# Raw feeding dogs, first time problems!



## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

I started feedin my dogs a raw diet because my 1 year old pit bull is very underweight, he is 23lbs and his ribs show. He always has digestion probs like things irritating him and giving him loose stool and diarrhea. I think he is allergic to wheat or maybe has celiac disease. Our other dog Blanco is chow/pit mix 3 years old and he has always been great on reg kibble. Well I heard about raw food from people on this forum and researched it further and it sounds good and very healthy for both the dogs.

I started with chicken and fed them that( leg quarters, legs) for 2 days. They seemed to be doing very well and really liked it. So I wanted to incoorperate some veggies because they both love em. I read that dogs can not really break them down so they need to be cut up or in the food processor. So I added carrots and peppers into my bfs blender which sucks so I had to add a lot of water; it turned into a orange carrot slop thing, it looked gross. Well they loved it lol, but then the started getting diarrhea, and Blanco NEVER gets diarrhea and he looked like he felt sick. At Blancos next meal he didnt want the chicken, but I gave him a hand full of kibble and he ate it. So I got scared and weve been giving them kibble for the past two days. I feel like I messed up and I should have just gave them straight chicken and not tried to play around with anything fancy, but they both eat carrots and peppers all the time. So I guess it was the combo of a new food and maybe all the water that I mixed that sat funny with them, I don't know. They are both okay now and back to solid poop so should I continue?

I know Iggy absolutely loves the chicken, but Blanco I'm not so sure, I mean he eats it, but maybe he doesn't really love it he doesnt act that excited and he is usually a wild man with food. So I don't know if he is just kinda confused or what and maybe I traumatized him with the veggie slop and he thinks it is the evil chicken that did it. 

Anyways, suggestions, experiences, etc????


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Dogs do not need plant products so I would stick with the chicken for a while, by itself. And I always encourage new raw feeders to purchase whole chickens so that you are feeding closer to an entire animal (prey model) as each part of the animal has different nutrients to offer. Dark meat, white meat, thicker bones, thinner bones all have something to offer. Variety is the key to raw feeding in an effort to cover all of the micronutrients, etc. Since you are just starting out I would stick with chicken, but use all the different parts of the chicken.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

i think it sounds like you just might have started with too much too fast. i don't feed raw (yet) but i've heard that when making the transition there isn't enough fiber or something right away and it can cause loose stool anyway, and i think this along with the veggies could have loosened their stools.

If Blanco seems like he really doesn't like it, and he has no allergies to, or digestive problems with kibble, i would suggest feeding Blanco kibble and Iggy raw. Just watch them during feeding time to make sure they aren't scarfing on each other's foods. It's possible if you start feeding Iggy raw again he could have a loose stool for a week or so, but the more bone you feed should help firm it up, and i would stick to just chicken (with bones) for a week or two before you try giving him a different type of meat or any organs. 

hope this helps.


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

I would just stick to straight up chicken for the full two weeks. 

Why blend and puree veggies? The dogs will be getting all they need from the raw meat, bones and organs. If it is so unnatural for them to eat that it needs to be pureed before they can utilize it, I think it's best to simply avoid feeding.

If you want to give carrots as a treat, simply pull one out of the fridge and hand them to the dog. They aren't going to hurt them... they'll simply pass right on through. 

I'm not so sure about peppers... I think those have the potential to cause some serious stomach upset. Dogs were not made to eat spicy food.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

briteday said:


> Dogs do not need plant products so I would stick with the chicken for a while, by itself. And I always encourage new raw feeders to purchase whole chickens so that you are feeding closer to an entire animal (prey model) as each part of the animal has different nutrients to offer. Dark meat, white meat, thicker bones, thinner bones all have something to offer. Variety is the key to raw feeding in an effort to cover all of the micronutrients, etc. Since you are just starting out I would stick with chicken, but use all the different parts of the chicken.


Yea thats a good idea, I can get the butcher to cut it though right? Because it is really hard for me to cut. Unless eventually I can buy a special knife or scissor or something.



DJEtzel said:


> i think it sounds like you just might have started with too much too fast. i don't feed raw (yet) but i've heard that when making the transition there isn't enough fiber or something right away and it can cause loose stool anyway, and i think this along with the veggies could have loosened their stools.
> 
> If Blanco seems like he really doesn't like it, and he has no allergies to, or digestive problems with kibble, i would suggest feeding Blanco kibble and Iggy raw. Just watch them during feeding time to make sure they aren't scarfing on each other's foods. It's possible if you start feeding Iggy raw again he could have a loose stool for a week or so, but the more bone you feed should help firm it up, and i would stick to just chicken (with bones) for a week or two before you try giving him a different type of meat or any organs.
> 
> hope this helps.


Ya Im not sure what I am going to do with Blanco yet, maybe he likes different meats better and when I transition from chicken to beef or other things he might love it so who knows. Also, I read that it is better to go cold turkey just straight to raw thats why I did it that way.



nikelodeon79 said:


> I would just stick to straight up chicken for the full two weeks.
> 
> Why blend and puree veggies? The dogs will be getting all they need from the raw meat, bones and organs. If it is so unnatural for them to eat that it needs to be pureed before they can utilize it, I think it's best to simply avoid feeding.
> 
> ...


