# Misty's Puppies!



## Misty2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Her puppies moving in her belly a few days before Birth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7tKlfB0FIU&feature=channel_video_title

And here are some pictures. I will try to upload her giving birth to her first pup later on, I'll post it.

She had 9 pups, 2 males 7 females  , All look healthy and none we still born. This was her first litter.

A few hours after the Birth.



























The father, mason, watching over from a distance.




































Today we got rid of the blanket, got a bottom half of a dog house, and now they are clean and happy with mommy, will get updated pictures later today. :clap2:


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

1.) Why is this dog having puppies? did you get her pregnant on purpose? It looks like Mason is the Father? 

2.) First litter????? And the reason for the first is _________? and the Reason for any other litters is _______________???

Maybe I missed something????


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## eeloheel (Dec 28, 2010)

I'm concerned. Did you adopt these dogs when she was already pregnant? Was this an accidental litter? It's very difficult to find good homes for mixed breed puppies. Most people would rather adopt from a breeder or a shelter. Are you keeping all these dogs? Do you have homes lined up?


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Considering she's been posting pics of Misty and Mason for over about a year, I'm guessing that this dog was not adopted pregnant.

Maybe an accidental litter? 

These accidents can be prevented pretty easily...........

snip snip.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Yay Puppies.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

Elana55 said:


> Yay Puppies.


Wait so is the yay puppies thing ALWAYS sarcastic?

I think someone yay puppied my puppy 
But he's a rescue *Lufs him*


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## eeloheel (Dec 28, 2010)

If you want to experience the miracle of birth or want to try your hand at raising puppies, foster a pregnant mother from a rescue or shelter. They're constantly looking for people willing to take on the commitment, and you're saving a mothers life, not to mention however many puppies she produces. There is such a massive overpopulation problem right now that many people don't even approve of legitimate breeders anymore. If you are hoping for someone to congratulate you on having a litter of puppies, I'm afraid that won't happen here. We're a group of people interested in the welfare of animals, and having a litter of puppies from two mixed breed dogs is about as far off the spectrum of welfare as you can get.


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## Misty2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Thanks for the more mature post. Yes this was accidental. We had Mason set up for snip snip, however a few days before the snip, misty went into heat before we knew what happened, she got pregnant, which im not saying im not to blame. I do apologize, however we do have many homes for these pups, people we know. We are going to take responsibility for them. If the owners find out they don't want them, return them to us before anywhere else. We are going to inspect all those who want the pups, so we know they are going into good homes.

We will also encourage fixing all the pups and if they don't agree, then we will find the person who will. We will make sure, we have a lot of free clinics to where the fix animals.

I know this is not the best thing in the world for the mixes to have puppies, but the replies are very sad to see. I understand everything and where everyone is going, how about a little questions before insulting and attacking? Am i on a forum with adults? Know the story before going crazy on someone who don't even know. Every single one of your dogs you guys own, were puppies, born from pures or born from mixes. I'm not thrilled about this as much as the next person, but I welcome these babies into the world and will make sure they all find loving homes and get fixed.

Anymore questions or concerns you guys can ask. But seriously, leave the insulting out of this. This is not about the blame game, I have it under control, even though surprised. This won't happen again and I'm very sad to see the response of some of you.


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## 123fraggle (Feb 20, 2009)

I guess no one asked questions because you said this was her "first" litter, implying that there may be a "second". Glad to hear that you are looking after the puppies. I'm sure Mr Mason is now duely snipped since there would be reason to wait for puppies to have this procedure done. Good luck to you and all your little furballs, they are cute for what it's worth.


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## Elana55 (Jan 7, 2008)

Glad to hear this too. I did ask questions.



> 1.) Why is this dog having puppies? did you get her pregnant on purpose? It looks like Mason is the Father?
> 
> 2.) First litter????? And the reason for the first is _________? and the Reason for any other litters is _______________???
> 
> Maybe I missed something????


However, since you knew they tied, why not spay when the bitch comes out of heat? Save a lot of money, time etc. etc.

They are here now but....


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## TStafford (Dec 23, 2009)

I was just wondering why Misty was not alreayd spayed. Its looks like you have had her long enough to have alredy had it done. I'm not attacking, just asking.


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## GypsyJazmine (Nov 27, 2009)

That's too bad.


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## Misty2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

TStafford said:


> I was just wondering why Misty was not alreayd spayed. Its looks like you have had her long enough to have alredy had it done. I'm not attacking, just asking.


No problem, I understand the question. :wave: We had Misty first. We read all the pros and cons of spaying. We never thought of getting another dog and a male at that. We were very worried about spaying here, if her behavior would change, something bad went wrong, ect. And thinking we would never get another dog, we decided not too.

When we got Mason we wanted to fix him asap, however like many people are we had forgot to, i was away in basic training most of his up bringing. So when i came back we decided to get it done as quickly as possible. However he had gotten her before we did. Now he is fixed, too late but now when she goes into it again, we will be safe.

And like I mentioned, we will make sure all the owners of the pups get them spayed or neutered.


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## lisak_87 (Mar 23, 2011)

you forgot to?

I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound mean or anything...and obviously puppies are adorable and I hope they find wonderful homes...

but you forgot to neuter your dog knowing you had an unspayed female in the house?

And where was your sig.other who must've been with said unfixed dog?

How does one forget to neuter a dog...


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Count your blessings that nothing went wrong with the whelping, but your not out of the woods yet. There is still plenty of stuff to worry about in the next 3 weeks. Do not expect to get much sleep as somebody needs to be in the room these puppies are in. They are in a temperature controlled room I hope? Do you have pig rails in the whelping box she is in? Pig rails help to keep mom from sqaushing puppies it gives them a safe place to squirm under. 

It concerns me that you are allowing the male near the puppies. That can really stress mom out and cause her to harm her puppies, harm herself, and/or harm him. The father has no stake in this other than his sperm. I would not let any other dog near those puppies or the mom. 

Congrats on the puppies, let this be a life lesson to you, and let's hope the luck you have had will continue.


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

Misty2010 said:


> Now he is fixed, too late but now when she goes into it again, we will be safe.


So are you still not planning on getting her spayed?


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## Misty2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Fuzzy Pants said:


> So are you still not planning on getting her spayed?


We are planning, but we are still thinking if we want to. We know the pros and cons of it and with Mason being fixed, we have sometime to think if we still want to. It helps avoid cancer and other problems, and stops the bleeding, but also causing behavior changes, maybe aggression, ect. 

Do you have a good list of pros on and cons? I read the pros and cons in Victoria's book, have the perfect pet.



ChaosIsAWeim said:


> Count your blessings that nothing went wrong with the whelping, but your not out of the woods yet. There is still plenty of stuff to worry about in the next 3 weeks. Do not expect to get much sleep as somebody needs to be in the room these puppies are in. They are in a temperature controlled room I hope? Do you have pig rails in the whelping box she is in? Pig rails help to keep mom from sqaushing puppies it gives them a safe place to squirm under.
> 
> It concerns me that you are allowing the male near the puppies. That can really stress mom out and cause her to harm her puppies, harm herself, and/or harm him. The father has no stake in this other than his sperm. I would not let any other dog near those puppies or the mom.
> 
> Congrats on the puppies, let this be a life lesson to you, and let's hope the luck you have had will continue.



Thanks for the support and information. I've been a book and internet worm since we noticed her pregnancy. We have it all under control. If there is something else, we also have a lot of vets. We took her to one a few days ago, got her temperature and a checkup.


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## Fuzzy Pants (Jul 31, 2010)

Misty2010 said:


> We are planning, but we are still thinking if we want to. We know the pros and cons of it and with Mason being fixed, we have sometime to think if we still want to. It helps avoid cancer and other problems, and stops the bleeding, but also causing behavior changes, maybe aggression, ect.
> 
> Do you have a good list of pros on and cons? I read the pros and cons in Victoria's book, have the perfect pet.


