# Too much protein in kibbles??



## kenRC51 (Mar 7, 2008)

Has anyone have a problem feeding grain-less or kibbles with too high protein content?

Stitch is on Innova Evo red meat, and I am thinking of switching her to something with a lower meat content. Why? Stitch is an English Bulldog, and she inactive and I think that give her so much protein might be a waste of kibbles because she won't be burning the energy the protein is give her. 

I'm thinking about switching her to TOTW fish, its grain-less but was lower in protein. If grain-less then TOTW if grains then probably Wellness fish, or Nature Variety's Prairie Salmon meal.

What you guys think?


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I feed the TOTW pacific smoked salmon grain free & I love it so far. I just switched so perhaps someone with more experience will chime in. But TOTW has 4 varieties & they are all grain free & very good. There also some sites that can help you in your research, they list the ingredients of different foods so you can compare for yourself:

www.dogfoodanalysis.com
www.dogfoodproject.com
www.dogfoodscoop.com


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Dogs gain weight from carbs, not protein. Protein helps them maintain lean body mass. If she gains weight, just cut back on her portions a bit.


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## kenRC51 (Mar 7, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Dogs gain weight from carbs, not protein. Protein helps them maintain lean body mass. If she gains weight, just cut back on her portions a bit.


Yes you are right, but its not the weight I am concern of. Its the protein, since my dog is very lazy and sleep like 75% of the day then the extra protein might be a waste. But of course if I switch to grain formula I might have a chance of Sittch gaining weight.


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## Deeken (Feb 14, 2011)

My concern with high protein diets isn't the waste, its the potential impact on the kidneys. There hasn't been enough research on it yet but I know of several dogs who had abnormal kidney values on really high protein diets like Orijen and Evo. Owner's took them off it and kidney values normalized. Is the protein actually harming the kidneys- don't know but its not something that I would be willing to play around with. I do feed a grain free diet but won't go above 32% or so protein because of this.


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## kenRC51 (Mar 7, 2008)

Deeken said:


> My concern with high protein diets isn't the waste, its the potential impact on the kidneys. There hasn't been enough research on it yet but I know of several dogs who had abnormal kidney values on really high protein diets like Orijen and Evo. Owner's took them off it and kidney values normalized. Is the protein actually harming the kidneys- don't know but its not something that I would be willing to play around with. I do feed a grain free diet but won't go above 32% or so protein because of this.


Yeah, I have read that some dogs urine has crystals in them.


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

kenRC51 said:


> since my dog is very lazy and sleep like 75% of the day


Let me start off by apologizing for offending you. I don't know anything about your dog or your situation, but I'm just going to go ahead and say this anyway:

Is your dog really old or hurt or something?

Has he/she seen a vet for lethargy? It could be a medical issue. The dog could be feeling badly for some reason. Or it could be a pain issue that a vet can help with. I've seen old dogs get new spunk with just a couple of prevacid pills.

Do you encourage the dog to move at all? Do you take the dog on walks? Many dogs don't entertain themselves well. When pet parents don't walk or play with them, then they have two choices:
- Find things to do that the pet parent doesn't like - like chewing and digging
- Or just lay around

Even old dogs need exercise. When my Akita mix was younger, we'd go for for hour long walks maybe once a day. Well maybe 30 minutes in the morning then an hour in the evening.
When he got old and his hips went bad, we still went for walks. We just walked more slowly and I took him on 3 to 4 twenty minute walks rather than 1 long hour walk.

Is he not moving because he is over weight? Then them get him moving and feed him less.

Now back to the original subject. I have read that too much protein can cause kidney issues. But I've also read that many folks feed their dogs nothing put protein - Raw Prey Model Diet. So I have no idea what is best. 

I would just try to make sure the dog food doesn't have a lot "bad stuff" in it. 
Artifical colors
meat sources that arent' named
etc..
A good non biased site is http://dogfoodanalysis.com/
(maybe somone already posted that?)

Sorry again for making assumptions.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Gran-free does not mean carb-free...

