# Moose switched to Orijen today!



## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

He could care less about that sealed bag of dog food in the picture. What he really wanted was his new antler in my hand. But once I opened up the bag that antler was history. He loved it!

He was eating 5 cups of Wellness Core Just for Puppy daily. Orijen says 2.5 cups daily for his weight but that seems too little. I know the better the quality the less is necessary to feed so we'll see how it goes. 


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

Ammy loves orijen too. In fact, I found one of the cats trying to eat her food this morning...haha


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

4 -5 cups for a puppy of that breed sounds about right. I don't think you will find much of a difference in terms of feeding amount.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Manna loves for orijen as well, when we switch to a new bag of something else for rotation sometimes she misses a meal because she's holding out for it, or when she sees me bring in a bag of Orijen she'll try to hold out for it instead of finishing her bag of something else. 

How big is moose? Manna get 4-5 cups a day depending on what we do for exercise, she a hyper 110# +or- 5 pounds. 


My cat tried to steal it too, we had to start feeding Manna either outside or in a separate closed room because the cat will attack for it.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Moose is just under 70lbs. His ribs are visible at all times though. I can't imagine feeding him just 2.5 cups a day. He got that just for breakfast this morning, plus his Kong which is filled with Addiction Brushtail and Vegetable canned food mixed with PB and topped with some more PB, haha.

It's definitely been proving to require A LOT of calories to keep any meat on the bones of this super active lil Weim!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

yeah according to the bag I'm feeding Manna too much as well. But her ribs are easy to feel so I think that's good right? The vet figures she's at a good size.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

Good luck with the new food! Don't forget to switch gradually ;-)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

BubbaMoose said:


> Moose is just under 70lbs. His ribs are visible at all times though. I can't imagine feeding him just 2.5 cups a day. He got that just for breakfast this morning, plus his Kong which is filled with Addiction Brushtail and Vegetable canned food mixed with PB and topped with some more PB, haha.
> 
> It's definitely been proving to require A LOT of calories to keep any meat on the bones of this super active lil Weim!
> 
> ...


Watson is 40lbs and eats 2.5 cups per day of a food approximately equal in calories and nutrition to Orijen (used to feed Orijen, but the local place stopped carrying it so I switched to Nature's Variety Instinct). It definitely doesn't sound like enough for a dog Moose's size!


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

amount would depend on the dog lol Gem ate 4 cups of orijen a day as a puppy but as an adult eats 2 cups plus about 1/2 cup of something raw. she is 50lbs and very active. I wouldn't dream of feeding her less then that, she is thin enough that most of her ribs are clearly visable despite her short dense coat.


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## Faux (Aug 5, 2013)

Kobi loves Orijen too! We're still in the process of switching him, and it's going REALLY smoothly! I was worried since he didn't do well on other high protein foods.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Yeah, I'm gonna continue to feed Moose 5 cups of kibble a day until I see a reason not to. This kid eats a ridiculous amount of kibble and canned a day - not to mention his salmon oil, supplements, training treats, kong add ins and just because biscuits/meat/other treats. All of that keeps him thin enough to see his ribs. He's just go, go, go. 


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

I was looking at Orijen's website today and saw that they only offer one flavor of adult dog food (Regional Red and 6 Fish). Is this true or did I miss other flavor options?


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

BubbaMoose said:


> I was looking at Orijen's website today and saw that they only offer one flavor of adult dog food (Regional Red and 6 Fish). Is this true or did I miss other flavor options?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Orijen has three "adult appropriate" formulas. Regional Red is one (red meat-based), 6-Fish is another (fish-based), and Orijen Adult (mixed protein, but mostly poultry-based) is the third. Regional Red used to be the most expensive one since it had venison, bison, wild boar, etc. but since they re-did their formulas the 6-Fish costs slightly more and the Red no longer has venison in it.

Also, Moose looks SO DESPERATE for the antler that you're holding in the photo. It's priceless!


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Oh! So funny. I see now. On their website they condensed Adult, Regional Red and 6 Fish in the same section. I'm assuming that this is because I was looking at the feeding requirements, as opposed to the options in general. 

Do you recommend one over the other?

And I know! He is so in love with antlers. I tried to get him to take a picture next to the Orijen bag while holding the antler in his mouth, but he just couldn't deal with that. Ha!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

BubbaMoose said:


> Oh! So funny. I see now. On their website they condensed Adult, Regional Red and 6 Fish in the same section. I'm assuming that this is because I was looking at the feeding requirements, as opposed to the options in general.
> 
> Do you recommend one over the other?
> 
> ...


