# Aussiedoodle v. Goldendoodle/Labradoodle



## sweetsugar (Jan 4, 2016)

What are the features of Aussiedoodles and Golden/Labradoodles that make each mix* distinct?


----------



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

They're mixes, not breeds, so they don't have a standard or anything. Half is poodle, so that part is pretty consistent. Then take the difference in temperaments between aussies, labs, and goldens and those are probably the differences you'll see when mixed with poodle.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

They aren't breeds . Well, OK, there is/was (not sure if they kept it up) a line of Labradoodles that were starting to breed true after several generations, but most you'll come across are Lab/Poodle mixes. I've never met an Aussiedoodle but I would assume they'd be "herdier" than a Lab or Golden mix. Poodles, Labs, and Goldens are all retrievers, so their personalities aren't dramatically different from one another. Mixing herder with Poodle could come up with some interesting results. But like I said, I've never met an Aussie/Poodle mix so I can't say for sure.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

My puppy is from a Golden Retriever by a Poodle who had Aussie in him. I think the only thing Bonnie inherited from him is her merle coloring. The Poodle was "supposed to be" a Moyen Poodle but was white with merle markings and they also bred Aussies so can sort of guess what happened as Poodles do not come in merle and she definitely has Aussie coloring.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I knew a guy who had always had Goldens, but got himself a Golden Doodle - hoping to get a low-shedding bird dog. What he ended up with was a skittish, high-energy dog who was afraid of the water. Odd, considering both poodles and Goldens have been used for duck hunting.

Bottom line is It's a Total Crapshoot.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

RonE said:


> I knew a guy who had always had Goldens, but got himself a Golden Doodle - hoping to get a low-shedding bird dog. What he ended up with was a skittish, high-energy dog who was afraid of the water. Odd, considering both poodles and Goldens have been used for duck hunting.
> 
> Bottom line is It's a Total Crapshoot.


I've never met a doodle that wasn't seriously high strung. They've certainly been nice dogs, don't get me wrong, but wound really, really tight.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

I think it's because what lines the doodle breeders are using aren't really good. I've met some pretty poorly bred poodles and they're all nervous wrecks. Breed that with a golden and you risk getting high-strung puppies terrified of their own shadows like the poodle parent.

I've met one goldendoodle who is bomb-proof. She is an outdoor dog, so not much socialization, but she is sweet, gentle, and unflinching. I also met a very well-bred standard poodle SD and his temperament reminded me of that goldendoodle's.

I'd meet both the parents and go from there. If one or both have health issues or are high-strung nervous wrecks, run from the breeder.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I honestly can't tell a difference between labradoodles and Goldendoodles. They look and act about the same. 

The aussiedoodles I've met have been smaller and definitely have a more herder type temperament to them. 

Look for a breeder that health tests. I know in labradoodles at least there quite a few breeders (especially the Australian labradoodles) that utilize OFA testing for hips. If you google Australian labradoodle club they have a breeder list. Assuming you're in the US. Their COE requires health certs. I'd link but on the phone right now.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I honestly can't tell a difference between labradoodles and Goldendoodles. They look and act about the same.


Same here. I just call them all 'doodles' or recently I've started using 'doodlers', they're very popular here.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> My puppy is from a Golden Retriever by a Poodle who had Aussie in him. I think the only thing Bonnie inherited from him is her merle coloring. The Poodle was "supposed to be" a Moyen Poodle but was white with merle markings and they also bred Aussies so can sort of guess what happened as Poodles do not come in merle and she definitely has Aussie coloring.


You weren't in Arlington this summer, were you? I saw a dog exactly like yours for a few days this past summer. I was dying to know where they got a merle poodle from, but I always had Kabota with me, so I didn't want to approach a strange dog to ask.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I think because both of Bonnie's parents had really good natures she has a really good temperament. Scared of nothing and really smart to train. She is five months old now and weighs 25 lbs. I just gave her her first haircut as they do have a messy looking coat but I knew I would be clipping her when I got her and must admit I would not have gotten her if she had not been a merle coloring. She will just be a medium sized dog which I was looking for. This is her father.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I am seeing more and more Doodles with wild and nervous temperaments. I am guessing this is due to poor breeding practices because people don't choose their breeders very wisely. The only Aussiedoodle I know is a bag of nerves and a very, very weird dog. Labradoodles and Goldendoodles are both pretty similar and can be very hyper while young. Most Doodles I know are friendly, goofy, derpy, playful and energetic. 

KEEP IN MIND the ridiculous grooming requirements of these dogs. Don't force your groomer to keep your dog's hair long if you don't plan to brush it every single day with a brush AND comb. Groomers charge a lot for these dogs, because they are a lot of work. 

Please get a doodle from a breeder who does OFA health testing, raises all of their dogs indoors, makes you sign a contract to return the puppy to them and doesn't lie about them being completely hypoallergenic. Do not buy your puppy online where you cannot go the home and see the dogs. Don't buy from puppy mills/high volume breeders or breeders that aren't putting their all into these dogs. What you pay for is what you support. That is, if you are considering buying a doodle at all.


----------



## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

My area is FULL of doodles. Goldendoodles, labradoodles, now "bernedoodles" are becoming popular. I saw an 11 month old recently with HORRIBLE hips, you could tell just by looking that he has hip dysplasia. I've met some nice goldendoodles, but most of them and all labradoodles I've met have been crazy.

The worst part is because they're popular, people are getting them without knowing what they're getting into. I have people registering for my classes with doodles who have long lists of really simple to fix problems, just untrained and underexercised, huge dogs that they were told would be 30 pounds.


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm not opposed to out-crossing when it makes sense but I really have a problem with people just willy nilly creating these mixes... either because the pups will be "cute" or have "cool" markings or other reasons that don't have anything to do with the lines they're breeding. It just... rubs me the wrong way. Breeding should only happen in order to further the breed and BETTER their health, produce better and better pups, etc. (IMO). Also anything-doodle just sounds so cheesy I can't take it seriously. :sorry:


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

TGKvr said:


> I'm not opposed to out-crossing when it makes sense but I really have a problem with people just willy nilly creating these mixes... either because the pups will be "cute" or have "cool" markings or other reasons that don't have anything to do with the lines they're breeding. It just... rubs me the wrong way. Breeding should only happen in order to further the breed and BETTER their health, produce better and better pups, etc. (IMO). Also anything-doodle just sounds so cheesy I can't take it seriously. :sorry:


The guy who created labradoodles really regrets it. He was trying to make a hypoallergenic guide dog for a blind woman allergic to dogs. He never intended what ended up happening.

I have no problem with cross breeding _to a purpose_. Willy nilly doodling to make money is not okay.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Eh, I don't think willy-nilly doodling is any worse than, say, willy-nilly Maltese-ing . Any breeding should be undertaken with due diligence. I don't actually think there are more (proportionately) bad breeders of doodles than of purebreds.


----------



## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

I have a "schnoodle" which I personally think sounds even more ridiculous than a "doodle." Obviously not one of the mixes you've asked about, but I can say he has a lot of energy! Several forum members have said he looks like he has some merle in him so it's possible he has aussie in there too. We got him from a rescue so I don't know for sure and obviously I'm not aware of any health testing or care that was done in his breeding. I can't imagine him in a house where the only exercise he gets is a daily walk (which seems to be more than what most of my neighbors give their dogs). Last week he came along for two 8 mile bike rides (varying his speed from a trot to full out sprint) and several 3 mile hikes through the woods, plus running around the backyard. He settles down well at home now and is fine with lounging around, but you can tell when it's been a while since he really got a good run in... he starts getting antsy and mischievous. He's a bit wary of some strangers, which may be the std schnauzer in him. Once he gets to sniff the person or they give him a treat he's good to go and is super affectionate.

We regularly get together with 3 goldendoodles, one is 90lbs, one is 45lbs and the other is maybe 25lbs. The little one is feisty and sometimes picks little fights with the other dogs. The 45lb one is pretty low key and I think she's been doing some service work in nursing homes so she's very good with people. The 90lb doodle is a bit aloof and doesn't really like any kind of affection. None of them are skittish or too hyperactive (with the exception of the little one, but he's also only about a year old). I know the 90lb doodle came from a reputable breeder that did health testing, but I'm not sure about the others.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here's the breed club I mentioned. I don't know about the breeders personally but they have a good solid COE and from spot checking the breeders they look pretty decent. 

http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us

I've honestly not had any negative experiences with doodles at all and I see them around a lot. Just do your research.


