time to train for as obedience as its mostly instinct and a good instructor at the facility should know how to bring it out of them with a little work. Even training them to catch a frisbee is a job. Bex will try to catch frisbees until he collapses, apparently its 10x better than fetching a ball to him, even though he jumps and misses like... 90% of the time. Maybe that makes the catches more satisfying? Fetch is too easy I guess


We play with frisbees all the time, and I have a jump set up in my backyard that we work with. I will just be more religious with it. I slacked a little. With them getting used to the new house, and always running around, theyve been tired, but I forget that Chance isnt getting enough mental stimulation. Thanks.


----------



## borzoimom

I had GSD's for over 20 years. This type of thing is rare-. As I said- if the cat was acting afraid of the dog, a prey drive will kick in. Plus- it only takes a little bit to hurt an animal with the size difference we are talking about. There was a problem with the cat before, and opportunity knocked, dog reacted.. I have had shepherds with parrots, other birds, guinea pigs, cats, small dogs- you name it- ... and I am not talking about a few dogs at a time either- I mean many! And just like currently- if I had a cat, and the cat is in charge so to speak, does that mean I would trust my sighthounds with a neighbors cat.. uhhhhhhhh no..


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## 4dogs3cats

borzoimom said:


> I had GSD's for over 20 years. This type of thing is rare-. As I said- if the cat was acting afraid of the dog, a prey drive will kick in. Plus- it only takes a little bit to hurt an animal with the size difference we are talking about. There was a problem with the cat before, and opportunity knocked, dog reacted.. I have had shepherds with parrots, other birds, guinea pigs, cats, small dogs- you name it- ... and I am not talking about a few dogs at a time either- I mean many! And just like currently- if I had a cat, and the cat is in charge so to speak, does that mean I would trust my sighthounds with a neighbors cat.. uhhhhhhhh no..


Yeah exactly. I should also say that what I perceived to be a "struggle" may have been play in Chances eyes. He may have been playing with her how he plays with Kody. I dont know if you all remember, but he once ran after a little pom barking and nipping, trying to play. If he was playing and he nipped her, pissed her off, and she swatted him, pissed him off, you never know.

From what I was told, a gauge to her neck was all the damage done. He left her alone once she died. I just hate to image what she looked like, laying there, bleeding, on the floor.


----------



## borzoimom

Honey- it doesnt take much.. This is a huge size difference. But let me toss something out to you already mentioned.. Dogs know when an animal is not right- its not just " fear smell"- they know. I am not dismissing this, but in knowing your posts etc I know you take animal ownership seriously. I know you know your pets, and tragic as this is- it happened... I wish I had more words to say...


----------



## 4dogs3cats

borzoimom said:


> Honey- it doesnt take much.. This is a huge size difference. But let me toss something out to you already mentioned.. Dogs know when an animal is not right- its not just " fear smell"- they know. I am not dismissing this, but in knowing your posts etc I know you take animal ownership seriously. I know you know your pets, and tragic as this is- it happened... I wish I had more words to say...


It's okay. I feel a little better. I still feel terrible that it happened, but I feel like I have a better understanding on WHY it happened, and that gives me that much more power to not let it happen again.


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## bluedawg

Im sorry you lost Miss Kitty. A fearful cat is what brought this event to happen.

When I was 14 I got a pair of kittens even though my stepmom had a confirmed cat killing dog. Turns out Le Mutt was not only fine with the kittens he was protective of them, they grew up not fearing dogs and would stand their ground with other dogs. Heck they even chased the horses with the dogs. Le Mutt only gave me 1 scare the entire time on the farm. I wont say for certain you will have further problems but I highly dout it.

My current cat Erp, was here before there where any dogs. Blue and my roommates dog Bailey came here as puppies and Erp learned to be very addept at avoiding them or smacking them around. The biggest problem I have with her is she taunts other dogs when she goes outside, she will go to the neighbors house and sit outside their fence.


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## 4dogs3cats

bluedawg said:


> Im sorry you lost Miss Kitty. A fearful cat is what brought this event to happen.
> 
> When I was 14 I got a pair of kittens even though my stepmom had a confirmed cat killing dog. Turns out Le Mutt was not only fine with the kittens he was protective of them, they grew up not fearing dogs and would stand their ground with other dogs. Heck they even chased the horses with the dogs. Le Mutt only gave me 1 scare the entire time on the farm. I wont say for certain you will have further problems but I highly dout it.
> 
> My current cat Erp, was here before there where any dogs. Blue and my roommates dog Bailey came here as puppies and Erp learned to be very addept at avoiding them or smacking them around. The biggest problem I have with her is she taunts other dogs when she goes outside, she will go to the neighbors house and sit outside their fence.


