# Putting the dog's face IN the poo.



## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

Hi all,

I have been trying to explain to my husband that putting our 4 1/2-yr old Chihuahua's face IN her poo when she has an accident in the house is very wrong, and an ineffective way to discipline her.

A bit of background: We moved around a lot and had erratic work schedules for the first 2 years of her life and she was badly housebroken as a result. As of the past year, she has been very good and kept on a regular schedule.

So, now, she's 4 1/2 and doesn't have any accidents UNLESS one of three things happen:

1) She's sick and has the runs
2) She wasn't let out on schedule
3) We left her food bowl down throughout the day

When one of these three things happen, it's almost a guarantee that she's going to have an accident in the house. Problem is, my husband insists that putting her face IN the poo HOURS after the incident is just simple discipline and that I should just accept it and that she'll eventually learn not to go in the house ever again.

Can somebody please shed some light on this situation? Am I wrong to think that this is pretty cruel and unsanitary and doesn't teach the dog anything at all and only confuses and scares her? 

Thank you in advance.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

No, you are not wrong. All he is teaching her is that poop + husband = scary, which (to nip his next claim in the bud) is why she acts "guilty" when he finds poop in the house. She's not feeling ashamed or guilty, she's scared and giving off submissive signals because she's expecting him to do something scary like rub her face in poop.

A couple friend of mine had a dog who they INSISTED felt "guilty" for pooping in the house when he was being housetrained. Nothing anyone said would convince them otherwise because when they got home if they found poop he would go slinking off. Fast forward several years when that dog was a fully housetrained adult and they got a new puppy. They got home to find that the puppy had a poop accident in the house (they could tell for sure by the size of the poop) and lo and behold, the ADULT dog was slinking around acting "guilty" and the puppy was happy as could be. Because to the adult dog, poop + owner = yelling, even when he hadn't done it! After that, they finally believed everyone else. 

ETA: And punishing a dog for having diarrhea in the house is just not fair. I'd like to see HIM hold his poop for hours and hours without access to a toilet when HE has diarrhea.


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## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

Thank you. I can understand doing it when the dog is caught in the act (putting her face near the poo, but not IN it), but HOURS after the incident seems completely inappropriate to me.

P.S. Any more backup I can get on this matter would be greatly appreciated.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

carokin said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have been trying to explain to my husband that putting our 4 1/2-yr old Chihuahua's face IN her poo when she has an accident in the house is very wrong, and an ineffective way to discipline her.
> 
> ...


You're not wrong; you're absolutely right. It isn't teaching her anything except to suck up and hope to stave off any and all attack your DH might dish out. A lot of people interperet the appeasement thing, walking low, tail tucked between the legs, ears low, even submissive urinating as a true sign that the dog either "knows what she did", or "knows it was wrong". When in all actuality the poor dog is trying to appease itself out of an attack (getting its nose shoved in poop for no reason known to the dog). 
BTW, I'm saying attack instead of punishment or discipline (as in Jean Donaldsons books), because both punishment and discipline have to be administered right off the bat after the offense if it's going to have any effect. When a dog doesn't know why it's having its nose shoved in poop, it's basically an attack out of the blue. Plain and simple. You might end up with a dog who continues to have accidents on occasion, but will steal away behind the couch or in a spare bedroom because to her poop = wrong. You also might end up with a dog who holds it outside while a person is there. Bring her back in without going, and she'll take the first opportunity to go off when the attacker isn't present and go then.
If your DH is open minded enough, you might order him the Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson...she has an excellent chapter on housetraining. If he won't read it and won't listen...I don't think anyone here can help you  Only thing you can do is try to let her out on schedule as rigidly as possible, and try to keep the food bowl picked up.



carokin said:


> Thank you. I can understand doing it when the dog is caught in the act (putting her face near the poo, but not IN it), but HOURS after the incident seems completely inappropriate to me.
> 
> P.S. Any more backup I can get on this matter would be greatly appreciated.


Even putting her face near the poo will not help. If my puppies have an accident, I rush them outside and praise for finishing up. I clean the mess up wordlessly and drama free. Dogs aren't born knowing about houses vs. outdoors, persian rugs, and how expensive enzymatic cleaners can be.


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## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes! Submissive urinating. I've tried with this one as well. She tinkles all over the floor if he's been away for work for a couple of days and showers her with affection the minute he comes home. I have tried to explain to him to ignore her when he first comes into the house and wait until she settles down before greeting her. I know it's off-topic from my original thread, but I just wanted to point out that she does the submissive urinating thing as well.


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## That'llDo (Apr 13, 2010)

carokin said:


> So, now, she's 4 1/2 and doesn't have any accidents UNLESS one of three things happen:
> 
> 1) She's sick and has the runs
> 2) She wasn't let out on schedule
> ...


