# Tug vs Food Rewards in Agility



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The more I learn about agility, the more I see that "serious" agility people really prefer tug as a reward over food. Can someone explain this to me? I think I can see some of the benefits, but I'd like to hear from experienced agility folks.

Also, is a strong tug necessary for a dog who participates in casual agility? Or is it really only an issue for those who want to be very competitive? Can you train new behaviors with toys? Or is it more for rewarding already known behaviors? 

Just curious since I'd like to try agility some day, but at this point I don't have any intention of trialing. I do use toys as a reward occasionally (ask for sit or down before throwing a fetch toy, ask for wait or drop with a tug toy, etc) but not for any real training.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

elrohwen said:


> The more I learn about agility, the more I see that "serious" agility people really prefer tug as a reward over food. Can someone explain this to me? I think I can see some of the benefits, but I'd like to hear from experienced agility folks.


It's good to have both. That said, I have just food for both my dogs. Mia likes tennis balls but at class gets too distracted. You don't NEED a good tug but there are situations where using a toy reward is easier.

1. It keeps the dog more engaged easier, imo. If you're transporting the dog from the crate to the field the tug can work as a way to lead the dog and keep the dog focused on you/your game. You can use food too or do a collar grab but I don't think it's as effective.

2. There's certainly times when you want to be able to send the dog ahead of you after the reward. You can do targetting but if the dog drives to the target and misses the obstacle, they could snatch the reward before you get a chance to get there and pull it up. 

3. You can also aim a thrown reward so as the dog goes over the jump, the reward is tossed ahead of them. There is less stopping and going than with food where the dog will stop and wait for you to reward. Toys can build speed/keep running more continuous.

4. It's a great motivator for a lot of dogs. It's very fun and playing with your dog as a reward will help build drive and enthusiasm. 

Just off the top of my head. Flip side is there are times when using food is probably better than a toy.

I've been building toy drive with my two. Another way to do things is use a food toy with your dog if you want the dog to drive for a toy. I've really built up my food toy so both mine will chase that. I throw the food toy as a reward for them even though they don't really 'tug'. Even Summer who has zero natural toy drive will play with the toy now and I can reward with that. But it's been a process.

Nextdog is going to tug more. Mia had a tug as a pup but I really didn't play it much with her and now it's gone.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Biggest advantage for me is that tug keeps my dogs "higher." If my dogs believe that the agility field is a big fetch/tug playground, they are more motivated to play hard. They find the work more exciting and are willing to put forth more effort. There is something sort of sedating about food. I takes some of the drive out of the game.

I use both food and toys. However, for my staffy bull who used to have drive issues in competition, I work with toys about 90% of the time. It has helped teach her to deeply love the game. For my over-aroused Amstaff, toys better prepare us for training at the arousal level that we will trial in.

Food is fine, but toys (in my opinion) are better. It might also be that dogs who have developed a keen sense of play drive are just plain more likely to be successful at agility...? In the end, agility really is just a fun game of "chase the momma" with a few rules thrown in for good measure.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

My dogs work HARD for food. And they're both seemingly bottomless pits. I wish I had great toy drive but I don't and they do fine. I still work on building it and making it a game. But my dogs both have a high drive to please and to work with me which makes motivating them easy. Mia is very action oriented so she would be rewarded enough just by getting to play.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Lucy would tug at home but was not the least bit interested in a tug at training. I use treats but also made myself a food toy. It is a fuzzy thing that I put food in and close. I have used it mainly on running the channel in the weaves and she will race to get it and throw it all over the place till I get there to give her the treats out of it. When we start back training, I am going to use it to get her to run on at the jumps instead of always looking at me between the jumps. We have two Saturdays coming up in April that we can train on the equipment in the indoor arena. Really looking forward to it, then the Instructor is taking her equipment home and will train at her place which is only a few minutes from where I live which is nice.

