# APRI vs. AKC registration?



## akira

I just purchased an APRI shiba puppy. She's registered with America's Pet Registry, Inc. Both of her parents come from a champion bloodlines. Can I get her registered with AKC. What's a difference between the 2? Is AKC more reputable?


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## Cheetah

The only reputable registries on this continent are the AKC, UKC, and CanKC (not to be confused with the ConKC). Unfortunately, you have purchased a puppy from a BYB, registered with a BYB registry. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but at least you will know now. >-.-<

Also, for future reference, champion bloodlines mean nothing without champion sire and dam. BYBs can get their hands on dogs with good backgrounds and churn out lots of badly-bred pups out of unfinished dogs.


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## Keno's Mom

I doubt it. Its one of many registries that puppy mill and backyard breeders "register" their dogs so they can sell them for more money.

Just take your dog; spay/neuter her/him and love him and do better research in the future.


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## Curbside Prophet

No, you can not have the dog registered with the AKC, unless both the dam and sire are also registered with the AKC. Unfortunately, as others have mentioned, APRI is garbage. Do as Keno's Mom said, and have your dog spayed, per your vet's recommendation. In the meantime, give her the best life possible, and learn all that you can about how to buy a pup, for the future. We don't say these things to be rude or mean, but there is a lot to learn about how to buy a "registered" pup, and the more you can learn the better. BTW, welcome to our forum!


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## Snowshoe

There are some breeds (such as the Chinook and Alaskan Husky) which are not yet included as a breed with in the AKC. However, the Shiba Inu *is *included, and any pups of quality born in America should be registered in the AKC. 

My questions for you are: 

How do you know that the parents are champs? Shibas are not necessarily a "rare" breed, but they are somewhat uncommon. If your pup's dam and sire are champs, then other people in the Shiba show scene would have heard of them, or your breeder. Is her kennel name well known? 

If you do not know if the kennel is reputable, send an e-mail to the Shiba Inu Club of America. Just google that, and its website should pop up. They will typically know all the bad/good breeders with in their specialty. 

Is you pup supposed to have show potential? If it is, you cannot show her unless she is AKC registered. 

My first instinct is to tell you that you've probably been "had" with this breeder. Just as with any other business, there are people in the dog world who will scam you, too. 

Make sure you get your pup checked out by a vet, and then spay or neuter her/him. 

I'm really sorry for what's happened. I can only imagine how it must feel. *hug*


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## skelaki

Have your dog spayed, she is not registerable with a legitimate registry. If she is or looks purebred, is spayed, and you are interested in participating in performance events, such as obedience, you can get an ILP number from the AKC.


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## atldoglover

*Newbie to Newbie*

Did you purchase your puppy from a "backyard breeder"? Do you know what that label refers to? If so, I am sorry that you had to find out this way, but at least you found out.


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## k9lvr

This is not true! APRI is a legitimate registry. You must in fact have a pedigree to register a dog with APRI. Just because your dog is APRI does not make it trash. APRI holds conformation shows. Every registry has unethical people in it. It is not the registry that is unethical it is the people who have their dogs restistered with them. I have a friend that has a very nice bitch, she showed her with APRI and got a champion title, then went on to show with AKC. She could not get any points to save her life with AKC. She was talking to someone at a show and they told her that she in fact had a very nice bitch. She was at a loss and told the lady it didn't seem like it because she could not get any points on the dog. The lady told her that she was going about it the wrong way that she had to hire a handler. So she did and now she has an AKC champion title on her bitch. APRI points out a dog on breed standard not against other dogs or who has the dog in the ring. With APRI is it all about the dog, not who you know. You can not get together with a few of your friends and put in ringers to champion out your dog with APRI. You can not look at who is going to judge the dog and go with your favorite judges. Either your dog has what it takes or not. BYB and Pm do not take the time to show dogs. Also with APRI all dogs that show are required to have a Health Certificate and proof of shots by a vet. Also before a dog can show with APRI they must be micro chipped. At the time of the show the microchip is scanned and a DNA is taken before any points are awarded. None of this is required by AKC.


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## Curbside Prophet

k9lvr said:


> This is not true! APRI is a legitimate registry. You must in fact have a pedigree to register a dog with APRI. Just because your dog is APRI does not make it trash. APRI holds conformation shows. Every registry has unethical people in it. It is not the registry that is unethical it is the people who have their dogs restistered with them. I have a friend that has a very nice bitch, she showed her with APRI and got a champion title, then went on to show with AKC. She could not get any points to save her life with AKC. She was talking to someone at a show and they told her that she in fact had a very nice bitch. She was at a loss and told the lady it didn't seem like it because she could not get any points on the dog. The lady told her that she was going about it the wrong way that she had to hire a handler. So she did and now she has an AKC champion title on her bitch. APRI points out a dog on breed standard not against other dogs or who has the dog in the ring. With APRI is it all about the dog, not who you know. You can not get together with a few of your friends and put in ringers to champion out your dog with APRI. You can not look at who is going to judge the dog and go with your favorite judges. Either your dog has what it takes or not. BYB and Pm do not take the time to show dogs. Also with APRI all dogs that show are required to have a Health Certificate and proof of shots by a vet. Also before a dog can show with APRI they must be micro chipped. At the time of the show the microchip is scanned and a DNA is taken before any points are awarded. None of this is required by AKC.


All I can say is visit the AKC website and the APRI website and make up your own mind who's more legit or not. In my mind, the difference is obvious and the discussion could stop there. But I'm sorry, the APRI is not recognized in other coutries, for the US, only the AKC is. And I'd like to know how DNA can be taken before points are awarded? Does that mean no one gets point until after 3 days when the DNA tests are done? Because unless the APRI's science is different or the tests are not regulated, DNA tests don't happen on the spot or over night. And who's paying for all these tests? Please educate me on this. I will admit one thing though...Elsa's APRI papers made for a good bird cage liner.


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## Curbside Prophet

FYI, here is the AKC DNA profile program:

DNA Profile Program

The AKC DNA Profile Program brings cutting-edge parentage testing technology to AKC customers. A cheek swab brush is used to collect the DNA sample from the dog, and returned to the AKC. The sample is processed by AKC's DNA service provider, MMI Genomics, and the resulting genotype is entered into the AKC DNA Database. The information is used to verify parentage of AKC dogs and for genetic identity purposes. This technology allows breeders, dog owners, and the AKC to ensure that the AKC Registry is the most accurate in the world.
DNA Profiling is required for stud dogs whose semen is collected for fresh-extended or frozen or frozen use. AKC DNA Profiling is also required for Frequently Used Sires, effective for litters whelped on or after July 1, 2000, and for imported breeding stock registered on or after March 1, 2006.

The dog owner will receive an AKC DNA Profile for each dog sampled. Additionally, for dogs individually registered at the time the DNA sample is received by the AKC, the DNA Profile Number will be added to that dog's registration record, and will appear on all Registration Certificates and Pedigrees issued in the future. 

Dogs who have already processed their DNA through MMI Genomics can transfer their DNA records through the "DNA record transfer program" so the dog can become AKC DNA Profiled. 
DNA Profiling may be used to determine the correct sire of a litter before registering that litter, such as in cases where the dam was exposed to more than one male during her season. Additionally, the AKC can register litters with more than one sire. Follow this link for more information about this policy. 

Order DNA test kits
For further information about this or other DNA programs, contact AKC DNA Operations.










Suspiciously, I can't find anything on APRI's DNA profiling. Hmmmm, that's odd. I could use some help with this.


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## drfong

K9LVR, you are right, there are unethical people in all associations and the AKC is not imune. I'm sure that some people are out there falsely promoting their pups with AKC papers. But APRI seems to be promoting this. I was just looking at their web site to see what they are about and they even have a service to register dogs that are born to unregistered parrents. This certianly seems like a way for almost anyone to get 'papers' for their dog to make their pups seem more valuable to puppy buyers. I agree that AKC dog shows really seem so subjective that it's hard to say only AKC pointed dogs should be breed, but I do think only quality dogs should be. The AKC papers don't guarantee a quality dog, but it seems APRI papers don't even guarantee the dogs pure bred.


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## Keno's Mom

I took a look at the APRI website out of curiousity. They don't accept the mixed breeds (like cockapoo/pekeapoo/labradoodle, etc.) They do have some dogs that are in the "rare" breeds and might be in other countries, not AKC dogs.

HOWEVER, in looking further, under there "shows"/winners, etc. They have something about winning free dogs. And if you check out the people winners, many of those people got their free dogs from places like PETLAND and some others that I highly suspect of getting puppy mill/byb dogs and not legit sources.

So I've come to the conclusion that APRI is not a good place to get a dog and it still comes back to an association that deals/accepts dogs out of puppy mills registries.

No where does the FAQ say that APRI dogs can be registered in AKC, but it does accept AKC dogs to be registered in APRI. I honestly think they will not be around long. I can't even find a legit "show" calendar with upcoming shows - seems they hold a few shows but that's about it. I don't see anything regarding judges, etc. So it might be matches they are calling shows.

Personally I would NOT have anything to do with them.


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## k9lvr

You can find the requirments for show by going here http://www.aprpets.org/main/dogshows.html 
It will tell you that DNA must be done. AKC has DNA but only for breeding.
APRI does have a drawing to win a free puppy, how that works is when you buy a puppy from where ever, show breeder or pet store you send in the paper work and if your name is drawn you win the cash amount that you paid for the puppy. But if you look in the pet stores you will see far more puppies with AKC papers. 
The service to register pups with unregistered parents is not APRI please do not confuse that. It is a pet service and that is it.
They even have a code of ethics AKC leaves it up to the breed clubs for that. AKC it self does not say do not sell your puppies to brokers it is the breed clubs that do that. 
I just get upset when people do not use a service and talk bad about because they do not know anything about it.
AKC and APRI are both good in my book


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## k9lvr

Oh let me touch base on the judge thing. There is no list of what judges will be judging your dog. You do not know till you get to the show. But to get enough points to champion out your dog must be seen by 9 judges. All 9 judges must agree that your dog is of breed standard.


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## Curbside Prophet

Keno's Mom said:


> I honestly think they will not be around long.


