# Why do Papillons look so different?



## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

For example, most of you know Laurelin's Mia. Mia has a short snout and her legs dont seem really long. My Pap, Dexter, looks like he has a longer snout and like he is taller, or longer legs. 

Are their different "types" of Paps? Is it normal for a breed to have so many different "looks"? Not necessarily coat color, but the structure of the dog...ie height, head shape, snout length, ear width etc? 

Here is my Dexter:
















Here is link to pics of Laurelin's Paps. I dont know anything about copyright law, so I'm not to copy her pics. lol 

http://www.dogforums.com/dog-pictures-forum/115674-actual-pictures.html

Thoughts? Opinions?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Mia's muzzle is actually too long for the breed standard.  Breed standard would be muzzle that is 1/3rd the length of the skull. She's also pretty leggy comparatively, imo.

1. How old is Dexter? He looks young. Head type as a youngster is generally not as 'together' meaning that their heads often don't look as round and muzzle looks longer. Also, it takes 3-4 years for them to fill in and grow a full coat.

In case you're curious, here's Mia at 1 year old (ish):




























Even younger- 5-6 months (see what I mean about the head?)










7 months



















2. Was he bred by a breeder that shows? There is a big difference between pet bred and show bred looks-wise in the breed.

3. Yep, the breed has a lot of variety compared to some. Head type is very subjective in the breed other than the muzzle being 1/3rd of the skull length. Some breeders like pronounced stops and bulkier heads, others like very refined heads. There are some (slight) differences between type. English lines, American lines, Swedish/Finnish types. 

Variation isn't a bad thing at all.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Just out of curiosity, what is it called, or how do you describe when the top of the head comes down at a more dramatic angle (like Mia), vs. when the top of the head blends more evenly with the muzzle (like Dexter, and not a pap, but Sydney as well). I've just wondered how to articulate the difference in head shape in the past.


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## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

Thank you Laurelin! I was hoping that you wouldnt mind me comparing to Mia. In my mind, Mia is perfectly how a Pap should look. Maybe it's just my absolute LOVE of the tri-colors..lol, maybe it's that I'm new to owning a dog..who knows? I love my black and white Dex, obviously, but the first Pap that I ever met, about 10 years ago, was a tri and his image is stuck in my head. 

Dexter will be 8 months on Sep 29th. So, he is still a puppy. Thank you for posting the younger pics of Mia. In the last one, where she is running, her body looks exactly like Dex. Her snout does look longer, her coat looks identical to his. This gives me hope...lol. I really cant wait to see what his full coat will look like. His ear fringe is coming along really well. And now he's got some reddish brown on the tips of the fringe nearest his neck. 

He came from a pet breeder, she does not show and breeds only for pets homes.

What are the differences in American, English, Swedish, etc? And how is the head different in pet and show breeders?

Sorry for all the questions. You are my Papillon Mentor! Surprise!!


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

I've noticed the variation, too. I think it's a lot of fun. I've noticed that Mumble's nose seems... pointier than a lot of Papillons'.










But it might just be the angles of other Papillon photos.

He also seems to have longer legs, but I don't know if that's just that he hasn't finished growing out his coat, where other Papillons have, so their fluff hides some of their leg/extends their body.




















I actually really prefer his long legs and pointy nose, so it all works out for me.


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## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

Mumble is so beautiful!! How old is he? It looks like he has more fringe than Dexter, but not as much as Mia. 

I dont think his nose looks pointy. But I do see what you mean about long legs. I think Dex's legs look like Mumble's. Maybe they will look shorter once they grow into their full coat?


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

Mumble's about 1 year, 8 months old. He does have a lot of fringe, but the coat on his body seems to be growing out more slowly.

His legs probably will look a bit shorter when his coat grows out, but he might always look leggy. I love his little stick legs, so I'm not bothered either way.

This past spring, my parents apparently watched part of the Westminster show on TV, and saw the Paps there. They talked to me afterward, asking why Mumble was so tall, and why did he look so different? I looked at the videos and the dogs didn't seem any shorter than Mumble (or at least not much), comparing them to their handlers, but they did have much fuller coats. It took me forever to convince my parents that was probably the reason they looked shorter. For a while they were certain that I had a freak on my hands (in good fun, of course).


