# Resource guarding/over excitement



## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Twice in the past few days Ryker has lashed out at Gypsy from what I can tell is out of over excitement and/or guarding. SO was outside working on his car and Ryker was running around the house whining. Ryker goes to the window and Gypsy does as well. I guess she was too close to him and Ryker growls and tries to bite her. The other time this happened was near the front door (SO was outside, Ryker was stressed because of his SA). I was in the house in the other room both times. I don't think he gave her any warning growl either, it was just very sudden and violent sounding.

Poor Gypsy is so docile she just runs away terrified and goes lay down. He hasn't actually bitten her in these circumstances, but I'm concerned because I'm not sure where it's coming from. He will guard high value things and I can manage that just fine. I just don't know what to do or how to manage this?

He has never done it when we actually leave, just when one of us is outside doing something and he wants to be out there and he's stressed out because of it. 

Do you think neutering would make a difference? I don't want Gypsy to end up terrified of him. I definitely won't be adding a third dog if this behavior continues.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

It sounds less like resource guarding to me, than re-direction/over arousal. 

https://wildewmn.wordpress.com/2015/03/30/redirected-aggression-in-dogs/


Honestly, I *don't* know that neutering would help and don't have a ton of experience with this. Probably interrupting and preventing is the lynch-pin, until he learns to keep a grip on himself. (Don't ask me how he learns that; I don't know but someone will) That said, snarking off (growling/snapping at her without contact) is not something I would stress terribly. I mean work on it, sure, but him saying "BACK OFF" and her backing off is not something you need to panic about. Sad for her, for sure, but it's really not the end of the world. 

And a whole lot better than her NOT leaving and going to lie down, frankly.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Thank you that resource was super helpful. It sounds just like redirected aggression. I believe he was very over aroused under these circumstances. I'm just worried because this is a new behavior and I don't want it developing into anything else. When this happened I yelled as an automatic response and then I put him in his crate for a couple minutes. I'm sure the yelling didn't help but I didn't know what else to do. Do you think time outs are appropriate after something like this? I guess I will need to pay more attention and separate them when he starts to get stressed like that.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I really don't know a whole lot about this, but I doubt crating for a minute or two to calm down is really bad. 

http://www.caretoadopt.org/info/display?PageID=2319 - this article seems to basically treat it like general reactivity? Or other things that overstimulate a dog, with both prevention and management and maybe counter conditioning?


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I have found out with dogs that react this way is to remove them from the situation. I have also learned to redirect the dogs prior to it getting to this point. My own experience is that the dogs learn to cope better in the situation that used to amp them up. For example: Doberman would get amped up and redirect on the other dogs if the neighbors dogs were out. Now when the neighbors dogs are out, the Doberman comes to me and sits waiting for the praise. It did take some time and some failures but now the failures are less and the success is higher. Now in some instances he can even be with the group. Even at times he will leave the group to come back to me. In my situation even snarking can become a very big thing. I stop it right away. In your situation with only two dogs it can be manageble. My situation, it would/could become a free for all.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

CptJack said:


> but him saying "BACK OFF" and her backing off is not something you need to panic about. Sad for her, for sure, but it's really not the end of the world.
> 
> And a whole lot better than her NOT leaving and going to lie down, frankly.


Seconding this^^

Luke has done this a small handful of times to Zoey (and probably will to Skye at some point in her life) and it is always a situation where they are both over stimulated and it is usually triggered by Zoey getting in his face or jumping on him or just getting too much up in his space and he will snap at her, basically telling her to back the heck off. She complies, its over. He never makes contact, never chases her, just snap in her direction and done. If need be I will make them go lay down on their beds for a minute, but usually they are fine after that. I try to step in before the situation escalates if I see it headed that way, by redirecting them away from whatever is causing the over arousal. Usually it's our front window and there's something outside. My rule for the front window is you can look all you want, you can give a couple alert barks, but once I come check it out and say "that's enough" it's over. Anything other than quiet watching beyond that point gets them removed from the window.

