# Picking an Aussie breeder



## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

I'll just say I've been looking for working line Aussies ... And damn they are hard to find. I've almost all but given up on that notion. Oh, I'm from ontario Canada by the way.

Been looking into this breeder, seems to be responsible and knows what she's doing. Socializes and works up close with all the pups and seems to care for them very well. On the other hand red flags for me include different prices on colours, and almost always having two litters at a time. I just can't make my mind up about her. Posts tons of videos on the page of pups that seem to be great, and also has a lot of information on her site - just is breeding for conformation and flashiness? 
Anyone have any insight?


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

That's too many flags for me, personally.

Have you checked out: http://www.workingaussiesource.com/breederstate.html#Canadian


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

I have.. But the closest breeder to me on that list is 1400km away


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

What about rescue? There could be some good dogs there. 

http://www.ontarioaussies.ca/


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

Toronto, ontario


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I would email that breeder and ask if they know any clubs or other breeders in the area. There's also the option of shipping. The breeders I'm looking at for my next dog right now (not settled on a breed yet) are all across the US from me.


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

And is Stoverly Aussies the breeder you were originally talking about possibly?


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

I'm not too comfortable with shipping. I would much rather meet the litters, speak to and see the owner/premesis. I would much rather take a non working line than to have to ship a pup



boxerlover876 said:


> And is Stoverly Aussies the breeder you were originally talking about possibly?


T'is. 
I was debating if I should post a link or not

http://stoverlyaussies.com/home.html


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

Edlam said:


> I'm not too comfortable with shipping. I would much rather meet the litters, speak to and see the owner/premesis. I would much rather take a non working line than to have to ship a pup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, that's what I figured. She appears to health test, but some of her policies are a bit odd to me reading one of her contracts and how she registers. 

Here try this. http://www.cnasa.ca/member breeders.htm


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

Exactly... That's what's strange. She socializes. Health tests. Makes sure the pups go to good homes, yet her policies are so strange. She princes on 'show quality' 'performance quality' and 'pet quality' with hire prices on merles.

Also has litter plans going well into the end of next year with two litters at a time. Check out the plans page


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

She seems to have a more dominant co-ownership thing kind of going on. It's very much controlled by her. Although the whole puppy back isn't normal at all from what I've seen. 

The pet vs. show quality is actually normal though for all breeds. 

I don't understand the litter plans at all as she has one female being bred to two or three males at one time, unless she's doing a dual sired litter. There's just something off about her whole set up to me and she doesn't appear to be a part of the Canadian Aussie Club. It makes me wonder if she lost her good standing or something.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Edlam said:


> I'm not too comfortable with shipping. I would much rather meet the litters, speak to and see the owner/premesis. I would much rather take a non working line than to have to ship a pup
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Umn, I wouldn't want an Aussie from someone who is also breeding minis, and claims to be breeding "all sizes"
of Aussie. Two separate breeds if one is being honest. It also appears their focus is on show, not working and there is a BIG difference sometimes. And sometimes to get what you want, you have to look at out-of-area options. My last two dogs came from Georgia to Oklahoma. One arrived on a cattle truck haulling to western OK (she rode in the cab, and I think the trucker would have liked to keep her!) and I met the breeder at the National Specialty to pick up her sister a couple of years later.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I haven't even crossed the 'how is the puppy going to get to me' bridge yet. I figure we'll figure that out when we get there.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Personally, I wouldn't go near that contract from Stoverly. There are SO many provisions that allow the breeder to take the dog back for almost any reason and I don't want the breeder dictating health decisions for me. I also don't see any reason to do CERF or OFA at buyers cost when its only the breeder who benefits. Some may feel differently but I dislike restrictive contracts and I'm not inclined to trust a breeder who doesn't trust me. Its frustrating, lots of rescue contracts are just as restrictive (once you're even approved). For that reason my next dogs will probably be from the pound or hopefully I can find a good breeder with a reasonable contract... seems difficult.

The Mini American Shepherd is a breed I'm interested in owning one day (far down the road) and I'm in Toronto as well so I'll keep an eye on this thread. Good luck with the search!!


