# How do you scold your dog?



## jrene8 (Nov 13, 2007)

Im not sure on how or what I should do when they do something they shouldn't. I don't want to use my hand to disapline her b/c that will make her affraid of me. Do you punish them for accidents in the house (during house training process)and tearing things up?

What do you suggest as punishment for a 13 week old puppy?

I really want to be the best parent for her and for her to the happiest dog life I can give her. Im not sure how to make her mind without making her timid of me also. Any ideals on this?

~ Jessica and Bayli


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## cascabel (Sep 25, 2007)

You don't. There is absolutely no need to punish a 13 week old puppy, especially with regards to housetraining. This will only teach them to be afraid to eliminate in front of you and will set back their housebreaking. 

If your puppy is misbehaving then that means you are not properly confining or watching them when not confined. If the puppy gets into something, it is your fault and not theirs. So if you must punish someone, punish yourself. 

And if you truly want to be the best parent for her, then I would recommend reading the sticky at the top of the first time owner and basic questions forum which I have also linked to below:

http://www.dogforums.com/19-first-time-dog-owner/3048-housetraining-how.html


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

sorry, i disagree....even a mother dog will discipline (notice i didn't say "punish") her pups......when i am raising/training a new puppy, and they do something wrong a sharp, quick "Uhhh, uhhh" is enuff to get their attention (same as a growl from mom) and if necessary a shake of the scruff of the neck (nothing harsh, you're not looking to hurt the pup) (again, same as Mom)......for pottying on the floor, i show them the spot, tell them gruffly "No, naughty" (maybe a few more words) and take them outside....as soon as the potty outside, i practically throw a party.....all my dogs have been house trained inside of 2 wks......i also use "umbilical cording" for house training so that i can catch them b/4 they have a chance to potty, this way they get more positive and very little negative......w/ all my Borders, i have "talks" w/ them when the do something wrong.....for them, it seems to work.....

there is nothing wrong w/ disciplining any child if you want them to grow up well established adult citizens (and that goes for dogs as well as human kids)....and, no, it is not always the persons fault when the pup/dog does something wrong......you can't be there 24/7 to make sure that they don't get into mischief.....all you can do is try to make sure that things are in order so that nothing _should_ happen......but puppies do need to be supervised or confined till they know the rules (pretty much for the first yr)....


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## xxxlisaxxx (Oct 15, 2007)

tirluc said:


> sorry, i disagree....even a mother dog will discipline (notice i didn't say "punish") her pups......when i am raising/training a new puppy, and they do something wrong a sharp, quick "Uhhh, uhhh" is enuff to get their attention (same as a growl from mom) and if necessary a shake of the scruff of the neck (nothing harsh, you're not looking to hurt the pup) (again, same as Mom)......for pottying on the floor, i show them the spot, tell them gruffly "No, naughty" (maybe a few more words) and take them outside....as soon as the potty outside, i practically throw a party.....all my dogs have been house trained inside of 2 wks......i also use "umbilical cording" for house training so that i can catch them b/4 they have a chance to potty, this way they get more positive and very little negative......w/ all my Borders, i have "talks" w/ them when the do something wrong.....for them, it seems to work.....
> 
> there is nothing wrong w/ disciplining any child if you want them to grow up well established adult citizens (and that goes for dogs as well as human kids)....and, no, it is not always the persons fault when the pup/dog does something wrong......you can't be there 24/7 to make sure that they don't get into mischief.....all you can do is try to make sure that things are in order so that nothing _should_ happen......but puppies do need to be supervised or confined till they know the rules (pretty much for the first yr)....



I totally agree with this. I have owned 4 dogs in my time the first 3 dogs I owned were fully housetrained within 2 weeks of getting them so around 9 weeks they were able to tell me they wanted to go out and all because I showed them the spot by holding their noses to it (not being rough) and saying "no" and then putting them outside. With my Sammie who is 14 weeks I never did this (as i felt guilty after all the reading i did on how wrong it was to put their noses into it etc) he however is getting there but he is still not 100% and did not seem to have a care in the world if he did the "odd" accident inside. So I had to start showing him it was wrong by doing the other method. I only have about one accident inside the house within a week but one is still too many so within the last few days I have started this method. He has however started to learn to tell me he wants to go outside but he is not consistent. The lack of accidents is due to me wearing a path to the back door every hour or so.

I also give a real loud sharp "ah ah" when I see a behaviour i dont like. As the saying goes if you dont want to have your dog doing certain things as an adult, dont let him do it while he is a puppy.


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## Anela (Sep 8, 2007)

I totally agree that discipline is a must no matter what the age. What would happen if the pup was chewing on a electric cord, would you allow this to happen and blow the dogs teeth out? 

All of my three dogs know the command "stop" that was instilled in them during crate training at an early age. If they are doing something I don't approve of, they get the command.

As far as discipline, if the infraction is more severe, they get a time out, alone in a closed bathroom for 15-20 minutes (no longer, they forget after that). Then we all make up. Rarely have I had to do more for mischief they have gotten in to, but I do have a few techniques tucked away just in case. My displeasure usually makes the point.

I also agree that when a dog does something wrong, it's the fault of the human, not the dogs. Dogs will get into mischief if you let them.

Anela


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## War (Oct 1, 2007)

The ONLY time you should ever discipline a dog is if you catch them in the act of doing something they shouldnt and then a sharp no should be enough,
There is no reason to ever discipline your dog using your hands
Your dog should always associate your hands as something that is good that will reach down and pet him not hurt him!
And 13 weeks is way too young for any discipline like that
If there is a need to discipline my dog which is rarely,I tell her a sharp no and that is more than enough for her to realize that I didnt like what she did,
And just remember NEVER discipline your dog for something they did hours ago only if you catch them in the act of being naughty


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

I'm with War on this one. The only times I've corrected Kim is when she went on the floor in front of me (she was 5 months old at that point, definitely understood house training, and had been taken out less than an hour beforehand), and once when she tried to eat the couch. Both times she got a firm "no" and then redirected to an appropriate behavior (taken outside; shown her chew toy that had been sitting 2 feet away). I should note that in both cases I actually witnessed the behavior and caught it in the act. 

