# Training a terrier to come!



## JackandJordi (Oct 22, 2008)

I feel sort of horrible for posting this, but here it is. I am looking for some ideas about how to train my terrier to come. I emphasize terrier because I had no problem training my shepherd (or several other peoples' dogs for that matter) but I think the "terrier mind" warrants a different approach.

With my older female it was easy because she is very food-motivated. However, my 2 yr. old male (intact-but not being bred ever unless he has a successful show career) is not. Somewhat, but certainly not to the extent of the female. He is very focused on me, and will stay close- but there have been several instances where I have needed the "come" specifically and it is just not there. He will sit and lie down on command.

Thoughts? I have worked with him on a long leash/retractable leash but he knows when he is on it, and those times when I really need him to listen are usually the ones where his focus has been totally turned from me. I would give a lot just to have a reliable come command with this guy! 
The slightly more complicated aspect of this is that I need it from the back of a horse- I like to bring my dog out on hacks with me and my horse, but when we get to a road/etc he needs to come when called and hop to it- for his safety. When I'm on the ground I can get after him so he is ok with coming, but when I'm riding I can't so he pays less attention.

Thanks


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

prey drive.

terriers tend to have a healthy dose of prey drive and that is something you can use that is very rewarding for them.

does he like to chase things? does he get excited at the sight of squirrels and the like?


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## JackandJordi (Oct 22, 2008)

zimandtakandgrrandmimi said:


> prey drive.
> 
> terriers tend to have a healthy dose of prey drive and that is something you can use that is very rewarding for them.
> 
> does he like to chase things? does he get excited at the sight of squirrels and the like?


Yes definitely, and you are brilliant- I never thought of that! How do I use prey drive to teach the command? I am highly intrigued!


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## zimandtakandgrrandmimi (May 8, 2008)

use it in the same way you would use a treat. as a reward.

it also works well as a lure. 

get a bit of leather, or like a rabbit skin...something like that. something that smells prey like. attach it to a string and fix the string to a handle...kind of like those cat toys you see. this is something you can use to simulate moving prey.

and you can use it to lure and use allowing him to "catch" it as a reward and use THAT to teach come. and if your string is long enough its a reward you can use on horseback


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

I also second the use of a prey toy as a reward for coming. I'm beginning to realize that for some dogs, food just isn't that high of a reward. I wouldn't dangle a lure line off of a horse's back though, just seems a recipe for disaster. I'd worry about the lure line getting caught in the horses legs IF the horse were to spook or something else unexpected happened. 

But as a rider, there is just no way I would hack out with my dog IF the dog does not have a really reliable recall. I personally leave the dogs at home, or in the stall when I am riding. But I really prefer to focus on training the horse when I'm at the barn, I don't want to train the dog at the same time.

Now as a child I would ride out on the trails and roads with my mothers Golden Retriever , who was trained to follow, stay out of the roads when cars approached and had a reliable recall. But golden female is a far cry from an intact terrier male. 

I have a 4mo Standard Schnauzer female (intact but due to be spayed soon) I bring to the barn but keep on either a 6' leash or a 20 line. There are too many things to keep her attention off of me when I call her in (deer poop, horse poop, barn dogs food, open bags of fish food, grain, the 3 other barn dogs, hounds that roam the countryside) I use the 20' line for recall training. I let her go out 20' and investigate something (deer poop) and call her back to me. I click and reward with a super high value food reward. I am taking care of an injured horse at the same time, (in the same space) so jumping around with a squeaky squirrel toy would be a good way to get the horse excited and re-injured. So I stick to meatballs, chicken scraps and etc. But I realize that the prey toy would be a higher reward than the food.

IF she become reliable on the recall I'll hack out with her, if not she stays home. But again, barn time is horse time for me.


