# Shady rescue- reposting by request



## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

https://www.facebook.com/notes/veronica-wagner-covatch/dog-kidnappingrescue-refuses-to-return-lost-dog-to-owners/827549990606361

Dog Kidnapping..."RESCUE" REFUSES TO RETURN LOST DOG TO OWNERS
27 April 2014 at 08:54
Piper got loose from a friends yard in Columbus, Ohio while I was at the Nationals. She ended up at the Franklin County Shelter and Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue picked her up. I have contacted the director, Penny Sanderbeck, numerous times with Piper's microchip number and where it was implanted, copies of her AKC papers, photos, vet records, desciption of my dog and so has her co-owner. Penny Sanderbeck is refusing to return our dog to either one of us....she won't even respond to the co-owner! This is unethical and morally wrong. Piper is not abused or neglected! She is a very loved member of our family and is a house pet long before being a show dog. This so called "rescue" has NO reason NOT to return Piper to us that's in Piper's best interest! 

(this was copied and pasted)


----------



## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Wow. This happened recently with a shelter in Pennsylvania who wouldn't return a dog for a while because they forgot their contract said to contact them immediately if the dog was lost. The contract they had signed TWO YEARS prior. Ugh. Luckily after a lot of backlash that dog was returned to his rightful owners, and hopefully this one ends up the same way

Honestly these types of things are the reasons I typically prefer dealing with a shelter over a rescue. Not always of course, there are some great rescues and terrible shelters, but that's been my general experience.


----------



## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I really don't feel we should allow these posts. We've got one copied paragraph, can't even question the accuser, the accused isn't even aware they need to defend themselves . . . It's just so one sided and unfair.

As for "they signed the contract two whole years ago" so what? Terms of contracts do not become null and void based on the passage of time. Your mortgage requires you to hold insurance on the property. If you allow the insurance to lapse, the bank can and will foreclose. You can't go to Court and say, "hey, I signed that like 2 years ago, how do expect me to remember any of the terms?" Ain't gonna fly.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

The shelter here has a very short holding period for surrenders (just long enough to do the vet stuff and assess behavior) but for lost dogs the holding period before the dog is put up for adoption or released to a rescue is pretty long...I want to say like 10 days, two weeks, something like that. So the story sounds rather odd to me. How long was the dog gone before anyone went looking for her?


----------



## XenaWarrior (Apr 22, 2014)

After reading in on this story I have gathered a few facts. Some of those facts really shine a lot of light onto this on going fued. I feel really sorry for the owner(s) of this Sheltie and the dog herself. 

Fact One: The rescue "Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue" has now pulled down their official website and Facebook page. Why? If there is nothing to hide, if there is nothing to be ashamed of, if you feel you're not in the wrong? All those so called "rescued" Shelties that need to find good homes have now been taken off of the web and aren't viewable (unless you dig really hard) to those seeking and willing to give a good home. Social media sites account for over 95 percent of adoptions that take place in either shelters or rescues. 

Two, there is an article written by a credible source with screenshots of some of Peggy Sanderbeck's official responses (before she pulled the sites.pages down). Her reasons for NOT returning the dog go from one extreme to the next - most of them falling onto her personal "morality" scope and deciding the dog is better in a home with her. Article

Three, the owner of the dog Veronica has posted official documents showing proof the dog is owned by her. Peggy, the Director of the rescue, has falsely claimed no official proof was sent to her. Yet it's posted on Facebook and she has had 6 different people submit the paperwork to her. Documents 

All in all, it's pretty obvious from the hundreds of photo's/vet papers and bills/AKC registration/Microchip records/etc that the dog belongs rightfully to Veronica. So it's a hard pill to swallow as to why her dog has no been returned.


----------



## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Annnnnnnd this is why so many people shy away from rescues and shelters.

I'd walk in there and find my dog, take her home, and dare one of them to stop me. I don't see how they can.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Same. The dog's at a private home? They have to take her for walks sometime, or at least let her out into a yard. I'd make sure I had all my proof of ownership on me, go up and grab my dog, and tell them to call the police if they wanted.


----------



## TheOtherCorgi (Sep 18, 2013)

IMHO, if this forum leaves up rants about breeders, then there is no reason why we can't post about unethical rescues. 

I'm sorry if someone has a problem with this post, but the truth of it is that not everone involved in rescue has good intentions and it's important that people understand that. 

People NEED to know that they NEED to be careful NO MATTER WHERE THEY GET A DOG. 

And this is a sad situation for the owners of the sheltie. I know she's very much missed and I can't imagine being in that situation. I'm sorry, I'd probably drive to the house and just pluck my dog from the back yard when no one was looking. 

Let them TRY to get her back, when I have all of the vaccination records, her birth records, all of her AKC paperwork, ribbons she's won, shows she's entered, pictures I have of us in shows and herding and pictures of my whole family together where she's clearly in the center of it all...

I would like for someone to try to tell me I'm less of a fit dog owner then they are.


----------



## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I am completely a rescue person and am very supportive of the work shelters and rescues do. I will never not rescue dogs. But I do think it's important to be able to have a dialogue of critiquing some of these rescue's policies. We talk all the time about people, whether they be trainers, breeders, whoever without allowing them to give their opinion. That's basically how internet forums work, right?

Sure, you should do your best to hold yourself to a contract no matter how many years ago you signed it. But imagine you just lost your beloved dog and were desperate to find him. Would your FIRST thought be to go re-read the contract and see when you have to call the rescue you got him from? I think that's pretty doubtful, especially because of how stressed I'd imagine you would be. You'd call local shelters, put up fliers, etc. That's why people thought the PA case was ridiculous.


----------



## Chichan (Apr 1, 2014)

Why hasn't the owner contacted the police?
If my dog was being kept in a rescue and I had all the proof of ownership and they wouldn't release him to me.
I'd call the police, not leave it for X number of days and try to rally up a social media army.


----------



## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

Yeah I'm actually not sure why the police haven't been contacted. I don't know if they would do much, but I would think it was worth contacting them? Or maybe just threatening to get authorities involved would scare the rescue?


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Eenypup said:


> Yeah I'm actually not sure why the police haven't been contacted. I don't know if they would do much, but I would think it was worth contacting them? Or maybe just threatening to get authorities involved would scare the rescue?


I wonder what the legalities would be if the situation were more legitimate. Say if the dog had been abused in the previous home (presuming there was solid evidence of this) would the rescue have any legal authority to keep the dog if the actual owner came and wanted them back?

Somehow I don't think so, unless they were authorized to seize abused and neglected animals on behalf of the city/state/etc.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I would be calling the police in a second just to see if they could do anything! I really hope the owner gets the dog back..


----------



## Twokings (Apr 9, 2014)

I'm not a fan of rescues either. I missed out on adopting a 2nd dog at my local shelter that I had been eyeing for a few days. I showed up and was told the dog "went to rescue" a few hours earlier. I called the rescue group thinking they would be thrilled to have it taken off their hands so quickly only to have them act insulted that I would even think they would consider adopting out to me. 

They had me fill out a ridiculous questionnaire and wanted references from my vet as well as an in home visit. The cost of adoption was also now $375 because the dog had all it's vaccinations...of course the cost at shelter was $25 to adopt and THEY were the ones who vaccinated the dog. 

They rejected me in the end because I live in an apartment and currently have 1 dog already who they felt might hurt the smaller dog. 

3 months later I still see the dog looking for a home.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Twokings said:


> I'm not a fan of rescues either. I missed out on adopting a 2nd dog at my local shelter that I had been eyeing for a few days. I showed up and was told the dog "went to rescue" a few hours earlier. I called the rescue group thinking they would be thrilled to have it taken off their hands so quickly only to have them act insulted that I would even think they would consider adopting out to me.
> 
> They had me fill out a ridiculous questionnaire and wanted references from my vet as well as an in home visit. The cost of adoption was also now $375 because the dog had all it's vaccinations...of course the cost at shelter was $25 to adopt and THEY were the ones who vaccinated the dog.
> 
> ...


