# Raw Feeding concerns



## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

hi, my name is Re and i am obsessed with the health and welfare of my dogs, so i'm jumping into raw, having read about it for way too long....

my dogs weigh 40 lbs....( a little buxom -- should be around 36 lbs...for which we can blame me and wellness super five mix) and the pug, who weighs 18 perfect pounds.

i am so new to this....and i am an avid poop watcher, which is my indication they are healthy...

we started on saturday with raw.

i have no clue what i'm doing....but we do have charts on the fridge and right now, they are eating chicken and will continue doing that for about two weeks as they transition off of kibble.

i still use missing link, which i used for their copious shedding...secondary gain being their coats are like silk....

but my pug is having a problem eating bones....nothing wrong with his teeth...he is a smashed face dog....

my other dog is a corgi/red heeler/ lab/ whatever mix...and hasn't quite figured out that she now has to work for food..

so, i am going to try giving them chicken breasts in the morning and cut up chicken in the evening....the reason i'm cutting up the chicken, at least for the pug...is he tried to swallow a piece around 2 and a 1/2 inches in diameter...whole.

i also read in way too many places that chicken wings and backs and chicken necks are a no no...although i think they would be perfect for the pug....but he is an inhaler of food, so maybe not. 

reading these posts have been awesome.....i'm very obsessed with giving just the right amount and it's been such a relief to let the poop and their body size be my guide.


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## doggybytes (Mar 1, 2010)

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MagicRe,

I don't give my dogs (40lb & 55lb) chicken wings as they are big enough for them to inhale, which _could_ lead to choking. For a smaller dog, like your Pug, size appropriate raw meaty bone such as wings, legs and necks should be fine.

Another thing some dogs do is chew it up enough to move the RMB into their esophagus which is quite elastic (Zeus does this with turkey necks), to sort of gauge if it needs more chewing to get it down. Sometimes he'll decide it's too big and regurgitate it and work at it some more. I guess that might sound scary to some people, but I always supervise at feeding time anyway.

It's funny to hear people say, that they want their dog to eat slower, that he "just wolfs it down", that's a natural thing for dogs to do, to rip off big pieces of meat and bone and get it down as quickly as possible.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

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doggybytes said:


> MagicRe,
> 
> I don't give my dogs (40lb & 55lb) chicken wings as they are big enough for them to inhale, which _could_ lead to choking. For a smaller dog, like your Pug, size appropriate raw meaty bone such as wings, legs and necks should be fine.
> 
> ...


thank you for the input. here's the thing and i'm not trying to be argumentative at all. i am so new to this and i find it just fascinating. i can't read enough about it and i wish they were used to it already, so i can stop worrying that i'm killing them. LOL

there are three million opinions out there about wings, backs, and necks for dogs...even little dogs.

one person even advised that i take an entire chicken, throw it on the floor and let the dog (pug) have at it. when i think he's had enough, put the rest uncovered in the fridge, as covering it encourages moisture, which encourages bacteria...which i do agree with.

my pug tried to inhale a thigh. so a wing would fly down his gullet. i don't say this lightly and if expecting them to chew is not realistic, i'm ready to roll that way. i thought the idea was to get them to get the tartar off their teeth....but okay....

i'm okay with regurgitation.....i examine poo.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

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doggybytes said:


> Chicken Back
> Chicken Neck
> Chicken Quarters
> Turkey Back
> ...


This isn't balanced.

Why are you not feeding meat? The ratio is 80-10-10. And you need way more variety. This diet raises all kinds of red flags in my head. Where us the zinc and iron? Where are your b vitamins? How can your digs kidneys possibly cope with that much extra calcium flushing their bloodstream?


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

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ok, so even with not necessarily doing it right, we went from nicely formed stool to squirts.

what am i not doing that i should be doing?


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## doggybytes (Mar 1, 2010)

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DobManiac said:


> This isn't balanced.
> 
> Why are you not feeding meat? The ratio is 80-10-10. And you need way more variety. This diet raises all kinds of red flags in my head. Where us the zinc and iron? Where are your b vitamins? How can your digs kidneys possibly cope with that much extra calcium flushing their bloodstream?


"_The term 'complete and balanced' has been imported into discussions on animal diets, but tends to be seriously misused - instead of food types the chemical constituents, carbohydrates, proteins, etc are emphasised._" - Tom Lonsdale

In Canada . . . all of the foods mentioned above have meat on them, with the exception of the eggs.

Ratios are a man/woman made notion. Thankfully for us, Mother Nature has configured raw meaty bones and offal to supply all the nutrients that our domestic carnivores require - when supplied in variety.

Most meats (chicken, turkey, beef, buffalo, fish etc) contain B Vitamins, iron and zinc, in _ratios_ as seen fit by Mother Nature.

