# Truth About Dog Food



## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

If you don't mind, I'd like to post an article my friend wrote about dog food. It's long, but it explains alot.

http://ashleyspets.com/DogFood.html

Dog Food ~ Decoding Fact from Fiction

The great dog food debate- the good the bad and the ugly. How does one choose? If you follow your television you may believe that the companies that advertise on there have foods full of tasty meat and chock full of great vitamins and minerals, but is it true? Not so much. In the world of dog food it is buyer beware, yet the average person picking up a supermarket brand of dog food is unaware of the hazard. This does not make them bad owners – they are simply uninformed owners. Who knew you needed to research dog food more diligently than your own food?

While it is true many dogs have lived out full life spans on Ol’ Roy or a similar low-quality kibble for years, it does not mean it is the best choice. It would be like you going out to eat at your local McDonalds daily. You wouldn’t eat junk food on a daily basis and neither should your pet either.

Better quality foods are highly digestible which means there is less waste to come out! Poor quality pet foods contain fillers, like corn. It makes your dog feel full but is highly indigestible. Feeding a premium food means that your dog will eat less, IAMS suggest that you feed a 25 lbs dog 4 cups of kibble. On a holistic brand like Solid Gold, you are likely to feed 1.5 cups or less! Holistic brands cost more but last longer than any supermarket brand. Since your pet is healthier by feeding a premium brand, it also means fewer visits to the vet.

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Veterinarians and the Pet Food Industry~
Veterinarians and nutrition is a touchy subject for many. I love my vet. She is great, when it comes to the overall well being of my dog. When it comes to nutrition, I respect her, but I do not want her suggestions. When I go to my doctor, and I have a nutrition based problem I see a specialist. The same is true in the animal world. While some vets can specialize in certain areas like nutrition, which require hours of research and practical work the average vet has 3-5 hours of nutrition studies per semester. A drop in the bucket in comparison to the countless hours studied on the medical health of animals. While I will not take the statistics offered from vet schools without a grain of salt, “a typical veterinary medical student spends about 4,000 hours in classroom, laboratory, and clinical study”1 That’s a lot of education, and without specializing, very little of it is on food. So why do so many people exclusively trust their vet’s opinion? They are professionals and are devoted to the care of our pets but are sorely lacking when it comes to a pet’s diet.
Without doing your own research you honestly would not know what is in the food you feed your precious cat or dog. Also, they get kickbacks in selling food whether it be IAMS, Science Diet or Hill’s Veterinary Formula (made by Science Diet). “Charles Danten was a veterinarian in Montreal for 20 years. Now he's a journalist who writes about the ethics of his former profession. He told Marketplace that the mark up on premium pet food accounted for as much as 20 per cent of his income.”2 Unless your pet has a serious problem that is untreatable in any other form, there is no reason to use Hill’s. For short term problems there are benefits, but it has a large price tag for the daily feeding of mediocre ingredients for the life span of your pet. If you understand the animal’s problem, you can often find a better food that will also help your pet. Every vet diet I have looked at contains mediocre to bad ingredients. Some have reasons for working like the K/O kangaroo and Oatmeal from Eukanuba’s Vet line (most dogs have never been exposed to kangaroo and can not be allergic to something they have never been in contact with) and others like the gastro formulas are just a load of bad ingredients that do not seem to have any calming properties. There is little reason for a dog to be on any vet formula for life. With some care and research you can find better foods that will also do the same job if not a better one without a prescription. It does not matter which brand a vet pushes, Hill’s, Medi-cal or Eukanuba’s veterinary diets. They all have a similar jumble of less than desirable ingredients.


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

Where to Find Better Food Choices~
Ingredients, ingredients, ingredients. While you may not read the label on the box of chocolate chip cookies you buy for yourself, it is imperative you do read the ingredients on what you feed your pet. Just because the bag is pretty and says on it “formulated by a vet” or “now with extra meat” it does not mean it is actually good. Good food does not come from the supermarket, or big chains like Walmart, and often not from large pet store chains. The big chain stores for pets are wising up, and they realize people are getting better informed. I have found great holistic brands along side poor quality brands that make me want to choke; the selection is often not so great. Feed stores are your friend. Many carry only great foods and have knowledgeable employees that can help you wade through the ever expanding world of dog food and its jargon. This does not mean that every employee working in a feed store is helpful mind you. If you go in armed with knowledge you can figure out either on your own or with some help what it is you need for Fluffy or Fido. Also, please keep in mind that not every food works with every dog. You may not even realize that the food is not ‘perfect’ until you find the one that is. When you do though, and get less stool, and firmer stool, you will be cheering so loudly the neighbours may be calling Bellevue for you. So just because the first better food you tried is not working perfectly it is no reason to get discouraged and discount all better quality foods because of it. It simply takes a little time. I should also add that no matter what you choose to feed, you should read the label from time to time. Ingredients may change a little or vary the order in which they are listed. For a sensitive dog, you may see some negative effects when you did not purposely change food on your pet. Manufacturers do not have to inform you of a change, although many do when making a significant one. Just something to think about once in a while. 

Allergens: Environmental and Food~
Allergies in dogs are becoming more and more common these days. On your own without allergy testing you will not know if it is environmental or if it is the food. Even if you do allergy test and pinpoint environmental allergies some of them are near impossible to deal with alone like grass. Your dog may end up needing allergy shots to control it if it is that severe. In some cases it is not an allergy it is an intolerance, but that will not make your pet any less uncomfortable.3 The easiest thing to start with is eliminating the most common sources of allergies in food. Wheat, corn, soy, chicken, and beef are fairly common allergy causing foods. There are others, and any dog could be allergic to preservatives in food or something far less common. If you start by looking for a food without the main causes of allergies you may find you cured your problem on your own. A dog can not be allergic to something they have never been exposed to, so if you choose a food with a more obscure meat like bison, or a fish along with a grain like oatmeal you may find that your furry friend eases down on itching and paw nibbling without major intervention. Keep in mind that food based allergies can take up to 6 months to disappear from a dog’s system, even after no longer coming in contact with the allergen or intolerance. In part it may be a waiting game, along with the possibility of environmental allergens. You may be able to minimize some of the problems with a better food though which is a great step in the right direction.

What is Really in the Dog Food Bag? 
What does that dog food label really mean? Your dog is a carnivore. Ideally you want a food that is high in meat and low in filler. Foods like Science diet that start with corn indicate you paid for mainly indigestible filler in a pretty coloured bag. You want a meat source, and even better if it is ‘meal’ though it is not required. Meal is meat without water weight, so there is ‘more’ meat being accounted for. Many good foods have more than once source of meat though so do not fret. A couple of meat sources at the top of a label meal or not is an excellent start. You also want to be able to identify them. Poultry is bad, it could be who knows what, versus chicken or turkey is just fine. By-products can be a touchy subject with some people. They are not just the internal organs of the animal in question. I only know of one dog food off hand that clarifies that they are using just the internal organs. While an animal in the wild would eat most everything, by-products in dog food are mighty scary. In the wild the dog would be able to eat the whole animal- organs and the meat. In "say a 40 pound bag of dog food of which the 20% animal protein included consists of only chicken feet, heads, bones and feathers and maybe some livers and hearts. If at all, because chicken livers and other organ meats are used separately as pet food ingredients or also sold for human consumption. Have a look around at the pet store some time and see how many treats and canned foods made
with chicken liver."4 So you end up with a bag of dog food that is mainly the left over garbage that had no where else to go. Your dog is not getting the usable meat they would in the wild along with the extras such as organs.


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

The way things are worded for definitions by AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials) http://www.aafco.org can be very sneaky. Read the definitions of what ingredients are and “ask yourself why something is worded in just that specific way. Words and phrases that are present in the definition of one item, but absent in another do tell a lot about what could or could not be in a product.”5 If you do not understand what something is, it is often something you wish to avoid. Unspecific ingredients such as ‘animal fat’ are pretty frightening. It could be derived from the 4 D’s of the slaughter industry- dead, diseased, disabled, or dying prior to slaughter and could be part of a cow or road kill from how the AAFCO definition is written. It truly bothers me to know that “companion animals from clinics, pounds, and shelters can and are being rendered and used as sources of protein in pet food.”6 Poorer quality grains that are being ‘reused’ from human industry are also common and low in nutritional value. Lastly, just because something is a ‘meal’ does not make it good. There are many that may be in poor quality foods including meat and bone meal- which is all made from parts that can not be used for human consumption, corn gluten meal – which has some protein but not enough to be anywhere near a top ingredient along with as many as 10 other really poor quality ‘meal’ choices. Just use common sense. If it sounds mysterious, or it is unspecific, walk away. This site tells you the AAFCO definitions and a little people perspective on all the worst ingredients in pet food if you would like more specific education on what pet food can be. http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=badingredients 

Better Ingredient Choices~
Now that is a lot of ingredients to condemn, so what does that leave us with? You want a good source of protein as your first ingredient and possibly second and or third as well depending- for example bison, salmon meal, turkey, chicken meal. If you remember from earlier ‘meal’ is the water removed, so a few sneaky companies may put a good source of meat followed by a grain. And if it is not a specific meat meal, it means you have a food with more grain than meat. How is the average person supposed to know this? They often do not. And it is how companies get away with more fillers than meat. 

A few foods contain no grains but they are higher in protein than most dogs need, so next there will be a grain. Good ones include brown rice, oatmeal, millet, barley.. There are more but that is a start. White rice is not evil, it is just not as healthy, and is preferable if it is a little further down the ingredient list. ‘Ground’ or ‘meal’ is okay too, but avoid things like ‘brewer’s rice’. It is a by-product of the brewing industry with so little nutrition it is practically worthless. You do not need 3 forms of rice in one food, it is overkill on filler. And sweeteners are not helpful either. Menadione is a vitamin many better companies are removing from their food as it may cause health problems.

Many senior dog foods and weight loss foods are often jam packed with fillers. In diet food the dog is pooping out what it can not digest and is not taking in as many nutrients or calories. You would be easier on the dog to feed a better quality food in a smaller amount, and supplementing with low calorie vegetables to fill the dog up. Senior foods are trying to give a dog less calories. But by packing it full of fillers what exactly are you paying for? Your dog to poop more than it should need to? Better companies do have better senior foods, but you really need to read the labels to find something that is worth the cost. 

Multinational Corporations and the Pet Food They Make~
Many of the main stream dog food companies that are the most well known also own human manufacturing companies. Nice way to reuse your by-products for free. Food is not marketed to your pet; it is with you in mind. Your dog does not care what the bag looks like. These big businesses are making a profit from what should really be going to waste. What big businesses own pet food companies?

