# Chi-Poo or Chorkie, Need Help



## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

I have within the last month been searching to find the perfect little dog, that will do very well in an apartment,I am moving from TN to FL in 3 months to finish out my degree as a vet tech. My parents have a bich-poo for 7 years which tuned me into all the designer hybrids, and being a groomer at Petco for 4 years, I have seen many,many cute lifelong babies. Chihuahua's have always had my heart as well as toy poodles. After going though many breeders I've narrowed it down to 2 pups. 1 being an adorable black/white chi-poo They say the father is 7 inches tall and weighs 6 1/2 lbs, Mother 5" and 5 lbs. The father is a toy and the mother a chi-poo herself. Now I have never been a huge fan of yorkies as I have heard they are snappy little ankle biters obsessed with barking at every leaf that blows across the driveway. I have never had one myself. But working at the salon they and westies are the dogs we've had to as a last resort muzzle them to complete the groom with all our fingers.. But it could be the parents who raised them or a bad experience that led them to act so. So I'm here to learn more about how they really are. Which brings me to the 2nd puppy. An absolute tiny baby Chorkie. Father a 3 1/2 lbs yorkie and mom a 4 lbs chihuahua. There are 2 questions I have that will determine who I choose. Both breeders are fantastic I've spoke with them, Drove up to see the pups, great people all around fantastic, truly pampered babes. I will be living in FL in an apartment, a large one but still its no mansion. Therefore I am going to litter train the pup, as I do have a cat as well. I understand both are a little stubborn but nothing patience and alot of puppy treats and a good carpet spray can't handle. Which in everyone's opinion, will adjust best and quickest to this method, also being that I do have a cat I don't want the dog fighting with her. She herself was raised with 2 labs and a pit and ferret, she's never met an enemy. And also I will have plenty of neighbors so having a dog that barks 24/7 might cause complaint and that would be much unwanted. And last but not least I want a real lover boy,cuddle bug. Oh yes I'm the girl who is going to get him the puppy polo and chenille tote to carry him everywhere lol. So in everyone's opinion who could help me out I would love and appreciate so much to hear what you have to say.
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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

I saw in another post of yours about what to look for or ask in a breeder. Well neither a Chi-Poo or a Chorkie would ever be bred by a reputable or responsible breeder. So the trust factor is nothing with someone like that. If you are looking for a mixed breed dog, your best bet is to rescue from a shelter or rescue. There the dogs have been checked over and won't be homed unless healthy. You're shooting in the dark purchasing from someone who has no regard for health or breed standards, and breeds mutts. Not that mutts cannot be wonderful dogs and companions, but save one rather than add to the out of control over-population problem.  Ok, I'll get off of my soap box now.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

You should get a purebred toy poodle. They great dogs and come in a lot of different colors. If you like Chi's then just get a purebred one of those. You can get a toy Chi wich is basically the runt of the litter but they're still cute. My friend has one and it's really adorable. Just make sure you socialize it good because her's is a little b*tch about other dogs and strangers and I think that's pretty common for the breed. If you get a mix you don't really know what your going to end up with in the end but atleast with a purebred you have a guideline to what the breeds temperment is like and what it will look like when it gets older. If you really want a poodle mix then I'm sure you could find a great one at a local shelter or even have one shipped to your local shelter from another if need be.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

I appreciate the response but it doesn't really answer much, and I find it ignorant to say someone is irresponsible for breeding a "designer", "mutt". I have many friends and co-workers that do this and I have never seen more well cared for, or loved animals. And I do fully understand the importance of saving a life and that was my first choice, I went to 18 shelters with 100 mile radius of where I lived and called 4+. The chihuahuas I found where few and well on there way into adult-hood some senior the same with poodle, with special care needs. I am interested in a young puppy with sound health. I came across a few smaller dogs that where absolutely adorable, but adopting because they where cute is wrong. They where high strung, hyper active, some with food or pet aggression. I was very disappointed that my search came out empty but face it the perfect pet isn't always out there, and thats how alot of animals come to shelters, alot of mutts as well as pure breds are adopted because they are cute and when they come home a family realizes the breed just isnt working and gives it to the shelter or worse.I choose the breed chi-poo and chorkie because they are a great mix of the qualities that would best suit my lifestyle. Rather they lean toward chihuahua,poodle, and yorkie I am unsure of that is why I am asking how their true nature is. I've heard they are lovers and heard just the opposite it all depends. So I am looking for someone who has had one that can tell me all about the pro's and con's of a yorkie. I do thank you though for your thoughts and opinions.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

And animal hoarders love their pets too, but that still doesn't make it right.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I have a mini poodle that is the biggest lover in the world. They're great dogs and very smart. I didn't find him hard to take care of or train at all and he's my first dog. Maybe look into a toy or mini poodle. Possibly go to a local dog show and look at all of the different breeds and talk to some breeders. It's not that the people breeding designer dogs mean to be careless or irresponsable. I'm sure some love the dogs they breed but they're breeding mixed dogs when they're are already enough mixed dogs in shelters as it is. Besides, with a mix you really don't know what your getting. You can't pinpoint a certain temperment or a certain look but with a purebred your more likely to know what your getting into beforehand.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE go to rescue for your dog!!! You can get similar dogs and won't be giving your hard earned $$$$$$ for a mix!!!!! PLEASE don't support back yard breeders or puppy mills this way. I garauntee NO reputable breeder will breed mixes!!!!!


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

*Chi-Poo or Chorkie, Need Help Attention Yorkie/Chihuahua/Poodle Breeders and Owners*

Again not everyone who breeds them are a puppy mill or backyard breeder. And like I said I have been to a shelter ALOT of shelters and my companion simply isn't there. Atleast from a breeder I know which 2 mixes I am getting, also the parents and their characteristics. From a shelter they are clueless they slap a label on whatever it most resembles many being, way,way off. There are many great responsible breeders rather its a designer or pure, Ive seen just as many dishonest people and mills breeding purebreds so its just ignorant to slap a label on someone to sterio type. And again every shelter within 100 miles and came up short handed and will not adopt a dog simply because he is cute or small, and end up with a pet I can't handle. Thats why most of them get there, why put an animal through that. As to the toy poodle that is a big interest of mine also, I have looked a great deal into 1 also. Are they small enough to litter train without having to pay $1000 for a tea-cup? Looking forward to more opinoins again thanks everybody for posting.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Dear, Tea cups are another ploy BYB and mills use to get rid of substandard, undersized dogs. A toy poodle that is bred to the standard is around 5 lbs. 

Most breeders you can buy a dog from via the internet (accept MC, visa, ect) are PUPPYMILLS. The few reputable breeders that have websites DO NOT have a way of selling via the internet. You have to go TO THEM. You MIGHT fill out a puppy app online and the breeder call you for an interview, but they won't sell the dog to unless you come meet them FACE TO FACE.

BTW, I'm not a breeder, I'm in rescue. However, I WAS raised by a breeder.


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

*Re: Chi-Poo or Chorkie, Need Help Attention Yorkie/Chihuahua/Poodle Breeders and Owne*

By the definitions and standards that responsible breeders hold themselves to, any, all and every breeder purposely breeding mixes is a byb. Responsible breeding has a purpose: improving the bloodlines of a breed to produce pups that adhere more closely to the breed standard, improving performance in the breed's field of "work" (herding, hunting, etc.). Breeders of hybrids have no other purpose for their litters than to produce puppies to be sold as companion/pet animals. Breeders of designer dogs are only providing product for profit. They are not improving the bloodline of a breed for conformation or performance. If there were no market for cockapoos, they'd move on to the next fad "designer breed". The closest any hybrid has come to legitimacy, from my understanding, is the Australian Labradoodle, which apparently doesn't breed true yet. Perhaps if they get some generations further that begin to breed true, then we may witness the birth of a genuine new breed.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

*Re: Chi-Poo or Chorkie, Need Help Attention Yorkie/Chihuahua/Poodle Breeders and Owne*

Actually most of them get there because of ignorant owners. It has little to do with the dog in most cases. 

And I'm sorry, but there aren't "many great responsible breeders"...there are in fact very few. Perhaps you're stereotyping the breeders you know as responsible? Perhaps you're calling the label ignorance because you don't understand where we're coming from? 

Before this thread get's out of hand, I'd recommend you search designer dogs on this forum and read through the threads. I suggest this to help you understand our POV, because on many counts it disagrees with the statements you are making. 

I apologize if this isn't the opinion you were looking for.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

Yes I know tea-cup is a marketing concept, The point I was trying to come across was that the standard about 5 lbs would do well with litter training or if any of yall have tried it and how well did it work.And no not every breeder I know is responsible or reputable, I know alot from grooming, from working at the only major pet store within a 70 mile radius for 4 years, and the only ones I label as responsible are the ones I call friends. I do not associate myself with any kind of person to treat animals in any sort of disrespectful manner and I make 100% sure of the places I visited where the best of the best. 1 simple question I tell a lot of new girls I train in the salon who we hire ( not everyone was raised with proper cleaning abilities) and that question is that, Would You want to live there? This topic is alot like kids these days that call themselves "emo" "poser" thing ( anyone has kids in high school know what I mean) Trust me with all my heart I spent 3 months visiting shelters, leaving my number to what I was looking for came in, the majority of dogs here are large hunting dog mixes from labs to basset. There are local small dog rescues again still I came up empty handed, no puppies, only adults, or if they where young had special needs. I want a young healthy sound baby. They have a pekingese rescue but nope no poodles there either. Because that was my 1st choice, If I wasn't moving into an apartment in FL in 3 months, I'd take home the 1st big goon to look at me with sad puppy eyes, I felt so bad that I couldn't. It would be no good life for a dog like them.And as why I wish to adopt before I move because I want the pup to be adjusted to new family life,house trained,getting use to my cat,getting use to car rides, etc. Because I will be attending class longer hours and work as well, and being that its a rented apartment having a pup with no training what so ever would prove to be a disaster. Do you see where I'm coming from? So as far as breeders do this or do that, there are things that set them within a standard to be trustworthy. To me it honestly doesn't matter what you breed. If you do it for profit or to just see what it'll look like no I loathe people who do that, the same as I dislike those with over breeding,neglect,poor treatment, or health care. Anything along those lines in the tiniest I feel should be jailed. However if you have true love and treat them like your own children and are honest my best wishes to you, and with hybrids alot of them I see absolutely no sense in, but how many of our akc breeds have came today where by the same way. There are certain dogs when breeding compliment each other very well, and upon time can be bred to a 100% standard. Like alot of passed dogs there function for why they where bred is outdated and now most dogs arent working or herding just pets, so I believe if your doing it to better a breed hoping to set a new standard than yes I fully stand by that, Same why pure breeders select certain dams and sires, for this or that trait,color,health,temperament. Those are the people I call responsible and in the huge world of people who have puppies for sale few are actual breeders, but the few who are there are fewer still, but yet that still leaves a good couple hundred in the world so an honest person isnt hard to find if you look hard enough. And that I have done.

Again my orginal question had nothing to with that were talking about. I realize alot of people have there opinions and in no means do I take offense or try to offend any of you guys and I do apologize if I have. I do understand where you are comming from before my parents got there bich-poo I felt the same way. I still feel alot the same for people do it because they think its a recent fashion statement. If I get a call tomorrow from the shelter saying they have a little poodle,chi, pure or mix whichever I will turn down the breeder in a heart beat, because yes I want to save a life. But I dont want to adopt 1 into a life where they wouldnt get enough excerise or get along with my cat, or anger the neighbors, then were both unhappy.But like I said any who does it for the fashion or money deserves jail but if the fully research,test, and have been breeding for a superior animal then yes. And usually those breeders have been breeding that type for a certain standard for many years and dont sell every puppy for a thousand dollars with every single litter. They are kept within the family for well pampered pets until they have a pretty good standard and this takes many years, if they're not doing that, than no they are reputable breeders.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

You know, it really doesn't have anything to do with honesty. Yes there are scam artists out there, but the majority of breeders (and anyone breeding is a breeder) just don't have a clue what they are doing. They don't know about health testing. They don't know how to keep their puppies from inheriting preventable diseases. And if you don't know either, then you are risking that your dog will have problems. My dog was blind at the age of 8 years because her breeder didn't know to test the parents eyesight. My dog went through agonizing pain because of it. Her breeder should have never bred anything because she was doing it in ignorance. And if you buy from a breeder like that, then you are supporting that kind of breeding.

You say you'll be moving to an apartment in 3 months. Do you know if an apartment will be available which approves of dogs in the lease? In 3 months, your puppy will be getting into lots of trouble, and needs to have supervision as well as training. Working and attending class doesn't leave much time for puppy nonsense.

As for crosses, very few of the breeders who are producing designer breeds are actually interested in setting a type in order to come up with a purebred dog. Most of the time they are doing what they call F1 crosses where they take two separate breeds (Yorkie, Poodle) and cross them. There is no standard involved at all. Try this website for more info:
http://www.suite101.com/external_link.cfm?elink=http://www.canismajor.com/dog/poodogs.html

So have you asked your breeder what kind of health testing s/he has done? What did s/he say?


