# Protective Agression towards strangers, (Border Collie in the 'red zone')



## MaximumRide (Apr 29, 2011)

Hello! This is my first thread, I have a 1 and a half year old Border Collie, who is agressive towards strangers who approach or just walk by, I go with my cousins to Starbucks every Tuesday, I take Max, people always want to pet him, when they try, he tries to snap at them and lunge, he loves everyone once he gets used to them, but he hates strangers, I've had him since he was 5 1/2 weeks old, so I know he's not abused. He's not scared, he's just too darn aggressive, and it worries me that if he bites someone I'll have to put him down, he's got too much potential, and hes so young. His focus almost _*CANNOT*_ be broken, so, treats and toys, are a no go, plus thats REWARDING him. I try to keep him in his calm-assertive state, nothing works, PLEASE I need help! 
Melissa.


----------



## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I think if you found the right toy it would work, Jo my young one & even the old dog will come off a squirrel for a squeaky toy. What kind of treats have you tried? For this kind of thing u need something really yummy like cu up hot dog or those cheese cubes you can get at WalMart.

That's all I have lol, I don't have an outwardly aggressive dog persay, just one that isn't very social lol. So I'm careful not to put her in situations where she thinks she has to defend herself.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Dear OP
How wonderful that you want to take your dog everywhere. He's quite luckly. I know plenty of dogs who never get to go anywhere.

Since your dog hasn't actually bitten anyone, he is an excellent prospect for rehbilitation. But you have to stay "below threshold" Once folks are trying to touch him, you are above threshold and training will be difficult -as you already know.

If you start below threshold, you dog might be willing to take treats or get excited about toys. And as DD said, you are going to have to be creative in finding what appeals to your dog. My nervous dog loves dehydrated meat at home, but turns her nose up at it outside the house. But she can't resist canned sardines when we are out on nature trails.

...
"red zone", "calm-asertive" - these sound like TV buzzwords. Watching TV training shows is certainly fine, but please understand that TV is for entertainment. At least one TV show has flashing words at the bottom of the screen that says "do not try this at home" Additionally, at least one TV trainer says over and over again that he is NOT a trainer, is NOT a behaviorist and has NOT studied dogs.

I hope you are not leash yanking or alpha rolling the dog as this can make his feelings about other humans much much worse.

I suggest reading the work of some experienced behaviorists.
A great book for your dog is "Scardey Dog" by Ali Brown. It has mostly dog-dog applications but you can just replace "dog" with "humans" as you read. http://amzn.to/hLcuOf

Back to "below threshold". You will need to start in a quiet place with a human whom your dog already knows and treat you dog for letting the human approach. This is just the beginning. 
You are going to have to set up a bunch of controlled scenarious - setting your dog up for success each and every time.

Unfortunately, taking your dog to Starbucks at this point is setting your dog up for failure. 
Until you dog is better, strangers should not be allowed to pet your dog.

My own personal experience:
Many many people do not know how to approach dogs. They stand over them, they stick their hands in the dog's face, they touch your dog without permission, etc..
So it's going to be extremely difficult to keep you dog below threshold in these types of places.

To give you dog some time to destress, I suggest long walks on quiet nature trails or or city streets very early in the morning or late at night. 
I'm not saying avoid people altogether. I'm saying set up controlled scenerios with lots of different people and slowly work you way back up to crowded places. This could take several months.

One other thing to be aware of is your state of mind, your actions. Do you hold your leash tightly when strangers are near? This could contribute to your dog's attitude.

What you said about "rewards" -- Counter conditioning is using classical conditioning. 
Classical conditioning is not rewarding.
Rewarding a dog is more operant conditioning. 
When operant and classical conditioning collid, classical conditioning takes over. Plus you will be staying below threshold so you won't be rewarding the lunging/snapping.

I'v included a video below on counter conditioning and desensitization. Everything above and in the the video is more of a condensed version of CC&D. I suggest reading some good books on the subject for more details and exercises. 

You should also consult a behaviorist. But not one who uses leash pops or other punishments after the fact. One who understands and utilizes CC&D; one who understands classical and oprant conditioning.