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## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

Mumble is FARRR from a freak!! lol He's beautiful!! I love Dex's long legs too. He's just so cute! He came from a breeder that isnt very...good, I guess? I've found in hindsight, that once she sells you a dog, that's it. She wont return calls or even answer her phone! There were several things that were odd. So, for all I know, I could have a Pap/Chi mix. I'm pretty confident that he is pure Papillon, though. His littermate went to a family that found me on here, thru pics and contacted me!! And after seeing his sis, they are both pure paps. I guess the variations just throw me off.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

kafkabeetle said:


> Just out of curiosity, what is it called, or how do you describe when the top of the head comes down at a more dramatic angle (like Mia), vs. when the top of the head blends more evenly with the muzzle (like Dexter, and not a pap, but Sydney as well). I've just wondered how to articulate the difference in head shape in the past.


It's called the stop. So a chihuahua (ex) has a very pronounced stop and a sheltie has much less of a stop. And a lab is in between those.

I'm going to post more once I get home about the other questions.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I just wanted to get on and say that I love seeing these beautiful Paps and their photos. They truly are all gorgeous.

SOB


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## shellbeme (Sep 9, 2010)

Continue please.. more pics  

I love those papillons!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Catdancer said:


> Thank you Laurelin! I was hoping that you wouldnt mind me comparing to Mia. In my mind, Mia is perfectly how a Pap should look. Maybe it's just my absolute LOVE of the tri-colors..lol, maybe it's that I'm new to owning a dog..who knows? I love my black and white Dex, obviously, but the first Pap that I ever met, about 10 years ago, was a tri and his image is stuck in my head.


I love the tris but I've always wanted a black and white! I don't know any breeders that have black and whites unfortunately. Mia's breeder has a lot of the hound tris like her.



> Dexter will be 8 months on Sep 29th. So, he is still a puppy. Thank you for posting the younger pics of Mia. In the last one, where she is running, her body looks exactly like Dex. Her snout does look longer, her coat looks identical to his. This gives me hope...lol. I really cant wait to see what his full coat will look like. His ear fringe is coming along really well. And now he's got some reddish brown on the tips of the fringe nearest his neck.
> 
> He came from a pet breeder, she does not show and breeds only for pets homes.


It takes time for coat to come in fully. Mia's three now so obviously she has a lot more coat than she did at 8 months. 

As far as pet versus show, I find show lines tend to be more uniform but have seen nice pet bred papillons type-wise and I know some show bred paps that have thrown some very out of standard pups. 



> What are the differences in American, English, Swedish, etc? And how is the head different in pet and show breeders?


It's very subtle differences and depends on who you ask. In general american lines aren't as nailed down type-wise as others. The Swedish/Finnish/Japanese dogs are winning big right now as they tend to be the typiest dogs with the most fringe and prettiest heads. They've been crossing them in a lot lately as many of the top specials are those lines/going that direction type-wise. English line dogs are often a little bit bulkier and quite often very hairy. They do interbreed lineages all the time nowadays.

But it's all just generalizations.



> Sorry for all the questions. You are my Papillon Mentor! Surprise!!


I don't mind questions at all but I'm no expert either by a long shot. 



Avery said:


> This past spring, my parents apparently watched part of the Westminster show on TV, and saw the Paps there. They talked to me afterward, asking why Mumble was so tall, and why did he look so different? I looked at the videos and the dogs didn't seem any shorter than Mumble (or at least not much), comparing them to their handlers, but they did have much fuller coats. It took me forever to convince my parents that was probably the reason they looked shorter. For a while they were certain that I had a freak on my hands (in good fun, of course).


As in a lot of show breeds, there's a tendency to exaggerate. And as in a lot of breeds there is the words 'slightly longer than tall' in the breed standard. In showing I have noticed in many breeds people think 'slightly longer than tall' means significantly longer than tall. I have seen an increasing number of short legged papillons. It's still not as bad as some show line border collies. I've seen several of those that look corgi. There's a couple big winning papillons I know off the top of my head that I think are way too short in the leg.



spanielorbust said:


> I just wanted to get on and say that I love seeing these beautiful Paps and their photos. They truly are all gorgeous.
> 
> SOB


Mia says thank you! 

To make things more confusing, these two are sisters:

In their prime









Now:


roses by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr


7 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

Obviously don't look too much alike, lol


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

and just because I found this pic and am awing over Summer (gah she can't be 8!) Here is 4 year old Summer:










And Mia at 3:








[/url]
18 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr[/IMG]


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

There is quite a bit of variation in the breed, which I agree is a good thing. These are all show papillons I've met:

Crystal has a more pronounced stop:



















T-Rex:










Saddle:










Lady:










Emma:










Lucky:










Dexter:










I prefer a more pronounced stop (Dexter has just about my favorite look), but not to the point where the eyes are bulgy.

