# If you could give ONE warning about your breed-



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

What would it be? 

Doesn't have to be super negative, or given with the intent of putting people off, but a single heads up to something about your breed that you think people should be more aware of.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Beagles: Will follow nose into traffic.

GSD: This dog will bark. I hope you enjoy that noise.

Golden Retriever: Will leave park with anyone. On the plus side, maybe that person will do tonight's brushing.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Bostons: Personal space isn't a concept they understand. This can be both good and bad, depending on the amount of energy they're failing to apply the concept with. 

RT: While sensitive and nowhere near as stubborn as most terriers, they are masters of passive aggression.

Pyr: The dog loves you because you belong to it not because it belongs to you. If this is going to hurt your feelings or your ego don't bother. 

GSD: Plan on wearing gauntlets for a few months.

Kylie: You don't want her, even if you think you do.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Pit bulls: velcro dogs. Big sensitive babies really. Fully convinced that your lap was made to be climbed on and curled into. 

Hounds: if there is something to smell, you no longer exist. They will pay attention to you when they darn well please and not a moment sooner.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

While Great Pyreness are "stubborn"... Aka.. Needs sensitive training and handling... Never anything negative.







I will not call Roman my Pyr "stubborn". He is like my butter... A good boy who "reads my mind"...

Roman's only ever known negative is his chewing.
(Big mouth, faster & bigger destruction)
Especially when he is teething.
Not so much now but I still keep on his ass... So with that, no better training than supervision (like you won't leave a toddler, child or baby unattended, if you don't like mass destruction... Common sense to "supervise" and take that chance to bond with your dog).









P.S. While I do belong to Roman... Roman also very much belonged to me.. (Like a white retriever is a compliment).
A pyr who chose the mom's side? Trust to the human at its best. We are true "partners" , no one way street.

http://www.gpcgc.org/pyrforme.htm


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Saint Bernards - They're big. No, really, BIG. You may need a bigger car, a bigger house, and be prepared for the physical exertion of handling that size of dog.

Belgian Malinois - Be prepared for intensity, even in a mix. These are a dog that needs a job to do and needs a LOT of stimulation and exercise, daily. Nipping is also intense in pups.


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## Adjecyca1 (Jul 25, 2010)

Pit bulls are not what most people make them out to be. The way some bleeding hearts like to paint this breed is wrong and damaging to the breed. Same as the people who paint our breed in a bad light. Pit bulls are not monsters, but they aren't magical rainbow farting unicorns either...


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

Well I have a mix: Boxer/Rottweiler. Though I think these are more Boxer traits.

Clingy. When we're home she needs to be with us all the time otherwise she whines.
Playful. Very high energy (although I'm hoping she'll grow out of this eventually).


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Bernese Mountain Dogs: Take years to grow up, but it feels like they die a moment later.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

*Border collie*, mine at least: The intensity is a constant, every day, rain or shine thing. You don't turn the dog on for a few hours once a week, then expect the dog to be a chill, happy-go-lucky couch potato the rest. The energy, drive, intelligence, focus flavors nearly every aspect of owning the dog, and it is NOT for everyone.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

aiw said:


> Bernese Mountain Dogs: Take years to grow up, but it feels like they die a moment later.


Awwww.... So right... Applies to any dogs.
I dread the day.... Yikes.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Schnauzer: bark, bark, bark, bark, barkity, barkity, bark! 


Actually, we're lucky that Charlie doesn't bark at home unless a dog and owner are walking by the fence or if someone comes into the house. And then, the bark is at such an ear-piercing decibel that you can't hear anything else.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

hueyeats said:


> Awwww.... So right... Applies to any dogs.
> I dread the day.... Yikes.


True, especially the giants. Such sweethearts, but they go so fast.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Saint Bernard- These guys DROOL. Im not talking about a minor slime as they rub up against your pant legs but puddles...like everything else, these guys dont do anything small  The whole "Dry mouth" thing is nonsense from BYBs, these dogs all drool (due to the shape of their flews/lips) but some are worse than others.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Newfies: They're lap dogs. Seriously. 140 pound lap dogs (though luckily we're only at 48 pounds right now...)


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

aiw said:


> True, especially the giants. Such sweethearts, but they go so fast.


It's why I won't go for the giant breeds. They're all so gentle and nice, but the lifespans are trauma inducing.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

LuvMyAngels said:


> Saint Bernard- These guys DROOL. Im not talking about a minor slime as they rub up against your pant legs but puddles...like everything else, these guys dont do anything small  The whole "Dry mouth" thing is nonsense from BYBs, these dogs all drool (due to the shape of their flews/lips) but some are worse than others.


Do you get it on the ceiling? We've been warned about Newf drool flying everywhere and clinging to the ceiling... I keep forgetting to get a long handled "drool mop".


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## Quilivi (Feb 14, 2013)

Husky: You can sweep all day and STILL find furballs in the corner, it doesn't matter how long you've taken the furminator to them. Also god help you if you miss a day of activity.


Border Collie/Whippet: Even if they're golden off leash, they will still zoom in a 50ft. radius around you. She literally vibrates with energy if she can't run.


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## WonderBreadDots (Jun 26, 2012)

Bernese mountain dog: You will have dog hair everywhere. EVERYWHERE.

Doberman Pinscher: Tell people they're Golden Retrievers. Seems to make some people less nervous around them.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

MyCharlie said:


> Schnauzer: bark, bark, bark, bark, barkity, barkity, bark!
> 
> 
> Actually, we're lucky that Charlie doesn't bark at home unless a dog and owner are walking by the fence or if someone comes into the house. And then, the bark is at such an ear-piercing decibel that you can't hear anything else.


This ...^ ... ^ ... ^ ...

Schnauzer/Poodle mixes are the same. They are mix of two purebreds .... They can actually make the metal poles ring in the basement. Honest! They need exercise!!!! They are not just little fluffy lap dogs.

Doberman/Rottweilers .... another mix of dogs .... They need a firm but gentle hand and positive training all the way in my experience. I have had many Purebred Dobies.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

WonderBreadDots said:


> Doberman Pinscher: Tell people they're Golden Retrievers. Seems to make some people less nervous around them.


lmao!! Love it!


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## Aska (Jun 9, 2013)

MyCharlie said:


> Schnauzer: bark, bark, bark, bark, barkity, barkity, bark!
> 
> 
> Actually, we're lucky that Charlie doesn't bark at home unless a dog and owner are walking by the fence or if someone comes into the house. And then, the bark is at such an ear-piercing decibel that you can't hear anything else.


I was going to say that. Arg!

Well... STAMINA! You'll come home after five hour walk with your dog, and the first thing it does is getting its toy. There's no way out!


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Newfies The drool has been mentioned but no one mentioned their gut

They can and will eat everything and anything and probably not get sick. This can be a bad thing when trying to induce vomiting after eating something toxic. 

Hair, learn to enjoy the taste because you'll be eating it for a while.

They love kids a bit too much, especially when you have a 100# puppy wanting to play with a 50# child.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Cotons: They are little, but they are spirited and when they are into an activity, especially if it's physical, they can go from unbelievably gentle to doing things with force you didn't know they had. A "max effort" type of dog - even when it's complete and utter overkill (like CHOMPING a tiny bite sized treat. I just look at him like "Really?"). Oh, and if you don't like kids, don't walk them around where little girls play. Cotons are attractors of every little girl under 10 within sight distance.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Papillons: You buy one and then soon enough you're wondering where the other 4 came from...

No really, they're good little dogs but very interactive. Don't expect to be alone... ever. Also anticipate doing as much exercising with them as you would a larger dog.


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## LuvMyAngels (May 24, 2009)

Effisia said:


> Do you get it on the ceiling? We've been warned about Newf drool flying everywhere and clinging to the ceiling... I keep forgetting to get a long handled "drool mop".


Ceiling, TVs, computer monitors, walls, you name it and he will drool on it. Then there are the "break your neck" puddles on the linoleum floors. Add food and it sounds like someone turned on a faucet...and Bus isnt even a really bad drooler.


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## megs2219 (Feb 23, 2013)

Cairn terriers: Determined! They already have a reputation for being very stubborn but I think determined is actually a better description at least for my dog. He will literally struggle so hard against the least when he wants to go greet some kid up the street that he starts wheezing and gasping for breath but he will continue to struggle. There is no distracting him or redirecting his attention. His focus is impressive but thank god I can pick him up and take him away if/when I need to 'cause he will never give up.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Dachshund - standoffish towards strangers. Also, magnets for strangers. ("LOOK! WIENER DOG!") Good luck balancing that. Very devoted to "their" humans. 

Hamiltons - If you come to my house, and sit down, you will be French kissed by the dog. You've been warned.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Shelties: Choose your breeder carefully and socialize socialize socialize! Also, they bark a lot.


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## surlys_mom (Jul 5, 2013)

Rhodesian Ridgeback: Exhibits "willful disobedience." That's always fun! :whoo:


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Laurelin already covered papillons (the exercise needs are what I was going to mention), so I'll cover the Alaskan Klee Kai:

The AKK's breed standard says, "The Alaskan Klee Kai is reserved and cautious with strangers and in unfamiliar situations." This is an understatement! Even with a lot of socialization, most AKK are not fond of strangers and can be shy OR fear-aggressive. I have met a bunch of AKK now, and I only know one that really likes meeting people. I know one that is super shy, and my own guy (who was socialized a ton and who loved people as a puppy) matured into a dog who does not really like strangers touching him -- he has lunged and snapped at a few people with very little warning. The AKK is not a smaller sibe, at all.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

LuvMyAngels said:


> Ceiling, TVs, computer monitors, walls, you name it and he will drool on it. Then there are the "break your neck" puddles on the linoleum floors. Add food and it sounds like someone turned on a faucet...and Bus isnt even a really bad drooler.



Hehehehhh... sounds like someone else I know...
Roman too drool up to the waazoo... some "super juicy" kisses I call it.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

standard poodle - expect the dog to get more compliments than you; seriously, people stop their cars to tell me what a beautiful dog she is 



WonderBreadDots said:


> Doberman Pinscher: Tell people they're Golden Retrievers. Seems to make some people less nervous around them.


<snort> Along these lines, tell people your poodle is a curly-coated German water retriever because poodles can't possibly be anything except fru fru.


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## Sparkles123 (Dec 3, 2012)

Westies....best dogs ever, I have raised 3 puppies over 5 yrs, none ever chewed anything, easy to train, loving and loyal! I used to have large breeds, dobies and labs, which were great but these westies are soo much easier to travel with. They go everywhere with us! A slight negative...I can't clip their nails but the groomer does it just fine!!


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

Kinda funny that my Newfie never drooled much,no more then a lab,he was off standard or with a little mixed blood though.
His fur was still a pain,and would get constant debris and pine needles in it. Back dew claws can get caught on things and overgrow very quickly.
He had a strong stomach,normally didn't eat weird things but did eat a rock once.

Rottweilers: AKC:calm, confident and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. I would like to add that they can be more energetic then people think,they are not a yard or house decorations.

Rottweilers also really range in temperament from mild mannered teddy bears to hyper,determined and sharp dogs.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Border Collies- don't read all the warnings and work your dog heavily from the get go, you will create a monster that does indeed NEED all that stimulation. the breed is designed to be CAPABLE of going all day, and they DO need a lot of stimulation, but a few lazy days a week? that's only a problem if YOU make it one.

Toller- 2 things: 1- they scream when exited.. its a god awful sound usually likened to the dog being fed through a wood chipper, or in my moms words "sounds like she is being hung from the ceiling by her toenail" be prepared to get visits from animal control because your neighbours think you are abusing your dog. 
2- Toller's are..shall we say.."different" if you are expecting a small GR, you will be sorely disappointed. for example, about a month ago a Toller cam into my work..now this dog comes all the time, but I actually had my Toller the same day for once, I let mine out front and our 2 Toller's ran around each other all spastic and screaming... the other dogs owner was like "they are a...uh..special breed" lol


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

CptJack said:


> RT: While sensitive and nowhere near as stubborn as most terriers, they are masters of passive aggression.


This explains a lot. Today, I bathed Daisy (not her favorite thing), then went down the hall to do some laundry, leaving the bedroom door closed. I came back to find the door opened, and a wet dog curled up on top of MY pillow. Not the middle of the bed, or the SO's pillow. MY pillow. I swear she was smirking.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Alert Barking. Either be prepared to deal with it early on, or get used to barking. Because there WILL be barking. (As our class instructor put it: "An eskimo who barks? How original!")


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## mrgoodkat (Oct 21, 2012)

Huskies: Too smart by half. Will reach areas and steal things you wouldn't think possible
Doberman: Hyperactive little demon, can't stand still for a second


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Tibetan Spaniels: They're basically like cats.... they have a need to be up high so they can watch the world around them... and you let them sit by a window, they will bark and bark, and bark! Oh, and they lick, and lick, and lick... they will lick you until your skin falls off.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

Aussie: They are high energy, no really, they won't wear themselves out in your yard.

ACD- SMARTer than you, and smart is not always a good thing.

Maisys-She is RUDE, she will jump on the couch and put her paw on top of my head when she wants my attention, she barks when she thinks she is being ignored, she throws tantrums when left in her crate during the day.


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## AmandaN (Apr 15, 2013)

I'd offer a lot of warnings, but these are my top 3:
(BTW, I have a Dachshund)
*1. They bark. A lot.* You can train them to bark less, but they will never be a quit breed.
*2. They need way more exercise than 99% are given.* The lack of exercise is why your dog is fat.
*3.TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN from day one. These dogs are smart, so don't underestimate them.* If you start early, training is a breeze.

They also need lifelong socialization.


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## tillypap (Jul 23, 2013)

Papillons: expect to never go to the toilet alone ever again. If Tilly's not quick enough to try and get in before I close the door, she'll spend the whole time sniffing and sticking her paws under the door to get your attention. For a while she would wee outside the bathroom door while I was in there as if she were staging a protest. Private moments are few and far between with a Papillon!


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Labs are perfect, except when they're hungry, which is all the time... or when they want to chew something, which is when they aren't eating ... or when they're puppies, but then they're needle-toothed vampires, so they aren't really dogs, yet.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

AmandaN said:


> I'd offer a lot of warnings, but these are my top 3:
> (BTW, I have a Dachshund)
> *1. They bark. A lot.* You can train them to bark less, but they will never be a quit breed.
> *2. They need way more exercise than 99% are given.* The lack of exercise is why your dog is fat.
> ...


The "Hamilton Blend" dachshund is low-bark. He alert barks at people walking by/coming to the house... that's pretty much it other than his "OMG YOU CAME HOME!" yodel. Whatever his mix is, it makes for a not-overly-barky, easy to train doxie-esque pup! 

Fat doxies make me sad. I keep Ham very trim. I walk him more than he'd like, and feed him less than he'd like!


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

Lola dogs- you can't go anywhere without running into a member of her fan club.


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Aussie..you only thnk you want a velcro dog...seriously this dog needs you all the time, thisdoes not mean from across the room, this means at your feet while on the toilet.

They also are missing a link from there head to their butt...the shakey butt, the wiggle if you will, it will take down your lamp, your toddler, and they have no idea whats going on back there. 

THEY SHED


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

DaisyDC said:


> This explains a lot. Today, I bathed Daisy (not her favorite thing), then went down the hall to do some laundry, leaving the bedroom door closed. I came back to find the door opened, and a wet dog curled up on top of MY pillow. Not the middle of the bed, or the SO's pillow. MY pillow. I swear she was smirking.


It's REALLY hard to explain, and that's exactly the kind of thing I mean. They're just.... really good at it. Not actively defiant, or challenging (EVER as far as I can tell) but... Well, yeah, passive-aggressive.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

Pit Bulls they are very athletic determined dogs which can get them in trouble in so many ways if you don't manage them properly 

Caucasian Ovcharka a big pile of hair awaits your home & no space will be untouched. 

Boerboel a giant velcro dog who believe your lap is as big as they are


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

Finkies are sensitive. You raise your voice at anything and they think they've done something wrong. You NEED positive reinforcement based training or they may shut down. 

They WILL try and tree/bark-point the birds and squirrels in your yard. Baking cookies for the neighbors on a regular basis is probably a good idea. 

Don't underestimate them! They can do A LOT more than people think they can - you just have to find their motivation and work with it.

You will never need an alarm system - they will let you know (loudly) when something is not right at home


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Well I don't have much to add since I don't have a dog of my own.. but here's what I learned about one of my fosters..

Miniature Pinscher: Squirrel?! I got it! Rabbit? I got it! Bird? I GOT IT. OH A BUG I WILL TRY TO CATCH THEM TOO. AIR SNAP AIR SNAP FUN FUN FUN. Yeah. This dog is insane.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

They are probably too much dog for you...


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> They are probably too much dog for you...


If that's referring to me.. nah she isn't too much dog for me. She's actually very easy to deal with, except for when I walk her(we're working on it). 

If you are just talking about ACDs then yes, I believe they are too much dog for me.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

ACDs ....................

They are HERDING DOGS!!! They will:

Nip heels, ankles, pant legs ETC...

Try to herd you, your kids, your other dogs, your horses/livestock 

They need a job & if you don't give them one ... They will create their own (often quite undesirable) job

I don't care what anyone says, simple "ignoring as behavior" doesn't work with these dogs, hey need a strict NILF program & you can't give an inch or trust me, most of them will take it & run.

Of course there are exceptions to every breed, this is just the "basic" run down lol.


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## Lynnlee22 (Jul 12, 2013)

Min Pin-- They have absolutely no concept of their size and will gladly charge anything from a confused deer to the Great Dane at the vet. My Duke was also the guard dog for my house as well as anyone else's yard he could spot from my living room window. RIP, sweet boy. 

Jack Russell/Shih Tzu-- I'm fairly certain someone was gleefully rubbing their hands together when this match was made. The JR provides the boundless energy, digging, and destructive drive while the shih tzu seemed to provide most of the physical attributes. Be prepared to groom...a lot. And a temper...geesh!

Lab mix--best dog in the world...energy to burn but literally almost instantly trainable. Taught basic commands almost effortlessly. Also has no concept of size and sheds masses seasonally.

Daschund mix--I'm not sure if this is breed specific or not as I'm not sure what else he's mixed with, but Rocky hunts and kills everything that moves. Mice, birds, frogs, lizards, snakes, rabbits...doesn't matter. He will find it. He will kill it. He will bring me a body part and leave it by the door. It's like living in a mafia movie.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Hounds are... oh god lol. Let's just say that it's very challenging to compete with all the highly motivating and distracting things the world has to offer their senses.

The boys aren't enough of one particular breed to really say. But a Squash will really mess up your back screen door.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> If that's referring to me.. nah she isn't too much dog for me. She's actually very easy to deal with, except for when I walk her(we're working on it).
> 
> If you are just talking about ACDs then yes, I believe they are too much dog for me.


No I was referring to ACDs...

And I have said that to people before.... 

And I mean no offense to anyone.... But they are a LOT of dog.... Some more than others....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> ACDs ....................
> 
> They are HERDING DOGS!!! They will:
> 
> ...


More than one thing but yea...  
and then some....


And you are right..... Want to FAIL in dog training... play the ignore game with an ACD.. .


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

1 word for the Tervuren: sensitive.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I don't care what anyone says, simple "ignoring as behavior" doesn't work with these dogs, hey need a strict NILF program & you can't give an inch or trust me, most of them will take it & run.


You're always saying things like this, but you should know that positive trainers don't simply ignore undesirable behavior either. It's important to interrupt and redirect ANY breed when it's doing something you don't like, not just ACDs. A great many dogs of all breeds are opportunistic and will exploit your weaknesses (just feed any dog from the table during dinner once and see how often it begs after that, haha).


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You're always saying things like this, but you should know that positive trainers don't simply ignore undesirable behavior either. It's important to interrupt and redirect ANY breed when it's doing something you don't like, not just ACDs. A great many dogs of all breeds are opportunistic and will exploit your weaknesses (just feed any dog from the table during dinner once and see how often it begs after that, haha).



I am so sick of this, too. "Ignore bad behavior" is not something anyone with a brain does. They don't reward it, and they don't stand around and let the dog do whatever they want. Redirect, interrupt, give another command, whatever. Otherwise it's a self-rewarding thing and NO ONE ON DF has EVER suggested doing any such thing! If I don't interrupt and stop Jack from eating out of the garbage, he'll keep doing it and taking it further. Because he's a DOG. A soft, sweet, easy going, generally well behaved dog, but he STILL is a dog. Which means opportunistic.

I hate this crap. HATE HATE HATE.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> You're always saying things like this, but you should know that positive trainers don't simply ignore undesirable behavior either. It's important to interrupt and redirect ANY breed when it's doing something you don't like, not just ACDs. A great many dogs of all breeds are opportunistic and will exploit your weaknesses (just feed any dog from the table during dinner once and see how often it begs after that, haha).


Bet there is an entire subset, I have run into them...... That believe you should just ignore what you do not like... No interupt, redirect, etc...

And for your example... ACDs wrote the book on manipulation. Feed an ACD from the table, he will not come back begging at the next meal. He will jump on the table and help himself to whatever the heck he wants.... Don't you know it is his table anyway?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Bet there is an entire subset, I have run into them...... That believe you should just ignore what you do not like... No interupt, redirect, etc...
> 
> And for your example... ACDs wrote the book on manipulation. Feed an ACD from the table, he will not come back begging at the next meal. He will jump on the table and help himself to whatever the heck he wants.... Don't you know it is his table anyway?


Oh. So you've met Kylie? And Thud? And Bug? And Frost?

...It's still not an ACD thing. It's a confident and intelligent dog thing. Because dogs are all opportunistic. 

And people talk about having met these people. I've never even found them online - *_except when people want to use it to claim that positive trainers are big softies with out of control dogs*_. Because that attitude is extreme and dumb. I have never once seen it esposed by anyone in the real world. Limiting opportunities to practice bad behavior and reenforcing the positive does not mean you let the negative go without doing something. Might mean you need to manage! Might mean interrupting. Might mean redirecting. Might mean a different command. Might mean all of them. Does not mean 'sit there and watch the dog do whatever the heck it wants'.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Bet there is an entire subset, I have run into them...... That believe you should just ignore what you do not like... No interupt, redirect, etc...
> 
> And for your example... ACDs wrote the book on manipulation. Feed an ACD from the table, he will not come back begging at the next meal. He will jump on the table and help himself to whatever the heck he wants.... Don't you know it is his table anyway?


I think ignoring is useful if what the dog wants is your attention (a big problem with Pete). A redirect, interrupt or even correction won't be as valuable as my attention, unless I used some draconian methods. But of course, if a dog is getting the garbage, or pulling on the lead or barking just to hear their own voice, ignoring isn't going to do a damn thing.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> Oh. So you've met Kylie? And Thud? And Bug? And Frost?
> 
> ...It's still not an ACD thing. It's a confident and intelligent dog thing. Because dogs are all opportunistic.
> 
> And people talk about having met these people. I've never even found them online - *except when people want to use it to claim that positive trainers are big softies with out of control dogs*. Because that attitude is extreme and dumb. I have never once seen it esposed by anyone in the real world.


Just because you have not been exposed to it, does not mean it does not exist....

There is a woman who trains full time and has been for 20 years that trains EXACTLY that way...... 
I thought it was bull for the first five or six dogs I trained after her..... 

And I know what you are saying about your dogs... And I do not want to sound arrogant... But I have worked with a lot of dogs for a lot of years.... And ACDs that to a whole new. level.... 

I find it interesting or ironic if you will.... That you get offended by the ignore comments. 

But heck in some circles, I mention a leash correction and get accused of abusing dogs.... It has happened more than once...


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I find it interesting or ironic if you will.... That you get offended by the ignore comments.
> 
> But heck in some circles, I mention a leash correction and get accused of abusing dogs.... It has happened more than once...


That would only be ironic if CptJack and I were calling you abusive for using leash corrections... which we don't, because I believe we both use leash corrections sometimes.

I'm not offended by people implying that positive trainers ignore bad behavior, really; I'm just tired of it. I will call it out when I see it, because I don't like to see the idea that positive trainers use that method perpetuated. I'm sure you're right and that some people do train that way, but none of the DF regulars do, that I know of. It's probably a small subset of people who don't really understand training very well.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> That would only be ironic if CptJack and I were calling you abusive for using leash corrections... which we don't, because I believe we both use leash corrections sometimes.
> 
> I'm not offended by people implying that positive trainers ignore bad behavior, really; I'm just tired of it. I will call it out when I see it, because I don't like to see the idea that positive trainers use that method perpetuated. I'm sure you're right and that some people do train that way, but none of the DF regulars do, that I know of. It's probably a small subset of people who don't really understand training very well.


Yep, you believe correctly. I do in fact use leash correction. I have also used, under very specific circumstances, electronic collars (deaf dog, snake training). There are no abuse accusations, here.

Also, my head really hurts so keeping it short but agreed to the rest of your post, too.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Anyway, my point wasn't that ACDs aren't special and magical, because I'm sure they are.  My point was that ignoring bad behavior is a pretty useless training strategy with any breed. Interrupt, redirect, and reward for the behavior you want. Works well with any breed.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea that whole "simple ignoring the behavior" thing doesn't work with... pretty much every dog I've ever known, either. Good thing there aren't any advocates of it around here. :|


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Bet there is an entire subset, I have run into them...... That believe you should just ignore what you do not like... No interupt, redirect, etc...


There's a subset of people who do anything bad.

Given in every field, game, sport (human or otherwise), job, etc. 

The problem is acting like the subset of the bottom using whatever training method like crap is the norm or saying like it's an absolute fact that "all" who do it that way do it like <insert crappy thing here>.


And the more I hear about ACDs and how smart and confident they are, the more I want one.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I'm actually trying to imagine what life with Squash would be like if I simply ignored behaviors and... it's sort of horrifying.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I would have a chewed-up wall and no socks, because they would all be shredded. And Casper would have drawn blood on several people by now.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I might actually have been trampled to death by now.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Ya'll act like this stuff is not out there...
_Undesirable behaviors are neither rewarded nor punished. Where possible, the behavior is simply ignored. _
http://suite101.com/article/positive-reinforcement-dog-training-a106713

_. "This method fails to help dogs understand which behaviors they should avoid and worse, by ignoring unwanted behavior, it allows the dogs to actually get rewarded for these behaviors." _

http://www.care.com/pet-care-understanding-popular-dog-training-methods-p1017-q20595650.html

by either reinforcing desirable behaviors or ignoring undesirable behaviors. You are in training with your dog all the time. 
http://www.geronimos.com/PetPerspectives4.html

As I said there is an entire group of folks that believe in ignoring what you do not want. 
Some of them credentialed and degreed....

So next time you decid you are going to hate or be tired of a comment like OwnedbyACDs makes... Understand that the IGNORE mindset is out there.... And they call themselves positive trainers.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Anyway, my point wasn't that ACDs aren't special and magical, because I'm sure they are.  My point was that ignoring bad behavior is a pretty useless training strategy with any breed. Interrupt, redirect, and reward for the behavior you want. Works well with any breed.


But my point is..... I understand why "ownbyacds" made those comments.... There are "ignore" people out there.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

My annoyance with the repeated similar comments from OwnedbyACDs and others around here is not so much the misunderstanding, mischaracterization and subsequent dismissal of an entire method that many people here use successfully (which is annoying enough), but the implication that "simple ignoring" would work for just "any old dog" (eg, not hers)... when none of the regular posters here that I'm aware of think such a thing would work for ANY dog regardless of the breed.

ETA: That is... I do not deny that there are people out there who do advocate it, but no one here does or thinks it works so why is it CONSTANTLY part of the discussion? It would be like me saying "haha guys just try that jerking your dog around on a prong stuff with an Alaskan and see where it gets you" in every single training thread when... no one here really advocates jerking dogs around on a prong.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Anyway, my point wasn't that ACDs aren't special and magical, because I'm sure they are.  My point was that ignoring bad behavior is a pretty useless training strategy with any breed. Interrupt, redirect, and reward for the behavior you want. Works well with any breed.



And ACDs are not special.. But they do take things to a different level. I know it is hard to say that without sounding like it is a "my dog is better than your dog" situation..

But they just take things up a notch.... Not all of them. As there are extremes in every breed. But...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> My annoyance with the repeated similar comments from OwnedbyACDs and others around here is not so much the misunderstanding, mischaracterization and subsequent dismissal of an entire method that many people here use successfully (which is annoying enough), but the implication that "simple ignoring" would work for just "any old dog" (eg, not hers)... when none of the regular posters here that I'm aware of think such a thing would work for ANY dog regardless of the breed.
> 
> ETA: That is... I do not deny that there are people out there who do advocate it, but no one here does or thinks it works so why is it CONSTANTLY part of the discussion? It would be like me saying "haha guys just try that jerking your dog around on a prong stuff with an Alaskan and see where it gets you" in every single training thread when... no one here really advocates jerking dogs around on a prong.


What you have two ends of the spectrum.... Making assumptions......

And I find it amazing that ya'll have not come commonly come across the "ignore" crowd.... 

I thought it was well known... I bump into the all the time...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes but the "ignore crowd" is not HERE... no more than the "level 7 prong correction" crowd is. So if on _every dang thread_ someone brought up how their dog/breed wouldn't respond to level 7 prong corrections, I'd be just as irritated as I am by when "haha you can't just ignore my dog" does.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> But my point is..... I understand why "ownbyacds" made those comments.... There are "ignore" people out there.


So because people like that are apparently "out there," we should just disregard comments about it here instead of pointing out that it's not a great way to train? Regardless of whether or not those people exist, we don't train that way, so when we see people implying that all breeds besides ACDs are trained that way -- that it's the normal and common way to train -- of course we're going to say something.

(Also, sorry for derailing the thread!  )


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't care what anyone says, that "pack leader" stuff just doesn't work with Alaskans.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Yes but the "ignore crowd" is not HERE... no more than the "level 7 prong correction" crowd is. So if on _every dang thread_ someone brought up how their dog/breed wouldn't respond to level 7 prong corrections, I'd be just as irritated as I am by when "haha you can't just ignore my dog" does.


Yea but..... I am sure the "ignore" thing has been mentioned...

And people post all over the place.... 
You an I for example communicate in two different places. At least to a degree....

Six months from now if a subject comes up, I may or may not remember where I saw something that pertains to the subject today....


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sassafras said:


> My annoyance with the repeated similar comments from OwnedbyACDs and others around here is not so much the misunderstanding, mischaracterization and subsequent dismissal of an entire method that many people here use successfully (which is annoying enough), but the implication that "simple ignoring" would work for just "any old dog" (eg, not hers)... when none of the regular posters here that I'm aware of think such a thing would work for ANY dog regardless of the breed.


Not to mention that if you use shaping - ignoring the behavior is a good way to communicate that the behavior was wrong/not good enough (after all, if you're telling the dog what to do, it's not shaping as far as I understand). 

So, to me, it depends on the context. If Wally's chasing a cat outside and I don't want him to do it - then, no, ignoring is not going to do much but let him keep chasing the cat. If I'm presenting a problem/situation to him in a "formal" shaping session, ignoring is my no-reward marker and he understands it as such since he understands the process.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

sassafras said:


> I don't care what anyone says, that "pack leader" stuff just doesn't work with Alaskans.


And I don't care what anyone says, that spanking thing just doesn't work with papillons.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Say what you will, but when you're housetraining a waveherder, rubbing his nose in his poop is NOT going to work. Just don't even try it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> So because people like that are apparently "out there," we should just disregard comments about it here instead of pointing out that it's not a great way to train? Regardless of whether or not those people exist, we don't train that way, so when we see people implying that all breeds besides ACDs are trained that way -- that it's the normal and common way to train -- of course we're going to say something.
> 
> (Also, sorry for derailing the thread!  )


I don't think anyone said or implied that anything works with all breeds except ACDs.

All OWNed said was ignoring does not work with ACDs. 

I added.... ACDs will not be ignored.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And I find it amazing that ya'll have not come commonly come across the "ignore" crowd....


Most of the people I run into are more into the (mis)use of what I guess is called "old school training" (i.e. negative reinforcement). I don't know/get into the training war labels, forgive me if I'm incorrectly using words/expressions.

Either that or trying to repeat what they saw on Dog Whisperer. 

People are shocked Wally behaves like he does without using those methods - let alone ignoring the dog for behavior. Of course, when I try to explain shaping and how I used it - either I suck royally at explaining it or it's a foreign concept. Probably the former.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

KBLover said:


> Not to mention that if you use shaping - ignoring the behavior is a good way to communicate that the behavior was wrong/not good enough (after all, if you're telling the dog what to do, it's not shaping as far as I understand).
> 
> So, to me, it depends on the context. If Wally's chasing a cat outside and I don't want him to do it - then, no, ignoring is not going to do much but let him keep chasing the cat. If I'm presenting a problem/situation to him in a "formal" shaping session, ignoring is my no-reward marker and he understands it as such since he understands the process.



You mean you would not beat your dog for not catching the cat?


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And ACDs are not special.. But they do take things to a different level. I know it is hard to say that without sounding like it is a "my dog is better than your dog" situation.


