# Small breeds with docked tails? - list



## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Not wanting to derail another thread, I was just thinking about this topic.

The five Toy Poodles that I know/have known have all had their tails. I just read it mentioned that for show, Toy and Miniature Poodles have docked tails. I understand Yorkshire Terriers do as well.

I was kind of surprised by this because I've not really paid attention and noticed tails on the ones I see out and about, and I was also surprised that these are breeds that are not bred for working purposes but are still docked.

What other non-working breeds are commonly docked (I guess this wouldn't include the UK where it is illegal)? 

To go on from that, if they are a traditionally docked breed, for those that show, is it acceptable - or do they have much of a chance of placing - if they are shown in an un-docked tail? (I'm thinking about the what breeders of these breeds might have to mull over before making their decision).

SOB


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## SophieOwner (Sep 20, 2008)

Jack russel terrier, parson terrier and fox terriers often get docked. Given the choice I'd dock....I've known multiple "pet" jack/fox/parson terriers that broke their tails. They were all tenatious dogs and had tried to "go to ground" and had found themselves injured. One was the owner's fault becuase he tried to grab the dog's tail as he flailed. Another had something to do with a bycycle


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

My yorkie had his tail docked. My JRT also has her tail docked, while my dogs obviously are not working dogs, my understanding is that these breeds are docked because the tail was used as a "handle" when they go chasing critters into holes???


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## nainai0585 (Jan 30, 2010)

my JRT is not docked and I love her tail. IMO docking a pet is only cosmetic surgery and should not be done. I feel its on the same playing field as circumcision....its just for looks with no other reasoning behind it.


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## railNtrailcowgrl (Jul 24, 2008)

I wouldn't count JRT or Rat Terriers in this category because most of them are still bred for working or earth dog trials. Parsons could be in this category because they split from the JRTCA in order to become 'show dogs' and receive AKC recognition. I would say that 80-85% of the terrier group are docked. In the toy group the Brussels Griffon, Min. Pin, Silky Terrier, Yorkshire Terrier, Toy Fox Terrier, and Poodle. Keep in mind the terriers originally had a purpose, hunting varmints, and Poodles were originally retrievers/gun dogs so I'm sure they continued to dock out or tradition.


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## SophieOwner (Sep 20, 2008)

nainai0585 said:


> my JRT is not docked and I love her tail. IMO docking a pet is only cosmetic surgery and should not be done. I feel its on the same playing field as circumcision....its just for looks with no other reasoning behind it.


Maybe some people do, but again, I've known anti dock people who left their JRT's long and it broke. And on an adult a dog's tail amputation is such a horrible thing. 

Now, I've had german shepard and other mutts with tails that practically broke me ( once my little brother got a bloody nose from the german shepard's wagging tail) I'm not anti-tail. But their tails are strong enough to withstand things. 

But you're right if a dog is STRICTLY a housepet and will never do any sort of training and won't be outside and getting into the "going to ground" behavior than it is just cosmetic. But most JRT's try to go to ground regardless of what their owners feel about it.


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## Tankstar (Dec 30, 2006)

Australian Silky
Glen of Imaal Terrier
Miniature Pinscher
Miniature Poodle
Miniature Schnauzer
Norfolk Terrier
Norwich Terrier
Patterdale Terrier
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Schipperke
Sealyham Terrier
Swedish vallhund
Welsh Terrier
Wire-haired Fox Terrier
Yorkshire Terrier



SophieOwner said:


> But you're right if a dog is STRICTLY a housepet and will never do any sort of training and won't be outside and getting into the "going to ground" behavior than it is just cosmetic. But most JRT's try to go to ground regardless of what their owners feel about it.


And a breeder cant just "not dock" any of the litter, becuase you never know at 3 days and younger who is a show prospect or working dog prospect, who is going to what home ect.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, I was once asked why I docked my dogs' tails. I just looked at the person like they had two heads. 

I'll try to think of more. Tankstar covered the ones I thought of...


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

For some reason, Scrappy's tail was docked. He's a mixed breed so I don't understand it!


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

I remember reading somewhere that terriers are docked to that their tails are easy to grab and pull them backwards out of a hole without injuring them. Is this true?


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## railNtrailcowgrl (Jul 24, 2008)

KaseyT said:


> I remember reading somewhere that terriers are docked to that their tails are easy to grab and pull them backwards out of a hole without injuring them. Is this true?


Yes, that is the purpose of docking a terrier tail. If you put your hands on Pebbles or Morgan their tails fit perfectly into the palm of your hand. There is also less worry about bending over or dislocating the more fragile tip/tail end.

