# "Designer dogs".



## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Noticed a lot of these "designer dog breeders" lately? I'm sure you have. In the media, pet stores and on the internet and such. To name a few, the Golden Doodle, Labradoodle, Cockerpoo, Yorkipoo, Puggle....etc. People are actually breeding these dogs on purpose, and charging hundreds and even thousands of dollars for them. They are not breeds, they are not hybrids (a hybrid by definition is a cross species, not a cross breed of the same species.....ex...donkey/horse, lion/tiger), and they not new and trendy. They are MUTTS, no matter how many ways you look at it. "Breeders" of these dogs have one thing in mind.....PROFIT.....$$$ signs, adding to the "demand" of the unsuspecting and under educated (in this aspect) public. These mixes and many more have been showing up in our pounds and shelters for YEARS! Think about it, instead of buying one of these dogs from a "designer breeder", give the dogs at your local shelter, or humane society another chance at life. Beware of breeders that allow the puppies to leave the litter at 5 and 6 weeks of age (which is common in the "designer dog/BYB world"). It is unacceptable for any dog to be let go any earlier than 8 weeks. It is key for them to gain necessary socialization and learning skills. Also watch for false health guarentees, these "breeders" are notorious for that. Beware of a "designer breeder" saying you can register the pups. Mixed breeds CANNOT be registered by the American or Canadian Kennel Clubs. Not by that any means registration with these clubs are a guarentee you still won't be purchasing a purebred from a BYB, check that pedigree! What I am saying is that these kennel clubs will not register mutts. Anyone giving a false impression that a pup they sell can be registered with these clubs when they cannot is a federal offense and punishable by law (at least here in Canada, and is stated specifically in the criminal code....*I'll hunt down that link if anyone is interested in viewing it*). Even with purebred dogs, the litter owners themselves HAVE to register the pups. The kennel clubs will not allow you to do it yourself with copies of the parents pedigree's. You should be given a registration form from the breeder sent from the kennel club with the dam and sires registration numbers, litter number and owners signature that the pup is to be transferred directly to the new owner (whether it be limited or full registration). 

There are over 150 recognized breeds with the American and Canadian kennel clubs, I am sure you can find one of them to suit, if you cannot find a purebred you like, you can help out the dog overpopulation by bringing a wonderful rescue into your home. 

I am by any stretch of the imagination saying mutts cannot be wonderful, loyal, loving companions (I've owned some awesome mutts too, they were rescues). But how many more of these wonderful dogs do you want to hear about and see being euthanized every day? Don't by into it, and know you you are not adding to the problem, you are part of the solution.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Excellent post !!

It sounds like you have tighter laws in Canada than in the U.S. I don't think there are any laws in the U.S. regarding false claims about being able to register mutts, and it's definitely not illegal here to fail to register purebreds.

I don't think people realize the harm they do when they buy from irresponsible breeders and pet shops - whether it be a pure or mixed breed dog - they are supporting and encouraging more irresponsible breeding. When they buy one, they just encourage the breeding of more. That doesn't happen when they adopt from a rescue or shelter.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

British Bandit... have you seen the rottendoodles yet? Sheesh! I mean seriously there is nothing that BYB's wont do for a buck!
Although canadian laws seem tougher regarding falsely advertising and not registering pups, they are rarely enforced, sadly.
As BB stated earlier, it is all a hype, a fad, an excuse to charge rediculous prices for pups in hopes of "cashing in" by fooling unknowing people into believeing they are purchasing the "hottest new thing" 
I can tap designer names on my dogs as well...
I have a "purebred" Boxweiler and a "purebred" Rottwheppard!!!! did I pay thousands for them??? NO! Rescues!
When people tell me of their "golden doodles" or "cockapoo's" I am all to quick on whipping those rediculous sounding designer names back at them... you can see the gears grinding in their heads... " Ummm, that doesnt sound right, maybe i was jipped"


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Thanks DogAdvocate!

No, there are no laws about not registering a dog, but at times (my parents were duped with this one), the breeder claims the pups are AKC or CanadianKC registered. But, are decieving. The parents are registered, but they did/do not register the pups. Still claiming that they are indeed registered, or that the new owners can register them with copies of the parents pedigrees . This is where they can be prosecuted.....false advertising. Unfortunately, not many people know about this, and feel cheated when they find out they cannot register their pup. Even more unfortunate, most believe there is nothing they can do about it, and not even phoning the police or city council will get them anywhere. Even they seem to know nothing about it. I was pointed out to this while asking on another forum last year from someone who had gone through it. They had to search the criminal code to find where it was stated. But once taken before the court, the police/judges had to "read up" on it and follow what was clearly written before them. 

This is taken directly from the Canadian Animal Pedigree Act:

_"g) knowingly offer to sell, contract to sell or sell any animal in a manner that is likely to create an erroneous impression that the animal is registered or eligible to be registered;

(h) offer to sell, contract to sell or sell, as a purebred of a breed, any animal that is not registered or eligible to be registered as a purebred by the association authorized to register animals of that breed or by the Corporation;" 

And can be punishible by:

66. (1) Any person who contravenes any provision of this Act or the regulations

(a) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction and liable to a fine not exceeding twenty-five thousand dollars; or

(b) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to a fine not exceeding fifty thousand dollars.

Value to be considered
(2) In determining the fine in relation to an offence under any of sections 63 to 65, the judge making the determination shall take into account the value, or purported value, of the animal, semen or embryo to which the offence relates._

This was the previous link to the site: http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/A-11.2/index.html but it seems to have been changed. Could be my computer though, it gets desicive on where it wants to go sometimes.  I'll try and hunt down the new address if it's just the link no longer works.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

link doesnt work for me either.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Does Canada have "puppy lemon laws"?


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Unfortunately, at work, I can't say what I'm really thinking when someone brings in their cute little overpriced bundle of marketing hype. But the one thing I can do, and always do, is list the breed on their medical chart for what it really is. "Cocker Spaniel - Poodle Mix" not "Cockapoo."

I seriously wanted to smack the person who brought in a Jack Russell - Pug mix and called it a "Jug." I think a vein bulged in my forehead and my eye developed a twitched when I heard that. "Jack-a-pug" is bad enough, but "Jug?!" That's what a gallon of milk comes in.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

My boyfriend and I argue this all the time. He says "well, all breeds had to start somewhere."  

At which point I usually say that mixed breeds with a purpose who are being deliberately bred are fine with me, such as the Alaskan Husky (fastest sled dog), the Australian Labradoodle (originally intended as a seeing eye dog) or those silken wind hounds (long haired, grey hound like speed). 

However, dogs bred randomly with out a standard in mind: The America Labradoodle, cockapoos, goldendoodles, and all of the rest of those strange sounding mixes- is just what you said that it was: hype that bybs use to prey on an uninformed public. 

Then, he usually comes back with: "What's wrong with breeding the perfect pet?" 

And I say, there are plenty of dogs that make perfect pets. There is a pure bred for everyone. For example, Portuguese Water dogs sure look alot like labradoodles to me. I think they are gorgeous! And, they have a breed club, and an official AKC ranking...

I usually end my argument with sumerizing what the OP stated in the original post: That is is far easier to find a good breeder of a pure bred dog then it is to find a half decent breeder of a poo/ whatever mix. 

Once again, this argument isn't whether mutts don't make great pets. They do. Both mutts and purebreds make great best friends to the people that love them. 

This argument isn't about that. 

This argument is about which dogs should be allowed to contribute their genetics to the world.


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

I agree thats what i been seeing lately in the newspapers. Ive seen a Goldendoodle for $1000 in the newspaper yesterday. And i been seen more of these dogs around than ever. People pay a lot because this such thing called "Breeders" tell you they are good for people with allergies. And guess what NOT all of them will. The allergies come from pet dander no matter what. I would never buy a dog for that much money. I saw a Puggle the other day at a Petstore along with a Cocker Spaniel Maltese mix. And she was selling for $500 and then next to her window said "comes with AKC papers" ARE YOU KIDING ME? I cant believe people will fall for such a low trick. 

I know im NOT the right one to talk here but because im thinking about breeding Nena does NOT mean i cant have my opinions. Im NOT going to breed her to make $1000 a pup, im NOT going to breed her to dump the puppies. Im going to breed her so that each one of the puppies go to my family. Yeah each of them will have their shots and yeah they will ALL be fixed before leaving to our family farm. 

But others like the ones you see on the internet and newspapers DONT do it for that. They do it for the $1000 that can get out of each pup. And i dont agree with small dogs being a "trend" thats crazy dogs are dogs NOT accesories please, people DONT know what i come up with anymore.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

What some do is "advertise" that the parents are AKC registered.......leading you to think the designer dogs can be registered.

Also, why do you think there are so many other "associations" that will register your mutts? Just so they can have "papers". They are fake registries that the backyard breeders and puppymills use.

What makes me sad is the fact that people will spend that $300, $400 + on a mutt when they could go get 2-3 shelter dogs and rescue them!


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

Keno's Mom said:


> What some do is "advertise" that the parents are AKC registered.......leading you to think the designer dogs can be registered.
> 
> Also, why do you think there are so many other "associations" that will register your mutts? Just so they can have "papers". They are fake registries that the backyard breeders and puppymills use.
> 
> What makes me sad is the fact that people will spend that $300, $400 + on a mutt when they could go get 2-3 shelter dogs and rescue them!





I DONT think it will be a problem if they sold for $300 or $400. But people are asking $1000 for a MUTT these days! Are you kidding me thats crazy. Ive seen one reach $1500, i dont know how there face dont fall off with such lies.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Here's a "ya but" I'd like to see contested:

"A limited and closed gene pool. Most breeds were built on relatively few founding dogs, so the same sets of genes have been reproduced over and over since the breed began. Registries such as the AKC require that all future offspring come from the mating of dogs registered with their club. This restriction eliminates the vast majority of other dogs that would otherwise be available for breeding.

Without the introduction of new and unrelated genes, in the long term all living creatures suffer "loss of genetic diversity," which inevitably leads to weaker animals with health problems. This is happening right now with purebred dogs."


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Yes, all breeds started somewhere. 

But I don't think it was from a bunch of people starting out thinking "ohh, let's mix "this" with "this", that'd look pretty cool or oh so cute". From what I've heard, years and years of research go into this, and the end result, is a standard. When two dogs of the same "breed" are bred, you get a certain look (not a bunch of pups that are all completely different builds and looks), you can pre-determine genetic disorders.

How often does the AKC or CanadianKC add a "new breed" to their list? Not very often. I cannot even recall the last time I saw one added. Some dogs that do have a standard are not yet recognized. I'm still waiting for the Canadian Kennel Club to recognize the Neapolitan Mastiff, which has been around for a LONG time.


I have to be honest, I've seen mixes that I've actually felt sorry for, and have had such serious health problems, simply from thier builds. My ex boyfriends aunt had a Lab/Dachsund. It's head was Lab (size too), the rest of the dog took on the Dachsund. It had serious back and neck problems, and only lived to be 6 years old. And that was after the dog going through years and years of pain and medication trying to make life bearable for him. Turned out the only humane thing to do was have the dog put down. 

I also saw a Chihuahua/Pug mix on petfinder a few months back. I had to click on the thumbnail, I honestly thought it was some kind of monkey, or a bush baby or something and it got added by accident. YIKES. Cute as all hell, but really looked like an Ewok.  I've never before seen anything quite like it. It actually listed on the page that the owner had surrendered the dog because it didn't turn out how the people wanted it to, didn't look like a "pure" Chi/Pug.  *sigh*


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## mistyinca (Oct 25, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> British Bandit... have you seen the rottendoodles yet? Sheesh! I mean seriously there is nothing that BYB's wont do for a buck!


Whoa! Is that by chance a Rottie and a poodle???!! Why on earth would anyone want to breed together those two?! Not that any designer dogs should be bred, but I'm wondering what they were trying to produce with that mixture.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Here's a "ya but" I'd like to see contested:
> 
> "A limited and closed gene pool. Most breeds were built on relatively few founding dogs, so the same sets of genes have been reproduced over and over since the breed began. Registries such as the AKC require that all future offspring come from the mating of dogs registered with their club. This restriction eliminates the vast majority of other dogs that would otherwise be available for breeding.
> 
> Without the introduction of new and unrelated genes, in the long term all living creatures suffer "loss of genetic diversity," which inevitably leads to weaker animals with health problems. This is happening right now with purebred dogs."


This is especially true with my breed. 

Most of the breed was killed during the civil wars in Holland during the 1700s. They were a mascott of Cornelius "Kees" de Gyselaar, whose party sided with William of Orange. 
When his party lost, De Gyselarr was killed, and with him nearly the entire breed of keeshonden. Then Mrs Wingfield-Digby rescued the breed. (The English love to breed dogs  ). 

So, the existing stock of keeshonden come from just a few foundation dogs. Although for the most part, they are extremely healthy dogs with few problems, occasionally diseases such as epilepsie will crop up in a line. Once there, it is impossible to breed out.


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

Ive seen a website where you can see pictures of any of these such called "Designer Dogs" which still a Mutt no matter how you put it. Its just a fancier names for people that are dumb enough to believe it. But anyways if you want to see pics just let me know.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> a Cocker Spaniel Maltese mix


Oooh.. The "designer" name that first comes to mind would not be repeatable in polite company.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> British Bandit... have you seen the rottendoodles yet? Sheesh! I mean seriously there is nothing that BYB's wont do for a buck!


Yes, I have seen "Roodles", and quite frankly it makes me sick. Two absolutely gorgous purebreds (of any kind, not just in the Rottweiler/Poodle case) mixed to create these hideous looking dogs.  I'm sure they're great dogs like any other, but come on......WHY???

I am in NO WAY promoting this "breeder", this is just to show you what "Roodles" look like for those who've never seen one.  

http://www.valleyviewdogs.com/roodle-pictures.htm


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Lorina said:


> Oooh.. The "designer" name that first comes to mind would not be repeatable in polite company.


*hahahahahahhaahahhahahahahaha* 

I about died when I figured out what you were thinking. I was sitting down putting together the words, and I finally blurted it outloud. My boyfriend was like, "WHAT?"


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Lorina said:


> Oooh.. The "designer" name that first comes to mind would not be repeatable in polite company.


Great, now I'm gunna have to fight off laughter to respond seriously to this post. Thanks Lorina!


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

Lorina said:


> Oooh.. The "designer" name that first comes to mind would not be repeatable in polite company.





Ha ha ha lol yeah.. It would not be good.

Besides before these words of "Designer Dogs" where made up, dint people called them Mutts? Or just Poodle Chihuahua mix? But i guess there is a new word for them. Dont matter how those ignorant people out there called them, a Mutt will always be the typical Mutt no matter what you call it.


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## Meghan&Pedro (Nov 6, 2006)

I had a woman come into my store with a very cute puppy. To me, it looked like a pet quality pomeranian (it was oversized, and did not have the proper coat)

I asked her what her puppy was and she said "She's a purebred american eskipoo"

I just rolled my eyes and sold her what she wanted.

Meghan


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

Meghan&Pedro said:


> I had a woman come into my store with a very cute puppy. To me, it looked like a pet quality pomeranian (it was oversized, and did not have the proper coat)
> 
> I asked her what her puppy was and she said "She's a purebred american eskipoo"
> 
> ...





See what i mean some people are just so ignorant arent they? I would of said "Well umm then his either a Poodle or American Eskimo, you are so ignorant saying his a purebred when he is just a Mutt, you look very stupid saying this right now, im sorry that needed to be said" i would of really said that. I DONT have anything agaisnt Mutts but some people dont get it.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> The kennel clubs will not allow you to do it yourself with copies of the parents pedigree's. You should be given a registration form from the breeder sent from the kennel club with the dam and sires registration numbers, litter number and owners signature that the pup is to be transferred directly to the new owner (whether it be limited or full registration).


Acctually this is not quite correct. The breeder must register the litter not the individual pup. What they give you is a set of registration papers with the sire and dam and they have to put in their info and sing the registration certificate. With these papers/certificate you put in the dogs registed name you want and send them in with the fee. There is no transfer from the breeder to you.

Also I would not call these type of dogs MUTTS. I would call them mixed breeds. Mutts are 3,4 or more breeds with in the same dog. Mixed breeds are 2 reconized breeds with in the same animal. 

Heidi


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Leila12345666 said:


> See what i mean some people are just so ignorant arent they? I would of said "Well umm then his either a Poodle or American Eskimo, you are so ignorant saying his a purebred when he is just a Mutt, you look very stupid saying this right now, im sorry that needed to be said" i would of really said that. I DONT have anything agaisnt Mutts but some people dont get it.


So you value bluntness as long as it's not aimed at you? I think I'll keep this post for the next time I'm criticized for telling you that "you just don't get it."


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

nrhareiner said:


> Acctually this is not quite correct. The breeder must register the litter not the individual pup. What they give you is a set of registration papers with the sire and dam and they have to put in their info and sing the registration certificate. With these papers/certificate you put in the dogs registed name you want and send them in with the fee. There is no transfer from the breeder to you.
> 
> Also I would not call these type of dogs MUTTS. I would call them mixed breeds. Mutts are 3,4 or more breeds with in the same dog. Mixed breeds are 2 reconized breeds with in the same animal.
> 
> Heidi




Oh sorry i always taught there was either Mutts or Purebreds. Whats the difference? If Mutts have 3 or 4 breeds on them, mix breeds have only one that still make them Mutts right?


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> Also I would not call these type of dogs MUTTS. I would call them mixed breeds. Mutts are 3,4 or more breeds with in the same dog. Mixed breeds are 2 reconized breeds with in the same animal.
> 
> Heidi


My definition of a mutt is a mixed breed, and vice versa. The offspring of 2 recognized breeds are cross breeds. JMO


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

OHHHHHHHHH that is just so WRONG - Roodles - I can't see how anyone would say they are cute - that has to be one of the uglier crosses. I've seen a few that its like.............

for example:

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/e/eskifon.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/j/jacairn.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/affentzu.htm

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/weimardoodle.htm


There's a big difference in accidental breedings and delibrate breedings of 2 purebred dogs to "let's see what we come up with and then sell for hundreds of dollars to nieve people with money".


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

If there is no [responsible] selective breeding involved, a Mutt's a Mutt - no matter what you call it.


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

MagicToller said:


> If there is no [responsible] selective breeding involved, a Mutt's a Mutt - no matter what you call it.




Ok thank you someone agrees. I knew it there was no mixed breed or crossbred they are all called Mutts. So in this world there are the Mutts and the Purebreds thats all. No Designer Breeds either.



Keno's Mom said:


> OHHHHHHHHH that is just so WRONG - Roodles - I can't see how anyone would say they are cute - that has to be one of the uglier crosses. I've seen a few that its like.............
> 
> for example:
> 
> ...




Like i said i dont think any dog is ugly. I understand they did messed up the breed by doing such thing. But that does not make them ugly


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

Well is certainly doesn't make them "cute" Or is it a case of "so ugly they are cute?" 

Most look like they've had a bad hair day and need to be really groomed. I feel so sorry for some of them


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Leila12345666 said:


> Oh sorry i always taught there was either Mutts or Purebreds. Whats the difference? If Mutts have 3 or 4 breeds on them, mix breeds have only one that still make them Mutts right?


A mutt to me is something that has several differnt breeds in it. Like taking a dog that you can not tell what it is and crossing it on anouther dog you can not tell what exactly it is. I have several of these. Great dogs however you can not tell what breed they are even clossly related too. They have some look to them but not enough to say "Ya is he is a what every dog with something ealse"

A Cross breed is an animal who has 2 very distict parents. You can see both breeds in them. At lest that would be the hope.

Ex: I am sure more even if you are not horse people have heard of a Warmblood horse. There are american warmbloods and Dutch Warmbloods but what they really are is a cold blooded horse such as a Draft breed. (Think Budwiser horses) and a hot blooded horse like the TB horse (think Kentucky Derby). Now these do not have to be the exact breeds but it would still be this type of cross.
Any way the idea is to get the best of both horse. For the most part in the first generation this is true. You normally get what you are hoping for. Now not every time but most of the time. The problem comes in when you cross 2 Warmbloods is when you get into some problems. They do not breed true most of the time. 

However these are called cross breeds as they are from 2 very distictive and differnt breed on the same speicies. 

To me a mutt in the horse would would be taking a Arab/QH which is a very nice cross and then crossing it with say a Morgan/Tenn Walker cross. To me that is a mutt and boy are you going to get a weird horse. Is it gatted or not.

Hope that makes sence.

Heidi


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> Acctually this is not quite correct. The breeder must register the litter not the individual pup. What they give you is a set of registration papers with the sire and dam and they have to put in their info and sing the registration certificate. With these papers/certificate you put in the dogs registed name you want and send them in with the fee. There is no transfer from the breeder to you.
> 
> Also I would not call these type of dogs MUTTS. I would call them mixed breeds. Mutts are 3,4 or more breeds with in the same dog. Mixed breeds are 2 reconized breeds with in the same animal.
> 
> Heidi



Hmmm, that may be your definitioin of a mutt, but look in any dictionary or thersaurus and mutt/mixed breed/mongrel are one in the same thing. If I am incorrect here, please point me to a trusted place where it states this specifically.