You don't know how much I wish this were true! But unforunately Missouri, where Elsa was rescued from a puppy mill...and would have had APRI papers, has passed some laws to protect commercial breeders. The State Senator in the South West part of the State has pushed this through. The Hunte Corp building is a 100,000 sq ft facility that has "helped" the ecomomy in that part of the state...and they are a mass producing puppy machine. Missouri as with numerous other States look at dog breeding as a cash crop just like cattle, corn.... I mean no offense to Missourians, Missouri is just where Hunte Corp is located. Just search Hunte Corp in your search engine and read about all the garbage they do with pups. And isn't it ironic that most of the APRI shows are in Missouri? Coincidence? Not in my mind. And until APRI is recognized by other countries, they, along with the thousands of other pet and dog registries, are garbage. And unfortunately it is true, that even AKC papers don't mean anything, and they, along with APRI papers, can be manufactured by anyone. That's why it's so important to learn the right way to buy a pup. I don't mean to be so opinionated about APRI, or maybe I do, but either way, I owe it to Elsa.


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## nrhareiner

A breed show or registration type show is only as good as the compitition who enter and the quality of the judges they use. So personally I do not care what registry it is if that registry does not have the best compitions for what you are doing it really does not matter. From what I have seen of AKC there is no way to find out what a dog has produced and to me that is a big mistake. When looking for a quality animal I want to know what they have done what they have produced and what their family line has done and produced all 4 lines 4 generations back and this can not be done with any dog registry and until this is done I really do not see where any dog registry is worth much.

Heidi


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## Keno's Mom

If you feel you like the other registry, then use it. But IMO its still related more to the puppy mills then you might think.

I SERIOUSLY doubt that a APRI dog that went to AKC got registered in AKC unless it already had dual registration (AKC first). APRI is a service company that branched out into registering dogs and cats.

If you notice there are very few breeds of cats that are "registered" by APRI....gee I wonder why?

You'd be surprised at the number of so-called registries out there that are used by puppy mills or byb's. The only legit ones are AKC and CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) (and maybe some from overseas) BUT anything else is highly questionable.


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## poofywoof

*AKC vs APRI*

Just to be clear for anyone that may be a first time puppy buyer : just because your puppy has AKC registration does not guarantee that it doesn't come from a PuppyMill! AKC does not regulate breeders or breeding practices. Your local PetLand or other petstore will most likely have puppies registered with AKC, CKC, ACA, and APRI.


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## Snowshoe

Sad, isn't it? 

Just like anything else, a consumer must research before they purchase. 

People are just naive, I think. Or, they just hear what they want to hear, in regards to pets. 

They look at the first cute puppy they find, and regardless of what's in the pedigree or where it came from, they take it home and try to force it into their family structure. 

Then, the puppy gets sick/ mean and then it goes to the shelter, and all of the regesteries in the world won't save that poor pup then. 

Sure, I'm glad my pup is AKC. In fact, I wouldn't buy from a breeder who didn't register their litters with the AKC. But that's only one, small part of the research it takes when picking out a puppy.


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## nrhareiner

Problem is that there is no place to resurch blodlines in dogs. The AKC does not keep those type of records so there is no way to know what a dog has produced what is a good cross or any other info needed to make a good informed desition.

Heidi


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## Snowshoe

nrhareiner said:


> Problem is that there is no place to resurch blodlines in dogs. The AKC does not keep those type of records so there is no way to know what a dog has produced what is a good cross or any other info needed to make a good informed desition.
> 
> Heidi


This is true. This is why the breeder probably needs to be more carefully picked out then the puppy. 

And, you CAN research bloodlines- there is usually a breed data base which contains information on all dogs registered with in it. 

Also, if you go to dog shows and strike up a conversation with a breeder (who isn't in the middle of grooming, or walking) then you can set up a time to meet with them to discuss the questions you have a bout the breed. 

They don't know you from Adam, so they'll likely be forthcoming when it comes to what you can expect. Usually, different kennels will carry different lines. If you can ascertain that the kennel is reputable, you can call and ask them about their particular dogs, and they should disclose any and all health problems, or other problems in their dogs.


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## nrhareiner

Snowshoe said:


> This is true. This is why the breeder probably needs to be more carefully picked out then the puppy.
> 
> And, you CAN research bloodlines- there is usually a breed data base which contains information on all dogs registered with in it.
> 
> Also, if you go to dog shows and strike up a conversation with a breeder (who isn't in the middle of grooming, or walking) then you can set up a time to meet with them to discuss the questions you have a bout the breed.
> 
> They don't know you from Adam, so they'll likely be forthcoming when it comes to what you can expect. Usually, different kennels will carry different lines. If you can ascertain that the kennel is reputable, you can call and ask them about their particular dogs, and they should disclose any and all health problems, or other problems in their dogs.


Actually at least with Goldens this is not true. Even the GRCA does not keep the type of records I am wanting. 

Talking to people is good and I have and will continue to do so not only with dogs but other animals as well. However I have found in my years that I do not beleive much of anything poeple tell me about an animal. I want to go to the actual regisitry and varife what they are saying. I want to be able to look up an animale by name and see what he has done where he did it at what the compitition was like. I want to see what they have produced what their sire and dam have produced what their get have done what their siblings have done. I what to see what crosses work for what and which do not. The way things are set up now this is not posible. I find it hard to beleive that making a good breeding desitions with out these facts would be the best desition that is posible.

Heidi


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## k9lvr

Keno's Mom, the bitch was registered with both. The breeder felt that if she went with both sets of papers that it would leave more options for my friend to show her with what ever club she wanted. She sells all of her puppies this way. And to be honest I really wish I was into the breed that she has. Because I have met this lady and if I were to buy a puppy again it would be from her. My friend took me to her house when she had a litter of pups, the pups were already spoken for but the breeder loves it when people and past puppy buyers just want to come see the new litters, so she will welcome any one to come. We got there and the puppies were in an xpen in the living room. We sat on the couch and 4 other dogs jumped up to sit in our laps and to be petted. She has a display case that proudly displays all of her winnings from both AKC and APRI. 
This breeder was so sweet and so nice she sold me on APRI. Her dogs are all registered with both AKC and APRI she has never sold to a broker. I have since registered my dogs with both clubs and show with both clubs. And I am not the only one, I see lots of the same faces at the APRI shows that I do at the local AKC shows. 
All I am saying here is, the job of the service is to keep records on pure bred dogs, offer pedigrees and hold conformation shows. Just because your dog is only registered with one service does not make it a good or bad dog. There are wonderful APRI dogs as well as there are realy bad AKC dogs. The papers that your puppy comes with does not mean it is a nice healthy well adjusted pup, or that it is a sick unhealthy have to have it fixed right now and you got taken by a breeder puppy. 
So to answer the first question on here. If your puppy is APRI that does not make it a bad pup. Do what everyone should do. Take the pup to the vet make sure it is healthy, watch it grow give it lots of love and attention. Train your puppy make sure he or she has good manners. And by all means if your pup has what it takes and if you both enjoy showing, get out there have some fun and go to some shows. Just because you show a dog, that does not mean you have to breed the dog. Showing can be a really fun family event. And when I say family I do mean family dog included. Do not let the snobs of the dog world scare you away from it. Follow your heart not the words of others.


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## Snowshoe

I guess my question is this: would it be easier for a puppy mill to register with APRI, or with the AKC? 

I realize that the registry doesn't make the dog. I just would think that going with the main stream would be the way to go. 

If the APRI has so many shows, why haven't I heard of them? I mean...you get the AKC Eukenuba, and the Westminster, all of which show AKC registered dogs. 

Can you have an APRI champion and show him/her at Westminster? Does that APRI have anything like the Eukenuba?


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## Keno's Mom

I believe in recent years (this from AKC breeders) that AKC has cracked down about the puppy mills registering...making it harder or something. So they went to the "alternative" registries or created them. Many of them are so fake. One even went so far to print you pretty certificates for your dog - they registered anything and everything - no matter what it was.

I've never heard of ARPI before till now. I have heard of the puppy mill CKC (Continental Kennel Club) which is a notorious puppy mill registry. In fact, I just recently went in a local pet shop and noticed that all the puppies in there were CKC registered! I was in a hurry but one day will act dumb and question what is CKC...when they tell me, I will simply tell them "do you know that is a puppy mill registry?"

And again, the website doesn't say you can take your ARPI dog and have it registered in AKC....however they do say your AKC dog can be registered in ARPI!


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## k9lvr

Snowshoe
I guess my question is this: would it be easier for a puppy mill to register with APRI, or with the AKC? 
Answer: Well it is the same all you do is fill out an application to register a litter of puppies and send in the money to do so.
I realize that the registry doesn't make the dog. I just would think that going with the main stream would be the way to go.
Answer: Just because most people choose to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge does that mean one can not jump from the Golden Gate Bridge.
If the APRI has so many shows, why haven't I heard of them? I mean...you get the AKC Eukenuba, and the Westminster, all of which show AKC registered dogs. 
Answer. Well maybe you have had blinders on and have not looked for them. How many AKC shows are out there that you have no idea are being held unless you look? Would you know about Westminster or Eukenuba if they were not televised.
Can you have an APRI champion and show him/her at Westminster? Does that APRI have anything like the Eukenuba?
Answer: Yes. We have a breeder that did in fact show her dog at Westminster and also showed him with APRI. But her dog is registered with both as well. And to answer the second half of that question. Yes they do. It is called Parade of Champions, it is an invitational show only. Just like the other two there is prize money at this one. But remember when you show your dog with both they must be registered with both. AKC does not accept an APRI Champion. So you must show with both clubs to get your champion titles with both clubs. 
In fact the show is this weekend, in Branson. Come on out you may just be suprised to see who is there, might be a few AKC show people you know. 
This is my last post on this subject, the good old AKC and APRI argument can go on forever just as the evolution vs creation argument. All we can do is read, learn, see, and feel to come up with our own conclusion.


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## tirluc

i have a couple ?'s .......first, you all are saying that the only legit registries in the States is AKC and CKC (Can.)......i beg to differ on that.....my 3 BC are reg. ABCA and have ISDS reg background as well (that's American Border Collie Assoc. and International Sheepdog Society reg) so you're saying that these are not legit?.......wrong......they just don't focus on the conformation showing of the dog, they judge the working abilities.....

also, this kinda concerns me as well.....



> DNA Profiling may be used to determine the correct sire of a litter before registering that litter, such as in cases where the dam was exposed to more than one male during her season. Additionally, the AKC can register litters with more than one sire. Follow this link for more information about this policy.


if this is allowed, where does responsible breeding take place.....to me, if there is more than one sire to the litter than the registries should be cancelled out.....this, IMHO, is bad breeding.....that bitch should NEVER be exposed to more than one sire at the time of her heat......and i know this has been going on since....well, forever....anyways, but the knowing of the different sires doesn't make it any more right or ethical.....to me it means a breeder that isn't careful of his/her breeding habits.....


