# Dominance Theory Debunked - Would like links...



## cydoc (Mar 21, 2013)

Hello all,

I started posting about 2 weeks ago and I absolutely love the forums. In my original/first post, I discussed possible dominance issues. I was told by many people that dominance theory has been largely debunked. Upon more research I keep seeing this pop up, yet no links!

Can anyone offer any links (or books) that shine light on how dominance theory has been debunked? I am enjoying reading up on EVERYTHING involving dogs these days!

Thanks for any and all help!


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## AkCrimson (Oct 12, 2011)

A majority of the stickies here mention why dominance theory is not appropriate for the subject they are covering. 

Also, look up kikopup on YouTube. I am sure others will have recommendations on books.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

http://avsabonline.org/uploads/position_statements/dominance_statement.pdf

Here is one of them. I'm sure Crantastic will show up with more, lol.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It of course depends on what you consider "dominance theory" . 

I found this thread, Crantastic's post is 3rd or 4th one down, has all her usual links: http://www.dogforums.com/first-time-dog-owner/148930-puppy-dominance-issues.html


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

This little book covers just about everything you'd need to know...


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=DOG+DOMINANCE+THEORY+DEBUNKED


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## AkCrimson (Oct 12, 2011)

spotted nikes said:


> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=DOG+DOMINANCE+THEORY+DEBUNKED


Haha I love lmgtfy


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

Is Crantastic okay? I'm a little worried.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Amaryllis said:


> Is Crantastic okay? I'm a little worried.


Why? I've been here!

Just so they're in this thread:

The Dominance Controversy (by Dr. Sophia Yin, DVM, MS)
De-Bunking the "Alpha Dog" Theory
AVSAB Position Statement on the Use of Dominance Theory in Behavior Modification of Animals
Misconceptions of the Mythical Alpha Dog
Wolf expert L. David Mech's site (he helped popularize the whole "pack order"/alpha/dominance thing, but later learned that much of what he believed was wrong)

Plus:

Enforcing vs. Reinforcing – Reflections on Leadership and Dogs
The History and Misconceptions of Dominance Theory
Is Punishment an Effective Way to Change the Behavior of Dogs?
Leader of the Pack

Getting more in-depth with (applied animal behaviorist) Patricia McConnell's series of blog posts about this:

The Concept Formerly Described as "Dominance"
The “D word” and Social Relationships in Dogs
Dogs & “Dominance” –What’s a Person to Do?
Dog Training and the “D” Word

And a video:


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Interesting reason material but the "positive" movement is just as good at slinging mud as their aversive counter parts as well as stubborn "my method works for every dog no matter what" & a lot of followers attack if you say that you have tried it & it doesn't work ... They say you must have not done it right or whatever. They are very accusing & condescending to folks who are just thing to learn or have a "special" dog that needs positive with a "tweak" so to speak lol.


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## cydoc (Mar 21, 2013)

God I love these forums. Thank you all so much! I got reading material that'll last me for a good while now!


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes, I have read some of it before too but it was nice to read it again.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

poll: How many here have used the word "debunked" on anything except dominance theory? LOL


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I know dominance has been debunked ... But everything I read about corsos, dogos & other mastiff type breeds & all the reading material I can find is dominance this & alpha that. They make it seem like you always have to have these dogs under your thumb, that doesn't sound very fun .

I think it is also worth mentioning that I would also be open to a rescue corso/dogo/ mastiff. I have seen menu groups on Facebook that I have friended & plan to contact when the time comes.


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## hueyeats (Apr 2, 2013)

Good links... should keep this thread going.
I'd also like more updates as well as the studies progress.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

"there is only one thing more absurd and futile than attempting to prove that dominant behavior exists and that is attempting to prove that dominant behavior does not exist."

Dr. Roger Abrantes


http://rogerabrantes.wordpress.com/2011/12/11/dominance-making-sense-of-the-nonsense/


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

jiml said:


> "there is only one thing more absurd and futile than attempting to prove that dominant behavior exists and that is attempting to prove that dominant behavior does not exist."
> 
> Dr. Roger Abrantes
> 
> ...


I believe you're taking Abrantes' quote a wee bit out of context. No one can deny that dominance is defined. What's denied is its application in dog training, and specifically dominance theoory, which is not the subject of your link.

That said, http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I believe you're taking Abrantes' quote a wee bit out of context. No one can deny that dominance is defined. What's denied is its application in dog training, and specifically dominance theoory, which is not the subject of your link.
> 
> That said, http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html.


I believe that has been stated many times on here that dominance "does not exist". I think most trainers (except maybe the cesar wannabee/copycats) weather they use aversives or not are not operating under the constant urge to "dominate" their dog. Dominance theory itself was not "debunked" it was altered. Its dynamic and situational 
.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I believe you're taking Abrantes' quote a wee bit out of context. No one can deny that dominance is defined. What's denied is its application in dog training, and specifically dominance theoory, which is not the subject of your link.
> 
> That said, http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html.


I read a fair bit of medical research as a a health care provider but this is tough reading for what seems to be saying she observed her dogs and some shelter dogs with an admitted pre-determined outcome. although I admit I have as yet only skimmed it.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

"Dominance between dogs and humans does not exist" is easier to say than a huge and complicated post about what "dominance" really means in both dog training and in "real life" (and which the majority of people will just skim over). When we say that, we usually provide some links like the ones in this thread so that the poster we're addressing can go read all about it in more detail if they choose. 

