# P&G - Natura - Innova, Evo, California Naturals, Healthwise and Karma



## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

It's been a while since the buyout and I had some questions. 

Has anyone noticed any changes yet? Are your dogs still eating the the Natura products? Did you switch you dogs to another brand? If so, what brand?


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I stopped buying anything from Natura since the buyout. Such a shame, because I really like their foods. So far, I haven't seen anything different with the ingredient list or anything, but no idea if they changed anything about where they source their ingredients.

I might still get the Innova/EVO/California Natural treats, but that's about it. In a pinch, I may get EVO, but as long as there are other choices, I won't.

I removed EVO from Cadence's rotation and now he gets one of these: Wellness CORE, Orijen, Acana and I may possibly add Canidae in the future.


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## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

I have 2 coupons for a free bag (5-6.6 lb) of food... They normally cost about $23 a bag in my area. I really wanted to try the evo line. $50 (2 bags + tax) worth of coupons is not worth my dogs' health... but maybe I'll still pick it up if I can find bags that are before the buyout.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

I'm still feeding EVO red meat - very happy with it and have yet to see any difference


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## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

This might sound like a dumb ? but would the new bags say P&G and not Natura? Has anyone bought the ones that already say P&G?


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## doginthedesert (Jun 18, 2010)

I know a few people that switched at the buyout. The worry for them was not that they would actually see a difference, but that they lost confidence in where the source of the ingredients was. I doubt it is going to change ingredients, just where they come from.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

Innova was bought out too? I had no idea :/ anyone have a link to an article or something?


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I stopped feeding evo after the buy out mine are on honest kitchen.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I pulled Evo out of Frag's rotation too. 

Along with the source of ingredients, I read that they don't have to change their printed ingredient list if one thing changes, and if a lot change, they have 6 months to update it.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

It's interesting that so many jump the gun and stop using a product because of a buy out. It's certainly a personal choice, but unless I notice a change either in a) the quality/ingredients/etc and/or b) how my dog handles it - I wouldn't change.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Too many dogs have died needlessly that ate food manufactured by large companies that dont wish to speak up and take responsibility until have to when something goes wrong to want to take chances.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

^ exactly..and if I pay 50 bucks for a bag of food , you bet your butt I want to know I am paying for the exact ingredients that are on the list. Since they have up to 6 months to change the ingredients , and since they don't have to post ALL changes on the ingredient list , I want to make sure I am paying extra for something that REALLY is "extra" . If they decide to change one ingredient..say like , add tons of corn to make the food less expensive to them , but same price to us...well , I want to know about it before I continue to pay high grade food prices.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Yvonne said:


> Too many dogs have died needlessly that ate food manufactured by large companies that dont wish to speak up and take responsibility until have to when something goes wrong to want to take chances.



In all fairness, that could be said for any dog food manufacturer. The only way to really solve this would be to feed raw I suppose.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

blue buffalo just had an issue one that was not dangerous to the health of the dogs and they stepped up and announced the problem and made it right with all of its consumers without being forced to and showed they truly care about our dogs.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

I may try Blue Buffalo ..I have been meaning to anyway. They seem to be in stock more often at my supply store.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Loki Love said:


> In all fairness, that could be said for any dog food manufacturer. The only way to really solve this would be to feed raw I suppose.


No, I'm pretty sure there are many dog food manufacturers that have not killed thousands of dogs for decades.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> No, I'm pretty sure there are many dog food manufacturers that have not killed thousands of dogs for decades.


Brilliant. :clap2:

We'll just have to agree to disagree on hitting the panic button when it comes to changing dog food


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

Until we ALL start immediately hitting the panic button and are suspicious buyers , we can all be rest assured that kids toys will still have lead in them , baby bottles will still have toxic BPA in them , dollar store toothpastes will still make people sick , deadly melamine will still turn up in baby formula and diseased euthanized companion animals will still end up in pet food. 

I would never jump ship on a product just because it was sold..but the labeling laws , or rather lack of them , make me want to be reassured that they are still using high grade ingredients for the high price I am paying. Simple as that. I am paying for X..X is no longer made by Y ..it is made by Z. Z needs to tell me I am still getting the same product as X ..by law they do not HAVE to do this. 

I guess IMO I feel that where you spend your dollars is the only real voice we have these days. If the company that purchased these foods intends to maintain the safe and high quality ingredients , a statement saying so would be enough to keep me with the product. In fact , if I purchased a revered product my first order of business would be to reassure my customers I am going to uphold the same standards. If I feel reasonably ensured that I will still be getting food from the same safer sources that I am paying top dollar for , I would continue to buy from the company.