I do watch 3 of them more closely than I did just Luke and Zoey, because I know that Zoey will always back off from Luke. But Skye's can be a little jerk at times and what I don't want happening is one dog correcting another and then the third feeling like they need to add their opinion as well. So any signs of over arousal are redirected much faster now and the 3 of them are not loose together unless supervised.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> I have found out with dogs that react this way is to remove them from the situation. I have also learned to redirect the dogs prior to it getting to this point. My own experience is that the dogs learn to cope better in the situation that used to amp them up. For example: Doberman would get amped up and redirect on the other dogs if the neighbors dogs were out. Now when the neighbors dogs are out, the Doberman comes to me and sits waiting for the praise. It did take some time and some failures but now the failures are less and the success is higher. Now in some instances he can even be with the group. Even at times he will leave the group to come back to me. In my situation even snarking can become a very big thing. I stop it right away. In your situation with only two dogs it can be manageble. My situation, it would/could become a free for all.





CptJack said:


> I really don't know a whole lot about this, but I doubt crating for a minute or two to calm down is really bad.
> 
> http://www.caretoadopt.org/info/display?PageID=2319 - this article seems to basically treat it like general reactivity? Or other things that overstimulate a dog, with both prevention and management and maybe counter conditioning?





kadylady said:


> Seconding this^^
> 
> Luke has done this a small handful of times to Zoey (and probably will to Skye at some point in her life) and it is always a situation where they are both over stimulated and it is usually triggered by Zoey getting in his face or jumping on him or just getting too much up in his space and he will snap at her, basically telling her to back the heck off. She complies, its over. He never makes contact, never chases her, just snap in her direction and done. If need be I will make them go lay down on their beds for a minute, but usually they are fine after that. I try to step in before the situation escalates if I see it headed that way, by redirecting them away from whatever is causing the over arousal. Usually it's our front window and there's something outside. My rule for the front window is you can look all you want, you can give a couple alert barks, but once I come check it out and say "that's enough" it's over. Anything other than quiet watching beyond that point gets them removed from the window.
> 
> I do watch 3 of them more closely than I did just Luke and Zoey, because I know that Zoey will always back off from Luke. But Skye's can be a little jerk at times and what I don't want happening is one dog correcting another and then the third feeling like they need to add their opinion as well. So any signs of over arousal are redirected much faster now and the 3 of them are not loose together unless supervised.


Thanks all. Glad to know it's not uncommon. It looks like it's mostly just controlled by management. He definitely didn't chase her after he snarled. I agree that it's much better for her to run off than to retaliate, I'm sure it would have been a full blown fight is she had. We have an appointment with the behaviorist in may so I'll bring it up there as well to see what she thinks about it.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

continue to be the calming force for the situation... dogs have to learn with experience to come out of escalation. Since Ryker is showing good restraint not making contact in his escalation I would continue to help him move away and out of the event calmly that it's over and forgotten... 
punishment can only teach to react more intense and keep the escalation going even after the event is over. If you can see the situation that triggers it and distract in another direction before it gets there that is what I would work towards doing. Main thing is to try not to make it worse by the way you handle it. I do feel it's normal for dogs to get scrappy to set boundaries for themselves (it builds confidence and stability that they can set boundaries for themselves), also feel good about the individual when they refrain from doing physical harm.. when they handle themselves with in reason in the way they do it..


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> continue to be the calming force for the situation... dogs have to learn with experience to come out of escalation. Since Ryker is showing good restraint not making contact in his escalation I would continue to help him move away and out of the event calmly that it's over and forgotten...
> punishment can only teach to react more intense and keep the escalation going even after the event is over. If you can see the situation that triggers it and distract in another direction before it gets there that is what I would work towards doing. Main thing is to try not to make it worse by the way you handle it. I do feel it's normal for dogs to get scrappy to set boundaries for themselves (it builds confidence and stability that they can set boundaries for themselves), also feel good about the individual when they refrain from doing physical harm.. when they handle themselves with in reason in the way they do it..


