# Should dogs be given up the first moment they bite/snap?



## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Hi guys,

It's been a long time since I've been around this forum. Some days ago, I was in another forum (not about dogs thought), when a topic related to dogs came up. Then I've found some post that I couldn't help but comment about it. The person didn't like my tone when I commented on what she said, but I couldn't find a nicer way to disagree with her. She was saying that she had 2 terriers, which were well trained and taken care of, but she gave up and even considered PTS one of them, when they bit some children on the face unprovoked. She didn't tell much details, just that the dogs went to the children from under the table and bit them on their face (marked but didn't draw blood) even in her presence. She said that she didn't want to risk it.

I had to comment on what she wrote, not exactly coz of her case, but rather coz her posts were promoting the idea that any dog that bit or snapped for the first time should be given up or even PTS.

First, dogs has teeth. With better temperament (specially through selective breeding), they might have less chance to ever show aggression such as growling or snapping, but aggression is an instinctual response that can be shown for many reasons (territorial defense, fear, resource guarding, and so on) and a natural thing in dogs. Not to say that aggression is acceptable, but a person that gets a dog should keep in mind of such possibility and be prepared to know how to address it, and not abandon every single dog for any snapping/biting that comes to happen. If we don't want to risk it, we just don't get a dog.

Also, I didn't comment much on her situation since she didn't say much about it, but I find it hard to believe that she was experienced enough and dealt with the situation the best way (I didn't say this there since it's not a dog forum). First, owners should be careful when they allow their dogs to interact with unfamiliar people, specially children in the first times. Maybe they are well behaved when they are with their owners, but they might get fearful or territorial when they see unfamiliar people. This can be dealt by socialization, or being more careful when meeting new people. But these dogs were around the children and they bit from under the table.
Also, one might say it's unprovoked. I find this a frequent reason for dog bites and attacks from inexperienced people who usually misses the crucial signs.

IMO, I wouldn't give up my dogs just for the first time small offense. Being my owner, it's my responsibility to understand my dogs and be able to predict their behaviors and reaction for a certain extend, and then keep other people safe. Also, it's my responsibility to acknowledge dogs' nature and instincts, and know how to educate them accordingly. This is not a full blown attack or extreme case, just a bite and it was their first time. Was it really a lost case? Should they really be given up for the sake of not risking anymore?

There's always a risk when getting dogs. Socialization and habituation, as well as training minimizes risk. Getting a dog that has good temperament through selective breeding also helps. But if we want 0% risk, we might not want to have dogs at all.


I'm sorry for all this rant, it's just kind of upsetting, seeing posts promoting that dogs should be given up for the slightest aggression they show right away...

What are you guys' thoughts?? I don't know what to say to that person anymore, or for people who thinks that way...


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

I don't agree with "giving up" a dog who bites. Give it up to who? Rehome it? It would be very difficult to rehome a dog with a bite history. The only option if you no longer want the dog is PTS imo.

I don't think I would have my dogs PTS if they bit a child, but I'm not going to judge people who do. I have the time and know-how to deal with a dog with issues, but not everyone does. And not everyone is willing to risk it. What if you have a dog who has issues with babies crawling on the floor, and you happen to have a baby? Obviously you can't risk your child, but should you then keep the dog outside or locked up at all times for several years until the kid is older? How is that fair on the dog? And people with babies usually have limited time and energy, so you can't just say they should re-train the dog or manage it and be able to spare the time while their baby is sleeping to spend with the dog etc. 

It's too simplistic to say it's wrong to PTS a dog who bites. And there's a difference between a dog biting for a very clear reason, like a toddler approaching the dog with a big, juicy bone, and there's biting for no apparent reason (at least to the untrained eye). It's easy to say it's wrong to PTS a dog who defended itself or guarded a bone and the owner was stupid and didn't supervise the kid. But when all the kid did was sit at the table and eat and the dog hung around and then suddenly bit the kid? Of course there could be more to it than that, but I would say any dog who does that has some serious issues. 

And not everyone can afford to work with a behaviourist. So many different factors come into it and you can't just say "it's wrong" or "it's lazy" or "they don't care about their dog".


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Of course, there might be many reasons that might be legitimate, but shouldn't an owner be conscious of the possibility of a dog biting, and then know how to avoid it (training and socialization plus management) and how to deal with it if it ever happens? Giving up a dog just for the first small offense doesn't make sense.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Biting kids in the face unprovoked isn't a small offense imo. Of course they may have been provoked and there could be more to the story that she didn't tell you, but if she thought it was unprovoked when in fact it wasn't, chances are she doesn't know how to deal with it. Either she didn't socialise or train the dogs properly, she didn't manage them properly around the kids or she didn't manage the kids properly around the dogs.

My dogs have some issues too, but I can't imagine any scenario where they would bite a kid in the face. That would take some extreme provocation to get to that point. Any dog who would do that must have some problem I think. Of course the problem probably isn't the dog's fault, like lack of socialisation, but that doesn't mean it's not a serious issue. 

I think I would have some serious thinking to do about my dogs if they bit a kid unprovoked. Not saying I would PTS, but if it was my own kid I might consider it, for the safety of the kid. If it was someone else's kid, they might demand that the dog be PTS. If they didn't, chances are my dogs would be declared dangerous, which in my country/state means I would be paying hundreds of dollars per year to register the dog, and it would have to wear a muzzle and a dangerous dog collar in public. They would never again be allowed around kids, never again allowed on any training grounds, I would always be suspicious of them around people, and what if I wanted kids one day?

I think the incident you described is pretty serious.

Yes, everyone should research basic dog things before they get a dog, but unfortunately that doesn't always happen.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

By small offense I meant it was a simple one time bite that did not draw blood. It could be a kid, or even an adult. I wasn't seeing it as the human's perspective, but rather the level of aggression. If we see it in a human point of view, then it is as you said, a serious offense. (maybe "offense" is the wrong word)

I'm not sure if those kids where theirs, I get a hunch that the kids were not theirs but rather as guests, and the dogs were unfamiliar with them. If that's really true, then was it really necessary to give the dogs up? Although maybe the kids come around often.

If it was my own kid, I would also have some serious thinking too. Yet it would never be so lightly as "they have to go or maybe even PTS for the smallest display of aggression even if it's just for the first time, for whatever reason". I'd think if I could really educate my dog out of it, I would supervise and avoid the possibility as much as I can while he gets educated (based on what I know about aggression and my own dog's temperament), and so on. Dogs might always come 2nd when it comes to safety, but they shouldn't be too easily disposable.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well truth be told it's a personal decision, if it truly is an unprovoked bite it's pretty tough when gambling with children.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Was just rereading the comments on the other forum, and while not sure what happened to one of the dogs, what happened to the other dog is that he lunged out from a table and bid a friend's child on the face, when the child was just walking across a room, while the owner was present.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Its a gamble having a dog period. You never have control and you can never train for every situation. My thoughts it's what you do when something like this happens, truly determines the future of the dogs behavior. What is the full picture of learning from the event start to end. You freak out or beat into the dog over this and might as well hang it up for now having a dog that is fearful of humans putting their face into theirs. (Fear is the Mind Killer)

trying to visualize a terrier coming out from under a table and bitting a child in the face while sitting at the table? Could be possible if the child leaned over in the chair into the dogs face from a high position. Dogs don't miss and when they do it saids a lot for the better of the dog. should be an eye opener for the owner that training in that area is needed. But if the owner is set in the negative of the behavior they are not capable of helping the dog, the dog is better in a different home then with that owner


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

sheep said:


> Was just rereading the comments on the other forum, and while not sure what happened to one of the dogs, what happened to the other dog is that he lunged out from a table and bid a friend's child on the face, when the child was just walking across a room, while the owner was present.


but you can't say what happens in some ones home.. When we were kids and go with my parents to their grown up friends house. My parents would drive and see that their friends had dogs. My dad would turn around and look at us and say, they have dogs DON'T get them in trouble, they are not your dogs and you don't know what they know. I loved the world when people saw dogs as mindless animals and not the fluffy cute family members. that is not a discredit to the dogs intelligence, but it made it easier for humans to be more mindful.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

PatriciafromCO said:


> but you can't say what happens in some ones home.. When we were kids and go with my parents to their grown up friends house. My parents would drive and see that their friends had dogs. My dad would turn around and look at us and say, they have dogs DON'T get them in trouble,* they are not your dogs and you don't know what they know. I loved the world when people saw dogs as mindless animals and not the fluffy cute family members. *that is not a discredit to the dogs intelligence, but it made it easier for humans to be more mindful.


Of course nowadays it's the kids who have become mindless animals. 

Oh my I'm probably gonna get in trouble now.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Would I rehome my dog/put him to sleep if he bit a kid in the face and didn't draw blood? No. Maybe I'd feel differently if it were MY kid and lived in the same home as the dog (although I'd still not PTS after one offence of level 3 or below), but in this situation, the kid was a guest. This was a first offense and the dog showed enough bite inhibition that it didn't draw blood even on the thin delicate skin of a child's face. If I were truly concerned, I'd bring an expert in to evaluate the dog. No matter what, when the child visited, the dog would be crated and the child told to leave the dog alone. I seriously doubt that this bite was unprovoked... there was probably some fear or resource guarding going on.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> Its a gamble having a dog period. You never have control and you can never train for every situation. My thoughts it's what you do when something like this happens, truly determines the future of the dogs behavior. What is the full picture of learning from the event start to end. You freak out or beat into the dog over this and might as well hang it up for now having a dog that is fearful of humans putting their face into theirs. (Fear is the Mind Killer)


Exactly... We as owners should be aware that there is always a risk, and know how to avoid or deal with possible situations. We might not all be experts, but at least the basics of management and training.



PatriciafromCO said:


> trying to visualize a terrier coming out from under a table and bitting a child in the face while sitting at the table? Could be possible if the child leaned over in the chair into the dogs face from a high position. Dogs don't miss and when they do it saids a lot for the better of the dog. should be an eye opener for the owner that training in that area is needed. But if the owner is set in the negative of the behavior they are not capable of helping the dog, the dog is better in a different home then with that owner


After rereading the posts from the other person, the terrier was actually coming from under the table, and then bit the child that was passing through a room. I'm not sure of the details, but it could be that the dog that was not familiar with the kid was perceiving the kid as a threat and acting territorial. Maybe what the other person meant as unprovoked is that there were no prior perceivable signs that could show any hostility towards the child. The dog might have avoided the kid but not seemed insecure, and then lunged when he saw him passing by.



PatriciafromCO said:


> but you can't say what happens in some ones home.. When we were kids and go with my parents to their grown up friends house. My parents would drive and see that their friends had dogs. My dad would turn around and look at us and say, they have dogs DON'T get them in trouble, they are not your dogs and you don't know what they know. I loved the world when people saw dogs as mindless animals and not the fluffy cute family members. that is not a discredit to the dogs intelligence, but it made it easier for humans to be more mindful.


When I was a kid too, my parents used to tell us how we should be careful when seeing dogs that we are not familiar with. Also, the adults that are owners would be careful about their dogs wondering around guests, specially children. And no one ever talked about considering of PTSing a dog for a bite. If a dog ever bit a child once, what they do would be management, by restricting the dog's freedom while guests are around. That was how things were back then, everyone basically acknowledged dogs as dogs, were forgiving about a bite or so, but were careful after anything happened and of course before (not letting too much freedom around guests until dog proved that he was safe enough, but even so, never around young children and even unsupervised).


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

lil_fuzzy said:


> And people with babies usually have limited time and energy, so you can't just say they should re-train the dog or manage it and be able to spare the time while their baby is sleeping to spend with the dog etc.


Huh? Isn't that what should happen? Dog has an issue - issue needs to be worked on. 

To me, it's called owning a dog just like having a child. Both need to be taught and raised and if there's issues, they need to be dealt with.




lil_fuzzy said:


> It's too simplistic to say it's wrong to PTS a dog who bites. And there's a difference between a dog biting for a very clear reason, like a toddler approaching the dog with a big, juicy bone, and there's biting for no apparent reason (at least to the untrained eye).


If I gave up Wally the instant he snapped at someone/something I wouldn't have him now. Of course, he was fearful and instead of saying "get this dog away from me", I worked with him - not being a professional of any kind, and now he's wonderful. I can't afford to work with a behaviorist, so I looked up "how to help fearful dogs" read links, learned counterconditioning (which isn't hard, seriously), and attacked the problem - and I work an average of 14 hrs a day.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

It depends entirely on the context, I can't make a blanket "yes" or "no" answer to the question in the title as asked.

I am always suspicious of "unprovoked" bites involving children, however. I think it's rare that a bite is truly unprovoked, more likely that the adults in the situation don't observe or recognize what the provocation was. And children are not always able to articulate exactly what happened, plus they aren't always truthful especially if they realized they did something wrong.

Dogs who are nervous or fearful of children, or children who tease dogs, are a situation where a lot of dogs get the short end of the stick, IMO when it's something that I personally would address or even simply manage (especially for visiting children, there's no reason for them to be around my dog at all.)

A colleague told me a story many years ago about a dog that was presented for euthanasia for biting a child in the family "unprovoked," which was very uncharacteristic behavior for this dog but the owner didn't want to take any chances. At the last minute, the technician holding the dog for the injection was petting it and noticed that she felt something weird in the dog's ear. There were something like three or four staples in the dog's ear. Which means that poor dog didn't bite until the fourth or fifth one.  The dog went to a new home after that IIRC. When I was a child, one of our neighbors had this wonderful, easygoing black lab. The kind that just laid by their door all day and all of us kids would visit him and pet him and stuff. One day when he was getting fairly on in years, I leaned over him and hugged him really hard, and he snapped at me. Thank goodness his owner realized that was, in fact, "provoked" and instead of getting mad at either me or him just explained what had happened and that I shouldn't do that again. Two situations where the owner's perception of what is "provoked" AND reliance on a child's description of what happened that could have gone very badly for the dogs under a zero tolerance policy.


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## Amaryllis (Dec 28, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Of course nowadays it's the kids who have become mindless animals.
> 
> Oh my I'm probably gonna get in trouble now.


Please, I thoroughly agree with you.

Look, a dog who truly does bite "unprovoked" should be put to sleep. But 999 times out of 1,000, dogs don't bite for no reason. The fact of the matter is, people expect their dog to be a stuffed animal and take anything the kids throw at it and also train their dog not to give warning. How many times have we, on this board, heard the following two statements:

1. I *can't *teach my kids not to bother the dog.

and

2. I'm not going to have some dog growling at me!

Congratulations, you just ensured your children will be bitten with no warning. Good for you.

I was bitten in the face by the family dog. I totally deserved it, which my mother made sure to tell me. Repeatedly. Guess what I never did again? Put my face right next to a dog eating his dinner, that's what.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I *can't *teach my kids not to bother the dog.


Yes indeed I guess in most cases they must think the dog is actually smarter than the kids (most cases true) because they don't want the dog to bother the kids. Hmmmm, a conundrum


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Unprovoked attacks can be caused by neurological issues, which is rare. But in this case, maybe the fact that it was the dog that went to the child walking around that made the owner think it was unprovoked. But territorial aggression can be the reason behind.

I wish that less people would go for the Disney fluffy thing too, it's important to realize that dogs are living beings. And of course, stop thinking that dogs should be in complete submission at the mercy of the kids or anyone else. It's unacceptable for a dog to bite, but it's not worth the risk, and then animals do deserve a bit of respect.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> Was just rereading the comments on the other forum, and while not sure what happened to one of the dogs, what happened to the other dog is that he lunged out from a table and bid a friend's child on the face, when the child was just walking across a room, while the owner was present.


I would consider PTS for that. If it was my kid... then yes, probably the dog would be PTS or (hopefully) placed in another home without kids where the new owner was fully apprised of the situation and willing to retrain the issue. It sounds like the dog was guarding the 'den' under the table. I don't have the experience to handle an "aggressive" dog and keep children safe, way too risky. If it wasn't my kid though I would just triple safety measures with the dog and start retraining with a behaviourist (probably).

A child's safety (mine or anyone else's) comes before the dog. Only when you can ensure the first should retraining the second be considered IMO.


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

I think every snap or bite needs to be evaluated individually. There are so many factors that need to be considered, that making a blanket statement just doesn't work.