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

I forgot about the whole mini Aussie too. Another strike. And those contracts are one of the most restrictive contracts I think I've ever read. I don't agree with at least half the stuff in it.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

I know Tucker Creek Aussies personally and they are great dogs I would recommend them and they are in Ontario.


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

They are 15 hours away 

Aiw: what dogs do you have


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Is 15 hours really too far to go for a dog you'll have for 13 years? When you want a quality dog, the chances of finding exactly what you want in your own backyard are pretty slim. Don't write off a breeder without even contacting them just because they aren't super close to you. Sometimes when you talk to them, you can come up with solutions -- I know breeders who deliver puppies (theirs or breeder friends') when they're travelling to a show near the buyer; I know people who will ship pups as long as they've met you in person first (so you only have to do the trip once); I know people who will meet you halfway between your locations. 

If you want a great working line Aussie, isn't it worth a little hassle? You'll probably have lots of time to prepare, anyway, as most good breeders have waiting lists and/or don't breed a lot of litters per year. And even if they can't work out a way to get a puppy to you, contacting breeders never hurts because they can recommend other breeders to you. Many good breeders don't advertise at all and you find them through referrals.

These would be show/performance breeders, but maybe worth a look: Ontario Aussie breeder listings.


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

Honestly you're right. 
But to clarify and make me sound less horrible, the reason I would want to find a breeder closer to me would be so I could be in better contact with them when the pups are growing up and maybe visit them a few times as well. Also, I haven't looked at shipping puppies but I guess it wouldn't be so horrible for them. I should talk to the breeder, nothing bad can come of it. 

Thanks for the advice though, it's why I love this place,


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## Momof2Aussies (Oct 15, 2012)

We drove 5 hours (Barrie to Ottawa) 8 hours back (stopping for pees) to get our first Aussie. And he is the love of my life  we get stopped all the time on his beauty and his intelligence. Unfortunately he is does not have a high prey drive (he will let a squirrel run by) and he won't chase a ball or frisbee. But he is the perfect specimen and we wouldn't trade him for the world. 
He just curled on to my lap with one paw over my arm  time for a walk. 
They are amazing animals. If you aren't looking for the dog to actually work it may just be nice to go for agility champions or flyball champions. Either way make sure both parents have recently passed their checks. You seemed to know what to be looking for which is the first step. 
Also, we have a red Merle and he was the same price as his other litter mates. Which was well passed the $1,000 mark. 
Good luck!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Edlam said:


> Honestly you're right.
> But to clarify and make me sound less horrible, the reason I would want to find a breeder closer to me would be so I could be in better contact with them when the pups are growing up and maybe visit them a few times as well. Also, I haven't looked at shipping puppies but I guess it wouldn't be so horrible for them. I should talk to the breeder, nothing bad can come of it.
> 
> Thanks for the advice though, it's why I love this place,


I had one puppy person who flew (from Indiana to OK) to pick up her puppy. If you do that though, I'd suggest waiting until the pup is about 10 weeks, as 8 weeks tends to be a fear period, and flying can be scary.


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

I found a seemingly good breeder. Haven't picked up any red flags yet. She has two litters now but i can't take a pup until early/mid next year so need to wait for another litter. God they are adorable. 
She isn't a working line breeder but seems like she knows what she's doing?
http://www.cedarpaws.ca/index.html


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Edlam said:


> I found a seemingly good breeder. Haven't picked up any red flags yet. She has two litters now but i can't take a pup until early/mid next year so need to wait for another litter. God they are adorable.
> She isn't a working line breeder but seems like she knows what she's doing?
> http://www.cedarpaws.ca/index.html


Yes they do know what they are doing and have all the health testing typical of the breed done. Still not a breeder I personally would buy from tho, but then you aren't me.


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

Keechak said:


> Yes they do know what they are doing and have all the health testing typical of the breed done. Still not a breeder I personally would buy from tho, but then you aren't me.


