# 17 year old trainer?



## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

What would you guys think of a 17 year old trainer? Would you automatically disregard them? I'm curious, and have a few questions about it, because right now I'm 17 (18 in July) and am really interested in doing some private training this spring and summer to start with as a way to make some extra cash and get more experience. I would obviously not be trying to train anything that I didn't know about, and would tell a person that I couldn't train their dog if I couldn't do what they wanted. 

I would be focusing mainly on;
puppy stuff (I know this best)
an idea I found called pre-puppy awarness (talking with a family about a dog/puppy breed/age that best fits their lifestye)
basic obedience
some advanced obedience
simple trick stuff (shake, bang, sit pretty, etc)
socialization & play dates (with my dogs and other client's dogs)
and any behavioural issues that I am familiar with (food, leash aggression, barking, etc) 

I wouldn't be charging much as I'm not a professional, and anything is better than nothing for me. Should I charge hourly though, or in a different way?

Also, should I buy my own training equipment or tell them to purchase it for our lessons? If I should buy my own (which I'm thinking I should/want to, should I buy it all at once or wait until the need arises for a certain tool?

And is it absolutely necessary that I am insured? I've heard this mentioned, and if I had to, I would, but would really rather not mess with it. If so, how do I go about getting insured and what are reason for needing it?

What could be the problems with this idea as far as age and experience?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

What are your qualifications? If you were an OTCH handler, I would consider you. If you had a couple of pets, I would maybe look elsewhere. If you are a minor and get sued, your parents would likely wish you were insured...


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

The only qualifications I have are from years of owning dogs and training unoficially at the local humane society.. Haha and I got offered a training job at petsmart ofthat counts for anything.

What kind of things would there be that I could get sued for?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

I'd take the training job at Petsmart and work there for a while first. Once you're legally an adult, it will be a lot easier to get insured, especially if you have experience at a known company.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

You could get sued for about a million reasons. The ones that I think are most likely:

A dog you worked with bites someone after you gave advice to the family.
A dog gets off-lead and gets hit by a car while you are working with it.
An owner slips and falls while you are helping them.

Things like that. When you take money for services like this, you can get sued.

If you work for a petshop, THEY will get sued if something goes terribly wrong. The pet store job sounds like a GREAT opportunity! I wish you the best of luck!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Petsmart does sound like a great opportunity, but unfortunately i'm onloy 17 right now so can't take it for a while. that's why i was looking for something i could do in my free time.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Why don't you see if there are trainers in your area looking for assistants? That's what I did (and still do). I know a few trainers that give classes that appreciate the help, though it's often not paid at first, and you can learn, grow and experience the different people and dogs. It's a great place to start.

If there is a trainer who's style and methods you like, even better.


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## Darla Giselle (Feb 19, 2010)

I think that sounds like a fun summer job, coming from another 17 year old! I know many teens who know nothing about dog trainers and they need HELP. LOL Good luck!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Cracker said:


> Why don't you see if there are trainers in your area looking for assistants? That's what I did (and still do). I know a few trainers that give classes that appreciate the help, though it's often not paid at first, and you can learn, grow and experience the different people and dogs. It's a great place to start.
> 
> If there is a trainer who's style and methods you like, even better.


That would be a good idea. i believe there's only one local trainer, but i'll contact her. thanks!


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## Trixie (Feb 27, 2008)

Make sure you and your parents are bonded and insured. I would use a young trainer, but I would want to know that they had enough sense to be legally responsible for anything that may go wrong.

Even dog walkers need to be bonded and insured.

On that, what about dog walking?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I'd love to walk dogs too, but I'm fairly positive there's no demand for dog walkers in this area. Most people don't care about their dogs, or animals for that matter, once they're full grown.  Otherwise, I would definitely be willing to do that. I may do that once I move in July to a bigger city. How would I go about getting insured for that/how much would it cost?


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## Trixie (Feb 27, 2008)

Don't dismiss people! You're in the Kalamazoo area, right? Geesh, I can absolutely guarentee that there are people who need their dogs walked. I think you'd be surprised at how many people care about their dogs. I used to live in K-zoo. I know the area well.

I am in a far, far more rural and "backwards" part of the country (I live deep in Appalachia, in Southwest Virginia, right on the border with Tennessee) and we know loads of people who love their dogs. I can name a half a dozen people off the top of my head, including ourselves, who would love a dog walker who could come in 1-2 times/week on the days when we have trouble getting off work for an hour or so. 

Start small and build up a client base with recommendations, and the demand will follow. And the nice thing is you can go to school and be a dog-walker to help fund your education.

I have a friend who made a living (and a fairly comfortable one at that) of dog-walking in Toronto, but you definitely do not need to be in a city to create a demand. 

As far as being bonded and insured -- you can find info on that through a Google search. That varies state-by-state.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Alright, thanks. I'm not actually in the kzoo area right now, but I'm moving this summer, when I'll definitely check out dog walking because I'm sure it is a lot more demanding there. I kind of live in a crappy little town in the middle of nowhere right now, but I'll post an ad somewhere to gauge interest. Thank you for the advice!


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

I think you need a lot more experience with a wider range of dogs.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> I think you need a lot more experience with a wider range of dogs.


Are you even aware of the experience I already have?

My own dogs of course, which are trained religiously and are dolls. (Pitbull/Chow, Beagle, GSD, Lab)
Family members dogs (ranging from pitbulls, yorkies, poms, st. bernards, labs, shepherds)
And the dogs at the Humane Society are probably the best experience as they are completey unpredictable with ranging ages, sizes, temperaments, breeds, etc. I've trained dozens there. 

I realize I need more experience for now, but I am confident I COULD do all of the things I previously listed as I do have tons of experience in those categories, though I do need more experience actually working with people and training. I've worked with most breeds under the sun available to my area though, I know that.


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## Trixie (Feb 27, 2008)

To be fair, there is only so much experience a 17-year-old can possibly have. Don't get me wrong, there are mature, well-rounded 17-year-olds and I have no idea if you are one or not, but you still probably need a lot more experience and exposure.

And not just with dogs, but with life. Because training dogs isn't just training dogs, it is training owners, working with owners and their partners and kids. It is handling a crazy owner and one with lots of experience. It is how to handle someone who assumes you are stupid and how to handle someone who has trouble grasping concepts. It's knowing when to advise someone that they need a different trainer than yourself. It's knowing when group training works and when private training is best.

It's finding a lawyer should something go wrong, being able to handle a small-claims court (think it won't happen? Think again. I've been taken to small claims court -- and won -- and nothing I do is dangerous in the least. My lawyer was excellent and we only spoke on the phone!) and even worse, a real-live law suit, even though most are settled out of court.

Maybe none of this will ever happen, but it takes some maturity and life experience to know that it can happen and what to do if it does.

I think this is why a lot of people suggest taking a course though something like PetSmart. There you will not just learn the ropes of training, but also gain exposure and experience with different people, and you'll have back-up should something go wrong, and it will go wrong because that is the nature of the beast.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Trixie said:


> To be fair, there is only so much experience a 17-year-old can possibly have. Don't get me wrong, there are mature, well-rounded 17-year-olds and I have no idea if you are one or not, but you still probably need a lot more experience and exposure.
> 
> And not just with dogs, but with life. Because training dogs isn't just training dogs, it is training owners, working with owners and their partners and kids. It is handling a crazy owner and one with lots of experience. It is how to handle someone who assumes you are stupid and how to handle someone who has trouble grasping concepts. It's knowing when to advise someone that they need a different trainer than yourself. It's knowing when group training works and when private training is best.
> 
> ...


I definitely understand this, and realize I do need some more experience with people, which I why I am going to take the petsmart job and am contacting a local trainer to apprentice under now. I don't appreciate some people just telling me that I need more experience without asking about what I do or don't already have though, that's all.

Just a side-note, I already do have a lawyer, and he's a very excellent one as well.


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## Labsnothers (Oct 10, 2009)

At 17, my daughter was a highly competent dog trainer. She was only 13 when we started raising puppies for the dog guide school. None of us knew that much about dogs although we had had dogs before and knew more than most people. The school didn't have near the support thne as now. They gave us the puppy, an instruction manual and said ''Call if you have questions.'' Their instruction manual is the best thing I ever read on dog care and training. It has been revised twice since then and now is loose leaf so they can email us updates. 

My daughter brought a steady stream of books home form the library. I read them too and weighed them against the real world. The next year, she signed up for 4-H. We had some great leaders, better than the average AKC certified instructor. Later the school started conducting monthly training sessions. So it is quite possible for a 17 year old to know dogs well.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Labsnothers said:


> At 17, my daughter was a highly competent dog trainer. She was only 13 when we started raising puppies for the dog guide school. None of us knew that much about dogs although we had had dogs before and knew more than most people. The school didn't have near the support thne as now. They gave us the puppy, an instruction manual and said ''Call if you have questions.'' Their instruction manual is the best thing I ever read on dog care and training. It has been revised twice since then and now is loose leaf so they can email us updates.
> 
> My daughter brought a steady stream of books home form the library. I read them too and weighed them against the real world. The next year, she signed up for 4-H. We had some great leaders, better than the average AKC certified instructor. Later the school started conducting monthly training sessions. _So it is quite possible for a 17 year old to know dogs well_.


I realize that. And I do. What point are you trying to make, exactly? My parents have been raising and breeding puppies since I was born and I've been in much of the same position your daughter was. No 4-h, because my parents are dead beats and wouldn't let me do it, or I would have. I've been reading books and magazines about dogs since I could read, they've always been my passion since I grew up with so many. I've been raised to know as much as I possibly could about dogs.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Being perfectly honest here, I wouldn't hire or recommend a 17 year old professional dog trainer. I won't hire or recommend a trainer who isn't APDT/CCPDT certified, and/or one who has not competed successfully (titled dogs) in at least one of the dog sports I am interested in: Agility, Rally O, Obedience, etc. Even with certification and/or titled dogs, I have found plenty of trainers who I wouldn't work with again. There's a lot more to training dogs than knowing dogs. Like other posters have said, you've really got to know how to work with people, too. I've taken many classes with trainers who were skilled at handling dogs, but who could not effectively teach me. I learned some things from those experiences, but frequently came away from it frustrated, confused, and lacking the skills I needed to move on. At one point I did not even want to return to class every week. And I do expect a trainer to be running their business as a business with licensing, insurance, etc.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> Being perfectly honest here, I wouldn't hire or recommend a 17 year old professional dog trainer. I won't hire or recommend a trainer who isn't APDT/CCPDT certified, and/or one who has not competed successfully (titled dogs) in at least one of the dog sports I am interested in: Agility, Rally O, Obedience, etc. Even with certification and/or titled dogs, I have found plenty of trainers who I wouldn't work with again. There's a lot more to training dogs than knowing dogs. Like other posters have said, you've got to know how to teach people, too. And I do expect a trainer to be running their business as a business with licensing, insurance, etc.