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## Keno's Mom

When I said about AKC, UKC (I had forgot about them ) and CKC being legit, I was not talking about the individual breed specialty clubs/associations. Those are totally different. AKC/UKC/CKC are ALL breed associations. 

The other associations that register dogs are usually used by puppy mills/byb's cause they don't have as strict rules. Someone posted a link regarding the "other" associations so you know what it puppy mill registries.

This is the link:

http://winddreamer.net/labfiles/alternative_dog_registries.html

Now you can make up your own mind about APRI, since its in the list of puppy mills registries.


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## tirluc

oh, don't get me wrong about APRI.....i agree w/ you on that.....but i have had people say w/ the ABCA that that is not a registry b/c they 1) only reg. the BC's and 2) they don't do conformation ......just making sure that others on here were not under that same assumption......


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## nrhareiner

An association is only as good as it membership. Shows only as good as the compitition.

You can not say that one is better then the other as they seem to be different. Just b/c you have not herd of one does not nessicarally make it bad or good for that matter.

As for showing in one and not the other or one registry not being able to show at Westminster or Eukanuba.

Well I am sure you have hear of THe Kentucky Derby and the other triple crown races. Well those are only for TB horses that are 3yo. and registed with the Jocky Club.

Does that make the AQHA less of a registry? They can not run at any of the Triple crown races so by what you are saying is that one is better then the other b/c one has some big show/race on TV and everyone knows about it and the other does not.

To the same there are registry who only register based on Color, some associations/registries are bases solly on a given performance event. Some of these events are offered in several differnt registries yet one is considered more lagit then others. Does this make the other less of a registry b/c the particapants do not like it or think much of it?

There are many differnt ways to look at one thing like it or not. What it comes down to is that the people running the registry/organization is trying to imporve. They all have to start somewhere and for some reason. 

APHA was started b/c AQHA would not register AHQA horses with too much white. Does this make APHA a fake registry and no good? Does this make APHA registerd horses junk?

There are many examples that I am sure I have not even thought of. If you do not like something then change it or let it be. Do not talk down about it until you have at least partisipated at their events and see exactly what they are about.

Heidi


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## Tamara

akira said:


> I just purchased an APRI shiba puppy. She's registered with America's Pet Registry, Inc. Both of her parents come from a champion bloodlines. Can I get her registered with AKC. What's a difference between the 2? Is AKC more reputable?


Hi
Such sweet looking puppies!
I think it all depends if the breed is recognised by the AKC. The AKC is the main dog breed registration in America.


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## tirluc

> Well I am sure you have hear of THe Kentucky Derby and the other triple crown races. Well those are only for TB horses that are 3yo. and registed with the Jocky Club.
> 
> Does that make the AQHA less of a registry? They can not run at any of the Triple crown races so by what you are saying is that one is better then the other b/c one has some big show/race on TV and everyone knows about it and the other does not.


first off, we're talking about 2 different breeds of horses......you want to run your Quarter horse against a Thoroughbred....go right ahead.....this would be like putting your Labrador into a herding trial w/ all the BC's.....i don't know for sure, as i don't do horse showing, but isn't there shows for all breeds of horses to compete in (Dressage, Western/English Showmanship, Jump, cutting comp.,etc)....i don't think these are open to ONLY specific breeds of horses....



> To the same there are registry who only register based on Color, some associations/registries are bases solly on a given performance event. Some of these events are offered in several differnt registries yet one is considered more lagit then others. Does this make the other less of a registry b/c the particapants do not like it or think much of it?


i can't think of any registry that is based on colour......and the performance events are not based on any breed of dog, it's usually put up by a breed/dog club for that event (agility, flyball, obedience, rally-o, etc) 



> APHA was started b/c AQHA would not register AHQA horses with too much white. Does this make APHA a fake registry and no good? Does this make APHA registerd horses junk?


and APHA was started b/c the Paint is a different breed entirely (colour breed) from the QH.....yes the QH can be a Paint and be dual reg. (APHA and AQHA) same as the Arab can't be reg as a QH but can be dual reg as APHA and Arab (if it is a Paint), nor the Morgan, etc. but, and all you horse people out there correct me if i'm wrong, but most of these can be dual reg. in both colour and breed registries.....am i right?


but everyone is right here....alot of these "registries" for dogs have been formed so that the puppymillers can say "See, i have "quality" puppies and charge astronomical amounts of $ to un/misinformed people who then alot of times spend another astronomical amount of $ trying to keep the "ill-bred" pup alive and/or healthy.....i know, a friend of mine is going thru this w/ her Collie.....


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## nrhareiner

They are differnt breed however they still have many things in common. There is alot of TB in the QH breed. You can still register a 1/2 TB 1/2 QH with AQHA.

APHA in NOT a different breed. It tecknially in not a breed it is a color registry. Only colored horses can be shown in APHA shows. Breeding stock (solid) horses can not be shown in APHA events.

Then there is the Pinto Association also strickly a color registry. There are also 2 differnt Buckskin Associtions who are stricktly a color stock horse registry. Horse must have dun factor to be registerd. I can go on but you get the drift.

Performance events such as NRHA requier a horse to have a compitition lisence to compet. For many many years NCHA would only allow AQHA registerd horse to compet. This is why Miss White Trash was not allowed to be shown in Cutting and was they shown as a reiner. Rest is history. Now AQHA has changed the "White Rule" and these horses are not allowed back in.

Each of these registries where started for a reason. AQHA b/c they wanted a way to track blodlines in horses who showd certain tendancies. Most QH can be traced back to Arabs, Morgans, some draft breeds, even TB. Dose that mean that AQHA is not legit as it has such meager start.

Same with NRHA it is now celibrating its 40th year. By 2012 they hope reining will be an Olymic event.

What I am trying to say is that no mater how a registry starts. If it is handled correctly, sets a standard, puts on sanctioned shows, keeps track of winners and points and one thing even AKC is lacking is tracking blodlines. To me this is what a registry does. Keeps track of blodlines what they produce what each sires get does and what the crosses are. This is not being done. So to me AKC is just a clearing house and nothing more. Great place to show and register a dog b/c of the shows, guidlines and such but has little more to offer.

I would like to see them offer an altered dog class in coformation. Let people show who have no interest in breeding. I am getting a puppy this spring and will keep the dog intack b/c I want to show. I personally do not like intack dogs for many reason and yes at some point I may breed the dog but only if it meets my criterea for breeding. However I would rather just show the dog. I really think AKC has really missed the boat on this one.

Heidi


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## minschnauzercookie

*Apri*

Hi I am new to the forum so I am hoping to learn something  
So...I just learned that our new puppy Cookie our Miniature Schnauzer has APRI papers and not AKC- I was mislead and feel awful about that. Our puppy is just adorable though and the vet says she is in perfect health so I have to wonder about all the postings on this forum. Some said have a dog spayed because she is not AKC? I am confused about that statement. She can't/shouldn't ever have a litter because she doesn't belong to the better of the two organizations? If we don't plan to have a show dog (and are okay with that)and assume her puppies won't be show dogs (and are okay with that too) then why would we have her spayed? Am I missing something?


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## Curbside Prophet

minschnauzercookie said:


> Hi I am new to the forum so I am hoping to learn something
> So...I just learned that our new puppy Cookie our Miniature Schnauzer has APRI papers and not AKC- I was mislead and feel awful about that. Our puppy is just adorable though and the vet says she is in perfect health so I have to wonder about all the postings on this forum. Some said have a dog spayed because she is not AKC? I am confused about that statement. She can't/shouldn't ever have a litter because she doesn't belong to the better of the two organizations? If we don't plan to have a show dog (and are okay with that)and assume her puppies won't be show dogs (and are okay with that too) then why would we have her spayed? Am I missing something?


The APRI registry has been known to be the registry of choice for puppy millers and back yard breeders. And APRI does not lists standards for their animals. Therefore, the quality of their animals is below what anyone knowledgeable would consider quality, and deserving to be bred. What you may be missing is this...unless the dog is an excellent example of the standard (the AKC standard), it should not be bred, because you are not breeding for the betterment of the breed. Why produce sub-quality dogs? Furthermore, there are way too many dogs sitting in shelters without homes, and you do not want to add to, or take away homes from these deserving animals. Therefore, it's my opinion that it would be in your best interest, for both you and the dog, to have her spayed. But, love her like she was the greatest dog on earth...she really doesn't care what papers she has, she just cares for your love.

TO BREED OR NOT TO BREED – THAT IS THE QUESTION


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## Keno's Mom

Unless your dog is a top quality example of the breed and show either in confirmation or field trials that you earn titles, he/she should NOT be bred period. And you should be testing your dog before you breed for any of the breed inherited problems - many breeds have problems with hip dyplasia. Some other have eye problems, etc.

No dog needs to have a litter before being spayed. A good breeder will get clearances for their dogs, carefully select the best homes for puppies and be willing to back up health guarentees and be willing to take the dog back if the owner can't keep it.


Here is another website that lists the puppymill/backyard breeders registries for anyone considering buying a dog. Keep those other associations in mind and stay away from any breeder/pet shop that is registering puppies under one of these groups:

http://members.tripod.com/~Moosewood/registries.html


These are the first 3 (maybe the worse ones?) 

*ACA - American Canine Association* Advertises that over 3000 adult breeding canines are registered each week. Only registry endorsed by Petland. **Caters to commercial breeders.** Refers puppy seekers to pet stores.

*APRI - AMERICA'S PET REGISTRY INC.* Advertises free registration for commercial breeders. Non Profit 'dedicated to the preservation of the professional pet industry', dogs and cats. Founded by retailers of pets (commercial breeders and resellers).

*CKC-Continental Kennel Club (do not confuse with Canadian Kennel Club!)*
CKC will recognize a cross between any two purebred dogs, and will issue a registration certificate on their offspring. These crosses are not registered as purebred dogs but are registered as the offspring of purebred dogs. CKC accepts no responsibility for any inaccurate, false, or fraudulent information submitted on registration applications. They sponsor no shows or championships. They also give big fee breaks to large kennels registering lots of dogs (such as Puppy Mills). Will register dogs not registered with other recognized registries.


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## Snowshoe

And I thought this thread had gone over the rainbow bridge! Sheesh! 

To Cookie's mom: 

Birthing has many, many health risks. If you get your dog spayed, it will prevent all that. 

If you know (your words, not mine) that your dog is not show quality, why would you put her life at risk to have poor quality puppies? 