I agree that a full coat can make the papillon appear shorter than it is, but I also have seen some short-legged papillons lately and have not been impressed.


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## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

Oh I love seeing the differences in Paps!! Crantastic, those paps all have a pronounced stop. I like it. It makes their snouts look shorter. lol 

I managed to get some pics of Dexter last night. It was VERY difficult since he is NEVER still, lol. I took some before his bath and after his bath. I *tried* to get different angles.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Here is Beau, who is an AKC champion. I pulled younger photos of him. I think he's around 3 or so in these.


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## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

Here is Dexter modeling his new winter coat. It's very "Rock N Roll"...lol



















Here he is in his Halloween costume. Dexter is a pirate and my 3 year old son is a SHARK! lol 










And of course, since the cat was hanging around, we had to put the pirate costume on him too! Poor Diego.


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

Well, this is how Legend looks. He definitely has a thicker coat than a lot of papillons I've seen (I think he actually has a double coat) and he is a bit lacking in ear fringe, and he is also a little pudgy, but otherwise I think he looks good. My mom always says he is so much handsomer than the papillons she's met, but it may just be because she doesn't want to offend me/him 





































Laurelin, who is/are the breeder(s) you got your paps from (especially Mia)? They're all such pretty dogs! I originally wanted a tricolor and Mia is just perfect. I'm thinking that after Legend I'll probably wind up getting another and while I love Legend and his breeder I'm checking around for other breeder just so I will have options (though he is only 9 so I'm thinking/hoping it'll be many years in the future). I think I'd like for my next pap not to have such a thick coat.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Daenerys, my friend has for a long time acquired her dogs from breeders - retired showdogs. She had a duel AKC and CKC champion (and her daughter as well) that had coats much more full than legend . . . and also a propensity for putting on weight (after they were spayed). They retained a single coat - but it just got very full and fluffy. 

The breeder of these two is a wonderful breeder and the girls are gorgeous paps with fantastic temperaments - but with a spay coat that was a bit much for care. Looking at Legend's head type I have to wonder if they are related.

SOB


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


> Daenerys, my friend has for a long time acquired her dogs from breeders - retired showdogs. She had a duel AKC and CKC champion (and her daughter as well) that had coats much more full than legend . . . and also a propensity for putting on weight (after they were spayed). They retained a single coat - but it just got very full and fluffy.
> 
> The breeder of these two is a wonderful breeder and the girls are gorgeous paps with fantastic temperaments - but with a spay coat that was a bit much for care. Looking at Legend's head type I have to wonder if they are related.
> 
> SOB


Legend's breeder lived in Virginia at the time I acquired him (and Legend is also a retired show dog of sorts...he did some showing but never got his Ch. title) but she has since moved to NC.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

I really like Legend (okay, I love all the dogs in this thread). I love his fluff and his pointy ears.

I think Laurelin mentioned one of their dogs developed a wooly coat after he was neutered?


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Arbeitsheim (Washington) and Sunbelt are the predominant affixes in the two girls with great temperaments but fluffy spay coats that I know - the older linebred to Sunbelt's Fixed Rate. 

SOB


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

Avery said:


> I think Laurelin mentioned one of their dogs developed a wooly coat after he was neutered?


Maybe this is the case with Legend? I wouldn't know because he was a year old when I got him and the breeder had him neutered a couple of weeks before we got him, so I don't know how his coat was before the neuter.


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## jdudziak (Sep 19, 2012)

So here are some pictures of Bandit. He is adopted but they said he is 1.

I wish the lighting had been better but I still love this pic



















All of my Babies together










So with Bandit the Black on his back is coming in a light tan now. Do you think that this will show up when his full coat comes in?


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## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

Aww... Bandit is so cute!!! His little mask just makes me want to hug and squeeze and kiss his nose and make stupid nonsensical noises. haha!!

As to his coat...I have no idea. My Dex is black and white and now he's got some reddish brown coming in on his fringe. He's 8 months and it just started changing color recently. Their coat takes 2 to 3 years to fully come in, and it's my guess that their coats can change quite a bit in that time.


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## jdudziak (Sep 19, 2012)

I think I would need to hug, squeeze and make stupid noises with all the dogs on this thread but I think I do that to most dogs.  I really think Dexter is adorable. That last pic you posted of him he has this mischievious look on his face. In looking at the pics I actually think Papillons get cuter the older they get. Just my opinion based on pics I never actually had a puppy.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

Why did I torture myself and open this thread. I should have known there'd be pics of beautiful papillons in here...