So...since you are the big clever primates who fully comprehend cause and effect, and you are the ones who in 2/3 of those cases are therefore at fault in those cases (and nobody is at fault in the third), I recommend that you rub your husband's face in the mess.

Kidding, kidding, but I agree with you. He isn't helping, because she doesn't understand why he would do that. And besides that, it sounds like she only does it when she really can't help it, so she isn't learning anything by that. Just that if she can't hold it, she'd better be scared, because she'll be punished.


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## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

Yes, exactly. It is our fault, and yet he insists on doing it. I think maybe approaching it by paraphrasing what LazyGRanch713 said above about punishment and discipline having to be administered right after the offense might work.

Thank you for your comments. Keep them coming if you have any!


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## ZeeDoggy (Jul 16, 2010)

I never understood that housebreaking "method." It's an ineffective way of training, just plain cruel, and a good example of discipline vs. punishment. Discipline means showing your dogs the rules and being consistent with them. You mentioned that she's sometimes not let out on schedule (by the way, who's in charge of the schedule?) that's inconsistent. From my experience, a properly disciplined dog doesn't ever require punishment (corrections are a different story though).

The dog must be so unsure around your husband never knowing if he's going to see excessive affection or a face full of $hit. To put it bluntly, your husband needs to be trained and not the dog.


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

To be quite honest i wouldn't stand for it!

Not a hope in hell i would ever let my husband do that to any pet of mine. 

Ask him how he knows this will help and tell him to read up online all the hundreds of pages of evidence that it will either make a submissive dog who won't pee or poop anywhere there is people or aggressive dog.


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## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

We're both in charge of the schedule but sometimes we screw up. For example, on the weekends we neglect to take her food up so she free feeds all day. No accidents though, because we're home during those days and take her out more often. But then during the week, sometimes we forget about the food bowl again and it gets left down so she eats all day and then has an accident. It's totally our fault, and I accept full responsibility for that but still don't accept that she should have to be punished for it. And I agree with your comment about punishment and correction being very different.



katielou said:


> To be quite honest i wouldn't stand for it!
> 
> Not a hope in hell i would ever let my husband do that to any pet of mine.
> 
> Ask him how he knows this will help and tell him to read up online all the hundreds of pages of evidence that it will either make a submissive dog who won't pee or poop anywhere there is people or aggressive dog.


I've tried this recommendation. He's very stubborn. I'm accepting that he'll probably never change this behaviour, but I'm having a hard time accepting that this is going to continue to happen to her if she continues to have accidents in the house. It's very disconcerting. :\


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

But why do you let it happen?
If my husband tried that i would fly off the handle. It cruel in my book for anyone to do that to a dog.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

carokin said:


> We're both in charge of the schedule but sometimes we screw up. For example, on the weekends we neglect to take her food up so she free feeds all day. No accidents though, because we're home during those days and take her out more often. But then during the week, sometimes we forget about the food bowl again and it gets left down so she eats all day and then has an accident. It's totally our fault, and I accept full responsibility for that but still don't accept that she should have to be punished for it. And I agree with your comment about punishment and correction being very different.
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried this recommendation. He's very stubborn. I'm accepting that he'll probably never change this behaviour, but I'm having a hard time accepting that this is going to continue to happen to her if she continues to have accidents in the house. It's very disconcerting. :\


I'm not sure if you rent, own, etc, but would it be feasible to install a dog door going to a small dog kennel, where she could have free access to come and go if she needed? I installed a dog door about a year ago to go into my fenced yard; best money I ever spent  And it can also be closed off, if you would prefer she stay inside during specific times. Just a thought, since humans are no more 100% consistant and reliable than dogs are, and your DH sounds like he's not "getting" it.


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## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

I did fly off the handle, but right now it comes down to a difference of opinion between us. I think it's wrong, he doesn't. People here can offer me valuable support for my opinion, and his friends who all have dogs and practice face-in-poo can all support his opinion. So it's pretty difficult!



LazyGRanch713 said:


> I'm not sure if you rent, own, etc, but would it be feasible to install a dog door going to a small dog kennel, where she could have free access to come and go if she needed? I installed a dog door about a year ago to go into my fenced yard; best money I ever spent  And it can also be closed off, if you would prefer she stay inside during specific times. Just a thought, since humans are no more 100% consistant and reliable than dogs are, and your DH sounds like he's not "getting" it.


This would be amazing if we had a house with a yard. I'll definitely keep it in mind, thank you


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

katielou said:


> To be quite honest i wouldn't stand for it!
> 
> *Not a hope in hell i would ever let my husband do that to any pet of mine. *
> 
> Ask him how he knows this will help and tell him to read up online all the hundreds of pages of evidence that it will either make a submissive dog who won't pee or poop anywhere there is people or aggressive dog.


