# Early signs of a high drive dog



## PatchworkRobot

I didn't know what section to put this in so I thought it would be best in the sport form. I'm looking to get a puppy in the not to distant future and want something with a little more drive and slightly higher biddability than my current dog. While I'll be going through what I consider to be an ethical breeder (not a topic that I want to get into on this particular thread) who I'm sure will be able to pick out the perfect puppy for me I had started wondering what, if any, signs there are early on of a particular puppy being more biddable and drivey than some others. 

Does anybody have anything in particular that they look for?


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## juliemule

This varies by breed, and what type of drive you are looking for. I want high prey... will they chase anything that moves, long after the other pups stop. Take the object (whatever) lets say a rag, tied to a flirt pole (lunge whip), see which pup can't help but chase it first, and shows the greatest interest.
Fight drive, tug with the pup, maintain eye contact, see who lets go and who will hold on daring you to let go. Also watch who is top dog in the litter. 
Hunt drive, throw an object the pup shows interest in, into high grass and see who keeps looking for it. Many dogs loose interest once out of sight. Depending on age, you want the pup who does not stop looking.
I also make a loud noise, maybe by dropping a metal pan, chair, etc. The pup that doesn't startle, is great, one that maybe jumps is ok, but any that run for cover are a no go. Ideally I want the pup that runs to the noise. Show him a large, unfamiliar object, does he back away or want to see it and chew it?
I take the pup out of his comfort zone, see if he follows you, or begins to really whimper. Place him on a slick surface, does he cower or stand up? On a table, is he confident or seem afraid? 
tell the breeder what you want ahead of time, pick your choice, then compare to which pup the breeder chose.


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## Finkie_Mom

I don't have an answer for you, TBH, but don't forget that you can BUILD a dog's drive. I did that with my agility dog, Kimma. She had a bit of drive in her naturally, but she didn't have an interest in like playing tuggy (which is helpful for agility and can be used in other aspects of training). So I built it up to where she will now WORK for tug. Which is HUGE in my book. My boy Pentti came to me with a drive for toys (fetch and tug), so I never had to build it. Otherwise, I would personally go with what the breeder suggests as they will know their pups best.

What are you planning to do with the new pup? Are you getting another Dobe???


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## PatchworkRobot

Thanks for the quick responses guys! I have looked into building drive and it’s something that I’m planning to start with my Doberman this month. The whole thing has led to some interesting reading and videos and I am looking forward to starting. 

I am not looking for another Doberman for a few reasons…
1. While I want a dog that can keep up with Dreizehn's play style I want something a little smaller.
2. I want to train in agility and maybe get into it competitively (though not majorly). I’ve done a bit of light agility training with my boy and he was never too interested. I’m sure this could change with the drive building but it's not something I see him completely enjoying.
3. I want to experience some other breeds.
4. Jurassic Park. I’m actually serious here. While I'm sure any two smart dogs will conspire against me I imagine two Dobermans to be much like the raptors in Jurassic Park.

I’ve considered a bunch of breeds including Border Collies, Pharoah Hounds, Ibizan Hounds, Shelties, Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retrievers, and Canaan Dogs but have decided on a Pembroke Welsh Corgi. What it comes down to is that it fits the traits that I love in dogs and I’ve had a love-affair with the breed since I met my first one when I was 8. I considered them when I was looking to get Dreizehn but I wanted something bigger and more intimidating looking. 

I’m still no less than 6 months from getting a puppy. I’ve started my search early and have talked to plenty of breeders. I have three breeders in mind and what it will come down to is who has a litter with a puppy that fits me (the traits that I’m looking for plus I’d prefer a red/white puppy and it NEEDS to be female due to male/male aggression in dobes). All of these breeders are ones who I would consider to be exceptional and definitely would trust their decision in what pup would be the right fit for me and Dreizehn. However, all of the research I’ve been doing to prepare for a new puppy and breed plus the drive building reading that I’ve been doing has led me to wonder what specific traits drivey puppies would have.


