# Dog getting aggressive after being given a timeout.



## doghugger (Nov 23, 2015)

Penny is almost nine months old. She was doing really well with her training until one day I guess she decided there's no good reason why she should obey me. People have told me that this is because she's a "teenager" now.

She is more destructive than ever. When she was a puppy, sure she would chew on furniture and shoes and anything she could get her mouth on, but now it's like every day she gets a new idea of what she can destroy. Never used to have a problem with the walls, now she scratches them until she can scrape some paint off and then starts biting it off. She's started running under my bed and our couches and ripping off cloth from underneath. She destroys anything with stuffing inside, including her bed, which I've had to fix like four times.

She's also just plain disobedient at times. Sometimes she'll do whatever I ask her right away, but other times I have to say the command 30 times until she gets it, or I have to physically make her do what I want.

So I've started putting her in time out whenever she does something wrong. So far I've been mainly doing it for when she does something REALLY out of line, like when she jumps on top of our kitchen table. Our table is an island and the seats can't be pushed inside, so she jumps on the chair and then on the table. We used to be able to keep our mail and some food up there, but not anymore. 

Lately she's been so destructive that I've been doing it for smaller things, like chewing on my shoes. She's destroyed three of my pairs in the last week. It's funny because when she was younger she never showed that much interest in my shoes. Sometimes she would nibble on them but mostly she would ignore them. 

Anyway, the problem is that sometimes when I put her in her crate, she is really aggressive with me when I let her out. She starts growling and barking at me angrily and she tries to bite me too. I see that she shows some restraint with the biting and doesn't go for me as hard as she could, but she still bites me. 

So basically the timeouts make her defy me even more.

The last time she did that when I let her out of the crate, I was going to put her right back in, but there was no way to get her back in with how fast she was and the struggle she was putting up. I had to leave her alone in the room, instead of the crate. She doesn't like being alone, so it's still a punishment but probably not as effective.

Not sure what to do.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

How much exercise is she getting? Often, a bored dog with pent up energy is a destructive dog. Burn off the energy and the destruction level drops.

Using a crate of time outs can work if its a calm process of "Go on in here for a couple minutes until you chill out" but its sounds like the way its going with you, you risk poisoning the crate to her; its turning into a full on punishment rather than a time to take a moment to calm down.

If there is any time lag between her destructing and being put in the crate, she's not going to connect the two together anyway. For example, if she jumps on a chair and then on to a table, if you weren't there to stop her doing that to begin with, then its not likely the timing is tight enough for her to connect the jumping up with going in the crate.



> She's also just plain disobedient at times. Sometimes she'll do whatever I ask her right away, but other times I have to say the command 30 times until she gets it, or I have to physically make her do what I want.


I don't think this is a sign of disobedience. If a dog doesn't obey a command, the first thing to consider is that they don't fully understand it. That it isn't "proofed" well enough. Maybe she knows a command of "leave it" for shoes but doesn't know it for furniture. etc. A 9 month old dog is not likely to have all the major commands solidly proofed in a variety of settings and distractions. 
Repeating a command over and over just burns the command. So instead of "Sit" meaning Sit, it becomes "Sit, Sit, SIT, SIT!" to mean Sit. 
The other part of not obeying a command is not having sufficient motivation. Its far more rewarding to chew on a shoe than it is to not chew on a shoe; until you make it more rewarding to not chew on a shoe.

A big thing is management. Set the dog up for success by putting away clothing, shoes, access to some rooms, etc. The less often a dog gets a chance to destroy something, the less they begin to even think about destroying something.


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## doghugger (Nov 23, 2015)

Shell said:


> How much exercise is she getting? Often, a bored dog with pent up energy is a destructive dog. Burn off the energy and the destruction level drops.


She gets two walks a day, one in the morning and one at night. The morning ones I take her on are usually pretty long. Like 45 minutes-1 hour, the night walks are shorter, about 20 minutes. And then she'll have play sessions with my sister during the day and me when I get home. 

Lately I have been worried about the fact that she's bored. She had destroyed all her toys, so I went out and bought her some new ones, mainly chew toys and also some balls. I don't buy her stuffed animals anymore because she breaks them all and ends up making a huge mess with the cotton. She's been sleeping a lot, which I suspect is due to boredom. She gets tired of her toys fast. I've tried introducing them slowly so she doesn't get tired of them so quickly, but she'll become uninterested in them after a day or two.

