# Front and center! Or...a bit forward? Too far back?



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Check it out! A long overdue thread just about FRONTS! How does a dog's front affect how it moves? Jumps? Runs? Holds up under physical stress?

Why don't we do some evaluating and find out! And remember, fronts are not just about shoulders, but ribbing, underline, and muscling!

I suggest if you have multiple pics, to post at least two of your dog, to try and get an accurate representation of their front. I would suggest using an adult dog if you can, as puppies change so much.

Strauss


















Mirada:


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Check it out! A long overdue thread just about FRONTS! How does a dog's front affect how it moves? Jumps? Runs? Holds up under physical stress?
> 
> Why don't we do some evaluating and find out! And remember, fronts are not just about shoulders, but ribbing, underline, and muscling!
> 
> I suggest if you have multiple pics, to post at least two of your dog, to try and get an accurate representation of their front. I would suggest using an adult dog if you can, as puppies change so much.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I find these types of discussions so interesting but my knowledge is lacking. I'll be reading with great interest.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

The (horrible specimen) paps:

Tag: 


















Dude:


















Not bad for a guy who's going to be 10 years young in 2 weeks, eh?


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## Pai (Apr 23, 2008)

Here are the two best side shots I have of Icesis:


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Kechara (only have one proper side shot of her)









Hawkeye

















And just for old times sake, here's one of Jack (he's 14 in this photo)


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Can mixed breeds play too, I hope? These are the best side views I could find...

Pip


















Maisy


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Horrible specimen? Tag's front is GREAT! Dude's ain't half bad either, his front looks great from the front! I'd have never of guessed he's 10!

The Gipper:








Gatsby's front is really straight. Those little bits of tape are roughly where the ends of bones lay. You can see he has very little shoulder lay back. If you made an angle with a horizontal line it's about 60*. Roughly 45* is considered optimal in most breeds. Then from there you can see his upper arm goes almost straight done. You want 45* optimally here too, in most breeds. Terriers are generally straighter in the front, it's easier to dig that way, but Gatsby is straight enough that I don't feel comfortable asking him to be competitive in agility. Landing from jumps is just too stressful on his body because he doesn't have the ability to absorb the shock.

Other than the bones of the arm, his chest it a problem. You can't see it in this picture, but he's very narrow in breadth, although his ribspring really isn't too bad. He has zero forechest whatsoever, his point of shoulder is actually in front of his prosternum. You can feel it, but you can't grab it. Because he has so little chest and prosternum, there isn't much surface area for muscles to attach to. His chest doesn't come down to the crook of his elbow either, it's too shallow. That means he has less room for his lungs to expand. He's got nice tight elbows though.

Marsh: 








Marsh's front is good. It could be a little better, but IMO it's pretty good especially for the breed. I like his forechest. Could use a little more but he's got enough. I don't know him well enough to be more definitive than that, but you can see he has his legs more under him than Gatsby. His legs are supporting his ribcage, not his neck. He looks great from the front, perfectly straight with good breadth of chest. He could maybe use a smidge more bone to be more correct for the breed, but I favor a lighter framed dog for agility and I feel he has enough bone for his size. He could use a hair more length of leg, but after that I would scale him up proportionally as he is on the very bottom edge of standard height.


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## waterbaby (Jan 20, 2009)

Ok so we have a bunch of photos, can someone start analyzing? 

I'll have to see if I can get one of the Sophinator. I'm always super paranoid about her structure because I work her hard and I know I have no grasp of what's good and what's wretched.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

ERIN GOT TO MEET MARSH!?!?!??! I'm jealous!

That's right, I recognize Erin's living room.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Xeph said:


> ERIN GOT TO MEET MARSH!?!?!??! I'm jealous!
> 
> That's right, I recognize Erin's living room.


Hahahah yeah! I forgot, I went up after I got my new camera and she showed me how to use it. That picture was part way through the lesson, it's a little over exposed.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc301/celeaussie/IMG_2004.jpg

Alice standing still. She has nice layback (per Chris Zink) but a short upper arm. Doesn't converge at a trot. But she's fast at a run
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc301/celeaussie/triockh_0001.jpg
http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc301/celeaussie/triockh_0015.jpg


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

waterbaby said:


> Ok so we have a bunch of photos, can someone start analyzing?
> 
> I'll have to see if I can get one of the Sophinator. I'm always super paranoid about her structure because I work her hard and I know I have no grasp of what's good and what's wretched.


