# An untrainable dog? Is he just too dumb?



## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

I'm beginning to think my GSD mix, Atlas, is simply untrainable. Now, I know that immediately shoots off red flags in many trainer's minds, because most dog owners who say their dog is too stupid to train are just to stupid to train their dog. 

Here's a bit about Atlas: He was rescued as a 3-year-old from animal control because a family found him wandering on the road, took him home and put him in their house with their cats before making sure he wasn't animal aggressive. He ended up killing two of their cats so they surrendered him to animal control. I adopted him aware of this situation, and since I don't like cats, keeping him away from them is not a problem for me. 

Now, I honestly think this is perhaps the dumbest dog I have ever met. He knows his name, but that's it. I have taught him "sit" at least 30 times, but the next day, there's just no recollection of any training I've done. I read up on dog intelligence tests and decided to perform a few of them - one was "throw a towel over the dog's head and see how long it takes them to get it off". Loki, my other GSD mix, removed the towel in about 2 seconds. Atlas wandered around with it on his head, running into things for about 10 minutes until he finally gave up and laid down like "oh well, I guess the world is dark now". 

Another instance of stupidity was when my dad took a slice of lime and threw it to Atlas - Atlas caught it and promptly spit it out. My dad picked the slice up off the floor and threw it to Atlas again - he caught it again and spat it out again. He did that 5 times in a row before my dad just quit throwing the lime, but I'm sure he would have continued catching it. 

He's otherwise a great dog. Potty trained, thank goodness, good with people, doesn't chew things... I just think that he is plain dumb. Am I just approaching his training in the wrong way? Has anyone else had experience with a dog that was just naturally dumb?


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## AussieOwner (Apr 29, 2011)

I knew an Irish Setter like this. He was just the sweetest thing ever and a complete joy to be around. They didn't train him for specifics, just developed good behaviors... slowly. I can't think of him now without a smile and remembering how silly he was.


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## Maggie Girl (Feb 27, 2011)

Well they can't _all _be Einsteins  Just like people, I think the intelligence of dogs varies widely. Growing up we had several dogs, some smart as a whip that learned things the first time around. Then there were others who were just goofy and didn't have a lot of common sense. All were lovable and loved, though. I'd say that if he's grasped potty training he can't be completely stupid, though. That does take some "putting 2 and 2 together". How long have you had him? The whole learning-thing might just be very foreign to him, so if he's still new to your home he might come around later on. 

About fetching the lime... have you considered that maybe he was just being obedient or really wanted to play, even though it tasted yucky to him? Maybe_ he_ thinks _YOU guys_ are the dumb ones, LOL ;-) _"WHY do they keep wanting to play with this nasty thing? Oh well... humans... sigh... gotta do my canine duty."_


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Maggie Girl said:


> Well they can't _all _be Einsteins  Just like people, I think the intelligence of dogs varies widely. Growing up we had several dogs, some smart as a whip that learned things the first time around. Then there were others who were just goofy and didn't have a lot of common sense. All were lovable and loved, though. I'd say that if he's grasped potty training he can't be completely stupid, though. That does take some "putting 2 and 2 together". How long have you had him? The whole learning-thing might just be very foreign to him, so if he's still new to your home he might come around later on.
> 
> About fetching the lime... have you considered that maybe he was just being obedient or really wanted to play, even though it tasted yucky to him? Maybe_ he_ thinks _YOU guys_ are the dumb ones, LOL ;-) _"WHY do they keep wanting to play with this nasty thing? Oh well... humans... sigh... gotta do my canine duty."_


I've had him for over 2 years now and he has never displayed anything even near what I'd call "trainability". I forgot my mention he runs into my glass door at least twice a day attempting to chase squirrels, because he forgets it's there.