Also, if you register a litter, the kennel club does send you individual papers for the new owner to send in to register each individual pup. PJ is AKC, and although he was not registered, I recieved a registration form with the litter number on it, and the breeders signiature that he was to be transferred directly into my name. Some breeders do register each individual dog, and usually done when you HAVE to use their kennel name and they chose the registered name of their dog. I had the option of choosing PJ's.
I cannot say if the CanKC does this the same way or not, but from the breeders I know here in Canada, it sounds the same to me.
Point in fact, regardless, the breeder has to register the litter, JUST copies of the parents pedigree's doesn't do you any good. Also, that obviously, mutts cannot be registered by the AKC/CanKC.


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

britishbandit said:


> Hmmm, that may be your definitioin of a mutt, but look in any dictionary or thersaurus and mutt/mixed breed/mongrel are one in the same thing. If I am incorrect here, please point me to a trusted place where it states this specifically.
> 
> Also, if you register a litter, the kennel club does send you individual papers for the new owner to send in to register each individual pup. PJ is AKC, and although he was not registered, I recieved a registration form with the litter number on it, and the breeders signiature that he was to be transferred directly into my name. Some breeders do register each individual dog, and usually done when you HAVE to use their kennel name and they chose the registered name of their dog. I had the option of choosing PJ's.
> I cannot say if the CanKC does this the same way or not, but from the breeders I know here in Canada, it sounds the same to me.
> Point in fact, regardless, the breeder has to register the litter, JUST copies of the parents pedigree's doesn't do you any good. Also, that obviously, mutts cannot be registered by the AKC/CanKC.




I know im NOT wrong here. A Mutt is a Mutt no matter how many breeds he/she has. A purebred is ONLY one doggie like a Poodle, Dane, Chihuahua and so on....


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

I never said you were Leila, my response was to nrhareiner.


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

I know i was just making a point  I know it was NOT you.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I use mutt and mixed breed synonymously, but say mixed breed more often. People tend to bristle and get insulted by the word mutt, even though it means the same thing, and it wouldn't be good business practice to insult clients. I can just imagine the evil eye I'd get if I called someone's beloved pet a mongrel!

When there is one or two breeds that can be identified, I'd call it, for instance, a "Lab Mix" or "Lab/Pointer Mix." Sometimes it's a little more vague, so a small wire-haired dog might be a "Terrier Mix," or tan and black larger dog a "Shepherd Mix." And when the only thing you can say when you look at it is, "Well, I know it's a _dog_," then I just call it a mixed breed.


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

Lorina said:


> I use mutt and mixed breed synonymously, but say mixed breed more often. People tend to bristle and get insulted by the word mutt, even though it means the same thing, and it wouldn't be good business practice to insult clients. I can just imagine the evil eye I'd get if I called someone's beloved pet a mongrel!
> 
> When there is one or two breeds that can be identified, I'd call it, for instance, a "Lab Mix" or "Lab/Pointer Mix." Sometimes it's a little more vague, so a small wire-haired dog might be a "Terrier Mix," or tan and black larger dog a "Shepherd Mix." And when the only thing you can say when you look at it is, "Well, I know it's a _dog_," then I just call it a mixed breed.



Yes i agree, when im at Petsmart i ask people what kind of dog that is and they tell me, Lab mix, Shepherd mix, Maltese mix or like Terrier mix. Hardly anyone says they are a Mutt. But i dont find the word Mutt to be ofensive.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

I've personally never felt insulted in the least when I've owned a mix and had people call him a mutt. And I've always loved my mutts.  It's true many people don't like the word, and I'll never understand why they feel "mixed breed" is more appropriate. Hey, my dogs are purebreds, and I even call them mutts sometimes....LOL....."oh you silly mutt!".

I guess it's all in personal preference, if someone prefers I refer to their dog a mixed breed rather than a mutt, so be it, I will. Normally it doesn't come to that, I simply ask the dog's name, and call it by that rather than it's orientation.

Really, what irks me more is online, when people say "pureBREADS", or don't know how to spell the name of the breed they actually own, I'll never understand that. LOL It's one thing to not know how to spell the name of a breed you aren't familiar with, but the breed you own? I can't even say how many times I've seen Chihuahua spelled "Chiwawa", or Dachshund spelled "Datshund/Dashound". I've even had fellow Rottweiler owners spell it "Rotweilder/Rotwilder/Rottwiller".......aarrgghhh! *pulls hair out* hahaha Hey, not everyone is the best speller in the world, and I make my mistakes at times, but when it's a word in my vocabulary I use often, I make sure it's spelled right.


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

I agree lol, i too sometimes call Nena a Mutt because she looks like one of those outside doggies with her scruffy coat and everything lol. Scruffy doggies are the ones that almost everytime make it into a movie to be an outside, homeless doggie lol. But there living better than any other dog.

I dont get offenced by people making comments on Nena, because i love her and i dont need no one to come and agree with me.


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

What exactly does registering mean? Papers, AKC registration...big deal. I did that with my Golden. Spent months looking for just the right situation and got a baby girl with beautiful, supposedly healthy, parents. Well, 5 years later she died from a heart defect. So stop being so high and mighty about the stupid papers. They don't mean much to me. 
Bringing a new puppy into your life is a big old game of chance. No guarantees. AKC...who cares? Anybody can make up a bunch of phony-looking papers. And it would take a pretty savy consumer to recognize a fake booklet of supposed pedigree.
Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

Kerry said:


> What exactly does registering mean? Papers, AKC registration...big deal. I did that with my Golden. Spent months looking for just the right situation and got a baby girl with beautiful, supposedly healthy, parents. Well, 5 years later she died from a heart defect. So stop being so high and mighty about the stupid papers. They don't mean much to me.
> Bringing a new puppy into your life is a big old game of chance. No guarantees. AKC...who cares? Anybody can make up a bunch of phony-looking papers. And it would take a pretty savy consumer to recognize a fake booklet of supposed pedigree.
> Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.


You got most of what you said right and i agree. Except that last part. If you breed any kind of dog with a Poodle is NOT gurenteed you will get a dog that does not shed. And thats how they keep coming into this world, because people keep trying and trying and trying.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Kerry said:


> Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.


Have you ever spent a day at a shelter loading the bodies of euthanized dogs into a crematorium? Do that for a while, and see if you don't think irresponsible breeding makes a difference.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

No Kerry, I never said AKC registrations "makes" a dog. There's so much more to look for, CERF/OFA, pedigree. You should not base one bad experience, which was down to your own neglegence of not researching and knowing what to look for and what to stay away from. I'm sorry you had to go through this with your dog. I mentioned in my original post, stating even purebreds can be bred by BYB's with registration. Point being, mixes cannot be registered, and it is wrong for these "designer breeders" to state that they can be.

And Lorina I agree. Kerry, if you stand so confidently behind your statement, got spend some time in a shelter where you get to see all these wonderful dogs being eutanized. Simply because, there's SO MANY being bred unethically. There aren't enough homes for them all, and thousands of pups being born daily. And since "designer breeders" are only out for a quick buck, to appleal to "consumer demand", where do you think the problem lies? Would you rather dogs be brought into this world with genetic testing and standards, or brought in with no standards, no idea of what disorders they'll take on or how they'll turn out?


Something needs to be done somewhere to bring down the number of dogs euthanized each year. And I don't think it's those who do things ethically and responsibly.


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## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I am not a fan of hybrids. This is a Poodle Cockalier, and honestly, it's one of the cutest puppies I've ever seen in my life. 

I mean...this dog looks like a real life Fraggle.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

Granted many do come out looking cute...but that's not the reason to breed any dog (cause you will get cute pups). Many "cute" pups are sitting in the shelters hopefully waiting for a home, but very few get a new home - they get the table of death!

How many times do we have to say it? Mixing a poodle with another breed does NOT guarentee the dog will not shed............geezzzzzzzzzzz


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## Leila12345666 (Jan 6, 2007)

To tell you the true Poodles mixes for me are the cutest dogs! But that does NOT mean one has to go out there and breed, breed and breed! And im not saying this because they DONT shed because some of them actually do. I was at Petsmart today and saw a white goldendoodle she was adorable. She was starting puppy kindergarden today. She was 9 weeks old.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> I've personally never felt insulted in the least when I've owned a mix and had people call him a mutt. And I've always loved my mutts.  It's true many people don't like the word, and I'll never understand why they feel "mixed breed" is more appropriate. Hey, my dogs are purebreds, and I even call them mutts sometimes....LOL....."oh you silly mutt!".
> 
> I guess it's all in personal preference, if someone prefers I refer to their dog a mixed breed rather than a mutt, so be it, I will. Normally it doesn't come to that, I simply ask the dog's name, and call it by that rather than it's orientation.
> 
> Really, what irks me more is online, when people say "pureBREADS", or don't know how to spell the name of the breed they actually own, I'll never understand that. LOL It's one thing to not know how to spell the name of a breed you aren't familiar with, but the breed you own? I can't even say how many times I've seen Chihuahua spelled "Chiwawa", or Dachshund spelled "Datshund/Dashound". I've even had fellow Rottweiler owners spell it "Rotweilder/Rotwilder/Rottwiller".......aarrgghhh! *pulls hair out* hahaha Hey, not everyone is the best speller in the world, and I make my mistakes at times, but when it's a word in my vocabulary I use often, I make sure it's spelled right.


I agree. What to call mixes really doesn't matter all that much. I ran into one lady that insisted on calling them "blends" -- yea, whatever!!

As for the spelling, I hear ya there too. I love when someone queries a rescue about a specific breed they'd like to adopt, but misspell the name. The follow-up question asking them if they are familiar with the breed seems a little silly. I think my favorite is Rockwilder. Or Awful Lhasa. Or, one I like to torture a friend with who's a Weimaraner rescue -- WireHammer.



Kerry said:


> What exactly does registering mean? Papers, AKC registration...big deal. I did that with my Golden. Spent months looking for just the right situation and got a baby girl with beautiful, supposedly healthy, parents. Well, 5 years later she died from a heart defect. So stop being so high and mighty about the stupid papers. They don't mean much to me.
> Bringing a new puppy into your life is a big old game of chance. No guarantees. AKC...who cares? Anybody can make up a bunch of phony-looking papers. And it would take a pretty savy consumer to recognize a fake booklet of supposed pedigree.
> Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.


Responsible breeding is like building a wall of bricks. When you start leaving bricks out, the wall will fall. Now there's no absolute guarantee that the wall won't fall anyway if an earthquake hits, or the dam breaks, or a car runs into it. But the wall is much more likely to fall if it's built in a faulty manner.

AKC/UKC papers are just one of the bricks. A responsible breeder makes sure all the bricks are used and are fitted properly in the wall. 

I'm truly sorry that you lost your dog at such a young age, but how did you know the parents were healthy? Did you just go by looks, or did they have all the indicated pre-breeding tests to help insure that they wouldn't pass on the diseases tested for? What about the grandparents? Was there ever any heart problems in the breeders whole line of dogs? Or did you possibly think that the papers were what indicated quality, and now are down on papers because that wasn't so? 

Again, papers don't indicate quality, but they are one of the bricks in the wall without which there can be no quality.


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

I'm driving down a road and come to a house where the people are selling Yorkie puppies who were born from healthy Yorkie parents.
Further down the road, people are using male poodles and female cocker spaniels....result: designer puppies.
Families come to adopt all the adorable pups. But the ones who get the "designer" dogs are contributing to mass euthanasia of dogs in this country? 
Responsible breeders only do it to better the breed? Money has nothing to do with it. Hmmm. I find that a little hard to believe. 
Who should be allowed to breed their dog? I know who shouldn't. Those examples are obvious.
By the way, my pup will be spayed and she sheds.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Kerry said:


> Designer puppies aren't the worst thing in the world. If someone wants to mix a poodle father and bichon mother...what's the difference? Many people don't care about the integrity of breeding dogs...they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed.


It may be that they just want a cute dog that doesn't shed, but like you, won't they be the first to complain when that cute shed-less dog develops a heart problem, or some other preventable problem? Both poodles and bichons are prone to eye problems including cataracts and luxated lens. Will the cuteness and non-shedding help them to feel better about their 8 year old dog that just went blind? Bichons are now showing up with CHD, even though they are a small breed. Poodles and bichons suffer from patellar luxation. Will that poodle/bichon mix have both hip dysplasia and bad kneecaps? And what happens when this cute shedless dog acquires all of these medical problems - will they just dump it in favor of another designer dog of a different breed? After all, if poodle/bichon didn't work, then maybe poodle/whatsis will be better? Does the fact that the ignorant public doesn't care about the integrity of breeding mean that there shouldn't be integrity in breeding? Are we to accept substandard quality simply because people don't understand what quality means?


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

Thanks for the kind words about my dog who died. The breeder seemed wonderful, caring, knowledgeable. We waited for months, were told that the parents and grandparents were perfect and all her dogs had all the tests, went to visit with the mom, heard the stories about show winners and admired all the trophies.
My point is just this: Any animal can have things wrong with it. I agree, of course, that puppy mills are awful and some people who sell puppies don't care about the animals. 
I honestly don't know what else I could have done when purchasing my Golden. Other than doing genetic testing myself, it all looked to be great and I thought I was being very careful. She was recommended by many people and made us go through a rigorous interview process.


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

Kerry said:


> Thanks for the kind words about my dog who died. The breeder seemed wonderful, caring, knowledgeable. We waited for months, were told that the parents and grandparents were perfect and all her dogs had all the tests, went to visit with the mom, heard the stories about show winners and admired all the trophies.
> My point is just this: Any animal can have things wrong with it. I agree, of course, that puppy mills are awful and some people who sell puppies don't care about the animals.
> I honestly don't know what else I could have done when purchasing my Golden. Other than doing genetic testing myself, it all looked to be great and I thought I was being very careful. She was recommended by many people and made us go through a rigorous interview process.


I don't know Kerry. It's so hard to find a responsible breeder out there that I sometimes think that puppy buyers need mentors too - someone that can go with them to interview the breeder to make sure that everything is done right. There isn't a breeder out there that won't tell you that they are doing it the right way, and some of them are very good salespersons. It's a lot like pet shops that lie to people about where their dogs come from - like telling them that the dog comes from a breeder and not a puppymill - snowing people into believing that puppymills aren't breeders.  

I guess that's one of the many reasons that I'll always get a dog from a shelter or rescue, and stay as far away from breeders as possible.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

DogAdvocat said:


> I don't know Kerry. It's so hard to find a responsible breeder out there that I sometimes think that puppy buyers need mentors too - someone that can go with them to interview the breeder to make sure that everything is done right. There isn't a breeder out there that won't tell you that they are doing it the right way, and some of them are very good salespersons. It's a lot like pet shops that lie to people about where their dogs come from - like telling them that the dog comes from a breeder and not a puppymill - snowing people into believing that puppymills aren't breeders.
> 
> I guess that's one of the many reasons that I'll always get a dog from a shelter or rescue, and stay as far away from breeders as possible.



I am not quite sure why you think that this breeder was not good and responsible. I have a freind who bought a pup about a year ago. Was going to be a show dog that she was going to show. Both the pups parents when Champions and where tested for everything in that breed, I know this for a fact as my freind has copies of all the test results. Now the pup was having some problems seeing so my friend too the dog to the vet to have him checked. The dog has eye problems that both parents had been tested clear for. SO b/c her dog has this problem does that make her not a responsible or unknowlagble. She has been showing dogs all her life and breeding part of that time. She knows what to ask and what to look for. It just happends.

Same thing happen to my neibors. They bought a German Shephard pup about a year and a 1/2 ago. Both parents had been certifed Excelant hips she too has copies of the papers. The dog was diagnosed with HD at a year. Again this person has been into dogs for years. she knows the questions to ask the papers to look at everything. She just was unlucky. Her dog feel into that 4%.

Just b/c a dog has all its certifications does not garentee anything. 

Heidi


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

Well, you're saving a life using a shelter. And there's no pretending...you really have no idea what you're getting. You just hope for the best.
Here's a question that's sure to ruffle some feathers: Couldn't a pet store be viewed in the same way? I know, I know. It allows irresponsible breeders to continue. But what happens to puppies who aren't bought? They sort of need rescuing, don't they?


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

I will say this. Now I know there may be one someplace close but I do not know where it would be but non of the pet stores around here sell any larger animals. Now some sell bird and fish reptiels and animals like that but no dogs or cats. Every pet store allows rescues to come in and set up. Some of the stores donate feed to the rescues and stuff like that.

Heidi


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Kerry said:


> But what happens to puppies who aren't bought? They sort of need rescuing, don't they?


The puppies are most likely given away or sent to a shelter if they become to old to buy. However, most pet store owners will start dropping the price on a pup if it's in their shop for to long. However, every dollar that's given back to a pet shop owner who sells pups is another dollar (or reason) to continue buying pups from brokers, or BYB's, or puppymillers. These pups may suffer in the long run if their not bought, but let's not propogate the problem by buying them. How many pet store owners would sell pups if no one bought them? The answer's none, it's not good economics. I know, I know, you can't stop people from buying them. But do you want to be the person to propogate the problem? Do you want to reccommend to your family and friends and good pet store to buy pups? I would hope the sense guides the caring individual to an answer of NO!


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## DogAdvocat (Nov 30, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> I am not quite sure why you think that this breeder was not good and responsible. I have a freind who bought a pup about a year ago. Was going to be a show dog that she was going to show. Both the pups parents when Champions and where tested for everything in that breed, I know this for a fact as my freind has copies of all the test results. Now the pup was having some problems seeing so my friend too the dog to the vet to have him checked. The dog has eye problems that both parents had been tested clear for. SO b/c her dog has this problem does that make her not a responsible or unknowlagble. She has been showing dogs all her life and breeding part of that time. She knows what to ask and what to look for. It just happends.
> 
> Same thing happen to my neibors. They bought a German Shephard pup about a year and a 1/2 ago. Both parents had been certifed Excelant hips she too has copies of the papers. The dog was diagnosed with HD at a year. Again this person has been into dogs for years. she knows the questions to ask the papers to look at everything. She just was unlucky. Her dog feel into that 4%.
> 
> ...


I didn't say they weren't responsible. I said it's difficult to know because irresponsible breeders will lie. If every breeder says they are the responsible ones, then how is one to know which ones really are. It's certainly not unreasonable to assume that some of them take shortcuts but are aware of what should be done and tell people they've done it. Then there are the ones that claim xyz isn't necessary in their breed, and if the buyer doesn't know any better - then they really need a mentor of their own to be able to contradict the irresponsible breeder. People are advised to have a mechanic check a car before they buy it, because the car buyer is not an expert. I see no difference with dogs. It's important to do your homework before buying, but at a certain point, you have to either trust, or find someone that knows more to help.

And yes, I know there's no real guarantees, even if the breeder offers one. A guarantee doesn't stop the dog from getting sick, it is just a contract stating what the breeder will do if it happens.



Kerry said:


> Well, you're saving a life using a shelter. And there's no pretending...you really have no idea what you're getting. You just hope for the best.
> Here's a question that's sure to ruffle some feathers: Couldn't a pet store be viewed in the same way? I know, I know. It allows irresponsible breeders to continue. But what happens to puppies who aren't bought? They sort of need rescuing, don't they?


Yes, it's a crap shoot no matter what you do. However, the dogs I choose from shelters are normally adults, and I feel less is hidden. For instance, if I adopt a 7-year-old dachshund that has passed the normal 6-year mark for developing back problems, then I can be pretty sure that it never will have back problems. If I adopt a 3-year-old golden retriever, then I can pretty much be sure that if it was going to develop CHD, it would have already done so. These are examples only, and if those were the breeds I was interested in, I'd do my homework to find out if those statistics were correct before choosing.  

As for pet stores, the main reason I'm against pet stores (and there are many reasons), is the puppymill mamas. Having rescued and lived with a few, I know what hell they went through. And while someone is "rescuing" a pet shop puppy, what they are really doing is making space for another puppy to take that puppy's place - which keeps that puppymill mama in her cage making more puppies. The only way to ever have puppymill mama liberation is to stop buying from pet stores and puppymills.

And normally, what happens to puppies that aren't bought is the pet store reduces the price until they are bought. But while that is happening, it's costing the pet store money to maintain that puppy, and if it happens often enough, they will begin to see that it's not cost effective to keep selling puppies.


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

What I will say is that if you do get a puppy from a responsible breeder, and for some reason despite all the necessary testing develops a genetic problem, the breeder will go back and try and find where down the line this may have happened. The dogs will not be bred again for risk of producing more "inferior" dogs, and they will help you out with the cost of vet bills and be there for you no matter what. As I'm sure after so many years with the dog, you'd unlikely want to give it up even with the option of returning the dog to the breeder. I know I wouldn't be giving up my dog.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Another ya but to argue: 

 Ya but, by breeding dogs to a detailed standard of appearance, show breeders seek to produce dogs who match a written Standard of Conformation (for example, eyes a certain shape). To get these details right, show breeders limit the gene pool even more by rejecting breeding stock who might be healthy and good-tempered, but who can't "deliver" in eye shape. Breeding to some standard is how breeds are developed in the first place, but eventually it results in loss of genetic diversity, which as we've said, leads to problems with health and vigor. Isn’t there a need for new genes, and new breeds?


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## britishbandit (Dec 11, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Isn’t there a need for new genes, and new breeds?[/SIZE] [/FONT]


Maybe so, but do you think that average dog owners should be the ones dabbling in it? I sure don't.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

britishbandit said:


> Maybe so, but do you think that average dog owners should be the ones dabbling in it? I sure don't.


