# "Reactivity" and stuff...



## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

*"Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

I didn't want to hijack the other thread since my situation is slightly different, but want to get some advice anyways. 

As time goes on, Porsche is getting more and more reactive to strange dogs on leash. 

This is most likely a caused by a mixture of factors, which I'll list in no particular order:

-coming out of her shell the longer we have her (it's been, what 3-4 months?)
-frustration at not having been able to play/interact with other dogs for the last month and a half (because split heat and now pyo)
-being charged at and nearly attacked in a tight spot by an aggressive dog

She's great with dogs off leash (well, at least she was... last time she was off leash was before her heat started, a month and a half ago). But on leash... 

Especially ever since we got attacked, she's lunging, growling, and barking at other dogs, even if they don't react to her. 

I've started very active LAT with her because it's getting worse, not better, but I don't have a clear picture of what her threshold distance is yet. We don't have any dog friends that I can work with, but on every walk we hang around in the park and follow around dogs who walk through there doing LAT. 

I don't know if she's scared, aggressive, or frustrated. 
She's always growled at other dogs on leash - but then when she plays with other dogs, she growls in play. 
Her hackles are never up. 
She isn't an "excitable" dog in the normal sense - when she's excited she gets super intense and fixated on the object of her excitement. I've learned that this doesn't mean that she will move in for the kill if given the option though. 

And that's how she reacts to other dogs, too - intense and fixated. It's the same reaction when she wants to play, but it's also the same reaction when she wants to catch/kill. 

LAT is going well, but I don't function well on long-term structured programs. 
I don't even know if I can call her "reactive", because when we're in a new place and she's slightly overwhelmed by the environment, she can pass by other dogs on leash without so much as looking at them. 

But in a familiar environment... all bets are off. 

If I allow her to meet other dogs on leash, before she starts growling, she's usually fine. Especially if they're large dogs. Small dogs beware though - she will start growling/lunge at them even after meeting/sniffing. 

Except for off-leash. Off-leash she's the small dog protector. 

I don't know. 
I'm confused. 
I don't want her to get worse. 
I want her to be able to walk by another dog without sounding like she's going to take a chunk out of it if given the opportunity.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

Can't get a break, can we...

Took her out with some rollover, which she thought was amazing. Rewarded heavily for being in heel position. Saw dogs, she was great. Got super duper close and she stayed under threshold and paid attention mostly to me. 

Got close to one small dog and they were literally 1 meter away from each other in full control, paying attention to me, receiving treats, etc. So we figured let's let them sniff... and then after the sniff Porsche growled and lunged, which of course resulted in the other dog yelling at her and me pulling her away and immediately asking for sit/down then back to LAT. Came back to me easy and did sit/down easy. Then both dogs did a bit of obedience at that 1m away from each other length and it went great. 

Then they left, and we went up to two Tollers playing fetch. Were able to get very close with great attention on me. One of the Tollers (off-leash) came up to her so I didn't put any tension on the leash and they sniffed and it was fine. A little unsure body language, Porsche being a bit overbearing/intense like she can be, but no growling or lunging or issues (tollers are "large" dogs to her). Other owner called her dog away, I called Porsche away, we parted ways without issues either. 

At that point I had run out of treats and we went home. 

We were almost home-free when I noticed (too late) that there was an off-leash yorkie in a driveway two houses down from mine, with only a small boy watching it/playing with it. No collar on the dog either. The dog rushed us, barking and growling, and didn't stop a safe distance away, but literally got as underfoot as it could. It was all I could do to keep Porsche in control and get her out of there as fast as I could - of course she was lunging and growling and possibly even trying to bite, I wasn't able to see cause the Yorkie moved so quick.

Yorkie's parents came running and were able to catch their dog and we were able to get away. 

Porsche had no problems walking away, didn't try to go back and continue the altercation, but come ON.

We just spent 30 minutes doing LAT with great results, only to get rushed by a tiny dog off-leash. 

