# "Humane" Dog Food?



## silvertail (Apr 30, 2008)

When I go shopping for food for myself, I can find meat products from animals that were raised, and killed, in a relatively humane manner. I can buy the meat and eggs of free range chickens, for example. But in terms of dog food, I have found little information on this. Since most dog food consists of a large amount of animal protein, I would like to find a brand that uses meat from animals, that were treated decently while they lived, and that were killed in the most humane manner possible. If anyone can make some suggestions on this, I would be grateful. Ahh, as a further problem with this, we have to feed my dog lamb and rice dog food. Our vet said it was most likely because corn, which is the grain component in most dog foods, upsets her stomach. Anyway, I would be most grateful for any advice on this subject.

Cheers,
Dan


----------



## Aggie (Mar 13, 2008)

Blue Buffalo is availible at Petsmart; they don't use it as a selling point I see per se on the website, but all the bags say "free-range lamb," and (thus) they have a lamb and rice formula you may want to look into. 

I'm sure you could call & inquire about specific practices.

There are also the ingredient lists for the different foods they produce listed so you can look through those. The link is to the lamb & rice one.

http://www.bluebuff.com/products/dogs/lp-adult-lamb.shtml

I think several of the premium dog foods (esp the holistic target-audience) will have ingredients like you are looking for.


http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/ is a good starting place when comparing foods; I don't find it the be-all-end-all of comparison analysis, although many people put a *lot* of stock in this website. It's definitely something to take into consideration if you are looking at a brand which is more or less national and listed.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

A lamb-based food is generally more "humane" than a beef- or chicken- based food. The reason being that lambs are usually raised on pasture, and are not sent to feedlots to finish. Commercially-raised chickens are raised in cramped, dirty poultry confinements, and cattle, though pastured for most of their lives, finish their last 3 months in a nasty, crowded feedlot. So lamb is best for humane conditions. This is for regular brands of dog food, if you specifically look for a free-range chicken dog food or an organic beef dog food, those would probably be best.


----------



## RaleighandNate (Dec 16, 2010)

I have this same question / concern. It seems to me there is a market for more products that offer humanely-raised meat in pet food. In fact, I've considered starting a company that offers this due to the fact that I believe it is a major gap in the market. I believe some animal lovers (many who may be pet owners) would be willing to pay for the additional cost of not using factory-farmed product, as they do with their own food.

As a side note, I tried the Humane Society's vegan food for dogs - my dog wouldn't touch it, unfortunately.

Any thoughts on this?


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

Dogs aren't supposed to be vegan are my thoughts on it. I just dont understand why some vegetarians and vegans (not all obviously) try to impose their nutritional beliefs on animals that NATURALLY eat meat. If they are concerned with the way the animals are treated before slaughter, that is fine, but let your (general you) meat eating critter eat meat....


----------



## RaleighandNate (Dec 16, 2010)

People say the same about people - and they are wrong. Vegan diets are perfectly healthy for people. I can't speak for animals, and I wasn't speaking to that. I commend the Humane Society for attempting to address a major issue in the pet food market - that virtual all food options (even 'holistic' brands) are made with factory farmed meat. 

If I were to do this myself, I would create a free-range, humanely-raised, meat based product for pets. I suspect meat is healthier than a vegan diet for animals and I am interested in supporting small farmers who raise animals humanely. I believe there is a set of pet owners that would also be concerned with the food their pets eat, what it contains (antibiotics and other nasties for factory-farmed meat), and would rather spend their money on a local farmer who treats his animals well than write a big check to Cargill.


----------



## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

I wasn't saying there was anything wrong with vegan or vegetarian diets, but a carnivore is a carnivore.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Yeah, if you try to feed a cat a vegan diet, all you're going to get is a dead cat x.x

I can't imagine what a bag of food made from free range animal sources would cost. I do know I wouldn't pay for it.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Dogs are not people. They need meat.

You could try Orijen. From their website:



> Different from conventional pet food makers, our Biologically Appropriate focus means our foods are formulated to nourish dogs and cats in keeping with their evolutionary and anatomical adaptation to protein-rich diets that include a broad variety of fresh meats.
> 
> That means we don’t buy the bulk commodity ingredients found in conventional pet foods.
> 
> ...


(Bolding mine.)