When I was young (11 or 12), I was on the receiving end of an "unprovoked" dog bite. After learning more about dogs, I can understand that the bite was in many ways very predictable. The dog was a GSD puppy (maybe 9-11 months) and probably not from the best of situations (SPCA or BYB). The family was a single mom with two pre-teen boys and I know that the dog didn't get nearly the physical or mental exercise he needed. 

One afternoon, he was tethered outside and "supervised" by two 13-year-old boys who were setting off firecrackers. When I sped past the yard on my roller skates, he likely was already agitated (scared? anxious?). I must have seemed like a giant toy to him rolling past, body swaying and arms flailing. I don't think I stood a chance. Some poor doctor had to go to the ER on Super Bowl Sunday to stitch up my arm.

I do think that the dog either had an unstable temperament or quickly associated me with the scary firecrackers. Two days after the bite, I walked past his house on my way home from school and he attacked me again. That time, thanks to a heavy coat, there was no broken skin or stitches involved. After that incident, the family rehomed the dog.



wvasko said:


> Yes indeed I guess in most cases they must think the dog is actually smarter than the kids (most cases true) because they don't want the dog to bother the kids. Hmmmm, a conundrum


We lived next to a family where the dog was infinitely smarter than anyone else in the house. The parents would allow their young child to roam the neighborhood unsupervised; it was the dog that kept the kid from wandering into the busy street.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

aiw said:


> I would consider PTS for that. If it was my kid... then yes, probably the dog would be PTS or (hopefully) placed in another home without kids where the new owner was fully apprised of the situation and willing to retrain the issue. It sounds like the dog was guarding the 'den' under the table. I don't have the experience to handle an "aggressive" dog and keep children safe, way too risky. If it wasn't my kid though I would just triple safety measures with the dog and start retraining with a behaviourist (probably).
> 
> A child's safety (mine or anyone else's) comes before the dog. Only when you can ensure the first should retraining the second be considered IMO.


Hmm but if PTS would be considered right after the first bite/snap on your own children no matter the circumstances, then wouldn't it be better to just not have dogs at all while you have young children at home? After all, there's no 100% safety when we bring a live being with teeth home, and PTS it for not being able to deal with it or is too afraid of risks doesn't really make it safe (there's always the possibility of the 1st bite).


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Not no matter the circumstances. If the kid is taunting or hurting the dog, the its the kid who needs retraining. I don't have kids now but I plan on teaching them some dog sense, how to safely approach and handle but if what the poster is saying is true the kid didn't do anything wrong, just walked by. I love my dog but I won't have a dog who feels the need to guard (to the point of unprovoked biting) a common area of my house or another scenario I've heard of guarding the parent from the child. And we are not talking about the probability of the first bite, we are talking about the probability of the second bite which could be more severe. 

I am not against working through issues, even aggression related. We had a Bernese who bit someone entering our property who was yelling at me. The dog misjudged, didn't break the skin and was called off easily. We started with very strict management and started retraining. The difference there is all the variables were under our control (when and how strangers enter) and it wasn't an everyday occurrence that provoked the bite. Also, no kids were involved and as much as you can train a kid, they are by nature unpredictable and naive.

Dogs and kids can be a great combination, and it is always a gamble but there are levels of risk and expecting my kid not to walk by the kitchen table is too high for me. I can't say for sure whether the dog would be PTS or retrained (depending on the dog and kid involved) but it would be a consideration.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Snapping is a good thing, like growling. If the dog meant to bite the person he wouldn't have missed . 

Biting, I think, depends on the situation. My grandpa's Schnauzer bit us all the time. If we messed with his food or teased him or touched him in a way he didn't want to be touched, he bit. But he never drew blood. This is "good biting" (not to say it shouldn't be worked on, but the dog is likely not especially dangerous). However, if a dog's first bite takes someone's face off (or another mauling situation), the dog is probably unstable, and most likely should be PTS (unless there are extenuating circumstances). Somewhere in between--drawing blood but not mauling--needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis.

ETA: "drawing blood" does not include scratches from sharp teeth. Those don't count. I mean puncture wounds--the dog _meant_ to draw blood.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

lil_fuzzy said:


> I don't agree with "giving up" a dog who bites. Give it up to who? Rehome it? It would be very difficult to rehome a dog with a bite history. The only option if you no longer want the dog is PTS imo.
> 
> I don't think I would have my dogs PTS if they bit a child, but I'm not going to judge people who do. I have the time and know-how to deal with a dog with issues, but not everyone does. And not everyone is willing to risk it. What if you have a dog who has issues with babies crawling on the floor, and you happen to have a baby? Obviously you can't risk your child, but should you then keep the dog outside or locked up at all times for several years until the kid is older? How is that fair on the dog? And people with babies usually have limited time and energy, so you can't just say they should re-train the dog or manage it and be able to spare the time while their baby is sleeping to spend with the dog etc.
> 
> ...


I judge, a dog is "forever" not just til they stop being convenient. I am from the school that a dog will never bite without probable cause, just because the owner wasnt observant enough to see it doesnt mean that there wasnt a warning sign or more. I mean you wouldnt give up your kid because they got into a fight with another kid, would you? to me its the same thing, a dog is a breathing, living being with thoughts & feelings of its own too who has been scientificly proven to have the intelligence (in come cases) of up to a 5 y/o child.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

The problem is that children are involved here. Yes, the kids need to learn how to handle a dog, but this is a toddler and you can't expect it to read a dog better than many adults. Its easy (and right) to say, don't bother the dog when eating/sleeping, no hitting or hurting but its much harder to expect a toddler to understand resource guarding and the complexities of it. Supervision is key with any dog but with a potentially dangerous one, the only safe thing to do is not put the dog or kid in the position to get hurt. I think its okay to make a hard choice based on safety.


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

KBLover said:


> Huh? Isn't that what should happen? Dog has an issue - issue needs to be worked on.
> 
> To me, it's called owning a dog just like having a child. Both need to be taught and raised and if there's issues, they need to be dealt with.
> 
> ...


Of course, I'm just saying that you can't judge someone for not having the time, money or energy to work on a dog with issues when they also have a baby. In some cases it makes sense to work on these issues, and in others it doesn't. It depends on the person and dog involved. Say for example that it was a single mother with a colicky baby who also suffered from post partum depression. You can't just tell her "your dog has issues, work on it". It's not that easy. Especially not if the dog has an issue with babies and can't be in the same room as a crawling baby, which means the dog would be locked up so the baby isn't in danger. When is the mother going to work with the dog?

But someone else might have the most placid baby and the whole family available to help and they're running around as if they never even went through childbirth, for someone like that it's easy to tell them they have to work with the dog.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Well, in THIS particular situation, the kid and dog don't live together -- the kid was a guest. It's not hard to put your dogs away when a kid is visiting. Also, that bite was a level 2 at most... not something worth putting a dog to sleep over. As Dunbar says:



> Levels 1 and 2 comprise well over 99% of dog incidents. The dog is certainly not dangerous and more likely to be fearful, rambunctious, or out of control. Wonderful prognosis. Quickly resolve the problem with basic training (control) — especially oodles of Classical Conditioning, numerous repetitive Retreat n' Treat, some/Sit/Food Reward and Backup/Approach/Food Reward sequences, progressive desensitization handling exercises, plus numerous bite-inhibition exercises and games.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

If the kid was a guest then the answer is simple, keep the dog in another room when kids are in the house and work on desensitization.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

This is why kids aren't allowed at my gatherings , this is my dogs house too as well as mine so they are in every aspect of my social life lol


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## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

Snapping and/or biting is a valid reason to put a dog down, even for a first offence. That's my opinion.


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

jersey_gray said:


> Snapping and/or biting is a valid reason to put a dog down, even for a first offence. That's my opinion.


Wow. I hope for your sake that your dog is never in pain and snaps at someone, or is terrified and snaps at someone, or accidentally redirects on a person when snapping at another dog, or experiences any of the myriad other things that can make a dog snap or deliver an inhibited bite. 

I don't understand completely black and white thinking like that. I guess a dog is just never, ever allowed to have a bad day, huh? Funny how people expect impeccable behavior from a dog when they make mistakes and do things they regret all of the time.


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## edenorchards (Nov 13, 2012)

Crantastic said:


> Wow. I hope for your sake that your dog is never in pain and snaps at someone, or is terrified and snaps at someone, or accidentally redirects on a person when snapping at another dog, or experiences any of the myriad other things that can make a dog snap or deliver an inhibited bite.
> 
> I don't understand completely black and white thinking like that. I guess a dog is just never, ever allowed to have a bad day, huh? Funny how people expect impeccable behavior from a dog when they make mistakes and do things they regret all of the time.


A dog should be allowed to defend himself/herself. I think though that in general, to say that if a dog is aggressive and unprovoked you probably have a very good case for putting the dog down. There are all kinds of legal repercussions for owning any dog that might be considered aggressive... and heaven forbid that aggression was directed at a child!! I would have to take any case of biting very seriously as I do not want my family being sued...
Any dog bite to any person for any reason is required to be reported to the police and animal agencies where I live. I have a neighbor who had the police banging on her door because her st. Bernard puppy scratched her son during play and the teacher saw the scratch and reported it (as she is required to, and heaven forbid she doesn't!) 
So... yes, common sense may have gone by the wayside. If my child cornered my dog and was swinging at it because she was angry and behaving badly and my dog delivered an inhibited bite to her hand (not saying this happened... but if it did occur) I would be likely to tell my child that she probably learned a very good lesson about not cornering anything with teeth & furthermore she'd be learning a good lesson from me about how to treat animals properly...
BUT thats me. The law would still require me to report it and a whole mess of the situation could come from it... heaven forbid the dog bites someone else's child...

Anyway, if one of my children punched a neighbor out of anger I wouldn't give them up for adoption, either... even if that did make them a bit of a liability. I suppose I'd go to investigating the circumstances before I decided my child was a sociopath and had him/her locked away for good...

Just sayin. I understand both sides of the coin.


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## jersey_gray (Dec 8, 2011)

Crantastic said:


> Wow. I hope for your sake that your dog is never in pain and snaps at someone, or is terrified and snaps at someone, or accidentally redirects on a person when snapping at another dog, or experiences any of the myriad other things that can make a dog snap or deliver an inhibited bite.
> 
> I don't understand completely black and white thinking like that. I guess a dog is just never, ever allowed to have a bad day, huh?


I've had two dogs that bit. One lived a full life during which time he bit three separate people (adult males to be specific), got in a few dogfights, killed chickens any chance he got, and proved himself the most destructive dog ever to exist. The other bit my older daughter several times when she was a toddler and I was not going to go through that again with my second child so he was put down. Snapping/biting is a valid reason to put a dog down. Child trumps dog any day. My MIL had her little biting dog for years before the dog got to a point where they were afraid of a bad bite happening (neurotic to begin with and old age made it worse). AIL still has her two little biting dogs, one of them I was involved in them adopting because I knew they could deal with a dog that bit-she was not a dog that could go to just any home, bites with little provocation, neurotic mess, still one of my favorite dogs. The dog in pain analogy is simply idiotic. Of course a dog, cat, PERSON, anything will lash out if their in pain or terrified and that is irrelevant to the thread. Think before you write. A person choosing to put their dog down for biting is being as responsible as the person who chooses to go to the ends of the earth to fix the dog's issue(s). Biting and snapping is a legitimate reason to put to sleep and putting to sleep is a humane act. The dog is in your arms and can be sedated if needed to make it a peaceful end.


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

jersey_gray said:


> Snapping and/or biting is a valid reason to put a dog down, even for a first offence. That's my opinion.


Whoa nelly. I'm glad you're not calling the shots for any dogs other than your own. Years ago Jonas put a hole in my face and to this day I have a nifty scar from it. Never dreamed of putting him down for a bite I was all but begging him to give me. Context is the MOST important thing behind a bite. I've been bitten here or there in my day. Once of those bites was when I quicked a nail. Put down a dog for.. snapping out of pain?


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

jersey_gray said:


> The dog in pain analogy is simply idiotic. Of course a dog, cat, PERSON, anything will lash out if their in pain or terrified and that is irrelevant to the thread. Think before you write.


Sorry, guess I was supposed to know from your blanket, "Snapping and/or biting is a valid reason to put a dog down, even for a first offence" statement that there were exceptions. Silly me. Guess I need to lurn 2 reed.



> A person choosing to put their dog down for biting is being as responsible as the person who chooses to go to the ends of the earth to fix the dog's issue(s).


I'm not debating that euthanasia is the right choice for some aggressive dogs, especially dogs whose first offense was a level four to six on Ian Dunbar's bite scale. I think it is irresponsible to rehome a serious biter. But I will never agree that a snap or a lower-level bite, a first offense, warrants euthanasia. As Dunbar says for dogs at those lower levels: "The dog is certainly not dangerous and more likely to be fearful, rambunctious, or out of control. Wonderful prognosis."


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

Hmm can we apply the 'put them down if they respond' thing to people as well? Cause then I can get rid of a lot of people. It can help the would overpopulation issue and all that. I can be pretty good at annoying people and getting them to snap at me.


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## edenorchards (Nov 13, 2012)

Amaryllis said:


> Please, I thoroughly agree with you.
> 
> Look, a dog who truly does bite "unprovoked" should be put to sleep. But 999 times out of 1,000, dogs don't bite for no reason. The fact of the matter is, people expect their dog to be a stuffed animal and take anything the kids throw at it and also train their dog not to give warning. How many times have we, on this board, heard the following two statements:
> 
> ...


It used to be that the DOG could quite easily teach the kids not to bother the dog... a neat little row of teeth on the back of the hand will teach quite well... you know what I don't understand? Cats will scratch the hell out of kids and no one goes putting their cats to death for it!! Its one of those "well, duh... don't pull the cat's tail little Johnny" kind of things... 

I have a 12 day old litter of puppies in their whelping box right at my feet at this very moment... I have a 14 month old son who I have had no problem teaching to be gentle with my dogs as well as their newborn puppies... & he hasn't even had to learn the "hard way". Its called getting off my butt and parenting...


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Hmm it seems that we might have diverged a bit from the main topic. The main point of this debate is about giving up a dog for the first ever offense they make (a snap/bite, level 3 bite at most). It is not related to cases in which the dogs often bites kids or even toddlers. It's true that dogs that bit once can probably bite more times, but if properly educated and managed, they probably won't bite again too. So the point is, will people give their dogs up for the very first offense, or will they try to work over it to see if no more bites will happen again (giving the dog another chance).

IMO, if one doesn't want to risk anymore so that they give up their dogs that bit their own toddler for the first time, then isn't it better to actually not get a dog so soon? For having 0% risks (since there's always the risk of 1st bite), it's better to wait 'till the kids grow up before having a dog, right?

There might be 101 reasons of why one would give up a dog for having bid their children, but it's just not right to say it so black and white, that we should just give up a dog for the first bite on a child. Coz there's also 101 reasons of why a dog can bite.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

By the way, I also thought about the cat, no one PTS them for scratching, which can be more painful then bites sometimes! (and I'm much more afraid of aggressive cats than aggressive dogs lol)


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## lil_fuzzy (Aug 16, 2010)

Should a dog be given up the first moment they bite/snap? Even if you keep the question that simple, there's no simple answer. If it was a nip and no harm done, then no. But what if the bite killed someone? Then I would say yes. But what if the person who died had abused the dog? Then no.

There's no easy answer that will cover every possible dog, person and situation.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

jersey_gray said:


> Snapping and/or biting is a valid reason to put a dog down, even for a first offence. That's my opinion.


I agree, it makes me sad that someone who (I'm assuming) loves dogsn& would join a dog forum would say something like that, it just makes me sad  a dog NEVER bites/growls/snaps for no reason ... EVER unless that have mental or developmental issues ... Which is a reason in itself.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

jersey_gray said:


> I've had two dogs that bit. One lived a full life during which time he bit three separate people (adult males to be specific), got in a few dogfights, killed chickens any chance he got, and proved himself the most destructive dog ever to exist. The other bit my older daughter several times when she was a toddler and I was not going to go through that again with my second child so he was put down. Snapping/biting is a valid reason to put a dog down. Child trumps dog any day. My MIL had her little biting dog for years before the dog got to a point where they were afraid of a bad bite happening (neurotic to begin with and old age made it worse). AIL still has her two little biting dogs, one of them I was involved in them adopting because I knew they could deal with a dog that bit-she was not a dog that could go to just any home, bites with little provocation, neurotic mess, still one of my favorite dogs. The dog in pain analogy is simply idiotic. Of course a dog, cat, PERSON, anything will lash out if their in pain or terrified and that is irrelevant to the thread. Think before you write. A person choosing to put their dog down for biting is being as responsible as the person who chooses to go to the ends of the earth to fix the dog's issue(s). Biting and snapping is a legitimate reason to put to sleep and putting to sleep is a humane act. The dog is in your arms and can be sedated if needed to make it a peaceful end.