----------



## sweetsugar (Jan 4, 2016)

What questions should I ask a goldendoodle breeder?


----------



## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

What health tests have they done?
What are their dogs and the dogs they've produced like?
Do they have a reference (previous buyer) you could talk to?
Do they prove their dogs in show or sport?
Do they have a health guarantee?
Would they take the puppy back if it doesn't work out?

I'm sure there are more.


----------



## Na-Tasha (Aug 13, 2014)

If I _had_ to choose of those three I'd get a goldendoodle. I've met two, one belonged to a vet and so was the "greeter" dog at the vet office. It looked exactly like a golden retriever, but the fur was....wonky, I can't really describe it. Very calm temperament and very friendly to people and animals that came in. The other I met was odd. My sister and I were at an event and saw this girl walking a large black furry dog. We were trying to guess the breed but were stumped, so when she came close we asked and she said "goldendoodle." It looked like neither breed, it was so odd looking, but other than pulling a bit on the leash (there was a lot of activity going on, so an excited dog was to be expected), seemed to be a great dog.


----------



## MastiffGuy (Mar 23, 2015)

Willowy said:


> Eh, I don't think willy-nilly doodling is any worse than, say, willy-nilly Maltese-ing . Any breeding should be undertaken with due diligence. I don't actually think there are more (proportionately) bad breeders of doodles than of purebreds.


Not sure if your joking or not. 
Sure there are bad breeders for every pure breed, but with the doodles and other designer mutt mixes, the vast majority are bad breeders. 

In the last year or year and half, they have become more and more popular here, and I see them temper and health wise all over the place.

Like most dogs seen in public, your going to see the better side, most of the complete messes you will not see in public.

Biggest thing for the poster would be to do research on who your getting the dog from and visit the parents. (Research the health testing also).


----------



## HVani (Jun 11, 2015)

In my area there are so many doodles. If I had to choose one I would do a goldendoodle. I would also be super picky about where she came from. I have met a lot of labradoodles that are borderline insane or just plain brutes. For aussiedoodles it's a total crap shoot. I have met 1 that was a pretty good dog but he was such a handfull. His owner said all the others puppies from his litter went on to be unstable and all had bitten someone at least once. The others I have met have been very high strung combined with herding dog traits, not fun dogs to be around.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> Not sure if your joking or not.
> Sure there are bad breeders for every pure breed, but with the doodles and other designer mutt mixes, the vast majority are bad breeders.


Maybe it's because I live in the midwest (puppymill central), but my perception is that the vast majority of purebred breeders are bad breeders too. I don't see the mix breeders being any worse than the purebred breeders, in fact usually the same breeders breeds both mixes and purebreds.

For a specific example: I read an article in which they interviewed a local breeder. She said she used to breed Labs and Standard Poodles, but she could only get $300 for a Lab pup and $600 for a Poodle pup. But then found she could get $1200 for a mix of the 2 breeds, and demand was much higher! So of course she started mixing. I don't think her breeding practices changed when she started mixing. She either was a good breeder before and continued to be a good breeder, or she was a bad breeder before and continued to be a bad breeder (the article did not discuss her breeding practices). The specific breeds she was mixing or not doesn't change that.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

The Labradoodle group (? if you can call them that) contains a big mix of breeders. There is a segment who are trying to make a breed of what began with a hybrid. 

You need to understand a little Mendelian genetics to understand what's going on. Broadly speaking, first generation (F1) crosses have predictable features. Second generation crosses (F2 generation) are all over the place, which is why you don't save seeds when you plant hybrid corn or tomatoes. Further generations (F3, F4 .... FN), with deliberate selection, can create a more stable and predictable type.

There has been a movement to move to starndardised features in the F3, F4 . . . and beyond generations and make the Labradoodle into a breed. Australian breeders have been active in this . .. So Aussie doesn't mean there's yet a third breed introduced. But there's so much confusion around this that I'd ask any breeder for detailed description of what they are breeding for, and what has been done in past breedings to accomplish what they're aiming for.

The same sort of thing can happen for any cross breed . . ie., the F1 hybrid gives a fairly predictable result. The next generation is very mixed. Selection in the third, forth, etc., generations could produce a new, stabilized breed. But you have to work from a large set of breeding dogs to do this without a lot of inbreeding. 

Bottom line is you need to take a critical look at the breeder, their breeding program, and their aims. Do they screen for health and temperament? How do they select? Are they just pushing expensive puppies that are supposedly hyperallogenic, but are going to require a lot of grooming? Do they even know what they are doing other than making a few hundred bucks per puppy? Ask for referrals, and only be impressed if some of the referrals have had their dogs for 10+ years.


----------



## TGKvr (Apr 29, 2015)

I think we probably all agree there are bad breeders no matter which route you go.... However. One should consider the purpose of breeding. For those breeding mixes... what is the end game? Are they just trying to make a cute puppy? Are they trying to establish a NEW breed that will eventually breed true? Are they trying to produce a dog that performs certain tasks best by combining desired traits of each breed? I'm just skeptical that the majority of breeders of mixes have any other goal in mind other than turning out a cute/popular dog and making some cash. With purebreeds, most established breeds have a purpose and whether that's show or field, I find that breeders in this category are much more health-conscious and aware of each dog's lineage. Clearly there are exceptions but these are simply my observations about breeding pure vs. mix.
Also it's worth noting that almost every pure breed was a mix at some point in its history... so I'm not condemning mixes all together if there is a viable strategy/end goal of producing quality dogs with a particular purpose.

**Edit: posted before I saw sandgrubber's post...


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I think the *purpose* of the majority of American dogs is to be a pet. Purebred or mixed. Most purebred dogs aren't even AKC registered so it's not like anyone can claim they're being bred for show. If someone is producing healthy, stable pet dogs I'd consider that as "noble" a purpose as any.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Maybe it's because I live in the midwest (puppymill central), but my perception is that the vast majority of purebred breeders are bad breeders too. I don't see the mix breeders being any worse than the purebred breeders, in fact usually the same breeders breeds both mixes and purebreds.


I think living near a puppymill hub (PA is one as well) tends to negatively color ones perception of the quantity of good vs bad breeders. Also, since the bad breeders are producing SO MANY dogs compared to a good breeder with only a few litters a year, it seems that the overwhelming majority of breeders are bad. Add to that BYBs and it just seems like a flood of horrible breeders. In terms of quantity of pups, I think bad definitely outweighs good, but I like to think that just in terms of number of breeders, good breeders aren't that far outmatched. But then, I guess it's really quantity of healthy vs poorly pups that really matters in the long run, anyway :/

As for doodle mixes, I've personally never met one that wasn't neurotic, guard-y, insanely high energy, or just all around nutty. BUT my husband did just tell me that his co-worker has two goldendoodles that seem to be decent dogs. If I were to get any kind of doddle mix, it would probably be a goldendoodle. I've never met or seen an aussiedoodle, but I can't imagine that mix would be at all calm. Why not just get a poodle or an aussie or a golden or a lab? You have to remember that with most of these 'designer' crosses, they're all in the first generation (a poodle bred to a golden, for example). So it's really a toss up, genetically, of which traits from either breed are going to come into play. You could get a very poodle-like dog, you could get a very golden-like dog, you could get ANYTHING in between.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> You could get a very poodle-like dog, you could get a very golden-like dog, you could get ANYTHING in between.


Not really. As sandgrubber mentioned, first-generation mixes are pretty consistent, as they each get 50% genetic material from each parent. So if each parent is a purebred, the traits will be fairly predictable---50% Lab (or whatever), 50% Poodle. Second-generation, in which each parent is a mix, is much less predictable.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

One good example of the consistency in F1 hybrids is looking at the bobtail boxer F1 litter. F1 is virtually the same variation you'd see in a purebred litter. F2 is very inconsistent

That's why a lot of mixed breed breeders only breed F1. There's not a need to move beyond and it takes a lot more breeders and dogs to cement a breed type...


