# Behavior w/guests not getting better...starting to not look foward to having guests



## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

My pit bull mix is close to a year and 3 mnths. I feel like I am doing everything possible to raise a well socialized stable dog. I excersise him daily walks flirt pole, do obedience training, take him to multiple classes a week right now comp ob and rally. He defiantly needs an outlet for his energy and as long as he gets it he really is a good sweet dog BUT the one problem we have still is visitors...ugh I feel like we do better than regress it's been very fustrating.

Basically the routine goes like this. If I know we are expecting company I make sure to get him good and tired. Then I have him on leash so he cant do any over excitement jumping...which he is better at if I got him tired. BUT if we get company unexpected he can be a real PIA. It does seem if I have him leashed the whole time he gets fustrated...but I can't risk him jumping and knocking over my guests some of which are kids. If he tries to jump I stand on the leash and then praise when all fours are on the ground. But it's like he doesn't want to leave company alone he can't just relax around them...he's very demanding of everyone's attention. Or he'll start messing with my other dog. I feel like I'm always putting him away after a short time because i can only give him so many kongs or bully sticks so that he's not bothering. 

I feel bad a lot because some of my company wants to give him attention but he's just so over the top sometimes it makes it very hard. I'm almost paranoid now and watch him like a hawk..I'm always afraid with his size and strength or just his rough play might cause an accident. I feel like I'm never going to be able to just relax and chill with company with him around. Am I over reacting? I work so hard with him but he's just not that gentle soul like other bully breeds I've met or at least not yet! He can't just sit there and enjoy petting...he'll try to lunge up at you ...unless you have a treat or he's tired...it's like he's like "what's in it for me?" Most bully breeds I've met looovve attention...not that mine doesn't but he just seems like when he gets it he's obnoxious about it or wants something in return and that in turn makes people hesitant around him which obviously not what I want. Some visits ate better than others and I'm trying I really am...sometimes I'm just like why can't he be sweet and gentle like so many other bully breeds whosee owners rave about how GREAT they are with kids and are so lovable and gentle... I feel guilty thinking it but I almost don't want to have people over a lot bc I'm worrying about my wild beast or having to put him up for a long time...for him to get better we need to work on it though right. It's not like he's a young puppy anymore which is why I really want to make a change in this now but I don't know anything else I can do...


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## MysticRealm (May 30, 2007)

Maybe try to start with him crated and waiting till he calms down before letting him out then have your guests completely ignore him. Maybe have them completely ignore him for as many visits as it takes for him to get 'bored' of visitors and just go lie down since they aren't fun anyways. Do that until you can have him out of the crate when people arrive. If he gets too excited anyway put him in the crate again till he calms down then let him out and try again. Once Calm then start allowing people to very calmly pet him. If he gets too excited have them start ignoring him. If he doesn't calm down again put him back in the crate till he does then try again. I don't have too much experience with this kind of thing (well my one dog can get very excited but he's 8.5 pounds so it's not A big deal haha) so this was just thoughts but others can maybe give you better ideas.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Have you ever done any sort of 'formal' work with him on settling? If not, that's where I'd start. Something along the lines of this:
http://www.traintoadopt.com/the-nothing-exercise

Then, once he understands the game & can quietly settle at your feet on leash when you're alone, you can start to expand it to include other people in the room. Maybe recruit a friend to help at first to play the part of an actual guest. The friend should completely ignore the dog for as long as it takes for him to get into 'settle mode' and then give him attention. It might be helpful to have him crated when the guest first arrives, then bring him out on leash, but you could try it both ways (crated or just on leash for arrival) and see what works better for him.


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## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Thanks for the replies! I've tried some similar excersises including relaxation protocol and sit on the dog and he's does settle but around company his brain just can't seem to relax...I'll keep working on it though and let all guests no to ignore him and turn there backs if he tries to jump...and also maybe just give him a little attention when he's calm so that he learns like mentioned that's guests are no big deal...I'll try for the time being also to have guests over when hes good and tired as he's much more pleasant to be around when he's worked...I also started having him wear an empty backpack on walks which helps to relax him...wondering if having him wear the pack when guests r here would help?

I guess the underlying issue with me really is that when I got my dog I envisioned this people loving dog but one that is also gentle and can be around all people and kids without the constant worry if he's going to get over stimulated and too rough...I also had goals of him being my therapy dog but he's not one to sit there for constant petting without again getting excitedm...or when he does its more of like 30 seconds and then he's good. So just kinda thinking of what my expectations where of my dog and wondering if all is still possible? He's still young but not that young at 1 and 3 months. So I guess my wonder is it still possible that I can have this sweet gentle tempered dog possible therapy dog or is that just not his personality from what I'm describing? Or can it just be he still is just in a very adolescent stage and his temper will calm/even out with age?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

A 15 month old dog is very immature. He's going to be the best dog ever when he's 5 years old and you will see the glimmerings of that dog by the time he's 2 years old. Some dogs are old souls and are practically perfect as soon as the brain is mature and some are perpetual puppies and take time to learn how best to show their love of people.

Do the actual matwork, RP training when people are over. He needs that to transfer the training. I forget to do this all the time. Had a handyman over and after 1/2 hour of unhappy crated Bucky remembered RP and got out the mat. Bucky settled down right away, he just wanted to know what to do. Last week my aunts were over and I forgot AGAIN. Perhaps I need to embroider it on a pillow or something!!!


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## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Now that I think of it I had him leashed to me sitting down but with no mat. He did get antsy after a while. Maybe if I had put the mat down he would have settled better. Hmm maybe I should get multiple mats and keep them in the rooms we stay in this way I can have him go to it when needed. I can wait till 2, 5 is a long time away lol! I guess the other thing is we really dont have company over a lot so when we do he's like omg people yay wth do I do with myself! He gets plenty of training with people in classes but they r all dog people so that helps...my company not so much


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I think you've already identified the roots of your problem:
-young and active dog
-guests are novel

I would either have the dog in a crate or tethered safely away from the guests for as long as he seems excited. I would also HEAVILY reward him for any calm behavior. By the time 5 or maybe 10 minutes pass, he may see this as a training exercise and not really care about the guests anymore. Great! If he's in calm training mode, he's not in guest mauling mode, right? If you do this every time guests come over, you will see a new default behavior of calmly and politely looking at you whenever guests come over, and that can eventually evolve into calm interactions with guests.

