# Large DA dogs PLUS Stupid Handling = Problems



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Every day or so I go to the Town Park to work my dog on obedience stuff and to walk her. Sometimes we go other places, but it is getting dark earlier and the Town Park is only 2 miles away. 

The park rules are dogs on leash and pick up after your dog. Atka has received special treatment from the local constabulary and they have enjoyed watching her work. 

She has to do long down/stays and long sit/stays for trials and the park is great to practice with kids and people and dogs.. skate boarders, foot ball, cheer leading.. well you get the picture.. a distracting place. This is all off leash work. I also do some heeling and other work off leash as well. She is attentive and getting better all the time.

Some of the other dogs are not so well trained. Tonight two people showed up with two very large Rottweilers that are also very over weight. They started on the long paved walking loop around the park and met up with a girl jogging with her well behaved Shiba Inu cross. 

I have seen the Rottweiler dogs b4 this and the owners always stay far from other dogs, but today they did not. As they were walking toward the girl with the Shiba, both Rotties started to snarl and lunge at the Shiba. The girl got the Shiba next to her in close and the one Rottie broke away from his handler (a small older woman) and attacked the Shiba. The Rottie appeard to have peeled skin from this handler's arm in the process and the guy with the other Rottie is yelling at the one that broke away to "Come Here!! Come Here!!!" This was largely ineffective. 

Meanwhile the girl with the Shiba is cricling her dog trying to keep her out of the jaws of the Rottie and so as the Rottie passes she stops the dog by stepping on its leash at the same time the man lunges for the leash and gets it. It had the Shiba by this time but the man hauled it off the other dog. 

The girl with the Shiba went on her way and the Rottie walkers went on their way.. and then put the Rotties in the Dog Park area (there is a small fenced area for off leash for dogs). Of course, the Rotties attacked anything that went past the dog park area so that was just lovely. 

Meanwhile, all this was going on and Atka looked one time (she was "infront and at attention) and I told her to leave it and reminded her to do "attention' and she did.. so other than an ear flick, she ignored the whole thing. It was noisey too.. that Rottweiler was out for blood. 

Later I stopped the girl with the Shiba and suggested she report the incident to the Town Police (they have their office there) and I gave her my name and number as a witness to the incident. She said that the Rottie owners never even apologized and acted like she and her dog were the instigators. 

I told her no.. I had seen the whole thing and to let the Police know that. 

I also told her that it was crap like this that banned dogs from town parks and gave Rotties a bad name. I also said that it was training that kept a dog by you, not a leash. She said, "Yeah. They had a leash on their dog but it had little effect." 

I just do not understand the WHY of people. WHY bring a dog you cannot control and that can break away from you to a TOWN PARK? Why bring ANY aggressive dog to a Town park if there is a chance it can hurt anyone? 

I looked at these two obese and aggressive dogs and all I could think is "they are a bad accident waiting to happen." And when it happens, if it happens at this park, there will likely be one less place I can go that allows my GOOD dog to be there and mix with people. 

Vent Vent Vent....


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Is this where people chime in with their "who has the biggest willy" competition by going "Yeah! this is why I keep my trusty .79275 Baretta Eagle of Doom by my side!"



I remember a day that someone brought their DA dog into the dog park.. on a leash. There was only a couple other dogs there (mostly Kobe, Ollie, Priscilla + a couple others).

Being that Ollie was a bit reactive, I got a bit concerned. Kobe ran up to the dog, and while I was heading to interfere, the guy's dog lunged at Kobe. It was a big dog, I don't recall what it was anymore. Kobe spun, body slammed it to the side. Every time the dog lunged, *body slam*. The DA dog eventually chilled the heck out and started playing with Kobe a little. He was not giving very many play signals, and was mostly confused at Kobe's amazingly overboard play signals.

But while the dog was still a drooling, shaking, pupil wide open mess, it was calming down and playing a bit with Kobe as I herded Ollie and Priscilla out of the dog park. The guy was amazed at what Kobe did. I was too, and I think this is when he earned his nickname Buddha.

