# Can Dogs See Ghosts?



## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

Hi all, I've been doing some reading about this, so thought I would come to a place with lots of dog owners to see if they'd had any similar experiences.

Have a quick read and let me know your thoughts:

http://hubpages.com/_1yze1gg3p11lr/hub/Can-Dogs-See-Ghosts

Many Thanks.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Here's a story I've told here before. My background is in science and I'm not a particularly superstitious person.

Years ago, I would take our big black lab to the dog park first thing every morning before I went to work. I didn't want him running on a full stomach, so his breakfast was always waiting for him in the basement family room when I brought him home, and he would charge it eagerly.

One morning, we came home and he started down the stairs to his breakfast, but stopped about halfway down. His fur went up and he actually backed up the stairs (which I would have guessed was impossible.) He made a low growl, unlike anything I've heard before or since. This was not, BTW, a nervous or fearful dog.

I was afraid there might be someone downstairs that shouldn't be, but that wasn't the reaction I would expect from that dog when encountering a human threat. I explored the basement, a little nervously, and there was nothing there - unless you count my mother-in-law's ashes in an urn on a shelf, awaiting burial. They had recently arrived from Denver, but that's another story.

My two children had each experienced odd things in that basement since my MIL had arrived in that urn, but I was inclined to dismiss them as young, overactive imaginations. I don't believe dogs have imaginations, so that wasn't so easy to dismiss.

He actually skipped breakfast altogether until I returned that evening and went downstairs with him.


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## LuvmyRotti (Oct 26, 2007)

I was sitting on the bed watching tv and Quinn was laying down at my feet. Out of know where, he jumped up liked a scared rabbit and ran out of the room. Literally 2 minutes later I hear Cartman running down the hall, into my room only to stop dead in his tracks when he entered my room (normally he would jump on the bed) turned around and ran out. What the heck? Should I be running out too?

Several times (in this house) Quinn and my previous dog Jake would be sleeping/laying on the floor and do what Quinn did on my bed. Jump up like something scared them, and sheepishly run to another spot. They seemed scared. My hushand has witnessed this - and we both agree this is odd, and always said I wonder if they see/feel something we don't. I'm not close minded to these things - but still question what it is, especially since 2 dogs have done this. Cartman has only done this twice that I have seen.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Ghosts don't exist. There's no way a dog can see or detect something that doesn't exist any more than we can.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

Very Very interesting accounts, thank you both so much for sharing, there definitely seems to be something to this. I suggested to a lady who visited my page to try and take a few pictures of where the dogs were looking, she replied a few days later shocked that the picture appeared to contain some kind of 'orbs', I'm hoping she'll post the pic and drop me a link to it.

It does seem like very odd behavior and as Ron said of his dog 'This was not, BTW, a nervous or fearful dog.'

I've never seen a ghost, but this is the closest I've come to seeing them (through my dog). 

Thanks again. =)


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I had one of those moment, whee if I were the least bit inclined to believe in ghosts, whould have nailed the lid shut on the topic for me. I was working in a closed (old) nursing home, and my Rottie alerted to the sounds of footsteps and moving furniture on the floor above us--for a few minutes. He wasn't growling or raising hackles, but super alert. More like he was going to greet a "friendly". 

We went to investigate and he looked in the rooms the noise originated from. He didn't sniff around; he just looked around. We checked out the entire building and found nothing out of place, and no point of entry or exit where any intruder(s) could have passed without leaving evidence of their presence. Mack's reaction to those noises were completely out of character for him. They were never seen before that day, nor after it.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

hulkamaniac said:


> Ghosts don't exist. There's no way a dog can see or detect something that doesn't exist any more than we can.


It would seem to me that one persons opinion does not equate to fact, but thank you for your reply.


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## deege39 (Dec 29, 2008)

It's always been my belief that dogs have a "sixth"-sense...

I suggest reading the suspense novel, _Seeing Eye_, it's about a blind man, that is surgically connected to his "seeing eye dog", and that dog has visions about a murderer, and his owner sees them through the dogs eyes... 

However, my point... I believe dogs can see ghosts... There have been some suspicious, unexplainable, activities that have been happening recently in my apartment, and Donatello doesn't seem any more oblivious to it than I am; Which means there's "something" there...

Just my opinion.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Until there is testable, concrete evidence pointing towards the existence of ghosts, I can only offer the current scientific stance...

I don't know. Ill let you know once some evidence presents itself.


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## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

Ron! That is just freaky!! My dad totally believed there were ghosts. He passed away recently so I am hoping he's haunting me so I can see him again.  Maybe lil Aiko will let me know when he's around.

On the other hand I hope he's not haunting me and is happily resting in heaven waiting for us.

Anywhere else I can find good stories about this kind of thing. It intrigues me. I want to know as well.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

How weird, I had a dream about this just last night.

As for real world experience, nothing concrete. Of course there is the occasional barking at air, staring fixedly into space..but it doesn't give me 100% proof that it's supernatural.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

LuvmyRotti said:


> Several times (in this house) Quinn and my previous dog Jake would be sleeping/laying on the floor and do what Quinn did on my bed. Jump up like something scared them, and sheepishly run to another spot. They seemed scared.


My dog has done this as well, but I'm thinking she just had a scary dream and was awake enough to get up and run from it. Not that I'm dismissing the idea of ghosts or dogs being able to see them. I have no evidence either way, so like zim, I don't know...

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
-- Hebrews, Chapter 11, Verse 1


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> It would seem to me that one persons opinion does not equate to fact, but thank you for your reply.


It's not an opinion, it's a fact. There is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever to the existence of ghosts. Therefore they do not exist. You cannot claim that something exists and then admit that there is no scientific proof of it.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

SweetJeannie said:


> Anywhere else I can find good stories about this kind of thing. It intrigues me. I want to know as well.


There are some here at the page I've created about it: http://hubpages.com/hub/Can-Dogs-See-Ghosts

And some more here: http://www.oes.org/page2/3649~Can_dogs_see_ghosts.html


Thank you all for sharing your stories, I've very much enjoyed reading them, I'm hoping the woman who claims to have taken a picture of where her dogs were barking at gets back to me, and shares the pic. I guess I'll never know if dogs really do see ghosts, but it's interesting to consider it. 



hulkamaniac said:


> It's not an opinion, it's a fact. There is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever to the existence of ghosts. Therefore they do not exist. You cannot claim that something exists and then admit that there is no scientific proof of it.


The greatest scientific minds on Earth once thought the Earth to be flat, then they thought that the Earth was at the center of our solar system. If you really believe that all of the wonders of our universe can be explained by a man in a white coat with a bunsen burner, then I feel sorry for you.

p.s. I never said I believe in ghosts, just that I'm not closed to the idea.


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## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

hulkamaniac said:


> It's not an opinion, it's a fact. There is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever to the existence of ghosts. Therefore they do not exist. You cannot claim that something exists and then admit that there is no scientific proof of it.


God. Can he be scientifically proven to exist? No but yet BILLONS of people in the world believe there is a god and have claimed to be touched by him...

....its called..... Faith.

There are lots of things that aren't scientifically proven, however that doesn't make them false. Its sad that someone has such a closed outlook on something so huge...


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## akitalover09 (Jun 10, 2009)

deege39 said:


> I suggest reading the suspense novel, _Seeing Eye_, it's about a blind man, that is surgically connected to his "seeing eye dog", and that dog has visions about a murderer, and his owner sees them through the dogs eyes...


Are you sure thats what its called? I did a search and came up with nothing.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> It's not an opinion, it's a fact. There is absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever to the existence of ghosts. Therefore they do not exist. You cannot claim that something exists and then admit that there is no scientific proof of it.


I don't believe that humans have discovered all of what the universe is. Heck Scientists can't even properly explain "dark matter" yet.

I am not closed to the possibility of ghosts, because I believe that as a species we still have a long way to go in the knowledge department.


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## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

akitalover09 said:


> Are you sure thats what its called? I did a search and came up with nothing.


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Seeing-Eye/Jack-Ellis/e/9780786014071


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

That video did nothing for me. It looked like someone the dog knew, outside messing with a light. The blinds were nicely done but unconvincing. It just didn't show me the proof I'd need to make an informed decision.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> The greatest scientific minds on Earth once thought the Earth to be flat, then they thought that the Earth was at the center of our solar system. If you really believe that all of the wonders of our universe can be explained by a man in a white coat with a bunsen burner, then I feel sorry for you.


This is rapidly veering off-topic, but the burden of proof is not on the skeptics to disprove the existance of ghosts, but on the believers to prove it.

Second, the 'flat earth' theory was not as widespread as believed - at least, not amongst sailors. Erasthothenes actually managed to calculate the circumference of the earth to within 1%, over a millenia before Leif Ericson. All of the mathematics of navigation is predicated on a curved surface; even superstitious 15th century sailors instinctively understood that the world wasn't flat. The fear among Columbus' crew was not that they would fall off the edge of the world, but that they would be stranded in the ocean, dying of thirst in the middle of nowhere.



> I don't believe that humans have discovered all of what the universe is. Heck Scientists can't even properly explain "dark matter" yet.
> 
> I am not closed to the possibility of ghosts, because I believe that as a species we still have a long way to go in the knowledge department.


Dark matter is something different - it was first theorized based on available data, then its existence was confirmed decades later based on continuous observation and experimentation.

Ghosts, ESP, astrology, etc - these are all typically offered as an explanation based on the lack of data. I don't necessarily preclude their existence, but I'm going to need some very compelling evidence to even begin considering the possibility ahead of more mundane explanations.

Anyway, back to the OP: my dog is afraid of her own food bowl - I had to lay a towel down under the feeder in order to get her to eat. We've all had experiences where our dog freaks out when encountering a person wearing a backpack, or a hat, or with an arm in a cast, for the first time. Given all this, is it more likely that a dogs can detect a ghosts, or that they are reacting to a particular object, scent, or sound that we don't even notice ourselves?

And yes, I'm a contributor to the James Randi Foundation.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Independent George said:


> Dark matter is something different - it was first theorized based on available data, then its existence was confirmed decades later based on continuous observation and experimentation.


I know Dark matter has nothing to do with ghosts, (or at least I think I know) I was just using it as an example of how much we still have yet to learn.


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

Keechak said:


> I know Dark matter has nothing to do with ghosts, (or at least I think I know) I was just using it as an example of how much we still have yet to learn.


I was using it as an example of the scientific method. It began with an anomoly in observable data - the observed motion of objects in space did not match what was predicted based on what we already knew about the universe. Dark matter was controversial for many years because it was fundamentally weird. Either (a) the laws of motion were wrong in a fundamental way, or (b) most of the mass in the universe can't be detected in any meaningful way.

Choice A is actually not as crazy as it sounds; special relativity explained what classical mechanics could not, and quantum mechanics explained what special relativity could not. Choice B is frankly nuts, and yet, that's what wound up being true. The point is, it was never a matter of belief, but a question of continuous, careful research over many years. 

My problem with supernatural explanations is that people tend jump to those conclusions, without consideration of other explanations. Frankly, I find physics (and, in some cases, physicists) much, much weirder than the ghosts (speed is a constant, but distance and time are relative? really?!!!).


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

claiming there are ghosts when there'" no *concrete* proof is like saying John Titor wasn't a loon....




> Frankly, I find physics (and, in some cases, physicists) much, much weirder than the ghosts


Really? How weird.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Keechak said:


> I know Dark matter has nothing to do with ghosts, (or at least I think I know) I was just using it as an example of how much we still have yet to learn.