I think he just has a different kind of intelligence than the kind humans prize in dogs. While he can't really be trained to do a job or even tricks, if I dropped mine and my father's dogs in the middle of the wilderness, three of them would have no chance of fending for themselves. Atlas, on the other hand, I am *sure* would survive in the wild. He is a very instinctual dog, I think. 

Just wondering if anyone else had any experience with dogs like this, and if they had any tricks for training them? I'd simply like to be able to tell him to sit, stay and lay down and have some sort of response


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## osdbmom (Feb 15, 2011)

we dont think our little yorkie is terribly bright but we love her anyway!! we joke that if she was human, she'd actually be "the dumb blonde" in all the dumb blonde jokes.....her whole life appears to be skipping around and she looks like all thats ever going on in her head is "la la la....la la la". But thats ok.  she's a good, lovable dog.


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## Dreadog (Jun 12, 2009)

Well, I would say my dog, Hoku, is also not the sharpest tool in the shed. But, she is extremely sweet, and I guess smart in her own way. She does walk well on a leash (which is a learned behavior), is house broken (also learned behavior) and sits on command when she feels like it... I am pretty certain if she was left to fend for herself in the woods, she would die. She has pretty much almost NO prey drive, yesterday she took after a cat, the cat stopped, turned and hissed at Hoku, who promptly jumped backwards, laid down and crawled towards the cat on her side...

I also tried the blanket over the head deal with her, and all she did was stand still for a few minutes, then lay down and settle in for a nap. The one good thing with this is that Hoku is really easy to dress up for Halloween, she will wear hats, headbands, masks, tutus... I guess she just figures if we put it on her, it must the right thing, so why fight it?


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Wow. What a disturbing thread. If a dog isn't learning something a particular way, then the trainer needs to try something differnt rather than declaring the dog stupid.

If the poor dog is hitting his head on the door, then put some stickers on the door so the dog can see something is there. Or put up some type of barrier to keep him from running into the glass or supervise him when he is outside. Don't just let him keep running into the glass.
Have you considered that the dog might have some vision issues. Why go straight to "stupid" when many other issues could be at play. Maybe he just has a strong prey drive and get tunnell vision when he goes after something. You can work with prey driving using the Premack principle.

When obdedience training, If a lure sit doesn't work, then try a capture sit or down . If a capture sit doesn't work then try successive approximations.

Or take the dog to vet to see if he has some hip issues which makes sitting or laying down painful. GSDs and Akitas get hip issues. Especially GSDs. Why not assume the dog has a physical issue rather than jumping right to "stupid" Give the poor dog the benefit of the doubt. He is looking to you to take care of him.

Maybe the dog was catching the lime because that he thought that was was your dad wanted. Not all dogs can catch things in their mouth like that. You should be praising that and using it as a basis to teach more tricks, not contantly picking on him by throwing him something that tastes bad. Why not throw a tennis ball and praise him when he catches it? Why be mean when you can be nice?

If the dog is distracted, then remove distractions and work you way up.
Try some tastier treats.

Consider proofing: http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/2011/06/the-proof-is-in-the-puddin-algebra-and-dog-parks/

Physically manipulating a dog takes away from learning. Never ever push on the butt to teach sit. Never tug on a leash to teach down.

Never yell or bark out commands. Keep training, light simple and fun.

Sit http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/2011/03/teach-your-dog-to-sit/
Down http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/2011/06/teach-your-dog-down/
Touch: http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/2011/06/teach-your-dog-touch/


It's way easlier to blame the dog than to look at different styles of training.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

How exactly have you trained him? Some dogs need more incentive than others to do as they are asked, because they do it for what they can get out of it, not out a desire to please. So if you taught the dog to sit using the 'push dog's butt down until he sits', and you don't have a biddable dog, then no, he's not likely to learn anything from that.

Have you tried luring or shaping/capturing?

