# 6 month old Beauceron biting, barking and general disrespect



## 45LongColt (Jan 14, 2012)

I am having some real behavioral issues that I hope someone can point me in the right direction on here. Sorry for the long intro.

I have a 6 month old Male Beauceron puppy (Ruger) who has since day one been very mouthy, nips and bites constantly. I received him in January at 10 weeks of age. The very first thing I noticed is his persistence in constantly biting your hand, arms, feet and even your face. This was such a concern to me I enlisted the help of a Professional GS training facility to assist with the issue. The training facility train GS for Government Agencies, Military, Police & Guard as well as Show Arena. They came highly recommended by several people including my vet.

Ruger started with a consultation where they witnessed his behavior but labeled it as typical puppy behavior and they would be happy to assist in training him. Ruger has been going to the training for basically 16 weeks now and can sit, stay, down, place, settle, drop-it, take-it, leave-it, walk on a loose leash, shake, hi five and roll over... but he has yet to stop biting.

Throughout the course of training, we kept mentioning the issue with his relentless biting and they kept informing us it would go away and to just ignore the unwanted behavior and it should be pretty much a none issue by the time he is 6 month old. My wife and I didn't quite agree with their recommendation, but did as they instructed hoping they were correct.

Fast forward to today, about 16 weeks later, some $1,200 in training, food and other facility supplies Ruger is now 90lbs and bites every single chance he gets. His biting is not out of aggression, but more him grabbing you and biting down hard and not letting go. He doesn't react to Ouch, Yelp, No, Stop, Quit, Drop it, Leave it or any form of verbal command. Any verbal command and he bites harder and food has zero affect on getting his attention away from his action. His bite is forceful enough to break skin and leave large bruises, punctures and scraps down your skin. Both my arms feel like I have nerve damage due to the force of his bites. Also, when you correct him or swat him, he barks at you, circles you and then bites you from behind, or snaps at you face and chest. He does not give in nor does he back down to correction.

After my final block of training was up I called the trainers out of frustration and on their technique of ignoring the behavior as all the ignoring has basically gotten me a 90 lb beast that refuses to not bite the hand that feeds him. At this point I am almost out of ideas and he is looking more like a liability than a family pet or companion. The trainers have not provided any new solutions other than muzzle him or leave him in his crate until they can come up with a better plan... great life for a 6 month old dog.

I have also tried time outs, turning my back on him, ignoring him, bitter apple, swatting, ouch, yelp loudly... noting works, he just bites harder and comes at you more forceful. My wife has basically given up and wants nothing to do with Ruger. He has been banned from any contact with my kids as I do not trust him not injuring them and fear for any visitor who comes to my home he may grab onto them and then I have a real issue on my hands.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I really love the pup, but my health and that of the family comes first and I feel he will only get worse with time. I certainly believe ignoring the biting was the wrong course of action as he has gotten worse over time, not better. Thanks

45LongColt


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You should not hit your dog, EVER, unless there is a dangerous situation afoot (potential burns, dog fight, etc). The Beauceron is a French breed that was bred for herding and guarding. Swatting a dog with deep (and still RECENT) roots in protective instincts is asking to be bitten (which the dog is doing).

Herding breeds can be surprisingly mouthy, and Beaus are known for being a bit sharp (the French seem to like sharp dogs).

I would continue with timeouts for him, but they need to be done with NO anger, and very matter of factly. Because things are getting so out of hand already, he cannot be allowed the "three strikes" babies usually get. He puts his teeth on you, he goes into his crate for 2-5 minutes. Try again. Lather rinse repeat.

How much exercise is this puppy getting? Not just physical, but mental? They are busy busy BUSY dogs, and need to be mentally and physically stimulated constantly.

A good friend of mine had a Beauceron, and he was an INTENSE dog. She had to buy him his own treadmill to run on, and if she missed a day with him, he was almost uncontrollable. She had to be on top of his behavior EVERY second, and establish very firm rules with him.

He has gone back to his breeder. He was not dangerous, or out of control. She kept him in excellent condition and gave him everything he needed, but he just was NOT the right kind of dog for her. She said that she'll never have another Beauce


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## 3doglady (Jul 31, 2011)

The only suggestion I can think of is to contact someone who has extensive knowledge of the breed; perhaps one of the breed clubs, to see if what you are experiencing is normal and how they recommend you move forward.


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## Cotonlove (Jan 29, 2012)

I understand you love your pup and I am very sorry but to me you have gone WAY above and beyond what can be expected to have a nice family pet. I would look for a rescue or someone who can handle this dog. Your family is, as you say, MOST important.
I believe there is a time when you need to cut your losses. Good luck


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

did you read "the bite stops here" sticky? Did you even do any of that training in this dogs life? Did anyone teach this dog bite inhibition? Or even stimulus control? 