It takes a commitment to work on it in the time being though. And one of the most important things about getting rid of an unwanted behavior is not letting your dog practice it, thus the crates/tethers/gates to physically prevent him from reaching guests when he is excitable. In a pinch, if you want to entertain your guests without worrying about your dog, simply put him away somewhere safe and comfortable. I know that as dog owners we always want our dogs to be a part of social gatherings. But every now and then, treat yourself to some social time without having to worry about training


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## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Yes I usually have him behind a gate when company arrives...then after they've settled a few minutes I give him a chew like a bully stick or Kong that may take him 20 minutes to work on...in this stage he's pretty good about it as he will prance all around people all wiggly butt with his vhew...then once he's done his rounds hell settle and finish his chew...

It's usually after those 20 that he's finished he'll start his antics...I do have him on leash normally but it seems like having him leashed might be what's getting him worked up...BUT on the other hand if I have him just drag a leash and he goes to jump on someone he's practicing the behavior
..and like you mentioned Canyx I don't want it to become a practiced one...however contributory to what I've said what works for me is turning my back to him. So I could tell my guests to do this even though he might be practicing it until he learns he's not getting any attention. So maybe that's worth a try? In any case I think for the time being I'll have him out only an hour or so while he's being good and then put him away with a Kong in his crate for the rest of the time. Then maybe increase the amount of time slowly as he seems to behave better around guests...


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## Sficciolo (Apr 29, 2016)

lizzy25 said:


> Now that I think of it I had him leashed to me sitting down but with no mat. He did get antsy after a while. Maybe if I had put the mat down he would have settled better. Hmm maybe I should get multiple mats and keep them in the rooms we stay in this way I can have him go to it when needed. I can wait till 2, 5 is a long time away lol! I guess the other thing is we really dont have company over a lot so when we do he's like omg people yay wth do I do with myself! He gets plenty of training with people in classes but they r all dog people so that helps...my company not so much


I do something similar with Jago, who is six months and can get unruly with guests. I let him sit down and the guests pet him, but if we are seating on the couch he isn't allowed to stay around begging for everyone's attention. There are a little dog-couch and a mat for him in the same room, if he wants to stay with the guests he should stay there and he'll be pet, played with and get treats. 

This is the idea. At times, it works great - especially with people he has already met. Some others, it takes longer to take him to settle. What helps is showing him a treat, guiding him to the mat, let him settle and give him treat and praise. He seems to understand the mechanism, I think now it's all about managing the instinct to go and sniff everyone's shoes or jump on their laps. 
In case he's really impossible to manage, I get a hollow bone and I give it to him on the mat. The bone is like the most important thing on earth to him.


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

It's your dog to do what you want with, but I think something like a crate is a very indirect bandaid-over-bullet-wound thing to do. The problem is his excitement and selfishness. If you could teach something like a place command or conditioned relaxation, then that may help. If not, you may need to be a bit more firm. If it's enough of a problem, and you're willing, have a few friends who will understand what you want easily without problems. If he jumps on you(not sure if he does) start with yourself. Stick your knee up as he jumps. It may be some hard timing, but if you do it before he gets to you so that he jumps into your knee rather than you kneeing him in the chest, he'll realize that for whatever reason you stick your knee up when he jumps, rather than you doing it in a way that makes him think that you're sticking your knee up because he's jumping. After that, have anyone else who will be able to do it correctly come over as if it's some big gathering that he wants to be a part of, and have them do the same. He probably won't take a chance after with those who won't do that.

That is again, a last resort if the place command or relaxation don't work out.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> It's your dog to do what you want with, but I think something like a crate is a very indirect bandaid-over-bullet-wound thing to do. The problem is his excitement and selfishness. If you could teach something like a place command or conditioned relaxation, then that may help. If not, you may need to be a bit more firm. If it's enough of a problem, and you're willing, have a few friends who will understand what you want easily without problems. If he jumps on you(not sure if he does) start with yourself. Stick your knee up as he jumps. It may be some hard timing, but if you do it before he gets to you so that he jumps into your knee rather than you kneeing him in the chest, he'll realize that for whatever reason you stick your knee up when he jumps, rather than you doing it in a way that makes him think that you're sticking your knee up because he's jumping. After that, have anyone else who will be able to do it correctly come over as if it's some big gathering that he wants to be a part of, and have them do the same. He probably won't take a chance after with those who won't do that.
> 
> That is again, a last resort if the place command or relaxation don't work out.


No. Using your knee could cause damage to the ribcage and sternum. It also doesn't teach the dog what you want to him to do which is be calm around guests. It may temporarily resolve the jumping but I guarantee it'll start all over again a short time after. 

This thread is almost ten days old, no one has come back to update or ask questions. Obviously your bad advice wasn't needed as there seems to have been a resolution to the problem.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> It's your dog to do what you want with, but I think something like a crate is a very indirect bandaid-over-bullet-wound thing to do. The problem is his excitement and selfishness. If you could teach something like a place command or conditioned relaxation, then that may help. If not, you may need to be a bit more firm. If it's enough of a problem, and you're willing, have a few friends who will understand what you want easily without problems. If he jumps on you(not sure if he does) start with yourself. Stick your knee up as he jumps. It may be some hard timing, but if you do it before he gets to you so that he jumps into your knee rather than you kneeing him in the chest, he'll realize that for whatever reason you stick your knee up when he jumps, rather than you doing it in a way that makes him think that you're sticking your knee up because he's jumping. After that, have anyone else who will be able to do it correctly come over as if it's some big gathering that he wants to be a part of, and have them do the same. He probably won't take a chance after with those who won't do that.
> 
> That is again, a last resort if the place command or relaxation don't work out.


Please stop giving people advice that could be dangerous or harmful to their dogs on this forum. You do not own a dog. You have not trained any dogs. You have no place to be advising others on how to handle behavioral issues.


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

TSTrainer said:


> No. Using your knee could cause damage to the ribcage and sternum. It also doesn't teach the dog what you want to him to do which is be calm around guests. It may temporarily resolve the jumping but I guarantee it'll start all over again a short time after.
> 
> This thread is almost ten days old, no one has come back to update or ask questions. Obviously your bad advice wasn't needed as there seems to have been a resolution to the problem.


"Damage their sternum"?? What, do you think I'm talking about a football kick? The dog does not have glass bones, I promise you that wouldn't do anything. I don't need a vet to tell me that, that's just logic. I worded it very carefully to get the point across that it is the force of your dog jumping that causes him to hit the knee, not you hitting the dog with your knee. Please, calm down.. I'm not an idiot.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> "Damage their sternum"?? What, do you think I'm talking about a football kick? The dog does not have glass bones, I promise you that wouldn't do anything. I don't need a vet to tell me that, that's just logic. I worded it very carefully to get the point across that it is the force of your dog jumping that causes him to hit the knee, not you hitting the dog with your knee. Please, calm down.. I'm not an idiot.