Granted we have a lot to learn, but believers in ghosts have had centuries upon centuries to prove their existence and have not yet produced any proof in their favor.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

Independent George said:


> I was using it as an example of the scientific method. It began with an anomoly in observable data - the observed motion of objects in space did not match what was predicted based on what we already knew about the universe. Dark matter was controversial for many years because it was fundamentally weird. Either (a) the laws of motion were wrong in a fundamental way, or (b) most of the mass in the universe can't be detected in any meaningful way.
> 
> Choice A is actually not as crazy as it sounds; special relativity explained what classical mechanics could not, and quantum mechanics explained what special relativity could not. Choice B is frankly nuts, and yet, that's what wound up being true. The point is, it was never a matter of belief, but a question of continuous, careful research over many years.
> 
> My problem with supernatural explanations is that people tend jump to those conclusions, without consideration of other explanations. Frankly, I find physics (and, in some cases, physicists) much, much weirder than the ghosts (speed is a constant, but distance and time are relative? really?!!!).


Just curious but did you carry out these experiments and analysis personally? or did you read about it?

I've never seen a ghost, I'm not necessarily a believer, but I find it no more bizarre a concept than those who swallow scientific data, based upon what they've simply been told by others, I've never personally seen a quark.


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## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

BrittanyG said:


> That video did nothing for me. It looked like someone the dog knew, outside messing with a light. The blinds were nicely done but unconvincing. It just didn't show me the proof I'd need to make an informed decision.


Yea I agree about the video. It was hardly proof. But regardless I don't think I've stared at a computer screen so hard in a long time... lol.

I was actually expecting it to be one of those things that you look really hard at and then some thing pops out and scares the crap outta ya. Thankfully it wasn't


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

hulkamaniac said:


> Granted we have a lot to learn, but believers in ghosts have had centuries upon centuries to prove their existence and have not yet produced any proof in their favor.


Many of the particles that are 'only now' being discovered have been around since forever also, this doesn't mean that they didn't exist before they were discovered.



SweetJeannie said:


> Yea I agree about the video. It was hardly proof. But regardless I don't think I've stared at a computer screen so hard in a long time... lol.
> 
> I was actually expecting it to be one of those things that you look really hard at and then some thing pops out and scares the crap outta ya. Thankfully it wasn't


Yeah it's not the best video, it was meant more to illustrate the idea rather than provide actual proof, there wasn't much on YouTube to choose from, lol


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

SweetJeannie said:


> I was actually expecting it to be one of those things that you look really hard at and then some thing pops out and scares the crap outta ya. Thankfully it wasn't


I despise those things, they make me wonder if I have a heart condition.


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## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> Yeah it's not the best video, it was meant more to illustrate the idea rather than provide actual proof, there wasn't much on YouTube to choose from, lol


hehe. I can imagine its hard to capture things like that on video. Usually its spontaneous and when you dont have a camera on hand!

Well good luck! ^_^ im going to save your site. I hope that the lady does give you the picture with the orbs... I would like to see that!!


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## Independent George (Mar 26, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> Just curious but did you carry out these experiments and analysis personally? or did you read about it?
> 
> I've never seen a ghost, I'm not necessarily a believer, but I find it no more bizarre a concept than those who swallow scientific data, based upon what they've simply been told by others, I've never personally seen a quark.


Do you not see a difference between accepting scientific data repeated, replicated, and confirmed by other scientists, despite not having carried out the experiments myself, vs. accepting the subjective word of individuals whose claims are notable precisely because they _cannot_ be replicated under controlled conditions?


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## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

BrittanyG said:


> I despise those things, they make me wonder if I have a heart condition.


Lol I hate them too! They make my heart pound so hard that I can feel it all the way to my arms! *UGH* I got the shivers now thinking about it.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

SweetJeannie said:


> hehe. I can imagine its hard to capture things like that on video. Usually its spontaneous and when you dont have a camera on hand!
> 
> Well good luck! ^_^ im going to save your site. I hope that the lady does give you the picture with the orbs... I would like to see that!!


Thanks for that, I appreciate your comments, I hope she does get back with the pic too, although she may have been having me on, lol.

Sure there is no evidence that ghosts exist, maybe they do, maybe they don't, I've no idea, but we have at least 5 senses, and I like you choose to see with more than just my eyes. 



Independent George said:


> Do you not see a difference between accepting scientific data repeated, replicated, and confirmed by other scientists, despite not having carried out the experiments myself, vs. accepting the subjective word of individuals whose claims are notable precisely because they _cannot_ be replicated under controlled conditions?


Have you personally seen it repeated and replicated under controlled conditions, do you personally know any other the scientists that have? Or did you just believe what you were told?

I've met people that I would consider to be completely stable and solid, close friends even, tell me of their paranormal experiences, I see no reason why they would lie to me, but at the same time I've never seen anything myself.

However I appreciate that Science is as much a faith as any other religion to some, and is followed unquestioningly in the same way.

(EDIT) My apologies, I didn't come here to argue about the existence of ghosts, but merely to ask if anybody else had experienced anything that they considered unusual, and what their beliefs about that behavior were. I've had the do they don't they debates before, they never end, and nobody ever wins, lol.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> Many of the particles that are 'only now' being discovered have been around since forever also, this doesn't mean that they didn't exist before they were discovered.


It's not the same. Many of those particles were speculated to exist for years. There was strong scientific evidence that indicated the existence of said particles. You can't say that for ghosts. There is not a single shred of evidence on their behalf. Scientists have not proved that there even is an afterlife (despite many attempts to do so) much less that in this (alleged) afterlife people have any sort of sentience at all, much less that in this afterlife they can interact with our world.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I had a friend that was a very superstitious person. She was recently divorced, living on her own. She was always afraid to be alone, couldn't stand the dark etc... I had a dog that was really into laser pointers. You know the kind, she would stare at the light and follow it around the room with great gusto. One day, she (my dog) was looking at the wall and my friend was watching her. My friend said "That is so weird, I wonder what she is looking at?" I said, "I think she sees ghosts" My friends eyes got huge and she started freaking out. I flashed the light on the wall again to have my dog show more enthusiasm and sort of look off the the side and then back to where she was. (Yes, I have a little mean streak) My friend went into full panic mode and wanted to leave the house. I fest up at that point so she didn't have heart failure or anything.

Though I am not a believer, I think it would be fairly small minded to not at least admit to the possibility. I know of several people that have had first hand encounters and they are not the "believer types". I myself had a very odd circumstance that ALMOST made me believe and did make me open to the possibility. I have no idea if dogs can actually see anything that we cannot.


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## SweetJeannie (Jul 7, 2009)

Inga said:


> I had a friend that was a very superstitious person. She was recently divorced, living on her own. She was always afraid to be alone, couldn't stand the dark etc... I had a dog that was really into laser pointers. You know the kind, she would stare at the light and follow it around the room with great gusto. One day, she (my dog) was looking at the wall and my friend was watching her. My friend said "That is so weird, I wonder what she is looking at?" I said, "I think she sees ghosts" My friends eyes got huge and she started freaking out. I flashed the light on the wall again to have my dog show more enthusiasm and sort of look off the the side and then back to where she was. (Yes, I have a little mean streak) My friend went into full panic mode and wanted to leave the house. I fest up at that point so she didn't have heart failure or anything.


HAHA That is funny. I think I will have to teach Aiko that. Then I can play that trick on my family. Woooo


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Dogs detect sights, sounds, smells, and tastes better than humans simply because they are built differently. If there are such things as ghosts, I have no trouble believing that a dog might detect them more accurately than a person. 

Having said that, I have never had an experience with a living animal in which I believed it was detecting a ghost. I have, however, detected my own animal ghost. My cat died about three years ago, but at least once a week until the day I moved out of my parents' house I was able to feel her sleeping at the foot of my bed at night. "Feel" as in actually run my foot into a solid mass and have it unable to go any further. Prior to my sharing this with anyone (because it seemed like a bit of an awkward thing to discuss), my mother confessed to me that she had heard the thump of the cat jumping off my bed and into the hallway on numerous occasions after her death.

Ghost? Energy from her living body that had not yet discharged? Group hallucination? Deep grief? I couldn't say. I am content to report the phenomenon without it an explanation I can't back up.


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## GSDGAL (May 27, 2009)

My old Border collie X Kelpy that i used to own Twinkle may she RIP had a habit of going into a our next door neighbours paddock. On one occassion i remember looking out the window and she was standing in the middle of the paddock looking up at an angle and growling and barking so ferociously i went out...there was nothing there...I later found out that our neighbours had seen her do that a few times before.

now i don't believe in ghosts, but i do believe in angels and demons...apparnetly before our neighbours moved onto that property it had been owned bya witches coven, if you look at where the dog barks there is a flat rock with knife marks from where they used to do animal sacrifice, two of these "witches" are now serving 5 year sentences for animal cruelty...I wouldn't be surprised if she was barking at demons


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> Have you personally seen it repeated and replicated under controlled conditions, do you personally know any other the scientists that have? Or did you just believe what you were told?


That's a ridiculous argument. I've never seen the Pittsburg Pirates play in person. I've never spoken to anyone I know who has seen the Pirates play in person (at least that I know of). Therefor I conclude that the Pittsburg Pirates don't exist and all the newspapers are making them up. 

I presume that you also do not believe the planet Neptune exists because you've never been there. Do you also deny the existence of the continent of Antarctica? Pretty much everyone who goes there is a scientific researcher, normal civilians almost never go. It must not exist. I've never seen a whale shark in person. They must be fake as well. 

Let's use Occam's razor here can we? Is it easier to believe that a huge number of scientists are flat out lieing to us and a huge number of other scientists are going along with it and no one is ratting each other out or is it easier to believe they're all telling the truth? Come now, let's be reasonable.



> However I appreciate that Science is as much a faith as any other religion to some, and is followed unquestioningly in the same way.


No, science is not a faith. As a matter of fact, science and faith go about determining truths of our existence in completely different and mostly incompatible ways. Science is based on knowledge gleaned from observation and repetition under controlled circumstances. Faith is quite the opposite. 

If you want to state that you believe ghosts exist, that's fine. You can believe whatever you like. If you want to state that they do indeed exist and then wonder about means of detecting them, you are incorrect. If you want to state something exists, then you must prove it's existence and as of right now there is no scientific evidence proving that ghosts exist.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

hulkamaniac said:


> That's a ridiculous argument. I've never seen the Pittsburg Pirates play in person. I've never spoken to anyone I know who has seen the Pirates play in person (at least that I know of). Therefor I conclude that the Pittsburg Pirates don't exist and all the newspapers are making them up.
> 
> I presume that you also do not believe the planet Neptune exists because you've never been there. Do you also deny the existence of the continent of Antarctica? Pretty much everyone who goes there is a scientific researcher, normal civilians almost never go. It must not exist. I've never seen a whale shark in person. They must be fake as well.


That's not my argument, merely a reflection of yours, it was YOU who stated that something couldn't exist, because you had not seen it.



hulkamaniac said:


> Science is based on knowledge gleaned from observation and repetition under controlled circumstances.


Yes, but not your knowledge, you've never seen these things, it's passed down to you as knowledge in the same way that Bible teachings are passed down to believers by priests.

You couldn't personally show me a quark, you just assume that those who say they could, could.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

mrvoodoo said:


> However I appreciate that Science is as much a faith as any other religion to some, and is followed unquestioningly in the same way.


you don't understand what science it.

science is a process. it's a means to an end. that end being the gathering of testable information. 

and in order to engage in that process...one must be a skeptic.

meaning that one must have an *absence* of faith. because things that are taken on faith are not always consistently testable.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> you don't understand what science it.
> 
> science is a process. it's a means to an end. that end being the gathering of testable information.
> 
> ...


I'm not a religious man but somehow this seems fitting 'there are none so blind as those who will not see'.

I'm perfectly aware of what science is, but I am also aware of what science isn't.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Note that I don't insist or claim that my dog's action were the result of seeing a ghost. I pointed out that he detected something out of the ordinary and responded in a way that I thought was physically impossible. 

