# Should I have this pregnant dog spayed?



## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

I just took in a pregnant chihuahua. She is almost 3 years old and is pregnant with her fourth litter. The owner said her last pregnancy was very hard on her. Says she was in labor for over 20 hours, had two babies and one was stillborn. I really do not want to abort the babies she is carrying right now unless absolutely necessary. She is only a few weeks pregnant. She has also never been vaccinated so that will be done after (if) she has the babies. If she does have them we will be keeping them, she hasn't ever had more than 2 at a time. She weighs 7 pounds and is the sweetest little thing I have ever met.

I don't know if it being hard last time will make it hard this time?

ETA: I forgot to mention that I've already spoken with a vet who said she will probably be fine if she has them and this happens all the time and most dogs handle it okay. I am going to get more vet opinions also.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

it is probably best for her health to have an emergency spay and also so she doesnt have any more litters that way she can also be vaccinated


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Miranda16 said:


> it is probably best for her health to have an emergency spay and also so she doesnt have any more litters that way she can also be vaccinated


Okay. Either way she will be spayed after this one and not have anymore litters.


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## Thracian (Dec 24, 2008)

Do you have any information about the breed and size of the dog that impregnated her?


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Yes, her old owners also own the father, he is a little chihuahua also about the same size as she is. 

I just made a vet appt for Monday afternoon to have her examined.


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

my reasoning for the espay would be that she did have issues with her last pregnancy and a 20 hour labor for such a small dog is pretty tough ... it would probably be better for her to not have any more litters


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Spay her.

(message too short)


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I'd have her spayed and vaccinated. Not only do you have a dog with a history of difficult labour but she has NEVER been vaccinated which leaves the pups at a strong disadvantage due to lack of immunity. This is a bad idea all around to have these pups. 

Give the dog a break and have her spayed. This is her FOURTH litter and she's not even three???? That poor dog has had enough stress and physical difficulties. Bred too soon, no health checks, god knows what sort of genetic issues she may have due to irresponsible breeding.

I'd like to kick the previous owners. No vaccines AND breeding irresponsibly. Damn humans.

This whole situation makes me very angry. You should be angry too, do what's right for the dog.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Cracker said:


> You should be angry too, do what's right for the dog.


I don't know why you assume I'm not? 

Thank you for your thoughts.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Because you say you are spaying her AFTER this litter. 

If this were my bitch, she would be having surgery Monday morning. Toy bitches especially can have trouble with whelping. Toy bitches die during whelping more often, and the puppies die more often.

You asked. You've been told. Sometimes I don't know why we bother.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> You asked. You've been told. Sometimes I don't know why we bother.


You bother because there is always the chance that someone WILL actually listen to the good advice and it will save their dog. Even if the question asker ignores good advice, someone else reading your information might remember it.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> Because you say you are spaying her AFTER this litter.
> 
> If this were my bitch, she would be having surgery Monday morning. Toy bitches especially can have trouble with whelping. Toy bitches die during whelping more often, and the puppies die more often.
> 
> You asked. You've been told. Sometimes I don't know why we bother.


Wow. I did say that either way she WILL be spayed, whether she has the puppies or not, and will have NO MORE litters, whether she has this one or not. You are acting like I've definately said that she will have the puppies. I do not know what to do yet which is why I came and asked your opinions! Wow. I'm just really shocked and taken aback by the hostility in your comment. It's completely out of line. It sounds like you have just decided what I'm going to do and have an attitude about it. I have not decided so please don't put thoughts and words in my mouth and don't tell me I'm not angry about the trauma this poor dog has already been through. Wow. I guess I'm done here, I will just decided without your criticism and do what the vets suggest. I'm completely blown away by the reaction I've gotten from you. Amazing.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Shell said:


> You bother because there is always the chance that someone WILL actually listen to the good advice and it will save their dog. Even if the question asker ignores good advice, someone else reading your information might remember it.


Why are people assuming that I'm ignoring this advice?? I don't get it


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

SandyPuppy said:


> I don't know why you assume I'm not?
> 
> Thank you for your thoughts.


I wasn't assuming and I'm not judging you. 
Nothing in your original post came across as angry or even frustrated with the backyard breeder the chi came from. I am a very even keeled poster here and try my very best to be diplomatic. The situation this pup is in (not YOU, the situation) is sad and frustrating. You asked if we thought the dog should be spayed. I am very emphatically saying yes. VERY emphatically.

She's not quite three, this is litter number four. She has been bred pretty much on each and every heat cycle she has had. Her last one resulted in a long labour and a lost pup. This next one could kill her. Whether you can offer the pups she is carrying a home or not is beside the point. She has not had a chance to rest her small body, has simply been a puppy making machine. This is not a life. It would be the best for ALL involved to spay her if it's still early in her pregnancy. 

I don't know how I could make it plainer. 

Please remember that my concerns are for the dog, not you, though you have very kindly taken this dog in and deserve respect for that. The choice in the end is yours.

Edit:
To add after seeing several more posts (It took a long time to compose the above post)....

Honestly, the harshness is because those of us who work with dogs each and every day cannot even see why you asked the question. To us, the ONLY answer would be to spay and abort the pregnancy. Every day us regulars here repeatedly offer support and advice based on our extensive experience..each and every day. It can get pretty tiresome to repeat ourselves ad nauseum in the hopes that people will finally start to "get it", whether it is training advice, behaviour issues or health issues but the absolute worst ones to deal with are the irresponsible breeding threads. Frustrating doesn't even start to describe it. 