"Extra calcium" might be an issue if someone were feeding bone exclusive of meat (which I'm quite obviously not), but rather is usually caused by certain health issues such as Addison's Disease, a malfunctioning parathyroid gland, kidney failure etc.

I started off my original post by saying that I rarely feed my dogs the same thing two days in a row. The very reason I do this is to provide them with variety for their palate's, as well as to provide an ever changing cascade of nutrients (amino acids, vitamins, minerals etc), as the canine digestive system has evolved to assimilate.

The list of food items I listed is not exhaustive or definitve. Once in a while I'll pick up some cornish game hens (whole) which makes a great meal for them or some whole trout now and then. I'm constantly mixing things up and trying to think of new foods to intorduce them to.

But how do I know I have it right? My dogs have healthy skin, coats, teeth, and energy levels. 

Due to relocation last year I was separated from my Border Collie (F, 14 1/2 years old) for 6 weeks. When we were finally reunited, she was limping badly, not as alert as she used to be, which I put down to her age. 

For the 6 weeks we were apart, she was being fed Medi-Cal (kibble garbage). I immediately switched her back to raw. She he no longer limps (probably due to naturally occurring glucosamine/chondroiton in RMBs) and she's much more alert - to the point that some people think she's half her age. She even beats my pit bull out to the kitchen to eat in the morning, and she still bounces of the walls when she knows we're going out to the park or for walks.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

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doggybytes said:


> "_The term 'complete and balanced' has been imported into discussions on animal diets, but tends to be seriously misused - instead of food types the chemical constituents, carbohydrates, proteins, etc are emphasised._" - Tom Lonsdale


I could be wrong since I have never read his books, but I didnt' think Tom Lonsdale reccomend the amount of bone you feed our dogs.



doggybytes said:


> In Canada . . . all of the foods mentioned above have meat on them, with the exception of the eggs.
> 
> Ratios are a man/woman made notion. Thankfully for us, Mother Nature has configured raw meaty bones and offal to supply all the nutrients that our domestic carnivores require - when supplied in variety.
> 
> Most meats (chicken, turkey, beef, buffalo, fish etc) contain B Vitamins, iron and zinc, in _ratios_ as seen fit by Mother Nature.


Your first post didn't mention a great deal of the variety your talking about now. In fact the only red meat you listed was beef heart, which you said you only feed in small amounts. I completely agree with variety, but you arent supplying it the way you think you are. 

As far as ratios, all meats have a different nutrional profile. And poultry happens to be low in zinc, iron, and b vitamins among other things. Honestly, of all meats we feed or dogs poultry is the least nutritious. But chicken is cheap and easy to find. And you are limiting that nutrition even more by using too much bone in the diet. 

Is there a reason your against feeding extra meat and less bone? I understand that there is meat on chicken parts such as necks and backs, but its not much. 

There are reasons why RAW feeders suggest to feed minimal amounts of bone. And there are reasons why RAW feeders suggest to feed as much diversity as possible, and to concentrate the bulk of your dogs diet on as much read meat as you can. 

I would suggest you read Ultimate Diet- Natural Nutrition by Kathy Schultze. The book is very eye opening when it comes to raw and cooked diets. It shows why we can't just leave it all to chance, and hope it works out. There is also an excel spreadsheet online somewhere that is made for prey model diets using the AAFCO nutritional paramters. You put in your dogs weight and activity level and the spreedsheet gives you a break down of your dogs nutritent requirements. 

I lost my copy, but it really needs to be added onto this sticky anyway. Can someone post that link?


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## doggybytes (Mar 1, 2010)

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DobManiac

Lonsdale recommends bone in every meal in his Work Wonders:Feed Your Dog Raw Meaty Bones, and mostly completely edible bones. He does recommend beef ribs as a red meat option, I may add those in hear and there. 

He also recommends a lot of "stuff" that either isn't available here, or is unrealistic for my situation such as, lamb necks, pig heads, whole rabbit carcass etc subject to availability.

There are really two main ideologies.

1. Lonsdale's raw meaty bone approach, with bone having apart in most meals, for the periodontal benefits and stool benefits among other things. His approach also has very little in the way of vegetable matter added to the diet, but feels that adding some here and there will do no harm and may be beneficial.

2. Ian Billinghurt's BARF model contains less bone and much more in the way of vegetables. In my opinion, since Billinghurst has a commecial product to sell, it makes a lot more sense to grind his products for ease of shipping and packaging. I'm not sure how that would work with a pigs head. :/

Interestingly Lonsdale doesn't like the term "prey model" and he doesn't care much for Billinghurst either, which is evident in his books and newsletters.

Raw feeding is a hot topic even amongst raw feeders, it's almost like trying to debate religion or politics. 

I've had over 20 years of experience in human nutrition which I only state to get the point across that I think in terms of what makes nutritional sense - to me. Lonsdale's approach makes sense to me and in fact makes the most sense to me, so his school of thought is the one I subscribe to.