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## JackandJordi (Oct 22, 2008)

NRB said:


> I also second the use of a prey toy as a reward for coming. I'm beginning to realize that for some dogs, food just isn't that high of a reward. I wouldn't dangle a lure line off of a horse's back though, just seems a recipe for disaster. I'd worry about the lure line getting caught in the horses legs IF the horse were to spook or something else unexpected happened.
> 
> But as a rider, there is just no way I would hack out with my dog IF the dog does not have a really reliable recall. I personally leave the dogs at home, or in the stall when I am riding. But I really prefer to focus on training the horse when I'm at the barn, I don't want to train the dog at the same time.
> 
> ...


Nice to find another horse person on here!!

My situation is somewhat complicated- I used to hack out with my dog at my old barn- he was absolutely fine, he follows very well so I really don't pay any attention to him.
The unusual thing in my new situation is that the big field where I go to hack is *right* next to a road, there is a fence but he can go under it. So, even when he stays within 20-30 feet of me there it is not safe unless I can teach him to stay within the fence.
I would take him out to a trail or whatever without a second thought, and he runs around the barn when I am riding (he stays out of the arenas). Since I do live at the barn he pretty much has the run of the place- although he still sits outside of the arena and waits while I ride.

So I don't really give a thought to him- just can't be worrying about going near the road, just in case. For now I'm just shutting him inside when I go out there- maybe I will just have to do that.

Annoyingly, I can take him all sorts of places off-leash and he follows and comes when called- there are no problems with other dogs (otherwise he would not still be intact). I just need to replicate that in places where he is familiar.

My friend is very experienced with clicker training, I will ask her to come over and work with me- I bet something like meat scraps would be up there with a prey toy for him .

And I would love for my boy to be able to come out there and run around with me again! I could never take my female out on trails, she is pure terrier, but my little guy is very "me-oriented"- no matter what's happening, if I leave he will follow. I hope I can fix all those little holes in his training.

I've spent a lot of time working with both horse and dog so that riding with him goes very smoothly- I'm hoping I won't have to leave him just because of this!


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

you know if your dog is good with boundaries, then I bet that your clicker training friend can help you out. it will just take some time on foot, without the horse, to train the dog that the fence is the boundary.

If you are hacking in a field I suspect that you are either a fellow eventer or possibly a hunter. I don't think I'd ever hear "hack" come out of a western pleasure riders mouth. But I could be wrong. What's your riding orientation? And is this a JR Terrier?


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## ValtheAussie (Apr 19, 2009)

Is this the same idea as using a pole teaser???

I have a half terrier who loves to chase after chipmunks and squirrels!!


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## JackandJordi (Oct 22, 2008)

NRB said:


> you know if your dog is good with boundaries, then I bet that your clicker training friend can help you out. it will just take some time on foot, without the horse, to train the dog that the fence is the boundary.
> 
> If you are hacking in a field I suspect that you are either a fellow eventer or possibly a hunter. I don't think I'd ever hear "hack" come out of a western pleasure riders mouth. But I could be wrong. What's your riding orientation? And is this a JR Terrier?


I will let you know how it goes with the clicker training friend- I went out with him today for a quick training session (about half hour) and used turkey and the clicker- he responded really well and "got" the stay command quite well- I'm going to try to do this every day and then hopefully when my friend comes out I will have a strong foundation with the clicker.

And yes, I am an eventer/dressage rider/ jumper  I'm really just a wannabe eventer, my horse loves it but he is still green and I have confidence issues- hope to get there one day though! What do you do?
I actually got introduced to forums in general because of my horse forum 

Oh and my doggies are norwich terriers- so not as high strung as JRs generally are, thankfully!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

Ah, I am jealous of you horsey folk. My one experience on a horse involved a horse so big I had to use a picnic table to get on to him (and I'm almost six feet tall), a broken girth and a LONG drop and roll when the saddle swung to his belly. It's a good thing I've always been a bit of a klutz, you learn early how to fall "well". I DID get back on and would love to do it again..but not too many trail ride companies in downtown Toronto..lol.

