# Crate training - when did it get so popular?



## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi all,

During my life my family had 4 dogs. They were all inside-dogs and all thoroughly spoiled. We had never even heard of crate training but they all turned out ok without it.

Now that I'm all grown up and it's my turn to own/train a dog, the more I look for information on training, the more I see about crate training.

I guess I'm wondering: is it so much more effective? When did it get so popular? Do you all use it? 

Sorry if this has been asked before, I did a search but all I got was a whole lot of threads with nondescript titles like 'crate training question' etc, and I didn't want to have to read them all!

Cheers,

Luce


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

About 30 years ago I was introduced to my "first" crate training information. I gave it a try and have never looked back. The dog I first used it on was a Husky/Shepherd mix named Max. 

I never had anything chewed inappropriately when I was not home. My dog never ingested anything he should not ingest. It helped with Potty training... honestly never had a dog potty train faster. 

I do not abuse a crate (that is the big argument against). Abuse means putting the dog in there all the time. Atka is crated when I am at work and used to be at night as well when she was younger. Now it is just when I leave the house (for work etc.). At night she is confined to a small area. 

I have cats and I want the dogs and cats kept safely separated when I am not home. The crate helps with that too. 

Like any tool, they are great if used correctly. 

I suppose if you are home all day and never have to leave the dog alone you can go w/o a crate. We did when I was a kid. Thing is we also had things chewed up and mistakes in the house and other issues that a crate simply gives no opportunity for. 

Now I am showing/trialing and you must have a crate for that.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

PS: do not be surprised if this thread turns into the "Great Crate War..."


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> PS: do not be surprised if this thread turns into the "Great Crate War..."


haha!


I don't use a crate, and we never did when I was a kid either. When I adopted Harlie years ago a friend gave me a crate and I had no idea why  My dogs don't chew or destroy anything, so I don't know. 

My neighbor crates their boxer and he's told me that she sometimes spends 12+ hours in her crate, as if it's a good thing. She's like 4 and I thought crating was more of a puppy thing with independence being earned/gained with time. Again, I don't know. Just voicing in as one of the minorities who don't use them.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

For me, 1991. That was the year we got our first puppy to raise for the dog guide school. Like many dog owners, I thought I knew a lot about dogs. I also recognized that the ways I learned in the 50's needed to change. The crate not only solved some of the past problems, it also was essential for many of the new ones having a Lab puppy brought. 

Our daughter grew up using crates, but married into a not crate using family. I was there for a visit and we left their new little terrier mix shut in the bathroom. He had resisted his crate and fouled it. When we got back, the bathroom was shambles.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

"So much more effective" than what?

If a crate-trained dog is in its crate while you are not present to supervise it, then you know for a fact it isn't going to hurt itself, mess with/destroy your belongings, or go to the bathroom on your rug.

Is it so much more effective than just walking out the door and praying none of these things happen? Yes.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I think it was always a very common training method, in the past, to have a penned off "safe" area for a restless puppy that was kept indoors, and not yet reliably house trained when the owners were not at home.

About the mid 90s I noticed crate training was really becoming the norm.

I still like pens better, but then I like smaller dogs for which that is easier.

Some BIG differences in ownership and lifestyle, though, since 30 years ago.

A HUGE number of homes used to have a family member that was home either most or part of the day. 

That seems to be rare today.

Just something that I am currently reflecting on . . . when my husband and I started our life together we never would have considered a puppy while both of us worked. Because we are fond of keeping dogs, we took in adult dogs.

I might be wrong, but I think crate training has become more used as more and more people are raising puppies while they are away a great deal of the day.

SOB


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm pro-crating, but have not used it myself. Smalls was the last puppy I had (and she's a little over 3 now) and we could not train her to be safely in her crate. There was no way to even convince her to get NEAR the thing, and the one time we worked her up to getting into it she ripped her paw pad off and broke a few nails in the 10 seconds she was in there. So if she ever had to be left alone, she was left in a puppy proofed kitchen (including locked cabinets) and it was essentially a considerably larger crate. The rest of our dogs are adults and have never chewed any thing, and there is NOTHING left out for them to chew. 

The biggest positive to crate training to me is the safety of the dog. Sure, they might just destroy something you preferred not to be destroyed, but they also might harm themselves doing it.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Additionally, crate training has applications beyond just housebreaking. Dog is safe in a car in a crate. Safe at the vet's. Safe at trials/dog shows. Safe to travel with by plane, train, automobile. Even if the goal is being able to leave a young dog free in the house while you're gone, in my opinion a dog should be comfortable in a crate if he needs to be. It's a life skill.

Edit: My parents didn't use a crate for their cocker/poodle. This would have been late 80's/early 90's. I don't think it was the norm, although there were a few dogs in our neighborhood that were crated (neighbor's hunting dogs and friend's show dog).


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Crates have also come VASTLY down in price just from the early 80s. Until then, crates available were made of WOOD, or metal, and were heavy, expensive, and did I mention, HEAVY?


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

FilleBelle said:


> "So much more effective" than what?
> 
> If a crate-trained dog is in its crate while you are not present to supervise it, then you know for a fact it isn't going to hurt itself, mess with/destroy your belongings, or go to the bathroom on your rug.
> 
> Is it so much more effective than just walking out the door and praying none of these things happen? Yes.


I pretty much agree with this 

Also, I'd like to add that I'm well aware that a lot of older people grew up or spend the majority of their lives in a time where crate training was unheardof. I'm guessing, though, that back in the day, more dogs lived out in the yard, and more women stayed home as housewives. It's not too difficult to potty train a dog or keep him from tearing up your house if "mom" is home to watch him all day, or he's in the yard where he can't get to anything to pee on or tear up. However, times do change, and people do live lifestyles where crating might be necessary. There are people living in apartments that don't have yards that are getting dogs, and there are people who are keeping their dogs indoors, but also every member of the family has to be off at work or school during the day. In situations like this, crating is extremely practical. But there are still plenty of people who live a lifestyle where crating is completely unecessary. 