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## juliemule

You can build drives, and increase confidence in dogs. I prefer to start with as close as you can get, then build a relationship and keep building on the foundation. I have seen pups really flourish in the right hands. Good luck with you pup! My sister owned cardigan, she was a neat little dog, or short dog lol. Not really little! The sweetest thing, and so cute. Are you going to herd?


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## DobermanGuy

PatchworkRobot said:


> 4. Jurassic Park. I’m actually serious here. While I'm sure any two smart dogs will conspire against me I imagine two Dobermans to be much like the raptors in Jurassic Park.


Nope. Dobermans listen 10 times better than raptors... 

Wish you the best of luck no matter what you get! :wave:


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## Tofu_pup

I'd love to know the same thing. Most of the drivey-er dogs I've worked with weren't all that drivey until adolescence. It's like a switch flips on. For example, there's an aussie I've been working with since he was a puppy. He was the usual happy go lucky puppy that just wanted to frolic with his doggy friends. He hit eight months old and now all he wants is fetch, fetch, and more fetch. He'd sacrifice his first born for one toss of the ball. 

I've built Kaki's toy/tug drive as much as I think I can. She'll work for it but it's not her world by any stretch of the imagination. However, she is by nature very biddable. So I keep the toys under lock and key so they'll stay novel and she'll continue to work for them/me.


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## PatchworkRobot

juliemule said:


> You can build drives, and increase confidence in dogs. I prefer to start with as close as you can get, then build a relationship and keep building on the foundation. I have seen pups really flourish in the right hands. Good luck with you pup! My sister owned cardigan, she was a neat little dog, or short dog lol. Not really little! The sweetest thing, and so cute. Are you going to herd?


Thanks! I would LOVE to try herding but don't know anybody who does it. I've never looked into it actually, I think I will now! It's definitely something that I"ll ask the breeders about as I'm sure they'd know. 




Tofu_pup said:


> Most of the drivey-er dogs I've worked with weren't all that drivey until adolescence. It's like a switch flips on.


This is interesting to me! I've never seen it in any of the dogs I've worked with but I also haven't done much loooong term with dogs so it's not like I've had the chance to see that. Dreizehn is a year and in the terrible-teens stage so perhaps something like that will happen with him. He has started showing more interest in squirrels and will fetch and bring back a ball more often (but by more often I mean 2-3 times instead of not at all).


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## Tofu_pup

PatchworkRobot said:


> Thanks! I would LOVE to try herding but don't know anybody who does it. I've never looked into it actually, I think I will now! It's definitely something that I"ll ask the breeders about as I'm sure they'd know.
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting to me! I've never seen it in any of the dogs I've worked with but I also haven't done much loooong term with dogs so it's not like I've had the chance to see that. Dreizehn is a year and in the terrible-teens stage so perhaps something like that will happen with him. He has started showing more interest in squirrels and will fetch and bring back a ball more often (but by more often I mean 2-3 times instead of not at all).


Yeah, that's a big reason I have reservations about getting a puppy instead adopting an adult dog(not pushing adoption on you). Puppies are such a crap shoot so drive isn't really guaranteed. Hopefully, somebody else will chime in about picking the pup that has drive.


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## PatchworkRobot

Tofu_pup said:


> Yeah, that's a big reason I have reservations about getting a puppy instead adopting an adult dog(not pushing adoption on you). Puppies are such a crap shoot so drive isn't really guaranteed. Hopefully, somebody else will chime in about picking the pup that has drive.


Oh, adoption is something I'm totally going to consider and I'll be looking into the nearby shelters and corgi rescues when the time comes. I'll definitely keep your words in mind too :]


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## Discodobe

I will get some videos of my puppy next week, remind me to send them to you


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## juliemule

Everyone always says pups are a crap shoot, but I don't really think so. If you pick good lines, carefully check out BOTH parents working capabilities, and spend time with thwart litter you can see what you have. The biggest thing is raising the pup. Make it possible for that pup to believe he is the greatest thing ever, really give him confidence and most turn out great. Handlers can really ruin drive in young dogs. Once the pup is confident its hard to near impossible to destroy drives unless the dog is really treated horrible. I don't do much obedience on pups until they are pretty set on their own drive wise. You can build drive to a point; any mule can run, but I wouldn't bet on one at the Derby!


