# Euthanize or retrain an aggressive dog?



## MandyPandy (Mar 23, 2013)

Hello! I am a new member, and I created an account just so I could talk to someone about a problem I'm having with one of my dogs. I'm sorry, but this post will be rather long. 

I have two dogs, Max and Louie. Both originally came from shelters, lived with family for a time, and then were rehomed to us. Both are around 10-11 years old. We've had Max for about 7 years, and have had Louie for about 5 years. 

When we got Louie, he was a very scared dog. Normal sounds and movement would make him flinch, cower, and tremble. He has improved a lot over the years, but he still reacts like this if we're in a new situation or place. We also can't take him for walks, because passing cars paralyze him with fear. Luckily, we have a large fenced yard, though I know this isn't a great subsitute for good walks. He also has anxiety about being in his crate. We're on the third one because he rips the metal bars off. 

A few years ago, Louie started attacking Max. First, it was over food, so we separated them to eat. Then, Louie attacked Max for walking past him in the hallway. Then, Louie attacked because Max got too close to him when he was sleeping. There have been four fights, and each time I have to take Max to the vet for stitches. Louie does not growl before the attack. Perhaps there are warnings in his body language, but I don't see it. The part that bothers me the most is that (with the exception of food), I can't really determine the cause of the attack. Max has walked past Louie in the hallway thousands of times before and since the last attack, but something about that one time made Louie attack.

Lately, Louie has been growling at my 2 year old. I've worked very hard to make sure that my son is gentle to the animals, but he is loud and likes to run. On Monday, he growled and maybe snarled (I was in the room, but Louie's back was to me). I picked up my son and moved him away, then tugged on Louie's collar to guide him into the spare bedroom where his dog bed is. He growled at me too. 

I am scared that Louie is a ticking time bomb, and I don't feel safe with him around my toddler or our new baby. The vet checked him out and said he's old, but healthy. I meet with her again next week to discuss a plan, but she has already mentioned behavior medication, a basket muzzle, and relaxation techniques. She feels Louie's problems are stemming from his fear. She feels there is hope for Louie to be rehabilitated.

I also took him to a dog trainer with many years of experience. She also feels that Louie can be rehabilitated. She thinks Louie's aggression is based on dominance, and she wants me to go back to square one with establishing rank. Her first steps are for Louie to be in the cage all the time, except for going outside, for about 3-7 days. We're on day 2, and I'm worried this dog will have a heart attack from panic. 

Both of these experts insist that Louie can be fixed if I just try hard enough to make it work. Deep down, I feel that I'll never trust Louie. He goes months between attacks, and never the same trigger twice. I don't understand how I'll ever believe that he's been fixed. 

I brought up the idea of putting Louie down to both the vet and trainer. Both of them made me feel really bad for considering it before giving behavior modification a chance. The vet won't do "convenience euthanasia" or put down dogs for aggression unless there is a police report. I admit that our lives would be easier without Louie, and that we were in way over our heads when we took him in, but I don't think my reasoning for euthanasia is just about convenience.

I really need some thoughts from other dog owners. With rehabilitation, how will I ever know he's safe, and stop thinking that today might be the day that someone is hurt? I'm not sure who's plan for rehabilitation is better...the vet's or the trainer's? Finally, is it really so horrible that I'm still considering euthanasia?


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I can't give you much advice, but I will tell you, that you should find a different trainer. There's no such thing as "rank" and "dominance" with dogs. And if you follow her advice with that mind set, his aggression will probably get much worse. I think there is always a chance, it's really up to you if you are willing to put the time into him to try and help him. But there's no guarantee that he will be 100% better.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

MandyPandy said:


> I also took him to a dog trainer with many years of experience. She also feels that Louie can be rehabilitated. She thinks Louie's aggression is based on dominance, and she wants me to go back to square one with establishing rank. Her first steps are for Louie to be in the cage all the time, except for going outside, for about 3-7 days. We're on day 2, and I'm worried this dog will have a heart attack from panic.


She is wrong, and this is a BAD PLAN. I don't even understand the reasoning here -- how will confining an anxious dog to a crate almost 24/7 help with anxiety or behavior issues? 