I could be lying, or I could be nuts, but I know what I saw. I just have no idea what my dog saw.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

Well, does this count? One day the dogs were outside, and it started to thunder. Chloe immediately went to barking at the tree. Now she still thinks there's something in the trees, and everytime we go outside, she charges the trees and tries to attack them, lol. I keep trying to tell her that she's not going to win, lol.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

I look at all those who have responded 'I've never seen anything, but I'm open to the idea' and that to me is a well rounded person, I'm not here to push anything, I've never seen a ghost either, but for someone to believe without question that they are unquestioningly correct about an issue they really know very little about, well, I feel a little sad for you.

‘I don’t BELIEVE that ghosts exist’ that I can buy, but to be so arrogant as to presume that you alone hold the answers to the deepest questions ever asked, that your word is final, well c’mon lets face it, in the big picture you’re insignificant, as am I, perhaps you’ll be surprised one day by just how little you really knew.


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## six pack (May 10, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> Hi all, I've been doing some reading about this, so thought I would come to a place with lots of dog owners to see if they'd had any similar experiences.
> 
> Have a quick read and let me know your thoughts:
> 
> ...


To the left of it was a debunk


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> That's not my argument, merely a reflection of yours, it was YOU who stated that something couldn't exist, because you had not seen it.


No, I stated that something did not exist because there is no evidence to prove it. That's what I stated. Show me the scientific evidence for ghosts and then we can debate whether dogs can actually detect them. Until I see that evidence, I do not believe.




> Yes, but not your knowledge, you've never seen these things, it's passed down to you as knowledge in the same way that Bible teachings are passed down to believers by priests.
> 
> You couldn't personally show me a quark, you just assume that those who say they could, could.


So what. I've never seen my parents marriage license. The fact that they are married was passed on to me by them and other people. The fact that other people and my parents tell me they're married does not mean they are married. What makes them married (in a legal sense at least) is that they do have a marriage license that physically exists somewhere. Just because I've never seen it doesn't make it so. It is so because it physically exists and it's existence can be verified repeatedly under controlled conditions by other people.

My parents can produce a copy of said marriage license. (i.e. they can produce proof that they are indeed married). If I doubt that the license is legit I can ask the witnesses who signed the certificate (i.e. a biased 3rd party can produce the result). If I doubt their word, I can go to the courthouse in the county they were married in and find a copy of the certificate on file (i.e. an impartial 3rd party can produce the certificate). 

No scientist, under controlled conditions, has ever produced evidence of the existence of ghosts. There has never, ever been a verified experiment. Why is suddenly a huge, gigantic leap of logic to conclude that ghosts do not exist?

If you believe ghosts exist then prove it. Show me the money. Then we'll discuss whether dogs can detect them. The burden of proof is not on the skeptic to prove that anything exists. The skeptic says, "Show me the proof." So far, no one has produced any for ghosts.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

hulkamaniac said:


> Until I see that evidence, I do not believe.


Now we're getting somewhere, 'I do not believe' is fine with me, but originally you stated categorically that ghosts DO NOT exist. If you check back through this thread you'll see that I have never claimed that they do, just that I was curious and open to the idea.

A closed receptacle can never be filled with knowledge.



hulkamaniac said:


> The fact that other people and my parents tell me they're married does not mean they are married. What makes them married (in a legal sense at least) is that they do have a marriage license that physically exists somewhere.


You assume it does.

What of children who have spent their whole lives believing themselves the offspring of their parents only to find out that they were adopted, I'm sure that they assumed that somewhere was a birth certificate with their (adopted) parents name on it.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

mrvoodoo said:


> Now we're getting somewhere, 'I do not believe' is fine with me, but originally you stated categorically that ghosts DO NOT exist. If you check back through this thread you'll see that I have never claimed that they do, just that I was curious and open to the idea.
> 
> A closed receptacle can never be filled with knowledge.


And some people walk around with their minds so open their brains fall out. From a scientific perspective, ghosts do not exist. There is no evidence to their existence, therefore they do not exist. This is all I'm saying.




> You assume it does.
> 
> What of children who have spent their whole lives believing themselves the offspring of their parents only to find out that they were adopted, I'm sure that they assumed that somewhere was a birth certificate with their (adopted) parents name on it.


Now you're making ridiculous assumptions. Based on your logic, we should not believe anything that we ourselves have not personally tested. People tell me NASCAR drivers can go nearly 200 mph or more. I've never done this, therefore I believe it's not true. Brilliant logic.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

hulkamaniac said:


> And some people walk around with their minds so open their brains fall out. From a scientific perspective, ghosts do not exist. There is no evidence to their existence, therefore they do not exist. This is all I'm saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol, fair enough, that last one was fairly ridiculous, but it's 04:04 in the morning here and I've been talking about dogs and ghosts all day, there's only so much I can take.

I surrender, you're right, ghosts definitely do not exist, and dogs don't see ghosts, I was a fool to even entertain the idea without any scientific data with which to back it up.

Right I'm off to bed, take it easy.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Awesome.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

mrvoodoo said:


> I look at all those who have responded 'I've never seen anything, but I'm open to the idea' and that to me is a well rounded person, I'm not here to push anything, I've never seen a ghost either, but for someone to believe without question that they are unquestioningly correct about an issue they really know very little about, well, I feel a little sad for you.
> 
> ‘I don’t BELIEVE that ghosts exist’ that I can buy, but to be so arrogant as to presume that you alone hold the answers to the deepest questions ever asked, that your word is final, well c’mon lets face it, in the big picture you’re insignificant, as am I, perhaps you’ll be surprised one day by just how little you really knew.


Do you believe in the possibility of a Flying Spaghetti Monster? Is you mind open enough for that?

http://www.venganza.org/


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Loooove the FSM....and I personally don't believe in ghosts, so no, I don't think dogs can see ghosts.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I will phrase it this way, I believe dogs can sense paranormal activity. 
I've seen dogs pick up on activity in the house I was raised in. How one would explain that activity is up to you, but I've witnessed some pretty freaky occurrences in that place as have my children. All the animals we owned reacted to it as well.


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## Entwine (Jan 14, 2009)

I believe there are many unexplainable happenings with animals, including dogs.. That may point to their ability to sense something we cannot.

However, I don't know. Dogs have been proven capable of smelling cancerous cells WITHIN a human body. Their reactions can be a result of so many stimuli other than "ghosts" that humans can't perceive, it's hard to decide.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Dogs can sense things we can't.

They can "read" the energies in a situation and that changes everything about them.

Is there any scientific evidence that proves without a doubt a dog can do this, or is it something we can just see by watching/interacting with dogs?

I don't believe everything has to be laid out in a perfectly precise absolute scientific law in order to exist. Be it ghosts, how a dog thinks, or anything else.

Heck, something as "basic" as learning is still a "theory". Social interaction is still a "theory". A dogs process of forming memories is a theory (at best). Do dogs have an imagination? Do they visualize? If two dogs are in a fight - do they have the ability to plan their next move? Has science proven any of this 100%?

So if science can't prove 100% (i.e. make them laws instead of theories) something that common place, why should I think they have the answers to what all a dog can or can't detect?





zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> you don't understand what science it.
> 
> science is a process. it's a means to an end. that end being the gathering of testable information.
> 
> ...



I disagree with this.

I don't have to be skeptical to be open to the process of gathering new testable information. I don't have to be skeptical to make objective observations and compile that data in an objective manner.

If I wanted to test which of the 4 quadrants of OC actually works better on the neighborhood dogs, I wouldn't have to be skeptical of OC or any principle of OC. I would simply have to gather data, compile it, and make sure my process of observation and gathering to be constant and the same.

To me, none of that has to do with being a skeptical person. What you describe, to me, is being impartial. I can't test if ghosts exist if I'm so in favor of them existing that I throw out data to the contrary. I could believe they exist (not skeptical), try to prove it, and the process shows me they really don't - basically proving my hypothesis (ghosts do exist) false.


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## AmyBeth (Jun 26, 2009)

I had a dog when I was in high school that was a very well behaved, very friendly dog, that was also very protective of me. One day my brother and I were in the kitchen doing something and Hoshi (my dog) started growling in a very low tone. Then our other dog came over and stood there and stared at the same spot Hoshi was. I'm not sure what she sensed, but my brother did seem kind of on edge right before it happened. And he's been known to see pets after they've passed walking around the house and some other kinda weird things. As far as Hoshi, I had only seen her react in that manner on 3 different occasions and the other 2 there really was a precievable threat. 

I do believe that there is something to what peole see when they claim to have seen ghosts. Now wether or not it was caused by ghost or if it was something we do not yet understand, I"m not sure

Oh and "The lack of evidence is not evidence"


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

KaseyT said:


> Do you believe in the possibility of a Flying Spaghetti Monster? Is you mind open enough for that?


Oh the old 'FSM' joke, yeah big laughs, very clever, but oh so very very old, we've all seen South Park, maybe I too could come off as being really really clever if I quoted you some Beavis and Butthead...

The FSM joke is the forum equivalent of geeks dressing up like NEO and spewing out Matrix quotes to try and get girls, good in theory, but they always end up looking a bit of a ****...


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Mr Voodoo, I don't mind a debate, but some of your comments are borderline on insulting to our members. Watch the insults, they will get you banned very quickly here.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

Now now, don't hate, the FSM is teh funny and illustrates a point, but it's not a tangent I really want to go off on on this forum.

Here's a story that will maybe explain where I'm coming from on this...last week at the restaurant I work at a table had just left...they had a margarita, one of the two serving kinds that is served in a stainless steel shaker with a lid...while I was talking to another table, the lid of the shaker flew off, flew through the air, and landed on the table behind it. Quite a few people in the restaurant freaked out. Several were convinced that it was a ghost that flung the lid, others commented on how weird or spooky they thought it was. Me personally, I think pressure built up inside the shaker and popped the lid off, no big deal, but the number of people who were ready to jump to the conclusion of the supernatural just because they didn't have an explanation readily at hand surprised me. At any rate, for many people seeing something like that _is_ the proof, "I saw it with my own eyes!"...they don't stop to ask _why_...is there another explanation? In my experiences, there is always another explanation.

Back on the topic of dogs, my dogs bark at nothing all the time...they're shelties, if I had a dollar for every time they jumped up from a dead sleep barking, I could quit my day job. Do they hear or see something I don't hear or see? Probably, but why assume it's something supernatural and not termites in the wall, a dog several streets away, a cat outside, water dripping, leaves blowing, etc?


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

KBLover said:


> Dogs can sense things we can't.
> 
> They can "read" the energies in a situation and that changes everything about them.


I'm sorry, but I don't believe dogs can read someone's "energy" nor do I believe that said "energy" exists in the first place. I believe dogs are very good at reading body language. It's how they tend to communicate with each other. It's not a stretch that they would communicate with us the same way. 



> Is there any scientific evidence that proves without a doubt a dog can do this, or is it something we can just see by watching/interacting with dogs?
> 
> I don't believe everything has to be laid out in a perfectly precise absolute scientific law in order to exist. Be it ghosts, how a dog thinks, or anything else.


There's a huge difference between observing dogs and observing ghosts. We can create experiments in controlled environments and repeat them over and over again, observe the results and theorize about how a dog thinks from these results. Other people can perform the same experiments and will get the same results. We have never, ever, ever, ever observed a ghost in any sort of controlled setting. Therefore, we can state that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of ghosts.



> Heck, something as "basic" as learning is still a "theory". Social interaction is still a "theory". A dogs process of forming memories is a theory (at best). Do dogs have an imagination? Do they visualize? If two dogs are in a fight - do they have the ability to plan their next move? Has science proven any of this 100%?
> 
> So if science can't prove 100% (i.e. make them laws instead of theories) something that common place, why should I think they have the answers to what all a dog can or can't detect?


There is a huge gigantic difference between the scientific definition of the word theory and the common definition of the word theory. Don't have time to go into it, but let's all remember that Pythagoreums Theorum is still classified as a theory yet it is taught as fact to every school child.



> I disagree with this.
> 
> I don't have to be skeptical to be open to the process of gathering new testable information. I don't have to be skeptical to make objective observations and compile that data in an objective manner.
> 
> ...


