# At wit's end with a 3.5 month old puppy



## gbkb (Aug 4, 2011)

Hey guys,

After almost half a year of anticipation, my girlfriend and I got a puppy. We've now had him for three days. He's probably half rottweiler (or rott mix), half hound/beagle/terrier? About 17 lbs.

This guy was really sweet when we adopted him. He was fostered at a trainer's house where he got to befriend other dogs and a cat. He's really charming when he meets people on the street, if a bit overly friendly. He likes to say hello to most dogs he meets on the street. We've taught him to pee at a pee pad in our apt (we live in NYC) and he generally does it with only mild misses.  He sleeps through the night in a crate in our bedroom. He is very responsive to food and is well on the way toward learning sit. He has a few toys he plays with - a kong, a cloth "bone", a tennis ball, and a little squeaky toy. He also likes ice cubes.

Unfortunately, he's picked up a nasty play biting habit that's gotten progressively worse over the past three days. At first he was just doing a little bit of nipping and grabbing at loose clothing and puppy pads. I guess he liked it because he started to hang on to items (socks, shorts, dresses, puppy pads) . His nipping has gotten worse as well and it hurts quite a bit - me and my girlfriend have bite marks all over our arms. It's gotten to the point where he tries to grab fingers or arms and pull. Occasionally he's even growled and barked.

We've tried several strategies. Ian Dunbar's suggestion of trying to say "ouch" whenever he bites too hard did not help. It's difficult to stop play because he just keeps nipping/biting. The one thing that semi-works is holding him under us in a sitting position with a hand holding his mouth shut, but I get the feeling that this is undermining our relationship with him and encouraging him to avoid us (except for food) rather than "play nice".

A professional trainer is coming to meet the pup tomorrow but I was wondering whether anyone has thoughts on how to deal with this situation. We would hate to give this little guy back but this situation is dispiriting.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Puppies are often mouthy and learning how to explore the world with their mouths. How old is he? If he was removed from his mother too early, he probably hasn't achieved the bite inhibition that puppies who stay with their mothers longer have.

Instead of just saying "ouch", you need to squeal in a high pitched voice, to startle him out of biting or nipping. 

Also, have a toy nearby, a stuffed animal or something similar. When he starts nipping at you, put the stuffed animal in his mouth. This will help him in realizing what is not acceptable to bite (your arms and hands) and what is (the toy). 

When he starts playing way too rough, it's time for puppy time out! What command do you use when you want him to stop doing something? With my dogs, I say "leave it". So if one starts playing too rough, I say "leave it", then say it again if they don't listen. If they still don't listen, I remove them from the situation by putting them in another room or crating them for 10 minutes or so. This separation will give him time to settle down and get out of the "I need to bite things!" attitude. It also makes him realize that when he doesn't listen to you, he doesn't get to continue having fun.

I'm glad to hear you guys are seeing a professional trainer, hopefully they will give you some helpful advice too


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

There's an excellent sticky about teaching bite inhibition in the training subforum.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

Yes I think the timeout works best. Not having his people is the biggest motivator... LOL I have a 70 lb dog that is still working on this --- oddly, she is better with my child that with me-- I am a big softie, my 8 yo daughter immediatley yells sit and puts her in her crate if she does not respond.


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## Fuzzybutts (Jul 21, 2011)

I totally agree with dmickle1. 
The secret of the "ouch" thing is to really yelp like a dog. My dog reacts much better when I do it than my boyfriend because (according to him) he cannot squeal that high.

And it goes without saying not to wrestle with him and curtail tug games for now as well.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

For Brady, I had to do more than yelp. I had to yelp, then really angrily stomp out of the room and SLAM the door all the while swearing...

of course I turned around 5 seconds later and resumed playing and loving on him. Brady, though, is not a "soft" dog. It didn't scare him. He just got the message. I wouldn't be so...uhm...loud around a "soft" dog if that makes sense. To this day, whenever I get P.O.ed and sorta loud, he will now run over plunk his head in my lap and be all like "i'm SOOORRY mommy I LOOOVE you mommy don't you want to PET and LOVE me mommy!"