Well. I sent an email to tucker creek yesterday along with a questionnaire. Also, told my go we'll be going on a road trip maybe 
Just keeping options open


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

I agree with others that are saying do not rule out a good breeder just because they are not local. We drove out to ohio from virginia to get my 2 year old weimaraner BB, from my friend out there. Of course we took our RV and broke up the trip in a few days. BB was 4 months when I got her, it worked out that there was a dog show then so we made a weekend of it. Lots of breeders will do that meet you at an event close to you or at least halfway, or just meet you somewhere. You just have to ask, sometimes the best breeders are not going to be close to you, as has been said. Personally I would even fly out to England if I thought I could get a good dog,.


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

Am I missing something here. I've gone through this breeders entire site and he singlehandedly has the most information I've seen on Aussies and seems to be a great breeder. Now, how is it that he's doing a double Merle breeding?? He even has info on his site about double Merles. 
http://www.purestockaussies.com/index.php?page=puppies&sub=planned_litters


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## boxerlover876 (Dec 31, 2011)

I don't really seem to get that breeder either. I don't understand what his main goals in breeding are. The COI of the litter is decently high also along with a double Merle breeding. Also, not many of those dogs in the pedigree seem to be proven wit titles. I'd personally pass.


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

So I have recently acquired an Aussie, and I am in the USA but in a CA neighboring state (MI). I was not looking for a stock Aussie, but I got a great deal of information from 2 websites:

www.qualityaussies.webs.com
www.k9station.com

With k9station being in Canada and her dogs have done search and rescue. Double merles is a no-no, a big one. I would strongly suggest you contact k9station for further references.

Aussies rock, I can't imagine what I did all these years without mine <3


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

Okay what the hell


"
Yes the 25% is always a chance you take when breeding merle to merle. We produced zero in our first merle to merle cross, Twitcher and Shemah. What you need to know (if you don't already) is that ALL puppies produced that are double merles will be VERY obvious at birth and we will cull them at that time. So no life long issues with puppies being deaf or blind, all puppies that show white where it shouldn't be will be culled and all other puppies in the litter will be perfectly healthy. Yes, culling puppies will be hard, never think that I won't be affected by it, but I am hopeful that I will get a repeat from the Twitcher x Shemah cross and have zero again. Every puppy from that cross is very happy and healthy. Am I naive, maybe...but hopeful.

There is a reason I put the homozygous merle (double merle) info right out there from the start...I want no one to assume that all the puppies in the litter are going to be unhealthy. I want everyone to read and educate themselves and then ask questions. I love answering questions, and even saying I don't don't...because that's how I learn. 

I can appreciate and even understand you being reserved, but know that if a puppy from here goes to a forever home it will be able to hear and see quite well, just like it would if it had been produced from a merle to solid cross. 
"


Edit: just replied with a not so happy email


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

Edlam said:


> Okay what the hell
> 
> 
> "
> ...


While I don't agree with merle x merle breedings (or any breeding with the likely possibility of producing defective puppies), at least they're being upfront and honest? Eak. I'd personally steer clear, however.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I would not support that breeder. I can understand breeders humanely euthanizing pups that unexpectedly crop up with really bad health issues (and I don't mean deafness, I mean BAD health issues)... but to breed two dogs together _knowing_ that there's a 25% chance of producing pups with health issues, and then killing those pups? I just can't get behind that. I don't care how good of a match the parents are -- there's always another match.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yay, killing puppies! Seriously? Ugh. Horrible people.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

I never really understood the point of merle x merle. Is there any possible benefits?


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

I suppose there's a very immature aesthetic benefit with the polka dot white dog thing but seriously almost all the bad things that can come from the Collie family will turn up in merlexmerle, even in CERF, OFA, MDR1, etc... testing. Do not support this breeding practice it's wrong!!


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

zhaor said:


> I never really understood the point of merle x merle. Is there any possible benefits?


Pretty puppies. Ones with a lot of white look flashier.

I mean, I'm sure someone could argue that the absolute best match, physically and temperamentally, for their merle bitch just happens to be a merle stud, and the lines behind them both combine to create awesome puppies, but I don't buy that. There's always another option that won't result in the fairly high risk of "defective" pups.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Well I mean the double merle puppies would be the ones culled right? Or is the point trying to gamble on semi healthy double merle pups that aren't blind and/or deaf?