As for poisoning the crate, when I first got her I avoided punishing her with the crate at all costs because she was still being potty trained and I didn't want her to have bad associations with it, but she's been sleeping on either her own bed or my bed for a couple of months now, so I stopped caring about whether she saw the crate as a punishment area. 



> If a dog doesn't obey a command, the first thing to consider is that they don't fully understand it. That it isn't "proofed" well enough. Maybe she knows a command of "leave it" for shoes but doesn't know it for furniture. etc. A 9 month old dog is not likely to have all the major commands solidly proofed in a variety of settings and distractions.


With some commands, I definitely see that it's because she still needs practice. The "down" command is one that I've been trying to teach her from the beginning and she still struggles with it. Sometimes she'll do it right away, but a lot of the time she looks at me like she has no idea what I'm saying.

There are other commands that she definitely knows though and seems to be choosing not to do them because she doesn't feel like it. When she was doing well, she had a two or three week period where I would say "off" whenever I caught her on a couch and she would leap off right away. Now sometimes I'll see her lying there comfortably and I'll say the command and she'll just look away like she can't hear me. 

I took her to a six-week basic training course at Petco when I was starting with her, and the trainer was the one who told me that eventually my dog was going to get stubborn and that I would have to prove to her that I'm more stubborn than she is. She told me that if I had to repeat the command over and over until she did it, that's what I had to do, because if I gave up and let her keep doing what she was doing, she would look at it as her "winning" and seeing that she could get her way if she's determined enough.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

It sounds like she needs more management so she can't get to all of those things to chew, especially if she's doing it while you aren't around. When you're home I would confine her to the room you're in (or adjoining rooms where you can see her), or tether her to you. When you're out, I would keep her in a crate or xpen. Don't let her have access to shoes or other small things you can chew. Nothing is left on my floors that isn't a dog toy, and if it is, it's not the puppy's fault if it gets chewed on. They mostly grow out of this type of thing, but if you let her have access to stuff now she's just going to learn how fun it is to chew your stuff. 

It sounds like her crate has become a very negative space for her. Your emotions when you put her in are angry and frustrated, and she knows that. She's probably even fearful of that. You can use a crate as a time out, but it has to be done in a neutral way. Think of it as more of a space for the dog to calm down, than as "time out" where they should think about what they've done (they really don't have the capacity to think about what they've done or why it was wrong). Get some sort of treat or chewy and put her in there.

Stop thinking about it as her "defying" you. She's just doing what she wants to do in that moment, that's what dogs do. Instead, think about showing her what you do want and rewarding for good behavior. Look for the good and find things to reward. If she's lying down chewing on her own toy, praise and reward for that! If she's sitting quietly next to the island and not jumping up on it, reward that! Teach her to settle on a mat and reward any time she goes to it on her own.

Right now it sounds like you're trying to intimidate her into doing what you want and it's either not working, or is making her fearful and aggressive, so you need to change tactics.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I would suggest that even if she is now not sleeping in the crate, that you still don't want to poison the crate. Even if you don't use it on a daily basis, it can be a (literal) lifesaver in emergencies, at the vet's office, or plain old useful for travel in hotels or staying in another person's home, for training classes etc. 

How much mental exercise does she get? Instead of toys, aim for more interactive play with you. Use meals as training sessions, try puzzle toys for feeding instead of just offering chew toys. Try out some nosework at home and play hide and seek with some treats. If you can increase the intensity of her exercise a little bit, that can help to; such as walking on a more hilly route or on trails instead of pavement. 

Its not so much that you don't ever repeat a command, its more that there is a time and place for it and most of the time, when the dog isn't obeying it is better to consider what you need to change or reinforce differently than to just repeat the same words over again. So in your example of the sofa, its possible that you've burned the command "Off" because she knows she can ignore it so it becomes background noise. Instead of repeating the command, you might go get a treat and call her to you (with 'Here' or 'Come' for example and not using the command 'Off'). Then do that a few times and start to re-pair the command of "Off" with the action. 

