# Aggressive-Dominant Newfoundland Male



## WuppyTeddy (Feb 2, 2016)

Hi,
My husband and I have a 13 month old male Newfoundland who has been dominant, vocal (in a protesting way), and stubborn since 8 weeks old, and has been actively aggressive since 6 months old. We have been taking him to puppy training classes since he was 12 weeks old and have been training him in our home dice he was 8 weeks old. Our trainer has basically said this is his personality, that he has big dominant tendencies and done aggressive tendencies, but that eventually he will grow out of it, once he's around 2 years old. She has basically said to avoid doing the things that cause issues, and he'll just have to grow out of it. 

For example: my husband and I took him to a self bathing station on Sunday. He growled, snapped his head towards our hands, barked, and snapped at us throughout the bathing. He bit my husband twice and me once during the bathing. Not hard, but enough to lightly break skin. He has been being bathed since he was 8 weeks old and has never had a scary experience in a bath. 

That same behavior in the bath the other day he also did the last time I took him to bathe without my husband, and is typical of him when he doesn't want to do something like be moved, or listen to a command (like when you tell him down, which he doesn't like). That is just the tip of the iceberg of his behaviors, but hopefully you get the idea.

He is not nuetered yet due to his breed but will be neutered Peter this month. His hips will be checked this month too, now that he's old enough to rule that out. 

I'm an experienced dog person and have worked with abused rescue dogs and trained Guide Dog puppies for Guide Dogs for the Blind, but this dog is just too much. 

Is there anything else we can do to correct this, instead of waiting it out? Thanks


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Have you tried making the bath a pleasant experience for him? Giving him lots of yummy high value treats? I mean, I've very rarely heard of a dog that likes baths.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

That's not aggression or dominance. It's fear.

I would dump the trainer (you don't wait things like this out), and learn about counter conditioning. You need a whole new training philosophy, one that engages the dog rather than forces. I would highly recommend checking out kikopup and zak george on youtube, downloading everything you can from dogstardaily.com and if you like books, Don't Shoot the Dog is a good one.


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## alphadoginthehouse (Jun 7, 2008)

How often do you take to a bathing station? Maybe he is anxious about where he is being bathed.

Also, to neuter him so young is not good for a giant breed. Typically, it's not done till 2 yrs or older, since he really hasn't finished growing yet.

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Hiraeth (Aug 4, 2015)

There's no such thing as dominance as a personality trait. People often ascribe "dominance" to dogs they haven't had success training. Your trainer telling you to wait out his issues has probably been detrimental to his behaviors - you don't wait out issues that can be helped with positive reinforcement and redirection. 

I agree with others. He sounds scared and uncomfortable. I suggest dumping your trainer, getting a new one who will actively HELP you with his issues, not tell you to wait until he's two, and working on counter conditioning. 

Also, as pointed out, neutering giant breeds before their growth plates close causes them to grown taller, 'weedier' and less muscular due to the removal of testosterone from their system. Testosterone directly influences bone health and growth. Early neuters are linked with obesity, cruciate disease, hip dysplasia and bone cancer. I'd *highly* recommend waiting until he's 2, or 18 months at a minimum. Or, if there's not a reason to, don't neuter him at all. I plan on never neutering on male GDs unless there's a medical reason I should.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Hi there!

So that's not typical Newfie behavior, but it does sound like fear. What kind of training method have you worked on with your trainer? If it's that dominance and alpha-rolling stuff, I'm afraid that probably contributed to the pup's fear. Most dogs, but News especially, do not respond well to that kind of training and it can lead to many more problems down the road. If that is what your trainer is doing, I would suggest dumping the trainer and finding one who uses more force-free positive reinforcement methods. Research has shown that the dominance stuff is not true and that method is very outdated. And, again, really not something to use on a Newf.

As for neutering, I would definitely wait until closer to 2 years. You want to wait until the growth plates have fused and that typically doesn't occur until around 18 months at least. Also, with the hip x-rays, you'll note that OFA won't consider x-rays as anything but preliminary until they're over 2 years old. Annabel's were done a WEEK before her 2nd birthday and they're still listed as only preliminary. 

I would ask your breeder about any type of aggressive behavior in the sire or dam of your pup's litter. Sweetness and gentleness are hallmarks of the breed and written into the standard as one of the most important features of the breed. Dogs with any kind of aggressive tendencies should never be bred in the first place, but if that's what happened, it can be inherited and it would be good for you to know going forward.