I feel very bad for you. The dog would have been better off if it had stayed just a couple hours more in the shelter so it could have been adopted. 

A shelter I worked at used to be part of a larger rescue organization who had rules like 'people who own a mobility scooter can't own a dog' or 'people who live in an apartment can't own a dog' and that rescue refused so many potential owners for ridiculous reasons the shelter quit working with them. Good thing too, imo. 

I hope this Veronica person calls the police or finds a lawyer who can help her get her dog back.


----------



## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

Before I got Xena, I looked at rescues, and saw the most beautiful white German shepherd. They got him at one year old and they still had him 3 years later because he has a heart condition and needs medication for the rest of his life. I messaged and called them, they didn't answer so I left a voicemail telling them I was very interested in adopting him and wanted to speak to someone about it and I didn't even get a response. He's still there, a year later. Maybe I wouldn't have been the right home but I was a bit offended to be completely blown off like that. You would think they would be thrilled to find someone willing to take on a dog like that.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> Before I got Xena, I looked at rescues, and saw the most beautiful white German shepherd. They got him at one year old and they still had him 3 years later because he has a heart condition and needs medication for the rest of his life. I messaged and called them, they didn't answer so I left a voicemail telling them I was very interested in adopting him and wanted to speak to someone about it and I didn't even get a response. He's still there, a year later. Maybe I wouldn't have been the right home but I was a bit offended to be completely blown off like that. You would think they would be thrilled to find someone willing to take on a dog like that.


In some cases I really think the rescues have no interest in adopting out certain dogs. I've seen dogs here that have been at a rescue for months and months, maybe longer, seen people say they applied for them on the group's facebook page... but the dogs are still there. 

My cousin applied to adopt a 3 legged Chi mix from a local rescue, and the rescue never contacted her back. Several weeks later of her calling and e-mailing they finally told her the dog had been adopted already. 

I'm not trying to bash rescues, but I really think some of them could use some people who have customer service skills to deal with the public a little better.


----------



## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> In some cases I really think the rescues have no interest in adopting out certain dogs. I've seen dogs here that have been at a rescue for months and months, maybe longer, seen people say they applied for them on the group's facebook page... but the dogs are still there.
> 
> My cousin applied to adopt a 3 legged Chi mix from a local rescue, and the rescue never contacted her back. Several weeks later of her calling and e-mailing they finally told her the dog had been adopted already.
> 
> I'm not trying to bash rescues, but I really think some of them could use some people who have customer service skills to deal with the public a little better.


That dog has been there a total of 4 years, surely a home would be better than living the rest of his life out there! That's ridiculous your friend had to keep after them like that just to be told the dog has been adopted. :/ I agree, some customer service is badly needed at some of these rescues.


----------



## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Sarah~ said:


> That dog has been there a total of 4 years, surely a home would be better than living the rest of his life out there! That's ridiculous your friend had to keep after them like that just to be told the dog has been adopted. :/ I agree, some customer service is badly needed at some of these rescues.


I understand that sometimes you have to use discretion and can't necessarily just lay everything out there to everyone who inquires, but a simple "Thanks for your interest, Dog X is currently pending adoption. If it doesn't work out we'll let you know." doesn't take a lot of time and makes you seem less jerkish than just never even acknowledging they applied to adopt. :/


----------



## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> I understand that sometimes you have to use discretion and can't necessarily just lay everything out there to everyone who inquires, but a simple "Thanks for your interest, Dog X is currently pending adoption. If it doesn't work out we'll let you know." doesn't take a lot of time and makes you seem less jerkish than just never even acknowledging they applied to adopt. :/


Exactly, short and sweet. I would have been totally ok with a message like that. It just made me mad to be totally ignored, especially when the dog's description talked about how sweet he was, his special needs and how he was there for years waiting for his forever home. Just take the dog down if no one is good enough or you don't want to adopt him out. And obviously I have no issues taking care of dogs with special needs, I would try to contact them again but it's just kind of like what's the point? 

Not the message rescues want to send out, for sure!


----------



## d_ray (Nov 5, 2013)

I had the most amazing experience with the rescue Jewel came from. I called about a specific dog on petfinder and they told me right away that that dog had already received a lot of applications but asked if I was interested in other dogs. We spoke a lot and once they found out what we were looking for, they put us in contact with Jewel's foster mom. We spoke on the phone and then went to meet Jewel. We loved her but they weren't sure how she would be with cats. Jewel's foster mom cat tested her with the neighbours cat and she seemed fine so we arranged a home visit. My husband and I were out of town so the home visit had to wait a couple weeks. Jewel had over 10 applications in for her and they wouldn't meet with anyone else until we had a home visit. They (foster mom and lady who runs the Ontario branch of the rescue) brought Jewel and another dog over and stayed for over an hour. They brought two dogs so that we could see the contrast in energy/personalities. They wanted us to let the cats do their regular thing. It was a success so we picked up Jewel the next week. They were so supportive (and still are). I called them a lot the first month and they would talk to me anytime. It was such an amazing experience and I can't say enough good things about this rescue.


----------



## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

This situation is still unresolved and has gotten very, very twisted.

The "rescuer" is all over the place, her claims, responses and demands have been very contradicting and in some cases bordering on irrational... Denying receiving proof of ownership, despite receiving it repeatedly (and publicly released on facebook and elsewhere) and the owner is willing to jump through hoops to prove the dogs identity and get her dog back. The owner and third parties offered to pay the adoption fees, expenses, home security system, host fund raisers for the rescue and give public praise / credit to the rescue for "finding and re-uniting" the lost dog with owner, ect... Which have all been rejected.

At this point, they're apparently headed to court over the dog as all attempts at third party mediation has failed.

http://www.bestinshowdaily.com/blog/when-a-rescue-goes-wrong/


----------



## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I really can't believe this is STILL happening! I hope Piper is returned in the next 5 days. This is just ridiculous.

I tried once to adopt a dog from a rescue. It was a Doberman Pincher rescue that wanted $450 for a dog, which wasn't an issue. They took one look at my application, saw I owned a Pit Bull and said never. I got Nubs from a shelter that bent some of the rules to let me have him after I developed a relationship with them over my prior dog Carter. The shelter director and I still are in contact 6 years later because she was going to adopt Nubs if he wasn't adopted before his time was up. She still is happy she bent a few rules because Nubs is still in a fantastic home 6 years later and she gets almost daily updates of the dog she loved.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

Ridiculous. I want to know the outcome of this.


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

parus said:


> The shelter here has a very short holding period for surrenders (just long enough to do the vet stuff and assess behavior) but for lost dogs the holding period before the dog is put up for adoption or released to a rescue is pretty long...I want to say like 10 days, two weeks, something like that. So the story sounds rather odd to me. How long was the dog gone before anyone went looking for her?


Yea every rescue I've been apart of, and even my own rescue, has a holding period.
For surrenders it's 14 days to allow for any vetting and behavioural assessment so we can place the animal appropriately - but for animals that are just picked up and brought over it's 30 days, and during that 30 day period we are all over AC and other 'Lost Pet' finders to try to track down an owner.

I don't feel like there's enough info here to make a proper judgement of this particular rescue.
_________________________________________________________________________________

ETA: I missed page 2....
If the owner is willing to pay the adoption fee then this "rescue" should seriously just hand over the dog! They could get in HUGE trouble, and even shut down for this! Is it all worth it over 1 dog that already has a home and doesn't NEED rescuing?


----------



## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Update: Judge ordered Piper be returned to owner!
So now its a waiting game to see if they either A) find Piper during their grounds inspection and return to owner. or B) Piper is not found on the rescue grounds and Sanderbeck has to produce and return the dog.

http://www.bestinshowdaily.com/blog/pipers-saga-moves-to-the-courtroom/


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Ugh, the latest development:



> Piper will not be coming home for now. Central Ohio Sheltie Rescue, Inc. and Penny Sanderbeck posted $10,000 counter-replevin bond today with the Franklin County Municipal Court to retain possession of Veronia Covatch’s champion Shetland Sheepdog, Ch. Legacies Pipe Dream (Piper).


