# The Crippled German Shepherd



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I hear this all the time about the Amline GSDs, and I certainly don't deny that some of them are, however, I would like to make a point.

The following are all pictures of Justin in various stacks, some more extreme, some more moderate. All show how much I can alter him just by the placement of his rear feet. I also have gaiting pics to show that even though I can make him look so extreme he looks to be standing on his whole hock, he still gaits properly.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)




----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)




----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)




----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

You forgot one.


----------



## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

yeah, i can see where he has such a hard time even standing....that poor dog, i think you should just shoot him (earth humour)

gorgeous boy, and i'm not usually partial to the Amlines....


----------



## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

I think I'll snag a few pics of our local GSD's (especially the long haired "show" GSD from the park) and let you be the judge of whether or not that dog is crippled.

Justin looks nice to me, the dog I have in mind isn't even being stacked but is so under slung in the rear end and walks with both rear legs "twisting" - that's the best way I can describe it.

I'll get video of them playing next time, poor boy can't keep up with Lacey.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

That would be good ACampbell 

I just wanted to make a point that just because a dog looks extreme doesn't always mean he is, or that he's incapable of walking/gaiting properly


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I thought I'd add this link, too, for anyone who thinks Strauss does NOT have plenty of power in his gait.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5koGHXqTto


----------



## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Dogstar said:


> I thought I'd add this link, too, for anyone who thinks Strauss does NOT have plenty of power in his gait.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5koGHXqTto


OMG Crestie sighting at the beginning there!

Strauss looks awesome, such a beautiful boy. =)


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Strauss looks awesome, such a beautiful boy. =)


Thanks  Too bad his handler sucks xD


----------



## AkiraleShiba (Dec 9, 2007)

Your dog looks great 

MY problem is the GSD s that have to rotate their legs out to walk because they just don't fit under him  I have not seen this kind of GSD often but it breaks my heart when I do.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Now that is what I am talkin' about! Obviously I need to throw in a few of Atka in various stacks... 

I always thought that in a stack the stretched hind leg was to be set up with the cannon perpendicular to the ground so you could drop a plumb line from point of hock to ground along the back of the cannon. The far, (forward) hind foot toes no further ahead than the stifle and the point of hock directly below the point of hip....

I could have that all wrong and feel free to correct me.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

You're correct Elana  Part of Justin's titlted hock is a combination of being overstacked and him leaning into it.

Justin is considered an extreme dog for many...while he's a little more than I'm used to, he is still quite moderate and most definitely functional.



> MY problem is the GSD s that have to rotate their legs out to walk because they just don't fit under him


These dogs are usually in the specialty ring and tend towards overangulation + loose ligamentation


----------



## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

Justin is nowhere near as "extreme" (I think he's mild to be honest compared to what I see up here) as the ones I've seen. Seriously, the long hair reminds me of a manx cat the way he walks...ugh I wish I was better at descriptions!

Yes, I promise, this weekend, photos for comparison...I've even been using the clicker to help train Lacey for a stack...seems to be working thus so far!










This is what I consider "extreme".

How can that be structurally sound, it just looks so unnatural.

ETA: Found this picture on a website, but looks a lot like the pup at the dog park that I'm talking about.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Xeph, explain to me again why they make the GSD's stack like that? Would it be safe to say that many people that take the "stacked pictures" of their dogs OVER stack? It seems to me that often times the dog is stretched way too far out. To me if the dog looks unbalanced by stacking them, it is probably over done. Well, that or it is just a really structurally unsound dog.


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

ACampbell said:


> Justin is nowhere near as "extreme" (I think he's mild to be honest compared to what I see up here) as the ones I've seen. Seriously, the long hair reminds me of a manx cat the way he walks...ugh I wish I was better at descriptions!
> 
> Yes, I promise, this weekend, photos for comparison...I've even been using the clicker to help train Lacey for a stack...seems to be working thus so far!
> 
> ...


Doesn't the breed standard call for a relatively straight back without any sagging? That's some serious drooping if you ask me! Looks like he's squatting to take a poo XD

Also, the picture of an ideal German Shepherd on AKC.org doesn't look extreme at all. Why do you think people don't use that as a reference and breed extreme dogs?


----------



## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

From what I'm told, that's an AKC champion dog that I snagged the picture of


----------



## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Obviously they need to find some judges that aren't blind or something, it clearly deviates from the breed standard!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

The dog you posted ACampbell, is in no way an AKC dog. That dogs is purely west German, and his issue is not sagging, but roaching.

The extreme I refer to is the rear angulation of the dog. His angulation is actually pretty close to Justin's, so that is not his issue. The issue is a different extreme (his severely roached topline), which makes him look overangulated when in reality, if it weren't for that banana back he'd be very similar to Justin in structure.



