# You paid $300 for WHAT?



## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

Yesterday, I bought a 10 month old Rottweiler for $300 dollars. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but tell me if you think he's worth the money.

Here's the catch - he's had no shots whatsoever, and no microchip. BUT he is house-trained (from what we were told) and knows how to follow all basic commands (except "Come Here", oddly), and only whines for a very short while when in his cage.

My Cocker Spaniel cost $300, and she'd had all shots, and was very healthy. However, she wasn't house-trained at all and would bark until the cows come home to get out of her cage. She didn't know how to perform any of the basic commands EXCEPT "Come Here".

So, you tell me - which one was a waste of money? Should I have paid $300 for a dog without shots? Should I have paid $300 for a dog without knowledge? I'm not bothered at all by the price, but I'd like to see what you all think is MORE of a waste. 300 bucks isn't a really big deal, but what if the price was 500? 800? 1,000? What would you think?


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Well, I paid $700 each for two dogs without all their shots, no training, and not neutered, and $200 for a dog who was fixed, had all shots, and some training, including housetraining, and both were a good price for what I wanted, so....it depends. Where did you get them from? Who's pocket did your $300 go into?


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

I'd be more worried I got her from a good breeder who is breeding for the love of the breed vs. the money. SEeing as she got no shots, I'd say no (I would expect a good breeder to want her puppies protected as soon as possible despite whether she had a buyer or not. I'd also expect that she would probably alreayd have buyers before she bred the dogs. And that she'd care enough for the dog to expect you to bring hte dog back if you couldn't keep her. Oh, and to grill you on how you planned to care for your dog to make sure the dog was going to a good home).

Sorry, but you asked opinions on if we thought you got a good deal. I just think I'd be more worried about finding the right pet for me without supporting people I think shouldn't be breeding (which is most people seeing as there are plenty of dogs that need homes that are put to sleep cause there are way more dogs than homes). I'm not totally anti-breeding but I do have a high standard on who I'd say I'd support them breeding.

That being said I did get my dog from some one I don't think should be breeding but his was accidental and it did teach him to spay his dog (he decided he just didn't have the time to deal with puppies but he did care for the ones he had, she even had her second set of shots when I got her and while he was considering taking them to a shelter eventually he held on to them for 4.5 months before I got her and was trying not to go that route. I'm pretty sure though at one point he thought it'd be cool to breed his dog cause he had a note on his account, I work at a vet and that's how I met my puppy, saying that he was looking for a male husky to breed his dog to. And I'm pretty sure the money he charged proabbly didn't even recover his costs - he was asking 100 - but more for the help to weed out people he didn't want having his dogs). He was basically the kind of person who thought it would be fun (backyard breeder with good intentions) but at least decided to go the responsible route after realizing what kind of work puppies were.

If I had thought he was trying to make money off of them I'd probably be too turned off to have considered getting one of the puppies.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I wouldn't want a dog without vaccinations just because I wouldn't want to financially reward whoever had the dog previously for not taking care of it.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

*sheltiemom:*
For the cocker spaniel, my money went to a guy who breeds dogs of all kinds, sort of as a family business. He makes sure they're healthy, but I guess he sees training as the owner's job - and I'm not saying it isn't. The Rottweiler was from a family who'd bred before. They could've just been looking for money, but they didn't abandon him and keep him outside in the cold or give him food only once a week. They'd taught him some things and all, so I figured it was okay. I've got no qualms at all about the prices, I just found it ironic that I paid the same price for two totally differently raised dogs.

*tigress:*
I completely understand, but no breeder that's just in it for money is going to flat-out tell you "I just want money". And people's ideas of how to breed is different, I guess. Hell will definitely freeze over when I see someone trying to sell dogs that they did nothing for and I buy one.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

You bought a dog from a puppy mill...


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

QKid said:


> And people's ideas of how to breed is different, I guess.


You guess correctly, and that's part of the problem. People accept any breeding practice without questioning it...only to question it later, when they are wondering about the price.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

RBark said:


> You bought a dog from a puppy mill...


I don't know which one you're referring to, but neither could be classified as a puppy mill. Neither had cramped animals, made the bitches mate every time they were in heat, the places weren't unsanitary, and they weren't neglected and left without food and water. One just wasn't trained, as normal, and one wasn't vaccinated.
*
Curbside Prophet:*
That may be so, but in the end it doesn't matter to me. He went and had his vaccines today, if I was worried about prices for illnesses I wouldn't have gotten a dog.

I personally know where I cross the line, though. If you would've seen the people, you would've expected the dog to not be vaccinated and to be eating table food. But he was alive and well, and I knew I am one of the worst housetrainers in the world, so when I heard he was housetrained I was okay with it. 300 dollars is a good price for the dog I was looking for. It wasn't an unreasonable price for an unvaccinated dog. You can say i made a bad choice and I'm just putting money in bad peoples' wallets or whatever, but they weren't murdering puppies. They just weren't preventing it from getting an illness.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

By the time has the basic shots and is neutered, I would expect to pay around $300 from a shelter and somewhat more from a good rescue.

If I was buying from a good breeder who specialized in 1-2 breeds, offered a health guarantee and a no-questions-asked return policy, I would expect to pay a great deal more.

If I paid $300 from a breeder, I'd figure it was a backyard breeder and I'd be embarrassed that I encouraged him.

Are you sorry you asked yet?


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

RonE said:


> By the time has the basic shots and is neutered, I would expect to pay around $300 from a shelter and somewhat more from a good rescue.
> 
> If I was buying from a good breeder who specialized in 1-2 breeds, offered a health guarantee and a no-questions-asked return policy, I would expect to pay a great deal more.
> 
> ...


Am I supposed to be?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

QKid said:


> Am I supposed to be?


If you're not that's a good thing.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

QKid said:


> Am I supposed to be?


I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how they're supposed to feel. But it's pretty common, on this forum and others, for people to ask for opinions and then get upset when they aren't the opinions they'd hoped for.

It doesn't really matter if anyone thinks your dog was a bargain or a huge mistake. What matters is that you do the very best you can for that dog, and I have no reason to believe that you won't.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

QKid said:


> You can say i made a bad choice and I'm just putting money in bad peoples' wallets or whatever, but they weren't murdering puppies. They just weren't preventing it from getting an illness.


 

And if the dog HAD gotten some sort of disease like parvo...? There'd be no way I'd have given someone money who didn't even perform that most basic care for their animals. Neither breeders sound like anyone I could endorse with a good conscience.

You can get a dog with full shots, spayed and neutered from the shelter here for $95, RonE. We have a ton of puppies usually, and even quite a few purebreds. Not saying that's where everyone needs to get a dog but it's a great deal if you're looking for a good pet.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

RonE said:


> I wouldn't presume to tell anyone how they're supposed to feel. But it's pretty common, on this forum and others, for people to ask for opinions and then get upset when they aren't the opinions they'd hoped for.
> 
> It doesn't really matter if anyone thinks your dog was a bargain or a huge mistake. What matters is that you do the very best you can for that dog, and I have no reason to believe that you won't.


I was never upset, and I didn't mean to seem like it. It was just that everyone else went "What? Not a professional breeder? Die!" on me and I was trying to justify that I'm not applauding those actions, I even suggested that they get the dogs vaccinated if they ever breed again, and they gave me some BS excuse about not having the time to do it, so I decided it would be better for the dog if he lived with me.

But I'm glad that you don't plan to hold the fact that I got my dog from irresponsible breeder against me.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

QKid said:


> *tigress:*
> I completely understand, but no breeder that's just in it for money is going to flat-out tell you "I just want money". And people's ideas of how to breed is different, I guess. Hell will definitely freeze over when I see someone trying to sell dogs that they did nothing for and I buy one.


Yes, but you can usually use your brain to figure out if they are most likely going for money vs. just trying to find homes for pets they accidentally bred. Things that clue me off is breeders who don't give shots and cheap out on all vet costs (trying to keep puppies as cheap as possible). WHo try to get rid of puppies as young as possible (longer you have them the more money it takes to care for them). Who buy the cheapest food possible (pedigree or even worse Ol ROy, anyone?). Dump them if they don't sell them quick enough (why spend good money after bad?). Try not to even give the mother dog any vet care. WHo are selling purebred dogs (not saying all, but in general if they are trying to make money they are either selling purebred or tyring to pass off as purebred). And you bought a dog from some one who didn't even care enough to vaccinate them. Sorry, but to me that alone would be a huge red sign, especially if he was trying to sell purebred dogs rather than even claiming that he didn't mean to have puppies and just needed to find them homes.