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## HerdersForMe (Jul 26, 2011)

Fuzzybutts said:


> I totally agree with dmickle1.
> The secret of the "ouch" thing is to really yelp like a dog. My dog reacts much better when I do it than my boyfriend because (according to him) he cannot squeal that high.
> 
> And it goes without saying not to wrestle with him and curtail tug games for now as well.


Dog's actually learn bite inhibition naturally through wrestling with other dogs. You can effectively do the same thing by wrestling around with your pup. By allowing your dog to mouth on you it gives you opportunities to reinforce bite inhibition. Wrestle around with your dog so he is having fun. When he bites too hard you yelp, say OUCH or whatever and walk away. The pup learns when it bites it loses its playmate.


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## Julie260 (Jun 30, 2011)

I feel your pain. My puppy is just getting over this phase. My 28 lb. 3.5 month old would attack my legs biting and growling and barking and would bite me all the way to the back door when we were outside. The backs of my legs were bruised and cut terribly. I was depressed and at my wit's end. It seemed that no one really understood how bad it was until I showed them my legs and they would say "oh, wow. That's really bad." I was so incredibly frustrated. Just know you aren't alone, and this is not uncommon. I have found that the underlying cause is frustration. He's upset that you don't want to play and he doesn't know how bad he is hurting you. You are his play toy. He may also not be getting enough exercise.

Anyway here is a list of what I tried that DID NOT work (please keep in mind that I am not disregarding these methods as they are proven, but they just did not work for me)
1. Yelping - and I mean really loud; my puppy took this as an invitation to keep playing.
2. Saying NO
3. Ignoring (only because my issues were outside)
4. Being a tree - I couldn't be a tree because it hurt so bad

What has started working for me:
1. Ignoring when in the house and I can separate him from myself, either with a baby gate (this way he can actually see you ignoring him).
2. Keeping him leashed outside when we are playing. If he starts the behavior, I simply hold him out from me very calmly until the behavior subsides. If I am inside the house and he continues the behavior, I then tether him to a doorknob (in my sight) and give him a time out.
3. Not getting upset. The worst thing I did was keep turing around and telling him know. I would get frantic (I know it's hard not to), but I have learned to try my best to be calm.
4. Having plenty of yummy chew toys for him to play with.
5. Lots and lots of training - your dog may be bored, so get a book and train him to keep his brain busy.
6. SOCIALIZE SOCIALIZE SOCIALIZE - I saw an immediate difference in the strength of the bites when my puppy played with other dogs. He may be lacking bite inhibition which is very hard for humans to impart. The best way is for him to learn from other well behaved dogs. Find a local puppy social class (something monitored) and enroll in some training.
7. Keep the rough housing to a minimum. 
8. Spray bottle with water - before you hate, please read my disclaimer. Use this as a last resort.
***Disclaimer
I am not a trainer, but I am in puppy classes and working with a positive reinforcement trainer to fix these problems. SHE DID NOT SUGGEST THE WATER BOTTLE. These are just things that I have come up with from seeking advice. Many people will be angry at me for suggesting this, but I am just saying what works for me. This was a last resort and has only been used 2 times in three weeks but seems to get his attention. If I am playing with him and he gets out of hand, I get the water bottle and continue playing. If he gets out of hand again the second he bites or nips too hard, I spray and calmly say "no bite." I would then walk away and he would not follow. What it did was startle him enough to make him stop so I could really and truly ignore him. DO NOT USE THIS AS A CRUTCH FOR DISCIPLINE. THIS IS NOT A TOOL TO BE USED ALL THE TIME. In fact, it should rarely be used. The best thing you can do? Enroll in a puppy class!! They are fun and extremely helpful.