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

Yes I know thats why most of them are breeding pups in ignorance, I myself lost a childhood friend he was a boxer had to be put down at 9 because he had arthritis so bad he couldn't even stand up let alone walk. And its wrong and in my opinion cruel to breed animals without doing so. Thats why i spent ALOT of time looking into this and she has presented all the document ion and health records all the up to the great grandparents and all are well and sound. She has a cockapoo now thats 17, other than being a little slow to run down the driveway its still has plenty as play and tail wagging in her, I wouldn't have a dog any other way. She truly works very very hard, spent many years, very much effort,time,financially as well as her pups are homegrown, not a kennel in the backyard, she added an entire extra story to her home just for her pups. She truly is dedicated and I know its a rare find, I wouldn't purchase a pup in any other conditions, especially if its a designer. When you say everyone who breeds dogs is a breeder, and earlier when I made the comment just because you have puppies for sale doesn't mean your a breeder. To me that kind of dedication and knowledge is what makes a breeder apart from someone who just buys and sells animals for profit and other sorts. I guess I can compare to any business, its what separates the stock clerks from the C.E.O's of the corporation. I guess I view it more as a privilege that comes from hard work and love for the animal rather than you missed rent and felt bored 1 weekend while looking at the 2 dogs tied up in your yard. I realize not everyone feels or acts upon the same standards, and that kind of person is responsible for so many helpless creatures dieing in shelters simply because they can't find a place to call home. To me is very sad and disturbing.


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

Enough already, can someone just answer her question without rehashing the designer dog debate for the millionth time?! Geez! All she's asking for are the opinions of people who have had experience with yorkies, poodles, or chi's. She mentioned that she already checked nearby shelters and was unable to find what she was looking for. Coriona, I've been in the same boat and I can sympathize. When I mentioned that I got my puggle from a caring breeder after doing the shelter search and turning up empty-handed, the people on this board jumped all over me. 

Sorry, I don't know anything about the breeds you mentioned or I would be more than happy to help out. My suggestion would be to ask the same question at another forum where the posters aren't so judgmental (for example, Yahoo has discussion boards for specific dog breeds and I've found that the people there are friendlier). Unfortunately, all you will find here (as you've seen) are people who will give you a bad time about your decision and try to convince you to go to a shelter.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

Thank you for the life raft!!! I originally thought yahoo would have a forum like that and this came up 1st in Google and I said hey thats probably exactly what I'm looking for. Now that I'm out of breathe for explaining just reasons lol, I'll definitely check it out thanks. 

p.s= (not everyone lives under a rock. hesitate before sending out the firing squad next time.)


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> Yes I know thats why most of them are breeding pups in ignorance, I myself lost a childhood friend he was a boxer had to be put down at 9 because he had arthritis so bad he couldn't even stand up let alone walk. And its wrong and in my opinion cruel to breed animals without doing so. Thats why i spent ALOT of time looking into this and she has presented all the document ion and health records all the up to the great grandparents and all are well and sound. She has a cockapoo now thats 17, other than being a little slow to run down the driveway its still has plenty as play and tail wagging in her, I wouldn't have a dog any other way. She truly works very very hard, spent many years, very much effort,time,financially as well as her pups are homegrown, not a kennel in the backyard, she added an entire extra story to her home just for her pups. She truly is dedicated and I know its a rare find, I wouldn't purchase a pup in any other conditions, especially if its a designer. When you say everyone who breeds dogs is a breeder, and earlier when I made the comment just because you have puppies for sale doesn't mean your a breeder. To me that kind of dedication and knowledge is what makes a breeder apart from someone who just buys and sells animals for profit and other sorts. I guess I can compare to any business, its what separates the stock clerks from the C.E.O's of the corporation. I guess I view it more as a privilege that comes from hard work and love for the animal rather than you missed rent and felt bored 1 weekend while looking at the 2 dogs tied up in your yard. I realize not everyone feels or acts upon the same standards, and that kind of person is responsible for so many helpless creatures dieing in shelters simply because they can't find a place to call home. To me is very sad and disturbing.


Can you please tell us what health screening your breeder did on her parent dogs?



DoggieLover said:


> Enough already, can someone just answer her question without rehashing the designer dog debate for the millionth time?! Geez! All she's asking for are the opinions of people who have had experience with yorkies, poodles, or chi's. She mentioned that she already checked nearby shelters and was unable to find what she was looking for. Coriona, I've been in the same boat and I can sympathize. When I mentioned that I got my puggle from a caring breeder after doing the shelter search and turning up empty-handed, the people on this board jumped all over me.
> 
> Sorry, I don't know anything about the breeds you mentioned or I would be more than happy to help out. My suggestion would be to ask the same question at another forum where the posters aren't so judgmental (for example, Yahoo has discussion boards for specific dog breeds and I've found that the people there are friendlier). Unfortunately, all you will find here (as you've seen) are people who will give you a bad time about your decision and try to convince you to go to a shelter.


So you would suggest that she be told about yorkies, poodles, and chis when that's not what she's going to have? What good would it do? It might help her to be told what the mixes of those dogs, like the ones she intends on getting, would be like, but then they are mixes, so everyone is different. 

Personally I don't understand why you think it's so bad to educate someone so that they hopefully won't make the mistakes that so many of us have learned from. Some people are actually happy to learn that they had the wrong idea about what a good breeder is, and can accept education that can lead them to a responsible breeder. Buying or adopting a dog is a lifetime commitment, that shouldn't be taken lightly, or with one's eyes sealed shut.

But then I'm sure I must have misunderstood and you weren't really trying to tell other people how they should post, right?



Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> Thank you for the life raft!!! I originally thought yahoo would have a forum like that and this came up 1st in Google and I said hey thats probably exactly what I'm looking for. Now that I'm out of breathe for explaining just reasons lol, I'll definitely check it out thanks.
> 
> p.s= (not everyone lives under a rock. hesitate before sending out the firing squad next time.)


There's no firing squad. If you saw someone aiming to do something that you thought could lead to disaster, wouldn't you speak up to help them? Responsible breeders do far more than just love their dogs and keep them inside with the family.

If you want to know what the standard is for specific breeds, try www.akc.org which has all the purebreds you've mentioned and describes them by the way they look, how they are built, what their temperament is like, etc. Of course if you get a dog from a breeder that doesn't even know what the standard is for the breed, it's unlikely that their dogs will come anywhere near that. I've seen poodles that had long bodies like dachshunds, along with short stubby legs, and i've seen poodles that looked more like Italian greyhounds with long legs, but curly hair. Irresponsible breeders don't know much about selective breeding, even if they do love their dogs. Love didn't stop my dog from going blind. Only health screening the parents by a veterinary ophthalmologist would have done that.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

sorry, but i agree w/ DoggieLover here......no, you can't tell her what her mix is going to be like...it is a mix and i'm sure she realizes this.....i, too, have looked thru the shelters at dogs claimed to be BC and just b/c it's Bl/wh doesn't mean that it is a Border (or, on the other end of the spectrum, just b/c it's NOT bl/wh doesn't mean it CAN'T be a Border)......and as for the shelters/rescues screening for health problems, that isn't true either.....if it were then they would never be able to afford to keep the places going.....do you know of any of these places that test for HD/CEA/PRA/vWD, screen for epilepsy, etc? .....i sure don't......ask any shelter and most rescues what "health" tests have been done and the most you'll get is the basic shot, heartworm (if you're lucky), internal parasites, and a basic check up......

so, c'mon guys, can't she just get a simple feedback as to the pros and cons of the breeds of which these mutts are?.....that, in itself, will at least give her a general idea of what is being thrown into the mixes......


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Have you checked petfinder? You don't often see small breeds in shelters, but a lot of them get turned over to rescues.

Here's a Chihuahua Yorkie mix. Cute little fella.  http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8467614


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> Irresponsible breeders don't know much about selective breeding, even if they do love their dogs. Love didn't stop my dog from going blind. Only health screening the parents by a veterinary ophthalmologist would have done that.


i agree w/ the whole concept of irresponsible breeders.....throwing 2 dogs together just to get pups is not the way to breed healthy pups......but, wake up and smell the coffee, people.....just b/c the parents check clear of any of the problems doesn't mean that it isn't going to be in the lines and one of their offspring getting the problem.......the only way to make sure that there will be no genetic diseases cropping up is if they had been tested for right from the beginning.......the thing w/ a reputable breeder that tests for everything they can is that they will replace the pup and that they want to know each and every pups condition thru/out life so that they know if it's in that line.......they make sure, to the best of their ability, that the lines are free and clear and go from there......i had a GSD mentor in CO that had been breeding/showing GSD and GSP for 25 yrs w/out a problem.....lines tested/screened, the whole works......all of a sudden, in a litter she had bred from parents she had bred along w/ their parents (so, 3 generations of her own selecting), she had 2 pups that had HD......so, after 25 yrs of nothing, where did it come from? .....it's called a throwback in the genetic table from b/4 the testing was done......it happens......

just like someone on another site had been told that her bl/wh/ Border Collie could not have POSSILBLY come from 2 r/wh parents as that is a recessive and bl/wh is a dominant trait (2 recessives cannot throw a dominant)......well, there was obviously bl/wh in the background somewhere....nature...you can't stop it from happening......


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Health testing isn't a 100% garauntee due to recessive genes, however, it does increase the chance of getting a healthy dog PLUS the fact that breeders who are testing will often have a rock solid health gaurantee that the breeder will PAY for treatment serious conditions or REPLACE THE PUP without you having to return the sick dog if you're attached to it. Plus the breeder wil accept the dog back if you can't keep it FOR ANY reason, there-by keeping his/her dogs OUT of the pound.


As far as the breeds you're talking about, any of them, at standard, is small enough and smart enough to be litter trained. It does take MUCH more patience to litter train than to train to go outdoors however and the progress is much slower. As far as yappyness, most well socialized and obedience trained toys aren't that bad. It's the ones who are insecure and are that way and it's usualy due to fear. Fear aggression is the MOST common problem in all dogs, but can be avoided by training. I suggest you look at the top of the training forum, there are many stickies there including Doggy Zen and NILIF that can help you avoid behavioral problems by setting up YOURSELF as the benevolent leader for your dog.


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## Dorygirl (Mar 16, 2007)

Your original question was about choosing between two types of dogs. Anything that is mixed with poodle would be my recommendation. 
I have a cockapoo who is as smart as a whip, trained easily, and doesn't shed. And I love the curly fur with those floppy ears.
Have fun with your decision and best of luck!


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Dorygirl said:


> Your original question was about choosing between two types of dogs. Anything that is mixed with poodle would be my recommendation.
> I have a cockapoo who is as smart as a whip, trained easily, and doesn't shed. And I love the curly fur with those floppy ears.
> Have fun with your decision and best of luck!


She could get the same thing with a purebred poodle except it wouldn't have "cocka" in it's name. Do you know what that means in spanish? I don't think it's spelled the same though. So no worries.


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

Coriona_Vanleigh I get the impression that you want a tiny dog (< 5 lbs) because of the litter training issue.
Size has nothing to do with where they poo. If you wanted to, you could probably train a Newfoundland to use a litter box (it would have to be huge, but my point is that you could do it).
There is a danger in getting a dog that a breeder refers to as a "Teacup" since these dogs are obtained by repeatedly breeding runt to runt. A good breeder will choose the healthiest of the litter (or none at all if the health requirements are not met), not the smallest. If you go for a so-called "Teacup" the animal will more than likely end up with serious health problems that will cause you to either pay big bucks for vet bills or put the dog down, long after the breeder has moved to another state.
My 12 lb cat has a litter box and I would think a 12 lb dog would produce the same amount of waste. Please consider getting a normal sized dog without the health problems.
Good luck whatever you decide.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

cshellenberger said:


> Health testing isn't a 100% garauntee due to recessive genes, however, it does increase the chance of getting a healthy dog PLUS the fact that breeders who are testing will often have a rock solid health gaurantee that the breeder will PAY for treatment serious conditions or REPLACE THE PUP without you having to return the sick dog if you're attached to it. Plus the breeder wil accept the dog back if you can't keep it FOR ANY reason, there-by keeping his/her dogs OUT of the pound.


this is what i was saying, but i was trying to save space.......then my mind started to "wander" anyway and it still ended up being longer than i wanted.... (brain jumps track and shifts gears quite often)......


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Also thought I'd say this...

Love does not make a breeder a good breeder. I love my dogs with all of my heart and soul, but if I bred them (I have a Lab mix, a Lab/ACD/GSD mix, and a Collie/Aussie mix), would that make me a good breeder? No. Being a good breeder isn't about loving your dogs, it is about taking the time to do it properly, and properly means getting your dogs Ch. titled and/or working titled, only breeding once or twice a year or whenever your line needs improving, getting your breeding stock health tested (OFA'd, CERF'd, being teh common ones), but also checking for individual health problems (VWD, allergies, etc.), and much much more. 



> Your original question was about choosing between two types of dogs. Anything that is mixed with poodle would be my recommendation.
> I have a cockapoo who is as smart as a whip, trained easily, and doesn't shed. And I love the curly fur with those floppy ears.
> Have fun with your decision and best of luck!


 Hmmm....so what if she got a Cockapoo that was as stubborn as a Cocker, sheds as bad as a Cocker, has bland fur with half prick ears of a poodle? It is possible, because, Cockapoos are mutts. You never know what you are going to get when you get a mutt, even if you see the parents. 
Chloe is a Collie/Aussie mix...I lucked out and got the good qualities of both of the parents: the short coat of the Aussie, the despostion and activity level of a Collie, and the trainability of both. But what if she had been the BAD qualites of both? What if she had a thick coat like a Collie, the hyperness of an Aussie, they shyness of a Collie as well as the protectiveness of an Aussie? She wouldn't act like the same dog now would she, even though she would have still been the same mix. When you get a mutt, you except a gamble. Sometimes the gambles turn out good, and sometimes they don't. I don't mind gambling like that. But if you are wanting a specific type of dog (doesn't shed, isn't a yapper, small, etc.) it is better off adopting a purebred than a mutt, because then you know what you are getting, for the most part. (The exception to that rule is adult dogs.)