I might mention more stuff later. I have an appointment to get to.
See the video below - remember, replace "other dogs" with "other humans"


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Hi,
First off, please adjust your font, it's way too small for us old farts to read. 

Secondly. Your dog should not be going to a public place like starbucks where he is put so far over threshold. You put him and others at risk here. The good thing is he has not bitten anyone, this is not an accident, if a dog truly intends to use teeth they will..he is telling these people to back off because he is scared to death of them. YOU need to not put him in the position to be scared and feel the need to defend himself. Ninety percent of "unprovoked" aggression is based in fear, so don't assume he's not fearful. He's also a border collie..they are bred to be "space sensitive" and are very sensitive to body language and proximity. Do NOT allow strangers to pet your dog, then he won't need to defend himself or practice distancing behaviours. 

You got him very young so you know he's not been abused..but surprise, fear aggression does not require abuse or terrible events to occur, in fact taking him home with you in the middle of his first fear period may have set him back, it's hard to say. Sometimes it's lack of positive, safe socialization as a pup, sometimes it's genetic, and sometimes it's physical health issues or neurochemical imbalances or combinations of all of the above. What sort of socialization did you do when he was young? What sort of training and mental/physical exercise does he get? 

And yes, Puddin's is right. This is about working under threshold. A dog that is over threshold cannot think and can only focus on fight or flight, so nothing you do at that point in the way of corrections or training is going to have much effect. A dog must be able to LEARN and cannot learn when that stressed, they also won't take food..so it's not likely that you dog doesn't like treats (food is necessary to live) but that he's so close to the trigger that food is the last thing on his mind..instead, escape or defense is. 

For some good info check out the fearful dog threads here on DF and also take a look at www.fearfuldogs.com


----------



## MaximumRide (Apr 29, 2011)

Hello, I'm sorry about my font! 

I know that my dog isn't scared, you can tell a difference, he doesn't cower down, he goes forward, I can be out riding a four wheeler and we can pass someone and he'll turn and go after them. He's not afraid. 

I've learned everything I know from Cesar Millan. I've had dogs since I was born, I've had a Border Collie before, she was protective, but she let people pet her (she was abused. I got her when she was 2). I pull on the leash, I don't yank. I tug firmly but never actually fully _yank_ on the leash, I touch him firmly on his neck to snap him out of it. It works, but often I don't have time to do that, I am defiantly going to continue training, and try harder to prevent the aggression before it happens.

I live in the woods (seriously.) So it's safe to just let him outside, (Not a good choice a lot of the time, We have a lake...) but I watch him. He is extremely active, I take him for a walk through the neighborhood, I take him out into our yard and play frisbee and fetch, I try to keep working with his tricks, he knows how to sit, and I never had to teach him stay, he can lie down, roll over, shake, high five, wave, beg, (he also waves while begging) find it (meaning bring the frisbee, ball, toy, pinecone..), spin, working on play dead. Right paw, Left paw, and he used to know crawl. He's super smart, he can be moving away from a spot or following me, I can stop and point to a spot and say "go back.." and he'll back up to that spot, or if I'm eating, he comes into the dining room, I can say "back up a step." and he'll do it.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

MaximumRide said:


> I know that my dog isn't scared, you can tell a difference, he doesn't cower down, he goes forward, I can be out riding a four wheeler and we can pass someone and he'll turn and go after them. He's not afraid.
> 
> I've learned everything I know from Cesar Millan.


As Cesar Millan would tell you, even aggression is a learned response. A dog is not aggressive just because, it's a result of something in the environment, and typically, unless you have a serial killer dog, "aggressive" behavior is centered around fear. It's a display to keep danger at bay. If you try to touch him firmly on the neck, you teach him to associate pain with what he's scared of, therefore increasing his aggressive displays. If you go down the correction route, you will be forced to use some severe techniques to achieve "calm submissiveness", which really is just the dog being forced to give up. It's the same thing as someone torturing you until you answer their questions. Do you really want to go that route?