Actually to me it sounds more like "We are better than you because we can own ACDs"
Its annoying cause I knows that I is smarter then all yous together 

Anyways regarding the "ignore" crowd. The only thing I've ever heard anyone semi respectable say to just ignore and do nothing is with stuff when the dog want your attention like aiw mention. Stuff like puppy whining and I guess maybe over excitement. If those don't count then I guess I haven't come across the "ignore" crowd either. Then again, I don't exactly hang around with random self proclaimed trainers irl or go searching for random training articles online. *shrug*


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

Aussie's will go and go... until they stop. There's not an "off" switch per say. Ammy could run for days as long as we're outside. She can chew everything to pieces inside if she's not watched or if she's bored. This isn't really a leave home for hours and hours with no excercise breed. Ammy had some stomach upset last week and I rested her for two days, she tore up her first pair of shoes and was crazy hyper. I don't know how people can get aussie's and never work them. Oh and the off switch doesn't usually come on until bed time at 10 pm .


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> You mean you would not beat your dog for not catching the cat?


Hahahaha

Nah, as long as he chased it out of the yard, I'll let it slide 

Now if it's a squirrel...now that's a rodent and his breed was used as a rodent killer so - yeah I starve him for the rest of the day. Maybe then he'll get the squirrel next time.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

zhaor said:


> Actually to me it sounds more like "We are better than you because we can own ACDs"
> Its annoying cause I knows that I is smarter then all yous together
> 
> *


Well.... It in not meant to sound that way..... And if it is annoying well....



KBLover said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> Nah, as long as he chased it out of the yard, I'll let it slide
> 
> Now if it's a squirrel...now that's a rodent and his breed was used as a rodent killer so - yeah I starve him for the rest of the day. Maybe then he'll get the squirrel next time.


Starvation is a powerful tool.... You are learning....


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I don't think anyone said or implied that anything works with all breeds except ACDs.
> 
> All OWNed said was ignoring does not work with ACDs.


I think it's more of a general impression that we've gleaned from reading hundreds and hundreds of her posts.  This recent one came to mind:



> But, cattle dogs are a bit different then most other breeds, its like they almost need to know there is come kind of negative consequence for not choosing "right" so to speak. In no way am I cruel, I dont "get after" them or use harsh methods (think CM). They are raised to LOVE interaction with me, I always make interaction the BEST thing in the world, so taking that away is like ... the worst punishment I can do.


In other words: Her dogs are trained the way we all train our dogs, and the way we tell newbies to the forums to train (e.g., if your puppy won't stop biting you, leave the room for a minute so that it understands that biting = fun stopping). OwnedbyACDs seems to attribute a lot of traits to ACDs that most dogs actually have, and to act like her training methods are uniquely tailored to ACDs when they are actually methods that most of us use on our varied breeds. 

I'm not picking on her or anything; I think it's great that she loves her breed so much. I'm simply pointing out that some of her impressions are a little off-base.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

That is quite a statement....

ACDs are different than a lot of dogs... But it revolves around the combination of intensity, drive, stoic, etc.

They can be basically pushy brats and bullies. But they do not own the monopoly on that.... Bel Mals, Dutchies, etc

People, even working dog people talk about Bel Mals. A common term with them is they go from zero to 11 on a one to ten scale.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Chihuahua: Socialize! Treat her like any other dog or she will end up a terror.

Border Terrier: This dog will chase things. Don't be surprised. Cats, squirrels, other dogs, even deer.

Siberian Husky (I think Faxon is primarily husky now that I know her better): They make noise! Rooing, howling, barking... Be prepared.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I can't think of anything on Labs...

Big and clutzy maybe...


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## HicktownJuliet (Aug 26, 2012)

The Sandy dog - Loud, moody, cute, velcro like, jumpy, but at the same time sweet. They might be tiny, but they are just as active as a big dog! (Btw she is a "PomChi")

The Sir William - Spoiled, moody, stubborn, a person magnet, they will listen to you only when they see fit. They are also very picky eaters. But they can be the sweetest little things when they want to be. Get "fat" easy. (He is a Shih Tzu/Bichon cross)

The Dally - Active. Hyper. Shy. Protective. THEY SHED. Lots. Extreme velcro dog. Pretty, and that attracts lots of people. (Catahoula mix)


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

White Swiss shepherds: softer and more sensitive than typically expected of a shepherd.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Welsh springer spaniel- 

They are Velcro, and it can be awesome to have a little furry shadow, bu it does predispose them to SA. I haven't met one with full blown SA and they do fine at home alone, but they all tend to bark at least a little and get anxious when their people leave. Watson *acts* like he would go home with any stranger, but as soon as they take the leash and get out of reach of me, he plants his bum on the floor and whines.

Can be timid with strangers. Being reserved is in the breed standard, but in some lines it has gone too far. Many breeders now are breeding away from this though and there are more confident dogs around. Socialization is key. It does make them great watchdogs as they will sound scary and bark at anyone suspicious who comes to your home, but don't have a drive to actually be aggressive.

The males especially are slow to mature. You will hear "how old is he? 10 months? Oh, I thought he would've grown out of that behavior by now." Haha. It does make them entertaining though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

zhaor said:


> Actually to me it sounds more like "We are better than you because we can own ACDs"
> Its annoying cause I knows that I is smarter then all yous together


Average households are the absolute crap ones; DF members are better. Average households shouldn't own/can't handle X, Y, or Z breed, but I can because I'm an above average home. We have a lot of ego, as dog owners, and I don't think that's the worst thing in the world, really, but it can get frustrating.

Look, some breeds won't do well in some homes, or with some owners - they're not prepared, the fit is bad, the commitment isn't there, whatever. That's what this thread was supposed to be about. If I denied that that happened, I'd be delusional. I also think a lot of us are more aware than the drawbacks and breed traits of the breeds we love. 

The point I find it mildly irritating, and just mildly, is when we go beyond saying that dog breeds have certain traits and need certain things, as a general rule, to implying that those traits and desires mean they are absolutely impossible to own as pets by owners who are not somehow superior and that other members don't understand and can't possibly understand how they aren't like other dogs. That may not be the implication, but that's how a LOT of the talk comes across, and it's frustrating. We have members here with PET mals (at least one, anyway) who manages just fine, and while she's a very good owner she isn't exactly doing S & R for 19 hours a day with the dog. I've FOSTERED working ACDs for months on end, and I'll be honest with you? Easier for me than beagles, whose personality traits clash with mine. In many ways Jack is the hardest dog I've ever hard, because he's so soft and that required me totally modify my behavior to be able to work with.

I've had HUNDREDS of dogs through my home, from all that rescue background. They're dogs. Some higher energy, some are more independent, some are are better suited to various sports, some are more inclined to get into trouble, some are shy, some are sharp, but at the end of the day... they're dogs. The consequences of ignoring behavior or not training may be greater with some than others (is), based on the breed or individual dog and the size of the dog or- whatever, but learning theory doesn't change. The very basic considerations of owning, training and raising don't change. 

You stay on top of them to make sure they form good habits, you limit the opportunity to form bad ones (by management, supervision, re-direction, interruption), find a way to communicate yes and no to the dog, teach the dog what you want it to know, socialize and provide ample exercise and stimulation/entertainment. The amount, duration, repetition of all those things will vary, based on the dog. 

I'm not saying they all require the same amount of those things, or the same sorts and expressions of them. I could never so much as walk Jack and Bug and the only consequence would be Bug getting fat. I could never TRAIN Frost or Jack and the sole extent of that would be them knowing fewer cute tricks. If I didn't train Bug, she would be overly exuberantly affectionate, but nothing bad. I don't supervise any of the three in the house and the full consequence of that is that they find interesting places to sleep. If I didn't socialize Kylie and Thud, they'd both be dangerous - Thud more than Kylie because of size - and bite risks, because Kylie is sharp/reactive AND shy, and Thud's guarding and protective instincts exist. If I don't physically exercise and mentally stimulate (train) them, they'd both be nightmares to live with. Thud can't be left unsupervised at all. Ever. He's 9 months old. Kylie could be left alone at 4 months old for a couple of hours. She'll get into things, but nothing she was told not to. 

But the very basics of how they are trained and owning them isn't any different than the very basics of owning and training the "easier" dogs, and while the quantity and frequency and intensity of what they need is different, WHAT they need isn't. Because again: They're dogs.

I will also admit a whole lot of frustration because suddenly I have more 'dog cred' than I did before - not because I've fostered tons and tons of dogs, not because I've always owned dogs, but because one of my dogs is currently a very large, very 'serious dog' mix and very obvious just a very serious dog. He is! He really is! He's drivey and high energy and stubborn and prone to being guard-y and herds things and just a pain in the butt (literally, given that he's bitten me there). But he's a dog. Nothing that's involved with him hasn't been involved in owning any other dog I've ever had, including the other dogs I have now. Nothing.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Stubborn or beggars. Beggar or stubborn, which to choose. 

Sorry can't do one, Cotons are both stubborn and beggars. I've never known a dog to stare at me as long as mine does.


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## MrsB (Aug 10, 2009)

All I can talk is about the Shiba we had:

THEY RUN! AND ESCAPE!

These don't walk, they RUN, a LOT (hence Shiba500), and if you let them out of leash, say bye bye, and he has a VERY strong pray drive...oh and VERY springy legs, so a HIGH fence is a must, they SHED, a LOT!! all year round...

Clean dogs! Definitely not a barker. SUPER easy to house train, smart!! Learns tricks easily, but you can call the name until you are blue in the face and if he doesnt want to come, he wont LOL
they can be SUPER sweet and loyal to one person...and did I mention they shed?


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

CptJack said:


> *snip



yup internet arguments pretty much all comes down to ego and pride. I think it might even be a character requirement for long term members on a forum.  A forum environment feeds our egos.

At best, maybe a person can take pride in not being as prideful as other members? 

I'm proud of the way I can handle my dog even though a cardboard box is probably enough to train and handle him.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

zhaor said:


> yup internet arguments pretty much all comes down to ego and pride. I think it might even be a character requirement for long term members on a forum.  A forum environment feeds our egos.
> 
> At best, maybe a person can take pride in not being as prideful as other members?
> 
> I'm proud of the way I can handle my dog even though a cardboard box is probably enough to train and handle him.


I definitely have an ego! I feel superior when I'm out on a walk and someone else's dog is acting like a fool - until one of mine decides to act like a fool. I DEFINITELY get smug and self-congratulatory about things involving dogs (and everything else in life). Sometimes it's an 'At least I don't-' and sometimes it's a 'SEE THIS THING I DID! AREN'T I SPECIAL'. I DO try to keep it in perspective, though - and then I get ego about that - and mostly stay proud of my DOGS. Because they're awesome.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I think it's sometimes tough on the internet to really say what you mean... Or at least for tone to come across correctly. I don't think it's all ego, although I don't think pride in the way you handle your dogs is something that is bad either. I'm proud of my dogs, I think they're amazing animals and I'm proud of how well behaved they are and of our training exploits together. And no I DON'T think most people would have done as much as I have with the same dogs. Maybe that's arrogant, I don't know. It's what I feel is the truth though.

I am very guilty of warning about Mia... it's not that I think I'm super special and no one could handle her (I mean really.... she's 8 lbs so I'm pretty sure anyone coul manhandle her into things if they wanted). However, she's a difficult dog. And not in a 'oh man, no one could ever handle this dog' way but really a 'Are you sure you WANT to deal with this dog?' way. 

Some dogs are easier than others. Some dogs don't belong in every home. My family has all had a lot of dogs and many working breeds.... I don't think any of them would want Mia. Could they make it work? Yeah, but they'd not be happy and she wouldn't be either. The truth of the matter is that the only people in real life that seem to want Mia are people really into dogs and training. If something were to happen to me she would go to someone with more dog experience than 'just pet'. It's not that she needs a 'sport home' or anything but just that in my experience Mia's behavior tends to clash more often than not with 'good pet' material.

Honestly, for me it's not so much me wanting to feel superior, it's me wanting to be protective of her. She's a wonderful dog. I don't want to tell someone 'yeah get a papillon' and they end up with a Mia and realize the dog is way too vocal/too busy/too clingy/etc. So maybe that comes off as sounding elite.... it's not meant to. It's meant to just be a 'are you really really sure?' I've seen some dogs much like Mia that end up in hands that don't want them and it's really just sad to me. 

There are plenty of dog breeds/types that I would not want to deal with owning.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

I don't care who I agree or don't agree with.

But I belong to the "Ignore the bad, reward the good" & "Pack leader" (if all you don't like it... AKA "Bread Winner", Parent leader; "NON-CM" but totally the new studies on wolves... as parent leaders, dominant play act, in fact is an "acted out performance" in total "trust" of the parent shown by the "juvinile wolf pup" aka "child" {hence *protect at all cost by parents *even sometimes eating first when food is scarce} for the parents to always protect & norish the pup... ) crowd.

But I own a Pyr not ACDs.
I deeply even believe in breed trait difference (hell even humans don't all wear the same clothes and don't want to even if they have to I am sure) when it comes to different "combo" of trainings (one set of training may not even work for a breed type... i.e. Greyhounds, its painful for them to "sit", XL breed dogs taller than your crotch, don;t train "leg weave" or going through legs... you need stilts for that, or don't ask certain breeds to do agility course like ACDs... not too good for their joints when they get old... etc.) 
*= different strokes for different folks!!!*

Roman also wants my *attention*... 
(as a child and my DD does, when a child is "rejecting" attention from a parent; he/she would be hiding something or probably doing what they shouldn't eg. drugs... )
Yes and he is a PYR... who are by breed standard supposed to be "aloof" and don't show too much affection (read link).
Again like I said, "A white retriever" is a compliment to me...
(Roman retrieves and swims... play frisbees too... check my first post's link; read the last few statements that "if" a Pyr retrieves... to cherish that... etc.)
And also reinforcing that "he as much belongs to me as I him".

Very unPyr like... BUT that's with "Roman" (Not me) having to "adjust to my house rules" (not going to change my house rules as much as I love him... for my kids nor dogs; parents is to be loved and obeyed like in bible).
And it is done with "love" and "trust". Trust *** utmost important when training a pyr (IMHO).

***Absolute trust can only be achieved via non-abusive methods (so dog does not become fear-aggressive and have "any" reservations of the owners... = why yah, Great Pyr is not an easy dog to train and really not for any "newbie" trainers or dog owners... very easy to turn your Pyr "against" you, hence needs sensitive handling due to Pyrs also being smart, thinks Pyrs know better and you the owner have to either create scenario "create protection methods" etc. "or danger scenario" where owner actually bails out the Pyr {show partnership & teamwork of man & dog; why real life farm situations is great for Pyrs... farmers can "if they want, not everyone does or know how" easily show even via his/her flock that ultimately every animal is dependent on him/her} eg. like the Pyr who went into an ice patch & owners saved the dog... ). 

Read & researched that theory, other Pyr proff (owners & breeders, or even go to Great Pyrenees "real life" stories) can attest I am sure... takes many pyr owners to contribute to a true testament of that breed of course.

I love "ignore the bad & reward the good"...
You take learnings (and everyone can learn everyday, its very "norishing" for the minds) of what you agree with and go and try them out... like a great cooking tips why not???
You don't "don't" listen to what you think is mumbo jumbo (Like maybe most ACD owners or owners with certain breed types maybe should skip what I think is good)... simple really. 

Everyone "humans" is already "doing this" (Ignore the bad) in reality (like escaping reality for even that short while... eg. letting the Boston Terroist go under radar even collecting welfare checks till they bomb that reality into the daily lives of people = we taxpayers PAY "welfare checks" for these terrorist to bomb us, smart USA right???... eg. everywhere if you let reality check sinks in...). 
Main stream media is even appling that theory "ignore the bad" to the utmost... they sure don't cover everything like they want you to think.

Even if applied... "You" (the dog owner) knows what is "good" and advantageous for you and your dog... Say if you work that 10hrs a day... You need that crate (so dog don't destroy your home if your dog is a chewer and needs monitoring) to keep that dog in... Not my cup of tea but... Guess "if" its the best choice you can make and you don't have other options... who am I (ignore the "bad" {but good IMO} from me) to tell you "how" even if I believe that that long crate time is "cruel" since I know what kidney infections is like???

KWIM???


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> I think it's sometimes tough on the internet to really say what you mean... Or at least for tone to come across correctly. I don't think it's all ego, although I don't think pride in the way you handle your dogs is something that is bad either. I'm oroud of my dogs, I think they're amazing animals and I'm proud of how well behaved they are and of our training exploits together. And no I DON'T think most people would have done as much as I have with the same dogs. Maybe that's arrogant, I don't know. It's what I feel is the truth though.
> 
> I am very guilty of warning about Mia... it's not that I think I'm super special and no one could handle her (I mean really.... she's 8 lbs so I'm pretty sure anyone coul manhandle her into things if they wanted). However, she's a difficult dog. And not in a 'oh man, no one could ever handle this dog' way but really a 'Are you sure you WANT to deal with this dog?' way.
> 
> ...


The last line is the thing, though. Labs and beagles- totallyy viewed as family friendly, easy dogs, right? You couldn't pay me enough. Seriously. Scent pounds and labs make me nuts. I'd be a ball of frustrated. That doesn't mean they're too much dog, it means they're the wrong dog for me. 

Warning about traits is fine. The point the line crossed into me saying something was 'too much dog for you' as a general statement, along with implications that a dog requiring more than totally ignoring negative behaviour is unusual. Too broad, by far.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Add:
While some trainers may think, converting dogs to do human agreed actions is great for the dogs and to top it off, have that dog try to learn how ever limited they can understand human language and commands (dogs aren't wolves as humans aren't dogs)....

I simply believe that if you go live in a different country (I did, so I know)... Its actually "nice" to either have some one talk your language (say you talk dog language how at ease is that dog?) or humans when respecting that culture (say dog culture) to actually learn to speak that language to ease one's own pathway in that country (talk dog language, help dog trust you and to try & *want to* communicate back)...

Simple theory...
Humans are of higher intelligence right???
Should be easier for us to learn dog than dog learn us.

2 way streets.


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## Emily1188 (Jun 21, 2011)

Cardis are cattle dogs. Expect all that comes with it, good, bad, and ugly. This is not a lap dog and the vast majority of them range from dog tolerant to dog selective. They have a tendency to RG with other animals. Their bark is...remarkable and they use it liberally.

Malinois... live with one first. Seriously. It is not about nipping, needing exercise, loving toys... That stuff happens all the time with lots of dogs. Hell, that describes a Labrador. Mals need constant direction and good management to keep them from becoming very problematic, very quickly. My favorite metaphor is that they are like a spinning top. The top is going to spin no matter what, so you'd better push it in the right direction, or else it's going to spin off of a cliff and you're in trouble. You're going to be constantly nudging and pushing this top or you'll lose it. They form obsessions with remarkable speed and intensity, if you're not careful. It is A LOT to deal with. I love them and I don't mind the constant maintenance but it is extensive, and Malinois are extremely complicated and sensitive dogs. I don't mean sensitive as in nervy/fearful/soft even, I just mean extremely perceptive (and responsive) to change and detail.

That is not something I could have told you about the breed before having lived with one and now interacting with other Mal owners regularly.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> The last line is the thing, though. Labs and beagles- totallyy viewed as family friendly, easy dogs, right? You couldn't pay me enough. Seriously. Scent pounds and labs make me nuts. I'd be a ball of frustrated. That doesn't mean they're too much dog, it means they're the wrong dog for me.
> 
> Warning about traits is fine. The point the line crossed into me saying something was 'too much dog for you' as a general statement, along with implications that a dog requiring more than totally ignoring negative behaviour is unusual. Too broad, by far.


Same. I would never want a lab or a beagle. Just not a good match at all. Could handle them yes but do not want to.

I think sometimes it's hard when you've been around dog training enough to see REALLY clueless people. I don't know how to make that sound nice/not snotty. :/ But not everyone is equally dog savvy and there's definitely breeds that I would not want to see in certain hands.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Same. I would never want a lab or a beagle. Just not a good match at all. Could handle them yes but do not want to.
> 
> I think sometimes it's hard when you've been around dog training enough to see REALLY clueless people. I don't know how to make that sound nice/not snotty. :/ But not everyone is equally dog savvy and there's definitely breeds that I would not want to see in certain hands.


I get it. All tut time in rescue exposed me to the people, too and some are just cheerfully oblivious. I guess for me I ultimately object to the idea of too much dog, period. Also some [again mild] annoyance at the idea that dogs are like training wheels and younger an easy one first and then get 'more dog'. Sometimes people want a dog that's a poor fit or they're just clueless or apathetic enough to plop onward. There's nothing wrong with trying to steer them toward a dog that does fit, or point out drawbacks. 

But it's not about the dog - its about the owner and home. Someone telling me that a BC or GSD was too much dog for me would offend the snot out of me. Someone telling me that I'd be miserable with a lab wouldn't. 

And only most of that is without introducing that if you think some dogs are more dogs than others, the reverse is that the others andre less. Which jut bugs me.


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## 3dogs_toomany_notenough (Jul 26, 2013)

Plott Hound- You might as well have gotten yourself a mini-lion, meaning, as good and gentle of a family dog as they can be this is not a dog to be trifled with. They will never back down from anything and they have a LONG memory.

Lab- Some of them are puppies until they pass. They could steal things, destroy things and consume things that you love (mine liked underwear). Or they could just have the energy of a ferret on cocaine literally until they die. 

Poodle/Pomerainian- They bark and cannot get enough attention.

I still can't figure out how these three live in one house with me but I wouldn't change it for the world


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## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

Frenchies - 

1) STUBBORN
2) Total ham and loves attention. Some may believe they were put on this earth solely to be loved and adored by the public.
3) QUIRKY - they just have the silliest, quirkiest personalities and behaviors. 


I'm not really sure what Abbie is so I can't make a fair estimate on her possible breeds


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## SnapV (May 14, 2013)

Lab x bernese: become best friend with your vacuum cleaner because if you don't you'll be able to assemble a brand new lab x bernese every week because of the shedding.



aiw said:


> Bernese Mountain Dogs: Take years to grow up, but it feels like they die a moment later.


This makes me so sad. When I adopted my pup Koopa (whose litter had been found outside) we thought he might be lab x bc but when the vet told us he was probably lab x bernese (and this is more and more likely since he has jowls and is now 62lbs at exactly 6 months) this is one of the first things I thought. I hope he takes to the lab side for his lifespan.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CptJack said:


> But it's not about the dog - its about the owner and home. Someone telling me that a BC or GSD was too much dog for me would offend the snot out of me. Someone telling me that I'd be miserable with a lab wouldn't.


My thoughts exactly, and especially agree with your sentiment about the 'training wheels' mentality. 

Some dogs are easier/harder - but there's no absolute ranking scale or anything of that nature since it depends on who the dog is matched with. A Mia would be easier for me than a dog that just would rather lay around and do little. Mia would excite and fascinate me, the low key napping dog would probably get both of us frustrated (he just wants to nap or get things done so he go back to eating and sleeping and I would wonder why he's not interested in doing much of anything).


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

*Rottweiler * Difficult to own due to social pressures and liability.

As cute and cuddly as they are... They are NOT giant Teddy Bears

They MUST be trained and kept busy (give them a job) If they are not trained and kept busy they might find other things to do 
with their time that you won't appreciate.

Socializing and training must continue for the life of the dog. They are smart dogs so they need an owner that is very in touch 
with everything the dog is doing all the time. 

Same sex dogs might fight. If they do... it is not fun to try to break up.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

another about newfies

they look like a bear
they have the strength of a bear
they're lazy like a bear
they play rough like a bear
and curious like a black bear.

get the picture? Expect people to think that you own a black bear, that trait make colourful bandannas our best friend. Even people who still think she's a bear will approach when she's wearing her pink camo bandana.


edit: It's doesn't help that most don't really bark a lot. They're the strong silent type


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I get it. All tut time in rescue exposed me to the people, too and some are just cheerfully oblivious. I guess for me I ultimately object to the idea of too much dog, period. Also some [again mild] annoyance at the idea that dogs are like training wheels and younger an easy one first and then get 'more dog'. Sometimes people want a dog that's a poor fit or they're just clueless or apathetic enough to plop onward. There's nothing wrong with trying to steer them toward a dog that does fit, or point out drawbacks.
> 
> But it's not about the dog - its about the owner and home. Someone telling me that a BC or GSD was too much dog for me would offend the snot out of me. Someone telling me that I'd be miserable with a lab wouldn't.
> 
> And only most of that is without introducing that if you think some dogs are more dogs than others, the reverse is that the others andre less. Which jut bugs me.


I get your frustration, even if I do disagree on some points. I do think it isn't right to view some dogs as "more dog" than others, as if owning another breed somehow makes you less of a trainer or owner versus owning a specific breed. I also think that a lot of the comments made about certain breeds could apply to individuals of ANY breed.

I do, however, like to see a first time dog owner set themselves up for success and I do think that different dog breeds, as general categories, do vary in their level of risk when it comes to potential issues. I felt the same way about different horses for different handlers/riders. Granted, you can find individuals of any breed that break the mold, but I think there is some use in viewing breeds as a starting point of categorizing dogs...otherwise there would be no point in developing breeds for different uses. So, yes, I am more inclined to steer inexperienced dog owners to breeds I view as being "lower risk." That does not mean I view an experienced dog owner as being "better" than an inexperienced dog owner any more than a inexperienced rider is less than an experienced one. Every person out there with experience started out without it.

I know in my own personal experience there were times I thought I was up to the challenge of a certain dog only to find I was in over my head. I made it through those experiences, but they weren't fun or pretty and if I could avoid having someone else have to go through that, I'd like to. To me, that's not elitism, but more me not wanting someone else to have to learn the hard way if they don't have to.

I also disagree with the idea of looking at some dogs as "training wheels" as well. Different dogs fit owners with different personalities and lifestyle types. Some dogs fit owners who are more laid back and happy go lucky. Others are great for introverts who train for distance running. Some are great for people who are very into details...happily, I think there is a dog out there to fit almost any person's personality. People probably will be happiest if they go for dogs that fit them.

There were horses I was told I couldn't ride by more experienced riders. In some cases, it was because I just didn't have the experience yet to be able to handle that horse. In others, it was that our personalities just weren't a mesh. In no case did that mean that the horses I could ride were any "less" and I was actually grateful that there were people there to save me from myself. When I did ride other horses, that's because they fit me where I was then and, sometimes, I chose to ride a horse I'd ridden back then just for the pleasure of it.

I like to think that no one here in their comparison of breeds means to belittle anyone else's favorite breed or imply that they think owning their breed makes them superior in any way. One of the things I love about owning a mix is that he's just that...a mix...a loveable mutt with no claims to superiority except in my own heart and mind. In fact, many of the things one person finds positive in a breed, another will just as strongly find as a negative.

I'm probably rambling too much here, but I guess my point is that I see both sides to this issue.


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## Fade (Feb 24, 2012)

Husky - Very difficult. You can never seem to give them enough.

Basset Hound - More stubborn then you can possibly imagine.

American Bully - A D D


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> There were horses I was told I couldn't ride by more experienced riders. In some cases, it was because I just didn't have the experience yet to be able to handle that horse. In others, it was that our personalities just weren't a mesh. In no case did that mean that the horses I could ride were any "less" and I was actually grateful that there were people there to save me from myself. When I did ride other horses, that's because they fit me where I was then and, sometimes, I chose to ride a horse I'd ridden back then just for the pleasure of it.


I like this analogy. I'm a very good rider. Far more experienced with horses than I am with dogs. Western, English, hunter-jumper, etc. I went to Uruguay last fall on a horse trip. The ranch owner had some amazing spirited criollo horses, responsive to the slightest movement and full of energy. She trusted me to ride her own mare and one of her most sensitive horses and I had a wonderful time riding those for 2 days. But when it came time to choose a horse for a several day long trek? I picked a solid working quarter horse mix that had energy and git-up-and-go but was steady and wouldn't require my constant attention. 
Because that was the horse that suited both me and the circumstances. Just because someone can handle an animal- horse or dog- doesn't mean that the animal is either right for their lifestyle OR what that person would enjoy the most. 

I love the pit bulls I work with, but they are the total opposite of what I want in a dog to own. I like independent hound types and they are velcro dogs that _need_ to be near their people all the time. I have a blast training them, even the super high energy intense ones, but they aren't the dog for me. I've got an ACD mix staying with me right now. I can handle her just fine but that doesn't make her a match for my personality either.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I am so sick of this, too. "Ignore bad behavior" is not something anyone with a brain does. They don't reward it, and they don't stand around and let the dog do whatever they want. Redirect, interrupt, give another command, whatever. Otherwise it's a self-rewarding thing and NO ONE ON DF has EVER suggested doing any such thing! If I don't interrupt and stop Jack from eating out of the garbage, he'll keep doing it and taking it further. Because he's a DOG. A soft, sweet, easy going, generally well behaved dog, but he STILL is a dog. Which means opportunistic.
> 
> I hate this crap. HATE HATE HATE.


Not saying EVERY ACD is like this, the "ignore game" will work with buddy because he was previously abused & turns into liquid if you even think of saying the word no. 

But people also think that "no nonsense" means I am harsh & "tssst" my dogs or punch them in their neck. The most I do is a hard stare or a body block to let them know "hey ... Anymore of this & it's time out time" most ACDs (I always use them as an example because I have the most experience with them, but I am sure there are other breeds or dogs like this too) will laugh at the ignore game or, just "push" harder to get that they want. Sometimes you have to show them that if they keep it up ... They won get ANYTHING at ALL.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Well, I did a skim through this thread and didn't see any Greater Swiss Mountain Dog (if I missed it I'm sorry). 
I've got some warnings though, assuming Caeda is typical of the breed, and aside from her "small" (70lb) size, she seems to be, at least according to vets and what I've read. 

1) Stubborn/willful 
2) Independant
3) Strong (as in Caeda is WAY stronger than Diesel was, and he was a 90lb GSD)

I do have to add though, to balance the warnings; VERY forgiving (my training mistakes have been many, her faults don't reflect that quite as much as they should!). Tough, both mind and body. Very good health (though with Caeda being a runt, the possible hip problems associated with giants isn't an issue). Caeda can be the "unstoppable force", but when trained by the equally stubborn "unmovable object" things go shockingly well. Definitely not a dog for everybody, great for me though....of course I don't do well with velcro dogs, others do. To each their own  

I do know that Swissies are a relative of the Bermese, but from what I understand and have seen...temperament wise, very different dogs, and would have different warnings!


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I agree with what has been said about the Bernese. Susie' s, mother was a purebred Bernese, her father I suspect was the Lab x Border Collie next door to them. She was a snap to train for Agility but because of her build did not last long (hurt her shoulder on the A-frame) and at 9 years old acts like a 15 year old. I would never get another because of the short life-span and all the hair even though they are a friendly, easy to get along with dog.

Basenji are another breed, we never had any problem with our Greyhounds running off but we lost the first Basenji we had, was there one minute, gone the next and never did find her. Our second one was the same way, could never trust her outside unless she was on a lead. They can climb anything so a run has to have a roof on it or they are out, could never keep her in the average yard. Really like their looks and personality but will never get another one.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Not saying EVERY ACD is like this, the "ignore game" will work with buddy because he was previously abused & turns into liquid if you even think of saying the word no.
> 
> But people also think that "no nonsense" means I am harsh & "tssst" my dogs or punch them in their neck. The most I do is a hard stare or a body block to let them know "hey ... Anymore of this & it's time out time" most ACDs (I always use them as an example because I have the most experience with them, but I am sure there are other breeds or dogs like this too) will laugh at the ignore game or, just "push" harder to get that they want. Sometimes you have to show them that if they keep it up ... They won get ANYTHING at ALL.


What the heck is the "ignore game"?

What you described sounds like negative punishment. I.E. dog loses the chance to get/have/keep doing thing-I-want. Of course - that gets the point across.  

But I've never heard of the ignore game.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

Dobermans: Aggression. Be prepared.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

KBLover said:


> What the heck is the "ignore game"?
> 
> What you described sounds like negative punishment. I.E. dog loses the chance to get/have/keep doing thing-I-want. Of course - that gets the point across.
> 
> But I've never heard of the ignore game.


I believe what she's saying is that the ignore game is, for instance, the dog digging into the trash to forage and that if you just don't do anything at all it will stop the behavior. No redirection, no training of another behavior, no nothing. 

That... doesn't work with most dogs, ACD or not. That's what started this entire thing.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

packetsmom said:


> Granted, you can find individuals of any breed that break the mold, but I think there is some use in viewing breeds as a starting point of categorizing dogs...otherwise there would be no point in developing breeds for different uses.


Function modifies what the dog is best at learning/doing. Teaching a "standard" beagle to track is probably easier than trying to teach Wally to track because a beagle is more apt to "live through the nose" and follow scents more purposefully than the "standard" coton. So the function of a breed would still make sense because you don't have to teach a rottwewiler to herd when he'd rather protect or terrier to retrieve when he'd rather find the nearest hole he can barely fit into and get him a fox or such. 

If I want to follow a scent, I get a scent hound, if I want a silly dog who stands on his paws like he's human, I'll take Wally...er a coton. Different uses, different breeds. Still a point even beyond the "too much dog" stuff, imo.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> But it's not about the dog - its about the owner and home. Someone telling me that a BC or GSD was too much dog for me would offend the snot out of me. Someone telling me that I'd be miserable with a lab wouldn't.