Every pet my family has ever had came from a shelter and was speutered. From labs when I was little, to wonderful little mutts when I was a teenager and now I just recently got my new shih tzu shelter pup spayed. We've never experienced any behavior problems with any of our dogs other than my sister's dog that developed aggression as a result of a thyroid problem, not from neutering. There are far, far more pros to speutering than cons. With so many perfectly healthy animals being put to sleep in shelters across america there is just no sane reason to not speuter a companion animal.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Spaying doesn't cause any behavioral changes except for the floosy behavior they can have while in heat.


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Long-Term Health Risks and Benefits Associated with Spay / Neuter in Dogs

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf


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## Puptart (Jan 25, 2011)

TStafford said:


> I was just wondering why Misty was not alreayd spayed. Its looks like you have had her long enough to have alredy had it done. I'm not attacking, just asking.


I'm not trying to be a butt or anything... but many people on this forum tend to forget that spaying and neutering cost money.


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## Keechak (Aug 10, 2008)

Puptart said:


> I'm not trying to be a butt or anything... but many people on this forum tend to forget that spaying and neutering cost money.


what do you mean? I didn't think it needed to be said, everyone who gets a dog knows that spaying and neutering costs money don't they? The OP knows it costs money I'm sure. Are you saying that not wanting to spend money on a dogs care is a good thing? very confused...


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## Puptart (Jan 25, 2011)

Keechak said:


> what do you mean? I didn't think it needed to be said, everyone who gets a dog knows that spaying and neutering costs money don't they? The OP knows it costs money I'm sure. Are you saying that not wanting to spend money on a dogs care is a good thing? very confused...


Oh no no no no! That's not what I meant at all! Wanting to spay/neuter and being able to afford it are two different things. Personally I think you should have money tucked away for spay/neuter before you get your dog but with everybody this may not be the case.

I'm just saying that while someone wants to spay/neuter they don't have the funds to do so. It's one thing having the money and just being stingey about spaying/neutering because of the cost but another to not have the money period.


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## Shaina (Oct 28, 2007)

Puptart said:


> Oh no no no no! That's not what I meant at all! Wanting to spay/neuter and being able to afford it are two different things. Personally I think you should have money tucked away for spay/neuter before you get your dog but with everybody this may not be the case.
> 
> I'm just saying that while someone wants to spay/neuter they don't have the funds to do so. It's one thing having the money and just being stingey about spaying/neutering because of the cost but another to not have the money period.


Except the OP stated that (1) there were free clinics in their area for s/n since apparently that is how the pups may be s/n'd in their new homes and (2) that they didn't because they forgot.


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## flowergarden (Apr 30, 2011)

I am new to this forum. And finding out there are touchy issues and strong opinions. We are all concerned about unwanted puppies and dogs. From what I have read, one of the most rewarding perks of spaying is it lengthens the female's life. What better reason is that. You can have your beloved pet longer. I also thought my beautiful, good natured puppy would make other beautiful puppies and what stop me in my tracks was thinking of all the dogs and puppies put down every year. Millions. Please get her fixed. 
You were just so excited about puppies and you wanted to share them with us. They are beautiful puppies. I am happy you are taking the next step to insure this won't happen again and are taking responsibility for nine lives. Wishing you all the best for you and your puppies.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Misty2010 said:


> We are planning, but we are still thinking if we want to. We know the pros and cons of it and with Mason being fixed, we have sometime to think if we still want to. It helps avoid cancer and other problems, and stops the bleeding, but also causing behavior changes, maybe aggression, ect.


You have been grossly misinformed. Overwhelmingly, the spay/neuter procedure does not change a dog's personality at all. Not only does speutering not cause aggression, it has been known in some cases to actually _decrease _it. Please get your girl fixed. Her puppies are adorable and I appreciate that you are going to take responsibility for finding great homes for them, but an intact female should not live with someone who "forgets" to watch her.



Puptart said:


> Oh no no no no! That's not what I meant at all! Wanting to spay/neuter and being able to afford it are two different things. Personally I think you should have money tucked away for spay/neuter before you get your dog but with everybody this may not be the case.


Why not? If you know a dog needs to be fixed and you don't have the money to do so, then either get a dog that is already fixed or don't get a dog. Problem solved.


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Just like there are benefits to having your male neutered, there are health benefits for having your girl spayed. Here's an excerpt:

The main benefits of neutering in female dogs : 
1. Eliminates the possibility of uterine or ovarian cancer and also greatly reduces the incidence of breast cancer, especially if your dog is neutered before her first heat. 
2. No chance of neighborhood male dogs fronting up at your doorstep when she does come into heat 
3. No mess - female dogs will spot blood during their heat - this could last up to 3 weeks. 
4. No false pregnancies or infection of the uterus (pyometra) which can be life threatening. 
5. Reduced incidence of mammary, ovarian and uterine tumors

Copied from here:
http://www.ask-the-vet.com/dogs/19/Health-benefits-of-neutering-dogs.html


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## Puptart (Jan 25, 2011)

Shaina said:


> Except the OP stated that (1) there were free clinics in their area for s/n since apparently that is how the pups may be s/n'd in their new homes and (2) that they didn't because they forgot.


I'm just stating that people on this forum tend to think "ohmygod you didnt do this right away your a horrible person" not everyone, not you, just some people. Anyways it wasnt aimed to the OP. I was just stating a fact.

im not saying this is how i feel, im just saying that this is what may be the case with some people. I'm all for spaying or neutering your pet as soon as possible.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

Puptart I agree - 

Immediately everyone wanted to know all of the details and jumped all over the OP. Ok it was an accident... accidents happen... I am at the same point wondering whether or not I will spay Cosette, because I'd like to show her (and I'll find out the end of this month if the minimal blaze will be a problem). And spaying costs upwards $500 in my area at least, so it's not like I decide one day to do it, I need to save for it. Again, one of our dogs has had breast cancer and I wouldn't want Cosette to go through that if we could avoid it, so spaying might be the best option for us. And once it is done, it is a life decision for her. I'm glad the OP is weighing all of the pros and cons. Spaying/Neutering is a permanent decision, and a personal one. 

And if a non-purebred has puppies, so what? The OP is the one taking care of them, finding homes for them, they aren't adding to the shelter problem because people buying puppies from people rather than shelters were going to do it anyway. And the male dog is being neutered, so more accidental litters won't happen as long as the OP is smart about keeping her female indoors when she's in heat and not around intact males.

I just see this as an overpopulation vs. personal liberty issue. It's all about whether you care more about the overpopulation of dogs than the rights of owners to make the choice to spay/neuter/have puppies. No one is right or wrong. It's whatever you believe. Unless it becomes law


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

cynster said:


> And if a non-purebred has puppies, so what? The OP is the one taking care of them, finding homes for them, they aren't adding to the shelter problem because people buying puppies from people rather than shelters were going to do it anyway


Really? 'So what'? I guess we should all have such a laid back attitude when people toss dogs together and have puppies.. what's the saying, 'YAY puppies!'?

Secondly - how do you know these puppies will not end up in shelters? How do you know the puppies will all end up spayed and neutered? Because the OP said so? Please - even people buying from reputable breeders will break their contracts at times - who says these people won't as well? What if those puppies have an 'oops' litter down the line? Is it still a 'So What' attitude?


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

Loki Love said:


> Really? 'So what'? I guess we should all have such a laid back attitude when people toss dogs together and have puppies.. what's the saying, 'YAY puppies!'?
> 
> Secondly - how do you know these puppies will not end up in shelters? How do you know the puppies will all end up spayed and neutered? Because the OP said so? Please - even people buying from reputable breeders will break their contracts at times - who says these people won't as well? What if those puppies have an 'oops' litter down the line? Is it still a 'So What' attitude?


