# Keystone Puppies is a Puppy Mill!



## Ralpo (Jun 18, 2013)

I had a horrible time with Keystone Puppies. I got a dog and it is sick all the time and I am pretty sure we will end up losing her. How can someone find a good breeder these days?


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## Furfinsnfeathers (Jun 5, 2013)

Ralpo said:


> I had a horrible time with Keystone Puppies. I got a dog and it is sick all the time and I am pretty sure we will end up losing her. How can someone find a good breeder these days?


Can you elaborate about your situation before libeling a person? Did you go there to pick up your puppy? What kind of puppy is it? Did you research Keystone kennels before deciding to buy there? What did the breeder say about the illness? What kind of illness is it that your puppy is suffering from? 

I'm sorry to hear you have a puppy that isn't well.


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## Furfinsnfeathers (Jun 5, 2013)

Google turns up a Keystone Giant schnauzer, Keystone German Shepherds and Keystone gun dogs. There's also a pet hotel by that name. There may be even more Keystones with other breeds, since "Keystone" and PA are synonymous.


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## Furfinsnfeathers (Jun 5, 2013)

The website for "Keystone puppies" looks like a place I probably wouldn't even click on, let alone buy a puppy from. :/ They have 88 breeds to choose from. Is that the place you bought the puppy?


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## BasenjiMomma (Feb 4, 2013)

http://keystonepuppies.com/

If this is the same place you bought from, then yeaaaa..... It looks like a puppy mill. 

IMO I will only buy from a breeder who specializes in ONE breed, and has titled dogs as breeding stock.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Oh gosh....what an awful place. 

1) Don't buy a dog from a "breeder" who you haven't met in person or do not plan on meeting. You should always do a home check, and interact with breeding stock if possible. 
2) Don't buy a dog from a "breeder" who ships their puppies all over the USA, sight unseen. 
3) Don't buy a dog from a "breeder" who breeds that many different breeds and designer mixes. A reputable breeder typically specializes in one or two breeds of dog. These dogs are typical titled, health tested, and temperament tested. 

I'm not sure how someone could look at that website and think, "oh, this sounds like a good idea." I'm sorry that your puppy is sick. Its parents are probably much, much worse off.


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## Galathiel (Apr 11, 2012)

I agree that this has red flags all over it, however, there are many good breeders that ship all over and yes, some of the people see their puppy for the first time at the airport.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

Galathiel said:


> I agree that this has red flags all over it, however, there are many good breeders that ship all over and yes, some of the people see their puppy for the first time at the airport.


yes, it can happen. Is a strictly internet website from which to order their puppies and have them shipped a good sign? not usually.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

How could you not tell that it was a mill just by clicking to the site?


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

blenderpie said:


> How could you not tell that it was a mill just by clicking to the site?


 I was thinking this too, I mean they sell 88 different breeds geez. Nobody selling that many different breeds could actually get all the time the dogs need, just ridiculous  poor little puppies and dogs


EDIT: I got the number of breeds wrong, went back to the website and counted  awful


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Sorry OP, you definitely ordered from a puppy mill and no one here would touch that place with a ten foot pole. 



Kayla_Nicole said:


> 1) Don't buy a dog from a "breeder" who you haven't met in person or do not plan on meeting. You should always do a home check, and interact with breeding stock if possible.
> 2) Don't buy a dog from a "breeder" who ships their puppies all over the USA, sight unseen.


But these are not red flags for a reputable breeder by any means.


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## Furfinsnfeathers (Jun 5, 2013)

I have a feeling our OP isn't coming back. He/she should have stopped in before buying the puppy.


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## Damon'sMom (Aug 2, 2011)

That web site makes me sick.


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## Furfinsnfeathers (Jun 5, 2013)

Damon'sMom said:


> That web site makes me sick.


