# The Obedience/Rally classes thread



## Shoul

I'm wondering if we can get enough interest going for a thread like this. Or, maybe starting this is just a faux-pas for a newbie poster (if so, I'm sorry), but Simon and I have just completed our first set of Rally-O classes! We had a blast and he has really impressed me with his capacity to learn so fast (yet again). When we started the class, he still thought that every dog in sight was meant to be played with :lalala:. His focus improved tremendously and he's amazingly picked up (pretty much on his own) to shift his hips along with me in my direction of motion while heeling.

So here are two videos from our graduation class last night. Please pardon any spatial coordination issues on my part and the slight wardrobe malfunction in the second video making me look like I don't know how to dress.


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## trainingjunkie

Very nice job!!! When are you headed into the ring? Looks like you're ready!

I don't know if we can generate enough interest to keep this tread alive, but I am willing to do my part!


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## Salina

I am currently in my first rally class with my 8 month old lab-mix  she is doing great and i love love rally! Its so much fun...not sure we will be competing ever though.


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## 3doglady

Great video. I just started my 2 in Rally on Monday. I'm not sure where we'll be at the end of this semester. 

My lab, who does freestyle (and already knows a lot of the moves in this class) has forgotten how to sit, lol. The last time she was in the training ring our Rally class is held in was for nosework, so she thinks I'm going to tell her to go sniff. I expect she'll get over that, but we have spent the past few days brushing up on her sit command. The funny thing was, I had all the signs printed and went through each of them with her at home and she did fine. I think once she equates to what's expected of her in the training ring, she'll be fine.

My setter, who is very proud of her basic obedience skills, (and has done a few of the moves for Rally), is afraid of the gates outlining the ring and also, won't sit. Since it was just the one class so far, I'm hopeful that she will work through this phase and blossom, though I may have to repeat the class with her. For her, it's more about finding ways to build her confidence.

So this week has been all about sit, sit, sit. I brought some gates home to work with. I think, hope, it will get better, but right now I'm feeling like a bit of an as*.


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## sassafras

This weekend Squash and I will be in our first Rally trial, ever. My husband will be videoing, and I figure either he'll be a rock star or we'll be the next viral YouTube sensation (a la Fenton). 

Either way, I'm good.


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## trainingjunkie

Where are you showing? There's a good chance that we will be at the same place!


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## sassafras

trainingjunkie said:


> Where are you showing? There's a good chance that we will be at the same place!


SPDTC. We will be one of two in Novice A... which at least ups the odds of scoring best.


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## trainingjunkie

Make sure to say Hi! I'll be there with you in Rally Novice B!


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## sassafras

trainingjunkie said:


> Make sure to say Hi! I'll be there with you in Rally Novice B!


I didn't even realize you were in Minnesota. Weird!


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## trainingjunkie

Just look for the Whippet! My 3 should be pretty easy to spot!


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## sassafras

Yea just look for the polar bear.


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## elrohwen

My pup is too young for formal obedience or rally (just started puppy class part 2 last night) but I can't wait to participate in these things with him. I love reading everyone else's stories!

Watson's mom got her RN a couple weeks ago, so hopefully he'll follow in her footsteps.


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## Pawzk9

3doglady said:


> Great video. I just started my 2 in Rally on Monday. I'm not sure where we'll be at the end of this semester.
> 
> My lab, who does freestyle (and already knows a lot of the moves in this class) has forgotten how to sit, lol. The last time she was in the training ring our Rally class is held in was for nosework, so she thinks I'm going to tell her to go sniff. I expect she'll get over that, but we have spent the past few days brushing up on her sit command. The funny thing was, I had all the signs printed and went through each of them with her at home and she did fine. I think once she equates to what's expected of her in the training ring, she'll be fine.
> 
> My setter, who is very proud of her basic obedience skills, (and has done a few of the moves for Rally), is afraid of the gates outlining the ring and also, won't sit. Since it was just the one class so far, I'm hopeful that she will work through this phase and blossom, though I may have to repeat the class with her. For her, it's more about finding ways to build her confidence.
> 
> So this week has been all about sit, sit, sit. I brought some gates home to work with. I think, hope, it will get better, but right now I'm feeling like a bit of an as*.


You know you can buy a ring gate from companies like J&J, Clean run, etc. Targeting games with the ring gate should improve her confidence. (and will be helpful in getting a go-out.


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## Pawzk9

sassafras said:


> This weekend Squash and I will be in our first Rally trial, ever. My husband will be videoing, and I figure either he'll be a rock star or we'll be the next viral YouTube sensation (a la Fenton).
> 
> Either way, I'm good.


Good luck and have fun.


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## sassafras

Pawzk9 said:


> Good luck and have fun.


Thanks. Novice A is dead last so at least the crowd will be thinner and I won't have TOO many people watching me.


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## TorachiKatashi

Bear has taken two Obedience classes (one more about foundation skills and the other about formal Obedience,) and Mozart is taking the same Foundations class now. Bear will be part of a CARO seminar/fun match next Sunday as well.


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## Shoul

I'm so glad this thread has actually taken off!



trainingjunkie said:


> Very nice job!!! When are you headed into the ring? Looks like you're ready!


Thanks! He's still not quite ready to perform the same way in a distracting environment. He'd gotten used to the classroom and the dogs in it. He's just generally fairly sensitive to motion and quick to react to it (probably somewhat like your 5 year old?).



TorachiKatashi said:


> Bear has taken two Obedience classes (one more about foundation skills and the other about formal Obedience,) and Mozart is taking the same Foundations class now. Bear will be part of a CARO seminar/fun match next Sunday as well.


I was also considering showing under CARO. They allow you to take food in the ring with you (you just can't use it as a lure from what I understand) and they allow dogs to wear a harness. Good luck at your trial and update us!


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## petpeeve

sassafras said:


> Thanks. Novice A is dead last so at least the crowd will be thinner and I won't have TOO many people watching me.


Not to put undue pressure on you ... but ...

you DO realize that the people watching at the end of the day are usually the HIT and other trophy award hopefuls ??? LOL  

Don't worry though, just filter and you'll be fine.


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## TorachiKatashi

Shoul said:


> I was also considering showing under CARO. They allow you to take food in the ring with you (you just can't use it as a lure from what I understand) and they allow dogs to wear a harness. Good luck at your trial and update us!


The rule is that you can use food in Novice and Advanced at the end of a station, if that station ends with the dog in a stationary position (sit, down, or stand.) You have to keep your food in the opposite pocket, and you cannot pretend to be holding food to lure your dog around (which you CAN do in CKC/AKC, as stupid as it is. I know a lot of people who never would have gotten out of Novice A in CKC if they couldn't lure their dog all around with pretend food.) You can also, in theory, use a toy, but I honestly can't think of how someone would tug with their dog without the dog breaking position and/or it being considered to "seriously affect the flow of the run." I also have never owned a toy that could be concealed in a pants pocket.


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## sassafras

petpeeve said:


> Not to put undue pressure on you ... but ...
> 
> you DO realize that the people watching at the end of the day are usually the HIT and other trophy award hopefuls ??? LOL
> 
> Don't worry though, just filter and you'll be fine.


Ha! Your words have no power here, because I don't even know what HIT _is_!

Seriously, I'm having waves of nervousness but mostly just at the idea of doing something publicly where a bunch of people will be watching me. I'm not agonizing over what our score will be, though.


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## DJEtzel

Good thread idea. There's one for agility so why not ob/rally!?

You guys are on your way. I'd try out some "fun" shows at a local kennel club or training area to get him used to the distractions and environment and dive in soon! 

Frag and I took a rally class two years ago? I think it was two. Maybe one... anyway, he did awesome, I'd love to trial, I'm just too lazy/cheap to get him registered with the AKC. Haha. My new pup will hopefully be doing obedience in a year or so. He's got the positioning and retrieve started. So far, so good.  It'll be cool to follow everyone's progress here. 



elrohwen said:


> My pup is too young for formal obedience or rally (just started puppy class part 2 last night) but I can't wait to participate in these things with him. I love reading everyone else's stories!
> 
> Watson's mom got her RN a couple weeks ago, so hopefully he'll follow in her footsteps.


Never too young! He's only a few weeks younger than my pup and this is the prime age to work on foundations for formal obedience and rally.


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## elrohwen

DJEtzel said:


> Never too young! He's only a few weeks younger than my pup and this is the prime age to work on foundations for formal obedience and rally.


By that I just meant that he can't enter the official obedience and rally level classes until he's finished his foundation work in puppy class part 2 (which is just a slightly advanced version of their Basic Obedience class, so not only puppy play time or anything) and the "Better than Basic" level class. We're also focusing a lot on life skills training like "leave it" and loose leash walking, but he's definitely getting the foundations now. He was the star at his puppy class part 1 test  It was set up like a mini-Rally course which was fun.


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## Keechak

Lark just graduated her beginners obedience class on Thursday. We have been training at the Novice level for a couple months now and she is almost ready to enter her first Novice obedience trial. We could do Beginners Novice trial but I'm more of a traditional dog world person and I will only ever do the Novice, Open, and Utility classes.

Hawkeye and Kechara are both trained at the CDX "Open" level, and Kechara did very well in a fun match I brought her to got a 189 in Open, but I just haven't gotten them out to any obedience trials maybe I'll enter all three in one trial lol.


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## sassafras

trainingjunkie rocked the casbah today!

Squash qualified. We biffed one station (the first one, of course *rolleyes*) but we didn't let it get us down and everything else went well. 

Smug mofo (I feel compelled to disclose that there was only one other dog in Novice A so the second-place ribbon doesn't mean as much as you might think it does ):










Video:


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## Pawzk9

sassafras said:


> trainingjunkie rocked the casbah today!
> 
> Smug mofo (I feel compelled to disclose that there was only one other dog in Novice A so the second-place ribbon doesn't mean as much as you might think it does ):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ]



But you did Q. The green ribbon is the important one


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## trainingjunkie

You guys looked great! I was so glad that you had the video! You would never have guessed that this was his first show. You are going to have so much fun!!!

Looking forward to tomorrow!


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## Finkie_Mom

We haven't done any formal obedience/rally classes yet (though we start a rally class on Tuesday!), but I was luckily able to get Kimma her RN last year haha. I've been working with her for a while on the basics (positioning, heel work, pivots, retrieves, recall, etc.), so I'm hoping getting in to class will just give us the boost we need to start competing again. Agility has been our main focus for the past year, but I want to hopefully at least try for her RA and maybe her BN soon. The ultimate goal would really be her CDX (I think only one other Finkie in history has gotten it, and it was a male if I'm not mistaken, so she could potentially be the first female to get it!), and if we got any rally stuff along the way, then even better.

Hopefully I will have some interesting content to add to this thread one day LOL.


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## sassafras

Welp, the dreaded NQ for Squashies today - but in some ways it was as good of an experience for me as yesterday because... nothing really bad happened. I commiserated with a woman who goes to my same training club, and the sky didn't fall. 

We did not get half a block away from the venue before he was dead asleep in the back seat, so I think he was just SO tired from yesterday that he got overwhelmed today and a bit stressed out. His default displacement behavior when his head is in that place is to become completely fascinated by anything but me - in this case, a dog in the next ring. Plus I don't have the experience in the ring yet to be able to recover well when things start to go amiss. Live and learn.

I think until he gets more used to trialing, I may only enter him on one day per weekend. Either that, or if he Q's on a Saturday just withdraw from the Sunday and eat the entry fees. When we did the CAT, he kind of did the same thing - the second day I actually thought he might quit the course although he ultimately ended up finishing. So he may just be a one-day wonder until he gets more experience.


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## Shoul

TorachiKatashi said:


> The rule is that you can use food in Novice and Advanced at the end of a station, if that station ends with the dog in a stationary position (sit, down, or stand.) You have to keep your food in the opposite pocket, and you cannot pretend to be holding food to lure your dog around (which you CAN do in CKC/AKC, as stupid as it is. I know a lot of people who never would have gotten out of Novice A in CKC if they couldn't lure their dog all around with pretend food.) You can also, in theory, use a toy, but I honestly can't think of how someone would tug with their dog without the dog breaking position and/or it being considered to "seriously affect the flow of the run." I also have never owned a toy that could be concealed in a pants pocket.


Thanks for the clarification. I've read through the CARO rules, but I haven't really had a chance to go through CKC's. The thing about having food in the ring is that it would make me feel safer to have it in case my dog has a small freak out. Then we could at least have some hope of training through it. However, I do agree that it doesn't really deserve a title if you just lure your dog through everything - that would mean even a dog with no previous rally experience and no knowledge of the moves would have a chance at getting a Novice title if the owner was skilled enough at luring. Kind of takes away from the hours of practicing you have to put in.



sassafras said:


> Squash qualified. We biffed one station (the first one, of course *rolleyes*) but we didn't let it get us down and everything else went well.


Yay! Congrats! Looks like he just needed that first station to realise what was happening and then got right into the grove of things.



sassafras said:


> I think until he gets more used to trialing, I may only enter him on one day per weekend. Either that, or if he Q's on a Saturday just withdraw from the Sunday and eat the entry fees. When we did the CAT, he kind of did the same thing - the second day I actually thought he might quit the course although he ultimately ended up finishing. So he may just be a one-day wonder until he gets more experience.


I can imagine it can be pretty taxing on a dog to have to go through two days in a row in a trial setting. It's just one of those things called experience that can only be acquired with time.


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## sassafras

trainingjunkie said:


> Oh, I'm sorry Sassafras! But like you said, nothing bad happened! There's always another weekend! Gives me a higher chance of bumping into you somewhere down the road! I like your idea about trials. That's exactly why each of my girls were only entered one day. My male has more energy than is natural, so I can just keep bringing him...


Thanks! It's funny, because just earlier I had been telling you about how when he gets stressed he stares off into the horizon, aheheh. I'm looking at it as a good learning experience. In retrospect, because I knew he was tired I let him rest in his crate almost right up until we went in except for one short little practice in the warm up ring. He's really a dog who needs to gawk and soak stuff in before he can really be comfortable, so I wonder if having him out earlier and more practicing attention and LAT (which we did a TON of on Saturday) would have helped.

In any event, the sun will still come up tomorrow. 



> On my end, my whippet finished her RN title with a 2nd place. My little female finished her RA title with a first place and walked off the course happy. And finally, my male got his 3rd CDX leg! I never have to show him in open again! The out of sights sits and downs were going to be the death of me! Now, time to regroup and decide where we go from here. Thinking about an RAE on my male before testing the waters of utility!


Hooray! I didn't get to watch all your legs, but the ones I did your dogs looked fantastic! I hope to see you again, our next trial is January in Hugo (I think 12-13th?).


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## Poly

sassafras said:


> Ha! Your words have no power here, because I don't even know what HIT _is_!
> 
> Seriously, I'm having waves of nervousness but mostly just at the idea of doing something publicly where a bunch of people will be watching me. I'm not agonizing over what our score will be, though.


HIT = High in Trial - awarded to the highest scoring dog in the Regular classes. 

There's also High Combined, which is awarded for the highest combined score in Open B and Utility, but that will have been decided before you go in.

Those two have to be offered - although not necessarliy awarded - at every trial. But many trials also have other awards or trophies that may have to wait until all results are in.

So some of the people hanging around till the end of a trial include those who have already received relatively high scores.

Don't worry about the butterfiles - everybody gets them.


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## TorachiKatashi

Poly said:


> HIT = High in Trial - awarded to the highest scoring dog in the Regular classes.
> 
> There's also High Combined, which is awarded for the highest combined score in Open B and Utility, but that will have been decided before you go in.
> 
> Those two have to be offered - although not necessarliy awarded - at every trial. But many trials also have other awards or trophies that may have to wait until all results are in.
> 
> So some of the people hanging around till the end of a trial include those who have already received relatively high scores.
> 
> Don't worry about the butterfiles - everybody gets them.


Just want to clarify that HIT only applies to Obedience - there is no HIT or similar award in Rally.


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## Pawzk9

TorachiKatashi said:


> The rule is that you can use food in Novice and Advanced at the end of a station, if that station ends with the dog in a stationary position (sit, down, or stand.) You have to keep your food in the opposite pocket, and you cannot pretend to be holding food to lure your dog around (which you CAN do in CKC/AKC, as stupid as it is. I know a lot of people who never would have gotten out of Novice A in CKC if they couldn't lure their dog all around with pretend food.) You can also, in theory, use a toy, but I honestly can't think of how someone would tug with their dog without the dog breaking position and/or it being considered to "seriously affect the flow of the run." I also have never owned a toy that could be concealed in a pants pocket.


Unless the rules have changed recently, AKC does not allow food in the ring. APDT (now I think UKC) does


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## petpeeve

sassafras said:


> He's really a dog who needs to gawk and soak stuff in before he can really be comfortable, so I wonder if having him out earlier and more practicing attention and LAT (which we did a TON of on Saturday) would have helped.


I try to make a habit of arriving at the trial site early, then casually LLW my dog around the entire trial area, ... including the perimeter of the ring we'll actually be working in. Just to acclimate him / her, and reduce the likelihood of any potential 'stargazing' in the midst of our run. I find this helps immensely, especially in an unfamiliar venue. 

Not sure if that might apply to your particular situation, or not.


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## Poly

TorachiKatashi said:


> Just want to clarify that HIT only applies to Obedience - there is no HIT or similar award in Rally.


That's true. No HIT or other competitons between the regular classes in AKC Rally like you have in Obedience ( except for the brand-new optional high combined) 

But the point was that - depending on how the triai is set up - if you are going in late in a trial, even in Rally, you could be watched by the high Obedience score handlers who are waiting around for the decision on HIT or other high-score awards from the obedience competitions. .


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## Pawzk9

sassafras said:


> Welp, the dreaded NQ for Squashies today - but in some ways it was as good of an experience for me as yesterday because... nothing really bad happened. I commiserated with a woman who goes to my same training club, and the sky didn't fall.
> 
> 
> Alice NQed twice in novice. Let me rephrase that. Alice did fine, I missed signs. She breezed through Adv, and Ex and finished her RAE the same day as her CDX.


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## TorachiKatashi

Pawzk9 said:


> Unless the rules have changed recently, AKC does not allow food in the ring. APDT (now I think UKC) does


Oh, no, AKC and CKC have never allowed food in the ring for Rally - but they do allow you to pretend to be holding food between your fingers to "lure" your dog everywhere, which you cannot do in the organizations that allow food. I haven't really been keeping up with UKC (just... _so_ much drama over there about every little thing,) but if they do now allow food, I would imagine they have a similar "no pretend luring" rule.

As an aside, APDT no longer holds Rally trials. They sold the rights to their trials to USDAA.


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## Salina

TorachiKatashi said:


> Oh, no, AKC and CKC have never allowed food in the ring for Rally - but they do allow you to pretend to be holding food between your fingers to "lure" your dog everywhere, which you cannot do in the organizations that allow food. I haven't really been keeping up with UKC (just... _so_ much drama over there about every little thing,) but if they do now allow food, I would imagine they have a similar "no pretend luring" rule.
> 
> As an aside, APDT no longer holds Rally trials. They sold the rights to their trials to USDAA.


My rally coach said you are not supposed to lure your dog. You cam use a flat hand, but not pretend to hold a treat.


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## TorachiKatashi

Salina said:


> My rally coach said you are not supposed to lure your dog. You cam use a flat hand, but not pretend to hold a treat.


If you were a good trainer, you wouldn't, but you're perfectly allowed to within the rules. I've personally watched people get qualifying scores on courses where they have to clap their hands and yell, "C'mon! Come get the cookie! Look what Mommy has!" while going past the Offset Figure 8. The next time you go to a trial, watch everyone when they have to do a front - almost every single one of them will hold their fingers together and pretend to be holding a cookie to "lure" their dog into a (usually slow and crooked) front.


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## Salina

Oh ok. I see  i never use treats during the course (training, havent made it to a trial yet)...she works much better without treats...for whatever reason *lol* she gets one before start and after finish


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## sassafras

TorachiKatashi said:


> I've personally watched people get qualifying scores on courses where they have to clap their hands and yell, "C'mon! Come get the cookie! Look what Mommy has!" while going past the Offset Figure 8.


 You're specifically allowed to clap your hands, encourage your dog, etc. It's not meant to be traditional obedience, not sure why following the rules is a dirty sin or why it wouldn't qualify. 



> The next time you go to a trial, watch everyone when they have to do a front - almost every single one of them will hold their fingers together and pretend to be holding a cookie to "lure" their dog into a (usually slow and crooked) front.


They're not necessarily pretending to hold a treat. Many of my hand signals are similar to what they were when I was teaching skills and _did_ have treats in my hand, but the lures were faded long ago and they're just the signal I continue to use. For example, my hand signal for a lure is holding my two fists together against my stomach with my index fingers pointing downward. For finishes, similarly I have my hand in a fist with just my index finger pointing. I'm not pretending to hold treats, that's just how I hold my hands. 

And yea, sometimes his fronts are crooked. And I don't really care.  So what? That's why I do Rally instead of obedience, which I will never do. It's a fun alternative with relaxed standards for those of us who are mediocre trainers, it doesn't really pretend to be anything else. *shrug*


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## TorachiKatashi

sassafras said:


> You're specifically allowed to clap your hands, encourage your dog, etc. It's not meant to be traditional obedience, not sure why following the rules is a dirty sin or why it wouldn't qualify.


Just because it's not traditional Obedience doesn't mean the dogs shouldn't be trained. I could go grab any random dog from the SPCA who has never had a day of training and get a 85+ score in Rally Novice in CKC just by "luring" them all around the ring, but that tarnishes the sport for the teams who have actually put the effort in. I don't expect Rally teams to be a sharp and crisp and professional as Obedience teams, but I do expect them to respect their sport, their fellow competitors, and act like they've actually tried. A lot of Obedience people look down on Rally, and despite being a Rally competitor myself, I completely understand why. 

But regardless, my issue is not with clapping (although I do have to roll my eyes when I watch the people who have to clap their hands in front of their dogs face five times just to get the dog to look at them - I'd call that a correction and NQ them) My issue is with the fake food luring in a ring where food is strictly forbidden. There's a reason CARO and APDT/USDAA do not allow it even though they allow food.



> They're not necessarily pretending to hold a treat. Many of my hand signals are similar to what they were when I was teaching skills and _did_ have treats in my hand, but the lures were faded long ago and they're just the signal I continue to use. For example, my hand signal for a lure is holding my two fists together against my stomach with my index fingers pointing downward. For finishes, similarly I have my hand in a fist with just my index finger pointing. I'm not pretending to hold treats, that's just how I hold my hands.


When you're holding your fingers together an inch in front of your dogs nose and dragging them into position and saying "Look! Look what I have!" that's pretending to hold a treat.



> And yea, sometimes his fronts are crooked. And I don't really care.  So what? That's why I do Rally instead of obedience, which I will never do. It's a fun alternative with relaxed standards for those of us who are mediocre trainers, it doesn't really pretend to be anything else. *shrug*


That's fine, if that's your standard you want to work towards, good for you. My point was that people who need to pretend to hold food to lure their dogs into a front rarely ever get the position they're looking for because the dogs don't know what they're doing.


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## sassafras

TorachiKatashi said:


> Just because it's not traditional Obedience doesn't mean the dogs shouldn't be trained. I could go grab any random dog from the SPCA who has never had a day of training and get a 85+ score in Rally Novice in CKC just by "luring" them all around the ring, but that tarnishes the sport for the teams who have actually put the effort in. I don't expect Rally teams to be a sharp and crisp and professional as Obedience teams, but I do expect them to respect their sport, their fellow competitors, and act like they've actually tried. A lot of Obedience people look down on Rally, and despite being a Rally competitor myself, I completely understand why.


Honestly, I don't agree that that you could grab any random dog from the SPCA and get an 85+ by luring. There's no need to exaggerate to put others down. Who cares if traditional obedience people look down on it? Who cares if everyone isn't as serious as you? It's just people trying to enjoy their dogs, just like people involved in all sorts of sports. What you see as a lack of respect or not trying may be someone who is a beginner without much ring experience, who is anxious, a dog and/or person at their first trial, a dog having a bad day, whatever. Why not assume that person is going to take a lesson from the experience instead of that they aren't trying or haven't tried to train their dog or have no respect for the sport? At least they are there trying things with their dog. 



> When you're holding your fingers together an inch in front of your dogs nose and dragging them into position and saying "Look! Look what I have!" that's pretending to hold a treat.


Well I hope this is a general "you."  



> That's fine, if that's your standard you want to work towards, good for you. My point was that people who need to pretend to hold food to lure their dogs into a front rarely ever get the position they're looking for because the dogs don't know what they're doing.


That's fine. That may be what you _meant_, but it wasn't what you _said_. And if that's the standard they want to work on, why worry about what they are doing? Worry about what you and your dog are doing.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest

Ah the snobbery of the competitive world over.. things dogs do. This sort of thing is exactly why I have no interest in competing. Some people ruin fun things for dogs? Color me shocked.


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## Poly

TorachiKatashi said:


> Oh, no, AKC and CKC have never allowed food in the ring for Rally - but they do allow you to pretend to be holding food between your fingers to "lure" your dog everywhere, which you cannot do in the organizations that allow food. .


According to the latest AKC Rally Rules, *luring* is a substantial deduction (6-10 points).

*Luring* is defined as "the appearance of having a reward in hand. e.g. holding the thumb and first two fingers together as if holding a treat. No treat need be present."

Rally is supposed to be much less formal then competition obedience, but IMO that's not really the best way to look at it. I think it's better to consider Rally as a sport in its own right and not some sort of scaled-down version of Obedience. 

In general, in Rally, handlers are permitted to talk, praise, encourage, give additional commands and/or signals using one or both arms, clap their hands, pat their legs or use any verbal means of encouragement (No clapping or patting in RE, however). 

In other words, aside from those very mild restrictions, hand signals in Rally can be almost anything that you want at just about any time you want to use one - you are not confined by strict rules as you are in Obedience. Even before the AKC Rally rules were changed to penalize it, _there was absolutely no reason to include a luring gesture in your hand signals._ It was - and still is - just lazy training.


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## Pawzk9

It's the judge's call wheter the rules are being followed and whether a qualifying score has been earned. It makes me sad for the sports that many exibitors spend so much time worrying about everyone besides themselves and their own dog
What ever happened to take pride in one's own partnership and accomplishments? What happened to just a modicum of good sportsmanship that makes one stop and think before dumping on someone else's proud accomplishment? In 
ASCA recently, there were a couple of changes offerd in obedience One was that dogs of advanced age (I would have preferred 9 to 7, but that was the majority opinion toallow senior dogs to jump four inches less than young dogs with better lubricated joints. The second change was an alternative (not a substitute) for out of sight long sits and down, where many people have been concerned about the saftey of their dogs when their were dogs who might cause harm also in the group. You would have thought that the world was going to end, ASCA obedience was ruined and everything was being dumbed down. This was all coming from a handful of people who were more interested in having their dogs win than allowing the membership a say. Interestingly, the most vocal of the lot thought lowering jump hights was "dumbing down obedience". But of course be perfectly fine if we let everybody lower the bar so no older dog could possibly have a perceived advantage.Guess what? If she trains to the level she wants and her dog goes well, that's all she needs. One of the things that first drew me to obedience was that it is a "personal best" sort of thing. You're competing against a standard and against yourself. Nobody else matters, and we can be happy for everyone who met their personal goals. Even if we consider our goals "more worthy". That was a while back. It seems like good sportsmanship just gets harder and harder to find. And I think that hurts the sport, hurts newcomers feelings, and discourages participation. Thats really too bad. It's not rocket science or world peace. It's an avenue to teach your dog new things and have a good time. Not everyone is setting their sight on National champion or OTCH. EVERYONE's goals should be respected. But the bad sports can be very loud at times. When I came into dog sports there weren't very many venues for me to participate and not many sports. People can choose now between organizations springing up every day and new sports almost as frequently. If obedience people are perceived as sour and poor sports, people simply will go to more welcoming venues and sports and obedience will become a ghost town. Because I think it is a very beautiful sport and it can be fun for handler and dog. And because it was my first sport


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## Salina

I am officially hooked...rally and obedience...my new favorite hobby  i never planned on going to trials, but i think i will sign up for one in february... Wish me luck *lol*


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## sassafras

Squash got his second leg towards his RN today.  Small potatoes, but an accomplishment for a greenhorn trainer like me.


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## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> Squash got his second leg towards his RN today.  Small potatoes, but an accomplishment for a greenhorn trainer like me.


Congrats!!


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## Salina

Congrats !!! :-D


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## DJEtzel

Recon's coming along very well with rear end awareness and retreival of the dumbbell. We're still working with a tiny plastic dumbbell, but he's getting it. He will retreive it and bring it back, we're working on holding onto it when he sits. 'Cause, you know... you can't move and hold onto something while you're being asked to do something else.  The perch work looks great, but he still can't walk straight doing lure work in a heel position. The herder in him just wants to crab step still. So that's a work in progress. 



sassafras said:


> Squash got his second leg towards his RN today.  Small potatoes, but an accomplishment for a greenhorn trainer like me.


Congratulations! Have you gotten a board or display of some sort to start collecting/displaying his ribbons in for everyone to see?


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## trainingjunkie

Huge Congratulations!

Way to Go!


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## Miss Bugs

congrats! miss Gem has her next trial in march fingers crossed for her CRN  official practices start up again this week! she just needs to Q both days which barring any stupid mistakes of mine should be easy lol


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## Miss Bugs

ok, so Gems Rally practice started tonight..and I gotta be honest..I really wish there was another club that offered anything at all in time frames that I can do, because these folks have no idea what they are doing and it drives me nuts! like they harp on things to the point of stress, like Gem has all over novice down solid, even the "hard" exercises like left pivots and right side steps are her favourite, but after doing the same exercise 30 times in a row she stops doing it properly and THAT is the example they choose to harp on, "she needs to work on that" no...she has worked on it too much, that's the problem! then they brought out the broad jumps for the excellence folks to work on, and told me to try it out with Gem...I was confused..Gem doesn't even know the word jump and they want me to do a full sized broad jump with her with no pre-amble? like..shouldn't we be working up? the instructor herself has issues with it with her dog, she hasn't been able to get her excellence title because her dog keeps walking on the broad jump and she just keeps sending her dog over the full size over and over and only rewarding proper jumps, but I mean by not dropping the size she is still encouraging her dog to walk on the boards, she shouldn't be giving her dog a chance to walk on the boards in the first place. Gem is a large dog, a full size broad jump is not small for her size, now she did the full broad jump perfect right off..but I would prefer to start her like a normal human being, ya know...so my dog doesn't start walking on the broad jump too! :doh:


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## Poly

Miss Bugs said:


> ok, so Gems Rally practice started tonight..and I gotta be honest..I really wish there was another club that offered anything at all in time frames that I can do, because these folks have no idea what they are doing and it drives me nuts! like they harp on things to the point of stress, like Gem has all over novice down solid, even the "hard" exercises like left pivots and right side steps are her favourite, but after doing the same exercise 30 times in a row she stops doing it properly and THAT is the example they choose to harp on,



repeat 30 times??? Not good practice. For any one training session, the most should be *three* repeats per exercise. If your dog is getting bored with the "by-the-book" exercises, consider substituting appropriate "games" for some or all of the "by-the-book" exercises. 

It may be necessary to use only games in some sessions, especially at the beginning. "Games" include, among other things, breaking down the exercises into component parts and just working on one or two parts separately rather than always working on a complete station. ('shaping', 'back-chaining', 'middle-out'). 

Games can also include working on those piece-parts of an exercise that need tightening up. I have no problem with a trainer identifying a station or parts of a station that need more work or that seem to be regressing in performance. But it must be done in the right context.

Even when you think that you and your dog have have the complete station well learned, it may be advantageous to_ go back_ to games or shaping or back-chaining from time-to-time. This is NOT a regression - it's actually an important part of training.

Also, once you've learned enough stations to run a course, it's important to start incorporating complete courses in your rally training. The idea of a 'course' flowing from station to station, rather than a series of separate exercises, is an important part of rally training. 

I only addressed one part of your message. I didn't want to quote the whole thing. However, my overall impression is that these people aren't doing it right.


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## trainingjunkie

Last night, my dog started to struggle on the Rally courses. There was a lot of commotion which was making it too hard for her to concentrate. So, on our third crack at the course, I took my time and just did pretty, flowing heeling and skipped all the signs. She was able to work very well once she could just get herself in the groove. 

Point is: you have to adapt to your dog. Just because the class is doing one thing doesn't mean that you have to. The instructors lay a format, but the owners get to tweak it to fit their own needs. Never be afraid to do what' right for your dog. In a class setting, there are a bunch of students. Some need drilling, some don't. No one can accomodate everyone. Just attend to your dog in the manner that best serves him and politely ignore the rest.


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## sassafras

30 times? Holy crap. On a typical night at my club we run 3 different courses and that's it unless you want to practice a specific exercise. I can't even imagine practicing ANY skill 30 times in a row.


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## Miss Bugs

we were there for over an hour and worked on only 4 exersizes (officially, when she got stressed I ignored them and did my own thing) neither gem or I are new to this, we have already been competing, trials are just so far and few between here that I prefer use a class just to get her back into the groove. I just get irritated when they push issues or push methodes on me, for example gem has an exellent side step but after so many reps she starts moving slightly parallel so the instructer tries pushing me to use a wooden dowel as a guide to get her butt in....no matter how many times I tell her no, gem does not respond well to "guiding" and she works very well and quickly just figering things out on her own, she just keeps pushing it, telling me if I teach her to target the dowell it won be scary etc... apperently not getting that I have no interest in using guides to teach her anything and I don't need to, even stressed her side step is never out of qualifying bounds, I'm not concerned about it!


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## trainingjunkie

I'm with you on all of the props and guides. I hate them. It' always a battle.

Last night, my instructor insisted that I run my hands down my dog's body when she hit perfect fronts to make her more aware of the perfect position. I dodged as long as I could. My dog has had a stroke, so I believe that consistent, flawless fronts are not going to be possible for us. They are often perfect, but with limited mobility, I am going to have to accept a few flaws. Anyway, finally, I relented and my dog backed up and walked away when I tried to touch her. She HATES to be touched when she's working. I then brought her to the instructor and told her to touch my dog. My dog wouldn't let her touch her. THEN, the instructor told me that I couldn't do "stand for exam" with "a dog like that." So I cued a stand for exam and my dog was perfect. It was a stupid diversion that interupted training, but finally the trainer accepted that running my hands down my dog for being correct was a bad plan in our case. 

I wish there was a polite way to ask intructors to just leave you alone.


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## Salina

so i have question: where do you leave your dog while looking at the course? in the car? or do you always bring someone along that can watch your dog?


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## elrohwen

I'm not nearly at the level you guys are, but I've had similar situations in my training classes with the physical manipulation and I find it really frustrating. I just don't think dogs learn much through manual manipulation and the only time I plan to do that with my dog is for conformation stacking and grooming so he will allow me to move him around. At the training place I go, the general rule is that if your dog breaks a sit or down, you quietly place them back in the position, without treating, so that they don't learn to pop up and go back down for an additional treat. Now, I understand where they're coming from, but when Watson pops up it's because he's trying to figure out what I want. If I just wait, he will figure out that I wanted him back in a down or sit position, I tell him he's done the right thing (still no treat) and we go back to practicing our "stay". I like that he's using his brain to figure out what I want.

A couple times the trainers were demoing with him and tried to manually place him and he just squirmed and fought it. He's an extremely touchy and cuddly dog normally, but he just doesn't understand manipulation and will figure it out on his own given the chance. After watching me work with him, they've given up telling me to manually place him and just let me do it my way. Haha


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## sassafras

trainingjunkie said:


> I wish there was a polite way to ask intructors to just leave you alone.


I have just told instructors "Nope, I'm not doing it that way" before. Don't know how polite I was (although I didn't go out of my way to be _impolite_, just stated it matter of factly) but I've never gotten an argument back. 



Salina said:


> so i have question: where do you leave your dog while looking at the course? in the car? or do you always bring someone along that can watch your dog?


Do you mean at class or at a trial? At class there are leash hooks all around the perimeter of the room where you can temporarily tether your dog while you walk the course, or for dogs who are reliable enough their owners just put them in a down stay. At trials (all of two trials I've been to LOL although we've also done the CAT which is a similar environment), I bring a portable crate and my husband comes with me as well.


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## Salina

at a trial. i've never been to one and I will probably go by myself. it will be too warm to leave the dog in the car i think...depends on the weather.


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## trainingjunkie

Salina said:


> so i have question: where do you leave your dog while looking at the course? in the car? or do you always bring someone along that can watch your dog?


My polished dogs do down-stays while I walk the course. I put my youngster in a crate that I bring to class. When I train, I work 3 dogs, so I bring 2 large soft-crates so that the non-working dogs can just relax and nap while I work the other dogs. Otherwise, they have to watch the environment too much and it takes too much out of them.


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## trainingjunkie

At a trial, I bring 3 soft crates for my 3 dogs. I line them all up in a row and then I put a sheet over all 3 crates so that my dogs don't have to deal with dogs staring at them from the sides but they can still see each other. If I am only trialing one dog, I cover 80% of the front of the crate and all of the sides. That way, my dog can peek out of he wants to but dogs walking by are less likely to stare in.

If you are new to competing, I would bring a "real" crate the first few times so you can learn how your dog handles the confinement. If your dog tries to escape or is crate reactive, a real crate is better than a soft crate. I brought a "real" crate for my puppy til she was 15 months old and had been to about 10 trials.


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## Salina

Oh ok. Thanks a lot for the info  i guess i will need to buy a crate then


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> If you are new to competing, I would bring a "real" crate the first few times so you can learn how your dog handles the confinement. If your dog tries to escape or is crate reactive, a real crate is better than a soft crate. I brought a "real" crate for my puppy til she was 15 months old and had been to about 10 trials.


Good advice. My breeder's dog (who was #1 welshie in his day) busted through a soft crate to get to her during a show. Haha


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## trainingjunkie

A few trials ago, I was supposed to be in two rings at the same time. I finished with one dog and ran and switched dogs out very quickly to make it to the other ring. My little whippet and I were about to enter the ring when an unleashed, ownerless big black dog came running up to us and tackled my whippet. I was super pissed off that some moron let their dog loose. 

Then I looked again. It was MY dog. In my rush, I forgot to zip the crate after he crated himself up while I was busy with my whippet. Thank doG that my dog had the good sense to ignore everything/everyone else and come find me.


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## elrohwen

Hahaha. That's awesome. I can just imagine his thought process of going into his crate, then realizing you were gone and it was open and thinking, "Hmm, I should go find mom! This will be fun!"


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## DJEtzel

Salina said:


> at a trial. i've never been to one and I will probably go by myself. it will be too warm to leave the dog in the car i think...depends on the weather.


I leave Frag in the car if the weather is nice. He's a screamer (being a GSD) so he will scream and break out of a crate if there is other stuff going on and I'm not there to correct him. Car's an easy place to keep him quiet and calm.



trainingjunkie said:


> A few trials ago, I was supposed to be in two rings at the same time. I finished with one dog and ran and switched dogs out very quickly to make it to the other ring. My little whippet and I were about to enter the ring when an unleashed, ownerless big black dog came running up to us and tackled my whippet. I was super pissed off that some moron let their dog loose.
> 
> Then I looked again. It was MY dog. In my rush, I forgot to zip the crate after he crated himself up while I was busy with my whippet. Thank doG that my dog had the good sense to ignore everything/everyone else and come find me.


Oh my gosh! Did your whippet perform ok? I imagine the tackle was more of a friendly pack play than attack, correct? Things happen!


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## trainingjunkie

The tackle was good-natured! Just pals being pals!

And my whippet did great once I got my other dog tucked away! She's a driven and tough little cookie! And she loves drama.


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## 3doglady

I signed up for my first Rally competition with Leann. Pebbles is coming along, but gets a bit freaked out in new environments, so her's will be later in the year.

I have ring time scheduled to practice until the event. Any tips or suggestions for a first timer? Things that worked for you or you wish you hadn't done?


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## trainingjunkie

Drive a new place every day, inside or out, and practice nice heeling for 3 minutes. Let your dog learn that focused heeling is awesome and can be done EVERYWHERE. You will never regret it.

On the day of the show, go early and let your dog walk around for a little while on a loose leash, taking it all in. After your dog is calm, crate your dog, taking him out several times to heel for a few minutes at a time, putting him back as soon as you're done. Let him get used to the idea that he is going to come out of the crate, work briefly, and then go back. If you leave them out too long, they can stress or go flat. If you don't take them out enough, the get over-whelmed in the ring. It's a balancing act.


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## Miss Bugs

tip I learned from Gems first trial... dont bring anything exiting that you dont bring for practice. treats are allowed in novice CARO and I brought ham and cheese instead of her usual kibble. .it triggered her "somethings different" radar, which screwed her up and we had a really hard time starting.


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## 3doglady

trainingjunkie said:


> Drive a new place every day, inside or out, and practice nice heeling for 3 minutes. Let your dog learn that focused heeling is awesome and can be done EVERYWHERE. You will never regret it.
> 
> On the day of the show, go early and let your dog walk around for a little while on a loose leash, taking it all in. After your dog is calm, crate your dog, taking him out several times to heel for a few minutes at a time, putting him back as soon as you're done. Let him get used to the idea that he is going to come out of the crate, work briefly, and then go back. If you leave them out too long, they can stress or go flat. If you don't take them out enough, the get over-whelmed in the ring. It's a balancing act.





Miss Bugs said:


> tip I learned from Gems first trial... dont bring anything exiting that you dont bring for practice. treats are allowed in novice CARO and I brought ham and cheese instead of her usual kibble. .it triggered her "somethings different" radar, which screwed her up and we had a really hard time starting.


Thank you both for your suggestions. They all sound like good advice. 

Miss Bugs, I have been experimenting with left over ham latetly - lol.

TJ - Great advice all around. I'll see what I can do to get out to different places for practice. I especially like the idea, of crating for short periods of time and working with her intermittently. That will go a long way with Leann.


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## Shoul

Simon just finished another set of Rally-o classes and he's been amazing! Maybe it's partially due to him being close to the 1-year mark, but his training has really started to show through, even during our regular walks.
Here was his graduation round today. There was actually no food in my hand. Small victories! :clap2:






We'll also be doing our first Fun Match this Sunday! Hopefully I can keep my nerves intact.


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## sassafras

Nice!



Shoul said:


> We'll also be doing our first Fun Match this Sunday! Hopefully I can keep my nerves intact.


You'll be fine, just relax. 


Tonight, Squash actually did the offset figure 8 with distractions without getting distracted. Other than a quick glance he held attention and stayed in position. Small victories, indeed! (This has really been a struggle for him, he's so dang nosy.)


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## Miss Bugs

whew, ok, second practice tonight, MUCH better, the lady that instructed last time, while she IS an instructor with the club, was only filling in last week, as the real instructor couldn't not make it into town(we have had some pretty nasty weather) anyway I liked her MUCH better..she trains the way I do..with common sense.. lol ie- off leash(so you dont rely on it), everything a heel, no special commands except for the obvious..I never understood the concept of teaching my dog a different command and giving advanced warning of turns and such..if my dog is doing a proper heel I shouldn't need a "left turn" "right turn" command, it's ALL Heeling is it not? lol. she teaches most things via shaping and games, and had some good idea's to avoid patterns, such as practising fronts and finishes entirely separate, so she doesn't go "oh, front always means I end up in heel, so I will walk in front, sit, bounce up and and walk around or swing" . we also worked on stand for exam..I started doing this with Gem when she was a pup and she was fine, but then I asked a girl at work(a serious minded person, so she wouldn't do something stupid), I asked her to touch her for me..she agree'd..then walked over, suddenly grabbed her and screamed boo in her face..then left the room! she was the last person I would have expected to pull a stunt like that, but it completely screwed her up, and now Gem is terrified of someone approaching her on a stand stay(and I don't blame her!), so we worked on just standing toe to toe with her and giving her treats for watching me as people simply walked past her, after just a few minutes and people walking closer and closer to her, she stopped flinching and shuffling away, still cant touch her, but that's ok, its only the first step and she made lots of progress overcoming her fear already.


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## Poly

Miss Bugs said:


> I never understood the concept of teaching my dog a different command and giving advanced warning of turns and such..if my dog is doing a proper heel I shouldn't need a "left turn" "right turn" command, it's ALL Heeling is it not? .


Sounds all good, but I just wanted to comment on this one small part. 

In Rally-O, the point is to demonstrate working as a team. You can use any words and almost any gestures that you want to, and pretty much whenever you want. Some teams do work mostly silently and use only a few commands and signals, but many handlers use encouragement throughout the whole course , both in sounds/words and in gestures. I wouldn't want to give the impression that you MUST work silently or cannot use whatever signals you want.

At the Novice level, it IS pretty much all "heeling", turns and positions. However, even at the Novice level, you _will _ probably have to cue the positions and the fronts, and - depending on your dog- cue some of the turns as well. The 'shutz turn' in particular can be troublesome without a cue of some kind, and some handlers do give an 'advance warning' when it's coming up. Above Novice, you really do have to use cues - verbal and/or signals - during many of the exercises. 

Good luck in Rally-O - it can be great fun .


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## Miss Bugs

oh I know lol thats not the sort of thing I meant...I meant giving advanced comands that you gonna turn right..heeling encouragement I dont object too at all but a left turn is still a heel!


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## sassafras

Ha, I use directional commands when we're heeling. Just out of habit, I guess, since he needs to have a solid gee/haw for mushing I am constantly practicing them well before turns even just on walks and such.


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## Miss Bugs

lol its more-so commands like "heel..left turn..heel...circle right....heel....270 left...heel...pivot left...heel...turn right...heel" etc.. I don't see the point is every single type of turn having its own command when its ALL heeling, ya know? if I just say Heel and encourage and talk to her, then she is paying attention to what we are doing, and doesn't need to know that we are doing a 180 and not a 360 if that makes more sense as to my meaning?


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## sassafras

Oh god no, I don't have a different command for all of those things. But if we are going to turn left in any way I do often say HAW and if we are turning right in any way I do often say GEE. Like I said, I think it's mostly out of my habit than anything else. As his pivots and heeling improve I don't think he really needs it, it's just very ingrained in me.


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## trainingjunkie

If were are doing a left anything, I say "Get in" and if we are doing more than a 90 degree pivot or turn to the right, I say "Hurry." In the obedience ring, I need to be silent, but in the Rally ring, I can help them succeed, so I do.


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## Miss Bugs

ya, lots of people around here say "get in" for anything to the left, that doesn't bother me at all, thats more of a general "hey swing your butt" reminder lol, for Gem until she was solid on it, I used to use her swing command for left turns to remind her that she needed to swing her rear, I don't need it anymore though..now that she understands the swinging her butt concept in contexts other then a swing finish, she thinks its the funnest thing in the world and a basic "heel" suffices lol

to be fair though I am a perfectionist and the only reason I am doing Rally is because Obedience wasn't an option lol


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## trainingjunkie

I gotta get video of my male. We almost run the rally course so we can win on time. The verbals are helpful because of the speed that we use. It's sorta silly but it sure is fun!


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## lil_fuzzy

So I've decided to get into rally-o with Pixie, because she pretty much knows it all anyway and I have a soft spot for obedience.

Just curious about duration, because you have to go the whole way without rewarding (in formal obedience at least you can back chain). Is it just a matter of teaching the dog to go longer and longer between rewards, or do you work on fluency so that the dog will keep performing the behaviour forever in the hopes of getting a reward, or what?

Do you use motivational games, do you teach the dog to enjoy playing with you without any toys etc. Basically, how do you keep the dog motivated? (I know about the different ways of building duration, just curious about personal experience using the different methods.)


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## trainingjunkie

A course usually takes less than a minute to complete, so I just teach my dogs to expect a jackpot at the end rather than reinforcement for each little piece. I do rally with three dogs. One, I just reward at then end with no drama. Another, I show her her food and toy at ringside or crateside and sort of make a ritual of it. My male has such a history of reinforcement that he actually finds doing the signs to be wildly reinforcing. Because of his extensive history in the ring, he know that the rewards will come but loves the preformance itself. He's super easy to be with in the rally ring. (He gets pretty amped in agility and can get a bit over-aroused in obedience as well...) 

When training originally, I reinforce a lot for the components. When getting ready for trial, I delay the reinforcement but I give a ton of it as a jackpot. They learn that no-reward for the pieces predicts heavy reward at the end.

Too murky to be useful?


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## sassafras

Personally, this is what I do... where we train, we typically run 3 practice courses in an evening. When we first started there, I would treat after every exercise. Then when he started to really get the hang of it and started having fun, every 2-3, then every 4-5... and so on. If we are working on a skill he hasn't mastered yet (although we are Novice level, where we train signs of all levels mixed in on every course), he correctly does something we've struggled with, or there's something distracting that he works through, I will treat him after that exercise (like the first time he successfully ignored the distractions on a figure 8 with distractions). Otherwise I just give a big jackpot at the end of the course. And I ALWAYS give him a verbal "good!" or "nice!" after every correctly performed exercise.


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## lil_fuzzy

trainingjunkie said:


> A course usually takes less than a minute to complete, so I just teach my dogs to expect a jackpot at the end rather than reinforcement for each little piece. I do rally with three dogs. One, I just reward at then end with no drama. Another, I show her her food and toy at ringside or crateside and sort of make a ritual of it. My male has such a history of reinforcement that he actually finds doing the signs to be wildly reinforcing. Because of his extensive history in the ring, he know that the rewards will come but loves the preformance itself. He's super easy to be with in the rally ring. (He gets pretty amped in agility and can get a bit over-aroused in obedience as well...)
> 
> When training originally, I reinforce a lot for the components. When getting ready for trial, I delay the reinforcement but I give a ton of it as a jackpot. They learn that no-reward for the pieces predicts heavy reward at the end.
> 
> Too murky to be useful?


That makes sense  I didn't consider that the time spent in the ring is a lot less than for formal obedience, so I guess just slowly building duration would work well and not be all that hard to do. Add setting up a ring and teach the dog that there's a jackpot on the outside, and it's all good 



sassafras said:


> Personally, this is what I do... where we train, we typically run 3 practice courses in an evening. When we first started there, I would treat after every exercise. Then when he started to really get the hang of it and started having fun, every 2-3, then every 4-5... and so on. If we are working on a skill he hasn't mastered yet (although we are Novice level, where we train signs of all levels mixed in on every course), he correctly does something we've struggled with, or there's something distracting that he works through, I will treat him after that exercise (like the first time he successfully ignored the distractions on a figure 8 with distractions). Otherwise I just give a big jackpot at the end of the course. And I ALWAYS give him a verbal "good!" or "nice!" after every correctly performed exercise.


It would be great to have an actual ring set up so every training session is like a trial but where you get to reward when you see fit  That would probably be the best way to do it. Unfortunately there are no classes around here, so I'm on my own  (There are obedience classes, but they focus on formal obedience, not rally).


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## trainingjunkie

I only work a ring once a week, even if we are getting ready to trial. The dog's don't read the signs! So what I do is just have a string of exercises in my head and work in a flat space. It doesn't make the least bit of difference to any of my dogs. It's about duration, not signs or space. All of this signs are free on the AKC website. You can print them off as you see fit. It's good for them to move about the "gear" occasionally, but really, you want your dog to be entirely cueing off of you.

Good luck! It's a lot of fun! Well, it's not always a lot of fun, but it has the potential to be!


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## TorachiKatashi

As far as cues, I'm always mindful not to use any verbal cues that I wouldn't be allowed to use in Obedience.

That said, with proper footwork, you're already giving your dog a "left turn" cue when you left shoulder goes back and your right shoulder comes forwards. Shoulders are important!

Something fun I like to do if/when I'm not working on a course or I'm in a tight space is to write a series of exercises down and have someone read them to me like Obedience heeling. It's a lot of fun to see how well you remember the signs if you only get the text without the pictures. It's also good distraction training; no doubt when you go into the ring at a trial there's going to be some oblivious jerk speaking WAY TOO LOUDLY right next to the ring gate.


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## sassafras

lil_fuzzy said:


> It would be great to have an actual ring set up so every training session is like a trial but where you get to reward when you see fit  That would probably be the best way to do it. Unfortunately there are no classes around here, so I'm on my own  (There are obedience classes, but they focus on formal obedience, not rally).


We have class once every other week. At home if I am practicing a specific exercise I will reward it like any other skill I'm working on (this week we worked hard on the moving down, for example). I don't have a big enough space in my home to do anything approaching a real course, but I will string 2-4 exercises together and reward at the end of the sequence. 

When the weather is more cooperative (e.g. not winter), I will string together a longer sequence of exercises in the yard but I don't set up a formal course, I just think of several things I want to practice.


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## TorachiKatashi

Gaaaah. Moving Down. Bane of my existence. Bear is basically determined to never do a Moving Down for the rest of his life if he can help it.

"Uh... Nuh uh. _You_ go lie down, lady. I don't care how many times you point at the floor. >=/"


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## Miss Bugs

lol Gem LOVES moving down my biggest issue with moving down is convincing her to only do it when I ask! side step too she loves it and has a perfectly strait sidestep...but she keeps stepping on my foot in the process


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## sassafras

Squash is.... tall. Even at his crispest, it takes him a bit of time to get into a down and I can be halfway to Siberia before he's fully down if I'm walking at a normal pace. It's made the moving down a challenge for sure. I had to learn a bizarre slow motion gait that I'm slowly increasing back to normal speed now that he seems to grok the basic concept.


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## lil_fuzzy

trainingjunkie said:


> I only work a ring once a week, even if we are getting ready to trial. The dog's don't read the signs! So what I do is just have a string of exercises in my head and work in a flat space. It doesn't make the least bit of difference to any of my dogs. It's about duration, not signs or space. All of this signs are free on the AKC website. You can print them off as you see fit. It's good for them to move about the "gear" occasionally, but really, you want your dog to be entirely cueing off of you.
> 
> Good luck! It's a lot of fun! Well, it's not always a lot of fun, but it has the potential to be!


I was thinking that working in a ring in an environment that simulates a trial, prevents the dog from catching on to "oh it's a trial, no treats then" as opposed to at home where he does get treats, i.e. ring wise. Even if it's only once in a while, I would think it's useful and beneficial to teach the dog that even though it's a trial, there is a reward to be had, just not every time.


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## trainingjunkie

If I lived in a different area or had access to various courses, I would SO be there! But, since I don't, I just make due! 

I haven't had any real touble about the "no treats" thing. 

Now, in AGILITY, it's a whole new ballgame! I can't get my dog to settle down on an actual course, but he runs like a pro in practice.  I am so grateful that he is better in obedience and rally!


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## DJEtzel

Moving downs are Frag's favorite. Getting him to stand still without moving? THAT'S a challenge. We'll likely never be able to show in OB just because of the SFE though... People he can't meet just bending over and grabbing him everywhere will likely not fly. And a single growl and we're out of the sport for good, possibly me as well depending on venue. It was nerve wracking enough getting him measured for agility!


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## TorachiKatashi

Honestly, I've never liked the exams in Obedience. There are quite a few breeds (and GSDs certainly come to mind, especially since my own GSD mix reacts the exact same way as yours) who are simply _not_ bred to happily accept that sort of thing. And really, aside from a vet or a groomer (and those are pretty high-stress situations so I don't even count it anyways,) how often is some random stranger going to come up and touch my dog's butt? I think he's perfectly within his rights to spin around and try to keep his butt away from them. At the very least, I think we should be able to stand right in front of them/kneel next to them as in Conformation.


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## Miss Bugs

im confused. ..do you guys not have a halt stand leave for exam in rally? there is in CARO... the 3 main "different" exercises I have to teach for advanced is stand for exam, moving down walk around and halt sit, run away while calling to front....

or am I just reading your posts wrong? lol


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## Miss Bugs

i def. cant get away with not practicing around signs, Gem is great in just an open space, but throw signs and cones into the area and she completly loses concentration!


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## TorachiKatashi

Nope, no SFE in AKC/CKC Rally. CARO has a lot of weird signs that AKC/CKC Rally doesn't have (And, to be fair, AKC has a lot of signs CKC doesn't have but from what I've heard that will be changing in the future.)

Bear will hopefully get his Novice CARO title in the next couple of years, but after that he won't be able to do Advanced because of the SFE.


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## DJEtzel

TorachiKatashi said:


> Honestly, I've never liked the exams in Obedience. There are quite a few breeds (and GSDs certainly come to mind, especially since my own GSD mix reacts the exact same way as yours) who are simply _not_ bred to happily accept that sort of thing. And really, aside from a vet or a groomer (and those are pretty high-stress situations so I don't even count it anyways,) how often is some random stranger going to come up and touch my dog's butt? I think he's perfectly within his rights to spin around and try to keep his butt away from them. At the very least, I think we should be able to stand right in front of them/kneel next to them as in Conformation.


I agree so much. I mean, yeah, a lot of the strong-nerved herders can TOLERATE it, but still don't LIKE it one bit and are obviously uncomfortable with that. It's going against their personalities/traits so much. And then through a less-than-stellar-nerved dog into it and you may get growling. Frag's great about tolerating it with the right people and OFF leash, but he hates being put on the spot and told not to move and be touched. It's just not him. We have surprisingly gotten away without any growling at the last few vet visits we've had, which is great, but I still don't think I'd risk a STE when I'm not there to physically correct my dog if he's thinking about biting a judge's face.  Not that he's ever lunged or bitten of course, but there is a first time for everything and I know he's not above it.


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## Miss Bugs

> Nope, no SFE in AKC/CKC Rally. CARO has a lot of weird signs that AKC/CKC Rally doesn't have (And, to be fair, AKC has a lot of signs CKC doesn't have but from what I've heard that will be changing in the future.)
> 
> Bear will hopefully get his Novice CARO title in the next couple of years, but after that he won't be able to do Advanced because of the SFE.


interesting, I didn't know that! CARO is the only game I can play around here so its the only one I know, I just assumed SFE was usual sign lol. Gem is a GSD X Heeler, she is pretty spooky about it right now, but we are working on it. she doesn't have to tolerate being molested by a judge, just tolerate a judge briefly and lightly brushing their hand along her side, she had to tolerate more then that to get her CGN. but I know its going to take a bit, that's why I am working on it now, she still needs 2 legs for her Novice and trials are few and far between around here(like 2, MAYBE 3 a year) so I have lots of time to work on it.


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## TorachiKatashi

Miss Bugs said:


> interesting, I didn't know that! CARO is the only game I can play around here so its the only one I know, I just assumed SFE was usual sign lol. Gem is a GSD X Heeler, she is pretty spooky about it right now, but we are working on it. she doesn't have to tolerate being molested by a judge, just tolerate a judge briefly and lightly brushing their hand along her side, she had to tolerate more then that to get her CGN. but I know its going to take a bit, that's why I am working on it now, she still needs 2 legs for her Novice and trials are few and far between around here(like 2, MAYBE 3 a year) so I have lots of time to work on it.


It's weird, right? Bear had no problem with the exam for his CGN. But I expect it made a difference that I was standing right next to him and not sit feet away.


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## trainingjunkie

There's really no limit to the diversity of challenges between the breeds and no way to really accomodate them all.

My biggest HATRED (and that is the right word) involved the out of sight sits and downs. My lovely pit bull had to sit and down for 8 minutes with me out of sight. I was doing all right with it until the trial where we handlers were behind a corner and I heard all he77 break loose in the ring. Two dogs had an all-out brawl in my ring and there was no way for me to know who was involved. I ran out of the blind and ran back to the ring only to see a dog standing over top of my pit bull. My dog was still holding his down. Turns out, the dog hovering over mine was running away from the fight. The other involved dog had just left the ring. So, I guess we were just fine. However, the thought of what "could have been" had me near puking.

My dog doesn't start anything, but asking him to watch a brawl and stay down under one of the involved parties seems a bit much. I am so glad we have our CDX. Thanks to this experience, I will not be seeking a UDX. I don't think that the rules need to change, but I do think we all have to understand our dogs and know what we can and can't do with them.


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## TorachiKatashi

You're not the only one. The majority of people I know detest the Groups. A lot of them only got their Novice titles then stopped because they won't do the Out of Sights. A few won't even do Novice. I've personally witnessed TWO fights in the Novice Group ring, with two completely different sets of dogs. I also personally know at least one dog who had to retire from Obedience after being attacked in Groups and never quite recovering. Bear wouldn't go to another dog, but if another dog approached him, you can be darn sure he would tell them off. I practice Groups with my friends' dogs who I know are solid, but I'll never do a Group at a trial, ever.


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## trainingjunkie

I never worry if I am in sight as I can call my dog out of a mess. But out of sight is tough. My pit bull has done 13 out of sight group sets and there was only one incident and he wasn't a part of it. I will go ahead and do groups with my other two as well. However, I think for my next dogs, I will enter them as "B" dogs rather than as "A" dogs. There seems to be a whole lot less drama in the "B" ring. Also, there are two trial sites that I really like where you are removed but can still see your dogs though a dark curtain. I can look after them that way too. And the other option, which I will always employ with my softer dogs is only competing when my husband can go along. There is nothing illegal about him keeping an eye on our dogs safety while I am out of the room. He never once saw me compete with my male, but for my softer females, I will only leave them if he's there. 

I should have probably done all of that for my male, but I just didn't know as much when I started with him. Also, I always sorta knew that he would survive a disaster. I don't know that with my females.


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## elrohwen

I love reading about everyone's experiences. I can't wait to enter the rally or novice ring some day, or at least get to the point where we're really training the exercises rather than fundamental skills.

Long sits and downs, out of sight or not, will be Watson's biggest challenge, I think. He is velcro and if I disappear from sight, he's going to follow. He dislikes duration behaviors in general, and wants to move on to something else, but that will hopefully improve with maturity and practice.

We are working on the fundamentals of SFE in our obedience class right now and his biggest hurdle is not jumping up and licking the "judge" in the face. Luckily, he loves when people bend over him and pet him.


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## DJEtzel

TorachiKatashi said:


> It's weird, right? Bear had no problem with the exam for his CGN. But I expect it made a difference that I was standing right next to him and not sit feet away.


Frag either. He passed his CGC exam with flying colors. It may also help that they get to "meet" (and sniff) the evaluator at points prior to being touched and groomed..


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## Finkie_Mom

Finally got video of the little monster doing some rally! From class tonight. She was a bit distracted as per usual, but it's OK! Getting better every week. Though the spots she's sniffing are drool marks from the AWESOME Newfie who went before us (no, really, that Newfie is fantastic and SO handsome!), so I suppose it's good she wasn't sniffing for no reason????? (She has a history of displacement sniffing)






Also - the jumps are her favorite parts LOL. Moving downs are also super fun.


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## TorachiKatashi

Holy crap. Can I have your dog?

May I ask why you've only gone as far as her RN? That dog backs up better than most RAE dogs I've seen.


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## Finkie_Mom

TorachiKatashi said:


> Holy crap. Can I have your dog?
> 
> May I ask why you've only gone as far as her RN? That dog backs up better than most RAE dogs I've seen.


Yes. I'm shipping her out to you today LOL 

Uhhhhhh I'm paranoid about off leash stuff. Even though she's fine with agility. I dunno. Obedience also makes ME super nervous. I'm hoping to do another session or two of class with her plus go for her BN (woo on leash!) before trying for her RA. My instructor thinks we should enter something soon, which is why you hear her talking about there never really being a course like this in a trial, but I just don't feel ready yet. She's just trying to convince me otherwise


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## Poly

TorachiKatashi said:


> Honestly, I've never liked the exams in Obedience. There are quite a few breeds (and GSDs certainly come to mind, especially since my own GSD mix reacts the exact same way as yours) who are simply _not_ bred to happily accept that sort of thing. And really, aside from a vet or a groomer (and those are pretty high-stress situations so I don't even count it anyways,) how often is some random stranger going to come up and touch my dog's butt? I think he's perfectly within his rights to spin around and try to keep his butt away from them. At the very least, I think we should be able to stand right in front of them/kneel next to them as in Conformation.


That exercise is somewhat of a carry-over from the breed ring. However, it does test the ability of the dog to remain under control and withour resentment when approached and touched by someone they don't know. At the Novice level, the 'exam' is very limited - really not all that much different from what takes place at a CGC test. At the Utility level, it's much more like an actual breed ring examination. 

I disagree that this exercise creates a breed problem for GSDs. I've seen many GSDs compete in obedience and perform these exercises without any problem. 

Also, Schutzhund has a temperament test which includes an examination by a "random stranger", and we know that sport was originally set up for GSDs.

Like any exercises, they need to be trained.


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## DJEtzel

Poly said:


> That exercise is somewhat of a carry-over from the breed ring. However, it does test the ability of the dog to remain under control and withour resentment when approached and touched by someone they don't know. At the Novice level, the 'exam' is very limited - really not all that much different from what takes place at a CGC test. At the Utility level, it's much more like an actual breed ring examination.
> 
> I disagree that this exercise creates a breed problem for GSDs. I've seen many GSDs compete in obedience and perform these exercises without any problem.
> 
> Also, Schutzhund has a temperament test which includes an examination by a "random stranger", and we know that sport was originally set up for GSDs.
> 
> Like any exercises, they need to be trained.


The dogs participating in Schutzhund are solid-nerved dogs. We are talking about the disadvantages of weak-nerved dogs being able to do this. Much harder for them to refrain themselves from what MOST of them are thinking.


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## sassafras

DJEtzel said:


> The dogs participating in Schutzhund are solid-nerved dogs. We are talking about the disadvantages of weak-nerved dogs being able to do this. Much harder for them to refrain themselves from what MOST of them are thinking.


Well then that begs the question - should the exercise be changed to accommodate weak-nerved dogs, or if a dog is too weak-nerved to complete the exercise should it just not be able to achieve the title in question?


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## Poly

Finkie_Mom said:


> Uhhhhhh I'm paranoid about off leash stuff. Even though she's fine with agility. I dunno. Obedience also makes ME super nervous. I'm hoping to do another session or two of class with her plus go for her BN (woo on leash!) before trying for her RA. My instructor thinks we should enter something soon, which is why you hear her talking about there never really being a course like this in a trial, but I just don't feel ready yet. She's just trying to convince me otherwise


You should try entering some show-and-go matches. Rally matches as such are getting hard to find, but obedience matches are around. Even if you don't intend to enter Novice Obedience, you can go into a Novice Obedience show-and-go match and only do the off-leash heeling. Just tell the 'judge' you want to work the off-leash heeling only and that you "may" be doing some off-leash 'doodles'. You won't get all the rally exercises and the stations, of course, but you can work on those during your regular training. You probably *will* get a nice super-long heeling pattern and that should help you over your ring jitters. And if you want to do some 270-turns and U-turns instead of the regular obedience turns, it's your time. Just remember to skip the stays.

You may get a lot of 'advice' to tighten up your heel position, but you know what to do about that.


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## DJEtzel

sassafras said:


> Well then that begs the question - should the exercise be changed to accommodate weak-nerved dogs, or if a dog is too weak-nerved to complete the exercise should it just not be able to achieve the title in question?


But it is a test of obedience, not nerve. If we were interested in competing in a test of nerves, we would be competing in Schutzhund. So yes, I personally think it is unfair that an obedience venue tests nerves as well in such a manner.


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## elrohwen

Finkie_Mom, that was so much fun to watch.


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## sassafras

DJEtzel said:


> But it is a test of obedience, not nerve. If we were interested in competing in a test of nerves, we would be competing in Schutzhund. So yes, I personally think it is unfair that an obedience venue tests nerves as well in such a manner.


Is that exercise only, or even primarily, a test of nerve?


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## DJEtzel

sassafras said:


> Is that exercise only, or even primarily, a test of nerve?


Yes... just like in a CGC exam, the SFE is an exercise to see if your dog will tolerate strangers feeling him in a conformation standard. Just as the exams double as both a test of nerves and physical conformation in the show ring. A dog that doesn't have the nerve to be handled by strange people, swill not point, therefor should not be bred.

eta; they may not have been trying to test the dog's nerve when they thought it up and planned the venues, but that is all it does, as you can not teach a dog to do something if it's nerves won't allow it.


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## sassafras

DJEtzel said:


> eta; they may not have been trying to test the dog's nerve when they thought it up and planned the venues, but that is all it does, as you can not teach a dog to do something if it's nerves won't allow it.


But again, as obedience titles are often used as justification that a dog's temperament/intelligence/whatever is worthy of breeding, why should the expectation be changed so that a dog too nervy to stand for exam can obtain those titles instead of expecting a dog to be able to perform the skill in order to obtain the title? It's a bit like grade inflation, isn't it?


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## DJEtzel

sassafras said:


> But again, as obedience titles are often used as justification that a dog's temperament/intelligence/whatever is worthy of breeding, why should the expectation be changed so that a dog too nervy to stand for exam can obtain those titles instead of expecting a dog to be able to perform the skill in order to obtain the title? It's a bit like grade inflation, isn't it?


Obedience titles are never used as justification for a reputable breeder that a dog should be bred. Working ability, conformation, and sometimes performance events are used. So IMO, the expectation should be changed because it does not signify the dog's level of obedience at all. You want my dog to stand there while someone walks around him, throws a ball, etc. while I'm 6 feet away or out of sight? OK. But touching and grabbing the dog does nothing to highlight it's obedience. It highlights it's nerve which is not the point of the venue at all.


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## sassafras

DJEtzel said:


> Obedience titles are never used as justification for a reputable breeder that a dog should be bred.


Never? Really?


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## DJEtzel

sassafras said:


> Never? Really?


No. Not for my definition of a reputable breeder. Obedience is trained. You cannot take what a dog has learned and say that it should be bred for that purpose. Breeders look into instinct, nerve, and conformation to decide if a dog should be bred as THOSE are the things that are being passed down through lineage. Obedience is not.


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## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> But again, as obedience titles are often used as justification that a dog's temperament/intelligence/whatever is worthy of breeding, why should the expectation be changed so that a dog too nervy to stand for exam can obtain those titles instead of expecting a dog to be able to perform the skill in order to obtain the title? It's a bit like grade inflation, isn't it?


I agree with this. There are plenty of breeders who do use OB or Rally titles as part of their reason to breed certain dogs. Not all breeds of dogs are nerve tested or performance tested and OB and Rally are good ways to show that a dog is generally biddable and has a stable temperament. Sure it's all training. but so are hunt tests - sure the dog needs some instinct for a hunt test, but a lot of the test is training. Agility is also just training, when it comes down to it. Performing at super high levels in these venues takes something more, but most lower level AKC type competitions are reachable by many dogs. That doesn't mean they aren't valid when looking at breeding stock.


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## DJEtzel

elrohwen said:


> I agree with this. There are plenty of breeders who do use OB or Rally titles as part of their reason to breed certain dogs. Not all breeds of dogs are nerve tested or performance tested and OB and Rally are good ways to show that a dog is generally biddable and has a stable temperament. Sure it's all training. but so are hunt tests - sure the dog needs some instinct for a hunt test, but a lot of the test is training. Agility is also just training, when it comes down to it. Performing at super high levels in these venues takes something more, but most lower level AKC type competitions are reachable by many dogs. That doesn't mean they aren't valid when looking at breeding stock.


It means that they do not give a reason to breed the dog. You're right... PLENTY of dogs can early entry level agility, rally, ob titles. Does that mean that Frag should be bred? HAHA.. NO. He could easily be titling HIGH in rally, and MAY even be able to title in OB.. but that is no reason to breed him at all. He's smart... sure. But he doesn't have the nerves for it, the working ability, OR the conformation, and he is a medical nightmare. If a breeder is not doing anything to test the nerve and temperament of the dog along with it's conformation or working ability first and foremost, it should not be breeding. An OB title does NOT make the difference between being bred or not to anyone breeding well with the breed's best interest at heart. It is a hobby for most people, and just an extra brag for breeders when they ARE breeding those dogs.


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## elrohwen

DJEtzel said:


> It means that they do not give a reason to breed the dog. You're right... PLENTY of dogs can early entry level agility titles. Does that mean that Frag should be bred? HAHA.. NO. He could easily be titling HIGH in rally, but that is no reason to breed him at all. He's smart... sure. But he doesn't have the nerves for it, the working ability, OR the conformation, and he is a medical nightmare. If a breeder is not doing anything to test the nerve and temperament of the dog along with it's conformation or working ability first and foremost, it should not be breeding. An OB title does NOT make the difference between being bred or not to anyone breeding well with the breed's best interest at heart. It is a hobby for most people, and just an extra brag for breeders when they ARE breeding those dogs.


No, breeders shouldn't be breeding on an obedience title alone, but it does make a dog stand out compared to one who has only finished in the conformation ring. Outside of titles, temperament and nerve "testing" generally come down to what the breeder tells you about the dog.


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## +two

DJEtzel said:


> The dogs participating in Schutzhund are solid-nerved dogs. We are talking about the disadvantages of weak-nerved dogs being able to do this. Much harder for them to refrain themselves from what MOST of them are thinking.


Weak-nerved dogs shouldn't be earning Rally/Obedience titles if they can't complete the exercises. Earning an OB/Rally title is saying that your dog can perform certain behaviors based on a standard, not that your dog can perform SOME behaviors sometimes, maybe. If you are saying that Frag couldn't, with sufficient training, pass a SFE then Frag doesn't deserve the title. 




DJEtzel said:


> Obedience titles are never used as justification for a reputable breeder that a dog should be bred. Working ability, conformation, and sometimes performance events are used. So IMO, the expectation should be changed because it does not signify the dog's level of obedience at all. You want my dog to stand there while someone walks around him, throws a ball, etc. while I'm 6 feet away or out of sight? OK. But touching and grabbing the dog does nothing to highlight it's obedience. It highlights it's nerve which is not the point of the venue at all.


I disagree with you. Obedience titles most certainly are used by breeders as justification for breeding. Would I buy a dog that only had an OB title and no other merit? No. But I do look for OB titles in breeding pairs as testament to that dogs ability to perform obedience tasks. Also, I am not sure where you are training and competing but I have never seen a judge/evaluator grab a dog. My SFE's have always been done with respect to the dog, it is nothing more than the judge running his/her hands along the dog. If your dog can't tolerate that then again, it shouldn't be receiving the title. 



DJEtzel said:


> It means that they do not give a reason to breed the dog. You're right... PLENTY of dogs can early entry level agility, rally, ob titles. Does that mean that Frag should be bred? HAHA.. NO. He could easily be titling HIGH in rally, and MAY even be able to title in OB.. but that is no reason to breed him at all. He's smart... sure. But he doesn't have the nerves for it, the working ability, OR the conformation, and he is a medical nightmare. . .


If so many dogs can do it, then why are you arguing that we should lessen the standards to allow even more dogs to be titled? You also seem quite sure that Frag could title in these sports, but to the best of my knowledge, you haven't ever actually titled him in rally or obedience.


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## TorachiKatashi

Does everyone who is suddenly proclaiming to be the Grand Overlords of Obedience want to go ahead and scan their OTCH and RAE certificates to show everyone? Or do we want to chill the hell out? Seriously. _This_ is why the rest of the dog world thinks Obedience people are crazy. Because even the simplest little disagreement instantly turns into trying to skin each other alive. You ever wonder why Obedience entries are dwindling all over North America? It's _probably_ because as soon as someone says, "my dog doesn't like the stand for exam," rather than thoughtful suggestions on how one might help overcome that, everyone around them smells that little drop of blood and instantly leaps on them to ensure that they never enter an Obedience ring again. In thirty years, there won't be anymore Obedience and everyone is going to wonder what happened.

tl;dr: CHILL OUT.


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## trainingjunkie

I have a dog who won't let anyone touch her when she is working. She's hit or miss when she's not working. However, she is successful wtih the SFE. We just taught it like a trick and showed her what to expect and she's fine with it. Granted, she isn't a highly accomplished dog. We had to work through some pretty extreme ring fear and then a stroke-like incident that took 6 months to recover from, but she's done ok. She's got her novice agility titles, an RA, and 2 legs of her CD plus passed the TDI and CGC. If anyone is interested on how to counter-condition for the SFE, I would be happy to help. She was tough, so she taught me a lot.

I wish the obedience world was more friendly. In order to stick with it, I really had to decide to focus on my own journey. Learning to tune out the rest has been a very powerful life lesson. Agility and Rally seem much more community-oriented.


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## Xeph

The stand for exam is so totally not a test of nerve. That is ridiculous. A stable dog should be able to be approached in a non threatening manner and be touched by a stranger. A test of nerve involves real pressure from an outside source. If a dog is so nervy and unstable that it considers being approached by somebody "pressure", the issue is with the dog, not with the exercise.


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## sassafras

We're trying to skin each other alive? I thought we were just having a conversation. 


(Projecting tone and motivation on posts rears its ugly head again, I guess.)


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## TorachiKatashi

trainingjunkie said:


> I wish the obedience world was more friendly. In order to stick with it, I really had to decide to focus on my own journey. Learning to tune out the rest has been a very powerful life lesson. Agility and Rally seem much more community-oriented.


This is pretty much the global opinion on Obedience. The best advice I ever got was to show up, trial, leave, and don't say a word to anyone else. And it's pretty sad that it's come down to that. Rally isn't necessarily immune to all that venom, but for the most part people are usually more interested in helping you than telling you that you're awful and your dog is awful and to get out of the ring. For the most part.


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## lil_fuzzy

TorachiKatashi said:


> Does everyone who is suddenly proclaiming to be the Grand Overlords of Obedience want to go ahead and scan their OTCH and RAE certificates to show everyone? Or do we want to chill the hell out? Seriously. _This_ is why the rest of the dog world thinks Obedience people are crazy. Because even the simplest little disagreement instantly turns into trying to skin each other alive. You ever wonder why Obedience entries are dwindling all over North America? It's _probably_ because as soon as someone says, "my dog doesn't like the stand for exam," rather than thoughtful suggestions on how one might help overcome that, everyone around them smells that little drop of blood and instantly leaps on them to ensure that they never enter an Obedience ring again. In thirty years, there won't be anymore Obedience and everyone is going to wonder what happened.
> 
> tl;dr: CHILL OUT.


I actually found the discussion really interesting.



trainingjunkie said:


> I have a dog who won't let anyone touch her when she is working. She's hit or miss when she's not working. However, she is successful wtih the SFE. We just taught it like a trick and showed her what to expect and she's fine with it. Granted, she isn't a highly accomplished dog. We had to work through some pretty extreme ring fear and then a stroke-like incident that took 6 months to recover from, but she's done ok. She's got her novice agility titles, an RA, and 2 legs of her CD plus passed the TDI and CGC. *If anyone is interested on how to counter-condition for the SFE, I would be happy to help. * She was tough, so she taught me a lot.
> 
> I wish the obedience world was more friendly. In order to stick with it, I really had to decide to focus on my own journey. Learning to tune out the rest has been a very powerful life lesson. Agility and Rally seem much more community-oriented.



I'd love to know how you did this


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## Finkie_Mom

Poly said:


> You should try entering some show-and-go matches. Rally matches as such are getting hard to find, but obedience matches are around. Even if you don't intend to enter Novice Obedience, you can go into a Novice Obedience show-and-go match and only do the off-leash heeling. Just tell the 'judge' you want to work the off-leash heeling only and that you "may" be doing some off-leash 'doodles'. You won't get all the rally exercises and the stations, of course, but you can work on those during your regular training. You probably *will* get a nice super-long heeling pattern and that should help you over your ring jitters. And if you want to do some 270-turns and U-turns instead of the regular obedience turns, it's your time. Just remember to skip the stays.
> 
> You may get a lot of 'advice' to tighten up your heel position, but you know what to do about that.


Oh yeah! We've done a couple show and gos and I'm hoping to keep doing more now that my foot is all healed up. The judges have all been fine with my just kind of doing "whatever." In those situations I have done the stays/recalls because she can do them and I would like to keep working those in different environments, as I DO want to go further in obedience one day. And yes, tightening up the heelwork is a definite priority. However, for the time being, just getting her to follow me off leash and not displacement sniff is a good thing LOL. I figure that working rally is something fun that we can both use as a jumping-off point for formal obedience. Of course, I would PREFER to have the heelwork all in order before we trial anything, but with her, if it's not one thing it's another, so I will take what I can get


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## DJEtzel

Xeph said:


> The stand for exam is so totally not a test of nerve. That is ridiculous. A stable dog should be able to be approached in a non threatening manner and be touched by a stranger. A test of nerve involves real pressure from an outside source. If a dog is so nervy and unstable that it considers being approached by somebody "pressure", the issue is with the dog, not with the exercise.