I don't feed Orijen on a regular basis. My personal preference is Regional Red, but it is because all of the major ingredients come from local meat producers, rather than anything else (I live in the city where Champion is headquartered, and their production facility is just outside the city). But that preference is based entirely on factors other than feeding it to my dog, lol, so I'm sure others will have more helpful opinions. Personally, I would use whichever one my dog did the best on. Which I know is very helpful advice, lol.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> I don't feed Orijen on a regular basis. My personal preference is Regional Red, but it is because all of the major ingredients come from local meat producers, rather than anything else (I live in the city where Champion is headquartered, and their production facility is just outside the city). But that preference is based entirely on factors other than feeding it to my dog, lol, so I'm sure others will have more helpful opinions. Personally, I would use whichever one my dog did the best on. Which I know is very helpful advice, lol.


I'm with gingerkid on the regional red because I only live a few hours north of the plant/city. Though I also like fish formulas for my particular dog based on family experience and wives tales. Newfie dog + fish =healthy basically. And it makes a bit of sense if you think on it, Newfoundland dogs are/were soup pot dogs and did/do eat tonnes of fish in Newfoundland where the breed was developed. 

Other than that if you want to vary the diet from time to time, Acana is also made by Champion and carries many more flavor options. We do a rotation here.


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

I find this an interesting thread as I was feeding Zoey Orijen Puppy and was giving her 2 cups at 31 lbs. All the calculators said she should be getting 1200 calories and 2 cups was around 950. And I now know about the accuracy of the calculators. One of the reasons I stopped feeding her Orijen was because she had terrible gas and her poop stunk. The store was surprised that I was switching her off of Orijen and asked how much I fed her ... I stated 2 cups and their response was people feed their 80lb dog 1 cup a day...that would mean less than 1/2 cup of food a day and I couldn't do that to my dog no matter how good Orijen may be.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

dog person, you can't calculate like that, it really needs to be based on the dog, just because someone's 80lbs dog is eating one cup, in no way means you need to base your dog on that! my 30lbs BC eats the same amount of food as my bosses great dane...my BC is perpetually underweight...the great dane is fat. kibble wise Rusty needs 1-1.5 cups a day and Baby needs 3/4-1 cup a day....Rusty is 15lbs and skinny, Baby is (ideally) 30lbs and fat. 

ya those calculators give odd results! I did one that gave amount needed to "survive" and amount needed to "thrive" , Baby eats less then the amount it gave for her to "survive" and not only is she alive she needs to loose a few lol


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Miss Bugs said:


> dog person, you can't calculate like that, it really needs to be based on the dog, just because someone's 80lbs dog is eating one cup, in no way means you need to base your dog on that! my 30lbs BC eats the same amount of food as my bosses great dane...my BC is perpetually underweight...the great dane is fat. kibble wise Rusty needs 1-1.5 cups a day and Baby needs 3/4-1 cup a day....Rusty is 15lbs and skinny, Baby is (ideally) 30lbs and fat.
> 
> ya those calculators give odd results! I did one that gave amount needed to "survive" and amount needed to "thrive" , Baby eats less then the amount it gave for her to "survive" and not only is she alive she needs to loose a few lol


Shows that every dog is different
Manna, according to the bag, should be eating 4 cups a day...she usually eats 6 and according to the vet looking at her, she could afford to gain a bit.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Yeah, Moose is about half Manna's weight and he eats almost as much as her in Orijen kibble alone. Not to mention all the other things he's fed in a day! And, like I said his ribs show and spine is visible when he lays down. Skinny Minnie. 


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

Be careful overfeeding such a rich food. It can cause loose poo. If this happens to your dog, cut back on the amount of kibble.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

georgiapeach said:


> Be careful overfeeding such a rich food. It can cause loose poo. If this happens to your dog, cut back on the amount of kibble.


If he's barely maintaining his weight on what he's eating now, wouldn't cutting his intake cause him to lose? Weight loss is not something that there's room for with him. 