For example, in post #9 of this thread, I link to Patricia McConnell's series on the subject so that people can get really in-depth if they choose. But for most people who come on here asking for advice about how to stop their 14-week-old puppy from trying to "dominate" them, "dominance between dogs and humans is not a thing" with a couple of links debunking the subject and advice on how to proceed instead will suffice. Those people do not want a lecture about the history of dominance theory. They want to stop their puppy from nipping and jumping.


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## Kevin T (Apr 22, 2013)

Dominance theory's usefulness in dog training was best illustrated in the 1989 movie K-9. In the film, police dog Jerry Lee refused to acknoledge the dominant leadership of his new detective partner. He refused to obey, until Detective Dooley (played by Jim Belushi) established his dominance by telling the dog "Dont make me mount you!" Jerry Lee immediately became submissive to Dooley's leadership, acknowledging him as alpha.

Of course, your mileage may vary.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

being assertive or in charge puts you in a "dominant" position in the relationship or in training. Your boss is usually dominant yet that doesent mean he/she is abusive. It means he/she provides direction which you are expected to follow.


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## cydoc (Mar 21, 2013)

jiml said:


> being assertive or in charge puts you in a "dominant" position in the relationship or in training. Your boss is usually dominant yet that doesent mean he/she is abusive. It means he/she provides direction which you are expected to follow.


Exactly, I prefer the term "leader" than "dominant" as it shows you can still set boundaries but in a non-abusive way.


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## GrinningDog (Mar 26, 2010)

I've always thought that dominance in dogs exists, but only if you tie a completely different definition to it than the popular, Cesar Milan-esque. And because that incorrect definition IS the popular, commonly-used definition, it's much easier to tell people "Dominance doesn't exist!" I would argue that statement is more right than wrong in most contexts.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I like how this article puts it: http://bnrbc.ca/blog/enforcing-vs-reinforcing-reflections-on-leadership-and-dogs/



> Now, all this doesn't mean we shouldn't provide our dogs structure, boundaries and direction. Creating a consistent, predictable environment for you dog is incredibly important. Doing so helps to reduce stress and anxiety, and along with that comes the depletion or reduction of many behavior issues. I will almost always include a force-free leadership program as part of a behavior modification protocol.
> 
> Being a good leader (alpha, pack leader, mom, dad – whatever you want to call it!) for your dog doesn't mean they respond to you if you raise your voice or otherwise threaten them. It doesn't mean your dog absolutely needs to stay off the sofa or the bed, eat after you, or walk through doors after you. It doesn't mean you have to show your dog who is boss by staring him down, grabbing his muzzle, grabbing his scruff, smacking him, use a special collar, or alpha rolling him.
> 
> ...





> Being a good leader for your dog is a lot like being a good parent. Be patient, confident and forgiving of errors. We all forget the rules sometimes. Give guidance and direction as opposed to correction. Be an educator and a translator instead of a dominator. Provide a safe, stable, predictable environment and make sure your dogs physical and mental needs are met. If your dog’s behavior frustrates you, take a bit of time to teach your dog what you want them to do. Above all, protect your dog from harm – be someone your dog can trust and feel safe with. Try your best every day to be the person your dog thinks you are. You will not be perfect, but they will forgive you.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Kirsten&Gypsy said:


> I've always thought that dominance in dogs exists, but only if you tie a completely different definition to it than the popular, Cesar Milan-esque. And because that incorrect definition IS the popular, commonly-used definition, it's much easier to tell people "Dominance doesn't exist!" I would argue that statement is more right than wrong in most contexts.


I think this explains my views on it. I think that the moment the word "dominance" comes into a conversation with the average person in reference to dogs, it brings up so much bad programming that has leaked out from CM and his adherents that it simply becomes more useful to me not to use the word at all. I find it similar to how you can "poison a command" by overusing it or using it in the wrong way. Sometimes, it's just easier to come up with a new cue word than fight against all those confusing associations.

I do think dominance, stripped of all the weird CM extrapolations, is a useful concept to discuss, but only when the people involved have moved beyond those associations. I also don't think that it's very difficult at all to show a dog their place and that you are the leader. It doesn't take intimidation to do it. NILIF is a great way to reinforce that, if you feel you have a dog that needs that kind of reinforcement. Showing them that you are the one with the opposable thumbs and access to all the good stuff is usually more than sufficient to show them who should be in charge. Beyond that, I think making yourself a fun, awesome person to be around and turning almost anything you want the dog to do into a game is also a great way to motivate them to follow your lead. None of that requires intimidation.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

jiml said:


> poll: How many here have used the word "debunked" on anything except dominance theory? LOL


I probably use that particular word once a week, in reference to science, history and sociology. You probably shouldn't make assumptions about people on internet fora.


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## Kevin T (Apr 22, 2013)

Amaryllis said:


> I probably use that particular word once a week, in reference to science, history and sociology. You probably shouldn't make assumptions about people on internet fora.


That's certainly easy to believe, considering how much bunk fills the airwaves and Internet these days,
masquerading as fact.

It does seem a little bit cliche, though. Maybe we should coin a new term, like de-B.S.?


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