Of course you know I agree whole heartedly. I'm merely trying to pose arguments that breeders of designer dogs try to claim. However, adding to the gene pool doesn't exactly benefit genetics when creating a designer dog. Some Shelti-Poos might fit the created description (standard) but many won't. A breeder can't pick and choose what features will be passed on from each breed — it's strictly a matter of luck because the genetic combinations involved in the crossing of breeds or runt selection is random and unpredictable. There is just as much of a chance that the puppy will grow up to have the worst characteristics of both breeds or parents! The selection of certain traits is achieved only by generations of careful breeding, discarding dogs that don't have the desired qualities and narrowing the gene pool (again) until the right combinations occur with regularity. So this argument is weak in my mind.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Of course you know I agree whole heartedly. I'm merely trying to pose arguments that breeders of designer dogs try to claim. However, adding to the gene pool doesn't exactly benefit genetics when creating a designer dog. Some Shelti-Poos might fit the created description (standard) but many won't. A breeder can't pick and choose what features will be passed on from each breed — it's strictly a matter of luck because the genetic combinations involved in the crossing of breeds or runt selection is random and unpredictable. There is just as much of a chance that the puppy will grow up to have the worst characteristics of both breeds or parents! The selection of certain traits is achieved only by generations of careful breeding, discarding dogs that don't have the desired qualities and narrowing the gene pool (again) until the right combinations occur with regularity. So this argument is weak in my mind.



The argument is not weak it is for the lack of a better work missgueded. When looking for a genetic outcross to say a Golden to a poodle would not be the correct one even though in many ways they where ariginally breed for simular purposes.

Most breeds have a large enough gene pool that they do not really need to go to anouther breed although this can be very halpfull when done correctly. This is where I find AKC very lacking in their record keeping. Through keeping of accurate records of both get/produce records and crosses and making them available to the general public would go along way to helping many of the breeds problems that we are seeing today.

Heidi


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> This is where I find AKC very lacking in their record keeping. Through keeping of accurate records of both get/produce records and crosses and making them available to the general public would go along way to helping many of the breeds problems that we are seeing today.


I would agree that better record keeping is needed, or can be improved. However, in terms of tracking genes, it's not just the AKC that can improve. All the individual breed registries need to improve as well. Should the FCI enforce better breeding standard and genetic tracking, or should the venue creators demand better breeding standards and genetic tracking from breeders? If registries are merely tracking animals, shouldn't breeders be responsible for enforcing a strict breeding standard (requiring health testing and genetic testing) for their breeding programs? Or should someone else enforce better tracking?


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

What would happens at least with most breeders would be a better informed desition on crosses with better record keeping and buyers would also have a better resorse when picking a pup. As it stands now there is no way to know what a give sire or dam produces. There is no way to track or verifie what breeders are telling you about their dogs. Yes you can find out if the dogs have certifications through OFA but to me that on only a small part of picking a pup or a breeding cross. 

When I deside to breed one of my mares you should see all the resoruces available to me. I would make your head spin and it does not matter what the stallion owner talls me I can verifie it easally. This is a big factor in breeding and one the dog world is sorly missing and I can see where it is really hurting many breeds. WIth out this info it really makes it hard to deturman it good outcross to given lines that will work well and inprove on what you are trying to inprove on in your lines.

Heidi

Lets see if this will show up correctly here so you can get any idea of some of the info I can get when looking up info on a give horse. This is something AKC could easly do and they do not.

Heidi

GET OF SIRE DETAIL
Performing Foals of GUN START

If you wish to print this report click the print button on your browser.
Click the back button on your browser to view another report or to return to the main menu. 
REG. NO. HORSE'S NAME COLOR SEX DATE FOAL ST 
1525303 GUN START BAY STALLION 04/01/1979 OH 


Additional Horse Information for GUN START: 

Genetic Typed 
SIRE DAM MATERNAL GRANDSIRE 
1213973 BEAU GUNNER 0752745 PRICE'S START 0227368 JUNO SNORT RED 


DESCRIPTION NAME ADDRESS 
BREEDER: EARL AND/OR GALE COX MIDDLETOWN, OH 
OWNER: BRYAN MAAS PARKSTON, SD 

AQHA Show Totals for GUN START LAST SHOW OPEN
HALTER OPEN PERFORM AMATEUR HALTER AMATEUR PERFORM YOUTH HALTER YOUTH PERFORM NOVICE AMATEUR NOVICE YOUTH EQ W/ DISAB 
06/1987 .0 24.0 .0 .0 .0 .0 .0 .0 .0 

AQHA/Alliance Totals for GUN START 
Accuracy and completeness of information are the responsibility of each alliance. NATIONAL REINING HORSE ASSOCIATION $ 4,695.13 Earned thru 11/17/1984 

Achievements for GUN START YEAR TYPE DESCRIPTION 
1983 OPEN WORLD SHOW JR REINING 3rd PLACE 
1983 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

GUN START'S Performing Offspring 



NARA GUNNER 2284225 Black Mare 06/01/1984 
Dam- TWINKLE JOE RIO 0455702 Damsire- TRIPLE TWINKLE 0199271 
Show: 06/1987 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

RWD START 2286987 Sorrel Gelding 04/01/1984 
Dam- POCOTALICO 0715576 Damsire- DART'S ZERO BAR 0451836 
Show: 09/1992 Open- H- .0 P- 20.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .5 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
Novice Amateur- P- 2.0 Novice Youth- P- .0 Eq w/ Disabilities- P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 78,022.90 Earned thru 11/05/1989 
Achievement: 1992 OPEN QUALIFIED SR REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1992 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

GUN STARTS REMO 2438131 Bay Stallion 04/01/1985 1996 Breeding Season Incentive Fund Stallion; Genetic Typed 
Dam- MERRY JESSIE 0573240 Damsire- JESSIE JAMES 0002257 
Show: 11/1992 Open- H- .0 P- 17.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 2,332.23 Earned thru 07/06/1991 
Achievement: 1991 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

THE FASTEST START 2415772 Bay Gelding 06/01/1985 
Dam- LADY SUGAR PIU 0970658 Damsire- SUGAR JAGUAR 0721436 
Show: 11/1998 Open- H- .5 P- 1.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .5 P- 199.0 
Novice Amateur- P- .0 Novice Youth- P- 138.5 Eq w/ Disabilities- P- .0 
Achievement: 1995 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1992 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1990 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

GUN STARTS TOP GUN 2570983 Deceased Sorrel Gelding 04/01/1986 
Dam- THIRD LIZ 0906454 Damsire- CONTINENTAL KING 0081640 
Show: 03/2001 Open- H- .0 P- 34.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- 23.5 Youth- H- .0 P- 22.0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 11,122.99 Earned thru 06/27/1999 
Achievement: 1993 OPEN QUALIFIED SR REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1993 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1993 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1990 AMATEUR PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

HANKS TOP GUN 2573322 Bay Gelding 04/01/1986 
Dam- HEATHER HANK 1540620 Damsire- BROTHER HANK 0422259 
Show: 07/1995 Open- H- .0 P- 5.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- 10.0 Youth- H- .0 P- 19.5 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 366.31 Earned thru 09/19/1993 
Achievement: 1995 AMATEUR PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1991 YOUTH HIGH POINT REINING 8th PLACE 
Achievement: 1991 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

MS MAGNUM FORCE 2547788 Bay Mare 05/06/1986 
Dam- HARVS FANCY GAL 1994813 Damsire- BROTHER HARV 0998384 
Show: 07/1989 Open- H- .0 P- 2.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 243.24 Earned thru 05/30/1990 

DADS SMOKIN GUN 2764976 Black Mare 02/01/1988 
Dam- LOOK'S MISS POKEY 0648447 Damsire- INDIANA LOOK 0100024 
Show: 05/1992 Open- H- .0 P- 4.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

GUN START GAL 2792935 Red Dun Mare 03/01/1989 
Dam- POCOTALICO 0715576 Damsire- DART'S ZERO BAR 0451836 
Show: 04/1994 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 1,579.42 Earned thru 04/21/1994 

MAUDE FRIZON 2799447 Bay Mare 02/01/1989 Genetic Typed; Horse Embryo Enrolled 
Dam- JENNA ROSE 2156058 Damsire- ROSE OF ROSES 1761132 
Show: 01/1998 Open- H- .0 P- 21.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- 3.0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
Novice Amateur- P- 35.5 Novice Youth- P- .0 Eq w/ Disabilities- P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 5,570.64 Earned thru 07/31/1997 
Achievement: 1993 OPEN QUALIFIED JR REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1993 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

AMBLING GUN 2911613 Bay Mare 04/01/1990 
Dam- HEATHER HANK 1540620 Damsire- BROTHER HANK 0422259 
Show: 10/1994 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

CORONAS BEAU START 2972213 Sorrel Gelding 04/08/1990 
Dam- CORONAS SOOZY 2183819 Damsire- CORONA CODY 0762181 
Show: 10/1995 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 9,430.79 Earned thru 11/06/2004 

PLAY ME COACH 2885633 Sorrel Gelding 02/01/1990 
Dam- BE H FANCY 1548486 Damsire- BE AECH ENTERPRISE 1344857 
Show: 10/1999 Open- H- .0 P- 5.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- 6.0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 8,835.40 Earned thru 10/12/1997 

RUM N CHERRY COKE 2888388 Bay Gelding 05/01/1990 
Dam- SUBLIME GRACIA 2122983 Damsire- HESA COMMANDER 0961841 
Show: 10/1996 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- 13.0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 4,876.62 Earned thru 02/28/1997 
Achievement: 1995 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

SCENE OF THE CRIME 3038760 Bay Gelding 01/01/1991 
Dam- SUCHA DOC 2283115 Damsire- DOC'S PRESCRIPTION 0951309 
Show: 07/1995 Open- H- .0 P- .5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

SLIDE N SHOUT 3048761 Bay Gelding 04/29/1991 
Dam- MARK LADY HIGH 1871420 Damsire- MARK HIM HIGH 1101340 
Show: 11/2006 Open- H- .0 P- 7.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- 12.0 Youth- H- .0 P- 1.0 
Novice Amateur- P- .0 Novice Youth- P- .0 Eq w/ Disabilities- P- .0 
Achievement: 2004 AMATEUR LIMITED RIDER POLE BENDING 10th PLACE 
Achievement: 2003 AMATEUR PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

START AGAIN 3047288 Sorrel Mare 04/04/1991 Genetic Typed; Horse Embryo Enrolled 
Dam- POCOTALICO 0715576 Damsire- DART'S ZERO BAR 0451836 
Show: 12/1994 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 4,888.00 Earned thru 10/09/1994 

GOTTA GET A GUN 3090094 Deceased Bay Mare 03/03/1992 Genetic Typed 
Dam- LIL GREEN APPLE 2382437 Damsire- LEO SAN GLASCOCK 0125560 
Show: 05/1997 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 9,215.95 Earned thru 11/03/1996 
Achievement: 1996 AMATEUR NRHA INTERMEDIATE NON-PRO RES WRLD CHAMP 

GS EIGHTY PROOF 3077416 Brown Gelding 04/22/1992 
Dam- MARK LADY HIGH 1871420 Damsire- MARK HIM HIGH 1101340 
Show: 05/2001 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

GUN GRINDER 3110225 Sorrel Gelding 02/29/1992 
Dam- GRINDERS GIRL 1960172 Damsire- ORGAN GRINDER 1041976 
Show: 06/2001 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 5,721.11 Earned thru 05/16/1999 

JANELS LIL SHADE 3084233 Bay Mare 03/13/1992 Genetic Typed 
Dam- SITTIN IN THE SHADE 2149781 Damsire- TOPSAIL CODY 1275074 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 13,017.88 Earned thru 07/03/1999 

PINEETTA START 3082996 Bay Mare 04/14/1992 Genetic Typed 
Dam- CERTAIN PLEASURE 1688376 Damsire- CERTAIN SUCCESS 1179874 
Show: 05/2006 Open- H- .0 P- 13.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- 1.5 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 64.25 Earned thru 07/12/2003 
Achievement: 1997 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

START THE BIDDING 3118835 Red Dun Gelding 04/01/1992 
Dam- POCOTALICO 0715576 Damsire- DART'S ZERO BAR 0451836 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 254.99 Earned thru 02/28/2002 

RAINING GUNS 3230900 Sorrel Mare 04/16/1993 Genetic Typed 
Dam- MISS SEA DEPTH 1576125 Damsire- SEAGO LEO 0342204 
Show: 02/1999 Open- H- .5 P- 31.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- 88.0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 864.91 Earned thru 10/03/1998 
Achievement: 1998 AMATEUR QUALIFIED SHOWMANSHIP WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1998 AMATEUR QUALIFIED REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1998 OPEN QUALIFIED JR REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1998 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 
Achievement: 1997 AMATEUR QUALIFIED REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1996 AMATEUR PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

START N STOP 3180768 Sorrel Stallion 05/05/1993 
Dam- POCOTALICO 0715576 Damsire- DART'S ZERO BAR 0451836 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 142.75 Earned thru 05/04/1997 

START WITH STYLE 3180766 Bay Gelding 04/26/1993 
Dam- SUCHA DOC 2283115 Damsire- DOC'S PRESCRIPTION 0951309 
Show: 05/2002 Open- H- .0 P- 13.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 2,386.77 Earned thru 08/15/1997 
Achievement: 1998 OPEN QUALIFIED JR REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 1998 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

CORINA BLUE 3277333 Chestnut Mare 04/15/1994 Genetic Typed 
Dam- MI PIEDRA 1325906 Damsire- TWO ROCKS 0552855 
Show: 09/1999 Open- H- .0 P- 17.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 1,113.82 Earned thru 09/24/2000 
Achievement: 1999 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

CORINA START 3284679 Bay Mare 04/22/1994 
Dam- CERTAIN PLEASURE 1688376 Damsire- CERTAIN SUCCESS 1179874 
Show: 07/1999 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- 2.0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 7.13 Earned thru 05/15/1999 

DOCS GUNNER GIRL 3266192 Bay Mare 04/28/1994 Genetic Typed 
Dam- SUCHA DOC 2283115 Damsire- DOC'S PRESCRIPTION 0951309 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 520.71 Earned thru 07/22/2006 

GS SHOT GUN WEDDING 3373521 Sorrel Mare 04/19/1994 Genetic Typed 
Dam- MARK LADY HIGH 1871420 Damsire- MARK HIM HIGH 1101340 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 5,642.94 Earned thru 05/28/1999 

LIL SON OF A GUNS 3257489 Sorrel Gelding 04/05/1994 
Dam- LIL GREEN APPLE 2382437 Damsire- LEO SAN GLASCOCK 0125560 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 174.86 Earned thru 09/06/1997 

RUGGED GUN 3276479 Bay Gelding 03/12/1994 
Dam- SWF BELLADONNA 2676257 Damsire- RUGGED LARK 2086479 
Show: 04/2003 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 1,502.21 Earned thru 05/06/2006 

LADY GUN START 3435175 Deceased Bay Mare 04/30/1995 
Dam- MARK LADY HIGH 1871420 Damsire- MARK HIM HIGH 1101340 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 114.19 Earned thru 06/26/1999 

MM TOOPHAN 3375789 Dun Mare 04/17/1995 Genetic Typed 
Dam- TERRIBLE PINK 1361135 Damsire- GREAT PINE 0410616 
Show: 10/2000 Open- H- .0 P- 12.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 1,163.57 Earned thru 08/03/2002 
Achievement: 2002 OPEN RIDDEN IN HORSEBACK RIDING PROGRAM 
Achievement: 2000 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

RC GUNPLAY ACE 3431560 Chestnut Mare 04/22/1995 Parent Verified; Genetic Typed 
Dam- ELDERBERRY MIST 2685018 Damsire- ELDERBERRY ACE 1443182 
Show: 09/2004 Open- H- .0 P- 14.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
Novice Amateur- P- 2.0 Novice Youth- P- .0 Eq w/ Disabilities- P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 1,872.85 Earned thru 11/07/2002 
Achievement: 2003 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

START A GOLDRUSH 3425932 Bay Gelding 03/14/1995 
Dam- LADY GOLD DIGGER 2792934 Damsire- MAJOR BONANZA 0856061 
Show: 04/2000 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 1,077.00 Earned thru 10/03/1998 

ARIZONA 206 3460121 Bay Gelding 03/01/1996 
Dam- TIARA CHIP 3051032 Damsire- ZIPS CHOCOLATE CHIP 2302598 
Show: 05/2006 Open- H- .0 P- .5 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- 3.5 

EASY GUN MONEY 3526143 Bay Gelding 05/07/1996 
Dam- OKIES EASY MONEY 2183837 Damsire- OKIE LEO MONEY 0591311 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 1,737.87 Earned thru 06/04/2006 

HOWITZER GUNS 3494544 Brown Gelding 05/25/1996 
Dam- MELROSE PINE 2842311 Damsire- GREAT PINE 0410616 
Show: 09/1999 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

SPRING START 3444049 Bay Gelding 03/20/1996 
Dam- LADY GOLD DIGGER 2792934 Damsire- MAJOR BONANZA 0856061 
Show: 09/2001 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .5 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 491.23 Earned thru 06/03/2001 
Achievement: 2004 OPEN RIDDEN IN HORSEBACK RIDING PROGRAM 

CS ANGEL FIRE 3571950 Bay Mare 05/05/1997 Genetic Typed 
Dam- CERTAIN PLEASURE 1688376 Damsire- CERTAIN SUCCESS 1179874 
Show: 08/2004 Open- H- .0 P- 8.5 Amateur- H- .0 P- 1.0 Youth- H- .0 P- 16.5 
Novice Amateur- P- .0 Novice Youth- P- .0 Eq w/ Disabilities- P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 49.56 Earned thru 07/31/2004 
National Snaffle Bit Association: $ 606.00 Earned thru 12/31/1998 
Achievement: 2004 YOUTH QUALIFIED REINING WORLD SHOW 
Achievement: 2003 YOUTH PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT 

GS DUEL 3553154 Sorrel Gelding 03/14/1997 
Dam- LADY GOLD DIGGER 2792934 Damsire- MAJOR BONANZA 0856061 
Show: 08/1997 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

GS RED CORVETTE 4755432 Sorrel Gelding 05/06/1997 Parent Verified; Genetic Typed; Dam Has Embryo Enrollment 
Dam- IM NOT TRASH 4631992 Damsire- BE AECH ENTERPRISE 1344857 
Show: 10/2006 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

MS DREAM ANGEL 3593148 Sorrel Mare 04/24/1997 
Dam- PEKOES GREATEST PINE 2592197 Damsire- GREAT PINE 0410616 
Show: 09/2001 Open- H- .0 P- 1.0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 25.88 Earned thru 08/26/2001 

CP ETTA MAE 3685408 Chestnut Mare 05/09/1998 
Dam- CERTAIN PLEASURE 1688376 Damsire- CERTAIN SUCCESS 1179874 
Show: 05/1999 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

PURDY SPECIAL 3917308 Sorrel Gelding 04/28/1998 
Dam- LADY GOLD DIGGER 2792934 Damsire- MAJOR BONANZA 0856061 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 5.70 Earned thru 07/03/2005 
Achievement: 2004 OPEN RIDDEN IN HORSEBACK RIDING PROGRAM 

BS SHOWTIME 3836153 Bay Mare 05/05/1999 
Dam- TIARA CHIP 3051032 Damsire- ZIPS CHOCOLATE CHIP 2302598 
National Snaffle Bit Association: $ 440.00 Earned thru 12/31/1997 

GS TEXAS ROSE 3815595 Sorrel Mare 03/08/1999 Genetic Typed 
Dam- MI PIEDRA 1325906 Damsire- TWO ROCKS 0552855 
Show: 10/2000 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

HONEY OFA GUNSTART 3812445 Bay Gelding 04/18/1999 Transported Semen; Genetic Typed 
Dam- HONEY MILL 2180746 Damsire- SLASH MILLIRON 1093986 
National Reining Horse Association: $ 450.80 Earned thru 11/12/2005 

GS BEAMER 4669135 Bay Gelding 05/15/2001 Parent Verified; Genetic Typed; Dam Has Embryo Enrollment 
Dam- IM NOT TRASH 4631992 Damsire- BE AECH ENTERPRISE 1344857 
Show: 10/2006 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 

CHARLIES SASSY ANGEL 4682642 Brown Mare 03/08/2005 Parent Verified; Genetic Typed 
Dam- MISS ELLIE JON 2281241 Damsire- JONATHAN SWIFT 1534756 
Achievement: 2006 AMATEUR REGIONAL EXPERIENCE YEARLING MARE 3rd PLACE 
Achievement: 2006 OPEN REGIONAL EXPERIENCE YEARLING MARE 3rd PLACE 

START WITH DIAMONDS 4646137 Chestnut Mare 03/22/2005 Parent Verified; Genetic Typed 
Dam- STRANGERS SWEET DUDE 2700356 Damsire- MR DIAMOND DUDE 0539866 
Show: 09/2005 Open- H- .0 P- .0 Amateur- H- .0 P- .0 Youth- H- .0 P- .0 


Summary of GUN START'S Offspring Reg Foals 115 Perf Foals 51 CYR Perf Foals 8 
Crops Reg 20 Crops Raced 0 Race Age Foals 112 

No Race Information 


AQHA Show Summary All-time 2006 Total 
Open Amateur Youth Open Amateur Youth 
Halter Points 1.0 .0 .5 .0 .0 .0 
Halter Point Earners 2 0 1 0 0 0 
Performance Points 236.5 142.0 280.5 2.0 1.0 1.0 
Perf Point Earners 27 10 8 1 1 1 
Halter ROMS 0 0 0 0 0 0 
Performance ROMS 10 4 7 0 0 0 
AQHA Champions 0 0 0 0 0 0 
Supreme Champions 0 0 0 0 0 0 
Super Halter Awards 0 0 0 0 0 0 
Super Perf Awards 0 0 0 0 0 0 
Super Perf Earners 0 0 0 0 0 0 
Show All Around Wins 0 6 2 0 0 0 
Show All Around Winners 0 1 1 0 0 0 
Show Res All Around Wins 2 4 7 0 0 0 
Show Res All Around Winners 1 1 1 0 0 0 

Accuracy and completeness of information are the responsibility of each alliance. AQHA/Alliance Summary All-time 2006 Total 
Points Earned All Divisions Combined: 660.5 4.0 
Point Earners All Divisions Combined: 29 2 
National Reining Horse Association $ 174,887.47 N/A 
National Snaffle Bit Association $ 1,046.00 N/A 

No AQHA Show Year End Award Information


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

There is no such breed as an eskifon. For someone accusing others of hate and negativity, you sure seem to be carrying around your fair share of it.

