# panting dog? neglect!



## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

you heard it, folks. if you're in a store for less than 15 minutes on an 85 degree day and you leave your half-bald dog in the car with two windows down and a cup of water and she's panting, you're an abuser and you're going to have strangers write down your license plate and get a background check on you. clearly a panting dog is on death's doorstep and i should be ashamed of myself for letting my dog go on a ride (which she loves) and leaving her in the car for a few minutes while i get a couple things. also, every time she pants outside or in play i should instantly panic and bring her inside or stop her from playing because she is in distress because panting is a sign of distress and she is going to die.

apparently the lady is an "animal advocate". because attempting to get people's perfectly fine dogs taken away is obviously what's best for the dog.

:doh: like i would get it if she were in clear distress but the only POSSIBLE sign was panting. so i'm just like ???


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

I don't necessarily have a problem with people getting involved with dogs left in cars, especially in those kinds of temperatures. They have no idea how long you've been in the store, and if someone thought they could leave their dog in a car for an hour and no one called authorities it could end in tragedy. 

I think this has nothing to do with panting in the heat or from exercise, no one would call anyone because of that... But a dog (or child or anyone who can't let themselves out) left in a hot car without air running would raise red flags for me as well.


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## BedlingtonGirl (Jun 16, 2014)

This I don't understand. On another forum that I am on, we were talking about what we would do in reverse situations. Haha


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Eenypup said:


> I don't necessarily have a problem with people getting involved with dogs left in cars, especially in those kinds of temperatures. They have no idea how long you've been in the store, and if someone thought they could leave their dog in a car for an hour and no one called authorities it could end in tragedy.
> 
> I think this has nothing to do with panting in the heat or from exercise, no one would call anyone because of that... But a dog (or child or anyone who can't let themselves out) left in a hot car without air running would raise red flags for me as well.


I had the windows down far enough that she could get her head out lol... and probably squeeze her entire self out if she wanted to. the lady's entire sticking point was that she was panting. Like I totally get where she's coming from but she was extremely rude to me and had no reason to do so without looking at the situation objectively. Panting itself isn't a sign of distress and she was full of energy when I got back outside. I could see it if she were like laying on her side and not moving much or showing some other real sign of distress but she was sitting in the back window and watching attentively for me to come back.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Did the person know how long it had been? Were the windows down all the way, not just cracked? Was the water visible? Was the car in the sun? 

Personally, if the windows were only cracked, I'd go inside immediately and ask the manager to page the car's owner. Then I'd return outside and wait about 5, max 10 minutes (assuming I did not know how long the dog had already been in the car) before calling the cops. 

Here's some highlights of a study from Stanford University:
"In this observational study, temperature rise was measured continuously over a 60-minute period in a dark sedan on 16 different clear sunny days with ambient temperatures* ranging from 72 to 96°F.* On 2 of these days, additional measurements were made with the windows opened 1.5 inches."

"Regardless of the outside ambient temperature, the rate of temperature rise inside the vehicle was not significantly different. The average mean increase was 3.2°F per 5-minute interval, with 80% of the temperature rise occurring during the first 30 minutes. The final temperature of the vehicle depended on the starting ambient temperature, but even a*t the coolest ambient temperature, internal temperatures reached 117°F.*"

"Cracking windows open did* not decrease* the rate of temperature rise in the vehicle (closed: 3.4°F per 5 minutes; opened: 3.1°F per 5 minutes) or the final maximum internal temperature."

Look, I've run into a gas station to pee when I've had a dog in the car even on a hot day, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do. But I can't really blame anyone's concern either considering how FAST it really does heat up in a car.

If I have to go briefly inside, I park in the shade, put all the windows a few inches down (6-8 inches, not 2-3 inches and put the front windows down more where the dog isn't as easily reached but it increases the air flow) and alarm the car. Then I alert the gas station or fast food store clerk that I have a dog in the car and have parked in the shade and will be using the restroom as fast as humanely possible. Otherwise, I try to seek out places like public parks, pet stores, tractor supply etc that I can bring the dog into the store with me when I use the restroom.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

IF the person had a CLUE or had ever seen a dog with heat stroke, she would know that panting is good. It is how dogs cool themselves... A dog in a car and it is warm that is NOT panting is in trouble.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

The amount of dogs we had die here last summer because of this very thing was astounding. I can't blame that lady for contacting help. Plus 85 outside temperature is pretty warm... How was anyone supposed to know you'd be back in a minute or two?


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Shell-- like I said the windows were down far enough that she could get her head out and yes, water was visible. I assume you would actually be polite about it if you were to confront the owner, unlike this person. And the lady didn't contact help, she hunted me down in the store and confronted me (making my trip LONGER) to tell me how my dog was in horrible distress because she was panting.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Again, don't see the issue. She probably could have done without the attitude and dramatics but her concern was justified. I would probably have gone looking for the owner too.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> IF the person had a CLUE or had ever seen a dog with heat stroke, she would know that panting is good. It is how dogs cool themselves... A dog in a car and it is warm that is NOT panting is in trouble.


But how do people judge _when_ that transition might happen? It can take time for someone to respond or for a store manager to page the car's owner etc and if you don't know how long the dog has been in the car nor the overall health of the dog, I'd consider it pretty hard to know if the dog is going to go downhill quickly in the next few minutes. 

A very simple thing might be a large piece of paper with one's cell phone number to put in the window with like "I am only gone briefly but please call me immediately if you are concerned" 

If I travelled long distances with the dogs, I'd be looking for something like those metal grates that are used in cop cars for K9s so the windows could be opened all the way securely or I think there are ways to set the car up where it can run with the AC on and locked but cannot be put into gear even if someone busted the windows (probably depends on local law also about cars running unattended). A fan running on the battery might be a simple-ish option.



Kayota said:


> Shell-- like I said the windows were down far enough that she could get her head out and yes, water was visible. I assume you would actually be polite about it if you were to confront the owner, unlike this person. And the lady didn't contact help, she hunted me down in the store and confronted me (making my trip LONGER) to tell me how my dog was in horrible distress because she was panting.


When I started typing, you hadn't posted about how far the windows were down. 2 inches or so doesn't make any real difference in the final heat level so I can understand her concern if that was the case. 
If I confronted the owner, it would be expressing concern and my further response would be based on their demeanor and attitude. I wouldn't start off rude, but a response of "Thank you so much but I've only been here 5 minutes and she has water and I will be out in 1-2 more minutes" would get a totally different response than a huffy "Dog's fine" 

She shouldn't have started off rudely but aren't you glad there are people concerned enough to track you down just in case there was a problem? Hypothetically, you could have forgotten you had a dog with you (people forget their kids are in the car.....) or you could have had something happen while in the store that delayed you.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I would leave my car running if i could but it locks itself for some reason and then will not unlock.


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## Melle (Aug 9, 2013)

Shell said:


> But how do people judge _when_ that transition might happen? It can take time for someone to respond or for a store manager to page the car's owner etc and if you don't know how long the dog has been in the car nor the overall health of the dog, I'd consider it pretty hard to know if the dog is going to go downhill quickly in the next few minutes.


What I'm thinking. It's how they cool themselves, but it's their only way, without having cool water. I know even with the windows down I still get very hot, and we can sweat through our skin. Knowing that dogs can only pant to cool themselves, and that that process is slower than ours, I'd be more likely to take action than count on someone to return on time because you never know when a dog as an individual will overheat. Panting is a sign that the dog is already hot - at that point it's just the dog trying to manage it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kayota said:


> Shell-- like I said the windows were down far enough that she could get her head out and yes, water was visible. I assume you would actually be polite about it if you were to confront the owner, unlike this person. And the lady didn't contact help, she hunted me down in the store and confronted me (making my trip LONGER) to tell me how my dog was in horrible distress because she was panting.



What part of the country is this? 

We have five plus months of 90f plus degree days with lows only to 74f or so and 85 percent or more humidity.... Sometimes we have as high as 95 percent humidity...

If dogs are outside, they pant. And lots of folks have outside dogs.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> What part of the country is this?
> 
> We have five plus months of 90f plus degree days with lows only to 74f or so and 85 percent or more humidity.... Sometimes we have as high as 95 percent humidity...
> 
> If dogs are outside, they pant. And lots of folks have outside dogs.


Doesn't 90 or 95 degrees outside seem different than the potential of 120, 130+ degrees in a car though?

It was 91 today here and the dogs spent a few hours outside in the yard (me too) with a baby pool available and some shade if they wanted it. If I'd stepped in the house and left them for a short bit and someone started ranting to me that they were too hot because they were panting, I'd raise an eyebrow. 

But 85 degrees with an _unknown_ time in a car with a few inches of window open? I'd thank the person for their concern even if they expressed themselves rudely at first. Now, if they kept ranting, I'd start to get ticked off assuming that the car was in fact cool enough and dogs left only briefly but I just can't blame someone for getting worried.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

My boyfriend was literally just cleaning out his truck like 20 minutes ago. Here in Southern Ontario, the temperature is 27-29C (79-80-ish F). He had the doors closed with the windows cracked and was absolutely drenched in sweat and he had to get out after about 10 minutes because it was agonizing. 

Jus' sayin'... I don't think the lady was out of line coming to find you.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Shell said:


> Doesn't 90 or 95 degrees outside seem different than the potential of 120, 130+ degrees in a car though?
> 
> It was 91 today here and the dogs spent a few hours outside in the yard (me too) with a baby pool available and some shade if they wanted it. If I'd stepped in the house and left them for a short bit and someone started ranting to me that they were too hot because they were panting, I'd raise an eyebrow.
> 
> But 85 degrees with an _unknown_ time in a car with a few inches of window open? I'd thank the person for their concern even if they expressed themselves rudely at first. Now, if they kept ranting, I'd start to get ticked off assuming that the car was in fact cool enough and dogs left only briefly but I just can't blame someone for getting worried.


it wasn't a few inches, it was at least 5 or so. on each side. and melle, she had a cup of water.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I agree, nothing wrong with trying to find the owner but she didn't have to be rude.


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## Foresthund (Jul 17, 2013)

I got in trouble before for leaving my dog in a car for just two minutes in 70 degree weather,open windows and water while I had to go get someone and was not going to be longer than 4-5 minutes. They where going to report him for being in distress, He was just panting,but did not show other signs of overheating like a dry tongue or foaming at the mouth and still very energetic,so it was just the panting. This kind of thing does get frustrating and I do try to avoid leaving him in the car on any days over 70 degrees but things happen and a couple minutes won't kill a dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> Doesn't 90 or 95 degrees outside seem different than the potential of 120, 130+ degrees in a car though?
> 
> It was 91 today here and the dogs spent a few hours outside in the yard (me too) with a baby pool available and some shade if they wanted it. If I'd stepped in the house and left them for a short bit and someone started ranting to me that they were too hot because they were panting, I'd raise an eyebrow.
> 
> But 85 degrees with an _unknown_ time in a car with a few inches of window open? I'd thank the person for their concern even if they expressed themselves rudely at first. Now, if they kept ranting, I'd start to get ticked off assuming that the car was in fact cool enough and dogs left only briefly but I just can't blame someone for getting worried.


Not arguing that Shell... I am wondering where this woman things a dog panting is a problem.


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## Eenypup (Mar 21, 2014)

She wasn't correct in thinking panting was the problem, obviously. So clearly she isn't overly educated on heat stroke in dogs, but I still think finding the owner was the right call. I think the average person on the street doesn't exactly know what to look for when it comes to a dog having issues in the heat, but I'd rather be safe than sorry and am glad people are willing to step up and make sure the dog's okay.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Not arguing that Shell... I am wondering where this woman things a dog panting is a problem.


Gotcha. 

I do know that people here- the north part of the south or the south part of the midwest depending on how you look at it- think of summer heat in a very different way than a native Floridian. The news starts drilling the summer heat dangers into the minds here when it gets to the upper 80s, including about pets and children in cars which IS a dangerous problem, so when the first summer heat strikes, people are even more on-guard than usual if that makes sense. 

Yesterday was about 87-88 degrees and I took Eva for a long walk and saw maybe 3 other dogs and a few dozen people. I went to the same park at the same time with Chester the day before when it was about 78 degrees and saw a few dozen dogs and several hundred people.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i would have much preferred that she let the staff know than hunt me down and prolong my trip by harassing me about my dog.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It's a tough call. This article is about kids but I think he voices the internal debate pretty well: http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...adults_call_the_police_or_mind_their_own.html


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Kayota said:


> i would have much preferred that she let the staff know than hunt me down and prolong my trip by harassing me about my dog.


But then the staff would have to hunt you down instead anyway...


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Little Wise Owl said:


> But then the staff would have to hunt you down instead anyway...


One of my friends went to a store manager after seeing a dog left in a car on a very hot (90+) day. The store manager said they couldn't page the owner -- even just by the vehicle description without a reason why-- because it might "embarrass" the customer.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Shell said:


> One of my friends went to a store manager after seeing a dog left in a car on a very hot (90+) day. The store manager said they couldn't page the owner -- even just by the vehicle description without a reason why-- because it might "embarrass" the customer.


I guess it depends on the store. I've heard staff intercom customers about their dogs/cars before.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I guess it depends on the store. I've heard staff intercom customers about their dogs/cars before.


Of course, I was just commenting that sometimes trying to go to staff first doesn't work. Since the indifference of the manager ticked my friend royally, I can imagine that her ire would have been up even more if she'd ended up running into the dog's owner and thus might have been less than verbally eloquent.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> My boyfriend was literally just cleaning out his truck like 20 minutes ago. Here in Southern Ontario, the temperature is 27-29C (79-80-ish F). He had the doors closed with the windows cracked and was absolutely drenched in sweat and he had to get out after about 10 minutes because it was agonizing.
> 
> Jus' sayin'... I don't think the lady was out of line coming to find you.


I live in central Florida, High heat, high humidity. And my dogs are in my vehicle daily....

That being said... 
I have this....
A temp alarm that texts my phone if the temp goes up. I have it set for 92f
http://theanimalarm.com/product-details/
And this....
A 12 volt AC that is hard wired to the battery. It runs when the car is off. It is an evaporator system so it has to have an exhaust tube I had it custom installed ( they cut a hole under the drivers seat and vented out there... 
http://www.swampy.net/wb.html
These are not cheap. Plus you have to find a way to vent the hot air outflow. 

I also have a DC powered Fan.

And I had to beef up the electrical system in my vehicle. heavier gauge wire, upgraded alternator, and I run a duel cycle Marine battery (boat) that does both cranking and will not bleed down for continuous run. 

I can have the front windows have down and keep the back of the vehicle at 75 in 95 weather. 

I also have signs on the side windows telling people to stay back and that the vehicle is cooling.. they can hear it if they get close. 

But I have a lot of money in my system.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> Gotcha.
> 
> I do know that people here- the north part of the south or the south part of the midwest depending on how you look at it- think of summer heat in a very different way than a native Floridian. The news starts drilling the summer heat dangers into the minds here when it gets to the upper 80s, including about pets and children in cars which IS a dangerous problem, so when the first summer heat strikes, people are even more on-guard than usual if that makes sense.
> 
> Yesterday was about 87-88 degrees and I took Eva for a long walk and saw maybe 3 other dogs and a few dozen people. I went to the same park at the same time with Chester the day before when it was about 78 degrees and saw a few dozen dogs and several hundred people.


I have been all over the country... I know it gets hot in many places...

But LOL they don't issue heat warnings here unless it gets over like 95... Its Florida, its summer, its hot, that is a given..


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have been all over the country... I know it gets hot in many places...
> 
> But LOL they don't issue heat warnings here unless it gets over like 95... Its Florida, its summer, its hot, that is a given..


That's what I find so amusing. I'm from your area. I didn't own dogs as a kid but I rode horses all summer in 95, 100+ degree heat. Here? The news really does start panicking about the heat in the upper 80s. I will admit that the huge temperature swings make the first hot day seem worse here though. 

Your car set-up sounds GREAT. Well worth it for someone who has the dogs with them year-around in the vehicle.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

umm, is that safe leaving the windows open enough where her head can stick out and possibly getting her body out?
i don't think that's a "lol" point. i think the lady had the dog's best interest in mind.



Kayota said:


> I had the windows down far enough that she could get her head out lol... and probably squeeze her entire self out if she wanted to.
> 
> 
> 
> the lady's entire sticking point was that she was panting. Like I totally get where she's coming from but she was extremely rude to me and had no reason to do so without looking at the situation objectively. Panting itself isn't a sign of distress and she was full of energy when I got back outside. I could see it if she were like laying on her side and not moving much or showing some other real sign of distress but she was sitting in the back window and watching attentively for me to come back.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kayota said:


> I could see it if she were like laying on her side and not moving much or showing some other real sign of distress but she was sitting in the back window and watching attentively for me to come back.


I do think some people overdo it with the dogs in car thing. Having said that, just to play devil's advocate, by the time a dog is showing serious signs of distress they're in big big trouble. And panting is not panting is not panting, as dogs start to experience heat stress their panting takes on a different character than normal panting.

Heat stroke is an awful, awful way to die. On an 85 degree day, if I saw a dog panting in a car, I would at least take a second look. 

I pretty much just don't leave my dogs in the car on a hot day, but if I "have to" I leave the car and AC running, and put a sign in the window that says "I'm ok, AC is on! Mom is in *store* and will be right back! Thanks for checking on me!" It's a simple way to avoid this kind of problem.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

We recently had 6 dogs die locally when they were left in a dog walkers truck on a warm day (wasn't more than 20 degrees Celsius which is around 70 F). 

Since that happened I think more people are on guard about dogs left in vehicles. I think I would try to contact a vehicle owner if it was a hot day and the dog was in distress. Would rather annoy the owner a bit than leave the dog. We are lucky in some ways that it doesn't get hot here often.


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## VickytheRobot (May 24, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I do think some people overdo it with the dogs in car thing. Having said that, just to play devil's advocate, by the time a dog is showing serious signs of distress they're in big big trouble. And panting is not panting is not panting, as dogs start to experience heat stress their panting takes on a different character than normal panting.
> 
> Heat stroke is an awful, awful way to die. On an 85 degree day, if I saw a dog panting in a car, I would at least take a second look.
> 
> I pretty much just don't leave my dogs in the car on a hot day, but if I "have to" I leave the car and AC running, and put a sign in the window that says "I'm ok, AC is on! Mom is in *store* and will be right back! Thanks for checking on me!" It's a simple way to avoid this kind of problem.


I agree with this. I also do the car running with A/C on thing - I just separate the key from the keyless entry alarm button thingamajig and it works great. I've done both car running with A/C in Summer, and car running with a low heat in severe Winter. I think the lady probably had the dog's best interest in mind even if she could have done better with the confrontation. In Texas you hear about dogs dying in the car every year because someone left them in the heat; hell, you hear about it happening to kids also. :/


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yup, just slip the fob off, leave the key in the ignition, and I can still lock the car and get back in later.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

sassafras said:


> I do think some people overdo it with the dogs in car thing. Having said that, just to play devil's advocate, by the time a dog is showing serious signs of distress they're in big big trouble. And panting is not panting is not panting, as dogs start to experience heat stress their panting takes on a different character than normal panting.
> 
> Heat stroke is an awful, awful way to die. On an 85 degree day, if I saw a dog panting in a car, I would at least take a second look.
> 
> I pretty much just don't leave my dogs in the car on a hot day, but if I "have to" I leave the car and AC running, and put a sign in the window that says "I'm ok, AC is on! Mom is in *store* and will be right back! Thanks for checking on me!" It's a simple way to avoid this kind of problem.


85 is fairly hot for my neck of the woods...I personally wouldn't take the boys with me if I was going someplace like a store if it's above 80. With the crates in the car, I can leave my windows down and my sunroof open and they get plenty of air circulation. There are days where I will take them to work with me and the temps are under 85....but I have them crated and the entire car is opened up in a client's driveway. 

During the summer, we've had more than plenty dogs make the news here that have died in cars. People are a little more crazy about dogs in cars in hot weather....so I don't tempt fate on 80+ degree days at the grocery store. They guys stay home and in the AC.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

We have a "no idle" law in town so you can't leave your car running and your AC on or you get fined. I leave my dogs at home if it looks like it will get hot out but I have to take Kris with me the two or three times a week I go into the arena for Obedience practice. I had an airline crate in my Van but I just bought a wire crate for her. My windows are tinted so it does not get as hot as some vehicles and with her in a crate, I can leave my windows down. (Only the front windows open and two vent windows in the back). I still worry that it might get too hot for her when I have to leave her for a short time in the Van so I am really careful where I park. A person walking past would not even know there is a dog in the Van though.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Kyllobernese said:


> We have a "no idle" law in town so you can't leave your car running and your AC on or you get fined.


We have that same law here too actually...and that's the main reason why I don't leave my car running when run inside the store with the guys in it alone.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

doggiepop said:


> umm, is that safe leaving the windows open enough where her head can stick out and possibly getting her body out?
> i don't think that's a "lol" point. i think the lady had the dog's best interest in mind.


Yeah I am exaggerating a bit. But she can get her head out and I like it that way.

Sass, I've tried that with my keys but I have to have a spare key to get it open (clicker won't work if the car is running, no idea why) and I don't have one right now. Might be a good investment! Also she was panting normally when I got out to the car and she gave me a lick and her mouth was plenty moist.

I guess it just really bothers me because there's no way she could have known it was me (she wasn't there when I pulled up and I wasn't wearing anything dog or chihuahua related) so she had to be going around asking everyone if it was their car and then she wrote my license plate number down and threatened to run a background check?? it was all very dramatic.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

I can see both points of view. 
Btw., the tendency in Gainesville, FL (south, but a university town) is to break the car window and rescue the dog, so consider yourself lucky to get off with an encounter with a self-righteous and obnoxious person.
Lots of dogs are killed by being left in hot cars. I doubt there are meaningful statistics, but it does happen. Well-meaning people get nasty when they think a dog is in danger. They have no idea of circumstances . . . and may have just read some report of dogs killed in hot cars, or seen a poster, like the one in my vet's office, saying NEVER LEAVE YOUR DOG IN A HOT CAR . . . with data on temperature rise with direct sunshine. Leaving windows open helps, but a dog can still suffer heat stroke in a car with the windows open, with or without water.
I have largely stopped taking my dogs on errands in town because I'm afraid of getting my windows broken.


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## Kayla_Nicole (Dec 19, 2012)

I would much rather strangers confront the owner of the vehicle/dog or go into the store and report the issue rather than just ignore a dog in a car on a hot day. I don't care if she was panting or not panting. It's better safe than sorry. The lady had no idea how long you were planning to be inside the store. 

85 degrees is hot. The inside of a car on an 85 degree day is much, much hotter and uncomfortable, even with the windows cracked. It's not like it was 60 and the lady entirely overreacted. 

Dogs can suffer from heatstroke on a warm day outside in the open, period....let alone from being left in a hot car. 

I choose to not take the dogs with me on car rides unless they are going with us inside wherever we are going, or my fiance and I are going together and one of us can wait in the car with them. If they are with me and I need to stop at the grocery store or whatever, I drop them off at home first and make another trip myself. I would not make the decision to go somewhere on an 85 degree day and take my dogs, knowing that they would be left in the non-running car alone. That's just my opinion.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I live in a wonderful area where we can have 50+ days of 100+ F . 85 is still warm though. imo too warm for the car unless you've got the whole thing open. We do crate in the car for nosework sometimes but I open my whole back hatch and have fans and cooling pads. 

Sun is actually more important in my experience about whether a car is hot or not. I do not leave my dogs in cars on sunny days if it's over around 65F. Even upper 60s can get a car hot pretty quick. Now on cold days or rainy days I leave my dogs in my car all the time. My dogs have spent most of a day in the car with me running errands before. They love to go so I take them when I can.

I think there are people who over-react. I've heard people getting yelled at when it's 50 out and cloudy- that's ridiculous. But 85? I think the lady wasn't wrong to come looking for you.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

I never bring Bella for a ride in the car (no matter how much she loves it) if it is over 70F and sunny and there is the slightest chance she may be in the car alone for over 5 mins. I just don't do it. She can stay home. Period. 

I came seriously close to having to react to a German shepherd that was locked in a dark colored car, in the middle of the supermarket parking lot, 90F (in the shade), in direct sun. The windows were cracked *just* enough for him to stick his nose out. I hung around for a few minutes to see if the owner came right out. I went inside (because *I* was sweating to death being outside) and started my shopping but looked out the windows every minute or two to see if the truck was still there. After another 5 minutes, I went to the desk and mentioned that something may need to be done soon. They sent someone out to check on the dog and the owner came out as the clerk was headed back in. I don't know what was said, but the guy just nodded his head and left. 

Another few minutes and the dog may have had mush for brains.


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## Sarah~ (Oct 12, 2013)

I've lived in places that got to 110+ in the hottest days of summer, I'm still sweating at 85 though, and my truck is awful when it's been sitting in that kind of heat! I won't even leave Xena, who has very thin fur and none from the bottom of her chin to underneath her tail, in the truck.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> I would much rather strangers confront the owner of the vehicle/dog or go into the store and report the issue rather than just ignore a dog in a car on a hot day. I don't care if she was panting or not panting. It's better safe than sorry. The lady had no idea how long you were planning to be inside the store.
> 
> 85 degrees is hot. The inside of a car on an 85 degree day is much, much hotter and uncomfortable, even with the windows cracked. It's not like it was 60 and the lady entirely overreacted.
> 
> ...