Don't get me started on AAFCO! (_check out their requirements for feeding trials_).

I am however always willing to learn new things and I appreciate your mentioning Ultimate Diet- Natural Nutrition, I'll check it out.

P.S. Today's meal was bone free - buffalo tripe. Nasty, nasty stuff! :/


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## doggybytes (Mar 1, 2010)

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Poo FAQ (LOL) from Tom Lonsdale's website.

Dog poo

Q. My dog strains to pass his poo now that I feed him raw bones.

A. Yes, that's common and normal.
_________________________________________________________________

Q. My dog's poo turns white and hard after a couple of days in the sun.

A. Yes, that's to be expected because 'natural' dog poo is mostly powdered bone.
_________________________________________________________________

Q. My vet says my dog will become constipated if fed on raw bones.

A. Feed meaty raw bones in large pieces and he should be fine.

Bones in small pieces, for instance chicken necks, or bones without much meat on them lead to firmer faeces and/or impaction of the bowel.

(Chicken necks are good for small dogs and cat - but not large dogs, they tend to swallow chicken necks without sufficient prior chewing.)


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## doggybytes (Mar 1, 2010)

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DobManiac said:


> Your first post didn't mention a great deal of the variety your talking about now. In fact the only red meat you listed was beef heart, which you said you only feed in small amounts.


Actually I listed beef liver, kidney & heart, and said that I feed it a couple of times per week as snacks. Snacks meaning they still get their regular daily meal and then some organ meat (usually half a package each) later in the day.

I did buy some meaty beef ribs today which they have both been going to town on for the last half hour or so. I love watching them eat. =),


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## Mesasdad (Mar 5, 2010)

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I am new to being a raw food diet feeder. I have read that the average daily intake should be 2% of body weight. Is that all meat or is that with rice added? Like I said I'm new so please be patient with me but what are the benefits between raw meat and pan fried without any butter and all the juices go into the meal? We recently started our dog on a raw diet but I did cook up the meat to rare. It does make sense to feed them whole foods instead of all the processed food, how am i sure she is getting all the vitamins she should be getting? Any advise would be very much appreciated. Thank you all.


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## Mesasdad (Mar 5, 2010)

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For bones can I just give her a raw chicken leg and let her eat it bone and all?


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## phoebespeople (May 27, 2009)

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Mesasdad said:


> For bones can I just give her a raw chicken leg and let her eat it bone and all?


Eureka! Yes! You got it! That is the essence if RAW feeding. "Just give her a RAW chicken leg and let her eat it bone and all". I couldn't have said it better myself.

A chicken leg is an RMB, a raw meaty bone. It's bone, covered with meat. Maybe about 75% meat, 25% bone approx. depending on the chicken. Bone is light and meat is heavy, so just make your best guess, you'll be close enough. Take that into consideration when trying to get 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ (half of that liver). A whole chicken is about 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs, so that is ideal. 

When Phoebe eats chicken legs, she just tenderizes them, breaks the bone in a few places, and swallows it almost whole. It digests completely in about 9 hours, no problem, nice and easy.

If you want "teeth cleaning bones" or "recreational bones" beef or pork ribs with just a little meat left on them are good. Most dogs can crumble, crunch, or break them into small chunks they can swallow. Beef marrow bones are good for this as well, but most dogs will just suck the marrow out of them, get all the stringy bits off the outside, and then leave them.


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

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MagicRe said:


> ok, so even with not necessarily doing it right, we went from nicely formed stool to squirts.
> 
> what am i not doing that i should be doing?


Are you feeding bone at all? I read your previous post that said cut up chicken breast and other cut up chicken...they do need bone for calcium and it firms up the stool. I have to use a ground chicken and bone mix because if my dogs dont get bone every meal they get the runs.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

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misty073 said:


> Are you feeding bone at all? I read your previous post that said cut up chicken breast and other cut up chicken...they do need bone for calcium and it firms up the stool. I have to use a ground chicken and bone mix because if my dogs dont get bone every meal they get the runs.


yah...i'm feeding bone....at least one meal a day....i've cut up chickens in appropriate quarters....so malia, for instance, might get a raw leg quarter...the drumstick in the morning, the thigh at night...that's her daily requirement. i think we based it on 3% of her ideal weight....

and she's just not doing well...it's a week today..even adding pumpkin hasn't helped her....

bubba, on the other hand, my ferocious little pug who thinks he is an american bulldog.....his stools have firmed up...with a little help from pumpkin...he also eats too fast, so a meal for him could be eaten, thrown up, eaten again...it's like he gets three for the price of one LOL


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

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My dogs have to have bone in every meal or they get the runs (well my JRT does I am not sure about Bella because I just feed bone with each meal) I have found that if I dont have any chicken bone mix thawed I can add rice and she is ok.