Too much protein CAN exacerbate behavioral problems, FYI, but NOT the grain-free kibble-type protein. If you feed like exclusively meat or too much meat with no balanced healthy carbs, that can cause issues.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

lisak_87 said:


> Too much protein CAN exacerbate behavioral problems, FYI, but NOT the grain-free kibble-type protein. If you feed like exclusively meat or too much meat with no balanced healthy carbs, that can cause issues.


There are a lot of people who feed prey-model raw. . .and I've never heard of behavioral issues from doing so. What kind of behavioral problems do you mean?

Personally, I think most food-related behavioral problems are from the sugar and food coloring in foods like Beneful. The FDA doesn't recognize that in this country, though. . .

OP, what do you mean about "wasting protein"? Do you mean that EVO is too expensive? If so, switch to something more affordable, no shame in that (as long as it's a decent food). But if that's not the problem, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

My dogs eat prey model raw, nothing but meat, organs and bone. All their kidney levels come back with in normal range as does the rest of their yearly bloodwork, nor do we have any dogs here with behavioral problems???
My dogs have different energy levels than when they were on kibble, more or less better stamina I have noticed.


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## Deeken (Feb 14, 2011)

Wimble Woof said:


> My dogs eat prey model raw, nothing but meat, organs and bone. All their kidney levels come back with in normal range as does the rest of their yearly bloodwork, nor do we have any dogs here with behavioral problems???
> My dogs have different energy levels than when they were on kibble, more or less better stamina I have noticed.


Prey model raw is not the same as a high protein kibble. Raw food is mostly water. Sure the primary energy source is protein but that protein is being ingested with PLENTY of water for proper kidney processing. Raw food is actually fairly low in protein when you are looking at it as a % of protein per weight ingested. High protein kibble is a totally different story. Kibble is dried out so all the water for processing through the kidneys has to be consumed separately. Some people soak the kibble to help with this but IMO, its still not enough water to process these high amount of protein through the kidneys. Its rough on the kidneys which is why many dogs eating high protein kibbles come back with kidney values that are way outside of the normal range.

ETA: My problem with high protein kibbles is NOT protein being the primary energy source, its the ability of the kidneys to safely process that amount of protein. A concern that doesn't arise from raw feeding.


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## flipgirl (Oct 5, 2007)

Willowy said:


> There are a lot of people who feed prey-model raw. . .and I've never heard of behavioral issues from doing so. What kind of behavioral problems do you mean?
> 
> Personally, I think most food-related behavioral problems are from the sugar and food coloring in foods like Beneful. The FDA doesn't recognize that in this country, though. . .
> 
> OP, what do you mean about "wasting protein"? Do you mean that EVO is too expensive? If so, switch to something more affordable, no shame in that (as long as it's a decent food). But if that's not the problem, I wouldn't worry about it.


Lol Willowy, your comment about Beneful just reminded me of a comment a vet said to a client recently. He asked a client what she was feeding her dog and she said Beneful. Her concern about her dog was calcium oxylate crystals. Anyway, the doctor said that the food he was recommending (RC Urinary SO) has all the good things that Beneful does but is formulated to dissolve crystals. Ha! Urinary SO must be a really bad food to have all the good thiings Beneful has! 

IMHO, I think if your dog is doing well on EVO, why change it? My only concern would be that protein can cause dehydration so as long as he is getting enough water he should be okay. However, I think that you also should be exercising your dog more. Bulldogs are not necessarily active dogs like a husky would be but they still need exercise, not just for weight maintenance but for a healthy heart, healthy muscles, healthy brain...and healthy everything.


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## kenRC51 (Mar 7, 2008)

Puddin's Training Tips said:


> Let me start off by apologizing for offending you. I don't know anything about your dog or your situation, but I'm just going to go ahead and say this anyway:
> 
> Is your dog really old or hurt or something?
> 
> ...



No offensive taken. Stitch move in fact she can run fast but just for a little bit because she gets tired. Why I posted this thread it because I think that Stitch is burning her extra protein by barking at weird noise she hears some times. At time when I'm near her and don't hear a noise she just starts barking like she sees something or hear some thing. Stitch has been on Evo for over 5 years now but never really bark until about 2 or less years ago. Can it be because of her getting parinoid because of her old age or too much protein in her diet that she needs to burn off?