What is WRONG with this woman?


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Ugh, the latest development:
> 
> 
> 
> What is WRONG with this woman?


Obviously a lot. What legitimate rescue would spent $10,000 to hold on to a dog that has a home that obviously loves and cares for it!? How many other truly neglected or abused dogs would $10,000 help? I realize it is "only" a bond at this point, but from all the evidence we, the internetz, has shown, Sanderbeck doesn't seem to have a legal right to be in possession of the dog. I wonder who her legal representation is.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Wait, did she basically just pay them 10k to keep a dog that she knows isn't hers? What the heck???


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

What the...? This is seriously crazy. This woman sounds completely unhinged.


----------



## Darkmoon (Mar 12, 2007)

I hope Piper's owner sues the heck out of this woman to recoup the cost of all this. This is just beyond stupid.


----------



## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

So all this money that could be going to help dogs that are actually _in need_ is being spent to keep a champion show dog from her owner? Yeah that makes perfect sense.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

has there been any proof that her dog is still alive ???


----------



## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I checked out the rescues website, they have an open legal letter posted on the subject, defending their actions..the letter is so screwy, it seriously says "the ONLY 'evidence' provided was a pedigree, vet records and photos"..... errr? Only? The "only" evidence provided was proof of ownership and therfore nothing has been proven? Huh?

I have a feeling this rescue is going fight to the death just to prove a point..backing down now will essentially be admitting to being in the wrong and they don't wanna lose face by backing down. Obviously they are losing face by doing this, but that's not how they are gonna see it.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> has there been any proof that her dog is still alive ???


This is what I keep wondering.

I think Miss Bugs is right, though. I think they're just going to fight and fight and fight to avoid being wrong or admitting being wrong. 

Whether that's because they have some god complex going on or the dog is dead/something is wrong with the dog, I don't know.


----------



## littlesoprano (Sep 21, 2013)

CptJack said:


> This is what I keep wondering.
> 
> I think Miss Bugs is right, though. I think they're just going to fight and fight and fight to avoid being wrong or admitting being wrong.
> 
> Whether that's because they have some god complex going on or the dog is dead/something is wrong with the dog, I don't know.


Part of me wonders if the rescue spayed the girl, which would probably escalate things. Still very very sad they won't give the dog back, bad press for a rescue.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

littlesoprano said:


> Part of me wonders if the rescue spayed the girl, which would probably escalate things. Still very very sad they won't give the dog back, bad press for a rescue.


That would also be something.

Just... makes me think the rescue is trying to hide something about the status/state of the dog that they are responsible for and would require admitting wrong doing beyond giving the dog back. I dunno, maybe I'm paranoid but it feels like they're hiding something.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I've been assuming they spayed the dog, yeah. I hope the real owner wins big in court. The rescue lady just seems unhinged to me. If she really cared about rescuing dogs, she wouldn't spend $10,000 to (likely temporarily) keep a dog that's not hers when she could use that money to save SO MANY dogs that are actually in need.

I don't even know what I'd do if someone stole my dog like this. Probably end up in jail, honestly, because there's no way I'd wait months to get my dog back.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'd probably end up in jail, too. 

My options would be a-) Get police involved and ask them to help me retrieve my dog. B-) steal my dog back and hope like heck *I* got to keep the dog while the court made a decision. Either way, I would Lose. My. Crap. Completely.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Just... makes me think the rescue is trying to hide something about the status/state of the dog that they are responsible for and would require admitting wrong doing beyond giving the dog back. I dunno, maybe I'm paranoid but it feels like they're hiding something.


Agreed. It didn't occur to me that they spayed the dog but it sure makes sense. 

I don't know if they're trying to make a stand against breeders or what but this is so incredibly stupid. "Only" pedigree, vet records, and photos? smh


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking, too. Police first -- but I suspect they'd say to go to small claims court, so my next move would probably be to just take the dog back. The thief couldn't keep it in the house forever, right? I could easily prove ownership if they tried to retaliate. Vet records, CanKC/UKC papers, microchips/tattoos, hundreds of photos, etc.

This rescue lady claims that someone tried to break into her house (it's one of the reasons she refused to return the dog -- in her mind, returning Piper would be letting "bullies" win, apparently). I wonder if that's true.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I wonder if there will be lasting effects for other rescues and breeders. From things I've read, it sounds as though the situation is driving a wedge between some breeders and some rescues. It's a shame, because in the end, the dogs are the ones who suffer. 

The Dog Snobs posted about the situation in a way only they can: Meanwhile in Crazy Town a.k.a. And the point of this is what exactly? There is some good advice at the end about preventing similar situations.


----------



## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

I would seriously lose my cool over something like this. My HUSBAND would go full-on Mission Impossible. Or Liam Neeson in Taken. It's just so crazy and unbelievable!


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

The comments on the dog snobs entry are turning into a fight. There's a person in there claiming that the breeder actually rehomed the dog (via an online classifieds site) when it was killing puppies, and that the dog was also sterile. They claim that the dog escaped from its new owners and the breeder decided to claim it was staying with a dogsitter at the time. Who knows if any of that is true? Regardless, the breeder or new owners would still have more right to the dog than this rescue -- all good breeders will take a dog back if the new owner can't keep it for whatever reason.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> all good breeders will take a dog back if the new owner can't keep it for whatever reason.


Now here's a question: does the breeder actually have any legal right to this? Yes, they say, we WILL take back our dogs at any time, but do they actually have ownership rights if the person currently in possession of the dog doesn't want to return the dog to the breeder? 

I guess if they rehomed the dog that would come into question. I'm just not sure how that works legally.

(For instance: if a person bought a puppy, signed the contract stating "if at any time you can't keep this dog, he/she must be returned to the breeder", but then they give the dog to a friend instead. I think the breeder can go after the buyer for breach of contract, but do they have any legal standing to remove the dog from the current home?)


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Depends on the status of the registration and if the breeder is still listed as owner or coowner.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> Depends on the status of the registration and if the breeder is still listed as owner or coowner.


The AKC registration? Yikes, I dont even have Moose's papers; his previous owner is still listed as owner on those. Not that it matters because he's not in a position to keep him, but say we weren't on good terms. Do microchips, rabies certificates, and city licenses take precedence or would AKC papers always win? So a rescue's contract would definitely not allow them to remove the dog from the new home (since they wouldn't be listed as co-owners on any registration) or would it work if they were listed as co-owner on the microchip? 

Wow, it's complicated. . .I'm glad I'm not the judge on that case.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

the owner of the dog themselves said that the dog was sterile but that they wanted her to remain intact for health reasons.


----------



## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> The comments on the dog snobs entry are turning into a fight. There's a person in there claiming that the breeder actually rehomed the dog (via an online classifieds site) when it was killing puppies, and that the dog was also sterile. They claim that the dog escaped from its new owners and the breeder decided to claim it was staying with a dogsitter at the time. Who knows if any of that is true? Regardless, the breeder or new owners would still have more right to the dog than this rescue -- all good breeders will take a dog back if the new owner can't keep it for whatever reason.


I've been following this story and some other interesting twists have also been voiced, but then buried under the onslaught. One side is asserting that due to a shady holiday weekend deal Piper was released to the rescue before the "owner" had time to locate her, but I've also heard that Piper actually was in the possession of animal control for the full and lawfully required stray hold time frame before the "owner" even started looking for her. If Piper was with AC for the required stray hold then an "owner" has lost all legal rights to her. She can be disposed of as AC sees fit.

I personally feel this story isn't as cut and dry as a villainous rescue who is so misguided in their anti-breeder stance that they are willing to fight to the last dollar simply to punish the "breeder" nor a "bad breeder". Like many things in life we'll probably find the truth lies somewhere in middle and is being lost in all the innuendo and hyperbole being spewed by people in either camp who, frankly, are most likely not even personally involved with the case. I just hope the court gets all the information it needs to make a just and fair ruling.


