# Lose of pack leadership



## AgedHolligan (Mar 13, 2012)

I have a 5 month old dobi rotti mix. Ive been doing pack leader training with her she walks on the leash very well responds to my commands very well. 

And i may just not understand how the dog pack leader works this is my first dog. But i assumed when it came to protection the dog was ment to rely on me for that. 

Last night a fox or a racoon got into my yard and she went nuts. We were on my deck which i have gated from the rest of the yard. When i brought her in she stayed healed off leash and would leave my side as if gaurding me. 

Have i failed as a pack leader am i doing the training wrong or is this natural?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

What's typically synonymous with "pack theory" is outdated and misplaced. Consider the behavior and ask yourself this question...Have I trained my dog for this kind of distraction? If the answer is no, then you haven't trained your dog. If the answer is yes, then you haven't trained your dog...enough. 

This kind of behavior is natural for most dogs instinctual. Most people prefer to manage their dogs, instead of doing the training because it can be a lot of work, and not always predictable.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Don't worry about being your dog's "pack leader." He knows you're not a wolf and all that pack theory stuff came from misunderstanding dog social relationships in the first place. As Curb said, it's a training issue (and a common one at that), not a leadership issue.


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## AgedHolligan (Mar 13, 2012)

You are right i have not trained her for these distractions. An to be honest i dont know how. She was still fully responsive to all my commands. I didnt encourage nor discourage this behavior behavior because I would like my dog to alert me of any "threat" weather its someone the yard or an animal i live close to alot of woods an would prefer my yard to be vermin free lol. 

But i dont want to lose control over my dog. I dont want the dog to be one of those dogs where people dont want to come to my house because she is always being a pain in the butt. An the pack leader training is how im training her. An so far it has proven to be very very affective. Shes still very young an already walks on a leash great knows to heel sit lay down go to her crate go to her bed and is already house trained.

What should i do tho if anything. She is a very friendly dog and i am socializing her like crazy. Shes a cute pup so in terms of people I usually end up getting stopped like 10 times just walking her in the park an as for dogs i take her to anyones house i know that has dogs and she plays with them also not sure if any of this has anything to do with this situation but as i said this is my first dog. I just want to make sure im doing it right.


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## Finkie_Mom (Mar 2, 2010)

It could have been a fear reaction. That would explain why she wouldn't leave your side when you came in the house - she was seeking you out for comfort after she was scared/startled.


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## mkj13 (Apr 30, 2012)

well i have to say , its part of a training issue, yes, but you should deffinitly be the leader of your "pack". when i got my first dog i made the huge mistake of 
letting her be the boss and leader and i didnt even realize i was doing it! but over the last couple of years i have been extensivly researching doggy pshychology and body language, and give or take , its not what your dog acts like in your house that really counts,but in your dogs mind, your house is a kennel,yes, a nice kennel , but its still not the real world, that would be the outside. this is part of why its really importent to be able to take your dog on a walk everyday, or at least 5 days a week.
how your dog acts on a walk and whose in charege on the walk is going to affect about 95% of your dogs behaviour in the other asspects of its life.
when you walk your dog you should be walking tall and confident, your dog should not be walking ahead of you, but rather beside or slightly behind you.
in the wild the alpha dog would walk at the front so if you want to be leader you make the desions and you decide where to go, therefore you should walk first right?
what i really recommend is a high collar,these work so much better then the normal collars that just go around the base of your dogs necck,
they go about at your dogs chin level and make it easier to cotroll your dogs head. and where the nose of the dog goes , the body usually follows.
if your dog is walking beside you, great! but that still doesnt mean your in charge. your dog should get a sharp tug on the leash(which is why i recommend the high collars, they take much less force) whenever they look at another passing dog or person, really its if they just give them a casual glance, but if they are looking, the other person or dog is distracting them, and their not paying attentionn to you and your expecting them to do.


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## mkj13 (Apr 30, 2012)

meant its NOT if they just give them a casual glance


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## AgedHolligan (Mar 13, 2012)

Yes i do pack walks every day With her i have been for id say a bit over a month now i have the collar.I usually do a minimum of 45 minute walks a day and maybe 3 days a week i take her for long walks maybe 2 hours or so right now the temp is perfect so i dont need to worry about her over heating so im trying to take advantage of that. She walks beside me sometimes her head is in front of my knee but i wont let her stray any further ahead then that. And she looks up at me from time to time if i start to change direction. She never pulls. Distractions while walking is what i am currently working on. I already had to get between her and another dog that tryed to attack her which i read shows that dog your leading also how true that is i dont know. 