 It could happen - it doesn't mean it will. And they could have an oops litter too. If you aren't planning on taking care of the puppies or finding homes for them - don't have puppies. If you aren't responsible enough with your intact pet to ensure they don't breed, then spaying is the best option. We have had an intact female with a male before, and we have never had accidental litters. When we have decided to breed, we did, and the puppies had contracts that if the owner couldn't take care of the puppy for any reason, we would take them back. Cosette came on a contract like that too - if I couldn't take care of her for any reason her breeder would be more than happy to take her in (although that won't happen). If the puppy buyer is truly bull headed enough to take their dog to a shelter when they have a contract like that, it would have happened anyway with any dog. And you can't assume they wouldn't have bought some other puppy instead.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

We have intact dogs. I've never felt on this forum that I've been berated about it. It's all about responsible ownership and handling. I think most people are fine if you handle your intact dogs responsibly. It is not too terribly difficult. I actually just went through this with Ada and Bernard. Two doors between the two at ALL times. No ifs ands or buts. If you do that... no unwanted puppies.

If you can't do that and be that responsible with a bitch in heat, then SPAY her! When weighing if you should spay or neuter a dog, that should be your first question there- can I be responsible and keep my intact bitch from getting pregnant? If not, it is best to spay.

To the OP, actually there's definitely more benefits to spaying a bitch than there are to neutering a male. Pyo is a main concern. Even breeders I know typically spay their bitches once they're done breeding them. The hassle, mess, chance of pyo, etc all make for a compelling case towards spaying non breeding bitches imo.

All that said, I'm very glad the whelping went smoothly and that some pups already have homes. I definitely want to see pictures as they mature, it's an interesting combination. 



> I am at the same point wondering whether or not I will spay Cosette, because I'd like to show her (and I'll find out the end of this month if the minimal blaze will be a problem).


The blaze shouldn't be, however lack of coat and fringe might. I may actually post my answer to this on the papillon thread as to not hijack here.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> The blaze shouldn't be, however lack of coat and fringe might. I may actually post my answer to this on the papillon thread as to not hijack here.


Yeah I think I've asked it before somewhere else- wasn't looking for someone to answer me here, just giving an example, but thanks for tip 


EDIT- I read that wrong LOL - sure I'll check there later if you do


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## Misty2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Got some good news so far. Since there is so many, we have decided to find homes now instead of later. This gives us enough time to find out about such persons and gives them time to get things prepared and financial stuff ready too.

I've got two people, one has picked one and the other is going to reply later. Here is what the person, who does have one on hold, said.



> That would be great. We currently have 2 min. Schnanuzer. We have a 8 year old boy and he really wants to dog that is a little bigger and that will play. The others will but they are more of laps dog.lol She would be keep inside. We have a fennced in yard that she would be able to play in. I would def. get her spayed because I dont want pupps.


:wave:


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

It's good you're finding homes for them now, so you can fully screen the potential owners. But make sure the pups don't leave the litter until they're AT LEAST 8 weeks old, even if their mama is snapping at them or you don't see them nursing or whatever. They learn a lot of dog lessons from their mother and littermates those last few weeks.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

Misty2010 said:


> Got some good news so far. Since there is so many, we have decided to find homes now instead of later. This gives us enough time to find out about such persons and gives them time to get things prepared and financial stuff ready too.
> 
> I've got two people, one has picked one and the other is going to reply later. Here is what the person, who does have one on hold, said.
> 
> ...


Ask all potential homes for a vet reference (whomever they take their dogs to, can be multiple vets) and then call the vet and see if they are up to date on their shots (especially rabies!), if they use heartworm prevention and if their current or past animals have been spayed/neutered. If they are not up to date, you need to ask why. Is it because they just don't want to spend the money to take the dogs to get their shots? Is it because their dog is very old and in failing health that they fear a vaccine may cause harm? Is it because they simply forgot (this would be plausible within a few months.. if it's more than a year don't buy it). Rabies is required by law, so they really shouldn't be skimping on that. If they do not use heartworm prevention, do they at least test for heartworm? If their current/past animals were not spay and neutered, why? Be extra leery if they have an intact animal of the opposite sex they would like.

You should also do a background check on everyone 18+ in the house to check for any anger-related issues (assault?) that may pre-dispose them to animal abuse. ETA: Where are you located (state?) I may be able to find one for you to use.

People are scum. They will lie to you and tell you ANYTHING until they have what they want. I work at the Humane Society and go through this on a daily basis, finding homes for our animals there. People ALWAYS try to 'trick' us. They tell us their animals are up to date or S/N and then don't give us a vet reference? I don't think so. People that have nothing to hide have nothing to hide. DO NOT take their word for it, any of it. And be sure to make a contract stating you WILL ALWAYS for whatever reason take the dogs back. Even the most 'committed' sounding people sometimes decide that they can't handle it.


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## bfoster (Feb 9, 2009)

You have gotten enough lectures and I think you know what you need to do---so let me just say that the puppies are beautiful and Misty looks like she is a very good mother. I am sure you will take good care of them and find them responsible homes. Enjoy your time with them. 
The picture of Mason peeking at them was cute.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Misty2010 said:


> Thanks for the more mature post. Yes this was accidental. We had Mason set up for snip snip, however a few days before the snip, misty went into heat before we knew what happened, she got pregnant, which im not saying im not to blame.
> Anymore questions or concerns you guys can ask. But seriously, leave the insulting out of this. This is not about the blame game, I have it under control, even though surprised. This won't happen again and I'm very sad to see the response of some of you.


ok, you had Mason set up for "snip, snip" and "Misty went into heat"......you had AT LEAST 1 wk b/4 breeding time to know she was in heat....WHY didn't you keep them separated?......then it wouldn't have happened at all (i know, i had an unaltered GR here for 12 hrs a day when my female was in heat.....no "ooops" puppies from them)


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

Binkalette said:


> You should also do a background check on everyone 18+ in the house to check for any anger-related issues (assault?) that may pre-dispose them to animal abuse. ETA: Where are you located (state?) I may be able to find one for you to use.


omg xD if I was buying a puppy from someone, I'd rather they just met me than do a background check on me! Holy cow. I don't have anything to hide, but that's kind of personal. If a company is doing it, that's one thing, but I don't think some random stranger I'm buying a dog from has any business doing a background check on me  I've never done a background check on anyone - so admittedly I don't know how detailed they are, but wouldn't it be better to just meet the person? I'm sure hot tempered immature people are easier to spot in person than in a background check.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Misty2010 said:


> We are planning, but we are still thinking if we want to. We know the pros and cons of it and with Mason being fixed, we have sometime to think if we still want to. It helps avoid cancer and other problems, and stops the bleeding, but also causing behavior changes, maybe aggression, ect.


no, it does NOT cause behavior changes (unless it's more relaxed personality)......i just had my 7 yr old bitch spayed, and all but 4 of my girls have been spayed after 18 mo in the past....never an issue w/ anything.....


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## Pareeeee (Sep 29, 2009)

I really hate it when people resort to name calling and jump to conclusions before hearing the full/real story. 
Shame on the ones who acted so immaturely. I see a lot of this over the many, many forums I am member of. Frankly, I'm sick of it.

Congrats on the cute puppies, even though they are accidents!

PS: Kudos to those of you that were helpful and mature towards the OP! What's done is done and she needs help and advice now on caring for a litter of little ones!


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

I'm still wondering how someone can forget to spueter....

Cute pups, regardless! I want "growing up" pics, btw.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

cynster said:


> omg xD if I was buying a puppy from someone, I'd rather they just met me than do a background check on me! Holy cow. I don't have anything to hide, but that's kind of personal. If a company is doing it, that's one thing, but I don't think some random stranger I'm buying a dog from has any business doing a background check on me  I've never done a background check on anyone - so admittedly I don't know how detailed they are, but wouldn't it be better to just meet the person? I'm sure hot tempered immature people are easier to spot in person than in a background check.