This outrages me beyond words it just does


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

After talking about this topic for some time, I want to ask something, since I wonder what you guys think.

Do you guys think that it's hard to educate/manage a dog that has bid/snapped? Is it more difficult if the victim was a very young kid or even toddler?

Personally, if we are talking about the first bite/snap that is more like a warning or territorial/fear display, then I find it fairly easy to deal with training and socialization (since we are at the beginning of the issue). This as long as the dog is not too nervous by nature, since it would be extra hard.
If really young kids are involved, and they are not from guests (if they are form guests then it's easier to just restrict the dogs' freedom while they are around) but myself, I'd have to be extra careful and I'd be a bit more stressed, but I don't believe that it would be really that hard. Unless I did try to train the dog and fail after a few attempts (so that it would be a situation I really can't correct), I don't think that I'd give the dog up easily.

But what do you guys think? Is it hard to train a dog to make it safe after the first offense, or is it actually fairly easy? (again, we are talking about bites that only happened once and not those that worsened after a few more incidents without being addressed)


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I wouldn't be because its always the kid that causes it & the fault of the parents for not watching their kid, it's not my dogs fault I am only responsible for my dog ... If I am doing everything on my end then I think the parents should be held responsible for their end of the equation


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

jersey_gray said:


> Snapping and/or biting is a valid reason to put a dog down, even for a first offence. That's my opinion.


Are we REALLY lumping snapping in with biting in this thread? Air snapping is a warning and if a dog snaps at you and misses - they didn't mean to bite you. I can't... even fathom putting a dog down for an air snap. I really can't. 

Even for a bite, to me context is everything. But I'm not a fan of zero tolerance policies in any shape or form, really.


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## SassyCat (Aug 29, 2011)

Some people are idiots and that's that, there's no point in further elaboration really. Not being able to train a dog isn't really an excuse to kill a dog and then get another terrier and then kill that dog too etc. it's just downright stupidity. I don't blame the kids, they do stupid stuff all the time and often get punished, I blame parents for their stupidity in both parenting and dog owning. 

Yes we all do all sorts of stupid things in life both as kids, as parents, as dog owners, at jobs etc. but one crosses a line when his/her personal issues are taken out on a dog that by default doesn't know any better. I know lots of people who were bitten by a dog as kids, their parents didn't go out on a killing spree to avenge their scratched kids.

:rant:

Oh and I've never seen those "red zone" dogs like in CM show but allegedly they do exist and for the sole purpose of making you and your family miserable... I had though, met some people who described their dogs as spawns of satan but found out that their problems are fixable within days so don't know what to make of that.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

jersey_gray said:


> Snapping and/or biting is a valid reason to put a dog down, even for a first offence. That's my opinion.


That's really sad. I can't imagine my childhood without Fritz (the biting schnauzer). I especially can't imagine the emotional impact if he had been killed for biting us! He was the only reason I ever wanted to go to my grandparents' house. . .but then my grandpa probably should have been put down at an early age. He was unstable .

Funny how some people expect more from dogs than from humans. Who hasn't snapped at family members, or even lashed out in anger? Dogs are no different.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Some people are idiots and that's that, there's no point in further elaboration really. *Not being able to train a dog isn't really an excuse to kill a dog and then get another terrier and then kill that dog too etc*. it's just downright stupidity. I don't blame the kids, they do stupid stuff all the time and often get punished, I blame parents for their stupidity in both parenting and dog owning.


Yes, on the downright stupidity


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I also agree with "not bring able to train a dog" is no excuse for getting rid of them or having them PTS is IMHO the "cowards" way out.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Is biting/snapping a valid excuse to put down a dog? Even on a first offense?

Maybe. Maybe not. Seriously, it just depends. There are too many variables in the dog, the owners, and the circumstance. 

I will say that I believe that unless there are truly outstanding circumstances (ie: to a dog trainer or behaviorist) that no dog with a bite history (ie: needed medical care or intervention from legal agencies) should be rehomed. Which I guess translates to 'dogs with a bite history who can not stay in their original homes, either because of owner inability or unwillingness, should be put to sleep'. It's sadder that way, really, because I think most dogs who bite -even badly- are either provoked or have something going on, but I do NOT believe they should end up in a shelter situation, or rehomed to about 99.99% of the pethomes available to them.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

CptJack said:


> I will say that I believe that unless there are truly outstanding circumstances (ie: to a dog trainer or behaviorist) that no dog with a bite history (ie: needed medical care or intervention from legal agencies) should be rehomed.


I agree with this 100%. I would not be comfortable getting a dog from a shelter if I knew the shelter put "serious biters" up for rehoming, even with a warning. Its just asking for trouble. Preventing dogs with serious bite history from going up for adoption prevents the wrong dog from going home with the wrong family... IMO its one thing to tell someone that a dog needs training/exercise/etc. and its another thing for the adopter to actually provide it adequately.

I DO not agree with a dog being PTS from the first (mild-to-moderate) bite. Some people that should know better refuse to learn that they're asking for it. If you know your dog is not good with kids, don't let him be around kids and if there is any doubt whether you are able supervise their interaction 100%, keep them separate by crating the dog, or similar. Does that make life easy? No. Does it limit the risks of dealing with a dog that now has a bite history? Yes.

As a fun story - my FI got bit on the leg by a collie when he was little (~5). He was running around with some sheep on a farm, and decided he wanted to go a different direction than the sheep were going....


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

gingerkid you got a smile out of me... 

not taking away from the seriousness of the thread "sorry"


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> Do you guys think that it's hard to educate/manage a dog that has bid/snapped? Is it more difficult if the victim was a very young kid or even toddler?


Well, I consider bite and snap very different things. If the dog never made contact with the 'target' it was just a warning, much less worrisome than a bite that broke skin but still a problem. I would never PTS a dog for an air snap. Absolutely its harder with a young kid! Adults you can teach to act like... adults. Toddlers can't be trusted to always retain those lessons, they are unpredictable and naive, its just what they are. There is an element of added danger, they are smaller, damage can be done easily, they cannot be expected to act responsibly and the dog is less likely to defer to their authority.

People sometimes do crate their dog whenever their kid is awake. Its no a life for a dog. Maybe the dog lives in the basement where no one goes. 



> This outrages me beyond words it just does


I'm outraged at your outrage! She clearly cared deeply for her dog and worked through a dangerous situation but when the second child came and the dog was worse the risk became too great. Sometimes people have to PTS a dog for the safety of others. Its sad, very sad. But imagine how much worse it would be if instead this thread were 'my dog bit my kid, we tried retraining and it didn't work, couldn't bear to euth him and now he's seriously injured my toddler'. Bet there wouldnt be much more sympathy for that scenario. IMO not taking the necessary steps to ensure everyones safety is the cowards way out.

This isn't a one-size-fits-all solution. Its just as ridiculous to say either 'always euth the moment teeth touch skin' as 'never euth the dog or rehome, even if he has or is likely to seriously hurt someone'.



> But what do you guys think? Is it hard to train a dog to make it safe after the first offense, or is it actually fairly easy?


Depends on the dog, owner and issue. There is no catch-all solution, each dog is different. And we are talking about the probability of the second bite. If the dog has bitten my kid for the first time my thoughts are 'how likely is this to happen again and what can I do to prevent it'. Both of those questions could have radically different answers for different situations.

For the one you laid out earlier (assuming the kid lived in the home and was not a guest). Dog bites child on the face unprovoked I would consider PTS. Far from a certainty because the bite didn't break skin but that situation (people near the table) will happen many, many times in daily life and the dog was unprovoked, there is nothing to change in the kids behaviour. Its all about how successful you could be retraining him which depends on the dog, the severity of the issue and your family. An extremely fearful dog is very hard to rehab, especially with scary, unpredictable kids running around.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Heh heh "bad sheep!" Lol that story made me smile :grin:


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

aiw said:


> I'm outraged at your outrage! She clearly cared deeply for her dog and worked through a dangerous situation but when the second child came and the dog was worse the risk became too great. Sometimes people have to PTS a dog for the safety of others. Its sad, very sad. But imagine how much worse it would be if instead this thread were 'my dog bit my kid, we tried retraining and it didn't work, couldn't bear to euth him and now he's seriously injured my toddler'. Bet there wouldnt be much more sympathy for that scenario. IMO not taking the necessary steps to ensure everyones safety is the cowards way out.


Hmm even with what happened in this case, I also don't agree that one can draw a conclusion such as "Snapping/biting is a valid reason to put a dog down". The owner might have tried to do something with her dog, the dog might have continued biting the toddler so that it didn't work out and they had to PTS the dog in the end, but that doesn't mean one can say that all dogs do not deserve 2nd chances. It could be what the owner did was not the best, and/or it could be that this dog was a harder case.

In any cases, honestly, it bothered me a bit how one could have let a dog bite a toddler for several times. Giving a dog more chances doesn't mean being careless, the training could have been more secure for the toddler.

Also, the dog doesn't have to necessarily be crated while the toddler is awake, right? (I'm saying this in response to your comment, not about what the other user said about what happened with her toddler)
Maybe people could put a baby gate in the toddler's room when the toddler is crawling around the room while the dog is outside the room roaming free. And/or the dog can be taught to stay away from the toddler when an adult is holding the toddler. An owner should be able to at least ask a dog to not approach too much whenever he/she needs distance, and if compliance can't happen in such moments then the dog's situation is actually worse anyways.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I don't have a species of animal Giant to the very small of creatures on my farm that doesn't know that the head of another animal is where the teeth are ? babies and tots are the parents responsibilities even the animals get that.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

When I'm out in public I make sure my end of the bargain (my dogs) are managed on (regular standard length ... Not retractable) leashes & never out of my sight. BUT that being said, it is the PARENTS job do DO THE OTHER HALF & I make sure they know that if a kid big or small asks to pet my dog FIRST & waits for primission/answer from me I have NP with them petting my dog. The problem I have is kids not waiting for the ok or just running up unannounced ... Those kids get a talking to, as do the parents.

On my property kids aren't allowed but if they ever are, they are to leave the dogs alone, if they don't they are shown the gate.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> The problem I have is kids not waiting for the ok or just running up unannounced ... Those kids get a talking to, as do the parents.


I think thats very fair. Really in the interests of the kids safety (as well as the dogs) its a terrible idea to let kids run up to strange dogs.



> In any cases, honestly, it bothered me a bit how one could have let a dog bite a toddler for several times. Giving a dog more chances doesn't mean being careless, the training could have been more secure for the toddler.


True. A dog that bit a toddler should not be given the opportunity to do so again. But how? Retraining will work for some and should be tried for most, but if it doesn't work I won't have an animal in my home who is likely to hurt my kid. People are fallible and you can't control every variable of every situation. Providing the dog with a decent quality of life and making sure he never comes in contact with the kids in the home is almost impossible.



> And/or the dog can be taught to stay away from the toddler when an adult is holding the toddler.


In the scenario given the dog didn't bite the kid when the parent was holding it. The kids just walked by the table. Depending on the layout of the house/apartment I suppose you could limit access to the table (if possible) but that is far from a guarantee that the dog won't guard something else. You could also make sure the kid and dog never interact, but that is no way for a family to live and you can bet as soon as the toddler is fully mobile he will want to meet the doggy (or be afraid of it). Not to mention having your baby in the same house as a dog you think could be dangerous is like a continuous game of russian roulette.

Again, snapping is different to me than biting and not grounds for euthanasia. Even in the case of biting many factors have to be weighed. The only simple answer I can give is it depends on the dog and the situation any hard and fast rule wouldn't be fair to dog or owner. Still, when you are talking about the safety of your kid, euthanasia is not off the table.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

The bottom line is it has to be 50/50 ... Half has to be the dog owner being responsible (dog on a proper leash in public always in sight, trained etc ...) the rest is up to the parent hey , I train my dog, please "train" your kid that way everyone has a pleasant experience


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

aiw, I think that we are actually kind of in agreement. What I was disagreeing is the black and white decision that a dog should be given up if he ever bites/snaps for the first time, without anything being analyzed or done first. The rest I can agree with you, that after analyzing the situation and tried a few things and didn't work out, of course then we can't do much and children's safety comes first. 

When I mentioned that the dog could give some distance when the toddler is being held by an adult, I wasn't talking about the case in which the child was bitten when passing by the table. I was just giving an idea about one of the things that adults can do when it comes to management, during the time the adults finds a way to solve the situation after the first bite.

What I wanted to say in my last reply was that imagine the following scenario: a family has a toddler and a dog, the dog someday bit the child without drawing blood. The adults then tries to figure out why it happened and what they could do. So they do a series of management (like baby gate limiting dog's access to baby room, asking dog to not approach toddler when held by an adult in the same room, and so on), while they try to correct the dog's aggression through training. If after a while the dog doesn't get any better (which could be that the owners are not experienced enough and/or the situation of the dog is more complicated), then the dog has to go.
So that the management by restricting the dog's access to the toddler is temporary, only as long as the owners tries to work things out. If eventually things do work out, then dog has more freedom again (although never ever unsupervised when near toddler of course - but this goes for any dog, having bite history or not).


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Depending on the dog and family that management could work. On the other board right now a poster is trying to decide the best way to handle her reactive dobe that has taken a serious dislike for her 8 year old. She hasnt bitten him yet but all the signs point to that eventuality. In this case the dog hasn't hurt the son at all but there are other very worrying signs. She won't touch a treat he tosses, even after hours sitting there, when he dropped a pencil she came running growling and snapping. Personally, I wouldn't want to wait until something _does_ happen before taking control of the situation. Its a hard decision and ultimately a judgement call (unless you wait till something very serious has happened). I'm glad for her caution... its a tough call, I don't envy her situation.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> The bottom line is it has to be 50/50 ... Half has to be the dog owner being responsible (dog on a proper leash in public always in sight, trained etc ...) the rest is up to the parent hey , I train my dog, please "train" your kid that way everyone has a pleasant experience


We are "training" our kids, this training process takes longer than the average life span of a dog. You seem to expect these kids to obey all the rules but I need to point out, grown adults cannot even obey a simple rule such as a speed limit while driving. How many guest at your "adult only" parties have a few beers yet jump behind the wheel to drive home? 

But gosh darn it, we just don't understand why kids cannot obey all the rules....

If your dog posses any threat of biting a child then the rules are quite clear, that dog needs a muzzle when in public places. Do you follow that rule?

Lets be quite clear on this, your dog bites a child then your are liable and the courts have the authority to execute your dog for violating that rule. 

That is the rules of our society...


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

gingerkid said:


> As a fun story - my FI got bit on the leg by a collie when he was little (~5). He was running around with some sheep on a farm, and decided he wanted to go a different direction than the sheep were going....


We have hosted many neighborhood parties, kids included.

One neighbor, a single women, brought her "sheep dog" to the party. This dog was running around nipping at the kids and the owner thought it was cute. look, my dog is herding your kids.

Are you friggin serious, get that dog off my property NOW. And needless to say, she was no longer invited to any neighborhood parties.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

aiw said:


> Depending on the dog and family that management could work. On the other board right now a poster is trying to decide the best way to handle her reactive dobe that has taken a serious dislike for her 8 year old. She hasnt bitten him yet but all the signs point to that eventuality. In this case the dog hasn't hurt the son at all but there are other very worrying signs. She won't touch a treat he tosses, even after hours sitting there, when he dropped a pencil she came running growling and snapping. Personally, I wouldn't want to wait until something _does_ happen before taking control of the situation. Its a hard decision and ultimately a judgement call (unless you wait till something very serious has happened). I'm glad for her caution... its a tough call, I don't envy her situation.