Wholly agree with everything said here. I never leave Sydney in the car even if it's 75 degrees, and even if it's 'just a few minutes'. We take Syd with us at times, but it's either me taking her with me to go through a drive-thru restaurant (Because she loves car rides), or my husband is with me and one of us will stay in the car if it's a quick run to the store while we're on the way to the park or something. It's really better safe than sorry to just avoid it all together. The lady didn't know, and honestly? I'd just be glad SOMEONE took notice and was concerned. Better than someone just passing by without a care in the world.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

I've sat in my own car for 15 minutes or less with lower temps and I've been uncomfortably hot and ended up having to turn the engine back on to run the a/c. Even with the windows open, cars heat up really fast! Unless it's a particularly breezy day, cooler air doesn't move into the car well when the car isn't moving. 85 is really hot! This woman had no idea when you'd be back out to your car. I'd count yourself lucky that she didn't break your window and take your dog out! 

When it's under 70, I'll leave the dog in the car for under 10 minutes if I have to run in somewhere, but only if that place is directly en route to or from where I'm bringing the dog (e.g. we drive past the library to go to the park; trader joes is a little bit down from the pet store). Once it's hotter than that... I'll make a second trip. I'd never deliberately bring him with me to just sit in the car while I run errands.


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## Kathyy (Jun 15, 2008)

It is against the law here to leave a dog in a car if it is too hot or too cold. Other states have similar laws.
http://www.animallaw.info/articles/State%20Tables/tbusdogshotcars.htm

If it is breezy and I can park in the shade dogs are fine up to 75*F or so but I don't make a rule of it. I've crated in the car at agility trials where it was 90*F but all windows and hatch are wide open, shade cloth over sunny windows and they would be just as hot outside as in. Of course leaving a person in the car with the dog makes it safe enough, if the dogsitter gets uncomfortable dog is leashed up and outside in the shade!


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

This is semi-amusing because I literally just left Merlin in the car for ~10 minutes whilst I stopped at Hobby Lobby. I didn't intend to stop there but it was on the way to the pet store and I needed a few things. When I have the inclination to leave Merlin in the car, the doors are unlocked and the key is in the ignition, AC on. Prolly kind of dangerous considering someone could steal the car but it's not automatic so no clicker. I will be investing in a secondary key soon so as I can lock the car. But until then, if you see Merlin in the car and the car is running with the doors unlocked, he is ok. And please don't steal my car. *college student monetary problems* Lol.

My advice in this situation is just to be "thankful" for the crazy lady. She was trying to do her best by your dog. She did go over the top but I would rather that someone come find me if they thought Mer was in a bad way than to just leave him.


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

85 for 15 minutes with a cup of water, no air conditioning, and the windows cracked.
Even if she could get her head out, that is not going to allow for airflow at a standstill, and I bet that car was beyond hot.

I've got the humane society on my person when I'm out. If I see a dog locked in a car without the air running, owner has 5 minutes to come back before I call them. And then I'm going in and having the driver paged. People can say what they like about that, but I don't see a reason for a dog coming on errands if it's not to include the dog. Leave the dog home or make sure they're not locked in a hot car. I do think that's worth someone getting in trouble. 

This lady couldn't have known how long you left her in the car, and maybe she freaked out too much, but it's better than someone walking by and ignoring it. That's how dogs and kids die sickening deaths. 

So far this year, the only dog I have seen sitting in a car alone had windows down and the air running.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

Kayla_Nicole said:


> I would much rather strangers confront the owner of the vehicle/dog or go into the store and report the issue rather than just ignore a dog in a car on a hot day. I don't care if she was panting or not panting. It's better safe than sorry. The lady had no idea how long you were planning to be inside the store.
> 
> 85 degrees is hot. The inside of a car on an 85 degree day is much, much hotter and uncomfortable, even with the windows cracked. It's not like it was 60 and the lady entirely overreacted.
> 
> ...


I am seconding/thirding this. If the dogs are out with me it is because I wanted to take them out somewhere. If I have to stop somewhere they aren't allowed in I either take them home first or some one runs in while I sit in the car with the dogs. If it is too hot for me (and I tolerate heat pretty well) it is too hot for my dogs. We can get out and walk or leave the AC running. Hubby may run a quick errand into the grocery store while the kids, dogs and I sit in the car so he can grab snacks, water or whatever for a hike or he may run into the gas station mini-mart for similar but we never plan anything longer when the dogs are with us. Everything else can be done when they are left home. 

I live somewhere that it gets super hot. We typically get a full month of 100+ each summer. There are signs up in every single vets office about how fast the temperature in a car rises and why it is not safe to leave your dog in the car on a warm day. Every single year there are news stories of children dying in hot cars (the news doesn't cover dogs because so many children die). It just isn't worth it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I found this interesting:


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Yup, just slip the fob off, leave the key in the ignition, and I can still lock the car and get back in later.


Must be nice to have keyless entry. Or electric locks. 

Surely it is better for someone to keep an eye on your dog to make sure they're okay than for an owner to come back from 5 minutes of picking something up that ended up being closer to 20 or 30 minutes to find their dog in dire straits. 

I'll admit, Snowball has been left in the car on occasion, but usually on mild days in the winter when the temps are plus/minus 10 degrees from freezing (FYI: "winter" here is usually October to April). But mostly... I get around this problem by not leaving the dog in the car on hot or sunny days between May and October, and especially during mid-day when the sun is hottest.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

gingerkid said:


> Must be nice to have keyless entry. Or electric locks.


Try two regular keys. Test that in your own driveway with the windows down first to make sure the car doesn't do some stupid lock-up!!! The downside? If someone smashes the window, they can easily drive off with both dog and car 

I know it exists but I have no idea what it costs or what cars it is available on, but there is a way to have the engine running with A/C or heat on and NOT being able to put the car in drive without the key. That's the only way I'd leave the engine running unattended around here. 

Last week when it was in the upper 60s was the last time for the season that Chester got to wait in the car for a few minutes for me to stop in a store on the way back from a walk (barring emergencies with all possible precautions taken). Even then, it was a neighborhood store where I can see him from inside.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Shell said:


> Try two regular keys. Test that in your own driveway with the windows down first to make sure the car doesn't do some stupid lock-up!!! The downside? If someone smashes the window, they can easily drive off with both dog and car
> 
> I know it exists but I have no idea what it costs or what cars it is available on, but there is a way to have the engine running with A/C or heat on and NOT being able to put the car in drive without the key. That's the only way I'd leave the engine running unattended around here.


Unfortunately most of the time I'm out, I don't have two car keys on me (I only have two - one stays with husband in case of emergency, since I've been known to lock the keys in the trunk), and in situations where I have stopped with Snowball in the car, it hasn't been a planned excursion. Planned excursions are either with both of us so one of us can stay in the car, or Snowball gets dropped off at home before we do other errands. Actually, I wonder if keyless entry is partly responsible for the increase in dogs being left in cars that some news outlets are talking about.

In hubby's Hyundai Elantra though, it's less of an issue - his car has the exact feature that you're describing; on his car its part of the remote start system.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I have an autostart so if I have to leave a dog in the car I just turn on the AC (or the heat, in season), turn off the car, take my key with me, and turn it over again with the autostart. The engine runs but it can't be driven without the key in the ignition. 

The woman described in the OP sounds seriously lacking in social skills but IMO her concern about the dog was legit; 85 is too hot, cracked windows or no.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

If you don't have a fob, then get another key made. Surely it's not that challenging to keep a second key on your keychain with the first one?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

In Florida you will get a big ticket for leaving a car unattended running. Even Locked.

Hence my setup with the 12 volt AC system and the temp alarm.

By the way I have a temp alarm in my house as well. If I leave the house at 7:30 in the morning in June, July or August... And say my AC breaks down at 8 am... By 1 my house could be 90 plus degrees inside..by four it would be hotter inside than outside. With NO air movement. 


And for those that said they never take their dogs in the car when it is above 80-85 there are places in the country that you would not be taking your dog anywhere except for 2 or three months a year. Some years maybe not at all. We have grilled steaks in shorts on New years day in 85 degree weather. 

And those that put the safe figure in the 70's, you might have a few days a year.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Honestly I very rarely feel the need to bring the dogs in the car somewhere that they aren't joining me and would be left. That is, if I'm taking them in the car, we are going to do something together, not for them to wait in the car while I do something without them. Usually it's a matter of convenience - eg I'm coming home from the dog park or scootering when it is much more convenient to stop somewhere instead of going home first and coming back.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

And keep in mind we have dog events all year round. People are hauling dogs all over the place all summer down here... There are ways to safely do it. 

In the far north people have to make preparations and adjustments for cold weather. In the South it is the opposite.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Honestly I very rarely feel the need to bring the dogs in the car somewhere that they aren't joining me and would be left. That is, if I'm taking them in the car, we are going to do something together, not for them to wait in the car while I do something without them. Usually it's a matter of convenience - eg I'm coming home from the dog park or scootering when it is much more convenient to stop somewhere instead of going home first and coming back.


What happens if you are driving long distance? you have to stop... Use the facilities, eat, etc.. 
I have done dog events that are 500 miles plus away from home in the middle of the summer. 

I have had a bunch of dogs that rode ever 50 thousand miles in a car over their lives. Heck I bet Merlin is pushing 100 thousand...


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Sure there are ways to safely do it, but a lot of people don't do it safely and a lot of dogs in other parts of the country aren't acclimated to the heat like dogs in your state are. On an 85 degree day with the windows rolled down slightly, I would look twice at a panting dog in a car in a parking lot and probably try to find the owner. 

We have events all year round, too. Sometimes indoors, sometimes outdoors. And I wouldn't leave a dog alone in the car on a really cold winter day, either.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> And keep in mind we have dog events all year round. People are hauling dogs all over the place all summer down here... There are ways to safely do it.
> 
> In the far north people have to make preparations and adjustments for cold weather. In the South it is the opposite.


The OP isn't in the South. 

Even with ways to safely do it, I wouldn't expect the non-dog owning or even the casual dog owning public to understand when it is safe when it is 85+ degrees out based on the amount of air into a car or such. 

Anything "extreme" for that location is reasonable to make a minor issue of a least -- as in, contacting the owner of the car/dog. 

The past 6ish months have meant a nearly 100 degree weather swing here not including wind chill or "feels like" temps. Minus 2 to 93 degrees which was today's high. I would be far more comfortable leaving a dog in a car for 10 minutes when it is 10 degrees outside than when it is 85 degrees outside and I think that's what the general public thinks in my area at least and so that's the type of thing that would get a response or complaint.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Meh, cold isn't really a problem except with little puppies or a hairless dog. The heat stays in the car a lot longer than the AC stays in during summer. Plus, oh, dogs have fur coats and all . I have left my dogs in the car in the winter but I won't do it in the summer at all. Toby starts panting like an old man if he gets even a little hot. OK, he is an old man but he did it when he was younger too.

I love it that some places give you a ticket for keeping your car running. They should do that here. . .all the old guys leave their trucks running when they go into the gas station for coffee. They'd make a fortune in ticket revenue, LOL.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> What happens if you are driving long distance? you have to stop... Use the facilities, eat, etc..
> I have done dog events that are 500 miles plus away from home in the middle of the summer.
> 
> I have had a bunch of dogs that rode ever 50 thousand miles in a car over their lives. Heck I bet Merlin is pushing 100 thousand...


Personally I don't drive long distances with the dog solo if the temps dictate he couldn't be in the car while I run in to use a bathroom. That way, someone can walk the dog around while the other person uses the bathroom, then switch.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Yea I'm in agreeance here.. concerns were justified, I'd probably have looked for the owner too and might have even come off as rude or snarky unintentionally... I don't see anything wrong with being cautious.


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## doggiepop (Feb 27, 2014)

a dog left unattended in a car with the windows down far enough where they can stick there head outside
isn't the safest thing for the dog. i taught my dog to lay down atuomatically when i exit the car. i leave
the back windows down to the point he can't get his head out of the window. i leave the front widows down
a little more. our car has a sun roof that we can open. 




Kayota said:


> Yeah I am exaggerating a bit. But she can get her head out and I like it that way.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> What happens if you are driving long distance? you have to stop... Use the facilities, eat, etc..
> I have done dog events that are 500 miles plus away from home in the middle of the summer.
> 
> I have had a bunch of dogs that rode ever 50 thousand miles in a car over their lives. Heck I bet Merlin is pushing 100 thousand...


I lived with my dog in a car for over a year. I very very rarely left him in the vehicle and never if it was above 70 degrees outside. First he would have eaten the car (he sometimes chewed on parts when we slept in the car at night in rest stops) and I worried about his safety. If I needed to eat I stopped places I could get food with him, restaurants with patios, drive thrus, but mostly I ate what food I brought with me or waited till we were at our camp to eat. It is expensive to eat on the road and Rennies don't have a lot of money, cheaper to buy food and cook it yourself at camp. At camp he could stay with a friend while I went to buy food or I could send some one to buy what I needed, sometimes we ran in groups and he could stay in the car with some one but honestly I didn't trust him with very many people. Aside from winter when there are no fairs and you have to find a stable place to live for a couple of months Mali and I were on the road. We traveled around TX, Georgia, Oklahoma and Louisiana through spring, summer and fall. Heat, wet, storms, cold, didn't really matter for camping or traveling but I didn't leave him in the car alone. 

I live in TX, it is hot here at least half of the year and sometimes weird months of the year. It certainly isn't that I don't take my dogs out with me in the car when it is hot. It has been over 90 already and I just took Freyja out Sunday for a 1hour round trip to an outdoor hockey rink to watch hubby practice derby on fathers day. I will probably take her out again later in the week for a trip to the pet store, we need cat food. I just don't leave them in the car when we go.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> What happens if you are driving long distance? you have to stop... Use the facilities, eat, etc..
> I have done dog events that are 500 miles plus away from home in the middle of the summer.


Usually if I'm driving that far on a road trip with the dogs, either my husband is with me and we can tag team or I'm going farther up north and temperatures are usually cooler enough to have to worry about it... but if not I just don't make long stops when I have the dogs with me. I only stop for gas where I can pay at the pump, if I stop at a rest stop I leave the car running with the AC on if it's too hot, and I really don't stop for meals. Drive through or car food.


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## Rootin'Rigby (Dec 21, 2013)

That's why I hate this weather. We travel to see our parents a lot (90 min away) and we take Rigby with us. And it's hard to leave him in the car now if we make any stops. Last weekend we stopped at Arbys to have lunch, and we had to leave him in the car. It was about 65 and sunny, but we parked in the shade, and left the windows down a little. I was so paranoid, I checked on him a few times while we were in there. But, whenever I went out there he was just sitting there looking around, not even panting. He didn't seem distressed at all, so I knew he was ok. But, I would never leave him in the car, in full sun, or with it hotter than that. It just scares me too much. 

At 85, I'd be way too paranoid, because it's even hotter in the car.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Sure there are ways to safely do it, but a lot of people don't do it safely and a lot of dogs in other parts of the country aren't acclimated to the heat like dogs in your state are. On an 85 degree day with the windows rolled down slightly, I would look twice at a panting dog in a car in a parking lot and probably try to find the owner.
> 
> We have events all year round, too. Sometimes indoors, sometimes outdoors. And I wouldn't leave a dog alone in the car on a really cold winter day, either.



I do not disagree.. Dogs die down here.... Just saying it can be done. 

And when I travel with dogs, I do I alter things a bit.. I combine stops, if I stop in a restaurant I get a table where I can see the vehicle etc.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I don't take the dogs with me over 80 degrees if I have to leave them in a locked car like the grocery store, Target, and places where I have to park on the street versus a driveway/small parking lot where I can see my car. I have to take Lars to his chiro tomorrow and it's supposed to be 90 here. I'll park the car in the shade and open up all of the windows and sun roof because O will go along for the ride. Lars and O have been dragged to classes and trials in the dead of summer....but they come in the building with me or they are crated in the car with shade cloths, fans, water, and my car wide open. 

If it's over 90 degrees...they stay home during the day. If I want to take them for a ride with errands...I'll just wait until the sun goes down and cools off.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I actually snapped this earlier today for this thread....here's the set up of my car where I leave the dogs. This was at Staples when I had to get copies of plans made and it was 70 and overcast. So...the front windows are cracked, the back windows are open and the sun roof is open. The dogs are crated and the doors are locked. You can't reach the unlock button from the back windows...and not to mention Ocean would DEFCON 1 if anyone he didn't know got that close to him and the car. They rode with me until about 1:30 and by that point I was done with meetings and plant shopping and it was sunny and 80 or so outside. 

If you want to take your dogs with you...think about getting a crate so you can leave the windows down, keep them cool, and people will probably leave you alone.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> If it's over 90 degrees...they stay home during the day. If I want to take them for a ride with errands...I'll just wait until the sun goes down and cools off.


That can be seven months here......Some years 8......


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> View attachment 156401
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to take your dogs with you...think about getting a crate so you can leave the windows down, keep them cool, and people will probably leave you alone.


I always crate my dogs in the vehicle.. And if I leave a dog in the car... I I put a padlock I keep on the crate..... Not so much because I am worred about someone stealing the dog. But for the protection of a do gooder that tries to get the dog out..A stranger tires to get Merlin out, he will hurt them... My vehicle= he WILL defend it.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

We New Englanders burst into flames in temps above 90. I have zero desire to live anywhere south of the mid Atlantic states.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I always crate my dogs in the vehicle.. And if I leave a dog in the car... I I put a padlock I keep on the crate..... Not so much because I am worred about someone stealing the dog. But for the protection of a do gooder that tries to get the dog out..A stranger tires to get Merlin out, he will hurt them... My vehicle= he WILL defend it.


God help anyone who tries to remove O from my car. It would take a prison extraction team to remove him without me or Mr. Boats there.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> We New Englanders burst into flames in temps above 90. I have zero desire to live anywhere south of the mid Atlantic states.



LOL dogs get conditioned to southern living just like people do.. We get TONS and TONs of people from the north down her in the winter... Sometimes it is warm... But it is NICE to us compared to summer. The Northern dogs are hot and ours are like Woo Hoo its Cool...


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

LOL! No joke...if it gets above 90 with any humidity here...the weather guys and health department freak. You shouldn't be outside, seek out cooling centers, check on the elderly. We're all going to die of heat stroke! The state offices close to help prevent brown out. 90 degrees up here? People act like we're living on the face of the sun or something. LOL


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## workerant (Feb 28, 2011)

A spare key for my car is like $80 because there's a computer chip in it. However, my local dealer was able to cut me a chipless "stupid" key that won't start the car but does lock the doors. When I have to go in somewhere, I leave the car (and air conditioner) running and lock the car with my stupid key.

I still half-expect to find my windows broken out and dogs "rescued" by some do-gooder who didn't realize the car and AC were still running. :suspicious:


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## cma48 (Mar 30, 2014)

I think as long you prepare well it is fine to have your dog in the car for a short period of time. E.g. willing to leave the a.c. on., have a cooling pad, fan, etc. The other day was the first time that I had left Odin in the car alone in hot weather. I had never before left him in the car alone to run inside and buy something. But the other day when Odin and I reached my car from our hike I was feeling light headed and tingly. This is a sensation I get before I experience a seizure. Odin drank all of his water so I couldn't even take some of his; I would be willing to even drink the water out of his bowl if it meant not getting a seizure. I put him in his crate, slowly drove to the nearest store (a Giant Food Store). I parked the car under shade, which happened to be on the other side of the parking lot. I drive a jalopy (a 91 honda civic) with no working a.c. so I rolled all the windows down, opened the back hatch, and left Odin securely in his crate. As I was walking I couldn't feel my feet touching the ground. It is a really strange feeling to explain but I knew I was going to get a seizure quick if I didn't get water and cool down. As soon as I got to the store I opened a gallon of water drank some and lay myself down on the cool tile. I must have looked really strange. Then I paid. I must have been there for 15 minutes. The whole time I was worried about Odin. After that experience I decided to be more prepared. I'm looking into buying fans and cooling pad. I'm also bringing extra water for both Odin and I.

That woman might have come off strong but honestly I would just be happy that a total stranger cared enough for my dog to go to the extent that she went to. If I had, had a seizure in the store it would have taken 30 or so minutes to come around; to get to the point where I can stand and walk on my own. If it were to happen, God forbid, I would hope that someone acted in the same manner that she did. It is better to err on the side of caution.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> LOL! No joke...if it gets above 90 with any humidity here...the weather guys and health department freak. You shouldn't be outside, seek out cooling centers, check on the elderly. We're all going to die of heat stroke! The state offices close to help prevent brown out. 90 degrees up here? People act like we're living on the face of the sun or something. LOL


I do not think they put any heat warnings out here unless the heat index goes over 110.

When it is 90 we are happy it is not 95,


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I love it that some places give you a ticket for keeping your car running. They should do that here. . .all the old guys leave their trucks running when they go into the gas station for coffee. They'd make a fortune in ticket revenue, LOL.


I actually thought it was in most states. I am not sure if you leave your vehicle unattended running your insurance will cover it. 

And here is my problem or concern with leaving a car running. I have a window punch on my key ring. I can be in a car, any car, faster than you can get in with the key.... If the car is running, it is ready to go.... Get in and drive off. 

Well my dogs are in a crate in my vehicle for safety. They can drive away with my car... And my dog.. Frankly I would rather lose my vehicle than my dogs. 

And ANYONE can get their hands on a window punch. 

That being said... The reality is.. In this County it is illegal to leave your dog in your car. Civil fine. I still do it. It is also a county ordinance that your dogs registration tag must be worn on their collar. Actually I believe that is state wide. I do not do that either. I have my dog's tags on my keys, and copies of their documents in my vehicle and copies in my phone. 

I got hassled a bit by the tag thing once by a Florida Department of Agriculture Officer of all people. 
But I have never been cited or challenged on it. If I am I will be polite, sign the ticket and plan to challenge it in court by documenting what I do in regards to my dogs tags and or in my vehicle. I will PROBABLY lose.... But I will still make my point...


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I live in NH. It can get hot & humid up here. I've gone to stores when it's 85 & humid and seen dogs in cars. I'm sorry but that's too darn hot. Windows down a bit do nothing but let the heat in. I've sat in my car and timed one dog in a car for 15 min. Fog was ok, not great and an officer I know pulled in. By the time he went in to get person, 20 min had gone by. The owner finally comes out, saying "I was only in there for five minutes". For me, therein lies the problem. People guesstimate the time & they're wrong.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I do not think they put any heat warnings out here unless the heat index goes over 110.
> 
> When it is 90 we are happy it is not 95,


That is so odd because we get heat advisory warnings as soon as soon as the heat index tops 100 despite our real temps being 100+ for more than a month straight each summer. Part of it may have to do with air quality, at about 85-90 we start getting air quality warnings. Makes you wonder about all of the dogs stuck outside all day every day.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea I think it's probably illegal to run the car unattended here, too, but I still do it. Oh well if I get a ticket, and I'm rarely away from the car for more than 5-10 minutes anyway. 

Jesus if they enforced that here no one could ever go anywhere in the winter, you can't just get in your car, start it and drive off when it's COLD cold. Everybody leaves the car running to warm up in the driveway.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> Yea I think it's probably illegal to run the car unattended here, too, but I still do it. Oh well if I get a ticket, and I'm rarely away from the car for more than 5-10 minutes anyway.
> 
> Jesus if they enforced that here no one could ever go anywhere in the winter, you can't just get in your car, start it and drive off when it's COLD cold. Everybody leaves the car running to warm up in the driveway.


They do not enforce it here. But car theft is HUGE here... Except for the panhandle it is HARD to get a hundred miles from a major seaport. Ever seen Gone in Sixty Seconds? A bit exaggerated but that does happen and we have three MAJOR Seaports in Florida. The amount of freight that goes in and out of Tampa, Miami and Jacksonville is staggering. 

Why do you think I have a window punch......


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

Vancouver is an "idle free city." Technically you are not supposed to let the car idle more than 3 minutes in a 1 hour period. No idling in parking lots, pick up zones, no leaving the car running while you pop into the shop or to let it warm up on a cold day etc. We don't even have drive-throughs here because of this law. Pretty hard to police this sort of thing though, so I doubt many tickets are given for it.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

We have a police scanner and around 7pm where it was still well above 80 here...a call comes through on the police frequencies on just this stuff we're talking about here. It was a restaurant and there was a report of a dog in a car with the windows up. This is our first summer with the scanner and I'm sure we're going to hear many, many more. 


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

I'm all for people coming to the rescue of dogs left in cars who GENUINELY are in distress and suffering from heat stroke, but yeah, I agree, SO MANY PEOPLE OVER REACT and cause problems where there are none. I've had it happen to me a few times, and it really grates at my nerves. In all situations, it was 65 out with a breeze, windows were opened, dogs had water, and were COMPLETELY calm and quiet. Next thing I know, there's a cop car rolling up, only to have the cop roll their eyes and laugh. Because there was never a problem to begin with? Huh, imagine that.

Help a dog if they really need it, but don't waste my time or a cop's time just because you want to feel like a hero. You're not, you're just annoying.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Gally said:


> Vancouver is an "idle free city." Technically you are not supposed to let the car idle more than 3 minutes in a 1 hour period. No idling in parking lots, pick up zones, no leaving the car running while you pop into the shop or to let it warm up on a cold day etc. We don't even have drive-throughs here because of this law. Pretty hard to police this sort of thing though, so I doubt many tickets are given for it.


If you have a farm or commercial vehicle over 6K pounds you can idle unattended here... That comes from before all the computer control diesel engines, it wasted more fuel to turn one off and re start it than it did to leave it idling...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RCloud said:


> I'm all for people coming to the rescue of dogs left in cars who GENUINELY are in distress and suffering from heat stroke, but yeah, I agree, SO MANY PEOPLE OVER REACT and cause problems where there are none.
> 
> .


THIS!!!!!!

I would bust a window in a heartbeat to get a dog out. And if I have my jeep, which I most often drive I have some pretty extensive first aid equipment and water with me. I have a bag full of chemical cool packs. 

But I am not going to over react.. 

And many people do..


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> THIS!!!!!!
> 
> I would bust a window in a heartbeat to get a dog out. And if I have my jeep, which I most often drive I have some pretty extensive first aid equipment and water with me. I have a bag full of chemical cool packs.
> 
> ...


