# Going nuts with Kikopup



## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

I should have asked this a long time ago and stopped myself from going crazy, but I kept thinking it would sort itself out, and it hasn't. 

Basically, the Kikopup method for stay is that all poses (sit, down, stand) also mean stay and that you always have to release your dog. Well the issue is that I did "7 days to a perfect puppy" method which taught a default sit when Perrin was only 8 weeks old, so she always breaks her poses to sit. I have been trying for months and I can't get her to stay in a stand or down at all! 

Should I give up on the kikopup method and just do "sit stay" instead of "sit"? how did you all teach stays?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I wouldn't stress about it and do whatever works for you and your pup, unless you have aspirations of higher level obedience and whatnot.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

ireth0 said:


> I wouldn't stress about it and do whatever works for you and your pup, unless you have aspirations of higher level obedience and whatnot.


This^^^

I taught my dog "stay" as a separate cue partly because I had no idea what I was doing (and it wasn't taught as a "sit until released" in our puppy class) and partly because I was lazy and in most instances I don't care if she actually holds the sit.

You'll find that most trainers have their own style, methods, and cues. Find what works for you and your dog and go with it. Training should be fun, not frustrating.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I use "Stay" for sit and down where I do not want the dogs to come at me on command. With a stay, I always come back to the dog and release them with both a hand touch on their shoulder and a verbal "Okay." I use "Wait" for a temporary stay where I will be calling the dog to me or they will be moving again soon after the command....like going through a door. 

I think this is one of the bigger issues I have of people using videos on You Tube alone for training their dogs...confusion or expecting too much from the dog too soon. When training dogs and especially if someone is new to training dogs, having someone watch what you are doing with your training will help things become much more black and white for the owner. There are so many things we do or don't that will screw our dogs up in the learning phase...bad reward placement, unclear commands/cues, bad reward timing. So many times I see in the classes I teach that people are the reason their dogs can't do a command correctly...and then they get frustrated with the dog. I strongly recommend getting a puppy or dog into training classes so someone can see what you're doing and not doing. 

I go to drop in run thru classes all the time with my dogs...so I can have someone watch me and what I'm doing as a handler so I can improve my part of the team. Even though most people don't do obedience for competition, having a trainer watch your interactions with you dog while training can really help move through issues you might be having.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I don't force my dogs to stay in a sit for an extended period of time because I feel it is uncomfortable for them. Maybe I am too soft on them or maybe it is because I am used to Freyja who always "slips" into a down. I did the Kikopup method of "stay" where they hold each pose until you release but wound up only teaching the down that way because Freyja would not hold her sit, she drops every time, usually in under 10 seconds. I decided I didn't care enough to fight with her, what was the point of us both being frustrated? I have my dogs "wait" in sit just a little looser and less formal than the stay. Ultimately whatever works best for you and your pup is fine unless you are needing something very specific.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Remaru said:


> I don't force my dogs to stay in a sit for an extended period of time because I feel it is uncomfortable for them. Maybe I am too soft on them or maybe it is because I am used to Freyja who always "slips" into a down. I did the Kikopup method of "stay" where they hold each pose until you release but wound up only teaching the down that way because Freyja would not hold her sit, she drops every time, usually in under 10 seconds. I decided I didn't care enough to fight with her, what was the point of us both being frustrated? I have my dogs "wait" in sit just a little looser and less formal than the stay. Ultimately whatever works best for you and your pup is fine unless you are needing something very specific.


So, your dog holds a sit stay for 10 seconds at that's it?? Yes, that is too soft on your dog...they are not holding a stay if they drop into a down. Lars happily did a 3 minute sit stay with me out of sight last night in class. I feel a dog should be able to hold a sit stay for a minute without breaking...that is the basic sit stay in novice obedience.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I agree that attending a class has great benefits, but I've been just as confused by different instructors as the OP is by books and videos. One instructor uses "touch" for a nose target, another uses "target." In other classes, some behaviors are put on stimulus control; in others, those same behaviors are taught as automatic behaviors. For more experienced dog people, those difference may seem insignificant, but for novices they can be confusing.



Remaru said:


> I don't force my dogs to stay in a sit for an extended period of time because I feel it is uncomfortable for them. Maybe I am too soft on them or maybe it is because I am used to Freyja who always "slips" into a down. I did the Kikopup method of "stay" where they hold each pose until you release but wound up only teaching the down that way because Freyja would not hold her sit, she drops every time, usually in under 10 seconds. I decided I didn't care enough to fight with her, what was the point of us both being frustrated? I have my dogs "wait" in sit just a little looser and less formal than the stay. Ultimately whatever works best for you and your pup is fine unless you are needing something very specific.


