# Sar



## juliemule

Is anyone here into SAR or scentwork? I have a 15 month old malinois certified in trailing and (fingers crossed) will be certified in HRD this spring. Also have a 2 yr old dutchie just started on HRD. Working on some aggresion issues with her, and destruction lol. She was a kennel dog who is now learning house manners. Slowly but surely. What a handful!


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## oldhounddog

Hi juliemule , 
I have redbone coonhounds and have always been interested in SAR work. Did you do all sent training yourself? 
Could you describe training process used for your Work.

Best , oldhounddog


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## DELee36

We have done some search work with our Ranger ( bluetick coonhound). Being honest...he more trained us than we trained him. Good luck with the certs....

For oldhounddog...there is search and rescue training clubs all over the country. There are directories online that list alot of the SAR clubs.
IMO...the problem you will have with them is:
1. getting anyone to call you back. Some of these SAR groups are kind of closed door organizations. 
2. getting them to look past the fact that your dog is a Coonie. The SAR groups up by us seem to have this prejudice that Coonhounds cannot be trained to do anything "but chase cats and eat their own poop" ( as one SAR guy told me). The Coonies are geting a better reputation...but...it seems the SAR folks ( at least those by me) seem to think that if it is not a Lab, Shepard, or Border Collie is is not worth training. ( even though our Ranger used to out track and out work a friend of ours SAR labrador on a regular basis)

We have a friend with a Certified RedBone...she does nto work the dog enough, but when its skills were honed, she was a great SAR dog.


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## oldhounddog

DELee36 ,

>The SAR groups up by us seem to have this prejudice that Coonhounds cannot be trained to do anything "but chase cats and eat their own poop" ( as one SAR guy told me). The Coonies are geting a better reputation...but...it seems the SAR folks ( at least those by me) seem to think that if it is not a Lab, Shepard, or Border Collie is is not worth training.SAR dog.<

Thanks for the reply , this is exactly what I have found when trying to inquire about SAR work training in my area. I have several Redbone coonhounds and two of these have a very hot nose and can stay on scent across water and similar problem solving tasks.
The sent work for me has been hobby and fun to this point as I just love the hounds baying when in hot pursuit of game. When I have worked on just plain sent trail work for fun my dogs a very quiet and happy just to find something I have hidden to get a reward.

Best , oldhounddog


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## dantero

I don't personally do SAR, don't have the time to commit to it but maybe someday. But I have placed pups with SAR handlers. I do enjoy scent work and have done both detection style work and tracking with various dogs.


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## DELee36

oldhounddog said:


> Thanks for the reply , this is exactly what I have found when trying to inquire about SAR work training in my area. I have several Redbone coonhounds and two of these have a very hot nose and can stay on scent across water and similar problem solving tasks.
> The sent work for me has been hobby and fun to this point as I just love the hounds baying when in hot pursuit of game. When I have worked on just plain sent trail work for fun my dogs a very quiet and happy just to find something I have hidden to get a reward.
> 
> Best , oldhounddog


People continually under-estimate the Coonhounds. 
I might call your local DNR...they should have information for local search groups. I think Georgia DNR has a few Search dogs. One of your states down there even has a Bluetick Tracking dog. IMO, your best chance is going to be to find an individual who is willing to show you the ropes and teach you some stuff while out working their dog. They LOVE to show off their dogs...
You know use the whole "I would love to come out and watch and see how you work your dog" approach.
That is what we ended up doing with Ranger.


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## juliemule

Thanks for the replies. I have done most of the work myself. I too had a very hard time getting help from any groups in the beginning. I think its because there are alot of people who say "i want to get involved with SAR", only to find out they have no commitment to the amount of training and time and money that goes with it. It took me 6 months and training on my own, finally showing up at a meeting, for anyone to see that the dogs are good and I was serious.

The trailing, we began with run aways. Having a herding, high prey breed helps here. The helper must make a huge deal of playing with the dog! Then begin the command with the runaway, hide farther, begin out of sight hides, the dogs begin to use their noses if set up without being able to air scent. Increase terrain, surfaces, time, etc. pretty simple but time consuming.