You don't have to be a skeptic in order to run experiments, in fact, you should be impartial. The thing is there is no evidence at all supporting the existence of ghosts. It doesn't take a skeptic to look at the non-existing evidence and conclude that ghosts don't exist. If I wanted to prove to the scientific community that ghosts do exist then the burden is on me to produce such proof. I can't just say, "Ghosts exist and I challenge you to prove otherwise." That's not good science.

The fact of the matter is the vast majority of the population (and I include myself in this number) have little more than a passing knowledge of scientific fact and scientific knowledge and sometimes not even that. My brother is 15 and probably couldn't tell me the value of acceleration due to gravity. My sister is graduated and probably couldn't either. People have very little knowledge of how the physical world around them works and when they see something unusual, they just chalk it up to the paranormal.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Mr Voodoo, I don't mind a debate, but some of your comments are borderline on insulting to our members. Watch the insults, they will get you banned very quickly here.


Time to close ranks is it, I saw that coming from a long way off, don't worry I have zero intention of remaining an active member.

Some of your members comments were also borderline on insulting to me, but we can turn a blind eye for the old membership base right?

Thanks to all who shared your on-topic stories.


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## LilOllie (Jun 2, 2009)

If ghosts exist I'm going to say that unicorns do too, oh and maybe big foot and the lockness monster. Could those things all exist?...eh posssibly I guess, but it seems highly unlikely considering there is no proof of any of them.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

KBLover said:


> I disagree with this.
> 
> I don't have to be skeptical to be open to the process of gathering new testable information. I don't have to be skeptical to make objective observations and compile that data in an objective manner.
> 
> ...



no to be a scientist...the burden of proof is on you when come up with something new...because in a peer reviewed paper...your peers are going to be RUTHLESS in dissection and analysis of your work. therefore you need to be just as ruthless, if not more..in questioning and looking for flaws in your results.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

mrvoodoo said:


> Time to close ranks is it, I saw that coming from a long way off, don't worry I have zero intention of remaining an active member.
> 
> Some of your members comments were also borderline on insulting to me, but we can turn a blind eye for the old membership base right?
> 
> Thanks to all who shared your on-topic stories.



Close ranks? No, ask around, I'm as likely to ban a long standing member as a newbie. Saying you don't believe in something and disagreeing isn't insulting, it's debating, calling someone giant nerd for a posting that was obviously a joke could be construed as intentionally trying to provoke that person. There's a fine line, one that it's my job to decide who has crossed it and when.



LilOllie said:


> If ghosts exist I'm going to say that unicorns do too, oh and maybe big foot and the lockness monster. Could those things all exist?...eh posssibly I guess, but it seems highly unlikely considering there is no proof of any of them.



Unicorns were people seeing animals such as Scimitar Antelope with a horn broken off, just as Manatee's were mistaken for Mermaids.


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## mrvoodoo (Jul 11, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Close ranks? No, ask around, I'm as likely to ban a long standing member as a newbie. Saying you don't believe in something and disagreeing isn't insulting, it's debating, calling someone giant nerd for a posting that was obviously a joke could be construed as intentionally trying to provoke that person. There's a fine line, one that it's my job to decide who has crossed it and when.


My apologies, it was not my intention to insult anybody, but the FSM thing isn't always used as a joke, these days it's the most frequently used piece of ammo used to essentially call anybody with any shred of belief an idiot.

'You believe in God, pfttttt, do you also believe in a flying spaghetti monster?'

i.e. you're an idiot (not you moderator, lol) I'm just saying that's what it implies, hence it is an insult.


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## Erick Aguilar (Jun 9, 2008)

LilOllie said:


> If ghosts exist I'm going to say that unicorns do too, oh and maybe big foot and the lockness monster. Could those things all exist?...eh posssibly I guess, but it seems highly unlikely considering there is no proof of any of them.


Now that is very different.
The lochness monster resembles a liopleurodon and a brontosaurus,i believe it was a mere allucination because if it was real, it would have been already found.
Here is where the human mind come into play tricking us with what we believe and what we choose to see.


As cshellenberger (actually, you hit the jackpot, i was waiting for someone to say what you did to chime in) said.... dogs can sense PARANORMAL activity.
Paranormal activity has been scientifically proven and it's actually a career and profesion(Paranolmal Study), and it's often linked to ghosts, spirits, demons, natural anomalies,phantoms,and spectre's.

While people will instantly bank into natural anomalies... ghosts, spirits,etc... are also natural anomalies.
Take Amityville for instance! Poltergeist, a paranolman activity linked to psicology and how a childs emotion supression and stress could cause a poltergeist, first said to be a ghosts making.

There is another factor... we call them souls, and we are owners of one (said by catholicism) but what are souls? do we have them? because there is no scientific proof of what souls are but meere faith and believing.

Couple of years ago, and recently, months ago, there was an investigation, in which people would be ''killed'' for 5 to 10 minutes and then revived back in, people who participated all said they felt themselves leaving their bodies,but they had their eyes open in with themselves (a soul maybe?)

Ghosts,phantoms,souls,demons,angels,spectres exists, the same way an omnipotent thing lives above us in a sepparate dimension called ''heaven'', does heaven and hell exist??? another long debate.

Time will tell... science will tell us someday, most likely we will believe when we are ready to believe.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Well, I don't watch South Park, can't stand the show or the type of humor in it (which I find a bit sick) and feel much the same about it as I do Beavis and Butthead. 

Tell me Mrvoodoo, do you watch Ghost Hunters? Eastern State Penitentiary is one of my favorite episodes.



Erick Aguilar said:


> There is another factor... we call them souls, and we are owners of one (said by catholicism) but what are souls? do we have them? because there is no scientific proof of what souls are but meere faith and believing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And there we tread dangerously on a religious debate, which we wish to avoid as they tend to get ugly and have been banned for that reason.


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## Erick Aguilar (Jun 9, 2008)

cshellenberger said:


> Well, I don't watch South Park, can't stand the show or the type of humor in it (which I find a bit sick) and feel much the same about it as I do Beavis and Butthead.
> 
> Tell me Mrvoodoo, do you watch Ghost Hunters? Eastern State Penitentiary is one of my favorite episodes.
> 
> ...


Nah, i'm not even religious, i accept and respect all religions because they are all very interesting, but it's the exact same thing as ghosts and other subjects not easily proven.


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

I'm not a religious person either and I've gotta say, after experiencing enough weird happenings in my life, I believe 100% in ghosts and hauntings. I don't care what anyone says. I've also got people in my life who have experienced the exact same things I did, so I'm definitely not seeing things. I also believe that dogs are particularly sensitive to paranormal activity such as that. Eevee's not a nervous dog, but has reacted to weird stuff on several occasions throughout her life.

I woke up one night in pitch black because Eevee was barking and freaking out. I stumbled out of bed and turned on the light to see what was going on. She was barking and snarling at an empty corner across the room, hackles raised and everything. Nothing I did at the time could get her to quit being alarmed at this empty corner. It was enough to creep me out. I slept on the couch that night lol.

Believe what you want, and I'll believe what I want.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Anyone who studies, not just science, but the history of science, understands that what was unknown or "impossible" 100 years ago is often commonly accepted today.

I have a degree in marine geology but, for me, the acceptance of plate tectonics, for example, if still a matter of faith since I have never personally observed the activity. In fact, in the 36 years since I graduated, it's entirely possible that plate tectonics has been disproven and replaced with another "fact."

Science has never been and will never be static.

What that means to me is that I don't know if my lab saw the ghost of my mother-in-law (who was spooky-enough while alive) but he was freaked out by something that I couldn't see, hear or smell. 

Maybe it was a unicorn.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Erick Aguilar said:


> As cshellenberger (actually, you hit the jackpot, i was waiting for someone to say what you did to chime in) said.... dogs can sense PARANORMAL activity.
> Paranormal activity has been scientifically proven and it's actually a career and profesion(Paranolmal Study), and it's often linked to ghosts, spirits, demons, natural anomalies,phantoms,and spectre's.


Actually, you're incorrect. It has not been scientifically proven that ghosts, spirits, demons, etc.... exist. People make careers of studying these phenomena, but it has not been proven that they exist.



> While people will instantly bank into natural anomalies... ghosts, spirits,etc... are also natural anomalies.
> Take Amityville for instance! Poltergeist, a paranolman activity linked to psicology and how a childs emotion supression and stress could cause a poltergeist, first said to be a ghosts making.


Hasn't it been pretty much established that this story was made up completely by the home owners? The people who currently own and live in the house have said they have experienced no paranormal phenomena at all.



> Ghosts,phantoms,souls,demons,angels,spectres exists, the same way an omnipotent thing lives above us in a sepparate dimension called ''heaven'', does heaven and hell exist??? another long debate.
> 
> Time will tell... science will tell us someday, most likely we will believe when we are ready to believe.


You may believe this if you wish and I have no issue with you believing it. But that is not scientific fact. Before we can discuss if dogs can detect ghosts, we must establish that ghosts actually exist. If I want to find out if my dog can track a rabbit then I need an actual rabbit or at least the scent of one. Not only do we not have any observations of ghosts in a controlled environment, but we have no hints of ghosts in said controlled environment.

I attribute the vast majority of paranormal activity to people who don't understand how our world works. As I've said, I think this encompasses a vast majority of our population as a study released just this week says. People see things they can't explain and chalk it up to ghosts, goblins, etc...

Watch Penn and Teller's Bullet Catch illusion - 



. 

Now, we know Penn and Teller are magicians and they're doing this trick with slight of hand and misdirection, but if someone didn't know these guys were magicians, they might attribute their abilities to some sort of mystical source when, in fact, that's just not the case. Either way, it's a very impressive illusion and it's indicative of what people do every day when they see something they can't explain. They just go, "It's magic."


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## LuvmyRotti (Oct 26, 2007)

winniec777 said:


> My dog has done this as well, but I'm thinking she just had a scary dream and was awake enough to get up and run from it. Not that I'm dismissing the idea of ghosts or dogs being able to see them. I have no evidence either way, so like zim, I don't know...


I would agree with that, only sometimes they are just lying there and not sleeping. So, not a dream. First few times I thought maybe something bit Jake, so I checked him out, looked in his ears.nothing. Quinn and Jake have done this more often, but Cartman has too. That's 3 dogs exhibiting the same behaviour. If someone could explain what it is, great I'm open to it - I'm also very open to it being something else.


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## Erick Aguilar (Jun 9, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> Actually, you're incorrect. It has not been scientifically proven that ghosts, spirits, demons, etc.... exist. People make careers of studying these phenomena, but it has not been proven that they exist.


However i never said ghosts, spirits, demons have been proven to exist, i said that they are often linked to paranormal acitivity, and i never said that ghosts count as paranormal activity,but they are studied by paranormal investigators




hulkamaniac said:


> Hasn't it been pretty much established that this story was made up completely by the home owners? The people who currently own and live in the house have said they have experienced no paranormal phenomena at all.


No, a poltergeist is not a haunting, it's a psicological state caused by people living somewhere, it doesn't stay in the house, very curious that the poltergeists in Amity Ville stopped as soon as a shrink started to study the psicological state of the family.
A haunting does stay in a house, because a spirit that habited in said place either the house, or the surroundings of it stood there to try to fullfil his life, which is said to be a reason of why ghosts appear.




hulkamaniac said:


> You may believe this if you wish and I have no issue with you believing it. But that is not scientific fact. Before we can discuss if dogs can detect ghosts, we must establish that ghosts actually exist. If I want to find out if my dog can track a rabbit then I need an actual rabbit or at least the scent of one. Not only do we not have any observations of ghosts in a controlled environment, but we have no hints of ghosts in said controlled environment.


No, but we can surely prove what dogs ''feel'' when they act like they do in those kinds of enviorments, we don't have their impressive sense, but we can study them,and how they function inside.