At 13 weeks old your dog probably can't hold her bladder very long at all...if you combine crate training and taking her out frequently, you shouldn't have a problem. Correction, especially physical correction, really isn't necessary.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

i, also, disagree on the "don't discipline unless caught in the act" theory.....my pups, if they had an accident in the house or chewed something they shouldn't or whatever, and i didn't see it happen, would still get a verbal reprimand for the discretion.....they did know what was wrong and they did "act" accordingly.....it was usually along the lines of (chair leg chewed) "what is this? this is a 'no'! you chew on your toys, not my furniture." and give them a chew toy......to this day, i can point to something that any of my dogs did (having 5 in the house and not always knowing which one "did it") say, "What is this?" and the guilty one, and only the guilty one, will react w/ a turn of the head (away) and looking ashamed....

the idea that a dog doesn't remember what they did/what happened, even days b/4, doesn't wash.....if that were the case then how could a dog be trained for anything.....you can't say "repitition" as i have known dogs that have been trained something, and then it not used for months and the dog still remembers.....or they have lived somewhere for a long time, moved, and ever time they are taken back to that neighborhood they get excited.....my Lacey used to play w/ the HYPER DOG ball thrower (the sling shot) but i hadn't used the thing in over 2 yrs, had even sold it, but when i pulled one out recently to use to "shoot" geese off the river (no, i don't hit the geese, just close enuff to scare them) since we can't let the dogs out there to swim, she went literally nuts, wanting to play ball (forget the geese, she couldn't reach them anyways )......and on the "negative" side of remembering, a friend has a dog that had chewed his baseboard almost a yr ago....it was mentioned, in simple conversation, on how Caoimhe (Keeva) had chewed that and she slinked away and went to her crate.....there was no scolding voice, no showing it to her, anything....but she remembered......


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## jhawk (Feb 15, 2007)

I agree a dog should be diciplined like any human child. NOt punished. Absolutely no hitting. As far as potty training goes a pup should be taken out practically every hour (my experience). When pup does there business go oveboard w/ the praise. Inside pup has to be watched constantly so if he/she has an accident you can catch them in the act and give a sharp NO or whatever you choose to use, then imediatly thake the pup out. For inappropriat behavior a stern NO is always good. and over praise for good behavior. the key is BE CONSISTANT.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Puddles trainer told me the same thing about correcting at the exact time a behavior is exhibited. Never after the fact. My front porch is where I keep my dogs in the evening before I am ready to have the herd in for the night. Back a few weeks ago when Ollie first came, Dozer was wanting to mark everything he could and in turn Ollie would follo suit. Then Puddles would think HEY MEE TOO! I can tell whos pee was whos..Puddles in the middle of the floor, Ollie a little squirt 4 inches high and Dozer has larger Drops. After a few days of working with them on it. I would walk out and search the perimeter and see which one done it, And the culprit would already be in their outdoor crate. They know...and they know well..Thanks be to god..Its over now. it took about 3 weeks but it is all overwith.. And I didnt have to say anything, they knew better. I would say the culprits name then say NOO..And go walk the peer. Dogs are not as stupid as some folks want you to think they are.


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

At that age with my pups I was using "ah ah" with a hand clap when I caught them in the act of pottying in the house, chewing and whatnot. Then I would redirect them, if it was a potty accident I took them immediately outside, for chewing I gave them an appropriate chew toy. I don't have to correct them much anymore, they hardly ever get into things. I've never hit my dogs, I also don't punish them for things I didn't catch them doing. Occasionally for things like jumping up I'll turn my back and ignore, or rough play, toy hoarding, etc. gets them seperated behind a baby gate or the toys put away.


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## prolibertate (Nov 7, 2007)

Jessica, it's great that you want to do this in a positive way for you and your puppy. That's going to help foster a great relationship between the two of you.

First off, manage the environment...you need to puppy proof your home just as you would need to baby proof it for a newly crawling/walking baby. Keep her confined either in a crate or a pen when you can't supervise her. Also, tethering her to you while you're home is a good way to keep her out of trouble and to be able to notice when she needs to go potty. Puppies should be taken outside after they wake up, play, eat, and at 13 weeks at least every 1 1/2-2 hours otherwise. If a puppy has an accident in the house it's not her fault; it's ours for not watching her and making sure she got to her outside spot to go when she needed to go. 

Puppies can only hold it approximately 1 hour for every month of age, so 3 months = 3 hours, maybe  If you have to be gone during the day for work, and if she's a small dog, you can use a ugodog (ugodog.net) placed in a baby-gated area, and continue to take her outside when your home. I do this with my Shih-Tzu and haven't had a problem yet.

Also, at 13 weeks, your puppy is ready for puppy class; this will help with obedience and socialization. See if there's a good clicker training class in your area; the Internet or your vet might be able to suggest places, or perhaps someone you know who took their dog to a clicker class.

Get the book Your Outta Control Puppy by Teoti Anderson (don't let the title throw you; it simply refers to puppy behavior ;>). And check out the books at the link below; there are many good articles at this site also. Whether or not you can find a local clicker class, these will show you how to do this at home with your dog and is the fastest and best way I've ever seen to train a puppy or an older dog.

http://www.clickertraining.com/store/?item=index

There are times I give a short 'uh uh' (not in a harsh voice) and this will distract the puppy long enough to get him interested in chewing something he's allowed to chew. Then I taught my puppy to 'leave it' (see link for how to do this http://www.clickertraining.com/node/57) so now when I see him doing something I don't want, like trying to chew something, I tell him to leave it...this also worked with inhibiting his nibbling on my hands, after I had also done the 'ouch' and walked away to soften his bite first.

I don't believe any physical 'punishment' is ever needed; dogs don't understand it and all they learn is to fear their guardian. It's aggressive to the dog and I believe aggression begets aggression; at the minimum it begets fear of the person doing it. Also, physical correction such as neck scruffs, alpha rolls, etc., doesn't stop the behavior for good - it only stops it for right then...and this is when the dog figures out that he only has to not do this behavior when his guardian is there, and that when they're not then he can go to town. You want to teach your dog that the behavior is never acceptable, and that takes training, time, effort, patience and consistency. 

I've found that clicker training can work wonders with pretty much any behavior; even aggressive dogs have been desensitized to the things that set them off by using clicker training with them...and no physical punishment was needed. I look at it that I wouldn't do to my dog what I wouldn't do to my kids, spouse, parents, or grandparents; I'm not about to use physical force or 'spanking' on them, so I'm not about to use it on my dog.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Beautiful post above. Great advice!


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

I raise my voice to Ella - sometimes I don't even have to do that. If she pees in the house she already knows I will be upset and acts very guilty. I haven't had the need to really discipline her yet - except for one time last week. She peed on the couch (nice, huh?) right in front of me and I freaked! I put her in her crate and yelled at her and she just looked at me with the saddest face. After I cleaned the mess I took her out and couldn't stop cuddling her because I felt so bad. I know, probably not the best thing to do but I couldn't help it.


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## Harmonybear (Oct 24, 2007)

> At that age with my pups I was using "ah ah" with a hand clap when I caught them in the act of pottying in the house, chewing and whatnot


I try that with Luna, and it works _most_ of the time. But when she's really worked up and biting/chewing everything in sight (usually around 8pm every night), none of the normal things work. She just thinks the clapping is a game, or something. Saying "drop it" doesn't work either, even though she'll drop it nearly always when she's not so hyper. Saying "NO" very sternly doesn't work _either_ when she gets in that mood. The only thing that seems to work a little bit is holding her in the air at arms' length and _then_ saying "no" in a very serious voice. Even that only stops the behavior about 50% of the time after I put her back down. The only thing it's really good for is giving my feet a break from the biting and my ears a break from the barking. 