 Thanks for the advice. I will be paying closer attention to what causes one or the other to become aroused and try to intervene before anything happens again.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

do you have any strong words ( I call them emergency words)... something as simple as "cookie" that gets everyone to look at you in an instant... then all you need to do is follow through with a cookie... I don't carry treats with me, it's always coming back inside the house to the kitchen to get it... it's true in this situation that dogs live moment to moment to forget they were just escalating into a scuffle standing their ground growling at each other, to happily follow you side by side to get a cookie... if you don't have an emergency word then you can make one buy always following through with the high reward while the dogs are not anything, or they are playing nicely and you want to practice the instant distraction and getting them moving...


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> do you have any strong words ( I call them emergency words)... something as simple as "cookie" that gets everyone to look at you in an instant... then all you need to do is follow through with a cookie... I don't carry treats with me, it's always coming back inside the house to the kitchen to get it... it's true in this situation that dogs live moment to moment to forget they were just escalating into a scuffle standing their ground growling at each other, to happily follow you side by side to get a cookie... if you don't have an emergency word then you can make one buy always following through with the high reward while the dogs are not anything, or they are playing nicely and you want to practice the instant distraction and getting them moving...


Yes Gypsy responds to "cookie" but Ryker doesn't care about food. I can call Gypsy away easily.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

jade5280 said:


> Yes Gypsy responds to "cookie" but Ryker doesn't care about food. I can call Gypsy away easily.


That works perfect  takes two to tango and being able to get Gypsy out of harms way before she knows it definitely is good advantage.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

My girls do this all the time but with less intensity. Anytime they are over stimulated, they redirect on each other. It's in the form of growling though and never escalates. It's usually jewel who initiates it and Jazz just puts up with it. I can usually interrupt with a clap or ask for a sit and reward them. I wouldn't be too worried about this behaviour.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

d_ray said:


> My girls do this all the time but with less intensity. Anytime they are over stimulated, they redirect on each other. It's in the form of growling though and never escalates. It's usually jewel who initiates it and Jazz just puts up with it. I can usually interrupt with a clap or ask for a sit and reward them. I wouldn't be too worried about this behaviour.


Thanks. It was the first time that he had done that and it worried me. It definitely makes me think twice about adding another dog. I'm not sure how good my management skills are and I can only imagine how fast something like this could get out of control with a 3rd dog in the mix.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

How fast it can get out of control is why my dogs aren't ever allowed access to each other when no one's home - ie: crates and separate rooms.

That said, the management end of it isn't bad. The only reason I'm as cautious is that I'm aware it COULD go wrong, but mostly because Bug is deaf and clueless and doesn't always back off when she should. Otherwise, as long as the dog being told to back off it isn't really much of a thing. Call the dog, distract them, whatever and it's done.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I think it could depend on the dogs too. Ryker can be a total jerk sometimes and I couldn't imagine the chaos if we got another dog that was similar in temperament to him.

Do you think he would be different if he wasn't raised as an 'only child'? like maybe...he would have learned to share better or have more tolerance if he grew up with another dog in the house?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

jade5280 said:


> Do you think he would be different if he wasn't raised as an 'only child'? like maybe...he would have learned to share better or have more tolerance if he grew up with another dog in the house?


Not really? I mean maybe it makes a difference for some dogs but it's awful hard to pin down since you don't know how that individual dog would be in a circumstance it wasn't raised in, you know? Like you can only raise them once and there's only one of them, too.