HRD, getting the samples were the hardest part lol. I started by setting one up in a line of buckets, as soon as the pup showed interest reward. I began with food treats, then switched to toys and tugs. Using different samples- bone, blood, tissue, at different stages of decomp, and increased the difficulty of the hides over time. Giving the command to 'check', soons mean a find and reward. Greta now searches out of my sight, will sit and bark on a find until I return with the reward. She lives for working!

I did try a walker coonhound. She was an awesome scent dog-- for everything except humans!! LOL. She was so interested in animal scent, I never could get her out of it. That is what they are bred for, and to me it is much easier with a dog that is more interested in people (mals, dutchies, shepherds, bloodhounds.) It can be done, and no dog fits the breed description to a "T". I just can't have a dog searching for a missing child, and veer off on a rabbit trail. My ******* wanted to trail animals not people, so I homed her doing just that. She is the proud hunting partner of a 15yr old boy and his father. I think ts best to find what suits each dog, not the other way around. I also have a mal that has zero interest in tracking people. I will be happy to train with anyone who is interested, just let me know!


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## cshellenberger

DELee36 said:


> We have done some search work with our Ranger ( bluetick coonhound). Being honest...he more trained us than we trained him. Good luck with the certs....
> 
> For oldhounddog...there is search and rescue training clubs all over the country. There are directories online that list alot of the SAR clubs.
> IMO...the problem you will have with them is:
> 1. getting anyone to call you back. Some of these SAR groups are kind of closed door organizations.
> 2. getting them to look past the fact that your dog is a Coonie. The SAR groups up by us seem to have this prejudice that Coonhounds cannot be trained to do anything "but chase cats and eat their own poop" ( as one SAR guy told me). The Coonies are geting a better reputation...but...it seems the SAR folks ( at least those by me) seem to think that if it is not a Lab, Shepard, or Border Collie is is not worth training. ( even though our Ranger used to out track and out work a friend of ours SAR labrador on a regular basis)
> 
> We have a friend with a Certified RedBone...she does nto work the dog enough, but when its skills were honed, she was a great SAR dog.


Wow, the one in the NW Washington area has numerous breeds as well as a couple 'mutts' that work SAR, Bloods, blueticks, Dobes, GSD and a couple of larger doodles (and beagles of course). I've thought about it for Angel as she LOVES to use her nose, but her fear issues have me concerned.

oh, and I'm going to move this over to dog sports, I think it'll fit better there.


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## juliemule

I have seen many breeds do great work, and lots of mixes. All depends on the right dog for the job. Myself, I don't like labs. The hounds are awesome trackers but IMO, I like a dog who has good handler rapport and follows directions well. Though they also have to be able to make their own decisions and work on their own. Fear issues can really be a problem. So can aggression. I have a dutchie just started, and she is doing awesome with the work, but has dog and people issues, that I don't know we can work out of her. May switch her to narcotics. There is a great dobie that does tracking I have worked with, he LOVES his job!


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## Darkmoon

Sorry I just saw this!

I'm currently training a Pit for Air Scent SAR work. We currently have 3 trackers on the team, 2 GSDs (one is being trained for HRD) and one bloodhoune then my pup who is showing real great signs of being a nice Air Scent/Trailing dog.

Mals are known for being over the top, Dog aggressive, and destructive dogs so just keep working on socialization. Honestly though, Aggressive dogs should not be SAR dogs. DA dogs can be SAR dogs if you can train them enough to ignore other dogs. It's a process but it can work. HA dogs... well my views on HA dogs should be they should be put down, but they should not be working to find humans if they are HA. That's a recipe for disaster.


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## melgrj7

I've been doing SAR with my GSD for about 2 years now (training, haven't certified yet, will when we need another active dog I guess). We do trailing and have been doing some human remains detection, but its hard to get access to larger samples so . . .