Personally, I use a crate because my dog has Separation Anxiety. He's potty trained and doesn't have a habit of "getting into things," but crating has definitely helped with his anxiety. It encourages him to go to sleep instead of pacing around, plus, I can spray some DAP spray on his pillow a few minutes before we leave, and this keep him calmer. He also will scratch on doors and poop as soon as he's left alone. I've literally taken the trash out and come back inside to see a pooping dog. This isn't because he isn't potty trained, it's a panicked reaction to suddenly being left alone. So yeah, crating has plenty of benefits.


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## sagira (Nov 5, 2009)

I agree with the posters about the changing societal and cultural norms. I happen to be a stay at home mom who homeschools, so I'll be home all day with my puppy, or at the park with kids and dog. When I won't be home, I'll be using a crate. Also for nighttime and until puppy can be trusted in the house without any accidents. I want her to associate the crate with good things, and will train accordingly. 

I wholeheartedly agree with RaeganW about crate training being a life skill, as sometimes dog needs to be crated for kenneling, grooming, the vet's, general travel on planes, trains or as in our area, if there's a hurricane and you need to take your dog to the shelter, you need a crate to keep her safely confined.


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## melgrj7 (Sep 21, 2007)

My parents used crates for our dogs when I was a kid, and my dad said his parents did too. I was born in 1985 btw. My dogs are crated when I'm not home and at night when I'm asleep (so the cats can roam without fear of harrassement!). That being said, they usually go to work with me and often someone else is home so if I did leave them home they can be out of their crates. They keep my kitties safe, my stuff safe (Nash will chew stuff), keep the dogs from fighting when no one is there to break it up.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

For some owners crates have replaced the baby gates and newspapers to train dogs. To each his own.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

FilleBelle said:


> "So much more effective" than what?
> 
> If a crate-trained dog is in its crate while you are not present to supervise it, then you know for a fact it isn't going to hurt itself, mess with/destroy your belongings, or go to the bathroom on your rug.
> 
> Is it so much more effective than just walking out the door and praying none of these things happen? Yes.


Aside from the possibility of harming itself trying to get out of the crate.

I personally never used one until recently, and stopped using it again now. It served a purpose for what I needed and I may use it again when needed.

Nothing against crating dogs, especially when traveling in the back of a truck or something. But it's not for everyone, or every dog.

If I didn't have 2 dogs I wouldn't own one.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

FilleBelle said:


> If *a crate-trained dog* is in its crate while you are not present to supervise it, then you know for a fact it isn't going to hurt itself, mess with/destroy your belongings, or go to the bathroom on your rug.





TxRider said:


> Aside from the possibility of harming itself trying to get out of the crate.
> 
> I personally never used one until recently, and stopped using it again now. It served a purpose for what I needed and I may use it again when needed.
> 
> ...


If it's hurting itself in order to get out of the crate, it isn't crate trained.

No tool works on every dog, hence the reason I specified the type of dog on which this tool does work.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

I am the forum anti-crate advocate  I never use crates, I always confinement train in a dog safe room with a baby gate or 2. I don't find any delay (and actually in many cases speeds up) the process of acclimatng the dog to being left alone in the house safely and potty training is never a problem. I have trained all my pups this way and my current 5 month old pup has been house broken for a month and can be left out on her own (with our other 4 dogs) with out destroying things. Just a little note I ask all the time what's with the great US dependence on crates? You'd almost think it were foreign oil... hardly anyone crates in Europe yet here in the US we are too dependant on our crates IMO. I will admit there are certain instances where a crate is necessairy such as dogs taht don't get along, but for smething simple like house breaking , there are better less psychologically traumatic ways. I hate it.


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I will admit there are certain instances where a crate is necessairy such as dogs taht don't get along, but for smething simple like house breaking , there are better less psychologically traumatic ways. I hate it.


That's where I would disagree. It's not traumatizing at all to most dogs IMO.

For one of mine it isn't, to the other one it is.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> hardly anyone crates in Europe yet here in the US we are too dependant on our crates IMO.


I'd like to mention that at least the French spend a MUCH smaller percentage of their lives away at work than Americans do, and they have a ton more vacation time, so being home to watch the dogs might be a little bit easier for them, lol! 

As for the "crates being psychologically traumatizing" comment. My dog (suffering from SA) is actually calmer when left alone in his crate than when he's left out in the house alone. He doesn't display nearly as many panicked behaviors when he's in his crate. It's been a wonderfully useful tool in managing his SA. I don't understand how it would be psychologically traumatizing. Also, he spends 18 hours+ per day sleeping, and most of that time is spent sleeping in his crate. If a dog will voluntarily spent 18+ hours snoozing in a crate with the door wide open... What's the matter with spending 5 of those hours with the door shut?


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## Ocsi (Oct 11, 2009)

I think crates got popular because of research on canines. 
That and people were tired of cleaning up their poop and pee while they were potty training and hated covering their kitchen floors with newspaper! 
I remember we did that when I was a little girl.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I think both methods work well, and can be used together! I got a baby gate for my kitchen as well as a crate for my pup. Crate is left in a section of the kitchen 24/7. Cadence only gets crated at night (as in door shut and everything), but in the day he has full roam of the kitchen when I'm not home. When I'm home, he has full access to the entire apartment.

I think the gate works better for people who aren't able to let their pups out every 3-5 hours while training them.. it's certainly better to have the puppies eliminate on pee pads/newspapers on the floor than having to pee in its crate. 