We have had rain yesterday and a little today so the snow is finally almost gone, then we can use our own equipment.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

I think it depends on what motivates your dog! All of my dogs are motivated by different rewards. Meatballs work for my 2 little maltese, frisbee for Rio (rough collie boy) tennis balls or food for Savannah (rough collie girl).


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

I like to use the best of both worlds. Soro is very toy motivated but EVEN more food motivated. So we use one of these:









Back in the day we ONLY used it for agility and I stuffed it with things like fresh tuna out of the can. He went WILD. I agree with trainingjunkie that tugging keeps the dog's energy level higher. It was especially important for me to have a high value reward when I used to take agility because classes were outside in duck poop infested grass. Single treat rewards just weren't going to cut it unless I wanted to shout commands the entire night. Honestly, it's not that he learned to value tug more than food, but rather 'normal' food rewards were too short lived to hold his attention. With this toy, the entire process of chasing down the tug , tugging, releasing, and (the worst!) waiting for me to open the velcro, was it's own reward even before he got to the food. I hope that makes sense!


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Denali likes tugging but it's not a great reward for her and does nothing to improve her performances or focus. When I do things with her to keep her "high" she doesn't run nearly as well as when she's calm and focused. It's taken me a long time to realize and then to accept that she does not run well when she's amped up. She might be a little faster, but speed is no good without control and focus. She ends up with zoomies, back jumping and spazzing out. I find it's a lot better for both of us to just be calm and relaxed. I'm sure some dogs would be too slow and shut down and even less focused with a calm and relaxed style of preparing, but it works best for us.

What works for Denali- which may in part be due to breed tendencies- is that after a run I tell her "go get the bunnies!!!!!!" and let her take off at top speed, charging toward the other end of the field where the rabbits hang out on the other side of the fence. Simply getting to run free is best for her, usually followed by a trip to the water bucket so she can bite at the hose water and play in the water. That's FAR better to her than tugging.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

It's good to be able to use both.

I've heard someone say that toys build speed and motivation, while food builds precision. To utilise this in training, you would shape the behaviour you want with 5-10 treats, play break to keep the dogs arousal level high, then do another 5-10 treats.

Or you'd reward the dog in the correct position with treats, then release to a toy. 

Toys are also great for working through distractions, because when the dog's arousal level is high, it takes less notice of distractions. It's also hard for a dog to be scared of something while it's playing.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Canyx said:


> I like to use the best of both worlds. Soro is very toy motivated but EVEN more food motivated. So we use one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love Katie's Bumpers tug and treat! Use them to teach sends and stays. I just need to find one in little dog size that is not fire hose fabric.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

I agree if you don't have balance you lose the dog. Have to tell you Sibe you and Denali are a great team. It is no often one sees a husky in agility let alone a successful team! I had one husky in my class and she never had the focus that Denali has. Love to watch your videos.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Thanks for all the great responses! This was fun to read.

The main reason, in my mind, to use toys over treats was keeping the dog very active and energized, so it looks like I wasn't off base with that.

Watson will chase and pick up anything I throw for him (he doesn't always bring it back, yet) so I think toys would work well as a motivator for him when we get to agility.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

My dog is not tug/toy oriented in the least. Food works great for her. Yes, there are times when I wish I could toss a toy for a reward, but if that doesn't work for the dog in question...it just doesn't work.



> My dogs work HARD for food. And they're both seemingly bottomless pits. I wish I had great toy drive but I don't and they do fine.


Sums it up for me....my dog is getting close to getting her C-ATCH in CPE....


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I train the beginning behaviors with food (Recon's working weaves and 2o2o right now with clicker/food to get the behavior) and then once they know it, I switch to a toy to build the drive and speed. 

