# Opinion on chokers and pinchers



## vinht (Jan 15, 2009)

hi i have a 8 month old husky lab and he has a regular collar. he pulls when i walk him. not hard but alwas tense. i also think about getting a choker because he will be a big dog . i always thought they were cruel but i see them a lot so i was intrested in other peoples opinion should i get a choker?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

In this case, no. I'm not completely against using training collars, but a choker does very little to reduce pulling if you don't train the dog to walk properly. Many dogs will just keep pulling until they turn blue. Here's a link about teaching loose-leash walking: http://www.dogforums.com/3-dog-training-forum/4547-loose-leash-walking-using.html


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

If you have weak hands/wrists or what have you, I'd use a pinch collar or gentle leader before a choke.


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## Lonewolfblue (Oct 28, 2007)

I would definitely not use a choker as well. If your dog doesn't have any aggression issues, and is just a puller, you could use a Prong collar. But don't use it for correcting the dog, but let the dog correct itself. I used one on my Betty in Rally training, and working with her heeling. I didn't do any leash corrections with it, but let Betty correct herself when she would start to pull a little, would feel uncomfortable and she would slow back down. Since then, we have switched over to a regular collar, now that her heeling was near perfect. So we don't need to use it anymore.

But to give a little other insight as well, I have tried using the Prong for behavior issues. Within 3 days of it with Betty's issues (lunging at other dogs and some people) it only increased her issues. And not just a little either. So if the dog has any issues, don't use the prong unless you have someone that knows exactly how to use this tool, and be prepared to stop if it makes things worse. The Prong is a powerful tool, and in the wrong hands, can negatively affect the dog.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pro-Prong, Anti Choke and I'm out of here before the fistfighting starts


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Used _properly_, choke collars are good for most dogs. Used _properly_, pinch collars work better and are safer but they are cumbersome and inconvenient to use.


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## Corteo (Jan 7, 2009)

I would say that I am Pro-training collar (won't call it "choke", because your not supposed to...) Pro-pinch. However, before you all get on me, each collar needs be shown by a professional to the owner, and teach them how to use it. And like WVASKO, I'm outta here!


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## blackrose (Oct 7, 2006)

I wouldn't use a slip collar in your situation. A prong might be okay - depends on the dog. A no pull harness would also be an alternative, if the only problem is tension on the leash.

I used a prong collar on Chloe when I was teaching her to behave out in public and walk on a leash. I loved it and Chloe still gets excited when she sees it in my hand. However, I haven't had to use it in quite some time (months) as I don't need it anymore.

Either way, all things mentioned above are *tools*. They will not train your dog for you and you _still need to work with your dog to resolve its pulling issues_. 

*follows Wvasko and Corteo out the door*


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

Personally I dig a flat buckle collar the best. With a little patience, preparedness and the right attitude, anything is possible.

BUT as far as *training* collars go I will usually recommend a martingale...

*scuttles out after the others..*


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## pattymac (Oct 11, 2008)

Me, I use a Halti. Tried a prong made her more reactive around other dogs. I put the halti on and she doesn't even try to pull and walks nicely beside me. You do have to let them get used to it though. First time when she was still young, it was like having a wild thing on the end of the leash. Now, she doesn't bother throwing a hissy fit. I think she realizes no halti, no walk.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

I have seen dogs who pull choking their own lights out while on a choke collar while walking. The trick is not in the collar.. it is how you handle the dog when he pulls. Expecting him to stop because he is choking usually does not work. 

However, if every time your dog puts tension on the leash you turn around and walk the other he will get the idea that a tight lead means you are going to turn around. The first time you do this you may only go 12 feet for the entire walk. When doing this the type of collar needs to be one the dog cannot slip. 

If using a choke or a prong collar the object is to use a tug on that collar, NOT a steady pull. They work, but I would try turning and walking the opposite direction (quickly mind you, not slowly!) when the dog tightens the lead.. and I would do it every time he tightens the lead.