I WILL say that I'd find a multi-dog household where one dog never told another to back off/corrected another dog to be an anomaly, regardless of how many dogs or other animals those dogs were raised with. I don't even count that kind of thing as a scuffle. Mine get along REALLY well, but the only dog I can say has never corrected-slash-growled and airsnapped at one of the other dogs is Jack, and Jack is so passive it's ridiculous. ...and thinking about it, even he told Frost off once or twice when Frost was here. Kylie is the MOST inclined to it, because she just does not wake up well/is a grump when she's sleeping and disturbed. 

It's not like a daily thing. I wouldn't even call it a monthly thing. 

But "Get away from me (my toy, my food, my spot on the bed, just out of my face because I'm cranky right now)" is a thing that happens.


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## kadylady (Sep 23, 2010)

Zoey finally snapped at Skye last night when Skye kept pestering her....and we immediately praised the heck out of her!! Skye is a pest and can be a little bit of a jerk and I've been waiting for the other 2 to tell her to knock it the heck off and they finally are. Honestly, it's so much easier and so much more understood if they tell her than if I try to tell her. Zoey snapped/growled once and Skye didn't bother her again. If they don't tell her, I have to pull her off them repeatedly and end up giving her a time out or something to get her to stop being a jerk. 

The important thing is that it's a one and done deal. Snap and done. Problems occur when the snapper doesn't quit or when the snappee snaps back. If that's not happening then I think you're okay.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Ryker attacked Gypsy this morning. He was laying in bed with me and Gypsy was in the other room and she barked and ran after the cat and Ryker jumped out of bed and ran after Gypsy and attacked her. It lasted for a good couple minutes. He made her ears bleed. I'm not sure what to do anymore. I don't know why this is happening all of a sudden.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I'm assuming that it has something to do with him maturing since he's at that age. It's frighting though, because it seems to be sudden and unpredictable outbursts. The rest of the time they are perfectly fine together. We won't be able to meet with the behaviorist until the end of May.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

The good news is, it really isn't unpredictable and it's still related to his arousal level. Dog goes running by chasing a cat, hound gets worked up and goes after her? Not unpredictable. Unprescedented, frustrating, scary, and something I'd suggest you see a behaviorist about? Yeah. Especially with blood drawn. But it's not out of nowhere.

And it probably *is* related to his age, at least on some level.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> The good news is, it really isn't unpredictable and it's still related to his arousal level. Dog goes running by chasing a cat, hound gets worked up and goes after her? Not unpredictable. Unprescedented, frustrating, scary, and something I'd suggest you see a behaviorist about? Yeah. Especially with blood drawn. But it's not out of nowhere.
> 
> And it probably *is* related to his age, at least on some level.


I guess you're right. I did some reading and a lot of sites suggest not to treat them as equals. I don't know if that's correct or more of that dominance theory crap. They say to feed the dominant dog first, etc. We always feed Gypsy first because she loves eating and Ryker usually won't eat his food until later.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Dominance theory crap. Dogs don't pack the way wolves do, anyway, so it's kind of useless. He's just getting overstimulated and redirecting. If it were my dog (and in some ways it's Molly because she flies over threshold at the drop of a hat if there's a lot of fast movement, though she never CONNECTS) I'd be working more on leave it and doggy zen type exercises. The behaviorist may have better ideas for you, neutering MIGHT help take the edge off, and I'd definitely not leave them unsupervised with access to each other, but keep breathing.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Yes I'm definitely going to have to keep them separated more often. They have never gotten into a fight outside, even when they are running up and down the fence and barking at the neighbors dogs. I think i'm going to have him neutered regardless. I don't have much faith that it will make any difference. I guess we'll wait and see what the behaviorist recommends.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Also interesting statistic that I found, 

"Aggression may not be their only problem since 50% of the pairs of dogs involved in conflicts had at least one member with noticeable separation anxiety, and 30% had phobias, fearfulness, and other forms of anxiety."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...aggression-between-dogs-in-the-same-household

I would consider SA as a form of over arousal as well.