As others have already stated correcting him is not going to work, and it will make matters worse as you have already found out. What Xeph said. This is a hard breed, using force against him will only be met with force from him.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

You say he knows "leave it" command. Now is the time to reinforce this. Some of the real drivey protection breeds are hard dogs. Not aggressive, just persistent, and they enjoy biting. Ignoring doesn't work. Turning your back will cause the dog to jump higher, or bite your legs or shoulders.

With the dog getting away with this, you have a challenge now. Using a leash, each time he is handled, when he begins snapping, leave it!, turn directions and begin heeling. Or a down stay, or any and all commands he knows. Now is a good time to give him a good tug or bite pillow to be allowed and give a command to bite. Most important, is to release if he doesn't know this command yet.

Keep in mind, you won't be training aggression or actual bitework, but a game to use his drive to bite. This will take pressure off of your arms. His tug can be his reward, however don't always give a bite or you will create another issue. Also, be sure you handle the tug or pillow (wedge) around the dog, and just because its there he doesn't get a bite. Same as food rewards, or anything else. 

I'm not sure of your training facilities, but many LE trainers don't worry much about dogs having manners. They do their job, and aren't concerned with them being pets. I want both, and you can have super high drive and manners together. Good luck, you do have a job on your hands.


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## 45LongColt (Jan 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone for your replies. Just to answer some of the questions and provide some additional information to assist in finding a viable solution.

1.) This is not my first dog, have raised 4 other dogs from puppies to adulthood and all were model citizens. (Choc Lab, Golden Retriever, German Shorthair and 2 Collies) Also grew up with Shepard's, Collies and Mutts.
2.) I researched the breed for about 6 months before deciding, called and spoke to all the US breeders (which are only about 6) and got their information about the breed prior to getting on the waiting list
3.) I personally know a woman who lives near me and has 2 Beauceron's (females 11 yrs old and 2 yrs old)
4.) Neither the breeders or the owner listed above state the behavior Ruger is displaying is normal for the breed. The breeder I got him from stated she would have never ignored the biting to begin with, the owner above stated the same
5.) Ruger is exercised 2-3 times a day. I walk him in the morning for about a mile before breakfast. Play fetch, Frisbee and take him swimming in the pond when I get home from work and then walk him at night for about a mile and a half. I did buy him a treadmill, but have yet to be successful in getting him on it for more than 5 seconds.
6.) I do daily training work with him on leave its, drop, touch, place, sit, down, settle and musical chairs. Each one is rotated and I spend no more than about 30 minutes doing the training
7.) Ruger is very good on walks, never pulls, does both loose and force walking perfectly. Does sit/stays and down/stays while on the walk. He stops automatically when we reach any crossing or intersection and will not go the bathroom until we are back home in our on yard.
8.) Ruger is very good in the car, travels in the back seat of my pickup, never stands, never drools and never barks or tries to look out the window. I can leave him in the truck while I shop and he touches nothing and will not leave the vehicle
9.) He is not the same dog outside of the home as he is inside the home. He does not mouth, bite, bark, jump up or show any form of discipline when in stores, on walks, at the training facility or even the children's playground. He is a perfect citizen.
10.) He does not display any aggression whatsoever to other dogs. He plays fair, wrestles but never bites other dogs in our yard or at the park or at PetSmart.
11.) He does not display aggression to people. He does not growl, we can handle his food, take anything away from him we want, pet him while he is eating and kids can even pull his tail and accidentally step on him, no reaction from him.
12.) He is fed only raw diet of Beef, Chicken and Fish no dry dog food, grains or cereals

Now to the issue. He does not Bite like a nip, or lunge at you and it is never based off aggression. Instead it is a very simple walk up to you, grab your arm, hand or leg and then bite down. Sometimes he grabs your forearm and then slides down to your hand and eventually grabs your fingers and then holds onto them and pulls you towards him. This morning I made myself surrender to him just to see what would happen. I woke up walked over to his pen and placed his standard nylon collar on him which is the ritual I do every morning. He is not allowed out until he has a collar on. He came out of the pen and I started getting dressed. He wandered around the room then walked over to me and grabbed my arm. I stood still said nothing and he slide his mouth down to my hand and then grabbed one finger. He then pulled me by my finger through the room to the door. Once at the door he let go and we both exited out the door. Even though there was no correction form me he still bit hard, enough so it left scrapes down my forearm to my wrist and at one point fearful he might break my finger. The entire event seemed almost to me he was trying to tell me something... like, hey I want out... NOW! The issue I have with all of this is sometimes he just grabs and holds on and then slowly he starts to bite harder, then harder until it really hurts and I have to react before injury. I really am besides myself on what he is thinking or wanting... almost like he wants to play, but very rough.