Exactly. The issue is with the dog's nerves. Not his obedience.


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## Finkie_Mom

elrohwen said:


> Finkie_Mom, that was so much fun to watch.


Thank you so much


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## LoMD13

Man that Kimma is the best dog.


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## LoMD13

And for what it's worth, my Border Collie thing would never be able to do the stand for exam...but I don't think they should lower the standards because that devalues the success for others.


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## Finkie_Mom

LoMD13 said:


> Man that Kimma is the best dog.


Thanks 

She's... Something... 

We are getting there! I just can't believe how far she's come from being such a fearful/reactive little thing with a newbie owner!


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## trainingjunkie

lil_fuzzy said:


> I'd love to know how you did this


Thoughts on How I Changed my Dog's SFE Experience:

First, I decided that a SFE is actually the same as a sit/stay or a down/stay. All that is required of the dog is that it hold position. That's all the dog has to do.

(Enter stuff I learned from Chris Bach and her Third Way DVDs.)

First, I worked the sit and down stays by testing/proofing for things like thrown balls, dropped food, me running by, people walking through. Then, add "me" just touching her. Every time the dog holds position and emotionally re-commits to staying in the face of a distraction, I say YES and reward. Soon, me touching the dog is simply a "distraction" rather than a social interaction. The proofing game asks the question: If I do "X" can you still perform a sit/stay? If you play the game long enough, the dog locks in to the postion an drowns out all the rest.

This is when a new person enters. Based on the history of the proofing game, the new person's touch becomes part of the game, again, not a social interaction. The dog holds still and totally ignores the person. Gradually increase the touching to the 3 point tap required in Novice. If you go on to Utility, you just go back and add more later.

After you have this established at the sit and down, you just start over with the stand, beginning with food and toys and YOU and then finishing with the stranger. 

Really, a shy dog will do SO MUCH BETTER if they have the midset that they are playing a proofing game rather than thinking that they are interacting with a stranger.

Does any of that make sense? The dog's job is to stay focused on the task at hand: Holding Still. The dog can and should seek out eye contact with you, the handler, because if they do, it is easier for them to drown out the distractions.

The dog should build on a history of success and should like this game. After all, the only thing they need to do is hold still!

I hope that this is clear enough to be useful. It's harder to type it than it is to do it.


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## Xeph

> Exactly. The issue is with the dog's nerves. Not his obedience.


And if the dog is that nervy, it shouldn't be shown


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## DJEtzel

Xeph said:


> And if the dog is that nervy, it shouldn't be shown


Shown period? Why do you think that? My dog has the nerves to get his CGC and be around other people and dogs at the dog park, agility trials, in public, etc... He just might not have the nerve to pass the SFE with a complete stranger... And that means I shouldn't do anything with him?

Back to my original point... The exercise is doing very little to prove obedience and a lot to show nerve, which I simply think is unfair because it's an obedience trial. I don't think I ever said it should be changed or lessened, just that it's not fair the way it is and it'd be NICE if it was lessened.


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## Miss Bugs

so cold today(-50) that practice was cancelled for this week lol


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## trainingjunkie

I haven't met your dog Frag, but I still wonder if making the SFE a proofing exercise instead of a social interaction might be really effective.

At what point does Frag struggle?


Oh, and it's really miserably cold here too!!!! I HATE IT!!!!


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## Xeph

Shown in obedience. Sorry, but a dog so weak that it can't obey a command to stand still and be approached by a friendly stranger, it shouldn't be exhibited in that venue. It shouldn't get easier for weaker dogs to pass.

It is absolutely a test of obedience. You told the dog to stay...the dog should stay until released, regardless of what is going on.

Heck, I already know my 12 month old is going to have a time with the SFE. Not because he's nervy, but because he just HATES to stand still. I never thought standing was a talent until I got Mahler. Only dog I own who cannot hold a stack, and he's 12 months old.

He can heel under huge distractions, but he can't stand still. What is that crap? LOL! I'll have to work at it to get him ready for his last CD legs at the national, but he'll be sure to do it.


----------



## DJEtzel

Xeph said:


> Shown in obedience. Sorry, but a dog so weak that it can't obey a command to stand still and be approached by a friendly stranger, it shouldn't be exhibited in that venue. It shouldn't get easier for weaker dogs to pass.
> 
> It is absolutely a test of obedience. You told the dog to stay...the dog should stay until released, regardless of what is going on.
> 
> Heck, I already know my 12 month old is going to have a time with the SFE. Not because he's nervy, but because he just HATES to stand still. I never thought standing was a talent until I got Mahler. Only dog I own who cannot hold a stack, and he's 12 months old.
> 
> He can heel under huge distractions, but he can't stand still. What is that crap? LOL! I'll have to work at it to get him ready for his last CD legs at the national, but he'll be sure to do it.


The issue in my case is NOT the standing still though. Frag has GREAT obedience and will stand there until the cows come home, but MAY growl at the judge which at this point in time isn't a risk I want to take because of the repercussions. He won't move away or towards the judge, he might just growl at him. Which is all nerve, not obedience.


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## DJEtzel

trainingjunkie said:


> I haven't met your dog Frag, but I still wonder if making the SFE a proofing exercise instead of a social interaction might be really effective.
> 
> At what point does Frag struggle?
> 
> 
> Oh, and it's really miserably cold here too!!!! I HATE IT!!!!


Frag struggles mainly at forced interaction. He's never growled at anyone off leash, even if they are complete strangers grabbing his face from both sides and kissing him. (Which, btw, was all in two seconds and the human was yelled at promptly. I was watching interaction, but was a good ten feet away and I don't expect this disabled man in a wheel chair to grab my dog's face. Frag actually didnt even seem annoyed at this.)

But if he's on a short leash and told to stay somewhere (I think this comes down to fight or flight) and a human approaches and leans over him too much or makes too much eye contact, he starts to go whale-eyed, and if they linger any longer, he will start a low growl while watching them. BUT, he doesn't move(if he's being commanded to stay, that is). Even at the vet, Frag will down and stay there during a blood draw or physical exam (on his side) but, depending on the visit (he's been very good lately) he will be growling the entire time. :/

Eta; and my main worry, is that from what friends have told me, is that judges are not just sweeping down the back anymore. If it was a less than 6 second exercise, Frag could do it. But they have said that judges are lingering more, sometimes feeling UNDER the dog, and touching ears or face as well... Which I think would be too much leaning and watching him for his issue.


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## Miss Bugs

ok I took some quick video clips last night of Gem's moving down and side step right, I only have so much space so I couldn't get clips of much lol 

moving down
http://youtu.be/5gbz8QImOOY

side step right
http://youtu.be/fs_yteDzNNg

sorry about the quality! the lighting was pretty poor lol


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## TorachiKatashi

No one is producing those OTCH certificates, so I guess I'm going to have to be the one to try to get the Obedience/Rally CLASSES thread back on topic, so here it goes.

I'm in the process of developing/reworking the curriculum for the class I'm teaching and the classes I'm hoping to take over. The way it works is that we have our Foundations class which is the entry level class that teaches the skills that will be necessarily for all the next level classes, and from there it branches out to whichever sports you choose (Agility, Flyball, Search & Rescue, Obedience, and Rally.) Rally is currently debunked as the person teaching it has left, but I hope to take it over before the year is out.

So this question goes to anyone who has taken a Rally class, or even anyone who would just like to take one. In a set-up like that, which skills would you prefer to see taught in a Foundations class versus in the actual Rally class? Which skills would you rather see taught in the Rally class? The biggest complaint I heard about the previous Rally classes was that they simply set up a new course and ran it every week. That seems to be the way all Rally classes I've seen are ran, but I can also see how it would be discouraging for someone who knows nothing about the sport to suddenly be thrown into a Novice course with no prior knowledge of the exercises.

The way I'd like to work it is such that we would not actually work on courses until the later half of the 10-12 week course, if at all - I may even do the entire course simply working on the individual skills and then have courses in a second optional Novice class. My opinion and experience in Rally is much the same as in Agility in that I feel the dogs are much better off if they have the individual skills perfected before they ever see the actual equipment (or in this case, the actual signs,) rather than to throw them into a course and watch them struggle on every sign and simply stress the dogs out.

Thoughts, opinions? What did you like about your Rally classes? What didn't you like?


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## trainingjunkie

By rule, the SFE in Novice is three quick touches. Here are the AKC's words, " The judge will approach the dog from the front. Using the fingers and palm of one hand, the judge will touch the dog's head, body, and hindquarters." In novice, there will not be a full examination. In Utility, yes. In Novice, no. It doesn't take 3 seconds.

That said, I had quite an experience with the SFE on my poor dog's first novice leg! The judge had a scooter. To do the SFE, she had to walk over using a cane. Then, she had to balance deliberately over my dog for a longer time than usual. Plus, I think she had a colostomy bag. My dog at least noticed an unusual odor. Bless his heart, he held and was awesome, but there were a number of dogs who walked away from this judge. I have a friend who still refers to this show as the day from hell.

Now that I have more shows under my belt, I know many of the judges by name. If you go and watch a few shows, you can see who most of the judges in your area are and you can select your judge based on some understanding of what to expect.

One of my good friends has a growler who is at utility level. She is having to work the crap out of this exercise. Her dog rumbles and shows his teeth. Very unattractive. She now knows that she will probably not be able to show under a woman and that she will need to pick a male judge who does more cursory exams. OR, she won't show utility. Her dog has been ready for over a year except for this exercise. Very frustrating. This probably makes an OTCH or even a UDX unattainable.

Not all dogs can be shown. It's a bummer. Sometimes the temperaments just aren't correct for the sport. Two of my dogs had issues, one with dogs and the other with fear. Working through all of it was so valuable and interesting and rewarding and fun.

I wish everyone could have as much fun with dog sports as I do. I enjoy it so, so much, even when it's all going wrong.


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## sassafras

LOL you're only allowed to have a slightly OT conversation about obedience, nerves, and specific exercises if you have an OTCH.


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## trainingjunkie

I will never, ever have an OTCH! Not only because it takes so much money and time, but also because I utterly lack the discipline. It takes something real special to climb that mountain and I don't have it. If that disqualifies me from this thread, well, then I'm disqualified. I'm not really sure how talking about the SFE is off topic. It's a foundation exercise in obedience...

I have learned that teaching Rally is really, really tough. I have taken a ton of rally classes, and they all followed the "set up signs and run em" format. When I went to teach rally classes, I found that the students were coming into class unable to even loose leash walk, never mind "heel." And they had no idea about fronts and finishes. It's very hard to teach anything when the dogs are dragging their handlers all around the room. SO, I tried to teach heeling and fronts and finishes, but it seemed like the students just wanted to do the signs. And they basically just dragged their dogs around the course. No dogs were making choices, they were just being pulled around. I did 6 classes that were all this way, so I just quit teaching it. I will start back this spring with a different training group. 

I think attention, heel, fronts, and finishes should all be taught as foundation. Then the signs should come in. Navigating the signs should be about the course, not about fighting over positions. It was so frustrating trying to teach people who simply weren't ready at all. "Heel" work isn't sexy, but without it, there's no where to go in Rally or Obedience. Heel work is also really hard. That's where I would start if/when I was doing it again.


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## Poly

DJEtzel said:


> The dogs participating in Schutzhund are solid-nerved dogs. We are talking about the disadvantages of weak-nerved dogs being able to do this. Much harder for them to refrain themselves from what MOST of them are thinking.


Yeah - but your statement was that it was a *breed issue*, not an issue with an individual dog. Of course an individual dog may have an problem with this or any other exercise, but to pass it off as a breed issue is simply incorrect.

And I also wouldn't want anyone to come away with the idea that as a breed, GSDs have a problem with obedience or with Schutzhund. That's just wrong thinking. In fact, chances are much more likely that if you are willing to put in the effort, your GSD will do quite well in those activities. Nothing is ever 100% certain, but your chances are pretty good.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I think attention, heel, fronts, and finishes should all be taught as foundation. Then the signs should come in. Navigating the signs should be about the course, not about fighting over positions. It was so frustrating trying to teach people who simply weren't ready at all. "Heel" work isn't sexy, but without it, there's no where to go in Rally or Obedience. Heel work is also really hard. That's where I would start if/when I was doing it again.


I think this is something my obedience class does well. Every week we work on basic heeling with cones to stop and sit at, and different patterns (stop at every cone, don't stop at any, etc). It's a good foundation for a rally class and a good way to test if a dog might be ready to move to rally from the basic classes. We also work on basic fronts. I love that the instructors are clearly teaching foundations for competition, while also working well with people who just want a well behaved pet. For example, some people aren't focused on heeling and fronts, so they work with where that person is and getting basic loose leash walking and recalls. I try to work on these foundation things with Watson, and they are great at giving me more advanced tips to get my front straighter or heeling tighter.


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## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> I think this is something my obedience class does well. Every week we work on basic heeling with cones to stop and sit at, and different patterns (stop at every cone, don't stop at any, etc). It's a good foundation for a rally class and a good way to test if a dog might be ready to move to rally from the basic classes. We also work on basic fronts. I love that the instructors are clearly teaching foundations for competition, while also working well with people who just want a well behaved pet. For example, some people aren't focused on heeling and fronts, so they work with where that person is and getting basic loose leash walking and recalls. I try to work on these foundation things with Watson, and they are great at giving me more advanced tips to get my front straighter or heeling tighter.


I am really glad to hear this! Sounds like a fabulous foundation! I think part of what's happening to me has something to do with the geography of where I live and train. I am teaching classes through community education rather than teaching in a dedicated training club. When I was training with the club, people were much more invested in the details. In a community ed environment, people are maybe less prepared or invested (as a group, not individually.) I find it very de-motivating. A solid foundation makes everything easier! Glad you are in such a great place!


----------



## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I am really glad to hear this! Sounds like a fabulous foundation! I think part of what's happening to me has something to do with the geography of where I live and train. I am teaching classes through community education rather than teaching in a dedicated training club. When I was training with the club, people were much more invested in the details. In a community ed environment, people are maybe less prepared or invested (as a group, not individually.) I find it very de-motivating. A solid foundation makes everything easier! Glad you are in such a great place!


Can anyone sign up for your Rally class, or do they have to be pre-approved? The trainers at my facility will let you know if you're ready to move on to a rally class, or if you should try the "better than basic" class another time or two. I imagine it would be very difficult if anyone could just sign up for a Novice Rally class without any type of foundation or idea what they're getting into. 

And I know what you mean about people not wanting to work on the "boring" foundation work. I rode horses for many years and so many people wanted to skip the riding around the ring part (working on foundations) and move on to the jumping portion of the lesson and I imagine it's the same in a Rally class. I used to be that way, but I think as I get older I find the precision of foundation stuff to be more interesting than it used to be.


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## trainingjunkie

In my corner of the world, if you have $50, you can take 6 weeks of Rally Classes. Makes for some VERY interesting combinations of dogs and goals. It's why I just quit offering it and am offering a "Beyond Basic" class in its place.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> In my corner of the world, if you have $50, you can take 6 weeks of Rally Classes. Makes for some VERY interesting combinations of dogs and goals. It's why I just quit offering it and am offering a "Beyond Basic" class in its place.


Yeah, that's tough! I can imagine the range of abilities and goals would be huge. 

I do wish I could take a class for $50 though. That would be perfect.


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## DJEtzel

I'm so lucky for the class prices in my area! I'm taking 3 8 week classes right now for $130 total.  I definitely can't complain.


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## elrohwen

I'm taking a 5 week class for $130 :'(

They do seem to get cheaper as you get more advanced though - I guess they don't want to take too much from the people who come back for class after class, and get more money out of the people who do a basic class or two and done.


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## DJEtzel

elrohwen said:


> I'm taking a 5 week class for $130 :'(
> 
> They do seem to get cheaper as you get more advanced though - I guess they don't want to take too much from the people who come back for class after class, and get more money out of the people who do a basic class or two and done.


Well at least you have something to look forward to! I get a 50% discount, so the training isn't usually that cheap... And she takes $10 off for each additional class you take, plus I had two class credits from a cancelled class. In other words... I got lucky!!


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## trainingjunkie

Wow! I thought that $50 for 6 classes was about as cheap as classes could be!


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## Miss Bugs

I am suprised at the set up a course and run idea of classes lol. I actually wish thats what rally classes were here. my biggest dislike is the LACK of working around any signs because Gem knew all the exersizes when I started, she could preform around screaming kids, grocery stores, remote control cars flying past her etc.. but a sign threw her so far off she could not concentrate, it was far too interesting! 

as for foundation classes....I find most people are turned off by pre-requisits, not because of bordom but because of cost. most classes here cost around $100-180 for 6 weeks, if they are required to take 2-3 sets of classes before even being considered, they wont do it because they simpley cant afford it.


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## elrohwen

Miss Bugs said:


> as for foundation classes....I find most people are turned off by pre-requisits, not because of bordom but because of cost. most classes here cost around $100-180 for 6 weeks, if they are required to take 2-3 sets of classes before even being considered, they wont do it because they simpley cant afford it.


I think that is part of the problem here. They're hosting a Wag-it-Games seminar for two days in March and it sounds awesome, but it's expensive enough that I'm sure it turned a lot of people off who would otherwise really enjoy it. I live in a fairly expensive area though, so I understand that they have to cover costs somehow.


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## Miss Bugs

and see I dont live in a high cost area..heck doggy daycare costs half of what it costs anywhere else. i think maybe in my area the issue is too many clubs, everyone has to cover their building rent and if they can only get 2-3 students per class because there is 15 other classes teaching the same things at the same times, and we don't live in a large city...lol


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## Xeph

I miss my club in WI  $30 a year and you train in any class you want for no additional fee, the only exception being agility


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## sassafras

In theory I pay $100 for a punch card of 10 classes, but my instructor hasn't billed me to renew my card well past 10 classes even though I've asked her twice how much I owe her. At some point I'm just going to start throwing $100 bills at her, I guess.


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## LoMD13

I'm so jealous of all your lives. 135 for 6 weeks of pretty much any class here. Except for nose work which is just insane.


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## DJEtzel

LoMD13 said:


> I'm so jealous of all your lives. 135 for 6 weeks of pretty much any class here. Except for nose work which is just insane.


That's what I REALLY enjoy about my trainer; she doesn't charge more for classes like nose work or agility. Even though she could easily make more money off of it. Between my perks at the dog park and this training facility, I don't think I will ever move! All of my dock diving classes are free since they're at the dog park. So. Convenient. But, the cost of everything in Michigan is dirt cheap.. So it makes sense.


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## TorachiKatashi

Miss Bugs said:


> I am suprised at the set up a course and run idea of classes lol. I actually wish thats what rally classes were here. my biggest dislike is the LACK of working around any signs because Gem knew all the exersizes when I started, she could preform around screaming kids, grocery stores, remote control cars flying past her etc.. but a sign threw her so far off she could not concentrate, it was far too interesting!


But the assumption is, without a prior class, that the dogs do NOT know all the exercises when entering the Rally class. Most people are entering the classes completely green.



> as for foundation classes....I find most people are turned off by pre-requisits, not because of bordom but because of cost. most classes here cost around $100-180 for 6 weeks, if they are required to take 2-3 sets of classes before even being considered, they wont do it because they simpley cant afford it.


But doesn't that just end up turning the Novice Rally class into Foundations class? I'd be pretty annoyed if I entered a Rally class but ended up learning squat because we had to waste the first few classes teaching someone's three-year-old dog how to sit and down.

In theory I could say that any dog entering the Rally class needs to be able to sit, down, stand, heel perfectly, front, finish both ways, pivot, back up, and jump, without any classes to teach any of that stuff, but that seems like it would scare even more people away.

Edit: So, Moving Downs; Eight-year-old dog hates them. Eight-month-old puppy figured it out the same day he learned the word "Down."

?!?!


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## sassafras

At my club, you have to go through level 1 and 2 obedience classes (either there or an equivalent class at another club) before you can even sign up for the rally class. In their level 2 class they do some foundation work for fronts and finishes. 

Then Rally and Level 3 obedience are drop in classes that alternate weekly with each other... the Rally class is primarily running courses. You get advice on how to teach skills if you need it but there really isn't class time devoted to teaching, say, a pivot... the instructor will teach you how to teach it, but you're expected to do your homework. If you can't do a sign on a course that night, you just skip it. The level 3 class is more devoted to practicing and polishing the skills one by one but with more of a focus on skills needed for competitive obedience rather than rally specifically, although there is a lot of heeling work. 

I actually quite like it. I feel like once I've been through a couple levels of obedience, I don't necessarily need class time to hold my hand to teach each and every skill and I like spending class time doing the courses and home time doing the nuts and bolts. But the instructor and other students are still there to help if I need it teaching or polishing a particular skill.


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## Miss Bugs

but then foundation classes would actually have to TEACH that stuff, and IME they don't even touch on fronts, finishes and the like...those are the things they teach in novice rally classes here. the only thing things the foundations classes around here teach is sit, down, loose leash walking. ..nothing but general pet stuff which I think can actually be detrimental. most problems I have seen have been caused by dogs that were heavily reinforced for auto sits, not being trained a proper heel, and being taught a sit then down instead of a sphinx down. to me teaching the exersizes the first time IS what novice rally classes should be, otherwise its just rally practice. 

with my expirience I was just saying practice sign work was what I was looking for, I took a novice class because it was my only option, not that I think thats what rally classes should be lol


----------



## Poly

Miss Bugs said:


> as for foundation classes....I find most people are turned off by pre-requisits, not because of bordom but because of cost. most classes here cost around $100-180 for 6 weeks, if they are required to take 2-3 sets of classes before even being considered, they wont do it because they simpley cant afford it.


Yes I certainly see your point about the cost. 

However, IME, most dogs that have passed "basic" or "pet" obedience simply do NOT have the requisite level of attention needed for competition Obedience. You don't want to start on the exercises until you have a very high level of attention. Some dogs - the very biddable ones - get to the required level of attention very quickly. Some dogs - the less biddable ones - don't. It's an individual dog thing, a breed thing and a handler thing. 

An Attention class does teach you the techniques you need to improve your dog's attention and gets you thinking more as part of a team. It also expands your dog's mental outlook. Those are also skills to fall back on when and if you go on to higher levels and find that as a team you are plateauing.

BTW, the drop-out rate that I've observed for moving from Attention class(es) to the first Novice Obedience teaching class is over 50%. It's actually higher than the drop-out rate moving from Novice Obedience to Open Obedience, or from Open to Utility, which might surprise some people. But of course there are drop-outs there, too.

When asked why they drop out, many handlers respond along the lines that obedience as a sport - or that level of obedience - was just not for them. Cost itself is very rarely the deciding factor. Quite often, they go on to or continue with other sports, so obviously cost wasn't an absolute issue. 

The prep time to get to a reasonable state of readiness in Obedience - in each of the levels - is generally MUCH longer than almost any other dog sport. For the most extreme example, in Utility, the _average_ is one year of Utility-level teaching/training and THEN an _average_ of competing in _twenty-two_(!!!) trials (and of course continued training) to put a UD title on a dog. And those are all dogs that have already trained at lower levels and that already have obedience titles. There are exceptions , of course, but those are the averages.

For Novice and Open, the averages are of course much less, but they are still significant. IMO, one of the reasons why the BN class - and to a lesser extent the GN and GO classes - were introduced was becase of the long lead time to get to a reasonable readiness for the Obedience levels compared to other sports - and those long lead times do turn off many people.


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## sassafras

Miss Bugs said:


> but then foundation classes would actually have to TEACH that stuff, and IME they don't even touch on fronts, finishes and the like...those are the things they teach in novice rally classes here.


At this particular club, they start that stuff in their level 2 obedience class, but I do think it's a little unusual at least around here. I've trained at a handful of different local places and this is the only ones who have even covered a front or a right finish at all and none of the others spent nearly as much time on heeling as this place does in level 2. At the time I was kind of like "why do I need this for my pet dog?" and didn't fully appreciate the sequence of the skills and classes from level 2 to the level 3 and rally classes. Looking back, though, I really like how they do it.


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## Finkie_Mom

Here's us at class last night. She's getting there! We're having a blast 






ETA - I should say WE'RE getting there - I did cost us 10 points during that run after all


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## Miss Bugs

FINALLY had another class last night after it getting cancelled several weeks in a row lol. we worked on Gem's behaviour around signs and cones..on leash she was only slightly distracted, once we got her ignoring the signs, I took her off leash....and she immediately ran over and brought me the signs :doh: I have however been working ion the stand for exam as distraction training, and its working REALLY well, 2 weeks ago she jumped if a person walked by her while I stood toe to toe with her in a stand, last night the instructor was able to walk up do a full rub down pretty much with me standing 2 feet away and all Gem did was slightly shift her weight. :whoo:


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## elrohwen

At the end of our final class today our trainer said that all three of us could move on to a higher level class. I'm so proud of Watson because the other puppies in this class are 10 months and have taken the class twice, while he's not quite 7 months and has only taken it once. 

I'm not sure what to take though. There are two 10 week classes that we can join in the middle. One is "fun and games with fido" which teaches some trick behaviors and some novice rally and obedience. Basically it sounds like a class designed to be fun and work in continuing obedience. The other class is a rally class. The rally class doesn't work with my schedule as well, but I'd kind of rather take that. Right now I'm signed up for the fun one, but I think there are more open spots in rally so they'd prefer me to sign up for that one. I was expecting to repeat this class, so I didn't think about this possibility and now I can't decide.

Eta, DH talked me into the fun class because I would probably miss more entering a rally class halfway. Plus, Watson needs more basic obedience and focus work at this point.


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## lil_fuzzy

Received the dogs' registration certificates with Dogs Qld yesterday, which means we're all set to compete  It's too bad they assume everyone has been doing this for years though, so there are no explanations anywhere. Google is my friend though.

So I've been looking up upcoming rally trials, and I have my eye on one in April. All Pixie needs before then is a nice come to front, which I've been working on today and she's catching on quickly. She also needs to be less fussy about working on grass, but I've got some ideas for fixing that as well.

Fun


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## elrohwen

We started in our new advanced obedience class (sort of a novice rally + general obedience class) last night and were demoted back to the level 2 class we just finished. Oh well! The trainer actually asked me before the class started if I would be interested in repeating the other class, since it was very empty and the advanced class was up to 7 dogs (they're on the same night). After sticking it out through the advanced class for a night, I'm happy to go back a step. Watson is just so distracted with that many dogs so close to him, and I could tell he was overwhelmed. With a more empty class, she promised we could do a lot of leash work with him and he'd get more individual attention, which is good. He just needs to mature a bit and get his brain working and then we'll try the advanced class again from the beginning, instead of halfway through. Most other puppies seem to repeat obedience 2 at least once.

When it came to the exercises, he actually did pretty well! One of the instructors in the class said she's really impressed with his heeling when he settles in and focuses (though it took 2-3 times through the mini-rally course before he focused). He was brilliant through the pace changes of slow->normal and fast->normal heeling which is something I've never even tried with him before. 

His biggest issue was the sit for exam (without letting him nibble a treat). He just wanted to wiggle and lick the instructor, so it took her a couple tries to get him still so we could reward. I think if we practice at home and he understands what's expected, we can do better. It just doesn't come naturally to him to allow people to pet him without wiggling his entire body and trying to cuddle. lol

So overall I'm proud of my little guy. It will be nice to go back to a level he can focus at, and start the advanced class from the beginning rather than half way through.


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## 3doglady

I have to find a places to practice. Our first trial is in a few weeks and I'm having a hard time finding a reasonably close show N go. If I can get decent weather, I'll practice in a park or parking lot, if I need to.


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## trainingjunkie

3doglady said:


> I have to find a places to practice. Our first trial is in a few weeks and I'm having a hard time finding a reasonably close show N go. If I can get decent weather, I'll practice in a park or parking lot, if I need to.


Any chance you can rent ring time at the place where the show is being held?


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## 3doglady

It's actually an indoor sports arena where kids play indoor team sports, but it's worth a call to see if they're open to it.


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## sassafras

3 runs at rally tonight... the first one was such absolute perfection... then the instructor threw a figure 8 w/distractions in the second course and Squash became completely and utterly fascinated by one of the toys. Like, he'd do things like way across the room at a different sign sit backwards "at heel" so he could stare longingly at it. HE DOESN'T EVEN LIKE TOYS THAT MUCH. 

Guess what we're going to be working on. Snrk.


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## Finkie_Mom

We finally went back to rally class after taking a couple of weeks off so that I can stay with Bubbles as she recovered (it takes about 40 mins to get there and it's an hour class that always runs over, so it's a lot of time). Kimma was freaked at first since it was a new session and there were new dogs there, but she still did great on course. We just need to work on constant focus (I'm now rewarding randomly whenever she gives eye contact while heeling or is in a good heel position), and the figure 8 with distractions (sassafras, don't worry - Kimma does not even like toys and she was ALL ABOUT the tennis ball on top of a frisbee our instructor put out last night - she kept staring at it whenever possible and as we passed by even went in for a mini-sniff LOL). Then of course I just need to keep learning new signs/making sure I know what I'm doing hahaha.

I'm actually really excited because our instructor said that we can alternate weeks between novice obedience and rally since they are on different days (though we will be doing a bit in open, too, as we can't make it to novice right on time from where I work). She actually wants me to come in and teach a shaped retrieve and some CU type stuff to some students in her novice class I'm super pumped, as I really want to work for Kimma's CD/CDX soon, and she has lots of good stuff down already. I just need outside perspective and more proofing.


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## TorachiKatashi

Miss Bugs said:


> we worked on Gem's behaviour around signs and cones..on leash she was only slightly distracted, once we got her ignoring the signs, I took her off leash....and she immediately ran over and brought me the signs :doh:


Personally, this is why I never train anything on-leash until it's been perfected off-leash. If you start on-leash, you basically have to train everything twice.



sassafras said:


> 3 runs at rally tonight... the first one was such absolute perfection... then the instructor threw a figure 8 w/distractions in the second course and Squash became completely and utterly fascinated by one of the toys. Like, he'd do things like way across the room at a different sign sit backwards "at heel" so he could stare longingly at it. HE DOESN'T EVEN LIKE TOYS THAT MUCH.
> 
> Guess what we're going to be working on. Snrk.


The best thing I've ever heard anyone say at a trial as they were coming out of the ring was, "Why are you doing this? You don't even _like_ cheese!"



Finkie_Mom said:


> We just need to work on constant focus (I'm now rewarding randomly whenever she gives eye contact while heeling or is in a good heel position), and the figure 8 with distractions (sassafras, don't worry - Kimma does not even like toys and she was ALL ABOUT the tennis ball on top of a frisbee our instructor put out last night - she kept staring at it whenever possible and as we passed by even went in for a mini-sniff LOL).


May I ask about this? Honestly, I've never cared about training "focus." Of course I don't want them looking around in every direction at all the distractions around the ring. But I'd like them to be watching where they're walking. Dogs have excellent peripheral vision - they don't need to be staring right at your face to be able to see you. I know having the head wrapped around the legs is an old Obedience thing, but it's been my experience that those dogs are much more likely to try to wrap around in front of you at the halt, and/or have their butt crabbing out.

Ideally, though, true focus doesn't need to be trained - it just comes naturally from all your other training. I know that sounds pretty "holier than thou," but I think a lot of people waste way too much time on it when they could be putting that effort into other things.

I also read a very interesting article a few years ago about the provenance of neck injuries and long-term neck problems in Obedience/Rally dogs from all the years of heeling forward while having their necks craned awkwardly sideways like that.


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## trainingjunkie

"Focus" isn't a head position. It's committed attention. I don't care where my dog's head is as long as he's totally in the game with me. More often than not though, when heeling, he choses to look at me to make staying on-task easier for him.

In my experience, dogs tend to follow their eyes. If their eyes are on their handler, they don't have to battle distractions as much. My dog and I were at an indoor trial trying for our 3rd CD leg when a rabbit ran through the ring. We were heeling off-leash at the time. My dog didn't flinch. Everyone was very impressed and talked about it all weekend, but I actually think that he didn't see the rabbit because he was trying so hard to focus on me. 


I have never known of an obedience/rally dog with a neck injury from heeling.


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## sassafras

Finkie_Mom said:


> We just need to work on constant focus (I'm now rewarding randomly whenever she gives eye contact while heeling or is in a good heel position), and the figure 8 with distractions (sassafras, don't worry - Kimma does not even like toys and she was ALL ABOUT the tennis ball on top of a frisbee our instructor put out last night - she kept staring at it whenever possible and as we passed by even went in for a mini-sniff LOL).


New things being distractions are our downfall... at home, at class, at trials. He really likes to check things out. At our most recent trial, he was spot on while we were warming up - but I'd been doing it in an area that wasn't by our ring. So when we got to the ring he was all NEW THINGS NEW THINGS BATHROOM NEW HEATER NEW OTHER RING NEW OMG. I learned my lesson to warm up closer to the ring if possible, lol. Even at class, if there is a stray piece of equipment or someone's leash laying around he'll get fascinated by it. I work on focus the same way you do and it helps, but he will just get weirdly fixated on things sometimes. Definitely need to spend time in a lot of different environments, as the weather gets nicer it will be easier to practice in more places.


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## Poly

TorachiKatashi said:


> Personally, this is why I never train anything on-leash until it's been perfected off-leash. If you start on-leash, you basically have to train everything twice.
> 
> .


If you train heeling on-leash *correctly*, you only need to do it once. 

There are two approaches concerning competition obedience heeling training. 

One approach trains off-leash from the beginning. 

The other approach trains heeling on-leash from the beginning and only does off leash heeling at specific intervals. The goal for Obedience is about 75% on-leash time and about 25% off leash. 

Of course, we are talking about obedience heeling. For the other obedience exercises, we don't actually train those on-leash, although we do start off with a lot of on-leash preliminary work.

Which approach is right? Well, the answer is both of them are. They have both produced NOC, OTCH and UDX dogs. 

So to say that one or the other is the only way to go is misinformed.

Also, let me repeat that this is for Competition Obedience. For Rally-O, we do things differently - but that's for another post.


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## petpeeve

TorachiKatashi said:


> Honestly, I've never cared about training "focus." Of course I don't want them looking around in every direction at all the distractions around the ring. *But I'd like them to be watching where they're walking.* Dogs have excellent peripheral vision - they don't need to be staring right at your face to be able to see you. I know having the head wrapped around the legs is an old Obedience thing, but it's been my experience that those dogs are much more likely to try to wrap around in front of you at the halt, and/or have their butt crabbing out.


As we all likely know by now, eye contact doesn't earn any extra points. But, it makes heeling much easier to execute, and in the process not lose points for going wide, forging, and lagging etc. Head and shoulder cues for turns, halts, and speed changes will be very difficult for the dog to perceive if he's looking where he's going.

Although, I do admire people who do things the hard way and succeed.


also: not sure if wraparound heeling is an "old" obedience thing or not (it's still prevalent in schutzhund I believe), but it'll probably earn you a deduction if the OB or Rally judge has a sharp pencil.


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## Finkie_Mom

Focus to me means that she's paying attention to what I'm doing and will respond to verbal or physical cues accordingly. 

I could care less if she looks at me, which is why I said, "I'm now rewarding randomly whenever she gives eye contact while heeling *or* is in a good heel position" (bolded for emphasis). When she IS giving me eye contact, I've noticed she IS less likely to lag or forge. But if she is in a good position and not giving eye contact, then that's just fine by me. There are specific points in some rally courses, however, that I would rather have eye contact. The figure 8 with distractions is one, as she is less likely to be tempted to sniff if her head is up already, and any time where we come close to dogs/spectators watching is another, since she has a history of being reactive. In agility, there is no way she could be making eye contact at all times. Heck, there are courses where she doesn't make eye contact with me at all! But she's still focused. Sorry if my definition was unclear in my previous post.


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## 3doglady

Finkie_Mom, Where do you train? I'm not that far away.


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## Finkie_Mom

3doglady said:


> Finkie_Mom, Where do you train? I'm not that far away.


I will send you a PM


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## Miss Bugs

lol I generally train off leash so I dont start relying on the leash it was just that Gem gets distracted by the signs since she isn't used to doing a lot around them. in practice we go back and forth off leash and on leash at random, she was fine once I got her attention though lol. 

on another note Gems next trial is this weekend! we are hoping for our novice title!


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## Miss Bugs

day one of trial, Q, 3rd place and a score of 192/200! barring me making any stupid mistakes, Gem should be "Gem CGN CRN" tomorrow!


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## sassafras

Congratulations!


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## Miss Bugs

annnd video of our run

http://youtu.be/CI2vm7NeOi8

I was very proud of her, her focus is all over the place at times but that's only in trials, and this was a major improvement over her last trial lol, I'm sure with more experience her focus will improve in trials

I think part of her problem last trial was the crate as well, she doesn't like plastic crates, although she is now comfortable enough not to go snaky and destroy them, but the largest size crate that fits in my car is a 300 plastic crate, which actually looks barley big enough until you see her inside it lol(one of the club people was argumeing with me when I said the 300 was waayy too small, the second she saw Gem inside the crate her tune did a 180 lol) , and my only wire crates are 42" which is just too big for set up in a small building with limited space, sticking her in a too small plastic crate I think frayed her nerves last time. anyone know of any soft crates that are "open" feeling like wire crates, in a minimum of 36" size?


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## petpeeve

Well done! So this is CARO, I presume? ... didn't know you were Canadian until I saw CGN.

Wishing you good luck for tomorrow's trial.


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## Miss Bugs

thanks! yes its CARO


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## Miss Bugs

and Miss Gem has her title! our run was not great today, all the dogs were REALLY distracted and Gem was no exception, I had to redo 2 stations because she laid down on the halt sits and had a couple of tight leashes and double commands while I tried desperately to keep her attention lol, but even so we got a 185 and and our CRN title 









:clap2:


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## Shoul

That's still awesome finish to the day! Congrats!! I like her winking in the photo too.


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## TorachiKatashi

Poly said:


> If you train heeling on-leash *correctly*, you only need to do it once.
> 
> There are two approaches concerning competition obedience heeling training.
> 
> One approach trains off-leash from the beginning.
> 
> The other approach trains heeling on-leash from the beginning and only does off leash heeling at specific intervals. The goal for Obedience is about 75% on-leash time and about 25% off leash.
> 
> Of course, we are talking about obedience heeling. For the other obedience exercises, we don't actually train those on-leash, although we do start off with a lot of on-leash preliminary work.
> 
> Which approach is right? Well, the answer is both of them are. They have both produced NOC, OTCH and UDX dogs.
> 
> So to say that one or the other is the only way to go is misinformed.
> 
> Also, let me repeat that this is for Competition Obedience. For Rally-O, we do things differently - but that's for another post.


I guess if I saw anyone training like that, I'd have to ask them, "What will happen if you throw the leash aside and continue heeling right now?"

If the answer was "Nothing," then that tells me that the leash is only there to soothe the paranoia of the handler (much like "Stay" and "Wait" cues,) which will go on to negatively affect the dog in the ring.

If the answer was literally anything else, then I'd bump them back down to Foundations class.



petpeeve said:


> As we all likely know by now, eye contact doesn't earn any extra points. But, it makes heeling much easier to execute, and in the process not lose points for going wide, forging, and lagging etc. Head and shoulder cues for turns, halts, and speed changes will be very difficult for the dog to perceive if he's looking where he's going.


I take it you do not do any Agility, or you'd realize how silly it sounds to say that the dog has to be looking into your face to be able to read your head and shoulder cues. My dogs read them from fifteen feet away while going over a jump, looking straight ahead at the next jump, and running at full speed.

If your dog needs to be staring at you to read your body cues, you need to get his eyesight checked because there's something seriously wrong with his peripheral vision.

But it's also worth nothing that for Obedience, if you're heeling while turning your head to keep eye-contact with your dog, not only are you giving confusing signals to the dog (you're heeling straight but telling them you're turning left,) but that can be considered by some judges to be an extra/extended cue. Had a very experienced handler docked heavily for it last summer.


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## Miss Bugs

I just watched the video, it was NOT as bad as it felt! I couldn't figure out why everyone kept saying we did so good, I was thinking, "ya..compared to the previous runs!" but after watching it, it really wasn't THAT bad lol


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## Miss Bugs

video!
http://youtu.be/isJ1zM9Yg1M


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## Poly

TorachiKatashi said:


> I guess if I saw anyone training like that, I'd have to ask them, "What will happen if you throw the leash aside and continue heeling right now?"
> 
> If the answer was "Nothing," then that tells me that the leash is only there to soothe the paranoia of the handler (much like "Stay" and "Wait" cues,) which will go on to negatively affect the dog in the ring.
> 
> If the answer was literally anything else, then I'd bump them back down to Foundations class.
> 
> .


I guess all those NOI, OTCH and UDX handlers that used/use that approach are all "paranoid"? Don't think so. 

Someone doesn't want to use stay and wait commands or signals when they are allowed? That's fine with me. But the people who DO use them aren't "paranoid", any more than the people who DON'T use them are necessarily "putting too much pressure on their dog" (yes, I've heard that criticism expressed about the no-cues wait and stay). 

Those are simply different approachs to training. Just like you can train scent articles using the tie-down approach or the around-the-clock approach. Or train go-outs using a touch-target or a food lure. Etc, etc. 

It's not that one approach is 'correct' or 'better'. They are just different approaches to get to a goal. 

I've seen far too many top performance dogs trained using far too many different ways in all kinds of events to say that there is *only* one way to do things. 

The one thing that I don't have *any *use for is trainers - or handlers, for that matter - with an attitude of "it's my way or the highway" . I know where that attitude comes from, and it isn't a good place. Not saying that's you in particular, but it sure sounds like it from your post. Apologies if you're not.


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## trainingjunkie

I compete with 3 dogs in agility/rally/obedience. There are some very important differences between agility and obedience. 

In agility, the dogs are reading fairly LARGE motions. The handlers are using their voice, speed, stopping, and large arm gestures to navigate around a course.

In obedience, you lose your voice and all of your body cues are very subtle. There are no gross (as in HUGE) changes in pace and you can't bounce your hands or use postural pressure. It's very, very different. 

I want my dogs watching me closely in obedience. I want their eyes. They know to watch the course if we are in agility.


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## lil_fuzzy

I don't see why either heel training method results in the dog being trained twice. If you train off leash the dog learns the correct position next to you, so it then doesn't make any difference to the dog if you slap a leash on it. It knows the correct position.

If you train in leash, the dog learns the correct position next to you. The pitfall here is if you use the leash as a crutch to position the dog, and you fail to properly motivate the dog to stay in position because you don't need to (the dog can't leave anyway). But if you do it correctly and motivate the dog properly, it will make no difference if the dog is wearing a leash or not.

A leash is a good idea if you're working around distractions and you want to prevent the dog from self rewarding if you push him too much and he decides to check out a distraction. But that's the only use I can think of for a leash while training heel.

But the handler also needs to get used to handling a leash while heeling.


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## elrohwen

lil_fuzzy said:


> A leash is a good idea if you're working around distractions and you want to prevent the dog from self rewarding if you push him too much and he decides to check out a distraction. But that's the only use I can think of for a leash while training heel.


Yes, this. Watson can heel off leash in our field (fairly low distraction) but in a class with other dogs close by, he's eventually going to lose focus and self-reward by visiting other dogs. The leash isn't a training tool or a cue, just a way to keep him from dashing off until I can get his focus back. I don't see anything so horrible about that. Sure, I can (and will) train him to ignore distractions better, but he's 7 months old and finds other dogs and people very rewarding - it's not going to happen overnight.


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## Miss Bugs

I don't think its BAD to train heel with a leash on, I think the distinction though is training WITH a leash vs training ON a leash, its very easy to fall into the trap of using the leash to train, which is where you get problems with off leash heeling.


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## petpeeve

TorachiKatashi said:


> I take it you do not do any Agility, or you'd realize how silly it sounds to say that the dog has to be looking into your face to be able to read your head and shoulder cues. My dogs read them from fifteen feet away while going over a jump, looking straight ahead at the next jump, and running at full speed.
> 
> If your dog needs to be staring at you to read your body cues, you need to get his eyesight checked because there's something seriously wrong with his peripheral vision.
> 
> But it's also worth nothing that for Obedience, if you're heeling while turning your head to keep eye-contact with your dog, not only are you giving confusing signals to the dog (you're heeling straight but telling them you're turning left,) but that can be considered by some judges to be an extra/extended cue. Had a very experienced handler docked heavily for it last summer.


Tell you how I do it, fwiw.

For most of my guys I'll look straight out about 6', at the ground. I'm not looking directly at my dog but keeping him within MY peripheral vision. At the same time HE's looking directly at me, with 100% faith and trust that I won't lead him into the wall, ring gate, post, or other obstacles in the ring. The fact remains, that it would be difficult to say the least to obtain PRECISE heeling otherwise, if the dog were looking elsewhere. Key word: precision, which is what OB heeling is graded on, rather than the element of time as found in an agility run. That's not to say 'other ways' to heel won't yield acceptable or passable results, just that they likely won't earn the team the higher scores. One of my girls requires mutual full-time eye contact from my end of things. And with her it's just harder to implement the neccessary precision on my own behalf, especially say, during the figure 8 ex. And if my performance is sloppy it's usually reflected accordingly.

As far as head cues / extra commands ... extremely subtle are the operative words, in my experience. Besides, if the judge asks "are you ready" and you're already looking AT your dog when you respond "yes", and your head remains in that same position for the duration of the entire ex, I can't see how it would be considered an extra or extended cue. Frankly, I wouldn't enter under such a judge.


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## elrohwen

Miss Bugs said:


> I don't think its BAD to train heel with a leash on, I think the distinction though is training WITH a leash vs training ON a leash, its very easy to fall into the trap of using the leash to train, which is where you get problems with off leash heeling.


I agree with that. I think this applied more in the days of using leash corrections to teach the heel. If you taught it on leash with corrections, obviously the dog is going to behave differently when off leash. With +R methods you're rewarding the dog for correct position, regardless of the leash, so it should be easier to switch between the two. Not saying people never rely on the leash, but the leash is no longer a key part of the training technique as it was with corrections.


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## Miss Bugs

> I agree with that. I think this applied more in the days of using leash corrections to teach the heel. If you taught it on leash with corrections, obviously the dog is going to behave differently when off leash. With +R methods you're rewarding the dog for correct position, regardless of the leash, so it should be easier to switch between the two. Not saying people never rely on the leash, but the leash is no longer a key part of the training technique as it was with corrections.


no but even training R+ its simply very easy to fall into the trap of using the leash, you don't have to be meaning to use it to find yourself using it, heck its very easy to start using the leash as a crutch without even knowing your doing it. there is a local trainer here who uses streamers to help people realize what they are and are not doing with the leash, if you use the leash the streamer will rip lol.


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## elrohwen

Miss Bugs said:


> no but even training R+ its simply very easy to fall into the trap of using the leash, you don't have to be meaning to use it to find yourself using it, heck its very easy to start using the leash as a crutch without even knowing your doing it. there is a local trainer here who uses streamers to help people realize what they are and are not doing with the leash, if you use the leash the streamer will rip lol.


I like that idea! I do notice people relying on their leash in the classes I take, but most I would also say are not really using +R methods - they're getting frustrated and doing mini-leash pops (on a flat collar) when the dog's attention wanders. They probably don't know they're doing it either, and the instructors often ask people to focus on not using the leash.

Like I said, it definitely happens, but at least it's not an intrinsic part of the training method like it is for correction based training. I think on leash and off leash should both be trained and used, of course, I was just disagreeing with TorachiKatashi that if you're ever training heel on leash you must be doing it wrong.


----------



## Poly

trainingjunkie said:


> I compete with 3 dogs in agility/rally/obedience. There are some very important differences between agility and obedience.
> 
> In agility, the dogs are reading fairly LARGE motions. The handlers are using their voice, speed, stopping, and large arm gestures to navigate around a course.
> 
> In obedience, you lose your voice and all of your body cues are very subtle. There are no gross (as in HUGE) changes in pace and you can't bounce your hands or use postural pressure. It's very, very different.
> 
> I want my dogs watching me closely in obedience. I want their eyes. They know to watch the course if we are in agility.


+1

I would only add that Rally-O is somewhere in between. 

Your signals and body language do not have to be subtle. They can be as LARGE as you want, and pretty much anything you want (minor limitations in AKC RE). Vocal commands and cues can be whatever you want. There's also the idea of a 'course' rather than individual exercises. So in those respects it leans toward agility.

However, there is a *lot* of heeling and stationary work in 'heel position'. So in those respects it leans toward obedience

In Rally-O, you do want you dog's attention most of the time but you also want him to be paying some attention to the course, especially for jumps that might be comimg up. It's important for the dog to "collect himself" so he can jump correctly.


----------



## Poly

petpeeve said:


> Tell you how I do it, fwiw.
> 
> For most of my guys I'll look straight out about 6', at the ground. I'm not looking directly at my dog but keeping him within MY peripheral vision. At the same time HE's looking directly at me, with 100% faith and trust that I won't lead him into the wall, ring gate, post, or other obstacles in the ring. The fact remains, that it would be difficult to say the least to obtain PRECISE heeling otherwise, if the dog were looking elsewhere. Key word: precision, which is what OB heeling is graded on, rather than the element of time as found in an agility run. ....


That's what I TRY to do. Maybe my peripheral vision isn't as good as other people, but i do tend make eye contact at a halt. 





petpeeve said:


> As far as head cues / extra commands ... extremely subtle are the operative words, in my experience. ....


Unless your head cues are obvious - e.g., you are moving your head around like it is on a swivel - most judges won't score them. In some cases, they might not even see them. IME they are much more concerned about extra _hand_ signals - so they are mostly looking at your hands. A LOT of Obedience judges will score even small hand movements as an extra signal if they appear to be aiding the dog.


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## sassafras

Everything has been processed and Squash _officially_ has his RN.


----------



## Poly

sassafras said:


> Everything has been processed and Squash _officially_ has his RN.


Congratulations!! :whoo:

What's next, if you don't mind my asking?


----------



## sassafras

Poly said:


> Congratulations!! :whoo:
> 
> What's next, if you don't mind my asking?


Well there is an APDT rally trial here next month so we'll be doing novice there. And in AKC I think I will do some novice B for awhile to work on this ring distraction thing and my own ring nerves. Also we have a CAT at the end of this month that, if he qualifies, will be the third leg for his CA. A couple people in my rally class are trying to convince me to go for a CD but I remain unconvinced that that's my kind of thing for now. 

So anyway, he's a busy boy.


----------



## Shoul

sassafras said:


> Everything has been processed and Squash _officially_ has his RN.


Congrats! 

Simon and I will be attending our first real CARO trial this Sunday. There's 3 novice classes offered with a different judge for the first one, so he may be able to get his title, but I'm not going in the ring thinking that. I just hope I won't do a forward after a call front that's supposed to be a finish (have done that before) or that I at least catch myself so I re-do the station and not NQ.


----------



## Poly

lil_fuzzy said:


> The pitfall here is if you use the leash as a crutch to position the dog, and you fail to properly motivate the dog to stay in position because you don't need to (the dog can't leave anyway). But if you do it correctly and motivate the dog properly, it will make no difference if the dog is wearing a leash or not.


Using ANYTHING as a "crutch" is bad training. Good training uses TOOLS and TECHNIQUES, not crutches. 



lil_fuzzy said:


> A leash is a good idea if you're working around distractions and you want to prevent the dog from self rewarding if you push him too much and he decides to check out a distraction.


This is precisely when I would NOT use a leash. You teach your dog impulse control to prevent this. _ He may be on a leash for a while when you are teaching impulse control_, but the idea is to be teachng the impulse control, not to throw the leash on him.



lil_fuzzy said:


> But that's the only use I can think of for a leash while training heel.


With all due respect, it depends on how you teach precision heeling. You can't think of any because you don't do it that way. Others who do it that way can think of many reasons.

II helps if you avoid thinking of precision heeling as a walk or an extension of dog-walking, and think of it as a precision dance routine with two partners - dog and handler.


----------



## Flaming

Well Manna is going for her first Obedience class in about 1 1/2 hours.
Wish us luck? 
She's learning fast at home as is so I hope she'll pick up faster with the class as well, we're just having a little trouble with loose leash. 
The same school offers Rally as well so maybe if she picks up quickly we'll enter that some time.


----------



## Finkie_Mom

Just got back from my first formal obedience class with Kimma. She did so well! I was very impressed. Even did a couple of SFEs with strangers (which is HUGE for my formerly(?) reactive and fearful dog), a couple of recalls through 8 handler/dog teams with toys scattered on the ground, and a NICE sit/stay in line with other dogs. Her down/stay left something to be desired, but she was solid for the first couple of minutes. Her heeling pattern was also QUITE nice!

I'm so proud of her


----------



## petpeeve

K ... it seems more congrats and encouragement are in order here ... 



sassafras said:


> Everything has been processed and Squash _officially_ has his RN.


Yay ! : well done, ... and more cake for me :whoo: lol



Flaming said:


> Wish us luck?


(belated) good luck ! :rockon: update please



Finkie_Mom said:


> Just got back from my first formal obedience class with Kimma. She did so well! I was very impressed.


Great ! :clap2: glad to hear it went well


----------



## lil_fuzzy

Poly said:


> Using ANYTHING as a "crutch" is bad training. Good training uses TOOLS and TECHNIQUES, not crutches.
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely when I would NOT use a leash. You teach your dog impulse control to prevent this. _ He may be on a leash for a while when you are teaching impulse control_, but the idea is to be teachng the impulse control, not to throw the leash on him.


I completely agree. I agree with not using crutches in any form of dog training, and teaching impulse control.



Poly said:


> With all due respect, it depends on how you teach precision heeling. You can't think of any because you don't do it that way. Others who do it that way can think of many reasons.
> 
> II helps if you avoid thinking of precision heeling as a walk or an extension of dog-walking, and think of it as a precision dance routine with two partners - dog and handler.



I know how to use a leash to teach heeling, I just don't think it's necessary, and if it means you have to teach heel twice, then obviously it's not very efficient. Or if you think any other way means you have to teach it twice, then you don't know how to do it the way I would do it.

I do know how to teach precision heeling, and I do it off leash, and I see not reason to use a leash to do it. If you feel like explaining why using a leash is better, go for it. I'm always interested in different ways of doing things. A video demonstrating the technique would be even better.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Lil Fuzzy---

I won't presume to answer for Poly, but I would love to jump in to this conversation. 

I live in the midwest and used to train with an OTCH 15 handler and an AKC High Point Handler of the Year. These two were not the same person but both were in the same class. I trained under both of them. They nearly define what is possible in obedience handling. I assure you that they do NOT train off lead and they do not have to re-train heeling. I learned under their method. 

Here's a summary of the thoughts behind that method: Heel the dog. A lot. Keep the heeling absolutely flawless. Imprint that picture without failure. Let the dog learn the cadence and pulse of it. Keep it perfect. Then, if done well, you essentially just snap on a tab here and there and compete off leash. THIS WORKS. About 80% of all of the heel work is done on leash even for the OTCH dogs so that the picture is always PERFECT. These dogs are almost exclusively in prong collars so that the correction is light and immediate. The handler rarely issues the correction, rather, the handler deliberately holds the leash in such a manner that the the dog self-corrects the instant that they are a half an inch forward, out, or back.

I now train almost exclusively off leash. However, I will NEVER achieve their level of perfection with my off-leash method. I am doomed to score in the mid 190s because I train off lead. If I was chasing national ranking or a 200, I would have to put my leash (and probably my prong) back on. 

My goals are titles and fun, not OTCHs and Championships, so I am able to go off lead. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the easiest way to chase perfection for competition heeling is on lead.


----------



## Flaming

Update on Manna
Not bad, I did teach her a few things before but most of it was new stuff, and despite being the youngest and largest one there she was behaving pretty well. With the exception of loose leash walking, I didn't quite agree with how walking was being taught though. She had us wrap the leash around the dogs midsection in a way that they would correct themselves, but while it work for the dogs with short fur and smaller dogs, the only thing it done for us was rip out a bunch of undercoat and make Manna chew the lead again ( a habit we had broken 2 weeks ago with no incidents till now). 
The rest she picked up real fast as the rest was positive reinforcement and her food drive is through the roof. 

She was probably the 3rd most well behaved out of 7 dogs, my mothers dog who we all thought was brain damaged was probably the best behaved and learned the fastest which surprised both of us. But Manna was officially done about 10 minutes before everyone else. Nothing could get her motivated she was just that tired.

Over all not bad for a 4& 1/2 month old l, the second youngest was 2 years. I am looking for a different way to teach loose leash though as the clumps of fur were huge, and she just dragged me anyways.


----------



## elrohwen

Congrats to Squash!

And congrats to Manna for being such a good puppy at her first class. I'm not a fan of the leash walking method. Not sure if you're looking for advice or just venting, but I'd work on getting attention and using treats to keep her in the position you want and reward when she's there. I like using a front clip harness for management on walks, but use a collar for training and in class. The front clip does sort of "self-correct" - if he pulls, it pulls back awkwardly and he can't lean into it, but I don't consider it a training tool so much as a management tool so every hour long walk isn't one drawn out training session. The real training happens by teaching him what position to be in. I'd ask them for a different recommendation since it's obviously not a good method for your dog, and see what they say. They should be flexible enough to recommend something else if it's not working for you.


----------



## Miss Bugs

Shoul said:


> Congrats!
> 
> Simon and I will be attending our first real CARO trial this Sunday. There's 3 novice classes offered with a different judge for the first one, so he may be able to get his title, but I'm not going in the ring thinking that. I just hope I won't do a forward after a call front that's supposed to be a finish (have done that before) or that I at least catch myself so I re-do the station and not NQ.


lol thats exactly how Gem and I NQd our first trial stupid me did a call front forward right instead of finish right


----------



## Poly

trainingjunkie said:


> Lil Fuzzy---
> 
> I won't presume to answer for Poly, but I would love to jump in to this conversation.
> 
> I live in the midwest and used to train with an OTCH 15 handler and an AKC High Point Handler of the Year. These two were not the same person but both were in the same class. I trained under both of them. They nearly define what is possible in obedience handling. I assure you that they do NOT train off lead and they do not have to re-train heeling. I learned under their method.
> 
> Here's a summary of the thoughts behind that method: Heel the dog. A lot. Keep the heeling absolutely flawless. Imprint that picture without failure. Let the dog learn the cadence and pulse of it. Keep it perfect. Then, if done well, you essentially just snap on a tab here and there and compete off leash. THIS WORKS. About 80% of all of the heel work is done on leash even for the OTCH dogs so that the picture is always PERFECT. These dogs are almost exclusively in prong collars so that the correction is light and immediate. The handler rarely issues the correction, rather, the handler deliberately holds the leash in such a manner that the the dog self-corrects the instant that they are a half an inch forward, out, or back.
> 
> I now train almost exclusively off leash. However, I will NEVER achieve their level of perfection with my off-leash method. I am doomed to score in the mid 190s because I train off lead. If I was chasing national ranking or a 200, I would have to put my leash (and probably my prong) back on.
> 
> My goals are titles and fun, not OTCHs and Championships, so I am able to go off lead. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the easiest way to chase perfection for competition heeling is on lead.


Thank you, trainingjunkie. You explained it much better than I could have. 

A trainer once described it by saying that precision heeling means teaching and maintaining the dog's 'muscle memory' and that once you've got that - no matter how achieved - the dog can perform off-leash at a high level. But you still have to maintain it, because 'muscle memory' will fade with time. So it is very much like learning and keeping up a dance routine. Makes sense.

In this area, a popular method to teach - and maintain - precision heeling follows Terri Arnold's approach or something very much like it, which relies on a lot of on-leash work along the lines that you described. I've noticed a trend to calling the method "reminder training" . That's probably because "correction training" has a bad name. But back in the day, it had a good name compared to the old-school types. Only a few years ago (really very few, like four or five years), Terri's methods were considered to be a "positive training", whatever that meant. So go figure. 

Names may change, but the principles stay the same.

There are certainly other approaches to this, and I would never say that one approach _always_ does a better job. But IME, the high scorers do tend to be the ones that use one of the on-leash methods for these exercises.

And FYI, we do use click-and-reward training for a LOT for other things and even for heeling in the initial stages. 

Something that seems to be forgotten in these discussions here is that you can't teach *precision* heeling until your dog is already paying close attention to you AND knows how to heel at a certain level. We sometimes call that "rally heeling". Not a knock on rally-o, just a shorthand description on that level of heeling performance that you need before you can start teaching precision heeling.


----------



## Flaming

elrohwen said:


> Congrats to Squash!
> 
> And congrats to Manna for being such a good puppy at her first class. I'm not a fan of the leash walking method. Not sure if you're looking for advice or just venting, but I'd work on getting attention and using treats to keep her in the position you want and reward when she's there. I like using a front clip harness for management on walks, but use a collar for training and in class. The front clip does sort of "self-correct" - if he pulls, it pulls back awkwardly and he can't lean into it, but I don't consider it a training tool so much as a management tool so every hour long walk isn't one drawn out training session. The real training happens by teaching him what position to be in. I'd ask them for a different recommendation since it's obviously not a good method for your dog, and see what they say. They should be flexible enough to recommend something else if it's not working for you.


tips and recommendations are needed on this issue as this instructor was set on her way when I asked her, her response was, " the discomfort of losing fur will teach her not to pull" . I disagree because if people were pulling hair off my back and stomach area I would pull harder and try to get the lead off to get away, which is what Manna did try to do before I opted to work on "leave it" instead. All I can see this method doing is providing me a patchy newfie who hates leads.

her other methods for other things were all positive though and since she's the only obedience trainer in town (besides a very expensive solo trainer that I definitely can't afford) I kind of want to stay in the class, and she's good at allowing us to work on other obedience commands during class's if we think one needs more practice than another, which would be "leave it" for Manna.

I was using a halti before for management, but she grew out of it quickly and I need to buy a new one.
If possible I want to train her to loose leash with a collar or head harness but to pull with a body harness for when we try dry land mushing in the future (after her joints are good if course). If you have any ideas I want to hear them.


----------



## elrohwen

Flaming, that's a shame! I understand that trainers have their methods for puppy and basic classes that they've found to work, but if it's not working for a particular dog or owner they must have more options in their toolbox to offer. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with using a halti as a management tool on walks, and then working on the collar separately. 

I'm sure others will have better suggestions, but I started by holding a treat at my knee and having the puppy walk along with me for a couple steps. We practiced this a lot, and I gradually moved the treat away until I was just holding it at waist level, then not holding any treat at all. I also spontaneously reward for him walking correctly (at first it was just with a loose leash, now I reward when he's in heel position), when I haven't asked for it, so he knows that being in that position is awesome and seeks it out on his own.

And it's definitely possible to train pulling on a harness and loose leash walking on a collar - Squash does mushing and just got his rally title, so he is great at both.


----------



## CptJack

Agreed re: other tools in the box. 

Kylie was altogether too small for holding the threat at my knee (which is not an issue with a newfie!) Her I just consistently called back into position and walked again. She wanted to go and was pretty receptive for HOW to get to go with me. Unfortunately, she pulls like a madthing when my husband is on the other end of the leash. 

Thud has been kind of creepy weird and I don't really understand. I pretty much put a leash on him, he put himself at my left knee and... stays there. I've honestly never seen another puppy do that, though. Ever. Not that I'm complaining.


----------



## Flaming

The treat thing sounds like a good idea, though the knee would be too short. Manna's tall and all legs. So waist height would be starting height. 
Roughly how long for a puppy to clue in normally? I'm still looking at training long term but at 50 odd pounds and growing, my muscles are like a butterflies resistance pulling on her. She doesn't notice me pulling back and that is dangerous in a busy situation like in Wednesday classes.


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## elrohwen

Watson has a fantastic heel right now at 7.5 months (fantastic for his age anyway - we wouldn't win an obedience competition) and we started doing this at 10 weeks. I'd say it was a couple months before he really got it and would seek out the position on walks. He's also not the brightest bulb, so timing will vary. I'm sure smart and focused dogs get it much faster.

With that said, he's still so distractable. He can heel beautifully when he's focused, and the second we're done he's pulling off towards the dog next to him. *facepalm* The front clip harness works great for walks though and he's getting much better about not pulling towards every dog he passes. Ror the most part he no longer pulls just walking along, or when people without dogs pass, and if I call his name he will usually seek out his position at my left leg. I know that in a collar he would still pull though, so I limit the collar to training times in specific environments. He's only 35lbs, but he will just lean right into a normal harness and sometimes his collar if it's something he really wants to get at.

So with Manna, start with the treat at whatever level her head is, and let her nibble as you go. Gradually start holding the treat in front of her without letting her nibble the whole time, then move it to waist height in front of you, then have it in your treat pouch or pocket without her being able to see it. If she breaks and gets distracted, it can help to walk backwards and get following you, then when you walk forwards she should swing around into the right position (works for my dog anyway). We actually did an exercise in class where we walked backwards with the dog nibbling a treat, then we swung around so we were facing forward. It's hard to explain, but the dog basically traveled in a straight line while I walked backwards, then did a 180 degree turn to my right so he never left my left leg.


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## Flaming

elrohwen said:


> Watson has a fantastic heel right now at 7.5 months (fantastic for his age anyway - we wouldn't win an obedience competition) and we started doing this at 10 weeks. I'd say it was a couple months before he really got it and would seek out the position on walks. He's also not the brightest bulb, so timing will vary. I'm sure smart and focused dogs get it much faster.
> 
> With that said, he's still so distractable. He can heel beautifully when he's focused, and the second we're done he's pulling off towards the dog next to him. *facepalm* The front clip harness works great for walks though and he's getting much better about not pulling towards every dog he passes. Ror the most part he no longer pulls just walking along, or when people without dogs pass, and if I call his name he will usually seek out his position at my left leg. I know that in a collar he would still pull though, so I limit the collar to training times in specific environments. He's only 35lbs, but he will just lean right into a normal harness and sometimes his collar if it's something he really wants to get at.
> 
> So with Manna, start with the treat at whatever level her head is, and let her nibble as you go. Gradually start holding the treat in front of her without letting her nibble the whole time, then move it to waist height in front of you, then have it in your treat pouch or pocket without her being able to see it. If she breaks and gets distracted, it can help to walk backwards and get following you, then when you walk forwards she should swing around into the right position (works for my dog anyway). We actually did an exercise in class where we walked backwards with the dog nibbling a treat, then we swung around so we were facing forward. It's hard to explain, but the dog basically traveled in a straight line while I walked backwards, then did a 180 degree turn to my right so he never left my left leg.


I think I get it, it sounds like what the class was doing except take away the weird lead waist loop and add food. 

I'll start on that today then and hopefully she'll learn fast. She's geniius but has 0.1 seconds of attention span.

Thank you


----------



## Shoul

Well we had a good learning experience yesterday. In the first round I walked right passed a sign without seeing it (grrr). In the second round, he was a lot more distracted/sniffing and I should've been way more vocal to keep his attention. However, looking back at the videos, his back legs were looking like he was struggling to hold in a much needed bathroom break poor guy.

Finally he came first in his third round with a score of 198/200! So we have one Q :wink:








Here's a video of his final and best round:


----------



## DJEtzel

Nice video Shoul! Is it sad that my worst anxiety about entering a rally trial is that I will not remember what direction left/right are or what position "360" or "270" puts me at? lol.

This is what I worked on along with finding heel position with Recon today. He kind of surprised the hell out of me. I have NEVER practiced stand or stand/stay with him before... except standing for me on the grooming table, but there was no stay for that and I can't imagine he generalized that? I did click at the wrong time on the third go as he moved his leg, which I didn't mean to do as I was trying to click before he broke the stay like I thought he was going to do and kicked myself for already, so no need to point that out, but what I'm wondering... because I've never trained a stand/stay for exam before... is after I click and come to him on that third repitition, he bounces a little/moves his feet to get the treat out of my hand. He was doing that every time BEFORE I started filming as well... and I don't actually release him until after I reward... Do you think this will be an issue as far as keeping his feet in one spot on a real SFE, and if so, what can I do to stop him from moving... I've already clicked so I HAVE to reward, and I can't see me doing anything different between the first two/last and that third one that would effect him. Do you think I should let him get set up straight first/give him more time? I noticed that the third one when he moved, he did so because one foot was not underneat him and was awkward. Opinions? I'm brand new at this. 






eta; also, seriously, how can I embed a video!? eta; guh, five or six tries and I figured it out. lol


----------



## petpeeve

Poly said:


> A trainer once described it by saying that precision heeling means teaching and maintaining the dog's 'muscle memory' and that once you've got that - no matter how achieved - the dog can perform off-leash at a high level. But you still have to maintain it, because 'muscle memory' will fade with time.


But ... is that TRULY 'muscle memory', or is the dog really and simply just working to avoid a leash correction ??? 

To me, the phrase 'muscle memory' should be used to describe a behaviour that is NOT arbitrarily imposed. ie: agility weave poles - where no leash is used, and the dog is subconsciously performing an action as a result of a previous reinforcement history. Again, imo, punishment is not part of the equation.


----------



## petpeeve

trainingjunkie said:


> I am doomed to score in the mid 190s because I train off lead.


Are all *5* points being lost exclusively on heeling ? my guess is, probably not.


----------



## trainingjunkie

petpeeve said:


> Are all *5* points being lost exclusively on heeling ? my guess is, probably not.


No. But all *5* points are being lost on exercises that my previous trainer would perfect on leash. Fronts are taught on leash. Finishes are taught on leash. Jumps are taught on leash. Recalls are taught on leash. Go outs are started in chutes. Retrieves are done on leash for a long time. It's just an entirely different approach. It's amazingly effective. However, it just doesn't allow the dog to ever make an error. It's a whole different way of training. It works. I just don't like it.

It isn't just the heeling that is trained on lead. It's almost all of it. The teams rehearse a perfect picture from the very begining using leashes and chutes. The dogs don't get to experiment or figure it out. They are clearly shown the "correct" way to do things. Then, after they know how to do it right, the props/leads are faded. 

This method develops very steady and precise dogs. My dogs are more random. They are much higher arousal. Sometimes the wheels totally come off. Most times they don't. For me, agility is my favorite sport. Therefore, I teach my obedience skills using agility-friendly techniques. If obedience was my passion, I might consider a different approach.


----------



## Poly

petpeeve said:


> But ... is that TRULY 'muscle memory', or is the dog really and simply just working to avoid a leash correction ???


Of course, we can't get inside the dog's brain, so we can't say what is going on in there. 

However, we can talk about *behaviors*. I am quite familiar with the body language that usually indicates avoidance behavior, and I would say that based on that, dogs that are trained for precision heeling using reminders are generally not showing that kind of behavior. I know this is a generalization, but it is one based on experience. 

So I would say that this training DOES train muscle memory and NOT avoidance behavior.



petpeeve said:


> To me, the phrase 'muscle memory' should be used to describe a behaviour that is NOT arbitrarily imposed. ie: agility weave poles - where no leash is used, and the dog is subconsciously performing an action as a result of a previous reinforcement history. Again, imo, punishment is not part of the equation.


I have trained and competed in agility, and that is not what we are talking about here. That's a different type of muscle memory. 

In human terms, training agility is more akin to training for a sport like tennis, whereas training precision heeling is more akin to learning and polishing a dance routine. 

In any event, you simply don't train for agility obstacles and jumps in the same way that you train precision heeling, no matter which approach you follow. End of story.

I avoid the word "punishment" - even though it is a valid learning theory term - because most people don't know enough to use the word _properly_. I prefer to use "*reminders*". Which is actually an accurate description, because the dogs are being "reminded" to do something that they have already learned. 

BTW, although we don't insist on the 'eyes-on heel' - such as the one that is expected in, say, Schutzhund - I know trainers who do insist on it. They tend to use a LOT of reminders in training that skill.

So I am curious. Have you observed dogs actually *doing* precision heeling that were trained with this approach (either in competition obedience or in Schutzhund)? Do they appear to you to be exhibiting avoidance behavior? I've got to say that for myself, I've never actually seen it either in the ring or during training.


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## petpeeve

Poly said:


> So I am curious. Have you observed dogs actually *doing* precision heeling that were trained with this approach (either in competition obedience or in Schutzhund)? Do they appear to you to be exhibiting avoidance behavior? I've got to say that for myself, I've never actually seen it either in the ring or during training.


If you're asking whether I've seen dogs that have been trained to heel using 'corrections', sure I have. Seen plenty of them. To the watchful eye some do exhibit avoidance behaviours, some don't. I've also seen plenty of dogs taught by 'choose to heel' and in virtually all cases there seems to be a distinct absense of stress. At least those are my observations. Doesn't really matter on the scoresheet though. Aside from whining or barking, dogs don't get dinged for stress, no matter how miniscule or grand the manifestation may be. As long as they maintain position that's usually all that counts.

Interesting to note that CKC has a rule which states a judge will choose a happy working dog over a more precise one, don't know if AKC is similar.


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## lil_fuzzy

trainingjunkie said:


> Lil Fuzzy---
> 
> I won't presume to answer for Poly, but I would love to jump in to this conversation.
> 
> I live in the midwest and used to train with an OTCH 15 handler and an AKC High Point Handler of the Year. These two were not the same person but both were in the same class. I trained under both of them. They nearly define what is possible in obedience handling. I assure you that they do NOT train off lead and they do not have to re-train heeling. I learned under their method.
> 
> Here's a summary of the thoughts behind that method: Heel the dog. A lot. Keep the heeling absolutely flawless. Imprint that picture without failure. Let the dog learn the cadence and pulse of it. Keep it perfect. Then, if done well, you essentially just snap on a tab here and there and compete off leash. THIS WORKS. About 80% of all of the heel work is done on leash even for the OTCH dogs so that the picture is always PERFECT. These dogs are almost exclusively in prong collars so that the correction is light and immediate. The handler rarely issues the correction, rather, the handler deliberately holds the leash in such a manner that the the dog self-corrects the instant that they are a half an inch forward, out, or back.
> 
> I now train almost exclusively off leash. However, I will NEVER achieve their level of perfection with my off-leash method. I am doomed to score in the mid 190s because I train off lead. If I was chasing national ranking or a 200, I would have to put my leash (and probably my prong) back on.
> 
> My goals are titles and fun, not OTCHs and Championships, so I am able to go off lead. However, there is no doubt in my mind that the easiest way to chase perfection for competition heeling is on lead.


That's interesting. How is the leash held so the dog self corrects? Do you have a photo or video?


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## trainingjunkie

I don't have video of it, but I can describe it. You hold the leash in both hands, left hand on the bottom with the right hand on top of it, both thumbs up. Your hands are placed over your right hip. The leash is held short enough that the only place where the dog will not recieve a correction is in perfect heel position. You don't move your hands. You just walk around and the dog feels his way into heel postion. If your dog were to break eye contact, you would/could give a leash correction by lifting up both of your hands as a single unit then immediately lowering them back over your hip.

Please note: I am only describing it, not advocating for it. I hated it and quit. I do nearly all of my training off leash. Sometime I snap one on to a flat collar, particularly on figure 8s.


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## MrsBoats

Took my baby boy Ocean to a APDT Rally training party this weeked. Here he is working on a L2 course. He's starting to "get" the working game and that it's a fun game to play. I'm hoping to bring him out and debut him in AKC rally this coming April. 






Go Baby O!!


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## elrohwen

Beautiful boy! How old is he now?


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## MrsBoats

elrohwen said:


> Beautiful boy! How old is he now?


Thank you...he's my little, sweet steady Eddie. He's going be 18 months in about 2 weeks.  So...he's still my baby dog.


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## 3doglady

Shoals & MrsBoats, nice videos! 

We qualified for our first leg yesterday, even after blowing through 2 signs (called both as do-overs, so 6 pts there), managed to get 4th place. It wasn't our best, but at least we have our first competition under our belts. We arrived early and were the last person at the event to compete, (literally, the very last). Leann sniffed through the 1st sign, then I regained her focus on the 2nd. There were some lags and sniffs resulting in a tight leash a few times. Over-all, not our best. I think I may need to consider working with her outdoors when she's tired.

Congratulations Sassafrass


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## Poly

lil_fuzzy said:


> That's interesting. How is the leash held so the dog self corrects? Do you have a photo or video?


That technique is used by some trainers who want the "eyes -on heel". I'm not saying this is wrong, but it can lead to a 'wrap-around' heel if you're not careful. Not a problem in Schutzhund - where that is allowed - but in Obedience many judges will score this as crowding. It's usually not an NQ unless it is extreme, but you can be scored for it. And it's actually a hard behavior to undo, so you constantly have to be checking to make sure that isn't happening. 

So we try to avoid that and we do it a little differently.

First, though, here is the essential principle. It's EXTREMELY important to apply reminders BEFORE the dog makes a mistake, and not apply one when it isn't needed. Otherwise, the reminder DOES really become a correction or something else. How can you know about something before it happens? Only if you've already been heeling with the dog for some time and if you already have a good idea where those mistakes tend to happen. Then you have observed how your dog acts just BEFORE he makes the mistake. Are you going to catch all of them. Of course not. But you also have to allow your dog to do the precision heel correctly without any reminders. 

As I have said before and at the risk of being repetitive: YOU CAN'T TEACH PRECISION HEELING UNTIL YOU HAVE TAUGHT AND PROOFED HEELING TO A DEGREE. 

Here's an example. Let's say you find that your dog has a tendency to 'float' during the slow portion of the heeling exercise - which is a fairly common scorable error. Why would you put a tight leash on him - or give him a reminder - during the normal and fast portions? What would you be reminding him to do? He's already doing those correctly. He may not even need a lead at all during those parts of the exercise. If we could magically remove the lead completely during those parts, we would do it. That's why we use a LIGHT lead - so we avoid applying any leash pressure at all unless it is part of what we want to do. 

If you want a more complete description/video of the type of training I am talking about, the best place would be Terri Arnold's books and videos, or working with a trainer that bases their approach on them.


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## Poly

petpeeve said:


> Are all *5* points being lost exclusively on heeling ? my guess is, probably not.


Why do you say "probably not"? It would be quite common for a team to get -5 ( or even more) of a deduction just in the Heel Free exercise or in the Signal exercise. In fact, a -5 would be considered a decent performance.


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## petpeeve

Poly said:


> Why do you say "probably not"? It would be quite common for a team to get -5 ( or even more) of a deduction just in the Heel Free exercise or in the Signal exercise. In fact, a -5 would be considered a decent performance.


It's also fairly common for a .5 deduction here and there for ie: crooked fronts, crooked finishes, no sits, cutting corner on BJ, slight movement during MS, rolling the db, etc. If a team gets consistently perfect scores for every excercise with the exception of heeling, specifically, well that's a different story. I just wonder, how common is that?

That said, heeling is the typical go-to excercise for runoffs, for good reason.


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## Poly

petpeeve said:


> If a team gets consistently perfect scores for every excercise with the exception of heeling, specifically, well that's a different story. I just wonder, how common is that?


A perfect score - no deductions - would be exceptional in _any_ of the non-group exercises. As you point out, there are many minor errors that can be scored. 

Heeling is quite often - although not always - the exercise that scores the most deductions. It wouldn't be all that unusual for a team to lose substantial points (e.g., -5) in heeling and have either minor deductions or no deductions in each of the other exercises. 

It would be a bit more unusual for a team to lose substantial points in another exercise and do perfect or almost perfect in the heeling exercise(s). But I have seen that happen as well. 

You have to pay attention to *all* of the exercises and aim for a perfect score in each of them. 




petpeeve said:


> That said, heeling is the typical go-to excercise for runoffs, for good reason.


That might have been in the back-story, but the _official_ reason why heeling - specifically, a heel off leash - is the "go-to" exercise for runoffs in both AKC and UKC is because that's what the rules require.


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## petpeeve

Poly said:


> That might have been in the back-story, but the _official_ reason why heeling - specifically, a heel off leash - is the "go-to" exercise for runoffs in both AKC and UKC is because that's what the rules require.