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

MaximumRide said:


> Hello! This is my first thread, I have a 1 and a half year old Border Collie, who is agressive towards strangers who approach or just walk by, I go with my cousins to Starbucks every Tuesday, I take Max, people always want to pet him, when they try, he tries to snap at them and lunge, he loves everyone once he gets used to them, but he hates strangers, I've had him since he was 5 1/2 weeks old, so I know he's not abused. He's not scared, he's just too darn aggressive, and it worries me that if he bites someone I'll have to put him down, he's got too much potential, and hes so young. His focus almost _*CANNOT*_ be broken, so, treats and toys, are a no go, plus thats REWARDING him. I try to keep him in his calm-assertive state, nothing works, PLEASE I need help!
> Melissa.


Honestly, forget the Dog Whisperer stuff and find a good trainer who works with behavior issues. And in the meantime, until someone who can see and evaluate him, and offer a behavior modification plan, please do not take him to public places and allow strangers to interact with him. If he's unable to break his focus, and unable to respond to food and toys, that tells me he is way over threshold and you need to try working with him at a MUCH greater distance from his triggers. Everytime he snaps and lunges, and gets someone to back off, he's learning that behavior makes undesired interaction go away. Even if he only startles someone, and they trip trying to back off and break something, you will likely get sued and may lose your dog. It's your job to protect him from people and protect people from him while you do a CONTROLLED socialization plan (under the guidance of an expert) with people selected to do what you need them to do, who will follow directions. Address this now, before he gets any older. Part of your problem may be that you got him at 5.5 weeks. That's way too young, and a puppy that young missed out on a lot of early socialization with mom and litter mates. One also has to wonder if the breeder had the knowledge to breed good temperament, if they would let their puppies go that young.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Please don't assume that you can read a dog's body language correctly. I have learned that what we THINK a dog's body language is telling us can be very wrong sometimes. LOTS of scared dogs act out aggressively BECAUSE they're scared.

I have a reactive dog. He is scared of other dogs when he's leashed, and so he lunges and growls and shows his teeth. But, the reason he acts aggressive is because he's scared. It's kind of like "I'll get you because I'm scared you'll get me."

As for Cesar, the nicest way to put it is, lots of the "dominant" and "aggressive" theories he uses are outdated, and actually proven to be false. His methods may work, but fear or threats often do work, just not in the best way.

What people are saying here, is your dog is afraid when people get too close, when they get inside his "safety zone". So, the only time you can really "reach" your dog and get him to focus is BEFORE the people get into his "safety zone". The other term people are using here is "under the threshold". If your dog has already reacted, that means he's beyond his threshold, and getting him to focus back on you is extremely hard because he has adrenaline and stress hormones flooding his body.

Maybe Starbucks isn't the right place to start "conditioning" him to not react in a negative way to people. Simply put, start in an area where there are people, but they don't have to pass right by.


----------



## MaximumRide (Apr 29, 2011)

He's not scared OF the person, hes scared the person is going to hurt, one of us, he's not afraid that he's going to get hurt. So yes, its a fear, but not that he is going to get hurt, I can read my dog. I know what he's doing, but he doesn't understand what I want, I'm trying to show him.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

MaximumRide said:


> He's not scared OF the person, hes scared the person is going to hurt, one of us, he's not afraid that he's going to get hurt. So yes, its a fear, but not that he is going to get hurt, I can read my dog. I know what he's doing, but he doesn't understand what I want, I'm trying to show him.


Well, you've gotten several posts full of good advice.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

MaximumRide said:


> He's not scared OF the person, hes scared the person is going to hurt, one of us, he's not afraid that he's going to get hurt. So yes, its a fear, but not that he is going to get hurt, I can read my dog. I know what he's doing, but he doesn't understand what I want, I'm trying to show him.


Just as we learn from Cesar Millan and other people experienced in dog behavior, it never helps to humanize our dogs. When we humanize we end up misinterpreting behavior and come up with incorrect strategies. 

What you describe there is a humanized interpretation of your dog's behavior - "he's scared the person is going to hurt one of us", "he doesn't understand what I want". As Millan says, dogs do not reason, they just react. You are assuming your dog's behavior is based on rational thought. Dog behaviorists do not try to reason with dogs, they teach a different response to stimuli. Your job is to focus on coming up with the best strategy to teach your dog a different response to people approaching with their hands. Projecting calm assertive energy will not solve all of your issues because energy is not the primary issue, your dogs response is the primary issue.