No one here has been rude to you, you are reading a LOT into what is being written. Defensiveness, IMO, means you HAVE thought this out, you KNOW what would be best, but don't like the answers.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Cracker said:


> I wasn't assuming and I'm not judging you.
> Nothing in your original post came across as angry or even frustrated with the backyard breeder the chi came from. I am a very even keeled poster here and try my very best to be diplomatic. The situation this pup is in (not YOU, the situation) is sad and frustrating. You asked if we thought the dog should be spayed. I am very emphatically saying yes. VERY emphatically.
> 
> She's not quite three, this is litter number four. She has been bred pretty much on each and every heat cycle she has had. Her last one resulted in a long labour and a lost pup. This next one could kill her. Whether you can offer the pups she is carrying a home or not is beside the point. She has not had a chance to rest her small body, has simply been a puppy making machine. This is not a life. It would be the best for ALL involved to spay her if it's still early in her pregnancy.
> ...


I agree with everything you just said about the situation. Just because my original post wasn't angry does not mean that I'm not EXTREMELY angry about the way this poor dog was treated. Not everyone expresses their anger. My reason for posting was not for expressing the anger, it was to find out information. The way she has been used up to this point is so outrageous I did not think it necessary to comment out loud on how horrible it is. Please remember that people are different and not everyone expresses their emotions in all situations or in the same way. Also please remember that my concern also is for the dog. Thats why I'm here! Thats why I've been getting not one but several vet's opinions and made an appt for her to be examined!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

SandyPuppy said:


> Why are people assuming that I'm ignoring this advice?? I don't get it


I wasn't; I was answering Redyre in regards to the all too frequent times a poster comes here, asks for advice, argues against all of it, and leaves in a huff, presumably to ignore the generally good advice given (especially advice given by people like Redyre who is an experienced, responsible breeder).

When you post that you are taking her into the vet's for an e-spay, then it will be obvious you are not ignoring everyone's advice. When you post that you are still considering letting her have the puppies, it appears that you are generally ignoring the advice.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

_
I don't know if it being hard last time will make it hard this time?

ETA: I forgot to mention that I've already spoken with a vet who said she will probably be fine if she has them and this happens all the time and most dogs handle it okay. I am going to get more vet opinions also.

Either way she will be spayed after this one and not have anymore litters. _


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Shell said:


> When you post that you are still considering letting her have the puppies, it appears that you are generally ignoring the advice.


No, it means that I'm also considering what the vets say. I guess that is bad in your eyes. Not mine.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> _
> I don't know if it being hard last time will make it hard this time?
> 
> ETA: I forgot to mention that I've already spoken with a vet who said she will probably be fine if she has them and this happens all the time and most dogs handle it okay. I am going to get more vet opinions also.
> ...


Exactly. Either way. Meaning she will not have any more litters either way, whether she has this current OR NOT. Don't see how you are not understanding that.

Is there something wrong with asking the vet?


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Cracker said:


> I wasn't assuming and I'm not judging you.
> Nothing in your original post came across as angry or even frustrated with the backyard breeder the chi came from. I am a very even keeled poster here and try my very best to be diplomatic. The situation this pup is in (not YOU, the situation) is sad and frustrating. You asked if we thought the dog should be spayed. I am very emphatically saying yes. VERY emphatically.
> 
> She's not quite three, this is litter number four. She has been bred pretty much on each and every heat cycle she has had. Her last one resulted in a long labour and a lost pup. This next one could kill her. Whether you can offer the pups she is carrying a home or not is beside the point. She has not had a chance to rest her small body, has simply been a puppy making machine. This is not a life. It would be the best for ALL involved to spay her if it's still early in her pregnancy.
> ...


So you are upset that I asked the question? Ridiculous. Sorry I don't have the same experience as you and didn't know. At least I thought of it myself and came to ASK. Instead of just assuming everything would be fine. I have NO experience with this whatsoever so I find it very discouraging that people would be harsh on me for not knowing and asking a question to try to find out and make sure this dog is safe. And yes telling me that I'm not listening and just making up my own mind and not liking the answers is being extremely rude. I'm defensive because you all are judging me and assuming you KNOW what I'm going to do and being rude about it. RedyreRottweilers literally put words in my mouth. That is most definately rude. Still would like to know whats so evil about consulting vets in this matter.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Sandy Puppy,
If you are to post things on an internet forum, CLARITY is important. Expressing yourself about a situation like this, that is BOUND to cause a bit of a clamour, is equally important. You don't have to gush, but you do have to be clear as to why you are asking, what is happening and what exactly you are asking. Misinterpretations happen all the time because posters are not detailed enough. Why do you think it took me so dang long to write the reply? Because I wanted it to be as clear as possible.

This is not a face to face where we can hear your voice, see your body language etc. and we do the best we can with what we have. 

If my vet told me, if I was in your situation, that "it should be okay" I'd fire the damn vet.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Why do you want her to have the pups? You said you would keep them, so its good that they will have a home, but why do you want them so badly as to risk the lives of both the mother and any potential pups? 