That's why I am single  99% of guys I dated seemed to be able to stomach Auz because he was big, macho, a "real dog". But the papillons? Pfft. Apparently their lack of endowment made them believe they wouldn't be viewed as "real men" if they were caught walking a dog that weighs 10-15 pounds. (FTR, my little dogs are twice as brave as the GSD...he's a wuss, real dog or not!)



carokin said:


> I did fly off the handle, but right now it comes down to a difference of opinion between us. I think it's wrong, he doesn't. People here can offer me valuable support for my opinion, and his friends who all have dogs and practice face-in-poo can all support his opinion. So it's pretty difficult!
> 
> 
> 
> This would be amazing if we had a house with a yard. I'll definitely keep it in mind, thank you


If you own, you can get some small covered chain link dog kennels at TSC for relatively cheap. You could access the dog door from there, as a chi doesn't really need 5 acres in order to do their business. If you rent, you might have to discuss it with your landlord first. But definitely keep it in mind


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## katielou (Apr 29, 2010)

Luckily i am married to an awesome guy who loves dogs and is willing to listen to my training idea's. 

But my dad tried to put my pups face in pee once. I removed thedog from my dad and told him if he ever did that again i would call the vet to neuter him.
Which is why i don't understand how the OP could let her OH do it.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

katielou said:


> Luckily i am married to an awesome guy who loves dogs and is willing to listen to my training idea's.
> 
> But my dad tried to put my pups face in pee once. I removed thedog from my dad and told him if he ever did that again i would call the vet to neuter him.
> Which is why i don't understand how the OP could let her OH do it.


Some people handle confrontation differently. I don't like confrontation, and I don't relish blowing up at those I love. My parents came from the generation that fed table scraps, kept intact dogs outdoors as farm animals, and never took their dogs to the vet; luckily my mom has evolved from that. I would never blow up at her if she did something I didn't approve of. If she didn't want to listen, I would keep my dogs away from her. 
I have a friend who disciplines her dogs by sitting on them (no kidding). They attempted to do that to one of my dogs once. I said "oh, let me handle it, he's my dog" and gave the dog a time out in another room (which was probably appreciated by my dog). On the rare occasions that I've blown up at someone, it didn't end nicely. Different strokes and all


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I wouldn't blow up at my husband, but I'd definitely use my Serious Voice.  

(Which quite frankly is a good deal more menacing.)


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## ZeeDoggy (Jul 16, 2010)

Have you ever tried those puppy pads inside the house? I know some dogs can even be liter trained as well!


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

How sad for your dog!...If my hubby did that I'd be rubbing my fist in his face!!!


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## Papilove (May 20, 2010)

I understand where your husband is coming from because I remember a time when I was young and that was considered appropriate training... that said, he's wrong. Just because people used to do something a certain way, doesn't mean we haven't learned over the years that it's the wrong way to do things, and made adjustments. He is stuck in the very distant past.

I came in after reading the title and thinking who _still_does that?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

All I can picture is what should happen the next time he leaves the toilet seat up.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Obviously, it's not working (because he has to keep doing it). To me, that's all the proof you need. His method is ineffective because the behavior continues. He can't argue with objective behavior.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

cjmo75 said:


> I've never ever done that with my Pug. I'm pretty sure that was discovered long ago to be totally innefective - and rather inhumane. The way I look at it is that I would never rub a babies face in their poo for going in their diaper, so why do it to a puppy? Now, I'm not implying that puppies are the same as babies, but it's along the same lines.
> 
> I know this might sound cliche, but I actually learned everything I know about training my dog from the dog whisperer. I always think to myself, "What would Ceasar do?" *He would put a leash on the dog, walk it by the poop, give it one of his little "pushes" in front of the poop, and immediately walk the dog outside to an area where it has gone before in the past.*
> 
> Many people think he actually "whispers" to the dogs, but in actuality, all he is doing is establishing a bond.


He would? It might not affect some (bomb proof) dogs, but what if you have a dog who has NO IDEA what housetraining is about? All they are going to probably learn is that a pile of poop means they get pushed.



Curbside Prophet said:


> All I can picture is what should happen the next time he leaves the toilet seat up.


LOL!! Good one!


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Oh my goodness I thought the same thing, Curbside.

I think it would be more effective if you wiped his face in the poo when your dog has an accident. Dogs have accidents either because they are sick (not their fault) or because people have failed them in someway (not their fault) Put the blame where it belongs and start treating this poor dog with a little respect. Take the time to properly train her, to get her out as often as she needs and quit abusing her.


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## RedyreRottweilers (Dec 17, 2006)

If any (insert expletive) EVER tried to do this to one of my dogs, they would be eating a *hit sandwich while attempting to remove my foot from their *ss. This is BARBARIC, revolting, and disgusting and it will not help the little dog get trained.

