# Foods & Brands to Avoid List: Part #1



## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Each weekend I will presenting a brand or formula to avoid. The first to make the list is one that claims to cure or prevent cancer. Companies are free to market foods and be creative, but even suggesting that a food has some efficacy in preventing cancer is not only illegal but completely immoral.

So the Part #1 food to avoid is *Canine Caviar*. Dubious claims, absurd prices and if I wanted a food based on cheap yeast protein I would culture my own.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Are you going to give actual explanations about ingredients you think are bad and what exactly constitutes "dubious claims"? Otherwise you're just another internet wacko spouting opinions .


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Not that I'd ever buy Canine Caviar (super expensive in Southern Ontario) but can you elaborate since you made a whole thread about it?

To a new or average dog owner, these look like good ingredients:


> Chicken & Pearl Millet ALS
> Dehydrated Chicken, Pearl Millet, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), Sun Cured Alfalfa, Whole Ground Linseed, Aspergillus Niger Fermentation Culture, Aspergillus Oryzae Fermentation Culture, Lactobacillus Acidophilus Fermentation Culture, Sun-Cured Kelp, FOS (prebiotic), Sodium Chloride, Lecithin, ChCholine Chloride, Parsley, Fenugreek, Peppermint, Taurine, Selenium, Whole Clove Garlic, Vitamin E, Zinc Proteinate, Vitamin C, Papaya, Rose Hips, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Niacin, Beta-Carotene, Manganese Proteinate, Vitamin D3, Biotin, Vitamin A, Riboflavin, Vitamin B12, Potassium Proteinate, Folic Acid.





> Crude Protein	27.0% min.
> Crude Fat	16.0% min.
> Crude Fiber	4.2% max.
> Moisture	8.0% max.
> ...


To me, this food seems not great but not bad for its price (on Chewy.com) $55 for 27lb. 

Please elaborate.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Bumper1 - I personally believe you have some valuable information and quite a bit of information that you are unable to provide exact documentation and proof for. 

To me, personally, because you are choosing to avoid every question I've asked of you in regards to providing information about what you feed your own dogs, show us pictures of your dogs, and provide proof that you're a k-9 nutritionalist - to me, you're just another person, like me, who has done years and years of researching. 

I have no doubt that you have knowledge of many of the dog food companies; that said, not every one persons dog is going to do good on Dr Tims or Annemet. 

I'm in agreement with you regarding yeast culture/protein; it's been a huge joke, imho, since the day many of these companies have started with it.

And I'm in agreement with you giving opinions; but as Willowy stated above, unless you're going to provide actual documentation and information of where your sources stem from, to me you are just another very carrying owner trying to provide helpful *experience* to other animal owners. 

You remind me of one who boasts about rebuilding car engines and transmissions and stands tall and proud, but doesn't know where to find the transmission dipstick on an Isuzu Rodeo. Not referring to an oil dipstick, but a transmission dipstick - hundreds of mechanics fail to know that Isuzu's from 96-2002 do not have an actual transmission dipstick. Rather the fluid has to be checked with the engine running, lying on your back. 

Bumper1 - I'm not doubting you have very good knowledge, what I'm tired of, one can ask you numerous times to at least give us info of your own animals, what you feed, and what you've had *long-term* experience with - yet you refuse to level with the everyday crowd, boast yourself as if you're a k-9 nutritionalist and yet still claim that corn is a good source of protein.

You remind me of the numerous mechanics over the years, who've boasted about rebuilding their cars, only to see their car in worse shape then hundreds of cars on the street. 

You go from one extreme to another when you talk about corn not being a problem, then you rave about Annemet, it confuses people. 

I truly believe Annemeat to be a good food; and I personally believe corn to be a cheap filler, I'll never recommend someone to feed a food with corn if they don't wish too.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Woofie2 said:


> Bumper1 - I personally believe you have some valuable information and quite a bit of information that you are unable to provide exact documentation and proof for.
> 
> To me, personally, because you are choosing to avoid every question I've asked of you in regards to providing information about what you feed your own dogs, show us pictures of your dogs, and provide proof that you're a k-9 nutritionalist - to me, you're just another person, like me, who has done years and years of researching.
> 
> ...


But no, I don't think you understand. Bumper KNOWS whats best! 

We just don't have any evidence to back it up :/

(I also really would love love LOVE to see some evidence because some of the things Bumper says make sense... but there's never any citations behind it.)

Also- I really doubt every dog on earth is going to do well on five different brands (tims, annamet, proplan, tuffy, sportmix) which is why I hesitate to ever give YES THIS IS THE BEST FOOD.


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## PureMutt (Feb 6, 2009)

I would think a food like Gravy Train or Beneful would be your number one. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Next weekend will be Orijen and Acana


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Not that I'd ever buy Canine Caviar (super expensive in Southern Ontario) but can you elaborate since you made a whole thread about it?
> 
> To a new or average dog owner, these look like good ingredients:
> 
> ...


