# Rottweiler or Doberman?



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Which do you think is the smarter or more aggressive? I have always tried to see which one is less aggressive. I have heard Rotties are less aggressive than the Dobie. Anyone know anything about the 2 breeds?

These 2 breeds are similar, but what is the difference?


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Someone told me that Dobermans don't live long because their brains keep growing even when their bodies have stopped growing. I don't think it's true, probably just told me that to keep me from getting one. If it is true then that's pretty sad. I'ed really like to know if it is though.


----------



## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

I've heard that Rotties are more stable then dobies, but I have no idea where I heard it, or who told me. 

So, take that with a grain of salt. 

Redyre Rotties *hopefully* will see this post and come to your rescue! 

I also think that maybe Carla's mom had rotties...at least...I think she's posted as much on the forum elsewhere.

Here, I found this for you: 

Your Purebred Puppy, Your Candid Guide to Dogs and Dog Breeds 
Purebred Dogs vs.
Mixed Breed Dogs Which Dog Breed
Is Best For You? 11 Things You Must Do
Right To Keep Your Dog
Healthy and Happy
Advice You Can Trust:
180 Dog Breed Reviews Teach Your Dog
100 English Words Test Your Dog's IQ!

Rottweilers: the most honest dog breed review you'll ever find. Information about Rottweiler personality and behavior.

main page

breed review

faq

health

training

adopting/buying

links


My book, Your Purebred Puppy: A Buyer's Guide (published by Henry Holt Your Purebred Puppy: A Buyer's Guide Co.), includes a full-page profile of the Rottweiler, including these excerpts:

"The AKC Standard describes the Rottweiler as "a calm, confident, and courageous dog with a self-assured aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships."

Steadfast and usually serious, the Rottweiler tends to respond quietly and with a wait-and-see attitude to influences in his environment.

This muscular dog needs some space and exercise: brisk daily walks, interactive romping sessions, and regular opportunities to stretch out and run. Mental exercise (advanced obedience, agility, retrieving a ball, Schutzhund) is even more important and appreciated.

Rottweilers must be thoroughly socialized at an early age so that their territorial instincts are controlled rather than indiscriminate.

They can be aggressive with other dogs of the same sex, and some individuals are predatory with cats.

Rottweilers are inclined to test for position in the family pecking order, but they will respect an assertive owner who knows how to lead a strong-minded dog.

Overall, the Rottweiler is a splendid, capable companion in the right hands, but without ongoing companionship, socialization, obedience training, and supervision, he is too much dog."


History
Developed in Rottweil, Germany, he drove the butcher's cattle to and from market, pulled carts, and protected farm and family.


Size
22-27 inches and 80-130 lbs


Rottweilers
What's good about 'em
What's bad about 'em

* There are energetic Rottweilers, and placid Rottweilers.
* Hard-headed Rottweilers, and sweet-natured Rottweilers.
* Serious Rottweilers, and good-natured goofballs.
* Introverted Rottweilers, and Rottweilers who love everyone. 

If you acquire a Rottweiler puppy, you can't know for sure what he or she will grow up to be like. Because a good number of purebred puppies do NOT grow up to conform to the "norm."


Now let's look at some common characteristics for this breed...


If you want a dog who...

* Is large, stocky, muscular, and powerful
* Is calm, steady-tempered, confident, and courageous
* Is versatile -- when well-trained, can learn and do almost anything
* Makes a fine watchdog and guardian 

A Rottweiler may be right for you.



If you don't want to deal with...

* An extremely careful search to avoid all the bad-tempered Rottweilers
* A bulky dog who takes up a lot of space in your house and car
* A heavy dog who wants to sit on your feet, lie on your lap, and lean his weight against your leg
* Rowdiness and exuberant jumping, especially when young
* Destructiveness when bored or not exercised enough
* Providing enough socialization so their protectiveness doesn't become aggression
* Aggression toward other animals -- chasing instincts
* Strong-willed mind of his own, requiring a confident owner who can take charge
* Slobbering and drooling
* Gassiness (flatulence)
* Shedding
* Legal liabilities (public perception, future breed bans, insurance problems, increased chance of lawsuits)
* A multitude of serious health problems and a short lifespan 

A Rottweiler may not be right for you.



If I were considering a Rottweiler...

My major concerns would be:

1. Unstable temperaments. Rottweilers are a dime a dozen, and most of them are bred and offered for sale by people who don't have the slightest idea of how to breed good-tempered dogs. Obedience instructors and behavioral consultants see LOTS of Rottweilers who are dangerously sharp, aggressive, or fearful.

2. Providing the proper balance of exercise. Young Rottweilers need enough exercise to keep them lean and healthy, but not so much that their soft growing bones, joints, and ligaments become over-stressed and damaged. Adult Rottweilers need more exercise to keep them in shape, but not in hot or humid weather for fear of overheating.

Since you have to minimize their exercise, young Rottweilers can be very rambunctious. They will romp with uncoordinated gawkiness all over your house. You need to substitute extra quantities of companionship and supervision. Otherwise, left alone, young Rottweilers become bored and destructive -- and their powerful jaws can literally destroy your living room.

If you simply want a pet for your family, and don't have the time or inclination to take your dog running or hiking or biking or swimming, or to get involved in advanced obedience, or agility (obstacle course), or schutzhund (protection), or tracking, or pulling a cart or sled, or a similar canine activity, I do not recommend this breed.

3. Providing enough socialization. Most Rottweilers have protective instincts toward strangers. They need extensive exposure to friendly people so they learn to recognize the normal behaviors of "good guys." Then they can recognize the difference when someone acts abnormally. Without careful socialization, they may be suspicious of everyone, which could lead to biting. Some Rottweilers go in the opposite direction -- without enough socialization, they become fearful of strangers, which can lead to defensive biting.

If you have small children, I do not recommend a Rottweiler. Young Rottweilers (up to about three years old) can be bulls in a china shop. When they romp and jump, they do so with great vigor, and things can go flying, including people. In addition, Rottweilers may try to protect their own children from other children, which could lead to tragedy if kids are simply roughhousing and your Rottweiler decides to stop it. With such a massive dog, I wouldn't take the risk.

4. Animal aggression. Many Rottweilers will not tolerate another dog of the same sex, and some won't tolerate the opposite sex either. Some Rottweilers have strong instincts to chase and seize cats and other fleeing creatures. If anything goes wrong in the breeding, socializing, training, handling, or management of this breed, it is capable of seriously injuring or killing other animals.

5. The strong temperament. Rottweilers are not Golden Retrievers. The best Rottweilers are versatile working dogs, capable of learning a great deal, but they are not pushovers to raise and train. Some Rottweilers are willful, obstinate, and dominant (they want to be the boss) and will make you prove that you can make them do things. You must show them, through absolute consistency, that you mean what you say.

To teach your Rottweiler to listen to you, "Respect Training" is mandatory. My Rottweiler Training Page discusses the program you need.

6. Shedding. Rottweilers shed more than you might think. Their short, coarse hairs come off on your hands when you pet them, and stick tenaciously to your carpeting, upholstery, and clothing.

7. Slobbering. Some Rottweilers, especially large males with loose jowls, tend to slobber or drool, especially after eating and drinking.

8. Gassiness (flatulence) that can send you running for cover. Fortunately, Rottweilers who are fed a natural diet of real meat and other fresh foods have much less trouble with gassiness. See my Rottweiler Health Page for more information.