Most dogs declared 'stupid' just learn things a different way, or are difficult to motivate because the owner hasn't found anything that motivates them yet.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Puddin's Training Tips said:


> Wow. What a disturbing thread. If a dog isn't learning something a particular way, then the trainer needs to try something differnt rather than declaring the dog stupid.
> 
> If the poor dog is hitting his head on the door, then put some stickers on the door so the dog can see something is there. Or put up some type of barrier to keep him from running into the glass or supervise him when he is outside. Don't just let him keep running into the glass.
> Have you considered that the dog might have some vision issues. Why go straight to "stupid" when many other issues could be at play. Maybe he just has a strong prey drive and get tunnell vision when he goes after something. You can work with prey driving using the Premack principle.
> ...


I sort of understand your reaction to this thread as disturbing, as you and I are just members of an online forum and you don't know me at all personally. So I will address your issues with myself, my training behaviors and my treatment of my dog.

Firstly, I attached a black, horizontal piece of electrical tape at dog eye-level to the door so that both of the dogs are aware of a barrier. He simply runs into it anyways, because I believe he is so highly prey-driven that when he sees a squirrel (or anything else), that is ALL he sees. 

Seeing as he can catch a single kibble that I throw from 20 feet across the room, I highly doubt he has any sort of vision issues. 

I have attempted working with his prey drive, and there is simply *nothing* this dog would rather do than chase and kill small furry animals. When he sees a prey animal, there is no distraction that will work - I have waved raw steaks in his face and he hasn't blinked an eye or showed any interest in anything but chasing the prey animal he sees. It is tunnel vision like I have NEVER seen in a dog before. 

As I have both of my dogs screened every 6-8 months for general health issues, such as teeth and hip problems, I know that his hips are entirely fine.

Like I said, I understand your reactions, but instead of automatically criticizing my approach to this particular canine, instead maybe you should ask what I've tried or where I'm coming from? My other dog, Loki, is incredibly well trained - he does all the usual tricks, plus much harder ones, including fetching me the remote control, recognizing the difference between his toys, and more. I am very able to adapt my training style and attempting new techniques, as I've trained Loki and my father's dogs, all who have very different training needs. 

Anyways, I didn't start this thread for a critique of my training or ownership, as my dogs are happy, well exercised and mostly well behaved. While I would like to further my relationship with Atlas by getting him to master some more advanced training, I simply think that it's not in the cards with this particular canine.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Thanks for clearing up some things for me. And thanks for being so attentive to your dogs medical needs. I know a lot of people who glaze over when they hear the word "vet" like I'm speaking another language.

Strong prey drive does not equal stupid. You will just have to learn to work with it (like the Premack Principle). And/or work harder on proofing.

I have a dog who is very scent driven so she is harder to train that my other dogs, but I don't consider her stupider than my other dogs.
Ref: Why Won't My Pug Herd Sheep?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

The statement I hear more times than any other when dogs are dropped off for training is "My dog is stupid"


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Am I missing something? The dog seems like he's intelligent and a survivor. I wonder if he has such a strong prey drive, because that is how he survived and ate when he was in the street ?

So I agree with Puddin's methods - teach him to catch on cue, and then teach him the names of the things that he catches. One of the important reasons for teaching a puppy "Sit!" is to teach him that English has meaning and related behaviors have good consequences. Teaching Atlas a little more, should make it easier to teach him the basics, with a little more patience. You may find that you can teach him a few more advanced behaviors, before he understands all the simpler ones.

BTW, my dog is intelligent, trained... and occasionally obedient (more or less), however, he would be happy to commit suicide in order to chase a squirrel across the street


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Perhaps you could use that prey drive to your advantage. Instead of rewarding him with food, try rewarding him with a game of tug? Or spray rabbit scent on a toy? Maybe use a flirt pole? 

I think a lot of the time, dogs that come off as stupid just aren't very motivated because their owner hasn't figured out yet what is most motivating for that particular dog.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

OP have you ever considered getting into something like lure coursing? Give him a healthy outlet to chase and use his drive?