There are hard situations that an owner cannot really solve, and there are lighter situations that an owner has chances to solve. The question is, should we really put everything in the same category, meaning, should we really say that all dogs that has bitten/snapped once, or shown any signs of aggression once, be given up?

Again, disagreeing with owners that goes absolute by saying "all dogs that has bitten/snapped once should be given up" is not the same as disagreeing with owners that gives up their dogs after a few attempts to solve the situation or after seeing how the situation is too difficult/dangerous to handle. These two are not the same, and I guess most users here are not disagreeing with the 2nd type of scenario.

Personally, I won't cast my judgments on someone that is with a complicated situation that he/she can't really solve it; but I do strongly disagree with someone that can say that any dog should be given up for the first snap/bite, without taking circumstances into consideration.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

ModMark said:


> We are "training" our kids, this training process takes longer than the average life span of a dog. You seem to expect these kids to obey all the rules but I need to point out, grown adults cannot even obey a simple rule such as a speed limit while driving. How many guest at your "adult only" parties have a few beers yet jump behind the wheel to drive home?
> 
> But gosh darn it, we just don't understand why kids cannot obey all the rules....
> 
> ...


No which is any I expect the parents to manage their kids, since I manage my dogs ... You know muzzles actually exacerbate biting don't you? I hate to reference him but did anyone see that DW EP with that Pit who was fear aggressive toward kids & the ppl gave him to CM & he found another dog for them? Yeah ... I had a dog like that still took her into public (hell she went everywhere with me) & never muzzles her. It's about MANAGEMENT. This dog was even the office mascot at the place I used to work, uses to go on trail rides w/ me but she laid behind the counter where no kids could he to her & if they tried they see quickly told to buzz off

I do not serve booze at my parties because if someone has had too many & drives home & hurts themselves or someone else I am liable. Granted I don't have many parties


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Kids (like puppies) can't be expected to be 100% predictable and responsible but unlike puppies they also can't be put on leash so some foolish behaviour is to be expected and prepared for. If you (general you) have a dog that is known to be aggressive towards kids IMO its 100% the dog owners responsibility to ensure everyone's safety. Same for any dog really, just may be easier with some than others. Its a good point about training, puppy license for kids lasts one helluva long time.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Hmm I guess that it's about common sense - owners should be careful with their dogs and parents should be careful with their kids. Owners make sure to observe and manage their dogs, and parents make sure they teach their kids and supervise them. Just coz they are human kids and are too young to understand what they are not suppose to bother, doesn't mean the owner of the dog has 100% responsibility while the kid roams totally free in the house as a guest. The owner can put away his/her dog if there are guests' kids are too young, or if he/she sees the kids not respecting the dog's space or if the dog seems too nervous. And then the parents shouldn't also let their own kids roam free at someone's house. At least when I was little, we were taught to behave as guests. And if we were too young to understand manners, our parents would still make sure we are not roaming around freely. After all, dogs are not the only dangers, and other people's house are not play land.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Hmm I guess that it's about common sense - owners should be careful with their dogs and parents should be careful with their kids. Owners make sure to observe and manage their dogs, and parents make sure they teach their kids and supervise them.


Agree, but the problem is there are just too many idiots on each side that lack the common sense gene. So kids get bit and dogs get PTSed.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> You know muzzles actually exacerbate biting don't you?


That is not my problem. 

I love kids and I love dogs. And I love seeing kids playing with dogs which is why I own Golden retrievers. I have no desire for an aggressive dog which poses a danger to kids. That was my choice. If you decide to own and keep an aggressive dog then it is your responsibility to ensure your dog NEVER bites a child. 

When my neighbor passed away, his son rented out the house to a childless couple who owned husky's. They were contained by an invisible fence.

One day a friend dropped and we let our dogs play in the backyard. Her dog crossed over the invisible fence boundary and these two husky's pounced on the dog. One held the dog down while the other husky went went for her belly and ripped it open. The dog survived but require 12 stitches to close the wound.

As parents we were terrified as we looked at our 1 year son who just started to walk. We called the police and tried to address this issue with the renters. They were complete *ssholes, not our problem since that dog enter our property was their response. 

Luckily for us, the law was on our side. The owner of the house was responsible and he knew it. One call to him and those dogs were gone the next day. 

Just saying, use extreme care if you own aggressive dogs. The legal system will side with the child....


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

sheep said:


> At least when I was little, we were taught to behave as guests. And if we were too young to understand manners, our parents would still make sure we are not roaming around freely.


It seems the older we get, the better behave we were when young.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

As far as I'm concerned a bite is not a bite is not a bite. There are carying degrees of severity and circumstances that come into play. I think it's silly to euth or rehome a dog for any bite without considering the individual circumstances/dog.

Trey bit my sister in the face when she was 3 or 4. She bled but it was honestly not an aggressive bite. He was an overexcited young herding dog and they were playing. Jump and a nip was all it took to break skin. I've been bitten by 3 of my dogs and all the bites were 100% my fault.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

ModMark said:


> It seems the older we get, the better behave we were when young.


Well I remember when I was one of those snot-nosed kids running around and when my step dad got home supper was served and if I was not in the home on time he would take a walk find me and grab my right arm (which is longer now) and we would walk back the block or so and about every 3rd step he would raise me off the ground and give me a couple hits with a garrison belt. To this day I am on time for any appts so I guess it worked.

But on the other hand I was a little butt-hole and deserved all. So I for one do not remember "better behaved"


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Yeah, my parents were abused pretty badly (and claim everyone was back then) and were horrible kids. Just awful, really. But then, so were the adults, apparently.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Well I'm not claiming abuse because the swats were more show than go but he indeed did get the message across.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Maybe this is a bit off topic, but back then we used to run away from chicken dusters.  Wouldn't say that this was the best method, nor the belt and so on, but I think that as long as there's some balance and not being extreme, some fear is actually a good thing. At least back then we would be afraid of vandalizing stuffs, talk back in bad manner, not respect the elders... And we wouldn't see the world as if we own it, while disregarding other people.

In the past, the parents would educate their kids if their kids does something wrong; nowadays the parents would educate other people if their kids does something wrong.

Again, not trying to sell extreme torture methods of course, but a bit of discipline and care from the parents is important, which is lacking so much nowadays.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

wvasko said:


> Well I'm not claiming abuse because the swats were more show than go but he indeed did get the message across.


Clearly not ,if he "had to" do it more than once . 

If "one arm is longer than the other", that's permanent damage, which is unarguably abuse. And probably a garrison belt (whatever that is) left welts and/or bruises. If injuring someone isn't abuse, i don't know what is. But hey, if you don't feel you were abused I can't argue. But don't claim you were better behaved than kids today. Cuz i know that's not true!


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

sheep said:


> At least back then we would be afraid of vandalizing stuffs, talk back in bad manner, not respect the elders... And we wouldn't see the world as if we own it, while disregarding other people.


 See, I don't believe that's true. I think it's a case of selective memory. My parents' stories. . .well, they and their friends were AWFUL. They did anything they thought they could get away with. No consciences; they were only afraid of getting caught. So they didn't get caught. They might have spoken "respectfully" to avoid being hit but it wasn't real respect. Behind their teachers' and parents' backs, they said and did terrible things. They avoided adults as much as possible. Some of kids tortured animals, some tortured other kids. So, no, i don't think the fear they had of adults had any positive effects.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Willowy said:


> See, I don't believe that's true. I think it's a case of selective memory. My parents' stories. . .well, they and their friends were AWFUL. They did anything they thought they could get away with. No consciences; they were only afraid of getting caught. So they didn't get caught. They might have spoken "respectfully" to avoid being hit but it wasn't real respect. Behind their teachers' and parents' backs, they said and did terrible things. They avoided adults as much as possible. Some of kids tortured animals, some tortured other kids. So, no, i don't think the fear they had of adults had any positive effects.


The fear, if not too much of course, can drive us to be mindful of what we do and speak, which can in the end allow some reflection on our own actions and words as we grow up ("why are those bad things?"). Coz it reminds us that everything has consequences, and it also shows that we can't just do everything we wanted or be too over confident (without consequences that we are afraid of, we might not really care about why we shouldn't do certain things).

But fear can also be from a number of things, not just hitting. It can be consequences like losing freedom, losing privileges, and so on. And besides, the punishment has to be adequate to the situation... For example, a kid should be afraid of swearing in front of elders, but not be afraid of speaking of course...


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Willowy said:


> Clearly not ,if he "had to" do it more than once .
> 
> If "one arm is longer than the other", that's permanent damage, which is unarguably abuse. And probably a garrison belt (whatever that is) left welts and/or bruises. If injuring someone isn't abuse, i don't know what is. But hey, if you don't feel you were abused I can't argue. But don't claim you were better behaved than kids today. Cuz i know that's not true!


No the arm is normal that was my attempt at humor while explaining the indignity of it all.

Now as far as doing it more than once, never on DF have I ever proclaimed or even hinted at inelligence. Memories are dim but I do believe it happened 2 or 3 times when my butt survival instincts kicked in and getting home at dinner time was a done deal.



> But on the other hand I was a little butt-hole and deserved all. So I for one do not remember "better behaved"


I thought the above statement said, *I did not remember being better behaved than kids today.

*There is no way I could judge because I was seeing all through kid's eyes.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

ModMark said:


> That is not my problem.
> 
> I love kids and I love dogs. And I love seeing kids playing with dogs which is why I own Golden retrievers. I have no desire for an aggressive dog which poses a danger to kids. That was my choice. If you decide to own and keep an aggressive dog then it is your responsibility to ensure your dog NEVER bites a child.
> 
> ...


It will if you yourself Are an ass hat about it in turn on our property we had an LPD that would have ripped any trespassing dog a new one if it crossed into our pastures when he was alive but thy is what he was THERE FOR he cane be expected to know the difference btw a coyote & a dog. 

My dogs will attack a strange dog ... Is that bad? No they are DOGS it's what dogs do ... I'm glad you like goldens but but you also have to respect that not every dog is a golden.

That dog I had was a great dog & it's not like she "went after kids in fact she was totally find with kids over 10 years old, what I mean by 50/50 is that it is NOT ok to me your toggled or small child run up to. Any dog thy see without asking & if the owner says no then tough cookies.

I think that situation with the huskies could have been handled better. Remember I am from a state where we shoot trespassing animals & if applicable people & on that the law IS on my side.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> My dogs will attack a strange dog ... Is that bad? No they are DOGS it's what dogs do ...


I completely 100% disagree with the idea that someone being on your property gives you the right to shoot them. That goes for people or dogs. IMO the only reason to hurt/kill someone is if you're in fear for your life and IMO someone just wandering onto your property doesnt fall under that category (unless they're waving a gun or knife around). The responsibility of justification should lie on the person doing the violence and I'm glad for the laws up here that make it that way. For people or dogs unless they were being seriously provoked (by pain, fear intimidation) its not okay for your dog to bite someone or you to shoot them. Not a popular opinion around here, but there you go.

As for the kid stuff I have no interest in my kids or my dogs fearing me. Respect and some discipline? Absolutely. Fear? Definitely not. 



> It seems the older we get, the better behave we were when young.


This made me laugh. _Every_ generation thinks the next one has 'gone to the dogs'.


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> It will if you yourself Are an ass hat about it in turn on our property


Translation please. I am a New Yorker, I don't speak Texan....



dogdragoness said:


> My dogs will attack a strange dog ... Is that bad? No they are DOGS it's what dogs do ...


That is a strange attitude from someone who claims she loves dogs. Why would you want to see another dog getting hurt? 

If a dog wanders onto my property, I will attempt to tie it up and see if there are tags on the dog and call the owner.

But I am a New Yorker, we do things a bit different than in Texas..


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> he would take a walk find me and grab my right arm (which is longer now)


When I read this I saw... "my right arm (which is no longer)". Huh... wvasko the one armed man.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

ModMark said:


> Translation please. I am a New Yorker, I don't speak Texan....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have to understand we have no SPCA out here ... We are out in the middle of no where & I have goats I must keep safe, most of the dogs are feral with no owner it's not just me most ranchers would have the same answer. I cannot wait to see what the dog will do I can't risk it.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

aiw said:


> When I read this I saw... "my right arm (which is no longer)". Huh... wvasko the one armed man.


Yes it appears when 1st writing "now" it came out as "no" Oh well just consider the caliber of man doing the writing. I do have 2 arms and both the proper length


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Parents....


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## ModMark (Oct 27, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> We are out in the middle of no where & I have goats I must keep safe, most of the dogs are feral with no owner it's not just me most ranchers would have the same answer. I cannot wait to see what the dog will do I can't risk it.


Fair enough, have a nice evening....


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

aiw said:


> Depending on the dog and family that management could work. On the other board right now a poster is trying to decide the best way to handle her reactive dobe that has taken a serious dislike for her 8 year old. She hasnt bitten him yet but all the signs point to that eventuality. In this case the dog hasn't hurt the son at all but there are other very worrying signs. She won't touch a treat he tosses, even after hours sitting there, when he dropped a pencil she came running growling and snapping. Personally, I wouldn't want to wait until something _does_ happen before taking control of the situation. Its a hard decision and ultimately a judgement call (unless you wait till something very serious has happened). I'm glad for her caution... its a tough call, I don't envy her situation.


In this situation, there are clear signs that the dog is NOT comfortable with the 8 year old. If it were my dog, I wouldrehome him (or try) before anything happened. If a bite happened before I could rehome it... well, I'd try to rehome it anyway - there are homes without children, and I really think that sometimes some dogs just don't like some people. If things seemed to be escalating beyond what I could handle before I could rehome I would take the dog to the local shelter, because I know they do behavioural testing before they do anything (Adoption or PTS) with the dogs, which is not the best situation for everyone, but for me, personally, I feel like it would give my dog the best chance. If I could afford it, I might consider getting the behavioral assessment before taking the dog in to the shelter just so I could know. ts a very hard situation for me to imagine... I have a lot of sympathy for people going through something like that, and I can understand PTSing the dog in that case.

But certainly each situation has to be evaluated on an individual basis. I don't think one bite or snap where there is a clearly *avoidable* cause is necessarily warrants PTS.


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## luvmyfurballs (Mar 5, 2012)

I don't believe that a dog should be given up if it bites either. There are so many things that factor into the situation. My oldest dog is the sweetest dog, she loves everything and she bit my boyfriend. She was not feeling well and he attempted to pull her off the bed as she was throwing up. When I got home he told me she bit him, I said well what did you do to her? It never crossed my mind to get rid of her or put her to sleep. She is 8 yrs old and that was the only time she did anything like that. They might be dogs, but we should respect their space and how they are feeling.


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## metal-otaku (Nov 14, 2012)

i have to add, i disagree with a dog never bites unprovoked. my phobia of dogs came from me being attacked by a dog as a small child completely unprovoked. i was walking to the car and a neighbors dog who had it outside for a walk with no leash ran right over and viciously attacked me. and i wasn't even near the dog when it went after me. i was 4 years old, didn't even see the dog till it attacked me. then the owner had the gawl to yell at my dad for hurting his dog, trying to protect me and get it off me. 

that owner too said his dog had never done anything like that before. guess what, after court, and having to pay for my hospital bills he put his dog down after one bite. and i had to live with that trauma and fear for a long time. i just recently at 25 almost 26 got over that fear, to where i can even be around dogs regularly. 

i still get jumpy and my dog is locked up in his kennel or outside in his big kennel and scolded when he bites me play or other wise. (never other wise has happened) biting is not tolerated at all towards people. and still instills in me the same fear, however i've learned to not be hysterical anymore, at least with the play biting. and if he ever bit me or my god kids or any guest or anyone viciously, unprovoked. i'd put him down. i love my dog. but i'd put him down. cause no matter what the safety of the kids or people is more important. and my bf new that when i agreed to let him have a dog. we got lucky and got a dog from the pound without an once of aggression in him. even when he's being "aggressive" for him it's not that bad. he shoves my brothers away from me and snaps at toys he tries to play with that aren't his. he doesn't even bite at my godson when he kicked my dog in the face. because his poor excuse for a grandmother teaches him to do that and it's ok. he learns at my house it's not ok. and he will be spanked and put in time out and apologies to my dog. not just by me but by his mother too. any time he hurts an animal he's put in time out and has to say sorry. even banging my my fish tanks. all my boy does is back up and get away from the kid till he's out of time out. he has never even fear bit. he fear pees. zombies, zombies are the worse cause. unless the zombie is me. apparently i'm not a scary zombie. like daddy is, or others. 

but if someone feels it's for their families safety or the public safety to put down their dog weather or not it bites once or not is that owners choice and should be respected. not questioned or belittled by those who don't know fully what happened and weren't there. and one bite is all it takes to traumatize a child or person for a good portion of their life. causing them to be locked in a separate room from everyone else whom they are visiting because they refuse to put their dog away from the kid who is terrified of dogs. the kid must be punished for something some irresponsible person's horrible dog did to them. and all these dog owners could say was i must have done something. but had they'd been there they'd have known i hadn't done anything wrong the owner and the dog did.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

metal-otaku said:


> i have to add, i disagree with a dog never bites unprovoked.


