# New dog owner here. Is my dog a Flat-Coated Retriever?



## Denny347 (Oct 2, 2011)

Hello all, this is the family's first dog. We adopted him from the Humane Society in May and he was 4 months old. Kids love him and there is a definite learning curve but we and Cooke (the dog) are both still learning. I believe (and so did the Humane Society) the he is a Flat Coated Retriever. However, his coat is throwing me off. It is so curly on his back that it is almost comical. It is likely that he is a mix but I cannot put my finger on it. Not that it matters but I am very curious about it. Here are a few pics. Any ideas?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

FCRs are very rare and their breeders usually manage to keep tabs on their pups so they don't end up in shelters. Finding one in a shelter would be highly unlikely. They also have a distinctive muzzle that I don't see in your dog. I don't think there's any FCR in him at all.

He looks to have a lot of Irish Setter in him (or maybe Gordon, because of the tan points on his legs). Maybe some Spaniel (probably Springer). And a few other breeds . He's a good-looking dog, that's for sure!


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## lauren17 (Apr 14, 2009)

The first picture he looks like an irish setter mix but the other pictures I'm seeing lab/australian shepherd mix. Aussie explains the wavy coat. I don't see flat coat retriever at all. He's very pretty!


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## luv2byte (Oct 21, 2009)

What a doll! Color makes me think irish setter, eyes & ears (and curly fur) make me think aussie, muzzle makes me think lab.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

The first pic and the tail made me think of Setter and the last two pics I detect some pips from something else; unless I need my glasses changed. I imagine Gordon Setter would be too rare? The color reminds me of Irish though.I am just guessing.  Maybe even some Chocolate lab.


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

I can see where the shelter would say Flat Coat, but I think it's unlikely your dog has any in him. The wave on his back doesn't mean much, it's pretty common in that kind of coat. I want to say Setter x Lab. Do his tan points look brindled to anyone else?

Edit: English setters can be tan pointed.


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## Denny347 (Oct 2, 2011)

I'm just curious. I find it helpful just to understand what is normal behavior since he is still so young. Not that I care WHAT he is, he's a good dog MOST of the time. He is still a pup and does naughty "puppy" stuff on occasion and I have to remind myself "He's just a puppy."


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

What are some of the behaviors? Labs will dig/play in their water dish, drink from the faucet, play with water from a hose. Many other non-retriever breeds think that a stream of water is the devil incarnate. Some dogs have long toes, but Labs have webbing between their toes. Labs tend to be mouthy and young Lab puppy teeth can draw blood, easily. Other dogs have some of these traits.


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## wabanafcr (Jun 28, 2007)

As a Flatcoat owner and breeder for the past 16 years, I can say with 100% certainty that your dog isn't a Flatcoat. He is, however, absolutely adorable! I would say setter in there somewhere, maybe lab. I'll bet he is a ton of fun!!!


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## ADalla (Oct 1, 2011)

I see Border Collie in him actually.

Or spaniel mix...

Beauty of a dog though!


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## +two (Jul 12, 2011)

I see a lot of Setter (Irish mostly) in there... nice looking dog. 

OP is your dogs points brindled?


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## Denny347 (Oct 2, 2011)

+two said:


> I see a lot of Setter (Irish mostly) in there... nice looking dog.
> 
> OP is your dogs points brindled?


 No they are not. I did have to look up the definition...I am a "dog speak" newbie


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## Denny347 (Oct 2, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> What are some of the behaviors? Labs will dig/play in their water dish, drink from the faucet, play with water from a hose. Many other non-retriever breeds think that a stream of water is the devil incarnate. Some dogs have long toes, but Labs have webbing between their toes. Labs tend to be mouthy and young Lab puppy teeth can draw blood, easily. Other dogs have some of these traits.