I've never seen that dog at that house before. It was lying under a bush until we were fairly close, and neither me nor Porsche saw it until it was already rushing us.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

My advices are;
1) Don't let her greet other dogs on leash. At least for the time being, but it's a good general rule. That can be a bad idea for most dogs in general, so it isn't surprising that she sometimes (usually?) reacts badly. They can feel defensive because they know they're on leash and don't have that escape route so things are more tense. 
2) Don't practice LAT if you can't prevent the other dog from approaching her. Have some kind of barrier to prevent them getting all up in her space.
3) Sometimes stuff happens. We've been rushed by dogs before, in those situations you just do what you have to do to get things under control and everyone safe. I sympathize that it really sucks, but it happens.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*



ireth0 said:


> My advices are;
> 1) Don't let her greet other dogs on leash. At least for the time being, but it's a good general rule. That can be a bad idea for most dogs in general, so it isn't surprising that she sometimes (usually?) reacts badly. They can feel defensive because they know they're on leash and don't have that escape route so things are more tense.
> 2) Don't practice LAT if you can't prevent the other dog from approaching her. Have some kind of barrier to prevent them getting all up in her space.
> 3) Sometimes stuff happens. We've been rushed by dogs before, in those situations you just do what you have to do to get things under control and everyone safe. I sympathize that it really sucks, but it happens.


Yeah - All of this. 

I NEVER allow on-leash greetings. All that does is set up a 'gray area' for the dog (will I get to meet/greet? or won't I?) If leash time =/= playtime, it makes the lesson so much clearer for them. 

And, if something beyond your control happens, then the best thing to do is simply 'get out of Dodge'. Turn around, walk away - get your dog's attention via whatever methods necessary, and then --- let it GO. If you dwell, or stress out, over a random (albeit unfortunate) occurrence, it can make it a much bigger deal for the dog than it might otherwise have been. Sh** happens, we sigh, and we move on.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

I think I'm only doing it because I'm living in the past. 

She always used to be great with any dog once she sniffed them. The lunging-after-sniffing is new. 
She used to only pull towards strange dogs excitedly. Now she growls, barks, and lunges at anyone, and I can't tell if she actually would take a chunk out of them. 

But yeah. I know I'm not supposed to let her approach other dogs on leash, and not supposed to allow other dogs to approach her. 

I guess I just kind of... feel like a failure with all of this. I'm trying really hard to be a good dog owner and here is this issue coming up and getting worse and I don't know if I caused it. 

And I also don't know if I'm capable of fixing it, with my anxiety towards training, and LAT requires constant, always-on, long-term training. 

And I just... don't want it to escalate to full on dog aggression (or who knows, maybe we're already there? I was legitimately scared for that Yorkie today). 

I also don't want to deprive her of dog interaction forever, that's what I'm most scared of in the end. That it'll get so bad that she'll never be able to play with other dogs even off-leash cause I'd be too scared of the what-ifs...


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

Do you have access to a trainer who can accompany you on a walk (or two, or three...) to see & evaluate exactly what is going on? It's very important to remember that leashes can promote a type of barrier frustration in & of themselves. Not to mention that the leash needs to be consider like a nerve fiber running between you & the dog - what you're experiencing/feeling, so will she be. (In other words, your anxiety can - and will - feed hers) 

Perhaps a professional opinion & some 'right there, in the moment' guidance will help set your mind at ease? That will only help her relax as well. 

And for what it's worth - even my most reactive dog is fairly OK off leash with certain dogs. If I decide that a 'meet & greet' wouldn't be a horrible thing, I take her off leash & release her to interact freely, and without the leash-induced stress. (I know this isn't always practical or possible, but it definitely means that on-leash reactivity doesn't mean the end to all dog on dog interaction!)


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

Also, you are rushing too fast. You're not going to fix reactivity in a day. If you have a good walk where she doesn't react to any dogs at a distance, that doesn't mean it's time to approach closely. It means you laid some groundwork to build on.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

Molly is reactive. I don't care.

I know that sounds alien to you and is going to sound weird to a lot of people here in general, but I'm spelling it out, anyway.

She started showing reactivity when she was five months old. It was pretty fully entrenched when we started classes at 6 months. LAT/BAT stressed me out and made her obsessive about searching for other dogs and made them a bigger deal than they already were (this is her, do not take this as training advice) so I stopped doing it. Walks were walks, trips out were trips out, we mostly avoided other dogs and when she reacted, OH WELL. I'd give her a cookie or something once it was over and she had her headback, but that was about it. 

I worked on reactivity once a week in class, from her being 6 months old until now at 13 months. We had some time off. We also worked at, you know, the agility stuff as we could. As we could at first wasn't at all. We started out behind a barrier, and us just rewarding voluntary attention. These days she's running sequences off leash, and doing all the course work and only very occasionally losing it in class, because some other dog lost it first. 

Out and about and in general life, if she sees a dog in a location she does not expect one and she is on leash, she still sounds like cujo. If she is overwhelmed and overstimulated by the environment while on leash, the appearance of a dog in the distance will set her off. I. Don't. Care. I move away if I can, wait if I can't. When I have her back I ask her for behavior and we carry on with life. She isn't dog aggressive; off leash she's fine. Since the issue is confined to being on leash, and thereby being within my immediate physical control, there is no real danger to her or anyone else (unless someone is stupid with their dog, but I can't control that, anyway). Since I know, thanks to experience and training, that it isn't fear or real discomfort, but instead general excitability and frustration, I don't feel the need to make her more comfortable. 