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

This whole thing is idiocy! I would be FUMING if someone did that to me...


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> Depends on the status of the registration and if the breeder is still listed as owner or coowner.


It probably also depends on the wording of the purchase contract, if there is one.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Emmett said:


> I've been following this story and some other interesting twists have also been voiced, but then buried under the onslaught. One side is asserting that due to a shady holiday weekend deal Piper was released to the rescue before the "owner" had time to locate her, but I've also heard that Piper actually was in the possession of animal control for the full and lawfully required stray hold time frame before the "owner" even started looking for her. If Piper was with AC for the required stray hold then an "owner" has lost all legal rights to her. She can be disposed of as AC sees fit.
> 
> I personally feel this story isn't as cut and dry as a villainous rescue who is so misguided in their anti-breeder stance that they are willing to fight to the last dollar simply to punish the "breeder" nor a "bad breeder". Like many things in life we'll probably find the truth lies somewhere in middle and is being lost in all the innuendo and hyperbole being spewed by people in either camp who, frankly, are most likely not even personally involved with the case. I just hope the court gets all the information it needs to make a just and fair ruling.


HHonestly, the ffact that they paid 10000 for this one dog to stay with them instead of releasing the dog to someone who obviously cares about her and using that money to rescue dogs in actual need made them lose all credibility for me.


----------



## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> The comments on the dog snobs entry are turning into a fight. There's a person in there claiming that the breeder actually rehomed the dog (via an online classifieds site) when it was killing puppies, and that the dog was also sterile. They claim that the dog escaped from its new owners and the breeder decided to claim it was staying with a dogsitter at the time. Who knows if any of that is true? Regardless, the breeder or new owners would still have more right to the dog than this rescue -- all good breeders will take a dog back if the new owner can't keep it for whatever reason.


The rescue is misrepresenting the details already presented by the breeder/owner.

From what I've read, posted by the owner/breeder (and what I've read from the rescue end):

The dog *was* sold, to a CO-OWNER. They have not denied this and have been very open that the dog is co-owned with the breeder, Veronica Covatch, being the owner. The breeder (Veronica Covatch) is the primary owner and I think the co-owner is Michelle Wilson and from what I understand Wilson is the one that was pet-sitting.

The dog is sterile and has not been bred because she has killed another bitch's pups in the past. Breeder/owner was very upfront about that as well.

There were not six random people claiming independent ownership. Just six people contacting to let them know who the owners are: Covatch and 

If you can find screen shots of the original responses from Penny Sanderbeck when she was first notified and corresponding about Piper, her callous attitude and disregard would likely shock you. 

Also, the Shelter broke policy to place Piper with the rescue. Made a half arsed effort to locate the owners via chip by calling after hours on a holiday weekend and then first thing after the holiday (three day hold on a holiday weekend for a dog that was chipped and thus supposed to be held for 14 days to allow for owner location) passed the dog off to the rescue. The rescue was then notified within *24 hours* that the dog had a home.

The owners have even offered to pay adoption fees and expenses. Third party mediators, who offered to host fund raisers for the dogs, pay for a new security system, ect. Were blown off.

And now posting a 10,000 bond to keep someone else's dog out of spite while also claiming to be in urgent need of funds for other dogs they're caring for.

Its gotten bizarre.

And many other Sheltie rescues, including the national rescue who apparently tried to mediate and get Piper returned, have distanced themselves from COSR (the rescue).


----------



## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Now here's a question: does the breeder actually have any legal right to this? Yes, they say, we WILL take back our dogs at any time, but do they actually have ownership rights if the person currently in possession of the dog doesn't want to return the dog to the breeder?
> 
> I guess if they rehomed the dog that would come into question. I'm just not sure how that works legally.
> 
> (For instance: if a person bought a puppy, signed the contract stating "if at any time you can't keep this dog, he/she must be returned to the breeder", but then they give the dog to a friend instead. I think the breeder can go after the buyer for breach of contract, but do they have any legal standing to remove the dog from the current home?)


If the breeder sells the dog on a co-ownership or a contract where they have specific terms regarding termination or transfer of ownership, yes a breeder has legal rights to the dog. To make it reliable, you'd need to consult with a lawyer to ensure the contract is written in a manner that is valid and easily enforced.

Piper is co-owned by Veronic Covatch (primary owner & Breeder) and Wilson (co-owner). And the registration papers reflect that.

And depending on the judge, yes they have grounds to reclaim the dog. Since technically, the moment that dog leaves the hands of the owner who is under contract, the dog technically becomes stolen property. (Plus, think about it. You sign a co-ownership / limited ownership contract with many rescues when you adopt...)


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

cookieface said:


> I wonder if there will be lasting effects for other rescues and breeders. From things I've read, it sounds as though the situation is driving a wedge between some breeders and some rescues. It's a shame, because in the end, the dogs are the ones who suffer.
> 
> The Dog Snobs posted about the situation in a way only they can: Meanwhile in Crazy Town a.k.a. And the point of this is what exactly? There is some good advice at the end about preventing similar situations.



The wedge has been being driven for years....

This may well slam the door to the future between the well brd dog world and rescue....


The damage this one woman/rescue is doing to rescue in this country is severe....Quite possibly permanent...


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

this one put another serious notch of negative in my own opinion on rescues... but the first hand experience damage has been done well before reading this story... I still feel heartfelt positive for individual fosters..


----------



## fourdogs (Feb 3, 2014)

Wow. I would be livid. I would probably stalk this lady's home until they pottied my dog and then steal it back! 
I do NOT like rescues. I both fostered and did free grooms for a rescue in the past. They were a fairly decent rescue to work with. 

So over the last several years I"ve tried 3 times (different rescues/and different places we've lived- we're military) to adopt through a rescue. I consider myself a great home for dogs. We go to classes, I walk them regularly, every need is met for cares, meds, etc. Their grooming is always good- never a bad hair day, I use positive training methods, I'm home all day, etc. Nope. Not good enough. Generally it's because I have "kids" and generally they are not the right "age" and in some way a "danger" to the dog in question. The poor dog could've had a great home. They think they are denying ME/my family a dog and keeping me from owning a dog, when in fact they pushed me to the "bad guy," a breeder, each time! (With the exception of my chihuahua, who was given to me by our neighbor who was divorcing and couldn't keep her.)

So, anyway, after this third time trying to get a beautiful mini poodle that "loves kids!" but was denied because I have a 10 and 7 year old.... I'm pretty much done. 

Ok, well that was a rant, but these rescues are ridiculous, some of them!

I hope that this dog gets returned to her owner.... does it make any difference if the dog is chipped? All of mine and the cat are chipped, so if they were taken or found there is 100% proof that they are part of MY family, right?


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And the entire bond thing is ridiculous. Why the judge ordered that is crazy. 

Judge should have signed an order a deputy go to the house and demanded the dog. 

The woman refuses, put her in cuffs and take her to jail and let her sit. If the dog is on property, deputy seizes it. If not the woman can sit until she tells the Judge where the dog is....

Then there is the question of the 10 grand....

There is a TON of speculation where the funds came from...


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I wouldn't start hating rescue more because of this. There are crazy rescue people and crazy breeders as well. It's just sad how much rescue hates breeders and assumes they are all bad. They could do so much educating if they could just get along and support one another.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

There's been a rift for a long, long time.

I'm not going to say it's all the rescue groups faults, but even the otherwise really good ones, more often than not, are absolutely anti-breeder. A lot of it's propaganda and rescues and individuals buying into campaigns with cutesy slogans like 'Don't breed or buy while shelter pets die" and 'Don't litter'. They don't ever really learn that good breeders aren't contributing to that, and down in the trenches and burned out and frustrated they don't really distinguish. I understand why they don't, and I don't think they're all crazy and bad -

But they have some fundamental differences of philosophy that makes them alienate breeders without even trying and make alliance just about impossible. 