There is infact a scientific prove for our ''ghost sightnings'' that involves geomagnetic fields, sound frequency that affects our feelings,and carbon monoxide which cause allucination, and of course, periferic view.
Which leads me to ask you... have you ever been in a ''haunted'' house and felt this way?

I would be VERY interested to see if these factors affect dogs like they affect us.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

RonE said:


> Anyone who studies, not just science, but the history of science, understands that what was unknown or "impossible" 100 years ago is often commonly accepted today.


Agreed, but how many times has science shown an ancient pagan superstition to be true.



RonE said:


> I have a degree in marine geology but, for me, the acceptance of plate tectonics, for example, if still a matter of faith since I have never personally observed the activity. In fact, in the 36 years since I graduated, it's entirely possible that plate tectonics has been disproven and replaced with another "fact."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fist of all, plate tectonics was never a scientific fact. That's not what a "fact" is. The speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s in a vacuum is a fact.

Plate tectonics is a theory, or a principal, depending on the application. Theories, by definition, are not and never can be facts. Hence they cannot be replaced by another "fact". If the known facts, observations, and testable suppositions no longer support the theory, it will either be modified as necessary or abandoned. 

At the moment that is not the case (accept among those whose spiritual belief conflicts with such theories).


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Erick Aguilar said:


> However i never said ghosts, spirits, demons have been proven to exist, i said that they are often linked to paranormal acitivity, and i never said that ghosts count as paranormal activity,but they are studied by paranormal investigators


Actually, you did state, "*Paranormal activity has been scientifically proven*" That is an incorrect statement.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> Plate tectonics is a theory, or a principal, depending on the application.


Hence the parentheses around "fact."

I think you all are making this harder than it needs to be. The OP is wondering if anyone believes their dog has seen a ghost. Clearly, if you don't believe in ghosts, you'll be certain that your dog, and every other dog, has never seen one.

The question seems similar to "Do you think your dog dreams about chasing squirrels?" It invites speculation. I don't understand how it invites sarcasm or all the line-drawing in the sand. 

It is a recreational question. My answer remains, "Maybe so."


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Fist of all, plate tectonics was never a scientific fact. That's not what a "fact" is. The speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s in a vacuum is a fact.


Ron never called it a fact. In fact he qualified his statement with faith and even made the effort to discriminate his use of the word fact, in quotes - as in common usage, but not necessarily 100% true. He is in fact talking about theory, and leaving the discussion open to alternate hypotheses. Unicorns being the cutest.


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## Erick Aguilar (Jun 9, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> Actually, you did state, "*Paranormal activity has been scientifically proven*" That is an incorrect statement.


And it has been, because a paranormal activity is anything that can't be scientifically proven instantly, but which has a scientific explanation.

Even the bermuda triangle counts as paranormal activity, and it's an electromagnetic anomaly.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

LilOllie said:


> If ghosts exist I'm going to say that unicorns do too, oh and maybe big foot and the lockness monster. Could those things all exist?...eh posssibly I guess, but it seems highly unlikely considering there is no proof of any of them.


I'm a skeptic too, but will peek at reason. I would not have thought ghosts exist had I not pondered this idea from the movie _What the Bleep do we (K)now!? _Science has had a tough time explaining the disappearance of matter. Much of science is based on the theory that matter can not be destroyed; broken down, yes, but can not disappear - like at the event horizon of a black hole. Roughly explained, one hypothesis explaining the disappearance of matter is, for the lack of a better words, an alternate reality. The matter doesn't actually disappear, it just moves between realities. Deep, I know.

I'll not be the one to prove this hypothesis, but is it possible? Seems within reason considering this. There are stories about how early indians could not see Columbus' ships approaching, and they could not see them because they had absolutely no concept of what a ship was. They only came to discover the ships by noticing the ripples of water in the ocean, and after a few days of observation a ship appeared.

Could ghosts be living in an alternate reality? And we can't see them simply because we have no concept of what the ghost is? 

Having said all that I'm still a skeptic as to whether dogs can see ghosts. Because if I don't have a concept of what a ghost is, how could my dog? Then again, maybe my dog does have a concept of ghosts and I'm the tail wagging the dog.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Erick Aguilar said:


> And it has been, because a paranormal activity is anything that can't be scientifically proven instantly, but which has a scientific explanation.
> 
> Even the bermuda triangle counts as paranormal activity, and it's an electromagnetic anomaly.


Again, you're incorrect in your definition. Dictionary.com defines paranormal as - "of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception *without scientific explanation*, as psychokinesis, extrasensory perception, or other purportedly supernatural phenomena." (emphasis mine).

The paranormal by definition is not scientific.


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## Erick Aguilar (Jun 9, 2008)

And here, you are wrong.

A dictionary will never explain in dept what paranormal means, it needs to be a specialized dictionary of science.

I would really recommend you to get your definitions from books and not the internet which is easily editable and often can carry alot of misinformation.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

OK the definition of PARANORMAL 

para =beside, beyond from the Latin language http://www.kent.k12.wa.us/ksd/MA/resources/greek_and_latin_roots/transition.html


NORMA = latin for the carpenters square, implying that it's the rule or standard. 


So Para Normal would be 'beyond' the rule


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Erick Aguilar said:


> And here, you are wrong.
> 
> A dictionary will never explain in dept what paranormal means, it needs to be a specialized dictionary of science.
> 
> I would really recommend you to get your definitions from books and not the internet which is easily editable and often can carry alot of misinformation.


I'm sorry, so a dictionary can't define words any more? When did that happen? I don't need a dictionary of science to define a word like relativity. Why do I need a dictionary of science (whatever that is) to define paranormal? And your quip that everything on the 'net is "easily editable" then check out definitions from several different sites for paranormal.

Yourdictionary.com - designating or of psychic or mental phenomena outside the range of the normal

answers.com - Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation: such paranormal phenomena as telepathy; a medium's paranormal powers.

thefreedictionary.com - Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation:

wikipedia - a general term that describes unusual experiences that lack a scientific explanation

Merriam-Webster.com - : not scientifically explainable

Apparently, the same person or persons has been editing every single one of these web sites and putting the exact same definition in every one of them. He's or she has changed the wording just a little bit to throw someone off the track, but it's definitely a conspiracy.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

I wouldn't say that para normal activity isn't scientifically explainable, I'd say science hasn't caught up enough to explain it. 

250 years ago it was thought that evil spirits caused illness, those 'spirits' turned out ot be bacteria, viruses and fungus that we could only see with the invention of the microscope. 

After all 150 years ago no one understood why being around certain kinds of rocks could make you sick, we now those rocks are radioactive thanks to Marie Curie. A few years ago we would have never imagined an electrical field could cause headaches and anxiety, we now know that high EMF fields can do JUST that as well as possibly cause cancer.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> no to be a scientist...the burden of proof is on you when come up with something new...because in a peer reviewed paper...your peers are going to be RUTHLESS in dissection and analysis of your work. therefore you need to be just as ruthless, if not more..in questioning and looking for flaws in your results.


I don't see what this has to do with being a skeptic.

Starting out with the pre-determined thought that something isn't true doesn't seem to be the mindset to discover a new truth. It seems more likely to color any information through the lens of your own preconceived idea instead of objectively evaluating what you uncovered. I thought the role of a scientist was the gather data and then make an objective conclusion based on the data, regardless of being "skeptical" or "optimistic". 

In other words, I thought the scientist is a neutral observer. Not on the "pro" or "against" side. The evidence will then swing the "meter" either way as it comes in and is recorded and observed. Not standing on the against side with the a pre-conceived concept of what the data will say even before even seeing any evidence or observation.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

"The skeptic does not mean him who doubts, but him who investigates or researches, as opposed to him who asserts and thinks that he has found."

-Miguel de Unamuno


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I am a Reiki practitioner. For those of you who are not familiar, it is a complementary energy therapy. The concept is that "life energy" or 'ki' is channelled through the practitioner into the client, affecting their energy balance.

Now, before all you "skeptics" start rolling your eyes...lol...I also had a bit of a time believing this concept in the beginning..but really all things ARE energy..who's to say it cannot be manipulated with intent or consciousness of the user? All I know, is that it seems to work..whether this is a result of simple touch triggering a relaxation response in the client or actual energy transfer unblocking flow in a body (similar theory to acupuncture) we may not know for sure in my lifetime. 

But I do know I can feel it physically flow through my hands. Not for me to explain I guess. But if we ARE all energy (regardless of belief of souls etc) is it not possible that when our bodies die that we leave a bit of that energy behind? Or that our animals with their highly developed senses could not register it?

I prefer proof, but I have seen/experienced weird things in my life that could not be easily explained..and I'm a natural problem solver so not finding the "reason" for something bugs the HECK out of me...

If whatever you believe gives you comfort and does no one any harm...then go ahead and believe. If you choose to disbelieve, that is fine too...but there is a difference between being skeptical and being closed minded...refusing to see the POSSIBILITY of the existence of mysterious things is, IMO, sadly restricting. It's a dang grown up disease and I'll have NONE of it! LOL


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

scientific skepticism works like this..

there is no proof? then I don't know.

ok...you got some proof? is it really truly proof? let's check it out. 

no...it's not really truly proof? then Im back to I don't know.

ok this IS proof! therefore I know that this proof supports this idea...for now. 

so with ghosts...

show me the proof...let's check it out.


if scientists never questioned the accepted "facts" new discoveries would never be made. 

so I don't accept anything as fact...until its proven...and then its

"this is proven to be how it works. so far as we know."


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

The magician James Randi has offered a $1,000,000 prize to anyone who can prove any sort of paranormal phenomena or ability under controlled circumstances. So far, no one has claimed the prize even though it's been around for years. Personally, I'd sell out my momma for a million dollars. If I had some sort of paranormal ability or could prove some sort of paranormal phenomena, I'd take that challenge in a heartbeat. 

The challenge seems fair enough to me. Both parties agree upon the conditions of the test and both parties agree upon what constitutes a success and what constitutes a failure. Despite all of this, no one has claimed the prize.


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

Just to add to what Zim was saying, scientists are never out to "prove" anything is "true." The scientific method tests the "null hypothesis;" that is, as opposed to the "alternative hypothesis." The method used is to find a reason to reject or not reject the null hypothesis. Failing to reject the null hypothesis does not mean that it is accepted forever; it just means that something is open to further study. For example, if the null hypothesis is "all crows are black" then finding even a single crow that is a color other than black is sufficient to reject the null hypothesis. However, if the researcher finds no crows in a color other than black, then s/he has to report those results as being accurate within a certain (previously stated) acceptable margin of error because it is impossible for the researcher to investigate the color of all crows in the world and a non-black crow might exist.

Things like "the paranormal" or "God" are very hard to disprove using the scientific method, because no method currently exists to quantify either. If science uses the null hypothesis that "the paranormal" does not exist (using the operational definition that "the paranormal is comprised of ghosts, ESP, or telekenesis), then finding even a single instance of the paranormal would require rejection of the null hypothesis and would force the admission that the paranormal might exist under those conditions. If science uses the null hypothesis that "the paranormal" does exist, then science is forced to conclude that it might exist for the same conditions mentioned above. Either way, it's impossible for science to prove or to disprove the general existence of the paranormal because the scientific method is just not set up that way.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

I don't know whether ghosts exist or not, but I think Shakepeare said it best. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet, Act 1 scene 5.

We humans have a tendency to be very arrogant and think we know it all. That was not true back in the days when science denied the existence of germs and it isn't true today. There is still so much that we do not know and can't explain.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

skelaki said:


> I don't know whether ghosts exist or not, but I think Shakepeare said it best. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Hamlet, Act 1 scene 5.
> 
> We humans have a tendency to be very arrogant and think we know it all. That was not true back in the days when science denied the existence of germs and it isn't true today. There is still so much that we do not know and can't explain.


Science never "denied" the existence of germs. Scientists, and everyone else, were simply unaware of there existence until the mid 19th century.

So far as I know, there has never been a significant case where something believed by the population and denied by scientist was later proven to be true.