LOL! Not spicy peppers! I gave then bell peppers you know the ones that come in red, green, yellow, the sweet ones haha that would be so mean to give them hot peppers. Blanco would prob not eat them and make his yuck face( which is hilarious) Iggy on the other hand would totally eat a hot pepper and then be coughing up a storm.

Ya I just kinda did it to offer some variety and they were acting hungry, but I think it was just because they were eating the meat so fast and because they like it so they were looking for more. 

I will stick to only chicken for now, but if they do get diarrhea again what should I do? Would feeding them some plain cooked rice be ok just to stop the diarrhea?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

the only reason the diarrhea is happening is basically because they aren't getting same amount of the matter that makes their poop firm anymore. the kibble has a lot of this in it, and the bone is what does this in meat, but because it's not quite as much as they're used to, the diarrhea will come for a while and is completely natural and will go away once they get used to the chicken and bone. that's why it's best to stick to one meat for the first two weeks, and it's usually chicken because chicken has the most bone content to try to keep the poop firm.


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## SupaSweet777 (Aug 22, 2009)

When I switched jhazmyn I was told she had the runs because she was "detoxing" from all the junk in the dog food. She was also dealing with a bad case of systemic yeast. Hers went away after she was used to being on raw. She also poops A LOT less then she did.....maybe once a day and not even a big pile for as big as she is.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> the only reason the diarrhea is happening is basically because they aren't getting same amount of the matter that makes their poop firm anymore. the kibble has a lot of this in it, and the bone is what does this in meat, but because it's not quite as much as they're used to, the diarrhea will come for a while and is completely natural and will go away once they get used to the chicken and bone. that's why it's best to stick to one meat for the first two weeks, and it's usually chicken because chicken has the most bone content to try to keep the poop firm.


Also chicken is the most "all around" food you can give them as far as nutrients go...not too high in any one thing, and also has almost everything they need in it. 



SupaSweet777 said:


> When I switched jhazmyn I was told she had the runs because she was "detoxing" from all the junk in the dog food. She was also dealing with a bad case of systemic yeast. Hers went away after she was used to being on raw. She also poops A LOT less then she did.....maybe once a day and not even a big pile for as big as she is.


yup 

If you are concerned with giving them the stuff they need from veggies or fruits, just feed the right proportion of liver and other organs each week. Liver has more benefits than veggies and fruits, starting with how much easier it is for them to digest. 

This is my favorite calculator for figuring out how much they need of what:
http://www.netrophic.com/misc/NewPersonalDogFeedingGuide.xls


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## chrisn6104 (Jun 8, 2009)

Kim201 said:


> Yea thats a good idea, I can get the butcher to cut it though right? Because it is really hard for me to cut. Unless eventually I can buy a special knife or scissor or something.


Go to the hardware store and get a hacksaw. Get on with a handle and a blade long enough. I use one and cut up 20lbs turkeys this way. Have not found anything I cant cut thru. I usually saw whole frozen chickens in half this way. 

Yeah and ditch the veggies. Found out all they did was give my dogs bad gas..... house clearing bad. No more veggies no more farts.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

What feeding plan were you planning to follow with your raw diet? It is important to have a plan to follow, and not be haphazard about it. You must have meat, bones, and organ meat in the proper proportions. The extras such as whole grains, dairy, eggs, vegetables, and fruits, are trimmings to be added to the mainstay of the diet.

A good site to learn about raw food diets is http://www.rawlearning.com

I would recommend that if/when you start back again, that you start your dogs on digestive support several days beforehand.

Many dogs fed a commercial diet are lacking in the digestive enzymes and bacteria that are necessary to deal properly with a raw food diet.

I use a supplement from Nature's Farmacy with my dogs.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Yes I will read that site, I read a lot of different places but still learning so im just unsure I dont want them to be sick. I have given them a egg ( read one a week is good) and they loved that too especially Igg he was crunching away at the shell. 

I read supplements arent really needed thats why I didn't mess with any of that. Also, do you add in the organs during the first week. I thought it was just straight chicken with the bones for the first few weeks.

****Iggy had blood in his poop though, a lot of blood yesterday. Is that just from maybe the bone or something like that? That def scared me more than diarrhea...


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

You are not prepared to feed your dogs a raw diet. Please read the entire site I posted, and go to Yahoo and join one or more of the raw feeding lists. These lists are very helpful, and there are many experienced raw feeders there who will help newbies.

IMO supplements ARE needed, esp with folks like you who are just starting out.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> You are not prepared to feed your dogs a raw diet. Please read the entire site I posted, and go to Yahoo and join one or more of the raw feeding lists. These lists are very helpful, and there are many experienced raw feeders there who will help newbies.
> 
> IMO supplements ARE needed, esp with folks like you who are just starting out.


This " The myths of feeding supplements. Quick tip - don't waste your money!" is the first title I read in the site you gave me...

and I just realized when I went back to the site I was reading before it is the same site ( in a different setup/ or just the FAQ section) by the same woman Jane Anderson and thats the whole idea of why I thought not to give them supplements.
"Ah... to supplement or not to supplement! Well there are some people out there and pharmaceutical companies making a load of money off gullible people! In almost every single case, the feeding of supplements is a complete waste of time and money. 
If you really do have spare money, donate it to me! 

