# Too much protein?



## meggels (Mar 8, 2010)

My little girl Abbie has been on TOTW for several weeks now and she loves the food. 

But, I have a concern with her getting too much protein in a grain free food. In our puppy class the trainer who is pretty smart IMO and actually works with the dog nutrition guy I get my food from, stated that a high protein food can fuel puppies TOO much and just make their energy off the walls. I have noticed a difference in Abbie lately, like she seems more hyper and has a lot more energy to burn.

I was thinking of switching her back to another premium food that is not grain free and has a lower protein percentage. Right now she's rotated between all the TOTW formulas which are about in the low 30% ranges for protein. I'm thinking of putting her back on Premium Edge which tend to be in the mid 20% range.

Thoughts? She's a 7 month old beagle/heeler mix. 31 lbs. Probably won't get a whole lot bigger I'm guessing?

I know I've read that high protein diets are good for dogs that are in heavy work, which is not Abbie. She goes for a daily half hour walk, and plays for a few hours in the house with our boxer, but that's about it.


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## Jordan S (Nov 21, 2009)

meggels said:


> My little girl Abbie has been on TOTW for several weeks now and she loves the food.
> 
> But, I have a concern with her getting too much protein in a grain free food. In our puppy class the trainer who is pretty smart IMO and actually works with the dog nutrition guy I get my food from, stated that a high protein food can fuel puppies TOO much and just make their energy off the walls. I have noticed a difference in Abbie lately, like she seems more hyper and has a lot more energy to burn.
> 
> ...



Don't. I have a senior dog who eats Wellness Core(a 34% protein food) and does fine. High protein being dangerous is a myth.


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## parallelbarking (Feb 16, 2010)

I recently switched my girl from Orijen (42%) to Fromm's Four-Star (24%)because of the protein issue. My concern was that the high level of protein was exacerbating her reactivity issues. There have been studies that have indicated there may be a correlation. I have also heard it said that such a high level of protein is not recommended for a very drivey dog.

We switched about two weeks ago. I won't exaggerate and say she's been cured, but I do think there is a subtle difference in her behavior. I was able to do a few obedience drills with her with a group of teens standing on the other side of the street last night -- something that would have sent her over the edge just a few weeks ago. (She hates teenagers!) Of course, some of it may be the result of me working with her -- but it seems like food switch may have helped take off the "edge."

That said, my sister and parents use Orijen with their dogs and they seem to do well on it.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

There are lots of people on this forum who feed raw (80+% protein) to their dogs from the time they are weaned. Protein isn't as available as energy as carbs and fat would be, biochemically. So I'm not sure why it would make a dog hyper.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't know that I would call ~35% protien high protien.

Though getting up in the 40's I would.

The only caution I have heard is not too high protien for pups until their bones are developed. Doesn't make much sense to me though.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

TOTW doesn't have that much protein at all. A lot of puppy foods have 30+ percent as well. For example the puppy food that Nia was on with her breder, Royal Canin Mini 33 was 33% protein. TOTW only as around 32%. Compared to something really high protein like orijen 6 fish(the older formula) which is 44% is actually quite little. I would say there are absolutely no problems with it. Protein is not linked with amount of energy. TOTW is a great food and I would keep your dog on it if otherwise she seems fine. Stools, coat are all good?


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## DarkUncle (Feb 10, 2010)

Yes, there are way too many protein myths swirling around out there. There is no danger whatsoever, unless the dog has some kind of preexisting illness and must be placed on a prescription diet. 

High protein is great for puppies. It's the calcium/phospherous levels that can be a problem with bone and joint development. Not protein.

The extra hyperactivity is a new one. Hadn't heard that one yet. High protein is not going to cause hyperactivity.

Regards,
Chris


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## infiniti (Mar 19, 2010)

Considering that dogs are carnivores and meat is protein, I would think that a high protein diet would be optimal for dogs. I certainly am by no means a dog nutritionist (or a human one either for that matter!), but I do not think that a 30% protein diet would in any way be harmful to your dog, regardless of exercise levels. As someone said, carbs and fat are actually what the body primarily uses as fuel for energy, and as someone said, many dog lovers here feed their dogs raw food at an 80% protein level.

