# Dog Punishment



## pet portrait (Jun 29, 2007)

Hello everyone!

I learned from our neighbor that his dog has become more alert and conscious about doing the right things after applying dog punishments. I'm not sure though about the exact punishment that he's giving to his dog. But for all of you out there who are in favor of this, please tell me what's the best punishment for dogs to exact obedience?


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## EXBCMC (Jul 7, 2007)

This should be interesting.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Without knowing what the punishment is, and the context in which it's being used, there's no way to comment on it.


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

Hmmm...I think I would need to hear more...


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

I dont believe in punishment on animals. Dogs live for the moment. they live to get to the next minute. In a millisecond a dog moves on from one thing to the next. Puddles for example.....she wants to play, i am busy, she moves on to running under the bed, chewing on my rug, ripping the toilet paper roll to shreds,trying to bury her toy in my recliner and pulls out the button tuck, peeing on the rug and digging up a potted plant in the sunroom then runaroundbarkiinghercrazyheadoff, then lay down for a nap All in 5 minutes. I come inside to what? A mess..should i punish her? no. I should kick my own butt for one. and number two, shes a dog. Shes moved on. Punishment could never exact obedience as you say..it festers resentment.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

We have an old school blackboard in our basement. I like to make my new pup write on it, "I will not piddle on the carpet" 100 times after school.

That gets her attention.


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

I *do* use punishments- I'll use positive punishments (an aversive consequence applied directly after a behavior to decrease the frequency of that behavior) in the form of collar corrections to refine a known, trained behavior in specific contexts (ie, during a training session.) I think your neighbor is full of BS. Dogs just don't generalize that way.


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## brunettedogmommy (Oct 11, 2007)

The only thing I can think of that your neighbor *may* mean is punishment like social isolation to convey to a dog that they cannot jump/bite/bark at you and expect to get away with it. Physical punishment doesn't really work for dogs, they don't really understand why they are being punished and it can make them either aggressive or fearful.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

im sure im going to get slaughtered by this.

but i got my a lab/aussie mix from the SPCA when she was 5 months, now she is around 11 months, she had very little training or discipline. well i guess i grew up different than most, but im a believer in a little swat to the backside to get attention, now i can say her name once and if she doesnt listen i speak a little louder and she knows oh man i better stop and she does. now dont take this out of context i didnt say abuse, i know the difference.

on the opposite, my mom thinks its not nice to do that, well thats why her dog is jumping on peoples heads when they sit on the couch and she is still yelling at him to stop. and he even went to training.


on a different note, sometimes its not bad to think like a dog. now i have 4 dogs at my house, the 11 month mix, a 21 month pit bull and 2 6 month old brothers i rescued. watching them helped me realize alot, you have to think like them. what do you think happens in the dog world, how do you think they know when to not eat another dogs food, they get snapped at or a fast bite, thats how they learn. 

just my 2 cents, hehe.


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## starry15 (Jan 20, 2007)

Star will get punished if he run up the stairs becuase hes not allowed or just is being plain bad like running off to the neighbors and wont listen to me when i whistle for him. His punishment is to sit in a corner for a few mins while him and I both cool off. Then I walk over to him sit down and say that was bad (and say whatever he did then I say that was a NO,NO) then he licks me and he does back to playing.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Punishment needn't be physical. The simple act of ignoring a dog can be, and most often is, a punishment to the dog. 

And yes ar3151, you should be swatted yourself.  Fear does not equal learning.


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## the-tenth (Jun 29, 2007)

Now with Chewy, if she's got her eye on a squirrel or a bunny, I have to nudge her to get her attention. I'm not chasing her with a rolled up newspaper or a flyswatter, but that's the only way to get her attention. It in no way intills any fear or anger into her, kind of like a tap on the shoulder. Now that's not punishment, but it is slightly physical. I know with all of our dogs, not being paid attention to is about the worst thing that could happen to them.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> Punishment needn't be physical. The simple act of ignoring a dog can be, and most often is, a punishment to the dog.
> 
> And yes ar3151, you should be swatted yourself.  Fear does not equal learning.


ya ignoring her lead to the tearing up of clothing, furniture....etc. so what do you do then?


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## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

I use alot of interruption and redirection with my dogs. If they are chewing something they are not supposed to be, like Penny's new thing, table legs, if I catch her doing it I clap my hands and say ah ah, then give her an appropriate chew toy/bone. I usually call her out of the room she was in too, like if she was doing that in the dining room, I interrupt, call her in the living room, and give a toy. If they have one of the kids stuffed animals or a sock or something, I give the command "drop it" trade them for one of their toys. If I don't catch them in the act, say if I leave the room and come back to something chewed up, they get no punishment. I don't believe they know what they are being punished for after the fact, and it's my fault for leaving them unsupervised with stuff they could get into.