If you spay her, she won't EVEN know what she's missing. 

People tend to try to humanize their pets- we imagine how WE would feel in their place. However, what you're forgetting is that dogs can't think on our level. 

As I've said before, she'll have no clue. 

Plus, spaying prevents all types of problems in dogs. You want her to live a long and healthy life, right?


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## Snowshoe

ATTENTION ALL NOVICE POTENTIAL BREEDERS!!

SO YOU WANT TO BE A BREEDER? - Breeding the female
So you want to breed your female. You know what to expect if everything goes right. Your little girl will present you with tiny bundles of joy. She will lovingly nurse them and care for them until they are old enough to be weaned. 

You and your family will find great joy in watching and playing with these little dolls, and then when the time is right they will all (or maybe you keep just one) go off to special homes to live out their lives as cherished companions. But have you given consideration to what if something goeswrong? I have listed here a few of the problems that I myself have personal knowledge of. Everything listed has happened either to me or someone I know. These are not isolated incidents. I'm sure other breeders could add miles to my list. Learn by others mistakes!. Let the breeding up to those who know what they are doing, have the experience, know what to expect. 

WHAT IF DURING THE BREEDING 


The stud dog you have chosen is carrying a venereal disease and gives it to your female. She not only doesn't conceive but you have to pay the vet bills to get her infection cleared up and she is now sterile. 
The stud dog you decided to breed your darling to is not experienced. Once the two dogs are joined tightly in a tie, he decides to chase the neighbors cat out of his yard. He bolts for the cat ripping his penis loose and causing your bitch to hemorrhage from within. 
Your modest girl decides she doesn't want the attentions of this gigolo mutt chosen for her without her consent. She snaps at him catching her tooth on his loose cheek and rips it open sending blood flying everywhere. He retaliates by sinking his teeth into her left eye. 
You leave your dog with the stud owner because the breeding is not going very swiftly. In fact , it's been three hours and nothing is happening. The stud owners leave the two dogs alone in the back yard. The dogs get out through a tiny hole in the fence and a truck hits your female. 
You pay the $250-$1000 stud fee up front figuring you will make that and more back when the pups sell. The breeder guarantees the stud service to work or you can come back again. After 2 months you discover it didn't work and now must wait another 4 months to try again. Of course it doesn't work again, so in another 4 months you take your dog to another male and risk loosing another stud fee. 
You get her bred. Bring her home. She bothers you so you let her out she is still in heat and still receptive to males. You hear a commotion outside there is your girl tied up with the neighborhood mutt. when she whelps there will need to be DNA tests done on the pups. 
You get her bred. Bring her home and let her out. (She is still in heat and receptive to other males) but you do not see the neighborhood mutt breed her. The pups are born but look odd. You call the stud owner he suggests DNA testing (At your expense). You have a litter of mutts! What do you do about the ones you have already sold? 
Or knowing she tied with the neighborhood mutt you decide to terminate the pregnancy and try again being more careful next time. But a few weeks later your female is very sick because you had her given a miss-mate shot creating a hormonal imbalance causing a uterine infection and now she has Pyometra and needs a complete hysterectomy. All plans of getting a litter is gone and your female's life is now in danger if she does not have the operation. 
WHAT IF DURING THE BIRTH 


The puppies are too large for the female. She never goes into labor, the puppies die and she becomes infected by the decaying bodies. 
The puppies are coming breech and they drown in their own sacks before they can be born. 
The first puppy is large and breech. When it starts coming your female starts screaming, and before you can stop her she reaches around, grabs the puppy in her teeth and yanks it out killing it instantly. 
A puppy gets stuck. Neither your female nor you can get it out. You have to race her to the vet. The vet can't get it out either. She has to have an emergency caesarian section of course it is 3:00 am Christmas day. 
A puppy is coming out breech and dry (the water sack that protects them has burst). It gets stuck. Mom tries to help it out by clamping her teeth over one of the back legs. The head and shoulders are firmly caught. Mom pulls on the leg, hard, peeling the flesh from the leg and leaving a wiggling stump of bone. 
A dead puppy gets stuck in the birth canal, but your female is well into hard labor. She contracts so hard trying to give birth that her uterus ruptures and she bleeds to death on the way to the vet. 
WHAT IF DIRECTLY AFTER THE BIRTH 


The mother has no idea what to do with a puppy and she drops them out and walks away, leaving them in the sack to drown. 
The mother takes one look at the puppies, decides they are disgusting droppings and tries to smother them in anything she can find to bury them in. 
The mother gets too enthusiastic in her removal of the placenta and umbilical cord, and rips the cord out leaving a gushing hole pulsing blood all over you as you try in vain to stop the bleeding. 
Or, she pulls on the cords so hard she disembowels the puppies as they are born and you have a box full of tiny, kicking babies with a tangle of guts the size of a walnut hanging from their stomachs. Of course all the babies must be put to sleep. 
What if because of some Hormone deficiency she turns vicious allowing no one near her or the babies, who she refuses to nurse, or you have to interfere with. 
You notice something protruding from her vagina when you let her out to pee. You take her to the vet to discover a prolapsed uterus, which needs to be removed. 
WHAT IF WHEN YOU THINK YOU'RE IN THE CLEAR 


One or more of the puppies inhaled fluid during birth, pneumonia develops and death occurs within 36 hours. 
What if the mother's milk goes bad. You lose three of your four puppies before you discover what is wrong. You end up bottle feeding the remaining pup every two hours, day and night. After three days the puppy fades from infection and dies. 
The puppies develop fading puppy syndrome you lose two. You bottle-feeding or tube feeding the last remaining baby. It begins to choke and despite your efforts to clear the airway, the pup stiffens and dies in your hands. 
Your female develops mastitis and her breast ruptures. 
Your female develops a uterine infection from a retained placenta. Her temperature soars to 105. You race her to the vet, he determines she must be spayed. He does the spay in an attempt to save her life, you pay the hundreds of dollars bill. The infection has gone into her blood stream. The infected milk kills all the puppies and the bitch succumbs a day later. 
All the puppies are fine but following the birth the female develops a hormone imbalance. She becomes a fear biter and anytime anyone tries to touch her she viciously attacks them. 
Mom and pups seem fine, the puppies are four weeks old and are at their cutest. However, one day one of the puppies disappears. You search everywhere but you can't find it. A few days later another puppy is gone. And another. You can't figure how on earth the puppies are getting out of their safe 4' x 4' puppy pen. Finally there is only one puppy left. The next morning you find the mother chomping contentedly on what is left of the last murdered puppy. 
WHAT IF THE NEW HOMES AREN'T SO HAPPY 


You give a puppy to a friend. Their fence blows down so they tie the puppy outside while they go to work. A roving dog comes along and kills the puppy. Your friend calls you up to tell you about the poor little puppy and asks when you are having more puppies. 
You sell a puppy to an acquaintance. The next time you see them you ask how the puppy is doing. They tell you that it soiled their new carpet so they took it to the pound 
You sell a puppy to a friend (you give them a good price and payments). They make a couple of tiny payments. Six months later they move to an apartment. They ask you to take it back. You take it back and of course the payments stop. The dog they returned is so shy, and ill mannered from lack of socialization and training it takes you a year of work providing socializing and training to be able to give it away. 
You sell a puppy to a wonderful home. They love her like one of the family. At a vet check done by their vet it is determined that the puppy has a heart murmur. (Your vet found nothing when he checked the puppy before it was sold.) They love their puppy and want the best for her. They have an expensive surgery done. The puppy is fine. They sue you for the medical costs. They win, because you did not have a contract stipulating conditions of guarantee and so as breeder you are responsible for the puppy's genetic health. 
You give a puppy to your mother. She is thrilled. Two years later the puppy starts developing problems. It begins to develop odd symptoms and is suffering. Hundreds and hundreds of dollars worth of tests later it is finally discovered that the dog is suffering from a terminal condition that was inherited. possibly from your female since you know nothing about her family lines. 
One loving home decides your puppy is untrainable, destructive and wants to return the pup and get a full refund, which you have spent on your vet bills. 
One loving couple calls you and is very upset because their pup has crippling hip dysplasia and want to know what you are going to do about it. You have spayed your female so a replacement is out of the question, looks like another refund. 
THE SALE 




this was written by Laura Turner and located at http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html


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## Snowshoe

You put your ad in the local paper for your pups at the usual price and get only 2 responses and no sales. You cut the pup's price in half and broaden your advertising to 3 other newspapers in which the advertising totals $120.00 a week. 
You get a few more puppy inquiries from people who ask all about health testing you did before breeding and if the pups are registered. You tell them your dogs are healthy and it was enough and that you could get the papers. The callers politely thank you and hang up. 
The pups are now 4 months old and getting bigger , eating alot and their barking is really beginning to annoy the neighbors who call the police who inform you of the $150.00 noise by-law. 
Your neighbors also call the humane society who comes out to inspect the care of your dogs. You pass inspection but end up feeling stressed and harassed. 
You finally decide to give the rest of the litter away but still have to pay the $1200.00 advertising bill and the $600.00 vet bill. 
So you gotta ask yourself: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, "breeder?" 

Written by Laura Turner, found at http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html


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## minschnauzercookie

Well I did want to learn something and I have. All of your comments make sense and I agree with most of them. Our puppy is so sweet and the kids adore her. My husband and I hoped that in a few years they would have the opourtunity to see her have a litter but I am sure they would rather have her around longer than have a litter. On a different note- all the talk about backyard breeders and puppymills have me terrified. How will I be able to tell if she is going to be a sickly pup? Are they any signs I should be watching for? She doesn't have a cough or anything obvious now.


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## minschnauzercookie

Snowshoe said:


> You put your ad in the local paper for your pups at the usual price and get only 2 responses and no sales. You cut the pup's price in half and broaden your advertising to 3 other newspapers in which the advertising totals $120.00 a week.
> You get a few more puppy inquiries from people who ask all about health testing you did before breeding and if the pups are registered. You tell them your dogs are healthy and it was enough and that you could get the papers. The callers politely thank you and hang up.
> The pups are now 4 months old and getting bigger , eating alot and their barking is really beginning to annoy the neighbors who call the police who inform you of the $150.00 noise by-law.
> Your neighbors also call the humane society who comes out to inspect the care of your dogs. You pass inspection but end up feeling stressed and harassed.
> You finally decide to give the rest of the litter away but still have to pay the $1200.00 advertising bill and the $600.00 vet bill.
> So you gotta ask yourself: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, "breeder?"
> 
> Written by Laura Turner, found at http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/breeding/breeder2.html


Easy girl...no growling...I was asking for advice...not a lashing.