Does it sound like im pack walking her wrong ? And thank you guys for all your advice Everytime i have posted something on these forums i have gotten good advice.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I think you both need to read this. Pack theory has been disproven and is no longer a useful way of understanding or training dogs. I recommend reading up on operant conditioning instead.

In case you don't feel like clicking on the link: 


Wikipedia "Pack (Canine)" said:


> Gray wolves (Canis lupus) usually live in packs which consist of the adult parents and their offspring of perhaps the last 2 or 3 years.





L. David Mech said:


> "Calling a wolf an alpha is usually no more appropriate than referring to a human parent or a doe deer as an alpha. Any parent is dominant to its young offspring, so "alpha" adds no information. Why not refer to an alpha female as the female parent, the breeding female, the matriarch, or simply the mother? Such a designation emphasizes not the animal's dominant status, which is trivial information, but its role as pack progenitor, which is critical information. The one use we may still want to reserve for "alpha" is in the relatively few large wolf packs comprised of multiple litters. ... In such cases the older breeders are probably dominant to the younger breeders and perhaps can more appropriately be called the alphas. ... The point here is not so much the terminology but what the terminology falsely implies: a rigid, force-based dominance hierarchy."[9]


And please don't start using the methods mkj is preaching. Yanking away at your dog's leash and dragging him around by his head will not help desensitize him to distractions and will instead damage your relationship and cause more problems. You are lucky to have a dog that doesn't pull. It makes absolutely no difference whether the dog walks slightly ahead or behind you. Seriously none. If your dog is reactive towards other dogs on leash you need to desensitize him by treating him when you see another dog (before he reacts) and slowly build up his tolerance by allowing him closer to the thing that's causing the reaction over time. If he reacts, you know you went over his threshold, so you just have to start from farther away again.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

sometimes i wish training information was NOT available on the internet  drop the pack leader hooey. its not going to help you. dont jerk your dog around when it looks at something. and you should NOT be giving leash corrections with a "high collar" on... ive never heard it called that by the way, its always a head collar. thats not what they are designed for.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am sure they are talking about the "Illusian"collar designed by the CM camp to ride up high on the neck right behind the jaw line...


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I am sure they are talking about the "Illusian"collar designed by the CM camp to ride up high on the neck right behind the jaw line...


Yes, that's what they're talking about. It hits right on the most sensitive part of the dog's neck.

Look, you know what's way more relaxing, fun and easier than spending every waking moment of the day at war with your dog? Becoming a team, a team of you and your dog. You both win, every day, it's great. No more worrying if your dog's nose is 1" past your knee, no more punishing your dog for looking at something, no more treating every second like a battle that must be won. We don't live that way, we don't treat our dogs like that, yet we have well behaved, well trained dogs.

Something to think about.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

huh just googled it. ive never seen one of those.... looks..... eh... strange


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Amaryllis said:


> Look, you know what's way more relaxing, fun and easier than spending every waking moment of the day at war with your dog? Becoming a team, a team of you and your dog. You both win, every day, it's great. No more worrying if your dog's nose is 1" past your knee, no more punishing your dog for looking at something, no more treating every second like a battle that must be won. We don't live that way, we don't treat our dogs like that, yet we have well behaved, well trained dogs.


this! 

my dane lexi has completed so may classes. basic obedience, advanced obedience (a couple times, for fun), tricks, etc. and is a canine good citizen. ive never had to give her any physical corrections or anything. we have so much fun training and i keep taking classes (even the same classes over and over) just because SHE and i BOTH have a blast when we work on training. doesnt this sound better than constantly struggling and having to be first in everything? i walk her (125lbs) with the leash dangling and my arms full of bags of dog food, guinea pig food, toys, etc. walking though the petstore with other animals and smells all over the place. i dont worry if shes ahead or behind me. if she has her nose down and starts sniffing for something interesting, so be it. if i need her attention back at me i just say softly "lexi, pay attention" and its right back. 
i manage a dog daycare and im a trainer. i control groups of 30+ dogs every day, and if i walked around thinking i had to be the alpha, i would have a group of chaos. one thing to remember when training dogs and its my #1 rule when i hire someone "aggression begets aggression". if you want to walk around thinking youre the boss and correcting every little thing they do, be my guest, but they will only push back. pick and choose your battles wisely.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

AgedHolligan said:


> But i dont want to lose control over my dog. I dont want the dog to be one of those dogs where people dont want to come to my house because she is always being a pain in the butt. An the pack leader training is how im training her. An so far it has proven to be very very affective. Shes still very young an already walks on a leash great knows to heel sit lay down go to her crate go to her bed and is already house trained.