Just cause they don't admit to you they were tyring to make money doesn't mean you can't get clued in by things you learn by talking to them or seeing what they have done for tehir puppies and the mother.

I had one guy come to my clinic (and thankfully we finally convinced him to come) who had a dachshound in pregnancy who was having difficulties. Just by his attitude you could tell he was worried about how much it was going to cost him and that he had wanted to maek money off of this (the dog had been in labor since the night before and it took him 6 hours after he called the next day for him to bring it in after I took a lot of bring dog in now convincing and letting him bill the charges cause he couldnt' afford it). He was worried about the costs and whether he could still save the puppies so he could use them to at least recover the vet costs (He apparently at least cared enough about his dog to be convinced to at least save her). Turns out both puppies were stillborn and should have been born a week ago (they were rotting in her womb that long but since he refused to do any vet care cause that would cost money and he was trying to make money he hadn't bothered to ever have her checked until the poit she almost died).


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## Mdawn (Mar 3, 2007)

I can see why you would think it was ironic...but its not someone who I would have chosen to give my money to. What have they done for the dog to warrant giving them $300? Feeding the dog? Giving the dog shelter? Oh, come on...

My mom recently adopted a dog from our animal shelter. They wanted a grand total of...(drum roll please)... $32 for this dog...all because this dog had been at the shelter *SO* long that they were desperate to get her *OUT* because she had been placed on "the list" of animals to be PTS. Basically, the shelter just wanted the price of her dog tags. They didn't care about what it cost to feed her all the months she had been at the shelter or the price it cost to house her...or even medications that they have given her...they just wanted her out before she would die. I could go to this shelter or any other similar shelter RIGHT NOW and guarantee that there would be a Rottie in that same circumstance. I would pay $300 for that dog...


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

I am not interested in getting dogs from shelters, I am sorry. Sure, they may be cheap and healthy, but I don't feel like I know enough about where the dog came from. What if it was hurt and I lookd like the person who neglected it? What if it's got emotional distress? Also, I don't know if the shelters train the dogs, and I'm definitely not looking for a dog in the middle of it's life still pooping in the corner. My ignorance of how dogs in shelters really are is why I don't get any from there. Wheras, with all of the people I've gotten dogs from, I've seen the parents, known the breeders or at least people who've bought dogs from the breeder, etc. I don't like shooting in the dark, sorry.


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## Max'sHuman (Oct 6, 2007)

I'm not going to hold anything against you because what's done is done and now what is important is that you take good care of your puppy.

But here's the thing: You can get a dog from a shelter or rescue that is speutered, microchipped and up to date on all the shots for 100.00 around here. 250-300 if you go through a breed specific rescue. Most breed rescues also foster so the dog, if the previous owner did not already do so, will come with some training because the foster family will work with the dog. The kicker is a lot of shelters around here also throw in free or reduced rate basic obedience or even trainer consultations. And if you go that route you aren't supporting some dingbat with dubious breeding practices. 

Just food for thought I guess...

ETA: You won't get a dog from a shelter because you don't know where the dog came from, but you'll get a dog from a BYB who, make know bones about it, is doing wrong by his animals? Weird....


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

QKid said:


> I am not interested in getting dogs from shelters, I am sorry. Sure, they may be cheap and healthy, but I don't feel like I know enough about where the dog came from. What if it was hurt and I lookd like the person who neglected it? What if it's got emotional distress? Also, I don't know if the shelters train the dogs, and I'm definitely not looking for a dog in the middle of it's life still pooping in the corner. My ignorance of how dogs in shelters really are is why I don't get any from there. Wheras, with all of the people I've gotten dogs from, I've seen the parents, known the breeders or at least people who've bought dogs from the breeder, etc. I don't like shooting in the dark, sorry.


So instead you bought a dog from someone who DID neglect it? And you gave them money for it? I just don't understand.

Shelter dogs are not for everyone- none of my current dogs are shelter dogs.

There's a lot of misconceptions, though. We have 5 _litters_ of puppies right now. Like 8 week old little puppies. One litter is 10 pups big. We also have a lot of 6 months - 1 year old purebreds. We get a lot of owner surrenders and actually do know a lot about a dog's past on occasion. You'd certainly know as much as you would from a bad breeder. My dog from a bad breeder was like... here's the puppy, can we have the money? Nothing much else.

There are also breed rescues to go through.

If you want a dog with a known history, there's absolutely _nothing_ wrong with that. However, you will get that from a reputable breeder. Any breeder that doesn't even provide shots is far from reputable in anyone's book regardless of arguing about specific requirements like showing.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

QKid said:


> I am not interested in getting dogs from shelters, I am sorry. Sure, they may be cheap and healthy, but I don't feel like I know enough about where the dog came from. What if it was hurt and I lookd like the person who neglected it? What if it's got emotional distress? Also, I don't know if the shelters train the dogs, and I'm definitely not looking for a dog in the middle of it's life still pooping in the corner. My ignorance of how dogs in shelters really are is why I don't get any from there. Wheras, with all of the people I've gotten dogs from, I've seen the parents, known the breeders or at least people who've bought dogs from the breeder, etc. I don't like shooting in the dark, sorry.


YOu know, before I was willing to say maybe you just didn't know better and actually cared about not supporting bad breeders. But at this point.. you are one of those people that are definitely part of the problem and apparently not even interested in becoming part of hte solution.

Fine, you want a breeder. Take your time to find a good breeder. And be prepared to wait months before they have a puppy available for you cause most likely their puppies will be spoken for before they are even born. And be prepared to be able to prove that you are a good home. Not only do they want to make sure their puppies are getting good homes, they're going to want to make sure it comes back to them if something happens so it's even more in their best interest to make sure the puppy will go to a home that is most likely not to give the dog away for stupid reasons.

Or, find a purebred rescue or shelter that fosters those dogs. The foster parents live with the dogs and can easily tell you what personality the dog might have or problems it might have. And it is in their best interest to be honest cause tehy want to find an appropriate home, not trick some one who is not ready to take in a dog that might have potty issues or be a little shy (people who foster don't get any money from it and are doing it cause they care and want to see the animals get a good home). Unlike some breeder who is just trying to make money and wants to sell the dog. Once it's off his/her hands who cares what problems the dog might have? Your excuse for not going to a shelter just shows ignorance and does not justify you avoiding them (or at least taking the time to find a breeder who is trying to improve the breed vs. make the money).

You instead supported a back yard breeder (for the one that sold several different breeds I think I'd agree more likely a puppy mill) and want to justify it by fear of what comes from the shelters. yes, the deed is already done and I hope you give it a good home (not the dog's fault where it comes from), but it seems you do not even want to try to be better next time you choose a dog.

I will admit my dog's previous owner was not the most responsible guy but I am very happy he at least decided he was going to spay and make sure it never happened again (he at least learned better and I know he spayed her since I work at the vet he goes to so it wasn't just words). And he cared about my dog (you could tell he gave her lots of attention just by her attitude to him and his to her). At least enough to vaccinate her and keep all the puppies for five months and at least feed them something somewhat decent (I wouldn't feed it personally but it's still better and pricier than Pedigree or Old Roy) and not the cheapest food he could find.. Iams. For the price he asked he probably at best made 10 bux if even that, not near enough to justify the time he put into them... I make more than 10 dollars an hour. Most likely he lost money on the deal given vet care for mother as well. He cared more for the mutts from an accidental his dog got out than your breeder did for the rottweiler that she does business breeding (not even taking the time to vaccinate them?).


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Also, if you go with a reputable breeder and want to skip the potty-training time, many breeders have young dogs that they grew out that didn't work out for whatever reason and are now looking for a pet home. Or they sometimes will try to find retired dogs a pet home. That way you know your dog's past and you get to skip the puppy stage and potty-training stage.

I realize what's done is done, but I'm just trying to show that there are more options out there...


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I don't think dogs are ever really worth any amount of money, they are priceless. They should be your family, what you pay to bring them in is not the point. Do people compare the price they paid the hospital to deliver a baby? (I don't know, I've never had one, but that sounds kind of crass to me). My pets are my babies and what I paid for them wasn't important. Some came from rescues, some didn't. The costs were all different for each pet and they didn't matter at all.
What it is important to consider is who you're supporting with that money. 

