# holy amazing pappions



## Iowa_Boy (May 13, 2009)

haven’t had a lot of time to post about my adventure down here at triple crown, but just recently I got a papion to work with. Most of the dogs here are shelter, however my newest one isn’t. the owner was a local breeder in the Austin area, who recently had a stroke and can no longer have her breading program. So now I have the opportunity to adopt this lil guy and I have 3 routes I can go… 1) pay 250 dollars and keep him just as a pet (get him neutered) 2) pay 500 so that I can show him at akc events 3) pay 1500 dollars for breading rights…

I really haven’t had a chance to look at his pedigree yet but from what I here he has some amazing genes in him, and what I’m wondering is if I’m crazy not to adopt him with breeding rights and use him not only as a demo dog, but a stud dog as well. I would hate to take great pappion genes out of the gene pool… I wouldn’t be trying to turn a profit with stud fees, I just want to produce good quality pappions and recoup some of the money spent on him… Anyone have advice?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

First off, it's Papillon ;-)

I would suggest either neutering him and showing him in juniors and performance, or keeping him intact and showing him in juniors, breed, and performance events. I would not advise breeding him.

You shouldn't get any dog expecting to "recoup the money you spent on them". It doesn't happen.


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## Spicy1_VV (Jun 1, 2007)

I would forget about breading rights as I don't see the point in breading a dog. Here it is usually not socially acceptable to eat dogs (in some places I think it can result in a criminal charge) so no need to bread him.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

If his ear fring is really as sparce as it looks in the photo, then it will be VERY difficult to show him succesfully in the breed ring. Ear fring is a very important part of the Papillon breed standard and dogs that don't have it don't do well.

also Papillons need their patellas OFA'ed If you don't know what OFA is I suggest you do much more research on breeding before you even think about breeding for yourself.


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## LilMissSunshine (Nov 1, 2008)

I would just stick with the pet price and have him neutered. hes a cutie and will make an amazing pet. showing is NO way to make money, in fact, you lost a lot of money lol its very expensive. As for studding him out, dog breeding is more complicated that it seems, and between health tests and all that, you wouldn't be making anything. 

and any breeder willing to offer breeding rights to anybody for $$ probably isn't a very good one.. just my opinion 

study up, learn more about the breed, attend some shows, talk to some people... that would be my suggestion. you don't seem ready to be breeding dogs, especially a breed you can't spell lol we all start out new, just do some research  

and just for future reference, the breed is P-A-P-I-L-L-O-N
and its B-R-E-E-D , not bread. bread is something you eat


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I would just neuter him if I were you. I'm just not one for breeding. I mean it takes a lot of work to show and get the champion status for the dog before breeding him. Also there are lots of tests like eyes, knees, etc. to be done.

My Papillion is a show quality little girl too. She was supposed to be kept for the breeder herself to show but since she had 2 show girls from that litter, I convinced her to sell me one of them on a spay contract. 

Nia has 29 champions including 6 international champions in her pedigree yet I still spayed her because she is just a pet. There are plenty of other Paps in the gene pool. I like to leave breeding to the professionals.

But if you want to show him, by all means go ahead. I have to say though...it's hard work for both dog and owner.


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Whether english is your first language or not, if you are even THINKING of getting into breeding, you HAVE TO be able to spell breeding and papillon. 

Just adopt him and neuter him.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I'd personally just adopt him and neuter him. Showing paps are EXPENSIVE. (And I showed mine in the same general area as you will be) We have a ton of competition. 20 isn't too uncommon and we had 60 something at a specialty once. The money it took to finish my male was insane! And even now with him finished, believe me there's no one knocking down our door dying to pay us money to breed him.  He may be bred but we certainly won't be recouping a thing from it in the long run. 



> If his ear fring is really as sparce as it looks in the photo, then it will be VERY difficult to show him succesfully in the breed ring. Ear fring is a very important part of the Papillon breed standard and dogs that don't have it don't do well.


True and not true... there are many reasons why a dog might not have much fringe. One, he's a light sable which no matter what will usually grow less fringe which is why most specials dogs are dark eared. Second, dogs who aren't being kept in show condition will often not have their fringe kept up. Growing show fringe is a tricky business and especially if the dog is around other dogs, his fringe may have been pulled out. Many handlers will even use snoods as well as constantly grooming and keeping the fringe clean and not touched (oil from hands will often cause breaks). He may really have a lot more fringe than he does now. Also if you pick your judges well, you don't need much fringe to finish a dog. Some judges will NOT put up a dog with fringing like his, but many will. It just depends on the judge and how they go about evaluating a dog. Of course the fringe is huge but if you have a really nice dog with poor fringe, it's worth a shot. And then the opposite is true too... my gorgeous girl with the beautiful three inch double fringing flunked as a show dog. She never placed once. Poor girl.

You should see my champion dog now! He has ZERO fringe thanks to Bernard.



















Even normally his fringe is nothing to write home about. But we still had no issues finishing him in a few weeks. Only one judge didn't put him up for his class. He even placed BOW at that specialty over some great dogs with a lot more fringe than he had. Now, if we'd decided to specials him, we'd have to do some major fringe growing. I will say I'm super happy Bernard has a lot of fringe AND fantastic structure. Should make things easier this go around.

But it's really hard to tell his conformation from that shot. I'd be more worried about the body structure and head shape than the ears personally. But paps are really the best dogs. You can become addicted FAST. Just a warning, lol!


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## Iowa_Boy (May 13, 2009)

I’m really sorry I cant spell everybody, I have a learning disability in most grammar areas.  I’m really glad everyone gave me the advice they did it was somewhat the direction I was headed… Its just a really great dog feel into my lap and I want to do some research before I made a decision….

On a further note where are some good resources at to learn more about this breed?


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## Locke (Nov 3, 2008)

Laurelin is a great resource!

I know some people who found www.dogbreedinfo.com/papillon.htm this useful. 
This might help too http://www.akc.org/breeds/papillon/


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Iowa_Boy said:


> I’m really sorry I cant spell everybody, I have a learning disability in most grammar areas.  I’m really glad everyone gave me the advice they did it was somewhat the direction I was headed… Its just a really great dog feel into my lap and I want to do some research before I made a decision….
> 
> On a further note where are some good resources at to learn more about this breed?


PCA is the best resource. They have a ton of info about the breed and breed history as well as the standard.

http://www.papillonclub.org/

Or try getting involved with your local club. The closest I can find is the Texas Alamo Papillon Society. We are with the Papillon Club of Tulsa.

And if you're interested in conformation (which you are by the sound of it) Then I think this is a fabulous resource:

http://www.judgesl.com/Papillon/index.html

There's pictures and it goes through the standard in more detail. It also discusses the ear argument (ears versus overall dog), talks about the differences in the breed overseas, and also talks about the blaze debate. Really it's a good read for any curious people.



Locke said:


> Laurelin is a great resource!


Aww thanks! I'm really pretty new to the breed, but I've been around a lot of papillons in the 5 years I've gotten into this breed. I can at least try to point you to someone more experienced. If you want to pm me, there's a good papillon related yahoo group I'm on.


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