----------



## MaximumRide (Apr 29, 2011)

Alright, lets put this in a dogs.. No.. Border Collies, point of view, there's what he's protecting, his pack, or his flock, and a strange person, animal, or something, he's gonna do what he was bred for, protect, to make them go away, I need someway for him to not do that ALL the time, I take him walking, and I need that occasionally, he's my protector.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I agree. And, really, regardless of WHAT you think he's afraid of, he ISN'T responding to you WHEN he's afraid. You've been given advice about getting him a bit farther from the scary situation, or working "under his threshold" or keeping other people outside his current "safety zone". 

None of the people giving this type of advice are trying to say your dog is a scaredy cat and needs to be kept away from people permanently. What we're saying is, he needs to be more on the "calm" side in order for you to actually be able to work with this problem. If you keep him right there, where he feels threatened, or feels protective, or however you want to describe it, he will likely never be able to listen or focus on you, so that you CAN train him what you want instead.
If you keep him where he feels safe, you can get his focus on you, work with him, build his confidence up, and gradually be able to shrink his "safety zone" so that he feels comfortable being closer to other people.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I know that my dog isn't scared, you can tell a difference, he doesn't cower down


A lack of cowering does not indicate that the dog is not scared.



> He's not scared OF the person, hes scared the person is going to hurt, one of us


I sincerely doubt that, and even if that's the case, your dog should not be taking on the matter himself.



> What you describe there is a humanized interpretation of your dog's behavior - "he's scared the person is going to hurt one of us", "he doesn't understand what I want". As Millan says, dogs do not reason, they just react.


Quoted for truth.

BC's are not a breed that was bred for protection. They were bred for moving sheep. What your dog is doing is, IMO, not breed appropriate behavior.

You've gotten a lot of good advice....the question is will you follow it?


----------



## MaximumRide (Apr 29, 2011)

I have done MUCH research on the breed, my dad has been around border collies for a long time, I've had two, they are bred for, herding, and protecting sheep when the shepherd isn't around


----------



## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

If this happens and you tell the dog to stop and the dog does not stop, the dog is out of control. To correct a reactive dog, choke the dog out calmly. Do not bang on the dog with multiple corrections. Just calmly pick the dog up by a (nylon not chain) choke collar until the dog calms down. Your goal is to teach the dog that when you end an inappropriate reaction, it really ends. The wrong thing to do would be "normal" collar corrections by popping the leash. That will make the dog hectic. Rather than difussing the dog's reaction, that would reinforce for the dog that whatever stimulus that set it off really is worthy of a reaction. This is the type of collar you need: http://leerburg.com/746.htm You can get it from lots of stores. I'm not trying to sell Leerburg, but the video on that product page does show the correct use. Also, the collar shouldn't be called "dominant dog collar" because this has nothing to do with dominance, but fear reactivity.

The root cause of the problem is lack of socialization. But in order to socialize and do the counter conditioning and desensitization, you first have to manage/control the problem. That's what my advice is for. Once you can manage the dog, then go do your socialization and teach the dog that this stuff it explodes on is normal and to chill out.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Eh, breed isn't really a big deal. Again, like Millan says, treat your dog in order of 1) animal 2) dog and 3) breed. Explaining behavior using breed is like saying, "He should be good at math, he's Asian" or "This guy has to be a good basketball player, he's African American". If you learn to train your dog using animal learning, you're guaranteed to speak his language.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

So you say the dog is not afraid. That he protecting you. Then read "Mine!" by Jean Donaldson. It is a book on resource guarding: http://amzn.to/eeu4sR

..
Let's say that you are correct in that the dog isn't afraid and he is protecting when he acts out. You STILL need to start working below threshold. Don't wait until the dog is "in the zone." Set the dog up for success, not failure.

Any kind of leash corrections is highly inappropriate, scary, not proper training, and in a lot of situations will make the dog worse. Here is where classical conditioning comes into play again. From the dog's point of view: I see a strange person, I get a painful jab or a painful choke - this person causes pain, I need to scare this person away so I won't feel pain again.
..
I love most of the responses here - especialy cracker's. Great info.

