# Question? Antibiotics and Raw Food.



## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

It's actually 2 questions

1. Will switching to RAW be a problem while Dogs are on Doxycycline?

2. Is the below meal going to give them problems in the next couple of days?

I have been interested in feeding RAW food as opposed to kible for a long time now and after reading up on the forum decided to make the switch start5ng today. I All the dogs got 1 Lamb Chop and and assortment of Chicken Parts. Back, Neck, Foot, Gizzard, Liver, Heart as well as some stewed beef chunks. I scrubbed some carrots and threw that into the food processor along with some broccoli stems. I also poured a little olive oil over top of every thing to help it go down a little smoother. All garnished with frozen peas. I made sure the volume was less than a normal kibble meal. Everyone seemed to digest ok but now on the forum I hear a lot about combining proteins. Did I do wrong? They had their meal early afternoon(with gusto except for one fussy bitch) and by 11 pm every one was sleeping peacefully. 

Chicken Parts here are sold for human consumption. I figure if people can eat Chicken Feet and Pig Tail (Yum) and Snout (Yuk) Dogs shouldn't be excluded from the fun.

Chicken Foot Soup is a very popular soup here and people regularly chew their chicken bones and the spit the ground bone back onto the plate

I'm feeding 2 small/medium Heinz 57's, 1 JRT, 1 Rottie/Rhodie, 2 Labs.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

WOW! Yes, you might have a big problem - that is way too much too soon.  You need to start with one protein source for a few weeks until you can tell their body is adjusting. I would suggest saving lamb until your crew is much more acclimated to raw, it's very rich and some dogs do not handle it well. Pick something like chicken - since you are feeding a lot of dogs, I suggest trying to get in with a butcher to see if they will sell you off cuts like backs, necks, frames and offal (heart, liver, gizzard) for cheap. Another practical way to feed is to buy whole chickens, cut them up and feed different portions over the course of a few meals, (cut off the breast meat for yourself, . Take a look at this link, it will give you an idea of what your diet should model. 
http://www.rawmeatybones.com/diet/exp-diet-guide.pdf

Once you see that your dogs are okay with chicken for a few weeks, then I would try throwing in another protein source like turkey; Turkey necks, wings and drums are good parts. Feed chicken 4 meals, Turkey 3 and so forth. Every couple weeks add something new. By introducing everything slowly you make it easier to pinpoint problem foods, and you give the digestive system time to build up. I would also recommend adding a tbls of plain non-fat yogurt to their meals each day. The active cultures help good bacteria to grow and aid digestion (helps with GAS). 
In the end you want their diet to contain a variety of things from a variety of different sources. 

My dog's menu contains chicken, turkey, beef, fish, pork, rabbit, lamb, eggs w/shell, organ meat from all of the above, some fruit and a random veggie meal here and there. 

Hope this helps.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

The other problem I see is that the doxy med is going to change the gut flora. This may cause issues now or when it is discontinued. You have too much going on all at once. 

Like Box mentioned, I would stick to one protein source for a few weeks to give the gut a chance to adapt to raw. Dogs need to produce different digestive enzymes to break down raw food vs kibble. And I would wait until you are finished with the doxy doses.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Ok well, I should mention that they had all already been off kibble mostly as Cassie was sick and refusing regular food so since Tues. Starting Wed. they've all been on rice & poached boneless chicken with peas carrots and EVOO. No intestinal upset there. I'm not sure what to do now though. Everyone except for Cassie gets a variety of cooked table scraps maybe every two days or so. I would say they are used to a variety of foods (including Kibble). Just not raw.

As for the doxy. Cassie is probably going to be on a maintenance dose on & off for the rest of her life.We think she is the one with the longest untreated course. Possibly as long as 4 years. All the dogs tested pos for exposure to E. Canis and Pepper, one of the Labs, Titered the highest (1:180)and she was the only non symptomatic of the six. All the rest were 1:20 - 1:160 Right now every one but the JRT is on a control dose.

I don't want to kill my dogs I just want to help them fight this damn disease.


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## IslandMutts (Jul 23, 2007)

Chrissy, one of my dogs also tests positive for E. Canis and is on doxy now. I see that you are from Belize - we just moved to the states from Bonaire, Netherlands Antilles (off the coast of Venezuela). It's a shame because E. Canis is so prevalent down there - many people I knew lost their dogs to it. Let me know how the diet change is going... I have also recently switched from Pedigree to Canidae (pedigree was the best we could get on the island) and I'd like to start incorporating some raw foods - without major intestinal upset. Best of luck to you and your dogs.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

First I'd like to say thanks for all the input and PLEASE keep it coming.



briteday said:


> The other problem I see is that the doxy med is going to change the gut flora. This may cause issues now or when it is discontinued. You have too much going on all at once.
> 
> Like Box mentioned, I would stick to one protein source for a few weeks to give the gut a chance to adapt to raw. Dogs need to produce different digestive enzymes to break down raw food vs kibble. And I would wait until you are finished with the doxy doses.


I agree there's a lot going on. However Cassie, who has never been a fussy eater has decided to outright refuse kibble period, and I thought that seeing as how she's eating special food the rest could start eating healthier at the same time. Perhaps I will just keep up with the cooked rice, chicken, and veggies. The reason that I wanted to switch to raw was that I've seen so many vociferous comments on feeding meat without bones being so unbalanced. I'm confused as to the best course of action. 