I'm not sure anyone who would do something like this can be helped, other than out the door.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

cjmo75 said:


> I always think to myself, "What would Ceasar do?" He would put a leash on the dog, walk it by the poop,* give it one of his little "pushes" in front of the poop,* and immediately walk the dog outside to an area where it has gone before in the past.


 ... and this differs from a "nose-rub" in exactly what way ??? Death by hanging, ... death by electrocution, .. either way it's still death.




I firmly believe in the "rolled-up-newspaper method". >>

When the dog pees or poops in the house, immediately get a newspaper, roll it up .... 

... and proceed to slap YOURSELF in the head with it, because it's YOUR mistake, YOUR issue, .. not the dog's.


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## Bordermom (Apr 28, 2010)

Yup, rolled up newspaper firmly whacking the human's head.

For the feeding, how much does she normally eat? And why is there more in the bowl if she isn't going to finish that in a short time? Measure out her breakfast and give her only that amount, that way she shouldn't be grazing all day. If my guys leave food in their bowls something's wrong!

As for the rest, have a talk with the hubby and let him know it's much cheaper to get on board than it is to split up half your stuff and watch his wife with another guy. What happens when you have kids and he tries something dumb? I had to go through this with the OH, he didn't think toddlers would wander, or needed to be on any routine, all sorts of things he had to learn to just shut up and listen to (my fave was 'do NOT let the 4 year old go out to find someone to play with on his own').

Lana


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

carokin said:


> We're both in charge of the schedule but sometimes we screw up. For example, on the weekends we neglect to take her food up so she free feeds all day. No accidents though, because we're home during those days and take her out more often. But then during the week, sometimes we forget about the food bowl again and it gets left down so she eats all day and then has an accident. It's totally our fault, and I accept full responsibility for that but still don't accept that she should have to be punished for it. And I agree with your comment about punishment and correction being very different.


It's quite simple. The dog doesn't associate the punishment with the pooping if the punishment is after the fact. It has to be only when caught "in the act" so the dog will associate the punishment with the act.

The backlash of the improper punishment is that the dog simply think it's owner is being randomly cruel, and the dog starts doing things like submissive peeing when you come home and other bad behaviors to try to make sure it doesn't get punished at random.





> I've tried this recommendation. He's very stubborn. I'm accepting that he'll probably never change this behaviour, but I'm having a hard time accepting that this is going to continue to happen to her if she continues to have accidents in the house. It's very disconcerting. :\


It should be. As has been said, if it was the right way to train then the dog would have stopped doing it. Obviously it isn't working. It's all the proof you should need.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

carokin said:


> We're both in charge of the schedule but sometimes we screw up. For example, on the weekends we neglect to take her food up so she free feeds all day. No accidents though, because we're home during those days and take her out more often. But then during the week, sometimes we forget about the food bowl again and it gets left down so she eats all day and then has an accident. It's totally our fault, and I accept full responsibility for that but still don't accept that she should have to be punished for it. And I agree with your comment about punishment and correction being very different.
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried this recommendation. He's very stubborn. I'm accepting that he'll probably never change this behaviour, but I'm having a hard time accepting that this is going to continue to happen to her if she continues to have accidents in the house. It's very disconcerting. :\


I find it disconcerting that 2 adults can't handle one very little dog's plate properly. I can understand it happening once or twice maybe.



> 1) She's sick and has the runs
> 2) She wasn't let out on schedule
> 3) We left her food bowl down throughout the day


I guess if the little dog's plate can't be handled the above is way, way, too hard to understand and fix. SICK and SCHEDULE.

This is a thread I will leave quietly because there is nothing I could possibly say that would be understood. I wish your dog luck, she's gonna need it.


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## JiveDadson (Feb 22, 2010)

carokin said:


> Thank you. I can understand doing it when the dog is caught in the act (putting her face near the poo, but not IN it)


Nope. That would not help either. How is the dog supposed to know that it's the location of the event that makes it a crime? Punishing the dog "caught in the act" will only make the dog fearful of being caught in the act where ever it happens - or simply fearful of the human.

I rescued a couple of young adult dogs. One of them had apparently been punished for eliminating.  It took a lot of time and patience to get him to realize that I was not a threat to him when he eliminated. But in time he learned to go outside and not fear me when he did. He is now completely house-trained. But he (and his companion) will still go in the house given either of the first two situations you listed. There is no alternative. What are they supposed to do? Abuse themselves when I do not take care of them properly? Hold it when they have diahrea? Get real. If mine must go in the house, they go on paper towels that I leave out for that purpose. Try it. But take proper care of your animal and the situatuation will hardly ever come up.



carokin said:


> Yes! Submissive urinating. I've tried with this one as well. She tinkles all over the floor if he's been away for work for a couple of days and showers her with affection the minute he comes home. I have tried to explain to him to ignore her when he first comes into the house and wait until she settles down before greeting her. I know it's off-topic from my original thread, but I just wanted to point out that she does the submissive urinating thing as well.