But you don't have to believe a bunch of anonymous people on the internet. Just get some books written by experienced behaviorists. Cesar says this over and over again - he is not a trainer, he is not a behaviorist, he has not studied dogs.

Here are some people who have decades of experience using positive methods to work with dogs who are way worse than yours.
Ian Dunbar http://amzn.to/ku0RfW
Patricia McConnell http://amzn.to/fp9OMn
Jean Donaldson http://amzn.to/hUgRBH
Karen Pryor http://amzn.to/m5faSk

Or just hire a professional. But make sure you check him/her out thoroughly. Anyone can call themselves a trainer. Any trainer who uses yanks, pokes, or worse has not studied classical/operant conditioning.

Oh, you mentioned that you want the dog to protect you some of time but not all of the time. Most experts will tell you that this is unrealistic and dangerous. Dogs make great alarms (barking at strange noises) this should be the best that you should hope for.

But if you really want a "protection" dog then you need to protect the public from your dog (as someone else mentioned). He can never ever be off leash and you can't take him to starbucks or petsmart etc.. You need a secure, properly fitted martingale to make sure he never slips his buckle collar.



MaximumRide said:


> I have done MUCH research on the breed, my dad has been around border collies for a long time, I've had two, they are bred for, herding, and protecting sheep when the shepherd isn't around


Well actually, Great Pyrenese and the like are protectors and Border Collies are herders.

Added: 
Please please don't hang your dog until he nearly passes out. People using these methods have blinded dogs(lack of oxygen to the brain). No it doesn't happen all the time, everytime, but there is never ever a reason to hang your dog . 

For anyone who thinks that this is proper training method, I suggest reading
Bones Would Rain from the Sky http://amzn.to/huS6ik


----------



## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

If you know how to understand your dog so well, why don't you know how to fix the problem?

The first step to fixing this is to admit there's a problem that you don't entirely understand.

It doesn't make you a bad dog owner, it makes you a human just like the rest of us.

You've recieved a lot of good advice, but unless you're willing to listen, nothing is going to help.


----------



## Pynzie (Jan 15, 2010)

Bart said:


> To correct a reactive dog, choke the dog out calmly. Do not bang on the dog with multiple corrections. Just calmly pick the dog up by a (nylon not chain) choke collar until the dog calms down.


Do NOT do this. Do not choke your dog out or hang him from a choke collar...or any collar for that matter. I don't even know what else to say about this suggestion except that is one of the craziest things I have ever heard. That's even worse than suggesting an alpha roll!


----------



## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Pynzie said:


> Do NOT do this. Do not choke your dog out or hang him from a choke collar...or any collar for that matter. I don't even know what else to say about this suggestion except that is one of the craziest things I have ever heard. That's even worse than suggesting an alpha roll!


Holy carp, I just saw that post... who would DO that to a dog??? That's terrible!


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Yeah, I hope the OP would not even take that suggestion seriously.

There are lots of resources out there that help us interpret dog body language and behavior. As I said before, it's not all common sense, and what we THINK it means isn't always what it DOES mean. Dogs are NOT human.

And, as Puddin' says, regardless of WHY you think he's acting the way he's acting, you CAN'T change his behavior when he's beyond his threshold, you still have to catch him when he's "reachable", before he goes into "the red zone" or whatever you're calling it.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

MaximumRide said:


> Hello! This is my first thread, I have a 1 and a half year old Border Collie, who is agressive towards strangers who approach or just walk by, I go with my cousins to Starbucks every Tuesday, I take Max, *people always want to pet him, when they try, he tries to snap at them and lunge, *he loves everyone once he gets used to them, but he hates strangers, I've had him since he was 5 1/2 weeks old, so I know he's not abused. He's not scared, he's just too darn aggressive, and it worries me that if he bites someone I'll have to put him down, he's got too much potential, and hes so young. His focus almost _*CANNOT*_ be broken, so, treats and toys, are a no go, plus thats REWARDING him. I try to keep him in his calm-assertive state, nothing works, PLEASE I need help!
> Melissa.


