# Puppy biting and snarling



## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

This seems to have been covered ad nauseum, but my situation seems a little different and have not come across a consensus. 
I have had my lab a month now, he is 12 weeks. For the most part, he is an intelligent, well meaning dog. Very independent dog that likes to play too. The problem is his biting. I have read all the articles on bite inhibition, and he does not bite hard anymore. Occasionally though he will just flip a switch and go nutty. Growling, barking, snapping I would expect from a puppy when he wants to play. And that all seems playful when he does it. The problem is you cannot just "walk away" or "turn your back" and stop him from biting, jumping, lundging, etc.

NO!! only seems to fire him up. Touch just accelerates things. Stand still and you are dead in the water because now he has an easy target to bite. I was told and read online many places to lay him on his side until he calms down. That is good if you want a 12 week lab puppy showing you his teeth and looking crazed! If he has something in his mouth you dont want him to have, expect to see a snarl and teeth. Want him to move outside and he doesnt want to go? Put your hands on his sides and try to guide him outside and prepare to get snapped at. The only thing that seems to work is crating him in a time out for 5-10 minutes. But good luck getting him in there without a biting/snapping frenzy. 

We are starting puppy kindergarten this coming Monday. He is well socialized and is not afraid, well, of anything! He seems to listen to me more than my wife. She is willing to discipline in any way we need to, but nothing seems to work. He gets plenty of "pack walks" in the morning and evening. We do short training sessions throughout the day, clicker and treats and he does well. Teaching him tricks and obedience is not an issue. I dont think giving him treats when he is in that frame of mind is right...seems like it would just reinforce that behavior. 

A bit of background info , because I think it may be related to my problem. He got into some algae water and has had loose stool for a week. Has been on an antibiotic and there has been no loss of appetite or ability/want to drink water. So other than the loose stool, he is doing fine there. I wonder if he just really feels worse than he lets on and that is why he is so foul sometimes, or is this a case of lab puppy syndrome? What do you do when he goes psycho and yelping and walking away just fuels his fire??
Thanks


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

This is what I would do. 

Puppy Throwing a Tantrum



> Tantrums
> 
> Should your pup struggle violently, or especially if he has a tantrum, you must not let go. Otherwise, your puppy will learn that if he struggles or throws a tantrum, he needn't calm down and be handled because the owner gives in. Bad news! With one hand on your pup's collar and the palm of your other hand against the puppy's chest, gently but firmly hold the pup's back against your abdomen. Hold the puppy so that his four legs point away from you and sufficiently low down against your abdomen so that he cannot turn his head and bite your face. Hold the pup until he calms down, which he will eventually do. Continue massaging the pup's ear with the fingers of one hand and his chest with the fingertips of your other hand. As soon as the puppy calms down and stops struggling, praise the pup, and after a few seconds of calm let him go. Then repeat the procedure.





gadean said:


> I was told and read online many places to lay him on his side until he calms down. That is good if you want a 12 week lab puppy showing you his teeth and looking crazed!


Better he show his teeth and look crazed when he's 12 weeks old than when he's 2 years old and weighs 80 lbs... 

Where did you get your dog? Did they do temperament testing?


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Wow. Thanks for the quick reply. 

He will yield(it may take 5 minutes) and as soon as you think he is calm-submissive and let him up, he is right back at it snapping and biting. 

Part of me thinks he is just wanting to play and just cannot control himself. I just do not understand the rebound right after he gives up he just comes right back!


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

Notice at the end of the quote it says "repeat the procedure". And are you holding him to your body? I have done this with all four of my puppies when they were small. If you have the patience and perseverance you can outlast your puppy. If you don't, you may have a bad situation on your hands as he grows up.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

He was purchased from a breeder in Tennessee. She said he was definately a follower, would be rambuncious but nothing out of the ordinary for a puppy. 
As I have told her numerous occasions, he does not seem to be quite the follower I was lead to believe. 

The thing with constantly holding them down is that it damages the relationship with the dog...or so I have read. I have not been holding them to me. I have been holding him on the ground. I will try holding him to me the next time. 

Repeat, repeat, repeat...maybe he is not really as calm-submissive as I think he is when I let him up. I try and slowly release him and see if he will stay put. Sometimes he does and sometimes he does not. If not, then back down he goes. Really worried about damaging the relationship/trust


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

Well, it didn't damage the relationship between me and my dogs (now 2, 3 and 7 years old). They got a massage and praise for settling down. And I had to make sure I remained calm. Which is hard to do, I know. 