I figure that if I was to bust a window for a dog, I'd bust the windshield since most car insurance policies have zero-deductible windshield replacement while a door window could cost the owner several hundred bucks.

I don't think however that tracking down the car owner in a store reaches the level of over-reacting. If the weather is decent and there is no real cause for concern, at least speaking to the owner of the dog isn't the same as using up first responder resources. Calling the cops and making an issue of things at 65 degrees like RCloud experienced is IMO quite different from speaking with the dog owner sans cops/officials when it is 85 degrees.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Shell said:


> I don't think however that tracking down the car owner in a store reaches the level of over-reacting. If the weather is decent and there is no real cause for concern, at least speaking to the owner of the dog isn't the same as using up first responder resources. Calling the cops and making an issue of things at 65 degrees like RCloud experienced is IMO quite different from speaking with the dog owner sans cops/officials when it is 85 degrees.


Right. Let's not overreact to someone who's not overreacting.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> I figure that if I was to bust a window for a dog, I'd bust the windshield since most car insurance policies have zero-deductible windshield replacement while a door window could cost the owner several hundred bucks.
> 
> I don't think however that tracking down the car owner in a store reaches the level of over-reacting. If the weather is decent and there is no real cause for concern, at least speaking to the owner of the dog isn't the same as using up first responder resources. Calling the cops and making an issue of things at 65 degrees like RCloud experienced is IMO quite different from speaking with the dog owner sans cops/officials when it is 85 degrees.



FYI.... Going in through the windshield is difficult. You can hit them with hammers, tire irons , baseball bats, etc. You will make holes in the windshield but they will not shatter. You could hit baseballs at it and you would have a bunch of baseball size holes. But the window will largely stay in tact. They are designed that way. You could easily spend 20 minutes plus trying to get the windshield to shatter. 

Best bet by FAR is to go through a door window. they will shatter more easily... But can still be surprisingly hard to break. You have to REALLY WHACK it HARD!. Which is why I have a window punch. In the early 90's I got a woman and a toddler out of a car that had been hit, was smoking and was leaking gas. Woman was out of it, Toddler in a baby seat. Adrenaline took over and I took out the passenger window with my hand and wore a cast for 8 weeks because of it. Hence now I keep a window punt on my key ring. A window punch is not a bad idea for anyone. It might get you out of your own car. Most police and fire people carry then. Check your local laws though. It would not surprise me if they are considered theft tools in some locations. With a window punch, it takes littler more effort than sticking a key in a lock. and the glass falls straight down.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

You're allowed to idle here for 5 minutes I think, but it's really not enforced at all. I remote start my car and then lock it, so even if somebody were to get in and try to take it out of park it would just shut the engine off.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

RCloud said:


> I'm all for people coming to the rescue of dogs left in cars who GENUINELY are in distress and suffering from heat stroke, but yeah, I agree, SO MANY PEOPLE OVER REACT and cause problems where there are none. I've had it happen to me a few times, and it really grates at my nerves. In all situations, it was 65 out with a breeze, windows were opened, dogs had water, and were COMPLETELY calm and quiet. Next thing I know, there's a cop car rolling up, only to have the cop roll their eyes and laugh. Because there was never a problem to begin with? Huh, imagine that.
> 
> Help a dog if they really need it, but don't waste my time or a cop's time just because you want to feel like a hero. You're not, you're just annoying.


Roxie was lying down in the back window watching for me as she always does.. nothing out of the ordinary. 85 really isn't bad here. i consider that nice day. And there was a light breeze and she could get her head out. To me 85 Really isn't a big deal aat all... and Roxie handles heat well.


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## JazzyTheSiberian (Feb 4, 2013)

BedlingtonGirl said:


> This I don't understand. On another forum that I am on, we were talking about what we would do in reverse situations. Haha


I think I know what thread your talking about.



Kayota said:


> Roxie was lying down in the back window watching for me as she always does.. nothing out of the ordinary. 85 really isn't bad here. i consider that nice day. And there was a light breeze and she could get her head out. To me 85 Really isn't a big deal aat all... and Roxie handles heat well.


While that might not seem that warm to you, it is for a dog in car. As said as before in this thread, 85 is too hot,& a car can climb in the triple digits in matter of a few minutes. People don't know how your dog has been in the car, if your dog is overheating. 

They wanted someone to be aware that your dog is locked in hot car, because it could potentially kill the dog. They are just worried about the well-being of the dog. I'm sure the weren't trying to make look bad, or look irresponsible owner.

Trying to find the owner of the car,& dog, isn't overacting. Actually, I think it's the first thing you should do.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

Yea, 85 is too hot. 75 is too hot IMO. The dog might be used to hot weather, but that doesn't make it any safer. Heatstroke is heatstroke. 

I know if I were sitting in a car, windows down a few inches and it was 85 degrees out, I would start feeling nauseated after 5 minutes or so. Animals just hide it better.

If the dog doesn't HAVE to go for a ride on that type of day, why risk it?


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

I would disagree on 85 degrees F being too hot. I live in the southwestern US and most outside-only dogs where I live easily handle 105 degrees F with access to shade and water during the summer.

I had a dog-in-car situation of my own last year where I had to stop somewhere for 15 minutes and Clyde was in the back of my truck. 89 degrees outside with a steady, cool breeze. I parked in full shade, and because the car is an old-school SUV without air conditioning, I opened all 7 windows about 6-8 inches so the breeze would flow through the truck but Clyde couldn't get out easily. I even sat inside for a good 5 minutes before leaving Clyde inside with water to make sure it was comfortable. Warm, but definitely not hot. It was like sitting on a porch outside. Somebody called the police, I saw the officer pull up for a few minutes and leave without even getting out of his car.

Being used to high temps does affect your tolerance levels. I know when Washington state got a 90 degree heat wave (dry heat, no less), people were in a panic because of heatstroke. Where I live, heatstroke warnings don't start appearing until it gets close to 105 degrees. Many people in my town, myself included, will be doing yardwork, walking their dogs, or playing sports outside at 90 degrees.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

85 is absolutely too hot to leave a dog in a car. The temperatures inside the car skyrocket incredibly quickly, even on mild days.
http://http://k9rescueme.com/k9rescueme/Main_files/heat_alert%5B1%5D.pdf


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

sassafras said:


> If you don't have a fob, then get another key made. Surely it's not that challenging to keep a second key on your keychain with the first one?


Well, 1) I didn't have the car when I got a dog - he came along 9 years later. And 2) it seems like an unnecessary $150 to spend at this point (that is how much the dealership told me another key would be when I bought it 11 years ago... its probably more now).

ETA: Plus I'd have to get the A/C fixed for leaving the car running to be effective. So I just don't leave him alone in my car if heat is a consideration. Its really besides the point... we nearly always take hubby's car if we're doing somewhere with the dog and it has autostart.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

With the windows down? I don't think it can get up to 140 inside if there is a significant amount of airflow through the vehicle on a 100 degree day. I've sat out in my parked car without air conditioning and it was maybe 102 inside after 10 minutes on a 100 degree day with the windows all the way down.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Honestly, I really don't see 85 as being that hot, so long as your windows are down, there's water available, and your not gone for more than 15 minutes, which sounds like was the case here. I agree with the OP, if her dog wasn't flipping it's crap in distress, to me it sounds like the person who confronted her was over reacting and looking to simply cause problems. It's okay to show concern for a dog in a car, but if the dog was doing little more than panting, there's no reason to be jerk about it and act like the owner is some sick deranged animal abuser.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I recognize that dogs DO die in closed cars and I don't think it's bad that people are more aware of that now and careful.

But I think sometimes it goes too far the other direction and things like conditioning (a dog who is out working and playing in Texas summers is going to handle heat better than a dog that never leaves the AC in Canada), and windows down/car being open become dismissed entirely.

90 degree temps and people in my agility class leave their dogs crated in their cars with all the doors popped open and water available, out of direct sunlight for an HOUR without any problems. windows CRACKED your dog will roast, but the windows completely down? Probably not much hotter in your car than outside, unless you are directly in the sun. And I *have* waited in the car with the car off during the summer and down windows DOES make that much difference. Like I said, cracked won't cut it but down does.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

RCloud said:


> Honestly, I really don't see 85 as being that hot, so long as your windows are down, there's water available, and your not gone for more than 15 minutes, which sounds like was the case here. I agree with the OP, if her dog wasn't flipping it's crap in distress, to me it sounds like the person who confronted her was over reacting and looking to simply cause problems. It's okay to show concern for a dog in a car, but if the dog was doing little more than panting, there's no reason to be jerk about it and act like the owner is some sick deranged animal abuser.


Thank you. She handles heat very well like I said and when she is legitimately too hot in the car (which has only happened once and I was in the car with her) she actually shoves herself under the front seat (presumably cooler). If a dog is willingly pressed up against the back windshield waiting for her owner I just can't see how that counts as distress.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

She didn't have to be so rude about it for sure, but I guess I can't see how finding an owner of a panting dog in a car on an 85F day is overreacting.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RCloud said:


> Honestly, I really don't see 85 as being that hot, so long as your windows are down, there's water available, and your not gone for more than 15 minutes, which sounds like was the case here. I agree with the OP, if her dog wasn't flipping it's crap in distress, to me it sounds like the person who confronted her was over reacting and looking to simply cause problems. It's okay to show concern for a dog in a car, but if the dog was doing little more than panting, there's no reason to be jerk about it and act like the owner is some sick deranged animal abuser.


85 is not hot.... Down here we do the electric slide when it is 85.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> She didn't have to be so rude about it for sure, but I guess I can't see how finding an owner of a panting dog in a car on an 85F day is overreacting.


Because 85 is nowhere near hot for here. Up there I can see it, here it's like... nice.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Did you watch the video I posted? The vet was sitting in a car in 95 degree weather, with all four windows down an inch and a good breeze outside. The breeze did not enter the vehicle. Within 15 minutes it was 110 in the car, and at the 30-minute mark it was 116. He was sweating profusely, which dogs can't do, and he was dressed in fairly light clothing but still said the heat was almost unbearable. He lived in an area with palm trees, too, so I assume he was used to hot weather.

I'm sure you're right that your dog was fine. But I wouldn't complain about a stranger caring about your dog's welfare. Maybe she was a jerk about it, but she didn't know how long you were gone and she didn't break your window, so it all turned out fine.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Crantastic said:


> The vet was sitting in a car in 95 degree weather, with all four windows down an inch and a good breeze outside. The breeze did not enter the vehicle. Within 15 minutes it was 110 in the car, and at the 30-minute mark it was 116. He was sweating profusely, which dogs can't do, and he was dressed in fairly light clothing but still said the heat was almost unbearable. He lived in an area with palm trees, too, so I assume he was used to hot weather.


I can attest to this. I sit in my car and read for 30mins waiting to pick up my bf after work. Unless both front windows are down basically all the way, it gets effing hot pretty damn fast, even on days when it isn't that hot outside, or there's a breeze, or whatever. And I'm a person who has a space heater on at work even during the summer.

I'd rather have the potential inconvenience/embarrassment of a concerned person coming to get me than come back to a dead dog.

I have seen some stick-on thermometers you can put in your window to indicate to people outside if it's gotten too hot inside for the dog.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

Although it involves a kitten, this seems relevant:

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local/duluth/2014/06/18/kitten-stolen-car-duluth/10810599/


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kayota said:


> Because 85 is nowhere near hot for here. Up there I can see it, here it's like... nice.


85 is not really hot for summer weather here, either. But it is hot enough that finding the owner of a dog inside a car isn't overreacting IMO.

Everything is ok until it's not. And no one ever says "yea, I thought it would be way too hot so I left him in the car!" The line from heat stress to heat stroke can happen SO fast, and once it does it's like a runaway train. By the time a dog visibly looks distressed, it might be too late.

But I'll remember that you'd rather I ignore your dog baking in the car if I ever find myself in your neck of the woods.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> 85 is not really hot for summer weather here, either. But it is hot enough that finding the owner of a dog inside a car isn't overreacting IMO.
> 
> Everything is ok until it's not. And no one ever says "yea, I thought it would be way too hot so I left him in the car!" The line from heat stress to heat stroke can happen SO fast, and once it does it's like a runaway train. By the time a dog visibly looks distressed, it might be too late.
> 
> But I'll remember that you'd rather I ignore your dog baking in the car if I ever find myself in your neck of the woods.


Exactly. 85 is spring weather here. In the summers it is 100+ usually. But 85 still heats up a car. Even 70 will heat up a car fast if it is sunny.


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## cma48 (Mar 30, 2014)

This isn't directly related to the post but it is just to reinforce the point that it is always better to have someone be legitimately concerned and express that concern than to not at all. 

This past week a friend of mine slept over. He just got his engine flushed so his car is producing a very very thick white smoke. He offered me a ride to work the next morning. He said he would be waiting in his car and he did for 5 minutes. His car was parked in my driveway which is right next to my house. By the time we left the drive way, there was a *huge* cloud of thick white smoke right next to my house. I honestly didn't think anything of it. My sister was still asleep it was 7 in morning. One of my neighbors jogging saw the smoke but she thought it was coming from the house. She banged on the door loudly. My sister can sleep through a war, she didn't hear it. My neighbor who lives directly behind me also saw the smoke and came out. She knew that my sister sleeps in the basement bedroom and started banging on that window. The jogger in the meantime called the fire department. My neighbor opened the window and climbed in and started shaking my sister (btws my sister sleeps naked during the summer). So my sister wakes up naked to my neighbor yelling that their is fire coming out somewhere from my house (hahaha). My sister puts on a t shirt, grabs the fire extinguisher ran around the house and couldn't find the fire. Then she realized that the smoke they were talking about came from my friends car. By the time the fire department came there was barely any smoke...

Anyways the point is that I am so glad and so is my sister that our neighbors (people I barely carry a conversation with) were worried enough to react. They felt so embarrassed about it afterwards, and apologized profusely but they shouldn't have. They felt that they overreacted but honestly I don't think they did. 

The person who hunted you down, was probably just concerned and worried. I understand they way she came off can be annoying but the negative consequences (if any) of being cautious or even overly cautious do not outweigh the negative consequences of being incautious.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

cma48 said:


> Anyways the point is that I am so glad and so is my sister that our neighbors (people I barely carry a conversation with) were worried enough to react. They felt so embarrassed about it afterwards, and apologized profusely but they shouldn't have. They felt that they overreacted but honestly I don't think they did.
> 
> The person who hunted you down, was probably just concerned and worried. I understand they way she came off can be annoying but the negative consequences (if any) of being cautious or even overly cautious do not outweigh the negative consequences of being incautious.


To me, it is a nice feeling when a near stranger makes the effort to care and do something, even if nothing was actually wrong as in the case of your sister and the smoke. The emotions of being worried that something truly is wrong can cause people to come across as more rude or brusque than normal.

I remember walking Chester early one morning and hearing a faint calling of someone's name and some other words as I walked. Quiet enough that I could have overlooked it and in a residential area when people are starting to get ready for school and work, sometimes you hear people talking. But the voice sounded pained so I searched it out and found a elderly man lying in his carport with blood around him. He was conscious but non-responsive so I tied Chester, called 911 and ran into the house shouting the same name the elderly man had been calling out. It was the man's son and he panicked so I had to calm him down too. The elderly man ended up ok in the end (injured, not dead which is good considering his blood loss) and the son later thanked me. 

Anyway, the point of this story is that it is worth paying attention to things that seem dangerous or off or just where your gut says something is wrong. Don't over-react sure but do react. Waking someone up, tracking down a dog owner, etc is a very minimal disturbance to someone when the potential negative results are considered.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

cma48 said:


> This isn't directly related to the post but it is just to reinforce the point that it is always better to have someone be legitimately concerned and express that concern than to not at all.
> 
> This past week a friend of mine slept over. He just got his engine flushed so his car is producing a very very thick white smoke. He offered me a ride to work the next morning. He said he would be waiting in his car and he did for 5 minutes. His car was parked in my driveway which is right next to my house. By the time we left the drive way, there was a *huge* cloud of thick white smoke right next to my house. I honestly didn't think anything of it. My sister was still asleep it was 7 in morning. One of my neighbors jogging saw the smoke but she thought it was coming from the house. She banged on the door loudly. My sister can sleep through a war, she didn't hear it. My neighbor who lives directly behind me also saw the smoke and came out. She knew that my sister sleeps in the basement bedroom and started banging on that window. The jogger in the meantime called the fire department. My neighbor opened the window and climbed in and started shaking my sister (btws my sister sleeps naked during the summer). So my sister wakes up naked to my neighbor yelling that their is fire coming out somewhere from my house (hahaha). My sister puts on a t shirt, grabs the fire extinguisher ran around the house and couldn't find the fire. Then she realized that the smoke they were talking about came from my friends car. By the time the fire department came there was barely any smoke...
> 
> ...


I hope my neighbors would be concerned enough to break into my house to alert me of a fire - even if it's just smoke from a car or other source that poses no direct harm.. lol. It's something to laugh about later, but in the meantime, it's good to know people would CARE enough.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

On the flipside today:

It's 93 degrees today so I left Roxie at home (85 is the max that I'll take her out in). I was leaving Wal*Mart and noticed a dog in a parked truck with the windows up. I got out and looked in the car to see if it was running... nope. This dog was a puppy and smaller than Roxie. So I was really upset about it (like shaking and everything) so I called the store and asked them to make an announcement and said I'd stay with the dog and they did so. This older bearded man comes out a few minutes later and I was very polite, I said "excuse me, next time could you leave the AC on or at least crack the windows?" and he said "mind your own business, buddy" and jumped in the car and sped off. i hope he took that puppy home.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> 85 is not hot.... Down here we do the electric slide when it is 85.


LOL Right? You want hot, come to Southern California for a day.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

LOL it doesn't snow here year round.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> LOL it doesn't snow here year round.



Nope! Sometimes we FLOOD instead!


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

sassafras said:


> LOL it doesn't snow here year round.


I don't think anyone said that? The sarcasm was a little uncalled for.


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## RabbleFox (Jan 23, 2013)

sassafras said:


> LOL it doesn't snow here year round.


Some long winters it feels like it does!


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Kayota said:


> I don't think anyone said that? The sarcasm was a little uncalled for.


Oh, good lord. It wasn't sarcasm, it was a joke countering the (common) assumption that it doesn't ever get hot up here. (90-100s are not at all unusual in the summer.) 

When I'm being sarcastic, you'll know. ;-)


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Kayota said:


> On the flipside today:
> 
> It's 93 degrees today so I left Roxie at home (85 is the max that I'll take her out in). I was leaving Wal*Mart and noticed a dog in a parked truck with the windows up. I got out and looked in the car to see if it was running... nope. This dog was a puppy and smaller than Roxie. So I was really upset about it (like shaking and everything) so I called the store and asked them to make an announcement and said I'd stay with the dog and they did so. This older bearded man comes out a few minutes later and I was very polite, I said "excuse me, next time could you leave the AC on or at least crack the windows?" and he said "mind your own business, buddy" and jumped in the car and sped off. i hope he took that puppy home.


How you felt, is probably similar to how the woman who approached you about Roxie felt. 
The guy in the truck telling you off and how you felt afterwards is probably how the woman felt about you feeling like it's no big deal. 

Maybe for that guy, 93 isn't "that hot". Maybe for that guy, it's "seriously no big deal". Maybe that guy was "only going to be 5 minutes".


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

trainingjunkie said:


> Nope! Sometimes we FLOOD instead!


Oh jeez, no kidding, we won't talk about the state of my basement and garage. The garage is worse because mud flowed in. Grr.

I bet that old guy is now starting an indignant thread on his old guy forum about how young whippersnappers can't mind their own dang business .


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

Sorry. 85 degrees is way too hot to leave your dog in a car for 15 minutes. You were out of line. I would've done the same thing.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Sorry. 85 degrees is way too hot to leave your dog in a car for 15 minutes. You were out of line. I would've done the same thing.


I agree. And even if it was just for a minute, no one knows how long the dog has been there or how long the owner will be. It's dangerous for the dog, makes some other irresponsible owners think it's ok to leave dogs in cars so they may do it and kill their dogs, and it's rude to the people passing by, because the owner of the dog is expecting people to wait by her car to see if she is "right out" or if the dog is going to start getting heatstroke.

To the people that leave their cars running with the AC on. I attended a dog show a number of years ago where a litter of 9 puppies died because the van they were in with the engine running/ac on, stalled so the air went out. The puppies died miserable deaths.


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## Robbi (Nov 19, 2013)

Yeah sorry you were out of line.
the cut off for me (and this comes from all of the vets and vet techs i've discussed this with) is 60 degrees, parked in the shade or on an overcast day with the windows down. 
granted my dog is a pomeranian so he's got a lot of fur, but that doesn't matter. I don't think anyone should leave their dog in the car alone for extended amounts of time anyway. What if some teenagers pound on your windows and scare them or someone tries breaking into your car??
that actually just happened in my area, a ladies car was stolen with her dog inside.

I honestly, even though 60 degrees i smy cut off in emergencies, won't leave my dog in the car unless it's absolutely necessary. To this day i still haven't left him unattended. It's my job to care for and protect him and how can I do that if I leave in the store for an indeterminate amount of time?


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## iilo (May 8, 2011)

honestly what did you expect when you started this thread


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i never complained about the responses lol... my dog my decision


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## Robbi (Nov 19, 2013)

Kayota said:


> i never complained about the responses lol... my dog my decision


I'm sorry, I don't mean to offend you, but it really shouldn't be your decision if you're endangering their life.

I understand you probably care a lot for your dog, and this isn't necessarily directed at you, but that mentality "my dog my decision" is what leads me to think some people just shouldn't own dogs. I made a thread about this on the training board, it's like people who jump right to aversive punishment like shock collars and choke chains. Well it's their dog and their decision but that isn't what is best or even healthy for the dog physiologically or mentally


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## HollowHeaven (Feb 5, 2012)

Hope your decision doesn't get her killed needlessly.


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## CandyLeopard (Oct 14, 2013)

I understand wanting to bring your dog for a ride, because of how much they love it. I do it but... I would never bring him if I was going to be leaving the car any longer than 5-10min. And never in hot temps.

I don't disagree with what that lady did. I'd rather that, than have the car window broken and SPCA called. Some people are too quick to take extreme measures. It sucks that she was rude, though.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

HollowHeaven said:


> Hope your decision doesn't get her killed needlessly.


IIt won't, I've been bringing her out in 85 and under weather for the past 6 Years of her life  85 degrees is truly not hot. She has never shown any signs of distress in that kind of weather. Thank you for implying that im unfit to own a dog because i took her out in slightly warm weather and went in a store for a few minutes. Really. Fortunately I am in fact not endangering her life so i think it should in fact be my decision.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

A car gets much hotter than the outside. A breeze does not blow through a cracked window -- the air is still, which makes it feel even hotter than it is. In addition, the actual temperature climbs quickly as well.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

It was evening and the sun was setting... i dont think the temperature is going to climb in the evening. A breeze may not blow through the crack but if she put her head out... surprise! Breeze. Again, she was in no danger. iF she were she would have died the first time i left her in my car.

ii think im just going to go ahead and bow out of this thread now, you have all made it very clear that im apparently an irresponsible owner and shouldnt have a dog so ill just go ahead and tell roxie that and see what she thinks  i just don't think we will get anywhere at tthis point because Ireally cannot grasp the point of view that 85 Degrees is too hot to take my dog with me for a short trip into the store.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You always take the things people say in the absolute worst way possible, don't you? Did anyone on this thread tell you that you shouldn't own a dog? Because I sure didn't say that.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Kayota said:


> It was evening and the sun was setting... i dont think the temperature is going to climb in the evening. A breeze may not blow through the crack but if she put her head out... surprise! Breeze. Again, she was in no danger. iF she were she would have died the first time i left her in my car.
> 
> ii think im just going to go ahead and bow out of this thread now, you have all made it very clear that im apparently an irresponsible owner and shouldnt have a dog so ill just go ahead and tell roxie that and see what she thinks  i just don't think we will get anywhere at tthis point because Ireally cannot grasp the point of view that 85 Degrees is too hot to take my dog with me for a short trip into the store.


Don't worry about it, seriously. Leaving your dog in a car for 15 minutes in 85 degree weather with the windows down and a bowl of water is NOT going to kill them, though you might give some overly paranoid people a stroke when you tell them this. But hell, what do I know? I just drove from AZ to NH in a truck that has no air conditioner where the weather reached 100 degrees at times in some areas, so I guess I'm just as much of a sick twisted monster as you.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Kayota said:


> i just don't think we will get anywhere at tthis point because Ireally cannot grasp the point of view that 85 Degrees is too hot to take my dog with me for a short trip into the store.


It can be too hot. It will depend on the circumstances, the car, the sun or shade level, how far the windows are down, the wind etc. 85 degrees on the weather news site also doesn't mean 85 degrees everywhere in town, urban heat islands can be several degrees warmer than other areas. Parking lots soak up a lot of heat during the day and stay hotter than a grassy area longer into the evening. So it 85 is the max temperature you (a person, not "you") feels comfortable leaving the dog, it is best to consider than it could be 88 or 89 degrees at the actual place that you (a person, not "you") ends up parked at. And that a short trip can end up longer than expected too. 

Personally, 85 is too hot for me to leave the dogs unless it is either an emergency or it is full dark and I can put the windows down a lot more than just a few inches. (I don't have the type of car and size of dogs that could be set up with crates and fans and shade clothes like the people that do dog sports) 
But I'm basically risk averse when there is minimal potential gain for taking the risk. Chester loves car rides, but he doesn't know he's missing one and he's just as happy with a walk when I get home anyway. 









"VEHICLE HEATING DYNAMICS

The atmosphere and the windows of a car are relatively “transparent” to the sun’s shortwave radiation (yellow in figure below) and are warmed little. However this shortwave energy does heat objects that it strikes. For example, a dark dashboard or seat can easily reach temperatures in the range of 180 to over 200 degrees F.