I'd never buy a food with chicken fat as the third ingredient and rose hips and such kind of make me scratch my head...


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Kayota said:


> I'd never buy a food with chicken fat as the third ingredient and rose hips and such kind of make me scratch my head...


 Eh, the ingredients before the fat are the main ingredients, so that just means that it has a lot of chicken meal and millet instead of mixing proteins and grains. That part doesn't bother me. But it does seem heavy on the fancy plants . And I'm not liking that much alfalfa because it's not a rabbit food .


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

You all must have issues reading. The reasons are stated. 

Canine Caviar says its foods will prevent cancer. Since we all know that canine cancer is largely a genetic and breed specific problem this is an outrageous and preditory statement. It is also illegal.

Apart from this claim, the foods are crap, with one not even being AAFCO compliant but stating it is. By the way, what is "selenium" anyway. Any reason why the proper name is not listed?

So, as I said the position is explained and it is quite simple and straightforward.

If you choose to turn a blind eye, well it is your choice.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

So I guess we can gather that Bumper has no dogs?


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> You all must have issues reading. .


No...we don't...but YOU do. Thread after thread, you insist on avoiding direct questions, asking for you to give us info as to who you are, what you feed and what breed your dogs are. 

So, why are we to have any trust in you?

Don't think anyone here feeds Canine Caviar; so no, I don't think anyone here has issues reading. 

We have no problems with you stating Canine Caviar has marketing gimmicks; all foods do. And any one adult over minor age should naturally be aware of the fact that nothing in this world prevents cancer - it IS just another gimmick food, agreed. 

But again, it's no different then Beneful showing commercials/claiming they use fresh cut meats. 

As I've mentioned before, ALL pet foods are considered from PET FEED quality; not one of them is going to contain the same nutrients as a human grade meal. That said, not everyone in this world has time or energy to feed raw or homecooked, and it must be balanced correctly for it to be beneficial anyways. 

I do agree with you however, CC has some stupid marketing crap and I wondered about their *selenium* source as well; and can you provide proof as to which one is NOT AAFCO compliant - if you're giving this information out, you need to complete the info by providing the name of the formula's in question.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Rescued said:


> So I guess we can gather that Bumper has no dogs?





Woofie2 said:


> Thread after thread, you insist on avoiding direct questions, asking for you to give us info as to who you are, what you feed and what breed your dogs are.


Goodness knows I'm not a fan of Bumper...BUT you guys should really take some time and do a search. Over the course of Bumper's 300+ posts he has indeed told us about his dogs, even posted a picture and revealed a little about his more than cursory involvement with the dog world. People can lie, of course, but if you take what he has said about himself at face value he is indeed more than "merely" a pet owner. Attacking personally is the sign of a weak argument, Bumper resorts to it often, but also spews out an awful lot of science. Science I don't personally often agree with, making dubious claims, cherry-picking statistics and twisting analysis. The thing is he has provided a lot more scientific reasoning for his opinions than most people posting here do when they provide theirs.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Emmett said:


> Goodness knows I'm not a fan of Bumper...BUT you guys should really take some time and do a search. Over the course of Bumper's 300+ posts he has indeed told us about his dogs, even posted a picture and revealed a little about his more than cursory involvement with the dog world. People can lie, of course, but if you take what he has said about himself at face value he is indeed more than "merely" a pet owner. Attacking personally is the sign of a weak argument, Bumper resorts to it often, but also spews out an awful lot of science. Science I don't personally often agree with, making dubious claims, cherry-picking statistics and twisting analysis. The thing is he has provided a lot more scientific reasoning for his opinions than most people posting here do when they provide theirs.


I'll have to stalk better. What kinds of dogs/ titles does he have? This is genuine curiosity, I don't remember ever seeing a post with pictures or telling what type of dogs he has.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Emmett said:


> Goodness knows I'm not a fan of Bumper...BUT you guys should really take some time and do a search. Over the course of Bumper's 300+ posts he has indeed told us about his dogs, even posted a picture and revealed a little about his more than cursory involvement with the dog world. People can lie, of course, but if you take what he has said about himself at face value he is indeed more than "merely" a pet owner. Attacking personally is the sign of a weak argument, Bumper resorts to it often, but also spews out an awful lot of science. Science I don't personally often agree with, making dubious claims, cherry-picking statistics and twisting analysis. The thing is he has provided a lot more scientific reasoning for his opinions than most people posting here do when they provide theirs.


I have no problems with Bumper1 - and I'm a newbie to this forum, so no I haven't seen where he has posted info on his dogs. He was a member on another board that I've been a long time member of, and he was banned for his personal attacks on people.

My question to him and it has yet to be answered, time and time again, however, is he can trash Orijen/Acana but yet can not provide documentation/proof of where he gets this information, and yet touts foods with corn being of beneficial to the overall health - this is where I have an issue. 