There are more effective and humane methods to get the dog to stop jumping that don't involve driving your knee into their chest. Usually that stuff is done out of panic or anger and the force is much greater than we may believe. Stop giving bad advice, nobody here would recommend kneeing a dog in the chest and I've trained dozens of dogs to stop jumping without laying a finger on them. How many have you trained?

Also, why would you want the force of the dog jumping to cause them to hit the knee, that's a lot of force as well. Dogs are strong, and it could CERTAINLY hurt them.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

TSTrainer said:


> There are more effective and humane methods to get the dog to stop jumping that don't involve driving your knee into their chest. Usually that stuff is done out of panic or anger and the force is much greater than we may believe. Stop giving bad advice, nobody here would recommend kneeing a dog in the chest and I've trained dozens of dogs to stop jumping without laying a finger on them. How many have you trained?


Not only do I agree with all of this, but on the flip side, you have dogs that actually think getting a knee to the chest is playing and end up jumping MORE. This is all around a bad "method" to use.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Nobody isn't calm. 

We tried the knee thing with my Lab, didn't work. She ended up needing to be put in the bedroom when we had guests for most of her life. She liked to lick knees. . .not many people like their knees licked .


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

SlabGizor117 said:


> "Damage their sternum"?? What, do you think I'm talking about a football kick? The dog does not have glass bones, I promise you that wouldn't do anything. I don't need a vet to tell me that, that's just logic. I worded it very carefully to get the point across that it is the force of your dog jumping that causes him to hit the knee, not you hitting the dog with your knee. Please, calm down.. I'm not an idiot.


The dog could hit your knee with enough force to cause injury. You've never hurt yourself by hitting a stationary object? Pair discomfort and new people enough times and you have the potential to create more problems than you're trying to solve.

There are dozens of ways to teach polite greetings, numerous ways to manage behavior until new skills are learned, why would one choose to use discomfort?


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## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

Since I posted the thread I've been working heavily on mat/relaxation exercises...that and I save an extra special long lasting chew only for when guests are here...as well as exercising him before hand. It's getting better, if he becomes a PIA and doesn't let up, he goes behind the baby gate I have...he seems to be getting it - can't behave appropriately around guests = removal from guests. He's still very much a hyper dog with a big puppy brain but I'm confident with many more repetitions and age itself it will get easier. 

Yea not a fan of the knee thing, also the association with guests kneeing = discomfort to dog = dog receiving negative association with guests vs positive associations which is what I've been working so hard on! I will admit I'm a big advocate of positive training and I've used it almost exclusively with both my dogs and it's worked wonders. With my bully mix I will admit I did revert to using a water spray bottle for when his jumping/nipping was totally over the top - he's not a soft dog by any means and it was more of an attention grabber if anything to show him what I wanted, I would follow up with a sit, then reward.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> "Damage their sternum"?? What, do you think I'm talking about a football kick? The dog does not have glass bones, I promise you that wouldn't do anything. I don't need a vet to tell me that, that's just logic. I worded it very carefully to get the point across that it is the force of your dog jumping that causes him to hit the knee, not you hitting the dog with your knee. Please, calm down.. I'm not an idiot.


What happens when you try this with a 140 lb puppy, out of curiosity?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Hiraeth said:


> What happens when you try this with a 140 lb puppy, out of curiosity?


You make an orthopedist very happy??


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Or you whack your knee into the pup's knee and make 2 orthopedists happy!


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cookieface said:


> You make an orthopedist very happy??


Or a plastic surgeon. Titan liked to launch himself at my face, not my chest, for about a month and a half there


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## Wet Beards (Jan 25, 2015)

Hiraeth said:


> What happens when you try this with a 140 lb puppy, out of curiosity?


You end up flat on your butt. lol
No, the knee idea is not a good one.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

I think you should continue working on it as you have been, and eventually all your hard work will pay off and your dog will mature and settle down. It will take time, but when you start to see him actually being calm around guests you'll be glad you worked so hard at it.

I had the same problem with my dog Pepper when she was a puppy. We kept doing what we were doing and she eventually just "got it". I started noticing her being calmer in general at about 3 years old. Now she only tries to jump up if someone's really giving her loads of attention.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Oh yikes... please don't knee your dog in the chest!! Or rather.... don't sit there with your knee out so they launch themselves into your knee 

I prefer to use 1 of 3 methods, determined by how the dog responds to each. 

The first method, have your guests turn away, ask your dog to sit, reward for calm behavior - the reward being a chance to sniff and be petted by your guests. You may use a lure (treat or toy) to begin the behavior chain, but the goal is that the chance to greet the guests is reward enough. 

Another route would be to keep treats by the door, have your guest grab a couple treats and throw them away from them, and when the dog comes back after having eaten the treats, the guest treats the dog for remaining on the floor. 

Alternatively, you could use a mat. Start out by laying a mat on the floor - when dog sniffs the mat, click+treat, wait for the dog to look at the mat again, click+treat, etc until you have the dog standing on the mat with all 4 paws, then begin to add a down. Once they get to the point of laying down instantly on the mat when you lay it out, then you can add a stay, and begin to build duration by taking steps away from the dog and returning to reward and 'free'. Once they have it down pat, then introduce the mat in distractions. Etc etc until you can effectively send your dog to their mat when guests come over, thus preventing them from jumping on your guests. 

You can release the dog to greet guests, however if they jump - back on the mat.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

lizzy25 said:


> Since I posted the thread I've been working heavily on mat/relaxation exercises...that and I save an extra special long lasting chew only for when guests are here...as well as exercising him before hand. It's getting better, if he becomes a PIA and doesn't let up, he goes behind the baby gate I have...he seems to be getting it - can't behave appropriately around guests = removal from guests. He's still very much a hyper dog with a big puppy brain but I'm confident with many more repetitions and age itself it will get easier.
> 
> Yea not a fan of the knee thing, also the association with guests kneeing = discomfort to dog = dog receiving negative association with guests vs positive associations which is what I've been working so hard on! I will admit I'm a big advocate of positive training and I've used it almost exclusively with both my dogs and it's worked wonders. With my bully mix I will admit I did revert to using a water spray bottle for when his jumping/nipping was totally over the top - he's not a soft dog by any means and it was more of an attention grabber if anything to show him what I wanted, I would follow up with a sit, then reward.