This dog doesn't seem to have shame. I think we're doing a very good job of being consistent in correcting her bad behavior (we've been following The Bark Stops Here ever since we got her - but she seems to have gotten rougher instead of gentler), but for some reason it doesn't seem to be getting through to her that she's being bad. I say "drop it" or "no" and clap my hands, and her tail just keeps wagging, like it's only a game. This is true whether or not she obeys me. I feel like I'm going to have to do something to get her to realize that we don't approve of her biting. Any suggestions?


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

I say No. And it that does not work I use the tssssk sound Ceasar Milan uses along with a snap of my fingers and I point at which ever dog it is meant for. Sounds funny but it really works.

They actually dont to much wrong. Once in a while chewing on something that is not thiers or every once in a while they stare at me while I am eating or on the computer and keep barking or howling wierdly at me, LoL.


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## Jaylie (Mar 5, 2007)

Sorry, just have to share this quote from my puppy raising manual. (The thing we get when we pick up our puppy in training.) 

"A rolled up newspaper can be very useful in the course of your housetraining. If you ever find feces or urine inside the house, smack yourself on the head with the newspaper a few times while in a stern voice you say, "I will NOT let this happen again, I will supervise him CONSTANTLY." then procceed to clean up the mess."

Anyway, what I do if I see my puppy start squatting, is I just go and pick it up and take it outside. No words or anything, just firmly pick him up in mid stream and carry him outside. Blitz never had an accident outside of my sight, but Jaylie had...(Yes, I was a newbie with Jaylie and was awful with the housetraining thing...) I never scolded if I didn't see it. Heck, I never scolded if I did see. I just take them outside, and PRAISE 'em up when they go outside. I wasn't consistent with this with Jaylie...With Blitz I was, and you could definately tell the difference. (Blitz took one week...Jaylie took two months.)


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Ya know..slapping myself with the newspaper has actually worked for Ollie and his screaming. He is suffering major separation anxiety. I will have him in his outdoor run while we are working here ( I run my business from my home) and he will scream as if someone is killing him. It got a little annoying to me and my employees when we are trying to put a dumptruck back together. I treid everything, removing myself from his feild of vision, ahh ahh, NO, stop, even the bad way of coddleing him. nothing worked. Then an employe walked over to the pen with a newpaper and smacked his hands with it.. and it ceased for the rest of the day..just like that. Next day, he forgot and we did it again and it stopped..now I have a newpaper curled up in the chainlink and it has all but ceased. nada..done..


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## MegaMuttMom (Sep 15, 2007)

Harmonybear, I don't think your goal should be to have your dog feel guilt or shame. You can teach what is right without instilling that. Like it is with kids, I believe it is always better to teach that what you did is what I don't like, it's not that I don't like you. The more you scold, the more that message gets confused. All it has taken with my dog is a firm ah-ah or a no and he backs off whatever he was doing. I then praise him for listening to me. As long as the behavior stops, isn't that enough?


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## cascabel (Sep 25, 2007)

prolibertate said:


> There are times I give a short 'uh uh' (not in a harsh voice) and this will distract the puppy long enough to get him interested in chewing something he's allowed to chew. Then I taught my puppy to 'leave it' (see link for how to do this http://www.clickertraining.com/node/57) so now when I see him doing something I don't want, like trying to chew something, I tell him to leave it...this also worked with inhibiting his nibbling on my hands, after I had also done the 'ouch' and walked away to soften his bite first.
> 
> I don't believe any physical 'punishment' is ever needed; dogs don't understand it and all they learn is to fear their guardian. It's aggressive to the dog and I believe aggression begets aggression; at the minimum it begets fear of the person doing it. Also, physical correction such as neck scruffs, alpha rolls, etc., doesn't stop the behavior for good - it only stops it for right then...and this is when the dog figures out that he only has to not do this behavior when his guardian is there, and that when they're not then he can go to town. You want to teach your dog that the behavior is never acceptable, and that takes training, time, effort, patience and consistency.
> 
> I've found that clicker training can work wonders with pretty much any behavior; even aggressive dogs have been desensitized to the things that set them off by using clicker training with them...and no physical punishment was needed. I look at it that I wouldn't do to my dog what I wouldn't do to my kids, spouse, parents, or grandparents; I'm not about to use physical force or 'spanking' on them, so I'm not about to use it on my dog.



This is exactly what I believe, but didn't articulate so well during my fit of insomnia last night.  I did use an 'ah ah' to distract and then redirect, but I don't consider this to be punishment in the general use of the word. 

I can't help but laugh when people use the excuse that 'the mother dog does it'.  Do they really think that dogs view as as other dogs? The answer to that is clearly no and is why I think trying to mimic the behavior of a mother dog is ridiculous. 

There are much better ways to train the dog without scolding or using traditional punishment. It just comes down to being creative instead of emotional.


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## Stitch (Nov 1, 2007)

cascabel said:


> If the puppy gets into something, it is your fault and not theirs. So if you must punish someone, punish yourself.


UH OH!!! This is a prime example of how a little misguided information can go horribly wrong . 

Sorry for this, but it seems ( with a select few) that the popular trend here is to first chastise the person asking the question, and then they MIGHT offer a word of advice, though 9/10 they tell you to take the pup to the vet.

Q:"Help, my puppy barks at strangers!"
A: "Hmmm, have you visited the vet lately?"

Q: "My puppy pee'd in his crate last night!"
A: "Sounds like he needs to go to the vet."

Q: "My puppy keeps pulling on his leash!"
A: "I bet a trip to the vet will correct that problem"

Q: "My puppy is sooo cute, he just sits next to me a wangs his tail"
A: "Thats not cute, it's serious! VET TIME!!!"

Pardon the sarcasm, but I find it happens more so than not.

Anyways, you're on the right track! A dog trainer put things in prospective for me in regards to housetraining. What he said was:

"If a puppy can remember which pocket you hide his treats in, then he can remember the fact that he pooped on the carpet. If a puppy can remember that "Come" means to come to his owner, than he can remember that he pee'd on the floor. If he can remember where his "Spot" is in the yard, than he can remember that doing his business inside the house is NOT allowed".

Hope this helps you out with your new pup!!!


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## cascabel (Sep 25, 2007)

No one even mentioned anything about a vet, so you might want to re-examine which thread you are reading. 



Stitch said:


> "If a puppy can remember which pocket you hide his treats in, then he can remember the fact that he pooped on the carpet. If a puppy can remember that "Come" means to come to his owner, than he can remember that he pee'd on the floor. If he can remember where his "Spot" is in the yard, than he can remember that doing his business inside the house is NOT allowed".


I'm not arguing that dogs can't remember things. A dog can certainly remember not to go in the house....evidenced by the fact that my dog is reliably houstrained. 

What I am arguing is that punishment is not the best way to teach a dog. Punishment does not produce reliable results. 