I DO know breeders who rescue, but they are absolutely not affiliated with rescue groups - because the rescue groups don't want any association with anyone who breeds ANYTHING, or in some cases even have intact animals.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

I personally think an Anti Breeding or AR group is behind the funds for the bond.


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I personally think an Anti Breeding or AR group is behind the funds for the bond.


I don't see what the point would be, since the dog isn't a breeding dog. If they wanted to prove some kind of AR point they could have picked a better representative.

It sounds like a petty personal dispute that got way out of hand. Now both sides are being obnoxious and doing stuff just to annoy each other. Like 12-year olds. Grow up people.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I don't see what the point would be, since the dog isn't a breeding dog. If they wanted to prove some kind of AR point they could have picked a better representative.
> 
> It sounds like a petty personal dispute that got way out of hand. Now both sides are being obnoxious and doing stuff just to annoy each other. Like 12-year olds. Grow up people.


This is a HUGE chance for AR to make a point. And get a huge win over breeders. 

The rescue nor the director appears to have the funds to cover the legal, much less the bond. 

Someone is pushing some buttons. 

There is NOTHING petty about the actions of the owner.....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess I'm not sure how a dispute over one dog would constitute anything huge or be a "win over breeders". I'm pretty sure heated disputes over dog ownership have happened before with no particular repercussions. I hadn't even heard about this until this thread got bumped so it's not like non-dog-world people are hearing about this. If some nefarious group wants to make a point you'd think they could do a better job of publicity.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I guess I'm not sure how a dispute over one dog would constitute anything huge or be a "win over breeders". I'm pretty sure heated disputes over dog ownership have happened before with no particular repercussions. I hadn't even heard about this until this thread got bumped so it's not like non-dog-world people are hearing about this. If some nefarious group wants to make a point you'd think they could do a better job of publicity.


Because this is a rescue taking a "stand" against a breeder. 

This is HUGE.... It is being talked about worldwide.... Lines are being drawn over this that will not likely ever be erased.....


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Worldwide among dog people, I suppose. I couldn't even find anything about this, before the most recent developments, on an actual AP media site, only dog sites.

To me the most alarming thing about this case is the county shelter not following their rules about stray holds. But that's happened so often (and usually ends with the dog being killed) that I guess nobody wants to take that on :/.


----------



## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Willowy said:


> I guess I'm not sure how a dispute over one dog would constitute anything huge or be a "win over breeders". I'm pretty sure heated disputes over dog ownership have happened before with no particular repercussions. I hadn't even heard about this until this thread got bumped so it's not like non-dog-world people are hearing about this. If some nefarious group wants to make a point you'd think they could do a better job of publicity.


You would be absolutely AMAZED what some AR fanatics will do to spite breeders or those they have an agenda against.

Including poison animals, set them loose or steal pets.
Or commit vandalism.

Doesn't make sense to rational people. Makes plenty of sense to crazy people.

Just visit the average AR community / forum. The amount of enraged, violent response you'll see is unsettling. Sometimes over bizarrely small things and often without verifying what they are told. Yes, some of what they are responding to is horrendous. But they rarely respond in a rational, collected manner.

And even some of the rescue networks I've been in. I've left quite a few after the CONTINUOUS lynch mob mentality and egging each other to take illegal actions such as theft, vandalism, threats, stalking and harassment.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Worldwide among dog people, I suppose. I couldn't even find anything about this, before the most recent developments, on an actual AP media site, only dog sites.
> 
> To me the most alarming thing about this case is the county shelter not following their rules about stray holds. But that's happened so often (and usually ends with the dog being killed) that I guess nobody wants to take that on :/.


Are you kidding me? This has been NATIONAL TV NEWS.... Every major paper in the US, UK, etc has carried multiple stories on it.


You do not get the end game for AR in this....

Divide and conquer...... If they can finish completing the tear between breeders and rescue, they have accomplished a HUGE goal....

Peta and HSUS REGULARLY do this.... They repeatedly drive wedges between groups that should have at least some common interests.....


----------



## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Worldwide among dog people, I suppose. I couldn't even find anything about this, before the most recent developments, on an actual AP media site, only dog sites.
> 
> *To me the most alarming thing about this case is the county shelter not following their rules about stray holds. But that's happened so often (and usually ends with the dog being killed) that I guess nobody wants to take that on* :/.


I'm sure if it would help get the dog back, the owners would take that on. But for them, the most alarming thing is their dog is being held hostage by a rescue. Not how the dog got there, but that they can't get her back.

Also, the shelter directer has already been fired. Not much else to do until after Piper is returned, then the community can put pressure on the shelter to get its act together. But its the LEAST of the concerns of Piper's owners.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> The wedge has been being driven for years....
> 
> This may well slam the door to the future between the well brd dog world and rescue....
> 
> ...


And the dogs will suffer.

Guess my perspective on breeders and rescue (at least breed-specific rescues) has been skewed by Katie and Tyson's breeder's heavy involvement and the support I've heard from other breeders.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I hate how all these threads turn into 'bash all the rescues'.... There are some great rescues out there. I know 3 ladies who are heavily involved in 3 different breed specific rescues and they do a fantastic job. They are fantastic dog owners, sport people, and in no way crazy. They do great work for their breeds- rescuing, transporting, and placing dogs.

I've had enough shady experiences with breeders to realize that a lot of the dog world on both sides is batsh*t insane and controlling.

My friend is a head of a sheltie rescue. This thing's a mess and no legitimate sheltie rescue condones this crazy person's acts.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I hate how all these threads turn into 'bash all the rescues'.... There are some great rescues out there. I know 3 ladies who are heavily involved in 3 different breed specific rescues and they do a fantastic job. They are fantastic dog owners, sport people, and in no way crazy. They do great work for their breeds- rescuing, transporting, and placing dogs.
> 
> *I've had enough shady experiences with breeders to realize that a lot of the dog world on both sides is batsh*t insane and controlling.*
> 
> My friend is a head of a sheltie rescue. This thing's a mess and no legitimate sheltie rescue condones this crazy person's acts.


Very much agree, especially with the bolded statement. I don't have as much experience as most folks here, but I'm smart enough to realize that one (or most times, several) bad breeder / rescue / owner / vet / etc. doesn't automatically mean they're _all_ bad.


----------



## Gumiho (Mar 16, 2013)

Laurelin said:


> I hate how all these threads turn into 'bash all the rescues'.... There are some great rescues out there. I know 3 ladies who are heavily involved in 3 different breed specific rescues and they do a fantastic job. They are fantastic dog owners, sport people, and in no way crazy. They do great work for their breeds- rescuing, transporting, and placing dogs.
> 
> I've had enough shady experiences with breeders to realize that a lot of the dog world on both sides is batsh*t insane and controlling.
> 
> My friend is a head of a sheltie rescue. This thing's a mess and no legitimate sheltie rescue condones this crazy person's acts.


I agree wholeheartedly.

But at least on the breeder side of things. I hear much, MUCH less death threats and egging each other on to do illegal things.

Lots of crazy "wtf..." stuff? Sure. All the time. There is even a laughably ridiculous site that was made by BYB to spite breeders and people that called them out for their practices or posted reviews on their experiences with them. And sure, a few of them resorted to stalking and threats, but even they aren't actively nurturing a violent and volatile atmosphere in their communities.

That isn't to say all rescue communities do. But those with a distinctive AR lean, rather than an AW lean... Very much so.