That's great! With most aspects of dog training, patience, consistency, and often some maturity (from the dog) are keys to success.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SlabGizor117 said:


> It's your dog to do what you want with, but I think something like a crate is a very indirect bandaid-over-bullet-wound thing to do. The problem is his excitement and selfishness. If you could teach something like a place command or conditioned relaxation, then that may help. If not, you may need to be a bit more firm. If it's enough of a problem, and you're willing, have a few friends who will understand what you want easily without problems. If he jumps on you(not sure if he does) start with yourself. Stick your knee up as he jumps. It may be some hard timing, but if you do it before he gets to you so that he jumps into your knee rather than you kneeing him in the chest, he'll realize that for whatever reason you stick your knee up when he jumps, rather than you doing it in a way that makes him think that you're sticking your knee up because he's jumping. After that, have anyone else who will be able to do it correctly come over as if it's some big gathering that he wants to be a part of, and have them do the same. He probably won't take a chance after with those who won't do that.
> 
> That is again, a last resort if the place command or relaxation don't work out.


Stop!!!! Seriously..... Your advice is going to get someone hurt...... 

Having strangers stick their knee up when the dog jumps is terrible, terrible advice. 

1) It going to make the dog very unwelcoming of strangers..

2) it could hurt the dog.

3) Do it to the wrong dog (or right dog, whichever) and your guest gets hurt....


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## Bizalou (May 25, 2016)

Thank you for this thread! I missed it before I posted, but your pup sounds very much like my two. Mine are smaller 50# and 35# (and growing) but the two of them and the jumping is a tough thing to handle. I loved your description of your pup. Sounds exactly like my Lucy. She has ALL the friendly. Obviously I dont have any good advice - I'm in the same boat. But it is comforting to hear others are working through the same issues.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I know a trainer who likes compulsion training. He's actually a good trainer, his methods are just outdated. He will lift his leg to block a dog jumping up, but I've never seen him hit the dog in the chest with his knee. He's just *blocking* the dog so it doesn't get rewarded for jumping up, he doesn't hurt the dog or try to hurt the dog or let the dog hurt itself by hitting his knee. He uses the side of his leg more than his knee.

And this is a trainer who uses *outdated* methods.

Punishing jumping up will only hurt your relationship with your dog, because the next time your dog is excited to see you and wants to say hello, he will think twice about it. You may have stopped the jumping up, but you have also changed how your dog sees you and are creating a dog who is scared to be excited and happy around you. There is also other potential fallout like the dog not wanting to come when called, because normally the dog would run to you fast and be excited, but now the dog has learnt not to be excited around you and may not come at all, or if he does come, he will come slowly and show avoidance behaviours when he arrives.

Why choose that method over something that works to stop the jumping up, but also keeps the dog happy and excited?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

You say you're taking comp ob classes, maybe utilize the Stand For Exam (or sit for exam) as part of the greeting ritual.


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

TSTrainer said:


> There are more effective and humane methods to get the dog to stop jumping that don't involve driving your knee into their chest. Usually that stuff is done out of panic or anger and the force is much greater than we may believe. Stop giving bad advice, nobody here would recommend kneeing a dog in the chest and I've trained dozens of dogs to stop jumping without laying a finger on them. How many have you trained?
> 
> Also, why would you want the force of the dog jumping to cause them to hit the knee, that's a lot of force as well. Dogs are strong, and it could CERTAINLY hurt them.


Did you read what I said? Because if you're coming away with the thought of driving your knee in their chest, then you need to read it again.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Did you read the bottom of my post? Even if you stood stationary with your knee out, a large dog could easily hurt itself and you by jumping into it with the force of an exuberant dog. But you've never had a dog so you can't possibly know the potential force of an action like that.


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I know a trainer who likes compulsion training. He's actually a good trainer, his methods are just outdated. He will lift his leg to block a dog jumping up, but I've never seen him hit the dog in the chest with his knee. He's just *blocking* the dog so it doesn't get rewarded for jumping up, he doesn't hurt the dog or try to hurt the dog or let the dog hurt itself by hitting his knee. He uses the side of his leg more than his knee.
> 
> And this is a trainer who uses *outdated* methods.
> 
> ...


Because it doesn't... The dog is jumping on you, and regardless of alleged injury risk, you put your knee up every time they jump. First of all, by association, to say that the dog would associate the knee that happens every time they jump with something other than them jumping, is to call the dog stupid. Plus, if you also greet the dog happily and excitedly if he doesn't jump, or until he jumps, then I would think that isolates jumping well enou as an undesired behavior.


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## SlabGizor117 (Apr 21, 2016)

TSTrainer said:


> Did you read the bottom of my post? Even if you stood stationary with your knee out, a large dog could easily hurt itself and you by jumping into it with the force of an exuberant dog. But you've never had a dog so you can't possibly know the potential force of an action like that.


Wow, I must be so stupid and idiotic because circumstances that are out of my control don't allow me to have a dog. I can't tell you the exact force of that in Joules or pounds of pressure, but I do have the logic to know that he wouldn't break his ribs unless he was sprinting as fast as he possibly could into a concrete post. And it's also doubtful to me that he even would sprinting to someone with their knee up,mince they would give a lot more than the concrete would. But no dog would ever exert that much force jumping up on somebody. If a big dog who jumps on somebody forcefully doesn't bruise his feet when he lands, he's not gonna break his ribs on a stationary knee.

Everyone here bends over backwards so much to deride balanced training, this is pathetic.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> Everyone here bends over backwards so much to deride balanced training, this is pathetic.


No, many people here used balanced training methods. What you've described is not balanced training.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> No, many people here used balanced training methods. What you've described is not balanced training.


Yep.

I have used a prong and an e/shock collar. I have certainly used corrections for particular behaviors and circumstances in which I wish to create a negative association in the dog. The thing is those are RARE. I do not, for instance, want to create a negative association between the dog and guests and greeting people. Because that would be really, really, remarkably stupid. Between my dogs and snakes? Yes! 

And even outside all of that (which honest to god is common sense, here), Slab up there has yet to mention ANY kind of positive association building (tip: praise is neutral to most dogs - and the absence of pain is not actually a freaking positive) between owner, dog and behavior. 

Balanced: Uses corrections and rewards.

This: Uses corrections, aversives, abuse, and 'rewards' with the absence of pain. Not balanced, FFS.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Wow, I must be so stupid and idiotic because circumstances that are out of my control don't allow me to have a dog.