9. Serious health problems. The Rottweiler is one of the riskiest of all breeds in the health department. Their lifespan has become short -- an alarming number of Rottweilers are crippled by bone and joint diseases and/or succumb to cancer or heart disease in middle age.

To keep this breed healthy, I strongly recommend following all of the advice on my Rottweiler Health Page.

10. Legal liabilities. Rottweilers may be targeted for "banning" in certain areas, or refusal of homeowner insurance policies. Your friends and neighbors may be uncomfortable around this breed. In this day and age, the legal liabilities of owning any breed that looks intimidating and has a history as a guard dog should be seriously considered. People are quicker to sue if such a dog does anything even remotely questionable.

Frankly, most Rottweilers are "too much dog" for the average household. Very few people really have the knowledge or skills necessary to manage this breed or to provide the activities that keep him satisfied.



If you're considering an adult Rottweiler...

There are plenty of adult Rottweilers who have already proven themselves NOT to have negative characteristics. If you find such an adult, don't let "typical breed negatives" worry you.

When you acquire a puppy, you're acquiring potential -- what he one day will be. So "typical breed characteristics" are very important. But when you acquire an adult, you're acquiring what he already IS.



Copyright © 2000-2006 by Michele Welton. All rights reserved. No part of this website may be reproduced without the permission of the author.


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

What ever you pick take you rtime and find a good breeder with a good contract it will be worth it in the long run! Good luck


----------



## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

Doberman Pinscher, including these excerpts:

"This athletic dog needs brisk walking every day and all-out running as often as possible. Too little exercise and too little companionship can lead to restlessness and other behavioral problems.

Mental exercise (advanced obedience, agility, tracking, Schutzhund) is just as important to this thinking breed.

Though some Doberman Pinschers are big softies who love everyone, most are reserved with strangers and protective of their family. Early and extensive socialization is mandatory to avoid either shyness or sharpness.

Some Doberman Pinschers are dominant with other dogs. Some are confirmed cat chasers, while others love small animals.

Some excel in advanced obedience competition, while others are hardheaded and will test to find their place in the pecking order.

Calm, consistent leadership is a must, and obedience training must be upbeat and persuasive rather than sharp. This breed does not tolerate teasing or mischief."


History
The Doberman Pinscher (also spelled Dobermann Pinscher) was developed in Germany by Louis Dobermann as a guard and military dog.


Size
24-28 inches and 60-85 lbs


Doberman Pinschers
What's good about 'em
What's bad about 'em

If you want a dog who...

* Is large and strong, yet sleek- and elegant-looking
* Has a short easy-care coat
* Thrives on exercise, athletic activities, and challenging things to do
* Looks serious and imposing, so makes an effective deterrent even when friendly 

A Doberman Pinscher may be right for you.



If you don't want to deal with...

* An extra careful search to avoid dangerous lines
* Providing enough exercise to keep him satisfied
* Rowdiness and exuberant jumping, especially when young
* Aggression, sharpness, suspiciousness, or shyness when not socialized enough
* Aggression toward other animals
* Emotional sensitivity to stress and loud voices
* Physical sensitivity (tendency to react defensively when startled or mishandled)
* Shedding
* A multitude of serious health problems
* Legal liabilities (public perception, future breed bans, insurance problems, increased chance of lawsuits) 

A Dobermann Pinscher may not be right for you.



If I were considering a Doberman Pinscher...

My major concerns would be:

1. Unstable temperaments. Doberman Pinschers are a dime a dozen, and most of them are bred and offered for sale by people who don't have the slightest idea of how to breed good-tempered dogs. Obedience instructors and behavioral consultants see LOTS of Doberman Pinschers with neurotic behaviors, including aggression and biting, extreme fearfulness, and hyperactivity.

2. Providing enough exercise and mental stimulation. Doberman Pinschers MUST have regular opportunities to vent their energy and do interesting things. Otherwise they will become rambunctious and bored -- which they usually express by barking and destructive chewing. Bored Doberman Pinschers can make a shambles of your house and yard.

If you simply want a pet for your family, and don't have the time or inclination to take your dog running or hiking or biking or swimming, or to get involved in agility (obstacle course), or advanced obedience, or tracking, or schutzhund (protection), or a similar canine activity, I do not recommend this breed.

3. Providing enough socialization. Many Dobermann Pinschers have protective instincts toward strangers. They need extensive exposure to friendly people so they learn to recognize the normal behaviors of "good guys." Then they can recognize the difference when someone acts abnormally. Without careful socialization, they may be suspicious of everyone, which could lead to biting. Some Dobermans go in the opposite direction -- without enough socialization, they become fearful of strangers, which can lead to defensive biting.

To teach your Doberman to listen to you, "Respect Training" is mandatory. My Doberman Pinscher Training Page discusses the program you need.

4. Animal aggression. Some Doberman Pinschers are dominant or aggressive toward other dogs of the same sex. Many have strong instincts to chase and seize cats and other fleeing creatures. If anything goes wrong in the breeding, socializing, training, handling, or management of this breed, it is capable of seriously injuring or killing other animals.

5. Emotional sensitivity. Be honest...is there tension in your home? Are people loud or angry or emotional? Are there arguments or fights? Doberman Pinschers are extremely sensitive to stress and can end up literally sick to their stomachs, with digestive upsets and nervous behaviors, if the people in their home are having family problems.

If you have small children, I do not recommend a Doberman Pinscher. First, young Dobermanns (up to about two years old) romp and jump with great vigor, and things can go flying, including people. Second, Doberman Pinschers may try to protect their own children from other children, which could lead to tragedy if kids are simply roughhousing and your Doberman decides to stop it. Finally, there are just too many Dobermans who feel overwhelmed by the loud voices and quick movements that children can't help making -- and stress and shyness (even defensive biting) may be the result.

6. Shedding. Doberman Pinschers shed more than you might think. Their short coarse hairs come off on your hands when you pet them, and stick tenaciously to your carpeting, upholstery, and clothing.

7. Extremely high prices. Some breeders are charging over $1500 for a Doberman puppy. In my opinion, this is absolutely absurd and I wouldn't even consider supporting prices like this.

8. Serious health problems. In the health department, Doberman Pinschers are extremely risky. An alarming number of Dobermans die of heart disease and cancer at an early age.

To keep this breed healthy, I strongly recommend following all of the advice on my Doberman Pinscher Health Page.

9. Legal liabilities. Doberman Pinschers may be targeted for "banning" in certain areas, or refusal of homeowner insurance policies. Your friends and neighbors may be uncomfortable around this breed. In this day and age, the legal liabilities of owning any breed that looks intimidating and has a history as a guard dog should be seriously considered. People are quicker to sue if such a dog does anything even remotely questionable.

Frankly, most Doberman Pinschers are "too much dog" for the average household. Very few people really have the knowledge or skills necessary to manage this breed, or to provide the activities that keep him satisfied.



Not all Doberman Pinschers are alike!

* There are energetic Dobermans, and placid Dobermans.
* Hard-headed Dobermans, and sweet-natured Dobermans.
* Serious Dobermans, and good-natured goofballs.
* Introverted Dobermans, and Dobermans who love everyone. 

If you acquire a Doberman Pinscher puppy, you can't know for sure what he or she will grow up to be like. Because a good number of purebred puppies do NOT grow up to conform to the "norm."


If you're considering an adult Doberman Pinscher...