There are also the future health concerns, given the extra risk coming from an a)unvaccinated mother and b)backyard breeder lineage


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Sandy Puppy,
> If you are to post things on an internet forum, CLARITY is important. Expressing yourself about a situation like this, that is BOUND to cause a bit of a clamour, is equally important. You don't have to gush, but you do have to be clear as to why you are asking, what is happening and what exactly you are asking. Misinterpretations happen all the time because posters are not detailed enough. Why do you think it took me so dang long to write the reply? Because I wanted it to be as clear as possible.
> 
> This is not a face to face where we can hear your voice, see your body language etc. and we do the best we can with what we have.
> ...


I've spoken with another vet since then and that one also said it would probably be okay, that there are chances with any breed like chihuahua who has a large head but that even considering her history, does not mean she is going to have problems with this litter. I think the responsible thing is to do is consider what people say AND what the vets say. And if just because I don't decide instantly after hearing your opinion (notice I also have not decided toward the vet's opinion either) does not mean I'm ignoring anyones advice. I'm taking it all in to consideration and still have to see the vet Monday. I will not make any decisions until then. I'm trying to do the right thing here, not blindly make snap decisions.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Shell said:


> Why do you want her to have the pups? You said you would keep them, so its good that they will have a home, but why do you want them so badly as to risk the lives of both the mother and any potential pups?
> 
> There are also the future health concerns, given the extra risk coming from an a)unvaccinated mother and b)backyard breeder lineage


When did I ever say "I want these pups so badly"?? Please, please stop putting words in my mouth. I'm just trying to find out what would be the right thing to do here. That is all. According to the vets there is no risk to the pups because of her being unvaccinated. (just to clarify, that is not me arguing saying I want her to have the puppies, just giving you info on what the vets said so far). The only risk as far as vaccines would be if I got her vaccinated now and still had the puppies, the vaccine would cause birth defects.

ETA: I have a hard time with aborting life unless its necessary for the life/health of the mother. That is what I'm trying to find out. Sorry if some of you disagree with me and/or think that makes me a bad person. But maybe that answers your question.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

SandyPuppy said:


> When did I ever say "I want these pups so badly"?? Please, please stop putting words in my mouth. I'm just trying to find out what would be the right thing to do here. That is all. According to the vets there is no risk to the pups because of her being unvaccinated. (just to clarify, that is not me arguing saying I want her to have the puppies, just giving you info on what the vets said so far). The only risk as far as vaccines would be if I got her vaccinated now and still had the puppies, the vaccine would cause birth defects.


I said you seem to want the pups badly because you APPEAR (note that I said APPEAR) to be trying to justify her having the pups in spite of the risks. There is absolutely no benefit to anyone other than YOU in her having the pups and MANY things that can go wrong to harm her. And she's the one that doesn't get a say in this. 

Has your vet said that vaccines now would cause birth defects?


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Shell said:


> I said you seem to want the pups badly because you APPEAR (note that I said APPEAR) to be trying to justify her having the pups in spite of the risks. There is absolutely no benefit to anyone other than YOU in her having the pups and MANY things that can go wrong to harm her. And she's the one that doesn't get a say in this.
> 
> Has your vet said that vaccines now would cause birth defects?


I edited my last post so maybe that will help you understand where I'm coming from. Maybe not.

Yes the vet said if she has the vaccines while pregnant it can cause birth defects in the pups IF they are born.

I am not trying to justify anything, just trying to find out what is the right thing to do in this situation. Period. Telling you what the vets have told me is NOT me trying to justify anything. I will also tell the vet on Monday what you all have said!


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## pittsabowawa (Jul 26, 2009)

Let me see if I can give you another point of view.

My dog Bella was adopted after her mother's owner gave up an "oops litter". Meaning that the mother's owner was irresponisble enough to let her bitch get pregnant and have the puppies. No on knew who her father was or what health concerns her mother might be carrying.

Now, Today, 3+ years later I'm sitting here while my baby is in the hospital recovering from MAJOR surgery to fix a ruptured disk in her back that left her paralyzed last night. I had to see my baby, who I've raised since she was 8weeks old dragging her lifeless legs around behind her and me having to hold her up just so she could relieve herself.

It will cost me $4000 +/- to fix my dog. There is a possibility she will never walk again. This ENTIRE thing was genetic... there is nothing I could have done to stop it and no way I could have known it would happen.

I love my dog with all my heart and words cannot express the pain I am going through right now. BUT if someone had merely been responsible and gotten their dog aborted I and my dog would not be going through this right now.

Please think of the Mom and the puppies. What if there is some horrible genetic defect in them that doesn't crop up until later in life? Believe me, no dog owner should have to go through that.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

This morning I was leaning toward having her spayed right away but the vet who examined her today said that it would be a very high risk surgery at this point and her odds are better if she has the puppies, so that is what we are going to do. She is going to do bloodwork and some other tests and do x-rays about a week before she is due (when the pup's bones harden) to see how many she has so we will know if they are all out or not.

I'm glad I listened to my gut and got all the info before giving in to pressure and making an uninformed decision.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

No surprise there. Good luck to ya.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

At two weeks post breeding, I am surprised a vet will not spay/abort. I'm not certain they could even say with certainty that she is pregnant at that point. The clinic I work at does a lot of feral cat trap/spay/release surgeries and there have been numerous times there have been cats in early pregnancy..none had complications during or after surgery.