So while your pup *may* remember that he peed on the floor, your punishing him for it will not necessarily produce the desired result.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Stitch said:


> Sorry for this, but it seems ( with a select few) that the popular trend here is to first chastise the person asking the question, and then they MIGHT offer a word of advice, though 9/10 they tell you to take the pup to the vet.
> 
> Q:"Help, my puppy barks at strangers!"
> A: "Hmmm, have you visited the vet lately?"
> ...


Okay, aside from the whole gross exaggeration for dramatic effect, there is a reason that people here often recommend going to the vet. The nature of the questions asked on this forum is such that people here can offer their advice or their theories, but there's no way they can tell for sure without knowing the dog and witnessing the behavior. Often it is possible that there is an underlying condition which would cause the problem, but only a vet or a very knowledgeable and observant owner could tell for sure (depending on the condition). Depending on the situation, it's either a safety precaution, or it's the same as advising a particular training technique: it's just another approach to the problem, and in many cases the OP can take it or leave it. 

The exceptions of course are emergencies, where people should be calling their vet or E-vet right then, not wasting time posting on internet forums.

Sorry for the little rant, but I've seen several snarky posts about this now, and its getting a bit annoying so I figured I might as well address it.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

You have exactly 5 seconds to 'disrupt' a behavior in progress. 

If you see the pup start to relieve him/herself, make a loud noise to disrupt then get the pup outside IMMEADIATLY. DO NOT punish as this will create fear. As soon as the pups butt comes off the ground HAVE A PARTY with LOTS of treats. This will create a POSITIVE association with relieving outside, with NO negative associations to you. 

if you see the pup chew, again make a loud noise to disrupt (a can of pennies works well) move the pup away from the object being chewed and redirect to an appropriate object (stuffed kongs work great). Spray the object you DON'T want chewed with a product such as FOOEY. Be sure the contain pup when you can't watch for safety and sanity reasons (the pups safety and YOUR sanity). Remember that pups NEED to chew, so provide plenty of strong, durable chew toys, again, kongs are great.


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## prolibertate (Nov 7, 2007)

Harmonybear said:


> I try that with Luna, and it works _most_ of the time. But when she's really worked up and biting/chewing everything in sight (usually around 8pm every night), none of the normal things work. She just thinks the clapping is a game, or something. Saying "drop it" doesn't work either, even though she'll drop it nearly always when she's not so hyper. ...
> 
> This dog doesn't seem to have shame. I think we're doing a very good job of being consistent in correcting her bad behavior (we've been following The Bark Stops Here ever since we got her - but she seems to have gotten rougher instead of gentler), but for some reason it doesn't seem to be getting through to her that she's being bad. I say "drop it" or "no" and clap my hands, and her tail just keeps wagging, like it's only a game. This is true whether or not she obeys me. I feel like I'm going to have to do something to get her to realize that we don't approve of her biting. Any suggestions?


If Luna gets a bit hyper around 8 every night, take her for a nice walk before that time, or play a rousing game of fetch with her. It sounds like she simply has some extra energy and needs to burn it off. And when she's excited, unless she's super reliable at what she's been trained to and reliable with distractions, it will be hard for her to obey what you're telling her; she's being an excited dog and probably thinks what you're doing is just playing with her.

Try using clicker training with her. I've found it works great and pretty quickly. Check out the link below for some good books and articles on how to do it. Any dog training takes times, effort, patience and consistency; training dogs doesn't result in a 'quick fix' but clicker training sure does work quicker than any other method I've ever seen or used.

http://www.clickertraining.com/




Stitch said:


> UH OH!!! This is a prime example of how a little misguided information can go horribly wrong .
> Sorry for this, but it seems ( with a select few) that the popular trend here is to first chastise the person asking the question, and then they MIGHT offer a word of advice, though 9/10 they tell you to take the pup to the vet.
> 
> Q:"Help, my puppy barks at strangers!"
> ...


Many times a dog has accidents either because they're not reliably trained yet or they may have a UTI, or other medical reason for uncontrolled pottying (this may be the case especially in a dog that was reliably trained previously). it always pays to have a dog checked over if something new is happening, such as forgetting their potty training. This is generally not the case with puppies, or dogs who were never reliably potty trained. 

And frankly, when training a dog to go potty where you want them to, if they have an accident, it is their humans fault - not the dogs. The human is doing the training; either they weren't paying attention to the dogs signals that he had to do, they weren't watching the dog, or they thought - too soon - that the dog was reliably potty trained. some people think they can do this in a week or a month; it usually takes till a puppy is about 6 months for them to be reliable when it comes to potty training. 

Most dogs don't want to have an accident; they want to go to their potty area, and while they may remember that, if their human isn't there or isn't paying attention to them, or doesn't feel like taking them outside right then, and as dogs don't always have a way to get outside by themself, then they're going to have an accident. Until dogs can learn to open doorknobs on their pen, their humans have to make it possible for them to get to where they're supposed to potty - whether that means putting in a doggy door for free/whenever access, or being there to let/take them outside and taking them when they *have* to go.

A dog knows what pocket you have treats in because he can smell them, not because he remembers where you put them. I know this because I rarely have them in my pocket; I use a treat bag. Yet lately when I've been training him to 'leave it' I wanted him to not know I had treats (he behaves perfectly if he sees the clicker and treats, lol), so I didn't use the bag, I put them in my sweater pocket...and even though I had never done this before and he wasn't in the room when I did it, he zeroed right in on my pocket when I walked into the room every time.

A dog will also answer to 'come' if he's been taught that coming when called means great things for him - treats, play, praise, pets, etc. Most people who catch their dog having an accident, or after he's had one, get angry, may make some comments in a not-so-nice voice, push the dogs face in it, etc. A dog learns that if there's poop on the floor that means his owner is angry and the dog does not want to be around them. He may realize that he's the one that pooped, but he's not connecting it with why his owner is angry (especially when the owner tells him 'good potty' when he does this at other times). 

If he looks 'guilty' he's actually feeling fearful because his human is not in a good mood and may take it out on him; he's learned to fear his human. He doesn't relate it to the fact that 'ooops, I pooped and now my humans mad'. He probably wanted to go to his spot but couldn't get to it (no opposable thumbs for those doorknobs). Also, expecting a dog to hold it for 8-12 hours is pretty silly, IMO; would any person expect another person to hold it that long? I doubt it...so why do we expect our dogs to do so? Not for nothing, but babies can take 2+ years to learn to potty without a diaper, and some people can't handle it if it takes their puppy a couple of months to learn. I'd much rather potty train a dog


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Stitch said:


> "If a puppy can remember which pocket you hide his treats in, then he can remember the fact that he pooped on the carpet. If a puppy can remember that "Come" means to come to his owner, than he can remember that he pee'd on the floor. If he can remember where his "Spot" is in the yard, than he can remember that doing his business inside the house is NOT allowed".
> 
> Hope this helps you out with your new pup!!!


My problem with this is....sure he can remember that that pile or puddle on the floor is what he made. But when he gets punished for it he isn't thinking "Oh I shouldn't have peed in the house, that was wrong", he is thinking "Oh I shouldnt pee, pee is bad".