He drinks fine other than he is the messiest drinker I know...leaves a puddle trail from the bowl to the living room..haha. He LOVES drinking from a hose. He actually does great when I give him a bath. He doesn't love it but he stands there for as long as I need him to. He does have webbing between his toes. He is not mouthy, we did look at another dog before we found him and that dog tore my arm up just mouthing me...that was no fun. He is a chewer. If it is not a Nylabone, he will find a way to tear it apart and eat it (toys that is). He stays in our kitchen when we are away and he doesn't chew up anything. He does love to chew my socks and towels.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

This dog also appears to have the E-masking gene, displacing the tan points with the base coat color on the muzzle.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Almost everything about this pretty dog screams NOVA SCOTIA DUCK TOLLER, except for it's brown color~ 
http://www.google.com/imgres?hl=en&sa=X&biw=1138&bih=555&tbm=isch&prmd=imvns&tbnid=YnDZRb6WfDV4lM:&imgrefurl=http://www.smalldogsrus.com/nova-scotia-duck-tolling-retriever.html&docid=q4-ndhMepnK4lM&w=352&h=336&ei=rheOToSDA83HsQK7upjHAQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=183&vpy=156&dur=6860&hovh=219&hovw=230&tx=49&ty=167&page=3&tbnh=154&tbnw=156&start=20&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:20


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

No it doesn't.

The dog is WAY too big, for one, the tail is wrong, the head is close but too heavy and coarse, and I would expect more feathering from a Toller mix. The ear set and shape are right, but triangular drop ears are not exactly a rare feature among dogs. The feathering behind the ears is right, but again that's common among every dog that has that coat type. The dog definitely has some sporting dog heritage, but the OP's dog is far too big and heavy to have more than minimal Toller heritage and anything that might be attributed to a Toller ancestor is seen among other, more common breeds of dogs.


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## sparky62704 (Oct 4, 2011)

Dang, you really know your breeds! :0


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Well I do have dropping his ball on my keyboard at the moment.


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## Austinsmom (Apr 5, 2011)

lauren17 said:


> The first picture he looks like an irish setter mix but the other pictures I'm seeing lab/australian shepherd mix. Aussie explains the wavy coat. I don't see flat coat retriever at all. He's very pretty!


Short coat is dominant so both parents of this dog would have med to long coat.
I do see Irish Setter or Gordon Setter. I don't see Emasking (Emasking masks copper)as he does have copper on his legs so I lean toward Gordon Setter and Field Spaniel or Chesapeake? Or even Irish setter and Aussie.

http://www.akc.org/breeds/sporting_group.cfm

Genetics of Coat length
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/coatType.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2897713/

Coat Color
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html


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## GottaLuvMutts (Jun 1, 2009)

I also see some kind of herder in him - probably Aussie or BC. I'll say one of those two mixed with a hunting dog - setter or retriever probably.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Austinsmom said:


> Short coat is dominant so both parents of this dog would have medium to long coat


That's interesting, because I knew a Lab/Golden Retriever mix (both parents purebred) who had a long coat very much like a Golden's. Do Labs carry the longhair gene?


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## Austinsmom (Apr 5, 2011)

No. Was the lab absolutely pure bred? If not he could of carried a recessive gene.
http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/coatType.html


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## RaeganW (Jul 14, 2009)

Willowy said:


> That's interesting, because I knew a Lab/Golden Retriever mix (both parents purebred) who had a long coat very much like a Golden's. Do Labs carry the longhair gene?


Yep. Almost every breed with short hair has long hair recessives lurking around. I've seen long haired Dobermans, Mastiffs, and of course German Shepherds. Malamutes and Corgis get fluffies too. Long haired Weims are recognized in every other country; there is one in my training class who is simply stunning.


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## Austinsmom (Apr 5, 2011)

No. You are also talking about two breeds that do NOT come in varieties AND are the most commonly
back yard bred breeds.

I was in Rottweilers for many years and only saw a longish hair specimen from doubtful parentage
where I have seen red and dilute colors pop up from well bred litters. While it is possible to carry a 
recessive long coat gene the possibility without variety is slim.

Perhaps there is confusion between medium coat and true long coat? As there are modifiers.

" the mutation causing long is recessive also, but the length of the "long" is variable within individuals and across the breeds. They classified some dog breeds as having meidum length hair and either or both genotypes were present in some of these"



We can agree to disagree.


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## retrieverman (Oct 8, 2011)

Labradors do carry a recessive long-coated gene: http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/do-labradors-come-in-long-hair/ 

It's really quite rare.