Manufacturing practices involved in ALL products will remain inscrutable and potentially harmful products will continue to hit our shelves as long as we are apathetic about where we spend our money.


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## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

sandydj said:


> Innova was bought out too? I had no idea :/ anyone have a link to an article or something?


Here's just one link - Just google it if you want more info

http://www.pginvestor.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=104574&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1422726


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

It is up to us to stop buying until safety and not profit margin is a companies top priority.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks for the link. If they were bought by Proctor and Gamble , the makers of IAMS , I have zero faith that they will not use the same less expensive resources they use for IAMS . I would need to see a company statement to the contrary to continue paying extra for Innova.

Anyone who knows anything about businesses knows that after a take over , cutting costs is first agenda on the table. If they have the buying power of IAMS from the rendering facilities , I doubt they will retain the high grade food sources Innova uses. And I'm sure they won't lower the prices on the food to reflect that.I would need some assurance they were going to continue to buy the good and more expensive ingredients in the food I pay for now. 

In other words..until someone specifically tells me I am NOT paying for Innova but getting IAMS , I will spend my money elsewhere. Of all the companies out there Proctor and Gamble is one of the least likely to get my blind trust. 

The fact that they do not legally have to report any ingredient changes on the label in an expeditious and truthful manner makes me a wary consumer when it comes to stuff like this.


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## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Loki Love said:


> It's interesting that so many jump the gun and stop using a product because of a buy out. It's certainly a personal choice, but unless I notice a change either in a) the quality/ingredients/etc and/or b) how my dog handles it - I wouldn't change.


To many people, the problem isn't so much the quality or ingredients, but on the principle that we just DON'T want to buy ANYTHING made by P&G. They do needless, cruel and inhumane animal testing. It's disgusting. I don't buy anything made by P&G anymore. This includes daily things like shampoo, soap, etc. No way in hell I'm going to feed my dog something made by that company. They certainly don't deserve my $$.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

lucidity said:


> To many people, the problem isn't so much the quality or ingredients, but on the principle that we just DON'T want to buy ANYTHING made by P&G. They do needless, cruel and inhumane animal testing. It's disgusting. I don't buy anything made by P&G anymore. This includes daily things like shampoo, soap, etc. No way in hell I'm going to feed my dog something made by that company. They certainly don't deserve my $$.


That I can actually respect. I don't have much respect for people who simply jump onto a bandwagon for the sake of it being a bandwagon and from a few people who hit a panic button.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I used to feed Cal Nat and Evo but currently don't. Here's my opinion. If my dogs were on foods from Natura Pet just for the heck of it, for no reason in particular, I'd change them to something else. If they were on it for a reason, I'd stick with it for as long as it worked. My Boone was on Cal Nat herring for two years straight, it was the first food that worked with his many ear infections. If he were still on it now, I'd continue with it


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I think recently a few people have posted about a new bag of Innova or Cal Natural giving their dogs loose stool and vomiting. Not sure if it's related to the buyout and change in ingredients or not though. 

I really liked Natura for not outsourcing their ingredients but I don't really think I will use their products in the future. Although I never fed that much of Natura foods in the first place.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Loki Love said:


> That I can actually respect. *I don't have much respect for people who simply jump onto a bandwagon for the sake of it being a bandwagon and from a few people who hit a panic button*.


And I don't have much respect for supporting disgusting companies such as P&G. Different strokes.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> And I don't have much respect for supporting disgusting companies such as P&G. Different strokes.


Uhm, yep - that's what makes the world go round. Thank goodness people have different opinions - how boring would it be if we all thought the same thing always? 

I, personally, have no issue with P&G for the moment. I wasn't thrilled about them buying out Natura, but until I see/hear/read about changes to the formula - I'm pretty content to stick with EVO. It is what has worked the best for my puppers and cats up until now and I'm not willing to jeopardize tummy upset because of my own personal beliefs. At this point, I'm putting them first (because we HAVEN'T heard of any formula changes, etc and I simply do not assume the worst).

It would be silly to expect everyone to think the same way - I do like it when people think for themselves though.


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## clickntreat (Feb 19, 2010)

sandydj said:


> Until we ALL start immediately hitting the panic button and are suspicious buyers , we can all be rest assured that kids toys will still have lead in them , baby bottles will still have toxic BPA in them , dollar store toothpastes will still make people sick , deadly melamine will still turn up in baby formula and diseased euthanized companion animals will still end up in pet food.
> 
> I would never jump ship on a product just because it was sold..but the labeling laws , or rather lack of them , make me want to be reassured that they are still using high grade ingredients for the high price I am paying. Simple as that. I am paying for X..X is no longer made by Y ..it is made by Z. Z needs to tell me I am still getting the same product as X ..by law they do not HAVE to do this.
> 
> ...