I don't think anyone said that?


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

And barring the uncommon unprovoked attack, a vast majority of "He bit me for no reason!" stories are partial stories. They usually actually are something akin to "And then I took his food bowl and he bit me for NO REASON!"


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

metal-otaku said:


> i have to add, i disagree with a dog never bites unprovoked. my phobia of dogs came from me being attacked by a dog as a small child completely unprovoked. i was walking to the car and a neighbors dog who had it outside for a walk with no leash ran right over and viciously attacked me. and i wasn't even near the dog when it went after me. i was 4 years old, didn't even see the dog till it attacked me. then the owner had the gawl to yell at my dad for hurting his dog, trying to protect me and get it off me.
> 
> that owner too said his dog had never done anything like that before. guess what, after court, and having to pay for my hospital bills he put his dog down after one bite. and i had to live with that trauma and fear for a long time. i just recently at 25 almost 26 got over that fear, to where i can even be around dogs regularly.
> 
> ...


I disagree, anyone who says "I love my dog BUT ..." Doesn't really love their dog IMHO.

You keep your dog locked up in a kennel? Scold him for even play biting? You know you are setting up a bite senario right? Just saying.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

> I disagree, anyone who says "I love my dog BUT ..." Doesn't really love their dog IMHO.


I think thats kindof ridiculous. I love my dog but I can't let him injure a child. I love my dog but I can't quit my job to be with him 24/7 like he would want. I love my dog but I can't allow him to destroy my house so he must be kenneled. Or even, I love my dog but I love my kids more...
None of those things mean you don't love your dog and try to do right by him. It just means there are other things in your life as well.

Dogs are not perfect creatures. Sometimes they do bite without provocation or sometimes the provocation is so minor that it can't be accepted (a dog that bites because someone walked by for example).

Also, putting him in 'time out' (possibly in his kennel) for biting is what is recommended everyday on this board...


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## zhaor (Jul 2, 2009)

metal-otaku said:


> i have to add, i disagree with a dog never bites unprovoked. my phobia of dogs came from me being attacked by a dog as a small child completely unprovoked. i was walking to the car and a neighbors dog who had it outside for a walk with no leash ran right over and viciously attacked me. and i wasn't even near the dog when it went after me. i was 4 years old, didn't even see the dog till it attacked me. then the owner had the gawl to yell at my dad for hurting his dog, trying to protect me and get it off me.


Obviously this was the dog's fault and the owner had nothing to do with it right? >.>


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

sheep said:


> But fear can also be from a number of things, not just hitting. It can be consequences like losing freedom, losing privileges, and so on. And besides, the punishment has to be adequate to the situation... For example, a kid should be afraid of swearing in front of elders, but not be afraid of speaking of course...


Punishment can be adequate without causing terror.

Punishment correctly applied doesn't create a fearful emotion. It creates a clear choice of what to do. Not "omg, if I do whatever, I'm going to get crushed". If my hypothetical kid slips and cusses, I don't want him/her screaming in terror and hiding in the closet like in some horror movie. If he/she recognizes the mistake and it's not a pattern (truly a "glitch" in behavior), I'd probably let it slide just like if Wally makes a mistake, he doesn't go straight into fearful mode where he's peeing on the floor because he's scared of what's going to happen. If he corrects himself, I act like it never happened, like an eraser on a pencil.

Mistakes happen, both in dogs and humans. Mistakes shouldn't create fear. That's what he was like before - and it was horrible.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

aiw said:


> I think thats kindof ridiculous. I love my dog but I can't let him injure a child. I love my dog but I can't quit my job to be with him 24/7 like he would want. I love my dog but I can't allow him to destroy my house so he must be kenneled. Or even, I love my dog but I love my kids more...
> None of those things mean you don't love your dog and try to do right by him. It just means there are other things in your life as well.
> 
> Dogs are not perfect creatures. Sometimes they do *bite without provocation* or sometimes the provocation is so minor that it can't be accepted (a dog that bites because someone walked by for example).
> ...


Gets no argument from me, I agree with above.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I don't think the poster meant when they said "stick them in the kennel" why not just remove yourself & the toy from the room? Which I thought was the prefered method.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> I don't think the poster meant when they said "stick them in the kennel" why not just remove yourself & the toy from the room? Which I thought was the prefered method.


Agreed, I thought kennels/crates weren't to be used for punishment because that prevent positive-association with the kennel/crate for crate training?


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I think it depends on how its being done. If its "NO, BAD DOG.... Go to your crate!!!" then I would consider it a correction as well as a time out, but it could just be "yelp....in your crate." Both could be viewed differently by the dog.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

metal-otaku, after reading your post, I've realized that I have to be clear when saying "unprovoked" and "without reason", as in there's always reason behind a bite, but it can happen without the victim provoking it (dog can see trigger from afar and run towards it).

I can't comment on how bad your trauma is, as the only trauma I had was with being scratched by a cat when I was little, but never caused fear enough to not even being able to tolerare them in a same place.
But I still can't agree with one bite being what it takes to PTS, whether the consequences. Yes, it might be traumatizing for the victim, and only the victims would know how bad it is. But is it something that justifies PTSing a dog? Not always. What if it was just a behavioral issue that is simple and just started to develop and can be dealed with? Like some insecurity for seeing some kids for the first time or territorial response that was not avoided by owner taking proper care when receiving guests. Or even the beginning of RG when a kid tries to take a bone away from a dog. Or what if dog was in some pain and kid touched the wrong parts? There are good reasons to PTS a dog, and there are silly reasons. And there are curable situations and more complicated situations. It just can't be so black and white, by saying "one first bite = PTS no matter why".


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

I usually try to avoid any topic on a dog forum that is about dogs with children. It seems that the majority of "dog forum people" (haha) are childless and so there's usually a common thought where dogs are just being dogs and make mistakes but children are dumb, evil little creatures. Then there are the parenting forums where kids will be kids and not do everything right but dogs are held to insanely high standards and if the dog doesn't live up to those standards it, then the advise is "get rid of it". 
The world needs a "Mothers Who Love Dogs" forum for us in the minority. 

But seriously, I actually agree with most of you. I work really hard to make sure that my children and my dogs enjoy and respect each other. I do not hold either of them to super high standards. I have a 21 month old baby girl who occasionally gets a little rough with her hugs and petting. When that happens I calmly tell her "be easy" and show her how the right way. The dogs lick her face and everything is fine. Buttercup will get a little rough when my 4 year old son throws toys for her. When that happens I calmly tell Butter "hey easy" and she'll back up a little and they have fun.
The fact is that kids are going to mess up sometimes and dogs will mess up sometimes. Of course I love my kids 100x more than the dogs, but that doesn't make me blind or stupid. I can still see when it's my kids who need correcting. I also know their strengths and weaknesses. Dylan is the bossy one and he has the tendency to try to boss the dogs around. Lily is the lovey one and she tries to hug and kiss the dogs. Those are things that I just have to watch and redirect. Dogs and kids are very similar in some ways. 

That's not saying that I haven't made mistakes. We had three senior dogs (Reese, Rocky, and Puck) when my son was born. I made a lot of mistakes. The day I brought him home I held him laying on my lap and let the dogs sniff his head. I was talking to my husband and I looked down to see our girl dog, Reese, slowly putting my newborn baby's head in her mouth. It was a split second moment of fear and anger (and hormones) but I screamed and kicked her away from us. My husband jumped up and put Reese in the other room and yelled at me for kicking her. I was crying, the baby was crying, husband was yelling...dogs were freaked out. That was the first time they met the baby and it went to hell. Once I calmed down (only a couple minutes later) I felt horrible. I had never done anything like that before. I just reacted with my protective new mother nerves. After that happened, poor Reese wanted nothing to do with the baby. She got nervous anytime we brought her into the same room with him. Once he got older and started crawling and walking, we had to be extremely careful. The first time she snapped at him was when he lost his balance and put his hand out on her leg, the second time was when they both wanted attention from my husband. She never made contact with him but sure didn't feel comfortable around him. We put up baby gates to separate them and started only bringing the dogs into the living room when the baby was in bed, which was another mistake really.
After Reese and Puck died, we tried to start having Rocky be more involved with "family time" since he was very affected by Reese's death. It did not work. Whether it was because he was never a very stable dog or the fact that we had kept the kids and dogs separate for the past couple of years, I don't know. One day my son put his arm around Rocky's neck for a hug and my husband reached to make sure Dylan was gentle and Rocky turned around and bit Dylan's face. It bled and was bruised. We were upset but we knew that it had been provoked. A few weeks later, Rocky was laying on the couch and my son laid his head on his paw and Rocky jumped and bit his head. No blood this time but he did have a bruise. Again we made excuses and we tried to work on fixing the issues. We had my son start giving Rocky treats and kept Rocky on a leash for awhile when they were together. Months went by and we thought things were getting better (even though Rocky's other problems were getting worse). Then one day my little girl was quietly sitting on the floor playing with her doll and we watched Rocky get up from where he was laying, walk right over to her, sniff her cheek,(she smiled) and then he snarled and bit her face. That was finally the end. We had him pts 3 days later. There were other issues and problems with him but that was the final deciding moment.

So back to the original topic. There is no black and white when it comes to dog bites. It depends on the situation, the bite, and the dog.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I will never have kids so let's say I could never ever think of giving one of my dogs up because of something else ... I love my dogs so much that I would end up resenting the child for "making me" get rid of my dog(s). I would be like "your the thing that made me give up my dog" 

That's jut the way I would feel about it ... Which is why I leave the parenting for others who are better suited for it.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Leah00 said:


> I usually try to avoid any topic on a dog forum that is about dogs with children. It seems that the majority of "dog forum people" (haha) are childless and so there's usually a common thought where dogs are just being dogs and make mistakes but children are dumb, evil little creatures. Then there are the parenting forums where kids will be kids and not do everything right but dogs are held to insanely high standards and if the dog doesn't live up to those standards it, then the advise is "get rid of it".
> The world needs a "Mothers Who Love Dogs" forum for us in the minority.
> 
> But seriously, I actually agree with most of you. I work really hard to make sure that my children and my dogs enjoy and respect each other. I do not hold either of them to super high standards. I have a 21 month old baby girl who occasionally gets a little rough with her hugs and petting. When that happens I calmly tell her "be easy" and show her how the right way. The dogs lick her face and everything is fine. Buttercup will get a little rough when my 4 year old son throws toys for her. When that happens I calmly tell Butter "hey easy" and she'll back up a little and they have fun.
> ...


I'm glad there's a mother who loves both her kids and dogs! 

Me and my husband are planning to have kids in a few years, and I would say that I would always put my kids in the first place. But on the other hand, I would never set my expectations too high for my dog, as in if he ever bites for the first time for whatever reason then he would be given up. I would evaluate the situation, thinking of the reason why it happened, and think if I can deal with the issue. If things can be solved, or if it's actually an exception (like dog was in pain and we didn't know), then we wouldn't give the dog up. But if it's something that is more complicated, and I can't ensure safety anymore, I would have to give the dog up.
Yet before having kids, I would make sure to learn as much as I can, as well as prepare my dog through training as much as I can, so that when we have kids, we can make sure things can go as smooth as they can. I think that it would just be unfair for both kid and dog if I don't prepare for it and just expect their meeting to be smooth anyways. And I think that if some people were properly prepared for dealing with common dog issues such as RG, territorial or fear/insecurity, things might have been easier and less dogs would be PTSed (since the beginning of those issues are usually easy to deal with for experienced owners).
(with this last paragraph I didn't mean your case, since your case was a hard and complicated one. I was talking in a general way instead)


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## Leah00 (Jul 6, 2012)

sheep said:


> I'm glad there's a mother who loves both her kids and dogs!
> 
> Me and my husband are planning to have kids in a few years, and I would say that I would always put my kids in the first place. But on the other hand, I would never set my expectations too high for my dog, as in if he ever bites for the first time for whatever reason then he would be given up. I would evaluate the situation, thinking of the reason why it happened, and think if I can deal with the issue. If things can be solved, or if it's actually an exception (like dog was in pain and we didn't know), then we wouldn't give the dog up. But if it's something that is more complicated, and I can't ensure safety anymore, I would have to give the dog up.
> Yet before having kids, I would make sure to learn as much as I can, as well as prepare my dog through training as much as I can, so that when we have kids, we can make sure things can go as smooth as they can. I think that it would just be unfair for both kid and dog if I don't prepare for it and just expect their meeting to be smooth anyways. And I think that if some people were properly prepared for dealing with common dog issues such as RG, territorial or fear/insecurity, things might have been easier and less dogs would be PTSed (since the beginning of those issues are usually easy to deal with for experienced owners).
> (with this last paragraph I didn't mean your case, since your case was a hard and complicated one. I was talking in a general way instead)


Yes, our case with Rocky was very hard and complicated. He was always kind of "off" and he never bonded closely to us, but became almost obsessed with Reese. After she died, he went downhill quickly. Our vet thinks that he suffered from some sort of mental illness. 

Anyway, you are doing the smart thing! I would say to start learning and preparing before you even get pregnant, because once that happens it's hard to think about anything else and the time goes so fast. I had all these plans on how I was going to do things, but I never made time before the baby came. Then suddenly he was here and in a split second I ruined everything.  But you live and you learn....

I know that everyone makes mistakes. Moms, kids, and dogs included.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

Kids and dogs can be an incredible combination. I wouldn't trade my childhood dog Buster for anything, but they do require a lot of work on both sides to make sure everything is safe and sometimes people just get in over their head.

We had a golden retriever when I was 7-8 named Freddy. We got him at age 1.5 from a breeder that we though was reputable. On our first day home he attacked a Great Dane puppy (couldn't have been more than 10 weeks) and drew blood. My parents thought it might just be stress and we hired dogwalkers/trainers to make sure he was getting plenty of exercise. It became clear that Freddy had a screw loose upstairs. He was a very sweet dog with us kids but he had weird quirks that make me wonder now about his socialization and possible abuse as well as bad nerves. He would pace and whine when the tv was on, cower in fear when the doorbell rang or if anyone had an object in their hands. The dogwalkers said he would sometimes snap on walks that at first he loved the other dogs and then suddenly with no warning he would go for the throat (and these are experienced dog handlers working with dogs for 20 odd years). When being walked he would occasionally snap that way at men walking by, again with no warning signs.

We had him for a year until our walkers/trainer told us they would never be comfortable with this dog in a household with kids. At this point my parents had 4 kids under the age of 10 including a baby just learning to walk. Freddy was only ever sweet to our family and us kids but I can see how my parents with no dog experience were in WAY over their heads. Freddy went back to the breeder. I wish now he had gone to a rescue instead because I wonder how he ended up such a mess at only 1.5. I was way too young to know anything or do anything though. I was really sad to see freddy go but I totally understand why now, they were lied to by the breeder and ended up in a situation they simply couldn't handle. I think they made the only safe choice.

Even though we did everything 'right' with the breeder the first time round it ended terribly. Funnily enough our next dog Buster was a Bernese from a pet store who lived healthily to the ripe old age of 10.5. Again, purchased long before I knew anything about pet stores and puppy mills...


