# Thoughts on Prong Collars



## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

I'm trying to walk Kane and Pepper at the same time, but honestly it's quite challenging. They both "know" loose leash walking but without treats to reinforce her, Pepper will be constantly switching between stopping to sniff everything she sees and pulling to get ahead to the next thing that she can stop and sniff.

Kane on his own is a joy to walk, Pepper on her own has to be constantly managed (with treats). When walking them together, I don't have a free hand for treats and can't give Pepper the attention that's required for her to walk nicely.

Someone suggested a prong collar for Pepper. My initial thought was "no way", but I like to have an open mind and I'm sure if used properly and fitted properly they can be a useful tool. I don't really like the idea of it and I don't like that some people will think I'm being cruel to my dog though.

I'm only even considering it because the two of them outweigh me and I'm having trouble just walking them together. If they decide to run after something, I'll be in trouble.

Thoughts?


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

Prongs have been debated about 6 ways from Sunday so there are plenty of opinions available to search here .....

My opinion is they are a tool which can be used well for some dogs and people and badly for others. They can be abused but so can nearly any device. I would rather see an adult dog getting good and safe exercise on a prong collar than not being walked or being walked in a manner dangerous to the human or other people/dogs (lack of control, dog choking himself badly on flat collar).

However, I think they should be paired with plenty of training to reduce the need for them and shouldn't be used on puppies or fearful dogs and not used to "correct" aggression or reactivity. If i were starting a dog out as a puppy, I would go heavy on the leash training from the beginning to avoid bad habits as much as possible, its sometimes different starting with a full grown large dog with bad habits in place.

I have tried a variety of no-pull harnesses on different dogs, some take well to them and some find them far more aversive than a prong. Some dogs I have safely taught to walk loose leash on a plain harness right from the start. Some transitioned from the prong to a plain harness.


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

I use it for my 110 lb dog (if he sees a squirrel all bets are off)/ but not for my 140 lb boy hes so big that doesn't work for him/ would not be useful...


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I posted my comments about me using prong collars in your other thread.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

9/10 i will never recommend them. that 1/10 is only when someone old/handicapped is dealing with a large adult dog that outweighs them which would otherwise wind up surrendered and possibly put down, and even then i'm weary and will exhaust other options first. 
IMPO walking 2 large dogs at the same time that are anything less than very well trained is a recipe for chaos. a dog with lots of energy and a high prey drive (or really any dog for that matter) have a great likelihood to become reactive after a while of using a prong. i won't rant about them being medieval torture devices or anything like some people, i'll just tell you that from my experience of training over 500 dogs of all ages and breeds, that there is almost always a better solution and often the end result is worse than the initial problem.

It is very natural for a dog to want to pull and sniff and adding corrective device into the mixture is likely to confuse and frustrate the dog. while you and i know that the correction would occur due to the pulling on leash, your dog may interpret it as "Oh look! another dog! I wanna say hi! OUCH MY NECK! why did that dog do that to me?" "Oh look a kid! i love kids! OUCH MY NECK! why did that kid do that to me?" etc etc. After a bunch of times your dog will build up a negative association with certain situations and triggers and can become reactive/aggressive towards them which is a lot worse than just pulling on the leash. I'm not saying this happens 100% of the time, but you don't have any way of knowing how you're dog will rationalize it and react over time.

here is my advice:
if possible, just walk your dogs separately, continuing to train with them while you do. over time, introduce walking together gradually.
if thats not possible, hire a professional positive reinforcement trainer for a few sessions to help.
if that's not possible, try a front clipping harness just as the EZ Walk harness or Freedom No-pull harness. The leash attaches to a ring in the front which puts physics on your side and prevents your dog from overpowering you without causing them any discomfort. this will not train your dog, or even necessarily stop them from TRYING to pull, but it will prevent you from getting injured. note that a prong collar will not train them either though. make sure you fit these harnesses properly as they can sometime cause irritation under the armpits of shorthaired dogs if they are not adjusted properly.

