# Teaching pup bite inhibition...



## Siye (Sep 8, 2009)

Hello there!

I've just started raising an 8 week old jindo pup, but my main concern is his biting. When he's calm he won't bite much but when he's excited he LOVES to bite on my socks, ankles, hands etc. A few times it's enough to break the skin.
I don't know what I need to do to make him stop.

I've tried the yelping technique (I shriek out) but he just keeps going. And after that I stop responding to him, place him in his room for about 10 min. I open the door and he'll start doing it again. 

I don't think this can be instantly changed, but I really don't think this method is working. He chews on his toys aplenty but seems to like nipping people even more. 

I even had to cut outside play short because he wouldn't let go of my laces.

Most of you won't be familiar, so let me just explain this is a hunting breed, with close primitive ties and therefore I think he will need a stronger method to get through.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Yelping anytime the teeth touches skin or clothing is only half of the technique. You also have to stop all play immediately. If that means YOU have to leave the room (he doesn't leave the room you do) then, so be it. He wants to play with you/wants your attention...removing yourself shows him that his playmate won't interact with him when he bites. This also means no talking to him and not even looking at him when he does this.


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## Siye (Sep 8, 2009)

Well I'm confused. 

Am I supposed to yelp and then isolate+ ignore him by either leaving myself or putting him alone in a room... OR am I supposed to just stand still and ignore him?

I've tried both and neither work. He especially attacks my laces with such force he's almost ripping them off.

I've also tried leaving the room myself. I drag myself out while he's still biting and he just follows along.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

The Yelp should (repeat...should) let the pup know that biting is wrong/too hard. If the pup doesn't get the message (you'll know he understands when he backs away) then, you stop all play and walk away. If he tries to attack your feet stomp your foot on the floor before he can reach you...startle him...make him stop in his tracks. Continue to leave. 

When you come back is the really important part...what does he have to do to get your attention, get his playmate back? Some folks teach the dog to get a ball for a game of fetch, a toy or a tug for playtime. For petting/cuddling/affection/attention some teach the dog to sit politely....again, your choice but, the point is to teach the dog exactly what he has to do to earn your attention.


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## Siye (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm still having trouble with this.

I've made very little progress and I've tried several different methods. 
Isolating myself or the dog by either leaving or putting the dog in a small confined area (room) has had little effect. Isolating the dog in a room seemed to have a working effect (he hated it and would whine like crazy) but little difference would occur afterwards.

Redirecting his biting with a toy is something I do often as well. It works, but he may choose to chew on the hands a few more times before going back to the toy. 

Yelping definitely does not work. I just yelled out NO twice (once as a warning) and either removed myself or the pup.

The only encouraging thing is that his biting seems to be controlled. He def bites us softer than his toys (but not our clothes) and only makes the mistake occasionally when he's too excited. But he's a medium sized breed and his play bites can still hurt.

P.S. When I'm rubbing his tummy occasional he will whip his head around and try to bite. I don't like this (I feel he is trying to assert his dominance) and would like some tips as well. 

Please, I would like to know what works for most.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Jindo are very sensitive to harsh treatment and can become fearful...in fact I would bet that his belly rub sessions stress him out and that is where the nip comes from. Give up the dominance talk and work with the behaviour itself..does he OFFER you his belly or are you rolling him over for a rub? How long before he tries to nip? You are probably pushing him beyond his threshold.

As for the above advice from ambleday...this is not a flame, but a warning that using your hands to cause discomfort near the mouth CAN turn your dog into someone who cannot be handled safely. Your vets, groomers etc will thank you if you do not use this method. 

When I come across a pup that will not respond to the yelp and remove attention technique I use a leash settle. Pup on leash, gets too wild, leash is put under your shoe so that it is short enough that pup cannot stand up comfortably. Wait. EVENTUALLY (this is an exercise in patience for YOU too) he will lie down. No rewards, no talking, just "no fun"...hold for ten seconds or so (if you can get it that long) and then release him and toss a toy or have him sit or whatever...

I also recommend you train the settle at other times...when you are watching tv reading the paper etc put him in a settle next to you for a couple of minutes..gradually building up the time spent in the settle. 

You will find this a very helpful exercise for teaching a down stay AND for him learning to turn off his jets on cue. Be aware though, that he still needs to get his jollies out...so be sure to play toy toss, tug or have fun training sessions and let him have his occasional puppy zoomies! Feed him in a kong so he has to work for his meals and this will reduce his energy level as well. 

If he grabs your pants etc get a tug toy and teach him to play it. Good luck


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## Siye (Sep 8, 2009)

Thank you for the responses.

They have been helpful! 

Cracker - Yes, because you need to be careful with this breed, I'm really trying to avoid any form of physical punishment with the pup. I tried shutting his muzzle closed with my hand for a little while but he would only retaliate and bite back harder. Really no point in using that method. 

The belly rub appears to be consensual. He'll be lying down and when I come up to him and start rubbing, he'll roll over to make it easier. I've never rolled him over myself. He tries to snap at my hands but they don't appear to be forceful. Sometimes he'll stay still for a bit.. others he'll just try to bite as soon as I start rubbing. 