I am considering switching my dog from Chicken Soup for Dogs (24% Protein/14% Fat) to Canidae All Life Stages Grain Free (34% Protein/18% Fat) because she seems to like the taste better for one, and for another she's a little itchy; not real bad, but enough that I don't want her to be itchy so I am going to try grain free. She also gets protein in the form of leftover meats from our dinners and her treats. She also takes a bite out of a neighborhood cat or squirrel when she can catch them in the yard (just kidding! )


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

parallelbarking said:


> My concern was that the high level of protein was exacerbating her reactivity issues. There have been studies that have indicated there may be a correlation. I have also heard it said that such a high level of protein is not recommended for a very drivey dog.


Do you by chance have the studies? I have a pbgv who is very reactive, always has been. He is 4 yrs old now, been on Orijen adult for about a year now


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## parallelbarking (Feb 16, 2010)

InkedMarie said:


> Do you by chance have the studies? I have a pbgv who is very reactive, always has been. He is 4 yrs old now, been on Orijen adult for about a year now


I don't, but it was covered in "The Well-Adjusted Dog" by Dr. Nicholas Dodman of Tufts University (I Googled and was able to find the chapter online). It's far from conclusive, but I'm willing to change the diet if there's a chance it will help with the reactivity. 

One point he did make was that the high protein was not causing the issues, but exacerbating them in dogs that were already prone to them.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

parallelbarking said:


> I don't, but it was covered in "The Well-Adjusted Dog" by Dr. Nicholas Dodman of Tufts University (I Googled and was able to find the chapter online). It's far from conclusive, but I'm willing to change the diet if there's a chance it will help with the reactivity.
> 
> One point he did make was that the high protein was not causing the issues, but exacerbating them in dogs that were already prone to them.


thank you so much for responding, I jotted down his name and after work today, will do some research!


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## UniquityBelgians (Apr 15, 2010)

All that extra energy is because the dog is feeling good! I know plenty of people will switch back to a grain-filled food to curb the energy; Which to me is sad. We should be active with our dogs to curb hyperactivity, not feed them something that isn't doing them much good. When we eat processed junk food we don't feel energetic either -- but when we switch to a heathy diet, we get all of that energy back and it feels fantastic! I would want the same for my dog. I say go with the high protein food!
Also, it's a myth that it's bad for dogs; Dogs have the ability to metabolize excess protein. As primary carnivores, dogs are meant to eat high protein diets full of meats.
My dogs eat Innova EVO Red Meat, and are often fed raw meals as well. They have tons of energy and I just make sure to spend alot of time with them in the backyard, at the dog park, at the beach, and at whatever classes we decide to take. I love knowing they are healthy and full of life.


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## Gingergal (May 5, 2009)

I have been feeding my 1yr puppy orijen dry puppy food. I heard about the high protein and every 3 months I alternated it with dry puppy innova (don't see any difference when he is on innova).

I want my puppy to get the best dog food there is # and wanted a specialised puppy formula and orijen seems to be it. There isn't that much choice (high end).

So as he has never been on low end protein, I can't tell you if there is any difference energy wise. He is a puppy and quite energetic, but I do the Cesar Milan way - 1hr walking a day.

# Yes I know RAW is best, but wanted a well balanced formula predone dog food.


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## parallelbarking (Feb 16, 2010)

I don't want it to seem that i'm trashing high-protein foods, because they very well may be a great choice for some dogs. My own dog has been far less reactive, though, since switching. 

As an aside, my sister told me yesterday that she switched her dogs from Orijen because her mastiff was having incontinence issues, which cleared up once she switched her to a lower-protein diet. She was a longtime Orijen feeder, too.