Willowy said:


> There are a lot of people who feed prey-model raw. . .and I've never heard of behavioral issues from doing so. What kind of behavioral problems do you mean?
> 
> Personally, I think most food-related behavioral problems are from the sugar and food coloring in foods like Beneful. The FDA doesn't recognize that in this country, though. . .
> 
> OP, what do you mean about "wasting protein"? Do you mean that EVO is too expensive? If so, switch to something more affordable, no shame in that (as long as it's a decent food). But if that's not the problem, I wouldn't worry about it.


Evo is not too expensive, nothing that will change my life style to pay for it. Been feeding her EVO for over 5 years now. What I meant by wasting protein is when human consume protein (protein bar) before and after a workout is so that they can burn the protein they ate for energy. Now, we human know that if we are going to workout or do something extensive we eat a little more before the workout to give us energy. As for dog, they cannot control this because we feed them every day no matter if they are burning enough calories proportionate to their intake. 

So in Stitch, I think that she is not burning enough calories to what she eats, therefor leading her to bark a lot. 



flipgirl said:


> Lol Willowy, your comment about Beneful just reminded me of a comment a vet said to a client recently. He asked a client what she was feeding her dog and she said Beneful. Her concern about her dog was calcium oxylate crystals. Anyway, the doctor said that the food he was recommending (RC Urinary SO) has all the good things that Beneful does but is formulated to dissolve crystals. Ha! Urinary SO must be a really bad food to have all the good thiings Beneful has!
> 
> IMHO, I think if your dog is doing well on EVO, why change it? My only concern would be that protein can cause dehydration so as long as he is getting enough water he should be okay. However, I think that you also should be exercising your dog more. Bulldogs are not necessarily active dogs like a husky would be but they still need exercise, not just for weight maintenance but for a healthy heart, healthy muscles, healthy brain...and healthy everything.



To me I think that Stitch does well on EVO, her stools are hard and eats them up very quick. I just read some article that too much protein might stress the kidney and cause crystal in her urine, that what made me concern. Stitch has not had her urine tested or having urination problem. I just like to be on the safe side if what I read was true.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

Raw fed Max's high intake of protein resulted in a dog with more muscle, not more nervous energy. The carbs in EVO could be contributing to the barking. Or that barking could be from something else. Max didn't bark when Chico first arrived but now he does. Chico is is now his buddy and they back each other up, lucky us. I hope to keep him from meeting Fluffy next door or we will really have a noisy block!


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## doggies5 (Apr 21, 2011)

To be sure, you may need to ask your vet.


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## poodlepuff (Apr 23, 2011)

Hello guys!
I have a degree in Animal Science. Animal Science course focuses on animal nutrition and welfare. As a part of my degree I had to take a full semester of companion animal nutrition. 
Some of you have expressed concerns that high protein (HP) diets can cause health problems in dogs. You are absolutely right to have that concern, we do see HP diets backfiring after they have been on the market for a considerable amount of time. The main wrong assumption people make is the dogs are carnivores and physiologically it is not true. Dogs are omnivorous predators, as opposed to cats who are obligate carnivores. Dogs require just slightly more protein than humans do. They, as opposed to cats, have intestinal amylases that digest carbohydrates pretty much as efficiently as we can. 
Taking into account that our dogs don't have to hunt for they food ( meaning they do not run 300 miles/day and do not eat once a week like wolves do) their everyday protein and energy requirements are much lower than those of their ancestors. Moreover, as Deeken pointed out, raw meat is mostly water so it is not as high in protein as it seems. Comparing raw food to HP kibble is like comparing a glass of milk to a glass of milk powder. Moreover, in case of Evo, it is also extremely high in fat (42% protein and 22% fat) this makes it equivalent to bacon! So the issue we see in dogs fed this and some other kibbles is pancreatitis, not so much kidney problems (kidney problems need more time to develop, however we do see those too).
In general, not all dogs will develop problems, but a good number do, thus there is a risk. I never recommend feeding dogs these diets specifically because of this and the fact that there are healthier and safer alternatives. 

Cheers!


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## Puddin's Training Tips (Apr 9, 2011)

poodlepuff said:


> Hello guys!
> I never recommend feeding dogs these diets specifically because of this and the fact that there are healthier and safer alternatives.


