# What does a "cut coat" look like?



## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I was brushing Soro and I noticed some single hairs sticking up through his usually flat fur. So slight that if you're not up close and personal he looks like the smooth, shiny dog that he is. My thoughts:

1. The furminator is actually 'cutting his coat,' though I have no idea what a cut coat looks like. 

2. He's blowing his coat, which should be happening around now (and I'm brushing out obscene amounts of hair.

If it's the first one I will swallow all my words because I'm a fan of furminators. But I highly doubt it's the brush because I feel like I would have noticed this before... I brush him 2-3 times a week.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Well considering the furminator is basically a clipper blade on a handle, number 1 is very likely possible. If you can get a picture of what you are referring to that may help to diagnose what the issue is.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)




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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

That is what Tyler's coat looks like when he is shedding.... and he usually has a very flat coat. I don't use a furminator, so I am not sure if thats what could be causing it either.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

+two said:


> That is what Tyler's coat looks like when he is shedding.... and he usually has a very flat coat. I don't use a furminator, so I am not sure if thats what could be causing it either.


.......
SAME DOG. I'll bet those hairs are actually acute sensory devices that Tyler and Soro use to communicate with each other.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Looks like damaged coat to me. Shedding coat sheds out, it doesn't stick out, still attached. 2-3X a week using a Furminator is WAY WAY too much, and it will, and apparently is damaging coat. Those hairs are likey hairs that were cut shorter awhile ago, and as they grow back (being guard hairs and not undercoat) when they grow back grow back like this, just as if you were to shave your dog, you would see regrowth like this..but it would be more obvious because the whole coat would look this way. The Furminator should not be used more than once a week tops, for no longer than 15 minutes, and you should not rake over the same spot more than 3-4 times. Experiment, and stop using it for 3 months. Use a classic, fine stripping knife instead to card the coat with. Look up youtube videos to see how to card correctly.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Graco22 said:


> Looks like damaged coat to me. Shedding coat sheds out, it doesn't stick out, still attached. 2-3X a week using a Furminator is WAY WAY too much, and it will, and apparently is damaging coat. Those hairs are likey hairs that were cut shorter awhile ago, and as they grow back (being guard hairs and not undercoat) when they grow back grow back like this, just as if you were to shave your dog, you would see regrowth like this..but it would be more obvious because the whole coat would look this way. The Furminator should not be used more than once a week tops, for no longer than 15 minutes, and you should not rake over the same spot more than 3-4 times. Experiment, and stop using it for 3 months. Use a classic, fine stripping knife instead to card the coat with. Look up youtube videos to see how to card correctly.


Shucks! Guess I can't judge by luster alone 
I'm just glad I'm not showing him. 

But alright, I'll start limiting my use of the furminator and I'll look into a stripping knife. This?









I also use a pin brush and the zoom groom.... So it would be okay for me to use those two, and the stripping knife on a regular basis? 

The thing is I've been using the furminator regularly on him for years (at least 2.5). Then again, even when he was 12 weeks old from the shelter he was unusually shiny, so maybe he just has a very forgiving coat to begin with.

Thanks Graco!


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Yep, thats it. Youtube videos on "carding with a stripping knife" to see how to correctly card the coat. This will not damage coat like the furminator does, but will still shed him out good. Yes, you can keep using the pin brush and zoom groom, though IMO the pin brush is a waste of time unless he just likes the scratching/massage from it. Its useless on this kind of coat, and meant for long coated dogs detangling. Yes, shine doesn't necessarily mean there isn't damaged coat. Furminators should come with a warning about overuse...because so many people overuse them..they are best using once a week TOPS, 15 minutes tops. When you use it, take a swipe, and look at the hair while its still stuck in the blade..you should see ONLY gray/light colored fuzzy undercoat. If you see even a single coarse black hair, THAT is topcoat, and its cutting it. I know you will see lots of those hairs in the blade. ;-) You can use the stripping knife a few times a week, IF you are using it correctly. However, once a week is really all you need to do.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

The thing is, I've never seen guard hairs when I use the furminator. I won't say what comes out is 100% pure undercoat, but I definitely never saw enough guard hairs come out for me to question it. If anything, the zoom groom pulls out guard hairs and I've never seen undercoat come out when I use that. The pin brush really doesn't do much after I use the first two, besides sweep up any leftovers. But with that I find a mix of guard and undercoat. My non-professional thinking was 'Hm, I should use all these brushes to target the different coat layers.'