Personally, I have no trust in any one dog food company, to me, I'm in agreement with Bumper, NONE of them can be trusted to not twist marketing in a way people believe in it; and people do. 

I've always told people that all pet foods are of PET FEED quality; not one of them uses human grade quality meat sources, though they'll have you believe they do. 

My only complaint with Bumper is to *finish* providing the info he states with information as to where he gets this information - we should ALL have a right to be informed.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> I've always told people that all pet foods are of PET FEED quality; not one of them uses human grade quality meat sources, though they'll have you believe they do.


my understanding of this is that ALL meat becomes "pet food grade" the moment it enters a pet food manufacturer, so if you take 100lbs of fresh human grade meat from the local butcher shop, its human grade until it enters the pet food plant in which it instantly becomes pet food grade, so ya technically no pet food company uses human grade meat, but that's based entirely on a technicality, with no basis whatsoever on reality.


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## asuna (Sep 26, 2013)

ol' roy ??

anyone? im sure we call agree on that one!


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Just out of curiosity I went over Bumpers threads. Emmett, where did you see where he said anything about his dogs? All I can see is thread after thread about why certain foods are good or bad.

I don't personally care what he thinks about different foods as I will feed what works for me and my dogs anyway. Selenium is a mineral that I know more about in horses than dogs and if horses are needing it or they can have muscle problems. (tying up is what it is called in horses). Certain areas are deficient in it so horses need to have it supplemented.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Rescued said:


> I'll have to stalk better. What kinds of dogs/ titles does he have? This is genuine curiosity, I don't remember ever seeing a post with pictures or telling what type of dogs he has.





Kyllobernese said:


> Just out of curiosity I went over Bumpers threads. Emmett, where did you see where he said anything about his dogs?


Bumper talks exhaustively about hunting dogs and their nutrition. During the course of his "hunting dog nutrition rants" he/she has talked about trials and their experience with trial dogs. Bumper also posted a picture a while back of a GSP. I will not go on record saying that he unequivocally said this was his dog (because truthfully I cannot recall the exact wording), BUT in these discussions the implication was that this was his dog that had been fed (I believe it was ProPlan of some sort) since puppyhood. If I recall correctly, it was posted as a "look what great conditioning and fitness you get on ProPlan" in response to other member saying ProPlan is inadequate nutrition for working-type dogs. Personally, I remain skeptical of most information posted by Bumper, then again I also am skeptical of many claims posted by anybody on the Internet...for instance there are a fair number of incongruous posts by some longstanding members here. The nature of the beast, I suppose.



Woofie2 said:


> I have no problems with Bumper1 - and I'm a newbie to this forum, so no I haven't seen where he has posted info on his dogs. He was a member on another board that I've been a long time member of, and he was banned for his personal attacks on people.
> 
> My question to him and it has yet to be answered, time and time again, however, is he can trash Orijen/Acana but yet can not provide documentation/proof of where he gets this information, and yet touts foods with corn being of beneficial to the overall health - this is where I have an issue.
> 
> ...


This is a perfectly reasonable complaint to raise about Bumper, for months tons of members here have been raising those exact questions about his or her claims and facts. The thing is, though, you brought personal issues into it by implying that he _needs_ to somehow verify his legitimacy by providing proof, or even just telling us, about his dogs and his personal information. Asking for his sources, especially given his obvious personal bias and questionable assertions, is exactly what a reasonable person should do. Implying that because he has never explicitly stated anything about his personal dogs or life means he has no basis to form an opinion or share information about dog nutrition is just not right. We have a few pretty respected members of this community who don't own dogs and they are often providing information, sharing opinions and giving advice. 

Unscientifically, Bumper responds to roughly 25% of requests for information with sources/info. Most of the time the info/sources he provides don't lend as much credence to his claims as he thinks OR have methodological concerns. Rarely, if ever, does he respond when you point this out. More often than not, Bumper responses involve denigrating the intelligence of the poster asking the questions...or of the board as a whole. Which is precisely why most of us who actively sparred with Bumper when he first arrived, guns ablazin', have simply stopped engaging with him, some provide rebuttal information and sources just so there is a counter argument to his claims.

Food for thought across the board, perhaps Bumper is wary of providing too much personal information because he is famous/infamous...you know easily identifiable on the Internet? I am very guarded with how much personal info I post here because, frankly, it would not be hard for people to look me up. I'm far from famous, or even infamous, BUT there is also tons of information about me floating around out there and, frankly, I value my privacy and the anonymity of being just somebody else on the forum. I don't worry about forum members per se, but this is a public forum that receives thousands of visitors on a daily basis...there is a lot of potential to connect my private life with my public life and so I am extra careful.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Emmett said:


> BUT there is also tons of information about me floating around out there and, frankly, I value my privacy and the anonymity of being just somebody else on the forum. I don't worry about forum members per se, but this is a public forum that receives thousands of visitors on a daily basis...there is a lot of potential to connect my private life with my public life and so I am extra careful.


