# how long to leave a muzzle on?



## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

I have a 4mth old rotty mix who beats the H___ out of my 4 yr old english lab. When they are outside, I let them go at it and it eventually stopps. It's been raining and i let them play indoors. The tables are one way and Gretta is whaling on Georgi - biting,pulling - puppy stuff. It's ok for outside but not inside, but they need to get some energy out. I muzzle her during this 
'Play", but how long do you recommend leaving the muzzle on. She doesn't mind it after a few minutes - it only stops her from the biting.

thanks for any advice
Jackie


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Okay...hang on a sec. 
Your four month old puppy does DAMAGE to the lab when he bites? Or is is just puppy biting? How does the lab react? Is the lab playing too? More details here are necessary. Because.....
You should not be muzzling the pup. One he's not going to learn bite inhibition this way, two allowing him to "practice" the behaviour of too rough play with our without the muzzle is unfair to the older dog AND doesn't teach the pup what's proper play. Without more information it's hard to know why exactly you would think muzzling is appropriate OR necessary.

Give us some more details and maybe we can help you figure out appropriate ways to deal with the issues at hand.


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## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

She play bites - but draws blood - she doesn't give up at all - and georgi lets her do it =- maybe because she has had 2 litters or because she is at the bottom of the "ladder" - she does have enough sometimes and retaliates. The muzzle is on because they are in the house and it gets quite rough - there is no true escape like in the backyard - it seems to keep it somewhat controllable. This is the only time that she is muzzled.


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## DogPaw (Jan 11, 2009)

jackie ramsey said:


> I have a 4mth old rotty mix who beats the H___ out of my 4 yr old english lab. When they are outside, I let them go at it and it eventually stopps. It's been raining and i let them play indoors. The tables are one way and Gretta is whaling on Georgi - biting,pulling - puppy stuff. It's ok for outside but not inside, but they need to get some energy out. I muzzle her during this
> 'Play", but how long do you recommend leaving the muzzle on. She doesn't mind it after a few minutes - it only stops her from the biting.
> 
> thanks for any advice
> Jackie


I don't recommend a muzzle at all! If your 4 year old is not able to get the 4 month old to stop beating up on her then it is your responsibility to step in and protect your older dog. You need to redirect the puppies play to something else. Maybe you should try letting it beat up on you and see how it feels.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

It would be interesting to know at what age the mix puppy was removed from her litter.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

jackie ramsey said:


> She play bites - but draws blood - she doesn't give up at all - and georgi lets her do it =- maybe because she has had 2 litters or because she is at the bottom of the "ladder" - she does have enough sometimes and retaliates. The muzzle is on because they are in the house and it gets quite rough - there is no true escape like in the backyard - it seems to keep it somewhat controllable. This is the only time that she is muzzled.


Georgi may be letting her "do it" because she still has what is called "puppy license" which, given the pups age will be very shortly revoked. When this happens you will have hell to pay and you do NOT want two females to have a true fight as it can affect their relationship forever. You must get a handle on this now.

If she draws blood it is uninhibited biting and that is a rough start and unfair to your older dog. Play should be stopped before it gets that frenzied. Muzzling the pup will NOT teach her not to use her teeth and I don't know what kind of muzzle you are using, but basket muzzles (which are safest for breathing) are HARD and can bruise and injure the other dog. 

If Georgi will not protect herself it is up to you to do it. Do you have a puppy class you can enroll in with a good trainer who can teach you about appropriate play and how to teach bite inhibition? A dog, especially a large breed, without bite inhibition is a loaded gun my friend. 

What sort of puppy training are you doing right now? What other forms of exercise is she getting? How old was she when you got her? If she was removed from her litter too early, bite inhibition learning was not done.

Please check out the stickies in the first time dog owner forums regarding doggy zen and the bite stops here.


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## ozzy29 (Mar 25, 2010)

Do you have a crate? If not you should get one. Rather than the muzzle use a time out on the puppy. When play starts to get rough remove the puppy to the crate. If you do not have a crate you could put the puppy in a separate room for a few minutes. Most dogs get the idea quickly that rough play leads to no play.