We do it to everyone that applies for an animal at the Humane Society. People are very deceiving. I used to trust people before working there, now I know half of the human race is lying scum. We had a really sweet Latino lady apply for a puppy a few months ago, and we were all set to give it to her except for the background check. When I punched her in it came up with 18 different counts of assault and 'brawling' charges. It became very clear that she was not fit to own a goldfish when we told her her application was denied. She totally flipped out and after talking to some people that know her we were lucky she didn't come down and beat the crap out of us. Apparently she is shackled both hands and feet whenever she is in court. They know her well there. But we never would have known if it weren't for the background check.

The background check doesn't show anything except criminal history. Speeding tickets..etc.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

I can understand it in shelters /companies - but not average people. I imagine you get a lot of crazies coming in. It's different when you only have a litter of puppies. You ask the right questions on the phone, then follow up with meeting them. After that, 9 times out of 10 they are normal people just wanting a dog. At least in our experience - although we usually had referrals - but we did ocassionally have a puppy or two leftover that we put an ad out for. You make sure to price the dog over $100 so they aren't being sold off to labs, and make sure to give a contract that the puppy can come back, no matter what, we didn't sell to families with small children because they were a small breed, or teens who weren't serious about owning a dog, and that about did it for us with phone questions. Then we met them, learned more about them in person, and if the puppy was right for them, we placed them. Usually a puppy would have 3 families visit before we placed it because JRTs really aren't for everyone, even though they are popular. At that point, I think it's unnecessary to go through a background check. But that's just my opinion. I think shelters definitely should because of the sheer quantity of people that request dogs.


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## Binkalette (Dec 16, 2008)

cynster said:


> I can understand it in shelters /companies - but not average people. I imagine you get a lot of crazies coming in. It's different when you only have a litter of puppies. You ask the right questions on the phone, then follow up with meeting them. After that, 9 times out of 10 they are normal people just wanting a dog. At least in our experience - although we usually had referrals - but we did ocassionally have a puppy or two leftover that we put an ad out for. You make sure to price the dog over $100 so they aren't being sold off to labs, and make sure to give a contract that the puppy can come back, no matter what, we didn't sell to families with small children because they were a small breed, or teens who weren't serious about owning a dog, and that about did it for us with phone questions. Then we met them, learned more about them in person, and if the puppy was right for them, we placed them. Usually a puppy would have 3 families visit before we placed it because JRTs really aren't for everyone, even though they are popular. At that point, I think it's unnecessary to go through a background check. But that's just my opinion. I think shelters definitely should because of the sheer quantity of people that request dogs.


I can understand that. I guess I'm just warped. I would never, ever in my wildest dreams personally place a dog with out doing a background check and speaking with their vet (if they have/have had animals) and a few personal references.


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## CricketLoops (Apr 18, 2011)

Pareeeee said:


> I really hate it when people resort to name calling and jump to conclusions before hearing the full/real story.
> Shame on the ones who acted so immaturely. I see a lot of this over the many, many forums I am member of. Frankly, I'm sick of it.
> 
> PS: Kudos to those of you that were helpful and mature towards the OP! What's done is done and she needs help and advice now on caring for a litter of little ones!


See, I disagree with this. I agree that the name calling served(s) no purpose other than for people to blow off some steam and channel their anger about oops litters, but it sort of seems like the OP was not expecting to get such a harsh reaction from the members of this forum. Correct me if I'm wrong, OP, but if I had bred an oops litter, was aware of how wrong it was, but still wanted to share pictures of the new puppies, I would post some sort of disclaimer or back story in my post. Like “I know this isn’t a good thing – here are the circumstances in which it happened, here are the steps I’ve taken to prevent the problem from ever happening again, and here’s what I’m doing to take responsibility for my irresponsibility” etc. 

Do you “owe” the forum an explanation for what happened? Nope! But to not provide one and expect anything less than condemnation and outrage (especially after knowing how many people on this forum are involved with rescues and shelters) is probably not very realistic. 

I also think people forget how populated this forum is. I don’t post very much (I think this is my third post?) and I’m sure there are lots of people like me. Right now there are 1000 people looking at the forum, and it’s 5 am (where I am). 

I guess I’m imagining a situation where one of these 1000 people (maybe even a kid or teen, who might be a lot more open to learning) clicks on dog pictures (because “Yay! Dog pictures!!!”) and then clicks on this thread (because “Yay!!! Puppiesss!!”) and then immediately sees the first several posts. “?????” this person thinks, “Why do people hate PUPPIESSSS?? I love puppies” and so maybe they google “mixed breed puppies.” Or maybe they google “pet overpopulation.” Or maybe they don’t google at all and ask a friend/acquaintance that’s into dogs or volunteers at a shelter to alleviate their confusion. 

In this case, a learning situation has been created. A person has the opportunity to learn about responsible breeding ethics (or, as this thread has evolved, about responsible speutering and what kind of questions a person should expect to be asked by a breeder who really cares about the welfare of their puppies). 

I think this is a good thing. I think the chance for this to happen far outweighs the need to not “name call and jump to conclusions.” That stuff was definitely not helpful to the OP, but maybe it will be helpful to someone else. Personally, I wouldn’t call anyone on this forum an “idjit” (please don’t quote me on this, I reserve the right to change my mind) but I think it’s okay that there are people who are passionate enough about irresponsible breeding to do something like that. I definitely think it’s okay that there are people on this forum who want to be judgmental about this issue. 

With that being said, I also think it’s important to have this forum be a place that the OP is not afraid to come to to ask questions about the new puppies. Puppy raising is HARD (and really, really draining). In my opinion, if you don’t cry at least once you’re probably not doing it right (or you have a lot of experience and know exactly what to expect, I suppose). As this is the OP’s first time raising a litter of pups, and the OP probably does not have many experienced litter-raising friends (forgive me if I’m assuming wrong), this is maybe the only place (or at least one of the best places) the OP can go to get advice when the puppy diarrhea starts hitting the fan.


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## bfoster (Feb 9, 2009)

Everyone knows it was an oops litter. Hopefully she will learn from this and prevent it from happening again.
The puppies are here. I think it is time to cut her a little slack and offer any help she needs. 
She has not posted in awhile and is probably afraid to ask questions. I am sure that she was not expecting the attack she received when she posted the pictures.
Its time to be helpful now.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

bfoster said:


> Everyone knows it was an oops litter. Hopefully she will learn from this and prevent it from happening again.
> The puppies are here. I think it is time to cut her a little slack and offer any help she needs.
> She has not posted in awhile and is probably afraid to ask questions. I am sure that she was not expecting the attack she received when she posted the pictures.
> Its time to be helpful now.


Well said.


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## ChaosIsAWeim (Feb 12, 2011)

Chances are she has not posted because she is hopefully really busy with those puppies. I totally agree, I see no point in belittling someone who already knows they made a mistake and the puppies are already here. Sure this is a learning experience and I hope people learn from this.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm seeing a lot of people who think spay/neuter is a wonderful thing with no negative side effects. This just isn't true. There are a number of studies that have shown there are side effects to spaying and neutering. If there weren't, I would think they would recommend that all humans be spayed/neutered as soon as they were done having children.

I'm not anti-spay/neuter, if you can't keep your dogs from having accidental breedings, IMO it's the besth choice. But people should go into it full informed of the pros and cons.

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html
http://www.caninesports.com/SNBehaviorBoneDataSnapShot.pdf
http://www.mmilani.com/commentary-200509.html
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

There are also higher rates of incontinence in spayed females, which can sometimes be effectively treated with medications, but not always.

From a more personal angle I have altered a couple of my dogs. 1 was spayed around 5 years old, and it had a major impact in her energy level and stamina. She went from being able to go on 3-4 hour trial rides with the horses without a problem, to be exhausted after 1-1.5 hours. I also noticed a drop in her stamina while working, and ultimately we had to stop competing in a couple venues because of it.