Now to the commands issue. When he does this there is absolutely no command on this planet he will react too. It is almost like he goes deft and hears nothing. Not even treats, a ball, people food, nothing makes him stop. Most time I have to physically remove him by using my hand to remove his jaws from my arm. If I do so and yell at him, he will then bark at me and circle me to try to grab another part of my body, leg, butt, back ... you name it. If I leave the room afterwards he will march around the room like he is frustrated and look for something to destroy like a toy, his food bowl or his dog bed... whatever is available. When I return he is happy to see me and may or may not repeat the same ordeal, just depends on his mood. If I return and immediately redirect him to either outside, dinner or ball or something, its basically all over and things are back to normal.

Now this only happen in our house or yard. I have never had him act like this outside of those areas and he does the same thing to me and my wife and older son (10 yrs Old). He does not bother my two younger sons (3 and 5yrs old). At his size and not understanding the force his bite is having on us, I'm am worried that by us listening to the Trainers in their method of ignoring the issue has caused him to not understand he should never touch or bite a person. He at this point to me seems more confused as to why we yell and get upset over it than him really just wanting to grab our arms.

I did read the article about The Bite Stops Here. Problem is I read it after all of this had happened. Seems I should have been working toward stopping him and teach inhibition to bite over ignoring it, which is what the trainers were adamant about us doing. Now I am worried it is too late to change his actions since he is now almost 7 months old.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

It's never too late to train a dog, or switch trainers. I would contact a behaviorist. This dog sounds frustrated. That level of exercise and training, well, my mellow little beagle mix gets over an hour of walking, an hour of play and 30 minutes of training per day, too. Your dog isn't mellow. Beaucerons are not labs, retrievers or collies. They are some of the highest drive, hardest dogs out there and it sounds like you need better help than you've been getting. Police dog trainers . . . I'm not saying they're bad at their jobs, but they're training GSDs and Mals, very obedient dogs, to do what they were bred to do. You're trying to train a Beauceron to be a family pet. That's a very different thing.

Go to iaabc.org and find a behaviorist in your area.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

It's not too late to teach bite inhibition. I rescued my boy at just over 2 years old and he was very mouthy, he did have SOME bite inhibition but he was still too rough and mouthing was his go to thing when he wanted anything. Using very similar methods to what you'll find in The Bite Stops Here sticky I taught him to be MUCH gentler and that mouthing on me was NOT the way to get what he wants (whatever that may be). He's still pretty mouthy when we rough house and play but it's gentler and if I say "off" he stops what he's doing and backs away until I invite him to play again or simply stop the game and we go do something else.

So it's not too late it just won't be as easy as if you did this when he was younger. My two year old managed it your 7 month old should be able to as well, just have to be consistent and keep it up.


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## 45LongColt (Jan 14, 2012)

Amaryllis, thanks for the link to the behaviorist. I checked it out and there is a very good one within 10 minutes of my home. I think I will call them just for a consultation to see what they are all about. My thoughts are, doing nothing is no longer an option, so this at minimum gives me a starting point.

What I just cant understand is...my dog is very, very smart, I only need to show him something once of twice and he has it nailed down (examples: he turns the tub faucet on and off to get himself a drink, can open all the doors in the house using his paw to move the handle down, when you run around something, he doesn't chase after you, he heads you off by going the other direction, he can open the cabinet using the dish towel hung from the handle to get a treat, then close the door with his muzzle) so if he is this smart that he can actually do stuff like this, why cant he figure out I don't want him to grab my arm?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

I think one of the problems that frequently occurs is that trainers (and owners) sometimes misunderstand the meaning of "ignoring" unwanted behavior. What you want to do is be sure that unwanted behavior is not reinforced. Any reaction to the behavior can be reinforcing. The behavior (especially stuff like mouthing) can be self rewarding - meaning that even if you do nothing, it gives some form of pleasure to the dog. So, instead of simply allowing behavior, what one needs to do is make it clear to the dog that when the behavior happens, the fun goes away -in the form of you leaving or the dog getting a time out. Yelling or trying to physically correct only revs the game up for the dog. And of course you need to also figure out more acceptable ways for the dog to satisfy his need to use his mouth. Some good ones have been mentioned here. And I agree that some in-person help is a good idea, specially with breeds like this.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

The behaviorist should make a difference. While waiting, what would happen if you yelled ouch (a valid response), and then left the room for a minute. Then, when you come back and interact... and he bites again; you yell ouch again and leave for two minutes... and keep increasing the time that you leave, until it's 5 - 10 min. Then, leave him alone to amuse himself. Do this twice a day for three days, consistently, and see if he offers a gentler bite that doesn't bruise or break the skin...


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## 45LongColt (Jan 14, 2012)

Hi Hanksimon,

I can tell you, when I yell OUCH, he continues to bite down and does it harder. I will still need to remove his mouth from my arm by physical force as he does not let go on his own. I have left the room to return just to have him do it again. I have never gone so far as continue more than twice as I might have to wear a coat to cover my arm as by the third time, it will really be hurting. Usually he bites down hard enough to cause scrapes, bruises and swelling... similar to placing my arm in a vice and turning the handle on it. Below is a picture I took yesterday from just one bite, now multiply this 3-4 times with repeated attempts. Any volunteers


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> The behaviorist should make a difference. While waiting, what would happen if you yelled ouch (a valid response), and then left the room for a minute. Then, when you come back and interact... and he bites again; you yell ouch again and leave for two minutes... and keep increasing the time that you leave, until it's 5 - 10 min. Then, leave him alone to amuse himself. Do this twice a day for three days, consistently, and see if he offers a gentler bite that doesn't bruise or break the skin...