But honestly, none of the dogs I've met have been "traumatized" by being crated. Most of them love their crates and go in there willingly without having to be asked, and will stay in there even with the door open.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I personally think all dogs should be crate trained. That doesn't mean that you have to crate your dog but they should be able to tolerate a crate. You never know when one may be needed, such as the vets. Someone on another forum once said she'd never leave her dog at the vets, he would come home with her but in some instances, that may not be possible. If your dog happened to get loose & ended up at a shelter, they may be crated. 
I've had dogs that have to be crated when we're not home & at night and those who don't. My younger sheltie just turned ten, he's always used a crate but does not need it. When we adopted our older sheltie, she's quite the little alpha bitch & an ER visit was required on the younger one (she bit his butt, lacerated his rectum). Since he is happy in a crate and she is not, it makes sense to crate him and leave her loose. If she passed away today, he'd be loose. At night, he sleeps with us while she sleeps in the livingroom. Our pbgv is crated at night & when we are not home.
As for when crating became popular, we got our first puppy in 1987 & when our first morning with him included piles of poop in the bedroom, we purchased our first crate.


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## roxybichonica (Jan 16, 2010)

new dog in community

http://viatadebichon.blogspot.com/


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## bumblegoat (Jun 22, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> hardly anyone crates in Europe yet here in the US we are too dependant on our crates IMO.


I live in Europe, Sweden to be more exact, and here it is even illegal to use crate training! If you mention using a crate (in your home) on a Swedish dog forum you WILL be hated. Probably sounds very strange to most members here.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

This settles it. I need to find a cause. Something to be against.

I, and others, have been accused--directly or indirectly, implicitly or explicitly--of abusing dogs, for not letting a dog/dogs sleep inside the house every night of his life, using choke and prong collars, tail docking and ear cropping, and for feeding store-bought food. I've been accused of "electrocuting" dogs with a remote electric collar, and even chastised for speaking sharply to dogs. There are people who strenuously object to spaying and neutering pet animals or, alternatively, not spaying or neutering. Now crates are psychological trauma. 

It's been my experience that all the above are far more objectionable to people who don't have to live with my dog, than they are to any of the dogs I've owned. Some people even object to the concept of dog "ownership". 

So it looks like all the good ones have been taken already. Anybody got any ideas? Ooh, ooh, I know....dogs in the wild don't need names. Assigning a name to a dog, and insisting that he respond to it, is unnatural, stressful, and humiliating to dogs. That's the ticket.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> This settles it. I need to find a cause. Something to be against.
> 
> I, and others, have been accused--directly or indirectly, implicitly or explicitly--of abusing dogs, for not letting a dog/dogs sleep inside the house every night of his life, using choke and prong collars, tail docking and ear cropping, and for feeding store-bought food. I've been accused of "electrocuting" dogs with a remote electric collar, and even chastised for speaking sharply to dogs. There are people who strenuously object to spaying and neutering pet animals or, alternatively, not spaying or neutering. Now crates are psychological trauma.
> 
> ...


MM:
When you're right, you're right. 

Well I'm half Norwegian, I now have another reason not to ever visit Sweden.

I would have to leave my crates at the border.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> I, and others, have been accused--directly or indirectly, implicitly or explicitly--of abusing dogs, for not letting a dog/dogs sleep inside the house every night of his life, using choke and prong collars, tail docking and ear cropping, and for feeding store-bought food. I've been accused of "electrocuting" dogs with a remote electric collar, and even chastised for speaking sharply to dogs. There are people who strenuously object to spaying and neutering pet animals or, alternatively, not spaying or neutering. Now crates are psychological trauma.
> 
> It's been my experience that all the above are far more objectionable to people who don't have to live with my dog, than they are to any of the dogs I've owned.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This!! Yes!!!! 



> Some people even object to the concept of dog "ownership".
> 
> So it looks like all the good ones have been taken already. Anybody got any ideas? Ooh, ooh, I know....dogs in the wild don't need names. Assigning a name to a dog, and insisting that he respond to it, is unnatural, stressful, and humiliating to dogs. That's the ticket.


FWIW while I always recommend Pos. Reinf. on the DF I don't always use it on my own dog. I always START any dog that way. With some, you never need to use other tools. 

I would recommend methods of correction but my experience with ppl is they really can do some stupid things and inadvertantly be cruel and hurt the dog. You can't hurt the dog with a clicker and food (or YES! and food) or toys unless you bounce the clicker/Food/toys off the dog's head. If you do it wrong with Pos. Reinf. you typically have a dog that is none the wiser and still untrained.. but you have not added trauma. 

To say that crates are psychologically traumatizing is just going "beyond the bend." 

I suppose the next thing I will hear is it is psychologically traumatizing to keep horses in box stalls... and cattle in fenced areas... and kids in class rooms... and adults in cubicles.... 

..hey wait.. that last one needs a second look...


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

wvasko said:


> MM:
> When you're right, you're right.
> 
> Well I'm half Norwegian, I now have another reason not to ever visit Sweden.
> ...


I'm Swedish and Norwegian....I use a crate but I don't like it, but my dog does.....


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> To say that crates are psychologically traumatizing is just going "beyond the bend...


How is it that beyond the bend when you see dogs in shelter, or from mill raids that all they do is spin from being improperly crated. Or owners who abuse crating and keep a dog in there 12-14 hours a day. Working closely with rescues/shelters, I have seen many cases that stem from over-crating a dog where it's been psychologically tramuatized.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

bumblegoat said:


> I live in Europe, Sweden to be more exact, and here it is even illegal to use crate training! If you mention using a crate (in your home) on a Swedish dog forum you WILL be hated. Probably sounds very strange to most members here.


What is it about crate training is it that makes the swedes hate it so much?


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> How is it that beyond the bend when you see dogs in shelter, or from mill raids that all they do is spin from being improperly crated. Or owners who abuse crating and keep a dog in there 12-14 hours a day. Working closely with rescues/shelters, I have seen many cases that stem from over-crating a dog where it's been psychologically tramuatized.