For the existence of ghost to be true and detectable (by any species), everything known about the nature of the universe, the laws of physics, and the natural world be invalidated.


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Science never "denied" the existence of germs. Scientists, and everyone else, were simply unaware of there existence until the mid 19th century.
> 
> So far as I know, there has never been a significant case where something believed by the population and denied by scientist was later proven to be true.
> 
> For the existence of ghost to be true and detectable (by any species), everything known about the nature of the universe, the laws of physics, and the natural world be invalidated.


Kasey, you seem to love to argue just for the sake of it. But if the scientific community has always accepted the existence of things such as germs (bacteria, etc) and since physicians, at least in the 19th century and probably before that, would have been part of the scientific community and should have known about germs and how to prevent at least some of the spreading why were there more deaths due to infection during the Civil War (and other wars) than due to injuries? By the way, I nver said it was believed by the general population just that the scientific community did not believe in it. It took the invention of the microscope and a few "rebel" (note the quotes) scientists to go against the current majority thought of the time before it became widely accepted.

I also never said I believed in ghosts. I have to admit to being skeptical. I just don't believe in blanket statements for anything that cannot be proved one way or the other. If you tell me gravity exists and I choose not to believe you and jump off a building obviously I'm going to be proved wrong (obviously I would not test you on that. LOL). Some things, such as ghosts, can be neither proved or disproved, at least with the knowledge and equipment we have today. So either opinion, belief or disbelief, is just that, opinion. At one time it was believed the atom could not be split. Of course eventually, with the right equipment, it was. Again I am not saying I believe in ghosts. Actually, while I think it might be kind of cool if they did exist, I doubt they do.


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## jcrattigan6557 (Jul 10, 2009)

I think it could be possible. If people claim to have seen ghost I don't see why a dog can't.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

jcrattigan6557 said:


> I think it could be possible. If people claim to have seen ghost I don't see why a dog can't.


If your dog claims to see a ghost, it will make you rich man. Talking dogs are worth a fortune.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

ok, i normally stay away from these topics, only for the fact that people already believe me to be half a bubble off a plumb....but, i have to throw my 2 cents worth in (for what it's worth)....i invite anyone of you (skeptics/non-believers) to come live in my house for a wk....by the time my "friends" get done, you will believe.....i have heard, felt and seen many (as i call them) no see-ums....ever house that i have lived in, i have asked the previous owners/tenants or landlords if they have had any one there (ghosts, i mean) and they say no....these entities have seemed to attach to me and my family (maybe i invite them?) and w/in about 2 wks of being in a new place, they're there.....how many stories do you want me to tell you? and how much time do you have? 

i see/feel them...as does my husband, sons, dogs, cats (that i have owned) and now both my D'sIL, who were both non believers/skeptics b/4 living w/ me....and, my oldest granddaughter has told me of a young girl that "lived" w/ us that informed my GD of a medical emergency w/ my husband that could have resulted in kidney shutdown if he had not gone to the doctor when he did (she was 4 at the time)

do dogs see ghosts?....yup, and if you "tune in" you will, too.....


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

tirluc said:


> .....how many stories do you want me to tell you?


Lots! I'll go get the popcorn. Ok, ready. Wait, have to turn the lights off. Ok, now I'm ready. Go!


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

shall i start w/ the (luckily) only "evil" one we have had? let's see, would have been '88, around May/June i think....my husband, oldest son and i were renting a house in Monument, CO....my husband was gone for a wk doing work in another city, which left me, my son and my GSD home....10 p.m. i'm watching "Harry and the Henderson's" and suddenly the house felt cold....Sir (my GSD) had been sleeping on the floor in the "doorway" of a little "hall" (made between a sofa and the wall) when suddenly he perks up looking straight my direction and growling from the toes up (you know the growl i mean...the one that says "you're really pissing me off")...my 1st thought was of all the "horror" stories you hear of dogs gone mad and attacking their owners till i realized 1) he was looking past me and 2) it was cold (felt like it was about 30 degrees, in June)....then i had this feeling that i wasn't alone and turned to look about the same time Sir was coming off the floor.....no sooner did he get up and me about 1/2 turned and it "settled"...both the house and Sir...

i started doing some asking around the neighbourhood; turns out about 7 yrs b/4 a young couple were living there when he OD'd on coccaine and made her watch while he mutilated their 10 mo son, killed her and then himself when the cops arrived....nobody lived in that house for more than3-4 mo at a stretch after that (we were there the longest at 4 1/2 mo)...everyone reported the same happenings (usually minus the dog)....

that was our evil one, tho we have had a few other "bad" ones along the way, as well

am i nutz? maybe, but i know what i felt and i know what i see all the time....

(oh, my husband called me about 5 min after and was ready to come home till i convinced him that Sir kept it at bay)


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Stories are fun and I love hearing ghost stories as much as anyone else. They don't prove anything though.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

More stories!


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

like i said, hulk, come live in my house for a wk....by the end of that time, i can just about guarantee you, you will believe.....both my D'sIL said the same thing until they lived w/ us for a bit....but now? yeah, they see them just as much/as well


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

I'd be more than happy to take you up on your offer. Where are you at?


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hulk, i'm in WI....the thing is, you would come (or go anywhere, for that matter) and not believe cuz you have closed your mind to the possibilities that they might actually be.....this is fine for some people, but in order to get "in touch" w/ them, you need to be totally open.....i, along w/ a lot of people, believe that all things are possible and that leaves the door open.... 

i have had "conversations" w/ some....do they actually talk to me? no, it's a feeling, but i do talk to them....Carla is an example (Brittany, here's another)....we moved into my previous resident just b/4 Thanksgiving 5 yrs ago....in Jan the following yr my GD and i (she and her parents lived w/ us) were getting ready for bed and she was kneeling on the floor after i brushed her teeth waiting for me and looking "thru" me, smiling....i asked what she was doing and got no response (at this time she was almost 4)...finally, i picked her up and we headed for bed (just an explaination; she slept in my bed as she was afraid to sleep in her own after telling me about "the man" that kept coming into her room)...now that i had her attention, i asked what she was looking at and she told me "the little girl"...basically, this little girl was somehow "connected" w/ "the man", about 6 yrs (judging by GD's description), dark haired, and wearing a long, light blue dress....she was (in GD words) "very nice, but "that man" was not and wanted to hurt little girls"....at this time she didn't know her name.....a few days later, GD was playing in the front room w/ her toys and "talking" to someone...i asked who, since it didn't sound like normal "toys talking" conversation, and she told me "Carla" (turns out this is the little girls name)....now remember, Carla is not a very common name today and for a not quite 4 yr old to come up w/ it is not very likely.....fast forward about 2 wks, hubby and i and GD are sleeping and i wake to hear crying....GD is sound asleep next to me, no wimpers, even, but i still hear it from the hall.....i calmly say (yes, out loud) "It's ok, Carla, he can't hurt you anymore...go to sleep" and it was quiet, settled, and that was it for the night.....


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

Coool. Ever do any research on the name or property?


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

tirluc said:


> hulk, i'm in WI....the thing is, you would come (or go anywhere, for that matter) and not believe cuz you have closed your mind to the possibilities that they might actually be.....this is fine for some people, but in order to get "in touch" w/ them, you need to be totally open.....i, along w/ a lot of people, believe that all things are possible and that leaves the door open....


That is where your logic falls apart. If you have to be a "believer" in order to see something then that's not scientific at all. I don't have to believe that the speed of light is approximately 186,000 miles/second in order to observe that. You can be of the opinion that the speed of light is most definitely not 186,000 miles/second, but repeated experiments will always bear out that number. 

You can't go into scientific tests with a bias. The best scientific tests are conducted under double blind conditions where neither the subjects, nor the testers know what results they're looking for before they conduct the test. If you say, "Come to my house and we'll prove that it's haunted, but you have to believe before you come," that's not a scientific statement.


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## KaseyT (May 7, 2008)

tirluc said:


> hulk, i'm in WI....the thing is, you would come (or go anywhere, for that matter) and not believe cuz you have closed your mind to the possibilities that they might actually be.....this is fine for some people, but in order to get "in touch" w/ them, you need to be totally open.....i, along w/ a lot of people, believe that all things are possible and that leaves the door open....
> 
> i have had "conversations" w/ some....do they actually talk to me? no, it's a feeling, but i do talk to them....Carla is an example (Brittany, here's another)....we moved into my previous resident just b/4 Thanksgiving 5 yrs ago....in Jan the following yr my GD and i (she and her parents lived w/ us) were getting ready for bed and she was kneeling on the floor after i brushed her teeth waiting for me and looking "thru" me, smiling....i asked what she was doing and got no response (at this time she was almost 4)...finally, i picked her up and we headed for bed (just an explaination; she slept in my bed as she was afraid to sleep in her own after telling me about "the man" that kept coming into her room)...now that i had her attention, i asked what she was looking at and she told me "the little girl"...basically, this little girl was somehow "connected" w/ "the man", about 6 yrs (judging by GD's description), dark haired, and wearing a long, light blue dress....she was (in GD words) "very nice, but "that man" was not and wanted to hurt little girls"....at this time she didn't know her name.....a few days later, GD was playing in the front room w/ her toys and "talking" to someone...i asked who, since it didn't sound like normal "toys talking" conversation, and she told me "Carla" (turns out this is the little girls name)....now remember, Carla is not a very common name today and for a not quite 4 yr old to come up w/ it is not very likely.....fast forward about 2 wks, hubby and i and GD are sleeping and i wake to hear crying....GD is sound asleep next to me, no wimpers, even, but i still hear it from the hall.....i calmly say (yes, out loud) "It's ok, Carla, he can't hurt you anymore...go to sleep" and it was quiet, settled, and that was it for the night.....


Do you believe Betty Hills story? Do you think she believes it?
http://www.kevincassell.com/blog/index.php?id=8&num=1
If not, why not? 
Why should we believe you but not her? What is the difference?

My point is I can find people who recount similar experiences with psychics, astrology, tarot cards, etc. Everyone believes they have had a paranormal experience and can describe it in detail. Every one insists that a open mind is required to experience the paranormal event. 

How is your experience different from theirs?


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## Sloth (Jul 29, 2008)

I've tried taking Sannabelle to all kinds of "haunted places". We seem to have a lot of them in Wisconsin. 

Belle has never acted strangely at any of them. I personally have never seen anything unusual at any of them. 

I'm one of the skeptics who "want to believe." But every haunted place I've gone to and mysterious thing I've seen I've been able to write off as reflections, gas, etc.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

KaseyT said:


> Do you believe Betty Hills story? Do you think she believes it?
> http://www.kevincassell.com/blog/index.php?id=8&num=1
> If not, why not?
> Why should we believe you but not her? What is the difference?
> ...


do i believe her story?...yes, i do....i have no reason not to and, IMO, there is alot out there to warrant believability.....i honestly believe that my sons and i watched a "show" one night while stacking hay for a friend....do i believe that i or anyone i know have been "abducted"? no.....i do have a lot of beliefs along the lines of "aliens", however, that would make some people think i belong in the nut house.....but, this is the reason i tend to stay w/ my dogs and not most people....they don't judge if you don't "fit the norm" (which i never could figure out what that is).....am i "playing w/ a full deck"? yeah, i know what's reality and what leaves room for beliefs....and i choose to believe that nothing is impossible.....that leaves me open for a lot of strange ideas

and where is her experience different? we're dealing w/ 2 different entities; one alien, the other "spiritual" (and i don't necessarily mean religous)....other than that, it's not....