On a final word, it's great that you are getting professional help because they most likely can assess if this is aggression or just over-the-top puppy play. Hope this helps. Feel free to send me a personal message, as I truly, TRULY feel your pain and frustration.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Actually you're only using Dunbars firt step (saying ouch), but you need to YELP it and get away from him, back turned (put a barrier between you if needed) The object is the let him know he injured you and you don't want anything to do with him (for a few seconds at least) so you withdraw attention.


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

I'd also say that if you've only had the puppy for three days so far you can't really say the training isn't working, it takes time.


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## Shiningsummer (May 24, 2010)

dagwall said:


> I'd also say that if you've only had the puppy for three days so far you can't really say the training isn't working, it takes time.


Exactly. Time, patience and consistency is the key. When I brought Molly home, she was really bad with biting and nipping especially when we were playing. I would yelp, turn and ignore her when she did it but she would just keep biting at my legs from the back. It was so bad I cried more than once over it but I just kept at it. Fortunately she loves to play, so when she bit me I would stop the game right there and leave. She definitely didn't like that! I think it took several months, but now she's got the softest mouth you could hope for. Just hang in there and your dog will get the message!


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## dagwall (Mar 17, 2011)

Jubel was about 2 years old when I brought him home and he was VERY mouthy, he was inhibiting his bite but not enough for my likeing. It took months for me to train him that just coming up to me and mouthing my hands/feet was not acceptable and mouthing when we play was to be much softer than he was doing. 

I had the added challenge that my brother isn't exactly on the same page as me with what is too much. As a result Jubel has learned to be softer with me and rougher with my brother. At times my brother will see Jubel playing with me and comment how much nicer he is with me and I tell him it's all about what you allow them to get away with. If he had listened to me and stopped all play when Jubel got to rough he wouldn't feel as beat up as he does. 

It is possible for dogs to learn different levels of inhibition with different people but it does slow down the overall training.


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## iheartmarcus (Jul 27, 2011)

Hmmm, I actually have a question about bite inhibition. I have a 13 week old puppy who's been with me for 3 weeks. I started the bite inhibition, with him, but he was never all that mouthy to begin with. So instead of softening his bite as required by step 1 of the process, he basically jumped to not mouthing all together. When I try to trick him into mouthing me when hand feeding him, he will look at it and turn away until I flatten all of my fingers so he can lick up the treats. But the thing is, some times when I'm leash training him and feeding him treats while we walk, he chomps a little hard and I can feel slight pain in my fingers. Do you think that's just the puppy sharp teeth or is it too much jaw strength being used? If it is actually biting too hard, anyone has an idea for how to get him to mouth me??? He avoids it like the plague.


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## Julie260 (Jun 30, 2011)

iheartmarcus said:


> Hmmm, I actually have a question about bite inhibition. I have a 13 week old puppy who's been with me for 3 weeks. I started the bite inhibition, with him, but he was never all that mouthy to begin with. So instead of softening his bite as required by step 1 of the process, he basically jumped to not mouthing all together. When I try to trick him into mouthing me when hand feeding him, he will look at it and turn away until I flatten all of my fingers so he can lick up the treats. But the thing is, some times when I'm leash training him and feeding him treats while we walk, he chomps a little hard and I can feel slight pain in my fingers. Do you think that's just the puppy sharp teeth or is it too much jaw strength being used? If it is actually biting too hard, anyone has an idea for how to get him to mouth me??? He avoids it like the plague.


Prime time for bite inhibition is 4-8 weeks according to things I have read, and the puppies learn this from their mother and other siblings. It looks like you got your puppy at 10 weeks. Was he with his mother or other litter mates? If so, you don't need to teach it to him because it seems it has already been imprinted. IMO I think it's great that your puppy doesn't want to bite you. Don't trick him into doing it! Only teach if this situation comes up. That is puppy sharp teeth probably. It's hard at this time to always differentiate, but it can't hurt that if she/he touches your skin, yelp to let her know that her teeth should not meet your skin (however, when treating, this is difficult).