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## LoveCWCs

Opal was drivey from the day I got her. There's always been this innate intensity about her, like she's always thinking. She's also very mentally alert. Nothing gets by her. 

She's always been very motivated by playing and has ALWAYS had this never-say-die attitude when it comes to playing. She would literally play until she dropped when she was little, and I had to learn to look for signs of exhaustion, because she never listened to her own body. 

There may be dogs that kick on at a later age, but I know for a fact that Opal's breeder knew from a very early age that she was a performance prospect. 

Per my mentor who also has GSDs, Opal has what she would consider high drive. If she was larger, we'd be doing schutzhund ;-D 


Building drive into a dog that has no drive is very difficult. First, you have to find out what motivates the dog. 

Luckily for me, Opal is both very food and toy oriented. 

Pemmies are a pretty cool breed! They're very social and more refined looking then cardigans! As one corgi lover to another, please allow me to give you a list of things you should be looking for in a breeder IF you want to do agility/performance: 

1) Drive- Many pembroke breeders actively breed out drive. Not all of them, but many of them find a drivey dog more difficult to deal with. Make sure that if you have any inkling that you want to do performance, that you find a breeder who does performance type things; I would specifically look for someone who does either herding or agility. My mentor does both, and that's why I got Opal from her. 

2) Health issues- Pembrokes have some intense health problems to watch out for. Addisons, degenerative myelopathy, interverterbral disk disease, PRA, hip displasia, elbow displasia, heart murmers, epilepsie etc. are all genetic and all things that can be bred out. 

3) Temperament- Pemmies are more highstrung and social then their Cardigan cousins, but still can be equally as reactive. Lots of pemmie females are same sex aggressive and many just plain don't like other dogs. Not all corgis like strangers. Not saying that you will for sure have to worry bout this, but it is a consideration when getting any corgi of any variety. These guys may be "little" dogs, but they must be very well socialized. I socialized Opal from the day I got her and she still has reactivity issues with some people and some dogs. 

4) Structural issues- Please keep in mind at all times that you're dealing with an achondroplastic breed of dog- ie a dwarf. Corgis of either variety shouldn't be jumping at all (even off the couch or a bed) until they're about 18 months. Growth plate closure issues are very common in these little dogs (more so in Cardigans then in Pembrokes) and starting agility too early can cause serious problems. 

If you really want to do agility, I also would go with a breeder. Yeah, you could get a pembroke in rescue, but the high instance of health issues in BYB dogs and the lack of drive that most corgis show these days was what convinced me to go to a breeder.


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## Keechak

LoveCWCs said:


> 2) Health issues- Pembrokes have some intense health problems to watch out for. Addisons, degenerative myelopathy, interverterbral disk disease, PRA, hip displasia, elbow displasia, heart murmers, epilepsie etc. are all genetic and all things that can be bred out.


Sorry for jumping into the convo JUST to correct but I needed to. Hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia and Epilepsy are all poly genetic and currently there is no way to breed it out cause there are no tests for the genes that cause it. Breeders can only TRY and select against it but there is no guarantees it wont be produced.


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## Poly

Two points that I would like to make.

When trainers refer to "drive" they generally mean the ability to work very hard through fatigue and distractions, and focus totally on the job at hand. Not to mention a close bond with the handler. Dogs with that ability can do really well in competion obedience as well as in SAR, K9, service work, field trials, and other activites that require that type of dog personality. 