Maybe someone else has some other suggestions, but a 12 week old puppy simply shouldn't be acting like that and getting his way, IMO. It's bound to set a dangerous precedent. 

Do you use a crate? Maybe a time out in his crate would help. You can try ignoring him. Ouch.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

FourIsCompany said:


> Well, it didn't damage the relationship between me and my dogs (now 2, 3 and 7 years old). They got a massage and praise for settling down. And I had to make sure I remained calm. Which is hard to do, I know.
> 
> Maybe someone else has some other suggestions, but a 12 week old puppy simply shouldn't be acting like that and getting his way, IMO. It's bound to set a dangerous precedent.
> 
> Do you use a crate? Maybe a time out in his crate would help. You can try ignoring him. Ouch.


He definately doesnt get away with it. We are pretty stern with him, it just gets really old sometimes. We can be playing/training/you name it and he just goes off the deep end wanting to bite and rough house. It is really no fun to have to keep putting your puppy in his kennel 4-5 times a day for being a little butthead. 
Like I said, any of the above methods only fuel his fire. He does not take NO for an answer. Time outs in the crate are the only things that work reliably. A few more months of these outbursts and he will be too big to control. 

I was hoping there was something else we could do. I am willing to look in the mirror at the things I am doing to correct the situation. Thanks for the tips. Will try them and see how they do


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

I wouldn't use the crate for a timeout - don't want him to have a negative association with it. I would use a real boring room. Keep him on a leash if he starts up with the biting, lead him to the other room, close the door and leave him there for a couple of minutes. Then bring him back and if he does it again, repeat the process until he stops. He will stop after awhile.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

"calm-submissive" - Did you learn that from a certain TV program?

Calm is okay, but submissive? Do you really want a submissive companion? Why?

I honestly haven't known many 12 week old puppies, or dogs for that matter, who would remain in a submissive down after the hooman's body pressure keeping them there was released. That's a very vulnerable position for a dog to be in and when you are forcing the issue to get there you are in no way helping to build a trusting relationship. You are not teaching your dog anything except that your hands can be forceful and unpredictable. It seems to make sense then how your puppy is reacting to your hands in other situations where you are trying to restrain and manipulate him, no? There's also the issue of you taking things from him with those hands.

The article FourIsCompany recommended is a good one, as is the Training Textbook on the same website. In addition to those handling exercises: Need to get your puppy to move somewhere? Snap a leash on him or practice recall without a leash and reward, reward, reward him with a favorite tidbit for coming with you. Need to get something out of puppy's mouth? Begin teaching him to trade things, starting with a lower value item he has in exchange for something way better. Every now and then you should also give him what he had back in addition to a reward for the trade. Once he's reliably giving things up, put the behavior on cue.


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## HORSEandHOUND (May 28, 2009)

I am glad to hear you will be starting puppy kindergarten, because that's exactly what this pup needs.
mental and physical stimulation.

you may feel you are giving adequate amounts of both at this time, but his behavior clearly says otherwise. Take him into an enclosed yard and let him get his yaya's out, or long walks. Once you are in puppy class, practice the commands several times a day so that you can flex his brain muscles. 

he's under stimulated and frustrated... he's probably a 2 on temperment scale as well which means he's really best suited for a more advanced pet owner.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Yup...calm-submissive...got that from the DW. I dont mean submissive as in peeing on the floor, tail tucked between his legs frightened or cowardly...but just in a different state of mind than he is in when acting up. Sorry for using a catch phrase. 

As for his puppy temperment, he probably is a 2 on a scale. Not quite sure what you mean by a more advanced dog handler. 

He goes on several long walks a day, he trains throughout the day, he has a large backyard to get his ya-ya's out. 90% of the time when we are not walking, playing, training, chilling, he is asleep or playing with his own toys. It is the 10% where he DOES NOT RESPOND that is the issue. 

I have had dogs before, some that have been trained in agility. I know what it means to exercise mentally and physically a dog like this. I have never had an issue with one snarling back at me at the age of 12 weeks and not respond.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

gadean said:


> He definately doesnt get away with it. [...] He does not take NO for an answer.


What I mean by getting *his way* (not getting away with it) is that he bites and you back off. It works. He's learning that he can make you back off and leave him alone by biting and throwing a fit. That's why I would address it instead of ignoring it or putting him in a time out. I ignore _mild _behaviors and let them extinguish, but more serious behaviors, I address. I consider this more serious, and it could develop into something even _more _serious if not dealt with. 