Also thought I'd say this too:
Just because there isn't a dog in the shelters now, doesn't mean one won't show up in just a bit. Don't take the quick and easy way out by buying whatever puppy comes along first. You'll regret it. Wait awhile, look around, and you'll find what you are looking for. 
I had been looking around for a Basset Hound, or a female Lab or Pittie puppy. There were non in shelters near me. Then I brought hom Chloe and couldn't be happier, but since life is full of little ironies, five Bassets were surrendered to shelters in a sixty mile radius of me, and a litter of Labs and Lab/Pittie mixes were surrendered to a local shelter. lol So just wait and look around, you'll find something.

And it isn't that we don't like poodle mixes, we are just horrified by the fact that irresponsible people are breeding mutts and selling them while so many other mutts are dying in shelters, and yet people refuse to adopt from shelters while they flock to purchase mutts for 10x the price.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Corret me if I am wrong but your original question was which puppy will be better suited to the apartment? Or which one should you get?
Well that is your choice, both are small and smaller dogs are usually better suited to apartments as they have a lower exercise need and they are not as big therefore a smaller space will not be detrimental to their physical/mental/emotional health.
However because they are both mixes you can never know what they will be like temperament wise as they grow up. It could be like a poodle, or it could be like a yorkie, or it could be like a chihuahua or it could break all the rules and be like none of them. 
Personally I think you should go to a breed rescue or a shelter and get one of the dogs there. Sure some of them have behaviour issues etc but you will be hard pressed to find a dog or puppy for that matter ANYWHERE ON EARTH that has no problems and will grow up as a perfect little angel. You always have to train them and teach them manners. And if you will be carrying him/her around in a little doggy purse then you will probably have alot of issues to deal with because it has been proven that dogs who are not allowed to be dogs and are cooped up in little purses are usually afraid of other people, become fear biters and are very badly socialized with other animals because they are not allowed to interact with other animals. Paris Hilton's little Tinkerbell bit some camera guy who tried to pet her....probably because she is never allowed out of mommys arms or her gigantic, suffocating purses.
But if you have your heart set on one of these little puppies than I say pick the one you think is best for you. You have to choose based on what you want or what you feel. I hope you pick well. And if I may, please, for the dogs sake, don't carry it around in a bag because it is not good for it.

I should add that both of my dogs are mixes and both of them have their share of problems. Chloe is a maltese toy poodle mix and she had alot of aggression and dominance issues which have taken us YEARS...yes thats right YEARS to work on. She is 4.5 and I am working with ANOTHER professional behaviourist/trainer to work through some of her other issues. Sadie is a cocker spaniel mix and she is a nervous barker. She barks at nothing. She also started being destructive a few weeks ago. As in chewing everything she can get her little mouth on. Yes she is a puppy but she has only ever chewed on her toys until two weeks ago when I came home to my shoes chewed in half and my coffee table with little puppy tooth marks on the leg. We are also working with the trainer to overcome this issue. My aunt has a bichon frise and a bichonfrise poodle mix and the bichon frise was bred by a lady who has been breeding and showing for almost 25 years and this poor little dog has had every single problem associated with her breed that is possible. And the bichon poodle mix has also had several breed specific issues relating to poodles and bichons and is also a destructive chewer and has some serious aggresion issues. She has bitten people though unlike my dog who only hates other animals. 
What I am trying to say is just because it is a mix doesn't mean you will get a perfect little doggy. And just because it is a pure bred doesn't mean it will be a perfect little doggy.


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## bluesbarby (Apr 10, 2007)

So how many of you with children had yourselves and your mate health screened before you conceived? Oh an I'm not talking about a physical (my designer dog had that) I'm talking genetic testing.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

bluesbarby said:


> So how many of you with children had yourselves and your mate health screened before you conceived? Oh an I'm not talking about a physical (my designer dog had that) I'm talking genetic testing.


I'm all for this as soon as I have to pay for my children in advance. Plus, how many human babies are being euthanized because of over population? Who has had a human baby to match their handbag? I'd like to know. You can minimize the ethics like you may do with the partner you choose, but to do so IMO, is nothing worth advocating.


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## bluesbarby (Apr 10, 2007)

Lots of adoptions cost money. Mine were natural but My kids each cost me 3500 plus and my youngest was preemie so her bill topped $50,000. Back then insurance didn't cover the costs. So I paid dearly. No freebies here. The "looks good in my handbag" is an asumption. I have a small dog and I chose it because I wanted to be able to carry it with me - not as an accessory but for convenience so I could take him everywhere. Big dogs in the city aren't welcome.
Everyone talks about dogs being bred to a standard, and to do a job. Most dogs in todays world are "companion" dogs. Most dogs at the shelters are Labs, and large dog mixes, because people don't realize how much exercise and activities these dogs need to make up for the fact that they don't have a job anymore. And dogs are alot of work big or small. They need lots of training and socialization.
To the original poster. My sis has a Chorkie. He's 2 1/2. He's not a yapper but that's more in how you train them. Potty training has been a pain but she didn't crate train which I think was a mistake. But you have to be realistic with small dogs because they have smaller bladders. However, I personally would pick anything with some poodle in it because poodles are smart.
As far as litter training, if you have cats, that will be a problem with almost any dog because they think cat poo is almond roca. Which is why we chose not to do it with Riley.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

Please please please please PLEASE rescue your dog!!I mean , why do you want one ofthose designer breeds?! You can rescue a chihuahua from a rescue in your area. Yes not all breeders are bad.. but ALOT of them are.. and you do NOT want to support them.. Just look for rescues in your area.. 

-Ali


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## skunkstripe (Oct 28, 2006)

bluesbarby said:


> So how many of you with children had yourselves and your mate health screened before you conceived? Oh an I'm not talking about a physical (my designer dog had that) I'm talking genetic testing.


Humans can take themselves to a doctor when they recognize that they need medical attention. Dog not only cannot take themselves to the vet, they depend on us to recognize when they need medical attention.
That is why we as humans owe it to dogs to do careful health screening if we are going to breed them.
Furthermore, in cases like this, the human who is doing the breeding is NOT the one who is going to end up taking care of the dog. That is normally a little different with humans. 
For some of these people, once they have made the sale, that is the end of their relationship with the animal.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

skunkstripe said:


> Humans can take themselves to a doctor when they recognize that they need medical attention. Dog not only cannot take themselves to the vet, they depend on us to recognize when they need medical attention.
> That is why we as humans owe it to dogs to do careful health screening if we are going to breed them.
> Furthermore, in cases like this, the human who is doing the breeding is NOT the one who is going to end up taking care of the dog. That is normally a little different with humans.
> For some of these people, once they have made the sale, that is the end of their relationship with the animal.


normally, yes....but not always so.....what about the children that get left in dumpsters, on hospital doorsteps or just simply the parents say after their Downs-syndrome baby is born that they don't want it.....who's left to care for the child then?.........

the comparisons here are a bit much but there is some truth to it......and CP, there is an over population in the human race, just ask China.....and the reason for human babies not being euthanised has more to do w/ legalities, i think, then over-population issues.......there are still babies being born to parents that, if they had had themselves screened/tested, the babies wouldn't be it the "predicament" that they are.....ever hear of the "children of the night" problem? (can't remember the name of the disease)....if both parents carry the gene, the children are afflicted to sensitivity to light...they can only be in certain types of lighting or they burn/blister......and it's not "caught" until the kids are born and alot of times pre-school age........


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

bluesbarby said:


> So how many of you with children had yourselves and your mate health screened before you conceived? Oh an I'm not talking about a physical (my designer dog had that) I'm talking genetic testing.


This is actually a pretty big gripe of mine. The hospital unit I work on has recently cared for 2 siblings of a group of 5. All of whom have sickle cell. From my understanding 2 of the siblings died due to sickle cell complications. Why in Hades did their parents not get tested prior to sentencing these children to a horrible, painful life? And after the first child with sickle cell, why not simply stop having children and not sentence more children to the same miserable fate? No, we have to make as many lives as we can absolutely miserable. 

Anyway, I'll jump down off my soapbox.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

bluesbarby said:


> So how many of you with children had yourselves and your mate health screened before you conceived? Oh an I'm not talking about a physical (my designer dog had that) I'm talking genetic testing.


Most people don't even know about health testing which is why you have to do research and educate yourself before you breed ANY animal. And as far as I am concerned the reason the STD rates in people is so high is because people don't talk to their significant others before doing the deed. I for one did talk to my boyfriend and I made it very clear that should I discover one day that I have syphilis or clamydia or any other STD....he would be in some VERY serious trouble. Also I have had myself genetically screened as my family has a high incidence of childhood lukemia, sickle cell aniema and brest cancer...oh yeah and brain tumors and heart disease run in my family as well. I have the marker for sickle cell anemia which means if I have aboy there is a 75% chance he will have sickle cell anemia and if I have a girl she will have a 25% chance of having it. And as for the lukemia, they have a 25% chance of getting it boy or girl. Thats why I have dogs....I guess that makes me a responsible breeder?
Now if I had a bitch that I wanted to breed and I knew that several of her littermates had...lets say....hip displaysia, the smart responsible thing to do would be to have her checked for this and not breed her even though she has been checked. However that doesn't happen most people think "ah well, my girl doesn't have it and the vet checked her and said she is healthy so lets go ahead, bring on the stud." 
And come on....this is a forum talking about dogs. Did you get yourself genetically tested before you had kids? I have yet to meet a single person who has had themselves checked to see if they have any of the markers to pass on serious illnesses to their children. And why? because you don't have to spend thousands to get yourself a baby unless you cannot have one naturally in which case you would be stupid not to have yourself checked out for genetic abnormalties etc. Kids are expensive to raise but its free to make one.
Oh and Skunkstipe.....I agree with you whole heartedly!!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I'm all for this as soon as I have to pay for my children in advance. Plus, how many human babies are being euthanized because of over population? Who has had a human baby to match their handbag? I'd like to know. You can minimize the ethics like you may do with the partner you choose, but to do so IMO, is nothing worth advocating.


I couldn't have said it better! 

I would however add, humans can think for themselves. WE decide which dogs are being bred. By domesticating the dog we have changed nature and assumed responsibility for the dogs evolution and therefore it's health problems. 

In nature, only the HEALTHIEST specimans get to mate, an alpha female wolf WILL NOT mate with ANY but a HEALTHY ALPHA male. The same is true in dog packs, wild cats, birds ect. Also, a pup with heart, hip or other such problems would never reach adulthood.


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## LeRoymydog (Feb 25, 2007)

I have owned a yorkie/chihuahua mix. She did not bark unless we said "Who's here?" She was very well behaved and easy to train. All we used was a soda can with pennies in it. Barely ever had an accident.

She was and still is a cool dog. She is currently living with my in-laws because my father in law was really sick and he became attached to here. When he got better (which nobody can believe he did), we couldn't take her away from him. They are still best friends to this day.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

My point tirluc, as you seemed to have missed it, is that dogs are unique and not comparable to humans. To try and compare dogs with humans in this point only gives reason to devalue the ethics in dog breeding. I'm sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree if you expect me to accept an unfavorable comparison to give reason for poor breeding ethics. Others may have it in them to do this, but I won't, and care not to when breeding in general is best described as, haphazard at best. And anyone who would argue this point, IMO, has watched too many Mouse House movies.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

dansamy said:


> This is actually a pretty big gripe of mine. The hospital unit I work on has recently cared for 2 siblings of a group of 5. All of whom have sickle cell. From my understanding 2 of the siblings died due to sickle cell complications. Why in Hades did their parents not get tested prior to sentencing these children to a horrible, painful life? And after the first child with sickle cell, why not simply stop having children and not sentence more children to the same miserable fate? No, we have to make as many lives as we can absolutely miserable.
> 
> Anyway, I'll jump down off my soapbox.


I believe it is encouraged to test if sickle cell is in the family. I also believe many people are starting to test for health conditions. However, not all are going to show up. There is NO test for Autism, no way to predict who will have an Down's baby in advance of pregnancy, no way to predict if your child is going to have ADD or ADHD. The few dieseases you can test for are encouraged and are mostly 'racially' dominant. Also, many times one child is born with out the sickle cell gene then another is born with it in the same family. 

As far as Heart Disease, you can have some control over whether you get it or not. Diabetes is a gamble and again, type 2 can be avoided with control of risk issues. Again, we are able to make the decisions for ourselves, dogs are selectivly bred. BIG differance


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## Dorygirl (Mar 16, 2007)

CP, tirluc isn't the only one who missed it. What in the world are you talking about?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Dorygirl said:


> CP, tirluc isn't the only one who missed it. What in the world are you talking about?