If she has a history of difficult pregnancies, it's a high likelihood she'll have issue this time as well. We had an emergency last week of a 3 lb Chi (that was pregnancy weight) who was bred to a Chi the same size as her. She had had three litters before..all with difficulties. One c-section and two stillborn litters. This litter was just two pups who were quite large. She was in labor for most of a day with no progress. They gave meds with no result. They were getting ready to get her down for surgery when she began to push and did deliver them, but with a lot of blood loss and issue. They had to give her quite a lot of pain meds when one pup was stuck. She is just now recovering from the delivery and had to have some fluids and extra pain meds. It was quite hard on her. And they'll be breeding her again, I'm sure

I hope your girl has better luck, but shame on your vets


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

grab said:


> At two weeks post breeding, I am surprised a vet will not spay/abort. I'm not certain they could even say with certainty that she is pregnant at that point. The clinic I work at does a lot of feral cat trap/spay/release surgeries and there have been numerous times there have been cats in early pregnancy..none had complications during or after surgery.
> 
> If she has a history of difficult pregnancies, it's a high likelihood she'll have issue this time as well. We had an emergency last week of a 3 lb Chi (that was pregnancy weight) who was bred to a Chi the same size as her. She had had three litters before..all with difficulties. One c-section and two stillborn litters. This litter was just two pups who were quite large. She was in labor for most of a day with no progress. They gave meds with no result. They were getting ready to get her down for surgery when she began to push and did deliver them, but with a lot of blood loss and issue. They had to give her quite a lot of pain meds when one pup was stuck. She is just now recovering from the delivery and had to have some fluids and extra pain meds. It was quite hard on her. And they'll be breeding her again, I'm sure
> 
> I hope your girl has better luck, but shame on your vets


Hi, she is at least 3 weeks into the pregnancy and only one of her pregnancies was hard. The vet said would spay now if that was my decision, but that her chances are better to deliver the pups than they are to spay right now, so of course I went with the healthier odds for her. The other two vets also said her chances are good for having a safe delivery. I really don't think all three vets are wrong. I know that cats can be spayed later in their pregnancies, I don't know if dogs can. But the vet physically examined my girl and said hers would be a high risk surgery. She personally examined the dog in question and I don't think she has a reason to lie about it. I hope my girl is safe and I'm doing everything I can to make sure she is. The sad thing is that the people who ditched her after using her up have probably already replaced her with a new breeder, they of course kept the male since he is still useful.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)




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## CoverTune (Mar 11, 2007)

I'm just baffled by the fact that you have vets telling you to go ahead with the whelping.. as far as I know, a pregnant spay actually involves few risks to the bitch, whereas pregnancy and whelping is full of risks.


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

WOW this little girl had *four *pregnancies in her *three* years of life, that is awful. I would be so worried that she wouldn't make it through this one. There are NO guarantees, please spay her ASAP.

Every dog has a right to a happy and healthy long life. Please give her the opportunity. TU


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

At three weeks, though, she's not even halfway through a pregnancy. 

I have no idea why they'd come to the conclusion that a toy breed whose last pregnancy had complications, who is very early in a pregnancy, would be high risk surgery. If she has complications requiring a c-section are they going to refuse to do surgery because it is too high risk? I presume not. A spay is the same surgery for the most part...you're just taking the uterus out altogether. 

There is no difference, that I am aware of, between spaying a cat during pregnancy and a dog.


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## ioreks_mom (Oct 1, 2008)

I can't believe that 3 vets would tell you to keep the pups. That completely boggles my mind. You are risking the life of not only the pups but also the mom by not spaying now. In my opinion spaying and aborting the pups is the only option. Instead you are going to keep the pups and risk everything. Very irresponsible.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

NO ONE ON THE PLANET can tell you that any bitch that has been bred is pregnant until at least 21 days post breeding. That test is a blood test which can be unreliable until closer to 30 days post breeding/ovulation. Around this time pregnancy can also be detected by ultrasound. At 30 days the vesicles are about the size of a grape.

14 days post breeding the embryos have not even implanted into the uterus.

Spaying before day 30 post breeding carries a little higher risk of post op bleeding because of engorgement of the uterus. It is definitely less risky than ANY WHELPING of a toy bitch.

Do not come here and try to blow smoke up our skirts, because plenty of us have enough experience to know better.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

It seems you've made your decision.

I hope the bitch makes it through with little difficulty and that the puppies are healthy. 

I still think ethically, the question of whether to spay or not, should not even have come up. 

Good luck.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> NO ONE ON THE PLANET can tell you that any bitch that has been bred is pregnant until at least 21 days post breeding. That test is a blood test which can be unreliable until closer to 30 days post breeding/ovulation. Around this time pregnancy can also be detected by ultrasound. At 30 days the vesicles are about the size of a grape.
> 
> 14 days post breeding the embryos have not even implanted into the uterus.
> 
> ...


That's what I've been thinking.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

GypsyJazmine said:


> That's what I've been thinking.


Same here. 

Lana


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> NO ONE ON THE PLANET can tell you that any bitch that has been bred is pregnant until at least 21 days post breeding. That test is a blood test which can be unreliable until closer to 30 days post breeding/ovulation. Around this time pregnancy can also be detected by ultrasound. At 30 days the vesicles are about the size of a grape.
> 
> 14 days post breeding the embryos have not even implanted into the uterus.
> 
> ...