I feed my pup Orijen. It's amazing food. His fur is shiny, his stool is small and doesn't smell much at all, and he loves the taste of the food.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Or you could research how to provide your dog with a well-balanced raw or homecooked diet, and feed him the same meat you buy for yourself  .


----------



## TomJones (Dec 11, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> Dogs are not people. They need meat.
> 
> You could try Orijen. From their website:
> 
> ...


You cannot buy better quality commercial pet food than Orijen. They have very strict policies on food sourcing and only using 100% local human grade free range meats. We feed it to our cat and have converted many friends with their dogs who haven't gone raw yet. Our Dog even gets some as a high quality treat perfect for training. It even smells fresh when you open the bags.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I should mention that it's not crazy expensive, either. I pay $19 (Canadian) for a 5.5 pound bag. I pay $15 for a 5-pound bag of Taste of the Wild, another high-quality, grain-free food (although it's not made with all free-range meats like Orijen is). I'm pretty sure I used to pay $18 or so for a _smaller_ bag of Royal Canin (2.5 pounds!), and it's a crap food compared to these two.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

The fresh meats that go into Orijen may be local but the company also uses meals produced elsewhere or did. And even the Alberta chickens are old layers who are kept in pretty awful conditions.
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B-LDrRDG112PZGYxNDgzYmItZDg1MC00OGQ5LTk4ODEtYjkzYjRhNjVmMTky&hl=en
Posted on this page.
http://itchmoforums.com/pet-food-questions-and-researching-foodsingredients/orijen-concerns-about-ingredients-t8948.0.html

Max eats raw, his meats come from a program that keeps food from the dump or rendering plant, Sustainable Selections, and from a meat packer who sells bits that aren't used by people so he is basically eating mostly scraps that would be sent to the dump or renderer. I guess I would love if all those scraps came from hunted or pastured animals but at least he mostly isn't taking meat away from people.


----------



## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

I would say the best way to make sure is to home cook or feed raw , the same humane products you feed yourself...as a PP said. We also only buy from humane sources..my dogs eat blue buffalo which claims to use free range. 

As for dogs being vegans... not good. People are Omnivores. Dogs are Carnivores. They NEED meat . While they may not immediately die from a vegan diet it is not healthy for them at all. I find it ironic that animal rights activists think it is being being humane to animals by denying their own pet his biologically natural , necessary , and desired diet. If it really bothers them that much , having meat in their home , then get a herbivore for a pet.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Rabbits make terrific pets as do guinea pigs. Don't get chickens, they need meat.


----------



## Horseshoe (Nov 10, 2010)

Kathyy? what does "don't get chickens, they need meat mean? We have chickens, we sell eggs...after the hen is old and done we will not eat them we will feed them to the dogs or if one dies the dogs will get it. 

I did read the article and they said they don't have regulated sites to get chicken meal from so they buy from USDA reg. plants here...I think that is much better than getting the meal from a nonregulated source.

Our trainer worked for Purdue and all his dead chickens or dying went to the dogs...they were in great shape...these were top trial dogs.


----------



## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Don't get chickens as pets if you want a vegan pet that's all. Most people think chickens just eat corn and such.

Not talking about appropriate diets for the dogs, talking about humans who want to feed meat that is humanely treated. Many people think caged layer chickens and meat chickens raised in sheds as inhumane.

Your old hens are great food for dogs and humanely treated, right? Perfect. I wish I had chickens and could do the same.


----------



## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

As mentioned above Orijen is all free range and cruelty free, and it's the best quality food available IMO. Even the fish are wild caught. Also, Animals fed GMO should be a concern as well. Orijen contains no meat from animals fed GMO. I read a solid gold story about a scientific trial involving mice fed GMO. The mice fed GMO weren't fertile and the few that got pregnant gave birth to dead babies or lost them before birth. The male mice also became infertile. With Orijen you know what your dog is getting completely, because even what the animals who's meat went into the dog food ate counts tremendously. I'm feeding Orijen regional red and they use fresh wild boar. Cage free completely.


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I just looked up Orijen on Amazon. I've seen it around here, but never priced it. A 30 lb bag goes for $64 which seems really steep for me. In contrast a 35 lb back of Science Diet (which I think we would all agree is not a good quality food) goes for $32. So Orijen is literally twice as much as the crap stuff. I'm sure it's good quality, but it looks like you pay a premium for it as well. 