Yeah, I agree. I don't do well analyzing fronts! 
BTW I work Tag pretty hard. I have no clue what's good and what's bad about him, but I know he doesn't look like a papillon in a lot of ways. So far he's doing well, I watch for any signs of hesitation (jumping etc) and any signs of lameness.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

These webpages have a lot of good information about evaluating structure, with photos and diagrams. Both are Aussie websites, which IMO is good because they have kind of a "general" structure as a breed. IE they don't have breed specific qualities such as the angulation of a GSD, or the straighter front of some terriers that would mean what is good for them isn't actually correct for many other breeds. You still have to look at your own breeds standard to find out if they should be square, long, etc but this gives you a start on evaluating fronts, rears, movement, etc

http://qualityaussies.webs.com/structureandmovement.htm

http://www.shalakoaussies.com/BreedStandard_Main.html


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## MonicaBH (Jul 5, 2008)

I'll play. 

Here are some shots of Clyde that I used when I applied for his AKC PAL.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Yeah, I agree. I don't do well analyzing fronts!
> BTW I work Tag pretty hard. I have no clue what's good and what's bad about him, but I know he doesn't look like a papillon in a lot of ways. So far he's doing well, I watch for any signs of hesitation (jumping etc) and any signs of lameness.


Tag is so adorably lanky! I love him. 

This is best I can find at the moment. I'll have to get some of the others.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

I'll play, too! :biggrin1: Sorry these pictures aren't the best, but here's Basil!


























I'm not very good at critiquing a dog's structure, but I'll give it a go. He chest does come past the point of shoulder a ways. I'm not sure how you're supposed to measure the angle of the shoulder and upper arm, but it's best if it's around 90 degrees, right? Basil's shoulder and upper arm have a little less angulation I believe, maybe 100 degrees? His upper arm and forearm have even less angulation than his shoulder and upper arm. I know the "front view" picture is really bad, lol. But I'm pretty sure his legs go straight down (They're not like bowed in), and his toes pretty much point forward. Anyone else want to offer their own critique?


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Nargle said:


> I'm not very good at critiquing a dog's structure, but I'll give it a go. He chest does come past the point of shoulder a ways. I'm not sure how you're supposed to measure the angle of the shoulder and upper arm, but it's best if it's around 90 degrees, right? Basil's shoulder and upper arm have a little less angulation I believe, maybe 100 degrees? His upper arm and forearm have even less angulation than his shoulder and upper arm. I know the "front view" picture is really bad, lol. But I'm pretty sure his legs go straight down (They're not like bowed in), and his toes pretty much point forward. Anyone else want to offer their own critique?


A lot of breed standards mention a 90 degree angle to the shoulder, but I think recent knowledge is that is an impossible angle for a dog.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> Tag is so adorably lanky! I love him.
> 
> This is best I can find at the moment. I'll have to get some of the others.


Which dog is that?
Xeph said Tag looked like a Kooiker xD And I agree. He's tall, leggy, and has the same colorings you see in Kooikers. 
One thing I do notice about Dudes front (that I do not like) is how his elbows "stick out" from his sides. I stacked him (erm...kinda) for the pictures, but if he stands naturally his front is "wide" and his narrow is "rear". (Meaning, his rear feet are close together and his front feet are wide apart, giving him the appearance of a bull dog). When viewed from the top, he looks somewhat triangular-ish. I don't doubt that with two bad kneecaps, his tends to shift his weight onto his front which is causing his elbows to break down over time.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

So I have no idea what I'm doing, really, but I guess I think Pip looks pretty good and Maisy looks too straight in the front legs?


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

Manero and Cooper have beautiful fronts.

Manero:









This is in May 2007, about a week after he finished his CH.









Same photo shoot as above.