These objects (e.g., dashboard, steering wheel, childseat) heat the adjacent air by conduction and convection and also give off longwave radiation (red) which is very efficient at warming the air trapped inside a vehicle."


"Average elapsed time and temperature rise
10 minutes ~ 19 deg F
20 minutes ~ 29 deg F
30 minutes ~ 34 deg F
60 minutes ~ 43 deg F
1 to 2 hours ~ 45-50 deg F
“Cracking” the windows had little effect"

Source

Another (child related) study noted the risk of a 10 minute trip into a store turning into a 20 or 30 minute trip and raising the risk level significantly. 

As mentioned earlier, there are safe(ish) ways to have a dog in a vehicle on a hot day-- crated, all the windows open, fan on and such. But is it really worth going to that effort to take a dog along to a store for a short car ride? 
Play it safe, run the errand without the dog and then go for a walk when you're done with the errand is the way I see it. Or, plan special car-ride trips to places the dog can go inside with you or on days when another person can ride along and sit with the in the car (or stand around outside the store waiting).


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Sorry. 85 degrees is way too hot to leave your dog in a car for 15 minutes. You were out of line. I would've done the same thing.


No its not... I would do it even without all my 12 volt AC system, fans etc. IF I could find some shade, open the windows and tailgate window open. In fact until three years ago when I bought my 12 volt AC system, that is exactly what I did for years. About 23 years. 

I say that all the windows need to be down for cross ventilation and the car should be out of direct sunlight if at all possible. 

IF all I had to deal with was 85 degree temperatures, I would have never shelled out 1200 bucks for the system I have set up in my vehicle. I got it for the three to four months that are in the low to mid 90's on a daily basis....


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> No its not... I would do it even without all my 12 volt AC system, fans etc. IF I could find some shade, open the windows and tailgate window open. In fact until three years ago when I bought my 12 volt AC system, that is exactly what I did for years. About 23 years.
> 
> I say that all the windows need to be down for cross ventilation and the car should be out of direct sunlight if at all possible.
> 
> IF all I had to deal with was 85 degree temperatures, I would have never shelled out 1200 bucks for the system I have set up in my vehicle. I got it for the three to four months that are in the low to mid 90's on a daily basis....



The difference here is in 'open windows' as opposed to 'cracked' windows, or even windows being down a few inches. If there's more glass present to act like a green house than open space, you're GOING to have temperatures climbing pretty fast. I'll happily leave my dog in a car in a crate with the doors popped or all four windows all the way down in temps above 85 (especially if it's out of direct sunlight or in shade) because that's basically being outside. In a parking lot with windows mostly up so you have heat reflecting from asphalt and being trapped by the glass?

Not the same thing.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

RCloud said:


> Don't worry about it, seriously. Leaving your dog in a car for 15 minutes in 85 degree weather with the windows down and a bowl of water is NOT going to kill them, though you might give some overly paranoid people a stroke when you tell them this. But hell, what do I know? I just drove from AZ to NH in a truck that has no air conditioner where the weather reached 100 degrees at times in some areas, so I guess I'm just as much of a sick twisted monster as you.


It is no big deal.... Folks do not seem to realize there are folks that deal with temps from the 80's and up MOST of the year. 

Heck in July, August and September There are a fair number of nights you could not leave a dog in a car until well after midnight. We went out with friends last night and driving home shortly after ten at night the the thermometer on her car showed the outside temp at 82.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> It is no big deal.... Folks do not seem to realize there are folks that deal with temps from the 80's and up MOST of the year.
> 
> Heck in July, August and September There are a fair number of nights you could not leave a dog in a car until well after midnight. We went out with friends last night and driving home shortly after ten at night the the thermometer on her car showed the outside temp at 82.


Last summer, while driving through Phoenix at 3AM, it was 95 degrees out. It's a city of thousands of dog owners. I'm pretty sure people don't just leave their dogs home and never take them for car rides.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Windows opened just enough for a chihuahua to get its head out are only cracked, not enough to get the tolerable situation JohnnyBandit is describing. 85 degrees outdoors with cracked windows in a parking lot is too hot even with water provided. Water is not a magic coolant elixir.



Shell said:


> As mentioned earlier, there are safe(ish) ways to have a dog in a vehicle on a hot day-- crated, all the windows open, fan on and such. But is it really worth going to that effort to take a dog along to a store for a short car ride?


This is basically my view. If you're going to set up your rig for GOOD ventilation and cooling, park in the shade and off pavement, and monitor the situation, it's fine to take dogs along in hot weather. Personally I'm not about to bother with all that just so the dog can ride along to the store. If you have to travel with dogs and you are in a place with routinely high temps, you work out ways to make it safe enough. If you don't have to travel with dogs, though, it just doesn't pass a cost/benefit analysis test.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I've had sixteen strokes just on the last page alone.


I honestly don't see the point of taking dogs along to run errands. My dogs go in the car when I am taking them somewhere, and very occasionally it's a lot more convenient for me to make a quick stop with them on the way out or home. But if my outing had nothing to do with them?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> The difference here is in 'open windows' as opposed to 'cracked' windows, or even windows being down a few inches. If there's more glass present to act like a green house than open space, you're GOING to have temperatures climbing pretty fast. I'll happily leave my dog in a car in a crate with the doors popped or all four windows all the way down in temps above 85 (especially if it's out of direct sunlight or in shade) because that's basically being outside. In a parking lot with windows mostly up so you have heat reflecting from asphalt and being trapped by the glass?
> 
> Not the same thing.


Nobody has once said, that it was okay to leave a dog in the car with the windows closed at those temps. I would not do it at 65. Because heat WILL build up. 

The OP's windows WERE open. Ideally they should have been open all the way. But she stated that the windows were open far enough that the dog could stick its head out. 

So my description and how the OP left her dog are MUCH closer than the crazy high temperatures that folks are quoting. 

The When a closed car sitting in the sun becomes super heated it is because there is NO air exchange. The hot air cannot escape and becomes super heated. As soon as their is any ventilation this "oven effect" if you will does not come into play. EVEN if there is NO wind... Because the warmer air is NATURALLY going to rise. And it will work itself right along the ceiling of the car and escape out of the window. And since we do not live in a vacuum, that hotter air that is escaping will be replaced with cooler air. 

That movement of air that MUST occur is used in homes in the south to cool attic spaces and crawl spaces in homes. The hot air leaves at the highest point of the roof via the ridge vent and cooler air enters the attic via the soffit (eaves) via vents places into the soffit. On a properly vented roof in the south you can go outside on a hot day and hold a small feather under one of the soffit vents and let it go. That feather will get sucked up and held in place against the vent via the the air pressure from cooler air entering the attic via the vents. You can feel the air movement in the attic. And can feel the hot air coming out of the ridge vent if you go up on the roof. 



Shell said:


> It can be too hot. It will depend on the circumstances, the car, the sun or shade level, how far the windows are down, the wind etc. 85 degrees on the weather news site also doesn't mean 85 degrees everywhere in town, urban heat islands can be several degrees warmer than other areas. Parking lots soak up a lot of heat during the day and stay hotter than a grassy area longer into the evening. So it 85 is the max temperature you (a person, not "you") feels comfortable leaving the dog, it is best to consider than it could be 88 or 89 degrees at the actual place that you (a person, not "you") ends up parked at. And that a short trip can end up longer than expected too.
> 
> Personally, 85 is too hot for me to leave the dogs unless it is either an emergency or it is full dark and I can put the windows down a lot more than just a few inches. (I don't have the type of car and size of dogs that could be set up with crates and fans and shade clothes like the people that do dog sports)
> But I'm basically risk averse when there is minimal potential gain for taking the risk. Chester loves car rides, but he doesn't know he's missing one and he's just as happy with a walk when I get home anyway.
> ...


For the reasons stated above, this super heating does not occur if the windows are open. And it does NOT have to be all the way. They only have to vent to prevent super heating. 

So all this that you posted does not apply....

Think of it this way.... If it is sunny 85 degrees out. You are driving down the highway and not a tree in sight.... Your car breaks down and you are stuck on the side of the road. You WILL end up sitting in your car while waiting on help. Because it will be cooler than it is outside.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> Windows opened just enough for a chihuahua to get its head out are only cracked, not enough to get the tolerable situation JohnnyBandit is describing. 85 degrees outdoors with cracked windows in a parking lot is too hot even with water provided. Water is not a magic coolant elixir.


Yes it will. Read my most previous post... The open windows will allow the car to vent.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yeah. I know how cooling works. I've got a science degree, my husband has a couple and I leave in the south. You don't need them open all the way to provide cooling, no, but they DO need to be open: a-) more than the rain guard on your window, and b-) have them open enough to allow air to exchange freely. If you have 18 inches of class and 2 inches of air (or 3) then you are STILL going to have temperatures build up. Not to oven temperatures, but enough to be dangerous for the dog. Air flow is, like you said, the important part. Mostly up windows impede that air exchange. Which means the air heats up faster than it escapes. Which means temps go up. How much? Who knows. Is there a breeze? How direct is the sunlight? What is the surface the car is parked on? What color is the car? Are the windows tinted? Which DIRECTION is the breeze coming from? 

There are lots of factors at play and 'there's some air coming in or going out through any size opening at all is NOT the only thing that matters. Actual GREENHOUSES have ventilation. 


sassafras said:


> I've had sixteen strokes just on the last page alone.
> 
> 
> I honestly don't see the point of taking dogs along to run errands. My dogs go in the car when I am taking them somewhere, and very occasionally it's a lot more convenient for me to make a quick stop with them on the way out or home. But if my outing had nothing to do with them?


I don't see the point in taking dogs out while they run errands, either. I think it's pretty silly, all around. 

There are situations and times when you're going to need to take your dogs on trips during the summer, and there are even times you're going to have to leave one or more of them alone (this is going to be a regular thing in my dogs' lives this summer thanks to classes). But even if you can do it perfectly safely (windows down, shade, special cooling equipment, whatever)....

Why would you want to take your dog with you to go buy groceries or when you go out to eat, or whatever other thing means they're sitting in a car while you do stuff instead of sitting at home? Just... why? Stuff happens SOMETIMES, yes, but there are people who do this regularly and it makes no sense to me.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> For the reasons stated above, this super heating does not occur if the windows are open. And it does NOT have to be all the way. *They only have to vent to prevent super heating. *
> 
> So all this that you posted does not apply....
> 
> Think of it this way.... If it is sunny 85 degrees out. You are driving down the highway and not a tree in sight.... Your car breaks down and you are stuck on the side of the road. You WILL end up sitting in your car while waiting on help. Because it will be cooler than it is outside.


Except that the studies specifically note that a few inches of window down does NOT change the rate of the heat rise nor the final temperature. "Venting" is not enough. 

Broke down on the side of the road with no shade? You lower the windows 100% down. And probably open the non-traffic side doors too. that isn't the same as cracking them a few inches for a dog's head the size of a Chi's to look out.

I grew up in Florida and mom's car was a 1972 Dodge that had no A/C. I can't quantify the difference since I didn't carry a thermometer around with me obviously but there was a huge difference between 5-6 inches of window down vs fully down or at least well over half-way down.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> I've had sixteen strokes just on the last page alone.
> 
> 
> I honestly don't see the point of taking dogs along to run errands. My dogs go in the car when I am taking them somewhere, and very occasionally it's a lot more convenient for me to make a quick stop with them on the way out or home. But if my outing had nothing to do with them?



My dog rides with me 70-80 percent of the time. Merlin goes to work, my family's homes, friends house's, etc. He pretty much goes everywhere he is welcomed. IF I am just going to the store he does not go. But Stopping to pick up a few things on the way home from somewhere..... Am I not going to stop and run in somewhere, take him home, then run back? IF he rode with me a few times a month maybe.... But he is with me 5 or 6 days a week.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Having the tailgate down and all windows open is a big difference than just a cracked window. Also driving with no AC but the windows down (therefore breeze) is very different too.

I crate Summer in the car almost weekly even now. But she's crated in the back hatch with it open and all windows and sunroof open fully. And me standing right there. (And 2 fans and a cooling pad too)

It's not the same.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I dunno, just between mushing, classes, and dog park, I'm taking at least one of the dogs _somewhere_ almost every day. The vast majority of the time, yes I will take them home first if I need to run an errand unless it is really out of the way to do so and I know it's going to be a really quick stop. *shrug*


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I take my dogs on errands all the time- in the cooler months only. My dogs love going and Mia loves sitting on the headrest and watching outside. They are sometimes in the car half the day and I know they'd rather be there than stuck at home. 

I like getting them out of the house as much as possible. I think it's good for them.....But only when it's safe.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> Except that the studies specifically note that a few inches of window down does NOT change the rate of the heat rise nor the final temperature. "Venting" is not enough.
> 
> Broke down on the side of the road with no shade? You lower the windows 100% down. And probably open the non-traffic side doors too. that isn't the same as cracking them a few inches for a dog's head the size of a Chi's to look out.


Tell you what, Tomorrow morning, I will put a thermometer in my vehicle roll the windows down 2 and a half inches, and leave it sitting in the sun. I will post pictures of the temps. I will also post the local temp from the time the picture was taken. On here and on facebook, IF I am wrong I will say so....

But I am confident the variance will be within 5 degrees.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And if we have to clarify that we know what 'real heat' is... I'm a Houstonian. Don't get much hotter than houston. 

Even in OKC we have had summers these last few years with 50+ 100+ days. I know hot. 

Still think that 85 is too hot to leave a dog in the car for long. Especially if it's sunny.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I may be fundamentally lazy, but my dogs don't seem to get a thing out of getting in the car ride to the grocery store, sitting there while I buy groceries, and then the ride home where they get out. If it's cool out and I've gone to the park, or the PetStore, or a class, or something and they're with me I'll stop if there's something along the way.

Maybe I just like my alone time, but I can't figure out any real benefit to the dog from that sort of thing. I especially don't see why people are so into it that it's worth the risk to the dogs in hot weather (risk from heat or animal control being called or a window being broken out)That's me. What other people do safely is not my business.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

It is 87 outside right now and sunny though slightly past the sun beating down on you phase of the day. I put a thermometer in my car in my driveway. Windows cracked a couple inches. My car is silver with a light interior. We'll see what it reads in a little while.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Tell you what, Tomorrow morning, I will put a thermometer in my vehicle roll the windows down 2 and a half inches, and leave it sitting in the sun. I will post pictures of the temps. I will also post the local temp from the time the picture was taken. On here and on facebook, IF I am wrong I will say so....
> 
> But I am confident the variance will be within 5 degrees.


As in, only 5 degrees hotter inside the car than outside? I'm genuinely curious to see what your results are.

I think the findings in a Stanford study match my subjective experience of sitting in a hot car-
"On average, there was an ∼40°F increase in internal temperature for ambient temperatures spanning 72 to 96°F. Cracking windows open did not decrease the rate of temperature rise in the vehicle (closed: 3.4°F per 5 minutes; opened: 3.1°F per 5 minutes or the final maximum internal temperature."

If I leave my windows most of the way down when parked, it is noticeably cooler when I get into my car but an inch or two doesn't make any perceptible difference to me. 

Vary the methodology a bit and a slightly different outcome is certainly possible or even probable; 1.5 inches cracked window versus 5 inches cracked for example, but none of the studies I can find say that windows "only have to vent" to prevent dangerous heat rises in a car. A couple inches open appears to slow the heat gain somewhat, but temps still end up dangerously high pretty quickly and end up around the same place.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Laurelin said:


> It is 87 outside right now and sunny though slightly past the sun beating down on you phase of the day. I put a thermometer in my car in my driveway. Windows cracked a couple inches. My car is silver with a light interior. We'll see what it reads in a little while.


Well that was a fail. My thermometer only goes up to 120F and it was reading well PAST that.


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

I'm just trying to imagine what it must be like living in a climate where it is 85+ degrees for most of the year. I just looked up our historical weather data for last year and the highest temp of the year was 80.6 degrees. Our hottest day on record reached 92.84 degrees. I have a hard time justifying leaving a dog in a car if it's over 68 degrees even if it's for a few minutes but I am "lucky" enough that it doesn't get warmer than that for about 9 months of the year.

A few stats:
The day 6 dogs died in a truck here it was only 68 degrees outside. It was 82 degrees outside when the dog died in a parked truck last week in Belmont. Last year a dog died in a car in Newfoundland when it was 73.4 degrees out.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Yes it will. Read my most previous post... The open windows will allow the car to vent.


I've actually tested this myself with a thermometer. Cracking the windows helps, but only marginally. The car still heats up quickly, just not quite as high and not quite as quickly. Cracking windows without a strong breeze (e.g. that cause by driving) just doesn't create enough air circulation to keep the temperature inside the car consistent with that outside the car.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> I take my dogs on errands all the time- in the cooler months only. My dogs love going and Mia loves sitting on the headrest and watching outside. They are sometimes in the car half the day and I know they'd rather be there than stuck at home.
> 
> I like getting them out of the house as much as possible. I think it's good for them.....But only when it's safe.


mia is small enough to fit on the headrest of a ccar? I have grossly overestimated her size 

i said i was gone but i have one more thing: that picture posted strikes me and wonder if it matters to you guys that I use a windshield shade. With the shade the difference between inside and out is negligible, windows up or down.

cptjack: Roxie just loses her mind when i ask if she wants a ride. Squealing, jumping. And she is my emotional support animal so she helps me to. 

i want to add I would never willingly do something that I felt was dangerous for my dog. She is my everything. You guys know that, I've been on this forum for 5 Years.

ooh also someone did outright say that they think a lot of people who say 'my dog, my decision' shouldn't own a dog and apparently even posted a rant about it.i


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Kayota said:


> She is my everything.


Then don't leave her in a hot car.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

i leave her in a slightly warm car, not a hot car.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

Gally said:


> A few stats:
> The day 6 dogs died in a truck here it was only 68 degrees outside. It was 82 degrees outside when the dog died in a parked truck last week in Belmont. Last year a dog died in a car in Newfoundland when it was 73.4 degrees out.


Okay, and how long were they left in there?


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Kayota said:


> i leave her in a slightly warm car, not a hot car.


All the "I'm so tough, I live on the surface of the sun, it's five thousand degrees four hundred days a year where I live" stuff aside, 85 degrees is objectively hot. You being accustomed to it does not prevent a dog from getting heatstroke.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

parus said:


> All the "I'm so tough, I live on the surface of the sun, it's five thousand degrees four hundred days a year where I live" stuff aside, 85 degrees is objectively hot. You being accustomed to it does not prevent a dog from getting heatstroke.


All the "THIS IS MY OPINION AND THUS HOW IT IS" stuff aside, it's her dog, and she has the ability to make the calls on what's to hot and what's not for her and her dog.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

parus said:


> All the "I'm so tough, I live on the surface of the sun, it's five thousand degrees four hundred days a year where I live" stuff aside, 85 degrees is objectively hot. You being accustomed to it does not prevent a dog from getting heatstroke.


She handles the heat far better than I do and I'M fine for a few minutes in a parked car in the 80s... I did it recently. So... ???


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Tell you what, Tomorrow morning, I will put a thermometer in my vehicle roll the windows down 2 and a half inches, and leave it sitting in the sun. I will post pictures of the temps. I will also post the local temp from the time the picture was taken. On here and on facebook, IF I am wrong I will say so....
> 
> But I am confident the variance will be within 5 degrees.


This is great! I'm genuinely interested to find out the temperature in the car. For how long do you plan to do this? All day, or an hour or two?


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## Gally (Jan 11, 2012)

RCloud said:


> Okay, and how long were they left in there?


I only know the time stats for the dogs locally. It was 45 minutes that the dog walker wad away from the vehicle. The point I was going for was that even low temperatures can be deadly. People have been saying I would never leave my dog in a car above a certain temp outside but lower temps in the wrong circumstances can be just as bad. 

We need to take precautions like rolling down windows and parking in the shade even if we perceive it to be "cool" out.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> I've actually tested this myself with a thermometer. Cracking the windows helps, but only marginally. The car still heats up quickly, just not quite as high and not quite as quickly. Cracking windows without a strong breeze (e.g. that cause by driving) just doesn't create enough air circulation to keep the temperature inside the car consistent with that outside the car.


We are about to find out. I have mine set up as we speak.All there is to wait until morning now.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

parus said:


> All the "I'm so tough, I live on the surface of the sun, it's five thousand degrees four hundred days a year where I live" stuff aside, 85 degrees is objectively hot. You being accustomed to it does not prevent a dog from getting heatstroke.


 My dogs run around and play, middle of the day, full sun when it is the 90's. I have had dogs work for hours in the sun. 

Like I said.... When it is 85 we do the Electric Slide... We think winter is on its way back.



parus said:


> Then don't leave her in a hot car.


You don't know that she did....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> As in, only 5 degrees hotter inside the car than outside? I'm genuinely curious to see what your results are.
> 
> I think the findings in a Stanford study match my subjective experience of sitting in a hot car-
> "On average, there was an ∼40°F increase in internal temperature for ambient temperatures spanning 72 to 96°F. Cracking windows open did not decrease the rate of temperature rise in the vehicle (closed: 3.4°F per 5 minutes; opened: 3.1°F per 5 minutes or the final maximum internal temperature."
> ...


Two and a half Inches is not cracked. Big enough to get a chihuahua's head is not cracked.

Two in a half inches is this long
______________________


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

rroxies head is a lot bigger than two and a half inches... lol


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Two and a half Inches is not cracked. Big enough to get a chihuahua's head is not cracked.
> 
> Two in a half inches is this long
> ______________________


I am familiar with what an inch is  

A good part of my point is that "cracked" in terms of window opening space can mean quite different things to different people, likely anything from around 1 inch to maybe 6 inches open. So saying that "cracked" is safe or not safe can be highly dependent on both what the reader considers as "cracked" and the surroundings of the car and other weather conditions not just strictly temperature.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Gally said:


> I'm just trying to imagine what it must be like living in a climate where it is 85+ degrees for most of the year. I just looked up our historical weather data for last year and the highest temp of the year was 80.6 degrees. Our hottest day on record reached 92.84 degrees. I have a hard time justifying leaving a dog in a car if it's over 68 degrees even if it's for a few minutes but I am "lucky" enough that it doesn't get warmer than that for about 9 months of the year.
> 
> A few stats:
> The day 6 dogs died in a truck here it was only 68 degrees outside. It was 82 degrees outside when the dog died in a parked truck last week in Belmont. Last year a dog died in a car in Newfoundland when it was 73.4 degrees out.


She claimed the vent windows were open in the back. I think she forgot or just did not open them. 

Our average high for the year is 81f. Average low is 66.

Our average high from June through September is 91. And the second half of September usually cools down. Our Average low for those same four months is 76. And you do not see that until well after midnight.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> I am familiar with what an inch is
> 
> A good part of my point is that "cracked" in terms of window opening space can mean quite different things to different people, likely anything from around 1 inch to maybe 6 inches open. So saying that "cracked" is safe or not safe can be highly dependent on both what the reader considers as "cracked" and the surroundings of the car and other weather conditions not just strictly temperature.


The OP said it was down enough for her dog to get its head through. Which is why I used 2.5 inches. I am not testing "cracked". Cracked is wide enough to flick a cigarette ash through. To me at least.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kayota said:


> rroxies head is a lot bigger than two and a half inches... lol


I said at 2.5 inches. So that is what I am sticking with. There is plenty of airflow.

Two Windows open.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Today when I took Kris into town for our Obedience training, it was clear and sunny and about 20C (70F). Every now and then, the sun would go behind a cloud and it felt quite cool out. I could see someone thinking it was cool enough to leave a dog in a car when the sun was behind a cloud but a few moments later, the sun shone and it felt hot, even though I am sure the temperature did not change that much.

I did leave Kris in my Van which has tinted windows, in her crate with my windows about half way down when we went for coffee afterwards. It did not get any hotter in there than it was outside and she was not even panting. I know 70 is not 85 but I would still worry about a dog being in a vehicle with the windows only open a few inches.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

heres a pic of my poor distressed dog










nnow granted the sun was setting.. but that's how far she can get her head out.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

86 out today. 

At 4 pm my car reached over 120 in 30 mins

Then at 6 pm I drove it over to a friends. 

At 6:09 it was 78 degrees. 
6:28 it was 105 degrees. 
6:42 it was 108

I have photos. Can't post at he moment though. 

Windows were all cracked as was the sunroof.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

how much is 'cracked'?


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

RCloud said:


> All the "THIS IS MY OPINION AND THUS HOW IT IS" stuff aside, it's her dog, and she has the ability to make the calls on what's to hot and what's not for her and her dog.


And passers-by have the ability to make calls to Animal Control or the cops.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> 86 out today.
> 
> At 4 pm my car reached over 120 in 30 mins
> 
> ...


What is cracked? I am doing 2.5 inches.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

parus said:


> And passers-by have the ability to make calls to Animal Control or the cops.


That's still overreacting on an 85 degree day. Passers-by have the ability to overreact.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

parus said:


> And passers-by have the ability to make calls to Animal Control or the cops.


And annoy animal control or the cops by wasting their time.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Won't be long now... the air temp is at 83 and my Jeep is sitting in FULL sun with Glare coming off the Window.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I left them down about 2.5 inches since that was our discussion point. 

Forecast for the time: Taken right before I left.


86 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

My car's reading of the temperature (taken at the end of the 'experiment). So I think it's safe to say the outdoor temp was at 86 the whole time. Or very close to 86.


86no2 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Prior to leaving it is around 116-118F. This is after sitting out a while. Earlier in the day (this is evening, remember) it was reading well above 120 in 87F. I did not get a picture of that.


118 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Arrival at destination (driving across town). 78 degrees or so. 6:09 pm


78no2 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

I then parked the car and turned off the AC and rolled down the windows as stated.