You might have seen me post this photo before, but in case you haven't it shows what hairs come out with what brush for me:









EDIT: Actually, looking at my own photo just now, maybe the thinner, long bits in the furminator pile are developing guard hairs? They're definitely not as coarse as his actual guard hairs, but could that be what's causing the sticking-up problem?


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Gracco, Not to steal the thread or anything, but what do you think of these kinds of blades for brushing dead coat out??
















We have one of these at work and it seems to work really well on the dogs that are loosing thick winter coats and what not, but could it also be causing damage to the coats?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm also wondering what the different between a shedding blade and a stripping knife is. The former seems to be much easier to find. If it comes down to it I'll order a stripping knife online, but if they basically do the same thing I'll get a shedding blade from Petsmart and use that as an excuse to take Soro out


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Ok, couple things. Yes, there are lots of guard hairs in that wad from the furminator. Of course, there is undercoat too, but all those straight long coarse hairs are topcoat/guardhairs. I can't tell whether they are pulled out or cut from the pic, because you have to look at each hair and see if the end was pulled from the folicle (will be wider and bulb shaped at the end if it was pulled from folicle, or just straight if cut) Also, the furminator when used as often as you were using it, will damage guard hairs that it doesn't necessarily pull out...this can also attribute to the sticky outies in the coat you are seeing. It sort of strips the hair, like if you were to take your fingernails and firmly pinch a strand of your hair, you will see it curl up and look "frayed" for lack of a better word..The furminator will do that to the coat. When you use a stripping knife, you use it like a rake, at an angle (you want the knife to be as parallel to to the body as you can get it, and still rake out coat...NOT perpendicular, and be sure to dull the knife first, as some will come fairly sharp...don't ask me why..drives me crazy dulling knifes to use on my terrier) 

The brush on the far left is actually a slicker brush, NOT a pin brush. It however, is fine to use to remove the loose coat you have on the dog as a finishing touch. The zoom groom is a great tool for shedding coats, because it will not break or damage topcoat. However, you will see it get coat out..I have a feeling that all those guard hairs you see from it, are hairs loosened or pulled/broken by the Furminator, as you use that first correct? However, keep in mind that guard hairs shed also..but you can tell if its a shedded hair or a cut/broken hair as above..sometimes the shedded hair will have a little bit of white skin where it came out of the folicle also. 

The pics of the shedding blades. Yes, those are great to use on short, doublecoats also. However, steer clear of legs and heads, as it will hurt. The single "blade" is the best IMO, and the one with the circles is not ideal for getting alot of coat out. However, I prefer a stripping knife. (Also be sure to pull the skin tight when you are carding with the stripping knife, just like you would with the Furminator, forgot that part.) It certainly doesn't hurt to have a lot of tools to use, and these shedding blades are pretty cheap, so I would say if you find one, grab it and give it a try. When they are new, they may cut or strip some hair, but not like a Furminator will. With shedding tools, the older and more used/duller they are, the better, as they will do less damage to the topcoat. 

Yeah, just looked at the pile from the Furminator..lots of topcoat in that...It should be nothing but the cotton fine undercoat...and theres plenty of coarse straight hairs in there..and the other piles from the other brushes look like a mix of different length hairs..which likely means coat was cut. I am interested to see in a few months of not using the furminator the difference in your dog's coat..Love for you to keep this thread updated!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

If you don't want to go with an expensive stripping knife (not all are expensive), then you can pick up a fine toothed hacksaw blade and handle (which is no more than 6 bucks I believe at a hardware store), must be fine toothed though, and use that. I use that on all my dogs, it is used just like a stripping knife, just cheaper.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Graco22 said:


> Ok, couple things. Yes, there are lots of guard hairs in that wad from the furminator. Of course, there is undercoat too, but all those straight long coarse hairs are topcoat/guardhairs. I can't tell whether they are pulled out or cut from the pic, because you have to look at each hair and see if the end was pulled from the folicle (will be wider and bulb shaped at the end if it was pulled from folicle, or just straight if cut) Also, the furminator when used as often as you were using it, will damage guard hairs that it doesn't necessarily pull out...this can also attribute to the sticky outies in the coat you are seeing. It sort of strips the hair, like if you were to take your fingernails and firmly pinch a strand of your hair, you will see it curl up and look "frayed" for lack of a better word..The furminator will do that to the coat. When you use a stripping knife, you use it like a rake, at an angle (you want the knife to be as parallel to to the body as you can get it, and still rake out coat...NOT perpendicular, and be sure to dull the knife first, as some will come fairly sharp...don't ask me why..drives me crazy dulling knifes to use on my terrier)
> 
> *The brush on the far left is actually a slicker brush, NOT a pin brush*. It however, is fine to use to remove the loose coat you have on the dog as a finishing touch. The zoom groom is a great tool for shedding coats, because it will not break or damage topcoat. However, you will see it get coat out..I have a feeling that all those guard hairs you see from it, are hairs loosened or pulled/broken by the Furminator, as you use that first correct? However, keep in mind that guard hairs shed also..but you can tell if its a shedded hair or a cut/broken hair as above..sometimes the shedded hair will have a little bit of white skin where it came out of the folicle also.
> 
> ...



Whoops! My bad, I always forget the name of the slicker brush ! 
I'll order a stripping knife tonight and see how things go. Thanks!



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> If you don't want to go with an expensive stripping knife (not all are expensive), then you can pick up a fine toothed hacksaw blade and handle (which is no more than 6 bucks I believe at a hardware store), must be fine toothed though, and use that. I use that on all my dogs, it is used just like a stripping knife, just cheaper.


Thanks! I already have my eyes on a cheap one on ebay, but that's handy information!


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

grab a shedding blade sold for horses at a feed store; exact same thing but cheaper. Actually, I find most of the horse grooming tools to be the same things but cheaper-- you can look for the foal/pony size to get a dog-sized tool. I use a curry comb in Chester and just got the soft foal one for $2; sold at the pet store for $7-8 with a dog logo


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

ChaosIsAWeim said:


> If you don't want to go with an expensive stripping knife (not all are expensive), then you can pick up a fine toothed hacksaw blade and handle (which is no more than 6 bucks I believe at a hardware store), must be fine toothed though, and use that. I use that on all my dogs, it is used just like a stripping knife, just cheaper.


I disagree. A stripping knife should NOT be sharp. The grooves in it are only for gripping hair when you are hand stripping coat on a terrier, etc..However, in this instance, it is just going to be a carding tool, but still needs to be dull. A hacksaw blade is sharp, and meant to cut things. NOT for shedding out dogs without cutting or damaging the topcoat. And a classic stripping knife is only a few dollars..they are not expensive by any means.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

The best trick I found for lab type coats (which are the worst IMO for shedding) is to bath them, use the zoom groom and scrub the coat. Then, rinse well. Apply conditioner and scrub more, this seems to work quite well to loosen up the hair and get it out, and it'll rinse away. A good blow dryer gets the rest out and you're good for an hour or two before that short hair comes out again.

I like my hairy dogs, they still shed but it comes out with the comb/brush and balls up, unlike the pins that short haired dogs loose....


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

My stripping knife should be arriving in the next two days and I just want to make sure I've read everything properly... 
I actually couldn't find many good videos, but this one seemed helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GEUW1qd6mQ&feature=related
The stripping bit is in the end.

I've heard of many different ways to dull the knife and I'm thinking of running it over concrete and/or cutting some cardboard with it. Is it the tips that you want to dull or the grooves between the tips that will potentially cut the coat?

In the videos that I've seen, the groomers work the stripping knives in very small sections at a time with sort of a yanking motion. Is that what I'm supposed to do over the entirety of my dog? Or can I pull it in longer sweeps? (with the blade near-parallel to the body and the skin tight, of course).

Also, I never really asked about this but is there a way to get the super short fur on the legs? I've always just skipped over them.

Otherwise, it'll probably be trial and error for me. I'll look at what's coming out and make sure it's pulled hair and not cut hair, before I go over all of Soro 
Thanks!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Bordermom said:


> The best trick I found for lab type coats (which are the worst IMO for shedding) is to bath them, use the zoom groom and scrub the coat. Then, rinse well. Apply conditioner and scrub more, this seems to work quite well to loosen up the hair and get it out, and it'll rinse away. A good blow dryer gets the rest out and you're good for an hour or two before that short hair comes out again.
> 
> I like my hairy dogs, they still shed but it comes out with the comb/brush and balls up, unlike the pins that short haired dogs loose....