I quite agree. I can't begin to imagine the conditions if they have 88 breeds and multiple litters of each. It makes me want to cry.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

You'll be happy to know that they have different breeders in different towns, at least, so not all those dogs are in the same place. Doesn't make it better though.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

That is a puppy mill broker website.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

DJEtzel said:


> Sorry OP, you definitely ordered from a puppy mill and no one here would touch that place with a ten foot pole.
> 
> 
> 
> But these are not red flags for a reputable breeder by any means.


Yes, totally agree! My post wasn't totally clear. What I meant to get across was that if the breeder only has a website and only gives you the option to buy you puppy over the internet and have it shipped to you (like this site) definitely a red flag. If they do not allow house visits, also a red flag. 

yes of course you can purchase a puppy from a reputable breeder without a home visit and sometimes can choose to have that puppy shipped.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> Yes, totally agree! My post wasn't totally clear. What I meant to get across was that if the breeder only has a website and only gives you the option to buy you puppy over the internet and have it shipped to you (like this site) definitely a red flag. If they do not allow house visits, also a red flag.
> 
> yes of course you can purchase a puppy from a reputable breeder without a home visit and sometimes can choose to have that puppy shipped.


Oh, that makes much more sense!


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## mcdavis (May 1, 2012)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> Yes, totally agree! My post wasn't totally clear. What I meant to get across was that if the breeder only has a website and only gives you the option to buy you puppy over the internet and have it shipped to you (like this site) definitely a red flag. If they do not allow house visits, also a red flag.
> 
> yes of course you can purchase a puppy from a reputable breeder without a home visit and sometimes can choose to have that puppy shipped.


Agree - when I was recently inquiring about a puppy I contacted a number of breeders, some of whom would have to ship the puppy however I was deliberately vague in asking for information and I only followed up with breeders who asked for lots of information about me and the living conditions for the puppy. However this site has puppy mill all over it and I wouldn't even consider contacting them.
Perhaps the OP should be contacting the Humane Society and getting them to look into the conditions the parents are suffering.


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

Doubt the OP will be back after the responses on this thread.

Probably just made him feel stupid without offering much help :\

Most people wouldn't know thats a puppy mill site.
Hell, I didn't even know about puppy mills until I walked by a puppy store with a group of protestors outside of it.
I always thought puppy stores were legitimate x.x


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I've known about puppy mills since I was 11 or 12 but I've always spent a ridiculous amount of time on dog forums since that age, so that probably accounts for that.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

There really isn't any advice to give, I know at one time we've all probably thought pet stores were legit, I know I used to. But if the puppy was sick when it arrived the only thing we can say is go to the vets to get them checked out. I hope the little guy gets better, but maybe with our responses the OP will learn to be more careful next time, that's all.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Well, a good dog comes from good choices. So finding a good breeder means research far beyond an internet search.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Wow....

Well, firstly, the actual place you bought the puppy wasn't a puppy mill. But you should NEVER buy a puppy from a pet store. They typically come from puppy mills. That place is just absolutely sickening. Another Pet Land, no doubt.

I really hope your puppy makes it... but take this as a lesson learned that if you want a puppy, rescue/adopt or go through a reputable breeder.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

PandaSPUR said:


> Doubt the OP will be back after the responses on this thread.
> 
> Probably just made him feel stupid without offering much help :\
> 
> ...


I always thought so too. I remember always going into the mall and seeing all the cute puppies in the pet store, thinking that was the only place to get puppies besides the newspaper.


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## blenderpie (Oct 5, 2012)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I always thought so too. I remember always going into the mall and seeing all the cute puppies in the pet store, thinking that was the only place to get puppies besides the newspaper.



That's so weird. I don't remember NOT knowing about puppy mills. True, my family members are huge dog people, but if you drove like 45 minutes from my house there were/still are TONS of billboards warning against puppy mills. Lancaster is like super super bad with it. So anyone in the area knows about them (but I don't think many make the connection between puppies in stores and puppy mills.)


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

blenderpie said:


> That's so weird. I don't remember NOT knowing about puppy mills. True, my family members are huge dog people, but if you drove like 45 minutes from my house there were/still are TONS of billboards warning against puppy mills. Lancaster is like super super bad with it. So anyone in the area knows about them (but I don't think many make the connection between puppies in stores and puppy mills.)