Had Miss Kitty stood her ground and not been so afraid of him, I have no doubts in my mind they would have become the best of friends. It was very unforutnate and thank you for your kind words. I am keeping an eye on my other cats, and while they are sad, they arent acting any different towards Chance. Still keeping fingers cross though.


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## melgrj7

Bextastic said:


> As for closed off "cat rooms", my mom has a feral cat in her house that lives in the laundry room behind the washing machine, just as you described yours doing. It breaks my heart. It is terrified of people, just as yours was terrified of dogs. It doesn't come out from behind the washing machine except to eat, quickly, when no one is looking. I told my mom to seriously consider the cats quality of life with her. If my mom had dogs and they were the problem, trust me that cat would be rehomed in a heartbeat. But when its that scared of people in general a solution is even tougher. But when a cat is living in a six inch space pressed between loud machinery and a wall, theres a huge problem.



My parents cat was feral. My mom hit him with the car one year on Halloween. After a week at the vet he came home, and spent a month and a half behind appliances. We borrowed a very large dog crate from one of my uncles (mastiff sized crate), put some boxes in it with holes (so the cat could hide, but see out of them like these: cat boxes) and of course food, water and a litter box. We put the crate into the corner of our living room, where it was off to the side, so we weren't walking past it often or looking at it when we were sitting. But, we were in the room often (every day, watching TV and hanging out). After a few months we were able to pet the cat and pick him up. It just took him being able to watch us for a while from a safe spot and being forced to be around us, but where he felt safe. He isn't the most outgoing and friendly cat, but we can at least pet him and pick him up if we need to, he is only afraid of strangers now and feels confident enough to walk around the house as long as no one is over.


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## wvasko

Melgrj7
An excellent common sense answer to your cat's problem. You got the program setup so he actually had to be there and with good care and your help he desensitized himself. The cat boxes in crate absolutely was a stunning idea. Will this work with all cats? I don't know, but it worked with yours and it's another option out there for others to try.


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## Elana55

From EVERYTHING you have told on these forums, Chance is not unstable. He may be unsocialized due to the parvo but he IS NOT UNSTABLE. 

HE IS UNTRAINED. This means he is inconsistant and/or not instantaneous in his response to commands (like the recall when he chased the little girl.. and that too could have escalated to biting). He did come to you, but he chased her first. Even tho he slipped his collar he should not ahve left you. Fact is, he should not even have attempted to slip his collar and the presence of the leash should make no difference. That is where you need to go with this dog. 

When a dog is given a command, the object is the dog is not to cease doing that command until you either give another command or release the dog. The minute the dog is released he should also turn and look at you not go willy nilly running off saying "wee wee I am freee." 

I am sorry this happened to you. I know you are raw from it. 

I have a few rooms in my house that are "dog free" too and the room you have for this purpose is fine. The barrier into it was insufficient and it would be an assumption at this point that this has already been replaced so the room is now Dog Proof.



4dogs3cats said:


> It's okay. I feel a little better. I still feel terrible that it happened, but I feel like I have a better understanding on WHY it happened, and that gives me that much more power to not let it happen again.



100% agree. 

Again, I am sorry it happened.



wvasko said:


> Melgrj7
> An excellent common sense answer to your cat's problem. You got the program setup so he actually had to be there and with good care and your help he desensitized himself. The cat boxes in crate absolutely was a stunning idea. Will this work with all cats? I don't know, but it worked with yours and it's another option out there for others to try.


Yes. This is exactly how you "tame" a feral cat.. you use a cat cage and time.


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## Love's_Sophie

4dogs3cats said:


> I know. It's just like everyones immediate reaction was Oh get rid of the dog Oh get rid of the cats.
> 
> Understand that I just lost a cat and I am not ready to even THINK about losing any other of my animals.
> 
> Im sorry if I lashed out on anyone, Im still just very upset, and everyone seems fine, and I can only hope they stay that way.


I don't think I ever mentioned you 'need' to 'get rid of dog or cats'...it IS ultimately your decision, not mine; would I rehome the dog? possibly...but that is me. 

And I agree with Chrissy...everyone is giving their opinions, but that doesn't mean they don't support you...it's just opinion based on experience with dogs and certain behaviors. 

Don't worry, things will be okay...just give yourself some time to heal!