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

As mentioned before, look at the Sticky: The Bite Stops Here.

BTW, be careful about wrestling with a Rottie. There is absolutely no problem with doing that, if you know what you're in for, and put it under control, so that you can stop when desired. They love to tussle, but a 100 lb dog may be too much. Personally, I have no problem with Tug and wrestling, which is why I like big dogs....

Tweaks to The Bite Stops Here:
1. When the pup bites, then yelp. It should sound about like what the pup does when you step on its paw...don't step on his paw for a sample . When you yelp, the pup should startle briefly and stop nipping. Praise and pet. he'll bite.
2. When he bites the second time, Yelp. When he stops, praise and pet. he'll nip again, although it may be a little gentler. ...
3. When he bites a third time, Yelp (see a pattern?). But this time, turn your back for 15 - 30 secs. If he comes around and play bows or barks, then that is an apology. Accept it, praise and pet... and cringe in expectation of the next nip... [Accepting the apology is important]
4. When he bites the 4th time, Yelp, then leave the area, placing him in a 2 min. time-out. It is better if you can leave, rather than moving him. Then, return and interact. (he's still hungry...)
5. When he nips the fifth time, yelp, and leave the area, stopping interaction for now.

Pups need to sleep over night in order to learn their lessons. So, keep doing this for 3 days. By the third day, you should notice signficant Bite Inhibition. he may still nip, but it will be softer and he won't draw blood. Keep up the training and make sure that everyone yelps.... Very powerful method.

If you learn the technique, then you can apply the "yelp" to other circumstances, also. I believe that "yelp" is "Please don't do that, I don't like it." in dog communication. 

Try this for 3 days, and let us know on Monday what happened.


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## gbkb (Aug 4, 2011)

OK, here's an update on the trainer(s) and the dog.

EDIT: I apologize for attributing item B - the doorknob-leash thing - to trainer #1 - that was actually the foster mother's suggestion. Also, at trainer #1's request, I am glad to add her perspective on training the dog [in blue brackets].

Yesterday a professional trainer from this place came over and watched my girlfriend interact with the puppy. She said he definitely has the potential to be an aggressive dog [He was described as friendly but quite pushy, with terrible bite inhibition; I did mention that he has the potential to develop dog-dog issues, as he is stiff and uncomfortable with hackles up during on-leash greetings] - when held in a sitting position with a hand on his mouth, he calms down but doesn't display the submissive behavior a dog normally would. She thinks he has the potential to be a fun older dog, but will need serious behavioral training [We recommended basic, formal obedience training to give you a clear way to communicate with him and help him develop self-control and better frustration tolerance]. She recommended accelerating the socialization process, and said she can begin her intense behavioral problem and bring a "helper dog" that will correct our puppy when he misplays [The helper dog session was recommended to help build your pup's confidence and get him more comfortable around other dogs, while also getting appropriate feedback - continued play or fair correction - from puppy-savvy adult dogs about his play etiquette]. In the meanwhile, she recommends (A) keeping him on a leash at all times (B) putting the leash on a doorknob and ignoring him when he bites [THIS WAS NOT RECOMMENDED OR EVEN MENTIONED/BROUGHT UP] (C) giving a sharp tug when he bites [This is not normal puppy advice - generally yelping, time-outs and gentle restraint while gently holding the muzzle closed are very successful ways to stop puppy mouthing. Small leash corrections were given as an alternative for Quincy, with the clear stipulation that if you didn't see marked improvement in 24 hours, to stop the leash pops altogether and move on to formal obedience training, as that meant he simply needed a more structured approach to address the issue] and (D) if he's being really bad, lock him in the bathroom with the lights off [A brief time-out in the bathroom can be an effective negative consequence for socially-motivated pups - you lead him in calmly and deliberately without saying a word, close the door, then let him out ~60 seconds later]. She does not believe in food motivation [We regularly use food with puppies - a LOT with puppies! - and adult dogs to help aid socialization and behavior modification. We generally do not use food only for formal basic obedience training], though she was impressed by his ability to sit.