I don't like to think of it as winning or losing or proving who is more stubborn but rather, how to teach the dog that listening to me and working WITH me is in their best interests because it results in something they enjoy. Like, walking nicely on a leash leads to getting to sniff more spots and have longer walks. Not crowding me on the couch and licking my face means the dog gets to continue to snuggle on the couch with me instead of being asked to go lay on a dog bed. 

Clicker training might be something fun and useful for both of you.


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## doghugger (Nov 23, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> It sounds like her crate has become a very negative space for her. Your emotions when you put her in are angry and frustrated, and she knows that. She's probably even fearful of that. You can use a crate as a time out, but it has to be done in a neutral way. Think of it as more of a space for the dog to calm down, than as "time out" where they should think about what they've done (they really don't have the capacity to think about what they've done or why it was wrong). Get some sort of treat or chewy and put her in there.


At first when I started using the crate, I would be openly frustrated and I would always say, "Penny, no!" but not in an angry way, more like in a "Not again" sort of way. Now when I put her there, I don't even say anything anymore. I just pick her up and take her there.

With the management, the jumping on the table is the hardest one to pin down because she goes to the kitchen often to have a drink of water so she's not always supervised, and sometimes the moment I realize it is when I hear her jumping off it, or I hear something being torn. 

The trainer I mentioned before told me that if I point to the thing she did wrong and say "no" she should get it, is that true? So for example if she pees on the floor and I walk in after she's done, will she understand the association if I point to the puddle and say "no" and then take her to her crate?


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

This jumps out at me because it matches the progression of change in other behaviors ( *but there was no way to get her back in with how fast she was and the struggle* ) best to go back to square one and rebuild the relationship. Put your stuff away so you wont be put into position to have to struggle with your pup for correcting them. What ever you need of them find ways for them to participate towards you to get it done.. This will take time to repair , rebuild and relearn... Main thing is to puppy proof your environment so you can focus and introduce the positives and rewards for working with you. It happens so slowly over time for the negatives it's not easy to see it happening until it's all the interactions that you have together.. Breathe, regroup and start over being more mindful...


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

doghugger said:


> There are other commands that she definitely knows though and seems to be choosing not to do them because she doesn't feel like it. When she was doing well, she had a two or three week period where I would say "off" whenever I caught her on a couch and she would leap off right away. Now sometimes I'll see her lying there comfortably and I'll say the command and she'll just look away like she can't hear me.


It's really debatable whether teenage dogs are blowing you off, or just don't have any idea what you're saying. Sometimes they really do just forget this stuff and you need to back up. When stuff like this happens, I'm persistent and get the behavior to happen, but I'm gentle about it. So if I say "off" and the dog ignores me, I walk up and gently lead them off. If they get up, do it again. Sometimes dog training is about being more persistent than the dog, but you can't get angry or emotional about it either.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

doghugger said:


> The trainer I mentioned before told me that if I point to the thing she did wrong and say "no" she should get it, is that true? So for example if she pees on the floor and I walk in after she's done, will she understand the association if I point to the puddle and say "no" and then take her to her crate?


Absolutely 100% not true! For very soft dogs, who care what you think, sure this can work if you are right there when they do it. Dog jumps on table, you say "no", dog thinks "Oh, he doesn't like that, won't do it again". These dogs are rare. And if you're just saying "no" all the time, it really doesn't have any meaning at all. The dog is responding to your tone of voice and body language more than "no", because "no" is not a specific cue.

For dogs who really don't care that much, and who are impulsive and want to do what they want to do, it's not going to have any effect. And for some soft dogs it's just going to confuse and frighten them. And it's especially not true if it's after the fact. Maybe if she's peeing right that second and you say "no" and take her outside she'll get it. But if you come in even 5 seconds later and point to the puddle, all she will think is "Wow, my owner gets really mad when he sees pee on the floor!" She has no idea that she even made that puddle or that making the puddle was wrong at that point, so you're just confusing her. Dogs will often look "guilty" because they've made this association, "Oh no, owner saw pee on the floor, he's gonna get scary, better make myself look small and non-threatening because I don't like when he's mad". Thing that we interpret as "guilt" are the dog saying "I'm a small nice dog, no need to be upset"

Focus on what you *do* want the dog to do. Reward that. She will become much more cooperative.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> This jumps out at me because it matches the progression of change in other behaviors ( *but there was no way to get her back in with how fast she was and the struggle* ) best to go back to square one and rebuild the relationship. Put your stuff away so you wont be put into position to have to struggle with your pup for correcting them. What ever you need of them find ways for them to participate towards you to get it done.. This will take time to repair , rebuild and relearn... Main thing is to puppy proof your environment so you can focus and introduce the positives and rewards for working with you. It happens so slowly over time for the negatives it's not easy to see it happening until it's all the interactions that you have together.. Breathe, regroup and start over being more mindful...