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## AkiraleShiba (Dec 9, 2007)

It all depends on if you know how to use it correctly and how to fit it proprely. If you pull on your choke collar like you would on a lawnmower, it's not a good idea (I've seen this too many times). 

If you don't feel qualified for this type of equipment (I know I don't), there's all sorts of other tools like special harnesses and halti. As for Akira, I taught him using positive reinforcement and clicker training to heel.


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## Evania (Feb 3, 2009)

Quite honestly you may want to look into a harness. They help immensely with large dogs who pull. It's how i walk my friend's rottie that refuses to walk nice on a collar. The harness places pressure when the dog pulls and makes it difficult for them to move forward anymore.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I'd try the EZ Walk or Gentle Leader combined with an obedience class.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

jesirose said:


> I'd try the EZ Walk or Gentle Leader combined with an obedience class.



Ditto. You might also look into the Sense-ation Harness.


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## Bully_Mom (Feb 10, 2009)

The trainer from my dog class recomended I use a prong(pinch) collar to curb my lab/pitbull mix's pulling problem. He obviously was very whiny about it at first but got used to it very quickly. He now walks like a dream. I would definitely recomend a prong. My experiences with the chokes are not so good, I dont find the dogs being corrected at all, they just keep on pulling.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

I used a choke for training, and put a pinch on my dog when we go to the park


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Evania said:


> Quite honestly you may want to look into a harness. They help immensely with large dogs who pull. It's how i walk my friend's rottie that refuses to walk nice on a collar. The harness places pressure when the dog pulls and makes it difficult for them to move forward anymore.


You do realize that a harness makes it MORE comfortable and easier for a dog to pull, right?


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## Bully_Mom (Feb 10, 2009)

Dogstar said:


> You do realize that a harness makes it MORE comfortable and easier for a dog to pull, right?



lol this was the mistake I first made because I thought the harness would be safer for the dog so that was initially his only collar, but everyone informed me very quickly that, that would make my pulling issue worse. I didnt even realize he had a pulling issue until I put him on the pinch and realized how good he walked


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

Dogstar said:


> You do realize that a harness makes it MORE comfortable and easier for a dog to pull, right?


Not this...









This...


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

The EZ Walk is a no-pull harness. A regular harness like you find next to the basic collars, yes I do think those make it more comfortable to pull. Which is why people get them for pullers, they don't want the dog to hurt itself. But they don't fix the problem. The EZ Walk helps you fix it.


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

I use a prong collar for my APBT.....but I researched it months before buying one...I have had it fitted for my specific dog so that it sit properly on her.

We are training for weight pull so anytime she is in a harness ....its pull pull pull 

I will phase out the prong collar once she is 100% when walking (lose leash)...we are almost there I would say 80%


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## jnite (Jan 18, 2009)

When we got our pit/collie cross from the SPCA she was horrible on the lead. She pulled everybody at the SPCA all over the place. Well with us not knowing we first tried a choke, NOT a good idea. Then we got the pinch collar and it was the best thing, it didn't take her very long to learn, maybe a couple days and she wasn't pulling us all over. SO I definately would recommend the pinch collar!!


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Interesting thread.

Just a couple of things to add. 

If you do decide on using a prong or pinch collar, please get someone who knows how to show you the proper technique for using it. It isn't difficult - it is just not very intuitive and a lot of people get it wrong.

Remember that it is a _training tool_, not a replacement for a regular flat collar. The goal is to get your dog to walk with a flat collar.


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## ladypeace82 (Feb 23, 2008)

I didn't read anyone else's answers. I am totally against choke chains, pinch collars and anything else that can hurt them. Choke chains can eventually crush their trachea and or cause long term breathing issuse from it being pressed on very hard for a long time. Same with pinch collars. In addition to that they pinch or prong collar can and has been know to go through the dogs skin and into it's throat. I work in playgroup with dogs at petsmart. Our in house vet clinic, Banfield, has had several dogs come in with this type of thing. 
If your dog doesn't pull too much or you can handle it, then get a harness. If they do pull and it's hard to hold them (my dog) Get a head halter or Halti. Gentle leader still causes my hands to ache when he pulls so we use head halter. 