He gets ALOT of chew time out of inanimate objects. Sometimes I wonder if that's his only way of having fun besides eating. ^^;;; I have the usual rope toys, balls, plush.. and he loves roughin up mats too.

The thing I noticed... he doesn't really lick very much. I know he's just using his mouth to say hi, but I just need to communicate that it isn't appropriate. Should I continue and try to get his bites to soften more, or try to eliminate the biting completely??

Oh yes, how would growling work in response? Has anyone tried that???


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Just a couple of bits to add. The timeout doesn't need to be more than a couple of minutes. The dog will likely long forget why he's on a timeout if it's more than that. But more importantly, a shorter timeout affords more opportunity to pair the consequence. 

Often when I read someone saying yelping doesn't work, it has more to do with the handler's lack of persistence than it does the actual technique. So keep that attitude in mind with whatever method you choose, you have to be more persistent than the dog for it to work. And, the 'a-ha' moment can come quickly after a lot of seemingly endless frustration.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> So keep that attitude in mind with whatever method you choose, you have to be more persistent than the dog for it to work. And, the 'a-ha' moment can come quickly after a lot of seemingly endless frustration.


Yup. Brenda Aloff says in her book "Get Connected with Your Dog.." that you need to out last the dog.


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## Siye (Sep 8, 2009)

Yelping doesn't work because he just ignores it.. or sometimes bites back harder (increased excitement most likely). He just continues on biting.

When I isolated him, it was a few minutes. I would give a warning no, then a second no. I isolated him quickly for atleast 2-3 min first go. If I let him out and he starts biting again (happens frequently) I say no again and then isolate him up to 5 min. 

These time outs happened atleast 10 times a day for a week and nothing much has changed. :/


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

FWIW, teaching bite inhibition is a lifelong task, there is no definitive time table, and one week's assessment is not fair to the bigger picture. 

Also you need to expect it to get worse before it gets better.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Leather work gloves and slip on rubber-boots will eliminate the hand/ankle biting pain. This will get you through the needle sharp teeth problem which do hurt if your not protected.

No force used for this problem (trying to close pup's mouth)because he is a puppy and I will repeat what I have said many times, puppies like babies can do no wrong.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Siye said:


> Yelping doesn't work because he just ignores it.. or sometimes bites back harder (increased excitement most likely). He just continues on biting.


If you're trying to correct the biting after it's already happened you're doing it the hard way. It's much easier to stop it BEFORE it happens. By now, you know when he's going to bite....don't let him.



> When I isolated him, it was a few minutes. I would give a warning no, then a second no. I isolated him quickly for atleast 2-3 min first go. If I let him out and he starts biting again (happens frequently) I say no again and then isolate him up to 5 min.
> 
> These time outs happened atleast 10 times a day for a week and nothing much has changed. :/


The time out itself doesn't fix the problem. When he came out of the time-out he gave you a NEW behavior...he didn't immediately charge out of the crate and bite you did he?.....he stood there...looked at you...wagged his tail......followed you.....he did something nice besides biting. That's what gets your praise, treats and attention....not the biting. If you skipped that training step, you might as well skip the timeout.


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## Siye (Sep 8, 2009)

I'm reading through everything but I have a question.... the play biting.. will it just go away on its own? 

I'm hearing mixed opinions on this... so I don't know what to believe.

About my pup biting right after the time out... it will usually be something like he looks at me.. then targets my socks/shoes and start biting again. When my hands are to my sides, alot of the time he'll jump up to bite as well.

Is nilf something I should try right now?

Should I continue with the isolation technique?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

No, the play biting will only get worse. 
When you see his head drop to bite your shoes or ankles or you see him getting ready to jump for your hands...bull rush him. Invade his space before he invades yours. Yes, startle him into stopping in his tracks. Now comes the praise for standing calmly. 

NILF should be done from day 1 and it's never too late.


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## Siye (Sep 8, 2009)

This is an update on my dog's situation.

He's about 3.5 months now and close to 30 pounds (how he has gained 3/5s of his total body weight I do not know). 

The biting is well worse.
I had one amazing breakthrough day a couple weeks ago (yelping would work) and he would immediately just lick and cease his biting. But after that one day his behaviour returned to normal. 

He's constantly nibbling on hands which usually isn't TOO bad, but rarely when he's really excited and snapping + jumping at the same time he aims for the face (esp when I'm sitting or kneeling over) and teeth grazing my face has been pretty scary (although no injuries). 

I tried the leash technique. Once though he was acting so crazy with it shortened that he panicked and almost strangled himself. I took the leash off immediately but he looked immensely hurt and frightened and wouldn't even come near me for awhile. 

I've been constantly redirecting his mouth to toys. It works most of the time but now less and less. I put a toy in front of his face, he'll just avoid it and start chewing on my hands. He just finds it immensely conforting. The biting is best when he's sleepy since he doesn't have the energy to bite but only constantly licks my hands (Yes, I praise him when he licks, of course). 

I'm constantly hearing that I should wait it out, but I'm troubled. Soon he won't be puppy sized anymore and puppy teeth will be replaced with adult ones. 

What should I do?


