# Why I will NEVER Use a Collar Correction Again



## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

As some of the regulars know I have posted quite a bit daily until very recently. I woke up almost two weeks ago with a terrible pain traveling from my shoulder down my arm. Took myself to the Dr. and it has been diagnosed as an aggravated nerve at my C5 neck vertebrae. It MAY be a bulging disc or even a ruptured disc.. I don't know and there was no recent trauma to cause it. Out of work and going to get to the bottom of it ASAP.. I can't take much more f this pain. Being at the computer is the worse.. so this is going to be short (for me). 

All I know is that it hurts and the pain is unrelenting nerve pain. Drugs don't touch it.. and they have given me some pretty potent stuff.

I know we have heard of dogs with pinched nerves, bulging discs etc. in the back and neck. After going thru this.. STILL going thru this.. I can tell you that I will NEVER again use a collar correction or a pull on a dog's head to train it. Ever. 

Folks.. dogs are not trying to 'dominate' us. They aren't going for the 'alpha' position over humans in a household pack. Dogs are just being dogs... and it is our job to train them without using force (alpha rolls, neck yanks etc.) and by being consistant. It is our job to do this without hurting them. 

By golly, I can tell you that I would NEVER want to be party to causing the pain I am feeling right now on another living, breathing creature just to be able to say that creature will submit to my will and is, therefore, trained.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Well, if you are using leash corrections with enough force to actually HURT a dog, then I'm glad to hear you won't be doing them anymore.

Dogs learn by being taught what we do want (reinforcement) and what we don't want (correction). It's about knowing when and how to use each. For people who don't know how to do that, then they should stick with positive reinforcement only.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Sorry you're going through this. I don't use typical leash corrections, either, because it doesn't take much to injure a dog - be it spinal or treachea - especially with slip lead (choke chain) collars, but even with flat buckle. I will tap on the leash if need be, but never pull or jerk on it.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I never hurt a dog with a leash correction that I know of. I just know that, after having this pain today.. I never will use that method again. Ever. 

It isn't even an option in my mind anymore.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> I never hurt a dog with a leash correction that I know of. I just know that, after having this pain today.. I never will use that method again. Ever.
> 
> It isn't even an option in my mind anymore.


I just find it hard to believe that you are correcting dogs hard enough to cause any neck/back damage whatsoever. *If you feel better with no neck corrections*, go for it. I have an idea with the type of corrections you use, the dog has a much better chance of damaging his neck walking down the stairs or working agility or raindrops/snowflakes etc. Just My Opinion.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Correction collars work on the principal of pain. So I'm not sure what other way there is to use them. I've seen owners use them as accessories, perhaps even fashion statements but I hardly would call that effective. The only effective use of these tools *IS* to administer pain. We humans may want to minimize that effect so as to remain in the realm of humane, but we shouldn't ignore the fact that's how these collars work - through pain.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Whether it is pain or suprise that gets the dog to work.. that is not the point. I feel as if I have done nothing traumatic to have this pinched nerve in MY neck. I slopped some preservative on the deck surface the day b4.. and believe me.. I was neither neat, nor careful and it went quickly. It may be the incident that caused this. 

My point is only that it seems very little can happen and this is the result. I want no part of causing what I am suffering now to be inflicted on an animal. I am sure, WV, that you do not yee haw yank and haul ona dog's neck.. I would never suggest you do and I do not/did not either. 

I am just finding this pain that I am in debilitating. I am pretty tough and this has reduced me to tears and.. well, I cannot even begin to describe it. This is writhing in bed sort of pain.. and I just never ever want to pull on any animal's neck again. The neck and spine are a lot more delicate than I ever thought. 

Yes, animals can certainly get this sort of damage doing agility, field hunting, running in the yard... I am just saying I don't think I can ever consider pulling on a dog's (or other animal's) neck again in face of what I am suffering right now. 

I am actually starting to think that I may try all my future dog training and work OFF LEASH. 

I got to go lay back down and do some more writhing...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Correction collars work on the principal of pain. So I'm not sure what other way there is to use them. I've seen owners use them as accessories, perhaps even fashion statements but I hardly would call that effective. The only effective use of these tools *IS* to administer pain. We humans may want to minimize that effect so as to remain in the realm of humane, but we shouldn't ignore the fact that's how these collars work - through pain.


Agreed, but pain does not mean physical damage to dog. It may mean some ego adjustment to the dog. I believe elana55 is reacting to her own pain and I know this is sometimes how we change in life whether it's Physical/Mental pain or a good pleasant adventure in life. Things can change us for better or worse.