I've been keeping an eye on this thread lately... and I completely agree with you here. I wouldnt even think twice.
Nessa


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## GroovyGroomer777 (Aug 21, 2008)

DJEtzel said:


> . No 4-h, because my parents are *dead beats *and wouldn't let me do it, or I would have. .


 Your folks who offered to loan you money to start up a rescue!?


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

I wouldn't be charging much as I'm not a professional, and anything is better than nothing for me. Should I charge hourly though, or in a different way?

_You become a professional when you take money for services. Most trainers charge hourly for private consultations. Classes are usually x dollars per class, for x weeks. I'd venture a guess that if you're a cheap noob with no real credentials that people would be getting what they paid for, and that's too bad. Most dogs are given up due to training and/or behavioral issues. People really need someone to start them off correctly from the get-go. Many puppies aren't all right to begin with. What are you going to do when presented with an overly fearful puppy, for example? What would you recommend for one showing signs of separation anxiety, or reactivity?_


Also, should I buy my own training equipment or tell them to purchase it for our lessons? If I should buy my own (which I'm thinking I should/want to, should I buy it all at once or wait until the need arises for a certain tool?

_What kind of training equipment are you talking about? I thought you were going to focus on the basics, so wouldn't all that would be needed be a leash, collar and rewards? I am taking a dog Core Strengthening & Tricks class right now that involves exercise balls, peanuts, eggs and discs. Previously, I've taken Rally O, Obedience and Agility classes that involved all sorts of equipment, from marker signs to heavy duty dog walks, A frames, jumps, etc. While I have invested in having these things for my own use at home, not every one can afford to and I don't want to have to haul my own stuff to class every time. Besides, if you're a trainer who has trained such things, shouldn't you have your own equipment that your students can use?_

Really, these questions you raised are so basic that I would recommend that if training is something you really want to do you read Nicole Wilde's books on being a dog trainer, and the APDT Dog Trainer's Resource 1 & 2, including a subscription to the Chronicle of the Dog magazine. When you finish those, I'll suggest a few more. I have those and more, and I'm not even a professional trainer...


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## tgif (Dec 10, 2009)

As I've been watching this thread for awhile, I've come to agree and disagree with some people. Personally I wouldn't mind hiring a 17 year old trainer being one myself as long as they can prove they know what they are doing and they are respectful to the people and of course the dogs. OF course that said you really have to do alot of research, on all sorts of things, different breeds, training methods, dog psychology and human psychology as well, research prices in your area of local trainers, Im glad you have experience working with dog and I'm assuming some people, but I bet you could use some more. Take the job at petsmart and try to get that apprenticeship, and if you can try competing and maybe titling some dogs since that seems like what some people want. I was considering trying to start my own dog training thing but I've pushed that to the side for now because I know that people simply wont trust the judgment of a 17 yearold regardless of how good we actually are. I've tried to train my little jack rat with my mom, but she thought it was weird getting instructions from her kid, though their relationship with each other greatly improved when she did the exercises which was my goal. if you want try settling for now somthing like dog walking or pet sitting. It's not the same but this way you can build respect and trust and maybe gain some references. If thats not for you look into getting certified, but be warned that costs a bit,if you do it the right way that was another reason why I didnt follow through right now. I was in a near same predicament you are in, I've been training and working with dogs for over 11 years, with tons of different issues, but I'm not certified, and people dont really trust a 17 year old with their dogs especially with some one that they dont know.

As for your other questions, have them provided their own equipment, I'm not sure how much you should charge,depends on what you are comofortable with and your area. You dont have to be insured, but it's highly recommended that you are, especially if you want people to hire you. 

Well good luck with your dog training, if you have any other questions i'd be happy to answer them if I can. Plus let me know what you decide to do, I'm also still interested in starting my own though right now I'm doing dog walking until I gain some trust in my area as there aren't any local trainers in my area that I know of, how did you get started at the shelter? I'm interested in doing something like that too, for experience.


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## GreatDaneMom (Sep 21, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> I won't hire or recommend a trainer who isn't APDT/CCPDT certified, and/or one who has not competed successfully (titled dogs) in at least one of the dog sports I am interested in: Agility, Rally O, Obedience, etc.


see this is strange to me. why do they have to have competed? if youre just teaching regular basic obedience to people who are not looking to compete, then why is this an issue? some people, even trainers, are just not interested in competing....

also to be APDT/CCPDT cert. you need to have a certain amount of hours broke up between either assisting a trainer/working at a shelter training/ heading your own classes/ doing private lessons, etc. so if you would never hire someone who wasnt cert. in either of these....well... sorry but people have to start somewhere. i think its 300 hours they have to have atleast. so if no one ever gives these people a chance, then where are we ever going to see new trainers come from?

ETA: i have done puppy soc, puppy obedience, and basic obedience classes. i have also done doggie boot camp with diffcult dogs, worked aggressive dogs, and trained adult and puppy shelter dogs. i also took a class with Pia Sylvani- i do not have a CCPDT/APDT cert. yet because i have not been able to make it to a test- but this doesnt mean i dont know how to train a dog..... do i think the cert will help me? yep! but i wouldnt say someone is any less of a trainer without one.


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

tgif said:


> As I've been watching this thread for awhile, I've come to agree and disagree with some people. Personally I wouldn't mind hiring a 17 year old trainer being one myself as long as they can prove they know what they are doing and they are respectful to the people and of course the dogs.
> I was in a near same predicament you are in, I've been training and working with dogs for over 11 years, with tons of different issues, but I'm not certified, and people dont really trust a 17 year old with their dogs especially with some one that they dont know.
> 
> .


 I wouldn't hire a 17 yr old to train, or even do in-house petsitting, as I just don't think they have the maturity no matter how nice or smart they are. They just don't have the judgement/life experience to make some decisions.

And I'm really sorry, but I just don't think you can count your family owning dogs while you were 6 yrs old until now(with you being 17 yrs old), as 11 years of training experience.


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## tgif (Dec 10, 2009)

I agree 100% with GreatDaneMom! I forgot to mention the APDT/CCPDT cert. 11 years in total, but perhaps about 8 or nine years of actual research and training, seeing as i've always been the one training my dogs, from scratch, including their behavioral issues. Regardless if we took them to a trainer, I was the one who did the exercises, and we only used an actual trainer once. and when I was young I trained that dog, its not impossible for a six year old to train a dog especially if it was just the basics, I was mature for my age (plus, I've seen my siblings do it to, and they're pretty good.). And of course mom and dad helped, We all have to start somewhere don't we?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I expect that my trainers have titles on their dogs even if I am just working the basics.

Right or wrong, getting the title means that your training was precise enough to earn that title. The trainer's dog was able to work under distraction and meet a certain standard. I want that assurance. Everyone can train a dog to perform in their livingroom. Not everyone can train a dog to hold up off-leash in a show environment.

The title also means that the trainer hangs out with other dog people and stays current (in familiarity at least) with new methods.

If you want to train, go get a few titles. Then when people ask for your credential, list them. There is so much to be learned on the journey to a performance title. Really.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

People have to start somewhere, but they don't have to start out on their own on my dollar.

As far as why it's so important to me that a trainer competes and/or is certified and continues with their training education, for one thing, I hope to begin competing this year in Rally O, and in Agility next year. For now, I'm working on getting a CGC title on one of my dogs in a couple months. Years ago, when I looked into training classes when I was "just" a pet owner with no interest in competitions, I didn't care about finding a trainer who competes, but since getting involved with those who DO train and compete and do things to further their knowledge in training like going to Clicker Expo, I have come to realise how much more they can share than many trainers who focus only the basics. These trainers' knowledge base doesn't just cover how to best get your dog to perform a flashy heel, or long distance stay, or jump safely, or turn tight on course, but also how to get your dog to recall amazingly well, how to get your puppy to really bond with you, how to train your dog to focus in the face of insane distractions, how to manage your dog around others, how to take care of your dog including things most pet owners tend not to think about like massage, how to improve your timing and cues, how to motivate those hard to motivate dogs, etc. These are trainer's trainers, and many of them are truly amazing. If I am paying for someone's advice, I want the best advice money can buy.


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## chul3l3ies1126 (Aug 13, 2007)

pamperedpups said:


> People have to start somewhere, but they don't have to start out on their own on my dollar.
> 
> * If I am paying for someone's advice, I want the best advice money can buy.*


Again, I totally agree. *thumbs up*
Nessa


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Okay, I've read through all these posts and have found there's a general consesus about being titled. I want to get into showing anyway and am working towards it, and that is a perfectly reasonable requirement for a trainer, I'd say, I just definitely didn't think about it. I do have a question though, since I'm not into showing and don't know a lot of the technicalities of it yet; by titleing, do you mean in any kind of show placing somehow? Or very advanced shows and winning? I'm just not quite sure how this aspect works. 

Now I'm going to try to respond to all of your questions/advice individually..



GroovyGroomer777 said:


> Your folks who offered to loan you money to start up a rescue!?


Yes. Just because they're dead-beat, doesn't mean they don't have money. They're more of the "if I see it on paper or there's a good reason for it and it will work, I'll give you the cash" but there's no way you can expect them to actually DO something for me. 



pamperedpups said:


> You become a professional when you take money for services. Most trainers charge hourly for private consultations. Classes are usually x dollars per class, for x weeks. I'd venture a guess that if you're a cheap noob with no real credentials that people would be getting what they paid for, and that's too bad. Most dogs are given up due to training and/or behavioral issues. People really need someone to start them off correctly from the get-go. Many puppies aren't all right to begin with. What are you going to do when presented with an overly fearful puppy, for example? What would you recommend for one showing signs of separation anxiety, or reactivity?
> 
> *First of all, I wouldn't say I'm a cheap noob. I know enough about training to be able to do basic stuff, while I do admit I need some help with the people aspect. Just because I'm young and don't expect to be paid tons of money doesn't mean I wouldn't offer at least decent services. I definitely know how to handle puppies best. For a fearful puppy, if I decided to take it on, as I know I can't handle everything, I would probably do some sort of an owner/puppy bonding type thing, playing with the puppy, letting it win, starting with simple commands, and praising exuberantly (but quietly of course) for any good things they accomplished, making it as happy and exciting for them. To be honest though, just starting out, I probably wouldn't want to deal with problems like this since I am not trained in those areas.*
> 
> ...