For some reason, Katie almost always slides on the mats at our training center. Oddly, she's fine on the hardwood floors at home, but the rubber mats make her slide into a down.


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## Godwit (Apr 7, 2014)

I taught stay as a separate command so that no matter what he's doing (sitting, standing, down) he won't move until released. I did this because he used to bolt to the door and sitting AT the door was too exciting for him. So stay as it's own command has been helpful for me. I started teaching while he was in sit because he's always happy to sit and as I extended the time away and he got better, I moved him on to down and stay and started over. With stand I basically just told him to stay when I knew he wouldn't be going anywhere, and gradually he learned that stay=don't move until I say okay. Now when he's doing something independently and I tell him to stay, he does it no problem


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Ocean will slide down from a sit into a down about 30 to 45 seconds into his minute sit/stay in class...it's because stays are last and he's probably tired. Too bad...I go in and place him back into a sit and remind him that stay means stay no matter how tired you are. 

Stay is a command that I am a stickler on because someday, you might really need your dog to stay put because something is unsafe. If stay means...eh, I don't think so because I don't have to and no one ever enforces my stay...you might have dog who enters that unsafe issue. I have used STAY!...if something glass breaks in the kitchen and there is shards of glass all over the floor and around where my dog is sitting. I can't pick up my 75 and 87 pound dogs...so a stay until I clean it up is not an option.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I am HUGE on stay. It's one of the most important (to me) commands I teach.

I do not give a crap what position they stay in. My dogs freeze in place in whatever position and all but Molly will hold it indefinitely, but I really fail to see a situation where a sit-stay is safe and a down-stay would be dangerous. You might not LIKE IT and that's fine. You may not accept it - also well and good. But I'd hazard that 99.99999% of the time safety relies on staying in place - not staying in position. A dog who slides down because it thinks down is the position to stay in (or defaults to sit when told to say) is not magically in enormous amounts of danger from not staying.

That said, if it bothers you or you want to go on to higher level obedience, the answer really is just putting them back into position. Nope them out (no reward marker), try again and make your criteria shorter and build slowly.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> I wouldn't stress about it and do whatever works for you and your pup, unless you have aspirations of higher level obedience and whatnot.


So are you staying that the stay in position default (as in "sit" means "sit stay") is necessary for higher level? I think I do want to do higher level obedience. She is a really smart dog and I have a background in animal behavior, so it is kindof an eventual hope. I just want to get the right foundation, and I'm not sure what is "the best way". Obviously I know there is no one best way, but I am pissed off I did default sit, because that is clearly not the best way for anything other than just a good dog who sits and doesn't do other commands.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

MrsBoats said:


> I use "Stay" for sit and down where I do not want the dogs to come at me on command. With a stay, I always come back to the dog and release them with both a hand touch on their shoulder and a verbal "Okay." I use "Wait" for a temporary stay where I will be calling the dog to me or they will be moving again soon after the command....like going through a door.
> 
> I think this is one of the bigger issues I have of people using videos on You Tube alone for training their dogs...confusion or expecting too much from the dog too soon. When training dogs and especially if someone is new to training dogs, having someone watch what you are doing with your training will help things become much more black and white for the owner. There are so many things we do or don't that will screw our dogs up in the learning phase...bad reward placement, unclear commands/cues, bad reward timing. So many times I see in the classes I teach that people are the reason their dogs can't do a command correctly...and then they get frustrated with the dog. I strongly recommend getting a puppy or dog into training classes so someone can see what you're doing and not doing.
> 
> I go to drop in run thru classes all the time with my dogs...so I can have someone watch me and what I'm doing as a handler so I can improve my part of the team. Even though most people don't do obedience for competition, having a trainer watch your interactions with you dog while training can really help move through issues you might be having.



I agree, I know that it is my problem, not my dog's problem. But part of the reason why it is my problem is that there are too many ways to train and I want to just stick with one thing. So I decided to stick with the Kikopup way, but that goes against what she learned at 8 weeks, which is "sit to say please."