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## juliemule

Wish you were closer I have way more cadaver samples than I will ever use! The largest is a whole knee and half of a femur.

The people aggressive dogs I work with are patrol dogs used for tracking and apprehension, NOT SAR. I have seen so many aggressive confident dogs worked in law enforcement, and sport work I sure don't think they should be put to sleep. Not fear aggression but strong dogs.

my certified malinois is very over the top, but very people friendly and loves children, always closely supervised! I have owned mals for about fourteen years, love the breed. Have my first Dutch shepherd but they are basically the same only striped.


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## melgrj7

I have blood, a bone and some tissue but all small samples Nash loves doing cadaver stuff way more than live find stuff, lol.


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## +two

I have been wanting to get into SAR work for awhile now and have been trying to do as much reading as possible. I think I understand the time commitment necessary but I am a little afraid to start due to the money. Everything I've heard/read says that it is very expensive. Can anyone explain to me what the money goes to and how much it typically costs (per year or ?). 

Ozzie is an awesome air scenter, but he is fearful. So for now, we just have fun doing hides in the park and having him 'find' things around the house and yard. If (when) I get another dog, I will be looking for a compatible SAR dog. Are there two camps in SAR work? It seems like its 'hounds' or 'Shepherds and the like'. Of course there are variations (one famous Golden comes to mind) but for the most part, will people try to persuade me to go one route or the other?


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## juliemule

Any dog type can do SAR. Depends on what you prefer, like I think herders are easier to train. Just my preference. Then depending on what you want to pursue, tracking air scent, hrd, disaster, decides what type of dog to look for.

Expense wise you are looking at the price and upkeep of the dog, transport for training, seminars and certification costs, travel costs, equipment, missed work , kennels, the list can add up. Most of it is like any hobby, you can spend a fortune fast, but there are alot of affordable ways to go about it. It is the most rewarding thing I have done.


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## Selah Cowgirl

A littlel ate, but Ithought I would join in. My three year old griff and I are about 4 months into our SAR work. Our team consists of two pointing labs who are air scent, one is in HRD training. Three labs in trailing/tracking training, a springer and aussie in HRD. Three GSD pups in training, soon to be four. We have other dogs who I have not met yet, an air scent doberman.

I was sort of lucky to be in our SAR academy first, then joined the k-9 team, my advice is to call the sheriff department and get a hold of the SAR coordinator and the dog team from there. 

Luke and I are having a bit of trouble with the focus, so we are a bit behind where u


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## juliemule

Wow that's a large team! What area are you located in?


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## Selah Cowgirl

Sorry for my mistakes, new tablet and all.

My last bit is supposed to say a bit behind where I feel we are supposed to be, but my trainers think we are doing well.

We are in the central part of washington state. How is your training going?


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## juliemule

Hear there are some great resources and teams up north. Keep working he will get there.

Greta is certified through awda wilderness, and USAR disaster. The dutchie is now in Illinois working, and I took on another project dog, she is a 9 month old Malinois pup. She had severe dog aggression, we have worked on that for two months, and just passed her AKC cgc last night. I started her on hrd, though I need a live find disaster dog, she wouldn't be trustworthy with her past aggression. In three weeks we have odor recognition, a nice range, and a sit alert. She has been amazing! She does fringe alert, so we will work on that. 

It's hard to take it slow to get the correct foundation, since she has excelled in this. Her tracking is also going great.
It sounds like you have an awesome team to work with. That is something that is lacking here. Though I do have the task force to work with occasionally, our training has been with the police departments and random people I can enlist lol.


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## Selah Cowgirl

That is fantastic about the working dogs and congrats on your CGC Luke needs to pass that soon as well. The only test I am worried about is the strange dog part. How did you work through the DA issues to pass?


