# Feeding raw to pregnant and nursing females.



## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

Been thinking about this. As it soon will be a year since my dogs eat raw, would be pretty logical to keep feeding raw to a pregnant and nursing female. But the thing that makes me worry is eclampsia. 2 years ago I took courses which are obligate in my country if you want to breed dogs or cats, and they told that 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after whelp female shouldn't be eating raw meat because it increases eclampsia risk. Doesn't sound logical, who cooks meat for pregnant wolfs?
So any opinions on this?

If I don't find anything trustworthy I probably will just switch her to some puppy kibble when she will be 5 weeks pregnant, but I really wouldn't want to do so.


----------



## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

Xeph feeds raw, hopefully she can chime in on how she handled it for her two litters, or you could pm her. I'm sure there are other breeders here who feed raw too, just not sure of the others.


----------



## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

Thank you. Just found that there is a group on facebook about raw feeding, it has more than 5000, there should be something about this, or at least breeders who feed raw.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Pasarella said:


> Been thinking about this. As it soon will be a year since my dogs eat raw, would be pretty logical to keep feeding raw to a pregnant and nursing female. But the thing that makes me worry is eclampsia. 2 years ago I took courses which are obligate in my country if you want to breed dogs or cats, and they told that 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after whelp female shouldn't be eating raw meat because it increases eclampsia risk. Doesn't sound logical, *who cooks meat for pregnant wolfs*?
> So any opinions on this?
> 
> If I don't find anything trustworthy I probably will just switch her to some puppy kibble when she will be 5 weeks pregnant, but I really wouldn't want to do so.


Do you know what the risk of eclampsia in wolves is compared to dogs? Have there been any studies comparing the risk of eclampsia in raw-fed wolves with non-raw-fed wolves? Without this information, you can't really compare wolves in the wild to domesticated dogs. However, I also do not know if there have actually been any studies of eclampsia risk in pregnant raw-fed dogs vs. pregnant kibble-fed dogs; as far as I am aware there is very little research using raw foods at all (at least in English-language journals), so I'd be surprised if there was anything on the risk of raw and a specific medical condition... It might be an inference based on certain other knowns, rather than drawn directly from a study, as I believe calcium plays a role in eclampsia risk, but I don't know enough about whether there is a difference in calcium levels in raw-fed dogs vs. kibble fed, or the other factors that might be associated with canine eclampsia.

If feeding raw increases the risk of eclampsia, that is not the same as "all bitches who are fed raw are going to get eclampsia", and there are other factors to consider as well. How easily does your dog switch foods, do you plan to feed the puppies raw to start or will they start on puppy kibble (so you'd be buying the kibble anyway), etc. Personally, I would go back an look at the sources cited by the course you took, and then look in the literature myself, but disease causation and risk is my chosen field.


----------



## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

You are right. They didn't tell that every female fed raw meat, will get eclampsia. It was more about known experience here in Latvia, and knowing how much people know about raw feeding here... could as well be those people doing it wrong. I actually have the same teacher in the courses I'm taking now. She is also a veterinarian so I guess I will just ask about the causes of it. I know it is caused from calcium, but I should know how it really works. I don't think there should be any difference if I would just continue to feed 10% of bone, during all the pregnancy. Every kibble contains calcium any ways.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

Well, calcium is necessary - the baby puppies need it to develop bones. It has more to do with the exact amount of calcium (either too much or too little, not sure which), rather than getting any calcium at all. But surely the veterinarian will be able to give you more info on it.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

When I was breeding Labradors (in Australia) I fed raw right through with no problems. So did lots of other breeders.
One of my vets objected to use of raw chicken due to the danger of Salmonella. But the vet got ignored. Chicken was our #1 raw ingredient. Never had a problem.
Fatty raw is especially good for nursing bitches due to the high amount of fat in canine milk.
I did have a minor problem with one bitch who took it on herself to eat the raw stuff and regurgitate it for the pups. I think that's a little dangerous with chicken. The puppies liked it, though.
From what I have read, raw that includes a goodly amount of bone is a great way to keep the calcium balance right, and it doesn't pose any risk of eclampsia. Happy to be corrected if this is wrong. Note, I had large litters. Average of nine pups over 11 litters. All mothers had loads of milk. I did have some trouble with mastitis, but never eclampsia.


----------



## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I thought about that too, only one raw fed bitch from puppy hood through whelping nursing and all the pups started and raised on raw.. I had calcium all prepared sitting near just in case and a vet on stand by all night long.. didn't need either of them. It does make you feel better when your aware and prepared so that is my best advice... plan and be prepared for what can happen and be thankful you didn't need it.. the only thing I did was be mindful of not too much liver and I did notice she really wanted to dig into in a larger amount was beef kidney... All the pups were fine, none of them had any issue with pano during growth on raw (both parent lines were known to have pups with really bad cases in several generations) but her pups never had any problems with it.. so that was a positive of feeding raw.


----------



## Pasarella (May 30, 2013)

Thank you. Found what I need on the raw group in FB I mentioned above. I think I will just go with it and hope everything will go well. It tells to cut off liver for first 5 weeks and cut off bone to minimum at two last weeks of pregnancy.


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Don't feed raw during and after pregnancy if you don't know exactly what you are doing - it's better to feed a mix of kibble and raw instead.