That said, as amazing a sight as that was, I really, really, REALLY have no intentions of ever letting him be in that situation again. As far as I'm concerned, I lucked out that day. I was very pissed at the owner, naturally, but was more interested in getting my kids out of danger.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Good for Kobe.. and of course, for you. The difference in your case was that you were at a dog park and Kobe and the other dog were both off leash. 

These dogs that got into it yesterday were at the Town Park and, as required, on leash. 

FWIW after this incident this girl with a little black Boxer Mix puppy came along. I had seen her before and even gave her a clicker to work with her dog (she is about 15). I warned her about the Rotties and said to just stay away.. they would kill her little dog and she has a GREAT little dog! 

I find the ignorance and/or stupidity of some people completely baffling. 

I find the intelligence that Kobe showed very reassuring.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

It is so sad people like this wreck things for others, I can't beleive they had the balls to stay after that!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Good for Kobe.. and of course, for you. The difference in your case was that you were at a dog park and Kobe and the other dog were both off leash.
> 
> These dogs that got into it yesterday were at the Town Park and, as required, on leash.
> 
> ...


I don't know, I really don't think it's baffling. We now are into a trend where Lawyers Drs and other assorted intelligent (not high school dropout types) that go out and buy the largest shiniest motorcyles that are on the market. (with no bike experience) Then a large %ge of them play "the see how many time I can flop the shiny bike game" Large shiny dogs on leashes owned by people that can't handle them is just another example. (with no dog experience) I could go on and on and on.

I have told this story before of a Weimie I owned (many years ago) minding his own business and an owner with a very large mixed breed dog that when told to keep dog on leash decided to turn dog loose. This dog immediately bolted to the Weimie who was laying down on his own property, There was a bark, a snarl, a snap and the Weimie moved back a couple feet and layed down again. The other dog now had a broken leg. I was a much younger, stupider person because I actually thought a verbal warning to the owner of other dog would be sufficient. If some of today's owners had the intelligence of the Kobe dog it would be a calmer, better dog world.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

If I see these folks again, I will put my dog in the truck and approach them and give them the name and phone number of someone who handles EXACTLY this sort of issue. 

Fact is, he is so intent on helping people with aggressive dogs (both HA and DA) that he gives a 10 week class for $40 at the local High School. That is 10 hours of instruction with homework for $4 a class. I cannot imagine a better deal. 

In his younger days, this same fellow took dogs to various titles including Schutz. 3 and tracking titles so he has done the time. 

He is another bully dog lover (staffies and PBT's being his 'drug of choice.'). He is respected by both Pos. Reinf. trainers and Correction based trainers _in spite of being a correction based trainer._ That says a lot to me. Of course, the dogs he is mostly helping will be PTS if they do not get "fixed." 

If these folks are open to helping themselves and their dogs, I am going to try to get them to talk to this guy. If they are jerks, then time will take care of them. Sadly it will also likely involve damage to an innocent dog. 

I will do all I can to be sure it is not mine.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Do you know if the girl reported it? I wonder if maybe you could report it yourself.

Maybe I'm getting you mixed up with someone else, but I thought you were opposed to allowing dogs off-leash in places where it's not legal.

Even if your dog is totally well behaved, don't you worry that you could set a bad example for people with less well trained dogs, or aggressive and dangerous dogs? I mean, a leash isn't fool-proof, as your story demonstrated, but they prevent dangerous situations and attacks all the time. Is there a reason you don't use a training lead or go somewhere where it's legal to be off-leash?

I probably wouldn't have bothered posting this, but I just could have sworn I'd read posts by you that were opposing allowing dogs off-leash illegally, so I'm confused. Am I mixing you up with someone else?


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

There are as I'm sure you know many well trained dogs all over this country who are capable of off leash work anywhere at any time. I think that's a good example being set by the work she does in park.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

wvasko said:


> There are as I'm sure you know many well trained dogs all over this country who are capable of off leash work anywhere at any time. I think that's a good example being set by the work she does in park.