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## juliemule

Lots of redirecting. Initially she couldn't be around a dog at all. At training, after lots of expending energy, we would walk past the canines in the vehicles. As soon as she would focus on me with "look", I rewarded with food. That got old fast, so I moved to the tug. When we got to the point she would jump on the tailgate of a pickup with extremely dog aggressive dogs in a crate trying to eat her, she would sit, focus with them inches away, we moved onto the dogs being leashed.
I added a firm "NO!" here when she would react. Back to focus, reward, then worked figure 8s with many dogs, both reactive and not. She is now at the point she can be off lead and focus, even when another offlead dog is present. She will move away if approached and instantly looks to me for the tug.

I don't allow greeting dogs on lead, since mine are working dogs there is no need to play when out training or at pet stores. They do get to socialize at home. 

I have a litter of pups, now 6 weeks old. Her introduction was slow, st first she wanted to eat them. She is now off lead, with all 9 fireballs biting her legs ems totally mailing her. She will jump away. She gave a correction to one yesterday for jumping up biting her tongue. Since using the "no" correction, she instantly looked to me like "uh-oh!" I responded with good dog, since that was no aggression, but a correction. She trotted off tail wagging as if she had really done something special lol.


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## Selah Cowgirl

Wow, great work! Luke does well on leash with a focus command, but I have yet to test him off leash. How did you convince people to allow you to work through these issues using their dogs?

I think the main issue I am having with Luke is focusing after a subject find ( we are not yet to a refind\alert) and having the all important recall, he gets distracted after critters if the are prevelant. He likes harder problems with a delay or unknown hiding spot. We are introducing a search game using two pieces of clothing where he has to find the hidden one with a scent article. I hope to introduce a refind and alert with this game, not sure if it is a good time to or not.

Have you heard of any other wirehaired pointing griffons in SAR work? I would like to get a pup and start with a clean slate so to speak, and I think the griff is the breed for me, but I would like to find a breeder with a history of SAR dogs.

What kind of pups do you have right now?


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## juliemule

The other dogs are amostly LE k9s so they don't mind.

If you are doing live find, air scent, the easiest way for me, is to do simple run aways, hide behind a tree or something easy. Have the dog run right to the victim, praise from the victim, recall, you.praise, back to the victim. Then slowly phase out the victim praising. 

I dont use the refind, in disaster, the dog must stay with the source, and bark an alert. For distractions and critters, its immediately game over. This may not be so easy for hunting dogs though. The reward for work must far outweigh any other benefit he would get for chasing prey. I have not seen other griffons working, but I'm sure they do well. I have malinois puppies.


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## meepitsmeagan

In the near future, I am looking to either get an Australian Cattle Dog or Border Collie and have been very interested in getting into SAR with said dog. Though I am currently in CO, I will be moving back to Michigan in October and I cannot seem to find a K9 team anywhere close to where I will be living. My In-Laws are involved with human SAR, so I have talked with my MIL and she says when they need dogs, they come from the other side of the state and are extremely serious and usually don't really welcome newbies.

I've looked into just working with the dog on my own and asking my friends to help me by hiding out and such, but do you know of any resources near the Kalamazoo area?

Also, how young do you usually start the dogs?

Thanks, MIM


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## Darkmoon

meepitsmeagan said:


> In the near future, I am looking to either get an Australian Cattle Dog or Border Collie and have been very interested in getting into SAR with said dog. Though I am currently in CO, I will be moving back to Michigan in October and I cannot seem to find a K9 team anywhere close to where I will be living. My In-Laws are involved with human SAR, so I have talked with my MIL and she says when they need dogs, they come from the other side of the state and are extremely serious and usually don't really welcome newbies.
> 
> I've looked into just working with the dog on my own and asking my friends to help me by hiding out and such, but do you know of any resources near the Kalamazoo area?
> 
> Also, how young do you usually start the dogs?
> 
> Thanks, MIM


Hello!
Kalamazoo Michigan you say? Well I don't think Kalamazoo has a SAR team per say. There's the Southwest Michigan Emergency Response Team (SMERT) out of Battle Creek which has a K9 unit and then there's Kent County's (Grand Rapids) SAR team. I'm on the SMERT K9 unit in charge of K9 training. We welcome newbies and encourage new people to come out. We are currently rebuilding our team (the recession hit us hard) so we'd LOVE people who want to get out and train and work. Honestly I'm not too fond of most of the k9 teams in Michigan. K-9 One allows their dogs out on missions way too early and Michigan SAR wants a LOT out of you before you even can join their team. Even then you can't handle a dog for the first few years your on the team.