----------



## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I sooo don't get vehemently hating all rescues or breeders. It's so obvious that there are just as many crazy BYBs out there doing horrible things for dogs as there are crazy rescues doing things that are horrible for dogs. But in the end if you do your research you're bound to find a great place to get your dog, whether that be rescue, shelter, breeder, whatever! There are crazies everywhere. I don't see this as being an "anti" anything issue. I think the woman who took the shelter just seems nuts.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> I hate how all these threads turn into 'bash all the rescues'.... There are some great rescues out there. I know 3 ladies who are heavily involved in 3 different breed specific rescues and they do a fantastic job. They are fantastic dog owners, sport people, and in no way crazy. They do great work for their breeds- rescuing, transporting, and placing dogs.
> 
> I've had enough shady experiences with breeders to realize that a lot of the dog world on both sides is batsh*t insane and controlling.
> 
> My friend is a head of a sheltie rescue. This thing's a mess and no legitimate sheltie rescue condones this crazy person's acts.


I get your point.... But the masses are judged by the few......

And a fair number of rescue people have been doing this exact same thing to breeders for years.


----------



## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I know so many amazing people who do rescue. They have done so much to pull dogs from shelters and get them placed in good homes. There might be a few over the top, but man, life is a bell curve. I know some great breeders and some awful breeders too....again...that good ole bell curve.


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I made a thread about this yesterday without having apparently seen this one 

I really don't think there's anything "fishy" going on here. I think it's a matter of one very self-centered, arrogant lady in charge of a rescue who would rather spend thousands of dollars in court, hanging onto this dog simply because "it's her right" then to swallow her pride and just return the dog to it's owner who's demanding her back. I mean..come on. Her lawyer is trying to identify people online who have been trolling her to take legal action against them.... Can you even do that? LOL

As far as the whole "breeder vs rescue" deal, I HOPE most people have some common sense, and can see that what this lady is doing is her own deal and NOT how all rescues are. They've been disassociated with a lot of other sheltie rescues and organizations due to this whole thing.


----------



## PurplePointer (Jul 4, 2014)

fourdogs said:


> So over the last several years I"ve tried 3 times (different rescues/and different places we've lived- we're military) to adopt through a rescue. I consider myself a great home for dogs. We go to classes, I walk them regularly, every need is met for cares, meds, etc. Their grooming is always good- never a bad hair day, I use positive training methods, I'm home all day, etc. Nope. Not good enough. Generally it's because I have "kids" and generally they are not the right "age" and in some way a "danger" to the dog in question. The poor dog could've had a great home. They think they are denying ME/my family a dog and keeping me from owning a dog, when in fact they pushed me to the "bad guy," a breeder, each time! (With the exception of my chihuahua, who was given to me by our neighbor who was divorcing and couldn't keep her.)
> 
> So, anyway, after this third time trying to get a beautiful mini poodle that "loves kids!" but was denied because I have a 10 and 7 year old.... I'm pretty much done.
> 
> Ok, well that was a rant, but these rescues are ridiculous, some of them!


I am right with you. I think a lot of rescues have the hard and fast rules that keep good people from adopting. We were turned away from 2 rescues, 1 shelter and 2 breeders just because we have kids under 6, no one would even consider the fact my husband works from home and I stay home with the kids so the dog would have constant supervision. This is why puppy mills stay in business.


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I hate to say it, but I won't even try rescues due to their strict rules. Because we live in an RV, don't have an actual yard, and travel frequently, somehow that makes us a crappy home in the eyes of rescue organizations, despite having two very happy, well cared for dogs now. When looking to adopt a new dog, I primarily stick to Craigslist or third party rescue situations.


----------



## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I'm pretty sure I've taken myself off the adoptable home list because I have two **gasp** intact male dogs in my house. On the rottweiler discussion forum I hang on, there have been plenty of people who have been turned down to either foster or adopt because they have intact show dogs in the house. Stupid. 

I have a lot of sheltie FB friends because of agility...and this story has been all over my newsfeed like wildfire. The performance sheltie world is appalled this is happening. I have a feeling Piper is dead and that's why she paid the money...she can't return her to her rightful owner. 

This is hands down my worst fear...my dogs become lost and find their way to a rescue who alters them and rehomes them despite them being both microchipped through the AKC recovery program and registered to me and has their breeder as an alternate contact. Scary, scary stuff....


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> This is hands down my worst fear...my dogs become lost and find their way to a rescue who alters them and rehomes them despite them being both microchipped through the AKC recovery program and registered to me and has their breeder as an alternate contact. Scary, scary stuff....


You are not the only one. I have seen numerous people commenting on this story saying they now have that same fear. It is a shame what this woman has done to the rescue community, I know not all are like that but JB is right, the masses are judged by the few. There have been enough stories like this to make it a legitimate concern.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

http://www.nbc4i.com/story/26284026/rescue-group-refuses-to-return-runaway-sheltie

Good for the national sheltie network.

All I can say is that I hope when/if she gets her dog back, that someone records Pipers first reaction and posts the vid. That would be awesome.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

since the first shelter shipped Piper off so fast you wonder if they get a good kick back $$$ finders fee,, for a good (find/take) The only confusion on if they are holding Piper for her to whelp a batch of puppies is just that confusing.. I thought I read Piper was sterile somewhere on the thread.... and Piper's owner would know exactly if her bitch was due to be in heat when she took off or during the time she took off..


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> since the first shelter shipped Piper off so fast you wonder if they get a good kick back $$$ finders fee,, for a good (find/take) The only confusion on if they are holding Piper for her to whelp a batch of puppies is just that confusing.. I thought I read Piper was sterile somewhere on the thread.... and Piper's owner would know exactly if her bitch was due to be in heat when she took off or during the time she took off..


Piper is suppose to be sterile, so I am not sure why someone is speculating that the dog is pregnant, and that is why they won't give her back


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> I have a lot of sheltie FB friends because of agility...and this story has been all over my newsfeed like wildfire. The performance sheltie world is appalled this is happening. I have a feeling Piper is dead and that's why she paid the money...she can't return her to her rightful owner.


If Piper is dead, does Sanderbeck think that she can hide it forever? She must know that it will eventually come out. Unless she thinks she can drag this out until Piper could actually be dead.



> This is hands down my worst fear...my dogs become lost and find their way to a rescue who alters them and rehomes them despite them being both microchipped through the AKC recovery program and registered to me and has their breeder as an alternate contact. Scary, scary stuff....


Geez, something else for me to worry about. Although, it's more likely that Katie would get hit by a car as we live close to a major highway. I can't see Tyson ever leaving my side long enough to get lost.


----------



## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

All this worry that some rescue is going to keep your purebred dog is extraordinarily overblown. No ethical breeder likes to be tarred with the BYB brush and certainly no ethical rescue wants to be associated with this kind of action, either. The far, far greater likelihood with a lost or missing dog that isn't returned home is that some random anonymous person is going to find and keep it or flip it on craigslist, not that a shelter or rescue is going to pull something shady to avoid returning it. 

The anti-rescue sentiment on this board is really astonishing to me.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i really dont think anyone on this forum is anti-rescue and that isnt the feeling ive gotten at all. being afraid of this happening is a natural gut reaction to this situation. i have had a similar thing happen with a random neighbor who stole our puppy bc he got out and would not give him back, claiming he had been a stray. its not just rescues we have to worry about and everyone on this forum knows that.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

parus said:


> All this worry that some rescue is going to keep your purebred dog is extraordinarily overblown. No ethical breeder likes to be tarred with the BYB brush and certainly no ethical rescue wants to be associated with this kind of action, either. The far, far greater likelihood with a lost or missing dog that isn't returned home is that some random anonymous person is going to find and keep it or flip it on craigslist, not that a shelter or rescue is going to pull something shady to avoid returning it.
> 
> The anti-rescue sentiment on this board is really astonishing to me.


I've found this board to be very pro-rescue, assuming the rescue is run responsibly. It is, however, very much against unethical, unprincipled rescues and breeders. Folks here have high standards for both rescues and breeders and are fairly vocal about their opinions. It's one thing I like about the folks here.


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

parus said:


> The anti-rescue sentiment on this board is really astonishing to me.


Well, I am anti-COSR. Scratch that, I'm anti-sketchy rescue. I'm pro-not sketchy rescue.