I'm going to tell you a story.

When I was first a member of this forum, I did not have a dog. In fact, I didn't get a dog until over a year after I joined.

During that time, I did not give other people advice on how to do things, outside of advice on things I had learned volunteering at a shelter.

Not knowing doesn't make you stupid, not knowing but still talking like you -do- know is stupid.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Wow, I must be so stupid and idiotic because circumstances that are out of my control don't allow me to have a dog. I can't tell you the exact force of that in Joules or pounds of pressure, but I do have the logic to know that he wouldn't break his ribs unless he was sprinting as fast as he possibly could into a concrete post. And it's also doubtful to me that he even would sprinting to someone with their knee up,mince they would give a lot more than the concrete would. * But no dog would ever exert that much force jumping up on somebody. If a big dog who jumps on somebody forcefully doesn't bruise his feet when he lands, he's not gonna break his ribs on a stationary knee.*
> 
> Everyone here bends over backwards so much to deride balanced training, this is pathetic.


You never answered my question. My 140 lb 10 month old puppy exerts quite a lot of force when he jumps. No way would I, or anyone else, be able to maintain their balance if all they did was stick their knee out when they saw him coming. So how does your solution work in that situation?

Reality check: We all own balanced dogs who are well trained, who respond to commands and who respect us as 'leaders' and more importantly view us as 'friends'. You don't have any of that. 

What you are doing right now is akin to you approaching someone with a Ferrari and trying to teach them how to drive a Ferrari because you read a book about it and you think you know more than they do. It is pointless, and silly, and potentially dangerous, and smacks of the ignorance of youth and inexperience. 

You have an entire internet forum (that is not particularly renowned for being united) sitting back, rolling their eyes at you and really wishing you'd just stop.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

> What you are doing right now is akin to you approaching someone with a Ferrari and trying to teach them how to drive a Ferrari because you read a book about it and you think you know more than they do. It is pointless, and silly, and potentially dangerous, and smacks of the ignorance of youth and inexperience.


I'd say this is worse because we're working with living, feeling beings, not inanimate machines.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also, do you understand physics? At all?

The force of a dog leaping onto a single point - a knee- with all their weight, versus dispersing that force and weight over two paws and a broader surface of a body (when jumping up against a person) is not the same. 

That's the reason a knife cuts, in spite of the fact that if you smacked someone with one it isn't heavy enough to do serious damage. Or why a chicken can sit on an egg, or you can squeeze it in your hand, but if you tap it lightly against the edge of a thing it breaks. 

You don't own a dog, but you're certainly old enough and have had enough science classes by now to get THAT without having it spelled out.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Add to that the dog's structure. A broad-chested dog like my roommates Keeshond may not seriously injure themselves on an extended knee, they would probably be bruised and knock me on the floor, but to do that to my deep-and-narrow-chested poodle is just asking for a trip to the e-vet.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

cookieface said:


> I'd say this is worse because we're working with living, feeling beings, not inanimate machines.


Well, yes. Though destroying a Ferrari would be rather devastating....


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> I'm going to tell you a story.
> 
> When I was first a member of this forum, I did not have a dog. In fact, I didn't get a dog until over a year after I joined.
> 
> ...


On the flip side, I joined without a dog but had been apprenticing for months, had a rapidly growing library of books and articles from many different trainers, and worked with many dogs of different sizes and ages, so when I had advice I felt qualified to give, I gave it and I also learned from the other posters here and continue to learn.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

There's also the issue that kneecaps aren't all that sturdy, nor are they held into place by much and people can and have dislocated or even shattered kneecaps following that foolish advice.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Wow, I must be so stupid and idiotic because circumstances that are out of my control don't allow me to have a dog. I can't tell you the exact force of that in Joules or pounds of pressure, but I do have the logic to know that he wouldn't break his ribs unless he was sprinting as fast as he possibly could into a concrete post. And it's also doubtful to me that he even would sprinting to someone with their knee up,mince they would give a lot more than the concrete would. But no dog would ever exert that much force jumping up on somebody. If a big dog who jumps on somebody forcefully doesn't bruise his feet when he lands, he's not gonna break his ribs on a stationary knee.
> 
> Everyone here bends over backwards so much to deride balanced training, this is pathetic.


You are not stupid or idiotic because you do not own a dog..


But the fact is you are giving bad advice repeatedly. You do not own a dog, do not know what you are talking about. Read and learn. 

Frankly, if someone was foolish enough take, will get both people and dogs hurt. You suggest some things that are truly dangerous to both people and dogs. You suggest things that have the potential to ruin dogs or take years to undo, injure both humans and dogs..... 

I am sure you mean well at heart... But STOP... Before you hurt someone... 

As for your knee not breaking the dogs ribs...... 1) A lot of other bad things aside from broken ribs. and 2) All you are doing is sticking your knee up. You have NO control over how much force the dog comes in with. So anything can happen, including broken ribs. 

And then there is the danger factor for humans..... Stick your knee in the wrong dog's chest and he is liable to rip your knee cap off for you. 

You suggest obtaining help from people that are strange to the dog to help with this... Really bad idea....

Having your friends stick their knee up to stop your dog from jumping up is NOT going to teach the dog to stop jumping..

The dog will learn some lessons..... And what the dog learns is dependent on temperament..

Soft dog... So Soft dog coming running up to jump on your buddy and your buddy throws up a knee. Bang... the dog learned something interesting..... Strangers HURT ME.... He will probably never jump on another stranger... After just a time or two with the knee routine. Not because he learned you do not want him to jump though... He just learned strangers are scary and want to hurt him. So now you have a dog that is fearful and ill at ease when strangers come over. That can manifest itself in avoidance, fear aggression, etc. And those things have a bad habit of building and becoming worse without any further incidents. You just turned your happy over excited dog that loved guests so much he could not resist jumping on them into a fearful bag of nerves. You have a dog bite (fear biting is the most common type of dog bite) waiting to happen. Every time you have guests over, your dog is going to be slinking around trying to avoid the guest... They get in a situation they cannot avoid... They are going to bite the guest.. Out of fear.... 


