# Dog Training



## baldjerry (Dec 27, 2015)

I am new to this forum and have read a bunch of posts where people are having problems training their dogs. I am no expert at all in dog training at all, but had my first trainer many, many years ago and she stopped training dogs and had to find a new one. Their are some places I looked at and did not like at all by the tactics they use and found one that was very similar to my first one, but much, much better. Once again I am no expert by any means on dog training I just took dogs I had to good trainers and stayed consistent with the training and they all turned out great and got each one to the advanced level and then to off leash training. 

I know this will cause some controversy probably but I am a firm believer in the "Pinch Collar" for dog training. Both Trainers I had and have now said the main problems why people do not like them is they think they are inhumane, but the problem they said is people just buy them and use them 100% WRONG. The are suppose to be used with just a very fast quick jerk and not hard to hurt the dog. Just a fast gentle jerk. They both said and I agree with what they said that people just buy them and have no clue on how to use them. You NEVER pull the dog by it, NEVER drag the dog by it, or jerk very hard because the dog is not listening and they said that is the problem why people do not like them and think they are inhumane. I was told that when a dog has pups that they will nip at their neck to correct them when they are very young and that is exactly what you are doing with the pinch collar. Everyone wants to train their own dog and that is great as the first dog I ever had I thought I had her perfectly trained and had just a regular collar on her and she was amazing until I got her around other dogs and all that went out the window as she just wanted to do what she wanted to do and play with the other dogs. I do recommend that you find a place where you can take your dog with a good trainer where your dog can be around other dogs as they are distractions and they will learn that it is not play time that it is training time. Of course at the end of training it was always let the dogs all run around and play due to it being a huge room and indoors. 

Second I see a lot of people asking what length of a lead to use. Some are saying a short one and some are saying the retractable one which I was told are both wrong and you want to use a 6 foot one. If you use the short one, which I think they call a "street leash" or something like that the dog will just learn to stay by your side knowing it cannot get away from your side. Once you go to a longer one, say a 3 foot one they will think that they can go to that far. Using a retractable one they are just going to go off and do their own thing and think they can always go that far.

Third I see a lot of people asking what side should the dog be walking on and it should be on your left hand side I was told by both trainers.

Fourth I see a lot of people saying it is cold outside and/or I take my dog for a walk everyday for 30 minutes to an hour, but how much training are you doing during that walk? If you are just walking the dog that is all you are doing is walking the dog and that is all it was is just a walk. You should be training your dog during your walk. If it is to cold out to take your dog for a walk to train it do it inside your home. I was told a dog only needs 15 minutes of training a day and it must be everyday on a walk or in your home. 

Fifth I see should I use treats or toys on the walk. NO. You want to praise the dog when it does good as your dog wants to please you and needs to know who is in charge and learn they are not in charge. That is why I am a firm believer in training because you do not want your dog dragging you down the street and you want it to listen to you and both said it is like you and your dog are communicating with each other. I know that sounds weird as I thought it was too, but training and praise I was told makes a happier dog and makes you happy that your dog is listening to you. I have now a 110 pound Rottweiler that was very, very stubborn and the trainer said she was just way to smart which was a tough combination to train, but once trained she would be the best dog and can take her further with training then most dogs. I first did basic training with her and then did advanced with her. She was a TON of work and no matter what I tried with her being so stubborn I had to let them take her and train her for 2 weeks and had to send her back for a refresher course months later. The trainer I use told me about two places he said were just harsh with the dogs and he considered it basically abusing the dog to get it trained, where I will type below how he does it and it takes time and patience, but you have a dog that listens to you. 

You want your dog to make mistakes so you can give corrections and more corrections the better. Let your dog make mistakes and give corrections every time. I was told that if you got a dog and it listened to all your commands very fast your dog is really not trained and I know that sounds weird, as it sounded very weird to me. It did make sense to me that you want the dog to make mistakes and give correction after correction as the dog will learn from it and realize that if it breaks its command it is going to get a correction and that will be embedded in them that once that leash is on it is time to listen that play time is over. Of course you are going to play with your dog and have fun or take it to a dog park and let it play, but it should know once that leash is on their is no dragging you down the street or pulling away from you doing what it wants to do. Once you get all that accomplished the basic heal, sit, stay, down on the leash walking in figure eights with the dog right by your side, stopping and just walking the other way the dog stays right by your side, walking in circles and the dog stays right by your side, etc it is time for off leash training which is what I am starting with the current dog I have now. She knows when we are going for a walk she needs to sit before her collar and leash go on. She knows that she will sit there when I open the door and wait for me to tell her to heal before we step one foot out that door that all her attention is on me. When we are walking she gets the whole length of the 6 foot leash and stays right by my side all the time. When I stop she knows she has to sit and when we come to a street she has learned to automatically stop and sit. My very first dog I got that far and then trained her off leash knew that she had to stop at the street or a curb and when someone came home I would let her out the door and she would run to them and would automatically sit once she got to the curb where the car was parked. The reason I was told that was important is if your dog gets out you do not want it to run in the street and possibly get hit by a car. She also knew that when we went through the back door and came to the gate she had to sit and would not move until she was told to heal. Purpose of that I was told was say someone left the gate open and you let your dog out and forgot to check to make sure they were closed. Do you really want your dog to run out of your yard? NO. It did happen a lot where the person who would read the electric meter would not latch the gate all the way and it would get left open. I actually looked outside 2 times and seen her sitting by the gate that was open as she knew she could not go outside it without being told she could. Needless to say after the second time I put chains on the gate with the clips that screw so he would not leave the gate open. I asked him the first time and he told me he would always make sure the gate was closed when he read the meter. Yeah right, he forgot that real fast and did it a second time and that is when the chains went on. He had no clue what kind of dog I had, not knowing it was a 90 pound Rottweiler, but one day he learned real fast when we were training in the yard and he came and she ran to the gate barking at him. She was very well trained at that time on off leash, but I let her do her thing and run and bark at him and did he jump back fast. Of course I called her to come and she did instantly. Also, she was the sweetest, gentle, protective dog I have to say I ever had. Would she bite anyone just to bite them? No she never had that in her and she lived all the way up until 13 with no health problems and just passed one day while taking a nap. Did she protect me? Yes and proved it one time when two people were having "Road Rage" and one of them got out of the car once they finally got a red light yelling and hitting the other guy. Of course horns started beeping and then he came yelling and screaming at me and I heard this low pitched growl and once he came to my window which was half way down and went to hit me his body jumped back real fast when she lunged at him. Then with cross traffic coming he almost got hit by a car. With all that his adrenaline was lost real fast almost getting grabbed by her and almost getting hit by a car.

That is a story I had to share as I feel a dog that is well trained and worked with everyday its like you communicate with each other. She would even tell me when she wanted to go for a walk. I knew once she would go by where her leash hung and she would sit and bark once or twice she wanted her walk and she got it. 

I know some of this may sound weird, but I feel a dog that is well trained with commands and gets praise you and the dog are communicating with each other and it is not just having a dog and taking it on a walk it is a happier dog where they know their is work and their is play.

I hope this post helps some people out and people share their stories about training and problems they have where everyone on here can help each other out with training and any behavior problems they are having to help each other out. That is what this forum is about anyways right? Helping each other out because you may have had a problem with your dog and you figured it out and got it solved and you may post one and someone has the solution for you or multiple solutions can come up where one of them works for you. So lets help each other out and I hope this post keeps going where everyone is sharing and helping everyone on here with training and any behavior problems they are having with their dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I use almost nothing but treats and toys and rewards. 

I do use a prong collar on a very large dog because of nasty weather but I don't use it to correct the dog (and used it more in the past, but it's all management not training). I rarely use any correction harsher than telling the dog that what it did isn't going to earn them a treat. If I do it's because they are engaging in a behavior that could be dangerous to them or people and needs ended now. Mostly I prevent mistakes. 

I have 5 dogs who are housebroken, off leash reliable in nearly all circumstances, and competing in dog sports. Those 5 range from terriers and a livestock guardian mix (enormous one and stubborn) to a border collie and chi. Their temperaments range from very hard to very soft and fearful. 

I guess all I can really say is my training story is not a bit like yours but my outcome is pretty danged good. I have titles as objective evidence that at least one of my dogs will perform complex behaviors they were trained to do reliably, correctly, at speed in public and in chaotic environments (without treats or rewards on my person, yes, before you even assume that). They're all pretty freaking incredible and easy to live with and 4 of the 5 can go ANYWHERE and do anything. Admittedly the fifth is a neurotic/fearful wreck, but I promise you corrections wouldn't help her since she's often plastered to the ground shaking.

Anyway. 