This is a good plan, with one thing I would change. I think that time outs are most effective when they are very short. 5-10 minutes and the dog is likely to forget why he's being timed out. The drama is in the leaving. To the OP, wear a jacket or coat if you need to. Twice is probably not enough to get the point across. For a different plan - what would happen if when the dog approached you made your arms/hands unavailable to him? For instance - folded tightly over your chest? It sounds like maybe a fairly deliberate behavior that perhaps you could predict and then avoid, while giving him other ways to tell you what he wants. One thing you could teach is targeting a buzzer or an Easy Button to get your attention. Most dogs love that.


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## 45LongColt (Jan 14, 2012)

I called the Behaviorist and left them a message. I will do the recommendation above for three days and see what happens. As you can see from above, I will certainly need to wear something heavy on my arms as 4-5 times will probably make me bite shy. I have tried folding my arms and he then grabs me in the side, back of thigh or actually goes for my crotch. In those cases, my arms seems a better option to me.

I am confused, what exactly do you mean by targeting an easy button?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

45LongColt said:


> I am confused, what exactly do you mean by targeting an easy button?


Go to Staples and get one of these http://www.staples.com/product_606396. Teach your puppy to target it with his nose or paw so that it "talks" When you see him headed your direction, (before he has a chance to latch on) and reward him by meeting his needs for doing so.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

Pawzk9 said:


> Go to Staples and get one of these http://www.staples.com/product_606396. Teach your puppy to target it with his nose or paw so that it "talks" When you see him headed your direction, (before he has a chance to latch on) and reward him by meeting his needs for doing so.


OMG.... Easy Button training, Pawzk9 does your awesomeness know no boundaries? I don't have a biter but I've got to get one of those buttons and find a use for it in the dogs training...


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## begemot (Feb 1, 2011)

The trainers telling you to ignore his puppy biting isn't actually abnormal, and I don't think it created this problem. Pretty standard approaches include some level of ignoring. Focusing on that as the thing that _caused _his biting isn't going to get you anywhere, because a) it's unlikely, and b) too late to change anyway.



Pawzk9 said:


> I think one of the problems that frequently occurs is that trainers (and owners) sometimes misunderstand the meaning of "ignoring" unwanted behavior. What you want to do is be sure that unwanted behavior is not reinforced. Any reaction to the behavior can be reinforcing. The behavior (especially stuff like mouthing) can be self rewarding - meaning that even if you do nothing, it gives some form of pleasure to the dog. So, instead of simply allowing behavior, what one needs to do is make it clear to the dog that when the behavior happens, the fun goes away -in the form of you leaving or the dog getting a time out. Yelling or trying to physically correct only revs the game up for the dog. And of course you need to also figure out more acceptable ways for the dog to satisfy his need to use his mouth. Some good ones have been mentioned here. And I agree that some in-person help is a good idea, specially with breeds like this.


Everything Pawzk said. It sounds like you may have been inadvertently reinforcing his biting. You said that you can see that he wants something when he bites you. That means that he's learned he can get what he wants (rewarding responses) by biting. The rewards may not always be obvious to you. But the loud "Ouch!" can be rewarding. Or any reaction at all, if he just wants your attention. Or just the act of biting itself, like people have said. Play, food, out, attention, more fun biting -- he should never get anything in exchange for biting, except responses that you absolutely know are not rewarding, which people have given you. (And not hitting, ever.)

It's great that you're getting a behaviorist. Other good suggestions are to teach replacement behaviors you can use to redirect him when you anticipate that he's going to bite. It's always easier to teach a dog to do something than not to do something. You should also work on proofing his "leave it." And Juliemule gave the idea to give him an appropriate outlet for biting. You said you're worried it's too late at almost 7 months. It's definitely not. Also, it does look like he has learned _some _bite inhibition.

And, one last thing, running on a treadmill before 1.5 years is supposed to be bad for them.


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## 45LongColt (Jan 14, 2012)

I'm definitely going to Staples today at lunch to get an easy button. I told my wife about it and she thought I was crazy... we'll see. If everyone is right, and I suspect they are, he will love hitting the button to hear the noise. I do have one question on using it, do I reward him with a treat when he hits it, or is the sound it makes the reward?