So, in a nutshell, feed what's right for YOUR dog.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

meggels said:


> My little girl Abbie has been on TOTW for several weeks now and she loves the food.
> 
> But, I have a concern with her getting too much protein in a grain free food. In our puppy class the trainer who is pretty smart IMO and actually works with the dog nutrition guy I get my food from, stated that a high protein food can fuel puppies TOO much and just make their energy off the walls. I have noticed a difference in Abbie lately, like she seems more hyper and has a lot more energy to burn.
> 
> ...


My thought are that she's simply a 7 month old beagle/heeler mix  When Tag hit 6 months old I noticed he was less of a roly-poly baby, and more of a "kid" who wanted to be doin' stuff a lot. 
I agree when parallel said it doesn't necessarily CAUSE reactivity/excess energy/aggression, but it can contribute to problems if not nipped in the bud. If you're more comfortable switching her back to Premium Edge, I say go for it. You'll know in a few weeks if it has helped or not, and you can always switch back to TOTW. (Auz is much more sane and easy to live with on a lower protein diet. Problem was finding a food that had protein he could handle, along with higher fat to keep his coat from going to crap!)


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## HersheyPup (May 22, 2008)

So, what food did you finally decide on for Auz? Just Curious, because I have a GSD, too.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

Your dog might not NEED that high of protein, but, it won't be harmful in terms of growth. 

Here's a paragraph from a paper on feeding pups. The links is here: http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal feeding of large breed puppies.pdf

"Many nutrients have been studied to determine which components of these diets cause problems. Over 30 years ago a significant amount of data was published that established a connection between improper nutrition and a variety of skeletal abnormalities in Great Danes, including hypertrophic osteodystrophy, osteochondrosis dissecans and 'wobbler' syndrome. The experimental diets varied in protein, energy density, and minerals, and it was unclear which factor or combination thereof contributed to the developmental bone diseases observed in the initial studies (Hedhammar, et. al. 1974). The same group went on to investigate the individual dietary components and demonstrated that dietary protein level had no effect on the development of osteochondrosis (Nap, et. al, 1991). For some reason, dietary protein level continues to be incriminated by some owners, breeders, and veterinarians, despite the lack of supportive evidence."


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

HersheyPup said:


> So, what food did you finally decide on for Auz? Just Curious, because I have a GSD, too.


I switched him to diamond extreme athlete (32%P, 25%F) and then to TOTW  TOTW isn't that high in fat, but he does great on it, so rather than try to figure out WHY I just go with it!


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## lillie20 (Oct 17, 2008)

I feed my dog cooked meat and chicken. Added is kibble, Natural Balance. After having issues and switching from one food to another, this has been the best balance for my dog which has a sensitive stomach. I believe cooked or raw meat contains the same protein. Raw feeders always swear their dogs are the healthest, so high protein must not be bad.


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## JustTess (Mar 19, 2008)

We have two types at our house. One is a high protien (41%) Barking at the Moon and the other is Chicken Soup (24%). Our two dogs have different dietary needs.

The husky needs the high protien Barking, because his stomach doesn't seem to handle other processed dog foods well.

Our mix has the Chicken Soup because the high protien seemed to change her pH level ...causing bladder infections.

The high protien doesn't seem to affect the huskys energy level, though some days he skips eating while other days he eats 3 cups. I think he has a strange metabolism.


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## MountainDogz (Dec 19, 2007)

Justess: That is a husky for you..they are able to control their metabolism. My husky is the same way..some days he eats both breakfast and dinner then next only part of his dinner.


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

We feed Acana (rotation of Grasslands and Prairie Harvest) and have no problems! This food has worked out the best for us. Best of all, my picky dog LOVES it, has 2 small firm poops a day, great teeth, great skin/coat, I just love what the grainfree food have done for him. It's at about 34% protein which is just right for us. He's a 16lb Yorkie/maybe Silky.


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## sarahdvm (Apr 22, 2010)

Hi there guys...