I didnt have a problem transitioning my dogs but people have said it can take a while for the systems to adjust.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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I have a question. IF I wanted to switch to raw, Hope (5mo Lab/33lbs) can eat anything and is fine BUT Faith (11mo shep/beagl mix/30lbs) has trouble switching to anything (pukes/runs/etc)... how would i feed them both raw?

** I am asking for future reference, i am not planning on switching ATM.


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## Terrie (Sep 11, 2009)

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phoebespeople said:


> A whole chicken is about 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organs, so that is ideal. .


So since a whole chicken fits the percentages, would a raw diet based almost entirely on whole chickens work? I bought a whole _young_ chicken and it took Lexi about a week to eat it. This was a while back, she would have about 14oz a day.

The thing with raw is I feel it's not the complete diet(that is if all I'm feeding is chicken)? Does protein source matter? I also throw in the occasional egg, how much egg is suggested tho? As far as salmon/fish oil, can I just get the ones that come in capsules for humans?


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

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so exactly one week later, both of my dogs are squirting bloody diarrhea.....and were promptly taken to the vet...of course it was sunday. dogs do not do anything abnormal during regular business hours (murphy's law)

both of them had stool and blood taken...both had an overgrowth of bacteria in their stools....

one dog is ten. the other is almost three.

we are off raw, much to my disappointment....and on antibiotics and cooked plus wellness super five (1/4 cup each + chicken or hamburger + pumpkin + missing link)

vet believes that malia has IBS....and that raw may not be the diet for her. his dogs are on raw....rare but true.

i would imagine that we will try again later --- only this time i will ease them into it.....using the kibble in the morning and giving them raw later in the day...little bits at a time to get their bodies used to it.

i feel pretty badly about this.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

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FaithFurMom09 said:


> I followed one of the links someone posted a few pages back and their menu sounded ok but it seems almost too simple.... thoughts?
> 
> AM-chicken backs
> PM meals (alternating)- chicken quarters/turkey necks/fish/pork roast/ribs/pork shoulder/beef/lamb.
> ...


Too much bone. If you simply feed the backs in the morning and boneless meat for dinner it is fine though. I would only use red meats for the boneless meat. I also would mix it up and not use chicken backs exclusively, pork ribs and shoulder are fun to eat as well. Most dogs take time to be able to eat organ just once or twice a week. Best to feed daily for several months at least.


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## LynnInTenn (Oct 9, 2009)

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I agree with Kathyy about the too much bone. Mine get a boneless meal in the evening. I split the 2 meals of organ meat/week up into small portions mixed with their regular evening meals. They can get "cannon butt" if given too much organ meat at one time It's pretty rich stuff.
For the most part, chicken backs are a staple for breakfast cause they're cheap, but I do substitute other RMBs.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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ok well now im confused- what is a no bone meat they can have them in the evening?


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

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Just anything with out a bone. beef, ground beef, chicken, pork. just take the meat off the bone or buy boneless.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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misty073 said:


> Just anything with out a bone. beef, ground beef, chicken, pork. just take the meat off the bone or buy boneless.


but that doesnt seem right either. 1 bone meal in the AM and then organs and no bones in the evening. 

For example: (tomorrow)
Am- Chicken Backs
PM- boneless pork chops?


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

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I cant do boneless meals for my dogs. They get the runs (unless I add a bit of rice, which I will do sometimes) I do a chicken and bone ground mix and just ad my meat to that. You could half the back in the morn and half at night if you can chop it. My dogs are small so it would be chopped to small for me.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

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The annoying soft poop then hard poop was one reason I went to one meal a day. Another was I could feed bigger more interesting meals. Half a chicken is more fun to eat than 2 quarters, right?

Just a little bone helps Max out. I figured a small raw sardine of 1.5 ounces would have 1/7 of an ounce of bone when he is supposed to get 1 ounce and it was enough. He does have a grind that has bone, I could make up patties of that for small bony meals too if I needed it. Chicken feet are 1.5 ounces and about half bone. For some reason dogs don't seem to gulp them even though they are sort of small. Too poky? 

I would ditch the chicken backs and feed something with more meat for the morning meal. That would help a lot. If you feed 2 pounds a day, 2 chicken quarters would have less bone than a pound of backs and a quarter. Even better, half a chicken split into dark and white quarters.

When you want to try a boneless meal feed the organ with the bony meal!


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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im just going to buy this pack i saw at Walmart that had cut up whole chicken in it (thighs, backs, etc). 

that way i know its already cut, i just have to size it portion wise and be done.


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## LynnInTenn (Oct 9, 2009)

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Most people just watch their stools. If they're runny they need more bone. If they are crumbly (sp? is that a word) less bone. The stools should turn white in a couple of days.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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Starting them on RAW in the next couple days-- im nervous but excited.....