Of course you're going to get varying advice on a forum.  And none of us knows the whole story or can see him in action, so it might be best for you to consult a behaviorist that can observe him. I can only say what I have done and what I would do.

By the way, I do want a submissive dog. In other words, I want my dogs to submit (or defer to me) when there's a disagreement. I don't want peeing-on-the-floor submission. I just want to make the rules and have them followed. 

Whatever you decide to do, I wish you good luck.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

4iscompany,
Thanks for the advice.
Of course, no one on this site except me can really tell what is going on.
Things tend to get lost in translation when written rather than spoken.

Personally, I dont think there is anything wrong with the idea of a calm-submissive state of mind for a dog. Getting the syntax right on a message board is something else I guess. Getting a 12 week old puppy in that state of mind can be next to impossible. 

Already difference of opinion with others and between themselves...crate him...dont crate him. 

The kindergarten class is a step in the right direction for further socialization.( It is held at the club where I have trained other dogs with agility)
In poor dogs defense, he has been a lot better, and the frequency has been fewer. I really thought we had it licked though and thought he was past it...just frustrating, but definately hanging in there.


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

The exercise that fouriscompany recommended is a good one for this sort of problem, and yes there is a big difference between forcing a submissive down and cradling/restricting your pup to achieve calm. One:you are not looming over the puppy, two: you are able (when the "calm" SECOND occurs.lol) to rub the pups belly in soothing movements to reinforce the calm.
He struggles, you hold firmly (not squeezing too hard, but enough he cannot escape or bite you)..he "settles" (which is a good cue word if you want to use it) and he gets soothing words and belly rubs and then released. It has to be done now when he is small. This is also a technique used for calming humans and other animals (like Temple Grandin's "squeeze box") if done correctly and at the right pressure level the dogs neurological and endocrine system starts sending calming hormones into the brain to calm it, done incorrectly, like in the down and hold (simulating an attack and causing the dog to feel vulnerable)it can trigger the dogs fight or flight instead, sending stimulating cortisol and adrenaline into the system. 

I do want to mention something else...is it possible he is OVERstimulated? Sometimes too much play, training and exercise can BUILD a hyper dog. It's a matter of balance, so you may want to think about adjusting his exercise schedule a bit to see if it makes a difference. I've seen many an active dog owner try in vain to "tire out" a pup by running it too much..and have it not work because of the extreme adrenaline high the dog is getting/adapting to.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

gadean said:


> Things tend to get lost in translation when written rather than spoken.


That's so true! LOL 



> Already difference of opinion with others and between themselves...crate him...dont crate him.


Just to be clear, I don't suggest crating him for punishment, I just thought maybe a time out would help. I personally only use the crate for potty training. My dogs don't even have crates.  

I'm sure your puppy is adorable. But how would we know for sure without pictures??? I'd love to see a post in the pictures forum from you.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Are you sitting legs crossed or on your knees with the puppyin the tantrum hold?

Like I said, I will try that instead. You never know unless you ask. Crate is not punishment for him, just a 5 minute timeout. He comes out happy and ready to play. 

I dont know that we are overworking but maybe...I will give you my schedule and you tell me.

Walk 5:30 AM -6:15AM This includes 5-10 minutes of allowing him to sniff in areas I designate as "fun areas"...areas where there is grass, sticks, grasshoppers to chase. Basically let him have a little excitement and be a search and rescue dog!

6:30-7:15 He usually likes to chill outside in the yard. I typically will read my Bible around 7:30 or so out there with him. Most of the time we do a 5 minute clicker session (sit, down, come)

Kennel from 8-10 (some days 12) Lunch, potty breaks, let him run around outside, etc. Sometimes will do more sit, down, come

Kennel again, sometimes for a couple hours(2PM) sometimes till 4. Depends on how much he is sleeping. 

Dinner, outside getting his rah-rah on, etc.
Walk from 6:45-7:30PM See above for walk details. May or may not work him more training wise at this point of the day. Depends on how tired he is. Some nights he puts himself to sleep at 8 and some nights he is totally restless. That is usually when psychodog comes out to play...usually. My wife is convinced he is like a toddler throwing a temper tantrum and just needs to go beddy-bye.

Like I said, I will definately try the tantrum hold and see if that helps. I know he will fight it at first, but with some dedication we will get it. 
I will post some pics if I can figure out how to...give me a day.
Thanks again for the advice


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

gadean said:


> Are you sitting legs crossed or on your knees with the puppyin the tantrum hold?


