# Origin of Prong Collar?



## LynnI (Mar 27, 2010)

The boob tube was going today and CM was on. (this thread is not about CM btw) He was fitting a dog with a prong collar and he said that the collar was designed to simulate a dog being bitten on the neck by a wolf and to make it submit. 
This got me thinking about the true origin of the prong and whether CM's information was correct on any level or like so many of his opinions is off the wall or only half correct.
Does anyone have any research articles or other information as to the origins of the prong? Who and when was it developed? And did they believe that it simulated a bite and was therefore effective because of that?

Btw, I did do a online search first but couldn't find out anything other than how to use it, fit etc.

Cheers


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## Tavi (May 21, 2010)

Hmm honestly I have no idea of the history of the prong collar...LoL It's possible CM might be right or he might just be making stuff up for a TV bite, can't really blame him on that, people do it all the time. Al Gore invented the internets after all. Hehehe I know that originally some of the first collars were what I know of as wolf collars, where the collar is thick, covers a lot of the neck and had outward facing spikes on it to protect dogs from attack from other dogs,wolfs, bad things in particular while they were being worked. But honestly I've never really see any history on how the collars came to be themselves!


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

This has always been my favored explanation of the prong collar but it does not mention his philosophy of it or the origin. 

Prong collars (sometimes incorrectly termed pinch collars) are a series of chain links with blunted open ends turned towards the dog's neck. The design of the prong collar is such that it has a limited circumference unlike slip collars which do not have a limit on how far they can constrict on a dog's neck. The collar is designed to prevent the dog from pulling by applying high pressure at each point against the dog's neck. It is a form of positive punishment. The prong collar should not pinch the skin.

Prong collars must never be turned inside out (with the prongs facing away from the dog's skin), as this may cause injury against the body and head. [2] Plastic tips are occasionally placed on the ends of the prongs to protect against tufts forming in the fur or, in the case of low quality manufactured collars with rough chisel cut ends, puncturing the skin. Like the slip collar, the prong collar is placed high on the dog's neck, just behind the ears, at the weakest point.[3]

Some dogs can free themselves from prong collars with large wire looped sides by shaking their head so that the links pop out, so some trainers have come to use a second collar (usually an oversize slip collar) in addition to the prong collar so when this happens the dog does not run loose.


I will say they were IMO altered from old style training collars where blunted nails are imbeded between layers of leather that poke into the dog more than pinch and are I feel torture to the newer prong that pinches rather than pokes and is safe to use. I doubt it is was because of wolves in any way shape or form and evolved from these leather nailed collars personally.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Yvonne said:


> This has always been my favored explanation of the prong collar but it does not mention his philosophy of it or the origin.
> 
> Prong collars (sometimes incorrectly termed pinch collars) are a series of chain links with blunted open ends turned towards the dog's neck. The design of the prong collar is such that it has a limited circumference unlike slip collars which do not have a limit on how far they can constrict on a dog's neck. The collar is designed to prevent the dog from pulling by applying high pressure at each point against the dog's neck. It is a form of positive punishment. The prong collar should not pinch the skin.
> 
> ...


There is a J.A.S.A leather collar used for bird dog work that has extremely sharp nail/tack types that you must be careful handling as it will bite you. It was designed by the Marquis De Sade


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yvonne said:


> Prong collars (sometimes incorrectly termed pinch collars). . .
> 
> 
> . . .the newer prong that pinches rather than pokes


So if they pinch, why would it be incorrect to call them pinch collars? LOL

CM seems to make up a lot of stuff. Probably he believes what he's saying, but he's never really looked into the facts of the matter.


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## Lindbert (Dec 12, 2010)

Dentists. Only a dentist would design a device that looks so menacing yet isn't really all that bad. Look at the syringes they use. 

In all seriousness, I've heard the wolf explanation other places even before Cesar said it on tv. It might just be one of those myths like the idea that a dog shouldn't eat raw meat because it will acquire a taste for blood.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Being that Prong collars have been captured in photo before the turn of the century and Pavlov didn't use the term "reinforcement" until the 1920's, I'm going to say CM is likely correct on the logic behind the tool - though in application it likely doesn't apply at all. It works because it's uncomfortable/painful to the dog. I doubt the dog believes he's being bitten. MOO.


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

Herm Sprenger mentions the idea of a mother dog's teeth on the pup as the idea behind the prong collar's effectiveness. I think it is more of an attempt to explain why it's so effective as opposed to how they came up with the design.

I look at it in purely OC terms. The prong collar can be used for positive punishment when the handler or training helper pops the leash or pull tab. It can also be used as a type of negative reinforcement for leash training. For example, if the dog pulls, the collar puts pressure on the neck. If the dog stops pulling, the pressure comes off (negative reinforcement). The main problem is if the training is done ineffectively, it only serves to build the dog's resistance to the pressure and he gets a really tough neck!