As an aside I have no issue with corrections provided they're given to the right dog, at the right time, for the right reason but you'll never see me advise that stuff on line because given for the wrong reason, with bad timing, or to the wrong dog and you're going to have a mess. The real difference between us though is I'm not actually starting threads to offer unsolicited advice based on my conviction that I know what's right for every dog ever and people doing it differently are doing it wrong.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

Yeah I would never teach a client to use corrections on their dog. I know when and "how much" of a correction is appropriate for each dog, but people get carried away and misuse the information. and I CERTAINLY won't set any dog up to make a mistake just for the sake of correcting them. Average people know nothing about dog body language, there may be a reason why the dog is making a mistake. Maybe they are overwhelmed or tired or confused. I would not correct for something like that. 

I think instead of depending on trainers for all of your information, it is worth doing your own research in order to form your own opinions. There are lots of studies out there explaining the science behind training using praise and rewards instead of corrections. I'm not talking about just basing everything you learn off experience and trial and error. Dedicating time to read some books by renowned trainers, scientific studies available online about dog behavior, and going to seminars held by a variety of trainers. If someone disagrees with my training approach, I have a list of websites and resources for them to peruse on their own time if they care so much.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I kind of skimmed through your post, but this comment stuck out,


> You want your dog to make mistakes so you can give corrections and more corrections the better. Let your dog make mistakes and give corrections every time.


Repeating what CptJack and TSTrainer said, I would absolutely not encourage people to set their dogs up for failure so that they can give corrections. Far too much risk involved in that. 

My dogs are set up for success, reinforced heavily, and, if they make a mistake, the "correction" is "oops, try again." Then, I adjust my training plan to increase success and decrease mistakes. Although they don't have titles, they are well trained, behave nicely, and are easy to live with.

I'll just quote CptJack here,


> The real difference between us though is I'm not actually starting threads to offer unsolicited advice based on my conviction that I know what's right for every dog ever and people doing it differently are doing it wrong.


and TSTrainer here,


> I think instead of depending on trainers for all of your information, it is worth doing your own research in order to form your own opinions. There are lots of studies out there explaining the science behind training using praise and rewards instead of corrections. I'm not talking about just basing everything you learn off experience and trial and error. Dedicating time to read some books by renowned trainers, scientific studies available online about dog behavior, and going to seminars held by a variety of trainers.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

There are many ways to train a dog. If you use any of the methods well, on the right type of dog, you will get great results. All dogs are different. All handlers are different. All teams are different. So it follows that methods will be different.

Train a dozen dogs to a high level of proficiency and see if your perspective widens.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

If you're constantly setting your dogs up to fail so you can punish them, how do they ever learn to trust you? Any time you ask them to do something, they could think you're just doing it for an opportunity to punish.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

baldjerry said:


> I hope this post helps some people out and people share their stories about training and problems they have where everyone on here can help each other out with training and any behavior problems they are having to help each other out. That is what this forum is about anyways right? Helping each other out because you may have had a problem with your dog and you figured it out and got it solved and you may post one and someone has the solution for you or multiple solutions can come up where one of them works for you. So lets help each other out and I hope this post keeps going where everyone is sharing and helping everyone on here with training and any behavior problems they are having with their dog.


I admire your desire to try to help people and their dogs. That's why I've decided to suggest this book for you, as educational material. 

http://www.amazon.ca/The-Power-Positive-Dog-Training/dp/0470241845

Buy it, read it, understand it, embrace it, and faithfully apply it's principles. Chances are it will vastly improve your training, your dog's behavior, and your relationship with her. Hopefully then, you can spread the good word to others.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

Wow. Just -- wow. Seriously, I feel like I was just teleported back to 1980-something and I'm standing in a Basic Obedience class. Not a treat or toy in sight, prong collars on *every* dog. They make a mistake? Correct them & correct them *hard*. We can't have any insubordination here - Heaven knows that will lead those darn status-seeking dogs to take over the world.

Yup. That was the way I was taught back in the day. That was the way I used to train (may all my past dogs of the time forgive me for not knowing better) My current dogs & all the dogs at the shelter that I come in contact with every day are whole-heartedly grateful that I have learned better ways. I do not set dogs up to fail so I can correct them over & over & over. I help them understand what behaviors I want, I encourage them to try new things (something an over-corrected dog will never do for fear of being punished) I train with treats & toys & in the context of all fun and games. And somehow I end up with well trained dogs that follow "commands" and are happy. And we share a better bond because of it.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

baldjerry said:


> I am new to this forum and have read a bunch of posts where people are having problems training their dogs. I am no expert at all in dog training at all <snip>


This is where I pretty much stopped reading. Since you're new to the community, I'd recommend taking a step back and learning a bit more about the forum before making huge posts about dog training that contain overarching generalizations and misinformation. 

In fact, I'd recommend you take a step back and learn a bit more about dog training in general, from what you have said here. Good trainers know what works for them and their specific dog. Great trainers understand that different methods work for different dogs. Only novices make blanket statements like "prong collars are great" or "prong collars are terrible". They work for some dogs. They don't work for others. It's up to everyone to decide as an individual (hopefully with professional help) which tools and management solutions work for their particular dog.


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## baldjerry (Dec 27, 2015)

I should have phrased that different as I NEVER set the dog up to make mistakes or set her up for failure, if she breaks command she is doing it on her own. I do keep constant eye contact on her with one eye and do give her a verbal command first as I can see it coming what she is about to do to prevent her from breaking before a correction, so I apologize for typing it that way. We can be walking and when she is right by my side like she should be she gets constant praise for doing good, but if she strays off she gets told to heal and if she does not then she will get a correction. Since I have eye contact on her at all times I can usually tell what caused her to break command or why so I can work on that verbally ahead of time and focus on that to correct why she is breaking command and try to prevent her from doing it. If she does need a correction is never a harsh pull if she does not respond verbally first, just a little quick jerk. Also, say she is not in the right position I will re-position her or walk her back and we will do it all over again and if we have to walk back and do it again we will. Once she gets it right it is then she gets praise. I know my dog wants to please me and can be confused or just not understand what I want her to do, but when she does it right then it is always constant praise for her and I feel that with that once she gets her praise for doing it she knows what she did is what I wanted her to do. 

On walks I do know places where she does break commands so I avoid walking her that way and an example would be their is one house that has a dog that weighs I guess 40 pounds and if anyone walks their dog past that fence this dog will turn vicious, growling, snapping through the fence trying to bite any dog or person that walks by. This dog is unbelievable how it acts towards other dogs, people, kids walking by or riding their bikes past the fence and I know one day it is going to probably bite a child through the fence. How the owners allow this to happen and they will be outside and not stop their dog from doing this or correct it to stop it I do not understand. I do see people avoid walking their dog past this house with the fence and cross the street not to deal with this dog. I have even stopped and talked with a couple people walking their dogs and they even say to me you avoiding that dog too. Their should almost be signs "do not walk your dog past this fence" it is that bad. 

I did not just take her to a place that is your average dog training facility where it is always just walk your dogs this way, tell your dog to sit, tell your dog down, etc. It is a facility that does dog training and they work with dogs that have behavior problems too and they even have taken in dogs from no kill shelters to rehabilitate them so the shelter can get them adopted out to someone. I remember many years back when I knew nothing about training a dog I know I cannot say the name but it is a well known pet store and all it was was feel your dog, get your dog use to you touching it, giving advice on veterinarian care, grooming, and I know that is important, but after a few weeks I wondered with this being 8 weeks when do we start training, since it was called a training class and it should have been more clear what kind of training it was for. I am sure it is good for the first time a person ever got a dog that does not know these things, but I grew up around dogs since a child and already knew all these things from childhood. Not knocking them, but it was for the person that got their very first dog and knew nothing about owning a dog and this class should have been spelled out what it was all about. 

During training where I was taking her now they are not just going through the motions they are training the people too explaining what the person is doing wrong or getting into telling you why the dog is doing it. I even learned that I was giving commands a little to fast and was told that I needed to slow down to give her time to process what she was told. It has even come up during training that they will tell the person it is not the dog it is how they are doing it and training the person. They do teach the science of why dogs do things and during training and they may stop and work with that person only while everyone watches and listens to why the dog did what it did and give the why. Often their are times before we start the trainer will say things about a dog they had in for training and explain what it was doing and give the why it was doing it, and explain what they do to correct that problem the dog has. It has even been brought up during training classes when dogs are doing certain things they have even asked people did you take your dog to a different facility and they name it as somehow they pick up on things the dog is doing. I feel they are a very good place to take your dog and they do not rave that they are the best, but they did tell me two places to never take your dog for any training because they train in a harsh way. With the different classes they have they will even tell people of different facilities like them that are good because they have certain classes on certain nights and what they have going on may not fit the person schedule and they do change classes around from time to time on different days and what the person wants they may not be available that night to go there. 