What bugs me about people who say "Such and such breed is not for you..." is that a lot of times they say it and then I want to try said breed. I've been told German Shepherds would be too much for me. What is so magical about GSDs (or any other breed)? I'll let ya'll know when I get one. Its a challenge!

I wouldn't recommend all breeds to all people. But just because you're a first timer doesn't mean you can't successfully own a "difficult" dog. Its kind of insulting to say to someone who might be considering an Australian Shepherd (my breed) that they'd better stick with a Lab (typical dog for first timers, "easy") for their first go around. Lab does not equal Aussie. They aren't even close to an Australian Shepherd! Instead, it would be better to let them know the breeds strengths and weaknesses, perhaps better understand the breed if they haven't had a lot of interaction with them. Pepper didn't get to be so well mannered on the leash randomly. Thats 10 years of hard work. Don't fool anybody about your breed, not even yourself.  I'm sure Average Joe isn't the best home for an ACD, a GSD, a BC, an Aussie, etc, etc, etc... but if you know what you are getting into and you stick with your positive training (that doesn't mean ignoring the dog when he is doing laps around the house in the forbidden living room, Pepper Doodle) there shouldn't be an issue. Gotta be dedicated to your breeds' exercise and mental stimulation levels.

The good, the bad, and the ugly. Aussies can be BOSSY. Not dominant, bossy.


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

No, it doesn't sound like that at all Cpt.Jack, I believe what OwnedbyACD's meant was if your dog is barking for instance, instead of saying "no", you just ignore your dog till your dog stops. So you're basically ignoring the behavior and when they're quiet, you reward the good. For some it works, for others probably not.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> No, it doesn't sound like that at all Cpt.Jack, I believe what OwnedbyACD's meant was if your dog is barking for instance, instead of saying "no", you just ignore your dog till your dog stops. So you're basically ignoring the behavior and when they're quiet, you reward the good. For some it works, for others probably not.


Ehh... thats not how I would generally suggest fixing problem barking. Interrupt after alert barks (clap), redirect (call him into the kitchen), and provide an alternate behavior (sit quietly) seems to work better across the board.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> What bugs me about people who say "Such and such breed is not for you..." is that a lot of times they say it and then I want to try said breed. I've been told German Shepherds would be too much for me. What is so magical about GSDs (or any other breed)? I'll let ya'll know when I get one. Its a challenge!


I admit, I have this - big time. Tell me I can't? The heck with you, I danged sure can and you can sit there and watch me.

I'm not so bad that I'd go get a dog I absolutely didn't like to show someone up, but at the end of the day I'm pretty contrary! That said, so much is some indefinable thing for me that it just... is hard to pin down. I know what works and what doesn't and I can usually tell you why-

but it's not energy or intelligence. It's some combination of aloofness and heart. Everything else is negotionable, and no one but me's ever going to be able to pin down when that's there, or when some kind of clash is.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I admit, I have this - big time. Tell me I can't? The heck with you, I danged sure can and you can sit there and watch me.
> 
> I'm not so bad that I'd go get a dog I absolutely didn't like to show someone up, but at the end of the day I'm pretty contrary! That said, so much is some indefinable thing for me that it just... is hard to pin down. I know what works and what doesn't and I can usually tell you why-
> 
> but it's not energy or intelligence. It's some combination of aloofness and heart. Everything else is negotionable, and no one but me's ever going to be able to pin down when that's there, or when some kind of clash is.


^^This times a million^^

Someone can tell me that I could never handle a Beagle, a St. Bernard, or a Bichon and I would take less offense. I don't particularly like or want those breeds anyhow. GSDs... I do potentially want to rescue one. I love their personalities, their versatility, intelligence and they are just so majestic. Now I've the added bonus of throwing it in his face.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> ^^This times a million^^
> 
> Someone can tell me that I could never handle a Beagle, a St. Bernard, or a Bichon and I would take less offense. I don't particularly like or want those breeds anyhow. GSDs... I do potentially want to rescue one. I love their personalities, their versatility, intelligence and they are just so majestic. Now I've the added bonus of throwing it in his face.



Yeaaah, someone once told me I'd never be able to handle Thud (a couple of months ago, when he was @ 6 months old) because I was too 'soft'. 

Yeah, well, bite me.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree that a first-timer can certainly handle a "difficult dog" if they're prepared. I know a couple who recently adopted an AKK that my breeder friend had to rehome because this dog was too shy and nervous and was miserable in the show ring (she would never keep her tail up). My friend let them know all about the dog's personality, and they came to an event with us and met and walked her, and they decided to take her. She's their first dog. They are doing SO WELL with her, socializing her lots and doing classes and working with her positively to help her get over her fears. She is still shy and nervous, but I am amazed every time I see her by how much more confident she is than last time.

And look at Equinox, from here at DF... she got her GSD, a _working line_ GSD no less, when she was 15 years old. On paper, it should have gone all wrong -- she got him because she liked how the breed looks, and she had no dog experience -- but she learned a ton after she got him, and he sounds like an amazing dog. 

My first dog that was "all mine" as opposed to a family dog was a malamute/supposedly border collie -- so a 90lb, aloof, intense, active, intelligent, confident dog. I was a 17-year-old. I didn't know much about training, and although I used a few stupid techniques, I also had a fair bit of common sense, and he ended up amazing. He sold me on nordic breeds.

I don't think that "first-time owner" should be a deal-breaker for most breeds (there are a few I wouldn't like to see in a first-timer's hands, like a Fila or a CO for example, or a working Malinois, but the majority of breeds aren't that intense). I think that if the person has done a lot of research and is prepared for problems, and has a trainer and a support network (hopefully including a good breeder) they can go to for advice, things can work out great.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Yeaaah, someone once told me I'd never be able to handle Thud (a couple of months ago, when he was @ 6 months old) because I was too 'soft'.
> 
> Yeah, well, bite me.


It really rubs me the wrong way too. Especially with such a wealth of contradictory evidence. The best trained and worked dog at our park is a working line BC owned by a 75 year old man with a cane. So many DFers here have "difficult" breeds as a first dog or a rescue with some serious behaviour problems and have done beautifully. I'm sure we can all think of many examples. I think its very, very rarely a matter of *you can't* and more a matter of; are you willing? Is this really what you want?

If you're willing to put in the work day in and day out I think most people can own most dogs. The problem we run into is so many are rather more optimistic than they are committed. You can own a high drive dog and not be very active yourself, you can own a 'hard' dog if you're 'soft' yourself. You just have to be willing to adapt to give the dog what it needs, be that exercise or the right kind of training. Its not that people _can't_, it's more that they don't really want to. It doesn't suit them or make them happy. 

tl;dr I don't much like "you haven't got what it takes for my badass breed!" and prefer "This breed requires xyz, does this suit you and are you committed enough to make it happen?"


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> It really rubs me the wrong way too. Especially with such a wealth of contradictory evidence. The best trained and worked dog at our park is a working line BC owned by a 75 year old man with a cane.


Old man with a cane has nothing to do with it. I know a guy in a wheelchair with a hardassed Dutchie... That he trained himself. 

It has to do with other factors, what personality type is the owner, how experienced, and how dedicated and how much work are they willing to put into it. 

I am mentoring a first time dog owner with an ACD. That I vouched personally for this person... And pushed to get him a decent dog. I did so because I have known this young man since he was about 5 years old. He has over achieved his entire life. Sports, school, work, everything. He is a hard charging, hard playing, hard working. A "type A" personality if you will. 

And while we are talking about people being offended..... I really do not care if people do get offended when I say "few people" or them specifically cannot handle the breed. 

Because what offends me is.... Having to tell people that should have NEVER acquired the breed in the first place, that they have no choice but to take the dog in and have it put to sleep, because they did not or as is OFTEN the case, were not capable of training, managing and controlling the dog and things got so out of hand that the dog has become too much of a liability for it to every be a candidate for re homing. 
I did that 17 time in 2012... It SUCKS!

I am offended when I take a dog in to have it put down because the are too weak to do what to do what has to be done. I have done that 8 times since I have been involved with rescue. 

I am offended that so much time is taken out of my life trying to make a situation work that should have never been in the first place. 

I am offended when I have to take dogs off my rescue list, network list, or the facebook page that I started and manage independently of the rescue I manage, because they ran out of time at the shelter they were at and were put down....

Over time I have learned what types of people ACDs work with and what types they do not. And why.... 

Good ACDs are BOLD, COCKY, PUSHY, POSSESSIVE, OVER CONFIDENT, TENACIOUS, DRIVEY, OVER DEVOTED SUPER INTELLIGENT, CONTROL FREAKS....

You can Add Squirrelly, FLIGHTY, and over AGGRESSIVE to the poorly bred ones. 

Experience, knowledge and exposure have given me the right to say my breed may not be for you.

If I offend you..... Remember, I have probably saved you some heartache. 

People forget... This breed comes out of the womb not only with little to no bite inhibition, but rather they LIKE to bite. Biting solves problems, makes others do what THEY want... (the only caveat to the bite inhibition thing is that they almost cannot be made to bite those that they give their heart to. Problem is... Many people do not or are not capable of earning their heart)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

After a decade in rescue, johnny, I gotta tell you: you're deterring no one with that attitude who needs to be. Information is great. You can't do it? Nope. It's a challenge and a dare and some will meet it and some will fail, but it's not one bit helpfully as something to issue, because more will take it up just because it is, than would with flat information and respect.

Not about you caring who you offend- you're not offending me. I've has ACDs in my home as fosters for lengthy periods of time and found even the hardest ten times easier than thud and fifty times easier than Kylie, but you're shooting yourself in the foot but good.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> After a decade in rescue, johnny, I gotta tell you: you're deterring no one with that attitude who needs to be. Information is great. You can't do it? Nope. It's a challenge and a dare and some will meet it and some will fail, but it's not one bit helpfully as something to issue, because more will take it up just because it is, than would with flat information and respect.
> 
> Not about you caring who you offend- you're not offending me. I've has ACDs in my home as fosters for lengthy periods of time and found even the hardest ten times easier than thud and fifty times easier than Kylie, but you're shooting yourself in the foot but good.



You are welcome to come take over my responsibilities today.... I will make you the primary admin on my rescue page today and you can take it over.....

And yea, I talk a lot of people out of ACDs and steer them towards other breeds....

I have yet to shoot myself in the foot.....


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I was with a group of dog owners, talking about their dogs today. There were Doberman, GSD, and Belgian Malinios owners represented with me the only mix owner. Each mentioned how, the first time they owned one of these breeds, they felt left out when it came to sound training advice that would work with their dogs. One mentioned being told by professional trainers. to give up on her first GSD...that he was dangerous and beyond saving. That dog was now peacefully settled in a long down. Others had similar stories, most ending with, "And that's why I'm here, with people who 'get' dogs like mine."

All these owners, happily, had a similar personality type in that they each stubbornly refused to give up on their dogs or listen to the bad advice they were given. They were relentless in searching for more resources and different advice. That same tenacity that likely drew them to those breeds (I often think we choose dogs that either mirror who we are...or who we aspire to be) drove them to become the owner their dog needed.

I don't think I'm idealistic enough to believe every dog owner or even the "average" dog owner is going to go to those lengths. The sad examples of dogs just like these in rescues and shelters seem to match my idea of the sad reality. Yes, some people can and do manage to own one of these breeds as their first dog and do well, but for most, it requires that tenacity and a willingness to fight through whatever they have to in order to be what their dog needs.

I look at my own dog and I sometimes wonder...am I enough? I'm willing to sacrifice huge amounts of free time and get myself in better shape to do my best to be what he needs. I'm willing to watch hours of training videos, pour over books, and spend half of every weekend doing even more training to try to be what he needs. And...he isn't nearly as drivey as some of the other dogs I've seen.

I don't think it makes them elite or better...maybe more masochistic or blindly devoted or perhaps just less balanced in their lifestyle? I admire them even as I thank dog I don't have their dog. Mine already is challenge enough, but some of these dogs? Yikes.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

You say a cane has nothing to do with it, but on paper if a 75 year old man with mobility problems suggested getting a BC most would be up in arms judging his abilities. From the outside it looks like he'd be poorly equipped, obviously that would be a mistake. Same with Equinox and Trent, GypsyandKirsten, Dreizehn, Canyx, OwnedbyACDs... I'm not arguing everyone will be willing to do what it takes, obviously with shelters in the state they are thats not the case. But I am arguing that from the outside you can't really judge the people involved and their capabilities.



CptJack said:


> After a decade in rescue, johnny, I gotta tell you: you're deterring no one with that attitude who needs to be. Information is great. You can't do it? Nope. It's a challenge and a dare and some will meet it and some will fail, but it's not one bit helpfully as something to issue, because more will take it up just because it is, than would with flat information and respect.


This is a good way of putting it. I don't much like being told what I'm capable of by someone who's never met me. I take even more poorly to being told I "can't do it". Its a rather direct challenge that I doubt you, yourself would turn down, Johnny. I don't have much interest in listening to someone who presumes to know me better than I know myself, but I have great respect for the opinion of someone who truly knows the dogs. Which is why I think information on them and their needs is very valuable from the voice of experience. 

For rulings on what I can and can't do - I'll look to myself for that.


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## LadyB (Mar 7, 2013)

CptJack said:


> It's REALLY hard to explain, and that's exactly the kind of thing I mean. They're just.... really good at it. Not actively defiant, or challenging (EVER as far as I can tell) but... Well, yeah, passive-aggressive.


Often, Bug's response to commands is an almost-audible "ehn."


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

aiw said:


> This is a good way of putting it. I don't much like being told what I'm capable of by someone who's never met me. I take even more poorly to being told I "can't do it". Its a rather direct challenge that I doubt you, yourself would turn down, Johnny. I don't have much interest in listening to someone who presumes to know me better than I know myself, but I have great respect for the opinion of someone who truly knows the dogs. Which is why I think information on them and their needs is very valuable from the voice of experience.
> 
> For rulings on what I can and can't do - I'll look to myself for that.


Good grief, I was typing asleep and mobile. Something to ADDRESS or make an issue of, not sure which.

That is about the size of it, though. Very few people like being told "You aren't capable". I can't think of very many people who will be deterred by being told they can't do something. It's a pretty fundamental part of the psychology of a whole lot, I might even say most, people's psychology. I don't mean the basic resistance to rules, but the "Yes, I can!" attitudes. They're responsible for a lot of success in life, in general, and those things start getting ingrained in you when you're a toddler and keep being ingrained and reenforced through school, sports, life in general, work - it's a real thing. Sometimes it's justified, sometimes it's not, sometimes people prove the other person wrong, sometimes they prove them right. 

But keeping the challenge of it usually works better. 

Not to say that I'd adopt a border collie to a 75 year old man with a cane, but that is a dog I am responsible for and, yeah, I'm going to make the best judgement I can based on what I know and recognize that it may be keeping the dog out of a good home and into one that just looks or sounds better on paper. I'll give breed advice. I'll strongly emphasis. I'll warn. I'll advise. I try to stay away from 'you can't' because well.... they can. I'm not in control of the dog they're going to end up with. Selecting a home for a dog is NOT the same as selecting a dog for a home.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

To me, its not a question of can and cannot... Almost everyone CAN keep up with a ACD/Aussie/GSD/BC/Dobie/whatever breed. Its a question of what you are willing to do. The home and the dog might be an unlikely pair that ends up extremely successful.*

On paper, I'm 20 years old, go to school full time, and work. You as the breeder/rescue can fill in the blanks: she has lots of homework, she also goes out to party every weekend, takes vacations to visit friends too often, sleeps in, doesn't have time to dedicate to both a dog and friends... She has no time for a dog! I think a rescue would pass me by on a dog with a lot of energy or who needed a lot of work. But none of that is true. I spend my spare time running and spending time with my dog + Wolfy my running partner + CJ the house dog. And a little bit of family time is thrown in there too. I have time that I want to dedicate to training and working with a dog. I might not be ideal on paper as I'm young and still in school, but I CAN do it. I can make time. 

*Note: I don't mean that every elderly couple or young person needs to get that obviously inappropriate puppy. If they aren't willing to put the time forth to their new BC or ACD, obviously not a good home. 

Don't those puppies come hardwired to already know everything? I hear they are smart!


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

Boxers: 
*ADHD for life - clowns of the canine world, they get bored easily and training sessions must be short and "fun" to keep their attention (rote repetitions don't work - they get it the first time, whether they show you they did nor not - lol!); needs a very active owner!
*Velcro dogs: they can get very destructive when left alone not crated; they really want to be with their people - preferably all the time
*Several common health problems: cancer and heart issues which cause many of them to pass by age 10, or sooner
*They snore - serious snoring!!
*Can't take extreme heat/cold - must be house dogs

For some reason, boxer lovers love them anyway!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Over time I have learned what types of people ACDs work with and what types they do not. And why....
> 
> Good ACDs are BOLD, COCKY, PUSHY, POSSESSIVE, OVER CONFIDENT, TENACIOUS, DRIVEY, OVER DEVOTED SUPER INTELLIGENT, CONTROL FREAKS....
> 
> ...



I do not have a huge amount of experience with ACD but, I did have one for a few years because the owner got a dog thinking he could just treat it nice and all would be wonderful. That dog got to be "too much dog" for him very quickly. That was a tough little dog. She wasn't out of control but did come to me with a bite history. They were small bites (as I was told) just nips to people who moved to fast really. As if that is alright.

I brought this dog out to the stable with me. She ended up being a wonderful help out there. She was on my heels all the time, would run out to bring the horses in from the big field. I swear that dog had a smile on her face when she was working. Her whole demeanor changed once she had an outlet for her energies. She would come with us on long trail rides and keep up. When I was working horses in the arena, she would hang out in the tack room. Nobody was allowed in the tack room when she was in there because she thought she owned it. She never bothered me. That dog was amazing and I really loved her even though she wasn't mine officially. The dog went back to her owner and did well for awhile. Sadly, she passed not long after. 

I think Johnny describes his breed very very well and I understand the harsh warnings. It might not be what people want to hear but often it is what should be heard as it would save a lot of heartache not only for the people but the poor dogs that find themselves in the wrong situation. I feel the same way about my breed of choice.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I actually don't like the whole idea that certain people are or aren't "capable" of having a particular dog, because I think it's the wrong question to ask. I sincerely believe most people are _capable_ of having most breeds. There is nothing THAT magical about any particular dog. 

In my opinion, the question isn't whether someone is "capable" (which is a pretty wooly question anyway), but what do they WANT to be capable of owning and what do they want to live with every day. Will they enjoy being around and working with a particular dog's characteristics, and be flexible/ creative/ problem-solving enough to work with that dog's characteristics? Nor do I think most of the breeds that people often recommend to first-time dog owners as "easy" breeds are really all that easy, although that's a completely different tangent. Personally, there are a lot of breeds I think I would be capable of owning that I have no interest in living with. And I do not like living with "easy" dogs. 

Also, I find that people tend to live both up to and down to expectations of them. Just sayin'.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I actually don't like the whole idea that certain people are or aren't "capable" of having a particular dog, because I think it's the wrong question to ask. I sincerely believe most people are _capable_ of having most breeds. There is nothing THAT magical about any particular dog.
> 
> In my opinion, the question isn't whether someone is "capable" (which is a pretty wooly question anyway), but what do they WANT to be capable of owning and what do they want to live with every day. Will they enjoy being around and working with a particular dog's characteristics, and be flexible/ creative/ problem-solving enough to work with that dog's characteristics? Nor do I think most of the breeds that people often recommend to first-time dog owners as "easy" breeds are really all that easy, although that's a completely different tangent. Personally, there are a lot of breeds I think I would be capable of owning that I have no interest in living with. And I do not like living with "easy" dogs.
> 
> Also, I find that people tend to live both up to and down to expectations of them. Just sayin'.


Yes. This, exactly and much better than I was managing with all my fumbling around. 

Thank you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Inga said:


> I think Johnny describes his breed very very well and I understand the harsh warnings. It might not be what people want to hear but often it is what should be heard as it would save a lot of heartache not only for the people but the poor dogs that find themselves in the wrong situation. I feel the same way about my breed of choice.



To be clear: I don't object to harsh warnings and I don't object to the description given. I think people being told loud and clear the downsides and what living with this dog is going to entail is very, very important. Warning people off, I get behind and I DO. 

"This dog is too much for you" isn't useful information, ever. THAT is what I'm calling a challenge and self-defeating. It doesn't give the person doing the person you're talking to any real information about the dog - what does 'too much dog' or 'a lot of dog' even MEAN, practically? Because as far as I can tell it means 'dog that clashes drastically with your lifestyle and personality' at which point beagles, labs, and poodles are all too much dog for me, because dealing with them would exhaust, frustrate, and upset me. 

And while I sort of understand what's meant by the phrase on an emotional level? It honestly just comes across as a sort of elitism to most people, or a way for the person who owns the dog/dogs to bump up their ego and make themselves feel good, or their dogs 'a cut above the rest'. In reality, it's still going to to depend on the personality match between owner and dog, and commitment levels and willingness.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> To be clear: I don't object to harsh warnings and I don't object to the description given. I think people being told loud and clear the downsides and what living with this dog is going to entail is very, very important. Warning people off, I get behind and I DO.
> 
> "This dog is too much for you" isn't useful information, ever. THAT is what I'm calling a challenge and self-defeating. It doesn't give the person doing the person you're talking to any real information about the dog - what does 'too much dog' or 'a lot of dog' even MEAN, practically? Because as far as I can tell it means 'dog that clashes drastically with your lifestyle and personality' at which point beagles, labs, and poodles are all too much dog for me, because dealing with them would exhaust, frustrate, and upset me.
> 
> And while I sort of understand what's meant by the phrase on an emotional level? It honestly just comes across as a sort of elitism to most people, or a way for the person who owns the dog/dogs to bump up their ego and make themselves feel good, or their dogs 'a cut above the rest'. In reality, it's still going to to depend on the personality match between owner and dog, and commitment levels and willingness.


The comical irony in all this....

The more folks attempt to imply that it sounds elitist for someone to tell another person that a dog is too much for them, the more statements they make that themselves sound elitist. 

Its comical.


In the end.... It really does not matter....

Give strong warnings of realities.... Or.... Flat out tell someone a breed is not for them.

People do not listen. 

People lie... To breeders, to rescues, and to themselves...

People misjudge and downplay statements. 

In the end... The best way, and I have tried them all, is to be direct and tell them how the cow eats the cabbage. 


And if folks think I am elitist because I am willing to tell them how it is.... So be it.... And if I am telling them how it is, that is too bad..... Good breeders are going to tell them the same thing... One way or another... 

Of course there are pet stores( there are ACDs coming out of Amish puppy mills in PA and MO. And frankly I have seen some truly dangerous dogs come out of mills) There are back yard breeders. 

I agree people are going to do what they want. And telling them a dog is too much for them, whether worded directly or indirectly, is going to push some people to do it anyway.

The thing is.... There are other ways for a person to get accomplish what they want.....

The young man I mentioned last night.... First time dog owner with an ACD.... I told him, in multiple ways and multiple times over multiple months that he was not ready for an ACD.... Did he get offended? If he did, he did not show it. But he kept at it, no matter how many times he was told, he kept coming back. He joined the breed club without a dog, started showing up at club and dog events. Kept proving he was going to do what he needed to do and never give up. That kind of determination, drive, etc is why he has an ACD today. And why he is successful with it.


On the rescue side.... 
I am not one to turn down applications.... IF there is a way to make it work... I will make it work....

Funny thing is.... All the typical reasons a lot of rescues turn down apps, no fence, age, living situation, etc. mean little to me....


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> All these owners, happily, had a similar personality type in that they each stubbornly refused to give up on their dogs or listen to the bad advice they were given. They were relentless in searching for more resources and different advice. That same tenacity that likely drew them to those breeds (I often think we choose dogs that either mirror who we are...or who we aspire to be) drove them to become the owner their dog needed.
> 
> I don't think I'm idealistic enough to believe every dog owner or even the "average" dog owner is going to go to those lengths. The sad examples of dogs just like these in rescues and shelters seem to match my idea of the sad reality. Yes, some people can and do manage to own one of these breeds as their first dog and do well, but for most, it requires that tenacity and a willingness to fight through whatever they have to in order to be what their dog needs.


Do you think that only applies to those "difficult" breeds, though? Because there are an awful lot of labs and other "easy breeds" in shelters, too. I think that a lot of people just aren't prepared for a dog, period, and the ones who aren't willing to learn fast and accommodate the dog with appropriate training and exercise are going to dump it, whether it's a nippy GSD or a bouncing lab.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

CptJack said:


> To be clear: I don't object to harsh warnings and I don't object to the description given. I think people being told loud and clear the downsides and what living with this dog is going to entail is very, very important. Warning people off, I get behind and I DO.


I agree, and I'm not suggesting people don't know their breeds. Obviously both Johnny and Inga know their requirements and quirks extremely well, that's very valuable for a prospective owner to hear - both the good and bad things. What they don't know is the person in question, their capabilities or desires. "This dog *needs* xyz, are you sure you're suited? What's your plan for accomplishing it?" provides some valuable information, "you're not up for it" simply doesn't - and is really outside the scope.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> I agree, and I'm not suggesting people don't know their breeds. Obviously both Johnny and Inga know their requirements and quirks extremely well, that's very valuable for a prospective owner to hear - both the good and bad things. What they don't know is the person in question, their capabilities or desires. "This dog *needs* xyz, are you sure you're suited? What's your plan for accomplishing it?" provides some valuable information, "you're not up for it" simply doesn't - and is really outside the scope.


Where EVER did I say I just off the cuff tell someone they cannot handle the breed? 
It is what they say and do not say.... Communication....
And if it is in person.... Body language can be even more telling than words...

But I am not going to beat around the bush... If I do not think someone is up for it... I am going to say it..


Another humorously ironic thing.... Ya'll think I am hard... But some ACD people think I am FAR too easy......

With our rescue.... three folks evaluate each rescue app. Majority rules but I can veto both ways. I can approve apps the other two decline and I can decline apps the other two approve. 


I thought I was going to be impeached about a year ago, because I placed a HARD charging young male with a 57 year old man that lived in an apartment and had never owned an ACD and had not owned a dog period in ten years. They gave him a conditional on an elderly dog we had... But I placed the dog he wanted..... Because he was the right guy for that dog...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Where EVER did I say I just off the cuff tell someone they cannot handle the breed?
> It is what they say and do not say.... Communication....
> And if it is in person.... Body language can be even more telling than words...
> 
> ...



I think you're misunderstanding a little, Johnny, or maybe I (in particular) haven't been being clear. I don't think you're too hard. I think the statement 'too much dog for you', alone, that you've said here, isn't all that useful. I don't mind blunt speak, I don't think everyone fits with every dog anymore than you do. Just don't think that that particular statement, if given to someone rather than a board full of dog owners, is as useful as something more concrete for those reasons I've mentioned here.

Specific traits problems, bluntly saying 'this is a bad idea', whatever, is useful information- taken or not. "Too much dog" is shorthand, ambiguous, unlikely to be understood by someone who isn't a dog person as anything but, yes, a challenge or an insult. I think there are better ways to convey what you mean than that. That's all I'm saying.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeaaah, someone once told me I'd never be able to handle Thud (a couple of months ago, when he was @ 6 months old) because I was too 'soft'.
> 
> Yeah, well, bite me.


I agree with that sentiment.
But guess who keeps saying I should worry about Roman 2 years from now when he matures????
Same sentiment no???

While I never said you cannot "handle Thud" due to your softness...

Seems like some "experts" have plenty of things to say back to "me".

Very hypocritical sounding to me.

Hey... I am not the one ever comparing Roman with excruciating and frustrating moments.

P.S. Roman is that fuzzy peach with a very well rooted family. TY very much.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

hueyeats said:


> I agree with that sentiment.
> But guess who keeps saying I should worry about Roman 2 years from now when he matures????
> Same sentiment no???


Lots of misunderstanding going on around here lately. Nobody said that you couldn't handle Roman if/when his personality changes. We simply pointed out that it's too early to call him a "forever puppy" or a "white retriever," and that it's not a good idea to say that pyrs are naturally submissive if raised right. That's all.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Lots of misunderstanding going on around here lately. Nobody said that you couldn't handle Roman if/when his personality changes. We simply pointed out that it's too early to call him a "forever puppy" or a "white retriever," and that it's not a good idea to say that pyrs are naturally submissive if raised right. That's all.


Yep. In fact I recall specifically saying that no one was implying anything but that you be aware that he's still young, he's got 2 more years before full maturity as a giant breed, and to be AWARE. Much like I told MrsB to be aware that Boston terriers are rough little suckers who will rough up their owners and have tons and tons of energy.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I always warn people who are interested in an AKK that they are, by nature, shy and wary of strangers, and while socialization can help, a lot of AKK will never be happy to meet strangers. Some might even be fear-biters. I'm not telling people they can't handle an AKK; I'm just making sure they're aware of what to expect so that they're not disappointed when their AKK doesn't act like a friendly, happy miniature Siberian or something.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

^^^Last I know... Freedom.of speech.
I as that owner can pretty much call Roman anything I want.
A forever puppy in his mommis eyes... A super big white retriever, a fuzzy peach.

Who are you guys again to say anything???

I don't listen to contradictory trainers or non trainers much.
Especially if they cannot keep their own stories straight.

Groomers to me is worth that expense per session...
At least I see physical evidences of when they say cut, its cut... Sheared at 1 inch.. Setting is at one inch.
No hypothetical meanings or rules that while applied to others does not applies to themselves.

Again..
I never solicited any advise... But I do feel as if someone soloed me out to choke that advise down my throat, hence I know that sentiment really well...

DF is a brag for my dog ... And DF did not say its only for sought out advises only.

P.S. Now I am being detailed...
While I say Roman is a breeze for me...
(Possible to have a roman like pyr, trained to be good)
Where can you quote me saying Pyrs are easy to trained???
Unless ooooh you guys "forgot"...
(I mentioned "sensitive handling required" for Roman since he is so smart & hardheaded)


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Well, if you don't listen to us or care what we think, why are you so offended? You're the one who won't let this go and keeps bringing it up after the conversation ended.

Again, nobody was giving you advice. This whole thing started because CptJack pointed out that your statement about pyrs being naturally submissive dogs was false.

Also, "freedom of speech" doesn't mean that you can say whatever you want and expect nobody to disagree with you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I always warn people who are interested in an AKK that they are, by nature, shy and wary of strangers, and while socialization can help, a lot of AKK will never be happy to meet strangers. Some might even be fear-biters. I'm not telling people they can't handle an AKK; I'm just making sure they're aware of what to expect so that they're not disappointed when their AKK doesn't act like a friendly, happy miniature Siberian or something.



I think for me it's that the message I am USUALLY trying to convey (admittedly not always, because sometimes I do (did) have both the authority to say no, because I'm responsible for that individual dog and can see a major problem) is "This is going to be much, much harder than I think you are aware of" rather than "Don't." I mean, yeah, honestly I sometimes cringe at the idea of certain dogs in particular homes and think it's completely wrong and a disaster waiting to happen. Mostly, though, I still TRY to stick with factual information about the DOG BREED, rather than speculation about the individual PEOPLE, because that's more likely to be useful. I'm not always nice about it! Sometimes I get frustrated and emotional and want to shake someone - 

But by the time I'm ACTUALLY being not-nice instead of bluntly factual, I am aware that they're going to do what they want, aren't listening and aren't going to.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

hueyeats said:


> Where can you quote me saying Pyrs are easy to trained???
> Unless ooooh you guys "forgot"...


"Easy to trained?" Neither of us said that. Like we've said several times now, we were objecting to this statement:



hueyeats said:


> Roman's breed (or all dog) if trained right... shows & takes on a natural submissive role (just watch you-tube and read).


Pyrs are not "naturally submissive" dogs. As I pointed out in that thread -- -- the breed standard and the breed club are both careful to point out that pyrs are independent guardian dogs.

The only person being rude here is you, with all of your sarcastic statements about how you don't believe that CptJack has owned and fostered pyrs, and with you putting words in our mouths.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Where EVER did I say I just off the cuff tell someone they cannot handle the breed?
> It is what they say and do not say.... Communication....
> And if it is in person.... Body language can be even more telling than words...
> 
> But I am not going to beat around the bush... If I do not think someone is up for it... I am going to say it..


I would say that any judgement based on a written application and an in-person meeting is a pretty snap judgement. Of course in rescue its all you have to go off and you have every right to refuse dogs (or admit them) to homes based on your assessment. They're in your charge to do with as you see fit. 

What I'm pointing out is that you can't reliably judge what other people are capable of. Which is why "too much dog for you" or "you can't handle it" is not very helpful, informative or even accurate. You're not in a position to say "you can't handle an ACD" as you just can never know that person like they know themselves. But since you know the dogs so intimately you would be the perfect person to advise about what the dogs need and who they are - who the people are and what they're willing to do is not something anyone else can really know.



> I actually don't like the whole idea that certain people are or aren't "capable" of having a particular dog, because I think it's the wrong question to ask. I sincerely believe most people are capable of having most breeds. There is nothing THAT magical about any particular dog.
> 
> In my opinion, the question isn't whether someone is "capable" (which is a pretty wooly question anyway), but what do they WANT to be capable of owning and what do they want to live with every day. Will they enjoy being around and working with a particular dog's characteristics, and be flexible/ creative/ problem-solving enough to work with that dog's characteristics?


