# Best collar for a stubborn dog?



## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

I've been using a Gentle Leader head collar on Domino which has been helping a lot with her pulling but I'm starting to worry about it. While it does work tons better than a regular collar, she does still pull some and sometimes I notice little pink marks across where the nose strap goes. Granted, Domino has very short white hair and pink skin so these kinds of things will show up on her easily. But either way I'm concerned about it irritating her skin.

I've considered trying a pinch collar. Like most people I am wary about them but I'm willing to give it a shot. There are several trainers where I work, as well as pinches I could use for trial, so I would definitely get advise on the best way to go about using it.

My question is this, do you guys think this will work any better? Since she's so stubborn and does her best to ignore discomfort, I'm afraid she'll still pull on the pinch and I don't want her injuring herself or just irritating her skin in a different area.


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## Jak (Sep 17, 2007)

I was in your exact situation a few months ago. When I used the Head Harness with Jak, he would pull so strongly that it would leave imprints on his face, after one night where it came way too close to hurting his eye, I decided to stop using it.

I ended up using the prong/pinch collar and it works way better than both the Gentle Leader Head Harness and Easy Walk Harness. Jak is a husky and a rescued stray, so he would pull really hard, but now I have him under control. (Its not a heel, but I don't mind  ) He didn't show any response to the discomfort from the other two, but he is much more responsive with the prong. So I'd say definitely try it out.

When you put it on keep it right under the chin, and snug enough not to fall down, because if you put in on your dog's throat you'll risk a throat injury. [http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm]

Edit: Oh! And by the way, I don't "pop" the prong collar at all. I really don't see any need to, if you slow down or stop and your dog keeps pulling they just reach the end and correct themselves, same dynamic as all the other training aids.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

What kind of training are you doing in addition to the tool?


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

Jak - Thanks for the info, that's good to hear! I'll give it a shot if I don't manage to get this head harness thing worked out.

Curb - Well I did the initial getting used to it routine although sometimes she does still try to mess with the nose strap, not usually during the walk but on our way back in. When she does this I walk her along faster so she can't stop to use her feet and then it only gets taken off after she sits calmly and leaves it alone. For corrections I do what the booklet it came with said about gently pulling up with the lead. Maybe I need to make her stop and sit anytime she starts pulling on it? This will be a lot of stopping and sitting but whatever works.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

leesuh said:


> Curb - Well I did the initial getting used to it routine although sometimes she does still try to mess with the nose strap, not usually during the walk but on our way back in. When she does this I walk her along faster so she can't stop to use her feet and then it only gets taken off after she sits calmly and leaves it alone. For corrections I do what the booklet it came with said about gently pulling up with the lead. Maybe I need to make her stop and sit anytime she starts pulling on it? This will be a lot of stopping and sitting but whatever works.


I think you need to take a step back and teach her why being at your side is the most rewarding. Is she food motivated? Have you read the sticky on loose leash walking?


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## helen01 (Mar 21, 2008)

i've been through that many collars, chocker's and also the gentle leader. none worked with jade, until i got a harness, it's a lot better, no pulling on her neck or head or nose, it goes around her body, with the lead at the top of her body. so i guess it's just trial and error. good luck.


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I think you need to take a step back and teach her why being at your side is the most rewarding. Is she food motivated? Have you read the sticky on loose leash walking?


Yes she's very food modivated and yeah I have read that sticky. Okay, I'll work on it more before switching collars. I think you're right, she just needs better manners. I certainly wouldn't want to rely on a training collar forever! Thanks. 



helen01 said:


> i've been through that many collars, chocker's and also the gentle leader. none worked with jade, until i got a harness, it's a lot better, no pulling on her neck or head or nose, it goes around her body, with the lead at the top of her body. so i guess it's just trial and error. good luck.


That's cool that the harness worked for Jade. I've never had good luck with regular harnesses since they allow for more pulling. I used one on Jasmine for awhile not long after I first got her because she pulled on her collar so much. It didn't hurt her neck and make her cough like her collar was, but she still pulled a lot. I ended up using the Gentle Leader easy walk harness with her for awhile which worked great and now she's great on just her regular collar.


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## helen01 (Mar 21, 2008)

glad to hear that your training is working. i hope you can both jasmine and domino under your control soon and you can all enjoy your walks.


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

helen01 said:


> glad to hear that your training is working. i hope you can both jasmine and domino under your control soon and you can all enjoy your walks.


We're getting there.  Thanks!


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## meanderer (Mar 26, 2008)

The prong collar is an excellent tool if you use it right and size it right.

Here is a good link to sizing and other info on prong collars... http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

meanderer said:


> The prong collar is an excellent tool if you use it right and size it right.
> 
> Here is a good link to sizing and other info on prong collars... http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm


Thanks for the info!