What are the healthier and safer alternatives?


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

Puddin's Training Tips said:


> What are the healthier and safer alternatives?


lower protein foods, and there are quality ones.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

kenRC51 said:


> Has anyone have a problem feeding grain-less or kibbles with too high protein content?
> 
> Stitch is on Innova Evo red meat, and I am thinking of switching her to something with a lower meat content. Why? Stitch is an English Bulldog, and she inactive and I think that give her so much protein might be a waste of kibbles because she won't be burning the energy the protein is give her.
> 
> ...


I'm rotating the Pacific Stream and the newer Sierra Mountain (lamb) which is also 25%


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## poodlepuff (Apr 23, 2011)

Healthy dog food should contain around 25% +- 5% protein and around 15% fat. Brands that like: Natural Balance, Fromm, Go/Now pretty much all are within those numbers (except for endurance formulas) and are made out of high quality ingredients. 
Another alternative is Raw Food. I am not a huge fan because of bacterial contamination issues, as well as of the fact that raw diets are sometimes poorly balanced. Still they are waaaaaaaaay healthier than high protein/fat kibbles.


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## kenRC51 (Mar 7, 2008)

Pawzk9 said:


> I'm rotating the Pacific Stream and the newer Sierra Mountain (lamb) which is also 25%


I think I'm gonna try to Pacific Stream. Stitch had been on the TOTW Prairies (buffalo, lamb, chicken) she did fine. Just a little concern of the Pacific Stream, if Stitch's breath might smell like fish? Non of my dogs have been on fish kibbles before. From the smell of the kibbles on the sample pack I have smells fishy. Has any of your dog's breath smell like fish because of the fish kibbles?


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

kenRC51 said:


> I think I'm gonna try to Pacific Stream. Stitch had been on the TOTW Prairies (buffalo, lamb, chicken) she did fine. Just a little concern of the Pacific Stream, if Stitch's breath might smell like fish? Non of my dogs have been on fish kibbles before. From the smell of the kibbles on the sample pack I have smells fishy. Has any of your dog's breath smell like fish because of the fish kibbles?


Hallie and Peanut both hated Pacific Stream and loved Wetlands. Of course every dog is different, but they sure can be picky!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

kenRC51 said:


> I think I'm gonna try to Pacific Stream. Stitch had been on the TOTW Prairies (buffalo, lamb, chicken) she did fine. Just a little concern of the Pacific Stream, if Stitch's breath might smell like fish? Non of my dogs have been on fish kibbles before. From the smell of the kibbles on the sample pack I have smells fishy. Has any of your dog's breath smell like fish because of the fish kibbles?


I don't think my dogs have fish breath from the Pacific Stream (but they do occasionally from salmon oil). Honestly, I don't think the food smells that that strong.


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## rawnora (Apr 25, 2011)

It's been hinted at but nobody has actually pointed out that it's not the percentage of protein in kibble that creates problems for the urinary tract, but the fact that they are rendered indigestible by the high temperatures they are subjected to in processing. Anything that's not recognizable can't be broken down, absorbed and assimilated. So for anyone wanting to avoid kidney problems, the answer is not to avoid feeding protein, since dogs are adapted to thrive on a very high protein diet. The solution is to feed only proteins that are raw and fully digestible.

Best wishes,
Nora
www.NoMoreVetBills.com


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

rawnora said:


> the fact that they are rendered indigestible by the high temperatures they are subjected to in processing. Anything that's not recognizable can't be broken down, absorbed and assimilated. ]


There is a long list of studies that say otherwise. Any links to back up your claim?


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## rawnora (Apr 25, 2011)

Unfortunately, there isn’t much truly scientific inquiry taking place to determine the dangers of feeding cooked proteins to carnivores. The only exception I’m aware of is the work that Frances Pottenger did with cats in the 1940s. 

Bear in mind that most “scientific” studies these days are conducted with the goal of creating or testing a product for the market. Even seemingly academic sources of new “scientific” information are not without financial incentive. They are all or partially paid for by the government, which has morphed into a partnership between public and private, for-profit entities. 