This I agree with; however, just by registering as a member here puts *anyone* at risk for loss of privacy.

I'm no more forthcoming on my private information then anyone else; simply stating what breed of dog I own does not disclose who I am.

For years I refused to even be on the internet in any way or fashion, because just being connected to the world-wide web puts one at risk, and joining individual forums puts that persons computer *on-line*, irregardless whether or not that person is registering with his/her name, it still has the IP address to disclose who one is if someone is looking hard enough. 

Facebook is bad for this; it actually discloses where your last post was - and that's extremely scary. 

I have family members who've never accessed the internet in any fashion; even their personal names, addresses are still accessible - it is a very scary world today; I do agree. 

Best possible theory to hide your security however is to NOT be a member of a forum - it IS better to be an outsider looking in, then it is to actually be registered.....Least that's what I've been told by a brother-in-law who works in the computer industry.


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## briteday (Feb 10, 2007)

Bumper1 said:


> By the way, what is "selenium" anyway.



Role of selenium in dogs: Research studies to date have indicated that selenium does have beneficial physiological effects on mammals. For example, it is known that selenium, when ingested, reduces the rate of oxidative damage caused by chemicals, by entering the membranes of the body's cells and protecting the contents of the cells from reacting with oxygen in a manner that damages the cells. Selenium deficiency may be associated with a myopathy in dogs (Manketlow, 1963). The diet of these dogs was principally mutton from an area of New Zealand where selenium-responsive diseases of sheep were noted. A fatal, myocardial necrosis was seen in young pups and a skeletal myodegeneration in an adult dog. Two bitches that had lost litters during previous perinatal periods were dosed with selenium during pregnancy and subsequently whelped normal litters.

Synergistic effect of selenium with vitamin E was observed when administered together to Beagles. It was demonstrated that Beagles which were initially 5 to 8 weeks old, developed clinical signs of vitamin E-selenium deficiency after 40 to 60 days of consuming an unsupplemented semisynthetic diet (Van Vleet, 1975). Generalized muscular weakness progressed from unsteadiness to prostration and coma. In a case study it was observed that multiple severe deaths due to acute myocardial degeneration occurred in a commercial kennel. Further losses were prevented when vitamin E and selenium supplementation was instituted (Green and Lemckert, 1977).

Selenium has been found to reduce incidences of cancer in both dogs and human. Selenium supplementation has shown to decrease DNA damage and increase epithelial cell apoptosis within the aging canine prostate (Waters et al., 2003). Research suggests that selenium also helps with improving long-term joint health and can reduce risks of Kashin-Beck disease (Sudre and Mathieu, 2001; Levander and Beck, 1997; Beck et al., 2003) which involves the articular cartilage between joints degenerating, thyroid disease and cancers. Selenium is also thought to help prevent hip dysplasia (Hamilton, 1999).

Selenium can increase the health of the skin, potentially reducing dandruff and dry skin. It plays an important role in hair growth. Selenium can also improve the hair coat quality, making it more soft and shiny. As a result of a healthier coat, there is also the possibility of less shedding and hair loss. In a study conducted by Yu et al. (2006) it was demonstrated that both low and high selenium in diet reduced hair growth in adult dogs.

Pet animals obtain dietary selenium from cereals and grains, or from the tissues of other animals, depending on dietary habit. The forms of dietary selenium from both plant and animal sources include a range of inorganic and organic selenium compounds (Whanger, 2002). The primary form of selenium in plants is selenomethionine, together with smaller amounts of selenocysteine and selenite. The forms of selenium found in animals include selenoproteins (formed from biologically active selenocysteine, e.g., glutathione peroxidase, selenoprotein P), Se-containing proteins (formed from non-specific incorporation of selenomethionine or selenocysteine) as well as nonprotein and inorganic selenium (selenite, selenate) and methylated selenium (forms that are excreted) (Lobinski et al., 2000).

Here's my information. If you want to read the entire article...

http://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ajas.2011.64.70&org=12

And it includes all of the sources :wave:


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Woofie2 said:


> This I agree with; however, just by registering as a member here puts *anyone* at risk for loss of privacy.
> 
> I'm no more forthcoming on my private information then anyone else; simply stating what breed of dog I own does not disclose who I am.
> 
> ...