Dog shows aren't a measure of cuteness....they are a comparison of a dog against the written standard of their breed. Something mixes don't have. It is irritating to me when people give their mixed breed a name and refer to them as if they are a true breed. They aren't and owners should get over it. I can understand wanting to justify an outrageous purchase price...but you just can't do that by saying "labracockafroodles" are X, Y or Z. There is no breed standard for them to breed true to. They are a genetic crap shoot. Doesn't mean they can't be great companions, but they are no different than the pound puppies that die every day in shelters because the aren't "good enough" for someone who then chooses to go out an PURCHASE that same dog from a "breeder"

eta: I just looked up "eskifons"....they look like a regular ol' mixed breed to me.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Back to Google. (This forum should have a Google link built-in.)

Here's what it says at dogbreedinfo.com:

*The **Eskifon** is not a purebred dog. It is a cross between the American Eskimo and the Brussels Griffon. The best way to determine the temperament of a mixed breed is to look up all breeds in the cross and know you can get any combination of any of the characteristics found in either breed. This hybrid cross is recognized by the American Canine Hybrid Club. **Not all of these designer hybrid dogs being bred are 50% purebred to 50% purebred. It is very common for breeders to breed multi-generation crosses.*

There's an American Hybrid Club? 

So then I had to look up 'hybrid' and I learned that there are two meanings. One refers to the interspecies mixes (like mules) and one refers to a mixed of two breeds within a species.

(As a terrorist, I find it imperative to gather as much intelligence about the enemy as I can.)​


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

> (As a terrorist, I find it imperative to gather as much intelligence about the enemy as I can.)


If you are enlisting the help of plott hounds, I'm afraid we are all doomed! Lord knows our greyhounds wouldn't put up much of a fight if it disrupted their napping schedule  ROFL

As for the American Hybrid Club....what a freaking joke. Of course, people will do anything to make money, I suppose...even create registering bodies or "clubs" in an effort to legitimize a mixed breed dog and squeeze even more money out of puppy buyers.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

nharrier, I have no idea what you are trying to get across there with all the horse stuff, but I have to ask... Why does it always come down to your horses in dog discussions?

Eskifon lover... I am appauled by your post. I have never read anything so ignorant on here. You have obviously missed the whole point behind designer dogs, many of us own mutts and are proud of them, but very few of us have seeked them out from apparent "breeders" and payed more than shelter fees for them. To imply that we would have liked to see them all dead, is horrible. I dont agree with people who try to pawn a mutt off as a breed, no matter how cute the name attached to a mixed breed, they are just that, A MIXED BREED. End of story!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I'll say it again. I'm still waiting for that day when Cockadoodlepoo Lover joins our forum at precisely 5:AM to defend mutts for cash. If Eskifon Lover's attitude is any indication, that day is coming sooner than we think. I don't know who will be the harder terrorist to defeat, Bin Laden or mutts for cash advocates.


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I'll say it again. I'm still waiting for that day when Cockadoodlepoo Lover joins our forum at precisely 5:AM to defend mutts for cash. If Eskifon Lover's attitude is any indication, that day is coming sooner than we think.


ROFL, I totally agree!


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Well said, Curb!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

The cute combo names are an essential part of the marketing program. Just think how much more popular donkey/horse hybrids would be if they started calling them ******* instead of mules. Everyone would want one.

Despite the testimonies from the shelter and my own vet, I seriously doubt that Esther is a purebred Plott hound. I'm thinking maybe Plottweiller or, more likely Plabrador, since we know that labs are the most promiscuous creatures on the face of the earth.


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

I can't believe that eskifon.....we are no better than terrorists? Where the heck did that come from?
I have two mixed breed dogs but when it comes to breeding dogs I will not and have never encouraged people to breed without knowing full well what they are doing and as far as I am concerned a person who breeds their maltipoo to their shih tzu to get a maltishihpoo or vice versa is NOT a responsible breeder.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Eskifon Lover said:


> All it should matter is they are loved.


Precisely. That's why it matters to some of us terrorists that they be loved from the initial "let's breed" thought in the human mind until they are adults in their forever home. 

BTW, you may want to reconsider your tact in calling American's terrorists. Better yet, don't assume we're all Americans. Many countries are represented in this dog forum. And if you have a problem with one person's post, how about confronting them with a PM instead of calling us all terrorists. But then again, maybe you're just showing us your credibility. And if you paid for your dog, thanks for patronizing puppy millers and designer dog breeders. They count on paying customers to fund their doggy terrorism.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> After seeing her medical history, realizing she came from a puppy mill and was sick (actually pooping pure blood), I had to take her as to me she was a rescue from an evil place.


Your heart was in the right place, but for future reference (and anyone else reading this), it'd be far better to report a place that was selling sick dogs to a humane society or spca. Or even to your local news. Start the wheels in motion to have the store put out of business, so the animals are taken off them and put into the homes of screened applicants rather than the first one with the cash, and so they can't hurt any more animals. Buying from them just supports their business practice.


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## Eskifon Lover (Mar 10, 2007)

I was not actually calling people terrorists. I was just posting that for the shock value since someone on here called my dog ugly and actually had a link to her picture way before I have had anyting to say. The whole point of my first comment was just for the shock value to get people to discuss the designer dogs. Just because once dog is not a pure breed does not make it any less than another dog. I love my dog.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I honestly cant recall any post where anyone said a dog was ugly?!?! 
Can you link to this? Cause really it just doesnt seem too likely.


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## Eskifon Lover (Mar 10, 2007)

Here is the quote that got me involved. IT hurt my feelings



Keno's Mom said:


> OHHHHHHHHH that is just so WRONG - Roodles - I can't see how anyone would say they are cute - that has to be one of the uglier crosses. I've seen a few that its like.............
> 
> for example:
> 
> ...


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

It's my opinion - I still they they are not cute - they are ugly. I think some of the hairless dogs are ugly. Maybe your mix is prettier then that one - since there is no consistency in what you might get.

Can you post a picture of your mixed breed?


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Eskifon Lover said:


> Here is the quote that got me involved. IT hurt my feelings


Oh get over it. I've had people tell me TO MY FACE that greyhounds are ugly or funny looking or too skinny. BFD. I like 'em and that's all that matters TO ME. 

No one said YOUR dog was ugly. Heck, no one even knows what your dog looks like. With mixed breeds, there is little-to-no predictability in terms of appearance.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

Same thing for my cornish rexes (which look like a greyhound in a poodle coat)  Many people would say they are ugly - didn't hurt my feelings a bit. Better learn to take good and bad comments in your life.


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## Eskifon Lover (Mar 10, 2007)

Actually the picture listed on dog breed info center is of my puppy


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Eskifon Lover said:


> Actually the picture listed on dog breed info center is of my puppy


Ok...but we were supposed to know that how? Either way, I stand by my statement. Not everyone is going to think your dog is cute. As long as you do, isn't that all the matters?


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

And your point is??? I'm sure it won't be the first time that someone has said your dog is ugly. Better learn to deal with it instead of calling people names because they voiced their opinion.

I will admit that SOME of the crosses are kinda cute - but they should not be done on purpose!


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Wimble Woof said:


> nharrier, I have no idea what you are trying to get across there with all the horse stuff, but I have to ask... Why does it always come down to your horses in dog discussions?
> QUOTE]
> 
> What I am trying to get accrost is this is the type of record keeping that AKC needs to be doing. This info is a very large tool when breeding. It dose not matter if it is Horse, Dogs, Cows, Pigs, it does not matter. The info contaned with in these records may vary depending on what the breed is however the info is needed to make an informed breeding desition. AKC does not make this type of records available and they should.
> ...


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

I'm gonna throw my thoughts in on this one: 
I'm a PROUD purebred dog owner. My breed of choice is the Rottweiler...not ROCKWILDER, (geez if ya can't spell it YOU DON'T NEED IT!)
I have nothing against mutts, matter of fact I've got a couple of those too.

To anyone reading this post, that may be even remotely THINKING about paying mega bucks for the "designer breed of the moment", please know the facts and don't be conned by irresponsible breeders.
FACT: Mutts are NOT healthier than PUREBREDS. All dogs have health problems. 
FACT: These "designer mutts" will NEVER have purebred status with the AKC. Regarding new breeds/rare breeds: quoting in part " no breed shall be given recognition that is the result of breeding two already recognized AKC breeds. Don't let these backyard breeders fool you. Your maltipoo, labradoodle, puggle, (gulp) Massweilers, are nothing more than your average run of the mill mutts, mixed breeds, whatever you want to call them. 

The breeders (and I use that term loosely) that produce these poor dogs care NOTHING about the pet overpopulation problem, they CARE NOT about any type of health testing (after all, that cuts into their bottom line $$$).
There is a purebred dog for everyone. Each unique in function and appearance and temperament and so on....

If you want a mixed breed dog, please go to a shelter and adopt. If you want a purebred dog, A TRUE PUREBRED, not the mixing of two breeds just for funzies, then seek out responsible breeders and ASK to see health certification papers. A responsible breeder should ask more questions of you than you ask of them..because they CARE about where their puppies are going and what kind of life they will have. A truly responsible breeder will state in their contract (a must have for all concerned), that they will take back that dog at any time in it's life if you are unable to care for it because after all, they are responsible for bringing that life into the world. 

Anyways, I hope someone reading this as well as the other posts will reconsider buying that cute puppy in the window---or backyard.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

_These "designer mutts" will NEVER have purebred status with the AKC. Regarding new breeds/rare breeds: quoting in part " no breed shall be given recognition that is the result of breeding two already recognized AKC breeds. Don't let these backyard breeders fool you. Your maltipoo, labradoodle, puggle, (gulp) Massweilers, are nothing more than your average run of the mill mutts, mixed breeds, whatever you want to call them.
_


Ahhhh I never knew that but I am so glad and thankful that AKC is taking that stand. Which explains why the "cockapoo" which has been around the longest of the desginer dogs will never be a breed and recognized.

I applaud AKC for this.


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## Eskifon Lover (Mar 10, 2007)

The hybrid dogs do not need AKC as we have the American Canine Hybrid Club (ACHC). Look it up. It exists. The purpose of the hybrids is to get the best possible traits of the 2 purebreds. 

Every dog in a sense is a hybrid since over the years they have been bred down into their breeds. There were not so many types of terriers in existence 500 years ago. The same can be said about rottweilers. Per dog breed info center- "The Rottweiler is descended from the Italian Mastiff" So it is a hydrid of the Mastiff. And every dog is a hybrid of a wolf. Its called evolution. Scientific research have stated that many purebreds have mulitple issues due their in-breeding. The next evolution of dog breeding is upon us people and it is the hydrids. You need to enbrace it. This issue can go on for years. It sounds to to me kinda of like the same argument our pathetic president used with stem cell research that has caused many people not to receive the care the needed. All the breeders of the hybrids are trying to do is experiment with science and see what can be accomplished. There is nothing wrong with that. Science is a wonderful thing. There are alot of AKC breeders out there that are breeding hybrids for ACHC at the same time and are not doing it for money. Since purchading my hybrid (which was not from a good breeder- bas choice, did not have enought info at the time, fell in love with her right away, didn't care what she was), I have met a few breeder that are doing it for the research. They have learned alot, especially involving genetic diseases and hip dysplasia among german shepherds.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

Like ACHC is a "real" registry - its just another one of those that puppymills and backyard breeders use. It doesn't mean a thing. You are fooling yourself if you believe its real.

Anyone can start a registry. Doesn't mean its a good registry or anything more then a money making outfit. ACHC doesn't hold shows, there is no standards for the "breeds" it registers, etc. I'm really sorry you belive in the fake registries.

You have a mixed breed, mutt or whatever you choose to call him. You like him, that's great. Neuter him (if he's not done) and love him.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

"Its called evolution. " No it's not. Evolution is natural selection. No offense to pug owners, but do you think a pug was the result of natural selection?

I would be interested in some insight into the how the AKC breed recognition process works from someone here that knows. (PLEASE don't make me go back to Google.) I'm more than just curious. The Plott hound was developed starting in about 1750 (from the bloodhound and cur) and was AKC recognized, I believe, just this year. Why is it a real breed now and not five years ago or 100 years ago?

BTW, Esther doesn't care. She hasn't booked her trip to NYC for the Westminster show. She's waiting outside for me to take her to the dogpark, and she's thinking, "I'll bet he's on that friggin' computer again."


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Eskifon Lover said:


> The hybrid dogs do not need AKC as we have the American Canine Hybrid Club (ACHC). Look it up. It exists. The purpose of the hybrids is to get the best possible traits of the 2 purebreds.
> 
> Every dog in a sense is a hybrid since over the years they have been bred down into their breeds. There were not so many types of terriers in existence 500 years ago. The same can be said about rottweilers. Per dog breed info center- "The Rottweiler is descended from the Italian Mastiff" So it is a hydrid of the Mastiff. And every dog is a hybrid of a wolf. Its called evolution. Scientific research have stated that many purebreds have mulitple issues due their in-breeding. The next evolution of dog breeding is upon us people and it is the hydrids. You need to enbrace it. This issue can go on for years. It sounds to to me kinda of like the same argument our pathetic president used with stem cell research that has caused many people not to receive the care the needed. All the breeders of the hybrids are trying to do is experiment with science and see what can be accomplished. There is nothing wrong with that. Science is a wonderful thing. There are alot of AKC breeders out there that are breeding hybrids for ACHC at the same time and are not doing it for money. Since purchading my hybrid (which was not from a good breeder- bas choice, did not have enought info at the time, fell in love with her right away, didn't care what she was), I have met a few breeder that are doing it for the research. They have learned alot, especially involving genetic diseases and hip dysplasia among german shepherds.


OMG, I could have a field day picking this one apart, but much of this has alreasy been discussed. LOL, dogs are hybrids of wolves? LOL! I'm sorry to laugh but I recommend a few biology courses for you to understand why I am, because with these kinds of ideas we'll soon be breeding with chimps so we can swing in trees better. A hybrid registry, lol. No wait, experiments! They're experimenting with hybrid dogs, lol. I can't wait for that peeless/pooless pooch from a hybrid! I won't hold my breath.


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## Eskifon Lover (Mar 10, 2007)

You must not have any education. I acutally have a degree in Molecular Biology. More than you probably have. I am guessing all you got is a high scholl diploma with a purebred so you can say your dog was sired by so and so when all it really is a breeder that abusing dogs by traveling around the country or world putting it in dog shows not allowing it to be a dog grooming it, making it standi in awful positions, and having it bred with other dogs that are abused in the same way all in the name of bosting your ego. You peole make me sick. You all feel that your dogs are better because they are purebreds. I am gay and can't amrry becuase peole like say you are better than me. Just from reading your responses on here regarding dogs and your issues regarding the "master race". I can see why you religious right have the issues you do.

And with the above relpy. It is the last one that I will ever write on this forum. I can see that you al are narrow minded in your viewpoint of your purebreds and feel that you will never change your mind on that fact. All the discusion. 

The discussion I was trying to invoke was to get you all to think outside of the box regarding purebreds and hybrids. But I can now see that is not the case. It saddens me to see that some people will never accept a hybrid for anyting more than a mutt. There are many people that do not like the purebred and find the hybrids cute. They like the fact of the set mixes more than accidental mizxes. By tat, I am not saying that one is better than the other. As long as te animal is loved is all tat matters. It does not matter if they ave a pedigree, are AKC approved, ACHC approved, or are accidental, as long as they are loed. There are so many animals out there need loved and I see some of you would rather not have them if they are not purebreds. Not saying that most of you are that way, but I can see that same are. The whole hybrid phase is an odd concept to grasp for same, but so is transgender. Remember. Love is all these animals need, not fighting and I can see that I was involveds in it and I apologize.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Yes, it's probably a good idea to leave before you end up banned for your continuing insults. BTW, Elsa's a rescue with no papers, and I could care less if your gay. And yes, a high school diploma is all I have, lol. I think you just answered my stupid question of when do pigs fly. Laughable.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> There are so many animals out there need loved and I see some of you would rather not have them if they are not purebreds.


I'm really glad you realize that. There is a tremendous amount of dogs out there that need love; on the streets, in shelters, in abusive homes - it seems rediculous to charge exorbidant prices for a poorly bred dog just because it's a "cute" hybrid, when there are so many dogs out there who need our help. Herein lies the basis for alot of our argument, not because we think our purebreds are better.

Sure, I show dogs. But I also work in rescue and volunteer at Humane Societies. I love purebreds. But then I again I love dogs altogether. Just because I'm an advocate for responsible breeding practices and responsible ownership, doesn't mean I scorn at mutts. Most of us flinch in disgust at the idea of someone running out to get the latest, greatest fad when there are dogs getting SLAUGHTERED because someone decided breeding dogs was easy, or that because their dog was purebred, hybrid, green, red or blue, it was acceptable to breed them.

Call me fanatic, but I don't rest easily knowing that people are hopping on the bandwagon and breeding hybrid dogs and calling themselves responsible breeders while people are giggling to themselves and saying they're "cute."

Here's cute for you:

" Every year in the United States, an estimated 5 million animals lose their lives in shelters because they are homeless. That is one pet life lost every 6.5 seconds.
The pet overpopulation epidemic is so staggering that for every animal born in the United States to have a home each and every human being would have to own 6 dogs and 9 cats. So, in actuality a family of four... 2 parents and 2 small children would have to own 24 dogs and 36 cats. It costs U.S. taxpayers an estimated 2 billion each year to round up, house, kill and dispose of homeless animals. "


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I'm curious just what the relation is to someone caring about and supporting rescue and responsible breeding, and being religious right wing, in support of a "master race," and anti-gay?

I also wonder if reference to a "master race" is close enough to invoke Goodwin's Law?


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## Ginny01OT (Dec 3, 2006)

I agree totally. Not to mention that poodles have certain health issues specific to their breed and labs have certain health issues specific to their breed. When you cross the two you have double the amount of health issues that may pose a problem in the future. Unfortunately, as long as people are willing to pay for a mutt there will be people out their willing to make a buck.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Eskifon Lover said:


> I acutally have a degree in Molecular Biology.


I have a degree in marine geology, so I feel qualified to tell you that you have rocks in your head.

People that want to bring human sexuality, religion and politics into a discussion about dogs have some issues that need to be handled elsewhere. I think the moderators have exercised more patience than can be expected.

Nobody here is bashing mixed breeds. Most of us have them and love them. But calling my Plott hound mix a Plottweiler does not make her a legitimate breed or justify trying to make more of them and sell them for a premium price just because she's damned cute.

The day after we brought her home from the shelter, we took her to my vet and had her spayed. That's the responsible thing to do with mutts, or with any dog who is not going to be shown or bred by someone who knows what they are doing.

Honestly, I read your posts and was going to cut you a bit of slack because I thought you must surely be twelve years old. Now I've gone and insulted 12-year-olds and you've insulted molecular biologists.

Here's a tip: If you're trying to dazzle us with your education, run your posts through a spell check before you hit that submit button.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> I have a degree in marine geology, so I feel qualified to tell you that you have rocks in your head.


...

LOL.

<3


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

> BTW, Esther doesn't care. She hasn't booked her trip to NYC for the Westminster show. She's waiting outside for me to take her to the dogpark, and she's thinking, "I'll bet he's on that friggin' computer again."


Ron, You're a real case, I'm bound to say it! 

Eskifon Lover-So you have a degree in Biology...whoopee! I have one in Electrical Engineering...big deal. At least it taught me how to spell. However, this forum isn't about education, it's about a love for our canine buddies. Neither do I see how your being "gay" has anything to do with all this. I sure wouldn't have plastered that over the Internet but, I'm not going there.

There's nothing wrong with mixed breeds because it's going to happen and we can't stop it. Lady dog develops a case of the "heats" and some male dog is going to tread water to find her. It's been going on for centuries, but; to purposely mix a Cocker Spaniel with a Poodle is totally irresponsible to me..it's like a Frankenstein experiment..."hmmmm-wonder what this will turn up?" My Katie was a mix of about 75% Pembroke Corgi and 25%American Eskimo. How do I know that? Simply by her characteristics of short legs, long body and foxy face that are inheritant in the Corgi but part of her looks and the tail were AE. She was the best dog I'll ever have. No behavioral problems, listened to all you said, came when called and just loved everybody. She had no aggressive traits toward humans or animals and loved to play. I don't condemn the mutt it's the purposeful breeding I frown on. 