Anyhoo.
I too would recommend boundary training with the fence and your clicker friend can certainly help with this. I have also used prey drive work with Cracker (part scent hound) to get a reliable recall off prey. On leash at first, we would go to a safe area where there were lots of squirrels. If she saw and pointed I would ask for a sit (ohh and it was a SLOOOOW fully squirrel attentive sit) then I would alternately reward her with the leash removal and the cue to GET IT and luring her away with the stinkiest food I could. So she learned that by listening to me she still got to chase the squirrels SOMETIMES but on cue and that others she may have to give up the chase and come with me for BACON!
This is called using the premack principle, rewarding the dog with what the dog wants most. The idea being that she sees a squirrel and STOPS and waits for the cue to GET IT. It's not perfect yet and I've slacked off abit with the training but she's MUCH better at recall because I am not always the end of the fun.


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

We went over the PreMack principle in obed. class last week. What Cracker said. haven't spent to much time on it yet. it's a great trainign idea, and I can't wait to find time to work with it.

back to the OP, I'm a weenie, a perpetual novice level eventer, done some dressage and jumpers. Horse is stall bound from a suspensory injury in Sept. I get to handgraze for 2hrs a day. I found out about this forum on COTH. Norwich terriers are cute as a button. 

To explain Premack principle. It's what I do to my 2.5yo daughter at the dinner table, "Eat your dinner and you can have some ice cream for desert. But no dinner, no ice creme" You ask them for a behavior you want, and when they give it to you you reward with a behavior they really want. Cracker's dog sitting so that they can chase the squirrel. My instructors dogs, when they want to go outside go into their crates and wait for her to open the door. They really want to go outside, but they know that if they go inside their crate they will get the owner to open the door.


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## HyperFerret (Feb 7, 2009)

Sorry, I don't have anything else to add but...



Cracker said:


> Ah, I am jealous of you horsey folk. My one experience on a horse involved a horse so big I had to use a picnic table to get on to him (and I'm almost six feet tall), a broken girth and a LONG drop and roll when the saddle swung to his belly. It's a good thing I've always been a bit of a klutz, you learn early how to fall "well".


 That made me LOL! Reminded me of when I was really little, about 8 or so years old. The horse owner sat my sister and I on their horse and I guess the saddle was loose. My sister, a year younger than me, lost balance but took BOTH of us down with the saddle sliding with us. She fell to the ground but I was holding on for dear life, lol. So there I hung on the belly of a horse. Not sure how I managed to keep a hold of the saddle to keep from falling to the ground, but I remember just hanging upside down till someone got me.

I'm jealous as well. I would LOVE to have a horse some day. I've ridden many many times but never had one of my own. But can't have one till I learn a lot more and own a lot more land.

So what does it mean to go out on a hack/hack out?


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## NRB (Sep 19, 2009)

HyperFerret said:


> So what does it mean to go out on a hack/hack out?


a hack is a mindless, no work involved, easy going ride out into the fields or woods. A trail ride really. Is most often an english term (as in British) The only people who say "I'm going for a Hack" or "there's a lot of good open land for hacking around here" are folks who were trained under a British influence like the American Pony Club or someone who events. Anyone else would say "We're going on a trail ride today" hacks are great ways to keep competition horses sharp and mentally happy.


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## JackandJordi (Oct 22, 2008)

Cracker said:


> Ah, I am jealous of you horsey folk. My one experience on a horse involved a horse so big I had to use a picnic table to get on to him (and I'm almost six feet tall), a broken girth and a LONG drop and roll when the saddle swung to his belly. It's a good thing I've always been a bit of a klutz, you learn early how to fall "well". I DID get back on and would love to do it again..but not too many trail ride companies in downtown Toronto..lol.
> 
> Anyhoo.
> I too would recommend boundary training with the fence and your clicker friend can certainly help with this. I have also used prey drive work with Cracker (part scent hound) to get a reliable recall off prey. On leash at first, we would go to a safe area where there were lots of squirrels. If she saw and pointed I would ask for a sit (ohh and it was a SLOOOOW fully squirrel attentive sit) then I would alternately reward her with the leash removal and the cue to GET IT and luring her away with the stinkiest food I could. So she learned that by listening to me she still got to chase the squirrels SOMETIMES but on cue and that others she may have to give up the chase and come with me for BACON!
> This is called using the premack principle, rewarding the dog with what the dog wants most. The idea being that she sees a squirrel and STOPS and waits for the cue to GET IT. It's not perfect yet and I've slacked off abit with the training but she's MUCH better at recall because I am not always the end of the fun.