I'll pull out the zoom groom next time he gets a bath, thanks!
My problem is there is no hose where I'm living now, but I want to try to get one bath in before the cold weather sets in!


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Canyx said:


> My stripping knife should be arriving in the next two days and I just want to make sure I've read everything properly...
> I actually couldn't find many good videos, but this one seemed helpful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GEUW1qd6mQ&feature=related
> The stripping bit is in the end.
> 
> ...


That is awesome that you have a knife on the way. Ok, let me clear up some, think I may have confused you. You are not going to pull coat with the knife like you would on a harsh coated terrier. You are going to card with the knife. Carding is a term for raking the coat to remove only the undercoat. You won't pinch hair and pull it out, as that would hurt your dog, unlike a terrier. I will try to find a video for you and post it. 

Yes, you want to dull both the edges and the teeth of the knife. Cardboard is great, also cutting thru a block of wood..(it won't actually cut thru wood, but you can make a groove in the wood, just keep sawing at it. Using it to "dig" up some gardening area with soil and rocks, etc works too, and I have done all the above on the same knifes to dull them up. And the more you use it, the duller it will get, which is great too. I am off to find a carding video so you can see how to use it.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Here is one of my videos, on a golden and with a different knife (different knife for a different coat) but you can see how to hold the knife, what angle, and the motion, also pulling the skin tight. Same thing with your dog. Your dog won't have the fluffy stuff on this golden, so all you need to watch is the very beginning where I am doing the back of the neck, etc. Thats what you will do on your dog, all over the body. No head, ears, belly or throat though. Use the rubber grooma thing there. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6vy4NnsrTQ

Oh, before I forget, no, don't use a knife on the short hair on the legs. It will be too rough. Use your rubber curry. Rubber tools are all I will use on areas like that because metal tools are too harsh for the thin coat there, and can hurt the dog and rough up the skin.

lol, I just looked at the video you posted. Lisa Leady rocks..she's actually a good friend of mine.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Graco22 said:


> That is awesome that you have a knife on the way. Ok, let me clear up some, think I may have confused you. You are not going to pull coat with the knife like you would on a harsh coated terrier. You are going to card with the knife. Carding is a term for raking the coat to remove only the undercoat. You won't pinch hair and pull it out, as that would hurt your dog, unlike a terrier. I will try to find a video for you and post it.
> 
> Yes, you want to dull both the edges and the teeth of the knife. Cardboard is great, also cutting thru a block of wood..(it won't actually cut thru wood, but you can make a groove in the wood, just keep sawing at it. Using it to "dig" up some gardening area with soil and rocks, etc works too, and I have done all the above on the same knifes to dull them up. And the more you use it, the duller it will get, which is great too. I am off to find a carding video so you can see how to use it.


THANK YOU GRACO.
I'm so glad I asked first. Or there'd be follow up threads titled "How to stop my dog running from the stripping knife" 

I knew I forgot something too... I meant to ask what the difference between terms like stripping, carding and (I think there was one more I saw commonly used) were. I assumed they weren't interchangeable.

And out of curiosity, how different is a terrier's coat that it is the only breed group that is stripped? (or am I wrong about that too?)


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Can I just say I love this thread and that Graco is pretty much amazing/awesome. 

I would like to know more about a terrier coat as well. I know next to nothing about grooming but would like to! I know my Boys could use a good brushing/grooming, I just don't know how to do it or what to use! How do I find that out? 

Please, Graco, share your wisdom.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

You can simply rub your hand over the lower legs to remove hair. I use a grooming stone [aka soft pumice] on lower legs. 

Combine the warm bath BorderMom suggested with a rub down every few minutes to dry the dog and you will get out gobs of hair. If you keep it up until the dog is completely dry there won't be much hair shed for at least a week. Remember to rub the head, face and lower legs as well.