I also agree with everything that Amaryllis said. Definitely look up some counter conditioning and some positive reinforcement training. Newfs are incredibly soft dogs for the most part when it comes to training. And they often have no idea about their true size and power.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

My best suggestion would be to find a new trainer that will help you not only begin to work on the behavioral issues you are currently experiencing (no, dogs don't just have an epiphany & wake up one day deciding "Hey! I think I'll be a happy, compliant dog from now on.") but also one that will help you build a better relationship with him.

To me, it sounds like your entire relationship with this pup has been adversarial and combative. When he doesn't like, or want to do something and he reacts in this manner, what is your response? Push on & **make** him do it? or just give up & let him carry on as he wants? In either case, you're damaging the bond between you. If he's nervous or anxious you need to work on increasing his comfort level through positive training methods. IF he's just an 'independent thinker with ideas of his own' then your goal is to come up with ways to change your training style to make him *want* to work with you. 

In either case, what you've been doing isn't working. Don't wait - get a different, better trainer to help guide you before this goes any further.


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## WuppyTeddy (Feb 2, 2016)

Hi,
Thanks for the suggestions given. The bathing station is just an example. Bathes have always been a pleasant experience for him and he's never had a bad bath experience. When he was younger I would give him massages and treats in the bath tub, and gave him bathes regularly, so he would have a positive association He is this way most of the time, whenever he's asked to do anything he doesn't like doing (like the command "down". He will growl and snap when you tell him to "down", he sometimes does it with "sit" "off" and "no" as well). He will do this if you ask him to get off the couch, give you his toy, move over, telling him "no" to an unwanted behavior, and sometimes getting in the car. The things he doesn't mind is his food being touched and going into his kennel. He has been well socialized as a puppy, and has only ever shown mild fear at loud sudden noises (like a semi truck going over a pot hole). 
alsi, with other dogs he doesn't listen to "no". Another dog can be snapping and growling at him to back off (like in a dog park) and he will just keep at that dog, not respecting what the dog is telling him. He is doing it in a friendly way, but oblivious to the other dog telling him to back off, even as he's getting bit. He's been around other dogs since we've had him and going to dog parks that whole time too, so I just don't why he doesn't respect dog signals.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

WuppyTeddy said:


> Hi,
> Thanks for the suggestions given. The bathing station is just an example. Bathes have always been a pleasant experience for him and he's never had a bad bath experience. When he was younger I would give him massages and treats in the bath tub, and gave him bathes regularly, so he would have a positive association He is this way most of the time, whenever he's asked to do anything he doesn't like doing (like the command "down". He will growl and snap when you tell him to "down", he sometimes does it with "sit" "off" and "no" as well). He will do this if you ask him to get off the couch, give you his toy, move over, telling him "no" to an unwanted behavior, and sometimes getting in the car. The things he doesn't mind is his food being touched and going into his kennel. He has been well socialized as a puppy, and has only ever shown mild fear at loud sudden noises (like a semi truck going over a pot hole).
> alsi, with other dogs he doesn't listen to "no". Another dog can be snapping and growling at him to back off (like in a dog park) and he will just keep at that dog, not respecting what the dog is telling him. He is doing it in a friendly way, but oblivious to the other dog telling him to back off, even as he's getting bit. He's been around other dogs since we've had him and going to dog parks that whole time too, so I just don't why he doesn't respect dog signals.


What sort of training methods have you been using? This sounds like a dog that has been pushed & forced. If you don't find a way to make him WANT to work with you, you aren't going to turn this around anytime soon (if ever).

And the way he relates to other dogs has pretty much no bearing on how he relates to YOU.


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## WuppyTeddy (Feb 2, 2016)

We have been thinking of finding a new trainer, but the ones we have found in our area are above our budget ($500 - $2,000 (usually per 6 week training course) after we explain his behavior to them), or they are the type who claim to fix the dog in one session (for $600 of course), which I don't believe. 

The training he has been in is positive training. It is treat based but we stopped using treats at 6 months old because they riled him up too much, and also he stopped eating his dog food at that time. Now we just use praise. The trainer does lie the dog down on his side when he gets very aggressive and dangerous in the class, but that is to protect the humans and dogs in the class more than anything. We also did that at first when she started it, but found it didn't help too much with him, and now he will just attempt to bite you so we can't. 