I couldn't agree more - well said!!


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## Shandwill (Jul 23, 2010)

We were already in the process of switching from Innova Large Breed when I heard about the buyout. Prices had skyrocketed here, and we could no longer afford it, but the buyout certainly didn't improve my feelings. We now feed Fromm's and couldn't be happier. One of my pups used to turn his nose up at mealtime, but now the dogs are CRAZY about their food to the point that I even use it as training treats sometimes. The ingredients are top notch, the customer service has been excellent, and the price is reasonable for a food that I feel much better about, overall.


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## camoreno (Sep 16, 2010)

I had no idea about the buyout. I need to read the forum more often. I put Roma on CORE Wellness last year, and just put her back on Innova last week! I made the change as I am trying to find the cause of her itching. I guess it is back to CORE.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

camoreno said:


> I had no idea about the buyout. I need to read the forum more often. I put Roma on CORE Wellness last year, and just put her back on Innova last week! I made the change as I am trying to find the cause of her itching. I guess it is back to CORE.


Why would you put her back on CORE if you switched from it for a reason? Not saying you need to stick it out with Innova (unless you saw improvements.. but that's just my opinion).


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## josh83 (Jan 26, 2010)

You may want to look at this: http://www.evopet.com/tools/faqs-natura-pg.asp


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

Josh 83, 

No offense, but part of establishing good sources is also determining where the sources are from. While it's good to get multiple viewpoints, getting a viewpoint from someone defending their own company is, of course, going to speak highly in favor of themselves. Also, nothing in there mentions _where_ the ingredients are coming from specifically. They say they will maintain "superior quality" but that is not qualitative, it's an opinion of what they think is superior quality and P&G may have a different view of what is "superior quality". A lot of their statements are concerning to me also, such as "That said, Natura has always, and will continue to upgrade its formulas based on the latest nutritional advancements.". Latest nutritional advances based on whose research? P&G's? Of course, any of these questions can be asked of multiple companies but with P&Gs track record I'm much more skeptical. 

I feed Wellness so this isn't a direct concern of mine right now. However, if I were feeding one of these brands I would stop. Better safe than sorry.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

All of those faq answers are smoke screens. Will you use the same ingredients? Yes. Beef is beef is beef is beef..but is it? They claim they will use same "same high quality proteins " I DO NOT have the same opinion as IAMS when it comes to what constitutes high quality proteins.

I called them directly , because I am not happy with indirect answers. I don't want to pay for human grade meat sources when I am fact getting products from a rendering plant. 

I'm not paying premium for cheap.

Listen , call them and ask specifically " will you ( Natura)be getting your proteins and grains from the same source that Purina and Iams do? "

I called them and asked that..the amount of fancy footed answering without answering techniques is an absolute hoot.


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

sandydj said:


> All of those faq answers are smoke screens. Will you use the same ingredients? Yes. Beef is beef is beef is beef..but is it? They claim they will use same "same high quality proteins " I DO NOT have the same opinion as IAMS when it comes to what constitutes high quality proteins.
> 
> I called them directly , because I am not happy with indirect answers. I don't want to pay for human grade meat sources when I am fact getting products from a rendering plant.
> 
> ...


You bring up a really interesting point - I've just emailed and asked this very question. I'm quite interested in reading the response I get.


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## josh83 (Jan 26, 2010)

I totally agree with you Nil. I just put that link up there because i thought people would be interested in seeing it. Just to make it clear i do not work for this dog food company so I am not trying to defend it in anyway.


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## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Someone was wondering about this on the Aussie message board where I belong.

Long story short, the ingredients will stay the same FOR THE TIME BEING. The total P&G takeover will take another 6 months, so I think we have 6 months left to enjoy delicious EVO before switching.

Too bad.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

That is what they just told me today at my feed store .. the bags they have are guaranteed to be the same EXACT ingredients and SOURCES..for 6 months. I bought a bag of Innova..last one , because I bought a bag of Blue Buffalo along with it..this way I can transition them slowly.


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## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

I bought my last bag of EVO Red Meat too. To be fair, I only ever purchased one bag anyway, to help my Aussie gain weight after Giardia.

Right now, the management team is still the same at Natura. That is scheduled to change. Once that changes, I feel the food is going to be more widely distributed. 