----------



## dogsule (Nov 6, 2013)

TGKvr said:


> I think we probably all agree there are bad breeders no matter which route you go.... However. One should consider the purpose of breeding. For those breeding mixes... what is the end game? Are they just trying to make a cute puppy? Are they trying to establish a NEW breed that will eventually breed true? Are they trying to produce a dog that performs certain tasks best by combining desired traits of each breed? I'm just skeptical that the majority of breeders of mixes have any other goal in mind other than turning out a cute/popular dog and making some cash. With purebreeds, most established breeds have a purpose and whether that's show or field, I find that breeders in this category are much more health-conscious and aware of each dog's lineage. Clearly there are exceptions but these are simply my observations about breeding pure vs. mix.
> Also it's worth noting that almost every pure breed was a mix at some point in its history... so I'm not condemning mixes all together if there is a viable strategy/end goal of producing quality dogs with a particular purpose.
> 
> **Edit: posted before I saw sandgrubber's post...


I totally agree with this. What is the purpose of any doodle, what do they want the dog to do? There are plenty of cute accidental mixes and cute purebreds that could serve the same purpose. I am a bit biased though since the poodle is on my list of least desired dog or breed of dog I would not ever want to own. I never had a poodle but growing up our neighbors had poodles and I just didn't care for them at all. They were good dogs, just not my cup of tea.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Fair enough! The doodles I've met have all varied wildly in looks, temperament, everything. But that could just come down to vast differences in individual breeding dogs.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Please dont support "doodling" in any shape or form, please.

Yes, yes there are bad breeders in every breed, but $4k for a dog (I can still get a decent CAR for that!) is gouging, and lets face it, its a breed that eas created for nothing other than to make a profit, and cash in on people's naivety.


----------



## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I honestly don't understand why people search out "doodles". They're mixed breed dogs, mutts. A friend of mine is allergic to dogs, got a labradoodle because the breeder said they were hypoallergenic....what part of labrador is hypoallergenic? 

If you want a doodle, good for you but realize they aren't a breed. If you want to pay good money for a mutt, at least buy sensibly. Wish I had the link for the doodle breeder charging a ridiculous amount ($2500 plus0 and if I remember ccorrectly, a crazy ccontract.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

There are people that spend 2k+ on purebreds all the time. It's really not that unusual. 

Mutt is not a dirty word. They can be bred well, just do your diligence on finding a breeder. There's over 3,300 labradoodles in the OFA database- there ARE breeders health testing.

If you don't like them, don't buy one.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

The point is, goldens, at best are dodgy genetically, at their worst, they are a train wreck, poodles, at best have their issues, too, at worst, they are bad, too. Most doodle breeders just breed a poodle and a golden / lab together ... ANY poodle and ANY golden / lab together, I have read horror stories about doodles messing up their joints just by being normally active, or being so badly dysplastic, that they cant even walk by the time they are a year old. 

Factor in the temperament issues and That to me doesnt sound like a dog that should be bred.

FYI if people want a dog that is easy on the allergies, just get a poodle, they come in three sizes, a size for everyone.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I linked a whole list of breeders that health test.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I've heard of Labs who couldn't walk by the time they're a year old, and the health problems of Goldens make you wonder if they should be bred at all. I don't see the difference between that and putting a Poodle in the mix. 

The Standard Poodles I've know have all been pretty "sharp" and not great with kids. Mixing some Lab or Golden in there seems to mellow them out and improve their kid-friendliness. And who doesn't love a big friendly shaggy dog? But I'm sure there are some not-so-great doodles out there too.


----------



## Mirzam (Jan 17, 2011)

Why not get a Barbet instead? Calm temperament and retriever-like qualities.


----------



## MastiffGuy (Mar 23, 2015)

With Pennhip testing Goldendoodles the current average is 0.58 goldens are 0.55 and poodles 0.49, labordoodles are scoring a average of 0.53 from 2 breeds that both score a average 0.49, personally feel this directly reflects on the stock being used to breed them.
A DI of ≤0.30 as "osteoarthritis-non-susceptible, or passing.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> I honestly don't understand why people search out "doodles". .


I honestly don't understand why people search out a lot of breeds that aren't my cup of tea. Whether you personally like them or not, in my experience doodles are a relatively consistent mix and the families who have them for their family dogs LOVE them. We see TONS of them. 

What a breeder charges or what someone else is willing to pay is sort of irrelevant to anything. I don't care how someone else spends their money. I wouldn't buy a Coach purse but it's no skin off my teeth if someone else wants to. 

I'm so over WHAT people are breeding. I just want to know HOW they are breeding. Cross breeding is not a new thing, it's been quietly happening for as long as pure breds have existed. Why people object SO strongly to doodles over all the other purpose bred crosses out there... I just don't get it.


----------



## MastiffGuy (Mar 23, 2015)

sassafras said:


> I honestly don't understand why people search out a lot of breeds that aren't my cup of tea. Whether you personally like them or not, in my experience doodles are a relatively consistent mix and the families who have them for their family dogs LOVE them. We see TONS of them.
> 
> What a breeder charges or what someone else is willing to pay is sort of irrelevant to anything. I don't care how someone else spends their money. I wouldn't buy a Coach purse but it's no skin off my teeth if someone else wants to.
> 
> I'm so over WHAT people are breeding. I just want to know HOW they are breeding. Cross breeding is not a new thing, it's been quietly happening for as long as pure breds have existed. Why people object SO strongly to doodles over all the other purpose bred crosses out there... I just don't get it.


Might be because there showing to be less healthy than the breeds they come from which are not known to be exactly of the greatest health?

Your a vet and I as a tech that visits 4 to 8 homes a day sees more issues with them, than you do?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

MastiffGuy said:


> Your a vet and I as a tech that visits 4 to 8 homes a day sees more issues with them, than you do?


Apparently? I'm not sure what to say to this. I'm sure there are regional differences in breeding dogs and lines. I haven't really seen any more problems than the parent breeds myself.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Every lab and every poodle is perfectly healthy and mentally stable. lol


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

sweetsugar said:


> What questions should I ask a goldendoodle breeder?


Ask them about their breeding program and their dog's typical temperaments. 
How they select puppies for each potential home. 
Ask them what sort of socialization they do and if they do any special puppy rearing programs. (Early neurological stimulation and such is usually a sign of an educated breeder)
Ask them about their contract, what kind of guarantees they make and their return policy. 
Genetic health testing (NOT a vet check!)
What kind of activities do they do with their dogs? Do they have any titles? Therapy work? Etc.

I think also equally importantly.. are they asking you a bunch of questions? A good breeder who cares about where their puppies go will ask you what you are looking for in a dog and what its home life will be like. 

For the record, I don't see much consistency in doodles at all. It must be because the poodles and goldens/labs themselves they are breeding are so different. Some have thick wavy coats, some have very thin wispy coats, some have VERY curly coats. Medium to friggin giant etc..


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> Ask them about their breeding program and their dog's typical temperaments.
> How they select puppies for each potential home.
> Ask them what sort of socialization they do and if they do any special puppy rearing programs. (Early neurological stimulation and such is usually a sign of an educated breeder)
> Ask them about their contract, what kind of guarantees they make and their return policy.
> ...


Good list. I'd extend it a bit. In asking about breeding program ask the breeder
1. what are your goals? what temperament are you aiming for? what look/size/coat type? how do you manage your breeding program to achieve these goals . . . plus the obvious but often ignored goals of good health. Don't tell the breeder what you are looking for lest they frame their reply to say 'we breed just what you are looking for' (consciously, or unconsciously). 
2. the stimulation stuff is fashionable. Don't overlook old fashioned breeders who don't talk the talk . . . but raise their pups in an environment that is very interesting and exciting for a dog (eg., a farm or property where the pups get a chance to romp, maybe swim, dog holes, chase insects, etc.).'
3. referrals are helpful. Doesn't hurt to talk with a few people who have purchased pups from them.
4. It's not reasonable to expect cross breeds to have show credentials in their pedigrees. Club-registered breeders generally won't sell to people who cross breed, and disdain letting their stud dog be used for a cross. Only rarely will they have working credentials (golden-labs and labradoodles have some history as service dogs, but not much). If you are into agility, by all means, look for a breeder who does agility and breeds for it.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

InkedMarie said:


> I honestly don't understand why people search out "doodles". They're mixed breed dogs, mutts. A friend of mine is allergic to dogs, got a labradoodle because the breeder said they were hypoallergenic....what part of labrador is hypoallergenic?
> 
> If you want a doodle, good for you but realize they aren't a breed. If you want to pay good money for a mutt, at least buy sensibly. Wish I had the link for the doodle breeder charging a ridiculous amount ($2500 plus0 and if I remember ccorrectly, a crazy ccontract.