Having said that, I did find the quote below from an article by Dr. Jeannie Thomason at www.TheWholeDog.org, and www.RawFoodExplained.com has lots of generic references to the damage that is done to protein by cooking (from a human health standpoint). I'm sure lots more could be found, if one has the time to look.

Best wishes,
Nora
www.NoMoreVetBills.com

(snip)“Overly apply heat to food and the nutrients are progressively killed/destroyed. It should be well understood and recognized in scientific literature that heat breaks down vitamins, amino acids and produces undesirable cross-linkages in proteins, particularly in meat. 

At 110 degrees Fahrenheit (approximately 43 degrees Centigrade), two of the 8 essential amino acids, tryptophan and lysine, are destroyed. 

When food is cooked above 117 degrees F for only three minutes or longer,the following deleterious changes begin and progressively cause increased nutritional damage as higher temperatures are applied over prolonged periods of time: 

*proteins coagulate 
*high temperatures denature protein molecular structure, leading to deficiency of some essential amino acids 
*carbohydrates caramelize 
*overly heated fats generate numerous carcinogens including acrolein, nitrosamines, hydrocarbons, and benzopyrene (one of the most potent cancer-causing agents known) 
*natural fibers break down, cellulose is completely changed from its natural condition: it loses its ability to sweep the alimentary canal clean 
*30% to 50% of vitamins and minerals are destroyed 
*100% of enzymes are damaged, the body's enzyme potential is depleted which drains energy needed to maintain and repair tissue and organ systems, thereby shortening the life span. 

In my opinion, it is no coincidence that since 1950, as processed food proliferated for both humans and pets, that cancer rates in the United States have steadily increased and are now at the highest point in history (for pets as well as humans). The effect from consuming overly cooked food is minimal nutrition. The body is forced to raid its dwindling supply of nutrient reserves and remains hungry for quality nutrients after a typical meal This leads to further hunger even though the stomach is full. The result can be chronic overeating and rampant obesity now seen in our dogs as well as ourselves nationwide. 

Scientific Research shows what Denaturation/Cooking Does to Protein: 
Cooking denatures protein. According to Encyclopedia Britannica, denaturation is a modification of the molecular structure of protein by heat or by an acid, an alkali, or ultraviolet radiation that destroys or diminishes its original properties and biological activity. 

Denaturation alters protein and makes it unusable or less usable. According to Britannica, protein molecules are readily altered by heat:. Unlike simple organic molecules, the physical and chemical properties of protein are markedly altered when the substance is just boiled in water. Further: All of the agents able to cause denaturation are able to break the secondary bonds that hold the chains in place. Once these weak bonds are broken, the molecule falls into a disorganized tangle devoid of biological function. 

Again, according to Britannica the most significant effect of protein denaturation is the loss of the its biological function. For example, enzymes lose their catalytic powers and hemoglobin loses its capacity to carry oxygen. The changes that accompany denaturation have been shown to result from destruction of the specific pattern in which the amino acid chains are folded in the native protein. In Britannica is the acknowledgment that "cooking destroys protein to make it practically useless" 

There are two ways to denature the proteins: chemically using digestive enzymes, or through the use of heat. Via heat, the body does not have the recombinant ability to utilize damaged denatured protein components (amino acids) and rebuild them once again into viable protein molecules. 

Some Physiologists claim that cooking and digestion are virtually the same: that cooking is a form of predigestion where heat is used to hydrolyze nutrients that would otherwise be hydrolyzed at body temperature through digestion. This due to the enormous heat exposure during cooking, that denatures the protein molecule past a point of being bioactive, however, body heat is too low to effect the protein molecule so adversely. 

When proteins are subjected to high heat during cooking, enzyme resistant linkages are formed between the amino acid chains. The body cannot separate these amino acids. What the body cannot use, it must eliminate. Cooked proteins become a source of toxicity: dead organic waste material acted upon and elaborated by bacterial flora. 

When wholesome protein foods are eaten raw, the body makes maximum use of all amino acids without the accompanying toxins of cooked food. 