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## Crazie.Eddie (Mar 15, 2008)

I use a prong collar and worry about injuring my dog as well. What I do is I use 2 leashes at the same time. I hold a retractable leash on my left hand, which is connected to a Gentle Leader harness and a very short leash connected to her prong collar, on my right hand. I hold the short leash lightly, in between my 2 fingers. It's just gives enough strength for me to give a lite tug to give the correction, yet lose enough, that if she all of a sudden jumps/bolts, I could let go. Thus not having to worry about the prong collar getting accidently tightened. Since I have a secondary leash attached to her harness, I never have to worry about her getting away from me.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

wvasko said:


> Things can change us for better or worse.


And I think Elena is making the point that she didn't choose this pain, much like a dog doesn't choose pain. The emphasis should be on the choice, not the method.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I am making this choice out of what I am suffering right now.. and believe me, I am suffering. No idea where this is going.. just know that this is intolerable. 

My decision is based on never ever ever wanting to inflict this on another living being. Yes.. Stuff happens.. and we all get hurt.. I just don't want to ever be on the other end of the leash if it happens to one of my animals. 

This is my decision, made for me, by me and as a result of one of those things that you get in life that changes you. 

I am hoping this is not something that does some sort of massive life style change for me.. and it scares me. I would never want to accidently inflict this on an animal and cause them to have this. That is all I am saying. 

Fact is, if I am leading a well behaved dog and something spooks the dog, she could run, hit the end of the leash and hurt herself as bad as I am hurt right now. 

This pain I am having has given me a new appreciation of things is all I am saying.


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## TooneyDogs (Aug 6, 2007)

Elana, Good for you! You'll find the future training more challenging and at times frustrating but, you'll also discover a whole new world...it's exciting and worth every ounce of effort!


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I had already come over (mostly) to the positive reinforcement side anyway (not that this is a side or that there ARE sides). 

I had very good results and I got talked into it by "those Border Collie Ppl and their agility and sheep dogs." 

However, after I get better I am going to try to invoke a leashless training program and see how that works. No leashes. I actually invoked this last week anyhow as my Physical Therapist told me no dog on a leash for MY neck. He suggested I send my dog away for awhile.. for fear of my neck getting yanked.. I told him, "no Leash.." dog stayed. 

By now there shoud have been improvement in this.. and it has gone the WRONG way.. and I got thinking that if I have to go leashless to preserve MY neck, what about the dog at the other end?

This is for me. I am not telling other people what to do.. just reiterating an experience that I would not ever want anyone else to ever have to go thru, man or beast. This isn't coming out of anyplace but my own.. and out of necessity. 

I hope I DO get better.. and I am NOT sure I will.. and that has me REALLY scared. The ol' 'what ifs' are kicking in.. like What if I can't ever handle sheep again? What if I can't ride a horse again? move hay bales? paint my house.. and the absolute worse one.. because it is my job and how I make my living, health insuarance, and future.. WHAT IF I can't ever sit at a computer and type all day again? 

It is a life experience and I am facing it.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I've seen plenty of leash and lead corrections done to dogs and horses that I know had to hurt and have also seen animals damaged by such corrections. I have no doubt that even small, controlled corrections over time can result in severe pain. It makes me cringe to see dogs straining on their leads on walks, or owners popping their end of the lead for control. I used to pop leads, too, because I wrongly thought that was the way it had to be done. Now I reinforce my dogs for doing what I want them to do and we simply don't go any further than they are able to go on a loose leash or in heel position on leash or with no leash at all. The dogs want to go, so they quickly learn that walking next to me is much preferable than not walking or heading back to somewhere they've already been.


Neck and back pain are no fun and I hope you're feeling better soon.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> However, after I get better I am going to try to invoke a leashless training program and see how that works. No leashes. I actually invoked this last week anyhow as my Physical Therapist told me no dog on a leash for MY neck. He suggested I send my dog away for awhile.. for fear of my neck getting yanked.. I told him, "no Leash.." dog stayed.
> 
> By now there shoud have been improvement in this.. and it has gone the WRONG way.. and I got thinking that if I have to go leashless to preserve MY neck, what about the dog at the other end?


I do 99% of our dogs' training (obedience and agility) with no leash. I've found the training progresses much more quickly than it ever did with a leash...it's much more natural for both of us and I know I have a willing partner, not a captive one. There are a few other reasons I prefer it at well.