Although the dog's breed and breeding line are major factors - and of course a breeder would know that - there is much individuality. Just to give one example, working  dogs are evaluated for multiple "drives": Prey Drive or Chase Response. Activity Drive, Pack Drive, Rank Drive, Subordinate Drive, Play Drive, Survival Drive. They are never evaluated younger than 1 year old. Although this type of evaluation is probably beyond what most dog owners would do, it is significant that prey drive is just one component among many that go into the totality of what "drive" is .

As far as 'building' drive is concerned, I prefer to talk about *developing* drive. Because you really can't build what isn't there, but you can develop what is there.


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## juliemule

What drive are you wanting your dog to have? It can really be simple or as complicated as you want to make it.


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## Tofu_pup

Poly said:


> Two points that I would like to make.
> 
> When trainers refer to "drive" they generally mean the ability to work very hard through fatigue and distractions, and focus totally on the job at hand. Not to mention a close bond with the handler. Dogs with that ability can do really well in competion obedience as well as in SAR, K9, service work, field trials, and other activites that require that type of dog personality.
> 
> Although the dog's breed and breeding line are major factors - and of course a breeder would know that - there is much individuality. Just to give one example, working dogs are evaluated for multiple "drives": Prey Drive or Chase Response. Activity Drive, Pack Drive, Rank Drive, Subordinate Drive, Play Drive, Survival Drive. They are never evaluated younger than 1 year old. Although this type of evalution is probably beyond what most dog owners would do, it is significant that prey drive is just one component among many that go into the totality of what "drive" is .
> 
> As far as 'building' drive is concerned, I prefer to talk about *developing* drive. Becasue you really can't build what isn't there, but you can develop what is there.


All good points especially the last two sentences.


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## Finkie_Mom

Poly said:


> As far as 'building' drive is concerned, I prefer to talk about *developing* drive. Becasue you really can't build what isn't there, but you can develop what is there.


Good point! I suppose my post should replace "build" with "develop." (Though I think we are referring to the same thing, but "develop" makes it way more clear!)


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## LoveCWCs

I know that hip dysplasia and elbow dysplasia are polygenetic. But, what also true is that dogs that have a pedigree for dysplasia are more likely to produce dogs with dysplasia. If you breed two dogs and both have elbow displasia on the same side, then the puppies will have a weakness on that side LIKELY. 

Again, it might be polygenetic, but you can slowly raise the bar to produce healthier dogs. 

I know of one breeder who almost all of her cardigans that have passed their OFA, which is pretty unheard of in my breed. I know of another that has mostly failing with a few outliers.


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## Greater Swiss

hee hee, when I hear about "high drive" I think of this vid : "So you think you want a high drive puppy" 
not doubting at all you could cope, but its a cute video and makes me laugh (and I will watch it if I ever want another puppy!)
Here's a thought for a reasonably high drive dog: A swissy. Yeah, they can be mellow, but as a working breed they've got drive, and nurturing that would go a long way. 
Of course you mention that you don't want a big dog....Caeda is only 60lbs now at almost 11 months. REALLY strong, but compared to some, fairly manageable. If you went the swissy route I would reccomend looking for a sire and dam that are smaller, so hopefully you won't get a 130lb beast. Of course that will likely mean no papers with the puppy since the more professional breeders seem to breed for size...
Just a thought.


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## Gally

I haven't personally done research into picking out a higher drive puppy. What I can tell you though from personal experience is that Pembrokes can be an excellent choice if you want to get into agility. 

Our Pem came from a breeder who focuses on agility with her dogs. He's only 8 months so we haven't formally started agility classes yet but he always excels in his obedience classes and is still happy to work with us even in the middle of the teenage months. I would say he has high drive in the fact that he is very focused during training and can go long stretches without getting distracted. I try to keep his training short but he often wants to do more when I am done.

Our trainer also teaches agility and her best student is a Pem. He jumps higher, runs faster and stays more focused than any of her other students. I am very much looking forward to starting with Galahad as I think he will have a blast.

Early socialization with this breed is so important as CWCs mentioned. You need to introduce them to as many people and other dogs as you can at a young age and continue to keep them socialized. I know several Pems who just didn't get that socialization and are now very dog aggressive and a few that are people shy. 