Nestlé - Alpo, Come 'N Get It, Mighty Dog, Chef's Blend, Fancy Feast, Friskies, Kit 'N Kaboodle, Deli-Cat, and Nestlé Purina
products such as Dog Chow, Pro Plan, Beneful and Purina One

Colgate-Palmolive - Hill's Science Diet Pet Food

Del Monte - 9-Lives, Kibbles `n Bits, Cycle, Gravy Train,
Nature's Recipe, and Reward

Procter & Gamble - Eukanuba and Iams

Mars - Pedigree, Advance, Cesar, Whiskas and Sheba
Another leading pet food, Nutro, is not a multinational
company.7 

Except for Nutro, all the brands of dog food listed contain waste ingredients from human production of food. Nice cheap way to recycle and it is your pet that gets the short end of the stick. Most of these brands advertise so they are in your home and in your head. It is easy to believe that they are great from what it says on the front of the bag along with the pretty pictures of happy dogs.


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

How to Analyze the Label~
Tired yet? Let us look at some common foods pushed often at unknowing consumers and why they are not so great. I am picking a common bag of food from a few of the big names. Some of their foods fare a little better some a little worse, but none are actually good. So within the range of looking at these it shows you an awful assortment of what is actually made by these companies. 

Science Diet (adult Large Breed)- Corn meal, chicken by-product meal, soybean meal, animal fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), chicken liver flavor, vegetable oil, dried egg product, flaxseed, glucosamine hydrochloride, L-carnitine, chondroitin sulfate, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid, minerals (salt, calcium carbonate, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, calcium iodate, sodium selenite), rosemary extract, beta-carotene, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin E supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (a source of vitamin C), niacin, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement)

The first ingredient is corn which is very indigestible and the bulk of what the food is- filler. Chicken by-product meal means that there is no actual real source of meat in this food since we talked earlier about what this actually contains. And soybean meal which is a “poor quality protein filler used to boost the protein content of low quality pet foods”8 Lastly of the main ingredients there is an unspecific fat that could really contain anything. This is a food pushed on television- often pushed by vets. And it is mainly garbage.

Let us look at another. Purina has high television coverage, commercials of happy bouncing dogs. So what is actually in it?

Purina (Beneful Original)- Ground yellow corn, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, whole wheat flour, beef tallow preserved with mixed-tocopherols (source of Vitamin E), rice flour, beef, soy flour, sugar, sorbitol, tricalcium phosphate, water, animal digest, salt, phosphoric acid, potassium chloride, dicalcium phosphate, sorbic acid (a preservative), L-Lysine monohydrochloride, dried peas, dried carrots, calcium carbonate, calcium propionate (a preservative), choline chloride, vitamin supplements (E, A, B-12, D-3), added color (Yellow 5, Red 40, Yellow 6, Blue 2), dl-Methionine, zinc sulfate, glyceryl monostearate, ferrous sulfate, niacin, manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, biotin, thiamine mononitrate, garlic oil, copper sulfate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, folic acid, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), calcium iodate, sodium selenite

Another food that is mainly corn. Coincidence? No, it is cheap filler. You make more money being cheap. More chicken by-products rather than real meat, and more corn in an even less protein filled form. Whole wheat flour is generally so processed most of the nutrients are gone “flour ingredients are simply the leftover dust from processing human food ingredients”9 And the last main ingredient beef tallow which is a flavouring agent for low quality food and very cheap to obtain. 

How about Eukanuba. They are so large they own the Superdogs franchise. They are a subsidiary of IAMS. Vets push the food often. They have to be good, right?

Eukanuba Original (Adult Maintenance Formula)- Chicken, chicken byproduct meal, corn meal, ground whole grain sorghum, ground whole grain barley, fish meal, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of vitamin E, and citric acid), brewers rice, natural chicken flavor, dried beet pulp (sugar removed), dried egg product, brewers dried yeast, potassium chloride, salt, sodium hexametaphosphate, calcium carbonate, flax meal, choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, dl-methionine, vitamin E supplement, beta carotene, zinc oxide, ascorbic acid, manganese sulfate, copper sulfate, manganous oxide, vitamin A acetate, calcium pantothenate, biotin, rosemary extract, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate (source of vitamin B1), niacin, riboflavin supplement (source of vitamin B2), inositol, pyridoxine hydrochloride (source of vitamin B6), vitamin D3 supplement, potassium iodide, folic acid, cobalt carbonate 

They actually use chicken which is a step up from the foods we have looked at, but when the water weight is removed it sits behind the corn meal. Which means this food is mainly chicken by-products like the others. It contains corn meal as cheap filler like the other foods so far. Ground whole grain sorghum is a good carbohydrate, but it has very poor digestibility making it a poor choice as a main ingredient in a dog food. The barley would be good if the food was not already full of so many fillers and the fish meal is unspecific which means the quality is anyone’s guess. And if it is not human grade it has been preserved with ethoxyquin which does not have to be mentioned on the label- it is banned from human consumption, but it is alright for your dog? “A dog is consuming up to 300 times more ethoxyquin than allowed for people. (depending upon the weight) Also many dog food manufacturers are not always listing it as an ingredient on the packaging, but sometimes merely print ‘E’.”10 Lastly chicken fat is fine. But out of that ingredient list only two of the top ingredients are actually good. And this is a food people assume is great.


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

How about a ‘vet diet’ for comparison of how great the ingredients are for the prices one pays. It should also be mentioned it is far more difficult to locate the ingredient lists for prescription diets than normal food.

Hill’s Science Diet Canine I/D (gastro formula for sensitive stomachs)-
Ground Whole Grain Corn, Brewers Rice, Dried Egg Product, Chicken By-Product Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Pork Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), Soy Fibre, Dicalcium Phosphate, Chicken Liver Flavor, Iodized Salt, Potassium Citrate, Choline Chloride, Calcium Carbonate, Potassium Chloride, Soybean Oil, vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Taurine, minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Ethoxyquin (a preservative).

How is corn sensitive on a stomach? It is not. They are using a mediocre quality rice, and dried egg product is a stool hardener which is really high on this ingredients list. Chicken by-products are the ‘meat’ and then more corn, but at least the fat is specific. This is barely a food in all honesty. Some days my compost bucket contains more nutritional value than what is listed here. It would be far cheaper and better food for you canine pal to cook beef and rice for a sensitive tummy. 

Some of the worst of the worst. Ol’ Roy. Cheap food shows in its ingredients. 

Ol' Roy (Premium)- Ground yellow corn, meat and bone meal, ground whole wheat, soybean meal, wheat middlings, animal fat (preserved with BHA and citric acid), chicken by-product meal, rice, animal digest, salt, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, choline chloride, ferrous sulfate, zinc oxide, vitamin E supplement, niacin, copper sulafate, manganous oxide, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, menadione sodium bisulfite (complex source of vitamin K), calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, riboflavin supplement, cobalt carbonate, folic acid, sodium selenite

I have seen worse, but seriously, if one were to look at the ingredients they should honestly wonder without anyone’s help. Corn and meat and bone meal as discussed earlier (the 4 Ds of the slaughterhouse) that could be goats, road kill or technically euthanized pets. The wheat would be okay if it was not already full of fillers, the soybean meal is a poor by-product that is more filler and the middlings are floor sweepings with no nutritional value; super cheap filler. Last main ingredient is animal fat which has been gone over more than once and I am sure you now know what it is by now.

That was a lot of learning through bad foods. Let us look at a good one for comparison. 

Timberwolf Organics (Wilderness Elk Dry)- Fresh elk, salmon meal, millet, sweet potatoes, oats, flaxseed, carrot, watercress, spinach, celery, parsley, fennel seed, wild salmon oil, atlantic kelp, alfalfa, potassium chloride, amaranth, currants, cranberries, pears, figs, thyme, anise seed, ground cinnamon bark, fenugreek, garlic pieces, sunflower seeds, sesame seeds, apples, chicory root, spirulina, choline chloride, lecithin, probiotics: (lactobacillus acidophilus, lactobacillus casei, lactobacillus lactis, bacillus bifidum, streptococcus diacetilactis, bacillus subtillus), taurine, mixed tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), lysine, zinc proteinate, iron proteinate, manganese proteinate, thiamine, methionine, carnitine, niacin, vitamin A supplement, calcium pantothenate, riboflavin supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, iodine proteinate, vitamin D3 supplement, biotin, folic acid, pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), cobalt proteinate, papain, yucca schidigera extract

The differences are noticeable immediately. While the Elk is not the heaviest ingredient when the water is removed, Salmon is the number one and is an excellent protein source. Millet is a good grain highly nutritious, and sweet potatoes are a healthier carbohydrate than most. The elk is a good meat and rare enough in foods that it might help with a dog with allergies. Oats are fine, and flaxseed helps digestion and is an essential fatty acid. It should also be noted it does not have any stool hardeners. On a good food the dog should be able to produce great poop on its own. Too much fibre can also cause loose stool resulting in poorer food having more than one stool hardener in it.

So where should you go from here? You can research on the internet or look through some books; there are some great ones on the subject of what is in dog food. If you have never been to a feed store look through your yellow pages. At least go browse, look at some labels up close and personal. You may find some decent brands in your local Petco, but you need to know your labels to decipher the good, the bad, and the ugly. Also, there are a few brands that make holistic great quality food, and a second line of mediocre food like we have just talked about. They can be sneaky about it, and I do not like the idea of the cheap food and the good food by one brand, but just keep an eye out for it. It is not all equal.


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

Rating Your Current Kibble~
Want to rate your dog’s current food? This kibble rating system has been sent around some. The original author is Fredalina and I hear she would like to make some changes to it, but as it stands now it easily can show good from bad. Although I would love to see a revised edition reflecting higher scores for fewer grains if she finds the time.