It is not off-topic. The submissive urination is a consequence of your husband's abuse of the dog.



cjmo75 said:


> [...]
> I know this might sound cliche, but I actually learned everything I know about training my dog from the dog whisperer.
> 
> [...]


Then everything you know is wrong.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> I'm accepting that he'll probably never change this behaviour, but I'm having a hard time accepting that this is going to continue to happen to her if she continues to have accidents in the house. It's very disconcerting. :\


If you truly love this dog and you know that this behavior on the part of your husband is not going to stop, I would strongly suggest that you place this little dog with chi rescue. Please give the history to the rescue. This little dog deserves a better life. IMO, your husband is a bully.


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## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

Follow-Up!

Hi All,

Thank you again for all the feedback. Just wanted to follow-up and say that after a few days of some serious discussion and standing my ground and presenting information to support my claim, my husband finally conceded and agreed not to put the dog's face in the poo anymore. 

Also, I'm sure there are many Brad Pattison fans out there, so here is some information I received from one of his representatives after emailing them at bradpattison.com:

_Your husband is correct in holding your dog accountable for her actions. Dogs have a memory and can be punished even if they aren't caught in the act - which is backed up by the "guilty look" the dog has when you get home...she knows she's done something wrong and if you don't punish her for it she will learn to manipulate you by pretending that she feels bad so you won't do anything about it. There is no need to push her face INTO her poo though. If you find an accident when you get home, put her on leash and take her over to her mistake. Have about a 30 second to one minute conversation with her (in an even tone) telling her what she did wrong and that she needs to go outside (or use whatever bathroom term you have). Then to reinforce where she is supposed to go you take her on leash to the correct spot and tie her up there and leave her for 15 minutes. This is like her time out for what she's done wrong. If you are consistent with this she will learn where she is supposed to go and not to go in the house.

Brad elaborates on these sorts of issues in both of his books, Synergy and Unleashed, as well. 

Thanks,

Shantel
VP Education
***no e-mails please***

So. While it seems that he WAS correct in disciplining her hours after the "incident," putting her face IN the poo was unnecessary. We all knew that already, of course, but I just wanted to share the feedback from this reputable source for all those who may have similar issues in the future.

Thanks again!_


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

carokin said:


> Follow-Up!
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> ...


Emailing this 'company' is worse than rubbing the dog's face in the poo, IMO. You couldn't have gotten more unfounded feedback than what you did. Chalk this up as an amusement in time, but do not accept it at all. Brad is not a reputable source, at least not on this planet.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I don't know who Brad Pattison is but that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Your dog does not feel quilty, nor will having a conversation with him/her while staring at the poop teach him/her anything at all.


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## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

Oh wow, ok. Hmmm. Not sure what to say about this, as it seems I brought up a touchy subject. Just want to say that your strong opinions about Brad Pattison or his teaching methods are yours to have, and I accept and respect that. I'm just happy my dog's face isn't going to be put IN the poo anymore, and wanted to share some other feedback I received on the matter. I enjoy his show well enough, and am open minded and accept that he may not have global credibility, but I can respect his opinions and those of his representatives as well, especially when they are in favour of not putting the dog's face IN the poo.


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## tskoffina (Jul 23, 2010)

Ummm, doesn't putting their nose in it actually encourage them to eat it? I thought I read that somewhere...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> So. While it seems that he WAS correct in disciplining her hours after the "incident," putting her face IN the poo was unnecessary. We all knew that already, of course, but I just wanted to share the feedback from this reputable source for all those who may have similar issues in the future.


Are you for real, the idea that you agree with disciplining her hours after the mistake, a dog that will never be smarter than a 2 or 3 yr old child would understand what the discipline was for. Have I got some swamp land in Florida for you. 

What you think is a reputable source, awwww forget it you are beyond help. I just don't have the patience for this kind of silly thinking.


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## carokin (Jul 21, 2010)

Hmm. I have no qualms about enjoying a TV personality, or respecting his opinions, as much as I respect that you have your own. I have no clue where all this negativity comes from against Brad Pattison, but so far all I'm seeing is people bashing him without presenting any supporting information? Seems very strange to me, but anyway, I'm not going to argue it. I'm sure there must have been some unfavourable discussion in the forums here regarding his methods in the past, so I'm just going to take a step back and choose to stop replying here before I myself start getting bashed for having my own thoughts and opinions on the matter. 

