# Biting Bichon What to do?



## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

I wanted to post some information about what is going on with a dog I am pet sitting to see if any one has a better answer than putting the dog to sleep because in a couple of days that was the decision made but if I can offer them better advice I would love to hear some.

The dog is a 2 yr old Bichon Frise bought from a backyard breeder. In its 2 yrs it has gone after more than 20 people and has bitten several including my husband. The dog will be fine and then out of the blue it just goes nuts and bites someone. I have had the dog in my home for about 3 weeks and it just loves me. I can not let it have free run of the home because of the biting. I was not aware of this when I agreed to pet sit him.

They have tried prozac and also a few different trainers. They have asked me to bring the dog in and have him euthanized. They are very nice people and can not bear to bring him in. THey are very upset and wish they had another solution. They have children that the dog tries to bite too.

Is there anywhere for this dog to go? Is there any other way?

Please do not try to knock the owners as they really are torn up about this and have really tried with this dog. I would just like to hear if there is another answer other than putting him down.

Thanks


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

It sounds like they never taught it to stop biting when it was a puppy. See if this helps, http://www.dogforums.com/19-first-time-dog-owner/8377-bite-stops-here.html

When it bites to hard let out a loud ouch and then stop playing with it. But it sounds serious. If doing what is discussed in the article doesn't work you may have to use a shock collar and when it goes to bite, shock it.


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## applesmom (Jun 9, 2007)

Have they had the dog checked thoroughly by a vet including thryroid function?



> Another interesting association which as been increasing in frequency is the link between thyroid dysfunction and aberrant behavior. Typical clinical signs include unprovoked aggression towards other animals and/or people, sudden onset of a seizure disorder in adulthood, disorientation, moodiness, erratic temperament, periods of hyperactivity, hypo-attentiveness, depression, fearfulness and phobias, anxiety, submissiveness, passivity, compulsiveness, and irritability. After the episodes, a majority of the animals were noted to behave as if they were coming out of a trance- like state and were unaware of their previous behavior.


 http://siriusdog.com/articles/behavior-thyroid-dysfunction-dodds.htm

Does the dog give any clues through body language before it attacks and is it a one time snapping incident each time or is it an all out attack?

Here's another link that might provide some insights.

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/medical-causes-of-aggression-in-dogs/page1.aspx

I wouldn't even consider putting the dog down until all medical possibilities have been ruled out.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

The dog will be walking around all normall acting fine than suddenly dart and attack. He bites really hard and draws blood and will not stop unless someone who he likes stops him. 

He attacked my husband so quick and unexpected and bit him 3 times before I could grab him. My husband had already met the dog and pet him and all was fine. WHen he attacked my husband my husband was just standing there reading a piece of mail on the other side of the room.

He bit into my husbands tendon on the one leg and drew blood on his hand and other leg.

He has been thourouly checked by a vet. He bit a couple of trainers unexpectedly too. It is like he suddenly snaps.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

I feel terrible for the owners but I feel that putting him down would be the best thing. If he was a large dog he would of been gone already, it is very sad but you would have to find a single owner that has no kids or that come over and who ever gets the dog is looking at law suits.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Jen D said:


> I feel terrible for the owners but I feel that putting him down would be the best thing. If he was a large dog he would of been gone already, it is very sad but you would have to find a single owner that has no kids or that come over and who ever gets the dog is looking at law suits.


Yes, unfortunately that was my thought too. Sad because he is such a cute little dog and so sweet when he likes someone . But I have talked with his vet and my vet and went round and round different opitons with his owners and really we have found no other way. 

The only thing that makes me feel ok about the situation is that I really believe there is another better life after this one even for dogs and the owners really seemed to try thier best with him.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

peace36 said:


> Yes, unfortunately that was my thought too. Sad because he is such a cute little dog and so sweet when he likes someone . But I have talked with his vet and my vet and went round and round different opitons with his owners and really we have found no other way.
> 
> The only thing that makes me feel ok about the situation is that I really believe there is another better life after this one even for dogs and the owners really seemed to try thier best with him.