This is just really sucky. Right now they are cuddling and licking each other.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

I'm so sorry you are going through this. It's scary. Ours have only gotten into one full on fight and it terrified me. I'm curious to see what the behaviourist has to say. 

Jewel is very similar to ryker but she never lets it get passed a growl or bark. 

Hugs I hope you find some answers soon.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

d_ray said:


> I'm so sorry you are going through this. It's scary. Ours have only gotten into one full on fight and it terrified me. I'm curious to see what the behaviourist has to say.
> 
> Jewel is very similar to ryker but she never lets it get passed a growl or bark.
> 
> Hugs I hope you find some answers soon.


Thanks. I'm hoping that it can be resolved. I really wouldn't want to deal with a lifetime of crate and rotate or giving Gypsy up.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

After re evaluating what happened, I don't think he deliberately jumped out of bed to chase her down and attack her. I think he heard the commotion, jumped up to go see what was going on. Both dogs were over aroused and in close contact, he lashed out at her like before. Except I think this time, Gypsy was worked up so she probably snapped back at him which caused the fight to be much worse than the other time. Still very worrisome, but at least like CptJack said, is predictable. I can't expect Gypsy to not try and fight back ever, something definitely needs to be done. 

This is a completely new behavior. He recently had blood work done because he's on the prozac so we're waiting back for those result. They are testing his thyroid and everything so at least we can rule health issues out. Until we can meet with the behaviorist they will both have to be on lockdown.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

jade5280 said:


> Also interesting statistic that I found,
> 
> "Aggression may not be their only problem since 50% of the pairs of dogs involved in conflicts had at least one member with noticeable separation anxiety, and 30% had phobias, fearfulness, and other forms of anxiety."
> https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...aggression-between-dogs-in-the-same-household
> ...


I do tend towards this ^^^^^^
Having a larger group of dogs for many years, it's the solid temperament confident dogs that don't go looking for fights especially over petty things , and have a higher tolerance towards others. They have nothing to prove, nothing to gain, and no threat of loss


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## K9 3X (Apr 17, 2015)

jade5280,

Only read your original post, so forgive me if you have answered this already; is Ryker your SO's "favorite" and vice versa ?


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

K9 3X said:


> jade5280,
> 
> Only read your original post, so forgive me if you have answered this already; is Ryker your SO's "favorite" and vice versa ?


Yes I would say he is the favorite because he has been with us longer. I try to give equal attention to both dogs.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

jade5280 said:


> I think it could depend on the dogs too. Ryker can be a total jerk sometimes and I couldn't imagine the chaos if we got another dog that was similar in temperament to him.
> 
> Do you think he would be different if he wasn't raised as an 'only child'? like maybe...he would have learned to share better or have more tolerance if he grew up with another dog in the house?


Lincoln is a jerk with Josefina, always pestering her and such, and she puts up with it. I dont interfere unless I absolutely have to, its her job to tell him off, not mine, he's bothering her not me LOL.The other dogs, he gives space to because they have snarked at him before. But he knows she will let him get away with it so he pesters her. What sucks is that it would take minimal effort on her part to get him to stop, he is very good about listening to other dogs corrections, but she just ... doesnt.

Because if this they are NEVER out without supervision, or when we arent here. 

When she DOES fight back, are they able to still resolve the issue? because Josefina and Buddy, one of my parents dogs have little scraps all the time, but they always resolve it.

Lincoln's antics are just puppy stuff, but for a dog like Ryker, (Josefina was a lot like him as a young dog) who is simply just being a jerk, when I see it coming, I would give a loud "HEY!", then call the other dog to me. There is also the option of tethering, either to something sturdy, or let him drag a leash around so you can remove him if he starts getting worked up.


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## K9 3X (Apr 17, 2015)

jade5280 said:


> Yes I would say he is the favorite because he has been with us longer. I try to give equal attention to both dogs.


I had an idea in mind but when I read a few more replies and your posts and found that the dog is on Prozac it changed my original thoughts. Any correlation between the Prozac and new behavior ?