Interesting, but that's not the case with CKC. 

In CKC, the judge will require the teams to perform all (or the same element) of any excercise from the relevant class. So, theortically, it could be the BJ, F8, SFE, RoF, etc. The exception being Utility, where the prescribed run-off exercise is always Signals (or any element thereof). 
HIT tie-breakers are always HF, often with extended fast and/or slow pace segments thrown in to make the judge's job easier, lol.


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## Poly

Yes - I knew that. No disrespect intended for our friends up north. I just wanted the US competitors who might read this to know what is the case here.


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## kadylady

Hi everyone, super new to Rally but have been "stalking" this thread for a while. I started an Intro to Rally class with Luke last month just for something fun to do with him as I felt I was neglecting him by doing all of these agility classes with Zoey. We have had 3 classes so far and I would say we are both enjoying it a lot. First class we learned the basic manuvers and the next 2 classes we review new manuvers then take turns practicing a course. Last week we did the course twice on leash and then once off leash (for dogs that could handle it). She had us do it off leash so that we would be forced to use our voice more and that made such a huge difference for Luke. He was so much more engaged and focused. I have a video of the one on leash and then the off leash. (There was a spot in the corner that all of the dogs were obsessed with, our classes are at a doggy day care facility so who knows what they were smelling) I definitely need to work on improving Luke's leave it and he does love to sniff. My instructor in encouraging me to consider competing.... Anyway I have really enjoyed watching everyone's videos and reading/learning. 

Here's my video. The better off leash one starts at about 2 mins.


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## elrohwen

Very nice! He looks like he's having a lot of fun. I love that tail wagging the whole time.


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## trainingjunkie

My Gator won the High Combined Rally award for the highest scoring dog in Excellent and Advanced B today! And got his 3rd RAE leg!


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## MrsBoats

Congratulations!!! That is great (and very cute dog too!)


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## MonicaBH

DJEtzel said:


> The issue in my case is NOT the standing still though. Frag has GREAT obedience and will stand there until the cows come home, but MAY growl at the judge which at this point in time isn't a risk I want to take because of the repercussions. He won't move away or towards the judge, he might just growl at him. Which is all nerve, not obedience.


_Temperament
The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. The dog must not be timid, shrinking behind its master or handler; it should not be nervous, looking about or upward with anxious expression or showing nervous reactions, such as tucking of tail, to strange sounds or sights. Lack of confidence under any surroundings is not typical of good character. Any of the above deficiencies in character which indicate shyness must be penalized as very serious faults and any dog exhibiting pronounced indications of these must be excused from the ring. It must be possible for the judge to observe the teeth and to determine that both testicles are descended. Any dog that attempts to bite the judge must be disqualified. The ideal dog is a working animal with an incorruptible character combined with body and gait suitable for the arduous work that constitutes its primary purpose._

I don't know if I'll ever be able to compete with Kaia due to the same things; her breed's standard reads similarly to that of the GSD.


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## DJEtzel

MonicaBH said:


> _
> I don't know if I'll ever be able to compete with Kaia due to the same things; her breed's standard reads similarly to that of the GSD. _


_

This is where Rally and Agility come in handy, I suppose. There are other non-contact options, at least. 

Though I was terrified when Frag had to get measured for CPE... nothing happened, but the hands on made me want to puke while I was trying to hold it together for Frag's sake._


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## MonicaBH

DJEtzel said:


> This is where Rally and Agility come in handy, I suppose. There are other non-contact options, at least.
> 
> Though I _was_ terrified when Frag had to get measured for CPE... nothing happened, but the hands on made me want to puke while I was trying to hold it together for Frag's sake.


I thought Clyde was a strong nerved dog and could handle the SFE, but in our first trial, he cowered like I beat him daily. At this point in Kaia's training, she would run like a cray. I also know, though, that these are the faults of my individual dog and have to base my competition on them and what they can handle. I couldn't expect for the competition to change because my dogs don't live up to the standard.

That being said, Kaia is in her first CGC class and we are working our balls off to get her OK with strangers. It may or may not happen. My goal is to do therapy work with her at least, but I'd love to get her into OB & Rally. We're plodding along slow & steady, like a tortoise.


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## DJEtzel

MonicaBH said:


> I thought Clyde was a strong nerved dog and could handle the SFE, but in our first trial, he cowered like I beat him daily. At this point in Kaia's training, she would run like a cray. I also know, though, that these are the faults of my individual dog and have to base my competition on them and what they can handle. I couldn't expect for the competition to change because my dogs don't live up to the standard.
> 
> That being said, Kaia is in her first CGC class and we are working our balls off to get her OK with strangers. It may or may not happen. My goal is to do therapy work with her at least, but I'd love to get her into OB & Rally. We're plodding along slow & steady, like a tortoise.


Slow and steady wins the race, right? 

I got Frag's CGC and that was enough of an accomplishment of his life for me... we dabble in Agility, but he is just happy to go to the park every day and not be subjected to the people everywhere. So we may try Rally for my own benefit, but probably won't try doing much else because I know he'd just hate it and I don't want to put him in the position where he has to tolerate something for my sake. Sir is going to be the therapy dog, he loves it and is taking his TDI test this month. Recon's taking his CGC and will probably do nothing but a lot of agility and then some obedience in his life.


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## sassafras

We did our first APDT Rally Trial today. It was a mixed bag of good and bad... bad, I totally missed a sign - which in APDT is an automatic NQ. OOPSIE DAISY! 

Having said that... Squash was really engaged and "on" today... he gave me more attention and enthusiasm heeling than I think he ever has at a trial. He's usually very, very distracted and while his attention did wander here and there today he was really easy to get back. I'm super, super proud of him because distraction and "checking out" has been something we've really struggled with. I spoke to the judge afterwards and we would have scored 202 (out of 210) if I hadn't walked by the sign (and assuming we hadn't lost any points on it), and she had really nice things to say about our performance so I'm thrilled despite the NQ. (I think she was more disappointed by the NQ than I was, LOL). 

Anyway, here's some video. At the end is where she's telling me how great we did except that I missed a sign.


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## kadylady

Luke and I went to a Fun Match today, first time in any type of competition environment for both of us. He did really awesome, I was so proud of him. He was a bit distracted and unfocused the first 3 or so signs but then was great after that. I think it is safe to say we are both enjoying Rally very much and we are only 5 weeks into it!


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## Kyllobernese

I have always been interested in Rally but nobody teaches it around here. Just found out on Saturday that there is someone going to start teaching but it is about an hour drive from me. I may look into it but at the present time it sounds like it will be in the evening and I am not great for driving at night if I can avoid it. If they decided to have it earlier I may go as I would like to learn how to do it so when Kris, my Doberman pup, is old enough (she is not four months yet) I will have an idea what it is all about.

I may take Lucy as she has had one round of Obedience classes and some Foundation Agility so it would be good for her. She is 14 months old so will not be ready for Agility trials for quite a while yet.


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## Shoul

Simon got his CARO Novice title! Here's our 3rd leg with a score of 196 





We then attempted going into advanced land. I am so happy with him! He did not get a single case of the sniffers (minus the food bowls) or the zoomies, plus not having a leash anymore is much less cumbersome I just messed up and stepped over the line at the jump and we'd never really practice distance stuff. When I first asked him to jump he didn't seem to understand it was ok to leave my side then. Also, adding food distractions to my repertoire would be good too!


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## Flaming

Well since Manna scored 2nd in her obedience class, I've been looking into CGN cert. Sadly the classes for that are during working hours. 
How hard do you think it would be for me to get her ready on our own using youtube videos? 

Test wise I think I can take a day off work for that since my boss is an animal lover.


edit: I use kikopups videos but if you know any other that'll help I'd love to hear it


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## DJEtzel

Flaming said:


> Well since Manna scored 2nd in her obedience class, I've been looking into CGN cert. Sadly the classes for that are during working hours.
> How hard do you think it would be for me to get her ready on our own using youtube videos?
> 
> Test wise I think I can take a day off work for that since my boss is an animal lover.
> 
> 
> edit: I use kikopups videos but if you know any other that'll help I'd love to hear it


It's not hard at all to train for a CGC/CGN on your own. I didn't take prep classes for Frag or Recon.


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## Miss Bugs

BTW I have to thank whoever on this thread said they trained stand for exam by teaching it as just another distraction for a stand stay, I don't recall who it was, but as soon as I read it, I started trying that with Gem who was EXTREMELY spooked about the exercise,like if someone walked within 3 feet of her she would run away cringing, within weeks she was letting people touch her, barely moving with me several feet away, I can now leave her off leash walk 10 feet away, not even looking at her, and 4-5 people in a row can walk up to her, touch her, reach over her etc.. and she does not even cringe never mind move. I just practice it as another distraction, I will leave her in a stand, and start jumping in circle screaming and waving my arms..then reward her for staying. I will leave her in a stay, go rushing up to her, give her a treat for staying and wander off, I will leave her in a stay, run around her, grab her butt and run back in front of her, reward her for staying. all kinds of things like that, a stand for exam no longer even phases her, its just another distraction, and not even a hard one at that!


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## trainingjunkie

YAY!!! So glad that it's working for you!


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## Miss Bugs

well that was one way to prove my dog... I took Gem to the park with a bunch of cones and signs and set up a mini course of the signs she struggles with or is just learning, such as the send over jump, call front while running, moving stand walk around etc.. so we are working on this when I hear yelling...its a guy calling his dog, a big yellow lab, and it's barrelling at Gem totally ignoring his owner who is running after him yelling! at that point I was not expecting her to focus on the coarse lol she is young and was off leash, I just wanted her to keep her focus on me and not the dog, which worked because, with Gem ignoring him the dog wander off to sniff a tree instead, at that point the dogs owner was still trying to catch up to his dog, so to prevent any other issues I put Gem in a down and walked over and grabbed the dudes dog till he could get there, I don't know this dog, he might try to start something with Gem after all, Gem will finish it, but she wont start it, so I leave Gem and I am on the ground holding this dog who is friggen crazy, yanking all over the place doing back flips, trying to pull out of his collar, dragging me on my knee's through the dirt etc I tried to bribe him with treats to no avail lol.. till the guy got to me with his leash and grabbed his dog(who he could barely control either) apologized profusely and left, as soon as he was a few feet away from my coarse I started working with Gem again like nothing happened..and she got right back to work, I was very proud of her! quite a contrast it was though! 2 young dogs, matched for size, one under total voice control, the other under no kind of control lol.


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## Kyllobernese

Took Lucy to her first Rally class. I haven't really done much heeling since her obedience class as I was concentrating on the Foundation Agility. She started out like she did in her Obedience classes, sniffing everywhere. It was outside whereas the Agility has been indoors. They had two courses set up and we each did them a few times, then switched to the other set. Her sit has gotten pretty sloppy so will have to work on that. She would sit but really crooked which she never did before. Our weather has been really lousy, a lot of rain which we do not normally get so haven't been able to do much training. We are meeting up next Tuesday to do some practicing so hope the weather is better by then.


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## elrohwen

I have a bit of a brag from our obedience class last night. We worked on recalls and had all 8 dogs in the ring. We started with 8 on a side, while each person walked across the ring and called dogs individually. Then we had three people leave their dogs at a time, and call them one at a time (the first time all 3 dogs came running, but they got it the second time).

Finally, we paired off and stood across from another dog and handler. We each left our dogs, walking down to stand next to the other dog, then recalled them at the same time so they had to pass. 

Watson did such a good job! He broke the first time when we had three dogs (he came to me when the woman next to me called her dog) but otherwise he was awesome. In the first round of recalls passing another dog he did a major swerve towards her, but I said "leave it" and he corrected course and ran straight towards me. He was one of the only dogs who was able to do it on the first try, other than the two older labs who were perfect (the instructor paired inexperienced dogs with experienced ones, so we had one of the calm labs as our partner). 

It was so funny to watch all of the dogs and their reactions to running straight at another dog. The tiny little terrier mix planned to run straight at the big lab, but zipped around him at the last second when she realized he might just run her over. Haha. 

I'm proud of my wild puppy.


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## Kyllobernese

Did some practicing on heeling in the park on Tuesday, then the Rally class was cancelled on Wednesday. Practiced again the next Tuesday and had our class on Wednesday. Lucy did really well, paid attention to me and we had some tough signs to follow as she really has not had training in going to heel both to the right and left, so have that to work on.

Had a nasty experience though. There is a German Shepherd there that is nasty towards the other dogs so we kept clear of him. This class, as we walked into the area where we practice, we did not have our dogs with us and he leaped at everyone. The owner asked two of us if we would come over and give him a treat. The other person gave him a treat and I was just standing there. Before I even offered him the treat, he was sniffing my leg, then he all of a sudden flew at me with his mouth wide open. I jumped back out of reach and luckily the woman had a good hold on him or he would have done some damage. Of course, she said he never does that, he usually wags his tail at people. From what I had seen earlier, I find it hard to believe her. I was not apprehensive of the dog as I stupidly figured she would not be asking us to give him a treat if he was going to try and savage us. I don't think a Schutzhund dog could have looked more ferocious. She immediately pinned the dog to the ground, Cesar style. Found out later she has been training him that way. Obviously it is not working!!


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## Kyllobernese

Just a question for the Rally people. When you see the sign for front, then send to heel around to the right, then the front sign again and the go to heel to the left, do you use a different word or just use a hand signal and heel? Lucy goes to heel to the left as it is easier with a small dog so I have to teach her to go round me to the right and don't want her to get confused.


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## sassafras

I'm not 100% sure I understand your question - are you asking if people use a different word/signal for a right and left finish to heel position after a front?

I had never learned to use "heel" as the command for the left finish (I use "swish"), and I didn't even learn a right finish until I started doing Rally (I use "around")... so yes, I have different verbal cue and hand signal for each but neither of them are actually "heel."


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## Kyllobernese

That was actually the question I was asking, probably did not explain it too well. I have only done regular Obedience before so Rally is new to me. I am taking Lucy to classes but other than setting up a couple of courses each time, nobody really explains anything. I use the word, Finish when going to heel to the left and will use "around" for the right. Thanks.


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## DJEtzel

I used to use a finish and around when Frag was younger. If he's in a front now I just call heel and nod or point to the side I want him to take to get there. Otherwise he'll choose for himself. We hadn't worked on the finish and around for so long that I just decided to drop the extra words. You can choose any verbal you want as long as they perform it correctly.


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## trainingjunkie

While I do use verbals for my finishes, my dogs almost exclusively cue off of hand signals. I say "Get in" and swish my left hand for a swing finish and I say "Go Round" and swish my right hand for a right side finish. I teach both simultaneously and use both extensively. If I screw up and say one command while signaling the other, my dogs will nearly always follow the hand cue. I often don't use the verbal at all. In obedience, you have to pick between verbal and hand, so I try to limit my double-cues even in training.

If I am working with my high arousal dog, I will often use verbals-only in an attempt to get him thinking rather than reacting. It's really interesting to see how quickly the verbal degrades with excitement/arousal. The physical cues are pretty resilient.


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## Miss Bugs

all the sitting around in our last Rally class...I realized I was silly to drop my likening her to a working line GSD, I used to say that all the time when she was younger, she would have gone nuts in a "normal" home, but she seemed so laid back as she matured that I stopped saying that..I was wrong to drop that likeness. she seems laid back because I never allowed her to get bored. so our final Rally class was less working more review..other dogs? exited but normal...Gem? was throwing behaviours at me left, right and centre, grabbing her leash and shoving it in my hand, offering fronts, finishes, high fives, sits stands, downs, how about bring me someone else's leash? its not like this was her first outing of the day, she had already had a good 10 HOURS of exercise before the class..so I taught her to hold her own certificate for the class pictures lol


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## Miss Bugs

> While I do use verbals for my finishes, my dogs almost exclusively cue off of hand signals. I say "Get in" and swish my left hand for a swing finish and I say "Go Round" and swish my right hand for a right side finish. I teach both simultaneously and use both extensively. If I screw up and say one command while signaling the other, my dogs will nearly always follow the hand cue. I often don't use the verbal at all. In obedience, you have to pick between verbal and hand, so I try to limit my double-cues even in training.


'

Gem also works almost entirely off hand signals, I have to be very careful as her "mistakes" are pretty much always caused by me doing the wrong hand motion, and she clues into the slightest things even when I did not intend it, my hand in front of her face could mean 1 of many things depending on the angle of my hand and weather its my left or right hand , this was NOT on purpose, I had to sit there offering hand signals and watching her response and teach myself what they meant, SHE had a very clear idea..problem was I had no idea what accidental hand cues I had taught her lol I finally figured out that my RIGHT hand dropped palm out, with fingers to the ground in front of me means a proper sit square in front...the same thing with my left hand means stand in front of me lol. left hand fingers down, palm facing in, means stand in a heel, turning the angle up slightly means stay. if I do any of those motions of my right hand I will get high fived... I have been actively trying to teach her verbal cues as I noticed that if I give the verbal cue without the hand signal she does not respond..she is figuring it out though, ME? I pretty much have to tie my hands down to avoid extra cues lol


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## elrohwen

Last night was competition night in our obedience class and we had a lot of fun. Everyone split randomly into two teams, but somehow my team was "Team Wild Child" between Watson and two other young crazy dogs. The first competition was a Rally relay and they actually asked Watson to be the anchor, which surprised me. My team won the first round, lost the second (by a ton), and lost the third by a tail. Actually, the only reason we lost the third round was that a dog on our team bark/growled out of excitement, and Watson gets nervous when other dogs vocalize, so he paused a moment to look around instead of doing the last "down" and it cost us some time. Watson did love everybody cheering for him though. lol Watson also loved the idea of running a rally course as fast as possible.

Then we did team sit/stay and down/stay and got points for every dog who didn't break. Unfortunately Watson laid down during the sit/stay right at the end. Oh well. Definitely proud of my puppy though.


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## Cattledogfanatic

YAY! So excited. Just signed up for an obedience class with Hunter. We're going to do competitive obedience as well as agility. I think he's going to be a phenominal obedience dog. We've been praticing heeling. It's pretty good. We have to work on his front. I feel he sits too far away. I just taught him finish. I did an acutal one minute sit and 3 minute down this morning. Sit was awesome. First time 1 full minute. Down was a little harder but once he got it he did great. I treated him every 30 seconds but he did it the whole 3 minutes. So freaking excited.


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## Kyllobernese

Just finished my Rally classes last night with Lucy. We did all the signs in the Novice Rally and except for me goofing up, Lucy did pretty well. I don't know if I will compete in Rally as I am anxious to get back doing Agility with her. There is an Agility trial at the end of August I would like to put her in. I would just put her in Jumpers which is just jumps and tunnels and possibly Snooker.


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## elrohwen

Had a really tough time at rally this week. We were supposed to be repeating a "fun" obedience class (lots of games, new things every week, etc), but the enrollment was so small that they combined it with the rally class. Our first rally course was 20 signs, many of which I'd never seen before (I've only done easy courses of maybe 10 signs). We were the last dog to go, and Watson was just so over it by the end. He also felt compelled to sniff every single sign - probably a result of nosework in addition to his easily distractable puppy brain. It was tough! I usually don't have trouble motivating him if I can get his focus, but he was throwing out signals that he was overwhelmed.

This tells me we're definitely not ready for rally any time soon! The instructors promised to do more fun things as part of this combined class, so hopefully the next one is better. Watson is also just awful any time we start a new class with new dogs (even though he's seen every one of these dogs before in other classes), so he was kind of wild. Oh, and it was thundering outside. lol Just not our night!


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## kadylady

Just signed Luke and I up for our first Rally Trial! I am very excited, and nervous! This is my first dog related competition (although I have shown horses for years so I shouldn't be). It is Saturday August 10th. One of my local instructors is holding outdoor drop in rally practices and I went 2 weekends ago and Luke did really well. We were working on a course with some more difficult signs as well. Hoping to get some more practice in this week (last week was cancelled due to heat) and there is a fun match the weekend before as well. Any first time trial tips would be appreciated!


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## Miss Bugs

wow this thread fell lol. Gem has her first advanced Rally trial next weekend. went to a fun match today, she did very well, the judge was wow'd by Gems tight rear end work, her biggest issue is keeping her focased on the task, without slowing her down (stresses her out) or hyping her up too much (she goes wack a doodle in the ring) lol. that said I brought Paisley along to the match just for the socialization and holy man, I am totally doing Rally with her lol. I know her old owner wanted to do dog sports with her, but she was always complaining that Pais had no drive. ..I dunno WTF she was talking about, that dog is the definition of drive and focus and she is smart as a whip! she was copying Gem when I practiced advanced excercises, doing fronts, finishes, stand stays etc..


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## Salina

Sookie and I start our first advanced Rally Class on Tuesday *yay* She already has all the signs down other then send over junp. But she is only 1 1/2 so we have time to practice. Middle of November we'll go to our very first Rally Novice Trial. See how that goes.


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## kadylady

Good luck next weekend Miss Bugs!

Luke has 2 more weeks left of his advanced Rally class. He's doing really good, just need to work on cleaning everything up. We have a fun match in November then our second trial the first weekend in December, going to enter both days and try to finish the Novice title. Our first trial this past August we scored 98/100! Best part was that he absolutely loves it. I *might* take Zoey to the fun match too and see how well I do managing 2 dogs...we'll see.


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## sassafras

Man I don't know if his brain is just finally catching up to his body or what, but Squash has been on fire at class lately. He has a trial this weekend and I wimped out and entered Novice B, I was too chicken to enter Advanced, but now I'm kind of kicking myself.

On the day of the trial if his brain leaks out his ears I'll be glad, though.


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## DivaPap

I am thinking of starting obedience competition next year with my Phalene (Papillon) after she is spayed and registered under AKC. From what I understand Rally Novice allows you to talk your dog through the course right?


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## trainingjunkie

sassafras said:


> Man I don't know if his brain is just finally catching up to his body or what, but Squash has been on fire at class lately. He has a trial this weekend and I wimped out and entered Novice B, I was too chicken to enter Advanced, but now I'm kind of kicking myself.
> 
> On the day of the trial if his brain leaks out his ears I'll be glad, though.


Good luck! Can't wait to hear how it goes!


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## trainingjunkie

DivaPap said:


> I am thinking of starting obedience competition next year with my Phalene (Papillon) after she is spayed and registered under AKC. From what I understand Rally Novice allows you to talk your dog through the course right?


In Rally Novice, you can talk all you want so long as you aren't begging and pleading and the performance is on leash. Good luck!

What a super photo!


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## DivaPap

trainingjunkie said:


> In Rally Novice, you can talk all you want so long as you aren't begging and pleading and the performance is on leash. Good luck!
> 
> What a super photo!


Thanks! We will definitely be competing next year and the rally sounds super easy for her already. We already have her CGC certificate.


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## Miss Bugs

Rally trial day 1: miss Gem was the only dog to Q, so first place...her score was not actually that great, she was just the only dog that didn't NQ lol. the run was good though, we had to re-do the stand for exam cuz she ran away from the judge the first time.... I don't know what that was about lol, otherwise most of our points were lost because the silly judge thought it would be hilarious to put the food bowls beside "walk slow" lol naturally she didn't care about the bowls in the actual exercise.... the send to jump was hilarious, she almost didn't take it, she paused and turned around half way after I sent her, so I was all geared up to re-try..and the goofy dog turned back around and took the jump! I was so suprised I stood there shocked for a moment before jumping up and down going "OMG!!! GOOD GIRL!!!" ROTFL


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## Salina

Miss Bugs said:


> Rally trial day 1: miss Gem was the only dog to Q, so first place...her score was not actually that great, she was just the only dog that didn't NQ lol. the run was good though, we had to re-do the stand for exam cuz she ran away from the judge the first time.... I don't know what that was about lol, otherwise most of our points were lost because the silly judge thought it would be hilarious to put the food bowls beside "walk slow" lol naturally she didn't care about the bowls in the actual exercise.... the send to jump was hilarious, she almost didn't take it, she paused and turned around half way after I sent her, so I was all geared up to re-try..and the goofy dog turned back around and took the jump! I was so suprised I stood there shocked for a moment before jumping up and down going "OMG!!! GOOD GIRL!!!" ROTFL
> 
> View attachment 119138


you have to do stand for exam in rally?


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## Miss Bugs

> you have to do stand for exam in rally?


yes.. the exam is just the judge running their hand over the dog, but they have to remain in a stand stay a few feet from you and cannot move their feet. it was the first friggen sign yesterday, everyone was looking at the coarse going "well....guess this will just be a practice run" because they knew their dogs would not pass the stand for exam lol that why Gem was the only dog that Q'd, she had to re-try it, but she was the only dog that did it at all.


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## Salina

Miss Bugs said:


> yes.. the exam is just the judge running their hand over the dog, but they have to remain in a stand stay a few feet from you and cannot move their feet. it was the first friggen sign yesterday, everyone was looking at the coarse going "well....guess this will just be a practice run" because they knew their dogs would not pass the stand for exam lol that why Gem was the only dog that Q'd, she had to re-try it, but she was the only dog that did it at all.


and I thought i go the rally route because my dog would fail that part in regular obedience. she is waaay to scared of people


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## DJEtzel

What venue is there a stand for exam? I have never seen such a sign in akc or ukc.


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## MrsBoats

In AKC or UKC rally, there is no stand for exam. That is in Novice in formal obedience. I'm 99% positive there is no stand for exam in APDT/Cynosport either. I'll check later. 


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## Miss Bugs

I do CARO, stand for exam is in advanced and up, and they like to throw it in everything lol


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## MrsBoats

Oh okay...CARO is Canadian Rally, correct? 

Here in the States, stand for exam is only in formal obedience. I don't know what the criteria is for a rally stand for exam...just obedience. Sorry. 


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## Miss Bugs

lol yes CARO is Canadian Rally, CKC does Rally as well, but its not as popular because CKC does not allow mix breeds in anything. I didn't realize there was no stand for exam in other venues! the CARO sign in "halt, stand, leave for exam" ,so you sit your dog, stand your dog and leave it in a stand stay and walk away to the next sign, the judge walks up, runs their hand over the dog and when they walk away you return to your dog, once the dog is in the stand, they cannot move their feet at all during the exam. one of the shadow judges from yesterday came to me today and said that he believes the judge was being too intimidating, and that why so many dogs failed it, and I agree, she came at the dogs from the side and hovering above them before touching them, she gave the dogs no indication that she was there. 

today we got our Novice Team Q, but NQ'd on our regular advanced run because Gem left the ring...there was a halt, fast forward from sit, and this sign led right to the very edge of the ring, at the spot where it was open, so she overshot the ring and instantly NQ'd lol she did fine otherwise. we also ran advanced team FEO, and Gem did fabulous and when the judge came to give me my leash she said Gem did awesome


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## MrsBoats

Yes, the stand for exam in CARO is exactly how it is performed in Novice Obedience. I'm assuming the handler is standing is about 6' away as it is in Novice obed. A solid stand for exam takes a decent amount of time (I'm talking a couple of months) to solidly train...especially if you have a dog who is concerned by the judge coming in and touching them. I would start out by standing in close and feeding each time the "judge" (who could be friends, family, trainers, etc.) approaches your dog. That way, they eventually equate the approaching judge as a "good thing". Once the dog is less concerned about the judge's motion of coming in, then I would let the "judge" touch the dog...keep the rate of reward high and you should stay in close and in front of your dog. Once the touching part is less of an issue for the dog...gradually increase the distance between you and the dog. If your dog is nervous about the judge...this whole process should be "baby stepped" until the dog understands the "judge" is not a threat/problem/whatever. Use as many different people as you can to play "judge".


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## elrohwen

Since we're talking about stand for exam, I have a question. In Novice, how does the judge generally approach and how much touching is involved? How many points are lost if the dog moves a foot or two?

We work on this in class and started with sit for exam just as a general polite greeting thing (with the handler right next to the dog), and moved to a more formal stand for exam. Watson isn't concerned with the "judge", but he turns into a total wiggle butt. He's good now for our instructor, but each time a different person does it, especially a man, he turns wiggle butt all over again. Often he'll remember himself and go back to standing, but sometimes he just can't help it and tries to jump up and lick the "judge". lol 

If the "judge" approaches without making eye contact it helps a lot, so I'm wondering how judges generally behave in competition.


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## MrsBoats

The judge will approach from the dog's left (your right as your facing them.) They will usually touch once on the head, the withers, the middle back, and the rump. Some judges may put their hand in front of the dog's nose to let them get a whiff before they touch. Here's the stand for exam exercise as stated in the AKC regs:



> Section 8. Stand for Examination, Scoring. The scoring of this exercise will not start until the handler has given the command and/or signal to stay, except for such things as rough treatment by the handler or active resistance by the dog to its handler’s attempts to have it stand. Either of these will be penalized substantially.
> A dog must receive a non-qualifying (NQ) score if it sits or lies down, moves away from the place where it was left either before or during the examination, or growls, snaps or displays resentment.
> Minor or substantial deductions, even to the point of a non-qualifying (NQ) score, will be made for shyness. *Minor or substantial deductions will be made for a dog that moves its feet at any time *or sits or moves away after the examination has been completed.


So, if feet move...points off will be at the judges discretion. You can lose points yourself if you are not in heel position when you leave your dog. 

Lars had a similar problem about being too friendly on the stand for exam. I worked with that by throwing him food from 6' away each time someone started to approach him over the course of about 2 months. That conditioned him to turn and focus on me when someone started to move in on him. Then I would randomly throw food as the "judge" touched him and that continued through his novice career so he would always focus on me during the stand for exam. Worked like a champ for him and he was rock solid when the judges approached and did the exam. It's funny, now that we are doing the utility "moving stand for exam", I see him still turn and focus on me (now 12' away) as the judge comes in and really goes over him like they do in conformation shows but without the bite. That comes from the foundation I laid in the novice stand for exam. And yes, I do still lob food at him off and on during the moving stand for exam to maintain that focus on me. 

Here's a link to the AKC obedience/rally rules and regulations...if you're going to show, know this book inside and out. 

http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RO2999.pdf


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## elrohwen

I like the idea of throwing food. Right now I'm using a focus treat on the ground and it dramatically improved his stand for exam. 

Do you let him get the treat in practice? Or ask him to "leave it" similar to the focus treat (except that it's thrown instead of placed)?


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## MrsBoats

He always got the treat in practice...and he's a good catch so, they didn't end up on the floor often. When I threw food, the exercise was over when he caught it and the "judge" backed off or stopped touching. 

Watson should be focusing on you and not the floor. I personally wouldn't use a target on the floor during the stand for exam...it totally disconnects him from you. I always want that sense of connection between me and my dogs when I'm working with them.


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> Watson should be focusing on you and not the floor. I personally wouldn't use a target on the floor during the stand for exam...it totally disconnects him from you. I always want that sense of connection between me and my dogs when I'm working with them.


Good point. A few weeks ago it was the only way I could get him to stay standing when I stepped away. I have done a horrible job of teaching a solid stand on cue in general which doesn't help.

He actually makes eye contact with me when the treat is on the floor, surprisingly. I think he knows that any "leave it" exercise requires him to make eye contact before he is allowed to have a reward. He will bore holes into me if I drop a treat on the floor and tell him to leave it. I think it focuses his little brain. I do need to fade it out though.


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## MrsBoats

At least he's focusing on you and you do need to fade it. He needs to understand a "stand/stay" long before you introduce the distraction of the judge. I would go back and work on making that rock solid before you start having the exam part of it. Doesn't he have breed handling experience too? There may be some gray area developing between the two...one he can move and the other he can't. I used two different words for conformation stand and the obedience stand with Lars so they were two different exercises with two different criteria. "Stack" was Lars' conformation stand and "Stand" means stand and you do not move no matter what. How do you handle both?? I don't ever try to create grey area in things that are very similar exercises. Does that make sense??

Going back to connection with your dog...it's something I see all of the time with teams. Once that connection is cut, some people have an incredible time getting it back. When I show my dogs in rally or obedience...I am the rudest person because I look at my dog the entire time I am talking to the judge. I don't break eye contact with the boys while I am working with them. I can't tell you how many times I see people turn away from their dogs at the start of an exercise and talk with the judge at length when they should be one with their dog and getting ready to work. They totally set their dog up to fail right at the start of the exercise/run. Drives me crazy. If I expect my dog to give me 100% of their focus and attention in the ring...I should honor that expectation by giving them 100% of my focus to them in the ring. 

When the judge is talking to me, I'm staring at Lars/Ocean smiling at them. When the judge says "Are you ready?" I never say "ready" back to them...I always say "yes" and I'm not telling them "yes". I'm using "yes" to talk directly to my dog and marking that focus on me at the very start of the exercise. There are so many things you as a handler can do to help your dog through obedience but few do because they put the full responsibility on their performance on the dog. It's sad really...


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## elrohwen

I don't think there's much grey area for us in the confo stay vs regular, maybe because spaniels are shown a little differently than many breeds? They are generally not free stacked, so any time the judge is looking at him or examining him I have set him up, and am holding him basically by the face. So once I set him up, I say "stay" and expect him to plant his feet where I've put them. I'm not too familiar with how other breeds are shown except for what I've seen in handling classes, but when I show him, if I tell him to "stay" he's expected to not move his feet. I'm probably more strict with it in that context than in general, actually. The only difference is that I'm physically holding him during the conformation stay, while an obedience stay is hands off. I actually think the confo "stay" helped immensely on being examined (sit or stand) since it wasn't until after a series of handling classes that he was able to stay remotely still when people approached.

We started with the sit for exam, where he is solid on sit/stay. When we moved to the stand, he had a tendency to sit when I got out in front of him. "Oh, mom is standing in front of me making eye contact. Must sit." The treat on the ground seemed to solidify that his feet could not move, and he maintained eye contact, so it was helpful for us. Now I can get a stand/stay when someone isn't approaching (without a treat), but I've still been using it when we do the stand for exam (which really isn't that often). It's a lure basically, so it needs to go of course, but I did successfully fade it out in other contexts.


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## MrsBoats

That's a good thing that conformation is understood by Watson to be a different thing than an obedience SFE. 

Is he ever allowed to get the food on the floor when he's told leave it?? 

So you can see how the SFE is performed...I dug out an older video of Lars and I doing a novice obedience run. The lady who gave it is pretty close to how a judge will run a ring...all business and efficiently. Stand for Exam starts at 1:30. See how he doesn't even acknowledge her coming in...throwing food worked wonders. 






I did say "ready" in this video...because it was before I adopted the regular use of "yes"


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> Is he ever allowed to get the food on the floor when he's told leave it??


Sometimes. I'm not really sure which is best so most of the time I pick it up and hand it to him, or give him a treat from my hand and pocket the one on the floor. Occasionally I do let him get it himself since I think this is ultimately more rewarding for him, but only recently since it has become a solid behavior. What's your philosophy on this? 


I think the connection thing is the hardest part. Some days I wish I had a border collie who would just stare at me constantly. He remains connected as long as he's having fun, but as soon as he thinks I'm boring, or other dogs are more interesting (they almost always are if they're close enough), he breaks. I've been doing a lot of "give me a break" style games where I release him to sniff, then wait for him to re-focus on me and reward for that decision and do some work, and it seems to be helping and after a few minutes he's much more focused on me for longer periods of time. It's really hard though and I don't always know what to do about it when he drops his focus on me. I try very hard to be 100% focused on him when I'm asking him to focus on me, and releasing him to sniff or do whatever when I can't focus on him. He "knows" the novice rally signs, but getting him to stay focused through an entire course is impossible at this point unless there are zero distractions. Heck, keeping focus for more than a couple signs is really really hard if there are other dogs around.

ETA: Just watched the video - thanks for posting! That shows the SFE very well.


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## MrsBoats

No problem...figured that would show what a SFE looks like well. 

My philosophy is that if there is food on the floor...I pick it up and give it to them. Sometimes, I won't give it to them until much later. If food falls out of my hand by accident, I tell them to wait or leave it. I usually don't want encourage my dogs to pick up food on the floor in the obedience ring. (There is only one instance where I will toss food and let them get it and that's with a drop on recall game I play for Open.) 

I use food on the floor for proofing...I will have cookies, treats, or toys on the floor and the boys have to heel or do different exercises around it. They have to absolutely ignore the crap on the floor while working. I've seen dogs (and especially short ones) become more interested in the floor than the handler while they are working. In shows, you can have tape pieces, a leaf, dog hair tufts, shafts of sunlight all of which can catch your dog's attention because it "might" be food. There were weird marks from old tape on the rally ring floor at last weekend's show...people were sort of freaking out about that. For me, it was absolutely a non-issue because Lars has been taught nothing on that floor other than a dumbbell, glove, or scent article should be of interest to him.


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## elrohwen

Watson is likely to sniff totally invisible things on the floor (generally where other dogs have sat - such a teenage boy), but is good about leaving actual food or items. I think conformation handling helped for this, because people tend to drop bait all over the place. I was trying to practice this specifically at home and heel over some treats on the ground, but he stopped dead and wouldn't go near them. I guess he thinks "leave it" in the kitchen means back away from the food and don't touch it ever. He would be right next to me and then stop and stare at me while I kept going. He's a funny dog.


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## Salina

I went to my very first Rally Trial today. Got first place with a perfect score of 100  I am super proud. I have to admit, that I already Train in the advanced/excellence class, but have never been to a Trial. so the novice A wasn't really a big challenge. It was an outside Trial and it rained over night, so the grass was extra good smelling.


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## Finkie_Mom

Just had our first Rally Advanced trial yesterday. It was Kimma's first time in a Rally trial in 2 years since getting her RN in 3 tries, and first time even doing Rally in a year since we stopped classes and focused more on agility. She ended up with a Q and a first place! I was a bit shocked since it had been so long, but she did so well. Even maintained a decent heel position throughout when possible. I'm so proud of her! Looks like we might do some more trialing in the future and hopefully be able to transition over to formal obedience


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## trainingjunkie

Congratulations to both of you! (Salina and Finkie M!) Either of you have any videos?


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## kadylady

Congrats Salina and Finkie_Mom!


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## petpeeve

MrsBoats said:


> (There is only one instance where I will toss food and let them get it and that's with a drop on recall game I play for Open.)


 I frequently toss food treats during training and allow the dog to eat them. The key for me is to have a unique release cue such as "git it!". I find it helpful for teaching things such as 'two-cookie heeling'. ie: a low-value treat is randomly tossed 10 or 20' away while I continue to walk, and the dog is simultaneously given the cue to get it. Immediately upon inhaling the treat he's given the heel cue, then rewarded with a high-value treat for coming back into proper position without me ever stopping hesitating or even looking his way.

In actual competition, issuing a second command could very well be a Q saver. So this is one way that I practice for it.

eta: while I'm here ... the judge's position at the start of the SFE *should* be somewhere near to where you will stand after you've turned to face your dog, but slightly off to your right. S/he will then walk in, virtually straight towards the dog, and briefly touch three times - 1. head, 2. withers, and 3. croup - using an open palm. They really shouldn't be approaching from the side with any appreciable amount.


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## Finkie_Mom

trainingjunkie said:


> Congratulations to both of you! (Salina and Finkie M!) Either of you have any videos?


Nope, though I wish I did! I didn't expect to do anything (especially considering how bad Kimma's anxiety has been lately about life), so I didn't even ask anyone! Next time we trial I will attempt to rope someone in to come with a video 



kadylady said:


> Congrats Salina and Finkie_Mom!


Thank you


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## Salina

thank you. nope, no pictures or video. i was pretty sure she was going to do bad...never expected a perfect score. she usually doesn't do too well in a new environment. she totally surprised me.


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## petpeeve

Yes, congrats all around !
sorry, you guys. Didn't mean to seem rude. Just an oversight on my part 

Salina - first trial ? first place ? perfect score ? AND outside after it rained too ? THAT'S quite an accomplishment. Nice going !
Finkie_Mom - sometimes a layoff can be a good thing. Sounds like I'd be very proud of that performance too if it were me ! Best of luck if / when you decide to trial in OB.


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## Finkie_Mom

petpeeve said:


> Finkie_Mom - sometimes a layoff can be a good thing. Sounds like I'd be very proud of that performance too if it were me ! Best of luck if / when you decide to trial in OB.


Oh yeah, I'm definitely proud of my little crazy. I'm actually hoping our current break from agility will help her in that venue as well. That, and trying some new stuff to manage her anxiety as it's back up again (behavior mod plus trying DAP spray on a bandana for her to wear). I am noticing some nice improvements in her behavior so far, so maybe it's all working 

I do hope to try formal OB. I will most likely get her in to classes for that, however, as I would like an outside perspective as we train more seriously. She already has a wicked retrieve and I've been starting some scent work with her so I'm hoping that articles would be no issue. Actually, at an obedience show and go I went to about a year ago, her heeling was off as she was totally distracted so I put her on leash. The judge asked if I even wanted to try her off leash for the recall and I figured that I might as well give it a shot. Well she like FLEW at me when I called, and the judge just started laughing and said, "Well, she likes that doesn't she!" So she has some good stuff going on there. She also does fine with the long sits/downs (though we haven't tried out of sight in many new environments). It's the SFE that I'm worried about. Not because of her not holding a stand/stay, but because of her former people fear which I've managed to turn in to a, "OH IT'S A PERSON I HOPE THEY WILL FEED ME." She doesn't normally accost people but she will sniff at you for food and may lick you LOL.


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## Salina

petpeeve said:


> Yes, congrats all around !
> sorry, you guys. Didn't mean to seem rude. Just an oversight on my part
> 
> Salina - first trial ? first place ? perfect score ? AND outside after it rained too ? THAT'S quite an accomplishment. Nice going !
> Finkie_Mom - sometimes a layoff can be a good thing. Sounds like I'd be very proud of that performance too if it were me ! Best of luck if / when you decide to trial in OB.


thank you. I am very proud of my dog


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## kadylady

I took both Luke and Zoey to drop-in Rally tonight. It was Zoey's first time doing any full courses anywhere, I have just been teaching her and working on stuff at home on the side. She did really fantastic for her first time, I was quite proud of her. First run through she was a little confused, I think she was looking for the agility equipment lol second run through she got the hang of it and I picked up the pace a bit and she seemed less distracted. Luke did great as usual. He was very enthusiastic but was able to work well through it. Last week he was a little too happy and had a hard time focusing, so I was very pleased with both his runs tonight. Last week he totally "forgot" what the front cue meant, this week his fronts were so sharp, it was like night/day difference. Silly boy, he's always just so happy to get out there and work, so that alone makes it all worth it. We have a trial coming up next weekend, Saturday and Sunday, hope to get one more practice in early next week.


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## sassafras

Back to Rally tonight after about 3 weeks off. Although he was awesome in every other way, apparently Squash decided during his time off that fronts now mean that he sits sideways in front of me facing to my right. Whut. :/


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## trainingjunkie

sassafras said:


> Back to Rally tonight after about 3 weeks off. Although he was awesome in every other way, apparently Squash decided during his time off that fronts now mean that he sits sideways in front of me facing to my right. Whut. :/


It's always something! However, if you reward him for fronts from a treat from your mouth, he will probably remember where "front" is very quickly!


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## sassafras

trainingjunkie said:


> It's always something! However, if you reward him for fronts from a treat from your mouth, he will probably remember where "front" is very quickly!


Oooooo that's a good idea.


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## kadylady

trainingjunkie said:


> It's always something! However, if you reward him for fronts from a treat from your mouth, he will probably remember where "front" is very quickly!


That is a great idea! Luke was doing the exact same thing Sassafras described last week, so I started jackpoting him for fronts and his this week they were spot on. I am going to try this...he is not a gentle treat taker though so I may end up with some love nibbles lol


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## trainingjunkie

Clarification: When my dogs front and stare me in the eyes, I drop food from my mouth down to them. Start with a cheese puffs of string cheese cut length-wise so it's easy for them the catch. Then, they can move on to hot dogs etc. My dogs don't get near my face! They just front nice and close and stare at me until I drop food down or cue a finish. If I cue a finish, I reward from hand.


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## kadylady

trainingjunkie said:


> Clarification: When my dogs front and stare me in the eyes, I drop food from my mouth down to them. Start with a cheese puffs of string cheese cut length-wise so it's easy for them the catch. Then, they can move on to hot dogs etc. My dogs don't get near my face! They just front nice and close and stare at me until I drop food down or cue a finish. If I cue a finish, I reward from hand.


Ah yes that makes much more sense! Lol


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## petpeeve

sassafras said:


> Back to Rally tonight after about 3 weeks off. Although he was awesome in every other way, apparently Squash decided during his time off that fronts now mean that he sits sideways in front of me facing to my right. Whut. :/


First thing to look at is whether there is an environmental issue present. If there is a neighbouring dog for example, somehow putting pressure on your dog making him uncomfortable. Or perhaps even just something odd or out of place in the training hall that night, sometimes that can 'force' a dog out of normal position where they otherwise wouldn't. 

Teaching your dog nice square fronts can be aided by the use of temporary barriers such as short lengths of pvc pipe, or working alongside a wall then side-stepping left into the wall after calling front to take away his option of cocking himself in the unwanted direction. In more advanced training you could also brush up on rear end awareness and pivots using a platform etc, and/or teach rear paws to target.

You can try spitting food. But if your dog's not in the proper position to begin with, the question would seem to be how to get him there in the first place. IMO it's not so much the position of his head that matters, particularly during a rally call front, it's more about where his hind end is, really. If the rear is in the correct spot then everything else should fall naturally into place, for potential food spitting too if desired. So first off, practice and perfect your pivots / REA is my advice.


All that aside .. are you stepping back, then luring into a front with both hands, then FEEDING with both hands ? If you are actually feeding with only your right hand, as a rule or out of subconscious habit, that could be part of the problem as well.


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## Miss Bugs

> eta: while I'm here ... the judge's position at the start of the SFE *should* be somewhere near to where you will stand after you've turned to face your dog, but slightly off to your right. S/he will then walk in, virtually straight towards the dog, and briefly touch three times - 1. head, 2. withers, and 3. croup - using an open palm. They really shouldn't be approaching from the side with any appreciable amount.


lol ya, see THAT Gem would have no issue with lol. this Judge wasn't really paying attention to where she was standing as she walked around the ring, then after we left the dog she came from an angle BEHIND the dog to the side, reached over and did the 3 touches....er..TRIED to do the 3 touches, most of the dogs in the class freaked out when she came at them. I was always taught in classes that the judge would come at an angle near the front so the dog can see them, though I try to prepare my dogs for anything that could happen, which has helped I guess since she was the only dog that passed it, though it was on a retry and she was clearly sketched out lol


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## sassafras

Oh god Squash is so terrible at catching treats I drop from my mouth, it's adorable. BUT it does seem to be helping him come in straighter. 

In retrospect, I think this is fallout from working on his retrieve. He would hold it and he would go get it, but it took some time, trial, and error to teach him that in between those two things he could actually walk and carry the dumbbell at the same time. What I did was to try asking to come in for a targeted nose touch to my palm with the dumbbell in his mouth, which ultimately worked. But at first when he returned I wasn't really asking for a front, I was just trying to get him to come anywhere near me with it and I think that probably slopped up fronts in general for him because he's a real "take a mile" kinda guy. So, live and learn. I'm not worried about it, it was just weirdly funny to me that he chose the context he did to be sideways front dog for the night.


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## lil_fuzzy

For straight fronts, also make sure you don't just reward from one hand. If you always reward with your right hand, the dog will gravitate towards your right, and can end up facing your right arm. Always mix it up so the dog doesn't know which side the treat will come from.


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## sassafras

Yea I think that's how using the touch teaching the retrieve messed it up, because I mostly used my right palm for the targeted touch. His fronts were fine before that.


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## MrsBoats

lil_fuzzy said:


> For straight fronts, also make sure you don't just reward from one hand. If you always reward with your right hand, the dog will gravitate towards your right, and can end up facing your right arm. Always mix it up so the dog doesn't know which side the treat will come from.


This is a good point...we have patterns in our training we don't even know we're doing it most of the time. 

Also, make sure you practice fronts separately from your finishes. I tend to send my dogs to the right in finishes over sending them left. So if you send to the right enough, you may get a dog that gravitates to the right in anticipation to the finish (or a dog who "auto-finishes" in obedience.)


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## kadylady

Luke and I scored 93/100 at the Rally trial today, 4th place out if 10. I was really happy with everything overall. It was at a brand new place, there were 4 rings running at once and a lot more people than our first trial. He got bit distracted throughout our run and there were places I could have set him up better, but overall pretty good. We are back at it tomorrow, hoping for our novice title! 

http://youtu.be/Ab1DU9xQAPQ


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## kadylady

We got our Rally Novice title!!! Sunday we scored 96/100 (2nd place) and that was our 3rd leg to finish novice! Sunday I thought the actual course was easier, but the distractions were higher as there were dogs working in the ring next to ours (it was empty by the time we went Saturday) and most of the course was on that side of the ring. You can see Luke was pretty distracted the first time we go down that side, but the second time gives me really great attention. I am so happy with how he did both days. This trial was definitely tougher than our first as far as distractions go. He absolutely loves going to the trials. He is so happy the whole time, everyone always comments on how happy he is! 






Pic with our title ribbon on Sunday! He was carrying it around and showing it to everyone lol


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## elrohwen

Whoohoo! Congrats to you and Luke!


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## trainingjunkie

That's great! Good for you!


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## Shep

Congratulations to you and your wonderful dog.


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## Salina

going to our second rally trial in three weeks, actually doing one saturday and one sunday hopefully we can get our rally novice title. She did awesome at our first trial but I am not sure she will do good again. She still a little shy. But I really want to move on to advanced as novice isn't really our level of training anymore. But still fun


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## kadylady

Belated thanks!

Title certificate came in the mail yesterday! His very first one!


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## Blueduck1105

We are looking into our first obedience and or agility class. Both my gf and I are new to the concept. Both our dogs growing up were basic trained and then trained by family. We have never gone into the agility or more intense obedience classes. We found a place that isn't far that offers both that we would like to check out.

What are questions we need to ask or what do we need to see to find out if it is a good place and if our guy is ready for them? Thanks in advance! Congrats on the certificate!


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## elrohwen

Blueduck1105 said:


> We are looking into our first obedience and or agility class. Both my gf and I are new to the concept. Both our dogs growing up were basic trained and then trained by family. We have never gone into the agility or more intense obedience classes. We found a place that isn't far that offers both that we would like to check out.
> 
> What are questions we need to ask or what do we need to see to find out if it is a good place and if our guy is ready for them? Thanks in advance! Congrats on the certificate!


I would ask what type of training they do. If they say it's positive and motivational, you're probably good to go. If they say that they put a prong on every single dog to come into the facility, then I would stay away. Generally agility is trained with all (or almost all) positive methods, but obedience is still really varied. You can always ask to attend a class without your dog to see how things are run.

I would ask them what basic skills your dog needs. Most facilities will offer beginner and basic classes in agility or obedience, so your dog isn't expected to have any skills to start with and they will get you ready for more advanced stuff.

For obedience, consider what you're interested in. Is it just general pet obedience to have a well behaved companion? Or do you intend to compete? The behaviors you train aren't that different, but the attention to detail can be completely different, so it's important to find a class that focuses on what you are interested in. If you want to do pet obedience, you might get frustrated that the instructor keeps pointing out your inconsistent footwork on about turns (you don't need great footwork to train a companion), but if you want to do competition, you'll love an instructor with that much attention to detail. Conversely, a trainer who focuses on well trained pets might not have the knowledge to really prepare you for the obedience ring, but could be awesome if you're not interested in competition.

Keep in mind that rally is another option. It's a great way to get into obedience and is the place many people start (for themselves, and for their novice dogs). 

Good luck!


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## Salina

kadylady said:


> Belated thanks!
> 
> Title certificate came in the mail yesterday! His very first one!


how cool. i didn't even know u will get a certificate


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## Blueduck1105

Thanks for the device! I think we are going to call today and ask to go to the facility to talk to someone. I don't think we would compete but if he enjoys it enough and does well at something I guess you never know!


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## BlackHaus

Odin finished his RN today with a score of 96/100 and 3rd overall! We achieved our goals of earning the title without a single NQ and of beating our score each leg. Super proud of my boy!















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## Salina

BlackHaus said:


> Odin finished his RN today with a score of 96/100 and 3rd overall! We achieved our goals of earning the title without a single NQ and of beating our score each leg. Super proud of my boy!
> View attachment 130722
> View attachment 130730
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


congratulations!


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## Finkie_Mom

kadylady said:


> Belated thanks!
> 
> Title certificate came in the mail yesterday! His very first one!


Belated congrats!!! 



BlackHaus said:


> Odin finished his RN today with a score of 96/100 and 3rd overall! We achieved our goals of earning the title without a single NQ and of beating our score each leg. Super proud of my boy!
> View attachment 130722
> View attachment 130730
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Nice job! 

For anyone who is interested, I put together a video of me and Kimma doing all of the RN signs. Eventually I will do all of the RA/RE ones, too. But I think I need more room for those - I just did these in the living room last night LOL:


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## Shep

Kimma has beautiful attention!


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## Finkie_Mom

Shep said:


> Kimma has beautiful attention!


Thank you so much! She's a cool little dog. Now that she's a bit older and we've gotten her reactivity under control, I'm hoping to do more obedience/rally fun matches and trialing with her.


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## Blueduck1105

Is there anyone in Illinois who can recommend places for agility? I am having a hard time finding places to go. How do you know what is reputable?

We are in Tinley Park. Any help would be great PM if you have specifics! 

Thanks


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## DJEtzel

Blueduck1105 said:


> Is there anyone in Illinois who can recommend places for agility? I am having a hard time finding places to go. How do you know what is reputable?
> 
> We are in Tinley Park. Any help would be great PM if you have specifics!
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


My co worker is a CPE judge and is originally from Chicago. I can ask her for some recommendations!


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## Kyllobernese

We had our first Agility drop in class last weekend since November. It was finally warm enough, only -10C. We were planning on this Sunday again but the Sled Dog Races are on so our Agility Club decided to put up a booth to see if we could get more members. Almost everybody in the area goes to watch the Races which are held once a year. Teams come from all over, even as far as Alaska.


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## elrohwen

I signed us up for a working spot in Denise Fenzi's Precision Heeling online class. So excited! I was on the fence about taking a working spot and the amount of trouble it would be to video tape sessions a few times a week, but this class is all small spaces exercises, so it should be easy enough. Plus Denise is the instructor and I love her heeling, so I think this one will be worth paying the extra for a working spot. 

I've been stuck on our heeling for a while because I can teach the basics, but I'm not sure how to polish it and get it solidly on cue. I'm hoping that by the end of this class and the next (heeling games) we might be ready to focus on Rally and get ready for competition, since the major thing holding us back is his heeling and ability to focus on it for long periods of time.


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## trainingjunkie

Have you taken any of her other classes?


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Have you taken any of her other classes?


Nope, this is my first venture into the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. 

My local options are limited for specific course work. I can take general obedience courses and get help with things, but if I really want to focus on heeling, for example, I'm out of luck. I hope that online courses can fill that gap.


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## trainingjunkie

I have been going back and forth at taking your class at Bronze level. I just really, really, really hate props, so I have held back. I have taken 3 courses and have learned important things in all of them. At this point in my training journey, I have found that I learn better on-line than in classes. Good luck! I will most likely be watching you!


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I have been going back and forth at taking your class at Bronze level. I just really, really, really hate props, so I have held back. I have taken 3 courses and have learned important things in all of them. At this point in my training journey, I have found that I learn better on-line than in classes. Good luck! I will most likely be watching you!


Oh boy, lots of pressure! Haha

When I signed up, I didn't think about how many bronze level people would be out there watching the videos of only 11 working people. That should be motivation for me to actually train a lot and post the max number of videos per week.

I have no opinions on heeling yet, being a newbie, though I know people have different opinions on props. Watson will target anything with his front feet, and has some ability to pivot around it (when I lure), which I just trained for rear end awareness, not heeling. I'm more excited for the Heeling Games class next term, but we need to get through this one first. I'll probably sign up for that one at bronze level. Our current heeling level could be described as left side walking with attention - he knows I want him there, and he's fairly well in position, and he enjoys it, but that's it. 

I also really want to do the focus class next term too. Probably bronze as well because I don't know how I would get videos of focus work - I know I won't be organized enough to have someone shoot video out at a pet store, or in a field with wildlife, or at agility class, where focus is an issue. Setting up a stationary video camera in my bedroom for heeling work is about my level of commitment. Haha


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## trainingjunkie

You'll do great! Looking forward to watching!


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## Salina

wohooo...Sookie got her Rally Novice title today. She did great both yesterday and today. we got first place both days...yesterday a 100 points, today 99 points. 
I am super excited!


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## BlackHaus

Congrats!


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## Blueduck1105

That's awesome congrats!


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## SDRRanger

Ranger has one class left from his level II obedience course. Once this is done I'm hoping to start in the beginner agility class, but hoping to find the money to start a rally class as well. Now that we've had some serious practice on LLW and heeling, I'm beginning to see how much fun rally might be.


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## kadylady

Salina said:


> wohooo...Sookie got her Rally Novice title today. She did great both yesterday and today. we got first place both days...yesterday a 100 points, today 99 points.
> I am super excited!


Congrats!!!!


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## trainingjunkie

Huge congratulations!!!! Way to go!


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## Miss Bugs

Gem got her Advanced title today! first place both runs  not saying they were great runs lol, the first one she was just the only Q, and o was honestly shocked that she Qd at all, she was acting like such a dork in the ring..I sent her to the jump and she jumped the sign in the opposite direction but she came back and took the jump right away so it was just an out of position, then damn if she would front on the 1-2-3 steps backwards, she kept swinging back to a heel, then she attached herself to the food bowl on the offset figure 8, and she kept sitting behind me.. lol I was sure we lost too many points, but she got 170 on the nose! second run was waaaayyyy better, she still kept swinging to heel on the fronts but that was it!


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## Kyllobernese

I have joined up with an Obedience group that I train with two or three times a week. The dogs are all levels, there is no instructor and everyone trains more or less on their own. We do group downs and sits stays. We also take turns doing a stand stay with our dog, then one at a time each of the people leave their dog in a sit stay, and go over the standing dog. Really good training for them to do a stand stay and have five people go over them. We also do Figure 8's with the people that are posts having their dogs sit beside them. We have my Doberman, two German Shepherds, an Australian Shepherd, a Boxer and a Rotty. The last two are owned by the same person so she brings one or the other. The Boxer and Kris are the only ones who have not competed in Obedience. The Golden is practicing for his Utility degree. There is a fun trial on the 22nd and I will put Kris in the Obedience. They are also having an Agility fun trial at the same time but have not started Kris yet as the Classes in Agility were cancelled because of our bad weather. (-37 last night).


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## Miss Bugs

ok I am over the moon with Gem's performance today. I bumped her up to Excellent, called it a practice throw away run, she's barely seen half the equipment,all her advanced Q's were barely scraped by and excellent judges harder. now she did NOT Q in her excellent run, but ONLY because she swung her butt out too far in the beginning of her back up 3 steps, and the judge said she felt bad, because she saw her straighten up and back up perfectly, but only AFTER she had swung out nearly 90* which was unfortunately an auto fail. all the things I was worried about? she NAILED, and if not for that butt swing she would have had a 194. she had not seen weaves in so long that I was prepared to be guiding her through them..ya as soon as she saw the weaves she raced for them dove through them perfectly like a damn pro..the points she lost were for out of positions because she kept trying to go back to the weaves.... she nailed the broad jump...she's seen a broad jump twice in her entire life. 

she did however win judges choice because her left turns and pivots are awesome lol


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## Blueduck1105

Holt is in a very intro to course and is STILL having confidence issues with the tunnel! He just won't go through it! He has only been exposed to a tunnel, small jumps, ladder, weave poles, and a box for "paws up"

He can do the others the ladder was the only other one that took him a little to warm up to but 4 weeks in he still won't commit to the tunnel. Any advice!?


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## elrohwen

Blueduck1105 said:


> Holt is in a very intro to course and is STILL having confidence issues with the tunnel! He just won't go through it! He has only been exposed to a tunnel, small jumps, ladder, weave poles, and a box for "paws up"
> 
> He can do the others the ladder was the only other one that took him a little to warm up to but 4 weeks in he still won't commit to the tunnel. Any advice!?


You might get some more advice over in the agility thread.

Does he know how to drive to a target, like a plastic lid, on the ground? I would make sure the tunnel is straight and pushed together, so it's just a small thing he has to run through and he can see out the other side. Then I would put the target on the other side with a treat on it, and get him to focus on driving towards the target to get his mind off of the tunnel. Going through a full tunnel that turns can be intimidating.


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## MrsBoats

We did some obedience practice last night. With the snow too icy to run on this week and sitting in a crate for four hours while waiting your turn and watching your little brat bro work in rally with mom...Lars' flux capacitor almost hit 1.21 gigawatts while doing Utility Obedience. I've got everything in place...just a few normal bugs we have to work on and that will get worked out with more Utility mileage on both of us. 

He is my first official utility dog...and I'm self taught in it for the most part. So...I'm just thrilled we've gotten to this point. I'm thinking just going for it and entering him in the spring in Util A. I just have to learn more about handler errors and ring procedure in the next couple of months. I will die if I NQ with a handler error on a run that Lars did great on. LOL 






As wild as he can be...I absolutely adore my crazy man.


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## trainingjunkie

Very, very nice! You are so close to ready!

Going and watching Utility A classes very closely is so, so helpful. You can see common dog errors and common handler errors. Watching the flow closely allows you to mentally rehearse your runs until you are ready to feel at ease in the ring.

I enjoyed my UD run more than I ever expected. We got our UD in 3 weekends. I was almost sad when we titled because it was over so quickly.

Our last leg was super interesting. My dog would have NQed in 2 places if I hadn't had a clear understanding of the rules. On signals, my dog went to a "frog" down instead of a fold-back. When I gave the sit signal, he just pulled his hips up and thought he had complied. Because my arm was still in motion, I was able to reach my arm up to the sky and pull the rest of him up without drawing an NQ for a 2nd cue.

Then, on directed jumping, I only trained and performed with arm motion. However, you are allowed to pair a verbal with the raised arm. My dog missed my signal. I saw him miss my signal early enough to add a verbal and not get dinged for a 2nd cue. That verbal got him over the jump.

Knowing how the game is played is so, SO helpful! 

I can't wait to follow your journey. The UD mission was the most fun thing I have ever done with my dog.

Remember, if you NQ, all you have to do is pull out your wallet and write another check! They will let you keep trying until you're dead! Don't get too stressed about anything!


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## MrsBoats

Thanks!!! I have been analyzing my video off and on today and one thing I see that I did was I spun around on sending him to the pile way too fast for him. That was like pouring gasoline on a fire...and it fired him up and he barked. I think he is half watching the judge put of the corner of his eye on signals...he has done that where he is moving on the judge's hand signal for the recall. We will have to work on proofing that. With the oops in Directed Jumping...I very well could have shifted my eyes at the high jump and not realized I did it...thus sending him to that. He catches stuff like that. I think the more he shows in Utility...the less the barking will happen in directed jumping.

I've spent other parts of today watching UA classes on YouTube. There are some shows coming up in the next couple of weeks I'm planning on going and watching with my notebook. 

My goal with Lars is a UDX. My pipe dream is the OTCH and I'll figure out if that is more than a pipe dream during that UDX hunt.  

And that's exactly how I look at the journey...the NQ's are just experience...and money. I just have to keep writing checks!! LOL


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## trainingjunkie

I am contemplating a UDX run myself. I am going to start with Utility combined with Pre-Open. I will do full heights in pre-O but won't have to do the out of sight stays. If I can get consistent with double qualifying, I will go to Open B. The Out of Sights just kill me with anxiety. If a UDX looks attainable, I will face my fears. If not, no harm in playing.


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## petpeeve

You say you've been analyzing your video, and I know you've been open to input / suggestions in the past. If you don't mind I'll take the liberty once again. Hope that's ok. Please forgive me if I'm a little off-base in my observations, it's hard to see the details on my crappy monitor. I tried my best .

There seems to be some forging, and a bit of a wrap-around while heeling which will make left turns awkward. Both will cost you points off and will detract from the polished appearance. I'd look at 1. left foot starts rather than right foot, 2. left hand signal rather than right hand, as being two areas for possibly improving position. That, and practice feeding back more in the midst of heeling. 
While the judge is giving the signals, constantly look at your dog and watch the judge in your periphery. Shouldn't be too difficult because they're actually right there. Looking back and forth even slightly as many handlers are inclined to do, may cause anticipation issues. You're right though, in saying 'he'll catch stuff like that'. Like a neon billboard lol, so I tend to focus solely on the dog.

For the scent discrimination. Rather than a flying send, a sit-send may discourage the barking by adding an extra element of control. I say this because I noticed in the directed retrieve he didn't bark at all. Could be all he needs, just to take a bit of the edge off the excitement level. However, this does carry with it the potential of points off for a non-sit, or maybe worse if he leaves before the cue on the second article. It's something you'll have to weigh up personally, benefit vs risk. 
Always keep your dog in heel position. After finishing the first article, don't hand it to the judge. Unless I'm mistaken she don't want it lol. Retain the article, keep your dog in heel don't release, pivot 180, and hook the used article onto the top of the back rest before picking up the second article from the seat rest. Whenever the article is 'up there' it's done - another reason why I don't favour the flying send. And watch those extra commands while the judge is placing the article, the exercise has already started.
No dumbbell diving. Practice a calm and patient hold. Proof it by momentarily holding the bells then letting go, the dog should remain holding. Tap the bells gently. Scratch his ears, scratch his chin, whatever. "Let go" means the dog finally releases, then retracts his mouth backwards from the article while you hold it stationary.

LOVE the spins between exercises, provided cues are subtle. Keeps the dog connected and relieves a bit of built-up pressure. I think the majority of judges will let you get away with it, although the sticky ones may consider it training in the ring. I suppose this is where pre-scouting and 'know your judge' come into play.

Directed jumping. Much better timing now of "Lars, sit" compared to before. Perfect I'd say. Beautiful. As for the motions or mechanics, I always look to far post of the designated jump, very briefly, eyes only - no head turn, then the signal starts essentially immediately. I do a palm flip, kinda like a low five, to create an instant visual aid. Then add the rest of the signal, for a totally fluid motion. Relatively slow and continual is the name of the game, don't be too hasty. Should help to prevent any misunderstanding. Also don't turn quite as perpendicular, it's not necessary. Once the dog is in the air and has made the commitment, just turn slightly to face the middle of the jump itself or perhaps the far post, enough to create a smooth trajectory to a straight front and that's all. 


That's a great idea about going to watch the Ut A teams to see what they do wrong, but I'd also watch the Ut B teams to see what they do right. In either case try to find a vantage point that affords you a good view of the handler's front side so you can study the subtle nuances more from the dog's perspective.

Once again I hope my comments aren't seen as being overly or unduly critical, just trying to pass along some tips to make your journey less bumpy. Anyways, enjoy the ride  and good luck.


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## Shep

You are a smart trainer with a happy, willing dog. His heeling is lovely, and his attitude is wonderful. You will go far!


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## MrsBoats

Thanks Shep....Lars is very, very much like your BC who earned the OTCH. I read your comments about your dog...and think - that's is Lars all day long. 

Petpeeve, Thank you for the input. Some of it I will keep in mind and some of it may not work well with Lars because of his personality. He tends to forge in practice at run thrus...home not so much and trials not so much. Points off for heeling...he usually averages about 2 - 3 points. I usually get hit for him bumping me and an occasional forge. It's something he has done this entire career and he loves to push while heeling when it's not "the real deal." I have tried a lot of stuff at the suggestions of a lot of people to get the forging in run thrus under control....and I now think it would take some serious complusion to get him to stop forging in that run thru environment. Since it's not an issue at a trial...and it's not an issue at home, I call this choosing battles. And keep in mind, Lars hasn't had any exercise in over a week outside of leash walking on icy roads because the snow is cutting up his legs in the backyard. He was high in that video. 

In regards to the direct send...I talked with a bunch of friends who do know Lars and have done Utility agreed that a direct send would be better for him. Lars and I sometimes "fight" for control in the ring. The lead up to getting work the pile will be hard for him and I think he may find it frustrating. He's a guy that doesn't like starting and stopping and he gets frustrated with it. A sit send will do nothing but piss him off and that will create a power struggle between us. I'm debating about not really making it a point to make him look at the articles while they are setting them up because that just makes him simmer. That with sit send...oh god, I might as well throw a hand grenade into that article pile. One doesn't simply make Lars do anything in a calm manner...it's all about energy management with him. I do a lot to minimize energy leakage with him. There are things I do with him that most handlers do not understand because of who Lars is...but they seem to work. Lars does have a good understanding of how to hold a dumbbell...historically he has lost no points to .5 point on his retrieves on the flat and retrieves over the high jump and that's because a front or a finish is a hair off. I think he was just amped and decided that he was going to fire the article at me to get his reward. 

I do handle Lars so differently in a run thru than a trial. At a trial I need to be the ice queen to manage that energy leakage...and I can't even smile at him while he's working. I have lost Misc. points for him flying in the air and smashing me in the face or almost knocking me over at the end of a run or the end of an exercise because he's under so much pressure to contain that energy. I was spinning him to keep him moving because if he's moving...he won't get frustrated with lack of action. You will never see me spin him in a show ring...because that will be like dumping gasoline on a fire...and he'll start to spiral out of control in over drive. Not many people (maybe Shep and Trainingjunkie do because they have high drive obedience dogs) understand the effort it takes to keep him calm in obedience...and agility. In a show ring instead of the spinning, I will probably just do little bits of heeling with him to keep him engaged. That's one thing about him...when he's in the show ring, 100% engaged the entire time and he is all business. 

As for that energy...Lars can just summon that volcanic like energy at will. You can feel the energy just crackling off of him like an electrical storm when he's amped. People who aren't even holding his leash can feel that energy crackling off of him when they are standing by him. He can be exhausted from a full day of 6 agility classes...and it will still come in that 6th and be as strong as it was in the 1st. People have recommended I exercise him before shows...and that did absolutely nothing to calm him. I biked him at a steady run for 3 miles before a show that was 3 miles from my house. I thought that would work...oh god, no...that volcano like energy still came. People were like "I thought you were going to exercise him!" And they couldn't believe I ran him with a bike right before I got there. I've tried calming herbal remedies, I've tried smaller venues, bigger venues you name it, I've tried it to get him to act like a normal dog. Lars is Lars and I've accepted him and his drive and I manage it the best I can. Like I said above...one does not simply settle Lars down. LOL 


Thank you anyway for the input...there was stuff in there that will help me out on this journey of mine with Lars towards our UD.


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## MrsBoats

Here's Lars in a trial setting...











That second one...we did beat an OTCH hunter in a run off for second place with heeling. And...I know about that twitch with the fingers on recalls...I don't realize I'm doing it at the time. I'm working on that. Now I try to remember to grab my leg to keep me from doing that.

Here's the point break down of the 196.5. 2 points on heeling (1 interference, 1 forge) 1 point DOR for traveling. 0 points off for both ROF and ROHJ and .5 point for the broad jump for a crooked front. (I have a record book and I always ask the judge what I got dinged on so I can learn. I didn't have it yet for the HIT run.)

Petpeeve, I would love to see some Utility runs of yours!  You have any of you working your dogs??


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## trainingjunkie

Very fun to watch your videos! What a great team!


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## Shep

Great attitude on Gator, and he has very nice, snappy sits!


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## MrsBoats

OMG...I just love Gator. I have to show my BFF with her pittie Tillie this Utility video of Gator.


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## trainingjunkie

Thanks! I am pretty fond of him! Such a Wacko!

One thing we are never lacking in is Enthusiasm! Accuracy is tough, but energy is easy! 

All dogs have their plusses and minuses. Gator has been pretty easy. We probably have accomplished as much as we are ever going to. It's sure been fun!


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## MrsBoats

Oh yes...errors of enthusiasm. We are quite familiar with those. LOL But you know what, I will gladly take those from a dog that loves his job and loves to work with me than a super score from a dog who plods around the ring wishing they were anywhere other than doing that obedience. 

Lars has taught me so, so much and he is making me a much more aware handler. No dog is perfect and those pluses and minuses are there to teach the handler in how to both to their advantage.


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## Shep

Ty and Scot and I went to a show & go on Saturday. Ty got in two Utility runs in preparation for our next show two weeks from now. He has been a back burner dog for years, which I feel bad about. I have trouble concentrating on more than one dog at a time; I always seem to end up short-changing one in favor of the other. While I was showing Mace to his OTCH and beyond, I got so caught up in it that Ty got less and less work and ended up being more of a pet. But we're trying now to buckle down and get that UD, at least. He is a wonderful boy who deserves it. Here's our second run. It's missing the first part of the heeling pattern, and we skipped articles since they were a disaster the first time around (for whatever reason, Ty is completely unpredictable on scent discrimination and often seems to forget he has a nose).


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## trainingjunkie

Very fun to watch! Thank you for sharing! Great to be able to attach a face and a dog to a screen name! Happy journey!!!

I can't imagine the excitement of an OTCH! Right now, I am wresting with the thought of trying for a UDX. It's all daunting to me.

Can't wait to hear how things go for you!


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## MrsBoats

Shep! That was a lot of fun to watch!! Thanks for sharing!!! You guys will get that UD!!!   

We did a show and go yesterday and we ran Utility and Open. Utility was great and I think we would have qualified if it had been real. Lars nailed everything...the only real blip we had was he veered to the right on his go outs. There was a power outlet on the wall and a lot of the dogs were veering to that instead of the stantion. The wall behind the ring gates was corrugated metal with strong vertical lines...I think the stantion was very hard to see but the power outlet wasn't. That's one thing to proof for!

There was a guy taking pics of the dogs and handlers and I'll post some for you guys! 

Retrieve over the high jump - Open










Heeling - halt 










Directed Jumping Go Outs...










Lars loving life in obedience -


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## SDRRanger

Love the pictures of him. You can tell he REALLY likes what he gets to do.


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## Kyllobernese

We had our Fun Match on Saturday for Obedience and Agility. I did a couple of run-throughs in the Agility with Remmy but I was mainly there for the obedience. I have been training Kris, my Doberman, two or three times a week since Kris was spayed in January. I had done some Obedience with her since she was a pup but have been really concentrating on it this year. She is 13 months old and is finally starting to settle down but still has her "puppy moments". In our obedience group there are only four or five of us and she has gotten used to them so it was really exciting for her with all the new dogs and people.

I think she is going to pretty good eventually although her heeling left a lot to be desired at this point. After we did the heel on leash, the judge asked if I wanted to do her off leash and was really surprised after seeing her on leash, that I said yes. She actually heeled off leash better than on as she had time to settle down. Her figure 8 was good and her Stand For examination was perfect, she never has minded people going over her, just stands stock still. Her recall would have been good, came racing up to me but went straight to heel instead of stopping in front of me so that needs some work. She passed the Long sit but for some reason would not stay on the Down Stay which she is usually really good at. I took her outside afterwards and she really had to pee, so that was my fault.

I was going to start Foundation Agility but the classes were cancelled so I am going to concentrate on the Obedience and plan to do Rally with her.


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## Salina

Sookie and I got our Rally Advanced title last weekend. We did two trials on Saturday and one on Sunday. We got a 93, 94 and 97. Even though the scores are good, I thought she didnt do too good. she was all over the place and did not pay attention.


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## kadylady

Luke and I did our first UKC Rally trial today. We had 2 run today, qualified in both, scored 94 on the first and a perfect 100 on the second! He was a little slow and sluggish at times but overall a really good boy. We were in a new building again and conformation shows going on at the same time in adjoining rings, so he was in out of of focus a lot on the first run. Second was much better. One more run tomorrow morning, a qualifying score will get us a Rally 1 title.

Second run, score of 100


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## kadylady

Luke earned his URO1 this weekend! We got the 3rd leg Sunday morning, scored 98. He did super this weekend, very proud of him. We have an AKC trial coming up March 21st and will be our first time in Advanced. Zoey is also coming with us for her first rally trial and my first time ever having more than one dog at a trial!


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## elrohwen

Yay for you and Luke!


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## Miss Bugs

congrats!!

I have a question for all those that are not CARO Rally..what are the deductions for each venue? I am curious purely because of all the "perfect" scores...I have been competing for over a year now, sees INCREDIBLE runs and NEVER seen a perfect score, I assume it just comes down to each venues deduction rules, I'd love to learn what constitutes a deduction and how many points in each venue!

NVM, I found some. CKC's compared to CARO's the deduction reasons are the same, but CARO's seem to be higher(ie, 1 point off CKC is 2 points off CARO/3 points CKC is 5 points CARO etc..) this would explain my confusion lol, I watch videos and deduct 2 points for things in my head that are only getting knocked 1 cuz its a different venue haha. 

looks similar for AKC except that it appears an incorrectly preformed station is 10 points? its an automatic NQ in CARO(well, it IS 10 points but 10 points on 1 station is an NQ) and AKC appears to allow 1 re-try is all classes, where as CKC and CARO only allow retrys in Novice and Advanced, once in excellent your screwed lol . I also don't see any double command deductions in AKC?? is that correct? goodness once your in out of novice(-2 for repeats) double commands will kill you lol(-3 for first repeat, then -5 for each repeat after)

not finding much on UKC, and don't even know what other venues there are lol. 

that said CARO does not have an Honour exercise, and treats are allowed in Novice and Advanced, nor does the judge tell you when to go, they just say "whenever your ready" lol I would be totally lost in another venue!!


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## MrsBoats

I grabbed some videos of go out training from yesterday. Here's Ocean doing crazy wild baby boy go outs. LOL With him, it's all about building value for running out to the stantion and turning and sitting facing me. We aren't doing distance and there's no directed jumping at this point of the game. I got a good chuckle when I said "ready" Ocean locked and loaded himself like he was going to shoot himself out of a cannon at the stantion. LOL






Ocean says "GO OUTS ARE THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ZOMG!!!"


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## Miss Bugs

so I was really waffling on even entering Paisley in the next Rally trial, and apparently not only am I entering her, she is doing Team as well lol. Gem and Paisley are both in classes right now, Pais in Novice and Gem in Excellent(and starting versatility next month), last night my trainer contacted me about entering Paisley, because one of the dogs in Gem's class was looking for a novice team partner, and obviously because I was worried enough about entering Paisley at all I said "sure why not" to even more runs lol. its going to be very confusing because Gem and Paisley will both be doing Novice Team, so I am going to have to do some planning with figuring out which coarse halves and walking the coarses!


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## Shep

The dogs and I just started obedience classes (most of the time I have to train alone), and we had two really great ones last night. Young Scot is in Competition Heeling, where he actually managed to pay attention (for everything but the heeling right up to another dog and then doing an about turn; that was a little much), do quick, straight sits, and hold a sit stay in a lineup. Utility class followed, and it was even better. Ty did several lovely go-outs while people were practicing signals and heeling right next to him. Then we moved to the other ring, where I told the multi-OTCH instructor that Ty would probably get the wrong article, since he does this about half the time at home, never mind in a highly distracting environment. He promptly got both correct articles without the slightest hesitation, no mat sniffing, no mouthing, just perfect. Um, how do I get help with fixing his problem if he won't admit he has one? 

Anyway, a really fun night, and encouraging!


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## Kyllobernese

The only Rally we have around here is Caro, other than CKC so that is what I am aiming at with Kris. I wish there were classes available for it but nobody around here. I did take Lucy to some Rally classes last year over an hour's drive away but they do not hold it regularly. At least it gave me some idea of what to expect. I did not realize you could use treats in Caro but that would help although I did not use any treats in the one Fun Trial I had Kris in and she was fine, just not as focused.


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## Miss Bugs

ya in CARO treats are allowed only in novice and advanced, they can only be given at the END of a stationary exercise(and the dog cant break position for it), the treats must be in your right hand pocket and be given from your right hand, you cannot make a move to get treat from your pocket till the exercise is finished and they cannot be used as a lure(nore can you pretend to lure). I like HAVING the treats their, but honestly I rarely use the option. only CARO and CKC here as well, and nobody does CKC so CARO is all I know, I was curious after last weeks class cuz my instructor was talking about CKC rally and calling it a "joke",this made me curious as to other venues from people who actually DO them lol


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## kadylady

We went to an AKC Rally trial on Friday, it was my first time bringing both dogs to an event, Zoey's first Rally trial and Luke's first time in Advanced.