Great post.


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## doghugger (Nov 23, 2015)

PatriciafromCO said:


> This jumps out at me because it matches the progression of change in other behaviors ( *but there was no way to get her back in with how fast she was and the struggle* ) best to go back to square one and rebuild the relationship. Put your stuff away so you wont be put into position to have to struggle with your pup for correcting them. What ever you need of them find ways for them to participate towards you to get it done.. This will take time to repair , rebuild and relearn... Main thing is to puppy proof your environment so you can focus and introduce the positives and rewards for working with you. It happens so slowly over time for the negatives it's not easy to see it happening until it's all the interactions that you have together.. Breathe, regroup and start over being more mindful...


Yeah I've been thinking that her space needs to be more restricted. She got a lot of freedom fast and there wasn't proper training for a lot of behaviors and now that she's getting bigger it's becoming a bigger problem. 

There's also the issue that my sister and I don't see eye to eye on some training. From the beginning she has thought that a lot of things are "mean" like not giving her food at the table or a human snack here and there. So Penny is still very persistent in trying to get food from us when we eat, actually it's worse because she's bigger now and when she jumps up and down while she's begging, she literally comes up to my shoulder height sometimes.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

doghugger said:


> Yeah I've been thinking that her space needs to be more restricted. She got a lot of freedom fast and there wasn't proper training for a lot of behaviors and now that she's getting bigger it's becoming a bigger problem.
> 
> There's also the issue that my sister and I don't see eye to eye on some training. From the beginning she has thought that a lot of things are "mean" like not giving her food at the table or a human snack here and there. So Penny is still very persistent in trying to get food from us when we eat, actually it's worse because she's bigger now and when she jumps up and down while she's begging, she literally comes up to my shoulder height sometimes.


Yeah, if you want her to stop begging, you'll all have to stop feeding from the table. I don't do any additional training with mine at meal time, I don't make them do anything specific, or reward them for anything, I just do not feed them from my plate ever, so they don't even try. They can sleep on the couch next to me while I eat. But you have to be consistent.

In the mean time, you can try crating her or gating her into another room with a frozen kong or bully stick or something while you eat, so she'll have her own thing to do and won't be able to practice the begging.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm not there to see it, but consider the possibility that rather than aggression you are seeing some really pent up displacement excitement when she comes out of the crate. When I come home from somewhere and let Toast out of his crate if he were not managed and taught alternative behaviors he would basically "attack" me because he is so excited. As it is I always have a toy at the ready for him to grab as he comes out and we have practiced more controlled greetings like crazy but sometimes he is still overcome with teenage dog feelings. 

In general I agree that she needs better management and consistent training. Whenever I get to a point where I feel like I'm scolding my dogs a lot or putting them into a lot of time outs, I try to ask myself "what can I do to help HIM/HER better understand what behavior I want?" and it helps keep me from getting too frustrated and bumps me into problem-solving mode.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I think the issue with "off" and a lot of other commands is twofold:

1. If you were continually telling her off and not rewarding regularly, well, what's her motivation to off? People make the mistake of rewarding during the first few repetitions and then never rewarding again. Not gonna work. Go back to basics and reward often. 

2. If you tell her off and then she doesn't and then you tell her again and she doesn't (repeat), you're basically just teaching her that either off has no meaning or the off isn't required until you've said it x number of times. You see this a lot with sit. Sit, Buddy! Sit! Sit! Sit! SIT! SIIIIITTTT!!!! *dog sits*

I can't help you with your sister, I can help you with begging. I do share my meals with my dog. I don't think it's mean not to, I just like to. What I do is slowly set a standard for behavior during meals. So, first, the dog has to be sitting. As soon as he sits, he gets food. Lots of food. (At this stage, he's getting quite a lot of my food in teeny little bites.) Slowly, I increase the time between bites. Then I increase his distance from me to something reasonable. After a few weeks, he learns that the dog sitting quietly a few feet away will get some bites of food. I can live with that. If you can live with a compromise like that, then I'd recommend it. If you absolutely cannot live with that, well, I can't help you with your sister.