Hard dog.... The hard drivey dog is going to learn some quick lessons as well. Your buddy sticks his knee up.... Bang... The dog just learned... That strangers want to attack him. If you are lucky, you will not have to pick your friends knee cap up and put it in a ziplock bag for the ride to the hospital... So what did the hard dog learn? That strangers are aggressive.... He is not going to be afraid of the strangers because it is not in his nature to fear. He is going to see them as a threat... So with this dog, when you have guests over, he is not going to slink around... IF you can control him and he not go after then before they get a foot in the door, he is going to make his presence known. He will position himself and watch your guest like a hawk. Waiting for the wrong move. And this dog when he bites, is different than a hit and run drive by of a fear biter... This dog will bring it. Full on... He is not afraid of a fight. 

Lets look at what


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Wow, I must be so stupid and idiotic because circumstances that are out of my control don't allow me to have a dog. I can't tell you the exact force of that in Joules or pounds of pressure, but I do have the logic to know that he wouldn't break his ribs unless he was sprinting as fast as he possibly could into a concrete post. And it's also doubtful to me that he even would sprinting to someone with their knee up,mince they would give a lot more than the concrete would. But no dog would ever exert that much force jumping up on somebody. If a big dog who jumps on somebody forcefully doesn't bruise his feet when he lands, he's not gonna break his ribs on a stationary knee.
> 
> Everyone here bends over backwards so much to deride balanced training, this is pathetic.


Please, PLEASE for the love of DOGS, go apprentice for a real dog trainer or something. THEN come back and give advice. The advice you are giving now IS dangerous and ineffective. I stopped kneeing dogs (like my family told me to do) when I was a kid, back when I learned it didn't really work that great, and it hurt my knee and the dog. And once again, when every single person on a thread disagrees with you, when they don't even normally agree with each other, there just MIGHT be something to take away from that.
/facepalm x1,000. -.-


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Because it doesn't... The dog is jumping on you, and regardless of alleged injury risk, you put your knee up every time they jump. First of all, by association, to say that the dog would associate the knee that happens every time they jump with something other than them jumping, is to call the dog stupid. Plus, if you also greet the dog happily and excitedly if he doesn't jump, or until he jumps, then I would think that isolates jumping well enou as an undesired behavior.


It's a pretty well known phenomenon that dogs end up associating the punishment with something other than what the owner is trying to punish. This is the potential fallout of using punishment. The dog associates the punishment with more than just one behaviour, or with the wrong behaviour altogether, and becomes fearful or starts to avoid situations that the owner never intended.

This is pretty well known among dog trainers, which is why most trainers these days don't resort to punishment as a first resort. If you'd done some research or ever owned a dog, you'd know this.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Everyone here bends over backwards so much to deride balanced training, this is pathetic.


Well if we are talking pathetic.... 

Nothing in any suggestion you post is balanced... At best the methods you spout but have never tried puts the owner at odds with the dog.... Your methods (they are not really yours, you have not even tried them....) cause owner and dog to constantly push against each other....

And the reality is... The things you suggest are aggressive, violent and in some cases cruel...... 

You need to learn something about dogs before you go spouting advice....


And frankly when/if you do get a dog, depending on the dog, you actually pull some of the stunts you suggest, the dog is going to hurt you.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

a stationary knee ^^^

wax on / wax off 


Honestly, I don't think this entire notion is even possible.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

SlabGizor117 said:


> Everyone here bends over backwards so much to deride balanced training, this is pathetic.


You are an insult to the balanced trainers on this forum, JB being one of them. There are people who use prongs and e-collars here. NONE of them agree with you. People like you sicken me; you are the reason why my profession of R+ dog training exists. My clients have dogs damaged by methods YOU tout. Think I am lying? I have a steady paycheck that unfortunately proves my point. Do you realize that there are people who euthanize their dogs after the damage done by YOUR methods? You think this is a game. It is absolutely disgusting what you are doing here. And I think others have been very patient. You have been given good advice. There are professional trainers here, not even talking about myself, who have rehabilitated dogs from the brink of surrender or death. We are groomers, breeders, competitors, and pet owners with a cumulative centuries worth of experience... Will you listen to none of us? You are not kind, or humble, or educated in this topic at all. I am both terrified and cannot wait for you to dive into training. Terrified because you may get hurt and dogs certainly will get hurt. But I cannot wait because for how young you are, you have already made yourself a relic by your beliefs. Irrelevant and archaic. A rusty pot that holds no water and leaves a bad taste in your mouth. 
I have bad news for you. The real world can be Koehler-esque. Your head will be held underwater and you will be hung by your neck on chain. People are going to knee you in the chest and knock the wind out of you. You are going to be pushed into a corner where you have no choice but to lash out. Because violence begets violence. Ignorance commands no respect. Being part of a forum is a give and take experience. You are not taking in anything and are blinded by your gospel truth. You are poisoning thread after thread with harmful advice to people you don't even know and cannot judge the capabilities of. Your participation here speaks more about you than just your beliefs on dog training. You remind me of myself when I first started posting on forums: a child. But I don't want to insult children either because even the children whom I've worked with have been better equipped to learn. If you open your mind to what everyone here is trying to tell you, maybe you'll learn something about humility and maybe you will be a great person or a great trainer one day. But for now, this ENTIRE forum continues to patiently debunk your methods because we actually care about the strangers posting here looking for genuine advice.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Canyx said:


> You are an insult to the balanced trainers on this forum, JB being one of them. There are people who use prongs and e-collars here. NONE of them agree with you. People like you sicken me; you are the reason why my profession of R+ dog training exists. My clients have dogs damaged by methods YOU tout. Think I am lying? I have a steady paycheck that unfortunately proves my point. Do you realize that there are people who euthanize their dogs after the damage done by YOUR methods? You think this is a game. It is absolutely disgusting what you are doing here. And I think others have been very patient. You have been given good advice. There are professional trainers here, not even talking about myself, who have rehabilitated dogs from the brink of surrender or death. We are groomers, breeders, competitors, and pet owners with a cumulative centuries worth of experience... Will you listen to none of us? You are not kind, or humble, or educated in this topic at all. I am both terrified and cannot wait for you to dive into training. Terrified because you may get hurt and dogs certainly will get hurt. But I cannot wait because for how young you are, you have already made yourself a relic by your beliefs. Irrelevant and archaic. A rusty pot that holds no water and leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
> I have bad news for you. The real world can be Koehler-esque. Your head will be held underwater and you will be hung by your neck on chain. People are going to knee you in the chest and knock the wind out of you. You are going to be pushed into a corner where you have no choice but to lash out. Because violence begets violence. Ignorance commands no respect. Being part of a forum is a give and take experience. You are not taking in anything and are blinded by your gospel truth. You are poisoning thread after thread with harmful advice to people you don't even know and cannot judge the capabilities of. Your participation here speaks more about you than just your beliefs on dog training. You remind me of myself when I first started posting on forums: a child. But I don't want to insult children either because even the children whom I've worked with have been better equipped to learn. If you open your mind to what everyone here is trying to tell you, maybe you'll learn something about humility and maybe you will be a great person or a great trainer one day. But for now, this ENTIRE forum continues to patiently debunk your methods because we actually care about the strangers posting here looking for genuine advice.