You also have to remember you gave it a good shot and that is more then most people would do!


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Jen D said:


> You also have to remember you gave it a good shot and that is more then most people would do!


Thanks 

The truth is I had no idea the dog had this kind of problem when I agreed to watch him. I am glad he came though but have learned to be more careful in the future.


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## Orange County Ca (Apr 6, 2007)

I have a Bishon/Beagle mix and the previous owner and I both had that problem with him. I still do.
We use a muzzle until he knows a person well enough to be trusted. Normally about 4 visits.
If you or the owner wants to keep him I'd try the shock collar.
Like any dog you can never trust them completely and this one even less so.
I thought I had the only Bishon that bit. I was told it was the Beagle in mine as they're very territorial and this one is.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

This lady I know has a bichon and its the nicest dog ever. It didn't even know me when I came over and it was all happy and jumping. lol


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Orange County Ca said:


> If you or the owner wants to keep him I'd try the shock collar.
> 
> I am not judging this, I am just asking a question. How do you use a shock collar in this situation? Wouldn't shocking the dog when it goes by people actually make it more vicious? If you were going to zap it right before it bit the dog would have to be giving off some hint that it was about to strike. I think ones timing would have to be perfect. I am just curious.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

You shock it as its lunging or when its starting to bite.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

(improperly used shock collars)

There's no place for shock collars in counter conditioning.


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## Durbkat (Jun 26, 2007)

How is it improper use? Wouldn't shocking it when its about to bite or when its biting tell it that it will experience something unpleasant.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Durbkat said:


> it will experience something unpleasant.


Absolutely! However, what you can't predict or shape is what the dog will make of the shock at the time it's given. He's just as likely to aggress further as he is to become emotionally damaged. If your timing is right (with 99% of handlers it's not), and if the shock is effective the first time (again, unlikely) it can be very effective. However, to recommend a shock collar in this situation is simply irresponsible. I don't know any other way to put it. It takes specialized training to use a shock collar effectively, and I know of zero that would use a chock collar in a case like this. And the specialized training starts with a certified trainer being in the presence of the dog and handler. This can't be achieved on a dog forum. Therefore, I think it's unwise to recommend anything more than seeking a certified trainer when it comes to shock collars.

IMO, this dog needs to taught *how to bite*, not how *not to bite*. And since this dog's history is largely unknown, and we can't see the behavior, I think a behaviorist should be brought in. Not a trainer, and especially not a vet.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Thank you CP, you're exactly right. I really don't think anyone should ever recommend shock collars to pet owners. If it were to be used at all, it should be only in the hands of a behaviorist. In this specific case, if the dog is telegraphing it's intent to bite enough to trigger someone to use the shock collar, then it's telegraphing enough to prevent the behavior with a leash. 

The OP said that the dog had been vet checked, but didn't indicate what kind of tests had been run. Someone suggested thyroid function, but did the vet check that? 

My suggestion would be to bring in a behaviorist and in conjunction with the vet, try to ascertain what is setting this dog off. This is not a common problem with this breed. 

I'd also suggest that for the sake of the people around this dog, that the OP go back to crate training, and leashing the dog to you when not in the crate. Until retrained, the dog should not have the freedom to bite people - and I definitely wouldn't recommend the dog go back to it's owners, because if they didn't tell you the problem, they are unlikely to tell the next person and that puts both the dog and people in danger.

Have you contacted Bichon rescue?


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

I would think that this dog would have to be giving some sort of indication that he is going to bite. However, with it happening so fast it would be hard to see the body language. Eddie has a tendency to chase cats and I know right before he's going to take off after one. He gets very still and its just something with the way he holds himself that I can tell he's going bolt. I don't think that a person who didn't know him would recognize what his body language was saying. But with this dog reacting so fast with a bite, I would think that a behaviorist would be able to stay calm and collected enough to recognize the body language and maybe intervene in time to correct it. Eddie chasing cats isn't as serious, but I know that if I can break his focus on the cat and get him to focus on me with a sit/stay, then the cat can safely move on. If he's really intent on the cat, then I have a hand held thing that makes a really loud beep to get his attention. However, I don't think that he can ever be safely in the presence of a cat unsupervised in the future. 