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

There are only two parts to this....Biting/nibbling is not allowed/it's stopped before it even starts. That's the easy part. 

The 2nd part is the harder one....redirecting to another activity. If he can't use his teeth to get your attention/some playtime....what does he have to do?....get a ball, a toy, a tug? You have to teach him how to play a different way (no teeth on skin). 

And, no, you don't wait this out.....the training continues.


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## mikedavid00 (Oct 15, 2007)

Siye said:


> Hello there!
> 
> I've just started raising an 8 week old jindo pup, but my main concern is his biting. When he's calm he won't bite much but when he's excited he LOVES to bite on my socks, ankles, hands etc. A few times it's enough to break the skin.
> I don't know what I need to do to make him stop.


I'm a new dog owner myself but have seen tons of videos and such on dog obedience. 

There is postive and negative re-enforcement training. From what I understand, both work, but many times one will work best for a certain situation.

For things like biting and humping that you REALLY don't want the dog to do, I would recommend negative re-enforcement obedience. From what I understand it is the most effective way to get results but you DONT want to use it on everything. Only the most serious things you don't want the dog to be doing.

Negative re-enforcement would mean the dog is assocating something bad will happen (usually pain) when it does something you don't want.

What a lot of people use are electronic shock collars becuase it uses negative re-enforcement without it being traced back to the owner. So you can play with the dog, your dh can watch, and when he bites, he gets a zap and you can just keep playing. The dog wont know it was you. He just knows when he bites he gets a shock and doesn't like it so he'll quickly make the association. 

I saw this BBC movie featuring this dog obedience expert specializing in protection to do work in Bangledesh. The forest over there has tigers that were going into the villiages and eating people. So they got local stray dogs to be trained as watched dogs. The dogs were naturally out of control and wild. Man. You should have seen the negative re-enforcement. She took the dog, BIG DOG, grabbed it by the scruff and punched it in the lips i think. She knew how to hit the dogs to get them in line. Another one she punched REALLY hard. Sure enough the dogs saw her as pack leader and it was amazing how they were transforned. At first they were fighting with each other and out of control.

Now of course don't hit the dog in a home situation. I read on a site you can twist their ear which is a common method. I'm sure there's other things you can do the dog wont like. I would probably just get the collar incase the problem returns.

And if you do use the negative re-enforcement obedience, it will most likely work, but don't be tempted to use it for other things because too much and they can develop a scaredy personality. Only use it for the 1 or 2 essential things you do not want the dog doing.

We're really lucky, our puppy doesn't bit at all. I hope things work out. Keep us please


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Okay, I'm going to be nice..really.

Do not take the above poster's advice. PUPPIES should be taught their manners with positive reinforcement or negative punishment (leash timeouts, crate timeouts and management). If your puppy is easily exciteable any sort of harsh treatment will INCREASE his excitement and therefore his nibbling/biting/leaping etc. Jindo are known for being tough but sensitive dogs and you do NOT want a fearful Jindo. Period.

If the stickie called "the bite stops here" here in the forum is not working than you may have to tweak it a bit, but punishment really isn't the answer.

You want books?
'The Power or Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller
"The Puppy Whisperer" by Paul Owens
'Before and After Getting your Puppy" by Ian Dunbar (I believe it is available for download at www.dogstardaily.com ) and some of his stuff is above in the stickies as well.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

In addition to the above, don't discount the value of a well-socialized, "fair" older (or age-mate) dogs in developing bite inhibition. 

Of course you need to be very confident of the other dogs' personalities, etc.


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## mikedavid00 (Oct 15, 2007)

Cracker said:


> Okay, I'm going to be nice..really.
> 
> Do not take the above poster's advice. PUPPIES should be taught their manners with positive reinforcement or negative punishment (leash timeouts, crate timeouts and management). If your puppy is easily exciteable any sort of harsh treatment will INCREASE his excitement and therefore his nibbling/biting/leaping etc. Jindo are known for being tough but sensitive dogs and you do NOT want a fearful Jindo. Period.
> 
> ...


Well to each their own. You recommend using the crate as a correctional tool, yet many people say never to use the crate for correctional purposes. There's always differening viewpoints on how to train dogs. 

I believe pain and negative re-enforcement to be natural to dogs. It just shouldn't be used very often or unless you have to. Correcting 1 single behaviour I doubt would do any damage.

If I was in that situation, I would get a shock collar. The shock doesn't hurt the dog per say, but rather feels uncomfortable to the dog. You can set the level of the shock intensity so it's not strong. 

I would also say the puppy is the best time to teach it not to bite. If it continues, the dog may get given away and keep coming back to the shelter.
My old boss actually gave away his addopted dog because it would bite them. He did this after his wife got pregnant and the dog could not be trusted around children. So the dog ends back up at the shelter twice only to be given away to someone else. People will never be upfront of why they are giving their dogs away. This is why I dislike shelters.

So for these sort of 'bigger' problems, sure I would recommend negative re-enforcement to correct the behavior. Time-outs and such I just don't feel would be effective at all. 

Just my 2 pennies..


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Hi MikeDavid.