To whit: I don't care. She'll work through it on her own with some minor help and encouragement from me over the years, or she won't. I am not, however, dedicating a chunk of my brain and most of my training time to 'fixing it'. She's loud and acts like a loon and sometimes startles the crap out of people and requires some occasional management. All right. No big deal.

I am NOT advising you do this with Porche. AYou need to figure out the source of her reactivity, and you might want to see about getting some help figuring out if it's barrier frustration or aggression or just 'I haven't had nearly enough exercise in the last 6 weeks (or longer once spay recovery)' and take it from there. But don't... let it eat your brain and don't let it take up all of your brain and training space with her. I just. Reactivity just isn't a huge deal most of the time - one that takes a long time to resolve, but not a huge deal to live with. Maybe she needs some confidence boosting, maybe she needs some counter conditioning, maybe she just needs a whole lot of exercise. Maybe she needs not to meet other dogs off leash. Figure it out and take it from there, but odds that she actually wants to eat all the dogs after being okay with them but already being loud on leash are... slim.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*



CptJack said:


> Molly is reactive. I don't care.
> 
> I know that sounds alien to you and is going to sound weird to a lot of people here in general, but I'm spelling it out, anyway.


Nah, my Queenie is similar about strange dog encounters and I feel pretty much the same way. She is a loon about new dogs that come too close when she's on leash. She makes a bunch of noise and her hair stands all up and she looks like a crazy dog. She gets over it after being around the new dog for a while, or after the new dog goes away. I used to think it was a precursor to actual fighting, but in 14 years it hasn't actually resulted in a fight, so I think that worry has thoroughly been put to bed. She's just a blowhard. I worked on it for a while, didn't really get anywhere, don't really care. It's not an actual problem in practical terms (i.e. it looks and sounds like a tasmanian devil attack, but nothing actually happens) and I don't really care if people think she's horrible, so meh.


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## hookilau (Jun 10, 2015)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

I agree with ireth0

I would also add that maybe you should take a break before moving forward.
Counter-conditioning takes time & short sessions ending on a positive note will lay the groundwork you are looking for.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

Kris, my Dobe, is the first dog I have owned that was reactive to other dogs when she was on leash. I have worked on it for well over a year at our Obedience classes and although she is not 100%, she is certainly better. Off leash, she never bothers other dogs or goes up to them. I can run her through Agility (or Obedience) off leash and she will not even look at another dog. I very seldom walk her on leash as I have lots of places where she can be walked off leash and have never had a problem. The main reason I really worked on her is that being a Doberman, she looked like Cujo, barking and leaping at other dogs which does not give a good impression even though I know (have done it when it was safe) if I just unsnap the leash, the other dog ceases to exist. As I intend to compete in Agility with her eventually, I had to get her mainly over it or she could be barred from the trials.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*



parus said:


> It's not an actual problem in practical terms (i.e. it looks and sounds like a tasmanian devil attack, but nothing actually happens) and I don't really care if people think she's horrible, so meh.


Yep. The biggest issue we will have is either taking longer to compete because she needs to learn what an agility trial is and to expect dogs there (most likely) or she won't be able to if she never gets the message. I don't expect that, but if it's the worst case scenario? Eeeeeh.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

I'm kinda in Cpt Jack's boat. Jazzy is insanely leash reactive. It's frustrating as hell, but I don't really put much time into "fixing" it. She has a strong harness and we do some LAT, but we pretty well walk off leash 99% of the time. It's pretty much a matter of getting her to an off leash area as fast as possible while avoiding dogs.

It's weird though because she isn't reactive on leash in the trails at all. I leash her as soon as we see another dog we don't know and she doesn't react. Maybe she knows that she's allowed to meet dogs on the trails so doesn't freak out? Her source of frustration on leash is wanting to greet other dogs.

I would follow Sass's advice. Take it slow and stop dog interactions for now. It sounds like you've made some progress and I have faith that you will get there if you don't try to rush the process.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*



> It's weird though because she isn't reactive on leash in the trails at all. I leash her as soon as we see another dog we don't know and she doesn't react. Maybe she knows that she's allowed to meet dogs on the trails so doesn't freak out? Her source of frustration on leash is wanting to greet other dogs.