I would be lazy and not brush/comb/rub her dry after a bath and you sure could tell. She would be super fuzz dog until I did a proper job.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Aw thanks guys. Just trying to help. Harsh coated terrier are not the only breeds that are stripped. German wirehaired pointers and wolfhounds, brussels griffon, wire coated dachsunds, are some other breeds but there are more. The difference in these coats and say poodle coats is that the hair grows to a certain length and then the follicle goes dormant. The hair is dead. A new hair will not grow in that dormant follicle until the old hair is pulled out. This is why when one of these breeds is clipped, over time the color and texture of the coat is "ruined". Black will end up grey, red will be buff, etc. And the coat is soft and curly. The reason is that the only coat growing is undercoat. When a wire hair is cut instead of pulled the piece of hair stays in the folicle and a new one doesnt grow out of it. 

Carding is a term that means removing the undercoat. There are many tools that you can use for this but it is usually refered to with use of a stripping knife or Furminator.
Handstripping is a general term that means pulling the harsh coat out, whether by fingers, knife, stone, etc
Plucking is handstripping but to me its unsing fingers and not a tool. Others may have a different definition.
Rolling a coat is a process of handstripping where you are pulling, or "working" the coat regularly. Most stripped breeds need at least weekly work for an hour or more, and the dogs you see being show may be worked on daily. The goal in rolling the coat is to have layers in the coat so that the dog always looks show ready and never is the coat all "blown" at one time. Blown meaning at the longer length and readyto be pulled. You will have one layer every week that is blown, a layer that will be blown in a week or so, a layer that is shorter, and a layer just growing in. You can work as many layers into the coat as you want or need, but at least 3 layers is ideal for tight coated dogs like Airedales, welsh, schnauzer, etc that have tight short jackets. And of course every individual dog grows at adifferent pace so each dog must be assessed accordingly and the grooming sessions tweaked for that particular dog.
If you dont roll the coat, then eventually ( might be 3weeks or 3 months depending on the breed and individual) the entire coat will be blown and you have to start over. That fastest way is to just pull all the coat, usually ending up with a bald dog. Then in a week or 2 as the new growth comes in you start pulling the longest hairs again to get the coat rolling. 
Thats the basics. Feel free to ask more. Most pet owners dont have their dogs stripped as its very time consuming and few groomers know how to do it. It is also expensive if you do find a groomer that knows how. I charge $70 an hour as it is very labor intensive and wears and tears on a persons body and joints. I hope that helped explain some and didnt bore you too much.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

+two said:


> Can I just say I love this thread and that Graco is pretty much amazing/awesome.
> 
> I would like to know more about a terrier coat as well. I know next to nothing about grooming but would like to! I know my Boys could use a good brushing/grooming, I just don't know how to do it or what to use! How do I find that out?
> 
> Please, Graco, share your wisdom.


What kind of dogs do you have? If they are mixes, what breed does their coats most resemble. I can tell you what tools are best if I know what the coats are.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Graco22 said:


> What kind of dogs do you have? If they are mixes, what breed does their coats most resemble. I can tell you what tools are best if I know what the coats are.


I have two boys, both mixes. 

Tyler is an American Pit Bull Terrier mix. He doesn't really shed at all, and when I do use the shedding blade or rubber curry comb, I rarely get much up. What does come up looks like whole entire hairs. His coat is very short on his chest and legs and just slightly longer on the top of his back. 

Ozzie is a Bloodhound / Shar-Pei mix. His coat resembles a shar-pei more than a bloodhound. It is light/medium coarse and needly. He seems to have two different types of coat, but still very short coated. I use the same shedding blade / rubber curry on him. He sheds a lot (well, a lot for me xD).

Here are my Boys . . . 








THANK YOU GRACO! (and Canyx for letting me hijak)


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Oh they are both so cute! I think a rubber brush/curry is going to work best for you. The bloodhound mix is also the ideal candidate for the furminator, used lightly, no more than 15 minutes a week, and only on the thick areas on the back and neck. I don't like the Grooma type rubber brushes unless used on a wet dog in the tub. I prefer the curry type rubber horse brush. They work better IMO. Yes, your dogs will shed out the long, full sized coarse hairs, and little to no undercoat on the pit mix, with more fuzzy soft undercoat on the bloodhound mix. Cute dogs, love the pitX's ears!


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

This is the type of rubber curry I use in my salon on coats like your dogs', +two. They are cheap, and work much better than the round ones with pointy cone shaped teeth (called Grooma's, etc.).

http://www.horse.com/item/rubber-curry/BJI17/


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Great thread! Graco, would you also recommend those rubber curries on a Pug, or is there something else that would work better?