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## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

Thanks for all of the advice
1. DogPaw - I understand what you said - BUT try not to be so condescending - nice words tend to go a long way.
2. Redyrerottweilers - we adopted her at 8 weeks from a rescue - she is part rotty and part lab.
3. Cracker - I think it might still be play bitting, and it has calmed down somewhat in the past 6 weeks. Georgi does have enough at times and puts Gretta in her place, but being the puppy, she tends to be quite durable. We have been in puppy Kindergarden for 6 weeks and actually, the instructor said that this muzzle (which is soft and snaps at the top of the head, used inside the house during supervised play in the kitchen and den was acceptable - she has been an instructor for 35 years. As to other forms of excercise - we are outside in the back yard 3x each day running and fetching and doing all of the crazy stuff puppies do - along with recalling, fetching, come, stay, down and the like.

4. Ozzy29 - We have a crate that we use for night sleep, naps (3 per day), time out, and when we leave and can not watch her.

Guys - when the play gets TOO rough, I do seperate them - I don't want anyone getting hurt. All I wanted to know was how much time did people think that having a muzzle on was acceptable. I didn't intend to start this.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Oh no, don't worry about "starting things". It's just hard when we are not given full information so that's where all the questions come in. Go back and read your original post..if it was someone else posting, what would you think? Remember as well, that on an internet forum you are going to get opinions, always. NAture of the beast really. You can take what you think is valuable and ignore the rest. It is all meant in the best possible way and out of concern and love for the dogs. That is all. 

I'm glad you are doing training etc. A soft muzzle should not be on very long, twenty minutes max I would think...it is difficult to breathe, pant etc with one on and the pup can get overheated very quickly.

Your trainer may be great and I hope she is. But I would never have recommended a muzzle for this sort of behaviour because I don't think it is TEACHING the dog anything better to do. Behaviour that gets practiced, becomes cemented and is hard to retrain. Management as management without behaviour modification concurrent with it, always fails.

Since this is apparently supervised play this is how I would do it:
Muzzle off, let the dogs start. Grabbing of ears and collar or neck area. Puppy is removed, leashed and asked to sit. Wait ten seconds. Say "go play" and let puppy back at it. Repeat as necessary. Any inappropriate play (before it gets to bloodletting) is the same procedure. Wash, rinse, repeat. This is premacking the play and using negative punishment to curb the behaviour. Play nice, it continues. Play not so nice, it ends. If after four repeats the lesson is not taking, pup is crated with a chew toy and older dog gets a break. Play session is over. 

Teaching appropriate play behaviours and bite inhibition should be number one on the training list. 

Good luck.


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## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

Thank you Cracker. I do tend to get "offended" sometimes. I guess the time out needs to be more - I just wish Georgi would settle the play before I have to. I know that she was a good momma and just conciders it that - play. It just gets really physical on Gretta's part - like my 7 yr old getting too physical with my 10 yr old. I jump in the middle before the 10 yr old pushes him too hard -same thing - I guess.

thanks for your help

jackie


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Yes, it is exactly like kids. If they get overstimulated bad stuff can happen. It IS nice when the dogs can figure it out on their own but as you see, Georgi is probably TOO tolerant and it has to be up to you. Think about it this way, if the pup did this to another dog because that is how she learned to play and that dog reacted REALLY BADLY you may end up with a fearful and aggressive dog aggressive dog because of it. Manners training includes interactions with members of both the human and dog world and will help keep your pup safe.

And you're welcome.


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## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

Suggestions for other dogs than.. I don't like the dog parks, maybe another group of classes? There is interaction there, but not like dog to dog. What do you think will help?


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Yes, group classes that work on socialization as well as basic OB are a good idea. I highly recommend classes all through the first year at the least. Especially if you don't do the dogpark thing. The more other dogs she meets the better.