I myself like I said am no expert and I know from comments above I did not type things out the right way and should have thought about it more or phrased it better. I am not looking for my dog to win awards or get special certifications, I am just looking to be able to walk her and not have her pull me down the street like I see other people when they walk their dog, the dog is in charge. I just want her to walk by my side and give her commands and have her do them. She is doing really well, but does need to mature more and lose some of her curiosity and focus more on me when we are training. When we are in the back yard is when we are having fun just like when I take her to a dog park it is for her to run and play with other dogs. 

Before I got this Rottweiler my last one went way past her life expectancy and lived just over 13 years and had no health issues and one day while sleeping during the day passed in her sleep. I know that their are tons of different views on how to train a dog just like all kinds of things in life that everyone thinks that their way is the best, but no dog is the same dog and some dogs will learn faster than others and some will have different training problem areas than others. I do know that I put a lot of work into my first Rottweiler and she was phenomenal and I know I cannot compare the one I have now to her or expect her to be like her. I just want her to be trained and she is doing great so far and just needs to mature some more and calm down.

The reason I started this post was not to say that this is the way things should be done it was to start it to tell what I have learned for people to explain what they have learned and things I am doing now and other people too, someone may have a better way that works for the person to give it a try. It was just something I wanted to start for everyone to share their ways they have trained their dog. Like I said in the beginning I am no expert and I do not set my dog up to make mistakes or set her up for failure to give her corrections. I just shared what I was told that a dog that gets a lot of corrections will learn from it and that is their philosophy on how they train, just like another facility or person can have theirs. I am not saying it is right or wrong I am just going by what I learned and some may disagree and some may agree, but praise is for sure what a dog wants as they want to please you and you want your dog trained as I see way to many people when they are walking their dog the dog is in charge pulling on the person and sometimes so hard you can hear the dog huffing and puffing trying to go faster and the owner cannot keep up. The dog should be walking by the owners side not pulling so hard practically dragging the person walking it.

I just want to say I know everyone has their views on everything in life just like what is the best dog food to feed your dog with the hundreds of different dog foods on the market and just like this everyone will have their ways and methods and I hope that I clarified things I should have explained a different way or added things and hoping that this reply explains things I should have thought of before I typed it. That everyone can share their training methods and any problems that they are having and things that they have done that worked for them because their could be a lot of first time dog owners out there that are not exactly sure what to do and not get them confused and keep this as a very good discussion helping everyone. 

I myself am hoping that someone post something for me to try different with her that may work better. I have read some post on here where people have gone back and forth with a person and different people and I hope I did not start one of those where everyone is saying their way is the right way and knocking a person for what they are trying or other post I have read where a person has some problem with their dog and gets so many different conflicting replies.

The whole purpose of this was for me to try to get something started where everyone gets along and if someone is doing something to give them ideas and suggestions and not knock one person for their reply and people going back and forth with each other and make this a good post being nice to everyone and just share their experiences and what worked for them and if someone is having an issue for someone to help the person out. I hope I typed this out where I clarified things that I should have done when I started this post and hope I do not regret giving this a try because its whole purpose was for everyone to help each other.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

The more corrections the better. Oh, ok.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Someone once, in passing, suggested I just correct the SNOT out of Molly for reacting at other dogs/weird stuff that scared her. I entertained the notion briefly, then a plastic bag blew by and she both reacted and peed herself in terror. 

I'm somehow thinking popping her with a prong isn't the answer.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I'm currently in a dog trainer program (starting to train professionally) and the program I'm in uses NO pain/aversives. The punishment comes from the -P side of the spectrum - time outs, no reward marks, etc. So I'm probably one of the more extreme opposites of you on the forum. There are plenty of folks here who use prongs and e-collars and such, so this isn't just some "pro-cookie-pusher" forum or whatever, though I am a proud cookie-pusher. 

The biggest issue I have with this is encouraging complete strangers on the internet to use these aversive collars/techniques/etc. Because these things, if not used exactly right with perfect timing, can have serious backlash. And how in the world can you know if someone you talk to on a forum is going to use it right? There is such a danger for misuse and serious problems and pain to the dog that I just find it irresponsible to encourage random users to just go on out and use these things.

Also, as for the "they should want to please you" bunk, is that what you do at your job? Work just to please your boss? Dogs need (and deserve!) a paycheck for their work, just like people do.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> Also, as for the "they should want to please you" bunk, is that what you do at your job? Work just to please your boss? Dogs need (and deserve!) a paycheck for their work, just like people do.


I don't tend to really think of rewards I use as a 'paycheck' for my dog so much as a means of communication with the dog (YES! That's RIGHT! I liked that!!!) and a means of building enthusiasm and value in the behavior. Then again I guess a paycheck could be seen as a job well done signal, too. 

It's a schematics thing, but for some reason that mental shift actually helped me in proper application of rewards and timing with them - and using them more effectively. 

/random derail.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I don't tend to really think of rewards I use as a 'paycheck' for my dog so much as a means of communication with the dog (YES! That's RIGHT! I liked that!!!) and a means of building enthusiasm and value in the behavior. Then again I guess a paycheck could be seen as a job well done signal, too.
> 
> It's a schematics thing, but for some reason that mental shift actually helped me in proper application of rewards and timing with them - and using them more effectively.
> 
> /random derail.


Oh, no. I absolutely agree with you. I think it's all of that, though. I mean, the behaviors we ask dogs to do are expensive for them. Especially things like recall. Rewards are paychecks, communication of a job well done, a slot-machine kind of deal (once you're on a variable rate schedule), a way to build enthusiasm... But I just think "he should do it because he wants to please me" is a very backwards and domineering way to interact with dogs. Why should he want to please you? There's just so much ego in talking about dog-human relationships like that.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

So, hypothetically. What would you do of the dog wasn't interested in pleasing you?
Frankly, some dogs don't give two hoots about making a human happy, they just want to do what works for them and gets them something good. What if praise isn't that something good for a specific dog? What if the dog doesn't care about kind words and soft tones or doesn't like to be touched?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> There's just so much ego in talking about dog-human relationships like that.


Agreed, and it's the ego that gets to me, personally. "MY DOG WILL X, Y, Z OR ELSE" ...Great relationship you've got going there. Also there's nothing, nothing, appealing about someone who's ego is so fragile they consider a dog a threat to their... authority? 

It's dangerous to the dog and as a human being that kind of ego just grosses me out and sends up all kinds of nasty red flags. That's not how you interact with ANY other living thing.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Agreed, and it's the ego that gets to me, personally. "MY DOG WILL X, Y, Z OR ELSE" ...Great relationship you've got going there. Also there's nothing, nothing, appealing about someone who's ego is so fragile they consider a dog a threat to their... authority?
> 
> It's dangerous to the dog and as a human being that kind of ego just grosses me out and sends up all kinds of nasty red flags. That's not how you interact with ANY other living thing.


+ 1000000!

I can't agree with a trainer that says "the more corrections the better". Maybe they were only trying to emphasize consistency, which, yeah, is super important. You don't get any desired results without consistency. Even if someone is abusive, if they're consistently abusive they probably will get their desired results. But just think about if you were being trained to do a new job. Yes, you want to be told the right way to do your job. But if the person training you is constantly correcting you---"don't do that, don't touch that, don't stand like that", etc., depending on your personality, you'd either get really angry or really discouraged. And dog aren't humans but I don't think they like being constantly corrected either.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

KodiBarracuda said:


> So, hypothetically. What would you do of the dog wasn't interested in pleasing you?
> Frankly, some dogs don't give two hoots about making a human happy, they just want to do what works for them and gets them something good. What if praise isn't that something good for a specific dog? What if the dog doesn't care about kind words and soft tones or doesn't like to be touched?


I would _love _to see someone get my dog to anything for praise. Of course, what's really working for OP isn't praise, it's the dog's avoidance of punishment. That's not really the same thing.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes, you said you're no expert; that is obvious. Neither am I but I will take the advice of the trainers here who are closer to experts than I'll ever be.


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## TSTrainer (Aug 6, 2015)

I definitely use the paycheck analogy to clients who aren't crazy about the amount of treats I use. Tends to soften people up to it. Dogs and humans aren't that different in the sense of WANTING to do something and HAVING to. I'm more likely to do what someone asks because I want to, and if I'm in the presence of someone who can cause me serious harm I may do what they say because it's in my best interest. There a very big difference, and I'd like to stay on the side of my dog responding because she wants to and likes me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Not going to respond to the OP because I think that's been covered, but I did want to chime in on the paycheck analogy. Some of the online trainers I follow have started to drop treats and toys from their training when they reach a certain level. Certainly not the learning phases, but once a dog understands the work, the dog can then choose to work or not work and there are no treats available, only personal play/interaction. It seems more experimental at this phase but it's kind of cool to watch. The goal is that instead of tricking the dog into thinking you have cookies in the ring, or teaching them that there are cookies outside the ring, you are telling the dog that you don't have cookies, but you do have yourself and your relationship, and then allow the dog to choose to opt in or not. 

