# Sticky  Feeding Raw - Where to Start?



## RonE

Let's limit this thread to links and advice - especially for those of us who want to explore the possibilities of feeding raw. Let's start with the assumption that we all want whats best for our dogs and look at this as a possible option.

Since this will be a sticky, any off-topic posts will be deleted.


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## Wimble Woof

Here are some good info beginner links.
My usual I post.


http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm great beginners site.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/ 
great forum to join
More great sites.
http://members.shaw.ca/tamgarboxers/...ted_Links.html
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/sampleraw.htm
http://www.barfworld.com/
http://www.canadasguidetodogs.com/health/nutrition_food.htm
http://rawfed.com/
http://www.rawdogranch.com/rawdietbasics.htm Follow the links on the lower left hand side of the site.

Prey model raw links
http://www.geocities.com/havens_home/feedraw.htm


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## briteday

How much to feed...
http://www.boneapetit.ca/feedchart.html

Nutrition Info...
http://home.earthlink.net/~pawsreflect/nutrition.html

Co-ops, sources, diets, supplements...
http://www.dogaware.com/dogfeeding.html#co-ops


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## borzoimom

go here to get started.. http://www.dogforums.com/5-dog-food-forum/9491-feeding-raw-two-instructual.html


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## briteday

Please do not add to this sticky unless you are sharing websites. 

Open a new thread if you have specific questions regarding raw feeding.


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## DogsforMe

www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-diet-guide.pdf


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## Breeogie

I fed my dogs raw food for three years, and would definitely recommend it if you're willing to deal with some of the hassle. Remember, meat doesn't travel well, dogs can't switch from raw to kibble (so you pretty much have to pick one) and raw meat is fairly expensive. 

Some tips I can offer are:
If you don't feed bones, feed bone meal. Dogs, in the wild, would eat the whole thing after all.
Don't feed rice or other grains. Dogs can't digest them.
Don't bother cooking veggies or fruit that you feed.
Give you dogs _some_ supplements. While I disagree that your dog needs his own cabinet full of vitamins and minerals, I strongly believe in feeding fish oils for a healthy brain (for humans too) and flax seed oil (also good for you, by the way).
Finally, grown dogs will need to eat 2-3% of their body weight in meat every day, while puppies need about 10%. 
That's pretty much the gist of it; there are plenty of sites out there with plenty of information, but I thought I'd throw something a little more abbreviated out there. 
I'll be more than happy to answer any more questions. I've read the books and the sites, I can probably save you hours of valuable time.


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## BoxMeIn21

Breeogie said:


> dogs can't switch from raw to kibble (so you pretty much have to pick one) and raw meat is fairly expensive.


I think this all relative. Some dogs _can_ switch back and forth between kibble and raw. And raw meat is not always expensive. Just do your research.


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## briteday

Please be informed about "enhanced chicken" that contains as much as 15% salt water by weight. You have to read the fine print on the labels to find this information.

Here is some info on daily requirements, deficiency, and toxicity for sodium in dogs (table salt is sodium chloride in proper proportions):

American College of Veterinary Nutrition states:

"Daily sodium and chloride requirements in dogs...

In general, the chloride requirement is 1.5 times the sodium requirement. This is because most of the sodium and chloride come from salt, and by weight, salt provides 1.5 times more chloride than sodium. Adult dog foods should contain at least 0.06% sodium and 0.09% chloride (on a dry matter basis). Puppy foods should contain 5 times that much. Kitten and cat foods should contain at least 0.2% sodium and 0.3% chloride (on a dry matter basis). 

Sodium and chloride deficiency

A dietary deficiency of sodium and chloride would be extremely rare because most pets today are fed commercial pet foods. A sodium or chloride deficiency is more likely to occur because of an excess loss of these two minerals from the body. This can result from prolonged (or chronic) severe diarrhea and/or vomiting. This can be a very serious condition and animals with prolonged vomiting or diarrhea should be seen by a veterinarian.

Sodium and chloride toxicity

Sodium and chloride toxicity generally does not occur in normal animals with access to good quality drinking water. Any excess intake of sodium or chloride is filtered through the kidneys and excreted into the urine. If good drinking water is not provided, however, the concentrations of sodium and chloride can become too high. Signs of sodium chloride toxicity include seizures, blindness, dehydration, loss of appetite, and death within 24 hours."

Then, since I love documentation:

COMMITTEE ON NUTRIENT REQUIREMENTS OF DOGS AND CATS
DONALD C. BEITZ, Chair, Iowa State University
JOHN E. BAUER, Texas A&M University
KEITH C. BEHNKE, Kansas State University
DAVID A. DZANIS, Dzanis Consulting & Collaborations
GEORGE C. FAHEY, University Of Illinois
RICHARD C. HILL, University Of Florida
FRANCIS A. KALLFELZ, Cornell University
ELLEN KIENZLE, Zentrum Für Lebensmittel Und Tierernährung, Oberschleissheim, Germany
JAMES G. MORRIS, University Of California, Davis
QUINTON R. ROGERS, University Of California, Davis

(this is a varied group of individual who are nationally recognized at the university level)

"100 mg of sodium per day for a 33 pound dog, daily"

Just for perspective...15% enhanced salt in 4 oz of chicken is 180 milligrams of salt.

This equates to ... for every pound (16 ounces) of chicken, by weight, 2.4 ounces is salt water. Or...if you are paying $0.50 per pound for that bag of enhanced chicken thighs you are paying 7.5 cents for salt water, per pound...that equates to 75 cents for a 10 pound bag...for salt water.


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## DogsforMe

BoxMeIn21 said:


> I think this all relative. Some dogs _can_ switch back and forth between kibble and raw. And raw meat is not always expensive. Just do your research.


My dogs mostly eat kibble plus extras including raw meaty bones at least 3 times per week. I would like to feed totally raw but its not always conveinient. I have heard that it's best to feed kibble & raw in separate meals. Kibble doesn't digest as quickly as meat & bones. 
An excellent link is www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html


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## Robyn B.

I feed my dog Jake and Daisey's Raw Food. Some people prefer to make their own food for their dogs, but Jake and Daisey's is great, and simple.. plus its isnt that pricey! They are also already pre-packaged in 1lbs vaccuum packed 'baggies.' You keep it frozen, and de-thaw the ones you are using the day of. They have a great variety of different meats they use; chicken, beef, pork, turkey, buffalo... and all of them have fruits and veggies mixed in for extra nutrients  Its also great to throw in some oils or flax seed or eggs once in a while. 
And you are supposed to feed your dog 2% of its own body weight if you are feeding raw.


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## MoonStr80

I found few good sites I looked over from other dog forums I am on & yahoo groups etc
Switching to Raw
A Raw Deal
Article from B Natural - Raw Diet


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## myminpins

http://www.totallyrawdogfood.com/


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## rosemaryninja

Great beginner's sites:
http://www.raw-dog-food-diet.com/
http://www.rawlearning.com/
http://www.dogaware.com/wdjhomemade5.html
http://www.kaossiberians.com/rawfeeding.html
http://www.skylarzack.com/rawfeeding.htm

Further reading:
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/documents/feeding-raw.pdf
http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/barf-myth.html
http://www.workingdogs.com/portal/html/article.php?sid=33
http://www.secondchanceranch.com/training/raw_meat/index.html
http://www.secondchanceranch.org/training/raw_meat/testimonies.html
http://www.secondchanceranch.org/training/raw_meat/faq.html
http://www.vetinfo.com/drawmeat.html
http://www.wellpet.org/nutrition/naturaldiet.htm
http://home.att.net/~wdcusick/raw.html
http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/meat.htm
http://www.belfield.com/article11.html
http://www.startribune.com/stories/389/3137272.html
http://life.ca/nl/83/pets.html
http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/wolfexrep.html
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/feeding_a_raw_diet_htm.htm
http://www.darlenearden.com/articlediet.htm

Information on raw diets and epileptic dogs:
http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/Cautions_Raw_Food.htm


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## RetrieverGirl41

Start SLOWLY!!!! Ease him into the raw foods.....Maybe even start with home cooked first then start adding some raw.


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## sirilucky

I found a site in google that helps dispelling some of the many myths about dogs, wolves, and feeding raw meaty bones to our pets. And here is the site
http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

Hope this helps most of us.


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## DobManiac

http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/raw-diet/?main_page=May2006.php


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## phoebespeople

We started Phoebe on an all raw food diet at 7 weeks old, cold turkey (literally!). We started with ground chicken backs and necks, ground turkey necks and green lamb tripe. She gets kelp/alphalfa powder and salmon oil in her breakfast and an egg yolk every other day. We introduced beef heart, beef and organ blend, chicken and organ blend, turkey and organ blend, ground duck, lamb and organ blend, whole tukey necks, whole chicken backs and necks, and sardines in water. She gets beef marrow bones every couple of days as well. We are going to start buying whole chickens and turkeys (the tough cheap ones for $1.00-$1.50/lb), meaty pork neck bones, beef heart, and whatever organs are on sale at the meat counter. We'll cut the chickens and turkeys into one lb chunks.
Here are our guidelines:
A balanced diet over the course of a week is fine, balanced individual meals is not necessary. Variety is the key.
Alphalfa/kelp powder and salmon oil daily, and green tripe once a week is a MUST.
NO cooking, NO salt, NO grains, NO smoked bones.
Don't worry about raw bones. Raw bones crumble, cooked bones splinter.
Don't worry about you dog choking on chunks of raw meat and bones. Dogs are natural masters of regurgitation, if it's too big of a chunk, they will bring it back up and try again.
Raw dog food averages to about $2.00/lb. Phoebe eats about 1lb per day now that she's a full grown adult (50lbs). That equals about $60.00/month. That is way cheaper that premium kibble.
http://www.buddiesnaturalpetfood.ca/
Here is a link to Buddies Natural Pet Food in Victoria (Saanich). 
Have a look at thier Raw Info .pdf
http://www.buddiesnaturalpetfood.ca/RAW_INFO__july08.pdf
and their Dog Menu
http://www.buddiesnaturalpetfood.ca/MenuinsideJUNE2008.pdf
They are an excellent resource, most of what they sell you can find yourself at the butcher.
Also, check out the meal calculator at totallyrawdogfood.com,
http://www.totallyrawdogfood.com/MealCalculator.aspx

Feeding your dog raw food is the best thing you can do for your dog.


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## briteday

Look in the stickies in the dog food forum. There is plenty of info on how to start feeding raw. Most of us started on whole chickens, cut up, for the first 2-4 weeks, gradually introducing chicken organs. Once a dog has gone 7 days without any gi distress on chicken then you can add one new species per week, icluding that specie's organ meat at a ratio of 10%. If you are unsure of what 10% looks like for each meal buy a small digital postal scale, I got mine at Costco and use it daily since I have small dogs. Once your dog has mastered all of the species you intend to feed, without issues, then you can mix and match a daily menu as you please. There is also a sticky of average daily menues so you can see what other people are feeding.

It is very important that you get yourself familiar with calciumhosphorus ratios, vitamins provided by various organs, essential amino acids only found in certain foods, and how to find the best meat you can afford with relationship to omega 3:6 balance. Raw feeding is not about cruising the grocery aisles to see what you can find this week, until your dog is established in the diet. More people stop raw feeding because they never got the proper start. Or they go in for a vet check and fnd out their dog is horribly deficient in something simple like calcium. 

Hint: most of us started with whole chickens until we figured out the rest because a whole chicken, fed over a few days, is one of the most perfect calcium : phosphorus ratios that nature created...easy to get things right until you have a chance to read more.

Turkey necks and chicken backs have too much bone (calcium) to be a balanced meal. You need to feed some additional muscle meat to balance out the phosphorus. Frankly, if you choose to only serve certain parts of any animal you are depriving your dog of the variety of nutrients found in the entire animal. I realize that most of us can't feed a whole cow over time. But we can certainly find whole chickens so that they benefit from the nutrients found in the dark meat, fat, white meat, etc. Try to think of feeding prey model (do a google search) so that your dog gets the benefits of many parts of the animal.

Dogs do not possess the enzyme necessary to break down plant cell walls. So if you choose to feed veg / fruit you need to blenderize / pulverize (break the cell wals so the nutrients can be released) the heck out of it first. Some of us choose not to feed any plant or grains. Personal choice.

And always remember that a bad raw diet is far worse than a good kibble diet.


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## sirilucky

Here is the link of the site which tell us about why you should feed pets raw food.
http://www.rawfoodlife.com/Raw_Pets/raw_pets.htm


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## Kathyy

YOU choose which meats to buy. Just stick to a budget and it works out fine. Keep buffalo in mind and some day it may come down in price and then you will buy it. I wish for rabbit, some day it will be affordable. I got my freezer and Max is in love with the ostrich trim and tripe that is affordable when a whole box is purchased.

Raw takes a lot of study to start up. Raw takes a lot of shopping. Raw takes a lot of freezer room as you need to keep some variety at hand to save money.

I haven't found raw to be messy and during the course of my learning about raw figured out how much and what to feed. 

Max was fine on kibble, fine on home cooked but is very much best on raw. Keep on reading, maybe someday you will be ready to try it out. No hurry.


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## SunnyPaw

sirilucky said:


> I found a site in google that helps dispelling some of the many myths about dogs, wolves, and feeding raw meaty bones to our pets. And here is the site
> http://www.rawfed.com/myths/
> 
> Hope this helps most of us.


FYI - Sirilucky - that link doesn't work. I even tried the root (just rawfed.com), and that did not come up either. Maybe they are having server issues?


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## Kathyy

I got the main page through the wayback machine and you can go to the myths page from there.http://web.archive.org/web/20071011161809/http://rawfed.com/


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## filkertus

here is good intro article on BARF diets

http://www.fidodogtreats.com/did-you-say-barf


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## chandres

A note about the butcher... ask about their scraps! I've been feeding my dog a raw diet for about a year, and just discovered a local butcher that sells "dog boxes". They empty a chicken case that holds 40 lbs. of chicken, and fill it with scraps, bone dust from under the slicer, meats that didn't sell in time, etc. Lots of goodies, and my butcher sells the box full for $5. It's a great savings that I didn't know about until I asked specifically.


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## phoebespeople

There is going to be a period of detoxification when switching to RAW. They will get runny poops, and even have mucous in their stools. It is normal and will go away in a week or two. However, if your dog is undergoing medical treatment for something, you should wait until they have no other stresses on their bodies that would make the transition to RAW more difficult. A tbs. of unsweetened canned pumpkin with their meals will help firm up their poops.
I think 2% of their body weight is fine for a lazy adult dog, 3% might be better for a younger more active dog. We feed Phoebe 3 to 4% because she is so active and energetic and we can still see her ribs a little bit.


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## DobManiac

*Re: Feeding Raw - When you travel*



MagicRe said:


> they are once again on antibiotics....their stools are finally firm again..they are on a cooked bland diet of chicken/turkey/hamburger/ and brown rice....


I wouldn't suggest switched a dog to raw when they're on antibiotics. The diet does best with a meal maintained and balanced GI tract and that will just not be the case for you right now. It’s really not great to make any diet switch while the dog is on antibiotics. What are they taking the antibiotics for and how much longer will they be on them?

I can't see why they would need antibiotics for a diarrhea unless there was bacteria overgrowth in the GI tract. If that was the case I would replace the antibiotics with organic apple cider vinegar or grape seed extract. I would also start them on a really good doggy probiatic. That would solve the problem naturally with cause further harm to their digestive system. But I tend to be very homeopathic and avoid antibiotics if at all possible. They kill the good bacteria right along with the bad, and it can take a dog or human several months to replenish.


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## MagicRe

*Re: Feeding Raw - When you travel*



DobManiac said:


> I wouldn't suggest switched a dog to raw when they're on antibiotics. The diet does best with a meal maintained and balanced GI tract and that will just not be the case for you right now. It’s really not great to make any diet switch while the dog is on antibiotics. What are they taking the antibiotics for and how much longer will they be on them?
> 
> I can't see why they would need antibiotics for a diarrhea unless there was bacteria overgrowth in the GI tract. If that was the case I would replace the antibiotics with organic apple cider vinegar or grape seed extract. I would also start them on a really good doggy probiatic. That would solve the problem naturally with cause further harm to their digestive system. But I tend to be very homeopathic and avoid antibiotics if at all possible. They kill the good bacteria right along with the bad, and it can take a dog or human several months to replenish.


there was bacteria overgrowth in the GI tract and one of the dogs had had giardia....a ten year old dog, believe it or not....which is why they are on antibiotics, one of which is an anti inflammotry also....

they are done now, so it's going to be a bland cooked diet until i'm ready to switch again..only this time, we'll do it much slower..

they won't go back to kibble...they'll stay on cooked until it's time...


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## MagicRe

*Re: Feeding Raw - When you travel*

we are on more than just chicken now, as an update, although we haven't yet added fat and skin back in any great quantity...we are starting to...slowly.

they are doing fine on chicken, turkey, pork, smelts and one stripped down llama bone for fun...

we are slowly adding fat and skin back into their diets and they are tolerating that well.

when i move on to beef, considering how they have previously reacted to too much fat, what cut of beef do you think i should start with?

i was thinking eye roast or silver roast....the dry cuts that require a gadzillion hours of braising or roasting....low and slow roast types...due to decreased fat...

any suggestions?

they do get 'tastes' of ground buffalo, lamb, hamburger, but only tastes so far and any time i cook a roast they get a bite of it...but now it's time to incorporate it into their rotation...


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## EtherealJane

Is it ok to feed one of the packaged raw patties until I read up enough to feel confident with parts of animals? I guess i'm a little squeamish, seeing as I'm vegetarian, but I really do want the best for my dog. From what I've read, the patties aren't AS good as totally raw, but it still seems to be a step up from the best kibble. My dog is only 15 pounds, and we can afford the expense. Could I supplement his raw patties a few times a week with some stuff with the bones from the butcher?


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## MagicRe

EtherealJane said:


> Is it ok to feed one of the packaged raw patties until I read up enough to feel confident with parts of animals? I guess i'm a little squeamish, seeing as I'm vegetarian, but I really do want the best for my dog. From what I've read, the patties aren't AS good as totally raw, but it still seems to be a step up from the best kibble. My dog is only 15 pounds, and we can afford the expense. Could I supplement his raw patties a few times a week with some stuff with the bones from the butcher?


from experience, i can tell you that jumping into raw is not recommended....may i suggest that you do your research, so you and the dog don't get freaked out during transition....

humans have a lifetime of myths and misinformation and disingenuous information and misdirection....to shake loose and our dogs also have a lifetime of kibble to get out of their systems so their digestive tracts can function on a whole new and more appropriate level....

you could feed the patties....many do...and their dogs seem happy....

my two cents, for what it's worth...is to read and then commit...it only seems hard in the beginning and quite frankly.....we complicate it when it is fairly simply.....not easy, but simple....

patience is the other thing to think about...do you have that to wait to see the results. they are not instantaneous.....in the scheme of things, changes come pretty quickly....

if you want, you could go with something like darwin's pet foods....or primal....these are grinds....that way you have some balance between the meat and bone ratio....i'd start with their chicken grinds...

if you go prey model, you don't need veggies...

if you go BARF model, you do...

both companies, and i know there are others....offer a variety of each kind...


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## dieterherzog

This is just to chime in that before you start feeding raw or any homemade food, it is important to RESEARCH and make sure your dog is getting the proper nutrition he/she needs. It is WORSE to feed your dog badly analyzed homemade dog food than kibble. 

Dr.Pitcairn's Complete Guide To Natural Health For Dogs And Cats is a book I would recommend for starters. Although there are many things in there that people can disagree on, his homemade dog food recipes are properly analyzed and is a good starting point for feeding raw. 

Also, in the book, it tells you which vitamins and minerals are found in what kinds of meat and you can eventually tailor that to your dog's needs.


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## MagicRe

dieterherzog said:


> This is just to chime in that before you start feeding raw or any homemade food, it is important to RESEARCH and make sure your dog is getting the proper nutrition he/she needs. It is WORSE to feed your dog badly analyzed homemade dog food than kibble.
> 
> Dr.Pitcairn's Complete Guide To Natural Health For Dogs And Cats is a book I would recommend for starters. Although there are many things in there that people can disagree on, his homemade dog food recipes are properly analyzed and is a good starting point for feeding raw.
> 
> Also, in the book, it tells you which vitamins and minerals are found in what kinds of meat and you can eventually tailor that to your dog's needs.


Dr. Pitcairn recommends a different style of feeding than let's say, Dr. Tom Lonsdale.....Lew Olson's book is coming out as well....

There are those who believe in veggies, supplementation, those who believe in tripe, others don't.....those who believe no veggies, no supplements, just protein/organs/offal/bone/....

prey model
frankenprey
barf

gotta read and research as has been suggested and then make a decision as to what path you want to travel...


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## EtherealJane

Thanks for the information. I definitely plan on researching RAW feeding more thoroughly. I will look into the book mentioned, but are there other resources out there that sum up the different RAW feeding methods well? I tried googling things like "BARF vs. prey model" and such, but wasn't finding a lot of good, accurate looking information.

I want my dog to be happy and healthy, and just going by how he reacted to the sample (he went NUTS over the raw patty--whereas he's normally kind of "eh" about eating his kibble at home) I think it's something that he'll like better too. He got a raw bone at the vet yesterday and he was occupied for at least 30 minutes, and just one session with the bone seemed to help the tarter on his back teeth. I can see how this type of diet could really be beneficial for my dog.

I was thinking about the patties because they are easy to prepare and that way I couldn't mess up the ratio of bones to muscle to organs. The last thing I'd want to do is mess up my dog's health in any way. My vet actually recommends feeding raw (but he's a holistic vet that is certified in traditional vet practices, as well as acupuncture and chinese herbs and isn't at all sponsored by the pet food companies). I also will be student teaching next semester, and I anticipate being rather busy. I'm already looking into cooking weekly for my husband and I and then freezing the meals to heat up during the week, so it'd be convenient if Wesley's food was simple as well. I guess that's my other practical concern--we only have one freezer, and the patties are a lot easier to store/take up less space than lots of meat on bones would.

I will continue to do some reading, and any resources that you know of or would be willing to share would be much appreciated


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## MagicRe

on the weekends, we prepare meals for our dogs and ourselves...

he helps me cook (he's my sous chef LOL) and we both get proteins out for the dogs.

i have a scale and i no longer bag things, because i never know what i'm going to feed them that day...it really is determined by the day before...and their stools or how much they ate...

this is not exact...i mean, it can be....but i don't do this for myself...i eat healthy and i eat a variety of foods...we don't consume junk...or processed foods...

that's my philosophy for the dogs...

so they get a variety of proteins..in one day, they could be eating chicken, beef, pork, lamb...that is four proteins....the bone might come from chicken, the heart might come from beef, the pork might be breakfast, the lamb might be dinner...

it's all proportioned out for them when i go to feed them.

is it a little more work? yeah on a daily basis...i keep a polycarbonate container in the fridge, organ in baggies in the freezer....they've been cut up into weekly sizes..we do that with anything we buy in bulk..

but, say their stools are soft on monday...i'm definitely going' to feed a little more bone on tuesday....

in the beginning, we had little baggies with their names on it....but as they've adapted, they don't need the bone they had when we were in transition....

their digestive systems are adapting and we're only at three months....so we're also adapting and their body shape, condition of their fur, their attitude, their energy, their stools...all tell us the entire story....dogs don't cover up...they are an open book..and whilst i might not be able to do the exact...i think i don't have to be exact...

others do and that's fine....i balance over time.......

good luck to you and you'll find your area of comfort....dogs are not so fragile....they lived on kibble, no?


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## Sarayu14

I just have a question about adding garlic to a meal. I have read that it is toxic but I also have read that it can neutralize gas (I bought a really good book on raw feeding called _Raw & Natural Nutrition for Dogs_ by Lew Olson PhD). I just don't know what to believe.


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## Kathyy

There is a nice guideline on how much to use right in the book. Maybe try 1/2 of that amount for your dog? I liked putting a sliver in Sassy's cooked food but how do you get a raw fed dog to eat the stuff?


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## MagicRe

Kathyy said:


> There is a nice guideline on how much to use right in the book. Maybe try 1/2 of that amount for your dog? I liked putting a sliver in Sassy's cooked food but how do you get a raw fed dog to eat the stuff?


by putting a sliver right on top of their food 


i have great admiration for lew olson.....i just take peeled garlic, not for every meal, though....and stick a sliver into whatever protein i'm feeding...especially on non boney days....but only about twice a month or so....i'm getting to the point where i don't think dogs need garlic.....

what i am finding out is there are certain foods that give my dogs gas, such as mackerel, llama, and rich grass fed beef....since humans get gas....i don't see why dogs shouldn't...especially dogs who take in a lot of air when they eat....smushed face dogs would do that, as would gulpers...


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## MagicRe

if that's your dog in your avatar, seems to me a fist sized anything might not be in his best interests....

personally, if it's what i think it is, i'd use them to make broth or stew for humans....

and get shanks or lamb breast or lamb ribs for your dog...there are butchers who will give lamb trim away or sell lamb trim, which is good for your dog, although fatty....and, even though dogs and fat are good companions.....even for dogs there is such a thing as too much fat, depending on the size of the dog and the amount of fat you're feeding....can give them the runs and all that good stuff...

if you can find somewhere to find a whole lamb cut up....that would be awesome for your dog....or if you have a co op that you can join, where members buy in bulk...

it also sounds like you have a butcher you coulc talk to....and tell him you don't want sharp cuts or weight bearing....bones...or knuckles or soup bones....hard on a dog's teeth...

but trim would be great....and no bone shavings off the floor, tell him : )


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## kyle6286

I am feeding my shih tzu Orijen, which is supposed to be one of the best dry dog foods on the market. However, I just joined this forum and came across this thread. It seems as though a lot of you believe the raw diet is better for the dog. Excuse my ignorance, but are the results night and day? I mean, I ask this because there's always those dogs that can eat Purina and Beneful all their lives and live until they're 18, and then other dogs that are given much better quality foods that don't live as long. I don't expect a dog to live longer simply because of the food they're eating. Of course, there are external circumstances that affect a dog's life. Basically, I am just wondering about this because I am feeding my dog Orijen now because I want to give my dog what's best. However, if there are a lot of people who believe the raw diet is what's "best", it may be something I have to think about.


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## Active Dog

Honestly its not a question of what is "best" because like you said for some dogs ol roy is great! However I have not been able to see the same change in my dog on kibble as I had with raw. On raw she hardly shed (now its every other day vacuuming), her allergies went away, and she needed baths less. Also I am sure you noticed the difference in type of poop after feeding Orijen. Well raw poop is very small and compact, it looks even healthier than premium kibble poop. 

All that being said it takes a LOT of research, I researched it for about 6 months. I know some people have done research for years on this forum. However if you did want to try it out everyone here has fantastic advice! When I joined a year ago I had no idea what raw was, but with all the people on the forum able to help me out I learned a lot!

(PS the reason I stopped doing raw was because we moved and the freezer doesn't have enough space to accommodate all the meat.)


----------



## MagicRe

for me, the difference is night and day...i researched for almost a year....there isn't a day that goes by that i wish i had done this when my shih tzus were puppies....

but i can tell you i will never ever go back....my last original dog who was started out on kibble and is now fed raw just turned eleven. she's been raw fed for almost a year...and even after a user error rocky beginning, the difference in her is obvious to everyone who knows her, so i know it's not just me.

her teeth are pure white.
her coat is brilliant and blindlingly shiny and black and thick
she acts like she's five, not eleven and can keep up with my three year old pug.
her health is excellent
she is muscular
she has energy

i cannot give you scientific proof, as so many people want...i can only give you anecdotal objective observation about a dog whom i've had for all of her life....

i cannot say if she will live longer; but, i can see she lives better.

and, there are people who live into their nineties, and they smoke and drink and eat everything wrong and that's just their genetics and good for them....

but it's russian roulette to think that they eat and smoke and eat junk because they had a crystal ball...the body is fantastic at trying to adapt to anything thrown at it, including that which is unhealthy..sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

with raw....i may not extend her life, but i fervently believe i am improving her quality as long as she lives...and that's what counts...for me.


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## Kathyy

It was night and day for Max. On any kibble he was not stinky or itchy but he lacked muscle mass and his coat was eh. On raw he gained 5 pounds of muscle, his coat is like velvet and grows much longer. His temperament improved too, less anxious, although he is a super nervous dog anyway. I discovered he is sensitive to grains and gets goopy eyes if he gets into something grainy! I also prefer to feed food that is less processed as it just seems wrong to feed such a dry diet as 10% moisture kibble to animals year after year.

Forgot about the teeth. I was giving him a raw meaty bone weekly already for that. Much cheaper and safer than dental cleanings.


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## kyle6286

Thank you all for your info. I'm glad you have seen such great results. I don't mean to sound uneducated when I say is raw food "better" than premium quality kibble. I should've said I am interested in anyone's opinions. Just looking on here today, the raw diet definitely seems like something you don't want to get into until you research it for a while and become fully educated on the issue. With that said, I am definitely interested in it for my shih tzu. He's only a little over two, and I thought giving him Orijen was a great first step in giving him healthy, premium quality kibble. I have noticed his stool is a lot more solid and the color has changed to a darker color (sorry, don't mean to be gross  ) I'm assuming this is a good thing. Is this due to the higher protein content, being that Orijen's protein is 38%? 

Nonetheless, it's nice to read from dog owners on here and know that there are those in the world that care so much for animals (not to say that those that don't feed raw diet don't care lol). I always feel so bad when I hear of animal abuse, especially dogs because I'm a huge dog lover. It's comforting to read such great stuff on this site. Thanks for all the info.

And Magic, I actually just made that analogy regarding people smoking and drinking their entire lives when I was talking about dog food with a few people that also were interested in the raw diet. Thanks


----------



## MagicRe

kyle6286 said:


> Thank you all for your info. I'm glad you have seen such great results. I don't mean to sound uneducated when I say is raw food "better" than premium quality kibble. I should've said I am interested in anyone's opinions. Just looking on here today, the raw diet definitely seems like something you don't want to get into until you research it for a while and become fully educated on the issue. With that said, I am definitely interested in it for my shih tzu. He's only a little over two, and I thought giving him Orijen was a great first step in giving him healthy, premium quality kibble. I have noticed his stool is a lot more solid and the color has changed to a darker color (sorry, don't mean to be gross  ) I'm assuming this is a good thing. Is this due to the higher protein content, being that Orijen's protein is 38%?
> 
> Nonetheless, it's nice to read from dog owners on here and know that there are those in the world that care so much for animals (not to say that those that don't feed raw diet don't care lol). I always feel so bad when I hear of animal abuse, especially dogs because I'm a huge dog lover. It's comforting to read such great stuff on this site. Thanks for all the info.
> 
> And Magic, I actually just made that analogy regarding people smoking and drinking their entire lives when I was talking about dog food with a few people that also were interested in the raw diet. Thanks



you sound like a huge dog lover, and you just want what's best for your dog.....totally understandable...just don't get too hung up on numbers...look more toward the ingredients and the processing....

my dogs eat raw, but raw is lower in protein percentage than what you're feeding....about 18-21%....mainly because, like humans, animals are made up of more water than anything else....

keep in mind what part of kibble is an ad campaign and what part makes sense....and i don't think you sound uneducated...asking questions is how we all come to whatever conclusions we can live with....: )


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## KBLover

MagicRe said:


> her teeth are pure white.
> her coat is brilliant and blindlingly shiny and black and thick
> she acts like she's five, not eleven and can keep up with my three year old pug.
> her health is excellent
> she is muscular
> she has energy
> 
> i cannot give you scientific proof, as so many people want...i can only give you anecdotal objective observation about a dog whom i've had for all of her life....
> 
> i cannot say if she will live longer; but, i can see she lives better.