*sigh* Just rekindled my desire for one of these elegant butterfly dogs with a zest for life and daring attitudes.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

You would love one, KBLover. Most of the papillons I've met just love to learn. I really should teach Crystal more than I have. She picks up new tricks in less than ten repetitions, sometimes less than five. I enjoy playing games with her, too, like hiding her ball in increasingly harder-to-get-to places and watching her problem-solve and get it.

Crystal's brother Dipper and crazy Paige are going to have pups this winter. They should be gorgeous, friendly, and lively. Just in case anyone was wondering.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I LOVE that expression on Crystal's face. She just LOOKS ready for something to go down LOL 

Ears perked forward like a funnel - so alert and focused. 

*sigh*


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

That one's actually her brother Dipper! They look a lot alike, though. I took her to visit once and kept mixing them up unless I looked closely.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I had a person come up to me this weekend while I was unpacking my car at the park (it's an event when I go set up a few jumps there). She had her dogs with me and said 'Wow, they are so incredibly attentive!' They really are just such fun dogs to train and live with. Their little world revolves around you. Whatever you want to do, that sounds like fun to them. Want to teach them? Okay! sounds great. I love all dogs and love training with some other breeds but I always leave being very thankful of my two and their eagerness to work with me.

Yeah Beau has a bad coat now that he is neutered. His pics are on the first page at three. Now...


DSC_1299 by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

I HATE it. lol 

The others aren't bad at all, especially Mia and Summer. Rose is hairy but it's not bad like Beau's.


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## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

Is it normal for the coats of male paps to get "wooly" or whatever after they are neutered? My plan is to have Dex neutered when he is 1 year old.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I don't think they all do. One of my friends has a deaf neutered male, and his coat is normal. And this is another of Crystal's brothers, Trek, who was neutered young:



















His coat looks a bit thicker, but not unmanageable.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

Mumble is neutered, and his coat is still thin and silky.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Most Papillons that I've known get a bit fluffier when spayed or neutered. The two girls that I know whose spay coat came as a surprise to my friend are mother and daughter. She had a few Papillons prior get a bit fully in their coat when neutered, but not like these two. Hands down, though, they have the BEST temperaments I've known on any small dog so the coat care is considered worth it for these girls.










I have a mixed breed spaniel that got fluffy as well when she was spayed. I think it just happens in some dogs. I understand it is called a 'dandelion' coat when it happens in Setters.

SOB


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I like that fluffy look - maybe because I'm just used to looking at my walking cotton ball LOL


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


>


Wow, that's crazy!! They're as fluffy as Poms, haha! I alway joke with Legend that he looks half Pom after he gets fluff dried 

I'm thinking it must have been his neuter that caused him to be fluffy. That makes me more content with it. If his breeder is still breeding in like 7 years or so I'll probably just get my next one from her again because my little Legend has a wonderful personality.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


>


Wow! Those are some fluffy dogs. My sister saw them and said "Those aren't Papillons, they're pillows!"
I still think they're super cute.


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

I was just googling about and found the oldest girls half brother . . . in Australia!.










http://people.aapt.net.au/quinvale/STANLEYS PAGE may 2010 Don.html

. . . and her nephew is a Phalene (the son of the dog above). Notice how the setting and angle can make a dog look quite different to even itself as this boy's stop looks more angled in one photo than the other.



















I happen to be one that really loves variation in a breed. I think maybe, though, this Papillon girl has taken it a bit too far.










http://amazinvideo.blogspot.ca/2011/07/amazing-unlikely-but-awesome-animal.html

http://people.aapt.net.au/quinvale/PapPag.html

http://people.aapt.net.au/quinvale/Paps males may 2010 Don.html

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=53303

SOB


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

spanielorbust said:


> I happen to be one that really loves variation in a breed. I think maybe, though, this Papillon girl has taken it a bit too far.


What a lovely color! Maybe they'll eventually incorporate it into the standard.


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## Daenerys (Jul 30, 2011)

So I have some questions for you guys. How much are your papillons "one-person" dogs? 

My Legend is definitely my shadow. He will follow me from room to room, sleep with me at night, and I am the only person he will allow to take things from him. He will guard his chew bone with his life from everyone else but he will step right back if I come up to take it from him. I'm the only one who can pick him up. I remember several years ago I had a friend over in high school and after multiple warnings that he will bite her if she picks him up, my friend tried anyway and, just as I warned her he would, he bit her. I know that's kind of bad but I literally warned her about it like 5 times and she did it anyways, so what more can one do? My mom said that during my freshman year of college when I had to leave him at home he was absolutely devastated and would pace the halls at night because I wasn't there for him to sleep with. BUT, he is also an attention lover and whenever people come over to our house he is all over them, trying to get as much petting as he can from them. Of course momma's pets are best, but other people are almost as good.  So how much are your paps bonded to one person?