Sloth said:


> I'm one of the skeptics who "want to believe." But every haunted place I've gone to and mysterious thing I've seen I've been able to write off as reflections, gas, etc.


then, believe and stop trying to write everything off w/ an explanation....yeah, i could do that, as well, i suppose, but i choose to believe we're not alone.....

another "happening"....i work graveyard shift at an assisted living home....i do the cleaning at night and am there in case someone needs something in the middle of the night....on night, about a yr-18 mo ago, i was mopping and saw a grey form go across the kitchen floor...didn't see it straight on, as often happens, and thought it was one of my dogs (they go to work w/ me) and was going to tell them to get in the other room when it dawned on me it was too small (and grey) to be my dogs.....figured i was just tired and "seeing things".....a few night later, i was watching some t.v. while waiting for floors to dry when i watched (for only about 2') a grey cat walk to a chair, jump on the arm, turn and look at me w/ the brightest green eyes, and proceed to clean itself (we don't _have_ a cat at this home) and then i was aware that my 2 of my dogs were also watching it.....it sat there for about 2 min w/ us watching and then it was gone.....as soon as it disappeared, both dogs went right back to sleep (me? i tried to see if i could feel where it had been)....6 mo go by and we had a staff meeting at which time i find out that the house manager had had her cat of 16 yrs PTS 2 wks b/4 the 1st "sighting"...when i asked her what her cat looked like _I_ described her cat to a tee (i actually told her what this one looked like) and i had never seen her cat.....was it her cat? don't know for sure...but i _do_ know what i saw and my 2 dogs saw her, too

oh, and my dogs don't "act strangely" (to them it's normal) except in times like w/ Sir.....


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

For some reason this thread came to mind when I went house hunting today. I spoke to my mother about purchasing a home and she had lots of advice. She's also very superstitious and had a hard time with the fact that in my state the homeowners do not need to disclose the fact that someone has died or was killed on the property.

So she told me to take my dogs with me when viewing houses.  I can't imagine what my realtor or the homeowners would think.

Then again... that may not be a bad thing because they may find things I'm not aware of.


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

tirluc said:


> then, believe and stop trying to write everything off w/ an explanation....yeah, i could do that, as well, i suppose, but i choose to believe we're not alone.....


A skeptic does not write off everything w/an explanation. A skeptic admits there are things that as of yet we cannot explain. A skeptic is actually someone who doesn't try to explain every little thing. People see something strange and don't have an explanation for it so they say it's a ghost. Never mind that ghosts have never, ever, ever been proven to exist, they write it off as a ghost. A skeptic says, "I don't know what that is, let's do some more study and try to find out." 

Just your assertion that you must believe in ghosts before you'll see them proves that seeing ghosts has far, far more to do with what's in your head than what is actually, physically going on in the world.


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## BrittanyG (May 27, 2009)

JustTess said:


> For some reason this thread came to mind when I went house hunting today. I spoke to my mother about purchasing a home and she had lots of advice. She's also very superstitious and had a hard time with the fact that in my state the homeowners do not need to disclose the fact that someone has died or was killed on the property.
> 
> So she told me to take my dogs with me when viewing houses.  I can't imagine what my realtor or the homeowners would think.
> 
> Then again... that may not be a bad thing because they may find things I'm not aware of.


Just say there are..mold sniffing dogs.


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## Erick Aguilar (Jun 9, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> A skeptic does not write off everything w/an explanation. A skeptic admits there are things that as of yet we cannot explain. A skeptic is actually someone who doesn't try to explain every little thing. People see something strange and don't have an explanation for it so they say it's a ghost. Never mind that ghosts have never, ever, ever been proven to exist, they write it off as a ghost. A skeptic says, "I don't know what that is, let's do some more study and try to find out."
> 
> Just your assertion that you must believe in ghosts before you'll see them proves that seeing ghosts has far, far more to do with what's in your head than what is actually, physically going on in the world.


There is NOTHING far far more to do with what's in our heads.

Before you attempt to keep defending yourself.. please, PLEASE study a bit of Neuro Linguistic Programming, i IMPLORE YOU to do so.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> A skeptic does not write off everything w/an explanation. A skeptic admits there are things that as of yet we cannot explain. A skeptic is actually someone who doesn't try to explain every little thing. People see something strange and don't have an explanation for it so they say it's a ghost. Never mind that ghosts have never, ever, ever been proven to exist, they write it off as a ghost. A skeptic says, "I don't know what that is, let's do some more study and try to find out."
> 
> Just your assertion that you must believe in ghosts before you'll see them proves that seeing ghosts has far, far more to do with what's in your head than what is actually, physically going on in the world.


hulk, i never said that you had to believe in them, i said that you had to be open to the possibility and not say that they absolutely do not exist.....i do try to look for other "explanations" for happenings, but i am also open to the fact that there may not be any other explanation other than the supernatural....we have a place here in WI that i have yet to go to (Sloth, do you know the place?) where at night while driving on the road you will see a lantern light appear at one point and move down a "track" to another point....at which time it disappears and shows up at the 1st spot, to repeat the process....the story is that there was a linesman checking track (i don't think the tracks are still there) and was struck, dragged and killed in that spot (by a train)....many people have seen it (i've talked w/ 5 or 6 that learned about it from others).....

in the words of the Cowardly Lion "I _do_ believe in spooks, I _do_ believe in spooks, I _do_, I _do_, I _do_, I _do_, I *do* believe in spooks!"


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

tirluc said:


> hulk, i never said that you had to believe in them, i said that you had to be open to the possibility and not say that they absolutely do not exist.....i do try to look for other "explanations" for happenings, but i am also open to the fact that there may not be any other explanation other than the supernatural....we have a place here in WI that i have yet to go to (Sloth, do you know the place?) where at night while driving on the road you will see a lantern light appear at one point and move down a "track" to another point....at which time it disappears and shows up at the 1st spot, to repeat the process....the story is that there was a linesman checking track (i don't think the tracks are still there) and was struck, dragged and killed in that spot (by a train)....many people have seen it (i've talked w/ 5 or 6 that learned about it from others).....
> 
> in the words of the Cowardly Lion "I _do_ believe in spooks, I _do_ believe in spooks, I _do_, I _do_, I _do_, I _do_, I *do* believe in spooks!"


As I pointed out, belief shouldn't matter. Lack of belief shouldn't matter. You may totally dismiss the idea that you can split the atom. That doesn't change the fact that you can. I base my lack of belief on the absolute failure over the course of several hundred years to produce any sort of proof of paranormal activity. As someone pointed out earlier, there's never been a situation where science has stepped in and confirmed that an ancient superstition was in fact true.



Erick Aguilar said:


> There is NOTHING far far more to do with what's in our heads.
> 
> Before you attempt to keep defending yourself.. please, PLEASE study a bit of Neuro Linguistic Programming, i IMPLORE YOU to do so.


Googled it. I found this quote - "Because of the absence of any firm empirical evidence supporting its sometimes extravagant claims, NLP has enjoyed little or no support from the scientific community." Seems like it might fall in the same category as the paranormal.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

but, if you figure there is only tangible explanations for everything that happens, no matter what may be behind it, and you are unwilling to believe that there are things out there that science cannot "test" for, than how is it possible for you to ever be open to what may really be? there are many things that have no basis for explanation but they still happen....science has been trying for a long time to prove the creation of life theory but that doesn't mean that the religious basis has no validity.....

as i have said, i know what i see/hear/feel when i do, and for me, that's all that matters....


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## Erick Aguilar (Jun 9, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> Googled it. I found this quote - "Because of the absence of any firm empirical evidence supporting its sometimes extravagant claims, NLP has enjoyed little or no support from the scientific community." Seems like it might fall in the same category as the paranormal.


You GOOGLED IT!?

OH MY GOD you made my day!!
You are just too cute!
You need to PARTICIPATE in NLP to understand it.

Do not believe what you believe in internet because for one thing... you don't believe in what you don't see under control, go to an intense course of NLP and your life will be happy (I went to a 7 day 9 hour NLP course, plus it's a subject in my school)


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

it's only lacking in the ones that don't experience it (or refuse to acknowledge that maybe they have).....to me, there's plenty of proof cuz of what i see/feel/hear....to you, and many others, that don't acknowledge the possibility there's none....it's all subjective.....


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

tirluc said:


> it's only lacking in the ones that don't experience it (or refuse to acknowledge that maybe they have).....to me, there's plenty of proof cuz of what i see/feel/hear....to you, and many others, that don't acknowledge the possibility there's none...*.it's all subjective..*...


That's the point. When it comes to the paranormal it's subjective. We can't say something exists if it exists only in the mind and view of the observer of said event and no place else. This is my issue with belief in the paranormal. No one ever tries to present any evidence that things like ghosts exist. You ask why they believe and they start citing story after story. But first hand observances like that are not good science. Otherwise we'd all agree that the speed of light in a vacuum is really, really fast and leave it at that. 

Science deals with things it can measure, study and recreate in controlled conditions. This is how scientists interact with nature and reality. Want to determine the makeup of a rock? Fine, let's see how it reacts to heat, how dense it is, how easily it scratches, etc...... These are all measurable. I can send the rock across the country and another researcher and they can perform the exact same tests and will get the exact same results. It's completely objective. It doesn't matter whether he thinks the rock is lead or gold, he'll have the same results I will.

The problem with ghosts and such is it's not objective, therefore it's unscientific. Someone who does believe in ghosts will see something, but someone who's a non-believer won't. Why is that? Is it possible that ghosts exist only in the mind? That doesn't mean they're not real to the person who sees them. It doesn't mean that person is stupid or ignorant or anything of the sort. It merely means that the ghost or apparition or whatever exists only in their mind.



Erick Aguilar said:


> You GOOGLED IT!?
> 
> OH MY GOD you made my day!!
> You are just too cute!
> ...


Yeah, what was I thinking using a commonly used research tool to actually research something. What a fool I was. What was I thinking?

You're right the Internet is full of falsehoods. Therefore I should not believe a single solitary thing I see on the Internet. The web site that says NLP is not backed up by any empirical studies is false. The expert psychologists it cites that claim NLP is bunk are clearly fibbing despite being well respected in their fields. The next web site on the list that says yes, we can indeed reprogram our brains and cites things about NLP that are completely and totally revolutionary in psychology yet are completely overlooked by professional psychologists is also wrong and incorrect. I'm so confused. Do I believe the experts who say it's bunk or the amateurs who say it's legit? Do I disbelieve them both? So confused.


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

hulkamaniac said:


> The problem with ghosts and such is it's not objective, therefore it's unscientific. Someone who does believe in ghosts will see something, but someone who's a non-believer won't. Why is that? Is it possible that ghosts exist only in the mind? That doesn't mean they're not real to the person who sees them. It doesn't mean that person is stupid or ignorant or anything of the sort. It merely means that the ghost or apparition or whatever exists only in their mind.


Our modern Western culture is very hung up on 'science' as being the supreme standard by which everything should be judged. We're a very 'rational' culture. That's why people have a hard time accepting that something is 'unscientific' without getting upset... because there is a negative stigma around the very concept. Because most of us have been raised to associate science = intelligent and spiritual = ignorant. It's not all necessarily like that, though.

It's not 'wrong' or 'stupid' to believe in the supernatural. The very fact that something is 'supernatural' in the first place puts it _outside the realm of science_. Science can't measure or prove anything that is not based in the physical realm. Therefore, just because someone says a belief are 'unscientific' doesn't mean they're bashing them, it's just a fact. As long as we are all on a physical plane, however, we can never know for _sure._

I've heard theories that ghosts are 'impressions' left by some people that other folks can pick up somehow. Like a shadow. Not alive or sentient, but a recorded moment in someone's life that left some kind of emotional residue in a place. Can such a thing exist? Who knows? Maybe.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> The problem with ghosts and such is it's not objective, therefore it's unscientific. Someone who does believe in ghosts will see something, but someone who's a non-believer won't. Why is that? Is it possible that ghosts exist only in the mind? That doesn't mean they're not real to the person who sees them. It doesn't mean that person is stupid or ignorant or anything of the sort. It merely means that the ghost or apparition or whatever exists only in their mind.


or is it that someone who believes is willing to accept that and the one that doesn't believe has to explain it away w/ something that they can believe in....they may see the same thing, but a person totally unbelieving is going to find _anything_ to make it something else (light reflection, the wind, etc)....ever felt a tap on the shoulder and there's no one there? ever hear a "voice" (whispers) and there's no one around? what about some of the recordings that have been gotten w/ the "background voices"....science will do everything it can to keep it from what it may really be, and anyone that can't believe that there's more out there will go w/ the science rather than accept that it might just be nonscientific.....

my GD has been quite upset w/ the fact that for 2 yrs now she has not been able to feel Carla in the house....and the reason she hasn't been able to is b/c she has had so many people tell her that she's "crazy" for believing in it in the 1st place....but, she still remembers what she saw, what she heard from Carla, etc. society is just so quick to say that they don't exist and so the person hearing/seeing/feeling it is nuts and they are ridiculed and shunned, kinda like the witch hunt ideas just not so bad anymore.....but, she's getting back there, she learning that it's ok to be who she is and if others don't believe it that's fine, too....