Border collies are not protectors of the sheep, they are movers of the sheep...LGD's are for protection. Border collies have extremely large space bubbles and a high degree of movement sensitivity, this often contributes to reactivity and lunging. The lunging and snapping is distancing behaviour and relates to people being too close, or moving too fast for his COMFORT ie he is uncomfortable with it and is therefore unsure or fearful. He does not have to be a cowering mess to be fearful. Dog body language is much more subtle in many cases than that. Movement (bikes, runners, people walking by fast) is yet another thing that triggers discomfort AND can be exacerbated by the herding instinct in dogs.

You go right ahead and believe that calm assertiveness will get your problem fixed, but I can practically guarantee it won't. You have a real learning curve to get through with this..learning about classical conditioning, thresholds, prevention and management and teaching your dog better coping skills through better training. And please do not take Bart's advice to hang your dog, that is really really not a good idea and should NOT have been recommended as a safe way to deal with this behaviour. 

By the way, using food or toys to distract or dissuade the dog TIMED CORRECTLY does not "reward" the dog for the behaviour..you are preventing the behaviour from happening...but then I don't know if I want to spend the next twenty minutes advising someone who is not ready to listen or learn. So that's all I'll say for now.


----------



## qingcong (Oct 26, 2009)

Cracker said:


> but then I don't know if I want to spend the next twenty minutes advising someone who is not ready to listen or learn. So that's all I'll say for now.


Similar to how dogs supposedly don't "listen" to us, I think humans exhibit the same behavior. It's not that they don't listen, it's that what we do isn't reaching the core of what they value. Just as we want to work with dogs to keep them under threshold and gradually change their behavior over time, I believe humans deserve the same treatment. We cannot expect someone to just say straight up, "Oh I'm so wrong, you're right, I give up everything I ever thought to be true now." The most we can do is plant a seed and hope to nurture it over time.


----------



## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I didn't mean it to be dismissive, that's why I wrote "for now"..but yes, I'm frustrated by the OP's not wanting to at least ask the why or the how beyond what she/he is interpreting the behaviour as. It's been a long day, sorry if it came across as cranky.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

qingcong said:


> The most we can do is plant a seed and hope to nurture it over time.














Cracker said:


> LGD's are for protection.


was gonna ask what LGD stood for. But looked it up instead. Interesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livestock_guardian_dog


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

MaximumRide said:


> Alright, lets put this in a dogs.. No.. Border Collies, point of view, there's what he's protecting, his pack, or his flock, and a strange person, animal, or something, he's gonna do what he was bred for, protect, to make them go away, I need someway for him to not do that ALL the time, I take him walking, and I need that occasionally, he's my protector.


Umn. No. Having worked with herding dogs for many years in both herding and non-herding situations, dogs really do "get" the difference between the human and the sheep. 
And BCs don't generally "protect" a flock. They move them around. LGDs protect a flock. Totally different behaviors. You are still making up what you think he is doing. And I think you may be basing it on what you want to believe rather than what the dog is doing. His motive doesn't actually matter as much as his behavior does, when it comes to fixing it. Lunging and snapping at people is not being a protector. It's being untrained and very badly (dangerously) behaved. I've had dogs act as a protector. They didn't lunge and snap. In fact, they didn't do much more than subtly move between me and what they perceived to be a threat.



Bart said:


> If this happens and you tell the dog to stop and the dog does not stop, the dog is out of control. To correct a reactive dog, choke the dog out calmly. Do not bang on the dog with multiple corrections. Just calmly pick the dog up by a (nylon not chain) choke collar until the dog calms down. Your goal is to teach the dog that when you end an inappropriate reaction, it really ends. The wrong thing to do would be "normal" collar corrections by popping the leash. That will make the dog hectic. Rather than difussing the dog's reaction, that would reinforce for the dog that whatever stimulus that set it off really is worthy of a reaction. This is the type of collar you need: http://leerburg.com/746.htm You can get it from lots of stores. I'm not trying to sell Leerburg, but the video on that product page does show the correct use. Also, the collar shouldn't be called "dominant dog collar" because this has nothing to do with dominance, but fear reactivity.
> 
> The root cause of the problem is lack of socialization. But in order to socialize and do the counter conditioning and desensitization, you first have to manage/control the problem. That's what my advice is for. Once you can manage the dog, then go do your socialization and teach the dog that this stuff it explodes on is normal and to chill out.