Not exactly what I was getting at, sorry for not being more clear. There are weirdos out there, not weirdos who necessarily go looking for info on a person, but if they do happen upon info things can get creepy. If someone is determined to stalk, there is really not much you can do about it...they'll dig and find whatever information they want even on the most paranoid/cautious person. I'm just referring to casual weirdos who might run across imprudently shared personal info. I do not want acquaintances in my professional life asking me about my hobbies and what I do in my spare time. Worse yet, I do not want random strangers (who one might call "admirers") finding out where I go hiking with my dogs. Knowing this about me might create a false sense of intimacy with people who already feel connected with my public profile.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

The only place I see this thread going to is on the 'lockdown'

If I was to own a dog food company, the first person I would hire is a creative writer. This creative writer would do my food labels and my commercials. I say this because time after time, I see less quality food outselling the better foods.
I hardly think a dog food company is designed to look like a home kitchen and whole chickens are being rinsed under the sink. Also, I do not think a dog is thinking that by finding a ball out in the middle of a field is why he gets a certain food. I will add that many owners do not even bother to read the label, just look at the pictures on it in thinking they are buying a good dog food. Prices are a big factor too. People are on a budget and this is one place people will cut back on first. 

Dogs can survive on just about any food thrown to them. Look at third world countries, and the canines that live there. Most do not have a bowl of food, let alone the owners do not buy dog food. The dogs eat whatever they find and survive, even reproduce. Disease and parasites are the biggest killer of those dogs and not the food. Many American dogs are living off of Ol' Roy and do ok. The top selling dog foods are there because of marketing ploy and not because they are top quality foods. http://www.dog-nutrition-advice.com/best-selling-dog-foods.html

Do I agree with Bumper1? To some extent on that what I think he saying that it is wrong for foods to advertise about curing a disease and not be FDA approved. The rest of the post mumble jumble again.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I will add that overdose of Selenium can kill animals too. This is what caused all the polo ponies death. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=7453540&page=1 Unless you know that there is a deficiency, I would be careful about this mineral.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Dogs can survive on just about any food thrown to them. Look at third world countries, and the canines that live there. Most do not have a bowl of food, let alone the owners do not buy dog food. The dogs eat whatever they find and survive, even reproduce.


I agree....as a kid, our dogs were not raised on dog foods; they got what was left from the table. Every one of those dogs were very healthy, lived to be in their early 20's. 

The 2 dogs I have now; one has a diet of 85% fresh homecooked beef and vegetables or rabbits that he finds in the field; the remaining 15% is dry food. Our other pup is 90% dry food only cause she's in the prime of her growth - but will eventually be on *table scraps*, healthy ones however.

My definition of scraps - organ meats left from the cattle, fish from our fishing trips, vegetables from our garden, beef, turkey, etc. they get a huge variety. No garbage food. 

G-ma hated anything to do with *packaged* dog food and always thought it was a luxury rather then a necessity.


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## KuroSaya (Jun 3, 2011)

"How do you figure low value? Kibble with 30% protein has twice the amount protein per gram as raw beef. "

This person thanks kibble is higher value than raw since it has higher protein %.. lol

"I use Royal Canin Labrador Kibble as training treats and have never noticed any difference 
in motivation. You should never vary treats with dogs while training....never ever ever. 
You are just teaching an undesirable behavior. The last thing I want is a dog deciding to 
obey because of the reward. "

apparently Bumper1 is a dog trainer and thinks he/she can advise people on how to reward their dog. haha



> HollowHeaven View Post
> Most dogs don't think of kibble as a treat.
> And... I don't see how dried up chunks of blah could have more protein than raw meat. Lol.
> 
> ...


Yes kibble can have more protein than raw or whatever depends on the kibble. Still Saya and Bella finds cooked or dehydrated fish, beef, organs or dog treats I make myself with meat, fruit and canned fish much more yummy than kibble.

I give various kinds of kibble as treats I rotate the brand and formula once I use up the small bag. 

Rewards for a dog can be many things from kibble, cooked meat, or toys or play time etc. 

Bella finds running and playing a big reward so I use off leash play as a reward too.

Saya my shiba does well off leash and she isn't a breed known for that. So I must be doing something right?

I wouldn't call royal canin good kibble. they are full of marketing ploys with breed specific kibbles.. boxer, gsd and lab? 

Not all raw feeders are cultist or snoby. I don't make people who feed kibble feel bad. I've had issue with a kibble feeder being rude to me actually on FB! Coarse they feed eukanuba kibble.. 

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/eukanuba-dog-food-customized-nutrition/

There are some pre made raw companies I'm not fond of their ingredients as some of it seems sketchy or they get meat like rabbit from China.. 

Saying we can't read is rude I mean come on if your going to do a weekly kibble review than make it bulky with information yes we can do our own homework and look why you don't like it, but it would be nice for the poster to provide their reasons of not liking kibble like honest kitchen or canine caviar.. 