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## mrslloyd09 (Jul 12, 2009)

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FaithFurMom09 said:


> im just going to buy this pack i saw at Walmart that had cut up whole chicken in it (thighs, backs, etc).
> 
> that way i know its already cut, i just have to size it portion wise and be done.



Just make sure it's not enhanced chicken. I know Foster Farms doesn't but Wal-mart's house brand and some of the other chicken brands do, some as much as 18% salt solution (I won't even eat those). 

Really, cutting up a whole chicken on your own isn't that bad, as long as you have a sharp knife or scissors. In fact, I kind of enjoy the satisfaction of divvying up that chicken, makes my mother proud (she grew up on a poultry farm).


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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I got a whole chicken split in 1/2. I divided it up and put it in bags. i got a scale and shears. Today was the 1st day they had chicken and they did so well!


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

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FaithFurMom09 said:


> I got a whole chicken split in 1/2. I divided it up and put it in bags. i got a scale and shears. Today was the 1st day they had chicken and they did so well![/QUOTEV]
> 
> Next time buy the whole chickens. You'll save a lot of money in the long run.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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DobManiac said:


> FaithFurMom09 said:
> 
> 
> > I got a whole chicken split in 1/2. I divided it up and put it in bags. i got a scale and shears. Today was the 1st day they had chicken and they did so well![/QUOTEV]
> ...


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## misty073 (Mar 31, 2009)

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FaithFurMom09 said:


> DobManiac said:
> 
> 
> > i went ahead and did. I bought 3 for around $3 each.
> ...


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## LynnInTenn (Oct 9, 2009)

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FaithFurMom09 said:


> Starting them on RAW in the next couple days-- im nervous but excited.....


I stressed about this too. I think everyone does. It'll be just fine. Your dogs will love it 
You should be able to find bags of chicken parts at Walmart. The leg qrts. are usually .49-.69/lb.
Good luck.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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so I emailed the local butcher here in town, this is the response:

Our dog food is made up of beef liver, beef kidney, beef spleen, and beef scraps. It is ground together, No bone, No chicken, No pork, No grains. Frozen in approximately 7lb. bags.

so Im thinking thats not going to work and does that mean they wont sell me individual parts (organs, etc)?


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

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It just sounds like he described their ground up a mix for dogs. I'm guessing your email asked about meat specifically for your dogs. But you can still buy the whole pieces that they have for people. I don't know if they are allowed to sell spleen to people, but you should have no problem getting liver and kidney.

Ask for prices on beef hearts on pork roasts and necks as well. Maybe basic ground beef too. Those are a couple of easy protien sources that you can add on next.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

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DobManiac said:


> It just sounds like he described their ground up a mix for dogs. I'm guessing your email asked about meat specifically for your dogs. But you can still buy the whole pieces that they have for people. I don't know if they are allowed to sell spleen to people, but you should have no problem getting liver and kidney.
> 
> Ask for prices on beef hearts on pork roasts and necks as well. Maybe basic ground beef too. Those are a couple of easy protien sources that you can add on next.


Yeah i was asking for organs mostly and meat without bone. At Walmart I only found beef livers and chicken livers. I was hoping to email the butcher and get a variety. I cant start them on organs for a little bit more but i am trying to get my sources set up so when i can start, i know where to get it at. KWIM?

What is a good price for organs and non-bone meats? I dont want to pay too much. faith gets 9oz a day and Hope gets 2lbs a day to give you an idea how much total of everything they need.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

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FaithFurMom09 said:


> so I emailed the local butcher here in town, this is the response:
> 
> Our dog food is made up of beef liver, beef kidney, beef spleen, and beef scraps. It is ground together, No bone, No chicken, No pork, No grains. Frozen in approximately 7lb. bags.
> 
> so Im thinking thats not going to work and does that mean they wont sell me individual parts (organs, etc)?


If that grind is a good price then it is worth buying. It needs more meat and bone added to make it a complete meal. See if you can get him to estimate how much liver goes into a batch so you can use it for liver, organ and the rest counts towards meat. Say he says it is 20% liver, 10% spleen and 70% meat scraps. Then if your dog needs 1 ounce of liver a day you would feed 5 ounces of this glop and 4 ounces could count towards meat and other organ. Max needs .5 ounces of liver a day so he would get 2.5 ounces of this, .25 counts towards other organ and 2.25 to meat. Then he needs 1 ounce of bone contained in 6 ounces or so of meat. I bet the scraps are fatty nasty things so I would try for lean bony meat for the rest of his food.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

A lot is going to come down to whether or not your dogs will even it the organs. Mine love organ meat, so it's easy for me to split up a pound between the four of them every couple of days. But some dogs never get around to liking the texture. If that ends up bing the case with your guys then a mix like this could be your bestfriend.

For prices I would check a few different locations to get an average in your area. As a general rule I can keep boneless meat under $1.50 and organs under $1.