Sucks it has to be all about $.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

sandydj said:


> That is what they just told me today at my feed store .. the bags they have are guaranteed to be the same EXACT ingredients and SOURCES..for 6 months. I bought a bag of Innova..last one , because I bought a bag of Blue Buffalo along with it..this way I can transition them slowly.


So, after the six mos, they can get from other sources? I'll stick with what I feed


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## Squeeker (Dec 15, 2007)

We fed Libby Innova Puppy when she was a pup, and then rotated between EVO andd Orijen until the buyout when we went to straight Orijen. Sawyer is on Wellness Puppy becuase I feel that Orijen Puppy has too much protein. We'll be rotating the dogs between Orijen and Wellness CORE fron now on.


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## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Just got some clarification on the issue:

While the merger "officially took place", all old management is still running Natura. Over the coming months, P&G will completely take the reigns over at Natura. This means they control everything from source of food, ingredients, distribution, etc. 

Better to switch now.


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## sandydj (Sep 27, 2010)

That is what I did. At least we have notice and can do a gradual change without stomach upset. I bought a big bag of Innova ( our last) and a new bag of Blue Buffalo Wilderness ( I was wanting to go grain free anyway) ..Funny ,I tried it today ..a few handfuls , and they prefer it to the Innova. There was no Wilderness or added chicken/beets left in the bowl..just Innova .  So at least they like it


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## Nell (Oct 21, 2010)

It is exactly as people in this thread say. I am happy to see people that are aware that companies really won't become socially conscious unless people stop buying from them. The boom in green products is not a result of an altruism spree, it happens because these products sell, and sell well at profitable margins while creating a new niche. 
It's a process akin to evolution. If companies cannot adapt, their customers will move on to sustain companies that do. Customers use money as a vote for who gets to survive and who doesn't. So. way to go, to those that switched, and those who know what companies are able to get away with legally.


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## camoreno (Sep 16, 2010)

Has anyone heard of or tried the brand "Orijin"?
I just learned of this and will do my research before I try it with Roma. Just looking for any one who has had any experience with it.

Thank you.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

camoreno said:


> Has anyone heard of or tried the brand "Orijin"?
> I just learned of this and will do my research before I try it with Roma. Just looking for any one who has had any experience with it.
> 
> Thank you.


I haven't been able to try it because I can't find it locally, but I've heard nothing but great reviews and it's one of the best dog foods to buy. I wouldn't hesistate to use it if I could.


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## Nell (Oct 21, 2010)

I live in Canada, so I decided to switch my mini schnauzer to Orijin. We'll see how it goes. 
BTW there are a lot of threads about Orijin in this forum, use the Search feature and you'll see them all.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

camoreno said:


> Has anyone heard of or tried the brand "Orijin"?
> I just learned of this and will do my research before I try it with Roma. Just looking for any one who has had any experience with it.
> 
> Thank you.


Yes, we have used Orijen. It's a very good food. We're currently using Acana, which is made by Champion foods that also makes Orijen. We'll go back to Orijen next bag


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## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

I used my 2 coupons and got the 6.6lbs bags of Evo Red Meat and Salmon/Herring. Just had to pay the tax - about $3 for $60 worth of dog food. I havent opened them yet, I know some people are still using it... We'll see how it goes. (IF I use them)


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## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

Where did you get that coupon?


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## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

surftb15 said:


> Where did you get that coupon?


The Natura website.

http://www.naturapet.com/


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Mar 8, 2010)

I think I'm going to get a couple of those coupons  How did you get two?


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

blue buffalo just had an issue one that was not dangerous to the health of the dogs and they stepped up and announced the problem and made it right with all of its consumers without being forced to and showed they truly care about our dogs>>>>

I dont know if thats entirely true. Ive heard some negatives such as - http://www.petconnection.com/blog/2010/10/28/another-blue-buffalo-fail-and-a-metacam-warning/
also inc Vit D levels can lead to bone loss and abnormally high serum calcium levels, which could result in kidney stones and the calcification of organs like the heart and kidneys. Blue buffalo also init denied there food could be the cause of the Vitamin D toxicity that was being reported by vets stating there tests showed Vit D levels to be fine.

Its very expensive for a recall. No company is quick to do it esp a small co that a major recall could spell the end.


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## zehn (Sep 3, 2008)

sachi said:


> I used my 2 coupons and got the 6.6lbs bags of Evo Red Meat and Salmon/Herring. Just had to pay the tax - about $3 for $60 worth of dog food. I havent opened them yet, I know some people are still using it... We'll see how it goes. (IF I use them)


Wow, I guess I'm getting a steal - I just bought the largest bag of Salmon/herring they have available, maybe 30 lbs for $60.