Also, I've been training under a great agililty trainer and she made me notice that when I was having Recon work with food he would pull into me and focus too much on me for direction and not drive forward. With the toy (we used a stuffed Zanie bone for tugging) he has it thrown for him to drive out so he doesn't focus on me, but once he grabs the toy he runs back to play tug and it really engages him. I haven't seen food engage a dog to bond/work for you like toys do. Some are over the top and just WANT THE FOOD NOW, but I haven't actually witnessed (I know they exist) high drive for food that is still controlled.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Definitely a disadvantage of using just food is it can create too much handler focus. Denali was VERY handler focused (she's always been very focused as well as being a treat fiend) but we've done a lot of sending and distance work which is really helpful, and she prefers to have her space now and will stress if I'm running too close to her. Really wish she liked tugging! Toys just aren't right for her for agility training. Even if I throw a toy she chases it but doesn't pick it up or do anything with it. All treats and "Get the bunnies!" and "go get a drink!" for her.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

Lo works for toys at home, but at class she won't even touch one. But she is very very food motivated and we manage just fine


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

Since we started the foundation Agility with a clicker and treating, Lucy was too focused on me. As soon as I started only treating her out of the treat bag that I threw, she quit coming to me for the treats. I have just done the channel weaves as she was not a year old yet so did not want her to do much weaving yet, I would take the treat bag and lay it down at the end of the channel, then go back and turn her loose as I am not great at throwing in a straight line and sometimes caused her to duck out when it went crooked. By the time our classes were over she was getting a pretty good wiggle in and never tried to duck out at all. She can run to the bag but can't get the treat till I open the bag so if she did duck out, she would not have gotten a treat.


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I think the tug is stressed as a good motivator for agility dogs because many agility dogs (like border collies, for example) tend to be motivated more by toys than by food. I say use whatever works best for your dog and your situation.

When I first started agility, I needed a reward that would keep my dog calm because she was already just one step away from being over threshold. So I chose low value treats like cheerios and kibble.

As she gained some composure, I switched to higher-value treats like salmon treats and cheese.

Once I was sure that she was performing because she loved the agility itself, rather than just for the reward, then I switched to toys. After a typical run now, she gets one or two tosses of a tennis ball, and then I'll trade the ball for a treat. Occasionally, I'll use our trainer as a reward (he dotes on her while she kisses him).

She enjoys a good tug and is plenty enthusiastic about it, but I've never used it as a reward, so she doesn't view it that way. I'm sure I could morph tugging into a reward for agility, but I don't really see the need to do that for a dog who's already motivated by just about anything.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

To get past the handler focus of a food motivated dog, you can use a target with food on it. But this means you either have to be near the target to throw the food down when the dog gets it right, or you have to have a really solid NRM so the dog doesn't go for the food if he gets it wrong.

Obi will tug, but he's more food motivated, so I've used a target a lot with him, or I get him to get a ball (he liked balls more than tugging) and then he brings it back to me and trades it for food. We also work a lot of focus forward, which is where the dog should focus on where he's going before he's released, not stare at the handler. So if you're doing say, jump grids, you put the target or toy down, have the dog in a sit, and then only release the dog to the target/toy when he's looking at it. He will never be released while he's staring at the handler. 

The reason you get handler focus when you use food, is because the food is on the handler, and the dog will look to where he expects reinforcement to come from. So if you just get the food off the handler, it shouldn't be an issue. If the dog expects reinforcement at the target, he will focus on the target, not the handler.


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

We have mostly trained with food, but I started using a treat ball so I could throw it at the end of the weaves to increase her drive. But lately I have started her tugging some (with a tug toy that holds food with Velcro that she can open). I don't need to rev my girl up, she's plenty fast! But this weekend I realized that what tug right before we go in does for us, is increase her engagement with me, decrease her distractions, and the most important thing - it releases some of the stress she is feeling.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lil_fuzzy said:


> To get past the handler focus of a food motivated dog, you can use a target with food on it. But this means you either have to be near the target to throw the food down when the dog gets it right, or you have to have a really solid NRM so the dog doesn't go for the food if he gets it wrong.
> 
> Obi will tug, but he's more food motivated, so I've used a target a lot with him, or I get him to get a ball (he liked balls more than tugging) and then he brings it back to me and trades it for food. We also work a lot of focus forward, which is where the dog should focus on where he's going before he's released, not stare at the handler. So if you're doing say, jump grids, you put the target or toy down, have the dog in a sit, and then only release the dog to the target/toy when he's looking at it. He will never be released while he's staring at the handler.
> 
> The reason you get handler focus when you use food, is because the food is on the handler, and the dog will look to where he expects reinforcement to come from. So if you just get the food off the handler, it shouldn't be an issue. If the dog expects reinforcement at the target, he will focus on the target, not the handler.


For one, Wally would like to have a word with you about it being hard to be scared while playing. Wally has "being scared" down pat, unfortunately. He can be playing with me...and still anxious as hell about whatever.

But at least this post sorta answered the first question that enters my head whenever I hear a "this or that?" type question - why does it matter, outside of what turns your dog on? Seems like it creates the handler-focus instead of goal-focus, and you gave ideas on how to negate that drawback.

I mean, Wally is INSANE about food. There has yet to be anything he will not do for hamburger, raw, oven-cooked, or, if you want him to be psychotic "TELLMEWHATYOUNEEDMETODONOWSOICANGETSOMEHAMBRUGERZRZRZDZDZSSS!!!111!!!1!1" mode - use grilled hamburger - especially medium-rare.

So, given that kind of food drive, why would I NOT want to tap it to accomplish something as difficult as agility, especially knowing he's going to be initially VERY uncertain about any of the obstacles, shaping it with grilled hamburger the whole time? Nothing cuts through fear than the smell of beef for him.

Should we ever get that far, I will definitely remember to bring the targeting in play. The "if I do it right, I'll get glorious BEEF!" being put into his head gets the drive going. 

Use what I have to do what I need/want to accomplish, you know?


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## CrazyK9DogTraining (Apr 6, 2013)

When I trained my girlie, I used food/tennis balls. She recently ''learnt'' to tug and I've tried to get her to tug at shows which is beginning to work and gets her all excitable


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

I really think it's whatever works best for you and your dog. The only reason I'm working on tug as a reward with Kimma is so she can have a more immediate reward at the end of a course at a trial. She gets tons of food, but I have to walk out of the ring and back to my bag for that, obviously. A martingale tug leash would be right there so I can reward her immediately. But if that never comes to fruition, then that's fine. She LOVES food, though, so training her to like tug using food rewards has been going pretty well.


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## So Cavalier (Jul 23, 2010)

> To get past the handler focus of a food motivated dog, you can use a target with food on it. But this means you either have to be near the target to throw the food down when the dog gets it right, or you have to have a really solid NRM so the dog doesn't go for the food if he gets it wrong. ......The reason you get handler focus when you use food, is because the food is on the handler, and the dog will look to where he expects reinforcement to come from. So if you just get the food off the handler, it shouldn't be an issue. If the dog expects reinforcement at the target, he will focus on the target, not the handler.


I have a Treat Minder and it works great in these types of situations. I found it especially useful for contact work. One problem I had initially with the Treat Minder was that my dog would run straight to it if she saw me lay it down. We solved that by having my trainer place it when she was paying attention to her......I just tried to find a link on line for the Treat Minder....I can't find any. I guess it has been discontinued....bummer. The only thing I can find is the bigger Manners Minder. The device I have is small....it fits in my bag and easy to handle. Glad I bought two!


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> I train the beginning behaviors with food (Recon's working weaves and 2o2o right now with clicker/food to get the behavior) and then once they know it, I switch to a toy to build the drive and speed.