Don't fall into the trap of feeding supplements "just in case". If you feed your dog/cat a variety of raw meaty bones/carcasses, then you're dog has the best platform upon which to base their health. 

Just remember - NEVER EVER FEED KIBBLE!"


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## chrisn6104 (Jun 8, 2009)

Just my opinion. Supplements are useless for house dogs. Have never used supplements for my dogs or myself and never will. Dogs should be able to get everything they need from food. I would only use supplements if they where involved in some sort of extreme sport where the extra boost might help (like mushing the iditarod). 

I did whole chickens for a few weeks when I started. That includes the guts they came with. Later moving on to other meats. The only meat my dogs had a harder time with at first was fish. Now they eat it just fine. 

Everything here is just an opinion, best to do your own research and figure out what works best for you and your dog.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

chrisn6104 said:


> Just my opinion. Supplements are useless for house dogs. Have never used supplements for my dogs or myself and never will. Dogs should be able to get everything they need from food. I would only use supplements if they where involved in some sort of extreme sport where the extra boost might help (like mushing the iditarod).
> 
> I did whole chickens for a few weeks when I started. That includes the guts they came with. Later moving on to other meats. The only one that my dogs had a harder time with at first was fish. Now they eat it just fine.
> 
> Everything here is just an opinion, best to do your own research and figure out what works best for you and your dog.



Thank you, I agree. I mean I may not have experience, but I know how to read and understand and basically the main thesis of all the sites and people I have read things from is " your dog would be eating like this in the wild" so, they wouldn't need supplements in the wild either. I'm just going to do the whole chicken thing, maybe save the organs until the second week because they are rich.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

You can leave the organs out for a bit...usually chicken leg quarters and chicken backs have a bit of organ meat in them, and that should be fine. I started the raw diet last summer and it was about 2 months before I really started them with any organ meat because before than it just made their deposits really runny. Just gotta watch your dogs and see how quickly they adapt to what you are giving them. If they seem to be all settled for a few days in a row, you can try one new thing and immediately feed the "old" thing again and see how well they do. Most people that were helping me said to only do chicken for 2 weeks straight and then go from there. That helps them flush out all the kibble and what not and gets them prepared for a steady diet of raw. After two weeks of chicken I gave them one meal of pork neck followed by three meals of chicken. No problems with that, so I got to keep that in the diet once or twice a week. Then the next week I tried one meal of turkey neck, followed by three meals of chicken....and so on. For the organ meat, I mostly buy liver treats because I know I don't give the "correct" amount. I give them whatever organ meat I have available, right now I have chicken giblets and they each get a package or two a week. Next time I order, I'm going to get beef liver. Over the summer they had/will have a lot of lamb organs (the family saves it everytime we go to parties, they think its funny that the dogs get raw food so when they prepare the lamb they put aside all the stuff people won't eat, like the organs, tongue, and feet....mmmm, I can't wait for easter, lol). Plus I'll roast a duck once a month or so, and they get the giblets from that. I think the coolest part of doing this diet is that nothing gets wasted anymore. If we have meat thats a few days past its date, instead of tossing it, the dogs get it. Or people have old freezer burned meat they want to get rid of, give it to the dogs...I like not throwing out food when I dont' have to.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Lol ya, def! You should have seen me in the supermarket, im screaming to my boyfriend down at the other end " look at this! Pig feet only a dollar! Wheres the cows tongue!!!? Look at this stomach!!!!" Lol people probably thought I was insane. Ya thats what I was going to do just 2 weeks of chicken, the leg quarters are easy because they weigh in well. I was also going to get a whole chicken. When you say one meal of ___ and three of chicken do you mean 4 meals or just 2 full meals but 4 "portions" or meals? 

The measurements are tricky to me as far as percentages of organ, bone, meat. I mean, I am bad at math so I don't really get how to split up, but I will figure it out when the time comes and as I keep reading. 

Im kinda confused about that spread sheet you gave me which looks SO helpful thanks , but I put in his ideal weight, which I made 135 lbs and it came out to 2.03 lbs for only 1.5%, so I want Iggy to gain, and 3% is 4 lbs?! Is that too much? Maybe I should start off less and increase at maybe about 2% which is 2.7? And about the nutrient requirements, I take the value from the blue box which I would use 140 I guess as young adult active and put it in the red "Intake" section of the yellow box?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I would feed 2% of his ideal weight. 3% might make him gain too quickly or cause loose bowel movements. Don't worry about the minerals and all that until they are good on plain chicken. 

I supplement as Max only gets 1.6% of his body weight and he isn't getting enough of some of the minerals needed according to NRC recommendations - magnesium, managanese and zinc especially. Dogs fed higher percentages aren't going to have that problem. Vitamins are definitely not a problem except for E. And I feed fish oil as I am not offering much fish, grass fed meat or brain.

I do fine breaking up chickens but turkey was much tougher. I finally washed up a garden pruner and that did the trick. If they weren't enough I also have loppers in the shed! Try to cut into pieces at the joints, much easier.