It sounds like you bought the dog from a backyard breeder, and people make that mistake. I made it before I knew what I had done. I had planned on going to a shelter, but thought I had found a dog from a reputable breeder, and I hadn't. The only thing that can be done is to educate yourself and other people.
Don't feel guilty about it because the best thing to do now is give the dog a good life. But keep it in mind for the next dog, or people you know who are going to get a dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

QKid said:


> I am not interested in getting dogs from shelters, I am sorry. Sure, they may be cheap and healthy, but I don't feel like I know enough about where the dog came from. What if it was hurt and I lookd like the person who neglected it? What if it's got emotional distress? Also, I don't know if the shelters train the dogs, and I'm definitely not looking for a dog in the middle of it's life still pooping in the corner. My ignorance of how dogs in shelters really are is why I don't get any from there. Wheras, with all of the people I've gotten dogs from, I've seen the parents, known the breeders or at least people who've bought dogs from the breeder, etc. I don't like shooting in the dark, sorry.


So shooting in the clear is buying a dog that's not vaccinated?

As for the shelter, what difference does it matter where they came from? How you raise and care for the dog will not be any different than if it were a breeder pup. Both dogs came from the same place...most likely the womb of a female dog. 

I'd say a pup that's not vaccinated *is* a dog that's neglected. And as far as emotional distress...who knows what's going on inside the mother's womb? She could be lighting up cigarettes and drinking booze to cope with the pregnancy for all we know. I'm being facetious, but we can play this "ya but" game all day.

I say this like I would say it to my mother, and I love my mother...perhaps your ignorance is the reason why you're paying $300 for a dog that is not vaccinated, and from sketchy people. You don't have to use your ignorance as an excuse.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Let's see, where'd my dogs come from?

Backyard breeder that lived a block away. Runt of the litter, partially paralyzed by age 4 and dead by age five. Otherwise a lovely dog.
"Good" breeder with champion lines. The only AKC dog I'm ever likely to own. Lived to 14 and never sick a day in his life, despite eating table scraps, Gravy Train and Gainesburgers all his life. And radishes he dug up in the garden. (He was a beagle.)
Stray that found me on the streets in Santa Barbara. Terrific dog, about nine when I got her. She was free, already spayed and beautifully trained. I eventually located the owner and, when he found out what that dog's new life was like, he surrendered her to me and wouldn't take a dime.
Ad in the local shopper. That was Cubby. I paid $100 for him and he would have been a bargain for $1000.
Shelter dog (Esther.) I think the adoption fee was around $100 and I had her spayed and vaccinated by my own vet. She easily did $1000 in damage before we reached an understanding of sorts. She was a bargain.
Owner surrender (Molly) by a woman who'd had a stroke and could not care for her. The $200 I gave her was pretty much a free-will offering. She mostly wanted assurances that I would care for Molly for the rest of her life. She was a bargain, too.
Where am I going with this? I have no idea, but good dogs come from all sorts of places and what you pay up front has very little to do with how they'll turn out. It's also a very small percentage of what it will cost to maintain a healthy dog for a lifetime.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

*jesirose:*
I understand. I know it's probably just a silly excuse, but growing up, my parents would buy several dogs from.. I guess you call them backyard breeders? I didn't know any better, I just figured that if the dog looked nice, was well with people, and was fed, you could take of the rest yourself. And you paid them because hey, at least they kept the dog alive and healthy. That's why I don't see buying a dog without vaccines a problem, it's happened all the time when I grew up.



> I'd say a pup that's not vaccinated *is* a dog that's neglected. And as far as emotional distress...who knows what's going on inside the mother's womb? She could be lighting up cigarettes and drinking booze to cope with the pregnancy for all we know. I'm being facetious, but we can play this "ya but" game all day.


Dogs smoke? Nice use of unrealistic sarcasm there.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Just have to give props to my shelter pup

I got him at 12 weeks old, have had him 3 1/2 weeks now. He is well on his way to being potty trained, loves his crate and is doing great learning commands. I had to drive a tiny bit extra to the next county, but I found a mix that I wanted that was the right age, and had been raised in a foster home with his mom and his littermates. He is microchipped, wormed, 2 sets of vaccinations, and neutered. Grand total: $100 

And btw, just because you saw the "family" doesn't mean you know anything about the health and temperment backgrounds of your pup, same as a shelter pup.

Here is a picture of my find:


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

QKid said:


> Dogs smoke? Nice use of unrealistic sarcasm there.


Yes, it is unrealistic, just as you knowing what's going on inside the dog's womb, just because you bought it from a breeder, is also unrealistic. That's what I was hoping you would deduce, not the sarcasm.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

QKid said:


> *jesirose:*
> I understand. I know it's probably just a silly excuse, but growing up, my parents would buy several dogs from.. I guess you call them backyard breeders? I didn't know any better, I just figured that if the dog looked nice, was well with people, and was fed, you could take of the rest yourself. And you paid them because hey, at least they kept the dog alive and healthy. That's why I don't see buying a dog without vaccines a problem, it's happened all the time when I grew up.


Well, to start rabies vaccines are required by law.....


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

QKid said:


> *jesirose:*
> I understand. I know it's probably just a silly excuse, but growing up, my parents would buy several dogs from.. I guess you call them backyard breeders? I didn't know any better, I just figured that if the dog looked nice, was well with people, and was fed, you could take of the rest yourself. And you paid them because hey, at least they kept the dog alive and healthy. That's why I don't see buying a dog without vaccines a problem, it's happened all the time when I grew up.
> 
> 
> Dogs smoke? Nice use of unrealistic sarcasm there.


In keeping with the smoking, my parents smoke all the time. Does that mean it's a good idea for me to do it? If no one had ever told me better, I wouldn't know. Now people have told you don't smoke because of x, y and z. You can either learn from that, or keep thinking it's a good idea to smoke. Which makes more sense? Doing something just because your parents did it, or learning a better way?

My point is there is nothing you can do to change the past, only the future. Now you have a chance to learn that byb are not a good place to buy from, and instead of dwelling on the fact that you did it, and keep trying to explain why, you can make a better choice next time. You can get purebred puppies from a shelter, or you can find a reputable breeder and pay a fortune for a dog that isn't that much different  I don't know where my next dog will come from if I ever get another, but it will not be a BYB. That is my choice because now I know better.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

And now I know better. I didn't even know the phrase backyard breeders existed, but now I know to make better chocies.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

QKid said:


> And now I know better. I didn't even know the phrase backyard breeders existed, but now I know to make better chocies.


(((hug))) that's what everyone was waiting to hear


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here's a good thread to browse if you want to know about the difference between good breeders and the not so good.

http://www.dogforums.com/2-general-dog-forum/7077-finding-good-dog-breeder.html

Don't worry, I have a byb pup too. You live and learn. I've since then decided to make sure my dogs only come from rescues or great breeders who are doing the best for their dogs and dogs in general. It's all about ethics to me.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

JenTN said:


> (((hug))) that's what everyone was waiting to hear


Agreed  

Now post some pics of your new baby!


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

I have a really hard time gauging a dogs worth by the price I paid for him. To me, that's not the issue at all. I wonder if these same discussions were held after the slave auctions were done?


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## Mac'N'Roe (Feb 15, 2008)

QKid said:


> And now I know better. I didn't even know the phrase backyard breeders existed, but now I know to make better chocies.


This is what this forum is all about! So proud of you QKid for reaching out and taking in the information and advice of the people here. 

I can't wait to see pictures of your new puppy!


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

QKid said:


> And now I know better. I didn't even know the phrase backyard breeders existed, but now I know to make better chocies.


Thats a good attitude! Now that you have learned,hopefully your next dog will come from either a rescue,shelter or reputable breeder!! 

I am involved with rescues (a beagle rescue and greyhound rescue) and I foster dogs.I give the dogs a bit of training and confidance of being in a house before they get adopted.So if you go the breed rescue route and get a dog that has been in a foster home,you will at least know generally how the dog will be behave.Of course we don't know the history of all the dogs,but we do know at least some of the history of some of the dogs.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Alright, Alright, Sounds like you now know better as you got the NO BACK YARD BREEDERS or PUPPY MILLS speech. I applaud you for now understanding and next time, hopefully doing better. NOW, Can we see a photo of the new dog in question, PLEASE! I am a big fan as you can tell by my Avatar and signature. There is NO such thing as a Rottie not worth $300.00. The problem as you now know it promotes irresponsible people doing the wrong things.
I can't wait to see your new baby. Name?