I've done a significant amount of research in this area in the veterinary journals. There are a couple of short term studies out there on high protein diets which seem to indicate that they don't seem to over-load the liver and kidney with protein metabolism by products (i.e. BUN), but the fact of the matter is there are no good long term studies available to demonstrate the efficacy or safety of the diet. The vet's oath is to above all, do no harm, so we tend to be conservative in this area. I agree, there are a lot of grain based junk diets out there, but there are also some very very good diets with solid science behind them, not just marketing strategies. If you remember, protein is not used for energy by mammalian cells, but is used to rebuild cellular parts. Fats are the primary source of energy in canine metabolism. Cats are different...they have a whole different metabolic structure...

FYI - raw feeders may or may not be aware:

Nature’s Variety has initiated a voluntary recall of our Chicken Formula Raw Frozen Diet for dogs and cats with the “Best If Used By” date of 11/10/10 because these products may be contaminated with Salmonella.  The only products affected are limited to chicken medallions, patties, and chubs with a “Best If Used By” date of 11/10/10.This includes:


3 lb chicken medallions (UPC# 7 69949 60130 2) with a “Best If Used By” date of 11/10/10
6 lb chicken patties (UPC# 7 69949 60120 3) with a “Best If Used By” date of 11/10/10
2 lb chicken chubs (UPC# 7 69949 60121 0) with a “Best If Used By” date of 11/10/10

Be blessed!!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Healthy mind, healthy body. Or the other way around. Feeding less than optimal protein levels will weaken the body. Based on this incomplete study by IAMS I would prefer my dogs get this amount of protein.
http://www.iams.com/iams/pet-health/protein-in-dog-foods.jsp
Sassy is 16.5 years old and has several chronic diseases. More protein is definitely better for her. She would be down and out by now if she didn't get 150% of her minimum protein needs a day. Max is a nervous wreck and eating low carb, high protein has been terrific for his temperament. I have since discovered that wheat causes eye boogers, perhaps a sensitivity to wheat and possibly other grains made him more nervous as he just didn't feel 100%.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

sarahdvm said:


> Hi there guys...
> 
> I've done a significant amount of research in this area in the veterinary journals. There are a couple of short term studies out there on high protein diets which seem to indicate that they don't seem to over-load the liver and kidney with protein metabolism by products (i.e. BUN), but the fact of the matter is there are no good long term studies available to demonstrate the efficacy or safety of the diet. The vet's oath is to above all, do no harm, so we tend to be conservative in this area. * I agree, there are a lot of grain based junk diets out there, but there are also some very very good diets with solid science behind them, not just marketing strategies.* If you remember, protein is not used for energy by mammalian cells, but is used to rebuild cellular parts. Fats are the primary source of energy in canine metabolism. Cats are different...they have a whole different metabolic structure...
> 
> ...


This is (in my experience) very true. I don't think that all vets push science diet just because they sell it. I work with 2 vets with my insane amount of animals <G> and the conventional vet sells Science Diet. I've had dogs and cats in there. Every time I visit with a new pet, I am asked to fill out a form describing their daily activity, their living arrangements, and their diet. I don't feed science diet, never will, but never once have they pushed me to feed it. I even had a cat in there for urinary stones, and she suggested we may switch him to a prescription diet and told me to check out the pet store down the road, as they had several brands! Lucky me, what great vets I have  I *have* met some vets who have told me that any food except science diet, Iams, and Eukanuba is crap, and you're killing your pet if you don't feed "their" brand. The oath may say "do no harm"; unfortunately not all vets remember this. It's up to us as pet owners to search out the ones who DO remember...
We board a shepherd/husky (large, about 75-80 pounds) who just had her 20th birthday this month!!!!!!! She's been fed Dog Chow and Beneful her whole life. She also lives on a farm, and gets plenty of fresh air, exercise (at her own, old lady pace), and has a great life any dog would be thrilled to have.
My 9 year old papillon isn't the best bred dog out there, and has some health problems. Unfortunately, not even the best food on the market would make him as "healthy" as my other two dogs. Sad but true