I feed my dogs something in the middle. I tried TOTW with them and they ate it with just as much gusto as anything else I've fed them. I didn't notice any difference in their behavior or their coats or anything though. I'm sometimes skeptical about just how good premium dog foods are myself. They don't seem to make any difference to my two, but mine may well be the exception to the rule.


----------



## TomJones (Dec 11, 2010)

*Science Diet is crap*. Loaded with corn and grains. Orijen is grain free. There is no comparison.

For more education on this matter please refer to http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1028&cat=all

The information is out there. We must first be open to receiving it though...


To search the full list - http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

_The sooner we can all move past assumptions that brands like Science Diet, PVD,Medi Cal, Royal Canine, Iams, Pedigree and the like are healthy the sooner we can start educating our selves and making better choices for our dogs.

Major brand pet foods like the ones listed are loaded with byproducts and corn, grain and other fillers. They are the equivalent of feeding your dog McDonalds every day. Sure it will keep him alive, but in no way is it proper nutrition.

People soo much want to believe that a $30 bag of food from the store once a month is all their pet needs. It's much easier this way to pretend. While it's all just pretend. The food most owners buy is shameful. I would venture that most don't read or understand the ingredient list either. In what world should dogs be eating so much corn and rendered animal fats???

/rant_

I've copied the ingredients from a bag of Science Diet below-

Ingredients:
Chicken, corn meal, ground grain sorghum, ground wheat, chicken by-product meal, brewers rice, soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid), natural flavor, vegetable oil, dried egg product, flaxseed, preserved with BHT and BHA, beta-carotene, minerals (iodized salt, calcium carbonate, dicalcium phosphate, potassium chloride, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, ascorbic acid (a source of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement). 


This food receives a 1 star rating simply because there is nothing lower.


The first ingredient on the listed is a named meat product, but since this is chicken inclusive of its water content (about 80%) and this ingredient will weigh only about 20% of its wet weight once water is removed (as it must be to make kibble) it is unlikely that this is the true first ingredient in the food and would be more accurately placed much further down the ingredient list. This is the sole named meat product in the food.


The next three ingredients are all low quality grains. Corn is a problematic grain that is difficult for dogs to digest and thought to be the cause of a great many allergy and yeast infection problems. We prefer not to see this used in dog food, yet it is the primary grain in this food. We prefer not to see this used in dog food. Sorghum is a carbohydrate source low in digestibility. We consider it primarily filler.


The fourth ingredient is wheat. The use of wheat is a significant negative: wheat is believed to be the number one cause of allergy problems in dog food. This is another ingredient we prefer not to see used at all in dog food.


The fifth ingredient in the food is by-products. It is impossible to ascertain the quality of by-products and these are usually products that are of such low quality as to be rejected for use in the human food chain, or else are those parts that have so little value that they cannot be used elsewhere in either the human or pet food industries. The AAFCO definition of chicken by-product meal is “a meal consisting of the ground, rendered, clean parts of the carcass of slaughtered chicken, such as necks, feet, undeveloped eggs and intestines, exclusive of feathers, except in such amounts as might occur unavoidable in good processing practice.”


The next ingredient in this food is brewers rice which is a low quality grain and by-product.


The 7th ingredient is soybean meal. Soy is a poor quality source of protein in dog food, and a common cause of allergy problems. Some believe that it is the number 1 cause of food allergies in dogs (outstripping even wheat).


Animal fat is a further low quality ingredient and is impossible to determine the source. Unidentified ingredients are usually very low quality. AAFCO define this as "obtained from the tissues of mammals and/or poultry in the commercial processes of rendering or extracting. It consists predominantly of glyceride esters of fatty acids and contains no additions of free fatty acids. If an antioxidant is used, the common name or names must be indicated, followed by the words "used as a preservative".


This food contains chemical preservatives (BHA, BHT and propyl gallate) that are believed to be carcinogenic.




That was Hills Science Diet... In what world is that good food?