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## Bextastic

Yes, that is exactly what my mom needs to, and I told her so. I told her she needs time and patience. The problem with my moms cat is that my mom pretty much made him go back to being feral - my mom won't spend time with him. He actually stayed at my house for a month and a half as a baby and I had him stepping on me, sleeping on me, snuggling with my other cats, I have pictures of him as a baby playing and frolicking and being happy out in the open. When I went to visit her after a month she had him locked in the laundry room becacuse he would scratch her precious furniture and carpets. I couldn't even touch him anymore. Now when she tries to catch him he wails like he's dying and has scratched both my parents seriously. I told her to spend a minimum of 4 - 5 hours a day with him or she couldn't own him. She did, for about two days, then gave up because results weren't instant. Now my dad wants to put the cat down because she says he's dangerous. Sigh. I would take him but I can't have more than two cats here, condo rules, and besides - Bex is the LAST thing he needs.


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## wvasko

Isn't kind of wierd, I never could understand why people do that to dogs or cats, if I've heard it once I've heard it 1000 times about how they had to get a dog for the kids and then dog is chained up outside or the cat that's not allowed in the house, or the the dog has to be free outside. Is it some kind of wierd status symbol that I don't understand. To say nothing of the basement, garage only dogs. I just don't understand. Sorry for short vent.


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## SMoore

Jen-

I read most of this post although i'm at work so I skimmed through some of it but first off I want to say how sorry I am to hear that you had to walk into such a horrid scene. I can't imagine how that would feel and I hope you don't beat yourself up over it. Things like this DO happen and it is unfortunate.

I will give my advice though, others have suggested finding a new home for Chance but from your posts since day 1 you seem to love him to pieces as though he's an extension of you, he's part of you and i'm sure that is not possible.

I would consider starting completely over with training, act as though Chance knows NOTHING and go through everything. I would also suggest meeting with a very experienced animal behaviorist, they can pick up on things just by watching and being around the dog that you may not have even thought of.

When you are gone crate Chance, no exceptions to this rule. A crate is not a punishment, it's for safety for his safety, and the cats. It's not just safety because of that incident, i like keeping my animals crated in case of any sort of emergency, it's so easy for anything to happen when animals are not confined.

I take Pandora out for a run before work, crate her, come home for lunch and play a game of fetch in the backyard, return to work for 3 more hours come home and then take her out to this fenced in school yard for her to run around in. I am 110% sure she would never hurt my cats or chew up anything or have an accident but she still stays in a crate when I can't be there. 

I don't think Chance is too much for you, but you might reconsider the training approach. It may very well be that you just need some more training which is never a bad thing. I am constantly trying to learn as much as I can from various forums, books, websites, etc... As a German Shepherd owner you never stop learning and neither does your dog. They are so intelligent and can pick up on anything, anytime you are around Chance you are teaching him SOMETHING.

Again I am so sorry about Miss Kitty!


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## melgrj7

Thanks, we (I) was hoping it would make him get used to us, but in a way he felt safe. It worked for him. It took my awhile though to convince my parents to put a huge crate in their living room for a cat! 



wvasko said:


> Melgrj7
> An excellent common sense answer to your cat's problem. You got the program setup so he actually had to be there and with good care and your help he desensitized himself. The cat boxes in crate absolutely was a stunning idea. Will this work with all cats? I don't know, but it worked with yours and it's another option out there for others to try.


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## heidiann

Oh no, I'm SO sorry about Miss Kitty! Poor thing put up a fight too!

I have no advice for you, just wanted to jump in and say that I'm sorry you're in this situation. 

I don't know what I'd do if it were me and my animals. No one can say what they'd do unless they are in the same situation with the same animals. 

I hope you can figure it all out.


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## Scout

I had to comment on the "cat room" thing.

My cats live in a room when we are not home. They are troublemakers and it is really for their own safety (at least right now...I'm hoping that they will be able to have free roam of the house shortly). Isn't this like crating a dog when you aren't home? They have food, water, litter, toys, scratching posts, each other...and I know they are safe in there and can't get into trouble, and they are let out as soon as I get home from work.


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## Bextastic

Scout said:


> I had to comment on the "cat room" thing.
> 
> My cats live in a room when we are not home. They are troublemakers and it is really for their own safety (at least right now...I'm hoping that they will be able to have free roam of the house shortly). Isn't this like crating a dog when you aren't home? They have food, water, litter, toys, scratching posts, each other...and I know they are safe in there and can't get into trouble, and they are let out as soon as I get home from work.