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

Pai said:


> Our modern Western culture is very hung up on 'science' as being the supreme standard by which everything should be judged. We're a very 'rational' culture. That's why people have a hard time accepting that something is 'unscientific' without getting upset... because there is a negative stigma around the very concept. Because most of us have been raised to associate science = intelligent and spiritual = ignorant. It's not all necessarily like that, though.
> 
> It's not 'wrong' or 'stupid' to believe in the supernatural. The very fact that something is 'supernatural' in the first place puts it _outside the realm of science_. Science can't measure or prove anything that is not based in the physical realm. Therefore, just because someone says a belief are 'unscientific' doesn't mean they're bashing them, it's just a fact. As long as we are all on a physical plane, however, we can never know for _sure._
> 
> I've heard theories that ghosts are 'impressions' left by some people that other folks can pick up somehow. Like a shadow. Not alive or sentient, but a recorded moment in someone's life that left some kind of emotional residue in a place. Can such a thing exist? Who knows? Maybe.


I'm not saying people who believe in ghosts are necessarily stupid. I'm just saying that IMO, the reality of it exists solely in their heads. As I said earlier, if you have to believe in something in order to see or experience it, then I think that tells you a lot about the subjectivity there.

I deal with what I can see, hear, feel, etc.... People say I should "open my mind" and believe other things. How open should my mind be? Should I stop at accepting ghosts? Poltergeists? Haunted items? Energy healers? Aliens? Alien abductions? Aliens already running our world? New World Order? A vast right wing conspiracy? Bigfoot? Nessie? Reptilians? Where does it stop?

Why is it unreasonable to demand proof before believing? I see a lot of people nowadays who believe in all kinds of things with no proof or evidence whatsoever. People seem to think it's completely unreasonable to demand proof before believing, but think it's perfectly reasonable to believe in whatever you want with no evidence whatsoever. In fact, they seem to think that this is a great thing because they have an "open mind." The attitude sometimes seems to be one of derision towards people who simply say, "show me the money."


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## LoupGarouTFTs (Oct 27, 2007)

I'm not saying that I'm a firm believer in ghosts, although I do believe that some people and events (and even animals) can leave their imprint on a place after they are gone. I think that it's a by odd, though, to wonder why it is necessary to have an "open mind" in order to be able to see them. We don't question the necessity of having vision to see or the necessity of having hearing to perceive sounds, so why question the need to have a precondition to be able to see ghosts? Some depictions of people who can perceive the paranormal show an "invisible" third eye--who is to say that there isn't another misunderstood "organ" of the body that enables people or animals to see ghosts? After all, the human appendix no longer serves any visible purpose; maybe there is something else that serves a similar unknown purpose th that we simply have not detected.

There is no way that we already know everything that there is to know about existence. To say so is nothing more than all-too-human arrogance. I'd rather leave my mind open to possibilities, rather than saying that everything must be proven before I believe in it. Granted, I like to see ten years of actual use in the market before I try any new drug on my dogs--I learned the hard way about new drugs once, a long time ago--but in terms of ghosts or dragons and the like, why not be open to possibilities? It certainly hurts no one and adds just a bit of interest to life.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> I'm not saying people who believe in ghosts are necessarily stupid. I'm just saying that IMO, the reality of it exists solely in their heads. As I said earlier, if you have to believe in something in order to see or experience it, then I think that tells you a lot about the subjectivity there.
> 
> I deal with what I can see, hear, feel, etc.... People say I should "open my mind" and believe other things. How open should my mind be? Should I stop at accepting ghosts? Poltergeists? Haunted items? Energy healers? Aliens? Alien abductions? Aliens already running our world? New World Order? A vast right wing conspiracy? Bigfoot? Nessie? Reptilians? Where does it stop?
> 
> Why is it unreasonable to demand proof before believing? I see a lot of people nowadays who believe in all kinds of things with no proof or evidence whatsoever. People seem to think it's completely unreasonable to demand proof before believing, but think it's perfectly reasonable to believe in whatever you want with no evidence whatsoever. In fact, they seem to think that this is a great thing because they have an "open mind." The attitude sometimes seems to be one of derision towards people who simply say, "show me the money."


like i said, you don't have to believe in something for it to be reality but you do need to open your mind (and stop trying to explain away, scientifically) for it to be there...if you're going to have to have a scientific reason for that nick-knack to suddenly fall off the shelf (the one that's been sitting there forever and not moved) when there has been no one near it (that you can see), or that brush of something against you is just the wind, or whatever, then you will never be open to the possibility that there are things that science just can't prove....

where does the "open-mindedness" stop? who cares? what/who's to say that Nessie and Bigfoot don't exist....many have claimed to have seen them both, along w/ aliens and having been abducted....just b/c science can't prove the existence doesn't mean it doesn't exist.....

if you have to have proof, that's fine and dandy...but the one thing that really tweaks my melon are the people that have to have the proof looking at the ones that choose to believe in all things as being an escapey from the insane asylum and like we need to be put on mental meds to "straighten out our minds"....i'll take the supernatural, thank you, it's safer....

well, said, LoupGarou, i guess that's what i've been trying to say all along...


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

tirluc said:


> like i said, you don't have to believe in something for it to be reality but you do need to open your mind (and stop trying to explain away, scientifically) for it to be there...if you're going to have to have a scientific reason for that nick-knack to suddenly fall off the shelf (the one that's been sitting there forever and not moved) when there has been no one near it (that you can see), or that brush of something against you is just the wind, or whatever, then you will never be open to the possibility that there are things that science just can't prove....


I don't open myself to the possibility that there are things science can't prove. I do believe that there are things that happen in the world that science cannot explain as of yet. Our knowledge of the world around us is far from complete. Science is the best way to explain our natural world. In fact, it's proven to be the only rational way to do so. Our ancestors in ancient times chalked up things like changing weather and crop growth to all kinds of forces and deities. Doesn't it make much more sense to look at these things in terms of pressure fronts, types of clouds, nutrients in the soil, etc....? If my ancestors wanted to grow potatoes, they had to simply hope the great deities in the sky blessed their efforts. Now, if I want to grow potatoes, I can perform a soil analysis and add whatever nutrients I need in order to grow the potatoes I want. Science makes this better, not worse.



> where does the "open-mindedness" stop? who cares? what/who's to say that Nessie and Bigfoot don't exist....many have claimed to have seen them both, along w/ aliens and having been abducted....just b/c science can't prove the existence doesn't mean it doesn't exist.....


It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to prove a negative. I think we would all agree that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. Can we prove it? No. Does our failure to prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist mean that it really does exist? No. The complete lack of evidence for the Flying Spaghetti Monster leads a reasonable human being to conclude that such a critter is highly unlikely to exist. 



> if you have to have proof, that's fine and dandy...but the one thing that really tweaks my melon are the people that have to have the proof looking at the ones that choose to believe in all things as being an escapey from the insane asylum and like we need to be put on mental meds to "straighten out our minds"....i'll take the supernatural, thank you, it's safer....


The thing is, no one has proof. No one has ever provided any proof. If such things do exist is not unreasonable to ask for proof? If I told you I owned a cocker spaniel and you didn't believe me, I could easily provide you proof. I could send pictures, hair, fecal samples, etc..... You go into a lab and verify that none of these things were doctored and that they do belong to a cocker spaniel. Why has no one provided any proof of ghosts? Where is the evidence? Is it unreasonable to ask for evidence? I don't think so.

I'm not saying people who experience the paranormal are crazy, I'm just saying that it really is in their heads. When you state at the beginning, "You won't see it unless you open your mind," then you prove right from the start that seeing a ghost is based largely, if not entirely, in your mind. That's all I'm saying. You see ghosts, goblins, big foot, nessie, ufos, etc..... because that's what you expect to see in your mind. It's like two people seeing a shooting star. One person chalks it up to a meteor flying through the atmosphere and someone else chalks it up to an alien spacecraft. It's all in the mind as to what they see. Nothing more and nothing less.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

no, i know the difference between a meteor and a alien craft...they move totally different and a meteor can't stop in mid flight...

once again it's a case of there will be no changes (neither you or anyone else to close my mind [or others] or mine and others to open yours [and others])...
as for proof, no one has proof that scientifically others can grasp...doesn't mean there isn't proof, just that some are not willing to accept that as proof....

scientifically explain to me the glass that fell off a counter after having sat there all day, about 2" back from the edge and nothing near it....we were in the other room when it hit the floor and broke...no wind rushing thru the room, no dogs in the room, no earth shakes, etc....or, the bathroom light coming on at 2:00 am when everyone is asleep....these have happened in my house.....

as i have said...i know what i see/feel/hear....


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

tirluc said:


> no, i know the difference between a meteor and a alien craft...they move totally different and a meteor can't stop in mid flight...


Of course. Silly me.



> once again it's a case of there will be no changes (neither you or anyone else to close my mind [or others] or mine and others to open yours [and others])...
> as for proof, no one has proof that scientifically others can grasp...doesn't mean there isn't proof, just that some are not willing to accept that as proof....


Again, show me the proof. I've asked several times in this thread. Show me the proof. So far there isn't any proof at all. It's not that I'm not willing to accept proof, it's that no proof has been presented. 



> scientifically explain to me the glass that fell off a counter after having sat there all day, about 2" back from the edge and nothing near it....we were in the other room when it hit the floor and broke...no wind rushing thru the room, no dogs in the room, no earth shakes, etc....or, the bathroom light coming on at 2:00 am when everyone is asleep....these have happened in my house.....
> 
> as i have said...i know what i see/feel/hear....


You've convinced me. Must've been a ghost. If I can't explain it, it must be a ghost of course. Never mind that it could've been any one of a dozen things (a wind, the house settling, an air current, etc......) if we have no scientific explanation then we need to attribute it to a ghost rather and simply say, "this needs further investigation."


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

hulkamaniac said:


> Of course. Silly me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


again, as i have said, unless it is scientifically proven, you won't believe in supernatural beings....you can't have something unexplainable happen to you and accept it as "non-scientific" happenings...that's fine, for you, but i choose to believe otherwise....as for the glass falling off the counter, i already told you there was no wind, no one in the room, and a settling house does not shift so much that a glass would fall off....and i doubt that wind,settling, air current of any sort is going to turn on a bathroom light....can i guarantee it was ghosts? no, but you can't prove that it wasn't, either, and neither can science.....and so i choose to believe.....as you choose not to....


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## hulkamaniac (Feb 11, 2009)

tirluc said:


> again, as i have said, unless it is scientifically proven, you won't believe in supernatural beings....you can't have something unexplainable happen to you and accept it as "non-scientific" happenings...that's fine, for you, but i choose to believe otherwise....as for the glass falling off the counter, i already told you there was no wind, no one in the room, and a settling house does not shift so much that a glass would fall off....and i doubt that wind,settling, air current of any sort is going to turn on a bathroom light....can i guarantee it was ghosts? no, but you can't prove that it wasn't, either, and neither can science.....and so i choose to believe.....as you choose not to....


Well, the supernatural is by definition non-scientific.


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