Right?



sassafras said:


> I honestly don't understand why people search out a lot of breeds that aren't my cup of tea. Whether you personally like them or not, in my experience doodles are a relatively consistent mix and the families who have them for their family dogs LOVE them. We see TONS of them.
> 
> What a breeder charges or what someone else is willing to pay is sort of irrelevant to anything. I don't care how someone else spends their money. I wouldn't buy a Coach purse but it's no skin off my teeth if someone else wants to.
> 
> I'm so over WHAT people are breeding. I just want to know HOW they are breeding. Cross breeding is not a new thing, it's been quietly happening for as long as pure breds have existed. Why people object SO strongly to doodles over all the other purpose bred crosses out there... I just don't get it.


Sure, in the south, a lot of hog hunters breed their own stock, and ranchers have been breeding their own lines of herding and working dogs for years, but they are bred for a PURPOSE, not just to be able to charge $4k and some poor, unsuspecting family will pay it. 

Like I said, the number one reason people get a doodle is because they are "hypoallergenic" (though no breed is really hypoallergenic anyway so that reason is really moot). If they wanted a dog that is easy on the allergies, there are MANY MANY breeds of all sizes and styles to choose from!

Poodle (they come in 3 sizes!)
Bichon
Afghan hound
American hairless terrier
Bedlington Terrier
Chinese Crested
Coton de Tulear
Irish Water Spaniels
Kerry Blue Terrier
Maltese
Schnauzer (also 3 sizes)

And that is only a FEW! there are many more.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Sure, in the south, a lot of hog hunters breed their own stock, and ranchers have been breeding their own lines of herding and working dogs for years, but they are bred for a PURPOSE, not just to be able to charge $4k and some poor, unsuspecting family will pay it.


Companionship is a PURPOSE. I see a lot of doodles who are fantastic family dogs, that is not a PURPOSE? 

And how are they unsuspecting? Why do you care how much of their own money they paid for their own dog? 



> Like I said, the number one reason people get a doodle is because they are "hypoallergenic"


What are you basing this on? The number one reason I see people get a doodle is because they want a family dog and have known someone else with a doodle who was a great family dog. I literally have never had a client say they chose them because they thought they would be hypoallergenic. 



> If they wanted a dog that is easy on the allergies, there are MANY MANY breeds of all sizes and styles to choose from!


It always boggles me when you pull this out when _you have a recently created breed_. There were many, many small herders to choose from, why did we need to create MAS? How would you like someone continually telling you that you can't have an MAS because it's purpose isn't good enough for them, you need to choose from one of many, many other breeds to choose from? It's ridiculous.


----------



## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

The only people I know who purposefully bought a doodle because they wanted a low-shedding dog got adult shelter dogs that clearly had the low-shed coats...


----------



## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

My Shih tzu/ Poodle is everything I wanted in a dog, and everything I didn't know I wanted in a dog. She's killed it for 4 years as a therapy dog for dementia patients, rocks as my weekend agility dog, and is just my go-everywhere do everything little buddy. I can't really know if she was an oops or deliberate, but whatever it was it made for an awesome dog. 

Would definitely consider a health tested doodle in the future.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

BigLittle said:


> The only people I know who purposefully bought a doodle because they wanted a low-shedding dog got adult shelter dogs that clearly had the low-shed coats...


When I had a boarding kennel we got lots of 'oodles. Many of them were great dogs. Some weren't. And there were a few who thought they were getting a small or medium dog and ended out with a standard poodle x large Labrador. We got some real lemon Labradors too, not to mention problem individuals of almost every breed that walked through the door.
I think many people find 'no shed', while sounding good, ends out with unanticipated grooming needs. But some people are fine with having their dogs in to the groomer a few times a year to avoid tangles. It's a trade-off. 
As for health questions . . . the cross breeder has a problem. The pedigree dog world doesn't want to sell to them. So many end up breeding from dogs that don't meet the highest standard. Sometimes the downside is cosmetic, sometimes it is substantial. There are also lots of purebred, pedigree dogs who are not bred to the highest standard.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I got Bonnie because I wanted a medium sized dog that was probably low shedding but I could also keep her clipped. Something you cannot really do with most medium sized breeds. A Miniature poodle was too small and a standard too big. Her being a merle also was a plus for me.
So far she has been great and loves to play with Kris and also my smaller dogs.


----------



## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

LoMD13 said:


> My Shih tzu/ Poodle is everything I wanted in a dog, and everything I didn't know I wanted in a dog. She's killed it for 4 years as a therapy dog for dementia patients, rocks as my weekend agility dog, and is just my go-everywhere do everything little buddy. I can't really know if she was an oops or deliberate, but whatever it was it made for an awesome dog.
> 
> Would definitely consider a health tested doodle in the future.


Okay let's be honest. If there was a doodle breeder selling Shih Tzu x Poodles that were Lo clones for $2k a pop, I'd buy like three of them.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Companionship is a PURPOSE. I see a lot of doodles who are fantastic family dogs, that is not a PURPOSE?
> 
> And how are they unsuspecting? Why do you care how much of their own money they paid for their own dog?
> 
> ...


You know that MAS were bred down from an already established breed, right? there was no combining two breeds together to get the MAS. it was breeding a small aussie to another small aussie, not even the same thing at all.

Also, I didnt pay $4k or whatever for him (I am not going to disclose what I paid, that is none of anyone's business).

But I guess since I have a "created" breed I cant have an opinion? than if that is true you cant have one either, since all breeds were essentially "created".


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> You know that MAS were bred down from an already established breed, right? there was no combining two breeds together to get the MAS. it was breeding a small aussie to another small aussie, not even the same thing at all.


It's still a new breed (and there are many claims that other breeds were mixed in. I don't believe it was done by purely miniaturization). If you want a small longhaired dog, why not get a Papillon or a Japanese Chin or a Shih Tzu? Sounds absurd, you say, because they're all very different from an MAS? Um, yeah, that's the point here.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> You know that MAS were bred down from an already established breed, right? there was no combining two breeds together to get the MAS. it was breeding a small aussie to another small aussie, not even the same thing at all.
> 
> Also, I didnt pay $4k or whatever for him (I am not going to disclose what I paid, that is none of anyone's business).
> 
> But I guess since I have a "created" breed I cant have an opinion? than if that is true you cant have one either, since all breeds were essentially "created".


I'm not telling you that you can't have an opinion. I'm pointing out the silliness of criticizing people for wanting a mix and telling them existing breeds should be "good enough" for them when you have a breed that was created. It doesn't matter if it was bred down or had other breeds introduced, it didn't used to exist and it wouldn't exist if the people who bred it down believed it when they were told that other existing breeds should be good enough for them.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Willowy said:


> It's still a new breed (and there are many claims that other breeds were mixed in. I don't believe it was done by purely miniaturization). If you want a small longhaired dog, why not get a Papillon or a Japanese Chin or a Shih Tzu? Sounds absurd, you say, because they're all very different from an MAS? Um, yeah, that's the point here.


Excuse me, but my dog does NOT have toy blood in him, he is the last outcross into the aussie breed before the studbooks closed, his mother was an aussie from pure working lines, she was just small, his father was a MAS from show and sport bred aussies, I have Lincoln's pedigree, I can verify this.



sassafras said:


> I'm not telling you that you can't have an opinion. I'm pointing out the silliness of criticizing people for wanting a mix and telling them existing breeds should be "good enough" for them when you have a breed that was created. It doesn't matter if it was bred down or had other breeds introduced, it didn't used to exist and it wouldn't exist if the people who bred it down believed it when they were told that other existing breeds should be good enough for them.