Obviously this isn't something you're going to try with a new dog who has no relationship with you, or probably even a pet who isn't going to be the obedience ring. But I find it fascinating. Basically moving from the paycheck model to "will you play this game with me because you enjoy our interaction and relationship?"


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

> I am no expert at all in dog training at all,


No... No you are not.... Yet you are attempting of give advice as if you are an expert..... Bad advice at that...

You should probably write a book.... You are about half way there between your two posts...... 

I am going to call up Animal Planet and tell them they should give you a show.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> Not going to respond to the OP because I think that's been covered, but I did want to chime in on the paycheck analogy. Some of the online trainers I follow have started to drop treats and toys from their training when they reach a certain level. Certainly not the learning phases, but once a dog understands the work, the dog can then choose to work or not work and there are no treats available, only personal play/interaction. It seems more experimental at this phase but it's kind of cool to watch. The goal is that instead of tricking the dog into thinking you have cookies in the ring, or teaching them that there are cookies outside the ring, you are telling the dog that you don't have cookies, but you do have yourself and your relationship, and then allow the dog to choose to opt in or not.
> 
> Obviously this isn't something you're going to try with a new dog who has no relationship with you, or probably even a pet who isn't going to be the obedience ring. But I find it fascinating. Basically moving from the paycheck model to "will you play this game with me because you enjoy our interaction and relationship?"


Interested in links for this? I did see Denise's latest post about heeling with Brito. But yeah... definitely link me up! Having this issue with Hank.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Interested in links for this? I did see Denise's latest post about heeling with Brito. But yeah... definitely link me up! Having this issue with Hank.


Denise and Laura Waudby are the two I can think of who have posted the most on it. I can't find Denise's specific posts right now, and I can't remember if she posted them to her blog or just to FB. I think it's primarily something she's trying with Lyra.

Here is Laura's first post about it. You can find others if you search "Vito experiment" on her blog. 
http://laurawaudby.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-experiment-begins.html

I've only seen people use it for obedience though. I think Denise said it's because in obedience you have a lot of time between exercises where you only have your interaction with the dog to fall back on. In agility you have one long continuous engagement and then leave the ring, so it's not as important. You can teach the dog that cookies are outside the ring and that's enough. I know Laura Waudby is only using it for obedience behaviors with Vito and not agility.

It's really interesting to watch though! At first the dogs do seem to think "well this is stupid. no cookies? I'm gonna go sniff over here" But eventually they come around and realize the yard is kinda boring, and playing with the owner is fun even without cookies or toys. I imagine that the initial stress is more about the dog thinking no cookies = they are wrong, and figuring out that's not the case.

Another thing you might be interested in is Julie Daniel's cookie jar games class. It isn't about working for no cookies, but it is a systematic way to get cookies off of your person and eventually outside the ring. The first class was very basic and I think she's coming out with a part 2. I think you could easily buy the lectures for part 1 and catch up quickly to part 2 if you were interested.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

If only believing things made them work...

That's why I stick to training techniques that have scientific evidence to support their effectiveness. But to each their own.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

While I dont use a prong now, I have in the past, and would again if I felt I needed it, nor do I judge anyone else for using whatever they use, they know their dog, I dont, they might have a reason for using it that I dont know. I will admit I DO judge someone who doesnt bother to or spend the time to train their dog, I know its rude, but I can't help it.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

As a dog trainer - I train with the use of positive reinforcement, and I train clients dogs in more or less the same way. 
I do not recommend aversive techniques, as I see training as a way to build a strong bond between handler and companion. Personally, I feel this is better accomplished when you communicate what you want to see from your dog, rather than what you don't want. I feel that waiting for your dog to make mistakes so that you can give corrections is only telling the dog what you dislike and results in dogs who seem shut down and depressive because they feel as though they are walking on eggshells. 

I agree that things like choke collars, prong collars, and other aversive tools are often misused. They are designed to be training tools and not for everyday use. The goal with their use, is to be able to stop using them. I don't see how one would accomplish this without teaching the dog what _is_ expected instead of what they're doing wrong? This is something I feel positive reinforcement training greatly accomplishes. 

I currently own a Boston terrier/English bulldog mix, I've trained him myself from 11 weeks old onward and we've achieved many of the goals I've set out for us.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

You contradict yourself.. That if they have not been corrected for it because they never do it, they haven't learned anything followed by "I never set her up for failure" ...eh? So which is it? I know trainers who absolutly set dogs up for failure..a friend of mine was in a class and ahecwas told to encourage her dog to pull so she could correct him for pulling..the dog is 5 and has never pulled a day in his life. Why on earth would she encourage a behavior her dog does not engage in, only to correct him for it? Why not just reinforce his natural tendencies? Or a method I learned for teaching dogs not to jump up.. Encourage them to jump up, then pop them hard on the head when they do..then coax them up again..then pop them on the head for it. Thats just unfair training. 

My youngest, Sola, as a puppy she never chased or nipped or tried to be rough with humans, its just..not her personality. Does that mean she does not know to not engage in that behaviour? Well, probably not but..so? Actually ATM I am deliberately teaching her TOO be rough and play bitey with me..she thinks its stupid and engages only because I reward her for it, she is like a slot machine, riugh house with me for 20 seconds, then immediately stop and sit there staring at me, refusing to continue without payment..1 treat then she will turn herself back on rough housing with me. So what possible reason could there be to get her to rough house with me..for the purpose of correcting her so that she learns not to when she doesn't need to learn not too lol. Thats like saying that I can't possibly know drunk driving is bad unless I have done it and gotten a DUI despite my having no inclination to drink or drive in the first place. 

I have never corrected my dogs at doors and gates and such.. Yet my dogs don't barge through and don't leave the yard if the gate is left open. Why? Cuz they don't want too.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Not going to respond to the OP because I think that's been covered, but I did want to chime in on the paycheck analogy. Some of the online trainers I follow have started to drop treats and toys from their training when they reach a certain level. Certainly not the learning phases, but once a dog understands the work, the dog can then choose to work or not work and there are no treats available, only personal play/interaction. It seems more experimental at this phase but it's kind of cool to watch. The goal is that instead of tricking the dog into thinking you have cookies in the ring, or teaching them that there are cookies outside the ring, you are telling the dog that you don't have cookies, but you do have yourself and your relationship, and then allow the dog to choose to opt in or not.
> 
> Obviously this isn't something you're going to try with a new dog who has no relationship with you, or probably even a pet who isn't going to be the obedience ring. But I find it fascinating. Basically moving from the paycheck model to "will you play this game with me because you enjoy our interaction and relationship?"


*Elrohwen *not meaning to use your post directly for content.. just for a base line of direction concerning the paycheck word........ coming in way late not reading all the previous post... Best dogs are dogs who self reward on job, task, performance.... what ever you want to call their activity.... Dogs that work for end reward and not the task are not reliable and they never as good as performance dogs... end reward dogs hit and miss and fake cheat..... Seen it in the military dogs who false sit or rush through problems missing aids.... they never focused fully on task.... if that helps to understand where I am coming for.. Seen it in the show ring and OB ring... Not in the mood for working..... where dogs who love their jobs excell in any conditions all the time....


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> *Elrohwen *not meaning to use your post directly for content.. just for a base line of direction concerning the paycheck word........ coming in way late not reading all the previous post... Best dogs are dogs who self reward on job, task, performance.... what ever you want to call their activity.... Dogs that work for end reward and not the task are not reliable and they never as good as performance dogs... end reward dogs hit and miss and fake cheat..... Seen it in the military dogs who false sit or rush through problems missing aids.... they never focused fully on task.... if that helps to understand where I am coming for.. Seen it in the show ring and OB ring... Not in the mood for working..... where dogs who love their jobs excell in any conditions all the time....


Yeah, but most dogs _aren't_ performance dogs. Just like most humans aren't CEOs, Olympians, etc.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> Yeah, but most dogs _aren't_ performance dogs. Just like most humans aren't CEOs, Olympians, etc.


but the individual dogs that love doing (don't know that they aren't) we impower the dogs that we have or we crush them...


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> but the individual dogs that love doing (don't know that they aren't) we impower the dogs that we have or we crush them...


I meant more that most dogs don't find their "jobs" self-rewarding. Even top agility and show dogs still get rewarded (with treats/toys) at the end of their performance.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> but the individual dogs that love doing (don't know that they aren't) we impower the dogs that we have or we crush them...