Yes but if keeping them in a room while you are out is like crating a dog while you are out, then keeping them in a room full time is like keeping your dog in a crate full time. Would you do that?


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## 4dogs3cats

SMoore said:


> I don't think Chance is too much for you, but you might reconsider the training approach. It may very well be that you just need some more training which is never a bad thing. I am constantly trying to learn as much as I can from various forums, books, websites, etc... As a German Shepherd owner you never stop learning and neither does your dog. They are so intelligent and can pick up on anything, anytime you are around Chance you are teaching him SOMETHING.
> 
> Again I am so sorry about Miss Kitty!


Thank you. I didn't quote all of your reply for space reasons, but I did read it all, and I think starting over with him and him being on a rigorous training schedule is best for him.



Love's_Sophie said:


> I don't think I ever mentioned you 'need' to 'get rid of dog or cats'...it IS ultimately your decision, not mine; would I rehome the dog? possibly...but that is me.
> 
> And I agree with Chrissy...everyone is giving their opinions, but that doesn't mean they don't support you...it's just opinion based on experience with dogs and certain behaviors.
> 
> Don't worry, things will be okay...just give yourself some time to heal!


I know, and I am sorry if I came off mean. I was soooo stressed, and I personally felt semi-attacked but I am sure it was just my emotions going haywire



Elana55 said:


> From EVERYTHING you have told on these forums, Chance is not unstable. He may be unsocialized due to the parvo but he IS NOT UNSTABLE.
> 
> HE IS UNTRAINED. This means he is inconsistant and/or not instantaneous in his response to commands (like the recall when he chased the little girl.. and that too could have escalated to biting). He did come to you, but he chased her first. Even tho he slipped his collar he should not ahve left you. Fact is, he should not even have attempted to slip his collar and the presence of the leash should make no difference. That is where you need to go with this dog.
> 
> When a dog is given a command, the object is the dog is not to cease doing that command until you either give another command or release the dog. The minute the dog is released he should also turn and look at you not go willy nilly running off saying "wee wee I am freee."
> 
> I am sorry this happened to you. I know you are raw from it.
> 
> I have a few rooms in my house that are "dog free" too and the room you have for this purpose is fine. The barrier into it was insufficient and it would be an assumption at this point that this has already been replaced so the room is now Dog Proof.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 100% agree.
> 
> Again, I am sorry it happened.


Yeah- we'll get there. I'm not giving him up, and my cats are staying too. We'll make it work. Hes going into training next month (when I can afford it)



heidiann said:


> Oh no, I'm SO sorry about Miss Kitty! Poor thing put up a fight too!
> 
> I have no advice for you, just wanted to jump in and say that I'm sorry you're in this situation.
> 
> I don't know what I'd do if it were me and my animals. No one can say what they'd do unless they are in the same situation with the same animals.
> 
> I hope you can figure it all out.


Thank you for your kind words



Bextastic said:


> Yes but if keeping them in a room while you are out is like crating a dog while you are out, then keeping them in a room full time is like keeping your dog in a crate full time. Would you do that?


I think thats where people made the misconception. The room is a 12X12 bedroom that has toys litter, food, cat houses, and a table in front of the window that they sat by. She went from hiding in the closet all the time, where SHE felt safe, and I would go in there daily to play with her and love on her, to coming out of the closet and playing in the room, but hiding when she saw the dogs, to actually just hanging out in the room even if she did see the dogs. I was letting her get used to things. We got her in Sept of 07, then moved to an apartment in Feb 08, then moved to this house in May.... Thats a lot to adjust to. I was working with her the best way I knew how, and I thought I was seeing some improvements. Unfortunately, it seems as if I made her confidant in the room thinking the dogs couldnt get to her, and when Chance did get to her, her world fell apart.

The other 2 cats come and go in the cat room at will. I have the baby gate elevated off the ground so the cats can walk right under, and I have done extensive work with Chance in the last few days to make sure he knows the room is off limits. I tested my work too, I took the gate down, and Kody and Chance sat in front of the open door, neither one of them budged. I turned my back and played with Mittens, and they both simply laid down by the door. Neither one came in the room. But the cats like going in there to play, and their food and water and litter is in there, along with cat houses for them. They are not at all scared to come out, and are out of the room most of the day, however, when they play with each OTHER, they usually go in there.

Just so everyone knows too, I have kept an eye on Chance for the last few days, and he has been exactly the same with the cats, if not better. Like I mentioned before, I think that maybe now that she is gone he feels some peace from the constant wondering where she is. He licked the cats before, and when Mittens was sitting on my lap, Chance gently put his face near Mittens, and Mittens licked his nose. It was refreshing to see that even though he had a terrible relationship with Miss Kitty, his relationship with my other cats is strong.