According to the textbook Nutritional Value of Food Processing, 3rd Edition, (by Karmas, Harris, published by Van Nostrand Reinhold) which is written for food chemists in the industrial processed food industry: changes that occur during processing either result in nutrient loss or destruction. Heat processing has a detrimental effect on nutrients since thermal degradation of nutrients can and does occur. Reduction in nutrient content depends on the severity of the thermal processing. 

Protein molecules under ideal eating and digestive conditions are broken down into amino acids by gastric enzymes. Every protein molecule in the body is synthesized from these amino acids. Protein you consume IS NOT used as protein: it is first recycled or broken down into its constituent amino acids AND THEN used to build protein molecules the body needs. 

There are 23 different amino acids. These link together in different combinations in extremely long chains to create protein molecules, like individual rail cars form a train. The amino group gives each amino acid its specific identifying characteristic that differentiates it from the others. Excessive heat sloughs off or decapitates the amino group. Without this amino group, the amino acid is rendered useless and is toxic. ”


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Just a minor nitpick, the kidneys do not process proteins. The kidneys excrete nitrogenous wastes of protein metabolism (BUN and creatinine). High protein diets can cause increases in BUN and creatinine simply because if you're putting more protein in you're getting more waste going out, not necessarily because the kidneys themselves aren't working properly or are stressed. You have to look at more than just the blood work to evaluate the health of the kidneys.

There's currently no evidence that high protein diets cause kidney damage. But I seriously doubt anyone is going to fund any research to investigate it, either. I guess as the population of dogs on high protein diets ages we'll end up with some anecdotal evidence, which I'm sure will be contradictory as always. :/


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## rawnora (Apr 25, 2011)

"Just a minor nitpick, the kidneys do not process proteins. The kidneys excrete nitrogenous wastes of protein metabolism (BUN and creatinine). High protein diets can cause increases in BUN and creatinine simply because if you're putting more protein in you're getting more waste going out, not necessarily because the kidneys themselves aren't working properly or are stressed."

Yes it is minor because "process" is a generic term that, although often used interchangeably with "digest", can also be used to describe what the kidneys do with the by-products of protein metabolism. Animals biologically adapted to thrive on high protein diets would naturally be able to handle diets high in protein. When that doesn't happen, logic demands that we look at what the animal is being fed (raw vs. cooked), in combination with predisposing factors (which, while important, do not solely account for the presence of disease). 

"There's currently no evidence that high protein diets cause kidney damage."

This is certainly true in carnivores.

"But I seriously doubt anyone is going to fund any research to investigate it, either."

Even less likely is that research would be done to investigate the effects of cooked high protein diets versus raw high protein diets in dogs. 

Best wishes,
Nora
www.NoMoreVetBills.com


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I wasn't responding to you in particular, more to other posts upthread. I'm not, however, going to get in a semantics argument about the meaning of the word "process".


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

OK, an excerpt from a raw feeding blog/website - I'll bet there's no hidden agenda from them right? I'll just lay it out all quick b/c most of what you need to know can be found in biochem texts (you can probably trust those a bit more)- there is some alteration of SOME proteins, not all. This is a common tactic used by websites promoting raw. It doesn't matter if protein enzymes are degraded - they're produced in adequate amounts by the dog itself (if not you've got more problems than just the debate between cooked/uncooked). It also doesn't matter if a protein (in food) loses its function - as was pointed out in that little quote, the proteins have to be broken down to amino acids before the dog can even make use of them. They're certainly not functional as little amino acid chains so why get in a twist if they're nonfunctional before they're broken down. The amino acids becoming toxic does not happen frequently but in this quote it is being painted as if it does - can't imagine why? As far as vitamins and minerals being lost - I think we'd notice some serious deficiencies in the patients if this was really an issue so I don't think this is a valid argument against cooking, especially when exact vitamins/minerals and their relative amounts are not specifically written out - otherwise this is just speculation.

As for her opinoin on an increase in cancer and processed food - classic Cum Hoc fallacy (assuming causation with correlation). I admit that it's very possible, but, not much more than an opinion. Others often claim we're just better at diagnostics now and we're actually looking for it earlier and more often. Who can say exactly which it is?

BTW: What exactly are you advertising in your website that you're promoting at the end of each of your posts? Veterinary nutrition consultation?