I just sit in a chair. The pup kind of "sits" between my legs.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

The puppy you are describing sounds just like my Golden as a pup. I suspected he was part hyena, and he took a long time to show any of that renowned retriever-devotion to his humans. It sounds like you picked a winner!

A lot of what you are seeing is high prey drive and high play drive. Yeah, they can be as wild as the wind when they are little. There is an element of dominance play in his behavior, but that doesn't necessarily equate to a dominant nature. My guy did all the same stuff, and he's matured into a gentle, goofy, and loyal adult. Well...he tries to be gentle, but he doesn't really know his own strength. There are more similarities than there are differences between Labs and Goldens, so I know what you are dealing with. Retrievers are bred to operate as part of a close knit team, but they are also expected to creatively solve problems. The independent and devoted parts of their natures eventually come together with bonding, trust, and training.

Don't be so quick to lean hard on a very young pup. You'll come to value that spirit, if you play your cards right. The pup's natural toughness and determination can be exasperating, but when you teach him to focus on a task, those qualities make him unstoppable. Practice being patient now, 'cause the real fun doesn't even begin until he's 5-6 months of age.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Muppet,
How did you corral that energy and drive as a puppy?
Not more than 10 minutes ago, my wife was getting dressed and he wanted to bite her clothes. Since that is an unwanted behavior, we addressed it by saying uh-uh and no...to which he responded with his snarling and biting. I tried the tantrum hold, and that worked, but he went right back at it with the lip curling, etc. I just cannot be doing this every 10 minutes, right?
I am sorry, but this is NOT normal for a lab puppy. I have once to be able to roll around on the floor with this puppy and just enjoy it. Puppies are supposed to be loveable right?? Something is wrong when you cannot even take the puppy by the collar and lead him away from something without a bite. 

Maybe the other poster was right about being with someone else...its just not for me.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

"Since that is an unwanted behavior, we addressed it by saying uh-uh and no...to which he responded with his snarling and biting."

Saying uh-uh and no did not tell your puppy what TO, so he tried something else. Unfortunately for you, what he tried was also an undesirable behavior in your opinion. Keep saying uh-uh and no and he might try other undesirable behaviors such as peeing on your shoes, going into another room and eating a houseplant, digging up the carpet, etc.  Why not have him go to his crate to enjoy a stuffed Kong, or keep him in the room and offer him something even better to play with than your wife's clothing? Yes, you are going to have to do this stuff (prevention, redirection) again and again with your puppy until he learns what behaviors work for you (and therefore work for him).


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> "Since that is an unwanted behavior, we addressed it by saying uh-uh and no...to which he responded with his snarling and biting."
> 
> Saying uh-uh and no did not tell your puppy what TO, so he tried something else. Unfortunately for you, what he tried was also an undesirable behavior in your opinion. Keep saying uh-uh and no and he might try other undesirable behaviors such as peeing on your shoes, going into another room and eating a houseplant, digging up the carpet, etc.  Why not have him go to his crate to enjoy a stuffed Kong, or keep him in the room and offer him something even better to play with than your wife's clothing? Yes, you are going to have to do this stuff (prevention, redirection) again and again with your puppy until he learns what behaviors work for you (and therefore work for him).


Yup yup. Tried redirecting. He wanted her clothes. Once he knew he was not going to get them, that is when the lip snarling started. 

Has me a bit worried...as another poster stated, maybe better suited for someone else...the dog just doesnt respect and/or like me I think


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

gadean said:


> Has me a bit worried...as another poster stated, maybe better suited for someone else...the dog just doesnt respect and/or like me I think


I'm afraid that is pretty normal behavior for a Lab puppy. They are not all that feisty, but a fair number are every bit as nuts-o as yours. It will help if you have somewhere you can put him in the water. Swimming will scrub off some of the crazy, and it is a lot easier on a young dog's joints. You also have to get out in front of his behavior, rather than always reacting to it. As he gets bigger (and faster) you'll be amazed at how much mischief he can make in a short time. Really, it is astounding.

Puppy obedience is going to be your life preserver. Enforce (gently) a sit before absolutely everything. He sits before being fed, he sits before going through doorways, he sits before you put his leash on. The NILF program is a good start. The pup must learn to work for everything he gets. They are smart dogs and you'll be impressed with how quickly he picks things up. But that still doesn't mean it will be quick or easy. It's going to be a helluva ride, and you will have to step up and put in the hours of training. If you do, by the time he's 2 years old, everyone you meet will want a dog just like him. They really do take well to training--I know that's hard to imagine now.

If you are not ready for that, you'll be better off rehoming him while he's still a baby.