Dominance/rank between dogs and humans is not a thing. Those ideas were based on very old studies done on captive, unrelated wolves. Those wolves would fight for what looked like rank in the pack. However, in the many years since, wolf researchers have learned that wild wolf packs are family groups, with the parent wolves as natural "alphas," no fighting necessary. The younger wolves do not fight the parents to try to become leader of the pack. Not only that, but dogs are far enough removed from wolves now that they don't even adhere to pack structure -- feral dogs don't even form packs. Sometimes you will see loose hierarchies among pet dogs, but even that has nothing to do with YOU. Dogs know that humans are not dogs. 

Here are some links with tons more info:

De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory
AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals
Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog
Wolf expert L. David Mech's site (he helped popularize the whole "pack order"/alpha/dominance thing, but later learned that much of what he believed was wrong, and he took it back)

If you're going to go the trainer route, please actually get a behaviorist instead -- a certified behaviorist (anyone can call him or herself a behaviorist, which is why certification is important). Trainers are great for teaching commands and manners, but not for problems like this. Make sure whoever you choose doesn't say one single word about dominance or pack order or rank or alphas. Desensitization is good -- teaching your dog that good things happen when the child is around. Some of the techniques here may help: http://fearfuldogs.com/dogs-who-are-afraid-of-people/

That said, if you do choose euthanasia, I would not condemn you. Only you can consider this situation, weigh your options, and decide whether it's safe to have the dog around your son. I would keep them separated, though, with baby gates or other barriers.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree with Syd and Crantastic. Also, what tests did your vet do? There are certain conditions (e.g., Lyme and thyroid disorders) that can cause aggressive behavior. From what I understand, thyroid tests aren't routine, so that may not have been done. If you really want to work through this, find a certified behaviorist. Some (most? all?) will require a vet's referral before working with and your dog so that any possible medical causes of aggression have been ruled out. I'm sure someone here can provide a link for locating someone in your area.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Just another vote that the trainer stinks. Cookieface has my advice that I would definitely suggest a full panel and over all physical to determine if he has an underlying medical issues that could be contributing to this. It could be something as simple as pain (hip/joint problems especially in an older dog) to hormonal or neurological issues. Cognitive Dysfunction Syndrome comes to mind with his age, but given his previous history it's hard to say. Has he show any other signs of being disoriented or aging signs?


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## MandyPandy (Mar 23, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Just another vote that the trainer stinks. Cookieface has my advice that I would definitely suggest a full panel and over all physical to determine if he has an underlying medical issues that could be contributing to this. It could be something as simple as pain (hip/joint problems especially in an older dog) to hormonal or neurological issues. Cognitive Dysfunction Syndrome comes to mind with his age, but given his previous history it's hard to say. Has he show any other signs of being disoriented or aging signs?


The vet asked a lot of questions for what she called canine cognitive disorder, and it didn't seem to apply. She said he didn't respond with any pain or felt "crunchy" when she examined his hips or joints. I don't know what the blood work was, specifically. I will check into that this week. The vet is not a certified behaviorist. She said the nearest one is about 2 hours away...she shadowed him during her studies or something. I live in an area where most people would just use their hunting rifles.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

MandyPandy said:


> The vet asked a lot of questions for what she called canine cognitive disorder, and it didn't seem to apply. She said he didn't respond with any pain or felt "crunchy" when she examined his hips or joints. I don't know what the blood work was, specifically. I will check into that this week. The vet is not a certified behaviorist. She said the nearest one is about 2 hours away...she shadowed him during her studies or something. I live in an area where most people would just use their hunting rifles.


I'd get a blood draw done, and send it off to Dr. Jean Dodds hemopet lab. It's probably the best in the country for testing for thyroid disease.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Did the vet check his eyes out at all? At his age, I'd also be wondering about his eyesight, if he's developing cataracts and losing his sight, that could make him extra sensitive and reactive regarding kids and dogs running past him.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

I was wondering about his eyesight too, maybe even his hearing. If he's having issues seeing, this can be a major cause of his freaking out.

Another vote here towards everything that's being said about dominance and rank. It's false, has been disproven for many years, and won't help your dog.

And this:


> That said, if you do choose euthanasia, I would not condemn you. Only you can consider this situation, weigh your options, and decide whether it's safe to have the dog around your son. I would keep them separated, though, with baby gates or other barriers.