I apologize for having irritated a few strongly opinionated people around here as a result of assuming that a TV personality, author and widely popular dog trainer would be considered a reputable source. My original post dealt with putting my dog's face IN the poo, and that's not going to happen anymore, so I'm quite happy either way you choose to cut the cake.

Take care, thanks again for sharing your thoughts


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Carokin, you may want to read this thread:

People from this forum have actually seen Pattison abusing dogs in person. There are tons of anecdotes, plus actual videos, in that thread.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> Have about a 30 second to one minute conversation with her (in an even tone) telling her what she did wrong and that she needs to go outside (or use whatever bathroom term you have).


Reminds of me of the Gary Larson Farside cartoon.










I had never heard of this so called trainer before. I checked out that thread and pulled up the video where he is walking the dog on the leash. OMG....that poor dog....he had NO CLUE what this guy wanted him to do. He kept looking back to him for information. The guy even cued him to go forward and when the poor dog did so, he yanked him back. Talk about confusing that poor dog! Sheesh.....I wouldn't let him near a stuffed dog.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

So Cavalier said:


> Reminds of me of the Gary Larson Farside cartoon.


Yeah, for real.

Spitting out sounds that have no meaning to the dog for 30 seconds without connecting them to behaviors? What a waste of training time 

Seriously, though, it's fine to talk to dogs - but if you're making sounds they don't understand expecting them to somehow understand without teaching them meaning of those sounds they don't understand...yeah... 

At best, she'll pick up on the tone of voice...but then might end up "correcting" her (via tone of voice) to not use the spot she's been dragged out to.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

carokin said:


> Your husband is correct in holding your dog accountable for her actions. Dogs have a memory and can be punished even if they aren't caught in the act - which is backed up by the "guilty look" the dog has when you get home...she knows she's done something wrong and if you don't punish her for it she will learn to manipulate you by pretending that she feels bad so you won't do anything about it. There is no need to push her face INTO her poo though. If you find an accident when you get home, put her on leash and take her over to her mistake. Have about a 30 second to one minute conversation with her (in an even tone) telling her what she did wrong and that she needs to go outside (or use whatever bathroom term you have). Then to reinforce where she is supposed to go you take her on leash to the correct spot and tie her up there and leave her for 15 minutes. This is like her time out for what she's done wrong. If you are consistent with this she will learn where she is supposed to go and not to go in the house.


I take it back, the news story about the shiba inu/coyote mix-up WASN'T the stupidest thing I've heard all day. *facepalm*


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

sassafras said:


> I take it back, the news story about the shiba inu/coyote mix-up WASN'T the stupidest thing I've heard all day. *facepalm*


Absolutely mind boggling, I don't care who said it. OP it's the advice itself that if not number one it's definitely in the top 10 of stupid things I have read on DF and elsewhere. Why not just buy the dog a book on housebreaking for the dog to read, that makes as much sense as the advice you got that you think is great. Then going further that should give you an idea on just how incompetent the Pattison program is. Since when does being on TV make one an expert on anything. This ranks right up there with the Dog Psychic. I remember her telling an owner (on TV) that their dog had just told her it liked cheeseburgers. aaaaaaagggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

carokin said:


> Also, I'm sure there are many Brad Pattison fans out there ....


** looks left **

** looks right **


 ... WHERE ???


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I will wade into the.. Poo... here....

I suggest you read "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson. In there are some extremely elucidating sections on house training a dog and counter to what Mr. Pattison has said. It is researched information (Pattison may have made himself a name but that does not mean he is right.. the exGovernor of Illinois has also made himself a name and he isn't right either and may even go to jail). 

I will logically dissect the Pattison Response and hope you can apply this to your little Chi.



> Dogs have a memory and can be punished even if they aren't caught in the act - which is backed up by the "guilty look" the dog has when you get home...she knows she's done something wrong and if you don't punish her for it she will learn to manipulate you by pretending that she feels bad so you won't do anything about it.


Dogs need to be caught in the act. Humans have a sense of time. Dogs and other animals do not. In fact, it is singularly human to have a sense of time.. and one of those things that makes us different than other animals on the planet. Dogs have a memory but no idea of time frame and so no ability to associate a past act with a current punishment. 

If your dog is "looking guilty" when you come home and find Poop in the house, that look has nothing to do with 'guilt.' The look is because, from the dog's point of view, you randomly come home and abuse the dog. The dog knows not why, but in an attempt to appease your anger, he lowers his ears, head and tucks his tail.. showing you SUBMISSION and hoping this show of submission will mean you do not punish him. 

He is not hoping by showing he "feels bad" that you won't punish. He just knows sometimes you do something mean and a submissive posture would assuage the abuse. Nothing to do with the poop. Everything to do with being abused. 



> There is no need to push her face INTO her poo though.