Nobody is advocating crating a dog for 14 hours a day.

A dog that's kept in a room for the same amount of time will get just as restless. Unless you have a space of several acres, minimum, dogs aren't generally going to exercise themselves and will end up bored and exhibit the behaviors you mention.

I've seen dogs come through the rescue with choke collars, prongs, regular collars imbedded into the skin of their necks. I've seen dogs that urinate at the sight of a cell phone from overuse of e-collars. I've seen dogs that attack someone who makes hard eye contact with them because their owner used dominance postures on them improperly. It goes on and on and on.

Abuse of ANYTHING is bad. Nobody is suggesting anyone to abuse the crate. If a crate is bad because of some of the traumatized dogs that come into the shelter, then all men are bad because of the dogs fearful of men, all women ar ebad because of dogs fearful of women, all collars are bad because of people neglecting them, all e-collars are bad because someone used it at the highest setting and zapped it good, all leashes are bad because someone hanged their dog with it to punish, the list goes on and on.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> How is it that beyond the bend when you see dogs in shelter, or from mill raids that all they do is spin from being *improperly crated*. Or owners who *abuse crating* and keep a dog in there 12-14 hours a day. Working closely with rescues/shelters, I have seen many cases that stem from over-crating a dog where it's been psychologically tramuatized.


I bolded the parts of your post that IMO answer your question. Crates in and of themselves are not psychologically traumatizing - but the misuse and abuse of them very well can be. I could say the same for any other tool out there. A plain flat leash (for example) is not naturaly traumatizing to a dog. If I used one to beat my dog repeatedly however, it would quickly become a source of fear and drama for that dog. 

As has been said in previous threads, it's not the tool but the person and their method that makes all difference.

EDIT: R kinda beat me to it.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

RBark said:


> Nobody is advocating crating a dog for 14 hours a day.
> 
> A dog that's kept in a room for the same amount of time will get just as restless. Unless you have a space of several acres, minimum, dogs aren't generally going to exercise themselves and will end up bored and exhibit the behaviors you mention.
> 
> ...


couldn't have said this better....I agree 100%


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## bumblegoat (Jun 22, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> What is it about crate training is it that makes the swedes hate it so much?


Well, they hate it because it's illegal, simple as that. Which is quite unfortunate really, because the use of crates can never really be debated on a Swedish dog forum.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

bumblegoat said:


> Well, they hate it because it's illegal, simple as that. Which is quite unfortunate really, because the use of crates can never really be debated on a Swedish dog forum.


Is there a reason it became illegal?....also just curious but how do vets keep dogs over night or after procedures with out crates?..what about the groomers?...etc


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

pugmom said:


> Is there a reason it became illegal?....also just curious but how do vets keep dogs over night or after procedures with out crates?..what about the groomers?...etc


Exactly wondering the same thing. 

I use pens mostly, not crates. Same concept though. I do have issues keeping Mia in a pen though so she's crated or kept in a puppy proof room. She tends to do better in a crate though. 

To me crates are important to teach my dogs to tolerate. I transport mine in their crates. They ride in crates in the car, etc. We've used them since our first sheltie, about 15 or so years now, I guess.


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## bumblegoat (Jun 22, 2009)

pugmom said:


> Is there a reason it became illegal?....also just curious but how do vets keep dogs over night or after procedures with out crates?..what about the groomers?...etc


I don't know why it became illegal, unfortunately. There are few cases where crates are okay to use, and I'm sure at the vets and groomers has to be some of those. Well that or they must have bigger pens that are big enough not to be considered crates.

If you want to teach your dog to like the the crate so the dog can deal with situations where they have to be crated, you would just have to do it without closing the crate door. It is of course not illegal to have an open crate.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

RBark said:


> Nobody is advocating crating a dog for 14 hours a day.
> 
> A dog that's kept in a room for the same amount of time will get just as restless. Unless you have a space of several acres, minimum, dogs aren't generally going to exercise themselves and will end up bored and exhibit the behaviors you mention.
> 
> ...


 and that is the reason I am opposed is that too many people generally DO overuse crates. I bet if some one were to do a poll of the average dog owning public and ask how/if they use crating and how, that most of us would find they did it wrong or for too long and with unrealisitc expecataions of what crating was suppose to achieve.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

bumblegoat said:


> Well, they hate it because it's illegal, simple as that. Which is quite unfortunate really, because the use of crates can never really be debated on a Swedish dog forum.


Why were they made illegal?


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Dog_Shrink said:


> and that is the reason I am opposed is that too many people generally DO overuse crates. I bet if some one were to do a poll of the average dog owning public and ask how/if they use crating and how, that most of us would find they did it wrong or for too long and with unrealisitc expecataions of what crating was suppose to achieve.


And if we made a poll on how many people abuse leashes, we would probably find most people use the dog's leash as a steering or jerking chain.

That doesn't make leashes bad. It makes people bad.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> and that is the reason I am opposed is that too many people generally DO overuse crates. I bet if some one were to do a poll of the average dog owning public and ask how/if they use crating and how, that most of us would find they did it wrong or for too long and with unrealisitc expecataions of what crating was suppose to achieve.


I really doubt that. My family was as average as you could possibly get when we got our Sheltie about 25 years ago. We had never had an indoor dog before, had never used a crate before, and yet the thought that we could or should leave him in his crate for hours on end never crossed our mind. I think you do the average dog owner a big diservice. I'm sure there are some who abuse crates, just like there are some who abuse leashes, collars, and pretty much any other training tool available. That doesn't mean the majority do, and that doesn't make the tool itself bad.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

RBark said:


> Nobody is advocating crating a dog for 14 hours a day.
> 
> A dog that's kept in a room for the same amount of time will get just as restless. Unless you have a space of several acres, minimum, dogs aren't generally going to exercise themselves and will end up bored and exhibit the behaviors you mention.
> 
> ...