*Orijen Dog Food*

INGREDIENTS
Fresh deboned wild boar, fresh deboned lamb, lamb meal, russet potato, fresh deboned pork, peas, salmon meal, whitefish meal*, herring meal, fresh deboned bison, fresh whole eggs, potato starch, fresh deboned salmon (a natural source of DHA and EPA), alfalfa, sweet potato, fresh deboned walleye, salmon oil (naturally preserved with vitamin E and citric acid), pea fiber, psyllium, pumpkin, tomatoes, carrots, apples, cranberries, Saskatoon berries, black currants, chicory root, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold flowers, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile flowers, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, organic kelp, vitamin A, vitamin D3, vitamin E, niacin, zinc proteinate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, vitamin B5, iron proteinate, vitamin B6, manganese proteinate, copper proteinate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12, selenium, dried Lactobacillus acidophilus product, dried Enterococcus faecium fermentation product.

The first three ingredients in this food are all named meat products, as is the fifth and there are ten meat ingredients overall. We note that the first two of these meat products are meat inclusive of water content. Once that is removed, as it must be to create a dehydrated product, the ingredients will weigh around 20% of their wet weight and may not be the true first ingredients in the food but rather more accurately placed further down the ingredient list. Since the third (and several subsequent) ingredients are meat in meal form, the inclusion of 'wet' meat products does not give us any concern about the overall meat content of the food - which appears to be amongst the highest currently available in a dry dog food.


The starch content of this food comes from potatoes, which is a good quality source of carbohydrate. We appreciate the inclusion of a range of fruits and vegetables in the food and the use of whole eggs. There is a good range of probiotics.


Like other products in this range, Orijen Regional Red is a completely grain free formula. Grains are not a natural foodstuff for canines, and it is good to see manufacturers producing products of a more species-appropriate nature. Overall, this looks to be amongst the best dry dog foods currently on the market.


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Where did I say Science Diet wasn't crap? I just said that Orijen costs twice as much as the crap food.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Orijen isn't the best for every one, either. Certainly didn't do Smalls and Jonas any good. We fed it for six months and they never adjusted. They consistently had loose poop, if not diarrhea. Works for me as I was paying 70 some dollars a bag for it. There is no one size fits all dog food. 

We feed TOTW. EVERY one does well on it here. Does that make it the best food EVAR? Not for every one. Mine just do well on it and so we're sticking with it.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

RaleighandNate said:


> People say the same about people - and they are wrong. Vegan diets are perfectly healthy for people. I can't speak for animals, and I wasn't speaking to that. I commend the Humane Society for attempting to address a major issue in the pet food market - that virtual all food options (even 'holistic' brands) are made with factory farmed meat.


this is not totally true. A vegan diet for humans is GARBAGE without a whole lot of specialized(read: expensive and typically unnatural) foods. 

and as for pets. Dogs are carnivores and cats are obligate carnivores.

You will *kill *a cat if you deny it meat based proteins. You will have a weak dog prone to issues if you deny it meat based proteins(there are rare exceptions to this and those rare exceptions have to do with fairly upsetting disorders.)


that's all i got to say. feeding carnivorous pets a vegan diet constitutes animal abuse in my mind and it makes me sick to my stomach that something called a HUMANE society would ENCOURAGE people to do such a screwed up thing.

Im done.


----------



## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Orijen isn't the best for every one, either. Certainly didn't do Smalls and Jonas any good. We fed it for six months and they never adjusted. They consistently had loose poop, if not diarrhea. Works for me as I was paying 70 some dollars a bag for it. There is no one size fits all dog food.
> 
> We feed TOTW. EVERY one does well on it here. Does that make it the best food EVAR? Not for every one. Mine just do well on it and so we're sticking with it.


I tried TOTW on my guys. It's more expensive than the stuff I normally feed too and had no effect on my guys. Fed it for a couple of months. No change in energy level, coat, etc..... I just got more expensive poop. My guys may just be immune to premium foods. Dunno.


----------



## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Just because the difference isn't obvious doesn't mean it isn't better for your dogs. I switched from science diet to Orijen and didn't see a remarkable difference. Science Diet might be crap ingredient wise but it does do what it says it will. Hallie lost weight and gained muscle on Science diet. She had firm stool and a shiny coat. I hated the ingredients so much I switched back to grain free, but needless to say Hallie did fantastic on Science Diet. Depends on the dog what the 'best' food is. Fortunately Hallie can handle any food.


----------



## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> this is not totally true. A vegan diet for humans is GARBAGE without a whole lot of specialized(read: expensive and typically unnatural) foods.
> 
> and as for pets. Dogs are carnivores and cats are obligate carnivores.
> 
> ...