IMO a muzzle and a behaviorist are in order. 

Also, I don't think that shock collar should be used by just anyone. People tend to become "shock happy" with those. Also, who knows how the dog would react, become even more aggressive?

Good luck with this dog and I know that if the dog is put down, the decision won't be made lightly.


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## Amaya-Mazie-Marley (Apr 15, 2007)

I hate to say this but I think that if the dog has been tested for everything, there is nothing wrong, and its biting like that it should be put down. Its gone after 20 people including kids and your husband who was just reading a piece of mail. That indicates a psychological problem to me and it shouldn't be handled lightly. My only concern is that you would go out and spend alot of money on a behaviorist for this dog and in the end it would be put down anyways. You also said he is nice to people that he meets and likes. You went on to say that when your husband met the dog he was sweet and friendly, but yet he attacked your husband. Again another reason for thinking some sort of brain problem. I would never suggest a shock collar much less euthenasia but in this case I do reccomend the dog be put down. I don't look down on the owners at all. This dog came from a BYB and was obviously poorly bred and has problems. Sure they could have bought from a reputable breeder but they had no way of knowing.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

It might not be a popular opinion, but I believe a violently aggressive dog should be euthanized. There's sooooooooo many well-adjusted, nice dogs dying every single day, just because there's not enough homes. It's not a pleasant thing to do. It's emotionally painful for everyone involved, from the owners right up to the vet & techs who're there when the injections are given. But it's a matter of public safety.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

peace36 said:


> Thanks
> 
> The truth is I had no idea the dog had this kind of problem when I agreed to watch him. I am glad he came though but have learned to be more careful in the future.


I have had a lot of surprises like that and a lot of them turned out very sad, I am working with a little Yorkie now and I call him Cujo! he is fast but you can predict what he is going to do next. He is also very young and spoiled but the people are working hard on him with some advise so I think he will work out.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Lorina said:


> It might not be a popular opinion, but I believe a violently aggressive dog should be euthanized. There's sooooooooo many well-adjusted, nice dogs dying every single day, just because there's not enough homes. It's not a pleasant thing to do. It's emotionally painful for everyone involved, from the owners right up to the vet & techs who're there when the injections are given. But it's a matter of public safety.



I agree with you. And I agree with the person who said that if it were a large dog it would probably be gone already. From the origional post, it sounds like they've tried alot of things and there may not be anything else that can be done.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

I am not sure what tests have been done on this dog. It does sound to me like they have done everything they could do to try to solve this problem. It is very hard to tell when the dog will decide to bite and like I may have mentioned it does not just bite it is actually attacking he does not want to stop. He ran across the room and went after my husband and bit him so fast before I could stop him. My husband of course could have kicked the crap out of the dog being that he is a small dog but he is a good man so he grabbed a chair and held it out to block him and I was able to get him then.

Anyway the owners asked me to take him to be euthanized today. It was very sad. I held his head in my hands and my daughter rubbed his back as they put him to sleep.  

I was suprised at my reaction I actually started crying. I have only had him with me for three weeks but I guess I was more attached to him than I realized. The little dog actually seemed to love me and from what I could tell was pretty fond of my daughter but I did not take the chance of having her get close to him so she just always threw him treats and talked to him.


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

My condolences to you and the dog's owners. This sounds like it was a very tough situation and the decision by the owners to have him put to sleep was a painful one.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Mdawn said:


> My condolences to you and the dog's owners. This sounds like it was a very tough situation and the decision by the owners to have him put to sleep was a painful one.


Thank You.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

peace36 said:


> I am not sure what tests have been done on this dog. It does sound to me like they have done everything they could do to try to solve this problem.


I understand that it's too late now to help this dog, but I can't help wondering about the two sentences above. If you don't know what tests were run, then how can you know that the owners did everything the could to solve the problem? 