^^^^^^^^^ This. Yes. Perfect. I would click and treat but I don't have your addy.. so I cannot send you any of that Single malt as a reward... 

Any tool abuse and any stance against any tool for the few that abuse that tool that is extreme is "around the bend... " 

It is not puppy millers and abusers who come here for advice.. it is pet dog owners for the most part. 

No idea the rest of the posts by DS.. still on my Ignore List... Only see what others have quoted. <shrug>


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

I think I'm pretty average, well as average as it gets with school, work, and a dog... and I still manage to use a crate correctly. I agree with R on this one by far. The crate is simply a useful tool. 

I go to school and I have to sit in one room for the majority of the day...is this traumatizing to me? No. Boring? yes, but far from traumatizing. Alot of dogs see crates as their own 'space' so it's obviously not too horribly mind altering for them. Our Chihuahua was raised without a crate and he did okay but we had a rough time potty training him.


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## StarfishSaving (Nov 7, 2008)

Most people I know use crates appropriately.

I won't take offense to the notion that I am traumatizing my dogs by keeping them SAFE and out of danger (while preserving my sanity) when I leave the house, because it is absurd. I won't punish myself because some people are lazy or don't know what they're doing. The crate is a tool that has saved MANY dogs' lives.


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## Dog_Shrink (Sep 29, 2009)

Wow do people only like to see what they want. Crates can be traumatizing when not used properly or abused. Geesh.


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## baorb (Mar 14, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Wow do people only like to see what they want.


Ask yourself that.  



Dog_Shrink said:


> Crates can be traumatizing when not used properly or abused. Geesh.


Every tool can be traumatizing when not used properly or abused.
I think everyone can agree on that. So pointless really.

I am against food because "average dog owners" do not properly feed their dog(s). 
Isn't that a ridiculous argument ?


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## StarfishSaving (Nov 7, 2008)

Dog_Shrink said:


> Wow do people only like to see what they want.


What I saw was this:



> but for smething simple like house breaking , there are better less psychologically traumatic ways.


I missed where there was any implication that you were talking about abuse, and if you were, then like others have said, it's pointless.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I have never used a crate....I have kept dogs in a small, damage-proof room until they were old enough to behave themselves. My current dogs stay in the mud room when I'm not home so no kitties get munched. I don't see a difference between putting a dog in a small room versus putting them in a crate. Seems pretty comparable to me. They just sleep when you're not home anyway.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

i got my beagle when i was 13 and remember having a crate, but don't remember her ever using it. i really don't remember much about her house training. but we recently got a german shepherd and i know if we hadn't had a crate it would have been much more difficult to house train him, as there are no areas we could confine him in the house. he's housetrained at 5 months and has almost no need for the crate anymore. it's a great tool for younger dogs, but definitely not something that should be used regularly all their life.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> idefinitely not something that should be used regularly all their life.


Any reason you think this? Definitely? Shouldn't be used? I mean, some families have the circumstances to allow the dog to have run of the house once it's trained, and that's great. But what if you're trying to keep the cats from being munched? What if the dog is destructive? Just curious.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Willowy said:


> Any reason you think this? Definitely? Shouldn't be used? I mean, some families have the circumstances to allow the dog to have run of the house once it's trained, and that's great. But what if you're trying to keep the cats from being munched? What if the dog is destructive? Just curious.


And also, in the case of my girls, fighting. I don't trust them alone together. Personally I just gate them apart, but why would crating/gating not be OK?


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## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

The thing that seems weird about crates to me is that they seem like... I can't find the words... an easy way out? A bit Stepford Dogs? Dogs chew stuff and go to the toilet in the wrong place. If you're not prepared for a bit of chaos in your life then maybe you shouldn't get a dog. If you don't have time to spend with your dog, then maybe you shouldn't get a dog.

I can see that training your dog to be comfortable in a crate is a good idea for travel, or extended trips to the vet, but beyond that, I don't see why you need them. Just in case he wants to chew a table leg or dig a hole in the couch? Not a good enough reason for me. 

Our dogs always had the run of the house. Sometimes we would come home to find a little accident near the back door. Fine. It wasn't the dog's fault that she couldn't get out. Better her doing a pee near the door than being uncomfortable all day because she needed to pee and couldn't.

Crating just seems to fit in with all that other 'quick fix' stuff we humans do now: can't (be bothered to) control your kid? Medicate it. Can't (be bothered to) control your weight? Take a pill. Can't (be bothered to) deal with a bit of mess from your dog? Crate it while your out. It's not abuse. It won't traumatise your dog, but something about it, like the other examples, doesn't sit right with me.


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## yappypappymom (Oct 22, 2009)

I found using a crate to be very instrumental in Leifs baby/training phase...but, now that he has hit his 5 mo. mark, I am happy to reoprt that a kennel is no longer a "need" for us. He has proven himself reliable & trustworthy when I am gone just by being confined to my kitchen..he has NEVER chewed up nor ruined ANYTHING...his bladder is more mature..I TRUST him now...we still have his kennel..I took the door off of it even. He STILL chooses to lay in it of his own free accord..., but, its not something that I HAVE to kennel him for. Hes a good boy...good boys get far more freedom than the pups that you are just unsure of.
My opinion of kennels..sure,...they are a very instrumental part of the training process,...but,..as your dog grows & matures, I would hope that their owners grow & mature as well, & give their dogs some benefit of a doubt here & there...who knows...SOME may be a bit "suprised" as to how how far their dogs have grown & learned!!


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Luce said:


> A bit Stepford Dogs? Dogs chew stuff and go to the toilet in the wrong place. If you're not prepared for a bit of chaos in your life then maybe you shouldn't get a dog. If you don't have time to spend with your dog, then maybe you shouldn't get a dog.