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## Dog Person (Sep 14, 2012)

Miss Bugs said:


> dog person, you can't calculate like that, it really needs to be based on the dog, just because someone's 80lbs dog is eating one cup, in no way means you need to base your dog on that! my 30lbs BC eats the same amount of food as my bosses great dane...my BC is perpetually underweight...the great dane is fat. kibble wise Rusty needs 1-1.5 cups a day and Baby needs 3/4-1 cup a day....Rusty is 15lbs and skinny, Baby is (ideally) 30lbs and fat.
> 
> ya those calculators give odd results! I did one that gave amount needed to "survive" and amount needed to "thrive" , Baby eats less then the amount it gave for her to "survive" and not only is she alive she needs to loose a few lol


I'm learning about these things!  I looked at a few calculators and this one seemed to be the "best" so I figured I would follow it: http://www.mycockerspaniel.com/mer.htm

Zoey went from 2 cups of Orijen puppy to 2 cups of Pinnacle, she was switched to 4Health and started to look like she was gaining weight (she was also approaching adulthood) so she went to 1 1/2 cups and now is on 1 1/3 cups of Victor, she is now hovering around 35 lbs.


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## Ladidog (Jul 8, 2013)

I know this was posted last May but I just saw it. I was raised with Weimers. And we had some big boys in our days. Well over 100lbs as adults and not one oz of fat on them. All AKC registered. This was back in the 50's and 60's before all this awesome food was available. Mom made their special food. Feeding them and putting meat on those ribs was a challenge because they have huge appetites and energy that if harnessed would power small cities.
Best remembered guess would be about 1/2 large can dog food to 1.5-2C large size nugget kibble 2x daily and if you are still seeing ribs then you might want to up that to a middle of meal day of say 1-2C kibble. And lots and lots of time in parks with huge long fetch sessions. We would get tired of throwing the tennis balls as kids trying to wear our dogs out. 
As you know there is no better dog with kids, they are the most affectionate love bugs out there. And whatever you do, don't show them a mouse. They will break their necks trying to crawl into your pockets.
Marie
PS. Thanks for bringing up some of my best childhood memories.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Ladidog said:


> I know this was posted last May but I just saw it. I was raised with Weimers. And we had some big boys in our days. Well over 100lbs as adults and not one oz of fat on them. All AKC registered. This was back in the 50's and 60's before all this awesome food was available. Mom made their special food. Feeding them and putting meat on those ribs was a challenge because they have huge appetites and energy that if harnessed would power small cities.
> Best remembered guess would be about 1/2 large can dog food to 1.5-2C large size nugget kibble 2x daily and if you are still seeing ribs then you might want to up that to a middle of meal day of say 1-2C kibble. And lots and lots of time in parks with huge long fetch sessions. We would get tired of throwing the tennis balls as kids trying to wear our dogs out.
> As you know there is no better dog with kids, they are the most affectionate love bugs out there. And whatever you do, don't show them a mouse. They will break their necks trying to crawl into your pockets.
> Marie
> PS. Thanks for bringing up some of my best childhood memories.


This thread was created four days ago, not last May, so no worries there. Sweet story, thanks for sharing. Adding a larger more structured midday meal is something I will consider. I used to use a high cal boosting paste with him, so I think I may try that again first. Yeah, they're awesome family dogs. Great dogs in general. Eventually planning to have Moose (my almost 9 month old) certified as a therapy dog, I think he'll love it. 


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

If your dog is having trouble maintaining weight and there is no medical issue, you should try a food that is intended for performance purposes, not any of the Champion formulas because they are generally pretty bad foods. They look pretty but that is about it. If you dig deep you finding nothing but marketing and misleading claims and misleading labels.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> If your dog is having trouble maintaining weight and there is no medical issue, you should try a food that is intended for performance purposes, not any of the Champion formulas because they are generally pretty bad foods. They look pretty but that is about it. If you dig deep you finding nothing but marketing and misleading claims and misleading labels.


Thanks for the suggestion. He just had all of his bloodwork done yesterday and everything came back normal, in two weeks he'll be going back for his fecal and deworming along with a few other annual tests. What's something that you would recommend? Something that's not anywhere near the same tier as Pedigree, which I recall you advocating in the past. 


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## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

Bumper1 said:


> If your dog is having trouble maintaining weight and there is no medical issue, you should try a food that is intended for performance purposes, not any of the Champion formulas because they are generally pretty bad foods. They look pretty but that is about it. If you dig deep you finding nothing but marketing and misleading claims and misleading labels.


What makes Acana & Orijen "pretty bad foods"?