Did anyone contact Bichon rescue? Was the dog ever evaluated by a behaviorist? If not, then let's be honest and say that this was a quick fix for a dog that no one thought was valuable enough to spend money on in order to solve the problem.

This poor dog had the deck stacked against him from the beginning. I hope you advised them not to get another dog.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

DogAdvocat said:


> I understand that it's too late now to help this dog, but I can't help wondering about the two sentences above. If you don't know what tests were run, then how can you know that the owners did everything the could to solve the problem?
> 
> Did anyone contact Bichon rescue? Was the dog ever evaluated by a behaviorist? If not, then let's be honest and say that this was a quick fix for a dog that no one thought was valuable enough to spend money on in order to solve the problem.
> 
> This poor dog had the deck stacked against him from the beginning. I hope you advised them not to get another dog.


This dog has had this biting problem all along. He is 2 1/2 yrs old. I know the vet even prescribed prozac for him and that did not do anything.

I know they had 3 different trainers and I can not say for sure if they were all trainers or if any were behavioralist. I know with one of the trainers during the 4th session when he seemed to be doing really good he suddenly bit/attacked the trainer. I also had a friend who obeidence trains dogs come to see what he thought and he had the dog with him for about an hour walking him and getting to know him and when he thought all was well the same thing happened out of the blue the dog went after him and before he could stop him he got a pretty good bite on the leg.

I do not know about the Bichon Rescue.

No I did not advise them not to get another dog. I do not think any of this is their fault and I believe they did all they could to stop this problem.

As far as I know no rescue would take a biting dog.

For future reference though do you know of any rescues that will accept a biting dog?

This was a very tough decision for them and they were not looking for a "quick fix"

The dog even bit thier own children. Not all the time just occasionally out of the blue he would go after them other times he seem to love them. They are teenagers not small toddlers.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

I can't tell you rescues that will accept a biting dog because each situation is different. Let me give you an example. Years ago I was picking up a dozen dogs at a shelter for transport to another rescue group. While I was waiting for the paperwork to be completed, a woman came in with a Scottish Terrier who she said had bitten her son. She explained that the child was throwing dirt into the air, and the Scottie was jumping up and biting at the dirt, and it was a fine game until the Scottie connected with the child's hand and bit one of his fingers. Now anyone with a lick of sense would realize this was an accident, but this mother decided that she wasn't going to have any dog around that would bite her son. The overworked shelter intake person wrote on the paperwork "BITES." The dog was put into quarantine.

When I got home, I called Scottie rescue and told them the whole story - they put a hold on the dog and got it as soon as it's quarantine period was up.

My point is that the situation and the type/breed of dog can make all the difference in the world as to whether a rescue can take a biting dog or not. With the Bichon, because of it's size, and it's breed, I think there was a good chance that rescue would have at least tried to get more information before deciding whether or not they could take it -- to decide whether or not everything had really been done that could be done. 

I would have liked to know more about the trainers that were used, and what their methods were - as well as when all this started, and what the people's original reactions were. And then of course there are those health tests. Just because they went to a vet doesn't mean that the vet did a full battery of tests.

Please don't think I'm beating you up over this. I just think that people really should try everything before giving up -- and that includes a behaviorist who can evaluate both the dog and the people's interaction with the dog. Did you ever see Brian Kilcommons interactions with "vicious" dogs? I never saw him take on any of the power breeds, but he would evaluate the small dogs to figure out what it was that was setting them off and then fix that problem - which was sometimes the fault of the owner.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

I agree there is a big difference between accidental biting and aggressive biting and different reasons for biting. 

My thought on this dog is that is was from a byb that did not do proper testing on the breeding parents and this dog was maybe too inbred or hand parents with problems. I think that it had something seriously mentally wrong. Now that is just my thought and I do not want to come across like being a "know it all"


It would be nice if some of these people who think all or most all dogs that bite could be trained not to would open a rescue and take in the dogs being euthanized for biting and prove us others wrong by helping these dogs.