Sound sensitivity I have found to be an issue with Pem's but I think it's about management and training. Galahad can be very sound sensitive, but I can trace it back to an event in his early puppyhood that I wasn't adequately prepared for at the time. We are working very hard with him to get him over this and I have seen him make leaps and bounds in progress. For a time he would go running in fear from any loud screeching noise. Now he only alerts to it, we treat for him staying calm and we can carry on our walk or whatever we were doing.


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## PatchworkRobot

Greater Swiss said:


> hee hee, when I hear about "high drive" I think of this vid : "So you think you want a high drive puppy"
> not doubting at all you could cope, but its a cute video and makes me laugh (and I will watch it if I ever want another puppy!)


Greater Swiss - That is a ridiculously telling video (and yes, awfully cute). I agree that a high drive dog is not for everybody and I've seen plenty of drivey dobermans lose their homes because the owners got them from working lines simply because they liked the look better. Ridiculous. I never even considered a Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, they intrigue me so I think I'll look into it.

Gally - You really shouldn't be allowed to post unless you include a picture. I mean LOOK AT HIM! He's too cute! I agree that socialization is super important for Pemmies as well as any breed. My doberman went EVERYWHERE with me when he was a puppy (and he still does a couple of times a week) because an undersocialized doberman can be dangerous.


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## Greater Swiss

PatchworkRobot said:


> Greater Swiss - That is a ridiculously telling video (and yes, awfully cute). I agree that a high drive dog is not for everybody and I've seen plenty of drivey dobermans lose their homes because the owners got them from working lines simply because they liked the look better. Ridiculous. I never even considered a Greater Swiss Mountain Dog, they intrigue me so I think I'll look into it.


There's a good resource out there There's a Greater Swiss Forum. I'm not quite sure if Caeda is the best representation of the breed (I suspect a cross breed in there somewhere), but I can say she is super drivey. I'm currently trying to decide what kind of dog sport would be best for her that I have access to (Schutszhund would be perfect, but there are no local resources). I've only met three swissys in person, so others may not be so drivey, and be warned, I have a major oddball, they can get huge! (Bermese are similar dogs, and there are 4-5 month old puppies the same size as Caeda!). I didn't get her from working lines, or from a "reputable breeder" (I'm a first time owner, I'm lucky it has turned out alright!). I had never seen a drivey dog before either....what a struggle to learn to keep up! I'm SURE you'll handle it better no matter what breed!


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## Pawzk9

LoveCWCs said:


> Opal was drivey from the day I got her. There's always been this innate intensity about her, like she's always thinking. She's also very mentally alert. Nothing gets by her.
> 
> She's always been very motivated by playing and has ALWAYS had this never-say-die attitude when it comes to playing. She would literally play until she dropped when she was little, and I had to learn to look for signs of exhaustion, because she never listened to her own body.
> 
> There may be dogs that kick on at a later age, but I know for a fact that Opal's breeder knew from a very early age that she was a performance prospect.
> 
> Per my mentor who also has GSDs, Opal has what she would consider high drive. If she was larger, we'd be doing schutzhund ;-D
> 
> 
> .


This is the same dog who is too soft for obedience and herding???


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## Pawzk9

I'm a bit of a heretic when it comes to drive. I'd rather have a moderate drive dog with good relationship, good motivation and good training. There are jobs which require really over-the-top dogs. But there are many people who are convinced they need high drive, but are really looking for a pet they can live with and enjoy who does sports and training a few times a week. I see a lot of dogs who are described as "high drive" who are simply over-aroused and sometimes out of control. That's not drive, in my definition. And you can have all the drive in the world but unless you also have a dog who is sane enough to listen and think, it won't do you much good.


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## Xeph

> That's not drive, in my definition.


I disagree here. It's definitely drive, but the dog is over threshold. It doesn't stop being drive just because the dog isn't as clearheaded as you (general) would like.