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## sarahdvm (Apr 22, 2010)

@LazyG - thanks for the reply. Pet food companies with integrity are few and far between. Even less common is a pet food that is formulated by a veterinarian...most are formulated with a spreadsheet.  Rancidity is also an issue - you have to be careful about how long a food has sat on a shelf before you buy it, also consider the distribution center and how the food is shipped, as temperature control is a signficant factor. I have very few foods that I actually recommend to the pet parents that really care. Sorry about your papillion, but I am amazed at your twenty year old - WOW!! Some dogs defy science...kinda like those old men that drink and smoke, and still live to be 90. 

@Kathyy - you are right. This is a very incomplete study, and an even more incomplete article. I am a bit confused as to your comments as well....you prefer to feed an animal based protein diet or a 32% protein diet?

As to animal based protein being the main (or only) source of protein in the diet, I agree, 100%!! It goes beyond that as well, as we all know, all "animal based" proteins are not equal. Take, for example, the infamous "chicken by-product" vs. "chicken meal". Very, VERY different AAFCO definitions and VERY different qualities of protein. And I also agree - healthy senior pets need protein!!! Senior diets that restrict protein are not doing any dogs any favors.... As an aside, a sensivity to wheat gluten is more common in domesticated animals, and may very well account for the "eye boogers".


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I would like a minimum of 32% animal based protein. I actually end up counting grams protein per pound of dog though as she is fed home cooked food. NRC level is less than 1 gram per pound of dog, Sassy gets about double that but I cannot add more protein when she needs more calories so the protein percentage keeps going down the more she needs to eat. I don't count plant protein in Sassy's diet.


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## STPFAN (Sep 27, 2009)

briteday said:


> There are lots of people on this forum who feed raw (80+% protein) to their dogs from the time they are weaned. Protein isn't as available as energy as carbs and fat would be, biochemically. So I'm not sure why it would make a dog hyper.


Just to correct to you, most raw feeders give *80% meat* (not 80% protein). Raw meat consist of 70% water with the rest being protein, fats and natural enzymes umpresent in cooked kibble! That raw natural protein is highly diegestible as well!


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Depending on how I figure it raw fed Max gets about 40-50% protein. Take away the water and divide protein grams and that is what you get. By calories, more like 30% protein as fat is twice the calories per gram as protein or carbs.


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## parallelbarking (Feb 16, 2010)

I realize this thread is about protein and health, rather than behavior, but I found it interesting that I ran accross this tidbit from TOTW's FAQ on their own website:

_Can high protein affect my dog's behavior? 

Possibly. SOME dogs, but certainly not all dogs, develop aggressive behavior when they are eating a high protein diet. Lowering the protein content in their food may help reduce the aggressive behavior. This is a rare situation and most aggression disorders are behavioral or medical problems that need to be addressed with a veterinarian and a behavior specialist. Aggressive dogs are dangerous and their aggression should be treated at the first sign by a professional._

I think more people should be aware that this is a real possibility.


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## jboboxer (Jul 9, 2009)

Could it be that a small tiny poodle should not be on the same diet as a great dane? I would just imagine that depending on the breed as well as the activity that what might work with one dog might not be the best for another dog.

What I find interesting is that it's my understanding that dogs can have much higher intake of fat and they use fat for energy first, then carbs and protein isn't really the reason for energy. So I'm not sure where the correlation of high protein and energy even comes from

I've only tried these foods
Innova Evo
Acana
Orijen
Wellness Core
Fromm

The reason I bring this up is that I noticed my dog has always done better with wellness core ocean than other dog foods. Well if you compare Champion Pet Foods Acana Prairie Harvest the protein is 34% and the fat is 17% and wellness core ocean has the protein at 34%, which is the same, but the fat is at 14%.

Well I've noticed less of a hyperactive dog when she's on wellness compared to Acana, but the protein level is the same more or less, but the fat level is different. 