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## B-Line (Feb 1, 2008)

The real price of dog ownership:

I think it's silly to even bother looking at the price of the dog unless it's outrageously expensive. And I'm talking $3000 and up, not $300.

If you're going to adopt a dog, especially from a breeder, I'd rather pay someone thousands than pay a non caring breeder, hundreds..

Why? I know, not everyone can afford a $2000 dog. I understand that. But if you actually calculate how much a puppy/dog costs to own, you will quickly see that the initial price means next to nothing. - So bottom line, if you can't afford a good breeder, you can't afford a dog. 

My 6 month old puppy is very healthy and has already cost me over $1000 in vet bills, shots, she was just spayed, medications, etc.

Then lets talk about crates. I needed 3. And the play pens, I needed two of those. And the dog beds, two of those, the food, treats, toys, collars, leashes, easily another couple hundred. Lets not forget shampoo, nail trimmers, etc. 

Now lets not forget everything in the house the puppy will destroy no matter how well you watch it. Carpet, curtains, floors, landscaping, pillows, blankets, remote controls and worst of all, all the clothing they will rip when they are play biting, etc. -- Oh yeah, it's a puppy.. Wee wee pads, paper towels, odor remover, garbage bags, vitamin suppliments, training tools like a short lead, clicker, whistle.. A professional trainer (if needed), obedience classes, etc.

Car washes for when you dog gets filthy and is getting in and out of the car. Dog sitters or kennel, dog walkers if you work all the time..

My point is, the list of expenses goes on and on for having a pet. So the "buy" price becomes quickly irrelevant in the overall cost of ownership.

Yes, there are less expensive ways to raise a dog, but they are costly no matter what way you slice it. So if you can't afford to get a dog from a good breeder, you can't afford to have a dog as a pet. - That does not mean that all dogs have to be bought. Nothing wrong with adopting. But if your concerned about $300 and the dog being able to come on command, you're going to have much bigger issues to look forward to in the near future.

You can teach a dog to come by holding up a piece of food. It ain't rocket science.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

709Juggalette said:


> Thats a good attitude! Now that you have learned,hopefully your next dog will come from either a rescue,shelter or reputable breeder!!
> 
> I am involved with rescues (a beagle rescue and greyhound rescue) and I foster dogs.I give the dogs a bit of training and confidance of being in a house before they get adopted.So if you go the breed rescue route and get a dog that has been in a foster home,you will at least know generally how the dog will be behave.Of course we don't know the history of all the dogs,but we do know at least some of the history of some of the dogs.


That's good to know. I don't know much about shelters/rescues, so I figured it was a lot of lost/neglected dogs who came to this place, and people could get them if they wanted. Therefore, my main concern was reckless behaviour. I'll definately be looking into sheltered dogs next time.
-----------------
I decided on the name Aladdin. Ignore all the junk papers under the sofa. 



















I wish I could've gotten one of him standing up. He's huge. We went to the vet today; he's 24.8 pounds already.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

What a cuuuuuutie pie! Bo weightd in at 26 lbs at 3 months, 2 weeks ago. Maybe our babies need to get together to play w/ someone their own size


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

OH MAN! I thought you said 10 month old. He is only about 10 weeks old. What a little sugar plum. You can send him to my house right now! I love the name. Don't let him get too big to fast. Feed him a high quality adult food so he does not grow too fast. You want to prevent any joint issues. What a lover boy. Stick around we can compare Rottie puppy stories. I have one that just turned 6 months. He is about 74 pounds right now. I have had Rotties for over 28 years and just can't get enough of them. I don't suppose the parents were OFA'd? Do you know his bloodlines?


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

*JenTN:*
I'm so used to having small dogs, though, so when I head the vet say 24 pounds, I said "Oh my goodness, isn't that too much?" it's good to know that he's right on track. He's about 2 and a half months, so he'll probably be the same weight as Bo. 

It'd be great for them to play together lol, seeing that my chihuahua has no intention of playing with him. He's already bigger than she is XD

Inga:
Did I say 10 months? I meant weeks, so sorry. Any suggestions for foods? I've got him on Purina now, but you've got over 28 years of expeirience, so you're the best person I should ask.

But, OFA'd? I feel a bit dumb, but could you tell me what that means?


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

QKid said:


> *JenTN:*
> I'm so used to having small dogs, though, so when I head the vet say 24 pounds, I said "Oh my goodness, isn't that too much?" it's good to know that he's right on track. He's about 2 and a half months, so he'll probably be the same weight as Bo.
> 
> It'd be great for them to play together lol, seeing that my chihuahua has no intention of playing with him. He's already bigger than she is XD
> ...



My kittens don't wanna play with bo either 

Just to let you know, I switched Bo to Innova large breed puppy and it's doing well for him


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I actually rotate through a few brands of food. I use Canidae All life stages (best bang for the buck) also Chicken Soup for the dog soul large breed adult, Fromm, Taste of the Wild, Innova. Any of those are very good foods. They do cost more then Purina, but let's face it, we wouldn't raise our kids on Doritos even though they probably could live on them. It is the same theory. You want to give your puppy the best nutrition that you can for him to grow up nice and strong. Also, as so many new Rottie owners can be hung up on "HOW BIG MY DOG IS." Remember keeping his weight down is healthiest. Bigger is NOT better. 
What I was referring to was that the father and mother had their hips,elbows, heart and eyes certified for health. It is what we old time Rottie owners cringe at with all the back yard breeders. They often do not do health checks on their breeding dogs and continue to pass along BIG health issues. My Rotties of old lived 14 or so years. Now days people seem shocked when 1 hits 10 years old. My little girl was put to sleep in November 2 weeks before her 13th birthday. Do you know any of the parents registered names? Did you get papers on him? Doesn't change the fact that if you train and socialize him well he could quite possibly be the best dog you have ever seen in your life. Yes, I am partial to the breed. LOL I strongly advise you to take him to obedience class right away. Puppy socialization class now and continue on into some structured obedience. It is super important to socialize this breed and continue to do so through out his life. Early neutering will also help keep things in check and unless you will be showing him in conformation there is no reason to not get him fixed as soon as you can. I am a dog forum junkie so if you at any time have any questions I and many many others will be here to help you out. Please Please socialize this pup with everything and every body once he is UTD on shots. He is so cute I just want to smooch his little face.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

Lol, I understand what you mean about the Doritios. The main reason I chose Purina was because I was going to look around for good foods for Rotties, and Purina would just be able to hold him. I didn't want to pay too much for something that wouldn't benefit him as much, you know?

And yes, I know the registered name of the parents. And yes, I got papers on him. The parents were certified, in all of those areas, fortunately. The BYB seemed to care more about the adult dogs than the puppies, hence why they've been checked for all of that and the pups hadn't even gotten vaccines. I'll be sure to find some obidience classes. Unfortunately, like pitbulls, people see rotties and think that they're big mean dogs that just want to hurt people, which is so not true.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Yeah, some of mine have been real killers too. LOL That is why I get them Therapy Certified and do public education on the breed so that others will see how nice they can be.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Here is my newest puppy...








then and now.









You could say that you got the deal of the century if you got a puppy from Health tested and certified parents for $300.00. I am very happy for you. He is a real cutie too.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

Oh my goodness, they're all so gorgeous! And the pup is so adorable.


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

Rotties are one of my favorite breeds...so all these rott pics are waaayyy too much! It is a cuteness overload! I would love a rottie,but they are not the breed for me,so I admire other people's rotties.


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## aprilia (Apr 6, 2008)

It all depends on what _you_ wanted. Personally? I'd much rather get a dog from a shelter for $55 (or less in some cities), that's microchipped and at least has it's rabies shot. 

If over population problem solved itself tomorrow and all shelters closed tomorrow and all that was left for my canine companion choices were the two breeders that you purchased from, I'd go with the $300 dog with the shots just the same. A big risk for unvaccinated puppies? Parvo. Another great way to rack up a nasty vet bill in a short period of time. Any dog can be trained and what proof do have that this second dog had any training at all? The breeder clearly couldn't prove it to you by having the dog "come here". Hopefully, you weren't taken for a ride by someone that just wanted to pad their own pockets for little to no work on their part.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

Proof? Well, the breeder said "Sit" and he sat. He said "Stay" and he stayed. He said come here, and the dog ignored him. The pup was also housetrained, not only did the breeder say so, but when I got home I found that he could handle his business on command (after a bit of sniffing).