We don't have a good relationship with the breeder and she wasn't honest with us, so asking about his parents wouldn't be helpful. I'm sure she'd come back saying they were the most friendly and sweet newfs in the world (which is what she told us before we bought him, we were also supposed to see the parents, which never happened).


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> That's not aggression or dominance. It's fear.
> 
> I would dump the trainer (you don't wait things like this out), and learn about counter conditioning. *You need a whole new training philosophy, one that engages the dog rather than forces.* I would highly recommend checking out kikopup and zak george on youtube, downloading everything you can from dogstardaily.com and if you like books, Don't Shoot the Dog is a good one.



this^^^ (needed to add more)


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## WuppyTeddy (Feb 2, 2016)

I will look up all those YouTubes/downloads/books. You are all correct that it has become combative, and he was never an suggley, lovable puppy from the start, so I think we got off on a bad foot as well. We were also getting tired of putting our life on hold to wait until he was 2 and magically better. We're even postponing having a child because he's not safe to be in the same house as a baby. We got him when we did so that he would be an adult dog before a baby came, but now we're waiting even longer until he is an acceptable family dog. 

The hip check now is to check if hip pain could be the cause of this behavior, since the first time he ever snapped (at 5 months old) was when his back end was lifted. If he has hip dysphasia bad enough to be causing pain enough to effect behavior I think it should show up in x rays now.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

WuppyTeddy said:


> We have been thinking of finding a new trainer, but the ones we have found in our area are above our budget ($500 - $2,000 (usually per 6 week training course) after we explain his behavior to them), or they are the type who claim to fix the dog in one session (for $600 of course), which I don't believe.
> 
> The training he has been in is positive training. It is treat based but we stopped using treats at 6 months old because they riled him up too much, and also he stopped eating his dog food at that time. Now we just use praise. *The trainer does lie the dog down on his side when he gets very aggressive and dangerous in the class, but that is to protect the humans and dogs in the class more than anything. We also did that at first when she started it, but found it didn't help too much with him, and now he will just attempt to bite you so we can't. *
> 
> We don't have a good relationship with the breeder and she wasn't honest with us, so asking about his parents wouldn't be helpful. I'm sure she'd come back saying they were the most friendly and sweet newfs in the world (which is what she told us before we bought him, we were also supposed to see the parents, which never happened).


its unfortunate the trainer was wrong in their methods and set your pup in the wrong direction. Good pup still underneath the bad learning. Need to rebuild trust changing how you engage.. get them to have value in you, and want to work with you, do it them selves instead of fighting and winning over you trying to force them to do it.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

Imagine showing up to your first day at a job. You sit down at your desk and go to log onto your computer. The boss comes over and says "No!" and waits until you stop, then leaves. You open a drawer, the boss comes over and says "No!" And waits until you stop opening it, then leaves. You pick up a pen, and the boss comes over and, again, says "No!" and waits for you to drop the pen before leaving. 

Your boss never explains what he wants you to do, or praises you for doing something good - he just yells at you when you do something he doesn't want. 

I'm not saying this is necessarily what is happening with your dog, but I think you should keep this in mind. Even if the way you have been handling him isn't exactly like that scenario, I suspect there is some lack of communication/understanding happening here. If he isn't responding to basic commands then you should start over with the basics. Was he taught to sit by pushing his butt down? Because that isn't considered a positive reinforcement way of training. How did you teach him the command 'down', or 'off' - it seems like he has a very negative connotation with those commands.

Treat him whenever you see him doing anything that isn't bad. Laying down quietly? Treat. Looking at you when you say his name? Treat. And so on. This will start to teach him the things that gets him praise. 

It sounds like he was pushed along in training too fast, and that his signals when he is uncomfortable with something were ignored (not necessarily on purpose, but ignored nonetheless). Just because you gave him treats in the bath tub doesn't mean he was comfortable, and it's different being in the tub versus actually getting a bath, and getting a bath at home versus a station.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

If there are hip issues going on that would go along with not following commands that require movement in that area.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I may be wrong, but I don't think Newfs are know for being interested in OB, your not going to get the enthusiasm for ob that you would get from other breeds. They newfs can learn to but it's not going to be the same as other more enthusiastic type breeds.. My LGD dogs learned the basics but he also wanted to lay down and sleep the entire class after the first 10 minutes... just not his thing


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

WuppyTeddy said:


> Hi,
> My husband and I have a 13 month old male Newfoundland who has been dominant, vocal (in a protesting way), and stubborn since 8 weeks old, and has been actively aggressive since 6 months old. We have been taking him to puppy training classes since he was 12 weeks old and have been training him in our home dice he was 8 weeks old. Our trainer has basically said this is his personality, that he has big dominant tendencies and done aggressive tendencies, but that eventually he will grow out of it, once he's around 2 years old. She has basically said to avoid doing the things that cause issues, and he'll just have to grow out of it.
> 
> 
> For example: my husband and I took him to a self bathing station on Sunday. He growled, snapped his head towards our hands, barked, and snapped at us throughout the bathing. He bit my husband twice and me once during the bathing. Not hard, but enough to lightly break skin. He has been being bathed since he was 8 weeks old and has never had a scary experience in a bath.


I would not avoid them, I would keep on with them. At some point, he has to learn that things that are not pleasant will happen throughout his life, that's just a cold, hard fact. My dog HATED being brushed when he was a puppy and I mean HATED, he did many of the things you are explaining, biting, growling, mouthing, squirming etc ... when he would, I would turn his head back to facing the front and tell him "no sir!" in a firm, raised voice, rinse and repeat.



> That same behavior in the bath the other day he also did the last time I took him to bathe without my husband, and is typical of him when he doesn't want to do something like be moved, or listen to a command (like when you tell him down, which he doesn't like). That is just the tip of the iceberg of his behaviors, but hopefully you get the idea.
> 
> He is not nuetered yet due to his breed but will be neutered Peter this month. His hips will be checked this month too, now that he's old enough to rule that out.
> 
> ...


If he is doing this when you instruct him to do something, have him wear a leash in the house, not a long one, long enough for you to be able to get ahold of it, if you tell him "off" and he defies you, you can take hold of the leash and guide him off ,I would also give a no reward marker word (I use "no sir!" in a firm, raised voice) as you repeat the "down" command or whatever cue you use.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

ireth0 said:


> If there are hip issues going on that would go along with not following commands that require movement in that area.


Agreed. Newfs already don't love doing downs even if their hips are fine. It's a lot of bulk to move around. Annabel will often grumble if we ask her to down too many times.

The pinning on the side that you describe is, unfortunately, NOT positive reinforcement. Or good for the dog. First off, if it IS a hip problem that's causing him pain, pinning him is going to make that pain way worse AND basically make him terrified of whoever is doing the pinning because it hurts. Even if it isn't a hip pain problem, pinning is scary and seriously uncomfortable for dogs. You really should go back to treats. Treats riling up a young dog is pretty much normal and you really should use that to help teach things like impulse control and manners. Look up the trainers and books that others have recommended for techniques on properly using treats. You're going to have to basically start from scratch to try and build a new relationship with the pup.

I do agree with getting x-rays now to see what condition the hips are in. It sounds like the breeder you went to wasn't exactly the best and there's definitely a possibility of dysplasia, I'm afraid. However, I really think it would be ill-advised to neuter now. You really want this pup to have all their proper hormones to have the best chance of growing properly.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

PatriciafromCO said:


> I may be wrong, but I don't think Newfs are know for being interested in OB, your not going to get the enthusiasm for ob that you would get from other breeds. They newfs can learn to but it's not going to be the same as other more enthusiastic type breeds.. My LGD dogs learned the basics but he also wanted to lay down and sleep the entire class after the first 10 minutes... just not his thing


Typically, this can be the case, yeah. Annabel's a bit of a fluke in that she loooooves running around and mucking about on agility equipment and is actually pretty focused on training. HOWEVER, Newfs don't actually calm down and chill out into cough potatoes until they're around 3 years old. Like most giant breeds, of course. Which is why, yes, they make GREAT family dogs and are great with kids (if properly socialized), but they all start out as typical puppies with the biting (luckily it's usually with a pretty soft mouth even to begin with) and the jumping and the whining and the zoomies. They just turn into 100 pound puppies which is not what people expect.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

OwnedbyACDS, that's what they've been doing, and he's biting. With all due respect, this isn't working and recommending more of the same isn't helping. There's also the issue that the dog may well have HD and may be reacting out of pain, which has nothing to do with training.

So, hearing that he may have HD, that needs to be sorted first thing. If he's in pain, you cannot treat that as a training issue. If you broke your leg and I asked you to get up and walk to the kitchen get me a coffee, what would your reaction be? That may well be what you're asking your dog to do.