My thoughts exactly. While I don't feed raw in the most literal sense, the food I'm feeding now is dehydrated raw food (and it's as expensive as heck, but when trying to do it the literal way - actual raw food - Wally loved it, but wasn't getting enough food and with the only food sources out here in the suburbs being grocery stores...)

It's a night and day difference even over Innova, and I thought that food was the bomb. 

Coat has never been softer, breath not stinky, nice teeth, full of energy and strength (such that it is in a 12lb dog).


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## Kathyy

Bluestaffy, I pay $1 or less for poultry and less than $2 for red meat. I cannot see the prices on the list to help with specifics, sorry. All you want for starters is chicken. Whole carcasses with all the meat are what you are looking for so you can cut them into meals yourself. So if you can find nice red meats for about double the price of whole chicken and the price of the two combined is about half what you pay for kibble per pound you might be looking pretty good. Ideally you would be feeding about half red meat, some fatty fish, some organs and the rest bony chicken. 

Max would eat 4-6 ounces of kibble a day and he eats 10 ounces of raw. While raw has water in it, it is also nutrient dense with loads of fat that kibble hasn't. If your combined meat prices cost about half per pound what you are paying for kibble I suspect raw would be a better deal.


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## MagicRe

BlueStaffy said:


> That pic is 2 months old, he is 7 months and can chew through anything. He is a Staffy, if you know them you know a fist size anything is just fine.
> 
> Unfortuantly i can not talk to this butcher, they speak Very little English and my Cantonnese is even worse.
> 
> Thanks for the tips, ill visit a few more butchers today.
> 
> Cheers



here's the thing...i know staffies...love the breed, by the way....he must be gorgeous...

let me digress -- if you know pugs, you know they have wide mouths, but their tracheas are small just like a small dog....there are good eaters and stupid eaters or gulpers...until you know what kind of dog you have...my pug was a stupid eater/gulper.....and the first thing he did was swallow a drumstick whole. did not gnaw. crunch. nothing.

so size does matter and fist size for a staffy might be too small....the idea is, if you decide to do this, is to get them to work...

and whilst i cannot speak for others, my mentor started my dogs on chicken backs...yes, they are bony....but they were stripped of excess fat, organs and skin....to give them time to adapt...the excess bone was to keep the stools stable because my dogs had a very rocky start....user error 

if you follow other plans, generally people with larger dogs are told to buy a whole chicken and cut it into four parts....watch the stools...if the stools are like hershey squirts, no worries. add more bone...if the stools are solid, you're doing well...if the stools are too crunchy, take some bone away...

you'd be feeding chicken, bone in for about a week or so...until he stabilises and you're satisfied.....so chicken is where you'd start....you move very slowly so as to give him a chance to adapt from his teeth to his digestive tract....move on to turkey next, then pork if you can, then fish, and then red meat....and finally offal, such as liver....about five per cent of his overall diet should be liver (acts like vitamins) and the other five per cent should be either kidney or spleen or pancreas or another offal....

the guideline is 80% (Protein) 5 % liver and 5% other kind of offal....

it's a step by step program and the place to ask your questions is here....because there are raw feeders even more experienced than i who would be glad to help....


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## MagicRe

how much does he weigh and how much do you expect him to weigh....

if you're doing barf...then make sure you puree the veggies and fruits...if that's the route you're going...since i don't feed my dogs the barf model, i'll leave it to someone who does to advise you if you need it...

beef tongue is wonderful...and if he's use to eating meat and his stools are good, then feed it...

you want to be able to give as much variety as possible....but you have to feed what you can afford and what you set your price point at for both dogs.

my dogs are small...they eat a pound a day between the two of them....so i can set my price point higher...my friend has five dogs and feeds 23 pounds a day....her price point is lower and she shops for as many sales as she can...

it gets to be fun to do so......chasing sales, joining co ops if you can find them...going straight to the distributor or making a deal with the butcher...

veal is wonderful....the one thing you want to watch out for is how the bone is cut....if you can get veal bone...from the breast or the neck or anywhere....your dogs will love you...it depends on how the butcher cuts the bone...if they are sharp...then your dogs could cut themselves...

otherwise....veal bone is good.....and, since veal is a lightweight calf...you could feed legs and tongue and well, just about any part of a calf...especially the ribs...

beef ribs - i'd save for later...might have too much fat on them...in the beginning...but for my dogs, at least, they make a great teeth cleaner...

i don't know about the pork sanitation laws where you are....ask...because the only countries that pork is eaten without fear of disease are mostly in the west, like the US and Canada.....

fish is good, but freeze it for a few weeks to a month....even in the usa, i freeze everything...just to make sure there are no parasites....try to buy wild fish, rather than farm fed, since farm fed is not as nutritious....

eggs - raw....we feed them once a week...

just remember to go slowly with sydney and watch the poops for stabilisation...that he's young should make it easier....and have fun...always have fun..

congrats on coco!! good on you for starting her out on raw.....does the beef mince and chicken mince have any bone in it? she'll need that for her calcium needs and other minerals....plus it acts as fibre to firm up those stools..


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## EtherealJane

Is it ok to grind my dog's food, bone included like the pre-made BARF style patties? He gets his teeth brushed daily, and I will still give him a few recreational bones a week for teeth cleaning purposes.


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## MagicRe

EtherealJane said:


> Is it ok to grind my dog's food, bone included like the pre-made BARF style patties? He gets his teeth brushed daily, and I will still give him a few recreational bones a week for teeth cleaning purposes.


i think grinding food kind of defeats the purpose, but many people grind their dog's foods with the bone....problem is, the type of grinder you'd need for anything other than chicken would be very expensive....

you won't ever need to brush his teeth again if you feed a prey model raw....

what kind of recreational bones do you give? because, if they are marrow or soup bones, you run the risk of damaging his teeth...


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## TwoDogMommy

Hi everyone,

I'm just starting to look into raw feeding for my dogs, so bear with me if this has already been asked. But is there any neeed for me to be worried about pathogens in raw meats (E. coli, etc.), or can dogs digestive systems actually process this stuff with no problems?


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## MagicRe

TwoDogMommy said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm just starting to look into raw feeding for my dogs, so bear with me if this has already been asked. But is there any neeed for me to be worried about pathogens in raw meats (E. coli, etc.), or can dogs digestive systems actually process this stuff with no problems?


a dog's digestive tract is highly acidic. e.coli and salmonella are everywhere, including dry kibble.....but they have the power to destroy salmonella and e.coli, as well as any other bacterias on food....

how far have you gotten in your consideration of feeding raw?


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## TwoDogMommy

MagicRe said:


> a dog's digestive tract is highly acidic. e.coli and salmonella are everywhere, including dry kibble.....but they have the power to destroy salmonella and e.coli, as well as any other bacterias on food....
> 
> how far have you gotten in your consideration of feeding raw?


Not very far.. I just perused this thread today as a place to start. On some of the recommended links I saw that yes, dogs can handle a certain amount of meat bacteria that humans can't. I am going to do more research into raw feeding though before I make a decision. Right now our boys are eating premium kibble and not-so-premium canned stuff mixed in with it. At this point I can see giving them a few raw marrow bones a week to chew on for teeth cleaning, but I'm not committed to a raw diet just yet.

Thanks for replying!


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## MagicRe

sure, no problem.....happy to help out...if i may caution you against marrow bones...they are from a weight bearing animal (cow) and as such, the bone is very dense...what's in the bone, marrow, is very fatty and raw, and many dogs get the runs from it...dogs who are not used to eating raw. 

secondly, the density of the bone can and has fractured many a tooth...and to those who are feeding them, it's just a matter of time before something happens....in my humble opinion, marrow bones or any femur or leg bone from a cow...just not worth it....


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## TwoDogMommy

Thanks for the advice.. 

What would you suggest instead.. livers? Gizzards? What about chicken legs or turkey drumsticks?


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## MagicRe

if you're feeding kibble, i'd suggest a bully stick or an antler....

if you want, buy some beef ribs and strip most of the meat and fat off or you'll give your dogs diarrhea.....and they'll love gnawing on them. don't leave them out too long for they will dry and get brittle and that's exactly opposite of what you want.

but i would not give them raw edible bone if you're feeding kibble, although some do...and if you were to do so, you could give them a chicken wing, which is more bone than meat, so they won't get the runs....shih tzus can always use something to clean their teeth.


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## TwoDogMommy

Thanks MagicRe.


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## xxxxdogdragoness

I have a question, I feed kibble & want to continue that way (I know I have posted this question elsewhere but I wanted to put it where it was most appropriate) but I want to supplement their diet with raw, how do I go about doing this & what meat should I use? I want something I can mix into their kibble would it be ok to try eggs instead of yogurt which I have read is bad for them, we have farm chickens so eggs are NP for us to come by lol.


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## MagicRe

personal opinion only, but i would not mix kibble with raw....simply because of the digestion differences, time wise...

why not just scramble an egg or give some cooked with the kibble....if you want to add to their diet...

if you want to feed raw as a supplement, i would feed one meal raw, one meal kibble....it's pretty easy to do...start with a chicken leg quarter for brekkie...and kibble for dinner....once the dog is used to the chicken leg quarter, then progress to a pork rib and then lamb ribs, and for fun, beef ribs...although they won't be able to eat the actual bone....


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## Kathyy

Here is a guide to adding fresh food to kibble. http://www.dogaware.com/diet/freshfoods.html

I suspect a lot of the difficulty mixing raw and kibble is because we forget to SUBSTITUTE some fresh for the kibble and ADD it instead. Keep the total calories about the same and add them in a little at a time. If you decide an egg a day is a great idea start out with a teaspoon of raw egg a day or even less and move on as the dog's gut adjusts to the new stuff. And raw+kibble may or may not work out, go slow and watch the dogs.


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## Sarayu14

MagicRe said:


> you won't ever need to brush his teeth again


I will probably still need to brush my girl's teeth, she has a tendency to eat poop some times.



TwoDogMommy said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm just starting to look into raw feeding for my dogs, so bear with me if this has already been asked. But is there any neeed for me to be worried about pathogens in raw meats (E. coli, etc.), or can dogs digestive systems actually process this stuff with no problems?


E. coli actually normally exists in the intestines of humans (albeit, in small quantities) so when they make a huge deal about it I just laugh it off. I know that in larger quantities it can do some major damage so just handle the meat carefully and know where the meat is from and you shouldn't have a problem.


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## Lucy B

I've been feeding raw for quite a while now, but after looking at this site it seems quite a lot of people give their dogs an egg as well as meat. What are the main health benefits of this? How often do you feed an egg? Do you feed it with or without a shell? Sorry for all the questions but I thought I'd ask and see if it's a good idea


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## MagicRe

for me, it's another protein.....very rich, tho...

some feed the entire egg with the shell...some dogs will eat the entire egg with the shell....

eggs are, after all, the perfect food, right?  at least that's what television says.

mostly, it helps their coats and general health.

some feed it daily....

i think, it's whatever floats your boat as to how you want to serve it. 

some put it in a blender, shell and all, and serve it as a gravy with the rest of the meal...this is what we do, since our dogs won't eat the shell...they just roll it around on the floor 

but eggs are good for dogs....the salmonella scare that tends to surround raw eggs is mostly for humans, but dogs have such an acidic digestive system, salmonella doesn't stand a chance to make them sick..


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## Kess

Thanks for the link on adding fresh food to kibble. According to that article it's OK to mix kibble with raw as long as the dog can handle it (no stomach issues, etc). I also read elsewhere that as long as the kibble is grain free it's OK to mix the two as they probably digest about the same. It's only the kibble with grain and fillers that should not be mixed with raw. Is this true? Anybody heard of this?

Kess


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## MagicRe

Kess said:


> Thanks for the link on adding fresh food to kibble. According to that article it's OK to mix kibble with raw as long as the dog can handle it (no stomach issues, etc). I also read elsewhere that as long as the kibble is grain free it's OK to mix the two as they probably digest about the same. It's only the kibble with grain and fillers that should not be mixed with raw. Is this true? Anybody heard of this?
> 
> Kess


could you please point me to the article you read about grain free and no fillers being mixed with raw?


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## abi88

MagicRe said:


> Kess said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the link on adding fresh food to kibble. According to that article it's OK to mix kibble with raw as long as the dog can handle it (no stomach issues, etc). I also read elsewhere that as long as the kibble is grain free it's OK to mix the two as they probably digest about the same. It's only the kibble with grain and fillers that should not be mixed with raw. Is this true? Anybody heard of this?
> 
> Kess
> 
> 
> 
> could you please point me to the article you read about grain free and no fillers being mixed with raw?
Click to expand...

I also would love to read that article!


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## Kess

Sorry, I’m just starting to do raw so I’ve been doing so much reading and researching on raw food that I really can’t remember where exactly I read that. (It stuck in my head because my dog is currently on grain free kibble and I’m slowing transitioning to raw). I don’t think it was an article that I read, I think it may have been on another site where this topic came up and a few responses stated that as long as the kibble is grain free it is OK to mix with raw. That’s why I’m asking if anybody on here has ever heard that.


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## MagicRe

Kess said:


> Sorry, I’m just starting to do raw so I’ve been doing so much reading and researching on raw food that I really can’t remember where exactly I read that. (It stuck in my head because my dog is currently on grain free kibble and I’m slowing transitioning to raw). I don’t think it was an article that I read, I think it may have been on another site where this topic came up and a few responses stated that as long as the kibble is grain free it is OK to mix with raw. That’s why I’m asking if anybody on here has ever heard that.


when i was studying and researching raw....i had to separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak...what made sense. what didn't. since there are no scientific studies that i would pay any attention to....other than, maybe orijen's white paper....i can only go by the dog's anatomy and physiology...which is how they are built and why they are built that way....

i understand, kess....it's a real pain to know what is sensible and what is non sensible...because in the end, we all have to come up with our own conclusions...

but here's the short story of what i ended up believing, if this helps you out.

you don't have to go slowly when transitioning. fast 12 hours and jump right into the pool.

dogs cannot digest grains. they don't have the teeth and jaw structure for it nor do they have the digestive tract to absorb and utilise.

dogs are not herbivores.

dogs cannot digest veggies unless they are already pre digested for them. and if that is the case (cooking them, pureeing them,) then they don't eat veggies.

dogs eat what is as close to the natural state as possible. a chicken drumstick is natural. variety of proteins is natural.

kibble is not structured in the same way as raw, so any comparison is apples to elephants.

home cooking is not structured in the same way as raw, so any comparison is apples to elephants.

dogs don't do dairy. the bacteria in dairy screws with the acidity in a dog's gut, which is there to protect them from disease and salmonella and e. coli and all kinds of things.

dairy is filled with bacteria that off balances the dog's natural bacteria already present. dairy fed dogs generally have sensitive stomachs and either SIBO or IBD....

to feed a dog raw is actually pretty simple. start with one protein, feed for a week. feed another protein and keep going. make sure the dog can eat the protein offered, which is why i say give one protein a week.

then start organs..liver first....in small almond sized pieces and build up . these are vitamins for dogs and should account for about 5%. other organs should account for the other 5%.

heart is not an organ. it's a muscle. so is lung. heart is good. num. num.


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## abi88

What Re said is SOO SPOT ON!!!!

I was in your boat, I planned on slowly swapping the boys over, then Re(and others) convinced me to JUST DO ITTT!!!! And I did, and it's AWESOME!! I will never turn back!! All 3 of my boys, and the kitty, are soo much healthier, softer, happier!!!


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## Kess

Thank you for your comments. I’m starting slowly because, like most in the beginning, I’m afraid, LOL! I was feeding the kibble along with either ground beef, chicken or turkey. I’ve been doing this for about 2 weeks. So far, she’s been doing great. But, I guess it’s time to stop the kibble and move on to meat with bone. Being that she has been given those different proteins already with no problems, does that mean she is already used to them or is ground meat different from bone in meat? In other words, can I give her a beef rib now or do I still just give a chicken wing for a week and then add beef with bone later?

Also, she’s a small dog (8 pounds) so later when I start with liver, would an “almond size piece” be good to start with or should it be smaller for her? What about gizzards, is that an organ? They sell a package of chicken gizzards and hearts at my local supermarket.


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## MagicRe

well, five per cent of her food will come from liver and the other five per cent comes from other organs, such as kidney..

so at 8 pounds, she's eating approximately 3.2 oz per day....depending on her metabolism, of course and her level of exercise...that number could go up or down by a few ounces....so she needs a total of 1.5 oz or organ...per week, if my math is right....

if you were to give her almond size pieces three times a week, you'll most likely have met her needs...and then feed her 1.5 oz per week of kidney or another organ....keeping in mind that gizzards are a muscle meat, not an organ....as is heart..that is also a muscle meat...richer than others but still a muscle meat.

cornish game hens are perfect for her....the bones are smaller....ground beef..not so much..doesn't give her teeth much of a work out...you want her to use her jaw and her mouth and her teeth for crunching bones and breaking down meat....

and fish....definitely give her fish at some point..

but start with chicken...then move to turkey...then to pork...then to fish....then to beef.....after she is transitioned fully, you want to feed as much red meat as you can...

for boney meals, cornish game hens, chicken, quail, pheasant, pork ribs, lamb ribs, lamb breast..i'm sure there are others, but for now, breasts and backs would be a great start..

and then when you put the piece of chicken down for her.....close your eyes and anticipate that first crunch...because after the first one that scares hell out of you, you'll want that second one....


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## Kess

MagicRe,

Thank you for breaking that down for me. This is so helpful! It seems many on here have larger dogs and it was difficult for me to figure the amounts…math was never my best subject!


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## txdalgal

Question to Dalmatian raw feeders. For non-Dal owners--Dals have the uric acid issue, they are not supposed to eat organ meats, beef, nightshade vegetables, and other foods that produce uric acid. Here is the regimen that I have been using for 15 years or so. http://www.humangradedogfood.net/my-homemade-barf-recipe/

(I finally put it on a website because I got tired of explaining it to my friends who never followed through with it) I have recently added frozen chicken wings as a treat for my dogs (it's very hot here) to supplement their calcium needs.

I'm impressed by the knowledge that others on this forum have about feeding raw since almost all of my friends just feed kibble and I don't have other local resources. I am interested in hearing what other Dalmatian owners are raw feeding their dogs sp I can add some variety to my dogs' diet. I have access to Whole Foods that usually carries most kinds of meat. Please comment on my current feeding method and offer your feeding advice.


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## MagicRe

txdalgal said:


> Question to Dalmatian raw feeders. For non-Dal owners--Dals have the uric acid issue, they are not supposed to eat organ meats, beef, nightshade vegetables, and other foods that produce uric acid. Here is the regimen that I have been using for 15 years or so. http://www.humangradedogfood.net/my-homemade-barf-recipe/
> 
> (I finally put it on a website because I got tired of explaining it to my friends who never followed through with it) I have recently added frozen chicken wings as a treat for my dogs (it's very hot here) to supplement their calcium needs.
> 
> I'm impressed by the knowledge that others on this forum have about feeding raw since almost all of my friends just feed kibble and I don't have other local resources. I am interested in hearing what other Dalmatian owners are raw feeding their dogs sp I can add some variety to my dogs' diet. I have access to Whole Foods that usually carries most kinds of meat. Please comment on my current feeding method and offer your feeding advice.


are you saying your dal has uric acid issues or all dalmations.....because that's simply not true.....they might be prone to high levels of uric acid...in which case there are feeding limits....but it's something that has to be proven first..and that's easily done with a urine test and blood test.

i have a friend who has a black russian terrier with the same problem and she is very careful about what she feeds.....it's part raw, part cooked and there are veggies....but no veggies that would cause a spike in uric acid....

can't comment on your diet, since i don't know anything about hyperuricemia.

the one ingredient i would never feed any dog is flax seed. it is irritating to the bowels and is often used as a laxative.

surely, there is something else that would do the same thing without the harshness of flax..

my other concern would be the marrow bones. they are teeth breakers. and if it hasn't happened to you, then you're lucky....but it's your risk to take....weight bearing animals are hard on teeth....


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## Dozer2010

ok so I have some questions.....

first thing.... we dont have a butcher shop near by so its the grocery store for us. can I just feed ground beef and turkey.....maybe some pork chops and ckn livers and fish???? 

I bought some "Deli Fresh" rolls todayat petco and apparently its not really "raw" food for dogs. 

second thing...if its going to cost too much $$ to go to the grocery store and get meat, what and where can I order online and know that Im getting the "true" ingredients???? none of our local pet stores have raw food.


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## Kathyy

All those meats are fine, just cut out the sharp sawn bones in chops.

If I could only feed chicken, beef for organs and meat, pork and some fatty fish I would be fine with it. If the only beef meat was ground and the only pork was shoulder roast I would be fine. If I could only feed chicken and beef liver, fine.

There are lots of reputable raw food companies out there. In your area is Texas Tripe I think.
http://www.texastripe.com/


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## txdalgal

MagicRe said:


> are you saying your dal has uric acid issues or all dalmations.....because that's simply not true.....they might be prone to high levels of uric acid...in which case there are feeding limits....but it's something that has to be proven first..and that's easily done with a urine test and blood test.
> 
> i have a friend who has a black russian terrier with the same problem and she is very careful about what she feeds.....it's part raw, part cooked and there are veggies....but no veggies that would cause a spike in uric acid....
> 
> can't comment on your diet, since i don't know anything about hyperuricemia.
> 
> the one ingredient i would never feed any dog is flax seed. it is irritating to the bowels and is often used as a laxative.
> 
> surely, there is something else that would do the same thing without the harshness of flax..
> 
> my other concern would be the marrow bones. they are teeth breakers. and if it hasn't happened to you, then you're lucky....but it's your risk to take....weight bearing animals are hard on teeth....


Thank you for taking time to comment. Dalmatians cannot convert uric acid to allantoin. This is true of all Dalmatians--it is caused by a genetic mutation. Not all Dalmatians form stones because of it. http://www.thedogplace.org/Genetics/Dalmatian-DNA-09012.asp Knock on wood, I have never had a stone producing Dal.

It would be interesting to know what kind of stones your friend's black Russian terrier had. It's unlikely the dog had urate stones that are found in Dalmatians and bulldogs. More likely they were struvite or oxalate stones and each is treated differently.

Never had any trouble with the flax seed oil. Yes, I've read other comments in the forum about marrow bones. I guess I've been lucky with those and the knuckle bones as well as I've never had problems with these either. My dogs just have really clean teeth from gnawing on them.


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## MagicRe

txdalgal said:


> Thank you for taking time to comment. Dalmatians cannot convert uric acid to allantoin. This is true of all Dalmatians--it is caused by a genetic mutation. Not all Dalmatians form stones because of it. http://www.thedogplace.org/Genetics/Dalmatian-DNA-09012.asp Knock on wood, I have never had a stone producing Dal.
> 
> It would be interesting to know what kind of stones your friend's black Russian terrier had. It's unlikely the dog had urate stones that are found in Dalmatians and bulldogs. More likely they were struvite or oxalate stones and each is treated differently.
> 
> Never had any trouble with the flax seed oil. Yes, I've read other comments in the forum about marrow bones. I guess I've been lucky with those and the knuckle bones as well as I've never had problems with these either. My dogs just have really clean teeth from gnawing on them.


my apologies. i read what i read wrong. i will find out what kind of stones her russian black terrier has....don't mind being wrong and finding out what's right, but don't want to spout off the top of my head when my senility has kicked in today.


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## mishypuppy

I have been reading and reading and have seen loads of pages on raw feeding. I read somewhere that if i buy fresh meats that it is important to freeze for three days before feeding. If i bought fresh chicken, do i really need to freeze it before serving? I have tried to find this answer, but am getting nowhere.

I have four dogs ranging from 3 to 6 years, all healthy.

Thanks so much!


----------



## abi88

mishypuppy said:


> I have been reading and reading and have seen loads of pages on raw feeding. I read somewhere that if i buy fresh meats that it is important to freeze for three days before feeding. If i bought fresh chicken, do i really need to freeze it before serving? I have tried to find this answer, but am getting nowhere.
> 
> I have four dogs ranging from 3 to 6 years, all healthy.
> 
> Thanks so much!


No it is not if you are getting human grade. I feed fresh from the source all the time!


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## mishypuppy

Oh, good news! Thanks so much!


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## abi88

mishypuppy said:


> Oh, good news! Thanks so much!


 No problem!

For us in the NW, we DO have to freeze any fresh fish, that is caught up here, for at least 2 weeks-I prefer the thought of a month at least....but that is because of the things that effect fish up here in the PNW!


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## kelii36

I just started feeding my puppy raw, and am having a hard time figuring out how much to feed. He's going to be about 60 pounds when he's grown up. I don't have a scale yet, so how many chicken legs/thighs and organ meat should he be getting a day?


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## abi88

kelii36 said:


> I just started feeding my puppy raw, and am having a hard time figuring out how much to feed. He's going to be about 60 pounds when he's grown up. I don't have a scale yet, so how many chicken legs/thighs and organ meat should he be getting a day?


First off YAY for starting!!. 

However, don't start adding organs till your AT LEAST 4 weeks into it, our you run a huge risk of having "cannon butt"!! (and you will SLOWLY add organs even then, but right now don't even worry about them!)
And he should get between 2 and 4% of his adult body weight, (ime start him off at 3% and then adjust up of down as he needs!)The chickens and quarters I get up here generally a leg quarter is about 1lbs.

(oh and if you still happen to have the enhanced stuff, IMO rince it off before giving to him)

And then as you watch his poops, if they are crumbly cut back the amount of bone an if it is super loose take the skin off for a couple days!


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## Kathyy

An easy to read digital scale is a fun kitchen tool to have around, look around for one. I was surprised that my precisely measured macaroni and cheese wasn't all that horrible a meal for instance and that Max loses 4-8 grams of fur when he gets a good grooming.

In the meanwhile you could look at the total weight of the package of chicken bits, count up the bits within and that would be approximately the size of one of the bits. As in you bought a pack of chicken thighs weighing 7 pounds and there are 12 thighs in the pack. Each thigh would be nearly .6 of a pound or 9.3 ounces.

A 60 pound adult dog would start raw with 2% which is 1.2 pounds or 19 ounces a day total. In time, if dog gets fluffy - feed less, if dog gets ribby - feed more.

Bony chicken until poop is nice so the gut is used to the new diet! Take off the skin for the first couple meals just in case and don't over feed!


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## mom24doggies

I would like to know if I'm giving Trev enough variety in his diet. He eats chicken (usually drumsticks, thighs, and wings), pork (ground or shoulder, along with chopped neck bones for recreational chewing.), beef (ground, but not as often, it's expensive!), ground turkey (sometimes) and canned mackerel (doesn't like raw fish, for some reason.). For his liver/organs he gets chicken liver/kidney, tripe, and beef liver. I supplement his food with calcium if he's eating mostly ground meat that meal, vitamin C for his flat feet, and a coat supplement. He also gets some vegetables/fruit and occasionally some rice. 

I don't think I missed anything! Does that sound varied enough? TIA!


----------



## abi88

mom24doggies said:


> I would like to know if I'm giving Trev enough variety in his diet. He eats chicken (usually drumsticks, thighs, and wings), pork (ground or shoulder, along with chopped neck bones for recreational chewing.), beef (ground, but not as often, it's expensive!), ground turkey (sometimes) and canned mackerel (doesn't like raw fish, for some reason.). For his liver/organs he gets chicken liver/kidney, tripe, and beef liver. I supplement his food with calcium if he's eating mostly ground meat that meal, vitamin C for his flat feet, and a coat supplement. He also gets some vegetables/fruit and occasionally some rice.
> 
> I don't think I missed anything! Does that sound varied enough? TIA!


Why not do real meat and ditch the ground? I don't like doing ground as it doesn't allow for the ripping and tearing, and as you stated you tend to need to add bone supplements. I can get cheaper cuts of meat then I can ground! Also, IMO, ditch the rice. 

Oh and BTW, Tripe is fed as meat not organs(same as heart!)


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## mom24doggies

abi88 said:


> Why not do real meat and ditch the ground? I don't like doing ground as it doesn't allow for the ripping and tearing, and as you stated you tend to need to add bone supplements. I can get cheaper cuts of meat then I can ground! Also, IMO, ditch the rice.
> 
> Oh and BTW, Tripe is fed as meat not organs(same as heart!)


 Oh, I didn't know that about the tripe; thanks for letting me know. I feed him some ground meat because he isn't strong enough to crunch the bones of beef/pork, (sometimes the chicken bones take him awhile) but I want him to be able to eat those meats. Same with the turkey, I'm pretty sure he could eat turkey necks, but can't find them. Maybe once he matures a bit more (he's a 7.5 mo miniature poodle) he'll be able to handle pork/beef bones? 
Here where I am, ground is much cheaper than either pork/beef with bone in. I can usually get ground for at/slightly below $1/lb, while when they have bone in it's closer to $2. As for the rice, he doesn't get that often, maybe 2 or 3 times a month, but I can drop it all together, he just seems to like it. Thanks for your help!


----------



## MagicRe

abi88 said:


> Why not do real meat and ditch the ground? I don't like doing ground as it doesn't allow for the ripping and tearing, and as you stated you tend to need to add bone supplements. I can get cheaper cuts of meat then I can ground! Also, IMO, ditch the rice.
> 
> Oh and BTW, Tripe is fed as meat not organs(same as heart!)


i was gonna say the same thing 

if this is a new dog starting on raw, then chicken bones are the softest...try a drumstick and see what happens....


----------



## abi88

mom24doggies said:


> Oh, I didn't know that about the tripe; thanks for letting me know. I feed him some ground meat because he isn't strong enough to crunch the bones of beef/pork, (sometimes the chicken bones take him awhile) but I want him to be able to eat those meats. Same with the turkey, I'm pretty sure he could eat turkey necks, but can't find them. Maybe once he matures a bit more (he's a 7.5 mo miniature poodle) he'll be able to handle pork/beef bones?
> Here where I am, ground is much cheaper than either pork/beef with bone in. I can usually get ground for at/slightly below $1/lb, while when they have bone in it's closer to $2. As for the rice, he doesn't get that often, maybe 2 or 3 times a month, but I can drop it all together, he just seems to like it. Thanks for your help!


No problem about the tripe, I didnt know it either until I looked into it a little more! (My boys do love it though!)

That is fine that he isnt strong enough to crunch/eat the bone, but I would still be giving him the meat for the jaw strengthening and for the fact that it gives him something more to do! I would doubt that he will ever be able to eat most of the lager prey's bones...but just the gnawing on and working at is good for them! 

That stinks about the prices! Have you looked into co-ops in your area? Farmers/ranchers/hunters? Posted wanted adds on craigslist/kijiji/feecycle? (Ive gotten over 300lbs of free meat in the past month from my looking for adds...I would be happy to share my wording, just PM me!)



MagicRe said:


> *i was gonna say the same thing *
> 
> if this is a new dog starting on raw, then chicken bones are the softest...try a drumstick and see what happens....