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## DogPaw (Jan 11, 2009)

jackie ramsey said:


> Thanks for all of the advice
> 1. DogPaw - I understand what you said - BUT try not to be so condescending - nice words tend to go a long way.
> 2. Redyrerottweilers - we adopted her at 8 weeks from a rescue - she is part rotty and part lab.
> 3. Cracker - I think it might still be play bitting, and it has calmed down somewhat in the past 6 weeks. Georgi does have enough at times and puts Gretta in her place, but being the puppy, she tends to be quite durable. We have been in puppy Kindergarden for 6 weeks and actually, the instructor said that this muzzle (which is soft and snaps at the top of the head, used inside the house during supervised play in the kitchen and den was acceptable - she has been an instructor for 35 years. As to other forms of excercise - we are outside in the back yard 3x each day running and fetching and doing all of the crazy stuff puppies do - along with recalling, fetching, come, stay, down and the like.
> ...


Well the fact that you said you let your younger pup beat the H---- out of your older pup and while they are outside you let them have at it until they stop, and then in the next post you say that the pup plays rough enough to draw blood. At that point I felt bad for your older dog and thought it must be pretty miserable for her.

When I got my bulldog, at 12 weeks, she would bite my GSD. I use to have to make her stop because she would grab his lip and pull. He would whine but he never would correct her. Only when she got older and would pester him would he give a low growl and she would stop.

I am glad to see you have been doing some training.


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## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

Ironically, what you just posted is what is going on here - except gretta goes for the side of the neck- where there is the most hair for protection for geori


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I have been in the dog training business almost 50 yrs and have never muzzled or advised a muzzle for a pup. As others have said if it gets too rough stop and separate. It looks like you are pretty much on top of it. 

Why did you not ask your trainer how long to leave muzzle on. It sounds like you trusted trainer enough to put muzzle on but not enough to go further. If he/she advises the muzzle then they should have proper answers as to why, when and how long etc.

It's kind of weird advice and just because someone is an instructor or a plumber or even a Dr for 35 yrs it does not mean they are at the top of their game.


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## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

It might be wierd - but to someone who is trying to fix/solve a situation before it get totally out of hand - I am researching all suggestions and trying to find one that best fits our situation. Someone who is in the business clearly knows more than I do. Just as I value my kids doctors - I don't take everything at full value, but clearly know and understand that they know more than I do.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

I've had a lot of puppies in here as fosters (up until I adopted my latest foster) and while many have pestered Elka to the point of exhaustion; none have ever drawn blood.

If your adult is not telling the puppy off (Elka climbs into my arms for help, but will almost never tell a puppy off) then its your job to realize when it's gone too far. With puppies I'd put them into the crate for a nap. I found that a lot of puppies play past the point of exhaustion, and that's when it gets hairy. Letting them take a nice nap in the crate is not punishment - it's a place that says, "chill out, take a nap, relax".

And it gives the adult a break as well.

Still, the blood draw is what worries me. If that is happening you must stop it; someone has to teach that puppy some bite inhibition before those teeth can do more damage.


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## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

Explain to me how to do some "Bite inhibition". Right now they are playing in the kitchen, gretta is muzzled and still pestering georgi, who is playing with her, growling at her while putting her on her back and making gretta submit - something that doesn't happen often outside. PS - she takes naps in the crate, plays/runs outside - chasing balls and frizbies(sp), goes to puppy class every friday, everything that I can think of to get the activity out of her; she does sit and down and stay and leave it. She is "fresh". I think if she were a child, she would be classified as overactive.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

If she's biting so hard that she's causing your adult dog discomfort and/or drawing blood, then give her a time out.

And make sure she gets into a puppy classes so that she can interact with other dogs that'll yelp when she's too rough. But uh, warn the instructor first. =)

That's how I'd start, I think, in your situation.


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## jackie ramsey (Mar 21, 2010)

She is in a puppy class, but there is no puppy interaction/playing together.


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## Namrah (Jul 15, 2008)

Really? At least half of the point of puppy classes is socialization. 

A lot of areas have some sort of "puppy playtimes" that you can go to. Or perhaps you can find another class that does offer some interaction?


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