Read blue's posts in this thread.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

I really have to say some of you people are no help what so ever because your to stuck on your own opinions of how the world should work as to actually offer any kind of real advice. And should also take into consideration that not everyone who looks not by a mixed breed is a complete idiot and has no idea what they are doing. So for the 1 thousandth time. Yes I looked up on petfinder, yes I went to many ,many shelters,yes I asked this breeder atleast 100 questions,yes I seen her entire house,yes I contacted previous buyers,yes I contacted 3 of her vets,she has been raising chi-poo's and chorkies and cockapoos specifically for over 40 years. Okay she is a good breeder,she is trying to better a breed ive seen enough paperwork to know health problems are not a factor, And I'm sorry but some people are just plain idiots if they think just because a dog is a purebred it wont go without having health problems the same with a shelter dog, majority of shelters dont do alot of testing other than for worms are parvo they certainly dont dna test them. So you are waisting your words and time by trying to convince that your opinion is somehow of gods. Because you know everything and everyone on earth right? Because You are somehow better than everyone and have that right? So please get over yourselves people. MY QUESTION WAS FOR PEOPLE WHO OWNED A CHI-POO OR A CHORKIE AND TO LET ME KNOW OF THEIR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. Not At any given time ask did I to know 100 opinions on what terms is breeder considered good or what your personal opinion is on mixed breeds? Did I? No. I swear not everyone on here, but most of the replies on here is like talking to a brickwall. People I'm not an idiot Im daughter to breeders, My parents have bred cattle for Prairie Farms for over 35 years as well Quarter Horses and Morgans. They have also raised redbones,foxhounds,and beagles for 25. I myself am in my junior year as a veterinary technician and have been a certified groomer for 4 years and also run a boarding facility for horses and teach and train and also I have many horses here that have been seized for abuse and neglect. So I know what to look for okay. So instead of me having to sit here and explain to 30 people my reasons for getting this breed, how about actually giving me some advice I can take seriously. You act like this is some kind of religious war against those who breed mixed vs,pure's. Your never going to win that battle so if someone asked a question about them, if you know answer it, if not your opinion as to why you dislike the idea is unneeded. Yes there are alot of bad breeders if I where asking how do I tell, or what are the pro's or cons of mix vs pure vs shelter pet your advice would come to much advantage but I'm not. So by you trying to hound me into changing my mind is of no use so just stop. I'm sorry if I come across sounding rude by in no manner am I trying to put anyone down. I find it incredibly disrespectful that I ask a simple question and instead of an answer I have to give an encyclopedia sized explanation of myself. I have the common sense, wisdom,and knowledge to find a good animal from years of experience. This is why this topic gets out of hand because when someone asked a question about them YOU choose to jump down their throats and tell them everything you can to try and persuade them as to not get a mixed breed. So here is how to act like an adult and to those older than I ought to grow up some more. You can either A.) answer the question at hand or you can B.) keep your opinion's about them to yourself and simply say I don't know. Again I did not ask about breeder's or their methods because I already know, I did not ask about the pro's and cons of other breeds, I ask about a chipoo or a chorkie if you own one or a pure of chihuahua,yorkshire or poodle I would be delighted to hear everything about it. But I would not like to hear any more of how mixed breeds are bad,how you think the breeders are stupid for breeding that or why i should check out a shelter. Because I have done all of the above. Again I apologize but honestly you really ought to keep your tongues to yourself if you just wish to start an argument because you feel something is unjust. My people where raised if you can't say something nice dont say it at all, there you go kids.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think that's the longest paragraph I've ever seen.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

I know man lol. Its like hello.....Do I really have to say all that to get a simple point across, giminey


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> I really have to say some of you people are no help what so ever because your to stuck on your own opinions of how the world should work as to actually offer any kind of real advice. And should also take into consideration that not everyone who looks not by a mixed breed is a complete idiot and has no idea what they are doing. So for the 1 thousandth time. Yes I looked up on petfinder, yes I went to many ,many shelters,yes I asked this breeder atleast 100 questions,yes I seen her entire house,yes I contacted previous buyers,yes I contacted 3 of her vets,she has been raising chi-poo's and chorkies and cockapoos specifically for over 40 years. Okay she is a good breeder,she is trying to better a breed


Ok, this is as far as I got. But that last part is just silly. Chi-poo's, Chorkies and Cockapoos are NOT breeds. There are no standards, no health guarentees, therefore cannot be "bettered". If you want to go out and support the unethical breeding of mutts, there's not much more anyone can do to convince you not to. I hope one day you will understand, and not take it personally. It isn't the dogs themselves, sure they can be wonderful pets, but BYB's and puppymills will never stop as long as people continue to line their pockets. There are over 160 breeds recognized by the American and Canadian Kennel Clubs. Is there not one purebred on those lists that appeals to you?

ETA: Well I scanned through the rest of your paragraph, and wow, you find it disprespectful for people voicing their opinions on a public forum? Nobody that I can see has been rude about it, myself and others are simply backing up our beliefs and our love for dogs. I volunteer at my local humane society, and I get to see all these wonderful mutts that show up daily, and many of which have to be euthanized simply because there is no room to keep them all. Why? Because people buy these dogs thinking they "know" how they will turn out. When their behavior isn't that of which they think it should be and don't like it, or because their dog doesn't turn out looking like that mix "should" look like........you name an excuse, I've heard it. So naturally I want to support and promote only reputable and responsible breeders. You can't expect people to not respond to something they are so passionate about.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I'm going to say this as nicely as I can. You came on her and asked about buying a mixed breed, this board is FULL to the top with people who do rescue and who responsibly breed purebred dogs. I personally see dogs at shelters of ALL shapes, sizes and ages who can't get adopted because people are going about and PURPOSLY mix breeding dog for profit and slapping cutsy-pie names on them to sell to the public. Here's a Yorkshire terrier x Poodle if you want one. http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8563699

a Yokie Chihuahua x
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8467614

A chi poo
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8522105

chi Yorkie
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8522105

Oh, that's right, you'd rather pay 400 or 500 for an ill bred pup.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

You need to come visit my shelter. My local shelter has over 2,500 dogs waiting in line for a euthanasia table to open up. You may not like to hear these opinions, but don't blame us. Blame the people who've made our dogs so succesful that their lives now depend on people going above and beyond in their search, further than what you've done, to find them a good home. In light of your request, I'm sorry, these dogs can't and won't be forgotten, and not even you can silence us.


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## Amaya-Mazie-Marley (Apr 15, 2007)

Do you have your mind absolutely set on a chi-poo or a chorkie? I am always up for telling people about my favorite breed in the world, Chinese Crested. They are small, my 2 year old weighs 8 pounds, you can have a hairless one or one with hair. They are an amazing breed all around. Very sweet loveable and companion dogs. They can live in an apartment because they don't need that much exercise. I have a picture of mine in my avatar, I'm going to change it to a better one. If you have your mind set on those breeds, then thats your choice and go for it. I think that you would be better with a toy breed thats purebred though. I have a mutt, you can see her pictures in the tread titled basenji? or not? and she looks like a very sweet and amazing dog and she's just the opposite. We aren't sure what she's mixed with, intstead of terrier its terror. There is no guarantee your mix breed will get the bad charachteristics but theres also no guarantee they will get the good ones either. I suggest you look into Chinese Cresteds or other toy breeds. No, being a purebred dog doesn't dismiss the fact they could have health problems, having a "designer breed" just ups the chances.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

Again every breed got here by breeder mixes. Dogs change with peoples demands. And seriously your just a plain idiot if you think just because your breeding a pure dog your a "good" breeder. I've seen some pretty hanis things going around in both. People want companions, 98% doesn't use hunting dogs to hunt,herding dogs to herd, or w/e. People like dogs for COMPANIONS. Not everyone has a mile long yard for big dogs and not everyone likes every single breed. Alot of mixes do compliment each other quite well and the further you breed them down through generations Yes the will all develop the same basic characteristics. Any one with common sense let alone has actually bred animals will tell you that. Okay and I'm not driving 10-12 hours to go to a shelter, I've been to everyone around here in a 100 mile radios and have left my phone number with all of them to contact me if a dog i was searching for came to the shelter. I have called most of them back at least twice a week for the last 3 months face it, people the perfect dog isn't always there and I'm not adopting 1 that isn't what I'm looking for thats stupid.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I really feel you NEED to read these. They are FACTS on the GENETIC health problems of the breeds your breeder is crossing. Remember, by crossing breeds you DO NOT eliminate the health problems, in fact, if BOTH or All the breds have the SAME health problems, you actually INCREASE the chances of it in the pups.


genetic problems in poodles

*Epilepsy*
*Hypothyroidism*
*Legg-Calve-Perthes**
*Patellar Luxation**
*Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA)* 


Yorkies
*Campylobacteriosis* 
*Coccidiosis* 
*Collapsing Trachea* 
*Cushing's disease* 
*Eclampsia* 
*Hemorrhagic Gastric Enteritis (HGE)* 
*Hypoglycemia* 
*Legg-Calve-Perthes (LCP)** 
*Liver Shunt* 
*Pancreatitis* 
*Patella Luxation**
*Reverse Sneezing (Pharyngeal Gag Reflex)* 

Chihuahuas

Hypoglycemia*
Reverse sneezing*
Collapsing trachea*
Pateller Luxation*


The red asterisks note health problems common to two or more of the breeds involved in the mixes you're talking about. The risks will be DOUBLED that your pup will come down with one of the se health problems.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Well, maybe that's the problem, you're looking for the perfect dog, and it doesn't exist. So I guess with your logic any decision you make will be...stupid? 

This has nothing to do with purebreds being better than mixes. Why do those that advocate designer dogs always say this, I don't understand. However, in terms of breeding ethics, more times then not the average purebred breeder fails my ethics standard. I can't even imagine how a mix breed breeder could even start to get on the list.

And you're right, people want companion dogs, even if that means disposing of 90% of the litter for a select one dog. People like dogs so much that they are willing to forego the ethics to find their companion. With 20,000 dogs crossing through my shelter every year, I say yes, they "demand", they "want", and they are looking for the "perfect" dog too much! It's not a matter of a _need for_ but a _must for_ stringent breeding ethics, and for all breeders.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

And again Ive seen the paperwork up to the great grandparents, and they have had NO problems what so ever and once again I tell you rather i get the pure bred of those dogs it has issue with those diseases, the same kinda people who unknowingly breed them in mills or life conditions or just try to make money, Honestly,you act like bigots. And oh tell me to go to the shelter again, because they are all immune from disease and have been checked properly right, somehow found all the dogs parents,great grand parents and so on......So by you making the point that mixed dogs are basically all bad and the people who breed them are bad its one of those you should just insert foot here kinds of things, Because shelter dogs/cats aren't all purebreds with pedigrees in case thats a newsflash for you. Let me tell you something both my cats are adopted, 1 youngest ran out of the house and was picked up 1 weekend and taken to our county shelter wasn't even there for 3 days and I had to spend $400 in vet bills because she caught some upper respiratory discease. And working at Petco let me give you an insight with another local shelter who brings there cats there to stay for adoption, these people who supposedly know what they are doing. They brought in there cats 2 of which where sick with upper res. A.) they where dumb enough to bring them there untreated, dumber still to put them in with the healthy cats and expect them not to get sick C.) yet it amazed me how stupid they where to get the sickest treated and then bring them back. Instead of having ALL of them treated since they where ALL living together so please, enlighted some more. And yet something else about shelter animals dogs they are mixed, some do not compliment each other some do it extremely well, my b/f has a rescue, a great dane,doberman mix. The biggest lap dog I've ever seen. 6 years old and still the sweetest puppy in the world yet protects his family very loyally. So stop with the stereo typing b.s. There are good breeders there are bad, there are good shelters there are bad. Its all based on the individual person, their experiences and their knowledge or lack there of. With that said I am tired of waisting my time to a bunch of bigots who insist they know everything in the world and everybody. So jump off your throne and stop thinking your so high and mighty above everyone else. I'd like to thank the 2 people that where honestly helpful and as for the rest of you if your so passionate about this why don't you use your time more productively,grab a picket sign and go rally somewhere that well actually do you some good, Because your close minded,ignorant opinions mean little to he people here,especially myself.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

(insert hand gesture of plane flying over head here)


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Hmm, I think the MAJORITY on here feel as I and Curbside and the others that have responded to you do. You are in the minority on this board, but I guess you don't realize that. 

You are the one who is closed minded and unwilling to learn. Not us. We learn every day here, when we pull dogs for rescue or see them taken to euthinization chambers for no other reason than people such as yourself who throw them away. 

By the way, not only am I a board moderator (as is Curbside) I am also the State Coordinator for FORM, a nation wide Mastiff rescue. http://www.mastiffrescue.org/main.htm


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

and fyi I never said they where better or worse than purebreds. I am just one of th people who thinks just because they breed them make them bad people like some like to think. I think its cruel to breed them for profit, without proper knowledge and let alone puppy mills or in bad conditions or along those lines. Alot of the so called designer breeds I find to be useless and nothing more than a fashion statement, however some I do find just cause in, and in the extremely small portion who follow ethical guidelines trying to create an akc recognized breed I fully support. I haven't a problem with purebreeder's what so ever, preserving any dog and its heritage is a noble just.And as for "perfect" the animal which I find to perfect suit what I am looking for is a very small 5'6 lbs, very smart,low shedding,highly affectionate,low barking, non timid,aggressive,companion dog. who is in perfect health and raised without issue, that is the perfect companion i am looking for. And if it be found at the shelter or by a breeder I dont care, and by personally meeting the 2 puppies and going all the grueling work to make sure that is what i was looking for. And to me that is my perfect companion. I am sorry that I did not find him at the shelter it is not my personal fault so stop treating me as if it where. My standards maybe high but I dont care because I'm not simply getting a pet just to say I have one, I am looking for a girls best friend.

no you are close minded because you think just because there are stupid people out there breeding for profit and from mills to make money everyone is like that and your also close minded to think that every shelter out there runs as properly as they should and by running a shelter then you should know when people are looking for a certain dog they are not going to settle for the complete opposite just because its giving a sad puppy face. I do fully support saving a shelter pet, i rescue horses myself which has saved alot of lives here because I am 1 in 3 in a great area that does and many would have died if it wasn't for that. Many of which I have kept simply because they deserve a good life, not because they make nice lawn ornaments, they cant even be ridden anymore because of some of the things they have went through but they deserve to be fed,loved,and plenty of wide open grass to run and play in. If I wasn't moving like I said the perfect companion for me on my farm would be one of the many mixed large hounds here, and I would gladly take them in, but I can't. I try to sponsor as many pets at out local shelter as I can and have fostered a few. I have checked like I said that was my 1st choice it always has, they simply have very few that fit my profile and for the ones that do they are well on there way to adulthood or have health issues and i want a healthy puppy. Now if i was saying I was buying a purebreed poodle you people would have never said anything would you? Probably not. It doesn't matter what animal I choose to go through with it still has to have those qualities ad be from a breeder I deem fit which there are extremely low numbers of.