PS: my wife is not very consistent with enforcing the rules, and she still requires a "decoy sock" to get dressed.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Thanks for the tips Muppet. 
This morning was a good walk followed by some training. 
When I decided things were done, he didnt like that and began nipping at my heels when I decided to walk away from him. As I sit here and write this, come to think of it, he has ALWAYS done that. Redirection, correction, ignore, more nipping, now his hairs are on end. I decide it is time to hold him in tantrum hold, he snarls but caves in. AHHHH...relief, right? Wrong. I make him down (which he does willingly). As I move onto a different part of the yard to inspect damage to my fence from a recent storm, guess who??!!?? puppy hold, more snarling...this goes on for 10 minutes. All the while I am talking in a soothing voice, trying to get him to calm down. 

I wish I had a body of water to put him in and let him swim himself to exhaustion...then I could get some rest. In the 5 weeks I have had this puppy, not once have I been able to really enjoy his company. I do practice the NILIF philosophy, he must work for everything. But there comes a point where you just want to play and have some fun with the dog. 
He has learned house manners, potty training, commands...if it was not for the aggressive snarling and biting(that is constant) then he would be an absolute awesome dog...time to face facts and realize that he may not be the dog for me.


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## HORSEandHOUND (May 28, 2009)

and that is totally okay. 
We have dogs in our lives to positively enhance them, if he is not doing that for you, i am sure there is someone out there for him that will enjoy his behavior.

I once (with an ex) got a jack russell x corgi puppy who growled like Janis Joplin. She was good hearted but literally her off button was broke. Your pup sounds a lot like Paddy. Paddy wasnt for me, i couldnt handle her boisterousness, the mischievousness, the growling, tugging, bouncing all the time (and im a bc person, i'm used to hyper). But the ex and she got along like 2 peas in a pod. He plays with her in the yard 4-5 hours a day playing fetch and frisbee. 

There's a happy ending for your dog too, but it may take some searching to find the right path.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

In my hierarchy, it is God, then my wife, then everything else. Right now, the dog is #1. My wife really opened up last night about how this animal is hurting our relationship. The constant biting and power that this dog is wielding over us is too much for her to take. She has been a dog owner before too. Neither one of us expected this out of a puppy.

If I were a single man, this dog is no problem. But it is really interferring with us, and to me that is a serious problem. 

Thanks to those who have responded. I appreciate your concern and great attitudes to help someone who is at their wits end.

As a side note, the Puppy Throwing a Tantrum link posted earlier stated that a dog that will not let you "hug" them after a day of desensitizing probably has some issues. He wont let you hug him without throwing a major hissy fit. 
Oh well...


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

gadean said:


> But there comes a point where you just want to play and have some fun with the dog.


All I really wanted was to be able to ignore my dog for a half hour. IIRC, there wasn't much of that until he was over 9 months old. The main thing that kept me in the game was that I could clearly see all the things that were right with the pup. He was a terror, but I knew what he would become. Having a beach a few hundred yards from my back door didn't hurt, either.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Will the breeder take him back? I sure hope so...

Also, if/when you two decide to get another dog, I hope you'll consider one who is not so young. In all seriousness, what you are describing here does not sound like abnormal puppy behavior to me. MOST puppies cannot be left in a down (sitting or standing) and be walked away from without them getting up to follow you. They are going to nip at your feet, legs, hands, arms, face and clothing. They are going to squirm and growl and bark. They are going to resist being held still. That may not describe EVERY puppy, but it is certainly true of PLENTY of puppies and it would be a shame if the next one turned out to be just as frustrating for you as this one.


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## ColoradoSooner (Mar 26, 2009)

pamperedpups said:


> Also, if/when you two decide to get another dog, I hope you'll consider one who is not so young.


I completely agree with this. I had a friend whose mom bred labs. I've never had one myself, but he said that they can be just completely terrible, insane dogs until about age 2. He said at that point, it's like the "good dog fairy" comes and takes away your bad dog and replaces it with a good one. 

So if you do give up this dog and decide to get one later, please consider an older, possibly rescued dog. They appreciate having a good home and to me, are much more enjoyable than puppies because most of the time, they don't have the wild issues you're describing.

Good luck!


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

ColoradoSooner said:


> I completely agree with this. I had a friend whose mom bred labs. I've never had one myself, but he said that they can be just completely terrible, insane dogs until about age 2. He said at that point, it's like the "good dog fairy" comes and takes away your bad dog and replaces it with a good one.