How to grade your dog's food:
Start with a grade of 100:

1) For every listing of "by-product", subtract 10 points

2) For every non-specific animal source ("meat" or "poultry", meat, meal or fat) reference, subtract 10 points

3) If the food contains BHA, BHT, or ethoxyquin, subtract 10 points

4) For every grain "mill run" or non-specific grain source, subtract 5 points

5) If the same grain ingredient is used 2 or more times in the first five ingredients (i.e. "ground brown rice", "brewer's rice", "rice flour" are all the same grain), subtract 5 points

6) If the protein sources are not meat meal and there are less than 2 meats in the top 3 ingredients, subtract 3 points

7) If it contains any artificial colorants, subtract 3 points

8 ) If it contains ground corn or whole grain corn, subtract 3points

9) If corn is listed in the top 5 ingredients, subtract 2 more points

10) If the food contains any animal fat other than fish oil, subtract 2 points

11) If lamb is the only animal protein source (unless your dog is allergic to other protein sources), subtract 2 points

12) If it contains soy or soybeans, subtract 2 points

13) If it contains wheat (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to wheat), subtract 2 points

14) If it contains beef (unless you know that your dog isn't allergic to beef), subtract 1 point

15) If it contains salt, subtract 1 point

Extra Credit:

1) If any of the meat sources are organic, add 5 points

2) If the food is endorsed by any major breed group or nutritionist, add 5 points

3) If the food is baked not extruded, add 5 points

4) If the food contains probiotics, add 3 points

5) If the food contains fruit, add 3 points

6) If the food contains vegetables (NOT corn or other grains), add 3 points

7) If the animal sources are hormone-free and antibiotic-free, add 2 points

If the food contains barley, add 2 points

9) If the food contains flax seed oil (not just the seeds), add 2 points

10) If the food contains oats or oatmeal, add 1 point

11) If the food contains sunflower oil, add 1 point

12) For every different specific animal protein source (other than the first one; count "chicken" and "chicken meal" as only one protein source, but "chicken" and "" as 2 different sources), add 1 point

13) If it contains glucosamine and chondroitin, add 1 point

14) If the vegetables have been tested for pesticides and are pesticide-free, add 1 point

94-100+ = A
86-93 = B
78-85 = C
70-77 = D
69 = F 

This is a list of some foods to give you an idea on how they score. I did not add them up, so if the math is not correct, I was not responsible, though I appreciate having the list to use.

Eagle Pack Holistic: 119 A +
Wellness Super5Mix Chicken: 117 A+
Solid Gold Bison-123 points A+
Eagle Pack Natural: 94 A
Canidae-119 points A+
Natural Balance Duck and Potato-114 points A+
Eagle Pack Large and Giant Breed Puppy: 94 A
Timberwolf Organics Lamb and Venison-136 points A+
Innova-117 points A+
Eagle Pack Holistic Chicken-114 points A+
Chicken soup-113 points A+
Flint River Ranch: 92 (non-specific fat source) B
Eukanuba Natural Lamb and Rice-87 points B
Nutro Natural choice Lamb and Rice-85 points C
Nutro Chicken, Rice, & Oatmeal: 85 (non-specific fat source) C
Eukanuba Large Breed Adult: 83 C
Iams Large Breed: 83 C
Iams Lamb Meal and Rice-74 points D
Science Diet chicken adult maintainance-45 points F
Bil-Jac select-37 points F
Science Diet Large Breed: 68 F
Pro Plan All Breed: 68 F
Pedigree Complete Nutrition: 42 F
Pedigree Adult Complete-14 points F
Ol Roy-9 points F 
Purina Beneful- 17 points F 


It is now up to you to make a decision on what to do about you and your furry friend and their nutrition. There is another world in home cooked meals, and yet another in raw. But neither subject am I very versed in, so I hope someone else will step up to either challenge. Dog food is a confusing world, but I hope you have read enough to at least get a grip on where to begin.


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## pupskersandhutch (Nov 20, 2006)

I was just cusious what about IAMS puppy chow is that bad too?


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Right off the bat, I can tell you that Corn is not always a cheap filler. It is also not the high allergen most people think it is. My FIL's dogs were on Dog Chow, which has corn as the first ingredient. One of the dogs started to be itchy. When he asked someone at Petco what might be causing her to itch, the response he got was a Corn allergy. So, he was ready to jump on the Corn allergy bandwagon too. However, I got him to try Pro Plan (which has Corn in it also, although it's not the first ingredient), and his dog's "allergy" has all but cleared up. It is of my belief that it was the bulk of the Corn in the Dog Chow that was drying out her skin and therefore, making her itchy. But, notice when she was fed a food that was comprised of more meat, the "allergy" cleared up. Therefore, it wasn't a true allergy. I think this is the case with many of those alledged Corn allergies- and not just because of my pesonal experience.

By-products are not "human waste products" and are just as expensive as regular meat. If you don't believe me, ask some one who feeds RAW how much a turkey neck costs compared to turkey meat. The price is about the same when you figure it out per pound. And that is another thing, why is it By-products in kibble are supposedly horrid for your dog, but yet they are perfectly fine to feed a dog on a RAW diet? There really is no difference, so why all the disdain for by-products?

Also, you can get out all the food rating systems you want, but it only tells me one thing- your opinion. I have seen this particular system passed around countless times and I can tell you it will never tell you the best kibble for your individual dog. That you can only find through trial and error.

One more thing, Iams might tell you on the bag to feed 4 cups, but how many people actually need to feed 4 cups of Iams? Please...My dog never ate that much on Iams- even as a puppy. So, that particular point is worthless. I also thnk a lot people forget that Iams is worlds above Dog Chow in ingredients, but yet it's name is uttered with the same disdain. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Lastly, it is entirely some one's opinion what ingredients are of a "higher" quality and what ingredients are of a "lower" quality. It seems it is your opinion that almost all grains, corn, and by-products are of "low" quality. This is fine, but do not presume to pass it along as fact because what you think is not necessarily what's true.

Here's another website worth checking out:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/dogfoods.html

Just MHO,
Darcy


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

IMO RAW is best. I just don't have the time to feed it, and with a picky eater it's not fun.

The difference between feeding "by products" in a raw diet and kibble is that the "by products" in your raw diet are FRESH. By products in kibble could be anything.

http://rakunna.com/diet.shtml

"The next thing I tell them is that rich smell when you open the bag comes from restaurant grease. This one amazed me. I was working at a restaurant and happened to be out back when they picked up the grease. This huge 200gal tub had been sitting out back for a few weeks in the summer. Every couple of days, when they decided to clean the fryers the grease was dumped into this tub. Sometimes it was closed. Then one evening a guy came in a big red truck. He hooked the grease to a wench and it poured out into this dumpster like truck.

I asked what happened to it. "Oh, we take it and render it. Boil it down and clean it up since it's rancid now. Then we sell it to pet food companies who use it for the fat in the food." Later I found that they also spray it across the finished kibble to cover it in a good taste.

Sounds appetizing. "


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## pupskersandhutch (Nov 20, 2006)

WOAHHH that's so intense I'm so glad I asked about my puppies dog food.This is my first dog that I have gotten not living with my parents and my other dogs have food that the vet has put them on so I have not had that problem in the past. So since I have gotten my new one I went with IAMS cause that's what my mother said to go with IAMS soo I went with IAMS. I also realized I don't like fillers in my meat too. I only eat meat that is pure such as Boar's head that only use natrual ingredents and not any fillers. I obviously don't want my dog eating that garbage thanks for the heads up on that.

Love Megs!


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## Ibizan (Nov 17, 2006)

If I found anything to give my dog an allergy in it's food, I'd make sure it was not in anything else I fed. It's not just going to work completely to cut back on something, eventually they can develop the allergy again through continuous feeding of the same thing.

I feed a prey model diet, and my dogs are extremely healthy. I don't like kibble or canned food, because I don't know what is in it, and I wouldn't eat it myself. Unless it's an extremely high quality food, I won't trust it. I know exactly what is going into my dog's food, and I know exactly what went into the things I feed them. My vet even switched her dog's to the diet mine are on.

I don't think it is ENTIRELY someone's pure opinion on high and low quality. There's no debate on the fact that greasy fast food is low quality compared to organic meals. A dog's body can't tolerate everything you put into it, just because they are a dog, and it's food. And not every dog is the same either. It's better to be safe and learn from examples and experience, than sorry because you thought it was a mere bandwagon effect.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Ibizan said:


> If I found anything to give my dog an allergy in it's food, I'd make sure it was not in anything else I fed. It's not just going to work completely to cut back on something, eventually they can develop the allergy again through continuous feeding of the same thing.


But see, there it is, you say it yourself...Reducing the amount of the allergen in the food won't help. However, My FIL's dog didn't have an allergy and changing foods proved it. I wonder how many other dogs out there with "owner-assumed" corn allergies are misdiagnosed? And, since when did Petco employees become veterinarians?? I guess I'll have to ask to see a degree and a liscence next time I'm there...(not to mention it would make a significant cut in my budget to get free veterinary care! )



> I feed a prey model diet, and my dogs are extremely healthy. I don't like kibble or canned food, because I don't know what is in it, and I wouldn't eat it myself. Unless it's an extremely high quality food, I won't trust it. I know exactly what is going into my dog's food, and I know exactly what went into the things I feed them. My vet even switched her dog's to the diet mine are on.


Well, of course you wouldn't eat dog kibble yourself! That would make you a dog if you did! LOL I'm glad you've found what works best for your dogs.

However, since you clearly state you don't know what's in the kibble, I'm very confused by this next set of statements...



> I don't think it is ENTIRELY someone's pure opinion on high and low quality. There's no debate on the fact that greasy fast food is low quality compared to organic meals. A dog's body can't tolerate everything you put into it, just because they are a dog, and it's food. And not every dog is the same either. It's better to be safe and learn from examples and experience, than sorry because you thought it was a mere bandwagon effect.


Ahh! See this is where the pitfall comes in...you cannot compare dogs to humans because we are totally different species. We have totally different food tolerances and needs. No human could possibly live a long, healthy life on an all-meat diet. We require proper amounts of grains, fruits, and veggies in our diet. A dog- although they too require carbohydrates- could probably live a decent life on an all-meat diet. So comparing fast food to dog food is not an equal comparison.

IT IS indeed entirely someone's opinion about whether an ingredient or a food is high or low quality. What I might think is good quality or low quality is completely different than the next person, and it's also based on different criteria. So, yes, it really is someone's opinion- nothing more, nothing less. Taking someone else's opinion as fact is where the bandwagon starts and the road to learning and researching ends.

And, like I said previously, I'm very confused that you would make these statements when you say above you don't know what's in the kibble. If you don't know what's in the kibble to begin with, how can you say that the quality of ingredients isn't entirely someone's opinion? I'm sorry, but these are the fallicies in your statements...


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

springermom said:


> IMO RAW is best. I just don't have the time to feed it, and with a picky eater it's not fun.
> 
> The difference between feeding "by products" in a raw diet and kibble is that the "by products" in your raw diet are FRESH. By products in kibble could be anything.


Oh, and the the by-products that go into kibble are not fresh before they are ground and put into the kibble?? I think you really should reassess this statement. The by-products that go into kibble are just as good a quality as those that are fed RAW.

And, no, by-products cannot be anything. There are only certain things they can be by law. They cannot contain feathers, horns, hooves, etc. Maybe you should look at a definition of by-products to refresh yourself.

I don't know how many times I have repeated that by-products are not the horrid things that they have been made out to be. This all part of the misinformation that is floating around the internet that everyone is taking as fact.



> "The next thing I tell them is that rich smell when you open the bag comes from restaurant grease. This one amazed me. I was working at a restaurant and happened to be out back when they picked up the grease. This huge 200gal tub had been sitting out back for a few weeks in the summer. Every couple of days, when they decided to clean the fryers the grease was dumped into this tub. Sometimes it was closed. Then one evening a guy came in a big red truck. He hooked the grease to a wench and it poured out into this dumpster like truck.
> 
> I asked what happened to it. "Oh, we take it and render it. Boil it down and clean it up since it's rancid now. Then we sell it to pet food companies who use it for the fat in the food." Later I found that they also spray it across the finished kibble to cover it in a good taste.