I'll definitely check those out, see if I can download them, if not I'll save up some cash, thank you!



tgif said:


> Well good luck with your dog training, if you have any other questions i'd be happy to answer them if I can. Plus let me know what you decide to do, I'm also still interested in starting my own though right now I'm doing dog walking until I gain some trust in my area as there aren't any local trainers in my area that I know of, how did you get started at the shelter? I'm interested in doing something like that too, for experience.


I pretty much walked into my local humane society and asked about volunteering. They gave me an orientation, I told them I wanted to train and socialize, and they said okay. They pretty much can use all the help they can get. I go in there a couple of days a week, work with a few select dogs until they're adopted for a good portion of the time, and spend the rest of the time talking with people looking for pets about each individual pet, what would be best for them, etc, and help them get animals out for "meet and greets". I also signed up for adoption events on the weekend where I pretty much get assigned a dog I've been working with, take it to a petsmart where we have a booth set up with other handlers and dogs, and walk the dog around with an ADOPT ME vest on and work with it in the store, introducing the dog to people and sharing his/her story with them in hopes of getting them adopted. It's very rewarding, believe me.



spotted nikes said:


> I wouldn't hire a 17 yr old to train, or even do in-house petsitting, as I just don't think they have the maturity no matter how nice or smart they are. They just don't have the judgement/life experience to make some decisions.


I'm sorry you feel this way, about the petsitting anyway. I'm sure you'll just think I am like every other teenager thinking they're perfect, but I honestly think with my life experiences thus far that I could manage pet sitting for a few hours, days, or up to a week or two. I may only be 17 but in just a few months I'll be managing my own home and wouldn't discredit somebody doing the same just because of their age.



pamperedpets said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> People have to start somewhere, but they don't have to start out on their own on my dollar.
> 
> As far as why it's so important to me that a trainer competes and/or is certified and continues with their training education, for one thing, I hope to begin competing this year in Rally O, and in Agility next year. For now, I'm working on getting a CGC title on one of my dogs in a couple months. Years ago, when I looked into training classes when I was "just" a pet owner with no interest in competitions, I didn't care about finding a trainer who competes, but since getting involved with those who DO train and compete and do things to further their knowledge in training like going to Clicker Expo, I have come to realise how much more they can share than many trainers who focus only the basics. These trainers' knowledge base doesn't just cover how to best get your dog to perform a flashy heel, or long distance stay, or jump safely, or turn tight on course, but also how to get your dog to recall amazingly well, how to get your puppy to really bond with you, how to train your dog to focus in the face of insane distractions, how to manage your dog around others, how to take care of your dog including things most pet owners tend not to think about like massage, how to improve your timing and cues, how to motivate those hard to motivate dogs, etc. These are trainer's trainers, and many of them are truly amazing. If I am paying for someone's advice, I want the best advice money can buy.


Does CGC count as a title then? I'm working towards this with Frag right now..

Thank you everyone for the advice/comments.
I have a question; would it help gauge anything and/or could you critique a video if I taped one and uploaded it of me doing some sort of training, etc, or not? Just looking for help in any way possible.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

A CGC is sort of a title, but not one I would count. A title in AKC would be a CD, a CDX, a UD. If you get on the AKC website, you can read about these events. There are also Rally titles, Agility titles, tracking titles, earthdog titles, luring...

Explore the AKC site. It's a free wealth of knowledge into the ins and outs of the show world. There are other venues as well, such as UKC and APDT. I know less about these.\

If your dog is a mixed breed, that is no longer a problem with the AKC. You can register and compete in mixed breed events starting in April.

I like your can-do spirit and your willingness to learn. I am a mentor trainer with ABC and I would love to work with someone with your attitude and commitment to shelter dogs.

I wish you the very best. I have no doubt that you can help people. Just get your feet a little more wet... You will NOT regret it!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> A CGC is sort of a title, but not one I would count. A title in AKC would be a CD, a CDX, a UD. If you get on the AKC website, you can read about these events. There are also Rally titles, Agility titles, tracking titles, earthdog titles, luring...
> 
> Explore the AKC site. It's a free wealth of knowledge into the ins and outs of the show world. There are other venues as well, such as UKC and APDT. I know less about these.\
> 
> ...


Thank you. I'll definitely check out the AKC some more to figure out more about showing and what exactly all these abbreviations mean. 

My mixed breed would be the only one that I could phsyically show right now, but he's so old there would be no use in trying to train him. He's going blind and deaf and is a good 15 years now, and intact. He's turning quite senile in his old age too, and I'd like to let him live out his days carefree.

I'm definitely registering my beagle and GSD with the PAL listing through AKC, but my beagle needs much more work and to lose weight before I can show her, and my GSD is too young and also needs work for showing, but I'm working on it! 

And thank you for the comment about my can-do spirit and willingness to learn. At least I know someone will appreciate it, sometime.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Personally I wouldn't hire a 17 yr. old , who calls their parents who have taken care of & supported them their whole life, deadbeats on a public forum to even scoop my dog poop!
How ungrateful!


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

You can get those books I mentioned used at amazon.com for a fraction of what they cost new. Dogwise.com also carries them new. Chronicle of the Dog costs $50. a year to subscribe to, but is beyond worth it.

Getting a CGC says your dog knows the basics. It's a good starting point to something more demanding. A dog sport title requires that you win or place (somehow, usually by points and/or time) in a certain kind of class x amount of times. A title doesn't have to be awarded by AKC to be worth a darn to many people. APDT holds Rally O trials in many places, and there are also many other venues for Agility, Flyball, Freestyle, etc. Your non-AKC dogs could compete through APDT, NADAC, etc., etc., etc. The only requirement for some of them is, like AKC PAL, the dogs need to be altered first.

Definitely check around to see what kind of training classes are being offered in your area and if possible, sign up for something this summer.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> Personally I wouldn't hire a 17 yr. old , who calls their parents who have taken care of & supported them their whole life, deadbeats on a public forum to even scoop my dog poop!
> How ungrateful!


I'm sorry.. I don't believe I'm being ungrateful for anything. Did I ever say they supported me? Because I don't believe I did.. but if I did, I definitely didn't mean to, since they never have and don't. I would barely consider anything they've done taking care of me either. I'm definitely grateful for the money because I'd probably be dead without it. But support is something they lack. I was raised by my grandmother for the first 14 years of my life while sleeping at my parents house basically. They always provided financially, but that was it. Alcohol, drugs, whatever they want to say their excuse is, you name it. I'm sorry I'm not more grateful for this... 



pamperedpups said:


> You can get those books I mentioned used at amazon.com for a fraction of what they cost new. Dogwise.com also carries them new. Chronicle of the Dog costs $50. a year to subscribe to, but is beyond worth it.
> 
> Getting a CGC says your dog knows the basics. It's a good starting point to something more demanding. A dog sport title requires that you win or place (somehow, usually by points and/or time) in a certain kind of class x amount of times. A title doesn't have to be awarded by AKC to be worth a darn to many people. APDT holds Rally O trials in many places, and there are also many other venues for Agility, Flyball, Freestyle, etc. Your non-AKC dogs could compete through APDT, NADAC, etc., etc., etc. The only requirement for some of them is, like AKC PAL, the dogs need to be altered first.
> 
> Definitely check around to see what kind of training classes are being offered in your area and if possible, sign up for something this summer.


I figured checking amazon would be my best bet. I don't know if I'll be able to get the money to subscribe to Chronical of the Dog, but I'll definitely try, and I've definitely been looking around into classes here or there for Kit and Frag this summer. Do you think I should start with a intro to agility class or obedience first? Or should I do one in one and one in the other?


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I'm sorry.. I don't believe I'm being ungrateful for anything. Did I ever say they supported me? Because I don't believe I did.. but if I did, I definitely didn't mean to, since they never have and don't. I would barely consider anything they've done taking care of me either. I'm definitely grateful for the money because I'd probably be dead without it. But support is something they lack. I was raised by my grandmother for the first 14 years of my life while sleeping at my parents house basically. They always provided financially, but that was it. Alcohol, drugs, whatever they want to say their excuse is, you name it. I'm sorry I'm not more grateful for this...


Sorry, I stand by my post...Your attitude is very telling of your maturity level...I'd spend my $ with a much more mature trainer.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> Sorry, I stand by my post...Your attitude is very telling of your maturity level...I'd spend my $ with a much more mature trainer.


My attitude is just honest. I think the way my parents have raised me has made me more mature, if anything, since I've always had to do everything on my own or it wouldn't get done. I'm very independent and reliable because of it. Which I'm also grateful for I guess, but I would never raise a child the way they did. I just don't understand why you would expect me to be happy about them being crappy parents, that's all. I'm not going to pretend they did stuff that they didn't.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> My attitude is just honest. I think the way my parents have raised me has made me more mature, if anything, since I've always had to do everything on my own or it wouldn't get done. I'm very independent and reliable because of it. Which I'm also grateful for I guess, but I would never raise a child the way they did. I just don't understand why you would expect me to be happy about them being crappy parents, that's all. I'm not going to pretend they did stuff that they didn't.


I can't think of many 17 yr. olds who are happy with their parents...However it is very disrespectful of you to slam them...& I can't imagine that drug addicted, alcoholic parents have moeny to offer you to start a rescue.


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## Elocin (Jan 30, 2010)

Have you trained dogs other than your own? If you have and can get written recommendations you could possibly get a following. I'd suggest apprenticing under a well respected trainer or taking a trainer class, not just to expand your training knowledge but for the credentials. If you have something or someone standing behind you to prove that you are more than just a kid people might be more willing to hire you. It also might help if you offer a free demo/ consultation of your skills and how you train. 

Also, having insurance will be very helpful. You never know which people will turn out to be crazy. Another thing that might help you build up your name is to do some free training. If you train a dog for someone just to be nice (think little old lady) and you do a good job, word will spread and people will seek you out. That's how I got pet sitting jobs in high school. And I wouldn't charge people for training supplies. If you charge them too much they will take their money and go to a professional. Start small then go big. 

I wouldn't write you off because of your age although I might think "aw, a 17 year old wants to be a dog trainer, how cute!". Once upon a time a long time ago (well 7 years ago; geez I'm getting old) I was the 15 year old that did in home pet sitting for all of the neighbors. I woke up at 5:45 every morning to feed the neighbor's mastiff because she was afraid of me and didn't want to come out from under the table (eventually we became friends). I would sit there for 30 minutes with a dog biscuit, not looking in her direction until she came out, then we'd proceed to breakfast, then slowly to going outside. Then I'd leave for school at 7.

Just because you are a minor I would use the time until you turn 18 as resume building time. A good resume and recommendations are gold. You'll need them. Learn as much as you can about running a business, do stuff for free, volunteer, get to know people with dogs, make people know you, and as much as I hated working customer service I'd recommend doing it. I learned a lot from it and it'll get you used to working around a-holes

Like my English 101 teacher said "know your audience". Know what people want and give it to them.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> I can't think of many 17 yr. olds who are happy with their parents...However it is very disrespectful of you to slam them...& I can't imagine that drug addicted, alcoholic parents have moeny to offer you to start a rescue.