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## Snowshoe

First, I'm not a dog. No need to call me "girl" or tell me to stop "growling." I find that insulting. 

Secondly, even though I wish I could take credit for that, I didn't write it myself. 

If you click the links on the bottom of the post, you'd know that. I always cite my sources.


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## minschnauzercookie

*Okay then.....*

It seemed harsh...source or not. I wasn't claiming to be a breeder or even asking how to become one. Anyhow- your first post made me think and the next one was just over the top. I came to this site to ask for advice from people who love dogs but I expected them to be nice to people too. Thanks anyway.


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## minschnauzercookie

Thank you I will take that into consideration.


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## Keno's Mom

Cookie,

It's hard to sometimes stop and count to 10 when you have people coming here (or in real life) wanting to breed just one time. Too many "one time" puppies/dogs are sitting in shelters right now.

We want the breeders who are serious about their breed and want to improve both the health and type of the breed to be the ones that are breeding. Its too much work, expense, etc. to just let your dog have a litter - or put the male out for stud. You should be responsible for EVERY puppy you bring into this world. And a good breeder with neuter/spay before they go to their new homes. They will test their own dogs for health problems (which can get quite expensive for clearances). The goal should be to produce BETTER then the parents - not the opposite.

If you want another puppy, go to the breed rescue groups or take a look at Petfinder.com or your local shelter to adopt. You'll be much happier that way.


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## Curbside Prophet

minschnauzercookie said:


> How will I be able to tell if she is going to be a sickly pup? Are they any signs I should be watching for? She doesn't have a cough or anything obvious now.


Elsa is a product of a puppy mill. She's now almost 2, healthy, and spayed. There's no way for me or even someone with a health guarantee for their dog to be able to predict if she will be sick tomorrow or later in the future. This is something every dog owner must consider when getting a dog regardless. Therefore, if your dog is healthy now, be happy, and love her regardless of what her future may hold. I would hope, and you should too, that your dog will live a happy and healthy life for no other reason than because you're there. So enjoy this dog as you would any loved pet.


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## DogAdvocat

minschnauzercookie said:


> Hi I am new to the forum so I am hoping to learn something
> So...I just learned that our new puppy Cookie our Miniature Schnauzer has APRI papers and not AKC- I was mislead and feel awful about that. Our puppy is just adorable though and the vet says she is in perfect health so I have to wonder about all the postings on this forum. Some said have a dog spayed because she is not AKC? I am confused about that statement. She can't/shouldn't ever have a litter because she doesn't belong to the better of the two organizations? If we don't plan to have a show dog (and are okay with that)and assume her puppies won't be show dogs (and are okay with that too) then why would we have her spayed? Am I missing something?


The problem is that no responsible breeder (one that was breeding for health and temperament, and actually knew how to do so) would register their dogs with fly-by-night registries like the APRI, who will basically register anything that accompanies a fee. Many puppymillers abandoned the AKC ship when the AKC started being a little stricter on their own requirements, and most of these sub-standard breeders will give excuses like they didn't like the AKC policies or they had an argument with the AKC, instead of just admitting that they are irresponsible and poor quality breeders.

It isn't a foregone conclusion that a breeder registering with the AKC is a responsible breeder either, but there's a far better chance of it than if they register with the other bogus registries. The choice of registry is only the beginning of the decision on whether a breeder is responsible or not, and whether they are producing quality puppies.

So, the reason for having a dog spayed who isn't AKC is because it wasn't bred responsibly and therefore doesn't have quality worth passing on to another generation. This doesn't mean, by any means, that your dog isn't wonderful and a great pet, and appears healthy on the surface -- what it means is that she doesn't have the excellence to warrant passing on. And a healthy dog at two years, doesn't indicate what she's going to be at 5 years, 8 years, or 12 years. Example? One of my dogs was perfectly healthy until the age of 5, when he developed back problems (dachshund) that required surgery and he was paralyzed for a year. If I had bred him, he would have passed that on to his offspring, and he could have produced first and second generation dogs that would have suffered and their owners would have spent a small fortune trying to help their dogs -- and if their dogs had gone on to produce more dogs before they knew???? At the age of 10, my dachshund developed pancreatic failure, and nothing could be done, so we had to euthanize him. It broke my heart, and it was all because a breeder decided to breed what s/he thought was healhty young dogs - assuming they even cared that much. It's not uncommon for puppymillers to breed anything that can produce, no matter how bad off it was. One puppymill auctioneer was heard telling breeders that the dog for sale was blind, but it sure didn't stop her from producing puppies.

Example 2, my perfectly healthy Bichon Frise, at the age of 8 developed luxated lens (disease of the eye) which caused blindness, not to mention terrible pain, and the other eye was also affected, but she went blind in that eye when a board certified ophthalmologist tried to save her sight by removing the remaining lens. This is a hereditary disease, but the breeder either didn't bother to have her dogs tested, or she didn't care. And again, if I'd bred my dog, she would have passed it on to her offspring. But then I could say, at the age of 2, that she was perfectly healthy too, just like yours.

There is so much more that needs to go into the decision to breed besides just whether the dog appears healthy at a young age, what registry it's with, how cute it is, or whether friends/relatives want one. And when you say you don't want a show dog or show puppies, that "shows" us that you aren't interested in finding out if your dog is of a quality that is likely to produce quality puppies. The pound is full of "healthy" dogs that were bred to "healthy" dogs whose owners didn't care about shows or registries, or anything else that would have proved their dog to be worth founding the next generation on.


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## Snowshoe

Excellent post, DA. 

Yes, Keno's Mom- you're totally right about the needing to take a breath and count to 10. 

I think what got me was on that one post where she said she didn't care if her dog was quality, or whether the puppies would be quality. I admit, when I read that I sighed on the inside and thought, "Aren't there enough poor quality dogs in the world? Do we really need a litter more?" 

So yeah, the information I chose to dispense to her was from a breeder who has fiesty views on dog breeding. 

I PROMISED that I was going to take a sabbatical from the BYB threads... but every time I see something like that, I hit the "submit reply" button before I know what's going on!


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## workingdog

Anyone can start a dog registry and put on shows.


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## Keno's Mom

Snow I know exactly what you mean. I do the same thing. I guess its cause of being in the cat fancy and trying to educate people on quality. Just kinda spills over to the dogs too - same principles!


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## DaisyRanger

I read a few of the posts on this thread and I'm really not too interested in reading the entire thread. In my opinion the AKC is just as phoney as any of the other dog registries everyone seems to be buzzing about, not to mention they are complete snobs! My family has had boxers for many, many years and have a pure love for the breed. Growing up with them all my life, I had an AKC registered boxer who was the most gorgeous dog I've ever seen. When I looked at his pedigree I was completely baffled by the fact that this supposed champion bloodline boxer had a WHITE boxer in its line. Here is a copy and paste from the AKC site itself as to the disqualifications of the breed:

Color
The colors are fawn and brindle. Fawn shades vary from light tan to mahogany. The brindle ranges from sparse but clearly defined black stripes on a fawn background to such a heavy concentration of black striping that the essential fawn background color barely, although clearly, shows through (which may create the appearance of reverse brindling). White markings, if present, should be of such distribution as to enhance the dog's appearance, but may not exceed one-third of the entire coat. They are not desirable on the flanks or on the back of the torso proper. On the face, white may replace part of the otherwise essential black mask, and may extend in an upward path between the eyes, but it must not be excessive, so as to detract from true Boxer expression. The absence of white markings, the so-called "plain" fawn or brindle, is perfectly acceptable, and should not be penalized in any consideration of color. Disqualifications Boxers that are any color other than fawn or brindle. *Boxers with a total of white markings exceeding one-third of the entire coat.*

There it is in black and white. My boxer developed cancer and had to be put down. I never bred him....had the white boxer not been in his ancestry, I might have. I certainly had offers to breed him everywhere I went. Did I love him any less?? Hell no! He was the best damn dog anyone could ever hope for. Was he smart?? He was the smartest damn dog on the block and the most attractive. I don't care what a piece of paper says. NOBODY can guarantee anything! Does a marriage certificate guarantee your marriage? Its just paper. Paper is meaningless. 

Now I hear so much crap about people who get their dogs from puppymills or where ever else. What the heck does it matter where you get your dog from? Its how responsible you are when you have it, how well you train it, and love it. 

I volunteered my time to my local Humane Society. I had pure satisfaction walking those poor dogs whenever I could go down there. Its not their fault they are there. If they could have chosen, do you think they'd have?? I seriously doubt it! Month after month, I saw so many different types of dogs in and out of there. My heart reached out to a little Pekingnese--who was picked up as a stray. My guess is that he escaped and ran away from home. Yes, he is PURE BREED. And let me tell you, I wish I could find out who his owners were! He was so badly matted and tested heartworm positive. I seriously inquired about adopting him. Yes, I paid a small fee to adopt him. I could have purchased 3 more dogs from a breeder, I had the money to do so. To me, it wasn't about that. It was about rescuing this poor dog from his situation and giving him a future...a loving stable home to call his own. The staff tried to talk me out of adopting him telling me how many dogs they get back dead because the owners who adopt heartworm positive dogs don't really know how to take care of them after the treatment they undergo to rid them. I was bound and determined. If I didn't think I could have handled this responsibility, I NEVER would have sought him. To date, 2 years later, he is blessed with a beautiful family and home. I love him to pieces. I have no papers, other than his adoption papers, that secure our bond. We don't need any. He is a beautiful dog! His hair grew in nicely and he gets the proper heartworm pills on time every month. I rescued him and that is enough for me. I am proud and fullfilled just knowing that.

People like to flash AKC papers all around the place but they don't make you wise or responsible. Just means you are ignorant when you don't take the time to educate yourself about your dog. 

Acquiring a pure breed from a breeder doesn't necessarily mean that you obtained a pup from a reputible person. The AKC pushes buying your puppies from breeders only. There ARE good petstores out there and I, for one, will not rule out ever buying from one. How can you be 100% sure and/or trusting in people these days?? I do not put trust in people. When someone wins my trust, its because they earned it. Otherwise, this person is just as phoney as the next one.

I'm tired of snobs. For all we know the APRI could have been born because they got tired of AKC. I hope some day another registry will be good enough to break up that little clique and monopoly they have going. 