Blood in the stool is irritation of the colon. Very scary and Max only had a small drop when he started. To my surprise getting rid of it meant more bone not less. The intestines are used to a certain amount of bulk going through and bone is the bulk in raw feeding. In Max's situation bone was not irritating his bowel, lack of bulk was.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Ya I was thinking it was the bone poking him or something... who knows, his digestive system is so wacky I have no clue, my poor Iggy piggy. I plan on getting a whole mix of things in there and def fish and once they are on a steady diet and I get everything worked out and see what they like I will add supplements if needed.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Kim201 said:


> Lol ya, def! You should have seen me in the supermarket, im screaming to my boyfriend down at the other end " look at this! Pig feet only a dollar! Wheres the cows tongue!!!? Look at this stomach!!!!" Lol people probably thought I was insane. Ya thats what I was going to do just 2 weeks of chicken, the leg quarters are easy because they weigh in well. I was also going to get a whole chicken. When you say one meal of ___ and three of chicken do you mean 4 meals or just 2 full meals but 4 "portions" or meals?


Sorry, I didn't clarify that. I split a days worth into two meals. Lupa, who will be about 78lbs or so gets, around 2 lbs a day, so she gets around 15 or 16 ounces (ideally) at each meal. Ami, who weighs about 53lbs when she's at her perfect weight gets about 20 ounces a day, so 10 ounces at each meal. I did three meals between so it was new thing in the morning, old at night, and old the whole next day so that if any stool problems came about, I knew why. 



> The measurements are tricky to me as far as percentages of organ, bone, meat. I mean, I am bad at math so I don't really get how to split up, but I will figure it out when the time comes and as I keep reading.


You'll figure it out better once their stools have firmed up, and you'll know how to adjust. Chicken leg quarters are probably the best I have seen. Chicken neck and turkey neck seem to be really good too (at least the ones I have access to), pork neck is on the boney side so I usually give them beef heart with it. 



> Im kinda confused about that spread sheet you gave me which looks SO helpful thanks , but I put in his ideal weight, which I made 135 lbs and it came out to 2.03 lbs for only 1.5%, so I want Iggy to gain, and 3% is 4 lbs?! Is that too much? Maybe I should start off less and increase at maybe about 2% which is 2.7? And about the nutrient requirements, I take the value from the blue box which I would use 140 I guess as young adult active and put it in the red "Intake" section of the yellow box?


Typically, the "maintaining" weight percent is 2.5% depending on how active your dog is. That percent is right. I, personally, would start at the 2.5% and then see how you dog weighs in a month. Take a "starting" weight, and weigh once a week. At the end of a month, you should have an idea as to how he's doing....is he gaining? maintaining? losing? And go from there. 

Usually people split meals if their dogs get a lot. Sometimes I split Ami's meals, sometimes not...depending on what they are getting, but Lupa's is almost always split.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

Kim201 said:


> This " The myths of feeding supplements. Quick tip - don't waste your money!" is the first title I read in the site you gave me...
> 
> and I just realized when I went back to the site I was reading before it is the same site ( in a different setup/ or just the FAQ section) by the same woman Jane Anderson and thats the whole idea of why I thought not to give them supplements.
> "Ah... to supplement or not to supplement! Well there are some people out there and pharmaceutical companies making a load of money off gullible people! In almost every single case, the feeding of supplements is a complete waste of time and money.
> ...


Kim, I have been a raw feeder since 1993. I have bred litters, shown dogs, and conditioned dogs for athletic sports. I have fed dogs from birth to past age 12 an exclusively raw diet.

The supplements I find most necessary for my dogs are the Digestive Enhancers, the bone and joint support, and the mineral balancer that I use when I feed meat without bone or eggs.

They could probably get along just fine without the vitamin supplement I use, however, they have done incredibly well on this supplement regimen for me.

While I feed raw all the time, I have in the past occasionally used some high quality kibble in certain circumstances. Dry kibble is very concentrated, and at times it can be used to benefit even in dogs who are mainly fed a raw diet.

I wish you good luck in your journey learning about raw feeding your dogs. It has been one of the single best things I ever did for mine.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Northern, ya I am just going to see how they do and go from there as far as moving up on percentages, and I will def feed them 2 meals because I think it would be too much for Iggy at one time at least for now.

Redyre, I believe you that supplements are good, but I just don't want to mess around with too many things at one time especially since I am just learning. Chicken for 2 weeks seems pretty straight forward and then adding in the other meats/ organ. I plan on feeding them eggs and def bone, but if they need supplements after I figured that stuff out ill def add them in, I just want to see how they do first and then see if other things are necessary. Thanks, I def have high hopes for raw feeding especially with my lil Igg.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

I would urge you once more not to set yourself up for failure. I strongly suggest you get a digestive support supplement of some sort for your dogs and put them on it several days before you intend to start raw.

I have started/switched numerous dogs from kibble to raw.

I give digestive support for at least 3 days prior. Then I fast the dog for 24 hours and start them on raw. In the beginning I give grains (brown rice, oatmeal, whole grain pastas), eggs, dairy, and SOME raw. Most of the time I like to start dogs out on ground meat, and them move to RMBs, usually chicken.

You do as you like, it's clear you will anyway, but I am speaking from a pretty good body of experience feeding a variety of ages of dogs raw.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

i definitely don't recommend feeding supplements before or even during the beginning of feeding raw. it's way to much for them to have to adjust to at once and it's not neccessary. feeding chicken for two weeks will be perfect. then you can start adding in supplements and eggs, grains, etc as you like.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> i definitely don't recommend feeding supplements before or even during the beginning of feeding raw. it's way to much for them to have to adjust to at once and it's not neccessary. feeding chicken for two weeks will be perfect. then you can start adding in supplements and eggs, grains, etc as you like.