This is so Molly. In class, in PetStores, around the house, she both knows that there are going to be other dogs, she knows that there is going to be any interaction, and she knows the routine as far as what she's expected to do. So they just... don't exist for her, apparently. Of course I'm assuming about the reason but the fact remains that if she knows there will be other dogs she just doesn't seem to care. 

That said, I admit freely a lot of my 'whatever' is that it's an on leash issue and I don't NEED to leash walk Molly for exercise or potty trips or what have you. If I did, I'd likely feel different.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*



sassafras said:


> Also, you are rushing too fast. You're not going to fix reactivity in a day. If you have a good walk where she doesn't react to any dogs at a distance, that doesn't mean it's time to approach closely. It means you laid some groundwork to build on.


This ^^^^ 

Everything you do seems to be a rush to raise the bar - you don't have to constantly challenge her. It's okay if things get easy for her. You don't have to raise the bar every 10 minutes or even everyday. When you're doing LAT - don't worry about introductions, just do LAT while you walk away from or passed the dog - if she's not handling well enough to walk passed the dog, then move off the walkway to the side, have her in a 'sit' hold the leash close to her loosely, reward while the other dog passes and then go about your walk. Your dog doesn't _need_ dog friends. All you need is to have a walk that won't be stressful - and right now it just sounds like you're stressing yourself out about it.


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## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*



CptJack said:


> This is so Molly. In class, in PetStores, around the house, she both knows that there are going to be other dogs, she knows that there is going to be any interaction, and she knows the routine as far as what she's expected to do. So they just... don't exist for her, apparently. Of course I'm assuming about the reason but the fact remains that if she knows there will be other dogs she just doesn't seem to care.
> 
> That said, I admit freely a lot of my 'whatever' is that it's an on leash issue and I don't NEED to leash walk Molly for exercise or potty trips or what have you. If I did, I'd likely feel different.


Yep, if I had to leash walk for exercise, I would be a lot more stressed, but we are blessed with trails pretty well in our backyard where she run and swims.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

Yeah, unfortunately we're not in a position where have off-leash space to walk, and I wouldn't even trust her to remain around me off-leash yet. And My backyard isn't usable at this point (not fenced and little access), so even our potty breaks are on-leash.

She's also not exactly small, so allowing her to continue to react isn't a feasible option.

She's recovering from her spay this week so she's not interested in walking for miles, so I've kind of let this go for the moment. When she's back to normal, I'll continue with LAT but without introductions, and hopefully she'll be okay at dog parks. 

She's perfectly fine in class btw. When she's focused on me continuously she's fine. Then again, last time we were in class was over 6 weeks ago, before this reactivity thing escalated. So I dunno how she'll be in class now. We won't be going back for another two weeks.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*



Alla said:


> Got close to one small dog and they were literally 1 meter away from each other in full control, paying attention to me, receiving treats, etc. So we figured let's let them sniff... and then after the sniff Porsche growled and lunged, which of course resulted in the other dog yelling at her and me pulling her away and immediately asking for sit/down then back to LAT.


As others have said, you are moving to fast. 



Alla said:


> I think I'm only doing it because I'm living in the past.
> She always used to be great with any dog once she sniffed them. The lunging-after-sniffing is new....
> 
> I also don't want to deprive her of dog interaction forever, that's what I'm most scared of in the end. That it'll get so bad that she'll never be able to play with other dogs even off-leash cause I'd be too scared of the what-ifs...


The thing is, ask yourself what she enjoys... She seems to be great at paying attention to you, working for food, etc. She does NOT seem to enjoy other dogs approaching and sniffing her. As you put it, it might be you living in the past, and maybe you wanting her to be social more than she actually needs it. Socialization does not necessarily make a social dog. Socialization is so dogs get accustomed to other dogs and their mannerisms; whether or not they accept the company of other dogs past a certain point is largely due to personality (assuming socialization went well). 
In my opinion, if a reactive dog progresses well enough in that they are able to pass dogs and be around dogs in a calm and controlled manner, there is absolutely no need to have them meet. 'Getting my dog to not react at other dogs' is TOTALLY DIFFERENT than 'getting my dog to not react when greeting other dogs'. The first is trainable and the second is less so. So logically, you control the reaction by preventing a reaction. And in my own experience I've found that the more you train a reactive dog to ignore other dogs, the better the chance of impromptu meetings (such as a dog rushing you) going well. The more you force interaction, you get some good and some bad experiences, the dog is still sometimes 'expecting' to need to react.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

*Re: "Reactivity" and I'm so confused... Help please?*

Right or wrong, if my dogs are on leash, they know that they aren't going to get to greet and interact with other dogs. Not ever. And if an off-leash dog comes at us, my dogs know that I am going to drive it away. If a leashed dog is approaching us, I move my dogs to the opposite side of my body as the approaching dog. I stand between them. If my dogs have a leash on, no dog is going too touch them. 