They didnt tell me she is pregnant, we are assuming she is pregnant because she mated with a male that lives with her. Don't know what you mean by trying to blow smoke up your skirts. Unless you don't believe I took her to the vet. Message me your email and I can scan and email to you the receipt for the vet visit and the estimate the vet gave me for the bloodwork and the x-rays she plans on doing a week before the pups are due. You are so rude and judgemental, thinking you have all the facts and know me and everything. You don't know anything about this situation. Why are you so eager to think up the worst about someone and then automatically believe that must be the case?


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## Miranda16 (Jan 17, 2010)

well if you dont know for sure if she is pregnant i would get her spayed ... since its still so early it doesnt even matter if she was bred or not it would be almost the same as a normal spay


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Miranda16 said:


> well if you dont know for sure if she is pregnant i would get her spayed ... since its still so early it doesnt even matter if she was bred or not it would be almost the same as a normal spay




Msg2short


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

WOW WOW WOW WOW!!!! 

I seriously was going to stay out of this considering it had gotten so heated without throwing myself into the mix ... 

But seriously, Sandy ... if you have *no* 100% definitive reason to KNOW she is even pregnant the absolute most responsible thing to do is to get her spayed. Seriously!

She has had *FOUR* litters in *THREE *years! Her last litter included a labor that endured for *TWENTY* hours!!! That is absolutely asinine and ridiculous!!! 

No, there is no guarantee that she will have difficulty with another litter ... BUT THERE IS NO GUARANTEE SHE IS EVEN PREGNANT RIGHT NOW EITHER!!!! 

*Come on!* Err on the side of caution, err on the side of humanity, err on the side of this dog's health and well-being! Think of what she's been through already and DO NOT put her through it again! 

Since the vets cannot possibly know for sure she is pregnant right now, what in hell is so risky about her having a spay performed right now???   

And if there were actually 3 vets who gave the go-ahead on seeing this poor dog through yet another litter (IF they even knew all the facts), my bet would be that they are in a collective practice together, rather than being separate vets in different practices in different parts of town. Because I honestly do not believe that unbiased vets would give similar opinions with the facts at hand regarding this dog. No way!

Now, I'm sorry that you think that Red and some others on here, me too probably, are rude to you and are making assumptions, but you gave us the information with which we are making these judgments. The facts we are making these judgments on are as follows:

The dog is small
The dog has had 4 litters in 3 years
The dog had a difficult labor and delivery spanning 20 hours last time
The dog only had one puppy survive her last litter
The dog is MAYBE 3 weeks along, IF she is even pregnant
You don't know she is pregnant for sure
The dog needs to be spayed

So really, what is the issue? It seems pretty clear cut to me and to most around here. She needs to be spayed and she needs to be spayed soon. Not in 44 days. Now.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Your heart is in the right place, infinity, but this person had her mind made up before she ever came here.

Let's hope she does not find out about the miracle of death right along with the miracle of birth. Or maybe the miracle of a 1500 c section. Or hand raising 2 puppies because the bitch died. Or managing mastitis in the bitch because the puppies died. 

=[


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> They didnt tell me she is pregnant, we are assuming she is pregnant because she mated with a male that lives with her. Don't know what you mean by trying to blow smoke up your skirts. Unless you don't believe I took her to the vet. Message me your email and I can scan and email to you the receipt for the vet visit and the estimate the vet gave me for the bloodwork and the x-rays she plans on doing a week before the pups are due. You are so rude and judgemental, thinking you have all the facts and know me and everything. You don't know anything about this situation. Why are you so eager to think up the worst about someone and then automatically believe that must be the case?


because Red is actually right...being that she's a breeder....i know she's right because im what i guess you could call an apprentice breeder. she doesnt have to know you and neither do I. you posted how long ago the bitch was bred, you posted her size, age, how many litters she's had and that's really all the relevant information needed. 

spay the bitch, prevent the _possibility_ of backyard bred pups ending up in shelters and let this poor pooch have some peace.

Pregnancy...especially in the conditions you describe can be VERY hard on a bitch. and dangerous for BOTH the bitch AND the pups. You arent taking this dog to a reproductive specialist are you? Im going to guess no. 

nobody's attacking you personally. we're shocked. shocked and alarmed that you would allow this under these circumstances. 

*shakes head*


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

SandyPuppy said:


> ETA: I have a hard time with aborting life unless its necessary for the life/health of the mother. That is what I'm trying to find out. Sorry if some of you disagree with me and/or think that makes me a bad person. But maybe that answers your question.


I think this is why the original poster is avoiding having the bitch spayed. Although by all appearances, is also completely ignoring her own rationale of "its okay if its for the life/health of the mother" which in this case, it is.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

Wow this is pretty heated. But honestly I am going to agree with everyone else. The odds are stacked up against our bitch, and I would be curious about the reasons the vets are pushing for the birth. Considering that they will get more money if they have to do all the testing and x-rays as well as a possible c-section. Where as if they just do the spay and the vaccines they will get far less money. Just saying. 

The reason most people are so frustrated is because we see these posts all the time. Sadly it never seems like the advice is taken seriously or it is overruled for some reason. Usually the case of the puppies being homed is a problem, but in this case it is the mothers health. The vets say there is little risk but that doesn't mean that there couldn't be complications anyway, a vet can only predict so much. However bitches get e-spays all the time of all shapes and sizes and it is more likely that there will be less complications during a standard spay. Personally I would not risk the life of the mother and her pups if I could avoid it.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

SandyPuppy said:


> This morning I was leaning toward having her spayed right away but the vet who examined her today said that it would be a very high risk surgery at this point and her odds are better if she has the puppies, so that is what we are going to do. She is going to do bloodwork and some other tests and do x-rays about a week before she is due (when the pup's bones harden) to see how many she has so we will know if they are all out or not.
> 
> I'm glad I listened to my gut and got all the info before giving in to pressure and making an uninformed decision.