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> When she DOES fight back, are they able to still resolve the issue? because Josefina and Buddy, one of my parents dogs have little scraps all the time, but they always resolve it.
> 
> Lincoln's antics are just puppy stuff, but for a dog like Ryker, (Josefina was a lot like him as a young dog) who is simply just being a jerk, when I see it coming, I would give a loud "HEY!", then call the other dog to me. There is also the option of tethering, either to something sturdy, or let him drag a leash around so you can remove him if he starts getting worked up.


Gypsy very rarely fights back, if she does she just yells at him. I've never seen her growl. She will mostly just try to run away from him. He's a bully and I need to tell him to 'leave it' a lot when he's bothering her. If he doesn't then I separate them. Right now we are keeping them separate when we're not home and when we are he is dragging a leash. So far we haven't had another incident, but I think that's just because I have been very closely managing them and keeping them out of each others way.



K9 3X said:


> I had an idea in mind but when I read a few more replies and your posts and found that the dog is on Prozac it changed my original thoughts. Any correlation between the Prozac and new behavior ?


No unfortunately he has been on the Prozac for I think 8 or 9 months now. I wish it was related to the medication then it would be an easier fix haha. Just in the past few weeks this behavior has started. Nothing else has changed around the house. The only thing I can think of is he's going through a maturity phase and maybe he's feeling insecure? He's a few months away from turning 2 and coonhounds don't fully mature until around 2 years old.


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## K9 3X (Apr 17, 2015)

jade5280 said:


> No unfortunately he has been on the Prozac for I think 8 or 9 months now. I wish it was related to the medication then it would be an easier fix haha. Just in the past few weeks this behavior has started. Nothing else has changed around the house. The only thing I can think of is he's going through a maturity phase and maybe he's feeling insecure? He's a few months away from turning 2 and coonhounds don't fully mature until around 2 years old.



I wish I could offer some help but do agree with your maturity idea as a possible reason, it's worth exploring. FWIW, many problems I have encountered with GSDs which mature at about the same age and probably many other breeds when it comes to infighting and testing their surroundings ( human and peers ) can be modified. I know "dominance theories" are frowned upon in here but there are many ways to skin a cat as they say. Upping the obedience and expectations of dogs which might be sparring for position is a very win/win path to take. Peaceful existence amongst a pack is the goal obviously and when your leadership role is better defined by enhanced obedience training and a dog's adherence, all positions within a pack are better established and infighting diminishes due to strong leadership. I have rarely if ever seen a downside to boosting the obedience skills of animals, by nature it creates order. Personally, I am a bit of a critic when it comes to my pushy bitch's attitude when it comes to other dogs and would not tolerate her attempts to dominate other dogs which regularly come over to visit. Many of the owners would say " oh, it's okay they are just being dogs and will sort it out". Sorry, that doesn't work for me because it leads to much more problematic behaviors down the road if left unchecked, doesn't matter which side of the equation the dog is on. I step in and enforce through training. Acceptable behavior and command and control is accomplished through additional training and obedience because of the nature of obedience in general. It's tough to train a dog to be "nice" but one can get the same result through additional training as it creates a dynamic where the dog relies on you as it's rightful leader. The beauty of doing it this way is, no harshness is required and through the additional training and obedience, the dogs get more human engagement and order in their lives while you get the dogs peaceful coexistence. It is easier said than done but the bottom line is, it takes commitment and effort on your behalf but your time spent will be rewarded.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

How have things been going? Any more issues?