"Pack leader" training is one of those things with just enough truth to it to be sometimes effective. But most of it is sillly superstition. If you are consistent in training and clear in your rules and boundaries, you're not going to "Lose control". But it's about training, not "pack status" and there are more effective and instructive ways to get to the point very quickly.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

He kept the collar and lost the wife he named it for. Guess she got tired of getting alphaed



GreatDaneMom said:


> huh just googled it. ive never seen one of those.... looks..... eh... strange


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## AgedHolligan (Mar 13, 2012)

My puppy pulled when i first got it now she doesnt . I got her house broken this way an dont really have any problems with the dog to be honest. More of a concern. As i said this is my first dog and i want to do it right. And its never a battle with her actually the opposite she so responsive for the most part it surprises me. And i love training my dog and to be honest im not exactly stick to the true pack lead mentality. Only time she gets her chain popped is when she is refusing to move and that is after a series of commands ignored an this is always distraction related. She follows the rules an im happy with that when she breaks or bends them she gets corrected, I do not hit or scream at my dog. An to be honest i like the idea of us being a team she is with me 24/7. The reason i posted this is because i dont know any better so i refer to you guys when im confused or lost with something my dog is doing. And thank you again for the help. 

So i should focus less on pack leader and more on communication and training and conditioning i assume right ?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

I guess I'm confused as to what "pack leader/alpha dog training" is other than a lot of bullying and alpha rolling and weird superstitions/rituals (like walking through doors first or eating first), because that's all I've ever seen called that. But yes, you should concentrate on training and communication and conditioning.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Since you're a new dog owner, you may want to download both of these free books and look through them. They will help you with training and communication. The world famous Vet, Dr. Ian Dunbar, who wrote them has a Ph.D. and has been leading much of the research for ~40 years. Cesar Millan included Dunbar in his most recent book. 

http://www.dogstardaily.com/free-downloads


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## Luna'sOwner (Apr 11, 2012)

Indeed, train her for these situations... and distractions. I guess conditioning a dog is very important to the every day reaction to things. I walk with Luna in busy places but also walk past cats and other animals that I see and wait until she is settled down before I continue. I also tend to approach whatever she is making a fuss about with her (she is usually off leash, unless I am around a busy street with cars) and wait until she stops obsessing and relaxes. Many people are against the whole pack leader thing - I usually only apply what seems best for me and my dog to create an understanding, because as far as dogs go I want to implement the most natural dog behaviors possible - which indeed, do not mean that you need to target the most sensitive part of your dog's neck or strangle them. Stay open minded and compromise a manner in which both you and the dog are comfortable and most natural


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

AgedHolligan said:


> My puppy pulled when i first got it now she doesnt . I got her house broken this way an dont really have any problems with the dog to be honest. More of a concern. As i said thisSo i should focus less on pack leader and more on communication and training and conditioning i assume right ?


Bingo! The "pack leadership" programs contain an elememt of old school training technique, that while it may not be the best, DOES work to an extent. But dogs are smart enough to know that we aren't dogs (or wolves). When we try to behave the way the we think wolves or dogs behave, we miss an awful lot of the subtlety and timing, and our dogs may see us as clumsy and clueless as best, dangerous and bullying at worst. So much better to approach a dog as an intelligent human communicating in a mutually understandable language with an intelligent canine.
Think how much more time you'll have to enjoy your dog if you aren't busy trying to remember all the ways you can be "dominant" over her. There's a lot of posturing and worrying about your dog trying to take over if you get lax. The fact is, this sets you and your dog up for a confrontation of your (or the Wheesper's) own construct. Then you end up with the kind of power struggle you fear, because it is a self-fullfilling prophesy. Instead of worrying about this silly stuff that only happens because people make it happen, engage your dog in training via primarily positive reinforcement based methods and end up with a dog who can't wait to please you (and herself).


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## AgedHolligan (Mar 13, 2012)

> Indeed, train her for these situations... and distractions. I guess conditioning a dog is very important to the every day reaction to things. I walk with Luna in busy places but also walk past cats and other animals that I see and wait until she is settled down before I continue. I also tend to approach whatever she is making a fuss about with her (she is usually off leash, unless I am around a busy street with cars) and wait until she stops obsessing and relaxes. Many people are against the whole pack leader thing - I usually only apply what seems best for me and my dog to create an understanding, because as far as dogs go I want to implement the most natural dog behaviors possible - which indeed, do not mean that you need to target the most sensitive part of your dog's neck or strangle them. Stay open minded and compromise a manner in which both you and the dog are comfortable and most natural


I have sorta taken the same approach i do the pack leader training but sometimes i stray from it which is why i was worried. So of the stuff ive read about pack leader training i dont really apply because i feel the end result isnt what i want. I want a dog not a soldier. lol


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

AgedHolligan said:


> I have sorta taken the same approach i do the pack leader training but sometimes i stray from it which is why i was worried. So of the stuff ive read about pack leader training i dont really apply because i feel the end result isnt what i want. I want a dog not a soldier. lol


Yay! Rottis are great dogs, you'll have a wonderful time with her.