Strauss had a tendency to go into overdrive for agility. Still does sometimes....and he always leaks drive. That will never stop, because of how he is. We had to work on a LOT of impulse control, and we ended up largely successful. He'll always scream, he'll always bark....and I now don't give two craps about it, as long as he holds on the start line.

Strauss is a medium-high drive dog, and I really like that about him. He's not a dog that quits when working. He works long, and he works hard, and then at home, he gets on the couch and crashes.


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## Pawzk9

Xeph said:


> I disagree here. It's definitely drive, but the dog is over threshold. It doesn't stop being drive just because the dog isn't as clearheaded as you (general) would like.
> 
> .


What I actually said (without part of the thought cut off) was: "I see a lot of dogs who are described as "high drive" who are simply over-aroused and sometimes out of control. That's not drive, in my definition." That would include dogs who are screaming around a course taking any obstacle they want. Or just zooming. Or trying to take down sheep (okay, that IS dinner drive, but not useful) And it's still not drive in my definition. It also doesn't sound like how you describe Strauss. But, you'd agree that it would be somewhat better if he didn't "leak drive"? To me, drive includes focus. The kind of drive that made my Jack work the sheep until they were penned, despite having blown pads on three feet. He was focussed on the job and didn't notice until then. If it doesn't it's just over-arousal. If you can't get a dog to focus, and listen, it doesn't matter how much "drive" you think he has. You won't get much accomplished. I think a lot of people get obsessed over the drive part and forget about the elements which are equally important in selecting a sport/companion dog. Balance often gets forgotten.


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## Niraya

I have nothing to contribute about high drive dogs BUT!

Patch said something about corgis..and everyone loves puppy pictures! So I thought I would share my friends litter of Pembroke puppies from last year :3 and maybe Patch will smile 

























:O


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## Xeph

> But, you'd agree that it would be somewhat better if he didn't "leak drive"?


Of course it would. The 'leakage' is annoying, lol. 



> To me, drive includes focus.


But they're not the same, which is where we seem to be in disagreement. Focus is necessary, yes, but it is not part of drive, IMO. It is a separate entity. A dog can still plenty drivey, even when he lacks clear headedness. The dog is not efficient, no, and often times is not particularly useful (because they are overloaded), but it doesn't change the fact that it is still drive the dog is displaying.

Strauss's big problem was that he had trouble containing his drive and controlling himself (in agility). The cap was just not there. He still cannot cap his drive per se....his "drive bottle" is leaky. However, prior to all the impulse control work, the dog couldn't get any sort of cap on himself at all. He was hectic and out of control....drive level then is the same as it is now. The only difference is that I was able to get it under control and get him clear headed enough that he would (will) go where I directed him.


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## juliemule

A dog wih super high drive is still drive whether it is biddable is seperate. With mals we really have to work on controlling over the top drives. There is a huge difference in just having tons of drive, and learning to work with it. Being focused is second after you get a drive crazy dog. Many of the narc dogs are just nuts lol, they are on lead and can go as crazy as they want. Some handlers take bites from their own dogs when they are over the top. Apprehension dogs must have drive and focused control. SAR dogs must have the drive and focus to be successful. It is indeed much easier to train a biddable dog, yet you can still succeed with just drive, if you can find something to satisfy that drive.


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## GottaLuvMutts

I'm with Xeph and Julie here - drive and focus are different. Kit had tons of drive at 7month, when I got her. No one had bothered to teach her how to focus it. I worked on impulse control, obedience, and then later agility and disc in order to focus that drive. It's still there, but it's not the out-of-control drive that it once was.

Also, I don't think that drive necessarily needs to be sacrificed in order to have a good pet, a good relationship, etc. The key is teaching the dog when to turn on the drive and when it's not appropriate. In general, people who meet Kit think she's completely nuts. I get a lot of comments like "how do you live with that?" But that's because when we're out and about (which is pretty much the only time people see us), she IS crazy. Around the house, when nothing's going on, she's actually pretty chill. But of course no one but me will ever observe that, because ironically, their very presence causes it to change. 