This is anything but true. Someone may have said it, but it doesn't make it true. There is no kibble out there- even the very low quality ones- that use restaurant grease. They cannot by law do that as it is not within proper manufacturing practices.

I onced opened a bag of Pro Plan Puppy that smelt like fish. I suppose you would tell me that it was from the oil in vats used to fry fish- which is rediculous. It smelt like fish because it has fish meal in it, as does any food that has any kind of fish in it. You cannot escape it. The food will smell like something. Just because it's not a smell we prefer, does not mean that it has "rancid" restaurant grease sprayed all over it. This is a rediculous claim if I ever heard one! But, what's sad is there will be many who will take this little "story" of yours and believe it as fact without investigating for themselves.

Not to mention there are holes in that "story". I don't know about you, but every restaurant I have been to uses Canola, Vegetable, or Peanut Oil- not lard. Now, what are the fat sources listed in dog food? Animal Fat!!


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

pupskersandhutch said:


> WOAHHH that's so intense I'm so glad I asked about my puppies dog food.This is my first dog that I have gotten not living with my parents and my other dogs have food that the vet has put them on so I have not had that problem in the past. So since I have gotten my new one I went with IAMS cause that's what my mother said to go with IAMS soo I went with IAMS. I also realized I don't like fillers in my meat too. I only eat meat that is pure such as Boar's head that only use natrual ingredents and not any fillers. I obviously don't want my dog eating that garbage thanks for the heads up on that.
> 
> Love Megs!


No, Iams is not garbage IMHO. If your pup is doing well on it, there is no reason to switch- especially since puppies' stomachs are very sensitive. I would not be "guilted" into switching because of misinformation and the push to feed a more expensive product. However, if your pup is truly not doing well, please do switch. But, do not base your decision on others' opinions. You need to base your decision on your dog and nothing else.

Darcy


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

Iams is garbage. Do the research. Look at the ingredients.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

springermom said:


> Iams is garbage. Do the research. Look at the ingredients.


I have done the research and can find nothing in Iams that is any worse than any other food. Yes, it has corn. Yes, it has by-products. These are not the horrible things people think they are. Maybe YOU should do the research!


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

I don't knowingly feed my dogs low quality food.  I don't need to research, I've done that, extensively.

Companies like Iams, Purina, etc. are out to make money. Thats why you see the funny commercials and the beautiful bags. In order to make up for that advertising they have to put lower quality ingredients into the food. They NEVER use organic ingredients, they ALWAYS use fillers, etc. And the whole "puppy formula" thing is a scam in itself.

Iams® Lamb Meal & Rice Formula 
Lamb Meal, Brewers Rice, Corn Meal, Ground Whole Grain Sorghum, Corn Grits, Chicken By-Product Meal, Ground Whole Grain Barley, Chicken Fat (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Dried Beet Pulp (Sugar Removed), Fish Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor, Dried Egg Product, Potassium Chloride, Brewers Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Hexametaphosphate, Vitamins (Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A Acetate, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Thiamine Mononitrate (Source of Vitamin B1), Vitamin B12 Supplement, Niacin, Riboflavin Supplement (Source of Vitamin B2), Inositol, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (Source of Vitamin B6), Vitamin D3 Supplement, Folic Acid), Fish Oil (Preserved with mixed Tocopherols, a source of Vitamin E), Choline Chloride, Minerals (Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Manganese Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganous Oxide, Potassium Iodide, Cobalt Carbonate), Monosodium Phosphate, DL-Methionine, Rosemary Extract

Corn meal & corn grits, brewers rice (the lowest quality of rice), grain, and barley.... thats a heck of alot of grains and carbs you dog DOESNT NEED. Where does it go? Poop. Lamb meal, that's not bad. I'll give them that one. Natural chicken flavor, what the heck is that? Dried egg product? Another what the heck. How about fresh eggs from pheasant or quail? Salt? Just plain old iodine filled salt? Why not sea salt? Brewers yeast - again, anything brewers is low quality and for alot of breeds yeast = yeast ear infections. Gross!!!!

I'll compare it to my current food. 

Timberwolf Organics Wilderness Elk and Salmon™ Canid Formula 
Ingredients:

Fresh Elk, Salmon Meal, Millet, Sweet Potatoes, Oats, Flaxseed, Carrot, Watercress, Spinach, Celery, Parsley, Fennel Seed, Wild Salmon Oil, Atlantic Kelp, Alfalfa, Potassium Chloride, Currants, Cranberries, Pears, Figs, Thyme, Anise Seed, Ground Cinnamon Bark, Fenugreek, Garlic Pieces, Sunflower Seeds, Sesame Seeds, Apples, Chicory Root, Spirulina, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Probiotics: (Lactobacillus Acidophilus, Lactobacillus Casei, Lactobacillus Lactis, Bacillus Bifidum, Streptococcus Diacetilactis, Bacillus Subtillus), Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a source of vitamin E), Lysine, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Manganese Proteinate, Thiamine, Methionine, Carnitine, Niacin, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Iodine Proteinate, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Biotin, Folic Acid, Pyridoxine (a source of vitamin B6), Cobalt Proteinate, Papain, Yucca Schidigera Extract.

Notice all the fresh vegetable sources? With Fresh elk & salmon meal being the first ingredients? Dogs are not vegetarians remember, the bulk of the diet should be meat not corn. 

If you can knowingly feed purina or whatever it is you feed, great for you. I prefer to give my dogs something healthier since they can't chose for themselves.


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## all4thedogs (Sep 25, 2006)

Another thing that is commonly misunderstood, is that foods list the ingredients in order of the amount that is in the food. BUT, if they ingredient is repeated (even in different forms) there is a good possibility that ingredient would be much further up the list. For example Iams has corn listed 2 times, in the first 5 ingredients. This means there is really a LARGE amount of corn in this food. Maybe even more then the Lamb. This goes the same for all ingredients, not just corn. Rice is often broken down into different types too. Personally if an ingredient is going to be repeated, I want to see it in a form of protien (Chicken, Chicken Meal).


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

springermom said:


> I don't knowingly feed my dogs low quality food.  I don't need to research, I've done that, extensively.
> 
> Companies like Iams, Purina, etc. are out to make money. Thats why you see the funny commercials and the beautiful bags. In order to make up for that advertising they have to put lower quality ingredients into the food. They NEVER use organic ingredients, they ALWAYS use fillers, etc. And the whole "puppy formula" thing is a scam in itself.
> 
> ...


See that is exactly the kind of thing I mean. It is entirely YOUR OPINION that Purina and Iams are low quality foods and not healthy- nothing more, nothing less! You cannot push your opinion as fact because it is not. No, Purina and Iams are not out just to make money. If I buy a bag of Pro Plan on sale and then get it at a bulk discount on top of that, I actually get it for less than cost. How does a company make all this money your talking about like that? I suppose you would say they make up for it by using "lower" quality ingredients. However, I hate to burst your little bubble, but they get the same quality ingredients from the same places as the "higher" quality companies. 

Also, if you are against advertising, you may want to rethink what your saying about Purina and Iams being so horrible because they advertise. Guess what?! I have recently seen ads for Solid Gold, Eagle Pack, and various other "higher" quality brands as well plastered all over magazines. And let's not forget Nutro who almost always gets a full page ad or two in Dog Fancy and Dog World as well as the AKC Family Dog and Gazette!!! So, the old advertising excuse for hating Purina and Iams is no longer valid! If you dislike brands that advertise, you might as well start switching your dogs from the "higher" quality brands as well because they've gotten on the advertising bandwagon too!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I think this thread illustates exactly why you can't and shouldn't rely on anyone's opinion about what you should feed your dog. The best advice, for your own peace of mind is, to do your own research, and contact the manufacturer of the brands you are looking at. Base your decision on what you personally believe is best for your dog based and the research that you gather. It's nice that others have studied what is and what is not good in dog food, but after it is all said and done, the only opinion that matters is your own. So don't be afraid to call a manufacturer, or speak to multiple vets, or numerous reputable breeders to form your own opinion.


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

Actually I don't think Nutro is any good.

It's not opinions.... it's the truth. If you want to buy into the purina commercials, that's fine. I'm just glad I don't have to be the one picking up the stinky poop.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

all4thedogs said:


> Personally if an ingredient is going to be repeated, I want to see it in a form of protien (Chicken, Chicken Meal).


Then, how come NutriSource is considered to be such as "crap" food? First two ingredients are Chicken and Chicken Meal, but everyone says it's a "junk" food too. I'm just pointing this out because you cannot have it both ways and it just goes to show that the quality of a food or an ingredient is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone has their own OPINION of what is a good food or ingredient, but that can never be FACT- which most people try to pass it off as around here. This is how all this misinformation get's floated around and what I am so tired of.

I'm not going to sit back anymore and watch people bash certain brands because it is their OPINION that they are "junk", "crap", or "low" quality and they want everyone to believe it as FACT. I've seen it. Someone comes on this board and they are feeding a certain brand. Then, without out actually knowing how their dog or pup is doing on the food, everyone proceeds to jump on their case about how they are not doing right by their dogs feeding such a "low" quality product- they are feeding "garbage", you know. How do we know? We can't see their dogs. We don't know how well or how poorly they are doing on the food. Only the owner can decide what is good for their dogs and what is not. Yet, everyone presumes to "guilt" a lot of people into spending a lot of extra money on these so-called "higher" quality foods (which IMHO aren't necessarily any better) because if they don't, they are bad owners, ignorant, stupid, etc. This needs to stop!

If someone is looking for a new food, fine. Give them your suggestions. But, do not proceed to pass off your opinion as fact! I'll freely admit that there are certain foods I don't like. However, I will not tell some one they are feeding "garbage" if they happen to be feeding one of those foods. Think of how that must make some one feel...To be told you are feeding your dog "garbage" and all you ever were trying to do is feed him something he does well on. People can make their own choices and do their own research if they think they want to try their dog on a "higher" quality food. They don't need for you to tell them they are feeding "garbage", "crap", "junk", etc (which is just of your opinion anyways) to start that process. They can look at what everyone has suggested and do some asking around from there.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I think this thread illustates exactly why you can't and shouldn't rely on anyone's opinion about what you should feed your dog. The best advice, for your own peace of mind is, to do your own research, and contact the manufacturer of the brands you are looking at. Base your decision on what you personally believe is best for your dog based and the research that you gather. It's nice that others have studied what is and what is not good in dog food, but after it is all said and done, the only opinion that matters is your own. So don't be afraid to call a manufacturer, or speak to multiple vets, or numerous reputable breeders to form your own opinion.