Don't hurt your dog please.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

ladypeace82 said:


> I didn't read anyone else's answers. I am totally against choke chains, pinch collars and anything else that can hurt them. Choke chains can eventually crush their trachea and or cause long term breathing issuse from it being pressed on very hard for a long time. Same with pinch collars. In addition to that they pinch or prong collar can and has been know to go through the dogs skin and into it's throat.


Whether you are pro or con choke/prong collars, there is nothing worthwhile to contributed to the discussion by including misuse and abuse. Reasonable people can disagree on whether it is okay to spank a child (and I'm not offering my opinion on that), but there is no point in including people who beat children with fireplace pokers in the pro-spanking camp. Lets just agree that all the strawmen have already been knocked over.


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## Eyssa (Jul 28, 2008)

It all depends on what harness you get for your dog (in relation to dogs wearing harnesses and how much more comfortable they are). There are some harnesses which are made to decrease the pulling... I use one on two of my dogs. On Tori, it works perfectly... On Bambi, it's a different story. Sometimes it just depends on the dog.

Maybe training the dog not to pull is a better option than making him equipment dependent.


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## poodleholic (Mar 15, 2007)

Oh geez. Me? I prefer to teach loose leash walking and heeling WITHOUT a collar/leash of any kind first. Inside, outside, and never resorting to corrections. I don't care if it takes weeks and weeks. Being consistent, persistent, and above all patient, along with a HUGE dose of FUN, I end up with a dog who is in tandem with ME. No pulling or lunging, so the tool - collar - is irrelevant.


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## IlovemybXrs (Feb 11, 2009)

I totally agree with poodleholic here. Whilst training a particularly excitable young lab I realised that the real problem was that the owners had just not bothered to train her until she was too big for them to handle. I have boxers and they pull when in harnesses (because that's what they are meant to do) and they both walk nicely beside when on their basic lead and flat leather collars. I have however tried many of the pull solutions out of pure curiousity. I find the best thing I can do is actually put the effort in to properly exercise and bond with a dog, rather than these quick fix solutions that everyone seems to want.


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## emily445455 (Apr 8, 2008)

poodleholic said:


> Oh geez. Me? I prefer to teach loose leash walking and heeling WITHOUT a collar/leash of any kind first. Inside, outside, and never resorting to corrections. I don't care if it takes weeks and weeks. Being consistent, persistent, and above all patient, along with a HUGE dose of FUN, I end up with a dog who is in tandem with ME. No pulling or lunging, so the tool - collar - is irrelevant.


Wow, wish I had this kind of patience, lol


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## ladypeace82 (Feb 23, 2008)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Whether you are pro or con choke/prong collars, there is nothing worthwhile to contributed to the discussion by including misuse and abuse. Reasonable people can disagree on whether it is okay to spank a child (and I'm not offering my opinion on that), but there is no point in including people who beat children with fireplace pokers in the pro-spanking camp. Lets just agree that all the strawmen have already been knocked over.


Let me just say that this doesn't make any sense to me. I get the part about spanking children, but what does this have to do with dogs and leads?

Some dogs are just difficult, like mine.
As far as training I have gone to 3 training classes, read books, scoured this website as well as other sites, asked questions and incorporated just about all suggestions that have worked for various people and their pets. I work very limited hours and go to school from 7 am to 12pm. I do have time to work with my dog. Obviously I am not a trainer and each trainer has their own suggestions and each owner has what's worked for them. Every dog is different just like every PP is different. 
We've been working on this since June. Charlie still pulls, he still lunges when he's on his leash, he still barks lunges at people, dogs, bikes, loud trucks and motorcycles but only on his leash. We do not have a yard to get one on one with him. Since dog parks don't allow dogs to be on leads we cannot train in there. Therefore I do not trust him off lead. But then again, it is against the law in my state to have a dog off lead unless on your own property and in enclosed areas. It isn't necessary for me to worry about him walking with me off leash. 
He does loose leash well with Head Halter. That is my suggestion. 
But even with time and patience and this owner being properly trained it isn't always successful. Even with two different trainers working with him it isn't always successful. One of which worked in the police force training and working with the K-9 unit before leaving and working where she is now. 