Well you(and a few others) HAVE taught me well!!


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## mom24doggies

MagicRe said:


> if this is a new dog starting on raw, then chicken bones are the softest...try a drumstick and see what happens....


 Well, I don't know about new, I've had him on it for like 2 or 3 months. And he handles chicken bones ok, it just takes him a little longer.  



> That is fine that he isnt strong enough to crunch/eat the bone, but I would still be giving him the meat for the jaw strengthening and for the fact that it gives him something more to do! I would doubt that he will ever be able to eat most of the lager prey's bones...but just the gnawing on and working at is good for them!
> 
> That stinks about the prices! Have you looked into co-ops in your area? Farmers/ranchers/hunters? Posted wanted adds on craigslist/kijiji/feecycle? (Ive gotten over 300lbs of free meat in the past month from my looking for adds...I would be happy to share my wording, just PM me


OK, maybe I can give him some bone-in beef/pork once or twice a week then. That will give him some extra chewing and won't break my bank.  

I did look into co-ops a long time ago, I guess I could look again; the one I found in my area required that I do stuff for them though, and I'm not sure I would have time. The craigslist ad is a good idea though, I would love to see how you word it! I'll PM you for sure. thanks again!


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## abi88

mom24doggies said:


> Well, I don't know about new, I've had him on it for like 2 or 3 months. And he handles chicken bones ok, it just takes him a little longer.
> 
> 
> OK, maybe I can give him some bone-in beef/pork once or twice a week then. That will give him some extra chewing and won't break my bank.
> 
> *I did look into co-ops a long time ago, I guess I could look again; the one I found in my area required that I do stuff for them though, and I'm not sure I would have time.* The craigslist ad is a good idea though, I would love to see how you word it! I'll PM you for sure. thanks again!


Well believe me, if you have a co-op around, IMO, join! We are a one car house hold with husband working (I am now also, but that is only within the last 2/3 weeks) but I have picked up a couple little things and dropped/held some stuff off for mine and believe me the deals that Ive gotten have been well worth it!! (We are soon getting 35-50lbs calves for a flat $35!! That is as low as 0$.70/lbs!)
(Where are you located?)

Also if you have any processing plants around you can normally get their "scraps" as well. Or look into and see if you can find any restaurant suppliers around who sell to the general public!


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## Kathyy

mom24doggies said:


> I would like to know if I'm giving Trev enough variety in his diet. He eats chicken (usually drumsticks, thighs, and wings), pork (ground or shoulder, along with chopped neck bones for recreational chewing.), beef (ground, but not as often, it's expensive!), ground turkey (sometimes) and canned mackerel (doesn't like raw fish, for some reason.). For his liver/organs he gets chicken liver/kidney, tripe, and beef liver. I supplement his food with calcium if he's eating mostly ground meat that meal, vitamin C for his flat feet, and a coat supplement. He also gets some vegetables/fruit and occasionally some rice.
> 
> I don't think I missed anything! Does that sound varied enough? TIA!


No chopped neck bones! See if you can buy them before they are chopped up though. See if you can find racks of BBQ beef ribs on sale this summer too, they are great big meals.

Your organ variety is fine but tripe isn't an organ.

Agree, use whole meats if you can afford them. Google "pink slime" if you want to know more about how an awful lot of ground meat is made these days.

Canned fish is okay and if you must feed some rice and veggie/fruit go for it but it doesn't count as part of his 2%.

Remember chicken is overall 30% bone, you can feed 2 boneless meals to each bony chicken meal and be providing the right amount of calcium. I doubt you need to add calcium to the boneless meals.

I like to feed chicken for its bone content which means Max mostly gets feet, head/neck and rib sections at the moment. I like to be sure at least half the diet is red meat. I want to either feed the equivalent of a day's worth of high omega fish or fish oil capsules, not liquid. I want to use half beef liver for its copper but not all the liver should be beef.

You are doing fine according to my guidelines. Add in an egg every so often, I generally forget but they are good stuff too.


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## MagicRe

the more workout he gets, the better it is for you and for him....so pork ribs are great, even if it takes an hour to plow thru...


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## mom24doggies

Kathyy said:


> No chopped neck bones! See if you can buy them before they are chopped up though. See if you can find racks of BBQ beef ribs on sale this summer too, they are great big meals.
> 
> Your organ variety is fine but tripe isn't an organ.
> 
> Agree, use whole meats if you can afford them. Google "pink slime" if you want to know more about how an awful lot of ground meat is made these days.
> 
> Canned fish is okay and if you must feed some rice and veggie/fruit go for it but it doesn't count as part of his 2%.
> 
> Remember chicken is overall 30% bone, you can feed 2 boneless meals to each bony chicken meal and be providing the right amount of calcium. I doubt you need to add calcium to the boneless meals.
> 
> I like to feed chicken for its bone content which means Max mostly gets feet, head/neck and rib sections at the moment. I like to be sure at least half the diet is red meat. I want to either feed the equivalent of a day's worth of high omega fish or fish oil capsules, not liquid. I want to use half beef liver for its copper but not all the liver should be beef.
> 
> You are doing fine according to my guidelines. Add in an egg every so often, I generally forget but they are good stuff too.


 Thanks for your help.  I really appreciate it! And I didn't know that about chicken, glad you told me!

Responding to spammers


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## xxxxdogdragoness

Ewwwwwwww! I just googled pink slime... Gross! No more ground beef for mr... Or the dogs! Only whole meat from now on, or ground turkey... Unless that isn't safe anymore! *-*


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## MagicRe

dogdragoness said:


> Ewwwwwwww! I just googled pink slime... Gross! No more ground beef for mr... Or the dogs! Only whole meat from now on, or ground turkey... Unless that isn't safe anymore! *-*


i know...isn't it gross....and it's the same for ground anything.....turkey necks are good


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## xxxxdogdragoness

So no ground turkey, or pork... How am I supposed to make hamburger helper & chili now??? O_O. I guess I could make the chili with stew meat cut into really small chunks I guess... No wonder how many ppl are turning to vegan, vegetarian, & tofu.


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## abi88

dogdragoness said:


> So no ground turkey, or pork... How am I supposed to make hamburger helper & chili now??? O_O. I guess I could make the chili with stew meat cut into really small chunks I guess... No wonder how many ppl are turning to vegan, vegetarian, & tofu.


Stew meat is GREAT in chilly! as is Ham/Bacon! 


and Re, ya know I always knew that I didnt like the idea of mass produced ground meat, now I know why!!


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## MagicRe

dogdragoness said:


> So no ground turkey, or pork... How am I supposed to make hamburger helper & chili now??? O_O. I guess I could make the chili with stew meat cut into really small chunks I guess... No wonder how many ppl are turning to vegan, vegetarian, & tofu.


real chili is made up of pork cubes and steak cubes or sirloin cubes and stew meat cubes...actually, chili was a leftover dish back in the day, so everything was put in it....at least, that's how we did it in texas.

i still use ground meat, but it's organic ground meat.....for me. and i cook the hell out of it...


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## petlover84

When you decide to feed your dog with raw meat, make sure that you know the daily nutrients requirement of your dog. Try to incorporate meats form various animals such as such chicken, turkey, pork and beef. Introduce each one gradually, ideally one kind of meat per week. Adding meat organ such as liver is also important, this will make sure that dog is getting the nutrients that its body needs. 
Switching from raw to kibble depends on the preference of your dog. There are some dogs that can switch from one food to another without trouble.


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## BluetickMama

I didn't read it all but the best advice I can give is to go slow!!! We feed PMR (Prey Model Raw) which is strictly meat, bones, and organs. Anyhow, when introducing new proteins, take it slow. I know it's fun to see what your dog will do with a new meat, but it's not worth the cannon butt.


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## MagicRe

BluetickMama said:


> I didn't read it all but the best advice I can give is to go slow!!! We feed PMR (Prey Model Raw) which is strictly meat, bones, and organs. Anyhow, when introducing new proteins, take it slow. I know it's fun to see what your dog will do with a new meat, but it's not worth the cannon butt.


amen to that.....


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## Daenerys

abi88 said:


> What Re said is SOO SPOT ON!!!!
> 
> I was in your boat, I planned on slowly swapping the boys over, then Re(and others) convinced me to JUST DO ITTT!!!! And I did, and it's AWESOME!! I will never turn back!! All 3 of my boys, *and the kitty*, are soo much healthier, softer, happier!!!


Do cats eat raw about the same way as dogs do, or are there different rules to it? I have 2 cats too and I am switching my dogs to raw soon so if I can do the cats too that'd be great. 

If cats are different could you PM me some sources so I can research it?


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## abi88

Daenerys said:


> Do cats eat raw about the same way as dogs do, or are there different rules to it? I have 2 cats too and I am switching my dogs to raw soon so if I can do the cats too that'd be great.
> 
> If cats are different could you PM me some sources so I can research it?


It is pretty much the same, slightly less bone is what most people go by..and you need to make sure that they are getting their taurine(So I just make sure that the girls get stuff that has only been thawed and frozen once!) And it *can* be slightly harder to get cats to move to raw then dogs...so that it when you enlist the help of either canned food or canned in water fish.(I did the canned in water tuna....worked WONDERS!) I will PM you a couple links!


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## Aisell

I gave my Bono raw diet. He've sometimes problems with his wight, he lose it easily. I realy hope this will help him! Try it may be your dog will love it more than other foods


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## MayaTheLab

Our 2 labs get plenty of fresh produce and we occasionally feed them raw venison when we have it. Their normal diet is California Natural dry food.

In talking to our vet today he recommended boiling the venison due to concerns about e coli or salmonella. This is venison I harvest and do the processing myself and am very attentive to cleanliness.


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## jasper21

Hello - can I have some advice please. Our puppy is 8.5 months old and we are thinking about feeding raw and have made a tentative start by trying him with some lamb leg bones (in addition to his normal kibble). Firstly he seems frightened of them, he barks and barks at them and backs away. Eventually he settles down for a good chew however. His poo the next day after getting a bone is full of undigested fragments of bone and I found quite a large piece in it this morning, is this normal?


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## Kathyy

Lamb bone is harder than chicken bone and he ate too much bone AND his system isn't up to speed digesting bone yet. Dogs can poop out amazing stuff without damaging their innards. Sassy pooped out a shard of ceramic once and commonly pooped out whole cup o noodle cups and plastic wrap - she wasn't a very large dog either, 42 pounds.

Go buy a bunch of chicken, whole or quarters is the usual type that is cheapest. Make sure it isn't enhanced [the nutrition box will read that sodium is under 100 mg per serving]. Cut into bits that are 2-3% of his anticipated healthy adult weight and feed one of those bits a day total. You probably will want to feed 2 times a day at first and take off the easy to remove skin for the first couple of days as well.


----------



## jasper21

Kathyy said:


> Lamb bone is harder than chicken bone and he ate too much bone AND his system isn't up to speed digesting bone yet. Dogs can poop out amazing stuff without damaging their innards. Sassy pooped out a shard of ceramic once and commonly pooped out whole cup o noodle cups and plastic wrap - she wasn't a very large dog either, 42 pounds.
> 
> Go buy a bunch of chicken, whole or quarters is the usual type that is cheapest. Make sure it isn't enhanced [the nutrition box will read that sodium is under 100 mg per serving]. Cut into bits that are 2-3% of his anticipated healthy adult weight and feed one of those bits a day total. You probably will want to feed 2 times a day at first and take off the easy to remove skin for the first couple of days as well.


Thanks very much for the advice Kathy. I've got some chicken wings but he won't go near them (at the moment). He does the same thing, barks and jumps around and backs away. I'm not sure if it's fear or excitement. I tried again this morning and he has started having a lick and carrying it from room to room but no attempts to eat it yet. (he will eat pieces of cooked chicken fine)

I've read that when making the change to raw that you can starve a dog for a day to make them really hungry before you start but never to starve a puppy, so as Japser is only 8 months, I can't do that. Also from a practical point , if we are going to do raw, we will really need to buy another freezer for the garage as our kitchen one is really small and I want to make sure he will take to raw first.


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## Kathyy

It isn't either all raw or all cooked or all kibble. You can mix it up if you like. If you feed his usual food once a day and offer up the chicken for the other meal in a couple days he will get hungry enough to dig in and you won't be starving him. It is tiny pups that shouldn't miss meals, he is large enough to skip one a day. 

He was learning about the new food, keep on giving him chances to figure it out. It is smart to taste a few times before eating a new food, think how wild mushroom hunters test a new fungi. Lick and wait, lick and wait, teensy nibble and wait, etcetera. Do maintain your criteria for acceptable eating [or playing] spots! If you want to get him going you can heat a pan, drop the chicken in until it smells good and offer him the smellier chicken. The skin will have started to cook but the bone and meat should be cold.

I need a freezer to take advantage of lower meat prices when boxes are purchased. If I was buying from the grocery store I found that the 20 pounds of meat that fed Max for a good month fit on just 2/3 of one freezer shelf. That is basically the weight of a large turkey, if I disjointed that turkey it would take much less room. I packed daily baggies and squished them together. That way I could take advantage of better deals I found from the weekly flyers and discounted meats in the clearance bin. I am very glad to have a freezer for dog meat but I managed fine for over a year without one. Multiply out how much meat he is going to need for a week and month, it doesn't take as much room as you might think.


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## jasper21

Thank you so much kathyy for the advice now I know excatly what to do. I'll persevere with the chicken for now.


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## JulieK1967

Kathyy said:


> It isn't either all raw or all cooked or all kibble. You can mix it up if you like. If you feed his usual food once a day and offer up the chicken for the other meal in a couple days he will get hungry enough to dig in and you won't be starving him. It is tiny pups that shouldn't miss meals, he is large enough to skip one a day.


My understanding is that this is not the optimal way to switch a dog to raw. The different foods digest differently and feeding all of this at once can really throw a dog's system out of whack. All the advice for raw feeders I've seen has been to commit to raw and avoid everything else, esp. mixing kibble & raw.


----------



## Kathyy

The different foods digesting differently is an internet myth. Dogs have terrific digestive tracts that can handle almost any food and even we humans eat cooked, raw, dehyrated foods at any meal and do just fine. 

The either my way or the highway is difficult for some dog personalities and some humans too. Max will not eat if offered only something new. He went 3 days with no food when all that was on offer was a salmon head but as part of a meal he would eat a bit of salmon head. Getting the kibble gone is for the human's benefit. If you don't have it in the house you cannot cave in if there is yucky poop or the dog takes 'too long' to eat.

It is more the total amount of food and the amount of fat and bone that counts towards a nasty transition. This pup is missing a meal a day at present so definitely not being overfed! Once the pup gets the idea the kibble will be off the menu for good.


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## aussiemamma

I'm not sure how to post links just yet, but preymodelraw.com is a wonderful raw site. I havn't read through all these posts, so if it has been mentioned already I apologize. But, it IS a really good one!


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## chubby

Butters is eating whole chicken, but sometimes her poo is extremely liquidy after, and other times, it's more solid. How do I feed chicken whole, when she's having watery stool from it? 

I need help!


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## Kathyy

Do you weigh it out so you know you aren't giving her too much food? Poor Max only gets about 10 ounces a day and he weighs 38 pounds. A normal adult 50 pound dog would start at about 16 ounces of food total per day.

If weight isn't the problem maybe fat is. One reason chicken is a good starting food is the fat is mostly in the skin. Take off the skin, all of it as well as any little globs of fat you see. If you are offering the thigh and back then there may be a dark red organ tucked in there, that is the kidney. Take that out as well.

If she is actually having urgent bowel movements then skip a regular meal but if they are normal but nasty try the defatted carefully weighed meal at the usual time.

If you are really sick of the whole thing go right to super bony back and ribs with all the skin and fat removed and feed only that until poop is normal. Then you can decrease the amount of bone fed and increase the meat a very small amount at a time. The small bones in the back and ribs were easier for Max to eat than the long leg and wing bones when he started out.


----------



## chubby

Hi Kathyy,

Thank you! I didn't know we're not supposed to feed the skin/fat? I've been leaving the skin (Ex. on the chicken wing and drumsticks) on, 

I will try to feed her less, because I've basically been letting her eat until she's full, as a lot of people who feed RAW say that they just throw the whole thing down and re-freeze it once it's done? 

It's really hard to cut into the back part


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## Kathyy

You are supposed to feed the skin and fat but retraining the dog's gut to eat low bulk high fat food means modifying it to be low fat and higher bulk just at first for lots of dogs.

Some people are highly skilled and can do the let the dog eat its fill. Me, not so much. If you want to feed big/small then the dog's gut needs to work up to it and it is more advanced feeding anyway, not for a new to raw dog.

You may be confusing the feed the new to raw dog something really big so it doesn't gulp with the feed the dog something really big like wolves eat. To do the gulping thing do offer a whole chicken *but * know how much the dog *should * eat and at that point trade for the rest of the big bit. 

What is your dog's ideal weight? If it happens to be 50 pounds then you could buy 4 pound chickens and let her eat about one quarter of it then trade her for a yummy bit of cheese or whatever. Next feeding do the same and you might get away with another one but put the remainder in the freezer for when she is a more sensible eater.


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## chubby

Hi,

Butters' ideal weight is 10-12 pounds; right now she's 8 months old, and I believe bordering around 9 pounds, though her ribs aren't as easy to feel as before when she was really young,

She doesn't gulp her food down, even if it's in small pieces - she's a very slow eater, and really takes her time, first licking, then eating the skin, then chewing like crazy just to get one small piece off. Her chewing power is fairly weak, evidenced by her almost perfect condition chew toys despite constant gnawing, but she will finish her meal in maybe 40 minutes?


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## Kathyy

Sounds like you can weigh out her meals then safely. 2% is for big dogs, might be better to weigh out 3% for right now and increase if she gets a bit ribby in a few day. That would be about 4.5-5 ounces of food a day. If she is eating twice a day feeding cornish game hens would be super easy as they are just over a pound around here and she could have two joints a day until her poop settles down. They cost a lot more than chicken but the bone would easier for her to deal with and sometimes that helps.


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## Sasha1/2

Is it possible to create a balanced diet for a dog with primarily whole rabbits? I have found a local producer that isn't expensive. What if I supplemented with chicken wings, backs and necks; beef liver; eggs and the occassional wild deer that I'll probably be able to get? I'm very squeamish about feeding whole rabbit, but I'm willing to give it a try.


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## MagicRe

no it is not possible to make rabbit the main, simply because rabbits do not have the fat to keep dogs healthy.

even if you supplement with chicken wings, backs and necks, you're supplementing with very bony parts of a nutritionally less than protein of all the proteins.

so combining chicken bone with rabbit, which is very lean and very bony, you'd be giving too much bone.....eggs are good...but wild deer is what you would want to make the main meal....and anything that is a red meat will do.....any game will do.....

the four proteins that most people feed are: chicken, turkey, pork, and beef, generally in the form of heart.

what you're thinking about is nutritionally deficient....for a dog.


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## Sasha1/2

Thanks, MagicRe


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## Sasha1/2

Could I get feedback on this, please? Sasha weighs about 40lbs now. 

- When no raw bones, give calcium (1 Tums) per homemade meal
- Supplement with ½ a human adult multivitamin daily
- 8 oz of red meat per meal with raw bones; rabbit and venison are too lean to feed exclusively; add 50% fatty pork
- 1 or 2 meals of fish per week or 1 canned sardine per day
- 1.5 oz of beef liver per day (5% of diet or 250mg choline)
- 1 gram taurine
- 1 tsp fish oil or olive oil per meal
- 1 whole egg, raw or lightly cooked, (shell opt.) per week
- up to 1 cup of grains per day (opt.)
- up to 1 cup of veggies per day (opt.)


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## Kathyy

Sasha1/2 said:


> Could I get feedback on this, please? Sasha weighs about 40lbs now.
> 
> - When no raw bones, give calcium (1 Tums) per homemade meal *I wouldn't give tums, grind up a dry egg shell and mix in 1/2 tsp per pound of meat instead.*
> - Supplement with ½ a human adult multivitamin daily *No vitamins needed for prey model diet.*
> - 8 oz of red meat per meal with raw bones; rabbit and venison are too lean to feed exclusively; add 50% fatty pork *Good.*
> - 1 or 2 meals of fish per week or 1 canned sardine per day *Great.*
> - 1.5 oz of beef liver per day (5% of diet or 250mg choline) *Choline isn't a substitute for liver*
> - 1 gram taurine *Not necessary.*
> - 1 tsp fish oil or olive oil per meal *Olive oil only provides inflammatory omega 6 which is already plentiful in the diet, fish oil good.*
> - 1 whole egg, raw or lightly cooked, (shell opt.) per week *More would be fine for her, Max gets 2 or 3 and he is 38 full grown.*
> - up to 1 cup of grains per day (opt.) *Cooked grain I hope! And NOT whole grain. A study showed that dogs fed brown rice and lamb kibble had low blood taurine levels!!!*
> - up to 1 cup of veggies per day (opt.) *If she eats and digests them okay, Max won't eat and doesn't digest them. Canned pumpkin came out unchanged - that is as cooked as it gets!*


How much are you feeding her? Three 8 ounces meals a day? A 4 month pup probably will double her weight at maturity so needs about 1.5 pounds of meats a day. Grains and veggies are extra.

More organ variety would be good. I do like beef liver but pork liver would be good too and the kidneys of those animals is a good thing.


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## Sasha1/2

Sasha gets about 8 oz of meat per meal, three meals per day. She does eat whole eggs, shell and all, about two per week. It is difficult for me to find reasonably priced meats and organs and we're watching for allergies, so her diet doesn't have a lot of variety yet. We're going slow. She does like raw carrots and she'll have a bit of our leftover steamed veggies; Sasha loves celery and broccoli. As for the grains, this is more of a treat than a staple; she'll have a bit of rice or oatmeal when we have leftovers, but I don't cook this just for her.


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## MagicRe

if you want to give calcium in another form, please use egg shells...never tums.

take eggs and fry yourself some eggs...wash the shell and air dry them. then using a coffee grinder that has never had coffee or anything else ground into it, and grind the shells...i believe it's 900 mg = 1 tsp. 

maybe someone will correct me....

you can feed the egg and if you're going to feed an egg, feed it raw...with the shell.

no grains. no veggies. she doesn't need them, especially when you are first transitioning.

no human multivitamin during transition...so her body can adapt.

she's not losing nutrition during transition...

were you planning on not feeding edible bones? 

if not, may i ask why not? 

if you are feeding red meat, she won't need taurine. there is plenty of taurine in meat.

all she really needs is protein/ fat/ edible bone and a little bit of organs.

no need to complement things...

broccoli is a cruciferous vegetable. please use sparingly because it can affect thyroid function.

carrots have natural sugar in them and dogs do not need sugar. if anything, sugar harms dogs.

here is the diet i would feed.

chicken/turkey/pork/fish/rabbit/venison + any other protein you can think of including eggs with shell.
fat from said proteins
edible bone
organs such as: spleen, pancreas, brain, thymus, liver, kidney. an organ is something that secretes.

special proteins, such as lungs or tongue and other parts of animals are great, too...for variety.

and that's that.

no grains
no dairy
no veggies
no fruit
if you want to give fish oil with vitamin e and no soy, that's fine....canned fish are cooked, after all.

raw is pretty simple unless we complicate things, especially with a newly transitioned dog.


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## dustinshaw98

Robyn B. said:


> I feed my dog Jake and Daisey's Raw Food. Some people prefer to make their own food for their dogs, but Jake and Daisey's is great, and simple.. plus its isnt that pricey! They are also already pre-packaged in 1lbs vaccuum packed 'baggies.' You keep it frozen, and de-thaw the ones you are using the day of. They have a great variety of different meats they use; chicken, beef, pork, turkey, buffalo... and all of them have fruits and veggies mixed in for extra nutrients  Its also great to throw in some oils or flax seed or eggs once in a while.
> And you are supposed to feed your dog 2% of its own body weight if you are feeding raw.



I didn't know about that 2% bit. Thank you, Robyn!


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## Kathyy

If you are concerned with allergies keep it simple. No veggies. No grains. One protein at a time. Watch the eyes, ears, nose, front feet for itchies, goop, skin too pink in color and increased licking. Probably lots more but this is a start.

1/2 tsp of powdered egg shell has 900 mg of calcium and balances 1 pound of meat. More is not better!

What bones are you feeding her? Pork ribs would be a good one. Add lots of nice fat and it is easy to feed the right amount of bone, just add or subtract one depending on the poop.


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## lil_fuzzy

Kathyy said:


> If you are concerned with allergies keep it simple. No veggies. No grains. One protein at a time. Watch the eyes, ears, nose, *front feet for itchies*, goop, skin too pink in color and *increased licking*. Probably lots more but this is a start.
> 
> 1/2 tsp of powdered egg shell has 900 mg of calcium and balances 1 pound of meat. More is not better!
> 
> What bones are you feeding her? Pork ribs would be a good one. Add lots of nice fat and it is easy to feed the right amount of bone, just add or subtract one depending on the poop.


I started feeding raw just over a week ago, and have noticed that Pixie has been licking her front feet a bit. What does that mean? They've been eating mostly chicken, and some dehydrated liver for treats.


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## JulieK1967

lil_fuzzy said:


> I started feeding raw just over a week ago, and have noticed that Pixie has been licking her front feet a bit. What does that mean? They've been eating mostly chicken, and some dehydrated liver for treats.


Is she using them for leverage? If so, maybe she's just being tidy and cleaning herself up. Otherwise, I'm not sure.


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## MagicRe

make sure the chicken is not enhanced....with more than 85 mg per 4 oz serving of sodium.

my dogs lick their feet, too.....from two things....the grass outside that's filled with all of the goodness only dogs appreciate and from their food which gets on their feet from the towel they use. only one of my dogs uses his feet to hold things...

check to make sure they are not chewing their feet. that's an environmental allergy, usually, or they have yeasty paws...or they have an owie that needs to be attended to.


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## MagicRe

chubby said:


> Hi,
> 
> Butters' ideal weight is 10-12 pounds; right now she's 8 months old, and I believe bordering around 9 pounds, though her ribs aren't as easy to feel as before when she was really young,
> 
> She doesn't gulp her food down, even if it's in small pieces - she's a very slow eater, and really takes her time, first licking, then eating the skin, then chewing like crazy just to get one small piece off. Her chewing power is fairly weak, evidenced by her almost perfect condition chew toys despite constant gnawing, but she will finish her meal in maybe 40 minutes?


she's just starting out. that strength of jaw, teeth, neck muscle will come in time.

as time goes by, she will learn to eat faster; but, for now, savour that she is a very thoughtful eater....


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## lil_fuzzy

JulieK1967 said:


> Is she using them for leverage? If so, maybe she's just being tidy and cleaning herself up. Otherwise, I'm not sure.


Nah, this isn't happening at meal times, just on and off throughout the day, and I'm pretty sure she didn't used to do it.



MagicRe said:


> make sure the chicken is not enhanced....with more than 85 mg per 4 oz serving of sodium.
> 
> my dogs lick their feet, too.....from two things....the grass outside that's filled with all of the goodness only dogs appreciate and from their food which gets on their feet from the towel they use. only one of my dogs uses his feet to hold things...
> 
> check to make sure they are not chewing their feet. that's an environmental allergy, usually, or they have yeasty paws...or they have an owie that needs to be attended to.


Right, will check sodium then. She's not chewing or doing any damage, just licking.


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## MagicRe

honestly, i think we become more observant when we start to feed raw...in only because we're on the alert for those benefits everyone is talking about or the disasters everyone is talking about 

it's springtime...as long as she's not trying to chew off her feet, i would not worry..

you can take some bragg's apple cider vinegar and dilute it and wipe her feet with it, followed by some unrefined extra virgin coconut oil ( we use nutiva)


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## lil_fuzzy

MagicRe said:


> honestly, i think we become more observant when we start to feed raw...in only because we're on the alert for those benefits everyone is talking about or the disasters everyone is talking about
> 
> it's springtime...as long as she's not trying to chew off her feet, i would not worry..
> 
> you can take some bragg's apple cider vinegar and dilute it and wipe her feet with it, followed by some unrefined extra virgin coconut oil ( we use nutiva)


Hah, yeah, maybe I'm being paranoid


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## MagicRe

lil_fuzzy said:


> Hah, yeah, maybe I'm being paranoid


raw changes us, too, not just the dog.

suddenly, what we didn't notice before we notice to the nth degree.

i was like that when i first started and i attributed everything to raw....even when it didn't make sense.



so maybe it's not so bad being a little paranoid....but mostly, raw does good things....except during transition....i'm one who believes in the detox stage.....and i believe that full transition takes about six months to a year...for a dog.


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## Sasha1/2

I have found good prices on the following items for Sasha. Could someone please advise me on the portions and anything I should add to make complete meals? 

- pork tails
- assorted pork organs in a pack
- chicken feet
- small turkey necks

I assume that necks, tails and feet are all considered meaty bones?


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## Kathyy

Max needs 1.5 chicken feet a day so assume that 3 chicken feet is about 2 ounces of bone. Figure turkey necks and pig tails at 40-50% bone at best but of course feed according to the resulting poop, you never know.

Be careful, she is a big girl and any of those bits could be hazardous eating for gulping dogs. I would only buy a few the first time to be sure they will work for her and don't scare you when she eats them.


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## Sasha1/2

Thanks, Kathyy. I will hand feed her. I only bought one pack of each item from an Asian market.


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## Sasha1/2

I just divided up the package of pork organ meat. It included tongue (muscle meat?), ears (muscle meat?), liver, kidney, heart (muscle meat?) and something I'm not sure about... maybe lung? It was large, thin and bright magenta in color.


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## Sibe

Tongue, ears, and heart are meat. Liver and kidney are organ. Lung is arguably fed as meat, but as it tends to make most dogs have loose poop I feed it as if was organ so as not to give too much.


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## Kathyy

Nice package! Agree with Sibe that it isn't all organs but so what, good stuff in there. 

Lung is very light weight and might even float in water. I feed it like heart as it is also rich in minerals and can cause soft poop. It makes great training treats as after cooking it is still very soft and easy to pinch into small bits. It isn't thin in shape though, a slice maybe?


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## Sasha1/2

Thin maybe wasn't the best word, but it isn't roundish like the kidneys or heart. The package was a good price, just under $2/pound, which around here is a steal. The Asian market had goat, which is what I originally went for, but it was $8/lb!


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## MagicRe

sounds like you got yourself a nice score


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## Sasha1/2

Thanks for your help, everyone. I wasn't sure if I had scored or not. I just knew that the packages had good prices on them and included things that looked more like road kill than my supper. LOL If she does well on these I'll go back for more.


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## Sasha1/2

Sasha did a great job with chicken feet. The kidney, on the other hand, she practically inhaled, so I'll probably give that to her cubed and maybe even frozen next time. But at least I don't need to worry anymore that she'll chew the bones.


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## MagicRe

Sasha1/2 said:


> Sasha did a great job with chicken feet. The kidney, on the other hand, she practically inhaled, so I'll probably give that to her cubed and maybe even frozen next time. But at least I don't need to worry anymore that she'll chew the bones.


glad to hear she is coming along.....and now we can add another raw feeder to the world....one small step for man. one huge step for dog kind.