They have to have money to spend on booze and drugs, don't they? Celebrities have money and are addicted. Anyway, my dad built a company when I was young, and as a result has very good money. My mom is a secretary and her company invests money for her, so yes, they have problems AND money. 

I don't need to prove anything to you, to be frank. I won't ever be happy about what they've done to me, and you trying to change the fact that they did anything won't change it.



elocin said:


> Have you trained dogs other than your own? If you have and can get written recommendations you could possibly get a following. I'd suggest apprenticing under a well respected trainer or taking a trainer class, not just to expand your training knowledge but for the credentials. If you have something or someone standing behind you to prove that you are more than just a kid people might be more willing to hire you. It also might help if you offer a free demo/ consultation of your skills and how you train.
> 
> Also, having insurance will be very helpful. You never know which people will turn out to be crazy. Another thing that might help you build up your name is to do some free training. If you train a dog for someone just to be nice (think little old lady) and you do a good job, word will spread and people will seek you out. That's how I got pet sitting jobs in high school. And I wouldn't charge people for training supplies. If you charge them too much they will take their money and go to a professional. Start small then go big.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your advice. I have trained some family members dogs and friend's dogs. Maybe I'll see if they can recommend anyone they know that might benefit from some free training then?


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Cracker said:


> Why don't you see if there are trainers in your area looking for assistants? That's what I did (and still do). I know a few trainers that give classes that appreciate the help, though it's often not paid at first, and you can learn, grow and experience the different people and dogs. It's a great place to start.
> 
> If there is a trainer who's style and methods you like, even better.


Well, you beat me to it - that's just what I was going to suggest.

So let me expand on this a bit. The trainer that you *want* to work for during your trial period has to be GOOD. 

What does that mean? Well, first of all, he or she should have themselves worked under a nationally recognized trainer before they struck off on their own. Good trainers can trace back a lineage almost like a pedigree.

Second, they should have "made their bones". In other words, they should have put titles on dogs. Preferably lots of titles and more than a few dogs. A wallfull of placements and qualifiers isn't just to impress new clients - it has real meaning. Not because the titles, placements and qualifiers are the be-all and end-all, but because they are objective indications of success. Hint: it wouldn't hurt to get started on that aspect for yourself as well.


Trainers like this - who have walked the walk as well as talked the talk - are not necessarily going to be easy to find, but are worth the search. And even world-class trainers can use free help _that is willing to follow instructions_. 

I think you see where this is going. Becoming a trainer is not a short term proposition. You're going to "get your rep" as a dog trainer both by the experience of the trainer/trainers that _you have worked under_, and by the direct experience that_ you yourself _can bring to the table. 

There are other paths such as military/K9 dog training, entertainment industry animal wrangling, and the like, that you might want to look into if that's the line you want to take. 

Nothing against Petsmart and other pet training venues, but with all due respect to these folks, they aren't the major leagues of trainers. So shoot for the best you can.

Good luck and all wishes for your success.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Poly said:


> Well, you beat me to it - that's just what I was going to suggest.
> 
> So let me expand on this a bit. The trainer that you *want* to work for during your trial period has to be GOOD.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your advice. Unfortunately, I pretty much have two local trainers; I've emailed them both with no reply, but am waiting patiently, and don't know much about either, but they're my only options around here.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

spotted nikes said:


> I wouldn't hire a 17 yr old to train, or even do in-house petsitting, as I just don't think they have the maturity no matter how nice or smart they are. They just don't have the judgement/life experience to make some decisions.


FWIW at Age 17 I was running the hay crew for a horse farm (finding workers and in charge of stacking the hay in the barn.. which was no small feat). I was also left to run the farm for a month in January (with a race mare due to foal or who had just foaled) while the owners went south. I also had to do the commercial snow plow route. 

They DID leave two contacts I could get hold of it there were troubles (for advice for anything from plumbing to septic issues). I was competant and reliable.. and diligent. I do not believe I was exceptional. I was focused and followed the rules (no house guests, no partying etc... not that I did that anyway). 



> And I'm really sorry, but I just don't think you can count your family owning dogs while you were 6 yrs old until now(with you being 17 yrs old), as 11 years of training experience.


There is some truth to this. I actually helped my friends train THEIR dogs when I was 12-13 and on up. When I was 17 I was breaking and training horses.. for other people. It was a different year and a different era.. jus' sayin'



DJEtzel said:


> Thank you for your advice. Unfortunately, I pretty much have two local trainers; I've emailed them both with no reply, but am waiting patiently, and don't know much about either, but they're my only options around here.


Do not EMail if you REALLY want a job. WRITE them. Long hand if need be. Include your experience and tell them how you could help them acheive their goals as an assistant. EMail is a lazy way to go about it.. and if they do not have you on their accept list they may just dump the mail and not read it. 

If you REALLY want to do this, you need to make a serious effort.. offer to clean kennels or anything else that needs doing FOR FREE and the chance to learn. 

I admire your pluck. You need more years to be taken seriously. BTW keep track of your hours of training at the SPCA. Have someone sign off on those hours. You may want to be certified at some point and it all counts. 

I agree to titling a dog or two. I am working at titling my dog this year. It just proves you can get the job done. The more titles, the more difficult the titles, the more you 'grow' in the eyes of potential customers. Remember.. owning a business training dogs is not so much about training the dogs as it is selling yourself AND training dogs.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Do not EMail if you REALLY want a job. WRITE them. Long hand if need be. Include your experience and tell them how you could help them acheive their goals as an assistant. EMail is a lazy way to go about it.. and if they do not have you on their accept list they may just dump the mail and not read it.
> 
> If you REALLY want to do this, you need to make a serious effort.. offer to clean kennels or anything else that needs doing FOR FREE and the chance to learn.
> 
> ...


Neither of the places has kennels.. they just do training, so I would offer to do grunt work, but I'm not sure what it may be.. 

I'll try keeping track of my hours at the humane society from now on.. and I know they'd be more than happy to sign off on them. 

I didn't think about writing the trainers because both of them preferred to be emailed with questions and anything in regards to their training.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Write again. By hand. FWIW you were not contacting them about training. You were contacting them about working. Whole different ball of wax (worms.. string.. whatever). 

And if you do want to train on your own, find out the cost of business insurance and business liability insurance. When I had a business I had insurance and an additional $2million dollar liability rider. I think that was under $200 a year (for the additional rider). 

You may not be able to GET insurance because you are under 18.. so you may have to put it all on hold anyway. 

Do you think your Humane Society would let you offer a puppy class? No more than 6 puppies at a time? Just a thought. Of course, participants would be required to donate $40-$50 for a 6 week class to the shelter.


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## Purplex15 (May 28, 2007)

> I'm sorry you feel this way, about the petsitting anyway. I'm sure you'll just think I am like every other teenager thinking they're perfect, but I honestly think with my life experiences thus far that I could manage pet sitting for a few hours, days, or up to a week or two. I may only be 17 but in just a few months I'll be managing my own home and wouldn't discredit somebody doing the same just because of their age.


Something you need to understand is, that even though YOU are a responsible, independent teenager, does not mean that everyone else is. Generally speaking, a 17 year old has no where near the life experiance or maturity to handle something as involved and complicated as training dogs (or petsitting). I am in no way saying that You cant do it, but i understand why others have posted that they wouldnt hire a 17 year old. they dont know you personally, and can only go on generalities and their own experiance. My own experiance tells me, that even though i thought i was so mature and independent at 17 (which i was for a teen), i realize now (8 years later), that i wasnt as experianced or mature as i thought. Welsome to the real world! People will always discount you for your age. The key is proving them wrong, not getting upset or mad about it. I have a feeling that you will go through the same thing. Also, you have to expect that people wont hire you based things like experiance and youth. When it comes to dogs, experiance counts. And, anywhere i have worked, experiance with your own dogs does not count. Volunteering at the HS is a great start to getting some experiance with dogs other than your own. 

I know that training is your goal, but it wouldnt be a bad idea to call other dog related places. getting a job at a kennel, or grooming salon, would be beneficial. you can learn things about dog behavior, and handling. It is also probably easier to find a grunt work job at one of these places (which is unfortunatly probably the best you can do at your age). This will also give you more education on other aspects of dogs, that just focusing on training may limit you to. 

I also dont believe there are only 2 trainers in your area, b/c i know that a lot of good trainers dont advertise. search a little bit harder, go into dog places (stores, salons, etc) and ask about trainers around. if you really cant find anyone in your area, then you need to ventura out of your area. this is not something you should teach yourself.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Purplex15 said:


> Something you need to understand is, that even though YOU are a responsible, independent teenager, does not mean that everyone else is. Generally speaking, a 17 year old has no where near the life experiance or maturity to handle something as involved and complicated as training dogs (or petsitting). I am in no way saying that You cant do it, but i understand why others have posted that they wouldnt hire a 17 year old. they dont know you personally, and can only go on generalities and their own experiance. My own experiance tells me, that even though i thought i was so mature and independent at 17 (which i was for a teen), i realize now (8 years later), that i wasnt as experianced or mature as i thought. Welsome to the real world! People will always discount you for your age. The key is proving them wrong, not getting upset or mad about it. I have a feeling that you will go through the same thing. Also, you have to expect that people wont hire you based things like experiance and youth. When it comes to dogs, experiance counts. And, anywhere i have worked, experiance with your own dogs does not count. Volunteering at the HS is a great start to getting some experiance with dogs other than your own.
> 
> I know that training is your goal, but it wouldnt be a bad idea to call other dog related places. getting a job at a kennel, or grooming salon, would be beneficial. you can learn things about dog behavior, and handling. It is also probably easier to find a grunt work job at one of these places (which is unfortunatly probably the best you can do at your age). This will also give you more education on other aspects of dogs, that just focusing on training may limit you to.
> 
> I also dont believe there are only 2 trainers in your area, b/c i know that a lot of good trainers dont advertise. search a little bit harder, go into dog places (stores, salons, etc) and ask about trainers around. if you really cant find anyone in your area, then you need to ventura out of your area. this is not something you should teach yourself.