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks again, Graco. I really, really appreciate it. Can you recommend a shampoo? Do you use conditioner on dogs? (see how ignorant I am... :blush How often would you recommend bathing them? 

If I brought my dogs to a groomer, what would they do? Shampoo and brush? Or is there more that can be done. I would like to see more of a 'shine' on my dogs.... 

I use the Kong Zoom Groom, but I can see how the horse curry would work better on a dry dog. I was just at the tack shop too! AH! (making a flirt pole) I will have to pick one up soon... 

Would you not recommend a stripping knife for my dogs? 

How about the thin hairs on the legs and face? Is toweling the best way to clean those up?


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Yes Kuma I woukd recommend the rubber curry for pugs too and thats what I use on them in my salon. There are so so so many quality shampoos out there its hard to recommend just one. I have been using Green Groom and EZ Groom shampoos for years and love them all. You cant get them in stores as they are sold for professionals but you can find them online. In stores I like Perfect Coat, Tropiclean, and Veterinarys Best products. I am not a fan of Biogroom stuff because I dont like the low dilution ratios. I rarely condition a short haired breed. The coat is shed out before the coat is old and damaged enough to benefit from conditioners IMO. I find that conditioners do very little for the skin as it is rinsed off, and then any conditoning qualities are rinsed along with it. However if it makes you feel better to use conditioner go for it. Just be sure you are rinsing it ALL well, as residue left can be drying and irritating to the skin. Conditioners should always be diluted also, and take a long time to rinse out. My favorite conditioner is Coat Handler. You can bathe your dogs as often as you want to. Weekly, biweekly, monthly or once a year. As long as you are using quality products and rinsing it ALL out. Showdogs are sometimes bathed dailyduring prime show season and look at their coats. I actually find that dogs bathed often like weekly have healthier, shinier coats.
I cant say what all groomers would do with your dogs, but in my salon they would be washed, hand blowdried which loosens and removes alot of shedding coat. They would then be brushed and deshedded, foot pads shaved, nails dremeled and ears cleaned. Then they would get a spritz of a coat spray to finish the job and shine em up. A final blow off with the dryer to get rid of all the loosened coat and they would be done.  If they have longer scraggly hair on the backend, belly, or underside of tail I also thinning shear that off to clean up the outline of the dog. 

No, I would not recommend a stripping knife for your dogs. It *might* work on your bloodhoundx, but without seeing te coat in person its hard for me to tell you to spend the money on one. You could certainly try one if you came across one and wanted to give it a shot. It will not work well on the pug tho Kuma. 

For the hairs on the face, ears and legs you can use the rubber curry also, because its very gentle. Hold the ear flat in your hand when dong tem, and use the curry in back and forth and circular motions, as well as a flicking motion to get te most hair out.


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

Wow.... thanks for all the great, useful information. If you ever need advice on... uhm... well. Nevermind. XD


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## hast (Aug 17, 2011)

Thank you! I just learned a lot. What would you use for a rottweiler? I bet you'll get a laugh when I tell you that one reason I wanted a rottie was that I didn't believe they'd shed much. LOL. My one rottie sheds more than any of my friend's dogs. LOL ... What to use most effectively?


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Kathyy said:


> You can simply rub your hand over the lower legs to remove hair. I use a grooming stone [aka soft pumice] on lower legs.
> 
> Combine the warm bath BorderMom suggested with a rub down every few minutes to dry the dog and you will get out gobs of hair. If you keep it up until the dog is completely dry there won't be much hair shed for at least a week. Remember to rub the head, face and lower legs as well.
> 
> I would be lazy and not brush/comb/rub her dry after a bath and you sure could tell. She would be super fuzz dog until I did a proper job.


