# Help with 101 things to do with a box



## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

I am trying to clicker train Pumbaa. She is a smart little devil and so eager to _do something do something do something_ all the time; I think she is a perfect clicker-training candidate. I also think I'm working against some more traditional training methods and I'm having trouble getting past them.

Pumbaa was part of a program at the shelter in which she was trained sit and down using your basic lure and reward system. That's cool...she know sit and down pretty gosh darned well! But damned if I can get her to offer much in the way of behaviors.

I've tried 101 things to do with a box a couple of times now, but the second I bring out the clicker and the treat bags, she's 100% focused _on me_. I mean sitting at my feet staring holes through my corneas kind of focused. I've been able to get her to go over to the box, sniff at it, and once or twice put a foot in it, but she quickly gets tired of the "game" and comes back to her seat near my feet, waiting for me to tell her what to do. 

Does this sound right for a dog that is brand new to clicker training? Should I just keep the sessions with the box super short? Could my box be the problem? It's 9" by 11.5", which she could easily stand in or even curl up in a tiny ball and sleep in, but it's only 3" deep. Could it be that she isn't investigating further (ie putting her feet or her whole body in the box) because she can already see the whole thing just by glancing at it?

Help, help, help!


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

I have to tell you, I don't like starting off with the box game. In fact, I think for a green clicker dog it can actually be stressful because the "rules" of the game are click for anything and this can be confusing. I know alot of trainers who don't recommend this game at all.

It also doesn't give the trainer any real experience in raising criteria etc.

I would instead start off shaping using the box simply as a target..start out only doing nose touch for example, get lots of reps in then look for a harder nose touch and a push etc...

Or just work on shaping something that the dog can do easily, like push a door closed etc. 

Basic exercises in the beginning: nose target, paw target, hand target, shaping a play bow, shaping a retrieve etc.

There are lots of great articles, exercises and tips at www.clickersolutions.com


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## Nil (Oct 25, 2007)

My dog was more finding out how to get the treat, I think she could care less about me. But, she does get frustrated sometimes and just sits in front of me and waits for me to tell her. I noticed that if I do tell her she is more than able to figure it out. If I ignore her, she paws my legs, barks, looks around, whines, etc. What I found is that I need to reward very quickly for her to stay near the box (or whatever we are working with) and interact with it. 

So, I get clicker and treats. I get box and put on floor. The moment I do this I usually see her come over to sniff or look at box, click! I feed the food on the box, sometimes. She looks at me and sits down. I stand up and move to other side of box, she follows and looks at box passing by, click for looking! It kind of goes on like this for a little while but once she understands I'm clicking for looking at the box she'll start offering more things. 

So I guess I kinda cheat because I physically move around the box, granted I'm not saying anything, but yea. I'm sure other people have more helpful advice!

Edit: That's interesting Cracker. I haven't ever thought of it as being tough for a green dog but it makes sense. I always found it kind of frustrating for me (I would forget what my goal was!).


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I agree 100% with Cracker's thoughts.

Trying the box game with Wally literally sent him into a panic attack (for a different reason, he didn't know what else to do so he freaked himself out sitting there shaking/trembling/looking like he was literally going to fall apart, panting, even a few drops of pee). The "wait until told what to do" as KP describes it, was firm in his mind, and the THOUGHT of acting on his own was evidently unheard of in his "past life", and now, I was REQUIRING him just to do it out of the blue? 

Yeah...no not happening. I got a behavior alright. Meltdown 

I was all excited - found this game was all ready to get him thinking creatively, and then to see that happen - wow talk about reality in the face.

Doing more of that Cracker suggested instead not only helped his confidence, it actually gave him more behaviors to try on the box. Perhaps for dogs who just try stuff it works well. Wally's the kind of dog that I guess needed to either learn how to do simple stuff like pawing things, or had to be shown that it's okay to actually do those things.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Also agree with Cracker. 



FilleBelle said:


> I've tried 101 things to do with a box a couple of times now, but the second I bring out the clicker and the treat bags, she's 100% focused _on me_. I mean sitting at my feet staring holes through my corneas kind of focused. I've been able to get her to go over to the box, sniff at it, and once or twice put a foot in it, but she quickly gets tired of the "game" and comes back to her seat near my feet, waiting for me to tell her what to do.


Question: ... ie throughout the course of an average day or even during your recent attempts with the box .... in relation to yourself, WHERE are you typically paying the dog ???

Since you say that the dog is sharply focused while AT YOUR FEET ... it sounds to me in that, in part, the dog needs to learn to get off of you and/or work away from you.

If this is the case, then perhaps start by clicking and tossing treats very close to the target, and gradually work towards tossing them further and further away. Also, gradually increase the distance between yourself and the target.




> Pumbaa was part of a program at the shelter in which she was trained sit and down using your basic lure and reward system. That's cool...she know sit and down pretty gosh darned well! But damned if I can get her to offer much in the way of behaviors.



Have you tried capturing any spontaneous behaviours ? Dogs usually offer some really cool ones that often go unnoticed. Look closely ..


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## Cracker (May 25, 2009)

That's a good point Pet Peeve. I almost always toss the treat somewhere else than reward from my hand. When shaping Cracker to go in her crate (which she was hesitant to enter) I tossed the treat AWAY from the crate, so not only could she relieve the 'pressure' of the crate but it would set her up to approach it again from a safe (from her perspective) distance...once she was going in on her own and LOOKING at me for the click I started rewarding in position (in the crate itself).