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Here's a Yorkshire terrier x Poodle if you want one. http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8563699
> 
> a Yokie Chihuahua x
> http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8467614
> ...


It's great that you have these kinds of mixed breeds in shelters where you live, Carla, but that doesn't mean that you can find them all over the country. As Coriona has mentioned countless times (and I've also brought this up multiple times in the past, to no avail), these particular mixed breeds are NOT AVAILABLE IN HER AREA. I had the same problem when I was searching for a puggle - in fact, months later there are STILL no available puggles in shelters in my location. I'm all for rescuing from shelters if you can find the RIGHT dog for you, but if you have your heart set on a particular kind of dog (be it mixed or purebred) and the shelters just don't have what you're looking for due to your location, then obviously the next logical step would be to find a caring breeder in your area.

By the way Coriona, I ignored the negative posters on this board, did my own research, and found my dream puppy. I am 100% satisfied with my little puggle...he's my best friend and I wouldn't trade him for any purebred dog in the world. You are doing the right thing by trying to find out as much information as you can before getting your puppy. Follow your heart and do what's best for you - I wish you the best of luck in your search! I think that all of the breeds/mixed breeds that you mentioned are adorable and I know you'll find the right puppy for you.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

Shellen you say you have a shelter correct? well I am definitely not looking for a mastiff but by all means if anyone comes across a shelter pet who they think fits the description of what I'm looking for than I'd love if someone let me know, I'll contact them to see if they can transfer it to our local shelter for adoption or see if they are willing to ship as a last resort. I am not against it by all means. The whole discussion has gotten far out of hand because of the whole breeder thing. Aside from our different opinions on that matter. When it comes down to it I told you what I was looking for and after the shelter search between talking with co-workers,customers,friends,fellow pet owners my search road lead to those choices. I never just started out looking for a "designer" I didn't even realize about the whole designer thing up until about 2 months ago. I heard of cockapoo's a lapradoodles (sp?) and that was it. So I am not one of those designer ravers nor am I against it, only those who breed unethically. Just in my search recently have I found 1 person out of how many to breed designers to be fir for breeding them, that says alot about the people who are doing it and for what causes so yes I do fully understand where you are coming from and agree with alot with what you say. Perhaps it is the way I perceive you saying it to me its like your saying anyone who does it is automatically unethical,bad,ignorant people. To me thats unfair. Thats like saying everyone who wears makeup is vain. But I do fully agree those doing it under bad terms greatly increases the population of shelter animals for that not only should they lose their breeding license but shouldn't own an animal period, or for anyone who breeds ignorantly or unethically. All I am saying is that there is a small probably less than 5% out of the many who breed designers who have actually gone through proper steps,procedures,health testing and so forth, trying to make a standard for future AKC recognition and only on those terms do I agree. And out know there are very few. Any other way I fully support everything you are saying. But regardless if you have a pet like I said please by every means let me know. That is what I am interested in, I didn't come here for any reason other than that, certainly not to argue about breeding with any one, and I am not trying to set anyone on bad terms here. Like I said I have been searching for awhile and still I call our local shelters and nothing, and I'd like 1 here soon as I would like atleast 3 months of training before I move. So aside from our different opinions of you have any suggestions please do come forward I welcome that. and and p.s as for the chinese crested I couldnt no offense I know their sweet i watched the america's ugliest dog award and seen this years top 3 winners where all crested (mind they all had genetic defects) but im scared for life lol

Thank You doggie lover, Thats a much needed change of atmosphere lol. I've heard alot about puggles they are very cute little babies, Im glad you found your dreamy baby.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ALL of those are available for adoption in TN rescues! I did the search specifically with HER state in the location box. You see, that's the thing about rescue, if you go to the right one, they will help to arrainge transport for the dog, they want to get them rehomed THAT bad!

I'm sorry, but there's NO excuse you can give me to justify purposly breeding designer dogs. IF they meant for the dog to be AKC recognized they wouldn't have a hybrid type name. 

I'll give an example, though it's a cat breed. Years ago a cat breeder set out to develop a new breed of cat, the Pixie Bob, named for the 'legend cat' she got the name from, a supposed bobcat-domestic cat she got FOR FREE from her mother. This cat looked EXACTLY like a Miniature Bobcat. Through careful selection, getting other such rejected 'breedings' from other people and with help of like minded people her little community developed the breed through several generations. They did not sell the offspring to the public until they had the foundation stock set to a standard and the standard ACCEPTED by TICA (though they did sell NUETERED 3rd generation to a FEW carefully screened people). THEN they formed a breed club, For The Love Of Pixie, which set the standards. This is how the PIXIE BOB was developed.

There is in NO way a refeance to any breeds, just the name that connotates the founding cats name and the fact that it's a bobtailed breed.


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> You are the one who is closed minded and unwilling to learn. Not us. We learn every day here, when we pull dogs for rescue or see them taken to euthinization chambers for no other reason than people such as yourself who throw them away.


Whoa, ok you've definitely crossed the line here...what makes you think that she's going to throw her dog away??? Just because she's looking for a mixed breed instead of a purebred, you automatically assume that the dog will end up in a shelter? That's absolutely ridiculous - shame on you! It's obvious that Coriona is doing plenty of research prior to making a decision and from what she has said, it sounds like she fully intends to love and spoil her dog. She is NOT just going out and purchasing any dog simply because it's "cute" without researching beforehand. 

There are plenty of purebred dogs (not just mixed breeds) that end up in shelters because their owners didn't do the necessary research and weren't prepared. Coriona is obviously not one of these people.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> Shellen you say you have a shelter correct?
> 
> quote]
> No, I said I'm the state coordinator for Mastiff rescue. I also work with other rescues both all breed and breed specific to rehome other dogs. It's a FAR cry from having a shelter. It's bad enough having to put down a dog you've rescued FROM a shelter because you find out he/she has extreame health problems and it would be more humane to let them go. But at least they got held as they went to sleep, instead of lying on some cold table being held down. HAve you ever watched the euthinization process?
> ...


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> what I am looking for is a very small 5'6 lbs, very smart,low shedding,highly affectionate,low barking, non timid,aggressive,companion dog. who is in perfect health and raised without issue


The Toy Poodle and the Bichon both come to mind as two breeds that would suit your description of the "perfect pet". I don't own any of the breeds or mixes that your interseted in, but as a Vet-Tech in an urban area and being involved with dogs since I was 10, I do have alot of first hand experience with the breeds. Both Chi's and Yorkie's are, more often then not, nippy little ankle bitters that they are sterotyped as unfortunately. Both breeds have aggresive tendencies, mainly towards strangers which would include your relatives. Barking is probably one of thier favorite pastimes.

I doubt many of us own a Chorkie or a Chipoo, so the best person to answer your questions would be the breeders that you've contacted. Since they are ethical breeders they should be able to help you make the right choice for your perfect pet, even if it is or isn't one of thier dogs. And if they aren't ignorant breeders then they should know exactly what they are breeding for and what you should expect from one of their puppies. 

I'd be curious to know what their reasons were for breeding the Chorike/Chipoo and wheather they actually have a goal in mind for the future of thier breeding program and the breed.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh, just so you know this statement


cshellenberger said:


> Hmm, I think the MAJORITY on here feel as I and Curbside and the others that have responded to you do. You are in the minority on this board, but I guess you don't realize that.
> 
> You are the one who is closed minded and unwilling to learn. Not us. We learn every day here, when we pull dogs for rescue or see them taken to euthinization chambers for no other reason than people such as yourself who throw them away.
> 
> By the way, not only am I a board moderator (as is Curbside) I am also the State Coordinator for FORM, a nation wide Mastiff rescue. http://www.mastiffrescue.org/main.htm


was in response to this statement



Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> . as for the rest of you if your so passionate about this why don't you use your time more productively,grab a picket sign and go rally somewhere that well actually do you some good, Because your close minded,ignorant opinions mean little to he people here,especially myself.


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## DoggieLover (Feb 4, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Hmm, I think the MAJORITY on here feel as I and Curbside and the others that have responded to you do. You are in the minority on this board, but I guess you don't realize that.
> 
> You are the one who is closed minded and unwilling to learn. Not us. We learn every day here, when we pull dogs for rescue or see them taken to euthinization chambers for no other reason than people such as yourself who throw them away.
> 
> ...


It's not really "out of context"...I quoted the whole statement/thought that you yourself had separated into its own paragraph. But here's your entire post for the sake of context... Nope, still sounds just as harsh to me. You are still accusing her of being one of the people who would throw their dogs away, when none of her previous posts would give you any basis for such a horrible accusation.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

Chi's and Yorkie's have both unfortunately have earned that reputation. I have never personally owned a yorkie but a chihuahua and if raised properly are not agressive or snappish what so ever, and yes the bichon is a very lovely dog, my parents have a bich-poo (yeah yeah designer) there really is nothing poodle about him, our groomer, breeds pure bichons and when I pick him up I cant tell him apart from the rest of the little cotton balls ( the exception he's the fatter one lol) he is a total spaz I love him to death, He's getting older but still runs around like a maniac, jumping from couch to couch, chasing toys, and runs 0-60 to your lap if it even looks like your going to sit down, talk about sweetheart, so yes that was a breed I greatly considered because its perfect in everything but size I'm looking for smaller than 10 lbs (hes tubby though and weighs 15) About in the 5-6 range. Thats why chihuahua was a good choice but would love the intelligence and low shed factor of the poodle, hince the chi-poo.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

tirluc said:


> sorry, but i agree w/ DoggieLover here......no, you can't tell her what her mix is going to be like...it is a mix and i'm sure she realizes this.....i, too, have looked thru the shelters at dogs claimed to be BC and just b/c it's Bl/wh doesn't mean that it is a Border (or, on the other end of the spectrum, just b/c it's NOT bl/wh doesn't mean it CAN'T be a Border)......and as for the shelters/rescues screening for health problems, that isn't true either.....if it were then they would never be able to afford to keep the places going.....do you know of any of these places that test for HD/CEA/PRA/vWD, screen for epilepsy, etc? .....i sure don't......ask any shelter and most rescues what "health" tests have been done and the most you'll get is the basic shot, heartworm (if you're lucky), internal parasites, and a basic check up......
> 
> so, c'mon guys, can't she just get a simple feedback as to the pros and cons of the breeds of which these mutts are?.....that, in itself, will at least give her a general idea of what is being thrown into the mixes......


The health screening that breeders should be doing is to help prevent the puppies being born with inheritable diseases. Shelter and rescue dogs are already here - their birth can't be prevented. Ideally they should be altered, so their puppies health is not at issue. But the point is why should someone who is not rescuing support irresponsible breeding by not demanding that health screening be done on the parents of their puppies? 

I've mentioned my own blind dog. She was actually a rescue that I got from my vet who took her and her brother in from a breeder who was tired of advertising at 8 weeks. Because I was rescuing her, it was obviously too late to think about pre-breeding health screenings, but there is no way that I would have ever bought her from that breeder, with my money supporting her breeding operation, when she hadn't done everything necessary to insure that my dog would be healthy. My dog suffered because of that breeder's irresponsibility. If my dog had come from a rescue or shelter, just as with the interceding vet, the blame would still have solely been on the breeder.

It's about prevention - it's too late for a shelter or rescue to prevent health problems.



Dorygirl said:


> Your original question was about choosing between two types of dogs. Anything that is mixed with poodle would be my recommendation.
> I have a cockapoo who is as smart as a whip, trained easily, and doesn't shed. And I love the curly fur with those floppy ears.
> Have fun with your decision and best of luck!


It sure makes ya wonder why there are so many untrained cockapoos in the shelters. Maybe it's not wise to say that a breed is easily trained. Maybe it would be better to ask the dog buyer about their own abilities to train.



bluesbarby said:


> So how many of you with children had yourselves and your mate health screened before you conceived? Oh an I'm not talking about a physical (my designer dog had that) I'm talking genetic testing.


Probably none, and isn't that sad? Think of the pain and agony our children could avoid if we were able to take advantage of genetic testing? Instead, we rely on love, or lust, and hope for the best.

Thank goodness dog breeding has nothing to do with the dogs loving each other, and we can do health screening to avoid that future inheritable illness. And since we can, don't we owe it to the dogs, and their future owners, to do so?


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

What was wrong with the toy poodle again? What is it about the Chipoo that makes you feel it's the perfect dog for you?