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

rawnora said:


> "Just a minor nitpick, the kidneys do not process proteins. The kidneys excrete nitrogenous wastes of protein metabolism (BUN and creatinine). High protein diets can cause increases in BUN and creatinine simply because if you're putting more protein in you're getting more waste going out, not necessarily because the kidneys themselves aren't working properly or are stressed."
> 
> Yes it is minor because "process" is a generic term that, although often used interchangeably with "digest", can also be used to describe what the kidneys do with the by-products of protein metabolism. Animals biologically adapted to thrive on high protein diets would naturally be able to handle diets high in protein. When that doesn't happen, logic demands that we look at what the animal is being fed (raw vs. cooked), in combination with predisposing factors (which, while important, do not solely account for the presence of disease).
> 
> ...


The kidneys DO get heavily affected by excess amino acids, which stem from too much protein. Deamination(process that happens to excess protein)0 occurs in liver, the liver is then forced to process the excess protein. The liver removes the NH-2 or amine parts of the amino acid. Then it's off to the kidneys. When the amine is removed from the amino acids you're left with extremely toxic Ammonia, which is then paired with CO2 to create urea which is then FILTERED OUT BY THE KIDNEYS. Urea is poison but less potent than ammonia. So in all, high protein diets can very easily be detrimental on the kidneys. Remember, the kidneys filter out the excess protein. So if I feed my couch potato Beagle 40% protein her kidneys are working overtime to rid her body of the harmful excess protein that she doesn't use or need.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Hallie said:


> The kidneys DO get heavily affected by excess amino acids, which stem from too much protein. Deamination(process that happens to excess protein)0 occurs in liver, the liver is then forced to process the excess protein. The liver removes the NH-2 or amine parts of the amino acid. Then it's off to the kidneys. When the amine is removed from the amino acids you're left with extremely toxic Ammonia, which is then paired with CO2 to create urea which is then FILTERED OUT BY THE KIDNEYS. Urea is poison but less potent than ammonia. So in all, high protein diets can very easily be detrimental on the kidneys. Remember, the kidneys filter out the excess protein. So if I feed my couch potato Beagle 40% protein her kidneys are working overtime to rid her body of the harmful excess protein that she doesn't use or need.


I'm curious what evidence you're basing this on. The liver converts ammonia to BUN (urea) before ammonia ever gets near the kidneys. Urea is freely filtered by the kidneys and basically follows water, so as long as you are well hydrated they don't have to "work overtime" to get rid of it any more than they have to work overtime to get rid of excess water that you drink, and in fact your kidneys NEED a certain level of urea in them all the time to maintain what's called a medullary gradient which allows the kidneys to work at all. 

The proposed theories that I've seen regarding whether high protein diets damage the kidneys or not have to do with material physically clogging what's called the basement membrane of the tubules which leads to a whole host of problems rather than actual toxicity. But they're just theories and I don't know anyone who seriously ascribes to them.


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## Hallie (Nov 9, 2008)

sassafras said:


> I'm curious what evidence you're basing this on. The liver converts ammonia to BUN (urea) before ammonia ever gets near the kidneys. Urea is freely filtered by the kidneys and basically follows water, so as long as you are well hydrated they don't have to "work overtime" to get rid of it any more than they have to work overtime to get rid of excess water that you drink, and in fact your kidneys NEED a certain level of urea in them all the time to maintain what's called a medullary gradient which allows the kidneys to work at all.
> 
> The proposed theories that I've seen regarding whether high protein diets damage the kidneys or not have to do with material physically clogging what's called the basement membrane of the tubules which leads to a whole host of problems rather than actual toxicity. But they're just theories and I don't know anyone who seriously ascribes to them.


The processes take place in the liver, I should have reworded my statement. If there are large amounts of excess amino acids (more urea) your kidneys have to filter this out, so they are working harder. The body is not designed for much excess, especially not protein excess. Why feed high protein when most is getting filtered out? It amounts to more work for the kidneys and lots of waste.