Pets are to be loved, pure and simple. Should it matter if our dog is a champion or not?? Ask any proud pet owner what they think of their dog and they will tell you they have a champion in their own right. Enough said, I'm off the soap box for the day. Thanks.


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## Kerry

Snowshoe, I don't see AKC registration as being anything great. 
"There is a widely held belief that "AKC" or "AKC papers" and quality are one and the same. This is not the case. AKC is a registry body. A registration certificate identifies the dog as the offspring of a known sire and dam, born on a known date. It in no way indicates the quality or state of health of the dog." - from the AKC website. 
There is also a good chance that the breeder is not being truthful about the information on the slip....AKC doesn't really check. They just count on the integrity of the breeder.


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## Curbside Prophet

Yes, it does matter if the dog is proven in a ring. To insure that your breeder is responsible, they must prove their breeding program by having their dogs judged amongt their peers. Whether it's in the show ring, or in trials, the responsible breeder will always test their breeding program. You are correct in saying that an owner needs to do their homework, however, if you're going to buy a purebred, it's incorrect to suggest that proof of the dog's worth isn't necessary. It is necessary as that's what responsible breeders do. It may be snobby to flash pedigrees, but if they've done their homework, and bought their dog from the best breeder possible, that breeder should be rewarded with dog owners who are willing to flash their pedigree. For no other reason than to show support for responsible breeders. And I'm sorry, but no responsible breeder will sell pups from a pet store, period. No one is saying these dogs don't deserve love, but the breeders who produce them don't deserve our hard earned money. And before you generalize all show ring breeders as snobs, maybe you should look into what they do for their breed before criticising them. Yes, there are exceptions, and good breeders are hard to find, and no there isn't a 100% gurantee on people. But if you do your homework like you suggested, reputable breeders do show their dogs in one arena or another. So unless you're going to demand more from all breeders, you might want to hold back criticising those who actually are responsible...like many show ring breeders.


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## MagicToller

> AKC doesn't really check.They just count on the integrity of the breeder.


http://www.akc.org/about/depts/investigations.cfm

Personally, I have mixed feeling on the entire situation. I know that the AKC in no way guarantees soundness of the dogs registered with their seal, but it does account for something. As an entire entity, I trust it a thousand times more than I can trust miller registries. There are crooked people involved in all registries who are out to get money based on reputation and demand for a high quality animal, but that doesn't tarnish the entire registry. The AKC provides sanctioned events to create venues to prove dogs in conformation, agility, obedience, lurecoursing, etc. as well as rescue foundations and events to reinforce responsible ownership and ethical breeding. I can't say the same for some of these Miller Registries.

Red lights should be going off in your head if advertisements chant "AKC Papers!".

Some of the things you want to look for is.. 

"Dogs proven in many venues including : .."
"Years breeding : .."
"Litters a year : .."
"Following genetic testing has been done : .."


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## DaisyRanger

I will reiterate from my initial post, AKC never should have allowed a white boxer to be registered...yet, I had a boxer with AKC registration and his pedigree named a WHITE boxer in his ancestry. Anyone who knows Boxers, knows that all white boxers are disqualifications for AKC registration. Had they done their homework instead of just issuing papers, they'd have realized they registered a boxer that never should have been. What then? You still think they are reputable?? I surely don't.

Ohh one more thing, my so-called AKC champion blood line boxer was obtained from a breeder too.


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## Curbside Prophet

DaisyRanger said:


> I will reiterate from my initial post, AKC never should have allowed a white boxer to be registered...yet, I had a boxer with AKC registration and his pedigree named a WHITE boxer in his ancestry. Anyone who knows Boxers, knows that all white boxers are disqualifications for AKC registration. Had they done their homework instead of just issuing papers, they'd have realized they registered a boxer that never should have been. What then? You still think they are reputable?? I surely don't.


No, I actually think the "breeder" is not reputable. But in it's current state, the AKC does not have the power to verify all breeders are reputable. So if you're point is that you should know that a breeder who calls their boxers "white boxers" isn't a reputable breeder, I would agree with you. But to point fingers at the AKC, I would say is not the appropriate place to point fingers. You would be closer to the target by pointing fingers at the individual/specific breed clubs, but the responsibility still remains on the breeders...where it should be. It would be nice if the AKC could act as a governing agency to control breeding practices, but I don't see that happening anytime soon, although they are making efforts to organize information better. Regardless, AKC papers mean nothing without all the other checks necessary in finding a pup...to that point I agree. However, to claim they are entirely worthless based on one anecdotal example, I'd say is hasty. As a registry of registries, The AKC is the best we have here in the states, with very few exceptions, and APRI is definitely not an exception.


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## DaisyRanger

Hogwash! They WERE responsible for allowing papers on a dog that was clearly written on the pedigree as WHITE, a disqualification. The breeder was very irresponsible, I agree, but AKC was just as irresponsible for allowing these papers to go through. If they don't regulate, they are just as phoney as the other pet registries that are being dis-counted. That was my point and will remain as such.


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## Curbside Prophet

DaisyRanger said:


> Hogwash! They WERE responsible for allowing papers on a dog that was clearly written on the pedigree as WHITE, a disqualification. The breeder was very irresponsible, I agree, but AKC was just as irresponsible for allowing these papers to go through. If they don't regulate, they are just as phoney as the other pet registries that are being dis-counted. That was my point and will remain as such.


Care to give any anecdotal evidence on how you're perfect? Or do you have a plan on how the AKC can give guarantees, or how and why they should interfere in the customer/breeder transaction? Because if you're point is that the AKC is "phoney" because of one obvious anecdotal example of an error without proof of intention, I still contend that's hasty, and will remain as such.


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## DaisyRanger

You have no way of ever knowing that this is just ONE error. How many dogs do they register each day, week, month...or year??!! If they handle them all the way they handled this one, god help us all. We'll all have been had. LMAO!!! 

Proceed with caution when purchasing a pet from ANYWHERE and proceed with caution when papering your dog...AKC or otherwise!


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## Curbside Prophet

DaisyRanger said:


> You have no way of ever knowing that this is just ONE error. How many dogs do they register each day, week, month...or year??!! If they handle them all the way they handled this one, god help us all. We'll all have been had. LMAO!!!
> 
> Proceed with caution when purchasing a pet from ANYWHERE and proceed with caution when papering your dog...AKC or otherwise!


I can agree with these points..."IF" they handled every registration with an intention this way it would be a problem. Regardless, the reponsibility still remains between the breeder/customer...period. And I whole heartedly agree that everyone should proceed with caution when buying any dog. As it always seems to come down to this: Where good dogs come from. - Dog Forums - all breed dog forum.


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## DaisyRanger

Care to give any anecdotal evidence on how you're perfect? Or do you have a plan on how the AKC can give guarantees, or how and why they should interfere in the customer/breeder transaction?


No, I don't care to give any anecdotal evidence on how I'm perfect, I'm not here for that. I read this thread and saw how much you people have been chastising others for obtaining their dogs from various sources and/or having non akc registered pooches. When its quite obvious you may have never heard any of the sad stories, such as one like mine. Yeah, I have a bad taste in my mouth about AKC. And its not my job to figure out how they can improve, I'm not here for that either. If it were my organization, I'd be improving it though. I'm just here to make a simple post. Haha. Thats it, plain and simple. I read a post where someone said go to the APRI website and then go to AKC and see which one "looks" more reputable. A website is a website. I can make one look BETTER than AKC...does that make me more reputable then them?? Come on!!!!!!


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## Curbside Prophet

The point was there are more red flags on the APRI site than the AKC site. To someone who's knowledgable about what should be contained on the website, the red flags of the APRI site is obvious. It doesn't take a genious to see that information is lacking severely. And if the APRI site should ever contend to be valuable, an effort must be obvious. The fact is it's not. So as a starting point, the AKC website wins hands down. It's a starting point, it should not be misconstrued as evidence of quality for the puppy you buy. Again, only a knowledgable owner can assure their pups quality by the choices they make. And I'm sorry, anecdotes don't hold much water with me. Did you confront the AKC? Who have you spoken to about your case?


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## Cheetah

You can still register a dog of a disqualified color, coat length, etc. as long as it's purebred, but it doesn't mean that dog will win any shows. If I hadn't neutered my "fluffy" corgi, they would have let him through too, but I would have been laughed out of the show ring. Registration doesn't mean jack if the dog isn't shown and proven in the ring.

I still think it's disgusting of the APRI to run contests where you win free pet store dogs etc. and I still do not recognise them as a reputable place to register my dog.


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## Snowshoe

Kerry said:


> Snowshoe, I don't see AKC registration as being anything great.
> "There is a widely held belief that "AKC" or "AKC papers" and quality are one and the same. This is not the case. AKC is a registry body. A registration certificate identifies the dog as the offspring of a known sire and dam, born on a known date. It in no way indicates the quality or state of health of the dog." - from the AKC website.
> There is also a good chance that the breeder is not being truthful about the information on the slip....AKC doesn't really check. They just count on the integrity of the breeder.


Well, duh! LOL! 

That's why you have to research the breeder too! I think I've said that about 1,0000000000 times on this forum. 

Being AKC is only ONE WAY out of MANY WAYS to tell if a breeder is quality. Sheesh!


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## Lorina

> You can still register a dog of a disqualified color, coat length, etc. as long as it's purebred, but it doesn't mean that dog will win any shows.


That kind of answers what I was going to ask. I don't know much about the AKC and what the terminology means. If something is a "disqualification," does that mean it can't be registered, or is a disqualification from the show ring? I always thought it was a disqualification from the ring, because some disqualifications aren't apparent at birth. For instance, I know Pekingese can't be over 14 pounds, but that wouldn't be known when a pup is first registered.


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## Laurelin

Cheetah said:


> You can still register a dog of a disqualified color, coat length, etc. as long as it's purebred, but it doesn't mean that dog will win any shows. If I hadn't neutered my "fluffy" corgi, they would have let him through too, but I would have been laughed out of the show ring. Registration doesn't mean jack if the dog isn't shown and proven in the ring.
> 
> I still think it's disgusting of the APRI to run contests where you win free pet store dogs etc. and I still do not recognise them as a reputable place to register my dog.


I was just about to say this. Not all AKC registered dogs are showable. Many are DQs, it's up to the breeder to fix them . It wouldn't be allowed in the show ring, but if the dog is from registered parents, it can be registered.