I have an appointment with the behaviorist on the 26th (boy they aren't cheap!). We spoke for about 30 minutes, they asked lots of questions and said they wanted to actually see him in action. They also believe the previous trainers were recommending the correct action of ignoring unwanted mouthing and biting, but felt we may have been enforcing it incorrectly.... and he may be interpreting what we are want and what he thinks we want as two different things. They also said at 7 months, he's no longer a puppy and we should be reinforcing good behavior with other stimulus outside of treats. They also recommended more exercise... which maybe tough as I already spend about 95% of my at home time working or exercising him. They recommended doggie daycare or perhaps a full time walker to come and exercise him thoroughly in the middle of the day. Another thought they had was his diet. Seems raw has a lot of protein and more protein means more energy, which translates into more exercise to wear him out.

I took him on a two hour walk last night. We walked through rain, thunder, lightning and pushed on covering our entire development (about 4 miles in total). His tongue was dragging when we got home, as was my butt. He drank some water and I left him to rest for about 15 minutes while I took a shower. I figured he would have been worn out... wrong, he bit me first change he could get... over I have no clue what, I just walked into the kitchen and picked up my phone, he got up walked over slowly and grabbed my forearm. I was really surprised, thought for sure he would be too tired to even bother, I was wrong. I pulled my arm out and left the kitchen for 3 minutes. Returned, same thing, this time I wanted to remove his collar, he grabbed my arm as I attempted to unbuckle it from his neck. I walked away again. Came back after another 3 minutes, tried again, same reaction. I tried this at least 8 times, each time extending the duration, about the 8th time, he allowed me to get it off without biting me.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

NRB said:


> OMG.... Easy Button training, Pawzk9 does your awesomeness know no boundaries? I don't have a biter but I've got to get one of those buttons and find a use for it in the dogs training...


Most dogs think it is a great game! I know one lady who uses it with her therapy dog. She'll ask the dog if a trick was hard and the dog hits the button.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

45LongColt said:


> I'm definitely going to Staples today at lunch to get an easy button. I told my wife about it and she thought I was crazy... we'll see. If everyone is right, and I suspect they are, he will love hitting the button to hear the noise. I do have one question on using it, do I reward him with a treat when he hits it, or is the sound it makes the reward?
> 
> I have an appointment with the behaviorist on the 26th (boy they aren't cheap!). We spoke for about 30 minutes, they asked lots of questions and said they wanted to actually see him in action. They also believe the previous trainers were recommending the correct action of ignoring unwanted mouthing and biting, but felt we may have been enforcing it incorrectly.... and he may be interpreting what we are want and what he thinks we want as two different things. They also said at 7 months, he's no longer a puppy and we should be reinforcing good behavior with other stimulus outside of treats. They also recommended more exercise... which maybe tough as I already spend about 95% of my at home time working or exercising him. They recommended doggie daycare or perhaps a full time walker to come and exercise him thoroughly in the middle of the day. Another thought they had was his diet. Seems raw has a lot of protein and more protein means more energy, which translates into more exercise to wear him out.
> 
> I took him on a two hour walk last night. We walked through rain, thunder, lightning and pushed on covering our entire development (about 4 miles in total). His tongue was dragging when we got home, as was my butt. He drank some water and I left him to rest for about 15 minutes while I took a shower. I figured he would have been worn out... wrong, he bit me first change he could get... over I have no clue what, I just walked into the kitchen and picked up my phone, he got up walked over slowly and grabbed my forearm. I was really surprised, thought for sure he would be too tired to even bother, I was wrong. I pulled my arm out and left the kitchen for 3 minutes. Returned, same thing, this time I wanted to remove his collar, he grabbed my arm as I attempted to unbuckle it from his neck. I walked away again. Came back after another 3 minutes, tried again, same reaction. I tried this at least 8 times, each time extending the duration, about the 8th time, he allowed me to get it off without biting me.


That sounds like some progress. And for the easy button - yes, you do treat when you are teaching it. Later the reward can be what the dog is trying to tell you he wants. Once you have a cue for the easy button, you can ask him to do that when he's thinking about grabbing you.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Are you doing any type of mental stimulation besides going for walks? Extra exercise never hurts, but the smart breeds really need some work to keep them occupied.

Dog daycare or hiring a walker.... Use caution. You have a dog that is biting you, and breaking skin. If this happens to someone while out walking, well you know the consequences. Even this doesn't sound like aggression, that may not be what a stranger sees. It is so easy to get in a mess now with a dog.