From the JRTCA site:


> Should be set rather high, carried gaily and in proportion to body length, usually about four inches long, providing a good hand-hold.


Jod Dog, sometimes people breeding mixes dock to the parent's standard. For example, Pebs was docked to the JRT standard because it fit her body type better than the RT standard. I'm sure Scrappy was docked hoping that he would look more Schnauzer.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Jod-dog said:


> For some reason, Scrappy's tail was docked. He's a mixed breed so I don't understand it!


are you sure he's docked? he could be a natural bob.
Nevermind, I just read in your sig he's a poodle schnauzer mix, both of those breeds are docked so the breeders probably just did it to the puppies to conform to the parents


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Both of the Rottie/Lab mixes that we got from the shelter were docked. Neither looked much like a real Rottweiler, but I guess their 'breeder' figured docking them would make them look more like one (at least as puppies to the untrained eye).


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## keely'smomma (Aug 4, 2008)

I gotta tell ya, I wouldnt want a yorke with an undocked tail. 
Of course If i met one in a ashelter that I fell in love with and was a good dog for me, then yes, I would adopt it if it was the right match. But if im going to a breeder, well i expect the dogs tail to be docked. If it wasnt then i probably wouldnt buy from that breeder. 

Why not dock the tail? I can gaurantee you, that if my yorkie didnt have a docked tail, she would have injured it LONG ago. She might not be trained to hunt, but she still does it on her own .. lol (long story) .. And it doesnt hurt them if its done at the proper age. 
I like the look of yorkies with docked tails. I think its a big part of them. 

So what if its done for cosmetic reasons? MANY things are done to dogs these days . BC's are bred for a fluffy coat instead of working ability. GSD's are bred for an overly arched (And IMO unattractive) Back, which is lmiting its working ability. 

I like my dogs docked tail, and im proud of it.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

American and English Cockers should be added to the list.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

> Jod Dog, sometimes people breeding mixes dock to the parent's standard. For example, Pebs was docked to the JRT standard because it fit her body type better than the RT standard. I'm sure Scrappy was docked hoping that he would look more Schnauzer.


If you look at the post Scrappy Dog in the pictures forum, he looks more Schnauzer with his cut!

Oh, well, I wouldn't have docked it, but someone did--and my DD thinks it's the cutest thing! LOL


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## keely'smomma (Aug 4, 2008)

Nothing like coming home to a little nub wagging back and forth a mile a minute!

ETA: Dont bostons and frenchies have docked tails?


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

keely'smomma said:


> Nothing like coming home to a little nub wagging back and forth a mile a minute!
> 
> ETA: Dont bostons and frenchies have docked tails?


nope bostons, frenchies, and english bulldogs all have natural short corkscrew tails that they breed true for. It's not possible to breed true to a bob tail tho because it's a lethal dominant trait in it's homozygous state.

clarification,
corkscrew tails CAN breed true because they are recessive non lethal, Bob tails can't breed true because they are lethal dominant in their homozygous state.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I believe most people with small docked dogs don't know their dogs are docked....I've had Yorkie owners argue with me about it, LOL. Personally, I didn't know that Poodles are commonly docked until my uncle got an undocked Poodle. I sure felt dumb about that one  .


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## jinnyretr0 (Oct 13, 2009)

Ella is a little mix with a docked dail, although it kind of confounds me. We think she is a terrier cross, but if she was docked according to terrier standards, then she should have more of a terrier length docked tail, one that fits in your hand (just like railNtrail said) but Ella's dock is a weird bob length , its really more of a stubby piece of flesh. strange.


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## Jod-dog (Mar 28, 2010)

jinnyretr0 said:


> Ella is a little mix with a docked dail, although it kind of confounds me. We think she is a terrier cross, but if she was docked according to terrier standards, then she should have more of a terrier length docked tail, one that fits in your hand (just like railNtrail said) but Ella's dock is a weird bob length , its really more of a stubby piece of flesh. strange.


Scrappy's tail is so short that it's too small for my DD's hand to fit on--and she is 4--although, she sure tries! LOL I think it's about 2 inches?


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

English toy spaniels are docked. You can also dock a Cavalier if you wish,but you can't remove more than 1/3 of the tail.


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## railNtrailcowgrl (Jul 24, 2008)

jinnyretr0 said:


> Ella is a little mix with a docked dail, although it kind of confounds me. We think she is a terrier cross, but if she was docked according to terrier standards, then she should have more of a terrier length docked tail, one that fits in your hand (just like railNtrail said) but Ella's dock is a weird bob length , its really more of a stubby piece of flesh. strange.