20 minutes later at 6:28 pm it is already 105F


628 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

So it heated up 26 degrees in 20 minutes in 86 degree weather.

When I left at 6:42 it was still heating up and was around 108F.


642 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

It just hit 91 at the weather reporting location a few miles from me. Humidity at 86. 
https://www.google.com/search?q=cur...:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb

I have not been inside the jeep since last night.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Current pictures









Right now it is hovering about where the outside temp is.. A tad bit less at the second. I started a timer at 10:20


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Screen shot of current weather underground data

Notice our dew point and humidity are both at 84

*Oddly there is no data on snow depth *
Christopher (KFLBRAND8) Elev 118 ft | 27.95 °N, 82.28 °W | Change Station
Current weather conditions updated 8 min 29 sec ago
Clear
Clear
89.8 °F
Feels Like 116 °F
N
5.8
Wind from SSE
Sunrise 6:33 AM
Sunset 8:28 PM
Moon Waning Crescent
More Astronomy

Today is forecast to be Cooler than yesterday.
Pressure 30.01 in
Visibility 10.0 miles
Clouds Clear
Heat Index 116 °F
Dew Point 84 °F
Humidity 84%
Rainfall 0.00 in
Snow Depth Not available.
UV 11 out of 16
Pollen 3.00 out of 12
Air Quality Not available.
Flu Activity Sporadic
METAR KTPF 221455Z AUTO 30005KT 10SM CLR 31/23 A3001 RMK AO2


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

This is one hour (11:20) After the outside temperature reached 90 and the last picture was taken. 
99 degrees. Angle is a little bad. But I did not want to open the door. I have been monitoring the weather underground site that is close to my house. During the hour the temps have been from 89 to 92 at the same location. 85 dew point and 85 humidity. Winds have varied from none to 2mph. Vehicle is still in full sun. 
The car has been sitting in full sun since sunrise. That side of the house faces east so it gets the morning sun. It was approximately 77. So it was about 77 outside when the sun hit the Jeep. So the Jeep has been sitting in full sun in HOT HUMID STILL weather with the windows down 2.5 inches (front driver and passenger only) And the inside Temp has failed to exceed 100.










Next phase of test... I have closed up the Jeep. It is running with the AC on High. I am cooling it down. I will then turn it off, drop the windows back to 2.5 inches and monitor every 15 minutes. We will see how hot the car might get for a 15 minute stop.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I wonder what's responsible for the difference between you and Laurelin's results are. Clearly there are lots and lots of variables at play, but the results are so wildly inconsistent at least one of them is making a *radical* difference. I mean you got less than 10 degrees increase, and she got about 40 and results more consistent with other experiments and studies have shown. Time of day might be part of it, maybe size of vehicle, but I don't even begin to know how to sort that one out. It'd be kind of cool if we could, though, figure out how to stop that kind of climb WITHOUT the 1200 cooling system.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My car is an RX350 so small sized SUV. My car is silver and interior is mostly gray leather.

I tried again this morning as I went to let my friend's dogs out. 

Exterior temperature 82 degrees F.


trial2 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Interior temperature at start 78 degrees F.


trial22 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Interior temperature at 30 mins approx 108 degrees F.


trial23 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Personally, that is by far proof enough to me that even if it is 80 some odd outside it is NOT necessarily 80 some odd in your car. So saying it is 'only 85' doesn't matter... it is the temp inside your car that does. And at 85 outside your car could be 110 inside. 

I am going to do one last run this afternoon. I'm driving out about an hour to a sports facility where we're renting the ring. I can easily go in and out to check every 10 minutes. I will place a bet now that it will hit over the 120 mark since it is starting at 2:30 pm.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Laurelin said:


> Personally, that is by far proof enough to me that even if it is 80 some odd outside it is NOT necessarily 80 some odd in your car. So saying it is 'only 85' doesn't matter... it is the temp inside your car that does. And at 85 outside your car could be 110 inside.
> 
> I am going to do one last run this afternoon. I'm driving out about an hour to a sports facility where we're renting the ring. I can easily go in and out to check every 10 minutes. I will place a bet now that it will hit over the 120 mark since it is starting at 2:30 pm.


Yep, me too. I just can't help but be curious at the disparity that JB's experiment is showing. Me? I'm with you. That's way, way more than enough evidence to say that temperatures inside the car rise rapidly, especially combined with it supporting other established findings on the same topic. I'm just bewildered by < 10 degrees increase from JB. With, unless he's got a sunroof he's not telling us about, less ventilation. Doesn't make much sense to me, and I want to know what the variable is, dang it.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> I wonder what's responsible for the difference between you and Laurelin's results are. Clearly there are lots and lots of variables at play, but the results are so wildly inconsistent at least one of them is making a *radical* difference. I mean you got less than 10 degrees increase, and she got about 40 and results more consistent with other experiments and studies have shown. Time of day might be part of it, maybe size of vehicle, but I don't even begin to know how to sort that one out. It'd be kind of cool if we could, though, figure out how to stop that kind of climb WITHOUT the 1200 cooling system.


I have NO idea what the difference is.. I put the thermometer in last night... Put the windows down 2.5 inches and measured them. I did wake up this morning until after nine and did not go look until the weather said it was 85 outside. The car is in full sun on the east side of my house in full sun.. Temp at sunrise was 77. I have taken all pictures from the outside which is why I went out and bought a big dial type thermometer and mounted it on the steering wheel. No doors were opened until 11:20 when I cranked up the vehicle to cool it down. 

I did not do this to "be right" The longer this thread went on the more I felt like I NEEDED to know. I was going on what I feel (as in how hot it feels to me) and what I thought. But had never tested it. If I was WAY wrong, it would DRASTICALLY change my opinion on the matter. I would never do or stay anything that I thought might cause someone to hurt their dog. And DANG sure would not do anything to harm any of mine. 

As far as the differences. I am pretty sure there is a huge difference in humidity and dew point between where I am and Laurelin is. With my air being much more humid. I am UNSURE what that will do to the test. I know from how I feel in the heat, the dryer the air the less oppressive it feels. And I would THINK that humid air would cause maybe a convection effect. Not sure if that is the right word. But would make sense to me that moist air would heat up faster that dry air. Moist air being heavier would move slower I think. 

I think Laurelin said her car was lighter color. Silver.... Mine is silver. And I always buy white or silver because of the heat. I have had black trucks. NO MORE. I am sure my vehicle has more cubic feet of space than hers. I know that my wife's car, charcoal grey that is sitting next to mine will get much hotter just sitting there. Smaller interior space, darker color. Lower to the ground could even have a factor.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have NO idea what the difference is.. I put the thermometer in last night... Put the windows down 2.5 inches and measured them. I did wake up this morning until after nine and did not go look until the weather said it was 85 outside. The car is in full sun on the east side of my house in full sun.. Temp at sunrise was 77. I have taken all pictures from the outside which is why I went out and bought a big dial type thermometer and mounted it on the steering wheel. No doors were opened until 11:20 when I cranked up the vehicle to cool it down.
> 
> I did not do this to "be right" The longer this thread went on the more I felt like I NEEDED to know. I was going on what I feel (as in how hot it feels to me) and what I thought. But had never tested it. If I was WAY wrong, it would DRASTICALLY change my opinion on the matter. I would never do or stay anything that I thought might cause someone to hurt their dog. And DANG sure would not do anything to harm any of mine.
> 
> ...



Oh, I'm not saying you're doing it to be right. I'm just kind of curious and interested.

I think one thing you might experiment with is not leaving it in overnight. I don't know how low your temperatures dropped (77 at sunrise makes me think that's probably about it), but that means the rise you're seeing is from there since the temperature has to heat up from that point. Or, heck, maybe just try at 2 p.m with a fresh start? I don't think that would make a forty degree or so difference, but I'd be willing to bet it makes at least some. Also angle at the sun at various times of day and angle its coming into the car could change SOMETHING. Also like you said, humidity, or maybe even longitude (again with angle of the sun, really).

It's just weird, is all. Not doubting your honestly, just poking at the science a bit.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

You two should each try it with the kind of instrument each other is using and see what happens. They're pretty different.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> You two should each try it with the kind of instrument each other is using and see what happens. They're pretty different.


Also that. 

Or better yet, a couple of people should go find a digital temp gun. But that's asking a bit much from folks ;-)


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I wonder what's responsible for the difference between you and Laurelin's results are. Clearly there are lots and lots of variables at play, but the results are so wildly inconsistent at least one of them is making a *radical* difference. I mean you got less than 10 degrees increase, and she got about 40 and results more consistent with other experiments and studies have shown. Time of day might be part of it, maybe size of vehicle, but I don't even begin to know how to sort that one out. It'd be kind of cool if we could, though, figure out how to stop that kind of climb WITHOUT the 1200 cooling system.


I would think that time of day and the parking surface matters a lot. 3-5 pm or so is typically the hottest part of the day and a parking lot or asphalt driveway has had a chance to soak up a lot of heat for several hours. Whereas even as the air temperature climbs in the morning, the ground still have some of the night coolness to it and isn't radiating heat yet.

I don't have a thermometer but I'm going rope my dad into this experiment also. He has one of those weather stations with the digital monitor for outside and the display for indoors. The parameters I set were:
Pull the car out of the garage (where it sits with the windows down in an insulated, attached garage so the air temps are mild usually) and into the concrete driveway in the sun. They live on a small lake so there is usually a bit of a breeze.
Roll all 4 windows down 2.5 inches each- car is a black 4 door sedan with cloth seats. 
Check outside temperature.
Set the thermometer on the backseat like where a dog might be sitting. 
Check the temperature at the 10 minute, 20 minute, 30 minute and 60 minute marks (unless at 30 minutes it is already exceedingly hot)
Report back with photos.

He said he'd try it after lunch so I'll post whatever he emails this evening.




CptJack said:


> Also that.
> 
> Or better yet, a couple of people should go find a digital temp gun. But that's asking a bit much from folks ;-)


 I'm gonna try with something as close as possible


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## cma48 (Mar 30, 2014)

I don't know why Laurelin and JohnnyBandit had such varied results. But I would really rely and put more trust into a study conducted by researchers and scientists, who conduct an experiment over an over and over again in order to lessen uncertainties, instead of trying to prove a point. I know I don't have to say this b/c there are so many educated people here, especially those in the sciences. But there are so many factors to take into consideration. One thing that I find interesting is that the temp of equilibrium for one car can be different for another car sitting right next to it despite the same outside temperature. 

"And yes, the equilibrium temperature of an object is partly determined by its color. Think of two cars sitting in the sun with their windows closed. If one car has black paint and the other car has white paint, the inside of the black car will heat up faster, since black colors absorb the most sunlight and white colors absorb the least, *AND the equilibrium temperature inside the black car will actually be higher than the equilibrium temperature inside the white car. *Why do black colors absorb the most sunlight? When it comes to color, light is either being reflected or absorbed. Black things look black because they reflect almost 0% of visible light, which means they absorb almost all of the sunlight that hits them. White things look white because they reflect almost 100% of visible light, so they absorb very little sunlight that hits them." http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1368

Either way, even if you don't find 85 degrees to be too hot for a dog to stay inside of car, there was no harm done by the women tracking down Kayota. Again she didn't know how long the dog was in the car for.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> Yep, me too. I just can't help but be curious at the disparity that JB's experiment is showing. Me? I'm with you. That's way, way more than enough evidence to say that temperatures inside the car rise rapidly, especially combined with it supporting other established findings on the same topic. I'm just bewildered by < 10 degrees increase from JB. With, unless he's got a sunroof he's not telling us about, less ventilation. Doesn't make much sense to me, and I want to know what the variable is, dang it.


I have no sunroof. Never had a sunroof. Sooner or later they leak and we get too much rain for that. 

And I have TOLD everything. In detail. 

IF you are alluding that I have somehow rigged it or am leaving out details. I have NOT. There is NO upside to putting false findings up on this. I am posting these pictures on facebook and folks are asking details. I have told them to wait a bit. There will be full disclosure on the photos on facebook when I am done. 

I can and have admitted when I was drastically wrong on this forum. I have personally apologized to members when I have gone hard at their point of view and it turned out I was wrong. And when I have apologized, I have always done so both publicly and privately. So everyone sees the apology and that they get a personal note from me. 

I have spent far too long trying to help people's dogs live long happy lives. I am not an expert on varying effects of heat and weather in certain situations. But I am experienced in living in the kind of weather I live in. Heck I was nine years old before we even had air conditioning in the house. Funny I do not remember me being hot. But when my AC started working not good but still working a couple of months back and the repairs were expensive, I dropped almost 8 grand and had a brand new system installed. We did not commonly have AC in cars when I was a kid. The main "family" car that my mom drove, usually did. But my Dad's vehicle, the Farm Trucks, etc. Never did.... I was on my fourth vehicle before I owned one with AC. Heck when I was ramping up the cow/calf operation and needed a heavy duty truck, I was looking at used Ford F350's. I found two I liked in good shape. Same engine, same Transmission, etc. Nearly the same miles. Same Model year. At different Ford Dealers. Only difference one had AC and the other did not. I was negotiating on both of them. The one with the AC ended up being about 200 dollars more. I bought the one without AC. And I was talking late model low mile trucks. 200 ain't much. I did not think it was worth the money at the time. Now I would pay 1500 for AC in a vehicle. 

And for the record... I would not leave my dog in a 99 degree car. I would not leave my dog in a car in the full sun in the summer. Even with my 12 volt AC. I still look for a shady spot. And when I run the 12 volt, I still vent the windows. And I would not leave my dog in a vehicle with the windows only 2.5 inches down no matter what time of year. If I was in Georgia in January and it was 22. I would leave my windows down if I had the dogs in the car, I would roll the windows down. 

And I would NEVER leave Keely in the car alone. She loves everyone. Someone might steal her. Who is going to steal Merlin or the Hell Bitch? I put locks on their crates if I leave them. To protect an idiot that might try to get them out or take them. They would HURT a stranger that was messing around in my vehicle with me not present.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sassafras said:


> You two should each try it with the kind of instrument each other is using and see what happens. They're pretty different.


That is my only thermometer.  

It seems to read pretty accurate though from what I've tested. Maybe a couple degrees off but not by much. This morning it was reading 82 when the weather was saying it was 82 out. The only way it gets way off is if you stick it right by the AC vent then it'll read lower than the rest of the car is.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

And no, I am not just trying to prove a point or 'be right'. I am genuinely concerned about the dogs in situations like these.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I have no sunroof. Never had a sunroof. Sooner or later they leak and we get too much rain for that.
> 
> And I have TOLD everything. In detail.
> 
> IF you are alluding that I have somehow rigged it or am leaving out details. I have NOT. There is NO upside to putting false findings up on this. I am posting these pictures on facebook and folks are asking details. I have told them to wait a bit. There will be full disclosure on the photos on facebook when I am done.


I don't think CptJack is saying you rigged it in anyway, I think she's truly interested in what variables might be in play. I am too. Not because I think either person who has posted results is trying to make a point or intentionally changing anything to get a certain temperature, but because I am curious about what factors might make a big difference.

This whole discussion started basically with the question of "What temperature is it reasonable for the Average Joe stranger to be concerned enough about a dog in a car to track down the owner?" 
So our layman's not-all-that-scientific tests are actually a pretty good way of seeing what types of locations, sun/shade, cars etc might get hotter or the types of situations basically in which it is reasonable for Average Joe to be concerned. A bit better understanding maybe of how very location specific or car specific details can change the whole scenario. 

I have no idea what the results will be when my dad runs the test on his car, it will be interesting to me regardless. I think it would be interesting to run the same test on the same car under a few different set-ups such as shade/sun, windows all the way down/2.5 inches cracked, morning/evening times. It might not mean anything for someone else's vehicle, but it could also be enlightening about a possible wide variation due to small outside changes. Or not, maybe those changes outside don't matter much.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

As far as sunroof goes, I actually do have a sunroof and vented it as well as the windows.... I'll get a pic of my car this next round.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> That is my only thermometer.


But it's for science!

I'm not suggesting anyone is "fixing" anything. The disparity is just so odd, and other than geographic location the instrument is the biggest variable I can see. It would be interesting to see if it had anything to do with the different results.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Had some trouble uploading. Turned the Jeep off at 12:45. This was as cool as we were getting sitting in the driveway at idle in full sun. Older vehicle. working better driving around but that would alter test. 










Closed car up windows 2.5 inches down. Same as before. Got got take the 15 minute picture.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I didn't take a pic but we got some cloud coverage here and that affected things pretty good. I had already been in shade but the cloud coverage meant it only heated up to around 95/96 in about 45 mins at 84 outside. Whereas with less clouds and 82 outside it was hitting near 110 in 30 mins. 

The next place I'm going will be no shade, black lot, and mid day. It's supposed to be low 90s out.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Wow it heated back up quick. It is cooking out there right now. It is 92.8 outside and 94 in the car. Dew point is up to 88 humidity still at 85.

1 pm photo. 15 minutes from the last...









We will see how hot it gets now. It is oppressive heat right now. 

Clouds are building in the west. It is going to storm. Those clouds are not effecting the car yet. They are way off from the back of the house. Probably still over the Gulf. I should get at least an hour before they get here.

Side note... All three of my dogs are out back playing with a new soccer ball in the full sun.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sassafras said:


> But it's for science!
> 
> I'm not suggesting anyone is "fixing" anything. The disparity is just so odd, and other than geographic location the instrument is the biggest variable I can see. It would be interesting to see if it had anything to do with the different results.


Yes the thermometers are different. I am sure hers it better. But I do not think mine is off buy much.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

1:15 picture. Back up to 99










Next picture at 1:30


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

So in a half hour with the windows down 2.5 inches, the temp inside the car is 6 degrees hotter than outside. But it swung 18 degrees from its starting point.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

I haven't read this whole thing but frankly back in my flyball days we used to leaves dogs in the vans in the summer all the time, all the dogs would be in 1 van, and the team would go out for supper after a tourny, we would find a shady spot to park, open all the vents and crack all the windows, and leave water for everyone, then we would go inside a fancy restaurant for like 3 hours. the dogs were always fine. I let Happy in my friends van for like an hour on an extremely hot and humid day several years ago, we didn't realize the park was "no dogs" till we got there and we have very excited toddlers with us. so we opened the windows, left a bowl of water in the van for her and every 15 minutes I went to check on Happy..every time she was totally fine. that said it is not general practice of mine to leave dogs in cars when its hot outside, I am actually quite paranoid, we went on a road trip just the other week with 5 dogs, even when it was only 15*C we never once left dogs alone in the van, we rotated everything so one person was always with the dogs. when I stayed I often felt so hot and stuffy I could barley breath and I would sit in the van with the doors wide open..non of the dogs were phased though, it was just me lol


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> 1:15 picture. Back up to 99
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Crap wrong picture. That was the one pm picture. Copy and paste did not work. I left it up and this is the 1:15


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

1:30 picture... I still have sun overhead but now clouds are moving from the west FAST and starting to build in the Southeast close. As you can see from the reflection. I hope I get an hour... Things can happen fast when the clouds start building. 










Dead on 100 now. 93 outside.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Interesting side note I just thought of... This is what the typical animal control vehicle looks like down here. Aluminum box with individual compartments and vented doors. SOME have fans that can be activated from the cab but none has AC. 

This one is from two counties to the east of me. I could not find one from my county. 










They pick up dogs and ride around with them in the sun in metal boxes. 

the 1:45 photo is interesting.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

1:45 picture. Now I have 110. Interesting and now this is bugging me. How come when I left the car closed up since daybreak until I cranked it up, (5 hours) it never got over 99. Now I got 110 in an hour. The temp was about the same for the last hour before. Nothing has changed with the vehicle.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I don't know what point certain posters are trying to make, but I sure hope no dog dies or suffers needlessly because of some of the posts that are being put up in this thread. 



> And no, I am not just trying to prove a point or 'be right'. I am genuinely concerned about the dogs in situations like these.


Your efforts are very much appreciated. It is counter intuitive to think that cars don't get extremely and dangerously hot in the summertime. I hope people heed your warnings.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Now 2pm... an hour and 1:15 minutes after the car was turned off and closed up. 108/ Dropped a couple.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

So Cavalier said:


> Your efforts are very much appreciated. It is counter intuitive to think that cars don't get extremely and dangerously hot in the summertime. I hope people heed your warnings.


Nobody said they do not.. The point of discussion is that is a dog safe left for 15 minutes in 85 degree weather with the windows down a few inches. 

After messing with this for a day, my answer is still the same as it was from my first post.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

2;15 Still at 108.

Seems to have leveled out there. 

One more and I have other stuff to do.


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## Rescued (Jan 8, 2012)

Driveway with trees and grass next to car is totally different from an asphalt parking lot. Car in a parking lot is gonna heat up a lot faster.


Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Rescued said:


> Driveway with trees and grass next to car is totally different from an asphalt parking lot. Car in a parking lot is gonna heat up a lot faster.
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Car is on pavement and the trees you see in the background are across the street. Car is in full sun.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Last picture and it is done... it is about to rain. It has been leveled out at 108


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I'm just stepping in long enough to say that, no, I'm not accusing anybody of rigging anything. I'm legitimately and sincerely curious about the different variables at play. There are lots and lots of them, clearly, and results being exactly the same would be unexpected. I'm just *interested* in what kind of different results people get under different circumstances.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

It is currently 75 and breezy here. I a/c'd my car 'til it was cool inside, rolled down the windows all the way, and stuck a digital thermometer, shaded, in the front seat. My car is parked in my partially-shaded driveway. I came back 45 minutes later and the thermometer read 95. I've now got the windows rolled up so they're open about four inches. I'm curious to see how hot it will be in 15-20 min.

-- ETA -- 14 minutes later, and it's 105 degrees. I ran the a/c 'til I was comfortable sitting in the car between the two readings. I wouldn't leave my dog out there.

A note about these pics -- the "outdoor" temp on the thermometer doesn't work anymore, so that's the top line that is constantly blinking 57. It used to have a remote monitoring thing that lived outside and relayed the temp, but it's busted. Ignore that. I also moved the thing to the steering wheel to take a picture of it, since it was sitting on the floor of the driver's seat.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> I'm just stepping in long enough to say that, no, I'm not accusing anybody of rigging anything. I'm legitimately and sincerely curious about the different variables at play. There are lots and lots of them, clearly, and results being exactly the same would be unexpected. I'm just *interested* in what kind of different results people get under different circumstances.


I think I figured it out... Hold the phone I am fact checking and digesting to be sure my thought process is correct.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I have no thermometer pictures to show you, no scientific data to share, only my observations. Steve & I were out. He went into Home Depot & I stayed in the car. We were parked in the shade, it was 84 outside. I had the keys so I put all four van windows down about 2.5 inches. I sat there with a bottle of water and no fur coat on. I lasted 11 minutes. 

No dog should have been I side my shaded van today with them cracked that amount even with water. I fail to understand the need to take a dog in the car in this weather. If it's for a vet, go & go home. Need to stop, leave them home. Take the dog out and I'm sure I'm not the only person who would do whatever's needed for your dog.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

I'm not a physics major, but it seems to me that the most significant variables are the amount of radiation hitting the car's interior and the size and composition of the vehicle. You will get wildly different results for this experiment depending on the time of year, location, time of day, smog level, cloud cover and humidity. All of those things will affect the amount of radiation hitting the car. The size of the car as well as the surface area and shape of the windows will affect both the amount of radiation getting through and the force of any crossbreeze generated by the open windows. Tinted windows and windshield shades will block radiation, reducing heat. As already mentioned, the color of the vehicle will also affect the amount of heat absorbed. I am not well-versed on the different plastics used in cars these days, but I'm sure there's a whole range of variables there.

Every single situation is going to be different, but the most important thing to pay attention to is the time of day. There is a huge difference in the amount of radiation exposure you get depending on the angle of the sun, and you get your most direct sunlight at a slightly different time every day of the year.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

HA I figured it out....

It is harder to heat the water molecules than air. So when air is humid, it heats (and cools) more slowly. 

And while my assumption that because of evaporation, humid air in most conditions will rise at a rate faster than dry air, is largely correct dependent on volume and some other factors. 

But, again, drier air cools and heats faster than moist air. 

Which is why the places with the dry air such as deserts, have the largest swing between daytime day and nighttime temperatures. And subtropical and tropical have much smaller swings. 

I live closer to the Equator than some deserts yet those deserts are hotter than it is here. It is because it is easier to heat the dry are. 

I live MUCH closer to the equator than both Phoenix and Palm Springs. But it gets BOTH hotter and colder there than here. And their daily temperature swings are much greater. 

So... I looked up Humidity and dew points for today in the state I believe Lauralin lives in. The Humidity and dew points are about 30 percent higher here. 

So it is harder, takes longer and more energy to heat the air in my vehicle compared to hers.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Luxorien said:


> I'm not a physics major, but it seems to me that the most significant variables are the amount of radiation hitting the car's interior and the size and composition of the vehicle. You will get wildly different results for this experiment depending on the time of year, location, time of day, smog level, cloud cover and humidity. All of those things will affect the amount of radiation hitting the car. The size of the car as well as the surface area and shape of the windows will affect both the amount of radiation getting through and the force of any crossbreeze generated by the open windows. Tinted windows and windshield shades will block radiation, reducing heat. As already mentioned, the color of the vehicle will also affect the amount of heat absorbed. I am not well-versed on the different plastics used in cars these days, but I'm sure there's a whole range of variables there.
> 
> Every single situation is going to be different, but the most important thing to pay attention to is the time of day. There is a huge difference in the amount of radiation exposure you get depending on the angle of the sun, and you get your most direct sunlight at a slightly different time every day of the year.


Interior size of the vehicles are not much different. Both smaller SUVs... 