My cat peed on my bed the other day. When I found out I didnt rub her nose in it or show it to her and then put her in the litter box. I didnt do anything to her, I didnt catch her in the act, so I couldnt grab her and put her in the litter box. She did it because I needed to change her litter box, it was too dirty for her.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Stitch said:


> than he can remember that doing his business inside the house is NOT allowed".


If you assign a moral judgment on the dog's part, this would be true. However, what I know of dogs is that they are 1) amoral, and 2) innocently selfish. So, it's not that the dog remember peeing inside is not allowed, he only knows that peeing outside yields the highest reward. Franky, that IS the beauty of dogs.



cascabel said:


> What I am arguing is that punishment is not the best way to teach a dog. Punishment does not produce reliable results.
> 
> So while your pup *may* remember that he peed on the floor, your punishing him for it will not necessarily produce the desired result.


I'd like to add to your comments because this is very much how I feel about punishment. When you say punishment does not produce reliable results, to me this says punishments are difficult to size up to the crime, thus, they are often not punishing. And if they are punishing, the variability of the behavior that follows the punishment is often so wide, that it rarely produces the desired results...not to mention the classical conditioning fallout that may also result.

This to me screams for punishments to be instructive. Dog is peeing on floor, the instructive reprimand is "OUTSIDE!" While sweeping the dog off the floor and taking him outside. And if the dog has already peed, and you missed it, yes, I find a wall to bang my head on...I control when the dog goes outside, and I waited too long. Or, if it happens more frequently than our schedule, a call to the vet IS in order.


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## Priss and Pedro's Mama (Nov 4, 2007)

Harmonybear said:


> I try that with Luna, and it works _most_ of the time. But when she's really worked up and biting/chewing everything in sight (usually around 8pm every night), none of the normal things work. She just thinks the clapping is a game, or something.


Pedro does this too...oddly at about the same time of night. Weird. What works for us is if I physically restrain him (not an alpha roll, nothing aggressive or angry about it I simply hold him firmly and talk in a normal conversation tone to the other animals/anyone else in the room) until he calms himself. Usually then he is ready for a nap. I honestly think he's ready for a nap when he starts in and have been putting him in his crate for a nap about 7:30 each night. It also seems to be helping. The behavior, IMO, is much like an over stimulated and over tired child. Getting them still and calm for a few minutes stops the frenzy and allows them to sleep.


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## Harmonybear (Oct 24, 2007)

MegaMuttMom said:


> Harmonybear, I don't think your goal should be to have your dog feel guilt or shame. You can teach what is right without instilling that. Like it is with kids, *I believe it is always better to teach that what you did is what I don't like, it's not that I don't like you.* The more you scold, the more that message gets confused.


MegaMuttMom, I really do hope I'm not teaching her that I don't like her - that wasn't my intention at _*all*_! I just want her to get that first part - that she's doing something I don't like. She just doesn't seem to understand that. That's what I meant by shame. She doesn't understand that something is wrong; she doesn't understand that I don't want her to do it. When I try to correct her, she feels it's a game - and in the game, she doesn't have to listen to me. If I say "ouch!" or "no", she starts barking and biting again, harder this time, as if my correction has just spurred her on.



> All it has taken with my dog is a firm ah-ah or a no and he backs off whatever he was doing. I then praise him for listening to me. *As long as the behavior stops, isn't that enough?*


We are doing all of that (including ample praise when she stops) - but _the behavior isn't stopping_. In fact, it's getting worse. Hopefully it's just a temporary thing, and it will go away if we continue to be consistent in our training. If not... I suppose we'll just have to try something else. 


ETA: *prolibertate* and *Priss and Pedro's Mama*:
I definitely thing it's some sort of combination between the two. It's like she wants to get out that last bit of energy right before she collapses for the night. It's actually very cute, except when she decides that our feet are the only acceptable chew toy.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

cascabel said:


> I can't help but laugh when people use the excuse that 'the mother dog does it'.  Do they really think that dogs view as as other dogs? The answer to that is clearly no and is why I think trying to mimic the behavior of a mother dog is ridiculous.


i don't believe for a minute that dogs view us as another dog....they're smarter than that......but, they do respond best to any type of correction that is not foreign to their species....they bite to let something else (dog, human, whatever) know that they don't like the behavior being delivered....a "bite" (by this i mean a hold/slight shake of the scruff, a "poke" to the neck, etc) to them for doing something wrong is what they understand, not a hit, not a pick up and remove from the area, not any of the things that used to be considered the way to train (firm, strong, dominate)......

but, along the note of them not remembering what they had done while you were not there.....if you go into a (say 3 yr old) childs room 2 hrs after they have drawn on the wall and see it, do you believe that the child will have forgotten having done it?...they remember.....they may not realize the first time that it was wrong, but you "sternly" tell the child that it (the behavior) is "naughty", take their crayons away, maybe have them clean it off, etc., and the next time they do it, they try to hide it b/c they know that "it is naughty" and they will get scolded again....same w/ a puppy....the first time, they don't know that they did wrong, the second time they may not quite understand it either, but usually by the 3rd/4th time they are getting the drift
that "mom"/"dad" is displeased w/ this behavior......i'm not saying that a pup needs to have their nose rubbed into the mess they made, or that the adult dog needs to be put into an alpha roll (altho, i will put a dog on it's side if the need is necessary) to "establish your dominance"......but a correction is necessary at times and one they understand works the best (the scruff shake, the "bite", the "growl", etc).....mine usually get a "talking to", as they are at the same age as an older child and don't really need much more....sometimes a "grounding" works, also......i raise my dogs as i did my kids.........



cascabel said:


> What I am arguing is that punishment is not the best way to teach a dog. Punishment does not produce reliable results.
> 
> So while your pup *may* remember that he peed on the floor, your punishing him for it will not necessarily produce the desired result.


agreed....._punishment_ never gets anywhere but a pup/dog that is afraid....._discipline_, however, is a very necessary thing.....any parent can tell you that.....


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

tirluc said:


> but, along the note of them not remembering what they had done while you were not there.....if you go into a (say 3 yr old) childs room 2 hrs after they have drawn on the wall and see it, do you believe that the child will have forgotten having done it?...they remember.....they may not realize the first time that it was wrong, but you "sternly" tell the child that it (the behavior) is "naughty", take their crayons away, maybe have them clean it off, etc., and the next time they do it, they try to hide it b/c they know that "it is naughty" and they will get scolded again....same w/ a puppy....the first time, they don't know that they did wrong, the second time they may not quite understand it either, but usually by the 3rd/4th time they are getting the drift


But you can explain to a child that "No, drawing on the wall is bad, that is not allowed." They learn that their crayons were taken away because they drew on the wall. When you try to apply the same to a dog you are assuming they understand exactly what you are saying, when in reality they could be interpreting any of several ways. Chances are if you grab your dog by the scruff and show them the mess they made, and say "No, making messes is bad, that is not allowed," The most they are going to get out of it that your upset, and that they are in trouble...they may figure out it has something to do with the mess, but whether you are mad about the mess or about them making the mess...you don't know. Only correcting when you catch them in the act helps avoid the potential confusion. Will some dogs get it? Maybe. But more likely than not you're just confusing the issue.