This is because oversupply of calcium DURING pregnancy "turns off" the body's ability to produce calcium when it is needed during whelping, and this is the cause of many c-sections because there is simply not enough calcium in the blood for the uterine muscles to contract. What you want to do is feed a food with 1:1 Calcium/Phosphorus ratio throughout pregnancy.

DURING and AFTER whelping, however, they need LOTS and LOTS of calcium so as to prevent eclampsia. Get calcium tablets (calcium citrate is best) from the drugstore, and feed 1000-2000mg every few hours, more if your bitch is looking restless, off-colour and is panting way too much.

My Lyra had to be pumped with lots of calcium after her first litter, I think I went through 2 entire bottles of calcium citrate. But luckily she never got eclampsia. If you would like to know more, feel free to PM me. I recently had another litter from Lyra and all went well with minimal calcium supplementation although she had more puppies this time around.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

lucidity said:


> Don't feed raw during and after pregnancy if you don't know exactly what you are doing - it's better to feed a mix of kibble and raw instead.
> 
> This is because oversupply of calcium DURING pregnancy "turns off" the body's ability to produce calcium when it is needed during whelping, and this is the cause of many c-sections because there is simply not enough calcium in the blood for the uterine muscles to contract. What you want to do is feed a food with 1:1 Calcium/Phosphorus ratio throughout pregnancy.
> 
> ...


This directly contradicts what I was told in the years I was breeding dogs. I had larger dogs . . . not as prone to eclampsia . . . but was told that raw feeding, particularly based on chicken frames, provided a good Ca ratio, and that if minerals from bone were in excess, the bitch would simply excrete them. Here's someone giving the sort of advice I got:
http://www.felsteadgundogs.com/rearing puppies on raw food.html

I was also warned off giving any calcium supplement prior to whelping.

I'm not saying you're wrong or I am right. Just wondering where your information came from. 
Note raw can mean a lot of things. A raw diet based on chicken frames is very heavy on bone. One based on meat scraps isn't. Whatever the answer, I'd wager it depends greatly on what sort of raw diet you feed.

Btw. here's a good article on Ca ratios in raw diets.
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/bone-food-values-for-raw-feeding-dogs/


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I have no idea which part of my post are you referring to?? I was telling her NOT to feed too much calcium DURING pregnancy (prior to whelping), which is exactly what you said. 

My source is from a huge breeders group on Facebook which has 60+ vets and repro vets on it, as well as thousands of experienced breeders that have helped me save many puppies through the years. 

To the OP, if you are interested in joining the group, PM me and I can help add you to the group.

ETA: I also said only not to feed raw unless you know what you are doing - too many people just "wing it" without really knowing the correct ratios and then their bitches have problems whelping.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

lucidity said:


> I have no idea which part of my post are you referring to?? I was telling her NOT to feed too much calcium DURING pregnancy (prior to whelping), which is exactly what you said.


I question your initial statement: "Don't feed raw during and after pregnancy if you don't know *exactly* what you are doing - it's better to feed a mix of kibble and raw instead. "
I especially question the use of the word "exactly". No one knows exactly what they're doing in dog nutrition. Jeez. You only need to know, generally, to avoid things that throw off the Ca balance . . . and that bone-rich is good, meat with little bone is a problem. 
You state: " I was telling her NOT to feed too much calcium DURING pregnancy (prior to whelping), which is exactly what you said. " That is not exactly what I said, and your statement is ambiguous. 
My understanding is that too much synthetic calcium prior to whelping, especially in the weeks immediately prior to whelping, may cause the bitch's metabolic system to detect "lots of calcium" and thus fail to release calcium as needed in whelping and nursing. However, diets that are Ca rich due to feeding a lot of bone (with good Ca ratios) throughout gestation have no such problem.

Don't use the word 'exactly' unless it is exactly what you mean.


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I have no time to debate semantics with you. 

To the OP, if you are still interested, PM me and I'll help you get onto the Repro group on Facebook. I have had lots of help from vets and breeders there. They have been more helpful to me than my own vet.


----------



## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

lucidity said:


> I have no time to debate semantics with you. .


Semantics? Exactly is not an ambiguous term. You use it like small child uses glitter. If you have superior sources, why require a PM. Share your sources. Sounds to me like you have not time to think before speaking your opinion.


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

I believe I said unless you know exactly what you are doing. 

Never did I say unless you know exactly the content of minerals and vitamins etc in the food you are feeding. 

There is a difference. At least to me. And there is absolutely no need to be rude. I don't understand why people feel the need to be rude when they disagree with something someone says? 

It has to be a PM because it's a closed FB group and only members can sponsor others to join. And OP will have to add me on Facebook first. Is that clear enough? I'm not trying to hide anything.


----------



## lucidity (Nov 10, 2009)

Also, English isn't my first language. I was born and raised in Asia, where I now live. I speak 4other languages so as you can probably guess, I can't use the same words in the same way you do.


----------



## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

For those of you who are arguing, I found this study that evaluated the nutritional content of some raw diets, which suggests that some raw diets may have as much as 2.5 times the recommended amount of calcium.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=22005436

ETA: The same study was also presented here: https://www.waltham.com/dyn/_assets/_pdfs/winss/WINSS2010Proceedings.pdf#page=24


----------