I hardly think using a crate means you can't/won't/don't want to deal with these things. Rather crates are ONE method available to help train your dog and in some situations, keep him from harm.

Once agian, the same can be said for most other tools out there. Why use a leash instead of relying constantly on your dog's recall? After all, dogs are going to run and want to be chased once in awhile...right? By your definition the leash would qualify as the quick fix since all you really have to do is slap it on and be on your way. Still we use them because it can help train good manners and keeps the dogs safe in public. The same theory applies to crating. Using these tools doesn't make your dog into a stepford dog...it makes them into a well behaved dog (when used correctly, of course) and there's not really anything wrong with that.


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## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

Dakota Spirit said:


> I hardly think using a crate means you can't/won't/don't want to deal with these things. Rather crates are ONE method available to help train your dog and in some situations, keep him from harm.
> 
> Once agian, the same can be said for most other tools out there. Why use a leash instead of relying constantly on your dog's recall? After all, dogs are going to run and want to be chased once in awhile...right? By your definition the leash would qualify as the quick fix since all you really have to do is slap it on and be on your way. Still we use them because it can help train good manners and keeps the dogs safe in public. The same theory applies to crating. Using these tools doesn't make your dog into a stepford dog...it makes them into a well behaved dog (when used correctly, of course) and there's not really anything wrong with that.



I see where you're coming from Dakota, but to me, I see leashing as a safety measure for the dog, but I see crating as a safety measure for the furniture.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

Luce said:


> I see where you're coming from Dakota, but to me, I see leashing as a safety measure for the dog, but I see crating as a safety measure for the furniture.


Ok, well say that's true...why does that make crating bad? In my mind, if crate training can better help dog and owner live harmoniously I don't see what the issue is. You yourself agree that crating isn't inherently bad (in that it doesn't permanently scar the dogs) and can occasionally have it's uses. Why can't protecting your furniture when you're away be one of those uses? It's kind of like people who choose not to let their pets up on leather sofas. Essentially that is also protecting one's furniture (their claws can scratch) but it also doesn't negatively affect the dog, making it more or less a win/win situation. One doesn't need to let their dog have free run to do as it pleases in order to make an ideal owner. That's what training is all about.

I'm not meaning to signel just you out, Luce - you just happened to be the person I quoted


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## Luce (Jan 12, 2010)

Hey Dakota, nah that's fine, I don't feel singled out  I guess my position is that, if you want to protect your furniture, or carpet, etc., and you don't trust your dog not to chew your furniture or pee in the right spot while you're out, you could try the kitchen or another dog-friendly area of the house. But the point of a crate it that it is so small that the dog can sleep, and do nothing else. The dog can't/won't pee/poop unless it is absolutely busting, because it doesn't want to mess up it's bed. And just because they can hold their bladder for 4-8 hours at a time, doesn't mean it's comfortable for them. And it definitely can't run around, or play. 

Of course the best solution (IMO) is to have well trained dogs and (if possible) a dog door!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

First, the obligatory happy-dog-in-a-crate photos. It's a good thing I don't have to pay royalties to Esther every time I post these.



















We brought Esther home from the shelter in a crate. She was my fifth dog, but this was my first crate. When we got home, I put the crate in the garage and promptly forgot about it.

In the first few weeks, Hurricane Esther did an unimaginable amount of damage in the house. The concept of a dog-proof room became a fantasy. Then, I remembered the crate.

I retrieved it from the garage and began what I imagined would be a long process of acclimation. I opened the door, she walked in and went to sleep. I believe it's the first time I had actually seen her sleep.

Each time she'd go in there, I'd give her a treat and say (probably unnecessarily) "Go to sleep." Soon, my wife, (who believes that dogs understand a joke) would say to Esther, in the middle of the day, "Esther, go to sleep" and Esther would get in her crate. I'd have to go get her and say, "No, Esther, Diane is KIDDING." I would have understood if the dog was confused, but she was perfectly fine with the crate and the weird routine . . .

. . . right up until we started the transition toward moving to our new home. At first, Esther and I were there alone a lot and my wife was still back in the old house. One night, I put Esther in her crate, went to bed and - about five minutes later - heard her stampeding up the stairs. I actually thought that, in the strangest case of vandalism ever, somebody had broken into my house and released Hurricane Esther. 

I took her back to her crate, double-checked the latch, and went back to bed. Five minutes later, she was standing at my bedside and I discovered the latch was sprung. I put her back in the crate and secured it with a couple of those really heavy rubber bungees.

It took her about ten minutes to break through (not chew through) the bungees, so we had a talk. "Esther, you seem to think you've out-grown the crate, so let's give it a try."

Except for transportation, she hasn't been in the crate since. Molly used the crate for house-training and we have a large, dog-safe area that used to be a family recreation room, where they can be safe if left alone for more than a few hours. They sleep in our room at night and, for a few hours, have the run of the house when alone. Up until several weeks ago, they were spending a LOT more time in the dog room and they are gradually earning more freedom. 

It's a happy household.

BTW, my previous dog, a 115# lab, didn't have a crate, but he would seek out crate-like places to relax.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Luce said:


> I see where you're coming from Dakota, but to me, I see leashing as a safety measure for the dog, but I see crating as a safety measure for the furniture.


Only works as a safety for furniture if you use it.... (see below)

I use a crate.. but one day.. I left a Then Younger Atka in the living room. She was dead to the world.. I thought. I left the room, went in the basement to deal with laundry. Gone about 5 minutes. 

While down stairs I heard this rumbling noise.

I came back upstairs to find the entire "dead to the world" a complete and utter RUSE. My dog was using this camoflage to sneak up on the Pumpkin Pine slab Coffee table and chew on the corner of it. The "rumbling noise" was her gnawing...

I still have both dog and coffee table. I keep them around to remind me why I have a crate.... 

