# conflicting advice



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

In the few months I’ve been reading this forum, other dog sites, and books, I’ve learned so much. As a result, I have more questions  So, I have two questions about seemingly conflicting bits of training advice. 

*Woodhouse training collars*: The first training book I read was _Good Owners, Great Dogs_ by Brian Kilcommons , which is listed in the “recommended reading” sticky. Kilcommons recommends a Woodhouse collar which looks to me like a chain / choke / slip collar but is supposedly different. From what I recall, his way of using the collar was mostly to jingle the chain to get the dog’s attention. Still, I’ve read many negative comments about chain collars and wonder if the Woodhouse collar is significantly different or something to be avoided completely.

*Calming a dog by holding / hugging*: The second book I read was Paul Owens’ _The Dog Whisperer_, also listed in the “recommended reading” sticky. Owens describes a method of holding a dog close to one’s body to calm him. Basically, the owner and dog sit perpendicular to each other; the owner holds the dog with one arm around the chest and the other around the head and neck. He does recommend this technique be used only on dogs comfortable being held and never on dogs that show any type of fear or aggression. However, I’ve read elsewhere, dogs don’t like to be held in this manner. Is this something that should be avoided unless a dog really seems to enjoy it?

I certainly understand that no one trainer is infallible and my plan is to only adopt training methods that I’m 100% comfortable with (I like Owens’ advice to treat your dog as you would your child or grandparent). For the record, I’m not comfortable with the Woodhouse collar or the holding / hugging; I’m mostly just curious.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Looks like a choke chain to me too. Not sure how easy they are to find. Personally I use a plain buckle collar, then go to a martingale (cloth/nylon with a chain section so it can tighten up but not completely), then to a prong. Depends on the dog and what we're doing and so on, some are fine in a regular collar, some NEED a prong for safety reasons (the older lady with poor balance who is trying to control a 100 pound puppy/young dog who is dragging her and likely going to hurt her in the process). I woudln't use any collar that could totally tighten up on a dog. That being said I do like kennel leads for dogs that have little in the form of manners as it gives better control...

You would have to really, really know your dog to know if hugging them is going to work. If you really, really know your dog though, do you need to do that? To me doesn't sound like something I'd ever suggest to someone. The only time I've used something like that is with a grooming dog that has an emergency situation (like a cut that needs to be attended to) where they're not going to stand still and we just physically hold the dog still so whatever needs doing can be done. But that's not so much a training thing as a 'we need to see what's going on and deal with it' situation. 

You are right to question methods and trainers, not all things are going to work with all dogs - if you find something doesn't work well for your dog just move on and try something different to see how that works.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Jingling the choke chain is rubbish. You either use it for what is was designed or find another method or tool. If you are going to use a corrective collar on a dog, a prong collar is more effective and easier on the dog.

Holding a dog to calm him is a useful technique, but it needs to be done with an eye towards self preservation. If you've read your dog or the situation incorrectly, you could have a tiger by the tail.


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## winniec777 (Apr 20, 2008)

No comment on the collar since I don't have experience with using different kinds. RE the hug, I hug my dog like that so that she'll be more accepting of it at the vet - it sounds very similar to a restraining hold the techs use for giving shots, etc. I do it at home with treats for training purposes. But it is not done for calming - far from it since I'm guessing that feels like a pretty aggressive move to a dog based on what I've learned. If she needs comforting, a calm voice, distraction with obedience commands, leading her to a safer place, letting her lean on me - these are all preferable, IMO.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

cookieface said:


> *Calming a dog by holding / hugging*: The second book I read was Paul Owens’ _The Dog Whisperer_, also listed in the “recommended reading” sticky. Owens describes a method of holding a dog close to one’s body to calm him. Basically, the owner and dog sit perpendicular to each other; the owner holds the dog with one arm around the chest and the other around the head and neck. He does recommend this technique be used only on dogs comfortable being held and never on dogs that show any type of fear or aggression. However, I’ve read elsewhere, dogs don’t like to be held in this manner. Is this something that should be avoided unless a dog really seems to enjoy it?


This is going to be highly dependent on the dog and the situation. I have used the squeezing method to calm my dog. The type of situation where I'd use it is if she's overly excited to do something (leave the house, greet a friend, get her dinner, etc.). It does seem to help. I would never use it in a situation where she was scared of something, as it could be interpreted as pinning under those circumstances. Also, I'd never attempt to use it on a dog unfamiliar to me, or a dog that doesn't enjoy hugs. If the dog displays fear or signs of distress at any point, cease what you're doing.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I'm not a fan of any slip type collar. The potential for harm and cutting off air is too high. The Kilcommon's book is actually a bit dated now. I would much rather see a prong on a dog anyday than a choke. They are limited in the amount of tightening. But, I usually recommend a harness for management and a wider flat collar for actual training sessions of Loose leash walking, preventing pressure on the throat.

As for the calming hold...some dogs this works..some, it doesn't. Yes, it is an unnatural and threatening position for dogs, But for all puppies, conditioning to handling (ears, paws, tail, mouth, belly and anal/genital area) is an important part of creating a dog that doesn't stress too much when being examined or restrained for emergencies, medical care etc. So working on a gentle full body restraint is part of this...conditioning it so that "this touch" means good food goes a long way. Your breeder, show judge, groomer etc will thank you.