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I know that the basic jist of byb and millers has hit the op now, but the cost arguments kind of bother me.
This year alone I have spent $5500 on 2 pups and one is a co-own (that doesnt even live here). Does this make my dogs better than shelter dogs for pets? No, not one bit. 
If I were looking solely for a pet and spent that kind of money, I would greatly accept all the "you are friggen nuts" comments that would come along after that.
However myself I had plans for these dogs, many plans, and I wanted to take as many precautions against hereditary issues as possible, while yes, no amount of testing can completely irradicate genetic issues in breeds, its still in my opinion far better to pay the cost upfront and save some money later on in life. 
The way I see it, 7 generations of clear hips/elbows/eyes and thyroid in my Tibetan Mastiff and 5 generations of good hearts/hips/eyes/thyroids ect ect in my boxer is enough ressurance I need to justify the purchase prices of them. Then add on the Ch lineage and careful breeding (with purpose) practices carried out by the breeders that eventually led up to my 2 sweet hearts, hands down I would say I got a bargain. 
Not to mention the gaurantees I have with them both.

I think cost depends more on what you are paying for/supporting than anything else. 
If you can think honestly sit back and justify every penny of the purchase prices of your pets (shelter or other) then what you paid is fair.

Would I pay that kind of money for a doodle, a-poo, or byb dog? Nevah, for those dogs I would gladly pay shelter adoption prices and then a little bonus in the form of a donation to the shelter. The way I see shelter prices, they are really inexpensive considering what you are paying for.

Now to the adorable little rottie puppy that sparked this thread.
How friggen cute! Keep the pics coming, and all the advice I can give right now on that subject... Love him, nurture him and neuter him. You have a wonderful companion and I'm sure you will have many years together.


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## aprilia (Apr 6, 2008)

QKid said:


> Proof? Well, the breeder said "Sit" and he sat. He said "Stay" and he stayed. He said come here, and the dog ignored him. The pup was also housetrained, not only did the breeder say so, but when I got home I found that he could handle his business on command (after a bit of sniffing).


I taught my dogs to sit and stay in 20 minutes. I guess it depends on how much twenty minutes of your time is worth to you? *shrug* In the end, I'd still struggle with the BYB thing, but that's just me.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

At 10 weeks old, he is not housetrained. He might have a general idea of what to do, but it's not possible for a pup that age to be fully potty trained. They just can't hold it yet. It's good they started him, but don't expect perfection.

I'm surprised he's still alive if he was never vaccinated. Parvo and Distemper are very contagious, can be spread by local wildlife, and can live in the soil for years. He sure was lucky. It's rare for an unvaccinated pup to live to be 10 weeks old.

Are you sure the parents were OFA certified and have all the other health clearances? That's VERY rare in non-show dogs. It's very likely they're AKC registered, but I really doubt they have all their health clearances.

I have a Rott. His first owner paid $300 for him when he was a pup. Totally BYBs. His mother and the pups lived in an old restaurant deep-freeze with the door taken off. His father lived in a 6' x 12' kennel. He did have his first set of shots and was dewormed. AKC registered but the parent dogs did not have any health clearances. He's really a nice dog......I don't know how nice his parents were, but he's great. His first owner did reinforce some bad habits, mainly resource guarding. This is something you'll want to prevent while he's young, you don't want to deal with it when he's grown up and weighs 120 pounds. I'm sure you can find some good advice about it. But just remember----it is NOT cute if he growls at you when you touch his food!!! This needs immediate work! And force-based methods (like smacking him) will do no good at all.


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

aprilia said:


> I taught my dogs to sit and stay in 20 minutes. I guess it depends on how much twenty minutes of your time is worth to you? *shrug* In the end, I'd still struggle with the BYB thing, but that's just me.


And I can get a dog vaccinated in about 20 minutes. Well, less than that but you have to wait a bit in the vet's office.

It' not a matter of what I can do for my dog myself, it's which one did people feel was the better buy - the one with vaccines and no tricks, or the one with tricks and no vaccines.


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## aprilia (Apr 6, 2008)

Drive time, wait time, gas money, the cost of the shots, the risk that your puppy could contract Parvo and rack up a huge vet bill and possibly die on top of the huge vet bill... Give me a dog that already has it's shots (no matter the price) all day long.


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

QKid said:


> But I'm glad that you don't plan to hold the fact that I got my dog from irresponsible breeder against me.


I dont hold it against you at all simply because i made the mistake of getting my middle dog from a BYB.

I see it like this as long as you now know(like me) not to further encourage these BYB by filling their pockets with yet more cash to continue their "unwanted dog boom" and learn from this by giving your dog the best life you possibly can,then you made a good thing out of a bad one.

In this instance repeating this is the one thing to remember never to do again.

Hope your dog does well.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Yup, I think Qkid has learned about BYB and not to do that again. Right now I suspect he/she is just very excited to have a super cute puppy running around and next on the agenda should be being available to answer any questions about training and behavior if any should arise. 
Qkid, I sure hope you intend to hang out with us as this puppy grows up so we can share puppy stories and life with the most amazing breed on Earth. LOL
Have you had a chance to check into puppy socialization classes? How is Aladdin doing today?
Today, I went to a friends house for a get together with a few of our friends. We always bring our dogs to these events so I brought my 2 boys and there were 2 Beagles and a Standard Poodle as well. They were in a rather small place, but everyone got along very well. This socialization is of the utmost importance starting from a young age. (once all shots are UTD) I hope you will feel compelled to post like 100 pictures or so. LOL


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

Inga said:


> Yup, I think Qkid has learned about BYB and not to do that again. Right now I suspect she is just very excited to have a super cute puppy running around and next on the agenda should be being available to answer any questions about training and behavior if any should arise.


You hit the nail right on the head there.


> Qkid, I sure hope you intend to hang out with us as this puppy grows up so we can share puppy stories and life with the most amazing breed on Earth. LOL


I certainly plan to.


> Have you had a chance to check into puppy socialization classes? How is Aladdin doing today?
> Today, I went to a friends house for a get together with a few of our friends. We always bring our dogs to these events so I brought my 2 boys and there were 2 Beagles and a Standard Poodle as well. They were in a rather small place, but everyone got along very well. This socialization is of the utmost importance starting from a young age. (once all shots are UTD) I hope you will feel compelled to post like 100 pictures or so. LOL


He's doing great. Just sleeping a lot, as expected (I think??). When he is awake, he's eager to follow my chihuahua, Diamond, who could use a socialization class now that I see how much she seems to loathe him. She doesn't bite or scratch him, just a few angry growls.

I looked into a socialization class at PetSmart. A friend of mine told me she was pleased with the classes there, but I'm a bit iffy about it. I don't really know where else I can look, so I'll have to go with it. Classes are every Saturday until the first Sat. of June, starting April 19th. It's not JUST socialization, though. The only class offered for his age was the 'Puppies' class (no surprise), and it'll be touching up on some basic commands, socialization, recognizing name, etc. I'm looking forward to it. I can't wait to rest assured that he can get along well with other people and animals, like your dogs can.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Do you have a kennel club in your area? Most of the time it is a better deal to join the kennel club and train there. Usually cheaper and more breed focus. Knowledgeable people etc... The classes should be continuous. Even when the dog seems perfect it is fun to train and important to continue socializing.
Really hoping for more pictures. LOL


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

I'll be sure to look into Kennel Clubs. I'd much rather have classes specifically for the rottweiler breed than just the general puppy population.

Latest one I took. Not really doing much but being a drowsy pup. He'd just got done running around a bit. Time for his nap lol. I wanted to move him somewhere more comfy, but snapped this before I did.


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## nirok (Apr 6, 2008)

enjoy your dog, it doesn't matter how mych you paid for it....


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## Chindo_Gae_Cerberus (Mar 24, 2008)

You have astounding ignorance all around. 
I just want you to know that. 
You are still utterly clueless. 

You CHOOSE to remain uneducated on these matters because you want your quick gratification. 

People such as yourself, are the reason why byb's and millers still exist. 
Talk about turning a blind eye.

You want the truth on your money and care questions.
There you have it.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

Chindo_Gae_Cerberus said:


> You have astounding ignorance all around.
> I just want you to know that.
> You are still utterly clueless.
> 
> ...