The ignoring I mostly use with things like jumping up. If they are jumping on me or being rowdy I don't give them any attention until they settle down.

The third thing I use is management. I use baby gates to block them off from areas of the house I don't want them in. I can keep them downstairs only, upstairs only, or in the kitchen. Crates when I am not home, and anything I don't want them getting to, like trash, shoes, etc, is behind closed doors or on a high shelf.

I really don't put my hands on my dogs at all during training, and it is working for me.


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## NorthernLights (Oct 3, 2007)

Interruption and distraction are priceless in my book. 

When Orchid is being rough to deal with, we ask her "Where is your ____" and she'll run and get her ball, stuffed animal, rope bone, whatever we asked her to bring. 

Then, we'll throw it to her multiple times and take her for a short walk. 

When we're done, the behavior stops.

Orchid is also only able to get in certain areas of the house. We have baby gates blocking doors where we don't want her to go. 

Crate training has been such a blessing for us. I think everyone should consider trying it.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

i did find that the stealing of paper to tear up, chewing was lack of attention and that slowed tremendously when i realized that and paid her more attention. now that i have 3 other dogs to keep her occupied.

but the 2 6 month olds i rescued didnt have much for potty training and in less than 2 weeks there has been 80% change in them not going in the house.

another thing that helped train the little ones is after all 4 use the restroom outside i would treat all of them with a puppy biscuit, so its not like i abuse my dogs. my dogs are extremely happy. hehe


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

ar3151 said:


> ya ignoring her lead to the tearing up of clothing, furniture....etc. so what do you do then?


In addition to the great suggestions above, it also helps if you don't leave stuff around for her to get into.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> In addition to the great suggestions above, it also helps if you don't leave stuff around for her to get into.



yes this has been a great learning process, and im currently working on training my girlfriend on that one also, haha. im to anal about my stuff anyways i always shut the door and dont even give the option.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

I beat my dogs over the head with a 2by4 like any good Rottweiler owner. You have to get their attention. NOT! Seriously though, I find redirection and modeling works best. I have seen many folks that believe in rough handling as the only way to teach a dog RESPECT. What I have found is they often have dog that is fearful and shuts down, or becomes a risk of fear biting. Either way it is not what I want of my dogs. When dogs first come in there is some serious time spent with the dog and they tend to get a lot of leash corrections until they understand what is expected of them. My goal is a safe dog that enjoys working. Can't beat that into them.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

ar3151 said:


> yes this has been a great learning process, and im currently working on training my girlfriend on that one also, haha. im to anal about my stuff anyways i always shut the door and dont even give the option.


Yes, sometimes us humans are the hardest to train.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> I use alot of interruption and redirection with my dogs.


I think Esther read that book.

When Molly is chewing on something that previously belonged to Esther (which would be just about anything) Esther will find one of Molly's toys, drop it in front of her and say, "Woof!"

I've been paying attention 'cause it works.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

ar3151 said:


> my dogs are extremely happy.


How do you know they are happy? What do the dog's do to show you that they are happy? And "extremely" happy at that?

Swatting a dog is tantamount to swatting a blind person because they can't read. You first teach the dog how to "be", then punish the dog with instruction when you need them to "be". If you need your dog to stay away from your personal items, teach "off" or "leave-it". If it's an owner-not-present problem, whether mental or physical, use distraction when the dog is still learning or management as Sheltimom suggested. 

Keep in mind this too...how you build your relationship will largely determine how your dog will "be" when older. I prefer not to have a flighty dog - a dog that chooses to hide in a corner, instead of doing a behavior that I'm asking for. I don't even want to risk it by hitting my dog. I prefer to build trust between my dog and I, so, I chose the least intrusive, the least aversive, punishments first, when I need to, but no punishment should be a substitute for training the behaviors we want.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> How do you know they are happy? What do the dog's do to show you that they are happy? And "extremely" happy at that?
> 
> Swatting a dog is tantamount to swatting a blind person because they can't read. You first teach the dog how to "be", then punish the dog with instruction when you need them to "be". If you need your dog to stay away from your personal items, teach "off" or "leave-it". If it's an owner-not-present problem, whether mental or physical, use distraction when the dog is still learning or management as Sheltimom suggested.
> 
> Keep in mind this too...how you build your relationship will largely determine how your dog will "be" when older. I prefer not to have a flighty dog - a dog that chooses to hide in a corner, instead of doing a behavior that I'm asking for. I don't even want to risk it by hitting my dog. I prefer to build trust between my dog and I, so, I chose the least intrusive, the least aversive, punishments first, when I need to, but no punishment should be a substitute for training the behaviors we want.