I've been following this thread with interest. The only thing I can offer the OP that hasn't been offered before is don't give up the journey to arrive at the destination ASAP. Getting there is half the fun. I agree with volunteering to do more at the humane society, and offering to help out in kennels, grooming shops, etc. Don't just email the trainers once. Bug them. Show them you're interested and gung-ho until you either get accepted or a flat-out "no, we don't want to deal with apprenticeship". If you get turned down, go somewhere else until you get what you're after.
Read. Read old dog training books, read the new ones, read the good and the bad. If you are one of the many who don't care for Cesar Milan, watch his show anyway. If you're going to be working with the general public and their dogs, you need to know what they're seeing/hearing, and be able to explain why it may or may not work. It's good that you're this passionate about wanting to be a trainer; IMO that's half the credentials. But like others have said, the more experience you can get under the guidance of someone who's been there, done that, the better. If you're working towards a CGC, great! But work towards more. There's a lot of difference between teaching JQP's dog loose leash walking and training a dog for his OTCh, but it's all about the laws of learning and science. 
Just think, when you're 37 you can say you've had over 20 years experience


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## Equinox (Nov 11, 2008)

Coming from a 16 year old with relatively limited experience in animal behavior and training, I wouldn't trust a 17 year old trainer, period. When it comes down to my dog and my money, I want to make sure I'm going the best and safest route and frankly, there is a likelier chance of me finding a trainer age 21+ who is responsible and qualified, compared to the chances of me finding a trainer 17 or 18 who would be able to offer the same quality of training and expertise. Statistically and logically, it's simply not a great decision. 

Don't take it the wrong way - in all honesty, if I didn't know myself, I wouldn't even hire me as a trainer, if that makes sense. There are, without a doubt, many mature, experienced, highly qualified teenagers who would be excellent dog trainers and are more mentally mature than many adults. I don't see myself as an experienced dog owner (as I am not), but my neighbors would trust me in a heartbeat to care for their dogs and train them for an extended amount of time. I have already agreed to house sit for one neighbor, who owns two German Shepherds. One is a senior, at 12 years old, and requires medication, while the other is a 7 month old puppy. But they don't look at me and see an irresponsible teenager, they see me as someone they already know and trust, someone who they have seen work and interact with dogs. 

But how many people know that about you? They don't know how good you are with dogs, how much patience you have, how much experience. They don't live next to you and see you everyday. For all they know, you are an average 17 year old looking for a few extra bucks and with nothing better to do. And even as a teenager myself, that's what I would think, too. 

You've gotten a lot of great suggestions already, and good luck to you.



> Personally I wouldn't hire a 17 yr. old , who calls their parents who have taken care of & supported them their whole life, deadbeats on a public forum to even scoop my dog poop!
> How ungrateful!


GypsyJazmine, practice what you preach. Don't scold someone else about their immaturity and then refuse to listen to the explanation and instead resort to such condescending posts.  It's unfair to judge someone in such a manner and not try to gain some insight into their life.

I'm a teenager living with my parents and contrary to what you may believe, my mom's one of my best friends and I have an extremely close relationship with my parents. I don't badmouth my parents (or at least, I rarely do!), but that doesn't mean I automatically assume that if someone else does, it's unjustified.


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## Jax (Feb 14, 2010)

This is a little off topic - and I don't have anything new to add as far as the original training question because I think it's been covered, but I too have been watching the thread, and a serious question to the OP:

If your parents are really that bad (and I'm not judging you at all and willing to believe that they are) do you really want to be financially beholden to them? If they give you the money to start up something like this, whether it is sooner or later, they will be even more closely involved in your life. You will have to answer to them. It WILL be their money and they will be able to play that card. Even if they assure you that it'll be completely your thing and they couldn't care less what you do ...as soon as things go bad at all or they want something that you don't or don;t think it's as profitable as it should be, these tend to be situations where this kind of thing goes sour. This is one of those "life experience" things - not only have I been IN the world of small business (which most of my degrees relate to, so it's definitely a career path) since I was about 15 and seen how many issues can arise in general, I've been through this with my parents several times, starting when I was around your age. They are not terrible, but even so, I never felt it was a good idea to use their money for this kind of thing. If the economy ever recovers I mgiht consider letting one of them give me an official loan and launching a business.. but that's the only way I would accept money from them, and if I didn't have a good relationship with them I don't even think I'd go for that.

I'm not trying to be at all condescending. I just wanted to make sure that you're aware that these kind of problems can arrise, and think about if you really want to be that closely tied to the parents that you don't seem to care much for.

Either way, I think you should follow your dream - as others said, realizing it's going to be a long process


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Elana55 said:


> Do you think your Humane Society would let you offer a puppy class? No more than 6 puppies at a time? Just a thought. Of course, participants would be required to donate $40-$50 for a 6 week class to the shelter.


This would be a GREAT idea that I will definitely look into. The girls at the humane society really seem to enjoy what I do there and such, so I will ask about it, perhaps in a little while, since I did get an email reply today from the trainer that the Humane Society recommends and that lives nearby telling me that she'd been wanting an apprentice/assistant type person and would love for my help. We're setting up a meeting in the next few weeks with me and my dogs so that she can see what I do and how I do it. 



jax said:


> This is a little off topic - and I don't have anything new to add as far as the original training question because I think it's been covered, but I too have been watching the thread, and a serious question to the OP:
> 
> If your parents are really that bad (and I'm not judging you at all and willing to believe that they are) do you really want to be financially beholden to them? If they give you the money to start up something like this, whether it is sooner or later, they will be even more closely involved in your life. You will have to answer to them. It WILL be their money and they will be able to play that card. Even if they assure you that it'll be completely your thing and they couldn't care less what you do ...as soon as things go bad at all or they want something that you don't or don;t think it's as profitable as it should be, these tend to be situations where this kind of thing goes sour. This is one of those "life experience" things - not only have I been IN the world of small business (which most of my degrees relate to, so it's definitely a career path) since I was about 15 and seen how many issues can arise in general, I've been through this with my parents several times, starting when I was around your age. They are not terrible, but even so, I never felt it was a good idea to use their money for this kind of thing. If the economy ever recovers I mgiht consider letting one of them give me an official loan and launching a business.. but that's the only way I would accept money from them, and if I didn't have a good relationship with them I don't even think I'd go for that.
> 
> ...


TBH, I never thought of problems arising from this. They're so cut off from any activity in my life I just assumed they wouldn't want to be involved in this either, but I definitely agree with the things you say could happen. I don't have any intentions of setting up this rescue any time soon now, so it shouldn't be an issue any longer. Thank you for the insight though.

Thank everyone else too, you all made very good points and offered VERY good advice. I appreciate it.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

DJ I would love to see a video 

I think you are a very smart person for your age. If you believe in something it will happen. Success begins with the will... Everyone has alot of learning to do..Im 41 and I still learn everyday. The things people said that I would fail at, I have succeeded beyond what anyone could imagine. Dont ever cut yourself short and keep on truckin


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

Equinox said:


> .
> 
> I'm a teenager living with my parents and contrary to what you may believe, my mom's one of my best friends and I have an extremely close relationship with my parents. I don't badmouth my parents (or at least, I rarely do!), but that doesn't mean I automatically assume that if someone else does, it's unjustified.


I lived with my mom until I was 24, we basically had a roommate relationship  My mom and I are pretty much best friends and we too are very close. I know it doesn't always happen that way with everyone and their parents, so I consider myself lucky and wish those without that relationship all the best. 
As far as the dog training goes, I think offering puppy classes at the HS would be excellent, especially if someone adopts a pup from said shelter. My schools' puppy classes are ALWAYS jam-packed, the demand is growing.


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## Elocin (Jan 30, 2010)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> I've been following this thread with interest. The only thing I can offer the OP that hasn't been offered before is don't give up the journey to arrive at the destination ASAP. Getting there is half the fun.


very good advice I wish I could put it into use


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

digits mama said:


> DJ I would love to see a video
> 
> I think you are a very smart person for your age. If you believe in something it will happen. Success begins with the will... Everyone has alot of learning to do..Im 41 and I still learn everyday. The things people said that I would fail at, I have succeeded beyond what anyone could imagine. Dont ever cut yourself short and keep on truckin


Thanks.  What should my video be of, exactly? I've never made a training video before.. Should I focus on one thing, or just record my normal training sessions with Frag?



LazyGRanch713 said:


> As far as the dog training goes, I think offering puppy classes at the HS would be excellent, especially if someone adopts a pup from said shelter. My schools' puppy classes are ALWAYS jam-packed, the demand is growing.


I think it'd be a great idea too, I'm just worried about where I could hold it at.. and the interest in people actually coming to learn (a lot of the people that go there that I see asking questions about adopting know nothing about dogs and shouldn't be getting them in the first place). But I'll definitely ask about it.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Equinox said:


> GypsyJazmine, practice what you preach. Don't scold someone else about their immaturity and then refuse to listen to the explanation and instead resort to such condescending posts.  It's unfair to judge someone in such a manner and not try to gain some insight into their life.
> 
> I'm a teenager living with my parents and contrary to what you may believe, my mom's one of my best friends and I have an extremely close relationship with my parents. I don't badmouth my parents (or at least, I rarely do!), but that doesn't mean I automatically assume that if someone else does, it's unjustified.


Besides being publicly disrespectful to her parents it is very unproffesional to badmouth ANYONE on a public internet forum...Sorry, not someone I would choose to take instruction from.


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## surftb15 (Dec 23, 2009)

This is an interesting thread....17 is too young. Work at Abercrombie or something. Experience means everything.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Record a normal training session. Even if it is just for fun! Noone here can help you become what you want to be. But I know plenty of people here can help you with adjustments and with new tricks of the trade. Be proactive in the positive advice given here too. Any little bit helps


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> Besides being publicly disrespectful to her parents it is very unproffesional to badmouth ANYONE on a public internet forum...Sorry, not someone I would choose to take instruction from.


It's not like I would be badmouthing my parents if they actually acted like parents anyway. And my personal life and experiences/feelings towards them have NOTHING to do with my professional life. 



surftb15 said:


> This is an interesting thread....17 is too young. Work at Abercrombie or something. Experience means everything.


I wouldn't work at Abercrombie if I could.. and I can't BECAUSE I'm 17, remember? 



digits mama said:


> Record a normal training session. Even if it is just for fun! Noone here can help you become what you want to be. But I know plenty of people here can help you with adjustments and with new tricks of the trade. Be proactive in the positive advice given here too. Any little bit helps


Alright. Thanks. I'll try to record a session today and upload it.


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## ara28 (Feb 18, 2008)

To the OP, I'm not sure about you in particular, but what I can tell you was the first training class I ever took with my dog was at PetSmart. Our trainer was a senior in high school (so 17 or 18) I forget exactly how old she was. She was good at teaching us the basics and I really enjoyed learning from her. Before taking her class I had absolutely no concept of teaching my dog how to sit. Then she went away to college. But, because of being introduced to training through our young trainer, my dog and I continued training else where and went on to get his CGC and we started agility as well. When I started looking for a new trainer, because ours went away to college, she helped me pick a place to take classes at. I'm still in contact with her. She's currently a sophomore in college working towards becoming a veterinarian. 