Lately I've been experimenting with a Delmar Smith "Wonder Lead." Gun dog trainers use a lot of negative reinforcement training, mostly with an e-collar but also with foundational techniques like the whoa post and the wonder lead. The idea is always pressure-on, pressure off. There's no pop! like a punishment, just pressure and relief. The e-collar is used the same way, low-level continuous and relief (negative reinforcement). The Wonder Lead is a stiff rope slip lead that slides very easily. Pressure goes on and off very easily and the lead is fit right behind the ears or even in front of the ears. It works effectively but it does put pressure on the trachea. My dog has choked after just a second of pressure (pressure is never maintained with this lead, it's always momentary). I'm leaning toward the opinion that the prong collar is better but it has to fit the dog properly. Most people I see with them, the prong collars are much too big and too loose and too low on the neck.

I would suggest using a prong collar with a harness. Hold the dog with the harness and use the prong to "steer" when you need to. If you're holding the dog on the prong collar, he's going to get a tough-ass neck.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Never had a dog get immune to a prong or a tough neck. Perhaps it is because I use the collar to train the dog then go to a lesser collar when done training. I think if someone used the prong as a crutch and did not train with it to correct the issue a dog may develop some resistance to it but I have yet to ever see a properly sized and placed prong not control a dog.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

LynnI said:


> The boob tube was going today and CM was on. (this thread is not about CM btw) He was fitting a dog with a prong collar and he said that the collar was designed to simulate a dog being bitten on the neck by a wolf and to make it submit.
> This got me thinking about the true origin of the prong and whether CM's information was correct on any level or like so many of his opinions is off the wall or only half correct.
> Does anyone have any research articles or other information as to the origins of the prong? Who and when was it developed? And did they believe that it simulated a bite and was therefore effective because of that?
> 
> ...


Then again, some dogs being bitten around the throat don NOT submit, but fight harder. It's generally recommended that these collars not be used in cases of aggression as they can provoke a stronger response (and a lunging dog can pop them open). Of course, I generally recommend that they not be used at all. CM seems to see pretty much everything in terms of dominance and submission. Perhaps that's why Illusion left him.


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

The cheaper brands that mimic the original pop open more so than a good quality one <example of bad the cheap petsmart knockoffs>. You are supp0osed to use a second collar for safty purpose and it works better to use two leashes using the prong for correction pops rather than for walking and correction.

People that do not get results from a prong are doing it wrong, wrong size, or a cheap collar. These collars are much safer and correct problems more than chokers, fursavers, haltis, and several others.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

I must be using all collars wrong because my dog pulls no matter what collar I'm using (except e collar I don't use for walking) I'm constantly correcting and she's oblivious. I would pay a trainer double the money if they could show me how to walk this dog and not have her pull and I mean loose leash walking. Wow, were have I been! I never heard about his wife filing for divorce. Maybe she didn't exercise enough, lol


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

I dont know anyone to suggest in your area. Hop a plane to the states with your dog. We'll fix you right up lol


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

Wouldn't that be great!! She's dog reactive too, what a bonus! We see a trainer on Saturday for a few private sessions first, maybe i should tell her I'll double the money if she can truly help me and my dog


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## Yvonne (Aug 6, 2010)

Good luck with the trainer!


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dakotajo said:


> I must be using all collars wrong because my dog pulls no matter what collar I'm using (except e collar I don't use for walking) I'm constantly correcting and she's oblivious. I would pay a trainer double the money if they could show me how to walk this dog and not have her pull and I mean loose leash walking. Wow, were have I been! I never heard about his wife filing for divorce. Maybe she didn't exercise enough, lol


So, while your dog is pulling, what are you doing? Are you pulling back? Going where she takes you? Is she paying attention to you? I've found that A) dogs who pull frequently have handlers who pull B) if you go with your dog when she pulls, why would she not pull? and C) Pulling is frequently just a symptom of lack of attention/connection


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

Hmm... I've tried treats and making her go to my side, I've tried stopping and not moving until she comes back over to me (she's strong so basically knows she can pull me off my feet) but she does come back to my side usually but she doesn't understand that I don't want the pulling period so we do this over and over. I swear she has ADD. she's better off leash than on, with no big distractions of course.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dakotajo said:


> Hmm... I've tried treats and making her go to my side, I've tried stopping and not moving until she comes back over to me (she's strong so basically knows she can pull me off my feet) but she does come back to my side usually but she doesn't understand that I don't want the pulling period so we do this over and over. I swear she has ADD. she's better off leash than on, with no big distractions of course.