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## Me&MyMin

Hi I just bought some turkey giblets and lamb kidneys from the butcher. I also have chicken necks how would I divy this up to make one serving of a meal. I have a 3 month old min pin by the way. He's 5 lbs. I'm feeding him natures variety raw now. I was thinking NV in the morning and night, then a chicen neck and combination of the turkey giblets and lamb kidneys for lunch. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thx!


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## MagicRe

your dog weighs five pounds. if you are feeding a patty of NV and then you are feeding a chicken neck, you may well be feeding too much and too much bone.

if i'm not mistaken, nature's variety already has bone.

is this the same NV that has veggies and organs and oils in it, too? if so, it's already a compleat diet.


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## Me&MyMin

MagicRe said:


> your dog weighs five pounds. if you are feeding a patty of NV and then you are feeding a chicken neck, you may well be feeding too much and too much bone.
> 
> if i'm not mistaken, nature's variety already has bone.
> 
> is this the same NV that has veggies and organs and oils in it, too? if so, it's already a compleat diet.


Hey thx for replying on my other post. I want to use both so I can stretch out the NV. Not very cheap.

Thx!


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## MagicRe

you could get to the point where you don't have to feed NV at all.....your dog doesn't need most of what's in it...


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## Me&MyMin

So would say a 5 lb of ground beef/organ/bone mix a sufficient diet with the added tripe and chicken necks throughout the week. I would switch up the food from chicken to beef to rabbit and whatever else is on hare today.

Thx!


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## MagicRe

let's stop the duplicating answers LOL...i just answered you in the other thread....i'm sorry, but i cannot agree with giving this dog so many different raw proteins at once. you are begging for cannon butt.


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## FrenchBasset

Hello All,
Glad to find this thread, thought I could use some advises. 
We started with premium commercial raw food (frozen grind raw food) with Charly when he was around 2-3 months old. He is now almost 3. Being a Basset he is naturally a picky eater. He is however at the perfect weight of 18kg for his age and is of good health. I've been constantly struggling with his picky eating habit except in the cold winter when he has no choice as he needs to keep warm 

I've in the past tried switching him to unprocessed raw food, such as chicken drumsticks and chicken wings etc, but gave up at the first incident when he had trouble to poop (when he managed, it was soft). Partially also due to the pressures from his Vet who is against giving dogs raw bones (apart from this topic he is an excellent vet). 

Few weeks ago, I decided to give it another go, as I was getting really frustrated of throwing away expensive dog food. I started to feed chicken drumstick (minus the sharp tiny bone which I remove), chicken wings, and breast with a little bit of bones, all bought from supermarket for human consumption. Charly loves it, and so far no meals are wasted, if it is not finish today I'll just pick it up and it will be consumed tomorrow (unlike the commercial raw food which expires once thawed for 2 days)

My view is, while the commercial raw food is supposed to be good, (Charly's has no health issue), I don't know what's in it, apart from the label of Beef/Chicken/Duck with some rice, and the fact it is a premium brand which the breeders also use. But if the dog turns his nose on the food, I think it probably is not so tasty. For the record he always love the food again (for a few days) when he is back from animal 'hotel' where he is being fed kibble, whenever we go on holiday, so it can be just his bad habit of being picky. 

I've added some minced beef meat to the diet so far, also yesterday I gave him oxtail which he loves!! He is a good chewer and he chewed off the meat until he got on to the small bone and he chewed on that for a good while, until he was having so much joy he started to roll on the grass and I got too worried that he was going to chock on the bone, I removed it. The bone was small but I could see he chew through part of it, which probably means it is safe for consumption had he swallowed it; I was just worried about choking and also blockage, at tiny chance as it might. 

I do feel a little guilty reading up comments about 'feeding raw should take intensive researching'; We were feeding raw anyway but the lazier way, where the food is packaged nicely and we just need to thaw it out the day before. I read a lot of dog feeding and have some ideas about how it should be, what not to, etc, but it definitely wasn't an intensive research. 

I do not want to mess up Charly's health. So the question here is, am I doing it right so far?
I started with chicken wing/thigh/quarter/breast with bones, the fatty skin removed and the sharp needle bone on the drumstick removed. After 2 weeks i added chicken heart and gizzard, he didn't like it so I baked it and fed it over a week, and will do it again in a couple of weeks. The amount is about perhaps 6-8 chicken hearts and 6-8 gizzards fed as treats for a week. 
I now added oxtail, minced beef and also started to freeze up pork ribs (I read freezing the pork for at least 21 days should kill the bacteria) for near future use. I've occasionally also feed beef cut (lean meat).
I plan to add chicken liver (also bake as the dog doesn't like it raw) and will try to find some beef heart. 

Is this enough variety for a month or 2? My partner is not fond of this type of raw feeding (he prefers the "safe", nutrient well calculated commercial raw food), but he has seen the changes in Charly when it comes to feeding time. My plan is to utilize this short period of time to convince my partner that it is OK, if not better, to self manage raw feeding. Charly's teeth are getting a little bit yellowish which I hope the new diet will help to remove the tartar as well. Budget wise I don't find it too expensive considering I kept throwing the food away and had to open a new package as the old one gets stale.

Charly does gets some healthy table scraps from us (the food we eat, not the food we throw away); For instance, every morning he gets some small bites from our wholegrain breads with a little bit of peanut butter (Omega 3?), lunch time he get some cheese (he loves it) and also bits of ham or chicken fillet, and bits of hard boiled egg. 

I probably shouldn't be worried about the complete nutrient, I am not a fan of supplements, but I am curious about your comments, and your suggestions on how I can improve.

Thanks in advance!

P/S: I also added some tripe to his diet occasionally. it is commercial tripe for dog called Rodi. It is very smelly so I feed it only once in a month or so.


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## MagicRe

i think you're doing fine. when we talk about research, we mean reading on what is species appropriate for feeding your dog and how to transition your dog from kibble to raw.

the intensive research to me is worth it, because i research everything that goes into my mouth. i would do no less for my dog.

i've seen others who buy some chicken, feed it. if all is well, they continue introducing proteins until they get to around four different proteins and then they feel good, the dog looks good and feels good....

try not to give him baked chicken gizzards and hearts. it defeats the purpose. if he is a picky eater, it's because you're allowing it.

if my dogs, especially in the beginning, did not eat something i put down for them, they had twenty minutes. if they still didn't eat it, it was fed to them at the next meal. it is not cruel. as long as they drank water, they didn't starve...but they learned to eat what i fed them...that is my job to give them the best i can. their job is to eat what i serve. 

usually the people i meet up with on forums are those like you, like me two years ago who just wanted to check to see if they were doing this right and how else to tweak the dog's diet or how to stop runny stools or too chalky a stool or to better benefit their dogs.

i think going as slowly as possible is the way to go. that is how i did it with my dogs and they can now eat a variety of animal parts without issue.

as long as his stools remain stable, not too chalky and not liquid....a little soft is okay. perfect stools are not key. formed stools are.

oxtail does have little bones. true. i personally don't feed them. i like chicken feet and quail and pork ribs and duck necks, as an example of bonier parts of meals.

where do you live and how much does your dog weigh? ideal weight of dog determines, usually, how much you'll feed. also the dog's metabolism and activity level.

your partner will change his tune when charly, in six months, is the most gorgeous dog he's ever seen.

yes, that diet is good for the next month or so.

as long as charly is adapting to what you're feeding him, all is well. just go slowly...

in a few months you'll want to start feeding liver, about 5% of his overall diet and then you'll start to feed 5% of another organ. this is where charly gets his vitamins...

beef heart is not an organ. it is a rich muscle meat. please wait a little while on that. and serve it with a bony meal. 

give charly a chance to adapt to raw and strengthen his teeth and jaws and muscles.

you don't have to remove that little bone, but i suggest feeding quarters, rather than drumsticks....he's a basset hound. he can handle bigger food. many people buy whole chickens and cut them right down the middle and then cut them again, to make four whole pieces....it might be cheaper that way.

pork ribs, if you are in the usa, do not have to be frozen. the last case of trich was in 2002, i believe. i had a chart somewhere, but i don't remember where i put it from the CDC. 

wild boar or hog, on the other hand, is not safe to feed without freezing. see.

if you can get beef ribs down the line, not now....give him a slab of two or three ribs that are connected and let him enjoy them. also, do not feed any grocery store cuts of pork necks as the saw they use creates sharp corners.

that's good for a start...once you're in for a few months, you'll have given him chicken, pork, beef, and even turkey or fish....

he should no longer get table scraps, especially bread. no dog needs grains. bread has sugar and not good for his teeth. once my dogs were raw fed, they no longer get table scraps.

charly will go through a detox maybe....mine did..and they looked terrible, smelled like chicken.... and it seemed that nothing was working.

it will. be patient.

in a few months, you can give fish oil (from sardines, mackerel, herring, with vitamin E - no soy - no mixed tocopherols). good for giving dietary fat and omega threes.

tripe is good. i prefer tripe from either hare-today.com or greentripe.com or if you know farmers who will give it to you, all the better.

the closer to nature you feed, the better it is for the dog.

hope this helped.


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## Kathyy

I like that you are going slowly on this. Try baking the hearts, livers and gizzards less each time and as he accepts them cut down on the cooking even more. I prefer boiling meats I need to cook, the broth is tasty stuff too. There is a carton with broth ice cubes in the freezer, tasty treats for warm days.

I would be measuring how much food goes into him though. Weigh out 2-3 days worth and that is it. It is easy to overdo treats especially and loose stool is very discouraging. He seems very light for a Bassett, good job, 2-2.5% of his ideal body weight is the usual starting point. To keep him eager feeding less may work better than feeding more. As in, if he is a bit hungry he may sample those icky hearts, gizzards and livers while if he is full he will just leave them as you work to cook them less and less.

When moving on stick to one protein at a time. I was extremely methodical about this. Fed bony chicken until poop was good and then just fed somewhat less chicken meat but the same amount of bone and a bite then 2>3>4 bites of the new protein until Max was eating about half new boneless protein and half very bony chicken. Once he was on the meats I was sourcing regularly I started on the organs and only started with about 10% his ultimate serving size the first day. Max adores all organs, I didn't have any issues with refusal.

I am going to feed only chicken bone until the dog is well accustomed to raw. Early on in his raw fed career Max pooped out a whole completely undigested chicken neck he neglected to put any tooth marks in. Last year that oxtail bone he swallowed was completely digested. Takes a while for the gut to get up to speed I guess. Learning to break up and digest whole bone is different from digesting ground. Any dogs I get will start eating pork, turkey, rabbit and the rest of the edible bones after they have been introduced to all the meats and organs and probably have started eating larger/smaller meals and their guts function well on closer to the suggested 10% bone rather than the 30% we suggest starting the dogs on.

Max gets peanut butter after he gets his supplements. His lower than 2% raw diet is a bit low in omega 3 [fish oil], vitamin E [nearly all of us are], zinc/magnesium/manganese [that >2%]. It turns out it is a pretty good source of vitamin E, manganese and especially magnesium. Search through a site such as this one http://nutritiondata.self.com/tools/nutrient-search to find whole foods that will work for you. For instance, oysters work as a super source of zinc if you care to feed a couple a week. It just confuses the issue feeding such stuff starting out, he will be fine for months with a diet a bit lower than optimum.


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## Me&MyMin

Hey I have a 3 month old puppy and I have been feeding him natures variety raw. I am soon going to get him on a full raw diet but I'm new so I really don't want to do it myself from a butcher per say. Check out haretoday.com they have a lot of pre ground meat organs bone mixes. They have whole carcasses too if that's your deal.


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## FrenchBasset

@ MagicRe & Kathyy, thanks for your prompt reply.

I agree about the picky eater is made not born; I've tried the 'take it or wait till next meal' approach but Charly gets into his refusal mode which ended up throwing up in the middle of the night, and the next day he would even refuse treats, and the next cycle he eats normal again. It is a very annoying, especially he sleeps with us which means I have to jump up in the middle of the night to prevent him throwing up in bed. He usually will not refuse to eat, but simply will not finish his food, despite it is less than 2% of his body weight, which makes me think that the food itself is not appealing (like the other thread about minced meat, how do you know what's in it?)

My biggest concern is nutrition deficiency(besides the bone choking/blockage concern). Is it too long to wait few months to start feeding organs? Prior to this we used Carnibest, it is a Dutch company selling pre-package raw food. It comes with Turkey/Rice, Lamb/Rice, Duck/Rice and "Natural(beef)/Rice". Duck was Charly's preferred choice but over time he will act up and turn his nose from the food. Most of the time I fed "Natural" as it is cheaper consider I often have to throw away the "leftover"after 2 days. Having said that, he is used to raw food, just in a ground form. 
I was hoping by cooking/baking the organs, at least he gets some of the nutrient. Ideally he will take it raw, so perhaps I shall try the suggestion of cooking it less and less. 

We live in the Netherlands. Charly is a French Basset which optimal weight should be around 20kg, the breed is slightly smaller than the English Basset which weight around 30kg. I am trying to keep him at around 18kg allowing him some buffers to grow into when he become a senior  For now he is looking great, lean but ribs are not visible.
The breed is rather laid back and he does nothing during the day, being very active from 5pm - 8pm then settle down very soon after 8pm. He gets 3 walks a day, normally 2 short and 1 long walk (3km, at very slow pace as he is mostly interested in sniffing). In the weekend we go for 5km walk when it is not raining, plus 2 short walks, so he gets his fair share of exercise. 

Over here the butchers mostly sell the 'pre-cut' product, they really give me some funny look when I ask for chicken feet or chicken neck.. lol.. Most things are fillet with very little bones. But I will look for bigger butcher shops which still do the slaughter themselves. I used mainly chicken. I buy in bulk, like one package (5-6) of chicken quarters, and another package of wings, and then I do the packaging at home, by adding enough meat/bone per meals. 
I would prefer to add some red meat since he really enjoy it. Later down the line I'll add in pork, and beef ribs as suggested. I've tried tuna in the past but he is not fond of fish. 

When I switched to this diet (the actual raw, not ground raw), Charly pooped fine the first round, then he went a couple of days without pooping which scared the heck out of me, then he pooped fine again. For now he is doing fine, his stool is not too firm nor too loose, and on quite regular basis. I think this is probably due to the diet change is not too big compared to switching from kibbles. 

About the bread, I thought it is good as it contains 5 types of seeds (perhaps good for human) and I read from other threads that seeds are good? I do agree about sugar not good to dogs, especially Charly being the laid back breed.

For the eating habit, he does crunch the chicken bones before swallowing it, which is a relief. But I've noticed he is now prefer the bones section compared to the meat section, I guess I shouldn't chop up the food (in fist sized chunks) and should let him work out itself thus eliminate the choosy part. 

Thanks again for all your input, and the useful site for nutrition info. It is so nice to learn from this forum.


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## wolfsnaps

You have a healthy weight dog with a low metabolism. If he doesn't eat for a couple of days (refuses his meals) its generally ok. He is waiting you out. He wants you to give him that tastey sugary bread, the pungent cheese, and the baked gizzards. This dog is training you well. 

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but his diet should fall along the lines of 80% meats (muscle including heart) 10% bone and 10% organ (liver, kidney, spleen, brain, testicles, etc.) 

If you are feeding too much bone, his poop will turn white and chalky. Not enough and you can have loose stool/diarrhea. I think (depending on meat prices where you live) buying animal parts is cheaper than premade mixes. And like you said, who knows what quality meats they use in those minces. 

Call around your area. Talk to butchers, find slaughterhouses. Ask how much they want for tripe, lung, trachea, heart, tongue, kidney, etc. The cheaper stuff that people do not eat as much of. 

Do not let him train you into feeding him treats all the time as this breed is prone to becoming overweight. I would be careful with oxtail. Unless you can get a whole oxtail and not the cut up kind, it is easy for Charly to swallow a big piece of bone and since you just started, his stomach acids might have a problem with it.


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## MagicRe

bread has sugar in it....that's why i don't recommend bread.

there is a seed mix that can be used. many europeans use it and also add in veggies and grains. that is called a BARF style of feeding and if that's what you want to do, please research veggies that won't affect your dog's thyroid, like cruciferous veggies.

your dog, like humans, has a certain amount of storage in his liver for fat soluble vitamins. he can go at least three months without organs and no ill effects.

organs are usually started very slowly, after the last protein.

i wish i could stress to you how important it is for your dog to slowly be transitioned. it's all about the digestive tract getting used to a new way of feeding. they have to build up gut flora to accomodate this food.

organs can be given in sliver sizes, like the size of your finger nail...to get him started....and then as the weeks and months go by, increase slowly.

i don't feed grains of any kind, for i do not feel my dogs are herbivores. they may well be opportunistic in that they will eat whatever you feed them. that doesn't mean they need it.

my dogs do not get vegetables or fruit, which has sugar in it....they do get fish oil and spirulina (bioprep II). 

it takes about a year for a dog to fully transition. my dogs have been fed raw for two years and they are finally at the point where i can say they are done and i have their formula down and it works for them.

much of this is trial and error and keeping things in balance. and it's balance over time. not balance every meal. we don't eat that way. our dogs don't have to, either.

from chicken, you can go to turkey, then pork, then fish, then beef, then organs and then the exotics, like eggs and different body parts and goats and lamb and other animals.....

just take your time and feed him nice big pieces, as long as he's not a gulper.....and let him work...

he will stop the bile pukes . promise. just don't give in. it's in both of your best interests that he knows to eat what is put in front of him.

as you continue, you'll end up feeding more red meats and gamier meats.....which is what they need the most.....


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## FrenchBasset

Hi Wolfsnap & MagicRe,
Thanks for your comments. Yes, indeed the dog owns us completely. He is spoilt rotten but the challenge is also the fact that he is not food driven. For instance, he doesn't normally take treats from strangers (we never teach him that); Or in some pet shops where there is always a bowl on the floor filled with dog cookies, most dog owners allow their dogs to 'take one', which they usually take a mouthful, but Charly is never interested. The scents in the pet shop alone is enough to keep him busy so he bypass the cookies bowl. He will take treats in a 'calmer' enviornment but not when the situation is overwhelming.
Back to the topic, I certainly seeing changes in his digestive system after adding beef (oxtail), he sure adores it, and he is being very politewith the bone (i taught him), I sit next to him and I ask him to 'show me' several times, where he will drop the bone and let me inspect how much meat left, when it is almost done, I'll say "thank you, tomorrow again" and remove it; 
But 2 out of the past 3 nights (not last night), he woke up in the middle of the night throwing up some biles, not much though, just a bit strange given that dinner was served around 7-8pm, which means his stomach couldn't have been empty. I think his body is working harder processing this 'pure' food; he poops OK and being his normal self, laid back during the day and energetic in the evening etc. 
With this new observation I will definitely slow down the variety process, keeping chicken & beef + tripe only, as these are what he was used to(in the ground form). I already seeing him favor the beef over chicken now, but I am not going to let him manipulate me. Now that I am serving "true raw", the guilt factor (of not sure if the food is good enough) is erased, so I'll just put down the plate, and after he had his beef and he is still hungry, he will have to accept the chicken. 
Side topic, what do you do with the leftover? For instance, when you serve a meal (chicken, beef, RMB, organs etc), the dog eats half of it(the goodies), and the other half left untouched, do you pick it up and serve the same thing again the next day? If you top up, I can imagine the dog will go for the 'fresh one' over the leftover, so eventually the leftover become stale, don't they? How many days will you keep reusing the leftover until it is become bad, and you start using/defrosting the new meal? I was raised with the concept 'no food should be wasted', so it really annoys me when I have to throw food away, especially so many dogs are starving to death else where in the world. 
I'll hold back the organs for few more weeks, it is a relief to know that he will be fine without it for a while; however, I am interested about the fish oil. Which type and how do you add it in the diet? Do you simply mix it with the raw meat? About the spirulina, pardon my ignorance, but may I ask, as good as it appears, if we are mimicking the nature feeding, what are the chances the dogs get access to these in the nature? I know it is 'good stuff', but I am just curious to see how it fits in dog's diet as these are salt water plant. Again, I dont mean to be offensive, just curious. 
Thanks again for all the comments; It is just a start for me, but it feels so great to see Charly is now anticipating the food, and enjoy it. I'll still have to work on my self discipline, if I've the awareness not to feed chocolate to dogs because it will kill them, i should apply the same for sugary food. Weekend is particularly hard when we go to Charly's grandma, where he gets access to all the "bad treats"; he had a pig nose, white processed type which always give him loose tool, but luckily it didn't happen yesterday (suspect his stomach acid is stronger now?) and way tooooooo many cookies. We kept saying no, but the grandma kept giving secretly, up to a point I've to take a 'nice roasted' chew from him; We often say, 'you don't have to clean up the mess later when he throw up', but sometimes we just give in knowing that she does it more for herself (the feel good factor giving treats to pet) than for the dog. It is hard to lecture a 84yo woman :-(


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## MagicRe

i just love hearing how polite your dog is.....

the pukes he's having might be bile pukes...which either means his body is adapting to the new diet or he's hungry. 

it should pass. if not, then experiment with the amounts you're feeding him. 

how often are you feeding him? is 7-8 p.m. the last feeding or the only feeding? 

i don't have leftovers....my dogs' food are weighed because i just do not have an eye to approximate. my pug would be too fat if i did not weigh his food. the same is true for my corgi mix.

he is not a self regulator. some dogs are.

what i do is take out three or four different proteins. they are put into glass bowls and partially covered so they stay fresh longer. i would say i take out about four to five days.

if, let's say, malia, decides to NOT eat her fish....or her duck neck, it goes back to the refrigerator and she gets it again with her next meal. nothing else until she finishes. i will not have a picky eater when i've agreed to feed her the best of the best. the least she can do is eat it.  

i also do not believe in waste and i can not allow either of my dogs to choose what they will and will not eat. a meal should be enough for him to eat in its entirety. there should not be any left over. that would mean you are feeding him more than he needs or you have the rarest of breeds, one who self regulates and stops when he is no longer hungry.

still, i would serve it again until you learn how much to feed at one sitting. and i would not top it until he eats what you serve him from before.

since we are feeding a frenkenprey or prey model of raw, i want to get as many different animals and their parts into my dogs, so i can create the compleat nutrition for them. 

having said that, if, let's say, one of my dogs refused rabbit. i would let them because rabbit is an expensive treat for them, unless i were to raise them myself which will not happen in my lifetime.

if the food smells off to you by a little bit, it's okay to feed. they have different gut flora than we do. certainly, their gut flora is stronger than ours; however, there is that transition time for their gut flora to get stronger. since you are not feeding multiple proteins , you could package a meal for him and feed that way. many people do that.

i have a carving knife, a mallet and a cleaver and cutting board on my kitchen counter, along with a scale and i love to cut big chunks of meat or whatever protein i'm feeding. 

whatever works for you. 

as for charley's grandma, i would never ever suggest trying to train her. LOL......when he throws up on her floor or carpet, she'll get it. 

or not. but she gets pleasure and if you can maybe compromise and keep it to a minimum, then all's well that end's well.


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## Gally

FrenchBasset

It sounds like he is having the hunger pukes in the middle of the night. Raw only takes a few hours to digest so it's very possible he is waking up in the middle of the night with an empty stomach. He'll get used to it with time and the puking will stop.

As for the leftovers if he is only eating half of what you put down it sounds like you are feeding too much. Get a scale and weigh each meal, he should be getting 2-3% of his ideal body weight each day. If he does leave some behind you can put it back in the fridge for a few days.


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## FrenchBasset

Thanks MagicRe & Gally!
It is definitely bile puke as I've seen other type before (gross). But I am not sure if I am over feeding. He is 18kg so even at the lower end of 2% it is still 360grams. I weigh his meal and normally it is arnd 300-320grms daily. 
Could be low metabolism as suggested earlier, because Charly normally refuse his morning meal during summer, it is his way of telling me he doesn't need it. That's why I love winter because his appetite improved greatly! 
So far I am still feeding 2 meals daily. Morning is a small portion (<100grams) and the rest is given in the evening. During the day he gets bits and pieces of treats. A couple of cookies for 'brushing time', 1 cookies per ear cleaning, one for wiping the face, 1 for filing nail etc. it is all small size cookies so it is not much, plus I don't do all the grooming in one day. The biggest portion is probably when we've lunch, he gets some of the deli meat, again, just small tiny chunk of chicken filet or beef/ham. 
Basset owners often said the dogs are great beggers and very food driven. But Charly is more self regulator which makes it an exception to the breed 
I do believe that's he is being picky because he just started to have leftover since I added beef, I think he prefer the new taste! I won't be surprised if overtime when I add the new protein he will fancy it over beef. But I'll control the portion (of beef n chicken ) so he can't be choosy. 
Btw I checked his teeth today it seems already whither than 3-4 weeks ago, what a delight!! 
Thanks again for all the support and feedback!


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## Gally

I'd cut out the deli meat, most deli meat like ham has too much salt for a dog. If it's just plain cooked chicken or beef with no seasoning or salt added that might be okay. 

If you're already feeding at the low end and he is still leaving some then you are probably right. If he's not very active at this time of year then he may just be self regulating. Once he's transitioned to the new protein you can just feed a full beef meal or a full chicken meal so he can't be so choosy. 

That's great news about his teeth


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## MagicRe

deli meat? if this is deli meat as we consume in the states, then please do not feed deli meat. 

ham also, if it is cured. it is fine if it is not cured.

if he is conscientious about eating, there will come a time when you'll no longer have to brush his teeth.

you also can dehydrate protein, such as chicken and use them for treats.

take some chicken and cut into small portions, place on baking tray and put into an oven that, well, in american, is 250-275 degrees F, until they are all dried and shriveled.

or get a dehydrator and use that. 

love hearing about the teeth.


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## FrenchBasset

Hi again,
Yes, agree abt the deli meat , will avoid that. Thanks for the tips about treat! I need to try it out sometimes.
Today I took the courage to convince my partner going to butcher with me, I don't speak Dutch well enough to ask about the 'non conventional products'.. They did have beef heart, which is great (and cheap!!), but they don't hv anything else. Good news is they can order 'parts' for us. So I am really excited to find out what are our options (per costs).
So far, Charly's meals consists of either:
Chicken back/drumstick/wing - first weeks
Chicken as above + tripe
Chicken as above + gizzards + chicken hearts (organs will be with holds for a couple of months as per suggested)
Chicken as above + beef minced
Chicken as above + oxtail (without bones)
Chicken as above + beef lean cut + beef heart
(chicken portion is reduced when others are added) 

And chunck of hard boiled eggs every other day. 

Later this week I'll order beef tongue and more beef heart, and perhaps chicken neck + chicken back. 
Question1: is chicken neck safe (choking hazards?) for 18kg dog? Or if he crunch it like he does with chicken wing will it be fine? 
Question2: is chicken neck too fatty? Read somewhere about it causing pancreatitis when feed daily?
Question3: I read on another thread about dog's daily menu, many feed chicken back, does this mean carcass or just the back part of chicken quarter? (as oppose to chicken breast?) 
Question4: Charly seems to love beef heart (he go for it first over the much more expensive beef filet cut!!), can muscle meat be fed frequently? If yes, is it the same for beef tongue and beef minced? 
Question5: can Charly eat beef ribs? Are the bones edible? 
Question6: someone also mentioned hamburger pattie is good option, is it? (not sure how much difference than minced meet)

I go for the 'regular' minced meat instead of the lean option (price varies abt 1.5€ per 500 grams)
I am trying to manage the cost, as mentioned in the forum it takes a lot of shopping around and I go for the weekly bargain. It seems that chicken is still the cheapest, minced beef as well. I know it is still early stage (into 2 months now) so I am only focus on these 2 proteins although I already started freezing pork ribs and pork meat cut w/ little bones. It is purely for my own reassurance, not that the meat has any problem. Pork is cheaper than beef but I'll add it only in a few weeks to come. 

Thanks again for all the advices and tips!!


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## MagicRe

hi again,

when i was in amsterdam and i needed something, i would point. the universal language. use your own body to point when you are at the butcher and they will understand. 

the tripe that you are feeding. ...is it white or green? if it is white, it is bleached and for human consumption......i don't know about europe, but in the states, green tripe, which is really a stinky brownish grey, cannot be sold in human stores. farmers, though might part with tripe.

chicken is, by far, the cheapest....

1. if he eats wings thoughtfully, he can eat necks. and no they are more bone than anything. he weighs about the same as my corgi and she too is a thoughtful eater. 

he can probably have more boneless meals. i am not one who has to have the hard stools that some look for. as long as they are formed and solid, i am good with that.

since he has eaten beef and beef heart, and has not had a problem, he is eating that which many have taken months to transition, so i'd say he is ahead of schedule and has what we call an iron gut. 

it is not fat that causes pancreatitis, although, once a dog gets it, then fat has to be decreased.

the treats that are grains and sugary cause problems with the pancreas. 

carcass is part of the back. or frame, i have heard it called.

you are at the point where you want your carcass to have flesh on it.

beef heart is very nutritious. has many blood vessels and nutrients. if it is the only beef you can afford, then i would feed that rather than mince.

lean options are not necessary. humans use carbs first. dogs use fat. they need fat. 

at his weight, most likely, he will eat the meat from the beef ribs as my dogs do and then gnaw on the ends. usually beef ribs are good for teeth cleaning and complicated eating, like whole lamb or pork necks....

tongue is great as a muscle meat, yes. 

beef filet cut is for you and partner...not for dog. your dog will appreciate the fattier cheaper cuts of beef.

a hamburger pattie is the same as minced beef, except it is formed into a pattie. 

you do not want pork meat cut with little bones. it would seem your butcher does the same with pork necks that our butchers do and the edges are sharp from the band saw.

if you can get your butcher to get you whole pork necks, your dog will be in heaven.

lamb and goat are also good options when you get to them, as are rabbits and guinea hens and horse if they sell it in the nederlands, if it's legal.

stay away from anything with a sodium count of higher than 80-100 mg per 4 ounce serving. sorry, but you'll have to translate to european measuring 

i think you're doing great.

if you can get pork ribs, and give him a few that are still connected, he will love you for that, too.


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## FrenchBasset

Thanks for the prompt reply! 
It would be funny to use body language for neck or tongue or tail or about the organs. I was really grateful that my partner came along it is another step that he is involved in this 
Tripe is green and intended for dogs. Funny here they put it next to frozen vege for human like peas or spinach  it is smelly only when it is thaw, I don't find that too stinky to deal with, also put it in a sealed container helps. 
I think Charly is coping well mostly due to his previous diet already raw based, just grind/ground form + grain. I only started with beef heart today so I still hv to observe if it cause loose stool. He did hv chicken bone with the meal so hopefully no prob. He has hv beef occasionally (normally during birthdays or any celebrations) so that's no problem. Guilty abt the filet cut although it was 50% off I hide it from my partner, don't want him to get jeolous 
On the other hand, lamb, rabbit, turkey etc are too expensive here, maybe I haven't find the right source yet. So glad to learn that heart n tongue are good options, these are cheaper too. I'll make a note to check the bone on the pork cut, if it is sharp I'll remove it but I don't think it is. I got the bargain package (kilo) which is actually for human consumption, but I'll check just to be sure. Will find out how big is the chicken frame, might need to hv it cut to few pieces to feed in the freezer, will this cause sharp edge? 
Also, the pork ribs are cut up type(abt half a iPhone size, cut vertically), is this type of bone crunch able like chicken bone? If not then I suppose i won't give as he might swallow it whole. 
Thanks again!! Charly is now sleeping soundly at my feet and I am sure he appreciate all the new positive changes in his diet  paw to you all!!