I always have my boyfriend watch me train and even videotape it to make sure I am doing it right. I know I'm not perfect, but I don't think I need to go to a class. I can analyze my own behavior better one-on-one with a video. I have a degree in animal behavior so I know all about conditioning and cues. I know I don't always get my timing perfect, but I don't need to pay a trainer to tell me that. Unless it was Kikopup or Ian Dunbar or Karen Pryor or something like that, then I would obviously pay because they would have insight I don't. The trainers in my area are barely professionals.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Perrin said:


> So are you staying that the stay in position default (as in "sit" means "sit stay") is necessary for higher level? I think I do want to do higher level obedience. She is a really smart dog and I have a background in animal behavior, so it is kindof an eventual hope. I just want to get the right foundation, and I'm not sure what is "the best way". Obviously I know there is no one best way, but I am pissed off I did default sit, because that is clearly not the best way for anything other than just a good dog who sits and doesn't do other commands.


If you intend to compete, it might be good to find a trainer who competes in your selected sport so s/he will know the rules, expectations, and training foundations you'll need. I don't think you messed up, you may just need to adjust the way you teach various behaviors to account for previous learning.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

> A dog who slides down because it thinks down is the position to stay in (or defaults to sit when told to say) is not magically in enormous amounts of danger from not staying.


I think that could lead to grey areas in the dog's understanding of stay. Stay means you stay as you are...stand stay, sit stay, down stay. The dog needs to stay as I leave them...if the option is there to break the stay and move into a position that suits them better...your stay will start to erode across the stays (Sit, down, stand) Say the glass is right in front of the dog's feet in a sit or right underneath them if they are standing...they down and then they are in the middle of the glass. For me...when I tell a dog to stay, they must hold that position until I say other wise. If I wanted my dog into a down, I would put them into a down...they don't make that choice on their own.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

MrsBoats said:


> I think that could lead to grey areas in the dog's understanding of stay. Stay means you stay as you are...stand stay, sit stay, down stay. The dog needs to stay as I leave them...if the option is there to break the stay and move into a position that suits them better...your stay will start to erode across the stays (Sit, down, stand) Say the glass is right in front of the dog's feet in a sit or right underneath them if they are standing...they down and then they are in the middle of the glass. For me...when I tell a dog to stay, they must hold that position until I say other wise. If I wanted my dog into a down, I would put them into a down...they don't make that choice on their own.


I don't want her making the choice on her own. Last time I told her to stay in a stand, she sat...wait for it...and smeared green diarrhea all over the carpet!!! I was trying to clean her up, but she wanted to be good so she sat!

I really don't want her switching positions of her own volition. She is very comfortable in a sit, she sits for an hour straight to watch birds of her own choice, with no discomfort.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

How old is your dog now??


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

I am of the Train to the level that is comfortable for you, and works for you on a daily basis (unless you are going to do AKC obedience).
We do Sit stays, or Down stays. The standing STAY is not what we taught. The dogs have a WAIT command, which in our household, means stop in your tracks (usu this is on walks and they have gotten ahead of me and I can see something - like a bike heading towards us, which they will chase) so I shout WAIT and they wait for me to catch up to them. Its a handy command and I use it often. We have a big yard and I use it there too if I need them to stop in their tracks, and they usu throw in a "look at me" too which I like....


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

cookieface said:


> If you intend to compete, it might be good to find a trainer who competes in your selected sport so s/he will know the rules, expectations, and training foundations you'll need. I don't think you messed up, you may just need to adjust the way you teach various behaviors to account for previous learning.


Absolutely...if you want to compete, find a good trainer who has competed and has been successful at competing in that sport that interests you. You want to lay a foundation for competitive sports when a dog is young...because you don't want to have to make the dog unlearn something that will have to be rebuilt later for higher level obedience. Heeling to most dog people is a completely different animal to those who are doing higher level obedience.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Perrin said:


> So are you staying that the stay in position default (as in "sit" means "sit stay") is necessary for higher level? I think I do want to do higher level obedience. She is a really smart dog and I have a background in animal behavior, so it is kindof an eventual hope. I just want to get the right foundation, and I'm not sure what is "the best way". Obviously I know there is no one best way, but I am pissed off I did default sit, because that is clearly not the best way for anything other than just a good dog who sits and doesn't do other commands.


Basically what I meant was what others have said. For day-to-day utility of the command, I don't think it matters much if it's a sitting stay or a down stay or what have you, as long as the dog stays. 

If you wanted to compete in obedience, she may be required to specifically do a sit-stay vs a standing-stay vs a down-stay, so in that case you'd want to work on differentiating.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

Also my trainer taught our giant schnauzer that SIT means sit til you are released. And so does DOWN. So no real need for the STAY at all...