One reason this is getting SO much attention from breeders and other concerned dog owners is that future law and its interpretation is set in part by precedent. So ultimately how cases like this are resolved in the future, as well as whether a movement starts to change dogs' legal standing as property, could depend on how this case is resolved.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

parus said:


> All this worry that some rescue is going to keep your purebred dog is extraordinarily overblown. No ethical breeder likes to be tarred with the BYB brush and certainly no ethical rescue wants to be associated with this kind of action, either. The far, far greater likelihood with a lost or missing dog that isn't returned home is that some random anonymous person is going to find and keep it or flip it on craigslist, not that a shelter or rescue is going to pull something shady to avoid returning it.
> 
> The anti-rescue sentiment on this board is really astonishing to me.


not as far fetched as it seems
http://www.thedogpress.com/SideEffects/Rescue-Raids_LP.asp


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

parus said:


> All this worry that some rescue is going to keep your purebred dog is extraordinarily overblown. No ethical breeder likes to be tarred with the BYB brush and certainly no ethical rescue wants to be associated with this kind of action, either. The far, far greater likelihood with a lost or missing dog that isn't returned home is that some random anonymous person is going to find and keep it or flip it on craigslist, not that a shelter or rescue is going to pull something shady to avoid returning it.
> 
> The anti-rescue sentiment on this board is really astonishing to me.


This really isn't about being anti-rescue. It's about people doing lousy, shady things to others. There are good breeders and good rescues. Then there are bad breeders and bad rescues. When a breeder does something shady, people react. Why should it be any different when a rescue does the same?

I still don't believe anything is going on behind the scenes other then the women in charge of the rescue is so self-righteous she doesn't want to admit she's wrong and look like a fool in front of her followers.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I LIKE rescue groups. I give a significant percentage of our income to rescue groups. I was heavily involved in the running of one for many years. I don't get m dogs from them anymore, and I don't always agree with all of the policies and procedures of an individual group, but I LIKE rescue groups and think they do good, important work and have a right to do it almost however they want.

But I really fail to see why they should be free from criticism, worry, or standards. We can call out owners, breeders, animal control facilities, farmers and everything else. Just because someone is calling themselves a rescue group does not mean they are not subject to being criticized. 

And yes, as Sass said, this sets a legal precedent and will affect future cases. Also, let's be real. This isn't the first time this has happened. This is the first time someone's had the money to really pursue this legally and with ANY public attention or coverage. There have been other, smaller stories of rescue groups with people's pets and not wanting to return them AND of animal controls adopting out and euthing people's pets. Figuring out what's going to happen legally -knowing and worrying- makes sense for anyone who owns a dog.

Purebred or NOT.

If your standard of saying 'rescues are bad' is because of statements about the fact that there's a rift between the rescue community and breeders, well. That's not judging the rescue as bad, that's a report of the prevailing attitude of the rescue community and society as a whole. I understand why that attitude exists and I don't think it makes people or rescues bad. It doesn't change the situation, though. Breeders are defensive and sick of 'Don't breed or buy while shelter pets die' propaganda and rescues are sick of cleaning up messes from puppy mills and awful breeders. There IS a divide.


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

This is actually something I worry about a lot, particularly with recently losing Ma'ii for a few hours a couple weeks ago. It makes you wonder if microchipping is even worth doing if people are just going to ignore the info on it or not check them at all.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I just really, really want to know what proof of ownership is.

If it's not microchips, tags, license, and/or registration: WHAT IS IT? Is it just having the animal for a certain amount of time without it being reclaimed? Is there a minimal requirement for trying to find the owner of the animal, if it's found? Obviously the stray hold in localities is known, but what happens if it's not upheld and the animal is transferred? Or the animal is found by an individuals?

Those are questions I used to think I knew the answer to, but depending on the ruling of this case, maybe not.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

parus said:


> All this worry that some rescue is going to keep your purebred dog is extraordinarily overblown. No ethical breeder likes to be tarred with the BYB brush and certainly no ethical rescue wants to be associated with this kind of action, either. The far, far greater likelihood with a lost or missing dog that isn't returned home is that some random anonymous person is going to find and keep it or flip it on craigslist, not that a shelter or rescue is going to pull something shady to avoid returning it.
> 
> The anti-rescue sentiment on this board is really astonishing to me.


The large majority of rescues hate breeders and don't even know that there are breeders out there that WANT their dogs back. I know plenty of them that would be _hesitant_ to return a dog to a breeder, because they believe it is morally wrong. I doubt they would be this crazy though. I've worked in rescue long enough to know some shady secrets. I'm still not anti-rescue because they do just as much beautiful good.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> not as far fetched as it seems
> http://www.thedogpress.com/SideEffects/Rescue-Raids_LP.asp


I didn't realize this had been going on for four months. That makes me sick. 

I find it funny that anyone could feel that the people on this board are anti-rescue... usually when a newbie comes here asking "what breed should I get", one of the first suggestions is an adult dog from a shelter. Not to mention the number of active members on this forum who are highly involved in rescue and/or only get their dogs from rescues and/or shelters.

Rescues do great work - even the poorly run ones usually have good intentions. But IME some rescues do get bogged down too much in inter-rescue politics and/or insisting that their definition of what is "best" for a dog is somehow more legitimate than everyone else's, and in finding the "perfect" home for _any_ dog, instead of finding the perfect home for the specific dog in question. I don't necessarily agree with policies like that, but that doesn't mean I think rescues with those policies are evil.


----------



## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ForTheLoveOfDogs said:


> . I've worked in rescue long enough to know some shady secrets. I'm still not anti-rescue because they do just as much beautiful good.


This is me.

And I admit the people who are the most... balanced/willing to criticize rescues and admit that they're not all wonderful are people who have worked with and in them for a good long time.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

When I found one of my mentors adult GSD's finally after two weeks showing up in the pound before there was chipping..(idiot story on how he got lost). It was tooth and nails getting him out even though I had filled out daily lost cards at the pound every day for two weeks going there in person looking for him. Blue, long coat GSD male and age.. The only reason I got him when they stood there saying they couldn't be sure he was mine to release him back to me, looking at all the cards I filled out.. I said he only has one testicle and they reached down and checked ,, Thank goodness I had , had no contact with the dog before that moment for them to let him go, that I wouldn't of know that unless I knew the dog... that was a nightmare moment for me... 

Too many poor experiences,, especially the Older women in another county well known for breeding CH shelties for decades,, because this self proclaim animal shelter owner in her area had a problem with the breeding kennels trying fine her with her made up authority and was ignored for being a lunatic,, just so happen was dating a Sheriff Deputy they were able to raid her house take her dogs, try to escalate charges, like they having it reported on the news of taking a 13 year old pregnant bitch who was actually spay'd 7 years prior to the raid, worse case of animal abuse in Colorado history.. with some pathetic news footage of spotless outdoor kennel areas. Every day it was the top news story worse case of animal abuse in Colorado history.. Think the woman was in her 70's or 80's something like $3000.00 a day to hold her dogs at the SPCA , guarded supervised visits she only got an hour a day to spend with them driving miles back in forth of where they were being held. We took care of her younger and puppies as they were not safe to be held at the SPCA facility. 3 months of a nightmare, going to court and winning and suing the daylights out of that county. All for what ,, personal ego of that one person who had issues and a foot hold on the local authorities to go along with it.. That breeder was lucky, loved by the dog community for all her years, donations flowed in to pay the SPCA bill,, because if she couldn't pay for boarding until court the dogs would become the property of the SPCA. Seeing the Gal during the process and at the end completely traumatized life changed forever..


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> *I just really, really want to know what proof of ownership is.
> 
> If it's not microchips, tags, license, and/or registration: WHAT IS IT?* Is it just having the animal for a certain amount of time without it being reclaimed? Is there a minimal requirement for trying to find the owner of the animal, if it's found? Obviously the stray hold in localities is known, but what happens if it's not upheld and the animal is transferred? Or the animal is found by an individuals?
> 
> Those are questions I used to think I knew the answer to, but depending on the ruling of this case, maybe not.