This is my game plan with Ocean. He is becoming pretty proficient with the obstacles and he's really starting to get handling. He's always been more handler focused than obstacle focus until recently when I've started to introduce toys for rewards. He is really good at catching things while moving...so I will chuck a tug at him, he'll snatch it from the air, and then bring it to me for tugging. I would like to start using tugs to reward a good start line stay with a good lead out on my end. I am starting to work on throwing the toy behind him and releasing him backwards for a good stay. 

Lars on the other hand...toys were not the way to go. He didn't have any issue with being motivated and I spent a large amount of time trying to calm him down where he could have a clear head. I used a lot of food to reward. Tugging sent him into the stratosphere. And...Lars would NEVER bring back the toy if I threw it. He would grab it from the ground and then take off with it...and charging around the ring with me trying to get him to come back. One of my instructors nicknamed him "Lars, party of one."


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

KBLover said:


> For one, Wally would like to have a word with you about it being hard to be scared while playing. Wally has "being scared" down pat, unfortunately. He can be playing with me...and still anxious as hell about whatever.
> 
> But at least this post sorta answered the first question that enters my head whenever I hear a "this or that?" type question - why does it matter, outside of what turns your dog on? Seems like it creates the handler-focus instead of goal-focus, and you gave ideas on how to negate that drawback.
> 
> ...



I get what you're saying, and maybe for very anxious dogs the tugging wouldn't work as a way to desensitise them. But for a normal dog who is simply worried about something, like a weird looking object or strange sounds, tugging with them is an excellent way to change their state of mind and thus desensitise them.

I use food where a lot of people would use tugging too, because that's what motivates Obi more than playing. But I've worked on transferring the value of food into his toys, simply because there are times when it's more convenient to use a toy. For instance, I get lots of drive and speed if I throw treats for Obi to chase. He LOVES it. But at agility class where we train grass, I can't do that, it would take too long for him to locate the treat in the grass for each repetition. I can use a target, but it's the chase he loves. So if he will chase a ball, that would be ideal.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I use a rip n tug ball. Build drive up for that then stuff treats in there and throw it like you would a toy. They chase then get their food.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I get what you're saying, and maybe for very anxious dogs the tugging wouldn't work as a way to desensitise them. But for a normal dog who is simply worried about something, like a weird looking object or strange sounds, tugging with them is an excellent way to change their state of mind and thus desensitise them.
> 
> I use food where a lot of people would use tugging too, because that's what motivates Obi more than playing. But I've worked on transferring the value of food into his toys, simply because there are times when it's more convenient to use a toy. For instance, I get lots of drive and speed if I throw treats for Obi to chase. He LOVES it. But at agility class where we train grass, I can't do that, it would take too long for him to locate the treat in the grass for each repetition. I can use a target, but it's the chase he loves. So if he will chase a ball, that would be ideal.



Wally loves to chase. He'll go running after balls, his toys, etc, but when anxious about something in the distance, he's clearly distracted, but still doing it and wanting to (let alone how close we'll be to the obstacles). And if the object is near the thing he's afraid of, it would take longer for him to get the object (because he's trying to creep up to it, stick his neck out, etc). 

Only time he really tugs is if he's highly wound up without a care in the world. And it took a LONG time to get to that point to where even then he'll want to tug (he'd often rather do something else), so it wasn't a "natural" thing like it seems to be for a lot of dogs. 

Right now, I have to focus on changing "I'm NOT going near that...thing" to "I don't like it, but the reward is awesome so I'll do it" then hopefully "well, that wasn't so bad after all" and then he'll like it. The path of least resistance for me is to use his highest desire (food) with high value rewards (beef or pastries).


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## samshine (Mar 11, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I use a rip n tug ball. Build drive up for that then stuff treats in there and throw it like you would a toy. They chase then get their food.


Just what I was going to say! http://www.amazon.com/Premier-Rip-Tug-Lotus-Small/dp/B006QMYS9K Comes in three sizes. I think my dog is even more motivated for this ball than food, because the act of opening it up makes her feel clever and resourceful. I think dogs really can feel proud of themselves.


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