 
I can tell you now coming from someone who's very experienced in small dog breeding and whelping, it's far more high risk for her to have the pups than to have a spay. She's already had one very complicated pregnancy, three litters and was started breeding too young. She is also very susceptible to illness due to the lack of vaccinations and her pups will be at VERY high risk as well. 

It truly sounds like the vets are more concerned with the money they can make from the C-section than the health of the dog. BTW, she WILL need a C section for this litter, it's pretty much guaranteed given the breed of the bitch. I only pray you don't end up with a dead bitch listening to this vet.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

SandyPuppy said:


> They didnt tell me she is pregnant, we are assuming she is pregnant because she mated with a male that lives with her. Don't know what you mean by trying to blow smoke up your skirts. Unless you don't believe I took her to the vet. Message me your email and I can scan and email to you the receipt for the vet visit and the estimate the vet gave me for the bloodwork and the x-rays she plans on doing a week before the pups are due. You are so rude and judgemental, thinking you have all the facts and know me and everything. You don't know anything about this situation. Why are you so eager to think up the worst about someone and then automatically believe that must be the case?


 
You're not even sure she's pregnant, she COULD just as well have Pyo at this point and you could lose her to it by the time this vet takes action. FIND A DIFFERENT VET AND GET HER SPAYED, at this point it could save her life. This vet is looking to milk you, you are getting RIPPED OFF. 

Red is right about the implantation of the eggs in the uterus, it hasn't even occured yet. 

The reason people are making the assumptions is because we've heard this song and dance a 100 times from others.


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## GoodDogCarl (Jun 5, 2010)

i would spay the dog.

I wouldnt even question it. Hard litter previously = dont even try to risk HER life for a couple of puppies that arent here yet, and may not even live when born, possibly killing the mother in the process. 

The only reason to allow her to go through this is simply to have puppies, and i find that very very wrong.


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## Elida (May 6, 2010)

Sandypuppy, I understand where you are coming from, believe me. when I got my dogs, tina was in heat already and Danny was not neutured either. I called a few vets in the area, one of them suggested I should bring tina over after one month, he wasn't eager to spay a pregnant dog, he suggested some injections to terminate the pregnancy, and then spay her! Another one was very rude to me for keeping a bitch in heat and an entire male together(the dogs were in a foster home before I got them, I had no say in this). I was torn apart, for me it was unethical to terminate a pregnancy, and she never had a litter before, so she was never going to be a mother. I read a lot, I talked to people, one of my friends wanted 2 puppies from the litter, another friend asked for one. I could keep one myself so 4 pups were safe with good homes already. BUT what if there were 8 pups?? Still I kept searching, found a vet who was very understanding, he told me the risks are much less with the spay, we weren't sure if she is even pregnant, instead of going through delivery, we chose to spay her. After the operation he told me she was pregnant. I really wish he didn't tell me that, I still feel bad about it. I KNOW, I did the right thing. The shelters are full of adorable puppies in need of a home, my dogs were even found abandoned and they were on the death row, they aren't even 2 years old yet. Even if my dog was ok after the delivery, I could never forgive myself if I caused a puppy sitting in a shelter. 
What I am trying to say is, I am not experienced at all, this was what I've been through, but these guys here have seen it all. Please listen to them, try to Understand what they are saying without getting emotional or defensive. Find a vet to do the surgery. It is not harder than a regular spay op, which she has to go through either way. End this poor baby's misery, you are all she's got!


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm sure Sandy is not coming back because she feels beaten up, although all we were trying to do was explain to her how important spaying her dog is and why.

I'm pro-choice where humans are concerned, so I really don't understand the "ethical" dilemma where dogs are concerned, honestly. 

I mean, seriously ... we have a MAJOR pet overpopulation problem in this country ... on this planet, actually. There is no good reason to bring "oops" litters into the world when they will most likely, at some point in their lives, end up in a shelter and euthanized. Or worse, possibly run over by a car because they got out, or die of cancer or some other terrible disease. Prevent their birth now, or end their life later. Which is the better call?

Do we not have enough irresponsible breeders and puppy mills out there churning out puppies left and right so that we don't need more contributing to the problem?

And especially when the mother dog's life is at a high risk due to having a previous high risk pregnancy??? 

And even moreso when the pregnancy is not even confirmed??? 

Why is this such a no-brainer to everyone except the OP??? Where, exactly is the "ethical" dilemma??? 

I am quite literally just astounded and dumbfounded!


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## Jare (Aug 12, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> NO ONE ON THE PLANET can tell you that any bitch that has been bred is pregnant until at least 21 days post breeding. That test is a blood test which can be unreliable until closer to 30 days post breeding/ovulation. Around this time pregnancy can also be detected by ultrasound. At 30 days the vesicles are about the size of a grape.
> 
> 14 days post breeding the embryos have not even implanted into the uterus.
> 
> ...




Wow, way to go Red. +1




Miranda16 said:


> well if you dont know for sure if she is pregnant i would get her spayed ... since its still so early it doesnt even matter if she was bred or not it would be almost the same as a normal spay


Exactly. 