This is a good way of putting it. Much more clear and concise than I've been.

EDIT: Completely unrelated....



> Also, "freedom of speech" doesn't mean that you can say whatever you want and expect nobody to disagree with you.


This is such a pet peeve of mine. Freedom of speech is not "freedom to say what I want and have everyone agree with me and like me". Its simply the ability to speak a thought aloud. Other people have that freedom too, be prepared; they will use it.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

This song by Jason Aldeen pretty much sums up a working, "hard" ACD:

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/jason+aldean/the+only+way+i+know_21046836.html

I am this way so I like my dogs this way too


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Well, if you don't listen to us or care what we think, why are you so offended? You're the one who won't let this go and keeps bringing it up after the conversation ended.
> 
> Again, nobody was giving you advice. This whole thing started because CptJack pointed out that your statement about pyrs being naturally submissive dogs was false.
> 
> Also, "freedom of speech" doesn't mean that you can say whatever you want and expect nobody to disagree with you.


A huh...
I always felt soloed out by you and cptJack.
Quoted always you see as if you guys purposefully "stalked" me.
So why can't I keep going and doing what u guys did best???

Details you see...
While I did say Roman is submissive to me "like a child"...
Can you again quote me saying "pyr are naturally submissive"???

So if you guys actually is reading my post to quote back...
Why aren't you now??? For specifics???

And now... This is my observation and of course I could be wrong...
I can see why CptJack keeps giving me Pyr expertise...
And like she pointed out... Thud is very pyr-like...
...Roman is a Pyr, no question there from pictures.
Thud... A pyr half... Wannabe pyr = pyr like.
Cptjacks pyr is a "working" pyr??? Very non submissive... Right???
Is that non submissive "stubborn by nature" pyr seen as "well trained" then if you want it to be as "pet-like" the way Roman is???

Now... I will say again.
Roman does and is trained to what "I" that owner wants him to be...
He "willingly" does behave my training way (submissive to my training).
If CptJack loves the pyr that "stubborn" way and sees Roman's submissiveness to me as default...

Who actually has attained that impossible of that "trust" of trusting owners know best feat????
I did.

Now... I could be wrong but who is jealous now???

A pyr wannabe or a pyr who doesn't have to be a pyr pretend????

So if anyone isn't jealous... Bugger off and let Roman & his owner be.
We are content mind you.
Again... Did we ask for "expertise" when we can obviously quote research on Pyr???
Did do our homework alright... 1 year on owning Roman plus 1/2 year more research.

Not one of those owners who "jump in" because its "impulse"!


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

hueyeats said:


> ^^^Last I know... Freedom.of speech.
> I as that owner can pretty much call Roman anything I want.
> A forever puppy in his mommis eyes... A super big white retriever, a fuzzy peach.
> 
> ...


You have misunderstood. CptJack is in an excellent position to give insight into the pyr breed and can say with complete validity, "wait till he's two or three, then temperament begins to show". She knows the dogs. JohnnyBandit also knows the dogs. They've both worked with hundreds and have a lot of valuable advice to offer. You should listen to them about their breeds, as should I.

The argument here is that neither Johnny nor CptJack know the _owners_ intimately and aren't in a position to say what they can or can't handle. CptJack is not making a judgement about you in the other thread, she is telling you the objective truth of the dogs temperament. Incidentally, her view is backed by every single pyr establishment and breeder.

Really though, this thread is not about you and is focused on a different topic. The other thread was about a different topic too, but its become entirely derailed, lets keep comments about that disagreement over there.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> "Easy to trained?" Neither of us said that. Like we've said several times now, we were objecting to this statement:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I said if you know how to read...
It takes "training" = "if trained correctly (right)".
And if you dispute this...
Aren't you also agreeing that pit bulls once revert to having bitten also cannot be trained to become a dog to be saved???

I am also stressing what you quoted me on...
All dogs need "training".... To get them to do what humans want aka summit to Human wishes.
Dispute that... Why do *you* (trainer contrary) even tell people you are actively bothering to train your dogs???

Maybe you and CptJack are best buds here... Ooohh so tight.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> I would say that any judgement based on a written application and an in-person meeting is a pretty snap judgement. Of course in rescue its all you have to go off and you have every right to refuse dogs (or admit them) to homes based on your assessment. They're in your charge to do with as you see fit.
> 
> What I'm pointing out is that you can't reliably judge what other people are capable of. Which is why "too much dog for you" or "you can't handle it" is not very helpful, informative or even accurate. You're not in a position to say "you can't handle an ACD" as you just can never know that person like they know themselves. But since you know the dogs so intimately you would be the perfect person to advise about what the dogs need and who they are - who the people are and what they're willing to do is not something anyone else can really know.
> .


It does not take long..... Call it a snap judgement if you like. 

But this is where you are incorrect..... I can reliably judge whether someone is a good match for a given dog. 

And I am in a position to tell people if they can handle an ACD or not...

People... Especially people that want something.... Are more often than not, less than honest with themselves. Peoples wants and desires, often allows them to convince themselves of anything.

Reality is different. 

And still..... People are going to do what they want.....

And then they are going to blame anyone and everyone but themselves.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well this thread has taken an odd turn.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

hueyeats said:


> A huh...
> I always felt soloed out by you and cptJack.
> Quoted always you see as if you guys purposefully "stalked" me.
> So why can't I keep going and doing what u guys did best???


This is a discussion board. You keep posting on the same threads as us. Replying to you, or discussing or disagreeing with your posts, is not "stalking." I remember you accused the last person who disagreed with you of stalking, as well. It seems like you just don't like people questioning anything you say.



> Details you see...
> While I did say Roman is submissive to me "like a child"...
> Can you again quote me saying "pyr are naturally submissive"???


How many times do I have to quote it?



hueyeats said:


> *Roman's breed (or all dog) if trained right... shows & takes on a natural submissive role* (just watch you-tube and read).
> Roman, true to his kind... sits when greeting another dog (or human)...
> "Jump backwards" (in caution NOT fear) when smaller dogs "lunges" to play...
> "Lays down" to play with smaller dogs.
> Rolls over for bellyrubs whenever I ask him to.


Again, from this thread: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/193457-interesting-stages-hes-going.html#post2128634



> And now... This is my observation and of course I could be wrong...
> I can see why CptJack keeps giving me Pyr expertise...
> And like she pointed out... Thud is very pyr-like...
> ...Roman is a Pyr, no question there from pictures.
> ...


Like CptJack has said SEVERAL times now, she is not giving you pyr advice because of Thud (she's actually not even giving you advice, but just discussing pyrs). She owned a pyr for its entire life before she ever got Thud, and she fostered more of them. Read this again:



CptJack said:


> If Roman is your first Pyr, and the only one you have lived and worked with, I can safely say I have quite a lot more experience than you.
> 
> Roman isn't mature. *I've owned one pyr for its entire lifetime and fostered more.* They're also a common breed in my area. You are seeing immature, adolescent, and essentially puppy behavior. You need to be prepared for that temperament and personality to change. Odds of it not changing are vanishingly slim. That is true of all breeds. It is especially drastic in livestock guardians. If his temperament and personality DO NOT change, then he is both atypical, and possessing a VERY incorrect personality for the breed.
> 
> ...


From this thread: http://www.dogforums.com/general-dog-forum/193457-interesting-stages-hes-going-2.html#post2128914

You seem to be taking offense to things neither of us have actually said (nobody said that you should stop loving Roman or that you won't be able to handle him), and you seem to be deliberately ignoring what we're actually saying even when we quote it again and again and clarify.



hueyeats said:


> I said if you know how to read...
> It takes "training" = "if trained correctly (right)".
> And if you dispute this...
> Aren't you also agreeing that pit bulls once revert to having bitten also cannot be trained to become a dog to be saved???
> ...


I don't even know what any of this is supposed to mean. I find your stream-of-consciousness tangents very hard to follow. I have noticed that you like to say "if you believe this" or "if you dispute this" a lot, though, as if you're implying that that's what I'm saying. It is not.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I
> But this is where you are incorrect..... I can reliably judge whether someone is a good match for a given dog.


This, I agree with completely. If I have the DOG in my possession, I know what I'm looking for in a home for it. Not that I do rescue anymore. The owner may or may not be able to handle the breed, and I won't use those words anyway (the real disagreement) - but I'll turn away a home for a dog that leaves me with ANY question at all, and will keep waiting for the perfect fit. That isn't about breed to me, snap judgement or not. It's about the fact that I HAVE THE DOG, in my possession and my home and while, no, I don't know the owners and agree that I have no business passing judgement on them, I do have the dog. 

And my responsibility is to the dog, not the people.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Well this thread has taken an odd turn.


Its probably my fault...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Its probably my fault...


No. 

Not even close.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It does not take long..... Call it a snap judgement if you like.
> 
> But this is where you are incorrect..... *I can reliably judge whether someone is a good match for a given dog.
> 
> ...


Well, my only answer would be that you are an expert on ACDs, but you are definitely not an expert on the person sitting in front of you. That would be like me suggesting that I'm an ACD expert after reading a webpage (adoption application) and meeting one at the dog park (in person meeting).


I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then, especially about the bolded. Not the first time 



CptJack said:


> This, I agree with completely. If I have the DOG in my possession, I know what I'm looking for in a home for it. Not that I do rescue anymore. The owner may or may not be able to handle the breed, and I won't use those words anyway (the real disagreement) - but I'll turn away a home for a dog that leaves me with ANY question at all, and will keep waiting for the perfect fit. That isn't about breed to me, snap judgement or not. **It's about the fact that I HAVE THE DOG, in my possession and my home and while, no, I don't know the owners and agree that I have no business passing judgement on them, I do have the dog.**
> 
> And my responsibility is to the dog, not the people.


This I agree with too. Maybe that was unclear in my other post - its an odd distinction. If a dog is in rescue or a litter, he's in your care and your judgement is what determines which home is picked. I don't really think you are able to tell the person they can't handle the dog, but if your judgement is that they can't - go with it, definitely. You're well within your rights to determine which home receives which dog, and you only have your judgement to make that call.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Its probably my fault...


Well you're clearly not capable of handling a thread like this.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> This, I agree with completely. If I have the DOG in my possession, I know what I'm looking for in a home for it. Not that I do rescue anymore. The owner may or may not be able to handle the breed, and I won't use those words anyway (the real disagreement) - but I'll turn away a home for a dog that leaves me with ANY question at all, and will keep waiting for the perfect fit. That isn't about breed to me, snap judgement or not. It's about the fact that I HAVE THE DOG, in my possession and my home and while, no, I don't know the owners and agree that I have no business passing judgement on them, I do have the dog.
> 
> And my responsibility is to the dog, not the people.


I am very direct... And the way I choose to say it.... Leaves little room for misinterpretation


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am very direct... And the way I choose to say it.... Leaves little room for misinterpretation


But that *isn't* direct, IMO. To me that's short-hand. It's leaving information out for the sake of expediency, and while you don't owe anyone an explanation -especially turning down an adoption application on a dog you're responsible for- when you're dealing with people looking for information about a breed as a whole, things change a little. At least they do for me. 

I mean, I will happily say 'Nope, bad fit for the dog' and move on my way without apology. It might be a snap judgement, but if you're placing a dog what are you going to do, hang out with them every day for six months? Snap judgement, the application and maybe interview are as good as it gets and the consequences for getting it wrong are immediate, personal, and dire. 

If someone comes to me and says "I want a pet pyr" my reaction is to immediately throw every negative thing that gets them rehomed at the person and see if any of it dissuades them. If not, well, at least they're prepared, but that has a prayer of getting information and awareness into their head (apparently a slim prayer) and making them rethink. "Bad fit" or "You can't handle it" doesn't really. At least not in my experience with hardheaded PEOPLE.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I have to say while I haven't fostered LGD's or pyrs for years & years like capt Jack, I have had enough experience with them as a group to agree with her on the fact that they CAN be (not all are) but they often are not a "submissive" breed that is amiable to conforming to training. These dogs were bred for many years to "think on their own" four feet without the aid or support of a shepherd, they have to assess the environment, if something is a threat & not only act accordingly but at times instruct the livestock to act accordingly (one bark from our LGD scout & our goats would run for the safety of the pens).

I don't think anyone is saying that all pyrs aren't capable of being trained, just like I didn't imply that all ACDs are tough, no-holds-barred bad asses, some are soft (like Buddy) but the magoritynof the breed is heavy on the "bad assness" just like the LGD breeds are heavy on being tough to train & independant minded. I have heard it said that with LGD's (something I read) that an LGD that makes a "good" pet, is biddable & easy to train would make a lousy livestock guard because they lack the ability to think independently. 

I hope that makes sense lol


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Spirit_of_Cotons said:


> Stubborn or beggars. Beggar or stubborn, which to choose.
> 
> Sorry can't do one, Cotons are both stubborn and beggars. I've never known a dog to stare at me as long as mine does.



I don't think I'd call cotons stubborn.

They are persistent. That is something you can channel/harness/focus.

They can get their minds on something and are willing to keep trying to get it. They can have their own ideas and won't always "see it your way", but that's not stubborness, imo. 

They are an odd mix of independent thinkers (especially if encouraged) and input/direction-seekers, imo. They are attuned to context and situations, and will often "ask why" in new situations - but it's really information seeking (do I need to <insert behavior here> in this situation, too?) and not so much defiance or stubborness, imo.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

aiw said:


> Well, my only answer would be that you are an expert on ACDs, but you are definitely not an expert on the person sitting in front of you. That would be like me suggesting that I'm an ACD expert after reading a webpage (adoption application) and meeting one at the dog park (in person meeting).
> 
> 
> I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then, especially about the bolded. Not the first time



Yet I have a FANTASTIC track record of placing dogs that stick.... Not just with ACDs, but also with Pit Bulls, Catahoulas, and assorted other dogs. A track record that goes back 25 years...

In my professional life, I have made my living by largely reading people for just as long.....

Regardless of your opinion.... I am quite capable of deciding, or at least what questions I need to ask to make an informed decision, in a very short time...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> But that *isn't* direct, IMO. To me that's short-hand. .


Have you ever seen me write a short reply to anything? I am direct not short handed.... I never said I did not tell someone why.....


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have to say while I haven't fostered LGD's or pyrs for years & years like capt Jack, I have had enough experience with them as a group to agree with her on the fact that they CAN be (not all are) but they often are not a "submissive" breed that is amiable to conforming to training. These dogs were bred for many years to "think on their own" four feet without the aid or support of a shepherd, they have to assess the environment, if something is a threat & not only act accordingly but at times instruct the livestock to act accordingly (one bark from our LGD scout & our goats would run for the safety of the pens).
> 
> I don't think anyone is saying that all pyrs aren't capable of being trained, just like I didn't imply that all ACDs are tough, no-holds-barred bad asses, some are soft (like Buddy) but the magoritynof the breed is heavy on the "bad assness" just like the LGD breeds are heavy on being tough to train & independant minded. I have heard it said that with LGD's (something I read) that an LGD that makes a "good" pet, is biddable & easy to train would make a lousy livestock guard because they lack the ability to think independently.
> 
> I hope that makes sense lol



But independent thought can be one of the biggest assets to training with the right handler and right training method. 

That's why I don't like the way it's often presented as "biddable vs independent". 

It's like with kids - different learning styles. The way you'd reach a velcro dog who seeks input 24/7 would be different than a dog that tends to form her own ideas about situations. I don't think one is any "more" trainable than the other. It's just the approach is different.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I have to say while I haven't fostered LGD's or pyrs for years & years like capt Jack, I have had enough experience with them as a group to agree with her on the fact that they CAN be (not all are) but they often are not a "submissive" breed that is amiable to conforming to training. These dogs were bred for many years to "think on their own" four feet without the aid or support of a shepherd, they have to assess the environment, if something is a threat & not only act accordingly but at times instruct the livestock to act accordingly (one bark from our LGD scout & our goats would run for the safety of the pens).
> 
> I don't think anyone is saying that all pyrs aren't capable of being trained, just like I didn't imply that all ACDs are tough, no-holds-barred bad asses, some are soft (like Buddy) but the magoritynof the breed is heavy on the "bad assness" just like the LGD breeds are heavy on being tough to train & independant minded. I have heard it said that with LGD's (something I read) that an LGD that makes a "good" pet, is biddable & easy to train would make a lousy livestock guard because they lack the ability to think independently.
> 
> I hope that makes sense lol



To be clear, for the sake of it (though I'm not hopeful it'll have much impact on the other person who is determined to be offended):

I don't think Pyrs are impossible to train at all! I think they're entirely trainable, in the sense that they're smart and will learn what you want. 

I think odds of them performing just because you ask them to is not entirely high for most.

Mostly, I think that most ultimately become aloof, and, you know, pick up tendencies of being guardian breeds. Ie: They roam, they bark, they stop being completely animal and stranger friendly, and become food aggressive, all to varying degrees.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Well you're clearly not capable of handling a thread like this.


I think you made a snap decision without knowing me.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CptJack said:


> This, I agree with completely. If I have the DOG in my possession, I know what I'm looking for in a home for it. Not that I do rescue anymore. The owner may or may not be able to handle the breed, and I won't use those words anyway (the real disagreement) - but I'll turn away a home for a dog that leaves me with ANY question at all, and will keep waiting for the perfect fit. That isn't about breed to me, snap judgement or not. It's about the fact that I HAVE THE DOG, in my possession and my home and while, no, I don't know the owners and agree that I have no business passing judgement on them, I do have the dog.
> 
> And my responsibility is to the dog, not the people.


Just curious, would you have judged me incapable of helping Wally as first time owner?

I'm starting to wonder that both Wally and I are lucky fate brought us together like it did because from what I'm hearing, someone would probably make a judgement that Wally would not be a 'good fit'.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

KBLover said:


> That's why I don't like the way it's often presented as "biddable vs independent".
> 
> .


Biddable and independent are not opposites. 

They are not like black vs white, cold vs hot. 

Whether a dog is independent or not has nothing to with whether it is biddable.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Yet I have a FANTASTIC track record of placing dogs that stick.... Not just with ACDs, but also with Pit Bulls, Catahoulas, and assorted other dogs. A track record that goes back 25 years...
> 
> In my professional life, I have made my living by largely reading people for just as long.....
> 
> Regardless of your opinion.... I am quite capable of deciding, or at least what questions I need to ask to make an informed decision, in a very short time...


I agree with this, when someone places dogs, they may not be an expert on the person adopting ... But they ARE an expert in the DOG that is being ADOPTED, & therefore can IMHO make a "snap judgement" on whether or not they can handle said dog or not. 

Rescues do it all the time, the problem is not every rescerer is GOOD at snap judgement, which is where the problem lies I think. I can't speak for other breeds, but "ACD capable" people to me stick out like a sore thumb in a crowd.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

aiw said:


> You have misunderstood. CptJack is in an excellent position to give insight into the pyr breed and can say with complete validity, "wait till he's two or three, then temperament begins to show". She knows the dogs. JohnnyBandit also knows the dogs. They've both worked with hundreds and have a lot of valuable advice to offer. You should listen to them about their breeds, as should I.
> 
> The argument here is that neither Johnny nor CptJack know the _owners_ intimately and aren't in a position to say what they can or can't handle. CptJack is not making a judgement about you in the other thread, she is telling you the objective truth of the dogs temperament. Incidentally, her view is backed by every single pyr establishment and breeder.
> 
> Really though, this thread is not about you and is focused on a different topic. The other thread was about a different topic too, but its become entirely derailed, lets keep comments about that disagreement over there.


Again I shall make myself clear...
And this forum did not say "I have to (or should) listen to CptJack or anyone here for the matter's advice or else...".

What if I don't listen Roman and I will be????
Shot to the head???

GMAB.

Geeze.. "I should"???
If I do... Is a million USD on the line for me (I'll give it all to Roman how about that)???
That will be the only "incentive" that I can see will even tempt me to "listen".

So we talking about money???


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

KBLover said:


> Just curious, would you have judged me incapable of helping Wally as first time owner?
> 
> I'm starting to wonder that both Wally and I are lucky fate brought us together like it did because from what I'm hearing, someone would probably make a judgement that Wally would not be a 'good fit'.


I don't know. I don't know Wally. I don't know the specifics of your home. If I recall correctly he was very timid and shut down? 

In that case, probably not. I would have been looking for a quiet home with patient people, more than experience. Preferrably one with no, or one older, other dog and no young children. 

Experience comes in sometimes, but usually with serious behavioral issues. 95% of the time, Environment played a bigger role, and personality of the people and dog certainly did.


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## annadee (Aug 22, 2012)

I hope I'm still allowed to post a warning about my breed...

Crazy high energy until the age of two. Absolutely need to be enrolled in obedience training from the get go in addition to daily strenuous exercise, otherwise you get a terror dog until senior years. That's why there are so many labs in shelters. I really can't stand labs being suggested to pretty much every first time owner. However, they are eager to learn and pretty easy to exercise (IMO, because I am active and don't think taking my dog for an hour bike ride or for a swim in the lake is a big deal) and are a really easy breed to live with once you understand what a lab needs in order to be a dog you can be proud to own.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

hueyeats said:


> Again I shall make myself clear...
> And this forum did not say "I have to (or should) listen to CptJack or anyone here for the matter's advice or else...".
> 
> What if I don't listen Roman and I will be????
> ...


What are you even talking about? I said 'should listen', not 'I'm going to waterboard you until you do'. I was just pointing out how poorly you seem to grasp the purpose of this thread, why you felt the need to bring your fight over here I have no idea. Seems awfully self-centred. I don't really know or care to know the details of whats happening in your drama with other members, perhaps you could keep it to one derailed thread about you at any given time?

Ignore us all if you want, but if you're not interested in interacting with the members here.... what are you even doing on this forum?


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Why can't I be on this forum if I don't care for listening to some Mbrs???

You going to waterboard me if I like visiting and bragging about how great Roman is here???

Why "should" (read and you'll see should written by must) I listen at all???
This is the internet.
Not "life" to me.. 

I love money as incentive for me to "perform" services... Like especially when some tells me I should or must do something.

Don't love to have someone or anyone else tell me what I should or shouldn't do without that incentive.
If you like for someone to "dictate" that should do in your life...
Its your business. Not mine.
I don't see no incentive in following these "should" here... Especially on the internet... Unless of course you are talking money.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you don't like what people say on a forum, you can disagree with them and engage in a debate, or you can just ignore them. Accusing them of saying things they have never said, telling them to "bugger off," or dragging a disagreement with a poster (or two) from one thread to another (unrelated) thread and then accusing _them_ of "stalking" _you_, is not productive. This debate ran its course on the other thread. It would be nice if we could drop it now.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

I realize this is going back a few pages... but I think nearly any dog can be "too much dog" for an inexperienced owner who doesn't understand the level of commitment associated with dog ownership. We regularly wonder how Hamilton would have turned out with an owner who did not spend every moment home watching/interacting with him as a puppy, take the time to take him to a bunch of training classes, socialization groups, play groups, etc... If someone just adopted him cause OMG CUTE PUPPY and just wanted a cute small dog as an accessory or something, he would be a total monster. There will always be dogs who are naturally docile and well behaved no matter who they live with, but I think more dogs have the potential for being beastly if the owner isn't prepared to commit to their needs. Conversely, if someone is truly educated in a breed's needs and is 100% committed to their care and training and has realistic expectations for the breed's strengths and challenges, then I don't see why being a first time owner would preclude ownership of any specific breed.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Grubbing for money over the internet rarely works, just fyi.



hueyeats said:


> Why can't I be on this forum if I don't care for listening to some Mbrs???
> 
> You going to waterboard me if I like visiting and bragging about how great Roman is here???


No, I'll just take your advice and ignore you.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Huey, I don't mean to be offensive but do you have any....conditions? I know some of the members here do so just curious I guess.

Your posts always take some...um...interesting paths of logic.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

But ... Real life does that to us all the time.

We "perform" at our jobs because we get paid = positive reinforcement 

Although I don't get paid, I help my OH & some of my friends I the mornings because it makes me feel good = postibe reinforcement 

We obey the laws & rules of society (well some of us do lol) because negitve consequences happen if we don't = negative reinforcement.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Hambonez said:


> I realize this is going back a few pages...


Return to original debate, never!! 



> but I think nearly any dog can be "too much dog" for an inexperienced owner who doesn't understand the level of commitment associated with dog ownership. We regularly wonder how Hamilton would have turned out with an owner who did not spend every moment home watching/interacting with him as a puppy, take the time to take him to a bunch of training classes, socialization groups, play groups, etc... If someone just adopted him cause OMG CUTE PUPPY and just wanted a cute small dog as an accessory or something, he would be a total monster. There will always be dogs who are naturally docile and well behaved no matter who they live with, but I think more dogs have the potential for being beastly if the owner isn't prepared to commit to their needs. Conversely, if someone is truly educated in a breed's needs and is 100% committed to their care and training and has realistic expectations for the breed's strengths and challenges, then I don't see why being a first time owner would preclude ownership of any specific breed.


Agreed. The jump from no dog to any dog at all is a pretty big one. Some dogs require much more than others but they all need a *big* commitment. I'm still impressed with Ham's "counter alarm" system. However you managed that, I want the secret!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

What is even going on here? It's the internet forum. People say stuff about stuff other people said. It doesn't generally lead to people getting waterboarded OR paid. lolz


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> But ... Real life does that to us all the time.
> 
> We "perform" at our jobs because we get paid = positive reinforcement
> 
> ...


Yes, but there are few places that still use physical positive punishment, its pretty rare to get 50 lashes for stealing nowadays. We do have prisons, but that is more deprivation of liberty - negative punishment - than positive punishment.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

aiw said:


> Agreed. The jump from no dog to any dog at all is a pretty big one. Some dogs require much more than others but they all need a *big* commitment. I'm still impressed with Ham's "counter alarm" system. However you managed that, I want the secret!


Step 1: Get a dog who is naturally VERY in tune with patterns of behavior. 
Step 2: Get a Very Bad Cat (VBC) who won't stay off the counters. 
Step 3: When VBC is on counter, yell and run into the kitchen and chase VBC down. Soon dog will run after you barking while you yell. Praise dog for "helping." Dog will then begin running into the kitchen barking at the cat whenever the cat so much as puts his paw on the counter from the bar stools. 

The best is when Ham's having a dinner kong and the cat goes for his after dinner counter patrol, and Ham runs in barking at him, but he won't drop the kong, so you get this mouth-full-of-kong echoey bark. Oh, and he now gruffs any time you say "Atticus."


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> What is even going on here? It's the internet forum. People say stuff about stuff other people said. It doesn't generally lead to people getting waterboarded OR paid. lolz



In theory I have always wanted to waterboard someone.....

Maybe like some evil person I caught that broke into my house and got into my gin...


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## bighairbf (Jul 27, 2013)

Do NOT get a doberman if you hate getting goosed in the butt. 

Do NOT get a doberman if you get stage fright when someone is with you in the bathroom. You will never be alone in your bathroom again.

Do NOT get a Boston Terrier if you aren't okay with drive-by farts.

Do NOT get a Boston Terrier if you can't fall asleep to the sound of a freight train. They will snore 10x louder than that.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

zhaor said:


> Huey, I don't mean to be offensive but do you have any....conditions? I know some of the members here do so just curious I guess.
> 
> Your posts always take some...um...interesting paths of logic.


Yes they do take interesting turns..
Because I do feel.. Aiw, CptJack and Crantastic.. So far this month like to solo me out (check on threads they link and this) for a truth I mentioned of CptJack.. That I feel that sentiment of being told my dog I will not be able to "handle" hence needs to "see that result" in 2 years time... Unlike Thud... Roman is already 1 year old... Is only going to become a better and better dog... I that owner says, Roman is "submissive"... Not all pyr.

Just as CptJack does not like people "criticizing" her dog (unwanted observations like mine own)..
Did anyone put themselves in my shoes = me too don't like that.

Its hypocritical to do what you don't want others to do back unto others... Don't u think???

So.. Its OK that aiw, crantastic and others to criticize me while I can't back???

So yah.. Internet bullying at its finest... Go back and check that other thread too.

P.S. aiw said "I should" listen ( against my will obviously and its all right and just *yah right*)..
I never did insist others should listen to me...

But... Obviously the "gang" insisted and it still doesn't make anything "right".

As to conditions???
What do you mean by that???

The "proof" of internet bullying???? Lol!!!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

hueyeats said:


> Yes they do take interesting turns..
> Because I do feel.. Aiw, CptJack and Crantastic.. So far this month like to solo me out (check on threads they link and this) for a truth I mentioned of CptJack.. That I feel that sentiment of being told my dog I will not be able to "handle" hence needs to "see that result" in 2 years time... Unlike Thud... Roman is already 1 year old... Is only going to become a better and better dog... I that owner says, Roman is "submissive"... Not all pyr.


By "this month" you mean "yesterday and today," when we engaged you in a debate. Not bullying, not "stalking." Debate. Like we do with many people on the forum. We debated with you in one thread. You dragged that debate over to this thread, too, then accused _us_ of being stalkers.

Again, NOBODY told you that you won't be able to handle Roman, or that you will love him less if his personality changes. We simply pointed out that guardian breeds don't tend to mature into their "real" personalities until they're two or three years old. Roman is only one, so his personality may change.

You did say (and I have already quoted it several times when you asked me to) that all pyr are submissive when "trained right." One more time:



hueyeats said:


> Roman's breed (or all dog) if trained right... shows & takes on a natural submissive role (just watch you-tube and read).
> Roman, true to his kind... sits when greeting another dog (or human)...
> "Jump backwards" (in caution NOT fear) when smaller dogs "lunges" to play...
> "Lays down" to play with smaller dogs.
> Rolls over for bellyrubs whenever I ask him to.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Again..
Training is Not a "natural" dog state.
Training = manmade.

If dogs were to obey in anyways human commands and "do that command"...
= submitting to human wishes.
Hence submissive.

A pyr coupled with training (right) = submissive pyr listening to humans when they perform as asked.

So yah... Submissive.

Pyr NOT submissive.. = do what pyr wants and not listening to "sit" or "come" etc.
Human training failed.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

So if trained well, a Pyr is... well trained?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Ah, okay, so when YOU say "submissive," you mean "well-trained." Most people mean naturally soft (possibly unconfident) when they say submissive.

In that case, your original statement would mean, "Roman's breed (or all dog) if trained right... is well-trained." Can't argue with that, I guess?


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> By "this month" you mean "yesterday and today," when we engaged you in a debate. Not bullying, not "stalking." Debate. Like we do with many people on the forum. We debated with you in one thread. You dragged that debate over to this thread, too, then accused _us_ of being stalkers.


I was just minding my business over here debating with JohnnyBandit and CptJack, I had no idea the other thread existed until it was referenced here. I even asked specifically that we not discuss it! Seems a bit like bursting into a room, starting a big fight, and then claiming everyone else stalked you to attack.

Yeesh.

Anyways, moving on....


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

I don't know Huey....a friend of mine owns a very smart, very large dog who listens and obeys to all the things she asks him to do and obeys her commands; however, I would NEVER consider him submissive to her. It's more like he completes the command because he enjoys doing it, not like he feels he has to be in the subservient role. 

Do you think you're using perhaps the wrong word? Like, he's not submissive to you, but rather he's ".......". (Ugh, brain won't recollect the word I am after).



Crantastic said:


> Ah, okay, so when YOU say "submissive," you mean "well-trained." Most people mean naturally soft (possibly unconfident) when they say submissive.
> 
> In that case, your original statement would mean, "Roman's breed (or all dog) if trained right... is well-trained." Can't argue with that, I guess?


That's what I meant, in my last post.....he's well trained and willing, but not submissive.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Again..
> Training is Not a "natural" dog state.
> Training = manmade.
> 
> ...


Your version of "not submissive" is actually just poorly trained. Or a very stubborn dog. Prys, as a breed, are generally extremely independent. 

From the AKC standard: "Character and temperament are of utmost importance. In nature, the Great Pyrenees is confident, gentle, and affectionate. While *territorial and protective of his flock or family* when necessary, his general demeanor is one of quiet composure, both patient and tolerant. He is *strong willed*, *independent* and *somewhat reserved*, yet attentive, fearless and loyal to his charges both human and animal.

Although the Great Pyrenees *may appear reserved* in the show ring, any sign of excessive shyness, nervousness, or aggression to humans is unacceptable and must be considered an extremely serious fault."

They are meant to be reserved with strangers. And they are meant to guard. If Roman doesn't mature into the breed standard, then he isn't really acting like a Great Pyrenees. Then you can't really make assumptions about the breed as a whole. Exceptions to the breed occur all the time. Aussie standard says "they may be reserved during initial meetings". Pepper is always excited to meet new people. Just because he isn't exactly breed standard doesn't make him less of a good dog. Roman is just as good to you even if he matures into a guardy-er dog. I would actually expect him to grow guardy-er. It is his breed, you know.

Moral of the story: Puppies change. They don't always conform to breed standard but the standard helps outline what you can expect.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Can be.... Even "miracles do happen".
If enough time is put in... Like your most "difficult" of dogs.... (who argued pyr are dogs too??? ) No???

Why??? Are you saying its "impossible" to have a Pyr that performs and passes good canine citizen to become that special theraphy dog???