Who are you talking to? Have you even read the rest of the thread?


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

Chindo_Gae_Cerberus said:


> You have astounding ignorance all around.
> I just want you to know that.
> You are still utterly clueless.
> 
> ...



yes please go back and read the whole thread....... 
you missed a great deal.....


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## Mr Pooch (Jan 28, 2008)

Chindo_Gae_Cerberus said:


> You have astounding ignorance all around.
> I just want you to know that.
> You are still utterly clueless.
> 
> ...


Steady on there,bit harsh dont ya think,the OP understands her faults and has stated so.


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

See why this place is so great?? I was the SAME exact way as the OP. I came here all excited about my new puppy and...well...you all know the rest.  I loved reading this thread. I think it's great when someone can admit they had no clue and learn from it. 

Congrats on your new puppy - he's beautiful. Much luck to you!


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

Ella'sMom said:


> See why this place is so great?? I was the SAME exact way as the OP. I came here all excited about my new puppy and...well...you all know the rest.  I loved reading this thread. I think it's great when someone can admit they had no clue and learn from it.
> 
> Congrats on your new puppy - he's beautiful. Much luck to you!


Thanks!

I'm so shocked to find out that if I hadn't found this place and asked this question, I'd probably have no knowledge of how bad puppy mills and BYBs are are, and why they should be out of business for good.

*Chindo_Gae_Cerberus:*
Even though I have laearned my lesson, I will reply to this. I didn't choose to remain ignorant - I'd never even heard of backyard breeders. When I heard people here mention them, I looked up on what they were, and now I know. You can't CHOOSE to be ignorant of omething when no one's told you what they are. However, if someone would say "BYB's are irresponsible" and I knew what a BYB was and I continued to purchase dogs from them, that'd be my choosing to be ignorant. And you talk about me wanting quick gratification, yet YOU'RE the one who was quick to type out a personal attack so you could somehow crush my heart before you read the rest of the thread and found out that I now knew that what I did was wrong. On top of that, you never even answered my question. You just pointed out how much of a big bad wolf I was.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

QKid, Don't worry about classes that are for Rottweilers specifically. They are dogs just like any other breed of dog. Finding someone that "claims" to specialize in Rottweilers might just be someone that is heavy handed in their training methods. NOT what you will want for a Rottweiler. 
I am laughing at the pics of Aladdin. He reminds me of my own boy at that age. Play, crash, play, crash. Big time power nappers. Also make sure you supply a super soft place to sleep. You want to protect those joints at all cost. These are such heavy dogs that they put stress on those joints just laying down. They grow so fast and can be a bit clumsy at times. Make sure you don't allow him to chase your other dog at any time. Remember not to let him do anything now that you won't want him doing when he is over 100 pounds.


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## aprilia (Apr 6, 2008)

QKid said:


> Even though I have laearned my lesson, I will reply to this. I didn't choose to remain ignorant - I'd never even heard of backyard breeders. When I heard people here mention them, I looked up on what they were, and now I know. You can't CHOOSE to be ignorant of omething when no one's told you what they are. However, if someone would say "BYB's are irresponsible" and I knew what a BYB was and I continued to purchase dogs from them, that'd be my choosing to be ignorant. And you talk about me wanting quick gratification, yet YOU'RE the one who was quick to type out a personal attack so you could somehow crush my heart before you read the rest of the thread and found out that I now knew that what I did was wrong. On top of that, you never even answered my question. You just pointed out how much of a big bad wolf I was.


Devil's advocate here... I think what was being said with the 'instant gratification', was that you didn't bother to do research on WHERE the dog was coming from. If you rely only on other people telling you about something I'm surprised you've survived in the world this long.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

aprilia said:


> Devil's advocate here... I think what was being said with the 'instant gratification', was that you didn't bother to do research on WHERE the dog was coming from. If you rely only on other people telling you about something I'm surprised you've survived in the world this long.


What does that mean? Nobody knows everything. We all have to learn.. Some of us have been lucky to learn them early and some later. Wouldn't it be nicer to just try to educate without insulting someone?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

QKID, ask us that question again when you're having health problems with your rottie and paying out BIG$$$$$$$ for a hip replactment, tplo surgery or your rottie is dyiing of cardio Myopothy or cancer at less than 3 years old. 

I've made your mistake, and paid for it in the end. My Mastiff died at 15 months from Cardio Myopothy. I will NEVER buy from another puppy mill/byb again!

BTW, your pup is cute, I love Rotties and other working breeds. I really HOPE you come out better than I did with your pup, for his sake and yours.


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## dre2142 (Mar 10, 2008)

QKid said:


> I looked into a socialization class at PetSmart. A friend of mine told me she was pleased with the classes there, but I'm a bit iffy about it. I don't really know where else I can look, so I'll have to go with it. Classes are every Saturday until the first Sat. of June, starting April 19th. It's not JUST socialization, though. The only class offered for his age was the 'Puppies' class (no surprise), and it'll be touching up on some basic commands, socialization, recognizing name, etc. I'm looking forward to it. I can't wait to rest assured that he can get along well with other people and animals, like your dogs can.


My pup is in this class, and its a good class. It teaches the owners more than the dog....


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

We're starting the puppy class at PetSmart this saturday too. I think it's important to make sure you are confident in their ability. Each store has a different instructor (or several) and you should watch their classes at least once and talk to them to find out if it's right for you.


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## tigress (Feb 6, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> QKID, ask us that question again when you're having health problems with your rottie and paying out BIG$$$$$$$ for a hip replactment, tplo surgery or your rottie is dyiing of cardio Myopothy or cancer at less than 3 years old.


Alright people, give it a rest. He's posted he knows better now and will do better next time but the deed is already done so there is no reason to keep beating him up about it (and if you notice early in this thread, I was one arguing with him).

If he was defending his choice and saying he saw nothing wrong with it that would be one thing. But he's said several times he realizes the "error of his ways" so why don't we just help him with advice on how to caer for his new pup ?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

IF you read my WHOLE post you'd realize I wasn't beating him up, I was relaying MY OWN experience. It's very painful to lose a dog far to young to something that could have been avoided had the breeder done health testing on their dogs.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

QKid, Hoping to see some more pictures soon. Maybe now? LOL Puppies change so fast. I bet Aladdin has already grown. Kiss him and hold him and touch every part of him a lot now while you can. He will soon outgrow the holding part. Make sure to gently handle his mouth and touch his teeth a lot as well. Nails too. It seems that All of my Rotties were fussy about their feet at first. Best to teach while they are puppies. 
Hey this dog was from a crappy breeder and look at how cute he is.









Kidding, he was a rescue and of course, his eye brows do not look like that for real. LOL


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> IF you read my WHOLE post you'd realize I wasn't beating him up, I was relaying MY OWN experience. It's very painful to lose a dog far to young to something that could have been avoided had the breeder done health testing on their dogs.


Yeah, I got that you weren't trying to beat me up when I read about your Mastiff. I'm so sorry to hear that he passed at such a young age.

*Inga:*
LOL I love that picture. So cute! I was a bit shocked by the eyebrows of course, so I'm glad you cleared that one up. Aladdin doesn't really look that different, then again, I'm living with him. I'm sure I'll notice the change when he hits 100 pounds, though lol.

I'm having some nipping problems with him - not malicious, I think he means it as a friendly gesture, like licking, but it's not okay. How'd you deal with your rotties and nipping?


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Bo is in Petsmart puppy class, and I am very pleased with it. Yours may be different, but ours is NOT just socialization. The teach loose leash walking, sit, stay, leave it, drop it, take it, with me, come, watch me, down, and probably some others that I can't think of. It is a wonderful obedience foundation. After he finishes puppy class, I plan on taking him through beginning and advanced classes. The trainer explained last night that the advanced class is preparing them to take and pass the Canine Good Citizen (CGC) test.

It is wonderful for socialization, but that is definitely not the only thing. Also, if I have even the silliest question, I can pick up the phone and speak with a trainer or have them call me back.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

QKid said:


> Yeah, I got that you weren't trying to beat me up when I read about your Mastiff. I'm so sorry to hear that he passed at such a young age.
> 
> *Inga:*
> LOL I love that picture. So cute! I was a bit shocked by the eyebrows of course, so I'm glad you cleared that one up. Aladdin doesn't really look that different, then again, I'm living with him. I'm sure I'll notice the change when he hits 100 pounds, though lol.
> ...