Please do not hang your dog. It will make him more reactive and more unstable.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

I can understand wanting a dog to protect you when you are out alone. But I will also say that just having a dog with you is a deterrent. The dog doesn't have to strike.

Or once you have the dog conditioned to be okay with folks you can teach the dog to bark on command. You can give the "bark" or "speak" command whenever you feel threatened. The stalker won't know that it's just a bark. The bark command can be something scary like "attack" but the dog doesn't really attack - just barks.

I think I read some details on this in "How to Speak Dog" by Stanley Coren. http://amzn.to/j6oxfM

Good luck[/SIZE].


----------



## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

My dog doesn't cower either, and he lunges forward at people, but hs definitely does it out of fear. We're constantly working on it and it does improve, but slowly, at best. Fear doesn't always look like fear. As Cesar Millan would say, your dog is insecure. Real aggression means your dog would lunge AND bite with intent to do damage. A fearful dog is trying to look aggressive to scare away an intruder, he might even snap, but usually is not intent on causing harm. You usually can tell the difference.


----------



## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Bart said:


> Just calmly pick the dog up by a (nylon not chain) choke collar


In other words: "string up your dog and hang/stangle him"



Bart said:


> until the dog calms down


In other words: "until your dog is so deprived of oxygen that he is gasping for air and cant' move"

Sigh


----------



## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

Ok wise people, exactly what are you going to do when a dog on your leash is attacking people? biting at them, snapping, lunging? There are some dogs with serious handler aggression and if you interfere with their attack, they will most defintely attack you, bite your hand, arm or even go for your throat. If you've never handled a dog like that, then just admit it and shut up. Don't tell me you're going to pull out a cookie and redirect either. Muzzles can help, but there are dogs that will knock you or anyone else out cold with a muzzle in no time. You have about 2 seconds to get the dog under control so it's not biting or attacking anyone including yourself. What do you do?


----------



## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Bart said:


> Ok wise people, exactly what are you going to do when a dog on your leash is attacking people? biting at them, snapping, lunging? There are some dogs with serious handler aggression and if you interfere with their attack, they will most defintely attack you, bite your hand, arm or even go for your throat. If you've never handled a dog like that, then just admit it and shut up. Don't tell me you're going to pull out a cookie and redirect either. Muzzles can help, but there are dogs that will knock you or anyone else out cold with a muzzle in no time. You have about 2 seconds to get the dog under control so it's not biting or attacking anyone including yourself. What do you do?


Uhm, I would immediately pull him in the OPPOSITE direction and LEAVE the situation.
You do redirecting BEFORE the reaction begins not during. No one here said stick your hand in front of a snapping dog's mouth. 
You see someone coming, you know how your dog normally reacts, you immediately put your body between you and the oncoming person and break his stare. You attempt to get him to do ANY command that requries his focus, and if it is not happening, you immediately leading directly AWAY from the oncoming person quickly and firmly.

Perhaps you should be the one to shut up.

Choking a dog out is a good way to get yourself hurt btw.

Also, nowhere in the OP's post did he say his dog was handler aggressive or really THAT aggressive at all! Some lunging and snapping does not mean "mortally dangerous dog."

I've read your previous posts and see you are aaaallll about the punishment form of training. So I don't expect you to be open to anyone else's suggestion... but I'd fire you as a trainer in an instant and recommend anyone using you do so as well.

// vent.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Bart said:


> Ok wise people, exactly what are you going to do when a dog on your leash is attacking people? biting at them, snapping, lunging? *There are some dogs with serious handler aggression and if you interfere with their attack, they will most defintely attack you, bite your hand, arm or even go for your throat.* If you've never handled a dog like that, then just admit it and shut up. Don't tell me you're going to pull out a cookie and redirect either. Muzzles can help, but there are dogs that will knock you or anyone else out cold with a muzzle in no time. You have about 2 seconds to get the dog under control so it's not biting or attacking anyone including yourself. What do you do?


I wouldn't have a dog like THAT out in public around strangers at all until its reactivity was addressed. 