Shoot, I took Soro to a fundraiser dog wash today but I forgot to bring the zoom groom! Oh well, next time 

And thanks Graco! I'm also learning a lot from this thread. So if I understand correctly... A coat like a Schnauzer's will stop growing, then 'deteriorate' over time without proper care, while dogs like Labradors are continuously renewing their coat. 
Also, after Soro's bath today I very clearly saw the damage done by the furminator. I wish I took a picture, but basically lots of sticking-up guard hairs. I always thought it was natural, but I guess not! The knife should be arriving on Monday and I'll use that from now on... I'm sure I'll have many more questions but I will definitely reevaluate his coat in 3 months


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

hast said:


> Thank you! I just learned a lot. What would you use for a rottweiler? I bet you'll get a laugh when I tell you that one reason I wanted a rottie was that I didn't believe they'd shed much. LOL. My one rottie sheds more than any of my friend's dogs. LOL ... What to use most effectively?


No problem all. Haha. Yeah...rotties shed buckets as you now know. I would use a stripping knife to card them as with Canyx dog. The Grooma works well while bathing, and the rubber horse curry too, esp on legs, throat, head and cheeks. The Furminator works great on them too but the key is not to overuse it. The Furminator can be a great tool when used correctly...no more that 15 minutes a week as a general rule. Not too much pressure either, let the tool do the work. You can use the rubber curry daily and not damage coat tho. 
Canyx that damaged coat will shed out in time and he will be good as new.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

The stripping knife arrived today! I opened the envelope and I already had a question before using it 
Well first, the two sides are different and I was wondering which side should be facing down:

















And then I experimented with it carefully on Soro's fur and my hair. Graco, I know I'm wrong about this but to me it feels a lot like the furminator. At the wrong angle it definitely cut hair. But when I had it around 45degrees-parallel, it pulled out what I assumed to be undercoat (felt fluffy). Upon closer examination I think its pulling out the entire hair with the follicle, and not cutting it.

















This was with the knife in my right hand, the edge with the words on it was facing down like in the first picture. When I tried it the other way it wouldn't pick up fur. 
But anyways, I'm hacking away at a cardboard box right now. And I've already tried to dig some holes in the garden with it  
Forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat yourself, but if I understand correctly... If used properly this shouldn't damage coat and I can use it as often as I want?

EDIT: I used it on his sides and it is like MAGIC. I've never held such fluffy stuff in my life! Now I can tell that the furminator has been pulling out guard hairs because the hairball that resulted was definitely coarser than this. But I'm having a lot of trouble with the longer hair on his neck and along his back. Also, the hair on his neck swirls in different directions. I've left that part untouched for now because no matter how I tried I kept cutting his guard hairs!
Thanks a million!


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Canyx said:


> The stripping knife arrived today! I opened the envelope and I already had a question before using it
> Well first, the two sides are different and I was wondering which side should be facing down:
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, the pics you posted show undercoat and no guard hairs that I can tell. However, until the knife is good and dull, you may get some guardhairs either pulled or cut. Yes, you want the knife at as much of an angle as you can have it, do not use it perpendicular to the skin, and always pull the skin tight, from above where you are using it. Use it with the grooves facing the direction you are moving the knife. As you stand behind the dog, the grooves should be facing you. Use it in long strokes, except where he has the cowlicks and swirls in the coat..in those areas, use less pressure at first, and short strokes. You can experiment with the length of the strokes to see what works best in each of those areas, and after a few strokes, you should find it is easier to pull the knife thru. If you hit a spot that is difficult to pull the knife thru, lighten the pressure, and use short strokes. It is likely there is alot of coat in that spot, and it will take a few strokes to loosen it up, and make it easier. Yes, you can basically use this often...however, anytime you are raking/carding/pulling undercoat out, keep in mind that there can be irritation to the skin if done daily, especially if you use alot of pressure. You don't want to removed every last piece of undercoat, as it is there for a reason, however, you should be fine using the knife 3-4 times a week, with light pressure, no more than 15 minute sessions. 

Reading over your post again, thats not a left handed knife is is? Looks like it is? Those areas on his neck, where you said it is cutting hair, just keep dulling it, and don't force it thru the coat. If it hits a spot where it won't easily glide, then go to small short strokes, to loosen up the undercoat first..and always pull the skin taut, while keeping the knife as parallel as you can to the skin. Yes, it will do what the Furminator is supposed to do...remove undercoat with minimal damage, if any to to the topcoat. And keep dulling it up.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks Graco!
At first I thought this was a left handed one as well... It might be. There is one side where there are deeper grooves (with the company logo as well) and when I use it that side is down, facing the fur. Either way, I've been using it as a right handed brush. 
I'll see how this goes


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Canyx said:


> Thanks Graco!
> At first I thought this was a left handed one as well... It might be. There is one side where there are deeper grooves (with the company logo as well) and when I use it that side is down, facing the fur. Either way, I've been using it as a right handed brush.
> I'll see how this goes


That side technically should be facing up...so it is a leftie...lol but it works so thats what matters. Keep us posted on how you like it.