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## FaithFurMom09 (Oct 24, 2009)

DobManiac said:


> A lot is going to come down to whether or not your dogs will even it the organs. Mine love organ meat, so it's easy for me to split up a pound between the four of them every couple of days. But some dogs never get around to liking the texture. If that ends up bing the case with your guys then a mix like this could be your bestfriend.
> 
> For prices I would check a few different locations to get an average in your area. As a general rule I can keep boneless meat under $1.50 and organs under $1.


good point Dob- i had not thought of that.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

my dogs will be finished their antibiotics today....

how long do i wait to try putting them on raw again.

should i remove the skin from the chicken?

should i maybe start with a different meat?

those squirts were not fun...although if that is what it takes for transition, then i'm down for that....

their fur felt awful.....after that week....

i don't know what i did wrong that i screwed them up so badly..

i took a whole chicken and cut it into portions, thinking long term balance...and they got omega 3 supplements in the form of what my honey and i take...alaskan salmon oil....i stopped the missing link, although i'm not sure why.

one dog is ten years old....but not a picky eater...the other is a pug and they live to eat...
39 lbs for the ten year old and she could stand to lose a few pounds...
18 lbs for the pug and he's perfect...

now, of course, i'm afraid to do this...although i really do believe raw is the way to go.


right now they are on boiled chicken and rice or hamburger or turkey and rice....75% protein, 25% rice....and their stools are not hard, not soft. they are formed....

no more groaning, no blood, no liquid.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

MagicRe said:


> my dogs will be finished their antibiotics today....
> 
> how long do i wait to try putting them on raw again.
> 
> ...


I responded on the sticky, but I just read this and thought I could give a bit more info. If they just got off antibiotics I would put them on a really good doggy probiotic to get their digestive systems back to normal. Wait a month and then start to introduce the raw chicken again. I would keep them on the probiotics for at least the first month of the switch as well, maybe longer depending on the dog.

What exactly was wrong with their coats? Could it have been just detoxing?

As far as the chicken skin, I would cut off any glops of hanging fat but leave the covering skin. They will need some fat for calories, but the excess could lead to soft stools so cut it off in the beginning. Just give the chicken a good trimming so to speak.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

DobManiac said:


> I responded on the sticky, but I just read this and thought I could give a bit more info. If they just got off antibiotics I would put them on a really good doggy probiotic to get their digestive systems back to normal. Wait a month and then start to introduce the raw chicken again. I would keep them on the probiotics for at least the first month of the switch as well, maybe longer depending on the dog.
> 
> What exactly was wrong with their coats? Could it have been just detoxing?
> 
> As far as the chicken skin, I would cut off any glops of hanging fat but leave the covering skin. They will need some fat for calories, but the excess could lead to soft stools so cut it off in the beginning. Just give the chicken a good trimming so to speak.


thanks for the good advice...

do you know of a really good probiotic? they are no longer on anything but bland and that includes the missing link....

their coats..strangest thing and happened in such a short period of time...they got dull, oily, and there were rough patches...

keep in mind, prior to all this...and no, i'm not blaming the raw for any of it...i think it's a series of events and three bouts of antibiotics...and maybe not enough transition time....but prior to all of this....both of them had these shiny black coats...silky to the touch..

i will do what you've suggested...it's also something i was hoping someone would say, because that's kind of what i've been thinking....too....give their systems a while to settle down..and then start over..

only this time, if i transition them to raw...would you suggest feeding raw for one meal and then cooked for the other? they won't be going back to kibble at all and i think transitioning too fast contributed to this problem....


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

http://www.preciouspets.org/natursway/natural-defense.htm

I really like the one above, but Eagle Pack also makes a couple of good digestive/probiotic supplements you could use. And those would most likely be available to you locally. Lew Olsen from B-naturels has one as well, but I've never used it. Here is the link:

http://www.b-naturals.com/bertes-ul...n-aid-1-lb-for-cats-and-dogs-p-16?cPath=22_15

She also has a digestive aid that contains enzymes and herbs as well as the probiotics. It looks like a really great product, but I haven't used it myself. But something along those lines would be a good idea to kick start their GI tract and assists with a cold turkey switch. I’m actually thinking of ordering it for one of my dogs that has been losing quite a bit of wait recently. The vet thinks she’s suffering from pancreatic insufficiency.

http://www.b-naturals.com/bertes-digestion-blend-1-lb-p-101?cPath=22_15



> only this time, if i transition them to raw...would you suggest feeding raw for one meal and then cooked for the other? they won't be going back to kibble at all and I think transitioning too fast contributed to this problem....