Because the doodle mix is not a good one, the temperament isnt constant, the coat consistency isnt constant, and the top reason down her for wanting one is because they are "designer" and "cool" and "hypoallergenic", and when you ask people why not just get a poodle, they are agast, and say because they didnt want a "vfroo froo dog" ... that's it ... that's the only reason for creating this breed .... at least IME.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Because the doodle mix is not a good one, the temperament isnt constant, the coat consistency isnt constant, and the top reason down her for wanting one is because they are "designer" and "cool" and "hypoallergenic", and when you ask people why not just get a poodle, they are agast, and say because they didnt want a "vfroo froo dog" ... that's it ... that's the only reason for creating this breed .... at least IME.


Actually, most people I know with Doodles wanted low/non shedding dog that is on the larger side with family dog characteristics. I'm not a huge fan of Poodles or Doodles.. but I'll be honest and say I'd rather have the right Doodle. Poodles are just.. different and not everyone's cup of tea. There aren't many larger breed low shedding family style dog breeds.


----------



## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

The reason people choose doodles over poodles are the same simple, basic reasons people choose MAS over Shelties- they prefer the looks and the temperament. That's it. It's the same reason anybody chooses any dog. If I had wanted a toy poodle, I'd have gotten a toy poodle.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Because the doodle mix is not a good one, the temperament isnt constant, the coat consistency isnt constant, and the top reason down her for wanting one is because they are "designer" and "cool" and "hypoallergenic", and when you ask people why not just get a poodle, they are agast, and say because they didnt want a "vfroo froo dog" ... that's it ... that's the only reason for creating this breed .... at least IME.


I'm not sure where you're getting this "top reason" or information about the cross but this hasn't been my experience at all. We have TONS of families with doodles up here and the #1 reason I hear in chatting with people is that they wanted a great family dog and knew someone who had a doodle they really liked, so they went looking for a doodle. None of them think they are "designer" or "cool" but that they fit their needs at the time they are looking for a dog. And in my experience they actually are quite consistent. Maybe the ones I see are all coming from a handful of breeders but they really aren't wildly inconsistent at all. I don't ask them why they didn't just get a poodle instead because it's none of my dang business, any more than it's their business why I got a malinois instead of a GSD. 



LoMD13 said:


> The reason people choose doodles over poodles are the same simple, basic reasons people choose MAS over Shelties- they prefer the looks and the temperament. That's it. It's the same reason anybody chooses any dog. If I had wanted a toy poodle, I'd have gotten a toy poodle.


Exactly. They like them for some reason. Why that's a good enough reason to have a MAS but not a doodle escapes me. Maybe you can explain why you should have the choice to get the breed you want without derision but people who want doodles should be able to get the dogs they want without derision?


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

MAS actually started from Sandy Travis' dogs which don't look full Aussie. They looked pretty much like modern day toy aussies.

My shelties I could trace back to collies (people snuck them in but we know now they were mixing shelties and collies). 

Longhaired whippets have traces of herder (sheltie is what I have read) in them. But at any rate they have CEA and the MDR1 mutation which means there's some non whippet in there.

Papillons possibly came about because a breeder that had toy spaniels also bred poms and magically had upright eared puppies (So one school of thought says). 

I like doodles over poodles and MAS over shelties and Silkens over LHW and papillons over poms. Why? I just... do?


----------



## Dogsignalfire (Nov 17, 2015)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> You know that MAS were bred down from an already established breed, right? there was no combining two breeds together to get the MAS. it was breeding a small aussie to another small aussie, not even the same thing at all.
> 
> Also, I didnt pay $4k or whatever for him (I am not going to disclose what I paid, that is none of anyone's business).
> 
> But I guess since I have a "created" breed I cant have an opinion? than if that is true you cant have one either, since all breeds were essentially "created".


(Just replying to this quickly) I think as a new breed that's really still developing, there are a lot of dogs out there (who are unrelated to Sandy Travis dogs) being labeled as MAS who have various other breeds mixed in and then bred back to small Aussies, or there are just small Aussies bred to small Aussies and labeled as MAS. And then there are small Aussies bred to small Aussies and still labeled as Aussies, because that's what they are. From what I understand, there's also still just a wide variation of appearance within what's labeled as MAS because of this.

(I totally found an old old thread for these pictures LOL) 

Here are some of Sandy Travis' foundation dogs.


----------



## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

There are a lot of really bad doodles in the area. I don't think I've ever actually met a good doodle. Many people do seem to be buying them because they are a fad but that really isn't any different than the people who are buying Aussies or Huskies because they are popular. I cannot say if the reason I have met so many bad ones is because I am meeting the ones coming through shelters or if they are just really unstable locally. I see a lot of coat variation, from the more poodle like coat to a plush coat that does shed quite heavily and a wire coat. I also see a lot of high strung, SA, and DA dogs. To be fair I am seeing that in the labs and lab mixes in the area as well so that may be a consideration in at least part of the doodle population. This area seems to struggle in general with a lot of really questionable people just throwing any two dogs together and in that type of situation you are not going to get the best results. When your breeding population has poor temperament you are going to get puppies with poor temperaments. At this point the breeders have moved on though, now it is St. Berdoodles, Shepoodles, Great Danoodles, and Bernoodles. I do have to wonder what the point of breeding a poodle with every other breed is?


----------



## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

My experience is identical to remaru's. I don't think I'd have a problem with the mixes if people were more careful about where they were getting them. Here, status is king. So people get doodles because so-and-so has one, or they will get a "rare" doodle (like a bernedoodle) because everyone has goldendoodles and they want to be special (these are not assumptions, these are straight from the owners mouth) but instead of seeking out a breeder who tests, they order online or go to their nearest pet store. I met a lady with a "bernedoodle" that was 15 lbs, and looked an awful lot like the "havapoos" I meet. 

In my area, people are getting MAS's that are advertised as shelties and they literally do no research, so they don't even realize that the standard schnauzer they bought from the pet shop is actually a Tibetan terrier. So my bias is more towards the people doing the breeding than the people doing the buying. Most don't know any better.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Probably the same reason everybody breeds Maltese and Poodles to it seems every other breed not counting the Doodles.

Just noticed the AKC has let another breed into the Registry. It is an American Hairless Terrier and was first started from a hairless dog that turned up in a Rat Terrier litter in 1970.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dogsignalfire said:


> (Just replying to this quickly) I think as a new breed that's really still developing, there are a lot of dogs out there (who are unrelated to Sandy Travis dogs) being labeled as MAS who have various other breeds mixed in and then bred back to small Aussies, or there are just small Aussies bred to small Aussies and labeled as MAS. And then there are small Aussies bred to small Aussies and still labeled as Aussies, because that's what they are. From what I understand, there's also still just a wide variation of appearance within what's labeled as MAS because of this.
> 
> (I totally found an old old thread for these pictures LOL)
> 
> Here are some of Sandy Travis' foundation dogs.


When I was looking at minis most the dogs were crosses of 'mini lines' and then show Aussies and/or working Aussies.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Dogsignalfire said:


> (Just replying to this quickly) I think as a new breed that's really still developing, there are a lot of dogs out there (who are unrelated to Sandy Travis dogs) being labeled as MAS who have various other breeds mixed in and then bred back to small Aussies, or there are just small Aussies bred to small Aussies and labeled as MAS. And then there are small Aussies bred to small Aussies and still labeled as Aussies, because that's what they are. From what I understand, there's also still just a wide variation of appearance within what's labeled as MAS because of this.
> 
> (I totally found an old old thread for these pictures LOL)
> 
> Here are some of Sandy Travis' foundation dogs.





Remaru said:


> There are a lot of really bad doodles in the area. I don't think I've ever actually met a good doodle. Many people do seem to be buying them because they are a fad but that really isn't any different than the people who are buying Aussies or Huskies because they are popular. I cannot say if the reason I have met so many bad ones is because I am meeting the ones coming through shelters or if they are just really unstable locally. I see a lot of coat variation, from the more poodle like coat to a plush coat that does shed quite heavily and a wire coat. I also see a lot of high strung, SA, and DA dogs. To be fair I am seeing that in the labs and lab mixes in the area as well so that may be a consideration in at least part of the doodle population. This area seems to struggle in general with a lot of really questionable people just throwing any two dogs together and in that type of situation you are not going to get the best results. When your breeding population has poor temperament you are going to get puppies with poor temperaments. At this point the breeders have moved on though, now it is St. Berdoodles, Shepoodles, Great Danoodles, and Bernoodles. I do have to wonder what the point of breeding a poodle with every other breed is?