i know she is happy, when i come home she says her hello, we play, she is attached at my hip at night in my bed. he tail is always wagging, i mean i dont know how else to explain it. i have seen dogs like you are talking about and that IMO is because the owner only disciplined never let the dog know it was ok after every one cooled down. when i have/had to discipline her afterwards she comes to say sorry and we make amends, she runs off to grab a toy and play. 

in the morning when we wake up she has to have a certain amount of petting and then she runs off wagging that tail chasing the puppies around ha ha.


i think im saying this the wrong way. if they dog has toilet paper in her mouth from the bathroom and ready to shred it, i tell her thank you, and pet, make it seem like she is doing a routine. 

if im standing the middle of the room and she takes a number 2, she gets the swat. of course this being said i havent had to do that in months, cause early on we built that relationship, she is my dog, i am the alpha male.

3 of the dogs this morning stole a sock while we were getting ready and luckily i caught them out the corner of my eye and i did what i said, took and said thank you. 

example: i read on some stories where people say that they put their dog in time out everytime they go across the street or whichever, well i swatted a couple of times and now im not having to repeat the same discipline. there is no "everytime" i have to do this, well that is no more.


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## Tamara (Dec 6, 2006)

Swatting has nothing to do with being a good leader - or Alpha as you put it. We aren't dogs as much as dogs aren't human so trying to emulate punishment behaviour of dogs is quite impossible. IMO it is not even necessary to shout at your dog - except for our emergency word - stop - when I shout that they all sit down and look at me like Holy sh*t. We have 3 of a breed which is notoriously stubborn. I have never felt they needed to be swatted because that would get all of us nowhere. .


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

Tamara said:


> Swatting has nothing to do with being a good leader - or Alpha as you put it. We aren't dogs as much as dogs aren't human so trying to emulate punishment behaviour of dogs is quite impossible. IMO it is not even necessary to shout at your dog - except for our emergency word - stop - when I shout that they all sit down and look at me like Holy sh*t. We have 3 of a breed which is notoriously stubborn. I have never felt they needed to be swatted because that would get all of us nowhere. .


you are right, we arent dogs, so speaking english doesnt always get the point across. since we are smarter than dogs its easier to understand their behaviour IMO making it easier emulate punishment. i stated earlier that the swatting is not a common thing, and by now its getting to be a thing in the past. people all see it in a different way, i guess its just whatever that person feels is good for them to work with their dogs. in my experience i have seen some people that do the "no physical punishment" and that dog still gets to carried away. not speaking for everyone, but my method worked for me, i tried the whole non-physical and it wasnt enough. being a good leader is showing how to lead them. beating the crap out of dog doesnt show sh** but a person that is making a dog be scared of them.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Friends, the wheel is turning but the gerbil is dead.

Save your breath.


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## Shalva (Mar 23, 2007)

RonE said:


> Friends, the wheel is turning but the gerbil is dead.
> 
> Save your breath.


oh my gosh ron where do you come up with this stuff


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

RonE said:


> Friends, the wheel is turning but the gerbil is dead.
> 
> Save your breath.


Who killed my freaking gerbil???


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

RonE said:


> Friends, the wheel is turning but the gerbil is dead.
> 
> Save your breath.


hahaha priceless... yeah being alpha doesnt mean you "manhandle" your dog... and really, chloe doesnt do much to really have to "punish" her about. she will put her nose on tables or in a bag and you just say "HEY" real sharp and she stops and does something else. the only thing i have had to "punish" her for is getting too carried away with my neice when playing. shes only 2 (my neice), Chloe is 6months and 50lbs, she knocked my neice down and was jumping around and smacking her with her paw the other day, she had never done that before, she was really excited because for the first time she was playing in the leaves. so i snached up the kid and put Chloe inside with the doors shut in a "time out" she barked and barked, and when she stopped, i went in, told her to "sit" made her lay down and let me pet her and then let her back out. it worked well. its not like she meant to be bad, she just got carried away, shes only a baby


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> Who killed my freaking gerbil???


I was thinking the same sort of thing...why on earth are we killing gerbils here now?!?!


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

I think Richard Gere has saught his revenge.









(Points finger at Grandpaw Ron) It's his fault.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

ar3151 said:


> if im standing the middle of the room and she takes a number 2, she gets the swat. of course this being said i havent had to do that in months, cause early on we built that relationship, she is my dog, i am the alpha male.