Could she be part rat terrier? I was looking at the RTCA site for a breeder the other day and 'standard' can be 2-3 vertebra but not required.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Here's a list of all the AKC breeds that allow docking

*Sporting:*
Boykin Spaniel
Brittany
Clumber Spaniel
Cocker Spaniel
English Cocker Spaniel
English Springer Spaniel
Field Spaniel
German Shorthaired Pointer
German Wirehaired Pointer
Spinone Italiano
Sussex Spaniel
Vizsla
Weimaraner
Welsh Springer Spaniel
Wirehaired Pointing Griffon

*Hound*
_none_

*Working*
Black Russian Terrier
Boxer
Doberman Pinscher
German Pinscher
Giant Schnauzer
Rottweiler
Standard Schnauzer

*Terrier*
Airedale Terrier
Australian Terrier
Border Terrier
Cairn Terrier 
Glen of Imaal Terrier
Irish Terrier
Kerry Blue Terrier
Lakeland Terrier
Miniature Schnauzer
Norfolk Terrier
Norwich Terrier
Parson Russell Terrier
Scottish Terrier
Sealyham Terrier
Smooth Fox Terrier
Soft Coated
Wheaten Terrier
Welsh Terrier
West Highland White Terrier
Wire Fox Terrier

*Toy*
Affenpinscher
Brussels Griffon
Cavalier King Charles Spaniel
English Toy Spaniel
Miniature Pinscher
Toy Poodle
Silky Terrier
Toy Fox Terrier
Yorkshire Terrier

*Non-Sporting*
Minature Poodle
Standard Poodle
Schipperke

*Herding*
Australian Shepherd
Bouvier des Flandres
Old English Sheepdog
Pembroke Welsh Corgi
Polish Lowland
Pyrenean Shepherd
Swedish Vallhund

*Miscellaneous Class*
Cane Corso
Russell Terrier


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Thanks Animalcraker. What a thorough list. I'm gonna save it for referencing in the future.

SOB


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

spanielorbust said:


> To go on from that, if they are a traditionally docked breed, for those that show, is it acceptable - or do they have much of a chance of placing - if they are shown in an un-docked tail? (I'm thinking about the what breeders of these breeds might have to mull over before making their decision).


Usually if they aren't docked then you have a better cahnce of being laughed out of the ring then you do getting a ribbon. However it does depend on the breed, breed club, and judge. Some standards allow for both docked and natural tails. The breed clubs are incharge of judges education, so depending on how important they emphasize the tail docking, the judge may allow a natural tail to go thru. There's quite a few different types of judges out there. Intenational judges tend to judge according to their home contries standards, even thought they're supposed to judge to the show regisitries standard. Breeder Judges would know if a natural tail is allowed, and how much emphais should be put on a docked tail. All Breed judges don't typically know the exact details of every breed they judge and tend to put up the popular of generic looking dogs. If you played your cards right you might be able to pass a stelar looking dog thru with a natural tail, but the chances of you doing so are slim.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Does anyone actually dock cavaliers? I don't think I've ever seen one docked.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Laurelin said:


> Does anyone actually dock cavaliers? I don't think I've ever seen one docked.


I've only ever seen 2 docked cavaliers and I don't know what their background was as to why they were docked. But the standard does allow for it if you wish to do so.


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## ADA (Dec 5, 2009)

What is an English Toy Spaniel? We don't have them in England!


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## ADA (Dec 5, 2009)

On checking through a good few of the AKC breed standards they can be seen to be slightly ambiguous about tail docking implying that undocked versions can be shown. The Boxer was one of note that claimed an undocked dog was a "fault". 
No fault of the unfortunate dogs!
http://www.akc.org/breeds/breeds_a.cfm
To all those who claim the "likelihood " of tail injury - research shows that gundogs suffer a much higher incidence of lameness than they ever do from tail injury(no-one suggests removing a leg!) If a dog is placed in dangerous terrain (such as near cliff edges, barbed wire) then its welfare is being compromised. 
In UK cropping was banned by the Kennel Club early last century (although it was not illegal but because breeders couldn't show cropped dogs the practice died out) Docked dogs cannot be shown at shows where the public pay an entrance fee except to demonstrate their working ability.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Ada, in the USA the King Charles Spaniel is called the English Toy Spaniel.

It kinda makes me crazy that the name was changed for North America, but that is what it is.

SOB


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