/\/\/\ THIS!!!!
Thank you Canyx.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Canyx said:


> You are an insult to the balanced trainers on this forum, JB being one of them. There are people who use prongs and e-collars here. NONE of them agree with you. People like you sicken me; you are the reason why my profession of R+ dog training exists. My clients have dogs damaged by methods YOU tout. Think I am lying? I have a steady paycheck that unfortunately proves my point. Do you realize that there are people who euthanize their dogs after the damage done by YOUR methods? You think this is a game. It is absolutely disgusting what you are doing here. And I think others have been very patient. You have been given good advice. There are professional trainers here, not even talking about myself, who have rehabilitated dogs from the brink of surrender or death. We are groomers, breeders, competitors, and pet owners with a cumulative centuries worth of experience... Will you listen to none of us? You are not kind, or humble, or educated in this topic at all. I am both terrified and cannot wait for you to dive into training. Terrified because you may get hurt and dogs certainly will get hurt. But I cannot wait because for how young you are, you have already made yourself a relic by your beliefs. Irrelevant and archaic. A rusty pot that holds no water and leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
> I have bad news for you. The real world can be Koehler-esque. Your head will be held underwater and you will be hung by your neck on chain. People are going to knee you in the chest and knock the wind out of you. You are going to be pushed into a corner where you have no choice but to lash out. Because violence begets violence. Ignorance commands no respect. Being part of a forum is a give and take experience. You are not taking in anything and are blinded by your gospel truth. You are poisoning thread after thread with harmful advice to people you don't even know and cannot judge the capabilities of. Your participation here speaks more about you than just your beliefs on dog training. You remind me of myself when I first started posting on forums: a child. But I don't want to insult children either because even the children whom I've worked with have been better equipped to learn. If you open your mind to what everyone here is trying to tell you, maybe you'll learn something about humility and maybe you will be a great person or a great trainer one day. But for now, this ENTIRE forum continues to patiently debunk your methods because we actually care about the strangers posting here looking for genuine advice.


^^ Yes. Yes. Yes. SO MUCH YES. ^^ 

#Dropthemic


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

Canyx said:


> You are an insult to the balanced trainers on this forum, JB being one of them. There are people who use prongs and e-collars here. NONE of them agree with you. People like you sicken me; you are the reason why my profession of R+ dog training exists. My clients have dogs damaged by methods YOU tout. Think I am lying? I have a steady paycheck that unfortunately proves my point. Do you realize that there are people who euthanize their dogs after the damage done by YOUR methods? You think this is a game. It is absolutely disgusting what you are doing here. And I think others have been very patient. You have been given good advice. There are professional trainers here, not even talking about myself, who have rehabilitated dogs from the brink of surrender or death. We are groomers, breeders, competitors, and pet owners with a cumulative centuries worth of experience... Will you listen to none of us? You are not kind, or humble, or educated in this topic at all. I am both terrified and cannot wait for you to dive into training. Terrified because you may get hurt and dogs certainly will get hurt. But I cannot wait because for how young you are, you have already made yourself a relic by your beliefs. Irrelevant and archaic. A rusty pot that holds no water and leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
> I have bad news for you. The real world can be Koehler-esque. Your head will be held underwater and you will be hung by your neck on chain. People are going to knee you in the chest and knock the wind out of you. You are going to be pushed into a corner where you have no choice but to lash out. Because violence begets violence. Ignorance commands no respect. Being part of a forum is a give and take experience. You are not taking in anything and are blinded by your gospel truth. You are poisoning thread after thread with harmful advice to people you don't even know and cannot judge the capabilities of. Your participation here speaks more about you than just your beliefs on dog training. You remind me of myself when I first started posting on forums: a child. But I don't want to insult children either because even the children whom I've worked with have been better equipped to learn. If you open your mind to what everyone here is trying to tell you, maybe you'll learn something about humility and maybe you will be a great person or a great trainer one day. But for now, this ENTIRE forum continues to patiently debunk your methods because we actually care about the strangers posting here looking for genuine advice.


I'm thinking you should probably run for president. I'd vote for you over our other current choices


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## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

I see my thread has caused quite the attention lol. On a serious note I agree though...shame to have misguided information that some people not educated enough can use on their dog and escalate or cause more problems, can really be a huge disservice to those trying to get good advice. 

I was wondering what everyone thought on putting a dog's unwanted behavior on cue kinda like this video?

Putting a Dog's Unwanted Behavior on Stimulus Control (to get Rid of it)-Clicker trained Jumping

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c877MVeZkyE

I think I posted this as another topic forum once but can't find it and never actually found a video showing the process/steps so thought I'd mention it here as it relates to the topic. It's interesting to hear how different techniques work for different dogs and sometimes its just trial/error to see what works best for your dog so thought I'd put this out there and seeing what others thought of this technique?


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

lizzy25 said:


> I see my thread has caused quite the attention lol. On a serious note I agree though...shame to have misguided information that some people not educated enough can use on their dog and escalate or cause more problems, can really be a huge disservice to those trying to get good advice.
> 
> I was wondering what everyone thought on putting a dog's unwanted behavior on cue kinda like this video?
> 
> ...


I have tried putting unwanted behaviors on cue (speak, jump up) and it did not work. Sure, now he can do those things on cue, but it did not stop him doing it when I didn't want him to. It didn't make it worse, though, either. I would keep focused on teaching your dog to control himself, teach him an opposite cue, although my dog was usually too excited to listen to my cues, anyway. This is a skill that seems to depend on a combination of training and maturity, too, unfortunately!


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## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

wanted to add to what I wrote above was that my only concern with trying this concept was practicing an unwanted behavior as we all know practiced behaviors get rewarding to the dog. I noticed this down in her comment section which explains her method pretty well:

Stimulus control has 4 properties: 
1)The animal understands the cue and responds to the cue promptly every time it is given.

2)You don’t get the behavior in the absence of the cue.

3) You don’t see the behavior in response to some other cue.

4) You don’t get some other behavior in response to the cue.

Just found this interesting!