Getting back to the question of what to walk them with, none of those. Head halter or Halti. If you decide to get your dog trained, be prepared to buy something different if you get a pinch collar and choke chain, most trainers won't allow it.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

ladypeace82 said:


> Let me just say that this doesn't make any sense to me.


I think what Marsh is saying is that damaged tracheas, and puncture wounds are not evidence of the *proper* use of these tools.


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## ladypeace82 (Feb 23, 2008)

How are they properly used? This is a genuine question. My co-workers and I hate putting those on when the PP is picking their dog up. Especially the prong collars. We slide them on as there isn't any other way to do it and they pull and start doing the whole hack and gag and harsh breathing sounds. I go so far as just taking them out on the lead and letting the PP put on the collar b/c I hate seeing them hurting themselves with the pull. 

Nothing ever looks properly used on any of them. It all looks bad.


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## Bully_Mom (Feb 10, 2009)

properly used prong collars should hang slightly loose around the neck and the only way they would be chocking the dog would be if the dog were to pull, which is the sole purpose for the pinch, they only get a slight pinch when they are pulling. The prongs are dull tipped and they also sell rubber tips to put on them as well. So I agree with the proper use argument my dog have never so much as yelped in pain when he gets pinched by his prong. And it is very rare that he does get pinched because the pulling behavior was corrected almost immediately after the use of the prong collar was started.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I said I was going to get off and watch the fun when this thread started but ladypeace82 just drew me in to the fray. Since all obedience dogs I have trained have been started with prong collars and being in this business a long-long time one of the first thing I had to learn was how to put on the prong collar. It's so simple I'm not going to get into the mechanics of putting collar on, It makes me wonder about people who profess to be in the dog business whether it's training or rescue or Vet work etc that would not know how to take collar on and off, especially in an emergency situation(which could happen) If you don't know how to put collar on how could you possibly know anything about the proper usage. Is it possible that you and co-workers are in the wrong line of work. Evidently in N. Texas they must be chaining all these dogs out with prong collars to have all the problems you are encountering at your establishment. In almost 50 years of training dogs and working with other trainers I have never seen a prong collar puncture the skin (and I personally have been tough with dogs) and enter dogs throat. I'm not saying it could not happen, I personally have never seen it with my own eyes. I'm sure if you hooked dog up to the bumper of a car and drove off it could happen. Many people have stated many times the perils of using a prong collar, but with proper use punctures do not happen.


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

ladypeace82 said:


> How are they properly used? This is a genuine question.


If the prong can be slid over the dog's head, it is too loose. It would be advisable to have someone show you how to properly fit one, for the dog in question, than describe it here, but the fit wouldn't be much different than how a martingale collar is fitted. But how it is fitted wasn't the direction I meant by proper use, though this is part of the equation. 

The proper use of the tool is not as a crutch, but there are exceptions...like a smaller person with too much dog. The proper use of the tool is to phase it out, and to demonstrate this. The simplest way to do that is to quantify punishments with rewards. If the ratio doesn't decrease over time, the collar is not effective for you. 

But I agree, prong collars are often ill fitted, and they aren't used appropriately. This is not to say they are ineffective because they are inappropriately used. Now that makes no sense.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

wvasko said:


> Is it possible that you and co-workers are in the wrong line of work. Evidently in N. Texas they must be chaining all these dogs out with prong collars to have all the problems you are encountering at your establishment.