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

I bought one of these  this past weekend and have been using it for a few days and I have to praise it completely..it's amazing and I'm thrilled with it! Rosco was pulling me like crazy and now, after just a few days, he walks right beside me with plenty of loose leash to spare. Every once in awhile he tries to gallop into full speed but immediately relaxes and glances back at me. It's my new best friend, so much so that I bought a second one off of eBay so that I can finally walk my dogs together (which was always a challenge because they want to race constantly!)


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## helen01 (Mar 21, 2008)

that training halter is pretty close to the halter i use on jade, only our's is a bit thicker where it goes around the body and the chest. but it works.


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

I have only skimmed the responses so if this has already been suggested....oops.

The Halti brand no pull (front leash attachment) harness is the best one that I have ever carried in my tool kit.
http://www.petexpertise.com/item--Halti-Harness-No-Pull-Harness--halti_harn.html

I'm not a fan of any tools that add aversives to social or learning situations so I was really happy to find something that provides as much or more control without causing pain or discomfort. Of course this tool, like any other is simply that, and only provides pain free control while training progresses.

The reason that I like this brand better than any other front attachment harnesses is that it has the secondary clip that pulls the chest strap up to the collar. This provides the added safety of having it secured to the collar and it keeps the chest stap from riding too low, which is a huge problem with the Easy walk version. I've seen large breeds end up falling onto their sternums wearing the Easy walk harness.

The sizes are great too. The mediums can fit so many breeds, there is so much room for adjustment. I have smaller pits using the medium yet my 85 lb. very deep chested girl still fits the medium. The large is really only for mastiffs and other extra large breeds. The small size doesn't fit anything smaller than a regular sized beagle.


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

Roscosmom said:


> I bought one of these  this past weekend and have been using it for a few days and I have to praise it completely..it's amazing and I'm thrilled with it! Rosco was pulling me like crazy and now, after just a few days, he walks right beside me with plenty of loose leash to spare. Every once in awhile he tries to gallop into full speed but immediately relaxes and glances back at me. It's my new best friend, so much so that I bought a second one off of eBay so that I can finally walk my dogs together (which was always a challenge because they want to race constantly!)


I checked it out but I don't think I quite understand how it works. How does it stop them from pulling?



mydogspot said:


> I have only skimmed the responses so if this has already been suggested....oops.
> 
> The Halti brand no pull (front leash attachment) harness is the best one that I have ever carried in my tool kit.
> http://www.petexpertise.com/item--Halti-Harness-No-Pull-Harness--halti_harn.html


I've tried the Easy Walk on her and it fit her fine (I know what you mean about them falling low though, it did that some with Jasmine). It just didn't keep her from pulling as much as the head halter. That clip to the collar is a neat little added feature but I imagine it works mostly the same?


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## Roscosmom (Nov 24, 2007)

leesuh said:


> I checked it out but I don't think I quite understand how it works. How does it stop them from pulling?


Those straps that go under the legs are brought together with an adjustable clasp, connected with a ring that you hook the leash to. So when they yank away it pulls at the leash and tightens around their legs. It all seems very simple so I'm not quite sure what it is _exactly_ that makes them not pull. From what I can tell- it must make them feel like their feet are going to slip beneath them and their face will hit the ground when they pull away- so they don't do it.


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

Roscosmom said:


> Those straps that go under the legs are brought together with an adjustable clasp, connected with a ring that you hook the leash to. So when they yank away it pulls at the leash and tightens around their legs. It all seems very simple so I'm not quite sure what it is _exactly_ that makes them not pull. From what I can tell- it must make them feel like their feet are going to slip beneath them and their face will hit the ground when they pull away- so they don't do it.


Oh I see, interesting!


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## Chindo_Gae_Cerberus (Mar 24, 2008)

Personally, between either a Martinegale (aka greyhound/sight hound collar, etc.) or a slip lead training collar (aka choke chain) and the Halti I've never met a dog I couldn't teach to walk with one of those yet. 

It's all about the dog, all about you, and how well the collar/harness devise is properly adjusted and used. 

My default collar for almost all breeds is the half chain Martingale.


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

leesuh said:


> I checked it out but I don't think I quite understand how it works. How does it stop them from pulling?
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried the Easy Walk on her and it fit her fine (I know what you mean about them falling low though, it did that some with Jasmine). It just didn't keep her from pulling as much as the head halter. That clip to the collar is a neat little added feature but I imagine it works mostly the same?


First, OMG...your dogs are so gorgeous. I love the markings!