Yeah. We had dogs when I was younger, along with other animals, but my parents never told us about it. I don't even know if they acknowledged the fact that pet store = puppy mills, brokers. They weren't that involved with our dogs. So I just didn't know about it. I got a little older, started reading more, coming onto forums like this, and learned the truth. I'm just happy I nor my parents, never bought a dog from a pet store despite our ignorance.


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## Keystone Puppies (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi my name is Shawn Hostetter and I am the owner of Keystone Puppies. I am sorry to hear your puppy is sick, this is the first time this has been brought to my attention. I would greatly appreciate it if you could tell me the breeder you purchased the puppy from and what breed of dog it is so that we can determine if we need to terminate this breeder from our organization. We stand firm against puppy mills and only deal with reputable breeders...so if there is a problem we are unaware of, we need to know so we can help in rectifying the situation. I will be creating a new thread "Keystone Puppies Is A Reputable Organization". I would be happy to answer any questions in that Forum. Thank you.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh man, this is going to be good.


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> Oh man, this is going to be good.


opcorn:...would you like some, too?


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

^^Laughable. Reputable breeders would not deal through someone like this. The only time a broker may be acceptable is when importing an animal.


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## momtolabs (May 27, 2012)

Let me get this straight

You sell mix breed puppies

No parents are health certified(not by a vet but a few for at least labs eic,hips elbows,eyes ect.)
No parents are shown and there a hundred other things I could say and you say your "reputable"? You guys are a puppy mill/byb situation.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Emmett said:


> opcorn:...would you like some, too?


Pick me! Pick me!


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

We need cookies in this thread, not popcorn lol, :wink:


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## Emmett (Feb 9, 2013)

:hungry:


ChaosIsAWeim said:


> We need cookies in this thread, not popcorn lol, :wink:


Mmmmm...cookies. Thanks a lot Chaos, now I'm going to have to go make cookies. :hungry:


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## Tuco (Jun 16, 2013)

Lol this guy from keystone made a thread justifying himself, it was very popcorn worthy, just got closed lol, I'm just happy now all the people who search keystone will see these threads. And of course appreciative of my nightly entertainment


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

After reading their thread, there is one thing that sticks out to me, that I see and hear a lot.
They bred their unhealth tested, mixed breed dog, because they wanted their kids to see a dog give birth.

Right now my shelter has had at least 3 pregnant dogs give birth and raise their puppies in the confine of a shelter. If these dogs had had foster homes, they would've been given the opportunity to be born and raised in a nice home environment.
Why not, instead of adding to the over population problem, foster a pregnant dog? If people want their kids to experience "the miracle of life/birth" why not foster a pregnant animal and given them a real opportunity?

But, can't expect much from someone who peddles puppies from BYBs. People who help sell them are just as bad as the ones breeding them. 
None of my dogs are show quality. I got Diesel out of the trash. And I still wouldn't support a breeder that doesn't show, title or heath test their dogs.
I volunteer at my shelter. There are no less than 40 dogs at a time there. Purebreds, mixed breed dogs. Trained dogs, dogs in near perfect health, puppies, adults, seniors. Beautiful, wonderful dogs. And that's where they'll sit. Because people are breeding and peddling dogs on the internet.


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## Kevin T (Apr 22, 2013)

Keystone Puppies said:


> I will be creating a new thread "Keystone Puppies Is A Reputable Organization". I would be happy to answer any questions in that Forum. Thank you.


Maybe we can get that thread stickied. That would be great.


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

Wow. I cant believe someone so shady would come on here and try convince everyone he was reputable? I laughed my head off when I realized the thread was closed. And I missed out on popcorn. And cookies. You guys suck. LOL. That will teach me to go into town and leave my computer.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I can't believe I missed it! The nerve of that guy!