Oh, I don't doubt that elana's dog and many other dogs are capable of off leash work anywhere at any time -- that's not really what I was addressing. I'm just more interested in the possible effects it could have on other, less responsible dog owners. And at public parks there are people who are scared of dogs, and need them to be leashed to be comfortable. It's more those types of issues that I was talking about.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

None of the dogs were "off leash"; the one just got away from its owner dragging the leash.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

alphadoginthehouse said:


> None of the dogs were "off leash"; the one just got away from its owner dragging the leash.


Elana said that her dog was off leash.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

canteloupe said:


> Oh, I don't doubt that elana's dog and many other dogs are capable of off leash work anywhere at any time -- that's not really what I was addressing. I'm just more interested in the possible effects it could have on other, less responsible dog owners. And at public parks there are people who are scared of dogs, and need them to be leashed to be comfortable. It's more those types of issues that I was talking about.


I understand but it can go 2 ways, seeing a dog like Atka controlled without a lead on and a happy go lucky rascal while doing so is a huge ambassador of good will. With all the untrained dogs pulling people around on their leads somebody's got to show them there is a better way. There are a lot of people that have no idea what a real trained dog in the flesh looks/acts like.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I am not sure if I am who you are referring to and I don't recall a lot of dog leash posts here. It would likely depend on the context of the thread etc. and I don't recall. Heck.. I am lucky if I can recall what day of the week it is much less what I wrote here at some distance in the past. 

If you are anything like my Ex I am sure you will find it, recall it, and hand it back to me on a platter with garnish.. and extra sauce on the side..  

At this town park there are several acres of fields and a foot ball field. I am guessing there is about 30 acres total. It might be 40 acres. It is pretty large contiguous tract. There is a walking loop one mile in length that circumnavigates the park. There is a stream and fishing along one side.. picnic tables around etc. 

Just to clarify, when I work Atka at off leash heel, long down/stays and long sit stays.. recalls.. it is in an area somewhat separated from the rest of the activities. I confine my work area (when the park is real busy like last night) to an area about the same size as an obedience trial ring. Like I said.. the Town Police are there when it is busy and they know what I am about with this dog. 

When I am in a more congested area of the park, I put the dog leash on her for the reasons so mentioned (fearful people etc.). Fact is, last night when I saw the Rotties coming and noted the Shiba approaching them from the opposite direction, I did snap Atka's leash on (it is a 4 foot leash). They were a good bit away from me. I was better at this when I did more shooting but I am guessing they were about 250 feet from where I was.

I receive many many comments and compliments from folks who repeatedly tell me they wish their dog would do this sort of work that my dog does. I tell them that their dog can. It takes committment to training and a series of goals. I offer to help anyone who asks. The Police officers have told me they enjoy watching my dog work. 

Another interesting thing to note is that there are others who come to the park and work off leash. One fellow comes with a strapping male GSD and he is doing Schutzhund work. Another woman comes with some little dogs and she has them do many things. And last, let us not forget the one day a man came with a lab and a dummy launcher and had the lab do a single Blind Retrieve right through many people and dogs (with whistle command and direction). 

In the case of last night's incident, all the dogs were on leash.. and so was mine. Previously we had been working Heel off leash. I did no recall or stay work while the Rotties were within sight. Not because of my dog but because of theirs.


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Those are good points (wvasko and elana) about the benefits of being a positive role model of a well-trained dog.



Elana55 said:


> If you are anything like my Ex I am sure you will find it, recall it, and hand it back to me on a platter with garnish.. and extra sauce on the side..


Oh no, I'm much too lazy to go back through all my old subscribed threads looking for the one that turned into a debate about leashing vs. not leashing. I just thought you might remember.



> At this town park there are several acres of fields and a foot ball field. I am guessing there is about 30 acres total. It might be 40 acres. It is pretty large contiguous tract. There is a walking loop one mile in length that circumnavigates the park. There is a stream and fishing along one side.. picnic tables around etc.