Amen. Exactly!


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## all4thedogs (Sep 25, 2006)

LabLady101 said:


> Then, how come NutriSource is considered to be such as "crap" food? First two ingredients are Chicken and Chicken Meal, but everyone says it's a "junk" food too.


I never said anything about NurtiSource and actually had never heard of it, but I did just look it up. I dont consider it a horrible food, but its not a food I would feed to my dogs.

I like that it has Chicken and Chicken Meal as its first 2 ingredients. I dont like that the ingredient rice repeats (brown rice, brewers rice), although being that one is brown, its not as bad. I dont like the poultry digest, or the poultry liver digest spray. Nor the beet pulp, egg product or salt. It does have some positives though such as flax seed and yucca for example.


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## Ibizan (Nov 17, 2006)

When I say I wouldn't eat it myself, I mean the things put into it. Animals generally can handle a wide variety of things from species to species, and omnivores have a wide variety of food. If there's things in my OWN food I can't pronounce, I won't eat it. It goes no different for my dogs. Why would I want them eating food colouring, or pump them full of preservatives? I wouldn't, and I don't.

I've done research with clients' dogs as well as my own, testing kibble to raw and back again. I agree that what works for your dog works for your dog, but, I also agree in trying the higher roads that have worked for others. Just because you're getting good results, doesn't mean they are great.

I've had people say "well my dog is alive, and I've fed Purina for years" but when they switched to a higher quality food or raw diet, they noticed the change.


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## springermom (Nov 20, 2006)

_"I've had people say "well my dog is alive, and I've fed Purina for years" but when they switched to a higher quality food or raw diet, they noticed the change."_

Exactly. I dared a family member to try a higher quality food for a month. I believe she put the dog on Innova after feeding dog chow. She was so happy that he ate less (instead of the 6 cups or so of dog chow a day), he was pooping ALOT less and it didn't smell as bad, he didn't shed as much, breath didn't smell, etc. He's been eating Innova ever since.


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## mcate (Jul 23, 2006)

Vets will differ, too -- I've heard "anything by Purina is good," plus the usual selling of Eukanuba, Iams, etc. 

My friend has her German Shepherd on cooked ground beef & rice on the recommend of her vet, nothing else. 

I use IAMS Puppy food and my 7 month old poops 4-5 times a day. I'll look into the price tags of some of those foods


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Ibizan said:


> When I say I wouldn't eat it myself, I mean the things put into it. Animals generally can handle a wide variety of things from species to species, and omnivores have a wide variety of food. If there's things in my OWN food I can't pronounce, I won't eat it. It goes no different for my dogs. Why would I want them eating food colouring, or pump them full of preservatives? I wouldn't, and I don't.
> 
> I've done research with clients' dogs as well as my own, testing kibble to raw and back again. I agree that what works for your dog works for your dog, but, I also agree in trying the higher roads that have worked for others. Just because you're getting good results, doesn't mean they are great.
> 
> I've had people say "well my dog is alive, and I've fed Purina for years" but when they switched to a higher quality food or raw diet, they noticed the change.


I beg to differ! I am getting GREAT results from the food I feed. Otherwise, I wouldn't be feeding it. It wouldn't be worth it. You can believe what you want, but I know what kind of foods my dogs do best on and I'm not going to be "guilted" or "fooled" into jumping on the rollercoaster. I don't think you understand what I was saying at all if you think YOU can make judgements about how well or how poorly MY dogs are doing on their food- and without even seeing them I might add!

I don't think you have read the ingredients lists of Purina's better lines if you think they are full of coloring and preservatives. Yes, foods like Beneful, Kibbles'n'Bits, and Dog Chow do have food coloring and preservatives- all of which I personally wouldn't feed anyway. However, I've yet to see it in Pro Plan. So, your point about food coloring and being "pump full" of preservatives is void in that food. 

As far being able to pronounce the ingredients in your own food, am I to assume that you've never eaten at a restaurant? You don't get to see the ingredients in those foods- and even if you did, I'm sure at least half are unpronouncable. And I guess you can count foods like bread and pasta out of your diet. Even with a "classic whole grain wheat" bread or whole grain wheat pasta, I can't pronounce all the ingredients. Salad dressings are a no go, as is Spaghetti sauce, cheese slices, steak sauce, ketchup, mustard, etc. Even butter would go out the window. So, what do you eat? It would seem to me that would leave you with just plain meat, fruit, and veggies. Seems like a bit of a boring diet to me. Now I'm sorry to go a bit overboard, but do you see what I mean? You're not going to be able to always find products where you can pronounce every single ingredient- heck, there are some food with names that I can't even fathom a guess as to how they're pronounced, yet I know they're healthy or at least harmless because I can still stay fit eating them. Bottom line is, you're just going to have to trust that they're quality ingredients, and you should be able to let the results tell you if they are or aren't. I, myself, am a label reader and if I have a concern, I call the manufacturer and ask questions- of which, I've almost always been satisfied with the information I'm provided. Food (human or canine) is not nor should it be rocket science.

Also, I know of MANY seasoned trainers, breeders, handlers, etc. that have tried "higher" quality products only to switch back to what they had known to be tried and true. Their dogs did very poorly on those so-called "higher" quality products, and I can tell you it was not from overfeeding- they did cut back portions to compensate. Their dogs stools were never the same, their ears were always yeasty, and their coats were horrible- some even reported their dogs' coats had actually fallen out in clumps (and no, that's not an exaggeration!). Now try to tell me that those "higher" quality foods were so much better for those dogs. I, along with all those professionals, would certainly disagree and they wouldn't be the only ones. I could almost guarantee that they would never switch their dogs to those types of products again.

You can do what you want with your own dogs, but do not proceed to tell others what to do with theirs. I believe when it comes to the health and fitness of one's dogs, only the owner (or the person who most frequently cares for the dogs) knows their dogs well enough to make a judgement call of how well or how poorly they are doing. It is not up to you or anyone else to make that call or to put any kind of pressure on someone to feed anything other than what they are feeding. That is a choice they need to make on their own. The decision of what is high or low quality is, and will always remain, a personal opinion- and one most people can form on their own without being told that it's "garbage" or "very good".


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

springermom said:


> _"I've had people say "well my dog is alive, and I've fed Purina for years" but when they switched to a higher quality food or raw diet, they noticed the change."_
> 
> Exactly. I dared a family member to try a higher quality food for a month. I believe she put the dog on Innova after feeding dog chow. She was so happy that he ate less (instead of the 6 cups or so of dog chow a day), he was pooping ALOT less and it didn't smell as bad, he didn't shed as much, breath didn't smell, etc. He's been eating Innova ever since.


I got a family member to switch from Dog Chow to better quality food, and they've seen GREAT results as well. After just a few weeks on Pro Plan, their dogs' coats and skin have tremendously improved, their ears are clearing up, their eyes are bright and clear, they have a good amount of energy, and they poop smaller poops 2x a day as well as eat A LOT less- which is helping them shed some excess pounds in the process. Even their older, less mobile dog greeted me at the door for Thanksgiving today, which is very different as she used to just lay in the living room taking no interest at all of the comings and goings of the household- even on holidays. So, foods such as Innova, while they can have good results, aren't always the answer to everything.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

springermom said:


> Actually I don't think Nutro is any good.
> 
> It's not opinions.... it's the truth. If you want to buy into the purina commercials, that's fine. I'm just glad I don't have to be the one picking up the stinky poop.


No, I don't buy into the Purina commercials. I buy into the results. I have personally seen MANY, MANY dogs do wonderfully on foods like Pro Plan. And, no, since switching, my dogs actually poop less and their poop smells less. So, no, you wouldn't have to pick up any stinky poop from my dogs. But, if you wouldn't mind traveling all the way to my place to pick up a backyard full of stinky poop, I can gladly arrange it by switching to any food anyone says is good. Since I seriously doubt anyone here is willing to do that, I'm going to stick with their current food.

Also, YES, IT IS PURELY OPINION! You cannot, with certainty, say that your opinion is the truth. It is not. It is mearly your opinion and I see no reason to give it anymore weight than anyone else's. The only way you could even possibly say that your opinion is the truth is if you know, without a shadow of a doubt, that my dogs will do best on a supposed "higher" quality food. I know that you don't (since you don't even know my dogs), so your point (and your opinion in this case as far as I'm concerned) is invalid.


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

all4thedogs said:


> I never said anything about NurtiSource and actually had never heard of it, but I did just look it up. I dont consider it a horrible food, but its not a food I would feed to my dogs.
> 
> I like that it has Chicken and Chicken Meal as its first 2 ingredients. I dont like that the ingredient rice repeats (brown rice, brewers rice), although being that one is brown, its not as bad. I dont like the poultry digest, or the poultry liver digest spray. Nor the beet pulp, egg product or salt. It does have some positives though such as flax seed and yucca for example.


I realize that you never said anything about NutriSource specifically. I was trying to make a point that quality is indeed in the eye of the beholder. For example, you said you wouldn't feed this food to your dogs (which, I also want to point out you say having never tried this food with your dogs), but I think it's a very good food that I've had great success with. These are just either of our opinions. Neither one is completely correct, nor is either completely wrong.


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## Ibizan (Nov 17, 2006)

I'm not sure where you got that I was telling people what to do with their dogs. I never did. Feed your dogs what they do best on. They aren't mine, if they were they'd be one something else (it's a little silly to keep so many feeding techniques in a house chock full of dogs!) but that's just me.

I'm speaking from experience. And specifically referring to people who REFUSE to even try anything other than commercial pet food. I've dealt with it a lot. I deal with working dogs that run top speed all day long and only stop to catch their prey and drop it to their handler. I don't know anyone in my clubs or anyone who does the same thing I do with my dogs who can feed a commercial food. The fact that the dogs eat less, and aren't gaining extra weight when they eat if they are out for a while on injury is a fact that we keep in mind, among others.

As I have said a few times before, what works for your dog works for your dog. I did not jump on a bandwagon for feeding RAW, I've been feeding it for over 10 years in various ways. I *recommend* it to everyone because of the amazing results that I've seen that have worked for me and hundreds of others that I know and talk with. But I never push it on anyone. I offer free samples of certain dog foods that I believe help (due to my own and others' personal experience) with energy levels, coat condition (which is very important to me, which a lot of unexperienced hound people think is rubbish, not sure why) eyes, teeth, etc.

I'm sorry if you felt as if I was putting you or your dogs down. You clearly have tried other things, and they were not good enough compared to what you already had. That's perfectly fine. I have no problem with that. I DO however have a problem with people never trying anything because they aren't willing to, for whatever reason. To me, there is no excuse to not be willing to possibly increase the quality of your dogs life, perhaps even make him live longer.