and all that being said, if you do decide to use a prong collar, use one with smaller sized prongs (adding additional links to size, rather than just bigger links). have someone properly fit it for you and never "pop correct" the dog. your dog should be in complete control of any correction received. if he pulls, the collar tightens, if he heels, the tension releases. you should not be yanking on it yourself.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

I walk my son's dog on a prong. She is high drive and pulls very hard. I tried no-pull harnesses on her...she can pull just as hard she just does it sideways. I did not get her as a puppy, if I had I might have been able to train her to walk nicely on a leash before she was so strong. As it is she is an adult who despite being medium sized has a good bit of power behind her and a lot of drive to go. I also have balance/coordination issues that makes walking her dangerous for both of us if she pulls me like that (I fell just walking Lad down the street a couple of weeks ago, nothing happened I just fell, luckily he sticks with me). On the prong she walks nicely by my side, she still gets excited when she sees other dogs, people and small animals but she doesn't pull. It has made our walks far more pleasant (and safer). Hubby still takes her out on a harness and if I am taking her to play with the kids at the playground I take her on her harness so she can run, jump and climb freely (I have my oldest son for back up). I hope with time and training she can get better under control but I don't mind using the prong, she doesn't seem to be bothered by it.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

> I would rather see an adult dog getting good and safe exercise on a prong collar than not being walked or being walked in a manner dangerous to the human or other people/dogs (lack of control, dog choking himself badly on flat collar).


 This is my thought process exactly!



> However, I think they should be paired with plenty of training to reduce the need for them and shouldn't be used on puppies or fearful dogs and not used to "correct" aggression or reactivity. If i were starting a dog out as a puppy, I would go heavy on the leash training from the beginning to avoid bad habits as much as possible, its sometimes different starting with a full grown large dog with bad habits in place.


 Yes I agree, I don't think it would be useful or effective for Kane. But we've practiced LLW on Pepper since she was a puppy and it's always been a struggle. She's good if I can focus on her and keep her attention, but I can't do that with both dogs. She's not reactive or aggressive at all, just excited 



> I posted my comments about me using prong collars in your other thread.


 Yes, thank you 



> while you and i know that the correction would occur due to the pulling on leash, your dog may interpret it as "Oh look! another dog! I wanna say hi! OUCH MY NECK! why did that dog do that to me?" "Oh look a kid! i love kids! OUCH MY NECK! why did that kid do that to me?" etc etc. After a bunch of times your dog will build up a negative association with certain situations and triggers and can become reactive/aggressive towards them which is a lot worse than just pulling on the leash. I'm not saying this happens 100% of the time, but you don't have any way of knowing how you're dog will rationalize it and react over time.


 This is an interesting way of looking at it. I would hope fade it out once I have the walking together figured out. And it would only be in the morning before work when I'm alone but they need exercise. They do run around and play, but I feel like more structure is needed to our routine.

I should mention that I walk Pepper on a harness and Kane just on his collar. Pepper's harness is not a no-pull one though, just a normal one that gives me more control over a flat collar.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

I strongly dislike them, but then again I've not yet had a dog I couldn't teach to walk reliably nicely on a leash. So it's easy for me to be like "ugh, why would someone even do that." Like, I used to think baby leashes were lazy stupid parenting, then karma gave me a sprinting ninja toddler, and I had to eat my words. I leashed the heck out of that baby.

Personally I'd try a harness or something first, just on the basis that they're harder to screw up.

eta: on the dog, not the baby. Although I guess on a baby, too.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

If you have a big, strong dog (or two!) who doesn't yet have a polished LLW I think they can be a useful management tool. I used one for Squash when he was an adolescent, and lately I've been using one on and off with Toast as he goes through the throes of adolescence, too. I don't use it for corrections, but neither one of them would/will pull against it. 

Neither one of them is soft in any way, though. I wouldn't use one on a really soft dog.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

I think prongs are over-used, and are way too-often the "go-to" solution for a dog that pulls. On the other hand, I also think there are times when they make sense, and I also think they can be used humanely.