Luke was his usual happy self and did super in Advanced, scored 96 and got second place.






Zoey rocked her first Rally trial ever and I could not believe the amazing attention she gave me! She also scored a 96! 






They got to pick toys out of a bag after they got their ribbons. It was Luke's favorite part lol


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## BlackHaus

Awesome, congrats to the three of you!


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## BlackHaus

Odin and I finished our RA this afternoon! Placed 4th overall due to a handler error (oops..) but I'd rather it be my fault.  Moving on to RE next, contemplating trying to knock out a CD at the same time..


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## kadylady

Thank you BlackHaus! And congrats to you and Odin as well! He is a gorgeous boy!


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## Miss Bugs

Rally trial today! 

Gem-Excellent- she forgot how to jump......Gem NEVER EVER refuses a jump, ever in her life, this dog will jump ANYTHING I point to and say "jump". we practised jumps before the trial, as usual never even considered refusing, usually I have to rein her back. so what does she do? I send her to the broad jump...she walks away to the weaves....5 times in a row... finally she went to the jump, half jumped it(walked on the last board), then back to other stuff, did good like usual, got to the big distraction before(the weaves) and she doesn't take them..after like 2 tries she dove through them like normal but skipped the entrance, I didn't care since she had already NQ'd lol. aside from that weirdness, she did great!

Paisley-Novice- first trial ever, I'v only had her 6 months and when I got her she had been beaten and was so terrified of people that she would throw herself on the ground and pee if anyone looked at her. she is doing super good now, but I didn't know how she would be with so many people gathered around. outside the ring she was amazing, those who knew her before couldn't believe how confidant she was, she was running up to every stranger she saw with a wagging tail. she got in the ring, she did AWESOME....until she suddenly realized she was in a ring and there was a whole bunch of people staring at her, and she froze, like literally she just froze in place with her eyes glazed over. I had to sit down on the floor waving my hands in front of her face to snap her out of the trance, we finished the coarse, but she wasn't in it any more after that point. 

both did Novice Team, Gem and her partner got their second Q finally!!!(Gem's good, her partner is on and off though) and Paisley did MUCH better ion the ring this time, she was confidant and perky, she struggled with the halt-sit-down, but that sign was right in the corner where she was completely surrounded by the crowd again, she didn't freeze this time though, she was just a little freaked out and needed some coaxing, but she Q'd!!! that's Paisley first Q is anything ever


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## Miss Bugs

Day 2-

Paisley-Novice Team- second Q! I opted for the second half so she didn't have to face the crowd and she did great! 

Novice- she did soooo good!! She froze on her sits when she saw the audience but she did them with coaxing. We NQd because we went way overtime lol other then that I was super proud of her!!

Gem- Novice Team- got her title!! She is now Gem CGN CRA-CL CRN-T
-Excellent- she did awesome!!! Her first Excellent Q, and high in class! She was slightly crooked on her moving down cuz it was right after weaves and she was amped, and she sat slightly crooked on the both second sits on both pivots, she swung her butt slightly behind me both times, which cost her a lot of points. Otherwise I was super pumped about that run lol


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## Kyllobernese

I went to a Starter Obedience class last Thursday as I wanted to work with Kris around a bunch of strange dogs. Did not expect the class to be as big as last year there were only six or seven in it. This time there were about 30 so they divided it into two groups with most of the small dogs in one group and the bigger more boisterous dogs in the other. 

I was so pleased with Kris as even with all the dogs, she behaved really well as I have been working on her since the beginning of the year to not have her play bow and bark at strange dogs. She was almost 100%, just almost lost it once but I just said her name and she looked at me and I gave her a treat. Much improved since I had her at a Fun Trial in February when I had to keep turning her away from the dogs and taking her away from them, although she was good in the ring by herself.


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## kadylady

Congrats Miss Bugs! Sounds like a great weekend for you 3!


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## Miss Bugs

thanks 

here a pic of my Ladies with their ribbons, the 2 between Paisley's legs are her's(2 Q ribbons), the rest are Gem's(3 Q ribbons a high in class ribbon and a new title ribbon)


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## BlackHaus

Odin and I had quite the day yesterday..

Our local GSD club was hosting a specialty show, and I entered us into Rally Excellent and Novice Obedience, I figured we would be ok entering both since we've been able to work on the exercises for both and have been doing well.

... I don't know what possessed my dog but I have never been so confused and mortified by his behavior in the 5 years that I've had him. We earned our first NQs yesterday (and boy did we earn them..)

It was almost as if as soon as we entered the ring it had occurred to him that this was now the "no correction zone" and he was free to do as he pleased. Attention and heeling went out the window. Oddly enough the exercises that I was somewhat concerned about (backwards heeling, stand out of motion, stand for exam) he aced. When we got to the recall in obedience he trotted toward me when I called him, and when he was 2-3 feet away from me he just veered off and went and checked out the corner of the ring. I know everyone says this, but he's never done that before. Needless to say we weren't invited back for the group exercises.

I'm very confused by the whole ordeal. Usually if I have any issues with him it's typically some flatness in obedience or a little lagginess in heeling, but he has never just completely blown me off like that. He was fantastic when we practiced alongside the ring before going in, so I'm wondering now if he's catching on..

I'm going to give it another shot next month and see if maybe yesterday was just some weird Twilight Zone kind of day, and try to trouble shoot a bit from there. I guess he just likes to keep me on my toes.. :frusty:


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## milobanana

> It was almost as if as soon as we entered the ring it had occurred to him that this was now the "no correction zone" and he was free to do as he pleased. Attention and heeling went out the window. Oddly enough the exercises that I was somewhat concerned about (backwards heeling, stand out of motion, stand for exam) he aced. When we got to the recall in obedience he trotted toward me when I called him, and when he was 2-3 feet away from me he just veered off and went and checked out the corner of the ring. I know everyone says this, but he's never done that before. Needless to say we weren't invited back for the group exercises.
> 
> I'm very confused by the whole ordeal. Usually if I have any issues with him it's typically some flatness in obedience or a little lagginess in heeling, but he has never just completely blown me off like that. He was fantastic when we practiced alongside the ring before going in, so I'm wondering now if he's catching on..
> 
> I'm going to give it another shot next month and see if maybe yesterday was just some weird Twilight Zone kind of day, and try to trouble shoot a bit from there. I guess he just likes to keep me on my toes..


Awww, I'm sorry you and Odin had a rough trial. When I sense Milo getting a bit ring-smart, we do a ton of run-throughs before the next show to remind him that the rules still apply in a show environment.

If you think he's also figured out that there are no food rewards in the ring, you could try jackpot-ing during your training sessions. The goal is to teach the concept of delayed gratification, and eventually complete an entire rally course or obedience sequence before doling out a bunch of really wonderful treats as soon as you step out of the ring. You can build up to this slowly; for instance, start by completing only a 5-sign rally course before rewarding, and so on.


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## BlackHaus

I'm thinking or may have just been a really off day, we entered another trial earlier this month and upped our training and it really paid off! We not only qualified but we took first in our class!  it was a very welcome surprise. We attempt our second keg in a few weeks, hopefully we can continue the hard work and good luck! 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## elrohwen

BlackHaus said:


> I'm thinking or may have just been a really off day, we entered another trial earlier this month and upped our training and it really paid off! We not only qualified but we took first in our class!  it was a very welcome surprise. We attempt our second keg in a few weeks, hopefully we can continue the hard work and good luck!
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Awesome!! Congrats!


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## Finkie_Mom

Resurrecting this thread a bit to just show a couple of videos. The first is a dog from work (in training for SAR/detection) and the second is my Jari. Nothing super fancy, but I'm so proud of both of them. Jari has been struggling lately with his focus, but he seems to be getting back in to the game. He rarely gets to use that blue room at work (I can count on one hand the number of times he's been in there) so I figured it would be a good spot to see where he's at with only people distractions. 

Here's Sirius:





And Jari:


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## elrohwen

Nice videos. Jari is so stinking cute.

And I love the lab. So much enthusiasm!


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## Finkie_Mom

elrohwen said:


> Nice videos. Jari is so stinking cute.
> 
> And I love the lab. So much enthusiasm!


Thanks!!! Jari IS really cute. I'm really honored to have bred him, even though he drives my insane a good amount of the time 

And the Lab is my best dog from work. I wish I could keep him, but I do not have the room/time for another dog, especially one that is SO drivey. We're hoping his right job will come along soon. He is an amazing search dog.


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## ireth0

Just wanted to post because Luna is going to her first obedience class tonight! Hopefully we don't make fools of ourselves!

I'm interested to see what other dogs are there and meet the trainer.


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## kadylady

We had an amazing day at the Rally Trial on Friday. It was 2 trials back to back and both dogs qualified in both their classes to receive their respective titles! To make it even better, this was the toughest judge that I have shown under to date and I was very happy with our scores. Her average score was probably low 80's/high 70's.

Luke was in Advanced A and scored a 97 earning 2nd place and a 98 earning 1st place and received his Rally Advanced title. He performed beautifully. My only critique is I wish I could have gotten him a little peppier in the second trial, but it was hot and he was tired. It just felt very slow motion, but accurate and this judge was all about accuracy so we scored well. 

Zoey was in Novice B and scored an 89 earning 3rd place and a 92 earning 4th place and received her Rally Novice title. She did super for her second time and me hardly practicing with her. Our biggest issue was probably getting knocked for tight leashes a few times because she got a little distracted a few times throughout the course and would stop to look. 

Couldn't have asked for a better day with these two!


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## Miss Bugs

Got the running order for our trial this weekend...holy smoke is the trial ever tiny lol, I knew lots of people weren't going because of the location(apparently the place is smelly. never been though so I dunno) I counted 10 dogs...like 10 dogs total..in the entire trial..over 2 days
..fewer if I count by the day! This is good, Paisley's issue is that she gets nervous when lots of people are watching and she freezes..there is only 2 dogs in her class, this will likely be much more comfortable for her so fingers crossed she gets some Qs! Gem needs 2 more Qs for her excellent title and has 2 runs, hopefully we'll get her title this weekend!


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## Eeyore

We are entering our first obedience trial on saturday... our biggest issue is the 2 minute down-stay, which he might handle just fine, or he might get up and walk straight over to me. I'm pretty convinced he won't disturb the other dogs, at least. I think we'll manage otherwise, maybe not get full score, but something decent. If he's perfect in the stay, I'll go find more trial the minute I get home!

Then, on sunday, we're taking a class on only creating a good 'stay'. I'm simply not very good at teaching it, since I get just as bored as my dog. I'm hoping to learn some positive coping strategies


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## trainingjunkie

Good luck! I hope it goes well! Enjoy it and try to stay calm! No matter what happens, they almost always let you keep your dog!!!


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## Apricot

Congratulations, kadylady! That's no small feat! 

For the stay, what I found worked really well was the 300 peck method. 

Elsie and I are cleaning up our open work, and we're just starting to train for utility now.


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## Kyllobernese

The main reason I have been thinking of Rally for Kris rather than an Obedience trial is her long down. Usually she stays fine but every once in a while she just gets up and walks towards me. She never bothers any of the other dogs but as it is so random, it is hard to know how to make it more solid. I have gone back to not leaving her as long and gradually extending it and can leave her in a down anywhere and she stays, it just seems she does it when she is sitting in a line with the other dogs.


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## Miss Bugs

Paisley got her first ever Novice Q today!! 174, she was super freaked out and kept wandering away and looking behind her(because the judge was following us lol) so we lost a load of points on double commands, but she didn't freeze, which is what happened last time when she freeze in place and just stand there, her eyes glazed over in fear. None of that this time..well except on the halt sit stand she had a frozen moment but it was short lol

Gem......someone traded her for a different dog... lol she was out of her mind!! i could hardly even get her to heel, she was running in circles and leaping through the air barking. She's always a little weird in the ring but not to THAT extent! I normally get a little upset when she acts up in the ring but she was so completly off her rocker that I couldnt even be upset, I was just looking at her like...who ARE you? Lol the good news is....so were all the other dogs in the class lol some of the dogs I have never seen act up in their lives were acting the same as Gem, just bouncing all over the place doing whatever the heck they felt like. The judge was like "well you all have very spirited dogs" lol


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## Miss Bugs

well for the first weekend in her life, Gem did Nada at this trial. she was soooo off this whole weekend, just not herself at ALL. she was so distracted by everything around her, I could hardly keep her attention, she was barking and jumping around all over the place :/ she is always goofy in trials but she's not usually THAT goofy, just like.. grring and nipping my pant legs while heeling and swinging her butt too far around me. not wandering off, bouncing and barking... she didn't do THAT bad today, it was mostly just flying in the air to give me cheek kisses mid run and wandering off at times not looking at me. she NQ'd because she pointed out on the call front forward right... she chose to forget what "front" meant and double commands in Excellent will kill you lol. she did all her "hard" stuff great, her moving stand and moving down were awesome, her jump and weaves were beautiful, her back up 3 steps with perfect etc.. its that friggen FRONT that killed her lol 

my little star Paisley OTH did phenomenal! I cannot even explain how proud of her I am, next month it will be 1 year since I adopted her and she was scared to death of people, her first trial she was a deer in the headlights, eyes glazed over just frozen in fear. this was her second trial and while she was sketched out a bit yesterday she Q'd..and today she did even better! she Q'd with a 184, and she ONLY lost points on double commands when her fear got the better of her and she looked away from me and got sketched out, otherwise when her focus was on me, she was amazing!!


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## Eeyore

trainingjunkie said:


> Good luck! I hope it goes well! Enjoy it and try to stay calm! No matter what happens, they almost always let you keep your dog!!!


Haha, thanks! Our scores were a disaster, mainly because he got too happy and excited, and really wanted to get his tug-reward. The absolutely best reason to get a "bad" result  Heeling was a bit unfocused initially, mainly because I didn't prepare him. When he realised what we were doing, he immideately shaped up. Down-stay was a disaster, I got insecure because we got the wrong instructions in the last seconds before leaving the dogs, but the class we took teh day after was really inspiring! So no hard feeling on that part. 

And for the last parts, he managed to wait for my command on the jumping hurdle, which is awesome since that's what got us a 0 on the recall - he just went for it. Apart from that, the recall was perfect  And he was really happy and loved the judge when it was time for her to look at his teeth! Those two made my day, because he managed to contain himself for the hurdle, meaning he actually learned during our obedience program, and the teeth showing because he has been socially insecure. The dogs before us tried to escape the judge to some extent, but he could barely maintain his 'sit' because he wanted MORE contact when she bent over him and lifted his lips! Full score, of course it doesn't affect the total very much (a factor of one, while the down-stay is multiplied by 4 for the total sum), but since it shows improvement in his general attitude it really made my day!


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## MrsBoats

Lars went and did his first official obedience run thrus on Sunday since May 6th (the last time he showed in Utility and the last time he's been in an obedience ring since getting hurt.) He jumped 10" in both Open and Utility. He nailed Open and there were a few small bumps in Utility which we can iron out easily. He got a little confused on the signals because for his rehab, I had been doing quite a bit of stand, down, sit and from a distance. When I signaled for him to come....he looked at me like "Um, I'm supposed to down again." He was going a little wide on his go outs but that's an easy fix. We have been doing a couple of weeks of short go outs (about 12 - 15') for rehab...now I have to get that muscle memory back to go straight out with no bow. 

Lars was THRILLED he "was back" and he RAWRED his fool head off every exercise. I was so happy to see him so happy.

O worked a couple of novice runs and he was also really happy to be in the obedience ring. Sometimes O gets a little worried in the obedience ring...but not on Sunday! He owned his stand for exam and didn't even glance at the person who was the "judge." That was a big success for him. I think he's growing up and figuring out that obedience is cool too. I can thank all of the agility we've been doing lately for boosting his confidence in this ring too. I was wondering if obedience was going to be in Ocean's cards. But, if he keeps on mentally maturing like he has this summer, I think he can do it. 

The next show we've got is the end of September where Lars can finally bang out that last RAE leg we didn't get because my car blew up on the way to that show in March. Ocean will head into the Rally Excellent ring that same show. Now that agility season is starting to wind down, I'll do more rally with O and see if he can get as comfortable in the rally ring as he is in the agility ring. Like I mentioned in the Conditioning thread, the target dates for Lars to come back to the Utility show ring and get that last UD leg is the end of October - beginning of November. I really missed working Lars and he missed working just as much. I'm so glad to have my partner back.


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## kadylady

So I've decided that I would like to try obedience with Luke. He's been doing really great in Rally and I think it would be good for both of us to work in obedience. There's a local trial the first weekend in December and we've shown and practiced at the location many times. I already plan to enter Rally on Friday but am considering entering Obedience on Saturday. I'm undecided at this point if I should enter Beginner Novice or go straight to Novice. I've read the obedience rules several times and it looks like the biggest difference is the lack of group exercises in Beginner and a sit for exam vs a stand for exam. Honestly I don't forsee him having any issues with the group exercises as he comes with me to an outdoor class that I teach and spends a large portion of the time in a sit or down stay amidst the group as I teach and help students. So any thoughts on Beginner Novice vs Novice from someone with some obedience experience would be great!

I had wanted to try and get into a class at the local obedience club but couldn't make my schedule work for it. So, I'm seriously considering taking an online Fenzi class to help us get ready, there's one starting Oct 1st called "Get Novice/Open Ready" and sounds perfect for where we are at and hopefully help me better understand what is expected in the ring. At this point I'm leaning towards the Bronze level. Has anyone taken any Fenzi classes or other online classes? Thoughts? The club also has monthly matches and I should be able to get to both of them the next 2 months and get some practice and pointers.


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## trainingjunkie

There is a pretty big difference between Beginner Novice (BN) and Novice. 

In BN, the heeling pattern is set up rally style. You walk the pattern by following signs. In Novice, a judge calls the pattern. There is no off-leash heeling in BN. In Novice, you heel the pattern twice, once on lead and then once off. 

On the recall, in BN, there is no finish. Plus, in BN you are allowed opportunities to praise your dog or offer a second command without penalty as long as you follow the specific rules regarding that.

Since the clubs started regularly offering BN, I have entered my dogs in it before their CD (Novice) attempts. Obedience work is substantially different from rally, so running them through BN first allows me to see if they are ready for that leash to come off in trial.

My whippet was the #1 rally whippet last year, but when we went in the BN ring, I saw weaknesses that I wanted to work on before entering in Novice. She was able to qualify on her runs, but I could see a loss of focus and confidence that would have hurt us in the Novice ring.

It would be an easy call for me. I would do BN first.

As for the Fenzi classes, I have now taken 14 of them. I love the place. The instructor of the class you are considering is really, really spectacular. It'll be the best $65 bucks you'll ever spend on training.

Good luck with whatever you decide! Welcome to Obedience!


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## kadylady

Thank you trainingjunkie for the perspective on BN vs Novice, exactly what I was looking for! As you broke it down I realized one thing that I hadn't thought about yet and that was the amount of time spent in the ring. It sounds like one spends a bit more time in the obedience ring per run vs rally. Luke is a dog that mentally burns out fast, I don't do a whole lot of warm-up with him because he gets mentally tired pretty quick and I hadn't thought of that in relation to an obedience run. Sounds like the BN would be a little more relaxed for both of us for our first time and that's definitely the direction I am leaning now.

Thanks for the feedback on the Fenzi classes as well. I know a few people here have taken them and always seem to have good things to say about them, so I will probably go ahead and try it out.


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## elrohwen

No idea about BN vs Novice, but I can comment on Fenzi classes.

They are awesome! I think the level you take really depends on where you are at. For a skill you are a complete novice at, I don't think gold can be beat. It's easy to get stuck and without someone to see what you're doing it may be hard to move on. It's expensive, but I got so so much out of taking the precision heeling class at gold level.

If it's something you are going to have a lot of questions on, silver is good. I've done two silver classes and one wasn't worth it, because I just didn't have questions I could ask without someone seeing my dog. That one was a focus class, and lack of focus is so individual to each dog that you can't really write about it. In the other class it was fine because it was easy enough to describe the behaviors - the class was about play and it's easy to describe a dog not bringing a toy back. So I think silver is hit or miss depending on the class and your situation.

Bronze is always worth it!


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## Kyllobernese

We had one of our members who had a Springer and had never ever even attended a trial take the Beginner Novice (forget what it is called in CKC) which sounds the same. She was glad she did as now she has a good idea what trialing is like and will enter in Regular Novice the next time and try for her CD. Her dog does really well but it gave her the chance to do an easier version for their first time.


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## kadylady

Glad you replied Elrohwen, I remember that you had taken some Fenzi classes before. I'm not 100% sure on the level I want to take yet. I'm leaning towards Bronze with this class and I saw Precision Heeling is offered in December, so I may save for gold for that class. Heeling is certainly one of my weaknesses as a trainer.


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## trainingjunkie

Just an additional perspective on the transition from the Rally ring into the obedience ring:

In rally, the handler is allowed to repeat commands, use hand signals, and talk to their dogs. Also, because of the stations, the heeling is very broken up. This is both a challenge and a crutch. For some dogs, the stop/start nature of Rally is a challenge. For dogs that tend to lose "heel" position, the stations give the team a chance to reset and not drift too far out of heel. 

Once in the obedience ring, you have to stop talking to your dog, leading them with your hands, and repeating commands. The handler must go Still. For some dogs, the loss of the additional instructions and the loss of their handler's voice can be very challenging. There are regulations in place that dictate the handler's hand positions. This does not exist in rally. Something to train for.

Plus, the runs are longer. The BN course is probably about twice as long as a rally run by the time you factor in the stay. The Novice run is much longer even without the stays because you have to factor in the transitions from exercise to exercise and the additional heeling run. In BN, the flow of the course really minimizes the transition times. 

I love obedience. I prefer it to rally. However, there are lots of rules that can feel "nit-picky" if you are used to the handler's freedom in rally. If you know and understand the rules, your experience will be much better. The rules are a bit relaxed in BN compared to Novice. I suggest reading the rules several times and making sure that you understand them. It will take a lot of the stress out of showing if you are very aware of the regulations.

Good luck! I love it! Hope you do too!


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## kadylady

Again...a whole bunch of things I hadn't even thought of! lol I knew you guys would have good advice for me! I can now see how it as a totally different thing from Rally. You've given me a lot of things to think about and train towards. The heeling is definitely our weakness. It's interesting, now that I think about it Luke benefits from the stop/start heeling in Rally, but for Zoey it is actually an added challenge. My dogs ended up with totally different heeling styles and strengths/weaknesses which is so interesting to me, picking out how/why they differ the way they do.

I'm actually really excited about the challenges that obedience offers and I can see so many ways that it will help further me as a trainer. I'm already getting excited over here about learning the new things and taking the classes and figuring out a training game plan. I've read the rules at least half a dozen times now and still pick out something new/different that I may have missed or forgot from the previous time lol


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## elrohwen

If you're interested in heeling stuff at Fenzi Academy, "heeling games" is also a great class. You need some sort of basic heeling (which you obviously have), and there are a lot of games to help dogs with different issues (whether forging, lagging, crazy energy, not enough energy, etc).

Precision heeling was great to go from kind of a loose left side walking heel to having tight turns and giving Watson a real understanding of where heel position was.


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## Shep

Kudos to you, Kadylady, for reading the rules! It's amazing how many people don't, even though every time you send in an entry, you're affirming that you have read and understand the obedience regulations.


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## trainingjunkie

I'm super excited for you! Enjoy it all!

One last piece of input for consideration and then I will do my very best to Shut Up! 

When I started competing, I trialed 2 dogs simultaneously in Novice A. My husband would come in and handle the sits/downs on one of my dogs. One of my dogs was just great. He took to it like a duck to water. My other dog got really nervous and had 2 borderline but qualifying runs and then flipped out and wanted nothing to do with the ring for her title run.

I should not have been showing my second dog. The minute I saw that she was in over her comfort level, I should have pulled her from competition and went back to training. Thankfully, I only let her flounder for 2 NQs (at the same trial) but I did a lot of damage to her confidence by trialing her too soon. If I had just entered my bold dog who was ready and let my nervous dog wait until she was better prepared, I would have saved her/us a bunch of heartache. 

I rebuilt her confidence and returned to the ring successfully, but it took almost 2 years to do it. Had I waited, we could have done it in much less time with much less baggage. I took a dog who could have been special and ended with up having to celebrate competence and a happy attitude. She taught me that slowing down is often the fastest path. She was fabulous. She deserved a better handler. My more durable dog survived all of my impatience and my training errors. He would have been a better performance dog if he had had a better handler, but he made the most of what he had/has. He has always made me look better than I am.

Long story short: If you get there and can see that your dog isn't ready, scratch and come back later. Do everything you can to make sure your dog has a good experience. You can get away with a lot with a durable dog, but with a sensitive one, be very, very mindful. If a shy dog learns that the ring is terrifying, it is very hard to change their minds. Make sure your dog is comfortable! In the long run, you will be so glad for it.

Trialing in a place you are familiar with is a very wise decision!


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## kadylady

trainingjunkie said:


> One last piece of input for consideration and then I will do my very best to Shut Up!


Please don't! lol Always enjoy reading your responses!

It sounds like such an easy thing to do... pull your dog if they aren't ready. But I imagine pretty hard to actually do once you are committed. 

My agility instructor has been really amazing in helping set a good mindset for competing with my dogs and being able to focus on them having a good experience vs whether or not we Q.


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## trainingjunkie

I recently walked off of a rally course at sign 7! I thanked the judge, walked out and told my dog she was great and pulled her from the next day, forfeiting my entry fees. 

Hard to do, but worth it. 

On the way out, the judge said, "Good call. That's good training." At the time I pulled, we were qualifying, but she was struggling. The moment she did something well, I walked out and partied with her.

Haven't entered her since. That was May. Bad me for over-estimating her preparedness. It turned out to be a much more difficult trial set up than I expected. Lots of dogs struggled. My good old stand by dog was pretty flakey and hard to partner with as well. Live and learn!


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## Shep

Trainingjunkie is right! Our dogs need our support in the ring. If things start going downhill, do whatever you need to do to help. Please don't just stand there looking helpless while your dog flounders around in confusion. You CAN leave the ring if you need to! Many people don't know this. Just tell the judge, "We need to leave the ring" and go. Nobody will shoot you, and most judges will be completely understanding. And if the judge isn't understanding, tough. Leave anyway. It's your dog and your money.


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## petpeeve

Isn't there a "dogs must compete" rule? I looked online at the AKC obedience and rally regs and couldn't find anything.

In CKC obedience and rally, the rule is as follows:



> 6.4 Dogs Must Compete
> 
> 6.4.1 - Any dog entered and received at a [rally] obedience trial must compete in all exercises of all classes in which it is entered, unless excused by the judge, official veterinarian, superintendent, or the Obedience Trial Committee chair. If excused by the official veterinarian, the excuse must be in writing on the form provided and attached to the judge's book. If the dog is excused by either the superintendent, judge, or Obedience Trial Committee chair, a note to this effect must be written on the inside cover of the judge's book and the reason stated thereon.


There is a difference between 'can' and 'permitted to'. Sure, you 'can' leave, but do that one too many times and judges and competitors will likely start to look down on you. Judges don't like to do more paperwork than absolutely necessary. Fellow competitors appreciate it when everyone sticks to the rules. 

As the old saying goes, a seasoned competitor knows how to properly NQ. Prepare for the worst, and react optimally whenever it may occur. Most obedience hopefuls seem to overlook that very important fact, and are approaching things strictly from a how to Q standpoint. Bottom line ... make certain you are fully prepared for all eventualities before you even set foot into the ring.

It's a cage match, here in Canada anyways. Nobody gets out till the fat lady sings.


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## Miss Bugs

I was looking into the precision heeling Fenzi class for Gem lol. I have just searched some random Fenzi video's I have found and been using those to work on it. the thing with Gem is..its not that she doesn't know HOW to heel well..its more that she gets bored of heeling and starts adding "extra's" lol all the "difficult" things she is super super good at, everyone at trials is always super jealous of her moving down, moving stand, anything like pivots and turns and side steps and backing up that everyone else struggles with, Gem is fast, precise, and 100% every time. but general heeling? general fronts? too easy darn it, so she starts embellishing.."heeling" becomes "walk beside mom with her pants in my mouth" and "front" becomes " jump in the air to bite mom in the nose" and "about turn" becomes "take the sign with me while turning". to make it more fun I have started using her Disc for heeling training instead of treats, and rewarding her frequently with a game of tug. I am finding she is FAR more willing to be engaged without embellishments working for her Disc rather then treats lol. 

the difference in working Gem and Paisley is night and day though, Paisley loves to heel really well while watching me and doing fronts(it means she can stare at me even more directly!!) its all the stops and sits and downs and such that make it harder for her. its not that she can't do them really well, its that in trials, stopping gives her a chance to think and giving her a chance to think is a very bad thing because she psychs herself out.


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## kadylady

So I signed up for the Fenzi class, Get Novice/Open Ready, at the bronze level. I almost didn't and was going to wait until next term to start with some of the more beginner classes but at the last minute just went for it. So far I am absolutely thrilled that I did it! Just reading through the week 1 lectures and reading through the forums and watching everyone else's videos with feedback has given me so much information!! 

It was clear to me that I pretty much have no criteria for heeling other than my dogs being physically near my left side. At this point I've gone back to square one heeling with Luke. He has never been good at holding eye contact while heeling, but why would he be, I never made it clear to him that that's what I wanted. So we are working on breaking it down, one step at a time and am already seeing the behavior that I've always wanted but have never actually asked for. I'm also going to start videoing our training sessions so I can see what I'm doing right/wrong and what his responses are and so on. I'm also using a daily planner to plan our sessions ahead of time and then add notes and using task cards (thanks MrsBoats!!) to make sure we are working on all the parts and varying it up.


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## Shep

Yay for you, Kadylady! I have heard lots of good things about the Fenzi classes. I am reading one of her books right now, and it's good too!


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## MrsBoats

Yeah Ocean!! Played some AKC Rally yesterday and wrapped up that RE in pretty short order. We got a 96 and a first place! We lost some points because the judge was following us like a judge would follow a team in competitive obedience. He was really, really close to us...which I'm not freaked out about and Lars wouldn't be freaked out about it either. Since Ocean is a green dog who hasn't had a lot of obedience experience, the close following judge on our heels made Ocean keep turning around on his sits to keep an eye on him. Then when we did a 270 to the right, the judge was right there and Ocean left me to go sniff him and his clipboard. Because O can be a little suspicious about stuff like that, I gave him a second to check out the judge and let him see he wasn't a threat and then I called him back and he came immediately and went right back to work. It was funny, he was much more relaxed and his enthusiasm shot up when he figured out the judge was nothing he had to worry about. I'm sure we lost 3 - 4 points when O left me...and I'll take those points. My main objective is for Ocean to be happy and relaxed in an obedience environment over perfect performance. We got that...and he did get the opportunity to see that the creeper with the clipboard was nothing to be concerned with. 

We have AKC agility next weekend and a couple of weekends off. Then more AKC rally and some APDT Rally for O. Then the middle of November, I'm hoping to bring Lars back out to show Utility and get that last UD leg.


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## Shep

Nice picture of O! Congrats on the title.


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## trainingjunkie

Congratulations! That's great!


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## Miss Bugs

short clip of Gem practising Heel, with a stand stay tossed in. she got distracted by the neighbour coming outside but recovered Ok I think lol

http://youtu.be/lz-g7cI_JsQ


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## Poly

petpeeve said:


> Isn't there a "dogs must compete" rule? I looked online at the AKC obedience and rally regs and couldn't find anything.
> 
> In CKC obedience and rally, the rule is as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a difference between 'can' and 'permitted to'. Sure, you 'can' leave, but do that one too many times and judges and competitors will likely start to look down on you. Judges don't like to do more paperwork than absolutely necessary. Fellow competitors appreciate it when everyone sticks to the rules.
> 
> As the old saying goes, a seasoned competitor knows how to properly NQ. Prepare for the worst, and react optimally whenever it may occur. Most obedience hopefuls seem to overlook that very important fact, and are approaching things strictly from a how to Q standpoint. Bottom line ... make certain you are fully prepared for all eventualities before you even set foot into the ring.
> 
> It's a cage match, here in Canada anyways. Nobody gets out till the fat lady sings.


In AKC, you can ASK the judge to be excused pretty much any time. It is not an NQ, it is an "excused" and shows up that way in the results. IME, in Obedience/Rally, it is often done when a handler thinks that his/her dog is about to foul the ring, but other reasons have been given. I don't know of any occasion when a judge has not granted the request. 

This actually applies to other competitions as well. I've seen it done in tracking and in field trials for various reasons.

I think it would be most impolite to just walk out of the ring or just leave the competition, although you could be within the AKC rules to do that. However, as has already been stated, word gets around.


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## MrsBoats

I've excused myself from the agility ring in AKC numerous times when I don't feel my dog and I are working together as a team. And I don't want that to become a learned behavior in a trial setting so I shut everything down when my dogs choose to run amok. When things are going badly, I just turn to the judge and say "Thank you!" and they whistle me off. I get an E for excused in the results. I can't imagine the protocol would be much different in obedience...if things were going so badly in the rally or obedience ring, I would say thank you and asked to be excused. I haven't ever had that sort of run where I've felt compelled to excuse myself. I've never heard that you don't have the ability to excuse yourself from an obedience ring.


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## petpeeve

Poly said:


> In AKC, you can ASK the judge to be excused pretty much any time. It is not an NQ, it is an "excused" and shows up that way in the results. IME, in Obedience/Rally, it is often done when a handler thinks that his/her dog is about to foul the ring, but other reasons have been given. I don't know of any occasion when a judge has not granted the request.


I think the 'reason' is what it all boils down to, really.

If, for example you sense your dog is about to foul the ring, or you happen to notice a hitch in your dog's gait halfway through the run, then yeah. After asking to be excused the judge will undoubtedly ask you "why", and if you're fool enough to reply with something like "because my dog is having a bad day, and simply isn't complying", then it's tough luck pal and there's a good chance the judge will overrule your request and at least ask you to try to finish your run. 

It's a different matter altogether when a dog gets the zoomies in either ob or agility, where there's an element of potential self-harm and also harm to others present.


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## Shep

The only time I've ever asked to be excused, my dog was simply brainless. We were in Utility A, and he failed signals (which was very unusual for him). Then we set up for articles, and as I was scenting the first article, he left my side and went to the ring gates to bark at the Doberman in the next ring. I cannot tell you how unlike him this was; he was always very focused on his work and never cared about other dogs. But this was the morning after a four-hour drive to the show, with his 12-week old "brother" barking non-stop almost the entire way. He's a noise-sensitive dog, and the next morning his nerves were still jangled too badly to concentrate. I said, "May we be excused?" and the judge just nodded and we left. No explanation necessary.

All judges used to be exhibitors themselves, and many still are. Most of them understand our problems and are very nice about it. I don't mean you should just bail any time your dog NQ's; that's terrible sportsmanship. But if your dog is clearly in some kind of distress, physical or otherwise, tell the judge politely, "We need to leave the ring," and go.


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## elrohwen

We're going back to rally after a long break! The last obedience-type class we took was in January, but since then I've done a lot of work on heeling (with the help of Fenzi classes). I've been looking for classes in my new location and found a novice rally class on Wednesday nights. Unfortunately I have to miss the first class because Watson has to be with my husband this week, and the 5:30 time will be difficult with my work schedule. But I'm going to try to make it work. I'm also considering restarting agility at the same location later in the year.

My goal is to be competition ready when we go to Welshie nationals next April. I'm not sure if we'll be good enough to qualify, but I'd at least like to be able to complete a novice course and have fun with it. Watson is solid on all of the individual skills, but struggles with focusing long enough to get through more than a couple signs. With our improved heel work, I think we have a decent shot if we practice.


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## kadylady

I've been loving my Fenzi class!! Even though a lot of the information is way further down the line than where I am at right now, I've picked up on so many other basic training things that are improving my training with my dogs and my understand of training certain things. Both of my dogs heeling has improved immensely in the last month, because I now actually understand having criteria for it. I also went back to the beginning and retrained fronts with both of them because I found this big gaping hole where Luke didn't really understand fronts without excessive luring.

I held a Rally drop in session last night for a small group and had some really great run throughs with both my 2. We are headed to an AKC Rally trial on Friday, Luke in Excellent for the first time and Zoey in Advanced for the first time. Luke was so on last night. His favorite person in the world was there with her dog last night and he worked beautifully around her, even though it was super hard. Also had her help with a sit for exam and I thought his brain was going to explode, but he did really good. Zoey was not quite as into as she has been in the past, but it's probably because I don't practice rally/obedience stuff with her very much. I focus much more on agility stuff with her and do the Rally/Obedience stuff more with Luke. I think she will do fine Friday though, she always tend to impress me when I start to doubt her. 

Also....my Beginner Novice entry for the Decemeber trial is headed to the mailbox this afternoon!!!! Eeeekkk!

Also...random googling of Rally courses led me to discover that AKC has Rally National Championships. And that Luke is eligible. Hmmmm....


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## elrohwen

Kadylady, I don't know what I would do without Fenzi courses for heeling. All I had was sort of a loose left side walking, and none of my classes every taught anything more precise than that. The seminar I attended in June used prongs to teach precision (basically a silky leash type of thing, moving away from pressure), so I probably would have gone that route without Fenzi, but I much prefer the way Denise teaches it off leash. 

The LLW work we've done recently has also really helped, since Watson is much more excited to heel in distracting environments. I guess when sniffing and running around like an idiot is off the table, heeling seems like a fun option for a change. Haha. This will be the first time using our new heeling in a class for real (other than the seminar in June) so I really hope it holds together. I can always go back to the pocket hand that Denise teaches, but I've finally weaned him off of that completely at home.

He's a tough dog because he can be so intense in stimulating environments. He's either 100% engaged with heeling, or 100% engaged in doing something else of his choosing. Haha. It took me a long time to realize that, and then even longer to figure out how to require and get 100% enggement in heeling. Now I just have to get it for a whole course instead of a few steps.

I think I need MrsBoats TrainEm Tasks cards for Christmas. I need to work on my own footwork for the signs so I don't slow down and give him an excuse to check out.

ETA: You need to post videos of your runs! I want to see old heeling vs new.


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## trainingjunkie

I will second the request for video!

Good luck at the show!


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## kadylady

Yes, I will be sure to get and share video!

I really struggled teaching heel position with Luke, it was hard for me and hard for him. I was just happy if he hung out near my left side. We're still working on duration but I feel like its a huge improvement from where we were before the Fenzi class. Already trying to figure out what to take next! Elrohwen, did you take precision heeling? I was thinking about taking it so I know all of her foundation stuff even though we are past that level. Also wanted to take obedience skillbuilding 1. Also, Denise is coming here in April for a 2 day seminar, all the working spots are full but I'm pretty sure I'm going to go audit it. I'm gonna go broke....

Oh, and I really like MrsBoats cards! I got an obedience pack, they are really helpful for keeping me on track and getting through everything.


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## elrohwen

We started with precision heeling because I really had zero precision (though at the time I thought our heeling was ok) . It was the only class we've done at gold and was so awesome. Our first video was ridiculously bad, but I think we really got the hang of things by the end. The things that we learned in that class are some of his most favorite things to work on, so just judging by that it was a success. You can see my videos on YouTube if you follow me. I think this is the first really awful video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hlZMFj_oLc

And here is where we ended up after a couple weeks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpVkmfPKzFg

We took heeling games too, but only at Bronze I think. I didn't get nearly as much out of silver or bronze level classes, so I'm glad I took the foundational class at gold. I like the heeling games, but so far I haven't been able to apply them so much because they distract him from actually heeling. The more I get to know him, the more I realize he's very happy to do anything when he's confident about it, but when he's not his motivation lags. So adding in games that he only half understands just made him a bit more confusted. Once he's even more solid on actual heeling I think I'll add games back in.

I should get a video of us heeling now. I want to get one of LLW anyway (for my other thread about dealing with him when he's insane) and I should try some heeling too. Too bad it's going to be dark out next week after daylight saving falls back. Blech. I don't have anywhere to train indoors at my new apartment, so it will have to wait for weekends when I'm at home.

I really need the Rally cards I think. Obedience stuff for me is more intuitive and I remember what to practice, but rally signs are different. I think it's really that I need to practice seeing the sign and knowing exactly what to do, vs actually training the dog to do any of them. Haha. The last time we were in a rally class I stopped at every third sign and had to stare at it blankly for a second before I remembered what to do. That's more than enough time for Watson to decide that I'm boring and flake out.

Trainingjunkie, your video of Mahto (sp?) is amazing. I can't believe you took a dog with no obedience foundations to that in just a couple months. Can I ship Watson to you?


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## trainingjunkie

HA! No!!!! 

Mahto is a pretty special guy. It's not me, it's the dog. He was born to work. He does it for the joy of it. He does it for love. I take no credit at all, although I know for sure that the Fenzi stuff has helped me train much, much smarter. He is one of those rare dogs that is just as good at a show as he is in the back yard. Without real proofing or prep. What a bit of good fortune. So grateful that he landed with me. He is better than I deserved.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> HA! No!!!!
> 
> Mahto is a pretty special guy. It's not me, it's the dog. He was born to work. He does it for the joy of it. He does it for love. I take no credit at all, although I know for sure that the Fenzi stuff has helped me train much, much smarter. He is one of those rare dogs that is just as good at a show as he is in the back yard. Without real proofing or prep. What a bit of good fortune. So grateful that he landed with me. He is better than I deserved.


So you're saying you don't want Watson? But he's so cute!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6zxb528PhQ

Oh wait, just found this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFWjMo_46v0

So you're saying that's not an OTCH dog in the making? rofl


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## trainingjunkie

He is totally hilarious and funny as can be! And there sure could be an OTCH dog in there!

But I think I'll stick with my boy! He's got his own seriously loose screws and he sure isn't half as beautiful as Watson, but I think I can dance with him! Plus, Ky loves him!


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## MrsBoats

> I think I need MrsBoats TrainEm Tasks cards for Christmas. I need to work on my own footwork for the signs so I don't slow down and give him an excuse to check out.


You need rally stuff?? I got lots of rally stuff...and I saw you saw all of my rally stuff tonight. LOL 



kadylady said:


> Oh, and I really like MrsBoats cards! I got an obedience pack, they are really helpful for keeping me on track and getting through everything.


Awwwww....shucks. I'm glad you like them and they help!


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> He is totally hilarious and funny as can be! And there sure could be an OTCH dog in there!
> 
> But I think I'll stick with my boy! He's got his own seriously loose screws and he sure isn't half as beautiful as Watson, but I think I can dance with him! Plus, Ky loves him!


Your whippets are beautiful! I really never thought of them as particularly trainable or hard working dogs until I learned about yours. Not that I thought anything negative about them, I just had no experience with them at all other than seeing pictures. They seem like very cool dogs.



MrsBoats said:


> You need rally stuff?? I got lots of rally stuff...and I saw you saw all of my rally stuff tonight. LOL


Haha. You can see who is viewing stuff on your Etsy shop?


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## MrsBoats

I can see who favorites stuff...I can see traffic but it's not broken down by users.


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## kadylady

Well....Luke's heeling was not as good as I was hoping for, but Zoey's was great! I was the first of two in the Excellent A class and I got him out as the B class was receiving their ribbons, I try not to get him out too early because he fades quickly. Well then the judge starts going over everyone's scores with them and I had him out way too soon and too long. Should have just put him away,even if just for a minute. We struggled in the beginning to connect, had a really good middle then struggled at the back 3 steps sign (which never happens, he's always good at the back) and then I goofed a bit on the double about turn. We scored an 82, got our 1st Excellent leg. I think the majority of our disconnect was due to having him out too soon, won't make that mistake again. He was still my happy boy though!






Zoey on the other hand, did really great. Slight disconnect in the beginning, but some really great moments of heeling. When we come back past the jump and heel that straight line away from the camera and then the right turn into the serpentine (starts at about 1:00)...awesome! That's what I've been striving for. That pretty, head up heeling. Luke did his best heeling in that same section. Zoey scored a 95 and was just shy of the placings in a big Advanced B class, her first time in Advanced! First time Zoey has scored higher than Luke! lol


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## trainingjunkie

Congratulations! Good for you! Nice runs!


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## petpeeve

trainingjunkie said:


> Congratulations! Good for you! Nice runs!


Echoing this.


On a different note, has anyone heard of the new AKC OB rule changes? http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/obedience/2014_Post_2nd_OAC.pdf 
.. thoughts? likes? dislikes? additional info? (ie: rally changes, if any)

I haven't been able to locate anything online for the upcoming CKC rule changes, but I talked to a judge/friend of mine last week and she quickly outlined them for me. I think pretty much we're following suit with the AKC OB changes, basically. But I'm not totally sure about that as our conversation was rather brief. Apparently there are some rally changes coming too. A local 'seminar' is being held in December to explain them, I may just have to attend to get the complete 100% lowdown I suppose.


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## trainingjunkie

These AKC suggestions are just proposed changes and have not been adopted. These appear to be the second round suggestions added to a very long list of first round suggestions. No rulings as of yet, so time will tell. It is possible that nothing will change. It is also possible that there will be big changes. I can't wait until we know, either way.


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## kadylady

So I decided to postpone our obedience debut. My entry didn't make it to the mailbox last week and I'm kind of glad. After our rally run Friday and feeling so disconnected with him in the ring I was kind of starting to 2nd guess if we would be ready in a month. And then a holiday party that I'm partially responsible for planning got moved to the weekend of the trial, so I know that I will be distracted by that. And the weekend before the trial is my agility club's biggest trial of the year plus hosting Thanksgiving at my house. So, I'm not feeling confident that we will be as ready as I want to be. So I just entered Rally on Friday. Hoping that we will finish his Excellent title there and then we can really focus on obedience. There's a trial in March that is at the same place we were at this past weekend, so somewhat familiar place, plus I may be able to get up there for some run throughs ahead of time. That will give me plenty of time to get us ready, get in a few run throughs and feel prepared. Plus at least 2 more Fenzi classes  I just want us both to be prepared and confident our first time in the obedience ring.

Partially related question, for those of you that do Rally and Obedience...I was talking with someone at the trial on Friday and she finished her RAE there with her super cute little mix. She was telling me how she got into Rally first and then Obedience, but that she would never start a dog in Rally first again, she would always start a dog in obedience first because in rally you can "get away" with so much and develop so many bad habits that won't fly in obedience. Thoughts? Pros/cons to starting in one vs the other? Does it depend on the dog? The handler? I personally was a newbie and don't think I would ever have had any interest in obedience if I hadn't done rally first. But at the same time I'm finding a lot of things that I'm having to fix or retrain now that I'm preparing for obedience. But is that because I didn't train them "right" to begin with or because of the rally format? Just interesting in thoughts


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## elrohwen

Congrats on your runs! I watched the videos over the weekend but forgot to respond. I'm jealous that even during disconnected moments your dogs still stick with you and come back easily. Haha. It's so hard to get the level of connection at home to transfer over into class or trial situations, but they are always willing to work with you.

I haven't done rally or obedience officially yet, but I don't see how it would be a problem to start in rally as long as you trained for obedience. Personally, I am training for obedience heeling, so no talking, no aids, etc. The goal is to go into rally and run it as if it were obedience, though it will be nice to have the option to fall back on being able to help him out if necessary. It will help me see how ready we are for actual obedience. I think doing rally fist will be far less stressful on both of us.

I know MrsBoats starts her boys in rally and if you watch her videos it looks very much like she is in the obedience ring. No sloppiness there.

So I think it's all about the training. I think most new trainers are probably sloppy by nature (you have to start somewhere), but if you've put a dog or two through obedience you should have a good idea of what you're shooting for and how to hold to that criteria no matter what the sport. If you are traing for obedience level behaviors, I don't see why it would be a problem to go into the rally ring first. Maybe her problem was really that she started in rally and didn't realize that she would need to hold herself and the dog to higher criteria for obedience, but that's not the fault of the rally format itself.


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## trainingjunkie

Rally doesn't ruin obedience unless you train poorly. If a person holds their "obedience" criteria in rally, there will be no problem. However, if you decide to do the minimum amount required to pass in rally, obedience may come as a rude shock!

It's all about HOW you do it, not about rally itself.

Here's my new dog doing rally. I got him at the end of June and just started trialing him. While I am giving him plenty of extra help, this dog is not going to have trouble with his job in obedience: 

Right now, he is learning how to be in the ring and hold his focus on me. These are skills that he will need in obedience. I am certainly giving him extra cues that will have to fade, but the tough stuff, confidence and focus, are coming along nicely. They will carry over.


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## Kyllobernese

I had only done Obedience trials before until last year when I took a six week course in Rally with Lucy, one of my Shih Tzu x Maltese, just to see what it was like before Kris was old enough to do it. Some Obedience people around here look down on Rally but your dog actually has to learn a lot more positions in Rally than in an Obedience trial. I have just concentrated on the Obedience with Kris as there was nowhere this year to do any Rally but I think she will transition over to Rally fairly easily. It is me that has to remember you can talk to them and give them extra signals as I forgot you could when I was doing it with Lucy last year. I think the competing in Agility is a big help in remembering the courses.


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## Miss Bugs

I keep going back and forth on the idea of getting Gem an ERN to do CKC rally and obedience..some of the ridiculous rules that have zero to do with the sports hold me back..like that i would have to buy her a new collar and leash because the ones she has are apparently not to be permitted on the trial premises not because they are corrective(they are not) but because they have conchos on them and decoration is strictly banned...in the ring? Ok fine, but on the trial grounds PERIOD?thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard! Its a silly minor thing but it bugs me enough that i am seriously considering tossing the application forms lol


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## Shep

Trainingjunkie, your dogs are lovely. Great attention, great focus, nice heeling, just lovely. Especially considering that one of them is so new at this!


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## petpeeve

Miss Bugs said:


> ..some of the ridiculous rules that have zero to do with the sports hold me back..like that i would have to buy her a new collar and leash because the ones she has are apparently not to be permitted on the trial premises not because they are corrective(they are not) but because they have conchos on them and decoration is strictly banned...in the ring? Ok fine, but on the trial grounds PERIOD?thats the dumbest thing I've ever heard!


It's not dumb. ALL rules are made to serve a purpose, and governing bodies have to draw a line somewhere. 

If restrictions weren't in place, some people would show up at the trial grounds with their dogs sporting these ..











Personally, I wouldn't deny myself or my dog the enjoyment of competing, just for the sake of spending $15 on an acceptable collar and lead.


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## kadylady

trainingjunkie said:


> It's all about HOW you do it, not about rally itself.


That's was what I was suspecting. I certainly didn't know what I know now when I started rally, which is why I am retraining certain things and finding holes here and there. I can certainly see though how it can be a great stepping stone to obedience and building confidence in the ring. Which is why her comments kind of caught me off guard a little bit.

Great videos trainingjunkie, he looks great!! And I can definitely see what you are talking about, with being able to give him a little extra help but having the foundation there. He has great focus! 



elrohwen said:


> Congrats on your runs! I watched the videos over the weekend but forgot to respond. I'm jealous that even during disconnected moments your dogs still stick with you and come back easily. Haha. It's so hard to get the level of connection at home to transfer over into class or trial situations, but they are always willing to work with you.


Thanks! It felt worse during the run than it looks when I watch the video (typical of course lol). I was surprised by his level of distraction, it was unusual for him and I wasn't prepared for how to deal with it. Again, I know I had him out too early and I think that played a big part and I definitely won't make that mistake again. But yes, he did come back to me and we had some parts that I was really happy with. The sit to front is really hard for him and we've been working on lot of that and he nailed it with a straight front. And he was happy. I chuckle at the end when he is in the sit/stay and his tail doesn't stop once lol


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> I chuckle at the end when he is in the sit/stay and his tail doesn't stop once lol


He is certainly one of the happiest dogs I've seen doing obedience/rally. So cute.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> He is certainly one of the happiest dogs I've seen doing obedience/rally. So cute.


He really does love to just do anything with me. If it means me paying attention solely to him he is so happy. He gets really sad when I get Zoey out to demo something in my classes vs getting him out. I've been trying to use that to my advantage in training. If I really lose his focus or attention (he gets obsessed with sniffing and cleaning up the floor) I put him away and get her out and work with her for a couple minutes, then get him back out and he's so excited to work again and he tries so much harder. Or if I ignore him and just pay attention to her, drives him crazy and he's so ready to work again.


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## MrsBoats

> I know MrsBoats starts her boys in rally and if you watch her videos it looks very much like she is in the obedience ring. No sloppiness there.


The main and only reason I do rally first is to get show ring experience on my dogs before I go into the real obedience ring. Especially with Ocean...I'm looking for a happy and willing attitude over precision since he tends to stress down and worry about the quieter environment that comes with obedience. I was thrilled this weekend that he was all sorts of fired up to work in obedience at run thrus. So, I believe my plan is working.

I will say there is a difference in heeling in both sports. There is "rally heeling" and then there's "obedience heeling." Rally heeling does tend to be a little bit less precise...and I think the handlers become a little more relaxed in cuing a dog than they ever can be in obedience. In obedience...my left hand is glued to my waist. In rally, my hands are all over the place. I handle the guys pretty much exclusively with my upper body while heeling (Eyes, head, shoulders, etc.) I can really guide my dogs through obedience heeling almost like I do with agility. But, in rally...all of that goes out the window because I'm trying to find the signs and read while we're heeling. So, my cueing becomes really erratic to the dogs. There a strong possibility that rally can mess up good obedience heeling. When Lars was was working on his RAE while I was doing rally with O...I saw things starting to turn to crap in his obedience heeling. I ended up trying to wrap up that RAE as fast as I could before I went out of started to go on our UD mission. 

Here's Lars' rally heeling...and I'm all over the place with my handling and cues (UGH):






Here's some obedience heeling...I'm much more deliberate in my handling (but you can't see it.)






(Oh...and I know someone will probably say something about this...the hand twitching on recalls. It's a nervous habit I have...and I know that in B, I'll get hit for it as a second command. I'm now gripping my thighs when Lars and O come into front. I have no idea I'm doing that with my hands while I'm in the ring.  )


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## Miss Bugs

petpeeve said:


> It's not dumb. ALL rules are made to serve a purpose, and governing bodies have to draw a line somewhere.
> 
> If restrictions weren't in place, some people would show up at the trial grounds with their dogs sporting these ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I wouldn't deny myself or my dog the enjoyment of competing, just for the sake of spending $15 on an acceptable collar and lead.


I've been competing in many venues for 14 years, no other venue has such a rule and none of them have issues with people showing up with dogs in spiked collars, so, sorry I don't buy that. her collar is leather with Milan heart Concho's, hardly obtrusive 

its not like I'm missing out on competing, Gem has her CGN, and her CARO CRN-CL, CRNT, CRA-CL, almost has her CRX-CL and CRAT and is training for CRV, and CARO working level. CKC is nothing more then a secondary option for Obedience and ring experience since they opened up to mix breeds


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## Shep

MrsBoats, Lars looks great! Very pretty runs. I know what you mean about the hand twitches as a nervous habit. I have a bad habit of gripping my shirt with my left hand while heeling, so my hand ends up in a fist. Someone told me once that a judge might think it's an extra cue because it might look like I'm trying to fool my dog into thinking I've got food in my hand. I don't think any judge has ever hit me for it or said anything about it, but I don't like it myself when I see it on videos. It looks awkward to me and sometimes it makes my hand cramp. So I'm trying to get rid of it.


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## petpeeve

Miss Bugs said:


> Its a silly minor thing but it bugs me enough that i am seriously considering tossing the application forms lol


You’re right it IS silly. Your stance, that is. I mean it’s not like they’re requiring you to spay your dog, or making the use of ecollars mandatory or anything drastic. It’s a simple rule that states no bling is allowed. If you can’t live up to that, well, I’m pretty sure the CKC won’t feel bad about not receiving your entry. In fact I’m certain they won’t even notice.

Your principles are far more stringent than mine I suppose. I firmly believe some hills just aren’t worth dying on, and my dog’s enjoyment is often the overriding factor in determining which hills are and which aren’t.

Not looking to argue though, honestly. Feel free to march to the beat of your own drum.


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## Miss Bugs

I was referring to it being a silly thing to be annoyed about. Its not like I'm pissed off and trying to make a stand against CKC for dumb rules lol as i said, i already compete is many other venues, I'm not limiting jack, CKC would be NOTHING but practice/ring experience, have zero interest in being serious in anything CKC related, it harms me and my dog and CKC not at all weather bother with an ERN or not. All i said is its a dumb tule that irritates me, nothing more nothing less


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## petpeeve

Shep said:


> I know what you mean about the hand twitches as a nervous habit.


 Me three. Weird. Maybe it's an epidemic, lol.

Seems as though I have a minor, almost imperceptible left hand twitch whenever I walk away form my dog, ie: recall, drop on recall, signal exercise. Once I turn to face the dog and my feet come to a stop, my twitch stops. Kinda like Captain Miller in Saving Private Ryan only less noticeable. I hope .


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## elrohwen

We attended our first rally class in 10 months last night, at a new facility with new trainers.

It was awesome! I am so so proud of Watson. All of the heeling work we did this year has completely paid off and he was fantastic. Ton of focus, beautiful heeling, and he worked very hard. I did have treats in the ring, but I only needed to treat ~3-5 times through the entire course. The last time we were in a class I would've been treating at least every sign. I do need to work on getting the treats out of my hand and back into my pocket. They weren't visual, but there were times when he needed to know that a reward was coming to stay focused. But if that's the main thing we need to work on for the next 6 months, that's not so bad.

My goal was to enter rally novice at the nationals in April, and I wasn't sure if we would be ready, but now I have hope. The instructor was very impressed with his heeling, and made multiple comments on how engaged he was with me, and how great our relationship was. I was very proud. It has taken us so much work to get to this point and there were many times when I didn't think it would be possible.

ETA: Hopefully my mom can come with me next week to take some video. I lured her in with the promise of cute shelties to fawn over. Haha


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## kadylady

Yay Watson!! And you too elrohwen for working so hard on that focus and engagement with him. So glad you are seeing the results of all your hard work with him!


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Yay Watson!! And you too elrohwen for working so hard on that focus and engagement with him. So glad you are seeing the results of all your hard work with him!


Thanks! I totally credit the FDSA. The instructor was so impressed that we could do a full 360 left pivot, but that was something Denise teaches early in the heeling process before ever going straight. I'm definitely a believer in her method of teaching heeling after seeing the results. I think Watson's heeling was better than the little sheltie who was there practicing for her RE title - he just had that pretty head up driving forward heel, right next to me, with nice tight turns and pivots.

And I credit a lot of natural maturity on his part. Haha.


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Thanks! I totally credit the FDSA. The instructor was so impressed that we could do a full 360 left pivot, but that was something Denise teaches early in the heeling process before ever going straight. I'm definitely a believer in her method of teaching heeling after seeing the results. I think Watson's heeling was better than the little sheltie who was there practicing for her RE title - he just had that pretty head up driving forward heel, right next to me, with nice tight turns and pivots.
> 
> And I credit a lot of natural maturity on his part. Haha.


That's awesome! FDSA is killing me right now...there are at least 2 classes that I want to take for pretty much all of the next terms for the foreseeable future! I'm torn for December between Precision Heeling, OB Skillbuilding 1 and Confidence Building. Ugh, who knew it would turn into an addiction! I can probably swing 2 classes at bronze. I've been on the fence about Precision Heeling but I'm really interested in seeing how Denise teaches it from the beginning, even though I'm kind of past that stage with my own dogs. Sounds like such a good foundation though.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> That's awesome! FDSA is killing me right now...there are at least 2 classes that I want to take for pretty much all of the next terms for the foreseeable future! I'm torn for December between Precision Heeling, OB Skillbuilding 1 and Confidence Building. Ugh, who knew it would turn into an addiction! I can probably swing 2 classes at bronze. I've been on the fence about Precision Heeling but I'm really interested in seeing how Denise teaches it from the beginning, even though I'm kind of past that stage with my own dogs. Sounds like such a good foundation though.


When I took PH at Gold, I thought Watson had the foundations of a decent heel. We worked on heeling in classes and occasionally got compliments from our instructor. It wasn't bad. But going through PH changed everything. Before heeling was just something he had to do, and I didn't have strict criteria. Our progress was slow and the heeling was a bit sloppy. Now it's a "trick" and a game that he loves to do, and my criteria is much higher than before. All around it is just so much better than anything we ever would have done on our own or in the classes I've been taking. The only trainers I've met who get that kind of precision do it with a prong collar and leash pressure, but this is so much better. He actually loves to heel now because it combines movement (the dog loves to be moving) and fun tricks like swinging around in a pivot or finish.

I was going to take a break from Fenzi classes, because I just don't have as much time or space to train with my crappy work situation. But now I'm rethinking ...

I want to do foundation jumping, but I definitely won't have the space for that until it warms up outside. I'm also considering something with less training involved, like "Structure and Movement". Or maybe I should just do the Rally classes. Hmmm .... now you have me wanting to sign up for stuff!


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## kadylady

That sounds like exactly what I need to do...turn this boring heeling into a fun game. Definitely taking PH now.



elrohwen said:


> I was going to take a break from Fenzi classes, because I just don't have as much time or space to train with my crappy work situation. But now I'm rethinking ...
> 
> I want to do foundation jumping, but I definitely won't have the space for that until it warms up outside. I'm also considering something with less training involved, like "Structure and Movement". Or maybe I should just do the Rally classes. Hmmm .... now you have me wanting to sign up for stuff!


LOL glad I'm not the only one! 

BTW if you're still thinking Rally task cards MrsBoats has a sale ending Saturday if you haven't seen it yet. I was her 200th customer  I bought the Rally Prep Pack that has all the signs and descriptions and point deductions so I don't have to lug my pdf printout with me. 

Side note about the rally signs... The judge at our Rally trial last week had the descriptions of all the signs in her courses on the back of the course maps. And she bolded the parts of the descriptions that were the most important in terms of did you do the exercise correctly. Example, in any of the "walk around dog" signs, she bolded the part where is says "handler pauses" after you walk around, and pointed out that failing to pause would be a 10 point deduction for not doing the sign correctly. I thought that was really cool of her to put the descriptions on the back of the course maps and also to point that out to people. I was at a show once where people in excellent were barely qualifying because they were getting 10 pt deductions for either missing a pause, or pausing where they shouldn't. Anyway, just wanted to share that because it was the first time I had a judge that did that and thought it was nice.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> That sounds like exactly what I need to do...turn this boring heeling into a fun game. Definitely taking PH now.


It's funny because in PH Denise said many dogs get very bored if you repeat pivots and precision things too much, so you need to add in heeling games (which is the next class). Not Watson! I took heeling games, but at this point in his training it didn't add anything. He finds the pivots and things fun all on their own and will do them over and over and over. He found heeling games stressful because he wasn't as confident in the new "tricks" or how they fit into heeling, so it didn't benefit our heeling. So for us PH was the best class ever. For other dogs heeling games might be the best. 



> BTW if you're still thinking Rally task cards MrsBoats has a sale ending Saturday if you haven't seen it yet. I was her 200th customer  I bought the Rally Prep Pack that has all the signs and descriptions and point deductions so I don't have to lug my pdf printout with me.


Thank you! I didn't realize there was a sale going on. The prep pack was exactly what I was thinking of getting, so I'll order now. I was going to get the regular card pack, but I think the prep pack is going to be more useful.



> Side note about the rally signs... The judge at our Rally trial last week had the descriptions of all the signs in her courses on the back of the course maps.


That's awesome.


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## elrohwen

We had the worst training session last night. I met with a new trainer to work on Watson's weird reactivity/aggression thing with intact males, and I wanted to feel her out for future obedience training since she is well known and has had many successful dogs. She basically spent the whole training session telling me, in as nice a way as possible, that I had huge holes in my training and that I let Watson get away with whatever he wants. 

He wasn't even poorly behaved. He came in pretty nervous, because the training space was in the kennel/daycare that smelled like cleaning products, so he thought it was a bit weird from the start. After the first couple leash corrections (for not sitting immediately) he spent the rest of the time sticking near me and looking sad. I can't deny that her dogs were extremely well trained and don't appear shut down, but I just have to feel like that can't be the only way to get reliable behaviors. Watson did sit when I said sit, and didn't react at all to her young intact male, but he was also unable to focus on me to heel because he was too busy looking around nervously.

I left near tears because I felt like I'd failed on multiple levels. I felt like I must be a failure as a trainer because I let him get away with not paying attention, and I can't deny that's something we've always struggled with. But then I also felt like a failure because of the look of surprise and sadness on his face when I did try to use corrections. I've never seen him so subdued in a training class and so ready to leave.


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## trainingjunkie

I am sorry things didn't go well.

Good training happens when dogs understand the rules of the game. Dogs need to know how to succeed. Until a dog knows how to earn a reward, they will be frustrated by reward-based training. Until a dog knows how to avoid or turn off a correction, a dog will be extra stressed by corrections. Dogs need to know how to navigate the training game.

If your dog is not in the correct emotional state to work, training will fail. This means, if you bring a dog into an environment and the dog is fearful, training can not happen until the dog is no longer afraid. If a dog is highly distracted in the environment, training can not happen until the dog has regained his ability to focus. If a dog is too high or aroused, the dog has to be allowed to calm down before work starts. Deal with the emotional state of the dog FIRST. Then train. 

I have a wonderful little whippet who is still working on environment. She is training at utility level at home but does not yet have her CD. Until she can go to show grounds and feel at ease, we won't enter. We will just keep working on environment. She's 3. It's hard to wait, but pointless not to. Once she is ready, she will advance quickly through the levels. However, right now, a CD is out of reach unless I want a droopy, ugly one.

I think that toggling between reward and correction can be pretty hard on dogs unless you have thoughtfully laid a foundation for both systems. This is doubly true if a dog is environmentally stressed and extra sensitized to everything happening around and to him. If corrections are going to be part of your training picture, you should add them thoughtfully in places where your dog is comfortable and able to learn.

Don't freak out. Watson will be just fine. Shake this off and move on. He had already forgotten all about it. But before moving forward, you might want to pick your method. If balanced training is your path, build the foundation at home so the rules are very clear. That will help you avoid the strong reaction that he had last night.


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## elrohwen

I didn't go into the training session with the intention of switching to that style of training (which seemed more correction heavy than balanced, but maybe that was just my impression). I contacted this trainer because I got a personal recommendation, but I didn't know much going in except that she has worked with a well known balanced/corrections trainer for years (which I guess was my first clue). I was more interested in techniques to deal with his barking at intact dogs, since we've hit a plateau there.

I don't necessarily have a problem with some corrections, especially in situations that involve safety. But I was so uncomfortable using corrections on him because he was too distracted by a new place to sit immediately when I told him to sit. Apparently he's a softer dog than I thought, because a couple well timed corrections pretty much shut him down for the night.

It was especially hard to go in and be criticized for a dog who won't sit or focus during heel, when last week we rocked it and got so many compliments on our engagement and relationship. He went from a confident happy pushy engaged dog, to a shut dog sad dog who lagged behind and looked unsure.

I guess I feel like she let us down too. She seemed frustrated at my lack of ability to use corrections appropriately (timing, strength, etc). And she seemed frustrated about the way I had trained him. She wasn't mean, but she didn't build us up or really work with the foundation we had. She understood that my training style was not the same as hers, but seemed at a loss for how to work with it or even respect it much. I guess that's what happens when two very different training styles meet.

It's hard to find trainers in new places! I think that's what I've learned the most. No matter how much experience someone has or how many OTCH points they have put on their dogs, doesn't mean that they are right for us.


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## trainingjunkie

Finding new trainers is so, so hard. I have called trainers and talked with them for extended conversations only to walk into their training center and walk out without opening my training bag. It's really, really hard.

I found my current trainer by watching her compete for several months. After watching how she conducted herself with her dogs and her students, I found the courage to ask her if she would be willing to take us on. It was a game-changer for us. But it's hard. People will say one thing and do another. And very often, people down-play or up-play things that are important. It may not even be intentional.

I am so sorry for your experience. And you're right; OTCH points don't necessarily mean that a trainer is right for you. When I was training for a CDX with my first dog, I walked away from the AKC high point handler of that year (she is INCREDIBLE) in tears because she mocked me so badly over an unwillingness to ear pinch. I was lucky. A judge and a student of that trainer followed me out and told me that my dog's effort and enthusiasm were beautiful. That well-timed kind word from that unlikely source meant so much to me. I found another way to train. And the next time I walked into a new trainer's building, I announced that my dog would retrieve through the fires of hell and would never, ever not retrieve and that I wasn't ever going to discuss and ear pinch. My new trainer, who totally believes in ear pinches, said that was fine and let me train without one.

It's hard. I wish it wasn't. Hang in there.


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## MrsBoats

trainingjunkie said:


> I am sorry things didn't go well.
> 
> Good training happens when dogs understand the rules of the game. Dogs need to know how to succeed. Until a dog knows how to earn a reward, they will be frustrated by reward-based training. Until a dog knows how to avoid or turn off a correction, a dog will be extra stressed by corrections. Dogs need to know how to navigate the training game.
> 
> If your dog is not in the correct emotional state to work, training will fail. This means, if you bring a dog into an environment and the dog is fearful, training can not happen until the dog is no longer afraid. If a dog is highly distracted in the environment, training can not happen until the dog has regained his ability to focus. If a dog is too high or aroused, the dog has to be allowed to calm down before work starts. Deal with the emotional state of the dog FIRST. Then train.
> 
> I have a wonderful little whippet who is still working on environment. She is training at utility level at home but does not yet have her CD. Until she can go to show grounds and feel at ease, we won't enter. We will just keep working on environment. She's 3. It's hard to wait, but pointless not to. Once she is ready, she will advance quickly through the levels. However, right now, a CD is out of reach unless I want a droopy, ugly one.
> 
> I think that toggling between reward and correction can be pretty hard on dogs unless you have thoughtfully laid a foundation for both systems. This is doubly true if a dog is environmentally stressed and extra sensitized to everything happening around and to him. If corrections are going to be part of your training picture, you should add them thoughtfully in places where your dog is comfortable and able to learn.
> 
> Don't freak out. Watson will be just fine. Shake this off and move on. He had already forgotten all about it. But before moving forward, you might want to pick your method. If balanced training is your path, build the foundation at home so the rules are very clear. That will help you avoid the strong reaction that he had last night.


Best. Post. Ever.


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## elrohwen

One thing she said that stuck with me. She said that I was helping him too much because I wanted him to succeed. 

Is that a bad thing? Sure, I see how repeating commads or helping him too much isn't going to make him reliable or responsible for his actions, but is it so bad to want him to be successful when we're working together? I'm not claiming to be a particularly good trainer, and we have issues, but at the end of the day I want him to have fun and feel successful and confident.

I felt like her whole method was about setting him up to fail (asking for a sit or heel when he was distracted and unsure) and then correcting. And if you correct with the right timing and intensity, the dog won't make that mistake again. I can see how that will work, and obviously it's successful, but it just doesn't fit with my personality and how I want to interact with my dog.

It was eye opening for me, that's for sure. We did a seminar in June with trainers who put prongs on every dog, and use a few aversive techniques, but overall I would say they were 80% positive and I was comfortable with almost everything they did. Watson did so well in that seminar. I think this trainer was just too far in the direction of correction/compulsion for what I'm comfortable with.


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## trainingjunkie

I think you can help a dog too much for too long. For instance, if you want eye contact with heeling, it is a mistake to babble at them for too long because soon, they will depend on the sound of your voice and not learn to offer eye contact independently. However, you can set them up for success by changing where you train, how long you train, and how you reward. So, you are always "helping" the dog, but you are also allowing them to make choices without micro-management.

It's a balancing act, any way you slice it. Always will be. For competition handlers, the end goal is a dog who works independent of handler cues but with committed handler connection. Kind of a fascinating contradiction. And at the higher levels, the dog must toggle between handler focus and task focus over and over again while maintaining an independent connection. I think that's what makes the sport SO MUCH FUN. 

Hang in there! It will come together.


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## elrohwen

Yes, I probably do come down on the side of helping him too much for too long, at least as far as attention goes. Raising criteria appropriately is always something I have to think hard about, because I'm new at this and he has a low frustration tolerance for poor training. Haha. It's easy to get stuck in the rut of doing the same thing over and over and not making it more challenging.

She did ask me a couple times what I did if he was distracted or ignored a cue, and it was hard to figure out what to tell her because it's something I struggle with too. My final answer was that I stop training and either reset, or put him away, or come up with a new way to approach it so that we are successful (dealing with his distraction or whatever the issue is). I don't think she found that satisfying though.


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## Shep

It sounds like Watson was just stressed out by his environment, and then got confused and worried when he was corrected for it. My young dog Scot has huge problems concentrating in a strange place. Correcting him for it accomplishes nothing, although I confess I've been aggravated enough to do it sometimes. He is way too distracted -- not worried, usually, just excited by new surroundings and above all, DOGS -- to give me any decent attention until he's calmed down. At the last show & go we went to, he stayed in a covered crate for about two hours before he could work. Even then, the sight of a dog running in the next ring caused him to lose focus during heeling.

Remember that you know your dog better than anyone. The trainer you went to may be wonderful, and may know far more about dog training in general, but she doesn't know your dog at all. If she tells you to correct your dog when he's confused, she's wrong. Corrections can work beautifully with a dog who just thinks working is optional and can't be bothered to do it. But a dog who is stressed, fearful, overwhelmed, or just confused needs help, not leash pops. The trainer may know this perfectly well (if she's as good as you say, she no doubt does), but just be reading your dog wrong because she doesn't know him. This has happened to me more times than I can count, because it's really hard to pay for a lesson with an accomplished person and then not do what she wants you to do. I've ended up stressing my dogs out because I was listening to someone who didn't know them like I did.

As Trainingjunkie said, Watson has undoubtedly forgotten all about this already. All you can do is move on, and give him time to get comfortable in different environments. I don't mean baby him, but stay calm and help him do as much as he can do; then ease off on helping and start requiring. When you notice improvement, ask for more. Take it slowly, in gentle stages. He will get there.


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## elrohwen

Shep said:


> Remember that you know your dog better than anyone. The trainer you went to may be wonderful, and may know far more about dog training in general, but she doesn't know your dog at all. If she tells you to correct your dog when he's confused, she's wrong. Corrections can work beautifully with a dog who just thinks working is optional and can't be bothered to do it. But a dog who is stressed, fearful, overwhelmed, or just confused needs help, not leash pops. The trainer may know this perfectly well (if she's as good as you say, she no doubt does), but just be reading your dog wrong because she doesn't know him. This has happened to me more times than I can count, because it's really hard to pay for a lesson with an accomplished person and then not do what she wants you to do. I've ended up stressing my dogs out because I was listening to someone who didn't know them like I did.
> 
> As Trainingjunkie said, Watson has undoubtedly forgotten all about this already. All you can do is move on, and give him time to get comfortable in different environments. I don't mean baby him, but stay calm and help him do as much as he can do; then ease off on helping and start requiring. When you notice improvement, ask for more. Take it slowly, in gentle stages. He will get there.


Thank you so much for this post! So many things you said resonated. Watson is easily distracted in new environments and especially by other dogs. This case was strange because he was actually nervous about the new environment, which isn't typical. But it's always been my instinct to just walk him around or let him chill out until he's able to focus on me, not to demand focus before he's ready. If we have to work on the distraction issues first, that's what I try to do.

I think it's likely that she read him wrong (and he was not acting normal to start with, which I told her repeatedly). He usually storms into a training facility already arouse and over the top, not slinking around with his tail tucked. I also think that she assumed I already trained in her style because he had a prong collar on. I only use the prong collar as a safety net to keep control of him in stimulating environments (he is strong), but I don't really use it for corrections and try very hard not to need it at all. So I don't think she knew what to do with me, and I wanted to do what she said because I try to keep an open mind, but it just did not go well. Blah.

I'm sure Watson is fine. I feel bad that we wasted time and money and I still didn't get an answer about the dog reactivity issue which was the whole point. I'm excited to go back to Rally on Wednesday and work on being happy and fun again. I saw a ton of improvement from him in focus and commitment to work compared to the last time we were in an obedience class, so I hope we can keep that up.


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## parus

I'd wonder whether part of the dog's attitude and response was him picking up on YOU feeling nervous, chastened, discouraged, etc. The level of correction you're describing really doesn't sound like enough to shut down an otherwise robust dog for that length of time.


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## elrohwen

parus said:


> I'd wonder whether part of the dog's attitude and response was him picking up on YOU feeling nervous, chastened, discouraged, etc. The level of correction you're describing really doesn't sound like enough to shut down an otherwise robust dog for that length of time.


Fair point. I don't train with corrections (at least not as a general rule for minor things, like a sit) and my timing is horrible. It's like handing a clicker to someone who has never done it before and asking them to clicker train their dog for an hour. I'm sure he picked up on the fact that I didn't know what I was doing and was very discouraged by the whole thing. I didn't really want to do things her way, and even when I gave it my best shot I did it all wrong.

As far as his reaction goes, he was pretty shut down for the entire 1-1.5 hour session after the first good correction. Not that he was cowering the entire time, but he was laying at my feet, not offering to work, avoiding looking at the other dog, actively avoiding the trainer (superstitious behavior, since she never touched his leash), and trying to leave the training area if we walked near the door. Just in general not a happy dog. For a dog who is typically wild and always having a good time, and usually begging to work with me in classes, it was hard to watch. If anything he was actually being very "good" and anyone walking into the room would probably think he was very well behaved and calm, but that's not what I saw.


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## Shep

parus said:


> I'd wonder whether part of the dog's attitude and response was him picking up on YOU feeling nervous, chastened, discouraged, etc. The level of correction you're describing really doesn't sound like enough to shut down an otherwise robust dog for that length of time.


This is a good point. Dogs appreciate it when their handlers are clearly feeling confident and in charge of the situation. They get confused when this isn't the case. I've had experiences in classes and in private lessons where I noticed my dog was losing attitude, and it was always when I was tentative, unsure of what I was doing, trying to do what the trainer said even if I didn't really understand it, etc. This isn't the kind of attitude a confident leader should be projecting, and dogs are bound to wonder, "What happened? Where'd my boss go?"


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## trainingjunkie

Shep said:


> This is a good point. Dogs appreciate it when their handlers are clearly feeling confident and in charge of the situation. They get confused when this isn't the case. I've had experiences in classes and in private lessons where I noticed my dog was losing attitude, and it was always when I was tentative, unsure of what I was doing, trying to do what the trainer said even if I didn't really understand it, etc. This isn't the kind of attitude a confident leader should be projecting, and dogs are bound to wonder, "What happened? Where'd my boss go?"


A couple of weeks ago, I was taking an agility lesson and working on something I didn't like and didn't really understand. My dog had been doing beautifully up until that point, but as soon as I was tense, he started to shrink and worry right along with me. I stopped and told my coach that I needed a minute. I told her I hated what we were doing, I didn't understand it, and I thought it was all stupid. Then I had her show me again and kept working. The minute I cleared the air and voiced my frustration, my dog came back happy and we worked through the challenge, but when I was masking my feelings, I put my dog in conflict.

Clearing the air helped both my dog and I. Trying to fake my feelings was a giant waste of energy and it didn't fool my dog for a second. As always, my coach was right and I needed to understand the new handling skill. Being transparent helped everyone involved.

I can't imagine working with someone who made me feel bad anymore. Life is too short.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I can't imagine working with someone who made me feel bad anymore. Life is too short.


Yes, I love this. Totally agree.

I miss my agility teacher at my old facility. She must have been a kindergarten teacher in another life because she was the most positive and kind trainer I've worked with. She never made anyone feel stupid (even when we did silly things like mixing up our right and left for the 100th time), and was always full of praise for us and the dogs, even when we were a mess. 