If I would have been a more experienced dog owner and had previously worked with a trainer then sure, I'd be apprehensive about working with a young trainer, but that wasn't the case for me.

I'm glad that my dog and I were introduced to training through the young trainer at petsmart. It turned out to be a really good experience.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

If the trainers that you want to apprentice under don't call you back or don't say yes, how about enrolling in one of their classes and let them see you work your dog and learn about their training methods? If you haven't taken dog classes before, it might make sense to take a few before jumping to apprenticeship.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

ara28 said:


> To the OP, I'm not sure about you in particular, but what I can tell you was the first training class I ever took with my dog was at PetSmart. Our trainer was a senior in high school (so 17 or 18) I forget exactly how old she was. She was good at teaching us the basics and I really enjoyed learning from her. Before taking her class I had absolutely no concept of teaching my dog how to sit. Then she went away to college. But, because of being introduced to training through our young trainer, my dog and I continued training else where and went on to get his CGC and we started agility as well. When I started looking for a new trainer, because ours went away to college, she helped me pick a place to take classes at. I'm still in contact with her. She's currently a sophomore in college working towards becoming a veterinarian.
> 
> If I would have been a more experienced dog owner and had previously worked with a trainer then sure, I'd be apprehensive about working with a young trainer, but that wasn't the case for me.
> 
> I'm glad that my dog and I were introduced to training through the young trainer at petsmart. It turned out to be a really good experience.


That's a really good experience, and I'm glad you had it. I hope I can do the same for people some day soon.



trainingjunkie said:


> If the trainers that you want to apprentice under don't call you back or don't say yes, how about enrolling in one of their classes and let them see you work your dog and learn about their training methods? If you haven't taken dog classes before, it might make sense to take a few before jumping to apprenticeship.


I thought I posted about it, but maybe you missed it or I posted it elsewhere; but a trainer did email me back last night as said she was very interested in having an assitant and was wanting to look for one anyway. We are going to meet in the next week and she wants me to bring Frag along to show what I know/can do, have taught, etc. I'm super excited for it.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

The one thing I wonder about after reading this thread, is have you ever taken a dog to a regular obedience class or have you just been training on your own? Perhaps it was mentioned and I missed it.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Kyllobernese said:


> The one thing I wonder about after reading this thread, is have you ever taken a dog to a regular obedience class or have you just been training on your own? Perhaps it was mentioned and I missed it.


No, i haven't. i've never really needed to or had the money before.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Thanks.  What should my video be of, exactly? I've never made a training video before.. Should I focus on one thing, or just record my normal training sessions with Frag?
> 
> 
> 
> I think it'd be a great idea too, I'm just worried about where I could hold it at.. and the interest in people actually coming to learn (a lot of the people that go there that I see asking questions about adopting know nothing about dogs and shouldn't be getting them in the first place). But I'll definitely ask about it.


I would record a regular training session, and then again and again. I thought I was a pretty good handler in rally until my friend videotaped one of my runs with Dude and I thought "who IS that idiot out there and WTH is she DOING?!"  No wonder my dog was confused, lol!
I would honestly save the money and enroll in a good basic class with Frag, just to get the experience in a class setting. Auz aced basic class his first time around, and he's been in that class so many times he could do it backwards, blindfolded, and standing on his head 
You might even consider putting an ad in the newpaper, stating you are wanting a trainer to apprentice under. Keep an eye out on classifieds on the internet in your area, too. Google trainers. Watch training videos. Just get in there and learn, and keep an open mind. If someone would have told me 10 years ago I would have been training my dogs to back up, high five, and run an agility course I would have rolled my eyes


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## tsc (Dec 7, 2009)

Nope, sorry. I want someone with 17+ years of experience with training, not just with life 

I also don't get how in one of the earliest posts you cite your parents breeding/having dogs as your dog experience, but then go on to tell everyone that they're total flakes and terrible people. That doesn't really say anything good about your experience.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I think it's very helpful to take several classes under several trainers to help you learn what you like/don't like and to learn how classes work. I don't think I could have taught a class if I hadn't ever taken one. I wouldn't know what people expect or how to keep the class flowing or how to manage safety...

What is your training style? Do you use reinforcers? Corrections?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

tsc said:


> Nope, sorry. I want someone with 17+ years of experience with training, not just with life
> 
> I also don't get how in one of the earliest posts you cite your parents breeding/having dogs as your dog experience, but then go on to tell everyone that they're total flakes and terrible people. That doesn't really say anything good about your experience.


They aren't good people. they were bybs and the dogs were mixes. no health tests, etc. they didn't abuse the dogs though and knew enough about dogs to manage them. it was an experience, and i did grow up with dogs, they just weren't what they should have been i guess you'd say.

my training method is positive reinforcement with whatever motivates the dog best; affection, toys, or food with minimal correction; only for pulling on leash and going after cats.

i definitely am going to take some classes that i know Frag will succeed at for the experience for both of us, then hopefully get into some more advanced classes. i'm just saving money now.

on a lighter note, i gave some great advice to a lady at the shelter today in regards for what types of dogs we had that would suit her best, then training info, crate training, housebreaking, and exercise. she said she'd really like me to help her with stuff if she gets the puppy she was looking at.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

I have to tell you again how horribly unprofessional bad mouthing your parents looks...If you want to be a professional dog trainer then you must act professional at all times!
Do you live under your parents roof?...I wonder what they would think if they read all of this?
eta: Have you ever had a job even?


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> I have to tell you again how horribly unprofessional bad mouthing your parents looks...If you want to be a professional dog trainer then you must act professional at all times!
> Do you live under your parents roof?...I wonder what they would think if they read all of this?
> eta: Have you ever had a job even?


Yes, I sleep at my parent's house a few nights a week, and I work at a construction company during the summer and when I have time during the school year.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Mkay, well, anyway... I didn't get a chance to take a video of training yesterday because Frag was sick and today I'm sick. Hopefull I'll get it done tomorrow and upload it.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Guh, of course, the only video I could get today was about 20 seconds long; and then my camera died. I didn't have a charger at my boyfriend's house so I couldn't do more, but I figured I'd upload this short video at least as SOMETHING until I can get more. 

If I don't get many responses, I'll probably make a new thread for constructive criticism. Please pardon the clothes and dirty dog. I trashed the clothes I wore at the dog park this morning, and Frag trashed his coat. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptyo3yl1zvQ&feature=player_embedded


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

I'm not sure what kind of criticism you are looking for. Is the dog still being trained in the basics? There's a lot of luring going on. You are using some really wide hand motions for the signals and luring with them. You use your upper body a lot as part of your cue (leaning towards him in a down, leaning to your side as he rolls, luring with your hand).

You're also not using the proper hand signals for the commands. It's not a big deal for the everyday owner, but for competitive obedience it's critical.

That's just off the top of my head.


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## moluno (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm by no means any expert, but I think my only criticism would be that you get the treat ready in your hand before giving commands. A lot of dogs will then learn not to obey if they don't see the treat in the hand.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

Ho-hum.
You are not a "trainer" I'd spend money on..Sorry.


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## nneessaa (Feb 18, 2010)

I'm of no help, but I think Frag is absolutely adorable . He looks well trained to me, but it does seem like you don't have set hand signals (just where you hold the treat). Maybe I couldn't see them, though. I think you will do well working with the trainer and working at Petsmart. Are you doing both?

(I am not a professional trainer in any way! Just thought I'd throw that out there )


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## nneessaa (Feb 18, 2010)

moluno said:


> I'm by no means any expert, but I think my only criticism would be that you get the treat ready in your hand before giving commands. A lot of dogs will then learn not to obey if they don't see the treat in the hand.


I agree with this as well. If you have a word to mark the behavior like "yes" then you should have no need to have the treat in your hand. I use a clicker since I find it easier, but I figure you use a word. I should go back and watch it with higher volume...


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RBark said:


> I'm not sure what kind of criticism you are looking for. Is the dog still being trained in the basics? There's a lot of luring going on. You are using some really wide hand motions for the signals and luring with them. You use your upper body a lot as part of your cue (leaning towards him in a down, leaning to your side as he rolls, luring with your hand).
> 
> You're also not using the proper hand signals for the commands. It's not a big deal for the everyday owner, but for competitive obedience it's critical.
> 
> That's just off the top of my head.


No, he's not being trained in basics. I usually lure a lot during training sessions to make them quick, get the desired behaviour, and reward. Should I NOT being doing this. These are things I'd like help with. He doesn't need the luring to do almost any commands, with the exception of Bang. This is still a work in progress. Sometimes he does it as soon as I shoot him a finger, and sometimes I have to lure.

I never intended to do competitive obedience, so I never learned the "correct" hand signals.



moluno said:


> I'm by no means any expert, but I think my only criticism would be that you get the treat ready in your hand before giving commands. A lot of dogs will then learn not to obey if they don't see the treat in the hand.


To be fair, I DON'T do this all the time. Sometimes I sparatically treat and often times when we're around the house I call commands when he doesn't know I have treats at all. This is a good point I'll keep my eye on though. I also switch up the reward between verbal praise, food, and toys.



GypsyJazmine said:


> Ho-hum.
> You are not a "trainer" I'd spend money on..Sorry.


Care to enlighten me as to why? I can't fix my mistakes if I'm not aware of them.



nneessaa said:


> I'm of no help, but I think Frag is absolutely adorable . He looks well trained to me, but it does seem like you don't have set hand signals (just where you hold the treat). Maybe I couldn't see them, though. I think you will do well working with the trainer and working at Petsmart. Are you doing both?
> 
> (I am not a professional trainer in any way! Just thought I'd throw that out there )


Thank you.  And you're right, I don't really have set hand signals. When we're in public and I'm not using treats, I don't use hand signals at all, and I'll admit that I don't understand why they're necessary all the time.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

You're a one trick pony sweetheart...You think you're good because it took you so darn long to get to where you are...But that is because you started from nowhere.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

I think I'm good because I get the results I want when I ask for them. And It really hasn't taken me long at all to get to where I am.. And explain how I started from nowhere please?


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

DJEtzel said:


> No, he's not being trained in basics. I usually lure a lot during training sessions to make them quick, get the desired behaviour, and reward. Should I NOT being doing this. These are things I'd like help with. He doesn't need the luring to do almost any commands, with the exception of Bang. This is still a work in progress. Sometimes he does it as soon as I shoot him a finger, and sometimes I have to lure.


Luring is probably the easiest way to train basics if you're teaching others. It's more intuitive to most owners. That said, they should be phased from the lure at some point. Usually the lure is similar to the hand signal, and you slowly make the signal smaller and smaller. For instance, the sign for down is a flat hand motioned downward. You train the lure by holding the treat to the nose, and luring them into a down. Slowly you make that motion smaller, and smaller, until it's just a short, quick motion.