Cassie hasn't been given Doxy since Wednesday as both that and the propranolol are excreted through the kidneys. 40 mg propranolol really is a MASSIVE dose and I am trying to address the current situation of possible kidney stress and deal with the chronic later. She had had a week of Doxy before the propranolol OD. All the rest except for the JRT are on a once daily dose per vet advice. All the dogs have good appetite when eating the raw or the cooked with rice and no one seems to be in any discomfort. One case of runny stool this morning but everyone seems happy.

I should mention that the best quality kibble available here is Pedigree which was also a factor in my course of action. We were also having a problem with one of the dogs eating stool and drinking urine, since the diet change that has not occurred.

I've been checking her stool and it's firm and light to dark brown.

Any advice would be much appreciated. 

Right now the decision is, give them the cooked boneless or stay with raw with bones for this afternoon's feeding. I'm giving them much less volume to make sure their stomachs aren't filled at any feeding.

To Island Mutts:Thank You for your comments & Good luck with your Dogs. 



IslandMutts said:


> Chrissy, one of my dogs also tests positive for E. Canis and is on doxy now. Best of luck to you and your dogs.


This is an absolutely devastating disease and I believe it is a hidden killer. The incredible laundry list of non-specific symptoms attributable to other illnesses is crazy. Every time I go in to see our vet here she has another horror story from somebody else's dog coming in in the end stages where nothing can be done. (With 6 dogs and a Peccary we're regular customers at least once a month)

We haven't had a tick problem on our property since 2003, yet the 3 dogs we have acquired after that time all tested pos for exposure and one had the highest titer of all. I'm pretty sure the 2 Lab puppies arrived already infected.


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## luv4gsds (Jul 27, 2006)

Raw should not interfear with the antibiotic. I have a friend that lives in Massachusett and her German Shepherd has lyme disease (2 yrs.) and she feeds a raw diet to her shepherd and he is on antibiotics. 

When starting out on raw you need to pick one meat source and stay with that meat source until your dogs have adjusted to it, this usually takes about three weeks. Most of the time a raw feeder will start out with chicken then add another meat source. You need to calculate how much food your dogs will need in a meal. When I have new dog in the house I start with chicken backs, two veggies, one fruit, one whole egg, and supplements like bee pollen, linatone plus, and canine red cell.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

ChrissyBz said:


> Ok well, I should mention that they had all already been off kibble mostly as Cassie was sick and refusing regular food so since Tues. Starting Wed. they've all been on rice & poached boneless chicken with peas carrots and EVOO. No intestinal upset there. I'm not sure what to do now though. Everyone except for Cassie gets a variety of cooked table scraps maybe every two days or so. I would say they are used to a variety of foods (including Kibble). Just not raw.


Just use your discretion, you know your dogs the best and will be able to better gauge what they can handle or not. Raw is digested a tad differently than cooked food, so adding a mixture of raw pieces may have a different outcome than a mixture of cooked pieces.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Ok, so here we go. After weighing all my options. I decided to go with Chicken Wings along with a little bit of peas & carrots with a generous dollop of canned pumpkin on top. Seemed to go over quite well. we're 2 hours in and I've been watching very closely. The big dogs also got a small lamb chop each. I've checked everyone for gut sounds and they're all gurgling nicely. Cassie seems a little bit restless but she's lying down comfortably and her gut sounds are good.Every time I open the fridge door she pops up and comes over. Ginger is refusing to hear of anything but kibble so as she's the oldest and queen of the house she gets to eat what she wants. the two small dogs chewed their wings thoroughly the bigger ones were a little gulpy but so far so good. No kibble so I'm not too worried about bloat just being hyper vigilant after this past week.From what I've read on this forum pumpkin can help to pump things along. No pun intended of course. 

When would be the best time to give yoghurt? With meals, before, or after?

Thanks for all the advice. Keep it coming.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

*Hey, we're still on RAW Almost 3 weeks*

4/6 Anyway

Took the advice and have been sticking to mostly chicken.

Cassie started exhibiting vague symptoms of Ehrlichia the last couple days and last night one of her eyes got really blood shot so I put her back on the doxy right away.

I talked to the vet today and she agreed that due to symptoms Cassie should go back on the doxy. Originally she was prescribed 100 mg 1 x daily but I saw during research that some dosages were much higher and after we talked it over she's on 100 mg bid.

Before I switched to raw all the dogs were on Pedigree Kibble (best you can get here) and I do not want to go back to that. Cassie has been on exclusively RAW for over 2 weeks now. I have been feeding raw chicken to all four dogs on the new diet. The JRT gets a wing or neck and liver or gizzard max 3 oz. Cassie a wing or neck and half a drumstick or small piece of breast and one or 2 feet or giblets max 4 oz. 
The 2 labs get 1/4 chicken leg & thigh or breast & wing. giblets or foot or neck. Max 10 - 12 oz. All 2 x's daily plus they all get pumpkin and yoghurt on top. Stool is firm, brown, and doesn't smell. By the next day parts have turned white and break down into powder with no bone chunks. Maybe every other day i give them either a raw egg or a cooked one shell included. No one has gained or lost weight and they seem to love it.

The 2 older dogs(both 12) have been getting home cooked brown rice and poached boneless chicken with a variety of legumes & veggies thrown in (whatever's on hand when I cook a batch. + pumpkin and yoghurt. 

Everyone seems to be eating well and digesting good although Sammie the 12 y.o. Rottie's farts smell bad enough that the other dogs get up & leave. 

Every one gets cow feet as treats. 

Every thing the dogs are being fed is human food grade as Chicken foot and cow foot are commonly consumed here. So its clean, & refrigerated or frozen in bags until I'm ready to use it. As a matter of fact I had a bowl of Chicken Foot Soup for dinner tonight. Why should the dogs have all the fun?  I had mine well done though.


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