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## APBTgal (Dec 10, 2006)

ood Even a Dog Shouldn't Eat - Killing Our Pets with Every Meal

Each year, Americans spend $10 billion on pet food for our beloved companion animals, animals we treat like members of our families and whom we love as our closest friends. Yet 95 percent of the food fed to these treasured creatures is made up of materials that are unfit for human consumption and contain little nutritional value.

As a result, "man's best friend" has skin disorders, arthritis, obesity, heart disease and a variety of cancers. Without speech, our animal companions cannot tell us of the insidious, often life threatening ill health they experience.

A large percentage of commercial pet food is made up of meat by-products, a toxic brew containing diseased and contaminated meat from slaughterhouses, animal heads, toenails, chicken feathers, feet and beaks. It also includes dead animals picked up from the nation's roads, rancid kitchen grease and frying oil from the nation's kitchens, and millions of pounds of dead animals from the country's animal hospitals and shelters.

Meat Packing Plant (Photo courtesy Sterling Industries)


The meat industry produces a tremendous amount of waste. Half of every cow and one-third of every pig butchered is wasted. Add to that the millions of tons of dead animals each year and you have an incredible waste problem.

In the United States alone, rendering is a $2.4 billion industry with 286 rendering plants disposing of over 100 million pounds of dead animals, meat wastes and fat EVERY DAY.

A few years ago, Baltimore reporter Van Smith visited a rendering plant in his city and found that the large vats that collect and filter the animals prior to cooking contained a vast array of animals including dead dogs, cats, raccoons, opossums, deer, foxes, snakes, a baby circus elephant and the remains of a police department horse. This one rendering plant alone processes 1,824 dead animals every month. Every year this one plant turns 150 million pounds of decaying, diseased and drug filled flesh and kitchen grease into 80 million pounds of meat and bone meal, tallow and yellow grease. This nutritionally dead, often toxic material provides the base for most pet foods and is found in a vast array of products used by humans as well.

Shredding before boiling at the rendering plant (Photo courtesy Fan Separator Company)


This meat and bone meal is used to augment the feed of poultry, pigs, cattle and sheep destined for human consumption.

The deceptive product label names to watch out for that indicate the presence of this deadly soup include meat meal, meat by-products, poultry meal, poultry by-products, fish meal, fish oil, yellow grease, tallow, beef fat, chicken fat and fatty acids.

Fatty acids can be found in lipstick, inks and waxes and other rendering products such as tallow and grease go into soaps, candles, tires, many drugs and gummy candies. The health conscious consumer should avoid all these ingredients in human and pet foods.

Downed dairy cow waiting to be picked up by the rendering plant (Photo courtesy Farm Sanctuary)


Many toxic chemicals make their way into the rendered products. In addition to the unused meat from the livestock slaughtering process, dead, dying, diseased and disabled animals are also included. These animals are known as "4D meat" in the trade. Along with the meat comes disease, antibiotics and other drugs used during the animals' lives, pesticides, cattle ID tags and surgical needles.

Unsold supermarket meats, still in their plastic and Styrofoam wrappings, go into the mix as well as the plastic bags they are delivered in.

The millions of dead dogs and cats from veterinarians and animals shelters go into the rendering pots, including their flea collars containing toxic pesticides, ID tags and a variety of powerful drugs.

The city of Los Angeles sends 200 tons of euthanized cats and dogs to West Coast Rendering plant every month. This is just from the city's animal shelters and does not include animals from private veterinarians.

Euthanized dogs (Photo by Barbara Ward)


A common drug found in the rendering brew is phenobarbital, commonly used to euthanize sick animals. The American Journal of Veterinary Research did a study in 1985 that showed there was virtually no degradation of this drug during the typical rendering process and that measurable quantities of it remain present in the rendered material used for pet foods and for feeding cattle destined for human consumption.

The grains in pet food bear little resemblance to the nutrient rich cereals we assume are present. Pet food grain consists of the leftovers after the grain has been processed for humans. It also contains moldy grain that has been declared unfit for human consumption. Some of the mold is toxic and potentially deadly.

The preservatives added to pet foods, and human foods, are highly toxic. Sodium nitrite, a coloring agent and preservative, ethoxyquin, an insecticide, BHA and BHT have all been linked to cancer. Your dog could be consuming as much as 26 pounds of preservatives each year if it is fed these foods.

The state of ill health that these non-foods generate is responsible for a host of health problems and can cause a hypersensitivity to flea and insect bites. Many flea allergies would go away in animals if their diets were changed.

8,000 gallon fat boiler ((Photo courtesy National Bi-Products)


The pet food industry is unregulated by government bodies. An organization called the Association of American Feed Control Officials sets the standards. Its membership includes a few state agency representatives, but it is mostly run by commercial pet food industry workers.

Don't be fooled by pet food sold at a veterinarian's office. Depending upon the brand, this food can contain most of the same ingredients as commercial pet foods sold in supermarkets. The corporations that own these brands are simply very clever with their advertisement and product placements and begin courting vets during their training with free food, lectures and even clothing.

Fortunately, there are alternatives and some are presented below, but you will need to pay more. Rather than paying 15 cents a pound for toxic commercial pet food, you may need to spend a dollar a pound. But the thousands of dollars you could save in treating your pet's food-caused illnesses could more than make this up.

As always, larger issues loom. We must cast off the comfortable assumptions we have lived with all our lives, discover the truth and act on it. Change your pet's food today. And change your own, while you are at it!

And don't forget the water - if you wouldn't drink tap water, why are you giving it to your pet?


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wow, I hope you didn't type all that because a lot of it only pertains to "lower" quality products such as Ol' Roy and other foods that IMHO are at the bottom of the barrel. "Higher" and "decent" quality foods do not use these ingredients. As for the pet food industry being unregulated, that is very untrue. They do have standards and regulations that they must follow as well as laws that do pertain to them. You can research that if you want. But, I suppose you're too busy "exposing the evils of the pet food industry" to actually go out and seek the truth. Well, have fun with that!


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## APBTgal (Dec 10, 2006)

LabLady101 said:


> Wow, I hope you didn't type all that because a lot of it only pertains to "lower" quality products such as Ol' Roy and other foods that IMHO are at the bottom of the barrel. "Higher" and "decent" quality foods do not use these ingredients. As for the pet food industry being unregulated, that is very untrue. They do have standards and regulations that they must follow as well as laws that do pertain to them. You can research that if you want. But, I suppose you're too busy "exposing the evils of the pet food industry" to actually go out and seek the truth. Well, have fun with that!


AT WHAT POINT DID I SAY ANYTHING TO OFFEND YOU? IF MY POSTING THIS INFORMATION HURT YOUR FEELINGS, IT IS PROBABLY BECAUSE YOU FEEL GUILTY FOR FEEDING THAT "FOOD" TO YOUR DOGS. I NEVER PUT ANYONE DOWN OR BELITTLED ANYONE FOR BUYING IT, I SIMPLY WANTED TO SHARE WHAT I HAD READ , SO THAT ANYONE WHO READ IT COULD BE AWARE. I PERSONALLY DON'T CARE WHAT YOU FEED YOUR DOG (I'M JUST GLAD I DON'T RELY ON YOU FOR MY WELL-BEING!)
AND AS FOR ME BEING "too busy "exposing the evils of the pet food industry"
APPARENTLY I AM TOO BUSY LETTING YOU EXPOSE HOW RUDE AND UNINTELLIGENT SOME PEOPLE CAN BE.

P.S. IF YOU HAD BEEN ABLE TO PAY ANY ATTENTION TO WHAT WAS POSTED THE SCRIPT FOR ALL THE PHOTOS THAT WERE ON THE PAGE I "CUT AND PASTED" WERE STILL THERE. SO IT WOULD BE OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WITH HALF A BRAIN THAT I DIDN'T "type all that". AND JUST GOES TO SHOW THAT WHEN YOU TRY TO BE HELPFUL AND SPREAD KNOWLEDGE , SOME PEOPLE WOULD RATHER BE RUDE THAN LEARN.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Settle down people. Just provide the information you have, share your opinion, and move on. There's no need to get so personal when we're all just trying to help people. I know some of us have our agendas, but please keep them civil. We all start to lose credibility with the name calling. This isn't directed to anyone in particular, so please let's all just be courteous. Thank you.


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## APBTgal (Dec 10, 2006)

*I would not want my dog to end up like this.*

I don't know if you heard about this but anything could happen no matter what you feed.If you are not eating it how would you be able to tell something was wrong?

By LiveScience Staff







Updated: 9:39 p.m. ET Jan 6, 2006
function UpdateTimeStamp(pdt) { var n = document.getElementById("udtD"); if(pdt != '' && n && window.DateTime) { var dt = new DateTime(); pdt = dt.T2D(pdt); if(dt.GetTZ(pdt)) {n.innerHTML = dt.D2S(pdt,((''.toLowerCase()=='false')?false:true));} } } UpdateTimeStamp('632721983855070000');

At least 100 dogs in the United States have been killed in recent weeks by toxic pet food despite a recall of the products, scientists said today.
Some 19 brands of Diamond, Country Value and Professional dog foods have been recalled. But many pet owners are not aware of the recall, researchers at Cornell University said Friday.
Dogs have refused to eat the food and, in some cases, their owners have enticed them with gravy and other lures without knowing they were killing the animals.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10743413/#storyContinued

"Entire kennels have been wiped out, and because of the holiday these past few weeks, the dispersal of recall information was disrupted," said Sharon Center, a professor of veterinary medicine who specializes in liver function and disease at the College of Veterinary Medicine at Cornell.
*Toxic food damages the liver*
The dog food is tainted with deadly aflatoxins that waste the liver away. The bad food could be present in a dozen other countries, too, the researchers say. About two-thirds of dogs that show symptoms from the toxin have died.
The dogs seemed to know their food was deadly.
"Some dogs were stealing food from the kitchen counter," Center said. "Others just stopped eating the food and begged for treats. Unfortunately, some owners used gravy and other mixers to entice their dogs to consume what they thought was safe, quality dog food."
Only about two dozen deaths have been firmly linked to the tainted pet food. But Center and her colleagues know the toll is far higher.