I do see where you are coming from and agree that biting and bite inhibition is paramount in puppy training to have a safe adult dog. 
But I want to clarify a couple of points:
Using the crate as time outs is not meant to be done angrily or as an overt punishment, it is to be used when the puppy is getting worked up, you lead him to the crate, give him something to do in there ( a chew bone etc) and then leave him for a minute or two. The actual punishment is YOU leaving the pup, teaching him that interaction with the human is dependent on good behaviour. This can also be attained by tethering the pup to a piece of furniture and leaving the room for a moment. I totally agree that using the crate as overt punishment (BAD DOG GET IN YOUR CRATE!) is a sure way to create a problem with the crate itself. 

Also, even trainers who use punishment/correction in their training do not recommend using correction collars on young puppies. Most collar training is done AFTER a full training has been done with positive reinforcement and they are pretty darn sure the dog KNOWS the cues, usually at older than 6 months of age. The puppy in the OP's post is only about 4 months old. Respect for the human is built through training and relationship...if you start getting physical too soon with a developing puppy they can learn that YOU are scary, your hands are scary etc...this can really mess up a lot of things. 

Sure pain is a part of life, much of an animals life is spent learning through what I call "environmental corrections"..you touch a hot burner, you get burned. But in training dogs much of what they learn about being in OUR world (which is three quarters of what they need to know, based on what WE want) is learned through repetition, consistency and rewards for good behaviour. Most of the behaviours we want in a dog are not their natural state of being so it's a lot of work to teach a dog not to use their mouths, not to treat humans like dogs, to walk on a loose leash, to NOT chase that cat across the street etc. A stressed organism (human as well) does not learn well if they are stressed. Punishment works, reinforcement works..but if you want a PUPPY who knows NOTHING at this point to learn, the lower the stress the better the learning curve.

I hope this has clarified these things for you. 

Your two cents is certainly welcome, but do be careful when recommending things like in your post...there are a lot of people that read these but don't participate in the discussion who may take it that it is okay to try and train your dog by the examples from that film you mentioned or by putting an ecollar on a 3 month old puppy. Neither bode well for the dog's life.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Listen to TooneyDog. Don't expect a puppy to give up such an instinctive behavior very quickly or without persistent corrections. 

Young Labs, which I know best, and other puppies tend to very bad about biting. You see a litter of them, and all the ones that are awake are biting another one or themselves. I am not even sure they realize that when they are alone, if they quit biting, they would quit being bitten. At 3 to 4 months they are getting their adult teeth, and it seems they spend every waking moment biting or chewing. One thing you can do at that stage is to knot and wet a piece of cloth. Then freeze it. The cooling will soothe the gums. Only let the puppy have it when you are there to watch it. I maintain a Lab's favorite chew toy is another Lab. Otherwise they settle for any person they can. They keep hoping to find one that won't yelp, jerk their hand away, and leave.

You just have to keep on correcting them, hundreds of times, not dozens. Provide sturdy, safe toys such as Kongs and Nylabones. Avoid things they can chew pieces off and choke on them. Keep them away from electrical cords. Crates are essential for most young Labs and other dogs.

I view biting during belly rubs as the short attention span wanting to do something else. Belly rubs are important. 

''Elevation for small puppies: Sit on the floor and gently put your hands around your pup's middle, below his front legs, and lift him up. He is facing you. Hold him for 15 seconds. Repeat until he no longer struggles. If he is past 10-12 weeks, lift his front feet off the ground, but don't pick him up.

Cradling for small puppies: Hold your puppy gently on his back, as you would cradle a small baby. If he struggles, hold him firmly until he quiets for 10-15 seconds. With larger pups, you can do this as your sit on the floor, with your pup between your legs.

Quiet lying down: Place your pup on the floor on his side, with all 4 legs pointing away from you. Use your hands on his neck/shoulder area and middle, to hold him in this position. When he is quiet, praise him. Lengthen the time that you keep him quietly in this position. When he accepts this position well, handle his paws and muzzle, while keeping him quiet.''

The quotes mean this isn't my original work. It is copied from my Puppy Raising Manual. I have long used these or minor variations of them, and they are very effective. You may want to give him a belly rub while he is on his back too. Helps bonding. There is a big difference between him rolling over and demanding a belly rub, and you choosing a time to roll him over and rub his belly. The latter cements your place as pack leader.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

mikedavid00 said:


> I'm a new dog owner myself but have seen tons of videos and such on dog obedience.


Keep this in mind first and foremost on the rest of this poster's advice. NO first hand experience.. 



mikedavid00 said:


> For things like biting and humping that you REALLY don't want the dog to do, I would recommend negative re-enforcement obedience. From what I understand it is the most effective way to get results but you DONT want to use it on everything. Only the most serious things you don't want the dog to be doing.


The most effective way to stop a behavior is NOT to use punishment but to teach the dog an alternative behavior, such as "LIE DOWN" and have the dog do THAT when he is doing something you do not want. Replace inappropriate behavior with something you do want. 



mikedavid00 said:


> Negative re-enforcement would mean the dog is assocating something bad will happen (usually pain) when it does something you don't want.