To be fair, the trainer last night wasn't trying to make me feel bad, and she could tell that I was uncomfortable. It was more the attitude of "Well, you've kind screwed up a lot of the basics, and if you want to keep doing positive training then fine, but you're not going to get anywhere until you do it like this". I know I'm sensitive, but that was discouraging. Especially considering I went there for an aggressive/reactivity thing, and was basically told all of my training so far had a poor foundation. I dunno, my dog didn't even bark at a single dog all night (not even an intact male playing tug a few feet away), so I can't be doing things too terribly. It seemed a bit harsh for a new client. I need to be handled gently at first. Haha


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## parus

elrohwen said:


> ...actively avoiding the trainer (superstitious behavior, since she never touched his leash)


See, this adds to why I suspect his reaction was, in significant portion, based upon your reaction - you were the one chastised by the trainer, not him.


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## elrohwen

parus said:


> See, this adds to why I suspect his reaction was, in significant portion, based upon your reaction - you were the one chastised by the trainer, not him.


That is quite possible. His reaction to her started after the first correction and got better as we went on, though I got less confident. Even she said that he associated her with the correction, so I'm not sure. It's very possible he reads me better than I give him credit for though.

He is a weirdly sensitive dog though. He's tough as nails until he's not, and then he melts. lol I've had a couple trainers comment that he seems like the most confident and outgoing dog in the room, until something unsettles him and then he's just done.


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## petpeeve

If it were me I'd have a contingency plan in place for next time out with the dog, just in case. I wouldn't fret about it or over-think it, but I'd still have a plan to fall back on. I'm not convinced that 'he'll be just fine'. It sounds as though it may have left a mark on your dog's psyche, the depth of which has yet to be determined.

Sorry. Not trying to add insult to injury here, just genuinely concerned. And I'd hate to see you fall further than you already have.


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## elrohwen

petpeeve said:


> If it were me I'd have a contingency plan in place for next time out with the dog, just in case. I wouldn't fret about it or over-think it, but I'd still have a plan to fall back on. I'm not convinced that 'he'll be just fine'. It sounds as though it may have left a mark on your dog's psyche, the depth of which has yet to be determined.
> 
> Sorry. Not trying to add insult to injury here, just genuinely concerned. And I'd hate to see you fall further than you already have.


Wow, really? I mean, I'm not an expert, but I don't know that a couple leash pops is going to damage his psyche long term. He was fine last night when we got home, and my parents took him out today and told me he well behaved and happy on his walk. We're going to rally class tomorrow night (a work at our own pace type class, where I can do whatever I want with him) and I plan to just keep things super positive and fun and see how it goes. He had a blast last week.

I'm sure he wouldn't be thrilled to go back in that facility or meet that trainer, but I don't plan on that anyway.


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## CptJack

Given the number of times I have inadvertently physically hurt or scared my dogs via stepping on paws, tripping over them, 'kicking' them accidentally, closing doors on tails, dropping pans, breaking glasses, yelling in frustration and the like without damaging their psyches (And I have some SOFT freaking dogs.), I am relatively confident Watson hasn't been scarred for life.


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## elrohwen

CptJack said:


> Given the number of times I have inadvertently physically hurt or scared my dogs via stepping on paws, tripping over them, 'kicking' them accidentally, closing doors on tails, dropping pans, breaking glasses, yelling in frustration and the like without damaging their psyches, I am relatively confident Watson hasn't been scarred for life.
> 
> And I have some SOFT freaking dogs.


I was just thinking, if we're talking psychological damage, I think two training classes involving the teeter is probably the most psychologically damaging thing in his opinion. I spent the whole class shoving cookies at him and standing as far away as possible, but he thought that was awful. He also shut down at the vet this weekend as soon as the exam started, but he was all over the vet mugging for pets and treats as soon as the exam was over. He's a really dramatic dog. I'm sure he'll be fine.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> I was just thinking, if we're talking psychological damage, I think two training classes involving the teeter is probably the most psychologically damaging thing in his opinion, though I spent the whole class shoving cookies at him and standing as far away as possible. He was more afraid of that than he ever was in the training session.


I think most psychologically damaging for my dogs was that time a cabinet fell off my kitchen wall, full of glasses, came down on top of my head. I screamed, cursed, yelled, bled, tripped over Jack (only dog at the time). The dishes broke everywhere, and I'm 95% sure he got hit with flying broken glass. Took him about two days to voluntarily walk through the kitchen and all of 20 minutes to get over being afraid of/trying to appease me. 

And this is Jack. Jack is the softest dog I've ever known and shuts down crazy easily. 

I outright stepped on Kylie in agility - not a paw or tail but like middle of her back - then of course I fell over her to avoid breaking her little self. She was wary of being under my feet for like the next, I don't know, 2 runs? 

Also not an expert but my observation leads me to believe that dog psyches aren't made of glass.


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## MrsBoats

Most dogs psyches aren't made of glass. And if the dog does have a psyche that will shatter under the least bit of stress, competitive obedience is going to be one tough row to hoe for you and your dog. I'm not going to add much to the discussion here because there has been some great comments. But I will say, I think the trend of helicopter parenting has permeated dog training too. Children of helicopter parents can have decreased confidence, undeveloped coping and or life skills, or anxiety. I strongly feel the same can happen to our dogs when we become the helicopter handler/owner. If we never let them be wrong...the second our input that they rely on stops, the dog falls apart. We have to be able to let our dog make choices in their behavior...and then we must react appropriately and fairly to their choice. 

Anyway...I'm going to change the subject to Ocean and his successful APDT Rally weekend! He earned his Rally Level 1 title with an Award of Excellence! His scores were 208, 209, and another 209. He was such a good boy and worked well in a very quiet environment which can be challenging for him. I have video of all of his runs!! 

Here's Saturday's run (208 out of 210 - 2nd place):






Sunday's first run (209 out of 210 - first place): 






Sunday's second run (209 out of 210 - first place):






I was so pleased with his confidence, attitude, and enthusiasm. He's getting more confident the more he's getting into the obedience/rally ring. I'm going to keep going along like this and I think that Mr. O will be an obedience dog and an agility dog some day!  Oh yeah...and Sunday was Ocean's 3rd birthday!! Happy Birthday Bug!


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## petpeeve

elrohwen said:


> Wow, really? I mean, I'm not an expert, but I don't know that a couple leash pops is going to damage his psyche long term.


 Well ... 'maybe'. That's all I was saying, to forewarn you of that _possibility_ no matter how small it may be.

Other posters were generally stating "he'd be alright" and I'm not sure what they were basing that assumption on. Nothing that I could see anyway. And I was merely presenting the alternative that there could be collateral damage, and that it would be wise to prepare for it even it doesn't materialize. 

Some of your comments that I considered ... 

- We had the worst training session last night.
- After the first couple leash corrections (for not sitting immediately) he spent the rest of the time sticking near me and looking sad.
- he was also unable to focus on me to heel because he was too busy looking around nervously.
- *I've never seen him so subdued in a training class and so ready to leave. *
- *Apparently he's a softer dog than I thought, because a couple well timed corrections pretty much shut him down for the night.*
- He went from a confident happy pushy engaged dog, to a shut dog sad dog who lagged behind and looked unsure.
- slinking around with his tail tucked.
- *he was pretty shut down for the entire 1-1.5 hour session after the first good correction.*
- *trying to leave the training area if we walked near the door.*
- He is a weirdly sensitive dog though.
- He's tough as nails until he's not, and then he melts.
- something unsettles him and then he's just done.

(the more salient points, in my opinion, in bold)

Again, all I was saying was that without awareness of the possibility, that it could easily become a much bigger hole to dig out of. Many a trainer has unwittingly ruined a good competition dog by inappropriately correcting, and then been oblivious to the subtleties of the fallout to boot. Which if recognized and then dealt with accordingly, would have been a much easier 'fix'.

Hope I said that without being accusational or offensive to anyone. I tried, lol. Definitely not trying to rub salt in your wounds, and I'm hopeful you have a good class tonight with no ill-effects carrying over from the other one. Please let us know how it goes.


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## petpeeve

CptJack said:


> Given the number of times I have inadvertently physically hurt or scared my dogs via stepping on paws, tripping over them, 'kicking' them accidentally, closing doors on tails, dropping pans, breaking glasses, yelling in frustration and the like without damaging their psyches (And I have some SOFT freaking dogs.)


mmmm ... not really the same as being tethered to the handler with no escape from the frightful environment .. for an hour and a half. No comparison, imo.


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## elrohwen

I'm probably a helicopter dog trainer. Not that I can't stand to see him upset or make him do things he doesn't want to do, but I want so badly to do things right and not screw him up for sports. So I err on the side of fun and helping him too much. I don't think I do that in "real life" training though. 

Go O! You guys look great. 

It's probably a terrible idea to follow MrsBoats and O, but I have to post a video from tonight. We did the first run on leash, then the next two off leash, and this was the better of the two (though the first wasn't terrible). This is the first time we've ever done obedience off leash other than home and recalls. We've done off leash stuff in agility but it wasn't going well for us because of other dogs in the ring being a huge distraction. So here it is. I'm quite proud of us! There are some zoomies, but instead of sniffing and completely ignoring me he comes back pretty fast and is excited to work again. I was trying not to lure him too much and there were some pretty moments of heeling. Enjoy!


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## elrohwen

And feel free to offer tips for what I should do if he leaves. I wasn't sure how much I should call him back, vs just going and sitting down somewhere or leaving the ring. I want a plan for next week.


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## trainingjunkie

Great stuff MrsBoats! What a worker! Love him! You guys are going to have sooo much fun! Congratulations!

elrohwen: You have a lot of great dog people in your life, so take my opinion for what it's worth. I would not be in any hurry whatsoever to be training off lead anywhere but home. I would keep him leashed and be very mindful of any moment when the leash came into play. When I thought that I wasn't using the leash at all, I would put my regular leash on my dog, plus a lightweight line. I would line up at the start line and take off the main leash and keep the light line. Then, if my dog went to bolt or wander, I would let him, but only within the confines of the leash. I would reward lavishly when my dog re-connected and then continue with work.

At home, I would be doing ring set-ups and practicing leash removals for great rewards until they became second nature. The removal of the leash should perk him up and focus him.

I think that going off-lead too soon invites the check-in/check-out, and personally, I don't want to rehearse that at all. Especially not in a competition ring-like setting.

You two have done some really great stuff! You are going to be wonderful. The great parts are really, really fun to watch. You're going to be a fantastic team! 

I'm going to see if I can find a video of my 3 year old whippet who is struggling in the ring. I think it will show that I am in a similar place right now. She is capable of great work, but she is still SO far from ring-ready.


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## petpeeve

If this is RN, he should be on leash. Was there a reason for being off leash? Being able to manage the environment will go a long way towards preventing any misbehavior. 

I would also heel the dog in to the ring, and heel him all the way out, formally. Once outside the ring, obtain a sit in heel position with eye contact, reward, THEN release him, perhaps to play briefly. He really needs to understand that whenever he is anywhere inside the ring he is totally under your rules for the ENTIRE duration.


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## elrohwen

I really don't know how to approach the off leash thing. If you have a dog who you are pretty sure will check out briefly off leash, do you just not do off leash? How do you make that transition? I can work until he's 100% focused on leash, but how will that translate to off leash? He knows the difference. I get the idea of doing lots of work around taking the leash off, but what if he leaves halfway through when he sees something mildly interesting? (in the only other off leash run, he checked out at completely different spots). The instructors there were the ones who convinced me he was ready for off leash, and were pleased with how he did, so I don't know. 

The most common thing I've had instructors suggest is to just call him back and keep working or keep going along the course myself and praise/reward when he catches back up. Then people online tell me otherwise so I'm not sure what to do. The most effective thing to get him back is to just leave, but that doesn't prevent the running off in the first place. The different methods I hear are basically in conflict with each other, and at this point I'm just confused.

It doesn't help that our training space at home is currently about 15' x 10', so yeah, we're off leash, but it's not the same because he has no where to go.

I want to set up sessions just to work on off leash with our old trainer, but I'm not really sure how to use that time. The one session we had was sort of "choose to heel", where I walked around, and rewarded when he showed up. Once he was consistently keeping up with me, I was trying to lose him. At that point if he checked out I just left and hid in the closet. It seemed to get better through the session, but I'm not sure if there's something better we should be doing. Obviously with that type of activity he's free to check out whenever he wants and check back in when he wants.


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## elrohwen

petpeeve said:


> If this is RN, he should be on leash. Was there a reason for being off leash? Being able to manage the environment will go a long way towards preventing any misbehavior.
> 
> I would also heel the dog in to the ring, and heel him all the way out, formally. Once outside the ring, obtain a sit in heel position with eye contact, reward, THEN release him, perhaps to play briefly. He really needs to understand that whenever he is anywhere inside the ring he is totally under your rules for the ENTIRE duration.


The instructor suggested we try off leash based on the work she saw on lead (others in the class are working off leash as they are past their RN). 

I do like the suggestion to heel into and out of the ring. That would help clarify things.


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## petpeeve

Also, watch for and establish the moment whenever disconnect typically occurs. Say for example if it's at the one minute mark, then only work the dog for 45 seconds, turn and heel to outside the ring, and build up his stamina gradually. Sort of a modified version of *set the dog up in heel at the very beginning of the routine and when the judge says 'are you ready?' say yes, and heel OUT of the ring*. In fact I noticed this is where disconnect occurred in your vid, very early on at the initial set up, so it might be a good place to start from. Build up.


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## elrohwen

petpeeve said:


> Also, watch for and establish the moment whenever disconnect typically occurs. Say for example if it's at the one minute mark, then only work the dog for 45 seconds, turn and heel to outside the ring, and build up his stamina gradually. Sort of a modified version of *set the dog up in heel at the very beginning of the routine and when the judge says 'are you ready?' say yes, and heel OUT of the ring*. In fact I noticed this is where disconnect occurred in your vid, very early on at the initial set up, so it might be a good place to start from. Build up.


Yes, I totally agree with that. That is something I can do - first work on set ups and taking the leash off, then add just a couple signs and quit, and build up from there. 

Other than the set up, disconnects were most common when we heeled towards the edge of the ring. In this video it's as we hit the wall on the opposite side from the camera. In the first run we did it was at the about right turn over on the right side, where he stopped to sniff the crate. I guess it would be a good idea to avoid heeling up to the wall any time we are off leash, and just establish focus in the middle of the ring. Then I can use on leash time to work on focus as we approach the wall.


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## trainingjunkie

I work on leash until I KNOW my dog will stay with me. When the leash is off, reinforcement and fun go WAY up. I pick my off-leash places carefully. If I sense that my dog is going to fail, I call them and leash up. In no way am I saying that I am right or that this is the only way to do things, but that's how I do it.

I admire how hard you are working and how sincere you are about your training. You will get there. One thing I am concerned about for you is the "too many cooks in the kitchen" effect that you are experiencing. I know a lot about this because not too long ago, I was in your place. I had a beautiful female staffybull who was fearful in the ring and I had Gator, who was boiling over. I twisted myself into a pretzel sampling from all of the theories and trainers, blending everything. I created a hot mess for my dogs and myself. When I finally picked a single voice and a single path, I got good traction and moved forward.

Every decent trainer is probably giving you good advice. There are a million ways to move forward. But bouncing from approach to approach may not get you where you want to go in an efficient manner. It's really hard. Good trainers are going to contradict each other not because some are wrong or others are "more" right. It's just that there are many, many ways to get to where you want to go.

Here is an example: Gator launches off of contacts in agility. I have hired 5 trainers to help me with this. One says, do a modified running contact. One said, use heavy physical correction when he misses and sometimes, pull him off the contact zone and punish him for allowing himself to be pulled off. Another said, work the bottom only and reward in position. Another said, build behavior chains and crate at every error. Another said, work a plank, never ever correct or crate, and just work the plank but don't reward on the plank, reward on the release so the release becomes the reward. ALL of these methods would/will work, but I have to dig in and stick with one and not blend them. Any and all blending weakens the effectiveness of every single approach. I have to pick the method I want that I think is best, and then I have to work it and not get distracted by any other methods. Any tour of a different approach will set my training back very, very severely.

It's hard to pick a path when you're lost. I know, because look at my very expensive sampler platter of solutions for my missed/launched contacts. All of my trainers are top shelf. All are highly competent and madly successful. I got to gather opinions and now I have picked a path. No one is wrong.

I am so on your side! Your frustration is something I understand all too well. I wish I could be of more help.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> One thing I am concerned about for you is the "too many cooks in the kitchen" effect that you are experiencing.
> 
> It's hard to pick a path when you're lost.


Ugh, yes! I finally got a handle on the actual heeling part, but the off leash thing is hard. It's easiest to take the advice of the trainers who are right there with me, because obviously they will be able to help me more if I use a method they know and like. But then I get conflicting information and I think I should just do stuff on leash and never let him off ever because it's just a chance to practice bad behavior. I really really wish we had a big fenced yard where I could work off leash by myself, and then transition from there to actual training facilities.

I think my game plan for next week is to work on doing courses on leash and fading rewards. We can also work on removing the leash, giving a lot of treats, and putting it back on and leaving the ring.


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## Shep

One thing you might try is having him wear a tab when he's off leash. This is a short, maybe six- or eight-inch long "leash" (really just a lightweight piece of leather, or even shoe strings) attached to the dog's collar. Make it long enough that you can drape it over his shoulders. When you're heeling off leash and he starts to leave you, at the VERY SECOND he starts to leave you, reach down and grab the tab to keep him with you. The idea is that there's an illusion that he's off leash because he doesn't feel the weight or drag of a leash, but he's actually still under your control. Some people also transition to off leash by tying the leash around their waist or tucking the slack into their pocket. I like the tab myself.

The fewer opportunities he has to realize that he can wander off at will, the better. Prevent it if at all possible.


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## elrohwen

Shep said:


> One thing you might try is having him wear a tab when he's off leash. This is a short, maybe six- or eight-inch long "leash" (really just a lightweight piece of leather, or even shoe strings) attached to the dog's collar. Make it long enough that you can drape it over his shoulders. When you're heeling off leash and he starts to leave you, at the VERY SECOND he starts to leave you, reach down and grab the tab to keep him with you. The idea is that there's an illusion that he's off leash because he doesn't feel the weight or drag of a leash, but he's actually still under your control. Some people also transition to off leash by tying the leash around their waist or tucking the slack into their pocket. I like the tab myself.
> 
> The fewer opportunities he has to realize that he can wander off at will, the better. Prevent it if at all possible.


I do have a tab! I'll bring it with me next time. This has given me some good ideas to try.


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## Shep

The only thing about the tab is make sure it's lightweight so it doesn't feel like a leash. I have one tab that has a huge, heavy clip on it. I have no idea why I got it, as it's much too heavy to give the dog the illusion that he's off leash! I have another, light one with a very small clip, and I like using shoe laces, too.


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## elrohwen

Shep said:


> The only thing about the tab is make sure it's lightweight so it doesn't feel like a leash. I have one tab that has a huge, heavy clip on it. I have no idea why I got it, as it's much too heavy to give the dog the illusion that he's off leash! I have another, light one with a very small clip, and I like using shoe laces, too.


I have some very thin lightweight nylon show leashes without clips that I could tie to his collar. I think they are all 3ft - is that too long? I could cut one shorter.


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## Shep

If you don't mind destroying a show lead, I'd cut it down to about six inches. The tab I use a lot is a piece of a six-foot leather leash which had been chewed and wasn't safe to use on walks anymore, so I cut off the clip end to make the tab. Just turn Watson's collar so you can lay the tab on his shoulders where you can reach it easily.


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## elrohwen

Shep said:


> If you don't mind destroying a show lead, I'd cut it down to about six inches. The tab I use a lot is a piece of a six-foot leather leash which had been chewed and wasn't safe to use on walks anymore, so I cut off the clip end to make the tab. Just turn Watson's collar so you can lay the tab on his shoulders where you can reach it easily.


I have a couple and they are all really cheap, so I don't mind cutting it down. One is too thin to offer much control at a show for a dog his size, but it would be great for this purpose.

I do have a leather tab, ~6", but it is a little heavier and might swing down to his chest. I can try that too though.


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## elrohwen

I'll have to watch the videos tonight when I get home from work, but I wanted to comment on the food thing.

I *think* I'm to the point where food is not creating our heeling at home. It took a long time to get there but recently I feel like we have turned a corner there. But it is still part of the picture in class. So that is my main goal really - the off leash stuff was more an overall goal, especially so we can try agility again. But for this class, from now until April when I'd like to enter for our RN, I want to work on getting food off of me. Watson understands the basic idea, but I will have to be conscious of it and actually work on it specifically for rally.


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## trainingjunkie

Food is a funny thing. For my boys, keeping it on me and keeping the rate of reinforcement high is actually helpful. I will do a few mini-sessions a week with the food off of me and offered remotely, but I don't taper them down at all. My boys don't need the taper. They need to know that sometimes they will be released to the bowl or rewarded later and they need to be comfortable with it, but I can train right up to show day with food on me and not lose my male dogs in the ring. That's part of why I was so surprised that my little female melted down. My boys wouldn't have. They are all so, so different. I sure enjoy playing the performance games with them. I can't imagine life without them.


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## elrohwen

Watson understands food off of me very well for things in daily life. He knows that we can run to the kitchen and get a treat if he does what I want. 

For heeling, I think it's just a matter of showing him that the same thing applies. He won't generalize it on his own, but since he already has the concept I think it will be fairly easy to teach. For him I think it's that the food becomes part of the cue, and I have to decouple that and he's fine.

We've started a really fun game in the house to work on toy drive. I pull out MrsBoats' rally pack and pick a card that we can do, but maybe haven't practiced much. Then I get his ball, do the card, and throw the ball. Just really quick, high energy, and fun, and we don't work on each card more than a couple times. I think he's getting the idea that he can do more than just sit or lie down for the ball which is cool. And he's bringing it back reliably which is the most exciting part.


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## MrsBoats

Shep said:


> One thing you might try is having him wear a tab when he's off leash. This is a short, maybe six- or eight-inch long "leash" (really just a lightweight piece of leather, or even shoe strings) attached to the dog's collar. Make it long enough that you can drape it over his shoulders. When you're heeling off leash and he starts to leave you, at the VERY SECOND he starts to leave you, reach down and grab the tab to keep him with you. The idea is that there's an illusion that he's off leash because he doesn't feel the weight or drag of a leash, but he's actually still under your control. Some people also transition to off leash by tying the leash around their waist or tucking the slack into their pocket. I like the tab myself.
> 
> The fewer opportunities he has to realize that he can wander off at will, the better. Prevent it if at all possible.


I was just going to say this...I know I mentioned helicopter handlers but this is a very good point. When he left (and I was watching the video with no sound) it looked like you stood there and let him do it. You need to get his attention back that second he thinks about leaving. When that happens with my guys, I'll playfully pinch/poke them in the butt and then back up quickly and laughing or saying something really happily to them. I don't let them get far enough from me that they are out of arms reach. In a "fun and exciting way" I'm demanding they stay connected to me. That works for the high drive hell beasts...may not work for all dogs. 

Hey, I'm liking how you're using the rally prep pack! That's my end goal...is for people to be creative in how they use my stuff. Bravo!!


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> I was just going to say this...I know I mentioned helicopter handlers but this is a very good point. When he left (and I was watching the video with no sound) it looked like you stood there and let him do it. You need to get his attention back that second he thinks about leaving. When that happens with my guys, I'll playfully pinch/poke them in the butt and then back up quickly and laughing or saying something really happily to them. I don't let them get far enough from me that they are out of arms reach. In a "fun and exciting way" I'm demanding they stay connected to me. That works for the high drive hell beasts...may not work for all dogs.
> 
> Hey, I'm liking how you're using the rally prep pack! That's my end goal...is for people to be creative in how they use my stuff. Bravo!!


MrsBoats, I don't think it's in that video, but in the other run I tried that and as soon as I touched him he moved away faster. "Can't catch me! Nyah!" So the tap on the shoulder method gave me the opposite of what I wanted and I didn't do it in this run. I think having a leash or tab might be better. 

Or maybe the issue was that I needed to tap him and then move away from him instead of towards him. Moving into him made him move away. I didn't think of that at the time, but now it's really obvious.

Not sure it's obvious in the video, but he can tell from across the room when I am moving towards him (he keeps going) and when I just turn away (he comes back). Butthead. lol

Glad you like my rally idea! Anything that makes training into just "tricks" makes him happy.


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## Finkie_Mom

I make a game out of collar grabs constantly so that if I go to reach for the collar my dogs WANT it rather than running away. Or at least I can call them to me and back up and they will like almost "present" their necks to me so I can grab the collar. Hand targets might prove useful, too, as can some of the Control Unleashed/Recallers games.


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## parus

Yeah, at my class we taught the dogs "touch" as a command (they touch your palm with their nose) from increasing distances. My Cas isn't a wanderer so I didn't have to use it during runs but I can see where it could be more effective than a regular recall.


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## Miss Bugs

Took Gem and Paisley to a CKC Rally fun match tonight lol..ya, don't think i will persue it, it was very odd..some of the signs made no sense at all... like..there was a moving down on coarse..so i did a moving down..umm ya apparently in CKC "moving down" doesn't mean moving down, it means stop, down your dog..then continue.. that's not a moving down folks haha. Mostly its just that all the fun exercises are completely absent,and the fun eexercises they do have are made easy..like the jump, you walk with your dog over the jump.. Gem LOVES the complicated exercises, she lives for them, she puts up with the rest of it for the purpose of being able to run out to a jump or tunnel, and go to the weaves, moving down is like her favorite thing ever.. CKC is changing a bunch of things though so maybe they are adding some more complicated stuff? I dunno, we'll see if they change it to something Gem will actually enjoy. 

The fun match was fun in any case, Gem was overtired and acting like a complete psychopath, we walked to the start line and she just..like..left lol she started running laps, over the jump and back etc.. i stood at the start line and just looked at her waved at her and happily yelled out "...bye!!" Lol she came back and we started and she flew through the air chomping at my nose many many times..nearly knocked me over, took the jump several times over, and when part of the coarse passed the start line where her leash was..she thought "hey why not?" And picked it up and took it with her lol

Paisley has improved a ton, her nerves have gotten sooo much better, she only freaked out slightly a couple of times about the "judge" being too close. She freaked at the jump, but i fully expected that, it was a completely different jump to anything she's ever seen before, and even slight changes in upright objects scare the heck outa her, she has to be carefully introduced to every individual type of jump, even a basic PVC bar jump and a Ready Jump are too different for her to generalize, nevermind a huge completely solid jump lol. Other then that though she did great!I ccrammed her full of treats but thats the point lol


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## parus

In AKC Rally the moving down is an actually moving down (I lost points for stopping at the last competition!) and there are both jumps where the handler moves along side the dog and jumps where the handler sends the dog over.


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## Miss Bugs

Hmm maybe the CKC changes are going to make it more closely match AKC? i couldn't figure out why in the world they would call it a moving down if its actually just a "down" lol, why not just call it what it is? where is the "advanced" or "excellent" in a that :/ in CARO the jump is sent from 6x10 feet away, there was several of us CARO folks at the match, we were all looking around for a send line lol. We got told, nope no distance jump in CKC, you go with your dog! All the CARO folks at the match after trying the CKC and reading the rules had the same reaction as me "what's the point?"


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## petpeeve

The people who were running that fun match obviously didn't know the rules. 



> 27. Moving Down - Forward
> While moving with the dog in heel
> position, the handler commands the
> dog to drop to a down position, as the
> handler pauses next to the dog. Once
> the dog is completely in the down
> position, the handler moves forward
> commanding the dog to heel from the
> down position. (Stationary exercise)





> 34. * Send Over Jump
> Handler Runs By
> While moving with the dog in heel
> position, the handler directs the dog to
> take the jump, as the handler runs by
> the jump. When the dog has completed
> the jump, it is called to heel
> position and the team continues to the
> next exercise.


http://www.bmdcc.ca/Rally Rules.pdf




So it's not a fault of the CKC, it's a fault of the uninformed organizers. Are you sure you guys read the rules?


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## Miss Bugs

Yes, those are the rules we read.. pausing next to the dog ain't a "moving down" and sending dog over jump while handler goes past is still going to the jump with the dog.

A moving down to me is while the dog is in heel position, command the dog to down while handler keeps moving forward then calls the dog to heel. A down and pausing next to the dog is just a down without a halt first.

The only jumps in CARO are distance, the signs take you to a box 6x10 feet from a jump, handler must stay in the box send to dog over the jump and only carry on walking(along a line 6 feet from the jump) after the dog has committed to the jump.


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## trainingjunkie

AKC doesn't add the drop or the send to jump and return to handler until excellent (the third level.) There is a stop/down and a send-handler passes by in novice and advanced (level 1 and 2). By the time you are in excellent, all of the signs from all 3 levels can be used.

Perhaps the signs you would like to see will appear later.


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## Miss Bugs

I was running excellent lol. Gem is just finishing her excellent title and going to Versatility in CARO so i ran her in Excellent for the fun match even though she's never done CKC. I went through all the signs, at the highest level there IS a proper moving down but not a distance jump or anything. They are changing the rules right away though and apperently adding and eliminateing some excercises, so we shall see what the changes are. maybe they are changing it to swing CARO folks their way? Cuz ATM in Canada rally is CARO's domain, few rally folks will even consider CKC and good luck finding a class that teaches it lol


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## trainingjunkie

That's good.

I don't jump venues much because I'm afraid I'll make myself nutty trying to sort out the little details of everyone's signs! I do remember a bunch of people totally flipping out when the AKC made changes a few years ago.

I like rally a lot, but I go through phases where my interest ebbs. I really want to go to the AKC National Invitational this year. Very curious to see what that's like. I really enjoyed watching it on-line last year. 

Hopefully I'll be going with 2 dogs. Hotel is already booked.


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## Miss Bugs

Lol ya a lot of the little things were confusing! Lots of pauses in CKC, like any of the walk around dog things you have to pause at the end before continuing, you don't have to do that in CARO so a lot of us had to really stop and think. The same signs are marked different as well, many of the CARO signs will say "halt, sit, down" for example which is admittingly redundant but I'm used to it, CKC, most of the signs do not have the redundance, the same sign for example just says "halt, down" so many people were walking the coarse going "huh??" Lol. Many signs are the same but in different levels, the schutzhund turn for example is a Novice CKC but Advanced CARO, and the side steps are reversed, in CARO halt side step halt is Novice and moving side step is advanced, but in CKC its the opposite. And proper moving down is excellent in CKC but in CARO its advanced. And one of the CKC signs is almost identical to a CARO one but has a totally different meaning lol the halt turn right one step halt, in CARO the dog moves with you, in CKC the dog is left in a stay, then called to heel after the handler turns and stops.


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## Apricot

elrohwen; I'd try working on the 'start' sign as it's own exercise. :] It seemed like after a few steps he clicked into place, but I think being able to step off the line as a team is really important. I had to do that with Elsie; she didn't realize we're working the whole time we're in the ring; so in class I broke down the 'start' exercise into small pieces and trained it like I would any other behavior. It has the sit, the leash coming off, handing the leash over, sitting and waiting for the forward from the judge, and taking off, and I require eye contact from her during all of those. I hope this isn't unwelcome! :] I've just been exactly there and it's frustrating!


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## Miss Bugs

Ok honest question here.. i am really confused at the point differences between CARO and AKC/CKC rally. I asked here before and didn't really get an answer when i asked curious about the about of high and perfect scores i see people post about because in my almost 3 years now of CARO i have seen some amazing runs but i have NEVER seen a perfect score..ever. now the only explanation I've ever been given is that CARO is out of 200 not 100..but that doesn't make any sense to me.. a Q for CARO is 170+ a Q for the others is 70+...and they work the same you start with 100/200 and lose points, cant lose more then 30 points in either. Logically a 95 in CKC is identical to a 195 in CARO. What made this come up in my head again is that my friend entered the CKC trial this weekend and she did 2 runs, got a 95 and HIC first run and a 92 but lowest in class second run. She said she didn't find the marking any easier but she has never scored anywhere close to the 190's at all in CARO, she's only broken the 180's once..ever..and only just barley. So the concept of scoring in the 190's(90's) and not even placing is baffling to me..IME in CARO that would be a "holy smokes i ROCK!!!!" score lol. Am i just completely daft here and missing something obvious or what's the deal her?


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## trainingjunkie

I can only speak about AKC Rally because all others threaten to confuse me so I ignore them... 

In most AKC events, there are 200 points available and handlers can and do lose 1/2 points. Lots and lots of 1/2 points.

In rally, there are only 100 points available and NO half points. This means that a slight forge or lag would not be scored. A slightly crooked finish would not be scored. Pretty forgiving.

Also, in rally, there seems to be wildly divergent scoring depending on the judge or the region. About a month ago, I did a double trial for RAE legs, which means I had 4 runs. We scored 399 out of a possible 400 (and won 2 high combineds) and I drove home devastated by our poor performance. While the 1/2 points weren't being scored that day, I felt every single one of them. Our runs stunk.

Other times, I have walked off courses happy only to see that we had been nailed for some weird little ticks that usually go unscored.

I love rally, but there are really, really wild variances in how it is judged. That's just part of the game!


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## Miss Bugs

That..actually makes a LOT of sense, i didn't know half points were a thing and that 1/2 deductions would essentially be forgiven.. in CARO those "forgiving" things you mentioned, at least in my region are NOT forgiven, every forge and crooked position is a 2-3 point loss, in novice every double command is a 2-3 point loss, by excellent the first double command is a 2 point loss, every double command thereafter is a 5 point loss. "Loss of flow" is a 2-3 point loss, dog bumping into your leg is a 2-3 point loss per bump etc..


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## Miss Bugs

This is what Gem looks like being a total nutcase lol, you can see glimpses what she is capable of between her humor lol. She DOES have a habit of doing weird things like this on coarse but not normally to this degree, I'm used to her random antics and even i was looking at her like "uuhhh...." 

Gem CKC fun match: http://youtu.be/J4ZAy4voIDk


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## Poly

trainingjunkie said:


> AKC doesn't add the drop or the send to jump and return to handler until excellent (the third level.) There is a stop/down and a send-handler passes by in novice and advanced (level 1 and 2). By the time you are in excellent, all of the signs from all 3 levels can be used.
> 
> Perhaps the signs you would like to see will appear later.


Just to clarify.

No jumps in an AKC Rally Novice course. Jumps don't appear until the Rally Advanced class.

Regarding the "moving down" exercises: The AKC version (Excellent class) *does not allow* the handler to pause while downing the dog. The WCR version (Level 2 - "Moving Down Forward") *requires* the handler and dog to pause before downing the dog.


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## Poly

Miss Bugs said:


> ....A moving down to me is while the dog is in heel position, command the dog to down while handler keeps moving forward then calls the dog to heel. A down and pausing next to the dog is just a down without a halt first...
> .


A "moving down" is precisely what the particular Rally venue describes it to be. Nothing more - nothing less. 

If you are competing in different Rally venues, it is essential that you know the rules of the venues in which you are competing and train the exercises accordingly. If you do an exercise using the 'style' of a different Rally venue - and don't repeat it correctly according to the venue you are in - it may well be at least a substantial point deduction, if not an IP (or an NQ). This isn't just for the "moving down" - it applies to all the exercises which differ between Rally venues. 

This also applies to Obedience as well as to Rally, although the Obedience rules among the different venues do tend to a closer similarity than with Rally. Even so, you should be familiar with the rules of every Obedience venue you are competing in, too. At the very least, you won't have unnecessary surprises and NQs.


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## Miss Bugs

ha, Gem has started acting like a moron in practice! this is good, this means its NOT ring nerves or boredom, its just Gem being a lunatic, and that I can work with much easier lol, I grabbed her collar holding her down and told her to knock it off..she looked at me like "wha??" and then acted like the completely sane dog I know she is occasionally capable of being lol. that dog is capable of great things in the Rally and Obedience rings, she is VERY solidly trained, but put her in a ring and every time she turns into a total lunatic, first I was sure it was ring nerves, later I wasn't so sure I started to question weather some of it was boredom and as she only blew the simpler tasks by making stuff up..but again..ONLY in the ring. throwing me the EXACT same behaviours in a practice? THAT I can work with lol


----------



## Miss Bugs

> A "moving down" is precisely what the particular Rally venue describes it to be. Nothing more - nothing less.
> 
> If you are competing in different Rally venues, it is essential that you know the rules of the venues in which you are competing and train the exercises accordingly. If you do an exercise using the 'style' of a different Rally venue - and don't repeat it correctly according to the venue you are in - it may well be at least a substantial point deduction, if not an IP (or an NQ). This isn't just for the "moving down" - it applies to all the exercises which differ between Rally venues.
> 
> This also applies to Obedience as well as to Rally, although the Obedience rules among the different venues do tend to a closer similarity than with Rally. Even so, you should be familiar with the rules of every Obedience venue you are competing in, too. At the very least, you won't have unnecessary surprises and NQs.


I maintain.. the very words "Moving down" imply down while moving, throw rules out the window, if someone says "pause and down your dog" in the same sentence as "moving down" rules be damned, your gonna be sitting there going "umm..what?" don;t be confusing, just call it what it is.. "down".. lol

that said, as I said, I do not do CKC, the only CKC anything I have ever done was conformation with my Toller. as aside from my Toller I had never owned a CKC eligible dog before and even she was iffy(I showed her as CKC pending) as she was an AKC dog and the clubs were being stupid and refusing to acknowledge one another(AKC refused to fix anything on her paperwork without CKC stuff because she resided in Canada, but CKC refused to do anything without AKC doing it first). they only JUST started accepting mix breeds this year, and only commandeered Border Collies a couple years ago. CKC has simply never really been on my radar given all my dogs were either mutts or BCs lol. 

given the results of the CKC trial my friend attended, I fail to see the point, she said one ladies dog sat down 3 time on the 270 left and didn't even get a single point off..that would have been a DQ in CARO. I enjoy CARO rally, not really interested in a dumbed down version for the sake of extra titles :/ when the revised stuff is posted I will look through it and see if its worth it at that point.


----------



## Poly

Miss Bugs said:


> I maintain.. the very words "Moving down" imply down while moving, throw rules out the window, if someone says "pause and down your dog" in the same sentence as "moving down" rules be damned, your gonna be sitting there going "umm..what?" don;t be confusing, just call it what it is.. "down".. lol
> 
> .


So I guess you really, really want the rally rules changed to copy IPO obedience 

Sort of like this maybe?

Down while heeling

Who knows - maybe that's the next change coming up.


----------



## MrsBoats

Go, Go, Mr. O!! Lookie who earned a spot on Front and Finish's Top 10!! #3 spot goes to a certain little black and tan agility rocket dog!

Front & Finish Rally Advanced A - Working Group ~ Top Ten Breakdown:


1 Destiny's King Of Kool RA 19
R WECKERLY (Great Dane)

2 Supernova Never Enough RN 15
D BOISVERT/G BOISVERT (Doberman Pinscher)

*3 Deerwood's Oh Stars On The Water! RN 14
C LARSON/E LARSON (Rottweiler)*

4 U-Bet Side Bet RN CGC 13
J INGRAM (Boxer)

4 Snowking's Titan Of Winterthur CD RA 13
R KOROTKI/M KOROTKI (Bernese Mountain Dog)

5 Sweetbay's Quincy CD RA 12
J ADLER/E ADLER (Newfoundland


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## trainingjunkie

Is this last year's list? Huge congratulations!


----------



## MrsBoats

I have no idea since I don't have a subscription to Front and Finish (yet.) Lars/Ocean's breeder tagged me in her post about this news this morning.


----------



## Miss Bugs

Poly said:


> So I guess you really, really want the rally rules changed to copy IPO obedience
> 
> Sort of like this maybe?
> 
> Down while heeling
> 
> Who knows - maybe that's the next change coming up.


Yup that is what comes to my mind when i see or hear "moving down" lol. Now it's entirely possible that my desire for this hinges on the fact that Gem has a wicked moving down haha, those who struggle with it probably wouldn't be so thrilled lol CARO has a proper moving down(though its a moving down walk around) but it allows for a slower down, the dog just needs to be all the way down by the time the handler reaches the opposite shoulder, this "saves" a LOT of people who have to walk in the circle bent over the dog trying to get them to lay down without stopping lol. Everytime there is the moving down on coarse Gem's score sheet always says "NICE!!" or "GREAT!!" Beside it because she instantly hits the deck with barely a word, i admittingly love showing it off lol


----------



## trainingjunkie

MrsBoats said:


> I have no idea since I don't have a subscription to Front and Finish (yet.) Lars/Ocean's breeder tagged me in her post about this news this morning.


Must have been for last years! 2014 isn't out yet! Congratulations! Gator was #1 RAE Amstaff and #10 REA terrier!


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## Kyllobernese

On the Video, is that a "moving down" and is that what you do in Caro? I want to take Kris to some Rally trials next year and Caro is the only Rally in our area. Kris does this really well, I can just heel her, say "down" and keep walking. Maybe I should start doing it and walking around her if that is what Caro does.


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## Miss Bugs

Kyllobernese said:


> On the Video, is that a "moving down" and is that what you do in Caro? I want to take Kris to some Rally trials next year and Caro is the only Rally in our area. Kris does this really well, I can just heel her, say "down" and keep walking. Maybe I should start doing it and walking around her if that is what Caro does.


Yes CARO is like the video but you loop straight around the dog instead of going straight then when you get back to heel you keep walking but obviously taking your dog with you


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## MrsBoats

trainingjunkie said:


> Must have been for last years! 2014 isn't out yet! Congratulations! Gator was #1 RAE Amstaff and #10 REA terrier!


Oh...okay! LOL 

Congrats on Gator's making the Top 10 not once, but twice!!


----------



## Kyllobernese

Thanks. There are no Rally classes in our area and the one I went to last year with one of my Shih Tzu x Maltese was about an hours drive each way and was CKC but I wanted to get an idea of what Rally was all about as had not even been to a trial. Will probably go and watch a trial first just to see what they have to do but know a lot of it is like the CKC but there are differences.


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## Miss Bugs

Yes, most of the stuff is similar, going from CKC to CARO shouldn't be too different as a lot of the little things in CKC are not in CARO but you won't be penalized for doing it either. The biggest differences come in advanced and excellent as CARO has a stand for exam and distance excercises, and of coarse the moving down. One biggie is that CKC has a sign that is halt, turn right, call dog to heel, this sign does not exist in CARO but there is a sign that looks the same but its halt, turn right, one step halt..the dog moves with you.


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## petpeeve

MrsBoats and trainingjunkie, congrats to you and yours .. :yo:

Miss Bugs (and others) here is a vid tutorial I found for Caro #44 Moving Down - Walk Around, by Donna Hill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUVtJ2OfG4Y 
You'll see in the vid at about the 56 sec to 1 min point, she does what amounts to the CKC moving down, essentially and just by coincidence I suppose. That's what I believe the CKC is shooting for with their moving down. I don't know what else they could call it officially, maybe "Down - in - Motion", just to differentiate ??? I think some reference to motion is necessary to prevent a halt first. Seems like no matter how they slice it there will be confusion on some level to someone, that's why it's best to know the rules of each different venue as Poly said earlier, clarify any misunderstandings you may have by speaking with actual judges, and practice the required moves first before going to trial or even fun match. Obviously you have to know YOUR job before setting foot in the ring, you at least owe that much to your dog, right? Just my thoughts.


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## Miss Bugs

My understanding is that CKC requires a pause beside the dog as you down them(according to the sign descip and the judge i talked too) this "can" be similar to CARO because CARO does ALLOW a breif pause beside the dog as you down them, but pausing is NOT part of the exercise in CARO , its simply not to be penalized if that makes sense.lol

From talking to the judge(she's a friend of mine, has Tollers as well) she competes CKC and is a CARO judge, its easier to transfer from CKC to CARO then the other way around. CARO judges harder but also gives more leeway in what is acceptable, so if you do the CKC "requirements" in a CARO match you will NOT be penalized even though those aspects are not part of the CARO exercise description.


----------



## Poly

Miss Bugs said:


> My understanding is that CKC requires a pause beside the dog as you down them(according to the sign descip and the judge i talked too) this "can" be similar to CARO because CARO does ALLOW a breif pause beside the dog as you down them, but pausing is NOT part of the exercise in CARO , its simply not to be penalized if that makes sense.lol
> .


Yes it makes sense.

OTOH, the IPO "Down while heeling" does not allow ANY pausing or hesitation. If you study the video, you will see that the handler maintains exactly the same walking speed. Also, walking around a dog is much less challenging to train than continuing in the same direction at the same speed.


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## Miss Bugs

Poly said:


> Yes it makes sense.
> 
> OTOH, the IPO "Down while heeling" does not allow ANY pausing or hesitation. If you study the video, you will see that the handler maintains exactly the same walking speed. Also, walking around a dog is much less challenging to train than continuing in the same direction at the same speed.


Oh i agree lol, i train an IPO moving down, heck its pretty rare that i ever "walk around" when i practice, i just throw regular moving downs into our basic heeling practice, i just expect my dogs to hit the deck and stay there no matter what i am doing till i say otherwise, i train "moving stand" the same way. I know a lot of people take that allowance for a pause and slow down very seriously lol, that kind of drives me crazy, i think its helpful for initial training, but i personally would never be content with just leaving it at that stage. CARO allows me to do a closer proximity to what i consider a proper moving down lol


----------



## Miss Bugs

CARO rally seminar tonight! Well..2 seminars technically, a general rally one and a seminar for the new CARO working levels, I'm excited for that to start taking off, I'm not super keen on going into the C-stream once Gem has her CR-V(which should be soon) plus i can't afford to trial 3 dogs together consistently, so once Gem has her Versatility title i would like to switch her to working level(these are held seperate from regular trials) then i will have just Paisley and my puppy working through regular rally.


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## Miss Bugs

Seminar was great! The regular rally seminar wasn't particularly helpful aside from the odd new rule change, but the changes didn't effect anything i do, just stuff i was taught so i know i can't do those things in the future lol. Otherwise i wasn't able to get any help at all with Gem's main issue of being either a complete nutjob or a zombie with no middle lol

Now pertaining to the moving down discussion.. she did say something different to what i learned and posted here..that a pause beside the dog is not penalized..this is not true apperntly, a breif pause is not an NQ, it is "allowed" in that sense, but any sort of pause will actually cost you 5 points, she said it is meant to be a "true moving down" i dunno if this is something that has changed or what, but the presenter was a high ranking CARO person who is on the committee that writes the rules lol

The working level seminar was great though! Lots of new things to teach, if anyone hasn't heard about it yet, if your in Canada, CARO has a new sport called working level which is a lot of different exercises like barrel racing which is at various distances based on level, so its a barrel race pattern around cones but the handler cannot leave the handler box which is 5, 10, 15 feet from the cones depending on level. Or around the clock which is 8(? I think?) Cones in the circle and you send your dog from a box around specific cones. Distance exercises, stand, sit, down, spin, twist all within specific handler and dog boxes, again distance varies by level, and it has to be 100% silent, hand signals only. There is directed jumping, sending the dog 30 feet away to a dog box then directing them to return to you over a specific jump. Drop on recall, back up away from you various distances(again you in a box, dog must back up on there own, into the dog box, 5,10,15 feet i believe). Directed retreives, scent retrieves etc.. lots of fun stuff!


----------



## Salina

Sookie and I had a great weeked last week. We entered in Rally Advanced, Rally Excellence and Obedience Beginner Novice. And we got first place in each trial. Rally Excellence 97 points, Rally Advanced 100 points and Obedience 193 points. And all that after not practicing for almost 8 month. super proud of my dog


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## Miss Bugs

Good day today! Gem finally got her second Excellent Q! 2nd place with a 187..and we would have scored higher if i could have managed to not bounce my feet around lol i got knocked 8 points for that! Only thng i was disappointed with was her side step, she totally blew her side step..Gem has the most perfect, straightest of the straight sidestep and so solid that i can walk sideways across a feild with her matching me step for step. Her turns got the note "great!!" Her back up 3 steps got a note "V. Nice!" Her moving down got an "awesome!!" Note lol. Full score sheet got a "great team" and "fast!!" Comment( her run was under 2 minutes) 

I ran her advanced team as FEO, our team did great, would've had a 190 except that i didn't see her team mates leash wasn't on yet till i started, oops! She did great again, got "nice" and "great" comments on her food bowls and moving down.

Paisley..my lovely lady! Earned her 3rd Q and her Novice title! I'm very proud of her, and was more then happy to take out of position points when she waggled over to say hi to the judge! Compared to freezing like a deer in the headlights because "omg, that stranger is watching me!!" Instead going "omg! That stranger is over there i wanna say hi!!" Is a faverouble 180 lol

She ran team as well, she did great! No Q because teammate didn't down fully on sit-down-sit


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## Miss Bugs

Nothing today lol, we did 3 runs but 2 were FEO, the one real run was Gem's excellent run..i was so hoping for her title today but nope, she blew the weaves, she actually blew the sign before that, the front-forward left, she tried to to a forward right and i blocked her with my knee then she swung into heel but sat down.. it wasn't a finish.. the judge must not have noticed that that though because she marked it as a pass lol, then she hit the weaves and skipped the second pole! The weaves in rally allow for a LOT of leeway so if she was slower i could have popped her back in but she races through the weaves so i couldn't really do anything about it. Then on the back up 3 steps she swung a little TOO far behind me and i stepped on her... and she got super distracted when a dog suddenly started barking and she wanted to know what was going on that was so exciting lol she didn't break, she just wasn't paying attention to "me". Run was good otherwise lol. Naturally my doofus gave me back her leash when i set it down on the ground at the start, i had to put it on the table lol


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## Miss Bugs

Gem Rally Excellent: http://youtu.be/NspJE9fJGeg

Gems run today


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## Apricot

Elsie got her CDX today! 









First place, 193.5, and this club offered a prize for highest scoring A dog, which we also won. Good dog, Elsie! 

I was very proud of how well she worked and how hard she thought; the dumbbell throw over the high jump was bad, and she was pointed around the jump after picking it up. She almost did that, stopped herself, thought about it, and came over the jump. Best dog.


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## trainingjunkie

Congratulations!!! That's just Super!!!!


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## Kyllobernese

Sounds like the Caro Rally is adding on a lot of things you have to do for Utility Obedience. I think it is great that they are making it more interesting as you Advance. Looking forward to starting Kris in Rally next year as well as Agility.


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## Miss Bugs

Kyllobernese said:


> Sounds like the Caro Rally is adding on a lot of things you have to do for Utility Obedience. I think it is great that they are making it more interesting as you Advance. Looking forward to starting Kris in Rally next year as well as Agility.


Yes! I love it! Gives me something new to strive for with Gem! She's almost through all the main levels only thing after Versatility was C stream which is just advanced/excellent/versatility aiming for 190's or higher, thats not "new" stuff. I don't WANT to turn Gem into an ultra precise dog, thats not who she is lol Gem is a loony tune, thats why people love her lol. Last weekends Saturday judge was playing with Gem on Sunday and people were watching and laughing and commenting "Gem you are a weirdo" the judge was like "yes but she's a great kinda weird!" Lol. The would much rather teach my weirdo new stuff then make her something she isn't  the new working level isn't for Paisley though, i could see doing C stream with HER, but she's very different, she lacks the confidence to do much away from me, she WANTS to be precise and next to me, Gem OTH wants to go do cool stuff over thata way lol. I think Gypsy would enjoy working level too, she's soooo smart but can't stand all the heeling and stuff in the more basic Rally leveld but with working level she can do a proficiency test and skip all the boring stuff lol


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## Kyllobernese

At the group I train with, the other dogs are into Utility training, I am the only one to not compete yet but we do run-throughs for C.D. and the long downs and sits together with tons of distractions. Kris gets a little bored with a lot of heeling and I can tell as she will all of a sudden start play bowing, chewing on her leash just so I will tell her to stop. She loves doing the Agility equipment and I think she will enjoy the Rally rather than the more precise Obedience work. I have been practicing some of the moves I have seen you do with your dogs, like moving down, pivots, etc.


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## Shep

Congratulations, Apricot, to you and Elsie! Great job!


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## kadylady

So I just realized that I never posted our Rally results from our December show! And they were big results too!! 

First weekend in December, double Rally trial, our "home" building.

Luke scored a 98 for his second Excellent A leg and a 93 for his third leg! Excellent title achieved! 

Zoey scored an 86 for her second Advanced B leg and.... a perfect 100 for her third leg and Advanced title!! 

2 new titles!! So proud of these 2! It was a long day and we had been skimping on practice due to the chaos of unplanned new puppy arrival and they really pulled it all together and worked fantastic.



Titles came right before Christmas.


Luke's 98 run
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=880839315292&l=1725658628827647546

Zoey's perfect 100 run
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=880838571782&l=1967931708284433440

Hopefully the facebook links work because apparently I forgot to upload them to youtube and I'm hoping they are still at home on my ipad.


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## Miss Bugs

Ugh..random Rally vent..one of ladies in my training club keeps talking to me like I'm stupid because, when asked, i said im not entering Paisley in any trials for a while. Why? Because she has to compete in Advanced now and she ISN'T READY! I know my dog! I'm not being overly cautious, she is a very fearful dog. Yes she has come a looonng way, but Advanced requires a few things she does not yet have the confidence to handle 1- moving down, she's improved but she is still nervous about going into a low position in a public place..by improved i mean she will actually do it at all, she still lacks confidence when doing so and sure as heck won't do it quickly. 2- send to jump, this involves working away from me? As soon as she is more then 3 feet from me she loses all her confidence and panics..the jump is 10 feet from me. We're working on it, but that 3 feet took time, its going to take more work to get enough confidence instilled in her to work that far from me. 3- stand for exam, 1 year ago she was so afraid of people that if anyone looked at her she collapsed on the ground and pee'd, she is now at the point that she is very happy and loves to run up and greet people, but she is not yet ok with people approaching HER..nevermind people approaching her while i am 6 feet away. I'm not going to force her into a ring with That many stressers for her until i think she can handle it. This woman just keeps rolling her eyes at me and arguing with me!


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## Shep

Scot got the first 2 legs toward his CDX on Saturday. I was very proud of him, as he got good scores and had a happy attitude in the ring. Also, he had had a bit of a freakout at the Friday show & go, and was reluctant to retrieve. So before the show I played tug with him with the dumbbell and managed to get him happy about it again, but I wouldn't have been surprised to see him refuse to retrieve in the ring. He is a very soft and sensitive boy. 

Lo and behold, not only was he absolutely fine in the ring, he even managed to dig the dumbbell out from beyond the ring gates when it rolled too far (don't know why the judge didn't give us a re-throw). I was afraid he was going to pull the gates down, but he got it! I love my boy! 

Our scores were 194 and 197.5, and we got a fourth and a third placement.


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## trainingjunkie

What a super run! And heroism on the ROH! Fishing that out took real courage! 

Congratulations!

Are you ready for Utility?


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## Shep

Thanks! He knows the Utility exercises, but he's going to need some confidence-building before he's ready to do it for real. Luckily we have quite a few matches in this area!


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## kadylady

Congrats Shep! That looked really great!


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## Apricot

That looked really great, Shep!


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## Finkie_Mom

Congrats, Shep!! That was awesome


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## petpeeve

I enjoyed watching . 

*handshake / pawshake* from me to you and Scot, respectively.


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## elrohwen

Shep, that was great! What a good boy for digging the dumbbell out from the ring gates.


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## Shep

Thanks everyone for the congratulations! I think I smiled all weekend!


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## Finkie_Mom

The place where I teach/take classes was doing an Obedience Match so I volunteered to help and got to run Kimma for free before it started. We've never been in a formal obedience class, so this has been on my own. The SFE is the worst because we haven't had the opportunity to practice with other people. She's good with me, DH, and my sister who lives with us hahaha. But strangers I knew would be an issue. Here's a video a friend took. I told the judge that we needed work on the SFE so I stayed close and Kimma got lots of cookies 






Overall I'm super proud of my girl. And I'm glad I got some video. Helps me to see what we need to work on. We might actually trial one day if I can get more SFE practice!!!!


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## elrohwen

Kimma is super cute! I couldn't watch the whole thing at work, but the parts that I did watch looked great.


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## Shep

Kimma looks great!


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## Finkie_Mom

elrohwen said:


> Kimma is super cute! I couldn't watch the whole thing at work, but the parts that I did watch looked great.





Shep said:


> Kimma looks great!


Thank you both! I'm really still shocked she did so well! And of course now I'm trying to figure out where/when I can take formal obedience classes LOL. Not sure if any are going to work with my schedule though :/


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## Kyllobernese

On Feb. 21st we are having a Obedience and Agility Practice Match. I had Kris in the Obedience one last year so I hope she has improved in the last year although she did not do that bad last time, just very distracted with everything going on and although she stayed good in the Long Sit, she got up and walked to me in the Long Down but has a ton of practice on this since then.

I am hoping my sister can video it this year as she will have Ecko, her Rat Terrier, in the Agility part of it and I hope to have Lucy and Remmy in the Agility also.


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## elrohwen

Watson was so happy at rally last night. I wish I had our last run on video. He started fine and we had a decent first run. Then on the second he was so distracted and completely blah for about half the couse. I thought he was tired and bored because there were a lot of dogs in class and a lot of down time in between runs where he either deflates, or wastes his energy trying to make eye contact with the other dogs.

But by the third run he was so up and excited to be working. Some people probably thought he was being bad, since he was grabbing at my hand and the leash, and occasionally barking at me, but I was so happy with his performance. And for being so excited, he was actually fairly accurate except for anticipating a swing finish during fronts and ending up completely crooked. Usually I only get this kind of excitement for work at home where there are no distractions, so I was very pleased. 

I think part his good attitude is that I finally found a toy he will work for in class - the Rip and Tug Lotus Ball (thanks to Laurelin for the recommendation!). The combination of food plus a toy is great for him, especially because he can get the food out on his own. At home he'll work for a variety of tugs, but at class it's hard to get more than a quick tug. I'm really excited to start agility again some day and use the Lotus Ball.

What a good pup! Here's my favorite picture that my dad got of us.


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## elrohwen

I just entered our first ever Rally trial. Ahhh!! March 6th and 7th. I was definitely going to enter at Nationals in April, but I really wanted to find something earlier in case we suck. lol I don't want to totally bomb in front of people I know.

So I found a show just across the river from here. Nice and small, and super fast to get to. I entered confo too, though we'll probably be the only Welshie there, just for practice. Plus I think just playing in the ring when I have food with me will help him be on his game.


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## Shep

Just to bring me down from my high, after sailing through the first two legs of his CDX, Scot NQ'd both days last weekend. The first day he ran around the high jump. The dumbbell landed very close to the jump and to one side, and when he picked it up and turned there was very little room to jump, so he just came around instead. He knew immediately that he'd done something wrong, and became stressed. The next exercise was the broad jump, and when he is stressed, it shows up on that exercise. I was 90% sure he'd try to avoid it, and he did. The good news is he recovered nicely on the next exercise and did a nice retrieve on flat.

The second day he was much happier and had an excellent run -- except he took the dumbbell to the judge on the retrieve over the high jump (he apparently really liked that judge, but I like him too, so I couldn't blame the poor dog! It was Roger Ayres, so if you're looking for a nice judge to show to, he has my recommendation). Otherwise my boy was darn near perfect.

It took me a week to get around to posting our runs on Youtube, it being much easier to post triumphs than disappointments! But here they are, if you're interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WavrKCS0I4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzG4dc_Hgyo


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## petpeeve

Other than that, they were really nice runs though. Don't despair, all looks good and I'd say they were situational glitches. Nothing fundamentally wrong or too serious that they can't be fixed in a jiff. Of course.

I like your right foot start-ups for F8 when going to the right or outside post first. I do the same, myself, just for the F8.

Chin up. 3rd leg is definitely on the horizon.


----------



## kadylady

Shep said:


> -- except he took the dumbbell to the judge on the retrieve over the high jump (he apparently really liked that judge, but I like him too, so I couldn't blame the poor dog!


Aww poor Scot, he looks sad when the judge won't accept the dumbbell! 

Really nice stuff though.


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## trainingjunkie

Really beautiful work!!! Congratulations on great performances! The Qs will come, but you know that. What a fabulous dog and team. You should be very proud!


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## elrohwen

Watson and I are entered in our first Rally trial next weekend. So nervous!

How do you judge when you are likely to go on? Rally starts at 10 and Novice A is last. One day there are 44 total dogs entered and the second day there are 53. Is there a typical calculation to figure out when I will go on? In the breed ring it's usually assumed 2 minutes for each dog.

We're showing in breed at about 11 each day and will likely go to the group ring (there's only one class dog entered) which is scheduled for ~1:30 (though I really don't care if I have to miss Group).


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## trainingjunkie

First, there will be 3 walk thrus at about 10 minutes each. (one for excellent, one for advanced, one for novice.) Then, there will be awards and ribbons for Excellent B, then Excellent A, Advanced B, Advanced A. Plan 3 minutes or so for EACH ribbon ceremony. Then, each excellent run will be roughly 2 minutes average. Each advanced will be about the same only maybe a little shorter. Then the novice runs will be about 1 minute or 1 1/2 minutes. 

Good luck! Get video! Have a blast!


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## elrohwen

Hmm, ok, so on the first day I calculated ~78 minutes before I go on (not counting the walk throughs since they have that scheduled separately). So if they start on time at 10:15, I need to be ready by 11:30? That should work.

Another question is attire. What is appropriate? I really don't want to wear my blazer and skirt from the breed ring if I can help it because they're not super comfortable, and I think Watson will transition better if I change clothes.

Are jeans ok? The lightweight zip up jacket I usually train in? I've seen some people who in pretty casual clothes, but I don't want to wear the wrong thing.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Another question is attire. What is appropriate? I really don't want to wear my blazer and skirt from the breed ring if I can help it because they're not super comfortable, and I think Watson will transition better if I change clothes.
> 
> Are jeans ok? The lightweight zip up jacket I usually train in? I've seen some people who in pretty casual clothes, but I don't want to wear the wrong thing.


I am always pretty casual. Jeans and a decent top, decent zip up jacket if it's cold.


----------



## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> I am always pretty casual. Jeans and a decent top, decent zip up jacket if it's cold.


Ok, perfect! Hopefully I'll have enough time to change and relax for a little bit after breed.

When do you get your score? After everybody in Novice A has gone? Or do they tell you right away?


----------



## trainingjunkie

I think each area has it's own cultural norm. Around here, jeans might be okay, but there may be comments from some obedience people that go along the lines of : If you want the judge to respect you, respect the ring. 

I wear black jeans and some sort of top just to avoid the snickers. For some reason, black jeans are okay, even with obedience people.

I HAVE shown in blue jeans, even in obedience before and no one was rude to my face. I just stopped doing it when I heard all of the grumbling.


----------



## petpeeve

http://www.dogforums.com/dog-sports-show-forum/84913-obedience-trial-attire.html

and ... good luck! 

Oh, also don't forget to factor in any conflicts. Unlike conformation, the ob/rally schedule *can* change slightly to allow for people running multiple dogs etc. The runner will be able to advise you better as your time draws nearer.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Your score will be posted about a minute after your run. They write them on a board for all to see.


----------



## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Your score will be posted about a minute after your run. They write them on a board for all to see.


Oh god, that's terrifying. LOL


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> When do you get your score? After everybody in Novice A has gone? Or do they tell you right away?


The trials I have been to they always list your score under your number at the in gate as soon as the judge hands it over to the steward before the next dog goes in. Which is really nice. If there are dogs before you, you can get an idea of how the judge is scoring them, what does it look like they are losing points on. You don't see their score sheets, just the final score, but you can usually tell based on watching the team and watching when the judge is writing. One trial I was at a ton of Excellent teams where getting really low scores and you could tell that the judge was taking off big points at one particular sign. Turns out they were all not pausing in a place where there is a required pause and she was dinging them all 10 points (which she should have). By the time the advanced teams ran we were all making sure to do a good pause on that sign.


----------



## elrohwen

I would prefer to trial in the same clothes I train in, which are jeans and the same lightweight jacket (when it's not summer), and I think it will be appropriate enough. I think it will be easier for Watson to see me in the same clothes I wear when we train, instead of some new random outfit, especially since he is used to shows being all about the breed ring and he will have to make that transition.

I won't be the super polished, but for Novice A in Rally, in a tiny show, I think it will be fine. I can re-think for our next trial in April at Nationals in case I want to be more dressed up.

I am really glad that we've already been to a number of shows, and he's been in the ring a lot of times, so it will be less overwhelming. I'm sure I'll be nervous as heck, but at least I don't have to worry about him freaking out or being overwhelmed. He loves the ring. To him a show ring equals lots of treats and judges "petting" him. lol


----------



## trainingjunkie

Good luck! Knock em dead!


----------



## kadylady

Good luck and have fun!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Here is a funny video of my new dog playing for RAE legs! Look at the wheels coming off at the start! Then, he was bobbling around like he had head trauma for the rest of the run. In rally, you can help your dog a whole lot! Here is proof!

Last weekend was really, really rough.


----------



## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Here is a funny video of my new dog playing for RAE legs! Look at the wheels coming off at the start! Then, he was bobbling around like he had head trauma for the rest of the run. In rally, you can help your dog a whole lot! Here is proof!
> 
> Last weekend was really, really rough.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwOA6TKru_0


Hey, I'm still super impressed that you're doing RE with a dog you've only had for a few months. I've been working on this stuff with Watson for years and while he has the pieces, there's no way we could trial off leash without him zooming off like a lunatic.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Thanks! He's starting to get a little more complicated right now. He got his RE title last weekend along with two RAE legs, but he isn't looking as good as he was. I am scrambling to be a better partner to him and to figure out why he is getting so stressed. I think small-space training is eroding the fun factor. I can't wait til spring!


----------



## Kyllobernese

I am really looking forward to competing in Rally. At our Obedience fun trial last weekend, Kris was good at everything except the Long Down and she would not have to do that in Rally. I have been mainly training for CKC Obedience as there is no Rally within driving distance to me to practice. I have been doing some of the moves you do not have to do in Obedience and hope I have everything covered for at least the first level competition.


----------



## elrohwen

We got our first Q in Rally! We got a score of 85 and a second place on the first day. It wasn't great and he was super sniffy, and I think we lost most points for tight leash, but there were moments when he was with me and it was pretty good overall.

The second day we NQed because I missed a sign. Watson was so sniffy he wouldn't pick his head up off the ground and whined every time I asked for a sit or down. Then the judge was yelling "loosen your leash!" which was extremely unhelpful, because I wouldn't be dragging him around the course if I didn't have to, and when I tried to pause and get his attention she told me to just keep going. So she yelled and I lost focus and blew right past a sign. Oh well. The astro turf was such a problem for him. He's a sniffy dog in general and the smell of other dogs is like his kryptonite, but this was above and beyond what I've seen at other shows.

We also lost the breed the second day and I think it was entirely because Watson was more interested in flirting with the other dog and couldn't trot in a straight line to save his life. It didn't really matter that we lost since he's already finished, but I thought it would be an easy win. But he's Watson, so I have to expect brat-dog to show up sometimes. lol I think he finds conformation pretty boring and looks for ways to make it more fun for himself. And it's not like I've done any conformation practice with him in 10 months so I'm happy that he did well in the group ring the first day. Mostly this was practice for a show coming up next weekend where there will be lots of other Welshies.

I was panicking before going into the Rally ring because there were times he couldn't even stop sniffing long enough to make any eye contact with me. He was just gone. I'm sure some of it was the stress of being at a show with so many dogs, since he hasn't shown in 10 months. I think a bigger part of it was just teenage boy sniffy dog wanting to sniff all of the things. I really hope we can finish his title at Nationals in April, but I was reminded again that I just don't like showing. Sitting around being stressed out for 6-8 hours is really hard, and Watson has a hard time focusing his brain after that long of a day even if he spends most of it asleep in his crate. I hate preparing and working so hard for 2 minutes in the ring which is so easy to blow entirely, and I think I take it all too personally and feel like I'm a horrible trainer who doesn't belong there and blah blah blah. At least if I enjoyed going to the shows and hanging out I might not care so much about how we do, but I really only show in order to get a title (like his championship) and failing and thinking about having to do it all over again stresses me out. 

Anyway, that was kind of a brain dump about how I'm feeling today. I still really enjoy working with him and going to classes and stuff, and I like the idea of showing, but I don't think it's my thing. 

Here's the video of our qualifying run from the first day:





And a couple pictures that my friend took the second day:


----------



## SDRRanger

Tonight is our first real rally class (as opposed to just having some run throughs and playing around). Hoping to compete at least once this year with my muttly mutt.


----------



## Finkie_Mom

Congrats again on your first Q, elrohwen! Have you done any matches? Those have helped me immensely because they are cheaper than a trial and you can do whatever you want LOL. 

We actually just did a run through yesterday and both dogs did awesome. Kimma hasn't done Rally (as in a course with signs) in years, and Jari has never done it. It was also a new place for all of us, and honestly I wasn't sure Jari would work at all but he did and he was amazing! Blew me away. He's such a different dog than Kimma. She WANTS to work all of the time but sometimes cannot because of her fears, whereas Jari is generally unfocused in new places but is totally confident. He showed me a lot of focus yesterday and now I think we might actually trial in Rally one day haha. Kimma and I have a trial Saturday in Advanced. We will see how she does. As long as she's having fun I'm happy


----------



## petpeeve

*"Please, mom. Don't lose hope. I's a good boy and I KNOW we can do it together, as long as you keep the faith, K?"* 
That's what that picture says to me.

My advice fwiw. Only enter him in one rally trial per weekend, not two. And don't enter conformation at the same show especially in light of the fact he's already finished. Reason being you've seen first hand how stressful it can be on yourself and your dog. Now you need to reduce or even eliminate that stress. Your dog's decline in performance on the second day is typical of a lot of comp dogs, so don't feel bad. It's usable information. One trial per weekend. And imho stop the self-depreciation, it won't help your cause.

Congrats on the first leg. That right there proves you two can do it.


----------



## elrohwen

Finkie_Mom said:


> Congrats again on your first Q, elrohwen! Have you done any matches? Those have helped me immensely because they are cheaper than a trial and you can do whatever you want LOL.


Thanks! The last fun match I heard about was over a year ago. My current rally class is really just run throughs though, so it's pretty similar other than not being a full on trial environment. I've also done some open training days which is pretty similar to a crowded trial environment.



> We actually just did a run through yesterday and both dogs did awesome. Kimma hasn't done Rally (as in a course with signs) in years, and Jari has never done it. It was also a new place for all of us, and honestly I wasn't sure Jari would work at all but he did and he was amazing! Blew me away. He's such a different dog than Kimma. She WANTS to work all of the time but sometimes cannot because of her fears, whereas Jari is generally unfocused in new places but is totally confident. He showed me a lot of focus yesterday and now I think we might actually trial in Rally one day haha. Kimma and I have a trial Saturday in Advanced. We will see how she does. As long as she's having fun I'm happy


Good job Jari and Kimma! I saw your Jari video on FB and he was so cute. Very impressive for a distractable young boy dog.





petpeeve said:


> My advice fwiw. Only enter him in one rally trial per weekend, not two. And don't enter conformation at the same show especially in light of the fact he's already finished. Reason being you've seen first hand how stressful it can be on yourself and your dog. Now you need to reduce or even eliminate that stress. Your dog's decline in performance on the second day is typical of a lot of comp dogs, so don't feel bad. It's usable information. One trial per weekend. And imho stop the self-depreciation, it won't help your cause.
> 
> Congrats on the first leg. That right there proves you two can do it.


Yeah, I do agree one trial per weekend is probably best for him. I already know he has issues with long days and two days is probably too much. I don't know how to make trials less stressful though since I don't really enjoy them. It's not that I'm sitting there nervous all day, but it's not really enjoyable for me or comfortable either, and that's my problem, not his. Though I did try to take a lot of time on the second day to just sit on the floor with him and hang out, and he enjoyed that (that's when the happy picture of him was taken). 

I don't plan to give up on training or anything, but it has made me rethink whether trialing is really my thing.


----------



## Apricot

Aw, congratulations! He's a beautiful dog, and that sounds like a good first weekend to me.

I'm having trouble deciding how to teach articles. Elsie doesn't love the metal article, so I'm trying to take it slow.


----------



## Miss Bugs

Ok I give up..HOW do I get Gem to act sane in the ring? She's AMAZING in every practice and right outside the ring and at fun matches that are set up exactly like the trial rings at the same locations, she amazing and totally sane..I treat her the same way in practice as I do in the ring to avoid confusion.. walk into actual trial ring? Friggen lunatic. She runs around the ring, blows me off, jumps up body checking me every 2 steps, grabs my pants and plays tug, steals signs etc.. she got a note from the judge at tonights trial that the jumping thing has got to stop or I'm going to start getting DQd for having an out of control dog, its nuts. I don't know how to stop it when litterally the ONLY time it occurs is a place I cannot train!


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## Apricot

Oh that's so frustrating, Miss Bugs! I'm sorry you're having to work through that. 

Can you ask the judge if you may leave the ring as soon as she starts?


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## trainingjunkie

Do you video yourself? If not, do that. Have someone tape you in training several times in different places including your warm up. And then be taped in the show ring. Then watch the tapes back to back and see what's different. If you are very nervous, you will feel different to the dog. Likely, your handling will be different too. 

I recently went through this with my whippet. I had to watch the tapes several times to see the changes. I had a tendency to hover more in trial and cue in an exaggerated way that freaked my dog out. Once I could see what I was doing, it really helped. 

There's still a learning curve for teams in competition and we have ground to cover yet, but once I could see the crowding and stiffness in my handling, I was able to make things easier for my dog.


----------



## petpeeve

trainingjunkie has great advice re: record and review.

Also, if you look around here you'll find some more ideas .. http://exercisefinished.blogspot.ca/2011/05/ring-stress-and-obedience-dog-part-ii.html

and here .. 
http://www.dogforums.com/dog-sports-show-forum/139922-controlling-letting-go-dealing.html
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~may/nerves
http://mybullseyeview.com/?p=1920
http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTB943

Keep in mind too, that there ARE visual differences between fun matches and actual trials ... judges with clipboards, timers sitting in chairs, judge's tables, stewards sitting at the judge's table, easels at the ring entrance, flowers etc. Your dog knows the difference, just from the presence of these.


----------



## Poly

Miss Bugs said:


> Ok I give up..HOW do I get Gem to act sane in the ring? She's AMAZING in every practice and right outside the ring and at fun matches that are set up exactly like the trial rings at the same locations, she amazing and totally sane..I treat her the same way in practice as I do in the ring to avoid confusion.. walk into actual trial ring? Friggen lunatic. She runs around the ring, blows me off, jumps up body checking me every 2 steps, grabs my pants and plays tug, steals signs etc.. she got a note from the judge at tonights trial that the jumping thing has got to stop or I'm going to start getting DQd for having an out of control dog, its nuts. I don't know how to stop it when litterally the ONLY time it occurs is a place I cannot train!


This is a tough one. The hints in the links are right on, but I'll just add to them.

You must practice your ring entrance, transitions(in obedience), and setups. Treat your ring entrance , transitions and set-ups as if they each were an "exercise" or "station" in themselves. Develop a number of behaviors that you will use as part of the "exercise"- things like 'Look Up Here' . 'Touch' , 'Spin' and other things to keep them interesting. Work on them as intensely as you work on the actual exercises or stations . Often, with these distracted dogs, you have to maintain continuous eye contact and communication going into the ring and between exercises or stations. 

Some obedience judges will look askance at that sort of thing and consider it training in the ring, bur as long as you aren't too obvious about it, most trial judges will allow it. In Rally-o, of course, you can communicate as much as you want

You say that she doesn't behave like that at a match or in training, but I will bet she is doing _something_ to indicate she is becoming distracted in those situations as well. You can't take your eyes off her at any time and if she starts acting in the least way distracted, correct it immediately. 

If she starts to run around the ring or leaves you in any way, ask to be excused, put on your lead, and bring her immediately to some 'time-out' place _without talking_. Some people say to try to get her back to you in the ring first, but I think that the leaving itself has to be promptly corrected. 

This whole behavior pattern takes quite a bit of time and effort to work out. As its underlying cause, of course, it is basically a stress relief behavior of your dog. The first link is explicit about that. Essentially, you want to convince her that _you_ are paying attention at all times, that her paying attention to _you_ is a fun thing, and that if for some reason you look away, any misbehaviors will be promptly corrected. If you are only doing Obedience, this can be hard to work on, so you might want to try some other training with her like Rally, agility, etc. for a while. Even if you don't actually compete in those other events. 

Finally, that judge was correct. You can be immediately NQ'ed and/or excused for an out of control dog in any companion event. You can also be scored for a lack of control. However, unless your dog actually *attacks* the judge, steward or other person or dog, it is very unlikely that it will be a DQ.


----------



## Apricot

Oh, Miss Bugs, am I correct in thinking this is happening in the obedience ring, not the rally ring? If so, could you try doing rally for a bit? Or maybe one of the lower optional titling classes? I was thinking that in rally you can talk to the dog, so you might be able to express your displeasure? Just a thought.


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## Miss Bugs

Thanks everyone I will go through all this work on it  I do often video actual trials but I've never thought to video training. 

Apricot, no its in any sport that she goes loony tunes in the ring lol, last night it was Rally Advanced Team, so it was only half a coarse and at a lower level then she competes at individually(she's 1 Q short of her Excellent title and preparing for Versatility and working level) its this craziness thats holding her back from that last Q since in the previous levels I could repeat a station when she got too crazy.


----------



## Finkie_Mom

Kimma and I got her RA title today with two 2nd places! FINALLY! We're 6 for 6 in Rally, surprisingly. I'm sure our luck will run out one day 

She's still having issues in trial settings so we are going to keep it low key and continue to do some matches/run throughs for a while now to get her feeling happy again. Poor kiddo. While I'm immensely proud of her, I'm still upset because I KNOW she was stressed. I would LOVE to try for her BN soon but we need more sit for exam practice first as well.


----------



## Shep

If anyone is interested in seeing some lovely Obedience performances, the AKC National Obedience Championship is live streaming now at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE49eQARKiI

It will be going all day. Yesterday was supposed to be live streamed, too, but there were some technical difficulties. I understand it was filmed, though, and will be shown later, but no details on where or when.


----------



## petpeeve

Seems as though the youtube capacity maxed out at 4 hours ??? 

Help ???


----------



## Shep

Yeah, they've been having lots of issues with the live stream. Right now they've just finished runoffs and I think they're about to announce the placements. I really hope the filming went well and we can see a good broadcast of the whole event soon.


----------



## Shep

Bridget Carlsen and Saucy won.  Here is an example of their awesomeness, though not from this weekend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLyQYkHXBK0#t=15


----------



## petpeeve

It kicked back in shortly after I posted. Kind of glitchy from that point onward, but I was generally able to see the remainder and the placements too.

I think that was Bridget Carlsen in first. A little hard to tell for me because my sound and picture were horrible plus I have a splitting headache. Assuming I'm right that was a very nice working team, well, from what I could see of them anyway. 

Congrats to her and her dog. Nicely done. .. :clap2:

eta: just saw your latest comment that it was in fact her. 

BTW thanks for posting the link and notifying us that it was streaming. Much enjoyed that.

eta 2: congrats also to Finkie_Mom and Kimma on your RA title  Didn't mean to overlook you, of course.


----------



## petpeeve

Honest question for anyone. What are the AKC rules regarding hand placement. I noticed in the DoR ex .. for her finish signal her left hand started at her side but ended at her waist (ie: heel). Obviously that must be allowed, right?


----------



## Shep

That is allowed as long as it is a single motion. However, you can't give the signal with your right hand and then bring your left up to your waist as the dog comes into heel position. That looks too much like you're trying to keep the dog from bumping into your left hand.


----------



## petpeeve

OK, thanks for the clarification. Not sure but I think CKC made an amendment in recent years to prohibit that. When I find the time I intend to look it up at least for my own information. Never much affected me even if it is true, I've always made it a habit , personally, of ''hands end where they start'.