A lot of Lab/golden mixes are golden retriever mixed with something else with long-hair. Most golden retrievers are genetically dominant black dogs, but they have an e/e genotype that prevents the black from appearing on the fur. It does, however, show up in the skin pigment. Many golden retriever/border collie crosses are black dogs that look like long-haired Labradors or flat-coated retrievers, especially if the border collie in the cross had drop ears. 









http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/golden-retriever-border-collie-1.png

Even crosses with rough collies and golden retrievers will often produce black puppies that look like long-haired Labradors.

I had a dog that was half golden retriever and half brindle boxer. She looked very much like a Labrador x:










http://retrieverman.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/kizzy1.jpg

Her mother was an AKC-registered golden retriever with very long, wavy hair. She even had a water spanielish topknot.


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## retrieverman (Oct 8, 2011)

I think it's a working type golden retriever/border collie or Australian shepherd cross. Golden retrievers that are working type often have really wavy-coats and really lithe frames. Goldens also carry the black and tan and liver and tan markings, which are masked by the e/e genotype. Working type goldens are also often quite a bit smaller and less bear-like than the show strain dogs. The liver coloration exists in both border collies and Australian shepherd, which is called red. But I'm a gun dog person, so I call it liver.

It could be a red or BC Aussie crossed with a liver belton English setter, but I think you need retriever in there to get the dominant solid color.


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## retrieverman (Oct 8, 2011)

Also, golden retrievers, Labrador retrievers, and Chessies carry brindle. You never see it in goldens because of the e/e genotype. Any kind of black or liver won't appear on the fur. The e/e will just mask it. That's why we can breed goldens for generations and never know what color they actually are. The only visible color will ivory white to mahogany.

Irish setters are e/e's too, but you can't have an e/e with brindle or tan markings-- at least that you can see.

Goldens have tan markings and sable that are masked through this e/e/.

I'm leaning more toward Australian shepherd because they more often have this wavy coat than border collies, but if it's golden in this dog, wavy coats are very common working type dogs, as is the brown-skinned gene.

Goldens and yellow Labs that have brown skin are different colors from those with black skin. Most goldens are dominant black dogs with the e/e genotype masking any black pigment. Those with brown skin are liver dogs with the same masking genotype. As soon as you introduce one allele for E into a golden retriever, you will get liver or black pigment on the coat.

You can also get it through some weird somatic mutations, which change the genes on certain areas of the body to E/e:


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I think we agree that it is a retriever... I vote for a setter cross. 

However, considering the wide variety of expertise, I think I should post pix of my inadvertent designer dog ...


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## retrieverman (Oct 8, 2011)

If it's setter, then it's Gordon setter. Liver and tan is a common faulty color in Gordon setters. I don't think Irish setters mask anything other than dominant black with their e/e.


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## Austinsmom (Apr 5, 2011)

Take good look at the outline of this dog. Although of obvious mixed heritage, you can see a distinct regal outline to him.


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## Denny347 (Oct 2, 2011)

UPDATE...for the fun of it. Not that it makes much difference or is really all that important. I had him DNA tested for $90. Would NEVER have guessed it.


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## Kayota (Aug 14, 2009)

I can see Brittany and Aussie, but Dachshund? I don't put a whole lot of stock in those DNA tests myself.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

I see the Aussie, possibly even the Britany. Though I would have guessed Golden Retriever. I'm not a fan of the breed tests anyways. Thank you though for posting the results. I wonder if the results would be the same from another company, or even if the results would be the same with the same company.


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## agility collie mom (Jan 26, 2008)

Here is an interesting photo of a chessie mix. http://www.google.com/imgres?q=aust...=27&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0,i:105&biw=1600&bih=580


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## sclevenger (Nov 11, 2012)

I see Aussie too. Whatever he is though...he is beautiful!!


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## Spirit_of_Cotons (Jun 21, 2009)

Not a Flat Coat and they mainly come in the color black. He looks like a Long-Haired German Pointer, but since they are rare I highly doubt it. I'd say Toller/Setter mix. Your dog is cute.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I would buy aussie and brittany. 

I do have to say that the dog does appear to be masked and the points do appear to be brindle based on the pictures.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

I know what he is! He's a Chocolate North American Fluffy Butted Retriever! 

I have a Golden NAFBR:










The distinctive fluffy butt:


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