23 dog deaths linked to contaminated food


"Every day, we're hearing reports from veterinarians in the East and Southeast who have treated dogs that have died from liver damage this past month or so," Center said. "We're also concerned about the long-term health of dogs that survive as well as dogs that have eaten the tainted food but show no clinical signs." 
Surviving dogs may develop chronic liver disease or liver cancer, she said.
"Despite our understanding of this complex toxin, we have no direct antidote," Center said.
Symptoms arise over days or weeks. Early signs include lethargy, loss of appetite and vomiting. Later, look for orange-colored urine and jaundice, which is a yellowing of the eyes and gums. Severely affected dogs produce a blood-tinged vomit and bloody or blackened stools.
The details of the FDA recall are *here*.
getCSS("3053751") Recalled pet food
— Diamond Premium Adult Dog Food
— Diamond Hi-Energy Dog Food (Sporting Dog)
— Diamond Maintenance Dog Food
— Diamond Professional for Adult Dogs
— Diamond Performance Dog Food
— Diamond Puppy Food
— Diamond Low Fat Dog Food
— Diamond Maintenance Cat Food
— Diamond Professional Cat Food
— Country Value Puppy
— Country Value Adult Dog Food
— Country Value High Energy Dog Food
— Country Value Adult Cat Food
— Professional Chicken & Rice Adult Dog Food
— Professional Puppy Food
— Professional Large-Breed Puppy Food
— Professional Reduced Fat Cat Food
— Professional Adult Cat Food

Source: FDA


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## LabLady101 (Jul 5, 2006)

My philosphy exactly! Anything can happen no matter what you feed. All anyone can ever do is feed the food their dog does best on- no matter what it is. If only more people would understand that dogs can still get cancer and die at a young age eating Innova, Solid Gold, Wellness, etc...but then, I suppose, of course, it would not be blamed on the food. Nope, only foods like Dog Chow get the honor of being blamed for such tragedies. Just doesn't make sense to me! Did it ever occur to anyone that a tragedy happened simply because a dog just happened to be born with a bad set of genetics? Or worse yet, there was a smoker in the home? Some one once told me "cancer is an equal opportunity killer" and I totally agree. Sure, food does make a difference in the health of your dog, but if something like cancer is going to happen there is no way to say for certain that it was the food that caused it. I'm more inclined to believe that genetics and environmental factors play more of a role in that area than food ever will.

As far as food related deaths such as the Diamond incident, it's a risk we all take. No company is any different to the next in that respect. Even if you feed raw, the risk for illnesses related to ecoli and such are still there. There is just no getting around it. We just have to stick with the food our dogs do best on and hope it never happens to us. But, if you do feed a kibble, I would think if it makes you feel any better, a call to manufacturer to ask about their safety practices may be in order.


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## APBTgal (Dec 10, 2006)

good post lablady101


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## Dogend (Dec 20, 2006)

I feed my Spike a mix of diffrent foods, from dried cheap, (when funds are low) to a more expensive dried mixer. In the winter...(now) i feed him half a tin in with his mixer, plus some warm water. 

Im in the UK, so the winters can be cold. Ive been told by some, that hot water in a dogs meal can be bad for them. 

Any thoughts???


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## Lare (Dec 18, 2006)

*What the president of AAFCO says...*

I've done a great deal of research on commercial dog
foods. 

If you are interested in gaining years of knowledge about 
commercial dog food just drop me an email and I'll send
more information than you probably want, and you WILL
change your mind about feeding your dog any of the
commercial brands. Even the dog food your vet recommends
because, guess what? He probably doesn't know much
about it - and I can show and tell you why and how vets
sell dog food.

Here's what the president of AAFCO (the people who certify
dog food in the US) said, on camera, about commercial dog
food (video);

http://home.att.net/~srcusick/deaddogsinfood.avi


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## tobybones (Apr 24, 2007)

springermom, where did you get this info on how to rate dog food? why isn't Blue Buffalo on your list? Whats wrong with Blue Buffalo?


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## CHOTCHgoldens (Apr 28, 2007)

I did not read all of this, but I have heard and known most of it.

I love the rating system and think it works great for determining the quality of any given kibble. 
While I don't like feeding a kibble that is made by a major manufacturer, such as Purina from Nestle, I have used and recommended Nature's Recipe and I find the ingredients to be wonderful.
My eleven show and working/performance dogs eat home-cooked on a daily basis, but I of course keep kibble on hand. They eat Merrick when I cannot cook for them.
Merrick has everything I want in a kibble, and I appreciate the people who make it.
I for one would never feed a kibble with by-products, corn, wheat, brewers rice, or meat "meal" in it.

My dogs thrive on home-cooked, meaning two meat products a day, with potatoes/oatmeal/brown rice, carrots, apples, cottage cheese, and Missing Link supplement on top.

If I were subjected to feeding kibble on the whole, it would always be Merrick dry with two canned varieties.

I would never touch anything made by Science Diet, Purina, Pedigree, Iams, Eukanuba, or Nutro.
I hate how Euk is the #1 Sponser of AKC events, how they tout how extremely wonderful their kibbles are, when really, it is crap.
Plus, they have all of these breed-specific and needs-specific kibbles, when really, it is all the same stuff just in different bags!

Anyways, tell your friend good job! Those feeding the not-so-high-quality kibbles either do not care or are ignorant as to what is in their kibble. Education is key!!!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

springermom said:


> Companies like Iams, Purina, etc. are out to make money.


Well I have REAL problem with any company that wants to make money. If I ever find out that Canidae is trying make money, I'm dropping them like a hot penny and finding another dog food company that prefers to lose money. That way, we know that they are only looking after the best interests of my dog.

It's too bad they won't be around for long to do that.


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## Addison (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow that was alot of information... Thanks Springermom!! I have been searching for the "right" dog food to feed my Husky and have had a hard time. Either foods make her sick or I find out later that they are not that healthy. I am now feeding her Nutro, but after looking at your score of Nutro, I think I should change... But I am so afraid of her getting sick. 

Finally an article that is not bias... Everything I was looking up on the internet had been created by a large dog food company. If you have any good websites that have more info, I would be really interested! Thanks


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## allab (Oct 6, 2007)

I have done a lot of research my self on pet food,here is one website to help you understand what is good for your pet what is not.  http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/


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## 972 (Oct 8, 2007)

that was some very helpful info i was feeding my dogs nutromax and a neighbor suggested that i start using nutripet. its an al organic with all vitamins and supplements in it and i have notice a difference in my rotts activities and their coat. and plus i don't have to feed them as much. i've attached some info on nutripet


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## DogMama404 (Jan 9, 2008)

Springermom, I have enjoyed reading your comments in this thread. Have you or any of the other members heard anything about Andrew Lewis' "Dog Food Secrets?" I was researching dog food this morning and found him all over the web but I couldn't find any postings from anyone who has ordered his book or followed his diet. The few reviews I did find just used snippets from his press releases...

I feed my dog Nature's Balance and am happy with it. From what I've read it seems like a solid choice and I'm not sure I'm ready to commit to a homemade dog food diet. But if anyone has tried Andrew Lewis' book and recipes and has any comments, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks,
DogMama404


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## LMH (Jan 2, 2008)

I think that while we are different species are needs are the same. Shelter ,water, protien ,vitamins, minerals,and herbs to thrive not just survive. So to say it is someone's opinion of what is higher quality food than lower quality is ridiculous. While you can't compare fast food to dog food you can definitley appreciate that ingredients in food be it for dog or human is important. It doesn't take a doctor to point out that eating donoughts all day is worse than eating salads all day. And giving dogs food with empty nutrition like undigestible grain is worse than giving clean protien(meaning not the 4 d's) is probably better.


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## celestine (Oct 22, 2007)

Hello to Everyone. I've read every (and I mean _every) post of this topic. Making sure our pets get what nutrients they need is important to all of us. It doesn't matter the name of the product as long as your pet is doing well on it. Mine aren't. Let me explain...

I have a 7 year old pit/chow/gsd mix and he has skin allergies. But the little booger is soooo picky. I hate switching food, but sometimes I must in order for him to eat. Sometimes he'll look at me, look at his bowl (mind you it's the same thing he ate that morning...ate with gusto!) and look at me again as if to "Are you kidding me? I hate that stuff!". All I see after that is his backside as he leaves the kitchen. Now if anyone has a good recommendation for him, it's appreciated as long as there are no arguments about it. 

I also have a 5 month old rottweiler (that is driving me bonkers at this current time...I love him...but sometimes I think I must have been out of my mind to have gotten him). He's been on a variety of foods. I slowly make a change when I notice things...like a lot of bowel movements...that's been most of my concern. Because I don't think he should be going quite so often. But it's firm, I do have to say that. (My husband thinks it's absolutely disgusting that I'll peek while their doing their "business", but as a pet owner. I need to know if something is going on. Anyway, the rotten pup...or my monster as I affectionately call him, has a very shiny and soft coat. So that's not a concern. But I've spoken with so many people about what would be good to feed him that I'm nearly blue in the face. I've heard...feed him a large breed puppy food it's what he needs for his joints and bones...then again...I've heard...don't feed him that. Just feed him puppy food...it's all the same and the large breed formulas are just gimmicks. I know that dog/puppy food is not all the same, but I'm tired of standing in petsmart and petsupermaket arguing which is better. It would be great if I could feed them the same things, but that's not a good idea. Although, a "supposed" breeder of presa's told me you can feed them Diamond Adult and it's fine for both. That doesn't sit well with me and I've never had another conversation with that man again! 
So if someone could be kind enough (without getting angry) to give me recommendations for both of my dogs, that would be so great. One is so very picky and the other...hasn't has time to develop that pickiness...yet. Thanks a bunch!_


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

celestine-----I think that if I had one allergic dog and one large-breed puppy, I'd feed them both Canidae. It's made for all life stages and will work for both the adult and the pup. Keep the puppy lean, if you let him get chubby it will put too much stress on his joints. A lot of people DO feed their large-breed pups adult food, but an all-life-stages food is better. Regular puppy food can be too rich for them, and can cause them to grow unevenly, which is why they came up with large-breed puppy foods. But the all-life-stages food will work, too.


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## celestine (Oct 22, 2007)

Willowy- Thanks! It's been such a long time since I had a puppy and they didn't offer all this new food.


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## luvmyweim (Jan 18, 2008)

Thank you so much for that website. I have been very confused with this issue. My 15 month old weim. has been on Purina Pro Large Breed Puppy since I got her. She has done quite well on it, but... I have wondered if there are better options. I have also had many conversations with various vets. on when to take her off puppy food and what brands. I know many of you are against it ever being used, but, like before mentioned we all do what we feel is in our pet's best interest. I have been told to keep her on it until she is 2, 1, 6 months... they all contradict each other. Does anyone else have experience with Weimeraner puppies specifically? I had planned to take her off at 18 months, and now am considering switching dog food. If you have any polite, experienced advice, please share.


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## scintillady (Dec 13, 2007)

This thread is exactly why I think people should read up on the subject of dog food in general, then do what they think is best for their own dog, based on their individual circumstances. I have finally made up my mind what I will be feeding Ruby, and if I keep coming on here and reading everyone' opinions, I will be still second-guessing myself for the rest of my life. Having raised a healthy, well-adjusted 24 year old human daughter using mostly common sense and research, I consider myself to be able to weed out the nuggets of advice I need, and ignore the rest. I thank everyone for the wealth of info which enabled me to make up my own mind, and hopefully I will have the same success with my 4 legged children as I did with my human one. As I said in a previous post. DOG FOOD IS A LOADED SUBJECT!!