Why promote kibble like proplan..

http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/dog-food-reviews/purina-pro-plan-dog-food-dry/

Ingredients: Chicken, brewers rice, whole grain wheat, *corn gluten meal*, *whole grain corn*, *poultry by-product mea*l (natural source of glucosamine), *animal fat preserved* with mixed-tocopherols (form of vitamin E), barley, *corn germ meal*, *fish meal *(natural source of glucosamine),* animal digest*, fish oil, wheat bran, dried egg product, calcium phosphate, salt, potassium chloride, potassium citrate, vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, l-lysine monohydrochloride, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), manganese sulfate, niacin, vitamin A supplement, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, *menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity*), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite

What kind of by products? Is is gizzards, intestines, feathers, feet, beaks, heads? what? I feed raw and do feed things like beef tongue, heart, liver, pancreas, thymus, pig head, chicken feet, beef tendons, beef trachea, beef lungs, but I know what animal the stuff came from. 

Animal digest from what animal? Animal fat? What animal is it? Corn germ meal, corn gluten meal, Menadoine stuff.. 

From what I've read menadoine isn't good.. I mean if corn is so good then just put actual corn in it not the by product of corn.

I feed stuff like oats and rice to my dogs before no issue, but it's actual rice not by products of it. Saya loves cooked buckwheat she goes nuts for it with some apples in it. 

Coarse my dogs aren't sensitive to grains, but some are and some are sensitive to potatoes too. Coarse many kibble have so many ingredients it can be hard to pinpoint the sensitivity issue. 

I had nothing, but bad experiences with low end kibble like beneful and pedigree. beneful especially I noticed Dink acting tired and slow thought it was due to old age, but once switched to wellness core she did much better got active and actually wanted to go for walk and explored the woods.


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

luv mi pets said:


> Do I agree with Bumper1? To some extent on that what I think he saying that it is wrong for foods to advertise about curing a disease and not be FDA approved. The rest of the post mumble jumble again.


But I think if your problem with a food is that it is claiming that it prevents/cures cancer, you shouldn't be blathering about it online discussion forum, you should be sending an email to the FTC, because that's illegal, at least in human products. I'd suspect animal as well. (Though I'd note I don't see that claim on the product's website, either on the front page or About section.)



luv mi pets said:


> I will add that overdose of Selenium can kill animals too. This is what caused all the polo ponies death. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=7453540&page=1 Unless you know that there is a deficiency, I would be careful about this mineral.


Selenium supplementation is very common in horses, because if you live somewhere like I do that's had hay growing in the same fields for a few hundred years, and animals grazing pasture areas just as long, you're going to end up needing to supplements minerals, as they're often depleted from the soil. Most people just feed a multivitamin, and selenium is found in human multivitamins as well. Now, OT, I don't doubt those poorly formulated injections killed those ponies, but given the recent spate of horses dropping (if not dying) from Mg, I'd be more curious about that element of it in retrospect. 

As to Bumper's question of what "selenium" is or its "real" name, I'm confused by why anyone with any scientific training or knowledge (especially the kind that he/she seems to imply pretty regularly) would ask that. Selenium is an element. It doesn't get any more basic or simply named than that.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

briteday said:


> Role of selenium in dogs: Research studies to date have indicated that selenium does have beneficial physiological effects on mammals. For example, it is known that selenium, when ingested, reduces the rate of oxidative damage caused by chemicals, by entering the membranes of the body's cells and protecting the contents of the cells from reacting with oxygen in a manner that damages the cells. Selenium deficiency may be associated with a myopathy in dogs (Manketlow, 1963). The diet of these dogs was principally mutton from an area of New Zealand where selenium-responsive diseases of sheep were noted. A fatal, myocardial necrosis was seen in young pups and a skeletal myodegeneration in an adult dog. Two bitches that had lost litters during previous perinatal periods were dosed with selenium during pregnancy and subsequently whelped normal litters.
> 
> Synergistic effect of selenium with vitamin E was observed when administered together to Beagles. It was demonstrated that Beagles which were initially 5 to 8 weeks old, developed clinical signs of vitamin E-selenium deficiency after 40 to 60 days of consuming an unsupplemented semisynthetic diet (Van Vleet, 1975). Generalized muscular weakness progressed from unsteadiness to prostration and coma. In a case study it was observed that multiple severe deaths due to acute myocardial degeneration occurred in a commercial kennel. Further losses were prevented when vitamin E and selenium supplementation was instituted (Green and Lemckert, 1977).
> 
> ...


I know what Selenium is and what it does. It is not labelled correctly. It is probably Sodium Selenite but CC doesn't want to say it. It is labelled incorrectly.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

DaisyDC said:


> But I think if your problem with a food is that it is claiming that it prevents/cures cancer, you shouldn't be blathering about it online discussion forum, you should be sending an email to the FTC, because that's illegal, at least in human products. I'd suspect animal as well. (Though I'd note I don't see that claim on the product's website, either on the front page or About section.)
> 
> Selenium supplementation is very common in horses, because if you live somewhere like I do that's had hay growing in the same fields for a few hundred years, and animals grazing pasture areas just as long, you're going to end up needing to supplements minerals, as they're often depleted from the soil. Most people just feed a multivitamin, and selenium is found in human multivitamins as well. Now, OT, I don't doubt those poorly formulated injections killed those ponies, but given the recent spate of horses dropping (if not dying) from Mg, I'd be more curious about that element of it in retrospect.
> 
> As to Bumper's question of what "selenium" is or its "real" name, I'm confused by why anyone with any scientific training or knowledge (especially the kind that he/she seems to imply pretty regularly) would ask that. Selenium is an element. It doesn't get any more basic or simply named than that.