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## Catdancer (Apr 11, 2012)

Dexter is our family dog, but he has the strongest bond with me. He adores my hubs and our 3 and 13 year old kids and everyone who comes to visit, but it's very plain to see that he is attached the strongest to me. I had always wanted a Pap and honestly I consider him "my" dog, even though he's the family dog. I call him my second son..lol. When I am home he is glued to me and he rarely leaves my side. Paps really are "velcro" dogs...they stick.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Crystal likes everyone in my family, but she is definitely my dog. If I am home, no matter what I'm doing, she's right by me. She's fine being left with my mom when I go to work or on vacation, and is fine being crated and left alone; she doesn't suffer from separation anxiety or anything. But she definitely sticks by me -- she doesn't even want to go for a walk with anyone else if I'm staying at the house. When I take a shower, she lays outside the bathroom door and waits. If someone else gives her a command, she'll glance at me before doing it just to make sure I want her to.

It seems to me that most papillons have their one person. Most of the papillon breeders in the Maritimes are friends, and during shows they help each other out by taking another breeder's dog into the ring if two of that breeder's dogs have to be in at the same time. The papillons are often either trying to look at or pull towards their own breeder while in there!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Mia is a one person dog, Summer is a love everyone dog. The others are in between. They each have people they really like but also love their whole family. I just get accused of making dogs needy since they whine when i'm around (all of them). 

Mia example: I had a party to go to after work so my dad dropped by to let the dogs out. Mia went looking for me the entire time. 

Summer's favorite person is probably my youngest sister. 

But they both follow me around 24/7 if I'm home. They're needy little dogs. Both of mine don't like it when I work the other in agility either and leave them in their crate.


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## Avery (Nov 22, 2011)

For a while Mumble had a preference for me over my partner, because he was busier with school than I was so I spent more time with Mumble. Nowadays he likes being with either of us. He's usually with one of us when we're at home, but he'll sometimes go visit my Mother- or Father-in-law for a while.

When we're at my parents's house, though, it's a different story. He's still "my" dog, but my dad is his favorite person, because my dad can't say no to petting him, or feeding him. He keeps canned food in the fridge just for Mumble, and I mostly feed kibble, so naturally Mumble is in love. If we're at their house, he's almost always with my dad, no matter where I am. He also like my sister a lot and will spend a lot of time with her. If my mom is watching something on TV in her bedroom he might curl up with her as well.

He's also pretty friendly with my brothers- and sisters-in-law, and most of my nieces and nephew, as well as house guests, but he only likes people that he's more familiar with to pick him up (me, Daniel, my parents & sister, Daniel's parents).


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## Nicolette1 (Aug 15, 2015)

I love seeing everyone's Pappi's


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## CiElBie (Mar 5, 2016)

Laurelin
How does someone find a pap like Mia? LOL. 

She sounds like such a high drive dog from everything you have said! 
Is that normal for a pap? 
Are there certain lines? Or just luck? 

Avery
Mumble is gorgeous! <3


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## Aussie27 (Sep 25, 2010)

CiElBie said:


> Laurelin
> How does someone find a pap like Mia? LOL.
> 
> She sounds like such a high drive dog from everything you have said!
> ...


I don't think Laurelin comes onto DF a lot anymore, but I'll give her a poke.

As far as I know, Mia is a bit of an 'anomaly' in terms of her drive and personality... as unfortunate as that is for all of us who love Mia; Mia was actually the papillon who made me choose the breed because she just defied all those toy dog stereotypes.  But based on my discussions with Laurelin, a lot of papillons do seem to have a very spastic, happy-go-lucky personality. I would imagine you could find a high drive dog depending on the lines, but as a toy breed, I imagine there aren't many breeders choosing to breed for that. Papillons are common in agility, so I imagine that as time goes on, there might be an emergence of more sport-oriented breeders versus show breeders.

Cali isn't what I would call high drive but she is definitely more driven than most toy dogs I've heard of and she is pretty high energy as well; I would say a lot of it was just luck and how I've raised her... I've definitely encouraged a playful side. I always say she is a bit of a split between Laurelin's Mia and Summer: the craziness and ball obsession of Mia paired with the people loving, happy, bubbly personality of Summer.


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