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> So, your dog holds a sit stay for 10 seconds at that's it?? Yes, that is too soft on your dog...they are not holding a stay if they drop into a down. Lars happily did a 3 minute sit stay with me out of sight last night in class. I feel a dog should be able to hold a sit stay for a minute without breaking...that is the basic sit stay in novice obedience.


It would make me question if there is a physical reason the dog doesn't want to hold that position. "But he sits on his own forever!" Maybe in a slightly different position. "But other things don't bother him!" Well, I can walk for hours, I can't stand in place for longer than 30 seconds. I have no trouble going up stairs, going down makes my legs tremble.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Something else I wanted to say...

More important than what method you use for stay is; don't get frustrated! Don't sweat it!
If you're stressed about training then she will pick up on that which will make training no fun for either of you. If you need to retrain her to a different method then hey; that's more time you have to bond and build your communication together.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I know some people do not say stay to their dogs just expect them to stay in the position they leave them in. I always use STAY when I leave my dog in any position, otherwise how is she to know when she is heeling and sits automatically, that I do not want her to go with me when I leave? I always leave on my right foot when I am having them stay and my left when I want them to heel but I still use the STAY command and always circle around them back into heel position before releasing them whether they are in a sit, down or stand. Kris knows to sit outside the door when she wants in and I don't use stay for that but always make her stay till she is released to come in.

I taught Susie the Wait command when I was out walking with her off leash as I wanted her to be able to go with me when I was riding my horse and needed her to Wait at roads, etc. She learned it very well and it came in handy.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Kyllobernese said:


> I know some people do not say stay to their dogs just expect them to stay in the position they leave them in. I always use STAY when I leave my dog in any position, otherwise how is she to know when she is heeling and sits automatically, that I do not want her to go with me when I leave? I always leave on my right foot when I am having them stay and my left when I want them to heel but I still use the STAY command and always circle around them back into heel position before releasing them whether they are in a sit, down or stand. Kris knows to sit outside the door when she wants in and I don't use stay for that but always make her stay till she is released to come in.
> 
> I taught Susie the Wait command when I was out walking with her off leash as I wanted her to be able to go with me when I was riding my horse and needed her to Wait at roads, etc. She learned it very well and it came in handy.


This ^^^ is the type of information you can get from experienced handlers and trainers who know their sport. Kikopup, Zak George, and most of the youtube trainers are developing their materials for "pet" dogs and pet dog owners who don't necessarily care if the dog if their dog's heel position isn't perfect or if they shift from a sit to a down during a stay.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Amaryllis said:


> It would make me question if there is a physical reason the dog doesn't want to hold that position. "But he sits on his own forever!" Maybe in a slightly different position. "But other things don't bother him!" Well, I can walk for hours, I can't stand in place for longer than 30 seconds. I have no trouble going up stairs, going down makes my legs tremble.


Her dogs are 6 months, 8 months, and 21 months old. If at that age, the dogs can't hold a 10 second sit...they need to go to the vet because there is something structurally wrong. If they were 10, 12, and 14...that's reasonable to say there could be a pain issue there and I would opt for a down stay. She said that *She* finds extended sits to uncomfortable for her dogs...that's plural. It's pretty bad luck that all three young dogs are physically unable to hold a 10 second sit. 

I teach a CGC and therapy dog class at a training facility...a CGC sit stay is longer than 10 seconds when the person walks out 20 feet and then walks back to the dog. I think it would be reasonable for a dog unless they have major structural issues (which was not stated) to hold a sit for a person to walk out 20 feet, pause, and walk back. If your dog doesn't have structural issues...then I would have to say the owner is being too easy by allowing a dog of 6 months and older to break a 10 second sit stay. And, I would tell you that flat out in my class.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

MrsBoats said:


> So, your dog holds a sit stay for 10 seconds at that's it?? Yes, that is too soft on your dog...they are not holding a stay if they drop into a down. Lars happily did a 3 minute sit stay with me out of sight last night in class. I feel a dog should be able to hold a sit stay for a minute without breaking...that is the basic sit stay in novice obedience.


I don't do formal obedience with my dogs, I have no interest in it. Stay is important to me, I get how you would get that it isn't but just because "sit/stay" isn't doesn't mean that my dogs don't have a strong stay. Freyja will hold a down indefinitely. I don't have to say "stay" it is implied that she not get up from her down until she is released. I can throw toys, the other dogs can run around her, the cat can jump over her back, I can throw food across her, kids can run scream through the room, the door can be open, doesn't matter, "down" means you lay on the floor until I say "release". I am just not fussed over a sit stay. Duke is the only dog in my house that knows the word "stay" because he was taught at a class that used the command. I don't think there is anything wrong with Freyja, our living room is just laminate and slippery so she doesn't get good traction. She can hold a sit far longer on the carpet in the bedroom or the sidewalk outside and she will then. We just don't bother on working on the default stay in sit as her "down" is strong and I never really felt like position was that critical. As long as she will drop and hold it indefinitely she is going to be safe.