However, I would not rule out using leash corrections while, say, out on a walk. Our dogs know "leave it"...but they are also dogs and have a brain of their own. A leash correction (not a yank) can be all I need to refocus the dog. I don't use them all the time, but for a couple of our dogs it works great. Dog training, to me, isn't about "nevers" or "always" - it's about using the right tool(s) and the right technique(s) at the right time on the right dog.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I've never met a dog who didn't have a mind of it's own, just dogs who took more or less of a reason to do what I want instead of what they want.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

lovemygreys said:


> I do 99% of our dogs' training (obedience and agility) with no leash. I've found the training progresses much more quickly than it ever did with a leash...it's much more natural for both of us and I know I have a willing partner, not a captive one. There are a few other reasons I prefer it at well.
> 
> However, I would not rule out using leash corrections while, say, out on a walk. Our dogs know "leave it"...but they are also dogs and have a brain of their own. A leash correction (not a yank) can be all I need to refocus the dog. I don't use them all the time, but for a couple of our dogs it works great. Dog training, to me, isn't about "nevers" or "always" - it's about using the right tool(s) and the right technique(s) at the right time on the right dog.


Like I said, I have decided onthis due to my current pain and problems. I really mean it when I say never again. This is for ME. Not arguing over what anyone else does in this arena.. just my own decision coming out of something that I am finding difficult to deal with.

When I was in college there was a lesson horse they had that was a great teacher for kids learning to jump. She developed a pinched nerve in her neck.. they had her in a brace for MONTHS. The horse was in agony.. and the traumatic even was from being spooked while tied up. In the end she never really recovered and they had to put her down. I think back to this NOW.. and I am horrified. 

Most of the time I too would say to leave out the "never" and "always" in any training skill, be it dog training or horse training etc. However, on this one issue my current experience is making the decison for me. First of all, I would never want to inflict this on any dog and secondly, I am in a position where I cannot allow the dog to inflict it on me! 

Not arguing anyone's skills or tools.. just saying I never knew how painful this injury could be and my first hand up close and personal encounter with the pain is where this is coming from. I have decided to remove this tool from the box. It ought to be real interesting to see where that takes me. I expect to learn a LOT and I might even come up with a new technique. Who knows? 

I expect it is going to make things real interesting and will simply make it more challenging for me to come up with other ways to get the result I am after.


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> By golly, I can tell you that I would NEVER want to be party to causing the pain I am feeling right now on another living, breathing creature just to be able to say that creature will submit to my will and is, therefore, trained.


Well don't force your dog spend too much time on the computer then, because that's probably what's caused your pain!

OK, seriously, but I am also trying to break my collar correction habit, not only because of the potential to injure my dog but also because I have not been happy with the results. I think I may have actually contributed to my previous GSD's habitual pulling even with a prong collar. So I am going to use the leash only as a means to restrain the dog within a safe distance and use other methods, either motivational or e-collar, depending on the situation.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

My GSD has never been a puller, but I worked hard at this from the day I got her. Pulling is rude behavior. 

My intent is going to be to attempt to NEVER use a collar for any sort of training (e collar or otherwise). While a dog must learn about leashes and collars (due to leash laws in some areas), I want the leash to be a simple appendage, not a restraint. IOW's I want the leash to be viewed as "so what?" but the dog. 

I think it will be a huge challenge, so very interesting to do. My dog right now works very very well off leash but if in distracting situations is less reliable. I am going to be working on making her 100% no matter where we are. We started out on this ship anyway, but I still used some leash correction, I am now ready for a new voyage which is going to require creativity on my part if I am also to couple getting the training done in a timely manner. On ehting I have learned is that a harsh whisper gets her attention even better than any leash correction I ever applied. Fact is, when I need to use that harsh whisper she not only pays attention, she also adopts that appeasing posture. I haven't laid a hand on her.. This may be this one dog who reacts like this, but it works. 

I agree.. the compuer is probably the thing that put my pain over the edge. I was drafting for 3 years at the 'puter (Civil Engineering.. Bridge design) and now I do a lot of writing at the computer. I have some intense projects and you know.. if the problem is intense, you can do so much better solving it if you scrootch up with your nose about 6 inches from the screen... 

Sort of like vacuuming the house. You CAN walk around standing upright.. the handle is long enough.. and let the vaccuum do the job, but if it is a dirty spot, hunching over makes it clean somuch better... 

While neither screen sniffing or vaccuum hunching actually DOES make a difference, it is human nature to put our body parts closer to the work when we have a problem. *sigh* I try to really pay attention to this, but sometimes I still scrootch and scruntch myself and a few hours of that can do you in.


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

wyx said:


> So I am going to use the leash only as a means to restrain the dog within a safe distance and use other methods, either motivational or e-collar, depending on the situation.


So....you won't learn how to do a proper leash correction, but you are A-OK with shocking your dog? Honestly, you should probably just stick with positive reinforcement.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

lovemygreys said:


> So....you won't learn how to do a proper leash correction, but you are A-OK with shocking your dog? Honestly, you should probably just stick with positive reinforcement.


Yes. I agree with this.