I learned (from personal experience for once) that swatting/yelling at a dog while it is going #1 or 2 in the house will not teach them not to go in the house. It teaches the dog that the act of going is bad, NOT that going in the house is bad.

I also learned in class that in order for a dog to understand (to a certain extent) what it is doing that is wrong you have to "correct" in less than 3 seconds after the act. So there is no point in punishing a dog for wrecking the house if you didnt see it happen.


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## FriendsOfZoe (Aug 7, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> (Points finger at Grandpaw Ron)


GrandPAW Ron, eh? I don't know what's worse...you coming up with that or the fact that I actually laughed out loud and had to try to explain it to my boyfriend (who now knows for sure that we are all nuts).


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

Curbside Prophet said:


> I think Richard Gere has saught his revenge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh no you didn't...ROFL!


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## Love's_Sophie (Sep 23, 2007)

RonE said:


> Friends, the wheel is turning but the gerbil is dead.
> 
> Save your breath.


I had to count my gerbils...just in case!!!!!


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I will confess I did once hit my husky, really hard. I was stupid and it was a fit of rage of sorts. Since I am deaf I can not hear growls. Well it turns out he was rawhide aggressive. I got bitten hard and he would not let go, and I ended up socking him.

Now I know you guys think I am horrible. I did not see anything coming and if something attacks me my gut tells me to fight back. However if there is one thing I learned from this is, after I socked him and he got back up, baring his teeth at me, ready to jump at me.. it was not a fight I would win without getting hurt very badly.

I never intended to punish or hit my dog before this... but many people have told me a little "manhandling" will teach a dog respect. What I felt they did not realize is, his breed dictates he is going to be stubborn. I knew that and I love that independent nature of his.

And now having experinced this by accident... I will never raise my hand at a dog, ever, no matter what. No matter how tough you are, a dog has sharp teeth and it's their only means of offense and defense. A man can fight and kill or submit a dog, but they will end up torn and bloody for it.

Next time someone tells me to manhandle my dog to teach it some respect, I'll encourage them to try if they dare, after showing them the wound I now have on my wrist, which will probably end up scarred.

While I could not have helped the fact I am deaf and I can't hear the noises he makes, I was still an idiot for my impulse reaction. That is why punishment often is a dangerous thing. Now, I know not everyone is talking about punishment in the manner of hitting a dog. But I think when a dog fears what is coming or knows something bad is coming they will do what is natural to them.

I will from now on always do postive reinforcement. He still loves me and is happy around me despite it and I would hate to have a Husky that lost it's spirit of being a dog, that is scared of when punishment might come, instead of one that will be guided postively towards a mutual happiness so we can coexist with respect for one another, not Alpha and Subordinate, but two spirits linked and coexisting for each other's happiness.

Just my two cents.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> I learned (from personal experience for once) that swatting/yelling at a dog while it is going #1 or 2 in the house will not teach them not to go in the house. It teaches the dog that the act of going is bad, NOT that going in the house is bad.
> 
> I also learned in class that in order for a dog to understand (to a certain extent) what it is doing that is wrong you have to "correct" in less than 3 seconds after the act. So there is no point in punishing a dog for wrecking the house if you didnt see it happen.



interesting, cause it works for me and i have a 10 month old out of a crate and will not go in the house. who says that it teaches them that the act of going is bad, she goes outside and uses them restroom, not in my house. so in plain site its proven to work. you dont beat the crap out of them, i havent even hit hard enough to hear a yelp, swat, show them, set them outside to finish. works well for me. 


that 3 second rule IMO only is BS, we tried to leave her out of the crate at about 7 months for 1 hr while we went to the store and to come back to all kinds of paper shreded up..etc, i looked at her and pointed to her mess and asked what happened her, she put her ears back and lowered her head. so that tells me she knew she tore that stuff up, of course me and my girl laughed at it cause she knew she did wrong no reason to take it any further.

i actually have it on my cell phone i will see if i can upload it.



GreatDaneMom said:


> hahaha priceless... yeah being alpha doesnt mean you "manhandle" your dog... and really, chloe doesnt do much to really have to "punish" her about. she will put her nose on tables or in a bag and you just say "HEY" real sharp and she stops and does something else. the only thing i have had to "punish" her for is getting too carried away with my neice when playing. shes only 2 (my neice), Chloe is 6months and 50lbs, she knocked my neice down and was jumping around and smacking her with her paw the other day, she had never done that before, she was really excited because for the first time she was playing in the leaves. so i snached up the kid and put Chloe inside with the doors shut in a "time out" she barked and barked, and when she stopped, i went in, told her to "sit" made her lay down and let me pet her and then let her back out. it worked well. its not like she meant to be bad, she just got carried away, shes only a baby




lets not take things out of context, no where have i EVER said i have manhandled my dog, so please dont come to your own conclusions about my personal dog training styles.

and there always has to be an alpha leader, these are dogs not humans, it might help some people to pick up an encyclopedia and do some reading about "canis lupis familiaris".