It's never too young to start a dog. The younger the better. I don't like starting dogs any older then 3 because it does take about 2 years before they are mission ready. I started Peanut at about 5 months old. Feel free to ask any question you have


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## juliemule

Is there a sweet blonde lady on your team with a terv? I think she is near the Indiana border.


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## meepitsmeagan

Oh my goodness! So exciting! Like I mentioned, I don't have the dog that I want to get into SAR with yet, however, the sooner I can begin learning and watching others the better. Late September/Early October is when I will be heading back. I would love to get together for lunch or something to chat about getting started and what I need to do to prepare so that when I do get my pup (or rescue) I can start it off right away.

How exactly does the team work? Do you have like monthly meetings, training sessions, all that good stuff or is it mostly independent until you get a call?


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## Darkmoon

meepitsmeagan said:


> Oh my goodness! So exciting! Like I mentioned, I don't have the dog that I want to get into SAR with yet, however, the sooner I can begin learning and watching others the better. Late September/Early October is when I will be heading back. I would love to get together for lunch or something to chat about getting started and what I need to do to prepare so that when I do get my pup (or rescue) I can start it off right away.
> 
> How exactly does the team work? Do you have like monthly meetings, training sessions, all that good stuff or is it mostly independent until you get a call?


I know small world lol. 
Our teams do monthly meetings (First Tuesdays of the month) and then us dog teams do weekly training (normally in the AM right now). We do bi-monthly full team exercises and a lot of community involvement activities (We go out to events and offer first aid). 

You don't need a dog to start out. Right now most of us are rookies, so most of us are doing the same thing to get ourselves prepared. The only requirement we have straight off the bat is you have to be a Ham Radio Operator with the FCC. It's a lot simpler to get that then it seems. We run a class every few months called "Ham in a Day" where you can earn it in one 8 hour day OR you can study on your own and find a local Ham club that will also give you the test. I do recommend you get your First Aid/CPR certification and your K9 First Aid Certification. Also if you can get your SARTECH II through NASAR http://www.nasar.org/page/21/Course-and-Certification-Schedule (I just noticed you can take your SARTECH III online so I know what I'll be doing tonight). 

We are called out through the Police Department so pretty much we train, have fun, and learn until we get that phone call where we are paged out to where ever they need us. None of our dogs are mission ready yet, but 2 of them (My Pit and our Bloodhound) is pretty close to being able to go out here by the end of Summer. It's a lot of fun and I've found not too taxing for time requirements. Some Teams require one evening a week plus one full weekend, and every Sunday as well. It's like .


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## meepitsmeagan

That is just awesome. Yeah, the time doesn't seem to be overwhelming at all and it seems like it is a lot more chill than some that I have heard about. I have my First Aid/CPR, but I probably need to get it renewed... I will need the K9 though. What exactly is Ham radio?

I'm super excited!!! September, get here NOW! Haha.


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## Selah Cowgirl

I thought I would give a bit of an update with Luke and I. We switched to a backchaining possess for the refind and trained indicator. It is working out really well at the moment. Our trained indicator is going to be a tug on a bringsel which he does nearly 80% of the time right now when coming to me from the subject. He has yet to refuse a refind or get seriously distracted by something while we are working the refind.

What commands do you use for your dogs?

Our launch command is "Luke Search" 
Our indicator alert is "bingsel"
Refind is "show me" 
"Luke Search" is prefaced with "Luke Ready"
"Lets go" is to get him out of an area that I don't want him in.
"Leave it" 
"Check it out" is going down a side path or checking brush 
I have started to say "go left and go right" on walks and he is starting to pick up on it.
"whoa" is stop right now and wait for me to release you.


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