I have a stupid dog. I say that with no small amount of love, and I honestly have never gotten to the bottom of why he's my little rock. We've discussed it a few times on chat, but Jonas literally barely knows how to sit. He is not stupid, but I have never found a way to teach him any thing. He has been x-rayed because I assumed Dachshund = spinal issues and every thing looks good. I thought once he knew how to speak on command, but really he was just barking at the treat in my hand not so much the cue. He's good on lead, he has learned a lot and come a LONG way behaviorally, and he's over all a good boy. I guess I am just not obsessed with the idea of him being able to lay down or sit when I tell him to but it is baffling.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Trust me I'm not stranger to 'stupid' dogs....Cain is a complete R-tard in the canine world. He's the dog who ran, as fast as he could to the end of the leash and flung himself around. It took him 10+ tries to realize that he couldn't get anywhere, it took only one try for mommy to tie him to something solid while he did. This is also the dog who makes this face:










Eventually he learned leash manners, simple obedience, a few tricks...and that the fridge wouldn't kill him (seriously...he use to be terrified of the fridge)

Have you tried to get perfessional help, maybe someone can help you figure out what he needs.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Trillian said:


> Trust me I'm not stranger to 'stupid' dogs....Cain is a complete R-tard in the canine world. He's the dog who ran, as fast as he could to the end of the leash and flung himself around. It took him 10+ tries to realize that he couldn't get anywhere, it took only one try for mommy to tie him to something solid while he did. This is also the dog who makes this face:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I LOOOVVEE that face!!!


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

LOL, this thread is starting to crack me up. And at the same time, hardening my resolve to always own the most intelligent dogs I can find. As a training junkie, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be for me to own a dog that just couldn't learn.

I just wanted to add one thing to my earlier post...
I firmly believe that just as with humans, learning begets learning in dogs. In other words, a dog must learn at a very young age how to learn. An understimulated puppy is going to result in a dog that might get labeled as stupid. Socializing a puppy to anything and everything will challenge them mentally, resulting in a dog that falls near the top of the heap in terms of intelligence. Nature (genetics) dictates that we are born with a possible range of intelligence; where we fall within that range is largely determined by nurture (upbringing).


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## Elida (May 6, 2010)

this is painfully funny.. 
I just tried the blanket thing myself and that is what Barney did exactly, lol
Bella got rid of it in a few seconds. I thought it is coincidential and put it again. She lied down too

And then I tried to show a biscuit, put it on the floor and then put a cup over it, to see how many seconds it will take them to get the biscuit.
Bella got scared of the cup and ran away. Barney smelled the cup and then sit again for me to hand him the biscuit. 

At least your dog is catching when you throw things. Mine just keep looking at me to hand them the stuff I just threw (if it is food, no interest in toys)!

They know sit and shake, that is pretty much it. But as soon as I say sit, they both show me their paws
I don't think they are stupid, I got them when they are adults and we don't know each others' language!
They learn very easily from negative experiences. 
Like when I opened the door and Bella was behind it and I hurt her paw.. 
She never gets close to the door when she hears me, waits in a safe distance. 

I love them soo much, wouldn't change a single thing about them, even if they are retarded  
(ok, maybe just one thing, and that is to be trained to play fetch!)


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> LOL, this thread is starting to crack me up. And at the same time, hardening my resolve to always own the most intelligent dogs I can find. As a training junkie, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be for me to own a dog that just couldn't learn.
> 
> I just wanted to add one thing to my earlier post...
> I firmly believe that just as with humans, learning begets learning in dogs. In other words, a dog must learn at a very young age how to learn. An understimulated puppy is going to result in a dog that might get labeled as stupid. Socializing a puppy to anything and everything will challenge them mentally, resulting in a dog that falls near the top of the heap in terms of intelligence. Nature (genetics) dictates that we are born with a possible range of intelligence; where we fall within that range is largely determined by nurture (upbringing).