Would the single merle pups from a merle x merle litter be any flashier than merle pups from a merle x solid litter?


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## ajw (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes they get the increased white with freckled markings and end up looking like white freckled collie type dogs but being double recessive genetically they are very likely to be lifelong unhealthy dogs. You can't tell who might have colitis, ear infections etc.. there's just the lethal whites which are the deaf and blind dogs...why risk it. Many beautiful dogs are born to tri x merle and they last 13 years with nothing but an aversion to corn and possibly Ivermectin.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

boxerlover876 said:


> I don't really seem to get that breeder either. I don't understand what his main goals in breeding are. The COI of the litter is decently high also along with a double Merle breeding. Also, not many of those dogs in the pedigree seem to be proven wit titles. I'd personally pass.


 Mistretta dogs are well known


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## mashlee08 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ah if only I lived in the states I would be looking into all these kennels, alas, I am in Australia. Currently looking for an Aussie breeder too, and there are so many, it's hard. Any Aussie people know of good breeders in Australia hehe. OP, I am getting my next dog from a place that is two days drive away. If its the right breeder, distance is not even a factor for me(provided its the same country). Good luck in your search!


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

This was her last Merle cross. You can see how pups come out very distinct
http://findpuppiesnow.com/index.php?page=puppies&sub=past_litters&tri=past_litter_pics_2008-11-23


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Edlam said:


> This was her last Merle cross. You can see how pups come out very distinct
> http://findpuppiesnow.com/index.php?page=puppies&sub=past_litters&tri=past_litter_pics_2008-11-23


The merles from that cross don't look any different from the merles from a typical Merle to tri cross.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

zhaor said:


> Well I mean the double merle puppies would be the ones culled right? Or is the point trying to gamble on semi healthy double merle pups that aren't blind and/or deaf?
> 
> Would the single merle pups from a merle x merle litter be any flashier than merle pups from a merle x solid litter?


No, ignorant people always assume that double merle breeders do it to create some mystical "better colored" puppy. Which isn't true. All the puppies who are not double merle will look like any other puppy from a merle to tri cross. The only Double merle breeders who actually do it specifically for color are those who don't know about the health problems of double merle.

The vast majority of breeders who have bred a double merle litter did NOT do it to get a certain color, they did it because the two dogs being bred complemented each other in structure and boodlines and health better than any other pairing they felt they could reasonably put together. 

I do not like breeding merle together but I DO understand the reason most breeders do it and 90% of the time it has NOTHING to do with color.

In essence, Most breeders believe the healthy normal pups they will produce in a merle to merle breeding will help the breed as a whole more than the lives of the 25% double merle puppies are worth. It's basically a belief in "The end justifies the means" If the "End" is a healthier, more sound puppy with better temperament, that puppy and it's own contributions to the gene pool outweigh the life and loss of a few of it's siblings. Not saying I agree with it, but that's the mentality behind it.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Ok that makes more sense.


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## Edlam (Oct 19, 2012)

It makes sense what you say. I can see the thought behind it. However in my mind that is abuse. How can you justify killing an animal to better the breed. Its still an animal that is alive and they are the ones causing a perfectly innocent being to have to die. 
I understand the idea, but that's bullshit. No breeder should go into a litter knowing they might have to kill a pup when it is directly their fault.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

As I've said before, the individual dogs suffer when "the breed" is given too much importance. Apparently ethics are not a thing for those breeders or the breed clubs that allow it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Willowy said:


> As I've said before, the individual dogs suffer when "the breed" is given too much importance. Apparently ethics are not a thing for those breeders or the breed clubs that allow it.


That's just not fair. While I agree that it isn't something I would do, and wouldn't support a breeder who did, 'the good of the many versus the good of the one' is a COMMON ethical debate, without a clear answer. You can't just make it black and white like that and condemn everyone who doesn't share YOUR ethical view of it. Well, you can, but it doesn't really make it true.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

CptJack said:


> That's just not fair. While I agree that it isn't something I would do, and wouldn't support a breeder who did, 'the good of the many versus the good of the one' is a COMMON ethical debate, without a clear answer. You can't just make it black and white like that and condemn everyone who doesn't share YOUR ethical view of it. Well, you can, but it doesn't really make it true.