I actually find that the floating front clip of the Halti brand does give more control than the Easy Walk brand (dog turns to face you and looses leverage). Again, nothing repalces training as I'm sure you already know but using a head collar or any other device that adds an element of discomfort can add it's own set of problems, though I know they often do give more power steering. I'm only 4'9" and just under 100 lbs. and I haven't met a dog yet that when properly fitted in the Halti harness, I can't control while training. Head collars definitely do give a bit more bang for your buck but they are hell to habituate your dog to and they can interrupt body language to the point of creating other issues.

I would only ever use a martingale collar for a sight hound, I still find that dogs acclimate to the choking effect and they have little value as a control tool. I honestly don't consider any tool a 'training' tool. JMO of course..


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

mydogspot said:


> First, OMG...your dogs are so gorgeous. I love the markings!


Thank you! 



mydogspot said:


> Head collars definitely do give a bit more bang for your buck but they are hell to habituate your dog to and they can interrupt body language to the point of creating other issues.


Hm, what kind of body language issues have come up?

I could always go back to the Easy Walk if I needed to (and I'm sure I could find a way to clip it to her collar so I wouldn't have to dish out money for that other one). I just kind of like having the head control I have with the head collar. It's harder to give corrections with the EW.


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

leesuh said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Many of a dogs body language cues come from the head/ear carrige. I'm sure that you've noticed the difference in the way that your dog carries himself with one on. Again, I can certainly understand why someone would want to use a head collar. They can make an amazing difference in the ability for your dog to pull but I think the little bit of control given up by switching to a no pull harness is worth what you get in return.
I had a gal in class attach her Easy way harness up to the collar using a coupler. It worked better but was still missing the floating front clip...not sure if that makes a noticable difference.
I should also mention that it is never adviseable to do any kind of leash corrections with a head collar on. Not meant to be taken the wrong way but they really aren't meant for anything but control.


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## Chindo_Gae_Cerberus (Mar 24, 2008)

mydogspot said:


> I would only ever use a martingale collar for a sight hound, I still find that dogs acclimate to the choking effect and they have little value as a control tool. I honestly don't consider any tool a 'training' tool. JMO of course..


It is not designed for choking. 
That is using it incorrectly. 

It's soul purpose is to not slip off over the head, and used to help the dog maintain attention on you during training sessions. 

Any collar can choke, any collar can hurt, when in the wrong hands.


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

Chindo_Gae_Cerberus said:


> It is not designed for choking.
> That is using it incorrectly.
> 
> It's soul purpose is to not slip off over the head, and used to help the dog maintain attention on you during training sessions.
> ...


I agree that the theory is that it is not MEANT to choke but as you know that is exactly what happens to the dogs of 90%+ of people who use them.

I see this constantly and it's the reason that I don't allow them in class. I'm all to familiar with the propaganda around their use. I've used every tool in the book, martingales included but find them an ineffective control tool and dangerous in the wrong hands (which again, is the majority of the population).

In order to use a martingale, +P methods must be in place and I just don't see the point when Loose Leash walking can be taught without the choking that does occur during the learning phase with these collars. 

A no pull harness on the other hand, adds no aversives to trigger situations, does not require much, if any skill, does not need to be habituated, and adds more control while learning continues. All without the risk of injury.

I do the behavior consults. for our greyhound rescue and you'd be amazed how many of the owners, fosters and staff now use no-pull harness while leash manners are being taught. Martingales, only the very wide ones, are then used for these skinny headed beauties once the desired behaviors are proofed.


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## K9 Conversation (Feb 18, 2008)

i have a German Shepherd that was pulling and got a Sporn harness. it helped quite a bit. you can buy them at petsmart.


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

mydogspot said:


> Many of a dogs body language cues come from the head/ear carrige. I'm sure that you've noticed the difference in the way that your dog carries himself with one on. Again, I can certainly understand why someone would want to use a head collar. They can make an amazing difference in the ability for your dog to pull but I think the little bit of control given up by switching to a no pull harness is worth what you get in return.
> I had a gal in class attach her Easy way harness up to the collar using a coupler. It worked better but was still missing the floating front clip...not sure if that makes a noticable difference.


I thought about then when considering the head collar but didn't see how it would hinder her body language (besides not being able to pull forward). The only difference I've ever noticed is her being calmer when I put it on.



mydogspot said:


> I should also mention that it is never adviseable to do any kind of leash corrections with a head collar on. Not meant to be taken the wrong way but they really aren't meant for anything but control.


The booklet it came with said to gently pull up and forward to give corrections. Of course I would never try to "pop" her with it or jerk it in any way. Is there any reason why the up and forward thing would be bad?