Or, as Far Side would more eloquently put it:


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## jrene8 (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks for the advice! 

I think using the newspaper is a good ideal. Also Im gonna look into training classes too! I think Petsmart does them. I do us her create a lot. If she doesn' potty when I take her out I put her back in her bed and try again in 15 to 20 mins. Wish me luck! lol...

I know that patience is key and Im glad I have a ton. I forgot how hard training a puppy was. Its been 9+ yrs since I've had one. 

Thanks so much. I wish there were more dog owners like us in the world!


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Shaina....so, what you're saying is that, my dog, after having chewed 2 seatbelts in my van b/c she was frustrated while i was goosing w/ one of the other dogs, has absolutely no idea of what i am saying to her so that when i leave the van now under the same circumstances, and have told her b/4 leaving that she had better not chew on the other seatbelts (and showing her the seat belt) and come back to the van w/ her sitting in the seat and the seat belt is not even touched, that it is all pure coincedence.....or, when a friend leaves for work he says to his dogs (after they had chewed his sofa and some baseboard) "NO CHEWING" and he has come home to  nothing chewed , but the 2 times he has said nothing, they chewed his sofa, again......or the time i told one of my dogs they couldn't have anymore rawhides until the one i had given him 5 days earlier was gone and the next night he got a new one b/c he chewed the other up the night b/4 (finally).....or others that are just too many to put here....

you see, unlike about 90% of the population, i believe that dogs are smarter and understand alot more than mankind, in his infinite wisdom that we are the "superior" being, gives them credit for......they're not as think as you dumb they are......but then, maybe i'm just used to Border Collies.....


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## rubyjewel (Nov 15, 2007)

tirluc said:


> sorry, i disagree....even a mother dog will discipline (notice i didn't say "punish") her pups......when i am raising/training a new puppy, and they do something wrong a sharp, quick "Uhhh, uhhh" is enuff to get their attention (same as a growl from mom) and if necessary a shake of the scruff of the neck (nothing harsh, you're not looking to hurt the pup) (again, same as Mom)......for pottying on the floor, i show them the spot, tell them gruffly "No, naughty" (maybe a few more words) and take them outside....as soon as the potty outside, i practically throw a party.....all my dogs have been house trained inside of 2 wks......i also use "umbilical cording" for house training so that i can catch them b/4 they have a chance to potty, this way they get more positive and very little negative......w/ all my Borders, i have "talks" w/ them when the do something wrong.....for them, it seems to work.....
> 
> there is nothing wrong w/ disciplining any child if you want them to grow up well established adult citizens (and that goes for dogs as well as human kids)....and, no, it is not always the persons fault when the pup/dog does something wrong......you can't be there 24/7 to make sure that they don't get into mischief.....all you can do is try to make sure that things are in order so that nothing _should_ happen......but puppies do need to be supervised or confined till they know the rules (pretty much for the first yr)....


You hit the nail on the head with this!!! I could not have said it better myself, you said it all and so true!!!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

tirluc said:


> Shaina....so, what you're saying is that, my dog, after having chewed 2 seatbelts in my van b/c she was frustrated while i was goosing w/ one of the other dogs, has absolutely no idea of what i am saying to her so that when i leave the van now under the same circumstances, and have told her b/4 leaving that she had better not chew on the other seatbelts (and showing her the seat belt) and come back to the van w/ her sitting in the seat and the seat belt is not even touched, that it is all pure coincedence.....


Actually, you may have taught your dog to stress out when you're upset, therefore, chewing on the seat belt and draining energy isn't paramount over the stress of your lecture. All the dog knows is your upset and she's being punished. Perhaps the lecture is more punishing to your dog than isolating her in the van is. Haven't you ever had a parent yell at you, and not know what to do or say next? I know, I know, you were a perfect angel.  You can assign a morality to your dog, but IMO, you'd miss the true essence of your dog if you did. 



> or, when a friend leaves for work he says to his dogs (after they had chewed his sofa and some baseboard) "NO CHEWING" and he has come home to  nothing chewed , but the 2 times he has said nothing, they chewed his sofa, again......or the time i told one of my dogs they couldn't have anymore rawhides until the one i had given him 5 days earlier was gone and the next night he got a new one b/c he chewed the other up the night b/4 (finally).....or others that are just too many to put here....


You'd have to answer the question, how was the dog punished before? Are the dog's needs being met one day, but not the next? What has the owner done to remedy the situation? Is NILIF being practiced in the home? Does the owner practice impulse control? It's not sufficient, IMO, to attribute one practice within a training protocol as the reason for the success. That would be like saying bird fly because they have wings...tell that to a chicken with a straight face. 



> you see, unlike about 90% of the population, i believe that dogs are smarter and understand alot more than mankind, in his infinite wisdom that we are the "superior" being, gives them credit for......they're not as think as you dumb they are......but then, maybe i'm just used to Border Collies.....


This is for certain...dogs understand dogkind way better than we ever will. In this sense, yes, they do know more than us. However, you can't compare a dog's intelligence, with human intelligence. Not because we are in some way superior, we're not...we are made of genes just like dogs are, but they are organized differently, and thus aren't comparable. Just like you can't compare your BC's intelligence with a greyhounds. Your dog may stalk a sheep better than a greyhound, but she sure can't run after one faster. Intelligence isn't measurable if you understand that each being is different in what they are capable of learning. As much as a border collie is capable of running fast, they'll never be as fast as a greyhound.


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## banjosteve (Nov 27, 2007)

Personally, I have 4 Jindos. I started with one(male) and then adopted an abused male and female. The female was pregnant(although the vet swore she wasn't) and I kept the only male out of the litter mostly because he was the runt. Its been about a year with all 4 together and I've had my share of fights to break up and they all have their own problems. The puppy can't hold it, the adopted male marks, the female doesn't care and goes in the house and the original one is wicked aggresive. After floundering for a few months, I began to noticed looks and noises that they use with each other. It took some time, but I learned the noises and looks they give each other (pack order goes adopted male, adopted female, original male, puppy) and I mimick them now. I tried the whole positive re-enforcement thing and the scolding thing and the punishing thing, and I found that I can actually control all four through looks and a handful of growling noises (each one is different). 

Not sure if this helps as Jindos are an odd breed, but getting into their mind and understanding them really helps.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Actually, you may have taught your dog to stress out when you're upset, therefore, chewing on the seat belt and draining energy isn't paramount over the stress of your lecture. All the dog knows is your upset and she's being punished. Perhaps the lecture is more punishing to your dog than isolating her in the van is. Haven't you ever had a parent yell at you, and not know what to do or say next? I know, I know, you were a perfect angel.  You can assign a morality to your dog, but IMO, you'd miss the true essence of your dog if you did.


ahhh, but you see? there is no "stress" or "upset" involved.....i simply take the seat belt, show it to her and say, in a calm but stern manner "no chewing" (notice i didn't use capitals to say that i yelled at her).....i have done this w/ every one of my dogs w/ various things thru/out the yrs and have had the same results......not to mention the fact that i have had people around that are not dog people watch the same "goings on" and comment on how much they listen/understand....