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## ticman (Feb 3, 2008)

Bowie, I agree with your question. I think Orijen is great food. Shadow, 13 year old mini poodle loves the Regional Red and is thriving. Still thinks she is a puppy. She gets 1/4 cup twice a day and has maintained here weight very well. Of course at her age she is mainly sedentary except for outside mail and paper runs.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Some people have issue with Champion foods because of the number of ingredients. Which is fair - not all dogs can handle complex foods, but obviously some can. I'm not sure if this is what Bumper1 is referring to though.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

I have about 30 years experience with hard keeping sporting breeds and I can guaranty that Orijen especially results in nothing but weight loss, excessive drinking and soft stools. The foods moves through too quickly and protein/fat ratios are all wrong and its not that digestible. I am a member of a river retrieving club with hundreds of members and about 750 dogs and every year the health and nutrition surveys show 1 or 2 dogs on Orijen that are owned by novice handlers.

There are much better foods for active dogs and hard keepers like Dr. Tim's, Annamaet Ultra, Red Paw, Precise Endurance and even Nutro's food that is 30% protein and 20% fat, the one in the brown bag.

If you like talking about dog food ingredients I guess stick with Orijen but rarely if ever do dogs stay on that food for a long period of time. It is a marketing company.


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## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

Interesting. I no longer feed Orijen because I prefer to use foods made in the USA, but my miniature dachshund ate it quite often for 2 years and never had a problem with loose stools or weight loss. Increased thirst is something I've noticed when feeding any kibble really.

Orijen formulas are 38/18 protein/fat. Annamaet ultra is 32/20, Dr Tim's momentum is 35/25. Is it the higher fat that makes a food more digestible? I'm not seeing a huge difference in those numbers.

Champion has a pretty slick websites for Orijen and Acana, but referring to them as a marketing company seems like a stretch to me. The average person is probably unaware of those brands.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be a cheerleader for Champion, I'm just interested in learning more about dog food.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

bowie said:


> Interesting. I no longer feed Orijen because I prefer to use foods made in the USA, but my miniature dachshund ate it quite often for 2 years and never had a problem with loose stools or weight loss. Increased thirst is something I've noticed when feeding any kibble really.
> 
> Orijen formulas are 38/18 protein/fat. Annamaet ultra is 32/20, Dr Tim's momentum is 35/25. Is it the higher fat that makes a food more digestible? I'm not seeing a huge difference in those numbers.
> 
> ...


There is more to it than how the label reads. When companies list so many ingredients like Champion, 15 animal ingredients and 4 or 5 sources of peas and beans you know they are trying to hide something or mislead you.

There is no substitute for real world testing. Dr. Tim's teams have won the Iditarod two years in a row now and have placed 4 or 5 other teams in the top ten for years now. Sporting kennels all over the world use it. Annamaet Ultra has been on the market close to 30 years now and has been used in a similar fashion. They are both pro-grade foods. They don't formulate the foods for label readers, as they use larger amounts of fewer ingredients and don't use the common vegetable concentrates like Pea or Potato protein and they are extremely low ash, safe formulas to feed for a life-time. They both have GF foods and both companies make excellent GF foods if that is your preference. Dr. Tim's is a steal on-line, Annamaet is better priced in the stores rather than on-line. For normal pets, Annamaet Encore and Dr. Tim's Kinesis are probably the two best foods for pets on the market.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> There is more to it than how the label reads. When companies list so many ingredients like Champion, 15 animal ingredients and 4 or 5 sources of peas and beans you know they are trying to hide something or mislead you.
> 
> There is no substitute for real world testing. Dr. Tim's teams have won the Iditarod two years in a row now and have placed 4 or 5 other teams in the top ten for years now. Sporting kennels all over the world use it. Annamaet Ultra has been on the market close to 30 years now and has been used in a similar fashion. They are both pro-grade foods. They don't formulate the foods for label readers, as they use larger amounts of fewer ingredients and don't use the common vegetable concentrates like Pea or Potato protein and they are extremely low ash, safe formulas to feed for a life-time. They both have GF foods and both companies make excellent GF foods if that is your preference. Dr. Tim's is a steal on-line, Annamaet is better priced in the stores rather than on-line. For normal pets, Annamaet Encore and Dr. Tim's Kinesis are probably the two best foods for pets on the market.


I'm a bit confused, I looked up Dr Tim's and the only thing I could find for the grain free food didn't look like something that I'd want to feed. First four ingredients are: Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp. Yeah, no thanks...