I neutered one of my males at around 3, and almost immediately after neutering he began to develope seperation and aggression issues. At one point they became bad enough the vet and I were considering euthanizing him as he was doing a lot of damage to himself physically, but he was also unpredictable with the family. We were able to get things under control, he never returned to his old self 100% but we got him back about 80% with some meds, training, etc. At least he was no longer injuring himself, or randomly lashing out.

On the flip side I did spay my son's dog, at his request, because he didn't like dealing with the heat cycles, and haven't noticed any negative side effects. She has always been just a pet though, so any changes such as stamina or anything else performance related we wouldn't have noticed.

These may be more extreme examples, but I won't spay or neuter another dog unless there is a compelling medical reason for it, just based on my personal experienced.

To the OP, the pups are here, good luck with them and I hope you can find responsible homes for each of them. It sounds like some of your homes are already picking based on color?? Don't know what else they would be picking on at just a couple days old. Don't let them do that, the pups should be placed according to personality and "mental fit" with the homes, not just their color or size. Or you may end up sending that really pretty one who is also nervous and reactive to a home with small children. I'm glad to hear you alread altered one of the parents, to prevent any future accidental litters.


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## Pareeeee (Sep 29, 2009)

bfoster said:


> Everyone knows it was an oops litter. Hopefully she will learn from this and prevent it from happening again.
> The puppies are here. I think it is time to cut her a little slack and offer any help she needs.
> She has not posted in awhile and is probably afraid to ask questions. I am sure that she was not expecting the attack she received when she posted the pictures.
> Its time to be helpful now.


Exactly...


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## Misty2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

bfoster said:


> Everyone knows it was an oops litter. Hopefully she will learn from this and prevent it from happening again.
> The puppies are here. I think it is time to cut her a little slack and offer any help she needs.
> She has not posted in awhile and is probably afraid to ask questions. I am sure that she was not expecting the attack she received when she posted the pictures.
> Its time to be helpful now.


Thanks for that. I understand that I forgot to write the story with it, just with the excitement and stress of the puppies. I have been busy with them and am very excited. They are doing well and I sure will update pictures of them and owners to be as well.

So far four are spoken for, three females and one male. The male is my mothers and the other three are people in my area. all have agreed to spay/neuter. Which I do not believe them of course so I'm keeping in touch with them and to make sure I see proof from the vet of the fixing.

Here are the pups that are spoken for minus one, because the lady is still deciding which black one she wants.
First one that was spoken for.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/misty242010/004-5.jpg

Second one.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/misty242010/010-7.jpg
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/misty242010/011-8.jpg

third one, depending on which they want.
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/misty242010/003-8.jpg

puppy a
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/misty242010/004-6.jpg

puppy b
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab235/misty242010/005-9.jpg

And the last one no picture yet, will get more of the rest of them. I do understand the reaction of some people and it has made me stronger and real sorry. Thanks all.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Misty2010 said:


> Here are the pups that are spoken for minus one, because the lady is still deciding which black one she wants.


Sounds like things are going well. I'm glad to hear your pups are in demand!

Be careful about placing these pups based on color, though. I totally understand that people want their animals to look a certain way, but your puppies will have a much better chance of living happily every after in the homes they go to if you match them based on their personalities. Certain homes require certain dogs and it's in your pups' best interest to place them where they fit, regardless of their colors.


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## Misty2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

FilleBelle said:


> Sounds like things are going well. I'm glad to hear your pups are in demand!
> 
> Be careful about placing these pups based on color, though. I totally understand that people want their animals to look a certain way, but your puppies will have a much better chance of living happily every after in the homes they go to if you match them based on their personalities. Certain homes require certain dogs and it's in your pups' best interest to place them where they fit, regardless of their colors.


So true. I'll let them know that they are welcome throughout the growth to see each personaility before making a desicion.


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## bfoster (Feb 9, 2009)

So cute!!! They certainly favor their father don't they?!
Thanks for posting the pictures


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## Sibe (Nov 21, 2010)

Misty2010 said:


> So true. I'll let them know that they are welcome throughout the growth to see each personaility before making a desicion.


Maybe invite them over when the pups are about 6 weeks old. By then you can tell the puppies' personalities pretty well. You want to avoid having too many people over and handling them when they are itty bitty, there all kinds of germs on people.


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

Misty2010 said:


> ........ so I'm keeping in touch with them and to make sure I see proof from the vet of the fixing.



you could also insure this by having them have the s/n paid in full b/4 they take the pup home.....they have 8 wks, i'm sure they can have that arranged/paid for in that amount of time.....this is what i am requiring for my little "rescue" Chi...not asking anything for him but they have to prepay his neuter (that's if my vet thinks he should still be done at his age...maybe 10?)


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## luvntzus (Mar 16, 2007)

Nevermind, I shouldn't judge.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

I agree with being a little more understanding. When I was growing up, my purebred GSD had an accident litter with another purebred GSD We sold the puppies, all 8 of them went in a week, took very good care of them, and then got her spayed. Accidents happen, and to belittle someone because of a mistake is rather low...


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## Elida (May 6, 2010)

These puppies might have found homes, but what if because of these 9 pups, one puppy, just one, will be killed in a shelter? 

Accidents do happen, but they should not be encouraged IMHO.
At least people should not be coming here bragging about their new litter and how they found nice homes (homes stolen from the ones who need it desperately), because it really hurts some of us here.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

Puppies aren't the problem. Irresponsible people are. Homes aren't stolen - homes are found. Puppies being found nice homes are not being dropped off at shelters. In fact the opposite. Responsible breeders and accidental litters help keep puppy mills from growing. And true puppy mills that produce puppies based on demand and keep puppies in horrible conditions because there are so many are the reason there are too many dogs. Not accidental litters or breeders. Some people will never buy from a shelter because they feel they might get a dog with some behavioral problems and want to start fresh with a puppy. These people don't realize that petshop dogs are not starting fresh, but most of them do know that puppy mills are a bad place to get puppies and most pet shops get puppies from puppy mills. An alternative for these people is to search for breeders or in the newspaper.

If it hurts some of you here that an accidental litter of puppies found nice homes, realize there are other people with a different point of view - not trying to hurt you, but being themselves and being honest. And frankly not doing anything wrong. Instead, be proactive. If shelter dogs are not being adopted - figure out why. Find out how easy/hard it is to find a dog you would want to adopt - and think about how the shelter could improve its outreach and provide help if you can. Breeders and accidental litters find homes very quickly - Shelters could do it too.


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## Elida (May 6, 2010)

cynster said:


> Puppies aren't the problem. Irresponsible people are.
> ...


My point exactly.. But I find this whole thing a result of irresponsible behaviour, how come you don't? How can someone 'forget' to spay/neuter?




cynster said:


> Some people will never buy from a shelter because they feel they might get a dog with some behavioral problems and want to start fresh with a puppy


You don't 'buy' from a shelter, you adopt from them
Plus, don't know about your area, but here, there are puppies in the shelters too, no need to go to backyard breeders.



cynster said:


> If it hurts some of you here that an accidental litter of puppies found nice homes, realize there are other people with a different point of view - not trying to hurt you, but being themselves and being honest. And frankly not doing anything wrong. Instead, be proactive. If shelter dogs are not being adopted - figure out why. Find out how easy/hard it is to find a dog you would want to adopt - and think about how the shelter could improve its outreach and provide help if you can. Breeders and accidental litters find homes very quickly - Shelters could do it too. ...


I am not saying everyone has to adopt from a shelter or shelters are doing everything right. I don't even understand your point here.
And telling me to be proactive? Do you know me? 

The problem is overpopulation! Too many puppies, not enough homes. All of these, backyard breeders/irresponsible owners/puppy mills are the cause, all part of the problem. 




cynster said:


> Responsible breeders and accidental litters help keep puppy mills from growing.
> ...