If so... Aren't you guys also preaching you shouldn't bother training that pyr???
Why that trainers are contrary.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Nobody is saying that you shouldn't bother training a pyr.

Nobody is saying that pyrs can't be great dogs.

Nobody is saying that you won't be able to handle Roman when he matures.

Nobody is saying that Roman will be a "bad" dog once he matures.

Nobody is saying that you should love Roman any less if his personality changes.

ALL we are saying is that guardian breeds don't tend to become "set" in personality until they are fully mature. Roman is only a year old, and is pretty much still a puppy. His personality may change. He may not end up being a "white retriever" or a "forever puppy." Refusing to accept that fact isn't going to do him, or you, any favors. And using Roman as an example of what pyrs in general are like is not a good idea.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I have to say..... I have been around a number of Pyrs and other LGDs...

Pyrs tend to be on the softer end of LGDs... But.. they are not what I would call soft..

And I do have to say, over time I have thought many things Huey has described about her dog sound very un Pyr like to me.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> So if trained well, a Pyr is... well trained?


Would a Pyr be well trained if you waterboarded but used peanut butter rather than water?


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Would a Pyr be well trained if you waterboarded but used peanut butter rather than water?


I cannot even handle this question right now.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Your version of "not submissive" is actually just poorly trained. Or a very stubborn dog. Prys, as a breed, are generally extremely independent.
> 
> From the AKC standard: "Character and temperament are of utmost importance. In nature, the Great Pyrenees is confident, gentle, and affectionate. While *territorial and protective of his flock or family* when necessary, his general demeanor is one of quiet composure, both patient and tolerant. He is strong willed, *independent* and *somewhat reserved*, yet attentive, fearless and loyal to his charges both human and animal.
> 
> ...


Thank you.
Exactly.

Poorly trained or not even putting in time to train is probably what Pyr are breed to be. 
= minimum human contact.... Guard sheeps for days "without" human intervention.
Independence thinker the beauty of breed standard.

Why Roman is submissive like a child to me????
He is non breed standard for show ring but a full time family pet who is "my" partner.
Velcro dog to human...Not sheeps etc.
Velcro to flock = breed standard... Aloof to humans.
Velcro to me = non breed standard... Aloof to strangers probably even sheeps.

I ask Roman to sit, he sits.
Stay, he stays.
He reads what human wants and willingly do as told...
How is that not submissive to my training commands.

= yah... Roman a pure pyr is trained (manmade via me) to be unlike pyr.
Can be done. I stay with him 24/7... He listen to me... Not another leader (some other trainer) of a stranger pack.
He submit to me... NOT I.e. another issuer of commands (stranger trainer).
So yah... To that trainer... He probably is not submissive.

But I am not talking about another trainer am I.
Roman lives with me... Not someone else.

Just like I only want my kids to be taught and raised by me that responsible parent... 
Why should some strangers do "my" job???

And all parents knoe of growing pains.
Kids become teens... So does Roman.
But... He is so settled now... He will only get better and better. 
Its not like I abuse him so he'll want to rebel against what is already "good" for him. 

If he does not roam (as pyr does)...
He is already "loving" and attached to me.
Submit and commited to my bond.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Would a Pyr be well trained if you waterboarded but used peanut butter rather than water?


Which begs the question, how many DFers would it take to successfully peanutbutterboard a Pyr?


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> In theory I have always wanted to waterboard someone.....


New mod strategy, perhaps?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Thank you.
> Exactly.
> 
> Poorly trained or not even putting in time to train is probably what Pyr are breed to be.
> ...


Hehe... he isn't submitting to you. He's _listening_ to you! Has anyone else in your family ("pack") taken the time to train him? Have you asked strangers to make him do tricks? If not, this gives the affect of him only "submitting" to one person. Pepper was trained by everyone in our family. My mom made my then 2-year-old sister command him to do a variety of tricks. He learned that he must listen to everyone in the house to get a snack.

A Pry in the field is just as trained as Roman. Just in a different way. A Pry in the field with his sheep is trained via his instincts and his surroundings. He is good at his job just like Roman is good at being your pet! A good dog doesn't have to conform to breed standard; Roman is lovely the way he is and I'm sure you'll still enjoy him even if he changes. Its a good thing to keep your eye on.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

hueyeats said:


> = yah... Roman a pure pyr is trained (manmade via me) to be unlike pyr.
> Can be done. I stay with him 24/7... He listen to me... Not another leader (some other trainer) of a stranger pack.


The point -- the thing that started all this -- is that you can't know for sure that Roman is unlike a normal pyr yet. He's still a puppy. He might change as he matures. I hope you will not be unhappy if he does.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I'm just glad I'm not the only stalker around here.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> ALL we are saying is that guardian breeds don't tend to become "set" in personality until they are fully mature. Roman is only a year old, and is pretty much still a puppy. His personality may change. He may not end up being a "white retriever" or a "forever puppy." Refusing to accept that fact isn't going to do him, or you, any favors. And using Roman as an example of what pyrs in general are like is not a good idea.


One... I did not say all pyrs are like Roman.
I shall stress... Again. Of what could be if trained right.
And to my credit... I never even posted that Pyr are a recommended breed to anyone and those threads are many since I joined.
Why do you think that is???

I am not that average dog owner who needs to buy "time" from trainers to correct behaviours that came from owners own lack of time.
I am that breeder's dream if you will type owner who is willing to be with that dog, spend time with that dog day in and day out.
In fact, Roman spends more time with me than my own kids.
He is like my son... Again... Our bonds are strong.
Roman observes me all day long to learn by my side.... Can any crated dog do that???

And I don't recall reading anywhere in saying "forever puppy " of Roman is going to be bad for him...
Nor in describing him as a white retriever (someone else called Roman that) is going to change my relationship with Roman when he should become "oooh Pyrlike".

Come on... I obviously have a Pyr.
Told everyone I researched Pyr befote getting Roman and is MBR of a specialized Pyr breed specific forum.

Why...do I seem as though I couldn't handle Roman nor have knowledge of what Roman is???

Again... I said with sensitive handling and training... And I have all the time in the world (non guilty crated dog due to work normal people) to work with my dog.
How many regular Pyr people (even farms where minimal human contact is ideal) can say that. .

I generalized Pyr???
No. I don't even promote others to want Pyr unless they are "like" me (forever home guaranteed.. free roam pyr, crate unused since potty trained, trust and collar free, Roman can soft mouth me all day long so he remembers what pressure I approve... And to talk to me via mouth... I am comfortable and forever trust he wont hurt me)..
Day in, day out true companion to my baby.

As my child will always be my kids...
Roman will always be my puppy.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> The point -- the thing that started all this -- is that you can't know for sure that Roman is unlike a normal pyr yet. He's still a puppy. He might change as he matures. I hope you will not be unhappy if he does.


Again... Where did you read to make you question I won't be happy if Roman changed???
Is my "forever guaranteed home" falling to deaf ears??

Obviously "your" judgemental attitude.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I said that I hope you will not be unhappy, not that I think you will be.

I also didn't say anything about you rehoming him. You are reading things into my posts that aren't there.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> I cannot even handle this question right now.


I wish someone would waterboard me with Bombay Saphire...


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> Hehe... he isn't submitting to you. He's _listening_ to you! Has anyone else in your family ("pack") taken the time to train him? Have you asked strangers to make him do tricks? If not, this gives the affect of him only "submitting" to one person. Pepper was trained by everyone in our family. My mom made my then 2-year-old sister command him to do a variety of tricks. He learned that he must listen to everyone in the house to get a snack.
> 
> A Pry in the field is just as trained as Roman. Just in a different way. A Pry in the field with his sheep is trained via his instincts and his surroundings. He is good at his job just like Roman is good at being your pet! A good dog doesn't have to conform to breed standard; Roman is lovely the way he is and I'm sure you'll still enjoy him even if he changes. Its a good thing to keep your eye on.


A field trained pyr is trained via environment (farm, flock, sheep behaviour, predator's behaviours, farmer behaviour "ie feed time" etc.)
"Field trained".

A home trained by me Pyr "Roman" 
Is human environment trained.

And I think there is a saying....
"Submit to one's wishes".

One wishes Roman to not wander away from home tuff...
He doesn't wander away like I wished even when gate is left open...
He submitted to "my" wishes.

And as for besides submitting to my commands of basics...
He does it perfectly to DDs and DH.
Don't want any stranger to be able to make him submit to them. 
= Roman submit to family commands only as per my wish.

Sorry but I don't want anyone else to "corrupt" my Roman in training or anything else.
My dog. Not anyone else's.

And if he "becomes" that guarding pyr... So be it.
Just breed standard right??? Lol.
A "bonus" even if I am the one who could live with or without him being "guard pyr".

Nope... Not training him to be one either.
If he wants to be... So what???
Again "bonus".


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> (non guilty crated dog due to work normal people)


Sorry to pull this out but I want to say that people who crate their dogs shouldn't feel guilty. We can't all work at home with the dogs and not all dogs are trust worthy out of their crate. A crate is a little den or home for the dog, not a cage. 

Also, I wish that I could wish my dog to stay on the home turf!


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I wish someone would waterboard me with Bombay Saphire...



Ugh, that would be the worst kind! Who wants to be waterboarded with something that smells (and tastes) like a pinesol and pine needle juice...yerk.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

SDRRanger said:


> Ugh, that would be the worst kind! Who wants to be waterboarded with something that smells (and tastes) like a pinesol and pine needle juice...yerk.


Poor you.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Weird thread. lol

I do want to point out that there are reasons that you would go to a dog trainer even if you are perfectly happy with your dogs. We train 2-3 times a week with trainers and it's not because my dogs are badly behaved.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I said that I hope you will not be unhappy, not that I think you will be.
> 
> I also didn't say anything about you rehoming him. You are reading things into my posts that aren't there.


Oh yeah. I agree... You can hope all you want but its a fact "I am never yet unhappy" of Roman past present or future yet that you needs be hoping to worry for.

I hope you hope for Roman to be forever happy with me though as he is.
I am his pack and mom.

You can also hope him forever loved, unabused.
And he is that... Even if I believe him to submit willingly to me.
Again I believe in mutual trust BTW Roman and me.

Hope will still never change what me and Roman is...

So yes. Hope away.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

...Are you offended by me saying that I hope that you're always happy with your dog?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Man, I need a drink. I've got a bottle of wine in the fridge with my name on it. I'd prefer vodka at this point, but I'll manage.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

SDRRanger said:


> Ugh, that would be the worst kind! Who wants to be waterboarded with something that smells (and tastes) like a pinesol and pine needle juice...yerk.


Bombay is GREAT.... I love it.... Although I am drinking Sailor Jerry Rum right now... It was a gift from a client that owns a bar...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> ...Are you offended by me saying that I hope that you're always happy with your dog?


People should not get offended by anything said on an internet forum...


I will say the first LGD I saw in action was a Pyr..... It pretty much destroyed a yote.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Breaking away from the crazy for a moment...amusing as it sometimes is...

Am I the only one who's adopted a dog only to feel that it was "too much dog" for me? I know I felt completely in over my head with my Carolina Dog. The shelter workers thought she was a lab mix and thought we were a good fit. The entire time I had her, I felt like I was struggling to be the owner she needed...and she was far from my first dog.

My husband and were talking about what we learned this week about Sam's mix. I admitted, honestly, I'm glad the mother's owner was not completely honest about the dogs she had bred with. If I'd known Sam's breed mix ahead of time, I would not have taken him on. A giant Malinois? Definitely too much dog for me. Now that I have him, though, I'm going to do whatever it takes to be what he needs.

And maybe that's the difference...that some people, when faced with "too much dog," for whatever reason, aren't willing to make the changes they need to fit the dog. The dog doesn't fit them, so they get rid of it rather than have to change themselves to fit the dog. It's not that it's impossible for a first time dog owner to do that, but that it is so difficult and most first time dog owners aren't prepared for it. It's hard enough just adjusting to having a dog and all those life changes...why make it even harder?

The dogs I've had that I'd say were "too much dog" for me have forced me to change in ways I might never have otherwise and pushed me to grow in new directions and I'm grateful for that, but it also came with pain, frustration, and struggle. I wouldn't wish that feeling, when you look at your dog and really seriously wonder if you can handle them and give them all they need on anyone. It doesn't come from a place of feeling superior or elitist...it comes from wanting to spare someone else from mistakes I've already made.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I wish someone would waterboard me with Bombay Saphire...


The only comment I'm going to make about this thread is I think I wouldn't mind being waterboarded by mojito. Hmmmmm...mojitos....


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> ...Are you offended by me saying I hope that you're always happy with your dog?


Hope away I said.
And thank you very much for your well wishes.

I hope you are always happy with yours too.
I hope every owners everywhere are happy and non abusive with their dogs and be that owner their dogs wished them to be...

And I sincerely mean that as you will find me that advocate for that dog have that forever home.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Bombay is GREAT.... I love it.... Although I am drinking Sailor Jerry Rum right now... It was a gift from a client that owns a bar...


Sailor Jerry Rum is fantastic (although I drink it with orange pop so that might make you think less of me haha), but gin I just can't get behind....and my brother, boyfriend and father allllll drink the stuff.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Breaking away from the crazy for a moment...amusing as it sometimes is...
> 
> Am I the only one who's adopted a dog only to feel that it was "too much dog" for me? I know I felt completely in over my head with my Carolina Dog. The shelter workers thought she was a lab mix and thought we were a good fit. The entire time I had her, I felt like I was struggling to be the owner she needed...and she was far from my first dog.
> 
> ...



To be honest, and I don't know what this says about my personality: 

I've never felt like I've had too much dog for me. I've been irritated, exasperated, frustrated, aggravated, and sometimes made of "GODDAMMIT DOG", but I've never once considered that I couldn't handle the dog, figure it out and make it work. Maybe that makes me super cocky? I don't know. I don't have a problem making changes to adapt to the dog's needs - I've done that for EVERY dog, though, to various degrees, from super soft ones to super high drive and high energy ones. I expect the dog to make some adjustments to adapt to me and my household and meet me part way. 

I've never had that NOT work for me. I've had dogs I did not LIKE at all, and would not want to live with again, but never had a dog that felt like it was 'too much'.

Maybe I'm just crazy flexible? I don't honestly know. I don't have a ton of rigid expectations when getting a dog, though, so there's not a lot of mental adapting going on once the dog is there. They teach me things, but I've started with the mindset that changes are going to have to be made to work with the dog (on my end AND theirs) and I don't know what those changes and needs are going to be until I'm living with the dog. So, I guess, really, my expectation, and my only expectation, is that there will be challenges and I will meet them.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Bombay is GREAT.... I love it.... Although I am drinking Sailor Jerry Rum right now... It was a gift from a client that owns a bar...


G&Ts are the best, but I'm not so sure about just straight up gin.

During my freshman college days, I remember having such brilliant ideas as bombay + 99 bananas and duct tape flavored vodka. mmmmmm


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

zhaor said:


> G&Ts are the best, but I'm not so sure about just straight up gin.
> 
> During my freshman college days, I remember having such brilliant ideas as bombay + 99 bananas and duct tape flavored vodka. mmmmmm


Nah... College drink is no longer for me.
I like my absinthe straight or 1:2 ratio nowadays.
And no flames for the drink for me... That's quite amateur and kills the total drink quality.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

packetsmom said:


> Breaking away from the crazy for a moment...amusing as it sometimes is...
> 
> Am I the only one who's adopted a dog only to feel that it was "too much dog" for me?


There were times when my first ACD, Bandit, was a puppy that I thought I might had bitten off more than than I wanted to chew. Maybe not over my head but what the hell.... As time went on.... The light came on... I thoroughly enjoyed puppyhood with my other two I acquired as puppies.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

zhaor said:


> G&Ts are the best, but I'm not so sure about just straight up gin.
> 
> During my freshman college days, I remember having such brilliant ideas as bombay + 99 bananas and *duct tape flavored vodka*. mmmmmm


??????????????


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> There were times when my first ACD, Bandit, was a puppy that I thought I might had bitten off more than than I wanted to chew.


That's a really good way of putting it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I've never owned a dog that I felt was too much for me, but I've only had three dogs of my own now, plus one family dog (Samoyed). The Sammie did pull me flat on my face and drag me down the street when we first got her... I was eight years old and determined to walk that dog, and I refused to let go of the leash.  Even though I was only eight, I helped leash train that dog and she ended up a great walker.

I have definitely lived with and dogsat dogs that I would not have been happy owning forever. My brother's pit is an example -- she is FAR too velcro for me, always wanting to be touching people. She does not have SA, but she doesn't like it when her people leave, and will pace and seem bored and restless. I dogsit a pom sometimes that I think is a great little dog but also wouldn't want -- she is whiny and needy and always needs to be under my chair, sitting on my feet, or in my lap. I guess I just don't mesh well with dogs that want my attention all of the time -- that is overwhelming to me.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah I still feel that the Giant schnauzer is more dog than I really am suited to. Luckily she loves me enough to put up with me... although I feel I let her down by not doing dog sports or something like Search and Rescue- she has quite the nose-- we were in line at a mobile vet clinic in front of a pet store and she dragged me over to a huge mountain of cardboard treat boxes that were getting ready to be broken down-- nosed through the pile and put her paw on one and just kept nosing me til I got it for her-- sure enough in one corner was a little biscuit she wanted...
My one warning would be-- velcro, and desires training/ work with its handler-- and too big/ strong of a dog to really ignore when they want/need something....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I've never owned a dog that I felt was too much for me, but I've only had three dogs of my own now, plus one family dog (Samoyed). The Sammie did pull me flat on my face and drag me down the street when we first got her... I was eight years old and determined to walk that dog, and I refused to let go of the leash.  Even though I was only eight, I helped leash train that dog and she ended up a great walker.
> 
> I have definitely lived with and dogsat dogs that I would not have been happy owning forever. My brother's pit is an example -- she is FAR too velcro for me, always wanting to be touching people. She does not have SA, but she doesn't like it when her people leave, and will pace and seem bored and restless. I dogsit a pom sometimes that I think is a great little dog but also wouldn't want -- she is whiny and needy and always needs to be under my chair, sitting on my feet, or in my lap. I guess I just don't mesh well with dogs that want my attention all of the time -- that is overwhelming to me.



You really should get a LGD when you have the space, time and money. you're perfect for them.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

zhaor said:


> G&Ts are the best, but I'm not so sure about just straight up gin.
> 
> During my freshman college days, I remember having such brilliant ideas as bombay + 99 bananas and duct tape flavored vodka. mmmmmm


Kirkland vodka and fresh squeezed lemonade right now Yum and sure hits the spot after a long hot day....


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CptJack said:


> You really should get a LGD when you have the space, time and money. you're perfect for them.


From what I've read about them, I agree! My last dog, as I've mentioned, was a 90lb spitz/herding mix (malamute and BC, supposedly), and had a sort of LGD-like temperament. I loved that dog. My current two enjoy affection, and Crystal will climb into my lap if she has the opportunity, but most of the time they like to chill near but not on me. Right now, Crystal is on one of her beds and Cas is lying on the floor beside my chair, and we're all quite content.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> ??????????????


I can envision duct taped flavored vodka... There is a brand called Skol at the liquor store that is 11 bucks for a 1.75 liter... That stuff can't be good.


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## Aska (Jun 9, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> I've never owned a dog that I felt was too much for me, but I've only had three dogs of my own now, plus one family dog (Samoyed). The Sammie did pull me flat on my face and drag me down the street when we first got her... I was eight years old and determined to walk that dog, and I refused to let go of the leash.  Even though I was only eight, I helped leash train that dog and she ended up a great walker.
> 
> I have definitely lived with and dogsat dogs that I would not have been happy owning forever. My brother's pit is an example -- she is FAR too velcro for me, always wanting to be touching people. She does not have SA, but she doesn't like it when her people leave, and will pace and seem bored and restless. I dogsit a pom sometimes that I think is a great little dog but also wouldn't want -- she is whiny and needy and always needs to be under my chair, sitting on my feet, or in my lap. I guess I just don't mesh well with dogs that want my attention all of the time -- that is overwhelming to me.


Livestock guardian would be perfect for you!

I love velcro dogs, I want to feel needed.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I can envision duct taped flavored vodka... There is a brand called Skol at the liquor store that is 11 bucks for a 1.75 liter... That stuff can't be good.


For some reason I was thinking it was purposefully meant to taste like duct tape. 

I should go to sleep. lol


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> I guess I just don't mesh well with dogs that want my attention all of the time -- that is overwhelming to me.


How would you feel about waking up in the night and having your dog sitting there staring at you?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> From what I've read about them, I agree! My last dog, as I've mentioned, was a 90lb spitz/herding mix (malamute and BC, supposedly), and had a sort of LGD-like temperament. I loved that dog. My current two enjoy affection, and Crystal will climb into my lap if she has the opportunity, but most of the time they like to chill near but not on me. Right now, Crystal is on one of her beds and Cas is lying on the floor beside my chair, and we're all quite content.


Yeah, like you I need some aloofness at least. Bug is PERFECT for my husband, but I 'touch out' with her pretty fast. The others - well, the RT are probably more velcro than you could handle, in as much as they're usually at someone's feet or following from room to room, but they're also not in my face and demanding and if they don't get affection for a bit they go move to a bed and nap there. Kylie nails it. Thud is... Thud. Which is an interesting mix of I DO WHAT I WANT and I LOVE YOU SO MUCH!!! ANYTHING YOU WANT! LOVE ME BACK!

I'm hoping he picks a personality as he matures.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How would you feel about waking up in the night and having your dog sitting there staring at you?


I crate my dogs at night to avoid just such a situation! Haha. My dogs are mostly uncrated now (they are trustworthy loose while I'm away), but I crate at night because I'm a light sleeper and I don't want them wandering around.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How would you feel about waking up in the night and having your dog sitting there staring at you?


Mia does that all the time. A few nights ago she decided we shouldn't sleep past 2 am. I woke up several times with her face just a few inches from mine, just staring away.

Cran, my paps are both super velcro and up in your business all the time.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

My dogs both follow me a lot... that doesn't bother me. But dogs that won't let me use the bathroom in peace, or that need to jump up every single time I stand up... that annoys me a little bit! Mine are about 50/50 -- sometimes they follow me to the kitchen and watch me cook, and sometimes they don't bother and just stay napping on their beds. Sometimes they jump up when I stand up, and sometimes they don't care.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Crantastic said:


> My dogs both follow me a lot... that doesn't bother me. But dogs that won't let me use the bathroom in peace, or that need to jump up every single time I stand up... that annoys me a little bit! Mine are about 50/50 -- sometimes they follow me to the kitchen and watch me cook, and sometimes they don't bother and just stay napping on their beds. Sometimes they jump up when I stand up, and sometimes they don't care.


Mine follow me into the bathroom and jump up at every movement.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> ??????????????


Long story short, apparently if you duct tape shut a bottle of smirnoff because you lost the cap. Then try it a week later, it absorbs that oh so delicious duct tape taste.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> My dogs both follow me a lot... that doesn't bother me. But dogs that won't let me use the bathroom in peace, or that need to jump up every single time I stand up... that annoys me a little bit! Mine are about 50/50 -- sometimes they follow me to the kitchen and watch me cook, and sometimes they don't bother and just stay napping on their beds. Sometimes they jump up when I stand up, and sometimes they don't care.


Yeah, that's almost what I mean by Kylie nailing it. The only time she is on me is when we're sleeping. My bathroom is upstairs. 95% of the time when I leave the computer to pee, Frost, Thud, and Bug follow me. Jack not so much, Kylie usually snorts and goes back to what she's doing, with the assumption that I'll be coming back. Once I'm there Frost and Thud leave me alone. 

Bug shoves her face under the door crack (as best she can) and snorts balefully. THAT is too much for me, by a magnitude of 10. LOVE HER dearly but if I was single she would not be a dog I owned. The other 3 members of the family enjoy her though so I suck it up.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Mine follow me into the bathroom and jump up at every movement.


I absolutely love going to Crystal's breeder's house and getting chased and climbed on by six papillons (plus whatever puppies are there), throwing the ball for them and having them shove it into my hand over and over and over again... and then going home afterwards and leaving them all there. 

It was so funny when I went to my AKK breeder friend's house recently to meet her new litter. All of those dogs pretty much ignored me. One of the two adults tried to climb onto my lap at one point, which was unusual. The other came over for a scratch a couple times. The puppies waddled over to me a couple of times, but mostly amused themselves playing with toys. So different from all of the papillon litters I've met!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Mine follow me into the bathroom and jump up at every movement.


Mine, too. Honestly it often annoys me but I wonder if I would miss it if I had more aloof dogs.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Between four months of age and a year in Age.... Bandit separated my ribs, knocked a dinner plate size in my wall (not chewed, knocked a hole with his head) and busted out the passenger side window in my truck....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> I crate my dogs at night to avoid just such a situation! Haha. My dogs are mostly uncrated now (they are trustworthy loose while I'm away), but I crate at night because I'm a light sleeper and I don't want them wandering around.


I like it that my dogs, Merlin at least, watch over me while I sleep... He never wakes me up.. Never touches me. I waked up and he is watching me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Between four months of age and a year in Age.... Bandit separated my ribs, knocked a dinner plate size in my wall (not chewed, knocked a hole with his head) and busted out the passenger side window in my truck....


I think the win for destructive behavior still goes to Kylie, sadly. INJURY goes to the pyr that broke several of my fingers. Kylie? Ate a large chunk of my love-seat, 2 feet of baseboards, a cabinet door, clogged my toilet (three times) and yanked a section of drywall out with the shower curtain. Oh and removed some of the insulation from our wall while we were remodeling and spread it everywhere. Thud took out the stair railing and broke the glass-topped coffee table. Somehow Kylie's was worse, but I think it was because she was insane and would not stop SCREAMING while she did it. 

I do not want to imagine that dog 4 times her size.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Hamilton is absolutely the most clingy, cuddley, velcro dog.... except when he's not. It's weird. I'm very obviously the best person ever invented (if you ask him), and over the course of a day, he will have jags where he needs to be on top of me, or at the very least, touching me. He will follow me wherever I go, sit outside the bathroom door and wait for me, etc... But then there are other times where he is happy looking out the window or sleeping by himself on the couch. There are times when I have my personal space freak outs, but I can see how it could be worse if there were never the times when he was ok alone. I also enjoy the puppy cuddles, it's really sweet and he's toasty warm, but I just don't want them all the time. Another Hamilton dichotomy that's sort-of related - if I leave, he has no separation anxiety. He doesn't try to follow me out, doesn't cry, doesn't destroy things when I'm gone. He appears to just go to sleep until I come home. However, if I'm HOME and he is unable to get to me, like if I gate him in a room so I can get something done or have some alone time with my husband, he barks/cries/shrieks/howls until he can get to me again. It's really obnoxious.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Between four months of age and a year in Age.... Bandit separated my ribs, knocked a dinner plate size in my wall (not chewed, knocked a hole with his head) and busted out the passenger side window in my truck....


Now this I can appreciate. Mr. Boats has had to repair and re-drywall big holes (yeah...more than once) in our walls from our rotties. Lars broke the back off of our old couch. Couple weeks ago the boys together flipped over our 7' new couch. Our stockade fence currently has a Rottweiler head sized hole in the bottom where someone crashed through it to get a ball. Oy. LOL


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

CptJack said:


> To be honest, and I don't know what this says about my personality:
> 
> I've never felt like I've had too much dog for me. I've been irritated, exasperated, frustrated, aggravated, and sometimes made of "GODDAMMIT DOG", but I've never once considered that I couldn't handle the dog, figure it out and make it work. Maybe that makes me super cocky? I don't know. I don't have a problem making changes to adapt to the dog's needs - I've done that for EVERY dog, though, to various degrees, from super soft ones to super high drive and high energy ones. I expect the dog to make some adjustments to adapt to me and my household and meet me part way.
> 
> ...


Whenever my fiancee gets frustrated with Ammy's puppy antics I always tell him, you don't just give up on something because it's hard. I really agree with most everything in this post, to me when you get a dog whether he's a perfect match for you and your personality or if he's a challenge almost every day, when you got your dog you made a commitment. I don't know about most people, but I don't give up on my commitments, no matter how hard it gets. 

Packetsmom- I was considering getting a carolina dog at one point but I couldn't find much literature on them. Reading your posts about your girl has been an eye opening experience, thanks a lot for sharing them.


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## zeronightfarm (Jun 15, 2011)

Jrt - zoom, boing, crash!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

No worries, Kyndall54. She was an adventure and I wish I could go back and have a "do-over" with her. I feel like I'd be much better for her now than I was then.

So...

Carolina Dog - accept that this is a pariah dog and not bred to be a pet. The rewards you offer for obeying need to be tangible to the dog and they will always measure the value of them vs. doing their own thing. They have similar recall issues to huskies and such and it can be very hard to train them to the point they can be off leash. They can easily scale a 6 foot tall fence, so containment without a leash can be tough. They can be difficult to bond with if you are not used to very independent dogs.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Hmm, I've had lots of dog damage, but I never thought that meant the dog was "too much dog". I just figured they were like kids . I guess I've never felt like a dog was "too much dog" for me at all. Annoying, maybe. More work than I would prefer, maybe. But I don't think the concept of too much dog ever occurred to me.

Anyhoo, on the original subject, I have big hairy dogs. So, they're 1.) big, 2.) hairy, and 3.) dogs. These things seem to be difficult for some people. or at least "too big", "sheds too much", and "does (x thing dogs do)" seem to be common reasons for people to get rid of their dogs.


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## Kyndall54 (Apr 26, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> No worries, Kyndall54. She was an adventure and I wish I could go back and have a "do-over" with her. I feel like I'd be much better for her now than I was then.
> 
> So...
> 
> Carolina Dog - accept that this is a pariah dog and not bred to be a pet. The rewards you offer for obeying need to be tangible to the dog and they will always measure the value of them vs. doing their own thing. They have similar recall issues to huskies and such and it can be very hard to train them to the point they can be off leash. They can easily scale a 6 foot tall fence, so containment without a leash can be tough. They can be difficult to bond with if you are not used to very independent dogs.


From what you've mentioned of them they do sound like difficult dogs and definitely not a "first time" breed. In the end probably not the breed for me. Unlike with my cats, I do generally like to have a dog that cares if I'm around or not and is generally affectionate. But I wish there was more information about them around, so more people could determine if they were the breed for them or not!


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How would you feel about waking up in the night and having your dog sitting there staring at you?


If Wally did it, I'd get worried because it means he feels something is wrong and he wants me to "fix it" (like I can).

Last time he did that, he went into a severe seizure...and before I got him on meds, every time, just before a seizure, he would come over to me and whine and just stare at me whining like "help me - it's going to happen again!"


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

MrsBoats said:


> Now this I can appreciate. Mr. Boats has had to repair and re-drywall big holes (yeah...more than once) in our walls from our rotties. Lars broke the back off of our old couch. Couple weeks ago the boys together flipped over our 7' new couch. Our stockade fence currently has a Rottweiler head sized hole in the bottom where someone crashed through it to get a ball. Oy. LOL
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


That made me laugh out loud. I also can appreciate the destruction that can happen in a house with large dogs. I was redoing our older home. Just put in a new very large bay window. After about a week or so I am in the back of the house when I hear one of my dogs run growling toward the front (the mailman is here) then that sound was followed by a huge crash. Not only did the glass break but a whole pane of the bay window is now pushed out. That was a very expensive oops. The poor mailman had jumped off the porch and was running away. We had to do some major "sorry, so sorry" after that. 

One other time, same dog sees a squirrel outside and slams headfirst into the deck door knocking it right off the house. Oh yeah, those giant heads being used as battering rams can cost a lot of repairs. ha ha


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How would you feel about waking up in the night and having your dog sitting there staring at you?


I wake up like that a lot. Sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and he's standing over me...or I will wake up on the couch and his face is two inches from mine and he's just staring. Very creepy


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I am so used to my dogs hovering around me at all times, staring at me etc.. that I am genuinely uncomfortable without it lol


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

What an odd discussion, but fortunately, my desire for a drink waned by the last two pages (good thing as it's not even 8:30am and I'm at work).



bighairbf said:


> Do NOT get a doberman if you hate getting goosed in the butt.
> 
> Do NOT get a doberman if you get stage fright when someone is with you in the bathroom. You will never be alone in your bathroom again.
> 
> ...


Um, I think my husband is a Boston terrier. Want him?



JohnnyBandit said:


> How would you feel about waking up in the night and having your dog sitting there staring at you?


I'd rather have her face in mine than her butt, which is usually how we end up by morning.



CptJack said:


> I think the win for destructive behavior still goes to Kylie, sadly. INJURY goes to the pyr that broke several of my fingers. Kylie? Ate a large chunk of my love-seat, 2 feet of baseboards, a cabinet door, *clogged my toilet* (three times) and yanked a section of drywall out with the shower curtain. Oh and removed some of the insulation from our wall while we were remodeling and spread it everywhere. Thud took out the stair railing and broke the glass-topped coffee table. Somehow Kylie's was worse, but I think it was because she was insane and would not stop SCREAMING while she did it.
> 
> I do not want to imagine that dog 4 times her size.


How in the world did she clog your toilet? 

I've been very, very lucky. The worst thing Katie has ever done was eating the beard off her stuffed moose.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How would you feel about waking up in the night and having your dog sitting there staring at you?