I am questioning the labelling. It is not proper labelling and my point is that he is doing that for a reason. There is nothing wrong with sodium selenite but for some reason CC doesn't want to say it. Only two forms of selenium are approved, sodium selenite and selenium yeast. I suspect he is using sodium selenite but thinks it will harm his marketing.

It is pretty clear this company doesn't have the consumer's interest at heart. No diet has any effect on preventing cancer. That should be enough to reason to question everything about the company. The fish grain-free's minimum phosphorous is higher than the allowable maxmium. How in the world are these foods even registered in some states?


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

Sadly what I find in the people posting here, are people that get suckered by marketing and really have very little experience with dogs.


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## Woofie2 (Oct 5, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> Sadly what I find in the people posting here, are people that get suckered by marketing and really have very little experience with dogs.


No....don't think we're suckered into marketing, not many of us here feed Beneful. But I can tell you thousands of owners do because of Purina's marketing of fresh cut meats in their commercials. 

Bumper - ALL dog foods are marketing ploys; truth be told, people don't even need to feed dog foods - thus anyone purchasing dog food of any brand is buying into the marketing ploy. 

All pre-packaged products, whether for human or animal is of marketed material. Dogs survived and still survive on ranches across the country without dry food products and do just fine.

I believe you have *dog food* knowledge, but I don't believe you have personal one on one experience with numerous breed types or requirements.


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> I am questioning the labelling. It is not proper labelling and my point is that he is doing that for a reason. There is nothing wrong with sodium selenite but for some reason CC doesn't want to say it. Only two forms of selenium are approved, sodium selenite and selenium yeast. I suspect he is using sodium selenite but thinks it will harm his marketing.
> 
> It is pretty clear this company doesn't have the consumer's interest at heart. No diet has any effect on preventing cancer. That should be enough to reason to question everything about the company. The fish grain-free's minimum phosphorous is higher than the allowable maxmium. How in the world are these foods even registered in some states?


Then why not state that your problem is with inaccurate labelling to begin with, rather than seeming to be questioning what a basic element is, or what its purpose might be, when it's a common enough vitamin supplement across species? This is the type of thing that drives people bonkers when they read your postings.

If you've got a problem with the company's claims, that's fine. I don't see anywhere on their website that they're making the claim you're saying they're making, just that they support a cancer research fund, which is fine by me. If you do have specific examples of them making a claim to be a "cancer preventing food" take it to the Federal Trade Commission, because it's illegal to make those claims, and I'd certainly support reporting something like that. I'm certainly not being "suckered" by any marketing, because before this afternoon, I'd not even been to their website, as I don't believe it's a brand even carried around here, and I have no interest in feeding it to my dog. But I also don't see that the marketing I DO see on their website is any worse than what I see for something like Beneful in commercials, or those for Blue Buffalo. As Woofie2 says, everything packaged is marketing, dog food, people food, cars, the shoes on my feet.


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## Bumper1 (Jul 14, 2013)

DaisyDC said:


> Then why not state that your problem is with inaccurate labelling to begin with, rather than seeming to be questioning what a basic element is, or what its purpose might be, when it's a common enough vitamin supplement across species? This is the type of thing that drives people bonkers when they read your postings.
> 
> If you've got a problem with the company's claims, that's fine. I don't see anywhere on their website that they're making the claim you're saying they're making, just that they support a cancer research fund, which is fine by me. If you do have specific examples of them making a claim to be a "cancer preventing food" take it to the Federal Trade Commission, because it's illegal to make those claims, and I'd certainly support reporting something like that. I'm certainly not being "suckered" by any marketing, because before this afternoon, I'd not even been to their website, as I don't believe it's a brand even carried around here, and I have no interest in feeding it to my dog. But I also don't see that the marketing I DO see on their website is any worse than what I see for something like Beneful in commercials, or those for Blue Buffalo. As Woofie2 says, everything packaged is marketing, dog food, people food, cars, the shoes on my feet.


You must be mentally impaired if you think the silly marketing that Beneful and Blue Buffalo does is anywhere near what Canine Caviar claims. Do you know how predatory and unethical and immoral it is to claim that a food prevents or cures cancer?

Have you ever had a dog with cancer? Do you know what people go through with a dog with cancer? 

You think Beneful saying it has good ingredients on TV is the same as preying on pet owners with a bogus cancer claim and charging $80 a bag?

Are you nuts or something?