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## MagicRe

since he is in the beginning stages of transition, you can feed the beef heart with a bonier meal and he should be okay. 

just start small with beef heart. it is very rich, more so than other muscle meats, since the blood flow to the heart is so intense 

as you continue down the raw path, you will start to look for those sources....suppliers, farmers, farmer's markets, slaughterhouses, processors, etc.

heart, tongue, lung (although rich, still a muscle meat, not an organ) -- all good.

the more red meat, the better....

the ribs you are looking at sound like baby back ribs, as we call them. they are a little harder than chicken but he should not have a problem. give him a few that are connected to each other....othewise, what you want to do is google st. louis ribs. those are the ones you want. 

but if you feed what you have, then keep two to three ribs connected and if he is a thoughtful eater, he will be fine.

no on the chicken frames. chicken bone is very porous and the softest bone, which is why i start my dogs on chicken frames or carcasses.....no cutting necessary. weighing is a good idea so he doesn't get fat .

they are bigger than an iphone:










duck necks are good, also for edible bone. my pug swallowed one whole and he's been raw fed for two years now....he's fine. i don't like it much, but he is not a thoughtful eater, and my corgi is.....


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## FrenchBasset

hi again,
Thanks for the advises. 

some status update:
Turned out Charly wasn't at all iron gut ;-) First night of beef heart, he woke us up about 5 hours after meal, and as soon as I let him out in the yard he ran for favorite spot and pooped, loose.. but luckily not diarrhea.
Then he had 2 more days of beef heart combined with chicken, but no problem pooping. For the past week he was on minced beef, chicken, beef, and beef heart.
Today I fed him pork ribs (which was kept in the fridge for over 2 weeks now).. Boy how he loves that!! Thanks for the pix btw, the ones I got are like the pix except already cut into individual ribs.. Charly took a few mins before he crunched and chewed and swallowed the whole rib, when it became smaller. The bones seems pretty 'soft' to me, also based on the sound of the crunching, it sounds/seems to me that it is quite similar to chicken bone in terms of density. I hope he will cope ok. Only 2 single ribs today, plus half a chicken back. 

If he is doing fine with pork (I did already give him a small chunk of pork meat last week, as introduction), I'll give him the rest of the ribs this week with combination of beef heart. 

Question: In terms of bone/meat ratio, how accurate do you get it? I supposed one way is based on whether his stool is soft or firm, but is there any other way? As usual I am just overly concerned if I am doing it right.

Tomorrow we will go pick up a 1.5kg beef tongue.. I hope I wont faint at the scene.. Read some thread that dogs prefer it if its rough surface is 'scrap off'.. (what am i doing with raw feeding.. lol)
Also we'll be picking up some calf ribs, recommended by the butcher when he heard it is for dogs.. I supposed calf ribs are softer then? If Charly can crunch it, he can swallow it, correct?

Meals for the coming 2 weeks:
- beef heart + pork ribs
- beef heart + calf ribs
- pork meat + calf ribs

Also next time I'll buy the pork ribs 'pack' instead of the cut off individual ribs.. I think it might be better for teeth cleaning.

Any comment? 

Thanks!!


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## MagicRe

i think you're doing great. 

all you have left to start him on is liver which is about five per cent of his diet and another organ which comprises the other 5%

so what you'll end up with is balance over time.....

start liver out by giving a small finger nail size piece. feed with a bony meal.

i like the rib packs because then the dog has to work harder. 

the teeth cleaning comes from not feeding sugar...more so than eating bone, although it certainly does not hurt.

however many parts you can get from red meat, get them....even if you can only supply cow, chicken, pork....and maybe some sardines or mackerel or herring.

you will, in a few months, start him on fish oil capsules with vitamin e for absorption.....we give carlson's, but nordic naturals is also fine. just make sure there is NO SOY in the fish oil.....

it gives him omega 3 and will help balance out the amount of omega 6 and 9 that he'll eat.

but not yet. you could use a few more months before giving any supplements.

i think you and he are doing fine.

beef heart, yes, is very very rich....for being a muscle meat. but if you could only feed one part of an animal, it would be the heart, nutritionally.


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## Sasha1/2

Sasha got elk for the first time last week. That was not pretty. She vomited and had the runs for days after just one teeny portion, about 4 oz. I'll be giving the rest of that roast away. I just got the gift of some goose. I'm not going to give her any of that for quite a while, though, after the elk experience. We'll stick to the tried and true "pig parts" for a few weeks, I think.


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## FrenchBasset

Thanks for the reassurance, it feels great to discuss in this forum with experienced dog owners. 
Yes, that's exactly my plan, to stick to only 3 proteins (beef, pork and chicken) for the next months. Mostly because it is cheaper, and also easy to obtain. Believe it or not, Charly already showing less interest in chicken... but it could be just the new favors that captured his heart/gut more ;-) I still have some bags of frozen chicken but I'll keep them in the freezer for now. I think after a while when I feed chicken again it might be again interesting to him. Or maybe when i pick up the chicken neck tomorrow he will be savouring it too.. 

Question for the liver, is one type better than another? For example, chicken liver vs pork liver or beef liver? which is your preference?
If it is a finger nail size, it should be easy enough to add in. 

Btw, what are the options for organs? I know i can get gizzard pretty easy, anything else? Is tripe organ or muscle meat?

Yes, I'll hold the supplements for now. For now I am trying to figure out what he likes most and what are the easiest combinations. Last week of May I'll be traveling for work and I am worried if he will eat if it is my partner who feed him. Which probably can bring up an interesting question (perhaps in another thread), if one's dog always eat only from one feeder? ;-) Mine sure does.. Last month I was gone for 14 hours (due to commuting to another city for work) he waited for my return, didnt touch the food bowl at all. Sweet, but worrying if I have to be away for a while..


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## FrenchBasset

Sorry to hear about Sasha. Hope she is feeling better already.


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## MagicRe

Sasha1/2 said:


> Sasha got elk for the first time last week. That was not pretty. She vomited and had the runs for days after just one teeny portion, about 4 oz. I'll be giving the rest of that roast away. I just got the gift of some goose. I'm not going to give her any of that for quite a while, though, after the elk experience. We'll stick to the tried and true "pig parts" for a few weeks, I think.


aw, don't give up on elk.....four ounces is not a teeny portion. elk is a game meat.

when intro'd give about an ounce or less.....let her tummy calm down...and then try it again. your dog has not been on raw long enough to intro elk yet in any quantity.


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## MagicRe

first, gizzards are not organs.

liver, spleen, kidney, thymus, pancreas, brain, adrenals, anything that secretes is considered an organ.

tripe is a muscle meat.
lung is considered to be a muscle meat.

i prefer organs from animals other than chicken. i think chicken is the least nutritious, so for my kids, i look for beef, goat, rabbit, game animals mostly.....

it's only a personal preference, but i don't feed a lot of pork, for no particular reason than my own. but pork organs are fine and easily obtained and highly nutritious....

but i think beef, lamb, sheep, goat, pork, are great for organs. i only suggest starting with chicken livers because they are more gentle. and only bits at a time. you are about a month or two away from organs. he has enough in storage....and he can wait. 

transition is a slow process or should be.

have your partner start to feed.....dogs are hungry. dogs eat. partner serves food, steps back. dog eats.  but both of you should be feeding him.

if the dog left the food whilst you were away, then have your partner pick up the food after 20-30 minutes. then serve it again the next meal. fourteen hours ? no.

forget about what he likes. it's your pocketbook. he needs to eat what you give him. period. if chicken is going to be a staple, well, so sad, too bad. get over it, my darling dog.  feed him the chicken. if he doesn't eat it in twenty or thirty minutes, pick it up and serve it for his next meal. as long as he is hydrated, he will not starve. promise. creating a picky dog will bring heartache and frustration to you, the dog, and your wallet.


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## Sasha1/2

MagicRe said:


> elk is a game meat


Sasha gets 24 oz of meat per day and was on wild deer exclusively for a couple of months, so I thought that half a meal of elk would be ok. Apparently not.


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## MagicRe

Sasha1/2 said:


> Sasha gets 24 oz of meat per day and was on wild deer exclusively for a couple of months, so I thought that half a meal of elk would be ok. Apparently not.


i know. it doesn't seem as if it should be that way...so you fed 12 ounces to her? that's quite a bit for a first time.....

but game meats are richer than farm raised meats....usually. and the more you get into the proteins that are grass fed/grass finished....the slower you go. 

it's a learning curve, to be sure.


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## Sasha1/2

MagicRe said:


> so you fed 12 ounces to her? that's quite a bit for a first time...


No, she gets 8 oz three times per day, so at one meal I gave her 4oz of elk which was way too much. Shortly after we found worms in her poo -- not related because all meat we feed is in a deep freeze for several days before feeding -- and so her tummy got another stress of dewormer. I'm not going to do anything new with her for a while so she can settle down a bit. I haven't seen solid poo from her in a week.


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## MagicRe

Sasha1/2 said:


> No, she gets 8 oz three times per day, so at one meal I gave her 4oz of elk which was way too much. Shortly after we found worms in her poo -- not related because all meat we feed is in a deep freeze for several days before feeding -- and so her tummy got another stress of dewormer. I'm not going to do anything new with her for a while so she can settle down a bit. I haven't seen solid poo from her in a week.


when it rains it pours. my friend uses grape seed extract and ground pumpkin seed as a dewormer.....just an fyi


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## FrenchBasset

Hi again,
thanks for the clarification!! it is quite confusing actually what's organs and what's not. But I'll now make a list. But it seems probably liver, kidney and perhaps pancreas are the easier for me to find. 

now reporting on the progress. Charly does well with pork ribs. His stool was a bit dry and powdery so I probably need to mix it up with more meaty food.

Today is a very interesting day. We picked up a 2kg cow tongue.. 
It was rather gross to be honest, and i had to divide it to smaller meals.. But I am sure I wont buy this too often because I didnt realise it is rather expensive, over 7Euro per kg!! And I thought it is probably something butchers discard everyday.. 
On the other hand, we get very low priced beef heart, and the calf ribs were free. Chicken neck was tiny, almost like an intestine.. and it cost 10 cent for 2.. Pardon my ignorance but these are all very new (and overwhelming) to me!!
I attached a pix of Charly enjoying the calf ribs.. That look on his face, priceless!!! 

Today's meal consist of 1 individual pork rib, 90grams of cow tongue, 90grams of beef heart and part of calf ribs which he consumed down to the hard part of the bone, which then I removed it. 

Hopefully his stomach is doing ok with these.. 


Last but not least, you are absoultely right about not letting him be the boss. I am very lousy in this, and definitely room for improvement!!


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## MagicRe

at some point, he may well be able to eat calf ribs...i would not expect it in the beginning...but one day. 

he should not be able to eat beef ribs from a mature cow....but they are good for what i call a complicated chew..they really have to work to get the meat off.

that is why i would want you to look for whole pork necks....marvelous feeds...they generally don't eat the bone, but whittle at it....and have to use all of their teeth...great for teeth cleaning and it makes them work, too.

that tongue is huge LOL....i'm glad you only fed a bit of it...every part of the animal, especially red meat animals...are richer than chicken....so it's good to err on the side of caution and introduce a bit at a time. my dogs can now eat lamb tongue for an entire meal, but in the beginning they would get little pieces....of cow tongue...

can you take a pic of the chicken neck? i'm almost thinking it's too small....but if he's a really careful eater, then it's fine.

my pug is a gulper; but, surprisingly, if i cut chicken feet into pieces, he doesn't just swallow, he crunches. then again, he is a very strange dog.

if you feed 5% liver and 5% kidney and/or pancreas, you're fine. that's what many dogs get. if you can get the liver and kidney from another animal, that's great too.....it's the vitamins you want to give.

and, yes, don't create a picky eater. find other ways to spoil that adorable dog.


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## FrenchBasset

Unfortunately I've put the chicken necks in one of the meal bags in the freezer, as I don't want to introduce too many new things at once. I'll take a pix when I pick up the next order next week. But to give you an idea, it is about the size/length of white asparagus, the thick type, and width is about the same as my thumb. I imagined it to be boney but it was soft and smooth with the skin on.. Probably need to monitor to prevent him swallow it whole as it is very smooth/slippery... 
Btw, I googled and learnt that apparently cow tongue is not an uncommon dish, for human.. It is even very rich in nutrition:
******
Putting cow tongue in your meal plan gives you access to an excellent supply of vitamin B-12, a vitamin involved in metabolism. You also need it to help form red blood cells. A 3-oz.serving of cow tongue has 44.3 percent of the daily recommended value of vitamin B-12, which your body can store. Cow tongue contains other B vitamins as well; one serving provides approximately 14 percent of the daily recommended value of vitamins B2 and B3.

MINERALS
Cow tongue provides 23.2 percent of the recommended daily intake of zinc per serving. This mineral resides in every cell of your body and it impacts your immune system, fertility, vision and senses of taste and smell. It acts as an antioxidant as well, giving your tissues and organs protection from free radical damage. One serving of cow tongue also contains 16 percent of selenium and approximately 12 percent of the iron and phosphorus your need daily.
****

So it seems that it covers the vitamin & mineral sections as well ;-) can you advise if these are also good for dogs too? I really don't know abt selenium or phosphorus.. I supposed the various vitamin B are good for dogs. 

The calf ribs are very soft actually, it is just that I gave him the only Y part which was hard in the middle, as i want to monitor and get rid of it first. The rest are the rib pack which I can easily divide by slightly twist it with hands then break it with knife, for meal sizes. 
I'll look up pork neck in a month or so. I guess Charly can use some times to get used to all the newbies so far. Does pork smell more than beef? Personally I rarely eat pork and always find it a bit smelly. I do hv some pork meat in the freezer but they are in 1-go size so I don't hv to keep it longer than a day in the fridge... In case it smells.


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## MagicRe

you can give him a rack of ribs....two to three, not just one by itself....and as he gets stronger, and he will, he will eat them. my pug can power through a calf rib now.

if you were to look up each and every part of each and every animal, you'll see they all have something to offer. some more than others....

i grew up eating tongue. it's wonderful....different but wonderful....

you are right. he needs time to get used to all of these proteins. i really do believe that it takes a year or so for full transition to the point where i think the gut flora can handle stinky meat.....


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## FrenchBasset

Thanks, MagicRe!
So far so good. I was wondering if anyone can share experiences on feeding beef lung? As I read here it is muscle meat, does it make the dog gassy? Is it as rich as the beef heart (although Charly is fine with the heart except for the first meal). 
I am thinking to place order today for next week pickup. My draft is:
- Calf ribs
- beef heart
- Calf neck if it has meat on
- beef lung? good idea?

i am trying to keep it simple for the next 2 weeks. Basically mixing boned meals + boneless meals.

Any ideas are welcomed 

thanks!!


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## Sasha1/2

I've been mixing bones, muscle meat and organs all into one meal for Sasha. She does well with this. Is there a disadvantage to mixing meat types in a meal? As for lung, I've only fed pork lung, so far, also as part of a mixed meal. It seems that Sasha can eat almost any raw meat. Elk has been her only problem, so far.


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## MagicRe

sasha, seems the gamier the meat, the richer it is....at least, that's my experience...

grass fed/grass finished red meats and game meats -- i intro'd more slowly.

beef lung, french bassett, is wonderful...but intro it slowly as it is very rich...

my dogs did not do well on it but that doesn't mean it's not an excellent source....i was using lamb lung...my friend uses lamb lung as a staple and her dogs are fine.

it really does depend on how it's intro'd and how your dog takes to it. 

so what you're saying is next week is an all beef week?

why no chicken? are you spoiling him again? LOL

moving from one protein to another is fine, but leaving out a protein is not necessary.....if that makes sense.


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## FrenchBasset

@Sasha, for Charly I only introduce one new meat at a time, but yeah, it is mixed with other type of meats, so far no problem. for the past days his meals were either 1 pork rib+ beef heart & tongue, or 1 calf rib+beef heart & tongue. Previously it was mixture of chicken (drumstick/quarter) and beef/minced.
@MagicRe, glad to hear beef lung is great, i'll introduce slowly. I googled the images they seem big, but should be quite neat and lean like the tongue/heart, so I can cut down to meal size and easier for packaging. I am not ready for big bulky items yet (like long neck or chicken back that I cant chop down)...
No, I didn't exclude chicken, it will come handy due to convenience, especially when we travel. But knowing Charly, I will treat chicken (for now) as something scarce and make him work for it. It is funny how he follow me around the kitchen these days, always keeping an eye if I am going to get him some food. This is a big change.
Today I sliced up some chicken hearts (halved them) and dehydrated them in the oven, to make treats. He sat pretty, watching, and I only gave him a half chicken heart, when I finished cutting. He swallowed it in no time, quite a difference from before. Anyway, it was so funny he waited and whined when the chicken heart was in the oven. The smell was quite strong and my partner complaint about it. So I'll only make the next batch when he (partner, not the dog) is not around next time.. Nevertheless the treats are stored in a container, in the fridge and should be good for a few days. Also tonight we had chicken dish so I gave Charly some 'waste', the fatty part of the chicken that I didnt use for cooking. He ate it in no time too. It is not the food that he is being picky about, it seems to be more like how he gets it that matters.. Have you ever watched a youtube video about "Basset hound want's what Dachhound is having"? the basset was sulking big time, a cookie lying in front of him untouched, and the dachhound happily enjoying his own cookie.. of course the cookies were all the same!! Bassets are funny dogs.
Now, back to feeding subject, I've new questions. I cut up the beef heart/tongue to meal size, whic is one big chunck probably around a tennis ball size, diameter wise. Now, I see how he consumed the meat from oxtail and also from ribs.. he can in fact get the meat out down to the bare bone. But for the muscle meat, he would chew from left cheek to right cheek back to left and right in his mouth, but within a couple of minutes, he is done with chewing and he swallowed the big chunck. I am a bit concerned about bloakage, as he is deep chested dog. (maybe I shouldn't, because he has consumed drumstick before and no problem, but i am just being my usual self worrying over everything)
Yesterday my partner gave Charly some of his lagsane leftover, which was probably about 50grams or more.. I know it is very bad but I couldnt stop him in time, and then I proceed to feed Charly like normal about 30mins later.. I took him for a 5km long slow walk after dinner, yet the whole night his stomach still rumbling so loud I worried sick about bloating or turned stomach.. (although I read the tips about listening to the stomach, if it is complete silence it is more likely to be a very serious sign)
Question: Is it ok if the dog consumed big chunk of muscle meat? How do you feed the muscle meat if you have small/medium size, which you can't give too big portion? Do you chop them to smaller pieces?
For RMB he get the meat out in smaller chunk, but without the bone it seems difficult to tear it? I watch him just in case of choking, but i am really concerned more about blokage than choking. 
Next order will be mostly beef, yes, but it will be served on the week after. Charly seems to be doing well with it, and i learnt (from this forum) that red meats are very nutritious, also i kind of like the tidiness of 1 rib + 2 big meat chunks (beef/tongue/lung).. His stool seems to be very dry and powdery with pork rib so I up the beef heart and now while it is firmer, it is also darker.. does red meat gives dark poop? 
Next week I'll mix some pork meat (boneless) with calf ribs too, so he gets 2 proteins. The chicken will come back in picture after this.
Oh another observation, Charly has lost about 400grams since the diet switch (over 2 months now maybe). He still looks lean, even showing a nice small fatty belly when lying down.. but the fact that he is losing weight is worrying my partner.. Is losing weight common, even he switched from ground raw food? 
Lastly, I want to thank you all for the tips. I must admit I am under a lot of pressures. If the dog stool is too hard/too soft, if he might be vomitting, if he loses weight, if he gets bloated.. The biggest reason I guess, is because I do feel like I need to convince my partner, he still think we'll go back to ground raw in the short future. He loves the dog no doubt, but he doesn't like the hassles (which I dont mind taking up the responsibilites of preparing the food), but also he is still concerned about nutrition deficiency/choking hazards etc. He did see the changes of appetite and also the whitier teeth, but he is the type that rather go safe (with pre-packaged, all done for you type). 
I know if something goes wrong we probably will have to go back to the old path.. ground raw :-(


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## Kathyy

Last time I gave Max a ball shaped chunk of meat wasn't so good. He got it down fine but up it came and he had to 'redo' it. I had been slicing through it most of the way a couple times into a W or N shape and didn't that time. That makes it into a floppy hard to swallow without lots of tooth marks piece of meat. Back to slicing through big chunks for me! 

I think dogs need to get toothmarks into the food as much as get it down their throats. Not for the digestive enzymes in the saliva because dogs don't have those, for entry places for the digestive process to get started once it is in the system.

Most of the time Max does get a mixed meat meal. I don't see any reason to feed all one meat at all. Most of the time he gets chicken for its bone content and either pork, beef, llama or ostrich for meat[lung!] and currently getting chicken and lamb liver with a mix of organs that includes other organs for most of his organ. When he gets lamb head that is all he gets, at least for the first day. I would have to add chicken meat to the chicken if I fed an all chicken meal, that isn't going to happen! Ostrich, beef and pork have bone Max doesn't care to work on enough to get enough bone.


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## MagicRe

that's how dogs eat. crunch crunch swallow. 

no lasagne. tsk tsk. smack partner LOL

if that happens again, feed less....it's going to happen until your partner realises that this is not good for digestion, causes gas and diarrhea...feeding two different types of food...

tomatoe sauce is never a good idea for dogs...to begin with...time to educate partner, eh? 

i would worry more, yes, about a silent belly than a noisy one. his digestive tract had to go into overdrive, that's all....

my pug cannot eat large pieces. his mouth is bigger than his larynx, so he tries to swallow pieces when they are too big....for him, i cut things up....

if you see he doesn't handle large ball like pieces well, then cut them up. he'll get enough exercise with bony things....

but. if i didn't, he would just hork it up and re eat it and hork it up and re eat it until it was a gooey mess and then he'd swallow.

sometimes, though it gets stuck, so for him, i do cut. it's a case of know thy dog.

for my corgi mix, she can eat big chunks. she is one like charly. first one side, then the other, then swallow. 

blockages usually come from socks. number one cause. kibble is up on the top ten, too.

the more red meat, the better....

yes, losing weight in the beginning is normal. your dog is transitioning and this can take from six months to a year. he doesn't look like he's starving and from your description, doesn't sound as if he is, either....

as he transitions and much of this depends on you and i know that you feel pressured, but there really isn't a wrong way....

just go slowly...feed less in the beginning, intro proteins slowly....and he'll be fine. your partner will either come around or he won't. but if charly does what i know he'll do, your partner can hardly argue with no vets, beautiful teeth, lean muscle....

there are more choking hazards to kibble than there will ever be to raw. that is not to say it cannot happen. of course it can and i could get hit by a bus crossing the street. i am always in the kitchen when my dogs eat, be it bony or meaty....or both...i stay until they are finished...that, to me, is the prudent way to be when feeding dogs and babies.

yes, red meat, especially beef heart will create a darker stool. chicken creates a lighter stool. when you start feeding organs, the stools will change.

and you are already learning that if the stool is too chalky or dry, add more boneless...too loose, add more bone....it's a balancing act...but i would implore you to not look for the perfect stool.

when my guys eat tripe, their stool is a little looser. when they eat rabbit heads, the eyes and brains balance the boniness, so their stools are perfect. 

each and every protein as you intro and mix will cause a certain kind of stool...some won't be as hard as others. that's not the standard by which i measure raw feeding.

i look at the happiness of my dogs at feeding time. i look at the variety i feed and their health.

i look at their stools and take note whether to add more bone or not.

i look at my thirteen year old girl who was fading on us two years ago and now acts half of her age. 

i look at my almost five year old pug and i gloat when the vet calls me to tell me the blood values were just too perfect, maybe there is something to this raw thing. 

i will never ever go back to kibble and my dogs started on the worst footing with horrid squirts because i listened to advice that just did not fit them...

the beauty of raw is i can start from square one. 

i keep slippery elm capsules in the house, along with hydrogen peroxide if i have to induce vomiting....i keep pedialyte (infant formula plain) in case.....and chicken broth, no salt. just in case.

in two years, i've had to use those medicines once per dog.

don't stop the chicken yet. he needs that still....his digestive tract isn't as progressed as my dogs are.....time is your friend.....go slowly....and you'll be fine.

you are so very attentive and that's good. very good. 

if your partner doesn't like the hassles, so be it. as long as you don't mind....but nutrition deficiency? nope. nope. nope. if anything your baby will be more nutritionally balanced than ever before...and it's a balance over time....

you don't eat every nutritional value daily.....you get what you need over time. the same applies to dogs. 

we'll get to organs, which are fat soluble vitamins....and if there are supplements you want to do, we can certainly look at what you want to add....never dairy though. most dogs are lactose intolerant....not even yoghurt. 

no grains no pasta.....dogs are not herbivores. that's why no lasagna....

he's doing well. he's doing very well.


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## wolfsnaps

I just want to throw out there to be careful with beef lung. LOL I got a boat load of it and just one set is ginormous. I cut it down into manageable portions to freeze and have my little dog a 2 inch long piece of trachea, my mastiff about 1 1/2 pounds of lung/trachea (too much but I got cocky) and my lab a couple chunks of lung. The small dog and lab got the hershey squirts. Lesson learned (but it was the poor dogs that had to pay).

Moral of my story? Only feed tiny pieces to begin with. My dogs have had deer lung before and I thought this was the same. I was wrong. So very very wrong. LOL

And I feed multiple proteins each meal. That is the only way I can give the the proper amount of bone (chicken) muscle (generally beef heart, venison, or whatever I have) and organ (generally from beef). I also give them fish oil and/or sardines (I am introducing fish slowly because I have a stinker who doesn't like it.


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## FrenchBasset

@wolfsnap, thanks for the headsup!! I've read some similar comments too so i will do a trial session, probably during the day then Charly have some times to digest it before bedtime..


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## FrenchBasset

@MagicRe & Kathyy, thanks again for clarifying. These answers are like manual to me now. It is always nice to confirm my observations to what I should expect. 
I can live with family members giving Charly treats, but I try to limit it to just meat, not carbohydrate. Even with Charly's grandma, instead of saying no, we say, ok this is the last one, this helps.
When Charly was little, i used to warm up some low fat milk for him when I felt he was hungry between meal times.. probably not good but from that i think he is ok with lactose, having say that, I wouldn't want to mess up his system so I don't do that anymore.
About big chunk muscle meats, indeed I'll cut up to smaller size, not too small but enough to ease my worry. I think the remark about toothmarks on meat make sense. And yes, I do observe him, I watch him from a distance but I pay attention. It is just one of the 'best practises'.
I absolutely agree with what you say about the happiness of the dogs at feeding time. I've never seen Charly enjoys his food so much, in the way it is supposed to be.. To me, a great day is when my dog eats (and enjoys) his food, we get to go for big long walk, and we snuggle up for a good night sleep. Nothing beats that. 
Btw 13 yo girl.. thats awesome!! I am very happy for you. May our precious dog(s) stay with us for as long as possible, and a little longer than that


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## FrenchBasset

Last night Charly behaved oddly right after meal. He has had pork rib for a week now, and I gave him a small chunk of pork chop in the morning, no problem. But evening meal, he had a calf rib, chunk of pork chop again, and also chunk of beef tongue and beef heart. He first spent some good 5 mins chewing on the rib, it seems that he really enjoy it, the way he chew it was his head tilted upward and doing all those nom nom nom, like a rebel street kid with chewing gum? I am not sure if he inhaled too much air from this act. 
Anyway, he proceed with the meat when he was done with the rib.

But as soon as he finished his meal, he started to go around the garden eating grass like crazy. he ate so much and so hard his rear legs so shaking. I had to get him in to distract him and to inspect if he was ok. When he wasn't eating grass, he behaves ok, no shaking. But he was desperate to go out to eat grass. I let him for a while then decided to take him for a short walk. He walked ok, distracted enough not to eat grass and when we are done, we went to bed. We took his temperature and he was fine. He woke twice apparently due to stomach discomfort. But he didnt try to throw up or anything. Other than this we had an uneventful night afterall, which was a relief.

Question: Have you seen such behavior in your dog? It happened straight after meal as if he realized he has ate something 'bad' and he needed to get it out of his system. I noticed this a couple of months ago when he had some Chinese leftover (very bad of us). But prior to this he normally only eat grass when he needs to throw up, but not right after meal.

Thanks for any comments!!


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## FrenchBasset

Status update: Morning meal was pork chop (~50grams). Slept whole morning (he always does that when we are gone, we check via cctv). 
Pooped during the midday walk, stool was fine. He get another small chunk pork chop for lunch and then he begged for more food. So he had an extra chunk of beef tongue... Lunch was not more than 100grams, so it wasn't heavy, although he normally gets only breakfast & dinner.
After lunch he resumed sleeping.

I did find some grass vomit in the garden, it was just grass and nothing else. seems to be from yesterday.

So he seems to be fine except a little more hungry than usual. He walked ok although not keen on long walk, so we kept it short. He is being laid back otherwise all signs are good, tail up, pinky gum etc.


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## Kathyy

Max has had a couple of tummy aches after meals lately. Bad mommy doesn't remember what the meal was however! You might look into getting slippery elm bark. It is a powdered herb you mix with warm water and let sit until it thickens up. I mixed up a 1 teaspoon of it, dabbed it on Max's nose so he had to lick it off. After a few dabs he decided it was okay and ate a little more and came on my lap for a cuddle. In about 5 minutes he relaxed and was feeling fine. I tried on me and it did help.

Max doesn't do well with chunks, I prefer to give him strips so he puts tooth holes in more of it.

Max never eats anything with his head tilted back, always his head is down or level if he is tossing the bit from side to side. I suspect you need to figure out how to make his food more awkwardly shaped so he cannot eat like that. Perhaps moving to feeding him once a day so he gets to eat bigger bits would help.


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## FrenchBasset

Hi Kathyy,
Many thanks for your explaination. MagicRe mentioned slippery elm before but I didn't know much about it, just looked it up and it seems to be very useful stuff. I need to look this up at the local store but first find out what it is called here.. 

I normally feed the RMB or the bony stuff after Charly had his muscle meat, I prefer him to eat the meat first then spend as much time as he likes on the bone. But yesterday I forgot and gave it all at once. 

I'll watch him and prevent him from eating the silly way again. 

thanks!!


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## Sasha1/2

FrenchBasset said:


> ... he started to go around the garden eating grass like crazy.


Sasha is a crazy grass eater, too. She doesn't throw it up, though. Maybe she just likes to finish her meal with a salad. 

:wink:


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## FrenchBasset

haha.. Does she act like she just had a spoonful of spicy curry and need a glass of water (grass)? that was how Charly reaction... not funny at the time though..


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## Sasha1/2

Nope. She just eats a lot of grass as if she's a horse or something. LOL We don't use herbicides and she doesn't vomit, so I let her do what she thinks she needs to do. Grass is better than socks, I think.


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## FrenchBasset

btw, the photo shows one of the chicken neck i got for Charly. As you can see from the picture, this one is slightly smaller than a teaspoon. The others are slightly longer but not thicker.
Is this safe to be fed or should I chop it to smaller pieces? Previously when I chopped off chicken bones, like the round part from the chicken leg, he loves to crunch on it and eat it safely. The problem I see with the neck is that if he swallow it as a whole, it might get stuck in his throat. Or smaller pieces pose the same risk?
He is 18kg medium size dog.