ETA: Mrs. Boats, actually I have 6 dogs and they range in age from Duke who is 8 to Hobs who is 6months. Dove can't hold a sit at all because she wiggles too much, she needs a ton of work I won't lie. Freyja can hold a sit on surfaces other than our laminate living room/hall/kitchen but it is not her default stay position. I use it for her "wait" when going out the door for a walk or loading into the car, watch me during walks ect. Hobgoblin could hold a sit forever, it is his default position but I still use down for long stays because it just seems more fair and ultimately I like it better. Blue doesn't do anything, she has lovely house manners but that is all. Remus can hold a 1minute sit easy, he can hold a down longer. He is one of those dogs that does what he prefers more often than what I want and as he grows to maturity it only gets worse. Duke is the only dog in the house that has a "formal stay" but he has a suspected brain tumor and most days doesn't know where he is.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Simply put, your issue seems to be the dog reverting to a default sit whenever he's left in either a down or a stand ... correct ? Should be a relatively easy fix.

_Duration before distance before distraction._ Remain beside your dog to begin with.

_Make note of the elapsed time when your dog breaks, currently._ This will give you an idea of where to reward PRIOR to breaking. ie: if your dog breaks at 14 seconds, reward at 10 sec and release. Reset the dog, reissue the cue, reward at 12 sec and release, then at 14, and gradually progress to 18, 23, 35 etc. Once that's solid begin to add distance by pivoting directly in front (always moving your right foot first) for a random length of time, return to heel position, reward, and release. Next, pivot then take one step back still facing your dog, return, reward, release. Then, two steps back, then five etc etc

_Feed for position. _ For example, always deliver the reward for a down, down at the floor between the dog's front feet. Or in the case of a stand, right in front of the dog's nose, and level with it, not above or below the imaginary line. 

_Keep rewards in balance._ You'll need to counteract the history of the default sit, so stop practicing/rewarding sit altogether for the time being. Increase frequency of practicing/rewarding for the other two behaviours.


If OB competitions are your goal, it will certainly be easier if you can somehow receive specific, 'eyes-on' instruction. I believe people here would be willing to offer friendly suggestions if you could post videos, if that helps, but a real life instructor would still be best.


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## AKDogTrainer12 (Mar 10, 2012)

I would teach how ever you feel comfortable. Emily along with every other trainer have different ways on teaching stay.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

MrsBoats said:


> How old is your dog now??


She is 10 months old now. I don't know if that is too young to expect much, but I've been training her since she was 8 weeks old, although I've been slacking on it a little lately, like only doing one or two training sessions a day. She learned everything else almost immediately, like go to your bed, bark, drop it, leave it...at a much younger age.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

BernerMax said:


> Also my trainer taught our giant schnauzer that SIT means sit til you are released. And so does DOWN. So no real need for the STAY at all...


That is exactly the kikopup method I saw on youtube. That is what I'm trying to do. It makes sense, or else what does sit mean? sit for one second then run away? I want her to stay in the position I tell her to, but since I taught default sit at 8 weeks, I can't seem to figure out how to teach her. She tries to fall into a sit every other second and I can barely get her to stretch it out at all.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

To clarify: I am not going to be competing, but I feel like this problem is hurting my other training because she can't stay. That is why I want to do it with the right foundation. I don't just want a good companion, I want to be able to keep building her trick repertoire and not have it limited by a bad foundation. 

I am so frustrated with myself. I want to take her picture, but I can't get her to not follow me after she sits or lays down. I want to teach her to hold an object, but she won't even stay, so the object is moot.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> Something else I wanted to say...
> 
> More important than what method you use for stay is; don't get frustrated! Don't sweat it!
> If you're stressed about training then she will pick up on that which will make training no fun for either of you. If you need to retrain her to a different method then hey; that's more time you have to bond and build your communication together.


I know I do act frustrated sometimes, and believe me, I know how detrimental that is. That's part of the reason I wanted advice, because I'm not sure what path to take, which would help some of the frustration.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

petpeeve said:


> Simply put, your issue seems to be the dog reverting to a default sit whenever he's left in either a down or a stand ... correct ? Should be a relatively easy fix.
> 
> _Duration before distance before distraction._ Remain beside your dog to begin with.
> 
> ...