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

> so that tells me she knew she tore that stuff up


It tells me that your dog knew, from your tone and posture, that she was in trouble. That doesn't mean she knew why.

But, clearly, you've made up your mind about how to train your dog and you're convinced it's working. But please don't be upset if you can't convince anyone here.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

RonE said:


> It tells me that your dog knew, from your tone and posture, that she was in trouble. That doesn't mean she knew why.
> 
> But, clearly, you've made up your mind about how to train your dog and you're convinced it's working. But please don't be upset if you can't convince anyone here.


LOL no one here is getting upset, i was getting irritated when people taking things out of context. im not here to convince, but isnt a message board a way for everyone to express his/her thoughts?

and reread i said we were laughing, so there was no tone or posture to show her that we were made. so no she didnt see it that way.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

My opinion..

Your dog will never view you as an alpha, the way it views other dogs as an alpha..

The reason your dog cowered when you took it to the mess and pointed at it is because you looked upset, not because he understood you were telling him the torn paper was bad. Lets take it to context... were I to have an father that hits me as a punishment, and I walked in and obviously knew he was pissed about something, I would cower like the dog did as well.

If I had a father that went, "Hey.. you know, that was bad.. and showed me the right thing to do" I would be happier with him and we would have a relationship based on trust not fear.

Now before you argue that about giving a kid a good whack for being bad.. Dogs don't do things out of meanness and spite. The reason your dog tore up those papers is equivalent to putting a 2 year old in a room with nothing to do and be suprised he tried to amuse itself somehow. So the fault lies in you.

My dogs never do that because they are too tired to get bored and sleep all day.

Your housebreaking would have done just as well by taking it out while it's in the act, without the punishment. That's how people train.. pick the dog up, bring it outside, give a treat. No need for punishment.

As for alpha... you are not a dog. Even trying to become a alpha is reserved for people who have read every behavioral book there is and learned from it, how to send signals, and so on. But all a human can do is imitate it to an extent.



ar3151 said:


> LOL no one here is getting upset, i was getting irritated when people taking things out of context. im not here to convince, but isnt a message board a way for everyone to express his/her thoughts?
> 
> and reread i said we were laughing, so there was no tone or posture to show her that we were made. so no she didnt see it that way.


I am only a human, and I can tell when someone is lying when they are trying to hide it.

You can't hide your thoughts from a dog, who is extraordinary at reading body language. All the most simple things that you never thought of is what is sending off the signals.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

ar3151 said:


> who says that it teaches them that the act of going is bad, she goes outside and uses them restroom, not in my house. so in plain site its proven to work.


Skinner said, among others. But unlike he, Skinner used far more trials and way more animals than you will ever have in your life time. So, your theory, unlike his, is purely anecdotal. Your observations can alsoe be explained using learning theory, but not in any way you've suggested.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

RBark said:


> My opinion..
> 
> Your dog will never view you as an alpha, the way it views other dogs as an alpha..
> 
> ...




you say if you had a father, well wait you cant speak for the dog. 

i know that was my fault for leaving the papers where she could get them, hence why i said i didnt punish her for it and we laughed, if you reread above i stated we laughed when we walked in. i never gave a negative sign or mean stern tone. heck it was hard, but she knew, we laughed petted her, picked it up and went on. 

dogs are pack animals and every pack has a leader. and that would be the alpha. you are right i am not a dog, but the dog is not a human there for it is not as smart. although highly intelligent.



Curbside Prophet said:


> Skinner said, among others. But unlike he, Skinner used far more trials and way more animals than you will ever have in your life time. So, your theory, unlike his, is purely anecdotal. Your observations can alsoe be explained using learning theory, but not in any way you've suggested.


skinner says doesnt really help me, since its at my house and my dog. im really not sure what skinner did, and i respect him for working so hard. i myself might learn some things in time from him also.

guys im not here to have a pissing contest. im here to talk, maybe we all can learn something.


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## Ixala (Aug 24, 2007)

I think a kind of cost-benefit analysis is a very useful analogy for evaluating the use of punishment, and doesn't require specialized knowledge.