Any advises are greatly appreciated.


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## FrenchBasset

picked up some calf ribs and give-away from the butcher today. One bone is quite hard and I am not sure if it is safe for recreation chew. Please see attached photo. It is round shaped on one end, so could be leg bone. If I knock on it it sounded solid. 

Will you feed this or you think the risk of chipping teeth doesn't worth it?


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## Kathyy

I would pass on that one. Looks like the knob on the end of one of the leg bones, not sure if it is the front or rear leg.


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## FrenchBasset

Hi Kathyy,
Thanks for your comment. Yes, I picked it up shortly as there wasn't much meat on it. Charly tried to play with it, tried to tear the glue-ish tissue off the bone with his front teeth but I thought it didn't worth the risk.
Have you fed chicken neck? If so what do you think about the photo I posted here, the size of the chicken neck is about a teaspoon, some longer and some shorter. Is it recommended for a 18kg medium sized dog?

thanks


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## Kathyy

Max is about 17 kilos and is fine with chicken necks NOW. Early on he did swallow one whole with no issues other than he didn't get any nutrition from it as it came out the other end just a little dehydrated looking.

Max has a smaller head than a bassett though. It isn't about a dog's general size, it is about the size of the mouth and what follows. Chances are he is not going to show it much respect and swallow it without much chomping.

I like to give Max chicken necks as calcium sources when we get whole chickens but I would never buy them on purpose.


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## FrenchBasset

Hi Kathyy,
Many thanks for sharing your opinion.
I have to admit I didn't have good feeling about chicken neck as well, at least not the way I can get it. I looked up dog anatomy diagram, it seems that it is risky if Charly swallow it and it gets stuck in the throat. I only got 2 as I didn't know in what condition they come with (skin on/skin off, length etc), I figured I can omit this.

I learnt a lot from the comment about size of the dog head/mouth, indeed the body weight gives little indication. 

Btw, I've compiled a spreadsheet with the nutrition info I extract from http://nutritiondata.self.com/ and http://www.peteducation.com/category.cfm?c=2+1662

Basically I jot down what vitamins and minerals are required for dogs, and make a chart. I then go to the nutrition data and enter the food that I've been feeding to Charly, or plan to give him. I only ticked on the presence of the substance. I have to choose the raw option to get the respective nutrition facts.

When I've more time, I'll also try to work out the quantity. I find especially the nutrition data website is very useful, it gives a great insight for what we are feeding our dogs. I'll also update it when I add in more variety in time to come. I tried to upload the excel spreadsheet but it seems not supported, so i made a screenshot.

Hope this is useful for all the new raw feeders, and anyone who might be interested as well.


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## FrenchBasset

btw, picked up this gigantic beef lung from the butcher, for free  
I must admit I am very pleased with these giveaways from the butchers. And a lot of other stuffs are rather low price too, 2 pork feet (unsliced) costs 55cents. Pork heart and beef heart are relatively cheap too. 
I returned the favor by purchased some stuff from the shop as well, such as oxtail or beef tongue, they are rather expensive, but if divide into small meals and combine with the other cheaper stuff, the average cost per meal is quite reasonable. 

Picture attached for those interested to see the actual size (I had no idea how big it is). Actually, it seems only half of the lung, but nevertheless more than enough for a while. 

As warned, I only gave 2 small chunks to Charly, see how he is doing with it in his little tummy.. Once cut up, there are a lot of (air?) tubes in it.. Hopefully it won't cause cannon butt.. 

I'll report back on the progress.


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## MagicRe

FrenchBasset said:


> btw, the photo shows one of the chicken neck i got for Charly. As you can see from the picture, this one is slightly smaller than a teaspoon. The others are slightly longer but not thicker.
> Is this safe to be fed or should I chop it to smaller pieces? Previously when I chopped off chicken bones, like the round part from the chicken leg, he loves to crunch on it and eat it safely. The problem I see with the neck is that if he swallow it as a whole, it might get stuck in his throat. Or smaller pieces pose the same risk?
> He is 18kg medium size dog.
> 
> Any advises are greatly appreciated.


i think chicken necks are too small for his size....i think duck necks or turkey necks would be preferable...

and yes, every medicine cabinet, i think, should have slippery elm bark, manuka raw honey, bovine colustrum, primal defense ultra probiotic, nutiva coconut oil, pedialyte (infant - plain) and no salt chicken broth.

dogs get belly aches as we do.

here is when i ask you to stop trying to control how he eats....if you want to hold the boney part of his meal so that he becomes a thoughtful eater, that's fine. 

but i think he already is a thoughtful eater...

i would definitely put him on a larger bone, like two to three pork ribs attached...make him work...

if you can get whole pork necks, he will love it and it's a complicated chew.

there is always a risk of choking. the number one risk to dogs? socks. 

bones are rare, even when swallowed whole.

if he does swallow a chicken neck whole, it's because it is too small for his mouth...please don't cut them up....he needs to learn how to eat bones....

calf ribs are great to give....

the one in your picture, i would not feed. we call them 'wreck-reational' because it's that one time you think it's safe and bam. fracture the tooth.

some people go a lifetime without having a problem. others do. more do than don't. to me, it's not worth the risk.

if he wants to eat grass, let him. dogs know instinctively....

lung is awesome...and i applaud the spreadshhet....

give lung in small doses as it is pretty rich....it's a good side dish and can become an entire meal, but as with heart and liver and such, it needs to be intro'd in small quantities and built up over time.

he has a large mouth.....and should be able to handle ribs attached, be they goat or lamb or pork....or calf.

no leg bones or knees of ungulates, like cow or elk or moose.

venison ribs are fine...i'd keep them attached.

emu ribs are fine, too....

llama and ostrich ribs are fine.

legs, not so much...

you can feed every part of any animal, for the most part and tripe would be a good addition too.

but, after you've taught him how to eat, time to step back and let him eat.


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## MagicRe

FrenchBasset said:


> Status update: Morning meal was pork chop (~50grams). Slept whole morning (he always does that when we are gone, we check via cctv).
> Pooped during the midday walk, stool was fine. He get another small chunk pork chop for lunch and then he begged for more food. So he had an extra chunk of beef tongue... Lunch was not more than 100grams, so it wasn't heavy, although he normally gets only breakfast & dinner.
> After lunch he resumed sleeping.
> 
> I did find some grass vomit in the garden, it was just grass and nothing else. seems to be from yesterday.
> 
> So he seems to be fine except a little more hungry than usual. He walked ok although not keen on long walk, so we kept it short. He is being laid back otherwise all signs are good, tail up, pinky gum etc.


is the pork chop the kind that you get from the butcher and has been sawed into a chop? 

if so, anything cut with a band saw might have some sharp edges, even though it has meat on it....i'd not feed chops. you eat them. 

i would get racks of pork ribs instead.

i would also get what we call shoulder pork roasts or picnic or pork butt or pork belly if you can.

the only time i would feed mince is when i'm putting pills in it and then i make little meatballs.

also, buying a chicken whole , at least for us, is cheaper. that way you can feed the whole chicken cut into four parts...when you are feeding chicken. and the neck is then part of the whole.

the pork chop may well have irritated his esophagus and intestines.....don't know for sure.


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## Kathyy

Love the screen shot! Would help those that think meat isn't nutritious enough on its own for sure. I couldn't read what column K was though.

Max is getting llama lung now as I lucked onto a big box of it. I love using it, especially cooking it for his agility treats. It is rich in iron, similar to heart. Last night we were getting gassed a bit as he had a chunk of that, an egg and a good chew on a meaty lamb bone for dinner. Any of those can cause a bit of stinky butt and I offered up all three! I did make sure to cut half way through it so it was all floppy and couldn't be gulped down whole.


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## FrenchBasset

@MagicRe, thanks. Yes, it is indeed too small for him. I will try to order turkey necks next time. I didnt feed the chicken neck and I didn't let him have the leg bone any longer, it just caused too much worries and didn't worth it. When the vet tried to discourage us from giving bone (my first attempt of getting Charly to rmb, more than a year ago), he used the chicken neck splinter as threat, said he has seen enough cases of that, and the threat did work. I didn't expect conventional vets to support feeding RMB, but I rather do it safe and look for other alternatives, it is a lot of pressure to face them in the case my dog does end up in the clinic and required explainations.
this weekend I am going to herb store to find slippery elm powder.

I attached here a picture of the pork chop I got him from the supermarket. It is called pork shoulder chop in Dutch and it has tiny round bone in it. I inspected it, it wasn't sharp or anything, Charly ate it alright. He would chew on it for so long and sometimes it got stuck in his lips on the side.. He would then try to 'paw' it out. At the beginning I did help him, just get my fingers in and pick it up (oh my mom was terrified of the idea.. but I've a very docile dog) but now I see that he can get it out by himself.. He does has very big lips.. see attached pix.. lol 

About the lung.. hehe.. 4 hours later, he got loose stool.. from 2 small chunks!! Good thing I listened to the advises here. I'll give him again (small quantity) tomorrow and sunday morning, so in case it gets messy it happens during the day, easier for me. 

I would love to get all the game ribs you mentioned, but it is very rare here not to mention it will be extremely pricey. Another thing, I am really curious how you guys store these bulky items? For now I fed muscle meat + almost meatless ribs. The ribs have marrow in it and tiny chunk of meat, and fat, but thats all. So my RMB is not really meaty at all. I've a 3-drawers freezer which 2 are already dedicated for dog food. I am not trying to control how he eats, it is just seems to be more convenient to pack various muscle meats in bags. and container for bony ribs otherwise it cut through th bags as I squash the space. I read the rule of raw feeding is feed big, but I imagined having rack of ribs or chicken quarter will be very space consuming. I am going to do some spring clean and re-arrangment to make space.

@Kathyy, yes I was suprised to find just how nutritious each and every meat type consists of. But as I made the chart, it also helps to see what it doesn't have and what comes in to complement the other. For instance, feeding chicken breast only will cause lack of Vitamin C. So it can also be helpful to emphasis variety.
Column K is Biotin. I've to make the colume very narrow to fit in the screen. I have no idea what that is. I also couldn't find any food contains Glucosamine and Chondroitin from the nutrition data website. But I read these are in soft bones, so as long as the dogs are eating soft bones, they should get it easily. 

Btw, has anyone fed pork feet? I got a couple and it comes unsliced, with nails on (which btw very gross to me!! This caused a mental image, I used to adore Charly's pretty feet, now i think about the poor piglets when I see Charly's feet... ) I've not yet feed this, just got a couple to try later. It has not too much vitamins, but it does has enough minerals. some say it is very bony (hard stool) and some say it is very fatty (diarrhea).. very contrasting.. 


thanks again for all feedback. sorry I am asking lots of questions but I learnt a lot from just asking. I really appreciate all the answers and opinions.


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## MagicRe

duck necks work too.....they are a nice soft bone...but really, if you buy whole chickens, you can cut that chicken right down the middle splitting it and then turning the piece around and cutting that in half...perfect size and the neck is attached..and then it's okay to feed.

that pork chop is machine cut. even small and round, i'd have a problem feeding it because it is so small...the trachea is only so wide.....not worth it. stick to ribs....or buy the whole shoulder and cut meat off until you get to the bone and give him the shoulder bone....with meat on it. he'll love you for it.

i think he's learned. now it's time for you to let him eat.

i'm not saying that you can get them....i'm just saying ribs are better, in my opinion...and many of them are edible, other than mature cow ribs...we use beef ribs, not calf ribs just for teeth work....plenty of meat for them to get off but they don't eat the bone and it gives them a nice workout....helps jaw and neck muscle strength and keeps teeth nice and clean. 

of course, not feeding carbs keeps teeth nice and clean.

feeding muscle meat and ribs are fine....make sure you give enough fat to your dog and marrow is excellent. your chart shows that he's getting all that he needs...

it's not always best to feed big. it's just a guideline. some dogs do better with a whole chicken thrown at them. 

my one dog could handle big food...because she is a self regulater and doesn't gulp. my other one could down a whole chicken before i could get it out of his mouth, so no. if you feed the entire chicken, you've achieved balance over time, which is the goal. not balance over every meal.

for him, too, i have learned to cut chicken feet, for example, into small pieces....it's what gets him to crunch, rather than swallow whole.

it's all a case of know thy dog and i think you're beginning to get a feel for how charlie eats....so it matters not what i say.....or anyone says....in how you feed your dog..

you already have it down as to what to feed your dog....

we're here now to give advice or little tricks to the trade, like when you got advice about lung and it being very rich. it is that. my dogs cannot handle lung....which is a shame because i can get lamb lung for free 

dogs make their own vitamin C.....and tendon, cartilage has chondroitin in it. 

but i also give supps to my dogs. one is old and she gets Connectin. they both get BioPrep II. and they get Carlson's Fish Oil with Vitamin E from d-alpha tocopherols, even though they eat fish.

other than that, they get everything they need.

you can feed pig feet. it's a nice fatty recreational chew..

http://www.wolframalpha.com/entities/foods/pig_foot/3i/0f/6i/

and has some good stuff in it. not for a steady diet, but it's a good chew. we use chicken feet too, with the nails. good source of nutrients in those nails.


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## FrenchBasset

Thanks for your reply, MagicRe!
Good news.. we've gotten Slippery Elm powder!! Searched through local stores but couldn't find it, web order from UK was the answer. 
Addition to the feeding varieties:
pig foot turned out to be a fun chew indeed. It took Charly 2 hours to get through only half of it. But he sure had fun, and the sad look when I take it away. 
Question: how long do you let your dog gnaw on recreational bone? Is there any safety precautions? 
I do agree feed big might not fits all. And Charly surprised me how he varies his eating speed. Some days he chew things nicely, some day the food dissappears within seconds.. It did scare me a little to be honest. I thought he is not able to consume certain bones (like the hard part of ribs) yet, as he always left him behind, but recently he just eat/swallow? them at times. maybe hunger plays a role too. 

Also added beef liver to the bowl, it was ok the first day (one nail size) but second day i got ambitious and gave him more(4 x nail size), since he loves it, but it gave him diarrhea. Nothing serious, but lesson learnt. 
I am also taking lung out for now. Charly doesn't seem to do well with it.. Will try kidney in a few weeks.
This week i ordered pork ribs (with thick fatty meat), pig heel, and cow pens stomach(tripe) straight from butcher, should be interesting. 
Also found some interesting websites selling fresh meat for dogs.. including rabbit head, duck/turkey/chicken neck, beef/lamb/deer stomach, organs, duck carcase, even horse meat and exotic stuff like whole rat, whole baby rabbit (fur/skin attached), quail, hamster, pheasants, pigeon, also fishes! I probably will skip these for a long while.. but definately no problem for variety down the road. 
All are pretty low prices although i need to order about >10kg for free delivery, while I dont mind the volume, the existing 2 freezer drawer dedicated for Charly might not be enough. Not sure if it is cheaper to just pay 7.50 Euro per each delivery or investing in a new freezer and extra electricity costs? 
Nevertheless was very pleased with the finding. It makes raw feed a lot easier. I must say to all new raw feeders, dont forget to search online and you'll be surprised what you can find!!

Thanks again everyone for your input. I'll pose more pix when available, for reference purpose.


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## MagicRe

yay on the slippery elm. use with discretion. not all diarrhea needs it...just the one where they are going every hour...ya know?

if i give my dogs beef ribs or lamb necks, i let them have it until they walk away, which, at some point they will. i don't let it dry out...then it's dry and splintery and is kind of not the point.

ok. lesson learnt on the liver  

try the lung again another time. remember, transition can take up to a year....some proteins are too rich for the newly transitioned dog....but a year from now and yes, the lung will still be fine if kept frozen....

skip the exotics for now.....see above for why. 

let's get the basics in....

we have two and a half freezers. our dogs have two freezers. we have a drawer in one of them. 

we share the one in the house with them. so they pretty much occupy our freezers. we belong to an awesome co op.....and the proteins come at us every few weeks...in bulk, of course.

my husband calls me a protein collector.....and it's true. but i cannot pass up elk. or venison....

you have some nice proteins you'll be able to use later on...i wish we could get horse, but it is not available here in the states, yet.

we also order online...especially the proteins we don't get from our co op....i love rabbit heads because of the eyes and brains....good for my dogs.

and tripe. i think tripe is great.....for dogs. it's another one you may want to consider...again intro'ing it very slowly....

i am so glad you are doing this because you're so into it and your dog is benefiting in such wondrous ways that you'll see now and as you go.


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## FrenchBasset

Thanks for the support, MagicRe!

Protein collector, now that's today's belly laugh!!! I know what you mean tough, we all go out of our ways for our best furry babies!!


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## Kathyy

^+1

Good job on the liver!

I only have used slippery elm bark for upset tummies. Max has had soft stool but that is about it. The one time he got a case of diarrhea I fasted him for a day with liquid only and fed him zero fat bland chicken and rice in spoonfuls many times during the day. So if he got diarrhea now he is on raw I probably would try the SEB with skinned chicken backs and breast in very small amounts often after a fast.

38 pound Max who eats about 20 pounds of meat a month has a whole 14 cubic foot freezer pretty much to himself as to offer variety I need to buy 10-20 pound boxes of all those goodies. When I packed less than a freezer shelf full monthly he was getting one type of bone, one type of boneless, one organ and one liver for the whole month to get good enough prices.


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## MagicRe

kathyy, that is how we use SEB....also. it's a go to for gastro enteritis, not the occasional soft stool....agreed.

it took us a while, but now i like having three or four proteins in the fridge so they can have variety....


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## FrenchBasset

Thanks Kathyy &MagicRe for explaining the use of SEB. Yes, that's my intention too. 
And I thought we given up ice cream to make space for Charly's food was big deal (to us)... Things we do


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## Sasha1/2

I can get an excellent price on lamb hearts from a local organic producer. Sasha hasn't had lamb before. Are there concerns about her getting quite a bit of lamb heart once I ease her on to it? Would including chicken wings, chicken feet and whole eggs provide the balance she needs?


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## FrenchBasset

for the past weeks, Charly had goat heart and also lamb heart. He loves it. His diet already consists of beef heart, pork heart and chicken heart, so far no problem with the new proteins. The goat heart did come with a layer of fat (or fatty tissue?) on it. I feed almost half of his diet with heart, along with other RMB.


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## MagicRe

heart good. lamb heart, pork heart, beef heart, goat heart. all good.

as you get into your raw feeding, the less chicken fed, the better. chicken is good for edible bone. breast meat is for humans. dark meat for dogs....

carcass for dogs. good.

but feeding red meats, which include game meats...that's what dogs need more than anything.

heart is usually found more cheaply than other cuts from different animals......and that's fine. it's a little powerhouse of nutrients.

but. having said that, over time, feed as many proteins as you can afford, even if it is in tiny bits....remember. balance over time. not in one day


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## FrenchBasset

Forgot to mention, I also started feeding duck neck  much better size than chicken neck. Will get turkey neck next time as I understand it is even bigger!!
I even got the cheeky bugger cow pens/tripe.. Bought a 1kg minced package and a 3kg whole pens. Knowing my dog i started with 1kg bag.. He didn't like it!! He ate it but wasn't crazy about it.. Now I will keep the 3kg pens in the freezer as I don't want to keep the smelly stuff in the fridge too long once thawed.. I was kind of hoping he would love it as I can also get whole lamb pens!! I think I need to wait till winter that's when he eats a lot more of everything.. :-/


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## MagicRe

LOL....my friend is able to get penis and his dog loves it.....i wish i could get it....

i do love duck necks. and prefer them to chicken necks....although they are a little fattier than other necks.....i just cut a little off and save it for other times, like goat..which is lean and rabbit, too.

feed the penis tripe with other tripes....freeze it in small amounts. tripe only needs to be fed a table spoon or two at a time..it's kind of like a vitamin to me.....a supplement....lots feed it as a whole meal. i don't as it makes my dogs throw up ....they don't have iron guts...

i would divide the 3 kgs into more manageable sizes and pull it out when you want to feed it along with another meal. 

you're really getting into these proteins....i'm so glad for both of you.


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## FrenchBasset

Thanks, MagicRe!!


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## Engström

Wow thanks for all these resources. I hope I wont get confused to use few for my Tina, she is just 2 years old.


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## adamsipowicz

I I started with Dog Raw Diet Calculator. The ideal app for dog owners with an interest in raw diets. https://play.google.com/store/search?q=pub:PetDietExperts.com . Here is a diet http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/320/screenshot586546.jpg for my Border Collie.


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## Sibe

adamsipowicz said:


> I I started with Dog Raw Diet Calculator. The ideal app for dog owners with an interest in raw diets. https://play.google.com/store/search?q=pub:PetDietExperts.com . Here is a diet http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/320/screenshot586546.jpg for my Border Collie.


Interesting. Why cook the fish, and why include veggie mix? Isn't it easier to get what's available instead of seeking out such specific things, or do you put in what you have available?

Also you do not need to feed twice a day. Puppies do need to eat more often but adult dogs over a year old (or maybe a bit older for giant breeds) are fine on once a day.


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## adamsipowicz

Sibe said:


> Interesting. Why cook the fish, and why include veggie mix? Isn't it easier to get what's available instead of seeking out such specific things, or do you put in what you have available?
> 
> Also you do not need to feed twice a day. Puppies do need to eat more often but adult dogs over a year old (or maybe a bit older for giant breeds) are fine on once a day.


I asked my vet about about vegetables and cooked fish. He told me that a small amount of vegetables (10%) is recommended. Raw fish may be infected with the Neorickettsia helminthoeca parasite causes Salmon poisoning disease (SPD) in dogs. I generally do't give fish to dogs. My dogs eat a little more raw beef or beef green triple. When it comes to veggie mix my dogs eat a carrot or an apple every other day.


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## MagicRe

that particular parasite is found in salmon from the pacific northwest. i do not recommend feeding alaskan or PNW salmon.

atlantic salmon is farmed, so its nutritional value is already in question as would other fish which is farmed, such as tilapia.

but fish that has been frozen properly, such as sardines, herring, mackerel and anchovies are excellent sources of omega threes.

i believe your vet is mis informed about dogs needing vegetables. dogs are not omnivores. they are carnivores.

carrots and apples, particularly are very high in sugar. dogs do not have the ability to break it down. the sugar hurts their teeth.


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## Sibe

That's only a concern with wild-caught salmonids in the Pacific Northwest of the United States. "Salmonids" includes salmon of course (see pic) but also trout, whitefish, grayling, and char. These specific fish in this specific location from southern Alaska to mid California may have the parasite responsible for salmon poisoning. Freezing the fish solid will again kill the parasite. One week of freezing is surely enough, but 2 weeks is what I would personally do. ANY wild-caught meat of any kind should be frozen for at least a week to kill parasites.









Be aware of mercury levels too.









Dogs do not need veggies as long as they are being fed a proper varied raw diet. The only way they can get any nutrition out of them is if they are pureed and cooked.

And they are not omnivores, the are carnivores. They eat animals. They have teeth and a digestive system designed for meat, not plants. We all know they have pointy canines, but even in the back of their mouth their teeth are designed like scissors to cut, not flat surfaces for grinding plant matter.









That said, classification is somewhat BS. Giant Pandas are also classified as carnivores but they eat bamboo and no meat at all. Regardless, dogs are designed to eat meat.


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## MagicRe

FrenchBasset said:


> Forgot to mention, I also started feeding duck neck  much better size than chicken neck. Will get turkey neck next time as I understand it is even bigger!!
> I even got the cheeky bugger cow pens/tripe.. Bought a 1kg minced package and a 3kg whole pens. Knowing my dog i started with 1kg bag.. He didn't like it!! He ate it but wasn't crazy about it.. Now I will keep the 3kg pens in the freezer as I don't want to keep the smelly stuff in the fridge too long once thawed.. I was kind of hoping he would love it as I can also get whole lamb pens!! I think I need to wait till winter that's when he eats a lot more of everything.. :-/


how's everything going?


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## A-Blue-Roan

I recomend Raw and Natural Nutrition for dogs by Lew Olsan as its a great book with tones of home made recipes, great ideas, helpfull info and a great way to get started. I used to feed prize choice but was told that it was quite anemic looking which I didn't understand until I left it in the fridge over night, came to collect the next day to find it had drained of blood over night! If your in the UK many owners recomend Durham Animal Feeds suppliers to get your meat from or The Dog Food Company are pretty good. 

I chose to feed my dog on complete raw so I now I feed her Natural Instinct its all ready made up and excellent human grade quality meat for an affordable price. Becarefull when selecting meals though as some are filled out with chicken. Their lamb meals contain 40% chicken but are sold for the price of lamb! She also gets natures menue nuggets and the occasional butchers bones for almost nothing. 

I have also used Basil's Fine Foods which is excellent but expensive stuff yet again human grade quality meats the only reason we can't eat them is because of the bone content. Feeding complete is the hassle free way to feeding your dog raw a great way to give your dog something tastey without the fuss. You CAN change your dogs food at any time you like provided your dog doesn't have an issue with it's food being changed around as some dogs can get upset tummies if your change their food without carefully introducing the new stuff first but many dogs are happy to try something new.

SOME dogs may take a while to adapt to being fed raw especially if their used to being fed kibble/tins. Chicken is a gentle meat to get them started and whenever you choose to feed bones you should all ways keep an eye on them. Most dogs will happily chomp down bones without any issues. Dogs are of course carnivores and thus designed to eat _meat _. I believe that many commercial brands do not supply a high enough meat content to provide a well balanced meal and don't propperly lable what is in their tins.

All ways do your research before you change your dogs diet as you could do them more harm then good!


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## Sibe

^For organ 5% should always be liver, and 5% other like kidney, spleen, brain, or pancreas. Heart and lung are fed as meat not organ.
A lot of what you listed is boney, so make sure you're feeding around the 80% meat guideline (after the initial adjustment which is often higher in bone content to keep stools firm). You can find the bone content on the USDA website. Search for an item, click Full Report, and the "Refuse" will tell you how much bone there is. Chicken wings and necks are often not good to feed as stand alone items because they are so small. If attached to the rest of the bird or a bigger chunk it's fine. If your dog will chomp them up as individual parts, fine, but use care as they are the perfect size for a dog to try to swallow it whole.

It's better to continue feeding the the proteins your dog is already used to and adding to that, instead of completely switching from one to the next. I'm not sure if that's what you were implying or not.


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## kyran doyle

here's one 
http://www.dogchannel.com/dog-nutrition/raw-food-diets.aspx


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## twittle

I have a husky/ golden lab mix and she eats raw food. The only thing that you have to pay attention to is that they tend to want to go to the bathroom more. Also I have to limit how much she eats because too many raw foods will start her to gain more weight later down the road when she gets older.


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## mzink

Hello I have a question.  Over the past two weeks I have been using the raw diet threads on this forum as well as other websites as a guide for switching my dog to raw. So far so good, no stomach issues or problems adjusting. The reason I decided to try is because my dog has always had chronic skin issues. He gets rashes, welts, looses large patches of fur, gets lots of dandruff etc. I've tried tried special foods, special shampoos, sprays, products from his vet, all these things have helped with managing it but it does not get rid of it. Will switching to raw improve these problems? He doesn't have any other medical issues that could be causing this, its just the way he's been since he was a pup.


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## Sibe

mzink said:


> Hello I have a question.  Over the past two weeks I have been using the raw diet threads on this forum as well as other websites as a guide for switching my dog to raw. So far so good, no stomach issues or problems adjusting. The reason I decided to try is because my dog has always had chronic skin issues. He gets rashes, welts, looses large patches of fur, gets lots of dandruff etc. I've tried tried special foods, special shampoos, sprays, products from his vet, all these things have helped with managing it but it does not get rid of it. Will switching to raw improve these problems? He doesn't have any other medical issues that could be causing this, its just the way he's been since he was a pup.


 What have you been feeding so far?

A raw diet very often will help dogs with skin conditions and overall improve their immune health. However, not all allergies are food related and raw diet may not completely help- or even help at all. A friend's dog has really bad rashes and skin irritations that were so constant she thought it must be the food. She went to grain free food, and then to raw, with little improvement. Many, many allergy tests were conducted and finally she got an answer. He's allergic to dust mites! The raw diet has helped some, but controlling dust mites is pretty difficult so despite a raw diet he is still a little itchy. She is keeping him on raw as she's seen him improve from the raw diet, and wants to give him all the help she can. I've heard many, many cases of dogs with rashes, dry skin, constantly itching, and raw works like magic to solve the issue. It's not magic for every dog as environmental factors can be playing a role too, but raw is a great start and may be the solution for your dog.


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## mzink

Sibe said:


> What have you been feeding so far?
> 
> A raw diet very often will help dogs with skin conditions and overall improve their immune health. However, not all allergies are food related and raw diet may not completely help- or even help at all. A friend's dog has really bad rashes and skin irritations that were so constant she thought it must be the food. She went to grain free food, and then to raw, with little improvement. Many, many allergy tests were conducted and finally she got an answer. He's allergic to dust mites! The raw diet has helped some, but controlling dust mites is pretty difficult so despite a raw diet he is still a little itchy. She is keeping him on raw as she's seen him improve from the raw diet, and wants to give him all the help she can. I've heard many, many cases of dogs with rashes, dry skin, constantly itching, and raw works like magic to solve the issue. It's not magic for every dog as environmental factors can be playing a role too, but raw is a great start and may be the solution for your dog.


Thank you very much for the extra info! I have tried to make his environment as preventative as possible based on my own knowledge, I'll look into it again in case I'm missing something. 

So far I have been feeding chicken thighs, pork shoulder, beef liver, a little bit of pork ribs, a little bit of mackerel, and a little bit of sardines. Are there certain meats I should lean more toward to improve skin and coat? I am planning on ordering from the Hare Today website for things I cannot find on my own.

Edit: so far he has shown no digestive problems with what I have listed. The only difference I've noticed is smaller stool.


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## Sibe

Good variety so far! A fish oil supplement would be a good addition for Omega 3s which can really help their skin and coat. The mackerel and sardine are good as they offer some, but you'd have to feed waaay too much fish to make up the difference for what is lost in commercial non-organic meat.

You want to give fish oil, not cod liver oil. Krill oil is also fine. Go to a pharmacy such as Walgreens or CVS. Buying pet specific supplements from a pet store or anywhere else is often not a good idea for a couple reasons. Pet supplements are usually not regulated, and certainly not to the point that human grade supplements are. Pet specific supplements can also get away with not listing every ingredient. They can therefore add ingredients that are pointless at best and harmful at worst like flavorings or chemicals.

Go to the store and start looking at bottles. Look at the ingredients listed on the back. There should only be fish oil, gelatin, and glycerin. The gelatin and glycerin are the shell of the capsule. There should be no Vitamin E or mixed tocopherols which are usually soy; and no rosemary extract, citrus flavoring, or anything else. If you can't find any fish oil that doesn't have mixed tocopherols or Vitamin E and you don't want to order any, then I say it's fine to use it. There is very little soy in a gelcap and I think the benefits outweigh the no-no of giving soy. It's definitely best to avoid it if you can though. Currently the oil I give my girls has mixed tocopherols. If you are looking at salmon oil, make sure it clearly states it is wild salmon. Farmed salmon is to be avoided.