We also spoke to the trainer who fostered him before we adopted him. She was somewhat flabbergasted by the first trainer's suggestions, though she did agree that keeping a leash on him at all times was a good idea. She said he never exhibited these aggressive tendencies when he was at her place. She mentioned a few interesting facts. First, he, his mom and his brother played very roughly. Second, the fact that his pregnant mom was emaciated when she was rescued may be part of the reason he is aggressive.

We've tried putting his leash on the doorknob after he has a biting session - which certainly makes him much more manageable. But it's not clear that it's really working.

These are my conclusions after trying to play with him tonight: His behavior is pretty to very good in certain settings - he's not a bad walker for a puppy, he's very responsive to food, he likes to be stroked sometimes (and in these situations, he does mouth without biting). He's usually calm in the kitchen (he knows that's where food seems to come from). In the morning when he's taken out of the crate to pee he can be held and he's quite friendly (lots of licking). However, play sessions rapidly descent into aggressive (and somewhat scary - he growls) biting sessions - I have bloody cuts on my arm and knee. It's pretty much impossible to play with him.


Anyway, the foster trainer will come to check him out on Monday. We'll make a decision on his future after she meets him and sees his behavior.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Yeah, NOT a group I'd trust to evaluate a puppy that is exhibiting PUPPY behaviors as the training seems to be dominance based. I'd go here to find a trainer to evaluate the behavior http://iaabc.org/consultants and you should also find a good puppy-K to take him through.


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## minihart (Feb 14, 2011)

gbkb said:


> We would hate to give this little guy back but this situation is dispiriting.


You've had this pup for only a few days and you're already thinking about giving him up? Please take the great advice of everyone above when it comes to teaching him bite inhibition and acceptable behaviour. He may be difficult and extremely stressful, but remember that he's just a pup.

You will probably encounter more difficult situations throughout his puppyhood, and it takes consistent dedication and a positive attitude to get through it all. Keep your head up! It's amazingly worth it in the end.


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## Julie260 (Jun 30, 2011)

gbkb said:


> OK, here's an update on the trainer(s) and the dog.
> 
> However, play sessions rapidly descent into aggressive (and somewhat scary - he growls) biting sessions - I have bloody cuts on my arm and knee. It's pretty much impossible to play with him.


He sounds EXACTLY like mine. As I said earlier, a 30 lb. 3.5 month old puppy who has left permanent scars on my legs. Read my above post to see what I did. To be honest, he sounds like a perfectly normal puppy who is lacking only bite inhibition. As for playing with him, sometimes, any sort of play or excitement must be toned down. It takes time, and I understand how that is hard to think about when he is biting now and hurting and breaking skin. I have a three inch long slice on the back of my leg from mine. The bruising is just now going away and he is 4 months now. I'm not trying to show you up, I'm just trying to help you understand that this is a manageable situation (although it seems terrifying and hopeless). But it takes time. SOCIALIZE HIM. Get him around other dogs, enroll in classes, keep his brain busy.


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## gbkb (Aug 4, 2011)

We are taking him to puppy playgroup today at the local petco. Hopefully it will be a positive experience. (Until he gets his full vaccinations in 9 days, we can't take him to the local dog run.)

Unfortunately he seems to be spending most of his non-crate, non-walk time in time out with the leash on the doorknob. We've tried changing our high-pitched "ouch"s to "yips" and he seemed initially started but once he got used to it, it again got him more excited.

Will keep you guys updated. Thanks for all the advice.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Live by the mantra, "Teeth touch skin, fun ends" when he bites you get up, turn your back on him and if needed puta barrier so he can't follow you (baby gates work wonderfully) 

The main thing is tht you need to END play when he gets rough, everyone needs to live by the mantra "Teeth touch skin, fun ends" when he bites or his teeth touch YOU you need to get up, walk away and IGNORE him, put a barrier between you if needed to get the point across.