While this may not cure reactivity, it goes a long ways towards preventing it and softening it. 

It is my opinion that if a dog has to always wonder if there will be a greeting or contact, then dogs become much more relevant to them. If there are greetings, then it makes sense that dogs take stock of any approaching dog. I don't do on-leash interactions ever. When I do off-lead interactions, it's only with dogs that my dogs have trained around for weeks or months and it's at the end of a long training session and it's off-leash in a safe place. I don't do a ton of play-dates, but that's how I approach them when I do. No surprises.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

I dunno. If I had another dog for Porsche to play with, I wouldn't really mind if she didn't interact with other dogs, cause she'd have company and playmates. 

But I don't have another dog. And she loves playing with other dogs. At the dog park, she's constantly playing with other dogs. She couldn't care less about the people, she couldn't care less about the environment, she just wants to play with other dogs.

And I would hate to take that away from her.

Now this doesn't translate into "meet and greet on leash". 

But you guys all saying "my dogs don't ever play with strange dogs unless we've trained around them for months" doesn't work for us.

I just want to be able to calmly walk past other dogs on leash, and also play off leash when appropriate.

I mean I'd love for every meeting in the park next to our house to me a mini play date, cause I always see the same dogs there, and half of them are off leash (it's not an off leash park). But if that's not possible, I'll settle for calmly walking by them too.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Oh and just wanted to add that I agree i was going too fast on that. I'm pretty sure I also made some people uncomfortable by following them around lol.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Depends on the dog. Both my dogs are expected to ignore other dogs when they're working on-leash. Cas get to play with dogs off-leash regularly because he loves it. Queenie would just find it stressful, so she does not. 

Neither one gets to mess with other dogs while on-leash, though. Leash time is not dog time.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

This is slightly OT unsolicited advice, so take from it what you will. And I understand that with anxiety and other problems it is not always so easy to control your thoughts and feelings, so there's that. 

But I think you will both be happier if you can let go of some of your "wants" and preconceived ideals about what having a dog is like. You have the dog in front of you. Sometimes dogs' behavior changes with age, experiences, training. Some of it you can affect, some of it is pre-programmed. So there will always be a little bit of an element of a crap shoot and we don't always get what we want. Often, in my experience, we get what is good for us instead. 

We plan, dogs laugh. Then we adapt our plans. It's good to have goals but try not to get SO fixated on the goal that you feel like if you just tick off enough boxes on the training plan that you WILL reach the goal because sometimes you won't even if you do everything "right" because dogs are living beings instead of robots that come with an instruction manual.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

This popped up on my FB this morning. Seems relevant.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I agree with some of the others. Kris is never allowed to meet dogs while she is on leash. That is why she is finally not reactive to them as all she wanted before was to play with them but looked like she wanted to "eat" them. She has still gone to doggy daycare for the first time last year when I had to be in the hospital and was fine playing with all the dogs there. I boarded her there so she went home with one of the owners at night. It did not change her attitude to other dogs when she is on leash as she has learned, on leash is not play time and off leash when we are either doing Obedience or Agility is still not doggy play time either.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Hey guys, question - say I'm doing LAT, and I accidentally get her over threshold and she reacts. Then I move her away, until she's under threshold again - can I start LAT again since she's under threshold, or should I say screw it and just hold off on doing LAT until the next opportunity with the next dog?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

For me, as soon as the dog stops reacting and gives me anything. I shove food in their face. Whether that's look at THAT, look at ME, sit, or just plain calms down, they get food crammed in their throat - but I carry on with the walk as normal, too, rather than stopping for a 'session' with reactivity.


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## CrimsonAccent (Feb 17, 2012)

sassafras said:


> This is slightly OT unsolicited advice, so take from it what you will. And I understand that with anxiety and other problems it is not always so easy to control your thoughts and feelings, so there's that.
> 
> *But I think you will both be happier if you can let go of some of your "wants" and preconceived ideals about what having a dog is like. *You have the dog in front of you. Sometimes dogs' behavior changes with age, experiences, training. Some of it you can affect, some of it is pre-programmed. So there will always be a little bit of an element of a crap shoot and we don't always get what we want. Often, in my experience, we get what is good for us instead.
> 
> We plan, dogs laugh. Then we adapt our plans. It's good to have goals but try not to get SO fixated on the goal that you feel like if you just tick off enough boxes on the training plan that you WILL reach the goal because sometimes you won't even if you do everything "right" because dogs are living beings instead of robots that come with an instruction manual.