There's actually alot of breeds that would fit into your requirements. You may want to check out the toy breeds on the AKC website and see if any of them spark your interest.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> Again every breed got here by breeder mixes. Dogs change with peoples demands. And seriously your just a plain idiot if you think just because your breeding a pure dog your a "good" breeder. I've seen some pretty hanis things going around in both. People want companions, 98% doesn't use hunting dogs to hunt,herding dogs to herd, or w/e. People like dogs for COMPANIONS. Not everyone has a mile long yard for big dogs and not everyone likes every single breed. Alot of mixes do compliment each other quite well and the further you breed them down through generations Yes the will all develop the same basic characteristics. Any one with common sense let alone has actually bred animals will tell you that. Okay and I'm not driving 10-12 hours to go to a shelter, I've been to everyone around here in a 100 mile radios and have left my phone number with all of them to contact me if a dog i was searching for came to the shelter. I have called most of them back at least twice a week for the last 3 months face it, people the perfect dog isn't always there and I'm not adopting 1 that isn't what I'm looking for thats stupid.


To everyone but the OP, this is why education alone doesn't work. Too many people refuse to learn. This is why we need legislation. Sometimes, no matter how hard we try, there's some people that are bound and determined to buy pet shop puppies, to buy from bad breeders (who love their dogs <cough cough>), to get dogs that don't fit their lifestyle, to breed bad quality dogs, and to abandon them when they become inconvenient. And no amount of education is going to change that. This is the perfect example, and I'd almost think that we found a ringer for the side of pro-regulations and legislation.

To the OP, is there a reason that you can't tell us what health screening the breeder you think is so wonderful, has done? Is it a secret? If you asked 100 questions, surely that was one of them?



Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> Now if i was saying I was buying a purebreed poodle you people would have never said anything would you? Probably not. It doesn't matter what animal I choose to go through with it still has to have those qualities ad be from a breeder I deem fit which there are extremely low numbers of.


That's not true. You would have received advise on how to choose a responsible breeder breeding purebred poodles. You would have been advised to choose one that had done health screening before breeding. And hopefully, you would have been able to answer what health screening s/he had done instead of just claiming that s/he loved their dogs. It's not about whether the dogs are pure or mixed, it's about the type of breeding that's being done, and there are very few (never found one yet) breeders that are breeding mixed breed dogs that are doing it responsibly. 

So once again, what health screening has your breeder done?



DoggieLover said:


> It's great that you have these kinds of mixed breeds in shelters where you live, Carla, but that doesn't mean that you can find them all over the country. As Coriona has mentioned countless times (and I've also brought this up multiple times in the past, to no avail), these particular mixed breeds are NOT AVAILABLE IN HER AREA. I had the same problem when I was searching for a puggle - in fact, months later there are STILL no available puggles in shelters in my location. I'm all for rescuing from shelters if you can find the RIGHT dog for you, but if you have your heart set on a particular kind of dog (be it mixed or purebred) and the shelters just don't have what you're looking for due to your location, then obviously the next logical step would be to find a caring breeder in your area.
> 
> By the way Coriona, I ignored the negative posters on this board, did my own research, and found my dream puppy. I am 100% satisfied with my little puggle...he's my best friend and I wouldn't trade him for any purebred dog in the world. You are doing the right thing by trying to find out as much information as you can before getting your puppy. Follow your heart and do what's best for you - I wish you the best of luck in your search! I think that all of the breeds/mixed breeds that you mentioned are adorable and I know you'll find the right puppy for you.


So what health screening did your "caring breeder" do before breeding the parents of your puggle?


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## Dorygirl (Mar 16, 2007)

DogAdvocat, you are too much. It's really not that we refuse to learn. We just don't share your opinion. Your passion is admirable, but there is no need for the nastiness and sarcasm.

There's a movie called "Gattica" about a future society where all people are genetically engineered to produce perfect specimens. You'd love it.




> It sure makes ya wonder why there are so many untrained cockapoos in the shelters. Maybe it's not wise to say that a breed is easily trained. Maybe it would be better to ask the dog buyer about their own abilities to train.


There are way more untrained labs and rotties in shelters than cockapoos. Everybody knows poodles are smart and I was just sharing my experience with my dog. She was easy to train and I am no expert trainer. 

I am glad to see that you've recognized the cockapoo as a breed, though.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Sorry, I turned in about 11 last night and just got up.

Did I miss anything?

Seriously, folks, the 'brick wall" that Cori mentioned earlier seems to be firmly in place. I suggest we all save our collective breath.

All she wants to hear is what a Chi-Poo or Chorkie are going to be like. Since nobody is going to be able to predict that - even someone who happens to have one - let's let this one go and move on.

There's nothing to see here.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

*Re: Chi-Poo or Chorkie, Need Help Attention Yorkie/Chihuahua/Poodle Breeders and Owne*

An example of a new breed is the Kyi-Leo, which was developed from the Maltese and the Lhasa Apso. The people who developed this new breed took 30 + years to do so. They wrote a Breed Standard and kept careful records. This breed is now accepted by the UKC and is working towards AKC recognition.

You don't just put two dogs together, give the offspring a cute, fancy name and think you're developing a new breed. It doesn't work that way and the people who breed this way, while they may "love" their dogs, are BYBs.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Between the two I would get a Chi-POO. In my opinion a poodle is a much better choice if you are going to mix 2 breeds than a yorkie. I think yorkies are cute but yappy and high strung from what I have seen.

Good luck with your new puppy hope you post some pictures when you get one


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

RonE said:


> Sorry, I turned in about 11 last night and just got up.
> 
> Did I miss anything?
> 
> ...


judging by the responses of the Original poster that brick wall was in place prior to asking the questions..... ya know it doesn't take much to read a bulletin board such as this one and know what buttons are going to get you alot of attention and create a ruckus... and I truly believe that was the intent here..... 

as there are no such things as chi-poo and chorkies.... then Ron is right.... there is no ability to predict behavior...... that is why people get purebred dogs vs. mixed breed dogs is for their ability to get predictable traits if they need or want them..... 

I personally think its time to stop throwing cookies to the troll. 
s


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

I have an honest to God question. 

To all of you who "advocate" buying a poodle mix, what is so special about them that you couldn't find that in a pure bred? I'm not talking about individual personalities, as each dog is different. I'm talking about when you list, "what I want in a dog", what was so out of this world that a poodle mix is the only option?

I'm in no way against mutts; I own three of them and I love them to death. 

I have no problem with mutts being bred either (Alasken Huskies, some type of Sight Hound...), but those are being bred for a purpose, that no other dog can fill. 

Why should we breed more companion dogs, especially of mixed breed origin, when the "companion dog" sector is already filled to over flowing with shelter dogs (mutts; yes, I know shelter dogs are also purebred) and breeds already in existance, when there is nothing different about the puppies being produced than a funny name and a high price tag? 

It isn't the dogs we have a problem with, it is the breeder. You tell me that these "breeders" of Shepadoodles and Doodleman Pinchers, and Chi-poos, and Boggles, and Puggles, and Bassetdoodles, and SaintBerdoodles and whatever freaking name you can come up with that is mixed with another breeds name, aren't breeding because these dogs are the "in" things right now and they want to make a buck. You show me where there are people trying to get these dogs working, trying to get these dogs in shows, trying to develop a breed club, trying to get them registered with the AKC or UKC or CKC, trying to develop a breed standard, that are horrified by the amount of bad breeders breeding the dog they are trying to get developed, and I may rethink my position. 
But if all you can show me are people who may health test their breeding stock, are breeding multiple mutts, are striving for smallness and nonshedding with no regards to the dogs physical features, who are selling their dogs in the thousands, who breed 10x a year, who's purebred dogs that they are breeding probably have an awful lineage because no reputable breeder would sell their dog to be a breeder in mutt breeding program that wasn't trying to strive for a new breed, and people who are only breeding the dogs because they are popular, then I'm going to be proven right.


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## Dorygirl (Mar 16, 2007)

blackrose, it's a reasonable question...I just liked the look of my cockapoo more than a purebred poodle. She was cuter, with stocky legs and curly fur, brown and white coloring...

I know there is no predicting the temperment of a mutt (personally, I don't think there is with a purebreed either), but mixing the cocker spaniel with the poodle appealed to me. I've known a couple of high-strung poodles, smart but stubborn.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Dorygirl said:


> DogAdvocat, you are too much. It's really not that we refuse to learn. We just don't share your opinion. Your passion is admirable, but there is no need for the nastiness and sarcasm.
> 
> There's a movie called "Gattica" about a future society where all people are genetically engineered to produce perfect specimens. You'd love it.


Actually, no sarcasm or nastiness was intended. I see this as indicative of a larger problem. When experienced people tell you it's a duck, and explain why over and over, then your insistence that it's an elephant, even as it flies away, indicates a refusal on your (generic) part to learn.



DogA said:


> It sure makes ya wonder why there are so many untrained cockapoos in the shelters. Maybe it's not wise to say that a breed is easily trained. Maybe it would be better to ask the dog buyer about their own abilities to train. [/UNQUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I think the reason everyone is going on about health checks is that just because the parents were healthy doesn't mean your dog will be and just because it is a mutt doesn't mean it will have better genes. My aunts bichon has had luxating patella in both back legs, PRA in her left eye, bladder stones, liver shunt and has a heart murmer. And her bichon poodle cross has had the same problems and she also has epilepsy and some serious skin problems as well. She is also alergic to pretty much everything. And the parents of both dogs were health check and genetcally screened yet these two poor dogs still ended up becoming some very sick little ladies. 
I know a lady who had two poodle chihuahua mixes. She loves her dogs because they are tiny, easy to take around and very affectionate. They are pretty cute to. But she told me she was very agry with the breeder of her female because the lady told her the dog would be very mellow, easy to train and not shed. she got a cute little dog that sheds like a saint bernard, is hyper active to the point that I swear she will have a seizure if she doesn't calm down and it took her almost two years to house break her. Now her little male is everything she expected and she got him from the same breeder. He hardly sheds, is very mellow, was a breeze to train and loves everyone and everything. She loves her dogs and never misses a chance to tell people that her dogs are great and everyone should have one. The female is 10 inches tall and weighs 6 pounds and is 3 years old and the male is 8 inches tall and weighs four pounds and is 1.5 year old.
I hope that is what you were looking for. I don't have a chihuahua poodle or a chihuahua yorkie cross but I do know a few. Both of my dogs are mixes and both of them were rescues. I think everyone is telling you to rescue because there are alot of deserving little doggys in shelters out there wanting anew home. Don't be offended, we just have some very opinionated people on this forum, heck I am one of them. And it is a public forum so you should have expected a little bit of resistance. Don't be too mad though, its not worth it. You will get whatever dog you want regardless of what others say, I know this from experience. I just hope you choose right. Good luck!


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

I am sorry, I thought I heard someone say cookies...they better be chocolate chip.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

cockapoos are not a breed....they are a mutt..... now they might be nice mutts... and cute mutts but they are mutts.... not a breed.... they have been around since the fifties and there has been very little movement towards breed recognition in any reputable registration... AKC UKC.... etc etc..... 

so there is that .... 

Now as for temperment in a purebred.... you absolutely can predict the temperments in a purebred dog from a reputable breeder..... that is what makes a purebred a purebred..... they breed true generation after generation and while there may be minor variation.... one golden might be lower key than another, you do get a general overall predictable temperment.... one can see that in my current litter compared to another litter.... by looking at the history of the dogs.... and the parents... I got exactly what I wanted for temperments as I did in my last litter...... because while nurture plays a part.... genetics are also an important factor. 

when the designer dog people start doing health clearances.... stop lying to the general public... and start moving toward breed recognition then we can talk but the fact is that these breeders are being inherently dishonest.... they are charging astronomical amounts of money for puppies with no predictable traits... telling people they are hypo-allergenic..... hybrid vigor.... not doing health clearances.... and they are breeding for pets.... and they are continuing to breed first generation animals which means they are not working towards breed stabilization. 

when I breed my retrievers.... I have four dogs going to working homes..... 4 out of 7 puppies.... because they were bred to do a job..... and that is an important aspect of my breeding program is to breed dogs who are not only beautiful but can do the job they were intended to do. 

so ok I will say it 
cocker spaniel X poodle mixes 
are not a breed 
S


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## ToysHaveMyHeart (May 9, 2007)

Something seemed a little weird about the posts...maybe it's just me. She mentions in the original post that she has been looking within the last month for a dog, looked for three months in the shelters in a following post, and claimed to look for her perfect dog for the last two months. 
I just got my new girl about two weeks ago-and it took me a little over a year. Thanks to petfinder, 1800-save-a-pet.com, classified ads for unwanted dogs (which is extremely depressing to read) and a whole lotta shelters. I'm thinking of writing a small book about my adventure.  
And while I realize that shelter dogs are not for everyone, I would think that it would take roughly the same time if not longer to learn the breed your interested in, read up on what makes a breeder a good breeder, find a reputable breeder and then go though the approval/purchasing process, and finally having the breeder actually hand over the pup.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Shalva said:


> cockapoos are not a breed....they are a mutt..... now they might be nice mutts... and cute mutts but they are mutts.... not a breed.... they have been around since the fifties and there has been very little movement towards breed recognition in any reputable registration... AKC UKC.... etc etc.....
> 
> S


I did not see where anyone said cockapoos were a breed? Just that they are cute And I agree


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

ToysHaveMyHeart said:


> I just got my new girl about two weeks ago-and it took me a little over a year.


Then there's the Plott hound approach.

My wife saw Esther on television on Friday and insisted we drive an hour on Saturday to see her. She thought Esther looked like a nice, mellow dog, so I am certain she was drugged for the TV spot. (The dog, not my wife.)

My wife is a recreational shopper. She likes looking at houses and cars that she has no intention of buying. So nobody was more surprised that she was when I filled out some paperwork at the shelter a hour after I saw my very first Plott hound. While I did that, my son sat outside with Esther on a leash to make sure nobody else got a good look at her.