The large difference in the humidity is the cause.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

InkedMarie said:


> I have no thermometer pictures to show you, no scientific data to share, only my observations. Steve & I were out. He went into Home Depot & I stayed in the car. We were parked in the shade, it was 84 outside. I had the keys so I put all four van windows down about 2.5 inches. I sat there with a bottle of water and no fur coat on. I lasted 11 minutes.
> 
> No dog should have been I side my shaded van today with them cracked that amount even with water. I fail to understand the need to take a dog in the car in this weather. If it's for a vet, go & go home. Need to stop, leave them home. Take the dog out and I'm sure I'm not the only person who would do whatever's needed for your dog.


But dogs in the south spend hours daily in temperatures hotter than it was in my van. One of my dogs has been outside for hours today. She has been in maybe an hour since 9 am. And she is out there because she WANTS to be out there. The other two come in and out. She looks at me like.. Do I have to. The one time she did come in, I made her come in. And she wanted back out the entire time. 

She is out there "working" My neighbor to the north is building a deck I think. There are several guys working back there and a lot of lumber going back there. She HAS to make sure none of them come in her yard. She is watching and patrolling the north fence line.

I have owned a good number of hunting dogs that never stepped foot inside a house and the only time in their lives they ever were in an air conditioned building was when they went to the vet.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Being out in the heat is different from being inside an enclosed space. More air flow I guess. Even if the wind isn't blowing there's still more air flow, and if a dog can lie down on the bare ground they can stay even cooler. I can walk the whole mail route in 100+ temps and yeah, it's not fun, but it's way different than sitting in the car at that temp.


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## Miss Bugs (Jul 4, 2011)

> I have no thermometer pictures to show you, no scientific data to share, only my observations. Steve & I were out. He went into Home Depot & I stayed in the car. We were parked in the shade, it was 84 outside. I had the keys so I put all four van windows down about 2.5 inches. I sat there with a bottle of water and no fur coat on. I lasted 11 minutes.


see this is how I felt about leaving dogs in the van on my trip, because "I" waited in the van with them and within 5 minutes I felt like I was dying. I refused to leave my dogs in the van for even a short period because of how "I" felt. however...my DOGS were fine... when I felt like I was dying, my dogs had not even broken a sweat, I was making them sit outside the van with a pail of water because "I" felt like I was dying from the heat inside the van..the dogs refused the water, got annoyed and jumped back inside the van for a nap lol

my "distressed" dogs in the van when I felt like I could hardly breath
















the girls I made stay outside with a water bucket longer looking like "seriously? can we just go back to bed?"


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Interior size of the vehicles are not much different. Both smaller SUVs...
> 
> The large difference in the humidity is the cause.


I didn't mean to imply a difference in size explained the difference in your results. I just meant it's one of the many factors that will change how the car cooks. I think you are spot on with the humidity. But didn't you see a much bigger swing when you did it later in the day? I guess what I was trying to get at was that there's no good rule of thumb for this because you just have to know the weather where you are. For an individual dog owner, the most significant variable is going to be the time of day.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

My dad emailed me the results of his test in his car today. 
The interesting thing to me wasn't how fast or how slow it heated but that the outside (shaded front porch) temperature at his house was reading 90 degrees but if he checked the weather online, it said 86-88 degrees for his small town. Of course a parking lot would have an even higher "starting" temperature while a darkly shaded area a bit lower.

Starting at 90 degrees air temps, it reached 95 degrees in 21 minutes, 99 degrees in 32 minutes and 104 degrees in 43 minutes. My father said he was actually really surprised it didn't get higher but he noted that the concrete driveway wasn't particularly hot to the touch and as you can see, there is some open area to help facilitate a breeze.

Results as a visual

None of this is saying do or do not leave a dog in a car, this little test was just an exercise in curiosity.

Humidity was about 40-45%, wind speed about 12-15 mph.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> But dogs in the south spend hours daily in temperatures hotter than it was in my van. One of my dogs has been outside for hours today. She has been in maybe an hour since 9 am. And she is out there because she WANTS to be out there. The other two come in and out. She looks at me like.. Do I have to. The one time she did come in, I made her come in. And she wanted back out the entire time.
> 
> She is out there "working" My neighbor to the north is building a deck I think. There are several guys working back there and a lot of lumber going back there. She HAS to make sure none of them come in her yard. She is watching and patrolling the north fence line.
> 
> I have owned a good number of hunting dogs that never stepped foot inside a house and the only time in their lives they ever were in an air conditioned building was when they went to the vet.


John, I understand what you're saying but IMO, not a fair comparison. At home, you can call your dog to come in & she can choose to stay out. She can choose to look for shade, dig a cool hole in the dirt or come to the door. Taking dogs in the car is the humans choice, not theirs. Hot is not. Some dogs might want to be out in it, dome not. I see a lot of little dogs in cars round here. Some look okay, some don't. I've sat in my car and waited. Only one time did someone not come out at lowes and I had to go in. She had five minutes to come out & then I was calling the cops. She came out & I did tell the owner that 92 and humid (last summer) is not proper for her dog in the car. She swore at me, no biggie, I told her next time I'd break the window. It's just a fine, I'd pay it if it saved a dog. As I said way back in this thread, people say "I've only been gone give minutes" which is usually off by awhile.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

I googled "dog dies in hot car" and there are over 37 million results (I know many are duplicate stories, searching only certain words), and "K9 dies in hot car" and there were over 27000 results (Ditto previous disclaimer).

What 100% of those dead dog's owners (who didn't forget they were there) had in common, is that EVERY ONE of them would have stated, like the OP, that "they don't leave them when it is too hot" or that "they didn't think it would get that hot" or that "they didn't think they would be gone that long". Not ONE of those owners thought that their dog would overheat. Just like the OP and others that think it's ok.

Just something to consider.


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## kcomstoc (Mar 9, 2013)

Everyone's talking about shade and wind and cracked windows but has anyone brought up coat length, type and stuff like that? I'm sure that would affect the dog's heat tolerance a little bit right? Also I am one of those people that don't take the dogs out on an errand UNLESS they are coming in with me, or to the bank because the bankers have dog treats for Jake and we go though drive through. I just don't see the point of taking Jake unless he gets to go in too. 

I honestly don't blame the lady for coming to find you Kayota because 85 is freaking hot let alone being in a car which (windows cracked or not) still gets pretty freaking hot.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I failed at pictures. I got tied up doing a lot of work moving equipment around and helping hold open the chute, hold the teeter for the more unsure dogs, etc. 

I DID notice that when I left it was over 120 in the car. 

I don't think coat type matters so much when you're talking about interior temps of 110-120 degrees or hotter. 

My dogs will hang outside, heck Summer and I even work agility in 98F temps. It's different when you're in an inclosed space vs outdoors. I also wet down my dogs constantly in the summer.

ETA: Humidity today is 56%. It's been fairly humid here lately.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Indoors vs outdoors makes a huge difference. Actual temps in our agility building are not different than they are outside. REAL air movement and shade matter. Even just moving to the second class and being able to pop the agility barn's doors open with the more experienced dog is like night and say.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Here's and instance where the dog got heat stroke, the owner went to trial for cruelty, and the dog has been held as evidence for a year and a half.

https://au.news.yaho...d-over-hot-dog/

*A WA woman who left a dog in a car on a 38C day has been found guilty of animal cruelty.
*
Adele Culverwell, 65, a dog breeder of Muckenburra near Gingin, was convicted in Perth Magistrates Court on Friday.

Her dog Roxy, a two-and-a-half year old Borzoi, has been cared for by the RSPCA since the offence in December 2012.
https://au.news.yaho...d-over-hot-dog/

A WA woman who left a dog in a car on a 38C day has been found guilty of animal cruelty.

Adele Culverwell, 65, a dog breeder of Muckenburra near Gingin, was convicted in Perth Magistrates Court on Friday.

Her dog Roxy, a two-and-a-half year old Borzoi, has been cared for by the RSPCA since the offence in December 2012.

Members of the public had seen the dog locked in a panel van in the car park of the Carousel Shopping Centre in Cannington and complained to the RSPCA.

An RSPCA inspector took the dog to a veterinary clinic, where it was diagnosed with heat stroke and had to be treated with cooling techniques and given fluid intravenously.

Members of the public had seen the dog locked in a panel van in the car park of the Carousel Shopping Centre in Cannington and complained to the RSPCA.

An RSPCA inspector took the dog to a veterinary clinic, where it was diagnosed with heat stroke and had to be treated with cooling techniques and given fluid intravenously.

_38C = 100.4F, WA = Western Australia_


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Laurelin said:


> I failed at pictures. I got tied up doing a lot of work moving equipment around and helping hold open the chute, hold the teeter for the more unsure dogs, etc.
> 
> I DID notice that when I left it was over 120 in the car.
> 
> ...


The critical point is where the air temperature is higher than the dog's body temperature, ie, around 100F. In this case, dogs cannot shed heat to the environment and their mechanisms for cooling by panting get overwhelmed. Worse when it's humid, cause in humid environments, panting doesn't provide effective evaporative cooling.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

InkedMarie said:


> John, I understand what you're saying but IMO, not a fair comparison. At home, you can call your dog to come in & she can choose to stay out. She can choose to look for shade, dig a cool hole in the dirt or come to the door. Taking dogs in the car is the humans choice, not theirs. Hot is not. Some dogs might want to be out in it, dome not. I see a lot of little dogs in cars round here. Some look okay, some don't. I've sat in my car and waited. Only one time did someone not come out at lowes and I had to go in. She had five minutes to come out & then I was calling the cops. She came out & I did tell the owner that 92 and humid (last summer) is not proper for her dog in the car. She swore at me, no biggie, I told her next time I'd break the window. It's just a fine, I'd pay it if it saved a dog. As I said way back in this thread, people say "I've only been gone give minutes" which is usually off by awhile.


Never said it was the same thing... But what I am saying is hot to you, would not be hot to me. And what your dogs would find hot and mine would be two different things. You said any dogs. My dogs would have been fine a lot longer than 11 minutes in a van in the shade in 84 degree temps, even if the windows were down only a little bit. Conversely what is cold to myself and my dogs would not be cold to you. If it gets below 70 I probably have a jacket and long pants on. 

And with the car in the shade, I am clueless as to what caused the van to heat up so fast. Sunlight is what heats them up fast.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> .
> 
> ETA: Humidity today is 56%. It's been fairly humid here lately.


That is 30 points lower than ours today.... We are around 86.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Kayota said:


> you heard it, folks. if you're in a store for less than 15 minutes on an 85 degree day and you leave your half-bald dog in the car with two windows down and a cup of water and she's panting, you're an abuser and you're going to have strangers write down your license plate and get a background check on you. clearly a panting dog is on death's doorstep and i should be ashamed of myself for letting my dog go on a ride (which she loves) and leaving her in the car for a few minutes while i get a couple things. also, every time she pants outside or in play i should instantly panic and bring her inside or stop her from playing because she is in distress because panting is a sign of distress and she is going to die.
> 
> apparently the lady is an "animal advocate". because attempting to get people's perfectly fine dogs taken away is obviously what's best for the dog.
> 
> :doh: like i would get it if she were in clear distress but the only POSSIBLE sign was panting. so i'm just like ???


I think the original point of the thread, as often happens, has gotten off track. 

I must say I LOVE the fact that so many people put their opinions and theories to the test......

A few points. 

1) From the original post, the OP was upset because she left her dog for a few minutes, in the car in 85 degree weather, with the windows part of the way down, and a woman wrote her the riot act. She felt her dog was safe. I tend to think the dog was fine too. 

2) It is fine for the woman to be concerned. She did not know how long the dog was in the car. But it was not alright for her to show her arse over it. I myself have watched dogs on more than one occasion. And if a dog was in trouble, it would be okay to break into a car. But people, at least here, are not stopping at that. They think seeing a dog in a car is a license to break and enter. It is not. And in most places an arrestable offense. IF they are that concerned, they need to call the police. That being said, I would risk arrest if I saw a dog in serious trouble. I would also demand to file charges if someone broke into my vehicle. I would demand restitution as well. It also opens a can of worms. If someone breaks into my car, breaks the crate and lets Merlin out and he hurts them, who is liable? 

3) A lot of people make blanket statements. Using words like "all", "never" and "no". But it is not a black and white situation. Many people do what some are saying "never" to and have for years and never endangered their dogs. 

4) Do dogs die? Yes... There are safe ways to do it and unsafe ways to do it. Should careless people do it? No. Should Joe homeowner that thinks no more about his dog than to buy whatever dog food is on sale at pik quiwk? No... But dog sport people do it every weekend and even during the week. All year, all across the Country, in all kinds of weather. Safely......


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

JohnnyBandit said:


> 4) Do dogs die? Yes... There are safe ways to do it and unsafe ways to do it. Should careless people do it? No. Should Joe homeowner that thinks no more about his dog than to buy whatever dog food is on sale at pik quiwk? No... But dog sport people do it every weekend and even during the week. All year, all across the Country, in all kinds of weather. Safely......


As a sports person who has crated dogs in cars in hot weather that way... it is not the same remotely. We leave the hatch up, the doors completely open, dogs usually in the back hatch. Fans, cooling pads or jackets, water, shades up on the windows. People everywhere. Very different from a dog in a car with the windows down 2 inches.

And I have been to more than one show where they come in on the intercom to alert people that a dog is in distress in a car. I've even been at an event where the car was broken into.

It is not always safe.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

> 2) It is fine for the woman to be concerned. She did not know how long the dog was in the car. But it was not alright for her to show her arse over it. I myself have watched dogs on more than one occasion. And if a dog was in trouble, it would be okay to break into a car. But people, at least here, are not stopping at that. They think seeing a dog in a car is a license to break and enter. It is not. And in most places an arrestable offense. IF they are that concerned, they need to call the police.


Are you reading a different thread than I am reading? The majority of people here clearly stated that tracking down the owner is fine but being a jerk isn't fine, just somewhat understandable if someone is acting out of true concern (wrong maybe, but given the wide variety of temperature results we've just seen posted, it shows how hard it can be to judge what the inside temp might be without knowing how long a dog has been there). Just that having some stranger verbally be a minor jerk isn't the end of the world and it is better for strangers to error on the side of caution when finding the owner or calling the owner of the store's PA for example. 

Not that a dog simply being in the vehicle, even on a hotter day, is license to break into the car. People have mentioned things like completely closed windows, 95 degree weather, attempting to track down the owner first and not finding the owner etc as circumstances that _might_ lead to breaking a window. I said I'd call the police first and take photos first and it would have to be an obvious case of danger. If the police could get there in time, all the better but we have like 7 animal control officers for a city of over half a million so if they turn it over to animal control, it can be a significant time wait. When it was 107 degrees outside last summer it would have been a different ballgame than at 85, 90 or even 95 degrees.

I didn't see anything in Kayota's posts other than a stranger speaking a bit rudely out of (possibly misguided) concern. Big dang deal in the great scheme of things, heck, people have shouted rude things at me just because I dare walk around with a pit bull. Sometimes people are rude because you are in front of them at a stop light, sometimes people are rude because they seem to hate the world, sometimes people are rude because they misunderstand a situation, sometimes people just come across as rude even though they don't mean to. 



> apparently the lady is an "animal advocate". because attempting to get people's perfectly fine dogs taken away is obviously what's best for the dog.


I may have missed it, but what did this lady do to attempt to get Roxie taken away? Because that would be a much bigger deal than simply being a jerk to you.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Very different from a dog in a car with the windows down 2 inches.
> 
> And I have been to more than one show where they come in on the intercom to alert people that a dog is in distress in a car. I've even been at an event where the car was broken into.
> 
> It is not always safe.


I never said it was okay to leave a dog in the car with the windows two inches down. On page one I stated I would not do it without the windows all the way down, and I would probably pop my tailgate glass. I am the one that came up with the two inches. Only for my testing. Because someone said her window was barely down and her dog was a Chihuahua. So I guestimated the top to bottom height of an average Chi's head. I came up with the 2.5 inches. The pictures that the OP posted of how she leaves her dog, the windows are down way more than 2.5 inches. When she pointed that out, I said I was sticking with 2.5 inches for my test because I said the car would not super heat to the 120-140 temps if the car could vent. 

Nowhere in this thread was it suggested that it was safe to leave a dog in a car with the windows down two inches. As far as I am concerned the two inch deal was never in play. 

Also.... I am well aware of how people leave their dogs in cars at competitions. And yes it is different. But everyone that came to the show came in a car from somewhere. Many if not most, long distances. Those people stop to eat, pick something up, use the restroom, etc. A great many of them left their dog in the car on the way there and on the way back. 

I am also aware that dogs get into distress at shows. I have seen it myself. But some people are stupid too.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> Are you reading a different thread than I am reading? The majority of people here clearly stated that tracking down the owner is fine but being a jerk isn't fine, just somewhat understandable if someone is acting out of true concern (wrong maybe, but given the wide variety of temperature results we've just seen posted, it shows how hard it can be to judge what the inside temp might be without knowing how long a dog has been there).


No same thread... I did not type it perfectly... By here I meant people in my area..... I never meant it to read to mean people on this forum.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> No same thread... I did not type it perfectly... By here I meant people in my area..... I never meant it to read to mean people on this forum.


Ah, that makes far more sense. The "here" can be confusing between "here on this board" vs "here in my city" 

Sadly, I'd guess my area is the opposite -- where people ignore kids and dogs in cars even when it really is bad outside. Dogs outside with no water or shelter until they drop dead. Etc. Both extremes (breaking windows over nothing and ignoring real danger) are a problem.

It would be nice if there were more affordable/practical ways to leave a dog in a car safely for a short time while still securing both dog and car. I've seen some hatchback locks that allow the window or hatch to be opened about 8-10 inches but still locked with a key. Great idea if you have that style of vehicle. 
I saw on one dog sports website the locking window grates similar to the K9 car ones that weren't too expensive if it was a regular need- somewhere about $200-250 for a pair for the back windows. Wouldn't prevent someone from reaching into a car but would give a lot of air and secure the car in other ways.

In my car with my size of dogs, I simply don't see a safe way to secure both dogs and car safely in warmer temps which, while I don't really see the point of taking them on errands, is a frustration for when I am driving somewhere alone and need to pee.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> Ah, that makes far more sense. The "here" can be confusing between "here on this board" vs "here in my city"
> 
> Sadly, I'd guess my area is the opposite -- where people ignore kids and dogs in cars even when it really is bad outside. Dogs outside with no water or shelter until they drop dead. Etc. Both extremes (breaking windows over nothing and ignoring real danger) are a problem.
> 
> ...


One thing you can do fairly cheaply. Is put a toggle switch on the hot wire that goes to your ignition switch (where you turn the key) Mounted under the dash. It will throw all but serious pros off long enough they will abandon it. But the 12 volt AC systems are expensive and you have to cut a hole in the floor of your vehicle and they take up a lot of space.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> One thing you can do fairly cheaply. Is put a toggle switch on the hot wire that goes to your ignition switch (where you turn the key) Mounted under the dash. It will throw all but serious pros off long enough they will abandon it. But the 12 volt AC systems are expensive and you have to cut a hole in the floor of your vehicle and they take up a lot of space.


Interesting.

But mainly I was thinking along the lines of things that could be sold at a regular pet store to "average joe dog owner" at a price that makes it a reasonable everyday purchase for someone who only rarely needs or wants to leave a dog in the car and is somewhat universal in car-fit. 
The only things I could think of were the "Ventlock" hatchback lock (only suitable for hatchbacks of course) and the simple windshield sunshade (works on any car). A battery operated fan maybe but that would still require decent air flow and not horrible outside temps to work much so it goes back to the securing both dog and car issue.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

spotted nikes said:


> What 100% of those dead dog's owners (who didn't forget they were there) had in common, is that EVERY ONE of them would have stated, like the OP, that "they don't leave them when it is too hot" or that "they didn't think it would get that hot" or that "they didn't think they would be gone that long". Not ONE of those owners thought that their dog would overheat. Just like the OP and others that think it's ok.


Exactly. I mean, you can gamble that this happens to be the precise day, the hour, the location, where your luck and all the laws of physics and combine to have your car behave like JohnnyBandit's initial test, or you can just...not leave the dog unattended in a hot car for no reason. For me this is not a tough choice.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

But *I never leave my dog unattended in a hot car, so your point is moot.*


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

This thread is so funny. Of all things to be cavalier about. Today it was low 80's and over cast for the most part. I got into my car that was covered by the car port all night/day and practically melted. And I'm a huge fan of heat. 5-10 minutes may not be a big deal, and it may be only warm enough for a dog to pant, but I would not be surprised by a passing stranger being concerned. They have no idea how long I'm going to be gone or how long the dog was there. We should be so lucky other people actually give a care about animals they don't know.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Kayota said:


> But I never leave my dog unattended in a hot car, so your point is moot.


Didn't this whole thread start because of leaving your dog in a car unattended...? Unless the word "unattended" means something else.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> This thread is so funny. Of all things to be cavalier about. Today it was low 80's and over cast for the most part. I got into my car that was covered by the car port all night/day and practically melted. And I'm a huge fan of heat. 5-10 minutes may not be a big deal, and it may be only warm enough for a dog to pant, but I would not be surprised by a passing stranger being concerned. They have no idea how long I'm going to be gone or how long the dog was there. We should be so lucky other people actually give a care about animals they don't know.


Word. *too short*


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Didn't this whole thread start because of leaving your dog in a car unattended...? Unless the word "unattended" means something else.


This was my thought too. You can't really say you *never* leave your dog unattended, because you do - and did. You left your dog alone (unattended) in the car while you went inside to do whatever it was you were doing for however long you were doing it for. I would like to assume not long, but nobody can really say for sure since nobody was there.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Didn't this whole thread start because of leaving your dog in a car unattended...? Unless the word "unattended" means something else.





BostonBullMama said:


> This was my thought too. You can't really say you *never* leave your dog unattended, because you do - and did. You left your dog alone (unattended) in the car while you went inside to do whatever it was you were doing for however long you were doing it for. I would like to assume not long, but nobody can really say for sure since nobody was there.


I think it was the "in a HOT car" that Kayota was objecting to.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yes, because dogs only pant when they're... not hot. 


When things have degenerated to the point of confusing an argument about "too hot" with "hot, period," then I'm not sure what the point is. 

Everyone has their line in the sand, and most of the time when people are cavalier about stuff (anything, not just this) they are lucky and get away with it. I'm sure all the people whose dogs have died in hot cars had never had a problem with it before, either. Personally, I'd be thankful a stranger gave a crap about my dog and use this incident as a message from the universe to engage in a little self-reflection rather than digging my heels in because a stranger yelled at me.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Kayota said:


> But *I never leave my dog unattended in a hot car, so your point is moot.*


*

since you apparently missed the point the first time and are just trying to find ways to continue to make me look bad now or whatever it is you're doing. warm =/= hot...*


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

But as we've proven 85 degrees outside is hot enough to significantly heat up a car past 110 degrees in less than an hour. 

Maybe it depends on car, cloud coverage, parking surface, whatever, but weather in the 80s does NOT mean it is only 'warm' in your car. 

But it can happen. The lady did not know the temp in your car, she did not know how long you were gone. There was potential for it to be dangerous.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

but 85 outside does not equal 85 inside a parked vehicle.... Maybe we have different definitions of what hot is.

Going back to the OP, the lady, IMO, was completely justified in confronting you and I would only agree that she was overreacting if she had called the cops and/or broken your window. Be glad she cared, move on and perhaps rethink taking your dog out when it's very warm and you need to leave her alone in the car.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

I think, since I'll be home most of the day, I will do an experiment of my own as to temperatures with windows down.

One of the problematic variables I have been seeing with the most objective temperature experiments in this thread is they are being measured from the dash. A dog who is getting too warm will seek out shade and the dashboard is where it gets the hottest. Heck, at college, I will park my truck to face south, all windows up, and bake my lunch in a sealed tupperware up there for 4 hours until 12 PM. On an 85-90 degree day, I get food that's warm, but a little too cool for my liking. 100-degree days leave my food steaming hot, like it's been in a microwave oven.

So I will be doing an hourly temp reading in a car with three windows down a few inches with a remote thermometer sitting in the shadiest spot in my old SUV. Forecast for today in Elk Grove, CA is 96 F, sunny, and 10-15 mph winds. (wunderground.com)

Bear in mind, this is much more restricted than when I leave Clyde inside. I usually have all windows open, with the front two almost all the way down, wing windows opened fully, and the three rears open just enough so he can't get out. (6-8 inches) Any would-be thief would encounter an angry dog if he tried to get in, so I worry more about keeping Clyde away from people than people away from the car. I'll end the experiment and post all info when the weather starts to cool. I'm predicting around 6:00 pm in my timezone.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Kayota, why don't you buy a thermometer and leave it in your car with Roxie? Then you can tell us all the exact temperature when you left and came back, and we can all stop debating hypotheticals (and any passing strangers can see the temp as well, so if it's roughly the same as outside they might not freak out). You can get those pretty cheap, and it'd be nice to have one anyway just for your own peace of mind (it's hard for a human to judge temperature by feel alone).


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Here's one made just for dogs!: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004A98VP8?pc_redir=1403399147&robot_redir=1
Granted, it has 80 degrees as "too hot for Spot" but at least passersby could see the temp.


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## Luxorien (Jun 11, 2014)

This certainly seems to be a...hot...topic.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Luxorien said:


> This certainly seems to be a...hot...topic.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Crantastic said:


>


 I went looking for that gif. THANK YOU.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

CptJack said:


> I went looking for that gif. THANK YOU.


I went looking too :rockon:

But then I fell into the black hole of bad puns on the internet


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Oh Horatio....how I miss you and all of the horrible acting on CSI Miami. **sigh**

I honestly can't believe this thread still going...OMG.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


> Oh Horatio....how I miss you and all of the horrible acting on CSI Miami. **sigh**
> 
> I honestly can't believe this thread still going...OMG.