IF you get the timing right. IF your dog understands it is the BEHAVIOR being punished and not something else. IF your dog understands a cue CLEARLY and is CLEARLY disobeying that cue. IF your dog does not associate the behavior with the aversive he may become fearful and suspicious of YOU. 



mikedavid00 said:


> What a lot of people use are electronic shock collars becuase it uses negative re-enforcement without it being traced back to the owner. So you can play with the dog, your dh can watch, and when he bites, he gets a zap and you can just keep playing. The dog wont know it was you. He just knows when he bites he gets a shock and doesn't like it so he'll quickly make the association.


The worst advice I have read in a long time. DO NOT DO THIS. YOU COULD BE BADLY BITTEN AND HURT. 

I had a class last week (I am there observing) and the instructor placed an E collar on a dog that is aggressive. The dog did not associate the e collar with the behavior and, instead, associated it with the thing he was aggressing AT and the AGGREESSION ESCALATED. This dog BIT three times.. and he had NEVER bitten before. 

The stim level was right.. everything was "right" except the dog's association. IF you put an e collar on a dog that is biting and zap him while he is play biting you, he may immediately stop the play biting and bite you for real instead. 

E Collars are not for people who are as admited by this poster as being:


> I'm a new dog owner myself but have seen tons of videos and such on dog obedience.





mikedavid00 said:


> I saw this BBC movie featuring this dog obedience expert specializing in protection to do work in Bangledesh. The forest over there has tigers that were going into the villiages and eating people. So they got local stray dogs to be trained as watched dogs. The dogs were naturally out of control and wild. Man. You should have seen the negative re-enforcement. She took the dog, BIG DOG, grabbed it by the scruff and punched it in the lips i think. She knew how to hit the dogs to get them in line. Another one she punched REALLY hard. Sure enough the dogs saw her as pack leader and it was amazing how they were transforned. At first they were fighting with each other and out of control.


Why would ANYONE post this? It has nothing to do with 'pack leader.' This has to do with instilling fear. It is called BULLYING. 

Remember again:


mikedavid00 said:


> I'm a new dog owner myself but have seen tons of videos and such on dog obedience.





mikedavid00 said:


> Now of course don't hit the dog in a home situation. I read on a site you can twist their ear which is a common method. I'm sure there's other things you can do the dog wont like. I would probably just get the collar incase the problem returns.


Great. Now we have advice to create horrendous pain in an animal we want as a pet.. as a companion.. with the ONLY intent being to cause huge pain to the dog. 

DO NOT do this. 



mikedavid00 said:


> *I'm a new dog owner myself but have seen tons of videos and such on dog obedience. *
> And if you do use the negative re-enforcement obedience, it will most likely work, but don't be tempted to use it for other things because too much and they can develop a scaredy personality. Only use it for the 1 or 2 essential things you do not want the dog doing.


Geeze.. you have a PUPPY... not some 3,000 pound fire breathing beast from Satan... 

Please get professional help and do not do the practices suggested here by the MikeDavid poster who is as experienced as this:


mikedavid00 said:


> I'm a new dog owner myself but have seen tons of videos and such on dog obedience.


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## mikedavid00 (Oct 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Keep this in mind first and foremost on the rest of this poster's advice. NO first hand experience..


Hey now 

It's unfair to the owner to only give positive re-enforcement techniques to correct this behavior. She should be aware of the other ways to correct this behavior so she can make her own descision.

Any first chapter of any dog obedience book or video will explain negative vs. postivie re-enforcement. Usually people will take sides on how they prefer to train. Not me though as I think both are good and work if used properly.

The real truth of the debate is that both are good and both work. Some work better in some situations than others. Some training might take longer than others. Also breeds and temperment make a difference where some dogs like a Bichon might do well with positive re-enforcement and a wolf might need negative.

Also, negative re-enforcement is natural to dogs, cats, and other animals actually. It's the most natural form of obedience. 

Here is a pro trainer showing how to train with a shock collar. They feature a dog that has bitten a child and is a bit out of control so they will use 'remote collar' training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zgFTXmJKw4

Under her circumstances, considering the breed and severaty of the problem (breaking skin and full strenth bites on clothing) and considering the age, I would personally get a shock collar and use it right when the dog starts to bite. Turn down the shock to a low setting. It wont hurt the dog, but he wont like the shock.

I do not think positive re-enforcement training is called for under her circumstances. 

Of course, I admit my opinion is worth ---> 2 cents


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Okay, I'm going to be nice..really.
> 
> .



Having raised 3 litters of jindo's from 3 different vastly different circumstances, raised many litters of other breeds/mixes (that many say you do not use corrections on or at least if you do you cannot accomplish anything but no good). I would repectfully disagree with such absolutes and generalizations. I have started at about 8 weeks teaching all the pups I have help raise bite inhibition.... and often use/d corrections (although not exclusively) to which never came back to bite me in the scheme of things..

WOW! I do not know how to respond to a absolute except that I have absolutely experienced something different that goes against the grain concerning this issue and the use of corrections

.. I wonder what other dogs or the mother dog does to find resolution with a mouthy pup/dog in various situations? 