 If it really WERE for "the good of the many" I might agree but it's not. It's for the good of "the breed", which is more of an abstract concept. No individual dogs benefit when things are done "for the good of the breed". I don't believe that benefitting an abstract concept trumps the welfare of the individual.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Keechak said:


> No, ignorant people always assume that double merle breeders do it to create some mystical "better colored" puppy. Which isn't true. All the puppies who are not double merle will look like any other puppy from a merle to tri cross. The only Double merle breeders who actually do it specifically for color are those who don't know about the health problems of double merle.
> 
> The vast majority of breeders who have bred a double merle litter did NOT do it to get a certain color, they did it because the two dogs being bred complemented each other in structure and boodlines and health better than any other pairing they felt they could reasonably put together.
> 
> ...


I think that is true a lot of the time (as far as reasoning goes).

And yes, the regular merles in a merle x merle cross will be unaffected. They won't look any different than a melre pup from a tri x merle.

It's not always true especially in shelties and collies though that color is not a consideration. There's enough of a market for a nice double merle stud that people breed for it. There are several very successful double merles (very high whites too) in shelties producing like crazy. And it is believed that in addition to breeding 100% merle litters a double merle stud will produce a clearer merling pattern. I have never seen people market a double merle stud dog in aussies the way they do in shelties or collies though.

It's one of those things you have to decide your ethics about. I was considering a breeder very closely then found out they had bred to one of these double merle studs twice and decided it was not the right breeder for me.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> As I've said before, the individual dogs suffer when "the breed" is given too much importance. Apparently ethics are not a thing for those breeders or the breed clubs that allow it.


Ethics may vary. Some breeders may consider it inhumane and unethical to keep up a severely disabled puppy who may be passed from home to home and end up in the shelter (which many do). I hate euthanizing pets, but have done it many times. I have to say, my beliefs aren't traditionally Christian. I not only believe in reincarnation but have seen, what to me, was pretty convincing proof - a couple of times. We all die. Nobody gets out of this life alive. And if the disability is severe enough, I believe the animal (or person) has a right to come back in a healthier, better body. It sucks that I've lost a bunch of weight and am finally starting to like my body, but reality is I probably won't get to keep it that long. But by that time, I'm sure I'll be ready for a trade in.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> Ethics may vary. Some breeders may consider it inhumane and unethical to keep up a severely disabled puppy who may be passed from home to home and end up in the shelter (which many do). I hate euthanizing pets, but have done it many times. I have to say, my beliefs aren't traditionally Christian. I not only believe in reincarnation but have seen, what to me, was pretty convincing proof - a couple of times. We all die. Nobody gets out of this life alive. And if the disability is severe enough, I believe the animal (or person) has a right to come back in a healthier, better body. It sucks that I've lost a bunch of weight and am finally starting to like my body, but reality is I probably won't get to keep it that long. But by that time, I'm sure I'll be ready for a trade in.


Certainly. But they're DELIBERATELY creating the disability. Totally different.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

ajw said:


> but seriously almost all the bad things that can come from the Collie family will turn up in merlexmerle, even in CERF, OFA, MDR1, etc... testing.  Do not support this breeding practice it's wrong!!


Which can also turn up in single merles and solids. and has nothing to do with being MM (except the eye thing, of course)


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Willowy said:


> Certainly. But they're DELIBERATELY creating the disability. Totally different.


No. They are creating a risk of the disability.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Pawzk9 said:


> No. They are creating a risk of the disability.


25% is a dang high risk. They are deliberately making the match knowing that, on average, 1/4 of the puppies will "have to" be killed. That's deliberately creating the disability.


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Laurelin said:


> And it is believed that in addition to breeding 100% merle litters a double merle stud will produce a clearer merling pattern. I have never seen people market a double merle stud dog in aussies the way they do in shelties or collies though.