Thisis THE most effective way to stop undesired biting. Be sure you're consistant and you'll have it under control in NO time! 

http://www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/berner1/bitestop.htm


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

JenTN said:


> Bo is in Petsmart puppy class, and I am very pleased with it. Yours may be different, but ours is NOT just socialization. The teach loose leash walking, sit, stay, leave it, drop it, take it, with me, come, watch me, down, and probably some others that I can't think of. It is a wonderful obedience foundation. After he finishes puppy class, I plan on taking him through beginning and advanced classes. The trainer explained last night that the advanced class is preparing them to take and pass the Canine Good Citizen (CGC) test.
> 
> It is wonderful for socialization, but that is definitely not the only thing. Also, if I have even the silliest question, I can pick up the phone and speak with a trainer or have them call me back.


That sounds wonderful. But one question - if I have already established a form of any of those commands, will they allow me to keep it that way, or must I follow one of their given commands? Also, how long do they spend on teaching each thing? 

The reason I ask is because I've already come up with a hand signal for the command "Come" (saying it at the same time), and since it works for Aladdin, I don't really see much of a reason to change it. Of course, if they convince me otherwise, I'll comply, but I don't want my pup to get confused. Also, he already knows sit and is good at following the command (I'm working on getting him to stay sitting while I go through doors, then letting him through now), so I was wondering if we'd have an entire class on each comand, or if it depended on how far people got, if speeds were different for each person (like independent training in one place), etc.

*cshelenberger:*
Thanks!


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

I was wondering when he was going to start the class. 

I would want all three sets of shots done a couple of weeks before I exposed a puppy to somewhere like Petsmart. He is lucky that he is still healthy now. I wouldn't want to test the waters more before he gets all of his shots.

The breeder put your dog in a very unhealthy situation. Now you need to take extra precations because of it. Even when he go's to the vet, I wouldn't let him walk on the floor. Carry the dog inside and out. Put him on the table so they can do the exam. As the always say, if you wanna get sick go to the hospital. Vets offices are covered in disease just because so many sick dogs walk through the door everyday.

He needs to be contained in your house until his shots are done. To socialize I would ask friends to come over and meet him. They could even bring their dogs if the dogs are up to date on shots.

I don't mean to scare you, but I think we all want your pup to be healthy and happy.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree with getting all shots before class and carrying in and out of the vet. (be happy he is still light weight LOL) Make sure that Aladdin has several appropriate chew toys like Nylabone Galileo, Kong's (you can stuff with peanut butter and freeze, Large tennis balls too. Keep him busy, work obedience, redirect etc... It is a pretty short phase but when you are going through it those sharp little puppy teeth are something else. Were mom and dad shown at all? Were they working dogs? Did they have good temperaments?


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

QKid said:


> That sounds wonderful. But one question - if I have already established a form of any of those commands, will they allow me to keep it that way, or must I follow one of their given commands? Also, how long do they spend on teaching each thing?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I've already come up with a hand signal for the command "Come" (saying it at the same time), and since it works for Aladdin, I don't really see much of a reason to change it. Of course, if they convince me otherwise, I'll comply, but I don't want my pup to get confused. Also, he already knows sit and is good at following the command (I'm working on getting him to stay sitting while I go through doors, then letting him through now), so I was wondering if we'd have an entire class on each comand, or if it depended on how far people got, if speeds were different for each person (like independent training in one place), etc.
> 
> ...



I think you would need to ask your specific trainer about the signals and commands. They spend a while in each class explaining how to do things, practicing, and then you practice, practice, practice, practice at home


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## QKid (Apr 5, 2008)

Well, Petsmart won't allow dogs that aren't UTD on shots come to the classes. Not where I am, anyways. And I got him a Nylabone, but he didn't care for it much. He loves the Kong toys though, especially the treats. I got him some balls and other things, as well.

I saw the mom and dad. They had great temperaments, but couldn't be more different. Dad was calm and would come out and sniff you a little and lick you, then sit right next to you while you petted him to your heart's delight. Mom was super-friendly and high energy, and would jump up on you if not restrained. Needless to say, I prefered the calm demeanor of Dad, but I kept in mind that Aladdin could turn out like his mother. Either way, they were friendly dogs.

I don't know about working, I know they were taken out with the BYBs to go bird hunting, which I fonud a bit odd, because I didn't know rotties to be hunting dogs..

*JenTN:*
Okay, I surely will do so. I especially liked the fact that I could call up a trainer if need be.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

QKid said:


> Well, Petsmart won't allow dogs that aren't UTD on shots come to the classes. Not where I am, anyways. And I got him a Nylabone, but he didn't care for it much. He loves the Kong toys though, especially the treats. I got him some balls and other things, as well.


I don't think UTD is enough. The dog needs to have all of his puppy shots done, and enough time needs to pass after the shots for them to work through his system.

Think of it like a baby. The parents don't allow a baby out of the house until they are almost two months old. They want to make sure that the baby has a good enough immune sytem to fight off anything and everything.

Dogs are walking through the door of petsmart all day. And I promise you without a doubt in my mind that some of those aren't up to date on shots. Which very well means they could be bringing disease in with them.

I have a puppy that is 5 months old now. She was not allowed to be around any dogs but mine and my sister's dogs until she was 3 1/2 months old. 

Puppies immune systems are very weak. And your puppies immune system is even weaker than the average because the breeder didn't properly take care of him. You need to give him time in a sanitary envirment for his immune system to become stable. 

When did he get his first shots? Did the vet do a fecal test? I would want him tested for any kind of worms. Worms could spread to the other dog you have in your house.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> Think of it like a baby. The parents don't allow a baby out of the house until they are almost two months old. They want to make sure that the baby has a good enough immune sytem to fight off anything and everything.


Really? All the new parents I know just HAD to drag their new addition off to church, to the store, to grandma's house, etc. as soon as the mom could walk again  . Maybe some of them wait a week. Perhaps they're irresponsible breeders?  Off-topic, yes, but haha, I just had to put that in.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Really? All the new parents I know just HAD to drag their new addition off to church, to the store, to grandma's house, etc. as soon as the mom could walk again  . Maybe some of them wait a week. Perhaps they're irresponsible breeders?  Off-topic, yes, but haha, I just had to put that in.


Well I have never had a baby. My children tend to have four legs instead of two. 

Two months was a bit an exaggeration. But I come from a medical background and experience, so safety first. New mothers should wait at least 4 weeks before taking their babies to highly populated areas. They can go to Granny's house and for a ride in the car, but cation is never a bad thing. 

This is why you wash your hands before holding newborns.


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## JenTN (Feb 21, 2008)

Keep in mind that while Petsmart won't let unvaccinated dogs into classes. there are tons of dogs whom you have no idea if they are UTD coming in there everyday. And quite a bit of the training is done outside of the "training area" and in the aisles of the store.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

QKid said:


> Well, Petsmart won't allow dogs that aren't UTD on shots come to the classes. Not where I am, anyways. And I got him a Nylabone, but he didn't care for it much. He loves the Kong toys though, especially the treats. I got him some balls and other things, as well.
> 
> I saw the mom and dad. They had great temperaments, but couldn't be more different. Dad was calm and would come out and sniff you a little and lick you, then sit right next to you while you petted him to your heart's delight. Mom was super-friendly and high energy, and would jump up on you if not restrained. Needless to say, I prefered the calm demeanor of Dad, but I kept in mind that Aladdin could turn out like his mother. Either way, they were friendly dogs.
> 
> ...


Oh yes, My Old Girl impressed all the good ol' boys at the field trial with her bird skills. I believe Rotties are sort of a good all around breed. Some more then others will show the skills needed for such a thing. Glad to hear both dogs had good temperaments. As I have said I have had Rotties for over 28 years and worked with rescue for a long time also. I have dealt with a LOT of Rotties. It seems the girls tend to be a bit higher drive and the boys more laid back. My 6 month old is a bit of a slug and definitely is a drover. He will walk all day if I ask him to but he only has short bursts of running around like a lunatic. My 3 year old girl would run all day like a Border Collie. She was a fetch a matic and would spend her whole day chasing balls and toys. I sure miss her. I really always preferred the higher drive females but now as I am getting a little older I enjoy the easy going males. I have 2 of them now.


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

That explains it then!