I agree. I think its best to add everything seperatly so that you can make note of any negative reactions and know what they are reacting to. As far as supplements long term, I think that should be based on the variety of meat you have access to. Dogs obtain different levels of minerals from differnent types of organs as while as different. For instances chicken meat ias a different nutritional make up then pork, beef, or venison.. And kidneys will over diffenent nutrients than liver, spleen, or brain.

You need to add as much diversity as possbile in order for your dog to have a well rounded access to all nutrients. If you are unable to do this than a mineral supplement very well helpfull. B, C. and D vitamins have been know to be usefull as well in different raw diets. But all of this will depend on your actual diet plan, and what gaps if any need to be filled in.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

ALL meat fed without bone needs to be balanced with a mineral supplement.

Meat is high in phosphorus. Without the balancing minerals, either in actual bone, or from a supplement, you run the risk of upsetting the Ca/Ph balance in the dog's bloodstream, which can be DISASTROUS to the health of the dog, particularly over the long term.

Diets too high in phosphorus without the balancing effects of Calcium and to a lesser degree Magnesium can accelerate any underlying kidney disease, and may cause skeletal defects in growing puppies.

Trying to feed a home constructed diet, raw or cooked, without the proper education and mineral balance is playing with fire.

IMO this is one of the MAIN REASONS so many vets are against anyone making home prepared diets for their pets.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Redyre are you basically saying that a dog needs bone with every meal? Or that you can't feed any kind of boneless meat without supplementing calcium. 

For instance, if I fed a chicken back, some beef heart, and liver, do you feel there is a need to supplement?


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

RedyreRottweilers said:


> ALL meat fed without bone needs to be balanced with a mineral supplement.
> 
> Meat is high in phosphorus. Without the balancing minerals, either in actual bone, or from a supplement, you run the risk of upsetting the Ca/Ph balance in the dog's bloodstream, which can be DISASTROUS to the health of the dog, particularly over the long term.



I don't really agree with all sorts of supplements, but I agree with this. I think supplements should be used on an individual basis depending on needs. My husky who, in the past, frequently had urinary problems now gets a cranberry tablet every once in a while. When other dogs at the dog park start getting colds, or whatnot, I give mine multivitamins to boost their immune system. If one has been on antibiotics, I give them a little bit of yogurt to help keep the "good" bacteria in their tummies thriving. 

They do need the correct bone to meat ratio for every meal, but if you...say...have a meal thats really high in bone and low in meat, the next meal can balance it out by being a little low on bone and higher on meat. 

Is this what you are getting at Redyr? I might have missed where they said they would be feeding too much meat. 

I'm going to dig though some of my old posts, I know that I put up (on one of my forums) books that I had read when I started raw.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Northern_Inuit_Luv said:


> They do need the correct bone to meat ratio for every meal, but if you...say...have a meal thats really high in bone and low in meat, the next meal can balance it out by being a little low on bone and higher on meat.
> 
> Is this what you are getting at Redyr? I might have missed where they said they would be feeding too much meat.


This is pretty much what I do. And I do believe that an adult dog can handle *minor* differences in their calcium and phosphorous levels as long as it is balanced over time. But that would be a completely different situation with a puppy. But what I tend to see is a person feeding too much bone, and that is what upsets the Ca ratio. BARF diets recommend around 30% bone in most cases and that is entirely too much calcium for either an adult or a growing dog.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Ok, lets start here. 

What are the desired weights you want both of your dogs to be at? 

Most people say between 2-3% of the body weight should be fed to maintain or support a healthy, active, adult dog. If your dog needs to gain weight, you need to feed more. Possibly 3.5%-4%. So figure out what both dogs SHOULD weigh ideally. Then multiply that by either the maintining percentage or the gaining percentage. 

You need to stick with one protein source for at least a week, if not two. Chicken is easiest and most available for most people. Do not switch to a new protein source UNTIL the dogs have adjusted and are having firm, solid poops. Then, add another protein. Same thing, they need to be fully adjusted to the new protein before you add another one. 

Adding supplements is up to you. I personally do not give any supplements other than a probiotic every morning. Dogs are carnivores therefore they do not NEED vegetables to survive. Yes, they can have them and digest them, but nutritionally they don't do much . Take a look inside your dogs mouth. What kind of teeth do you see? Sharp, pointed teeth. Not flat molars. A dogs jaw also does not move side to side like an omnivore or herbivore would, which is used for grinding down and liquifying plant matter. The sharp, pointed teeth are used for ripping & shredding their prey. 

I would also advise against feeding ANY type of pepper. Regardless of the amount of spice, they still have a zing to them and dogs are not used to that type of food. 

Also, keep in mind the percentages are meant for a daily feeding. So lets say your dog weighs 50 lbs. 3% of 50 is 1.5 lbs of food per day. So divide that by the amount of times you feed per day. If you feed twice a day, that would be .75 lbs per meal. 

PM me if you have any questions. Good luck!