> I never intended to do competitive obedience, so I never learned the "correct" hand signals.


For a professional trainer I would expect that they know all the proper signals, even if they are not going to do advanced obedience. The reason for this being that some people may or may not decide to continue their obedience beyond basics. If they are not taught the universal signs for obedience, it will hinder any future progress they may have by requiring them to take a dozen step backs to re-train all the cues into the proper cue. That is not fair to the owners, even if they might not plan on doing advanced obedience at the time.



> To be fair, I DON'T do this all the time. Sometimes I sparatically treat and often times when we're around the house I call commands when he doesn't know I have treats at all. This is a good point I'll keep my eye on though. I also switch up the reward between verbal praise, food, and toys.


The reward is whatever works. Switching it up is not needed if the others are not as reinforcing. If all three work for your dog equally, that's great. With many dogs though, many people misjudge what is most reinforcing to their dog. For many dogs, praise has no value whatsoever. I've seen people praise their dogs while their dog was completely fixed on the tennis ball they were holding. 

That said, while your dog might follow cue regardless of whether you have a treat or not, that is not necessarily true for the people you train. For instance, Priscilla (my GSD) did not follow my cues when I was not holding the treat bag on the side of my waist (noticed you used one too). As such, I had to carry treats in my pockets to keep her guessing. The goal should be to be able to get them to work harder for intermittent rewards.







> Thank you.  And you're right, I don't really have set hand signals. When we're in public and I'm not using treats, I don't use hand signals at all, and I'll admit that I don't understand why they're necessary all the time.


It doesn't quite matter what your preference is, hand or verbal. Ideally they should be trained to respond to both. Partly for future obedience. Some people do better with hand signals, for instance, because they sound like a drill sergeant when they give a cue to their dog. It removes their tone. There are many reasons for both, ultimately it's the trainer's job to teach both and let the owner pick their preferred method.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

Great video! Im glad you posted.. Keep your mind open and I think you will be off to a great start! Gotta start somewhere! Cant wait to see you progress.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RBark said:


> Luring is probably the easiest way to train basics if you're teaching others. It's more intuitive to most owners. That said, they should be phased from the lure at some point. Usually the lure is similar to the hand signal, and you slowly make the signal smaller and smaller. For instance, the sign for down is a flat hand motioned downward. You train the lure by holding the treat to the nose, and luring them into a down. Slowly you make that motion smaller, and smaller, until it's just a short, quick motion.
> 
> *While I do phase the lure, I suppose I regress by going back to it during training sessions then, correct? *
> 
> ...


Thank you for this post, I think it may have been one of the most helping. 

Also, I did pick up a book this weekend. I couldn't find ANY training books that were recommended, but I did get the other end of the leash because I've heard it recommended many times to others. So far, so good.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

digits mama said:


> Great video! Im glad you posted.. Keep your mind open and I think you will be off to a great start! Gotta start somewhere! Cant wait to see you progress.


Thank you for the encouragement.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh, I'm glad you got The Other End of the Leash! I was going to recommend it. She talks about verbal cues and hand signals in there and explains why the hand signals are important. It's a really interesting, informative book and I wish every dog owner would read it!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> Oh, I'm glad you got The Other End of the Leash! I was going to recommend it. She talks about verbal cues and hand signals in there and explains why the hand signals are important. It's a really interesting, informative book and I wish every dog owner would read it!


Awesome. It definitely seems more informative and in depth that I thought it was going to be, which I'm thankful for. I hate wasting my money on things I can't actually use or don't need, but I think this will come in handy, though I've only gotten through a dozen pages so far. I need some free time.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> I think I'm good because I get the results I want when I ask for them. And It really hasn't taken me long at all to get to where I am.. And explain how I started from nowhere please?


You're right...I don't know how long it has taken you to achieve the degree of training knowledge that you have...As far as starting from nowhere you've taken no classes, have had no formal instruction, etc...The best trainers that I know still take classes & take instruction from other trainers so as to keep on top of training methods.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

> While I do phase the lure, I suppose I regress by going back to it during training sessions then, correct?


Yep that's correct. 

Learning how to train is a lot of work. I am sure there's a time and place for trainers that only really do the basics. For one thing, they are likely cheaper. This post is not meant as a knock, so I hope it's not interpreted as such.

But training, as Gypsy said, is a lifelong process. There is no "end", grand finale where you are done learning or know all there is to know about it. At 17, I would say you are just barely starting to learn how to train, let alone be a trainer. It's not a matter of intelligence or responsibility, but at 17, a person can simply not have the experience I would desire from a trainer.

It's a long process to be a good one. While I have more knowledge than I'd ever really need, most likely, I have very little to show for it. I can clicker train most dogs to do just about anything, but I have not had to overcome varying challenges of individual dogs. And it's not for lack of experience, I've fostered 3 dogs and had 3 of my own, and I've helped people with training issues at the rescue I volunteer at frequently.

I think myself to be intelligent enough to competently overcome most training challenges with the knowledge I have, and I think I'm a decent trainer. But I would not consider myself good enough to be paid for my skills. Not at least until I've at least proven my training methods in competition. Be it Agility, Rally, Obedience, Schutzhund, or Herding.

I would not consider myself competent enough to train others in puppy stuff until I've raised a puppy myself to at least CDX title in AKC, and having taken many classes doing so. There's only so much you can learn without having someone there pointing out your mistakes.

A lot of rambling but just my two cents.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

For trainers in our area it is normal for them to have put a dog through to at least his C.D. (companion dog) or preferabley C.D.X. (companion dog excellent) before teaching a training class. I know that is not absolutely necessary but at least then you know the trainer knows how to train a dog properly. It does not always make them a good trainer of people and that is what you are doing when you teach a training class. You are not training the dogs, you are training the people how to train their dogs. (which is sometimes harder to do).


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

GypsyJazmine said:


> You're right...I don't know how long it has taken you to achieve the degree of training knowledge that you have...As far as starting from nowhere you've taken no classes, have had no formal instruction, etc...The best trainers that I know still take classes & take instruction from other trainers so as to keep on top of training methods.


You've seen me state the fact that I will be taking classes, etc though. It's not like I'm not trying to further my knowledge. The only reason I haven't so far is because of money. My parents think it's stupid and won't give me money for it, so I have to save my own.



RBark said:


> Yep that's correct.
> 
> Learning how to train is a lot of work. I am sure there's a time and place for trainers that only really do the basics. For one thing, they are likely cheaper. This post is not meant as a knock, so I hope it's not interpreted as such.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your opinion. I appreciate it, and am going to be working towards agility this spring, so hopefully I'll be learning a lot more and will be on the right track.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

If you don't have money to put your dog through classes, why don't you go to various training facilities and watch the classes. You can learn a lot by watching and it does not cost you anything. You can get a better idea of different ways to train dogs, the problems some people have and how it was corrected.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

RBark said:


> The reward is whatever works. Switching it up is not needed if the others are not as reinforcing. If all three work for your dog equally, that's great. With many dogs though, many people misjudge what is most reinforcing to their dog. For many dogs, praise has no value whatsoever. I've seen people praise their dogs while their dog was completely fixed on the tennis ball they were holding.



Very true. I had Tags favorite toy (a latex pretzel he got the day after he arrived) in my hand. He did something clickable, so I clicked and threw the toy. He watched the toy fly, turned towards me and did his vertical leap he does when he's earned some food. The toy didn't work for him. Food does. He finds exaggerated praise rewarding for about 1/2 second. If I try to use pets and "good boys", he almost finds it aversive after a few seconds. Not good. 
I like having a dog so highly food motivated. He can take his food, swallow it, and get back to work. Praise and toys "break up" the training period, and it's easier for some dogs (IMO to lose concentration). Plus, chasing toys (and lots of praise) is kind of an "adrenaline" rush for a lot of dogs, and it can take them a few seconds to calm down and get back to what they're doing.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

LazyGRanch713 said:


> Very true. I had Tags favorite toy (a latex pretzel he got the day after he arrived) in my hand. He did something clickable, so I clicked and threw the toy. He watched the toy fly, turned towards me and did his vertical leap he does when he's earned some food. The toy didn't work for him. Food does. He finds exaggerated praise rewarding for about 1/2 second. If I try to use pets and "good boys", he almost finds it aversive after a few seconds. Not good.
> I like having a dog so highly food motivated. He can take his food, swallow it, and get back to work. Praise and toys "break up" the training period, and it's easier for some dogs (IMO to lose concentration). Plus, chasing toys (and lots of praise) is kind of an "adrenaline" rush for a lot of dogs, and it can take them a few seconds to calm down and get back to what they're doing.


Frag is starting to do this with praise lately. It's only started these last few weeks, but if I praise him verbally he thinks it's a release and gets all wound up. 

Would there be any adverse affects to starting clicker training after so much work has been put in without it? I've been researching it a lot lately as I didn't know much about it, and would like to give it a try.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Frag is starting to do this with praise lately. It's only started these last few weeks, but if I praise him verbally he thinks it's a release and gets all wound up.
> 
> Would there be any adverse affects to starting clicker training after so much work has been put in without it? I've been researching it a lot lately as I didn't know much about it, and would like to give it a try.


I trained Dude for his first three years using J&P (jerk and praise). I started clicker training him when he was 3, and was able to teach so much more. And what he already knew, got better. Best part was, his whole demeanor that I thought was "fine" got so much better, sparkier, and happier. My friend let me borrow an agility tunnel for Tag, Dude was petrified of it (it's lightweight and rolls & moves when a dog is inside of it, Tag doesn't care lol). 5 minutes of the clicker and some sliced hotdogs had him barreling through it. I don't know if the results with other crossover dogs are as good as his, but I am way more than just "impressed", I am elated with the results


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Wow. I think I may very well pick up a clicker today and load my brain full of some more clicker training articles and videos this evening.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

Clicker training has a learning curve to it. It takes a good while before it really "clicks" (no pun intended).

One of the better exercises for clicker training is the "Go to mat" exercise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTvkTHJhlKU

That's a video of Priscilla doing mat exercises. Some people use clickers in combination with luring, which is fine. I do mostly shaping.

Basically there are no lures. I put the mat on the ground, and wait patiently. Eventually Pris put one paw on the mat. I clicked that, and tossed the treat to the side (to reset the exercise). I continued to click her for putting one paw on the pad until she was doing it reliably.

Then I required two paws on the mat. Slowly building it up to four paws. Then I started clicking her for having 4 paws on the mat + moving her butt downwards even an half inch. Slowly tightened the criteria to sitting down on the mat. Then eventually a down. At this point, I still have not added the cue. (This point is the same point on the video. She's doing downs on the mat but no verbal or hand cue).