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

leesuh said:


> I thought about then when considering the head collar but didn't see how it would hinder her body language (besides not being able to pull forward). The only difference I've ever noticed is her being calmer when I put it on.
> 
> *Oops, I think I called her a him...sorry. You know, the way I see it is if she isn't 'folding' when you use it and you're getting the control that you need without her fussing with it, then I think you should continue with what works. I do know dogs who adjust so nicely, never try to rub them off (usually because they were properly habituated) and really do well with them.*
> 
> ...


That surprises me, what brand is it? Also, have you seen the Newtrix version? Of any of the head collars, this is my favorite one. Not that I'm saying that you shoud change what you have but if you ever need a replacement for the one you have, have a look - It works on opposition reflex so the leash attaches to the back of the head instead of the chin.
http://www.newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts02.php


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

mydogspot said:


> That surprises me, what brand is it? Also, have you seen the Newtrix version? Of any of the head collars, this is my favorite one. Not that I'm saying that you shoud change what you have but if you ever need a replacement for the one you have, have a look - It works on opposition reflex so the leash attaches to the back of the head instead of the chin.
> http://www.newtrix.ca/docs/ourproducts02.php


It's a Gentle Leader. When you say that surprises you, do you mean that in a good way or bad? It does work with Domino, I think mainly because it forces her attention back on me.

She definitely doesn't fold but she does try to paw at it sometimes (or rub her face on her sister or me - annoying) but it's not too often and we're working on it.

Besides that Newtrix collar looking complicated to put on  it looks like it's more comfortable for the dog. Does it work as well with it hooking in the back like that?


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## French Ring (Mar 29, 2008)

Since you said that your dog is motivated with food, why don't you start teaching him to heel first? In order to teach him to heel, you will need to start somewhere with no distract. First I start with my bedroom then the backyard, then the living room, then family room, then front yard, then down the street, and then to the park where there's many people are around. 

If I have a dog that pulls, I use a clicker to get what I want then I reward the dog with food, praise, or toy. All dogs I have taught were on their flat collar with a leash. I do find prong collar to be useful in training, but there is other way to teach the dog not to pull. If you want a faster result, you probably will use it with a prong collar. 

When you use a prong collar on the dog, please remember to keep the leash loose and relax. When the dog is pulling or walking past your side, you jerk the leash and be sure to keep the leash loose again. If you don't do that, the prong collar no longer work. I have seen people using a prong collar in the wrong way and their dogs keep pulling them. The prong collar is supposed to held right behind the dog's ears. If it kept falling to the lower neck, then the collar is way too lose. It is not supposed to move down so you need to remove a few chips from the prong collar to make it more tight.


An example of how to teach your dog to heel. 

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wOue4nJEQmw


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

French Ring said:


> Since you said that your dog is motivated with food, why don't you start teaching him to heel first? In order to teach him to heel, you will need to start somewhere with no distract. First I start with my bedroom then the backyard, then the living room, then family room, then front yard, then down the street, and then to the park where there's many people are around.
> 
> If I have a dog that pulls, I use a clicker to get what I want then I reward the dog with food, praise, or toy. All dogs I have taught were on their flat collar with a leash. I do find prong collar to be useful in training, but there is other way to teach the dog not to pull. If you want a faster result, you probably will use it with a prong collar.


I am working on heel with her but I need something to help with her until she's got it so that I can still take her out for walks and to go out somewhere. I don't want to use the head collar (or prong) forever.

Thanks for the info.


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## mydogspot (Mar 25, 2008)

leesuh said:


> It's a Gentle Leader. When you say that surprises you, do you mean that in a good way or bad? It does work with Domino, I think mainly because it forces her attention back on me.
> 
> *It surprises me because most trainers and I believe another manufacturer as well is very clear about the dangers of leash corrections using a head collar. This is due to the point of connection and risk of injury to the cervical spine. Having said that though, all 'corrections' are not created equal. While some may be very harsh and risky, yours may be simply attention getting and quite benign.*
> 
> ...


*You're so right, the newtrix is absolutely more complicated to put on. It's a major drawback of this collar but it does work much better than the more typical chin attachment brands. It provides more control and comfort as well as being less likely to cause injury in the event of an accidental cloths lining or harsh correction.*


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## leesuh (Mar 2, 2008)

mydogspot said:


> *It surprises me because most trainers and I believe another manufacturer as well is very clear about the dangers of leash corrections using a head collar. This is due to the point of connection and risk of injury to the cervical spine. Having said that though, all 'corrections' are not created equal. While some may be very harsh and risky, yours may be simply attention getting and quite benign.*


I keep them very benign, I wouldn't want to hurt the little stinker. 



mydogspot said:


> *You're so right, the newtrix is absolutely more complicated to put on. It's a major drawback of this collar but it does work much better than the more typical chin attachment brands. It provides more control and comfort as well as being less likely to cause injury in the event of an accidental cloths lining or harsh correction.*


Very cool, I may look into getting one.


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