Laurelin said:


> When I was looking at minis most the dogs were crosses of 'mini lines' and then show Aussies and/or working Aussies.


I should add that there is no such thing as a "mini" or "toy" aussie, the aussie standard has no stringent height limitations either way. There is a PREFERRED height, but it is not a requirement.

The miniature american shepherd was bred from aussies, which is completely different from the "mini aussie". While I love my dog, I will not have another MAS, because I think they closed the studbooks on the breed and pushed for AKC registration to early, and I think it is going to create a bottleneck within the breed. That and my allergies wont allow me to have another.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So to what purpose were MAS bred for? Miniature sheep?


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I should add that there is no such thing as a "mini" or "toy" aussie, the aussie standard has no stringent height limitations either way. There is a PREFERRED height, but it is not a requirement.
> 
> The miniature american shepherd was bred from aussies, which is completely different from the "mini aussie". While I love my dog, I will not have another MAS, because I think they closed the studbooks on the breed and pushed for AKC registration to early, and I think it is going to create a bottleneck within the breed. That and my allergies wont allow me to have another.


I use mini for shorthand combining Miniature Americans and Mini Aussies. They were/are the same breed just save politics at this point. 

Toy aussies are a separate thing but I have to say I don't see why they are more/less legitimate than Minis. The people I know involved in them are long time dog show people (basenjis and TFT). They show conformation and agility with their 'toy aussies'.

I can get the gripe about the breed name just fine but ignoring the name controversy I can't see why minis are more legitimate than toys. I suspect toys will eventually be AKC under another name too (like minis have been).


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I should add that there is no such thing as a "mini" or "toy" aussie, the aussie standard has no stringent height limitations either way. There is a PREFERRED height, but it is not a requirement.


That would be incorrect.... Mini Aussies and MAS are the same thing.... Some Mini Aussies magically became MAS through the wonderful magic that is AKC Politics....


That being said.... Now there are two breeds that are one..... ala the APBT/AM Staff protocol..... There are MAS AND there are the "purists" that wanted their dogs to remain Miniature Aussies.... Same Breed, two registries..... 

http://mascaonline.com/


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> So to what purpose were MAS bred for? Miniature sheep?


Miniature sheep!

Oh John you slay me...


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

We have a sub species of whitetail deer in the keys.... Called Key Deer... They are small small... Like Bucks are 50 pounds...

It would seem unfair to me to chase those with full sized hounds.....

So what I am going to do is.... Take a Redbone Hound with a Chihuahua, then cross it back with a pug (Not sure why other than my gut thinks it is a good idea) ... Breed that back to a poodle (for hypoallergenic hunters) Then cross that back with a Labrador (The Keys are surrounded by Water so you need a water dog) Then cross all that back with a Papillon (because a lot of Pirates were french) 

The end result should be a fine hound for tiny deer..... And it is all good.... Because I purpose bred them.


There is this one minor issue that Key Deer are federally protected and cannot be hunted or molested. But I am confident that once USFWS sees my new hound they will grant me a special permit....


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> So to what purpose were MAS bred for? Miniature sheep?


Haha very funny, Lincoln herds full size cattle, thank you very much, he actually is too hard on sheep


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Haha very funny, Lincoln herds full size cattle, thank you very much, he actually is too hard on sheep


The point was.. your "breed" was controversial just like doodles. You just aren't giving doodle people any slack even though you get slack yourself.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Haha very funny, Lincoln herds full size cattle, thank you very much, he actually is too hard on sheep


Very tongue and cheek.... But you were rambling on about purpose bred and the fact remains there is no working advantage in having a smaller herding dog than a regular Aussie. And with stock of certain demeanor, the smaller dog could be at a distinct dis advantage...... 

The "purpose" that Mini Aussies aka MAS were developed was simply because people wanted a smaller dog....


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Very tongue and cheek.... But you were rambling on about purpose bred and the fact remains there is no working advantage in having a smaller herding dog than a regular Aussie. And with stock of certain demeanor, the smaller dog could be at a distinct dis advantage......
> 
> The "purpose" that Mini Aussies aka MAS were developed was simply because people wanted a smaller dog....


True and I donjt support the "bad" breeders in the MAS, either. Lincoln's breeder health tests, she does genetic testing, do a google search on doodles and you will likely have to go through a page or two before you find a remotely reputable one.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> True and I donjt support the "bad" breeders in the MAS, either. Lincoln's breeder health tests, she does genetic testing, do a google search on doodles and you will likely have to go through a page or two before you find a remotely reputable one.


Again, what are you basing this on? Your extensive research into doodle breeders?

I'm sure if I did a google search on MAS I would have to wade through a bunch of crappy breeders, too.

But if I were seriously looking for a breeder, I wouldn't be doing google searches at all lol.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> True and I donjt support the "bad" breeders in the MAS, either. Lincoln's breeder health tests, she does genetic testing, do a google search on doodles and you will likely have to go through a page or two before you find a remotely reputable one.


Except for that whole list on the breed club I linked way back on page 1.


----------



## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Doodles used to bother me more until I realized how infrequently they occur in shelters. We get purebred non-shedders more often than poo mixes. Why, I have no idea but if the breeders aren't pawning their stock off on shelters than its really none of my business. I mean I can dislike doodles all I want (and I'm not a fan) but I don't hold them to a different standard than purebred breeders. Decide what your ethical limitations are personally, go from there. Health tested dogs that don't end up in shelters? That's all I really care about for the masses. Doesn't matter to me what individuals want in a dog, and apparently tons of people like poo mixes cause we get more poodles than poos. WAY more low/non Shedders than poos.

(And ftr, people ask if we have poos more often than they ask if we have the purebreds that make up their chosen poo  ) doesn't make me want one, and I don't have to!


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

There are a lot of weird ideas in this thread, but here's one that I can't help but comment on: Poodles and Doodles are not interchangeable. POODLES AND DOODLES ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. I'm so freaking sick of the cries of "why don't they just get a Poodle!" I would sell my soul to have a Poodle again and I have no interest in owning a Doodle because they're different dogs. Different temperaments, different needs. The fact that Doodles have Poodle in them does not make them Poodles. It's like telling someone with Chessies to buy a Golden. They might both be retrievers, but they're different dogs.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> The point was.. your "breed" was controversial just like doodles. You just aren't giving doodle people any slack even though you get slack yourself.


Slack? MAS got little to no slack! they are still very much discriminated against (like people dismissing them because they are small, that means they can't herd.



Paviche said:


> There are a lot of weird ideas in this thread, but here's one that I can't help but comment on: Poodles and Doodles are not interchangeable. POODLES AND DOODLES ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. I'm so freaking sick of the cries of "why don't they just get a Poodle!" I would sell my soul to have a Poodle again and I have no interest in owning a Doodle because they're different dogs. Different temperaments, different needs. The fact that Doodles have Poodle in them does not make them Poodles. It's like telling someone with Chessies to buy a Golden. They might both be retrievers, but they're different dogs.





JohnnyBandit said:


> That would be incorrect.... Mini Aussies and MAS are the same thing.... Some Mini Aussies magically became MAS through the wonderful magic that is AKC Politics....
> 
> 
> That being said.... Now there are two breeds that are one..... ala the APBT/AM Staff protocol..... There are MAS AND there are the "purists" that wanted their dogs to remain Miniature Aussies.... Same Breed, two registries.....
> ...


I am sorry but I don't agree, that would be like saying the JRT and the PRT are the same dog, they are not. Their standards are different, and the APBT, and the AMstaff arent even the same breed anymore, either, not in type and not in temperament, give the MAS and the "mini" aussie enough time and they will split into two types, too.



> Very tongue and cheek.... But you were rambling on about purpose bred and the fact remains there is no working advantage in having a smaller herding dog than a regular Aussie. And with stock of certain demeanor, the smaller dog could be at a distinct dis advantage......
> 
> The "purpose" that Mini Aussies aka MAS were developed was simply because people wanted a smaller dog....


So by your opinion, corgis, polish lowland sheepdogs, Icelandic sheepdog, norwegian buhund, the puli, and other similar sized herding breeds shouldn't be able to do their jobs, either than, right?