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## Sarayu14 (Apr 26, 2010)

I was just at a grooming seminar with Sue Zecco, and the furminator question was asked. She said that she has used the furminator for years and has not had any problem with it cutting the coat.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Graco22 said:


> That side technically should be facing up...so it is a leftie...lol but it works so thats what matters. Keep us posted on how you like it.


:l
I can't get any fur out with it the 'right way'; it just runs through like a comb. I hope I'm not forcing too much undercoat out by using it this way! But yes, I've somehow made it work for me 




Sarayu14 said:


> I was just at a grooming seminar with Sue Zecco, and the furminator question was asked. She said that she has used the furminator for years and has not had any problem with it cutting the coat.


That's interesting. I used to swear by it until I noticed I've been wrong for years. Mind, anyone looking at my dog (besides Graco) might not be able to tell there is anything wrong with him. Because this is what my dog looks like right now (just a little skinnier and a bit more white on the muzzle ):








Yet when I looked closer at him after giving him a bath, I noticed hairs were sticking up in odd ways though everything looked 'normal' after he dried. Then I looked closer at what the furminator was pulling out and Graco confirmed there were guard hairs in it. 

Honestly, I could continue using the furminator and it wouldn't really matter because Soro's skin is healthy, his fur is lustrous, and he's just a companion. I think besides people who show their dogs and such, the average dog owner can use the furminator if it's not doing any obvious damage. Also, I think many of the grooming gurus here have mentioned that the furminator is great when used properly and not excessively.
But personally I just want to see what would happen if I stopped cutting his topcoat.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Sarayu14 said:


> I was just at a grooming seminar with Sue Zecco, and the furminator question was asked. She said that she has used the furminator for years and has not had any problem with it cutting the coat.


I just love Sue, she is awesome, and I don't doubt that she has used it with success, as I use it in my salon with great success as well. However, pet owners are not trained groomers, and used incorrectly (wrong angles) or too often (most pet owner use it too often, I am using it on a dog every month or more) it does cut and damage coat, and you can clearly see that in the pics of Canyx's dog. Also, look at what she pulled out with the Furminator. Those pics clearly show guard hairs, and cut guard hairs. (Great pics and documentation by the way Canyx). It can be a great tool, when used correctly, on the type of coat it is designed for, in small doses. A stripping knife is "old school" but gentler on the topcoat, and just as easy as the Furminator is.


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## Sarayu14 (Apr 26, 2010)

I had the best time, they had some of the top groomers in North America Sue Zecco, Jay Scruggs, Shauna Bernardin, and Hayley Keyes was also there. I am not a professional groomer (I am looking into going to school) and I learned so much this weekend.


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Sarayu14 said:


> I had the best time, they had some of the top groomers in North America Sue Zecco, Jay Scruggs, Shauna Bernardin, and Hayley Keyes was also there. I am not a professional groomer (I am looking into going to school) and I learned so much this weekend.


Sue and Jay are fabulous. Hayley is very nice too, but I haven't met Shauna before I don't believe. I have never seen anyone scissor like Jay. His scissoring motion is what all groomers aspire to have...I've been trying for years..and darn it..just ain't happening! LOL


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Canyx said:


>


Graco, I'm giving you an update! As you can see, no more stick-outs on his back:










But this has been going on for a while. I admit, this neck area is where I cut the most coat. I don't know if the messiness is natural or a result of that. It seems he's always had different fur there, maybe a result of wearing nylon collars for most of his life too?
(Head is to the right)


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## Graco22 (Jul 16, 2007)

Wow! Quite a difference huh! The neck "rolls" can be because of the collar, or because of the rolls of skin there. If its the skin, not much you can do, its just how your dog is built, and I would guess that he has a steep shoulder layback.


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## Selah Cowgirl (Nov 14, 2009)

Fantastic, I would also suggest the pumice stone when shedding comes around, I love it for my giffy.


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