Okay, wow. I was imagining something more like the one or two block parks around here. I do see how this could be more responsible in such a large space.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Yeah.. it is a good sized space. In addition to the Football field there are two base ball fields, a tennis court, a Skate board court and a two basket ball courts.. a play ground with swings and modern jungle gym and all that stuff for little kids.. Town police station.. a large picnic pavillion.. a barn.. a large shop... and on the one end is MORE space with an old Mansion on it with county offices and meeting rooms for those who need mental Health help.. including a community garden for the patients.. .. parking.. and a view of the mountains to die for can be seen from the entire property. 

Right now I live in a 4 house development with 100 acres of State land around the corner and the entire Catskill Park 15 minutes west of me. I have a stream out back and an acre of land.. small IMO.. but for now it is OK. Saving for a small ranch when I retire. Not in NY.. land of taxes and lawyers. 

My dog training problem is needing to travel a bit to find a place with enough people related stuff going on that it is distracting to my dog. Certainly trials will be distracting.. so distracting places is where we need to practice.

Just adding this thought.. wouldn't you think, with all that space, that two people with DA dogs could AVOID altercations? And.. with all that space, if this happened, wouldn't you also think that would be a wake up call for them?


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## canteloupe (Apr 30, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Just adding this thought.. wouldn't you think, with all that space, that two people with DA dogs could AVOID altercations? And.. with all that space, if this happened, wouldn't you also think that would be a wake up call for them?


I think a lot of people think it's their right to take their dog wherever they want. They don't really give any consideration to whether it's safe for other people or other dogs. And, as people point out on here all the time, many dog owners don't even know that the problem behaviors their dogs are exhibiting are actually training failures on their part.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Last night I worked my dog in an area of the park she has never worked before (next to the little kids play gorund). All kinds of commotion plus baseball playing and a few dogs there.. and my dog worked really beautifully. 

A woman came up to me and asked about training and pointed to her young Pit bull that needed it.. complained of him pulling so I helped her with that. Dog improved almost immediately.. smart cute little guy. I had Atka in a down stay (leash on but not attached to anything).. more example of what a dog CAN do. Lady wished her dog WOULD do that and I said any dog can. It takes a committment to training. Don't know if the lesson on leash handling will stick.. but there was immediate improvement with the puppy. I told her she had a great dog. 

In conversation I brought up the Rottweiler situation and she said, "Oh yes. They come to the park and people are afraid of them. If they are walking, they usually will cut acress the field if they see people walking on the path or see anyone walking another dog. Everyone is afraid of them because they do not look like they can handle the dogs." 

Later I walked with a couple of ladies.. one had been the victim of a Pit Bull attack a few years before (she had just lost her Golden Retriever to cancer). She was very afraid of all bully type dogs (including someone walking a Weimie? <shrug>) but she was not afraid of Atka (the GSD breed ambassador). Both also spoke of the Rottweiler people and they said it always looked like the dogs were inches from escaping because they were huge (FAT) and pulled all the time. They also commented on how much they enjoyed watching me work Atka and they had been watching me all summer. 

So, as Vasko said, it seems that the "really good dog" example DOES have a positive influence. 

I walked with them well into dusk.. sort of funny.. the one lady said she was nervous walking late like that because of the dark and ppl.. but not last night with Atka along. She said, "I will take her and return her later..." I think not. Ha! 

I guess these two Rottweiler dogs and handlers have been a problem for the season.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Last night I worked my dog in an area of the park she has never worked before (next to the little kids play gorund). All kinds of commotion plus baseball playing and a few dogs there.. and my dog worked really beautifully.
> 
> A woman came up to me and asked about training and pointed to her young Pit bull that needed it.. complained of him pulling so I helped her with that. Dog improved almost immediately.. smart cute little guy. I had Atka in a down stay (leash on but not attached to anything).. more example of what a dog CAN do. Lady wished her dog WOULD do that and I said any dog can. It takes a committment to training. Don't know if the lesson on leash handling will stick.. but there was immediate improvement with the puppy. I told her she had a great dog.
> 
> ...


The only problem is that Atka is like a drop of water in a huge unruly ocean. Just not enough drops of water to go around.


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