Are you keeping the leash loose when she is not pulling? I've never found the "be a tree" approach to be all that useful with larger dogs, though backing up or changing directions are more instructive. Two points of contact (and using the leash two-handed - like english reins) can be very useful as you can change the direction of the pressure back and forth - for instance you could have one end attached to a front ring harness and another to her collar. Dogs can only pull in one direction. Also, for dogs who don't really understand about what to do when the leash is tight (besides lean into it) "silky leash" can be a very useful exercise. Berner, right? I've found that the habitually pulling Berners I've gotten into class (and they DO like to pull, they are draft dogs, after all) tend to do much better when their people give them lots of input and tell them what to do next instead of trying to control with the leash


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## Bart (Jul 15, 2010)

Yvonne said:


> Never had a dog get immune to a prong or a tough neck. Perhaps it is because I use the collar to train the dog then go to a lesser collar when done training. I think if someone used the prong as a crutch and did not train with it to correct the issue a dog may develop some resistance to it but I have yet to ever see a properly sized and placed prong not control a dog.


They don't get immune to prong corrections (pops). They do get immune to prong pressure. It happens the way you describe... a handler puts the prong on to get control but they don't do any more training. You're exactly right to use it for training and get the task done. If the dog comes to understand that the collar's pressure does not mean anything, because there's no intelligible training to go along with it, they have no choice but to assume that pressure on their neck is just how life sucks and they might as well get used to it because they don't seem to be able to do anything about it. On the other hand, if it's real clear to them how to turn the pressure off, avoid the pressure, and avoid corrections, and what they should in fact do instead, then they get done with the training and go on to other stuff.

There are very hard competition dogs that use them all their life for corrections. It's not because they're not trained (they have world titles), but because their temperament is hard and a lesser correction means nothing to them. I don't have one of those dogs and I've never handled one. That type of temperament isn't necessary for competitive success either, but it wouldn't be fair to say that a trainer who uses a prong should only do so until the dog is trained and then go off it. It depends on the dog's temperament.

Also, someone mentioned aggression. Prongs are used specifically to get aggression from dogs. It is correct that some dogs (typically hard ones that might have handler aggression) will respond to prong corrections with aggression and if that's what the handler's looking for, it can work well with those dogs. With a certain type of dog, a few hard, unfair corrections will really fire them up. If you're trying to train the dog for the right picture in the Bark and Hold for example, someone might use it that way, but most dogs would shut down with that method. Some dogs will lose control. I've never used it, and don't think I would want to. I also don't want a hard, handler aggressive dog to begin with but some dogs are like that before they've ever been trained and they can be good dogs for the right job. You can't send a soft-ass dog to break up a prison riot.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

Oh I forgot I have switched directions and stopped then went again ect.... she likes this, it's fun and a game to her. If I acted like I was the funniest, craziest thing on earth through the whole entire walk she probably would stay by my side. she's all about fun but has to have me involved or watching her. Not really toy motivated I guess maybe I'm just too boring for this dog,lol


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

some of CM's philosphies are pretty good so i dont think hes just out there winging it as so many trainers imply. i will agree that for hard nosed, drivy or stubborn dogs, his methods work very well. they worked very well on many of my dogs including Izze, but they wont work on Josie because she is not the right temperment for those types of methods, so im using... get ready for it... duh duh duuuuuh... positive remforcement LOL


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

dogdragoness said:


> some of CM's philosphies are pretty good so i dont think hes just out there winging it as so many trainers imply. i will agree that for hard nosed, drivy or stubborn dogs, his methods work very well. they worked very well on many of my dogs including Izze, but they wont work on Josie because she is not the right temperment for those types of methods, so im using... get ready for it... duh duh duuuuuh... positive remforcement LOL


Good for you, looking for what works for your dog. I haven't found the dog yet that it hasn't worked better on (including hard nosed, drivey or "stubborn" dogs. In fact those are the last dogs with whom I want to find myself in a position to have to have a battle of wills. I have had more than a few students who came to me after they started having trouble with their dogs when they started poking, choking and tsssting (watching CM). I don't think CM knows very much theory (though he does offer not to sue knowledgeable dog trainers for being critical of him if they will share what they know - I guess that could be considered a willingness to learn.) and I think his old fashioned understanding of relationship is full of beans. I do think he has extremely good timing and lightning fast reflexes. Still, his methods get him bitten more than any trainer I know (and I know a lot of people who work with dogs at least as bad as the ones on his show). If he is fast and has great natural timing and STILL gets bitten that much. What's going to happen to the average owner who tries that stuff? And, yes, I know there is a disclaimer, but we all know people are going to try it on their dogs.


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