So maybe you can come to the conclusion it's fat, but then if you start looking at the ingredients, I see Acana has chamomile flowers, which I would assume would have an impact on the dogs behavior as it effects me.


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## sarahdvm (Apr 22, 2010)

Raw feeders and home-cooked diet enthusiastics need to be _incredibly_ careful in formulating diet. The current marketing craze has pet lovers focused on the protein levels, and while protein as building blocks for cells is important, it is also important to take all the of the rest of nutrients,vitamins and minerals into account. We as vets are seeing more and more malnutrition and salmonella gastroenteritis cases in our hospitals from well-meaning people trying to feed their dogs 'enough protein' in the raw form. While it is true that wild canines eat a raw diet and do well, the same cannot apply to canis domesticus - genetically adapted to scavenge scraps from their owner's table.

I have been researching diet recently, having to deal over and over again with malnutrition, etc., and came across this recently published article. If you feed raw meat diets, it is worth a read. While it is true the bulk of the pet foods out there sitting on shelves are full of artificial this and that, fillers and low quality ingredients, there are privately distributed diets that are formulated correctly by vets to help animals live long and healthy lives.

J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009 Apr 15;234(8):1041-8.

Diffuse osteopenia and myelopathy in a puppy fed a diet composed of an organic premix and raw ground beef.
Taylor MB, Geiger DA, Saker KE, Larson MM.


Comment in:

J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009 Oct 1;235(7):817; author reply 817. 
J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2009 Jun 15;234(12):1527; author reply 1527-8. 

Abstract
CASE DESCRIPTION: An 8-month-old Shetland Sheepdog was evaluated because of the sudden onset of signs of neck pain, collapse, and inability to rise. A cursory diet history indicated that the dog had been fed a raw meat-based diet. CLINICAL FINDINGS: Initial evaluation of the dog revealed small physical stature, thin body condition, and signs of cranial cervical myelopathy. Radiographically, diffuse osteopenia of all skeletal regions was identified; polyostotic deformities associated with fracture remodeling were observed in weight-bearing bones, along with an apparent floating dental arcade. Hypocalcemia and hypophosphatemia were detected via serum biochemical analyses. The dog's diet was imbalanced in macronutrients and macrominerals. TREATMENT AND OUTCOME: The dog received supportive care and treatment of medical complications; neurologic abnormalities improved rapidly without intervention. Dietary changes were implemented during hospitalization, and a long-term feeding regimen was established. Following discharge from the hospital, exercise restriction was continued at home. Serial follow-up evaluations, including quantitative bone density measurements, revealed that dietary changes were effective. After 7 months, the dog was clinically normal. CLINICAL RELEVANCE: In the dog of this report, vitamin D-dependent rickets type I and suspected nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism developed following intake of a nutritionally incomplete and unbalanced diet. The raw meat-based, home-prepared diet fed to the dog was not feed-trial tested for any life stage by the Association of American Feed Control Officials, and its gross nutrient imbalance induced severe metabolic, orthopedic, and neurologic abnormalities. Inadvertent malnutrition can be avoided through proper diet assessment and by matching nutrient profiles with patients' nutritional needs.

Hope this is helpful.


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## BRule (Apr 22, 2010)

For a good read, check this out!

http://www.orijen.ca/orijen/ORIJEN_White_Paper.pd


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## grehamjones (May 31, 2010)

Protein is a necessary staple in a dog's diet. Dogs are considered omnivores, meaning they require plant and animal matter for survival and optimal health. Protein is processed in the liver and any waste materials are filtered and excreted by the kidneys. High quality protein does not generate large amounts of waste that needs to be removed from the body, but poor quality protein which is difficult to digest does and thus puts stress on the kidneys.


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## dieterherzog (Sep 28, 2009)

I wonder is high energy is being confused with "reactivity" here. You can't expect to feed a high protein diet and have your dog be a couch potato. 

Has anyone who had problems with "high energy" from feeding high protein food tried exercising their dogs more? I think it would be an interesting discussion.


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