There is some truth to that, but it comes with a caveat. My pup went through a number of developmental stages where it was like somebody flipped a switch, and things changed markedly. At about 5 months, he went from being a difficult puppy to being an outrageously difficult adolescent. At about 15 months, he became much easier (not exactly easy) to deal with, as he didn't fight me on every single issue. At 2 years, he became quite likable and extremely willing to take direction. In the last few months (just before his 3rd birthday), he has learned to largely "turn it off" inside the house, and save his still-impressive energy for outdoors. At 2 years and 3 years of age, his affectionateness increased dramatically. He is now a world class mooch.

I would, however, strongly counsel against anyone believing that means that you can just wait them out. Without a lot of training--and I mean a lot--these high-drive dogs only get more entrenched in their bad behavior. Their excitable natures make escalation to antisocial behaviors a real possibility.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

I spoke with the breeder this afternoon. 
She knows I have done everything under the sun to find his zone where he can be effectively corrected. She also stated that it was probably me rather than the dog....she bases this on the fact that she has had people bring dogs back to her, complaining of aggressive tendencies, but the dogs are gems in her house. 

Well, that would have been nice to know right off the bat. 


Just to be clear...I am not expecting a 12 week old puppy to down-stay while I walk away. The dog does not have the attention span to stay. I dont get bothered when the dog follows me after I leave, I am pretty cool and the dog knows it and wants to be with me...how can I blame him for that. The nipping at my heels, although a little more of an irritant, is expected..he wants attention. 

But now, read this part slowly....I have a problem with a 12 week old dog that snarls and growls, snaps and bites because I am not paying attention and giving into what he wants. When you try and correct that, things escalate. MOST puppies DO NOT act like that. I am not a first time dog owner...this is not my first rodeo. Maybe I was just lucky before.


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## pamperedpups (Dec 7, 2006)

Honestly, I have seen PLENTY of puppies escalate after a physical or verbal correction for growling, snapping and biting for attention. In fact, I work with puppies all of the time who only want attention and to do whatever it is they want to do when they want to do it. They bite my hands, jump up to nip at my nose and lips and ears, growl and tug my clothing, and fight like crazy when I have to restrain them. They may seem "better" for a moment, only to come back for more acting worse than ever. It just takes time and patience, but it's good you know your limits and fortunately it sounds like the breeder you're working with is caring enough to take your puppy back.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

gadean said:


> MOST puppies DO NOT act like that. I am not a first time dog owner...this is not my first rodeo. Maybe I was just lucky before.


You are correct about that. I doubt there's anything wrong with the dog, but he clearly doesn't suit your needs and lifestyle. It doesn't matter how great a car a Ferrari is, if what you really need is an SUV to take the kids to soccer practice. Each is the best choice for its intended purpose, but hysterically wrong for the other. That's not a value judgment; just a recognition of reality.

If you and the pup are wrong for each other, then sending him back to the breeder is the right thing.


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

gadean said:


> But now, read this part slowly....I have a problem with a 12 week old dog that snarls and growls, snaps and bites because I am not paying attention and giving into what he wants. When you try and correct that, things escalate. MOST puppies DO NOT act like that. I am not a first time dog owner...this is not my first rodeo. Maybe I was just lucky before.


Every dog is different and for the most part your puppy seems fairly normal. If you return it and get another one, it may be the same way so that's something you should consider before giving up so easily.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Westhighlander said:


> Every dog is different and for the most part your puppy seems fairly normal. If you return it and get another one, it may be the same way so that's something you should consider before giving up so easily.


For the most part, he is a normal puppy. He just happens to really escalate and not respond to anything. He will be a great dog, no doubt about it... when he gets into the right home.

I guess snarling and growling are normal for a puppy with a type 2 temperment. Unfortunately, for my home, that does not sit well with me. I was looking more for a happy go lucky, full of play temperment. That is what I was after, and the breeder assured me of this. Guess we were both wrong....of course you never fully know until you know...I just hope he gets into a home where he fits in.


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

gadean said:


> ...she bases this on the fact that she *has had people bring dogs back to her, complaining of aggressive tendencies,* but the dogs are gems in her house.


It's very possible that the pups behave differently with her, but if she's had several people bringing *PUPPIES *back because of aggressive tendencies, then I have to wonder about her breeding program. 

I have no doubt that some people could deal with this puppy just fine, but you're absolutely right, IMO. A 12-week old puppy should NOT be acting as you describe. With *anyone*. Unless there's a temperament problem. 