;-) Yeah, but that doesn't mean the dogs who don't self-reward on a task are 'bad' or there's an issue. Getting most dogs to self-reward with behavior that we look for as basic, good, solid, housepets would be awfully hard. 

Because the behaviors that make for good pets are not things that are self-rewarding for the dog (and things that ARE self-rewarding are usually not things we want happening in the home). We trade off with food, toys, or play.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> *Elrohwen *not meaning to use your post directly for content.. just for a base line of direction concerning the paycheck word........ coming in way late not reading all the previous post... Best dogs are dogs who self reward on job, task, performance.... what ever you want to call their activity.... Dogs that work for end reward and not the task are not reliable and they never as good as performance dogs... end reward dogs hit and miss and fake cheat..... Seen it in the military dogs who false sit or rush through problems missing aids.... they never focused fully on task.... if that helps to understand where I am coming for.. Seen it in the show ring and OB ring... Not in the mood for working..... where dogs who love their jobs excell in any conditions all the time....


I agree. And I think this training is an attempt to show the dog that they do like working for the sake of working. Or at least for the sake of interacting with their handler. These aren't necessarily dogs who love work either, in fact the trainers are doing this with them because they are tough dogs with lots of environmental issues. But they have put in hours and hours of building that relationship and the dog's attitude towards work, so hopefully the dog eventually actively chooses to engage even knowing that cookies won't appear. It's not something I'm going to do with Watson any time soon, but I'm enjoying watching their experiments. I think it may be the direction more +R obedience trainers start to go, because if you take compulsion off the table, all you have left is the dog's choice (and honestly in the ring, it's the dog's choice anyway because the leash is off).



gingerkid said:


> Yeah, but most dogs _aren't_ performance dogs. Just like most humans aren't CEOs, Olympians, etc.


Yes, and I did say that these are for dogs training in competitive obedience. These are dogs who have already been trained through the highest level exercises to some proficiency, but struggle to work without reinforcement or because of environmental issues. It's not something that pet owners are going to try, or even people starting out in a sport. But it's a very interesting experiment into getting the dog to make that choice to work once you've taken compulsion off the table, and especially when that dog isn't one who always naturally chooses work no matter what.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> Even top agility and show dogs still get rewarded (with treats/toys) at the end of their performance.


Eh, I've seen even mid-level dogs who really love running agility spit out treats and refuse to play with toys. Even Kylie at this stage of the game is no longer running for cookies or play. She's running because she loves it. Do I still reward her? Yes. But the reward has transferred to the game itself. 

And lately she'd rather crawl in my lap and kiss my face than eat her chicken at the end of a lot of runs. It's. Complicated.

Because it's TRANSFER of reward value onto an activity, not necessarily the activity being inherently rewarding for her.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Eh, I've seen even mid-level dogs who really love running agility spit out treats and refuse to play. Even Kylie at this stage of the game is no longer running for cookies or play. She's running because she loves it. Do I still reward her? Yes. But the reward has transferred to the game itself.
> 
> And lately she'd rather crawl in my lap and kiss my face than eat her chicken at the end of a lot of runs. It's. Complicated.


Agreed.

I think that the more relationship you build, the more fun the dog has every time they train and work with you, the less important the cookies become. The cookies mark the correct behavior, and provide a little motivation, but they aren't *why* the dog is doing it at a fundamental level. Of course at the early stages it's more about the food or the toy, but we don't live in a skinner box, and our positive fun relationship with the dog absolutely has an impact. If I can't threaten my dog into working with me anymore, I'd better make sure he really enjoys it.

And for a dog to succeed in the higher level of obedience they have to know that there are no cookies in the ring and they have to be ok with that. You can trick them at first, but they'll figure it out. And you can have treats waiting at the exit and teach them that. But if you can have a dog who is happy to work with you in the ring because of that bond and relationship you've built, and the mutual love of doing something together, then things are easy. 

There's no way my dogs only do sports with me because they get cookies. Was that the original reason? Sure. Is that still sometimes the reason depending on what we're doing? Yeah. But I don't want to be their employer, dragging them along in order to get a paycheck. I want to be partners who understand each other and work together because we enjoy it. Does that mean I'm throwing away my cookies and expecting them to do everything for praise? Heck no! But I think that the mental shift away from employer/employee to team is important even if you're still at the stage where you're handing out cookies every 2 steps of heeling.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I think that the more relationship you build, the more fun the dog has every time they train and work with you, the less important the cookies become. The cookies mark the correct behavior, and provide a little motivation, but they aren't *why* the dog is doing it at a fundamental level. Of course at the early stages it's more about the food or the toy, but we don't live in a skinner box, and our positive fun relationship with the dog absolutely has an impact.
> 
> And for a dog to succeed in the higher level of obedience they have to know that there are no cookies in the ring and they have to be ok with that. You can trick them at first, but they'll figure it out. And you can have treats waiting at the exit and teach them that. But if you can have a dog who is happy to work with you in the ring because of that bond and relationship you've built, and the mutual love of doing something together, then things are easy.


You managed to nail what I was fumbling around and not saying - or maybe even really understanding. 

Relationship. Relationship matters. I know it's different for every dog and wouldnt' claim otherwise but with Kylie and Molly, even, I can see the progression in retrospect. It went from humoring me to get a treat, to finding the game sort of fun, to understanding that I was a big part of the game and just really, really wanting to play the game *with* me. More obvious with Kylie because she got further and has fewer issues, but. 

It's a beautiful, beautiful, thing. 

I have no intention of taking away Kylie's treats after a run basically ever, but. The difference is there, and it's honestly NOT subtle.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> You managed to nail what I was fumbling around and not saying - or maybe even really understanding.
> 
> Relationship. Relationship matters. I know it's different for every dog and wouldnt' claim otherwise but with Kylie and Molly, even, I can see the progression in retrospect. It went from humoring me to get a treat, to finding the game sort of fun, to understanding that I was a big part of the game and just really, really wanting to play the game *with* me. More obvious with Kylie because she got further and has fewer issues, but.
> 
> ...


I feel like that is the real spirit behind FDSA. Every dog is different, and it's going to be easier or harder to build a relationship with that dog. But the relationship is really the ultimate goal no matter what sport you're doing. Relationship is the answer to people who say "You can't train to OTCH level without corrections". Standard +R and clicker training does run out of steam at some point with many dogs when you get into tough real life situations, or stressful trial situations, and in those situations you can either go back to punishment, or you can work on your relationship. And building that relationship with some dogs is the hardest thing, but worth it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Also? My trainer's comment on my FB post and picture this morning about the dogs sticking to me like glue as a side-effect of agility? Not wrong. Not wrong at all.

ETA:


elrohwen said:


> I feel like that is the real spirit behind FDSA. Every dog is different, and it's going to be easier or harder to build a relationship with that dog. But the relationship is really the ultimate goal no matter what sport you're doing. Relationship is the answer to people who say "You can't train to OTCH level without corrections". Standard +R and clicker training does run out of steam at some point with many dogs when you get into tough real life situations, or stressful trial situations, and in those situations you can either go back to punishment, or you can work on your relationship. And building that relationship with some dogs is the hardest thing, but worth it.


Agreed, and I feel like that's something I'm only coming to realize lately. I've understood handing out treats and rewards for desired behavior for a long time but really building relationships with my dogs - and I mean WORKING relationships with them - last couple of years maybe and still something I'm developing. It's not working for praise, it's not treating the dog like an equal, but the partnership there is just something else. Being able to crawl into the dog's head and understand THEM, feeling like the dog can read your mind, it just. It's a rush. And it's beautiful.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> Denise and Laura Waudby are the two I can think of who have posted the most on it. I can't find Denise's specific posts right now, and I can't remember if she posted them to her blog or just to FB. I think it's primarily something she's trying with Lyra.
> 
> Here is Laura's first post about it. You can find others if you search "Vito experiment" on her blog.
> http://laurawaudby.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-experiment-begins.html
> ...


I need to buy the cookie jar class so bad. I'll have to look into seeing if it's available still...


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

CptJack said:


> ;-) Yeah, but that doesn't mean the dogs who don't self-reward on a task are 'bad' or there's an issue. Getting most dogs to self-reward with behavior that we look for as basic, good, solid, housepets would be awfully hard.
> 
> Because the behaviors that make for good pets are not things that are self-rewarding for the dog (and things that ARE self-rewarding are usually not things we want happening in the home). We trade off with food, toys, or play.


this can't be a new concept.... I never carry treats on me,,, they have to follow me back to the house and into the kitchen for me to open the fridge and look for something to give them .. Even working with Arkas klepto RG I never had it on me.. he had to take it and bring it back in the house with him following me.... so we could do the trade up... Self rewarding things in the house are good things for us... being helpers with me is simple self rewarding "right" am I totally not on the same page ..