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

peace36 said:


> I agree there is a big difference between accidental biting and aggressive biting and different reasons for biting.
> 
> My thought on this dog is that is was from a byb that did not do proper testing on the breeding parents and this dog was maybe too inbred or hand parents with problems. I think that it had something seriously mentally wrong. Now that is just my thought and I do not want to come across like being a "know it all"
> 
> ...


You are so right and what a good idea if the save all people would open a rescue! I think the area hospitals would know them very well.

I think there are a lot of serial killers on death row that could be retrained.


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## Orange County Ca (Apr 6, 2007)

I too can read the body language of my dog. Unless its a cat I can react before he does.
Cats do not deserve to live. At least in his opinion.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Jen D said:


> You are so right and what a good idea if the save all people would open a rescue! I think the area hospitals would know them very well.
> 
> I think there are a lot of serial killers on death row that could be retrained.


LoL! That last thought crossed my mind to


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

peace36 said:


> I agree there is a big difference between accidental biting and aggressive biting and different reasons for biting.
> 
> My thought on this dog is that is was from a byb that did not do proper testing on the breeding parents and this dog was maybe too inbred or hand parents with problems. I think that it had something seriously mentally wrong. Now that is just my thought and I do not want to come across like being a "know it all"
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying, and the sarcasm in this thread hasn't escaped me, and I also understand that you were with the dog and I wasn't, but I've also rescued dogs that were thought to be vicious and rehabbed them successfully. There ARE rescuers who deal with biting dogs - I'm reminded of a puppymill closure in So. Cal where 200 chihuahuas were confiscated and deemed to be unadoptable because they couldn't pass the temperament tests. Rescuers ended up taking the shelter to court for a judgment allowing the rescuers to save these dogs from being euthanized - most of them are now rehabbed and in new homes.

What disturbs me about these situations is that I think it should take more than one person to evaluate a dog for this kind of thing. Most of the people involved with these decisions are people the owners have told their story to, but who don't really have any first hand experience with the dog -- or if they do, it doesn't involve retraining by people that know what they're doing. And of course, people just don't want to take a chance because of possible liability. I just think it's sad that a dog's life is based on people that are not dog savvy or that are more worried about their pocketbook than they are about the dog.

And yes, it is a valid concern that when there are so many dogs dying for lack of homes that are sweet and friendly, why should resources be spent on a dog that has temperament problems -- but the other side of that coin is that why should a dog have to suffer the loss of it's life because society can't control their propensity to overbreed? Would this dog be given more chances if there were fewer available dogs? I think so.

I'm sorry there wasn't more time to deal with this situation. I would have liked to talk to you more about it. I think there may have been other options for him. Especially considering the breed he was.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

DogAdvocat said:


> I understand what you're saying, and the sarcasm in this thread hasn't escaped me, and I also understand that you were with the dog and I wasn't, but I've also rescued dogs that were thought to be vicious and rehabbed them successfully. There ARE rescuers who deal with biting dogs - I'm reminded of a puppymill closure in So. Cal where 200 chihuahuas were confiscated and deemed to be unadoptable because they couldn't pass the temperament tests. Rescuers ended up taking the shelter to court for a judgment allowing the rescuers to save these dogs from being euthanized - most of them are now rehabbed and in new homes.
> 
> What disturbs me about these situations is that I think it should take more than one person to evaluate a dog for this kind of thing. Most of the people involved with these decisions are people the owners have told their story to, but who don't really have any first hand experience with the dog -- or if they do, it doesn't involve retraining by people that know what they're doing. And of course, people just don't want to take a chance because of possible liability. I just think it's sad that a dog's life is based on people that are not dog savvy or that are more worried about their pocketbook than they are about the dog.
> 
> ...


Yes, by the time I posted this I think I only had maybe 3 days before he was to be euthanized to find another answer. I wish I had something more to tell the owners to try. I feel they would have tried if they knew what to do. He did keep saying money was not an issue. In the 3 weeks I had him with me between paying me and the vet bills I think he spent near $600. He just kept saying he wished knew another way and like I said he did seek help from a couple of trainers and the vet I do not know the back round on the trainers or the testing done.

Anyway thanks DogAdvocat for your input.


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