This is the only accurate statement in this discussion. 



> If you find an accident when you get home, put her on leash and take her over to her mistake. Have about a 30 second to one minute conversation with her (in an even tone) telling her what she did wrong and that she needs to go outside (or use whatever bathroom term you have). Then to reinforce where she is supposed to go you take her on leash to the correct spot and tie her up there and leave her for 15 minutes. This is like her time out for what she's done wrong. If you are consistent with this she will learn where she is supposed to go and not to go in the house.


What the dog sees in this is not that she has been bad or made a mistake. What she knows is you put on her leash and took her somewhere in the house and spoke to her in a tone that may be construed by some dogs as punishment in and of itself. After this she knows you take her outside and abandon her for awhile. That is the sum total. The dog makes NONE of the associations implied.

Last, but not least, repeated abuse (punishment) of a dog around dog poop or pee can lead (and often does lead) to a dog learning that it is unsafe to go to the bathroom in from of humans. These dogs that have been punished will learn that the safe way to poop or pee is to sneak off somewhere away from the people and then do the dirty. These dogs are the ones who leave gifts in another room, under a table or down in the cellar.. and still do not go outside in front of the handler. 

House training is an on going thing. Tons of reinforcement when the dog is going outside is essential. It is something you need to repeat and reinforce a lot. Fact is, I did not trust Atka to be house trained for a full two years after I got her (I got her at 6 months). To this day I tell her she is a good dog for going outside and to this day I will occaisionally stuff a treat in her mouth as she is going to the bathroom. 

And as an aside note to all this here, I had a husband who was abusive in a subversive way. I fired him and got a cat.... 
I had a BF for awhile who was likewise of little use. He repeatedly referred to my good cats as vermin. I got a dog for him. It was a good trade.  I told him as he was leaving the door swung one way for him.. and not to let it hit him on the way out. 

It is my "job" to protect my pets. They rely on me. 

My Friends are Mr. Remington and God. If anyone made a move to abuse any of my pets they would be invited to meet 'em both.....


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

I don't buy that dogs have no sense of time. Mine know what time to wake me, what time their walks are supposed to happen, what time they get fed, what time I get home, they seem to have a sense of time that works just fine and do not like to vary from their schedule. If I am not on time they let me know.

They also have memory of past events. If they didn't learning would be impossible, as would anticipation of future events and when they should occur..

That doesn't mean they have the ability to link a current punishment to a specific past event. I believe they have the capacity, and the ability to do that, but without much means to communicate it clearly between species the chance they actually will make the right connection is slim to none. Possible, but extremely unlikely.

Catching a dog "in the act" requires no such connection to a past event, but can -still- be confused as a punishment for something other than what you intended by your dog.

Best to keep it as simple as possible, correct the dog when caught in the act only, and be smart about it and don't over correct your dog because you can never be fully certain they are making the right connection until after the fact, when you see the results..

Then praise for the proper behavior, and watch for the results, as they can also mistake what they are being praised for as easily as what they are being punished for and praise well after the fact is just as useless.

Personally unless my dogs put teeth on something with intent to harm or something I have to physically stop, their harshest punishment is a simply a deep booming voice, a few "bad dog" and withholding of interaction with me for a bit which is awful for total velcro dogs.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

TxRider said:


> I don't buy that dogs have no sense of time. Mine know what time to wake me, what time their walks are supposed to happen, what time they get fed, what time I get home, they seem to have a sense of time that works just fine and do not like to vary from their schedule. If I am not on time they let me know.


I agree, they have some kind of measure of when things happen (time). Just because they aren't aware of the human-created sub-divisions of the earth's rotation (what we call hours, minutes, seconds) doesn't mean they have no sense of time.




TxRider said:


> I believe they have the capacity, and the ability to do that, but without much means to communicate it clearly between species the chance they actually will make the right connection is slim to none. Possible, but extremely unlikely.


Which, until we can discover such a method, might mean it's best to, for current practical purposes and knowledge, to say they don't for the sake of keeping communication clear and not cluttering up existing methods?

At the least, it's probably most effective/less confusing to state it that way until a repeatable method is developed for communicating such a thing. 

We know it's much more likely for a dog to make the connection we want when we give the consequence as the act is occurring. Obviously, not 100% without-a-doubt-impossible-to-ever-go-awry probability, but higher than, say, waiting 5 hours. So it's probably best, at least for now until methods further evolve, to leave it stated as "catch them in the act, don't punish 5 hours later."


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

It's been my experience that most can't do a properly timed correction if they're standing next to the dog when said dog makes a mistake.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I think I need to clarify this..... by sense of time I meant in a measured sense. My animals (cats especially) KNOW it is time to GO MILK COWS and FEED CATS on way out the door and EVERY blessed day of the year they let me know this at 4:15 (or earlier) in the morning. 