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## Lilly111 (Feb 1, 2013)

Hi, I joined the site just to respond to you, I know exactly where you are coming from and have a similar problem I think the key is exercise, my puppy is only 6 months old and I have had a lot of advice bout not giving him to much exercise but out of desperation allowed him to set the exercise boundaries just to see how much time he felt he needed, generally when he has had enough time running around exploring off the lead (this is essential a walk just doesn't cut it for a Beauceron ) then he tends to calm down and stay close by at this point we have a slow calm walk home, once home he has to wait calmly until I'm settled then he gets a treat that he can chew on this seems to calm him further. To be fair I can open the door and he can take himself off into the woods for as long as he likes but he doesn't seem to count this as the ' as allocated exercise time' if he does not feel he has had enough exercise then he can be a real handful. If you can find the time to explore exactly how much exercise your dog needs to calm his energy down and you feel you can meet his needs them I'm sure the problem will resolve. This is a much love breed here in France but Beauceron are what they are, highly intelligent, resourceful, loyal herding dogs and the more willful they are the more you need to challenge their intelligence and give them something to do you and you dog might both enjoy agility training as to be successful you and your dog will have to work in close partnership


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

My friend has one if you would like her email addy PM me for it.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

45LC- short answer- I think it will get better, keep up the obedience, maybe get into a dog sport. His behavior sounds like my Giant Schnauzer adolescent female-- that was her typical greeting walk up to you and take your entire forearm into her mouth and bite down. Tail wagging. She was one Amped dog-- all my long sleeve shirts have a hole in the sleeve from her grabbing and pulling, by way of greeting. She was not just a surf the counter, steal the meat outa the frying pan dog-- she would take the entire (cast iron frying ) pan off the burner to her bed (silly dog) to eat the steak in comfort. And eat holes into our couch. And chomp through every leash we had for fun (we had to use chains for awhile)-- she went to a very fair Boot camp-- by Fair I mean they did Schutzhund as well as Service dog training so focused on fair, and turning out user friendly dogs-- she is still not perfect but so much better (shes 3.5 now) part of this is age -- they just age out of Some of this, but keep up the training, and the outlets... I discovered she loved the water so 2 hours to the Ocean we went, for 2 years-- what a work out! And yes she is still mouthy and nippy espec when excited. I am happy to say that all the work with her turned into bite inhibition-- she had been provoked in a bad situation and did bite but barely graze the skin, fingernail scrape sorta injury -- so while I think she will always be mouthy -- at least she has the bite inhibition ingrained....


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## 45LongColt (Jan 14, 2012)

Hi everyone,
Well thought I would post a response since it has been about 6 months since I originally posted this thread and lately I have been getting lots of emails asking what became of my dog.

We did go down the Dog Therapist route who basically said, the issue was his ability to understand rules, boundaries and general respect to people. When he is in a situation with another dog, he fully understands the rules and provides great respect to more dominant dogs. I've never seen him mouth another dog and get away with it. We had him in a group with 2 other Beauceron's and he learned very quickly what was tolerated and what would get him instant correction from the other two dogs. Within 15 minutes Ruger knew the boundaries and acted politely, although very excitedly to the other two dogs. It was kind of a wake up to see he actually had the ability to understand what is accepted and what is not based on his interaction with the other dogs. Mind you, one was larger and one was smaller and he was still outgunned by them if he pushed the limit. Her recommendation was to have him visit another trainer she knew who had great experience with dogs like Ruger (intense, dominating, lack of Respect toward Humans) and see what he though. She really did not want to push the boundaries with Ruger due to his size and forcefulness.

So I called him and he had me bring Ruger to see him. He is a world class Schutzhund Dog trainer and one who deals with dogs of this energy level. The first visit was just that, he only wanted to observer Rugers manners and reactions to me in his training field. We walked, played fetch and I gave him many commands and together we spent about 2 hours just interacting. His evaluation was that Ruger has no concept of who is the boss, what is expected of him and what the rules are with regard to interacting with people. Now this might sound strange, but the trainer would tell me in advance what Rugers reaction would be to simple tasks and situations before we would present them to Ruger and low and behold, Ruger did exactly as the trainer said he would do. He said Ruger was a highly intelligent dog and that he had the ability to make up his own rules because I was not communicating them effectively and since Ruger thought he was the boss my rules just didn't matter.

The second session was testing Rugers knowledge base. Ruger excelled and was able to master just about anything we wanted him to do such as sit stay, down stay, come, hand signals, settle, leave it, take it... you name it, he can do it and repeatedly.... however, he still had the disposition that besides all that, he could just do what he wanted, when he wanted... why.... because there was no correction or consequence for his action. It had nothing to do with exercise or anything else other than he did not think anything would become of his disrespect to people, unlike with other dogs that provided instant correction. That was confirmed by adding another dog to the session, his unruliness ended as soon as another dog was placed into the mix that did not accept his behavior and would provide him with instant correction for not acting appropriately.

So on to the training. Now I know I will get lots of feedback on this, but it was the route I decided to take and regardless of all other advice and types of training we had provided, it was this or get rid of him as I had no more patience for his behavior and given his size and power, it made him a huge liability for me and my family or anyone around him for that matter. The third session Ruger was in for a rude awakening. This was the day Ruger was to learn there are such things as correction and consequence for his behavior. He would get positive reinforcement when he did the right thing but also negative correction when he did not act appropriately. This day was tough on both Ruger and myself as the trainer took ZERO crap from Ruger… none! Everything was very simple, non elaborate but highly effective.