So much this.

As said in your other thread: Please just chill.

I'm not saying to not take this "seriously" as GSDs are bigger/powerful dogs and if things did escalate it could be bad. But at the same time, being wound up and rushing won't help anything for anyone.

Remember to have fun


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I totally feel for you. I have a similar issue with expecting my dog to act like a dog she's not, but instead be some picture perfect dog that doesn't even exist. I'm still grappling with my own feelings about how she's reacted to children in the past, but I can tell you I also felt the same way about her reaction to strange dogs when I first got her. And I knew she was dog reactive! Now she knows we aren't going to interact with strange dogs on leash and she's 10000% better. We just walk past, no reaction. When she's been barked at or we've accidentally met a dog when turning the corner, she's been great. Because she knows we're just going to quickly walk away. She plays with her one dog friend just fine, but she takes great comfort in knowing that she doesn't need to worry about strange dogs on her walks.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

CptJack said:


> For me, as soon as the dog stops reacting and gives me anything. I shove food in their face. Whether that's look at THAT, look at ME, sit, or just plain calms down, they get food crammed in their throat - but I carry on with the walk as normal, too, rather than stopping for a 'session' with reactivity.


This completely.

I work with what the dog is able to offer. If he can look at the other dog and back me, then great. If I can tell that he can't get his focus off the other dog, I shove food in his face to keep him from reacting. Then we move on with our walk. I don't do sessions and ask him to look at other dogs, I just use LAT to my advantage if we come upon other dogs (or we are in a class) as a way to keep his focus on me. I prefer it to asking him to only look at me because it allows him to be curious or worried and look at the other dog, but then patterns refocusing on me.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Small update to this... I haven't been working on it much, more just managing it. Mostly this involves dragging her across the street, or into a ditch, or into a forest, or up a steep hill, to get away from whatever dog we happen to come across. This is on the off-chance that she actually wants to go for a walk, which has become increasingly rare. Most of the time she goes out to the front yard to pee then straight back to the house door and I can't convince her to actually walk for a bit. Or if I try to make her, she lays down and licks the spay incision, and will allow me to drag her by the collar without stopping the licking. So I concede and go back home. 

She's still recovering from being spayed, this is her 3rd week stuck in a cone. As soon as we take it off she starts licking the incision, and has already infected it once (it's fine now thanks to another bout of antibiotics), so cone it is. So we haven't been able to go to a dog park or interact with any dogs at all. Reactivity is definitely still getting worse. I'm chalking this up to little exercise and not having gotten any meaningful dog interaction in over two months. 

Oh, and she is now reactive to cats we see on walks. Growls, barks, lunges, hackles, the usual.

Oh yeah, and before she never raised her hackles when reacting to dogs, but has recently started doing that.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

It's likely that you are seeing a spike in her unwanted behavior because she hasn't been able to exercise much lately. Might drop off when she gets moving again.

I can't imagine a dog in a cone for 3 weeks. That has to have her stressed out of her minds. Her incision hasn't healed in 3 weeks? What does your vet say about that?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Jack had a reaction to his 'dissolvable' stitches after his neuter that led to a BAD infection - basically an abscess around them. Getting that cleaned up, stitches picked out and replaced with staples and then healing took a month, easily. :/ So I'm not too surprised by that. 

I do agree the behavior's likely response to stress from the cone and lack of exercise. And for what it's worth the hackles up thing just means arousal - not necessarily more aggression just more excitement. Like people with goosebumps.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> It's likely that you are seeing a spike in her unwanted behavior because she hasn't been able to exercise much lately. Might drop off when she gets moving again.
> 
> I can't imagine a dog in a cone for 3 weeks. That has to have her stressed out of her minds. Her incision hasn't healed in 3 weeks? What does your vet say about that?


She doesn't seem to mind putting the cone on or manouvering in it. I don't see any outward negativity towards it - and we always take it off for walks. She is showing no desire to spend more time outside where the cone is never on her. 

Her incision is healed, but the operation was difficult and they had to make an extra long cut. Also the way her body is, the part of the incision she can reach to lick is basically tucked away between the folds of her skin (her teats hang down), and as a result the area doesn't have a chance to dry well, so the moisture builds up and causes irritation and has been infected. Vet says keep her in the cone until the end of this week (this is week 3) and then see how much she is bothering the incision.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Poor thing. I hope she can get out of the thing soon.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> Poor thing. I hope she can get out of the thing soon.