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> this can't be a new concept.... I never carry treats on me,,, they have to follow me back to the house and into the kitchen for me to open the fridge and look for something to give them .. Even working with Arkas klepto RG I never had it on me.. he had to take it and bring it back in the house with him following me.... so we could do the trade up... Self rewarding things in the house are good things for us... being helpers with me is simple self rewarding "right" am I totally not on the same page ..


Getting something out of the fridge is not self-rewarding, though. If the dog fished its own treat out of the trash, it would be self-rewarding, but if the treat is coming from YOU , it's you rewarding the dog. That's all. Behaviors like baring are self-rewarding or, for some dogs, running. Chasing prey. The second you control the treat and access to it (or reward) it's not self-rewarding. There being a delay while the treat isn't on your person before you deliver it doesn't mean it's not coming from you.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Getting something out of the fridge is not self-rewarding, though. If the dog fished its own treat out of the trash, it would be self-rewarding, but if the treat is coming from YOU , it's you rewarding the dog. That's all. Behaviors like baring are self-rewarding or, for some dogs, running. Chasing prey. The second you control the treat and access to it (or reward) it's not self-rewarding. There being a delay while the treat isn't on your person before you deliver it doesn't mean it's not coming from you.


totally agree on your descriptions. going for a car ride is self rewarding, working a scent trail to find source is self rewarding, beaming, flashy in the show ring is self rewarding. going for a walk is self rewarding being with you and doing task as a helper is self rewarding.. right... with no food or toy rewards on hand.. 

having them come in the house after the fact of anything would be in the same line as only treating out of the ring and that the dog wouldn't miss it if the treat never came at all..


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> totally agree on your descriptions. going for a car ride is self rewarding, working a scent trail to find source is self rewarding, beaming, flashy in the show ring is self rewarding. going for a walk is self rewarding being with you and doing task as a helper is self rewarding.. right... with no food or toy rewards on hand..
> 
> having them come in the house after the fact of anything would be in the same line as only treating out of the ring and that the dog wouldn't miss it if the treat never came at all..


I'm honestly not sure? 

Having them come in the house is still YOU rewarding, but that doesn't mean that the helping out/activity isn't self-rewarding on its own. Sort of like giving a dog a treat out of the ring but the dog knowing that it's going to happen COULD be a big danged deal for some dogs, hence the discussion about taking that away entirely and making the 'reward' for the activity getting to play with the person. No external reward at all, other than the person (ie: no toys, no food) even on delay. Just person and dog and activity.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Thanks... am slow to catch on. to see the full picture... I'm cheap so NO my dogs never expect a food reward or toy.. sometimes I just happens to have something in the fridge or there is a toy laying around if it happens. but most of the time NOT... cause I'm cheap and out of practice using them... No one want to see me handle equipment (multi task) that is why full off leash for any animal is what I train for.. lol lol


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

baldjerry said:


> I should have phrased that different as I NEVER set the dog up to make mistakes or set her up for failure, if she breaks command she is doing it on her own. I do keep constant eye contact on her with one eye and do give her a verbal command first as I can see it coming what she is about to do to prevent her from breaking before a correction, so I apologize for typing it that way. We can be walking and when she is right by my side like she should be she gets constant praise for doing good, but if she strays off she gets told to heal and if she does not then she will get a correction. Since I have eye contact on her at all times I can usually tell what caused her to break command or why so I can work on that verbally ahead of time and focus on that to correct why she is breaking command and try to prevent her from doing it. If she does need a correction is never a harsh pull if she does not respond verbally first, just a little quick jerk. Also, say she is not in the right position I will re-position her or walk her back and we will do it all over again and if we have to walk back and do it again we will. Once she gets it right it is then she gets praise. I know my dog wants to please me and can be confused or just not understand what I want her to do, but when she does it right then it is always constant praise for her and I feel that with that once she gets her praise for doing it she knows what she did is what I wanted her to do.


A dog who is trained only with corrections and praise will of course enjoy praise, because praise means she didn't get a correction. This doesn't mean the dog is motivated by praise or wants to please, it means she is motivated to avoid a correction.

Personally I'm not a fan of making dogs scared of what people might do to them. 

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but this is just sad. And "the more corrections the better". Wow. Just wow.

ETA: Looks like the thread has moved on. I will have to read it later because it looks like an interesting read


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

My discussion with Elrohwen makes me wonder if I can suddenly train Thud because I have a relationship with him now, or if I have a relationship because I can train him. Chickens and eggs, maybe, but I'm pondering a lot. This was a GOOD discussion.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

CptJack said:


> My discussion with Elrohwen makes me wonder if I can suddenly train Thud because I have a relationship with him now, or if I have a relationship because I can train him. Chickens and eggs, maybe, but I'm pondering a lot. This was a GOOD discussion.


  you don't know until you try and see.... I have always felt trainers make excellent instructors/mentors for owners,, owners make the best trainers


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> you don't know until you try and see.... I have always felt trainers make excellent instructors/mentors for owners,, owners make the best trainers


I don't even know how to try it out ;-) But we've come looooong way over the past year.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

I sort of skimmed, but dang the posts just sound kind of miserable for everyone involved. If I was into micromanaging all walks that way... Where is the fun and the joy in owning a dog? Having to keep one eye on dog at all times and having to use a special collar on every time I went out of the house and not being able to reward with toys or treats? It just sounds so miserable for me the person haha. I love being able to reward my dog with... Whatever I want to.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

if I had my way everyone (in a safe place of course) would let go of the leash "they not steering wheels" let go and see what they can do together..... there is higher joy to me that the animals want to participate and even add to what we doing..... getting toys and food shouldn't be the connection to you, or work..... I love ordering a box of toys and helping the dogs open it lol... but just because we can not because we need too... I watch people meet dogs (my vets) and start shoving treats at them like this is the only way for my dogs to like them, to make a connection with them ?????? I feel sad that people think that way... and then people get their feelings hurt because my guys don't want their treats ... and they at a lost what to do when my guys wont take their treats... will have to go back and fully read all the post to see where everyone is at... but there is something very touching and grateful for me that an animal just wants doing it with you...


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

My dog "just" hang out and hike and housetrain for free. But I don't know how to teach Utility without some sort of reward system. PatriciafromCO: how do you teach complex behaviors?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Did anyone see the the video on FB of the group of Goldens bringing in the groceries? that would be it... at some point and time just for fun their owner might of said.. what,,, you want to help, for a dog showing happy curiosity about the groceries in the van... And the owner handed the dog a bag that was light and "unbreakable that they couldn't harm" and said take it to the house.. Maybe the dog made it and maybe not... and that was the start of several dogs rushing out to be handed a bag and running happily back to the house to put it down and go back for more.. I just engage them, include them, enjoy their responses, they so curious about things.  Everyone of my guys are so happy to bring back package to the house from the main gate and put it on the futon before I get back to the house.. The first time wasn't pretty for any of them... it was take it and run off to the backyard to chew on it, rip the box open (Adele ).. lol lol but they couldn't harm anything no panic or worries over it.. What they did was so close it was perfect for a start...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> My dog "just" hang out and hike and housetrain for free. But I don't know how to teach Utility without some sort of reward system. PatriciafromCO: how do you teach complex behaviors?


Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. 

I was the one who posted about dogs doing obedience for no treats or toys, but it took thousands of rewards until the dogs understand the exercises and what was expected of them. It's not like these trainers sat down with a green dog and expected the dog to just want to work for free.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have a hard time imagining teaching complicated behaviors without either communicating 'yes' or 'no' to the dog, which is really what it comes down to for me. Rewards communicate yes. Corrections (even mild ones - and let me tell you I can raise my eyebrows at Molly and have it work ergo that's a correction) communicate no. Whatever you are using to communicate those things are rewards or corrections, inherently. At least - I think.

Thud will work for praise and petting now, instead of roughhousing and biting, but that's *still the dog working for reward*, isn't it? Also danged uncommon, as in he is the first dog in my LIFE who would work for just being told he's good and an ear rub. 

Not that I can't imagine dogs eventually being willing to work for nothing but the joy of doing something they find fun, and if you are 'teaching' what amounts to largely instinctive and rewarding behavior for the dog (varies by dog) okay, but teaching something unnatural and not naturally rewarding to the dog then I have a hard time seeing how you can NOT break out something to make those behaviors rewarding. 

...and to communicate "YES! THAT THING! DO IT MORE!" 

I could train a beagle to hunt without using food rewards but that's just not the same as teaching a beagle to heel. The dog finds one of those two things inherently fun, you know?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> My discussion with Elrohwen makes me wonder if I can suddenly train Thud because I have a relationship with him now, or if I have a relationship because I can train him. Chickens and eggs, maybe, but I'm pondering a lot. This was a GOOD discussion.