This times about 4 trilion.... very well said Zim


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

hulkamaniac said:


> I tried TOTW on my guys. It's more expensive than the stuff I normally feed too and had no effect on my guys. Fed it for a couple of months. No change in energy level, coat, etc..... I just got more expensive poop. My guys may just be immune to premium foods. Dunno.


I've found in my extensive food sampling (Smalls has intestinal issues and it provides for a difficult time finding food) that it really is a crap shoot. I absolutely love Orijen and think it's a great food- we just can't feed it. I also love TOTW and thankfully it works. When we got each of the dogs they were being fed various diets I would find crappy (Jack and Jonas were eating Science Diet, and Magpie was eating some grocery store brand I had never heard of) and they seemed a-OK. My parents dog ate Ol' Roy his entire life and lived to be 20. When Smalls was eating Pedigree years ago she basically only had runny poop and was in and out of the vet. Now she's been eating TOTW for a hot minute and she nas not been to the e-vet in over two years.

The difference may lie in what we don't always see. Kind of like me eating garbage food or eating good food- I can't see a difference but I can't imagine the havoc the crap I'm eating is doing to me. I'd rather error on the side of good food with the dogs, but not every one can afford it and pick the best they can.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Orijen would, without question, make Strauss and Mirada very very ill. They just can't handle foods so high in protein (the 30% protein in TOTW High Prairie is too much for them). I'm not going to spend almost $70 (nor can I afford to) on such food. We'd be spending $140/month on dog food alone! We currently spend $110/month on dog AND cat food.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Orijen seems to work very well for Casper (he has a lovely shiny coat and small, firm, non-smelly poop), but I think the protein level would be too high for Crystal -- her stomach gets upset if she eats rich meats. I feed her Taste of the Wild and she does great on that. I definitely noticed a difference after switching her from Royal Canin (which I _thought_ was good before I started learning about dog nutrition). She needs to eat much less of the TotW and she has smaller, firmer poop as well. It doesn't cost as much as Orijen, either. It wouldn't suit the OP, but it's a great food overall.


----------



## Rex (Dec 19, 2010)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> this is not totally true. A vegan diet for humans is GARBAGE without a whole lot of specialized(read: expensive and typically unnatural) foods.


Could you you give some examples of these specialized foods? I'm very curious.


I feed Orijen and my dogs do great on it.


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I feed Earthborn Holistic (the primitive natural to be specific) and am very happy with it and their general commitment to the environment. I do not know if their meats are free-range but their customer service is pretty responsive and will likely answer that question for you.


----------



## ninedogs (Jul 17, 2011)

Miranda16 said:


> Dogs aren't supposed to be vegan are my thoughts on it. I just dont understand why some vegetarians and vegans (not all obviously) try to impose their nutritional beliefs on animals that NATURALLY eat meat. If they are concerned with the way the animals are treated before slaughter, that is fine, but let your (general you) meat eating critter eat meat....


Your thoughts are uninformed. Please do some research on this, as I believe you are wrong. In fact I know you are.


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ninedogs said:


> Your thoughts are uninformed. Please do some research on this, as I believe you are wrong. In fact I know you are.


how about presenting the case for why she is supposedly wrong instead of just hauling off with "IZ RONG ON DA INTERWEBZ!!"


----------



## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

ninedogs said:


> Your thoughts are uninformed. Please do some research on this, as I believe you are wrong. In fact I know you are.


Yeah, seems like you've done research which has led you to this conclusion, so please site your sources.


----------



## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

these types of comments always lead to the most entertaining discussions. 

i, too, would like to see the "proof" that dogs don't need meat.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

PETA, perhaps?

http://www.peta.org/issues/Companion-Animals/meatless-meals-for-dogs-and-cats.aspx

The Internet is crawling with groups and individuals who believe that dogs, and even cats, can thrive without eating any animal products. That does not constitute fact, and "I know I'm right and I know you're wrong" is not a convincing argument."


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

AAARGH! Completely irresponsible advice in that link... cats are obligate carnivores and you will KILL THEM DEAD without meat in their diet. *seethes*


----------



## ninedogs (Jul 17, 2011)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> how about presenting the case for why she is supposedly wrong instead of just hauling off with "IZ RONG ON DA INTERWEBZ!!"