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

I didn't read through the whole thread, but thought I would just add my (useless) two cents

Harleigh eats raw on weekends. Only. For every other day and meal she eats Healthwise Chicken and Oatmeal kibble, which we just switched over to from Chicken Soup. I would like to eventually switch her completely over to raw, but I know 1) I haven't gathered enough knowledge to do it and 2) I'm still reading a gazillion books and websites.

Oh.. I also do prepackaged raw for right now. I might eventually give her chicken quarters or something, but for right now... just prepackaged for us

This is what Harleigh had for dinner last night.








Looks yummy, right?! LOL

That's Nature's Variety Chicken Medallions, Raw Egg, Carrots, Yogurt and couple squirts of Salmon Oil. The Salmon Oil is a supplement she always gets, even with her kibble. It helps with her skin and coat, among other things.


Good luck!!! Hope you get it all figured out!!


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## nikkiluvsu15 (Jun 18, 2009)

Whoa!! Random.. I know.

Kelley?! I didn't know you had an account here too!!!!!!!!!! LOL


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Nallah06 said:


> Ok, lets start here.
> 
> What are the desired weights you want both of your dogs to be at?
> 
> ...


Can I give them yogurt as a probiotic or you give a pill?

Blanco is about 67 lbs and he is perfect weight for him, very fit and healthy. Iggy is way too skinny he is only 23 lbs, but he has muscle so I think Ideally about 35lbs for him. So I will give Iggy about 3.5 % , at least to start and increase if he is doing well, I don't want to gourge him with too much at first lol. Northern gave me a calculator in excel format that figures everything out, the link is in this thread maybe like a page back if you want to take a look.

I'm not going to give them any veggies except maybe for snack, and I will keep them solid. I think the fact that they were pureed def ran right through them. But guys, bell peppers are NOT hot, AT ALL, they have zero zing! They are sweet peppers, so if anything they are a bit sweet especially the red ones, hasn't anyone ever had them, they are an Italian staple lol?? Plus I have given them these, not hot, peppers before whole and they never had any reaction I think it was just the combo of them being so liquified, too much water mixed in, plus I just introduced the chicken so their tummies were still getting used to that. Regardless, like I said I will just stick to very cut and dry for now. 


Since I mentioned about the diarrhea and blood in the poop ( which was only that one time thankfully) I kept them on kibble, but monday, I am putting them back on the raw chicken. I have leg quarters for now, but that will only last about a day so ill go to the store and get a whole chicken after that. 

So, do you all think I should go cold turkey straight to chicken everyday or alternate or what? I read it was good to go cold turkey, but just wanted some opinions. Wish me luck!!!


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

I switched all of my dogs cold turkey each time, as each dog came to us at different times. You can choose to give a digestive supplement or plain live culture yogurt or nothing at all. I didn't use anything and my dogs had a few loose stools here and there, nothing to write home about. If you choose to use nothing just be prepared for hershey squirts. If it gets out of hand you can stay on the raw chicken and throw in the digestive supplements. My opinion on supplements is that they are incredibly expensive and my dogs didn't have a big problem. 

And as far as vitamins and minerals. I haven't read the book by Monica Segal yet but can't wait to do so. As a biochemist I try to balance everything in the diet properly. I'm pretty sure I've been successful because my dogs only see the vet yearly for wellness checks and with easy access to bloodwork I run them every 6 months and they are incredibly normal. My plan (after your dog is acclimated to chicken, 4-6 weeks without balance isn't going to hurt but you could add a multivitamin in the meanwhile since he is a puppy, I have a neighbor that has used Missing Link with her raw fed puppies) once they are acclimated is an overall organ as 10% of the diet with liver being 1/2 of all organs. I only feed organs at one meal per day (AM feeding). You can portion out the organs and liver when you buy it into little containers or cheap baggies so you can pull them out as needed for a meal. Liver is important because it is a good source of vitamins A & D. And for the other organs I try to rotate among as much variety as I can get without upsetting their digestive systems. I found, for example, that my crew starts to have diarrhea if they even smell lamb organs. Lamb meat is fine with them, but one of them in particular gets explosive diarrhea from lamb organs. So you may run across things as you introduce them over time. 

My overall meal plan is something like this:
AM meal...always chicken and 20% organs (remember, I only feed organs at one meal)
PM meals for the week: 1 heart (high in taurine, a really good thing we are finding out)
1-2 fish, depends on what I have or when I go fishing
4-5 whatever meat I got on sale and put in the freezer

If I find a good source for boneless cuts... I buy it, portion, and freeze. I try to limit boneless to no more than 2 meals per week, of which one is already heart. And even then I supplement for the calcium by adding 1/2 teaspoon of very finely ground eggshells (coffee grinder works great) or 2 tums per 1 pound of meat. 

I throw in other things for variety such as plain yogurt, an egg, fish oil...but I do it sparingly so as not to disrupt the balance overall.


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## tonisaysss (Jan 18, 2010)

In my opinion, I would not have switched cold turkey with a dog so severely underweight -- if anything, it may cause him more problems with dehydration from diarrhea, etc. I know raw diets work GREAT from some people, but I'm an advocate of "if nothing is broke, don't change it!"

I would suggest Satin Balls for your Pitbull. It greatly helps with fast weight gain:
http://www.holisticdog.org/Nutrition/Satinballs/satinballs.html


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Hi Nikki! (sorry for the random high jack)

Anyways back to topic.