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

K9 3X said:


> I wish I could offer some help but do agree with your maturity idea as a possible reason, it's worth exploring. FWIW, many problems I have encountered with GSDs which mature at about the same age and probably many other breeds when it comes to infighting and testing their surroundings ( human and peers ) can be modified. I know "dominance theories" are frowned upon in here but there are many ways to skin a cat as they say. Upping the obedience and expectations of dogs which might be sparring for position is a very win/win path to take. Peaceful existence amongst a pack is the goal obviously and when your leadership role is better defined by enhanced obedience training and a dog's adherence, all positions within a pack are better established and infighting diminishes due to strong leadership. I have rarely if ever seen a downside to boosting the obedience skills of animals, by nature it creates order. Personally, I am a bit of a critic when it comes to my pushy bitch's attitude when it comes to other dogs and would not tolerate her attempts to dominate other dogs which regularly come over to visit. Many of the owners would say " oh, it's okay they are just being dogs and will sort it out". Sorry, that doesn't work for me because it leads to much more problematic behaviors down the road if left unchecked, doesn't matter which side of the equation the dog is on. I step in and enforce through training. Acceptable behavior and command and control is accomplished through additional training and obedience because of the nature of obedience in general. It's tough to train a dog to be "nice" but one can get the same result through additional training as it creates a dynamic where the dog relies on you as it's rightful leader. The beauty of doing it this way is, no harshness is required and through the additional training and obedience, the dogs get more human engagement and order in their lives while you get the dogs peaceful coexistence. It is easier said than done but the bottom line is, it takes commitment and effort on your behalf but your time spent will be rewarded.


Thanks for your input. I have been much more 'strict' in not allowing inappropriate behavior. Every where I read it says not to discourage growling, but I don't see how I can NOT do anything about it. At times he seems to stalk her and his hackles will raise and he will growl at her. I think he may be guarding me in this circumstances, but I'm still not sure. It happens rarely and I will body block him and tell him to leave it. If he does not then I will make him go to his 'place' 



d_ray said:


> How have things been going? Any more issues?


We haven't had any more fights so that's good. He will sometimes growl at her on occasion, which I'm still trying to figure out the cause for. This never turns into more than a low growl and then Gypsy will run off. I'm still not sure if neutering him would have any benefit. I've read that neutering can make an insecure dog even more insecure and I definitely want to avoid that. I'm going wait to get the behaviorists opinion before I make a decision on that.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

jade5280 said:


> Thanks for your input. I have been much more 'strict' in not allowing inappropriate behavior. Every where I read it says not to discourage growling, but I don't see how I can NOT do anything about it. At times he seems to stalk her and his hackles will raise and he will growl at her. I think he may be guarding me in this circumstances, but I'm still not sure. It happens rarely and I will body block him and tell him to leave it. If he does not then I will make him go to his 'place'
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't had any more fights so that's good. He will sometimes growl at her on occasion, which I'm still trying to figure out the cause for. This never turns into more than a low growl and then Gypsy will run off. I'm still not sure if neutering him would have any benefit. I've read that neutering can make an insecure dog even more insecure and I definitely want to avoid that. I'm going wait to get the behaviorists opinion before I make a decision on that.


Glad to hear that there haven't been anymore incidents. They seem to have a very similar relationship as Jewel and Jazz. Jazz is reactive and also chases the cats sometimes. Every time Jazz reacts to something, Jewel growls and nips at her. This has been going on since day 1 though and looks more like rough play. I'm curious to hear what the behaviourist says.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

We haven't had anymore fights. Ryker's 'edge' seems to have lessened. He doesn't seem as guardy with things with her anymore. I'm not sure what changed and why his behavior escalated so suddenly like that. I still make sure they don't get in each others way and that they never stand at the door together when someone is outside. We will be seeing the behaviorist this Saturday to get her input.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

am happy for the good update... sometimes they just mature through situations,, they learn other things.... and move on to what is more rewarding... good job for staying on top of it for both of them...


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> am happy for the good update... sometimes they just mature through situations,, they learn other things.... and move on to what is more rewarding... good job for staying on top of it for both of them...