I agree with. 
Do what you feel is right for him and your family. Just, if worse comes to worse, I wouldn't rehome him. At this age after you've had him this long -and if he is a real danger- it would be so hard, if not impossible, for him to adjust.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Pls take him out of his crate-- it must feel like torture to him, (you said he has crate anxiety right)-- that is no kind of life to live.... Just make the choices you need, keep dogs seperated, try to be as humane and neutral to the dog, and do what you need to do ( I would not re home him either at this age, unless, like we do in SF we have a Senior dog rescue that ONLY takes in older dogs and specializes in them, providing them with a kind and peaceful golden years)....


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I have never met a Vet that lived in an area where most owners would PTS a dog with their hunting rifles (rural) that would not put this type of problem dog at 10 or 11 yrs of age PTS. I would be going to a different Vet to get dog PTSed. I'm sure there are some, I've just not met any myself. 

A behaviourist having success with a dog this age, well chances are between slim and none. Below is a heavu duty cage if needed.

http://www.petedge.com/catalog/product.jsp?productId=45512


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## MandyPandy (Mar 23, 2013)

wvasko said:


> I have never met a Vet that lived in an area where most owners would PTS a dog with their hunting rifles (rural) that would not put this type of problem dog at 10 or 11 yrs of age PTS.


I was surprised, too. I live in a traditionally rural and farm-based area with a growing population of people moving in from more urban areas. 

I've gotten a lot of ideas and suggestions. I appreciate all of them. I have took Louie out of his crate within an hour of my first post. His eyes were checked, and they were fine. He seems to hear fine, but I can't be sure. 

Re-homing is not something we are considering. We don't feel it's a safe, responsible choice for this dog in this situation.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

MandyPandy said:


> I was surprised, too. I live in a traditionally rural and farm-based area with a growing population of people moving in from more urban areas.
> 
> I've gotten a lot of ideas and suggestions. I appreciate all of them. I have took Louie out of his crate within an hour of my first post. His eyes were checked, and they were fine. He seems to hear fine, but I can't be sure.
> 
> Re-homing is not something we are considering. We don't feel it's a safe, responsible choice for this dog in this situation.


Ok great, stay safe, hang in there keep us updated...


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

10 or 11 years old? You'd be lucky to rehab a dog like that.
He's old, probably isn't all there in his head anymore. You're best bet would be just to muzzle him when he's around the children.

Dominance is a load of baloney when it comes to a dog like this. And hell I doubt making positive associations would help much if the dog isn't all there.
He's old, accept he's not in his prime anymore and make his last few years comfortable. Being honest here, he's old, on average he's got maybe 1 or 2 years. Make him comfortable.
I recall a friend's old dog started doing similar things once he started to lose his vision. He was the perfect dog, but once he lost his vision he even growled at the man who raised him from a pup. It's the sad things that happen when your dog gets old.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm going to be the bad guy. If you have a child and you don't trust this dog, get rid of him. I'm in Texas, and Vets don't like it, but it's fairly easy to euthanize a dog, here. I applaud you for trying, but it sounds like all the effort and emotion that you're putting into this dog is now getting counterproductive for you.


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## georgiapeach (Mar 17, 2012)

To the OP, could you live with yourself if this dog attacked and maimed/killed your child? Family first...


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

if the dog is truly aggressive or getting so, re home the dog to some one who is prepared to deal with it. safety first. the risk to your child, as it appears that the aggression is getting worse not better, cannot be tolerated. it only takes a second to do un reversable damage to your child.

I feel bad advising such a course of action but on the other hand, a similar situation was presented to me a while ago and I advised re homing the dog to an environment more suited to his needs. the advice was disregarded since they had raised the dog from a pup I heard the "he would never attack our child" speech and didn't argue. I should have. the dog attacked the child not long after my conversation with them and severely bit her when she tripped beside him not even contacting the dog but the sudden movement set the dog off. I kick myself in the backside for not being more adamant about my advice. it was an avoidable incident.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

sharpei said:


> if the dog is truly aggressive or getting so, re home the dog to some one who is prepared to deal with it. safety first. the risk to your child, as it appears that the aggression is getting worse not better, cannot be tolerated. it only takes a second to do un reversable damage to your child.


This dog has a history of aggression, and rehoming it is, at a minimum, irresponsible with the potential of being dangerous.

IMO, the only options are to manage the dog and its behavior or PTS. 