There are marathons on every Sunday/Monday on...some network I've forgotten. I knit in front of the TV and giggle - a lot.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

omg that gif. beautiful.

i might do that with the thermometer, ill let you know how it goes.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

CptJack said:


> There are marathons on every Sunday/Monday on...some network I've forgotten. I knit in front of the TV and giggle - a lot.


Sweet....I will have to snoop around my cable and see if we can find it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

MrsBoats said:


> Sweet....I will have to snoop around my cable and see if we can find it.


I think its the "We" channel. I don't have cable, I looked it up because I was amazed it was still on in re-run marathon format. Although, I remember watching Law and Order SVU mindlessly in the middle of the night after swing shift so it makes sense I guess.

I like the window thermometer idea in general, I wouldn't rely on it solely but it'd be an extra component of information. Could even be useful in other non-car areas. Like, when I visit certain friends who have dogs, mine stay in their Florida room with partial access to the yard so I have to keep an eye on the temps out there more closely than in the house.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yep. It's We. I figured this out because it's, um, on right now. 

It's absolutely AWFUL, but dammit.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

LOL, CSI Miami WAS awful, wasn't it? I wonder how it stayed on so long. Had to be Horatio. Anybody named Horatio has to be awesome, it's a rule. MacGyver is also cheesier than I remember from when I was a kid, but dang. I like MacGyver.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

OMG...it was so bad MrBoats would be in hysterics at how bad the acting was. And, those sunglasses of justice and the walk off H would do right before the YEAHHHHHHHHH!!! Sometimes H would do it, sometimes he wouldn't. We would take bets if there was a walk off or not....and we would be devastated when it didn't happen. All of the other CSI's were actually pretty good. It was almost like Miami was a parody of the good versions of itself.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

MrsBoats said:


> It was almost like Miami was a parody of the good versions of itself.


That is EXACTLY what it was like. Like it was... just making fun of itself. H is so. freaking. over the top. That I just roll around giggling.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

CptJack said:


> That is EXACTLY what it was like. Like it was... just making fun of itself. H is so. freaking. over the top. That I just roll around giggling.


We wondered all the time if the producers actually knew how bad their show sucked...


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

I always wondered if all CSI officers show that much cleavage...or is it just a Miami thang? Could be one of the reasons why the show lasted so long.....hubbie loved it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

So Cavalier said:


> I always wondered if all CSI officers show that much cleavage...or is it just a Miami thang? Could be one of the reasons why the show lasted so long.....hubbie loved it.


I didn't work in as warm of climate, but sadly, no, the crime scene officers I met did not dress like that......

Er, that's a good thing because no one should be judged on physical appearance. But yeah, not like TV


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

MrsBoats said:


> Oh Horatio....how I miss you and all of the horrible acting on CSI Miami. **sigh**
> 
> I honestly can't believe this thread still going...OMG.


I LOVED CSI Miami.... Yea the Acting was a little bad. But Horatio ROCKED! 

And I lived in Miami a year it was so much like that place.



MrsBoats said:


> We wondered all the time if the producers actually knew how bad their show sucked...


I think Sucking was part of the appeal.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

By the way... This thread made me laugh today when I thought about it and something that happened to me over the weekend. 

Both my Father and My wife called me paranoid over my dogs...


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

On the CSI front, New York was my favorite. Love Gary Sinese!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

InkedMarie said:


> Love Gary Sinese!


God, me too.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

lol i never got too into it but i always enjoyed watching csi and law and order with my mom. she loved svu  it always reminds me of her when i hear of it anywhere. and then we always watched monk together and i was crazy about that.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Lieutenant Dan you got legs!

On my own personal paranoa. On Friday we were invited to go on a dinner cruise in Tampa bay the evening of July 4th. Dinner, dinner drinks, dancing party etc all inclusive. $275 bucks per person. We were invited to go for free. The boat will be in positions to watch fireworks displays from three cities. I turned it down because of fireworks in my neighborhood. 

It gets to be like WW III here Four inch mortars rockets the works. And people get carried away. There ends up being wars between the streets. Shooting rockets over each others street etc. Drinking etc. And the 4th is on Friday this year. So I am expecting àn epic war. 

Now I do not have an animal in the house that is bothered in the least by thunder fireworks gunfire etc. But am not leaving my animals during that mess. My fear is someone will be careless or accidentally shoot a mortar or rocket directly at my house and it goes through a window. The larger stuff can easily break a window and those thing are full of phosphorus. If one got in the house instant house fire. If I was gone there would be no one there to make sure all my animals go out. 

My wife and father both suggested,I might be paranoid. Then I start thinking about this thread and laugh. Not picking on anyone but I guess we all get a little paranoid about something.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Now I do not have an animal in the house that is bothered in the least by thunder fireworks gunfire etc. But am not leaving my animals during that mess. My fear is someone will be careless or accidentally shoot a mortar or rocket directly at my house and it goes through a window. The larger stuff can easily break a window and those thing are full of phosphorus. If one got in the house instant house fire. If I was gone there would be no one there to make sure all my animals go out.
> 
> My wife and father both suggested,I might be paranoid. Then I start thinking about this thread and laugh. Not picking on anyone but I guess we all get a little paranoid about something.


Since 3 children recently died here and a 4th young child was severely injured when fireworks were shot into the house they were sleeping in, it doesn't sound as paranoid to me as it might to someone else. Heck, just yesterday the local PD arrested some idiots (adults amazingly enough) who were shooting bottle rockets at two kids in their own yard. 
If people get so carried away in your neighborhood especially adding in the Friday drinking factor that they are firing mortar rockets around houses and over houses, it doesn't seem paranoid to want a responsible human in the house- overly cautious maybe but not paranoid.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think it's paranoid to want to be home with your dogs when idiots are running rampant in the streets for _any_ reason, but especially when they're doing something that could set a house on fire.

I also don't think it's paranoid to worry about a dog left in a hot car.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> I don't think it's paranoid to want to be home with your dogs when idiots are running rampant in the streets for _any_ reason, but especially when they're doing something that could set a house on fire.
> 
> I also don't think it's paranoid to worry about a dog left in a hot car.


. 
I did not use paranoid in a mean way. Neither did my wife or my father. Both are far too nice for that. Actually they were giving it back to me. When I do something that someone perceives as risky. My typical response is don't be paranoid. Which they know to mean I hear you but I am doing it anyway. 

Yes I know dogs die in cars and yes some people are stupid people. But living in the heat and working dogs in the heat and traveling with dogs I am used to it. With my lifestyle and dog activities there is no way for me to not leave my dogs in the care. Now I have a 12 volt ac in the back of the jeep. But little has changed I always find shade windows down etc if I cannot find shade at a store or stop I move on and wait until I find a store with shade. I have never endangered my dogs. But I find it amusing at some of the temperatures that got thrown out for thresholds. Some of those temps rarely happen here. We average about 308 days a year where the high is over 80, 279 days over 85 and 105 days over 90. And our humidity is very high summer 85 up into the 90's. Winter 70 to 80. 
On Sunday when Marie posted about sitting in the van I looked up the humidity in several new Hampshire cities mid to high 30' s. Very different feel and weather at high temps. But life does not stop because it is hot just like life does not stop when it is cold and snowing.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Time for a new test. It is 93 outside my jeep has been sitting in the sun all day at work I just went out cooled it to about 85 and moved to a shady spot and and rolled down the front windows and opens the gate glass. No fans no ac just windows we will see where it is when I leave work


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

JohnnyBandit said:


> . But living in the heat and working dogs inAnd our humidity is very high summer 85 up into the 90's. Winter 70 to 80.
> On Sunday when Marie posted about sitting in the van I looked up the humidity in several new Hampshire cities mid to high 30' s. Very different feel and weather at high temps. But life does not stop because it is hot just like life does not stop when it is cold and snowing.


You may have just looked at a bad time, the humidity ranged from 38 to 80 on Sunday. It's not at all uncommon for the humidity to be 90 and above here.


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I thought I said " it wasn't humid here" or something similar....IMO sitting in the van the other day was too hot for dogs and it wasn't humid.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

InkedMarie said:


> I thought I said " it wasn't humid here" or something similar....IMO sitting in the van the other day was too hot for dogs and it wasn't humid.


I know you said it, and I was questioning it. But to me that seems like desert humidity


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

New test... I usually park in the sun at the office. At 3 pm today as mentioned, I went out, cranked it up, cranked the air and backed into a shady spot. I let it run five minutes or so. Did not have much time. The thermometer said it was 85 or 87. Did not have much time and the thermometer was sitting by an air vent. Turned it off dropped the front windows and popped the hatch. And taped the thermometer back to the steering wheel.


this is how I left it. Before I had my 12 volt AC and fan set up, this is EXACTLY like I would have left my dog if I had to run into a store or get a bite to eat. The dog or dogs would be crated in wire crates, with small padlocks on them. 









I left it like this. Outside temps were about 93 at the time. I left it that way until 5pm when I walked out of my office. 
At that time the Temp outside by then had dropped to about 96. It is 94 right now.
And the truck read. 

__
Image uploading. Refresh page to view









91

IF this is TOO hot for my dogs, I am going to have to let them pee inside for 5 months of the year. I have worked cattle in the sun with dogs in hotter temps. I have ran hogs in hotter temps.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I have avoided this discussion, but I have to ask: Don't you think it's all relative? My whippet plays outside in -10 F with no problem. However, I bet some CA, AZ, FL whippets would not fare as well.

My beloved black pit bull overheats in 75 F sunshine. I am certain if we moved, he would improve his tolerance.

Instead of debating details, we all just need to agree that being in a car in the sun can be dangerous and we have to be careful.

I left a dog in the car yesterday with no windows down for 3 minutes while I grabbed a diet coke in a gas station. However, I wouldn't have grocery shopped...


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Johnny, I'm pretty sure a lot of people in this thread have pointed out that there's a big difference between leaving your dogs crated in a vehicle with the windows down all the way and the back hatch open (which no one seemed to have an issue with) and leaving your dogs in a vehicle with the windows down a couple of inches (which most people view as more dangerous). Also, of course it's going to depend on a lot of factors such as sun, humidity, your dog's heat tolerance, etc.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

I taught an atmospheric science class in which the students were given some simple instruments and sent into the field to do little experiments. Car temperature experiments were always popular. The system turns out to be quite complicated. Sun vs shade, darkened vs. clear windows, open vs. closed windows, sun angle, car interior color are a few of the variables that seem to make significant difference. But almost all treatments ended up with cars too hot for a dog to survive long. That was in Western Australia . . . summer temperatures frequently over 100 F (ie, a lot of 'century days').


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Crantastic said:


> Johnny, I'm pretty sure a lot of people in this thread have pointed out that there's a big difference between leaving your dogs crated in a vehicle with the windows down all the way and the back hatch open (which no one seemed to have an issue with) and leaving your dogs in a vehicle with the windows down a couple of inches (which most people view as more dangerous). Also, of course it's going to depend on a lot of factors such as sun, humidity, your dog's heat tolerance, etc.


I know there is a huge difference. I stated that several times. 
I also stated I would not leave my dogs like. Nor anything like my test on Sunday. 
And I said it matters if the dog is acclimated to the weather. If I picked up a dog from Canada or far north at the airport, I would be a HECK of a lot more careful with that dog than my dogs who work and play in the heat and have all their lives. 

We have a HUGE cluster of dog shows here in January each year. About 40 miles north of me.. 12 days of dog shows. TONS of dogs. People bring dogs from all over the country and World because there are majors every day in a BUNCH of breeds. You can Finish a dog here in a few days and it be a champion if you have the right dog. Merlin's father finished in four days at that cluster in 2007. Anyway... Some years it is cool.. Some years it is cold. And some years it is HOT... A couple years back we were pushing 85 in January during the cluster. The Northern Dogs and people suffered. 

That being said.... there are some on this thread that used terms like "no" "never" "to hot period" etc. It is not too hot.. At least for any dog I have owned. None has ever been endangered. 

Even though I said I would not leave my dog with the window 2 inches down. (Kayota's windows I believe based on an example photo were down much farther than that) I still firmly believe her dog was fine for the 15 minutes she was gone. IF I was in a rental car etc and had to use the restroom, I would do it. 

On this last test... I was speaking to the no and never crowd.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I think a big part of the controversy in this discussion was simply based on a lack of information. The original post mentioned 85 degrees and dog with water and "windows down" but indicated the windows were cracked or not fully open like one a dog could jump out of if unsecured. Then it was clarified to windows down enough for Chi to put her head out, which could be around 3-4 inches based on typical Chi. Then it was later clarified that it was later evening so less direct sun and that there was a windshield sunscreen. And then there was a photo of the dog showing a larger window opening that would have been guessed previously. 

Each of those factors made it safer for the dog but it also confused/contradicted the prior responses and made those responses seem more extreme in light of further information. 

But in the end, this whole discussion is based on what is reasonable for JOE AVERAGE to contact the dog's owner over. That person doesn't know if the dog just arrived from Canada or was working in Miami his whole life.

Air flow matters massively. Shade is the other huge component. Actual outside air temperature isn't the biggest part.
When I lived in Nicaragua, there was not a/c in any of the houses but as they were designed to be centered around a courtyard with shade and open windows, it was comfortable in the heat of summer. A modern built house, even in Florida, would be no where near as pleasant because it was designed to have central A/C.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> I think a big part of the controversy in this discussion was simply based on a lack of information. The original post mentioned 85 degrees and dog with water and "windows down" but indicated the windows were cracked or not fully open like one a dog could jump out of if unsecured. Then it was clarified to windows down enough for Chi to put her head out, which could be around 3-4 inches based on typical Chi. Then it was later clarified that it was later evening so less direct sun and that there was a windshield sunscreen. And then there was a photo of the dog showing a larger window opening that would have been guessed previously.
> 
> Each of those factors made it safer for the dog but it also confused/contradicted the prior responses and made those responses seem more extreme in light of further information.
> 
> ...


NOT to pick hairs but the OP never used "windows cracked". Others inserted the term "Cracked".


What got me ramped up when people started saying "no", "never", "too hot" etc. 

I started driving at 16. Since then a dog or dogs has been with me in my vehicle 50 or more percent of the time. and I have and do make stops with them. Do I go to the mall and leave them in the car? No... Well I do not go to the mall but if I did I would not. Nor do I do grocery shopping, longer shopping trips, etc. But do I run in the store and grab a few things? Sure. I am fast in the store, with or without dogs. I have driven halfway across the country with dogs. 

I have YET to endanger a dog by leaving it in the vehicle. And will not be doing it in the future. But the fact is, my dogs are in the car daily. That is how I live. And sooner or later I have to make stops. And will. 

I DO realize dogs die by being left in cars. 
I also realize there are dumb careless people.

But that does not mean responsible people cannot leave a dog in the car.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> NOT to pick hairs but the OP never used "windows cracked". Others inserted the term "Cracked".
> 
> 
> What got me ramped up when people started saying "no", "never", "too hot" etc.
> ...


I know you are careful with your dogs, but would you agree that most likely all of the people who have owned dogs that have died of heatstroke in cars believed their dogs would be fine for the time they were left, and that it wasn't too hot to leave them? That no one left their dog, and thought "Oh, Hell, it's too hot to leave them in there, but I'm gonna do it anyways and they'll probably die".

Would you also agree that you are probably more responsible than the average dog owner?

So given the above, wouldn't it be more prudent to advise people on a dog forum, where there may be thousands of new dog owners looking for info (that aren't even logged in), that it can be deadly to leave dogs in cars when temps are over 80 or so, even with a window cracked? Since the people with dogs that died in cars all thought "It's not that hot", "I'll crack a window and the dog will be fine" "I won't be very long"...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> I know you are careful with your dogs, but would you agree that most likely all of the people who have owned dogs that have died of heatstroke in cars believed their dogs would be fine for the time they were left, and that it wasn't too hot to leave them? That no one left their dog, and thought "Oh, Hell, it's too hot to leave them in there, but I'm gonna do it anyways and they'll probably die".
> 
> Would you also agree that you are probably more responsible than the average dog owner?
> 
> So given the above, wouldn't it be more prudent to advise people on a dog forum, where there may be thousands of new dog owners looking for info (that aren't even logged in), that it can be deadly to leave dogs in cars when temps are over 80 or so, even with a window cracked? Since the people with dogs that died in cars all thought "It's not that hot", "I'll crack a window and the dog will be fine" "I won't be very long"...


More responsible? Maybe... Dogs play a more central part of me life than many folks. That causes me to think of things involving their care and management that many people do not. And not everyone agrees with the choices I make with my dogs. I am super paranoid about some things. Then turn around and do other things that folks deem downright dangerous. My Vet is old school and downright hates the trend in feeding raw diets. I was doing it before the trend started. And he talked until he was blue in the face to me about it. But he gave up. Because he cannot argue with the results I have had. 



I know dogs die in cars. 
And I agree that there are a good number of people that do stupid things and their dogs die...The same thing happens with parents and kids. 

I have never advocated leaving a dog in a car with the window cracked. In any weather. I roll down my windows if I leave my dogs even in cold weather. (cold to us down here anyway). But this thread was NEVER about leaving a dog in the car with the windows cracked. If someone asked me, I would ask them if they wanted to die. The OP's windows were not down as far as I would have liked to see them. I do not feel she endangered her dog. But if she asked me, I would suggest she figures out a to lower the windows more without the dog escaping. 


As far as prudent goes... I never said it was okay to leave a dog in a care at 80 with the window cracked. But in general, I do not believe in scaring people. I believe in giving them realistic information. No and never are not part of realistic information.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> More responsible? Maybe... Dogs play a more central part of me life than many folks. That causes me to think of things involving their care and management that many people do not. And not everyone agrees with the choices I make with my dogs. I am super paranoid about some things. Then turn around and do other things that folks deem downright dangerous. My Vet is old school and downright hates the trend in feeding raw diets. I was doing it before the trend started. And he talked until he was blue in the face to me about it. But he gave up. Because he cannot argue with the results I have had.
> 
> 
> I know dogs die in cars.
> ...


 Do you agree with this statement?

" would you agree that most likely all of the people who have owned dogs that have died of heatstroke in cars believed their dogs would be fine for the time they were left, and that it wasn't too hot to leave them? That no one left their dog, and thought "Oh, Hell, it's too hot to leave them in there, but I'm gonna do it anyways and they'll probably die".
..........


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

spotted nikes said:


> Do you agree with this statement?
> 
> " would you agree that most likely all of the people who have owned dogs that have died of heatstroke in cars believed their dogs would be fine for the time they were left, and that it wasn't too hot to leave them? That no one left their dog, and thought "Oh, Hell, it's too hot to leave them in there, but I'm gonna do it anyways and they'll probably die".
> ..........


I agree with that statement. (not that you asked me...)


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> Do you agree with this statement?
> 
> " would you agree that most likely all of the people who have owned dogs that have died of heatstroke in cars believed their dogs would be fine for the time they were left, and that it wasn't too hot to leave them? That no one left their dog, and thought "Oh, Hell, it's too hot to leave them in there, but I'm gonna do it anyways and they'll probably die".
> ..........


How can I agree to that? That is an assumption. I tend to think that most people that allow their dogs to die in a hot car did not think at all. If they had it should have been obvious that the situation was unsafe. But I do not know that to be fact either maybe people in general do not have the common sense or intelligence we give them credit for having. 

When managing dogs, keeping them safe etc. In most cases coomon sense will trump experience. The bottom. Line is people simply need to think.


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## RCloud (Feb 25, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> How can I agree to that? That is an assumption. I tend to think that most people that allow their dogs to die in a hot car did not think at all. If they had it should have been obvious that the situation was unsafe. But I do not know that to be fact either maybe people in general do not have the common sense or intelligence we give them credit for having.
> 
> When managing dogs, keeping them safe etc. In most cases coomon sense will trump experience. The bottom. Line is people simply need to think.


Exactly. *To short*


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

When surveyed, 80% of people will say they're above average . On any subject and in general. I'm pretty sure that very few people whose dogs died in hot cars think they're stupid or careless or lacking in common sense, and if people just leave a dog in their car without thinking of the temperature I wonder how they remember to feed the dog every day (since, of course, as pointed out by JB in another thread, if you can't keep a dog in heat from getting pregnant you can't remember to feed her either, so obviously if you can't think of the weather I'm guessing it's at least the same). So um yeah. 

I knew a dog who died in the car because the owner was elderly with dementia and forgot the dog was there. She probably should not have even been driving or living alone. But I kinda doubt that applies to most cases. That dog walker almost certainly fancied him/herself as a dog expert. Most people think they're taking the proper precautions to prevent a problem.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> (since, of course, as pointed out by JB in another thread, if you can't keep a dog in heat from getting pregnant you can't remember to feed her either, so obviously if you can't think of the weather I'm guessing it's at least the same).
> 
> .


Good memory... And yes I said that.. And I agree... IF you cannot keep a dog in heat from getting pregnant or make SURE your dog is safe before you leave it in a hot car.. You won't remember to feed the dog...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Eh, I don't know. At least the weather sort of heat is pretty variable - clouds can go in, temperatures can rise, humidity can drop, car engines can die, shade can move, wind can stop.

The reproductive kind of heat doesn't have those outside your control variables.

I'd give people more a pass for a dog in a hot car than somebody not being able to keep a dog from getting pregnant.


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## socorny (Jun 24, 2014)

I know I'm coming into this debate a little late but as a Canadian, I personally would not take the chance with leaving my dog in the car if it is even remotely warm outside. That is if we are leaving our dog for longer then a few minutes. 
If it is a mild winter day or quite dreary/rainy day, that is the ONLY time we would leave her for an extended period of time.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

So for funsies, I decided to cool our silver van down (black, fabric interior) and toss in a digital thermometer. Today's temperature is 74 with a breeze. The van is in partial shade. 

In 10 minutes, the temperature shot up to 94f. In about 20 minutes it was at 105f

Just now I checked it and it's still sitting at 105... 

So yeah, that's perdy hot to me on a fairly mild day.

Edit: the thermometer was in the front seat (where my dog usually sits), shaded.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> So for funsies, I decided to cool our silver van down (black, fabric interior) and toss in a digital thermometer. Today's temperature is 74 with a breeze. The van is in partial shade.
> 
> In 10 minutes, the temperature shot up to 94f. In about 20 minutes it was at 105f
> 
> ...


If it was in the shade what caused it to heat up? You park them in the shade with windows down the interior will equalize with the outside temp. As in my Tuesday example.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Partial shade means partial sun. If some sun is getting in, it's going to still have heat build up.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

CptJack said:


> Partial shade means partial sun. If some sun is getting in, it's going to still have heat build up.


Did not see partial.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> So for funsies, I decided to cool our silver van down (black, fabric interior) and toss in a digital thermometer. Today's temperature is 74 with a breeze. The van is in partial shade.
> 
> In 10 minutes, the temperature shot up to 94f. In about 20 minutes it was at 105f
> 
> ...



And most people would think that 74 was COOL. And many would not think twice about putting a dog in there with the windows cracked.
Lots of dogs die every yr from heatstroke in cars. And the owners THOUGHT they would be fine. That is a HUGE point that NEEDS to be made.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> And most people would think that 74 was COOL. And many would not think twice about putting a dog in there with the windows cracked.
> Lots of dogs die every yr from heatstroke in cars. And the owners THOUGHT they would be fine. That is a HUGE point that NEEDS to be made.



I am going to do another test tomorrow... I tried it today. But it got CLOUDY.... When I came back from lunch, I hung the thermometer the same way. Closed up the Jeep tight... Left it in full sun. When I left at 5:30 it was very cloudy. I do not know how long it was cloudy. But the Jeep was only 110.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am going to do another test tomorrow... I tried it today. But it got CLOUDY.... When I came back from lunch, I hung the thermometer the same way. Closed up the Jeep tight... Left it in full sun. When I left at 5:30 it was very cloudy. I do not know how long it was cloudy. But the Jeep was only 110.


You do realize that a dog left in a closed up vehicle at 110 degrees can die of heatstroke, right? Even though a loose dog could be out in 110 degrees and be ok...

Cases-http://www.redrover.org/mydogiscool/reports


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> You do realize that a dog left in a closed up vehicle at 110 degrees can die of heatstroke, right? Even though a loose dog could be out in 110 degrees and be ok...
> 
> Cases-http://www.redrover.org/mydogiscool/reports


Where did I say I was going to leave a dog in a closed up car at 110?

I am fairly certain that you know, that I am aware of the question you asked...


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Shell said:


> It can be too hot. It will depend on the circumstances, the car, the sun or shade level, how far the windows are down, the wind etc. 85 degrees on the weather news site also doesn't mean 85 degrees everywhere in town, urban heat islands can be several degrees warmer than other areas. Parking lots soak up a lot of heat during the day and stay hotter than a grassy area longer into the evening. So it 85 is the max temperature you (a person, not "you") feels comfortable leaving the dog, it is best to consider than it could be 88 or 89 degrees at the actual place that you (a person, not "you") ends up parked at. And that a short trip can end up longer than expected too.
> 
> Personally, 85 is too hot for me to leave the dogs unless it is either an emergency or it is full dark and I can put the windows down a lot more than just a few inches. (I don't have the type of car and size of dogs that could be set up with crates and fans and shade clothes like the people that do dog sports)
> But I'm basically risk averse when there is minimal potential gain for taking the risk. Chester loves car rides, but he doesn't know he's missing one and he's just as happy with a walk when I get home anyway.
> ...


I am still looking for temps 40-50 over outside temps. 

John


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Where did I say I was going to leave a dog in a closed up car at 110?
> 
> I am fairly certain that you know, that I am aware of the question you asked...


Oh, absolutely, I know you weren't going to leave one closed up. But it was the "Only 110" which seemed dismissive, as if that temp wouldn't hurt a dog, that I wanted clarification from you on. (Since you have made comments about dogs working outside in hot weather.)