I get that all the time. I know my dogs don't sleep at night. Once I am up in the morning they all crash in the Living room for about two hours. Lol! 

Destructive? ... Leah Lu isn't the sweet little innocent creature I portray her to be at times ... she has destroyed three dog beds, a couch pillow, 4 towels, the couch cushions, the recliner handle, a hole in the side of the leather recliner, a hole in another recliner, the bottoms of the kitchen chair rungs are re-carved, two end tables are missing corners, the carpet in the sunroom and the living room ..... yep! Have to replace two rooms full of carpeting and 6 kitchen chairs. :/ 

Dad makes one H$%# of a dog sitter! Lol!


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

Happy flushed a rope bone down the toilet....more then once. we learned real quick that the toilet lid stays shut and the door stays closed lol


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## taquitos (Oct 18, 2012)

My dog is a pomeranian rescue mutt so I don't think he's a typical pom, but...

Do not get a Meeko if you are expecting to sleep in..... ever.

Do not get a Meeko if you don't like lap dogs.

Do not get a Meeko if you don't like busy dogs.


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## zack (May 27, 2013)

:wave:






:redface: My one warning about getting a Newfie is - if you are houseproud don't bother as drool knows no bounderies . HA HA.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

I've only owned the one dog, Jubel, but I've fostered a handful of other dogs now. I wouldn't say that I couldn't handle any of them but most of them fall into the category of I'd rather not live with them for the rest of their lives. My long term foster Duncan wasn't a bad dog at all but he wasn't a good fit for us. This weekend I'll be watching Harlee, 10.5 year old basset hound with Addisons', again for 2.5 weeks. Harlee isn't a bad girl but even the 2.5 weeks is going to stretch my patience. She is extremely needy, she doesn't just want to be with you she wants you to pet her ALL THE TIME. She drives me nuts, I only agreed to watch her again because it was looking like no one else was going to and she'd end up being boarded at the vets. I'll put up with her needy behavior rather than the rescue having to foot the bill for boarding her. 

If I actually had adopted any of these foster dogs instead of it just being a foster situation I would have just sucked it up and adapted. In some cases working with the dog a lot to adjust their behavior, in other cases just learn to live with something things. I think I could handle the majority of dogs, the key issue is that I wouldn't really choose to live with a number of breeds. I could adapt but would rather not be put in that situation.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Wheaten terrier - They want your attention, all the time. Don't get one if you don't want to spend time playing, running, walking, training, swimming (or providing some other type of mental stimulation) or cuddling. They are busy dogs, and they want to be with you more than anything.

Oh, and good luck teaching a solid "off". Their love of people and their exhuberence will get in the way of their training in this respect 95% of the time.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> How in the world did she clog your toilet?


Kong tiny-tennis balls have squeakers. If you pry out the squeaker and throw them in the toilet, they will eventually fill with water sink. Like REALLY sink. They are also the perfect size to get stuck.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Kong tiny-tennis balls have squeakers. If you pry out the squeaker and throw them in the toilet, they will eventually fill with water sink. Like REALLY sink. They are also the perfect size to get stuck.


Oh yeah lol, I had to learn they lesson the hard way when I was washing my dogs toys one day & one of those confounded small squeakers went down the sink drain.

Which resulted in having to turn off the water & take that section of pipe out to get it out


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Pugs: They shed, and they shed, and they shed, oh my WORD do they SHED!! It's unbelievable how much hair one little short haired dog can produce, but, wow! I keep two separate wardrobes now, my good clothes and my older, worn out clothes, and I change as soon as I set foot in the house. It's the only way to keep my good clothing reasonably hair free. And even then, that crazy hair floats into my closets and dresser drawers!

Also, (sorry, couldn't keep it to just one, lol) they need quite a bit more exercise than the books and internet sites will have you believe. They're pretty energetic little buggers! In fact, higher than expected energy levels is the second most common reason (behind shedding) that they get turned into rescues.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Just happen to love this blog about Pyrs (what they are not).
***I read this 1 year back.*

*"Glenn’s Take: What Great Pyrennes are not*

-lap dogs. My lap is not big enough to share with a 100+ lb dog.

-car dogs. Both inside and outside. Outside the car, they believe that any and all cars or trucks or semis or freight trains will stop for them (this is the reason that this is the number one cause of Pyrennes’ death). Inside the car, they will jump on your lap while you drive and act like a deployed airbag, all the while breathing their wonderful breath and maybe licking your face.

-apartment dogs. They have luxurious coats that are made to live outdoors, even with frosty winter nights. On hot days, they need shade.

-dependants. Well, they are, but no one ever can tell them this. They don’t know that they need you. They honestly believe that you need them. They love you with a passion, but can be aloof and not come to your call, especially if they perceive that there is patrolling or protection business at hand. But all that said, they are the kindest, sweetest, most protective free agent friends a person could have.

-mechanics companions. Every Pyr we have had feels that it is his or her duty to wiggle and snuggle next to me while I am under a vehicle working on it and lick my face in this place where I am totally defenseless. Remember, you can’t slap or hit your Pyr. They only really respond to Alpha rollovers with neck and ruff grabs (they will really respect you for that). Not enough room under the car…

-dogs who do tricks like fetch, roll over, play dead. These Pyrs have a great sense of dignity. This does not mean that they are not playful. On the contrary, they are great tag players, wrestlers, and lovers of fun. What is really cool is to see all of them play with different levels of strength with each of us. They will wrestle really hard with Glenn (dad) but very gently with the little kids, putting the kid gloves on with our 5 year old. They are the one dog breed that we know that we can really trust with the kids, even while they have litters of little ones of their own.

-frisbee dogs. I’ve never seen a Pyr with an interest in fetching and retrieving. I have seen them grab my stuff often and hide it in some warped mind game they play. I have lost gloves only to find them weeks later a quarter mile away. This leprecaunic habit is common through the breed."

--Glenn


http://www.idahopyrenees.com/all-articles/great-pyrenees-are-not/

Still a word of caution and why you won't ever find me recommending Pyr to anyone...
You need that "time" and that "owner's bond & touch" if you want Pyr as a pet.
Lack of time???
Don't ever get a Pyr or any dog for the matter...

(House destruction is not what any normal owner can deal with, time (to supervise) and money-wise...)


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> They only really respond to Alpha rollovers with neck and ruff grabs (they will really respect you for that).


Wow. Prys only can be handled by Alphas! I'm not even sure I could Alpha roll a 120lb dog... Or if I'd want to.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Wow. Prys only can be handled by Alphas! I'm not even sure I could Alpha roll a 120lb dog... Or if I'd want to.


Yeah. That's totally what everyone said here. Saying a dog breed isn't submissive means you need to alpha roll them. No reading comprehension problems on Huey's part at all.

(Thud's a 90lb puppy and alpha rolls himself on a regular basis. He also bites, herds, and is stubborn as a mule and just about as inclined to be generally submissive as one. )

(Not directed to you at all RabbleFox just general frustration)


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeah. That's totally what everyone said here. Saying a dog breed isn't submissive means you need to alpha roll them. No reading comprehension problems on Huey's part at all.
> 
> (Thud's a 90lb puppy and alpha rolls himself on a regular basis. He also bites, herds, and is stubborn as a mule and just about as inclined to be generally submissive as one. )
> 
> (Not directed to you at all RabbleFox just general frustration)


Hahah its totally cool. I just hate when dominance theory makes its way into threads...

If Thud alpha rolls himself, you are the ultimate leader. I heard a guy on TV say that once.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Hahah its totally cool. I just hate when dominance theory makes its way into threads...
> 
> If Thud alpha rolls himself, you are the ultimate leader. I heard a guy on TV say that once.


I AM THE ULTIMATE LEADER!!! Because I give really, really good tummy rubs, but also because he's slept like this since he came home:










Well, upside down. No part of him fits under the furniture anymore.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think that hueyeats even believes in alpha rolling, so I'm not sure why she's quoting someone who recommends it.

Sometimes I jump at Casper and yell "ALPHA ROLL!" and flip him onto his back. He loves it. I think I'm doing it wrong.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> I don't think that hueyeats even believes in alpha rolling, so I'm not sure why she's quoting someone who recommends it.


Because I said pyrs weren't submissive and their personality changed. That means I believe they need to be alpha rolled or... something.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Sometimes I jump at Casper and yell "ALPHA ROLL!" and flip him onto his back. He loves it. I think I'm doing it wrong.


I don't know. You could be such a good alpha that your dog just enjoys being dominated by you. You are also the ultimate leader!


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Bonus points if your dog "alpha rolls" themselves and then you belly rub them in the magic spot where it makes their leg twitch. That means you've dominated their very nervous system!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Because I said pyrs weren't submissive and their personality changed. That means I believe they need to be alpha rolled or... something.


Hm, I took it to mean that she actually likes that blog ("Just happen to love this blog about Pyrs") and that she was using that passage to illustrate why a pyr isn't for everyone. She's said in the past that she doesn't do stuff like alpha rolling, so it seemed odd to me that she'd hold that up as an expert opinion. Maybe she read that blog about as carefully as she reads people's posts here.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Hm, I took it to mean that she actually likes that blog ("Just happen to love this blog about Pyrs") and that she was using that passage to illustrate why a pyr isn't for everyone. She's said in the past that she doesn't do stuff like alpha rolling, so it seemed odd to me that she'd hold that up as an expert opinion. Maybe she read that blog about as carefully as she reads people's posts here.


Oh. I must have missed that. I admittedly stopped following the thread for a bit. You're probably right.


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## Paviche (Aug 26, 2011)

Brittanys: You are never going to be alone again. Ever.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> Bonus points if your dog "alpha rolls" themselves and then you belly rub them in the magic spot where it makes their leg twitch. That means you've dominated their very nervous system!


I agree with this one a lot.
Roman does it since 5months of age daily during our TV room bond time.
I think even my pic. thread have pictures of him doing that that I posted a while back.

P.S. Like I said... Read Randy Grim.. Around pg. 139.
The submissive wolf play "roll over"... It is an "act". Per the new study.
When that alpha wolf needs to really show dominance... Almost never to a family MBR... Say a strange wolf... That would be probably more like a fight to death = not play act.

Thus when a dog wants to bite, it won't hold back.
If it holds back... It does not really mean a hurt... But a warning.

And "Glenn's" alpha roll (underneath the car) is to make people laugh I presume.
And if he has that loving relationship with his pyr...
Who am I to be so petty as to judge him???

The trainer nor that author of dog books or commentator of the posts on Internet can have as close of a relationship than should between dog and owner themselves.
Sitters, trainers even vets etc... A dog owner may hire and fire as many as they like.
Nothing but a "temporary" presence unlike that of a committed dog & owner relation.


What pyrs "are not".

Add: seems funny all the wannabes have problems with anyone who has a good relation with pyrs.
Wonder if its that sour grape mentality.

Also reinforce my beliefs most trainers are but "big mouth" scammers.
If medicines is only a practice science... Dog training (he says she says... Yet always changing) are but human studies. Not real science... Unlike mix chemical a with chemical b in this mathematical ratio will result in this chemical or effect.

What grounds on who is really right???

Remember... CM is a dog trainer too!!!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

There is a Pyr at the Alpaca farm that wants to eat Merlin....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> There is a Pyr at the Alpaca farm that wants to eat Merlin....


Good guardian, then?


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Add: seems funny all the wannabes have problems with anyone who has a good relation with pyrs.
> Wonder if its that sour grape mentality.
> 
> Also reinforce my beliefs most trainers are but "big mouth" scammers.
> ...


Firstly, CM isn't really a trainer. He is a dog bully. A shut down dog isn't trained, its just to scared to act.

Dog training is always changing because it is fluid. People come in with new ideas and old ideas get thrown out or re-imagined. Any field should always be looking to change it up. If medicine never changed we'd still be using bone saws. If business never changed we'd have a stagnant economy. Change isn't always bad. You must look at it from all angles and consider potential outcomes. Will this new training method hurt my dog? Will my dog respond to this method? Is this method right for dogs in general? Is this method the public can use safely on their dogs? Can I effectively teach this method?

Most good trainers aren't "big mouth scammers" if they compete and earn titles. You should look for trainers who competes and wins when looking at trainers. You should be looking for a trainer that has experience. How do you make up an obedience title? Or fudge an agility title? You can't! The proof is in the competition pudding. And successful students is the marker of a good teacher/trainer. If you title many dogs in a field, then you are probably good at it. If you are good at, why not teach others your methods? Maybe you've thought of something no body else has and it works!*

*Note: For the record, CM does not do this. He uses fear and intimidation over and over to "train" dogs. He is not reinventing a training method or using science. Positive Reinforcement training is science based. If you can train a hyena, an elephant, and a maned wolf successfully using P+, it probably will work for dogs. Studies have been conducted that prove that this method is one of the best to train animals, especially such animals that are so in tune with humans, AKA dogs.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I can't even figure out what hueyeats is trying to say there. Is it some kind of if/then statement? "If CM is a dog trainer, and CM is bad, then dog trainers are bad?" Not really sound logic.

I also don't understand why hueyeats keeps referring to CptJack, who has owned a pyr for its entire life and fostered more, as a "wannabe" when it comes to pyr knowledge. Or why she keeps thinking that we all dislike pyrs or assume that no one can handle them. I think that all of us like and respect the breed. I have said several times over the past few days that I would love to have an LGD because their temperament suits me. CptJack owned a pure pyr and was happy with that dog. And NO ONE has said that pyrs are untrainable or that Roman is going to turn into a devil dog when he matures.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Great Pyrenees were on the list of breeds I was seriously considering. I'm sure they love the winters up here, although you might lose one in the snow.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

We "alpha roll" if by "alpha roll" you mean rub her puppy tummy until her leg starts going. I just don't see how an actual alpha roll would seem like a good idea to anyone. But I've noticed it's been cropping up in more and more threads this week, along with being the "pack leader". Makes me a little sad. 

Of course, I'm always looking for an excuse to show off Annabel "alpha rolling" herself. In the car, no less!










I've always liked pyrs. They're beautiful and powerful. We looked into the breed when we were first starting research, but they just didn't fit our temperament and lifestyle. The Goofy Newfy, on the other hand, was a perfect fit. They're a lot of dog (and we're preparing for a lot of drool and a lot of hair), but it's totally worth it. Look at that face!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Crantastic said:


> I also don't understand why hueyeats keeps referring to CptJack, who has owned a pyr for its entire life and fostered more, as a "wannabe" when it comes to pyr knowledge.


I believe in a single post in another thread, CptJack jokingly referred to Thud as a "Pyr wannabe." Which clearly invalidates all of her previous experience with the breed.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I believe in a single post in another thread, CptJack jokingly referred to Thud as a "Pyr wannabe." Which clearly invalidates all of her previous experience with the breed.


Oh, good god.  Sadly, you're probably right. 

I'd reiterate that he ain't the dog I'm basing Pyr experience on, and mumble something about the breed club and breed standards, but it's early, I'm not caffeinated, and I can't be arsed. 

I kind of wish he was more pyr-like some days, though. I could live with less herding, drive, and energy once in a while. Especially combined with his pyr-like bits.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Actually to me Thud looks more like a Anatolian then a pyr.

But ... WTH do I know I have only owned one guardian breed so I guess that makes me a "wannabe".


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Actually to me Thud looks more like a Anatolian then a pyr.
> 
> But ... WTH do I know I have only owned one guardian breed so I guess that makes me a "wannabe".


I agree that he looks a lot like an anatolian, actually, and it's possible since there are some out there - there are just a lot more pyrs, and given what his coat is doing as it (slowly) turns over.... I just don't know. Both my mutts just have confusing fur.



















Granted, he still has a ton of coat turn over to go and losing puppy coat has been PAINFULLY slow with him. Like I can see it happening, but OMG slow. 

(Still not using him as my experience for LGDs though, so you know. I'm either more or less of a wannabe for it).


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Thud is growing up so handsome! He and Sam have definitely diverged, but I'm still a huge fan of the Thudster.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Thud is growing up so handsome! He and Sam have definitely diverged, but I'm still a huge fan of the Thudster.


Oh, they definitely diverged, big time. It makes watching Sam grow more fun, actually .

Those pictures are both a month/6 weeks old, and Thud currently looks like every bit as much of a wreck as he's occasionally acting. I'm just living in 'he's a teenager, he'll outgrow it' world and gritting my teeth a lot. He's... something.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Granted, he still has a ton of coat turn over to go and losing puppy coat has been PAINFULLY slow with him. Like I can see it happening, but OMG slow.
> 
> (Still not using him as my experience for LGDs though, so you know. I'm either more or less of a wannabe for it).


Alpha roll that puppy coat off him!

Thud and Sam looked like identical puppy twins as babies. Now... Sam is certainly more shepherdy and Thud is more LGD.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

RabbleFox said:


> Alpha roll that puppy coat off him!
> 
> Thud and Sam looked like identical puppy twins as babies. Now... Sam is certainly more shepherdy and Thud is more LGD.


Yep, definitely a kind of cute disparity. I'm kinda wishing that Thud's other half was a saint. Not that Sam got those genes, but you know. Thud is... I don't even begin to know what Thud is. I sound awful and like I don't adore him, but I do. I'd just gotten used to biddable, soft, sensitive dogs who maxed out at 25lbs. At this point Thud's personality is equal parts guardian and shepherd. That's more mind-breaking than I would have thought possible.

(I bathe him a lot? That kind of helps. So does brushing. Then he projectile sheds in his crate and makes his own fur blankets. The brat.)


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yep, definitely a kind of cute disparity. I'm kinda wishing that Thud's other half was a saint. Not that Sam got those genes, but you know. Thud is... I don't even begin to know what Thud is. I sound awful and like I don't adore him, but I do. I'd just gotten used to biddable, soft, sensitive dogs who maxed out at 25lbs. At this point Thud's personality is equal parts guardian and shepherd. That's more mind-breaking than I would have thought possible.
> 
> (I bathe him a lot? That kind of helps. So does brushing. Then he projectile sheds in his crate and makes his own fur blankets. The brat.)


What a lovely combo. I do not envy you. We already have Pepper hair tumble weeds in the dining room no matter how often we sweep/vaccum/dust/whatever. Anything projectile might actually kill my mother. She is a clean freak!


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

Warning about malamutes let's see
1) malamutes blow their coat 2 times a year 6 months at a time
2) stubborn stubborn stubborn. So train train train.
3) they are like big lap dogs, my friend said there is no cuddles like a mally cuddle


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

malamutelove said:


> Warning about malamutes let's see
> 1) malamutes blow their coat 2 times a year 6 months at a time


Hahahaha. Not for the faint of hair, are they? 

FI keeps bugging me that our next dog should be a malmute. I'm not convinced. (I love them, but I'm not sure about the stubborn-ness).


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## malamutelove (Dec 6, 2010)

gingerkid said:


> Hahahaha. Not for the faint of hair, are they?
> 
> FI keeps bugging me that our next dog should be a malmute. I'm not convinced. (I love them, but I'm not sure about the stubborn-ness).


Haha nope. The shedding is crazy. I raked her whole undercoat for 2 hours last week. I thought I got it all out. I just pulled out loose pieces today. I have to brush her again. I am thinking about getting her professionally groomed. I usually do it myself because I used to be a dog washer. 

Well with any dog there is training involved. My malamute has her Cgc so it's not like they are untrainable. They are 100% not like huskies. I have found not all but most mals are pretty mellow and laid back


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

malamutelove said:


> Haha nope. The shedding is crazy. I raked her whole undercoat for 2 hours last week. I thought I got it all out. I just pulled out loose pieces today. I have to brush her again. I am thinking about getting her professionally groomed. I usually do it myself because I used to be a dog washer.
> 
> Well with any dog there is training involved. My malamute has her Cgc so it's not like they are untrainable. They are 100% not like huskies. I have found not all but most mals are pretty mellow and laid back


See, I really like the husky craziness and silliness. I think it would be a great challenge to own one, but I really hope to have one someday in the future. I'm interested in getting into skijorring eventually (you know, when I have an appropriately sized dog), so both mals and sibes would fit that. FI used to read gas meters, and Mals were apparently one of the more friendly breeds. I don't know. I've met quite a few mals, since they're pretty popular here, what with the cold and all. Maybe we'll just get one of each.


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## Rowdy (Sep 2, 2007)

Collies can be STUBBORN. Yes, they are soft-tempered, biddable dogs, but they can be sly and stubborn when they want to do/not do something. Toby is fully convinced that the right thing to do is what HE wants to do, when HE wants to do it. Like all dogs, training is ongoing. Do not expect Lassie right out of the box. A Lassie is made, not born. Also, training has to be interesting and stimulating. A collie will not sit repetitively over and over. You can get them to do that, but you have to change it up: sit here now, sit on the box, come to me and sit, etc. They get bored. Then they get STUBBORN.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Who is playing the "submissive" one in this picture???

Properly trained with "sit" as a second nature...
View attachment 98833

Still does it to this day everytime greeting an old friend or a stranger...

View attachment 98809

View attachment 98817

Always making himself "smaller than" that other "small" dog...
View attachment 98825

Awww... that belly side exposed to say "I'm no threat"...
(Roman is a Pyr who looks like a poodle now due to the haircut)

Not because Roman is afraid of his "older brother" who is obviously much smaller in size...
(1 bite will snap that small neck in half I am sure)...
But because Pyrs generally due to their "gentle" nature have "nothing to proof"...
Hence are usually pretty "lay off don't care-ish" when left alone.

And yah... any abused Pyr (big warning) via neglect or "forced into submission" can result in many Pyrs left homeless (not because the pyr cannot handle itself... but because that owner cannot handle the Pyr).

P.S. Glenn in his blog has already mentioned they as a family has rasied *plenty of Pyrs*... if one knows what plenty of Pyrs mean. 1 Pyr... nahhh still is not more experienced than that other Pyr owner who also has one.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Actually to me Thud looks more like a Anatolian then a pyr.
> 
> But ... WTH do I know I have only owned one guardian breed so I guess that makes me a "wannabe".


Oh my god.... I agree!!!
Looks more like Anatolian than a Pyr.

So... who do one think is more hypocritical as a comparison???

Someone who is trying to validate "what breed" my mix is (thinks it has pyr or anatolian or GSD or lab) or someone who does not cares and oviously knows what their breed already is???

(People who knows don't need to try and "establish" that identity... like if that breed is a dominant trait but has nothing to proof to that smaller dog because it can already know what damage it can seriously do... = control via training or if without training, just a generally mellow yellow dog who has nothing to proof or just a good hearted sweet heart dog who happens to love its people & dogs because it is that "stable" and non-threathened in its environment)

Wannabes doen't it mean someone trying to be something obviously they are not???
Can't say Roman is a wannabe... he is a sweetheart and no one can even argue against that.

And for the rest of the dogtrainers...
Unless you are more famous than CM...

And he is already put down due to his theories...
What makes any of you guys "better"???

"Studies" are not "Real science" with proven results.

Now... a lawyer who is willing to take cases of failed dog training and willing to sue back for damages plus dog (money invested)... with proven results in winning the case... I can see as a better professional investment & filed of studies than that of a dog trainer

I like guarantees.




















OMG!!! That famed "Alpha Roll" that is sooooo "ABUSIVE"!!!
Roman likes it though!:rockon:


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

hueyeats, for like the six millionth time, CptJack owned a PUREBRED PYR for its entire life (and has fostered more). So yes, someone who owned a pyr for its entire life and has worked with others does have more experience than someone who has owned one for a year.



> And for the reat of the dogtrainers...
> Unless you are more famous than CM...
> And he is already put down due to his theories...
> What makes any of you guys "better"???


What kind of logic is this? Since when does fame = quality?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> hueyeats, for like the six millionth time, CptJack owned a PUREBRED PYR for its entire life (and has fostered more). So yes, someone who owned a pyr for its entire life and has worked with others does have more experience than someone who has owned one for a year.


Six million and *last*.

*THUD: NOT A PYR: DOG I CURRENTLY OWN*









*GEORGE: PYR: Owned from 16 weeks to 13 years. PYR PYR PYR*


















Now dead. After 13 years. 

NOT THE SAME DOG.

I do not know how to be more clear!

And really, I"m very sorry that I don't have pictures of the S-Foster Pyrs (names) readily available, so I could point and use small words to demonstrate that. Except I'm not, because I am *really* done with this.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> hueyeats, for like the six millionth time, CptJack owned a PUREBRED PYR for its entire life (and has fostered more). So yes, someone who owned a pyr for its entire life and has worked with others does have more experience than someone who has owned one for a year.
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of logic is this? Since when does fame = quality?


Since forever, duh.  I mean, why would you listen to trained, educated professionals who are constantly engaged in a field, contributing to it and expanding it... over someone who's face is on TV so he must know what he's doing?



hueyeats said:


> Someone who is trying to validate "what breed" my mix is (thinks it has pyr or anatolian or GSD or lab) or someone who does not cares and oviously knows what their breed already is???
> 
> (People who knows don't need to try and "establish" that identity... like if that breed is a dominant trait but has nothing to proof to that smaller dog because it can already know what damage it can seriously do... = control via training or if without training, just a generally mellow yellow dog who has nothing to proof or just a good hearted sweet heart dog who happens to love its people & dogs because it is that "stable" and non-threathened in its environment)


Do you understand that *no one has said that Roman is not a Pyr? And that [n]no one has said Thud is a Pyr? Because it really, really seems like you're just replying to posts that don't exist which really, really, really makes you look... well, kind of crazy. No one has said that training doesn't give you control over a dog... No one has said that Roman isn't stable in his environment, or that he isn't loved.. All people are saying is that his temperament may change as he continues to mature because it is in the nature of Pyrs (as livestock guarding breeds) to do so. Oh, and that owning 1 pyr for the duration of its 13-year life and fostering others is more experience (both in duration and number of individuals) with pyrs as a whole than owning 1 pyr for 1 year (short duration, one individual). I can tell you're not scientifically minded, so let me clarify: ONE of something by itself SHOULD NEVER be considered to be representative of a group of things. Especially a large group of things (like dogs that are all the same breed).*


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> hueyeats, for like the six millionth time, CptJack owned a PUREBRED PYR for its entire life (and has fostered more). So yes, someone who owned a pyr for its entire life and has worked with others does have more experience than someone who has owned one for a year.
> 
> 
> 
> What kind of logic is this? Since when does fame = quality?


Huh!!!
Seems like she owned quite a few "untrained" ones best left alone to its working traits (undefaulted unlike Roman) then.

Not a great pet Pyr nor recognizing that "gentle" part of what could be (the "impossible" trait, I guess) via "her experience".
Mine is more like "Glenn's" take on Pyr... even down to that "Alpha Roll" non-abusive of course OMG!

Fame do speaks volumn..
CM is not only on the US continent but world wide actually.
(Even if I do not agree with his form of certain training methods*** But do agree some methods may work for some dogs than others... Just as I read plenty of other books that trained other ways...)

Books I read, also mentioned the "ugly" side of dog training gone awry...
So obviously even via books (famous NYT best selling authors), not all dog trainers "DO" know what they are doing...
Sure some dog owners whom have "changed" various trainers can tell you...
(Hence hired & fired, unlike the permanancy of a true loyal dog owner relationship).

Trainers will never apply to Roman.
He is soooo good that I am afraid bring in another Trainer (yes, why would he need another leadership example from a stranger who smells of another pack or another pack's pack's leader "in a dog's world of many packs" unless the owner is trying to either "force" him out to join another pack whne he is already comfortable with this present pack???).
Besides, think that dog trainer knows more abour Roman than "ME"???

Do they (trainers) automatically can "mindread" & know how Roman reacts to certain scenario as his "lived in partner" me???

I can claim I know more of Roman than hubby (dog owner)...
Why??? Time spent of course!!!
Other dog trainers who spend what 1 hr per week can have any effect of Roman???
Maybe the "bad effects" especially if using prong or control collars on him... or even the leash corrections.
Why would he needs "corrections or prongs" when he is already walking great without with us???
Who cares if he doesn't for a stranger???
I wouldn't want him just obeying a stranger and just walking off with anyone who may want to steal him would I???


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Oh for the love of god.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have an idea. 

Let's have a drinking game. 

Every time Hueyeats posts and you (general) don't reply, you (general) take a shot. 

Every time someone else does, everyone else takes a shot.

Basically, all drinking, all the time.


----------



## lovedogs2 (Jul 31, 2013)

Lily is a Labradoodle and if I had to give a warning it would be that she is a people dog and wants to be around you all the time.............follows you everywhere. Not that I am complaining but for some that might bother them.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Six million and *last*.
> 
> *THUD: NOT A PYR: DOG I CURRENTLY OWN*
> 
> ...


Just like as easily as anyone can say they have Pyr(s)...
Didn't you see in my siggie of my (many pyrs) expertise plus so many others I also have adopted out *indirectly* (helped)???

Pics are of "wellgroomed" well trained Pyrs... no???


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Basically, all drinking, all the time.


Why do you want me to die of alcohol poisoning?


ETA: It's because I don't have a Pyr, isn't it?


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

:doh:

Why, oh, why don't they make something like a kong toy for humans? We could give Huey one and she'd settle down and work happily on it and we could talk without all the barking. Sigh.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Why do you want me to die of alcohol poisoning?


It'll make the pain stop.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I have an idea.
> 
> Let's have a drinking game.
> 
> ...


I think that would literally kill me. But I have a really low tolerance. But to clarify, are we talking shots of something easy and yummy like Baby Guinness or straight tequila?

In other news, I stand by my Newfy drool warning and raise it by "my back door is now covered in mud with artistically placed paw prints". Water-loving dog + 20 minutes digging in the dirt = white door is no longer white. And the window pane has drool all over it...


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> It'll make the pain stop.


Beautiful, terrible oblivion.


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Just like as easily as anyone can say they have Pyr(s)...
> Didn't you see in my siggie of my (many pyrs) expertise plus so many others I also have adopted out *indirectly* (helped)???
> 
> Pics are of "wellgroomed" well trained Pyrs... no???


Cpt Jack...I'm sorry, but your experience with the breed is clearly invalidated because the dog in your picture needs a brushing. If you really knew what you were doing, you would have clearly brushed the dog before taking its picture, as all true PYR owners do.

Tsk, tsk.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> I think that would literally kill me. But I have a really low tolerance. But to clarify, are we talking shots of something easy and yummy like Baby Guinness or straight tequila?


At this point, I'd drink turpentine. Guinness would be better, though... I think I actually have a nice bottle of wine around here somewhere that I've been saving for a special occasion.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Basically, all drinking, all the time.


So... just an average night then?

(Kidding).


----------



## iilo (May 8, 2011)

What is happening. (apparently the forum doesn't approve of my caps-lock and automatically changed it, but seriously: WHAT IS HAPPENING)


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Cpt Jack...I'm sorry, but your experience with the breed is clearly invalidated because the dog in your picture needs a brushing. If you really knew what you were doing, you would have clearly brushed the dog before taking its picture, as all true PYR owners do.
> 
> Tsk, tsk.


Yeah, I know. My poor dog kept his full coat without needing to be shaved his whole life, but when he hit about 12 arthritis got to him and standing up for long enough to be groomed properly got painful and I was more concerned with happy than totally getting his undercoat out. He also really needed a bath there; he liked to wallow. (Those pictures are of him about 4 months before he died - AND the yard appears to be crap for some reason I can no longer remember. )

BUT I NEVER SHAVED HIM AT A YEAR OLD FOR MATTING. Should have, obviously. That's MUCH better grooming!


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

iilo said:


> What is happening.


Best post of the thread, lol.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> So... just an average night then?
> 
> (Kidding).


Man, sometimes I wish.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Best post of the thread, lol.


AGREED. (too short)


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I make boozy cupcakes sometimes. I think getting drunk off of cupcakes is the best way to go about it, personally.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> I make boozy cupcakes sometimes. I think getting drunk off of cupcakes is the best way to go about it, personally.


Oh that's something I'd never thought of. Recipe? Or method?


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I really, really want to post something else (ahem-appropriatelytitledblacksabbathsong-ahem), but I'll post this instead: Don’t Be An A-hat Contest. Your dog and your liver will thank you.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

cookieface said:


> I really, really want to post something else (ahem-appropriatelytitledblacksabbathsong-ahem), but I'll post this instead: Don’t Be An A-hat Contest. Your dog and your liver will thank you.


I started that. I taught Thud to spin. That was fun. He looks ridiculous doing it. 

I still want my wine.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I dunno. I already have a lot of T-shirts and my liver is kind of an a-hole.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

The most common way is champagne buttercream. Basically just adding a few tablespoons to buttercream recipes (and a bit more sugar to make it not turn to liquid). But I experiment with chocolate and stout buttercream, margarita... The key is keeping it in the frosting. If you put it in the cake, the alcohol burns off in the oven. Yummy, but not really boozy.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> The most common way is champagne buttercream. Basically just adding a few tablespoons to buttercream recipes (and a bit more sugar to make it not turn to liquid). But I experiment with chocolate and stout buttercream, margarita... The key is keeping it in the frosting. If you put it in the cake, the alcohol burns off in the oven. Yummy, but not really boozy.


You have given me my plan for the weekend. Awesome and thank you.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> You have given me my plan for the weekend. Awesome and thank you.