I'm a school teacher. Students learn best doing their own research because they have something invested in it: TIME.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

If you are going to make claims, it's on you to back it up. This isn't a classroom, it's a discussion forum.


----------



## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

i am also a school teacher, and i agree that students learn best by finding things out on their own (to a certain extent) BUT you are using that as a total cop out. show us your proof. i am sure we could give you 100's of sites that will prove that dogs are carnivores.


----------



## ninedogs (Jul 17, 2011)

Please stop bullying me. Do the research and cite your references. If you don't want to, then don't. I'm just saying that you are making uninformed assumptions and I know that you are. Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently. Look at your tone. Do you want to learn something or do you just want to discount everyone with whom you disagree? I swear if my students took this sort of tone in our forums, they would get a big fat F.

Kindly use some manners. 
Whose forum is this?


----------



## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

ninedogs said:


> I'm a school teacher. Students learn best doing their own research because they have something invested in it: TIME.


Students also do better when they have a teacher with a good understanding of the subject matter who can guide them in their research and not lead them astray with poorly researched information. If you want to sound credible, cite your own sources for people to examine.

Here's a reasonable source of dog nutrition requirements: http://dels-old.nas.edu/banr/briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf

Dogs can survive on a vegetarian diet, HOWEVER, it requires sufficient protein, vitamins and minerals which is a difficult standard to reach without including animal-based food sources. Included in the article above are all the health problems that can crop up when a dog lacks an essential nutrient. Just because a human can survive on nothing but McDonald's burgers, it doesn't make it a healthy diet. Surviving on a vegetarian diet is not thriving on it or providing optimal nutrition.



ninedogs said:


> Please stop bullying me. Do the research and cite your references. If you don't want to, then don't. I'm just saying that you are making uninformed assumptions and I know that you are. Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently. Look at your tone. Do you want to learn something or do you just want to discount everyone with whom you disagree? I swear if my students took this sort of tone in our forums, they would get a big fat F.
> 
> Kindly use some manners.
> Whose forum is this?


You are taking their so-called "tone" as an insult and yet no one has done anything except repeatedly ask you to cite your sources. I've just provided a link to the National Academy of Sciences. This forum is for everyone by the way and I think taking your own advice might be recommended.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

ninedogs said:


> Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently.


But you haven't said anything except "you're wrong" -- and no, that's not going to change my mind. 

Generally on any discussion forum I've been on, etiquette is that if YOU make an assertion or argument, YOU are the one who does the research and cites your sources. You're not our teacher here, you're just another person in the discussion.


----------



## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

Shell said:


> Students also do better when they have a teacher with a good understanding of the subject matter who can guide them in their research and not lead them astray with poorly researched information. If you want to sound credible, cite your own sources for people to examine.
> 
> Here's a reasonable source of dog nutrition requirements: http://dels-old.nas.edu/banr/briefs/dog_nutrition_final.pdf
> 
> ...





sassafras said:


> But you haven't said anything except "you're wrong" -- and no, that's not going to change my mind.
> 
> Generally on any discussion forum I've been on, etiquette is that if YOU make an assertion or argument, YOU are the one who does the research and cites your sources. You're not our teacher here, you're just another person in the discussion.


it has been said many times, we need a "like" button


----------



## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

youre a teacher. im a lab tech. sassafras is a vet. now that we've all whipped out our packages, lets see your sources.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

ninedogs said:


> I'm a school teacher. Students learn best doing their own research because they have something invested in it: TIME.



Teachers are also supposed to explain things to their students.

If students learn best doing their own research...why do we need teachers? To grade it?

And, as a teacher, I would think you could understand the point being made. Saying "I'm right, you're wrong." is not how you present a counter-argument or a case against something.

You're also implying that the person didn't do their research, which may not be true. So if she's finding research from erroneous sources, wouldn't you, as a teacher, not guide her to more proper sources?

Wouldn't you also do that for your students? Not just say, "You're wrong. F."

Besides, this is a discussion board, not your classrooms and we are not your students.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Vegan/vegitarian diets are healthy for people because humans are OMNIVORES, dogs and cats are strict carnivores. There are more aminos that dogs and cats cannot produce for themselves. 

If you wish to know where your pets food is from, feed raw and from the same meat sources you prefer, better yet, hunt and fish for them yourself so you know how they are killed and raised.