Please, when you go to get another dog, concentrate of temperament testing. Read up on it and ask a lot of questions about how they do it. You have every right to get a temperament-tested puppy who is a clean slate and doesn't come with a bunch of genetic baggage (not that this is necessarily the case, but it could be). 

I would NOT, under any circumstances, take another puppy from the same breeder. I would get my money back and start another breeder hunt. There are people on here who could help with the right questions to ask, etc. 

Good luck to you!


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

FourIsCompany said:


> It's very possible that the pups behave differently with her, but if she's had several people bringing *PUPPIES *back because of aggressive tendencies, then I have to wonder about her breeding program.


I agree with this. I was thinking it was over the course of many years that some owners have brought back their puppies which is ok. Now if this is happening regularly then find another breeder. Good breeders rarely if ever have puppies returned to them.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

Your best shot at getting a non-psychotic Lab puppy is to search out dogs bred for guide and service work. These not-for-profit organizations all have their own way of doing things, so it may take some detective work. Some have in-house breeding programs, and some acquire dogs through trusted breeders. The group in my town has such a long waiting list for washout puppies that they haven't even accepted applications for a few years. Even the pups who don't make the cut are often like a whole different species, compared to your dog and mine. A friend of mine adopted a young guide dog who was retired for an easily managed medical condition. Like a furry angel, he was.

Or go with a breed like the Leonberger. They're pretty rare, but they have a reputation for being easy to be around--even as pups. Then again, most people think Labs are all laid back and gentle from birth. I know that ain't true.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Well, it has been a long and bumpy 5 weeks, but we took the dog back to the breeder. She accepted him back, and I can only hope that she does a little more testing with him before she just sells him to the next family. 

I have had a lab before from a different breeder. Night and day from this one. Tia was the most gentle, cool, laid back dog in the world...even as a young puppy. Energetic, playful, smart, but could just be on her own if you needed a break from her. Breeder was fantastic, helpful, knowledgeable. The only dogs she EVER had returned were due to allergies with family members...and I can only remember one or two dogs at the most.

Murphy was the complete other end of the doggie spectrum. He was temperment tested(allegedly). I never had a good gut feeling with this breeder and should have listened to my God given intuition. I could not say how many puppies this particular breeder has had returned...I did not want to call her to the carpet. She just said it was not the first time it has happened for this reason. I would not recommend her nor would I get a dog from her "program" again. She had 3 litters going on at the same time, plus other house dogs, and children. Poor Murphy was probably not socialized like she said she was doing...there is no way possible to give 3 litters of different timing all the attention I think they would need. I feel sorry for the little guy...he never asked us to go home and he could not help the way he was born and raised. 

I took a video of him this morning as I tried to hug him...if I knew how to post it I would. After 2 days of hugging therapy, he still would snarl and try to bite when I picked him up

I would like to thank those who agree with me that a normal lab puppy with a good temperment should not act like this. I know everyone has a different opinion on things, and I respect all of those.

Probably will need to take a break from the doggie world for a while and recover from this situation.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Anyone really think that giving this puppy a treat, or letting him just chill out with a Kong is really going to fix anything?? This was taken at 8 AM this morning, after a 2 mile walk and a good rest. We hit the road to take him back at 8:30. This, after 2 days of hugging it out of him.


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

It is, of course, impossible to evaluate a live dog over the internet, but what you're describing seems within the range of normal for a Lab puppy that age. I do agree that it is probably a failure on the breeder's part to understand what she is putting out there, and failing to match her pups with appropriate families.

I don't blame you for not wanting to deal with it, though. It's not an easy thing, and there will be no "Cesar Milan moments" where you say "ch-ch" and the pup relents.

BTW, my guy still makes the "smiley face". A soft mouth is Job #1 for a retrieving dog, and we've worked on that a good deal. This is just puppy play (with my 3 year old puppy).


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

gadean said:


> I took a video of him this morning as I tried to hug him...if I knew how to post it I would.


You can upload it to Photobucket and copy and paste the link here. 



> Probably will need to take a break from the doggie world for a while and recover from this situation.


I'm so sorry. This is very sad. I wish we could have helped more.


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## HORSEandHOUND (May 28, 2009)

I'm actually very relieved to see you took the pup back. When you are ready again, contact breed clubs and get to know the community. They can help steer you towards the perfect pup for you.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Here is a link to the video if anyone is interested...
As a side note, we took the dog back yesterday morning. We delivered the dog around 10AM. By 11 AM the same day, the dog was back up for sale on the website. No further testing as far as I can tell was done with the dog. I have no idea if the breeder would just sell this dog to just anyone, but certainly I do not think this is going to be the dog for just anyone. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNU43zxMb4


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## FourIsCompany (Apr 18, 2009)

It's hard to tell what kind of issues you'd be dealing with down the road. He wasn't just snarling and trying to bite, he was showing his teeth. Those little baby teeth turn into potential weapons real quick.