I bet there are many different possibilities. The best way and the most effective way can be for some... simply the most effective way in which to solve the issue. Sometimes the most effective way for different circumstances and situiations is not always a same way or the most popular way.

The only material suggestion that I could provide at this point considering what has been said in the do's and DON'Ts is that I would suggest one should be leary of taking what anyone says for the gospel truth one way or the other 

For example I would NEVER use a shock collar on a 8 week old pup....
Does this mean that it would not or could not work? NO..


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Sparkle..am I gonna have to preface everything I say now?
Jindo ARE known for being tough AND sensitive. I have met a few, worked with a few but do not have the extensive experience you have. But this point is not really important in the posts anyway. REGARDLESS of breed, taking a puppy, AN INFANT ANIMAL and using extreme corrections like an ecollar or twisting the puppies ear to work on bite inhibition is just plain wrong. 

I also believe, in MY opinion, that our dogs KNOW we are humans, not dogs, so punishment meant to mimic a muzzle correction from a mother dog is not useful. I also believe that dogs need to learn that human hands are SAFE as this helps to bring about a safer dog. But that is MY opinion.



Elana55 said:


> Geeze.. you have a PUPPY... not some 3,000 pound fire breathing beast from Satan...
> 
> Please get professional help and do not do the practices suggested here by the MikeDavid poster who is as experienced as this:


Elana, thank you for being so direct in your post.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Sparkle..am I gonna have to preface everything I say now?..
> 
> 
> REGARDLESS of breed, taking a puppy, AN INFANT ANIMAL and using extreme corrections like an ecollar or twisting the puppies ear to work on bite inhibition is just plain wrong.
> ...


You are entitled to say anything in whatever fashion you choose and should you feel second thoughts about what or how you say them it is not my burden to bare. However your usage of the word extreme injects a wide range of inuindo for debate and opinion.


Dogs also know I would speculate that tools such as a GL, prong collar, and choke collar and any other device although designed to administer aversives similiar to a mother or another dog is not the same either ...although they have benefits in gaining various resolution for certain issues as a correction.

I hear that argument time and again however and It has been proven incorrect ( corrections verses who administers them) in terms of possibilties to solving specific issues with the use of corrections.

I think it would be safe for me to assume from all that you write that you probably feel that under most circumstances the use of aversive corrections on any dog cannot work, will not work, should not be used, and are wrong.

. 

Not to sound rude but just too many generaliztions and emotion based jargon (FEEL SAFE AND WRONG for example) for me to sift thru for any further comment. I would much easier deal with /welcome someone calling me a liar or challenging me to prove what I have said then putting so much energy into pointing out/challenging people when they come across as so one sided and absolute. As far as ones experience goes (in my opinion) wether extensive or not it depends on the issue and any inaccuracies that can be proven in statements that one may project ....as to how much value can be placed on it. 

As long as you believe in what you do and say then that is the important thing at the moment regardless of what anyone else thinks.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Emotion based jargon? 

http://companionanimalsolutions.com...dification-techniques-and-the-risk-to-owners/

My opinions are based on research, science and experience. I do get 'emotional' about how people train their dogs and there is nothing wrong with that..the training methods I recommend are the least apt to cause fallout and on an internet forum where we cannot directly access or view the dogs behaviour and the environment, it is the safest type of training that can be used, both for the dogs and for the owners, who are OFTEN not of the handling experience you and I may have.



> You are entitled to say anything in whatever fashion you choose and should you feel second thoughts about what or how you say them it is not my burden to bare. However your usage of the word extreme injects a wide range of inuindo for debate and opinion


Using an ecollar on a 2 month old puppy is not extreme?




> Dogs also know I would speculate that tools such as a GL, prong collar, and choke collar and any other device although designed to administer aversives similiar to a mother or another dog is not the same either ...although they have benefits in gaining various resolution for certain issues as a correction


.

Not sure what this sentence is saying...can you clarify this for me? I THINK you are saying that GL, etc, are using aversives similar to a muzzle correction or scruff that a mother dog would do...I agree. But it's still not your HANDS doing the aversive correction.



> I hear that argument time and again however and It has been proven incorrect ( corrections verses who administers them) in terms of possibilties to solving specific issues with the use of corrections.


Again, what are you saying here (the sentence is awkward)? What argument do you mean specifically?



> Not to sound rude but just too many generalaztions and emotion based jargon (FEEL SAFE AND WRONG for example) for me to sift thru for any further comment. I would much easier deal with welcome someone calling me a liar or challenging me to prove what I have said then putting so much energy into pointing out/challenging people when they come across as so one sided and absolute.


You'd rather me call you a liar? Hmm. I have to say this is the first time I've been called "one sided and absolute". So, as much as you have tried NOT to sound rude....



> As long as you believe in what you do and say then that is the important thing at the moment regardless of what anyone thinks


.......


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Emotion based jargon?
> 
> [
> 
> ...


I have read all that stuff from both/all sides time and again in dozens of different ways and continue to do so....and have my own experiences..I was/worked with scientists in corporate America for 11 years and do know something about it. Does my science background make my opinion the truth? I would think not and the same would apply to everyone and everything else concerning who holds the card of absolute truth. 