Whether Watson works or not is very dependent on his emotional state and the quality of our relationship in that moment. He is not high enough drive to push through bad feelings, and he doesn't like to work enough to make it worth while. If he's feeling unsure, or doesn't trust me, he's not going to do it. 

I don't even think Hazel cares that we have a relationship. lol She just wants to do stuff, and she knows that I'm fun and provide a chance to work. I also think she likes to be right, mostly for the sake of being right and figuring things out. She's very simple that way.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Whether Watson works or not is very dependent on his emotional state and the quality of our relationship in that moment. He is not high enough drive to push through bad feelings, and he doesn't like to work enough to make it worth while. If he's feeling unsure, or doesn't trust me, he's not going to do it.
> 
> I don't even think Hazel cares that we have a relationship. lol She just wants to do stuff, and she knows that I'm fun and provide a chance to work. I also think she likes to be right, mostly for the sake of being right and figuring things out. She's very simple that way.


Thud's kind of opposite of Watson, I think. He IS high drive - in truth, probably the highest, hardest, most confident dog I own. The thing is - he has to like me and have a relationship with me to CARE, or so it seems. When he does - and we seem to have that now - he's willing to work for just about nothing. When we're off/he's not into me because I'm not taking care of our relationship that dog would not care if I set him on fire or waved steak under his nose. He's so, so willing to tell me to go screw myself  Well, historically, it's been a while since he's done it but it was a major thing.

From the time he was probably 6 months old to 2 and some change, I don't think I successfully taught that dog ANYTHING. And all of the sudden this past 6 months or so I can again - easily. It's wild - and like I suddenly have a DOG again.

(Kylie is like Watson. She doesn't trust you, she won't work for you. Molly is similar to Hazel. She'll work for anyone who is providing a good time. She will not, however, in the absence of a relationship and trust handle things in the environment. I can get her through things that even my husband can't. So it's a mixed bag over here.)


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think you could teach Summer agility without treats or toys (not weaves though). But it'll go a lot easier with rewards and she'll probably enjoy it more.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Now you won't get very far without a relationship, sure. This is my current stumbling block. Hank works for the ball, not for me. Well at least he did at one point. It's getting better with some work.

EDIT: I do think I needed that ball at the beginning of things to get the drive and speed I wanted out of him at the very least.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Thud's kind of opposite of Watson, I think. He IS high drive - in truth, probably the highest, hardest, most confident dog I own. The thing is - he has to like me and have a relationship with me to CARE, or so it seems. When he does - and we seem to have that now - he's willing to work for just about nothing. When we're off/he's not into me because I'm not taking care of our relationship that dog would not care if I set him on fire or waved steak under his nose. He's so, so willing to tell me to go screw myself  Well, historically, it's been a while since he's done it but it was a major thing.


I haven't met Thud of course and you know him best, but I don't know that I'd call him high drive if he's not willing to work unless he has a relationship with a trainer. Maybe high drive for doing things that aren't related to you (like hunting is for Watson), but if you can wave steak in his face and he can say "screw you" I wouldn't call him high drive. I think of high drive as a dog who is willing to do anything to get whatever is valuable to him.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Now you won't get very far without a relationship, sure. This is my current stumbling block. Hank works for the ball, not for me. Well at least he did at one point. It's getting better with some work.
> 
> EDIT: I do think I needed that ball at the beginning of things to get the drive and speed I wanted out of him at the very least.


Have you done Bridging the Gap? I haven't, but I feel like that might also answer a lot of your questions about weaning off of the ball.

As far as Cookie Jar goes, I don't think you can still buy the lectures, but if she comes out with a Part 2 they should have the Part 1 lectures available then. It's actually a really simple concept, and we just barely started applying it at the end of the first class. But I think once you get the concept it's not hard to imagine how you would use it. She did have other aspects to the class (like mat work) that I still didn't understand exactly what the final behavior was supposed to be. It seemed like we were still very much in foundations work.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> I haven't met Thud of course and you know him best, but I don't know that I'd call him high drive if he's not willing to work unless he has a relationship with a trainer. Maybe high drive for doing things that aren't related to you (like hunting is for Watson), but if you can wave steak in his face and he can say "screw you" I wouldn't call him high drive. I think of high drive as a dog who is willing to do anything to get whatever is valuable to him.


Yes. That is precisely what I mean. He's high drive, but he's high PREY drive and high PLAY drive, but he's not high TOY drive or food drive. What he has drive for has nothing to do with me, unless it's wrestling with me, or biting me. Drive's just desire and what Thud desires and desires intensely has jack all to do with me. 

It's honestly no different than Molly except I can hold the ball in my hand and make her work for IT. I can't hold a deer, and I'm not interested in being mauled on a regular basis. 

Drive is something lots of people use as 'willingness to work for a thing that the owner/handler has access to wants'. I... can't make myself use it like that.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Yes. That is precisely what I mean. He's high drive, but he's high PREY drive and high PLAY drive, but he's not high TOY drive or food drive. What he has drive for has nothing to do with me, unless it's wrestling with me, or biting me. Drive's just desire and what Thud desires and desires intensely has jack all to do with me.
> 
> It's honestly no different than Molly except I can hold the ball in my hand and make her work for IT. I can't hold a deer, and I'm not interested in being mauled on a regular basis.
> 
> Drive is something lots of people use as 'willingness to work for a thing that the owner/handler has access to wants'. I... can't make myself use it like that.


Ah, yeah, that makes it hard. Watson's only high drive is for hunting, which is only useful in nosework. I remember reading a Fenzi article about different drives and when she got to hunt drive she was basically like "this one is not very useful in training" Doh. 

I do see a lot of people use "high drive" as a synonym for "handler focus and drive for food or toys specifically". But I agree with you, there's more to it than that, and drives that are not useful to the handler but definitely exist. 

I'm doing a 2 day seminar with Denise in April and day 1 is drives and motivation, while day 2 is handlers choice private 1 on 1. I'm pretty sure I'm going to take Hazel on the first day and Watson on the second. I'm really excited!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> Have you done Bridging the Gap? I haven't, but I feel like that might also answer a lot of your questions about weaning off of the ball.
> 
> As far as Cookie Jar goes, I don't think you can still buy the lectures, but if she comes out with a Part 2 they should have the Part 1 lectures available then. It's actually a really simple concept, and we just barely started applying it at the end of the first class. But I think once you get the concept it's not hard to imagine how you would use it. She did have other aspects to the class (like mat work) that I still didn't understand exactly what the final behavior was supposed to be. It seemed like we were still very much in foundations work.


I haven't done bridging the gap either. Such a long list of classes I want to take...

I am definitely seeing improvement with Hank in general though. I can now run him without the ball in class and not lose speed at all. It seems like it's a pretty common issue for people to work through though. One BC lady with a very high drive dog that had the same issue of brain imploding without the Frisbee around.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I haven't done bridging the gap either. Such a long list of classes I want to take...
> 
> I am definitely seeing improvement with Hank in general though. I can now run him without the ball in class and not lose speed at all. It seems like it's a pretty common issue for people to work through though. One BC lady with a very high drive dog that had the same issue of brain imploding without the Frisbee around.


Oh yeah, I think it's super common, even just judging by the number of Fenzi classes focused on things like that. I'm sure you guys will work through it. It's hard though to worry about messing it up and losing some of the speed and drive you've built.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> I was the one who posted about dogs doing obedience for no treats or toys, but it took thousands of rewards until the dogs understand the exercises and what was expected of them. It's not like these trainers sat down with a green dog and expected the dog to just want to work for free.


I can understand not being able to see the end when you have put in the work step by step with other dogs and know the work you put in defining what you accomplished.. Kennel raised dogs don't know what food is, they don't know what toys are, they don't know how to play, to look to people or interact with people. They don't know what people are for except good or bad...... That is a green dog and beyond... All you have is spending time with them to start and that is where you start just spending time with them out in the kennel sitting there while a dog trots around you , hides in their dog house, comes out and runs back in.. Every day the same thing and you just sit there until they give it themselves.. J was a kennel dog, and you don't get any more complex ability in knowledge then she is able to do now, her vocabulary alone and independent direction ... And yes you bet I tell them they are awesome, that's good, whoo hoo, stop and we all do the happy dance, do the chicken strut and laugh while we going along.. J's 60ft between buildings for her training... was me taking ready position standing arms down all professional ring posture calling J if she ready .. she come darting over to me all happy but do her run away cause she not able to stay still in her head yet...... and I would tell her she was awesome and go do my 60ft heading to the barn to do the chickens.. That is how it started.... and that piece by piece by doing and giving more and more until it was the pretteist join up , ready , step off , heel 60ft to the barn.. You have to let go, you have to let them do what they want and wait to present... 

working a lead is an (art/skill) OMG me in narc dog school lol... you in front of the dog facing them walking backwards holding the lead in one hand and presenting searching grid with the other hand watching the dog, where your searching, where your going behind you, paying attention to your body to help keep the dog at a steady pace and on search, and holding that lead not to mis cue the dog with anything of it ...... I took a new dog to our kennels, a green patrol dog young pup just in the program and in 30 days to teach him narc work from scratch.. and certified him off lead at 100% he didn't miss an aid in certifications.. If I hadn't he would of been sent back to Lackland AFB since they were going to all dual dogs. How did I do it.. I let him run around off leash and waited for him to come back to get back on search while he was learning... one tiny part of it at a time........... and he did like his ball reward but he wasn't ball or food crazy, he enjoy'd having someone and doing stuff,, he just needed someone to give him the opportunity to learn and let him learn how he learned... leashes for me get in the way.. they are at times restrictive and distracting.. and I am not lugging tons of equipment around at all times for any of the animals.. 