You got the issue. When she wants something or is confused or frustrated she sits. She even sits in front of trees so they will give her the squirrel and in front of the fridge so it will open for her. She generalized like crazy with "sit to say please"
This helped a lot! Duration before distance! 

I think I kindof stated doing that this week, by not moving away from her and instead trying to drag the stand and down stays out by rewarding right before the second I thought she was considering going into a sit. 

I don't reward her default sit with treats, but she learned it so young that she seems to find it rewarding regardless of treats.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Perrin said:


> I should have asked this a long time ago and stopped myself from going crazy, but I kept thinking it would sort itself out, and it hasn't.
> 
> Basically, the Kikopup method for stay is that all poses (sit, down, stand) also mean stay and that you always have to release your dog. Well the issue is that I did "7 days to a perfect puppy" method which taught a default sit when Perrin was only 8 weeks old, so she always breaks her poses to sit. I have been trying for months and I can't get her to stay in a stand or down at all!
> 
> Should I give up on the kikopup method and just do "sit stay" instead of "sit"? how did you all teach stays?


Using a different command won't fix the issue. That is if I'm understanding you correctly, and you want to use the command "sit..... stay" rather than just "sit". The dog still has to learn what the command means, which seems to be what you're having trouble with.

I would fix this by using rapid fire rewards in position. Start with a down, because it's easier than stand, while you're dog is in the down position, feed your dog as fast as she can swallow (about 1 treat per second). If you feed her fast enough, it will be hard for her to get up, and because you are feeding her while she is lying down, she will think lying down is awesome.

After giving her 15-20 treats in position, release, and repeat. If she gets up before you release, simply stop feeding. Say and do nothing. She will have a think about it and realise that all the fun happened while she was lying down, and will lie down on her own. You might have re-cue the down the first 3-4 reps, but after that she should just offer it.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Perrin said:


> She generalized like crazy with "sit to say please"


This, IMO is awesome! Caeda has done that to a degree as well (with some things....particularly things she finds exciting, which is doubly good for us). 

I have taught Caeda "Sit" or "Down" (and tried for "Stand", but didn't keep up on it) means do that until released. I'm not TOO strict on it generally, that said, she'll do them for quite a while (minimum 3-5 mins for a sit, 20+ mins for a down) before breaking.....and if she breaks with those durations I blame myself for asking too much...or forgetting (there's usually circumstances involved....needs to pee, its too darn hot and she needs a drink, or its too cold and she doesn't want to sit on snow!). I have also taught her Stay, which is "freeze". She'll usually stop (often standing), pause for a second then often default to a sit stay if I say that, I'm not TOO sticky on it, I'm not going for a title, so if she chooses a position and doesn't break it, I don't get worked up. I have had good intentions on making the stand stay happen if I say "Stay" and she is standing, but....intentions right.....I also TRY to keep an eye on her, whatever position she is in, if I see her shuffling a bit, like she wants to lay down from a sit, I'll often give the cue to down rather than let her decide on her own. If the stay is particularly important (glass on the floor, spill of something potentially bad for her) I usually get her to down, and add the stay command, I think that is more for my benefit though .

Really, how you train it, and what you train each thing to mean really should have a lot to do with what your eventual goals/needs are for those commands. If you are training for competition, talk to someone in the given sport and find out what the rules are for those commands in trials. 

Petpeeve is completely right with "duration before distance before distraction". When I trained it I did duration for each distance as well, then added in distraction when I was getting good results on both distance and duration. Basically I did 0 distance, got up to a min or two, added distractions (toss toys, get someone to run around yelling, then try it in "the real world"), do the same thing again at 2-5 feet, again at 5-10, etc etc. I stopped doing it so methodically at about 10 feet of distance, and just tried for more, in real situations. I think I've been up to about 40 feet away, but I didn't exactly measure. 

Oh....and something you can consider, that might be separate training (though I guess it would technically be distraction) is whether you are in view of your dog. If you want to step out of view, you'll want to do that carefully as well as far as duration goes. If your dog can stay for 2 mins, don't go out of eye shot for a full two minutes at first...step away for maybe 2-3 seconds at first.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Add me to the list of people who don't like "sit means sit until released". Dogs are told to "sit" all the time for various reasons, and having to enforce staying every single time is just way too much work for me. If someone on the street is petting him and asks him to sit, do I have to remember to release him or make him stay there? It's hard enough to be consistent and I know I can't be that consistent. I'd rather just tell him to "stay".