I don't quite understand how you can use 'responsible breeders' and 'accidental litters' in the same sentense. 
We have to agree to disagree I guess.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Misty2010 said:


> No problem, I understand the question. :wave: We had Misty first. We read all the pros and cons of spaying. We never thought of getting another dog and a male at that. We were very worried about spaying here, if her behavior would change, something bad went wrong, ect. And thinking we would never get another dog, we decided not too.
> 
> When we got Mason we wanted to fix him asap, however like many people are we had forgot to, i was away in basic training most of his up bringing. So when i came back we decided to get it done as quickly as possible. However he had gotten her before we did. Now he is fixed, too late but now when she goes into it again, we will be safe.
> 
> And like I mentioned, we will make sure all the owners of the pups get them spayed or neutered.


I'd have to ask why you are unwilling to get Misty spayed. In reality, if you are looking at health risks/benefits, it makes more sense to spay the female. Then you don't have to deal with pyo, really close supervision twice a year, increased risk of mammary tumors, etc. For males, most of the cancers they are prone to if intact can be cured by neutering, and some of the nastier ones are more likely in neutered males. I have to think that if you weren't careful enough to prevent the first litter, there's always a risk you'll not be watching closely enough when she comes in season again. I'm glad you are looking for good homes for the pups here, but I think life would be easier for everyone if Misty and you didn't have to go through this twice a year (and surely you're not planning to intentionally breed her?)



Puptart said:


> I'm not trying to be a butt or anything... but many people on this forum tend to forget that spaying and neutering cost money.


So does having puppies. Especially if something goes wrong.



Elida said:


> My point exactly.. But I find this whole thing a result of irresponsible behaviour, how come you don't? How can someone 'forget' to spay/neuter?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, if you pay a shelter money for a pet, you are buying that pet. You "adopt" children. 

The problem is not only (or primarily) overpopulation as much as it is mis-distribution and lack of a real commitment on the part of many shelters to see dogs re-homed. In my part of the world, many of the shelters who add a great deal to the euthanasia statistics don't even adopt animals to the public. Other causes are lack of education to the public (creating dogs with behavior problems that people don't want to deal with) and the animals-are-disposable mindset of many people. Also an economy that leaves some people with few options.



luvntzus said:


> Just like there are benefits to having your male neutered, there are health benefits for having your girl spayed. Here's an excerpt:
> 
> The main benefits of neutering in female dogs :
> 
> 2. No chance of neighborhood male dogs fronting up at your doorstep when she does come into heat


Dogs jump fences, dig under fences, can actually breed THROUGH fences. So, a female in season cannot be safely allowed out for even a minute without supervision. I actually have one friend who came home from work to find her front door broken in. The neighbor Rottweiler had broken into her house - pretty much wrecked everything and bred her female GSD (who then got an unplanned spay)


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

Elida said:


> But I find this whole thing a result of irresponsible behaviour, how come you don't? How can someone 'forget' to spay/neuter
> You don't 'buy' from a shelter
> I don't even understand your point here.
> And telling me to be proactive? Do you know me?
> ...


I don't think getting your dog pregnant on accident is responsible. Finding homes for all of the puppies is, though. You do buy dogs from a shelter. Puppies from shelters may have behavioral issues from being in various situations, its not as fresh a start as a puppy with no history. I said instead of getting hurt by what people say on an internet forum, a better use of energy is to solve the problem. The problem really isn't overpopulation. It's the lack of commitment to keep a dog. Accidental litters and reputable breeders dont breed for profit or breed insane amounts of dogs.


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## Elida (May 6, 2010)

cynster said:


> I don't think getting your dog pregnant on accident is responsible. Finding homes for all of the puppies is, though. You do buy dogs from a shelter. Puppies from shelters may have behavioral issues from being in various situations, its not as fresh a start as a puppy with no history. I said instead of getting hurt by what people say on an internet forum, a better use of energy is to solve the problem. The problem really isn't overpopulation. It's the lack of commitment to keep a dog. Accidental litters and reputable breeders dont breed for profit or breed insane amounts of dogs.


And as I said, you do NOT know me and you don't know if I am doing something or not.

So we should all thank Misty for finding homes for the puppies? 

OK,
Well done Misty! 
Hope your next accidental litter will be as lucky as this one..

What is insane amount of dogs by the way?


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

Where did I say I know you and that you aren't doing anything? I simply said working on the problem is a better way to direct your energy than getting upset. You could already be doing that or you couldn't. I have no idea. But that doesn't change that working on the problem is better than feeling hurt when others post pictures of their puppies with no intention to hurt you. And it was this statement in question: *"At least people should not be coming here bragging about their new litter and how they found nice homes (homes stolen from the ones who need it desperately), because it really hurts some of us here."* We shouldn't have to censor ourselves to a portion of the forum's beliefs - and if they are truly hurt by it, it might make them feel better to solve some problems - if some of them are already doing it - awesome. 

I think Misty made a human mistake or was not aware how easily dogs can breed with each other and she thought she had more time. She's getting her dog neutered as planned (or probably already has him neutered) and if she doesn't want to spay her female that is perfectly fine. She just needs to keep her secure in her crate when not supervised when she's in heat. 

An insane amount of dogs is providing so much dog stock (because that's what it is at that point) that you can sell to pet shops. Alternatively, it's breeding your dog as soon as you can after the previous litter and doing this repeatedly. Real breeders breed only once (or maybe twice in some breeds) a year. Accidental litters don't usually happen twice in a row. Secondly - puppy mills don't care what happens to their dogs. They are more likely to abandon dogs that get too old to breed or destroy puppies that don't sell. That's a major problem. 
This is kind of how the breakdown of dog owners is here where I live: The biggest percentage actually gets a dog from the shelter, the second percentage usually finds a breeder or rehomed dog online, then lastly the local paper for litters in the area and visiting petshops.

The local breeders/accidental litters nearly always find homes for their dogs very quickly, within a few weeks. Overpopulation contributes, but the demand for dogs is also very high - high enough that people will pay a few hundred dollars for one, or thousands in some cases. The real problem in my opinion is that some shelters are incredibly ineffective in getting their dogs adopted. In this day when a good portion of people do their browsing and research online, there is no excuse for it. Shelters actually have such an upper hand because they can literally advertise anywhere since most people agree that the shelters are doing a good thing and will be willing to let them advertise. They just aren't taking advantage of this amazing opportunity where you can reach the individual easily and cheaply. Though the puppyfinder website for shelters is fantastic  I think it's a step in the right direction.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

I find it very hard to believe that this was not planned. In the frist place the minute the male smells that the female is coming in, he will be all over her, unless your dogs live outside and you are never around them, this was no accident. You would of had at least a week of seeing the male all over the female even before the hook up. If i only had a dollar for everytime i have heard the word "accident".


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## Pareeeee (Sep 29, 2009)

Ok this is sickening. This poor person, I feel badly for them because of the way they are being treated.
What business is it of ANY of you whether it was planned or not? THIS IS NOT A COURTROOM PEOPLE.
This person does not have to answer to any of you, you are not the law. People can give their opinion, but MY GOODNESS. Don't be so high and mighty as to think that you are the law and have the right to dictate to others how they should live their life. At least this person is being responsible enough as to find good homes for all of these puppies. What do you want? For her to put them all down?

I showed my husband this thread and he got so disgusted from just reading some of your hate-posts that he got angry and left the room. I don't blame him.

I actually am wondering if some of the people are not as old as they say they are. You guys are chewing the OP up and spitting them out. A bunch of man-eaters...

This is not a way to welcome newer members into the forum. She's gonna end up leaving and never coming back for fear of facing the DF police brutality squad...

What's done is done!!

Misty, I apologise for all of the people who are acting like this and who are calling you a liar etc. Please don't associate me with them. They don't know you from a hole in the ground so they have no right to accuse you of things they know nothing about.

PS: Some people's lives ARE busy enough that they can forget important things. Not everyone has a perfect memory, I know I don't. I've forgotten important appointments before and had to pay FINES because of it...Life is just plain busy sometimes and things get forgotten.