As far as the OP's dog (which is a fair sight different than the strawdog in your post) I wouldn't allow people to try to pet my fearful dog in the first place. But if it happened, I would also turn around and walk away in the opposite direction. Easy peasy.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

I agree with Lisa and Sassafras. If I had dog that would attack while on a leash, and turn his attack on me if I tried to break it up, I *would not bring that dog into a situation where that could happen*. Period. There is NO need to put the public or the dog in that situation.


----------



## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

The OP has already brought the dog into the situation where the reaction did in fact happen. You can theorize what you would have should have could have done. I just gave the answer on how to manage it because they aren't yet.

And my suggestion was decidedly against punishing the dog. I specifically wrote that a punishment/correction would make the dog hectic and worse and this is a situation where you would not want to punish/correct. Lifting the dog with the choke collar is not a punishment, it is the means to bring the dog under control safely and calmly, stopping the behavior without punishing the dog. I also clearly stated that it won't prevent the behavior and that counter conditioning and desensitization is the answer for that already provided. But once you have a dog in reaction, you are not going to start a preventative measure, it's already happening, you have to manage it now.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Bart said:


> But once you have a dog in reaction, you are not going to start a preventative measure, it's already happening, you have to manage it now.


Yes, that's the "walk away" part. :/


----------



## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

Bart said:


> And my suggestion was decidedly against punishing the dog. I specifically wrote that a punishment/correction would make the dog hectic and worse and this is a situation where you would not want to punish/correct. Lifting the dog with the choke collar is not a punishment,


Seriously you actually believe that?


----------



## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

katielou said:


> Seriously you actually believe that?


Don't you know? Choking a dog out is a reward! *eyeroll*

Here is what can happen if you hang a dog.


""Hanging" the dog: This refers to holding the dog off the ground by his collar and leash. The idea here is that you must end up the winner in all cases, and if a dog insists on trying to bite you, this is a last resort to win over the dog. This is never appropriate. If you cannot back the dog down, you risk being injured. Further, the dog is at risk for injured ocular vessels, tracheal and esophageal damage, and recurrent laryngeal nerve paralysis. In the few cases of recurrent laryngeal nerve paralysis caused by hanging by a choker seen at VHUP (Vet hospital univ. of pennsylvania), all dogs have died despite therapy that included a ventilator.[2] If your dog is likely to bite you, avoid anything that will provoke it."


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

NOT punishment? Ask the dog what he thinks.

The OP gave us the situation. Many of us advised NOT taking the dog so close to people or things that are "triggers" for his reaction. We recommended working with the dog under the threshold. That way, management and redirection is at least possible.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Bart said:


> Ok wise people, exactly what are you going to do when a dog on your leash is attacking people? biting at them, snapping, lunging? There are some dogs with serious handler aggression and if you interfere with their attack, they will most defintely attack you, bite your hand, arm or even go for your throat. If you've never handled a dog like that, then just admit it and shut up. Don't tell me you're going to pull out a cookie and redirect either. Muzzles can help, but there are dogs that will knock you or anyone else out cold with a muzzle in no time. You have about 2 seconds to get the dog under control so it's not biting or attacking anyone including yourself. What do you do?


 What would I do? (not sure if you think I am wise) I would get my dog and myself out of the situation as quickly as possible, exercising damage control to keep anyone (including myself) from being hurt. Then I would roll up a newspaper and repeatedly hit myself on the head for having such poor judgement as to put my dog in that position. Then I would get professional help and start a very controlled desensitization program (yes, most likely involving cookies)



Bart said:


> The OP has already brought the dog into the situation where the reaction did in fact happen. You can theorize what you would have should have could have done. I just gave the answer on how to manage it because they aren't yet.
> 
> And my suggestion was decidedly against punishing the dog. I specifically wrote that a punishment/correction would make the dog hectic and worse and this is a situation where you would not want to punish/correct. Lifting the dog with the choke collar is not a punishment, it is the means to bring the dog under control safely and calmly, stopping the behavior without punishing the dog. I also clearly stated that it won't prevent the behavior and that counter conditioning and desensitization is the answer for that already provided. But once you have a dog in reaction, you are not going to start a preventative measure, it's already happening, you have to manage it now.


Stringing a dog up and cutting off his air until he is "calm" is not inteded to be punishing? Really? What's the mechanics of making it work?


----------