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## Jacksons Mom (Mar 12, 2010)

Bumper1 said:


> You must be mentally impaired if you think the silly marketing that Beneful and Blue Buffalo does is anywhere near what Canine Caviar claims. Do you know how predatory and unethical and immoral it is to claim that a food prevents or cures cancer?
> 
> Have you ever had a dog with cancer? Do you know what people go through with a dog with cancer?
> 
> ...


I don't like CC at all, nor feed it, but I honestly don't see where they're claiming it CURES cancer. 

*



Canine Caviar is the first true holistic pet food and the Only grain-free and alkaline based pet food diet in America that is specifically designed to help reduce the risk of cancer and other health related conditions. It is not the cure but we provide the ingredients for a holistic and healthy life style pet plan.

Click to expand...

*


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

Bumper1 said:


> You think Beneful saying it has good ingredients on TV is the same as preying on pet owners with a bogus cancer claim and charging $80 a bag?


No, what I'm saying clearly, without namecalling or hystrionics, is that claiming a product cures cancer is illegal, and if they're doing so, it should be reported. If you can provide evidence of them making that claim, please do so, I drive past the FTC every day and would be happy to stop by and chat with them about it. But you are making the claim that it is their marketing gimimck; if it is, its a poorly executed one, because no where on their website do I see that claim being made.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

DaisyDC said:


> No, what I'm saying clearly, without namecalling or hystrionics, is that claiming a product cures cancer is illegal, and if they're doing so, it should be reported. If you can provide evidence of them making that claim, please do so, I drive past the FTC every day and would be happy to stop by and chat with them about it. But you are making the claim that it is their marketing gimimck; if it is, its a poorly executed one, because no where on their website do I see that claim being made.


With the quote that Jackson's Mom posted, they appear to be claiming the opposite (emphasis mine):



> *It is not the cure* but we provide the ingredients for a holistic and healthy life style pet plan.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

http://www.petfoodindustry.com/Default.aspx?pageid=5307&id=6867&terms=pet+foods
"At the Expo, Canine Caviar will speak to industry professionals about pet nutrition and cancer awareness. The company is the only one to carry an alkaline-based pet formula line designed to help prevent cancer, according to Canine Caviar.

“Studies have shown that eating foods that make the body’s pH more alkaline decreases the chance of cancer cells developing and growing and the same is true in dogs,” said Jeff Baker, owner and founder of Canine Caviar. “The pet industry has a responsibility to continue this dialogue with the public and to take preventative measures with proper nutrition.” "

Perhaps this is what Bumper1 meant to post about CC and cancer. Not sure why we get to do his/her work for him/her. CC is hoping an alkaline diet helps prevent cancer, not cure it.

February 2013 
"We formulate for health concerns like diabetes, cancer, kidney, liver and heart disease. ... Canine Caviar uses hormone, pesticide and antibiotic-free Chicken, Lamb, ... alkaline diet has any scientifically proven ability to prevent or affect cancer."
http://www.caninecaviar.com/why-canine-caviar/

And as recently as last week a c/p from google that is no longer up when you click the link.
Canine Caviar
www.caninecaviar.com/‎
Nov 23, 2013 - Canine Caviar has always provided the freshest of food by producing more ... that an alkaline diet has any scientifically proven ability to prevent or affect cancer.

The GSD photo posted by Bumper1 was not his/her dog. Why I believe posters here when they tell us what the diet of the dogs under their care is but a third party statement is suspect I don't know but that is the way it works. That dog was supposed to eat only whatever kibble but unless we ask perhaps the kibble was supplemented with fresh or canned or even raw. I know mushers feed kibble from necessity but raw is preferred and the few kibbles Bumper1 tells us are best are fed by winning teams but that is certainly not all the dogs eat and plenty of races are won by teams eating other types of feed.

Have to agree, the exact selenium compound used should be disclosed but chemical names scare most consumers. Just show somebody an analysis of the tap water they have and watch. Arsenic! Lead! Uranium! Listed on the report, none found and still panic.


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

Kathyy said:


> Perhaps this is what Bumper1 meant to post about CC and cancer. Not sure why we get to do his/her work for him/her. CC is hoping an alkaline diet helps prevent cancer, not cure it.


Yes, why should he/she bother to do the research or provide evidence to support their libelous claims that a product is using an illegal marketing strategy? There are a lot of legitimate reasons to have a gripe with the product, including thinking the research behind their claims is bunk. But saying they're doing something which is illegal is NOT the same thing as saying they are making an inferior product.


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## TinyTails (May 16, 2011)

I feed Canine Caviar Open Sky and Deuce does great on it. We have tried a lot of foods and keep coming back to CC. My mom feeds the Lamb and Millet to her Shepherd and he also does great on it. Deuce eats THK for dinner and although he's done great on the CC it seems like noone seems to think it's a good food  I'm starting to question if I should just give up on dry and stick to only THK.


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