Don't feel bad about a dog freaking out over a wild animal. Most dogs do. It's a normal doggy thing to do and it's not a reflection on you or your relationship at all. The trick is to train, train and train some more. Then do some more training. Eventually, obeying your commands becomes second nature, so when you need her to, she does it. (And if she doesn't, train some more.)

Stick around, read some stickies and buy that dog a pretty flat buckle collar. Something leather, maybe, classy. Rottis are pretty, you should play that up.


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## Luna'sOwner (Apr 11, 2012)

AgedHolligan said:


> I have sorta taken the same approach i do the pack leader training but sometimes i stray from it which is why i was worried. So of the stuff ive read about pack leader training i dont really apply because i feel the end result isnt what i want. I want a dog not a soldier. lol


never said I wanted a soldier... but thanks for the assumption.


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## AgedHolligan (Mar 13, 2012)

Luna'sOwner said:


> never said I wanted a soldier... but thanks for the assumption.


Luna i wasnt making an assumption about you. Im actually taking the same approach as you i think


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## AgedHolligan (Mar 13, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> Yay! Rottis are great dogs, you'll have a wonderful time with her.
> 
> Don't feel bad about a dog freaking out over a wild animal. Most dogs do. It's a normal doggy thing to do and it's not a reflection on you or your relationship at all. The trick is to train, train and train some more. Then do some more training. Eventually, obeying your commands becomes second nature, so when you need her to, she does it. (And if she doesn't, train some more.)
> 
> Stick around, read some stickies and buy that dog a pretty flat buckle collar. Something leather, maybe, classy. Rottis are pretty, you should play that up.


Yea i have a couple collars for her one with the spikes and all that. I play it up with her. Shes a park favorite noone can resist her. Shes very friendly and good with people.


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## momof3 (Nov 24, 2007)

Read the NILF sticky it is a good base to get started from.Sounds like she wants to please you and I think like others suggested read some of the stickies and you will find that you don't have to dominate her you just need to do some simple training to get all the results you want.
I always like the ones that I meet that say Oh I treat my dog like its in a pack of wolves and the get really freaked out when I say OH you let the dog lick you in the mouth and you barf up some food when they are small pups for them to eat. And when you come home from work you pull your pants down and let them smell your butt? Thats a really cool training method how's that working for you???? Because those are things done in the pack.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

That's what I do when I get home from work... is there something wrong with that method ?


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## AgedHolligan (Mar 13, 2012)

momof3 said:


> OH you let the dog lick you in the mouth and you barf up some food when they are small pups for them to eat. And when you come home from work you pull your pants down and let them smell your butt? .



Lol 

I will read the stickys thanks guys for the help. In the past few days ive trying things a bit different and im still seeing results.


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## momof3 (Nov 24, 2007)

Sometimes the best way to train your dog is take a little info from this type of training and a little from that until you get the perfect blend for your dog. You don't have to pick one type of training and say Im using X method no others will do because that method may not be the best or work the best for your dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

hanksimon said:


> That's what I do when I get home from work... is there something wrong with that method ?


Yes indeed, that was the downfall of a few D-D Trainers. A butt is not ever to be bared to a possibly hungry Dino Dog, I'm Just Sayin'....


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I've had my butt chewed out by more than Dino dogs.... 

>>> take a little info from this type of training and a little from that 
I tried that sometime ago... the dog didn't listen when I clicked, so I threw it at him (jk); guess that's not really clicker training 
(I'm gonna get my butt chewed again for that comment  )

I've found that Ian Dunbar tends to take a middle of the road approach sometimes, taking a little from the Very positive approach house, and modifying it with a gentle repetitive reprimand from the Puishment side of the training house.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

hanksimon said:


> the dog didn't listen when I clicked, so I threw it at him


yeah i met a trainer once that said if your dog chews your shoes, to take the shoe and put it in the dogs mouth and tie it shut on the shoe and leave him that way for a few hours..... well... lexi kept getting into the garbage so i locked her in the garbage can... didnt work... she just had a nice meal while she was in there.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I learned the wisdom of soft technques b/c of that... my little furry, needle-toothed vampire didn't respond well to my harsh methods to cure nipping - holding him under water (Labs love water); drop kicking him against a wall (Labs are tough - he thought I was playing, and came back for another taste of [my] blood)... I learned that positive approaches work better than harsh (rolling on your back and yelping like an injured puppy). Note, yelping is important, otherwise the pup may try to drown or suffocate you with his tongue.
 :-0


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

GreatDaneMom said:


> yeah i met a trainer once that said if your dog chews your shoes, to take the shoe and put it in the dogs mouth and tie it shut on the shoe and leave him that way for a few hours..... well... lexi kept getting into the garbage so i locked her in the garbage can... didnt work... she just had a nice meal while she was in there.