Punishing may work, but at what cost? Some of our actions earn our dog's trust in us, some things we do ruin our dog's trust. Swatting a dog may change the dog's behavior (in learning theory, it's not actually "punishment" unless it serves to reduce the behavior), but swatting the dog may also cause the dog to be less trustful. So, analyze the cost and benefit, and you'll have your own model for what's acceptable. 

I mostly use luring, shaping and rewards to teach new behaviors, not punishments. Rewards and "up" energy earn my dog's trust while she's learning, so it's very win-win.

However, I did teach my dog to "wait" at the curb before entering the street by scaring her (yelling and a leash pop). I probably lost a little trust in her the afternoon I taught that, but keeping her out of the street is important enough that I was willing to risk it. 

And, since dogs really don't seem to carry much emotional baggage, all the supportive, nurturing work I do with her erased any losses, probably by later that evening. So, I've ended up with a good relationship with my happy dog who doesn't tread into the street. Cost/Benefit=successeful.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

like i have said i dont have to swat anymore, the point was gained months ago. but i always love on all 4 at the house. i really need to work on the whole leash thing, we really havent taken her out for walks. when we first got her, she hated the leash she would work herself out of that collar and that was that. now when we leave and she gets to go in a car ride, we open the garage door and she walks around the truck and then we open the door and she jumps in and we leave. i think she has issues being we got her from a kennel. not sure tho.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

ar3151 said:


> that 3 second rule IMO only is BS, we tried to leave her out of the crate at about 7 months for 1 hr while we went to the store and to come back to all kinds of paper shreded up..etc, i looked at her and pointed to her mess and asked what happened her, she put her ears back and lowered her head. so that tells me she knew she tore that stuff up, of course me and my girl laughed at it cause she knew she did wrong no reason to take it any further.


IMO - you're logic is totally flawed on this - there is no way on this green earth that she understood what you were upset about. SillyLilyKtty, RonE, Curbside, RBark are all 100% correct.
You're dog didn't _know_ what she did was wrong one bit, she was merely reacting to your demeanor. No matter what you think, all you are doing is attributing human cognitive ability and culture onto dogs....projecting, anthropomorphizing and dogs simply don't think like us. 
Bad or unwanted behavior is the result of incorrect or a lack of training, plain and simple. They don't deserve to be punished, they deserve to be shown what is wanted in a way they can understand.



> and there always has to be an alpha leader, these are dogs not humans, it might help some people to pick up an encyclopedia and do some reading about "canis lupis familiaris".


And it might help you to do some reading up on dog behavior - Applied behavioral scientists, highly esteemed trainer-authors and behaviorisists with PhDs in animal behavior, have made it their lifes work studying dog behavior. These indviduals have found that you do not need to use force to get your dog to behave NOR to prove your "alpha-ness". 
I am still boggled that people still relentlessly hang onto wolf pack/Alpha/Dominance theory to train dogs when there is so much research and evidence to debunk it.

Here are some great articles for anyone who might be interested. 

History and Misconceptions of the Dominance Theory

The Macho Myth

Why Can't a Dog Be More Like A Dog

Debunking the Dominance Myth


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

BoxMeIn21 said:


> IMO - you're logic is totally flawed on this - there is no way on this green earth that she understood what you were upset about. SillyLilyKtty, RonE, Curbside, RBark are all 100% correct.
> You're dog didn't _know_ what she did was wrong one bit, she was merely reacting to your demeanor. No matter what you think, all you are doing is attributing human cognitive ability and culture onto dogs....projecting, anthropomorphizing and dogs simply don't think like us.
> Bad or unwanted behavior is the result of incorrect or a lack of training, plain and simple. They don't deserve to be punished, they deserve to be shown what is wanted in a way they can understand.
> 
> ...


so basically what you are saying is, you are totally right and i am totally wrong? no one but me and my girl was there. its cool either way. im open to opinions.

its cool yall can all bash me and tell me im wrong, who all has this "Phd" anyways? i dont go around forcing my dog to think im the alpha, i guess yall really dont read all of my posts. 

people can say whatever they think about the wolf pack/Alpha/Dominance theory, but thousands of years of evolution doesnt go out the window when you buy a dog and put it in your house. im saying i am stuck on that theory, i would rather hang out with my dog and try to do things on her level. when a dog talks english i will lose the evolution theory. ha ha.


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## battlemonkey (Oct 14, 2007)

Personally, I agree with Boxmein. Dogs don't realize what they did wrong after the fact that it had already happened. Dogs live for the moment, they don't look back to what has already happened and have no remorse for what they have done in the past. Dogs will not come up to you and say, "hey, sorry for pooping on the rug when I was 2 months old, that was wrong", they just don't do that.