My pleasure. Just be sure to remember the quote "I love cooking with wine - sometimes I even put it in the food!" I find it makes everything taste better when you sample before you bake.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Can't help it if I can keep getting reader ratings to this thread.
All in good fun I'd say.

P.S. As for the 1" fuzz left on Roman's coat people keep saying its shaving.... Read.
I see no difference when at a groomer they trim off the tips of the guard hair or if they trim everything down to that 1 inch.

In fact, "some" Pyr owners do that every single year (per the groomer).
Puppy cut comes as highly recommended.


----------



## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Effisia said:


> I think that would literally kill me. But I have a really low tolerance. But to clarify, are we talking shots of something easy and yummy like Baby Guinness or straight tequila?
> 
> In other news, I stand by my Newfy drool warning and raise it by "my back door is now covered in mud with artistically placed paw prints". Water-loving dog + 20 minutes digging in the dirt = white door is no longer white. And the window pane has drool all over it...


nope you have a Newfie so now it's time to drink like us Newfies.
I'll bring the bottle of screech. 

Also I can bake coffee muffins with screech in them and it tastes wonderful


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

hueyeats said:


> Can't help it if I can keep getting reader ratings to this thread.
> All in good fun I'd say.


Please, educate me... What is a reader rating?


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Like TV ratings. Lol!
Totally non-educational... just for the sheeps.


----------



## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

hueyeats said:


> And for the rest of the dogtrainers...
> Unless you are more famous than CM...
> 
> And he is already put down due to his theories...
> What makes any of you guys "better"???


I don't care about being "better" than anyone else. My goal isn't to beat you, CM, or anyone else on this board. It's to continue to develop Wally - the dog I'm training. Train the dog in front of you as some wise woman said.

Why limit yourself to what any one trainer says? There's a world of information out there. CM is not the answer to life, nor is kikopup, Karen Pryor, Susan Garrett, or anyone else. Take what you can use, file away what might be useful later, and pee on the rest.



hueyeats said:


> "Studies" are not "Real science" with proven results.


If they show me a better way to interact with Wally and it works for us, then I don't care.

Are calming signals "science"? Have they been "scientifically proven"? They can help trainers communicate with their dogs - so does it matter?


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> Like TV ratings. Lol!
> Totally non-educational... just for the sheeps.


I don't think you want to start knocking the intelligence level of other members. As they say, "Never come unarmed and start a gunfight."


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

hueyeats said:


> Oh my god.... I agree!!!
> Looks more like Anatolian than a Pyr.
> 
> So... who do one think is more hypocritical as a comparison???
> ...


Hueyeats, you were warned in the other thread to lay off the rude and disrespectful talk towards other posters. Clearly, you have chosen to disregard my warning, so I hope you enjoy your time out. Hopefully, when you return you'll be better able to disagree with the posters here WITHOUT insulting them.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

KBLover said:


> If they show me a better way to interact with Wally and it works for us, then I don't care.
> 
> Are calming signals "science"? Have they been "scientifically proven"? They can help trainers communicate with their dogs - so does it matter?


I'm confused as to how Huey things "real science" is done, if it is not through studies... But I guess I'll never know now.

In other news.... 

If you want to incorporate really booze into your cupcakes, add some gelatin to your cocktail (or liquor?) of choice, and use to fill your cupcakes. Or cool to room temperature (but not until set!) and beat with butter to make way more boozy frosting***

***I have not yet tried either of these, but I think I know what I'm doing for my next batch of cupcakes...


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I started that. I taught Thud to spin. That was fun. He looks ridiculous doing it.


We need a video!



gingerkid said:


> I'm confused as to how Huey things "real science" is done, if it is not through studies... But I guess I'll never know now.


I was curious about that, but afraid of the answer. 



gingerkid said:


> In other news....
> 
> If you want to incorporate really booze into your cupcakes, add some gelatin to your cocktail (or liquor?) of choice, and use to fill your cupcakes. Or cool to room temperature (but not until set!) and beat with butter to make way more boozy frosting***
> 
> ***I have not yet tried either of these, but I think I know what I'm doing for my next batch of cupcakes...


Or just skip the cupcake and do jello shots. God, I miss college.


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## annadee (Aug 22, 2012)

Man, I go walk dogs at the SPCA for two hours and this is what I come back to. Such drama!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The cupcakes here, numbers 32 and 24 especially, are amazing. The Bailey's frosting in number 24 is the best frosting I have ever tasted (and I worked for years as a baker).


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## annadee (Aug 22, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> The cupcakes here, numbers 32 and 24 especially, are amazing. The Bailey's frosting in number 24 is the best frosting I have ever tasted (and I worked for years as a baker).


I just fainted. OMG.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Make them. You will not regret it.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

no lie, I am making it right now. yummmy yummy


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> The cupcakes here, numbers 32 and 24 especially, are amazing. The Bailey's frosting in number 24 is the best frosting I have ever tasted (and I worked for years as a baker).


I just bought a huge bottle of Bailey's the other day.... thanks a lot!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

If you do make any of those cupcakes, I find that the measurements for their frosting are a little off and it ends up too runny if you do it exactly like they say, so you have to experiment a bit. But it's all delicious.

I made this earlier today, minus the raisins and walnuts. I haven't frosted it yet, but the cake itself is delicious.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

zOMG...I need to make cupcakes now. It is all your fault!


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

I think one warning should be every dog is different. Just because a breed in general is hard, doesn't mean every dog of that breed is the same.

Many people will get a rescue mal, or a softer dog from a litter, or have minimum experience with a breed, and claim "mals make great pets". Granted, that one does, but the majority are not calm, cuddly lap dogs. The more people gain experience with breeds like these they understand.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> I don't think you want to start knocking the intelligence level of other members. As they say, "Never come unarmed and start a gunfight."


Or as I would put it, never bring a rusty can opener to a gunfight.

EDIT: Ah, the sweet relief of silence.

For those looking to calm their nerves I hear zhaor has a lovely duct-tape vintage of vodka.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Effisia said:


> I make boozy cupcakes sometimes. I think getting drunk off of cupcakes is the best way to go about it, personally.


You know what's really REALLY good, liquor filled chocolates. Seriously, one of the best creations in the world. My BILs friend makes them himself, SO good! 

I'll go back to reading through the drama lol. Just needed to throw that out there


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## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

iilo said:


> What is happening. (apparently the forum doesn't approve of my caps-lock and automatically changed it, but seriously: WHAT IS HAPPENING)


Welcome to dog forums where crazy threads like this occasionally happen! I don't participate in such shenanigans but it sure can be fun to read.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

I had no idea this thread had gotten so out of control  but I bookmarked that cupcake page thanks Crantastic you're awesome  my boyfriend will absolutely adore cupcake 24 lol he loves coffee and baileys so YAY


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I wish every thread would end in boozy cupcakes.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> The cupcakes here, numbers 32 and 24 especially, are amazing. The Bailey's frosting in number 24 is the best frosting I have ever tasted (and I worked for years as a baker).


I've had 32 as a picture on my computer forever now. This thread made me go out and buy milk so I could make it. When you made it how many did the recipe make? I am NOT in anyway a baker. I actually HATE baking, and usually I HATE cupcakes, but I was feeling cupcake-y for some reason today. But the recipe made me 14.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't remember how many I got! A friend and I did a baking day a while back and made the chocolate Bailey's ones and the key lime ones, so we had a lot of cupcakes. It was fantastic.










Mine aren't as pretty as the ones on the site, but they tasted so good.


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## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

Mine didn't turned out to pretty either. That frosting WAS very runny, they are in the fridge right now, I'm hoping that chilling it will help it set up a little more. The frosting is practically sliding off the cupcake. For what its worth, I think your look fine.

I haven't eaten one yet, but the batter was so tasty (shame on me, raw eggs, but it was SO good.)


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Just add more icing sugar to the frosting until it's thick enough. Easy fix.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

hueyeats said:


> Huh!!!
> Seems like she owned quite a few "untrained" ones best left alone to its working traits (undefaulted unlike Roman) then.
> 
> Not a great pet Pyr nor recognizing that "gentle" part of what could be (the "impossible" trait, I guess) via "her experience".
> ...



I I I just do not know what to say to this....


over time you have so many things that are uncharacteristic about Pyrs and dogs in general that.... Well.... I do not know what to say.....


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Just add more icing sugar to the frosting until it's thick enough. Easy fix.


Don't frost the liquor.... I will take mine in a glass... No ice.... Preferably with just a 50/50 water mix.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I agree that he looks a lot like an anatolian, actually, and it's possible since there are some out there - there are just a lot more pyrs, and given what his coat is doing as it (slowly) turns over.... I just don't know. Both my mutts just have confusing fur.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No he looks Anatolian to me, maybe Anatolian/pyr


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Just add more icing sugar to the frosting until it's thick enough. Easy fix.


Darn, I wish I would have known this before I frosted them all with the runny frosting. Oh well, that trick is going into the baking file in my brain.


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## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

Pit Bulls: They are just dogs...but they are NOT dogs for just anyone. Like someone else said they are not JUST cuddly, loveable, goofy, 
"angels" (though that is ONE side of their personality) they are also powerful, tenacious, high energy, some times destructive dog. They are VELCRO dogs and will follow you anywhere.....ANYWHERE. They WILL entertain themselves if you don't do a good enough job of stimulating them which usually results in them 'helping' with something such as: Re-carpeting the cat tree by stealing the sisal and carpet swatches, de-pillowing the couch (including couch cushions), Cleaning off the top of your fridge...by jumping on top of it and knocking everything off...and then preforming a (honestly impressive) impersonation of a gargoyle. "All how you raise them" is a MYTH, it is not JUST about how you raise them. Some Pit Bulls WILL be dog aggressive and/or have a high prey drive, this does NOT make them evil, bad dogs or monsters. It does NOT make you a bad owner. If you can not handle or accept this do NOT own this breed or any other bully breeds.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Ok ... I might have to take a swig of corona after this since I don't nor have I ever owned a pyr, (but I did own an Anatolian, does that count for something? Lol) but everything I have read about them says that the WORST thig you can do is shave them, in fact most (general) LGD sites say that you should NEVER shave an LGD.

@captjack I still think Anatolian because our full coated Anatolian had hair just like your Thud.


----------



## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Where did the cupcakes come from and how did I miss that part?! CUPCAKES!!!!!


----------



## Trillian (Jan 17, 2011)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Ok ... I might have to take a swig of corona after this since I don't nor have I ever owned a pyr, (but I did own an Anatolian, does that count for something? Lol) but everything I have read about them says that the WORST thig you can do is shave them, in fact most (general) LGD sites say that you should NEVER shave an LGD.
> 
> @captjack I still think Anatolian because our full coated Anatolian had hair just like your Thud.



As far as I have seen/read/experienced you shouldn't shave anything with a double coat such as those found on a Husky/Malamute/Pomeranian and as far as I know GPs


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Ok ... I might have to take a swig of corona after this since I don't nor have I ever owned a pyr, (but I did own an Anatolian, does that count for something? Lol) but everything I have read about them says that the WORST thig you can do is shave them, in fact most (general) LGD sites say that you should NEVER shave an LGD.
> 
> @captjack I still think Anatolian because our full coated Anatolian had hair just like your Thud.



Yeah, I've been doing more reading/looking around and apparently I'm a dummy because I didn't realize they had a rough coated variety. 

And honestly the similarity's uncanny. Like really, really uncanny. 

So, I'm going with that.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yeah, I've been doing more reading/looking around and apparently I'm a dummy because I didn't realize they had a rough coated variety.
> 
> And honestly the similarity's uncanny. Like really, really uncanny.
> 
> So, I'm going with that.


I agree, just pulled some up on google & if I had to make a guess, I would say he is a rough coated Anatolian 

*takes swig from beer* this is a fun game


----------



## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I thought that Chi/Bad Owner thread was the weirdest thread on this board. It has been officially dethroned by the weirdness of this one. 

(I'm glad Hueyeats is on "vacation" my head hurts after trying to read her posts. )


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> I thought that Chi/Bad Owner thread was the weirdest thread on this board. It has been officially dethroned by the weirdness of this one.
> 
> (I'm glad Hueyeats is on "vacation" my head hurts after trying to read her posts. )
> 
> ...


 I remember that thread  it was weird lol she is hard to understand sometimes


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah, I did not understand why she didn't like others disagreeing with her or if she thought others were dissig her bred or what, which isn't true I love pyrs & the other LGDs ... They just don't meet MY personal criteria for what I want in a dog, that doesn't make them bad dogs, not at all ... It just doesn't make them the right dog for me.


----------



## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> (I'm glad Hueyeats is on "vacation" my head hurts after trying to read her posts. )


Agreed. I mostly just skip them and only go back to them in cases like this where the spark debate/mockery and I need to know what crazy thing she said to follow the discussion. I'm so close to just putting her on ignore but then I'd miss out on the fun in threads like these. Catch 22.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Yeah, I did not understand why she didn't like others disagreeing with her or if she thought others were dissig her bred or what, which isn't true I love pyrs & the other LGDs ... They just don't meet MY personal criteria for what I want in a dog, that doesn't make them bad dogs, not at all ... It just doesn't make them the right dog for me.


Pretty sure she was determined to take 'Roman is a puppy and his temperament will likely change at maturity' as some kind of perceived insult to him. And I do mean determined. You have to work to take being told a breed is not, as a whole, submissive to mean it's a devil dog and a warning that temperaments change as some kind of personal insult. 

Though I'm not quite sure, since she apparently defines submissive as trained, so who knows.



dagwall said:


> Agreed. I mostly just skip them and only go back to them in cases like this where the spark debate/mockery and I need to know what crazy thing she said to follow the discussion. I'm so close to just putting her on ignore but then I'd miss out on the fun in threads like these. Catch 22.


I ignored her for sanity, but people kept quoting her and well. I suck.


----------



## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

CptJack said:


> Pretty sure she was determined to take 'Roman is a puppy and his temperament will likely change at maturity' as some kind of perceived insult to him. And I do mean determined. You have to work to take being told a breed is not, as a whole, submissive to mean it's a devil dog and a warning that temperaments change as some kind of personal insult.
> 
> Though I'm not quite sure, since she apparently defines submissive as trained, so who knows.
> 
> ...


Doesn't help she seems to have a vendetta against you and Cran haha. Others and say the same thing and agree with you guys but you two are apparently the devil incarnate. It's amusing on many levels but trying to read her posts and discern what shes TRYING to say is just so draining sometimes. It isn't really a normal english as a second language writing issue which can make reading some peoples posts harder, she takes it to a whole new level of ????


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Yay cupcake recipes! Do any of you bake for your pups? A friend of mine got a recipe for peanut butter and liver cupcakes or something. I think Annabel would go nuts over it.

As for the rest, I get being defensive of perceived insults to your dog. And of course, all dogs have their own personalities. But since breeders breed to the standard... I dunno, I don't think mentioning a breed's standard should be taken as an insult. Even if your particular dog doesn't act like it. Does that make sense? I don't think that made any sense. Oh well! Cupcakes!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dagwall said:


> Doesn't help she seems to have a vendetta against you and Cran haha. Others and say the same thing and agree with you guys but you two are apparently the devil incarnate. It's amusing on many levels but trying to read her posts and discern what shes TRYING to say is just so draining sometimes. It isn't really a normal english as a second language writing issue which can make reading some peoples posts harder, she takes it to a whole new level of ????


Yeah, I have no idea what I did to her. It's really frustrating. 

It *isn't* an ESL thing, I don't think? It's 'Submissive means well trained, quotes mean emphasis". The language use is just hard to parse out.



Effisia said:


> As for the rest, I get being defensive of perceived insults to your dog. And of course, all dogs have their own personalities. But since breeders breed to the standard... I dunno, I don't think mentioning a breed's standard should be taken as an insult. Even if your particular dog doesn't act like it. Does that make sense? I don't think that made any sense. Oh well! Cupcakes!


Part of this for me is not being able to understand what's insulting about saying LGD are independent thinkers, inclined toward being hard-headed, and often have varying degree of animal aggression or selectivity and an aloof nature. That's like saying Pyrs are mostly white. It just... is, you know? It's not an insult! They're not bad! 4 of my 5 are aloof with strangers. I LIKE that. If I didn't, I wouldn't have the dogs I do.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

dagwall said:


> Doesn't help she seems to have a vendetta against you and Cran haha. Others and say the same thing and agree with you guys but you two are apparently the devil incarnate. It's amusing on many levels but trying to read her posts and discern what shes TRYING to say is just so draining sometimes. It isn't really a normal english as a second language writing issue which can make reading some peoples posts harder, she takes it to a whole new level of ????


I'm amazed that I get off so easily with her these days. I mean, I was her original "stalker."  Sniff, sniff...I've been replaced!


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

dagwall said:


> Agreed. I mostly just skip them and only go back to them in cases like this where the spark debate/mockery and I need to know what crazy thing she said to follow the discussion. I'm so close to just putting her on ignore but then I'd miss out on the fun in threads like these. Catch 22.


FYI, If you have someone on ignore you can selectively view their posts. Like, it puts a spacer in the thread with "UserName Posted. They are on your Ignore List. Click here to view post anyway."

Saves me a lot of time.



Effisia said:


> Yay cupcake recipes! Do any of you bake for your pups? A friend of mine got a recipe for peanut butter and liver cupcakes or something. I think Annabel would go nuts over it.
> 
> As for the rest, I get being defensive of perceived insults to your dog. And of course, all dogs have their own personalities. But since breeders breed to the standard... I dunno, I don't think mentioning a breed's standard should be taken as an insult. Even if your particular dog doesn't act like it. Does that make sense? I don't think that made any sense. Oh well! Cupcakes!


I made sweet potato chicken cupcakes last week for Snowball. I just winged it, but it was approximately 1.5 cups brown rice flour, 1 egg, 1/2 cup water, 1/3 cup coconut oil (melted), and 6 oz pureed raw chicken (put it in the food processor until it was a paste), and about 1.5 cups roasted and mashed sweet potato (measurements are approximate). Just mixed everything together, baked it in some (well greased) muffin tins at 400 for about 30 minutes.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Part of this for me is not being able to understand what's insulting about saying LGD are independent thinkers, inclined toward being hard-headed, and often have varying degree of animal aggression or selectivity and an aloof nature. That's like saying Pyrs are mostly white. It just... is, you know? It's not an insult! They're not bad! 4 of my 5 are aloof with strangers. I LIKE that. If I didn't, I wouldn't have the dogs I do.


Yeah, I'm not sure, either. Also, I think personality shifts in a lot of breeds as they grow older are pretty common, aren't they? It's not like it's just Pyrs. AND no one said it was definitely 100% going to happen, just that you shouldn't be surprised if it does. More helpful than anything. I've already starting anticipating not being able to anticipate whatever happens in the "teenage stage".


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Effisia said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure, either. Also, I think personality shifts in a lot of breeds as they grow older are pretty common, aren't they? It's not like it's just Pyrs. AND no one said it was definitely 100% going to happen, just that you shouldn't be surprised if it does. More helpful than anything. I've already starting anticipating not being able to anticipate whatever happens in the "teenage stage".


Yeah, it's pretty much standard. My little 11lb mutt got pretty dog selective around a year old, but tiny breeds mature faster than large or giant ones. Pits tend to show reactivity somewhere around 2 or 3, that kind of thing. It's just normal dog development. I'm kinda eyeing Thud and working my butt off to reenforce the obedience we have because Anatolian mix or Pyr mix, I'm going to need a super solid base for maturity because of that independence (and the guarding stuff). It's just a thing.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Effisia said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure, either. Also, I think personality shifts in a lot of breeds as they grow older are pretty common, aren't they? It's not like it's just Pyrs. AND no one said it was definitely 100% going to happen, just that you shouldn't be surprised if it does. More helpful than anything. I've already starting anticipating not being able to anticipate whatever happens in the "teenage stage".


That's something that's on my mind often, too. I wonder what half of Sam's parentage will win out in different areas and, until he matures, it's pretty much anyone's guess. Since we're putting off neutering until his growth plates close, I feel like I need to be prepared for anything. I feel like it's good to be aware of potential issues and on the lookout for the early warning signs, should they crop up. I don't think burying my head in the sand and pretending like my training of him will immediately trump any genetics at play.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I was wondering how this thread got to so many pages already, now I know!

All I have to say is... good grief.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> I'm amazed that I get off so easily with her these days. I mean, I was her original "stalker."  Sniff, sniff...I've been replaced!


That's probably because you totally shut her down in the Corrections thread and told her to beat it. LOL 

I just pass over her posts because like I said, the style of writing is so hard for me to wrap my head around. But if something blows up...I'll go back and skim the craziness. I did have someone on ignore for a while...but I couldn't stop hitting show posts just so I could see what sort of insane stuff fell out of their head. As irritated as they made me...I just had to see. So, I took them off of ingore. Now I just start deep, relaxing breathing when I see something that gets my hackles up. Ommmmmm..... LOL


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## Cattledogfanatic (Sep 18, 2011)

I haven't been posting; but I have been reading (or trying to anyway) this very confusing thread. I think Huey wants to be perceived that the resident expert on Pyrs. CaptnJack has more experience. Honestly I think it shows and she doesn't like that. So she trys to tell her she's wrong. When everyone backs up CaptnJack she get's upset. Is anyone else really tired of I don't work. I'm the perfect home for dog. Everything I do is right? I do work but still spend tons of time with my dog and he does so many things anyway!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Cattledogfanatic said:


> I haven't been posting; but I have been reading (or trying to anyway) this very confusing thread. I think Huey wants to be perceived that the resident expert on Pyrs. CaptnJack has more experience. Honestly I think it shows and she doesn't like that. So she trys to tell her she's wrong. When everyone backs up CaptnJack she get's upset. Is anyone else really tired of I don't work. I'm the perfect home for dog. Everything I do is right? I do work but still spend tons of time with my dog and he does so many things anyway!


Her dog eats foie gras. 

She can win that one. Mine get chicken liver. Occasionally I feel generous and bake it.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

The more I look at Thud photos...I'm wondering if I see some Leonberger in him too. According to the AKC page....they do come in a llighter sand color with a black mask. Maybe he's an Anatolian/Leonberger mix?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> The more I look at Thud photos...I'm wondering if I see some Leonberger in him too. According to the AKC page....they do come in a sandy color with a black mask. *Maybe he's an Anatolian/Leonberger mix?*


But then she wouldn't currently own a Pyr at all and thus be completely invalidated as experienced?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


> The more I look at Thud photos...I'm wondering if I see some Leonberger in him too. According to the AKC page....they do come in a sandy color with a black mask. Maybe he's an Anatolian/Leonberger mix?


He could be. I'm about 95% sure there's SOMETHING besides LGD/Giant breed in him, but that's mostly because he actually, actively herds - big time - and has a crazy, crazy ball drive. He's also really high energy, even by standards of living with Kylie. Some of that could be me fostering in it, in the way I interact with him, but I don't think much but a herding breed of some sort would have him herding, you know? That's why I've stuck with GSD, because he's got a lot of tending and herding sort of behavior that has actually been a problem for us at times. Might not be GSD, but something in there herds, big time.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Okay....let's recant that and say Leonberger/pyr mix just so that way we keep the peace. 

Every Leonberger I've met has two gears....neutral and first. I would definitely not consider them a high drive dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> But then she wouldn't currently own a Pyr at all and thus be completely invalidated as experienced?


Yes. The current dog is the only one that counts. So I know terriers and mutts.  

YOU don't have any knowledge at all. Obviously.



MrsBoats said:


> Okay....let's recant that and say Leonberger/pyr mix just so that way we keep the peace.


Ahahaha. <3. I might have more without it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yes. The current dog is the only one that counts. So I know terriers and mutts.
> 
> *YOU don't have any knowledge at all. Obviously.*
> 
> ...


Which is kind of ironic because I've only owned cats for a couple years now vs having a dog in the house all my life and working with shelter dogs for over a year now.

But yes, obviously I'm currently only knowledgeable about cats.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

MrsBoats said:


> That's probably because you totally shut her down in the Corrections thread and told her to beat it. LOL
> 
> I just pass over her posts because like I said, the style of writing is so hard for me to wrap my head around. But if something blows up...I'll go back and skim the craziness. I did have someone on ignore for a while...but I couldn't stop hitting show posts just so I could see what sort of insane stuff fell out of their head. As irritated as they made me...I just had to see. So, I took them off of ingore. Now I just start deep, relaxing breathing when I see something that gets my hackles up. Ommmmmm..... LOL


LOL...probably. I didn't want that thread getting derailed like this one. 

I think what gets me is that she seems to go looking for a fight in every comment someone makes toward her and, whether it's there or not, she finds something and then responds with some real nastiness. I have to wonder what makes someone so defensive...it's like fear aggression in dogs where they see everything around them as a threat, so they actually create conflict with other dogs by jumping to their own defense when it isn't needed.

I'm betting it's hard to live that way.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Which is kind of ironic because I've only owned cats for a couple years now vs having a dog in the house all my life and working with shelter dogs for over a year now.
> 
> But yes, obviously I'm currently only knowledgeable about cats.


A little over a year ago and a few years before that, I would have only known cats! In spite of having had dogs for much longer. 

I needed a break.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I think you should just call Thud a Wannabee from now on. NEW BREED.

I understand that people have language differences. But when a language barrier creates a misunderstanding, then multiple people very thoroughly explain the source of the misunderstanding and what they had actually meant multiple times, it crosses over into annoyingly willful ignorance for me.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> He could be. I'm about 95% sure there's SOMETHING besides LGD/Giant breed in him, but that's mostly because he actually, actively herds - big time - and has a crazy, crazy ball drive. He's also really high energy, even by standards of living with Kylie. Some of that could be me fostering in it, in the way I interact with him, but I don't think much but a herding breed of some sort would have him herding, you know? That's why I've stuck with GSD, because he's got a lot of tending and herding sort of behavior that has actually been a problem for us at times. Might not be GSD, but something in there herds, big time.


I could be totally off base here, but I could kind of see Malinois/Pyr as a possibility. It would explain the coloring and herding at any rate.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I could be totally off base here, but I could kind of see Malinois/Pyr as a possibility. It would explain the coloring and herding at any rate.


Yikes...wouldn't that be in the category of mixes that just should not happen?  If it's the case, CptJack, I salute you!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> Yikes...wouldn't that be in the category of mixes that just should not happen?  If it's the case, CptJack, I salute you!


I'd put it there! 

We'll probably never know between 'some kind of large guardian breed and something that herds and is insane', but whatever those two specifics are - Thud's proving to be a heck of a ride. Mostly a fun one! But. Yeah.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I'd put it there!
> 
> We'll probably never know between 'some kind of large guardian breed and something that herds and is insane', but whatever those two specifics are - Thud's proving to be a heck of a ride. Mostly a fun one! But. Yeah.


My vote is that Thud is a unique breed all his own. He just is a Thud. Perhaps we will one day find other Thuds and they will eventually organize themselves into an army of benevolent overlords, but until then, he is uniquely Thud-esque.

Heck...it makes about as much sense as crossing a poodle with almost anything and then claiming that as a breed.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Dang I missed everything. lol

I personally wouldn't be surprised if Thud was all guardian breed. Could be guardian x herder too, but usually I see that happening with the farm BC and pyr having pups. But you see pyr x anatolian quite a bit.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> My vote is that Thud is a unique breed all his own. He just is a Thud. Perhaps we will one day find other Thuds and they will eventually organize themselves into an army of benevolent overlords, but until then, he is uniquely Thud-esque.
> 
> Heck...it makes about as much sense as crossing a poodle with almost anything and then claiming that as a breed.


If we're lucky they'll stay benevolent. Or mostly benevolent. They'd probably be better as a defensive army. Or herding people where they want to go. 

We have, at least, finally reached the point where no one is regularly black and blue.



Laurelin said:


> Dang I missed everything. lol
> 
> I personally wouldn't be surprised if Thud was all guardian breed. Could be guardian x herder too, but usually I see that happening with the farm BC and pyr having pups. But you see pyr x anatolian quite a bit.


Appearance wise, I agree. I really, really do. 

The thing is, Guardian Breeds don't really have drive the same way herders or other dogs do - that is to say the modified prey-drive stuff. They don't tend to chase or fetch, they certainly don't herd. Thud... really, overtly, unmistakably, herds - from the time he was 4 months old and started that nonsense, though it's more under control, now. He will also take off your arm for a ball. The BALL stuff, I might have created, but there's nothing in the world that I am aware of that would make a guardian breed herd. Because chasing the livestock is bad, you know?

Maybe 3/4 guardian and something in there throwing back? Either way: I like the idea of just calling Wannabe his breed and Thud the variety.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Oh, wait, I was bored at work, lol, and did a quick search on Pyr mixes, and found some pictures of Anatolian/Pyr mixes. Look familiar?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

kuma'smom said:


> oh, wait, i was bored at work, lol, and did a quick search on pyr mixes, and found some pictures of anatolian/pyr mixes. Look familiar?


definitely.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Crantastic said:


> The cupcakes here, numbers 32 and 24 especially, are amazing. The Bailey's frosting in number 24 is the best frosting I have ever tasted (and I worked for years as a baker).


Which are the best non-boozy ones? I am thinking of making some for birthdays this month at work...


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

CptJack said:


> If we're lucky they'll stay benevolent. Or mostly benevolent. They'd probably be better as a defensive army. Or herding people where they want to go.
> 
> We have, at least, finally reached the point where no one is regularly black and blue.
> 
> ...


Don't really know much about anatolian temperament to be honest. Have you had him around actual livestock? From hanging around working BC folks, they don't call anything 'herding' unless it's going on with livestock. 

I don't think GSD is a bad guess either though. He is looking more and more LGD as he gets bigger.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

More thuds!

https://www.google.com/search?q=ger...Tu8ASYn4H4Bw&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=618


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Which are the best non-boozy ones? I am thinking of making some for birthdays this month at work...


Even the boozy ones have so little that it's just a taste, so any of them would be safe (for example, number 24 has just 1/4 cup Bailey's in the entire batch of icing). Number 32, the graham/key lime ones, are amazing. I did not like 6, the banana ones. The cupcakes were just banana bread, and the icing just tasted like maple syrup. 4 would be a safe bet; red velvet is very popular right now. 15 sounds awesome but I haven't tried it. 30 isn't bad.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Well all,
been outa the loop but am frantically reading thru this thread... as we ran into a lady accross town and now seem to have an 8 week old mostly Great Pyreenees with a touch of Anatolian, he is scrawny was bottle fed, and has no hair on his tail I think he has mange....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BernerMax said:


> Well all,
> been outa the loop but am frantically reading thru this thread... as we ran into a lady accross town and now seem to have an 8 week old mostly Great Pyreenees with a touch of Anatolian, he is scrawny was bottle fed, and has no hair on his tail I think he has mange....


From what I've heard you say, you'd likely be able to manage that sort of temperament okay. Just be prepared for it, and anatolians tend to be (I'm still reading) much more... serious guardians than pyrs. 

(And Lauralin - Thud has been around livestock. I don't know if horses count, but he's been around them a few times at my mothers - they're housed in a large open space on friend's property that we cut through (with permission) to get to the river. It's a HUGE space, and while we don't normally see the horses, we've been taken off guard twice. Both times his reaction was to chase at them. Once on leash so not an issue and was stopped. The other, they were meant to be penned and had gotten out so he was off lead. He ended up chasing them back into the pen from a fairly respectable difference and with a lot of back and forth behind or beside them. It may not count because they're horses, and it wasn't a BC style crouch and stare, for sure, but he got them somewhere before we could get him. Which is not the sort of behavior I would expect to see in an LGD, though given that he was a puppy still theoretically possible.)


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Oddly enough I've met 3 pyrs in the last 5 years that do heard...supposedly they are pure bred but there's no guarantee (byb'ers) 
anything's possible right? 

They heard alpacas


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Flaming said:


> Oddly enough I've met 3 pyrs in the last 5 years that do heard...supposedly they are pure bred but there's no guarantee (byb'ers)
> anything's possible right?
> 
> They heard alpacas



That actually makes me nervous. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Herding is modified predatory/chase behavior. I'd be scared to DEATH of a LGD that wanted to chase my livestock, even to herd them. NOt saying I disbelieve you, I totally don't, but omfg. (I'm sure this is partially a training thing too, though.)


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> That actually makes me nervous. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Herding is modified predatory/chase behavior. I'd be scared to DEATH of a LGD that wanted to chase my livestock, even to herd them. NOt saying I disbelieve you, I totally don't, but omfg. (I'm sure this is partially a training thing too, though.)