> Here's cute for you:
> 
> " Every year in the United States, an estimated 5 million animals lose their lives in shelters because they are homeless. That is one pet life lost every 6.5 seconds.
> The pet overpopulation epidemic is so staggering that for every animal born in the United States to have a home each and every human being would have to own 6 dogs and 9 cats. So, in actuality a family of four... 2 parents and 2 small children would have to own 24 dogs and 36 cats. It costs U.S. taxpayers an estimated 2 billion each year to round up, house, kill and dispose of homeless animals. "


Amen and amen!! Well said and very sad, indeed.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

There was an interesting piece on National Geographic a few years ago. It was study of feral dog populations in various parts of the world. 

It seems that, within a very few generations, feral dogs everywhere start to look remarkably similar. They are lean and long-legged, they have upright ears for better hearing and long snouts for improved respiration. 

In short, they become dingos. These are Mother Nature's designer dogs and THAT is evolution.

They look like this:










Not like this:


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## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

Holy cow eskifon lover.......take it down a notch. Just because some people are bothered by the fact that people are breeding their dogs to get these designer breeds and then not realizing how difficult it is to breed dogs doesn't mean they are horrible people. And where the heck did the gay and religious and "master race" crap come into play? It drives me up the effing wall when I hear people say things like "oh this is Candy she is a rottiepoo" instead of rotteweiller poodle cross and I am not a bad person, I don't hate mixed breed dogs or gay people or religious people etc. 
The point people are trying to make is that you cannot call yourself a responsible breeder is you are taking two different breeds of dogs and crossing them and then slapping a name you made up on them and sell them for thousands of dollars. It isn't fair to the thousands of dogs who end up in pound or euthanized because there are no homes for them. 
And also I don't think Keno's Mom said she thought eskifons were ugly just to piss you off, I think she said it because it is her personal opinion. My personal opinion is that poodles are ugly and so are brussels griffons but I won't go out of my to cross the street and walk right up to a person with one and say "oo excsue me sir/maam.....your dog is SOOOO ugly, ok bye bye now." That is what we call an opinion and in your wonderful country the US of A and in my wonderful country called Canada and many other countries around this BIG WIDE FULL OF OPINIONS AND DIFFERENCES world ALL PEOPLE can have an opinion. Its a wondeful thing.


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## MaxsMom (Mar 11, 2007)

Yikes! I read "most" of this thread... I'm a "designer dog" owner. I have a 12 weeks old cockapoo. I did get him from a breeder. I don't agree that people are "ignorant" because they may choose one of these specific dogs. I think they are only "ignorant" if they do not RESEARCH the type of dog they are getting. I did pay a decent amount for my little guy, but he also came with his crate, 1st set of shots and 2 year health guarantee. I had him checked out by my vet the 1st day I brought him home. He may be a mutt to you, but he's got my heart and that's all that matters! People like different types of dogs and pets. Too each is their own. My breeder did give me registration papers with him, but in no way led me to believe he was recognized by any organization as purebreed, even though his parents were. Like I said, we all are attracted to and like different things. This little guy fits me and my household perfectly.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

MaxsMom said:


> I think they are only "ignorant" if they do not RESEARCH the type of dog they are getting.


 Currently the AKC recognizes somewhere in the magnitude of 153 different breeds. The FCI also recognizes somewhere in the magnitude of 335 different breeds. Surely, you did not complete your research before buying a cockapoo. Surely in your research you came to understand that cockapoo breeders are only in it to meet a demand that turns a profit. That's unfair to all the unplanned cockapoos, mutts, and purebreds sitting on a euthanasia table. I don't mean to be rude, I'm sure you are a wonderful well intentioned dog owner, but the time to advocate buying cockapoos is not now. Nor may it ever be.


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## MaxsMom (Mar 11, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Currently the AKC recognizes somewhere in the magnitude of 153 different breeds. The FCI also recognizes somewhere in the magnitude of 335 different breeds. Surely, you did not complete your research before buying a cockapoo. Surely in your research you came to understand that cockapoo breeders are only in it to meet a demand that turns a profit. That's unfair to all the unplanned cockapoos, mutts, and purebreds sitting on a euthanasia table. I don't mean to be rude, I'm sure you are a wonderful well intentioned dog owner, but the time to advocate buying cockapoos is not now. Nor may it ever be.


No, I did do my research. I did a lot of research on the personality traits and temperment on both the cocker and the poodle. I decided this was the type of dog I wanted and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm just not interested in the AKC or having a "show dog". I'm not going to apologize for that. Like I said, people are always going to have an eye for a certain thing. Why should I get a purebread if that's really not what I want? Everyone is going to have their arguement on this, and I'm just giving my opinion.


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

MaxsMom said:


> Why should I get a purebread if that's really not what I want? Everyone is going to have their arguement on this, and I'm just giving my opinion.


You dont have to get a purebred, but for a mix you can always check shelters and rescues instead of heading to "breeders" for mixed breed dogs. 

By purchasing a mix from someone who puts a male and female together with little or no regard, and doesnt bat an eye about the thousands of perfectly healthy dogs in shelters dyeing DAILY. Taps a rediculous price on the pups as well as a nifty little name to make the dog sound like a breed. It adds to the problem.

Its supply and demand.
As long as there is a demad for mixed breed dogs and there are people out there who are willing to pay alot for them. 

The "breeders" will keep pumping them out. 
Its basic common sence, the point people are trying to get across here.

Take a look here and see it for yourself. There are MANY "cockapoo's" looking for loving homes right now. I dont see why anyone would "fuel the fire" these byb ers have burning and lead them to think its alright to do what they are doing.
http://search.petfinder.com/search/search.cgi


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

MaxsMom said:


> No, I did do my research. I did a lot of research on the personality traits and temperment on both the cocker and the poodle. I decided this was the type of dog I wanted and there is nothing wrong with that. I'm just not interested in the AKC or having a "show dog". I'm not going to apologize for that. Like I said, people are always going to have an eye for a certain thing. Why should I get a purebread if that's really not what I want? Everyone is going to have their arguement on this, and I'm just giving my opinion.


I'm glad you have an opinion, and I'm sorry if I find your opinion weak. Because in your research about hybrids you must have understood that you can't predict what dominant traits the hybrid offspring will have. You must have also come to realize that puppies of all different temperament types and personality occur from the birth of any litter, purebred or otherwise. Temperament and personality are largely set by training and early socialization. I mean, if your happy with paying that kind of money for a dog with nothing to compare it's quality to, that's fine I guess if you really don't know what you want. How do you research something without having a standard to compare it to on top of not knowing what you want, puzzles me, and I certainly would not advocate others to do the same.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

TO ESKIFON:
I have been involved in Rottweilers for 15 glorious years. All that is officially known in regards to orgins of the breed are stated as follows: (taken directly from the ARC website, so as not to misquote) :
"The Rottweiler is said to be descended from the drover dogs of ancient Rome. These mastiff-type dogs accompanied the Roman Legions across the Alps herding their cattle and guarding their camps. One such camp, on the banks of the Neckar River in what is now southern Germany, was the origin of the town of Rottweil (named for the red tile roofs of the villas built by the Romans). Through the mid-1800's, the cattle trade flourished in Rottweil, as did the Rottweiler Metzgerhund (butcher dog), who drove the cattle to market and returned with the filled purses of their masters around their necks. As rail transportation became the primary means of bringing cattle to market, the dogs were used less frequently. Legend has it that by 1905 there was but one Rottweiler left in the town of Rottweil. By the early 1900's though, the Rottweiler gained popularity as a police dog. Several Clubs were formed, and in 1921 united as the Allgemeiner Deutscher Rottweiler Klub (ADRK). In 1931, the first Rottweiler was admitted to the AKC Stud Book. Through the 1970's, the Rottweiler was a fairly uncommon dog in the United States, ranking in the middle of AKC registered breeds in terms of number of dogs registered. In the early 1980's the Rottweiler began a meteoric rise in popularity, and has been the second most popular AKC breed since 1992. "
Thank goodness we are no longer in the top ten most popular breeds 


Dogs are NOT decended from wolves. ESKIFON, you have a DANGEROUSLY PETA minded mentality regarding those of us that breed responsibly and choose to compete in conformation/performance events. I've just returned this afternoon from a dog show, where YESTERDAY individuals of your way of thinking were going around trying to "free" several dogs from their crates! So you can take your ANIMAL RIGHTEST propaganda along with your other deluded misgivings and find another list as far as I'm concerned. 


For anyone that doesn't know, every recognized AKC breed has a parent club. That parent club (in this case the American Rottweiler Club) is responsible for that breed's standard of perfection (or ideal). The AKC DOES NOT write the standards for the breeds it recognizes. 

When folks refer to "new breeds" being recognized, they aren't new breeds at all. The parent club makes the decision as to whether or not to APPLY for recognition. The breed must be already recognized by another AKC recognized registry (ie. foreign, FCI). The process can be rather lengthy and more info can be found on AKC's website, under FSS www.akc.org 

Anyways, as always, just trying to be helpful....and whether or not an individual chooses a purebred (NOT PUREBREAD, one of my HUGE pet peeves), or a mixed breed, please do right by your dogs and love them all the days of their lives.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

I came across this website and forum while searching on the web for my breed of hybrids and cannot comprehend the attitudes from all of you about purebreds and hybrids. It appears to me that some you like one and some like the other. There is no point is saying which is better as you can see by the previous posts that no one will ever win the argument. All this is doing is irritating each other. I picked my hybrid (puggle- pug and beagle) because I like both and could don’t decide which I liked better. I went to rescues, pounds, and the SPCA, but none had a pet that called out to me saying you are my human. Those wit purebreds should not criticize those with hybrids and those with hybrids should not do the same with the purebreds. I read all the posts including the ones from Eskifon Lover. I actually understood what he or she was trying to say. He or she was playing both sides and getting the conversation going for entertainment value. Also his or her posts had a hidden message of love the animal for the animal and not for the pedigree. The way it was written was wrong, but I actually know people like that who incite drama trying to prove a point that love should overcome it all. I think we all need to sit back and think a lot about the animals. Some of you think that hybrid breeding is wrong, but you are not the judge of others and those who think otherwise need to understand that the world is full of different opinions and without those different opinions, life would suck. There are many reasons for the hybrids, some may be right and some may be wrong- who cares. Let us just love our animals. We each want what we want. Like I said before, I knew what breeds I liked and I knew that when the right dog saw me and said to me “Hey you are my human”- that is all that matters. For me, it was a hybrid. To those who think otherwise. Its ok. My dog and I will still play with you in the dog park.


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

hybridowner said:


> I came across this website and forum while searching on the web for my breed of hybrids and cannot comprehend the attitudes from all of you about purebreds and hybrids. It appears to me that some you like one and some like the other. There is no point is saying which is better as you can see by the previous posts that no one will ever win the argument. All this is doing is irritating each other. I picked my hybrid (puggle- pug and beagle) because I like both and could don’t decide which I liked better. I went to rescues, pounds, and the SPCA, but none had a pet that called out to me saying you are my human. Those wit purebreds should not criticize those with hybrids and those with hybrids should not do the same with the purebreds. I read all the posts including the ones from Eskifon Lover. I actually understood what he or she was trying to say. He or she was playing both sides and getting the conversation going for entertainment value. Also his or her posts had a hidden message of love the animal for the animal and not for the pedigree. The way it was written was wrong, but I actually know people like that who incite drama trying to prove a point that love should overcome it all. I think we all need to sit back and think a lot about the animals. Some of you think that hybrid breeding is wrong, but you are not the judge of others and those who think otherwise need to understand that the world is full of different opinions and without those different opinions, life would suck. There are many reasons for the hybrids, some may be right and some may be wrong- who cares. Let us just love our animals. We each want what we want. Like I said before, I knew what breeds I liked and I knew that when the right dog saw me and said to me “Hey you are my human”- that is all that matters. For me, it was a hybrid. To those who think otherwise. Its ok. My dog and I will still play with you in the dog park.


I dont think anyone on here is against mixed breed dogs themselves but the vast majority of people that are breeding them with no thought to the breeding apart from money. The dogs are rarely cared for or health tested, did your breeder do all the health tests for each particular breed?

You say its not for us to judge whether breeding crosses is wrong but surely its up to all of us to ensure the breeders are ethical and Im afraid very few are.

Yes we want what we want but does that actually give us the right to? If that right means that dogs end up suffering at the hands of puppy farmers, byb's and the like?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I'm glad you're happy with your puggle. They ARE very cute.

I'm sorry to say they are also a good example of the problem with this kind of cross-breeding. The few puggles I've known inherited the beagle's desire to run and the pug's difficulty in breathing to support that activity. The result is a dog that's always wheezing.

I'm sure they're not all like that, but it's a crap shoot when breeders play these games. You can never be sure what you'll get.

Nobody wants to make mixed breed owners feel bad about their dogs. They just want to make people really think long and hard before buying one from a breeder.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

Actually the breeder I used breeds AKC pugs and AKC beagles. I tured the facility, it was not a puppy mill. The reason for her for the puggle was for a change- just that. All her pups are born and raised in her house

For the rottie owner, I read your post. You seem full of hate. What you said to the other poster was not nice. You need to apologize. PETA people have their causes too just like you. Both of you that are acting mean to each oter need to get outside help. Not on here- THIS is about the pets, not your ISSUES.


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## Elijah (Dec 30, 2006)

> PETA people have their causes too just like you.


Yep-They sure do...like trying to keep the dog out of domesticated homes. From the lips of PETA and Animal Rights...


"It is time we demand an end to the misguided and abusive concept of animal ownership. The first step on this long, but just road would be ending the concept of pet ownership." Elliot Katz from In Defense of Animals

Which given some of the responses here, shows how successfully this idea has been implanted. Now we go to the next step:

"Liberating our language by eliminating the word "pet" is the first step ... In an ideal society where all exploitation and oppression has been eliminated, it will be NJARA's policy to oppose the keeping of animals as "pets."

"Let us allow the dog to disappear from our brick and concrete jungles - from our firesides, from the leather nooses and chains by which we enslave it. The cat, like the dog, must disappear ... We should cut the domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering and more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to exist." John Bryant PETA

(Puts new illumination on mandatory spay/neuter legislation in that last one doesn't it? )

Two from PETA's statement on companion animals:

"As John Bryant has written in his book Fettered Kingdoms, they [pets] are like slaves, even if well-kept slaves."

"In a perfect world, all other than human animals would be free of human interference, and dogs and cats would be part of the ecological scheme."

So, if you have a dog, cat, mouse, horse, or flea, you are abusing them by domestication and are therefore wrong in keeping them.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

I will not apologize for my beliefs. But people need to be aware of that kind of attitude that Eskifon has. Peta's belief is that no animal should be owned by man. Dog, cat, elephant, tiger...cows...you name it! To their warped way of thinking, we (the RESPONSIBLE DOG PPL) Are the ultimate evil. All animals deserve to be free, live free , breed freely, and die free according to them. 

You did not buy from a RESPONSIBLE puggle breeder...there is no such thing. It's disgusting to me that just because the "breeder wanted a change", they chose to mate two breeds just for funzies. 

And for those breeders that have actually had some basic OFA testing, here's a newsflash: lessening a genetic problem does not occur over a period of a few years...or a few hundred litters. 

To answer your comment, "that I seem to be full of hate"-----
YES I AM!!!! ESPECIALLY to hypocrites like peta and hsus and the BACK YARD BREEDERS WHO GET BORED AND DECIDE THEY ARE GENETIC SCIENTISTS.

THANK YOU, ELIJAH!!!!!!!
I hit submit without finishing my thoughts....

But you summed it up BEAUTIFULLY! 

YES PET OWNERS, extremists such as peta and hsus (I have proof of hsus involvement in the God awful Louisville KY ordinance...don't get me started!)
are behind the largest part of the mandatory spay/neuter , bsl legislation that keeps infesting our cities.

I am doing a presentation on this very subject this week at our kennel club meeting.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

hybridowner said:


> The reason for her for the puggle was for a *change*- just that.


I think you meant 'charge'. I would agree with that, puggles make an easy buck for breeders. A good breeder must do everything they can to prove their breeding program is producing what it is suppose to be producing...period. Hybrid breeders can't do that, and I will not support irresponsible breeding...period. And I frankly don't think I need outside help to distinguish the difference between what is and what is not responsible, thank you.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

I talked to Esther about PETA. She says she has no particular interest in being freed from my benevolent despotism. 

She tried the freedom thing for a couple of weeks after her previous owner cut her loose and she didn't really like it all that much.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

When my dog was "freed" from his previous owner, he lost an eye. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

For those that are curious about how a rare breed/new breed becomes recognized by AKC 
here is a helpful link: http://www.akc.org/reg/fss_details.cfm

For those that would like to read now, here it is copied directly 

Foundation Stock Service® Program 

The American Kennel Club created the Foundation Stock Service® (FSS®) to answer the needs of today's rare breed fanciers. The Foundation Stock Service® is an optional record keeping service for all purebred breeds not currently registrable with the American Kennel Club. 

Goals of the Foundation Stock Service® 

The AKC is committed to taking the necessary action to ensure the continuation of purebred dogs. In accord with this objective, the AKC created the FSS® record-keeping service to allow rare breed fanciers to continue their commitment to the improvement of their breed. 

One of the most serious concerns for any breed is the integrity of its pedigree and ownership records. For many fanciers, the ultimate goal is full AKC recognition. There are several criteria that must be met in order to achieve this plateau. Often, the biggest hurdle is creating and maintaining accurate records.

With the FSS®, the AKC staff of experts will maintain the pedigree and ownership records in addition to a stud book. The AKC has more than 100 years of experience protecting the integrity of registries for purebred dogs.

Fanciers who record their dogs with the FSS® can rest assured that the AKC will maintain quality stud books for their breeds.

The Benefits of Enrolling in FSS® 

The Foundation Stock Service® allows purebred rare breeds to continue to develop while providing them with the security of a reliable and reputable avenue to maintain their records. 

Foundation Stock Service® is not a requirement for fanciers of a breed who want to achieve full AKC recognition, however, select FSS® breeds may now compete in Companion Events. Breeds must have 150 dogs with three-generation pedigrees recorded in the FSS®, a breed standard, and an active breed club in order to compete. Recording your dog in FSS® can help catapult your breed into AKC competition.

While the recording of a dog in FSS® does not constitute AKC recognition, it does provide the avenue to compete in the exciting world of Companion Events.

Furthermore, those FSS® breeds that become eligible to compete in Companion Events have the opportunity to apply to participate in AKC Performance Events that pertain to the breed's original purpose.

How Breeds Enter the FSS®

The American Kennel Club considers requests to enter FSS® from breed clubs or individual fanciers of a breed. Those wishing to pursue recording with FSS® must: 
Fill out a questionnaire for new breeds. 
Provide a written breed history documenting the distinct breed over a period of many decades. The source of the historical information must also be provided. 
Provide an official written breed standard, indicating the origin of that standard. If the standard differs from the official breed standard in the breed country of origin please specify those differences. 
Provide photographs of the breed, including puppies and adults, as well as both dogs and bitches. If there are different accepted types in the breed, photographs of each type should be included and labeled as such. 
The AKC only considers adding new breeds to the FSS® or its registry upon request. The breed must be recognized by an acceptable foreign or domestic registry.

The FSS® is not open to "rare" breeds that are a variation of an AKC-registrable breed or the result of a combination of two AKC-recognized breeds. This includes and is not limited to differences such as size (over and under), coat type, coat colors, and coat colors and/or types that are disqualifications from Conformation Events by AKC breed standards.

FSS® Recording and Certificates 

When a dog is recorded in the Foundation Stock Service®, it is issued a numbered FSS® Certificate. This certificate indicates that the dog is the product of a purebred sire and dam of the same breed. In some cases, a breeder will determine that a dog should be recorded with "limited" status. A limited FSS® Certificate indicates that no offspring of the dog is eligible to be recorded in the FSS®. 

Dogs with two-generation pedigrees, one-generation pedigrees or names of sire and dam only, are eligible for enrollment in FSS® as the foundation stock of future generations.

FSS® Certificates will be issued to all dogs enrolled in FSS®. 

Note: Any dog that has less than a three-generation pedigree will not move into full AKC recognition.

What is next? Guidelines For Registering a New Breed 

If the goal for your breed is AKC recognition please consider the action items below after your breed is in the FSS®. The recognition process begins with admission of the breed to the Miscellaneous Class. 
Form a strong national breed club and encourage fanciers nationwide to join and get involved. A national breed club with representative membership of about 100 active households is expected for a breed to be placed in the Miscellaneous Class. The amount of active households needed can vary depending on the number of dogs recorded in the FSS®. 
Form some active committees such as a rescue committee or a health committee, put on shows, and publish a quarterly newsletter. A committed AKC liaison is also an integral part of any breed club seeking recognition, and keeping AKC updated on the club's various activities provides documentation of the fanciers' dedication to full AKC recognition. Current officer and membership lists must be on file with the AKC. 
Encourage other fanciers to record their dogs with FSS®. A minimum of 300-400 dogs with complete three-generation pedigrees, owned by many different individuals residing in various parts of the nation, must be recorded as part of the criteria for approval to move to the Miscellaneous Class. The more dogs you record with the FSS®, the more committed AKC believes the fanciers are to achieving full recognition. If the national breed club has not submitted its breed registry for entry into FSS®, the club is required to do so when moving to the Miscellaneous Class. 
Stay in contact. The AKC moves forward with recognition of breeds whose fanciers want the breed to be recognized. Maintaining regular contact with FSS® staff will show your enthusiasm for and commitment to AKC recognition. 
Breeds remain in the Miscellaneous Class one to three years and are evaluated at the end of each year. When all criteria are met the information is presented to the AKC Board of Directors for approval to move to full AKC recognition and breed conformation competition. 