I hope the OP is able to come up with a solution that benefits both she and the dog.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Old dogs can learn stuff. 

I'm not saying it would be wrong to euthanize, but don't make the decision on whether you want to attempt training based on the dog's age.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> I also took him to a dog trainer with many years of experience. She also feels that Louie can be rehabilitated. She thinks Louie's aggression is based on dominance, and she wants me to go back to square one with establishing rank. Her first steps are for Louie to be in the cage all the time, except for going outside, for about 3-7 days. We're on day 2, and I'm worried this dog will have a heart attack from panic.


Oh god. I'm not a professional (nowhere close) so take this with a grain of salt. But that plan sounds TERRIBLE.

If Louie's issues stem from fear then you are making it a million times worse by keeping him in constant panic all day. I would suggest looking into a behaviourist at least for a second opinion. I have a dog who is afraid on confinement and I can't even imagine the shaking mess of nerves I would come home to if I kept him crated for days on end. Of course my dog is not your dog so..... Really all I can say is be sure to keep him separated from your other dog and your children at all times while retraining. 

I also suggest thinking carefully about the method, how it works, why it works and decide if you're prepared to buy into it. Don't feel obligated to take your trainer's opinion because it comes from a professional. I am quite certain that another professional will give you another opinion and another game plan. But for a dog with confinement issues, I just can't imagine that being in a blind panic most of the day is actually helping him learn to be _less_ afraid. JMO.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

I know every dog ages differently and every dog is an individual but my dog is 10 and he learns new things every day. Age doesn't mean give up.

If I were you I would try a behaviorist and if things still weren't looking up, PTS is always an option to end things gently and permanently. For now, keep Louie separate from the dog and the baby. Baby gates or keeping Louie in a spare room is a good idea. No more crate. It could be making him overly anxious and be partially leading to the bites.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Oh god. I'm not a professional (nowhere close) so take this with a grain of salt. But that plan sounds TERRIBLE.


Yes that's a down dog's throat or up dog's butt type program. Usually used by the Marquis De Sade's dog trainer back in the day. Something for all 10 or 11 yr old dogs to look forward to.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

MonicaBH said:


> This dog has a history of aggression, and rehoming it is, at a minimum, irresponsible with the potential of being dangerous.
> 
> IMO, the only options are to manage the dog and its behavior or PTS.
> 
> I hope the OP is able to come up with a solution that benefits both she and the dog.


 How, may I ask, could re homing the dog to some one prepared to deal with an aggressive dog be irresponsible? If I was just advising to re home the dog to anyone willing to take him that would be irresponsible. trying to manage aggressiveness in any manner that exposes the child to any risk would be irresponsible. aka any exposure at any time to a dog that is showing increasing aggression to the child is just a tragedy waiting to happen.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

sharpei said:


> How, may I ask, could re homing the dog to some one prepared to deal with an aggressive dog be irresponsible? If I was just advising to re home the dog to anyone willing to take him that would be irresponsible. trying to manage aggressiveness in any manner that exposes the child to any risk would be irresponsible. aka any exposure at any time to a dog that is showing increasing aggression to the child is just a tragedy waiting to happen.


The dog is known to be aggressive, or at least to have aggressive tendencies. Should I start with the litigious society in which we live and then delve into the ethics of rehoming such a dog, even to someone "prepared" to take on an aggressive dog? Not to mention that any Joe Blow off the street could say they're prepared to take on this dog and end with disastrous results. 

Of course, I'm always a firm believer in personal responsibility with the pets I've taken on. Should any of my dogs ever reach a point that I can't manage their behavioral issues any further (after accessing a veterinary behaviorist), they will be humanely euthanized.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

He doesn't sound irredeemably aggressive. Apparently he had no human-aggressive tendencies before he started growling at the 2-year-old, right? And lots of dogs are not too fond of small noisy newly-mobile humans. So probably rehoming to someone with no kids or other dogs, or another dog who they're willing to keep separated or has a more compatible personality, could work out. Not that I'm saying it would be easy to find such a person, but if a childless friend/relative wants to take him, I don't think it would be a bad thing.

I think it's worth working on.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

I see your point. any attempts to re home would have to be taken with extreme caution, and research, back ground checks etc. 