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## dakotajo (Jan 29, 2009)

that's too bad there was no bonding with this puppy, maybe he needs just that certain someone that can handle him and give him all the training he needs. The breeder probably had no problems with the pup cause there was alot of other dogs around for him to rough house with.
I never enjoyed my Bernese as a young pup either we could never play without her biting non stop and it's such a shame, there were no cuddling moments with her either, she was nutty, she never snarled or showed her teeth though. She is a year old in a week and she is shaping into a great dog She is not the mouthy beast she used to be, has her moments when people think they can play with her by slapping the sides of her mouth lightly and then she'll take one finger and hold it in her mouth until they say NO. I tell them DO NOT PLAY WITH HER MOUTH! since she is FINALLY knowing her limits. She only jumps a few times now when she is super excited to see someone she hasn't seen in a while. She still likes to pull like a [email protected]#[email protected] on walks with the normal collar but I have visions that someday we are going to be the envy of the dog walk There's still training to do but we will get there.
I have noticed though she is becoming more territorial in our yard. She's really leery of men and young teenage boys. She gets friendly towards them after awhile but then if they come over the next day the same thing happens. She barks and her hackles on the top of her head raise which looks strange and scary to these guys ( I personally never seen the hackles raising on her head or ever knew they did, do they??)


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## Westhighlander (Sep 28, 2007)

gadean said:


> Here is a link to the video if anyone is interested...
> As a side note, we took the dog back yesterday morning. We delivered the dog around 10AM. By 11 AM the same day, the dog was back up for sale on the website. No further testing as far as I can tell was done with the dog. I have no idea if the breeder would just sell this dog to just anyone, but certainly I do not think this is going to be the dog for just anyone.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNU43zxMb4


In all honesty, I didn't see too much aggression there, just a dog that is mouthy with a lot of energy. My dog did a similar thing when she was very young. She was a little mouthy but I trained her out of it over time. 

Now I did not see any growling there and my dog didn't and has never growl at me. Maybe I missed that if that was in the video.


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## Inga (Jun 16, 2007)

He sure was a cute little fart. I am sorry it didn't work out for you.


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## grrtrevier (Jun 9, 2009)

Dear Gadean, 

I have a Black Sheperd and Golden Retriever pup he does the exact same things that your pup does I feel your pain literally!! He's a smart pup and at times really sweet, and though I don't have experience in "training" dogs they all turned out alright, but I have to agree with you it gets monotonous and I'm glad that I came across you and your wife - I have to get dressed in a locked room in order to get ready for work and invariably still have teeth marks somewhere on my body and my clothing! - I have taken advice from everyone my only problem is I can't simply afford the puppy school right now - I didn't forsee the need. So much for shorts my ankles and lower legs look as if I have a skin disease! But I'm going to keep trying I'm German as well so I'll have to use that stubborness to my advantage. I'll keep you posted if I find the cure!
take care ;-)


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## Marsh Muppet (Nov 29, 2008)

I hesitate to comment on the vid clip, for fear the OP will infer that I am criticizing. I'm absolutely not. But my Golden pup was nowhere near that calm and gentle. Rusty was like a self propelled chainsaw. A really fast one.

He turned into a really nice dog, but I'm not doing another puppy until I recover from the experience.


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## gadean (Jun 3, 2009)

Marsh Muppet,
No offense taken...I never said mine was the worst puppy in the world!!
That was after a 2 mile hike and some training. No fun for me...Maybe I am just delusional, but I never had a puppy you could not even pet or love on. And money is not the sole issue here for me (the dog was not el-cheapo) but after 5 weeks and no bonding...he would not get comfortable in the house...ever. As a side note, the breeder claims that all the other puppies (except one other one) are just gems...calm and collected, just lovable. Guess I got the lemon so to speak...

The bottom line for us was having a dog that we did not bond with because he would not let you even pet him, play with him, or just want to be around. And he was constantly on us for attention, which turned into growling fits and snarling, well you know the rest.... It was 95% discipline and 5 % good memories...It really was putting a strain on things in our relationship. Could it have worked out with more time, effort, and training? Who knows...I do know that my wife is more important to me than that dog was. 

grrtrevier,
Best of luck with yours. Hope you can unlock the secret


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