There are plenty of adult Doberman Pinschers who have already proven themselves NOT to have negative characteristics. If you find such an adult, don't let "typical breed negatives" worry you.

When you acquire a puppy, you're acquiring potential -- what he one day will be. So "typical breed characteristics" are very important. But when you acquire an adult, you're acquiring what he already IS.



Copyright © 2000-2006 by Michele Welton. All rights reserved. No part of this website may be reproduced without the permission of the author.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Someone told me that Dobermans don't live long because their brains keep growing even when their bodies have stopped growing. I don't think it's true, probably just told me that to keep me from getting one. If it is true then that's pretty sad. I'ed really like to know if it is though.


Yeah... not true...

I personally love both breeds, but I think I'd be better suited to owning a rottie. They're wonderful dogs. Dobes are also just plain gorgeous animals.


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> Which do you think is the smarter or more aggressive? I have always tried to see which one is less aggressive. I have heard Rotties are less aggressive than the Dobie. Anyone know anything about the 2 breeds?
> 
> These 2 breeds are similar, but what is the difference?


Their built different and from the ones that I have known Rotties don't have as much fear as Dobies.


----------



## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

If I had to chooe a rottie or a dob I would choose a dobe. I like their look more then the rotties. But I know several of both and they are wonderful dogs. You HAVE TO HAVE TO HAVE TO socialize them ALOT and you also have to keep them busy with long walks, lots of exercise and mental stimulation. A friend of my boyfriends has a rottie and when they first brought him home he chewed a hole in the living room wall. It was about 6 foot wide by 3 foot tall, he chewed away the drywall, puled out the insulation and was actually chewing on the 2 by 4 studs!!!!! Luckily they got home in time to stop him because I can't imagine what would have happened if he bit a wire....poor Duke! They have since fixed the wall and duke is put into the kitchen with his food and toys when they leave now. 
And my boyfriend used to have a doberman and if they were out of the house for more than six hours someone had to come and let the dog out because he would go nutso and chew everything in sight and mess in the house.


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Yeah... not true...
> 
> I personally love both breeds, but I think I'd be better suited to owning a rottie. They're wonderful dogs. Dobes are also just plain gorgeous animals.


Yeah, I really didn't think it was. That's sick that someone told me that to keep me from getting one. Pretty pathetic but whatever. 
I love both but Dobies are my favorite.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Thanks for all the replys. They are so darn similar! Looks like they both have VERY similar characteristics. Im still not sure which I like better, Im in a rush right now so I will come back and look at all that information later probably tomorrow.


----------



## Chloef_2799 (Feb 1, 2007)

sillylilykitty Thanks for all the replys. They are so darn similar! Looks like they both have VERY similar characteristics. Im still not sure which I like better, Im in a rush right now so I will come back and look at all that information later probably tomorrow. 

Well I would say they are similar in temperament, certain colouration (black and tan) and size (BIG DAWGS!) but they are different in build and the way they are built. Rotties are more bully looking and alot bulkier and they have the huge muscular beefy bodies. But dobes are tall, slim and very athletic looking and they can have different colours as well. If I had to give an example I would say rotties are built like bulls and dobbies are built like gazelles.
An aquaintance of mine has two dobes a red one (I don't know the actualy name for the colouration, but she is carmel and red with a lite brownish nose) and her other dobe is a white one (he was a rescue). But I have never seen rotties with any other colours than black and tan.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Oh, change of plans im back already!  But yeah, I know the difference in looks, its the personality im talking about, im not sure which one is best suited for me and Lily, personality wise. Of course im not sure if I would actually get one, I would like to be able to tell people the difference besides looks and besides my personal experience. I have only met 2 dobies no rotties and both dobies were viscous at obedience class. One was muzzled (with the smarter owner) the other not muzzled (with the stupid owner) and it was the one that killed a little maltese dog (during a class!).

I know I have met very poor examples of the Doberman breed, another reason why I want to know what they should act like.

Anyone own one of these breeds?


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, maybe the best thing to ask is why are you interested in these two breeds in the first place? What qualities do you want/need in a dog?


----------



## ScareCrow (Mar 9, 2007)

My in laws raised Rottweilers for a long time and still have two as pets. My wifes aunt also had a Doberman so I've had experience being around both breeds, although it is limited to an extent. From what I've seen, the Doberman is much more protective, especially around strangers. When my wife and I first started dating I couldn't walk in the backyard by myself because the Rottweilers would have ripped me apart but if I went back there with my wife they were fine and playful. When I went to visit with my wife's aunt it was a different story, I hated that dog. I couldn't hold my wifes hand, make any sudden movements, or do anything else that might make that dog think I was in the wrong. It took a really long time of me being around for that Doberman to accept me as part of the family and allow me to be comfortable, the Rottweilers took to me pretty fast though. 

I would have a personal issue adopting an adult Doberman because of my past experiences with the dog and how long it took for the one to accept me. I wouldn't have a problem adopting an adult Rottweiler though or getting a Doberman as a puppy. I wouldn't suggest a Doberman unless you are the type that rarely has company, the one I've had experience was well socialized outside the house but not very nice to strangers in his domain.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Well, maybe the best thing to ask is why are you interested in these two breeds in the first place? What qualities do you want/need in a dog?


I am interested because I like big strong dogs. I like that they are protective. But I would rather have a too little protective dog than too much protective. Maybe these 2 breeds are too aggressive for me, I have a cat and she is more important than the new dog if you know what I mean (shes there first).

Hmmm I dont know, I guess I feel kinda lost in the dog world without having a favorite breed. I have my favorite cat breeds, but dogs are a much more serious commitment, maybe I should be asking for suggestions for the "perfect" (I know there is no real perfect) breed for me.


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

You want a protective dog that basically describes a lot of different breeds. As long as your part of there family they're going to be there to help you against someone trying to do you harm. Goldern Retreivers have been known to gaurd there family against a robber. It all depends on how much protection you want. If you want a dog that is capable of killing someone trying to do you harm then a Pitbull, Rottie, Dobie and a few other breeds would probably be good enough to do the job. If you want a family orientaded dog that would protect you when need be but be able enough to be around strangers then there are dogs like the GSD, Lab, and Golden Retriever. Honestly I think dogs can sense when someone is a pottential threat so as long as you have a well sized dog with teeth you have a dog that can protect you when need be.


----------



## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

They are somewhat similar when you look at what they were bred for.

Rottweilers were first off, cattle dogs. Hence, their "independent" attitude. Then, and mostly now a days, used as protection dogs. Doberman's were firstly and lastly bred for human protection by Louis Dobermann. I believe I had read somewhere that Rottweilers did go into the making of the Doberman, but you may never know. I forget where I had read... I think German Pinschers were on the list somwhere too...

I think either breed can be stable, with responsible breeding and proper socialization, but I would lean more towards Rottweilers if forced to choose which would be MORE stable.

Personally, I prefer Doberman's to Rottweilers APPEARANCE wise and have met some brilliant Dobes in the obedience ring. The few I've met in comparison to the tonne of Goldens and labs you see in obedience, outshone them by far. A woman I've spoken with over the internet also has two obedience/agility dobes, absolutely gorgeous, hard working creatures. Intelligent is the first word I would use to describe them.

Roxy, who is half rottweiler half dobe, is quite a handful at that. She does have a "Doberman" personality, quite high strung and nervous. Although, much of her unstable personality is due to genetics. Not every Rott or Dobe will be like Roxy, but from owning a mix first hand, she is/was overly protective. Quite a handful to say the least.