I have an extreme sense of personal responsibility and awareness of my own capabilities, and I must say I tend to forget some people would be naive enough to think they are prepared for an aggressive dog when they are not or think it would be cool to have one just to have one. the sue happy society in which we live is ridiculous as no one accepts responsibilities for their own actions anymore but I wont go off on that rant. I am inclined to agree that (depending on a behaviorists opinion etc) it may indeed be best to have the animal humanely euthanized. 

I know that with a proper situation for this dogs condition it could live out the remainder of its years in a decent quality of life. finding the perfect situation for it unfortunately may well be nigh impossible.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Am I missing something? By the description, the dog is barely aggressive. He hasn't bitten anyone, he's just dog-aggressive (as many dogs are, including my first dog) and growled at a kid as a cranky old man. I mean, it's not like he's lunging at people and wanting to eat everybody. I have seen threads where the dog had an actual bite history with fewer recommendations to PTS. So, hmm?


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

I am not advocating euthanasia. I still feel a proper home is the best solution, but finding the proper home may be an extreme challenge for the reasons that were given. I was conceding to her points though, all are valid.


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Am I missing something? By the description, the dog is barely aggressive. He hasn't bitten anyone, he's just dog-aggressive (as many dogs are, including my first dog) and growled at a kid as a cranky old man. I mean, it's not like he's lunging at people and wanting to eat everybody. I have seen threads where the dog had an actual bite history with fewer recommendations to PTS. So, hmm?


He's known to have been fearful, which in and of itself can cause bites; the owners have been able to remove most fear-inducing stimuli by keeping the dog in the home and in a fenced yard.

He's dog aggressive and has gotten grumpy with a child, so much so that the owner is afraid. I certainly never suggested PTS as a first option, but as an option if managing the dog's behavior isn't something the OP can do.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

> if the dog is truly aggressive or getting so, re home the dog to some one who is prepared to deal with it. safety first. the risk to your child, as it appears that the aggression is getting worse not better, cannot be tolerated. it only takes a second to do un reversable damage to your child.


This dog is elderly, has a history of what sounds like anxiety and just overall fear, the dog is slowly becoming aggressive towards other dogs and people...
Most people would say don't rehome a normal dog at 10/11 because of how hard it would be to adjust. For this dog? I wouldn't count on his life being worth living if he had to go through this with his issues tagging along.
Frankly, rehoming would be stupid and irresponsible to the dog and the potential owner. And honestly, how easy is it to find someone to take on an elderly, aggressive dog? I'm thinkng not very.


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## sharpei (Mar 15, 2013)

HollowHeaven said:


> Frankly, rehoming would be stupid and irresponsible to the dog and the potential owner. And honestly, how easy is it to find someone to take on an elderly, aggressive dog? I'm thinkng not very.


I agree that it would not be an easy find, and have conceded to several of the points made but frankly, finding a proper home for a dog is neither irresponsible or stupid. re homing an elderly semi aggressive dog would be a challenge, and would take a rare sort of person to deal with it and be properly prepared for it. I darn well know that dogs can adapt to new situations in an elderly state, would I recomend it in most cases for an elderly dog no but his is a different situation. I don't think it is likely that a proper home will be found. But If it were my dog I would make the attempt to find a suitable match. lacking success I would probably wind up euthanizing the dog. but your can darn well bet your bottom dollar I will do whatever I can do to avoid the final solution if another suitable situation can be found that does not involve excessive risk.

everyone seems to be overlooking the part where the new owner is prepared and knows what they are doing. everyone just seems to assume that anyone that would take in a dog that shows aggression is an idiot and no one would be competent to provide this dog a peacefull retirement. my rescue peach had serious food aggression issues when we rescued her and I can now take food straight out of her dish while she is eating. I knew what I was getting into and was prepared and planned and worked with her. this dog may be too senior or senile to be "retrained" I dont know, and no one else here does either, we can just go on what we read in the posts. 

keeping the dog that is getting more aggressive in a situation where an accidental slip of a baby gate could lead to confrontation between the dog and child is far more irresponsible in my opinion.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

If it is still capable of learning new things then teach it to love a muzzle.
Learning to love the muzzle would do a few things:
1. You can still teach him things, so perhaps rehab isn't out the question.
2. He won't be able to seriously hurt anything with the muzzle on
3. He can live out his life with the muzzle happily and not stressed, and only having it off when you can supervise him and he's most likely alone.