Curbside Prophet said:


> You'd have to answer the question, how was the dog punished before? Are the dog's needs being met one day, but not the next? What has the owner done to remedy the situation? Is NILIF being practiced in the home? Does the owner practice impulse control? It's not sufficient, IMO, to attribute one practice within a training protocol as the reason for the success. That would be like saying bird fly because they have wings...tell that to a chicken with a straight face.


the dog was shown what was done, verbally reprimanded, put in her crate the next day (after being shown/told again about the damage done) and then from there on out was given run of the house, w/ the reminders daily to not chew.....as for "impulse control", if you're talking about redirecting when Caoimhe does this (chews) when he's home no, as she doesn't chew on things when he's home.....i'm not attributing "one practice" as a reason for success--all the people that i do things w/ (there's a group of us that do things together w/ our dogs on a regular basis) have taken up the same practice w/ the same results when other methods weren't working..........and, you know what? chickens _can_ fly--not far, not high, but free range chickens that are given the opportunity to strengthen their wings daily can fly quite well......




Curbside Prophet said:


> This is for certain...dogs understand dogkind way better than we ever will. In this sense, yes, they do know more than us. However, you can't compare a dog's intelligence, with human intelligence. Not because we are in some way superior, we're not...we are made of genes just like dogs are, but they are organized differently, and thus aren't comparable. Just like you can't compare your BC's intelligence with a greyhounds. Your dog may stalk a sheep better than a greyhound, but she sure can't run after one faster. Intelligence isn't measurable if you understand that each being is different in what they are capable of learning. As much as a border collie is capable of running fast, they'll never be as fast as a greyhound.


i never said that a dog knows more or is smarter than a human, i do know that they're limited in their knowledge/learning......but i do believe that dogs know/understand a lot more than what we think they do.....and for the cartoon up above...how do we know that that is what a dog hears?....there are no tests that i know of that have been/can be done to determine what a dog understands of the human language.....and the fact that i _honestly_ believe that dogs understand, maybe that's why i do have the results i do w/ the way i train....to me, they are not _just a dog_ w/ limited abilities, they are much more....and intelligence has nothing to do w/ physical abilities....but, you can compare their intelligence in the fact that the Border Collie (and many other dogs that are in a position where they need to think...your working and herding dogs) are quicker to learn then your breeds that don't need it (the hounds)....so, you see, running fast has nothing to do w/ intelligence.....
nothing anyone can say will convince me that a dog doesn't have a higher intelligence/understanding then what we believe they have been given.....i've seen too many things to believe it...


oh, and just another "thought" on the matter of how much they understand....talking to my husband one day (and believing all the dogs were sleeping) i said (to him) that i was going to get my shoes so that i could go shopping then to the "one place" (around here, you don't dare say _park_, as i'm sure is true for just about anyone) and Lacey, _having followed the conversation,_ gets off the sofa and went and got my shoes.....i never asked her.....


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

tirluc said:


> ahhh, but you see? there is no "stress" or "upset" involved.


Anytime you engage your dog there is stress. All training situations are stressful for dogs. Whether or not the dog likes the training is a different question, and one none of us will ever be able to answer completely. And don't think for a minute that if you use certain words in punishing your dog, those words will not be a cue to stress out. I'm not saying this IS your case. I'm merely pointing out that it can be true that your dog's behaviors are respondent.



> and, you know what? chickens _can_ fly--not far, not high, but free range chickens that are given the opportunity to strengthen their wings daily can fly quite well......


I'd hardly call that flying, lol. 



> and intelligence has nothing to do w/ physical abilities....but, you can compare their intelligence in the fact that the Border Collie (and many other dogs that are in a position where they need to think...your working and herding dogs) are quicker to learn then your breeds that don't need it (the hounds)....so, you see, running fast has nothing to do w/ intelligence.....


My point was observed results have nothing to do with intelligence. What you're asserting is that the genetic configuration of the border collie enables the dog to learn quicker than say a hound. That's simply NOT true. Let me give you an example... Many people are familiar with the rat in the maze experiment, right? You place a rat in a maze, and you time how quickly the rat finds its way out. The rat that ran through the maze is the smarter rat, correct...just like your BC. So the slower rat, must be a slower learner...like the hound, correct? Wrong! These rats do not have different intelligence quotients. The maze bright rat just happens to be not as shy about wandering through the maze as the maze dumb rat. Shyness has nothing to do with intelligence, or how the animal learns. So although I understand your appreciation for the intelligence of your breed, your dog IS NOT smarter than mine, or the mutt down the street. What you observe is nothing more than the action of motor skills, which ARE physical abilities. Now if you're going to tell me you can see what's going on in your dog's mind...we need to talk further. 



> oh, and just another "thought" on the matter of how much they understand....talking to my husband one day (and believing all the dogs were sleeping) i said (to him) that i was going to get my shoes so that i could go shopping then to the "one place" (around here, you don't dare say _park_, as i'm sure is true for just about anyone) and Lacey, _having followed the conversation,_ gets off the sofa and went and got my shoes.....i never asked her.....


Again, what you're observing are innate motor patterns. One word can mean a sequence of events to your dog...that IS the beauty of dogs. Have you ever seen a dog try an bury a bone in your carpet. Does it make sense to us to bury a bone in carpet? Of course not. What you are observing is the program in your dog's head being executed...you don't know why it's being executed, you just know that it is. If it benefits your dog to call her intelligent, I say call her intelligent. But if you're saying your dog can learn better than others, I disagree.

Dr. Ray Coppinger would say...


> No breed is more or less intelligent in any general sense. They are all just different in what they are capable of learning. The innate motor patterns are the qualities of each dog that the trainer is shaping. And displaying innate motor patterns is what makes the dog feel good.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Bravo, CP. Wonderful input.


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## whimsy (Aug 19, 2007)

The only way to "discipline" a dog of that age is the way a bitch disciplines. And you should never use your hand to slap the dog, it creates a hand shy dog. If a dog is caught in the act, then by all means discipline, but 5 seconds after the fact a dog has forgotten what it did so all you do is stress the dog which in turn will cause more issues. If you come home to a chewed table leg and smack your dog, the only thing it will remember is to fear your return. A young pup should be crated when not supervised, crates are great for housebreaking, mine were all housebroken within a 2 week period also. 
The most effective training is the positive reinforcement way. Perhaps puppy socializing classes would help both of you also. Bg doses of patience is needed with pups...not always easy when we're extra tired...lol.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

alls i can say, folks, is that we have different views on the intelligence, training, and all around dealing w/ dogs.....i never have said nor will i say that my Border Collies are smarter than anyone elses dogs of any other breed(s)....i have owned and worked w/ many different breeds of dogs over the yrs and for most time of that have used my way of training w/ the same results whether it be a Beagle or a Border.....and b/c of this, i will always maintain my beliefs as they are......just as you are free to maintain yours......i see what i see and i know what i know.....and don't worry, even my closest friends sometimes think i'm about 5 cards shy of a full deck....but not where the dogs are concerned cuz they have also seen the results.....

do i believe i can tell what's going on in my dogs mind?....yeah, alot of the times i do.....and i do believe that they can "talk" to you...if only you will listen....