And work on these
http://www.dogforums.com/dog-training-forum/4915-rev-up-cool-down.html

Be a Tree


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## gbkb (Aug 4, 2011)

Booo... they didn't have their scheduled puppy playtime today. My girlfriend will try to take him to another playtime on Thursday.

We also got him a wonderful new chew toy - a really big textured plastic "bone". It's not as tasty as a human hand, but he likes it.


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## gbkb (Aug 4, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> Yeah, NOT a group I'd trust to evaluate a puppy that is exhibiting PUPPY behaviors as the training seems to be dominance based. I'd go here to find a trainer to evaluate the behavior http://iaabc.org/consultants and you should also find a good puppy-K to take him through.


Thanks Carla. My girlfriend had a conversation with the first lady on that list about 30 min ago. She agreed with you and the foster mom that the dominance-based trainer was a bad idea. She said his aggressive behavior is unusual this early after adoption into a new home since most puppies' personalities shut down for the first week in a new home and personality traits typically don't emerge this quickly. She also added that his behavior could be indicative of even worse problems when he ages - particularly since he has Jack Russell and rottweiler in his ancestry, and because his mother was undernourished. All puppies do this "to an extent", but it's the extent that separates a normal puppy from a future aggressive dog. She said that all the things you recommended are the absolute right path, and to await the foster mom's judgment on Monday.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Ok let me phrase this another way, your pup likes to play rough, that does NOT mean he's aggressive or will become that way, it means he plays rough and needs to be taught a different way.


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## gbkb (Aug 4, 2011)

All, clarifications to post #16 were added.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I agree with cshellenberger. Your pup is playing... but think high school football player. Rotties are strong, pushy, and need boundaries. I don't believe that the growling is aggressive, just enthusiastic play. When the foster mom comes, check out Post #15 again. You can say ouch rather than Yelping, but the point is to mark the unwanted biting, so that the pup understands what is causing you to stop playing... Don't hold his mouth closed... that's asking for trouble later on.


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## gbkb (Aug 4, 2011)

OK... but he shows no signs of stopping the biting... if anything he's getting more frustrated by the leash.

Assuming that this is a function of insufficient exercise - how much is OK to give this guy? I've been told puppies should not be allowed to run on-leash. I've taken him on over an hour of walks today but I don't know how much is healthy (I've read the rule of thumb of 5 minutes per month of age - he's way over that today). Is there any higher-intensity exercise he can do that won't threaten his health?


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## Sendiulino (Jun 20, 2011)

Know when puppies start to "calm down"? Maybe round about 2 years old  My point is, your pup is 3.5 months old. Don't expect the biting to be gone tomorrow, or next month, or even in 6 months.

Sam is a mouthy player. She bites and she growls. She's just a tiny little thing but if she were a bigger dog, it could easily be misconstrued as aggression. Sam however does not have one ounce of aggression in her fluffy little body.

We went through the whole "the bite stops here" ideology and none of it worked for us.. so we've had to come up with creative ways of our own to curb the issues. I've discovered that internet advice goes only so far as the dog or dogs that ONE person has worked with the most. Which is great, don't get me wrong.. but my point is: your relationship with your dog is going to be unique. You gotta figure out what works for you, and just keep at it. Consistency is key and always will be, and patience right along with it.

The "5 minutes per month of age" rule is a good one but I find in the larger, stronger, more intense breeds, it really comes down to once again "what works for you". Obviously if the dog needs more exercise than that, then by all means, exercise the dog! Don't worry about breaking the "rules", just worry about what works for your dog. 

The idea behind the limited exercise for puppies is just that young dogs still have developing growth-plates and "too much exercise" could lead to problems until round about the 1-year point when the growth plates firm up... but what constitutes as "too much" for any one dog is definitely not something that can be summed up with a blanket-statement of "5 minutes per month of age". That's like when they say a dog can hold its bladder for "1 hour per month of age", but at 4 months of age my dog was no where near that. She's a small dog with a small bladder so things change from the median. 