We're probably going to move on to Orijen for the smaller dogs once this bag is gone and the take over is complete.


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## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> I think I'm going to get a couple of those coupons  How did you get two?


My coworker gave me hers. She got some from another coworker to try but her dogs didnt do well (runs)



zehn said:


> Wow, I guess I'm getting a steal - I just bought the largest bag of Salmon/herring they have available, maybe 30 lbs for $60.
> 
> We're probably going to move on to Orijen for the smaller dogs once this bag is gone and the take over is complete.


Everything cost more in Hawaii... Buying bigger bags is always cheaper, but when you have small dogs and a 6.6lb bag last about a month and a half you cant really buy bigger bags


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

jiml said:


> Blue buffalo also init denied there food could be the cause of the Vitamin D toxicity that was being reported by vets stating there tests showed Vit D levels to be fine.


The situation was a bit weird. Blue Buffalo did have their food tested several times in response to concerns about dogs eating it having high calcium levels and the food repeatedly tested normal for levels of vitamin D. 

Ultimately, what they are speculating is that a form of vitamin D that does not show up on currently available tests contaminated the machinery in the mill where the food is manufactured -- a different product containing that form of vitamin D had been produced on the same machinery immediately prior to the affected batches of Blue Buffalo. There currently is no available test for this particular form of vitamin D in dry dog food, so the theory can't be confirmed right now, but Blue Buffalo is working with a lab to try to develop a test.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

> I guess IMO I feel that where you spend your dollars is the only real voice we have these days.


Exactly why I stopped buying EVO when I discovered the buyout. My dogs did very well on it, and I trusted Natura. I sure as heck don't trust P&G, and wasn't going to take a wait-and-see attitude before switching.


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## sachi (Sep 20, 2010)

I broke down and let my dogs try the Evo Herring and Salmon last night. They kept sniffing at the bags since I got them. Everything seems fine so far. 

My real concern with the buyout is that P&G may not change the formula but they could change the source without letting anyone know. They could buy cheaper/lesser quality ingredients and still keep the formula the same. We'll see how it goes.


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## philovance (Jan 7, 2009)

sachi said:


> My real concern with the buyout is that P&G may not change the formula but they could change the source without letting anyone know. They could buy cheaper/lesser quality ingredients and still keep the formula the same.


I agree and this is why I find the obsession with ingredients to be no assurance *any* commercial food is of high quality. Even if the first four ingredients are meat proteins they are obviously going to be of lower quality than humans would consume or they would have ended up in the human food chain. While all things being equal I would rather not see corn as the first ingredient or pay for television ads, which leaves out Pedigree (as much as I love their ads), we are trusting that companies that manufacture their own food in the remote prairies of Canada are more "honest" and better intentioned than, for instance, Diamond.

As a result, it makes much more sense to me to rotate between products, forms and protein sources and keep a close eye on how our pets are doing. Trying to find one food that an animal can eat month in and month out seems hopeless and against common sense to me, especially when that food is a kibble.

As far as Natura is concerned what I think we can watch for, since we can't know whether ingredients have changed, is whether distribution expands beyond the specialty store chain and whether the lines are increasingly advertised and marketed. It seems given that P&G will watch its margins even more closely than a family owned business would, and if they need to build in costs for mass marketing and lower wholesale prices to chains, it is logical they will cheapen the product. This is certainly what happened over time to Iams. But I don't think this will happen overnight and as long as Innova canned is one of the better cat foods I can buy for the money I'll continue to feed it.


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## Kawgirl (Feb 1, 2009)

I am back to looking for a food for my itchy dog, and you guys have made Arcadia sound good, but is it made by Champion Pet Food? Isn't that one of the companies that had so many products recalled in the past?


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

Kawgirl said:


> I am back to looking for a food for my itchy dog, and you guys have made Arcadia sound good, but is it made by Champion Pet Food? Isn't that one of the companies that had so many products recalled in the past?


It's Acana and it is made by Champion foods but they have not had a food recall, far as I know. Diamond had a bunch of recalls not Champion


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## Michiyo-Fir (Jul 25, 2009)

I think you're taking about Acana. It is made by Champion pet foods and they've never had a dog food recall as far as I know. They've had one case of cat food recall in Australia but I think they're the best quality dry kibble one can get. I really trust the company being that they are Canadian and all proteins are locally sourced. Plus, the meat and fish they use have never been frozen before so they don't need preservatives to keep the meat fresh like most other companies do.


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