> Xeph, explain to me again why they make the GSD's stack like that?


Honestly...I don't think anyone really knows. It actually goes against what von Stephanitz wanted (shock). He wanted the dogs to be shown in a completely natural state with NO interference from the handler (freestacks for everybody). GSDs used to stack four square like other breeds (Wayyyyy back when).

The only overall answer I can give you is that people believe it makes the dog look more alert, like he's ready to spring into action at any moment (not that some of them could), and that they appear more watchful.



> Would it be safe to say that many people that take the "stacked pictures" of their dogs OVER stack?


Yes and no. For example:








This is a beautiful dog...LOVE him standing...but I hate this stack with his hock flat on the ground. It makes him look more extreme than he really is and he looks unbalanced (in terms of angles, not physical standing balance). I haven't seen this dog in person or had my hands on him, but standing, I like him...he could just use a more flattering stack.









Justin winning his first point...it's a TERRIBLE picture. He's not particularly overstacked, but he doesn't look great. He looks very front heavy. The issue isn't me overstacking, it's the $#*@(&$#*( photog that is in such a rush that I don't have time to set up my dog properly.

While some dogs ARE purposely stretched to ridiculous proportions, at shows the issue is usually time. You don't GET to make your dog look the best (nevermind you) unless it's a group placement or BIS (and sometimes not even then x.x).



> Why do you think people don't use that as a reference and breed extreme dogs?


That dog is actually Hatter (Covy-Tucker Hill's Manhattan), and I think he was fantastic. He was actually a small male, but very charismatic. I asked that same question once, and nobody actually ANSWERED it, they just picked the dog apart (useful right?). Overall what it comes down to is interpretation of the standard.

The GSD standard calls for angulation in the rear as close to a right angle as possible (the shoulder blade is also supposed to make an angle of 90 degrees), however, where you create that right angle varies (I can get pictures if necessary). The other thing is, should it make as close to a right angle as possible while standing naturally...or in a stacked position?

Interpretation. 

Things like the dog above are a BLATANT disregard for the standard, but where you create a right angle in the hindquarter? Fully open to interpretation and thus, subject to human "error".


----------



## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Just so people are aware, there is an entire different world of GSD's out there that doesn't breed to this physical look. The extremes working GSDs are of the mental variety (a whole different can of worms) but they don't look anything like show GSDs.

Pretty much my favorite looking dog in existence for an example :











Straight back, stacked just like the show dogs (minus the far hock being further off the ground), but doesn't look at all overextended. Eagle is (imo) about the picture of a perfect GSD on the other side of the argument.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

trumpetjock, that is more the look of the GSD's that I grew up around. It was sort of shocking to me the first time I saw the GSD's in the ring at an AKC show. Temperaments were quite different when I was growing up too. Um, that was a FEW years ago.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Is that Eagle v Eichenluft xD! That old devil! He's almost 11 now!

Eagle is pretty fantastic  I'm sad I won't be getting my Eagle puppy :-(


----------



## trumpetjock (Dec 14, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Is that Eagle v Eichenluft xD! That old devil! He's almost 11 now!
> 
> Eagle is pretty fantastic  I'm sad I won't be getting my Eagle puppy :-(


You and me both. If there were a litter being sired by him out there, I would be on top of that faster than you could imagine. After all my time spent churning through pedigree database and talking to breeders, I have yet to find a sire I like as much as Eagle. The next best was one that you pointed out to me actually Xeph, Branko vom Salztalblick:










He's about the best active stud I've been able to find.


----------



## Summerhawk (Mar 23, 2009)

I have a question concerning confirmation in Shepherds...Justin's pasterns are more sloping, and Eagle has more upright pasterns. Is this typically different in the two types?

I ask, because one of the problems that I've seen in Amline GSD's is that I have seen some with pasterns so "broken down" that not only do they have a lumbering, non-fluid gait, but if you watch from the front, you can actually see the pads of their front feet. Obviously, these dogs are bred/sold by breeders who are only out for the cash, and not to maintain the breed standards. Which is an absolute travesty.

I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination...just a lover of the breed.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Branko is nice, TJ, but I actually prefer Paska  Too bad he died so young :-(



> Justin's pasterns are more sloping, and Eagle has more upright pasterns. Is this typically different in the two types?


The angulation is different by a whopping 2 degrees between the standards. Justin's issue actually isn't that he's overangulated in the pastern, but that his pasterns are too LONG.

Eagle is actually pretty well angulated himself, but it's hard to see with his dark markings. His look a bit better because his pasterns are shorter. The pasterns can also alter with the stack, just like the rear.