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## InkedMarie (Mar 11, 2009)

I'm someone who returned a dog who bit. Two & a half years ago, we adopted a coonhound from a shelter. She was a transfer from a southern state. About a month after we got here, the seperation anxiety set in. I've never dealt with that before, hope I never have to again. That escalated from barking while we were gone to, at the end, coming home to a river of saliva, urine and feces, both in the crate and coming out it. We had a repairman who came here and said she nipped him, then he laughed it off so I didn't know if he was kidding or not. She then nipped our dil. We had an appointment set with the trainer but in the meantime, a family member casme over. We were just standing in the backyard, talking. Dixie ran up, bit Debbie in the hand, twice, drawing blood in both places, whirled around and bit her thigh. We were all there, debbiebwasn't even talking, I was but she was just standing there. We saw nothing that she did to warrant a bite. Our two grandchildren were then 2 yrs old and I could not keep Dixie. I couldn't take a chance, their faces were at her mouth level. With her SA and the bite, we wanted her pts, I personally thought she wasn't right in the head, so to speak. The shelter wouldn't t let me do that so they took her back and adopted her out.


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## Roloni (Aug 5, 2011)

"Should dogs be given up the first moment they bite/snap? "




No


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

I think this topic is geared more twds those of society (not us dog lovers of course) who give up a dog the first second it isn't perfect or convenient anymore THAT I don't agree with, I see owning a dog as a "for better or worse" commitment.


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## GizmosPuppyMill (Nov 20, 2012)

If a dog bites once, no it may not always be time to get rid of them depends on the circumstances. Unless the problem has been allowed to go too far it should be correctable with some amount of training.


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> I think this topic is geared more twds those of society (not us dog lovers of course) who give up a dog the first second it isn't perfect or convenient anymore THAT I don't agree with, I see owning a dog as a "for better or worse" commitment.


Yeah exactly.  Giving up the second it becomes inconvenient or a liability is not the same as giving a dog a chance by taking time to analyze or even deal with the issue and only giving up if it's out of one's capacity and being too risky.

Of course, there are cases in which the issue is more complicated and even by giving it more chances, things wouldn't improve and would just put others at risk. But if I get a dog, I'd make sure that I'm able to deal with at least some of the most common issues. Some aggression issues are not hard to deal with if they are just at the beginning. I'd also make sure I can provide safety to my children, and not only relying on expectations of dog behaving perfectly and never ever biting or hurting children in any way (like bumping or stepping over too).


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Yes there are dogs who are badly bred, from a bad "home life" or have a mental defect that if hey are bad enough (like the dog on pitbulls & parolees that was so aggressive & unstable from bad breeding that he had to be kept in an outside kennel) where the dog can't be managed or the behavior modified should be PTS not from a convenience standpoint but because its not fair to the dog to have to live like that, shut away from their family & not able to have a "normal" doggy life. But ONLY a professional should evaluate if in fact a dog is one of those dogs, & EVEY medical reason including meds should be ruled out before euthanasia is on the table. 

A dog who warns a person & /or snaps at them after provocation (most ppl don't know that things they do can be threatening to a dog) & those kinds of folks get no sympethies or understanding from me, sorry to say but PTS'ing a dog just because of something like that is lazy & a quick fix .. Not to mention a bad lesson to teach kids.


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## enzamatic (Jan 25, 2013)

I want to jump in on this thread. My context is - my mom is considering getting a new dog after hers passed away a few months ago, and this started us talking about dog aggression/predictability/breed questions/socialization/obedience/proper exercise etc etc. I wanted to talk to a group of experienced dog owners, but also to provide an example because I am that mythical beast, the person who had a unexplained, to this-point-talking-with-several-behavioralists-cannot-identify-trigger, serious to the face dog attack on my then 10yo son. I wanted to give the opportunity to explore the situation and for people to ask questions, because we did end up giving our dog away (to a man who trains dogs for wireless fences), and we STILL grieve for him and question our decision. But I don't know how we could have made a different one. I was just completely relieved that we were able to rehome him.

Here is the story:
Our dog was a border collie, from a reputable breeder who had many excellent references on her dogs temperament being less obsessive/nutso OCD-ish than sometimes border collie can naturally be, being bred to work long intense hours of course. I've been a dog lover all my life, I was raised with two large collies that I spent more time with than the rest of my family I think lol. I did 4H obedience classes with one of them. I know about approaching dogs, what kinds of things provoke them (food guarding, new situations/people, while sleeping, location "prime cushy spot" guarding, people guarding, chaining out, etc). 

When we got Spider, we had him neutered. We started obedience classes (maybe 12 weeks was when it started I think?). We finished that course and did the next level as well. Through this we had our two sons, then 8 & 10, do the training with us. At home, to keep them in proper position in the pack above the dogs, we had them be the ones to feed him. He never slept in the bed, when he was let up there to hang out after a little bit he would get down on his own accord. Same with the couch. With the puppy teething, we would take a chewy toy and hand it to him. Because of that, even when he got older, if we were rubbing his belly or playing in the yard or something he would go get a toy to keep in his mouth. 

Towards the end of that last obedience session he gradually stopped being easy to introduce to other dogs. There was a dog at the end of the street, an akita in a fenced yard, that he was terribly afraid of though he never met outside the fence. When we passed this house on our walks, he would do one of those "like on tv" red zone reactions, where he would basically start drooling crazy, bark madly, pull hard at the end of the leash, basically just become unresponsive until we were about 20 feet past the house. Even if I stayed on the other side of the street. The yard was about two down, so maybe hearing him bark during the day sometimes scared him? I don't know.

Spider got plenty of exercise. Daily we would go out, even in the cold, and "frisbee" him. I would keep two, throw one, run to the other side of the yard, throw another, so he was constantly moving. He had no problem giving up the toy. He was pretty ok with dogs that would visit our house but would occasionally get a little growly about one getting a ball from him, a little more than a warning off I think. But never a human, only dogs, and not even all dogs or all the time. Also, at the time I was running 3-5 days a week and I brought him with me most days. On the runs, when we passed other dogs, I had to hold the leash so that he only had about 2 feet max to my side and swerve a bit, because he started getting that neighbor-akita-acting way about strange dogs on the run. Still ok with visiting dogs, but just dogs on our runs. Oh - we also had two basenjis at home, EXTREMELY docile with no issue with other dogs or aggression issues with anyone/thing. Never an issue with them.

With kids - well Spider never met a kid or adult he didn't like. We would be in the yard, kids taking turns throwing him things, playing in the snow with them, he loved, loved, loved kids. I never observed any kids mistreating him nor did my kids. Also, and i'm not being deceptive about this in any way, I have extremely calm bookish boys. They literally have never wrestled with each other, and would come home from neighborhood boys' houses saying "eh, they wanted to play too rough" when those kids wanted to wrestle on a trampoline or something. They didn't go through that "all boy" stage, but were more into puzzles and games, legos and building. 

Ok finally our incident:
One morning we're getting ready for school. I'm still sitting up in bed. 8yo comes in the room, sits on bed. Spider follows him, 8yo invites him onto the bed with a pat. He's laying on his side, I'm putting him, 8yo is petting him, he's happy...this is a scene that occured often, not a new situation for him by any means to have all 4 of us petting him like this on the bed. 10yo comes in the room, pets him gently a little on his hip, Spider can see him, it wasn't a startle from behind. After about 15 seconds, Spider freezes. Here is where I wish I had the presence of mind to remember my own training - a dog that freezes up but does not growl is going to attack. But you know what? It looks EXACTLY like they're stopping because they hear something, but their ears aren't up the're slightly back. I missed the ears. I remember in retrospect saying "what's up Spider"? And then he attacked my 10yo's face, not a single snap and back, but 3 good bites, xander jumped back and I pushed Spider off the bed, he was not stopping on his own immediately like a "nip". Now this was all made a good deal scarier because I did not have my contacts in and could just see red on my son's face. In the end, the damage ended up being a good sized tear inside his nose, a kernel of corn-sized hunk out of his cheek, and a scrape along his nose. He only has a mild scar from it. 

We all sobbed, all day long. Spider was so sad and submissive, but was not hit/kicked/etc, just told sternly to go lay down, show us his belly, then so we could take care of things after a few moments crated. After a lengthy debate, we removed him for our house temporarily while we got in touch with some behavioralists, some nearby, some with rescue orgs, about 4-5 people in total I had a half hour or so conversation with. Short answer - having ruled out the usual casual responses about how the owner must have been inexperienced, kids must have teased the dog, must have been running from it, must have been near its food, must have been strangers, dog must have been physically punished or abused, etc etc - I was basically told that they were not sure what we would work on. We have kids over, I can't tell my kids they can't have friends over. If it was just my kids, we might have kept him. But I can't train every kid in the world and I did not want him to live most afternoons sequestered in a crate. And because I did not have a specific training issue I could work on, we were already doing "all the right things", I did not know that I could keep my kids save, let alone have someone else's kid be seriously injured when I knew there was a chance of a problem. Luckily, we got in touch with this man who kept him as I mentionned above, someone without kids that trains dogs for a living.

Here are my questions for you guys to think about:
1. What training would you have done that we were not doing? If I had this knowledge and was doing all these right things, what are we saying - that only professional dog trainers have enough knowledge to own dogs?

2. What would you have done, and how would you have guaranteed the dog had a good life (not crated every afternoon, etc) while protecting your and other kids from potentially fatal harm (he was a very large border collie at 60-70 lbs).

3. What would have been your sign that we had an issue? If it's the "with other dog" behavior, what is your opinion on taking in a dog that has dog aggression but no other issues? Would you have considered that a potential safety concern, or thought that wasn't really transferred to behavior to people as I did?

I just had to comment because every time I hear about an unprovoked aggression incident, I hear about people's assumptions and hunches about the person telling the story leaving things out, not being honest, or not having seen something. I think we're making a big mistake, because we're denying the incident rather than trying to really figure out how to keep this from happening. I no longer have the confidence I once did with dogs - I no longer believe that I can know for certain that even my own well-known, well-behaved, well-trained dog will never attack, and i really grieve for that loss. Both of my comfort/confidence and for the dog we miss. My decision has been that I meet both parents of the dog in person, try not to get the boldest of the pups in the litter, probably not have another herding dog, and keep to mid-size non-nervous breeds. For a while I think I'll only have basenjis because I know specifically their training so well (we had a basenji that would scoot, roll over, etc - rare for this independent-thinking feral-ish breed).

When it comes to pit bills in particular, if we are indeed talking about particular breed which I know people misclassify/misname dogs all the time, there have been reports on msg boards by people whose dog or a relative's dog attacked a child in its own family unprovoked in a similar situation to mine. Is it possible that they're having something happen like I did? Rather than assuming something unsaid must have occured, we REALLY need to help these people with some practical training advice or learn how to properly screen the dogs for this type of behavior if that's at all possible. If that really is happening, it's very possible we are NOT catching it in our shelter screening but just catching dogs that have completely different possibly less dangerous issues like food-guarding. We need to have an answer because without an answer up to blowing this off with assumptions, people come up with solutions like breed bans.

What is your recommendation for people adopting dogs from shelters? They won't know the dogs relatives to see if there are odd behaviors/unreliability, they can't know how it was treated before...and yet we advise people to really only get an adopted dog. I'm very uncertain how I would advise people, my mother in particular?


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## enzamatic (Jan 25, 2013)

One comment to add, regarding that neighbor dog at tend of street, I even tried walking him with a constant handful of lunchmeat I was pinching peices from about every 20 feet. About 30 feet from that dog's fence, he wouldn't even look at the meat in my hand. It was like nothing else existed but that dog.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> but you can't say what happens in some ones home.. When we were kids and go with my parents to their grown up friends house. My parents would drive and see that their friends had dogs. My dad would turn around and look at us and say, they have dogs DON'T get them in trouble, they are not your dogs and you don't know what they know. I loved the world when people saw dogs as mindless animals and not the fluffy cute family members. that is not a discredit to the dogs intelligence, but it made it easier for humans to be more mindful.


I wish people had such sense these days! One of my dogs did snap-- it left a mark, it did draw blood (level of a scratch left by a fingernail)-- the child was a toddler-- I was in the kitchen cooking lunch for my friend, her grandchild was over with childs mom, unbeknownst to me, she called my dog over to her fed a a bunch of cheese sticks, gave some to said toddler as well, and my dog was laying down eating, and the toddler came over to grab some OUT OF HER MOUTH with two adults present and watching, and my dog snapped at her (yes it was the face/cheek, when the kid is 2 feet tall and bending over into the dog that is in range). 
I am very grateful they did not report my dog to the authorities and my dog will not be back over again, and has never had problems with children before/since( we arent around alot of children and she is well confined) ...But really, you stand there and watch this and do not intervene! My friend still talks about my vicious dog (her other friend, there were actually 3 adults there-- actually commented-- the dog was EATING). I would never have put my dog in that situation(had I known they would start feeding the dog and not supervise the child, I feel bad that I didnt just turn around and take the dog out the minute I saw the child)- I guess their family dog -- a shit zu poo mix has to put up with that all the time and that is their expectation...


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## Alfy (Jan 23, 2013)

I hear a lot of cases about dogs growling at or nipping kids. I always ask who they think was at fault. They say the dog. I say no. They say, "are you saying my child was at fault?" I say maybe he was but that's not what I'm saying. The adult is at fault. When kids and dogs are together, and something goes wrong, it is the fault of the adult present. No adult present? Even more fault.

Also, we do a lot of rescue. I took in a australian shepherd that supposedly bit a kid (one time). The guy was all indignant - "I will not risk my child's life! Nothing comes before my child!" Fine, sign the release and go. He goes on to tell me the dog cannot be placed in a home with kids. Thanks for the advice, expert. A couple month's later he called to see what happened to the dog. I think he expected to hear that he had been put down. He sounded really disappointed when I told him the dog was in a home with two young kids and everything was great. The dog was getting exercise and structure, the kids were being supervised.

Seriously, if I've learned anything it is that far far more problems lie with owners than with the dogs.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Well nobody on the internet can really say from this single incident what happened. My _guess_ would be that there was more going on before the bite incident in terms of the dog having some level of discomfort with kids than you were aware of. I don't mean that as a dig or a criticism, but kids' completely normal behavior can be intimidating to dogs, and so much of dog body language can be really subtle and overlooked unless you are really looking for it - especially for an 8 year old and a 10 year old child. Your dog already was showing some escalating reactivity issues with other dogs (starting to generalize from the dog a couple doors down to dogs on your runs) so I have to wonder if there was some escalating discomfort with your kids as well that was just never recognized as such. I am NOT saying that your kids mistreated your dog or anything like that, I'm saying that unless the kids were never, ever alone with the dog there may have been some warning signs that they just weren't able to recognize as such and so you never knew about them because you never saw them and the kids never thought to tell you about because they didn't even know what they were. 

Also considering this is an athletic dog who jogs regularly, and the action immediately preceding the bite was being touched on his hip, I would wonder whether there was a subtle injury or painful joint involved.

I really, truly don't believe there is such a thing as an unprovoked bite. I think there are bites where we don't recognize the provocation, and there are bites where WE as humans don't think it was something "worth" biting over, but... unless an animal has a brain disease (and even then, there is a reason for them) I don't think bites truly happen out of the blue. I think we as humans are very trusting of the dogs we love and very poor at recognizing a lot of warning signs for what they are. And especially for kids, they can't be expected to interpret subtle changes in body language and recognize them for what they truly are, so we can't always rely on their interpretations of their interactions with dogs - especially if an adult was not present. Again, not a dig on or accusation against your kids, just a reality.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I just got involved with a situation that I don't like, but don't disagree with. My neighbor has a 2 yo small Lab mix. The dog bites without warning (I think the neighbor "taught" the dog not to growl.) The dog has been biting for a while. He has never bitten me, and he has never bitten the father, but has bitten other people coming into the house.

Yesterday, the dog was drinking water and made a mess on the floor. The 11 yo daughter reached down to clean the water, and the dog latched onto her wrist, leaving a 1 inch open wound that will require stitches, maybe more. I saw the attack and it scared me (looking like the Cesar video that went around a few months ago). The dog was trying to do damage, letting go only after we got up to help. The father put the dog in the back yard. There was no warning and there was no food. I didn't see a unique interaction or body language, indicating fear or guarding.