----------



## Miss Bugs

We had improvement in Gem's ring behavior today!! She only jumped at me ONCE and she did her fronts perfectly without any silliness, she went out of position a little bit in the beginning but nothing drastic. She was insanely distracted by the rear wall but I don't think that was a "her" thing, MULTIPLE people walked out of the ring mid coarse because the dogs were so distracted by that one spot there was no getting them back. Gem was so distracted she walked on the broad jump but I still existed to her lol and in the last half of the coarse she did great! Focased, In position, no jumping etc


----------



## Shep

Scot finished his CDX yesterday! No video this time, but he did an excellent job, scoring 196. Because he's had some problems with distractions lately, I picked a small, one-ring trial and he stayed very focused. Best of all were the stays. He is very solid on stays and has never had an issue with breaking, but for a while he had a habit of making googly eyes at the dogs on each side of him. This really bothered me, as I don't want my dog's flirty ways to cause other dogs to break. But we have worked hard on that, and the judge told me that he was perfectly behaved on both the sit and the down. So yay!


----------



## elrohwen

Go Scot! You guys both look so happy!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Congratulations!!!! Great score!!! Good for you. Utility here you come!

Really, congratulations!


----------



## kadylady

Congratulations!! That is awesome! Love the picture too


----------



## elrohwen

I forgot to share that Watson got his Rally Novice title last weekend! I'm very proud of my little guy. Now he has titles at both ends of his name!

It was also our National Specialty, so it was very cool to get the title there among friends and his breeder.


----------



## Shep

Beautiful picture, elrohwen! I take it the scary-looking toy is Watson's prize?


----------



## elrohwen

Shep said:


> Beautiful picture, elrohwen! I take it the scary-looking toy is Watson's prize?


Haha, yes! He didn't win it, but we bought it for him right after he Q'd. We picked out the orange alien guy version of the toy when he finished his championship last year, so it seemed appropriate.

The day before was Nationals and we took first place (as the only Welshie in Novice A), plus every dog who Q'd got a fleece tug. Of course the steward randomly handed us the most girly one. Haha. I was going to trade with Watson's mom's owner who got an orange/grey/white tug, but someone else traded with her first. Oh well. He can give it to the girl puppy when she arrives.

Here is Watson with his pink tug:


----------



## Apricot

Congratulations to the new titles!  

We had a good weekend too; I handled my dad's dog, Zoey in rally and got her 3rd and 4th RAE legs (96,97, 97, 96; first, second, first, third), and Elsie got her first pre-open leg (191, 1st).

















Zoey! 

















Elsie!


----------



## Shep

Congratulations, Apricot!


----------



## ireth0

Friends! We are possibly starting in Rally classes in the summer (July-ish) what are some basic skills we could practice between now and then without getting too technical?


----------



## parus

My dog Cassius and I are going for his RA title next month. I'm nervous about it in a way I wasn't at all nervous about the RN, and I'm not sure why. I think maybe because I've had a year of people pointing out how nice he is and the poster dog for adult adoptions and blah blah blah so now there's actual pressure to do well, lol.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Friends! We are possibly starting in Rally classes in the summer (July-ish) what are some basic skills we could practice between now and then without getting too technical?


Heeling! Rally is, at its heart, just heeling exercises. If your dog can heel, sit, and down on command, you're pretty much there. 

You can also find the signs online and start going over them. IME they look very confusing at first, but once you've gone over them a few times they are very easy and obvious. Something like a halt, then left turn looks strange in sign form, but it's really not a hard exercise once you get what the sign is asking. If you have some of the signs figured out you will be ahead of the game.



parus said:


> My dog Cassius and I are going for his RA title next month. I'm nervous about it in a way I wasn't at all nervous about the RN, and I'm not sure why. I think maybe because I've had a year of people pointing out how nice he is and the poster dog for adult adoptions and blah blah blah so now there's actual pressure to do well, lol.


See, for me it would be the nerves about being off leash and wondering if my dog is going to bust out of the ring and joy run around the show. 

But maybe that's just my dog. Haha.


----------



## parus

elrohwen said:


> See, for me it would be the nerves about being off leash and wondering if my dog is going to bust out of the ring and joy run around the show.
> 
> But maybe that's just my dog. Haha.


Cas has been good about sticking with me off-leash in the ring in fairly chaotic practices, so I am trying not to fret about that too much. Plus a bunch of dogs ran out of the obedience ring last year (there was a pretty big distraction nearby) and nothing bad happened, so I'm also trying to keep that as a reassurance in mind, lol.


----------



## elrohwen

parus said:


> elrohwen said:
> 
> 
> 
> See, for me it would be the nerves about being off leash and wondering if my dog is going to bust out of the ring and joy run around the show.
> 
> But maybe that's just my dog. Haha.
> 
> 
> 
> Cas has been good about sticking with me off-leash in the ring in fairly chaotic practices, so I am trying not to fret about that too much. Plus a bunch of dogs ran out of the obedience ring last year (there was a pretty big distraction nearby) and nothing bad happened, so I'm also trying to keep that as a reassurance in mind, lol.
Click to expand...

I told my husband that if we ever make it to off leash obedience stuff, he needs to stand at the ring gate and tackle Watson like a line baker if he tries to escape. Haha


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Heeling! Rally is, at its heart, just heeling exercises. If your dog can heel, sit, and down on command, you're pretty much there.
> 
> You can also find the signs online and start going over them. IME they look very confusing at first, but once you've gone over them a few times they are very easy and obvious. Something like a halt, then left turn looks strange in sign form, but it's really not a hard exercise once you get what the sign is asking. If you have some of the signs figured out you will be ahead of the game.
> 
> 
> 
> See, for me it would be the nerves about being off leash and wondering if my dog is going to bust out of the ring and joy run around the show.
> 
> But maybe that's just my dog. Haha.


Down is something I have neglected, hahaha. And heel we've never tried before. I mean, she's done something that I imagine is pretty close to a real heel, but not on cue or with any required duration.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Down is something I have neglected, hahaha. And heel we've never tried before. I mean, she's done something that I imagine is pretty close to a real heel, but not on cue or with any required duration.


Down isn't that important. Over months of taking classes we've had a sign with a "down" maybe twice. Heeling is really the important part, so work on that. You at least want her to be able to follow a food lure held at your hip for some kind of duration.

You could also work on rear end awareness. There are a lot of 270deg and 260deg turns, pivots, about turns, etc and having rear end awareness helps with that. I taught it by pivoting on an over turned bowl.

Another popular sign is to have the dog sit or down in heel position, stay, then you walk all the way around the dog back into heel position. Or call the dog into front position, dog stays, then walk around them until you're in heel position. So work on staying while you walk the whole way around her. I think one of those signs has been in most of the courses I've done including the actual ones at trials.

Calling the dog into a front position and then doing either a left or right finish is another common sign.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Down isn't that important. Over months of taking classes we've had a sign with a "down" maybe twice. Heeling is really the important part, so work on that. You at least want her to be able to follow a food lure held at your hip for some kind of duration.
> 
> You could also work on rear end awareness. There are a lot of 270deg and 260deg turns, pivots, about turns, etc and having rear end awareness helps with that. I taught it by pivoting on an over turned bowl.
> 
> Another popular sign is to have the dog sit or down in heel position, stay, then you walk all the way around the dog back into heel position. Or call the dog into front position, dog stays, then walk around them until you're in heel position. So work on staying while you walk the whole way around her. I think one of those signs has been in most of the courses I've done including the actual ones at trials.
> 
> Calling the dog into a front position and then doing either a left or right finish is another common sign.


Ooh yea, in our tricks class we have been working on pivoting on a stool, so that should help for the rear end awareness. It's something I wanted to practice more at home anyway.

Stay is one of the things Luna does really well at. I'm pretty sure I was able to walk all the way around her in our basic class, and I've lifted my legs over her and etc. For some reason it's a cue I find really fun to work on, "Oooh, what can I try THIS TIME"


----------



## parus

elrohwen said:


> I told my husband that if we ever make it to off leash obedience stuff, he needs to stand at the ring gate and tackle Watson like a line baker if he tries to escape. Haha


Oh, yeah, I have someone doing this for me, don't get me wrong


----------



## parus

Yesterday I took Cassius to a training center he's never been to before to do Rally Advanced run-throughs. (For a city of like 30,000 people Fairbanks sure has a lot of dog stuff!) He was more distracted and poky than he is at our usual venue, but he still stuck with me and did all the signs...we only had to repeat one sign once (the stupid halt - front - finish left halt sign, which I loathe). So he performed fine despite a bunch of unfamiliar dogs and an unfamiliar place. I take this as a good sign for next month's show.


----------



## elrohwen

parus said:


> Yesterday I took Cassius to a training center he's never been to before to do Rally Advanced run-throughs. (For a city of like 30,000 people Fairbanks sure has a lot of dog stuff!) He was more distracted and poky than he is at our usual venue, but he still stuck with me and did all the signs...we only had to repeat one sign once (the stupid halt - front - finish left halt sign, which I loathe). So he performed fine despite a bunch of unfamiliar dogs and an unfamiliar place. I take this as a good sign for next month's show.


Go Cas!

I wish I had more opportunities to do run throughs in different places. Definitely something we are missing in our training.


----------



## parus

He just a generally nice dog.

ALSO I HATE THIS SIGN. THIS SIGN IS THE WORST SIGN.


----------



## elrohwen

parus said:


> He just a generally nice dog.
> 
> ALSO I HATE THIS SIGN. THIS SIGN IS THE WORST SIGN.


LOL! I don't think I've even encountered that sign. I'll have to find it in my Rally cards pack I got from MrsBoats. So it's halt (dog sits in heel), call dog front (dog sits in front), finish left (dog sits in heel)? That's what I'm getting from the text though I still haven't figured out what all of the arrows are doing. Seems like arrow all the way on the right should be flipped with the other arrows.

ireth0, if you're reading this, this is why you should study the signs a bit on your own. Some just look ridiculous and make zero sense.


----------



## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> LOL! I don't think I've even encountered that sign. I'll have to find it in my Rally cards pack I got from MrsBoats. So it's halt (dog sits in heel), call dog front (dog sits in front), finish left (dog sits in heel)? That's what I'm getting from the text though I still haven't figured out what all of the arrows are doing. Seems like arrow all the way on the right should be flipped with the other arrows.
> 
> ireth0, if you're reading this, this is why you should study the signs a bit on your own. Some just look ridiculous and make zero sense.


Not my favorite sign either. I retrained my fronts because of this sign. The hard part about this sign is that once the dog does the first sit in heel, you can't step backwards to help with getting the dog in front like you can on the other call front signs. Luke really couldn't figure that one out without massive help, so I retrained the whole front position with platforms.


----------



## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Not my favorite sign either. I retrained my fronts because of this sign. The hard part about this sign is that once the dog does the first sit in heel, you can't step backwards to help with getting the dog in front like you can on the other call front signs. Luke really couldn't figure that one out without massive help, so I retrained the whole front position with platforms.


Yeah, usually I do the step back, but I have tried luring without stepping back. Took a couple tries but Watson figured it out, and then I never tried it again 

ETA: Also, his fronts are iffy now because he wants to swing into a left finish so he comes in with his butt at a 45deg angle. Usually the first one is good, but the more I ask the more crooked he gets. Add that to the list of things I need to go back and proof better. He looks so pleased with himself too, like "Look ma! I'm already almost in heel position! I'm so smart!"


----------



## parus

Correct. The arrows are on crack. I don't even look at arrows on the signs anymore; they just screw me up. 

By the third sit Cas is always like DID I DO SOMETHING WRONG IS THAT WHY YOU ARE MAKING ME SIT OVER AND OVER AGAIN IN THE SAME TWO SQUARE FOOT AREA? DO YOU WANT ME TO PLAY DEAD OR SHAKE HANDS OR SOMETHING? I COULD TRY THAT! HERE'S MY PAW! Also left swing finishes suck with a dog as large as Cas and that last sit just draws a line under how out of position he usually is. lol


----------



## parus

Did our first RA test today, and got a 90. I'm very pleased with this. We lost points for nicking the jump, and I almost blew past a sign so we did a do-over, and a couple more points for inattentiveness when we got to the corner of the ring where all the other dogs were and Cas was like WHOOOOOO DOGS! But he stuck right with me and did all the signs and he was nice and calm around all the show busyness. Leg two tomorrow, hopefully!


----------



## Miss Bugs

Gem's CARO Rally Excellent run from Wed. very happy overall!! only real issue we had was that on every finish left, she tried to do a finish right for some reason(left is her default, so I was kinda thrown lol) and she DQ'd on the spread jump as she barely tried to jump at all, and slipped on the end as barley jumping doesn't take her very far lol. she paid attention to me, she didn't run around the ring jumping at my face, she didn't try to take the tunnel before I sent her, and she actually did all the fronts without being an idiot about it! if she keeps this up, maybe we will actually GET that darn Excellent title one of these days!

https://youtu.be/iVpQxVVb2pA


----------



## parus

Cool 

Hey, does anyone know if blowing off a jump is an automatic NQ? I had always thought it was, but a few dogs at the show last month did so and the judge didn't automatically NQ for it (one of those dogs NQ'd on points, but not just because of the jump), so out of curiosity I looked it up in the rules and couldn't find anything really unambiguously stating it.


----------



## trainingjunkie

parus said:


> Cool
> 
> Hey, does anyone know if blowing off a jump is an automatic NQ? I had always thought it was, but a few dogs at the show last month did so and the judge didn't automatically NQ for it (one of those dogs NQ'd on points, but not just because of the jump), so out of curiosity I looked it up in the rules and couldn't find anything really unambiguously stating it.


In AKC, this is 10 points. I can only speak of AKC, but I am 100% sure of this. If a dog refuses a jump, it is 10 points off. However, if a team completely bypasses the jump and do not engage it at all, it's an NQ. Teams must attempt every station in order.


----------



## parus

Okay, that makes sense. So if the dog, for example, ran up to the jump, was like NOPE and ran around to rejoin the handler and do the next station, that would be ten off for incorrectly performed, but if the dog and handler just breezed by without the handler even cueing it, that would be an NQ?


----------



## trainingjunkie

Yes. In AKC, that would be correct.


----------



## Miss Bugs

Is a 10 point deduction on 1 station not an NQ in AKC? an incorrectly preformed station is an automatic NQ in CARO but so is losing 10 points on any one station. Thats why Gem's still stuck in Excellent, she does 1 random dumb thing like refuses "front" and I have to repeat the command 3 times and we point out(first repeat is -2, each repeat thereafter is -5 so your out very quickly). This was the second time she's NQ'd by walking on the spread jump, its really annoying lol


----------



## trainingjunkie

Miss Bugs said:


> Is a 10 point deduction on 1 station not an NQ in AKC? an incorrectly preformed station is an automatic NQ in CARO but so is losing 10 points on any one station. Thats why Gem's still stuck in Excellent, she does 1 random dumb thing like refuses "front" and I have to repeat the command 3 times and we point out(first repeat is -2, each repeat thereafter is -5 so your out very quickly). This was the second time she's NQ'd by walking on the spread jump, its really annoying lol


Nope! You can actually IP 3 stations as long as you don't make any other errors. You need a score of 70. And you must engage every obstacle in sequence. 

All of the venues are so different.


----------



## parus

Station not attempted is an NQ in AKC, as is losing over 30 points overall. If you screw up a station, it's generally better to repeat it once (-3) than to try to fix it and do the station incorrectly in the process (-10). But you can't repeat jumps. I think you could lose more than 10 points in a single station...like you could lose 10 for doing it incorrectly (say, the dog sits unnecessarily before the down), and a point or two if the dog is slow, and a point or two if the dog is out of position, and so forth...can add up quickly if it's sloppy.


----------



## Miss Bugs

trainingjunkie said:


> Nope! You can actually IP 3 stations as long as you don't make any other errors. You need a score of 70. And you must engage every ostationin sequence.
> 
> All of the venues are so different.


Man, I wish! Lol once you hit Excellent in CARO they yank the training wheels out from under you and all bets are off lol


----------



## Miss Bugs

parus said:


> Station not attempted is an NQ in AKC, as is losing over 30 points overall. If you screw up a station, it's generally better to repeat it once (-3) than to try to fix it and do the station incorrectly in the process (-10). But you can't repeat jumps. I think you could lose more than 10 points in a single station...like you could lose 10 for doing it incorrectly (say, the dog sits unnecessarily before the down), and a point or two if the dog is slow, and a point or two if the dog is out of position, and so forth...can add up quickly if it's sloppy.


Yes in Novice and Advanced CARO we are taught to make use of the repeat option because its only -3, but in CARO excellent repeating anything is an NQ, only reason Gem didn't NQ before the spread jump on the call front finish left was because I got her back to front before she sat down in a right finish amd I didnt move my feet, so we just lost like 7 points for out of position and repeated commands, had she sat we would have immediately NQ'd.


----------



## parus

lol, I don't know whether there's something similar with AKC Rally Excellent because I'm not even thinking about it until winter. We just got our RA title and the next show isn't until next spring, so we have some time to screw around with other nonsense instead. But I think it's basically the same as Advanced, just stricter about handler behavior and with harder signs.


----------



## Miss Bugs

Out of curiosity is it more common in AKC to not Qualify by just not getting a score of at least 70 then it is to straight up NQ? In CARO it's 170 needed to Q... I've been competing with Gem for 3 years now and we've never pointed below 170(I've seen it happen, but rarely) but we've been working on that last Excellent Q for a year now because straight up NQing is really really easy lol. Her first Excellent run sge she NQ'd by simply swinging out more the 45* on the first step of the back up 3 steps, didn't matter then she straightend up, the instant her butt swung out when my foot moved she was NQ'd.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Miss Bugs said:


> Out of curiosity is it more common in AKC to not Qualify by just not getting a score of at least 70 then it is to straight up NQ? In CARO it's 170 needed to Q... I've been competing with Gem for 3 years now and we've never pointed below 170(I've seen it happen, but rarely) but we've been working on that last Excellent Q for a year now because straight up NQing is really really easy lol. Her first Excellent run sge she NQ'd by simply swinging out more the 45* on the first step of the back up 3 steps, didn't matter then she straightend up, the instant her butt swung out when my foot moved she was NQ'd.


The Q rate in AKC rally is pretty high. Most of the NQs I've see have been one of two types: 1.) The dog just flat-out stops working. He might be doing the whole "walking dead" thing or zooming around, but there is no more work being done. Or, 2.) The handler accidently walks past a sign.

I've done a bunch of rally. My oldest dog almost has his RAE4. He has never NQed. In addition, I have put REs on 3 other dogs and have 2 that are halfway to RAEs. I have NQed twice. In both NQs, my dogs just stressed out and couldn't hold it together. The AKC is very, very forgiving in Rally.


----------



## parus

Last year when I did Novice almost half the dogs NQ'd two days, and the third day several of them did not return. This year in Advanced there was one NQ and I BELIEVE there were two NQs in Excellent, one where the dog zoomed off, and one where they lost on points. 

It is pretty hard to NQ if you manage to do every station, I think.


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## Miss Bugs

No fair lol. NQing in CARO is super easy and 0-1 Q per class is pretty standard. We have C stream as well which requires 190 or higher to Q.. I'm not planning on trying that at this point, its so easy to NQ as it is nevermind compounding it lol


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## kadylady

I can't remember if it was UKC or AKC but I was at a Rally trial once and the judge NQ'd over half of the Novice class for excessive tight leashes. As in, they did the whole course with a choke hold on the dog. The judge explained it to them after the class was over and the second trial (it was a 2 trials per day show) they all Q'd.


----------



## trainingjunkie

kadylady said:


> I can't remember if it was UKC or AKC but I was at a Rally trial once and the judge NQ'd over half of the Novice class for excessive tight leashes. As in, they did the whole course with a choke hold on the dog. The judge explained it to them after the class was over and the second trial (it was a 2 trials per day show) they all Q'd.


AKC hates tight leashes! I've seen several handler's NQ for that. And also for barking.


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## elrohwen

We got yelled at for tight leash, which caused me to miss a sign and NQ us on our own. Haha. Watson was soooo sniffy and we weren't going to get around the course that day without some tightness in the leash, but I wish the judge had kept it to herself until the end.


----------



## Miss Bugs

Lol! Our CARO judges cant stand tight leashes either, sometimes newbies come to a trial, who traveled from elsewhere, and a lot of them do tight leash or leash correct their dog in the ring and I sit outside the ring cringing because they are gonna get in trouble lol. Even if they are new, if they took classes here they would know that a tight leash is a MAJOR nono! Bend down, let your arm out, whatever, just don't let that leash get tight while you get your dogs focas back. My instructer puts streamers on her students dogs to replace the leashes in order to force people to really think about their actions to avoid ripping the streamers lol


----------



## parus

Would it be a dumb thing to sign up for Rally Excellent trials next month when we just did our Rally Advanced title last month? I don't even know the Rally Excellent-specific rules yet, but we know all the signs, I think. 

We got decent but not stellar scores on the three RA runs we've done. We are kind of sloppy but Cas consistently does all the commands and stays with me.


----------



## elrohwen

I haven't done either title so take this with a grain of salt. But I think it would be ok. I've done pretty much all of the signs and I don't see a big difference in the two levels. If I can get Watson to work off leash I think we could get through both levels pretty easily.


----------



## parus

I think the only sign we haven't really practiced is "send to jump," but Cas knows to jump over the jump I'm pointing at when I say "jump" and he can be called back to heel when away from me, so I don't think it'd be a problem. Plus we'd have a few weeks to practice. 

It's an outdoor show, which we've never done, but we did do his CGC outside and that was fine...


----------



## parus

I also feel kind of like if we do it now, I'll be less nervy about it, because I won't have spent a whole year being like OKAY NEXT YEAR WE'LL TAKE OUR SHOT. Instead it'll be like, meh, if we miss a leg now we can pick it up in the spring.

He was so good at the Memorial Day show.


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## trainingjunkie

When my dogs finished their advanced titles, we moved up to excellent the next day. If your dog is fine at advanced and knows the signs in excellent, there really isn't any significant difference.

Good luck!


----------



## Miss Bugs

Ya, I put Gem in excellent at the same trial she finished her advanced, she wasn't trained in excellent, but I figured why not? She actually did extremely well and only NQd because she swung her butt too far at the start of the back up and the judge straight up said she felt really bad NQing her because the run was otherwise super good and she obviously could back up straight as she did straighten up. Honestly I think it went well because she was so green in that level that I honestly didn't expect anything, I say go for it, it'll be ring practice if nothing else lol


----------



## Rescued

Does anyone do (rally) have skype and would be willing to skype us and see if i'm getting all the novice ones correctly? Trying to figure out what class to enroll nug in since i think rally really might be his thing but he learns FAST and so far the classes only one step above the CGC class haven't been very advanced for him.


----------



## elrohwen

Rescued said:


> Does anyone do (rally) have skype and would be willing to skype us and see if i'm getting all the novice ones correctly? Trying to figure out what class to enroll nug in since i think rally really might be his thing but he learns FAST and so far the classes only one step above the CGC class haven't been very advanced for him.


Could you video and put on YouTube? I'd be happy to look but I don't think I have time to skype it.


----------



## Rescued

elrohwen said:


> Could you video and put on YouTube? I'd be happy to look but I don't think I have time to skype it.


I dont want my face or call names of my dogs online publicly  I'll see if i can find someone to skype first!


----------



## sassafras

Took Toast to rally class for the first time tonight. 

I can't even with this puppy. Other than a few I haven't trained yet, he did all the skills. Not perfectly, but amazingly for his inexperience and age and distractions of being around new people and new dogs in the middle of being a teenaged malinois full of conflicting feelings about strangers. His focus is incredible. He is more interested in the work and what I have to say than he is in the environment. I'm just so... unused to that. 

I love Squash and working with him so much, he's so much fun. But I've spent so much time battling with the environment with him to build up to the working relationship we have that this is like a beautiful dream. Don't wake me up!


----------



## trainingjunkie

My Mahto finished his BN title this weekend. Not perfect, but pretty decent work. Here is one section of heeling and his title run...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aC8Ge_jvSk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmlVOt0S0iQ


----------



## kadylady

trainingjunkie said:


> My Mahto finished his BN title this weekend. Not perfect, but pretty decent work. Here is one section of heeling and his title run...


Congrats trainingjunkie!!! That was a really nice run!!


----------



## trainingjunkie

kadylady said:


> Congrats trainingjunkie!!! That was a really nice run!!


Thanks! He is starting to look a little more confident! I am hopeful that he has a future in the obedience ring!


----------



## CptJack

Congratulations! He's gorgeous, too!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Thank you! I'm pretty fond of him!


----------



## elrohwen

He's looking really good! Congrats to both of you!


----------



## MrsBoats

Congrats!!!!!!!


----------



## Shep

Congratulations, TJ!


----------



## Shep

Scot got two legs toward his Graduate Open title last weekend! I honestly thought he might flunk everything but the moving stand (and maybe even that), but I was not giving him nearly enough credit.

Video from the first day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd_b9r9g24U

It was his first time in anything resembling Utility, so I gave him as much help as I could. His heeling kind of sucked, with a big bump on the left turn and he apparently saw God outside the ring and forgot about me on the 2nd about turn (I definitely should have given him an extra command there; bad on me that I didn't!). When I saw how distracted he was, I went only halfway away from him on the signals and gave him verbal as well as signal cues, because you can do that in this class. To my delight, he was fine on the modified articles and directed retrieve exercises (OK, he had a little fun with the glove); he has some stress issues in these areas. He stopped INSTANTLY on the moving stand (Yay!) even with just a verbal command (I didn't give him a signal because he reacts to that by dropping back out of heel position). Short little go-out was fine and I was so happy with him at this point I actually forgot myself and praised him before the judge said Exercise Finished (judge either didn't hear me or was just nice!). I held the signal forever on the jump, but I did it on purpose to help him (judge again was nice). 

Next day was more of the same but with better heeling. Moral of the story -- support your dog! If he needs help, give it to him. If the judge doesn't like it, he or she can excuse you, but that's a lot better than leaving your inexperienced dog confused and hanging. Your dog will gain confidence and realize nothing's going to eat him in the ring, and you'll have a good foundation for the future!


----------



## trainingjunkie

Really nice work and fabulous support! Looked excellent!

What are your thoughts about your Utility debut? He sure looks very, very close!

Fabulous stuff! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Shep

Thanks, TJ! I'm thinking about entering Utility in Dec. or Jan. We have a few small kinks to work out, and I want him to be very ready. We're going to enter lots of show & go's before then!


----------



## petpeeve

Very nice. Even with the minor shortcomings you noted, it was still a real PLEASURE to watch.

Good luck with the third leg, and your impending debut in Utility too. Looking forward to any updates as they occur.


----------



## ireth0

We're FINALLY really going to be starting Rally classes in Sept! I've had to keep putting it off for financial reasons, but that's all squared away now. 

I'm going to try to practice heeling on my own between now and then, as weather permits. We don't really have space to do heeling inside.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> We're FINALLY really going to be starting Rally classes in Sept! I've had to keep putting it off for financial reasons, but that's all squared away now.
> 
> I'm going to try to practice heeling on my own between now and then, as weather permits. We don't really have space to do heeling inside.


Awesome!

We're also starting a rally class in mid-September and I'm excited. Watson really enjoys rally.

Also, there is plenty you can do with heeling in small spaces! I teach 90% of heeling small rooms of my house.


----------



## ireth0

Yea, right now I think I need the space more than she does, lol. I've been working on working from my left side which isn't natural for me so I've just got to work on reward placement and coordination and all of that. Don't need to be tripping over cats in the process, haha.

Also need to work on not getting dizzy. We practiced for a few minutes yesterday and whooo doggie.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea, right now I think I need the space more than she does, lol. I've been working on working from my left side which isn't natural for me so I've just got to work on reward placement and coordination and all of that. Don't need to be tripping over cats in the process, haha.
> 
> Also need to work on not getting dizzy. We practiced for a few minutes yesterday and whooo doggie.


I work on a ton of stationary stuff. Adding pivots, backing up, moving forward one step, etc. That stuff requires a tiny amount of space and doesn't make you dizzy (unless you overdo the pivots ;-)


----------



## ireth0

Oh yea, I just need to work on heeling stuff in general. I figure just a little bit here and there as much as we can, and then once we get to class the instructor can suggest specific things we should work on/do.


----------



## elrohwen

What I'm trying to say, and not saying very well, is that the foundation stuff can all be done basically in a 4'x4' area. At the beginning of heeling training you don't need to be taking any more than one or two steps.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> What I'm trying to say, and not saying very well, is that the foundation stuff can all be done basically in a 4'x4' area. At the beginning of heeling training you don't need to be taking any more than one or two steps.


Oh yea that's true. 

At what point should I be putting a cue to it? I guess my hand/arm placement is a cue for her but I haven't used a word. It seems to me like it would be confusing trying to figure out what we're doing?


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Oh yea that's true.
> 
> At what point should I be putting a cue to it? I guess my hand/arm placement is a cue for her but I haven't used a word. It seems to me like it would be confusing trying to figure out what we're doing?


I wouldn't put a verbal cue to it until very late. Basically when the dog can independently find the position from wherever they are I will put it on verbal cue.


----------



## petpeeve

Something like this might help to get a bit of a headstart before classes commence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5il8ym0ymY I'd use it as a separate exercise in conjunction with elrohwen's suggestions about one step, pivoting, backing up etc in a small space. As long as the whole kit and caboodle is not too overwhelming for you and/or your dog.

ps, as per the link I posted don't occasionally "look back" or turn your shoulders in order to find your dog if she lags or gets distracted, say nothing and keep moving, choose your focal point and stick with it, use your peripheral vision and you'll see when she comes into proper position.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I wouldn't put a verbal cue to it until very late. Basically when the dog can independently find the position from wherever they are I will put it on verbal cue.


So how do I indicate to her that that's what I want her to do? Just from the hand signal/position?



petpeeve said:


> Something like this might help to get a bit of a headstart before classes commence. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5il8ym0ymY I'd use it in conjunction with elrohwen's suggestions about one step, pivoting, backing up etc in a small space. As long as the whole kit and caboodle is not too overwhelming for you and/or your dog.
> 
> ps, as per the link I posted don't occasionally "look back" or turn your shoulders in order to find your dog if she lags or gets distracted, say nothing and keep moving, choose your focal point and stick with it, use your peripheral vision and you'll see when she comes into proper position.


Ooh thank you! Will check it out when I get home.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> So how do I indicate to her that that's what I want her to do? Just from the hand signal/position?


Yep. There is a ton of body language involved so she will get the idea. I also heavily lure for position (with and without food in my hand) for a long time so it's obvious to the dog where his head should be.


----------



## elrohwen

Personally I don't really get the "choose to heel" stuff. I think it has some uses with a very novice dog or puppy, but I didn't find it helpful to teach the dog exactly where I want him to be and how he should carry himself in that position and where he should be focusing, etc. If you take your dog for walks you probably already reward when they show up roughly at your left leg so they know it's a good place to be, but IME it doesn't create anything approaching a competition heel. Maybe there's more to it that I don't get, but I did all of the basics and just got a dog who randomly showed up in a sloppy heel position, and then checked out to sniff again.


----------



## trainingjunkie

Got 2 CD legs this weekend. Not pretty. Not pretty at all. My dog was very nervous and I wasn't able to support him enough to make him comfortable. Definitely a work in progress. BUT... 2 CD legs anyway.

Back to the drawing board!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDHF3Jx8OGo


----------



## Shep

That looked pretty good to me, TJ! I've found that runs often look better to other people than they feel to us at the time (at least mine do -- I've often left the ring going "OMG, OMG!" and had people I didn't even know say "Wow, nice run!"). He just looked a little tentative and nervous, and that showed up on the heel free, which is where it so often shows up with inexperienced dogs. You dropped your shoulder and looked back at him, which is SO hard not to do with a lagging dog, and that made him lag more. Other than that, I thought he looked really good, just inexperienced.

All I can say is, breathe deeply, stride out confidently, and don't, don't, don't look back at him. This is probably the hardest thing of all for me, and it's why I'll take just about any heeling problem over lagging. I cannot seem to make myself not look back, no matter how hard I try, so I desperately try to make sure my dogs never lag! Still working on that. You might even give him an extra command for the no-sits, too. It'll cost you points, but it will pay off in the long run.

Congrats on the legs!!


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## petpeeve

Didn't appear all that ugly to me either. I mean, you guys got 2 legs ... how bad can it be. 

Totally agree with Shep's assessment and advice re: don't look back. Even if your dog requires direct eye contact, pick a semi-forward focal point and stick with it. 

Perhaps motivational start-ups will do a world of good, since you seem to be losing him a bit right from the start. Also .. more hand touches between ex's, maybe a spin here or there, or whatever the dog finds intrinsically rewarding ... *something* at least that will allow for additional pressure relief when required. I know you didn't ask for advice but that's my nickel's worth anyway .

Chin up, two qualifying scores is nothing to sniff at. Congrats from me, as well.


----------



## Kyllobernese

For people who do both Rally and Obedience, which trials would you start with or does it matter? I was thinking Rally because you can encourage your dog more but in the two Obedience fun trials I have had Kris in, she did pretty good without extra commands or talking to her. Does it confuse them that you can talk to them in Rally and not in Obedience?


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## trainingjunkie

Thanks guys! I definitely need to not look back. In real time, I didn't think I did, but wow! Watching on video, I sure did! I will be much more mindful next time!

Normally, he loves to spin and jump, but my other whippet T-boned him last week. Right after this class, we went to our chiropractor and got the zingers out of his back. She wasn't able to get me in until after our trial. I think it will be easier next time we trial when neither of us is worried about ouching up his spine.

Thanks again! I hope we can clean it all up. He is capable of really nice work. He could be a lot of fun if his confidence comes up.


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## trainingjunkie

Kyllobernese said:


> For people who do both Rally and Obedience, which trials would you start with or does it matter? I was thinking Rally because you can encourage your dog more but in the two Obedience fun trials I have had Kris in, she did pretty good without extra commands or talking to her. Does it confuse them that you can talk to them in Rally and not in Obedience?


Either is fine! AND, you don't have to give extra commands in rally if you don't want to. Some dogs hate all of the "doodles" of rally and find it all demotivating. Some love it. You can do both at the same time too. No need to chose.


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## ireth0

I find myself worrying lately that we wont be able to get things 'right' in rally. Or that we'll get too focused on getting the nit picky things and it won't be any fun. 

Maybe it's because we've been out of formal classes for a while, I forget what it's like.

I have to remind myself that the goal is just having fun doing something together, not to be the very best like no one ever was.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I find myself worrying lately that we wont be able to get things 'right' in rally. Or that we'll get too focused on getting the nit picky things and it won't be any fun.
> 
> Maybe it's because we've been out of formal classes for a while, I forget what it's like.
> 
> I have to remind myself that the goal is just having fun doing something together, not to be the very best like no one ever was.


You guys will be fine! I've done Rally classes with confo dogs who didn't even know how to sit yet.They are usually super casual and open to all levels and abilities. Even for competition there is a wide variety of people who compete. Some are putting in super accurate obedience like performances, like MrsBoats or trainingjunkie, and others are just there for fun and don't have a perfect heel or anything. And you guys have never done Rally before so I doubt they will expect you to have a finished heel or know all of the signs - that's what the class is for.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> You guys will be fine! I've done Rally classes with confo dogs who didn't even know how to sit yet.They are usually super casual and open to all levels and abilities. Even for competition there is a wide variety of people who compete. Some are putting in super accurate obedience like performances, like MrsBoats or trainingjunkie, and others are just there for fun and don't have a perfect heel or anything. And you guys have never done Rally before so I doubt they will expect you to have a finished heel or know all of the signs - that's what the class is for.


Thanks. 

I know logically it'll probably be fine, but for some reason with this I feel pressure to do 'well' vs other stuff we've done where I've had more of a 'whatever will be will be, let's go and try it out' attitude.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> I know logically it'll probably be fine, but for some reason with this I feel pressure to do 'well' vs other stuff we've done where I've had more of a 'whatever will be will be, let's go and try it out' attitude.


Have you looked over any of the signs and what they mean? I found that to be the most confusing part of starting rally. The actual stuff you have to do isn't that hard, but figuring out what the heck the sign is talking about can be confusing. The whole thing got a lot more fun when I could quickly read a course and execute things smoothly instead of standing in front of one for 20sec trying to figure it out.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Have you looked over any of the signs and what they mean? I found that to be the most confusing part of starting rally. The actual stuff you have to do isn't that hard, but figuring out what the heck the sign is talking about can be confusing. The whole thing got a lot more fun when I could quickly read a course and execute things smoothly instead of standing in front of one for 20sec trying to figure it out.


No I haven't, but thinking about it more I think I know what's making me feel this way.

I was not involved in the whole conversation but I believe that the instructor is continuing to offer beginner level stuff specifically for us. It is run through the same people we did nosework with, and Luna is definitely a favourite of theirs. The other people that go to this class have been either doing it for a while or have competed already.

The nosework people knew we had been wanting to do rally for a while but haven't had the funds. I think the rally instructor was intending to do something else or change the way the classes were going but when the nosework organizer asked her about it for me I heard something about "oh yea sure I can do that, I just can't do both." and then the nosework person insisting that "don't worry about it, this dog is very good".

So I get the impression that plans are being changed specifically to accommodate us. Which... I didn't ask for or need, but I feel pressure to live up to a certain expectation to not disappoint.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> No I haven't, but thinking about it more I think I know what's making me feel this way.
> 
> I was not involved in the whole conversation but I believe that the instructor is continuing to offer beginner level stuff specifically for us. It is run through the same people we did nosework with, and Luna is definitely a favourite of theirs. The other people that go to this class have been either doing it for a while or have competed already.
> 
> The nosework people knew we had been wanting to do rally for a while but haven't had the funds. I think the rally instructor was intending to do something else or change the way the classes were going but when the nosework organizer asked her about it for me I heard something about "oh yea sure I can do that, I just can't do both." and then the nosework person insisting that "don't worry about it, this dog is very good".
> 
> So I get the impression that plans are being changed specifically to accommodate us. Which... I didn't ask for or need, but I feel pressure to live up to a certain expectation to not disappoint.


In a Rally class that's super super easy though to accommodate people at different levels. Watson can do Rally at the excellent level (as long as he's on leash) and he does a lot of stuff very well. Our last Rally class was with confo dogs who couldn't heel or even sit on cue and had never seen Rally signs. It really doesn't matter, because you go into the ring by yourself and take your own time. And it's really easy to add in higher level signs next to easy signs. So one sign would say left turn, and the other would say left pivot, and we could choose which to do based on the level we were working on. Rally classes are highly adaptable to different levels of students, unlike agility or something. 

It'll be fine! Your beginner status won't hold anyone else back from working on advanced stuff during their turn.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> In a Rally class that's super super easy though to accommodate people at different levels. Watson can do Rally at the excellent level (as long as he's on leash) and he does a lot of stuff very well. Our last Rally class was with confo dogs who couldn't heel or even sit on cue and had never seen Rally signs. It really doesn't matter, because you go into the ring by yourself and take your own time. And it's really easy to add in higher level signs next to easy signs. So one sign would say left turn, and the other would say left pivot, and we could choose which to do based on the level we were working on. Rally classes are highly adaptable to different levels of students, unlike agility or something.
> 
> It'll be fine! Your beginner status won't hold anyone else back from working on advanced stuff during their turn.


Chiming in to agree with this! ^^

I teach a Rally class and because it's a class that is harder for us to fill with participants I offer it as a general Rally class to any level of participants. So I usually get some that have never even heard of Rally, some that are already competing and have titles already and everything in between. When I introduce skills I have the novice people work on the novice version and the advanced/excellent people work on those versions. Then when we run a course I have novice signs and advanced/excellent sign options as well. It's really not a hard modification in my experience. For example, novice might have a sit sign, for the advanced/excellent option I might have a sit/down/sit sign out. Next to a novice 180 degree turn, I will have a sit/pivot 180/sit option.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> I teach a Rally class and because it's a class that is harder for us to fill with participants I offer it as a general Rally class to any level of participants. So I usually get some that have never even heard of Rally, some that are already competing and have titles already and everything in between. When I introduce skills I have the novice people work on the novice version and the advanced/excellent people work on those versions. Then when we run a course I have novice signs and advanced/excellent sign options as well. It's really not a hard modification in my experience. For example, novice might have a sit sign, for the advanced/excellent option I might have a sit/down/sit sign out. Next to a novice 180 degree turn, I will have a sit/pivot 180/sit option.


We've never done Rally at a place where they could fill classes at different levels, so they've all been like this with people at every level. It's worked really well.

Watson and I are starting Rally again next month! My other option was a general "sports" class, but I figure he's tried all of the sports by now and I know what skills he has and which he lacks. I also like that Rally is individual, so I can really stop and work on his heeling and train the way I want, vs everybody doing stuff as a group and I can't just stop and take my time with something. And he loves Rally. I'd like to give agility another shot, but I think he'd be happy if we just worked on Rally forever. Heeling doodles are like his favorite thing to work on.


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## kadylady

After quite a long break (last trial was Dec 2014) I'm going to start Rally again with Luke and start working towards his RAE. We messed around with trying to get ready for obedience but it's just not want I'm going to want it to be with him. He loves Rally and is good at it, so that's what we will keep doing. The one thing I have to figure out though is how many runs he can mentally handle in a day, now that we have to enter both Adv and Exc for the RAE. The local trials that we go to do 2 trials on Friday, which would be 4 runs. That's a lot for him. He's tired after 2 runs, spaced out. So will see, we may have to just do the morning trial for the ones that have 2 a day. 

I'm starting to work Skye through more Rally/Obedience stuff now too. She may be ready for Novice rally by the local December trial. And I may attempt to try obedience with her. She's starting to get some really pretty heeling.


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## elrohwen

Yeah, I don't see Watson ever doing obedience at this point. I think he would get bored/stressed by long periods of silent heeling without the doodles of Rally. Plus the whole off leash thing limits us to a BN if we do go that route. 

I also really hate stays. Useful stays and waits are fine (like a SFE, or start line stay), but I have no interest in getting him ready to do the long sit or down. We practice them in classes a lot and even at 3 years old he can't go the full time without rewarding at some point, and he's a risk of getting up to socialize if he's bored. In the scheme of things, getting that behavior solid is not really a priority when I compare it to everything else I would rather work on.


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## Shep

I am probably the only person in the world who loves stays. There's something about teaching a crazy BC who will chase anything that moves that he can actually sit still and be calm -- even for a long time -- because I said so that really appeals to me. I start with sits on a raised platform and gradually transition off it. I lay a leash across the dog's front paws as a reminder that he is not to move those feet, either to stand up or lie down. I reward HEAVILY with great food. I put a long line or flexi on the dog and pull gently to get an opposition reflex going, and I love it when I feel the dog pull back -- that shows me he understands I don't want him to move even when it would be easy to move. Eventually I get to the point where I can play ball or tug with the other dogs while the dog I'm training watches and does a quiet sit stay. 

I LOVE this. But I'm a weirdo. Nearly everyone else in obedience hates them. What I hate is having a great run and then watching it go down the drain when the dog breaks his stays. That drives me insane, so I work really, really hard on stays.


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## elrohwen

Shep said:


> I am probably the only person in the world who loves stays. There's something about teaching a crazy BC who will chase anything that moves that he can actually sit still and be calm -- even for a long time -- because I said so that really appeals to me. I start with sits on a raised platform and gradually transition off it. I lay a leash across the dog's front paws as a reminder that he is not to move those feet, either to stand up or lie down. I reward HEAVILY with great food. I put a long line or flexi on the dog and pull gently to get an opposition reflex going, and I love it when I feel the dog pull back -- that shows me he understands I don't want him to move even when it would be easy to move. Eventually I get to the point where I can play ball or tug with the other dogs while the dog I'm training watches and does a quiet sit stay.
> 
> I LOVE this. But I'm a weirdo. Nearly everyone else in obedience hates them.


I'm very much an "it's good enough!" person about many things. When it comes to stays, if I have something functional and for about 30-60sec, I really don't care to go any farther. Watson is also far better when I throw distractions at him, but if we're just standing there being really boring he gets bored and gets up. So I love proofing stays, but even I get bored of standing there staring at him after a minute. Haha.


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## trainingjunkie

I understand Shep's position. There's so much for a dog and handler to learn in the long stays. There are so many layers to achieving the understanding and dependability. I never really understood it until I started in with the whippets. 

I had a very interesting problem with my whippets. They absolutely abhorred putting their hairless chests on the rubber mats. They simply wouldn't do it. Sits were no problem, but the downs were the end of the world. And whippets are funny... If you get mad or pressure them, they get much worse rather than better. I ended up buying rubber mats and shaping the down-stays in my living room. They already had wonderful down stays on carpets or grass, but I had to start over on rubber. As late as April, my dogs wouldn't stay down on rubber... I was so happy last month when my whippets started jumping on the mats WHILE I was dragging them to the living room, riding them all the way!


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## trainingjunkie

And one other challenge on stays: 


I have had to work very hard to get rid of this. I wasn't sure if it was going to be scored or not. I got the flip on Saturday but not on Sunday. I almost never get it in practice anymore. It didn't get scored on Saturday, and the judge was one of the NOC judges last year. She clearly saw my dog do it as she imitated him with her wrists and pointed to him so the stewards could see it!


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## Shep

The infamous Sighthound Sit! That's hilarious. My Novice A Italian Greyhound used to do this, and I've seen other Whippets, IG's, and Greyhounds do it. They also have trouble getting their butts all the way down. My IG's huge chest always got in the way on downs. His chest would be touching the mats (he hated it, too, but he eventually learned to put up with it), but his elbows would be up. He was a great little dog, and I so wish I had known what I know now when I had him.


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## trainingjunkie

Shep said:


> The infamous Sighthound Sit! That's hilarious. My Novice A Italian Greyhound used to do this, and I've seen other Whippets, IG's, and Greyhounds do it. They also have trouble getting their butts all the way down. My IG's huge chest always got in the way on downs. His chest would be touching the mats (he hated it, too, but he eventually learned to put up with it), but his elbows would be up. He was a great little dog, and I so wish I had known what I know now when I had him.


It's really funny how some people totally flip out about the Sighthound sit!!! I have had people almost yell at me to get him to a vet! They think I'm nuts when I just shrug it off and say that that's just the way he rolls! (I must admit to panicking about it when it first happened though!!!) 

How far did you get with your IG? I didn't know you were a Sighthound club member!


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## trainingjunkie

Oh, and here is a picture of the best sits that I could get out of this dog at the rally nationals last year...


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## Shep

I only got a CD on him, as he had luxating patellas that made it inadvisable for him to jump. And I was clueless about training in general then, so he never was as good as he could have been, which was totally my fault. He was adorable and deserved a much better handler. :-(


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## trainingjunkie

Shep said:


> I only got a CD on him, as he had luxating patellas that made it inadvisable for him to jump. And I was clueless about training in general then, so he never was as good as he could have been, which was totally my fault. He was adorable and deserved a much better handler. :-(


I am confident that he had a wonderful life with you. I think you should post pictures. In fact, I know you should!


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## Shep

IG's can be really nice workers. Here's a video of a friend of mine and her boy in the Open ring:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaVEsokaADs


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## trainingjunkie

Wow! That's super cute and what fabulous work! Every nice IG I have ever seen is super "boingie" Like little Tiggers!

If people can put CDXs on IGs, I have no excuse for failing with a whippet. That was great work!


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## Shep

They all have springs in their legs. One lady in my area is working on a UDX with her IG, and it is hilarious to watch him on the go-outs. She tells him go and he LEAPS out there in great big bounds. I don't think his feet touch the ground more than 3 or 4 times the whole way!


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## trainingjunkie

Shep said:


> They all have springs in their legs. One lady in my area is working on a UDX with her IG, and it is hilarious to watch him on the go-outs. She tells him go and he LEAPS out there in great big bounds. I don't think his feet touch the ground more than 3 or 4 times the whole way!


I would love to see that! It takes someone special and talented to put a UDX on an IG. I would love to know how she did it.

Only Mildly Related: Been working go-outs with my whippet. I am teaching a sustained nose touch on the stanchion. It has all been going very, very well. Super actually. Well... I moved the ring gates away from my yard fence for the very first time. I had started with them against the fence so they would be extra stable. On the first send to the stand-alone gating, my dog jumped everything and then back-jumped again and again, clearing the gates 8 times on the first send. He was just as proud as could be of himself.... Gazelles. Krazy Gazelles.


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## ireth0

We were supposed to start Rally this coming Monday but the prior week class got cancelled so everything got bumped a week. Boo!


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> We were supposed to start Rally this coming Monday but the prior week class got cancelled so everything got bumped a week. Boo!


Lame! Watson is starting Rally next week Wednesday I think. Should be fun. He really enjoyed the last rally class that we did.


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## elrohwen

We started Rally classes again last night. Watson was being a total weirdo outside the ring. The big garage door was partially open and he could see outside, but it was dark out, and that seemed to freak him out. I guess we'll sit away from the door next week. He kept trying to climb in my lap which is his usual sign of being nervous.

But he did well when he was actually working. The first pass was sluggish but he perked up on the second time through. His heeling has gone pretty flat though and he's not working consistently with his head up. It's rally appropriate and he's in position, but it's not consistently what I want to see. We haven't done much heeling at all in 6 months though so it's not surprising.


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## Shep

Scot (otherwise known as Marshmallow, Mushball, Worrywart, Mr. Environmentally Sensitive, etc.) has big problems with scent discrimination in distracting places (and occasionally in our own living room). He has recently had more meltdowns than usual, so I've gone back to tying the articles down, separating metal from leather, and trying to make him feel like the smartest dog ever born when he gets the right one (even though he can't get the wrong one with them tied down). 

And it's working! Last night I took him to an empty parking lot near a busy road and broke out the articles. He got the first one with only slight hesitation while he wondered whether he should sniff a nearby bush or not (he decided not to). When we set up for the second one, I heard a siren approaching. I gulped but sent him anyway because he was looking happy. He trotted out, searched quickly, got the right article without trying to pick up a wrong one, and trotted back, all while a screaming ambulance was racing by (he hates noise). I'm emphasizing "trotting" because the way he expresses worry or uncertainty, always, is to sloooow way down. If he's trotting he's happy. He was happy last night, and I was overjoyed. 

Doesn't take much to make a dog trainer grin.


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## trainingjunkie

So glad you're making progress! Yay for you guys!!!

My hyper-sensitive whippet with a quitter's spirit forced me to deviate from my past methods of teaching articles. We resorted to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_WQfdB0fwE

After a week, I was able to transition to full standing articles (mixed pile) with the turn. No proofing yet. When we go to new places, I am still using the washers for now. But in my living room, he is working a full pile with the retrieve! So excited!


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## elrohwen

I know basically zero about training scent articles, but I found this recent blog post really interesting:
http://denisefenzi.com/2015/03/09/scent-articles/


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## Shep

elrohwen said:


> I know basically zero about training scent articles, but I found this recent blog post really interesting:
> http://denisefenzi.com/2015/03/09/scent-articles/


That _is_ a good one! Thanks!


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## Shep

trainingjunkie said:


> So glad you're making progress! Yay for you guys!!!
> 
> My hyper-sensitive whippet with a quitter's spirit forced me to deviate from my past methods of teaching articles. We resorted to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_WQfdB0fwE
> 
> After a week, I was able to transition to full standing articles (mixed pile) with the turn. No proofing yet. When we go to new places, I am still using the washers for now. But in my living room, he is working a full pile with the retrieve! So excited!


I don't think I've ever seen that done with washers before, but I started Scot the same way, only with cookie tins (food in one, nothing in the others). I'm glad you're seeing progress!


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## trainingjunkie

My biggest training achievement lately has been directed jumping. Gator's directed jumping was always very exciting (read: random and unpredictable!) So I decided on a new method for my whippet. I expected it to take months. Instead, it took a week to get the send, the sit, and the jumps. Again, not heavily proofed, but the go-out point and deep, fast sit are clearly established and very pretty.

I taught my dog to perform a sustained nose target to the center stanchion (back to me) unless I call the sit. And if I get any forward drift on the sit, I can send the dog back to the stanchion for sustained nose contact. No extra targets, no reward at the go-out unless I walk it in (and the dog has to continue the sustained contact til I get there. A very pretty picture, nice enough that I went back and retrained Gator's to match. It cleared up all of the randomness in practice anyway. Looking forward to trying it out in trial next month.


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## Shep

trainingjunkie said:


> My biggest training achievement lately has been directed jumping. Gator's directed jumping was always very exciting (read: random and unpredictable!) So I decided on a new method for my whippet. I expected it to take months. Instead, it took a week to get the send, the sit, and the jumps. Again, not heavily proofed, but the go-out point and deep, fast sit are clearly established and very pretty.
> 
> I taught my dog to perform a sustained nose target to the center stanchion (back to me) unless I call the sit. And if I get any forward drift on the sit, I can send the dog back to the stanchion for sustained nose contact. No extra targets, no reward at the go-out unless I walk it in (and the dog has to continue the sustained contact til I get there. A very pretty picture, nice enough that I went back and retrained Gator's to match. It cleared up all of the randomness in practice anyway. Looking forward to trying it out in trial next month.


That sounds excellent! I like the touch method for go-outs. I've always trained a paw touch to the stanchion and have had good success with it. I also send the dog all the way a lot more often than I call the sit, probably about 20 touches for every sit. Really helps to keep the go-outs straight and long.


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## trainingjunkie

With Gator, my only UD, I tried teaching him to go straight without ever using a stanchion. He only saw stanchions at trial!?! (What was I thinking?) And I used clear dowels for retrieving. Was a hot mess. He learned to scoop 3 dowels into his mouth at a time and the possibility of a retrieve chained super-arousal into an already high arousal exercise. I actually built a bark into both the send and the jump. The sustained stanchion touch has actually softened his tendency to yipe.

I am going to take him out of retirement and try for a PUDX. 

I made so many stupid mistakes with that poor dog!


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## petpeeve

I'm curious ... what happens when there are no stanchions at a trial? 

For example, the dog is being sent towards a plain wall, or hockey arena boards, or fabric-style barrier, or rope in the case of some outdoor trials. Or if the stanchion turns out to be significantly off-center. 

I'm not saying it's a bad method, just that some other possibilities should also be taken into consideration right from the start. I try to avoid putting all of my eggs into one basket.


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## trainingjunkie

petpeeve said:


> I'm curious ... what happens when there are no stanchions at a trial?
> 
> For example, the dog is being sent towards a plain wall, or hockey arena boards, or fabric-style barrier, or rope in the case of some outdoor trials. Or if the stanchion turns out to be significantly off-center.
> 
> I'm not saying it's a bad method, just that some other possibilities should also be taken into consideration right from the start. I try to avoid putting all of my eggs into one basket.


Literally, every trial I have ever attended has them. Every single trial. I trained the first time without for that very reason, but around here, they always put up the gates.


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## MrsBoats

95% of the trials I've seen around here have had stanchions with the ring gates. There is one breed club here in RI who hosts an outside show and they are the only ones I know of who's ring gates have feet and no stanchions. Other than that....every where else uses traditional ring gates/stanchions. 

But...it doesn't hurt to be aware that can happen. 

FYI, I taught Lars' go-outs with a target box in the center of the ring in front of the middle stanchion.


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## Shep

Same here, stanchions at every trial. Makes it much easier. But yeah, in some places people aren't so lucky and have to use other methods. One of the best I ever saw was a lady from southern California where apparently baby gates and stanchions are rare and most shows are outdoors. She taught her dog to go out to an upside down plastic cup with a cookie on it. She used different colored cups until she was able to use a clear glass that you could hardly see from a distance, but with the cookie still there. I've also heard of people who show in areas where most trials have walls who use sticky notes stuck to walls and teach the dog to go out and nose-touch the paper.


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## petpeeve

> Same here, stanchions at every trial. Makes it much easier.


 You mean, we're more 'difficult' here in Canada ? wow that would be a first, lol . Then again we have THREE types of scent articles to train, so ... 

I don't know for sure but maybe it has something to do with the judge's ring set-up. AKC with directed retrieve often along the back side of the ring? perhaps making it more logical to have the DJ ing going from side to side where ring gates frequently separate the adjoining rings. We have seek back instead of DR and the exercise typically follows a heeling pattern similar to signals, and most ring set-ups I've encountered at least regionally here, have the go outs performed towards a 'bare' back wall if indoors. Again I don't really know because I have little to no actual ring experience with AKC. Teaching go outs does sound easier for you guys though, in theory.


----------



## ireth0

Today we finally start rally after almost 4 months being out of classes!


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Today we finally start rally after almost 4 months being out of classes!


Yay! I'm excited to hear how it goes.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Yay! I'm excited to hear how it goes.


Thanks!

Honestly I am excited but also a little nervous. It's been a while so I'm just going in with no expectations, lol.


----------



## MrsBoats

> Teaching go outs does sound easier for you guys though, in theory.


In theory...it does sound easier. But in reality sometimes, not so much.  

But....if Utility were easy, then everyone would do it.


----------



## ireth0

So back from rally class and I'm so stoked to continue. I didn't want class to end! Give me more games to play with my dog please! Hahaha

We worked on some basic foundation stuff. Eye contact, maintained sits, finding front, hand touches, ignoring distractions, and some go outs around a plunger. Some of which we've already learned. But it was just so FUN. 

It felt so frigging good to be in class again and working together and learning and ugh. I felt like Luna needed this just as much as I did. She was totally with me and into it and 'okay, what are we going to do now?' as soon as she saw the facility we train at from the car she started getting excited. 

I love our instructor so far. She's offered good insight and answered my questions and is very upbeat and all about making it fun for the dog. She said that the day her dog stops finding a given sport fun is the day they stop doing it, which is my line of thinking as well. 

Pumped for our homework and to go back to class next week!

Oh yea, our class consists of;
Luna
GSD we used to do nosework with
Some type of hound. I wanna say redbone but I am not well enough versed in hounds. 
Dobe we used to do nosework with
A golden/golden mix. It looks golden-y but is thinner than I picture most goldens. (maybe an adolescent?)


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> So back from rally class and I'm so stoked to continue. I didn't want class to end! Give me more games to play with my dog please! Hahaha
> 
> We worked on some basic foundation stuff. Eye contact, maintained sits, finding front, hand touches, ignoring distractions, and some go outs around a plunger. Some of which we've already learned. But it was just so FUN.
> 
> It felt so frigging good to be in class again and working together and learning and ugh. I felt like Luna needed this just as much as I did. She was totally with me and into it and 'okay, what are we going to do now?' as soon as she saw the facility we train at from the car she started getting excited.
> 
> I love our instructor so far. She's offered good insight and answered my questions and is very upbeat and all about making it fun for the dog. She said that the day her dog stops finding a given sport fun is the day they stop doing it, which is my line of thinking as well.
> 
> Pumped for our homework and to go back to class next week!
> 
> Oh yea, our class consists of;
> Luna
> GSD we used to do nosework with
> Some type of hound. I wanna say redbone but I am not well enough versed in hounds.
> Dobe we used to do nosework with
> A golden/golden mix. It looks golden-y but is thinner than I picture most goldens. (maybe an adolescent?)


That's awesome! Glad you had fun. It's nice that they're starting with some foundations instead of just setting up a course and letting you go at it.

Out of curiosity, what did she say going around the plunger was for? Just as a shaping exercise? I can't think of anything in Rally that would require that behavior, though it's a common one to teach for agility foundations.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> That's awesome! Glad you had fun. It's nice that they're starting with some foundations instead of just setting up a course and letting you go at it.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what did she say going around the plunger was for? Just as a shaping exercise? I can't think of anything in Rally that would require that behavior, though it's a common one to teach for agility foundations.


It seemed like more of a motivational kind of game.

Oh yea, she said you can use it to then have your dog driving back to you to heel or front position. So that they're excited about running back to you and getting into position.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> It seemed like more of a motivational kind of game.
> 
> Oh yea, she said you can use it to then have your dog driving back to you to heel or front position. So that they're excited about running back to you and getting into position.


That makes sense. I didn't think of using it in that way, though I have seen people use a send around a cone to encourage drive and energy in heeling so it makes sense.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> That makes sense. I didn't think of using it in that way, though I have seen people use a send around a cone to encourage drive and energy in heeling so it makes sense.


Yea it was really fun. I mean, at this stage we're literally running to the plunger with them and then physically guiding them around and running back, but of course over time you stay farther away and etc. 

Luna is a dog where you have to get really animated to bring her energy up (unless she's by chance already in a peppy mood) so I sound/look like a crazy person doing it. "OMG LUNA ARE YOU READY? ARE YOU SO FRIGGING READY?! LET'S GOO!!!" *runs to the cone, casually guides dog around* "OH MY GOD YOU DID IT! WOOHOO!! WHAT A GOOD JOB!!! YOU'RE SO SMART! WELL DONE FISH!!! GOOD JOB!" *accompanied by rewards/pats/scruffs/etc.*


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## MrsBoats

elrohwen said:


> Out of curiosity, what did she say going around the plunger was for? Just as a shaping exercise? I can't think of anything in Rally that would require that behavior, though it's a common one to teach for agility foundations.



I could see someone using that for the #210 sign in Excellent....send to jump where the dog has to be sent to the jump from 10 feet away. The dog takes the jump and must come back to the handler and be in heel position before the handler crosses the plane of the jump. Most obedience dogs do not have a go on and jump skill in their toolbox. In excellent where #210 is present on the course, you can easily see which dogs are agility dogs and which dogs are obedience only dogs. The agility dogs will take the jump....the obedience dogs won't go ahead and jump.


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> I could see someone using that for the #210 sign in Excellent....send to jump where the dog has to be sent to the jump from 10 feet away. The dog takes the jump and must come back to the handler and be in heel position before the handler crosses the plane of the jump. Most obedience dogs do not have a go on and jump skill in their toolbox. In excellent where #210 is present on the course, you can easily see which dogs are agility dogs and which dogs are obedience only dogs. The agility dogs will take the jump....the obedience dogs won't go ahead and jump.


That's true. I didn't think of that sign. Probably not something that class will encounter any time soon but it's a good skill to have. It's definitely a basic foundation skill for agility but you're right that I've never seen it in an obedience class (which is why I was curious about the instructor's explanation for doing it). Denise Fenzi does use a lot for her "obility" training and in her heeling games class. And it's just a fun and relatively easy way to teach a class about shaping new behaviors.


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## MrsBoats

There is no exercise in obedience where you would send a dog to a jump away from you without a dumbbell retrieve tied to it.


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> There is no exercise in obedience where you would send a dog to a jump away from you without a dumbbell retrieve tied to it.


Not even thinking about jumping specifically, but you do have a Go Out. So some basic foundation of teaching the dog to move away from you would be useful. ETA: Though not in Rally, of course. 

I like how Denise uses going around a cone or jump standard in her heeling training. Basically as a release from the pressure of heeling and to encourage the dog to run and move and come back to the heeling with more energy. I never took her obility class but Heeling Games had some fun stuff.


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## MrsBoats

elrohwen said:


> Not even thinking about jumping specifically, but you do have a Go Out. So some basic foundation of teaching the dog to move away from you would be useful. ETA: Though not in Rally, of course.


Go outs are traditionally taught with sending a dog to food on a ring gate stanction, not going around plunger. I taught Lars his go out with running to a box where he has to turn tight and sit in the box. One of my biggest obedience pet peeves is watching a dog sniff the ring gate looking for that food when the handler is yelling out sit to their dog. You want the dog to run out straight and do a tight spin an sit in place. You lose points if your dog veers to the right or the left while running away from you. I think a going out and running around plunger would teach sloppy go out criteria in the foundation...but that's just me.



> Basically as a release from the pressure of heeling and to encourage the dog to run and move and come back to the heeling with more energy.


I have to chuckle...I don't need any more energy Lars' heeling otherwise he would burst into flames. LOL I'm the oddball trying to keep my dog below threshold and calm while heeling.


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## elrohwen

Oh yeah, I didn't mean that you would teach the behavior of a go out by going around a plunger or come. Just that it's a fun foundation behavior to teach the dog to move away from you. To me, foundations are fun games to teach new dogssome basic things that might come in handy later. I'm not thinking of foundations as working towards a specific finished behavior.


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## MrsBoats

elrohwen said:


> Oh yeah, I didn't mean that you would teach the behavior of a go out by going around a plunger or come. Just that it's a fun foundation behavior to teach the dog to move away from you. To me, foundations are fun games to teach new dogssome basic things that might come in handy later. I'm not thinking of foundations as working towards a specific finished behavior.


From my observations of the obedience world....people will usually start the higher level exercises while their dog is in the level below. Most people start Open exercises when their dogs are solid and/or showing in Novice. Utility exercises are usually introduced when the dog is solid and/or showing in Open. Lars started Open when he earned his CD. He got that in three shows....didn't plan on that. Then he started Utility work when he earned his CDX....that took 4 shows. Didn't plan on that either. The only thing I taught as a foundation thing was him taking the dumbbell. I always teach my obedience exercises with the end product of the performance in the ring in mind. That way, I don't have to untrain bad or sloppy habits later on.


----------



## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> From my observations of the obedience world....people will usually start the higher level exercises while their dog is in the level below. Most people start Open exercises when their dogs are solid and/or showing in Novice. Utility exercises are usually introduced when the dog is solid and/or in Open. Lars started Open when he earned his CD. He got that in three shows....didn't plan on that. Then he started Utility work when he earned his CDX....that took 4 shows. Didn't plan on that either. The only thing I taught as a foundation thing was him taking the dumbbell. I always teach my obedience exercises with the end product of the performance in the ring in mind. That way, I don't have to untrain bad or sloppy habits later on.


I don't think I'm being explaining myself well. I'm talking about foundation exercises that you would teach a puppy or a new dog trainer in a class. Like if you had a "performance foundations" class. You would probably teach targeting, going to a mat, and maybe going around a cone. None of those are finished behaviors or even the first steps to a specific finished behavior necessarily. They are ways to teach the dog to work with you and learn that can later be valuable to sport training. I'm not talking at all about how people start obedience behaviors specifically or what skill they are training. I'm talking about foundations outside of specific sports. 

Maybe people don't see value in foundations that don't have a direct application to their sport? I don't know, I don't train with serious obedience people who only do obedience. But I see the skill of moving away from you, to a target or around a cone or whatever, as something useful to train a new dog no matter what the sport. Rally less than obedience or agility, since the dog is usually working close, which is why I was curious why the trainer selected that instead of something else. Personally I feel like the more things I teach my dogs, even if they are silly foundation behaviors that have no ultimate goal or use, the better off we will be in the long run because we're learning to work together and learn new skills. That might not be how most obedience people think about it, I don't know, but that seems to be what people are doing in agility. I see the "It's All Tricks" mentally all around. But I'm not training for advanced obedience competition so I don't really care if working on little tricks or behaviors is going to screw up go outs or articles or whatever

And as far as Denise's use of it, I don't think I explained that well either. She has fairly high drive IPO dogs (until her most recent addition) and she has found use in adding sort of agility type behaviors into traditional obedience training. So it's not about whether the dog is fast or drivey or whatever, that's not the only use.


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## ireth0

I would like to say that it was obvious that most of the dogs in our class are not used to working with their handlers in the same way Luna and I do. 

I don't even mean that we're at a higher level or something like that (I've never done a Rally thing before in my life and at least 1 person in this class has competed at novice level), I mean just from a perspective of teamwork and communication and having fun working together. 

Lots of people in the group in general come from punishment based training backgrounds, so using rewards and working -with- your dog instead of always telling them 'no' is a new and somewhat foreign concept to them. 

Specifically the instructor would ask us not to correct our dogs and allow them to make decisions and become thinking dogs. We have quite a bit of experience in that compared to some dogs I've seen that are shut down because they're afraid of doing something wrong.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I would like to say that it was obvious that most of the dogs in our class are not used to working with their handlers in the same way Luna and I do.
> 
> I don't even mean that we're at a higher level or something like that (I've never done a Rally thing before in my life and at least 1 person in this class has competed at novice level), I mean just from a perspective of teamwork and communication and having fun working together.
> 
> Lots of people in the group in general come from punishment based training backgrounds, so using rewards and working -with- your dog instead of always telling them 'no' is a new and somewhat foreign concept to them.
> 
> Specifically the instructor would ask us not to correct our dogs and allow them to make decisions and become thinking dogs. We have quite a bit of experience in that compared to some dogs I've seen that are shut down because they're afraid of doing something wrong.


That's cool that she recognized that about the class and is teaching them about positive training and working together in general. Hopefully they see how much fun you and Luna are having and start having just as much fun


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## MrsBoats

I think you need more time and exposure in the obedience world. Staunch obedience people seem to have no need to teach things outside their world of obedience. There are a good number of obedience people who do nothing other than competition obedience...and they typically have a set schedule of when to teach what and how to teach it. People like me who do multiple sports like obedience and agility or obedience or field work...have a much more broad tool box and more fluid schedules. But....that being said, I am very, very careful when teaching things to make sure there is no gray area and overlap of obedience and agility. I do not want my dogs to become confused or have them second guess the exercise because the foundations or training overlap between the two sports. I've very careful in my command selection to how I set my dogs up to start work, to the collars they wear for the specific sports. I do always have that end performance in the back of my mind when working. I want no confusion between me and my dogs when we're working. I tend to teach things to my dogs when they need that information....not sooner when they might use it in inappropriate times (or when they aren't mentally mature enough to handle the information.)

That whole sending around a cone thing in heeling? I could see Lars catch a glimpse of a movement from me that looks similar to telling him to do that. He would rocket across the rally ring and run around the figure 8 or serpentine and come back to me all sorts of fired up. That happened a lot in agility when I would try to do an opposite arm to catch his head or attempt to rotate for a front cross....he would see me slightly rotate in his direction....and he would rocket off away from me in the direction my shoulders pointed.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> That's cool that she recognized that about the class and is teaching them about positive training and working together in general. Hopefully they see how much fun you and Luna are having and start having just as much fun


I think, like myself and a few others in the club who are +R based (not all purely +R but you know what I mean), we try to show by example rather than preaching. Most of these people have been working dogs longer than I've been alive, who am I to tell them their way is wrong? It's easier just to show by example. If they ask how I did xyz, I tell them. 

I think she's trying to do the same thing. She knows they are punishment based, but is trying to gently show another way of being without being all "WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS" in their face.


----------



## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> I think you need more time and exposure in the obedience world. Staunch obedience people seem to have no need to teach things outside their world of obedience.


Haha, yeah, at this point, not really interested. Honestly that's one thing that has kind of turned me off from obedience. Sometimes it seems to lack joy. While the agility people are more "have fun with your dog! train tricks! yay!" I really do not about high level titles and the amount of sheer work required to get there. I'm way too lazy and unambitious. Most of the obedience people I've worked with (or at least liked working with) do other sports as well. Even the super serious people with multiple OTCH dogs who I took a seminar with - the one woman does field and agility with her dogs as well.


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## MrsBoats

And....because of his agility background, Lars is NOT allowed to take jumps in rally without my arm extended out to support the jump. He has been known to lock on to jumps from 15 feet away and rocket off away from me and take them whether or not the course meant for him to do it. A lot of judges are known to put turns or side step rights on top of the backside of the jump. Gray areas between rally and agility. We did a lot of heeling past jumps with my arm locked onto my abdomen so he understood the difference of taking the jump and not taking the jump. 

So....what I'm saying...if you want to teach your dog all the things when they are young, be smart about it in ways that it doesn't come back to bite you in the butt in prime time.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I think, like myself and a few others in the club who are +R based (not all purely +R but you know what I mean), we try to show by example rather than preaching. Most of these people have been working dogs longer than I've been alive, who am I to tell them their way is wrong? It's easier just to show by example. If they ask how I did xyz, I tell them.
> 
> I think she's trying to do the same thing. She knows they are punishment based, but is trying to gently show another way of being without being all "WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS" in their face.


One nice thing about the place that I train is I think most people are pretty +R. The facility is and the trainers are (for the most part) and people aren't going to stick around and take classes if they are using primarily compulsion. They do recommend prong collars occasionally, and are not purely positive or anything, but the general philosophy of most people there is pretty similar within some amount of normal variation. I tried a place that was pretty heavy compulsion training (just took a private lesson) and I couldn't imagine being in a class where everybody was working that way. Seems like it wouldn't be fun at all.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I tried a place that was pretty heavy compulsion training (just took a private lesson) and I couldn't imagine being in a class where everybody was working that way. Seems like it wouldn't be fun at all.


Right? They do a basic obedience class that is compulsion based and jeeze... The raised voices that come from that room. Not just loud but angry voices. 

We almost got used as a distraction dog once for them but by coincidence got out of it. I can only imagine walking around while people jerked on their dogs for barking at us.


----------



## elrohwen

MrsBoats said:


> And....because of his agility background, Lars is NOT allowed to take jumps in rally without my arm extended out to support the jump. He has been known to lock on to jumps from 15 feet away and rocket off away from me and take them whether or not the course meant for him to do it. A lot of judges are known to put turns or side step rights on top of the backside of the jump. Gray areas between rally and agility. We did a lot of heeling past jumps with my arm locked onto my abdomen so he understood the difference of taking the jump and not taking the jump.
> 
> So....what I'm saying...if you want to teach your dog all the things when they are young, be smart about it in ways that it doesn't come back to bite you in the butt in prime time.


Denise's Heeling Games class actually had a lesson on using jumps in your heeling (for a similar reason as going around a cone - break things up, encourage dog to find heel again, etc). And it was hard for Watson to make that discrimination once we were right next to the jump. And he's not a dog who loves jumping or is super jump focused either. It was a fun thing to work on. That's the stuff I'm more interested in - is this fun and did we learn how to communicate better by doing this skill? Beyond that I'm not hugely concerned about how it applies in the ring.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Right? They do a basic obedience class that is compulsion based and jeeze... The raised voices that come from that room. Not just loud but angry voices.
> 
> We almost got used as a distraction dog once for them but by coincidence got out of it. I can only imagine walking around while people jerked on their dogs for barking at us.


The entire time I was working with her, Watson's whole demeanor was like "is it over? can we please go home now?" I'm sure I was doing it all wrong and confusing him more, but still. Even if my timing were better it's just not fun to pop your dog with a prong and watch them get sadder and sadder.


----------



## MrsBoats

elrohwen said:


> Denise's Heeling Games class actually had a lesson on using jumps in your heeling (for a similar reason as going around a cone - break things up, encourage dog to find heel again, etc). And it was hard for Watson to make that discrimination once we were right next to the jump. And he's not a dog who loves jumping or is super jump focused either. It was a fun thing to work on. That's the stuff I'm more interested in - is this fun and did we learn how to communicate better by doing this skill? Beyond that I'm not hugely concerned about how it applies in the ring.


And that's where we can agree to disagree.  The stuff I'm more interested in - the show ring with great scores and placements.


----------



## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> The entire time I was working with her, Watson's whole demeanor was like "is it over? can we please go home now?" I'm sure I was doing it all wrong and confusing him more, but still. Even if my timing were better it's just not fun to pop your dog with a prong and watch them get sadder and sadder.


Do you know what the funny thing is though?

I have never physically corrected Luna in the traditional physical correction leash pop way. (I've physically moved her or things like that)

I am pretty sure we would get refused at the local dog daycare because they ask what training you've done and where and refuse dogs with a history of corrections or compulsion based training. The owner is VERY +R and refuses them on the basis that that type of training can make dogs aggressive. 

I don't do that kind of training... but I hang out with that crowd so I must be bad right? lol


----------



## petpeeve

My one guy was taught to continuously nose target the handle of a plunger while circling around it at the same time. As a result he'll run quite a long distance virtually STRAIGHT out to it and remain nice and TIGHT to it. Theoretically at least it would be easy enough to modify slightly so it includes a 'stop / sit facing me' halfway through. Huge visual to eventually have to remove from the picture though, so not very practical outside of establishing a certain amount of muscle memory and enhancing drive to a specific location. 

On the other hand, the general behaviour did actually transfer well for polishing his around finishes and getting those nice and tight too. IMO creativity has a solid place in training. In fact to me that's what training is most often about - exploring those little things that possibly seem a little quirky at first .. a little off the beaten path perhaps, .. but finding in the end they work handily for the individual team once their secondary value has been discovered.


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## elrohwen

Last night's Rally class was awesome. The course was pretty hard (mostly because there were a million signs). I heel quickly, and get distracted with paying attention to Watson, and I blew through like 3 signs the first time through. lol And some of the typical errors of not putting in enough of a pause on the halts, or putting in a sit where it wasn't required.

But Watson was fantastic. Still kinda weird outside the ring, but once he was working he was such a happy little spaniel. Great heeling (lots of his recent lagging/forging issues seemed to clear up with a little work), heads up, super nice left turns and pivots. He's such a good little dog.


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## ireth0

Yay good job Watson!


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yay good job Watson!


He may never enjoy agility (not sure obstacles in general are his thing) but if we can get the off leash stuff pulled together I think Rally will really be his sport. He loves heeling doodles and that's pretty much what Rally is. Maybe someday we could work up to more formal heeling like in obedience, but I don't really care either way. I think our heeling itself is more or less there, but he deflates on long straight sections - either he gets bored or he worries, not sure. But he loves the ever changing aspect of Rally.


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## ireth0

Maybe with the longer duration he starts to doubt himself? Kinda like stage fright I guess. If you're engaged in doing something talking to a group isn't so bad, but then you have to pause for a bit and suddenly become aware of everyone watching you and it all falls apart, hahaha.

We were doing our homework yesterday and fronts are interesting for us. Luna's height is just so that I have to reward at crotch level so her nose is shoved into my crotch each time. Good thing I don't have dignity about dog things.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Maybe with the longer duration he starts to doubt himself? Kinda like stage fright I guess. If you're engaged in doing something talking to a group isn't so bad, but then you have to pause for a bit and suddenly become aware of everyone watching you and it all falls apart, hahaha.


Yes, I'm sure this is a big part of it. It's quiet, it's formal, and it's just a straight line. Honestly that's not even something we've practiced all that much either which doesn't help. Also, if he thinks he knows where we're going, it's easier for him to check out and look around. If he might have to do something crazy any second he pays more attention.

ETA: And if he doesn't deflate, he starts forging. He doesn't have to keep his butt back if I'm not throwing in left turns, so he kind of creeps around in front of me in excitement. Haha



> We were doing our homework yesterday and fronts are interesting for us. Luna's height is just so that I have to reward at crotch level so her nose is shoved into my crotch each time. Good thing I don't have dignity about dog things.


Hahaha. Hey, sounds perfect to me. She can target your crotch and get a perfect front every time. LOL


----------



## Kyllobernese

Over the winter we are going to be doing Agility and obedience training on Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays. I am hoping we can get enough of us interested in Rally to start doing some courses in that also. I know there is a bit of a difference in the signs for CKC Rally and Caro Rally but probably most of it will be the same.


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## ireth0

Okay so we had our 2nd class tonight!

The first thing we did was an exercise with just the handlers. We paired up and one person was the dog and one was the handler, and the handler had to use their body language to guide the other person around the course. I failed horribly mainly because I was trying to figure out what to do at most of the signs, but Luna did a fantastic down stay the whole time I was doing the exercise! I was so proud of her! We've never done stays at that level before. 

Then we worked on rewarding the dogs for choosing to be in heel position while we walked around the room. Luna was lagging a bit behind for some sections but for the most part she did really well. 

After that we worked on our maintained sits and Luna did much better in class from our practices at home. I think she's really getting the idea now. 

We did some eye contact exercises, and then worked on pivoting on a stool which Luna did great with since we've done that before. We ended off the class with some quick practice for front position. 

Overall a really great class. Again Luna had great attention, many times I dropped the leash because it was just easier handling-wise and she was totally engaged with me and didn't care. 

Feeling really good and can't wait until next week!


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## ireth0

Oh yea, we also did an exercise where we put them in a sit stay, walked away a couple steps, and then called them and rewarded when they got to heel position.


----------



## elrohwen

I would love to try handling a person around a Rally class. That would be such a fun exercise. We've done the game where you have to shape them into doing something specific, which is also hilarious.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I would love to try handling a person around a Rally class. That would be such a fun exercise. We've done the game where you have to shape them into doing something specific, which is also hilarious.