I have pictures of Strauss where his pasterns look like absolute crap, and other pictures where they look fantastic.

Awesome pasterns:









OMG WTH!? Pasterns:


----------



## Summerhawk (Mar 23, 2009)

> Justin's issue actually isn't that he's overangulated in the pastern, but that his pasterns are too LONG.


Oh, yeah. I can see that now that you pointed it out! Thanks for the info!!


----------



## ACampbell (Oct 7, 2007)

Xeph:


> The dog you posted ACampbell, is in no way an AKC dog. That dogs is purely west German, and his issue is not sagging, but roaching.


I never said he was an American bred or line dog...but yes, that dog has an AKC CH. I found the same picture/same dog on another website...they are proud of him.  I think he's uhm, very much so less than pretty. I'll go dig through my history tomorrow and link that site, I'm too tired to deal with it right now as I"ve been to God only knows how many websites since this afternoon.

I also never said his back "sagged" - don't jump the gun on me. He was the closest comparison I could find to the puppy I saw at the DP...

People are importing dogs that look like that...that roached back is just...ewwwww.

Here:
http://www.royalair.org/pasttopresent.htm

I love the comparison photos to show just what people have done to this breed.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Xeph said:


> Justin winning his first point...it's a TERRIBLE picture. He's not particularly overstacked, but he doesn't look great. He looks very front heavy. The issue isn't me overstacking, it's the $#*@(&$#*( photog that is in such a rush that I don't have time to set up my dog properly.


I did Professinal Photography for years. Taking photos of show animals is a real specialty. You cannot afford to EVER "blow" a shot. Xeph, you should have SHOT the photographer. 

I knew photographers that ONLY photographed Dairy show cows. I knew others who did ONLY show horses. I have done yearling photos for the Saratoga Yearling Sale (Fasig Tipton). These photos need to put the animal in perfect form!

In photography of show animals or yearlings etc. you need three knowledgeable people.. the handler, a person to get the animal's attention and the photographer who knows when the animal is standing awkward and what is the best angle to take the photo from to enhance the CORRECT conformation (so the photographer needs to knwo what correct IS). 

A yearling horse that is a little "whispy" and immature looking needs to be set up PERFECT.. on the level, space to the knees, near leg forward, Space to the Hocks, near rear leg back and the photographer needs to stand opposite or slightly behind the hip so the 3-d horse looks more mature, and stronger throughout as his image is reproduced on a 2D surface. 

A "professional" photographer at a show should never take a less than perfect shot and he/she needs to know what "perfect" is both for the shot and conformation of the animal....

sorry.. I am ranting... I just do not like it when someone in this business is "rushed" and lets the client know it.. Heck.. when youa re doing this work you are ALWAYS rushed.. try doing a couple of weddings.. you cannot miss the Fist Kiss.. EVER! LOL

BTW when it comes to GSD's this has been a VERY educational thread. I am luvin' it!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I also never said his back "sagged" - don't jump the gun on me. He was the closest comparison I could find to the puppy I saw at the DP...


I was actually responding to Nargle in regards to the sagging ^_^

Any idea what the name of that AKC Ch. is? I'm tempted to see if he (she?) really is one, because I don't believe ANY American judge would put that up x.x


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

OK.. here is another one of Atka. No collar (tho the ring is visible) and we used mousse to flatten the hair . Her head is not up as high as I would like, but the lighting better defines her stifle, tho I think it still exhibits the "not going anywhere" fault. The previous photo was very flat lighting. 

Her croup is steep, but her back is more level.. any bumps are from the wind blowing her hair.. she just couldn't do a THING with it... tsk tsk tsk... LOL

I also placed her on a little bit of an incline and the footing was better (asphalt and not grass).


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

That does show her turn of stifle much better. She's a little long bodied but not as much as she had appeared to be before.


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

The point is that the photographer can make a HUGE difference. Just HUGE. 

Now, I admit ti being an amateur at judging the proper GSD. I can do it with a horse.. any horse.. and photograph them so the faults are minimized and the strengths empahsized. If I knew the GSD the way I know horses, well there is much more I could do with the camera. 

The whole of this thread proves this.. there are photos here of what appears to be over angulation and extremes not because the dog IS extreme or over angulated, but because the photographer did not take the time to do the job right. 

Lighting, dog set up and where the photo is taken from (opposite the dog's chest to opposite the dog's hip, at the dogs level or how much above etc.) can make a HUGE difference. 