Why don't you do it this way. You ideally want Iggy at 35 lbs. So feed 2 % of his ideal weight, which would be .7 lbs a day. And you say that Blanco is 67 and perfect, so he would need 1.34 lbs at 2%.

Yogurt can be used as a probiotic, but I find that the probiotic pills work much better. Theres WAY more of the good bacteria packed into one of those pills than in the yogurt. I can get over 200 probiotic pills for less than $25. And you'd probably spend more on the amount of yogurt you'd need to give them. I give each dog one probiotic each morning with their breakfast. 

I know bell peppers are not hot or spicy to humans, but they're still a pepper and I personally would never feed them. Pureed or not. 

Hows the switch going? Sorry I didnt get a chance to check back in. I have always added raw in cold turkey, but as of now, neither of them is 100% raw either. Looking to start that in the next month or so. And then, I will go cold turkey.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Where do you get your probiotic pills?


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

Good question.....let me see if I can find the website. BRB


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

www.vitaminlife.com

I get the Jarrow Formulas "Jarro-Dophilus+FOS"

3.4 billion probiotic bacteria per capsule. One bottle comes with 200 pills, and last time I paid $25.52 including shipping.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Northern_Inuit_Luv said:


> Where do you get your probiotic pills?


http://www.preciouspets.org/natursway/

Check out this site. I have always had good luck with their probitics. And I tend to prefer ones that must be refrigerated, as that gives you fresher bacteria. Plus they are forumlated for pets.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

This may be a silly question, but if its refrigerated, will it go bad?


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

briteday said:


> My overall meal plan is something like this:
> AM meal...always chicken and 20% organs (remember, I only feed organs at one meal)
> PM meals for the week: 1 heart (high in taurine, a really good thing we are finding out)
> 1-2 fish, depends on what I have or when I go fishing
> ...


Thanks a lot that was very helpful . What kind of heart do you feed them, beef? They sell packages at this store down the block so ill get to mix and match different meats and organs once I figure out what they like. Do you find that they need that extra calcium if you feed boneless or you are just doing it as a precaution? Well they both like egg so maybe on the day I give them boneless I will give them the egg. Also, are things like tongue and stomach, tripe counted as a boneless meat meal not organ right?




tonisaysss said:


> In my opinion, I would not have switched cold turkey with a dog so severely underweight -- if anything, it may cause him more problems with dehydration from diarrhea, etc. I know raw diets work GREAT from some people, but I'm an advocate of "if nothing is broke, don't change it!"
> 
> I would suggest Satin Balls for your Pitbull. It greatly helps with fast weight gain:
> http://www.holisticdog.org/Nutrition/Satinballs/satinballs.html


Lol this is a cool recipe,this something to add to his reg meals right, because it says that she or he rarely feeds it to dogs as a full meal. I'm def going to do this for Iggy, have you tried them out?



Nallah06 said:


> Hi Nikki! (sorry for the random high jack)
> 
> Anyways back to topic.
> 
> ...


When I multiply 135 x 2% i get 2.7, not .7? Thats also what the calculator northern gave me says, but maybe im doing it wrong, im confused now. Either way, this was out first day and I gave Iggy 2.4 lbs so neither or the weights we got lol and Blanco too. I gave them 2 leg quarters each and split the last one between them. Side note, I found a clever so that worked good at cutting it yey, of course I cut myself in the most stupid way when I was picking it up but whatever.. I'll get those pills they sound good, thanks!


Thank you everyone for your help, hopefully this will help my poor lil Igg, I'll check in in a few days and let you all know how it is going  .


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## tonisaysss (Jan 18, 2010)

Kim201 said:


> Lol this is a cool recipe,this something to add to his reg meals right, because it says that she or he rarely feeds it to dogs as a full meal. I'm def going to do this for Iggy, have you tried them out?


i have not used them but i know multiple people who have. it will put weight on the dog in days.

it can be fed alone, with kibble, or as a treat.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

Northern_Inuit_Luv said:


> This may be a silly question, but if its refrigerated, will it go bad?


All live bacteria have a life cycle. Keeping it refrigerated lengthens that cycle. But no matter whether it is a refrigerated probiotic or not it will eventually expire when the bacteria die. 

It won't smell or anything, it just won't work anymore.


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## Nallah06 (Nov 26, 2008)

How much do you want Iggy to ideally weigh? Was it 35 lbs??? 35 x 2% is .7 lbs. Yes, 135 x 2% is 2.7 but I don't think you want him to weigh 135. ????


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

lol omg, see! Thank you, i knew I was doing something wrong, hhahahaha he sure would be a fat little pig!!!! I must have be subconsicously thinking in people weight, thanks..


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Hi, I am back to update! Well Iggy and Blanco have been doing good on their raw diets. I tried to incorporate some veggies but everytime I do Blanco gets really bad diarrhea so I think I should just stick to meat with him. Anyway it has been mostly chicken for them we probably went a good month on chicken and I just introduced pork. We had no more chicken so I gave them pork chops that we had in the freezer. My mom keeps telling me dogs need veggies too, but I didn't believe her until she said even in the wild they eat animals who usually have digested plants and vegetation in their system. That is true so I decided to start giving them cooked carrots, like I said Iggy is good but Blancos tummy gets sensitive. 