The following Thursday we brought her home. Friday we had her spayed, wormed and otherwise prepped and Saturday she came home for good.

Then I started reading up on the breed . . .

My selection criteria went like this:


Have at least three legs.
Between 1-year-old and 10.
Between 30 and 100 pounds.
Must be either purebred or mutt.
Male or female.
Swimmer and drip-dry.
Able to convince me that she is happy to see me. (Esther jumped about five feet straight up the first time we saw each other.)
Black or white or something in between. Or some combination.


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## bluesbarby (Apr 10, 2007)

There's a common thread that I've noticed in all these responses regardless of which side you're on. Over and over people have talked about the "untrained rottweillers, untrained bichons, in the shelters etc etc". To me, this is the reason dogs are let go. Not because they come from pet stores, or byb or pure bred breeders or mixed breeders, but because they are untrained. Because the "Owners" don't want to take the time and effort necessary to develop a great dog. Oh, you breeders can say you "screen" your owners but in todays world it's easy to figure out how to get past that roadblock. If they pass any law it should be a requirement that all dog owners take x number of hours of dog training per dog. I'm in my second round of group classes right now and each class starts out full and dwindles by the 5th class. The trainer says that's normal. Most people barely make it thru the puppy classes. Of those who do make it thru (only 3 in my class did) I'm the only one who went on to the intermediate. Of course I also have a private trainer once a week and an agility class once a week starting next week. I did the same with my previous dogs.
To those who wonder about the poodle mixes. Poodles are known for their smarts. They also have other advantages. Riley's mom was half poodle and it shows with him. He's way smarter than my golden ever was or any dog I've ever had. I would have chosen a mini poodle except, well, for their looks. I apologise to anyone who has a poodle, but honestly my DH and DS wouldn't be caught dead with a poodle. Too froo froo. Riley looks like a teddy bear which they can deal with(I was the one who wanted a small dog), especially once they realized what a chick magnet he is. Just my 2 cents.


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## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

That would be great if somehow owners would have to take there dog to training classes. That would probably help the shelter problem a lot. 

As for poodles being froo-froo dogs I know what you mean. Before my dog got cut he looked like any normal dog and after the first time at the groomers my dad started making fun of him and saying he looked like a girl. I felt horrible for my poor dog. My dad must have given him a horrible self esteem after all his mean comments about his poodle cut. 
Poodles are great dogs though. I don't see what anyone can see so apealing about mixing them with every different dog breed out there but obviously some people love it.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

xoxluvablexox said:


> That would be great if somehow owners would have to take there dog to training classed. That would probably help the shelter problem a lot.


And that's just it. Reputable breeders DO require that as part of their contract. Of course they have to word everything properly so it can't be "gotten around", but the contracts can be and are enforced with many reputable breeders. If the contract is broken, the owners can be taken to court. The contract is also in place for spay/neuter if not going to a show home as well as many other stipulations. In most cases, if the contract is broken, the dog must be returned to the breeder by order of the courts.

I know people who don't like being told they must spay and neuter their pet by a certain age and are skeptical of buying from a breeder like that. But in all honesty, if you simply want a pet as a companion, there is no reason they need to be kept intact. Contracts are put in place for a purpose, for the care and well being of the puppy/dog.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

while it is true that a person can get around screening it is not that easy when you have to go through my process..... but aside from that one part of the issue is that most of the people on my puppy list will have waited eleven months by the time they get a puppy..... and while that does not insure that they will go to training classes.... which is in the contract by the way.... it does mean that the person has thought out getting a puppy by the time they get the puppy.... I don't take deposits and the person on my list has been in contact with me and we have been chatting for many many months before I hand them a puppy.... The people who are getting a puppy from me from this litter have been in contact with me since last August/September... these puppies will go home the last week in July.... I wouldn't discount the ability of a breeder to get to know the person getting the puppy and the screening process quite so quickly.... 

nobody who goes to a responsible breeder is an impulse buyer..... they can't be.... and with that... they have gone out of their way to find us... and they don't come to our homes and go home with a puppy.... now they might get through the screening process at the beginning but after 11 mos.... I doubt they would make it that far without me getting an inkling that something is amiss or they dont have the motivation to do what they need to do..... 

and don't think for a second that someone cant sit through a class and come out learning nothing..... I see it in my University Students all the time unfortunately..... 
s


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Sadly, most people don't know that poodles (standard anyway) are anything but "froo froo". Their "poodle cuts" were for a reason. They were water fowl retrievers and their hair was cut to facilitate their swimming in the water while protecting vital organs. The "pom-pom" on the ends of their tails were there so their owners could see them in rough currents, they needed to be soft-mouthed so they didn't destroy the water fowl killed, yet they had to be strong enough to hold a duck, etc. in their mouth when it was injured, not killed. Because of their good temperment poodles usually got to live with the family as well as work for the family, they were not housed separately. this led to them becoming more of a show/family dog as opposed to a working dog but make no mistake, there is nothing foo-foo about a standard poodle! (The breed goes back to the 1600s, at least)--obviously people must see a lot of good qualities in poodles because they appear to be mixing them (I can't say breeding because that is an oxymoron) with anything they can----morbid IMHO


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

> If life gives you crap.....roll in it!!!


 Ok, I just read this in someone's siggy and I just started laughing.  Oh, the things we learn from dogs! ROFLMAO

Now, back onto the subject.



> I apologise to anyone who has a poodle, but honestly my DH and DS wouldn't be caught dead with a poodle. Too froo froo. Riley looks like a teddy bear which they can deal with(I was the one who wanted a small dog), especially once they realized what a chick magnet he is. Just my 2 cents.


 I agree with not liking the looks of Poodles. I'm a bully breed person, and Poodles just don't appeal to me looks-wise. I do think they are great dogs however, especially the Standards. 

And for the person who said they got the poodle mix, it was because they liked his looks (as well as the temperment that they could have ended up with). 

So let's think about this. I'm first attracted to breeds because of how they look. Then when I learn more about their personality, I fall in love. Some dogs (like when I'm scanning through petfinder) I'm not attracted to, but when I read their profile, I fall in love anyways. I can totally agree with liking a dog's looks.

But now let's exaimine this closer. Being of a mixed breed origin, the chance of the poodle mix looking how you want it is I'd say only about a half and half chance.
Take Chloe for example, my Collie/Aussie cross. She looks most like a Collie. Has Collie markings, has Collie ears, has an almost Collie face, has a Collie tail, is on the smaller side.....now let's take a look at her brother. Her brother (named Bandit) was a large, buff dog. He was white with brown plotches and looked almost like a Saint Bernard markings-wise. He also was the total opposite with his temperment than how she was, and he had a thicker coat.
Being a mixed breed, the looks aren't consistent. Take a look at all of the poodle mixes on dogbreedinfo.com. Half of them look one way, and then the others look completely different. 

Now. Take a look at different purebred dogs. Poodles aren't the only small breed dog that doesn't shed and is friendly and trainable. And there are plenty of purebreds that have those qualities and also looke like little teddy bears.  
A few breeds that come to mind are Maltese, Bichon Frise, Bolognese, Border Terrier (maybe not so much the "little bear" part, but oh well), Cairn Terrier, Coton De Tulear, Havanese, Mini Schnauzer (again, not the little bear. lol), Shih Tzu, West Highland White Terrier, Tibetan Terrier, and Yorkies.

Ha, and look at this breed. It looks almost like a Cockapoo:
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/spanishwaterdogphotos.htm (scroll down to see some puppy pictures.  ) 
They're small, healthy, trainable, active, friendly, goofy, extreamly low shedding, looks like a teddy bear....and a purebred dog to boot, no "doodle" or "poo" involved. Who knew?

So again, we go back to my previous statement....why start mixing breeds and selling them when there are already purebreds that fit the bill both looks wise and personality wise? And why start mixing breeds on purpose when there are mix breeds dying in shelters?

Ha, and I got a kick out of this as well. Puggles (a Pug/Beagle mix) were trying to be passed off as low shedding. Hmmmm...let's think. You mix a Pug (an extreamly heavy shedder) with a Beagle (another extreamly heavy shedder) and you magically get a low shedding dog?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think the OP has left the building.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

> Ha, and I got a kick out of this as well. Puggles (a Pug/Beagle mix) were trying to be passed off as low shedding. Hmmmm...let's think. You mix a Pug (an extreamly heavy shedder) with a Beagle (another extreamly heavy shedder) and you magically get a low shedding dog?


Not to mention the varience in size and temperment! Personally, I think Puggles are ugly when they hit maturity though they are extreamly cute as puppies.


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## Dieselsmama (Apr 1, 2007)

bluesbarby said:


> I would have chosen a mini poodle except, well, for their looks. I apologise to anyone who has a poodle, but honestly my DH and DS wouldn't be caught dead with a poodle. Too froo froo.


LOL, reminds me of my dad when he brought home his first Standard poodle, he stage whispered " We got him at the pound and we think he may have some poodle in him " Now he never own anything else!! Personally I think they are smart, agile and beautiful dogs, but My Ella Bella is where it's at for me


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

bluesbarby said:


> I apologise to anyone who has a poodle, but honestly my DH and DS wouldn't be caught dead with a poodle. Too froo froo.


Yes, poodles are very froo froo...

PoodlesinWWII


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Poodles' froofroo-ness (froofroo-osity?) is directly related to how you clip them. Kept short all over, they look very much like wire-coated pointer types, or should- square, athletic, with sweet faces and great athleticism.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

There is a guy at the dog park who fancies himself a breed expert. He was looking at a friend's American Water Spaniel (the state dog of Wisconsin, BTW) and said, "That's a nice-looking poodle you've got there." 

Another friend was laughing at that until the guy looked at HIS Shar-pei and said, "And that's the friendliest bulldog I've ever seen."

The Shar-Pei owner went and got one of those window tags that says, "I love my poodle." put it in the Water Spaniel owners car.

You can probably imagine what happened the next weekend.

(This thread was going nowhere, so I don't feel too guilty veering off-topic.)

I've had limited experience with miniature and toy poodles, but the standards I've know have been great dogs.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Yes, poodles are very froo froo...
> 
> PoodlesinWWII


In my opinion no matter how you cut a poodle they look very froo froo. I like froo froo though but if I was single and interesed in finding a man I think I would run if I saw him with a poodle. I do not care for froo froo men Lol.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Oh how stereotypical you are all being---and all pit bulls attack and all little dogs yap all day, all huskies are aggressive---please ...everyone should appreciate a dog breed for what they were properly bred to accompish, coats and cuts did have a specific reason and not what some have created. And stop poodle bashing, it is not nice--Oh, by the way, my dog could kick your dogs butt in a NY instant ............(although he would chose not to, he is above that type of behaviour) 

Thank you Curbside for that great link to poodles in WWII--By the way, my dad was in the 4th marine division in WW2--he fought in the pacific, Saipan, Tinian, Guam, Marianis Islands---they had the dobies there, he said they were dogs he didn't even like walking by, they were tough and not very nice--lol


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## Dorygirl (Mar 16, 2007)

> (This thread was going nowhere, so I don't feel too guilty veering off-topic.)


LOL It is kind of all over the place...So I shall continue this random discussion ~

Ginny, you used the word "stereotypical" and I understand your point. But I'm confused about something. 
When a dog does fit a stereotype, like a yappy Yorkie, is that more a result of bad breeding or bad training? Can you breed the yappiness out of a Yorkie? 
To some extent, we should be able to stereotype dogs or else the whole system is useless. If I look up a Golden Retriever to see if it's the right dog for me, I see that they are loving, gentle, energetic family dogs.
Under "Akita" it describes a loyal dog, not so good with young children, good guard dog, intelligent. A Jack Russell is incredibly energetic, with a tendency toward aggressiveness and doesn't get along well with other pets.
That is all helpful information for a prospective dog owner, but how much can we really depend on those stereotypes?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Interesting point, Dorygirl.

What, exactly, is the difference between a breed trait and a stereotype?

I could say Esther is a stereotypical Plott hound or I could say she is living up to her heritage.

Maybe a stereotype is when when lump a whole bunch of breeds based on mostly superficial characteristics, e.g. all small dogs are yappy. (My mother's shi-tzu is quieter than Esther.)


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

stereotype: a set form; convention. a simplified and standardized conception or image invested with special meaning and held in common by members of a group.

characteristic: a distinguishing feature or quality.

I agree with RonE on his explanation on the difference of the two, there is a difference and I think it is pretty obvious. And you are right, Dory there are a lot of dogs that may fit a specific stereotype but the yappie yorkie is not a breed characteristic--it is not a distinguishing feature.


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## bluesbarby (Apr 10, 2007)

I have to admit there are alot of small pure bred dogs that can look like teddy bears. However, the mix I got really turned out well. His hair doesn't grow as fast as most Shih Tzu's. It's thin with only a slight kink and very silky. Will actually go straight when I first blow dry. Bichons and poodles have a very tight almost kinky hair. Riley is super easy to groom. He doesn't shed and only needs a comb out once a week or if he gets into any burrs. I'm not sure what this particular breeder does but he looks exactly like my friends dog only different coloring. She's had hers for 5 years. And the toy poodle in him makes him smaller I guess than a standard Shih Tzu or Bichon. I like to take Riley with me as much as I can and that means holding him when I go into different stores, bank etc. He weighs 8 pounds now and will probably get up to 10, maybe. That 8 pound difference is huge. He doesn't have the flat nose like Shih Tzu's have which is a plus and his eyes are wider and not bulgy like a Bichon. Even my vet said he got all the good traits from the different breeds. It took me 2 years to get him. So this wasn't done on a whim.
Ginny. I happen to like poodles. I grew up with them (standard size). Your Riley is a beautiful dog.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Dorygirl said:


> LOL It is kind of all over the place...So I shall continue this random discussion ~
> 
> Ginny, you used the word "stereotypical" and I understand your point. But I'm confused about something.
> When a dog does fit a stereotype, like a yappy Yorkie, is that more a result of bad breeding or bad training? Can you breed the yappiness out of a Yorkie?