That's as bad as the chicken killing cure, the dog kills the chicken and then the dead chicken is tied around his neck and I don't have a clue how that is done. I guess the dog is suppose to get embarrassed when his/her doggy friends see-em or something. I have heard that as the chicken ripens the dogs do indeed become more enamored with the chicken.

GDM, I got to ask, just how big is your garbage can.


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## Luna'sOwner (Apr 11, 2012)

AgedHolligan said:


> Luna i wasnt making an assumption about you. Im actually taking the same approach as you i think


Indeed. I am not against Cesar's methods, however, I've been training dogs before I knew about him and our basic training methods are just based on trying to communicate things as clearly enough for our dogs to understand. Our dogs are usually off leash and we've never used the "Illusion" colar, however, as I personally cannot see how using that leash is 'natural' to a dog. I do use leashes purely based on safety around busy traffic but have one of those clip on colars with extra cushing filling on the neck. I only use slight pressure on the leash when other forms of redirecting are not affective, but that doesn't happen much. We just have learned that by watching how a mother raises her pups we have created better understanding of how dogs function amongst each other, which gave us some tools to understand different behavior and how to handle it in our own way. When you go to Russia and speak Mexican people will not understand you, but once you learn Russian culture and the language it will be better for you and them to understand - even though you may speak with an accent  op2:


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## Luna'sOwner (Apr 11, 2012)

hanksimon said:


> I learned the wisdom of soft technques b/c of that... my little furry, needle-toothed vampire didn't respond well to my harsh methods to cure nipping - holding him under water (Labs love water); drop kicking him against a wall (Labs are tough - he thought I was playing, and came back for another taste of [my] blood)... I learned that positive approaches work better than harsh (rolling on your back and yelping like an injured puppy). Note, yelping is important, otherwise the pup may try to drown or suffocate you with his tongue.
> :-0



Holding him under water? Drop kicking against the wall? D: ha ha, is that a joke?


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## Cheetah (May 25, 2006)

The video shared on the first page is a really good method. Kikopup is amazing!! =D Eevee used to be very leash reactive, and I tried everything in the book as far as training tools and "pack leadership" and all that crap. The only thing that worked in the end was the method used in that video. Positive training is an awesome thing. =)


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

They were 100% joking!!! 



Luna'sOwner said:


> Holding him under water? Drop kicking against the wall? D: ha ha, is that a joke?


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

wvasko said:


> That's as bad as the chicken killing cure, the dog kills the chicken and then the dead chicken is tied around his neck and I don't have a clue how that is done. I guess the dog is suppose to get embarrassed when his/her doggy friends see-em or something. I have heard that as the chicken ripens the dogs do indeed become more enamored with the chicken.
> 
> GDM, I got to ask, just how big is your garbage can.


Look up Rime of the Ancient Mariner. 

Anyway, I sprayed this stuff on my garden to keep out the rabbits. It contains dried blood, putrescence egg solids and garlic oil. I had to pick Kabota up and carry him away from licking this disgusting stuff off the dirt. I'm sure he'd love a week dead chicken.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

wvasko said:


> That's as bad as the chicken killing cure, the dog kills the chicken and then the dead chicken is tied around his neck and I don't have a clue how that is done. I guess the dog is suppose to get embarrassed when his/her doggy friends see-em or something. I have heard that as the chicken ripens the dogs do indeed become more enamored with the chicken.
> 
> GDM, I got to ask, just how big is your garbage can.


If Biscuit were to choose a piece of jewelry for herself, I'm pretty sure it would ideally involve a dead chicken.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

hamandeggs said:


> If Biscuit were to choose a piece of jewelry for herself, I'm pretty sure it would ideally involve a dead chicken.


This made me lol. xD


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

its one of the big garbage totes wvasko. i got her out just as the garbage men were coming.


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## hamandeggs (Aug 11, 2011)

GreatDaneMom said:


> its one of the big garbage totes wvasko. i got her out just as the garbage men were coming.


This made me LOL. Excellent mental image.


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