Here are a couple examples of what to look for on the bottle. 
[Note: I'm not specifically promoting these brands, these are simply two examples of fish oils that are good to use and I will be using them as references for how to read the labels.]









​









Ingredients are only fish oil, gelatin, and glycerin. It also specifies which fish are used. 



















Dosage: Look on the BACK of the bottle for the EPA and DHA information. Do not rely on what the front of the bottle says. The maintenance dose to bring Omega 3s and 6s back into balance is to give 100mg DHA+EPA per 10lb. For example, a 100 lb dog would need 1000mg, and a 15 lb dog would need 150mg. 

On the first bottle look about 2/3 of the way down the label where it says "Fish Body Oil Concentrate." One serving size is 1760mg which is what the front of the bottle says. The next line down says 870mg of Omega 3s. That's why you need to look at the back of the bottle for the numbers, not the front! Then look at the top of the label- Serving size is 2 softgels. That means each gel is 435mg of Omega 3s. More typical is what is shown on the label of the second bottle, with each gel containing 300mg of Omega 3s.

A 300mg gel would be the perfect daily dosage for a 30 lb dog, or two per day for a 60 lb dog, or 3 for a 90 lb dog. What if your dog is in the middle like mine are? Both my huskies weigh about 40 lbs. They would need 400mg per day. If I give them one gel per day they would end up short by 700mg for the week. So I give them an extra gel twice a week to make up the difference. It does not have to be an exact or perfect dosage.


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## Gally

Good info Sibe. I've been considering adding fish oil to Gally's diet now that he is fully transitioned.


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## mzink

Wow thanks a million for all the info on the supplements! I will pick some up from walgreens. Thanks for the details on what to look for! Much appreciated!


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## Gally

How much fish would you need to feed to make fish oil not worth supplementing? 

If I'm reading the numbers right my 25lb dog would need 250mg per day or 1,750mg per week. One 100g serving of raw mackerel has 2g of omega 3. A whole mackerel that I buy weighs about 0.5lbs which is roughly 225g so about 4.5g or 4500mg of omega 3. Would one raw mackerel be more then enough omega 3? I'm confused >.<


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## Sibe

I was unaware mackerel had so much. Apparently about twice as much as salmon has. I'm gonna have to dig into this more, as it's just what I've heard that you'd have to feed too much fish to make it worth it. Never actually looked up how much Omega is in a whole fish >.<


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## Kathyy

Gally said:


> How much fish would you need to feed to make fish oil not worth supplementing?
> 
> If I'm reading the numbers right my 25lb dog would need 250mg per day or 1,750mg per week. One 100g serving of raw mackerel has 2g of omega 3. A whole mackerel that I buy weighs about 0.5lbs which is roughly 225g so about 4.5g or 4500mg of omega 3. Would one raw mackerel be more then enough omega 3? I'm confused >.<


That is my understanding. I figure feeding about the same fatty fish a week as organ is plenty as each type of fatty fish has its own nutrient profile.


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## FrenchBasset

Hello MagicRe,
Sorry i haven't check back on this thread for a while. We had a bumpy road with Charly, he enjoyed the food but his bowel disagreed and he started losing weight. 
Meanwhile we needed to board him due to vacation so he had a chemical castration, which improved his appetite a great deal and we figured it was the best time to switch diet. He has been on a grainfree pre-packaged raw diet since. And he gained 2 kgs back. Now I am not sure if it was the new diet or the hormones, but he is eating well everyday and I can't be happier. I still give him oxtail to gnawl on once a week, and sometimes a drumstick for snack, but otherwise, we stick to the new diet.
It was a big learning experience nevertheless.

Lastly Merry Christmas to all and happy raw feeding


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## MagicRe

FrenchBasset said:


> Hello MagicRe,
> Sorry i haven't check back on this thread for a while. We had a bumpy road with Charly, he enjoyed the food but his bowel disagreed and he started losing weight.
> Meanwhile we needed to board him due to vacation so he had a chemical castration, which improved his appetite a great deal and we figured it was the best time to switch diet. He has been on a grainfree pre-packaged raw diet since. And he gained 2 kgs back. Now I am not sure if it was the new diet or the hormones, but he is eating well everyday and I can't be happier. I still give him oxtail to gnawl on once a week, and sometimes a drumstick for snack, but otherwise, we stick to the new diet.
> It was a big learning experience nevertheless.
> 
> Lastly Merry Christmas to all and happy raw feeding


i'm glad Charly is happy and that is, after all, what counts.

have a very Merry Christmas and yes, keep giving him some nice raw meaty bones for those teeth.....


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## Sibe

Beginner's Guide to Prey Model Raw. Anyone know who put this together?? It's really great.
Beginners Guide to Prey Model Raw


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## Kathyy

It was put together by a person on another forum, don't think we are allowed to say which one here. She had to convince her husband the diet was good for the dog and she asked loads of questions at that forum and edited and edited. Came out quite nice.


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## Sibe

Great success story! But wow that is a LOT of organ, and I would not call his diet balanced at all. Why so much? His diet is almost 50% organ. Basic guideline is 80% meat, 10% organ, 10% bone which is based on the makeup of a natural prey item like a deer. Also heart is meat, not organ. Do you use boney chicken or just the meat? He needs more edible bone for calcium and other minerals. Beef ribs are pretty hard. If his diet was actually complete and balanced he wouldn't need the multivitamin either. Why does he take it?


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## bullyt

Hi! I've been feeding my dog with dry and canned food for a while, but after reading some reviews  I decided it wasn't a good idea. So I took a decision to feed my Jack with raw food. What are the first steps to take to start feeding a dog with raw food? How to make these diet changes easier for a pet?


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## RonE

MagicRe said:


> and this is spam.


And this is back-seat moderating.

Don't quote spam.


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## kcomstoc

Sibe said:


> A 300mg gel would be the perfect daily dosage for a 30 lb dog, or two per day for a 60 lb dog, or 3 for a 90 lb dog. What if your dog is in the middle like mine are? Both my huskies weigh about 40 lbs. They would need 400mg per day. If I give them one gel per day they would end up short by 700mg for the week. So I give them an extra gel twice a week to make up the difference. It does not have to be an exact or perfect dosage.


 When do you start giving the fish oil pills?


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## Sibe

kcomstoc said:


> When do you start giving the fish oil pills?


 You can start Day 1. I didn't know about giving fish oil when I started, and I think Denali went about a year without out. She does get a bit of wild/naturally raised meat, and a whole sardine (I think technically they are pilchard since they are big) about once a week. Many people will notice how great their dog's skin and coat improve after the initial switch, then a few months in notice it's getting less soft and shiny if they're not supplementing.


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## kcomstoc

So from puppyhood, its ok  I was just wondering because I don't remember where (you'll hear this a lot from me because my memory is crap sometimes) that you have to wait a certain time to give them


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## Sibe

Chasingtails said:


> Hi, great topic. This is my first time to the forum and would love to help contribute in any way. Through my own research and feeding a number of dogs (some fussy some not), it usually depends on what foods your dog will eat. Here is a link to my page which lists all foods dogs can and cant eat and essentially sums up raw diets and BARF (biologically approved raw foods). http://www.chasingtails.info/1/post/2013/03/ear-infections.html#.UUq5dz2LMQs
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chasing Tails


 I disagree with some, like feeding carbs and plants as dogs have no biological need for either. A proper varied raw diet of meat, edible bones, and organs covers all the nutrition they need and is most species appropriate. You may need to add supplements like fish oil for omega 3 or others if the dog has specific health issues. Rice and potato don't give any unique nutrition and have no value to a carnivore. I also try to stay away from tuna due to mercury. Typically go for oily fish like sardine, smelt, herring, mackerel, and the like. Feeding once a day or less is perfectly fine for healthy adult dogs, you don't need to feed 2-3x a day. You do need to feed puppies often. I like the guideline that at a year old (or full grown) you can move to once a day if you want. 6-12 months feed twice a day. 4-6 months feed 3x a day. 2-4 months old, feed 4x a day. The meat does not need to be cooked in any way. That's why it's *raw* feeding. It's about feeding as natural as possible, as nature intended, and being species appropriate.


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## dane mummy

hi guys.... im new, so if im not ment to post in here, help me find the correct place. technology is not my thing!!! doggies are .
over the last week i have changed my danes over to raw. they had been having a raw brekky of frames or chicken necks for the longest time already. my first question is more about pickles, our 6 month old dane princess..... i had stayed with dry food for so long because danes grow so quick and are vunerable to growth problems if not fed correctly. and biccies provided peice of mind.. i measure her food and i know exactly what she is getting cos the packet tells me so!!!! however raw is a lil more in the air. how can i be certain that the raw diet i provide will give my girl everything she needs without her growing to quickly due to diet?? any advice or tips or slaps in the face greatly appreciated.


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## LokiLuna

I'm interested in starting my dogs on a diet like this, I'll probably keep dry dog food on hand, but here are my questions: 

Do I need to ween them onto the raw diet by feeding them a little less of the food they're used to and maybe start with a half a chicken breast each?

Do I need to worry about any bones choking them (like pin bones in fish or the tiny bones in wings, ect...)?

Can I go into a butcher and ask for meat scraps? Like fat trimmings, bones, and chicken necks. Do they even sell the hearts and kidneys? (Shamefully, I'm pretty clueless here. I live in a city and there are many butchers here, have I ever walked into one, no. I have no idea how this works!)

Nutritionally, how do I know if they're getting everything they need?

What I think I understand: minimal to zero grains, uncooked fruits and veggies, fish oil daily and raw egg every other day. Feed beef and chicken on separate days. ?

Not sure if this matters but one is 6 and the other is almost 2 yrs.


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## Gally

You don't need to wean them onto raw. You can switch them cold turkey, no pun intended, after a fast period of at least 12 hours.

With any diet there is always a risk of choking but as long as you give appropriately sized portions and your dog is chewing properly the risk isn't any higher than other diets. Bigger is actually better to prevent choking because it forces the dog to chew their food.

You can ask your butcher for off cuts but you will need to pay for them. Yes they sell the necks, hearts, backs etc. the price will probably be cheaper than other cuts but that really depends on where you live and what the market for those items are.

You need to feed 80% meat, 10% bone and 10% organ of a variety of proteins (at least 4) to balance the nutrient requirements of your dog. You can feed raw oily fish or use fish oil to supplement for omega-3s if you aren't feeding primarily free-range meat. You can do a yearly full blood panel on your dog to make sure they are doing well internally. You will also be able to see changes externally such as coat condition, eye goop, poop etc. to see how they are doing.

www.preymodelraw.com


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## LokiLuna

Thanks, especially for the percentages, that makes it much easier to plan. Hopefully I can start the new diet within the week.


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## Sibe

LokiLuna said:


> I'm interested in starting my dogs on a diet like this, I'll probably keep dry dog food on hand, but here are my questions:
> 
> Do I need to ween them onto the raw diet by feeding them a little less of the food they're used to and maybe start with a half a chicken breast each?
> 
> Do I need to worry about any bones choking them (like pin bones in fish or the tiny bones in wings, ect...)?
> 
> Can I go into a butcher and ask for meat scraps? Like fat trimmings, bones, and chicken necks. Do they even sell the hearts and kidneys? (Shamefully, I'm pretty clueless here. I live in a city and there are many butchers here, have I ever walked into one, no. I have no idea how this works!)
> 
> Nutritionally, how do I know if they're getting everything they need?
> 
> What I think I understand: minimal to zero grains, uncooked fruits and veggies, fish oil daily and raw egg every other day. Feed beef and chicken on separate days. ?
> 
> Not sure if this matters but one is 6 and the other is almost 2 yrs.


Here is the ultimate starting guide, give it a read!
http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com...88/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.6.pdf

-No weaning necessary. It's better to switch "cold turkey" as raw and dry digest differently so mixing can cause tummy upsets. It's often recommended to fast your dog for 12-14 hours (adult only, do not fast a puppy) then start on the raw. Expect loose stool at first! Some dogs adjust better than others, but expect to have a little digestive upset for about a week as their body adjusts.

-The bones you want to feed are the soft, flexible, edible bones like in poultry, fish, and small game. Do not feed plain chicken necks or wings as they are the perfect size and shape for your dog to want to gulp down whole. Feeding things semi-frozen will help them to chomp instead of swallowing whole. If your dog does swallow a larger piece of something and does not choke, then you're good to go! I've seen my 40 lb husky swallow an entire chicken drumstick and it digested just fine. Sometimes dogs will barf up things that are too big to sit comfortably in their stomach. It's fine to let them eat it again if they want it.

-You can call or walk in. I usually do something along the lines of "Hi, I make a homemade diet for my pets and was wondering if you have scraps and offal available like heart, liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, tongue, things like that." I say homemade instead of raw because to the uneducated you often experience shock and surprise and I don't want to spend my time explaining it lol. I explain as much as they want and ask though. I will also throw in how much I'm willing to pay pretty early int he conversation so I don't waste their time or mine.
*Co-ops are an AWESOME resource. http://www.dogaware.com/diet/rawgroups.html

-You can search on the USDA site and compare to the nutrient requirements of dogs. You'll be fine as long as you feed a variety and follow the 80-10-10 guideline like Gally said. Broken down, this means 80% muscle meat (roasts, steaks, any meat attached to bones, heart, lung, and tongue), 10% edible bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organ (brain, pancreas, spleen, kidney, ovary, testes.)

-Dogs are carnivores. They do not need plants at all. No grain, no veggies, no fruit. Uncooked veggies go right through! Give a carrot and you'll see all the bright orange bits in their poop the next day. Do not give dairy either, dogs are mammals and only need milk as infants. I do give mine some occasionally as a snack but it's not a significant part of their diet. A bit of carrot when I'm making a salad, a few blueberries that are too squishy for my liking, a nibble of banana, and let them lick out empty yogurt containers when I'm done with them. It's up to you if you and your dog's digestive system how often you give egg. Mine get 1-2 eggs per week. Some people give an egg a day, some people never give egg. I like the variety. 

-Do add fish oil daily unless you are able to feed meat that has been naturally fed (grass-fed beef, free-range chickens getting bugs and worms, etc). Commercially fed meat is very low in Omega 3.


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## pearl2013

Get essential information about feeding raw food to your dog from this link:
http://www.aboutdogfacts.com/raw-diet-for-dogs/


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## Sibe

pearl2013 said:


> Get essential information about feeding raw food to your dog from this link:
> http://www.aboutdogfacts.com/raw-diet-for-dogs/


Hmm.


> About 80 percent of muscle meat including the fat
> About 10 percent of organs
> 15-18 percent of green tripeAbout 10 percent of raw meaty bone
> Raw eggs


That equals about 120%.



> Your need to add some vegetable like carrots and spinach and fruits to the raw diet of your dog.


False. Dogs do not need plants (or dairy) in their diet.



> Try to alternate feeding your dog on raw food diet with something else like kibbles.


No! They digest differently and can cause bad tummy upsets if you mix. Some dogs do fine mixing but some don't. A clean switch is best, no mixing.


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## LokiLuna

Okay, so I've been feeding raw for about 3 weeks now. Today was the first day that I added chicken thighs and Loki got a bone lodged in his teeth, at first I thought he was choking. It was really scary. I tried removing it but it was really wedged in there, he finally dislodged it on his own, but I don't want anything like that to happen again. Not a great first experience for that. Anyway, another question or two; I completely understand that dogs don't need any type of plant source, but I always hear how good canned pumpkin and ground flax seeds are. I've even heard that you can use flax as a protein source. Opinions there? And I keep seeing that you have to feed green tripe. I have been feeding beef tripe, is okay?


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## Sibe

Canned pumpkin is a bandaid when your dog has diarrhea. Flax is probably recommended mainly for the Omega 3, but fish oil is a better source of it for dogs.

"Green" tripe means it is unwashed. It's a good thing to add! If all you can find is white, bleached, clean tripe then skip it. If it's white, it has no use. It should be greenish brown and stinky.

Good tripe:









Worthless tripe (Worthless for dogs! Fine to eat it yourself, I know there are a couple Mexican dishes that use tripe and probably many dishes I don't know of.)


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## shitzu1113

I have a 5 yr old shihtzu that I want to transition to raw food. How should I do this??? And what should I expect??


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## littlesoprano

So I've been researching raw, and more so observing since I joined, and I feel like its actually a pretty simple process that as long as I follow the guidelines, I could probably do quite easily. But my boyfriend has recently become pretty skeptical and told me that if the vet says its okay, he's up for it, if not he's still up to switching to a higher quality kibble, and of course the Stella & Chewy's really isn't too shabby of a food as a topper.


Does anyone have any advice about talking about this to a vet?
I'm pretty much thinking its going to go badly, but I would love if there was a way to bring it up with her that would make it seem like I have a planned, well-rounded diet that I would want to implement. (I'd be doing PMR as it seems to actually be quite a simple way to get all of Cosmo's needs met, and less complicated then BARF). 

I think I may write up what my plan for his diet is and show it to the vet to see whether or not she approves. so if I have anything wrong or if you have ideas on how else I could present my case for a raw diet, please butt in!!

I know how much Cosmo should eat in a week (he's 20 pounds which is what I believe to be is going to be pretty close to his adult diet), and it basically consists of 36 ounces of muscle meat, 4.5 ounces of bone, 2.25 ounces of liver, and 2.25 ounces of other organs (spleen, kidney, brain, pancreas). Every day he needs a total of 6.4 ounces of food. But aside from that I've only just recently started to calculate the bone percentages in foods I'd be giving, and how much of say a chicken neck he'd need.


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## taquitos

littlesoprano said:


> So I've been researching raw, and more so observing since I joined, and I feel like its actually a pretty simple process that as long as I follow the guidelines, I could probably do quite easily. But my boyfriend has recently become pretty skeptical and told me that if the vet says its okay, he's up for it, if not he's still up to switching to a higher quality kibble, and of course the Stella & Chewy's really isn't too shabby of a food as a topper.
> 
> 
> Does anyone have any advice about talking about this to a vet?
> I'm pretty much thinking its going to go badly, but I would love if there was a way to bring it up with her that would make it seem like I have a planned, well-rounded diet that I would want to implement. (I'd be doing PMR as it seems to actually be quite a simple way to get all of Cosmo's needs met, and less complicated then BARF).
> 
> I think I may write up what my plan for his diet is and show it to the vet to see whether or not she approves. so if I have anything wrong or if you have ideas on how else I could present my case for a raw diet, please butt in!!
> 
> I know how much Cosmo should eat in a week (he's 20 pounds which is what I believe to be is going to be pretty close to his adult diet), and it basically consists of 36 ounces of muscle meat, 4.5 ounces of bone, 2.25 ounces of liver, and 2.25 ounces of other organs (spleen, kidney, brain, pancreas). Every day he needs a total of 6.4 ounces of food. But aside from that I've only just recently started to calculate the bone percentages in foods I'd be giving, and how much of say a chicken neck he'd need.


Unless your vet is a holistic vet, I highly doubt he/she will tell you it is okay to feed a dog raw.

Have a look at what Dr Karen Becker and Dr Peter Dobias says to convince your boyfriend, maybe? Or I would contact a holistic vet in your area...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3wLTlqnMMg

Vets get very little training on nutrition from what I know, especially when it comes to raw food. Even Dr Sophia Yin knows nothing about raw food (try having a look at her website), the only info. she has on it are from seminars that examine incomplete raw diets like BARF.


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## littlesoprano

taquitos said:


> Unless your vet is a holistic vet, I highly doubt he/she will tell you it is okay to feed a dog raw.
> 
> Have a look at what Dr Karen Becker and Dr Peter Dobias says to convince your boyfriend, maybe? Or I would contact a holistic vet in your area...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3wLTlqnMMg
> 
> Vets get very little training on nutrition from what I know, especially when it comes to raw food. Even Dr Sophia Yin knows nothing about raw food (try having a look at her website), the only info. she has on it are from seminars that examine incomplete raw diets like BARF.


I don't know if she will tell me its okay (well theres actually 3 of them), but I just have a feeling if she says no, my BF is going to be much harder to convince haha. He just worries, and I understand his concern, we both care pretty deeply for Cosmo. 

I think most of it comes from the fact its "scary" and "complicated" but in your opinion is it really that hard? I feel like after some really heavy researching the last few weeks it finally clicked last night how this diet will probably be easier then I thought. As long as Cosmo is getting his organ and liver ratios, and the basic meat to bone ratios (of course in appropriately sized portions), we should be fine, I presume?


On the other side of it though Cosmo just had his second raw egg ever, and Koko actually just had her first (they both LOVED it), and he's totally fine with the raw egg, which some people seem to view as controversial so maybe I could use that as some leverage haha.


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## Sibe

If the vet says no, it's usually because 1) They're worried about bacteria harming you and 2) Feeding an unbalanced raw diet can be horrific and cause a lot of health problems. When it comes to bacteria, there is not a single case of salmonella confirmed to have been caused by feeding a raw diet to pets. You are trusted to handle raw meat for yourselves because you use common sense hygiene like washing your hands immediately after as well as all surfaces the meat touched. Do the same when your pet is done eating- and no puppy kisses after. Hundreds of people have gotten sick from salmonella in dry pet food, so saying raw is unsafe due to bacteria is ridiculous because dry processed foods have bacteria too. Make sure you do your research and understand what to feed, what not to feed, and follow the basic 80-10-10 guideline.
http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com...88/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.6.pdf

I suggest you find sources before you start to make sure you can ultimately be feeding at least 3 different protein sources (and ideally different cuts of the same animal) as well as a variety of organ. Liver should be around 5% of the diet and other organ 5%. That other organ is kidney, brain, spleen, pancreas, sweetbread (thymus), testes, ovaries, and arguably lung. Don't forget about feeding oily fish such as sardine, herring, mackerel, or smelt if you are feeding commercially raised grocery store quality meat (as most people do) or supp with fish oil. If you're giving fish, make sure they are wild caught. If you're giving fish oil, make sure the only ingredients of the gelcap are fish body oil, gelatin, and glycerin. No Vitamin E, mixed tocopherols, soy, rosemary, citrus, etc.


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## littlesoprano

Sibe said:


> If the vet says no, it's usually because 1) They're worried about bacteria harming you and 2) Feeding an unbalanced raw diet can be horrific and cause a lot of health problems. When it comes to bacteria, there is not a single case of salmonella confirmed to have been caused by feeding a raw diet to pets. You are trusted to handle raw meat for yourselves because you use common sense hygiene like washing your hands immediately after as well as all surfaces the meat touched. Do the same when your pet is done eating- and no puppy kisses after. Hundreds of people have gotten sick from salmonella in dry pet food, so saying raw is unsafe due to bacteria is ridiculous because dry processed foods have bacteria too. Make sure you do your research and understand what to feed, what not to feed, and follow the basic 80-10-10 guideline.
> http://www.chanceslittlewebsite.com...88/beginners_guide_to_prey_model_raw_rv.6.pdf
> 
> I suggest you find sources before you start to make sure you can ultimately be feeding at least 3 different protein sources (and ideally different cuts of the same animal) as well as a variety of organ. Liver should be around 5% of the diet and other organ 5%. That other organ is kidney, brain, spleen, pancreas, sweetbread (thymus), testes, ovaries, and arguably lung. Don't forget about feeding oily fish such as sardine, herring, mackerel, or smelt if you are feeding commercially raised grocery store quality meat (as most people do) or supp with fish oil. If you're giving fish, make sure they are wild caught. If you're giving fish oil, make sure the only ingredients of the gelcap are fish body oil, gelatin, and glycerin. No Vitamin E, mixed tocopherols, soy, rosemary, citrus, etc.


I believe it may have actually been you who posted it, but I've been following the Beginner's Guide to Prey Model Raw pdf file, and for some reason it made it seem a lot easier then I originally thought. I found mypetcarnivore which doesn't seem to have too bad of prices, and I can get a variety of meats from there. But I also have Sams Club, Costco, and a variety of local butchers as well. My Pet Carnivore has a pickup location right near where I live, which I figure would be a good source. I definitely will not be jumping right into it, and knowing myself will probably right out a 1-2 month plan of action, with all the math completed before I even begin to shop around or jump right into feeding him raw. I liked that the Beginner's Guide file said to break it up into a week of feeding, so some days I could feed say .5-1 ounce of liver, 4 ounces of RMB, 1 ounce of kidney etc, and then other days go with say tripe, lung, heart, and only a small amount of RMB, as long as I'm fulfilling the WEEKLY requirements. (From what I understand)


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## Sibe

Probably, it's my go-to link! Really great guide- but it is only a guide, there are so many ways of feeding raw and it's fine to tweak things. Many dogs need more or less bone for example to have good poops.

For future reference:
*Organ*
Liver
Brain
Kidney
Spleen
Pancreas
Sweetbread (thymus)
Testes
Ovaries

*Meat*
Heart
Gizzard
Stomach/tripe
Poultry eggs
Tongue
Penis (ahem, bully stick)
Uterus

Arguable:
Lung, technically should be fed as meat under the saying "If it does not secrete, feed it as meat" but it's an organ.


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## littlesoprano

Sibe said:


> Probably, it's my go-to link! Really great guide- but it is only a guide, there are so many ways of feeding raw and it's fine to tweak things. Many dogs need more or less bone for example to have good poops.
> 
> For future reference:
> *Organ*
> Liver
> Brain
> Kidney
> Spleen
> Pancreas
> Sweetbread (thymus)
> Testes
> Ovaries
> 
> *Meat*
> Heart
> Gizzard
> Stomach/tripe
> Poultry eggs
> Tongue
> Penis (ahem, bully stick)
> Uterus
> 
> Arguable:
> Lung, technically should be fed as meat under the saying "If it does not secrete, feed it as meat" but it's an organ.


Cosmo, as an example should get about 4.5 ounces of bone, in his diet for the week. Would it be okay to have days where there's no bone included, as long as his poop is good and his needs are being met thoroughout the week? From all the sights I've been reading from it seems that for liver and organ its okay to spread it out throughout the week as long as they get what they need, but is it alright to do the same with bone amounts?


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## taquitos

littlesoprano said:


> Cosmo, as an example should get about 4.5 ounces of bone, in his diet for the week. Would it be okay to have days where there's no bone included, as long as his poop is good and his needs are being met thoroughout the week? From all the sights I've been reading from it seems that for liver and organ its okay to spread it out throughout the week as long as they get what they need, but is it alright to do the same with bone amounts?


Yes but this is way later. At first you will want to introduce more bone. Dogs who don't get bone everyday in the beginning often get very soft stools. Oh, and make sure to pair organs with bone!!

ETA:

Also maybe ask him if he would give you a chance to show that it's good for the dogs. Ask him to give you like two months of trying raw. Tell him if it doesn't go well you will go back to kibble. Chances are in two months you will probably see a big improvement in your dog's health and that should give you a bit of leverage 

My boyfriend was a bit skeptical at first too... heck, even I was skeptical/worried at first... but the improvements we saw changed everything.

Also, you're right. Once you read a bit and you have a good guide, like the one that Sibe just linked, it's super easy! You also have to remember they're approximate... you don't have to make it exactly 80-10-10 but it's a good place to start. Some dogs need more bone, etc. so a lot of people just kind of eyeball it haha.


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## Sibe

Just boney chicken for the first week, and maybe 2 weeks if the dog is taking longer to adjust. I like giving chicken leg quarters and split chicken breasts (breast with ribs attached) to start.

Then, yep! I feed a bone-in meal like a chicken leg quarter, lamb ribs, turkey neck, etc about 2-4x a week depending on how boney it is. The other days are boneless (I feed once a day, which is fine for adult dogs, puppies should be fed more often). They get liver a couple times a week, and other organ a couple times a week. The way that works for me is that I package up meals into tupperware, or ziplocks for awkard shaped things. Mine need around 13oz a day so I'll put say 10oz of boneless pork shoulder roast and 3-4oz of organ. A chicken leg quarter with a few oz of sweetbread. A turkey neck with a couple oz of brain and then maybe I'll add an egg to that too. Tupperware gets stacked up in the freezer. I do big shopping trips/pickups and butcher & package for a couple hours but then I'm set for the next 2 or 3 weeks. A also do stuff for the cats and that add a lot of the time since I chop stuff up into lil bits for them.

For example, this is moose or elk roast with pork belly (belly is fed as meat, it's really fatty and I wanted to add fat to the lean game meat). I make stacks of the same type of meal and pop it in the freezer. I have stacks of several different things, most have organ in them.









Kitty buffet, gets layered in tupperware so there's some of everything in each tupperware.


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## Sibe

taquitos said:


> My boyfriend was a bit skeptical at first too... heck, even I was skeptical/worried at first... but the improvements we saw changed everything.


 I'm pretty sure most people think they are going to kill their dog at first. After a few meals you really relax about it, and after a few weeks you're really liking it, and after a few months you can't imagine why you never did this before and can't imagine ever giving kibble again unless you absolutely had to.


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## taquitos

Sibe said:


> I'm pretty sure most people think they are going to kill their dog at first. After a few meals you really relax about it, and after a few weeks you're really liking it, and after a few months you can't imagine why you never did this before and can't imagine ever giving kibble again unless you absolutely had to.


Haha exactly. I was terrified when I first had to make it on my own!! I'm so much more comfortable/confident with it now


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## littlesoprano

I figure with Cosmo, a small amount of meat will probably go a long way. Eventually I want to convince his mother to get Koko on raw. That dog has struggled with weight for a while from what I've heard (as of this month I've only been here for a year so I'm not sure of what happened previous), and I believe getting her on raw could help. She is INSANELY active, with no thyroid problems, but just has problems with weight. And she is on Beneful (poor gal).

I think I may propose that two month idea. I'll probably end up taking a before and after picture of Cosmo to show him the difference, but I do appreciate the fact that if the raw food doesn't go over well at the vet, he's definitely up for putting him on much better dry food! (Which is better then Purina!!). I like the idea of the Tupperware containers, and I have a feeling since Cosmo is so small what I might end up doing is packaging as a week's worth of food per container. And then feed 6 ounces out of that container (of various items) per day, that way I can change it up and also make SURE I am giving him everything I need.


What is better to start off with? The Chicken necks? or the quarters/backs? He will end up getting about 6 ounces of food a day, but as a puppy I'll probably be feeding him about 3-4 ounces of food per meal.


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## littlesoprano

taquitos said:


> Haha exactly. I was terrified when I first had to make it on my own!! I'm so much more comfortable/confident with it now


I don't feel too worried at the moment. I was more concerned when looking at BARF-style diets as people were talking about all these phosphorous/calcium levels and everything going wrong, but I found that the PMR type diets, seem to make it all a hell of a lot easier lol!


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## Kathyy

A week of meat is going to get sort of stinky as it will be wet in the bin. Make the bins more like 3 day sized. The ones I have are quart sized and hold 2 pounds if packed tight, smaller might be fine for you. 

I would plan to balance daily for a couple months. You don't know what Cosmo's gut is going to be happy with. Max is a struggle to feed bone every other day and Ginger is fine with bone every 4 days and was able to do boneless every other day after a month on raw! Some dogs take months to get off plain chicken and even need to stay on super bony backs for weeks.


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## taquitos

Both backs and necks have a high content of bone, so either one would be fine. At Cosmo's size, probably going with the back will be better since chicken necks tend to be pretty small.