I also have a "stay" and a "wait" cue. "Stay" means stay there until I come back to you, while "wait" means wait there until I release you (probably to come to me, go outside, eat your dinner, etc). I should be more consistent with this, and I know my husband uses them interchangably, but at least in theory this is how I do it. lol

You do not need a "sit means sit until released" for competition obedience. I actually don't know anybody who uses that in competition obedience. I've seen it in books or online, but have never been taught it in person.

I agree with the others that finding a class would be a huge help to you. There are probably very small and subtle things that you need to change about how you are training this, and someone in person could help you get through it in a matter of minutes.

Also, 10 months old is not too young to be expecting any of the things you've asked about. It might be too young for your particular dog to expect those behaviors to be perfect in distracting places, but a basic sit or down stay for a minuteis not beyond her capabilities.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> You do not need a "sit means sit until released" for competition obedience. I actually don't know anybody who uses that in competition obedience. I've seen it in books or online, but have never been taught it in person.


 In IPO obedience, for the long down for instance, if you tell your dog "Down" then "Stay" it is a double command and you lose points for it. There is a situation that includes sit as well....walking with the dog you stop, tell it to sit, walk so many paces (20 I think...I can't quite recall), wait, then come back to your dog. Telling the dog stay as well isn't allowed if I recall correctly. That is just for BH and IPO1 obedience....(if I'm recalling correctly, its been a while since I went over the rules), I'm sure there is more in IPO 2 and 3.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Greater Swiss said:


> In IPO obedience, for the long down for instance, if you tell your dog "Down" then "Stay" it is a double command and you lose points for it. There is a situation that includes sit as well....walking with the dog you stop, tell it to sit, walk so many paces (20 I think...I can't quite recall), wait, then come back to your dog. Telling the dog stay as well isn't allowed if I recall correctly. That is just for BH and IPO1 obedience....(if I'm recalling correctly, its been a while since I went over the rules), I'm sure there is more in IPO 2 and 3.


Ahh, makes sense. I've never worked with an IPO person for obedience, only AKC ob people. I have seen some of them use a "sit means sit until released" with their own dogs, during a seminar or something, but not had them teach or expect people in the class to do it as well.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

CKC judge: "This will be your one minute sit stay. Sit your dog".

Handlers, collectively: "sit". (even though all dogs are likely sitting already)

CKC judge: "Leave your dog".

Handlers, collectively: "STAY".


Eight people, all saying STAY at the same time is powerful and difficult for the dog to miss. Why would anyone not want to take advantage of the opportunity to use a second command, especially if CKC rules permit it? 
jmpo


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

Greater Swiss said:


> Really, how you train it, and what you train each thing to mean really should have a lot to do with what your eventual goals/needs are for those commands. If you are training for competition, talk to someone in the given sport and find out what the rules are for those commands in trials.
> 
> Petpeeve is completely right with "duration before distance before distraction". When I trained it I did duration for each distance as well, then added in distraction when I was getting good results on both distance and duration. Basically I did 0 distance, got up to a min or two, added distractions (toss toys, get someone to run around yelling, then try it in "the real world"), do the same thing again at 2-5 feet, again at 5-10, etc etc. I stopped doing it so methodically at about 10 feet of distance, and just tried for more, in real situations. I think I've been up to about 40 feet away, but I didn't exactly measure.
> 
> Oh....and something you can consider, that might be separate training (though I guess it would technically be distraction) is whether you are in view of your dog. If you want to step out of view, you'll want to do that carefully as well as far as duration goes. If your dog can stay for 2 mins, don't go out of eye shot for a full two minutes at first...step away for maybe 2-3 seconds at first.


I'm not training for competition, but I do see many reasons why I would want her to stay standing and not sit or lay down. I do rapid fire treats in her mouth for duration, but when you say 2 or 3 mins, I realize I don't think I'm building up to that long. That could be the key! 

She does well with going out of eyesight with sit for a few seconds, but if she is in stand, she immediately walks away or sits.


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> Add me to the list of people who don't like "sit means sit until released". Dogs are told to "sit" all the time for various reasons, and having to enforce staying every single time is just way too much work for me. If someone on the street is petting him and asks him to sit, do I have to remember to release him or make him stay there? It's hard enough to be consistent and I know I can't be that consistent. I'd rather just tell him to "stay".
> 
> Also, 10 months old is not too young to be expecting any of the things you've asked about. It might be too young for your particular dog to expect those behaviors to be perfect in distracting places, but a basic sit or down stay for a minuteis not beyond her capabilities.