Best of Breed, June/July 2006. (I should have had his head up more)

I have to dig around for good ones on Cooper's front. Since he's not a show dog, most of my pictures of him are snapshots.

but this one is a head-on shot:


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Which dog is that?
> Xeph said Tag looked like a Kooiker xD And I agree. He's tall, leggy, and has the same colorings you see in Kooikers.
> One thing I do notice about Dudes front (that I do not like) is how his elbows "stick out" from his sides. I stacked him (erm...kinda) for the pictures, but if he stands naturally his front is "wide" and his narrow is "rear". (Meaning, his rear feet are close together and his front feet are wide apart, giving him the appearance of a bull dog). When viewed from the top, he looks somewhat triangular-ish. I don't doubt that with two bad kneecaps, his tends to shift his weight onto his front which is causing his elbows to break down over time.


That's Bernard.  He's grown a bit since then though.

Mine HATE stacking. I get really wonky stacks if I try to handle them into it.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> That's Bernard.  He's grown a bit since then though.
> 
> Mine HATE stacking. I get really wonky stacks if I try to handle them into it.


Auz manages to curl himself up into a 2x2 inch cube if I try to hand stack him. I gave up. x.x If something catches his eye and he free-stacks himself, he looks splendid. Go figure :/


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> That's Bernard.  He's grown a bit since then though.
> 
> Mine HATE stacking. I get really wonky stacks if I try to handle them into it.


Basil is like that, too! I've tried stacking him on many occasions, and he's always fidgeting around. That first picture of Basil I took after he saw a squirrel and ran up to the sliding glass door. That's the only way I can catch him sort of "free-stacking" and looking natural, lol!


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## Sighthounds4me (Nov 7, 2010)

THIS is the one of Cooper I was looking for:










(Just don't look at his rear or his topline!)


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

These probably aren't the best but they are about all I have uploaded

Kira: 

























(and this is how she won her first major)

BB:

I know you said no puppies but I just had to put these first, and she is a puppy still anyways (only a year old)


















I will have to find the rest and upload them because apparently I haven't lol.

Here is JC, thought I add a different kind of front.



















Bout the only thing Jay needs is a little more width of jaw, he has a great upturn and layback, a nice broad chest, nice strong front to support his weight. I would also like to see a little less fur, you can't see it but a little longer fur than I would like but we weren't really talking about coat. I would like a smaller nose roll, but it's better than no nose roll. Going back to coat for a sec, I wish he had stayed a darker brindle.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

First pic is closest to a side shot I could get (sorry about the head turn!)
Second shot is Cracker with Cody (RIP) and Lula Pup...to show Cracker's breadth of chest

A "dog show" person I know said Cracker's hind was nice but her shoulders were too far forward and not quite enough angle in the layback. She also has a slight curve in her front left lower leg so she's a great jumper (hind) but not a great lander (front)


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Here's Wally's I sent in for his PAL/ILP registration


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

I've wanted to post here ever since I saw the thread, but just got around to taking some pictures. I'd love to hear any comments about Buffy's structure, since I know absolutely nothing about it. To me she looks like she has a pretty powerful chest (and a compact but muscular body overall). I know the pics aren't the best either - she was very unsure about why I was letting her lick peanut butter off the dishwasher.














































And I know you said no puppies, but she really hasn't changed much at all in 3-4 months now.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Melaka, Buffy is ADORABLE! I didn't realize how cute she was without seeing a bigger picture! In my non-expert opinion, I think she looks a little straight-ish in her front legs, but I think her front legs look to be positioned nicely on her, not too far forward or too far back. But then again I barely know what I'm talking about, lol! 

KBLover, Wally is adorable! I love how his front legs are shorter than his back legs, it gives him a unique silhouette! Not sure if I can figure out where his bones are under all of that cottony fluff, though, lol!


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Age and sex of the dog are also factors


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## melaka (Mar 31, 2010)

Nargle said:


> Melaka, Buffy is ADORABLE! I didn't realize how cute she was without seeing a bigger picture! In my non-expert opinion, I think she looks a little straight-ish in her front legs, but I think her front legs look to be positioned nicely on her, not too far forward or too far back. But then again I barely know what I'm talking about, lol!


Aw thanks and thanks for the comments. I was afraid I killed the thread.


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

DSC_4110_1 by blahbloo, on Flickr


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