Thank you all so much for your kind words, it still hurts a lot when I look at pictures of her. But I know we will get through this, and it is a lesson learned. Sadly at her expense, but it is true, you really DO live and learn.


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## Bextastic

4dogs3cats said:


> I have done extensive work with Chance in the last few days to make sure he knows the room is off limits.


If you want an extra precaution to keep him out of the cats personal space, Invisible Fence makes a device that can zone off a room as off limits. You put the device in the room and select the range, and it works just like Invisible Fence - the dog wears a collar that warns them with a tone if they get too close, then gives them a vibrating correction if they ignore the tone. Its a good way to make sure he doesn't try to sneak in there if your back is turned. They will have people come over and train your dog with the equipment and set everything up for you. It might give you a little more peace of mind that he won't go back in there.


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## 4dogs3cats

Bextastic said:


> If you want an extra precaution to keep him out of the cats personal space, Invisible Fence makes a device that can zone off a room as off limits. You put the device in the room and select the range, and it works just like Invisible Fence - the dog wears a collar that warns them with a tone if they get too close, then gives them a vibrating correction if they ignore the tone. Its a good way to make sure he doesn't try to sneak in there if your back is turned. They will have people come over and train your dog with the equipment and set everything up for you. It might give you a little more peace of mind that he won't go back in there.


Interesting. The one thing though, is that even after he did this to Miss Kitty, as crazy as you may all think I am for saying this, I know (and by sayign know I know I am not positive, but I know enough) that he wont do this to my other cats.

he loves them. He has always loved them. AND if he DID get in there, there was enough of a stuggle with MK that I know he didnt just grab her. My other 2 cats are not scared to leave that room. They could EASILY get away from him and get up on a high counter. She was too terrified of her own shadow, you know?


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## Elana55

4dogs3cats said:


> Yeah- we'll get there. I'm not giving him up, and my cats are staying too. We'll make it work. Hes going into training next month (when I can afford it).



Don't wait until next month for formal school. Invoke NILIF NOW. You can do this. You have shown you can train a dog. Just do it. EVERY day. ALL the time. For EVERYTHING. if he breaks a command, no matter what it is, correct the break by putting him back in the command exactly where he borke it. Chance needs military school from now on until he is 100% reliable. 

BTW While he was nto socialized well as a pup, he did go to Dog Day care and he does know how to act around other dogs. His leash aggression is more need for strict training. 

Doing this will make it much much easier at dog school.

By military school, I do not mean abusive and by correction I mean no yelling, hitting yanking etc. (I know you know this Jen, but I am saying this for the benefit of the casual reader of this thread). 



4dogs3cats said:


> ...but it is true, you really DO live and learn.


Yeah.. sorry if I came off so tough. I just really hate to see this sort of thing happen and have gone to great lengths to prevent it in my home. Cats are highly intelligent and sensitive animals and I have handled and dealt with them extensively for years. Your story really hit a nerve in me. 

*Please please please do not believe Chance would not ever hurt the other cats *because he 'loves' them. He would do it, as would Atka, if something strange were to happen to change the balance.. if only for a moment... Chance walking up to the cat and a sudden loud noise spooking the cat could start it. Something unforeseen. NEVER drop your vigilance again where dogs and cats mix. I don't. And that is thru a few dogs of various mixes and breeds. 

Remember, as much as you love him, Chance is still a dog and will do what dogs will do.. Just as cats will do what cats will do.


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## 4dogs3cats

Elana55 said:


> Don't wait until next month for formal school. Invoke NILIF NOW. You can do this. You have shown you can train a dog. Just do it. EVERY day. ALL the time. For EVERYTHING. if he breaks a command, no matter what it is, correct the break by putting him back in the command exactly where he borke it. Chance needs military school from now on until he is 100% reliable.
> 
> BTW While he was nto socialized well as a pup, he did go to Dog Day care and he does know how to act around other dogs. His leash aggression is more need for strict training.
> 
> Doing this will make it much much easier at dog school.
> 
> By military school, I do not mean abusive and by correction I mean no yelling, hitting yanking etc. (I know you know this Jen, but I am saying this for the benefit of the casual reader of this thread).
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah.. sorry if I came off so tough. I just really hate to see this sort of thing happen and have gone to great lengths to prevent it in my home. Cats are highly intelligent and sensitive animals and I have handled and dealt with them extensively for years. Your story really hit a nerve in me.
> 
> *Please please please do not believe Chance would not ever hurt the other cats *because he 'loves' them. He would do it, as would Atka, if something strange were to happen to change the balance.. if only for a moment... Chance walking up to the cat and a sudden loud noise spooking the cat could start it. Something unforeseen. NEVER drop your vigilance again where dogs and cats mix. I don't. And that is thru a few dogs of various mixes and breeds.
> 
> Remember, as much as you love him, Chance is still a dog and will do what dogs will do.. Just as cats will do what cats will do.