SO do they need veggies? And if so do I cook them because I keep reading dogs can't digest raw veggies.

Their meal today was pork chops and Iggy got two cooked carrots and an egg, Blanco got an apple and an egg. Hes never had a problem with apples they are his fav so hopefully he will be ok with that. 

Iggy seems more healthy and he really seems like he is gaining weight so I am really happy . Blanco seems to be enjoying his meals even though he still eats them in 2 bites. I have been scared to give them organs because I don't want them to get diarrhea although I did give it to them once because they both got a whole chicken one day; I will start introducing more organ meat also because I know they need it. 

Hmm, that is about it, tommorrow it is off to the store to get some chicken and also different types of pork. Oh ya, its ok that they ate the pork chop bones right? Any suggestions on good pork dishes for them?

Also, my mom suggested I give them some brown rice sometimes do you think this is a good idea? And any other really beneficial veggie suggestions, I've only given them carrots so far.

Thanks everyone  Im so happy about this diet I feel so good giving them these types of food!!


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## nikelodeon79 (Feb 3, 2009)

No, they don't need veggies. If they like them, and it doesn't upset their tummies, you can give them as a treat.

No, they don't need rice. Some dogs eat socks... doesn't mean they "need" them, LOL.

If you are eventually feeding 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ meat (with 5% of that being raw liver), your dogs are getting everything they need. 

Pork chops are fine.  Mine get them a lot. I've fed pretty much every cut of pork, without issues. I prefer buying whole ribs rather than the cut up kind, as the cut up kind can be sharp. You will want to trim excess fat off of pork because some dogs get pretty gassy on it.

Glad to hear things are going well!


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Lol yes my moms dog eats socks...and tampons  Ya I was wondering about the fat on the ribs. Thanks!

I will probably start experimenting with different veggies I was just reading and it says they can be beneficial and they do like them. They are the most unpicky dogs ever, they truly eat anything I give them. 

The Igg is on my lap right now like a little man I love him <33 just a side note lol

I'll prob get some liver at the store since it is the most important one.

Thanks again!


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

You don't need the veggies as long as you feed the correct organ meat. Liver is the filter for the body, so the animals that eat the grass/veggies/fruit filter all the nutrients out of the food and it is placed in different parts of the body, mostly in the liver but there are other "collecting" zones for different vitamins too (thus the other 5% misc organ they need). As for food in the stomachs...well I read that a lot of time they don't even eat the actual contents. Sometimes bits of it will be stuck on what they eat, but if thats what you want, you can find a Tripe supplier and give them the real thing. Tripe is really good for dogs and it would do exactly what you are wanting.

IF you still want to give veggies/fruit, the best way to prepare it for the dogs is to grind it up really well (as though it had already been partially digested).

Edited to add that they don't need rice. Sometimes if they have an upset tummy and are not having much of an appetite it can help encourage them to eat, but it is not needed in a raw diet. In kibble, it is used as a binding agent/filler, not as something with real nutritional value to the dog.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

If veggies upset the dog don't give them! 

Raw beef liver
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/beef-products/3468/2
Raw carrot
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2383/2
Compare the vitamins and minerals in the two. Liver is a powerhouse, carrot is not.

If you have them made up why not dilute it and freeze for a snack for the dog that tolerates them? 

Max doesn't get veggies but when he eats the meat often gets covered with grass and dirt. Works for him. Yuck.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Yes tripe sounds good thanks northern. It has to be green tripe or something though not regular right? Just curious would the regular kind also be beneficial?

Yes I def have to get some liver kathy. Blancos belly gets upset so I havent given him any carrots but hes fine so far with the apple from last night.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

You can get "cleaned" tripe in a can at some all natrual dog food stores...but its better if you can get the "green" tripe from a supplier. The "bleached" kind that you get at the grocery store is crap and does nothing other than provide something for the dogs to chew on. Cleaned means that its rinsed before its packaged. Green means nothing was done with it before it was packaged.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

O ok, thanks, where can I get the green, I've def never seen it. 

Also, how much in measurement of liver should I be feeding? Iggy gets around .8-1lb of food and Blanco gets 1.5lbs? I just kinda eyeballed it today only gave them a very little bit just so they could get used to it.


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

www.netrophic.com/misc/NewPersonalDogFeedingGuide.xls If you type in the weight it will give you the oz for day and week 

For the green tripe, you'll need to find a supplier for raw dog food. Green tripe is really really bad for people and so its against health code for butchers to sell it.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks so much! Where do u get yours?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneydiet.html#tripe

On the other side of the continent, I have bought it from Greentripe.com. Dogs loved it!


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## Northern_Inuit_Luv (Aug 26, 2009)

Well, I'm not close to you and they probably wouldn't service you. One is My Pet Carnivore http://mypetcarnivore.com/product_list.html, another is a breeder who buys whole cows and knows a butcher well http://vomeisenherz.com/products-prices.html, and a place called Taylor Pond Farms (we don't actually get it from them, but I've heard they have it and sell to this area...they are farther north and don't do regular business down here so it makes them a little unreliable). I have trouble navigating their website, so I'm not going to bother linking it.


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## Kim201 (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks, yes Kathy I used yours it has a few links for NJ


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