I was really bad at it, lol. The signs weren't displayed, the handlers just had the course map, so between trying to read the map, figure out what I was supposed to do, check on Luna occasionally, not run into the cones, and not run into my partner... yea, I was pretty terrible, lol. I'm pretty sure for a good chunk of it I was verbalizing what we were doing way more than I should have been, hahaha. 

But eh, it's a learning experience! Actually doing a course is going to be like that the first few times too, just takes practice.

I know I use body language with Luna way more than I did on that course, so I'm not super concerned that my person handling abilities were lacking.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I was really bad at it, lol. The signs weren't displayed, the handlers just had the course map, so between trying to read the map, figure out what I was supposed to do, check on Luna occasionally, not run into the cones, and not run into my partner... yea, I was pretty terrible, lol. I'm pretty sure for a good chunk of it I was verbalizing what we were doing way more than I should have been, hahaha.
> 
> But eh, it's a learning experience! Actually doing a course is going to be like that the first few times too, just takes practice.
> 
> I know I use body language with Luna way more than I did on that course, so I'm not super concerned that my person handling abilities were lacking.


I couldn't have done it without actual signs out (which obviously defeats the purpose because then the "dog" can see them too). And I could not have done it while my dog was on a down stay and I was worried about him (unless the instructor was standing on his leash or something in case he broke). 

It's definitely hard at first until you learn the signs better. I remember being so slow and awkward going through courses when I had to read each sign and figure out what the heck it meant. I started practicing with the Train 'Em Task cards and flipping to random ones and doing them, or looking for hard ones that I wasn't too sure of. Now I'm much more smooth.


----------



## ireth0

Oh yea! Something else really cool that happened. We were in between exercises and the instructor was explaining the next thing we were going to do. Luna was sitting in front of me looking at me but I was paying attention to the instructor. Since she wasn't getting anything, she decided to -walk over to heel position and sit-. I was so frigging shocked!


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Oh yea! Something else really cool that happened. We were in between exercises and the instructor was explaining the next thing we were going to do. Luna was sitting in front of me looking at me but I was paying attention to the instructor. Since she wasn't getting anything, she decided to -walk over to heel position and sit-. I was so frigging shocked!


Hahaha. Nice! You guys are going to be a fancy team soon


----------



## ireth0

Last night we had a couple new people to class, so we worked on some foundation work. 

Did some eye contact with distractions, resisting distractions while heeling/walking (a ball on the floor), hand targeting, rewarding for the dog choosing to be in heel position... (all with difficulty customized to the level the dog was at) We did some work on sphinx downs too which went really well.

At the end we did a call to heel exercise and Luna was the only dog able to hold a stay while their owner walked away. I was so proud! 

This class we had an elderly gentleman (I'd guess 70's at least) with a great dane and whooo doggie. He keeps her on such a tight leash because I'm sure otherwise he couldn't control her. 

It was a little bit irritating because the instructor had to explain to him what marking a behaviour was and all of that basic stuff, and he either wasn't really listening/caring or just can't physically do it. She would tell him not to lure the dog away from the distraction and then 2 seconds later there he was luring her plain as anything. Or telling him to mark with a 'yes' or etc when she did the behaviour and he just wouldn't. 

Oh well! Still has a great class even if there was a lot of standing around listening, lol.


----------



## elrohwen

Glad you guys had a great class! It's nice that she's teaching foundation skills instead of just setting up a course and letting you have at it.


I have no idea what I'm going to do with Hazel's obedience class when this class finishes in a couple weeks. She is doing everything in the Better than Basic class perfectly. With Watson I had to re-take this class 3 times because he was so wild. Lol. So my first thought is to re-take it anyway. I don't want to put her in something formal like Rally or a competition ob class - her heeling is not even close to where I would like it to be for a class like that and she's still a baby puppy. It needs to be something fun where expectations are low and there's no drilling. Usually the facility does "fun" obedience classes - the basic obedience stuff in more of a games format and good for different levels of dogs, but I don't think they have anything like that coming up. They also recently did an "Intro to Dog Sports" class which also would have been fun for her, but I don't think they're doing it next term. I'd hate to not do anything, because I think it's so good for her to keep working around other dogs right now.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Glad you guys had a great class! It's nice that she's teaching foundation skills instead of just setting up a course and letting you have at it.


Yea she actually talked about that a bit last class. She was saying that some people start by just letting you do courses over and over but the way she does it she teaches us the foundations so we can do all the behaviours before introducing the signs. That way you have less to try and process at once.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea she actually talked about that a bit last class. She was saying that some people start by just letting you do courses over and over but the way she does it she teaches us the foundations so we can do all the behaviours before introducing the signs. That way you have less to try and process at once.


The Rally class we usually do is by permission of the instructor, so they know if you have the necessary foundations before they let you sign up (or you can do it with a young inexperienced dog if they know you have done Rally before with other dogs). But if you're starting with beginners it makes a lot of sense to do it the way your instructor is doing it.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> The Rally class we usually do is by permission of the instructor, so they know if you have the necessary foundations before they let you sign up (or you can do it with a young inexperienced dog if they know you have done Rally before with other dogs). But if you're starting with beginners it makes a lot of sense to do it the way your instructor is doing it.


Yea. I think if we had to we have enough foundational skills from the previous classes we've done to get by that way. But it's helpful to have the input from an instructor on what we need to change/improve vs trying to figure it out on your own having no rally experience. 

Even just doing that mock walkthrough with another person my brain was all over the place trying to process the signs, not run into things, and be somewhat aware of what my 'dog' was doing. Never mind also trying to train a dog while managing all that other stuff. 

Once we get to that level I know it's going to be a lot of fumbling on my part getting my position relative to the sign right so neither of us are knocking things over, lol.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Once we get to that level I know it's going to be a lot of fumbling on my part getting my position relative to the sign right so neither of us are knocking things over, lol.


We still knock things over occasionally. lol


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## ireth0

What are people's thoughts about training a different word for a sphinx down?

Luna already knows 'down' as a general 'just lay down' (wasn't something I was concerned about from a general obedience standpoint when I initially taught it), and I know around the house when my bf asks her to down he isn't going to be picky about how she does it so I'm wondering if that might confuse her?

The sphinx downs we did in class this week and in practice at home we haven't paired a word with yet.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> What are people's thoughts about training a different word for a sphinx down?
> 
> Luna already knows 'down' as a general 'just lay down' (wasn't something I was concerned about from a general obedience standpoint when I initially taught it), and I know around the house when my bf asks her to down he isn't going to be picky about how she does it so I'm wondering if that might confuse her?
> 
> The sphinx downs we did in class this week and in practice at home we haven't paired a word with yet.


I think it is useful if you want to do competitive obedience. I don't think it's necessary for dabbling around in dog sports. My dogs, at least, are taught to do a sphynx down, but they will also roll over on one hip if I tell them to "stay" or my body language otherwise tells them we will be there for a while. It works for us and I don't feel like having two cues for "down". But if you're going to get to the point of long down stays and down on recall it is useful for sure to have a quick drop cue vs a relaxed down cue.


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## MrsBoats

My command for the sphinx down, the drop on recall, or to down on an agility table is "Down." Some people will use the IPO version - Platz. You could also use "Drop." 

My relaxed down stay command is "Rest."

That significant other thing using commands that mean something to you and something different to them is real. My husband really jacked up my teaching Sam heeling because heel to him meant just LLW...it meant attention heeling to me. It took me a while to figure out what was really going on. My heel command now is "strut." There is no way on this planet that word would come out of my husband's mouth. It's kind of funny....my dogs don't have "heel" in their command vocab and if they were asked that, they wouldn't even know what to do with that. LOL My LLW command is "Let's go" and my husband finds that easy to use too.


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## elrohwen

Yeah, my husband would also mess up multiple down cues. I would have to use "down" as a settle cue and something else for an obedience down. Not drop, because he says that all the time if they have something in their mouths (whether I've trained them what drop means or not). 

For Hazel, I started with only teaching the fold back down. I didn't ask her to down from a sit for a couple weeks, and even now I try to mostly have her drop from a stand. That has made the majority of her down fast and pretty. I still have time to add in a settle cue which I may try. We'll see.

Watson just uses down (which he sometimes does as fold back, sometimes he sits briefly first), and if I say "stay" or "chill out" he'll roll onto a hip. Or if I'm sitting in a chair he usually assumes I want a relaxed down. Works well enough for what we need most of the time though it's a bit sloppy.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I think it is useful if you want to do competitive obedience. I don't think it's necessary for dabbling around in dog sports. My dogs, at least, are taught to do a sphynx down, but they will also roll over on one hip if I tell them to "stay" or my body language otherwise tells them we will be there for a while. It works for us and I don't feel like having two cues for "down". But if you're going to get to the point of long down stays and down on recall it is useful for sure to have a quick drop cue vs a relaxed down cue.


It might be different rules, but for us I was told we could lose points if the judge thinks she did a sit-then-down by putting her butt down first. 

We are also learning the behaviours presuming we may also want to do Obedience (our instructor keeps insisting it's more fun, lol) so we may be focusing more on specifics than you would in a strictly Rally class. 

I mean, you all know I'm not a "we need to be the very best like no one ever was" kind of person, I just don't want to hold us back where it can be avoided.


----------



## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> It might be different rules, but for us I was told we could lose points if the judge thinks she did a sit-then-down by putting her butt down first.
> 
> We are also learning the behaviours presuming we may also want to do Obedience (our instructor keeps insisting it's more fun, lol) so we may be focusing more on specifics than you would in a strictly Rally class.
> 
> I mean, you all know I'm not a "we need to be the very best like no one ever was" kind of person, I just don't want to hold us back where it can be avoided.


Yes, I believe they have the same rule in AKC Rally. My dogs understand to go down quickly from whatever position they are in. I don't use a different cue, but they should drop down if they are starting from a stand. It is easier for Hazel than for Watson because I taught her from a stand first, but as long as you work on the down from a stand I don't think you need a different cue. The people I know who use different cues are doing it for a relaxed curled down vs a drop down, not different cues if the down is from a sit or from a stand. 

I would keep working on a quick drop from a stand, and just make sure that's what she's doing when you cue a down from a stand and you'll be fine with the same cue. It's like saying "sit" whether the dog is in a stand or in a down - you will probably have to train them as separate skills, but you can use the same cue to mean "sit from whatever position you are in"


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## ireth0

But down vs sphinx down isn't the same end behaviour in the same way a sit is. (or mostly is, I know some people have sloppy sits but you know what I mean)

What it needs to look like is different.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> But down vs sphinx down isn't the same end behaviour in the same way a sit is. (or mostly is, I know some people have sloppy sits but you know what I mean)
> 
> What it needs to look like is different.


I guess I'm not understanding then. If you ask for a down from a sit or a down from a stand, the end behavior should look the same - a sphynx down with the dog balanced and all feet tucked in. The movement the dog has to make to get there is different, but no more than sitting from a stand or sitting from a down is a different movement. If you want a down curled on to one hip for long stays or settles, then that can have a different cue and lots of people give that a different cue, but that's not as necessary in Rally where you aren't doing long downs.


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## sassafras

This is why I will never excel in OB, I just don't care about the difference between a relaxed down or sphinx down as long as my dog is down. I've never seen a judge care in Rally, though obviously different judges have different "strike zones" so to speak.


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## elrohwen

sassafras said:


> This is why I will never excel in OB, I just don't care about the difference between a relaxed down or sphinx down as long as my dog is down. I've never seen a judge care in Rally, though obviously different judges have different "strike zones" so to speak.


Yeah, I think if the dog obviously sits first, pauses, and then goes into a down during certain exercises that may be penalized. But if the butt goes down first and is immediately followed by the front end I don't think a Rally judge would care. And if the dog went down in a relaxed down on one hip, the judge wouldn't care


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## Kyllobernese

We have all the CKC Rally signs now so can start to set up some courses. Kris knows most of them already and enjoys doing it more than just the Obedience as I can talk to her and she does not get as bored. She has done so much Obedience work but I have also worked on things I knew she would need for Rally, like going to heel from both sides, tight circles, etc. We don't really have a class and there are only three of us that are doing the Rally signs. The one thing I am having a problem with is backing up, will have to work on that.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> If you want a down curled on to one hip for long stays or settles, then that can have a different cue and lots of people give that a different cue, but that's not as necessary in Rally where you aren't doing long downs.


Currently the 'down' cue she knows does not specify a sphinx down or a lean on the hip down or what have you. Sometimes she will sphinx down just for whatever reason, but she doesn't know she's 'supposed' to do one or the other.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Currently the 'down' cue she knows does not specify a sphinx down or a lean on the hip down or what have you. Sometimes she will sphinx down just for whatever reason, but she doesn't know she's 'supposed' to do one or the other.


Right, but if she did know a sphynx down was what you wanted, she should be able to do it from a sit or from a stand - the same cue word works. If the dog is standing and I say "down" he should fold back into a down with his front end going down first. If he's already sitting, then he just puts his front end down. End behavior looks the same.

If you want to differentiate a perfect sphynx down from a rolled on hip down, that's another thing and lots of people do use different cues for those. I don't bother though and it won't lose you points in the Rally ring if your dog is rolled on a hip or not. 

Only knowing how to down by going into a sit first (which can potentially lose you points) is a different issue and I don't think it's related to the cue you're using. More that the dog hasn't learned the body mechanics of downing from a stand.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> If you want to differentiate a perfect sphynx down from a rolled on hip down, that's another thing and lots of people do use different cues for those. I don't bother though and it won't lose you points in the Rally ring if your dog is rolled on a hip or not.


Yes, this is what I'm asking. I'm not sure where the not knowing down from a stand came from.


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## MrsBoats

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, I think if the dog obviously sits first, pauses, and then goes into a down during certain exercises that may be penalized. But if the butt goes down first and is immediately followed by the front end I don't think a Rally judge would care. And if the dog went down in a relaxed down on one hip, the judge wouldn't care


They do care in the Down and Stop which is #27. If your dog sits first in the Down and Stop....you will lose points and some judges will hit you for all 10 points. So....yes, having a down from a stand is necessary in AKC Rally Novice.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yes, this is what I'm asking. I'm not sure where the not knowing down from a stand came from.


Because you mentioned losing points for the dog sitting before lying down. So I thought that's what you were worried about.



ireth0 said:


> It might be different rules, but for us I was told we could lose points if the judge thinks she did a sit-then-down by putting her butt down first.






MrsBoats said:


> They do care in the Down and Stop which is #27. If your dog sits first in the Down and Stop....you will lose points and some judges will hit you for all 10 points. So....yes, having a down from a stand is necessary in AKC Rally Novice.


Even if the dog doesn't pause in the sit, but just goes down butt first into the down? I haven't seen enough Rally courses judged but I didn't think they were that detail oriented in general. I'm sure it depends on the judge too. (ETA: But it still wouldn't matter if you had separate cues for relaxed vs sphynx downs. The dog should be able to do either directly from a stand which is what I was getting at)


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## ireth0

Maybe I was explaining it poorly. 

To me sitting before lying down would more easily result in a non-sphinx down, thus you don't want that. A sphinx down would involve front down first or just a general folding down of the whole body.


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## sassafras

I think in theory a rally judge COULD ding you for it, but I haven't seen it in practice.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Maybe I was explaining it poorly.
> 
> To me sitting before lying down would more easily result in a non-sphinx down, thus you don't want that. A sphinx down would involve front down first or just a general folding down of the whole body.


I think you can get a sphynx down from a sit. In rally there are signs that have you sit first, then down, and I expect my dog to do sphynx down from the sit. And Hazel does great fold back downs and then immediately rolls onto one hip so you can get a sloppy down from a fold back too. That's why I don't think you need separate cues based on the dog's starting position, just based on what you want the end position to be.


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## ireth0

Keep in mind again that this class is also keeping in mind that you may want to do Obedience, so we're using the obedience standard for the behaviours to ensure you can do either, if you so choose.



elrohwen said:


> That's why I don't think you need separate cues based on the dog's starting position, just based on what you want the end position to be.


I agree with you! Which is why that is my question, lol.


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## trainingjunkie

sassafras said:


> This is why I will never excel in OB, I just don't care about the difference between a relaxed down or sphinx down as long as my dog is down. I've never seen a judge care in Rally, though obviously different judges have different "strike zones" so to speak.


In all fairness to obedience, a sphinx down is not required. A down from a stand is required at higher levels, but there is no rule anywhere in obedience that I am aware of that requires a sphinx down. It just makes life easier at higher levels if you have it because it makes it harder for the dog to travel forward in the exercises. But no requirement. (In AKC)

I would love to watch Toast and Squash in the obedience ring!


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## MrsBoats

I'm in the camp of "never make the judge think" while you're in their ring

I've seen judges take 10 points off because the handler stepped over their dog's tails on the walk around exercises....they walked over their dog, not around. (Not a problem I have to worry about.) I've seen judges hit people who did something that looked like a finish command on the 1 step, 2 step, 3 steps back....and there's no finish there. I've seen people get hit for taking a step outside of the pivot spot. I got a 5 point hit once because Lars didn't maintain heel position over a jump (which actually isn't in the rules....but whatever, it was a provisional judge.) Judges will hit you if you take more than 2 steps on sign 211 - the double left about turn. 

In the dog drops from a stand in one movement where the butt and the elbows hit at the same time...that's fine. That's what my dogs do. If the dog drops with the elbows first and butt second, that's fine too. If the dog drops the butt first and then the elbows....that could make a judge think about what exactly your dog did. Don't make a judge think....


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## MrsBoats

trainingjunkie said:


> In all fairness to obedience, a sphinx down is not required. A down from a stand is required at higher levels, but there is no rule anywhere in obedience that I am aware of that requires a sphinx down. It just makes life easier at higher levels if you have it because it makes it harder for the dog to travel forward in the exercises. But no requirement. (In AKC)
> 
> I would love to watch Toast and Squash in the obedience ring!


Yeah....in obedience, the only down from a stand required is in Utility for signals.


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## trainingjunkie

I agree completely and my dogs do a sphinx down as default, but if a person wants to play the game and hates the distinction, it shouldn't be a hurdle.

In rally, the judging has a tendency to be all over the place. A little less so in obedience, at least in my area.


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## sassafras

MrsBoats said:


> I'm in the camp of "never make the judge think" while you're in their ring.


I'm in the camp of "I don't love this game enough to teach two different downs." 

As I said, it's why I'll never excel. I take my 81 Qs and am happy with them. 

trainingjunkie, I also jibber jabber too much for the OB ring. Which is why rally is ok for me.


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## ireth0

Oh certainly. I'm not saying everyone needs to care. I'm saying it's not something that would be too difficult at this stage for us and wondering if it is a worth while idea.


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## elrohwen

Personally, I focus on getting a fold back down where the butt does not go down first from the stand. Otherwise I don't care that much if the dog stays in a sphynx or rolls on one hip. Generally if we are doing something active, like Rally, where he is focused and ready to spring back up, Watson will hold the sphynx. If I tell him to stay or am obviously sitting down relaxing, he'll rest on one hip. That satisfies my lazy side and my side that wants to do things "right".


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## trainingjunkie

ireth0 said:


> Oh certainly. I'm not saying everyone needs to care. I'm saying it's not something that would be too difficult at this stage for us and wondering if it is a worth while idea.


I only teach a sphinx down! It's the only one I do. My "official" command is "Get Down" said very quickly. If I just say "down" my dogs will go to the ground any way they like. I don't really pay attention. But "Get Down" is a sphinx. My dogs will push into the sphinx down from a sit just out of habit most of the time.


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## petpeeve

MrsBoats said:


> My heel command now is "strut." There is no way on this planet that word would come out of my husband's mouth.


 Not unless he was fixing the car perhaps, with the dogs hanging around. Or singing along to some Bob Seger. Maybe. 



elrohwen said:


> Watson just uses down (which he sometimes does as fold back, sometimes he sits briefly first), *and if I say "stay" or "chill out" he'll roll onto a hip.*


 Mmm yeah, if comp OB were the goal I'd be a little careful with the bolded part. A judge with a sharp pencil could interpret that as minor move before handler returns to heel... something that might result in points off. I like to look at sits and downs as 50 or 60 free points depending upon which class you're in, and prefer to receive them all. I'd be more inclined to teach/have the dog go DIRECTLY into a relaxed down right from the initial cue to avoid any controversy or possible deductions, myself.


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## ireth0

Now the question becomes what word do I use.

I think I'm settling on 'flat' stolen from SDRRanger, even though she uses it for something else.


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## elrohwen

petpeeve said:


> Not unless he was fixing the car perhaps, with the dogs hanging around. Or singing along to some Bob Seger. Maybe.
> 
> Mmm yeah, if comp OB were the goal I'd be a little careful with the bolded part. A judge with a sharp pencil could interpret that as minor move before handler returns to heel... something that might result in points off. I like to look at sits and downs as 50 or 60 free points depending upon which class you're in, and prefer to receive them all. I'd be more inclined to teach/have the dog go DIRECTLY into a relaxed down right from the initial cue to avoid any controversy or possible deductions, myself.


Then it's a good thing comp ob isn't my primary goal  It would be nice to be at the point for I felt like we could go for a CD, but if we do losing a point because he shifted his weight on a stay (but didn't get up) would be the least of my concerns. Like sass I just don't care enough. 

Also, I've never taught a relaxed down. Watson offered it and I rewarded it as a sign of relaxation, because that is something he struggles with. I'm just happy he feels he can relax into a stay now.


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## trainingjunkie

In AKC, I can't think of a time that I have ever seen "comfort shifts" scored. Perhaps it's different in other venues?

Edit: AKC rules do not list comfort shifts as "scorable" unless the dog moves away from the area of the stay.


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## ireth0

As an aside, I love that I can now follow what you all are talking about. <3


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## trainingjunkie

ireth0 said:


> As an aside, I love that I can now follow what you all are talking about. <3


All sports have their own crazy inner language, don't they! And they all sound so stupid to people who don't play them! (AND, maybe they all actually ARE stupid, but stupid things are often fun! )


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## ireth0

trainingjunkie said:


> All sports have their own crazy inner language, don't they! And they all sound so stupid to people who don't play them! (AND, maybe they all actually ARE stupid, but stupid things are often fun! )


Oh yea. My bf has his own language for welding things that I smile and nod about I'm sure as much as he does about my dog things, lol.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Oh yea. My bf has his own language for welding things that I smile and nod about I'm sure as much as he does about my dog things, lol.


I never had any idea what my husband was talking about until we got jobs at the same place doing very similar things. Working here has its own language of acronyms and crazy words.


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## ireth0

I mean hell, even just 'rally' is a totally unknown thing unless you're already involved in dog sports.

Every time I tell people we started rally classes I then have to explain what rally is, even to people that I work with at the shelter.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I mean hell, even just 'rally' is a totally unknown thing unless you're already involved in dog sports.
> 
> Every time I tell people we started rally classes I then have to explain what rally is, even to people that I work with at the shelter.


Which is a shame, because I think Rally is a nice easily accessible sport for "just pet people". I think more people would try it if they knew it existed and that they try it without having anything beyond basic pet stuff like sit and down and walk on a leash.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Which is a shame, because I think Rally is a nice easily accessible sport for "just pet people". I think more people would try it if they knew it existed and that they try it without having anything beyond basic pet stuff like sit and down and walk on a leash.


Oh yea. We definitely have the most prior training to anyone else in our class. Their dogs know the basics, sit, down, a general idea of rough heeling, etc, but everything else is being taught in class. Our prior experience is definitely helping and giving us a bit of a leg up (which is why I wanted to do the other classes first), but totally wouldn't have been necessary.


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## DogTheGreat

I went ahead and signed Shae and myself up for a Rally class since my semester's class schedule conflicts with the agility schedule, so we won't be able to take an agility class until Dec. or so. It was between that or a CGC prep class, but she's nowhere near ready for a CGC test so I'd prefer to take something like that when we're closer to that goal. Honestly have no idea what to expect from the class or her in this kind of class, so I guess I'm hoping for the best? lmao


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## ireth0

DogTheGreat said:


> I went ahead and signed Shae and myself up for a Rally class since my semester's class schedule conflicts with the agility schedule, so we won't be able to take an agility class until Dec. or so. It was between that or a CGC prep class, but she's nowhere near ready for a CGC test so I'd prefer to take something like that when we're closer to that goal. Honestly have no idea what to expect from the class or her in this kind of class, so I guess I'm hoping for the best? lmao


You'll have fun! Rally will definitely help with skills for the CGC as well.


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## elrohwen

DogTheGreat said:


> I went ahead and signed Shae and myself up for a Rally class since my semester's class schedule conflicts with the agility schedule, so we won't be able to take an agility class until Dec. or so. It was between that or a CGC prep class, but she's nowhere near ready for a CGC test so I'd prefer to take something like that when we're closer to that goal. Honestly have no idea what to expect from the class or her in this kind of class, so I guess I'm hoping for the best? lmao


Yay! Rally is fun. You guys will be great.


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## ireth0

Last class we had some issues with Luna slipping into a down from her sit when doing a 'sit, wait, call to heel' exercise. Makes sense, I don't reward sits nearly as often as I do downs, so we'll have to work on that. In the exercise I rapid fed her treats while in the sit to try to build some value. It took a couple resets to get her to hold the sit but oh well, we'll get there. 

We also were using pvc (I think) guides to help the dogs sit straight. I was SO impressed that Luna didn't knock them around and actually respected them enough to adjust her sit to be between them.


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## elrohwen

Watson did really well in Rally last night. At first it was one other dog and I was thinking about trying him off leash, but 10min in a new dog showed up. A new dog who is most of the things Watson does not like - large, black and tan, pointy ears. Basically looked like a shorter haired black and tan akita. Watson whined a bit, was distracted a bit, and then we got into the ring and he turned on. No issues working for the rest of class. Good job, crazy monkey. 

We've lost some of our precision lately because he's been so up and excited, but I'm ok with that. It's coming back together (except when we did a halt, pivot right, halt, and his butt ended up at a 90deg angle. lol)


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## ireth0

Good boy Watson!

I think we officially have 4 in our class now. Luna, hound (redbone?), and what I think are 2 field bred goldens. They are from the same owners (mother handles one and daughter handles the other) but I'm not sure if the dogs are actually related or not. 

We've had a couple drop ins but at this point I think that's our core group. With 2 classes left I'm becoming sure of this, hahaha.


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## elrohwen

Our usual group is a briard, berner, and two tervs (same owner, she brings her puppy and adult dog because she couldn't fit a regular obedience class for the puppy into her schedule). Looks like the Black and Tan mix will be a regular. His owner is new to the facility and she seems cool. So far I've found out she's a horse loving red haired engineer - basically exactly the same as me. Lol


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## ireth0

Haha, neat! There are only a couple people in our training group that are close to my age, but they just do nosework. Everyone else seems to be at min 40+ which isn't a bad thing but sometimes you feel out of place, lol. Especially since I look younger than I am, hahaha.


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## Kyllobernese

My sister has her Golden in the Foundation Agility class and I was glad to see some "young" people in the class with their dogs. I am meaning early teen agers, something that we really need so there are younger handlers coming up. It is held on a Sunday afternoon so I usually go to watch and help out sometimes. My sister is also bringing her Golden to our group that does Agility and Obedience on Monday, Wednesday and Saturday. Sometimes there are just the two of us doing Agility so it is nice to have someone to train with and point out each others mistakes.


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## elrohwen

I actually felt a little old for once! This girl was talking about how she just started her first "real" engineering job, so I'm guessing she's early 20s. I'm only about 10 years older, but it was nice not to be the youngest one there by 20 years.


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## DogTheGreat

Lol I'm significantly younger than the majority of handlers. Pretty much always younger by at least 20 years, but usually more like 30-40. It doesn't bother me too much especially since they're all still friendly towards me, but it's definitely easy to feel out of place.


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## elrohwen

Watson is a Rally rockstar lately. He loves this sport so much. Last night was a new round of classes with a bunch of new dogs, and while he was whiney and checking everybody out outside the ring, as soon as we entered he was so focused. I can't remember the last time he's looked around or sniffed or done anything other than heel with attention. Our only issues now are things like occasional crooked sits or anticipating a left finish, which are much easier problems to fix. He definitely has the flashiest and more precise heeling in the class which makes me super proud (it isn't so surprising since a couple of the dogs are young or just starting out with novice handlers, but some are experienced and have much better trainers than I am)


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Watson is a Rally rockstar lately. He loves this sport so much. Last night was a new round of classes with a bunch of new dogs, and while he was whiney and checking everybody out outside the ring, as soon as we entered he was so focused. I can't remember the last time he's looked around or sniffed or done anything other than heel with attention. Our only issues now are things like occasional crooked sits or anticipating a left finish, which are much easier problems to fix. He definitely has the flashiest and more precise heeling in the class which makes me super proud (it isn't so surprising since a couple of the dogs are young or just starting out with novice handlers, but some are experienced and have much better trainers than I am)


Woohoo! Good job Watson! It's great that he's doing so well. 

Our class this week was cancelled due to the space being in use for the election.


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## ireth0

Since we didn't get a class this week and I've been slacking on practicing I decided to run through all of our previous homework exercises today when I got home from work.

We did;
Eye contact- just rewarding for eye contact, increasing duration before reward and adding distractions (moving an arm, making a noise, doing the funky chicken, etc) and rewarding for maintaining eye contact. 
Find front- this proved difficult to do inside. Just the way our house is laid out I can't go more than a couple steps without backing into something, and since we're still learning sometimes she needs more distance than that to get the desired position. She did her best considering, but in the future I might try to practice this outside. 
Hand targets- Upped the criteria for this asking for multiple touches before rewarding, got up to three on either hand. Also varied the position of the hand, asked for a wait and then target, etc.
Sit maintain- Worked on rewarding for maintaining sits and building some more value to that position. Currently she tends to default to a down if I don't reward the sit within a certain period of time, so we're working on that.
Back end awareness- worked on pivoting on the stool in both directions
The apparently controversial sphinx downs- Luna seems to be getting the hang of putting her front end down first consistently which is cool.
Stationary right turns- we just started this last class, basically we're just trying to get used to using our body language while keeping our feet still to cue a turn and rewarding the dog for following us. (so using our eyes, head, shoulders, etc) I'm really awkward at it, but Luna is getting better at understanding what I want, so that's cool.

Some of these we did multiple sets of if we had been asked to practice them more than once. I tried to only do 5-10 reps (mostly closer to 5) per behaviour per set. 

I feel like less of a slacker now, lol.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

McGee and I have been training in Rally for awhile. I plan on entering him into Rally Novice competitions soon. We are excited! I would love for him to get a Title!


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## CptJack

GO GATOR! What an awesome job, both of you.


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## ireth0

Well, last night was our last class of this set and we did our first real rally course with real rally signs. This course happened to include a serpentine weave around 4 pylons which we've never practiced and I was sure was going to be a disaster. I thought about asking to go last just so they didn't have to bother resetting them for the next person. 

To my absolute shock, she *didn't knock any of them over* and in fact she *didn't even bump into any at all.*

And even more to my shock, we didn't run into any signs and Luna didn't try to paw any of them either. For the whole course. This is HUGE for us. Knocking things over and pawing things has always been kind of her kryptonite because when presented with a new object her default behaviour is to paw it, and she is definitely not careful about not knocking into things like I've seen some dogs be. 

So, besides that huge victory, we actually even did the course... pretty well? We didn't really mess up any of the signs aside from not perfect positioning but that's not a huge deal to me at this stage. I was especially impressed that we basically nailed the 1,2,3 steps & stop sign (I hope you know which one I'm talking about) because in the past she had had a tendency to get ahead of me doing things like that. But even just heeling throughout the course went really well vs last time on our practice course when we... weren't really heeling at all.

So overall I was super happy with the night. It was cool to see how all these foundation skills we've been working on independently came together into an actual course.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> McGee and I have been training in Rally for awhile. I plan on entering him into Rally Novice competitions soon. We are excited! I would love for him to get a Title!


Good luck! When are you going to enter?



ireth0 said:


> To my absolute shock, she *didn't knock any of them over* and in fact she *didn't even bump into any at all.*


That's awesome! Maybe she's finally figuring out where her back feet are? 


Last night in Hazel's basic obedience class we were doing recalls, and when we finished the instructor said "You know, she cares about you more than Watson does". lol Yes, in a nutshell, that is basically it. Though it's funny since he is much more anxious when I leave him than she is. Overall he just has his own issues that are more important than me - checking out other dogs, checking out things to sniff, being anxious about something like the teeter. Once those issues are out of the way he is interested in me again, but I'm always working against the environment. But she's right, Hazel really cares what I think and wants to do the right thing to please me and it makes everything so much easier.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

elrohwen said:


> Good luck! When are you going to enter?


Thanks! I am hoping in the next 6 months! Like I said on a previous thread that I started, we will be taking a step back. I spoke to my rally instructor last night and he said McGee should be ok to move onto intermediate rally obedience, hooray!


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> That's awesome! Maybe she's finally figuring out where her back feet are?


I don't know if it's as much about -knowing- where her back feet are as it is -caring- where her back feet are, but hey, I'll take it regardless, lol.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I don't know if it's as much about -knowing- where her back feet are as it is -caring- where her back feet are, but hey, I'll take it regardless, lol.


Yeah, that's true. I've noticed that difference with Hazel and Watson in agility. So Watson is doing some jumping back and forth at 12" and 16" and he is so aware of his hind end and does not, under any circumstances, want to hit that bar. He is so careful.

Then I did the same drill with Hazel at 5", so she was just stepping over it and learning to use her feet. And she seems to know where her back feet are, but when she kicked the bar she looked back at it like "Huh. Did you see that? What happened there? Just fell off by itself. Weird." LOL She really doesn't care very much.


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## ireth0

Hahaha, yea. I've seen dogs in classes that are so careful about not bumping into things, even without handler direction, they're just very aware that they don't want to touch that thing, never mind knock it over. 

Then there's Luna who will just plow things down and not think twice about it like they weren't even there. 

I was talking to our instructor comparing our run this time where she didn't even bump anything and the one we did last week where we were all over the place. I think it shows that a lot of it is just boredom on her part/lack of input on my part. Last week I was much worse about not knowing what I was doing, and it was in those moments of hesitation that she would paw at the signs, or I would just run her into things because I wasn't forward thinking about our position. Because this week when I was mentally present to be giving her cues she followed excellently and didn't blow me off to do whatever. It's like she's all "Hey man, you just let me know when you're ready, in the meantime I'm going to poke at this random thing here, but you let me know when you've figured out what you want me to do."


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Any tips or tricks on keeping your dogs eyes focused on you? McGee has all the basic rally commands down, but in between the cues, he is all sorts of distracted! Thanks!


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## ireth0

Work on really rewarding for eye contact as it's own thing. At first just reward for making eye contact at all, and then gradually increase your criteria to holding the eye contact longer and/or add distractions and reward for ignoring them.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Any tips or tricks on keeping your dogs eyes focused on you? McGee has all the basic rally commands down, but in between the cues, he is all sorts of distracted! Thanks!


I think there are a couple of things that could be going on.

1. Criteria. Number one criteria in heeling for me is that the dog has his head up, whether it's making eye contact or looking at some other target on my body. If the head drops, I stop and we reset or whatever, but continuing on when the head drops lets the dog know that's not a big deal and you're fine with that. Heeling takes a long time to perfect though. In 1.5 months it's unlikely that he understands what you want enough. It's also possible that he doesn't realize that between signs is still work. Can he heel around the ring with no signs the way you would like? Just a basic obedience heeling pattern? If not, I think you need to go back and really work on heeling. In between the signs his work is to heel. And making heeling fun! The dog shouldn't feel like they're slogging around the course waiting to get to a sign so something fun happens.

2. If you are rewarding at the end of a sign, it could be that he's checking out because he thinks "I just got rewarded and I know another reward won't come until the next sign". It kind of goes back to the first point, and rewarding for the work of heeling as its own thing. I reward in between signs as often as I reward at signs or after them (early on this is all the time). Keep a high rate of reinforcement and keep it up between the signs.

3. It could point towards a general engagement issue where he is too interested in or worried about the environment. He can focus when you ask him to do one discrete cue, but then feels the need to go back to looking around or sniffing. 

I don't personally teach a "look at me" cue. I teach a lot of offered focus (waiting and then marking and rewarding when the dog looks at me in all sorts of situations and with all sorts of distractions, but without a cue). And I have a criteria that head must be up and dog must be focused on me for heeling. I don't need to say "look at me" because it's implicit in heeling or other things we do that require attention on me. Other people do train this cue as its own thing though.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> I don't personally teach a "look at me" cue. I teach a lot of offered focus (waiting and then marking and rewarding when the dog looks at me in all sorts of situations and with all sorts of distractions, but without a cue). And I have a criteria that head must be up and dog must be focused on me for heeling. I don't need to say "look at me" because it's implicit in heeling or other things we do that require attention on me. Other people do train this cue as its own thing though.


Yea me either, we've spent tons of time rewarding for eye contact from our first basic obedience class through to now where we've focused on that in our rally classes as well. Our instructor always tells us to be rewarding for eye contact, you can never do it too much, etc. 

But yea, I do the same thing where I just mark and reward offered eye contact and focus vs specifically using a cue.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea me either, we've spent tons of time rewarding for eye contact from our first basic obedience class through to now where we've focused on that in our rally classes as well. Our instructor always tells us to be rewarding for eye contact, you can never do it too much, etc.
> 
> But yea, I do the same thing where I just mark and reward offered eye contact and focus vs specifically using a cue.


Yep, that's what I do with my dogs too.

I think people who teach "look at that" fall into the trap of using it all the time when their dog is disengaging. If your dog is engaged and understands your criteria (which includes eye contact for certain exercises) then they won't be looking away. If they are looking away, you have another issue to deal with, and calling out "look at me! look at me!" every few steps isn't making your performance any better. It's just a bandaid for disengagement instead of a solution.


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## ireth0

This conversation actually reminds me of a cocker that dropped in to our last rally class. It was so obvious this dog had done no work on eye contact ever because the handler was basically just leading it around and the dog seemed barely aware that something was happening it should be concerned about. Totally no attention to the handler at all, he was just physically manipulating it with the leash to be in position and the dog was obviously not mentally present with the handler at all, just sniffing around and following where it was being led. 

I know from previous experiences this handler uses +P with their dogs pretty exclusively (yelling and holding the muzzle shut if the dog barks, leash pops for not listening/doing an asked for behaviour, etc) but he did seem open to new ideas when our rally instructor was explaining about using treats, so hopefully they can make a turn around.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> This conversation actually reminds me of a cocker that dropped in to our last rally class. It was so obvious this dog had done no work on eye contact ever because the handler was basically just leading it around and the dog seemed barely aware that something was happening it should be concerned about. Totally no attention to the handler at all, he was just physically manipulating it with the leash to be in position and the dog was obviously not mentally present with the handler at all, just sniffing around and following where it was being led.
> 
> I know from previous experiences this handler uses +P with their dogs pretty exclusively (yelling and holding the muzzle shut if the dog barks, leash pops for not listening/doing an asked for behaviour, etc) but he did seem open to new ideas when our rally instructor was explaining about using treats, so hopefully they can make a turn around.


Could be that the handler never really trained heeling at all. I've seen people go into the ring (in class) and just pull the dog around by the leash and the dog doesn't seem to have any idea why they're there or what they should be doing. Last week a young lab (who is actually super handler focused and awesome) didn't know how to do a right finish. Instead of showing him, or using a treat, the owner got frustrated and basically dragged the dog around behind her. It's one thing to give a slight tug on the collar to help them remember what to do, but it took her three tries to pull him around then she pulled him into heel position.

Just ... why? What is that accomplishing? She wasn't really harsh about it or anything, and I don't think the dog's feelings were hurt, but what did he learn? He didn't learn how to do a right finish, and he didn't learn that rally is fun. I think some people don't know what else to do when they're in that situation, and they've been taught to never lure the dog (even if you're teaching something) or bring out treats.


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## ireth0

Yea exactly. I mean, I could keep the leash really tight and pull her around/restrict her from moving out of heel but... why? That's not doing anything. And in the higher levels you have to go sans leash anyway, so there's no sense relying on it to get you through the beginner levels and then going 'oh crap, -now- what do I do?' (obviously yes you use a leash in the beginning when you're learning but it shouldn't be your sole means of controlling the dog as you get more practice)

I've been told our big thing coming up next in class is working on moving from heel to front and vice versa. Which means I need to do some more work on fronts because I've neglected that the most since it's not as easy to do inside with out house layout. (I'm always backing into something...)


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## elrohwen

I've worked with trainers who actually do use a leash for much of their early heel work to control the dog's position. Basically the dog can't be wrong, because the leash keeps them in the right spot. Then there are trainers who do it all off leash and the leash is only there as a safety measure. Either way can produce lovely heeling, but you have to be conscious about what you're doing. Dragging the dog around while he's distracted and confused is pointless.

They will take a bunch of points off for a tight leash in novice, and they'll say something about it too. In our second run Watson was super disengaged and sniffy and I had to tighten up the leash a couple times to keep him moving with me, and the judge called me on it in the middle of the course. Not helpful, since obviously we were having issues that went beyond the tight leash. I couldn't keep it loose and keep walking at the same time because he was sniffing the floor 3ft behind me. It's not like he was heeling properly and I still had the leash cranked up. But yeah, judges do make a big deal out of that.

Heel to front is tricky for bigger dogs sometimes. They don't have a lot of room to move around. I like teaching all of that stuff with pivot discs first so they learn to move their rear around instead of just follow the front end in sort of a u-turn. My fronts are neglected though and Watson sometimes ends up at a 45deg angle as he anticipates a left finish (a move he really enjoys)


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

elrohwen said:


> I think there are a couple of things that could be going on.
> 
> 2. If you are rewarding at the end of a sign, it could be that he's checking out because he thinks "I just got rewarded and I know another reward won't come until the next sign". It kind of goes back to the first point, and rewarding for the work of heeling as its own thing. I reward in between signs as often as I reward at signs or after them (early on this is all the time). Keep a high rate of reinforcement and keep it up between the signs.
> 
> 3. It could point towards a general engagement issue where he is too interested in or worried about the environment. He can focus when you ask him to do one discrete cue, but then feels the need to go back to looking around or sniffing.
> 
> I don't personally teach a "look at me" cue. I teach a lot of offered focus (waiting and then marking and rewarding when the dog looks at me in all sorts of situations and with all sorts of distractions, but without a cue). And I have a criteria that head must be up and dog must be focused on me for heeling. I don't need to say "look at me" because it's implicit in heeling or other things we do that require attention on me. Other people do train this cue as its own thing though.


I think it is a mixture of #2 and #3. He has all the rally commands down packed - front left/right finish, 260/360 turns, sit, down, etc etc etc...Him and I have the hardest time with the spiral and figure 8. It is mostly inbetween is where I loose him. He isn't very engaged, rarely does he have a tight leash but I can tell that his mind is elsewhere-looking around...Actually, the other night ago we were at the corner of the ring getting ready to make a "right turn" and just as we were getting ready to turn, he stuck his head through the show ring fence just to say hello to everyone LMAO it was pretty funny, need to have a sense of humor I suppose!
I found a really good link on youtube that will help solidy eye contact and it does not include using any cues at all...These are the games: 1. Airplane: Have dog stand/sit in front of you, put 5 treats in each hand and hold arms up, as soon as he looks click and treat (He has mastered that already, since his previous trainer worked with him on that). 2. Have dog sit in heel position, every time he looks up click and treat - slowly add time to it. 3.Have a work cue, mine is "ready ready" so that he knows it is time to pay attention! Begin with 1 step, as long as there is eye contact, click and treat...Gradually add steps. When he looks away, break off with him and start over.


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## elrohwen

Those are some awesome games! I do those with my dogs. You can also add in toys and people and dogs around as distractions

I still wonder if his heeling is not fully trained. Training the individual signs is easy, but training a dog to just heel for long stretches is much harder. I would add heeling work to the eye contact work and I bet he will understand your expectations better. Between signs I don't just want him engaged. I want him in a very specific position with his body and head. That helps him know exactly what he should be doing until we get to the next sign


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Yeah, most of the time, not always, he gets into heel position but he always seems sooo bored there lol! I think it is really because he is a retriever/pointer and he wants to wonder and explore, and not be stuck by my side. I think as we continue to grow and learn, he will become a very well rounded pup!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

I need to try and make the heel position a little more exciting for him! He likes pivots and moving around. He just doesn't like the straight lines. I just taught him how to back up and he has a good old time with that now!


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## elrohwen

Have you heard of the Fenzi Dog Sport Academy? The class Heeling Games is starting Dec 1st and I think it would be right up your alley. 
http://www.fenzidogsportsacademy.com/


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## elrohwen

My dog also really likes the pivots and the "doing stuff" park of rally and heeling in a straight line is hard for him. We've built it up with basic variable reinforcement with the signs as reinforcement. So at first interesting things happen every few steps, and next time we do five steps of straight heeling and then something interesting, and then back to two steps and something interesting. Then up to ten steps. Use the fun sign activities as reinforcement for engaged happy focused heeling on the straight lines. 

The heeling games class is fairly similar except with things like going out around a cone, or taking a jump, or hand touches or spins.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

I just want to sign up for all of the classes! Yeah, I'll have to think about it. Holiday season so finances are tighter. I'll just consider it a Christmas present to myself


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> I just want to sign up for all of the classes! Yeah, I'll have to think about it. Holiday season so finances are tighter. I'll just consider it a Christmas present to myself


The bronze level classes are only $65 and they're a great deal. Heeling Games especially has a lot of good info. Precision Heeling is another really good class.

Does he like toys? Will he work for toys? Rewarding heeling with a toy gets me a lot more animation and excitement. The main issue is that it can cause a lack of precision as the dog is very excited, so the dog needs to have a solid understanding of position, or you'll need to work that back in with the toy. My adult dog isn't particularly toy motivated but he loves the Lotus ball and his rally work has gotten much more animated in class since I started carrying that and rewarding (sometimes randomly in the middle of the run, often at the end)


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

$65.00 can fill my tank up twice :Cry:, poor girl problems lol! I just started working with him using toys! A few days ago, I bought him a toy and he went nuts over it. So, I now keep that toy away and only use it for a reward. I'm taking a few steps back with his heeling. I may only walk 3 steps with him before rewarding. I'm looking for quality over quantity. I'm also trying to make it as fun as possible to keep him interested. I'll throw the treats in the air, rough house with him, or play a game of tug of war. I am naturally a very serious person, but he is teaching me how to lighten up in life. I just love him, we are going to have a great time together in life. Nothing will ever separate us. 
I really look forward to seeing what this year holds for us. I have a feeling that we are going to be an awesome team. We just need to work out the kinks.


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## elrohwen

You guys are going to be a great team! Sounds like you know exactly what to focus on going forward.


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## trainingjunkie

New CGC and CGCA!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Very cool^^!!! I am sure you are thrilled!


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## trainingjunkie

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Very cool^^!!! I am sure you are thrilled!


Thanks! I was pleased! He's been competing and doing alright for a while now, but the CGC is a little different from competition obedience. He needed to be okay with me leaving him with a stranger for 3 minutes. That took a little more confidence than our other obedience work. It was a lot of fun. I was glad it went well.


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## ireth0

Congrats Trainingjunkie!

We're on to the next set of rally classes tonight, woohoo! Also we got a new washer this weekend, and the box had sturdy cardboard corner stick things that work really well as a chute to help with straight sits/downs. So yay for that!


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## trainingjunkie

You know you're a dog person when you get excited about packing materials! I made mine out of construction yard scraps pulled out of a dumpster (with permission) and was equally excited!


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## elrohwen

Congrats trainingjunkie! That's awesome!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Yay, McGee and I got the OK to move up to the intermediate rally course starting next week. Like the intro class, it is an 8 week course and honestly we will probably end up taking it twice because his attention is just not there yet. Who knows! We are both so new at this and we will just take our time. Maybe we will take a month worth of private classes after intermediate. It's all up in the air right now. I have to admit I feel a bit uneasy about moving up. He knows all of the basic rally cues very well, but we just can't get through a course on a loose lead. Well, if it deems to be too much we will adjust accordingly :clap2:


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## ireth0

Luna was totally a superstar with her pivoting work in class last night. The instructor asked us to try it just on the floor (no stool) which for whatever reason I haven't actually tried before but she did it perfectly. Now we just have to do more work on moving in the other direction.

She also did so well with the plungers and didn't even try to paw them!

We started introducing our cue 'flat' for the front-first sphinx down, and did pretty well with that. The other students started working on walking around their dog while in the down but we got that down in our advanced obedience so we just practiced.

This was the start of a new set of classes for us so we have a couple new dogs! A black standard poodle and a black cocker spaniel.


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## elrohwen

Hazel did her last obedience class last night. There is one more in the session, but she'll be in standing heat by then so she won't be attending. We'll be cutting way back on classes after next week and I hope to work with her more at home. Her heeling foundation is nice but I think it's time to start cleaning it up, getting rid of the food lure, etc. She has a nice LLW with attention without a lure, but I need to get the prancy stuff and precision off of the lure. She is doing so well in class. Her fronts are very pretty and her stays are excellent, except she's started to drop into a down during the sit/stay. It's not something we really practice in a formal way outside of class, so I'm impressed with how relaxed and committed she is to staying. Watson was always on the edge of jumping up and running around the room. 

I may try Watson off leash in Rally this week. Last week we had a substitute instructor who didn't realize he already had his novice title until the end of class, and she said she would have made us try off leash if she knew. He's relaxed enough about the new dogs now, and we've spent a couple months working off leash in agility lessons, so maybe it's worth a shot. Last time we tried was January and he was actually not terrible, though he did run off a couple times (but at least he came back)


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## elrohwen

Watson ran two Rally courses off leash last night! I am so proud of him! He didn't even think about getting distracted or leaving me. He was absolutely perfect. His running away off leash has been my biggest frustration for so long - can't do agility if your dog can't be off leash, and can't do much beyond Rally Novice either. I feel like we made a major breakthrough. The courses were not short or easy either, and I didn't have to increase my rate of reinforcement much beyond what I was doing on leash (jackpot at the end, and maybe 2-3 rewards during the course for exceptional work). He was such a happy little worker.

The only mistakes in the runs were my fault (forgetting to pause for certain signs) or little things on his part (anticipating certain things, swinging his butt out). Things that are so much easier to fix than this giant off leash issue that has weighed on us forever.


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## ireth0

Woohoo! Great job Watson!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Wow that is awesome Watson!!!!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

We have been working REALLY hard on eye contact using different games to keep his interest. During the last class, he did look up at me a tiiiiny bit more, so I guess that's an accomplishment, eh?! I cannot wait to start entering into rally competitions!!! 
He is hilarious in a sense...He stares at me CONSTANTLY at home and when we are waiting outside the ring for our turn. As soon as we enter the ring, he acts like I don't even exist his brain is all over the place.


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## ireth0

It's one of those things that will take time to lay a good foundation but definitely will be worth it in the long run. We've been working on eye contact since I started training her almost a year and a half ago and now I get comments all the time how engaged and focused on me she is. 

Glad you're making progress!


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> We have been working REALLY hard on eye contact using different games to keep his interest. During the last class, he did look up at me a tiiiiny bit more, so I guess that's an accomplishment, eh?! I cannot wait to start entering into rally competitions!!!
> He is hilarious in a sense...He stares at me CONSTANTLY at home and when we are waiting outside the ring for our turn. As soon as we enter the ring, he acts like I don't even exist his brain is all over the place.


To me this sounds like stress. I would really hold off from entering competition, because IME, it just gets more stressful and dogs revert to their stress behaviors (like acting distracted about made up things, sniffing the ground, etc). I took a dog who was fantastic in class, entered some trials, and got tons of sniffing. So bad that I had to tighten the leash and pull him along for parts of the course, which I have never had to do in class. So if you can't get the picture you want in class, don't trial yet. It took my dog until halfway through the course at his third RN trial to figure out what we were doing and to remember that he did, in fact, know how to heel. Even the judge commented that a switch flipped and he was a different dog. But that could only happen because he had a solid foundation and was doing so well in class and at home. Behaviors will never be better in competition than they are on your home turf.

I think McGee still doesn't really know what you want from him in between signs. The confidence will come as he learns his job and you get more comfortable with all of it (it takes a while for the handler to be able to process the signs on course and still give your dog the support he needs). It's very hard for some dogs to have a handler who is only paying half attention to them, and if you're reading signs and trying to figure out where you're going your brain will be split and he will know it. Once he understands his heeling job fully, I think he'll be less stressed out if you momentarily check out to figure out what you're doing. It's helpful to step away from the Rally stuff momentarily and just work on heeling, then add the signs back in.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Wirehairedvizslalove said:
> 
> 
> 
> We have been working REALLY hard on eye contact using different games to keep his interest. During the last class, he did look up at me a tiiiiny bit more, so I guess that's an accomplishment, eh?! I cannot wait to start entering into rally competitions!!!
> He is hilarious in a sense...He stares at me CONSTANTLY at home and when we are waiting outside the ring for our turn. As soon as we enter the ring, he acts like I don't even exist his brain is all over the place.
> 
> 
> 
> To me this sounds like stress. I would really hold off from entering competition, because IME, it just gets more stressful and dogs revert to their stress behaviors (like acting distracted about made up things, sniffing the ground, etc). I took a dog who was fantastic in class, entered some trials, and got tons of sniffing. So bad that I had to tighten the leash and pull him along for parts of the course, which I have never had to do in class. So if you can't get the picture you want in class, don't trial yet. It took my dog until halfway through the course at his third RN trial to figure out what we were doing and to remember that he did, in fact, know how to heel. Even the judge commented that a switch flipped and he was a different dog. But that could only happen because he had a solid foundation and was doing so well in class and at home. Behaviors will never be better in competition than they are on your home turf.
> 
> I think McGee still doesn't really know what you want from him in between signs. The confidence will come as he learns his job and you get more comfortable with all of it (it takes a while for the handler to be able to process the signs on course and still give your dog the support he needs). It's very hard for some dogs to have a handler who is only paying half attention to them, and if you're reading signs and trying to figure out where you're going your brain will be split and he will know it. Once he understands his heeling job fully, I think he'll be less stressed out if you momentarily check out to figure out what you're doing. It's helpful to step away from the Rally stuff momentarily and just work on heeling, then add the signs back in.
Click to expand...

I agree with this.

Our trainer always says whatever level your dog is at in practice, in the ring they'll lose 20% of that performance. So if you're just getting by in practice, in the ring you'll most likely not do very well at all.

Which is fine, just means you need more practice. I agree that I'd really focus on working on those foundation behaviours and forget about the signs for now. Heeling, eye contact, positioning, etc.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Don't worry, I'm not in a rush to enter trials. I am just excited at the thought of it! I've slowed my goals down. I am going to sign up for that online heeling class, I have a good feeling about it. Once he sees something interesting, he just locks up and I have yet to figure out how to get him out of that. I'm thinking it's a pointer thing since he has strong hunting instincts. I think with him, I need to get his focus from the beginning and keep him interested in me the entire time bc again if he sees something he locks onto that object... He points at everything including other dogs it's so stinkin cute I can't get mad. Sometimes I wish I was a hunter, he would be on cloud 9!


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## Flaming

ok me being the giant procrastinator that I am have waited till today, the day before our first CGN class, to brush Manna up on obedience.

I'm sooo happy that Manna just picks up and remembers stuff. 

That being said, First CGN class tomorrow morning!


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Don't worry, I'm not in a rush to enter trials. I am just excited at the thought of it! I've slowed my goals down. I am going to sign up for that online heeling class, I have a good feeling about it. Once he sees something interesting, he just locks up and I have yet to figure out how to get him out of that. I'm thinking it's a pointer thing since he has strong hunting instincts. I think with him, I need to get his focus from the beginning and keep him interested in me the entire time bc again if he sees something he locks onto that object... He points at everything including other dogs it's so stinkin cute I can't get mad. Sometimes I wish I was a hunter, he would be on cloud 9!


It could just be distraction, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that it sounds more like stress. Nothing to do with being a hunting dog or pointing at things. Pointing at birds is done in drive, which is not the same thing as looking at something in class. A dog who sniffs the floor when you don't see any cause, or stares at something longer than seems reasonable for being a mild distraction is stressed. Stress and distraction have the same "symptoms" but very different causes. The fact that he is engaged outside the ring and seems distracted once you start makes me think it is much more about stress than just being interested in other things. Careful about working too hard to make yourself more interesting - that can quickly turn into begging and put a lot of pressure on the dog, which pushes them away more.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Tonight was our first night in intermediate rally... I am so proud of him! I changed my attitude to a stress free let's have fun mindset!! He gave me at least 50% more eye contact tonight. Sure, he got distracted but I was able to snap him out of it alot faster than ever before...We had so much fun together tonight!!! 
I needed that since I accidently reversed into somebody's car earlier today ugh I've never been in a scuffle before!! That dog always knows how to turn sorrow into joy!!!


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## Flaming

So yesterday's class was...interesting.

Manna wasn't the worse one there...She was however the only one fixated on the empty water dish for 15 minutes instead of coming to a heel. 

*deep breath* could have been worse



also we got stuck half way up a flight of stairs. 

Up the first part no problem. but Manna refused to go up after the landing. 
Took 3 tries and lots of food to do it.


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## ireth0

We had a blah class last night. Don't get me wrong, Luna did really well, but it just didn't feel like we were in sync the way we usually are. Something felt off, at this point I'm 90% sure it was me being stressed (unrelated to rally) and either it was just that or Luna picking up on my stress and acting off. Possibly in combination with a few other little things that happened to be off/different this particular day. 

Regardless, like I said she did well. This class we were focusing on heeling patterns and started learning finish positions. Luna didn't try to paw any of the cones while heeling which was great, and once she knew what we were doing she didn't even think about it anymore. 

Right finishes I need a treat to lure her around, left finishes she does better with just my hand guiding her, so that was cool. 

What do you guys use for cues for finishes? Our instructor said not to use 'finish, etc' because the judge will say that. I was struggling to think of something that made sense to me (for me personally this is important for cues vs using random words) that also wouldn't interfere with other cues/every day life initially. This morning I was up and 4am and couldn't sleep, and came up with 'flip' for left finish and maybe 'circle' or 'circle around/back' or something for right finish (I also considered 'come by' to piss the herding people off and it was 4am, lol) but I'm not married to them if anyone has better suggestions.


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## trainingjunkie

When I use verbals, mine are "get in" and "go round." Mostly, I just use a quick hand gesture. If I flip my left hand, they go left. If I flip my right hand, they go right.


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## elrohwen

For left finish I just say "heel". That is my catch all word for "come to heel position" or "we are moving off in heel position". Doesn't seem to cause any confusion for Watson because of the way it was trained and the body language cues (standing still vs moving). I will probably use "swing" for Hazel though.

For right finish I say "around". 

But like trainingjunkie said, it's more of a hand cue than a verbal.


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## ireth0

Oh yea, I forgot to also mention. Since we had more dogs in this class (English cocker and American cocker, the black spoo from before and now finally another mixed breed) some of the exercises we split into groups for so there weren't too many people in the space at once.

The way it worked out we had and equal split; team red (blonde, whatever you want to call it) of the goldens, hound, and English cocker, and team black of the two mixed breeds, poodle and American cocker.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Oh yea, I forgot to also mention. Since we had more dogs in this class (English cocker and American cocker, the black spoo from before and now finally another mixed breed) some of the exercises we split into groups for so there weren't too many people in the space at once.
> 
> The way it worked out we had and equal split; team red (blonde, whatever you want to call it) of the goldens, hound, and English cocker, and team black of the two mixed breeds, poodle and American cocker.


What did you guys work on?


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## elrohwen

Hazel had to miss her last "better than basic" class last night because she's limping :-( She's in heat anyway and most place wouldn't have let her go, but the instructor said it was ok. Oh well. I'm not sure what to do with her in obedience. I think it's time to pull her from classes and get her heeling solid on my own, then reintroduce her with Rally or something. Assuming the limping goes away relatively soon that may be a project for this winter. I do like attending obedience classes with her though. I just wish we had more of an intermediate competition type class. Or a heeling specific class.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> What did you guys work on?


For the team splits we were learning the finishes. So one group worked on left finish, then the other group, and then we switched again for the right finishes.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> For the team splits we were learning the finishes. So one group worked on left finish, then the other group, and then we switched again for the right finishes.


Ah, I get it.


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## ireth0

elrohwen said:


> Ah, I get it.


Yea I think it was partially a space thing (not a small space but 8 dogs up and moving at once would be cramped) and partially the instructor wanting to make sure she was able to observe everyone properly and give feedback.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea I think it was partially a space thing (not a small space but 8 dogs up and moving at once would be cramped) and partially the instructor wanting to make sure she was able to observe everyone properly and give feedback.


Yeah, that makes sense.

If we have two trainers, they will sometimes split everyone up into two groups and have each group doing something different. And in Rally we sometimes have activities set up outside the ring that you can work on during the down time (figure 8's, heeling towards a barrier, etc)


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## ireth0

It's an interesting mix and I really commend her for the way she's working with the group. None of us have competed before but the skill and experience level really varies. You run the range of people like me who habitually take classes and are reasonably experienced in training, to people who don't even know what +R training is and don't have the skill yet to properly implement it (marking and rewarding at all- let alone at the right times), and people in between. 

I sympathize with her because it's difficult to say "okay let's work on this heeling pattern" for the more experienced dogs, but also have dogs who don't even regularly offer attention yet, never mind anything close to a proper heel.


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## elrohwen

Most of our Rally classes are with reasonably experienced people. Like, everybody has titled multiple dogs. They may not be the best trainer ever, but they know how this works. We do occasionally get a new person in which is fun. They don't allow total beginners, they must have at least a basic obedience foundation, but they don't need any sport experience. We have two new people now and it's fun. Both have been training their dogs for a bit, but neither of done rally or competition obedience. They're catching on really fast. Learning the signs (for the handler) is the hardest part.


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## ireth0

I know there is some kind of advanced class that goes before us, but I'm not sure at what point you get moved to that class. (do you have to have titled, or just have a solid grasp on the basic skills, etc)

Our basic class focuses on the signs very little and we work mostly on the foundation behaviours (at least to this point), so I also wonder if that class works with the specific signs more.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> I know there is some kind of advanced class that goes before us, but I'm not sure at what point you get moved to that class. (do you have to have titled, or just have a solid grasp on the basic skills, etc)
> 
> Our basic class focuses on the signs very little and we work mostly on the foundation behaviours (at least to this point), so I also wonder if that class works with the specific signs more.


We only have one class, so it kind of goes with the experience level of the majority of the people. Since most people are more advanced, the class typically involves a reasonably hard course (advanced level with maybe a couple excellent signs usually). It's not easy to jump in as a pure beginner. They are trying to offer an intro to sports course now that can cover things at a more basic level so people aren't thrown into a whole course on the first night.


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## Kyllobernese

I also use the command "heel" to go from front to the left heel and "round" for the right to heel. Kris picked up the difference really fast. Her recall is really good but she is still having a problem sitting straight in front of me.


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## elrohwen

Another great Rally class! We only had time for two runs, so I decided to do both off leash. The instructor threw in some fun stuff too:
offset figure 8: toy and food as distractions. Watson did sniff the toy the first time through, but completely ignored both after that. His figure 8 was really nice as well. We had some little issues with lagging to the right earlier this year but looks like the work we did helped.
down while heeling: What's the official name for this one? I can't find it online and I don't have my stuff with me at work. Anyway, it's one of the few signs we haven't really worked on, so it was fun to add this one in. We did ok. 
call to heel (from the down): love this one and not something we ever do usually

I felt so comfortable with him off leash. I was even able to go back and repeat signs or fix them without worrying that I would lose him by breaking the flow. I'm amazed at the change in him from February. Maybe we will be able to get his RA and RE some day! And if we can heel off leash, even a CD!


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## ireth0

Feeling much better about last night's class than I was last week. 

We did a couple more complex signs- front and then right finish with a halt and go and also with a halt after the finish, which Luna did really well at once I figured out the best way to communicate to her what I wanted. We had to do them without luring with a treat or rewarding in between which I was hesitant about but she did really well. Apparently next week we're going to do the same thing except with a left finish.

We also practiced some of the less complex signs like 270 left and 360, as well as did some left turn practice around pylons. The first left turn was pretty bad because I didn't signal what was about to happen and I ran into her, but after that I realized my mistake and was more clear with my body language and she responded really well. 

This class the instructor also asked us for our emails to be put on a list to be notified for the matches upcoming in the new year. That's... um... exciting, hahaha. I don't think we're anywhere near that yet but who knows!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

I'm glad to hear that everyone is having good classes! Mcgee also did great last night!! He gave me sooo much eye contact. We have begun working on pivots... They are difficult. We are also working on 3 steps back, he can do it but he can't stay straight yet.


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## Kyllobernese

I am hoping to get enough people together so we can start practicing Rally this winter when it is too cold to do Agility in the unheated arena. We have a large room, completely covered with rubber mats and have all the CKC signs already, just have to get organized. We are still doing Obedience and Agility on Wednesdays and Saturdays so hoping I can get everyone to come after we are finished with the Obedience.


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## Flaming

I have never seen Manna so absorbed bu another dog before.


There's a fear reactive BC in our CGN classes and Manna just wants to play with her. 
She ignores me, food and other dogs in favor of this one dog. 

Manna we're gonna fail if you keep this up


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## Miss Bugs

haven't competed or practiced much with Gem in a while, had not competed since June. suddenly had the opp. to go to an away trial with a friend, a one day trial and I needed to take time off work to go.. I wasn't entirely sure it would be worth it, the loss of pay, plus trial and hotel costs for a 1 day trial? BUT it was an "excellent and beyond" trial..we have been chasing our last darn Excellent Q for a LONG time and this trial would give me 3 chances..plus the trial was in the same city that Sola's niece(who she was born and raised with and flew to Sask with) lives in, so we could add a visit into the trip. so I went to the trial... and came home with not one but TWO titles! Gem Q'd her first Excellent run with a 192 for her CRX-CL title, so I then bumped her remaining Excellent runs to Versatility and added the 3rd Versatility run so the titling option was there, didn't really think that would happen, we haven't touch Versatility stuff in quite a few months and it took over a year to get that CRX because she kept going loony in the ring. instead she Q'd all 3 Versatility runs with 184, 187 and 190 for her CRV!!


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## Miss Bugs

videos'!

Gem's "Excellent" run score 192
https://youtu.be/Qu6iHB9XGIk

her first Versatility run score 184
https://youtu.be/mZUNnDp1lns

second Vers. run, score 190
https://youtu.be/2RjVjqguBWw

and final run! score 187
https://youtu.be/B1Xy__M7iiU

the judge doubles over laughing in the end of the last video because if you watch, Gem bowled over a sign in every. single. Versatility run and on that last run she almost made it through without throwing over a cone/sign, then on that slow walk on the end she throws over the second last sign and we were not even heeling near it, she distanced herself and bowled it over lol. 

now that she has her CRV I don't know if I will go further.. we can go for the rest of her team titles and Vers. Excellent, but trials offering these classes are not many. my other option is C stream and I am torn on trying that, C stream requires 190+ to Q, and that is pretty rare for us since she is such a doofus in the ring and I don't really want to change that because honestly she has so much FUN with it. OTH... that is it exactly, she has so much fun, do I want to mostly cut her out of Rally now that she has her CRV? or cut her back to just Vers, Exc. and team titles and put my focus on Sola's Rally and Gyp's scenting?


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## ireth0

Nice runs Miss Bugs!

Next week is our last Rally class for this year, then in the new year we will be taking a break to do a freestyle class. 

However in that time I am going to observe and potentially assist in a sanctioned match, and maybe participate in a fun match! Very excited!


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## Kyllobernese

I really want to get into Rally with Kris but there are not any classes in it or that many trials around here. I go quite some distances to Agility trials but there is not the same amount of Rally trials. I joined Caro but they only have a couple of trials a year so I am going to look into CKC trials as there seems to be a few more of them.

Looks like your dog really enjoys doing it.


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## agility collie mom

Savannah and I decided to give WCRL Rally a try. First trial Savannah scored a 192 (fifth place) and a 207 (second place). Level 1A. NQ 'd in one run because I missed a sign. She only had a one point deduction So bad Mom. Our instructor is: http://www.thealmanac.net/article/20140430/COLUMN0801/140439991
so I would be foolish to pass up such a learning opportunity! Plus we need something to do when we retire from agility u!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

McGee and I are signing up for our very first akc rally novice trial in March! Actually, our entire class (5 of us) are going to sign up and be there together including the instructor. I'm excited! Any suggestions for a first time competitor? I will probably have a panic attack in front of everybody LOL...I really don't do well in front of people I have social anxiety disorder, am shy, and am a hermit.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> McGee and I are signing up for our very first akc rally novice trial in March! Actually, our entire class (5 of us) are going to sign up and be there together including the instructor. I'm excited! Any suggestions for a first time competitor? I will probably have a panic attack in front of everybody LOL...I really don't do well in front of people I have social anxiety disorder, am shy, and am a hermit.


Good luck!

You will probably be nervous. Really nervous. Just be prepared for that and try to calm yourself as much as possible. Keep your expectations low and just have the goal of going there and doing it to see where you're at. You may surprise yourself, but don't set yourself up to fail by expecting too much on your first time out.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

elrohwen said:


> Good luck!
> 
> You will probably be nervous. Really nervous. Just be prepared for that and try to calm yourself as much as possible. Keep your expectations low and just have the goal of going there and doing it to see where you're at. You may surprise yourself, but don't set yourself up to fail by expecting too much on your first time out.


Yeah, my expectation is to not even earn a qualifying score. I honestly see myself reading the sign wrong and doing the cue incorrectly... I already do that in class because I get nervous lol! Next Sunday there is a practice day at the dog Academy, where it's treated as a competition but it's not a competition...So,hopefully that'll be a good learning experience.


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## trainingjunkie

Please forgive me in advance if any of this is unwelcome, not my intention.

One of the worst things you can do to a competition dog is enter him too soon. If a dog is not used to working with delayed reinforcement in strange places with tons of distractions with a nervous handler, his experience in the ring might be demotivating enough for him to remember it and hate the ring long-term. Entering too early can really hurt a show career. My advice would be, if you suspect he's not ready, don't enter. Just wait until both of you are confident and prepared. In the long run, you will be glad you did. Ring experience is only a good thing if the experience is good! A bad experience in the ring is a significant set back.

You will know if you are ready in March. Don't short-cut or rush if you aren't.

Showing is fun, but not if your dog is scared.


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## elrohwen

I do agree with TrainingJunkie. For your first trial ever these is some sense of "let's try this and see how it goes", but you also don't want to overface your dog and cause long term problems. Overall I think Rally Novice is pretty safe though - the dog is on leash, and even if he's completely distracted it's over and done with quickly and all he really needs to do is follow you around on a loose leash. If it doesn't go well, you know what you need to work on. 

Watson was very sniffy the first couple times (the location was particularly challenging too) but it seemed to come together for him the last two times we did it. He was finally like "Oh, this is what we do in class every week. Cool, I can do this". It was halfway through our third run that a switch flipped; even the judge commented on it. I had thought he was very ready, but those first couple times were a bit rough while we both got over how new it was. It's hard to be a novice handler with a novice dog because it's new for both of you. It's hard to replicate that unless you have a lot of places to do match shows, which we don't (especially not in Rally).

Has he been to any shows? I would try to go to a trial (can even be for agility or something) and see how he does. Can he relax? Can he work with you? The whole environment can be very overwhelming. At least by the time Watson was entered in Rally he had been to a dozen or more shows and I knew that he wasn't going to freak out at the general environment.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Yeah, we are going to the "pretend competition" lol next Sunday. He's totally chill in the ring...I try to be as patient and fun as possible with him. If he doesn't get something right, I try not to be hard on him because I figure we can work on it together alone at home instead of making him nervous in the ring. He is a very goofy dog so the one time that I did stress him out a couple months ago, he completely locked up and I felt so bad!! He went from being his goofy self around me to being nervous so that was a lesson learned! The only way lady in our class is just coming to watch and see what it's all about.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Yeah, we are going to the "pretend competition" lol next Sunday. He's totally chill in the ring...I try to be as patient and fun as possible with him. If he doesn't get something right, I try not to be hard on him because I figure we can work on it together alone at home instead of making him nervous in the ring. He is a very goofy dog so the one time that I did stress him out a couple months ago, he completely locked up and I felt so bad!! He went from being his goofy self around me to being nervous so that was a lesson learned! The only way lady in our class is just coming to watch and see what it's all about.


The risk isn't that you would not be patient or would make him nervous on purpose. The risk is that he sees that he's not getting reinforced and that you're nervous, and then the whole ring experience becomes a negative thing. The ring is the place where mom is acting weird and no treats are available and there is a judge following you around, etc.


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## CptJack

elrohwen said:


> The risk isn't that you would not be patient or would make him nervous on purpose. The risk is that he sees that he's not getting reinforced and that you're nervous, and then the whole ring experience becomes a negative thing. The ring is the place where mom is acting weird and no treats are available and there is a judge following you around, etc.


Yeah, this. The big leap is actually that you're putting the dog under stress without reinforcement available to make it a positive thing. The reward history and confidence need to be there, first. I leap headfirst into trials in some ways (agility, not rally/obed), but you really have to make sure you don't turn the dog off by applying too much pressure in a situation where you aren't rewarding enough - because you can't reward. Because you're in the ring.


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## petpeeve

If the dog has been conditioned to verbal praise and encouragement, that's allowed in rally and could / should be used at least as a lesser form of reinforcement. Especially by novice handlers with novice dogs on a maiden run. Unlike standard ob for example, where the handler, by the rules, is forced to go essentially silent for the duration of the run. 

Not saying the poster should enter the trial, just generally saying that *some* level of reinforcement is available, moreso than in standard ob.


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## elrohwen

petpeeve said:


> If the dog has been conditioned to verbal praise and encouragement, that's allowed in rally and could / should be used at least as a lesser form of reinforcement. Especially by novice handlers with novice dogs on a maiden run. Unlike standard ob for example, where the handler, by the rules, is forced to go essentially silent for the duration of the run.
> 
> Not saying the poster should enter the trial, just generally saying that *some* level of reinforcement is available, moreso than in standard ob.


That's why I don't think entering Rally Novice is nearly as big of a risk as entering Novice Ob or something. Most dogs aren't going to be overly traumatized even if they are confused. That's why I started in Rally rather than Ob with Watson.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

His main reward is applause and being talked too. Treats really don't do anything for him, sure they are there but it's rare if he gets more than 1 treat while in the ring, half the time it falls out the side of his mouth anyway. I will have a few practice competitions before then. If I don't think we are ready, then we will sit out and watch it instead. I almost always take a few minutes out after class to speak with my instructor to see how we are doing and any other opinions that he may have. McGee always comes first.


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## trainingjunkie

If your dog works well for praise and is comfortable in new places, you should be in good shape! 

Relax! Have fun! Remember that you can keep coming back so there's no pressure except for the pressure you put on yourself.

If you can, watch some competition videos so you can see how people and dogs behave in the ring. Try really hard to have fun! Rally is a blast! 

Welcome to the sport!


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## elrohwen

Where the heck did this mature steady dog come from? Last night at Rally Watson stayed on his mat while I walked the course, ran 3 courses with me off leash (super distracted on the first run, but he didn't leave me!), played training and proofing games off leash outside the ring, held a stay while I helped clean up, and didn't react at all to the other dog whining at him. It helped a lot that there was only one other dog and Watson is ok with him now (even though the dog looks fairly intimidating, think black and tan akita with shorter fur). I don't think he would have been so steady with a lot of dogs there. But still. He seems so much more comfortable in his own skin lately.


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## Kyllobernese

There is a Caro Rally trial in March that I am thinking of entering. I have only done a Rally class with my Shih Tzu x Maltese in 2014 and it was for CKC so I have printed off the Caro signs and read up on their rules. I think Kris, my Dobe, will like Rally more than just the Obedience. I have been doing a lot more Agility with her lately and she is coming along great so the Rally will be a big change. There is another Fun trial for Obedience in Feb. and I am going to go to it. Last month they also did one run-through of the Rally signs so hopefully they will do that again this time. If not, I am going to treat the Obedience like Rally and treat and talk to her for practice. They do not score them, just give you the chance to do some work in a trial like atmosphere.


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## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> Where the heck did this mature steady dog come from? Last night at Rally Watson stayed on his mat while I walked the course, ran 3 courses with me off leash (super distracted on the first run, but he didn't leave me!), played training and proofing games off leash outside the ring, held a stay while I helped clean up, and didn't react at all to the other dog whining at him. It helped a lot that there was only one other dog and Watson is ok with him now (even though the dog looks fairly intimidating, think black and tan akita with shorter fur). I don't think he would have been so steady with a lot of dogs there. But still. He seems so much more comfortable in his own skin lately.


Age helps so much.

I have been on a very frustratingly long journey with my little whippet. She is trained through most of utility and I have not yet been able to put her in the obedience ring for her CD. She is capable of stunning work, but I just can't get her ring ready. She's 4 now. And I am starting to think she can do it...

Glad things are working out. Dogs grow into themselves. Patience pays off.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Age helps so much.
> 
> I have been on a very frustratingly long journey with my little whippet. She is trained through most of utility and I have not yet been able to put her in the obedience ring for her CD. She is capable of stunning work, but I just can't get her ring ready. She's 4 now. And I am starting to think she can do it...
> 
> Glad things are working out. Dogs grow into themselves. Patience pays off.


I wonder if he will ever trial again. He is about to the point where he can smoothly and accurately run an RA or RE course with treats on me but very low reward schedule. He does still have an issue with the first run being super distracted and then picking up confidence and focus after that. But we're getting there. I do know that it would all fall apart if I tried to take it to a trial. So we'll see. He'll be going to a few shows as a conformation dog this year and those are a good chance to practice and pretend we're there for obedience/rally. I honestly don't care if he doesn't trial in stuff though. It's not fun for either of us and I'm not going to force it. But it's really fun to watch him become the mature steady and hard working dog in his classes. I'm finally seeing similar work in class to what I see at home. He's 3.5 now. I'm really excited to see what he's like around 5.

What are Ky's issues? Ring stress? Watson is so environmental and easily distracted/stressed. And if I'm nervous he shuts down. Getting ready to trial is so hard, especially because you really have to seek out chances to practice (we don't have many matches here).


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## trainingjunkie

Ky disconnects in trial. Mostly it's the loss of food. I am going to trial her next weekend in CDSP. In Novice. You can feed between exercises. I will be interested to see what I have. 

I think she is ready for her CD now, but you don't really know until you try. She does have an RAE and her novice agility titles. But the CD is a whole different thing. She is growing as a worker, but she is a "What's in it for Me?" dog. My boys love to work for the sake of work. Ky has been much more interesting. Her work is lovely. It's her commitment that is a challenge. Here is what I am talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VodQ6kx_zw 

See how she dims? She knows that I have no food on me and she fades in and out of her commitment and better work.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Ky disconnects in trial. Mostly it's the loss of food. I am going to trial her next weekend in CDSP. In Novice. You can feed between exercises. I will be interested to see what I have.
> 
> I think she is ready for her CD now, but you don't really know until you try. She does have an RAE and her novice agility titles. But the CD is a whole different thing. She is growing as a worker, but she is a "What's in it for Me?" dog. My boys love to work for the sake of work. Ky has been much more interesting. Her work is lovely. It's her commitment that is a challenge. Here is what I am talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VodQ6kx_zw
> 
> See how she dims? She knows that I have no food on me and she fades in and out of her commitment and better work.


Aw, she is so cute. I see what you mean. She seems excited for a little, and then fades. 

Obedience is so hard. The breaks between exercises seem much harder to deal with than the exercises themselves, at least from my perspective. I like Rally and agility because of the flow.

With dogs who struggle to work without food, I wonder if sometimes what they miss is that food=you are right. Rather than a motivation issue (I will only work if I get something out of it) maybe it's lack of confidence. I think for Watson that is the bigger issue anyway. I used to think he was more "what's in it for me", but now I think that when he is confident he will work for quite a while without food. But when he's unsure, he needs those rewards to tell him when he's right and if he doesn't get them his confidence spirals down further. Getting that level of confidence in a trial environment will be very hard for us I think. The 3rd time we showed in Rally novice, halfway through the course he somehow got his confidence back and went from shut down to awesome. The complicated dogs can be frustrating but also fascinating when you get a glimpse into how they think.