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## prolibertate (Nov 7, 2007)

tirluc said:


> i never said that a dog knows more or is smarter than a human, i do know that they're limited in their knowledge/learning......but i do believe that dogs know/understand a lot more than what we think they do.....and for the cartoon up above...how do we know that that is what a dog hears?....there are no tests that i know of that have been/can be done to determine what a dog understands of the human language.....and the fact that i _honestly_ believe that dogs understand, maybe that's why i do have the results i do w/ the way i train....to me, they are not _just a dog_ w/ limited abilities, they are much more....and intelligence has nothing to do w/ physical abilities....but, you can compare their intelligence in the fact that the Border Collie (and many other dogs that are in a position where they need to think...your working and herding dogs) are quicker to learn then your breeds that don't need it (the hounds)....so, you see, running fast has nothing to do w/ intelligence.....
> 
> oh, and just another "thought" on the matter of how much they understand....talking to my husband one day (and believing all the dogs were sleeping) i said (to him) that i was going to get my shoes so that i could go shopping then to the "one place" (around here, you don't dare say park, as i'm sure is true for just about anyone) and Lacey, having followed the conversation, gets off the sofa and went and got my shoes.....i never asked her.....


It's been shown in studies (such as the rat in the maze one that CP discussed, which I'm also familiar with) that dogs can learn in different ways, observation being one of them - along with association. A dog that hears the word shoe and sees their human getting their shoes could conceivably associate the two things...and if he also associates those shoes with him going for a walk, he may just go get those shoes thinking he'll also get a walk (it's kind of like when they go get their leash to 'tell' you they want a walk). Or the dog could have recognized that 'one place' has been substituted for 'park'. 

We had a Chihuahua who drank coffee (always with sugar and cream...I tried just cream, just sugar, and black, and he rubbed his whole nose and head across the ground like he smelled something that even a dog wouldn't find appealing). It got so bad you couldn't say the word 'coffee' or he'd drive you nuts till you gave him some. My father started to spell the word...and in a short while the dog had 'learned' to spell it also...not as we know spelling, but by the sounds of the words. I can teach my puppy to sit using the word 'book' and he'll sit every time I say book as long as that's the word I used when training him how to sit...They get the sound, they don't get the idea of what sit and book really mean, though they can associate things with words.

When it comes to dogs and intelligence, I believe dogs are much smarter than some people believe they are, and not so smart as some people think they are - of course, I think the same about humans  As for one dog being 'smarter' than another, well, I see that as meaning that a particular dog has learned more than another - not that they're born 'smarter'. Learning depends on how they were raised from birth, what they've been exposed to since then, how their brains developed, how they've been trained, etc....But dogs also appear to have inherent physical skills that cross all breed boundaries, and I believe that all dogs are born with the same capacity to learn as any other dog...it's only when they haven't been exposed to things to learn that one dog may 'seem' less smart than another, IMO.

CP, excellent posts once again...You're probably the only person I've ever agreed 100% with 100% of the time


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

prolibertate said:


> It's been shown in studies (such as the rat in the maze one that CP discussed, which I'm also familiar with) that dogs can learn in different ways, observation being one of them - along with association. A dog that hears the word shoe and sees their human getting their shoes could conceivably associate the two things...and if he also associates those shoes with him going for a walk, he may just go get those shoes thinking he'll also get a walk (it's kind of like when they go get their leash to 'tell' you they want a walk). Or the dog could have recognized that 'one place' has been substituted for 'park'.


yes, and to an extent i agree w/ this theory....but, just like the way i believe, it is just a theory.....no one has or can prove what or how much a dog understands......and did you know that people only hear the key words of a conversation, or read key words in a book, or see only key letters of a word and their brains "fill in" the rest.....sounds about the same to me.....



prolibertate said:


> We had a Chihuahua who drank coffee (always with sugar and cream...I tried just cream, just sugar, and black, and he rubbed his whole nose and head across the ground like he smelled something that even a dog wouldn't find appealing). It got so bad you couldn't say the word 'coffee' or he'd drive you nuts till you gave him some. My father started to spell the word...and in a short while the dog had 'learned' to spell it also...not as we know spelling, but by the sounds of the words. I can teach my puppy to sit using the word 'book' and he'll sit every time I say book as long as that's the word I used when training him how to sit...They get the sound, they don't get the idea of what sit and book really mean, though they can associate things with words.


and i have a dog that knows the spelling of 67 different toys....and she learns these spellings in 2 times of spelling and she remembers toys that i had put away and not used for 2 yrs....
as for the teaching a dog that "book" means "sit".....isn't that the same for a child?...if you were to take an infant into isolation and teach this child from the beginning that an apple was a potatoe, the sky was purple, the sun made things cold, etc., this is what that child would grow up believing....if all they learned was jibberish, this is all they would speak....at least until someone else came along and taught them differently.....



prolibertate said:


> When it comes to dogs and intelligence, I believe dogs are much smarter than some people believe they are, and not so smart as some people think they are - of course, I think the same about humans  As for one dog being 'smarter' than another, well, I see that as meaning that a particular dog has learned more than another - not that they're born 'smarter'. Learning depends on how they were raised from birth, what they've been exposed to since then, how their brains developed, how they've been trained, etc....But dogs also appear to have inherent physical skills that cross all breed boundaries, and I believe that all dogs are born with the same capacity to learn as any other dog...it's only when they haven't been exposed to things to learn that one dog may 'seem' less smart than another, IMO.
> 
> CP, excellent posts once again...You're probably the only person I've ever agreed 100% with 100% of the time


and i never said that one dog was smarter than the other....just that they learn at different rates as this is what has been developed in certain breeds....we had 2 Beagles once that people couldn't believe when they saw them....they were always walked  _off leash_ , they never left the yard w/out one of us w/ them and the would stay laying in the front yard unsupervised and unrestrained.....very _un-_Beagle-like, no?.....all from the way i raised them...w/ the belief that they can understand.....and this has been w/ my Borders, my Beagles, my GSD, my Sheltie, my AAM, my Collie/Samoyed mix, my terriers, etc, etc, etc......

so, you see, they all can learn the same things...some just take longer tham others (just like all the people i have dealt w/ thru-out the yrs)

oh, another thing.....my mom was always under the understanding that dogs don't understand beyond a few simple words either.....until all her kids were grown and gone and she started talking to her dog like she did the kids.....now, they are quite "indepth" to her....


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