They spent four hours at the emergency room, and I haven't heard details, but when they left, the intent was to put the dog down. I might disagree if this were the first time, but this has been going on for a while, and now seems to be escalating. This dog is dangerous, and I won't argue with their decision. But, it hurts me to say that.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

hanksimon said:


> I just got involved with a situation that I don't like, but don't disagree with. My neighbor has a 2 yo small Lab mix. The dog bites without warning (I think the neighbor "taught" the dog not to growl.) The dog has been biting for a while. He has never bitten me, and he has never bitten the father, but has bitten other people coming into the house.
> 
> Yesterday, the dog was drinking water and made a mess on the floor. The 11 yo daughter reached down to clean the water, and the dog latched onto her wrist, leaving a 1 inch open wound that will require stitches, maybe more. I saw the attack and it scared me (looking like the Cesar video that went around a few months ago). The dog was trying to do damage, letting go only after we got up to help. The father put the dog in the back yard. There was no warning and there was no food. I didn't see a unique interaction or body language, indicating fear or guarding.
> 
> They spent four hours at the emergency room, and I haven't heard details, but when they left, the intent was to put the dog down. I might disagree if this were the first time, but this has been going on for a while, and now seems to be escalating. This dog is dangerous, and I won't argue with their decision. But, it hurts me to say that.


You also don't know the history of what goes on in the house. When I was a kid, our dog would go nuts and attack you seemingly unprovoked if you had a rag in your hand and tried to clean something off the floor in his presence, even if it had nothing to do with him. He would literally go from seemingly sound asleep or just walking through the room to flying across the room trying to bite you the second he saw you so much as try to wipe up spilled milk or something. 

The history behind that is that when he was housetrained, after accidents were cleaned up with a rag or towel in his presence he was punished fairly harshly. So to an outside observer, the dog attacked seemingly without provocation. To him, cleaning up a spill was a scary, scary thing.


ETA: I'm not saying your neighbor made a bad decision necessarily. I'm just saying that rather than not being a trigger, I think there was probably a trigger there that you just weren't aware of, not actually living with the dog yourself. If they punished the growl out of the dog, who knows what else they punished INTO the dog.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

Easily, could be. Unfortunately, the dog did as level-3 or worse bite on a child.

This example did shove home to me even more strongly how important Bite Inhibition is ... I think I understand why Dunbar sounds like such a fanatic.


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> Easily, could be. Unfortunately, the dog did as level-3 or worse bite on a child.
> 
> This example did shove home to me even more strongly how important Bite Inhibition is ... I think I understand why Dunbar sounds like such a fanatic.


Exactly, as horrible as I feel about my dog snapping at the toddler, if the dog had not had bite inhibition, the child could have been seriously hurt (it is a BIG dog).. Can I say I feel paranoid even typing this stuff out online I feel like the Police are going to track me down and arrest my dog ...


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

I did my own not being mindful with a BC, I've been home watching him for months while Rose his owner was at the hospital with her husband in another city day and night. When Rose was home I was sitting on the floor and Patch cuddled up against me as we often sat when I came over and spent time letting him outside during the day. I forgot where I was and whom I was with and went to kiss patch on the side of his face like I would my own. "Flash" Patch 3 faster then lightening snaps center of my face, his hot breath parted my bangs and I felt his cold nose touch mine 3 quick times. I'm a natural deer in the headlights reaction person so I just squinted and froze where I was. (and this is an important key) dogs when they correct and correct with meaning and swift force are on top of their mark (the other dog) the other dogs normally freeze and take the correction unharmed.. *Humans don't* they jump. get in the way of the correction as the dog doesn't know a human reacts that way, and the dog doesn't compenstate very well when humans move, then think of pulling away during a dog putting out a correction and upping the intensity over compensating and getting into a direct bite.. 

Rose jumped to correct Patch and I stopped her, because I was wrong, and I was very wrong in my behavior. For me it was over, point taken and it was over for Patch "no fear, or hard feelings from him". From that day on Rose worked on kissing Patch and really getting into his face for positive interaction since she has grandkids and never thought of one of them ever trying to kiss him or hold his head since she isn't a cuddly person towards dogs, (they are workers to her).. Rose was more mindful for patch.. but very aware to watch over and protect him more.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

Did want to add this if you have ever watched a dog correct another dog,, if the dog goes to move their head away (slowly turn), the other dog actually grabs on to the dog to finish the correction.. ear, cheek, muzzle area ... These are behaviors of the dog accepting the correction from the other dog

But when the other dog isn't accepting of receiving a correction they counter act swinging towards the correcting dog and the correcting dog jumps harder to take back charge of giving the correction.. here's where you more likely get a puncture wound as more force was given to hold the other dog in the situation

non of these are meant for a knock down attack of doing harm. but if the correct tee, doesn't accept and submit more force will be applied


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## Candydb (Jul 16, 2011)

PatriciafromCO said:


> Did want to add this if you have ever watched a dog correct another dog,, if the dog goes to move their head away (slowly turn), the other dog actually grabs on to the dog to finish the correction.. ear, cheek, muzzle area ... These are behaviors of the dog accepting the correction from the other dog
> 
> But when the other dog isn't accepting of receiving a correction they counter act swinging towards the correcting dog and the
> correcting dog jumps harder to take back charge of giving the correction.. here's where you more likely get a puncture wound as more force was given to hold the other dog in the situation
> ...


Sadly, dogs are not allowed to speak dog. If a dog corrects a child, 99 times out of 100, the dog is the one punished (the owner loses the dog/ gets fined/ the dog pays with its life or liberty).
PS I am for the record a dog loving mom of a 10 year old child (who does speak dog pretty well).


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## sheep (Aug 22, 2012)

Unfortunately, many things could be avoided if both dog and children are properly trained, plus better supervision. I agree that it was better when people were more mindful that dogs are irrational animals, as it makes them more careful and aware that dogs can bite. Nowadays too many owners trust their dogs with their kids too much, and then only blames the dog for everything.

But I can understand how the parents would feel when a dog gets dangerous... It's not that they don't love their dog, but when a dog becomes dangerous around your defenseless child, as parents you just can't risk your children's safety. I would try to prepare my dog for being safe around children, but then if I can't do anything, I'd probably rehome the dog too.

Thinking about these situations saddens me, I hope that I won't have to think about it, and I hope that many people are more aware of these dangers and be better prepared, in order to avoid these situations.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

I came across this little gem on one of my other forums... "A well trained dog will _never_ bite." 

My answer was "anything with teeth can bite. A well-trained dog and a little dog sense will greatly reduce the chances though."


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

There was a dog (a very nice BC, her well behaved on a leash sitting next to his owner) at the flea market the last time we went (dogs are allowed there). His owner (an older man) was talking & minding his own business when a kid (who was about 10 or so ... Old enough to know better IMHO) squealed "oh look a dog!" & went running up to the dog, luckily the dog was nice about it, but I was like WTH??? What's wrong with parents??? It's not just about the dog's safety.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

aiw said:


> I came across this little gem on one of my other forums... "A well trained dog will _never_ bite."
> 
> My answer was "anything with teeth can bite. A well-trained dog and a little dog sense will greatly reduce the chances though."


I agree strongly that a well-trained dog can bite. A dog trained with Bite inhibition doesn't have to have any other training, to avoid biting.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

My detection dog lost his home over a pretty severe face bite to a child. 4 deep punctures, 2 on each side of the face. I was told that the child took his bone and and placed the dog bone in the child's mouth and then got in the dogs face and teased him while he bit the dog's bone. The dog then grabbed his bone and put a 4 puncture bite on the kid's face while doing it. The dog ended up in the shelter. He got selected for detection training for narcotics and ended up with me.

He was a truck-load of dog. Really. But we had a blast. He bit a jailer once when the jailer "tested" what would happen if he shoved me. The bite was bloody but didn't need stitches... And I didn't hesitate to keep him. Great dog, but out of his mind much of the time. Never bit me. Never bit anyone who didn't act like a total idiot either.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

agree that its a personal decision. however, I also relize their are so many dogs euthed and in shelters because of the fact that people want dogs and then unwant them for personal reasons.

Not puppy mills or lack of fixing dogs. those are the symptoms of the primary problem


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

My best trained dog was that way because she was more likely to bite.


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## EdDTS (May 30, 2012)

My dog snapped when he got scared.
He held himself back and didn't take the vets face off like he could have.
He's still a good boy. I wouldn't dream of giving him away. He's scared, he's in a not familiar environment, tons of sights and smells I can't blame him.
He's gotten along great with kids of all ages.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

I see no problem with a growl or a snap that doesn't connect. When the dog connects, repeatedly, I think that's time for evaluation, depending on intent, location, and damage.


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## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

hanksimon said:


> I see no problem with a growl or a snap that doesn't connect. When the dog connects, repeatedly, I think that's time for evaluation, depending on intent, location, and damage.


all IMHO ....
I agree with this wholeheartedly ....... ^ ... ^ ... ^ ... ^ .........

Eddee has bitten me... more than once ... and the last time he drew blood. The reason was resource guarding. I worked through it. Now if that had been my Mother ... one strike and you are out!

If Eddee would continue to bite me ... then it would be time for an evaluation by a professional. There are dogs who unfortunately are just wired improperly ... by no real fault of their own. If they become a danger to society and are miserable ... then other measures unfortunately sometimes must be taken.


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## me&the.moon (Jan 27, 2013)

I'm gonna weigh in on this due to personal experience. I didn't read through the whole thread (forgive me!)

Back in June, I was browsing for a rescue dog. I found a pure blood, adult, Golden Retriever named Cato for adoption through animal control about an hour from here. Since I've always wanted a Golden and he was scheduled to be PTS (overcrowding), I went and got him. When I got there, he was a doll. Total sweetheart. Slightly jumpy (at 80+lbs), but otherwise really amazing. They did a heart worm test on him and it came back a mild positive and I decided to adopt him regardless and put him through treatment.

The day after we got home, we got a call from the shelter telling us we needed to bring him back to for quarentine because they'd gotten a call from a "victim" who had been bitten by him. He had been an owner surrender. I didn't believe it - he was the sweetest dog! I insisted they had the wrong dog, but they insisted. They agreed to let me do the quarentine at my house - which I did.

A few weeks later, I was out shopping with my grandmother when my friend came over to the house. My husband let her in; everything was fine. I came back to find out that Cato had tried to attack my friend. Complete and total unprovoked attack. Not a bite - ATTACK. I didn't believe it, again, until we let him inside and he tried it a second time. It was like there had been a switch that went off inside him. Now, Cato wasn't a poodle or a beagle or something small. He was upwards of an EIGHTY pound dog. To me, he was a doll. Complete and total sweetheart. He was potty trained, walked well on a leash, was obedient. 

We had to make the hard decision to have Cato PTS for the completely random unprovoked aggression. He had already bitten someone, and if I had never seen it for myself, I would never have believed it. The fact that he was such a total sweetheart one moment and so dangerous the next was the reason we had to make that choice. We were getting married in August and there was no one that would watch a dog with such aggression issues (and we didn't want to risk coming back to a bitten dog-sitter and a law suit). We're a young couple and we plan to have kids in the near-ish future (in the next couple of years) and that is not the sort of risk we could deal with. Even without kids, we couldn't have had people over, taken him on walks, to the park, etc, without fearing for others and potentially putting ourselves in a place where we could be liable if he attacked. The Golden rescues in the area were not taking intakes at the time and they didn't accept any dogs that had shown aggression, anyhow. It wasn't fair to anyone, either, to attempt to re-home him. 

Basically, it was the hardest decision I have ever had to make in my entire life, and - 7 months later - I still tear up when I think about him. I can't even say his name out loud or talk about him. 

So.. It really depends. I think that some people are idiots for getting certain types of dogs when they have kids, not training the dog, and then getting mad when the dog nips the kid in the face or getting mad when the dog reacts to the kid abusing/being rough with the dog. However, there *ARE* situations, in my opinion, where sometimes the best thing that can be done is to have the dog PTS. Rehoming is a grey area for me - because *YOU* got the dog. If the dog is bad enough that the dog needs to be PTS, that's one thing. If it's something that can be fixed with training, I feel that it is the responsibility of the owner to do so, rather then taking the easy way out. My .2c


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

A dog knows how to hurt someone/something, if they dont its because they didnt mean/want to.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

me&the.moon said:


> So.. It really depends. I think that some people are idiots for getting certain types of dogs when they have kids, not training the dog, and then getting mad when the dog nips the kid in the face or getting mad when the dog reacts to the kid abusing/being rough with the dog. However, there *ARE* situations, in my opinion, where sometimes the best thing that can be done is to have the dog PTS. Rehoming is a grey area for me - because *YOU* got the dog. If the dog is bad enough that the dog needs to be PTS, that's one thing. If it's something that can be fixed with training, I feel that it is the responsibility of the owner to do so, rather then taking the easy way out. My .2c


My family owned a golden like that. He was always a sweetheart with the family but he had some serious (and very scary) dog aggression. He had weird behaviour tics like the doorbell would send him cowering and he paced and whined when the TV was on. There were a couple incidents when he was aggressive (unprovoked) towards strange men. We had him for a year when our dogwalkers (with 25 years of experience) told my parents they could never be comfortable with this dog in a home with kids. At the time my parents were very inexperienced dog handlers and had 4 kids under the age of 10 including a baby just learning to walk.

Freddy went back to the breeder, but if he hadn't gone there its likely he would have been euth'd. I was very attached to Freddy but now I think my parents decision was really the only safe one. We were lucky that the breeder took him back (although he arrived with us at a year old and already had these issues so nowadays I wonder about that breeder). If we couldn't have found a very, very experienced home to take him I think euthanasia would have been the only other choice. Its very sad when it happens, but sometimes its necessary to keep everyone safe.


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

I'm surprised at the number of people who think that after one situation LIKE THIS a dog should be put to sleep. Unless there is some serious health issue causing neurotic behaviour, dogs don't just attack. People may not see it as a provoked attack but it likely is. When it comes to kids, sometimes their approach will scare the dog if he/she is not accustomed to kids. Might be food aggression. Might be the child is actually bothering the dog. I've seen a number of kids plain harass animals because they think it's funny. If a dog is unstable or insecure or just unsure he can attack and that would still be on the owner, perhaps thinking everything is fine because at home the dog's behaviour is acceptable and one doesn't notice an underlying issue. In any case I don't think one can have this one situation and think it's fair to just euthanise an animal. Personally one bite like this is not enough for me to hand over my dog but if you have children and or you're that concerned then maybe you shouldn't have a dog or that dog. Terriers are especially iffy because they're so exuberant usually and are normally prone to being snappy when excited or unsure.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

On the terrier website it actually says that a terrier will NOT put up with ill treatment/manhandling from a child. Most herding/working breeds are the same. some will put up with it (tho i dont think they should hsve to) but many will not. 

If I ever had kids & they got bit doing something stupid to/with a dog ... Any dog even if it wasn't mine then it would be an "I told you so" moment.


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## mrsahunter86 (Feb 6, 2013)

So if your kid was hurt so badly by the one time bite that it needed stitches you would say oh well that's your fault? A 2 or 3 year old child who looks to you for protection against everything in the world that could harm them? I'm sorry, I adore my dogs(sometimes even prefer them over my kids because they don't usually talk back) and like them over most people I know but I would NEVER allow a dog to seriously injure my child. My dog would definitely be PTS if I thought it was HA or even quick to anger when around children. And I have two terrier breeds. My children do occasionally get in their face, I correct them immediately and the dogs let them know its not wanted by either growling or air snapping. If it ever went farther than that I would most certainly put my dog down even though it would kill me and I would feel guilty for a long time. As far as the OPs story went, I think that not knowing the whole story, the owner might have overreacted. But I prefer overreaction over under reaction I guess.


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## jiml (Jun 19, 2008)

sheep said:


> Hmm but if PTS would be considered right after the first bite/snap on your own children no matter the circumstances, then wouldn't it be better to just not have dogs at all while you have young children at home? After all, there's no 100% safety when we bring a live being with teeth home, and PTS it for not being able to deal with it or is too afraid of risks doesn't really make it safe (there's always the possibility of the 1st bite).


Bingo. If you need the perfect predictable dog get a stuffed animal.