My dog is 7.5 lbs so I use 3 day tupperwares. Like Kathyy has pointed out, a week's worth is going to get smelly by the end of the week. I use tupperwares that are larger than needed because sometimes I have complicated chews/pieces in there. Another good idea is just using shopping bags. I know a lot of people with larger dogs do it. I also use ziplocs if I don't have tupperwares handy 

Oh yeah, BARF is SO complicated!! Very easy to mess up. I've been doing PMR for almost a year now with great results  I also find that all of my pets LOVE their food (even the ones that used to be picky), and I think they find it more mentally stimulating (since they have to use their paws and gnaw, etc.).


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## tltappan

Wow - so much good info! I got the urge to feed Dukey raw shortly after we adopted him last January (wow - almost a year now!). He is one happy & healthy puppy! As for vets - yeah, you can tell their training by their response. The first vet he saw at the center said "fine, but be sure to supplement with dog food to get the other nutrients" (I ignored him, as I'd researched & knew better). For Dukey's check-up a few months ago, we saw a different vet - she was like "he's healthy & looks great & happy - keep doing what is working!" Needless to say, I will prefer to see her in the future. After reading the posts & link sites here, I think I need to add some organ meats, though - liver or kidneys. Otherwise, he's happy with his chicken back & gizzards for breakfast, & then a few pieces of beef heart & a beef neck bone to chew on for dinner!

Does anyone here give other treats during the day - for training or just 'cuz? I like to use the Milo's chicken meatballs & beef grillers. Thoughts?

As for websites - while I can't give anything new, I love this site because his recipes are funny (read a few...you'll get the pattern & then smile!), and his terms & quotes had me in hysterics!

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

Oh - and my method is to buy about 2 weeks of food (in Florida, Publix carries those odd pieces; where I live there aren't any butchers!), and I put it into ziploc baggies and freeze. I always have 2 days in the fridge: today & tomorrow. Today, at dinner, I take out the new bag for 2 days from now so it's thawed by the day I need to use it - does that make sense? Then I never have much raw meat thawing in the fridge. I also store the bags/bones/anything raw & bloody that isn't consumed in the baggies, in another bag & in a container in the fridge until garbage night - saves the garbage from becoming stinky. I live in the suburbs, so I don't have the same options as country folks (of whom I'm just a bit jealous!).


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## Sibe

Yes, you really need to add organ. Liver should by around 5% of the diet as it's packed with vitamins and nutrients. Other organ is crucial too. Kidney, brain, spleen, pancreas..


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## Sibe

I would never give Milo's Kitchen anything, they source from China and their chicken jerky was in part responsible for the HUNDREDS of dogs that died, let alone how many got sick. Currently I get Zuke's for storebought treats, and I also do homemade liver treats. I boil the liver until it's cooked, then cool/strain, and cut into little pieces, then bake at 250* for about an hour so they are a little crunchy.

I also bulk buy, a couple times a month or so


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## tltappan

Oh wow - thanks! Didn't know that about Milos! I've never heard of Zukes - will have to look for it. I'll also have to try your recipe - sounds yummy (if you're a dog...)!


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## tltappan

I know I can get liver & kidneys, don't think I'll be able to find the others. Thanks!


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## Sibe

Here's some of the consumer complaints.. some, 1/1/07 - 7/2/2012 is 97 pages long. Covers nothing from the end of 2012 or all in 2013.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/AboutF...cy/ORA/ORAElectronicReadingRoom/UCM314415.pdf


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## Kathyy

If you are offering bony meat twice a day he could be getting a lot more bone than he needs. Too much bone means too much phosphorus and calcium and more is not better. My 33 pound Max adores chicken backs but a whole back is enough bone for half a week all on its own.

I usually only offer up kidney and liver too. If you happen upon an ethnic market and that market happens to have pig or lamb heads then you could offer brain and eye if you are up to it. Heads aren't easy to feed but are one of Max's absolute favorite raw meals, a super food puzzle.

Currently the dogs are getting home dried hot dog bits and string cheese as treats. If the meat in the bin didn't come out even I slice thin and cook at 300*F until it is dry. And I pass out dinner bit by bit some days as well. Ginger is a terrible catch but she manages to catch a few bits of her dinner this afternoon!


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## tltappan

Didn't know that - he doesn't normally consume the beef neck bone, just the meat off of it. He does naw on it a bit, but I think more for the sake of feeling good than getting bone. I appreciate the backs because they are the most economical pieces I can get - anything without bone is out of my budget (for dog & people!). Are there any signs I'd see if he was getting too much bone? I didn't realize that little back would be too much!

As for cheese - I've heard for years about dogs being lactose intolerant, yet I see cheese often on posts. Do you have more info?

As for ethnic markets - I've looked around, and there aren't any where we are. Pitiful, I know! I wish I could find a butcher or some place that I could get decent scraps from. There aren't hunting grounds around either, to get leftovers from them.


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## Shell

I can't believe that the Vero Beach-Palm Bay area and nearby doesn't have any Latino markets. Also, the smaller grocery chains like Save-A-Lot that are in Hispanic or Asian neighborhoods tend to stock a wide variety of meats. 

At my local grocery store (not an ethnic market although there are plenty of those), I can get rabbit, chicken feet, beef kidney, beef liver, pork feet, cow feet, and a good selection of more "normal" cuts of chicken, beef and pork. 

I haven't had a dog have issues with a small amount of cheese but I'm sure some dogs do have problems with it or that too much could cause digestive upset. I only use maybe half a slice of cheese as a high value training treat, not as part of their food.

For cheap animal parts without bone-- chicken gizzards and hearts, beef hearts (all muscle meat), or buy a whole turkey or such on sale and de-bone it.


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## tltappan

I'm further south - St Lucie county; but we do have a Save-A-Lot that I pass on the way to work. Never been there - I will have to stop & look - thanks for the tip! There are a couple of markets in Ft Pierce, but they didn't have much. I may look again this weekend - there is a more local grocery store. I've never stopped there mostly because I'm not sure of the neighborhood!

Cheese - I see - that's what I've done with Dukey - a bit of cheese now & again as a treat/reward

The non-bone parts - I do give him gizzards & hearts - guess I should increase those & decrease the bones then! Thought it was better the other way around. I'm not great at de-boning! Not squeamish, just not talented.

I REALLY appreciate your great input here.


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## Shell

The best supermarkets are the ones you'd never think to shop at. That can be true both for meat for the dogs and for neat foodie finds for yourself. 

I went searching at a Vietnamese market for random cuts of meat and also found some frozen fish with chili and lime rub, almond cookies and some nice sweet bean buns. I split the chicken hearts I got there for a $1 per pound between the dogs and me. I sauteed mine with a soy-ginger sauce and sliced them thinly. Very tasty. 

I'm not a super experienced raw feeder, but the 80-10-10 raw model is working as it should be. 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 10% organ (liver, kidney, pancreas). Some days more bone, some days less. Evens out over a week. The dogs love beef liver and kidney, way more than chicken liver.


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## tltappan

Ah - good to know, because Dukey didn't like chilcken livers, so I gave up on that area totally! I'll try the beef. I got pork once, he wasn't impressed, & since we don't eat pork I didn't push it!

As for what you're eating as well...you are braver than I! I'm not too varied in my tastes.


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## Shell

tltappan said:


> Ah - good to know, because Dukey didn't like chilcken livers, so I gave up on that area totally! I'll try the beef. I got pork once, he wasn't impressed, & since we don't eat pork I didn't push it!
> 
> As for what you're eating as well...you are braver than I! I'm not too varied in my tastes.


My HOUND dog (as in, eater of all that might even possibly be food) refuses chicken liver. Beef is a totally hit though. 

Look at Urbanspoon and Yelp for markets in your area. 

It might be worth it also to call a butcher in a major city (even a hour's drive away) if you can get a large portion of random meat cuts for a good price on a once a month trip there. Heart, tripe, the "chewy bits" like beef trachea and gullet and such can be cheap from an old school butchers shop. 

Ask everyone you know for their freezer burned meat. Freezer burn is a texture thing, not a safety thing. As long as the meat has been frozen continuously, it is safe to eat (even for humans when cooked of course) but it loses moisture and the texture changes which is why people prefer not to eat it but dogs don't care at all.


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## tltappan

Dogs don't care - I'd say that about sums up 98% of dogs attitude for food - LOL!!!! 

I'll check out those sites...if I had a freezer it would be SO worth a trip to fill it! Hmm...tax return season approaching...

Okay, I checked out Urban Spoon - they list restaurants? Yelp looks like it might have some info - I'll make calls & see what they have. But I don't know that I can ever give him eyeballs...!


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## dagwall

I only feed partial raw, kibble in AM/raw in PM, and have been feeding raw since September. I give chicken quarters, chicken feet, and turkey necks as the boney meals which I only feed 2-3 times a week. Jubel doesn't really need more bone. I don't know actual percentages of bone in his diet just adjust as needed based on his poop and make sure one of his boney meals is between his organ meal days.

He gets his weekly serving of liver one day a week and a equal portion of another organ (kidney, pancreas, brain) another day of the week. Boneless meats the rest of the week: pork shoulder, ground beef, ground green tripe, beef lung, salmon (fed once a week), beef heart, chicken heart, chicken gizzard, and I splurged on ground rabbit this order.

As for dairy I give occasional cheese bits with no issues but when I started adding a spoon on yogurt to his meals it upset his stomach. No more yogurt stomach upset went away. So yeah my dog doesn't do dairy well.


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## Shell

tltappan said:


> Okay, I checked out Urban Spoon - they list restaurants? Yelp looks like it might have some info - I'll make calls & see what they have. But I don't know that I can ever give him eyeballs...!


yeah, Urbanspoon is mostly restaurants but some restaurants are associated with meat markets (and not _that_ kind of meat market) or small grocery stores. Like my favorite taqueria is part of a grocery store and carniceria. 

Eyeballs are ick. Although, fish eyeballs taste like caviar and have a similar texture so those are kinda yum.


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## d_ray

Forgive me if this has already been asked, but I didnt see it anywhere. Do you generally feed the raw food outside? I'm stocking my freezer with chicken backs and legs and am going to start raw, but am wondering how you control not contaminating the house with Samonella? What are people's techniques? I was thinking of using a mat of some sort and then sanitizing it after? I would feed outside in the summer, but right now, our yard is covered in snow.


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## dagwall

I just put a towel down under the bowl so if anything drops it hits the towel. Towel gets washed as needed. He stays over the towel now but when we first started I actually leashed him up before hand so he couldn't go anywhere with the food. He soon got comfortable with the idea of staying over the towel as I'd nudge him back anytime he started to wander away. Really didn't take long for him to understand and accept that it where he needed to stay.


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## Kathyy

Inside in a gated hard floored area and I mop up with vinegar and water. Gave up on the towel, especially with nice big meals that take a long time to finish.

Outside the sun is going to sterilize the ground.


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## Shell

I have a boot tray from Tractor Supply that is like a really large place-mat with a lip around it (only $5 and double the side of those dog feeding mats in pet stores) and I wipe it with vinegar after meals.

Or if its something they want to gnaw on for a long time and the weather is too bad to eat outside, I just keep the dog on the tile floor and wipe the floor or use a steam mop.


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## Sibe

I feed on a tarp. Cheap, easy to clean, easy to store. I get a big size tarp and cut it into 4 pieces. I replace it every ~6 months or as needed.


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## d_ray

Thanks for all of the suggestions! I will probably have to leash her to begin with as she has a tendency to take high value items into her dog bed. I may try the tarp on the kitchen floor and gate her in there while she eats. How long does it generally take a medium (60 pound) dog to eat a chicken back? Just a rough estimate? She goes through things very quickly. Are we talking minutes or hours?


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## dagwall

First few raw meaty bones will got slower than most once she gets used to it. I'd estimate a matter of minutes for sure.


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## Sibe

Agree, usually they're slow the first few meals as they're figuring it out. Dogs used to raw would eat a chicken back in about 30 seconds I'd guess. New dog, several minutes.


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## Canyx

I just started a thread but am realizing I maybe should have just asked raw-specific questions here...

1. If I am getting a lot of tendon in my dog's diet, can I possibly take him off the supplements (glucosamine, Vit E, fish oil) that I give him as a preventative against joint issues? He shows no signs of slowing even with a pretty active lifestyle, but he IS 8+ years... In the same vein, any sources out there that tell you if feeding a lot of natural sources of collagen might be the same, or better, than feeding joint supplements?

2. A lot of the scraps that I'm getting are discards... So not pure meat, but meat ends with tendons on them, dried meat, fat caps, etc. A lot of the prey model raw articles online agree that 80% of the diet should be meat+fats+connective tissue but any word on how much actual meat should be within that 80% ratio? Here is a picture of a typical scrap pile I'm left with:


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## Sibe

That is a *lot* of fat and connective tissue. You'd need to supplement with meaty meat. So you're basic breakdown is 80-10-10 being 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ. I've seen it broken further into 70% meat, 10% fat, 10% edible bone, 5% liver, 5% other organ.

So for taking him off joint supps, can't speak on that. No idea.


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## Canyx

Okeedokes, I might just supplement kibble with the occasional handful of discards then.


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## Sibe

I do PMR, but I actually bought a small bag of kibble last month (Merrick Grain Free) to use for dispensers and puzzles and since they never get kibble it's a high value treat now that I use for Denali's agility training and such.


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## Canyx

Another question... Is the occasional frozen meal okay? Forgot to have something thawed for this morning so I gave him a ~1.5lb frozen chunk of meat scraps that took a good while for him to gnaw down. I've heard that it messes with some dogs' stomachs and others are fine...


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## taquitos

Canyx said:


> Another question... Is the occasional frozen meal okay? Forgot to have something thawed for this morning so I gave him a ~1.5lb frozen chunk of meat scraps that took a good while for him to gnaw down. I've heard that it messes with some dogs' stomachs and others are fine...


I don't find it messes up their tummies, but I am a little leery of feeding raw rock hard frozen just because some dogs bite too hard on the frozen piece.

I know people do it though. I personally just would not do it with anything with bone


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## Flaming

I personally know 2 dogs that refuse to eat unless it is frozen and a third that eats thawed too fast and gets sick so has to eat frozen.


And well I'm lazy and Manna's not picky between frozen and thawed


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## Canyx

Thanks for the advice everyone!
We pretty much jumped into raw and I now have no issues with quantity and proportions. I'm well stocked on organs for weeks out. Raw is everything it 'promises' to be... Soro LOVES it, his poops are smaller and more infrequent. He is becoming less picky about different ages, cuts, and textures. And I'm able to procure a wide variety. His energy and health seem to be same or better.

My only issue as of now is liver causes him to have the runs. And I mean full on squits. If I feed bone on organ days, it makes it better. But if I am not prepared for that, I can pretty much expect liquid on the other end. It fixes up the next day especially going back to more meat and less organ. I calculate and I try my best to intersperse the organ throughout the week, not feeding him organ meals yet. And I do believe liver is mostly the culprit (he also gets lungs, testicles, etc). And I guess I am just hoping that he gets used to it eventually. Anyone have a projection of how long it might take a dog to get there? I know the effects of diets are not immediate and every dog is different.


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## Kathyy

I'd make up a lot of daily liver doses and toss him one daily rather than expect him to ever be able to handle all liver meals. He isn't young, perhaps his GIT will never be up to such a meal. Max never did go beyond bone every other day for instance and he started raw at the age of eight years where 5 year old Ginger is fine on bone twice a week along with her organs.


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## Canyx

Thanks Kathyy, he currently gets roughly 3 meals a week with liver but I will try to break it down further.


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## kadylady

Zoey does better with small amounts of organ more frequently vs larger amounts less often. And always with at least a little bit of bone. Luke can handle more. I usually portion it out and freeze in those small amounts so I can just toss in a chunk or 2 of whatever when I need to.


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## kadylady

I started the new puppy on raw. She's 8 weeks old. Anything I should know that's different about feeding a young puppy raw vs my adult dogs? I'm feeding her at about 10% of her current weight right now as I'm not quite sure what her expected adult weight is. Probably in the ballpark of 40# give or take.


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## Sibe

kadylady said:


> I started the new puppy on raw. She's 8 weeks old. Anything I should know that's different about feeding a young puppy raw vs my adult dogs? I'm feeding her at about 10% of her current weight right now as I'm not quite sure what her expected adult weight is. Probably in the ballpark of 40# give or take.


As with dry food feed multiple times a day. Be feeding at least 4x a day, approximately equal sized meals (I'd chop it into swallowable chunks do hand feeding personally as I always hand feed puppies). Around 4 months go to 3x a day. Around 6 months go to 2x a day. 10% of current weight per day is fine, and adjust as needed if she's getting too chunky or skinny.


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## trainingjunkie

The Whole Dog Journal sells really great e-books on this topic. They are concise and well-researched. And they are 20% off today. Might be worth a peek. http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/su...t=pmail&s=p_blackfriday112614&t=T_TL#magazine


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## NicoleIsStoked

So it seems the ratio to aim for is 80% muscle meat: 10% bones: 5% liver: 5% other organs. 
For any raw feeders that include fruit/veg in their dogs diet, what ratio do you use to factor that in?


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## Kathyy

Usually they are extras and if I used any would add to regulate stool consistency as much as for nutrient content, maybe 10-20% at the most. Ginger adores fruits and veggies and regularly gets trimmings that probably do add up to 10% over a week's time.


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## NicoleIsStoked

So let's say I feed 5-10% veg would I subtract that from the muscle meat portion. Only feed 70-75% meat?


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## Kathyy

No you would add it to the diet. Max got a convenient 10 ounces a day. 8 ounces meaty stuff, 1 ounce assorted organs and 1 ounce of bone. If he ate veggies I would add 1-2 ounces a day so he would now be getting 12 ounces of food a day. If he got 'fluffy' on that amount I would cut back on the total diet, not just the meat.


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## NicoleIsStoked

Got it. Thanks.


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## jzorro

We all know that there are a lot of crappy dog food on the market, but be aware that raw food diets also have risks. This risks can be minimized or avoid we you follow some basic guidelines. For those starting with raw diet I recommend you read this useful article: Top 5 FAQ’s About Raw Dog Food.


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## LorraineJim

Hi, I will try to make this as short as possible. Ok, I have a newly adopted dog Bailey. She is a 1 1/2 yr. old border collie/Pit bull mix and she weighs 50lbs. I HATE all the stuff I hear about commercial dog food. I am just recently into researching everything. I had a doberman who died at the age of 11 from an undiagnosed problem and I have a feeling it was from either commercial dog food crap, vaccines, topical flea stuff or all of the above. I am fully committed to doing better by my new dog. I just recently switched to Nature’s Variety Instinct kibble (I was using Purina One) which I feed her for breakfast. For dinner, I switched her to Deli Fresh by Freshpet. I really, really want to switch her to a raw diet, but I have no clue where/how to start, what foods to feed or not to feed, if I can afford it, etc. I’m afraid once I start I won’t know what to feed and and how much and if I am giving her the right variety of stuff. I’ve looked up raw “menus” online, but it sounds like there is so many different things that I would have to feed Bailey, that I might end up going broke. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated…


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## Galathiel

You might try going to the raw dog ranch (google it) website. It has a lot of good info on getting started.


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## Kathyy

Read here. http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/raw-feeding/

Good luck, until you are sure just supplement with a nice big meaty bone once a week. My 35-45 pound dogs got a single beef rib for instance.

Variety is important but you do not have to have 12 proteins in the freezer at all times! So long as you can feed chicken, pork and beef constantly and get beef liver and some other organ you are set.

It is just food, not the fountain of youth. My first dog died at 17 years after being sick and fed home cooked food her last 3.5 years, first raw fed dog died at 14 after being on raw for 5.5 years and cooked for his last 6-7 months. Raw did have a number of amazing improvements for him and I don't want to feed commercial foods again.


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## marioana

I have a 5.5 year old, 10 lb yorkie, super stubborn and picky. He was always grain free fed, now he eats nature’s variety instinct, with some stella and chewy sprinkled on top. This used to be enough , but lately he doesn’t eat his kibble unless I add some cheese on top and even then sometimes he only eats the cheese. He is generally healthy, he could use to lose a lb or so, but his main problem is that if he doesn’t eat every 12 hours he throws up or gets hypoglycemic. Until he was 4 years old his teeth were perfect, he chewed on his bully sticks all the time and then he stopped and we had 2 cleanings since then and he lost 3 teeth. I try to brush his teeth every night (using toothpaste on a gauze) but he hates it.
He loves raw meat, he always begs for some when I prepare our food, and from time to time I give him some ground beef as a meal. I tried mypetcarnivore a while back, but he wouldn’t touch it, I suspect because of the added organ meat. I tried giving him raw liver, nope, he wouldn’t have it, although if I fry it a bit it’s the best thing in the world.
So I have a super picky dog that I suspect would love to go raw, but how do I add the necessary 10% organ meat and bone to the raw meat?


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## Kathyy

Go ahead and cook it! My issue is kidney is stinky enough on its own, do not want to smell it cooking.

Ginger took her sweet time with organ. I start organ by cutting a pound into daily amounts. In her case that was 1/4 ounce. Freeze those tiny bits on a cookie sheet and pop into a plastic bag for storage. To start I took out a single bit and shaved it into toothpicks. She got one in her dish. First day she was horrified that that nasty thing was there and did her best to not even touch it. Other dog ate it. Next day she sniffed it, other dog ate it. 3rd day she touched it 4th day picked it up and threw it 5th day mouthed it 6th day chewed gingerly and spit it out and rolled in it [knew the game was up when she rolled on it!] and finally swallowed it on about the 7th day. None of the other went to waste as other dog happily ate it but even if I tossed it it would have been about 1 ounce in the garbage. So don't give up. Just leave it with the dog and in time maybe he will try it. After she was used to that first organ, pork kidney?, she was quicker to try new organs. I go through the tiny bit a day routine for the first few organs then go right to a full serving after that.

Max was a bigger dog that had regular bile vomiting on kibble. I controlled it with a bed time snack and that usually worked out well. On raw he completely stopped. Maybe this will help your little guy. Do feed him twice a day anyway.

Ginger came here fat with the worst looking teeth ever. On raw she managed to clean up all but one molar so she went under for a cleaning. It turned out to be rotted and was pulled. Last year she developed a slab fracture on another carnassial that turned into an abscess and it was removed as well. Raw will not help with canines much, they will stay yellow at the gum line unless you are able to offer up raw meaty bones where the dog bites down to the bone and rips off the meat. Usually that happens if you are able to offer a huge bony chunk like a whole leg of lamb.

It took her a good year to go from an obese 19.5 pounds down to a slim 13.5. What seems to help the most is getting a big meal that's hard to eat. Today the dogs happily chewed on elk femurs for hours. Lots of work for not much food, seems to do the trick.


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## marioana

That's a great idea, I will try with liver first, then kidney, and hopefully everything else will go smoothly. I also plan on getting some small rib bones and chicken wings and let him chew on them. I will use a towel and hopefully I can teach him to eat on it, but I guess I have to wash his paws after each meal, right? We have carpet and that doesn't go very well with dirty paws...


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## Kathyy

You can try. I gave up but I have a pretty good set up here. If you have a crate then take the pad out to feed him. I use an exercise pen on tile in the house or just give the dogs the bone outside. If I had to I'd buy/ find something fairly stiff because towels just get all scrunched up as the dog works on the meal and would be fairly disgusting to reuse. 14 towels a week is a lot of extra laundry! A piece of plastic carpet runner?

My dogs only get dirty paws when they have a big bone that takes a long time to chew. Chicken ribs get chomped, flipped in the mouth, chomped some more then swallowed once pulverized enough to go down the throat.


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## laurelsmom

Pardon me, but I have limited access to butchers and need to get my bigger dog a beef RMB. What is the proper term for the right size of beef rib for a twelve pound nine month old Chihuahua/Terrier? She has no idea how little she is and chicken necks go too fast.

Yes, this is a serious question because I don't eat meat, cook it for other humans,and might as well be a child when it comes to "everybody (that isn't me)knows" methods of safely handling and purchasing meat and dairy products. My dogs get prepared raw foods (Stella & Chewy's or Instinct) for their main diet, but I need to stretch it out a bit for financial reasons and would rather use my brain and the butcher than just buy cheap kibble. They aren't THAT big and don't eat particularly much for dogs.

I am also interested in learning more about non-meat sources of protein in light of the current concerns linking DCM to grain-free dog food. My dogs do get little bites of legumes and other "people foods" like grains, vegetables, fruit, etc. because dogs are such foodies that it's a fun novelty to share food with my best buddies after many years of being a die-hard cat person.

It would have been nice if I could have safely fed them a low-meat or no-meat diet, but I just want "healthy" right now.


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## Kathyy

My 13 pound adult dogs get the ribs from beef rib roast. I'll cut the meat from between the ribs to feed for another meal as otherwise it's still too much meat for them. They get the whole rib and I toss the leftover bone once the soft stuff is stripped and they aren't interested in chewing it any longer. Usually half the weight goes into the trash. I do not care to feed short ribs as both ends are cut and sharp. Bones with natural joints are more fun and safer.

If you want the dog to eat all the bone then look at pork and lamb bone instead. My little dogs easily eat nearly all the pork and lamb bone offered from the large arm bones in shoulder roasts to the skinnier ribs. 

It's far more bone than they need so I feed boneless meals before and after and feed organ with the bone.


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## laurelsmom

Kathyy, thank you so much. I'm mostly sticking to poultry because of the size of my dogs and my own lack of experience in the butcher's section but that isn't healthy for them in the long run. I found beef necks, which Chocolate loved, but then I read that she could break a tooth from that and went back to the overpriced beef bones at the pet store.

I'm going to check the sale flyers for rib and shoulder roasts now that I'm getting more adventurous. They get mostly prepared raw right now, but the expense is hard to justify when I've got a perfectly good brain, a butcher's section at the grocery store, and local farmers with humanely raised grass fed beef for sale.

I am also interested in whole prey for the Chihuahua mixes, since that has been such an easy route to go with the new kitten. Of course she took to feeder mice very easily since she came from a feral colony. Chocolate spent three happy days eating a chicken back so I'm thinking quail or else a very small chicken. If anything, I give them too much bone, but I don't have a very good stash of organ meat in my freezer just yet so whole prey would be an easy way to avoid imbalances.

I have a lot to learn but my dogs are worth it.

Another question: the turkey roast in my freezer contains up to 7% of a solution of water, salt, and sodium phosphate. Is that safe to feed my animals? It doesn't say "boneless" on the package so I'm assuming that it's just muscle meat.


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## Kathyy

Check the nutrition box. If the sodium content is 100 mg per serving then it's usually okay. If over sometimes it upsets the dog's stomach. I've fed such stuff, just make it part of the meal and pretend that rinsing takes off some of the solution.

There's no problem feeding chicken for bone for a dog's life. It's boring and doesn't do much for dental health is all.

Any beef bone can break teeth, the leg bones are the very worst. Avoid them if you are concerned. With the pork, lamb and beef you want the dog to get a really big one [relative to the dog's size] and pull/chew off the soft stuff before starting to gnaw on the soft edges of the bone. With a beef neck I'd expect to throw away the large disc in the middle and the dog would have a blast working the spines. If I gave my dogs cut beef steak bone I'd expect them to try to crunch it like chicken bone and that would be a tooth breaking hazard more than the large beef necks because they can get the whole thing into the mouth. So get the neck before the counter guy whacks it into pot sized bits and toss steak and chop bones. The 2x2" cubes they want to give you are more than tooth hazards, they are swallowing hazards as well.


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## laurelsmom

I've got a regular, local source for kidneys now and a food scale on the way.  

The muscle meat in my freezer may not be the greatest but it will feed my <10 lb dogs for a long time now and give my checkbook a chance to recover. I have a whole chicken that I broke up yesterday and the turkey roast, which I assume is boneless.

Since Laurel will be a full year tomorrow and Chocolate next month, I don't think I need to get any bonemeal powder for them. I have turkey necks, which I've been giving them once a week. When it's chicken necks or feet, they get two or more a week.

Does that sound about right? I will probably alternate prepared for one day and homemade for the next at first. They also like grains, so I have been giving them a spoonful or an ice cube sized quantity of rice cooked as recommended by Pat McKay in her book Reigning Cats and Dogs stirred into the prepared raw rather than kibble, which is mostly grains anyway but not the organic wholegrains I buy for myself.


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## Kathyy

Feeding bone once a week not a good idea. The dogs will have concrete stool from too much bone after eating it, not be able to get all the calcium they need because they had to excrete the excess and are likely to have soft stool for half the week. It's not fun but it is possible to cut necks up. I love giving turkey necks but stick to chicken necks just because I don't have to cut them.

2 chicken necks is a lot less bone than 1 turkey neck. 10 ounces of turkey neck has 4.5 ounces of bone where 10 ounces of skinned chicken neck have about 7. The turkey necks I see are more like a pound so would have about 7 ounces of bone while the scrawny skinned chicken necks that weigh a bit more than an ounce likely have .7 ounces of bone. Remember the diet is 10% bone. If your dogs eat 70 ounces a day then a turkey neck daily would be perfect. My dogs don't even get 70 ounces weekly!


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## Tater33

Kathyy said:


> Feeding bone once a week not a good idea. The dogs will have concrete stool from too much bone after eating it, not be able to get all the calcium they need because they had to excrete the excess and are likely to have soft stool for half the week. It's not fun but it is possible to cut necks up. I love giving turkey necks but stick to chicken necks just because I don't have to cut them.
> 
> 2 chicken necks is a lot less bone than 1 turkey neck. 10 ounces of turkey neck has 4.5 ounces of bone where 10 ounces of skinned chicken neck have about 7. The turkey necks I see are more like a pound so would have about 7 ounces of bone while the scrawny skinned chicken necks that weigh a bit more than an ounce likely have .7 ounces of bone. Remember the diet is 10% bone. If your dogs eat 70 ounces a day then a turkey neck daily would be perfect. My dogs don't even get 70 ounces weekly!


Sorry to ask a noob question, but I've always heard chicken bones are bad for dogs (choking). So the neck bones are OK for them? Our dog loves chicken but I haven't ever given her bones.


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## sydneynicole

Tater33 said:


> Sorry to ask a noob question, but I've always heard chicken bones are bad for dogs (choking). So the neck bones are OK for them? Our dog loves chicken but I haven't ever given her bones.


Chicken bones are only bad for dogs if they are cooked. Raw chicken bones are suitable for most dogs. Large dogs potentially could try to swallow a chicken neck or wing whole, which could pose a choking hazard. I have two giant dogs who eat chicken necks because they are good and safe chewers. But raw chicken bones in general are safe.


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## Tater33

sydneynicole said:


> Chicken bones are only bad for dogs if they are cooked. Raw chicken bones are suitable for most dogs. Large dogs potentially could try to swallow a chicken neck or wing whole, which could pose a choking hazard. I have two giant dogs who eat chicken necks because they are good and safe chewers. But raw chicken bones in general are safe.


Thank you, I appreciate it.


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## wel

Dogs aren’t omnivores; they can get their nutrition from not only meat but, also grains, fruits, and veggies, which are excellent sources of fiber, vitamins and essential minerals for your dog’s good health.


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## RonE

wel said:


> Dogs aren’t omnivores; they can get their nutrition from not only meat but, also grains, fruits, and veggies, which are excellent sources of fiber, vitamins and essential minerals for your dog’s good health.


That kinda sounds like the very definition of an omnivore.


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