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> There is more to it than how the label reads. When companies list so many ingredients like Champion, 15 animal ingredients and 4 or 5 sources of peas and beans you know they are trying to hide something or mislead you.
> 
> There is no substitute for real world testing. Dr. Tim's teams have won the Iditarod two years in a row now and have placed 4 or 5 other teams in the top ten for years now. Sporting kennels all over the world use it. Annamaet Ultra has been on the market close to 30 years now and has been used in a similar fashion. They are both pro-grade foods. They don't formulate the foods for label readers, as they use larger amounts of fewer ingredients and don't use the common vegetable concentrates like Pea or Potato protein and they are extremely low ash, safe formulas to feed for a life-time. They both have GF foods and both companies make excellent GF foods if that is your preference. Dr. Tim's is a steal on-line, Annamaet is better priced in the stores rather than on-line. For normal pets, Annamaet Encore and Dr. Tim's Kinesis are probably the two best foods for pets on the market.


How much of that is the dogs themselves, rather than what they are feeding? I mean, I assume Dr. Tim has entered more than just two teams of dogs in the Iditarod, and that other dogs not eating Dr. Tim's have also wont the Iditarod. This anecdotal evidence doesn't provide any substantive evidence that Dr. Tim's is any better than any other food on the market. Not to mention you can't really compare dogs training for running the Iditarod to the average pet dog... and even the average sporting dog. That's a bit like comparing an Olympic athlete to someone who doesn't do sports at all, or who only does them for recreation. Their nutritional needs are NOT the same.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

BubbaMoose said:


> I'm a bit confused, I looked up Dr Tim's and the only thing I could find for the grain free food didn't look like something that I'd want to feed. First four ingredients are: Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp. Yeah, no thanks...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


You're not looking at the big picture (and believe me, I used to do the same thing). Ingredients _are_ important but it's really more about the formulations, the company, testing involved, quality control, etc. Bumper1 could explain the percentages better than I. But you're actually getting more meat from Dr. Tim's food than most of the current so called 'high quality' GF foods.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Jacksons Mom said:


> You're not looking at the big picture (and believe me, I used to do the same thing). Ingredients _are_ important but it's really more about the formulations, the company, testing involved, quality control, etc. Bumper1 could explain the percentages better than I. But you're actually getting more meat from Dr. Tim's food than most of the current so called 'high quality' GF foods.


Yeah, I guess I'm not because my mind is boggled haha. My brain is starting to hurt. I'm gonna dumb it down to the level I'm able to process and ask the question that's most important to me and really all that matters. Orijen is a great food, right?


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

BubbaMoose said:


> Yeah, I guess I'm not because my mind is boggled haha. My brain is starting to hurt. I'm gonna dumb it down to the level I'm able to process and ask the question that's most important to me and really all that matters. Orijen is a great food, right?
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


believe me, I agree... lol. It kind of took me a while to open my eyes. I used to think Orijen was THE BEST! 

I don't think it's 'bad' per say. I think Acana is better personally. I really don't think any pet dogs, or even many sporting dogs, need 42% protein at all. I think the formulas are complex and more-so made to look 'pretty' than anything else. I admit, seeing all those fancy ingredients is what turned me on to the food. I just thought it was sooo great. I've read a few iffy things about Champion, but I can't deny that my dog does very well on Acana Singles line. So I guess if your dog is doing well on it, it's a good for for your dog, but overall Orijen is not what I'd choose first anymore.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

BubbaMoose said:


> I'm a bit confused, I looked up Dr Tim's and the only thing I could find for the grain free food didn't look like something that I'd want to feed. First four ingredients are: Chicken meal, dried white potatoes, dried field peas, dried beet pulp. Yeah, no thanks...
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


LOL, one thing you don't know is how much chicken. However, if you do the math chicken meal which is concentrated is probably 40% of the product by weight.

You have fallen victim to the label games that companies play.

Take Orijen... Something like 13 fresh ingredients are the first right? Well they are 90% water and fresh ingredients can only be about 25% to 30% of the product. Well lets do some math. 10% dry matter times 25% - 30% means that after the food is made, the first 13 ingredients are only 2.5% to 3.0% of the food. Nothing but smoke and mirrors labeling. Orijen does this again by taking one food ingredients like legumes and picking 4 different kinds so they can be labelled separately so they look smaller. Add them all up and they move in the top 5 ingredients once the food is made.