Personally I prefer switching cold turkey. Raw can't really be mixed well with other foods. And while I can't say for sure why they had such a horrible reaction, I really think a good digestive aid will be of more help to you than a slow transition. However, I don't doing it the plan you suggested causing a problem. But if you do switch would turkey I would fast them for 24 hours first. And if they are still having issues, you could always give them a little cooked rice for extra fiber. Or use a bit of canned pumpkin every day, and you could mix the digestive blend right into it.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

i'm going to stay in this thread with questions, or thoughts, so i don't drive you all nuts in the sticky thread...and therefore make you guys post the same thing twice....

first, thanks....

i've read about raw and not raw not mixing well...although i thought i had read that if i am going to go slowly...not to mix the meals..

so one would be cooked (bland - chicken/hamburger/brown rice, pumpkin)

and then one meal would be raw....i would think the morning meal should be raw and the evening meal would be cooked, until gradually they got used to raw....decreasing the raw until they are completely raw....

increase the morning meal and keep making it later....decreasing the evening meal...so it turns into a 'snack' until they are being fed once per day....

i am, however, going to wait a month...i'd already been looking at berte's stuff...

and i was looking at:

http://vivoanimals.com/VivoZeoClear.php

they have two products that look interesting...this one and the one for the immune system boost....

a friend of mine has a boxer with cancer....her sister raises neopolitan mastiffs and uses vivozeo...

so, i will maybe order berte's first, because my dogs don't have cancer.....and see how they do...and in a month, i'll switch...

but, my gut says gradual, just like i would if they were still on kibble...i don't know that i can put malia through that discomfort again....since she's a healthy ten, but still..she's ten..


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

> The important added benefits of VivoZeoClear is that it creates an inhospitable environment for parasites, yeasts and moulds. Our micro-porous silica (from *food grade USP Diamataceous Earth*) has a high natural silica and trace mineral content which is supportive of ligament, bone, hair and hoof growth.


I'm so happy you posted this, because these people are trying to rip you off. And I happen to love saving people a little money. Plenty much every feedstore carries food grade Diamataceous Earth for I'm guessing a much more resonable price than these people. I actually use it for my dogs instead of a chemical dewormer. But I don't think it has that great of an affect on cancer that I know of.

http://wolfcreekranch1.tripod.com/defaq.html

That site gives a really god explianation of how it works and what purposes it serves. But this stuff will not replace a multi vitamen if that is what you were looking for, although it does contain some trace minerals. I buy mine from them, but I could get it at the feedstore as well.



> i've read about raw and not raw not mixing well...although i thought i had read that if i am going to go slowly...not to mix the meals..
> 
> so one would be cooked (bland - chicken/hamburger/brown rice, pumpkin)
> 
> ...


You know I never thought of doing it this way. It does sound like an interesting idea, so if that is what your gut is saying then give it a try. Just make sure you have a good plan for transitioning from calcium supplements to bone. But, I can't see this causing any extra problems off the top of my head. Just keep us updated as always.


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

When i'm treading in unknown forests, i look at everything and then i research....each ingredient to see if it's what i need for my particular problem....

while i have a medical background....and i have home remedies for people....not so much for dogs, although chicken broth is always on hand for both 

i ordered the ultra biotics and i am going to try this plus keep them on this diet....

although i'm going to watch them....because too much pumpkin, too much grain can be just as damaging..plus....if it's bland for a month....while i doubt that i'm killing them...i think it's not so balanced...so we'll see.

i do know this. when i am preparing something for honey and me, i cut little pieces off of whatever i'm about to cook.....for some reason, i think i'm getting their digestive systems used to eating a different program.

the thing about interesting ideas is they are just that....so, i'll have plan b,c,d, and e in the background as i keep wading through the research..

again, i really thank all of you who have helped....and dob....a definite thanks. i'll be here....reading and posting


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I transitioned Max very slowly to raw. He had been eating homecooked chicken and rice. First I gave him raw chicken meat. Fine by him. Then I gave him whole chicken with bone. Fine by him. Dropped the rice. Oh. That was the sticky place. The gut has to transition from lots of vegetable fiber to bone waste. Pretty tough transition. I needed to feed more bone to get his gut comfortable, sort of opposite what you would think. After bone/meat/organ was okay the strange thing was the remaining veggie, canned pumpkin. It started coming out exactly the way it went in. So no more pumpkin for Max!

I will not be doing a slow transition with another dog but I do understand why you want to do so. Perhaps you could use the Lew Olson cooked diet of 75% meat/organ and 25% veggies with a calcium supplement to start and move to raw meat then bony raw meat then cutting out the veggies?
http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/cooked-diet/


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

Kathyy said:


> I transitioned Max very slowly to raw. He had been eating homecooked chicken and rice. First I gave him raw chicken meat. Fine by him. Then I gave him whole chicken with bone. Fine by him. Dropped the rice. Oh. That was the sticky place. The gut has to transition from lots of vegetable fiber to bone waste. Pretty tough transition. I needed to feed more bone to get his gut comfortable, sort of opposite what you would think. After bone/meat/organ was okay the strange thing was the remaining veggie, canned pumpkin. It started coming out exactly the way it went in. So no more pumpkin for Max!
> 
> I will not be doing a slow transition with another dog but I do understand why you want to do so. Perhaps you could use the Lew Olson cooked diet of 75% meat/organ and 25% veggies with a calcium supplement to start and move to raw meat then bony raw meat then cutting out the veggies?
> http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter/cooked-diet/


did you give him raw chicken and cooked rice, at first, as you transitioned?