Fact is, now that the crate is down stairs and I confine her in an area at night upstairs (or whenh I leave the room ) she often sleeps UNDER the coffee table (which works sort of like a crate).

BTW she has not done a single sneak attack on the table since. Maybe because I came upstairs and she and I met eyes while her mouth was wrapped around the corner of it. 

RonE... All I can say is "yes.." LOL


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## skelaki (Nov 9, 2006)

As far as a crate only being good to protect the furniture goes this is patently false. A properly used crate could save your dog's life. Dogs often chew inappropriate objects like electrical cords, poisonous plants, and other items that could cause blockages and potential harm or even death. They can't do this if crated. In a car, a crate (seatbelt harness is an alternative) could keep your dog from becoming a missle and flying through the windshield, or from escaping into traffic and being killed. Also, emergency workers will not approach a car with a loose dog in it but must wait for animal control to come and secure the animal if the owner should be incapacitated. The method they use to do so would definitely be traumatizing to a frightened dog. And the time "wasted" waiting before the emergency crews could treat injured people could make the difference between complete recovery and permanent disability or worse. Btw, the seatbelt harness would still mean the emergency crew could not approach the car until AC came and secured the dog.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Luce said:


> I see where you're coming from Dakota, but to me, I see leashing as a safety measure for the dog, but I see crating as a safety measure for the furniture.


There's a LOT of things that could kill a dog outside the crate. Swallowing splintery wood, eating socks and choking on it, chewing electrical cords, getting into cleaning chemicals, the list goes on. I know you haven't had that experience, but there have been a LOT of incidents of that happening. Nobody has 100% perfect management.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

It is weird, through the years I have purchased and brought home various sized crate etc for whatever reasons. In all that time with all the different crates, I have never got a crate home set it up and then have the crate scream at me that I must use the crate for the balance of the dog's life. It is a crate only, not your boss, use it when needed and then lose it when not needed. The idea that some people think that crates have to be used for the duration of a dog's life is way out there in left field. If you have a dog that does need crate then use it and don't lose it. How simple is that. Personal choices are the property of the people making the choices.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

Luce said:


> The thing that seems weird about crates to me is that they seem like... I can't find the words... an easy way out? A bit Stepford Dogs? Dogs chew stuff and go to the toilet in the wrong place. If you're not prepared for a bit of chaos in your life then maybe you shouldn't get a dog. If you don't have time to spend with your dog, then maybe you shouldn't get a dog.
> 
> I can see that training your dog to be comfortable in a crate is a good idea for travel, or extended trips to the vet, but beyond that, I don't see why you need them. Just in case he wants to chew a table leg or dig a hole in the couch? Not a good enough reason for me.
> 
> ...


I completely disagree with this post ....I don't see using a crate as lazy...sure its a tool and can be misused...but I don't see it as protecting the couch from the dog but more protecting the dog from the couch....if you've ever had a dog die from a intestinal blockage you might view things a little different


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I agree with both RBark and skelaki, I don't think people crate their dogs just because they might chew their furniture. Dogs can find lots of dangerous things to get into when they are left on their own. I have small dogs so I don't have to worry about them getting up on things but there is no guarantees that they are not going to get a cupboard open and eat something dangerous or chew on wires no matter how you protect them, so crating for a while when you can't be home is the sensible thing to do.

Whether you crate them or pen them up in a safe place is accomplishing the same thing, it just isn't always possible to pen them up, two of mine will climb out of any pen made unless it has a top on it, then they may as well be in a crate.

Any sort of small enclosure if a dog is left in it too long, can cause vices like spinning, etc. Puppy mill dogs do it, dogs kenneled all the time with no exercise find ways of using their energy, so you cannot blame crates for these problems.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Penny LOVES crates. If I could, I would have several pictures of her being happy in her crate. Unfortunately, when I gave her a crate, the cats peed in it whenever Penny wasn't in it....so no crate. So now she sleeps under the end table and coffee table during the day. Her nighttime bed is under my bed, LOL.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

i dont crate my dogs. i do however do something kind of similar for the cats but they are never closed in unless the front door needs to be held open for an extended period of time or i have a lot of dogs in the house...

but i also deliberately structure my schedule so that crating the dog is unnessecary.

that and the current dog can and will destroy a crate and hurt herself in the process. she is safer out of a crate than in. she doesnt seek out den like areas either...she sleeps on my bed. i think she's claustrophobic. she acts the same way in any space that is so confining she cant stretch out totally and roll over. at the vet's i pay an extra 30 bucks or so to have her in a solitary room for overnight stays or i have her come home and the vet school intern comes out to the house. we use a seatbelt harness in cars and i dont air travel. im scared of excessive height and will take a car or a boat first. 

my only point is that a crate is not mandatory for dog ownership. both sides tend to get oversensitive about these kinds of issues. 


and none of this even makes people bad. it makes ignorance and lack of forethought bad.


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## baorb (Mar 14, 2009)

A crate is a tool, it's not going to work for every dog just every other tool.
We have a very fearful dog, a crate is like heaven for her. 
While for my klee kai, a crate is like hell for her. 

We leave the door open, now we don't really use it for him anymore.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

Dog_Shrink said:


> I am the forum anti-crate advocate  I never use crates, I always confinement train in a dog safe room with a baby gate or 2.


The "shut the puppy in a safe room" is a fallacy. Very few houses even have a safe room. How many of us have a room with a hard surfaced floor and nothing else? Most rooms have electrical cords to chew if nothing else. In addition to destroying anything a bored puppy finds to chew, it may choke or have intestinal blockage from the pieces. I had a friend that left her dog in a "safe" room. It ate a hole in the floor covering. The safe rooms fail to give the dog the comfort of the enclosed space their instinct requires. Nor do they restrict activity extending the time the dog can go without relieving itself.