Atka I took at her level. If I had a waist level View finder, I could have placed the lens lower and she would have appeared taller and less long (I have whined about her length right along.. I would like her shorter.. just physics!). If the light angle was a little higher and at a more extreme angle to her, her stifle would have really looked pronounced.. and that is me knowing not nearly enough to judge a German Shepherd. 

Xeph.. I love your dogs and I love these threads. I learn a lot and maybe someday I will have the ability to look at a German Shepherd the way I can a horse.. and be able to set them up and photograph them to look good. 

I have considered getting a dog and seeing if I could prove him/her and have thought about breeding.. but to do it right.. well, I also know I may never get there. However, if I can learn as much as I can I may get good at taking their photos and live vicariously thru the lens and the lives of others!

Thanks so much for these threads and for taking the time to judge my dog's photos!


----------



## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

> I have pictures of Strauss where his pasterns look like absolute crap, and other pictures where they look fantastic.


Sorry if this is obvious, but I really don't know - what's a pastern? I don't know what I am supposed to be looking at.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> The point is that the photographer can make a HUGE difference. Just HUGE.
> 
> Now, I admit ti being an amateur at judging the proper GSD. I can do it with a horse.. any horse.. and photograph them so the faults are minimized and the strengths empahsized. If I knew the GSD the way I know horses, well there is much more I could do with the camera.
> 
> ...



Where were you when I was showing horses???
Do you still do animal photography? Want to post a few hints for those of us that can't take a decent picture to save her soul? Well, at least not of my own dogs. lol


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Squeeker said:


> Sorry if this is obvious, but I really don't know - what's a pastern? I don't know what I am supposed to be looking at.


The pastern is basically the "Wrist" of an animal  That slanted section between the dogs' foot and their actual leg is the pastern.

Sometimes the hock (the bone perpendicular to the ground) is called the rear pastern.



> I learn a lot and maybe someday I will have the ability to look at a German Shepherd the way I can a horse


I think the hardest part of learning how to critique the GSD is to look at ALL the lines and critique a *German Shepherd Dog*. Not an *American* German Shepherd or a *West German* German Shepherd or a *working line*German Shepherd


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Xeph said:


> I think the hardest part of learning how to critique the GSD is to look at ALL the lines and critique a *German Shepherd Dog*. Not an *American* German Shepherd or a *West German* German Shepherd or a *working line*German Shepherd


I agree with this. It applies to horses as well. You can "judge" a thoroughbred and some will be better suited for showing and some better suited for racing, but the truly correct ones.. like Cigar or Secretariat or Man O' War or Forego would ALL do well in Either Discipline (based only on conformation). There are aberrations tho.. and I am sure this is true of GSD's as well.. where a horse has conformation that makes you wonder... and they clean up.. Like John Henry, Sea Biscuit and Exterminator. These animal win anyway and that is when Heart and Desire count more.. and they are amazing. 

BUT, back to the GSD, I agree. I know that in choosing a dog for myself, I look at the dog and I know what I like and what I think is sound. The unsoudness I see in my dog is her length. I think a shorter dog has less stress on the lumbar back and less liklihood of breakdown as age creeps up. However, in Atka's case, being breed standard in size at 68 to 70 pounds and being kept slim, she MAY be OK. 

But I will LEARN this because I find it interesting. 

Inga: I will try to start a thread on photography.. but I am limited because I have dial up at home and posting photos is a pain.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I think a shorter dog has less stress on the lumbar back and less liklihood of breakdown as age creeps up.


Perhaps along the back. However, if you get a dog that is TOO short through the loin and back, you end up with a dog that breaks down in the joints faster, because he is no longer moving efficiently


----------



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

OH. That SO makes sense. Absolutely. Especially in a working dog doing herding and trotting the day thru. Joint impact is very important. 

In horses the inefficient movement by shortness is often exhibited when the horse "forges" at the trot.. catches the front toe with the hind toe.. and it can be worse to the point where the horse over reaches and injures himself (requiring boots) cutting his front heel with his hind toe. Instead of boots or ina ddition to boots, you can roll the front toe and add a short trailer to the hind shoe which alters the gait by getting the front foot off the ground quicker and the hind foot on the ground quicker (but puts a lot more strain on the hocks).. 

I notice with GSD's they naturally over reach at the trot but do not interfere (or the ones I have had and been able to watch). Nice movement is nice movement.. fluid and strong and ground covering.

It is obvious to me that I need to attend some dog shows.. be best if a knowledgable person was along to point out the strengths and defects of each GSD.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> In horses the inefficient movement by shortness is often exhibited when the horse "forges" at the trot


Lack of length in the GSD will cause one of two things, depending on how the dog's front/rear assembly is set up. If the dog has a good shoulder he will have good reach, but will likely kick up in the rear and/or run downhill because he doesn't have the angles to match.