My best piece of advice to you is to relax. I know that's hard when you have a dog gnawing on your hand, but dogs respond most to confidence and calm energy more than anything. If you're freaking out and confused, the dog is not going to know who to look to for direction. 

Relax and try to enjoy your dog, and while you're doing that, try different things you research and implement them to see if it helps the behavior curb at all... but ultimately, remember that the dog is YOUNG. Very young. And that your puppy is just being a puppy at the end of the day.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

To the OP...
My Rottie Pup is 5 months old and 50 lbs..
The mouthing and biting is all 100% Play..
It can get really rough .. but Never to the point of real aggression!!

Thats the important thing to observe..is your dog attacking you aggressively ..or is it just playing too rough.

The "Ouch" and "Yelp" idea is not what I use. That just takes you down a notch in the Doggie Empire. 
You are supposed to be the leader of the pack..and "ouching" and "yelping" just aint leadership qualities.(In my personal opinion..)

You gotta have commands that your dog understands.

Heres what I do..

When my dog is calm , relaxed , lying next to me and is being petted.
I repeat a phrase over and over...
So now she associates those words with being calm.

and..

When I want her to play and be crazy I say another phrase..
and repeat that phrase over and over during play.
So now she associates those words with playing.

Then instigate play using the play phrase...
Then tone it down using the calm phrase..
over and over...

It works on every dog Ive ever had.


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## dmickle1 (Jun 19, 2011)

Roloni said:


> To the OP...
> My Rottie Pup is 5 months old and 50 lbs..
> The mouthing and biting is all 100% Play..
> It can get really rough .. but Never to the point of real aggression!!
> ...


My emphasis. There's no such thing as the "Doggie Empire". You're never going to be the "leader of the pack" because domesticated dogs do NOT use pack mentality. It's been disproven by science, trainers and behaviorists. 

Ouching and yelping IS language that your dog understands. How do you think he learns how to play with his litter mates? They yelp when they're bitten too hard, that's how. 

Don't try to assert your "dominance" over your dog, please. It's simply going to harm your relationship with your puppy in the long run.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Oh boy, there is no doggie empire, the ouch or yelp is how LITTERMATES let each other know when th play is too rough, that will then disassociate with the pup that is being too rough. 

OP, work on the rev up/cool down exercise I linked, it will do far more totrain your dog on when to be calm.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

I really wanna see a video of you guys "Ouching" and "Yelping"....
Hey whater works!!!


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

The yelp or ouch is not what teaches the pup, it's a marker for 'you hurt me', what teaches the pup is withdrawing the attention, ending the play immediately. You would then need to train the pup to calm down, thus the exercise I posted earlier in the thread. If you're going to criticize a technique you should understand how it works first.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

Roloni said:


> I really wanna see a video of you guys "Ouching" and "Yelping"....
> Hey whater works!!!


Are you really scoffing at a proven way of teaching bite inhibition when you believe dogs have a ranking system in an "empire" of sorts?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> Are you really scoffing at a proven way of teaching bite inhibition when you believe dogs have a ranking system in an "empire" of sorts?



Yeah, if they did we all know Chihuahuas would be the ruling class.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

cshellenberger said:


> Yeah, if they did we all know Chihuahuas would be the ruling class.


Smalls would be in the charge of the lot.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

cshellenberger said:


> The yelp or ouch is not what teaches the pup, it's a marker for 'you hurt me', what teaches the pup is withdrawing the attention, ending the play immediately. You would then need to train the pup to calm down, thus the exercise I posted earlier in the thread. If you're going to criticize a technique you should understand how it works first.


I understand exactly how the technique works..
and it does work..
What Im saying is ..I dont use it.

Thats not how I train my puppies to stop biting or rough housing.
What I do ...works for me.
Its very much the same idea. My pups understand the calm command words..and the play command words.