----------



## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

RaleighandNate said:


> People say the same about people - and they are wrong. Vegan diets are perfectly healthy for people. I can't speak for animals, and I wasn't speaking to that. I commend the Humane Society for attempting to address a major issue in the pet food market - that virtual all food options (even 'holistic' brands) are made with factory farmed meat.
> 
> .


Dogs and cats are obviously carnivores. While I don't think vegan diets are particularly healthy for humans either (have read quite a bit that says they are difficult to do right) at least it is the human's choice. it is inhumane to try to force a carnivore to eat a vegetarian diet. If you have issues about feeding your pet a species appropriate diet, you might consider a bunny or a miniature horse as a more suitable pet than a dog or cat. As to commending the Humane Socity - H$U$'s only interest has always been the "bottom line" Marketing cheap cereal as an expensive food for dogs was a brilliant way to bilk the public and make more money to lobby to take away our rights to own animals.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ninedogs said:


> Please stop bullying me. Do the research and cite your references. If you don't want to, then don't. I'm just saying that you are making uninformed assumptions and I know that you are. Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently. Look at your tone. Do you want to learn something or do you just want to discount everyone with whom you disagree? I swear if my students took this sort of tone in our forums, they would get a big fat F.
> 
> Kindly use some manners.
> Whose forum is this?


If were my childs teacher I'd do my best to have you fired. People have sited their resources, you still say they are wrong but have done nothing to 'correct' them or show alternative resources. Hopefully you don't teach students the way you're debating as you would be failing them AND you need to do a grammer check (you're using incomplete sentances). 

As far as "who's" forum this is well I'm the moderator (principal) You have not been bullied, you're getting facts you don't agree with and are trying to play the teacher card against those who are Veterinarians, Nutritionists and DO Labratory studies for a living. Sorry, but your teaching credentials mean squat and YOUR tone is very condescening! We are adults here, not your students.

Now for some facts on feeding dogs and cats

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/feedcats.html

(by a well known Vegan) http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/344486917/interview-with-a-vegan-jed-gillen

http://messybeast.com/veggiecat.htm


And from http://hubpages.com/hub/Why-Cats-Should-not-Become-Vegetarian



> At a closer look, a cat's digestive tract is particularly short when compared
> to the digestive tract of omnivores in order to properly digest proteins and
> fats found in meat. Cats require many essential nutrients in their bodies that
> can only be found in meat. This is why turning a cat into a vegetarian is an
> ...


----------



## theyogachick (Aug 2, 2009)

I am a teacher, too, and I am insulted ot be lumped into a group with you. If I provide my students with information it is my job, as a professional, to back up what I say...I do not rest on the "well, I am the teacher so I am right" thing.

As far as doing research themselves, yep, students should do that. But we, as everyone has stated, are not your students. You come in, make a statement that is debatable and provide no support.

Sheesh. I guess since you threw out the "I'm a teacher" card we should all just take your word for it.

But, since you asked us to do some research, here you go:

_Dogs Are Omnivores with an *Undeniable Carnivorous Bias*

From DNA studies, we know dogs evolved directly from the timber wolf somewhere around 15,000 years ago.

And, of course, it should come as no surprise… wolves are clearly carnivores.

So, by their very genetic pedigree, dogs also demonstrate similar and noticeable carnivorous traits. Their teeth, their digestive systems and their behavior clearly confirm this fact.

Now, to be fair… and more accurate… dogs must also be recognized for their significant omnivorous ability.

After all, they do have the ability to eat a remarkably diverse diet. But it’s wrong to ignore the fact their bodies are optimized for eating meat.

Dogs Don’t Grind… They Chop

For comparison, think about a typical herbivore. A dairy cow. Now, picture the way they “chew their cud”.

Cows chew widely from side-to-side. And they have broad, flat back teeth. And flat teeth are ideal for grinding grains and plant material into finer particles.

True omnivores (like humans) share this same combination of boxy back teeth and sideways grinding motion common to herbivores. Think of your own mouth and how you chew.

Dogs, on the other hand, don’t have flat teeth. Like all carnivores, they have narrow pointy back teeth.

Plus dogs can’t chew from side-to-side. Their jaws can only move in an up-and-down, chop-chop motion. It’s the perfect combination for cutting meat into smaller chunks.

*Why Dogs Don’t Do Carbohydrates Very Well*

Now, herbivores and omnivores usually have one powerful digestive weapon carnivores usually lack…

Salivary amylase.