BTW LMG, I think your Greyhounds are just beautiful. My Brother wants to get one someday.. when his schedule and wife allow it. A track rescue is what he is thinking about. They are truly beautiful dogs. 

I DID tell him you could never trust the dog off leash.. and if I am wrong about that, please correct me. He would be wonderful with such a dog. 

Heck.. he just LOVES my dog to death.. spoils her like any good Uncle would! LOL


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## lovemygreys (Jan 20, 2007)

Elana55 said:


> BTW LMG, I think your Greyhounds are just beautiful. My Brother wants to get one someday.. when his schedule and wife allow it. A track rescue is what he is thinking about. They are truly beautiful dogs.
> 
> I DID tell him you could never trust the dog off leash.. and if I am wrong about that, please correct me. He would be wonderful with such a dog.
> 
> Heck.. he just LOVES my dog to death.. spoils her like any good Uncle would! LOL


Awwww...thanks!  I'm pretty fond of 'em myself  You are correct that greyhounds (like most sighthounds) should not be off leash in an unfenced area. Esp retired racers - they've lived their entire life in a pretty controlled and safe environment where recall isn't terribly important. They tend to chase first and ask questions later.


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## Guardian (May 17, 2008)

lovemygreys said:


> Well, if you are using leash corrections with enough force to actually HURT a dog, then I'm glad to hear you won't be doing them anymore.
> 
> Dogs learn by being taught what we do want (reinforcement) and what we don't want (correction). It's about knowing when and how to use each. For people who don't know how to do that, then they should stick with positive reinforcement only.


People who cannot/will not handle a dog should not own a dog.

And then there are those people who over correct. I see this in the park sometimes. Once and fast is better then three times and slow. You don't want to condition a dog to being constantly corrected, that removes the value of the correction.

That said there are certain types of collars I will not touch, sheerly because I think they are inhumane. However I respect that people are entitled to an opinion and will not freak out if I know they are using a collar I do not like. I don't like prong collars. There are a few people on here who I tend to agree with who use them. It is not my style, but I am not going to force my opinions on them. 

Then there are halties, I don't like those either. There are numerous problems with them. I was told by a vet never to use one.


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

lovemygreys said:


> So....you won't learn how to do a proper leash correction, but you are A-OK with shocking your dog? Honestly, you should probably just stick with positive reinforcement.


I don't want to use corrections at all to teach my dog simple leash manners. As I've mentioned before, I was less than happy with the results. The leash is for restraint only, not correction. It is attached to a harness, not a collar, which eliminates the chance of accidental corrections, and if I need to restrain the dog it will be more comfortable and have less chance of injury than a collar. Where do you get the idea that this means I don't know how to do leash corrections?

The e-collar is mainly for off-leash work, and I have no intention of using it to shock my dog.


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## ChrissyBz (Aug 10, 2007)

Elana, so sorry. I hope you can get hold of some decent drugs to either numb the pain or send you to lala land.


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## Chicster (Jan 17, 2008)

I'm so sorry about your injury Elana... wishing you a speedy recovery!

I'm so thankful that I learned about clicker training and other positive methods before getting Cody because I honestly CAN'T use physical corrections on him. He is so delicate that even something that would be light to a bigger dog could probably seriously injure him.

It's challenging because he's so darn stubborn, but it's fun too because I know that training is fun for him and not a task to be feared.


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## wyx (May 23, 2008)

Elana55 said:


> My GSD has never been a puller, but I worked hard at this from the day I got her. Pulling is rude behavior.


I made a lot of mistakes with my first GSD (he was VERY hard and either didn't notice or forgave me), which is why I'm trying the non-correction approach for teaching leash manners with my new GSD puppy (also a high-drive working-line dog). With much better results - he hardly ever pulls when it's extended, though we have a way to go on heeling.


> My intent is going to be to attempt to NEVER use a collar for any sort of training (e collar or otherwise). While a dog must learn about leashes and collars (due to leash laws in some areas), I want the leash to be a simple appendage, not a restraint. IOW's I want the leash to be viewed as "so what?" but the dog.


When I say "restrain within a safe distance of me" I didn't say the leash should be kept tight all the time! It's to restrain the dog from running into the street or jumping on people. It's my goal to make sure the leash is never tight unless the dog tightens it.


> I think it will be a huge challenge, so very interesting to do. My dog right now works very very well off leash but if in distracting situations is less reliable.


My GSD puppy's dam Remy was SchH2 titled by a handler who needs two canes to walk. I think she would have gone for SchH3 but the handler needs to be able to run for that. I can ask his breeder for more details if you are interested. http://www.sontausen.allk-9.com/remy.htm

Anyway, good luck with the neck problem, it sounds awful.


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