> There are a lot of weird ideas in this thread, but here's one that I can't help but comment on: Poodles and Doodles are not interchangeable. POODLES AND DOODLES ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE. I'm so freaking sick of the cries of "why don't they just get a Poodle!" I would sell my soul to have a Poodle again and I have no interest in owning a Doodle because they're different dogs. Different temperaments, different needs. The fact that Doodles have Poodle in them does not make them Poodles. It's like telling someone with Chessies to buy a Golden. They might both be retrievers, but they're different dogs.


Again, the TOP reason I hear people getting doodles, is because they wanted a "hypoallergenic" dog, no other reason, to that reasoning I do ask, why not just gen a poodle, then?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I really doubt that's the only reason they made that choice. Do people ONLY choose Poodles because they're non-shedding? No, because there's a reason they didn't choose a Bichon or Westie or any of the other non-shedding breeds. Yes, non-shedding played a role in their choice, but they also made a choice about other traits. And, yeah, people should know there's no guarantee that a mix of a shedding and a non-shedding breed will be non-shedding, but, I dunno, at least respect their agency a little.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I am sorry but I don't agree, that would be like saying the JRT and the PRT are the same dog, they are not. Their standards are different, and the APBT, and the AMstaff arent even the same breed anymore, either, not in type and not in temperament, give the MAS and the "mini" aussie enough time and they will split into two types, too.


LOL it does not matter if you agree or not......

All of your examples are splits that happened for political reasons..... It does not matter if there are variations in standard...... Genetically they are the same breed of dog.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Oh and this....


> and the APBT, and the AMstaff arent even the same breed anymore,


Double LOL here... You can take an AKC Am Staff, send in the registration to the UKC and it will be registered as an APBT....

You really need to know the difference between type, standard, and breed.... You do not... You are interchanging all three to suit your opinion. It does not work that way.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

All splits that happen in breeds happen for political reasons, not just this breed. its why there are working lines and show lines in a lot of breeds, too.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> All splits that happen in breeds happen for political reasons, not just this breed. its why there are working lines and show lines in a lot of breeds, too.


All splits are not for political reasons... But I digress......

But the point is..... If a split happens in a breed of dogs... Genetically they are still the same breed regardless of the name... Unless outside genetics come in to play.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Someone has drunk the MAS kool-aid.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Someone has drunk the MAS kool-aid.


Perhaps, but It doesn't take away from my dog's awesomeness.


----------



## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Perhaps, but It doesn't take away from my dog's awesomeness.


Everyone thinks their dog is awesome. I sure do, and I have one of the dreaded Poodle crosses.


----------



## pinksand (Dec 11, 2013)

I think that saying that most people select doodles for their "hypoallergenic" reputation alludes to the quality of the people purchasing the dogs... clearly they aren't people who are going to research whatever breed they're selecting. It's the same for people who purchase a small high-strung dog because "little dogs are cute and harmless." Yes, there are idiots purchasing dogs for all kinds of stupid reasons without merit... those people also aren't likely to look into good breeding practices. The people I know with doodles selected them after doing their research and meeting doodles they loved. 

I do find that a lot of people have completely ridiculous and uneducated opinions about poodles. I can't tell you how many people I've encountered that think they're unintelligent based on their appearance in a show clip (frou frou). Someone with allergies was asking for a breed recommendation and everyone in the room was anti poodle... had they ever met one? No! This person also wanted a smart dog and wouldn't believe me that poodles are intelligent. They googled "smartest dogs" and guess what showed up at the top of the list? They still all hated poodles. Sometimes it's all just ignorance at play.


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

LoMD13 said:


> Everyone thinks their dog is awesome. I sure do, and I have one of the dreaded Poodle crosses.


Boo, hiss, shame. My dog IS awesome because he's a recent breed bred to be a smaller version of an existing breed. Because that's okay but other reasons are not.


----------



## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I am sorry but I don't agree, that would be like saying the JRT and the PRT are the same dog, they are not. Their standards are different, and the *APBT, and the AMstaff arent even the same breed anymore, either, not in type and not in temperament*, give the MAS and the "mini" aussie enough time and they will split into two types, too.


I can tell most apart by looking at them. 
What are the main differences in temperament that you find?


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Paviche said:


> Boo, hiss, shame. My dog IS awesome because he's a recent breed bred to be a smaller version of an existing breed. Because that's okay but other reasons are not.


My recent breed who was bred for no purpose other than smaller size is better than your mix who was bred for no purpose other than companionship!! 

:/


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

If I breed a working Poodle to a field Golden for working purpose, is that okay then?


----------



## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

sassafras said:


> My recent breed who was bred for no purpose other than smaller size is better than your mix who was bred for no purpose other than companionship!!
> 
> :/


I'm just glad that my Silken falls on the "right" side of the "unnecessary" spectrum! I dodged a bullet there.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

The bottom line is the doodle DOESNT make a good mix, that is what this whole thing is about, not about "created" breeds or what is okay and what is not. If the mix makes a good dog with a steady predictable temperament, then great, but the issue I have is crossing labs/goldens with poodles DOESNT make a good temperament. Now I have met schnauzer/poodle, and airedale/poodle mixes that were AWESOME, heck, I even met an aussie/poodle that was awesome. But I have never met a lab/golden and poodle mix that was any good for anything (no mind). 

The issue for me isnt the mixing of the breeds, its what COMES OUT of the mix.

So, since I have a "created" breed ... I guess I will have to wait until he passes away and I get fully into poodles to "officially" have an opinion about this, then?


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Just recognize that it is fully your opinion, not an objective fact. And that you have no basis for saying they shouldn't exist. If other people didn't like the results, they wouldn't buy them. And they do seem pretty popular and rarely end up in shelters, so I guess their owners are mostly satisfied.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> The bottom line is the doodle DOESNT make a good mix, that is what this whole thing is about, not about "created" breeds or what is okay and what is not. If the mix makes a good dog with a steady predictable temperament, then great, but the issue I have is crossing labs/goldens with poodles DOESNT make a good temperament. Now I have met schnauzer/poodle, and airedale/poodle mixes that were AWESOME, heck, I even met an aussie/poodle that was awesome. But I have never met a lab/golden and poodle mix that was any good for anything (no mind).


And I have met tons of them who are great family dogs. I'm not sure why you keep holding your experience up as evidence and then dismissing or ignoring others' experience. Maybe we just have better breeders up here than you have down there, but the clients I know with doodles love them as family dogs. If they're not your cup of tea then they're not your cup of tea, but that doesn't make them objectively awful. 



> So, since I have a "created" breed ... I guess I will have to wait until he passes away and I get fully into poodles to "officially" have an opinion about this, then?


Nobody has said that. What people are saying is that it's ludicrous to denigrate one while defending the other.



Willowy said:


> Just recognize that it is fully your opinion, not an objective fact. And that you have no basis for saying they shouldn't exist. If other people didn't like the results, they wouldn't buy them. And they do seem pretty popular and rarely end up in shelters, so I guess their owners are mostly satisfied.


Right, this said much more succinctly than I did. If you don't LIKE the cross, that's different than them being a "bad" cross. If they were so awful, people wouldn't get them and hang on to them.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.


----------



## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> The bottom line is the doodle DOESNT make a good mix, that is what this whole thing is about, not about "created" breeds or what is okay and what is not. If the mix makes a good dog with a steady predictable temperament, then great, but the issue I have is crossing labs/goldens with poodles DOESNT make a good temperament. Now I have met schnauzer/poodle, and airedale/poodle mixes that were AWESOME, heck, I even met an aussie/poodle that was awesome. But I have never met a lab/golden and poodle mix that was any good for anything (no mind).
> 
> The issue for me isnt the mixing of the breeds, its what COMES OUT of the mix.
> 
> So, since I have a "created" breed ... I guess I will have to wait until he passes away and I get fully into poodles to "officially" have an opinion about this, then?


Who are you to decide what a good mix is? If you don't want one or don't like them, then just... Don't get one. The fact that you want them to not exist at all because you don't like them is what people are disagreeing with you about. I don't like Shar Peis very much, but I want the people that DO like them to have them and love them. I can smile at one walking down the street, and I can say "What a sweet dog!" (And mean it) When somebody shows me a picture of one or introduces me to one. This attitude is really insane to me- if you don't think Doodles are smart, and that's something that is important to you, then just don't get one.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

What is a 'good' breed or mix and what is a 'bad' breed or mix?