This is what I'm wondering too... I mean we got Toby from a shady situation - ex GF rehomed the dog while BF was in jail for beating her senseless. We paid nothing for him so there's no receipt, we have all of his first vet statement papers including the ones from his 'breeder', he's licensed with the city, his tags give our phone number, we've got every invoice from every vet visit, and he's being microchipped on the 21st during his surgery. By all accounts - he's ours... but is he?
Freaks me right out.


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I just really, really want to know what proof of ownership is.
> 
> If it's not microchips, tags, license, and/or registration: WHAT IS IT? Is it just having the animal for a certain amount of time without it being reclaimed? Is there a minimal requirement for trying to find the owner of the animal, if it's found? Obviously the stray hold in localities is known, but what happens if it's not upheld and the animal is transferred? Or the animal is found by an individuals?
> 
> Those are questions I used to think I knew the answer to, but depending on the ruling of this case, maybe not.


It's funny. I knew a women who had adopted a dog from a local animal shelter. About a week after owning the dog, she lost it when it had wandered off. She looked everywhere for the dog, and when it was nowhere to be found, she had assumed it had been eaten by an alligator (this took place in florida, and she had some gator ponds on her land). She moved on with her life, eventually adopted another dog, and had more or less forgotten about the whole ordeal. 

4 years later, she was got a phone call from the shelter going "Hey, we have your dog". The dog had apparently been turned in and they scanned the microchip that had her info registered on it from when she adopted the dog. She didn't believe it at first, but when she got to the shelter, it was indeed the same dog. Isn't that the way it's suppose to be? You microchip a dog so shelters and rescues can contact you when the dog is found? I mean, I just don't get this.


----------



## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> All this worry that some rescue is going to keep your purebred dog is extraordinarily overblown. No ethical breeder likes to be tarred with the BYB brush and certainly no ethical rescue wants to be associated with this kind of action, either. The far, far greater likelihood with a lost or missing dog that isn't returned home is that some random anonymous person is going to find and keep it or flip it on craigslist, not that a shelter or rescue is going to pull something shady to avoid returning it.
> 
> The anti-rescue sentiment on this board is really astonishing to me.


For every sketchy thing I have seen a breeder do... I have seen ten rescue people do something downright un ethical...


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

wanted to add this overview

http://www.bestinshowdaily.com/blog/pipers-saga-the-early-days-a-closer-look/


----------



## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

What is even going on with this woman.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/...death-and-birth-and-turned-it-into-something#


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Yeah, I was reading that earliar this evening.... Does anyone know when they are scheduled to go to court?


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I did ask directly if they had received any verification that Piper was still alive.. There response was no. I just can't imagine there isn't one authority in the US that can't get a verification if that dog is ok and alive.... Didn't this at some level go in front of a judge


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

To a degree - I understand why the shelter "owns" the dog.

BUT

I don't understand why they don't just give her back... especially since the owner said she would pay the adoption fee 

Not only that - but - this rescue has now gone the extra mile to say that 'Owner' and anybody affiliated will be automatically "disqualified" from the applications to adopt. She's even gone and said that anybody supporting the cause to bring Piper home is not allowed to adopt Piper. That's just insanity... and makes me seriously question whether or not this dog is alive... it seriously sounds like a giant cover-up so they don't get in trouble. - which they will when it all falls apart.


----------



## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I thought the dog thing was bad enough, but attempting to make a new will for a friend who was on her deathbed, and then robbing that friend's house of medication and ATM cards, forwarding all of her mail to a PO box no one knew about, and cleaning out her bank account... there is something incredibly mentally wrong with this woman. I can't believe her lawyer is helping her with all of this.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

This women needs to be in jail, along with the friend helping her, and her lawyer needs to be disbarred. What a disgrace they all are.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

penny sanderbeck is completely mental. what on earth.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I have to wonder how many more skeletons are in her closet.


----------



## Godwit (Apr 7, 2014)

All of this stuff is being documented and recorded, how is she still getting away with it all?? And what's her and goal here? She seriously needs help.


----------



## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Any news about the court case? I think they were supposed to be in court yesterday???


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

What I don't understand is why Sanderbeck would talk to the Meredith family about Piper. There didn't seem to be any connection between the Merediths and COSR (unless I missed something). But, I'm thinking like a rational person and Sanderbeck, obviously, is not.


----------



## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

As if the Piper situation wasn't bad enough, the whole Meredith thing is making me nauseous. That Penny Sanderbeck is disgusting.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

cookieface said:


> What I don't understand is why Sanderbeck would talk to the Meredith family about Piper. There didn't seem to be any connection between the Merediths and COSR (unless I missed something). But, I'm thinking like a rational person and Sanderbeck, obviously, is not.


she just wanted to gloat that she stole someone's dog i'm sure. she also wanted to give them the dog.


----------



## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Kayota said:


> she just wanted to gloat that she stole someone's dog i'm sure. she also wanted to give them the dog.


Yeah, I get that. But if my friend were on her death bed, I certainly wouldn't tell her that "I'm the kind of person who steals other people's dogs and make them suffer*." Nor would I offer a dog to a family with so much going on their lives. It simply doesn't make sense, but, again, Sanderbeck doesn't sound like the most stable person.

* There's a word for people like that, but it probably would get me banned.


----------



## ForTheLoveOfDogs (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm seriously starting to think this person has a mental issue... I mean for real.


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

The thing about the whole Piper being dead theory is that if she is indeed dead, given that it wasn't due to neglect or abuse on the rescues part, why not just say so and return the body to the rightful owner, and just end all this?

I could be completely wrong about this, I have been before. But I still firmly believe this is just a matter of one very egotistical lady who won't admit she's wrong.


----------



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

RCloud said:


> The thing about the whole Piper being dead theory is that if she is indeed dead, given that it wasn't due to neglect or abuse on the rescues part, why not just say so and return the body to the rightful owner, and just end all this?
> 
> I could be completely wrong about this, I have been before. But I still firmly believe this is just a matter of one very egotistical lady who won't admit she's wrong.


judging by the merediths' description of sanderbeck's home im willing to bet she could easily neglect a dog to death.


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Kayota said:


> judging by the merediths' description of sanderbeck's home im willing to bet she could easily neglect a dog to death.


But that's just heresay. If pictures appear of the inside of her house, or a police report gives an official statement, then I'd be more likely to believe that. Don't get me wrong, I think the lady is absolutely nuts, I'm just trying to be fair and not make accusations based on rumors.


----------



## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

A Pre-trial date has been set for Oct. 24.


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Thanks for the update, I've been wanting to know for a while when this would get to court.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

article:::::

Animal Welfare Act: Can APHIS Save Piper?

http://www.yankee-shelties.com/animal-welfare-act.html


----------



## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

PatriciafromCO said:


> article:::::
> 
> Animal Welfare Act: Can APHIS Save Piper?
> 
> http://www.yankee-shelties.com/animal-welfare-act.html


 Haha, that would be hilarious because people who hate rescues really hate the AWA and APHIS . But what she brings up is interesting. . .5-day hold period is required by federal law? I know a LOT of people whose pets were killed after a 48/72-hour stray hold, so. . .well, obviously local animal control agencies don't care about federal mandates. Hmm. If that happened to my pet I think I'd sue based on that, just for fun .


----------



## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Haha, that would be hilarious because people who hate rescues really hate the AWA and APHIS . But what she brings up is interesting. . .5-day hold period is required by federal law? I know a LOT of people whose pets were killed after a 48/72-hour stray hold, so. . .well, obviously local animal control agencies don't care about federal mandates. Hmm. If that happened to my pet I think I'd sue based on that, just for fun .


It's times like this I wish there was a "like" button for this site.


----------



## Godwit (Apr 7, 2014)

This was definitely worth the read! Hopefully it helps...
I especially liked this part:


> (I was gonna say every penny, but thought better of it.)


ROFL


----------