To answer the yappy yorkie, It's generally lack of training and leadership. Behavior is 30% breeding and 70% training and socialization (or lack there of). Of course if there are genetic problems (such as hypthyroidism, epilepsy) they play into the breeding end and change the balance.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> Oh how stereotypical you are all being---and all pit bulls attack and all little dogs yap all day, all huskies are aggressive---please ...everyone should appreciate a dog breed for what they were properly bred to accompish, coats and cuts did have a specific reason and not what some have created. And stop poodle bashing, it is not nice--Oh, by the way, my dog could kick your dogs butt in a NY instant ............(although he would chose not to, he is above that type of behaviour)


Who are you directing this at? Me? I did say I like froo froo dogs and I bet just about anyones dog can kick my laid back wimpy froo froo dogs butt, LoL. I am not bashing poodles just giving my take on them you know the way I see it and I do like them.


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## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

congrats peace on 100th reply!


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

bluesbarby said:


> I have to admit there are alot of small pure bred dogs that can look like teddy bears. However, the mix I got really turned out well. His hair doesn't grow as fast as most Shih Tzu's. It's thin with only a slight kink and very silky. Will actually go straight when I first blow dry. *Bichons and poodles have a very tight almost kinky hair.* Riley is super easy to groom. He doesn't shed and only needs a comb out once a week or if he gets into any burrs. I'm not sure what this particular breeder does but he looks exactly like my friends dog only different coloring. She's had hers for 5 years. And the toy poodle in him makes him smaller I guess than a standard Shih Tzu or Bichon. I like to take Riley with me as much as I can and that means holding him when I go into different stores, bank etc. He weighs 8 pounds now and will probably get up to 10, maybe. That 8 pound difference is huge. He doesn't have the flat nose like Shih Tzu's have which is a plus and his eyes are wider and *not bulgy like a Bichon*. Even my vet said he got all the good traits from the different breeds. It took me 2 years to get him. So this wasn't done on a whim.
> Ginny. I happen to like poodles. I grew up with them (standard size). Your Riley is a beautiful dog.


The breed standard for Bichon Frise includes:

Well balanced dog of smart appearance, closely coated with handsome plume carried over the back. Natural white coat curling loosely. <--- note, not kinky

Dark, round with black eye rims, surrounded by dark haloes, consisting of well pigmented skin. Forward-looking, fairly large but not almond-shaped, neither obliquely set nor protruding. Showing no white when looking forward. Alert, full of expression. <---- note, not protruding, ie not bulgy


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Since we're all carrying on our own conversations....LOL 



> I have to admit there are alot of small pure bred dogs that can look like teddy bears. However, the mix I got really turned out well. His hair doesn't grow as fast as most Shih Tzu's. It's thin with only a slight kink and very silky. Will actually go straight when I first blow dry. Bichons and poodles have a very tight almost kinky hair. Riley is super easy to groom. He doesn't shed and only needs a comb out once a week or if he gets into any burrs. I'm not sure what this particular breeder does but he looks exactly like my friends dog only different coloring. She's had hers for 5 years. And the toy poodle in him makes him smaller I guess than a standard Shih Tzu or Bichon. I like to take Riley with me as much as I can and that means holding him when I go into different stores, bank etc. He weighs 8 pounds now and will probably get up to 10, maybe. That 8 pound difference is huge. He doesn't have the flat nose like Shih Tzu's have which is a plus and his eyes are wider and not bulgy like a Bichon.


 Sounds like a Maltese or a Havanese. (And, thought I'd say, Bichon's don't have bulgy eyes, ShihTzus do.


> Well balanced dog of smart appearance, closely coated with handsome plume carried over the back. Natural white coat curling loosely. <--- note, not kinky


 But when you groom a Bichon, it still needs to be blow dried completely by hand because if it air dries, its coat turns into a bunch of tight curls. I think that is what she ment.)

He sounds like a great little doggy, though. But I still can't find any distinct traits about him that make him so totally different than, say, a Maltese, that his particular mix needs to be bred. 
I'm not saying he isn't a great dog, my Lab/Rottie? mix is a great dog, but he doesn't have enough distinct characteristics to merit a whole new breed being created. If I wanted another dog like him, I'd probably get a male Rottie. Blackie looks almost pure Lab, but his personality is so much like a Rottie it is scary. I call him my Rottie in a Lab's body. 

And again, having a mixed breed sets you up for a gamble. What if you had gotten all of the worst traits?
Rose is a prime example of this. If you just told me what breeds were in her, I'd expect her to be an active, intelligent, trainable, dominant, loving, heavy shedding, protective, large, assertive dog who loves to work with cattle. (She's a Lab/ACD/GSD/Rottie? mix) But Rose in person is an active, intelligent, stubborn, subbmissive, extreamly reserved, mild shedding, wussy, medium sized, timid dog who loves to hunt mice. That's two hits out of ten, 20%; not very predictable. Another puppy from the same litter, George, was 100% of the predicted characteristics. If I had gotten Rose for a protective dog to do obedience with, I would have been sorely dissapointed. 



To the "froo-froo" dog disscussion (LOL):

I don't think froo-froo being used here was ment to be a derogatory term. lol That is like saying a Pittie or a Boxer is "bully" and a Greyhound or a Whippet is "skinny". 
I say froo froo dog to mean any fluffy/curly coat type on a dog. I don't think they ment the poodle's temperment was "froo froo", just the curly coat.

I say prissy when I'm talking about a dogs' temperment. LOL


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

iwantmypup said:


> congrats peace on 100th reply!


Thanks, but I am deeply sad to say it t'was not I who made the 100th reply I am not worthy of your kind words.

And the award goes toooo..........Carla!!!Woot Woot,,the floor is yours, LoL


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

LOL, thanks!


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

blackrose said:


> But when you groom a Bichon, it still needs to be blow dried completely by hand because if it air dries, its coat turns into a bunch of tight curls. I think that is what she ment.)


Except that's not true. They aren't tight curls. It curls, yes, but it's not tight curls or kinky.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

peace36 said:


> Who are you directing this at? Me? I did say I like froo froo dogs and I bet just about anyones dog can kick my laid back wimpy froo froo dogs butt, LoL. I am not bashing poodles just giving my take on them you know the way I see it and I do like them.


I was winking, I was winking--and it really wasn't directed at anyone in particular--lolol


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I don't like poodles cut in the traditional poodle cut. I do realize they were cut like that for a reason (to protect joints, etc from cold water when retreiving water fowl etc) but I don't like the clip. I have yet to meet a poodle I didn't like (ok well thats not true my friend neighbour has a standard poodle that is an absolute beeeeeotch! Oh and the standard that attacked me and my old dog Bess...another beeeeeotch!) but I just don't really want a poodle, they are not for me. I like spaniels, collies and rotties personally. And as for small dogs, I have always loved border terriers and norfolk and norwich terriers.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> I was winking, I was winking--and it really wasn't directed at anyone in particular--lolol


 oh ok...I get it


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

bluesbarby said:


> Shih Tzu or Bichon. I like to take Riley with me as much as I can and that means holding him when I go into different stores, bank etc.


Why do you feel like you have the right to do this? Is Riley a SD?

Sorry, but people with small pet dogs who take them in public annoy me. Just because your pet is small, doesn't mean it is allowed to go any place that larger pets aren't.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I agree Dogstar, I have seen many people put their little pets in a bag and walk them thru stores yet I bring my Riley (large breed) and they look at me with four head like "what am I doing"---I have even been asked to leave (on a side note he is a sweet absolutely non-aggressive dog that loves to be pet and hugged and kissed but his size creats a stigma)


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

*Re: Chi-Poo or Chorkie, Need Help Attention Yorkie/Chihuahua/Poodle Breeders and Owne*



> As to the toy poodle that is a big interest of mine also, I have looked a great deal into 1 also. Are they small enough to litter train without having to pay $1000 for a tea-cup? Looking forward to more opinoins again thanks everybody for posting.


Yes, you can train a Toy Poodle to use a litterbox. There is NO SUCH THING as a "tea-cup" Poodle. There are Toy Poodles, Miniature Poodles, and Standard Poodles. The very term *"Tea-Cup" is a red flag that screams BYB-in-it-for-the-money and/or Puppy Mill.* Greedy, unethical breeders use this term, gush over how "rare" or special they are, when the fact is, the dog is undersized, and could have serious health issues, especially when deliberatly bred to obtain smaller than breed standard. You're going to pay at least $1,000 for a Toy Poodle from a reputable, ethical breeder who does health testing and breeds not only for conformation, but temperament and health.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Ginny01OT said:


> I agree Dogstar, I have seen many people put their little pets in a bag and walk them thru stores yet I bring my Riley (large breed) and they look at me with four head like "what am I doing"---I have even been asked to leave (on a side note he is a sweet absolutely non-aggressive dog that loves to be pet and hugged and kissed but his size creats a stigma)


My big thing is that I have a service dog in training. It's a SERIOUS nuisance when people allow their ill-trained pet dogs to run up and bark at him, firstly, and secondly, they make problems for service dog users with small dogs, because store employees get in the habit of assuming all small dogs are NOT service dogs.


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## Ceph (May 22, 2007)

wow, this is a long thread - I got up to page six, saw something I wanted to post about and skipped to page ten and skimmed through...so I am sorry if what I am saying is off topic by this point or out of left field.

First thing I wanted to adress was looking for a specific mix in the shelter - I did that too - but I was looking for a larger kind of dog - a Shepherd Husky mix...I didnt find one in my direct area and ended up driving three hours to a remote location south of Washington...and I ended up with the best dog any person could ask for....My mothers Mutt I found by driving home from drill...I randomly stopped at a petsmart, saw DeeDee and there was the perfect dog. If you are willing to drive a fair distance than you can probably find just about any dog you want 

Another thing I saw that kind of bothered me...breeding to better the breed. I can understand breeding to better the breed of a non-breed - my own breed has alot of problems and is in the process of seperating from the parent breed - but we have a studbook, we have a set standard, we have genetic testing out the wazoo and we have parent clubs. You cant really have a breed without this somewhere. Have you ever seen the Australian Labradoodle Association - they are doing this right - they have a parent club, a breed history, a stud book, they require testing....they are trying to make a breed and are going about it the right way....no one has done that here in the states. ( http://www.laa.org.au/ )

As far as poodles being frofro - a poodle team finished the Ididarod (I know that is spelled wrong)...they finished very slowly...but they did alot better than some of the northern breed teams (who didnt finish at all)....my opinion of the breed jumped after I saw that.

~Cate


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Ceph said:


> As far as poodles being frofro - a poodle team finished the Ididarod


I see a Disney movie in the making - similar to the one about the Jamaican bobsled team.


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

Yah Mon!!!!!!


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## dansamy (May 15, 2007)

RonE said:


> I see a Disney movie in the making - similar to the one about the Jamaican bobsled team.


<3 Disney and feel-good overcoming films. Refreshing in the face of hack and slash and glitzy special effects films.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I think the one about the Jamaican bobsled team was called _Cool Runnings_ (with John Candy as the coach?)

The poodle Iditarod team movie could be called _Cool Runnings II_.


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## bluesbarby (Apr 10, 2007)

Well balanced dog of smart appearance, closely coated with handsome plume carried over the back. Natural white coat curling loosely. <--- note, not kinky

Except for at shows, all the bichons I've ever seen have had curly kinky hair. You have to work to get that loose curl. They require alot of grooming.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

bluesbarby said:


> Well balanced dog of smart appearance, closely coated with handsome plume carried over the back. Natural white coat curling loosely. <--- note, not kinky
> 
> Except for at shows, all the bichons I've ever seen have had curly kinky hair. You have to work to get that loose curl. They require alot of grooming.


Yes, Bichon Frise do require a lot of grooming, but you do not have to "work" to get a loose curl. In fact, that's not even possible. The "work" gets you straight hair through back combing, not looser curls. Maybe what you've seen is Bichon mixes? I've done Bichon rescue for almost 20 years, and I have yet to see a kinky haired dog, or one with "tight" curls.


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## Coriona_Vanleigh (Jun 5, 2007)

Wow okay I haven't been online in awhile...You guys have lost me, what are we talking about, poodles,bichons? I'm lost..lol. Well I think they are both adorable very sweet, and hey I'm a sucker for "prissy" dogs, though the standards I think are very gorgeous nothing prissy about them, quite elegant. And bichons grew up with a little male, and he acted very girly, lol he was about as vicious as a bunny slipper heh heh.


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

Coriona_Vanleigh said:


> Wow okay I haven't been online in awhile...You guys have lost me, what are we talking about, poodles,bichons? I'm lost..lol. Well I think they are both adorable very sweet, and hey I'm a sucker for "prissy" dogs, though the standards I think are very gorgeous nothing prissy about them, quite elegant. And bichons grew up with a little male, and he acted very girly, lol he was about as vicious as a bunny slipper heh heh.


 The conversation took some interesting turns (like some conversations do), so now we are talking about why you need to buy a designer dog when the characteristics that you have a chance of getting with the mutt can be found in another purebred.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

actually this thread is completely off course and needs to slide back down to the bottom. I'm locking it......


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