And I do belive that domestic dogs have a pecking order...or a doggie empire


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

What you do works for you, what we are talling the OP to do has worked for thousands, is proven operent conditioning and Counter conditioning and is based on basic psychology, not "pack theory" that has been disproven for 20+ years.


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## mbowman (Jul 31, 2011)

I believe that many types of training can work, and clearly there are some types of training that work for some dogs and not others, as all dogs are different. The key is to be consistent, and pay attention to what works and what doesn't. Don't try 3 things at once; try one thing for 3 days, and if it doesn't work, try something else. We worked with a trainer in our puppy classes who used all tools--treats, spray bottles, mild physicality/dominance, verbal commands, praise, leash corrections, the works. We taught our puppy not to bite by using a combination of the spray bottle, the "off" command, and a scruff or firm but gentle nose grab and were extremely successful. I'm not saying this is the "right" way, but it did work for us. We've continued to use the full-spectrum approach, and our dog (who is a lab and quite mouthy) does not use his teeth on our skin (occasionally when he's playing with another dog and we're sitting in close vicinity we'll get the occasional mouthing, but he immediately backs off when we remind him with a stern-sounding "off").


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

mbowman said:


> I believe that many types of training can work, and clearly there are some types of training that work for some dogs and not others, as all dogs are different. The key is to be consistent, and pay attention to what works and what doesn't.


I absolutely agree with you on this!!!! depends on the dog, and might I add, it also depends largely on the owner/trainer IMO. 
To the OP, 3.5 months.....get used to it. We didn't have a breakthrough with Caeda until about 5 months! Her biting turned slowly to mouthing during that time, but a little while ago the lightbulb absolutely went on and she got it! There is of course a BIG BUT...too hyper/overstimulated=nipping harder, hurt or irritated (teething!) = nipping harder. She wants to tell us something hurts and that seems to be the only way she can tell us. It takes a long time and at first, yes it is hard to tell it from aggression. I have scars too, and still get some blood drawn occasionally. It will come, but not as fast as I'm sure you would like. I've heard Rotties came from the Swissy line (though I may have heard wrong), and if they are alike at all you're looking at a smart, but stubborn dog, not sweet simple and malleable. Work on it, give it time and it will be very worth it!


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## JuneBud (Feb 17, 2010)

After a full year of bite inhibition training my 14-1/2 month old is getting the hang of it. At least 3/4 of the time now he will just put his mouth on a hand and apply no pressure at all. And 1/4 of the time he will use a tiny bit of pressure but never hurts. He only gets corrected if he uses pressure. He's a hard puppy and his play is rough, thus it took a long time to get him to this point. There are times when he will get frustrated and will wrinkle his nose and show me his teeth, but I've learned this is just his way of showing frustration when he wants to play. It's not a vicious thing at all. I found that it was extremely helpful to play games with him where he could use his teeth - like playing tug - because he wanted very, very badly to use his teeth. I have spent a small fortune on chewable toys. Every puppy is an individual and if you don't have a lot of experience with dogs, you need someone who can help you understand your puppy's signals. Some puppies are easy and some are hard, but they can all turn into great dogs with time and patience. Until recently, my dog has had a very fresh attitude, but now he has has begun to soften considerably. Patience, consistency.


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## Cheeky (Aug 23, 2011)

gbkb said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> After almost half a year of anticipation, my girlfriend and I got a puppy. We've now had him for three days. He's probably half rottweiler (or rott mix), half hound/beagle/terrier? About 17 lbs.
> 
> ...


wow, it has only been 3 days?!!! all of the behaviour you describe is typical puppy behaviour.... you need some patience. your lack of patience is only gonna make the puppy sense it and get worse, that's probably why the biting is getting worse. 

remember, it's usually the owners that are doing something wrong, not the puppy. 
but good luck!

ps - i haven't read the rest of the thread yet... also, as i type lol my puppy is biting my pants


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