Muzzle first, everything else should be second.


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## MandyPandy (Mar 23, 2013)

I am the OP. I've been checking this thread often since I posted, and I'm finding all the different views and opinions very helpful.

In regards to re-homing, we spent many months trying to find someone to take Lou after the last time he attacked our other dog. No one that we know is willing to take him. Dog fighting is common where I live, and I don't want to put an ad in the paper. Also, animal control, the local humane society, and the vet have all talked me out of re-homing him because of his history and our potential liability. If someone we know understands the risk, is willing to take the risk, and would provide a good home, we would love that. We keep an eye out for such a person, but we aren't keeping our hopes up.

Also, I do realize that Louie is barely aggressive compared to many dogs. I don't know if he has a bite history with humans...he hasn't bitten a person since living with us, though he has growled and lunged a few times. He is strong, though, and goes for the face each time he attacks the other dog. It could only take one bite to cause serious damage to my toddler, or the new baby we are expecting soon. In my eyes, his aggression is escalating and I'm not convinced that re-training will do any good.

I have another appointment with the vet today to discuss the results of Louie's blood work and hear more specifically what her plan is in regards to medication and muzzling. For now, Louie is kept separate from kids and is closely supervised around our other dog, and we're very careful in our dealings with him, but it's all been a walking-on-eggshells feeling that is not a long-term solution.

I edited this post to add a few other thoughts. Deep down, I think that Louie may have a chance at rehabilitation with a stronger, more experienced dog owner than I am. I fully admit that we were too young and too naive to fully understand what we were getting into when we accepted Louie into our home. I need to seriously think about what I can handle doing. One mistake on my part can have horrible consequences for my son. 

I'll let everyone know soon what we decide to do. Thank you again for your advice, feedback, and support.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Thank you for the update. It sounds as though you're doing all you can for Louie. if he cannot be rehomed or rehabilitated, no one (here) will think poorly of you. You're in a difficult situation, doing everything you can for your family and Louie. I'm not sure I would do as well in your position.


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## MandyPandy (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm the OP, posting another update for those who may be following this thread. Again, thank you for all of your feedback.

The vet confirmed that Louie is in good health. His thyroid was checked, and is fine. Canine cognitive disorder is a possibility, and he has slight arthritis. Her recommendations include behavior modification training, a basket muzzle, and medications (fluoxetine and trazodone).

The vet wants us to use the muzzle when kids are around or when the dogs will be together unsupervised. So, most of the time. Is this a feasible, long-term solution for a dog? I've done a lot of online research about rehabilitating aggressive dogs, but I've rarely seen posts by anyone who has used a basket muzzle in this way. Does anyone have experience with this? 

Her recommendations seem reasonable, but I'm wondering if there are other factors or considerations that I'm just not thinking of right now?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, racing Greyhounds are kept in basket muzzles most of the time, so it is do-able. Whether it works for your guy, I don't know, but it sounds like a good thing to try .


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

I am so glad there is now a game plan.  I have just been following the thread ...............


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## Tamara T (Mar 19, 2014)

I had an Old English bulldog that I got as an eight week old pup. She grew to be very strong and weighed 65 lbs. She could pull me off my feet and literally drag me. I hadn’t expected her to grow so big for her breed, and the relatively small size of her mother. I took her to all the puppy classes, obedience classes, play dates, doggy daycare, beginner agility etc. At least 3 times per week we went to obedience classes, as I really enjoyed it too. Tragically she was aggressive and tried to attack any dog smaller than her. She also showed severe aggression towards children. Thankfully she never managed to seriously hurt anyone/anything. I admit I was also part of the problem, as I have a difficult time being “tough” and just want to give and give and give love.
I took her to the vet for many tests, and we tried various medications, however there was no change.

As far as keeping her away from children, we share a backyard fence with three neighbors; two of our neighbors have young children. Of course these children play in their own backyard, and any time they were outside, something in Lucy’s brain would snap and she’d charge the 5 foot tall, strong wooden fence. I was always outside whenever she was outside. She wouldn’t have broken through the fence, but the children were seriously frightened by her (I don’t blame them) and of course their parents were concerned about what could happen. When I tried to restrain her from this behavior, she would try and bite me.