I kind of have an issue when people say all prongs are bad, but front-clip harness are okay. They are both aversive by design. Some dogs don't even notice a prong collar and some dogs totally shut down in an easywalker. If anyone is going to successfully and humanely use _any_ aversive, it has to be appropriate for the problem and the dog. The only way to know how it will work for your dog is to try it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have one, and I use one. I originally started during winter, because my dog would unpredictably LUNGE and I have 3 flights of stairs to get down from my house to the street that were frequently slick. He was also 120lbs and I was, frankly, going to die - or he was, or he was going to cause a wreck. Not even kidding - it was flat out dangerous as heck, to everyone involved.

I prefer them to head halters and regular choke/unlimited slip collars by a lot, and SOMETIMES find them preferable to no pull harnesses - all of which work by making pulling of aversive for the dog, and the head halters and choke collars are just flat out DANGEROUS, IMO, for any dog that is a dedicated puller. For my dog the no pull harnesses did not work - because he lunged, and it would just yank him around in a way I was uncomfortable with. The head hater was a total no starter because he found it hugely aversive and I worried about his neck. The choke chain was an absolute no starter because they actually do choke the dog - at least prongs just pinch and can't put that kind of pressure on the dog's neck. So, yeah, prong.

THe dog, however, knew danged well how to walk properly at loose leash, he'd just periodically lunge violently after something like a butterfly or bunny. The prong kept him from being able to pull that hard. So I used it and kept training. I *still* use it, though, because this is a dog who still once in a rare blue moon goes bonky and in doing so has broken a couple of collars. I do not want him suddenly becoming unleashed while walking near streets - ever, at all. These days, though, it's a back up thing. His leash is hooked to the regular collar and to the prong. If the regular collar is intact, it won't engage. 

I won't recommend them in a situation where someone is going to give corrections with them - ie: I want one and will correct my dog with the leash attached to the prong for not sitting, or whatever. I won't recommend them for anyone with a puppy. I won't recommend them for anyone with a small dog. I wont' recommend them to anyone who is having basic leash walking trouble (ie: steady pulling) and hasn't tried a no-pull harness. I won't recommend them to anyone who isn't going to KEEP TRAINING to teach the dog what to do with positive methods and is relying on the prong to do all the teaching via aversive/letting the dog 'self-correct' on the prong. I absolutely will not recommend them for a soft dog.

But I think they're a useful tool, and I certainly don't think they're the devil.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

^Yea that's my main issue with Toast right now. Not so much the walking, because he is really stellar at it. But periodically he lunges at something and periodically he feels the need to yell at a stranger.


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## hookilau (Jun 10, 2015)

I've never had success with them.

I've tried, but for me, nothing works better than a well fitted slip collar & going back to basic rules of teaching LLW.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

I bought one once. I don't know where it is and it is probably rusty by now if I did find it. I think as a trainer and to give advice one should use it to see for themselves how the darn things really work. I find dogs are more accepting to that than a head halter or even an easy walk harness. I also hear quite commonly the owners who think the device looks like a torture thing. Once they have tried one on a pulling dog, the attitudes have changed. I would much rather see a dog get walked than to not get walked. I am sure that you would not be abusive to the dog while the dog was wearing the training device. And that is what prong collars are for training. I have seen dogs move from one of the prong collars to a flat collar for walks and continue to do a LLW. There are so many training advices out on the market and each one can cause a dog harm. I have seen dog's armpits rub raw from the no-pull harnesses. Dog's noses with deep indentations from a head halter. 