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## trainingjunkie

I don't think the food=you're right is the issue with Ky. If I have a cookie on me, she will heel for 5 minutes even if she doesn't get a bite. When my husband eats, she will hold a 10 minute down/stay without ever glimpsing away just to get a thimbleful of food. For her, it's a payment thing. Add a little environmental stress, and BOOM! I have a sucky, crappy-looking dog that looks like she's never been trained.

That video is 8 or 9 months old. She has gotten much better since then but sessions like that one are still cropping up. 

I will be super curious to see what CDSP shows me. The food can be in your pocket (no bait bags allowed) and your dog can know that it's there. After each exercise, you can reward before you transition to the next exercise. I think she's going to love that. But if I am wrong, and it's not all about the food, I should know it by Sunday afternoon.

Ky used to be lazy-slow in agility too. No trouble making course time, but we were right at it. Now she' getting fast... I am sort of floored by the changes in her temperament as she ages. I didn't expect it to be so dramatic.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I don't think the food=you're right is the issue with Ky. If I have a cookie on me, she will heel for 5 minutes even if she doesn't get a bite. When my husband eats, she will hold a 10 minute down/stay without ever glimpsing away just to get a thimbleful of food. For her, it's a payment thing. Add a little environmental stress, and BOOM! I have a sucky, crappy-looking dog that looks like she's never been trained.
> 
> That video is 8 or 9 months old. She has gotten much better since then but sessions like that one are still cropping up.
> 
> I will be super curious to see what CDSP shows me. The food can be in your pocket (no bait bags allowed) and your dog can know that it's there. After each exercise, you can reward before you transition to the next exercise. I think she's going to love that. But if I am wrong, and it's not all about the food, I should know it by Sunday afternoon.
> 
> Ky used to be lazy-slow in agility too. No trouble making course time, but we were right at it. Now she' getting fast... I am sort of floored by the changes in her temperament as she ages. I didn't expect it to be so dramatic.


Interesting! So it really is all about the food for her. The CDSP experiment will be very interesting. You should share how she does. I guess it doesn't necessarily solve your issue of getting food out of the ring though which sucks.

Did you do the cookie jar games class? I really like the idea behind it, though we haven't worked on it enough to be able to put it into practice in classes. I do keep meaning to go back and build it up so I can take it to Rally and maybe agility. I think it will work well for Watson once he figures it out.


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## trainingjunkie

I didn't take it. I have been doing that sort of training for a long time. Gator works hard when I have no food on me. When I "yes" him, he runs and retrieves a container full of treats and I feed him from it after the retrieve. I need to start this with the whippets...

I will film and report back after next weekend's experiment!


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I didn't take it. I have been doing that sort of training for a long time. Gator works hard when I have no food on me. When I "yes" him, he runs and retrieves a container full of treats and I feed him from it after the retrieve. I need to start this with the whippets...
> 
> I will film and report back after next weekend's experiment!


We've done some of that type of thing, but the cookie jar was a bit different in that you're supposed to choose something they can't/won't try to pick up. But otherwise it's the same. Often when I've tried it the container I used was something he could mess with too much (like a sealed ziplock bag). Even if he couldn't get the treats he might leave me and try it. So the glass jar worked much better once he realized there's no way he's going to get the treats out without me. The rest of the class was a lot of mat work and impulse control stuff that both of mine have done. Nothing really revolutionary and I actually wished she had condensed that material into 3 weeks and had more advanced stuff at the end.


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## trainingjunkie

I can leave the food completely unprotected. I can put it in something sealed. With Gator, I let it be retrievable because it adds to his fun. He doesn't try to get the treats himself. He wouldn't do that. He brings it to me to start the party. Even if they're in a baggie.

I signed off of the Cookie Jar games when I was supposed to pay my dog for trying to snag the treats in the jar. It violates all of my other training foundations to do that! 

I'm sure the course was just great and I'm sure that it all made sense, but it was the wrong fit for me.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I signed off of the Cookie Jar games when I was supposed to pay my dog for trying to snag the treats in the jar.


I didn't really get that from the class at all?


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## trainingjunkie

Day one. It was only to build drive/excitement for the jar. I'm sure it was just a very, very brief step.

I only lasted one day.


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## elrohwen

Watson will leave food if I tell him, but there is a lot more conflict than if he realizes he can't access it himself anyway. Like, he can heel over kibble on the ground and things like that, but it takes all of his brain power. I'm not sure he would be able to focus on me that well if he knew that the food was actually accessible. Maybe some day, but not now.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Day one. It was only to build drive/excitement for the jar. I'm sure it was just a very, very brief step.
> 
> I only lasted one day.


Ah, yeah. I didn't even think any of that was necessary. Kind of like charging a clicker. You can do it, but I don't think it has any real effect long term. Same with clicking for interacting with the jar.

What I took from the class is to let the dog try to get the food if they want, and realize that they can't. Then they figure out they can get it, but through you. Rather than giving a cue to leave it. I think for Watson at least, figuring it out for himself and making that choice is an important part. And you can't do that with a baggie of food. But he is very impulsive and very much struggles with things in the environment he wants that he is not allowed to access (prey animals, other dogs, etc etc etc). I don't really have any motivation to try it with Hazel because she doesn't think the same way.


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## trainingjunkie

It doesn't matter either way to my dogs if it's open or closed. I shouldn't offer any opinion at all of Cookie Jar games because I know absolutely nothing about them. But from what I saw, it was going to be a lot of shaping. I just didn't think it was going to blend well with my training style, but I formed that opinion way too quickly to be informed. 

People loved that class and all of her other classes. She must be doing most things fabulously to have that kind of following.

Just didn't feel like a fit for me.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> It doesn't matter either way to my dogs if it's open or closed. I shouldn't offer any opinion at all of Cookie Jar games because I know absolutely nothing about them. But from what I saw, it was going to be a lot of shaping. I just didn't think it was going to blend well with my training style, but I formed that opinion way too quickly to be informed.
> 
> People loved that class and all of her other classes. She must be doing most things fabulously to have that kind of following.
> 
> Just didn't feel like a fit for me.


Yeah, it wasn't really shaping oriented at all after the first week. Other than the mat work maybe, but mat work kind of lends itself to shaping anyway. But the impulse control and actual cookie jar stuff wasn't. Like I said, it also wasn't at all revolutionary though. I got some good ideas but there was nothing in the class I haven't tried at least in some form or another. That was my biggest disappointment with the course. Any dog with some typical +R foundation training and impulse control work would be able to do the course work in 1-2 weeks.


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## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> Yeah, it wasn't really shaping oriented at all after the first week. Other than the mat work maybe, but mat work kind of lends itself to shaping anyway. But the impulse control and actual cookie jar stuff wasn't. Like I said, it also wasn't at all revolutionary though. I got some good ideas but there was nothing in the class I haven't tried at least in some form or another. That was my biggest disappointment with the course. Any dog with some typical +R foundation training and impulse control work would be able to do the course work in 1-2 weeks.


Then it was good for me to pass. Would you suggest the class for others?


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## elrohwen

There ended up being a decent amount of 2 dog work. Getting one dog to wait for their turn while the other worked. My dogs aren't very good at that yet, but it's not like I don't know how to train it. It's not rocket science, you know?


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> Then it was good for me to pass. Would you suggest the class for others?


I would recommend it I think. More for true beginners or as foundation stuff. Or if someone really wanted to get food off of their body and wasn't having any luck with other methods. I've taken worse classes, but it certainly didn't blow my mind. It was all very doable though.

ETA: I also think it was fairly drive building for a really soft or slower dog, which is nice. While also building some impulse control in dogs who need it.


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## sydneynicole

Oliver was SO GOOD today in obedience class. His sits and downs were lightning fast with both the verbal cue and hand signals, we had maybe one instance where he lost focus and I couldn't get it back with one 'Oliver' compared to the normal several. He did well with his stays even when I walked away holding his favorite toy which has been a struggle and still needs work, but he was much better today. For a little maniac of a 7 month old, I'm super happy with him.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Yesterday, I went to a practice obedience (Novice, Open, and Utility) as well as Rally obedience (I was the only one that signed up for any type of Rally!) where I watched and assisted the judge. I had no idea how strict Utility really is! The handlers were so tough on their dogs - grabbing dogs by their throat, yelling, slapping...Maybe I am just a softee, but it really turned me off from ever wanting to pursue more advanced obedience if that is what it entails! After obedience was done, they set up for Rally and I had a lot of eyes on me, well more like McGee since he isn't a very common breed. I completely bombed it. I just totally froze up, McGee froze up it was terrible. We did two rounds, the second went smoother. I had almost decided just to give up - the pressure for me was just too much I felt since all of the experts around me, they must think I'm better than what I really am and I just couldn't handle the pressure plus I have bad anxiety and stage fright...
After talking it over with a friend and spilling out my emotions bc i was shaky for hours afterwards, I woke up with a new attitude! Early in the morning we went for a walk followed with some fun training activities and tonight we have class. I do feel more tense than I normally would before class.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Yesterday, I went to a practice obedience (Novice, Open, and Utility) as well as Rally obedience (I was the only one that signed up for any type of Rally!) where I watched and assisted the judge. I had no idea how strict Utility really is! The handlers were so tough on their dogs - grabbing dogs by their throat, yelling, slapping...Maybe I am just a softee, but it really turned me off from ever wanting to pursue more advanced obedience if that is what it entails!


Not everybody trains like that, but unfortunately, many still do. Fenzi classes can help you train to that level and it is all force free, but it can be harder to find trainers in person who aren't old school.



> After obedience was done, they set up for Rally and I had a lot of eyes on me, well more like McGee since he isn't a very common breed. I completely bombed it. I just totally froze up, McGee froze up it was terrible. We did two rounds, the second went smoother. I had almost decided just to give up - the pressure for me was just too much I felt since all of the experts around me, they must think I'm better than what I really am and I just couldn't handle the pressure plus I have bad anxiety and stage fright...
> After talking it over with a friend and spilling out my emotions bc i was shaky for hours afterwards, I woke up with a new attitude! Early in the morning we went for a walk followed with some fun training activities and tonight we have class. I do feel more tense than I normally would before class.


Relax! Everybody has a first time, and everybody gets nervous. I bet it looked better than you thought. I thought our first novice run was just the worst thing ever, but watching the video back it didn't look as terrible as it felt. 

You've also been doing it such a short time. You can't expect to go in and rock it right off the bat with your first dog. It takes some time to get comfortable with Rally in general (learning all the signs, etc) and with performing in front of others. 

Some people will judge, but they always find something to judge no matter how good or bad you are. The nice people will sympathize because they've been where you are.


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## trainingjunkie

Everything is going to be okay! Run-throughs and fun matches were designed to do exactly that! You go to them to transition from training to trialing. They feel very different than class. They create an opportunity to assess where your training is at and allow you to feel the pressure of having eyes on you. Everything is going to be just fine! It's not a race!

Utility does not have to be ugly or harsh or forceful. It can be a whole lot of fun. You as an owner/trainer/exhibitor get to decide how you train. If harsh isn't your thing, you absolutely never have to be harsh. Not once. Just learn the exercises and find people that can help you get there on your chosen path. Many harsh trainers are totally capable of showing you a less forceful way of handling the exercises.

I have a UD on a non-traditional breed. I don't remember using corrections in my training at all except once I threw a chunk of turkey at my dog near the article pile because I was frustrated. My dog hid in a closet even though 1.) I threw TURKEY, and 2.) It didn't even hit him. He didn't like that I was mad because he was not used to seeing that and didn't know what to do with it. His strong reaction reminded me that I had to dial things back. 

Don't be discouraged! Just figure out what you can learn/take from the experience and move forward.


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## MrsBoats

> Yesterday, I went to a practice obedience (Novice, Open, and Utility) as well as Rally obedience (I was the only one that signed up for any type of Rally!) where I watched and assisted the judge. I had no idea how strict Utility really is! The handlers were so tough on their dogs - grabbing dogs by their throat, yelling, slapping...Maybe I am just a softee, but it really turned me off from ever wanting to pursue more advanced obedience if that is what it entails!


Yes, there are people in obedience who take the sport way more seriously than they should. And there are people who train with unfair corrections with their dogs. It doesn't mean that you must train that way. 

Here's my dog and I working in Utility at a Show and Go (which is an informal practice show):






and here's my younger dog working in Open at run thrus:






I'm not heavy handed by any means and I consider myself a balanced trainer. My corrections are fair and are meant to motivate a dog into performing an exercise correctly and/or quickly. Corrections in obedience should never be given in a way that will shut a dog down or make them worry about if they are right or wrong. Corrections and proofing are meant to help build a dog's confidence...not tear it down in the ring.You never correct a dog that does not understand completely what you are asking of it. Corrections when given correctly and fairly are a very, very valuable way to communicate to a dog what you are looking for. Corrections done correctly will help a dog deal with the stress that comes from working at higher levels of obedience. I do see a lot of people set their dogs up to fail and then use really unfair corrective methods when their dog does blow it. Instead of building confidence and motivating their dog to be right....they erode the trust their dog has for them and the ring. I have a feeling, that is what you saw. 

Utility is a tough ring...the dog has to work away from the handler in every exercise. The dogs have to make good independent decisions without their handler right next to them micro-managing what they do. Utility A is one of the hardest classes to qualify in. Utility B is a brutually tough class because a lot of teams are in there hunting for OTCH points. The stakes are high in both classes. To pull off decent performances in Utility, you really do need to test the dog in it's knowledge of the exercises under different environments, scenarios, etc. There's a right way to do that...but what you saw was the wrong way.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

The photos never showed up @Mrs.Boats . Yeah, I was just really taken back by it all. After sleeping it off, I woke up with a positive attitude and we are ready to tackle it again! The biggest issue we have is eye contact! He gets soo distracted, and if I don't have the highest quality treat, then forget about it...And then I need to wean him off of treats, seems impossible. I watched dogs who have perfect eye contact, and it just amazes me! He is getting better though. McGee is very much an adult puppy lol.


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## MrsBoats

That's really weird....they were videos I posted. Here are the links to them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tCCb7UqBEo - Ocean's open run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In2d17ziN4Q - Lars in Utility

I posted those so you can see that you can work in the advanced levels of obedience and not be an ogre.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

MrsBoats said:


> That's really weird....they were videos I posted. Here are the links to them:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tCCb7UqBEo - Ocean's open run
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In2d17ziN4Q - Lars in Utility
> 
> I posted those so you can see that you can work in the advanced levels of obedience and not be an ogre.


Wow, you guys look great together, amazing! What I'm trying to do is create 5 or 6 minisessions throughout the day, maybe just a couple minutes each then 1 or 2 longer sessions. We actually just finished up at the pet store, working on eye contact around all the awesome cool stuff going on...Even if i can get him to look up at me for 2 seconds then I make a huge deal out of it! Then he saw a rabbit, goodbye McGee never got his focus back haha! 
I am amazed at the time and dedication you put into your dogs!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Ive watched a few of your rally tutorials


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

...And now McGee has this new thing where he is absolutely terrified to train inside the house. He is an extremely sensitive dog, so something must have spooked him. Whenever I bring out the treats, he gets excited for a minute and then puts his head down and hides underneath the table...And I am just like huh?? Anywhere else he is great, just not inside the house.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> ...And now McGee has this new thing where he is absolutely terrified to train inside the house. He is an extremely sensitive dog, so something must have spooked him. Whenever I bring out the treats, he gets excited for a minute and then puts his head down and hides underneath the table...And I am just like huh?? Anywhere else he is great, just not inside the house.


Do you work with a clicker or do any shaping? I would sit down on the ground with some treats and just click random things. Don't wait for something specific, just click him for walking around or checking out random things. Watson has gone through a couple periods of "don't wanna train here!" but that usually takes off the pressure and pulls him back.

And if that doesn't work I just stop and give it a rest for a couple days and try again.


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## ireth0

Aaand we are due back in rally on the 29th now that our freestyle break is done!

I will say that freestyle has done -wonders- for our heeling, if nothing else.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

elrohwen said:


> Do you work with a clicker or do any shaping? I would sit down on the ground with some treats and just click random things. Don't wait for something specific, just click him for walking around or checking out random things. Watson has gone through a couple periods of "don't wanna train here!" but that usually takes off the pressure and pulls him back.
> 
> And if that doesn't work I just stop and give it a rest for a couple days and try again.



I think I figured out why he runs and hides under the table now. I had a friends dog at my house while McGee and I were training. This dog kept being pushy and getting in the way so I grabbed his collar (Not in an aggressive sort of way), and had him stay in a separate room...When McGee saw that, he ran for the hills! It really upset him! When I say that he is a sensitive dog, I mean like if I lift my eyebrow up the slightest he falls to the ground in a circle...People were not kidding when they said vizslas are sensitive! I thought I was 100% prepared getting a vizsla, but man o man he is something special LOL, but I love him to death, hes my everything . I grew up with far less sensitive labs, so all this sensitivity has def been a challenge, but a good one I'd say! So, now yes I am just clicking and treating in the room and occasionally asking for the "touch" cue which he loves to do.


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## elrohwen

Hazel is starting a Beginner Novice prep course next term. She's finishing up a fun and games obedience class now, with two older goldens and a cocker who already has his CDX. So she's been the wild child and they have been very steady. The BN class will be some of the same owners, but with their golden puppies who are ~6-8 months. The dynamic is going to shift so much! On one hand we will probably do easier stuff (though Hazel was able to handle everything in her current class, adjusted a bit for her level). On the other, all of the puppies together are going to be batsh*t crazy. It's going to be wild.

I hope enough people sign up for Rally to keep it going. This term we only had three people, and 2/3 weeks one woman hasn't been able to come. If it's cancelled I don't know what else to do with Watson. Rally is really his very favorite thing, much more than other obedience classes (probably because he's in the ring by himself and can focus, vs trying to hold his brain together while being only feet away from other dogs). It's also been a great way to practice off leash work which we can't do in regular obedience classes.



Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> I think I figured out why he runs and hides under the table now. I had a friends dog at my house while McGee and I were training. This dog kept being pushy and getting in the way so I grabbed his collar (Not in an aggressive sort of way), and had him stay in a separate room...When McGee saw that, he ran for the hills! It really upset him! When I say that he is a sensitive dog, I mean like if I lift my eyebrow up the slightest he falls to the ground in a circle...People were not kidding when they said vizslas are sensitive! I thought I was 100% prepared getting a vizsla, but man o man he is something special LOL, but I love him to death, hes my everything . I grew up with far less sensitive labs, so all this sensitivity has def been a challenge, but a good one I'd say! So, now yes I am just clicking and treating in the room and occasionally asking for the "touch" cue which he loves to do.


Wow, and I thought Watson could be sensitive. Haha. Hazel butts into things all the time and I haul her off and put her somewhere else, and he just seems happy that I've dealt with the Hazel problem for him. lol


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## MrsBoats

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Ive watched a few of your rally tutorials


Oh good!!! That's what they are there for. 

LOL....yeah, the rest of the videos show how truly obsessed I am with training my own dogs.


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## elrohwen

Last night there were only two of us in Hazel's class, so we got to work on whatever we wanted. I really wanted to proof recalls and stays with toys since we've never done it in class. Hazel struggled so much. I couldn't help laughing at her. There was this one stuffed cat that she really really wanted to grab and we ended up taking him out of the ring. But she mostly got it! We did much better with heeling around the toys, and with stays. The instructor has some toys that make noise, walk around, etc. Overall a good class!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Well, McGee and I are signed up for the rally trial March 12-13! It will be both of our very first time at a trial. I am going in there with the mindset of being relaxed and proud of him whether we get a score of a 99 or if we get asked to leave the ring bc he is too distracted watching everything else...It should be fun, I'm looking forward to meeting all the other dogs there. We only signed up for the morning trials; I think doing the morning and afternoon trials would be too long of a day (~7am to 5pm) for us.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Well, McGee and I are signed up for the rally trial March 12-13! It will be both of our very first time at a trial. I am going in there with the mindset of being relaxed and proud of him whether we get a score of a 99 or if we get asked to leave the ring bc he is too distracted watching everything else...It should be fun, I'm looking forward to meeting all the other dogs there. We only signed up for the morning trials; I think doing the morning and afternoon trials would be too long of a day (~7am to 5pm) for us.


Good luck!! Try to get someone to video if you can. Trust me that even if it feels awful, you'll watch the video and feel proud


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Someone in my class who has an excellent dog told me that every time she went to a trial, her dog couldn't get passed the first sign! It's hard to believe since she has the best dog in the class, and she has even given up going to trials because of it.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Someone in my class who has an excellent dog told me that every time she went to a trial, her dog couldn't get passed the first sign! It's hard to believe since she has the best dog in the class, and she has even given up going to trials because of it.


I have the best dog in all of the most recent Rally classes we've done, but we fall apart at trials. I get nervous and he is a mirror for my stress. We muddled through the RN, but it will be a long time before we try for our Rally Advanced. Not worth the stress for either of us!


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## elrohwen

So proud of Watson. We had Rally class last night and the environment was very stressful. It was raining so hard that it sounded like we were under a waterfall (big echoey warehouse type building) and there was occasional thunder. Watson's nemesis, Ringo, was hanging out near the ring because it was raining too hard for our instructor to run him out to the car. But my little guy was awesome! Actually much better attention and heeling than our last class, with only a few moments of disconnection. I'm so impressed with how well he handled it.


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## Laurelin

Hank and I started rally today! We both had a total BLAST and he is really really good at it. We've never really done too much heeling or position work and he just rocked it. He was having so much FUN too. I was really surprised at how well we did. I've always hated obedience.


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## Kyllobernese

I am still debating whether to enter Kris in a Rally trial at the end of the month. I have taken her to a couple of Obedience matches in the last little while and she does seem to start lagging when we are in the ring. I am hoping with being able to talk to her in the Rally that I can keep her attention more. She does everything right but not with a lot of enthusiasm as soon as I go into the ring. I am thinking it is probably me as I know I do not find formal Obedience much fun it and it may show in my voice and manner.


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## ireth0

Back to rally on Monday woohoo!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Yeah! We are signed up for our very first trial on March 13th, lucky #13. He did soooo well the other night in class, if only he will do that on trial day. But, if it is too distracting and we don't get far, then that is okay too because it'll be fun to watch the other dogs go.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

McGee and I got 3rd place! We earned 1 leg, we only signed up for 1 trial. Yeah! Normally, I'd upload a photo but it's too much of a hassle. Go McGee! I'm not sure how Ppl can handle am and pm trials that makes for a looong day! We could barely handle half a day  he's knocked out.


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## trainingjunkie

Congratulations! Well done! Now you're hooked!


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## sydneynicole

I've had a rough few weeks with Oliver in class. Totally unfocused, reacting to other dogs, and just shutting down and wanting to leave. I wracked my brain trying to figure out why all of the sudden he was being so 'bad' in class (besides the fact that he's a 9 month old). The only difference I could come up with was his new harness. So, today, I put him back in his old harness. What do you know? Perfect little angel. Nailed all of his commands. He first started wearing the new harness towards the end of our final intermediate class, and last week was the first class of advanced canine. We ended up with a different instructor this class so I was a bit frustrated that she had never seen him perform well, only the crazy unruly side of him. Today she commented that he was like a different dog. 

Well, at least I got to the bottom of that - but still clueless as to why he doesn't want to work in his new harness at class. He wears it everywhere else and will gladly do all of his commands even out hiking while he is wearing it. Hm. Oh well - now I know.


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## parus

Cas and I went back to Rally class this weekend. We haven't been since he got his RA title last May. We were both kind of sloppy and klutzy but I was happy he remembered all the commands and was having a good time. I think we'll try for RX this coming May, if all goes well.


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> McGee and I got 3rd place! We earned 1 leg, we only signed up for 1 trial. Yeah! Normally, I'd upload a photo but it's too much of a hassle. Go McGee! I'm not sure how Ppl can handle am and pm trials that makes for a looong day! We could barely handle half a day  he's knocked out.


That's awesome! Congrats!


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## Kyllobernese

I decided to just go and watch the Rally trial on the 26th. I have never been to a Rally trial and I like to find out first how they are. I will probably regret it if I see she could have done it but it is also hard for me to get away two days and overnight. If I go down on Saturday to just watch, I won't have to get up and leave at 5 am in the morning. Considering I woke up to two inches of snow this morning, it is probably better to not have to leave early. It has all melted off that came down overnight and is up to 10C (50F) now and sunny out.

I will take Kris with me in case I change my mind and they may take late entries if I do.


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Early on here, somebody posted an online training center, but I can't find the link. Anyone know what I'm talking about? haha. We just moved to the middle of nowhere and I'm taking a break from the training Academy bc its a 45 minute drive, and I already drive close to 100 miles a day for work. I want to keep my foot in the door and continue with some sort of class. Thx!


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## elrohwen

Wirehairedvizslalove said:


> Early on here, somebody posted an online training center, but I can't find the link. Anyone know what I'm talking about? haha. We just moved to the middle of nowhere and I'm taking a break from the training Academy bc its a 45 minute drive, and I already drive close to 100 miles a day for work. I want to keep my foot in the door and continue with some sort of class. Thx!


Probably FDSA: http://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/

Next term starts April 1st!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

Yeah! Thanks!


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## Wirehairedvizslalove

I think I am going to take, "Healing your heeling handling." Our heeling needs some work!


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## sydneynicole

Thanks for asking about that and for posting the link, I had forgotten I had wanted to look into those classes!

I'm starting to get to the end of available classes at our Humane Society, and before I move over to the local dog sports club I'd like to work on more foundations and proofing stuff. The classes we've been taking have been great for teaching me how to train Oli and we've learned a ton of cues, but I feel we could use a lot of the foundation classes they offer. We definitely have some holes in our foundation and I'd like to fill them in while he's still young and I haven't screwed him up too badly lol. 

Probably going to sign up for Build Your Bond and Parkour for this term, just for fun until our classes at the Humane Society end.


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## Kyllobernese

Changed my mind again and sent in the entries for the Rally trial on the 26th. Just going for the one day, 2 classes. At least I will find out what I do not know about Rally. Have printed off all the signs and don't see any that should give me a problem so we will just have to wait and see. Will have a practice with her tomorrow and then the following Wednesday as we can't use the arena this Saturday.


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## elrohwen

Hazel and I worked a bit on heeling this week. I've been neglecting it a lot in favor of agility, so it was time to play around with it again. The method I use is Denise Fenzi's pocket hand, and this was our second session without food in the PH. Our session earlier in the week was better but I didn't film it :-( Halfway through she sees the food in my right hand and wants it, but eventually figures out to get into heel position instead.


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## kadylady

Nice Hazel!! 

We are making a Rally come back this week! Luke and Skye are going to a Rally trial on Friday, it will be Skye's first Rally Novice attempt. Luke and I will be making our first attempt at an RAE leg. I took about a year off from Rally with Luke, we needed a training break, so I'm interested to see how he handles the come back. Honestly I haven't gotten in as much prep as I would like, I wanted to try and get to some local run throughs but my schedule just didn't allow it. So, we shall see!!


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Nice Hazel!!
> 
> We are making a Rally come back this week! Luke and Skye are going to a Rally trial on Friday, it will be Skye's first Rally Novice attempt. Luke and I will be making our first attempt at an RAE leg. I took about a year off from Rally with Luke, we needed a training break, so I'm interested to see how he handles the come back. Honestly I haven't gotten in as much prep as I would like, I wanted to try and get to some local run throughs but my schedule just didn't allow it. So, we shall see!!


Good luck!

I'm starting to get tempted to try for Watson's RA, but I know he's really not ready to heel off leash in new environments and with trial stress. But he's doing so well in class that I'm tempted.


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## Laurelin

Hank keeps stopping his finishes at different points on the circle. At first he was always getting into position just gine but now seems confused about where he's supposed to be.

Also we are having a lot of trouble getting straight fronts.


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## elrohwen

Laurelin said:


> Hank keeps stopping his finishes at different points on the circle. At first he was always getting into position just gine but now seems confused about where he's supposed to be.
> 
> Also we are having a lot of trouble getting straight fronts.


How did you train fronts and finishes? 

My answer to most heeling stuff is pivots. Can he pivot on a disc in front position? In heel position? Get him to move his rear to find the correct position. The disc (or a platform) will help him out.

How did you train heeling? Did you use your left hand at all as a target to help him find position? That's how I've taught heeling so I would take a step back and help the dog a couple times, then test to see if they understand position. If you taught it another way that might not work though.


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## Shep

Elrohwen's suggestion about the platform is a great idea. A little box just wide enough and long enough for him to sit on comfortably without allowing him to be crooked. Mine is about an inch or an inch and a half high. This will make it very clear to him where he is to sit on both fronts and finishes, and can eventually be faded out once muscle memory takes over.


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## kadylady

elrohwen said:


> Good luck!
> 
> I'm starting to get tempted to try for Watson's RA, but I know he's really not ready to heel off leash in new environments and with trial stress. But he's doing so well in class that I'm tempted.


Thanks!

Have you ever thought about continuing to enter Novice a few more times to get him some good ring and trial experience? You can continue to enter Novice B until the dog earns a qualifying score in Advanced.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Have you ever thought about continuing to enter Novice a few more times to get him some good ring and trial experience? You can continue to enter Novice B until the dog earns a qualifying score in Advanced.


I have considered it. I would probably enter him in novice if it was offered at a conformation show that we were already attending, but the last couple have only had obedience. After we move I might look for something that has rally and try it out.

My other option is to enter something like CDSP if I can find a local trial after we move. He can do everything required for beginner novice (do they call it starter novice? I don't remember) and they allow treats between exercises. So that might be a good option.


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## kadylady

I don't know anything about CDSP but sounds like a great option! 

First trial I've entered Luke in in over a year and of course he gets sick 2 days before. And course it's one that won't refund for illness. I'm not going at all tomorrow, just gonna eat the entry fees. Luke isn't 100% healthy and I don't want to take Skye and leave him home alone all day. So who knows when we will get to a rally trial now.


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## sydneynicole

I thought that Oli and I were at least a few months off from being able to trial and even further from being able to trial successfully. In class we went pretty smoothly through a novice rally 'course' (I'm such a noob and I'm tainted with equestrian terminology, is that what it's called? lol) with ample distractions and our trainer said we could probably get our RN easily. He hasn't needed a leash in quite a while now and it seems to be mostly heel and simple commands. Apparently I got a prodigy dog and I'm just clueless and thought he's 'meh' at obedience/rally? lol. I know he'll do okay in a trial setting as long as I were to get there early enough to get him to settle down a bit. I still have no idea about entries or if he needs to be registered with anything/one in order to earn points (another thing... are points a thing? they are in the horse world.. jeez, I need 'rally for dummies' or something)... so much to learn beyond the actual training aspect of it. Maybe we are a few months off still, but on my side, not his.

Also, after years of horse showing, when I saw the entry fees I was so relieved. I was wondering how I would afford trialing once I got addicted lol. I know there are other expenses besides entry fees, but still. So much more affordable than horses.


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## elrohwen

kadylady said:


> I don't know anything about CDSP but sounds like a great option!
> 
> First trial I've entered Luke in in over a year and of course he gets sick 2 days before. And course it's one that won't refund for illness. I'm not going at all tomorrow, just gonna eat the entry fees. Luke isn't 100% healthy and I don't want to take Skye and leave him home alone all day. So who knows when we will get to a rally trial now.


I haven't been to CDSP, but our instructor did a couple trials recently and she loves it. She thinks it would be a fantastic way to get Watson in the ring and build his confidence. The exercises are similar enough to AKC obedience, though I don't think they do the group stays. You can praise a bit (not constantly like in rally, but more than AKC ob) and you can treat between exercises. I'd like to try it out.

Sorry about Luke getting sick :-(



sydneynicole said:


> I thought that Oli and I were at least a few months off from being able to trial and even further from being able to trial successfully. In class we went pretty smoothly through a novice rally 'course' (I'm such a noob and I'm tainted with equestrian terminology, is that what it's called? lol) with ample distractions and our trainer said we could probably get our RN easily. He hasn't needed a leash in quite a while now and it seems to be mostly heel and simple commands. Apparently I got a prodigy dog and I'm just clueless and thought he's 'meh' at obedience/rally? lol. I know he'll do okay in a trial setting as long as I were to get there early enough to get him to settle down a bit. I still have no idea about entries or if he needs to be registered with anything/one in order to earn points (another thing... are points a thing? they are in the horse world.. jeez, I need 'rally for dummies' or something)... so much to learn beyond the actual training aspect of it. Maybe we are a few months off still, but on my side, not his.
> 
> Also, after years of horse showing, when I saw the entry fees I was so relieved. I was wondering how I would afford trialing once I got addicted lol. I know there are other expenses besides entry fees, but still. So much more affordable than horses.


There are a few venues that do Rally, and I think with all of them you need to be registered with them before you can enter. I've only done AKC though. 

There are generally not points in the way you're thinking of. You need to get a qualifying score 3 times in order to get a title and move on to the next level (if you want, you can generally continue to compete at the lower level if you feel that would be better for you and your dog). I would figure out the venue you're going to compete in and work on getting registered so you'll be ready to go when there is a show you want to enter. 

And yes, definitely much more affordable than horses!


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## trainingjunkie

For those interested in CDSP, here are a couple of CDSP novice runs, each with a different dog.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBjZ5aEACm4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkzHeaOvRNo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jfhlg7VJqY


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## Kyllobernese

I registered Kris in Caro Rally and she will be going to her first trial tomorrow. She also can compete in CKC Rally, Obedience and Agility and she competes in AAC Agility. They are the only types of trials they have in my area or within driving distance.

I could register Remmy, my Shih Tzu x Maltese, in CKC but he would have to be neutered and at 8 years of age, it is not worth doing it. He competes in AAC Agility and does not have to be neutered.


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## sydneynicole

elrohwen said:


> There are a few venues that do Rally, and I think with all of them you need to be registered with them before you can enter. I've only done AKC though.
> 
> There are generally not points in the way you're thinking of. You need to get a qualifying score 3 times in order to get a title and move on to the next level (if you want, you can generally continue to compete at the lower level if you feel that would be better for you and your dog). I would figure out the venue you're going to compete in and work on getting registered so you'll be ready to go when there is a show you want to enter.
> 
> And yes, definitely much more affordable than horses!


Thanks for explaining that all to me! I think I'll probably be doing AKC, which means I'll have to do that Canine Partners thing. As far as the points, or lack thereof, that makes sense. So it's just based on how many times you got a qualifying score and not total number of points earned or anything. Sounds less stressful than a point system, anyways.

edit: I just read that he'd have to be neutered to be registered with the AKC? So I guess we won't be doing that, at least for a while. Not quite ready to make that decision. I initially wanted to leave him intact but everything seems to be pointing to having him neutered. He'll be a year soon and he's a small breed anyways, but still. Sigh.


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## elrohwen

sydneynicole said:


> Thanks for explaining that all to me! I think I'll probably be doing AKC, which means I'll have to do that Canine Partners thing. As far as the points, or lack thereof, that makes sense. So it's just based on how many times you got a qualifying score and not total number of points earned or anything. Sounds less stressful than a point system, anyways.
> 
> edit: I just read that he'd have to be neutered to be registered with the AKC? So I guess we won't be doing that, at least for a while. Not quite ready to make that decision. I initially wanted to leave him intact but everything seems to be pointing to having him neutered. He'll be a year soon and he's a small breed anyways, but still. Sigh.


Some sports have points systems to qualify for national level events. Or if you're going for an OTCH (obedience championship) or MACH (agility championship) there is a point system that comes into play. But in general for your average person in the sport, you're just looking for Qs (qualifying rounds). You're mostly competing against yourself and the scoring system. You can place as well, but placement doesn't get you points or much more than bragging rights (unless you're going for an OTCH or something). 

I like that most sports allow you to compete against yourself/the course, or compete against others for placements. Like in agility, you can have a slow and steady dog and get lots of Qs and be perfectly happy. Or you can be a pro with the fastest dog and go out to win first place, not just Q. It allows for people to have different goals.

Yes, AKC does require the dog to be neutered for the PAL program. I'm not thrilled with that at all, but it is what it is.


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## ireth0

We did some heeling patterns in class tonight!

Figure 8 (the sniffing was where a meatball had been on the ground);






Fast pace;





Slow pace;


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## Kyllobernese

Kris' first Rally Trial last Saturday was fun and a learning experience. I had her in two Novice B classes. The first one, I kept getting my right and left mixed up for some reason and every time I slowed down to figure out the signs, Kris would sit like she thought she should. We did way better the second time and she would have passed if I had not misread one sign. We had had two other signs to call to front, then go to heel, once heeling to the right, one to the left without letting them sit. The third time I sent her to heel but did not give her time to sit. I could have repeated the sign if I had realized I had done it wrong but never realized I had goofed. Next time I will be better prepared as she did everything I asked of her.


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## elrohwen

Kyllobernese said:


> Kris' first Rally Trial last Saturday was fun and a learning experience. I had her in two Novice B classes. The first one, I kept getting my right and left mixed up for some reason and every time I slowed down to figure out the signs, Kris would sit like she thought she should. We did way better the second time and she would have passed if I had not misread one sign. We had had two other signs to call to front, then go to heel, once heeling to the right, one to the left without letting them sit. The third time I sent her to heel but did not give her time to sit. I could have repeated the sign if I had realized I had done it wrong but never realized I had goofed. Next time I will be better prepared as she did everything I asked of her.


That's great! Learning the signs is the hardest part.


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## elrohwen

Has anybody worked heeling grids before? I just got the workbook in the mail and I'd like to start with Watson. I'm pretty happy with his position and turns right now, but we struggle with duration and distraction. Sometimes he's actually distracted by stuff, and sometimes I think he just forgets what we're doing. lol I like that it's a systematic way to increase duration so I don't have to think too hard about it.


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## sydneynicole

Well, Oliver got loose today. After I successfully recalled him and caught him, all I could think was 'obedience class is paying off!'. That combined with all of the recall work I'm doing on the side, lol. But to be able to get his attention in that situation is definitely a side effect of classes, safe to say.


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## Kyllobernese

The one thing I learned from my first Rally is that I have to make it more fun for Kris. I am afraid I started doing the Obedience practices too soon, doing the Obedience type ring practice where you don't talk or treat in the ring so even though Kris works nicely when I am training, as soon as I enter a ring, she starts lagging. It really helped my second round at the trial to talk to her, walk faster and keep her interest. For now I am going to do a lot more treating and happy talk and see if that will help. If I can get her to heel better, it will also help if I decide to also do Obedience which I have been putting off because of the lagging. It is hard to break old habits and all I have ever done is Obedience before.


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## elrohwen

Kyllobernese said:


> The one thing I learned from my first Rally is that I have to make it more fun for Kris. I am afraid I started doing the Obedience practices too soon, doing the Obedience type ring practice where you don't talk or treat in the ring so even though Kris works nicely when I am training, as soon as I enter a ring, she starts lagging. It really helped my second round at the trial to talk to her, walk faster and keep her interest. For now I am going to do a lot more treating and happy talk and see if that will help. If I can get her to heel better, it will also help if I decide to also do Obedience which I have been putting off because of the lagging. It is hard to break old habits and all I have ever done is Obedience before.


With Watson, it helped a lot to start carrying a lotus ball filled with treats (he's not that into toys, but he loves the lotus ball) and randomly rewarding him during heeling. He really enjoys rally now and I think that was a big turning point for him. Previously I had been talking to him in a happy voice and using lots of treats, but the extra excitement from a toy made a big difference.


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## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> Has anybody worked heeling grids before? I just got the workbook in the mail and I'd like to start with Watson. I'm pretty happy with his position and turns right now, but we struggle with duration and distraction. Sometimes he's actually distracted by stuff, and sometimes I think he just forgets what we're doing. lol I like that it's a systematic way to increase duration so I don't have to think too hard about it.


My training partner uses them religiously and swears by them. She has dramatically increased duration in a dog who really needed it. I think you will love them.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> My training partner uses them religiously and swears by them. She has dramatically increased duration in a dog who really needed it. I think you will love them.


Awesome! I hope we have as much success as she did!


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## sydneynicole

Because of Tucker's illness I couldn't afford to take any classes at the training facility this time around. So I'm now trying to work towards competing solo, aside from taking so Fenzi classes although there weren't many that were appropriate for us that involve rally (still great things to learn that help over all, though). I'm working on learning the signs and getting a set printed out. I'm anxiously awaiting the precision heeling class from Fenzi next term.. I'm learning a lot on line from research/youtube and just trying to practice practice practice. But I have a couple newb questions...

-collar for competing. From what I've read chain collars are the safest option as far as being acceptable goes? What does everyone here use? He has a flat leather collar but it has a name plate - does that count as a tag?

-his first time at a trial I'm obviously not expecting much. Can/will I be excused if he's pretty unfocused/puppy like? I'm expecting some sniffing, looking around, general lack of focus lol. How bad would he have to be for us to get excused?


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## elrohwen

A flat leather collar is fine. It just can't have anything dangling off of it. Most people don't use chain collars from what I've seen. 

If you think he will sniff and be unfocused, my advise is to wait to enter. Try some fun matches or something. They won't excuse you if he's distracted but I wouldn't enter yet if that's what you're expecting.


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## parus

I don't think the collar is supposed to have any visible writing on it, not just no dangling tags, so the name plate might be a problem if a judge notices. Not sure on that, though.

The only dogs I've seen excused are ones that relieved themselves in the ring, or left the ring mid-course.


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## elrohwen

I trialed my dog with a limited slip collar and a boomerang tag. I don't think the judge looks that close. Though to be safe you could get a plain collar for trialing


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## parus

I got a collar just for when the dog's in the ring (practice or trials), myself. He seems to associate wearing it with being "on the job," which is useful. It's paracord so it feels different from his everyday collar.


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## Kyllobernese

The one Rally trial I was in, I just used Kris' flat leather collar. I did not see anyone with a chain on their dog but I think you can use a Martingale collar but it may depend on who is putting on the trial.


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## trainingjunkie

In AKC, you can have a name plate that is flat on the collar, but not one that dangles. The plate can have the dog's name and phone number but may not include the dog's titles. I complete in plates all the time, 100's of times, and they are legal. So are slip chains. So are martingales. So are flat collars. No dangling tags. No prongs.


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## sydneynicole

I can't find any fun/practice trials in my area, so I'm not sure how I would make that initial leap into trialing without just entering one. The place we were taking classes has them, but I can't afford to be training with them at the moment and it's only open to people actively taking classes. Maybe if I'd been with them longer they'd make an exception given the circumstances, but I don't feel like I'm in a place to ask since I've only done 6 sessions with them. I've worked with him at the dog park (outside the actual park area but around it so he saw the other dogs) and petco without problems - maybe I could practice while the dog park is holding their vaccine clinic to try and simulate the trial environment, lots of people/dogs talking and milling around? Or maybe he's ready and I'm just underestimating him. I don't imagine it would be a disaster, but it's his first time so I can't expect him to understand what I want of him right away. 

I think I might just use a plain collar since I'm so new to all of this getting DQ'd over a collar would be discouraging, or wait until I see what people in my area use. His name plate says "I'm Oliver" "Please call mom" and then my phone number. He doesn't have any titles as of yet lol.


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## parus

We're going for Cassius's Rally Excellent later this month, and my instructor urged me to have a go at an obedience event as well. I keep wavering between Beginner Novice and Novice.


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## trainingjunkie

parus said:


> We're going for Cassius's Rally Excellent later this month, and my instructor urged me to have a go at an obedience event as well. I keep wavering between Beginner Novice and Novice.


Is your dog solid on stays? Solid off-leash when you can't use your voice? Have you earned a CD before? The two classes are very different from one another. 

I would do the BN first if you haven't ever earned a CD before.


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## Shep

parus said:


> We're going for Cassius's Rally Excellent later this month, and my instructor urged me to have a go at an obedience event as well. I keep wavering between Beginner Novice and Novice.


Unless you are really confident about your dog's off-leash heeling and stays, enter Beginner Novice. Entering Novice before the dog understands that heeling is the same on-leash or off is a good way to teach your dog that the rules are different inside the ring than outside the ring. That's something that leads to a lot of frustration and failure. And if there's any chance your dog could interfere with another dog during group stays, it's unfair to your fellow exhibitors to put him in a stay lineup.


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## parus

Oh, he's fine at heeling, and he stays like a champ. BN just looks a lot easier for *me*, lol. Fewer things to remember.


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## TSTrainer

Finally registered Coraline for some classes to get the ball rolling on her CGC and eventually Rally. She's so enthusiastic about training it would be a sin not to do something with her (plus the whole reason I got her was to title a dog lol). 

The people were pretty confused though, I introduced myself as a dog trainer who wants to sign up for classes! The thing is, she's been doing great at home but she needs distractions and even though I'm a CGC evaluator, I can't evaluate my own dog so I need someone else to do it and she's nowhere near ready. Since I work for a pet supply chain, I get free classes at other locations and the one I signed up at has a very highly regarded trainer. I've met other trainers within the company and have been thoroughly unimpressed, but this girl has her own nonprofit charity where she trains rescues and places them into new homes. Hopefully it works out, I'd rather do this at a private club but money is tight right now so it'll have to do.


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## Kyllobernese

I have been taking Bonnie into the arena where I practice Agility so she can work around other dogs as there is not a single Obedience class in our area. I think having Poodle, Golden and Aussie in her background that it has produced a really smart, wanting to please dog. She is so happy working and I think I will aim for Rally rather than Obedience at this point. She is 9 months old now. She is one of the few dogs I have owned that did not do at least a couple of regular Obedience classes but you have to work with what you have. They had a Sanction Match and CGN (Canadian CGC) last summer so I hope they have it again this year and that she will be ready for it as it is the only one I have seen in our area. I got my CGN on Kris, my Dobe, at it a few years ago.


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## TSTrainer

Question: how easy/advisable is it to attempt Rally training without an instructor? Coraline has been doing phenomenal with her CGC stuff, I just need her to be less spastic around other dogs. I've been working on exposure and rewarding calm behavior, walking her in busy areas and I'm gonna try to bring her to work more often where obviously dogs are all the time. I just can't afford rally classes, but I really badly want to be successful with her. 

I'm taking some courses with FDSA and loving them and she's responding well to the exercises. I can print and laminate the signs and practice I'm just not sure if I should even try or if I should wait until I can pay for a class to get really serious about it.


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## trainingjunkie

I don't think there's really any need to take a rally class if you can get your dog out and about and you understand the signs. Have you attended a rally trial without your dog? Do you understand how the game is played? Do you know that the sign needs to be to the handler's right? Is your dog comfortable in all sorts of places? Do you know anyone who would get together and train with you?


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## TSTrainer

trainingjunkie said:


> I don't think there's really any need to take a rally class if you can get your dog out and about and you understand the signs. Have you attended a rally trial without your dog? Do you understand how the game is played? Do you know that the sign needs to be to the handler's right? Is your dog comfortable in all sorts of places? Do you know anyone who would get together and train with you?


I haven't been to a trial but I've read a few books and understand the rules. I am trying to get together with a local woman who also has a spoo who has been very successful at rally and agility, she teaches at the obedience club that I want to join and offered to help me.

I'm confident that her RN won't be too much of a struggle for us to get on our own but I'm hoping I'll be able to take classes for the higher levels.


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## elrohwen

TSTrainer said:


> I haven't been to a trial but I've read a few books and understand the rules. I am trying to get together with a local woman who also has a spoo who has been very successful at rally and agility, she teaches at the obedience club that I want to join and offered to help me.
> 
> I'm confident that her RN won't be too much of a struggle for us to get on our own but I'm hoping I'll be able to take classes for the higher levels.


The higher levels are not really significantly harder except that they are off leash. I trained Watson through excellent signs fairly easily. There are some trickier signs but not so tricky you won't be able to figure them out (especially with a little help in person and on the internet). The off leash heeling is really the hard part for most teams, but you don't need a rally specific class to work on that either. 

I agree with trainingjunkie that there's no need to take a class if you're willing to print out the signs and set up courses yourself. For me, that is the biggest benefit of a class. I'm happy to train heeling and the actual signs at home, but the only place we see full courses set up is in class. But my dogs never "learned" how to do rally in the class environment. Different rally classes are run differently, but all of the ones I've done (2 different places, 3 different instructors) were basically course run throughs.

ETA: Also, working around other dogs really isn't that much of a requirement for rally. Watson is a spaz, but he does well at Rally because he's in the ring by himself, even in class. Rally classes are much easier for him than obedience classes where all dogs are typically out in the ring at one time with only a few feet of separation. So if you think other dogs in a trial environment will be an issue, you can work on that plenty outside of a rally specific class, and a rally class may not help much anyway depending on how it's set up.


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## TSTrainer

Thanks! I guess in that case the main benefit of a class for me would be that Coraline would have exposure to lots of dogs and people and eventually will learn to contain her excitement. She's still such a puppy, a really tall puppy. I think I will take her to a couple trials so I can get an idea of how she will react to the crowd. I'll make it a training opportunity.


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## trainingjunkie

The first time, I would go alone. Go alone and park yourself next to the rally ring and watch it all. See where the scores are posted. See the mistakes and are common. Watch how the dogs warm up. Notice how the warm up differs from the ring performance. See what makes a great team. Watch how people manage their dogs. 

Take a notebook.

There is so much to be learned by attending alone.


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## elrohwen

TSTrainer said:


> Thanks! I guess in that case the main benefit of a class for me would be that Coraline would have exposure to lots of dogs and people and eventually will learn to contain her excitement. She's still such a puppy, a really tall puppy. I think I will take her to a couple trials so I can get an idea of how she will react to the crowd. I'll make it a training opportunity.


Trials are a whole different ball game, usually. It's like being at an outdoor festival with a million dogs around, and all the stress that comes with that. But they don't compete the course through a maze of people and dogs either, so you don't need to be able to maintain a precision heel while walking 6" away from another dog (though that's not a bad life skill). Can you find matches or show 'n' gos? That will more closely mimic a trial environment.

Has she done other classes? Are there closer/cheaper classes you can take, even just for basic obedience? Really, any type of class environment for any sport will be useful for just being around dogs and people. All of our obedience classes have been the best for working on that skill, because dogs tend to be in the ring at the same time, and we practice politely greeting people or stand for exam. Which is why I don't put Watson in obedience classes anymore. lol


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## TSTrainer

I get free group classes at my job's other locations, I brought her to a few of those (she is too advanced for them) and she's been to a few of my own (I make my coworkers take my classes so they know how to sell them to customers, those who do not have dogs use her). Usually she settles down pretty quickly and is very cooperative. 

Now that I think about it, I may be underestimating her.


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## ireth0

Yea, I honestly find the on leash aspect harder. Managing which hand it's in and moving it around them to do walk arounds or different kinds of direction changes, etc.


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## elrohwen

ireth0 said:


> Yea, I honestly find the on leash aspect harder. Managing which hand it's in and moving it around them to do walk arounds or different kinds of direction changes, etc.


I find off leash easier because I don't have to deal with the leash, but getting off leash attention in a trial environment is harder. If the dog decides to leave, he can just go.


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> The first time, I would go alone. Go alone and park yourself next to the rally ring and watch it all. See where the scores are posted. See the mistakes and are common. Watch how the dogs warm up. Notice how the warm up differs from the ring performance. See what makes a great team. Watch how people manage their dogs.
> 
> Take a notebook.
> 
> There is so much to be learned by attending alone.


Totally agree.


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## trainingjunkie

Just an FYI- at many shows, it is improper to bring an un-entered dog. The show premium will state if they are prohibited or not. Many times, this is not heavily enforced, but if your dog behaves in any way that interferes with a competitor's experience, you will be asked to leave and it will reflect poorly. That's why I would go and be a spectator without a dog for the first experience. 

When I bring a new dog to a show for the first time, I try to pick outdoor shows in public places and I stay way back. As my dog is successful, I gradually move in. I don't go ringside, I just stay in the back where I can do no harm and allow my dog to take it all in. I can't watch much or learn much on those excursions because I am totally focused on my dog.


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## TSTrainer

trainingjunkie said:


> Just an FYI- at many shows, it is improper to bring an un-entered dog. The show premium will state if they are prohibited or not. Many times, this is not heavily enforced, but if your dog behaves in any way that interferes with a competitor's experience, you will be asked to leave and it will reflect poorly. That's why I would go and be a spectator without a dog for the first experience.
> 
> When I bring a new dog to a show for the first time, I try to pick outdoor shows in public places and I stay way back. As my dog is successful, I gradually move in. I don't go ringside, I just stay in the back where I can do no harm and allow my dog to take it all in. I can't watch much or learn much on those excursions because I am totally focused on my dog.


Right, I wouldn't bring her if I wasn't sure she'd be welcome or if there was no room to hang back. I will definitely go to one alone first.


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## Kyllobernese

I have only been to one Rally trial. It was in a building and the dogs were down below and you had to go up a bunch of stairs to get up to the ring. Consequently it was really hard to watch any of the other dogs doing the Rally courses. It was too hot in the car so had to stay downstairs with Kris till my turn came. They waited till the previous dog came down the stairs, then you went up as there was very little room to pass another dog. I had taken one set of Rally classes with my little dog about three years before and it was just run throughs once a week for six weeks, no real showing you what to do but it did give me a little idea what is was all about. I had someone hold Kris while we did the walk through and the first round, I had trouble with my rights and lefts. The second time we did really well except I made a mistake on one sign, not letting her sit at heel after coming to front as the previous two times we had just walked off. I think the two hardest things for me were the pivot and the step to the side at heel. I had done lots of obedience training with Kris so she had no problem with most of the moves.


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## petpeeve

trainingjunkie said:


> Just an FYI- at many shows, it is improper to bring an un-entered dog. The show premium will state if they are prohibited or not. Many times, this is not heavily enforced, but if your dog behaves in any way that interferes with a competitor's experience, you will be asked to leave and it will reflect poorly. That's why I would go and be a spectator without a dog for the first experience.


 Totally agree with this. Also, most shows will have FEO class, for exhibition only. After paying a slightly reduced entry fee, it allows you to bring your un-entered dog onto the show grounds 'legally'. I would consider doing that for the second and possibly the third time you attend. Or as an alternative, show n go's if they' re available in your area.

As well, I would suggest getting a hard copy of the rally rulebook. That way you can easily tote it around with you, and it's a good quick reference for use even at ringside while you're learning. Absorb it so you know it like the back of your hand. Sure, the moves themselves will be fairly basic. But the subtleties and details of ring procedure, exactly how you're being scored, etc are something every competitor really should be aware of.


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## elrohwen

MrsBoats makes rally prep packs through Train Em Tasks. It's super useful to keep in your bag and reference signs. I used it each time we trialed to make sure I knew the details of each of the signs (usually do we need a "sit" or not at a particular sign)


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## sydneynicole

TSTrainer said:


> Now that I think about it, I may be underestimating her.


I was in almost this exact same situation a few pages back in this thread, lol. I found that I too underestimated my young dog. I haven't been able to trial him yet because he's still intact and he's a mixed breed, but I was concerned about how he would do in a trial setting until I really thought about it. Like your dog, he's been to group classes and has done well but he is still a rambunctious youngster (and we have reactivity on top of that, too). I don't have any fun/practice matches around me so I'm going to go to one solo just to get a feel for it, and if I feel there's something I need to work on him with based on that experience, I'll do it at home/at stores/parks etc.


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## elrohwen

I would always underestimate where you think your dog is. Better that than overestimate and trial them too early.

I waited 3 years to enter my dog, until he was consistently performing very very well in classes at multiple facilities. He had also been to well over a dozen dog shows (for confo, but he was used to the environment). Yet we had quite a steep learning curve when it was time to actually trial. I'm not sure he really knew why we were there until halfway through the third trial. Haha. My own nerves were probably 75% of the problem, but I don't know how to work through nerves without going out and doing it until you're more comfortable.


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## MrsBoats

You know....if ring nerves are becoming a problem for a handler, I would actually consider using some of the homeopathic remedies for the person on the other end of the leash. I know a lot of people who use Rescue Remedy (or actual prescription meds) for themselves before they step into a performance ring. I used lemon balm extract to keep myself from ratcheting up when I ran Lars in agility. The more cranked I got...the more cranked he got. I would take a eye dropper full about 15 or 20 mins before I ran...and it would keep me under threshold. Then staying calm when I worked my dogs in a show environment became a learned behavior. (Doesn't that sound familiar in dog training...  )


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## Shep

Scot got his first Utility Q on Sunday after three failed attempts.  He even had a halfway decent score, in spite of a substantial deduction for a no-front. As usual, distractions were a problem. He stress-sniffed the mats almost constantly while we were set up for the articles (articles have been a major stress issue for him since day one, and since that was the first exercise, I was just thrilled he made it through it). Everything else was pretty good, until we got to the second half of directed jumping and he suddenly noticed the dog in the ring next to him and almost forgot to sit on the go-out, and DID forget to sit front. Never mind, we made it!

Despite the occasional weirdness, it was a considerable improvement over his first tries. I am really hoping that more experience will mean even more improvement and hopefully the stress-sniffing, etc., will fade away.

Here's our video. Sorry it's a little too small; you may want to watch it full-screen, even though that way it's not quite as sharp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zJYcUJQgoY


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## gingerkid

Elrohwen, how is the heeling grid working for you?


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## trainingjunkie

Shep said:


> Scot got his first Utility Q on Sunday after three failed attempts. :
> 
> Very nice!!! Was that Susan Emerson judging?
> 
> Articles showed some stress, but what a great dog for working through it and doing a really, really good job. Your signals are just amazing and the STE on the diagonal didn't give you any problem at all. Great run! Congratulations!
> 
> The next legs are going to fall like dominoes. Thank you so much for sharing. You two are wonderful!


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## Shep

trainingjunkie said:


> Shep said:
> 
> 
> 
> Scot got his first Utility Q on Sunday after three failed attempts. :
> 
> Very nice!!! Was that Susan Emerson judging?
> 
> Articles showed some stress, but what a great dog for working through it and doing a really, really good job. Your signals are just amazing and the STE on the diagonal didn't give you any problem at all. Great run! Congratulations!
> 
> The next legs are going to fall like dominoes. Thank you so much for sharing. You two are wonderful!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! Our next attempt will be at a one-ring trial, so I'm hoping the distractions will be fewer.  And yes, that was Susan Emerson. Never had her before, but she was very nice and very fair.
Click to expand...


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## CptJack

I'm joining you guys here. I'm doing a crash rally course with a friend this summer - she's an agility friend who teaches and competes in rally and has suckered me - in a very informal way. Going to go meet her this evening to get some info and watch her tool around sans dog, then start working on it.

Should be fun! Maybe!


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## trainingjunkie

CptJack said:


> I'm joining you guys here. I'm doing a crash rally course with a friend this summer
> 
> Rally can be a lot of fun! I hope you enjoy it. I sure had fun with it.


----------



## CptJack

trainingjunkie said:


> Rally can be a lot of fun! I hope you enjoy it. I sure had fun with it.


I'm not prepared to say just yet how much I'll like the *sport* since I didn't even have a dog with me, but I'm sure going to enjoy hanging out and doing dog stuff with someone who actually lives in my town!

And actual rally, at least at novice, doesn't look too bad at all.


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## elrohwen

Shep said:


> Scot got his first Utility Q on Sunday after three failed attempts.  He even had a halfway decent score, in spite of a substantial deduction for a no-front. As usual, distractions were a problem. He stress-sniffed the mats almost constantly while we were set up for the articles (articles have been a major stress issue for him since day one, and since that was the first exercise, I was just thrilled he made it through it). Everything else was pretty good, until we got to the second half of directed jumping and he suddenly noticed the dog in the ring next to him and almost forgot to sit on the go-out, and DID forget to sit front. Never mind, we made it!
> 
> Despite the occasional weirdness, it was a considerable improvement over his first tries. I am really hoping that more experience will mean even more improvement and hopefully the stress-sniffing, etc., will fade away.
> 
> Here's our video. Sorry it's a little too small; you may want to watch it full-screen, even though that way it's not quite as sharp.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zJYcUJQgoY


That's fantastic! Congrats!!



gingerkid said:


> Elrohwen, how is the heeling grid working for you?


We haven't been able to work on it since we moved :-( Our apartment is way too small for more than 5 steps of heeling, and the common space outside is far too distracting for Watson. I was trying to do ring rentals but none of the places responded to my emails. Once we move in with my parents I'll try to start up again.


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## ireth0

First rally fun match tonight. Eep eep eep.


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## ireth0

And we Q'd! With a 96! Super happy with Luna, she did such a great job especially since we haven't been in classes for several months!


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## trainingjunkie

I showed my whippets this weekend in obedience and they didn't stink!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8-Ms6fWo8k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsZotPZV55g


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> I showed my whippets this weekend in obedience and they didn't stink!
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8-Ms6fWo8k
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsZotPZV55g


Yay not stinking!

Though they did much better than just not stinking ;-)


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## Shep

Excellent job, TJ!


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## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> Yay not stinking!
> 
> Though they did much better than just not stinking ;-)


Thank you so much! Pretty simple classes, but I am delighted with their much-improved attitudes!



Shep said:


> Excellent job, TJ!


Thank you so much!


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## Linsy

I'm new to this forum but my puppy (9 month old heeler/BC/pit) and I are starting rally lessons next week. I've never competed in any dog sport before so I'm both nervous and excited. Not sure when we'll actually compete, our lessons are at least a month long and we'll be practicing in several different places. We'll probably start with some fun runs or match competitions. We'll see how it goes!


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## trainingjunkie

Linsy said:


> I'm new to this forum but my puppy (9 month old heeler/BC/pit) and I are starting rally lessons next week. I've never competed in any dog sport before so I'm both nervous and excited. Not sure when we'll actually compete, our lessons are at least a month long and we'll be practicing in several different places. We'll probably start with some fun runs or match competitions. We'll see how it goes!


How exciting!!! I hope you love it. No rush to competition, it'll happen when the time is right. Rally is a blast! Enjoy!


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## Bentwings

We just turned the corner on Rally tonight. I'm going to visit two training centers this week and my favorite is going to start classes in Jan. The schedules are such that we could hit classes three days a week at three different training centers. They are all about the same prices so that's ok. I'll trade two obed classes and replace with Rally. Maybe add a class later. All are ongoing so you can come and go.

First things first so I'll try and learn as much as possible. 

There are two events the first part of Dec so I'll take in those to see what goes on then decide on what level of participation we want to pursue. Looks like it's fun.


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## Linsy

trainingjunkie said:


> How exciting!!! I hope you love it. No rush to competition, it'll happen when the time is right. Rally is a blast! Enjoy!


Thanks! I hope I love it, too. Traditional obedience and agility scare the pants off me right now but rally seems like a good place to start. I'm trying not to worry too much about trialing. We're still proofing things, especially with other dogs present. And I'm pretty sure my handling stinks but that's what lessons are for, right?


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## Kyllobernese

We have no classes in Rally in our area and very few trials but we do have an indoor arena where we can practice. Right now there are just two of us setting the courses up and practicing. Last Friday the other person went to learn some of the signs we were having trouble with. I could not go as I had an Agility trial and it was the only time the person (who judges CKC Rally) had time for an hour lesson. She lives about a four hour drive away so I will find out on Wednesday at our arena how things went. I have not gone to any CKC trials but did go to one Caro trial and would have passed in the second trial if I had not made a mistake at one of the signs so I think Kris should do alright with a little more practice doing the signs and me knowing what to do.


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## elrohwen

Yay for more Rally people!! I really enjoy Rally


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## elrohwen

I started private obedience lessons with the Welsh dogs a couple weeks ago. I couldn't find any classes here that met my criteria (+R trainers and a setting that didn't make me stand shoulder to shoulder with other dogs while waiting our turn). So far so good! My primary goal with Watson is increasing heeling during with heeling grids, which was basically my goal back in April before my life became chaotic and we stopped training. I haven't done much obedience with Hazel at all so we're putting together the heeling foundations that I have done. I'm also working on fronts with both of them, because it's something we're never really trained to a high level and needs some cleaning up.


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## Bentwings

I just got home from visiting a Rally class very close to me. Looks like I'm in! There were about 10 people of about 20 that come and go. Only one had the first novice title. Most were pretty good. We have to learn the left about turn which I just haven't done, but it's not hard. The other we just haven't done is step back and call to front with finish. There is lots of handler help allowed so that makes it easier. Overall it was pretty easy going. Maybe a little too much yacking about home and kids but everyone is younger than I so it's to be expected.

I think I'll just print out the stations from the AKC site and I can practice one or two a night in my living room. I'll try the left about turn tomorrow night at class.


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## Linsy

I just have to say that reading all of this makes me so excited for our lesson on Thursday!


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## Linsy

My first private lesson is tomorrow! :whoo:

Couple of questions...
What's a heeling grid? I've looked up examples on youtube but still not sure I understand.
How do you prepare your dog for the trial environment? Find some group classes after our private lessons? Fun runs and match comps? I found a puppy foundation agility class that I thought might be a good idea just to get him used to working around other dogs without being able to interact, idk if that's a good idea?
What's a typical training session look like outside of class? Just wondering if I'm on the right track... 

Mornings we work on proofing around distractions followed by some exercise, daytime is for boring stuff like sit/downs stay, and evenings we work on a few signs then take a break to play, then add a few more signs, then play, etc.

I've been using the flirt pole (his favorite) to try to get faster downs, and working on front, which is our weakest finish - I really want him driving towards me and sitting as close as possible, and not looking at my hand for food. I've put the the food in a bowl where he can see them so it's not in my hand anymore and that's helped a little. Also, sometimes he just starts offering behaviors - he'll go from front automatically to left without waiting for me to say 'get in.' I've tried giving him a few treats in a row while he's in front finish and then cueing the left or right - is there a better way? Do you think he's just anticipating the next command (I'm mixing it up a lot more now) or is he confused? Overall he's a very eager little guy.


----------



## petpeeve

Linsy said:


> Also, sometimes he just starts offering behaviors - he'll go from front automatically to left without waiting for me to say 'get in.' I've tried giving him a few treats in a row while he's in front finish and then cueing the left or right - is there a better way? Do you think he's just anticipating the next command (I'm mixing it up a lot more now) or is he confused?


 In order to reduce or eliminate anticipation, be unpredictable and vary your routine. Try releasing your dog immediately after rewarding for front. Just for example about 50 % of the time you can reward front then break it off and play, 25 % of the time add a swing finish, and 25 % do an around finish. Also vary the time interval your dog remains in front position before you issue a release or a finish cue.


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## trainingjunkie

Heeling Grids were created by Laura Rominik. In a nutshell, it's a list of staggered numbers of steps that a handler/dog should heel before breaking off and rewarding. It's a fun way to truly randomize reinforcement in the heeling exercise. Pretty cool stuff.

To prepare a dog for the environment? That's sort of a million dollar question. All dogs need different things. Go and heel everywhere! McDonalds, the park, across the street, in your front yard... Classes and fun matches are great too. Just go everywhere and do really simple things. Build your dog's confidence incrementally.

My typical training sessions? If I'm working away from home, I work my dogs for 3 minutes on simple heeling exercises. I literally set a timer. Fast and fun and easy. At home, I might work a few exercises for 10 minutes. I rarely train more than twice a day. Short sessions. Not much repetition. Keep it fun.

I don't understand what you mean about "working on front, which is our weakest finish." Front means come and sit in front. Finish means to go and sit in heel position. A front isn't a finish, but it typically comes before a finish. If your dog is auto-finishing, you probably need to build in a longer pause in front and not get rushed. Slow it down. For nice, close fronts, I like to reward from my mouth. You can either drop food from your mouth, or just take a treat from your mouth and lower it to your dog. It gets dogs really focused on your face. If your dog isn't coming in close enough, a platform can help. Another thing that helps is sometimes letting a dog run between your legs to a thrown treat rather than always stopping your dog in front. Makes things fun. Varying up all of these techniques will really build tight fronts.

Good luck with your lesson! I hope you have a blast!


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie explained heeling grids well. It's just an easy way to randomize reinforcement and gradually build up heeling duration. Laura Romanik sells a log book that includes the directions, the reinforcement rate grids, and pages to record your sessions.

Preparing a dog for a trial environment depends so much on the dog. For some dogs it's just about exposure. They go, they have good experiences, it's fine. For others it needs to be a lot more systematic. And beyond the environment, every dog needs to learn to work for reinforcement off of your body. The first couple times you can probably "trick" them, where they think you have food on you but you don't. But most will figure that out quickly. It's better to teach them that you don't have anything on you, but that's ok because reinforcement will be available outside the ring. Group classes are nice to learn to work around more distraction, but at a trial there won't be another dog in the ring with you anyway, so I don't hink they help all that much with trial preparedness.

Training sessions outside of class depend so much on the team. Some people train more and some less. In general sessions should be short and you should have a goal. Don't just run through all of the stuff your dog knows - set out a plan to work on fronts, for example, and decide how you're going to do it, what the steps are, and what you are looking for from the dog. You'll get a lot more accomplished with a plan and a short session than in just randomly trying stuff for 15min.

For your front issue, I would stop cuing finishes entirely for a little while. Take that out of the equation so you can focus on how close he is and add it back in later. By always doing front + finish he's learning to anticipate, and you're adding a lot of variables into your trainin session when really you want to focus on being close in front position.


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## Bentwings

First since quite a few have expressed interest in Rally it might be good to simply put your dog's breed or combination and call name in your signature. Each dog has its own characteristics and needs even though the event or exercise is the same for all. Training to do this is not the same for all breeds or individuals. 

I like the 3-5 minute training sessions when out for walks noted above. I do this nearly every day. Sometimes a parking lot. Grassy area beside a busy street, on the walkway over the busy freeway and on our sidewalk to the appartment to name a few. I like my dog to explore new places, I restrict anything dangerous....walking over a pile of wood pallets, poking into culverts and standing water.

Regarding "working in front" noted above, Rally has several front exercises so it's well worth it to work on thes. There are two finishes too. One is a finish left, the dog goes to your left, turns and sits,downs, or stands as needed. The other is the wrap around, pretty standard. For me and Sam, we already have both. I use separate commands. Left finish is our command to come to heel "fuss" (German 'foose'). The wrap around to your right is just a hand signal, a sweep around your right side. Pretty typical obedience command.

So I've learned already that you can use considerable handler help as long as you don't touch the dog. So help the dog wherever you can, at least in training. There are lots of YouTube videos. Try to watch a few perfect scores and a few first timers. 

So here is how I approach these. I think you are referring this to the exercise " call to finish". Just a note here about my dog. She is an extreme energy, high drive, over the top type dog. You have to be able to take the dog from heel position to a front position. You can step back and use a sweeping motion with your arm. Add a food treat and most dogs respond well. I add "front" command which is done with my hand like I was lining something up straight in front. Bring the dog in close to you with the food treat, head up and sit. From here use your left hand sweeping over to heel position. You can use your heel position command. Again food helps here. For the wrap around your right side, I just use my right hand sweeping around my right side with no command. Standard finish from a recall exercise. If you want to use a command that's ok. In these exercises the dog needs to stay close to you and again look like he is having fun, maybe even showing off! 

Rally is not a strict formal event. It's supposed to be fun, your dog is supposed look like he is just having a blast walking around all these stations with you. If you smile too it helps relieve the " tension" you create.

This is the beginning of what I was told and instructed, I'm just shaping my training to fit the sport and offering here what I do. 

Last night in obedience training we practiced 360. Turns, 90 turns, and 270 turns both left and right. It's a little tricky with 20 dogs in the class but position yourself so you don't get in the way of other dogs. We sometimes go to a corner and do the exercise as the rest of the class goes by. Fortunately the trainer allows me to work a bit independently as we move much faster than the rest of the group. Before class we did the front exercises and double about turn left. This was the first time ever for Sam....she did well. 

Byron


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## Linsy

Thanks for all the advice. 

Ringo has a pretty good left and right finish, but his fronts are sometimes crooked and for a while he was sitting a little too far away. I have not put front on cue yet. What we did yesterday in our lesson was sit on the edge of a chair and have him come up between my knees as close as he could get. We did this at home this morning combined with our get-it game and he kept running back every time, and there's been some improvement already. Once he's got the close part down, I'll work on rewarding only straight fronts. We've been mixing things up so he doesn't always jump back into heel. 

Our lesson was fun yesterday. Practiced heeling on the right side (something I haven't done a lot of) and perch work on different surfaces (bowl, disc, plate), left and right. We played the "crazy owner" game where I just went through the course in however I wanted, throwing in random paces and turns to get him really focusing on me. Sit and down stays while I walked around the outside of the cones, call front, moving down, sit for examination. He had a few distractions (trainer's dog, some cats) but overall he did really well! I'm excited for next time.

I think I'll try practicing in front of a mirror just to watch myself, what my hands are doing and what my own body language is saying. Gotta make sure I look like I'm having fun too.


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## elrohwen

Linsy said:


> I think I'll try practicing in front of a mirror just to watch myself, what my hands are doing and what my own body language is saying. Gotta make sure I look like I'm having fun too.


Practice your footwork too! That's definitely an area I need to work on more myself without the dog.


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## Bentwings

That's a good point. There are two types of turns too. A normal quick step off type and a pivot turn. This being a pivot in place by you and the dog is to follow closely. I think this is in the advanced bracket, I forgot to ask, I'll have to check.


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## Linsy

Yes, good point! 

Speaking of trial environments, we're going to check out the Cynosport World Games tomorrow. They have agility, rally, dock diving and lure coursing run-thrus for pet dogs to try. Susan Garrett is there, I believe, but I have no idea when she's running.


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## Bentwings

Well, I've been to three more rally classes just watching and asking questions.

For the call to front exercises most use a very animated sweeping motion usually with both hands. In training use a treat, otherwise just the motion. Most use a step back at the same time. Since handler help is ok this works great to get the dog straight and close to you.

Last night I got to watch Rally advanced training. It's was pretty easy going with all teams making mistakes. Mostly handler error not knowing the signs. The trainer said this is common. You need to do your homework...seems I heard this almost 60 years ago. Haha

I've seen a variety of dogs. Mostly Goldens. A couple Aussies, Border Collies, Grey Hounds, a Bernese, a couple Shelties and a bunch of Labs. None is particularly advantageous. How well the dog works with you is far more important. Speed isn't a huge factor until you get to events where the better trainers attend, then it's possible to have scores tied so speed is the tie breaker. It's not uncommon to have multiple perfect scores so speed again is the tie breaker.

Somewhere I saw a post with sites listed where you can print 8 1/2 X 11 signs and matching instructions so you can create your own layout for training. I can't find this so if anyone has this please post it.

We are going to enter Rally classes at two training centers right after Thanksgiving. 

Thanks.


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## Linsy

Great info, thanks! The only thing about private lessons is I'm the only one making mistakes, lol. I've been trying to record myself more so I can go back and watch what I'm doing.

I definitely need to memorize the signs. I chickened out last minute at the rally run-thru because I didn't feel like I knew the signs well enough! Ringo did about as well as I expected him to do in an environment full of running, barking dogs and lots of people. He was pretty distracted at first. He really liked lure coursing, so that may be something to get into as well. It was fun, though. Lots of Aussies, BC's, goldens and labs, and I was in total Malinois heaven. There isn't anything those dogs can't do! I will have one...some day. I think a Golden will be my next puppy.

I'm definitely going to set up my own course soon with cones and signs. Second lesson is tomorrow! I've been trying to build up his toy drive so we can use more toys. I found two that work pretty well so it's a start!


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## elrohwen

Here's a good list of all the signs. Not large enough to print out the individual signs, but they have the descriptions. When I was learning them myself I liked to go down the list and work on random signs that we struggled with. Or make flashcards and pull out a random one and make sure I immediately knew what it was. I think it's important to go through them one by one before trying to string them together in a course which gets confusing quickly!
http://www.hoytt.com/description_rallyexercises.pdf


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## elrohwen

Ugh, forum ate my post.

Ok, so here's a list of all the signs that you can print: http://images.akc.org/pdf/events/rally/signs_2012.pdf?_ga=1.121993227.1892754677.1476303778

And here is a handy list of signs with descriptions: http://www.hoytt.com/description_rallyexercises.pdf

I liked practicing them one by one and having flashcards to pull out and see if I knew immediately what it meant. It's also handy to have the descriptions on hand at classes or trials in case you want to look up a sign and make sure you're doing it right. Little things like when you need to pause and for how long, vs when you shouldn't pause, can get you if you're not careful.


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## Linsy

Thank you! SO helpful. I'm gonna do the flashcards for sure.


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## trainingjunkie

If you want the signs in flash card format, take a peek at these! Great product and great customer service. https://www.trainemtasks.com/collec...-39-cards-with-signs-descriptions-and-scoring


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## elrohwen

trainingjunkie said:


> If you want the signs in flash card format, take a peek at these! Great product and great customer service. https://www.trainemtasks.com/collec...-39-cards-with-signs-descriptions-and-scoring


Yep, I have one of those too and it's super useful either for practicing, or for taking to trials to review rules of specific signs.


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## trainingjunkie

elrohwen said:


> Yep, I have one of those too and it's super useful either for practicing, or for taking to trials to review rules of specific signs.


I absolutely LOVE the heeling pattern pack.


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## Bentwings

Thanks for the links!
Last night the instructor had everyone do the first round of run throughs then explained the problem areas.

The figure eight with distraction thru everyone as she set it up as " offset figure eight" even though the sigh doesn't say this. The judge may orient this one at a 45 deg angle rather than head on. The point is you must cross the center line three times and exit opposite where you entered. You have to sit and draw this one on paper. I think the card or rules show the correct paths. Of the " easy ones" this one can get you every time. You could lose three or more points quickly on this one.

There was one advanced team attending and they flopped this one about four or five times before getting it right. Not as easy as it looks. 

I'm pretty excited about getting into this. Sam and I have already started working in refining the basics and some of the signs I can remember. The flash cards will really help when we are out for walks. 

Thanks again for the links.

Byron


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## trainingjunkie

You're welcome for the links! 

Wish me luck! My dog and I are trying to finish our RAE this weekend. We need 2 legs and we are entered for 3! Should be fun.


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## Bentwings

Good luck!! Let us know how you do.

One thing I miss at these events is a judges critique. Apparently it is inappropriate for the judge to do this. It certainly would take more time but it would be helpful to the team to know the faults as well as let others know so they can progress. In my previous dog sports this was an important part of the event. Almost like a seminar for each team. It also was informative for spectators. 

The reason I chose the two training centers to attend after Thanksgiving was that the instructors do do this for each team. They are able to essentially teach all the teams at the same time regardless of their achievements.

So again, good fortune! 

Byron


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## trainingjunkie

Thank you! We got a leg today with a 100 in Excellent and 100 in advanced and won the high combined. A nice day!


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## Bentwings

Oh that's so nice! Congratulations! Nothing like a clean sweep! You are now the expert here so we newbee's will be looking for tips and guidance.

Byron


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## Linsy

Congratulations! That's a huge achievement! And yes, thanks for the links! I bought the heeling packet and the rally one. I think they'll both be pretty helpful.

Yesteday's lesson was good and bad. We were outside and there was a cat nearby that was really doing a dozy on his prey drive but we made it through the course three times and he did pretty well. Hopefully I can get a course set up at home to practice on too.


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## Linsy

Very cool to watch! Well done to both of you!


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## elrohwen

Congrats, trainingjunkie!


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## Kyllobernese

Well, I now have all the CKC Rally signs and how to do them all. I will now be able to practice the ones I did not know and hopefully be able to get Kris into some trials next year. I still do some practice runs in Agility with her as she loves doing it but not sure whether to trial with her or not. Hard to do everything as only so many weekends in a year and I do Agility trials with Lucy and am also training Bonnie who is just over a year old so just getting serious with her. Right now I split my time on Wednesdays and Saturdays at the arena into a half hour with Kris doing Rally, a half hour of Agility with Bonnie, and the rest of the time doing Agility with Lucy.


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