© 2007 American Kennel Club® (AKC Copyright and Trademark Statement) 
**********************************************************


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

NO responsible breeder of purebred dogs takes 2 different breeds and breeds them together "for a change" - doesn't matter one bit if she has an AKC pug and and AKC beagle - what she is doing is ETHICALLY WRONG.

If she shows her purebreds, I'm sure the other dog breeders would not be pleased at her money making idea just to breed mixed breed dogs on purpose. She might not have a "puppy mill" but she would be considered a backyard breeder or an unethical breeder - but certainly not a GOOD breeder at all.

She's just doing it for profit. I'm sure she doesn't insist those mixed breeds should be neutered or spayed either!

I agree with Ron about the fact you have a beagle (hound who loves running) and a pug who is NOT built for endurance and the resulting dogs are health hazards in the making!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Keno's Mom said:


> NO responsible breeder of purebred dogs takes 2 different breeds and breeds them together "for a change" - doesn't matter one bit if she has an AKC pug and and AKC beagle - what she is doing is ETHICALLY WRONG.


And as we all know, any breeder who would do that is violating an AKC rule. If they are violating an AKC rule it begs the question, _what other rules are they violating in their breding program? _Responsible breeders make responsible choices, and irresponsible breeders make puggles.


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## ChRotties (Mar 8, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> [/I]Responsible breeders make responsible choices, and irresponsible breeders make puggles.



I love it! That's gonna be my new motto!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

CHRotties, thanks for the info about the AKC breed recognition process. That's exactly what I was looking for, but Google has been threatening to start charging me by the search.

It sounds like my plans to cross a Mexican Hairless, a schnauzer and beagle and have the AKC recognize my new Bald Schneagle is gonna take more years than I have left.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

Why does it matter to you people who breeds what? IS it really any of your business what other people want? I am saying No


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

It matters because breeders are responding to whims and quick profit at the expense of the dogs. 

Too many of the experiments go horribly wrong and the dogs end up dumped. There are already too many dogs and not enough people who want them. So perfectly good pets are euthanized every day to make room at the shelters.

There are plenty of really bad breeders cranking out purebreds, too, and we're not any happier about them. This is why you end up with deaf Dalmatians and neurotic labs.

If you read enough of this forum, you'll learn that, all too often, "what other people want" is a dog that looks just like that cute little dog they saw on Letterman the other night.

If someone wants to buy a particular car because they think it's cute, that's not my business. If they're buying a dog based on the same criteria, it's every dog-lover's business.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

RonE, you are right. I just know that I love my hybrid and get upset when people say its wrong that they were created because without them being created I would not have had the best puppy and best dog that I have ever had. I have had a rough year medically and it was my little hybrid that helped me get over it and when I hear people talking bad about it, it upsets me. I can see the point about overpopulation, etc and understand it. But wish people would not be so harsh.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

This, I understand.

Esther was almost certainly the product of an enterprising little weasel who is breeding Plott hound mixes in Wisconsin and selling them to all takers. A lot of these dogs end up in shelters, or worse, because this is not a dog that most people want to deal with.

I think about the fact that I wouldn't have even heard of Plott hounds if she hadn't ended up in that shelter and I almost certainly wouldn't have spent $1400 or so to get one from a real breeder.

But I also know that I didn't personally put any money into the pockets of the guy that sold her and there's one less good dog in an over-crowded shelter. If it was in my power to track him down and put him out of business, I would do it in a heartbeat.

As long as you understand that getting a dog is not like ordering from the Chinese menu (one from column A, one from column B) and we don't get dogs custom made to our personal specs, we can all get along fine and talk about how to care for them and help them to be good little citizens.

Just between you and me, I think I'd be getting some grief on this board about Plott hounds, except that hardly anybody here has ever seen one. If they were more common I'd probably hear about why they were never intended to be kept as house pets. But that'll be our little secret. 

My point is, people aren't bad-mouthing your particular dog. It's the practice in general that's under fire.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

This is how I look at breeding in general. First when I am breeding I start by asking myself what is the use for the resulting offspring? Then I work my way back. For a cross or Desiner dog there is no real end use. They are bred b/c they look cute. Ok fine. I can name about 160 differnt breeds and verieties that I bet someone thinks are cute and even more in pounds rescues and shelter all over. Cute, color or any other generic reason should not be a reason to breed no matter what it is. dog, cat, cow, horse, does not matter the end product should fit a goal or purpose. If you breed Goldens the end result should be a dog that not only fits the breed standards by terms of looks but also of that of form to function and the personality that a Golden was origianlly bred to have. A willing gentalmans hunting companion. Same with any breed. 

Heidi


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## Kerry (Jan 12, 2007)

To address the topic of "dumping" dogs:
The over-population problem is horrible and our trainer told us that she used to work in a shelter that euthanised 80 dogs per DAY. It's heartbreaking.

I think this forum tends to blame the "designer" dogs for most of this problem. But in fairness, there are way too many Goldens and Labs and Rotties being bred. Lots of greyhounds, too. In fact, I see more of them on Petfinder.com than the little mixed breeds. 
Do we really need more Golden Retrievers in the world when so many are available at shelters or through rescue organizations? All those GR breeders are surely not in the business just to "better the breed". I have a feeling it's to better their pocketbooks just a little. 
I use the GR just as an example because they are running rampant around my area. They look like the perfect dog, but people don't realize how much work and HAIR is involved. They are small, cute puppies and grow into huge, strong animals who demand a tremendous amount of attention. 
I would bet more GRs are given up to shelters than designer dogs. 

RonE, you did mention this earlier...


> There are plenty of really bad breeders cranking out purebreds, too, and we're not any happier about them.


Maybe it's just easier to pick on the maltipoos and the cockapoos because they have such ridiculous-sounding names. 

This thread, though, is combining the designer dog "breeding" issue with the "dumping" issue. It gets all muddled and then nice cockapoo owners like me get accused of causing the over-population problem and being irresponsible. 
You can be fanatical about breeding ethics, that's fine. But don't assume that because I don't share your passion, I will dump my dog in a shelter eventually. 
I feel badly for some posters here who come innocently to find information about wee wee pads and end up with an arrogant lecture because they called their labradoodle a "breed". Why risk alienating a new dog owner who is just trying to learn and be successful?


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

hybridowner said:


> Why does it matter to you people who breeds what? IS it really any of your business what other people want? I am saying No


and its totally your right to not care! But if you read my last post you will see that many people do care about where the dogs come from! You might not care that some people see it as a great way to make money to stick a couple of dogs together with no health tests for either of the breeds, raise the puppies and rest of the breeding stock in horrible conditions but many people do.

I did ask if your breeder had done all the health checks on both breeds, Ive never gotten a straight answer to this question from anyone who owns one of these so called designer dogs.

Finally you say you did your research but how did you know what a cross between a pug and beagle would be like? How could you know if it would suit your life style?


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Perhaps the reason people buy purebreds from reputable breeders is because they want some assurance of the health and disposition of the dog. If you buy a purebred from an inexperienced breeder, or a mixed breed (designer or otherwise) you're rolling the dice and taking a chance.

The fact that a lot of mixed breed owners are very happy with their dogs (and that would include me, since I doubt Esther is all Plott hound) doesn't diminish that fact that a lot of them end up in shelters when they don't work out.

It probably IS unfair to pinpoint the designer dogs (whew, I almost said 'breeds') in this respect since purebreds and mixed breeds without the cute names also get dumped.

Because of the popularity of the breeds, there probably ARE to many inexperienced breeders cranking out Goldens and labs. But I think the number of greyhounds available for adoption has more to do with racing. I have personally never seen a greyhound pup and it's on my list of things to do before I die.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

lurcherloopy said:


> and its totally your right to not care! But if you read my last post you will see that many people do care about where the dogs come from! You might not care that some people see it as a great way to make money to stick a couple of dogs together with no health tests for either of the breeds, raise the puppies and rest of the breeding stock in horrible conditions but many people do.
> 
> I did ask if your breeder had done all the health checks on both breeds, Ive never gotten a straight answer to this question from anyone who owns one of these so called designer dogs.
> 
> Finally you say you did your research but how did you know what a cross between a pug and beagle would be like? How could you know if it would suit your life style?


To answer you question. Yes. She had done health checks on both of her breeds. And she was not charging lots of money for the designer dog. The puggle was actually less than the pug and the beagle. But to me that did not matter. I would have paid for a shelter or rescue dog if a dog there was the one for me. As I stated before, in my case the puggle was the one that looked into my eyes and said you are my human. I did my research on a pug, beagle, and puggle after i met him. There is alot of info on the internet for all 3. My lifestyle was perfect for both pugs and beagles. Like I said before I wanted a dog for a companion and would have been happy with any one. 

Now I am in the process of going to shelters and the spca to adopt, yes adopt a brother or sister for him. This time around, I decided it was not about me, but about Lucky. So every weekend, we go to the rescues, etc and look. So hopefully soon, he will have a bother or sister and you know what he won't care if its a purebred, a hydrid, a designer dog, a mixed breed, or a mutt. To him and to me, all that matters is that we are a family.

All of this name calling of breeeds is giving me a headache. There are arguments for both. People will always ahve their opinions and some will go off the deep end regarding it. Thats your issues. One of the other posts got it right- there are bad breeders of purebreds also. So I am thinking we all need just keep our opinions to ourselves, head to Petsmart, get a toy, go play with our purebred, hybrid, whatever, and love them because they love you no matter what


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

This thread is about designer dogs if you haven't noticed. By what I believe is and is not a reputable breeder, designer dog breeders aren't even close. But again, this a designer dog thread, so yes, the focus is on designer dog breeders. If someone where to start a thread about purebred breeders and what makes them also irresponsible, I assure you much of the criticism I have for designer dog breeders I have for irresponsible purebred breeders. It really is about how the breeder goes about their program. It's never been about the dog, and there's very little blame to place on the owner when compared to the breeder. The reason designer dog breeders are blamed for the over population problem is because as you all recognize we have too many dogs and too many breeds sitting in shelters today, why add more breeds, why add more dogs to the growing problem when we can't even control the number of dogs produced today? It doesn't matter if you're a purebred advocate or not, *breeders are assumed irresponsible until proven otherwise*. I have no proof that designer dog breeders are responsible. But I can find proof that a purebred breeder is responsible if I do my homework. That's what needs to be emphasised here. It is about ethics, and by name alone, designer dog breeders have none. The dog is a dog and they all should be loved, just as the owner is the owner and should be loving. Those are the givens. The breeding responsibility is what's in question...at least in my mind.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> This thread is about designer dogs if you haven't noticed. By what I believe is and is not a reputable breeder, designer dog breeders aren't even close. But again, this a designer dog thread, so yes, the focus is on designer dog breeders. If someone where to start a thread about purebred breeders and what makes them also irresponsible, I assure you much of the criticism I have for designer dog breeders I have for irresponsible purebred breeders. It really is about how the breeder goes about their program. It's never been about the dog, and there's very little blame to place on the owner when compared to the breeder. The reason designer dog breeders are blamed for the over population problem is because as you all recognize we have too many dogs and too many breeds sitting in shelters today, why add more breeds, why add more dogs to the growing problem when we can't even control the number of dogs produced today? It doesn't matter if you're a purebred advocate or not, *breeders are assumed irresponsible until proven otherwise*. I have no proof that designer dog breeders are responsible. But I can find proof that a purebred breeder is responsible if I do my homework. That's what needs to be emphasised here. It is about ethics, and by name alone, designer dog breeders have none. The dog is a dog and they all should be loved, just as the owner is the owner and should be loving. Those are the givens. The breeding responsibility is what's in question...at least in my mind.



High five to you. I like what you just said. What had me upset on here where the people that were bad mouthing the owners of the mix breeds, not the breeders. People buy for many reason, some even for more than the name. There must be many cases out there of people who thought they were buying from good breeders, but later found out otherwise. I know I had that problem years ago with a eskimo that I had all the papers, referrals, toured the facility and found out that the breeder was not good. I feel everyone should visit the shelters and rescues first before ever buying from a breeder. I am guilty from buying from a breeder and can't judge those that do, but also know that even a dog brougt from a great breeder can end up in a shelter.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

hybridowner said:


> but also know that even a dog brougt from a great breeder can end up in a shelter.


A great breeder would have a clause in the contract that spells out what should happen if you ever need to surrender the dog. In most cases you are bound by the contract to return the dog to the breeder. If someone surrendered a dog to a shelter without notice, they can be sued by the breeder. Why is this important? It shows that the breeder is tracking their pups. If a dog develops a genetic disorder, the breeder will have a better chance to remedy their breeding program with this knowledge. Its one example that this breeder is trying to improve the breed. Purebreds that are in shelters, and were not returned to the breeder, are from irresponsible breeders too.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

That is really good to know. I never knew that about responsible breeders. The purebred that I got years ago did not have me sign any contract. The one I used for the puggle had me sign one. I tought it was because the breeder was a true animal lover and wanted to make sure she knew where her purebred and mix breeds were at all times. Its amazing what one can learn on here. In the past 2 days, I have learned so much about the issue and think i have come to a conclusion for myself which is for me it doesn't matter if its from a shelter or a rescue, but if I am using a breeder (for a purebred, mixed breed, designer, hybrid, inset new newset name here), I am going to make sure the breeder is respectable. Because no matter what we all want our animals ro be protected and to make sure they come into this world in a loving enviroment. 

BTW, have you seen those sick pictures of this awful pet store called petland that uses a puppy mill. There is none around me, but from internet searches. There are constant protests going on all time. They sell pure and hybrids. It broke my heart to see the pictures.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

hybridowner said:


> BTW, have you seen those sick pictures of this awful pet store called petland that uses a puppy mill. There is none around me, but from internet searches. There are constant protests going on all time. They sell pure and hybrids. It broke my heart to see the pictures.


Elsa's the product of a puppymill. Had she fulfilled the whims of her breeder she would have been auctioned off for the breeder's profit or sold in a pet store. I love Elsa to death, but I despise the way she was created. Had I found her in a pet store, I would have felt very bad for her, and wished I could remove her from that store, but I can't come up with any good reasons to patronize an association that does not care about the dogs we love so much.


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

I've had many dogs over the years - most were mixes, some were purebred; however NONE of the dogs were bought out of a petshop or a backyard breeder. They were adopted from shelters or rescue groups. Our cairn terrier and sheltie were gotten for free from people who didn't want them any more.

Most of us on here are not against the mixed breed dogs (almost everyone has had a mixed breed dog in their life)....we object WHERE you are getting the mixed breed dogs - from the irresponsible breeders and backyard breeders who only want to make money and rip off the general public. Or they see the cute little "designer" in a pet shop - one of the worst places to get a pup.

IMO most people who get designer dogs are impulse buyers or don't really want to take the time to look into rescue groups or shelters. Some of you claim you looked at a shelter and didn't find anything so you went ahead and bought one from an irresponsible breeder. I challange you on how often you checked shelters in your area; how many shelters: how many rescue groups.

I see "designer" dogs ALL the time on Petfinder.com - you really expect us to believe you "tried" all that hard?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Keno's Mom said:


> IMO most people who get designer dogs are impulse buyers or don't really want to take the time to look into rescue groups or shelters. Some of you claim you looked at a shelter and didn't find anything so you went ahead and bought one from an irresponsible breeder. I challange you on how often you checked shelters in your area; how many shelters: how many rescue groups.
> 
> I see "designer" dogs ALL the time on Petfinder.com - you really expect us to believe you "tried" all that hard?


Have you seen puppies recently? They are their own worst enemy, they are too darn cute. That is part of the problem, but I also believe most dog owners don't have a clue how to get a dog from a responsible resource. It's harder for me to blame the owners because how can you know you're guilty by ignorance if you know not what you're ignorant of. Breeders on the otherhand should know better, and ultimately they are responsible for our over population problem and for fulfilling the 'what's trendy' problem. If designer dogs are wrong, they need a louder voice to persuade buyers to the alternatives.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

I will say this. The contracts that give the breeders right of first refusal will not hold up in a court of law. Yes you can give the option of giveing the dog back to the breeder which is good as it give the buyer an option. however if you (the buyer) choise not to, there is nothing the breeder can do about it even with a contract. They will not hold up. I see these type of contracts all the time and I have even had a simalare contract in court and the person was told by the judge that she was well to put it nicely Crazzy. Was told that no type of contract like that would hold up.

This is why every contract I have is wrighten by a lawyar in the state in which it will be enforced. Cost about $250 but it is money well spent. There is only so much that can be truely covered legally in a contract. You can try but most of the time it will not work. Especially when it comes to property.

Heidi


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## 3212 (Feb 4, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Have you seen puppies recently? They are their own worst enemy, they are too darn cute. That is part of the problem, but I also believe most dog owners don't have a clue how to get a dog from a responsible resource. It's harder for me to blame the owners because how can you know you're guilty by ignorance if you know not what you're ignorant of. Breeders on the otherhand should know better, and ultimately they are responsible for our over population problem and for fulfilling the 'what's trendy' problem. If designer dogs are wrong, they need a louder voice to persuade buyers to the alternatives.


I agree with you Curbside. I have ran into many people that have no idea what the problems are with buying from a petstore, byb or buying a designer dog. I mean our first thought is to call these owners ignorant, but you can't be ignorant if you don't know the problem. I have met many, many people at the dog park who don't even know what a BYB is. It's sad, but I also think that's why it's important for us people who understand the problem to voice it as loud as possible.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> Was told that no type of contract like that would hold up.
> 
> This is why every contract I have is wrighten by a lawyar in the state in which it will be enforced. Cost about $250 but it is money well spent. There is only so much that can be truely covered legally in a contract. You can try but most of the time it will not work. Especially when it comes to property.


Regardless, this is one of the most sensitive aspects of the contract - subtle drafting can drastically affect whether the clause will be enforceable or not. In general, you want to make a "take-back" provision as fair and as clear as possible, with a definitive scheme for when and how the dog is to be returned, the measurement of any value for the dog, and limitations on what the seller will be responsible for.

While such covenenats are not generally favored by law, it is important to never underestimate the "non-legal" value of such clauses - it can often be just as important to the seller if not more so that the buyer unambiguously understands that the seller WANTS the dog back if things do not work out. Simply having an option in writing can often mean a successful, voluntary return of the abandoned dog, aside from any questions regarding the legal enforceability of the clause itself. This is important to any good breeder, as they want to help ensure that their dogs will not end up in shelters, abusive or neglected homes, puppy mills, or other unacceptable situation in the first placement falls through.


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

I agree that it is a good clause to have in a contract. As it shows that the breeder is trying and give the buyer a place to start if they need to find a animal a home quickly. 

One of the dogs I have now is from a similar situation. Although not quite as one would hope. Anyway I ended up taking him as I did not what to see the people who had him shoot him over a chicken.

Heidi


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Your puggle is NOT a hybrid, it's a mixed breed. A hybrid would be a wolf-shepard or Coy dog (coyote mix) as that would mean two different Species that are able to procrate. Such animals have very special needs when it come to how they are raised and socialized. You could go to any animal shelter and find them for a lot less. I would NEVER buy a mixed breed dog from a 'breeder' or a pet store. In fact the ONLY way I would get one from a private indidvidual is if it were an accidental breeding and I only was charged the price of shots and a spay/nueter to adopt aand the parents were spayed/nuetered after the incedent.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

nrhareiner said:


> Anyway I ended up taking him as I did not what to see the people who had him shoot him over a chicken.


Some how I'm not surprised people would do that to a dog. That's crazy!


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

Keno's Mom said:


> IMO most people who get designer dogs are impulse buyers or don't really want to take the time to look into rescue groups or shelters. Some of you claim you looked at a shelter and didn't find anything so you went ahead and bought one from an irresponsible breeder. I challange you on how often you checked shelters in your area; how many shelters: how many rescue groups.
> 
> I see "designer" dogs ALL the time on Petfinder.com - you really expect us to believe you "tried" all that hard?


TO Keno's Mom: When I got my puggle. I searched pet petfinder (my whole state), craigslist ( same thing), went to the the spca in several counties, adoption events, pounds, the paper, and the like for more than 6 months looking at many different puppies, young and adult dogs before finding the one that looked at me and said take me, take me. It broke my heart each and every time I went to an event, rescue, shelter, breeder, or pound becuase I wanted to take each and every one of them. I really did wan't want to buy one. I wanted to adopt as there are way too many that need homes more than money in people's pockets (since my previous experience with a bad breeder of purebreds), but after I saw Lucky and and knew he was the one. I had to think it through and knew he was the one. I see looke daily at petfinder and the others looking for a brother or sister. This time I will only adopt as my money will not go to any breeder, I think Lucky would like it that way


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## nrhareiner (Dec 6, 2006)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Some how I'm not surprised people would do that to a dog. That's crazy!