Agreed, I have been working with some dogs at my local shelter, and have come across 5-6 months old puppies that know absolutely nothing, and it's so difficult to get them to understand that they can actually earn rewards just by doing certain behaviours. And of course that's a huge confidence killer as well, because a dog that knows nothing feels like it has no control over its own world. It's very sad.


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## Polywoggy (Mar 7, 2011)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> I firmly believe that just as with humans, learning begets learning in dogs. In other words, a dog must learn at a very young age how to learn. An understimulated puppy is going to result in a dog that might get labeled as stupid.


Absolutely! I used to work with handicapped children and what a waste it was that education did not begin for them until the age of 5. So many parents were overwhelmed by them, took take of physical needs only, and by the time our programme received the children, many had already retreated into their own world. Some could not be retrieved. Early intervention is key. 
I knew nothing about dogs when raising my Golden, she turned out to be a great dog in spite of me, so I know that she is intelligent. (I think I understood basic concepts of training from working with children though. Patience. Consistency. Repetition. Redirecting unwanted behaviours, Reinforcing the positive.) I am pretty sure she would have continued to catch limes too. She's highly biddable and people-pleasing, but not at all stupid. The OH's Jack is incredibly bright, but also a little stubborn and also distracted by prey drive. When you have his attention though, I think you could teach him to balance your chequebook.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well it's funny the owners that thought or just called their dogs stupid were wrong. I just thought that some dogs absolutely wanted to please and others absolutely did not and all the variables in between. It was my job to build a bridge between dog and owner so they could meet somewhere in the middle and enjoy each other.


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## BrittanieJo (Sep 23, 2010)

I think OP was trying to make light of his situation...obviously we all love our dogs, but we all know there are dogs, just like humans that are better at some things then others. It sounds like you've gotten some good advice, but I would just say if he's not doing something horribly wrong, or hurting himself/others then does it matter if he knows sit on command? It sounds like he had a rough start at life, and you have provided him with some stability and love. I wouldn't give up on him, but it sounds like you are doing everything right and he's just having a tough time. 

PS. I run into glass doors constantly and am an intelligent person (I do have poor vision but it's more I have no common sense, it seems to happen that way). My uncle has one that separates the kids play room from the living room...it has been there since I was 5 years old when they made the porch a walled in room. I have run into it so often that when I come over they just open it...I still walk that way with my hands in front of me. Once I was at a dead sprint running with their pitbull and we BOTH ran into it and I knocked myself out (and got yelled at for running at full tilt in the house). Glass doors are the devil.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Trillian said:


> Trust me I'm not stranger to 'stupid' dogs....Cain is a complete R-tard in the canine world. He's the dog who ran, as fast as he could to the end of the leash and flung himself around. It took him 10+ tries to realize that he couldn't get anywhere, it took only one try for mommy to tie him to something solid while he did. This is also the dog who makes this face:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That picture is hilarious! What a silly face! Atlas makes some pretty interesting faces...


















To everyone - thanks for the feedback and advice. 

After rethinking the situation, I've come to the conclusion that Atlas is not intelligent in a way that is prized by most pet owners. However, he is intelligent when it comes to survival, which is the natural way for a dog to show its smarts... Wolves in the wild don't need to sit or fetch to survive - they need to understand how to find food and shelter, both things Atlas is very good at. I think he's just a bit closer to his primal instincts, especially because of his start in life as a stray.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

dmickle1 said:


>


This is a Cain face too. lol 


Just look at it this way, there will rarely be a day you don't laugh your butt off.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I have to agree with the one person who said just like people, dogs have different levels of intelligence. I also think they have different skill sets that go with that intelligence. I knew a lot of BRILLIANT people when I went to Cornell - Insanely smart people but with absolutely no social skills. 