If he is overdone in the rear and/or has no front, he will "throw" his front or lift because he is trying to get his front out of the way of his rear

A short loin and strong back is important, *however* it is decent length that allows the dog to achieve the overreach that is asked for without stepping all over himself



> I notice with GSD's they naturally over reach at the trot but do not interfere (or the ones I have had and been able to watch).


Yes, and I would like to point out that they SHOULD and DO do this in all lines!

I don't know how it works with horses, but the reason that GSDs don't "clip" themselves at the trot when they overreach is due to the fact that their rear foot goes "inside outside". So imagine the dog at the trot...the first movement forward the dog's rear foot will overreach to the INSIDE of the dog's pastern (converging towards the center). The second pass through, the dog's foot will overreach to the OUTSIDE of the front pastern. Understand what I mean?

Go on youtube and look up Dingo Haus Gero. He is shown entirely in slowmotion and you can see both the overreach and the "inside outside" I'm talking about 

Getting back to length:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/523414.html
This is a dog with proper length of body, however you can see that he's overdone in the rear. He'll lift in front because otherwise there is absolutely nowhere for his rear to go. In some cases the dog will kick up because he can't get his feet under him properly, and so on the follow through in the rear drive extra pressure is put on the pads of the feet and he "kicks" to get out of his own way

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/523526.html
This dog has a proper loin and back, but she's so leggy that she ends up being more square than rectangular (longer than tall)

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/508197.html
Long and low dog

The Germans have long dogs too:
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/76946.html


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Squeeker said:


> Sorry if this is obvious, but I really don't know - what's a pastern? I don't know what I am supposed to be looking at.


Squeeker, these might help:


















"Pastern angle" of 165 degrees

Something like that "corner" in the hind leg. If you'll notice, in Justin's pictures, that "corner" is almost touching the ground.


----------



## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Inga: I will try to start a thread on photography.. but I am limited because I have dial up at home and posting photos is a pain.



Oh Please Please do. I would love to see some of your horse photography. I wish I could scan some of my old pictures in to share with your too. Not that they are that great but... they are my horses. 
Do you have any American Saddlebreds or Warmbloods? Arabians? he he NOW I am excited.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> If you'll notice, in Justin's pictures, that "corner" is almost touching the ground.


But the pastern in the front isn't the same as the pastern in the rear.

The GSD standard calls for an angulation of 25 degrees in the (Fore) pastern, so it's unfair to compare angles with a dog/breed that calls for 165...they aren't the same at all x.x

Rear pasterns really can't be angulated, so there's nothing to compare there. But a dog with a 90 degree rear angle is going to have a hock that can settle closer to the ground. No other breed (that I'm aware of) has angles like this.


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

Oh, I wasn't using the 165 degree picture as an ideal... I was just using it to show what a pastern actually is.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

My bad xD I was so confused, lol


----------



## rosemaryninja (Sep 28, 2007)

No worries  

This may be a basic question, but are GSDs faulted in the ring for being stacked in a less extreme, "normal" position?


----------



## HyperFerret (Feb 7, 2009)

Pai said:


> OMG Crestie sighting at the beginning there!


I saw that too in the youtube video. ~LOVE Cresties! 

I don't know enough to throw my two cents in about the stance/stacks/positon. Just enjoying the pics of the GSD and the info. Beautiful dogs!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

rosemaryninja said:


> This may be a basic question, but are GSDs faulted in the ring for being stacked in a less extreme, "normal" position?


No. In fact, before I show to a judge I haven't been in front of before, I do a search for the results of shows they've judged previously. I look up the dogs they've put up as winners and judge whether or not they'll like Justin.

Usually I can find a dog of Justin's type that is just stacked in a less extreme matter. In cases like that I go "Ok, bring them good shoulder and breed type, don't overstretch the dog".

In other cases I see a judge where it's "Likes Sable and "pretty" Bring him a light mover and over extend to give the dog the appearance of more length/depth of body and accentuate rear angles."

Get what I'm saying?



> I don't know enough to throw my two cents in about the stance/stacks/positon. Just enjoying the pics of the GSD and the info. Beautiful dogs!


Thank you


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

IMO, this stacking should be eliminated. It is ridiculous to put a dog in an unnatural position and then judge his conformation.

Have all the dogs stand in their natural way and then judge each dog against the standard.

Oh, and double handling is also a joke and should be stopped.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

This thread is almost a year old.


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

Xeph said:


> This thread is almost a year old.


So? It was new to me.


----------



## sablegsd (Jan 24, 2010)

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/necromancer.htm

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/archivist.htm


----------