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## nrhareiner

Curbside Prophet said:


> The point was there are more red flags on the APRI site than the AKC site. To someone who's knowledgable about what should be contained on the website, the red flags of the APRI site is obvious. It doesn't take a genious to see that information is lacking severely. And if the APRI site should ever contend to be valuable, an effort must be obvious. The fact is it's not. So as a starting point, the AKC website wins hands down. It's a starting point, it should not be misconstrued as evidence of quality for the puppy you buy. Again, only a knowledgable owner can assure their pups quality by the choices they make. And I'm sorry, anecdotes don't hold much water with me. Did you confront the AKC? Who have you spoken to about your case?


If you think that the AKC site is good you should go look at some real registration sites. AKC is so lacking it is not funny. There is so much they can do to not only improve their site but also the registry. I actually find the AKC a joke when it comes to registries. Sad thing is it is the best for Dog registires in this country.

Heidi


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## Curbside Prophet

nrhareiner said:


> If you think that the AKC site is good you should go look at some real registration sites. AKC is so lacking it is not funny. There is so much they can do to not only improve their site but also the registry. I actually find the AKC a joke when it comes to registries. Sad thing is it is the best for Dog registires in this country.
> 
> Heidi


I'm sticking with comparing apples to apples, thank you. And again, AKC registration has very little to do with one's overall scheme in buying the best pup for them. In fact, not all good pups come with AKC registration because some breeds aren't recognized by the AKC...take the Portuguese Podengo for instance. I would still only buy from a breeder who was an active member of the Portuguese Podengo Club of America, but AKC registration wouldn't be a requirement. And yes, as a registry of registries, the AKC is the best America has...no other registry in America is recognized in other countries like the AKC. Where the parent dogs are registered is only one factor among many factors that one should look at when buying a pup. Never had I said it was an end all or the only factor to consider. Unless you're an advocat for rescue only, I can't see how anyone could advocate APRI over the AKC under any normal circumstance. Not saying that anyone is, but to bash the AKC without commenting on APRI, it's implied advocacy for APRI. So bash the heck out of both of them, or at the very least the worst offender first.


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## nrhareiner

It was stated that the judge of a registry was based on the web site and info there in. TO me AKC and all other dog registries are a POOR example of a registry. If you are looking for the best dog then the registry is one of the best tools out there and the AKC is so lacking in what it does it is not funny.

Also to say comparing Apples to Apples a animal registry no matter what breed it is is still an animal reigistry and they can and should provide all stats on each animal and make that info available to it membership and AKC does not.

Does AKC papers garentee a great dog? No it does not nor does any registry. However if they did more to compile info on each dog that is being bred and shown and the crosses and such and breeders and people looking for a pup could use this info to help make a more informed educated desitions posible.

Heidi


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## Curbside Prophet

The argument is APRI vs. AKC. It's not about what can be improved about the AKC. We could write volumes on that subject alone. Just as people could write volumes about how our governments and public school systems could be improved. But in the argument of APRI vs. AKC, to point our where the AKC is lacking as an argument does nothing to highlight the weaknesses of APRI. My point has been and will be if you do your homework properly, a pup's parents will most likely be AKC registered, and not APRI registered. Again, that assumes you do your homework properly...most people don't. Most people don't even know why they should have a certain breed outside of looks, much less look into the parent dog's lineage. So until the communal will changes in that aspect, the AKC will only improve as quickly as they deem fit. Much like how governments and public shcools are changed.


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## nrhareiner

Like I said yes AKC is the better of 2 evals. That being said it does have so fare to go will it every change. Probable not b/c the breeders who use AKC to register their dogs do not want this info made public. WHY? What is wrong with people knowing what your animal has or has not done. Why are they so secritive? What are they hiding? Why is it so hard to get info on any dog? These are just a few of the problems I see with AKC and most of the other dog registries out there. It is easyer to get info form the CIA then from AKC on a dog or owner.

Heidi


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## Curbside Prophet

I would contend that if a breeder withholds information from a customer, the customer should withhold patronizing the breeder. The AKC should be there to help the customer when there is a question, but I would not expect the AKC to interfere with the breeder/customer transaction. That's not their role. If there is a question on the recorded parentage it's the customer's responsibility to request DNA testing. The AKC isn't buying the dog, the customer is. So I contend the responsibility is in the right place. Can a library do more to categorize their books, certainly, but can they do anything to stop you from checking out one book over another, no.


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## nrhareiner

Curbside Prophet said:


> I would contend that if a breeder withholds information from a customer, the customer should withhold patronizing the breeder. The AKC should be there to help the customer when there is a question, but I would not expect the AKC to interfere with the breeder/customer transaction. That's not their role. If there is a question on the recorded parentage it's the customer's responsibility to request DNA testing. The AKC isn't buying the dog, the customer is. So I contend the responsibility is in the right place. Can a library do more to categorize their books, certainly, but can they do anything to stop you from checking out one book over another, no.


My point is HOW WOULD YOU KNOW what the breeder is telling you is the truth if you can not go and varifie it. That is the role of AKC I should able to call them or get on their web site and varify what the breeder is telling me. I should be able to varify ownership, Breeding records, get records, show records, and any other info I want. As it stands now I can go to a breeder and say hay what has your dog done and what has your dog produced where was it shown? What is the best cross on these lines and so much more and they can tell me just about anything they want. There is very little I can varifie through AKC and that is not right THAT IS AKC JOB. They should keep records and make them available to every member who wants them. As it stands now you can not get any substantial info. I know I have checked on my pups.

AKC's role is to varifie parentage and make sure that what breeders are doing it correct. DNA testing should be requiered for every breeding dog registerd with AKC before any litter or pup can be registered. If they are going to varifie a pedigree then that is what it should be no if and or buts about it.

My horses are all DNA Typed and parentage varifed and it is stated right on their papers with a number to call and varifie it. If there is any know genetic defect in their lines it is also stated on their papers and if they have been DNA tested for the defect and what the results are. I can pull any record on any horse I want. There should be the same with any large registry. Heck there are even small registries who requier this and keep this type of info and make it avalable to it membership.

What is up to the owner is to varifie what the breeder or person selling the animal is correct. However to do so requiers a Registry that is held responsible to keep track of such things. I do not care how responsible a breeder or person it I still want to varifie it through a registry. 

EX: I bought a mare from a very good friend of mine. She has over 40 years of breeding NRHA reining horse she has owned NRHA Hall Of Fame horses and horses show are world champions furutiry re champions and much much more. Her reputation is impecable in the reining world. However when she told me what she had and asked if I wanted to work out a deal I still went and varified everything she told me even ownership on the mare. I knew sire record and I knew dams sire record however I still looked everything up dams produce record show record and so on. Why? Not b/c I did not trust what she was telling me but I wanted to see for myself. Does not mean she is a bad breeder or person I just wanted to know. B/C I could varify what she was telling I made the deal site unseen.

Heidi


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## Curbside Prophet

DNA Parentage Profile

So are you saying $20 is too much for verification?


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## nrhareiner

Curbside Prophet said:


> DNA Parentage Profile
> 
> So are you saying $20 is too much for verification?


No what I am saying is that every dog being used for breeding should be DNA Typed and parentage varfied before any litter or pup can be registed out of those dogs. 

If the owner of the pup wants to DNA type the pup that is up to them and then they can parantage varify the pup however the new owner should not have to pay for each parent it should already be on file with AKC.

Heidi


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## Curbside Prophet

I would agree, it would be better for the buyer if it weren't voluntary. I would contend then that it should be a consideration of a breeder's quality if they didn't volunteer this information and for $20, I'd do it in a heartbeat if I were to ever buy a pup.


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## nrhareiner

I know that both of my pups will be DNA typed weither they are bred or not. There are just so many things I would like to see changed with AKC and it would be so easy. However after talking to AKC about these things what I get is that the majority of breeders do not want this info mad public and I find that odd being from a registry/association who makes all these thing readally available and easally checked.

I may have posted this before and if I did I appoligeze but this is what I would like to see AKC provide on each dog registerd with them. Now not every dog will have these records if they are never shown or bred however the info should still be available and it would just show that the dog has no record b/c it has never been shown. Hope that makes sence. If you look through and this is just part of the record it is way too long to past the entier thing here but you can see the info given on each horse sired by this stallion.

You can see it give quite a bit of info. This info can be used in many aspects. This same info would be very usefull with dogs also as when it comes down to the basice info needed and breeding 101 they really are the same in many respects.

Heidi

GET OF SIRE DETAIL
Performing Foals of GUN START

REG. NO. HORSE'S NAME COLOR SEX DATE FOAL ST 
1525303 GUN START BAY STALLION 04/01/1979 OH 


Additional Horse Information for GUN START: 

Genetic Typed 
SIRE DAM MATERNAL GRANDSIRE 
1213973 BEAU GUNNER 0752745 PRICE'S START 0227368 JUNO SNORT RED 


DESCRIPTION NAME ADDRESS 
BREEDER: EARL AND/OR GALE COX MIDDLETOWN, OH 
OWNER: BRYAN MAAS PARKSTON, SD 

AQHA Show Totals for GUN START LAST SHOW OPEN
HALTER OPEN PERFORM AMATEUR HALTER AMATEUR PERFORM YOUTH HALTER YOUTH PERFORM NOVICE AMATEUR NOVICE YOUTH EQ W/ DISAB 
06/1987 .0 24.0 .0 .0 .0 .0 .0 .0 .0 

AQHA/Alliance Totals for GUN START 
Accuracy and completeness of information are the responsibility of each alliance. NATIONAL REINING HORSE ASSOCIATION $ 4,695.13 Earned thru 11/17/1984 

Achievements for GUN START YEAR TYPE DESCRIPTION 
1983 OPEN WORLD SHOW JR REINING 3rd PLACE 
1983 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

GUN START'S Performing Offspring 



NARA GUNNER 2284225 Black Mare 06/01/1984 
Dam- TWINKLE JOE RIO 0455702 Damsire- TRIPLE TWINKLE 0199271 
Show: 06/1987 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

RWD START 2286987 Sorrel Gelding 04/01/1984 
Dam- POCOTALICO 0715576 Damsire- DART'S ZERO BAR 0451836 
Show: 09/1992 Open- H- .0 P- 20.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .5 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
Novice Amateur- P- 2.0 Novice Youth- P- .0 Eq w/ Disabilities- P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 78,022.90 Earned thru 11/05/1989 
Achievement: 1992 OPEN QUALIFIED SR REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1992 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

GUN STARTS REMO 2438131 Bay Stallion 04/01/1985 1996 Breeding Season Incentive Fund Stallion; Genetic Typed 
Dam- MERRY JESSIE 0573240 Damsire- JESSIE JAMES 0002257 
Show: 11/1992 Open- H- .0 P- 17.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 2,332.23 Earned thru 07/06/1991 
Achievement: 1991 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