In the beginning if I wanted to target an item I would FIRST put the food as a lure ON the target for one or two reps, just so she would look at it and I could click while she was retrieving the reward. This helped a lot as she didn't understand the game was about the target itself. That soon changed and now I can put an object down on the floor and she will immediately go check it out to start the game.


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## KBLover (Sep 9, 2008)

I'm starting to wonder what kind of dog would actually do well with this game as an intro to clicker training?

If a "crossover" dog doesn't always do well, or a insecure dog, or a shy dog, or a fearful dog what does that leave? A "blank" puppy (a dog not exposed to any "real" training? Very bold dogs? 

Seems like the very dogs that would excel/thrive, if not require, mostly R+ techinques and more free-form type learning don't do well with this game.


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## FilleBelle (Aug 1, 2007)

Cracker said:


> I would instead start off shaping using the box simply as a target..start out only doing nose touch for example, get lots of reps in then look for a harder nose touch and a push etc...www.clickersolutions.com


Hm, maybe I have misunderstood the game because I was under the impression that this _was _the purpose. I thought you were supposed to watch what the dog was doing naturally and shape first one and then another and another of those behaviors. I had a vague idea that I was going to eventually get her _in _the box, so I started with clicking for getting near the box. When it seemed like she got that being the near the box was good, I stopped clicking for that and started clicking for looking in the box (ie putting her head down in it). When it seemed like she got that putting her head into the box was a good idea, I stopped clicking for that and started clicking for a foot in the box. I can't seem to get any further than that. She has never even attempted to put two feet into the box, let alone get all the way in it.

I have captured some spontaneous behaviors; she has a couple of tricks under her belt thanks to spontaneous capture and her loose leash walking and "watch me" behaviors are a result of the same. Unfortunately, this where "user-error" comes into play. Right at this moment in my life, I am extra busy. I work full time during the day and go to graduate school full time in the evening. The dogs still get their playtime and their regular walks and all that good stuff, but I don't really have the time to spend just sitting around watching Pumbaa for interesting spontaneous behaviors. If I'm not actively walking or playing with a dog, I am most likely typing a paper at the computer, reading course materials while I eat my dinner, or sleeping, all of which preclude clicking and treating Pumbaa when she does something I like. Of course, she's not usually doing anything at all during these times. If I settle down at the desk to write a paper, she generally settles down in her bed for a nap. Not much to click and treat when the dog is asleep. That's why I brough out the box. I was hoping that her natural curiousity would stimulate something interesting, but she is most interested in ME and what I might be about to do or about to ask her to do. She is very intense in her focus.

When I've tried using the box, I generally throw her reward out at her or even sometimes into the box (in hopes of getting a different behavior from her as she goes for the treat). If she is working far from me (distance sits, for example), then I throw the treat out to her. If she is working close to me (the "say please" or beg command, for example), then I hand her the treat. She will work away from me perfectly well _if asked_, but she continues to be extremely single minded in her focus on me, rather than her surroundings. 

I think the problem is two-fold: 1) An extremely intelligent dog who has never been encouraged to be creative and therefore believes that the best way to demonstrate her intelligence is to anticipate and obey my every whim and 2) a handler who herself isn't all that creative and therefore struggles to bring creativity out in others, even dogs. Shaping a retrieve, for example, is difficult for me because I have not yet witnessed Pumbaa pick up anything but a food product in her mouth. I can't click and treat for taking the ball or the stuffie because she won't pick up a ball or a stuffie. Now, we _have _been working on "take it" and "drop it" with larger edibles like bones, but I don't think we're at the point yet where she gets the commands well enough to "take" something else. I just have to keep forging ahead on this path, though, because I don't really know what else to try. I can't MAKE her pick up a ball and I'm not sure how else to encourage the idea.

I think a target stick might be my best bet at this point. A target stick was actually what I wanted to start with, but Christmas presents and vacation hit me hard and even an unfinished dowel from the craft store cost more money than I had. Now that I'm financially back up on my feet, I can probably afford to buy a stick, lol.

Thanks for the link, Cracker. I've already looked at a couple of articles and I can see that they are definitely going to help me out.


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## Pawzk9 (Jan 3, 2011)

FilleBelle said:


> I am trying to clicker train Pumbaa. She is a smart little devil and so eager to _do something do something do something_ all the time; I think she is a perfect clicker-training candidate. I also think I'm working against some more traditional training methods and I'm having trouble getting past them.
> 
> Pumbaa was part of a program at the shelter in which she was trained sit and down using your basic lure and reward system. That's cool...she know sit and down pretty gosh darned well! But damned if I can get her to offer much in the way of behaviors.
> 
> ...


It's sounds pretty normal for a newbie dog - especially one who is used to humans giving her instructions on what to do. Have you worked "food zen" with her (which will teach her not to be quite so focussed on the food?) Does she understand how to target? I think "101 things to do with a box" is actually a 301 level (more advanced) game for dogs who really understand the clicker game, and how to shape. If you want to do it, keep sessions short, work on YOUR ability to see really teeny tiny clickable moments (I suspect you are looking for behaviors that are too big or obvious) and don't hand her treats. Stay still (seated) and neutral, and toss your treats to the area you want your dog to be interested in, instead of having her come get them from you. I would start with 20 treats. When they are gone, you are done.


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