No that I know. What I meant to imply is that he has always had a better relationship with these 2 cats and nothing has changed. The way you feel with atka and your cats. I know you cant trust her 100% but you feel safe with them around each other. I dont let the past issue with MK change how I view him and my 2 current cats.

He has had NILIF for a while now. He MUST sit before I put his food down. He MUST sit before he goes in his crate. HE MUST lay down in his crate before I hand him his kong. He is catching on, I am really seeing how intuitive this breed is.


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## Elana55

4dogs3cats said:


> He has had NILIF for a while now. He MUST sit before I put his food down. He MUST sit before he goes in his crate. HE MUST lay down in his crate before I hand him his kong. He is catching on, I am really seeing how intuitive this breed is.


Build on this. At night, when watching TV and hanging out, work at STAY. Work on sending him to 'his spot" and 'stay' until released.

IOW's he MUST do something for ANYTHING he wants and EVERYTHING, _including touching noses with ANY other animals or people, Kody, Bailey, Cats, Eric or you._ If I could make the dog do something to get permission to BREATHE I would... LOL

Chance must sit and wait to get in the car, go out a door, leave his crate, go in his crate, etc etc. He must sit every time you stop and he is at heel, he must sit straight, not at an anngle. He must lie down on command no matter what.. etc etc. It is a LOT of work.. Constant Vigilance.. and if you cannot be vigilant, the dog needs to be in his crate. HUGE job. 

Truly, truly NOTHING in life is FREE. While there are those who woud not invoke such rules with a dog, remember, rules can always be relaxed later. At this point, he needs military school.. where you pay attention to the trainer and you do it no matter what.. no matter where. 

As I used to say, do something for you for everything they want. Do that something for you and do it until you tell them not to.. either by giving a new command or a release.. _the dog is to wait for your command, NO THINKING ON THEIR OWN_ at this point. I know that may sound like "WTF? Not letting the dog do any independent thinking?" Honest.. once I got that in my head.. and ceased to make a single excuse for the dog (oh she was just looking,k interested, bored etc.) I had a dog that was excellant to be around, any time and anywhere. 

BTW the reason for this strict structure is to make you a better and more intuitive dog trainer as well as molding your dog into something anyone would love to be around. 

You won't EVER regret it... tho YOU must be dedicated and 100% consistant.


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## 4dogs3cats

That I plan on. I figure the more strict I am at first, the quicker it will work. NILIF is something that was never utilized in this house, and when I discovered it, I felt like the puppet master

All 3 dogs must sit while I am scooping their food into their bowls. (I use a half cup scoop, bailey gets one scoop, kody gets 2, and chance gets between 5 or 6, so he must sit the longest  )

All 3 dogs must STAY sitting while I place the food bowl on the floor, and can ONLY start eating once i say "okay" (Kody is excellent at this, Bailey is wayy too hyperactively excited for her own good, but we are getting there lol, but she has never caused me any problems, most of my focus is going towards chance, cuz he thinks he needs to eat it AS I am scooping it. One time he stuck his head in the bucket I was scooping from.)

I am going to randomly start making them sit when i feel like it, and lay down when i feel like it. Chance already has a "spot" Its his bed next to the TV, all 3 dogs lay in their beds by the tv when we are sitting in the living room. All I have to do is point to his bed and say "lay down" and off he goes to take a nap.

I wish you guys could see that Chance is really a good dog. He has his issues, and its probably my fault because I play the "Well he had parvo" card too often. That card got him out of chewing the couch(times two,) 3 phone chargers, a plastic crate, the plastic flooring to the metal crate(I havent uploaded pics yet, by tomorrow youll see,) a cell phone, 5-10 plastic cups from the sink, an x-box 360 wireless controller, and probably other things I have forgotten or placed in the back of my mind out of embarassment.

Look, he CAN be a good boy! Sit-stay by the mountain with no one holding the leash and people walking by?!?!









But mom I dont WANT a big boy bed..









I wuvva my brudder


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