Amylase is a special enzyme plant-eating animals produce in their saliva. It’s a critical enzyme needed to initiate the break down of starchy carbohydrates.

Before they enter the stomach.

Now, meat-eating animals also produce amylase. But the enzyme is produced further down the digestive tract (in the small intestine).

Without amylase, a carnivore’s carbohydrate digestion is decidedly more difficult.

*Digestive Anatomy Reveals the Truth*

Since they consume fewer but larger meals, carnivores have bigger stomachs than their grazing, plant-eating counterparts.

What’s more, meat-eating animals exhibit a higher concentration of stomach acid. This allows faster digestion of animal protein.

And the stronger acid kills the disease-causing bacteria abundant in decaying meat.

Plus…

Herbivores have a gastrointestinal tract that’s unusually long… sometimes exceeding ten times the animal’s body length. Longer systems like this are needed for consuming a plant-based diet._

Here is an article from ABC news from 2009: http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/AmazingAnimals/story?id=7154396&page=1

Essentially states that a dog can be vegan, but it is not ideal. Vegetarian is more likely to do better (adding eggs, milk, etc.). Cats, however cannot be vegan.

And here is an article by an herbalist named Robert McDowell. Discusses the digetsive tract of a dog, etc: http://www.pgaa.com/canine/health/rmcddogdigestivesystem.html

Your turn.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind


I'm sixty years old. I've had dogs since I was six. I've changed my mind about quite a lot of things since I joined this forum. Let me list a few.

1) I didn't like rottweilers. Not even a little. Now I think that the ones that I've known were just not representative of the breed.
2) Hybrid vigor: I know longer believe that mutts are automatically going to be more healthy than purebreds.
3) Dog food: I bought a bag of Science Diet, thinking it was a step up. After reading extensively the opinions on this forum, and exploring some of the links provided, I donated the unopened bag to the local shelter and bought a bag of Canidae. I've switched a couple of times since, then, and I make up my own mind, but I read labels a lot more carefully now.
4) The Dog Whisperer: I though Cesar was pretty much harmless entertainment, but now I understand that quite a few people take him seriously and actually try some of that stuff on their own dogs.
5) Very recently, I rethought my practice of letting my dogs ride around with their heads out the window. (We don't do that any more.)

So, yes, it's possible you could say something to compel me to further explore a dog's need for meat.

But, so far, you have not.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ninedogs said:


> Your thoughts are uninformed. Please do some research on this, as I believe you are wrong. In fact I know you are.





ninedogs said:


> I'm a school teacher. Students learn best doing their own research because they have something invested in it: TIME.





ninedogs said:


> Please stop bullying me. Do the research and cite your references. If you don't want to, then don't. I'm just saying that you are making uninformed assumptions and I know that you are. Nothing I say to you is going to change your mind, evidently. Look at your tone. Do you want to learn something or do you just want to discount everyone with whom you disagree? I swear if my students took this sort of tone in our forums, they would get a big fat F.
> 
> Kindly use some manners.
> Whose forum is this?


And seriously, take a LOOK at what you've written. There is NO information just 'I know better than you" with no back up. 

If a student were to write the first statement on ANY subject they would get an "F", the second statement by a student might be equated to "I'm the Head Cheerleader so I'm right" and the third would be "Well the teacher's a bully because she gave me an "F" and used red ink to do it! 

Frankly it looks like a third grader in a playground argument about cooties.


----------



## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Look in the mouth of a dog. Do you see those great big teeth that look like knives?

Look in the mouth of a horse. Do you see the broad flat teeth that look like stones?

Look in the mouth of a human. Do you see the teeth that look like knives, but also the ones farther back that look like stones?

One of these sets of teeth is well suited to slicing and ripping meat. One of these sets of teeth is well suited to crushing plant material. One of these sets of teeth is flexible between both.


----------



## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

And I've learned sometimes old threads like this pop up on my user CP and I can't remember commenting them in the slightest, so sometimes I get to read an opinion of mine from a year or two ago that I totally don't believe anymore. Haven't read it in this thread yet, but it happens to me quite a bit.


----------



## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ROFL, even better, she found an old note from a couple years ago and started arguing with it! I'm locking this one down and letting it sink to the bottom where she snagged it from!


----------