Spanking a dog also won't help, the dogs just start listening to their humans based on that they're scared they'll get hit again, plain and simple. I've never used physical discipline with my dogs, never have and never will. No matter if it's not hard enough to be called "abuse", it's just wrong and not an effective way of training your dog.

Dogs need balance in their lives, they need to have a pack leader, they need to be followers, not leaders themselves. If you let your dog walk all over you, good luck with training! My fiance used to do that, our dog used to do whatever she pleased when he was around because he wasn't acting like her leader, more like her follower. I've been showing him how to act around her and only letting her do what he says, and it's been so much better, and no hitting either.

No matter how many years of "evolution" you may think the dogs have gone through with all the breeding and stuff, dogs still come with a pack mentality and we can't change that. If you just look at a pack of dogs say at a dog park and just watch, you'll start realizing that one or two of them will appoint themselves as pack leader, the rest will be followers, no doubt about it.

Dogs need manners, and the only way they'll achieve them is if we show them how to behave, and the only way to do that is to be pack leaders, do this and your dog will show you and your family the respect you deserve.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

well im threw with the debate, this thread is for advice for people not arguing my personal thoughts. 

i know a few of you think i go home, beat the crap out of my dogs, and boss them around with my "macho" attitude, but its not anything like that. i have spanked, and it worked for me, and my dog is not scared of me at all. she doesnt cowar or hide in the corner we play and have a good time. but im not going to have my dogs run all over me like i have seen other peoples because of lack of training. 

done. next thread please.


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## lurcherloopy (Feb 11, 2007)

ar3151 said:


> , i looked at her and pointed to her mess and asked what happened her, she put her ears back and lowered her head. so that tells me she knew she tore that stuff up,
> 
> .





ar3151 said:


> i have spanked, and it worked for me, and my dog is not scared of me at all. she doesnt cowar .


yes she does - see above


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

lurcherloopy said:


> yes she does - see above



saying that as if a normal day, she doesnt cowar when i walk in the room. but if she did something wrong, and she knows it, then i got the point across. you cant tie multiple replies together that arent on the same situation.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

ar3151 said:


> so basically what you are saying is, you are totally right and i am totally wrong?


No need to continue. ar3151 understands perfectly.

I love this. The OP hasn't been back to check on responses since starting this bizarre thread, yet it's taken on a life of its own.

We may never find out what this was really about.


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## ar3151 (Oct 12, 2007)

RonE said:


> No need to continue. ar3151 understands perfectly.
> 
> I love this. The OP hasn't been back to check on responses since starting this bizarre thread, yet it's taken on a life of its own.
> 
> We may never find out what this was really about.


i like how you only quoted a certain portion, lets me know what kind of enviroment this place is. thank you. i guess i came here to talk about things and hopefully find a different view on things, didnt think i was going to have to get told "our way only". 

off track again, sorry guys. im out of this thread.


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## battlemonkey (Oct 14, 2007)

Wow, what a way to end a thread, by making people think you know more than others. People have different ways of training their pets, not saying that hitting is a good thing as I don't think physical discipline really is the way to go, I'm not that person and can't relate to the situation.

I know my dog has had her bad moments and I've disciplined her the way I know how, by being dominant and showing her the right thing to do instead of the wrong thing, without being physical. There's no need to argue, this board is made for people who need help and advice and all we're doing is arguing about our many different methods of training.

Let's just leave it at that and keep posting on these boards in a kind and civilized manner, like we should for the many new people (myself included) coming her and looking for help and willing to give advice.

Can we all call this thread closed??


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

ar3151 said:


> so basically what you are saying is, you are totally right and i am totally wrong? no one but me and my girl was there. its cool either way. im open to opinions.
> 
> its cool yall can all bash me and tell me im wrong, who all has this "Phd" anyways? i dont go around forcing my dog to think im the alpha, i guess yall really dont read all of my posts.


No, animal behaviorists have proved how a dog's mind thinks and what makes them tick. You mentioned learning, I suggested you do a little more on dog behavior and how they _really_ do think. 



ar3151 said:


> people can say whatever they think about the wolf pack/Alpha/Dominance theory, but thousands of years of evolution doesnt go out the window when you buy a dog and put it in your house. im saying i am stuck on that theory, i would rather hang out with my dog and try to do things on her level. when a dog talks english i will lose the evolution theory. ha ha


It has been thousands and thousands of years since dogs depended on being in a pack. Pack behavior and hierarchy has very little to do with our relationship with our dogs these days. Of course they have instincts, but dogs have been hard-wired to live with humans for a super dooper long time. We do need to be leaders, a good understanding of dog behavior never hurts, but instead of Alpha, I like to think of us as sort of psuedo parents, and that comes from controlling resources, showing the dog how to be a good citizen in our _human_ culture. 