There are a tonne of breeds out there, large dogs, that are also similar in appearance if that's something that attracted to the Rott or Dobe that in general, aren't as much of a handful.

Going to a site like dogbreedinfo, which have pretty much every breed you can imagine, and going through the pictures, and somewhat educational information may give you a better idea 

If you go there make sure to check out Hades picture in the American Pitbull Terrier picture page  He he!

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/purebred.htm


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

A family dog that is able to protect but more of a family dog would be perfect. I guess that crosses out the dobe and rottie since they are bred to protect.

I like the GSD! I have one problem with them that I have heard of. They have many health problems. But is that not a problem if you go to an excellent breeder?


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Health problems can always be a problem even with the best of dogs. Going to a good breeder and making sure all necasary health testing was done is the best thing you can do to make sure your dog is less likely to get health problems. Then again you could look into getting a one from a GSD rescue. I think that there is even a chance you could get a police dog. Sometimes the dogs they put through training aren't good enough to be police dogs. They're good for protecting but also safe enough to be in a family home. You could look into that too if you wanted.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Well, if you're not really sure what you want, then one of the best things I can tell you is to try to go to a dog show and meet some of the breeds in person. It's a great way to see a lot of dogs of different breeds and to talk to people involved in those breeds.


----------



## ScareCrow (Mar 9, 2007)

You know, before I decided to go to the shelter and get a dog I had looked into buying a pure breed dog. The breed I had decided to go with was the Akita, they don't bark much, they do need proper socialization as pups but can be good with other animals, extremely tolerant of small children, and they were bred to be guard dogs so are very protective. I still want one but they tend to be pretty expensive, I also don't know if I could deal with the hair. I would have suggested an American Staffordshire Terrier like Annie, they really are great with people but I don't think they would be able to be trusted around a cat even after being raised around it. You might consider going to some of your local shelters and looking at some of the dogs that are up for adoption that are good around cats. 

Annie is super protective of her family now and we have only had her a few months at most. I have no doubt that if someone broke into my house and tried to hurt one of us they would have to kill her first. Shoot I can't even raise my voice at my kids without her getting between me and them and giving me a bark to tell me she's not happy.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Laurelin said:


> Well, if you're not really sure what you want, then one of the best things I can tell you is to try to go to a dog show and meet some of the breeds in person. It's a great way to see a lot of dogs of different breeds and to talk to people involved in those breeds.


Thanks Laurelin! I totally forgot about going to shows. I would LOVE to go to a dog show! In fact I remember looking for one to go to but the last one I could go to in Colorado was the same weekend of the cat show.

I will have to look again to see the next one I can go to.


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Haha... yeah dogs are never happy when their family fights. My dog gets really upset when I get in a fight with someone and start yelling. My sister tried to get her pitbull mix to attack me and he practically lied down on top of me and started whining at her because he didn't want to hurt me. She thouht it was pretty funny to wake me up like that early in the morning.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Haha! Thats funny, when I yell Lily will run up and bite me.


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

From my understanding, OP does not have a dog right now and to go from nothing to a Dobie or a Rott is a B I G jump. That being said, if I was in your position I would definitly get a Rott because a Doberman takes a lot of time and a lot of dedication to train and devote too. A Doberman also comes with the added ear-cropping which means you need to be prepared to dealing with blood, ear taping, and all that other stuff that comes with ear cropping. Also, a Doberman needs a lot of exercise to attain a lean body where the Rott is a "fatter" dog.

Both dogs are great, but neither one of them is for bigginers.

Good luck.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> From my understanding, OP does not have a dog right now and to go from nothing to a Dobie or a Rott is a B I G jump. That being said, if I was in your position I would definitly get a Rott because a Doberman takes a lot of time and a lot of dedication to train and devote too. A Doberman also comes with the added ear-cropping which means you need to be prepared to dealing with blood, ear taping, and all that other stuff that comes with ear cropping. Also, a Doberman needs a lot of exercise to attain a lean body where the Rott is a "fatter" dog.
> 
> Both dogs are great, but neither one of them is for bigginers.
> 
> Good luck.


Your right I have never had a dog before. I think it would be best that I got a begginer dog too. So maybe not a Rottie or a Dobie but what about a GSD? Is that still too much for a beginer?


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> Your right I have never had a dog before. I think it would be best that I got a begginer dog too. So maybe not a Rottie or a Dobie but what about a GSD? Is that still too much for a beginer?


Doberman_07 is so right don't get either if it is your first time! The ASPCA Complete Guide to Dogs is a great book, it will give you info on size, experience needed, how much groming needed, and exercise needed. If you go for a GSD be carefull like with any breed find a good breeded, Shepards are a nice dog,but popular and some are over breed due to this.


----------



## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> Your right I have never had a dog before. I think it would be best that I got a begginer dog too. So maybe not a Rottie or a Dobie but what about a GSD? Is that still too much for a beginer?


GSDs can be tough for a beginner. They require a lot of work to be properly socialized as well. GSDs like dobes and rotties do have a fair number of health problems due to their popularity and poor breeding. If you decide to get a GSD take your time and find a good breeder. The same goes for any of the large breeds mentioned though. Most of them are very popular and are prone to various health issues.

Honestly a golden retriever does make a good guard dog. Herding dogs also make good guard dogs as well. Most dogs will attack if they know their master is in danger regardless of their size. The trick is to keep them exercised so they don't destroy everything you own. Even a well exercised puppy of the larger breeds can surprise you.

My mother was sitting down and down eating breakfast one morning when their current golden Nitro (who was a 5 month old pup at the time) walked up behind her and chewed off of a big piece of her bathrobe.  My mother has never forgiven the big lug even though he'll be 7 this year. That was one puppy who was rambunctious at any point and tested his limits in some interesting ways.

Just remember, big dogs equal a lot of work. Go out to a dog show or two, and visit any local shelter that you can. Get to know the exercise requirements of any of the breeds you are considering.


----------



## iwantmypup (Jan 6, 2007)

My aunt had a doberman...but the dog was mean - ish now that she(my aunt) had a baby.. I wish I could say if GSD was too much or not . But I shouldn't as I am a first time doggy owner and we don't even know what she is!

But I would recommend Rotti ...not sure about GSD


----------



## onyxdaily (Apr 3, 2007)

From my experience, for first time dog owners, I think a Labrador Retriever would be a nice choice. Extremely friendly, good with other animals and children, and pretty easily trainable (in my experience). Not too great as watch dogs, though, although my old lab was very protective, I don't think this is the norm with labs. 
There was a link in an older post I read a few days ago that had a breed quiz in it and I thought it seemed like it would really help in breed choice. If I can find the post with the link, I will add it.


----------



## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

Both labrador retrievers and golden retrievers make great first time dogs if you can keep them exercised. There are a ton of labs and goldens in shelters because their owners can't keep up with them. They can and will get destructive on a large scale without proper exercise.

Just remember that labs and goldens are known to be extremely energetic breeds. Both are generally super friendly breeds, and do well with older children. They have to be taught how tough and big they are, so having them around young children isn't necessarily a good thing until they are older and know what is acceptable. Adult labs and goldens are normally very safe to have around children of all ages.

Goldens are more trainable, but have a decent amount of coat maintenance associated with them. Especially when they blow their coat. Routine brushing, at least twice a week is a must.