Believe me, me too!


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

A few more things I noticed as I've been making her walk more for the past few days. 

I think the root of the problem may be in that she isn't sure whether she'd get to meet the dogs on leash or not. I think if I solidify that, she'll be fine. I say this because we ran into a group of 4 dogs of various sizes across the street today, and I was trying to get close to them to do LAT, but the closest I could get was the opposite sidewalk - and she completely ignored them all. Despite the actual distance being very much within her reactivity zone, she didn't react because they were specifically across the street. 

Same thing happens when we come across dogs that are in their houses - she can see them, she can hear them bark, they are way within her reactivity zone, but she doesn't react specifically because they're in the house. 

Same thing with dogs passing in cars.

I think she's been taught that she will never get a chance to meet the dogs that are across the street or in houses, so she doesn't really worry about them. It's only the dogs that she knows she could reach.

I guess it's only time and consistency of not meeting these dogs that will teach her not to worry about them either?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Alla said:


> I think she's been taught that she will never get a chance to meet the dogs that are across the street or in houses, so she doesn't really worry about them. It's only the dogs that she knows she could reach.


I think this is important for reactive dogs, and the reason that I do not allow Hazel to greet dogs on leash ever if I can help it. She's not reactive at all, but I think too much on leash greeting can create or worsen the excited reactive dogs. They want to greet so bad, the collar and leash holds them back, and it turns into barrier frustration. 

I allowed Watson to greet a lot of dogs on leash when he was younger, and I think it's contributed to his reactivity. He's naturally a very doggy dog, and interested in every other dog (probably genetics + being an intact male) and by making him think that he could sometimes meet dogs on leash it's made him frustrated and a bit reactive. If I had never let him greet dogs on leash he probably would've learned to ignore them by now. It's like birds - he used to freak out when he saw robins and other little birds. At some point in his life he realized that he will never catch one of them, and if he's on leash he can't chase them either, and now he almost completely ignores them. I'm sure if one landed in front of his face he would flip out, but there is a structure where he realizes that they are not an option and he shouldn't waste his energy on them any more.

ETA: I also read something interesting about reactivity the other day, though now I can't remember where. The author said to look at distance not in feet, but in dog lengths. For example, say most dogs start to freak out at 5 dog lengths. 5 dog lengths is very different for a GSD vs a chihuahua. The GSD might start reacting at 15ft (3ft of dog length x 5 lengths) but the chi might not react until 5ft (1ft of dog length x 5 lengths). So for a big dog like Porsche, she might need dogs to be a more of a distance for her to feel comfortable.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

So I chanced going to the dog park tonight, and it couldn't have gone better. 

She recognized where we were, but even on the walk from the car to the park was on her best behaviour and didn't pull once. Then when we got inside (off leash already), the other dogs came up to her (all large and respectful), and she was a bit unsure for the first minute or so, but in a submissive/appeasing way. Sniffed with everyone, came to me for reassurance a few times (surprisingly), then just kind of slowly warmed up to the dogs. She wasn't standoffish or anything, just more like, interested in them but not ready to play (and they were asking her to play). I went at a late time when I knew there wouldn't be many there, and there were only 5. 

Eventually she did warm up enough to play and played really well with all the dogs there, which is also surprising because she plays rough and its usually difficult to find other dogs who play rough, but it was a good group for that tonight. Even when I clipped on her leash to leave, the reactivity didn't return and she calmly followed me out of the park, not pulling or overexcited or anything. 

Oh, and before that we went to the park next to my house with my 30ft lead and did some recalls for barbequed chicken.  Given that we haven't practiced recalls in at least a month (probably more), she did really well, and was very happy to be able to actually run on a leash instead of just walk all the time. 

I finally feel a little bit like a normal dog owner, with running, and training, and dog parks. 

It's great to know that she's still good off leash.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

You know how when you have a reactive dog and want to avoid dealing with it, you tend to do your walks at a different time than the majority of the neighbourhood?

Yesterday I found out that 12:30am is when all the reactive dogs get their evening walk. We ran into 3, not including us. 

And one of them was a tiny dog off leash on a corner lot. Thankfully kept his distance and just barked his head off (and so did Porsche).

But it's like, come on... Didn't know there was a neighbourhood set time for reactive dog walking lol.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

Contacted a private trainer today about possibly getting some help with this. Cause she is going to knock me down one of these days and I'm afraid the results won't be pretty. I've tripped over her so many times while trying to get away and prevent a reacting episode that it's not even funny. 