I'll take Lars for example....brilliant working dog who blows my mind every week with something absolutely genius that he does. But there are two simple things I haven't been successful in teaching him. 1) Don't jump on people and 2) bark at the door when you need to go pee. He will silently sit near the door for hours if he needed to...he hasn't figured out that he can "tell" me he's there. When it comes to jumping on people...he loses his mind when he sees someone he knows and his brain completely shuts down. Lars is a brilliant dog but has no social skills. LOL

I'm sure your guy has some skills he excels in and revel in the ones he doesn't because I bet he's a hoot.


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## Irishman (May 13, 2011)

Puddin's Training Tips said:


> Thanks for clearing up some things for me. And thanks for being so attentive to your dogs medical needs. I know a lot of people who glaze over when they hear the word "vet" like I'm speaking another language.
> 
> Strong prey drive does not equal stupid. You will just have to learn to work with it (like the Premack Principle). And/or work harder on proofing.
> 
> ...


This is true. One of my dogs' instincts are VERY strong, so I have to watch him in situation where a threat might be perceived to myself or my wife (particularly my wife). He's an absolutely wonderful dog, good with other dogs, and good with people - even strangers. He's like a big puppy, right up until he thinks there's a threat. Then he goes from puppy to Tasmanian Devil in .2 seconds. We've worked with him over time, socializing him to the various things that come up and are not a threat. It takes time to override such strong instincts, but it can be done. His prey drive is also incredibly high. Although very good at obedience, when I hold up a treat, it's all he can do to keep his butt on the ground. The treat gets 250% focus. Running prey is even better to him. However, recently he broke off a chase for fleeing rabbits at the park when I called him, so the training must be working. 

I think you're correct, in that your dog gets overtaken by his drive and runs into the door because in that moment it seems like a clear path. It isn't stupidity, just such a high level of focus that it blocks out common sense. In a way it's like LGD breeds. They are generally extremely intelligent, but don't always do well in obedience class, because they were bred to think independently instead of following orders. Good luck! It isn't easy, but it's possible. 

Edit - I should add that at one time I couldn't take this dog of mine out on a walk without worry. He was very reactive to any perceived threat, and I had to cross the street when other people were around. I didn't understand the time periods of socialization, and didn't take him off my property until he'd had all his shots. In the future I'll simply take precautions, but start socialization immediately. As it was, if anyone approached me too closely, or dogs were in the near vicinity, and he went from wonderful to Mr Hyde. I used LAT training, and now I can walk him right past people and dogs, and in general can allow people to pet him if they want. As long as I guide him over, he's OK with it.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Love the pic where he is laying on his back. Such soft sweet eyes.


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## Irishman (May 13, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> I have to agree with the one person who said just like people, dogs have different levels of intelligence. I also think they have different skill sets that go with that intelligence. I knew a lot of BRILLIANT people when I went to Cornell - Insanely smart people but with absolutely no social skills.
> 
> I'll take Lars for example....brilliant working dog who blows my mind every week with something absolutely genius that he does. But there are two simple things I haven't been successful in teaching him. 1) Don't jump on people and 2) bark at the door when you need to go pee. He will silently sit near the door for hours if he needed to...he hasn't figured out that he can "tell" me he's there. When it comes to jumping on people...he loses his mind when he sees someone he knows and his brain completely shuts down. Lars is a brilliant dog but has no social skills. LOL
> 
> I'm sure your guy has some skills he excels in and revel in the ones he doesn't because I bet he's a hoot.