This is disgusting. I thought you guys were better than this. Please prove me wrong and show me that you are. 

I used to not say anything to defend people online but I have seen things like this happen time and time again and have finally gotten fed up with it. People hide behind the internet and say anything they want and be as insulting as possible just because they can. They tend to lose their sense of decency that they would at least pretend that they had if they actually met the person in 'real life'


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## Loki Love (May 23, 2010)

Pareeeee said:


> What business is it of ANY of you whether it was planned or not?


It became everyone's business the minute she posted. If she didn't want to hear the good, the bad and the ugly - she didn't have to say anything at all.


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## dantero (Feb 2, 2011)

workingdog said:


> I find it very hard to believe that this was not planned. In the frist place the minute the male smells that the female is coming in, he will be all over her, unless your dogs live outside and you are never around them, this was no accident. You would of had at least a week of seeing the male all over the female even before the hook up. If i only had a dollar for everytime i have heard the word "accident".


I'm not going to comment on whether this was an accident or not, the OP said it was so ...

But I will disagree with your statement about the male being all over the female. My males don't act like that. Maybe it's because I have mulitple females and they are used to females in heat, or maybe it's just the level of horomones. I like a male with enough to get the job (breeding) done when needed, but not so much that it effects his ability to work, since I also work my females and many times I will have a female in heat in the vehicle with my male, and he needs to still have a brain and do his job when it's his turn. But when I have a female in heat other than maybe a quick sniff as they walk past my males don't pay any real attention to her until she's actually ready to breed. They pay just as much attention to the spayed females. Heck, the neutered male in my agility class last night was paying more attention to my female who is just finishing up a heat cycle than my male at home is.

So it really can vary from male to male, and also can depend on the female, since I've seen males who wouldn't give a female in heat more than a glance until she's ready to breed, be very interested in another female from the very beginning of her cycle. Not to mention if someone hasn't owned an intact male and female at the same time they may not recognize the signals right away. They should, but that doesn't mean they will. I would hope though after this experience, if the OP doesn't spay Misty, that they will learn to recognize the signs and check for them on a regular basis.


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## Pareeeee (Sep 29, 2009)

I'm currently searching for a new dog forum to join. People make up a lot of excuses to behave badly. It's rediculous. Don't you _dare_ blame the OP for *your* bad behaviour just to make you feel better about yourselves...


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Pareeeee said:


> I'm currently searching for a new dog forum to join. People make up a lot of excuses to behave badly. It's rediculous. Don't you _dare_ blame the OP for *your* bad behaviour just to make you feel better about yourselves...


This is really amusing, coming from someone who in the past week or so started a thread about mutts vs. purebreds and a thread about docking, both of which are hot topics around here. Don't act like you're above the drama.


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## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

Pareeeee said:


> I'm currently searching for a new dog forum to join. People make up a lot of excuses to behave badly. It's rediculous. Don't you _dare_ blame the OP for *your* bad behaviour just to make you feel better about yourselves...


I think that you will run into the same thing on any other forum, not everyone is going to have your opinion...


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## tirluc (Aug 29, 2006)

besides the male paying attention or not to the female, she bleeds for at least 1 wk b/4 she's ready to stand for the male.......i'm not condemning the OP for what happened, but, given the circumstances, i don't believe it was purely accidental.....you have intact dogs of opposite sex--do the math......

Misty, i do commend you on finding homes for all the pups......have fun w/ them and enjoy all the antics of puppies (and the messes they make  )......please post more pics....we all love puppies here, no matter how they came into the world.....


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

Crantastic said:


> This is really amusing, coming from someone who in the past week or so started a thread about mutts vs. purebreds and a thread about docking, both of which are hot topics around here. Don't act like you're above the drama.


^^^THIS!! Btw, Pareeee, have fun in your "new dog forum" and know that it probably won't soon be forgotten that you threatened to leave, like most extremely dramatic people do. Don't expect to be welcomed back with open arms, either.


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## marsha=whitie (Dec 29, 2008)

kafkabeetle said:


> ^^^THIS!! Btw, Pareeee, have fun in your "new dog forum" and know that it probably won't soon be forgotten that you threatened to leave, like most extremely dramatic people do. Don't expect to be welcomed back with open arms, either.


Roflmao, kafkabeetle! I couldn't agree with you more. I'm a member on a super small dog forum, and its ALL about drama. If you don't agree with what everyone says there, you're bashed to hell and back. Good luck, Pareeee!


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

I also want to add that I think it's pretty ridiculous to get all holier than thou about how everyone in this thread should have been so nice and understanding to the OP _from the very start._ Since the OP gave no explanation of how the puppies came to be until many comments had already been made and not only didn't show remorse for allowing it to happen, but quite contrarily made a remark about it being her dog's _first litter_ seeming to imply that more were planned to follow, those first comments were completely understandable. And as for those that followed, people are entitled to their own opinions on a public forum. If you want people to only respond positively to your pictures, either explain what happened and show signs of trying to make it better (that mean speutering BOTH dogs) or post it somewhere that isn't public. This is common sense, people. :der:


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## Crantastic (Feb 3, 2010)

Yeah, if you want people to fawn over your "cute puppies" and refrain from criticizing you, that's what Facebook albums are for.

And for the record, anything I say on DF, I would say to someone's face.


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## animalcraker (Nov 9, 2006)

Have you considered having the pups spayed/neutered before sending them off to their new homes? That way you be sure that they get fixed and they won't add to anymore accidental pregnancies.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

I think it's advised not to spay/neuter them until they are close to sexual maturity - and by then the demand for the puppies decreases drastically, because most buyers want an 8-12 month old puppy. I think someone mentioned on this thread that you can actually have the buyers pay for the spay/neuter in advance and show proof when they pick up the puppy to get around that.

Personally I don't think they need to be on a spay/neuter contract as long as you tell the buyer the parents' story - and let the buyer make the decision whether to be responsible with their intact dog or opt for surgery to make life easier. But that's just my opinion


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

cynster said:


> I think it's advised not to spay/neuter them until they are close to sexual maturity - and by then the demand for the puppies decreases drastically, because most buyers want an 8-12 month old puppy. I think someone mentioned on this thread that you can actually have the buyers pay for the spay/neuter in advance and show proof when they pick up the puppy to get around that.
> 
> Personally I don't think they need to be on a spay/neuter contract as long as you tell the buyer the parents' story - and let the buyer make the decision whether to be responsible with their intact dog or opt for surgery to make life easier. But that's just my opinion


There is absolutely no chance that I would ever let puppies out of my control without some sort of assurance that they would be speutered. I wouldn't choose to early spay/neuter my own dog, but if I do think the possible harm of it is greatly outweighed by the benefit of knowing that those dogs will never be bred. If it were me that made the mistake of allowing my dogs to breed (unplanned), I definitely wouldn't chance it that any of the offspring could possibly get pregnant too. Not with the amount of dogs killed in shelters in the US. In my honest opinion, I think it is the OP's personal responsibility to prevent that possibility, be it through a contract, early speuter or another way. I wouldn't just let some random people "make that decision for themselves" with a dog I created.


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## cynster (Feb 26, 2011)

But even though you created, I feel that the people buying the dog have a right to make important decisions about their dog. I've never agreed with spay contracts, even though I do think they do good with some people. I've never bought a dog with a spay contract and I never will on principle. If I decide to spay/neuter my dog it is going to be my decision, and I wouldn't want to make that decision for anyone else. If someone can't make that kind of decision with their dog, should they really be adopting one of the puppies in the first place? I can see why shelters do it because getting them adopted is the #1 goal and they believe reducing the population is key to their success. But when you have only 3-12 puppies to find homes for, by all means, be selective. Educate. I feel we jump to spaying too quickly when a crate would do just as good.


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## kafkabeetle (Dec 4, 2009)

cynster said:


> Educate. I feel we jump to spaying too quickly when a crate would do just as good.