Dog_Shrink said:


> 2. I don't find any delay (and actually in many cases speeds up) the process of acclimatng the dog to being left alone in the house safely and potty training is never a problem.


In the real world, we have gotten home late Sunday night with a new 7 week old puppy and had to go to work or school Monday morning. I wonder how anybody is able to go through all the leaving the puppy for short but increasing periods of time to acclimate it to being left alone. We just popped them into the crate and they were fine until one of us made it back for lunch. 



Dog_Shrink said:


> I have trained all my pups this way and my current 5 month old pup has been house broken for a month and can be left out on her own (with our other 4 dogs) with out destroying things.


I would love to have detailed instructions on just how you have managed that. Or could it be just having dogs less inclined to chew? Some of our Labs haven't been that bad, and the one Shepherd we had suddenly quit chewing other than her toys at about 4 months. Certainly the pet we had back in the 70's was much easier to raise without a crate than any of our puppies since then. 




Dog_Shrink said:


> Just a little note I ask all the time what's with the great US dependence on crates? You'd almost think it were foreign oil... hardly anyone crates in Europe yet here in the US we are too dependent on our crates IMO.


Could be. I know all the old biddies on one UK based site are aghast at the thought of leaving a puppy 4-5 hours in a crate with no bedding, food or water. A number of them question if people that work for a living should even have dogs. Americans have long been quicker to innovate and and accept improvements than Europe. 



Dog_Shrink said:


> but for something simple like house breaking , there are better less psychologically traumatic ways. I hate it.


I am actually against those that over use the crate in housebreaking. The goal is having the dog signal when it needs to go out. How can it do that in a crate? As for leaving the dog alone, loose in the house, it is in charge of the house. Leave it in the crate, and it has the greatly reduced responsibility just for the small area of the crate. The crate meets dogs psychological need for the protection of an enclosed space. Dogs are wired differently from us.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> my only point is that a crate is not mandatory for dog ownership. both sides tend to get oversensitive about these kinds of issues.


I had several dogs turn out just fine before I ever heard of a crate. If somebody doesn't want to use one--for whatever reason--that's a personal decision, and I'm fine with it as long as they don't go all bizzybody and start proposing legislation banning them. If crates were made illegal, it wouldn't keep me from owning a dog. The idea that proper crate training is some form of abuse is just too silly to entertain.



Labsnothers said:


> I wonder how anybody is able to go through all the leaving the puppy for short but increasing periods of time to acclimate it to being left alone. We just popped them into the crate and they were fine until one of us made it back for lunch.


What has worked for me is to arrange for a couple/three weeks of vacation coinciding with the arrival of a new pup. I use this time to acclimate the pup to the new house and the crate, to bond with the little stinker, and to get the pup on a schedule that meshes with that of the household. I recognize that everyone doesn't have that same luxury, but I highly recommend it.

And yes, if I have to go out during the day, I'll put the pup in the crate without ceremony. I will even leave him howling and balling as I walk out the door, confident in the knowledge that pup will get over it. They always do.


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

ive had people go all bizzybody on me for not using one...especially when they hear she is Da and suggest...well..more like declare i am an irresponsible owner because i dont. i personally dont like them so i dont use them..and with my current dog i couldnt even if i wanted to. a dogsitter stuck her in one against my wishes and she hurt herself trying to bust her way out. not cool.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> ive had people go all bizzybody on me for not using one....


I take the position that individuals are best positioned to decide what's best for their own dogs. Of course we all know that's not always true, but it's the only philosophy that works in the general sense. That fact that some indivual dogs should never be crated, or should be neutered, or some breeds are over-represented in dog bite statistics, is a terrible basis for sweeping assumptions. It's a worse basis for sweeping regulations.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Something I just thought about: I'd rather someone use a crate if they have a destructive dog than get frustrated & put the dog outside or take it to the shelter. A safe, crated dog, still living with it's family, is better, IMO


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I wonder how many dogs are exiled to the basement or garage, tied outside, or dumped at a shelter for problems a crate would have made short work of?


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## Active Dog (Jan 18, 2010)

The dog I have was adopted so I have never used a crate for her as a puppy. I do think that at a young age it can be an invaluable tool, and can help cut down on destruction and potty accidents. 

Using the crate with Ava didn't seem to work too well for when I left, she dug at the door and barked/whined etc. She used to chew up stuff and potty and then once she turned 2 it was as if it all went away. Since then I leave her out in a safe area and she does great and doesn't freak out. 

I also worry about if there was a fire she would be trapped in a box = /


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Labsnothers said:


> I wonder how many dogs are exiled to the basement or garage, tied outside, or dumped at a shelter for problems a crate would have made short work of?




probably just as many as crates have caused serious problems for.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> probably just as many as crates have caused serious problems for.


Yeah, that must be it.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

The puppy I have now, I had in a pen at first, but she would bark, chew at the wire and just generally was very unhappy. I started to crate her at night and she immediately settled right down, sleeps through the night with never a peep out of her. She is almost four months old now, and although I paper trained her at first as it was just too cold to take her outside, she now goes outside with the others to go to the bathroom.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Using a crate is a choice. I advise on its use as it has worked well for me. It won't work well for everyone or every dog. 

If you adopt a dog with "issues" and the dog damages herself or the crate or both in an attempt to escape, then you figure a crateless way to go. 

The problems occur when anyone believes in *Always* and *Never* as in Always crate your dog or Never crate your dog. Always and Never are absolute terms that apply in Math.. and even then there are problems where the variable may not behave in an always or never fashion. 

There are no absolutes with dogs (or people).


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Yeah, that must be it.


the comment i made was intended to mirror the comment i quoted. its the flipside. crates are not a magical cure all and they arent a evil satanic thing either. 

i personally dont use them. other people do. some dogs it helps, some dogs its not optimal for. see original point i made in this thread.


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