I've started trying to use a backpack for her to lessen the reactivity. I've only had her carry about 3lbs (she is 70lb), and she acted like there was nothing on her at all. As a side note, the people who raised her did a phenomenal job conditioning her to random things. She didn't even act curious when I stuck the backpack on her.  Going to try having her carry 8lb next. That's about 10% of her weight, so maybe she'll at least notice it?

I also found she's a lot less reactive in new locations, which is great. Dogs moving toward her are definitely much worse than dogs moving parallel or away from her. 
I would say her reactivity is still getting worse, not staying the same. She'll start pulling from further and further away each time. 
It is getting easier to move past it though. Generally as long as I can move her -away- from the other dog (i.e. exact opposite direction) she will do zoomies forward and around and maybe look over her shoulder at the dog behind, but she generally won't try to drag me back towards the dog. 

I've been able to prevent 95% of incidents so far though, either with LAT or just keeping distance. 

Am I correct in classifying a "reaction" as lunging, barking, and growling, and simple pulling isn't a reaction?


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Alla said:


> Contacted a private trainer today about possibly getting some help with this. Cause she is going to knock me down one of these days and I'm afraid the results won't be pretty. I've tripped over her so many times while trying to get away and prevent a reacting episode that it's not even funny.
> 
> I've started trying to use a backpack for her to lessen the reactivity. I've only had her carry about 3lbs (she is 70lb), and she acted like there was nothing on her at all. As a side note, the people who raised her did a phenomenal job conditioning her to random things. She didn't even act curious when I stuck the backpack on her.  Going to try having her carry 8lb next. That's about 10% of her weight, so maybe she'll at least notice it?
> 
> ...


That's how I would classify it, yes - Toby pulls *sometimes* towards dogs he feels particularly interested in meeting, but it's out of excitement and not because he is dog reactive. 
It sounds as though you're doing everything right and I have no further advice for you other than to hang on to your patience because it might take a while to get her back down to the level you are striving for.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

It kind of depends. It I were talking about whether a dog was a reactive dog then I would say a dog was not reactive if it was just pulling, but was reactive if it was barking and lunging. On the other hand, if I knew a dog was reactive and I was asked to pinpoint when the reaction started then sure pulling could be reactivity. If a reactive dog starts pulling towards another dog that is the beginning of the reaction.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> It kind of depends. It I were talking about whether a dog was a reactive dog then I would say a dog was not reactive if it was just pulling, but was reactive if it was barking and lunging. On the other hand, if I knew a dog was reactive and I was asked to pinpoint when the reaction started then sure pulling could be reactivity. If a reactive dog starts pulling towards another dog that is the beginning of the reaction.


I can still get her attention at this pulling stage though. She will redirect to me and do LAT, which is why I hesitate to call that the start of the reaction. But it certainly -is- a reaction lol, and moving with her in that state gets difficult lol.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

That's normal. You want to get their attention after they have reacted but before they are over threshold. You need to catch the first sign of the dog reacting, like staring or pulling. Once they are over threshold it's about management and not training.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

elrohwen said:


> That's normal. You want to get their attention after they have reacted but before they are over threshold. You need to catch the first sign of the dog reacting, like staring or pulling. Once they are over threshold it's about management and not training.


Right.  Okay so I am doing it right. Yay! 

Took her out again with the 3lb weighted backpack, adjusted properly. She noticed it this time, and spent a lot less time trotting than usual. Made no difference in her reactivity for now.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Alla said:


> But it certainly -is- a reaction lol, and moving with her in that state gets difficult lol.


 I would consider anything that deviates from the desired (LLW) behavior, a reaction. So yeah, in my opinion anyway, suddenly or intermittently pulling on leash would fit into that description.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Just a note, if you're planning on having her carry weight in a pack regularly you should look into what amount is safe to carry. IIRC 10% of body weight is supposed to be max unless they're specifically conditioned to carry more.


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## Alla (Mar 25, 2015)

ireth0 said:


> Just a note, if you're planning on having her carry weight in a pack regularly you should look into what amount is safe to carry. IIRC 10% of body weight is supposed to be max unless they're specifically conditioned to carry more.


Good point. I'll look into it. 

In other news I pulled a muscle in my left arm this morning trying to get her past two yapping mini schnauzers. Now I can't walk her with my left arm at all. 

Also supposed to have a call with the private trainer at some point today/tomorrow. Can't come soon enough. Honestly I'm considering putting the prong back on just because my arm is dying. Like the only way it doesn't hurt is if I have it in a sling, and any pulling pressure on it is really really painful....


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Yikes! Feel better!


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