Ya they where a bit on the touched side that is for sure. Bear is a wolf hybred and one of the best dogs I have owned and I have owned a lot of dogs over the years. He is great with babies of any species. Loves the pups. 

The guy who had got him from these people was a solder and was being deployed and needed to find the dog a home and fast so he took it back to where he got the dog. Well long story short the first time he did something they thought was wrong they wanted to shoot him so I took him and have had him now for about 12 years. He is about 16-17 years old. I think I will have to will him to someone as I think he will out live even me.

Heidi


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> Your puggle is NOT a hybrid, it's a mixed breed. A hybrid would be a wolf-shepard or Coy dog (coyote mix) as that would mean two different Species that are able to procrate.


Carla, I was surpized to find this in Wikipedia:

In biology, hybrid has two meanings.
The first meaning is the result of interbreeding between two animals or plants of different taxa. Hybrids between different species within the same genus are sometimes known as interspecific hybrids or crosses. Hybrids between different sub-species within a species are known as intra-specific hybrids. Hybrids between different genera are sometimes known as intergeneric hybrids. Extremely rare interfamilial hybrids have been known to occur (such as the guineafowl hybrids).

The last meaning of "hybrid" are crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars of a single species. This second meaning is often used in plant and animal breeding.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

It's just another way for people to make $$$$ from a mix.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

I just read about the reason for the first labradoddle. Here is the piece copied and pasted from the web site:

The first Labradoodle was bred by the Australian Guide Dog Association in 1989. The following is an article by the AGDA - 


"The story began in 1988 when our manager of Guide Dogs, was in Hawaii on holiday and met Pat Blum. She told him of her dream to have a Guide Dog but this remained unfulfilled because of her husband's allergy to dog hair. She had heard that Standard Poodles had been trained for Guide Dog work in Australia and asked if their was any chance that this could be tried again.


Thus began the Association's quest to find more non allergic dogs which could be trained for Guide Dog work.


After a long and unsuccessful search for a suitable Standard Poodle, Harley the Standard Poodle was mated with Brandy the female Labrador Retriever with a proven ability to produce Guide Dogs.


The hope was to produce the fine temperament of the Labrador with the non shedding coat of the Poodle. The result of the union was three very cute Labradoodles, Sultan, Sheik and Simon. 


Sheik and Simon did not qualify but Sultan began his Guide Dog training. Samples of hair were flown to Hawaii, and much to Pat's delight, and allergy test showed no reaction.

So you can see there was a reason for some of the designer dogs. IT might have gotten out fo control, but at least this one does make sense


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> It's just another way for people to make $$$$ from a mix.


Huh? By getting a bogus definition of hybrid included in Wikipedia?

You can bet labs were knocking up poodles long before 1988, but nobody had thought to give them a cute, marketable name.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

RonE said:


> You can bet labs were knocking up poodles long before 1988, but nobody had thought to give them a cute, marketable name.


True, but it took a creative person to find a way to help blind people with allergies. So at least now we have an example of a hybrid with a role or job, a job that a pure breed cannot do


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> a job that a pure breed cannot do


Just because a competent Poodle was not found for the job, suddenly they are useless?

Hmm. Interesting.

Maybe we should breed our president to a protegenic woman. We could have wonderful hybrid White House kids. Think of the possibilities.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

MagicToller said:


> Just because a competent Poodle was not found for the job, suddenly they are useless?
> 
> Hmm. Interesting.
> 
> Maybe we should breed our president to a protegenic woman. We could have wonderful hybrid White House kids. Think of the possibilities.


Hey MagicToller- Where did I say Poodles were useless. I never said that. All I was doing was argiung a point that there is was a purpose for a type of a hybrid, but I guess you didn't read the whole thread. Poodles are just as usefull as other dogs, but I have never seen a seeing eye poodle before

Btw, regarding the president. I think we have enough Bushes. We don't need any more of those. LOL. Help control the Bush population , have you George W's family spade or neutered


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Hybridowner, I admire your stamina. You've remained calm under fire and haven't lost your temper.

I've decided you and your mutt are okay.  

(I just know you're going to sleep better with that endorsement.)


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## Wimble Woof (Jan 16, 2007)

I agree with Ron on this one. I do also admire your ability to keep your cool under fire.
I've just been watching from the sidelines, I said my piece and to keep going right now, well... I can only repeat myself so much. In a few more days there will be another hot thread about this particular subject and so on.


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## hybridowner (Mar 11, 2007)

I agree with both of you. You too are allrigt too. I just enjoy debating things. I actually have enjoyed seeing people going on and on, but it is about time for me to surrender myself as I am not sure what else to say. There are arguments for and against. I think this one is going to end up being like abortion, religion, war, science, and the rest. People need to agree to disagree. I have learned to take in knowledge and dispense what I know and make my own judgments. People can be openminded, narrowminded, or so where in the middle. In this case. Its not abotu any of that. Its about breeders, money, and the welfare of the animals. All I can say is love your pets, adopt if you can. If you chose to have a puppy, find one you like and from what I have learned make sure the breeder is not in it for the money ( but then again- like someone said previously-puppies are so cute, sometimes you can't help yourself when you see one and if its at a bad breeder, it makes it even harder to just walk away) Good Night all


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

hybridowner said:


> Hey thread. Poodles are just as usefull as other dogs, but I have never seen a seeing eye poodle before



Now really. I wonder why there are no seeing eye poodles? Not a bad idea. 

I never thought of blind people with allergies as the reason why there were labodoodles. That was really a good idea. I am not being sarcastic either I really think that was a good idea. There must be some reason why they just did not use a poodle though I wonder why not?


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## Keno's Mom (Nov 20, 2006)

Well you do need a sturdy base (back) in case of balance or support for the person. Labs and shepards tend to have better bodies for support over a poodle. Perhaps that's one reason.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

No, terming a mixed breed dog as a hybed. BTW, it wickepedia is having some credibility issues right now, my kids school district is not allowing the use of wickepeia in research projects due to inaccurate information there.


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## peace36 (Jan 29, 2007)

cshellenberger said:


> No, terming a mixed breed dog as a hybed. BTW, it wickepedia is having some credibility issues right now, my kids school district is not allowing the use of wickepeia in research projects due to inaccurate information there.


Did I miss something. "wickepedia" what is that?


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

LOL, that's what I get for typing without my glasses! Sorry for the misspelling!


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

peace36 said:


> Did I miss something. "wickepedia" what is that?


Wikipedia is a web-based, free content encyclopedia project. It's written collaboratively by volunteers from all around the world. With rare exceptions, its articles can be edited by anyone with access to the Internet.

Certainly, there can be inaccuracies, especially with new content. But, with all due respect to Carla, I'm not sure their definition of hybrid is one of them.

On the other hand, a more tradiitonal dictionary defines hybrid as an *animal resulting from cross-species mating: *an animal that results from the mating of parents from two distinct species or subspecies


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

hybridowner said:


> I just read about the reason for the first labradoddle. Here is the piece copied and pasted from the web site:
> 
> The first Labradoodle was bred by the Australian Guide Dog Association in 1989. The following is an article by the AGDA -
> 
> ...



However you missed the fact that the AGDA had minimal success with this programme and abandoned it very quickly.


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## MagicToller (Jan 4, 2007)

> Hey MagicToller- Where did I say Poodles were useless. I never said that. All I was doing was argiung a point that there is was a purpose for a type of a hybrid, but I guess you didn't read the whole thread. Poodles are just as usefull as other dogs, but I have never seen a seeing eye poodle before


Maybe you misunderstood what I said. I never mentioned that you thought poodles were useless, but your justification for Hyrbids was that:



> After a long and unsuccessful search for a suitable Standard Poodle


What I did say, was that this is a poor justification for hybrids - not a direct criticism on you, but on the idea that just because a "suitable" Poodle wasn't found, they decided to go ahead and ride the trend wave.


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## blnkbrt182 (Sep 23, 2007)

You are obviously very ignorant and pompous to believe that breeders do not care about these hybrid vigor pups. You are also ignorant to the complete definition of a mutt, defined, mid you by the AKC themselves. A mutt is a dog that has no traces of purebred parents. Therefore a designer dog, as you put it, is not a mutt. Most hybrid dogs have been proven to be healthier in the fact, that all purebred dogs have very shallow gene pools there for the recessive genes that particular breed has for certain congenital diseases. So explain to me how a designer dog is less healthier, when it takes genes from two different pure bred genes and allows the congenital defects to be weeded out?


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

blnkbrt182 said:


> You are obviously very ignorant and pompous to believe that breeders do not care about these hybrid vigor pups. You are also ignorant to the complete definition of a mutt, defined, mid you by the AKC themselves. A mutt is a dog that has no traces of purebred parents. Therefore a designer dog, as you put it, is not a mutt. Most hybrid dogs have been proven to be healthier in the fact, that all purebred dogs have very shallow gene pools there for the recessive genes that particular breed has for certain congenital diseases. So explain to me how a designer dog is less healthier, when it takes genes from two different pure bred genes and allows the congenital defects to be weeded out?


Heh, someone is ignorant here but it certainly isn't those you are accusing.

And please for the love of god, show me a -reputable- study that claims mutts to be healthier. For once I would just LOVE someone to have information to back up those claims because they sure get tossed around enough.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

My Mom was from VA and my Dad was from West by God...does that make me a hybrid?


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## Yvette (Sep 13, 2007)

Mix breed or Mutts, what really gets me is, Why?! Pay $2500 for a dog/puppy
when there are so many dying in shelters?! We have a client who paid that for thier Labradoodle. If you go to PetFinder do a search & see just how many are about to die & are maybe 1/3rd of that cost! I really think it is sane! Look how many are there from an impulse buy or the breeder didn't care where these cute little bundles of joy went.  
IMHO health really doesn't matter if they only going to end up in a shelter with only days to live. If you were to hand over $2500 to a shelter, maybe they can keep these designers a little longer in shelters. Why pay more for more bad situations? Why not better or lessen it? 



> My Mom was from VA and my Dad was from West by God...does that make me a hybrid?


I am & proud of it! LOL


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

blnkbrt182 said:


> You are obviously very ignorant and pompous to believe that breeders do not care about these hybrid vigor pups. You are also ignorant to the complete definition of a mutt, defined, mid you by the AKC themselves. A mutt is a dog that has no traces of purebred parents. Therefore a designer dog, as you put it, is not a mutt. Most hybrid dogs have been proven to be healthier in the fact, that all purebred dogs have very shallow gene pools there for the recessive genes that particular breed has for certain congenital diseases. So explain to me how a designer dog is less healthier, when it takes genes from two different pure bred genes and allows the congenital defects to be weeded out?


 
Hmm, sounds like someone's looking for a fight. Starting fights on this site isn't such a good idea.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

blnkbrt182 said:


> You are also ignorant to the complete definition of a mutt, defined, mid you by the AKC themselves.


I'm not sure the AKC gets to define words for us, but you may be on to something here.

The term 'mutt' was derived from 'muttonhead' which meant a stupid person (with reference to the notion that sheep are not very smart.) 'Mutt' carries the implication of inferiority and I would suggest we consider substituting 'mongrel' when we are discussing a dog of unknown or mixed breed. My last three dogs have been mongrels, because I could not be certain of their exact breed and I would have been a muttonhead to pay more than the customary shelter fees for them.

'Muttonhead' could also be used to describe someone who would register on a new forum, dig up a thread that died a natural death six months ago and begin hurling insults at forum members without so much as a, "Hey, I'm new here. Anybody wanna fight?"


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Very good post. I am the proud owner of a cockapoo - er...I mean, Spaniel/Poodle mix. If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have gotten one the way I did (paying lots of money to a breeder). That being said, I have to stick up for myself in saying that I was completely unaware about BYB's and purebreds and designer breeds etc. Most people are clueless. I have tried to spread the word from what I have learned here. But you do have to understand, the majority of the world doesn't know this stuff. I am almost embarrassed now when I am out and people ask me what kind of dog Ella is. Also when the vet asked me where I got her from I wanted to crawl under the table. Sometimes now I just say she's a mutt - kind of don't want to admit I bought into the designer dog hype. She is a wonderful dog and I love her with all my heart and have no regrets that I have her - just wish I got her from somewhere other than a breeder.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

Ella's Mom, you have nothing to be ashamed of. No one on this forum was born knowing what they know now about dogs. You're learning, and that's something to be proud of.

So is that adorable little face on Ella. I've showed her picture to my husband and joked, "This is the number one reason it's so hard to argue against designer dogs. How can you win any argument against that face?!"


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## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

These breeders of mixed breeds are getting pathetic as far as I am concerned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My cousin just had a dog sent to her from SC and it was a basset/Cocker spaniel. I call it the Basscock and just paid for it to have an abortion seeing her sons little dog that is also a mix got her pregnant. Her plans were to have this Basscock bred with her friend Basset hound and the friend was going to do it.
I just happened to go over to her house and haven't seen her for at least a year then it cost me hundreds and I had to talk till I was blue in the face to get her to do it. They are even mailing these poor dogs out.
There are so many purebred and mixed breeds in the pound that are just adorable why have something you don't know about mailed to you? I just don't get it . If people want to be different they could have a stick put through their nose.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Jen, putting a stick through your nose is getting to be more common too. LOL I know exactly what you mean. If one just wants a dog different then everyone Else's go get a dog designed by the best designer on Earth.... God. The pound and rescues are full of one of kind originals. Not bread and butter puppies for some unscrupulous puppy factory owner.


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## petsgalore (Jul 3, 2007)

Let me play devil's advocate here for a minute-if people didn't do the cross mixing of breeds and designer breeding,we'd all own wolves.All breeds were designed for what we humans needed them to be.In essence all our pets are designer bred wolves.

I have much less of a problem with dogs being crossbred with poodles to make them more hypoallergenic so more people can enjoy pets than with those who breed Mastiffs to be so large that by the time they are 2 their hips can't hold them up anymore.Also I have a problem with how the GSD is bred with the extreme slant that can also promote hip/knee problems.

If money is the motivation for breeding[whether it's a designer breed or a known breed],that I have a problem with.I also have a problem with breeding for traits harmful to the dog because we humans like the way it looks.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I couldn't agree more with that. The part about us all owning wolves though, people bred for purposes like hunting, retrieving, herding, carting, guarding etc... There were also not such an over population of dogs as there is now. I do agree with the breeding for shorter noses, greater under-bites, more slant. It is not right either if it causes the dog to have more difficulty of life. My friends German Shepherd was just diagnosed with hip dysplasia. It is a big problem when people see dollars over health. In any breed. The biggest issue with the mixes is just that there are so darn many dogs being euthanized in the states every year because of over population, why create more mixes. Millions die each year because there are not enough homes. Even more live horrid lives in bad homes. People just need to be able to vent their frustrations about this sad dilemma.


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## JeanninePC99 (Jul 24, 2007)

Ella'sMom said:


> I am almost embarrassed now when I am out and people ask me what kind of dog Ella is. Also when the vet asked me where I got her from I wanted to crawl under the table.


You took a dog into your home, give it love, time, and the best of everything you can. There's nothing to be embarrassed about. There are people out there doing far worse things.

The fact that you have one of these dogs isn't a big deal to me. IF you were spreading the name of your breeder when people commented on your pup, that would be embarrassing.


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## cshellenberger (Dec 2, 2006)

Ella's mom,
You have NOTHING to be ashamed of, it's those who know and STILL continue to pay $$$$$$ for or continue to purposely breed mixes that sould be ashamed.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

When we get new puppies in at the vet, I don't cringe when someone got them from a private breeder. I cringe when they bought them at a pet store, and bring in receipts and paperwork showing they spent well over a thousand dollars (plus tax, and put on a credit card, of course), the pups "breeder" is from the Lancaster (read: puppymill central) area, *and* the pup has kennel cough, roundworm, coccidia, etc.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

Lorina, So How many times a day do you run into that? I bet it is getting more and more frequent.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I'd say at least 80% of all puppies we see, maybe more, are pet store pups. And at least 80% of them at very, very least have worms. One local pet store in particular should change their marquee to read, "Buy a puppy, get a free intestinal parasite!"


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Thank you for your words guys. 

Today I was at the soccer fields with my kids and brought Ella. A good friend of mine came over to see her. She is a big dog person and has a St. Bernard at home. She rescued her and is rescuing another. She asked me what Ella was and where I got her from and I told her and inside was dying a little. I have changed so much since I have gotten Ella. I definately would never recommend the breeder nor would I go that route again. But I am proud to be Ella's mom and love her to death.


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## starry15 (Jan 20, 2007)

I think designer breeds are cute  Little mixes. But My issue is with bad breeding. If only htey were breed properly.


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## TooSense (Sep 20, 2007)

I don't think there's anything wrong w/buying a "designer" puppy as long as it's done w/open eyes. Of course they're mutts! Frankly that's one of the things that makes them more attractive, for me anyway--less chance of the genetic problems that come along w/pedigreeds.

And adopting a dog from a shelter isn't cheap either. My local shelter charges a $250 "donation" (sorry, but isn't a donation something you give voluntarily?  ). And in my experience there are always vet bills that go along w/shelter dogs for kennel cough (seems inevitable), worms (not as inevitable), & worse.

I'm getting ready to buy a puggle, she's costing me $400. She has the long beagle nose, beagle eyes & floppy ears so I don't expect the same breathing/eye problems that come along w/pugs. And the bottom line is, I'm getting her for my pug. Not for showing, not for breeding, but for a new friend. I chose a puggle puppy b/c I thought my adult pug would be less threatened by a young, smaller dog. I wanted a female, I wanted a puppy but not too young of a puppy, and it had to be smaller than my pug. I searched shelters & rescues for months without success & finally made this decision b/c my requirements were so narrow.

Pus they're so darned cute!  

Anyway, my point being, I think the new designer dogs are not necessarily a bad thing b/c they're diluting the gene pool, & I think a well educated pet owner can do right by them.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

I still think any amount a shelter or rescue charges is a bargain. That $250 "donation" (called a donation because they're a non-profit group and the amount you pay is tax deductable) also likely covers spaying/neutering, vaccinations, heartworm test and microchipping.

My rescue dog cost $275, including neutering, heartworm test and dose of preventative, treatment with Frontline Plus, microchip, leash, collar, crate and toys. Those procedures and products alone would have cost more than $350. Add another $500 or so for his eye removal surgery done prior to adoption, but that's not an expense most would have. 

Rescues and shelters don't even break even on their adoption fees. I used to work for our local shelter, and they _lost_ money on every dog and cat adopted. A client of ours is a Sheltie rescue that routinely puts hundreds of dollars more into a dog than they get back from the adoption fee.


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## TooSense (Sep 20, 2007)

Well, the shelter dog I had in my house for one night gave my pug kennel cough. So now I'm $100 in the hole for a dog I couldn't even keep.  

Not saying shelters are a bad thing--I'm actually very supportive of them (my dog before my pug came from a shelter & was the best friend I ever had in my life). In fact if I could find a way to do it without waiting forever for the right dog I'd adopt another one.

But I am saying they're definitely not a bargain. Jeez, when I adopted my last dog 16 years ago from a shelter it cost me $40. Now it costs $250. I work for the town that sponsored the shelter & I've seen their financials. They're doing OK & have done more than break even. And that cost does not include spaying/neutering, which is another $300 in this area, so now you're looking at about $550, not including whatever vet bills come w/the kennel cough etc. The "donation" does, however, include veterinary care w/vaccinations. 

Rescues cost more, around $350 & up, depending on the breed of the dog.

I just don't think there's a huge financial difference betw. buying from a (reasonably priced) breeder or adopting from a shelter. I do think there's an emotional & societal difference in that you're giving a deserving dog a good home he/she wouldn't otherwise have.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

$400 for a puppy. That's nice. Did the parents have their patellas OFA'd? A problem in both pugs and beagles? What about eyes being CERF'd yearly? Thyroid checks? Those are all things that reputable breeders do.
If you're buying from a breeder, great! But it had darn well better be a reputable breeder.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Hmmm...This is a great thread...can't add too much more than what has already been said!!! Lol!!!

I really believe that the only breeders that should be allowed are those who are set on improving the breed and the standard of the breed that they are raising. But anyway...

That said...I think the 'perfect' pet, can come from doing your research, and discovering the right breed for your lifestyle and temperment, or by going and scouting your local shelter and rescuing a dog who will be forever greatful for a chance at a life outside the kennel!


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## TooSense (Sep 20, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> $400 for a puppy. That's nice. Did the parents have their patellas OFA'd? A problem in both pugs and beagles? What about eyes being CERF'd yearly? Thyroid checks? Those are all things that reputable breeders do.
> If you're buying from a breeder, great! But it had darn well better be a reputable breeder.



What difference does it make? All pups come with potential future health risks. Heck, when I got a puppy from the shelter they called me 2 days later & told me she had distemper & had to be put down. I refused to bring her back & after 3 mos. she came out of it. Three more times in her life I was told by a vet she had less than a month to live. All three times she pulled through.

Before that, when I was a teen, I bought a golden retriever from a breeder. Never knew their background or how they bred their puppies. He was healthy until the day he passed naturally.

Any pet owner has to be prepared to deal w/health problems, serious or not, from a breeder or from a shelter. It's the nature of having animals. And if you get a pup from a shelter you typically have no idea what kind of background from which s/he comes.