I actually wondered if the idea of a 100% merle litter played any factor into breeding specifically for double merles.

Of course the things you're referencing are all about breeding specifically for a double merle which also means it's not a case when all double merle pups are culled.

I'm gonna stay out of the ethics of it. Ethics debates are too messy. I was mostly just curious if breeders had any logical reason behind purposefully breeding merle x merle.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> In essence, Most breeders believe the healthy normal pups they will produce in a merle to merle breeding will help the breed as a whole more than the lives of the 25% double merle puppies are worth.


IMO if 25% of the litter are sick and must be killed then it doesnt matter how great the other pups are. It can only be considered for "the greater good" if you don't count those sick pups as part of the greater whole. It _is_ deliberately creating a disability. I agree with Willowy here, the breed is an abstract concept, one which is important to the breeder and not the dogs. I think the concept of breed is useful when it creates healthier dogs better equipped to work with people (for whatever purpose). When breed or type begins interfering with health of the individuals is when I think breeders have lost their way. To clarify, I dont think all breeders or breeds have gone down that path, but IMO this practice does.

Lethal culling of severely disabled pups is understandable, compassionate even. Deliberately creating disabled pups who must then be euthanized is pretty... awful.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

zhaor said:


> I actually wondered if the idea of a 100% merle litter played any factor into breeding specifically for double merles.
> 
> Of course the things you're referencing are all about breeding specifically for a double merle which also means it's not a case when all double merle pups are culled.
> 
> I'm gonna stay out of the ethics of it. Ethics debates are too messy. I was mostly just curious if breeders had any logical reason behind purposefully breeding merle x merle.


Don't know if they do in Aussies, but in shelties they will advertise the studs and one of the main advertising points is that they will throw all merle litters. I've seen one ad state something along the lines of 'Use X Dog for your next blue litter!'

Like I said, I'm not familiar with aussies as much.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

aiw said:


> Lethal culling of severely disabled pups is understandable, compassionate even. Deliberately creating disabled pups who must then be euthanized is pretty... awful.


This is how I feel. I understand the reasoning, the whole "good of the breed" thing. I just don't buy it. I believe that if a breeder looks hard enough, they can find a great, non-merle match for their merle dog, one that will help produce puppies that will better the breed. 25% chance of serious issues is too high of a risk, in my opinion.

I am all for responsible breeding and have defended breeders and dog shows in many a thread. I don't consider this responsible breeding, and I wouldn't support a breeder who did this.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Laurelin said:


> Don't know if they do in Aussies, but in shelties they will advertise the studs and one of the main advertising points is that they will throw all merle litters. .


In my years I have never seen this in Aussies except MAYBE in the Puppy Mill/For-profit area, tho I can't recall a specific case even there. In our breed we have many very "clear" merles from triXmerle breedings so even the idea if a double merle producing clearer offspring is absurd in the Aussie.


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## joiceez (Nov 10, 2012)

Just make sure they don't have the MDR1 gene....

The contract sounds too stiff...we paid over $850 for both our blue merle females, but not for showing......our sweetest Aussie, Amy, who passed last year at 14 years, was a super mellow wigglebutt too...no prey drive... :0) but was one of my favorite dogs of all time..... You will enjoy whatever personality you get....they are a wonderful breed....


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## spanielorbust (Jan 3, 2009)

Keechak said:


> No, ignorant people always assume that double merle breeders do it to create some mystical "better colored" puppy.


Some people like to frame the topic, in defence of the breeders, that it is ignorant assumptions that make this type of pairing so deplorable.

It is not.



Keechak said:


> Which isn't true. All the puppies who are not double merle will look like any other puppy from a merle to tri cross. The only Double merle breeders who actually do it specifically for color are those who don't know about the health problems of double merle.
> 
> *The vast majority of breeders who have bred a double merle litter did NOT do it to get a certain color, they did it because the two dogs being bred complemented each other in structure and boodlines and health better than any other pairing they felt they could reasonably put together. *
> 
> ...


Well described (bolded parts). 