 Thanks. I'm definitely not going to let my guard down either way. They still like each other so I'm glad I don't have to crate and rotate.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

jade5280 said:


> We haven't had anymore fights. Ryker's 'edge' seems to have lessened. He doesn't seem as guardy with things with her anymore. I'm not sure what changed and why his behavior escalated so suddenly like that. I still make sure they don't get in each others way and that they never stand at the door together when someone is outside. We will be seeing the behaviorist this Saturday to get her input.


Thanks for the update (I've been wondering how things were going). Glad you haven't had any additional incidents.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

I'll let you guys know what the behaviorist says since some of you are also dealing with similar issues, but to a lesser extent.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

The behaviorist said that his aggression is most likely a combination of resource guarding and redirection during stressful situations. She said the doorways are often a source of guarding for some dogs, which makes sense since that is were the fights happened. She also said that the fact that he is maturing and has a lot of hormones and testosterone probably plays a big role in his behavior. She highly recommended having him neutered and that it may solve a lot of the problems, though it's obviously not a 100% fix because he may still act out even after neutered. She said at the very least, neutering will probably 'soften' him a bit. 

And that we should continue to maintain structure and management during a daily basis like we have been. If a fight does happen, to use an air horn to break them up and separate them for a short period of time to cool down.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

Going to update since things have changed. Since we got Ryker neutered there hasn't been a fight or even a growl directed towards Gypsy. His resource guarding has almost been eliminated completely with dogs and people (I say almost because I still wouldn't throw a steak in between the 2 and expect him not to fight over it). He's also less possessive of things. Before if Gypsy was chewing on a hoof he would stare at her until she walked away and then he would take it. Now they can be in the same room with her chewing on something and he won't even bother with it.

It hasn't seemed to effect his SA at all though. He still gets very anxious, not sure if that will change with more time...

I never thought I would be pro neuter, but in some situations I would say it's definitely beneficial.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

jade5280 said:


> Going to update since things have changed. Since we got Ryker neutered there hasn't been a fight or even a growl directed towards Gypsy. His resource guarding has almost been eliminated completely with dogs and people (I say almost because I still wouldn't throw a steak in between the 2 and expect him not to fight over it). He's also less possessive of things. Before if Gypsy was chewing on a hoof he would stare at her until she walked away and then he would take it. Now they can be in the same room with her chewing on something and he won't even bother with it.
> 
> It hasn't seemed to effect his SA at all though. He still gets very anxious, not sure if that will change with more time...
> 
> I never thought I would be pro neuter, but in some situations I would say it's definitely beneficial.


Glad you're seeing some positive results! Hope you see some improvement with his SA in time. 

Too bad I can't neuter Katie.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Glad you're seeing some positive results! Hope you see some improvement with his SA in time.
> 
> Too bad I can't neuter Katie.


Hehe aw Katie! His change in behavior could be a total coincidence and unrelated to the neuter, but I guess there's really no way to know for sure.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

jade5280 said:


> Hehe aw Katie! His change in behavior could be a total coincidence and unrelated to the neuter, but I guess there's really no way to know for sure.


That's the hard thing - what really caused the change? On Saturday, I dosed Tyson with Rescue Remedy before nose work class. Two people commented (and others agreed) that he seemed much calmer and more comfortable during class. Was it the RR? Leftover full moon energy? Something else? At least with that, I can sort of test it; still there is no way to control all the variables.


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## jade5280 (Feb 20, 2013)

cookieface said:


> That's the hard thing - what really caused the change? On Saturday, I dosed Tyson with Rescue Remedy before nose work class. Two people commented (and others agreed) that he seemed much calmer and more comfortable during class. Was it the RR? Leftover full moon energy? Something else? At least with that, I can sort of test it; still there is no way to control all the variables.


 That's how I felt when trying different things for SA. Like RR and other OTC calming supplements. It's so hard to tell if something is actually working when the changes can be so subtle. Or maybe the dog was just tired or having a 'good day' and it was totally unrelated to anything else.


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