I want to believe that is good enough. But look at the OP. She knew she needed to keep the dogs separated and for whatever reason that didn't happen and there was an accidental pregnancy. Sometimes it isn't that people don't know (I mean, duh two intact dogs can and will do it if allowed to) but just that is _is_ more difficult than it sounds to make sure there aren't any accidents. I make stupid mistakes all the time in my life. I definitely don't think I, personally, could keep two intact dogs and know for certain a pregnancy wouldn't happen at some point. I mean, I could have to have someone watch them in an emergency or they could both get loose, or I could simply be busy and forget to keep them apart at the right time. To me, I don't see spay/neuter contracts or early speuter as patronizing or avoiding the hassle of education people. I think they are just an absolute assurance that no matter what happens in the life of that dog, it will not be reproducing. Which I see as a totally reasonable expectation for mixed breed, oops litter puppies.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

Elida said:


> These puppies might have found homes, but what if because of these 9 pups, one puppy, just one, will be killed in a shelter?
> 
> Accidents do happen, but they should not be encouraged IMHO.
> At least people should not be coming here bragging about their new litter and how they found nice homes (homes stolen from the ones who need it desperately), because it really hurts some of us here.


Would you ask the same question about intentionally bred puppies?



Pareeeee said:


> I'm currently searching for a new dog forum to join. People make up a lot of excuses to behave badly. It's rediculous. Don't you _dare_ blame the OP for *your* bad behaviour just to make you feel better about yourselves...


I suggest AOL's Canine Behavior Board. If you have issues with rude people, you should have a field day there.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> You don't 'buy' from a shelter, you adopt from them


Bologna. The moment money exchanges hands, it is a purchase. Pure and simple.


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## SydTheSpaniel (Feb 12, 2011)

There's a lot of insulting starting to happen in this thread.... I wonder where the moderators are to either lock the thread or make peace? This is starting to get out of hand... =/


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Bologna. The moment money exchanges hands, it is a purchase. Pure and simple.


I really don't agree with this. When you pay an adoption fee to adopt a dog, you're actually making a donation to the shelter/rescue. It's not profit. The money goes to help out the others dogs in the shelter. Therefore, I don't agree that you "buy" dogs from shelters. When you get a T-shirt or something from a charity organization for making a donation, are you "buying" a shirt from them? I don't think so. 

Adoption is a non-business-like trading of possession. I would definitely NOT call an animal shelter a business.


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## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Dictionary definition of purchase:
To obtain in exchange for money or its equivalent; buy.

Doesn't matter what the money GOES towards or if it's profit. Money exchanged hands, which means the dog was bought.


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## cjtabares (Apr 26, 2011)

Nargle said:


> I really don't agree with this. When you pay an adoption fee to adopt a dog, you're actually making a donation to the shelter/rescue. It's not profit. The money goes to help out the others dogs in the shelter. Therefore, I don't agree that you "buy" dogs from shelters. When you get a T-shirt or something from a charity organization for making a donation, are you "buying" a shirt from them? I don't think so.
> 
> Adoption is a non-business-like trading of possession. I would definitely NOT call an animal shelter a business.


Yes you are buying a shirt with the proceeds going to a good cause. And how can u call it a donation if it is forced?


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## Curbside Prophet (Apr 28, 2006)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> I wonder where the moderators are to either lock the thread or make peace? This is starting to get out of hand... =/


I'm going to be human for a second with some rhetoric...

How exactly do you expect the mods to be everywhere, all the time?
How exactly do you expect the mods to interpret what's been written as you do, in this thread or any other?
Are you aware of the report button? No one has reported any rule violations.
Peace is a choice on internet forums.

Carry on.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Xeph said:


> Dictionary definition of purchase:
> To obtain in exchange for money or its equivalent; buy.
> 
> Doesn't matter what the money GOES towards or if it's profit. Money exchanged hands, which means the dog was bought.


While I know this isn't the norm, I really did "adopt" Chester. I paid the city licensing fees which the shelter had no control over and I made a donation in the amount of my choice to the shelter. I could have given $1 or $100.

And as far as the IRS is concerned, there is a difference between "buying" something and "donating" money in exchange for something, so just because money exchanges hands doesn't make it the same thing. You can't deduct the full amount you donate when you get back something like a tee-shirt, but you can deduct the amount over the regular cost of the shirt.

Also, edit to add:
The exchange of money shouldn't be the main factor in whether to consider something an "adoption" or a "purchase" given the fact that many people who adopt children end up paying large sums of money to the adopting agencies. Would you say that someone bought their child? At least in theory, the money paid to both animal shelters and children's adoption agencies is used to provide care and services to the animals and children (respectively) that each serve and that neither actually goes out and produces more animals or children.


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## Nargle (Oct 1, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Dictionary definition of purchase:
> To obtain in exchange for money or its equivalent; buy.
> 
> Doesn't matter what the money GOES towards or if it's profit. Money exchanged hands, which means the dog was bought.


I gotta disagree. An adoption fee is a charitable donation. An animal shelter is a halfway home for homeless pets, not a dog-selling business. 



> Yes you are buying a shirt with the proceeds going to a good cause. And how can u call it a donation if it is forced?


What's forced? You don't have to adopt from a shelter or donate to them in any way if you don't want to. In fact, if it was forced, I think it'd be called taxes, lol! 

Speaking of which, I wouldn't call taxes "buying" government either. There are many ways in which money can be exchanged which aren't a purchase.


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## BoxMeIn21 (Apr 10, 2007)

cynster said:


> But even though you created, I feel that the people buying the dog have a right to make important decisions about their dog. I've never agreed with spay contracts, even though I do think they do good with some people. I've never bought a dog with a spay contract and I never will on principle. If I decide to spay/neuter my dog it is going to be my decision, and I wouldn't want to make that decision for anyone else. If someone can't make that kind of decision with their dog, should they really be adopting one of the puppies in the first place? I can see why shelters do it because getting them adopted is the #1 goal and they believe reducing the population is key to their success. But when you have only 3-12 puppies to find homes for, by all means, be selective. Educate. I feel we jump to spaying too quickly when a crate would do just as good.


I am not sure why you are confused about this...so this was an accidental litter, not a planned one. If your buying a dog under these circumstances then you should accept and decide if this is what you're in the market for. If the owner of the bitch and it's pups decide to do a pediatric spay and neuter, then so be it....in the end you are the one handing over the money or not.


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## cjtabares (Apr 26, 2011)

Nargle said:


> I gotta disagree. An adoption fee is a charitable donation. An animal shelter is a halfway home for homeless pets, not a dog-selling business.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol. But taxes are not buying goverment, they are buying the services said government provides. The government should provide something in return for your taxes. 

If you want to get a shelter dog then you are forced to give them a donation, I have no problem with this it cost money to keep the shelters going and if they can recoup the price it cost to rescue the dog and let's the shelter continue to ok what they do.


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## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

SydTheSpaniel said:


> There's a lot of insulting starting to happen in this thread.... I wonder where the moderators are to either lock the thread or make peace? This is starting to get out of hand... =/


Have you reported this thread?

Someone finally did and the post with the personal insult was deleted, along with the post quoting it. 

It might surprise you to learn that we read mostly what's interesting to us, unless someone reports a problem. 

In my opinion, the most insulting thing in this thread was the "threat" to leave the forum to find a friendlier one. We really hate goodbyes, so anyone who feels the need to move on, please do it quietly and with a little dignity.


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## grab (Sep 26, 2009)

I believe the OP was away at training when the breeding took place. Thus the irresponsible behavior was really on the shoulders of the person watching the dogs.

As a note to the OP: If you leave Misty intact, you'll likely still have to separate the two dogs when she's in season. Neutered males can still mate..they just can't reproduce. I had an emergency call at work for a neutered male who tied with his unspayed housemate. He ended up with a laceration all around his penis when she pulled free and we had to do emergency surgery.


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