All my guys are in a safe place, they can't go anywhere , can't hurt anything... if they take off that is it they take off and I continue on with my chores and ready to acknowledge "hey there you are" when they dart back. Ready becomes a key word because that is what I use... Arka don't want to come when called,, I walk out and go lay on the ground looking at the sky or stars with him.. we start to have a good time being next to each other and I say ok lets go, hug kiss him on the head laugh,, get up and we heading back to the house he is ready at that time to want to come with me you can feel the difference they either not with you,, or they with you.. when they with you is is the time to use.... Arka has an awesome recall at distance for his breed... even the hurry hurry hurry cue to get him to run on recall when I need it... at a distance .... 

I play pretend lead all the time on all the animals.. because it's funny it makes me laugh but the animals for what ever reason go right along with it.. and it's even funnier for the Clydesdale's for me.. time spent, include them, engage them teach them how to do with you, by doing it with them. show them things that mean nothing .. like reading the box of brownies you just took down from the shelf presenting the box at their level.. they sitting right there watching you anyway.. it's funny to see them want to see what it is , listen and watch as you point to a silly box and say B-e-t-t-y C-r-o-c-k-e-r... you can use that type of tight interaction with you for other things .. they open for anything... it takes time and building their confidence that anything is good so you have it to work with..


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

This turned into a great discussion! I will admit to getting a little 'training blind', especially now when I'm so immersed in my classes. Once you're so set in doing something one way, and that's the way you were taught, it's nice to get other perspectives (at least the ones that don't advocate pain - I'm just not a P+ person, can't do it. And I think I get kicked out of my program if I do, anyway, lol). But it's really interesting to see how other people work to motivate and build relationships. 

I'm currently working towards exploring the differences in pet dog training vs higher level sport and show training (Jean's program teaches mostly for pet dogs, though a lot of the concepts can, of course, be used for higher levels). I think analogies like the paycheck are very useful for non-dog-people clients, your everyday dog owner. Which is what my clientele is. They need little sticky 'sound-bite' like phrases that are easy to remember. And that one I've found particularly helpful when dealing with a client who thinks they're rewarding too much. We'll get to the variable interval (slot machine) schedules later, but for the beginning, relating it to their own work/pay is really helpful.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I do think that +R dog training as it's usually taught right now (basic clicker stuff, variable reinforcement, etc) can break down for some dogs when you get to the ring. I think this is where the balanced trainers show up and say "You can't train a dog to X level without punishment!" Because eventually some dogs are going to say "No, I don't want to do this without a cookie available" or even "No, I don't want to do this even for a cookie". Some dogs will be happy to work no matter what the situation, but we need methods for dealing with dogs of all temperaments instead of making people select high drive dogs with natural work ethics and wash out everything else. I see some trainers really working on this area, mostly online trainers. In person I tend to find people who either turn to compulsion at this point, or just recommend that maybe your dog isn't cut out for this.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> I do think that +R dog training as it's usually taught right now (basic clicker stuff, variable reinforcement, etc) can break down for some dogs when you get to the ring. I think this is where the balanced trainers show up and say "You can't train a dog to X level without punishment!" Because eventually some dogs are going to say "No, I don't want to do this without a cookie available" or even "No, I don't want to do this even for a cookie". Some dogs will be happy to work no matter what the situation, but we need methods for dealing with dogs of all temperaments instead of making people select high drive dogs with natural work ethics and wash out everything else. I see some trainers really working on this area, mostly online trainers. In person I tend to find people who either turn to compulsion at this point, or just recommend that maybe your dog isn't cut out for this.


Yep, it's very frustrating too!


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I do think that +R dog training as it's usually taught right now (basic clicker stuff, variable reinforcement, etc) can break down for some dogs when you get to the ring. I think this is where the balanced trainers show up and say "You can't train a dog to X level without punishment!" Because eventually some dogs are going to say "No, I don't want to do this without a cookie available" or even "No, I don't want to do this even for a cookie". Some dogs will be happy to work no matter what the situation, but we need methods for dealing with dogs of all temperaments instead of making people select high drive dogs with natural work ethics and wash out everything else. I see some trainers really working on this area, mostly online trainers. In person I tend to find people who either turn to compulsion at this point, or just recommend that maybe your dog isn't cut out for this.


Gah. I JUST read an article on this. The 'you can't train a dog to X level without punishment' bit. Now I can't find it. I'll have to look through my bookmarks.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> Gah. I JUST read an article on this. The 'you can't train a dog to X level without punishment' bit. Now I can't find it. I'll have to look through my bookmarks.


Denise Fenzi and 'Have to' Vs "Want To" 

Like the idea that at some point there is no have to, because you can't correct the dog in the ring and the dog may well decide it doesn't care about the correction as much as the cookie, and that the success rates in obedience are about the same. It's a good article.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Yes! That's the one! Haha. I knew someone would know what I was talking about.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> Yep, it's very frustrating too!


It really is. For Watson I chose compulsion because I couldn't find anyone to help me otherwise. I try to keep it gentle, and it is only for blowing off recalls which he has started to do less and less as I am consistent. I don't like it, and I wish I could say "I do things so positively and I would never use punishment or compulsion ever!" but I just couldn't find any other way with this dog. And you know, he's not shut down with the methods I'm using and he's getting better. If I could have found another way I would have done it, and I wasn't willing to say "oh well, he's not good off leash so I guess we'll never do any sports off leash ever"


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I totally agree there is no, (one way fits everything) when it comes to working with animals


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I am all for weeding out the "reward for every little try" thing. Sure with pups, and dogs where there is no relationship btw dog and handler, it might not work, but, generally speaking, if my dogs dont "do a good job" then they dont get rewarded, period, if they half arse it, or loaf through it, then nope, no reward for you. But reward for a job well done? sure.

I am not MEAN to them, I dont say "bad dog!" or whatever, I just dont reward them, I stay very neutral and dont look at them or engage them until our next turn (if at class or practicing by myself). Lincoln is so used to luring, that I can lure him with my empty hand, then reward with a treat from behind my back after he has done the behavior.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I could see that there are levels of fine-tuning that require 'correction'. But, I don't believe correction requires punishment, I think clicker training and chaining can provide any level of fine tuning required [Susan Garrett?]. 

But, I think a treat may be required at the beginning to indicate to a puppy when he is learning the correct behavior. But once a puppy has learned how to learn, that you can develop a relationship and the pup will begin to learn how to communicate [both from you and to you]. Then, play is the reward, later, work is the reward, accomplishment is the reward, and ultimately relationship/communication is the reward. Somewhere in that continuum, 'training' elevates from behavioral with external rewards to cognitive with internal rewards. We do this in public school all the time (or try to), but the scientific transfer to dog training [Chaser the Dog; Brian Hare, etc.] is only recently being researched.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

If I am in a situation that I can't give a reward right away, I teach my dogs a what I like to call "you're going to get a reward!" word, and I use "YES!" said in a certain way, where the dog knows when they heard that word, they did AWESOME and are going to get a reward.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> If I am in a situation that I can't give a reward right away, I teach my dogs a what I like to call "you're going to get a reward!" word, and I use "YES!" said in a certain way, where the dog knows when they heard that word, they did AWESOME and are going to get a reward.


the magic spell breaker word for Arka in an intense tantrum is "chicken" lol lol lol lol ...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

> You want your dog to make mistakes so you can give corrections and more corrections the better.


This is likely the most completely absurd statement I have ever seen on this forum....


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I don't want to give the OP too much credit, but this is what Dunbar said about Bite Inhibition. Even if a dog doesn't Bite, you want put him in a situation to teach him Bite Inhibition, so that in an emergency situation, such as a broken leg, he inhibits his bite rather than going with painful instinct and biting to the bone.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This thread is over six years old. You'll get more responses if you start a new one. You can copy and paste your post into a new post, but I'm closing this one.


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