What we did was provide Ruger with a prong collar and a very heavy 6’ Kong leash. We just put it on him and he was allowed to do what he wanted while the collar and leash were on him. Anytime he did something inappropriate, he got instant correction in the form of a very sharp snap of the leash. Ruger would yelp and drop to the ground and down stay. Once he was in that position, he was rewarded with a treat and petting. If he tried to mouth me, he got another sharp snap of the leash and would again go to down position. This went on for hours, amongst other training like jumping up, barking … etc. Anytime he would act disrespectfully, he was confronted with the same correction from the prong collar and leash. Needless to say, he slept the entire hour drive home as he was whipped.

Back at the home front training continued. Ruger was not allowed out of his crate unless he had the collar and leash on him at all times. No one other than me was allowed to interact with him and if I could not be with him at every second, he was to go back into his crate. The point of this was so I had 100% control of his actions at all time. If he did something inappropriate, I could very quickly provide the correction with the snap of the leash. There were never any commands, I was not to yell, not say NO, nothing, just the leash snap was all that was needed for Ruger to understand, that the inappropriate action will not be tolerated. This carried on for the week and I went back each weekend for follow-up training. In the mean time, he still had no interaction with my family or anyone one outside the Trainer or myself... until a time came, when he fully understood what the rules were and that he would follow them to the letter.

After about 4 weeks of training and working with him we saw a dramatic improvement, not just in the mouthing but everything related to his training. He would do his commands twice as fast, would not hesitate when called to COME, he would enter the Trainers facility and instantly go to Down/Stay and wait for the trainer to come out. We continued this training for about 2 full months. Anytime he was out of his crate, he had collar and leash on, even in the yard, playing fetch you name it, and I kept it very consistent in I did not allow him once to get away with any bad behavior.

Fast forward to today, he is now just over 1 year old, weighs in at 126 lbs and is one truly impressive looking boy. He is my best friend, he no longer wears the collar and is the most people oriented Dog you will ever meet. He goes just about everywhere with me and basically wants to sit right up against me... my wife says if he were to get any closer to me he would be inside me. Ruger is great with our kids as well as all those in the neighborhood, I never need to worry about him mouthing or biting anyone, as he now knows his place within the community. He goes on trips with me to most of the stores in my area (Lowes, Garden Centers, Hardware Stores, Pet Stores & Ice Cream Shop) and everyone at those establishments know him and are always excited to see him. He even has his favorites he hunts down just because they keep doggie bones for him.

The best thing I did was search for an alternative method outside those normally offered. I do not think this is the solution for all dogs or for my breeds for that matter, just that it was what my dog needed. He needed to know who was the boss and what the rules were... period. Once that was mastered, everything else came very quickly. He is very polite, he sits at door ways and will not enter until you do, he sits and waits for his food across the room and does not move until I tell him to eat, he drops to the floor EVERY time I say down, he walks on & off a leash perfectly, never pulls, never walks more than 15 feet ahead or behind me and will instantly sit at any road crossing, stop sign or anytime I just decide to stop walking. 

For anyone interested in seeing a picture of Ruger, here he is with my oldest son at Christmas; he even gave Santa a great big kiss. Notice, my former disrespectful dog sitting still, attention to me, with a stranger in a beard, non leashed


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Handsome guy! Although I no longer use correction-based methods, you are not alone on this Forum. Do what works to define the rules and boundaries, then remain positive. Now that you've gotten Rugers under control, I suggest that you explore the "light" to find a similar trainer (maybe agility?) that uses clicker training. 

The pinch collar is a bit more straightforward, especially to save a dog from the pound, and clicker training can take a little more strategy, planning, and time. But the pinch collar tells the dog what he can NOT do, while clicker training improves your ability as a trainer to teach the possibilities of what he can do. Plus
you can use it on small puppies to get them started right...


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

45LongColt said:


> Hi everyone,
> Well thought I would post a response since it has been about 6 months since I originally posted this thread and lately I have been getting lots of emails asking what became of my dog.
> 
> We did go down the Dog Therapist route who basically said, the issue was his ability to understand rules, boundaries and general respect to people. When he is in a situation with another dog, he fully understands the rules and provides great respect to more dominant dogs. I've never seen him mouth another dog and get away with it. We had him in a group with 2 other Beauceron's and he learned very quickly what was tolerated and what would get him instant correction from the other two dogs. Within 15 minutes Ruger knew the boundaries and acted politely, although very excitedly to the other two dogs. It was kind of a wake up to see he actually had the ability to understand what is accepted and what is not based on his interaction with the other dogs. Mind you, one was larger and one was smaller and he was still outgunned by them if he pushed the limit. Her recommendation was to have him visit another trainer she knew who had great experience with dogs like Ruger (intense, dominating, lack of Respect toward Humans) and see what he though. She really did not want to push the boundaries with Ruger due to his size and forcefulness.
> ...