What temperament people like is 100% subjective.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> What is a 'good' breed or mix and what is a 'bad' breed or mix?
> 
> It's 100% subjective.


Agreed. I'm not likely to ever get a doodle mix, they're just not my thing, but all of the ones I've met (and working as a dog bather for a groomer for 9 months years ago, I met a LOT of them) have been very sweet dogs, super high energy, but very sweet. The ones I've seen in my area have been all over the map when it comes to coat type, but their temperament has been quite consistent for the most part. I only wish there were more reputable breeders of them, and less hype and misinformation spread about the mix, but that can be said for many purebreds as well.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

The beautiful thing about dogs is that we don't all have to want the same thing! You can like big, slobbery, and calm. I can like small, yappy, and high energy. Someone can value low shedding and not care about grooming whereas another person just wants a wash and wear dog. 

Why is something not being your thing a good reason that it shouldn't exist?

Bottom line though: they do exist and there are people that want them. Imo best thing to do is point them to the better breeders of doodles (and those do exist!)

To me your argument is like me going to every 'I want a chihuahua' thread and going 'eww why would you get a chihuahua when you could have a papillon?'


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Like I said, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this, to prevent further fighting.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> The bottom line is the doodle DOESNT make a good mix, that is what this whole thing is about, not about "created" breeds or what is okay and what is not.


This is your opinion.... Not fact..... You repeatedly back yourself in a corner by attempting to argue your opinions as fact.....

And whatever experiences you have with specific Doodles is anecdotal.....


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I'll admit that I've been pretty biased against doodles. Mostly because I've never met one that hasn't been neurotic and hyper. However, after reading this thread and thinking more on it, I also have a very recent breed (1960s) AND Euriasiers were bred for companionship sooooo... I can see the point being made. I don't think that doodles shouldn't exist and if people want them, that's what they want! BUT I am against the really yucky, awful doodle breeders. Then again, I'm against awful yucky breeders of any breed.


----------



## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I have seen some good Doodles. At our Agility someone has a brown one, a black one and a white one. I have never asked what the other half is whether it is Lab or Golden, but they do really well in Agility and are nice natured dogs, not wild and unruly. When I got Bonnie, I was not really looking for a Doodle of any sort but when this "oops" litter turned up, out of a really well bred Golden from a bigger miniature poodle, it seemed like it would be just the right sized dog I was looking for and being a merle was just perfect. I have to clip my Shih Tzu x Maltese so having to clip her was no problem. She is very smart and so far, easy to train. She has lots of energy and her and Kris spend lots of time outside chasing each other and playing.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> I'll admit that I've been pretty biased against doodles. Mostly because I've never met one that hasn't been neurotic and hyper..



In fairness that describes most of the BCs I've met - not all, just most, and many of the small terriers like JRTs. ...I like them 

Maybe I should start looking for a doodle for my next dog. The ones I've met ARE hyper but they're also pretty solidly friendly which might just work in my favor. (No, probably I won't, but mostly because they're big for me.)


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> In fairness that describes most of the BCs I've met - not all, just most, and many of the small terriers like JRTs. ...I like them
> 
> Maybe I should start looking for a doodle for my next dog. The ones I've met ARE hyper but they're also pretty solidly friendly which might just work in my favor. (No, probably I won't, but mostly because they're big for me.)


Cockapoo! 

No seriously though, I really like the cockapoos I've met. They're also been around for a while and it's been a bit since I looked but I remember finding a decent number of breeders health testing.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Cockapoo!
> 
> No seriously though, I really like the cockapoos I've met. They're also been around for a while and it's been a bit since I looked but I remember finding a decent number of breeders health testing.


Yeah, I've never met a cockapoo I didn't like, either. The ones I've KNOWN well were fairly low energy which isn't my thing, but were also crazy sweet and stable dogs which. Priority right now for me


----------



## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

Most Doodles I've met have been wonderful. The only weird one I met was part Aussie. He was just very nervous/skittish but that might also have just been the environment.

In general, around here, they are happy-go-lucky dogs who are good family dogs.


----------



## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

Some of the Doodles are pretty teeny actually. There are quite a few in agility jumping 12 inches and one even jumping 8n in NADAC. There are definitely some in the 15-30 pound range!


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

LoMD13 said:


> Some of the Doodles are pretty teeny actually. There are quite a few in agility jumping 12 inches and one even jumping 8n in NADAC. There are definitely some in the 15-30 pound range!


I'm there.

Not even kidding.

I mean I'm there in 5 or so years, but there.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Actually, I just want a 'Lo.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

taquitos said:


> Most Doodles I've met have been wonderful. The only weird one I met was part Aussie. He was just very nervous/skittish but that might also have just been the environment.
> 
> In general, around here, they are happy-go-lucky dogs who are good family dogs.


What kind of lousy breeder vortex am I in that none of the doodle/poodle mixes I've met have had good temperaments?! Maybe I should just start a campaign to educate on good breeders. I guess maybe it has to do with the puppy mills in the middle of the state?


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Effisia said:


> What kind of lousy breeder vortex am I in that none of the doodle/poodle mixes I've met have had good temperaments?! Maybe I should just start a campaign to educate on good breeders. I guess maybe it has to do with the puppy mills in the middle of the state?


Apparently we are in the same vortex


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Apparently we are in the same vortex


It's almost as if... genetics and breeding choices are things that matter.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

The funny thing is, I don't know of any breeders I would consider responsible, and their main criteria for breeding seems to be whatever sells best. And a lot of them keep their breeding dogs in conditions I do not consider to be suitable. But the _dogs_ seem fine. I don't hear about any of their criteria for breeding and they don't seem to put a lot of thought into it, but the dogs turn out OK so there must be some kind of selection process at work, whether it's deliberate or not I don't know.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Truth? 

it is RARE for a BYB dog of a companion/small breed to be temperamentally unsound in ways that would matter to most pet homes. Why? Because if they are snappish, stupid fearful, etc, then they aren't going to be kept, much less bred. 

Working dogs things change, and absolutely mills make a negative difference because the people doing the breeding aren't around the dogs to judge and it doesn't matter, but Joe and Mary having litter after litter of (WHATEVER) house pet? Probably not going to have major temperamental flaws, and if they do it's not going to be related to living a happy pet life in an average home.

Usually.


----------



## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

There are a few crazy doodles around here but a lot more with nice temperaments. Most of them are much higher energy that I would like but that's my preference. The few I knew when I went to the dog park were great. The one I do nosework with is awesome. 

I can count on one hand the number of poodle mixes that have come in the rescue I used to volunteer with. They aren't that common in rescue that I've seen, if they end up in shelters they get adopted out very quickly.


----------



## parapluie (Oct 20, 2015)

I know a cockapoo and a goldendoodle very well and they are both really sweet, friendly, happy dogs who love everyone and all dogs I've seen them with. The cockapoo was a little nervous about certain things as a puppy (i.e., loud noises) but he really came into his own and is a much more confident dog now. I am not interested in getting one at this point but in the future, someday, if I came across a good breeder, I would definitely consider getting a poodle cross.


----------



## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> I have seen some good Doodles. At our Agility someone has a brown one, a black one and a white one. I have never asked what the other half is whether it is Lab or Golden, but they do really well in Agility and are nice natured dogs, not wild and unruly. When I got Bonnie, I was not really looking for a Doodle of any sort but when this "oops" litter turned up, out of a really well bred Golden from a bigger miniature poodle, it seemed like it would be just the right sized dog I was looking for and being a merle was just perfect. I have to clip my Shih Tzu x Maltese so having to clip her was no problem. She is very smart and so far, easy to train. She has lots of energy and her and Kris spend lots of time outside chasing each other and playing.


How did golden and poodle produce merle? I didn't't think merle color was present in either of those breeds. Curious.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

jersey_gray said:


> How did golden and poodle produce merle? I didn't't think merle color was present in either of those breeds. Curious.


 I believe her dog has some Aussie mixed in too. Like, 1/2 Golden, 1/2 Poodle/Aussie mix, but he wasn't half Aussie. Or something like that . You can find it in her past posts.


----------