Thanks, that's a great idea! I will try it out.



NRB said:


> We went over the PreMack principle in obed. class last week. What Cracker said. haven't spent to much time on it yet. it's a great trainign idea, and I can't wait to find time to work with it.
> 
> back to the OP, I'm a weenie, a perpetual novice level eventer, done some dressage and jumpers. Horse is stall bound from a suspensory injury in Sept. I get to handgraze for 2hrs a day. I found out about this forum on COTH. Norwich terriers are cute as a button.
> 
> To explain Premack principle. It's what I do to my 2.5yo daughter at the dinner table, "Eat your dinner and you can have some ice cream for desert. But no dinner, no ice creme" You ask them for a behavior you want, and when they give it to you you reward with a behavior they really want. Cracker's dog sitting so that they can chase the squirrel. My instructors dogs, when they want to go outside go into their crates and wait for her to open the door. They really want to go outside, but they know that if they go inside their crate they will get the owner to open the door.


Hey, to me, novice is great! I've schooled training and my horse was a star but we can't even get through beginner novice by ourselves yet. One day! Sorry about the suspensory, those are a total pain. 

I should really get myself to a dog training class  I'll look around!



HyperFerret said:


> Sorry, I don't have anything else to add but...
> 
> That made me LOL! Reminded me of when I was really little, about 8 or so years old. The horse owner sat my sister and I on their horse and I guess the saddle was loose. My sister, a year younger than me, lost balance but took BOTH of us down with the saddle sliding with us. She fell to the ground but I was holding on for dear life, lol. So there I hung on the belly of a horse. Not sure how I managed to keep a hold of the saddle to keep from falling to the ground, but I remember just hanging upside down till someone got me.
> 
> ...


NRB was correct, what I generally mean when I say hack is just a relaxing ride out in a field or on the trail 

And the saddle slipping thing happens to a lot of people! I always check my girth several times to prevent such a thing


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## HyperFerret (Feb 7, 2009)

Now I understand what a hack is.  Sure does sound nice. ...Ah maybe some day I'll be able to go out on a hack. To be able to take a dog or two out on the hack sounds awesome also. I can picture it now.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Whoa/stay break your dog.


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## digits mama (Jun 13, 2007)

I loveeee Norwich Terriers.. Can I see a pic?!


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## Kat_Renee (May 6, 2009)

as i was searching this part of the forum for recall training ideas (my aussie mix does similar things like your terrier), i just want to say HI as another horse person  I've also evented- horse trials through novice as well! Currently horseless, but love COTH (lurker) to live vicariously through other horse owning people..

Anyway, good ideas mentioned!


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## TxRider (Apr 22, 2009)

My dog knows the diff between real and fake prey, and though useful prey training with a fake prey won't get me much.

On the other hand, teaching her a boundary line, in my case the edge of my yard (curb and driveway on each side) was remarkably easy just correcting her each time she put a foot on the wrong side.


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## JackandJordi (Oct 22, 2008)

digits mama said:


> I loveeee Norwich Terriers.. Can I see a pic?!


Of course!!

my girl, Jordi








her and my boy Jack, as a pup








Jacky boy all grown up!












Kat_Renee said:


> as i was searching this part of the forum for recall training ideas (my aussie mix does similar things like your terrier), i just want to say HI as another horse person  I've also evented- horse trials through novice as well! Currently horseless, but love COTH (lurker) to live vicariously through other horse owning people..
> 
> Anyway, good ideas mentioned!


Hey, great to meet another horse person! I also lurk on COTH, and post regularly on HGS!


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