I agree, if you want your kids to experience the miracle of life, foster a pregnant momma dog or cat. This time of year momma cats are abundant and need our help! If you feel like they don't, just pop into your local shelter and see how overflowing they are with cats.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

For some real laughs, google Shawn Hostetter  Here's one gem I found

When I was a kid we were not dog people. Never had a dog or cat, my parents never owned a dog or cat as adults. So I didn't know about health testing or backyard breeders and such but still had a general idea of what a puppy mill was and that pet store puppies came from bad places. I wouldn't have thought anything bad about a neighbor having a litter of pups from their dogs and keeping them in the house and selling them to friends, but a website listing dozens of breeds to just click and buy would have been very suspicious and raised a red flag.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I missed all the fun. I'd have provided some wine with the popcorn & cookies, too.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

It also makes you think.....what reputable, legitimate breeder needs a website like his in order to sell their puppies? yeah, probably none. Nice try though, Shawn. I'm sad I totally missed his thread before it got locked


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Honestly... reputable breeders already have a website advertising them... it's called the breed club site.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

ireth0 said:


> Honestly... reputable breeders already have a website advertising them... it's called the breed club site.


Pretty much.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Wow, all i can say is wow....he didn't answer any of your questions he just kept saying the same thing and ignoring most of your questions what a JA. How could you guys be so mean to him, you bullies?!?!?!? LOL anyway it was a very interesting thread, I kinda was hoping he would try to answer some of your questions but it was too much to hope for. Wish I could've gotten some of those cookies all I got when I visited my reputable breeder was coffee (and I didn't even have any because I hate coffee *josh got some though and was very happy*)


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I want to know how that website screens the homes of potential puppy buyers. Or do they just sell to the first nice person who pays them?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Also to Shell; so he had a similar website before? Uh huh... totally sounds legit now...

EDIT* Nope! Apparently that website is still up and running too! Oh good!

Edit again* I'm on a roll here, this other site only has a 30 day health guarantee.

Last edit I promise* In their FAQ section they say that they are not a puppy mill. You know, when you have to answer that as an FAQ, maybe you should reconsider your business practices...


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

I have always loved dogs and would always go into puppy stores to look at the cute puppies and kittens. I remember feeling bad for them because of the small cages they got and wanted to work with them. I wanted to work in a pet store and a woman came up to my mother and basically told her that I shouldn't ever work there because they come from puppy mills and how misinformed the employees are. I've heard of puppy mills before, but never did I think they came to pet stores. 

I feel bad for the OP getting a dog from there; I, too, was going to reply to that thred. From their website, they sounded like nice people who really want the best for the dogs, but they also have to understand that endorsing a BYB or puppy mills are a bad thing and that the dogs don't have a quality life before being shipped or sold to a gullible person. That those people don't care about dogs and just want the money; also he didn't answer any of your questions. Poor guy tried so hard to convince us, I almost feel bad for him. 

I think what Crantastic said in the other thread says it all: You made the mistake of registering for a forum full of educated dog owners, many of whom are responsible breeders. Your arguments won't sway people here. 
^He tried. He failed.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

ireth0 said:


> Also to Shell; so he had a similar website before? Uh huh... totally sounds legit now...
> 
> EDIT* Nope! Apparently that website is still up and running too! Oh good!
> 
> ...


The other press release from Greenfield on that site is interesting too, since it is about a "rare" blue pit bull puppy. It is bad some kid's puppy got stolen, but calling blue pits rare is a classic move to sell them for more money when really they are a dime a dozen in shelters and definitely not rare since they suffer from massive overbreeding.

Scary that they are selling dogs like Presas over the net to anyone with a credit card. I'm not even sure I'd be confident to raise a Presa (especially one from a bad breeder) so I'd bet the type of people that would buy one on a site like this would not be safe and suitable owners. 