After she does it reliably I start adding the cue once she does the behavior. Then I start increasing the time between the behavior occurring and her performing it. i.e. the cue is given the exact time she goes into a down on the mat. Then slowly the cue is given before she touches the mat, and so on.

It's slow and tedious but a good way to start teaching them how to offer behaviors for clicker shaping. Priscilla was a puppy but I have done this with dogs as old as 12. So it's very doable.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

RBark said:


> Clicker training has a learning curve to it. It takes a good while before it really "clicks" (no pun intended).
> 
> One of the better exercises for clicker training is the "Go to mat" exercise.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the video. I think I'm picking up clicker training a lot more now. Couldn't get to town to get a clicker today, but I will tomorrow, and I'll start working with it. 

I do have a question though; once you add in a cue, do you say it at the same time as the click, before, or after? I've got the click during the action thing down, and then elogating it, but I'm not sure when I should say the cue in regards to the click.


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## RBark (Sep 10, 2007)

The click happens when the desired behavior is completed, regardless of when the cue is given. When you start adding in the cue, you will be clicking and saying the cue at the same time (as you give the cue at the same time as the behavior is completed). Eventually you will say the cue a little while before you give a click. (i.e. Say down, and wait for the pup to go into a down, then click once the down is completed)


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Gotcha. Makes sense, thank you.


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## nneessaa (Feb 18, 2010)

Kikopup on Youtube has a lot of good videos on clicker training. I found her from the link RBark gave (it was under related videos). The videos might be of use to somebody!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks nneessaa, I'm subscribed to her, but didn't even think about looking. I'm very interested in ANY good clicker videos I can watch at this point. 

Another question; I know you click at the time of the desired behavior, not after, but if you're going for duration, like waiting for Priscilla to be on the mat, would you wait for her to lay down, then wait a few seconds, and then click and treat?


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I am thrilled that you are taking this opportunity to learn so much. However, if you were training right now, people would be asking you for these answers and trusting that what you said was golden. This is why having some miles behind you is so helpful. 

Enjoy the journey. Pace yourself. Find a trainer and let THEM lead YOU. It's very easy to want to show all that you know, but you will learn more when you are open to letting someone else show YOU what THEY know. I got a whole lot smarter when I stopped trying to impress people.

Keep having fun.


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## sizzledog (Nov 23, 2008)

GreatDaneMom said:


> see this is strange to me. why do they have to have competed? if youre just teaching regular basic obedience to people who are not looking to compete, then why is this an issue? some people, even trainers, are just not interested in competing....
> 
> also to be APDT/CCPDT cert. you need to have a certain amount of hours broke up between either assisting a trainer/working at a shelter training/ heading your own classes/ doing private lessons, etc. so if you would never hire someone who wasnt cert. in either of these....well... sorry but people have to start somewhere. i think its 300 hours they have to have atleast. so if no one ever gives these people a chance, then where are we ever going to see new trainers come from?


For me... it's the same reason why I got my dogs from responsible breeders instead of BYBs.

Yes, people have to start somewhere. The trainers at the club that I'm a member of started... at the bottom. Taking public classes. Then they started *assisting* with public classes. Eventually they'd seen enough dogs and had enough experience to start teaching classes with another trainer... and eventually by themselves - with their own assistants.

These things take time - I want a trainer who has paid their dues, and has been successful in the venues they're training. JMHO.


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## nneessaa (Feb 18, 2010)

DJEtzel said:


> Thanks nneessaa, I'm subscribed to her, but didn't even think about looking. I'm very interested in ANY good clicker videos I can watch at this point.
> 
> Another question; I know you click at the time of the desired behavior, not after, but if you're going for duration, like waiting for Priscilla to be on the mat, would you wait for her to lay down, then wait a few seconds, and then click and treat?


Ok, like I said before I'm not a dog trainer... but I have input about this and questions as well. Today I've started working on what I learned from positive reinforcement today. I realized I have been saying no and eh-eh for leave it, when I do not want to be intimidating him. So, I've been teaching two things. First, the sit means sit-stay and down means down-stay until I release, and also that when I throw food around him he is to leave it without me saying leave it.

My point is... I initially click and treat when I say sit and he sits, and then I throw a treat, move around, mess with something, etc and then click and treat (given that he doesn't move). This way, it is reinforcing the sit as well as making the sit last longer (so this would be duration). Then I say OK! and he stands and I click and treat. My goal is to be able to have him sit until I release him every time. I assume for duration you can do the initial click and then wait a minute or however long and click again. I'm unsure if the initial click and treat is needed.

I have a question. A couple of times during his sit he laid down. I didn't do anything I just put him back in a sit. Does this mean I am going to fast? I think it is a bit confusing for him since I have always used sit-stay.

This thread has turned into training advice, but hey, whatever works. I'd like some input on if I am doing this correctly or not. Also if anyone has any good videos on clicker training I would love to watch more. I do not want to be a dog trainer, since I have been trying to house train my Yorkie for a year, so I don't think I'd make a good trainer! LOL . It has been 1 month since his last accident, wish us luck!!


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

trainingjunkie said:


> I am thrilled that you are taking this opportunity to learn so much. However, if you were training right now, people would be asking you for these answers and trusting that what you said was golden. This is why having some miles behind you is so helpful.
> 
> Enjoy the journey. Pace yourself. Find a trainer and let THEM lead YOU. It's very easy to want to show all that you know, but you will learn more when you are open to letting someone else show YOU what THEY know. I got a whole lot smarter when I stopped trying to impress people.
> 
> Keep having fun.


I realize that, and I have no problem admitting that I knew NOTHING about clicker training. I would not have been able to answer any questions pertaining to that, and I'm glad it came up, because I definitely feel this is going to expand my views a lot more, and help too. 



nneessaa said:


> Ok, like I said before I'm not a dog trainer... but I have input about this and questions as well. Today I've started working on what I learned from positive reinforcement today. I realized I have been saying no and eh-eh for leave it, when I do not want to be intimidating him. So, I've been teaching two things. First, the sit means sit-stay and down means down-stay until I release, and also that when I throw food around him he is to leave it without me saying leave it.
> 
> My point is... I initially click and treat when I say sit and he sits, and then I throw a treat, move around, mess with something, etc and then click and treat (given that he doesn't move). This way, it is reinforcing the sit as well as making the sit last longer (so this would be duration). Then I say OK! and he stands and I click and treat. My goal is to be able to have him sit until I release him every time. I assume for duration you can do the initial click and then wait a minute or however long and click again. I'm unsure if the initial click and treat is needed.
> 
> ...


I can't answer any of your questions, but nothing you're doing sounds completely wrong if that helps. 

And hey, I'm glad this turned into something productive; for me and others. I am grateful for everyone's opinions in the first place, but elaborating and helping me learn more is even better as far as I am concerned. 

Good luck on the housetraining, sounds like it's going good so far!


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Thanks nneessaa, I'm subscribed to her, but didn't even think about looking. I'm very interested in ANY good clicker videos I can watch at this point.
> 
> Another question; I know you click at the time of the desired behavior, not after, but if you're going for duration, like waiting for Priscilla to be on the mat, would you wait for her to lay down, then wait a few seconds, and then click and treat?


I would start out with clicking for one paw on the mat. Then 2 paws. Then 3, then all four, then a down, etc. I would start waiting about 1/2 second, click, wait 1 second, click, 2 seconds, click. Build from there. Don't move onto 3 seconds if she can't make it for 2 seconds. 
The thing is, if you do a lot of free shaping and the dog understands that offering new ideas (such as all 4 on the mat) might earn a click, they're going to catch on faster. Free shaping was very difficult with Dude at first, but he's gradually becoming much more willing to offer new things. Even if it's not what I want, I usually click anyway and we go from there. I wanted Dude to learn to stand on a board I had in my living room. We started shaping it, and he came up with running over, slapping his paws on it, dropping into a playbow and looking at me. Much cuter than simply 4 paws on the board. 
If I'm asking my dog to do something they're unsure about (such as Tag and the teeter), I build my duration much, much more slowly, and always give them the oppourtunity to bail out. We spent 2 solid weeks with Tag on simply being clicked for tapping the teeter with his paw. Eventually he got brave enough to put all 4 on. A week later he got brave enough to go halfway up and sit, we'd click, and then turn him around and walk him back down. When it was something easy for him (like sit and wait), I built the duration much faster. (If a dog is uncomfortable working away from his owner, you would build the distance very slowly, too)


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Thanks LazyG, that really clarifies things, thank you.


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## Kaz Tarja (Apr 6, 2009)

im writing to give you hope. i live in australia and i become a fully qualified dog trainer when i was 17. never ever let anyone tell you that you are too young to do something. if someone is not willing to listen to you because they think you are too young then you do not need to waste your time on them. i have had people like that. even now they give me that look of 'you could be my grandchild' but i begin to talk and they begin to listen.

there is no doubt that you will gain experience and knowledge as you get older. but who is to stay that an older trainer is a better trainer? compare a 17 year old who had been training dogs for 5 years to a 30 year old who has been doing it for 2. 

the best advice i can give is scope out the trainers around you, or where your moving to. go and talk to them face to face, if they want nothing to do with you, you want nothing to do with them. you need to find someone to be your mentor, if you dont like their training methods or ethics look for someone else. 

and good luck, the world of dog training is fascinating and ever changing, it can be hard, sweet, awesome, breathtaking and sometimes you wonder why you do it to yourself. but it is so rewarding.

if it is something you want to do let no one stand in your way. ever. take it from someone who has been there.


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## DJEtzel (Dec 28, 2009)

Kaz Tarja said:


> im writing to give you hope. i live in australia and i become a fully qualified dog trainer when i was 17. never ever let anyone tell you that you are too young to do something. if someone is not willing to listen to you because they think you are too young then you do not need to waste your time on them. i have had people like that. even now they give me that look of 'you could be my grandchild' but i begin to talk and they begin to listen.
> 
> there is no doubt that you will gain experience and knowledge as you get older. but who is to stay that an older trainer is a better trainer? compare a 17 year old who had been training dogs for 5 years to a 30 year old who has been doing it for 2.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the encouragement. I appreciate it.


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## LazyGRanch713 (Jul 22, 2009)

DJEtzel said:


> Thanks LazyG, that really clarifies things, thank you.


Glad to help  A clicker savvy dog is truely a joy to work with (Tag) and a dog who isn't as clicker savvy in shaping (Dude) is harder, but more challenging, and sometimes give you better things than you had thought of originally (the playbow vs. 4 on the board). If you ever want to do canine freestyle, a clicker really comes in handy (we don't compete but we copy some of the moves I see on videos, just for fun)  I'm working with Tag on a hind foot lift..


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