As long as I get a healthy puppy I couldn't care less what kind of testing her previous owners ran on her. It's a permanent commitment to do whatever's necessary to give the dog a happy & healthy life.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

> Jeez, when I adopted my last dog 16 years ago from a shelter it cost me $40.


And 16 years ago, gas was a buck a gallon, a pair of designer jeans were $30, prom dresses were under $100, and you could get a nice new car for $10k. Lots of things have changed since then.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

TooSense, here's my two cents for you...please read a book called The Puppy Report. You're arguments and anecdotal evidence would suggest that you support poor breeding practices. And this IMO, can not go without comment.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

TooSense said:


> What difference does it make? All pups come with potential future health risks. Heck, when I got a puppy from the shelter they called me 2 days later & told me she had distemper & had to be put down. I refused to bring her back & after 3 mos. she came out of it. Three more times in her life I was told by a vet she had less than a month to live. All three times she pulled through.
> 
> Before that, when I was a teen, I bought a golden retriever from a breeder. Never knew their background or how they bred their puppies. He was healthy until the day he passed naturally.
> 
> ...


It's not about what the OWNER has to "deal with"  It's about the PUPPIES who may have to live a life suffering from X, Y, Z condition b/c a breeder cared more about $$$ and the owner cared more about what they wanted rather than the ultimate health of the animal that brought them together. I must say, though, that I doesn't surprise me at all that the first thought of someone who is all for designer dogs is to think about the human component, rather than the canine (the creature that has to actually endure the suffering from hip displasia, blindness or <insert genetic condition here>)....since that's what designer dogs are about: I want what I want when I want it no matter what blah blah blah puke.




> I'm getting ready to buy a puggle, she's costing me $400. She has the long beagle nose, beagle eyes & floppy ears so I don't expect the same breathing/eye problems that come along w/pugs. And the bottom line is, I'm getting her for my pug. Not for showing, not for breeding, but for a new friend. I chose a puggle puppy b/c I thought my adult pug would be less threatened by a young, smaller dog. I wanted a female, I wanted a puppy but not too young of a puppy, and it had to be smaller than my pug. I searched shelters & rescues for months without success & finally made this decision b/c my requirements were so narrow.


But what about the puppies in the litter who are born with heads and snouts too short to allow them to properly breathe and do all the physical activity the beagle part of them wants to take part in? I guess they aren't important to you as long as you get what YOU want? puke.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

lovemygreys said:


> But what about the puppies in the litter who are born with heads and snouts too short to allow them to properly breathe and do all the physical activity the beagle part of them wants to take part in? I guess they aren't important to you as long as you get what YOU want? puke.


What about the pure bred pug pups that are born the same way? I just think the whole "bettering the breed" stuff is (in most cases) baloney. I'm not saying I support mixing Great danes and chis to make a great Taco Bell Dog, but on a very basic level, isn't all breeding done for what "people" think the dog should do or look like? I mean what can a Golden do that the retrievers they got their DNA from can't? Have longer hair and be golden? How many dogs in the wild, given a choice, not trained to do what we want them to do, would be leading blind people around, or sniffing out drugs in the airport, or walking through the hospital halls to make kids smile? And I can't tell you the last time I overheard two wild dogs asking each other whether they had their hips checked or not. Every arguement that's presented for "responsible" breeders, is about domestication, which is a direct result of human tampering to begin with.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

the-tenth said:


> Every arguement that's presented for "responsible" breeders, is about domestication, which is a direct result of human tampering to begin with.


Actually, no, it's about money. Dog's have been domesticated for thousands of years, that isn't the issue. The issue is dog's are too successful and "responsible" breeding is one means to control the success. However, not everyone agrees on what "responsible" breeding is, sadly. So long as you're a tax payer, the success of dogs, whether you own one or not, will take a dip out of your pocket book. Therefore, if breeder A doesn't care to control the success of the dogs they bring into this world, I have a tax stub that says I have the right to amend laws that affect their pocket book too. But amendments in the political world take too long to set in, so I, the consumer, must demand more from breeders, and do everything I can to insure breeder A is producing animals that are more likely to not end up in a system that takes money from our pocket books. It's about money, and frankly, I'd rather give it to those who do all the things I deem a responsible breeder should do. To throw our hands in the air and say it's going to happen anyways, is tantamount to the blind leading the blind. No thanks, I find it better to define responsible breeding, whether breeders like it or not. Whether dogs should be domesticated or not is a totally different question.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

"Breeding to better the breed" means that the (for instance) Golden Retriever looks like a Golden Retriever, acts like a Golden Retriever, and the breeder did everything humanly possible to NOT breed those with known health issues.

I'm not against the making of new breeds, if it's done correctly. If they health test the parents. If they work towards actually establishing a breed that breeds true. If they don't just take two dogs and put them together and sell the offspring.

But the designer breeders don't do it that way. I've never seen two Puggles who looked alike, beyond looking like some kind of pug mix. Some have short faces, some longer, some have pug-like ears, some have beagle-like ears, some have curly tails, some straight. I've never seen two Labradoodles who looked alike, either. Or acted alike. There's *no* standard, and a standard is what makes a breed, well, a breed. Knowing what the temperment, looks, size, coat, behavior, and health is going to be is what makes a purebred dog. Without that, it's all a crapshoot.

When I researched breeds, I wanted a Pekingese. I knew from reading about them what the size was, what the temperment was like, what kind of grooming needs they'd have, what kind of special care they'd need. A cross between a Pug and a Pomeranian would likely look similar, but it wouldn't *be* a Pekingese.


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## SammyDog (May 21, 2007)

TooSence just move onto another thread


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## Ella'sMom (Jul 23, 2007)

Yep and no two cockapoos look alike. I just spent an hour looking at a cockapoo rescue site. So many of these mutts (and I say that affectionately) need a home. I never thought to find one that way - I simply went and bought one from a breeder - I paid so much money too. It's not the money I care about - but when I see these dogs that need forever homes and here I went and purchased one - well - it doesn't make sense. Never ever ever ever would I make that same mistake again. Go get a mutt from a shelter or go rescue one. Stop these breeders from making money off these designer dogs.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Therefore, if breeder A doesn't care to control the success of the dogs they bring into this world, I have a tax stub that says I have the right to amend laws that affect their pocket book too. But amendments in the political world take too long to set in, so I, the consumer, must demand more from breeders, and do everything I can to insure breeder A is producing animals that are more likely to not end up in a system that takes money from our pocket books.


Who decides what makes a "line" successful? A successful Golden Retreiver for me, doesn't have to be between X and Y inches high, be able to trot around a ring, and have the exact markings that some table full of people decides a breed should have. All these standards were set by people who wanted certain dogs to look a certain way, act a certain way, and be able to perform certain tasks. I mean really, what was the purpose in breeding Goldens? They are one of my favorite breed, but what is the purpose that they were bred for? A retreiver with a different look. But now, people that want to breed dogs with different looks are irresponsible and should be drug behind a truck. Almost every breed that anyone on this forum owns or has ever owned was a mixed breed at one point, and would have been considered irresponsible breeding by the standards that are set by a great many people in this thread. And the people that want a Labradoodle are paying the same taxes that you and I are.



Lorina said:


> "Knowing what the temperment, looks, size, coat, behavior, and health is going to be is what makes a purebred dog. Without that, it's all a crapshoot.


All the health tests in the world don't mean healthy pups. Now granted some things can be caught, but to say you know a pup will be healthy because it comes from one breeder versus another is nonsense. And temperment. Why is it that when the discussion is about breeding that temperment is always brought up, but in the behavior threads the same people say if a dog is aggressive, afraid, whatever, it's because of abuse, neglect, improper training, and so on? To me this seems very contradictory.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

10th, I won't pretend to know the history of the Golden, I'm sure it's rich and interesting. Just as I won't pretend to ignore the difference between a good breeder and a bad one without first defining in my own mind what a good one and a bad one is...and that definition for me starts by evaluating what the breeder does to be a professional of their craft. The "who", at present, is typically by peer review. IMO, it should be more than that, but that's another subject.

Beyond that, believe it or not, there is a means on how new breeds are recognized. Labradoodle breeders have yet to complete those means. Until then, until they can overcome the greater number of unscrupulous breeders, anyone who intends to buy a labradoodle is gambling. It would be remiss if consumers weren't allowed to hear our warnings, or if we allowed irresponsible breeding practices to go uncontested. Perhaps there's too much emotion in the issue, but that blame if for everyone to endure.

I can't tell you how to define responsible breeding, no more than I can define which politician you should vote for. I can try though. But even in difference I'm sure we would both agree that we seek the common good. And the common good seems to be on a continuum at the moment. I guess only after our dogs become way too successful, and the issue becomes as large as health care, will we begin to truly understand the impact of the choices we have today.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Say a dog has the beginnings hip dysplasia and the breeder doesnt know it has it because it didnt test for it. What are the chances the puppies are going to get it? Much higher than a puppy from parents who were tested and are known to not have it. Also what if it is the mother that has the hip dysplasia, I bet the pregnancy will be horrible for her health.

Designer mutts are just that and they are breeding 2 different breeds together. 2 breeds that have 2 different standards with 2 different lists of health concerns. Labradoodles not only have to worry about getting health problems known that Labs might get, but from Poodles too!

And Puggles are horrible! Beagles have lots of energy Pugs do not. So if a Pug has a short face at least they dont want to run a marathon like Beagles do! I would guess those are the Puggles with the major breathing problems, the ones that want to run run run but they cant because they cant breath when they run a lot.

Health testing is important because even if it doesnt prevent an animal from getting a problem it definatly makes it less likely, because the problem dogs are not bred!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

sillylilykitty said:


> Health testing is important because even if it doesnt prevent an animal from getting a problem it definatly makes it less likely, because the problem dogs are not bred!


Bingo.  There's no guarantees but a breeder should do as much as humanly possible to prevent a pup from having a genetic disease. Sure, you can't catch them all, but why not try?

The more you know a line, the more you test a line, the less likely you are to have these types of diseases.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Isn't it nice to discuss something like this intelligently, without having people start flaming and calling names? I think so. I guess I'm not so much thinking of the designer breeds, so maybe this has become somewhat of a thread-jacking. I agree with you guys on a lot of the issues. I don't disagree with all the health testing. Yes mixed breeds do have a chance of getting genetic disorders from both breeds, but they also stand a chance of not getting either from either side. Now breeding a dog with a pendancy for breathing disorder with a dog that's known to be excessively hyper, I don't see any way around that not being irresponsible. But this guy....how would you define this guy. I read a blog the other day about a guy crossing Great Danes and Saint Bernards. The studs and bitches were at one point all show dogs and had all their health clearances and certifications. I think he's up to like third generation mixes. He hasn't sold any puppies, only given them to his children and grandchildren after they were fixed (the ones he didn't keep himself obviously). He is still having the litters tested for hips and what not. What are your thoughts on something like this. Obviously, the guy is not in it for the money as he's not even selling pups. And btw, there was a gorgeous picture of one, looked exactly like a saint, but was black and white instead of brown. Just wanting to pick some brains. I don't support bad breeding, but at the same time I don't think that anyone breeding mixes, or even purebreds who don't show or do agility for that matter, are automatically bad.


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## Lorina (Jul 1, 2006)

If he's breeding to establish a breed of St. Danes or Great Bernards (but hopefully with a better name than either  ), I have no problem with that.

I just have a problem with people making up cutsie names for mixes and selling them for more than a quality purebred of either breed would cost, and making them out to be some kind of wonderdog with no health or behavioral problems. Like the hype on the puggle -- "breed" descriptions make them out to be the perfect dog, wonderful dispositions without the breathing issues of the pug and without the noisiness of the beagle. I can think of three puggles I know. One is a very nasty little mo-fo who needs to be muzzled for just a vet exam. One had to have surgery because her nasal passages were too small. And one lives a few blocks from me and never, ever, ever stops barking.


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## Dakota Spirit (Jul 31, 2007)

tenth - if the guy you mentioned is truly breeding a long those lines that I wouldn't necessarily jump in with a claim of 'bad breeder'. I would ask however, what his goals were. Is he trying to develop a new breed? Does he have a specific look in mind that he striving for? That sort of thing. Its not that I believe every dog in the world need to be out there doing a job, but I am of the mind that every breeding program needs to have some sort of goal in mind.

And I agree on the intelligent discussions 

ETA: Lorina beat me too it


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

the-tenth said:


> Isn't it nice to discuss something like this intelligently, without having people start flaming and calling names? I think so. I guess I'm not so much thinking of the designer breeds, so maybe this has become somewhat of a thread-jacking. I agree with you guys on a lot of the issues. I don't disagree with all the health testing. Yes mixed breeds do have a chance of getting genetic disorders from both breeds, but they also stand a chance of not getting either from either side. Now breeding a dog with a pendancy for breathing disorder with a dog that's known to be excessively hyper, I don't see any way around that not being irresponsible. But this guy....how would you define this guy. I read a blog the other day about a guy crossing Great Danes and Saint Bernards. The studs and bitches were at one point all show dogs and had all their health clearances and certifications. I think he's up to like third generation mixes. He hasn't sold any puppies, only given them to his children and grandchildren after they were fixed (the ones he didn't keep himself obviously). He is still having the litters tested for hips and what not. What are your thoughts on something like this. Obviously, the guy is not in it for the money as he's not even selling pups. And btw, there was a gorgeous picture of one, looked exactly like a saint, but was black and white instead of brown. Just wanting to pick some brains. I don't support bad breeding, but at the same time I don't think that anyone breeding mixes, or even purebreds who don't show or do agility for that matter, are automatically bad.


I guess I'd have to know why he is breeding this way instead of just breeding purebreds, where he got his stock (I can't imagine any show breeder letting their stock go to be creating mixed breeds). 

There are some breeders breeding new breeds that are doing okay. Like Silken Windhounds and even a select few cockapoo breeders. They health test and everything with their dogs. I think cockapoos are on their third generation within their registry. The problem they face is being a major fad right now the majority aren't remotely reputable breeders. I think the serious breeders who are striving for AKC accpetance really need to start calling their dogs something else instead of 'cockapoo' since names like that tend to denote designer dogs.

I defnitely agree that every breeding program needs to have a goal. You have to have deciding factors to limit the breeding program.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

the-tenth said:


> Isn't it nice to discuss something like this intelligently, without having people start flaming and calling names? I think so. I guess I'm not so much thinking of the designer breeds, so maybe this has become somewhat of a thread-jacking. I agree with you guys on a lot of the issues. I don't disagree with all the health testing. Yes mixed breeds do have a chance of getting genetic disorders from both breeds, but they also stand a chance of not getting either from either side. Now breeding a dog with a pendancy for breathing disorder with a dog that's known to be excessively hyper, I don't see any way around that not being irresponsible. But this guy....how would you define this guy. I read a blog the other day about a guy crossing Great Danes and Saint Bernards. The studs and bitches were at one point all show dogs and had all their health clearances and certifications. I think he's up to like third generation mixes. He hasn't sold any puppies, only given them to his children and grandchildren after they were fixed (the ones he didn't keep himself obviously). He is still having the litters tested for hips and what not. What are your thoughts on something like this. Obviously, the guy is not in it for the money as he's not even selling pups. And btw, there was a gorgeous picture of one, looked exactly like a saint, but was black and white instead of brown. Just wanting to pick some brains. I don't support bad breeding, but at the same time I don't think that anyone breeding mixes, or even purebreds who don't show or do agility for that matter, are automatically bad.


Now that would be the only responsible breeder of mixes I have heard of (IMO). Sounds like something I would be interested in researching (since it involves Danes and sounds responsible). I would like to know his goals in his breeding program.

Where did you hear of this? Does he have a website??



Laurelin said:


> I think the serious breeders who are striving for AKC accpetance really need to start calling their dogs something else instead of 'cockapoo' since names like that tend to denote designer dogs.


Thats another thing I really dont like. They need to choose a better name then a Cockapoo, Yorkipoo, or Puggle. If they are striving to produce a new breed, call it a new name instead of combining the 2 breeds names.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> Where did you hear of this? Does he have a website??


Eh. Not a website but a blog. And I kinda stumbled on it accidently. It was in one of my many many many searches for great dane saint bernard mixes (still trying to figure out what Sandy is) to see what some looked like. IIRC he did talk about the look he was trying to get, but I can't remember much more than that. I was really just looking for pictures, and took a break to read his blog. I think he actually showed the danes. I also think I remember him saying he's going with 3\4 dane 1\4 saint (which I guess means he's breeding the offspring with danes?). Not sure though. I wish I would have bookmarked it. Wasn't what I was looking for at the time, but I read it because it was intersting.



Laurelin said:


> There are some breeders breeding new breeds that are doing okay. Like Silken Windhounds and even a select few cockapoo breeders. .


What about the American Mastiffs?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I honestly don't know a thing about American mastiffs, so I'd have to research that one.


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

> the-tenth said:
> 
> 
> > Eh. Not a website but a blog. And I kinda stumbled on it accidently. It was in one of my many many many searches for great dane saint bernard mixes (still trying to figure out what Sandy is) to see what some looked like. IIRC he did talk about the look he was trying to get, but I can't remember much more than that. I was really just looking for pictures, and took a break to read his blog. I think he actually showed the danes. I also think I remember him saying he's going with 3\4 dane 1\4 saint (which I guess means he's breeding the offspring with danes?).QUOTE]
> ...


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> > Many breeds started out this way. They were breed by one person or group by combining many different breeds. One example that comes to mind would be the doberman.
> 
> 
> Like Plott Hounds too!


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

There's 2 lines trying to get AKC accredited. One if Flying W, and the other is Ponja or somethin like that. I've read a bit on the Flying W lines. t's identical in appearance to the English, but dry mouthed. They were also trying to cut way back on the joint problems and dysplacia. I think they were originally 7\8 English mastiffs and 1\8 some type of Shepherd. Anyhoo. Ok. Well looks like the Panja line is little more than some crackheads breeding pits, rotties, and mastiffs together to guard their stashes. Now they wanna be "recognized".


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## husky87 (Oct 31, 2007)

Sorry to drag up an older thread guys, but I didn't see this article posted anywhere in here and thought it might be an interesting read for some of you.



hybridowner said:


> I just read about the reason for the first labradoddle. Here is the piece copied and pasted from the web site:
> 
> The first Labradoodle was bred by the Australian Guide Dog Association in 1989. The following is an article by the AGDA -
> ...
> ...


The creater of the "labradoodle" is a man named Wally Conron. He recently wrote an article for Readers Digest where he says: 

"....While all this was happening, I continued training Sultan, the original non-allergenic pup. He eventually went to Hawaii, amid intense media coverage, where as the world’s first labradoodle he bonded beautifully with his new owner and her allergic husband.

Interest in the labradoodle continued to escalate and inquiries poured in from all over the world from people wishing to either purchase or breed the dogs. But I quickly realised that I’d opened a Pandora’s box when our next litter of ten labradoodles produced only three allergy-free pups.

I began to worry, too, about backyard breeders producing supposedly “allergy-free” dogs for profit. Already, one man claimed to be the first to breed a poodle- Rottweiler cross! 

Nothing, however, could stop the mania that followed. New breeds began to flood the market: groodles, spoodles, caboodles and snoodles. Were breeders bothering to check their sires and bitches for heredity faults, or were they simply caught up in delivering to hungry customers the next status symbol? We’ll never know for sure.

Today I am internationally credited as the first person to breed the labradoodle but I wonder, in my retirement, whether we bred a designer dog – or a disaster!"

Many people don't realise that the Guide dog's association's program for breeding labradoodles was abandoned because it produced unreliable results. No labradoodle would breed true and no puppy could be guarenteed to be hypo allergenic - as Conran states in the above excert, only three out ten puppies would result in a hypo allergenic dog. Even then, the dogs coat can change up until twelve months of age so a puppy that is initially hypo allergenic can change with maturity.

The whole article:
http://www.readersdigest.com.au/con...d-a-dog/?commentPageIndex=0&orderCommentsBy=0

No cross breed or "hybrid" dog can breed true. The Australian Labradoodle is not a breed, and their "breed standard" is a joke that gives room for any size, type or shape of dog - you can get a dog that is any where between 7kg to 30 kg. There are two different coat types and 10 different colours that can come in any combination. 

And this is ONLY if you buy from a breeder who is part of the Australian Labradoodle Association, majority of doodle breeders are not part of this organisation and majority are not breeding to any standard no matter how ridiculous it actually is. Most are still breeding first crosses and there is nothing regulating the breeding of these dogs.



hybridowner said:


> True, but it took a creative person to find a way to help blind people with allergies. So at least now we have an example of a hybrid with a role or job, a job that a pure breed cannot do


Majority of guide dogs are still purebred dogs. There is nothing a hybrid dog can do that a purebred dog can't - there ARE poodles that are guide dogs. Hybrid dogs bring nothing new to the dog world that we don't already have in our 200+ recognised purebred dogs.

Wally Conron was not a creative person. He has said in numerous interviews that he regrets breeding labradoodles and wishes that he never had because it has opened a can of worms.


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## TFTpwnsYou (May 22, 2007)

I didn't read through the whole thread, but these "designer dogs" make me crazy. I got curious and looked on some site one day, and I think they have more silly named mixes than there are actual pure breds. It shocked the crap out of me. Although a lot of them aren't popular like the "Puggle", "Poos", and Oodles". But the OP made a good thread start.


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

Oh no!!!! This thread needs to be a buried bone! 

**sigh**

I don't even think that British Bandit is on here, anymore...

Just my two cents!


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