No, I guess I knew 10 months isn't too young. It's definitely me and not her that is the problem. I was also worried abut how often other people tell her to sit and then don't release her, but I figured it won't be a problem because she probably doesn't generalize other people telling her commands to be the same as when I do. Maybe that is a false assumption, I don't know.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Perrin said:


> She does well with going out of eyesight with sit for a few seconds, but if she is in stand, she immediately walks away or sits.


Then you are increasing your distance and distraction with the stand too quickly. She needs to understand it while you're still standing right in front of her before you move away.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

There certainly are people in AKC obedience who don't use a stay command, just "sit," "down," or "stand" and the stay is implied. I agree with Elrohwen that it's too much work.  I use stay and wait, depending on the situation.


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

elrohwen said:


> Then you are increasing your distance and distraction with the stand too quickly. She needs to understand it while you're still standing right in front of her before you move away.


 I agree.....but I will add, the stand stay seems to be notoriously difficult, at least for me (and I know a lot of people who have had issues with it). It is SO easy for the dog to just.....take one more step, and then another. When I was working on it with Caeda (and as I said, I did abandon working on that one seriously), I was starting out with a stand-stay for 1-5 seconds, and this was when she would already down stay for 5 mins or more. It is a tough one IMO. 

You could try it standing next to her as well, rather than having her in front. I noticed it seemed so natural for Caeda to just rock back into a sit if she was staring forwards up at me, yet, for some reason if I was next to her, she seemed less prone to do that. Might just be her and I though....but starting the stand-stay from a different position might help....just a thought


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

The funny thing with the Stand Stay for Kris, it is actually her best STAY and I worked on it the least. I tell her to Stand, then Stay and walk away. Any number of people can go over her and she has never moved one step. I return, walk around her into heel position and she does not move till released. I wonder sometimes if it is because I have never had to correct her whereas in the long Sits and Downs, she has moved and I have had to put her back in place. Always wonder what goes through their minds.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I suggest that you 'forget' about Down and Stand stay for now, and improve Sit Stay - 2 min. at 20 feet (100 feet, if you're interested).

After you can get a reasonable Sit Stay that you're happy with, then go on to Down Stay, 2 min at 20 feet. Keep practicing Sit Stay.
Finally work on Stand Stay. Anecdotally, large dogs, such as Irish Wolfhounds do a great Stand Stay.... Most other dogs get really bored.

Most dogs will tell you when they are getting 'bored' with Stay - it may be a lip lick, a scratch, a bark, a tail wag, something ... and then the Stay breaks.
Early in training, release before the break. As training progresses, reinforce the Stay, when you see the unique signal, before the break. 
Do this with all three Stays. 

When I taught Shep, the formal Sit Stay was arduous, he'd bark at me as his signal to break. I allowed the bark backtalk, so he learned that he could bark as long as he stayed, so I had to shush the bark, in addition to the Stay  The Down Stay was fairly uneventful, as long as he could Down in a comfortable location - rocky concrete wasn't good for training, but soft grass was OK. Stand Stay took me twice as long as Down Stay, but he'd wag his tail before breaking, so it was obvious and easy to anticipate and catch.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't use the word stay or wait, but that is just personal preference. Stay and wait to me are words that don't really mean anything, and if you use them, then basically sit doesn't mean anything. If you're cueing the dog to sit to greet someone, but you haven't told the dog to stay, then what's stopping the dog's butt from hitting the ground and then jumping straight back up? When you don't use a stay cue, technically the dog is allowed to do this. And then sitting to greet someone becomes pointless because the dog is free to not sit when greeting people.

But as I said, it's just personal preference. I teach sit until released and the release word from the first moment I'm teaching a sit, but I regularly tell clients that it's up to them if they want to use the word stay, and I explain the difference required in being consistent with the release every time. I find that people who have kids tend to go for a "stay" command because it's too hard to be consistent with just "sit", and people who are the sole trainer/handler for the dog or more interested in the training aspect (vs just wanting a well behaved dog) tend to prefer just "sit".


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## Perrin (Feb 7, 2014)

So I wanted to update everyone and thank you for your help! I am sticking with one command and not adding stay so sit means "sit stay" etc. The breakthrough I think was "duration before distance." So I am working on the duration up close and it seems to be helping! I will need to give it more time to see if things are really different, but I think they will be!


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