This does not mean they understand that Today is Sunday and the ONE milking I have off every two weeks or that the Cows were Sold in 1996 and we are Not On the Farm anymore. This does not mean they get Standard time or Daylight Savings time. This does not mean they think, "Yesterday I did XXX and tomorrow I will do XXXX." 

It also does not mean they do not remember. 

It means they live in the moment and have no sense of _tense. _ For correction of a dog poo-ing in the house 3 hours later, the dog has to have not only superior associative skills, he also has to have an understanding of _tense; Present, past and future tense!_ Then, on top of that.. we need to communicate a current event (punishment) with a past event (pooping) and that just ain't gonna happen. Dogs are not capable of several things here and we cannot communicate what we mean effectively. 

As WVasko notes, Catching in the act and correcting (no matter what behavior we are training) is often mistimed and we are right there when it is happening!!! We (humanoids) STILL BLOW IT!!!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

wvasko said:


> It's been my experience that most can't do a properly timed correction if they're standing next to the dog when said dog makes a mistake.


... ain't THAT the sad truth 

Just watching people supposedly "correct" their dog, is pretty painful for ME.

ouch ..  it hurts


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> It means they live in the moment and have no sense of _tense. _


Hmm...

If I click - he looks for a treat. The treat hasn't arrived yet, wouldn't that be a sense of future? "The treat is going to come from his pocket and I'm going to watch it until it does!" 

If I start a behavior chain that has a high history of reinforcement, he performs the chain eagerly because he wants the reward. The start of the chain predicts the reward, making him eager. Wouldn't that be a sense of future?

Anticipation - isn't that a sense of the future and past? The dog knows what's to come (future from the current frame) because of the pattern that's repeated before (the past).

We know dogs are aware of the reinforcement history on some level (which is why we make a big deal of it). Wouldn't that be a sense of past? "The last time X happened, Y happened" That's past tense by default (X happened in the past). 

You're right, they don't know the human measurements of time, arbitrary as they are. But I don't know if they have NO capability of tense. They have some that we can use in our practical training (or else operant and classical conditioning can't work as they are based on building patterns - either a choice response or by inducing an emotional response - which requires connection to a prior event, which is the past by definition), but that time reference is far more limited to what we humans can grasp, I would agree, and, by our standards and reference of time, is a very short span. 

To put it crudely grpahically, this is what I think:


Distant Past------------------------=====Present=====------------------Distant Future


For example, Wally probably doesn't remember the first sit he ever did. Heck, I don't remember the first sit he ever did. But by connecting those sits together in a sequence of "near past" events, with time for his brain to assimilate the information (i.e. when he sleeps after training as well as using latent learning) it became a learned association.

Just my view from watching how Wally behaves and responds when he recognizes a pattern and when I follow it, or intentionally change it subtly to get him to wait for the complete signal.


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## peznite (Oct 21, 2009)

Putting dogs face in it's poo or hitting a dog will not stop it from pooing or peeing where you don't want it to. All it will achieve is make it so the dog will only do it's business when you're not home or it thinks you're out of sight.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

[law] You don't get behavior (like pooping in an appropriate area) from punishment. [/thread]


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> [law] You don't get behavior (like pooping in an appropriate area) from punishment. [/thread]


No you don't, owner has to get off butt and take pup/dog outside to the appropriate area and let mother nature take over. It's not brain surgery.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

OP, you're going to do what you feel is best for your situation. I still wonder why you don't keep the dog dish picked up when she's done eating, let her out regularly, and suck it up and accept that dogs get sick sometimes. I had a 70 some pound dog with chronic diarrhea. EVERY night he had a train wreck in the house, for over a year. I wouldn't waste my time shoving his nose in it, nor would I walk him by the mess and discuss with him why Mommy doesn't appreciate him defecating in the house, even though he can't help it. I don't usually compare dogs with people, because they're obviously not the same, but punishing a dog who gets sick and can't hold it is like punishing a child for bed wetting. Even if it's not smashing the kids face in their wet sheets, making a big production out of it isn't going to be worth any of my time. Even telling the dog that going inside is a no no and they have to go "outside" (or whatever other ridiculous crap BP came up with) is a waste of my time and energy. 
Watch some of the videos in the BP thread, and sit back and think long and hard why most of his videos have been pulled from youtube.



peznite said:


> Putting dogs face in it's poo or hitting a dog will not stop it from pooing or peeing where you don't want it to. *All it will achieve is make it so the dog will only do it's business when you're not home or it thinks you're out of sight*.


I knew a puppy who got in trouble for peeing on rugs, so he took to peeing down air conditioning vents that were installed in the floor...never got caught or punished, never left a telltale puddle, so in the dogs' mind, it was OK.


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