If you think the label accurately depicts whats in the food once its made you are mistaken.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> How much of that is the dogs themselves, rather than what they are feeding? I mean, I assume Dr. Tim has entered more than just two teams of dogs in the Iditarod, and that other dogs not eating Dr. Tim's have also wont the Iditarod. This anecdotal evidence doesn't provide any substantive evidence that Dr. Tim's is any better than any other food on the market. Not to mention you can't really compare dogs training for running the Iditarod to the average pet dog... and even the average sporting dog. That's a bit like comparing an Olympic athlete to someone who doesn't do sports at all, or who only does them for recreation. Their nutritional needs are NOT the same.


Complete Rubbish..since DT hit the performance circuit it is the most popular foods among the top teams. You are just rationalizing.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

This stresses me out. So frustrating. Just trying to do what's best for my dogs, ya know?

I really need to start looking into raw feeding. 


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Are you in America Bumper1? I remember you saying you studied canine nutrition for years and years and was curious if you got all of your information here. 


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

BubbaMoose said:


> Are you in America Bumper1? I remember you saying you studied canine nutrition for years and years and was curious if you got all of your information here.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I am here. I have lived in a bunch of places including Europe but I am in the USA for the foreseeable future.

Don't stress out. If you stick to products that professional use you will be happier. If you read through all the recommendations on sites like this the people use one bag and then switch. How can you form an opinion after 1 month. It is impossible. If I were you knowing how difficult it is to keep sporting breed in good form I would use DT, Annamaet, Precise Endurance or Nutro High Endurance. The last one you can buy anywhere and it is a pretty darn good food.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> Complete Rubbish..since DT hit the performance circuit it is the most popular foods among the top teams. You are just rationalizing.


What am I rationalizing? That not all dogs require performance level foods? That there are other factors that go into a dog team winning the Iditarod? I never once said that Dr. Tims or Annamet are not good foods, so I don't know what you're upset about.

Show me numbers that indicate that one food is the reason that any team won. How many teams enter the Iditarod each year? And can you tell me how many teams are on which foods? Or how many of the top placing teams each year feed Dr. Tim's vs. Annamet over the last five years? The last 10?

All I'm saying is your personal observations are just that - personal observation. This it the internet after all, and you could be completely making everything up, we have no way of knowing. ETA: I am NOT trying to insult you, nor trying to suggest that you are making it up; just that it isn't reasonable to expect random strangers to take your word at face value when the only evidence given to back it up is your own word.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> LOL, one thing you don't know is how much chicken. However, if you do the math chicken meal which is concentrated is probably 40% of the product by weight.
> 
> You have fallen victim to the label games that companies play.
> 
> ...


"INGREDIENTS
Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium."

It's not all fresh. They use meat meals too. From the first 13, there are three meat meals (chicken, turkey, herring). So where does that go with the math that you've done? Second ingredient is chicken meal, and even if all those fresh ingredients move like 10 places down, it's still mostly meat.

And just to add Dog Food Advisor
http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/orijen-dog-food-adult/


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

taquitos said:


> "INGREDIENTS
> Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium."
> 
> It's not all fresh. They use meat meals too. From the first 13, there are three meat meals (chicken, turkey, herring). So where does that go with the math that you've done? Second ingredient is chicken meal, and even if all those fresh ingredients move like 10 places down, it's still mostly meat.
> ...


DogFoodAdvisor is a decent site to browse foods and compare but what he says he somewhat worthless. He does not take into account where a food is made, or their recalls, or their quality control. He is also a human dentist and has no credentials as far as dog nutrition goes. not that that means he can't have an opinion, but it is simply that: an opinion.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

taquitos said:


> "INGREDIENTS
> Boneless chicken*, chicken meal, chicken liver*, whole herring*, boneless turkey*, turkey meal, turkey liver*, whole eggs*, boneless walleye*, whole salmon*, chicken heart*, chicken cartilage*, herring meal, salmon meal, chicken liver oil, red lentils, green peas, green lentils, sun-cured alfalfa, yams*, pea fiber, chickpeas, pumpkin*, butternut squash*, spinach greens*, carrots*, Red Delicious apples*, Bartlett pears*, cranberries*, blueberries*, kelp, licorice root, angelica root, fenugreek, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaf, chamomile, dandelion, summer savory, rosemary, Enterococcus faecium."
> 
> It's not all fresh. They use meat meals too. From the first 13, there are three meat meals (chicken, turkey, herring). So where does that go with the math that you've done? Second ingredient is chicken meal, and even if all those fresh ingredients move like 10 places down, it's still mostly meat.
> ...