Labs really don't have a lot of coat maintenance, but they tend to be bullheaded dogs. They do shed so be aware if it. They just don't shed like other dogs with longer coats.


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> From my understanding, OP does not have a dog right now and to go from nothing to a Dobie or a Rott is a B I G jump. That being said, if I was in your position I would definitly get a Rott because a Doberman takes a lot of time and a lot of dedication to train and devote too. A Doberman also comes with the added ear-cropping which means you need to be prepared to dealing with blood, ear taping, and all that other stuff that comes with ear cropping. Also, a Doberman needs a lot of exercise to attain a lean body where the Rott is a "fatter" dog.
> 
> Both dogs are great, but neither one of them is for bigginers.
> 
> Good luck.



And that is why when I get a dobie there will be no ear cropping, no showing, and it will be a nice little odd looking dobie that never had his ears chopped into a desinged position. I never considered Rotties fat, just wider with more body index and probably more muscle.


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

xoxluvablexox said:


> And that is why when I get a dobie there will be no ear cropping, no showing, and it will be a nice little odd looking dobie that never had his ears chopped into a desinged position. I never considered Rotties fat, just wider with more body index and probably more muscle.


What ever works for you


----------



## AndyVetra (Feb 8, 2007)

If you can't decide between a Dobie and a Rottie, you could do what I did and get the perfect blend of the two!!


----------



## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

I have had both and when it comes to protection my vote go's to the dobermen. We had our dobermen for 10 years and only one time did he ever show any sign's of protectioness(not a word but you get the idea) and that one time was the only time we ever needed him to.He was sooo nice to everyone, it kind of shocked me when he stood up for my husband(it was like wow . that's my dog) He saved my husbands life(i'm sure of it)


----------



## Snowshoe (Nov 17, 2006)

You know, I would almost offer keeshonden out to you. Then again, I'm ridiculously biased, LOL! 


They're excellent watch dogs
When raised with cats, they will accept cats
They're great with friends; especially with children

The only thing they have that's actually difficult is the fur. They only shed twice per year, but when they do, they call it "blowing coat." I think you get the point.  

They're WONDERFUL cold weather dogs- like a big dog in a medium sized dog's body. They can easily fit in a car, but they can also go hiking with you. 

They are very intelligent, but very independent. 

They're not easy to train for the first time dog owner, but it can be done.  Orchid is my first real dog. They respond really well to positive reinforcement, and they will out smart you at some point  Oh, I could tell you stories...

She's been a challenge and my best friend at the same time. 

PLUS- there is a lady near you that does keeshond rescue. She owns "Silverbear Keeshonden."


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

DOBERMAN_07 said:


> What ever works for you


Great looking Dobie, do you show him?



workingdog said:


> I have had both and when it comes to protection my vote go's to the dobermen. We had our dobermen for 10 years and only one time did he ever show any sign's of protectioness(not a word but you get the idea) and that one time was the only time we ever needed him to.He was sooo nice to everyone, it kind of shocked me when he stood up for my husband(it was like wow . that's my dog) He saved my husbands life(i'm sure of it)


It looks like you are into pulling? What state do you live in? I love to watch them and know someone that still holds the record.


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Aw Andy that dog is adorable!! I want one


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

I love labs, they're loyal, smart and low maintanence, it just feels like they are so normal and ordinary, something everyone has.

I cant handle a really long coat, im not much into brushing everyday to prevent mats.

Whatever I get I plan on getting an adult or something above 1 year old. If its purebred, probably from a rescue, if its not purebred, definatly from the Humane Society.

Know of any dogs with a shorter coat, acts like a lab but is not a lab?


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Have you gone on the AKC website. They have all the dog breeds with pictures and temperments and the history and everything. Just look at the pictures and then if it looks like something you might be interested you can read about it on the website.


----------



## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I wouldn't rule out a breed just because they're ordinary or anything. Labs can be great, we used to have one. I prefer the smaller dogs myself, but that's just my taste. Honestly, the online dog quizes can only go so far. The best way to begin to decide to me is to meet the breeds in question in person. I can't think of a much better place to go meeting a bunch of breeds than a dog show. Even if you're not interested in getting a show dog or a show reject, it's interesting to go see all the dogs in person.

We'd never have ended up with papillons if it weren't for going to a dog show and talking to all sorts of toy dog owners. The papillon just ended up matching what we wanted as far as personality goes.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

You might think that I havent done any research but I have. I know all the AKC breeds, I needed to for a test in my Veterinary Science class last quarter. I also have a book of all the AKC breeds, this one actually (except I have the 1998 version) http://www.amazon.ca/Encyclopedia-Breeds-Caroline-Coile-Ph-D/dp/0764157000

I have read books, in fact every time I go into Borders thats what I do, I have been to a couple dog shows (but I was with the Chinese Shar Pei people) a couple years ago, I have asked about certain breeds from people who have owned them but then I found out they weren't for me.

So now I am asking people to help me, because I have been looking for so long. I dont know the personalities of all the different breeds, reading books wont tell me everything, I like to hear peoples opinions and experiences.



Laurelin said:


> I wouldn't rule out a breed just because they're ordinary or anything. Labs can be great, we used to have one. I prefer the smaller dogs myself, but that's just my taste. Honestly, the online dog quizes can only go so far. The best way to begin to decide to me is to meet the breeds in question in person. I can't think of a much better place to go meeting a bunch of breeds than a dog show. Even if you're not interested in getting a show dog or a show reject, it's interesting to go see all the dogs in person.
> 
> We'd never have ended up with papillons if it weren't for going to a dog show and talking to all sorts of toy dog owners. The papillon just ended up matching what we wanted as far as personality goes.


Thanks Laurelin. I havent ruled out the Lab, I just want to look at other breeds. I think the dog show is a GREAT idea and then I can ask the owners/breeders about their dogs and how they normally act. Maybe I should go to a show and then start thinking.


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

What do you think about the Beauceron?


----------



## mattmania843 (May 6, 2007)

My mom had a doberman growing up who was a very mean one man dog to her father. I'm a little bias because I LOVE ROTTIES, its just that there so big and huge and people think there vicious. Every rotty i met treated me like i was part of their family. love rotties. Just gotta be very firm with them as pups, because god knows the havoc they can wreak on you with there full size


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

I dont know anything about the Beauceron, since they just got accepted into the AKC. I know what they look like but thats as far as my knowledge goes for that breed. Why what do you think about them?


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

http://www.akc.org/breeds/beauceron/

That's about as much as I know about them right now. What I read on the website. I just thought they looked similiar to a dobie and a rottie.


----------



## RonE (Feb 3, 2007)

Somewhere, at some level,you probably know what kind of dog you want.

When we were looking for our first dog as a family, we used some software and answered all the questions. The top dog kept coming up as English Bulldog. No offense to English bulldog owners, but I didn't want one, so we kept fudging the answers until it came up lab.

Then we just waited for a lab in need of a new start to appear. 

We did no research and took no tests when we adopted Esther. 30 minutes before I signed the preliminary adoption papers, I had not heard of a Plott hound. After we met her, I came home and did some Google searches and said, "Yes! That's what we need - a dog bred to hunt bear and boar and tennis balls."


----------



## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

Jen D said:


> Great looking Dobie, do you show him?
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like you are into pulling? What state do you live in? I love to watch them and know someone that still holds the record.