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

lizzy25 said:


> I see my thread has caused quite the attention lol. On a serious note I agree though...shame to have misguided information that some people not educated enough can use on their dog and escalate or cause more problems, can really be a huge disservice to those trying to get good advice.
> 
> I was wondering what everyone thought on putting a dog's unwanted behavior on cue kinda like this video?
> 
> ...


It's another approach to problem behaviors and gives them a "time and a place" sort of outlet for the behavior. It's not 100% guaranteed to nix a problem, but it can really be beneficial in helping curb the problem. Similar to how positive interruptors work, or teaching using a behavior that disallows the problem behavior to continue while the preferred behavior is done.... ie: dog can't jump if he's sitting.... or can't bark if he's sniffing...


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

That largely depends on how self reinforcing the behavior is. If the dog barks to alert, training a bark may work. If a dog barks because barking is fun, training a bark isn't going to help.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Lillith said:


> I have tried putting unwanted behaviors on cue (speak, jump up) and it did not work. Sure, now he can do those things on cue, but it did not stop him doing it when I didn't want him to. It didn't make it worse, though, either. I would keep focused on teaching your dog to control himself, teach him an opposite cue, although my dog was usually too excited to listen to my cues, anyway. This is a skill that seems to depend on a combination of training and maturity, too, unfortunately!


I think, like most methods, it depends on the dog. Putting the behaviour on cue worked beautifully with our Sheltie when I was growing up, and he only ever jumped up when invited after we taught him to do it on command. With my Pug, Kuma, however, that would never work, he's much too bouncy and excited for that, lol. However, with him, ignoring him as long as he was jumping and showering him with the attention he wanted the moment he had all four paws on the floor worked wonders. To the OP, it never hurts to try, it may work, it may not, but it won't do any harm to put the behaviour on command.


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## lizzy25 (Aug 11, 2015)

hmmm yea it's always good to hear different sides of an approach. I have been working on different tricks, shaping, etc. One of the things I did was have him "jump" not on me but onto something, whether it be a couch, chair, basket, basically I practice with different objects, click and treat while he jumps up onto and puts his two front paws on, then cue "off" and click and treat once he gets back down on the floor. Not sure if that helps or not but it might make the "off" cue more effective when his jump is not cued and unwanted?


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## Lillith (Feb 16, 2016)

lizzy25 said:


> hmmm yea it's always good to hear different sides of an approach. I have been working on different tricks, shaping, etc. One of the things I did was have him "jump" not on me but onto something, whether it be a couch, chair, basket, basically I practice with different objects, click and treat while he jumps up onto and puts his two front paws on, then cue "off" and click and treat once he gets back down on the floor. Not sure if that helps or not but it might make the "off" cue more effective when his jump is not cued and unwanted?


I have an "up" and "off" cue for Ralphie, but its for furniture. He doesn't know those can apply to humans, too! You could try doing that, but I would practice with jumping on a human so he knows that cue applies to getting "off" the human as well. My dog would not listen, anyway, because any attention is attention to him when he is greeting someone, lol.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

lizzy25 said:


> I see my thread has caused quite the attention lol. On a serious note I agree though...shame to have misguided information that some people not educated enough can use on their dog and escalate or cause more problems, can really be a huge disservice to those trying to get good advice.
> 
> I was wondering what everyone thought on putting a dog's unwanted behavior on cue kinda like this video?
> 
> ...


You've already gotten some great responses to your query, I'll add one more. The idea of putting an unwanted behavior on cue and having stimulus control is great in theory. I've found that in practice, it's not so easy. 

As Amaryllis and KumasMom said, lots depends on the dog and behavior. From my perspective, an equal amount depends on the trainer. I found it takes _lots_ of work and time to get a behavior reliably on stimulus control especially if it's a self-reinforcing behavior or occurs during times of excitement. I'm lazy, I simply don't want to invest that much effort into something if I can manage it (or live with it). I'd rather spend my dog training time focusing on fun things.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> As Amaryllis and KumasMom said, lots depends on the dog and behavior. From my perspective, an equal amount depends on the trainer. I found it takes lots of work and time to get a behavior reliably on stimulus control especially if it's a self-reinforcing behavior or occurs during times of excitement.


And sometimes, just an amazing dog and pure dumb luck on the part of the trainer, lol. Our family knew NOTHING about dog training, we made pretty much every mistake in the book, but Sandy was a brilliant dog and somehow compensated a LOT for our ineptness. With the jumping, we weren't even trying to train a replacement behaviour for the jumping, just figured he was doing it anyway, so hey, let's try to put it on cue, make a cute trick out of it, and oh hey, now he only jumps when we tell him to, cool! LOL


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Everybody is mentioning that it depends on the dog and on the trainer, there is another factor that (unless I missed it among the other discussion)is worth considering. This scenario involves guests. My girl is HORRIBLE with my parents when they come over because they reward her crawling on them and jumping on them by squealing, jumping around, petting her, etc. I hate it because they then turn around and complain that my dog needs to be trained. Other people, the ones that know to ignore her until she chills out, or have listened to my requests that they do so (yeah, tough with a 70lb dog that wants to crawl on you.....but doable, trust me!), she'll calm down after a bit and will take petting calmly for a few minutes until she gets overstimulated again, at which time I send her back to her mat......the thing is though, the key to what I'm dealing with is the guests! Not saying that they are the only factor, but they are one to keep in mind! Even if they keep staring at your dog (because they want to pet him of course!!!), that might make him get a bit hyped.....just something to consider.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Greater Swiss said:


> Everybody is mentioning that it depends on the dog and on the trainer, there is another factor that (unless I missed it among the other discussion)is worth considering. This scenario involves guests. My girl is HORRIBLE with my parents when they come over because they reward her crawling on them and jumping on them by squealing, jumping around, petting her, etc. I hate it because they then turn around and complain that my dog needs to be trained. Other people, the ones that know to ignore her until she chills out, or have listened to my requests that they do so (yeah, tough with a 70lb dog that wants to crawl on you.....but doable, trust me!), she'll calm down after a bit and will take petting calmly for a few minutes until she gets overstimulated again, at which time I send her back to her mat......the thing is though, the key to what I'm dealing with is the guests! Not saying that they are the only factor, but they are one to keep in mind! Even if they keep staring at your dog (because they want to pet him of course!!!), that might make him get a bit hyped.....just something to consider.


Yes, great point. I found jumping on guests, strangers on the street, etc, to be the HARDEST to train out, because they'd keep ENCOURAGING Kuma to jump, it can be extremely frustrating.


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