They are gifting the pups with a 25% risk for their ego then. Other decisions with LESS risk for the pups might produce pups that aren't 'quite' so good but that would most likely still be soundly structured and temperamented Aussies and GREAT pups (and if they looked hard enough would probably produce JUST as good).

They justify their choices as being from the basis of 'I can't find a better compliment for my dog'. I call B.S. If they cannot produce sound puppies without this risk then they shouldn't breed. PERIOD. If their ego is so hung up on breeding 'the best' and they are doing it on the backs of suffering pups they should be ashamed of themselves.

..........I would never support it myself. JMHO



CptJack said:


> That's just not fair. While I agree that it isn't something I would do, and wouldn't support a breeder who did, 'the good of the many versus the good of the one' is a COMMON ethical debate, without a clear answer. You can't just make it black and white like that and condemn everyone who doesn't share YOUR ethical view of it. Well, you can, but it doesn't really make it true.


I doesn't drill down to this though. The good of the many could be served if those breeders didn't entertain the double merle pairings. The breeders might think it might not be 'quite' so good, but it would still be good, and the rest is down to ego.

SOB


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

spanielorbust said:


> Other decisions with LESS risk for the pups might produce pups that aren't 'quite' so good, but that would most likely still be GREAT pups.
> 
> ..........I would never support it myself.
> 
> SOB


my thoughts exactly, and why I will never buy a pup from a MxM cross or intentionally produce one myself.


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## Ajones (Apr 19, 2013)

I've owned a Stoverly Aussie for almost a year now and he is the most amazing dog. I visited Sue twice before buying him and I felt very comfortable with her. Yes she is a bit odd and overly detailed (ie: the contract or email her a question and you get back an essay.) but she takes great care of her puppies.

The reason she has frequent litters is because most or all of her breeding dogs are co-owned. They are lovingly looked after by great owners. Sue arranged the matings and then the females go home to gestate. When they are ready they go to Sue's where they deliver and mom and Sue lovingly look after the newborns. They are crate trained and socialized before they leave. We got our dog at 12 weeks opposed to the usual 8 so he was more trained and had some extra deworming and booster and thus we paid a bit more. He is worth every penny, he has the most amazing personality, not shy at all, playful, sweet, smart, loyal, quiet, calm.....check the Stoverly facebook page and you will see how much owners love their Stoverly Aussies.

Her contract is crazy detailed but I think she is just that kind of person. We just wanted a great pet and we got that. I'm not worried about her coming in my house to see what Im feeding and taking my dog so I dont worry about what it might say. She just wants to make sure you look after your dog.

I cant say as to the working quality of the dogs, but we are taking our dog for herding instinct testing soon just for fun. Some of her dogs likely have more of a working bloodline than others.

There is a debate going on now regarding mini-aussies and will they be granted breed status. For now Sue's dogs are not CKC registered unless both parents are CKC. So if you want to do conformation then a mini not be for you but they can compete in special catergories.

As for price if she charges a little more for the merles it is because they is so much demand for them.

All in all you have nothing to worry about. She is a great breeder and her puppies are very well looked after. She is a little eccentric but her dogs a great, great health testing, great protection in our contract should anothing turn out wrong.

Yes you can get rescue dogs and there are lots of them out there but rescue dogs come usually with behavorial issues or worse. Our dog is a total angel


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## jojo66 (Dec 30, 2019)

Edlam said:


> I'll just say I've been looking for working line Aussies ... And damn they are hard to find. I've almost all but given up on that notion. Oh, I'm from ontario Canada by the way.
> 
> Been looking into this breeder, seems to be responsible and knows what she's doing. Socializes and works up close with all the pups and seems to care for them very well. On the other hand red flags for me include different prices on colours, and almost always having two litters at a time. I just can't make my mind up about her. Posts tons of videos on the page of pups that seem to be great, and also has a lot of information on her site - just is breeding for conformation and flashiness?
> Anyone have any insight?


just wondering what specific breeder you were looking into


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## LeoRose (Aug 20, 2015)

The OP hasn't been on the forum since November of 2012, so I doubt you will get an answer.


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