i'm pretty sure that i'm the one who caused the problem in the first place...

malia had giardia and was on antibiotics and i never gave her a chance to recover from that before switching to raw....bubba was also on the giardia medication...

i think the end results became more a matter of a colitis effect than a bad response to raw....just timing and not giving their intestines a chance to rest...pannacur is not exactly easy....so a probiotic should have been given during and after...

now i'm stabilising and moving slowly 

i shall read that article today and see if that makes sense to me...

certainly a slow transition for these two is called for...whereas had they been healthy, i probably wouldn't.

i know each dog is different, but transitioning into raw...the squirts can last for weeks and weeks?


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

I chopped up raw boned chicken and put it into his rice and veggies. Fine. When he got a bony chicken bit for a meal and raw chicken/rice fine. It was when I dropped the rice that he had uncomfortable poop. Even though the chicken wing was more than enough bone for his calcium needs he needed more for his gut's comfort. I offered bone twice a day for a while and that did it. He didn't ever have frequent squirts, 'just' mucousy blood tinged stools. I moved to one meal a day when the bone meal poop and meat only meal poop got too annoying. Not colitis type poop but annoying anyway.

Max doesn't have a sensitive gut. A lot of that is because he hasn't had the opportunities to get into trouble like Sassy did. I don't freak at icky poo as I have learned that a short fast and small meals do wonders to heal the sore gut. And I do have a couple of smart dogs that won't eat unless I trick them into it when tummies hurt. Then they very sweetly barf it up on the tile rather than the carpet. They really are very special!

The raw/cooked thing is partly a myth I think. WE eat raw and cooked at the same meal. I had raw tuna sushi for lunch yesterday even. 

Try the cooked mostly meat diet and then try the meat raw with the veggies and see how that goes. Then substitute a bony meat for one of the meals. You could even use raw meat/veggie as a snack/treat so you can try it away from the cooked and in tiny amounts. Or a bony meat the same way. Chicken feet or wing might work as a treat. Just make up little patties and freeze so you can go as quick or slow as the dogs need.

The raw feeding list is all or nothing. Probably best not to be so waffly. Watery squirts and dogs not eating for days is too much for me. I knew I would not give up on the project, just moved sideways at times is all. Sounds like that is exactly where you are too?


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

Kathyy said:


> I chopped up raw boned chicken and put it into his rice and veggies. Fine. When he got a bony chicken bit for a meal and raw chicken/rice fine. It was when I dropped the rice that he had uncomfortable poop. Even though the chicken wing was more than enough bone for his calcium needs he needed more for his gut's comfort. I offered bone twice a day for a while and that did it. He didn't ever have frequent squirts, 'just' mucousy blood tinged stools. I moved to one meal a day when the bone meal poop and meat only meal poop got too annoying. Not colitis type poop but annoying anyway.
> 
> Max doesn't have a sensitive gut. A lot of that is because he hasn't had the opportunities to get into trouble like Sassy did. I don't freak at icky poo as I have learned that a short fast and small meals do wonders to heal the sore gut. And I do have a couple of smart dogs that won't eat unless I trick them into it when tummies hurt. Then they very sweetly barf it up on the tile rather than the carpet. They really are very special!
> 
> ...


yep. that's pretty much where i am...hubby is really freaked out because his baby girl is ten years old and he doesn't want me killing her...and it kills him to see her squirting.....

i know it takes time for them to get used to a whole different style of eating....my pug is king of the jungle on raw....and i do believe would have adapted that much faster, even with the multiple regurgitations because he tries to eat too much too fast....

it's malia who is the problem.....in so far as i'm not so sure she will adapt to raw....it may end up that she gets cooked food with a little bit of raw and he'll get raw....


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## MagicRe (Jan 8, 2010)

ok. so i'm getting ready to start them on raw again and let's see if i can get it right this time.

since posting before....they have been on berte's ultra probiotics...whilst they are still on a cooked diet of bison/hamburger/turkey/chicken/lamb + ground up egg shell + yams + quinoa or brown rice....

their stools are not the greatest but not the worst, either..

i'm about to go and get chicken backs to start them off....and the only thing i can't decide is whether or not to give them the backs for a.m. and cooked for p.m. or just fast them for 24 hours and dive back in again.

i did read a site about switching to raw that said to only feed chicken backs for the first few days.....

i would really like to avoid the horrendous squirts these two got...and i know that my bone ratio was not right the first time....

so how does that sound? backs for the first few days....and then slowly add in chicken....and watch their stools?


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