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## Deeken (Feb 14, 2011)

sassafras said:


> I'm curious what evidence you're basing this on. The liver converts ammonia to BUN (urea) before ammonia ever gets near the kidneys. Urea is freely filtered by the kidneys and basically follows water, so as long as you are well hydrated they don't have to "work overtime" to get rid of it any more than they have to work overtime to get rid of excess water that you drink, and in fact your kidneys NEED a certain level of urea in them all the time to maintain what's called a medullary gradient which allows the kidneys to work at all.
> 
> The proposed theories that I've seen regarding whether high protein diets damage the kidneys or not have to do with material physically clogging what's called the basement membrane of the tubules which leads to a whole host of problems rather than actual toxicity. But they're just theories and I don't know anyone who seriously ascribes to them.


I'm not a physiologist so I won't claim that my knowledge of kidney function is stellar. I have a basic understanding but not enough to nitpick to the details. I will however say that I've seen enough dogs being fed high protein kibbles come back with extremely abnormal kidney values. I highly doubt they'll be a study anytime soon to determine whether these diets are actually causing long term kidney problems but kidney problems are not something I want to play with.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Hallie said:


> The processes take place in the liver, I should have reworded my statement. If there are large amounts of excess amino acids (more urea) your kidneys have to filter this out, so they are working harder. The body is not designed for much excess, especially not protein excess. Why feed high protein when most is getting filtered out? It amounts to more work for the kidneys and lots of waste.


The one thing I do agree on is that feeding high protein diets is a waste of money. But again, urea just follows water and moves freely across permeable areas of the kidney tubules -- the kidneys don't really "do work" to get rid of it (although they do work to reabsorb some of it to maintain their osmotic gradient). A lot of filtration in the kidneys is passive and driven by pressure gradients rather than active work on the kidneys' part, so it doesn't make sense to say the kidneys "work harder" to get rid of excessive urea.



Deeken said:


> I'm not a physiologist so I won't claim that my knowledge of kidney function is stellar. I have a basic understanding but not enough to nitpick to the details. I will however say that I've seen enough dogs being fed high protein kibbles come back with extremely abnormal kidney values. I highly doubt they'll be a study anytime soon to determine whether these diets are actually causing long term kidney problems but kidney problems are not something I want to play with.


I've seen dogs being fed high protein kibbles come back with high BUN and creatinine -- which are not strictly speaking "kidney values". That is, they can be high for reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with the kidneys although that is what they are most often used to evaluate. Sorry if that seems nitpicky, but one of my big pet peeves is the belief that "increased BUN/creatinine = kidney problems". And no, no one will ever study it, although with the rabid loyalty many people have to these diets I'm sure that if they DO cause problems we'll see that anecdotally in the coming years.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

I also agree that it is a waste to feed excess protein, but, if you look through basic biochem texts you'll see that excess protein isn't just thrown out. Via transamination, It's broken down to amino acids which are further stripped to a simple carbon skeleton and then it enters TCA cycle and is finally converted to glucose (gluconeogenesis). Why would the body waste the protein? It doesn't make sense.

Sassafras is quite right, the kidney actually depends on a certain level of urea to function correctly. Without urea in the kidney it would be as if you were taking a raging amount of diuretics all the time as you couldn't concentrate your urine.



sassafras said:


> Sorry if that seems nitpicky, but one of my big pet peeves is the belief that "increased BUN/creatinine = kidney problems"


I'll take Dehydration for 400 Alex.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Mr. V said:


> I'll take Dehydration for 400 Alex.


I'm a UMN grad. You don't get out of there without certain things pounded into your head.


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## Mr. V (Jan 28, 2010)

sassafras said:


> I'm a UMN grad. You don't get out of there without certain things pounded into your head.


Isn't that the truth. AU has become like the hotbed for research in BVD on the large animal side and feline heartworms on the small animal side. I wake up in cold sweats thinking about H.A.R.D in cats. If ya ever wants an obnoxious amount of research on that stuff lemme know...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Mr. V said:


> Isn't that the truth. AU has become like the hotbed for research in BVD on the large animal side and feline heartworms on the small animal side. I wake up in cold sweats thinking about H.A.R.D in cats. If ya ever wants an obnoxious amount of research on that stuff lemme know...


No thank you. If I forget what BVD even IS in my lifetime, I can die happy.


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