We also have children from the neighborhood ringing the front door for fund-raising or girl guides etc. Lucy would become uncontrollable at the sight of them, almost breaking through the front living room window. I could hardly pull her into the secure kitchen, she was so very strong.

Progressively, I was driving further and further outside of the city to remote places for our walks, where there were no dogs or people. However, it could never be guaranteed that we wouldn’t come across small dogs or young children. I was a nervous wreck, always keeping an eye out and looking for an escape route. At times there was no escape route, and at least 5 times Lucy pulled me right off my feet and dragged me, chasing after the dog or child. I even broke my wrist from a fall, requiring several pins and 8 months of physiotherapy. 

I DID indeed go to many, many dog trainers, one on one training and group training for months on end. I went to reactive dog group classes for several months, 3 times per week. I definitely did NOT spare any expense. I was gladly spending over $1200 per month for her training, however no progress was made.

My only option in order to keep her would have been to purchase some property out in the country, have it securely fenced, and never have friends over with children or dogs. This was NOT an option as I have a terrific relationship with my husband, and he wasn’t about to move into the country for a dog. We have lived in our current home for over 20 years, and we love our home and our dear neighbors. Moving was not an option.

I hope you can see that I really did everything I could. I have MANY close friends who are dog lovers/owners and I had the FULL support of all of them.
I also worked with a woman, (let’s call her Barbara – for privacy sake) who is the Department Head of Behavior at the local Humane Society. Her qualifications include CPDT-KSA, Tellington TTouch Level 2 KPA CTP TAGteach CBCC-KA and IAABC. After long, intensive training and assessment, Barbara is the one who suggested that I put Lucy down – that there was no hope for rehabilitation. Barbara also assists in helping the local police assess dogs that have already bitten someone, and the dog is now in “custody”. SHE is the one who assesses whether they can be rehabilitated or be put to sleep. If the SPCA and local police trust her judgement, why shouldn’t I? It was either wait till she hurt a dog or child, and deal with the guilt and consequences of that, or deal with the pain and loss now before she hurt anyone. So I made the extremely difficult decision to have her put down. She was 18 months old. This happened on May 8, 2013. 

I am still grieving, but, with hours and hours of counselling, I am slowly healing.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

There is ALWAYS hope for rehabilitating a dog.. always, always, always. 
Especially a puppy. 

Sometimes I think people take the "training" classes at petsmart and assume that means their dog has completed the run of the mill obedience and is perfectly trained - nono, those classes are entirely based on socialisation and the trainers working the classes are your run of the mill, every day, PEOPLE with no background in dog behavior and educated training... When I asked about their job requirements, they told me I had to be older than 18 (I'm 23). That's it.


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## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

OP- this is just my two cents and there are alot of people who don't agree with me here. 

I think there are some dogs that just don't belong in a home with toddlers. 

Notice I didn't say, "kids." Kids and toddlers are not the same thing- toddlers are like cavemen lol 

I have a toddler and I'll be the first to say that if I saw a lip lift or a hard stare coming from one of my dogs to my son, I'd rehome in a heart beat. Dogs that live with toddlers must have a sweet nature to them, because toddlers are fast, and often clumsey and rough with out meaning to be. 

My son is 22 months and I have a story I tell and have told on this board about a million times. The gist of it is that one second my son was right beside me, the next he was on top of my dogs who were wrestling over a bone in the adjacent room. 

It was justthatfast. 

Now, that could have very easily ended in tragedy. And I know it. And I have been vigilent since that time. 

But, it ended up in a tail wagging love fest on the floor, where everyone was playing and licking and giggling and having a blast. 

So, I say I'm very lucky, because all it took was a second. 

At some point, you have to rely on your dogs' temperament when you have a toddler. You have to trust that they're not going to bite if the kid trips or is too loud or comes too close. 

Is the dog going to wear a basket muzzle constantly for the rest of its life?


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

If you are talking about one of those metal basket muzzles like Greyhounds wear, they cannot bite but they can still cause damage to a person, especially a young one if they hit them on the face.

I think Tamara T did the best she could and quite agree with her having put the dog down. It is fine to say that "any" dog can be rehabilitated but when it comes to someone, especially a child, being hurt, I know what I would do. It is almost impossible for a dog to not ever come in contact with a child unless the dog is locked up in a secure pen at all times and what kind of a life is that?


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