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## doghugger (Nov 23, 2015)

Shell said:


> How much mental exercise does she get? Instead of toys, aim for more interactive play with you. Use meals as training sessions, try puzzle toys for feeding instead of just offering chew toys. Try out some nosework at home and play hide and seek with some treats. If you can increase the intensity of her exercise a little bit, that can help to; such as walking on a more hilly route or on trails instead of pavement.


She only gets mental exercise during our training sessions every day, which are usually only 20 minutes or so. She's a very smart dog, so this is another thing I have been worrying about. My sister doesn't really do anything to mentally stimulate her because she works from home, so most of the time she's alone with the dog she's busy doing other things. When I get home I walk her and train her. I worry about the hours when she doesn't have someone around to make sure she's entertained or mentally stimulated. 

I was looking at some "brain" toys that she can play with when she doesn't have anyone to get her mind going. This was one of the first toys I got her and it used to take her a while to figure it out, but now it's so easy for her.



sassafras said:


> I'm not there to see it, but consider the possibility that rather than aggression you are seeing some really pent up displacement excitement when she comes out of the crate. When I come home from somewhere and let Toast out of his crate if he were not managed and taught alternative behaviors he would basically "attack" me because he is so excited. As it is I always have a toy at the ready for him to grab as he comes out and we have practiced more controlled greetings like crazy but sometimes he is still overcome with teenage dog feelings.


She's always been excitable when getting out of the crate, and the biting thing is something she's been doing from the beginning, but the new behavior that makes me think she's mad is the angry growling and barking.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

elrohwen said:


> Absolutely 100% not true! For very soft dogs, who care what you think, sure this can work if you are right there when they do it. Dog jumps on table, you say "no", dog thinks "Oh, he doesn't like that, won't do it again". These dogs are rare. And if you're just saying "no" all the time, it really doesn't have any meaning at all. The dog is responding to your tone of voice and body language more than "no", because "no" is not a specific cue.
> 
> For dogs who really don't care that much, and who are impulsive and want to do what they want to do, it's not going to have any effect. And for some soft dogs it's just going to confuse and frighten them. And it's especially not true if it's after the fact. Maybe if she's peeing right that second and you say "no" and take her outside she'll get it. But if you come in even 5 seconds later and point to the puddle, all she will think is "Wow, my owner gets really mad when he sees pee on the floor!" She has no idea that she even made that puddle or that making the puddle was wrong at that point, so you're just confusing her. Dogs will often look "guilty" because they've made this association, "Oh no, owner saw pee on the floor, he's gonna get scary, better make myself look small and non-threatening because I don't like when he's mad". Thing that we interpret as "guilt" are the dog saying "I'm a small nice dog, no need to be upset"
> 
> Focus on what you *do* want the dog to do. Reward that. She will become much more cooperative.


I completely agree and very well said. 

For basically anything that the dog has done which you catch after the fact-- walk into a room and there is pee, come home and a shoe is chewed-- you just have to clean it up and ignore it really. The dog is not going to put together their action from minutes or hours ago with your pointing and "No" 

At best, it does nothing. At worst, it can create a general fear or anxiety about whatever they DO end up connecting with your displeasure; anything from an object you are holding to a room you are upset in. 

Try breaking up training sessions into several smaller time periods over a day; 5 minutes here and there instead of 20 minutes at once. Remember that everything is a training opportunity, dog does something you like, you praise and reward. Dog does something you don't like, you redirect to your preferred action. 

You might want to start keeping the kitchen chairs on the other side of the room


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

"She doesn't like being alone, so it's still a punishment but probably not as effective."

Withdrawing attention from most dogs is a very powerful punishment. If you say "oops" and then you withdraw attention from a dog for only 30 seconds , most dogs will try to learn how to stop doing whatever caused you to say "Oops". The first time it may take 3 days or so, but eventually the reaction can be immediate.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

what breed is she?

I have nothing else to add other than welcome to owning a teenage dog. Lincoln is 15 months old and we are on the tail end of this stage, which considering his breed (mini american shepherd) wasnt that bad, but I always dread this stage for good reason haha.


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