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## celestine (Oct 22, 2007)

You're right Scintillylady, dog food is a loaded subject. But sometimes it's nice to hear about food that you haven't seen in your area. I have a limited choice of dog food. And quite honestly, I don't trust the kids that work in pet stores. This is irrelevant, but we've gotten fish from pet stores. Even though I do my own research on which fish is compatible with which, I was curious to hear what they would say. The kids will tell me they'll get along fine no matter what they are. So who's to say they care enough to be able to direct you to food that will be good for your pets. 
I agree, if your pet is doing well on which ever food you're using, then that's the food you need to stick with. But in my case, mine isn't. The food he's on has given him frequent bowel movements. He's a 5.5 month old rottweiler. I also have a 7 year old pit/chow/germ shep mix and that dog doesn't like anything. He turns his nose up at every food I've tried. And heaven forbid, if I feed someone something different. Then neither one of them will eat. Those are the most picky dogs I've ever met! A little guidance is nice.


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## yorkieartist (Jan 19, 2008)

You know I have read all the bashing, defending, not defending of various pet food and what you all feed your animals and was so distracted by this I had to post a response.

First... do yourselves a favor and buy a small book entitled "Foods Pets Die for"... read it.........!!!! Then, look at your bag and find out how you are feeding that animal you spent big bucks on and are feeding crap just because it is a dog. What annoys me is people spend great money to get a papered animal and bragging rights and then go to Safeway and buy the cheapest bag of junk they can to feed it. Why? Because it is just a dog!

Well, let me say this... it is pay me now or pay me later. Either you take care of the animal now .. or pay the vet trying to keep it alive later. Our pets are very unsuspecting and take what we give them in good faith. It is our responsibility to do what we can to provide them with good, safe nutrition. Fortunately for them there are many new products coming out to assist in that endeavor. Our dogs are carnivore's... they need very little if no grain... they need meat ... not by products, preservatives, beet pulp, fillers. So, we as owners have a very serious responsibility to spend some of that money we spend on ourselves to provide that animal with the best food to keep them healthy. Owning an animal comes with a responsibility... and we owe that to them. How would you like to be fed some of the stuff we feed our animals? 

I am a breeder... I own many very tiny yorkshire terriers... I know what I am talking about. How, I made the same mistakes through ignorance. I did my research, and found out the truth about dog food. When I cannot feed pure fresh food for my animals, they get the grain-free kibble ... no preservatives, no junk, no fillers, no by products. Do your homework... and feed your unsuspecting, loving pet, the best food you know how to give... because you did your homework, and you love them .... as they do you!

You can say what you want about your food that you feed (good or bad), but the bottom line is... it is your pet's life you are playing with. Being defensive about what you have been feeding is not doing your animal one good thing. Just go do your own homework... and decide. And if you go and think this is all balony... fine, when they are dying in your arms one day and you would give anything for one last day, week, whatever... remember... you made the choice long ago... and the only one who benefits from your decision is your pet! Their food and its quality is paramount to their longevity and quality of life. Think about it!


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## celestine (Oct 22, 2007)

Yorkieartist- that book was a real eye opener. It made me glad that I make my own pet treats. But now it has motivated me to making food for my pets. With enough research, I'll never have to feed them commercial foods again. And if for some reason I have to, I'll make a good choice after reading that book. Thanks!


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## busyx3 (Sep 9, 2008)

I have read every post on this topic and I'm not sure if I'm more confused or less confused. My poor dog already has a yeast & bacterial infection possibly because the groomer recommended I bathe her in watered down dish detergent (I had four days experience and she has 25 years, so of course I did it). My dog came with a bag of Beneful and I thought it was a great food because she poo's only once a day with a nice consistancy and it doesn't smell bad.... now I find out that I'm killing her with that! 

Despite all this Molly still follows me all over the house, even waiting for me beside the shower stall. Now I know why dogs are "man's best friend"!


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

yorkieartist said:


> You know I have read all the bashing, defending, not defending of various pet food and what you all feed your animals and was so distracted by this I had to post a response.
> 
> First... do yourselves a favor and buy a small book entitled "Foods Pets Die for"... read it.........!!!! Then, look at your bag and find out how you are feeding that animal you spent big bucks on and are feeding crap just because it is a dog. What annoys me is people spend great money to get a papered animal and bragging rights and then go to Safeway and buy the cheapest bag of junk they can to feed it. Why? Because it is just a dog!
> 
> ...


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## busyx3 (Sep 9, 2008)

_I would look up www.dogfoodanalysis.com to get an idea of what food to feed your dog. Look at the 6 or 5-star foods._



Thanks for that link! I did go there and found out that a brand I ordered to replace the Beneful (I thought Molly might've been itching because of Beneful) was listed as "resonably good". At least she's okay now until I can wade through everything and see what would be best.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I know this is an old thread, but I felt compelled to point out some incorrect information.....the first post states that Iams recommends feeding 4 cups of food to a 25 lb dog, and this is simply untrue. The feeding instructions for the origional formula on the website recommend feeding 1-1 1/4 cups for a 20 lb dog, and 1 1/4-1 3/4 for a 30 lb dog. 

I have tried many dog foods and it is an absolute myth that you feed less of "premium foods". It has to be looked at on a food by food basis. Something like EVO is very high in calories and you will probably feed less, but I feed less of Purina One than I did of both Canidae and Natural Balance. Every time I hear "You save money by feeding less" it drives me crazy. Maybe you will on some foods, maybe not.

Another incorrect assertation in this article is that the first ingredient in Science Diet is corn. Nope, in the origional formula it's chicken, and in the lamb and rice, it's lamb meal.

When you lie about other dog foods that happen to be on your "bad list" to make your case appear stronger, you loose credibility, at least with anyone who bothers to do their own research.


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## Lab159 (Sep 2, 2009)

I know that no one really posts in this thread anymore but I would like to write what I have experienced with dog food. I have had dogs my whole life from my younger years until now. I have feed my dogs all different kinds of dog food ranging from Solid Gold to a bowl of leftovers from dinner. No matter what I seemed to put in front of the dogs they all seem to enjoy whatever is feed to them. Our first dogs (when I was a kid) were feed only scraps from dinner or some meat here and there and they lived 12+ years. I also believe that what you feed your dog is your personal opinion and someone that does not like commercial dog food will naturally make it sound bad to prove their point that the dog food they like is better. Unless you can actually prove what animal by-products are in dog food you can't make the statement that their are other dead dogs and cats in them. I really do not think our 4-legged friends mind by-products anyways, I can't count the times I would catch our farm dogs with some dead animal they caught whether it be a bird or a barn cat. They never came down with any illnesses and always died peacefully in their sleep. I believe dogs these days have been breed to be more of a house animal then the natural outdoor animals they once were. But anyways back on point. I now live in town with enough room in our backyard for my new lab I recently got. I feed it Hill's Science Diet Lamb Meal and Rice for Large breed puppies. I got her at 8 weeks old and she is now 13 weeks. She enjoys it and has firm stool movements and has plenty of energy. She is gaining the proper amount of weight every week and is not growing to fast. She will probably be feed commercial dog food her whole life along with scraps like all the dogs I have had that have lived long happy lives. I believe that if your dog likes the food that it is being feed and is not having any problems associated with it keep feeding it and if your dog does not like it and is having problems switch dog foods. There are plenty enough out there these days for every kind of picky eatter.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I totally agree with you. If the dog is fine feed that food. 

I have found my dogs both do far better on fresh foods than kibble however. The spaniel mix seemed just fine on any kibble offered but on fresh he is a different dog. His very personality is better, less reactive and more sensible. The lab mix was always stinky on kibbles and she is nearly stink free on cooked. food. Those aren't minor changes. 

I fed Iams, Science Diet, Royal Canin, Natural Balance, Canidae, Wellness, Pinnacle and Evo that I can recall. Fresh works better than any. I don't think the brand made a bit of difference, it is the type of food that matters here. Meat meals, dried vegetables and fruits, all that grain variety and huge numbers of added minerals and vitamins extruded and sprayed with rendered fat aren't as good for my dogs as wet meats gently cooked or raw.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

I enjoy ice cream, a quarter pounder and fries and chocolate but it doesn't mean they're good for me. If I was younger, I could probably survive on them but as I get older, my body will start to break down. I'm not criticizing anyone's choice of food; just the logic behind the choice. 

With regards to by-products, if they were so good for your dog, why not name what they are? I can criticize by-products because I don't know exactly what's in them. Hill's defends their use of by-products because they include vitamin E, organ and muscle meats and another ingredient I can't recall (this is according to a brochure that was sent to the animal hospital where I work). Yes they may include these but what else? How do we know that is all they include? And if they are so good, why not name them? It's because Hill's doesn't know either or they don't want us to know. That's what I, as a consumer, can only assume if they are going to hide behind by-products. Some companies use 'meat meal' or 'animal digest' - what meat and what animal? If a company cannot answer these questions or simply specify them in their ingredients list, then I must assume they don't know or they don't want me to know. I emailed Hill's a while ago asking about their by-products and other ingredients. I got their automatic email thanking me for my question and that I would receive a response when their representatives were available, but I haven't received any response at all. I emailed Purina regarding the inclusion of propylene glycol and hydrochloric acid in their Kibbles n' Bits food and I received a response. The rep didn't mention the hydrochloric acid but I did get a response. As far as I'm concerned, if they can claim their ingredients are so good, then they can name them in their ingredients list, not hide behind the name 'by-products'. (sorry repetitive)

I have fed my dog kibble, canned, homecooked and raw. I saw the biggest difference between kibble and homecooked (I went from kibble to homecooked to raw - sometimes canned when money runs out). Her tear stains diminished significantly, she was leaner and I didnt' have to force her to eat. Between grain-free raw and homecooked with grains, it's a toss up. Her poops are smaller on raw but her coat and tear stains were better on homecooked. But believe me, I often think of kibble as it is more convenient and I don't have to think about whether she's getting all her nutrients. 

I think you have to feed what works for you and your dog. You feed what you can afford, have time to prepare and what your dog likes. It sounds like everyone here thinks about what they feed their dog so that's what counts.


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## Questdriven (Nov 25, 2009)

I don't think this thread is active anymore and I have not read it the whole way through, so this may have been brought up, but in response to a post about by-products on the first page:
I agree, they're not bad for your dog...per se. I mean, liver, chicken feet, turkey necks and other organs or bone-y cuts are considered by-products, are they not? As a raw-feeder, I feed these regularly.
However, they should not be a main ingredient in a dog food as organs and bones should make up no more than 10% of the dog's diet.


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