Also worked with a very famous Dolphin trainer for a very short time who recently was one of the top trainers for the military who has told me things that contridict what some other famous dolphin trainers say if that means anything...which it may not depending on ones agenda to perspective.

I often refer to pointing out that scientists once thought the world to be flat untill another one discovered it was not.

my previous posts addressed all of the issues in your last post to include a what if.... concerning the shock collar.


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## mikedavid00 (Oct 15, 2007)

I think there are a lot of emotional issues surrounding negative re-enforcement training and yes people take sides based on emotional discharge. I think this happens when "people think dogs are little people with fur on them rather than animals"._ (that last sentance I got off a dog training video on youtube.. the director of a dog shelter herself said this - not me)._ I guess people think using a shock collar or prong collar is the same as putting this on a human child and can't bare the thought.

The shock from an remote collar doesn't feel painful. It feels akward and the dog doesn't like it. 

There are tons of videos on Youtube where people are putting the collar on themselves and horsing around with the shock collars.

There is also a dog trainer who does personalized behavioral training in BC who specializes in remote collars. She even has a DVD all about training with remote collars. She specializes in training dogs that have a history of biting and are unruly.

Under the OP's circumstances and seing as she's not a dog breeder/trainer etc, I would surely use negative re-enforcement for the biting because those behaviors if not corrected can result in the dog ending up in the shelter and being passed around its whole life.

Of course my opinion is worth 0.02


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

mikedavid00 said:


> The shock from an remote collar doesn't feel painful. It feels akward and the dog doesn't like it.
> 
> )


I apologize and this is why I have no friends in the dog world ..but having used remote e-collars that have the capability of administering shock (continuous,pulse, nick, or tap at various levels ), tones/sound/intercom, vibration, and chemicals and know many people who do/have ....I would disagree that all the electric voltages/amperage administered to dogs by such devices in certain or some cases are painless and especially discomforting which also can induce stress at some point along with result in negative backlash behaviors and associations... 

I am not however dictating/saying/implying that YOU or everyone else uses the collar in this manner. 


I know for a fact the posibilities to cause pain and discomfort depending on how you/one can use them, end up using them, or intend to use them for a threshold level correction or punishment. How does one measure the discomfort or pain a dog might feel?

So again for me another illustration of the complexities in communicating.....with such absolutes.

I think I had better take a long break and leave such endless debates for others who feel a need to dive in the waters.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Until you, MikeDavid, have learned to successfully USE the techniques you are recommending, I think it is dangerous to recommend them.. ESPECIALLY on an internet forum where someone else could quickly segue from correction to cruel.

Experienced, professional dog trainers who are more correction based do not suggest specific techniques such as you have on this forum for that very reason. 

I have a lot of tools in my dog training tool box from food rewards and a clicker to a shock collar. IMO the situation as described by the original poster does not warrant going all the way to the far end of the tool box and reaching for a shock collar or an ear pinch. That is far too extreme for a dog of this age, regardless of breed.. again from the OP's presentation and from not meeting the dog personally. 

None of us have seen the puppy or the owner or seen the two interacting. Honestly, with out being there, it is impossible to make extreme reco0mmendations. We might look at this situation and might see that this is truly that one in ten million puppy that needs something extreme but I doubt it. We also might see something so simple, so minor that the owner could do to fix the issue that we all would be laughing (dog and owner included). 

E Collar work is not something you read about and then do.. it is something that really needs to be taught by a professional who is already in that loop. I would expand this discussion to most aversive corrections and especially as those corrections increase in severity. 

For this reason and for the damage that can be done if not done correctly (reading the dog), I do not recommend them on any internet forum. 

If the issue is so severe the owner is considering an E collar or other severe aversive, it is time for the owner to go to a professional who can see the dog and make an ascertian. 

Of course, the issue at that point is going to be finding a good, trustworthy, honest and fair dog trainer or behaviorist. That can be harder sometimes than figuring out the dog.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Until you, MikeDavid, have learned to successfully USE the techniques you are recommending, I think it is dangerous to recommend them.. ESPECIALLY on an internet forum where someone else could quickly segue from correction to cruel.
> 
> Experienced, professional dog trainers who are more correction based do not do suggest specific techniques such as you have on this forum for that very reason.
> 
> .


T H A N K Y O U for taking the time to explain this in such a straight forward yet elinquent way... I am not one generally that hops on the cheerleading bandwagon but this is one of those rare cases.

Thank you Elana55 so such much a unusally thoughtful reply. I hope to follow your example however unlikely that might be.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

WOW,
I've said this many times, biting puppies is one of the silliest and least important of any problems that I have faced with real live pups/dogs. I'm not gonna get into venting about the research/youtube/video gurus because in the big scheme of things it's just not that important. Everybody has their own way of accomplishing their goals.

I am an old Star Trek fan and you should see the Enterprise that I built and have been cruising around space in. It was easy, I read a few books and watched the weekly program and had it built in 12 days.

An e-collar on an 8 week old puppy is the same way I potty broke my kid whenever he had an accident in diaper, I shocked him, since he was a lot smarter than any 8 week old pup I ever met it only took a week. I read the book "Potty Breaking For Dummies" He was fine as he grew up, of course he stuttered a lot and spent 6 yrs in 5th grade but all was good.