I'm guessing, but I think she works at PetSmart in the PetsHotel. The hotel workers have no training on how to put on special collars because in reality we aren't supposed to be putting them on, it is NOT part of our job. That's what the slip leads in the hotel are for, to take the dogs in and out of the hotel. Let the PP put the prong collars on. I know how to put on a choke collar, but I don't do it. In the hotel dogs are not allowed to wear any collar. We'll hold them for the PP but they should stay in the collar and leash bags.

In an emergency situation we wouldn't be wasting time putting on anyone's collars, the paper collars have their name and our phone number, and we would use slip leads to move the dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I'm not arguing about competency of peace82 or co-workers. I do know that sometimes when people don't like or understand something they may embellish the reply on DF. When you say puncture wounds and damaged trachea's it gives the impression that it's a daily or weekly event. Then when a newbie reads the reply that is not correct there is a problem. It would be interesting to see how many people have seen puncture wounds in a dogs neck from prong collar. Remember we are not talking about abrasion type scrapes on a thin-skinned dog's neck (which is still improper use of collar)we are talking actual holes in throat. Now unless the dogs head is in a vise and a hammer is used to pound the prong into dog's throat it is something that is hard to accomplish. As always my opinion only.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

I was answering your comment that people can't work in a dog-related business and not know how to put on a prong collar. I don't think you need to say we're in the wrong line of business just because we don't know how to do that. We don't need to for our line of work. 

"It makes me wonder about people who profess to be in the dog business whether it's training or rescue or Vet work etc that would not know how to take collar on and off, especially in an emergency situation(which could happen)"

As I said, in an emergency at the PetsHotel, we wouldn't be doing those things.


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## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

I will never use a choker as a training collar on my dog or any dog for that matter. I think they can do a lot of damage.

I have used prong collars in the past but with anything it's a training tool and should be put away once the training is there. I walk my dogs on a buckle collar or martingale collar for everyday use but when walking a shelter dog or training my own I use a prong collar. I believe you would have to work pretty damn hard at misusing it and you would have to be trying to puncture the dogs neck with it for that to happen.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

jesirose
I understand what your saying about "not needing to know" just a question, if you were running into these collars on a regular basis would it not be a good safety issue to learn about the collars as it is easy to get fingers etc caught up in a prong collar. Now remember I was not saying anything about you personally as I would not ever pick on the newly titled Sadie's mommy.


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## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

wvasko said:


> jesirose
> as it is easy to get fingers etc caught up in a prong collar.


Yes it is! I was taking a prong collar off of a shelter lab mix I was walking and the dog was so calm for the most part that I didn't even need it but as I was taking it off the dog decided to try to headbutt me and my finger was in the collar and got bent up in it.

Ouch


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## Mr.bigs mama3 (Feb 10, 2009)

this is very useful info im having the same problems with my yorkie what is best for small dogs he pulls and he trys to run after other dogs im definatley going to go ahead with an obedience class I hope I didnt wait to long hes a year and a half and very set in his ways now hes starting to get aggressive with male dogs he runs off huge dogs and with his aggrresion getting worse we jst spent 500 dollars at the vet for my pikignese getting neutered and he almost lost an eye Im worried he wont be able to be around any other dogs anymore and up til now hes never been aggressive at all towards anyone or other males its so frustrating..


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## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

pinch collars arent just for big dogs, you can find the micro pinch collars online or in a few feed stores.

my neighbor uses one on her min pin who is just starting obedience.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

SMoore said:


> pinch collars arent just for big dogs, you can find the micro pinch collars online or in a few feed stores.
> 
> my neighbor uses one on her min pin who is just starting obedience.


that to me is rediculous. im sorry, but if...nevermind im not getting into it.

what i have to say is they arent something i would start with. start with a head collar or no pull harness, then a martingale, then a prong, and at last a choke. but this is if all other methods fail. 

training not to pull takes A LOT of time and patience. they also call these training aids for a reason.