Yes we pull. We have been pulling for about 6/7 years now. Where does your friend hold the record at? for what weight class? We know a lot of pullers maybe we know them or heard about them.I live in Oregon.


----------



## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I've actually been in contact with a well known Beauce breeder for about 9 months now.

It's my next breed, whenver I decide to get another dog.

I've spoken with a few other breeders, and a girl that owns a few of them, and I've been told they aren't much easier too handle than Rotts or Dobes.

They require intense socialization as well as innovative training methods. High drive dogs (breeds) require the right personality of a handler/owner.

They are a herding breed, so they're also known to be protective.

The man I speaks with competes in FR sport and SchH with his dogs, and they excell. Right there that says they aren't a first owner dog for someone just learning along the way.

They're intense and I'm sure if comparing a Lab to a Beauce, the Beauce would be the more "difficult" dog to train. (With no offense to labs of course)


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

workingdog said:


> Yes we pull. We have been pulling for about 6/7 years now. Where does your friend hold the record at? for what weight class? We know a lot of pullers maybe we know them or heard about them.I live in Oregon.


The dogs name is Ox and 114lb American Bulldog owned by Ron Poitras of CT. He pulled 4,400 pounds and has pulled more which was not on recored. Do you have the magazine called Bully Breed? Dog Fancy puts it out and it have alot of the Bullys in there I couldn't put the book down and got another just incase I lost one. Ox has died so he is not pulling but they have a few others one that has done it for awhile is Babe a Pit she is so cute and what a baby. You have a great looking dog I just love the color!


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Jen D said:


> The dogs name is Ox and 114lb American Bulldog owned by Ron Poitras of CT. He pulled 4,400 pounds


Holy crap!   4,400 lbs!! WOW!! That is amazing!!


----------



## Michele68 (May 7, 2007)

Hi I have a rottie and am partial to that breed, I would love to answer any questions I know alot about both breeds actually.
Look me up on AOL I'm usuall on during the day
BailBug68


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> Holy crap!   4,400 lbs!! WOW!! That is amazing!!


Their strong dogs, at the time I met him my dog that I had at the time was 130lbs and he wouldn't have a chance of pulling that.

They also have vidio of him pulling their full size pickup around the yard.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Wow, is there anyway I could see it. Is the video or pictures on the internet?


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Google dog pulling on the net, I went to a few pulls and it is amazing what these dogs can do. It is is also great to see if they cannot pull the weight people will push and help the dog so they think they made it. The owners go nuts and praise the dog wether they can do it or not. I did see one owner act like a jerk when his couldn't do it I felt so bad for the dog but all the other owners gave him an ear full!


----------



## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

Yeah i have seen it a few times when some one gets mad at their dog cause it couldn't pull the weight but for the most part everyone is there to have fun and are happy with what ever their dogs pull. I have a picture of our 40 pounder pulling our toyota out of the garage i'll have my husband put it into our pictures and post it later tonight.


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

workingdog said:


> Yeah i have seen it a few times when some one gets mad at their dog cause it couldn't pull the weight but for the most part everyone is there to have fun and are happy with what ever their dogs pull. I have a picture of our 40 pounder pulling our toyota out of the garage i'll have my husband put it into our pictures and post it later tonight.


I love it!! I can't wait to see the pics, that is great 40lbs pulling that weight. He looks bigger and I love his color.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

What about a Brittany? Anyone know about them? Are they good beginer dogs?


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

I don't know but I'm named after them  Just kidding I'm named after a chipmunk from Alvine and the Chipmunks. I don't know witch I consider worse. Being named after a chipmunk or a dog breed...

They're really pretty looking dogs and probably a lot easier to handle then a dobie and a rottie. That's about as far as my knowledge about them goes though.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Ok, I went and looked at all the dog breeds in my Dog breed encyclopedia and came out with 2 breeds that stuck out.

The Brittany and the Canaan Dog. I like the looks, the fact that their ok with other animals and strangers and that they dont require much brushing. The only thing that im wondering about is the excersie. I plan on at least one walk per day around the lake by my apartment (its a small lake, not for swimming). If its a weekend I might do a walk in the morning and afternoon. But my book says the Canaan dog needs lots of exercise, but then I know that this book exaggerates on some things, like the Shar Pei, I've taken care of 11 of them and I didnt need to take extra extra care to wash in between the wrinkles when giving a bath, I mean its just like washing a non-wrinkly dog.

Any thoughts on these breeds?


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> What about a Brittany? Anyone know about them? Are they good beginer dogs?


YES but need exercise! Great dogs but love to run.



sillylilykitty said:


> Ok, I went and looked at all the dog breeds in my Dog breed encyclopedia and came out with 2 breeds that stuck out.
> 
> The Brittany and the Canaan Dog. I like the looks, the fact that their ok with other animals and strangers and that they dont require much brushing. The only thing that im wondering about is the excersie. I plan on at least one walk per day around the lake by my apartment (its a small lake, not for swimming). If its a weekend I might do a walk in the morning and afternoon. But my book says the Canaan dog needs lots of exercise, but then I know that this book exaggerates on some things, like the Shar Pei, I've taken care of 11 of them and I didnt need to take extra extra care to wash in between the wrinkles when giving a bath, I mean its just like washing a non-wrinkly dog.
> 
> Any thoughts on these breeds?


Canaan dogs are tough and need alot of training, they are nice looking like you said but I think you are better off with a Brittney


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Thanks Jen! I really appreciate your thoughts on helping me. But would 1-2 walks (working up to jogging once I get in shape  ) a day be ok? And yes I definatly plan on doing obedience training either with a class or by myself, I have been to 4 obedience classes with Shar Peis. One dog I took to the advanced class (so 3 novice obedience and 1 advanced novice).


----------



## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

OK you just have to take my word for it, that he is pulling it.


----------



## sheltiemom (Mar 13, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> What about a Brittany? Anyone know about them? Are they good beginer dogs?


I think Brittanys are great. Domino is a Brittany x Boykin Spaniel (he's the dog I had for 5 years but lives with my ex now). I don't think there is anything you could do to get that dog to bite. Super friendly and cuddly and is fine with the cat. He does love to run though (and swim), and needs a moderate amount of exercise, but he's calm indoors and not hyper or anything. When he lived with me, I walked him once a day for 30 mins and he goes hiking with my ex on the weekends.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> Most dogs will attack if they know their master is in danger regardless of their size


Sorry, but that's not true. Most dogs will put on a show, and then run away. Sucks, but it's true.

As for GSDs, my GSD is my VERY first dog. It can be done, and they're very smart, loyal, and biddable, but they can also be TOUGH. They have all sorts of odd quirks and what not, and you have to treat them with respect, or they'll give you the finger.

The German Shepherd Dog works for you because it respects and loves you, but it will not pander to your feelings. He does things not because you said so, but because you've shown him that you respect him as he does you.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

I think I have decided on a Brittany!  They sound like GREAT dogs  I cant wait to go to the dog shows and see some!!


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

sillylilykitty said:


> Thanks Jen! I really appreciate your thoughts on helping me. But would 1-2 walks (working up to jogging once I get in shape  ) a day be ok? And yes I definatly plan on doing obedience training either with a class or by myself, I have been to 4 obedience classes with Shar Peis. One dog I took to the advanced class (so 3 novice obedience and 1 advanced novice).