I like a dog who stays at 0 most of the time, but can go from 0 to 100 in a split second.


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## PatchworkRobot

Niraya said:


> I have nothing to contribute about high drive dogs BUT!
> 
> Patch said something about corgis..and everyone loves puppy pictures! So I thought I would share my friends litter of Pembroke puppies from last year :3 and maybe Patch will smile


 Who could possibly look at that and not smile?!


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## Niraya

I'm glad they made you smile 

Her litter was 3 tan boys and 3 black girls.


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## Pawzk9

juliemule said:


> A dog wih super high drive is still drive whether it is biddable is seperate. With mals we really have to work on controlling over the top drives. There is a huge difference in just having tons of drive, and learning to work with it. Being focused is second after you get a drive crazy dog. Many of the narc dogs are just nuts lol, they are on lead and can go as crazy as they want. Some handlers take bites from their own dogs when they are over the top. Apprehension dogs must have drive and focused control. SAR dogs must have the drive and focus to be successful. It is indeed much easier to train a biddable dog, yet you can still succeed with just drive, if you can find something to satisfy that drive.


I watched one video where three guys were trying to get a Mal to "out". At which point he turned and started gnawing on his handler's hand. To me that's not a very great apprehension dog (though I hope this was in early training, one guy was trying to present it as an example of a great working dog.) The thing is, there are certainly jobs which are best suited for a dog with really high "drive". But there are a great many people who are looking for "high drive" because they want to do a sport for recreation. It's my opinion that you should be careful what you ask for.


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## Laurelin

I am far far from an expert...

That said, I think your best bet is going with lines that have what you want and a breeder that has placed sports dogs before. I got Mia hoping for an agility dog. It's really unfortunate we haven't gotten to train as much as I'd hoped. But her breeder has sold to agility trainers and placed some great flyball, obedience, and agility dogs. Mia's got an uncle that made the agility world team multiple years in a row as well as several aunts, uncles, and cousins with multiple MACHs. I can sure tell a difference between her and my other dogs. She is very different temperament-wise.

She's a fun dog. From day 1 she chased toys. I didn't develope her tugging like I wish I had so nowadays in highly distracting areas she won't do it. She loves food. Will do anything for a tennis ball (if you can calm her down first). Is very human oriented and extremely trainable. She's very busy though, always has been. She is always into something and is very needy as far as exercise and things go. I have never had to worry about her not wanting to play agility, never had to build up her excitement. She's FAST too. It's loads of fun to have a dog that is just so into everything we do. I wish she had a better trainer than me, she'd be awesome. Our biggest problem has been impulse control, which isn't any easier than dealing with a dog you have to build up. 

That said, she's not perfect. But she's so fun. Summer was a decent agility dog till she started having joint problems. But she never had the kind of speed or intensity that Mia does.

ETA: Another thing I noticed with Mia was from day 1 she was following me like glue and super interested in everything I was doing.


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## juliemule

Pawzk9 said:


> I watched one video where three guys were trying to get a Mal to "out". At which point he turned and started gnawing on his handler's hand. To me that's not a very great apprehension dog (though I hope this was in early training, one guy was trying to present it as an example of a great working dog.) The thing is, there are certainly jobs which are best suited for a dog with really high "drive". But there are a great many people who are looking for "high drive" because they want to do a sport for recreation. It's my opinion that you should be careful what you ask for.


I agree that is not a good apprehension dog, just a liability, IMO. The out should be learned before any aggression is put on a dog. I watch dogs that are just snapping teeth inches fr
From a decoy, yet they do not bite until the command, or until he moves depending on the dogs training, and I'm always in awe.

I have taken bites, but do not agree with a good finished dog being an alligator on a leash.