BUT- if you have to resort to either a choke or a prong, PLEASE have a professional (no, not those people walking around petsmart telling you to buy it, im talking a REAL TRAINER with EXPERIENCE and KNOWLEDGE) show you how to fit it and use it properly. 

even a head collar needs to be fitted properly to be effective


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## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

To be honest, it doesn't have to. I would MUCH rather see someone learn to use a prong correctly and teach their dog to walk correctly BEFORE bad habits had been developed than to waste 18 months trying 'everything'. 

I teach a lot of my dogs' leash manners off leash initially (walking with attention, free-shaped and stolen from CTH) BUT I'd much rather see someone start out using a management tool of some sort (prong, no pull, or whatever) to PREVENT pulling from ever developing while they trained.


Cait





GreatDaneMom said:


> that to me is rediculous. im sorry, but if...nevermind im not getting into it.
> 
> what i have to say is they arent something i would start with. start with a head collar or no pull harness, then a martingale, then a prong, and at last a choke. but this is if all other methods fail.
> 
> ...


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> what i have to say is they arent something i would start with. start with a head collar or no pull harness, then a martingale, then a prong, and at last a choke. but this is if all other methods fail.


Every tool is not appropriate for every dog, and every owner is not comfortable with every tool. But we needn't discuss prong collars as if they were some sort of "nuclear option". Used properly, most dogs get the message quickly and few corrections are needed. My dog hated-hated-hated the Gentle Leader.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Every tool is not appropriate for every dog, and every owner is not comfortable with every tool. But we needn't discuss prong collars as if they were some sort of "nuclear option". Used properly, most dogs get the message quickly and few corrections are needed. My dog hated-hated-hated the Gentle Leader.


I refuse to nag a dog when training, getting the message quickly and properly with fewer corrections is a plan.


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## SMoore (Nov 9, 2007)

So you'd rather train a smaller breed dog on a harness just because they're small? If used correctly a pinch collar wouldn't do anymore damage to them then a large dog and for most corrections for the average dog i'd say don't actually do any damage to the dog.

I see people all the time walking little dogs on a harness trying to make them walk properly.

Oh and Petsmart trainers will do anything they can to get you not to use a pinch collar. I walked in with Pandora on one when she was younger and got dirty looks from the trainer not to mention several of their harness suggestions and all I wanted to do was buy some pig ears and leave.

For daily walking on my dogs now I use a martingale but they learned how to walk properly with a pinch collar. I would use their flat collar but I like the martingale and i dont like putting pressure or wearing out the collar that holds their ID and vet tags.


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## ladypeace82 (Feb 23, 2008)

Thank you jesirose. I am in the PetsMart PetsHotel. The managers would prefer us to put on all harness and collars if we can but we are not required to. Especially if they are those complicated step-in harnesses. But with choke chains, well I'll put them on if I can figure it out. Usually I can't b/c the dog is so excited that it's difficult to get it on. I mean the choke chain can be similar to the leads we use in the back as far as "choking".
But I refuse to do the pinch collars. I'll let the PP do that. 

I'm just repeating what the trainers have said. When I was in the training classes for 8 months total and now that I work there. And, I believe someone said we should trust the trainers not just the people walking around telling you to buy something other than the pinch collar. 
That is where I get my information. Whether it's right, wrong or over exaggerated, it doesn't matter to me. 
I don't like them.
To me it goes along with the shock collar. 
Now who agrees with those? Properly used? A lazy way to take time to train your dog? Humane or inhumane? 
They are the same to me. And yes, I truely believe that a dog who's had a lifetime of using a choke collar can get a crushed trachea or have a lifetime of breathing issues because they have been pulling and pressing on it. 
Personal experience. My mother, her dog is about 13 years old now. A beagle mix. She has breathing issues and has to stop when walking to breath. Which sounds horrible. As if she has something stuck in her windpipe or something is pressing on it. Even though at that moment it isn't. 
I trust my trainers, especially the one who worked for the K-9 unit and I'm trusting my managers who have worked with dogs in hotels for years. 
Even though it's been a long time coming my dog isn't pulling much anymore. 
Patience.