All of the rotties I have met,the males were always so laid back and calm,while the girlies were jumping up and hyper.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

LOL And yet those girls are just so darn lovable. LOL


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

Inga said:


> LOL And yet those girls are just so darn lovable. LOL


Hehe,oh I agree!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

The Angel eyes in my signature could run circles around any dog I knew when she was young. She could do just about anything including scaling my 6 foot fence from a stand still. She was an amazing exhibition dog and would fly up into the grandstands to be loved on by the crowd and then come back to do a few more commands and repeat. My boys on the other hand don't. LOL They also are lovable.


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

Awwwww.I love you siggy.She is beautiful!
I have always loved rotties,since I was really young.They are not the breed for me tho,so I just have to admite other people's,like yours for example!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Believe me Juggalette, I am NOT trying to talk you into getting a Rottweiler but I am just curious as to what it is about them that makes them NOT for you if you appreciate them so much?


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

Inga said:


> Believe me Juggalette, I am NOT trying to talk you into getting a Rottweiler but I am just curious as to what it is about them that makes them NOT for you if you appreciate them so much?


Well they are a strong breed that needs alot of socialization and firm (but not abusive) training.I have been around all kinds of dogs my whole life,so I think I could do it...but I am not sure.And the "not sure" part is what keeps me away from getting the breed.I don't wanna get one and try,but not succeed,as that is not fair to the dog or me.I just don't wanna fail if I had one,you know? I would LOVE to have one,but because of this,they are not a breed for me.

I have had to train/socialize beagles,greyhounds,labs and mutts...but these guys were sensitive and didn't need firm training and picked things up quickly.With a rottie,where they are so strong...I am afraid (not of the breed) that with not the right amount of socialization or training,then I would have a big,strong dominant dog.

EDIT: I just realized that post sounds rather rambly...but you get what I am trying to say,right?


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## spoodles (Apr 6, 2008)

Very cute pup!!! And by the way, my feeling is that if you love this puppy and it's filled your heart with happiness, who cares where you got it from? Is it worth the $300 you paid? Absolutely.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

709Juggalette said:


> Well they are a strong breed that needs alot of socialization and firm (but not abusive) training.I have been around all kinds of dogs my whole life,so I think I could do it...but I am not sure.And the "not sure" part is what keeps me away from getting the breed.I don't wanna get one and try,but not succeed,as that is not fair to the dog or me.I just don't wanna fail if I had one,you know? I would LOVE to have one,but because of this,they are not a breed for me.
> 
> I have had to train/socialize beagles,greyhounds,labs and mutts...but these guys were sensitive and didn't need firm training and picked things up quickly.With a rottie,where they are so strong...I am afraid (not of the breed) that with not the right amount of socialization or training,then I would have a big,strong dominant dog.
> 
> EDIT: I just realized that post sounds rather rambly...but you get what I am trying to say,right?


Actually, rotties from the right breeder are not all that strong a personality and tend to be very social and outgoing with humans. They tend to be kinda 'airheads' when young though and that gives people the impression that they are strong willed. You really just have to find the right motivation (usually chasing a ball or a game of tuggy) to help you train them. ALL dogs need socialization when young to keep them from being fearful (which is the cause of aggression 90% of the time) later in life.


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## 709Juggalette (Feb 21, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Actually, rotties from the right breeder are not all that strong a personality and tend to be very social and outgoing with humans. They tend to be kinda 'airheads' when young though and that gives people the impression that they are strong willed. You really just have to find the right motivation (usually chasing a ball or a game of tuggy) to help you train them. ALL dogs need socialization when young to keep them from being fearful (which is the cause of aggression 90% of the time) later in life.


I never met an aggressive rottie.
They are always friendly and goofy.
But in my understanding,they need firm (not abusive) training.
I have been around dogs of all sizes and breeds my whole life,so I do have experiance.

Last year someone offered us a rottie/shepherd mix and I wouldn't take it,because I didn't know what the parents were like.It was a "planned" litter,but obviously it was people trying to make a buck! 
I didn't take it also because I thought it would need a firm hand,as it would of grown up a strong dog,but also where I didn't know the parents,the pup could of been full of behaviour issues and illness...who knows! The reason the pup was offered to us,was because my boyfriend at the time was friends with the people who had the pups. 

From everything I have read/heard rottweilers need a strong,firm owner and lots of socialization (what dog doesn't tho),but are friendly,loyal and outgoing.They are protective,but shouldn't be HA.And as I have said,I never met a "mean" rottie in public.Or ever for that matter.They are big sweeties. 

I love the breed,they are right up in my top 5! But I really think they are not the breed for my lifestyle,at least not right now.Maybe somewhere in the far future...I don't know.I do love the breed tho.


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## LucyGoosy (Mar 19, 2008)

> [I am not interested in getting dogs from shelters, I am sorry. Sure, they may be cheap and healthy, but I don't feel like I know enough about where the dog came from. What if it was hurt and I lookd like the person who neglected it? What if it's got emotional distress? Also, I don't know if the shelters train the dogs, and I'm definitely not looking for a dog in the middle of it's life still pooping in the corner. My ignorance of how dogs in shelters really are is why I don't get any from there. Wheras, with all of the people I've gotten dogs from, I've seen the parents, known the breeders or at least people who've bought dogs from the breeder, etc. I don't like shooting in the dark, sorry./QUOTE]
> 
> My last two dogs (now deceased but lived to a ripe old age) were purebred dogs I hand picked and bought from breeders as puppies. They were nice dogs, but I went through the usual puppy raising stuff and did all my training, which was fun but a lot of work. I don't look at the $$ side of my dogs as a primary consideration--I expect to have to shell out money to support my pet(s). I just wanted a nice dog and thought it would be best to go the purebred-from-a-breeder route to get that dog.
> 
> ...


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

The words firm training and strong personalities could be accurate but I sure do not want to give off the wrong impression to anyone that might be reading this so I would like to add. Firm training simply means taking my dogs to dog class (even though I have trained hundred or more dogs) I take them so they learn to follow commands around other dogs and distractions. I like them to be social enough to at the very least work around groups of dogs and people. Most of mine have gone further and played wiggle butt friendly to everyone else involved in the classes. Some were outgoing friendly more then others but I got my dogs from all kinds of abusive/neglectful backgrounds. I don't think they are HARD to train, just that you have to stay on top of it. when you give them a command you need to follow through. I do not use "hard hand tactics" as I have found they are not as effective as positive training. Treat and praise reward. Treat might be a moment of play with a squeaker toy or tug on a rope, or food reward. I do practice NILIF in my home. My dogs are loved and spoiled with soft place to sleep, coats to wear when it is to cold outside, good quality food and love and attention. They are NOT spoiled to the point of following my rules are optional. I think the perfect home for a Rottweiler is someone that wants to spend a lot of time with their dog, intends to take their dog out into the public and socialize him/her from the moment they are up to date on vaccinations. They want to take their dog to obedience classes and continue their training for more then one session. This breed loves to have a job. My one dogs job was to take out the dirty diaper bag, and run individual diapers and drop them into the diaper pail. She also would run out and get the newspaper. Other dogs have other jobs. I find something they enjoy and that gets to be their job. I train my dogs all the time. At home training is fun for them. Fetch a ball, get fed, long sits, and downs, lots of praise and rewards. They just love to work. not sit around being ignored. These are Velcro dogs to say the least. typically what ever room I am in my dogs are in as well. They just need a responsible owner that likes to socialize and train, not a tough person. Lord knows I am not tough. The breed fits me perfectly but I am very attentive to my dogs and have made a large commitment to them as they have to me.

LoosyGoosy, I just had to add. I am so glad that you had such a positive experience in the shelter. I too have saved many many Rottweilers from shelters and other abusive/neglectful backgrounds. I have NEVER once been sorry. I loved all of my dogs and with a little work (same thing I would put into a pup from a breeder) I had a perfect dog at the end of the day. The way I look at it is, if something horrible happened and my dog was lost and someone took him a few states away without my knowledge and dumped him into a shelter. Does that make him a bad dog? NO he is great and would be great for any other people that were willing to give him a chance. Sad thing is, very few people want to give a Rottie in a shelter or rescue a second chance. I am so glad that you chose to save a life and that it is working out so well. I agree that rescue dogs spend the rest of their lives saying "Thank you" VS my puppy from a breeder that has a bad feeling of entitlement. LOL


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