There is also the idea behind a relatively firm but calm enclosing of the dog with your arms...this is the idea behind the thundershirt or the ttouch anxiety wrap, certain pressure points are compressed (in the thundershirt it is the complete torso) and this releases calming neuro transmitters. Like swaddling a baby. These all need to be conditioned though to work best.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks so much for the comments and advice. Like I said, I'm not comfortable with the Woodhouse / slip collar or the calming hug thing (I'd certainly love to hug my dog, but not if it's threatening to him). I'll stick to standard collars and regular touch / handling socialization.



winniec777 said:


> No comment on the collar since I don't have experience with using different kinds. RE the hug, *I hug my dog like that so that she'll be more accepting of it at the vet* - it sounds very similar to a restraining hold the techs use for giving shots, etc. I do it at home with treats for training purposes. But it is not done for calming - far from it since I'm guessing that feels like a pretty aggressive move to a dog based on what I've learned. If she needs comforting, a calm voice, distraction with obedience commands, leading her to a safer place, letting her lean on me - these are all preferable, IMO.





Cracker said:


> I'm not a fan of any slip type collar. The potential for harm and cutting off air is too high. *The Kilcommon's book is actually a bit dated now.* I would much rather see a prong on a dog anyday than a choke. They are limited in the amount of tightening. But, I usually recommend a harness for management and a wider flat collar for actual training sessions of Loose leash walking, preventing pressure on the throat.
> 
> As for the calming hold...some dogs this works..some, it doesn't. Yes, it is an unnatural and threatening position for dogs, *But for all puppies, conditioning to handling (ears, paws, tail, mouth, belly and anal/genital area) is an important part of creating a dog that doesn't stress too much when being examined or restrained for emergencies, medical care etc. So working on a gentle full body restraint is part of this...conditioning it so that "this touch" means good food goes a long way. Your breeder, show judge, groomer etc will thank you.*
> 
> There is also the idea behind a relatively firm but calm enclosing of the dog with your arms...this is the idea behind the thundershirt or the ttouch anxiety wrap, certain pressure points are compressed (in the thundershirt it is the complete torso) and this releases calming neuro transmitters. Like swaddling a baby. These all need to be conditioned though to work best.


Yes, I definitely plan to make sure my dog is accustomed to being handled. Since we're getting a standard poodle and grooming will be a regular part of his life, this will be crucial.

I thought the Kilcommons' book might be a bit out-of-date, but the "grounding" ideas are very similar to NILIF so for that it was a worthwhile read.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

cookieface said:


> From what I recall, his way of using the collar was mostly to jingle the chain to get the dog’s attention. Still, I’ve read many negative comments about chain collars and wonder if the Woodhouse collar is significantly different or something to be avoided completely.
> 
> *Calming a dog by holding / hugging*: The second book I read was Paul Owens’ _The Dog Whisperer_, also listed in the “recommended reading” sticky. Owens describes a method of holding a dog close to one’s body to calm him. Basically, the owner and dog sit perpendicular to each other; the owner holds the dog with one arm around the chest and the other around the head and neck. He does recommend this technique be used only on dogs comfortable being held and never on dogs that show any type of fear or aggression. However, I’ve read elsewhere, dogs don’t like to be held in this manner. Is this something that should be avoided unless a dog really seems to enjoy it?
> 
> I certainly understand that no one trainer is infallible and my plan is to only adopt training methods that I’m 100% comfortable with (I like Owens’ advice to treat your dog as you would your child or grandparent). For the record, I’m not comfortable with the Woodhouse collar or the holding / hugging; I’m mostly just curious.


A choke chain is a choke chain is a choke chain. Lots of trainers talk about the noise as a warning for the dog. Problem is, human timing being basically pretty pitiful, by the time the dog is responding to the "jingle" the correction is already taking place. Dogs don't like being restrained. I like teaching them gently to accept a certain amount of restraint. Because if they ever have to go to a vet or a groomers, it's better if they understand what is going on. Personally, I prefer to click and treat for allowing me to handle body parts and gently restrain. The reason many dogs panic and behave badly is because they don't understand, and the tech/groomer/whoever isn't taking the time to explain.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Cracker said:


> The Kilcommon's book is actually a bit dated now. .


It's really a very old book. I've got it around here somewhere and should look at the publish date. Early 90s, maybe?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Pawzk9 said:


> A choke chain is a choke chain is a choke chain. Lots of trainers talk about the noise as a warning for the dog. Problem is, *human timing being basically pretty pitiful*, by the time the dog is responding to the "jingle" the correction is already taking place. Dogs don't like being restrained. I like teaching them gently to accept a certain amount of restraint. Because if they ever have to go to a vet or a groomers, it's better if they understand what is going on. Personally, I prefer to click and treat for allowing me to handle body parts and gently restrain. The reason many dogs panic and behave badly is because they don't understand, and the tech/groomer/whoever isn't taking the time to explain.


Thanks for the additional comments. I suspect my timing is worse than average  so there's no way I'd use the chain collar even just to jingle. 



Pawzk9 said:


> It's really a very old book. I've got it around here somewhere and should look at the publish date. Early 90s, maybe?


According to Kilcommons' wikipedia page and the Amazon listing, it's (c) 1992. Ancient in terms of dog knowledge.

At least I'm learning what *not* to do while I learn what to do.


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