I start real live pups/dogs from 4.5 months up to 2 years, when I stop calling them pups and a lot of the younger pups have bad habits of hand biting and chewing biting on the leads and barking etc. 10 minutes 1st workout is done and so is the biting.


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## sparkle (Mar 3, 2009)

wvasko said:


> WOW,
> I've said this many times, biting puppies is one of the silliest and least important of any problems that I have faced with real live pups/dogs. I'm not gonna get into venting about the research/youtube/video gurus because in the big scheme of things it's just not that important. Everybody has their own way of accomplishing their goals.
> 
> I.


Thats another interesting way of putting it wvasko I always enjoy and can appreciate a tongue-in-cheek example myself.LOL 


I want to be clear on my only issue/point of contention to all that has been said and the manner in which I responded. I certainly do not want to seem supportive of using a shock collar on a puppy of this age (regardless of breed).


"
PUPPIES should be taught their manners with positive reinforcement or negative punishment (leash timeouts, crate timeouts and management). If your puppy is easily exciteable any sort of harsh treatment will INCREASE his excitement and therefore his nibbling/biting/leaping etc. Jindo are known for being tough but sensitive dogs and you do NOT want a fearful Jindo. Period."

I have used hand corrections for 8 week old and older jindo pups for biting/teeth usage on human flesh effectively and on many other breeds and ages of dogs for that matter.

Maybe I was too sensitive in my reaction 
after having stepping back/out and taking a less E M O T I O N A L look. I sometimes am too quick to react to anything that I feel is misleading and it is one of my faults. 

Cracker if you are listening  
I apologize ... 

I think you offer some great advice in (most )cases. One day maybe you will become perfect like me.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

sparkle said:


> T H A N K Y O U for taking the time to explain this in such a straight forward yet elinquent way... I am not one generally that hops on the cheerleading bandwagon but this is one of those rare cases.
> 
> Thank you Elana55 so such much a unusally thoughtful reply. I hope to follow your example however unlikely that might be.


Thanks but it would all work out much better if I could proof my own typing.... 

If you follow me there are a few things you need to know... if I am in line at the supermarket it is guaranteed the person ahead of me will need a price check for an obscure, unmarked item AFTER you have unloaded fully half of your grocery cart...

...And I deal with a LOT of poop (guvmint job) so you need to step high. 

Meanwhile, I am off to Zoom around in space on WVasko's Star ship. I always wanted to do things at Warp 8, but I figured I was too old. Now I see Wvasko doing it so that means I can too! 

Beam me up Scotty!


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## mikedavid00 (Oct 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> Until you, MikeDavid, have learned to successfully USE the techniques you are recommending, I think it is dangerous to recommend them.. ESPECIALLY on an internet forum where someone else could quickly segue from correction to cruel..


Again those are just personal viewpoints and opinions. The eCollar being cruel is just your own personal opinion. If they were cruel they would not be used or not be legal for sale regardless of personal viewpoints.

I was just saying what I would do if I had the problem of the OP. 

Yes they come with instructions that you can follow. The key is in the shock timing and strength to correct he behavior. Lots of videos showing remote collar training.

I stated clearly that I'm a new dog owner and that my opinion was worth 2 cents. It's unfair that some people only want their opiniosn heard and not the opinions of others. That is a typical practice that goes on in 'other countries' that we should not take on over here. 

My old boss gave his dog back to the shelter due to biting issues. He used his wife being pregnant as the excuse. So twice it's been to the shelter because the biting was never under control. 

All I'm saying is there is not a single way to correct his behavior. This is just your personal opinions. You can go online and find all the experts using negative re-enforcement to correct biting. 

Heck, if you call an expert for this problem, the chances are good that they might use negative re-enforcement like that one in Florida in Youtube he'll slap the jaw shut like he did in the video. It doesn't hurt but causes a vibration in the skull that the dog does not like.

I'm just saying there's other options out there because what she is trying is not working. She's keeps coming back asking for help and since nothing is working, I recommened negative re-enforcement. 

If you have* personal opinions *that you disagree with these legal, natural, and used methods for obedience then that's fine. 

But you guys shouldn't be the only one allowed to have an opinion on this topic.

I would personally bypass the behavioral expert (due to $) and get the collar and learn to use it properly to train the pup not to bite. Hopefully he'll learn not to bite and wont bite again.

She can decide what she wants to do after hearing both opinions.

But or course, I'm a new dog owner and haven't had this problem so my opinion isn't worth much.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

If you re-READ what I wrote I did not say an E Collar was cruel or that aversives were cruel. I said that they could *segue from correction to cruel...*

For that reason AND because NONE OF US have SEEN THE DOG, it is poor practice to recommend such actions as "the answer." 

IF the OP needs to go that route, they also need a professional's advice in doing so.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

MichaelDavid00



> But or course, I'm a new dog owner and haven't had this problem so my opinion isn't worth much.


What your opinion is worth is still open for discussion. If as a new dog owner you have no dog training experience it will be open for discussion for a very long time.


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