And hey, I always see it as getting her spayed is just stopping more dogs from entering the world while millions sit in shelters. Even if the person with the pregnant dog says they're going to keep the pups, already have homes lined up yadda yadda yadda, get them aborted and adopt a dog or two from a shelter and save their lives. If you have room, time space and the money for caring for puppies and keeping them and adding more dogs to your home, get new dogs from the shelter.


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## DogKisses (May 5, 2010)

The one thing that hasn't been covered...


Who says she will "only have 2?" Just because her other litter were small doesn't mean this one will be (if she's even pregg). What are you going to do if she has 5? Puppies are NOT cheap, spay/neuter, formula if mom dies or if puppy needs a little extra nutrients, shots, food, sickness, ect.


I do understand the "I do not believe in abortion" thing.... BUT there are obvious risks here, HIGH risks. (that said, I believe in abortion for animals. It is a personal choice though as long as you understand what you are getting into)

Will you be able to afford a c-section(did you ask your vet how much they are)? Does your vet take after hours calls? Are your prepared to bottle feed new born puppies if mom dies? It doesn't SOUND hard, but newborns have to be fed every 2-3 hrs around the clock. This means you lay down at night to sleep... and 2hrs later your alarm clock goes off. Repeat until morning. Then you have the issue of puppies that didn't have a momma to teach them how to act properly.... ie biting/potty issues. I know, I went though this with newborn kittens. Try getting up every few hours ALL NIGHT long for WEEKS. And leaving home for 5 hrs? Forget it!!! You have babies to take care of.

Lets not even go into the overpopulation thing, that is beating a dead horse.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

GoodDogCarl said:


> i would spay the dog.
> 
> I wouldnt even question it. Hard litter previously = dont even try to risk HER life for a couple of puppies that arent here yet, and may not even live when born, possibly killing the mother in the process.
> 
> The only reason to allow her to go through this is simply to have puppies, and i find that very very wrong.


You are missing the point that the vet told me it is HIGH-RISK to spay her right now. The whole point of this is the health of this dog. I don't know you people and you aren't doctors like the vet is, of course I'm listening to the doctor. How are you missing the point that I'm all about whats best for this dog and the doctor is telling me its HIGH-RISK to spay her right now???


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Jare said:


> Wow, way to go Red. +1
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not about pet overpopulation, its about it being HIGH-RISK to spay her right now. I have been thinking about it though and I am leaning toward getting her spayed again because it just doesn't make sense to me that it would be higher risk for her to be spayed than to have the puppies. I have since found out that ALL of her pregnancies have been very difficult ones. So yes, I have decided to have her spayed ASAP because I feel in my gut, and from all the information I have so far, that it would be way easier on her than trying to have another litter. It really would have been nice if you all would have not been so judgemental in thinking I just wanted to have the puppies, if that were so I wouldn't have been trying to get as much info as I can and taking her to the vet etc.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

DogKisses said:


> The one thing that hasn't been covered...
> 
> 
> Who says she will "only have 2?" Just because her other litter were small doesn't mean this one will be (if she's even pregg). What are you going to do if she has 5? Puppies are NOT cheap, spay/neuter, formula if mom dies or if puppy needs a little extra nutrients, shots, food, sickness, ect.
> ...


I know how much puppies cost. Its about the whole "I don't believe in abortion thing, it was about the vet saying its HIGH-RISK to have her spayed right now. I since called the other two vets and they said its not high risk. They still both said she could (or could not-no way to tell) have a normal pregnancy. It doesn't really make sense to me that it would be higher risk to spay her than to have the puppies which is why I double checked with the other two vets.

Yes I asked how much a c section would cost, $1700, yes I could have bottle fed all the puppies, I've bottle fed kittens before and know what its like.

Anyway she is going in to be spayed asap. You all should have noticed that I'm only trying to do the right thing here. I'm sure you are happier now but that is only because I'm doing what you wanted. Because I WANT what is best for this dog, but you probably still don't believe that. If you want the phone number for the vet I took her to PM me, you can call her to check if I REALLY took her to the vet or not and if she REALLY told me it would be high-risk to spay the dog.


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## Patt (Feb 12, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> You are missing the point that the vet told me it is HIGH-RISK to spay her right now. The whole point of this is the health of this dog. I don't know you people and you aren't doctors like the vet is, of course I'm listening to the doctor. How are you missing the point that I'm all about whats best for this dog and the doctor is telling me its HIGH-RISK to spay her right now???


Perhaps I missed it somewhere, what is her name?

I wish the 'dog' the very best. Hopefully all will go well.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Any surgery and the required anesthesia carries a risk. I agree that the risk of a post heat spay this early in the game carries less risk than allowing her to move forward and whelp the puppies.

I wish you all good luck in a safe surgery and recovery for her.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

SandyPuppy said:


> It's not about pet overpopulation, its about it being HIGH-RISK to spay her right now. I have been thinking about it though and I am leaning toward getting her spayed again because it just doesn't make sense to me that it would be higher risk for her to be spayed than to have the puppies. I have since found out that ALL of her pregnancies have been very difficult ones. So yes, I have decided to have her spayed ASAP because I feel in my gut, and from all the information I have so far, that it would be way easier on her than trying to have another litter. It really would have been nice if you all would have not been so judgemental in thinking I just wanted to have the puppies, if that were so I wouldn't have been trying to get as much info as I can and taking her to the vet etc.