My own take:
sometimes hard to put on
I prefer the ones without the easy clip on I find some of the easy clip on ones malfunctions and the collar falls apart equals loose dog
I like the smaller links
i think too many dogs are going around with a prong too big on them this is causing the collar not to work right
correct fitting is a big thing
only to be used while you are with the dog and either walking the dog or training the dog
should NOT be used as a everyday collar and left on the dog 24/7


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

Five months ago I adopted a 2 and 1/2 year old AmStaff Terrier. She has been walked using a harness and pulls like a freight train. Admittedly, I'm no dog trainer but I do know when to give her "corrections" to let her know that pulling is not a wanted behavior. I might as well tell a brick wall to move over. Never having researched or educated myself on the prong collar, I have never liked them simply due to their looks. I recently did a fair amount of research on them and realized that when fitted properly and used correctly, they are a good training tool. You don't want to get just any prong collar either. The ones you get from Petsmart, PetCo, Care-a-lot, etc. probably aren't what you want. The Herm Sprenger is made in Germany, not outrageously over priced, and most importantly, the "prongs" are rounded. I've taken her for two walks since receiving the collar and the results have been nothing short of amazing. You would think she had spent a week with Cesar Milan. During those two walks, she has stayed right by my side. There is "no" jerking or snapping of the leash/collar by me. When she starts to pull ahead or head off to the side, there is a slight pull on the leash and she resumes walking right along side of me. As a safety measure, just in case she goes "berserk" on me and the collar were to fail, I also have her harness on and another leash attached to that. I realize that this is still in the early stages but the initial results have been unbelievable.


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## NicoleIsStoked (Aug 31, 2012)

dmichaelc said:


> You would think she had spent a week with Cesar Milan.


Exactly what you shouldn't want lol


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

NicoleIsStoked said:


> Exactly what you shouldn't want lol


I realize that everyone has their own thoughts and opinions in regard to different dog trainers. IMHO, Milan is one of the best, if not "the" best.


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## gingerkid (Jul 11, 2012)

dmichaelc said:


> I realize that everyone has their own thoughts and opinions in regard to different dog trainers. IMHO, Milan is one of the best, if not "the" best.


I could write a list a mile long about why Cesar Milan may be the worst thing to happen to dogs in recent history, but I'm interested to hear why you consider him to be The Best Dog Trainer?


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

gingerkid said:


> I could write a list a mile long about why Cesar Milan may be the worst thing to happen to dogs in recent history, but I'm interested to hear why you consider him to be The Best Dog Trainer?


First off, let me say that my opinion has only been formed by what I have seen on the NatGeo channel. Who can watch "The Dog Whisperer", or "Cesar, 911" without saying this guy really knows dogs and how to train them? I haven't researched Cesar nor have I looked for criticisms of his methods. Nothing I have seen him do or read about would lead me to think that Milan is abusive or cruel in any of his methods. Another trainer that I have seen with completely opposite methods that I highly respect is Victoria Stillwell. Granted, my opinions have been formed only by what I have seen on TV and not by any in depth research but having their own programs on respectable channels broadcast nationally leads me believe that they are reputable and have "some kind of idea" what they are doing.

Now, what has led you to come to your opinion of him? It doesn't have to be a mile long, just a summary.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Heh, yeah, let's just say TV shows are highly edited to make the trainer look good, and to make things look exciting. Good dog training is actually really boring and nobody would want to watch it . I'll let others deal with the actual reasons Cesar ain't so hot. It's time consuming to post a ton of links from a phone.

And hey, did you use my signature or is my phone acting up? I mean, I'm sure there's no rule against duplicating a signature but it confused me because I thought I was reading one of my own posts, LOL.


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## sydneynicole (Apr 2, 2015)

If you have only formed your opinion based on tv, with no research involved, I wouldn't go around calling anyone (especially Millan..) the best dog trainer. Especially in a forum full of dog lovers and trainers. Just saying. I'll sit back with the popcorn while people explain why they hate Millan lol.

To put it briefly since you don't seem to have an interest in learning about him, he practices what I and some other people would classify as dog abuse. He uses dominance, not teaching. He believes that dogs function like a wolf pack would and forces them to 'submit' to him. I've seen him on tv pinning a dog to the ground the second it finally stopped jumping in his face, while the dog peed itself with its tail between its legs. The clueless owners thought it was amazing that he could 'get control' of the dog like that and put it in its place. It's just unacceptable, but thanks to him, half of America thinks that is how you train a dog.