Just google some of the breeder's names for the pups advertised there and you'll find link after link from legit sources detailing some very interesting background information. The variety of creative registries is interesting too: ACA, ACHC (American Canine Hybrid Club) for example

I found this article for that mentions several breeders in that area of the country with last names that match several of those advertising on the Greenfield site. Large numbers of dogs, no surprise there


> In the third case, the board neither granted nor denied a similar request by Daniel F. Stoltzfus for a larger kennel on an even smaller property. Stoltzfus testified that he began his operation in 2002 with about 30 dogs, and now has 110 adult breeding females and 23 males. He raises Maltese, Yorkie, Chihuahua, Shih-Tzu and Bichon Frise puppies. His K5 license allows more than 250 dogs per year on 2.8 acres at 255 School Lane Road.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Shell said:


> The other press release from Greenfield on that site is interesting too, since it is about a "rare" blue pit bull puppy. It is bad some kid's puppy got stolen, but calling blue pits rare is a classic move to sell them for more money when really they are a dime a dozen in shelters and definitely not rare since they suffer from massive overbreeding.
> 
> Scary that they are selling dogs like Presas over the net to anyone with a credit card. I'm not even sure I'd be confident to raise a Presa (especially one from a bad breeder) so I'd bet the type of people that would buy one on a site like this would not be safe and suitable owners.
> 
> Just google some of the breeder's names for the pups advertised there and you'll find link after link from legit sources detailing some very interesting background information. The variety of creative registries is interesting too: ACA, ACHC (American Canine Hybrid Club) for example


I saw that link too and I was like *facesmack* (because blue=rare?) anyway very interesting ACHA? huh canine hybrid club sounds like a school club


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## Kevin T (Apr 22, 2013)

mscici said:


> Keystone is a puppy broker. In other words, the Mill is the manufacturer and wholesaler, this is the Costco or warehouse retailer…


Good analogy. Costco has a much better return policy, though.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

What is a cavachon?


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

@Juliemule - Cavalier King Charles Spaniel mixed with a Bichon

It kills me to see all the cav mixes. You _know_ those mixed breeders aren't screening for all the major genetic issues in cavaliers if, hell, half the purebred cavalier breeders aren't. 

I'm totally bummed I missed the other thread, guys.


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## Gogoclips (Apr 27, 2013)

I only caught the beginning of that thread, and was looking forward to what he had to say to some of those questions! I'm just glad he's not around anymore to be spreading more lies here. I am surprised at how ignorant people in general are about puppy mills. I'd heard about them a long time ago, before I moved here to the states and was around dogs. Before then, I thought the petstores were the only places you could get puppies from. And shelters. Now, 10 years later, people around me still have no clue. I have a close friend who has a puppy store yorkie, and can't figure out why, at age 3, he's still not potty trained. My HUSBAND, didn't even know the horrors of puppy mills (had heard about them, but didn't know what they were exactly), until we were doing the research prior to getting Kidogo. We ended up watching the puppy mill episode of Dog Whisperer together, then he did more reading. 

My MIL, on the other hand, is on the complete other side of the spectrum. She can't imagine why you'd pay >$300 for a dog and thinks all breeders are running scams. We had a nightmare, trying to explain getting Kidogo from a breeder. She honestly thought we were being cheated of our money. Gah.


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## juliemule (Dec 10, 2011)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> @Juliemule - Cavalier King Charles Spaniel mixed with a Bichon
> 
> It kills me to see all the cav mixes. You _know_ those mixed breeders aren't screening for all the major genetic issues in cavaliers if, hell, half the purebred cavalier breeders aren't.
> I'm totally bummed I missed the other thread, guys.


Gotcha. And agreed.


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## Kevin T (Apr 22, 2013)

juliemule said:


> What is a cavachon?


Isn't this a type of small pickle?


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Kevin T said:


> Isn't this a type of small pickle?


You're thinking of cornichons.

Unfortunately, PA isn't a happy place for many dogs.


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## Kevin T (Apr 22, 2013)

cookieface said:


> You're thinking of cornichons.


Thanks, cookieface, I know. I couldn't find the "tongue in cheek" emoticon.


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

cookieface said:


> Unfortunately, PA isn't a happy place for many dogs.


Maybe it's just because half my family lives there, so I'm pretty familiar with the state, but as soon as I saw "Keystone" and "Lancaster" my mind went right to "puppy mill," before I even saw the website, which only confirmed the suspicion. I wouldn't buy a dog out of PA, unless I'd been to meet the breeder, check out the facility, and see the parents myself.



Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> @Juliemule - Cavalier King Charles Spaniel mixed with a Bichon
> 
> It kills me to see all the cav mixes. You _know_ those mixed breeders aren't screening for all the major genetic issues in cavaliers if, hell, half the purebred cavalier breeders aren't.


My boss has one. It's a cute little thing, but in the last year has started cropping up with all kinds of medical issues. Poor dog is only 3 or 4, but has already spent almost a week this year in the vet hospital.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

Kevin T said:


> Thanks, cookieface, I know. I couldn't find the "tongue in cheek" emoticon.


Oops. :redface:


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

DaisyDC said:


> Maybe it's just because half my family lives there, so I'm pretty familiar with the state, but as soon as I saw "Keystone" and "Lancaster" my mind went right to "puppy mill," before I even saw the website, which only confirmed the suspicion. I wouldn't buy a dog out of PA, unless I'd been to meet the breeder, check out the facility, and see the parents myself.


Yeah, I live in PA and am always suspicious of breeders from Amish country. I think there was legislation passed a few years ago that placed greater restrictions on breeders, but I'm not sure if it's been enforced.

That said, there are some great breeders in PA. For example, the ones who spent 3 hours talking to me about standard poodles and recommending (other) breeders.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

DaisyDC said:


> Maybe it's just because half my family lives there, so I'm pretty familiar with the state, but as soon as I saw "Keystone" and "Lancaster" my mind went right to "puppy mill," before I even saw the website, which only confirmed the suspicion. I wouldn't buy a dog out of PA, unless I'd been to meet the breeder, check out the facility, and see the parents myself.


 I just wanted to say my breeder is PA, I went and visited her and she and her dogs are amazing  but I'm sure this is a rare case


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

The problem with PA (and OH, where I live) isn't the lack of great breeders. I'm sure there are plenty. The problem is the huge number of puppy mills, largely run by Amish communities, unfortunately.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

cookieface said:


> Yeah, I live in PA and am always suspicious of breeders from Amish country. I think there was legislation passed a few years ago that placed greater restrictions on breeders, but I'm not sure if it's been enforced.
> 
> That said, there are some great breeders in PA. For example, the ones who spent 3 hours talking to me about standard poodles and recommending (other) breeders.



This. And yeah, sadly, puppy mills are quite common in Amish country.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

I just noticed they have a facebook page...


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Sorry for the doublepost but I also just noticed that only -some- of the puppies on their site have the 1 year guarantee that he was talking about. So, what your puppy's health guarantee is varies from puppy to puppy.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Guys he started another thread


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## PandaSPUR (Mar 5, 2013)

kcomstoc said:


> Guys he started another thread


I have a feeling he's doing it just to get better google results. Afterall, in google only the title of a thread and a few snippets of text are shown in the results.

So now we have two thread titles praising a puppy mill broker.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

PandaSPUR said:


> I have a feeling he's doing it just to get better google results. Afterall, in google only the title of a thread a few snippets of text are shown in the results.
> 
> So now we have two thread titles praising a puppy mill broker.


 Didn't think of that  ugh


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## DaisyDC (Feb 24, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> The problem with PA (and OH, where I live) isn't the lack of great breeders. I'm sure there are plenty. The problem is the huge number of puppy mills, largely run by Amish communities, unfortunately.


Yes, which is why I wouldn't buy without visiting and reassuring myself of what I was getting. There are good breeders and bad everywhere, but without going and visiting, and seeing for yourself, someone who tries to talk a good game over the internet may not be selling you what you end up getting.


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

What does PA stand for?


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

voodookitten said:


> What does PA stand for?


The state of Pennsylvania. OH is Ohio.


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## voodookitten (Nov 25, 2012)

Thanks  I'm guessing its known for its puppy mills then.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yep, just do a search for "Amish puppy mills" and you'll find tons of info. These are the people supplying a lot of pet stores and Internet sites.


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