Too true. My smallest is like this. He's one of the smartest dogs I've ever seen, but is a little emotionally erratic, so teaching him is a difficult process. If he even _thinks _I might be mad at him, he rolls to his back. He's a puppy mill dog, which I didn't know about at the time and will never support again. Luckily, he's a very good dog and figures things out at a scary level. Over the last three years, he's gone from highly unfriendly to people (other than me and my wife, who he's always shown nothing but love) to a bit suspicious, and will even get into the lap of some visitors. Until last year, he wouldn't even get into my lap, so this was a major achievement. He used to actually snap at people, and chased a few out of the room he was in. Oddly enough, he's never once shown any aggressive to us. My wife or I could easily walk up and take a toy from him if it was time for bed and he was chewing a noisy bone, and he'd happily give it to us. This is a slight "aside", but I'd think that any dog this unsettled and with obvious human-aggression issues (since handled) would have snapped at us at some point. Maybe he just knew who to trust.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

Just noticed your dogs' coat colors. According to Donaldson there is a little bit of research on coat colors. The research is limited in scope but... http://blog.mysanantonio.com/latrenda/2011/06/hurray-for-black-dogs/


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Trillian said:


>


Best. Picture. EVER.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

I don't know, my Shar Pei wasn't that bright. I was living in an apartment on the ground floor. We had a patio with wooden columns. My dog would stick his big head through and they yelp every time he pulled his head back through. He did it so many times. It was like, doh!

I was able to teach him sit and down. He was a good dog. But sometimes he would infuriate me with his stubborness. I would have to chase him down to get him in the bedroom when I had to leave. Now that I have two (not as) stubborn Shih Tzu, I follow the path of least resistence. They get a treat when they go to the bedroom and they run ahead of me. Everybody is happy.


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## MooMoosMommy (May 23, 2010)

I think you hit the nail on the head above- He isn't stupid. He has 'street smarts'. When I think dumber than a box of rocks I think of my friend's lab, Trooper (RIP old boy). This guy would walk into a corner or into an area that was surrounded front and sides and for the life of him couldn't figure out how to get out. 
The shifting of his feet and whining that would gradually become louder and more frequent and demanding was highly annoying but hysterically funny. We used to joke that he couldn't find his way out of an open box. 
But he loved to please and would do anything for a treat but back out of a corner of course. The poor guy just couldn't get it and never did. She always had to guide him out of those situations/places. We both lament on that often and it is one of the qualities about him that has made him so hard to let go in our hearts and minds. Bless him- so very special.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

Mrs. Boats, I hear you on the jumping thing. Kit is the same way - I can teach her anything I can dream up, and usually within just a couple of training sessions. She is the most brilliant dog I'll probably ever have the pleasure of owning. But she has not, and probably will never grasp that she's not supposed to jump on people. When she thinks she's going to get to meet someone, she immediately goes way over threshold, and learning simply can't take place. Last week, someone who knows her well remarked that "For her, it's not a training issue. It's just a part of who she is." I was stunned that this person, whose dog is trained absolutely perfectly, got it. At this point, I've given up trying to change it and I choose to manage the situation instead.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I've had a really dumb dog before. And I know, everyone is scoffing but I think dogs can be dumb just like some people are just not very smart. 

Anyways, he was a sheltie. He wasn't untrainable and I did teach him a few things, but he had no common sense. He also seemingly never could in his 13 years figure out how to communicate with dogs and people. He would always go about everything the wrong way and the other dogs tended to avoid him for the most part. He would misread them all the time and react just bizarrely to them, so they'd just ignore him. And he never picked up on that. We called him robo-dog because he never had any kind of expression on his face. It was always a blank look. I can't even describe him accurately but everyone that met him would comment on how 'off' he was, even vets and trainers would comment and no one ever gave us a concrete reason as to why he was so strange. He was just always in his own little world. I almost wonder if he had some sort of developmental issue or something. He was just... bizarre. I've still never met another dog like him.

I LOVED him, but he was definitely not a very bright dog.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

You know some f those tests might be set up for the dog to fail, think about it, dogs are like hardwired over thousands of yrs to DEPEND on us for everything, so a dog who gets a blanket on his head lays down might be exhibiting learned helplessness & might be waiting for human help, true to his genes . Same with thr cup excersise, it to me seems only natural for a dog to sit & look to the human, the being who his every need comes from for help.