THE FASTEST START 2415772 Bay Gelding 06/01/1985 
Dam- LADY SUGAR PIU 0970658 Damsire- SUGAR JAGUAR 0721436 
Show: 11/1998 Open- H- .5 P- 1.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .5 P- 199.0 
Novice Amateur- P- .0 Novice Youth- P- 138.5 Eq w/ Disabilities- P- .0 
Achievement: 1995 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1992 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1990 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

GUN STARTS TOP GUN 2570983 Deceased Sorrel Gelding 04/01/1986 
Dam- THIRD LIZ 0906454 Damsire- CONTINENTAL KING 0081640 
Show: 03/2001 Open- H- .0 P- 34.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- 23.5 Youth- H- .0 P- 22.0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 11,122.99 Earned thru 06/27/1999 
Achievement: 1993 OPEN QUALIFIED SR REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1993 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1993 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1990 AMATEUR PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

HANKS TOP GUN 2573322 Bay Gelding 04/01/1986 
Dam- HEATHER HANK 1540620 Damsire- BROTHER HANK 0422259 
Show: 07/1995 Open- H- .0 P- 5.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- 10.0 Youth- H- .0 P- 19.5 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 366.31 Earned thru 09/19/1993 
Achievement: 1995 AMATEUR PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1991 YOUTH HIGH POINT REINING 8th PLACE 
Achievement: 1991 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT


----------



## wimersweiners

*Man someone break out the fire hose *


----------



## cindyareed

Hello,

I recently placed a deposit on a 3 week old goldendoodle pup. I just found out that the dad (standard poodle) is AKC registered and the mom (golden retriever) is APRI registered. Should I be concerned? I've read the posts in this thread, and am still so confused as to whether or not it really does matter. We are simply wanting to have a puppy come join our lives as a family pet, and lifelong family member. We aren't interested in breeding or showing this dog. (We are mainly interested in the breed.) Anyway...I just thought I'd throw this out there and see what kind of advice or suggestions I may get. Some have said to "run" and others seem to say it shoudn't matter. Help!

Thanks!


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## Snowshoe

I don't know about what breeds are being discussed, but in my breed there is a pedigree database that you can verify which dogs are what, and whose dog is in whose pedigree, etc. 

For example, here is Orchid's pedigree: 

http://www.keesdog.com/cgi-bin/gen/gpedigree.pl?op=tree&index=n510PBu01&gens=5&db=kees.dbw

It's a good way to learn.


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## Curbside Prophet

cindyareed said:


> Hello,
> 
> I recently placed a deposit on a 3 week old goldendoodle pup. I just found out that the dad (standard poodle) is AKC registered and the mom (golden retriever) is APRI registered. Should I be concerned? I've read the posts in this thread, and am still so confused as to whether or not it really does matter. We are simply wanting to have a puppy come join our lives as a family pet, and lifelong family member. We aren't interested in breeding or showing this dog. (We are mainly interested in the breed.) Anyway...I just thought I'd throw this out there and see what kind of advice or suggestions I may get. Some have said to "run" and others seem to say it shoudn't matter. Help!


I would be one who would tell you to run from an APRI dog. This registry caters to puppy millers and back yard breeders. These are bad words when it comes to dog breeding. We can give you a million reasons why, but many of those ideas have been discussed in this thread. 

Many people will tell you that if you were merely looking for a companion pet, you should consider a shelter first. There are many good dogs looking for homes at a shelter.

But what makes your situation even more complicated is that you're interested in a goldendoodle as a breed. As you know a goldendoodle isn't a breed, it's a mix dog. I would call them a mutt, and I don't consider that word as being anything bad, it's just that I personally would never buy a mutt from a breeder.

Furthermore, since your dog is a mixed breed dog, your breeder was trying to cash in on the designer breed fad. More than likely she made a nice profit off you, and you received no contract or guarantee of the dog's health into adulthood, nor was genetic testing done. I personally would require all these things and more if I were to buy a pup.

So, the bottom line is, there's much to criticise about your deposit, and if I were in your shoes I would seriously reconsider. Regardless if you have no intention in showing or breeding your pup, your breeder must do all the thing necessary to illustrate that you're getting the best dog possible. Anything less than that only illustrates that your breeder isn't concerned for your dog. And you have to answer the question...if they don't care, should I buy from them? My answer would be no.

Where good dogs come from. - General Dog Forum - Dog Forums - all breed dog forum


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## RonE

Most of this thread was posted before I first visited this site. I just read the whole thing and I think I should get some kind of prize for that.

My conclusion is that life is much simpler when you get a shelter dog. 

Everything about my dog is left to the imagination. What, exactly, is she? How old is she? What was her name before the shelter named her Esther? Are there any more out there like her? Did she escape or did somebody kick her out?

I get to make up the answers as we go along.


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## loverofdogs

*ckc*



Keno's Mom said:


> I've never heard of ARPI before till now. *I have heard of the puppy mill CKC (Continental Kennel Club) which is a notorious puppy mill registry. In fact, I just recently went in a local pet shop and noticed that all the puppies in there were CKC registered! I was in a hurry but one day will act dumb and question what is CKC...when they tell me, I will simply tell them "do you know that is a puppy mill registry?"*


I really don't want to get into this, however.......
Although I would never register my dogs with CKC, it is NOT a registry just for pms. I am offended. 
You can do agility, obediance, and a lot more with CKC. I think it is nice that there is an org. like CKC because kids that have mutts that want to be competitive but can't because their dog is not registered with AKC and can't be, they can still compete, have fun, and with a mutt. 
That is all I have to say on this topic. I am moving on, and am not going to post again in this topic. I just wanted to give my 2 cents on CKC.
Thank you and goodbye.
loverofdogs


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## Chicster

I seriously vote to make what Snowshoe posted about "So you're thinking about breeding" a Sticky. It would be a great place to refer the dozens of pet owners coming on here wanting to breed their dogs. No Joke... nudge nudge to the mods


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## dre2142

Seems that one of the issues here is that people buy puppies and are duped by bad information regarding whichever registry the puppy is registered with. They dont want to admit they were duped, and will do whatever possible to justify their registry. 

This happened with my mom...she can now admit she made a mistake.


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## cascabel

*Re: ckc*



loverofdogs said:


> I really don't want to get into this, however.......
> Although I would never register my dogs with CKC, it is NOT a registry just for pms. I am offended.
> *You can do agility, obediance, and a lot more with CKC. I think it is nice that there is an org. like CKC because kids that have mutts that want to be competitive but can't because their dog is not registered with AKC and can't be, they can still compete, have fun, and with a mutt. *
> That is all I have to say on this topic. I am moving on, and am not going to post again in this topic. I just wanted to give my 2 cents on CKC.
> Thank you and goodbye.
> loverofdogs


AKC is really the only main registry out there that doesn't let mutts compete (and there are talks of them changing that and creating a new category). There are tons of registries out there for mutts to compete in.....

USDAA
NADAC
ASCA
UKC
AMBOR
CPE

The registries listed above hold tons of events and some (like USDAA and NADAC for agility) are more popular than AKC in parts of the country. I have never seen events sponsored by CKC. They seem to only hold a few token events through the country every year. If you have a mutt and want to compete you have tons of options available with the registries listed above. There is no need for the Continental Kennel Club except to promote BYBs and puppy mills.


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## poodleholic

> Acquiring a pure breed from a breeder doesn't necessarily mean that you obtained a pup from a reputible person. The AKC pushes buying your puppies from breeders only.


True.




> There ARE good petstores out there and I, for one, will not rule out ever buying from one.


Anyone who actually buys a puppy from a petstore is only fooling themselves, and lining the pockets of puppymillers. No ethical breeder would EVER place a puppy in a petstore, for obvious reasons!


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## yorkielover4life

I still think it's disgusting of the APRI to run contests where you win free pet store dogs etc. and I still do not recognise them as a reputable place to register my dog.[/QUOTE]



You DO NOT win free pet store dogs! If you register your puppy within 60 days, they enter you in their contest to win the MONEY BACK you paid for that puppy! Which is a wonderful way to encourage people to register their puppies right away. Otherwise they give you a year to register them or pay an extra fee.

I bought my 3 year old AKC yorkie from a lady who never bothered to register him & ended up paying $65 as penalty for registering late, plus the $20 normal fee! As I only paid $200 for him, it was well worth it, but still AKC shouldn't charge that high a fee for filing paperwork late.

Seems to me that AKC cares more about taking money than giving it away!

I dual registered him & my female both thru APRI & all 10 puppies that we've had so far because I have found them to be a wonderful registry. Their customer service is beyond reproach, which is more than I or many people can say for AKC's customer service! APRI will not just register any animal without at least a 3-generation pedigree & they also will dual register an AKC dog for free! They DO NOT just want our money, they actually care more about the dogs, or else they'd charge for this "bonus"!

APRI goes by the breed standard the same as AKC!

AKC actually promotes "imbreeding" and in my book, that's disgusting! I would never take a chance of my babies being born with an arm coming out of their head, or having 6 legs!!

When dual registering an AKC dog, APRI requires that you are in GOOD STANDING with AKC, so no, they do not take "limited registration" AKC dogs just because they have gotten kicked out of AKC!

Angie, my yorkies are my life! I proudly support APRI!


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## Laurelin

yorkielover4life said:


> AKC actually promotes "imbreeding" and in my book, that's disgusting! I would never take a chance of my babies being born with an arm coming out of their head, or having 6 legs!!


That's quite laughable and shows you really don't understand inbreeding and the consequences of inbreeding. It's not going to cause a bunch of random mutations like that.


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## Pai

yorkielover4life said:


> I dual registered him & my female both thru APRI & *all 10 puppies that we've had so far* because I have found them to be a wonderful registry. Their customer service is beyond reproach, which is more than I or many people can say for AKC's customer service! APRI will not just register any animal without at least a 3-generation pedigree & they also will dual register an AKC dog for free! They DO NOT just want our money, they actually care more about the dogs, or else they'd charge for this "bonus"!
> 
> I proudly support APRI!


Because you're a BYB, so obviously you do! 

Do you even _know_ what genetic diseases Yorkies can carry, and have you tested all your dogs for them before you let them breed? ALL purebred dogs are somewhat related, or 'imbred' as you call it, because that's how a purebred breed is CREATED. If you didn't even know _that,_ you shouldn't be breeding dogs at all.


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