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## jesirose (Mar 27, 2008)

wvasko said:


> jesirose
> if you were running into these collars on a regular basis would it not be a good safety issue to learn about the collars


I think people who intend to stick around do learn about them. The problem is we have to find someone to show us. Who, working at PetSmart, would you trust to show how to use a prong collar? .... Right.

I wouldn't know where to look to find someone to teach me how to put on and off a prong collar. I'm not going to take the owner's word that they're doing it right, for all I know they just bought it in the store last week. 

Do you know of a video on the web that shows the right way to do it? That would be helpful. Maybe you could make one for us


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## pugmom (Sep 10, 2008)

....but there in lies the problem...."over a lifetime a choke collar can cause damage"....a choke or a prong collar should not need to be used forever.....but until the animals has mastered what ever your goal is....Patients is a wonderful thing and every dog owner should practice it with there dog...but some people cant wait 14 months to train their dog.....if you have a large breed dog..or like me a dog that is extremely powerful...you may need something to add to your training ..because almost every dog needs at least one walk a day....and if your not able to control your animal you are a danger to yourself, your dog and to others....I don't see the use of a prong/choke collar as being lazy or cruel


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> Every tool is not appropriate for every dog, and every owner is not comfortable with every tool. But we needn't discuss prong collars as if they were some sort of "nuclear option". Used properly, most dogs get the message quickly and few corrections are needed. My dog hated-hated-hated the Gentle Leader.


actually where did i say it was a "nuclear option"? i use one on one of my danes, my other dane has been weaned off.

when it comes down to it, yes not ever tool is going to work for every dog. but chokes and prongs are the MOST misued tools and ive seen many many dogs shut down from improper (doesnt always mean abusive) use of them.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> actually where did i say it was a "nuclear option"? i use one on one of my danes, my other dane has been weaned off.


It was the suggestion that a prong collar is only a last resort that I have a problem with.



GreatDaneMom said:


> but chokes and prongs are the MOST misued tools and ive seen many many dogs shut down from improper (doesnt always mean abusive) use of them.


IMO, the human brain is the most misused training tool with the human hand/human voice in a tie for second place. I'm not being a smartass when I say that.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

Marsh Muppet said:


> It was the suggestion that a prong collar is only a last resort that I have a problem with.
> 
> 
> 
> IMO, the human brain is the most misused training tool with the human hand/human voice in a tie for second place. I'm not being a smartass when I say that.


well sorry, i dont think the average person should even have access to chokes or prongs. i dont know why you have a problem with someone opinion. like i said, prongs and chokes are the most misused. it helps that GL and GL harnesses are sold with a video on how to properly fit and use it. i dont see prongs and chokers with that


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

People
you both use a prong collar and you're arguing with each other, us prong collar users got to stop bickering amongst ourselves.


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## ladypeace82 (Feb 23, 2008)

[/IMG]

*Baby Charlie says, "I'm gonna kiss you all silly!" Let's agree to disagree. *


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## Moker (Feb 5, 2009)

wvasko said:


> People
> you both use a prong collar and you're arguing with each other, us prong collar users got to stop bickering amongst ourselves.


i was thinking the same thing. 

when i use the prong collar on bismarck, i notice a huge difference in his pulling. he pulls initially, sticks himself, then resides to walk with me. 
currently i'm trying to get him used to a halti. man he hates that thing with a passion though. we're doing short walks with it on (just on, no leash on it yet), and i see him try to paw it off, open his mouth to get it off, etc..
hand under his chin to get his head up, and off the harness, a quick "no", and we make it another 40 steps or so before he goes bonkers again.

am i doing something wrong, or is it just going to take a little time to get him used to it. is there something i could be doing "better"?


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