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## Pawzk9

Laurelin said:


> I am far far from an expert...
> 
> That said, I think your best bet is going with lines that have what you want and a breeder that has placed sports dogs before. I got Mia hoping for an agility dog. It's really unfortunate we haven't gotten to train as much as I'd hoped. But her breeder has sold to agility trainers and placed some great flyball, obedience, and agility dogs. Mia's got an uncle that made the agility world team multiple years in a row as well as several aunts, uncles, and cousins with multiple MACHs. I can sure tell a difference between her and my other dogs. She is very different temperament-wise.
> 
> She's a fun dog. From day 1 she chased toys. I didn't develope her tugging like I wish I had so nowadays in highly distracting areas she won't do it. She loves food. Will do anything for a tennis ball (if you can calm her down first). Is very human oriented and extremely trainable. She's very busy though, always has been. She is always into something and is very needy as far as exercise and things go. I have never had to worry about her not wanting to play agility, never had to build up her excitement. She's FAST too. It's loads of fun to have a dog that is just so into everything we do. I wish she had a better trainer than me, she'd be awesome. Our biggest problem has been impulse control, which isn't any easier than dealing with a dog you have to build up.
> 
> That said, she's not perfect. But she's so fun. Summer was a decent agility dog till she started having joint problems. But she never had the kind of speed or intensity that Mia does.
> 
> ETA: Another thing I noticed with Mia was from day 1 she was following me like glue and super interested in everything I was doing.


Got to meet Ms Mia this week. She is darling. Very "up" little dog with lots of potential.


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## Laurelin

Pawzk9 said:


> Got to meet Ms Mia this week. She is darling. Very "up" little dog with lots of potential.


Aww thanks! Hopefully I can keep up with her!


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## 03firefly

I don't know much about pemmies, but I can tell you that most of the Cardigans that I know have a LOT of drive. Especially if you find the ones that are out of herding parents. My aunt breeds, shows, and herds her cardigans and their last litter had 5 dogs all with high drive.
But LoveCWCs is right with those points. Especially the 'don't start jumping until they have fully matured' thing. My aunt went through a difficult time when one of her dogs was young and wasn't as careful with him and his front legs are turned out. Luckily it's not something that hurts him now, but he is at risk for joint pain later in life and right now it's more a looks thing. He still got his championship - with a little massage therapy, she was able to help his legs turn in a little better.

But yeah, that's my two cents.


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## Alerondogs

IME the average Corgi does not tend to be all that high drive. Corgis are largely either show or pet bred and neither of those things tend to select for high drive. That said, you can find drivey dogs in both Corgi breeds is you look hard enough. You've gotten some good advice about going to a breeder who does stuff with their dogs. Rescue is an option too. Our Cardi is a rescue and he is an extremely high drive dog. He's got way more drive than any of the well bred Cardi's that I personally know. 

IMO with this breed, you also should consider looking for a dog who is has a bit more length of leg, a bit shorter of a body and a little less bone than the average show Corgi. Such Corgis do occur in well bred litters, some people refer to them as "throwbacks" meaning they more closely resemble Corgis of the past than the present. Plenty of people do agility with the very long, very short and heavy boned show Corgis, so it isn't a must but a dog who lacks those exaggerated dwarf characteristics will likely have an easier time of it.

As for drive, you absolutely can see it in many puppies, although it's true some "turn on" later. When I pick a puppy I look for confidence, human orientation with a bit of independence (willingness to explore a little, not clingy to people), willingness to tug, prey drive (chase a toy on a rope), interest in retrieve and general environmental confidence with different surfaces, noises, etc. Beyond selecting for those things, a lot will depend on you developing the drive through early interaction, games and training. So I'd suggest doing research on such things and knowing what you will do in that direction before you get your puppy. 

Drive is not the same as hyperactivity. Dogs can be very high drive but not hyper and hyper dogs may not be particularly high drive. Many non-performance breeders tend to think the most busy puppy in the litter will be the one who is "just perfect for agility because he's hyper". Or the "performance prospects" are the pups who aren't show potential. You can get a fine dog from a non-performance breeder too but you need to know what you want and be willing to walk away if the puppies you are offered don't have it.


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