And I feel that being a public forum, with readers that may be first time owners, people that are unaware of how/why dog heatstroke and death happens, it would be irresponsible to let readers have the impression that "only 110" would be safe for a dog.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> Oh, absolutely, I know you weren't going to leave one closed up. But it was the "Only 110" which seemed dismissive, as if that temp wouldn't hurt a dog, that I wanted clarification from you on. (Since you have made comments about dogs working outside in hot weather.)
> 
> And I feel that being a public forum, with readers that may be first time owners, people that are unaware of how/why dog heatstroke and death happens, it would be irresponsible to let readers have the impression that "only 110" would be safe for a dog.


As I said I am still looking for the 145 inside the car temps. I seriously doubt that if it was 150 I could open the door and get in immediately. I have never opened the door of a vehicle and had to wait to get in. Yes it has been HOT... But 150? 

As far as dismissive goes... There are two sides of that...
You say I am dismissive. Well I would be apprehensive in cold climates. I do not know what is and is not actually dangerous to me or my dogs. I think I could figure it out with myself. but dogs? They won't tell me what they are feeling. I can observe. But how the hell do I know when their pads are endanger of becoming frost bitten? I know my dogs seem oblivious to 30s and fairly oblivious to 20's. Heck they will run in the water and swim in those temps. But REAL cold? 0 and below? I am clueless. I know when I went to the Canadian Northwest Territories in August I was COLD until I left. 

In heat... That is a different stories. I have years and years of working dogs in heat. I know what I am seeing and know when to go find shade for the dogs, or a pond or a stock tank, etc. 

If I was to go up North, I would want factual information. Not scare tactics. 

And some comments here would be considered scare tactics. 

The problem with scaring someone into keeping safe is sooner or later they figure out the information is incorrect. And then you lose all credibility.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Did not see partial.


Literally half the van was shaded by the house. The other half was in sun.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Literally half the van was shaded by the house. The other half was in sun.


Mine barely got to 110 in Florida from sunrise to after one sitting in full sun with the windows down 2.5 inches. not breeze. 


Not saying it did not happen. Weather is just weird.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am still looking for temps 40-50 over outside temps.
> 
> John


I didn't do those studies and there are many variables obviously, but I can easily see a car in full sun on a blacktop surface going from 85 degree outside temps to 125 degree inside temps in around 2 hours. The more glass, the more greenhouse effect. Different surfaces inside matter. I'd expect that a sunroof actually increases heat in the car when the car is stationary but allowing more direct sunlight. Noon at 90 degrees isn't the same as 7 pm at 90 degrees. 

Note that in most of these studies a "cracked" window is 1.5 inches open. Which seems very minimal to most of us here but is on the other hand really similar to what many people might think a "cracked" vs "partially open" window is. More than that and people might be concerned about a person being able to reach a hand into the car and open the door.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> If I was to go up North, I would want factual information. Not scare tactics.


Part of the problem there would be... there is huge variation. Your dogs are okay working outside in 100F heat, Snowball would probably melt. But Snowball is perfectly happy to go outside in -15C (~5F) and lay on the deck. He knows all he has to do is bark and we'll let him inside, and yet he chooses to lay out there in cold. I mean, outside of the obvious (i.e. Snowball is obviously not built for heat), I think a lot of it is that dogs are adaptive to their climate. 

Dogs give signs of being too cold just like there are signs of them being too hot. I think even if someone hadn't been told those were the signs of a cold dog... dogs that are getting cold LOOK cold. Shivering, sitting down, lifting up paws, wrapping their tail around themselves (if they can) are all signs of a dog being cold. Maybe its just my bias from growing up in a cold climate, but IMO its easier to tell when a dog is getting cold than when it is getting too warm.

For something like frost-bite... Its surprisingly hard to get frost-bite if you're healthy, and you're moving around - it takes really extreme temperatures (like -40C), or prolonged exposure, since frost bite is the result of the tissue actually starting to freeze, although the duration of exposure needed to cause frost bite decreases the colder the temperatures are. It also depends on the surface the dog is walking on; cement is a very good conductor of heat, so the dog's feet will get much colder much faster on cement than on ice or snow, which (as you previously pointed out JB) don't transfer heat well.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Mine barely got to 110 in Florida from sunrise to after one sitting in full sun with the windows down 2.5 inches. not breeze.
> 
> 
> Not saying it did not happen. Weather is just weird.


Also keep in mind that up North we're receiving more concentrated solar radiation during the summer than places further south. The sun is WAY stronger here in the summer than it is in most places that have a hot climate, and I imagine that would have something to do with it.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> Mine barely got to 110 in Florida from sunrise to after one sitting in full sun with the windows down 2.5 inches. not breeze.
> 
> 
> Not saying it did not happen. Weather is just weird.


I literally sat in front of the van outside and waited lol 

Because weather is so sporadic and weird, I'd simply rather not risk it.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> As I said I am still looking for the 145 inside the car temps. I seriously doubt that if it was 150 I could open the door and get in immediately. I have never opened the door of a vehicle and had to wait to get in. Yes it has been HOT... But 150?
> 
> As far as dismissive goes... There are two sides of that...
> You say I am dismissive. Well I would be apprehensive in cold climates. I do not know what is and is not actually dangerous to me or my dogs. I think I could figure it out with myself. but dogs? They won't tell me what they are feeling. I can observe. But how the hell do I know when their pads are endanger of becoming frost bitten? I know my dogs seem oblivious to 30s and fairly oblivious to 20's. Heck they will run in the water and swim in those temps. But REAL cold? 0 and below? I am clueless. I know when I went to the Canadian Northwest Territories in August I was COLD until I left.
> ...


But even knowing it can be sporadic and hard to predict, you are willing to give the average person the responsibility to try to determine what the temp in their car will get up to? The average person that most likely barely passed basic math and science courses? I'd rather tell people that it is risky and dangerous to leave a dog in a car with temps above 70. Even you can't predict with any certainty how hot a car will get in the sun, and you are spending some time actually researching it. The avg pet owner that doesn't spend more than 20 seconds walking out their door with their dog on a leash, and thinking, "it doesn't feel that hot" doesn't have a clue as to the danger and risks.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

gingerkid said:


> Also keep in mind that up North we're receiving more concentrated solar radiation during the summer than places further south. The sun is WAY stronger here in the summer than it is in most places that have a hot climate, and I imagine that would have something to do with it.


Our UV index is MUCH higher in the summer than the winter as well. And according to this, where I live is higher than northern latitudes All year round. 

http://www.epa.gov/sunwise/uvimonth.html

I do not know THAT much about it. I do know that the sun will KILL you down here. I have had seven pre cancers removed from my skin. I hardly know anyone that lives down here that has not had precancers or cancers removed from their skin. I have had two members of my family, die from skin cancer. 

I also know that people from the north, even people that are out in the sun all the time, will get eaten alive by the sun down here.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> But even knowing it can be sporadic and hard to predict, you are willing to give the average person the responsibility to try to determine what the temp in their car will get up to? The average person that most likely barely passed basic math and science courses? I'd rather tell people that it is risky and dangerous to leave a dog in a car with temps above 70. Even you can't predict with any certainty how hot a car will get in the sun, and you are spending some time actually researching it. The avg pet owner that doesn't spend more than 20 seconds walking out their door with their dog on a leash, and thinking, "it doesn't feel that hot" doesn't have a clue as to the danger and risks.


The average person is going to do what they want. 

And no I cannot exactly predict exact temps. But I can determine a safe place and safe way to leave my dog in my vehicle. And while I do not leave my dogs long, in the scenario I left my vehicle the other day at work, IF something happened and I was delayed, they would have been fine.

I suppose the difference is... Your method tells them do NOT do it. Mine.. I would tell them how...


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

spotted nikes said:


> But even knowing it can be sporadic and hard to predict, you are willing to give the average person the responsibility to try to determine what the temp in their car will get up to? The average person that most likely barely passed basic math and science courses? I'd rather tell people that it is risky and dangerous to leave a dog in a car with temps above 70. Even you can't predict with any certainty how hot a car will get in the sun, and you are spending some time actually researching it. The avg pet owner that doesn't spend more than 20 seconds walking out their door with their dog on a leash, and thinking, "it doesn't feel that hot" doesn't have a clue as to the danger and risks.


Considering this is my thread and i am for all intents and purposes an average person i feel you are implying some interesting things about me here.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

Stop taking everything so personally. You're not an "average" dog owner, trust me.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

Shell said:


> I didn't do those studies and there are many variables obviously, but I can easily see a car in full sun on a blacktop surface going from 85 degree outside temps to 125 degree inside temps in around 2 hours. The more glass, the more greenhouse effect. Different surfaces inside matter. I'd expect that a sunroof actually increases heat in the car when the car is stationary but allowing more direct sunlight. Noon at 90 degrees isn't the same as 7 pm at 90 degrees.
> 
> Note that in most of these studies a "cracked" window is 1.5 inches open. Which seems very minimal to most of us here but is on the other hand really similar to what many people might think a "cracked" vs "partially open" window is. More than that and people might be concerned about a person being able to reach a hand into the car and open the door.


You can open it with my car but the alarm goes off first of all and second im not sure roxie would let someone have their arm in there long... lol


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

This morning when I got to work I parked on dark pavement in full sun. It is supposed to be sunny all day today. Iput the therm back on the steering wheel and shut the car up tight it topped 90 before ten o clock. By noon it was 94. That is when I went to lunch. Inside the vehicle 115. HOT yes but not the 40-50 Above outside temps. Came back from lunch put the therm back up car locked up tight. It is currently 98 with a heat index of 135. 

By the way those that talked about heat warnings to the public. This is an especially hot day and heat index of 135. No warnings.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I don't have a thermometer on me but I am sitting in my friends black truck as I type this. It is 80 outside and we're sitting in the truck with the doors wide open, in full sun. IT IS BLISTERING HOT. It feels hotter than the van did last night.

Oh and it is breezy.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

HA! I found it. Really High temps.

Understand at this point I am not trying to prove anything. Other than I do not think inside temps of a car can go over 40 degrees over outside tems. 

130!


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> HA! I found it. Really High temps.
> 
> Understand at this point I am not trying to prove anything. Other than I do not think inside temps of a car can go over 40 degrees over outside tems.
> 
> 130!


Now.. The back story... About 8 this morning. I parked in full sun on dark pavement. Temps went over 90 before 10 am. At noon, I ran home for lunch. Two miles. the vehicle sat in my driveway a bit. Then I drove back to work. I was back at 12:30. When I got back, I had not run enough to cool it down. When I got back the therm read about 90. A little over maybe. I checked on it throughout the afternoon. When I left at 5 to go home it had FINALLY got to 130. 

By one pm it was 98 dipped to 99 for a while but was still 98 when I went home. Heat index was 135 to 140. UV index was off the charts. NO clouds or rain. 

In 4.5 hours the best I got was 32 degrees over outside temps.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I don't have a thermometer on me but I am sitting in my friends black truck as I type this. It is 80 outside and we're sitting in the truck with the doors wide open, in full sun. IT IS BLISTERING HOT. It feels hotter than the van did last night.
> 
> Oh and it is breezy.


I am not picking at you or on you.. But when I read this at work, I laughed so hard my co worker came over and wanted to see what was funny. Then he laughed. 

That is the first time either of us ever heard the term "blistering Hot" in reference to 80 degree weather. And he is from NYC. Now I understand when people from up north laugh when I say it is freezing at 45.

80 is ideal to us and what the tourists LOVE. I doubt I would even go swimming when it is 80 without a wetsuit.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

JB:" In 4.5 hours the best I got was 32 degrees over outside temps"

You could hit a 40 degree differential if you have a dark interior in your car and work it so that the sun's rays hit the front window on the car at 90 degrees, windows up, no window tinting, tight seals on doors and windows, no breeze. Because a car has little thermal mass, it can heat up rapidly. . . an hour is more than enough. Dark pavement probably decreases the temp differential cause it raises the ambient temperature more than it raises the temperature in the car . . . though it DOES raise the temperature in the car. The nasty thing about the car's energy balance is the rapid heating. People tend to underestimate how hot it can get in 15 minutes, and then delay a little past 15 minutes. Opening windows helps less than you might expect.

Here's a reference to a published scientific study some Stanford MD's did. . . http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/116/1/e109.full . .. they were worried about kids getting killed in cars.

"Results. Regardless of the outside ambient temperature, the rate of temperature rise inside the vehicle was not significantly different. The average mean increase was 3.2°F per 5-minute interval, with 80% of the temperature rise occurring during the first 30 minutes. The final temperature of the vehicle depended on the starting ambient temperature, but even at the coolest ambient temperature, internal temperatures reached 117°F. *On average, there was an ∼40°F increase in internal temperature for ambient temperatures spanning 72 to 96°F. Cracking windows open did not decrease the rate of temperature rise in the vehicle (closed: 3.4°F per 5 minutes; opened: 3.1°F per 5 minutes or the final maximum internal temperature."*


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sandgrubber said:


> JB:" In 4.5 hours the best I got was 32 degrees over outside temps"
> 
> You could hit a 40 degree differential if you have a dark interior in your car and work it so that the sun's rays hit the front window on the car at 90 degrees, windows up, no window tinting, tight seals on doors and windows, no breeze. Because a car has little thermal mass, it can heat up rapidly. . . an hour is more than enough. Dark pavement probably decreases the temp differential cause it raises the ambient temperature more than it raises the temperature in the car . . . though it DOES raise the temperature in the car. The nasty thing about the car's energy balance is the rapid heating. People tend to underestimate how hot it can get in 15 minutes, and then delay a little past 15 minutes. Opening windows helps less than you might expect.
> 
> ...


Yea a dark interior would have helped. And I moved the car at lunch. I had the sun pointing more or less at the windshield...

Not that it means anything but I will be messing with this for weeks most likely.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I am not picking at you or on you.. But when I read this at work, I laughed so hard my co worker came over and wanted to see what was funny. Then he laughed.
> 
> That is the first time either of us ever heard the term "blistering Hot" in reference to 80 degree weather. And he is from NYC. Now I understand when people from up north laugh when I say it is freezing at 45.
> 
> 80 is ideal to us and what the tourists LOVE. I doubt I would even go swimming when it is 80 without a wetsuit.


Inside the truck was not 80... 80 is not blistering hot. The truck was 110+ and even with the doors open and outside being 80 WITH A BREEZE, it wasn't cooling the interior. 

But what does a northerner like me know about hot apparently.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I wonder what impact a dog or two makes on the temperatures inside of a car. I wonder if their panting changes the humidity or impacts the increase in heat.

I know that in the winter, panting dogs cause the windows of my van to frost over on the inside while I drive if the temps are well below zero. 

This would be interesting to understand but impossible to test for safely after the temperature reaches a certain point. Obviously.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

trainingjunkie said:


> I wonder what impact a dog or two makes on the temperatures inside of a car. I wonder if their panting changes the humidity or impacts the increase in heat.
> 
> I know that in the winter, panting dogs cause the windows of my van to frost over on the inside while I drive if the temps are well below zero.
> 
> This would be interesting to understand but impossible to test for safely after the temperature reaches a certain point. Obviously.


Unless someone built a dog-simulating robot...


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

The interior of my car is light. I sat in it the other day to run to the store at 80 degrees... full sun, I have no car roof. And I was fine. And then Rox hopped in and she was fine, didn't even start panting. Went to the store, was a Farm Fresh and I just got a soda so she was probably only in there for a couple minutes, 5 max. Still little to no panting.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

gingerkid said:


> Unless someone built a dog-simulating robot...


Perhaps JB could take this on?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Inside the truck was not 80... 80 is not blistering hot. The truck was 110+ and even with the doors open and outside being 80 WITH A BREEZE, it wasn't cooling the interior.
> 
> But what does a northerner like me know about hot apparently.


I was not picking at you..... Sitting in the car or not. 

But I thought you said you did not have a thermometer? 

That being said, I left my truck closed up at 8 am this morning. It hit 90 before ten am. Truck was parked in full sun. At noon I came out to find this temp.....









115 from a closed up vehicle for four hours, full sun, on dark pavement. Starting temperature roughly 82. At least two hours above 90. 
Ontario averages a UV index of 6 in June. Ours averages 9-11.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

trainingjunkie said:


> Perhaps JB could take this on?


I could build one... I keep playing around with this... who knows..... Next thing you know I will be laying awake at night thinking of new tests.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

JohnnyBandit said:


> I was not picking at you..... Sitting in the car or not.
> 
> But I thought you said you did not have a thermometer?
> 
> ...


I will add to this... All the playing around I have done with this in the last week. I cannot get 110 with the windows down.....


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

gingerkid said:


> Unless someone built a dog-simulating robot...


From the energy system perspective, the dog is the equivalent of a few quarts to several gallons of warm water -- depending on the size of the dog.

p.s. The clouding of windows happens because dog breath is near 100% RH at dog body temperature (~100 F). This easily gets the colder air in the car over saturated, and the windows are an energetically convenient place for the excess moisture to condense. (See, eg., Craig Bohen's book, _Clouds in a Glass of Beer_). Interesting related physics trivia . . . did you ever go for a walk and notice that you can see your dog's breath but not your own? That's cause the dog has a higher body temp and its breath has a higher water vapor content).


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

The graph shows car heating data for a black sedan w. dark interior. In most cases, you can get away with 15 minutes. Unless you're absent minded or distractible.
The map shows child fatalities from heatstroke from being left in cars in 2003.
It's probably a little harder to kill a dog than a kid (higher body temperature), but I wouldn't want to try that experiment.
Source: http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/116/1/e109.full

JB . . . pickup truck is probably harder to get hot because the window angles are relatively vertical. 
When I had students doing this experiment, a few of them were able to talk car dealers into letting them use new cars on the car lot so they could control for color. I wish I had saved their papers.

p.s. on second thought, probably easier to kill a dog, especially a brachy breed. They can't sweat.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

trainingjunkie said:


> I wonder what impact a dog or two makes on the temperatures inside of a car. I wonder if their panting changes the humidity or impacts the increase in heat.
> 
> I know that in the winter, panting dogs cause the windows of my van to frost over on the inside while I drive if the temps are well below zero.
> 
> This would be interesting to understand but impossible to test for safely after the temperature reaches a certain point. Obviously.


On a day when it is warm enough to cause panting for a particular dog, one could place the dog inside a garaged car that has been inside all day with the windows down.

Seal it up without the dog the first time and take readings for one or two hours to see what happens to the temps without a dog. They should be about the same or just slightly hotter or cooler.

Then place the dog inside with a remote thermometer. Take readings frequently and remove the dog after an hour or until it gets too hot inside the fully sealed car for safety.

Also maintain an extra thermometer just outside the car so you can see what the ambient temps are. Know what the difference in calibration is between the two before starting this experiment.

At the end, subtract the temperature differential achieved without a dog from temperature differential readings of car with dog. Then you get that one dog's effect on that particular car.

Doing this inside a garage keeps temps stable on the outside and usually keeps it from getting too hot for the dog.

There is just no way I will be able to do that myself in the next week. I still haven't finished arranging all my data from last week's experiment.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

JohnnyBandit said:


> When I left at 5 to go home it had FINALLY got to 130.


The 5 pm time probably has more to do with sun angles than duration. To understand the dynamics, think about placement of solar collectors. Up to 30 degrees off normal (ie sun hits glass at 90 degree angle) you have good transmission of energy and the collector is pretty efficient. Past 30 degrees you get increasing reflection and absorption by the glass.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sandgrubber said:


> View attachment 158433
> View attachment 158441
> 
> The graph shows car heating data for a black sedan w. dark interior. In most cases, you can get away with 15 minutes. Unless you're absent minded or distractible.
> ...


I get you on the window thing. 

I would say most dogs are hardier than a young child.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

sandgrubber said:


> The 5 pm time probably has more to do with sun angles than duration. To understand the dynamics, think about placement of solar collectors. Up to 30 degrees off normal (ie sun hits glass at 90 degree angle) you have good transmission of energy and the collector is pretty efficient. Past 30 degrees you get increasing reflection and absorption by the glass.


I get this as well but the vehicle was in the sun from 8-12 and then from 12:30-5.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> I am not picking at you or on you.. But when I read this at work, I laughed so hard my co worker came over and wanted to see what was funny. Then he laughed.
> 
> That is the first time either of us ever heard the term "blistering Hot" in reference to 80 degree weather. And he is from NYC. Now I understand when people from up north laugh when I say it is freezing at 45.
> 
> 80 is ideal to us and what the tourists LOVE. I doubt I would even go swimming when it is 80 without a wetsuit.





> Inside the truck was not 80... 80 is not blistering hot. The truck was 110+ and even with the doors open and outside being 80 WITH A BREEZE, it wasn't cooling the interior.
> 
> But what does a northerner like me know about hot apparently.





> JB . . . pickup truck is probably harder to get hot because the window angles are relatively vertical.


His thermometer is probably broken.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

So Cavalier said:


> His thermometer is probably broken.


Nope works fine.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm gonna state that I was just in Florida a couple weeks ago (and have been there many times in the past). I know how the heat is down there compared to here.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I'm gonna state that I was just in Florida a couple weeks ago (and have been there many times in the past). I know how the heat is down there compared to here.


Okay....

Today was my Saturday in the Office. From 8:45 to 12:10 my vehicle sat on a dark paved lot in full sun. It was 79 at 8:30 this morning. It topped 90 at 10 am. Two front windows down. It was 92 at Noon.

This was the temp in my car when I left.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I'm gonna try this too because I'm curious now. I know there have been some times when I couldn't even get in the car and had to open the doors, turn on the a/c, and wait a few minutes. Other days that seem the same and it's barely hot in there. And I'm going to Florida on Thursday so maybe I'll take my thermometer and leave it in the rental car in the Disney parking lot . I love these kinds of experiments.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> I'm gonna try this too because I'm curious now. I know there have been some times when I couldn't even get in the car and had to open the doors, turn on the a/c, and wait a few minutes. Other days that seem the same and it's barely hot in there. And I'm going to Florida on Thursday so maybe I'll take my thermometer and leave it in the rental car in the Disney parking lot . I love these kinds of experiments.


Disney parking lot all day, windows up. Next week? It will be hot. You will probably get 130 plus. Unless we get a lot of rain. Most of next week has almost guaranteed rain. Anywhere from 80 to 100 percent chance every day of thunderstorms. Hopefully for your vacation they will be our late afternoon summer pattern storms.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Bleh, yeah, I know July is not exactly the best time for a Florida vacation but my parents have a reunion in Orlando every year, always the 4th of July weekend, so that's what we're stuck with. We'll feel right at home, though, since it's been raining like crazy around here lately. I think 14 inches this month? It's insane.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

Willowy said:


> Bleh, yeah, I know July is not exactly the best time for a Florida vacation but my parents have a reunion in Orlando every year, always the 4th of July weekend, so that's what we're stuck with. We'll feel right at home, though, since it's been raining like crazy around here lately. I think 14 inches this month? It's insane.



I looked at the weather for you. They are talking about late afternoon and evening rain. So that is the good news. But if it rains as much as they are talking you may see more than 14 inches in 3 or 4 days. A couple of weeks ago it did the same thing.


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## Pomom (Apr 9, 2014)

I have a fear of someone "rescuing" my dogs when they are fine, coming back to the car and finding them gone. So I understand but my solution? I only leave the dogs in the car if I can leave myself or someone else with them. This keeps them safe from overheating AND do-gooders. If I am alone, I simply don't leave them.


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## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Yesterday I was out running errands, came home, parked the car in the half-shade, came back 2 hrs later and it was 124 in the car. Outside temp? 82.


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## BellaPup (Jul 7, 2007)

I noticed this past week (this thread has stuck in my head for some reason), that when I parked my car in the MIDDLE of the parking lot at work, the outside temp is almost 10 degrees higher than if I park on the other side of the lot which has some grass and trees nearby. Unfortunately I couldn't get the spot directly under the tree, so not in any shade - but just the closer proximity to trees and grass seems to make a huge difference. I didn't have an inside therm, but the difference in the numbers of the outside temp were pretty significant. 

Middle of parking lot - temp outside the car was 99F
Next day (which was a few degrees warmer) *closer* to trees & grass but not in shade - temp outside the car 91F
Start driving down the road with some shade & trees - outside temp showed 89F

Now, an average grocery store parking lot has 2 acres of hot black pavement and concrete buildings. Maybe some pathetic bushes or trees here and there, but nothing helpful.

So, maybe that's where JB's results are skewed? I always seem to see greenery in his pics outside the car. That greenery seems to make a big difference.


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## Little Wise Owl (Nov 12, 2011)

While we were running errands the other day, I decided to take the temperature.

Outside temperature was 75-77, breezy and partially cloudy. Humidity was 64%. We parked the van in the middle of a hospital parking lot, no shade (aside from partial cloud cover). This was the inside temperature with AC before we set out.









Sitting inside for only 5 minutes, on the seat. Already up to 74









Visual of the van and cloud cover (note, the windows were cracked 3-4 inches)









We set out for a bit, got back to this:









Not a huge increase but still quite a jump on a pretty mild day. 

Later we parked to go shopping for about an hour (3pm-4pm) and came out to this (from 68-75 internal car temps):

*The sun had come out almost completely and the wind picked up further.









So, there's my experiment of the week. Not deadly temperatures but just shows that even a relatively "cool" day of 75 with a breeze can get hotter than you'd think inside a lightly coloured vehicle with windows cracked. I would not leave a brachy breed or heavy coated dog in a vehicle at this temp.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

..lit was 103 in our agility class yesterday. It was only 90 outside but it's a translucent building so even with the fan or doors open it heats up. Massively uncomfortable and I watched her close, but with water she was fine- even running recalls and being active. 

Not that I'd knowing lock any dog up in a 105 degree car, but I'm starting to think my worry about her heat tolerance was radically overstated.


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