Sound like you have some experience so go for it! They also like to retreive so trainning him to fetch also will help if you can't get enough walking in. I think you walking that much will be great seeing alot of people say they do it but don't.



workingdog said:


> OK you just have to take my word for it, that he is pulling it.


I can see the postion so I do take you rword for it! Do you know of Ron that had Ox? Looks like such a fun sport I wish I had time to do it. Jen


----------



## SFury (Apr 12, 2007)

Xeph said:


> Sorry, but that's not true. Most dogs will put on a show, and then run away. Sucks, but it's true.


Some might run away, but I know of many intruders who have been attacked by dogs. I know someone that was saved by their lab mix when an intruder broke into her quadplex and threatened her. I know of little dogs that took on intruders to no avail, but they did their best.

Dogs have more often than not stepped up to the plate and gotten physically aggressive when the time called for it in my experience. These aren't dogs that are vicious by any means. These are normally well socialized dogs that never showed aggression before, or after, their owner was truly threatened and they attacked.

If dogs didn't fight intruders then why do apartments and homes who have dogs in them have an almost 100% non-burglarization rate in my area? The police liason officer who works with the Eau Claire Are School District has the years on the force, and the numbers to back up his claim. He says that all women who live alone should have a dog. Even small yappy dogs are good protection because they are a living deterrent that people take notice of.

You are wrong.


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

SFury said:


> Some might run away, but I know of many intruders who have been attacked by dogs. I know someone that was saved by their lab mix when an intruder broke into her quadplex and threatened her. I know of little dogs that took on intruders to no avail, but they did their best.
> 
> Dogs have more often than not stepped up to the plate and gotten physically aggressive when the time called for it in my experience. These aren't dogs that are vicious by any means. These are normally well socialized dogs that never showed aggression before, or after, their owner was truly threatened and they attacked.
> 
> ...


I agree with you 100% till a dog is in a positon that they feel thretened or their owner chances are they will do something. i had one dog grab and hold a State worker that had come into my house till I got home.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I am not "wrong"

The number of dogs that run away is significantly great than the ones that engage.



> If dogs didn't fight intruders then why do apartments and homes who have dogs in them have an almost 100% non-burglarization rate in my area?


Because most people are too "wussy" (certainly not the phrase I'd truly use, but this is a family forum), to try and burglarize a house with a dog in it. They don't want the extra hassle. They want a "Wham, bam, thank ya ma'am!" kind of hit.

If somebody wakes up while the dog is barking, that's just too much trouble. If somebody is actually WILLING to continue on in a house that has a dog (or dogs) in it...I'd be more than concerned. Not only for my dog, but for the safety of my family.

It takes a lot of balls to keep on keeping on when there's 86 pounds of German Shepherd Dog throwing himself against a door. My dog is trained in protection work, and my old man dabbled in it...enough to know what "Packen" means. There's no way my 3 year old would engage any assailant.

It's all show, and dogs rely on that show to help them surivive. Back one into a corner, they're likely to fight back, but to engage of their own volition? Just not as likely.

I'm not wrong.


----------



## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

Jen D said:


> Sound like you have some experience so go for it! They also like to retreive so trainning him to fetch also will help if you can't get enough walking in. I think you walking that much will be great seeing alot of people say they do it but don't.
> 
> 
> 
> I can see the postion so I do take you rword for it! Do you know of Ron that had Ox? Looks like such a fun sport I wish I had time to do it. Jen


I asked a friend of ours(Dave of Brown creek Bulldogs) if he knew Ron and he said yes, that Ron has some good dogs.


----------



## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Dogs don't attack when their masters in danger?

Well, you need to come over to my house and explain that to Roxy!! That would solve all of our issues!

While I do agree there are a number of dogs that just put on a show, I disagree that NO dog will engage with an "assailant". Roxy, on more counts than I could count on all fingers and toes, has come inches away from attacking/mauling people that were speaking to me, talking to loud near me, too close to me or moved to touch me. No one who witnessed these events would ever state that she was putting on a show, she trully wanted to kill them, or seriously harm them.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

I don't call that protection, I call that "unstable". Sorry.

A dog shouldn't respond in that manner just because somebody reached out to touch their handler, or because somebody was speaking to them


----------



## DOBERMAN_07 (Jan 17, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I don't call that protection, I call that "unstable". Sorry.
> 
> A dog shouldn't respond in that manner just because somebody reached out to touch their handler, or because somebody was speaking to them



I dont think you are comprehending the job of a Doberman, Rottweiler, or any other protection dogs.

My dog is to protect first and ask questions later  

EDIT:  @ "unstable" comment


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

workingdog said:


> I asked a friend of ours(Dave of Brown creek Bulldogs) if he knew Ron and he said yes, that Ron has some good dogs.


Ox has died but he does have some others that are good pullers, let me know if you ever come to CT, MAss, or RI to pull.


----------



## sillylilykitty (Mar 11, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I don't call that protection, I call that "unstable". Sorry.
> 
> A dog shouldn't respond in that manner just because somebody reached out to touch their handler, or because somebody was speaking to them


I wouldnt call that unstable. Its called OVERprotective.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

Overprotective is a NICE way of saying "unstable".

ETA: An assailant is NOT somebody that is talking to somebody calmly or using normal human gestures of touching. 

An assailant is someone who is coming at you with the intent of harm.

If ANY of my dogs EVER reacted in a vicious manner towards somebody who was simply interacting with me normally, the first place we'd be off to was the behaviorist, and if behavioral modification ended up not working, the 2nd place we're going is to the vet.

There is absolutely no reason for a dog to react with the intent of harm when somebody is simply talking to their handler.


----------



## corsomom (Dec 30, 2006)

xeph, I agree with you. Lots of people think that their dog will protect them, but when it comes down to an actual threat I think most dogs will choose flight over fight. I have a rottweiler that I think would protect me, the Corsos put on a good show but an actual threat, I would not count on it. I also agree with the above, seems like an unstable dog, no offence alpha, I know how hard you work with your dogs and how responsible you are with them.


----------



## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

She's not like this anymore, she WAS like that. And no offence to Xeph, but unstable and overprotective are completely different

As explained by a behaviourist and FR sport trainer, I won't do as good of a job, an "unstable" dog, bites for no reason,(or there's no determing factor in WHY they are biting/reacting) an overprotective dog HAS a darned good reason in their mind.

Unstable means you can't predict HOW they are going to react.

Roxy was stable (predictable), I KNEW she would react, she thought she was protecting me. Do you see the difference? I didn't explain it as they explained it to me, but they are very different.

If you knew anything about the first months, close to a year of Roxy's life, you would understand. She was under socialized, (my fault, I admit, I was working a night shift and had no time to spend socializing her) and her genetics played a large role in her personality as well.

No offence Xeph, of course as usual, but you know nothing about my dog's life, and I did spend thousands of dollars with a behaviourist. If your going to make comments, maybe you should ask questions first. It's partially my fault, because I didn't explain that the above situations were from over a year ago, and since spending hours in the obedience ring, this doesn't happen anymore, so partially my fault.


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Xeph said:


> I am not "wrong"
> 
> The number of dogs that run away is significantly great than the ones that engage.
> 
> ...


It sound like you should be a trainer you seem to know everything!


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> It sound like you should be a trainer you seem to know everything!


I do help train at my kennel club. But I never stop learning. I USED to think that my dog (because of the show he would put on) would protect me if need be. Now I know better.