There are so many dogs in shelters because people want and then unwant dogs. Kiling the dog should never be a first option.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

would it be the same consideration be the same if it were a different animal.. pet , rat, Guinea pig , rabbit, cat, snake, turtle etc... or is it based on the threat of how much damage they could do.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> would it be the same consideration be the same if it were a different animal.. pet , rat, Guinea pig , rabbit, cat, snake, turtle etc... or is it based on the threat of how much damage they could do.


Speaking as someone who had a kid get bit and was advised to have the dog put down? When it was an old dog, getting startled by a toddler falling ON him (ie, my fault, and no i didnt put the poor old man to sleep for it) I don't think it's even potential damage all the time. I think it's a sense of entitlement when it comes to dogs. The unreasonable expectation that they are supposed to be unwaveringly loyal, devoted, exercise good sense, sacrifice for us without complaint, never think or feel or even exist as an animal- only an extension of our egos and desires and that everything else is unacceptable. The same sort of 'how dare you?' when the dog growls at them over a bone or out of fear, only more universal. 

Other animals don't get that burden, for whatever reason.


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

I would also like to include that even my 5 month old puppy if was unsure or startled by a child would probably nip anyone. I still find it surprising that a number of members would think the dog should be put down even if no real harm is done. My pup would do it and my small dog would be more likely. Surprisingly the most suitable breed for harsh treatment is a well bred pitbull, once known as the nanny dog, and then betrayed by people since now people have forgotten this history and now many are having them banned from entire counties, countries and properties.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

makes you wonder what has changed so much for the behaviors to have changed.. (nanny dog to killer is a huge sad jump) (when it wasn't easy to get an animal) you had to wait a log while and hear about someone with a proven purebred working dog having a litter to get one. (my grandparents telling story's about their time) My grandpaw was mule skinner and he made his family walk from logging camp to logging camp as not to over tax his team 2 horses and 4 mules pulling the wagon. But the dogs got to ride if they got tired lol lol lol ...My grandparents used "nanny dogs" for the kids who weren't in school but too little to pick in the field with my grandma. The stories my dad tells about having to listen to that dog not being allowed to wonder off. He said that dog would bite them if they tried to wonder off and my Grandparents would say good when they did get nipped for not minding. He gave us all dogs when we were infants,, mine was Lady a collie she was my sisters dog first then set with me after I was born. Makes you think what has changed...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> makes you wonder what has changed so much for the behaviors to have changed.. (nanny dog to killer is a huge sad jump) (when it wasn't easy to get an animal) you had to wait a log while and hear about someone with a proven purebred working dog having a litter to get one. (my grandparents telling story's about their time) My grandpaw was mule skinner and he made his family walk from logging camp to logging camp as not to over tax his team 2 horses and 4 mules pulling the wagon. But the dogs got to ride if they got tired lol lol lol ...My grandparents used "nanny dogs" for the kids who weren't in school but too little to pick in the field with my grandma. The stories my dad tells about having to listen to that dog not being allowed to wonder off. He said that dog would bite them if they tried to wonder off and my Grandparents would say good when they did get nipped for not minding. He gave us all dogs when we were infants,, mine was Lady a collie she was my sisters dog first then set with me after I was born. Makes you think what has changed...



My grandfather gave me a puppy when I was about four - a little feist/chi mix. She died when I was in my teens, and he tried to give me HIS dog - which was this big old rough collie, but more... scotch collie than what you see in rough collies, today. (No bozori head). He loved that dog, so of course I didn't take her, but there was a definite love of dogs, there.

I think what's changed is people still want to believe the 'nanny dog' thing, but to them it means something else. It means the dog is capable of human, rational, thought and reasoning AND it is going to put up with whatever is dished out by the kid. Not so much like a member of the family, but the family slave. They also don't understand, you know, training and socialization and things that used to be just common sense because you grew up with dogs around and it was just part of life, not some big, secondary, thing. I mean, really, how often have you (or any of us) run into people who say they want a dog just like ours, because they're so well behaved, but don't understand that it's training. Misbehavior must be a flaw in the DOG, it can't ever possibly be a problem with the OWNER.


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

not everyone that has a gun kills people, but allot of times people accidently kill hurt themselves and each other with guns. Dogs are the same level of force as guns are. Always the same respect given ,, do feel people try too hard even with good intentions to do right by the dogs but try to force/control too much too fast. Panic, fustrated, fearful causes bites and causes vicious attacks..


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## ThoseWordsAtBest (Mar 18, 2009)

mrsahunter86 said:


> So if your kid was hurt so badly by the one time bite that it needed stitches you would say oh well that's your fault? A 2 or 3 year old child who looks to you for protection against everything in the world that could harm them? I'm sorry, I adore my dogs(sometimes even prefer them over my kids because they don't usually talk back) and like them over most people I know but I would NEVER allow a dog to seriously injure my child. My dog would definitely be PTS if I thought it was HA or even quick to anger when around children. And I have two terrier breeds. My children do occasionally get in their face, I correct them immediately and the dogs let them know its not wanted by either growling or air snapping. If it ever went farther than that I would most certainly put my dog down even though it would kill me and I would feel guilty for a long time. As far as the OPs story went, I think that not knowing the whole story, the owner might have overreacted. But I prefer overreaction over under reaction I guess.


No, it's not the kid's fault just as much as it isn't the DOG'S fault. It's MY fault and I failed both the kid and the dog. If your kids keep getting in your dog's faces and eventually the dog bites them, how is that the dog's fault? Clearly they don't like it, they tell the kids off when it happens, but it keeps happening so what if one day one of them has had enough? That would be your fault.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

ThoseWordsAtBest said:


> No, it's not the kid's fault just as much as it isn't the DOG'S fault. It's MY fault and I failed both the kid and the dog. If your kids keep getting in your dog's faces and eventually the dog bites them, how is that the dog's fault? Clearly they don't like it, they tell the kids off when it happens, but it keeps happening so what if one day one of them has had enough? That would be your fault.


I'm with you - assuming freak accidental things, and if the dog IS giving warnings. My kid fell on an old lab (mentioned above) when the lab was asleep and the kid was barely a toddler. My fault, totally, for not paying better attention to where the dog was sleeping. The kid got a scratch and spit on him, and that was it. Good bite inhibition on that dog. If the dog had been growling to warn the kid off and the kid kept going - my fault, again. 

If there had been clear signals from the dog that the dog did not like the kid/want the kid in their face and I allowed ANY interaction between them: my (hypothetical) fault. (This is not the case - the fault was in allowing an old, sore, lab and a toddler to be in the room together, even though I didn't know they were, and I was right there.)

But I HAVE seen dogs who were adopted to families as 'good with kids' (or surrendered by a previous family with that information), as adults, respond to the first time the kid got within reaching distance with a snarl and a BAD bite that followed far too fast to be interrupted - and required medical care. First time incident. Like - when meeting the dog. In that case: the rescue can't take the dog and adopt it out again, because it's a liability. The dog (probably) can't stay in the home, because the dog hates the kids and is dangerous TO the kid; I can separate kids and dogs till I'm blue in the face, it's a risk I wouldn't be comfortable with taking with a dog that was THAT reactive to children - because children are unpredictable, hard to contain (especially as toddlers) and sometimes there are kids that aren't even mine. The owner of the kid and dog at the time of the bite can't admit there's a bite history and adopt out because of liability and lying just gets more people hurt and is unfair to everyone.

Do I think it's the dog's fault? Nope. I think the dog has been failed by a number of people. 

Would I put the dog to sleep? Unfortunately, yes. Because there's nowhere that dog can go, safely, ethically, and legally.


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## aiw (Jun 16, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> would it be the same consideration be the same if it were a different animal.. pet , rat, Guinea pig , rabbit, cat, snake, turtle etc... or is it based on the threat of how much damage they could do.


For me at least its very much damage based. The animals you listed can't do much damage (unless the snake is poisonous) and are also kept contained in a way that dogs humanely can't be. Even tiny dog vs. large dog the calculation is a bit different. I would feel more prepared to handle a chihuahua with biting issues than a pit or a GSD. Its all dependent though on the circumstance, history/personality of the dog, whether there are children involved. Can't fairly make a hard and fast rule. I will say that its my responsibility as an owner to keep everyone safe and if I can't be sure (say 99% barring major accidents or disasters) then it may be my responsibility to euthanize.



> My grandparents used "nanny dogs" for the kids who weren't in school but too little to pick in the field with my grandma. The stories my dad tells about having to listen to that dog not being allowed to wonder off. He said that dog would bite them if they tried to wonder off and my Grandparents would say good when they did get nipped for not minding. He gave us all dogs when we were infants,, mine was Lady a collie she was my sisters dog first then set with me after I was born. Makes you think what has changed...


What a cool childhood. Your grandparents must have been really savvy dog people. I'll admit I think the nanny dog concept is best left in the past, mostly because the people who might use it don't know much about dogs. We had a lovely Bernese when I was little who grew into a great dog but as a pup he was a nuisance to us kids. He would nip us and herd us and my dad thought it was so funny and cute. I point out nowadays that he wasn't the one getting bit. Buster didn't like us running around, playing with each other, or going in the water. Normal kid stuff. My dad (who is not really a dog trainer) thought he was a nanny dog in those years but I look back and realize he was an untrained nuisance.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

jiml said:


> Bingo. If you need the perfect predictable dog get a stuffed animal.
> 
> There are so many dogs in shelters because people want and then unwant dogs. Kiling the dog should never be a first option.


Yep ... You can train & train & whatnot but it doesn't matter because any dog, even a desensitized one or a really nice one can be provoked to snap if startled or injured.

I do my part, I just wish people would manage their kids & more importantly themselves (because let's face it ... Some adults are worse then kids :/) because I can only do so much


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> Yep ... You can train & train & whatnot but it doesn't matter because any dog, even a desensitized one or a really nice one can be provoked to snap if startled or injured.
> 
> I do my part, I just wish people would manage their kids & more importantly themselves (because let's face it ... Some adults are worse then kids :/) because I can only do so much


 wish we had Like buttons  one gal was upset because she was bitten very violently in the face. When I asked her what happened she said there were some dogs in the back of a pick up truck and she stepped up on the rear wheel to reach in and pet them and one of them attacked her just as she lifted up over the truck bed. She wanted them put to sleep because people shouldn't have vicious dogs and shouldn't be out in public. She was in a shopping parking lot to go shopping. Felt bad for having to deal with the scar for the rest of her life and just left it at that as she all these years later still blame the dogs and the owners.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

PatriciafromCO said:


> wish we had Like buttons  one gal was upset because she was bitten very violently in the face. When I asked her what happened she said there were some dogs in the back of a pick up truck and she stepped up on the rear wheel to reach in and pet them and one of them attacked her just as she lifted up over the truck bed. She wanted them put to sleep because people shouldn't have vicious dogs and shouldn't be out in public. She was in a shopping parking lot to go shopping. Felt bad for having to deal with the scar for the rest of her life and just left it at that as she all these years later still blame the dogs and the owners.


I had a dog who would do that, I think even my friendliest dog, buddy would do that.

Question ... A vechile is considered personal private property right? So in a situation like that would the law be on the side of the dog owner? I surely hope so ... There is no cute for stupid I tell you :/


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dogdragoness said:


> I had a dog who would do that, I think even my friendliest dog, buddy would do that.
> 
> Question ... A vechile is considered personal private property right? So in a situation like that would the law be on the side of the dog owner? I surely hope so ... There is no cute for stupid I tell you :/


There are many areas in the country (I don't believe Texas is one of them) where even if a burglar breaks into a home and gets bitten, you can still end up with your dog in deep trouble.


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## CuddlyKat (Apr 22, 2012)

PatriciafromCO said:


> wish we had Like buttons  one gal was upset because she was bitten very violently in the face. When I asked her what happened she said there were some dogs in the back of a pick up truck and she stepped up on the rear wheel to reach in and pet them and one of them attacked her just as she lifted up over the truck bed. She wanted them put to sleep because people shouldn't have vicious dogs and shouldn't be out in public. She was in a shopping parking lot to go shopping. Felt bad for having to deal with the scar for the rest of her life and just left it at that as she all these years later still blame the dogs and the owners.


....I would never think it's wise to climb onto someone's truck in a public parking lot to pet their dogs......Even if you wanted to pet their dogs and the owner is not there I would be very cautious and test the dogs reaction to me standing by the truck or something....This was not a wise thing to do....


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## PatriciafromCO (Oct 7, 2012)

CuddlyKat said:


> ....I would never think it's wise to climb onto someone's truck in a public parking lot to pet their dogs......Even if you wanted to pet their dogs and the owner is not there I would be very cautious and test the dogs reaction to me standing by the truck or something....This was not a wise thing to do....


Never would enter my mind either.. I don't even look at others peoples dogs that could get out since the windows are down or jump out of the back of the truck.. they where they suppose to be doing what they suppose to do, and would not want to be the cause of them learning to anything then what they suppose to be doing.. I just ignore them even if they all wagging away wanting to get your attention.. Just think it's the right thing to do for others peoples dogs.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

PatriciafromCO said:


> Never would enter my mind either.. I don't even look at others peoples dogs that could get out since the windows are down or jump out of the back of the truck.. they where they suppose to be doing what they suppose to do, and would not want to be the cause of them learning to anything then what they suppose to be doing.. I just ignore them even if they all wagging away wanting to get your attention.. Just think it's the right thing to do for others peoples dogs.


Geeze, there's always somebody jumpin on with a common sense reply.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

CptJack said:


> There are many areas in the country (I don't believe Texas is one of them) where even if a burglar breaks into a home and gets bitten, you can still end up with your dog in deep trouble.


No Texas has strong castle laws where if someone forcibly breaks into your home/ or (I believe) car or tries to harm you & your dog bites them in defense of home/car/you then the law sees is as no different then say ... If you stabbed or shot that person.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

CptJack said:


> There are many areas in the country (I don't believe Texas is one of them) where even if a burglar breaks into a home and gets bitten, you can still end up with your dog in deep trouble.


I never understand laws like that.

My dog is protecting our home and property from an intruder. Yet, the dog is considered to have done something wrong. 

Humans and their laws.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

It appears that with guns or dogs, protecting one's person or home anymore is a bad thing. But I would still rather face 12 jurors than 6 pallbearers. We live in a rural area and calling 911 does not help much because Deputy could be on far side of the county which could be 30 minutes wait or longer.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

dogdragoness said:


> No Texas has strong castle laws where if someone forcibly breaks into your home/ or (I believe) car or tries to harm you & your dog bites them in defense of home/car/you then the law sees is as no different then say ... If you stabbed or shot that person.


Just remember, if your dog bites an intruder, make sure you drag the intruder back into the house and shoot him in the front (not the back), so you can plea self-defense ... might not hurt to place a kitchen knife in his hand afterwards.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

hanksimon said:


> Just remember, if your dog bites an intruder, make sure you drag the intruder back into the house and shoot him in the front (not the back), so you can plea self-defense ... might not hurt to place a kitchen knife in his hand afterwards.


Yeah ... Lol ill make sure to pick the knife up with a hanky or something so I donts gets my prints on it lol.

We live in a VERY rural area & like wvasko there is NO police here


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## spotted nikes (Feb 7, 2008)

sheep said:


> Hmm but if PTS would be considered right after the first bite/snap on your own children no matter the circumstances, then wouldn't it be better to just not have dogs at all while you have young children at home? After all, there's no 100% safety when we bring a live being with teeth home, and PTS it for not being able to deal with it or is too afraid of risks doesn't really make it safe (there's always the possibility of the 1st bite).


I agree.
Too many people think that all dogs want to be hugged/kissed/woken up by kids or strangers and that the dog should never snap. Personally, if you aren't willing to accept that dogs have teeth and can bite in the above situations or in some others on occasion, and be willing to work with the dog then you shouldn't own a dog.


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## xxxxdogdragoness (Jul 22, 2010)

Example: I clipped Yumi today & her hair was so thick that I had to use my A 5 clippers ... The blades pull a little, I tried to be as gentle as I could but I know I was pulling her hair. Yumi, for ally a semi feral dog could've bit me, many many times over during the hour or so it took to finish her. But she didn't 

It took years (she is 7 now) to get her like that (she sheds horribly in summer constantly & her coat looks horrible all the time no matter he much she is brushed I guess it's a flashing of the mixed DNA lol). 

What I am trying to say is ... In the wrong hands the situation I described could have been much much worse, but I remained calm, so ... So did she.


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