Its no different than another food with two or maybe three concentrated protein ingredients that are about 55% of the weight after processing. Orijen has a lot of legume protein that they gloss over by spitting the ingredients, probably about 15% of the stated protein.

All label optics and you fall for it. By the way Marigold is illegal to use in dog or cat food.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> By the way Marigold is illegal to use in dog or cat food.


your source? I can't find reference to that anywhere.


edit: also


Jacksons Mom said:


> DogFoodAdvisor is a decent site to browse foods and compare but what he says he somewhat worthless. He does not take into account where a food is made, or their recalls, or their quality control. He is also a human dentist and has no credentials as far as dog nutrition goes. not that that means he can't have an opinion, but it is simply that: an opinion.


True it's his researched opinion and the site is made to be used as a starting point in research, not the be all and end all. I have spoken to Champion reps and live only a few hours away from a plant owned by them. They are a good company and a good food.


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> Its no different than another food with two or maybe three concentrated protein ingredients that are about 55% of the weight after processing. Orijen has a lot of legume protein that they gloss over by spitting the ingredients, probably about 15% of the stated protein.
> 
> All label optics and you fall for it. By the way Marigold is illegal to use in dog or cat food.


Lentils are the 16th and 18th ingredients, only after all the meat meals do they even get listed. And please show proper calculations of the "probably about 15% of stated protein"?

And again, proof that marigold is illegal to use in pet foods?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

taquitos said:


> Lentils are the 16th and 18th ingredients, only after all the meat meals do they even get listed. And please show proper calculations of the "probably about 15% of stated protein"?
> 
> And again, proof that marigold is illegal to use in pet foods?


I have the AAFCO complete handbook of approved ingredients. Marigold has one approved use and that is coloring in chicken feed. Licorice is not an approved ingredient either and a well known and documented toxin.

If you remove all the fresh protein ingredients and simply eliminate them you will see how peas, red lentils, green lentils and chickpeas all dry ingredients fall on the list. Why not just use one legume? Simple by splitting them you keep them lower on the list. All those fresh meats are 90% water so just disregard them, add the meals together and add the legumes together. You will see its no different than any other dry food with a similar GA.

Label Optics....


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Bumper1 said:


> I have the AAFCO complete handbook of approved ingredients. Marigold has one approved use and that is coloring in chicken feed. Licorice is not an approved ingredient either and a well known and documented toxin.
> 
> If you remove all the fresh protein ingredients and simply eliminate them you will see how peas, red lentils, green lentils and chickpeas all dry ingredients fall on the list. Why not just use one legume? Simple by splitting them you keep them lower on the list. All those fresh meats are 90% water so just disregard them, add the meals together and add the legumes together. You will see its no different than any other dry food with a similar GA.
> 
> Label Optics....


Orijen does fit the standards of AAFCO. I am familiar with ingredient splitting. What difference does it make though? Even if you DID move all the fresh meat ingredients down, it's still a mostly meat based food. I hardly think that Orijen can be considered a subpar quality food.

I think it's not fair to say that Orijen is a bad food at all.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Moose has been on Orijen for two weeks and I'm happy overall with it. He loves the food and has gained some extra weight that he was needing. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Its no different than another food with two or maybe three concentrated protein ingredients that are about 55% of the weight after processing. Orijen has a lot of legume protein that they gloss over by spitting the ingredients, probably about 15% of the stated protein.
> 
> All label optics and you fall for it. By the way Marigold is illegal to use in dog or cat food.


I've been waiting for a reply from Champion based on this idea of ingredient splitting and the possibility that it would bump up the plant derived protein percentage on a dry matter basis. Since I've yet to see any actual figures or calculations to back up your claims I wrote directly to the company. 

They unequivocally replied that their food has a 42% protein content on a dry matter basis and that 98% of this is sourced from animal proteins. Which means roughly 1% of the dry matter protein content of their foods are derived from plant based sources. 

Now, we could debate the veracity of this claim, but without seeing some figures and calculations I am going to have to go with the information they provide. Which very clearly states that they are producing a food with the highest level of dry matter animal sourced protein content on the market.

By the way "illegal" and "not approved" are NOT the same concept.


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