As a side note - and I will have to find where I read this - But more recent archeological, DNA evidence, and other findings strongly indicates that dogs are not directly descended from pack animals. They are descended from semi-solitary village dogs and before that an ancestor of the wolf. These village dogs evolved down a separate path from the wolf. Interesting at best...


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Well it seemed silly and a waste of space to quote the whole thing when I was only commenting on a single statement.

You have found a "different view on things" and you don't like it. You don't have to like it or accept it. It's your dog.


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## GoingNuts (Sep 3, 2007)

As many of you know, I am a new dog owner and know little/nothing about dogs, but I am learning, so I thought I'd throw my two cents in here (this thread is hilarious, by the way)... Just some things I've learned/am still learning:
1. Punishing the potty indoors has done NOTHING but make him confused and think that the pottying itself is what's bad. (Since after three days, I am now an expert on beagle pups!!! Hahahaha). Actually, though, I took our pup to a trainer/behaviorist and learned that, at least in our little guy's case, ignoring messes is the best way to deal with them, don't even acknowledge the times he potties inside, but praise the YOU-KNOW-WHAT out of him when he goes OUTSIDE. Seems to be right-on so far (again, I'm an expert  )
2. The one time I reacted physically to him (if you read Terrible, Terrible Night, you'll know what I'm talking about) resulted in him cowering and peeing on the floor for a few days whenever he saw me (we have since made peace). I'm convinced that physical-anything will lead him to be an anxious, fearful dog who will whizz all over the floor when he's nervous. I could be wrong here, but I don't think I am...
3. I have learned that he is DOWNRIGHT ORNERY. If I lose my patience and give him the feeling it's a battle-of-the-wills, he won't cooperate at all. (He would rather win the battle and he usually outlasts me for various reasons) I have made a conscious effort to take a deep breath when he's irritating the **** out of me and change the tone of my voice from one of frustration to one of encouragement before I even address what he's doing.
4. I have been converted after the weekend to the squirtgun method. It doesn't hurt him, he actually seems to like the water once he's over the initial surprise of it, and it gets his attention....
You guys are the best...keep posting!


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## DobManiac (Aug 12, 2007)

I do use punishments to a degree I guess. I use collar corrections for obedience training, but I also use treats and whole lot of praise. I will also do a pat on the butt for a dog that doesn't sit quickly enough. This is not really a punishment, but more of a reminder. My dog will usually just look up me at like "ok I forgot."

I have whooped Dawn once. It was about a year or so ago. She can no longer wear a collar due to her back problems, but I have a good verbal relationship with her so it is usually not a problem. One day when I was leaving the use she jumped up on a sofa. This sofa is on the second floor of the house. The back of the sofa overlooks a balcony so that you can see down to the first floor. She was trying to look over the balcony at me while I left the house.

Due to Dawn's back problems she is very clumsy now. I was scared to death that she would fall over, or that Dusk would notice her on the sofa and jump up there with her. If he had too much energy he could push her over the edge. 

None the less, I ran up the stairs and to the sofa. I pulled her off and yelled and screamed with quit a few swats to her behind. The swats were more for the noise and reaction than any kind of pain. I have to say I put up a really big show of it. I wanted her to be scared. I wanted her to be scared to jump up on that sofa again. 

Maybe it was wrong. I don't know. But she has never gotten back on the sofa. And I am willing to risk a little fear from her if it could save her life.


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## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

I just have to post this quote I saw from another thread. It fits perfectly in here!



Nargle said:


> When I had my dog, I loved how gullable she was!! We could be sitting calmly, then all of the sudden, we could say "Squirrel? Squirrel Abby!!" and she'd go running to the window. Or if we said "Pizza guy!" She'd run to the front door, wagging her tail. Or if we said "Cooowww?" She's get all excited and start drooling. Also, it was a little mean, but sometimes my mom would look at her like she's very mad and say "What did you do Abby?" in a low, dissapointed voice, and even if Abby hadn't done anything wrong, she'd get all guilty looking and slink away and go give herself a time-out in her crate


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

DobManiac said:


> Maybe it was wrong.


Maybe? You pulled your dog off the sofa who has back problems, then swatted at her? _Right_ doesn't come to mind...


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