Knowing the people I don't think they trained it. They more of a lets get the dogs and stick them out there, though the first pry might have had some herding mix and trained the younger pyrs? 
When they do it, they look like they're trying to be gentle though, no nipping or anything and they keep a safe distance, almost like what you described with Thud and the horses. 
The owners are happy with it now because when they want to change pasture they just open the gates and let the dogs do the work. The pyrs only herd when there's a gate open. 
(that part is trained because they didn't want the alpacas run though the ground. Before training the pups just herded the alpacas in circles )


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Flaming said:


> Knowing the people I don't think they trained it. They more of a lets get the dogs and stick them out there, though the first pry might have had some herding mix and trained the younger pyrs?
> When they do it, they look like they're trying to be gentle though, no nipping or anything and they keep a safe distance, almost like what you described with Thud and the horses.
> The owners are happy with it now because when they want to change pasture they just open the gates and let the dogs do the work. The pyrs only herd when there's a gate open.
> (that part is trained because they didn't want the alpacas run though the ground. Before training the pups just herded the alpacas in circles )


I meant that it wasn't trained out of puppies/they weren't raised with livestock, but I was thinking more general chasing behavior. It is ENTIRELY possible that they picked up that the gates being opened means that the alpacas are going 'over there' and are kind of loosely moving the flock over there. In general though, LGDs are like... so anti-chase that you throw a ball and they stare at you, you know? Prey-drive isn't a big thing. The connection to 'my flock/family is going to move so let's go' and kind of getting them that way's obviously still herding but makes some sense to me. 

Thud... flat out tends. He's not making a connection with the animals, but he's also really not calm or gentle about it. Of course, he's a puppy, but he's very much tug-fetch-chase oriented, with prey-drive layered on top just to keep life interesting (stray cats are becoming the bane of my existence. Fine at home, but outside? They run. He wants to kill them. Yeehaw). A lot of LGDs I'd drop in a flock of chickens and not worry. Thud wants to eat stray cats. He could still be all LGD, and I've certainly seen ones that don't work out rehomed for killing and harrying livestock, but my god he'd be a bad one. Something would die. ...Possibly him, actually.

And in fairness, it isn't as though I probably haven't built drive in him, and I suspect Kylie's done the same.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I meant that it wasn't trained out of puppies/they weren't raised with livestock, but I was thinking more general chasing behavior. It is ENTIRELY possible that they picked up that the gates being opened means that the alpacas are going 'over there' and are kind of loosely moving the flock over there. In general though, LGDs are like... so anti-chase that you throw a ball and they stare at you, you know? Prey-drive isn't a big thing. The connection to 'my flock/family is going to move so let's go' and kind of getting them that way's obviously still herding but makes some sense to me.
> 
> Thud... flat out tends. He's not making a connection with the animals, but he's also really not calm or gentle about it. Of course, he's a puppy, but he's very much tug-fetch-chase oriented, with prey-drive layered on top just to keep life interesting (stray cats are becoming the bane of my existence. Fine at home, but outside? They run. He wants to kill them. Yeehaw). A lot of LGDs I'd drop in a flock of chickens and not worry. Thud wants to eat stray cats. He could still be all LGD, and I've certainly seen ones that don't work out rehomed for killing and harrying livestock, but my god he'd be a bad one. Something would die. ...Possibly him, actually.
> 
> And in fairness, it isn't as though I probably haven't built drive in him, and I suspect Kylie's done the same.


ouch, ok yeah that's a bit worrisome if you have livestock.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

CptJack said:


> From what I've heard you say, you'd likely be able to manage that sort of temperament okay. Just be prepared for it, and anatolians tend to be (I'm still reading) much more... serious guardians than pyrs.


Aww thanks, CptJack, I really was researching Pyernean Mastiffs but then this pup came along... His dad is kinda small (90 lbs) and looks more like my neighbors Akbash cross...actually so I am wondering about that....


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

To my understanding, Pyrenean mastiffs are more docile than great Pyrenees. Anyone has experience with them?


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Aww thanks, CptJack, I really was researching Pyernean Mastiffs but then this pup came along... His dad is kinda small (90 lbs) and looks more like my neighbors Akbash cross...actually so I am wondering about that....


You have a giant schnauzer and a BMD, right? I'm betting you could handle a Pyr.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I meant that it wasn't trained out of puppies/they weren't raised with livestock, but I was thinking more general chasing behavior. It is ENTIRELY possible that they picked up that the gates being opened means that the alpacas are going 'over there' and are kind of loosely moving the flock over there. In general though, LGDs are like... so anti-chase that you throw a ball and they stare at you, you know? Prey-drive isn't a big thing. The connection to 'my flock/family is going to move so let's go' and kind of getting them that way's obviously still herding but makes some sense to me.
> 
> Thud... flat out tends. He's not making a connection with the animals, but he's also really not calm or gentle about it. Of course, he's a puppy, but he's very much tug-fetch-chase oriented, with prey-drive layered on top just to keep life interesting (stray cats are becoming the bane of my existence. Fine at home, but outside? They run. He wants to kill them. Yeehaw). A lot of LGDs I'd drop in a flock of chickens and not worry. Thud wants to eat stray cats. He could still be all LGD, and I've certainly seen ones that don't work out rehomed for killing and harrying livestock, but my god he'd be a bad one. Something would die. ...Possibly him, actually.
> 
> And in fairness, it isn't as though I probably haven't built drive in him, and I suspect Kylie's done the same.


I'm thinking we already know that Sam isn't a good comparison here, with completely different breeds likely involved in him and Thud, but still.

Sam has only certain kinds of prey drive that I've seen so far. He could care less about chasing squirrels, birds, or cats. He LOVES to play tug, but won't chase a ball, just sitting there and staring at you after you have thrown it. He loves chasing a fuzzy lure though or running in circles with you trying to catch him. He doesn't really do what I consider traditional herding behaviors, like circling and trying to drive with nips or barks.

Of course, I don't have a dog here that is modeling those behaviors for him and I haven't encouraged anything except trying to get him to play with a ball a couple times, giving up, and grabbing a tug instead. So...it's hard to tell what in Thud might be genetics at play and what could be the evil influence of you and Kylie.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Flaming said:


> Knowing the people I don't think they trained it. They more of a lets get the dogs and stick them out there, though the first pry might have had some herding mix and trained the younger pyrs?
> When they do it, they look like they're trying to be gentle though, no nipping or anything and they keep a safe distance, almost like what you described with Thud and the horses.
> The owners are happy with it now because when they want to change pasture they just open the gates and let the dogs do the work. The pyrs only herd when there's a gate open.
> (that part is trained because they didn't want the alpacas run though the ground. Before training the pups just herded the alpacas in circles )


There are A LOT of Pyr/BC mixes around here. Some of them don't look like they have any BC in them at all... wouldn't be surprised if a BYB was selling the offspring of a BC/Pyr as a pure Pyr at all.

Also, lol, alpacas.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

packetsmom said:


> I'm thinking we already know that Sam isn't a good comparison here, with completely different breeds likely involved in him and Thud, but still.
> 
> Sam has only certain kinds of prey drive that I've seen so far. He could care less about chasing squirrels, birds, or cats. He LOVES to play tug, but won't chase a ball, just sitting there and staring at you after you have thrown it. He loves chasing a fuzzy lure though or running in circles with you trying to catch him. He doesn't really do what I consider traditional herding behaviors, like circling and trying to drive with nips or barks.
> 
> Of course, I don't have a dog here that is modeling those behaviors for him and I haven't encouraged anything except trying to get him to play with a ball a couple times, giving up, and grabbing a tug instead. So...it's hard to tell what in Thud might be genetics at play and what could be the evil influence of you and Kylie.



I Just... I know dogs are different and I've certainly seen a lot of pyrs go through rescue for NOT being good with livestock, so obviously prey-drive happens but honestly? I've never seen one express the SLIGHTEST bit of interest in games like fetch, because they're so prey based. Tug, sometimes, because they can figure that out and it's fun, or maybe going to investigate a ball that's thrown, but really hard and heavy games? Not so much. 

Thud does this, for HOURS: 




























I've NO doubt that some of it's Kylie's influence (and mine), but 2+ hours of water retrieving for a pure LGD would knock my socks off - both energy level and the drive to do it, you know?

There's also this: 









Which is not the kind of cornering/movement I associate with MOST LGD, though apparently Anatolians are pretty danged good movers.

Doesn't mean he's not all one, or anything else, but he's kinda... Something. 

Besides awesome and making me proud.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> There are A LOT of Pyr/BC mixes around here. Some of them don't look like they have any BC in them at all... wouldn't be surprised if a BYB was selling the offspring of a BC/Pyr as a pure Pyr at all.
> 
> Also, lol, alpacas.


It's a REALLY common mix on farms. Not really a planned one, just... something that happens. I have to admit, some of the ones I've seen have a lot of variety - but they've all been really gorgeous dogs.


----------



## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

All I can think is that hueyeats got alpha-rolled out of this thread.

(Is she permabanned? I really want to see her reaction to Roman a year or two down the road.)

But more slightly on topic: Thud is majestic.

And lots of pyr mixes around here. People literally put ads in the paper to give them away for free. Hopefully they all go to good homes or the milder breed in the mix wins out.


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

CrimsonAccent said:


> All I can think is that hueyeats got alpha-rolled out of this thread.
> 
> (Is she permabanned? I really want to see her reaction to Roman a year or two down the road.)
> 
> ...


On page 18ish it says she is just temp-banned.

Oh another topic, is it weird that I have 0 experience with pyrs and pyr mixes? They just aren't that common around here.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> I'm thinking we already know that Sam isn't a good comparison here, with completely different breeds likely involved in him and Thud, but still.
> 
> Sam has only certain kinds of prey drive that I've seen so far. He could care less about chasing squirrels, birds, or cats. He LOVES to play tug, but won't chase a ball, just sitting there and staring at you after you have thrown it. He loves chasing a fuzzy lure though or running in circles with you trying to catch him. He doesn't really do what I consider traditional herding behaviors, like circling and trying to drive with nips or barks.
> 
> Of course, I don't have a dog here that is modeling those behaviors for him and I haven't encouraged anything except trying to get him to play with a ball a couple times, giving up, and grabbing a tug instead. So...it's hard to tell what in Thud might be genetics at play and what could be the evil influence of you and Kylie.


That's kind of like Josefina, our younger rescue. She has prey drive by not herding instinct, she'll chase, oh yeah but as soon as they stop she is like "ok not fun anymore " lol so I guess when it comes to herding she is an epic fail


----------



## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

KodiBarracuda said:


> On page 18ish it says she is just temp-banned.
> 
> Oh another topic, is it weird that I have 0 experience with pyrs and pyr mixes? They just aren't that common around here.


No worries, I wouldn't have my extremely limited knowledge if my in laws didn't own a cattle farm next to an alpaca farm.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Which are the best non-boozy ones? I am thinking of making some for birthdays this month at work...


This is one of my favourite cupcakes. Its gorgeous and delicious. I switch out the chocolate frosting though for vanilla or cream cheese or white chocolate. You can also use the same technique with raspberries and blackberries (and maybe strawberries?)
http://www.howsweeteats.com/2011/08/roasted-blueberry-cupcakes-with-chocolate-fudge-frosting/


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

CptJack said:


> It's a REALLY common mix on farms. Not really a planned one, just... something that happens. I have to admit, some of the ones I've seen have a lot of variety - but they've all been really gorgeous dogs.


I have definitely seen ads for BC/Pyr mixes as planned litters in the paper here (they stated the dogs hadn't been bred yet). Because they are "awesome farm dogs" because they guard and are good with livestock but aren't as intense as purebred herders. Maybe its true, maybe it is not, I don't know. Quite a few end up in our shelter.


----------



## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

packetsmom said:


> You have a giant schnauzer and a BMD, right? I'm betting you could handle a Pyr.


Thanks, I got a number at the Feedstore (there aint a whole lotta resources up here) for puppy class and we will take it from there-- he looked pretty skinny to me and I was reckoning he was about 9 lbs (about what the BMD was at his age he was also on the small side) and we weighed him.... he is 16.5 lbs... 9 weeks tommorrow.....


----------



## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

BernerMax said:


> Thanks, I got a number at the Feedstore (there aint a whole lotta resources up here) for puppy class and we will take it from there-- he looked pretty skinny to me and I was reckoning he was about 9 lbs (about what the BMD was at his age he was also on the small side) and we weighed him.... he is 16.5 lbs... 9 weeks tommorrow.....


. He's a lucky boy now!


----------



## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

KodiBarracuda said:


> On page 18ish it says she is just temp-banned.
> .


Now it just says "banned" I guess that's not temp anymore? lol

And how the heck did I lose track of a thread with the delicious yumminess of boozy cupcakes in it? :doh:


----------



## KodiBarracuda (Jul 4, 2011)

MyCharlie said:


> Now it just says "banned" I guess that's not temp anymore? lol
> 
> And how the heck did I lose track of a thread with the delicious yumminess of boozy cupcakes in it? :doh:


Profiles don't distinguish between temp and permanent bans. I referenced page 18 because of this:



Kuma'sMom said:


> Hueyeats, you were warned in the other thread to lay off the rude and disrespectful talk towards other posters. Clearly, you have chosen to disregard my warning, so I hope you enjoy your time out. Hopefully, when you return you'll be better able to disagree with the posters here WITHOUT insulting them.


I assume that 'when you return' means its only a temp ban.


----------



## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

KodiBarracuda said:


> Profiles don't distinguish between temp and permanent bans. I referenced page 18 because of this:
> 
> I assume that 'when you return' means its only a temp ban.


Ooooooh... good to know! Thanks!


----------



## Faux (Aug 5, 2013)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Bet there is an entire subset, I have run into them...... That believe you should just ignore what you do not like... No interupt, redirect, etc...
> 
> And for your example... ACDs wrote the book on manipulation. Feed an ACD from the table, he will not come back begging at the next meal. He will jump on the table and help himself to whatever the heck he wants.... Don't you know it is his table anyway?


This! I was about to say, don't teach an ACD something you don't intend for them to use outside of training sessions. They're crafty.

English Shepherds: Get ready to have a new shadow. These dogs can be worse than your mother. They constantly have to check in with you, if you move they move. Pretty typical of a herding breed in general.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Faux said:


> This! I was about to say, don't teach an ACD something you don't intend for them to use outside of training sessions. They're crafty.
> 
> English Shepherds: Get ready to have a new shadow. These dogs can be worse than your mother. They constantly have to check in with you, if you move they move. Pretty typical of a herding breed in general.


THIS. (Too short)


----------



## Raggedw00ds (Jul 15, 2013)

Aussies~Stuck to your side FOREVER. SERIOUSLY ( I love this though!) . SMART. 

Huskies~Can be LOUD. Especially when you have a headache, or just woke up..they don't care, they want to talk! WILL ESCAPE IF THEY CAN. AND THEY CAN. They will always find a way...sometimes you wont even have any idea how they did! HAIR...EVERYWHERE. NO. SERIOUSLY. YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND. HAIR.


----------



## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

OK, I had disappeared for a few weeks and this thread started during that time. When I came back there were already so many pages I didn't get into this because I was too lazy to read through everything first.
Well, I caught the last few posts from this week, interest got piqued, and decided to go back and read a bit.....WOW! I sure did miss some good stuff here! LOL 
I guess that's what I get for stepping away for a bit. 

Will someone, anyone, please IM me the next time I miss the party boat and give me a heads up. haha


----------



## Schnauzerkid (Feb 10, 2013)

Schnauzers~Smart and crazy


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

reynosa_k9's said:


> OK, I had disappeared for a few weeks and this thread started during that time. When I came back there were already so many pages I didn't get into this because I was too lazy to read through everything first.
> Well, I caught the last few posts from this week, interest got piqued, and decided to go back and read a bit.....WOW! I sure did miss some good stuff here! LOL
> I guess that's what I get for stepping away for a bit.
> 
> Will someone, anyone, please IM me the next time I miss the party boat and give me a heads up. haha


Sure. 

I think threads longer than 3 pages should have cliff notes. When I went to bed last night the service dog thread was only on page one; this morning there were 8 pages. Looks like I know how I'm spending my evening.


----------



## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

cookieface said:


> Sure.
> 
> I think threads longer than 3 pages should have cliff notes. When I went to bed last night the service dog thread was only on page one; this morning there were 8 pages. Looks like I know how I'm spending my evening.


lol yes! And then I get into the inner debate of.... do I want to read through all that? I'm sure everyone has covered all the bases and I won't have much to add.... but I'm sure it's interesting (or entertaining) being that many pages.... Hmmmm


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Sure.
> 
> I think threads longer than 3 pages should have cliff notes. When I went to bed last night the service dog thread was only on page one; this morning there were 8 pages. Looks like I know how I'm spending my evening.


Same here! I don't come on here for a day, it was at page 3 I think & now it's up to 11 pages!


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

CrimsonAccent said:


> All I can think is that hueyeats got alpha-rolled out of this thread.
> 
> (Is she permabanned? I really want to see her reaction to Roman a year or two down the road.)
> 
> ...


Hmmm... I am surprised this thread is still alive... thanks to people still mentioning me.
See I really do get all the viewership, ratings.

As for Roman, he is doing awesome.
As loved as before, I am still as alpha to him as before, I can "elfie" roll him at will and he'd just play dead and let me pet the heck outta him... 
Still.... No prey drive whatsoever.

In fact, his relationship with Pepper has improved a notch I would say...
He licks Pepper's wound when she layed quiet a few nights ago and Pepper (cat) just layed there loving it.
Still a great dog, thanks to me of course (no one else!).


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Two types of dog owners; my conclusion...

One who brag how great their dog are at guarding / even biting & scaring away other dogs & people...

The other, brag how great their dog are at loving people & dogs... all bark no bite.
(This motto I believe in)

So shall I share a story out with Roman hiking and free roaming and another dog owner approaching and wanting me to give my breeder infomation so she can acquire a purebred Pyr to own... AKA as to my warning to my breed...

So Roman and her pincher/coonhound mix met around the trail corner both head on...
Her mix dog growled at Roman... where Roman just backed away, kinda wandered back up to us his family and stayed close to us.

The dog owner caught up to call off her dog to be at ease and the dog still growled a bit and began to wander further into the woods.

Lets just say she was very impressed with Roman's size and how he was off the leash and still stayed right with us his family... type of dog she loves (free roaming stayed close). Because she said her coonhound side of her dog makes it have a great roaming capacity so that's why her dog is wandering off a little distance as she speaks.

She knew what dog Roman is and said she always wanted a big dog like a Pyr.

Then she suggested to me to use a "pinch / prong collar" for training (her advise if I want to better train Roman)... 
Now realize that Roman has one of the most "roaming capability" than even a hunting dog, these are mountain dogs and the kicker is Roman is still staying in close quarter with us as we chat while her dog was wandering off to a distance now...:flypig:

Then she carried unto how great her mix dog is at guarding... the Pincher qualities (I know as I had a Dobie/GSD mix), Pincher are great guard dogs, German breeds you know...

Then how her smaller dog (half the size of Roman) almost bit and really hurt another dog.:doh:
Wow!!!

Then she asked me where I got Roman from...
I told her, its far... it will be a drive and that didn't deter her.
She insisted that since Roman 
(as he shows to be such a great tempered dog and well trained at that... yes off leash plus on a REGUALR flat collar; oh excuse me NOOOOO control collars):clap2:
Is so good that she had to really get in touch with my breeder so she could acquire another Pyr with his bloodlines (and temperament) just like him.

I finally asked her to give me her contact so (and I bluffed) I can give her my breeder's contact when I find it (said its on a paper and not on my phone; lies I'd admit).
But damn I felt great lying for once... to her.:rockon:
Honestly too.

See... 
I'd be stupid to be cornered into giving my breeder's number to her because...

#1) She use a control collar on her dog, Pyrs are stubborn and that can more than likely "make" a breed to be ill tempered and bad... seriously, no joke for a big sized dog capable of being same size as humans = liability.

#2) She brags her dog BITE... and is a ferocious GUARD DOG...
OMG. More liabilities....
Can you imagine how badly it would end for my breeder should she return the dog that "SHE" destroyed via temperament conditioning her way from PAIN (prong collar) and then blame my breeder for breeding a bad tempered dog????

Of course we know how humans are...
They will blame the dog rather than themselve.

= bad business for my breeder.

So...

Wise man says...
2 kinds of owners too...
Responsible kinds and irresponsible kinds.

*NO PYR for HER!!!:rockon:
Sorry!*


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

P.S. My mom is coming to the USA...
I will be sharing new pictures of my AWESOME free roaming Roman with her plus us going on our weekly trail /hikes.
Roman will love it of course!

Love my good dog!
But no one else shall have him because reading and encountering so many "ifs"... no one should really own one. <- warning about the breed.


----------



## NyxForge (May 5, 2013)

hueyeats said:


> *Hmmm... I am surprised this thread is still alive...* thanks to people still mentioning me.
> See I really do get all the viewership, ratings.
> 
> As for Roman, he is doing awesome.
> ...


It wasn't really still alive. The last person to comment before you was in the beginning of August.


----------



## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

NyxForge said:


> It wasn't really still alive. The last person to comment before you was in the beginning of August.


 I too was going to mention this


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

You actually mean it was dead when I was gone???
What does that say or mean I wonder???
Wow and hmmmm...
Interesting I will admit and admit I shall.


----------



## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Pleaaaaase make it stop. 

Just make it stop. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BubbaMoose said:


> Pleaaaaase make it stop.
> 
> Just make it stop.
> 
> ...


I would give actual money for that to happen, at this point. Ignore user is a beautiful, beautiful things, but sometimes, man. Sometimes.


----------



## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

BubbaMoose said:


> Pleaaaaase make it stop.
> 
> Just make it stop.
> 
> ...


NEVVVEEER!

Should I apologize for tempting huey back* and causing a thread necro? 

*I assume at least, as the quoted party.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

CrimsonAccent said:


> Should I apologize for tempting huey back* and causing a thread necro?


Yes, yes you should.

You should apologize with boozy cupcakes.


----------



## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Yes, yes you should.
> 
> You should apologize with boozy cupcakes.


yes but it must be good boozy cupcakes...with chocolate!


----------



## reynosa_k9's (Dec 14, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Yes, yes you should.
> 
> You should apologize with boozy cupcakes.


Did I hear "boozy cupcakes"? Please pass me about a dozen.


----------



## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

CptJack said:


> Yes, yes you should.
> 
> You should apologize with boozy cupcakes.





Flaming said:


> yes but it must be good boozy cupcakes...with chocolate!


Your terms are harsh. :yield:

Someone willing to get me the alcohol...?

...who am I kidding, I'm a broke college kid but I can just visit a frat :laugh:


----------



## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

reynosa_k9's said:


> Did I hear "boozy cupcakes"? Please pass me about a dozen.


 ME too 

too short


----------



## bowie (Apr 26, 2010)

who summoned she-who-must-not-be-named?


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I made chocolate whiskey cupcakes this past weekend. I think I prefer Bailey's cupcakes or Amaretto, personally, but I'm more about the sweet. The chocolate whiskey wasn't as sugary.


----------



## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Managed to make some pretty yummy ones with london dock, last weekend. Red velvet though not chocolate.


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

Flaming said:


> Managed to make some pretty yummy ones with london dock, last weekend. Red velvet though not chocolate.


I need these like right now. 

I'm trying to train Bae to bake cupcakes but alas... I'm not the alpha dog so I'm the only one manning the oven tonight.


----------



## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> I need these like right now.
> 
> I'm trying to train Bae to bake cupcakes but alas... I'm not the alpha dog so I'm the only one manning the oven tonight.


 How could you not be the alpha? show her who's boss and tell her to make you cupcakes


----------



## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

kcomstoc said:


> How could you not be the alpha? show her who's boss and tell her to make you cupcakes


LOL! I wish I could be his alpha. Bae can't be tamed!

Maybe if I could channel his distructive, anxiety related behaviors into baking, I'd be all set!


----------



## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

RabbleFox said:


> LOL! I wish I could be his alpha. Bae can't be tamed!
> 
> Maybe if I could channel his distructive, anxiety related behaviors into baking, I'd be all set!


 He just needs a creative outlet....maybe baking could be IT  then you'd be all set...train Bae to make cupcakes and the destructiveness could go away and you can be alpha.

ETA: the cupcakes might be hairy though >.>


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm never going to be alpha  I live with cats.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

CptJack said:


> I'm never going to be alpha  I live with cats.


 Especially since you got the kitten...It'll be years until you get a chance to become alpha...unless you keep getting cats lol


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

kcomstoc said:


> Especially since you got the kitten...It'll be years until you get a chance to become alpha...unless you keep getting cats lol


I'm pretty sure the older cat pair ARE the alphas, honestly. They certainly call *all* the shots in the house. Silly little prima donnas.


----------



## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

CrimsonAccent said:


> NEVVVEEER!
> 
> Should I apologize for tempting huey back* and causing a thread necro?
> 
> *I assume at least, as the quoted party.


Nope. I forgive you. Free peaches after all.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I'm never going to be alpha  I live with cats.


My status in the household definitely dropped a few notches after Diva Mako came along lol

did you say FREE PEECH?


----------



## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Hopefully I'm not the only one that gets that reference....


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Kayota said:


> My status in the household definitely dropped a few notches after Diva Mako came along lol
> 
> did you say FREE PEECH?


Hahahaha. I just may have. 








I find the google search that I made to get that picture really mildly amusing, so I'm just gonna share it. 

"Lots of peaches."


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


----------



## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

BubbaMoose said:


> Hopefully I'm not the only one that gets that reference....
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


 I get it but only because cookieface helped me lol  oh yea Kayota bunnies def call ALL the shots...just ask Caleb. I'm not alpha either

ETA: I also google searched that and there was a cop car and a salad in the images...pretty sure there weren't peaches in the salad either


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

y'all i made some AWESOME funfetti cupcakes a few days ago. betty crocker helped, but omgggg cupcake goodness.


----------



## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Hmmm...
I came back following the rules of not going off track with the subject of...
"If you could give one warning abt your breed"...

Read here:

"Two types of dog owners; my conclusion...

One who brag how great their dog are at guarding / even biting & scaring away other dogs & people...

The other, brag how great their dog are at loving people & dogs... all bark no bite.
(This motto I believe in)

So shall I share a story out with Roman hiking and free roaming and another dog owner approaching and wanting me to give my breeder infomation so she can acquire a purebred Pyr to own... AKA as to my warning to my breed...

So Roman and her pincher/coonhound mix met around the trail corner both head on...
Her mix dog growled at Roman... where Roman just backed away, kinda wandered back up to us his family and stayed close to us.

The dog owner caught up to call off her dog to be at ease and the dog still growled a bit and began to wander further into the woods.

Lets just say she was very impressed with Roman's size and how he was off the leash and still stayed right with us his family... type of dog she loves (free roaming stayed close). Because she said her coonhound side of her dog makes it have a great roaming capacity so that's why her dog is wandering off a little distance as she speaks.

She knew what dog Roman is and said she always wanted a big dog like a Pyr.

Then she suggested to me to use a "pinch / prong collar" for training (her advise if I want to better train Roman)... 
Now realize that Roman has one of the most "roaming capability" than even a hunting dog, these are mountain dogs and the kicker is Roman is still staying in close quarter with us as we chat while her dog was wandering off to a distance now...

Then she carried unto how great her mix dog is at guarding... the Pincher qualities (I know as I had a Dobie/GSD mix), Pincher are great guard dogs, German breeds you know...

Then how her smaller dog (half the size of Roman) almost bit and really hurt another dog.
Wow!!!

Then she asked me where I got Roman from...
I told her, its far... it will be a drive and that didn't deter her.
She insisted that since Roman 
(as he shows to be such a great tempered dog and well trained at that... yes off leash plus on a REGUALR flat collar; oh excuse me NOOOOO control collars)
Is so good that she had to really get in touch with my breeder so she could acquire another Pyr with his bloodlines (and temperament) just like him.

I finally asked her to give me her contact so (and I bluffed) I can give her my breeder's contact when I find it (said its on a paper and not on my phone; lies I'd admit).
But damn I felt great lying for once... to her.
Honestly too.

See... 
I'd be stupid to be cornered into giving my breeder's number to her because...

#1) She use a control collar on her dog, Pyrs are stubborn and that can more than likely "make" a breed to be ill tempered and bad... seriously, no joke for a big sized dog capable of being same size as humans = liability.

#2) She brags her dog BITE... and is a ferocious GUARD DOG...
OMG. More liabilities....
Can you imagine how badly it would end for my breeder should she return the dog that "SHE" destroyed via temperament conditioning her way from PAIN (prong collar) and then blame my breeder for breeding a bad tempered dog????

Of course we know how humans are...
They will blame the dog rather than themselve.

= bad business for my breeder.

So...

Wise man says...
2 kinds of owners too...
Responsible kinds and irresponsible kinds.

*NO PYR for HER!!!
Sorry*!"


----
And what do I see???

Prime examples of cupcakes!
And what has cupcakes, peaches, cookies etc. gotta do with that one warning about your breed???

This is a great discussion about your warnings of your dog breed.
Cookie and peaches I will admit are pretty cute names for dogs.


----------



## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

reynosa_k9's said:


> Did I hear "boozy cupcakes"? Please pass me about a dozen.


Can I bring a bottle of wine? We have a subscription to a local winery here and we just got our monthly shipment in ... It is very good . Oh ... I could also bring cheese ... Cause you certain members could have "cheese" with their wine.

(Bad joke, I know ... Lol)


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)




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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

RabbleFox said:


> I need these like right now.
> 
> I'm trying to train Bae to bake cupcakes but alas... I'm not the alpha dog so I'm the only one manning the oven tonight.



Wait, you're a BAKER and you're not the alpha?

SMH you have the #1 tool of gaining the heart and mind of your dog. PASTRIES!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

After we I eat all these boozed pastries and drink all this wine, I don't think we are going to care who is alpha xD


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> After we I eat all these boozed pastries and drink all this wine, I don't think we are going to care who is alpha xD


 lol good point  bring it on


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Can I bring a bottle of wine? We have a subscription to a local winery here and we just got our monthly shipment in ... It is very good . Oh ... I could also bring cheese ... Cause you certain members could have "cheese" with their wine.
> 
> (Bad joke, I know ... Lol)



Oh yes. I don't like pastries but I am a total fan of great wine and cheese, or even bad wine cheese, I'm just a fan of wine and cheese!!


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

sclevenger said:


> Oh yes. I don't like pastries but I am a total fan of great wine and cheese, or even bad wine cheese, I'm just a fan of wine and cheese!!


LOL I figured I would bring some fruit also so those who aren't pastry ppl could have more options ... Ain't nothing worse then drinking on an empty stomach :/ lol


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Rescued said:


> y'all i made some AWESOME funfetti cupcakes a few days ago. betty crocker helped, but omgggg cupcake goodness.


There's something pretty magical about Funfetti, I think. I can bake practically anything from scratch, but every year when I ask my best friend what she wants, it's always Funfetti. At least my husband likes the salted caramel chocolate chip cookies I make (they're my favorite)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> After we I eat all these boozed pastries and drink all this wine, I don't think we are going to care who is alpha xD


That's true XD

The booze can be for all I care. "What, the bottle of wine is dominating me to drink it up? Yes, of course, I'll even lay on my back and drink you, alpha bottle of wine." Oh and the pastry demands that I bite it. I'll submit.


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## asuna (Sep 26, 2013)

Husky /Lab mix. HIGHLY energetic , almost add like, and STUBBORN to all heck! good thing im italian/french and stubborn too


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

hueyeats said:


> And what do I see???
> 
> Prime examples of cupcakes!
> And what has cupcakes, peaches, cookies etc. gotta do with that one warning about your breed???


Don't get so upset, we're just speaking our own DogForums language


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Kayota said:


> Don't get so upset, we're just speaking our own DogForums language


Who is upset???
Its YOUR own language anyways, not mine...
And when I am only just neutrally pointing out all the facts of no off track discussions...

the warning of your dog's breed???

Nothing but the truth! Hoh!

1 warning about actually all dog breeds...

Prepare to invest "time", major time for that well loved dogs (of all types).

P.S. Plus... I love this thread alive again because of me. Love it! = fact.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Don't get so upset, we're just speaking our own DogForums language


You know how if a dog is doing something annoying like barking its head off from inside its crate, and you refuse to acknowledge it, the dog will have an "extinction burst" and then learn to stop yapping for attention? That doesn't only work on dogs.


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## BubbaMoose (May 14, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> You know how if a dog is doing something annoying like barking its head off from inside its crate, and you refuse to acknowledge it, the dog will have an "extinction burst" and then learn to stop yapping for attention? That doesn't only work on dogs.


+1. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You know how if a dog is doing something annoying like barking its head off from inside its crate, and you refuse to acknowledge it, the dog will have an "extinction burst" and then learn to stop yapping for attention? That doesn't only work on dogs.


<3 This!

To short.


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## skitty56 (Jan 22, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You know how if a dog is doing something annoying like barking its head off from inside its crate, and you refuse to acknowledge it, the dog will have an "extinction burst" and then learn to stop yapping for attention? That doesn't only work on dogs.


Awesome


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> You know how if a dog is doing something annoying like barking its head off from inside its crate, and you refuse to acknowledge it, the dog will have an "extinction burst" and then learn to stop yapping for attention? That doesn't only work on dogs.


And when would that happen you think???
That extinction burst???

So far I don't see that working at all with 4 more replies after me.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> You know how if a dog is doing something annoying like barking its head off from inside its crate, and you refuse to acknowledge it, the dog will have an "extinction burst" and then learn to stop yapping for attention? That doesn't only work on dogs.


+ All the numbers, and all the love.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

CptJack said:


> + All the numbers, and all the love.


No extinction burst from this thread I guess... only works on dogs it is.

P.S. Love the numbers, love the love thankyou... and I have this thread in my back pocket to pull it up at anytime.

+...

One warning on all dog species... All dogs bark.


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