 I'm so pleased you are getting her spayed. As others have stated a spay this early (before you can even be sure she is pregnant) is much lower risk than carrying a pregnancy to term. Even for a dog that hadn't had problems before, a pregnancy is more dangerous. And with this dog's history, you are definitely doing the right thing.


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

If I were you I would never again bring my dog to the vet that said a spay is higher risk than a pregnancy. I would be suspicious of everything he/she said since that made absolutely no sense at all  I'm glad your dog will never have to endure another whelping.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Sandy, I am very glad that you have come to this extremely reasonable decision. I am very glad that you see how much more sensible it is to see this dog through a spay rather than through a potentially dangerous pregnancy and delivery. And it's not because WE "wanted it that way" ... it's because it is truly the best thing for this dog. "WE" as a generally collective group genuinely care very strongly for the welfare of animals, and especially doggies, so we do tend to get very passionate about many subjects. I think you've been a member here long enough to realize that. 




MegaMuttMom said:


> If I were you I would never again bring my dog to the vet that said a spay is higher risk than a pregnancy. I would be suspicious of everything he/she said since that made absolutely no sense at all  I'm glad your dog will never have to endure another whelping.



I completely second this! I would very seriously question this vet's ethics and practice ideals if s/he is saying things like this, being fully aware of the dog's previous pregnancy/delivery history. No, we are not vets, but there are many people here who are or were vet techs and have worked very closely with vets and have assisted in these procedures, are fully aware of the protocols and risks involved in both high risk pregnancies and spays, and can give educated opinions based on true facts.

Thank you for quite possibly saving this dog's life!


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

infiniti said:


> Sandy, I am very glad that you have come to this extremely reasonable decision. I am very glad that you see how much more sensible it is to see this dog through a spay rather than through a potentially dangerous pregnancy and delivery. And it's not because WE "wanted it that way" ... it's because it is truly the best thing for this dog. "WE" as a generally collective group genuinely care very strongly for the welfare of animals, and especially doggies, so we do tend to get very passionate about many subjects. I think you've been a member here long enough to realize that.


 I think I've been a member here long enough for you all to know that I'm not the horrible person you tried to make me out to be. That really hurt.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

SandyPuppy said:


> Anyway she is going in to be spayed asap. You all should have noticed that I'm only trying to do the right thing here. I'm sure you are happier now but that is only because I'm doing what you wanted. Because I WANT what is best for this dog, but you probably still don't believe that. If you want the phone number for the vet I took her to PM me, you can call her to check if I REALLY took her to the vet or not and if she REALLY told me it would be high-risk to spay the dog.


 
I'm glad you're getting her spayed, but I would find a vet that is not involved with the practice you're currently going to, They don't seen too honest to me.


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

SandyPuppy said:


> I think I've been a member here long enough for you all to know that I'm not the horrible person you tried to make me out to be. That really hurt.


Sandy I don't think you are a bad person. I think you were a terribly misinformed person who was horribly misled by an awful veterinarian who had some unknown but ill-thought agenda, and did not have your doggie's best interest in mind.

Not having all the knowledge necessary to make an informed decision does not make a bad person --- it makes a person uneducated. But you thought it through, educated yourself and came to a very reasonable and sensible decision. The frustration that many of us were expressing was that it seemed that you should have been questioning this vet's poor advice much sooner than you did, but the important thing is that you have come to a sound decision.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Sandy, I certainly don't think you're a bad person, I do however think you're trusting the wrong vet. Frankly when I have my doubts abotu what a doctor says, be it a vet or an MD I research myself. I don't completely trust medical professionals becasue being human they make mistakes and some are just downright dishonest. This attitude has paid off numerous times and saved me pain and suffering. I've seen too many doctors perform the wrong proceedures or give the wrong treatment.


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

You are a very good person, there are not many people out there that would take such time and though in this matter. I think everyone was just frustrated because most everyone felt the vet was wrong, but no one could prove to you that the vet was wrong. I have a hard time always taking what a vet says for truth since many of them are money hungry (this is because I worked with one that was), but then I worry about my doctors also, considering they have misdiagnosed me twice and it was two different doctors.


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## SandyPuppy (Aug 8, 2009)

Active Dog said:


> You are a very good person, there are not many people out there that would take such time and though in this matter. I think everyone was just frustrated because most everyone felt the vet was wrong, but no one could prove to you that the vet was wrong. I have a hard time always taking what a vet says for truth since many of them are money hungry (this is because I worked with one that was), but then I worry about my doctors also, considering they have misdiagnosed me twice and it was two different doctors.


Thank you.


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## DogKisses (May 5, 2010)

Iam glad that you took the time to weigh your options, and are doing your best for this dog. BIG kudos to you! 

No one thinks your stupid, I never did. It's hard to be in that situation, where a vet tells you something... and it's questionable. They are a vet after all. I've been there: I had a "something is not right" feeling too with a vet. From your posts, it sounds like you did too. I am glad that you researched into it and got other opinions.

You are most likely this dogs personal angel, she may have died having this litter.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I certainly didn't think you were a bad person at all. We were all very frustrated and our concern really was for the dog. You got bad veterinary advice from the first vet, for whatever reason, it happens. 
I am relieved you are going ahead with the spay. It too has risks (as does all surgery) but you are certainly making a good step forward for quality of life with this little girl. 
Sending good thoughts.


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