CONGRATULATIONS you made it through! 
I know there is alot of debate on the Prong and that kind of training, but as I found with my giant schnauzer and me- honestly-- being so Soft in personality (polar opposite of Husband, but I am primary for the dogs).. that style of training works really well for that kind of Sharp, dominant, has no idea of the rules/ basic respect for the people.....
Great Photo!


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

First, Congragulations, sounds like a job well done and now I'm relaxing on recliner with buttered popcorn.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

wvasko said:


> First, Congragulations, sounds like a job well done and now I'm relaxing on recliner with buttered popcorn.


Oh, come on. We're not _that_ bad are we? An unwillingness to advise someone with an out of control pet to correct/smack/bop and leash pop on the internet and with sight unsee and a disbelief in dominance theory isn't the same thing as being 100% opposed to some correction and negative feedback for a dog who can handle it, at the direction of a professional who has seen the dog and trained the owners. 

I use no reward markers, interuptors, leash corrections on SOME of my dogs (Jack would be crushed and never recover) and the occasional e-collar (Bug,though that's not correction based - she's deaf, it's just paging/communication). 

I'm not EVER going to recommend those things to someone who comes in, though, because them getting bitten in the face or traumatizing a fearful dog is not something I want to be responsible for, and since I can't see the dog I don't know if it's fearful or not. I also can't tell them HOW to appropriately use a training collar. And? I'm not a professional and neither are most people here. Add in that most people here have problems that in NO WAY require any sort of correction or aggressiveness from the owner and it's just a dumb thing to recommend. 

My defaults for advice are pretty much 'see a professional' or 'reward the positive'. Because that's SAFE for the dog and the owner. 

'I saw a professional and he gave me a prong and showed me how to use it to correct my dog who is out of control to the point of being dangerous' just isn't the same thing as 'alpha roll or hit your 8 (10, 12) week old puppy for being mouthy'.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Oh, come on. We're not _that_ bad are we?


Hey, where did I say anybody was bad. I just enjoy my recliner and eating buttered popcorn.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Hey, where did I say anybody was bad. I just enjoy my recliner and eating buttered popcorn.


Personally I am in my Lazy-Boy with 2 cats (just ate a cheese omelette)....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

That's what I'm talkin about.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Glad to hear it all worked out and kudos to you for sticking with your dog in a tough situation! I'm certainly not going to tell you you did anything wrong since it sounds like everyone has come through better for the experience. I would never recommend those tactics mostly because if they're asking an internet forum they're looking for a DIY fix and the only responsible way to implement a program like yours is through a qualified professional. Every dog is different, mine (and many) would crumble under a program like that. But it sounds like just what the doctor ordered for Ruger.

Congratulations!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

wvasko said:


> (...) sounds like a job well done (...)


errrr .... well, sounds like a job done


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> 'I saw a professional and he gave me a prong and showed me how to use it to correct my dog who is out of control to the point of being dangerous' just isn't the same thing as 'alpha roll or hit your 8 (10, 12) week old puppy for being mouthy'.


Well the above pretty much is on the button. I just don't understand rolling or jumping up and down on puppies who in reality as I've said many times can do no wrong.

I'm pleasantly surprised (even if I did waste a good box of popcorn)


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

45LongColt said:


> Anytime he did something inappropriate, he got instant correction in the form of a very sharp snap of the leash. Ruger would yelp and drop to the ground and down stay. Once he was in that position, he was rewarded with a treat and petting. If he tried to mouth me, he got another sharp snap of the leash and would again go to down position. This went on for hours, amongst other training like jumping up, barking … etc. Anytime he would act disrespectfully, he was confronted with the same correction from the prong collar and leash. Needless to say, he slept the entire hour drive home as he was whipped.


While I appreciate the outcome, there's still something about the method that makes it difficult for me to rejoice.

When our favourite whipping boy CM does similar stuff, people are up in arms. Yet when a member does it, people pat them on the back ?


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Context is important. CM has one tool for all dogs, and influences other people. LongColt had an out of control dog that needed to be rehabilitated or leave. Rehabilitation was under direction of an expert, and many of us don't like the method. However, LongColt tried gentle methods and our suggestions with no success. He found a professional who could see the dog and made suggestions that were successful, so that the dog was rehabilitated rather than sent to the Pound because he was too intense.

LongColt went all the way to rehabilitate his dog, trying a number of things. He didn't give up and he was successful. That's important, and we applaud it.
I went back and read the posts and the advice. Given the advice, the results, and LongColt's available resources, from a practical standapoint, I don't see a better outcome


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

petpeeve said:


> While I appreciate the outcome, there's still something about the method that makes it difficult for me to rejoice.
> 
> When our favourite whipping boy CM does similar stuff, people are up in arms. Yet when a member does it, people pat them on the back ?


It's not a question of anybody rejoicing, it's a feel good program for a dog that does not have to face the PTS end. There are many out there that are/can be fixed but head for the bridge instead.

As I've said before I'm CM neutral so no whipping needed from me.


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