You cannot train on praise alone with 99% of dogs. There needs to be a reward, and rare is the dog that finds praise to be rewarding enough to do anything at all. Find treats that aren't that exciting, maybe even just use his kibble. My dog loses his mind in the presence of food, so I get you there. I just use his kibble to train, unless I'm training recall or counter conditioning, in which case I do use treats. (Basically, if I need him to think, I use kibble. If I don't need thought out of him, treats.)

One thing you need to realize is that it doesn't matter what you think is frightening or rewarding. It's what the dog finds frightening or rewarding. You don't have to understand what he finds frightening, you just need to understand that he does and work from there.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

My dog has this lickity stick ... it basically looks like ban roll on deodorant, but it might as well be doggy crack, because he will do ANYTHING for it LOL, which is to my advantage. This is also why he will basically let me do anything to him ... because he knows A) I am not going to hurt him, or allow him to be hurt and B) he knows he gets a yummy treat when it's all said and done.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Some dogs will come back at physical force and corrections (like making him lie down on his side) with physical force of their own. It sounds like your puppy might be in this group, although no one can really say on the internet. 

I agree with the others that you need to get the hip issue answered. Because physical pain can cause irritable behavior as well as being... well, painful. So you need to get that sorted out.

In the meantime, I would personally go back to using treats in training and agree with others to read about counter conditioning. What you're doing now isn't working, don't just do more of it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

$2,000 for a six week course of owner-handled group classes ??? 

hmmm .. for that kind of money, Jesus himself must be the instructor.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> $2,000 for a six week course of owner-handled group classes ???
> 
> hmmm .. for that kind of money, Jesus himself must be the instructor.


it might be the area (I know prices vary) but here its like $125 for 6 weeks of group classes.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

Impossible to 'diagnose' over the internet and seconding getting a vet check first to rule out pain or any medical issue. But barring that, it sounds like a dog who is used to getting whatever he wants in life and then demanding it if he doesn't. The couch example that you listed is one. It is great that you started him with reinforcement based training. But positive does not mean permissive and a lot of times that can fall through the cracks in training... I think it would be a good idea to do some NILF (nothing in life is free) training with him. That means he needs to work for EVERYTHING including food, access to desirable locations, attention, etc. If getting him off furniture is a problem and he doesn't always come off when asked, he should be dragging a leash. If he is doing something undesirable, you are then able to gently lead him somewhere else without needing to 'command' him, and give him something appropriate and rewarding to work on there, like a stuffed kong. 

Even if pushy-dog is not the root of your problem, given the circumstances NILF wouldn't hurt anyway.


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## WuppyTeddy (Feb 2, 2016)

Hi everyone,
Thanks for the ideas, and here's an update on Teddy: 

He was neutered last Wednesday, and although he's not supposed to calm down for 6 weeks it seems to have calmed him already. Obviously it could be that he's in pain from the surgery and just not putting up the fight he usually does because of that, but his personality is gentler and more willing, and he listens much faster with only mild protests most of the time. And this is when being in confinement and not able to be in the yard like he's used to. We are thinking he had testosterone over load before, and even though there is still the residual testosterone left, the fact that there's not more being produced has taken the dominate edge off, especially with me (a female). 

I looked into counter conditioning and it is what we were doing all along, apart from the training classes. It's the way I naturally work with animals. Like I'd said originally in my post, I've rescued several dogs and trained guide dog puppies for Guide Dogs for the Blind, so I'm not new to dogs or training consistently, but Teddy has been a difficult case. It's definitely not fear motivating him, because he is happy himself when doing the behaviors, up until he shows aggression and dominance, and those were only when he didn't want to do something, although he's never had a negative experience in his life and not been allowed to do as he wants without being told it's ok and having to sit first (he's made to sit before doing anything except entering his kennel (eating, going outside, being petted, most things) ) I've talked to a few additional trainers, and when I was able to fully explain they all recommended neutering and that it was a dominant, pushy personality issue. It's hard to give all the facts over a forum, so I understand how people here might not understand my knowledge and experience level, and assume I'm making a lot of basic mistakes and have not trained correctly, given his continued behavior. 

So anyway, hopefully the change after neutering is real and we can continue training on a positive note once he is not sore anymore. And, yeah, the training cost is due to the area we live in, it's extremely expensive for everything, except gas which is cheaper than everywhere else. 

Thanks again for everyone's ideas.


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