I have been in the position where somebody was threatening me, and my dog put on a HUGE show, but he would give ground if he could feel there was an escape exit for him. If my dog were serious, he would have thrown himself into the guy who was approaching (and it was in quite a threatening manner).

He didn't.

He barked, and he snarled, and he showed his teeth, but it was out of self preservation. I don't know WHAT would have happened if that guy had called my dog's bluff, but he decided that he didn't want to chance all those teeth ending up in his body.

My dog is a great deterrent, but he isn't protection over a bat or a gun.


----------



## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

I've already said I agreed that a large number of dogs put on a show, but I think it's wrong to generalize and say NO dog when put up to the task would protect their owner, that ALL dogs put on a show.

I consider myself lucky to have a dog that would protect me, (especially when I was living in a shady neighborhood, where even at a young age, more than once she's scared off seedy characters) and there's no doubt in my mind that she wouldn't. My big mean pitbull on the other hand... LOL


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> but I think it's wrong to generalize and say NO dog when put up to the task would protect their owner, that ALL dogs put on a show.


But I didn't say no dog. I said MOST. MOST dogs is not NO dog.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Alpha, I'm curious where you get your information? Do you compete in shutzhund or FR? I know Xeph is working on... SchH1, I think? with her shepherd. I've toyed with the idea of doing it with my corgi (stop laughing, he's a drivey little dog, and there have actually been 5 corgis who have gotten a Schutzhund 1, albiet all Pembrokes, I belive.) That said, I'm not sure I will- some parts of the obedience routine would be very tough on him physically (since the jump height and wall aren't- and shouldn't be- adjusted) and he's approaching middle age.


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Dogstare I would love to hear how you make out with the Corgi if you do it! My mother has one and I think he would be great at it!

I also would like to say that I being part of a rescue for Bullybreeds think that it is a natural thing for most of them. So in the contract we have that kind of training is not allowed. FOR PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO JUMP ON THIS i DID SAY MOST!


----------



## workingdog (Oct 19, 2006)

I can say for sure that my pits would not turn and run.Anyone can come in our yard or home and take anything they want BUT lay a hand on us and you will have a pit in your face.I'm speaking for my dogs not others.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

See, my experience as a trainer is that human aggression and guarding is EXTREMELY unnatural for the vast majority of pits. American Bulldogs? Sure! Mastiff x pit types? Definately. But pit bulls, in and of themselves, are so hardwired against human aggression that it's not a very natural behavior compared to a dog that is MEANT to be human aggressive and guardy like a shepherd or even a dalmatian.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> I know Xeph is working on... SchH1, I think? with her shepherd.


Yeah. Going for the BH this summer. Money has dictated that I train for the BH on my own for now (things are tight and it's a 3.5 hour drive *one way* to my club...it stinks, because I love it out there), but I'm still getting help from people where I can.

That moving sit is a ruddy blighter, I can tell you that, LOL!

There is a woman in my club with a LOVELY love bug of a pit named Lola.

She's given up on bitework with Lola and is going to pursue the obedience and tracking titles with her, as well as pursue AKC agility. Why won't Lola do bitework?

She's too damn friendly! LOL!

By the way Dogstar, I believe there's a Pembie with a SchH III


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

Dogstar said:


> See, my experience as a trainer is that human aggression and guarding is EXTREMELY unnatural for the vast majority of pits. American Bulldogs? Sure! Mastiff x pit types? Definately. But pit bulls, in and of themselves, are so hardwired against human aggression that it's not a very natural behavior compared to a dog that is MEANT to be human aggressive and guardy like a shepherd or even a dalmatian.


What do you mean by Pit bulls are so hardwired against human aggression? My AB's like others are known to grab and hold which I have had done in my house. I came home to find a person in my house with my AB holding them till I got home. Mastiffs are also known to do this, and as far as all the shepards I have worked with they have been trained to be human aggressive. They were also trained for certain cues to attack not just on there own because they were human aggressive.


----------



## xoxluvablexox (Apr 10, 2007)

Pits were killed for being human aggressive and only the pits that were very human friendly but very dog aggressive were bred. Maybe things are different now but I don't think pits were ever meant to be human aggressive at all.


----------



## Jen D (Apr 23, 2007)

xoxluvablexox said:


> Pits were killed for being human aggressive and only the pits that were very human friendly but very dog aggressive were bred. Maybe things are different now but I don't think pits were ever meant to be human aggressive at all.


Your right Pits wern't bred to be human aggressive, they were bred for dog fighting, bull baiting, and pulling. They are trained like any other dog to do certain jobs but unfortunately alot of them are illegal jobs so it gives them a bad name. If a police dog who is trained kills someone in the line of duty they are concidered a hero, but if a Pit does the same protecting a stash of drugs they get killed. It is sad that alot of these dogs end up in the wrong hands!



Xeph said:


> I do help train at my kennel club. But I never stop learning. I USED to think that my dog (because of the show he would put on) would protect me if need be. Now I know better.
> 
> I have been in the position where somebody was threatening me, and my dog put on a HUGE show, but he would give ground if he could feel there was an escape exit for him. If my dog were serious, he would have thrown himself into the guy who was approaching (and it was in quite a threatening manner).
> 
> ...


The saying goes flight or fight, I don't know what kind of dog you have but it sounds to me that if that person didn't back down they would of been bit. I also don't think that any dog or person has a chance against a gun depending on the gun size. A bat I think I would still put my money down on my dog but would never want to see it in that situation.


----------



## Dogstar (May 11, 2007)

Jen D said:


> What do you mean by Pit bulls are so hardwired against human aggression? My AB's like others are known to grab and hold which I have had done in my house. I came home to find a person in my house with my AB holding them till I got home. Mastiffs are also known to do this, and as far as all the shepards I have worked with they have been trained to be human aggressive. They were also trained for certain cues to attack not just on there own because they were human aggressive.


Jenn, see, that's what I'm saying. A pit is not an American Bulldog, from what I've always been told. Same heritage, but significant split a long way back. And mastiffs are DEFINATELY not pits!

HA was probably not the best term to use. Guardy is probably more accurate but also more imprecise.


----------



## Alpha (Aug 24, 2006)

Dogstar- Why are you so curious? I don't think I posted anything trully about either sport because I haven't decided which one I want to focus on. I guess I have to repeat yet again, that we're working solely on some cue words and control. Both of which are required for both sports, from what I understand ring sports require a LOT more aggression and intensity, but that's not what we're working on right now. The trainer I'm speaking with is more involved with ring sports but also competes in SchH. With the upped drives and aggression in ring sports he finds SchH to be less intense work.

What does training for SchHI title have to do with an opinion saying most dogs would high tail it if able to instead of protecting their owner?

If that's what your implying, I guess I don't see any relevance to the two statements rung together. I could be completely dog ignorant and be right in saying that MY dog WOULD protect me. 

To me, they are just SPORTS. When it's come down to it, in REAL life, not set up excercises, my dog has shown NO desire to high tail it in many shady situations. It's a sport and it's for fun, training in those sports doesn't make anyone an expert for my dog.


----------



## Xeph (May 7, 2007)

> The saying goes flight or fight, I don't know what kind of dog you have but it sounds to me that if that person didn't back down they would of been bit.


Yeah, I have German Shepherd Dogs...if Strauss meant it, he would have done it, and not backed off as he did.

http://www.fluffyrat.net/wildfyre/StraussBite.gif <--Strauss doing bite work


----------