Related: sometimes stubbornness can be confused for stupidity, Izze keeps going after cows even though she has been repeatedly kicked in the past. Does that make her stupid? Or is she a slave to her drive?


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

GottaLuvMutts said:


> Mrs. Boats, I hear you on the jumping thing. Kit is the same way - I can teach her anything I can dream up, and usually within just a couple of training sessions. She is the most brilliant dog I'll probably ever have the pleasure of owning. But she has not, and probably will never grasp that she's not supposed to jump on people. When she thinks she's going to get to meet someone, she immediately goes way over threshold, and learning simply can't take place. Last week, someone who knows her well remarked that "For her, it's not a training issue. It's just a part of who she is." I was stunned that this person, whose dog is trained absolutely perfectly, got it. At this point, I've given up trying to change it and I choose to manage the situation instead.


You're right...it is part of who he is. How I'm managing it is...he can release his jumping at me when he meets someone. That seems to be working for now and it's lessened him jumping at people. It hasn't stopped it, but it's better. LOL

There are some other things in agility like his strong resistance to collect and his need to run in full extension all the time that is part of who he is. I'm starting to wonder if I'll ever get through to him there isn't a need to go full throttle like he is in that pic under my name. I tell people love and work the dog you have...but sometimes I don't listen to my own advice.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

dmickle1 said:


> I sort of understand your reaction to this thread as disturbing, as you and I are just members of an online forum and you don't know me at all personally. So I will address your issues with myself, my training behaviors and my treatment of my dog.
> 
> Firstly, I attached a black, horizontal piece of electrical tape at dog eye-level to the door so that both of the dogs are aware of a barrier. He simply runs into it anyways, because I believe he is so highly prey-driven that when he sees a squirrel (or anything else), that is ALL he sees.
> 
> ...


It's weird, isn't it? I have a GSD who has instinctual knowledge so great that it sometimes baffles me, but on a day to day basis he just does dumb stuff. He doesn't run into the door (well, he did once), but he will chase birds with his head up and run into the fence. He has given himself a blood nose doing this, and never even acts like it hurts. (However, he he's sleeping and I bump him on accident, he goes flying across the room yelping like someone just attempted to run him down with a backhoe.) He spent the better part of the winter (think snow, 20 below, wind, etc) trying to bull his way outside, and the better part of a recent heat wave (think 98 degrees and humid) doing the same thing, because he wanted to be OUTSIDE. However, a few days ago I put him in the yard on a very beautiful, crisp day (about 78, NO humidity), and he stood by the door, staring inside, like I was trying to murder him. In a lot of ways, he has the personality of "what's in it for me?" and he works against me a lot it seems. I spent a good 2 years focusing on things like come and down, and to this day those are the only two cues he really excels at. Which is fine. He's never going to be an obedience champion, and his main job is to be a protector with his mouth (he barks at the door, which is fine with me because I live alone) and be quiet when told (which he also does). In order to be a nice pet, that's all he has to do. Lowering my expectations just a bit has really made my life easier with him. I would be interested to see if your dog would enjoy something like weight pulling, lure coursing, etc. I *so* wanted to get Auz (my GSD) into schutzhund. Would he compete? No way. Would he do well? Maybe. Would he enjoy it? I think absolutely. But I can't find a club within reasonable driving distance. It sucks. (It's like having that kid who's an artistic genius, and you send them to MIT and they flunk out and you just can't understand WHY...)
OTOH, I have a little dog (a papillon) who seems to be brilliant. He picks things up QUICK, within 2 or 3 tries he's got it and he retains it. On the rare occasion he's done something really bad and gotten a punishment for it, he shuts down. I know for a fact if someone who used nothing but praise and physical punishment on this particular dog, he would be labeled completely stupid, because any form of displeasure on my part makes him shut down and stop working. Even if he does something on accident (takes a wrong jump in agility, does a crooked front in obedience, etc) and my face says "crap, that wasn't good" he will look a bit dejected.


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