A quick google search will give you more info. "Why people don't like Cesar Millan" or along those lines. I much prefer Stillwell.

I don't have time to post a bunch of links but here's 2 quick videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihXq_WwiWM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY-_vpo-Ayc

Here, he teaches an owner to kick her dogs to get them to stop jumping, then pins them down one by one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ghz5jrz0Y_Y


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

dmichaelc said:


> I haven't researched Cesar nor have I looked for criticisms of his methods. Nothing I have seen him do or read about would lead me to think that Milan is abusive or cruel in any of his methods.


 Ho boy. Here's a good place to start: http://beyondcesarmillan.weebly.com/


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

Willowy said:


> Heh, yeah, let's just say TV shows are highly edited to make the trainer look good, and to make things look exciting. Good dog training is actually really boring and nobody would want to watch it .


I realize that. But I still think he's the bomb. op2:



> And hey, did you use my signature or is my phone acting up? I mean, I'm sure there's no rule against duplicating a signature but it confused me because I thought I was reading one of my own posts, LOL.


Now that's kinda funny. I've been using that since I joined here. We obviously think alike, maybe not regarding dog trainers but of animals in general. :tea:


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## BernerMax (Mar 15, 2013)

parus said:


> I strongly dislike them, but then again I've not yet had a dog I couldn't teach to walk reliably nicely on a leash. So it's easy for me to be like "ugh, why would someone even do that." Like, I used to think baby leashes were lazy stupid parenting, then karma gave me a sprinting ninja toddler, and I had to eat my words. I leashed the heck out of that baby.
> 
> Personally I'd try a harness or something first, just on the basis that they're harder to screw up.
> 
> eta: on the dog, not the baby. Although I guess on a baby, too.


your too funny Parus.
Also I did try a easy walk on my 140 dog/ terrible/ I hate restricting gait like that.
For me a Choke or Prong actually is kinder than hobbling the poor dog.
Or even the head collar (we used the one that wasn't the Halti)...


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

It would probably just be better if we went.........:focus:


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

BernerMax said:


> your too funny Parus.
> Also I did try a easy walk on my 140 dog/ terrible/ I hate restricting gait like that.
> For me a Choke or Prong actually is kinder than hobbling the poor dog.
> Or even the head collar (we used the one that wasn't the Halti)...


Yes I am not a fan of the Easy Walk harness, it really messes up the way a dog walks even if they aren't pulling. It isn't good for their shoulders at all and I can imagine long term use (particularly on a developing puppy) could lead to damage of developing joints. I have had poor results with halters, they don't work on short snouted dogs so Magic couldn't use one at all (short snouted plus she had surgery for cherry eye, not worth the risk). Remus, who was not a soft dog at all, found them very aversive. I could walk him more easily with one (though he was trained to walk nicely on leash he was very reactive and would lunge and snap at people, other dogs, bikes, ect) I could not train him in one because he was completely shut down as long as it was on. I tried it out with Hobs, just to walk him in stimulating environments (he was also well trained to LLW and would walk nicely by my side without a leash but liked to sniff and greet people at big events) but he also found it highly aversive even after conditioning. It may be the gentle leader is just particularly uncomfortable. If I should need something with Lad I will consider a halter but not the gentle leader (which is what I have used) I don't like the way it fits. I hear good things about a goat halter for large breeds.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

dmichaelc said:


> I realize that. But I still think he's the bomb. op2:


But why? Besides "he's on TV"? I mean, after seeing some videos of him kicking and pinning dogs I wonder why anyone who thinks being kind to animals is right would continue liking him. . .

Basically, his main goal is to get a dog to shut down so they no longer offer any behaviors, bad or good. They just. . .exist. A lot of people consider a shut-down dog to be "well-trained". But there are a lot of ways to train a dog without making them shut down.

Anyhoo, on the original subject: I was "tricked" into using a prong for Penny at her training class. They had nothing but praise for prongs. I bought their line because I didn't know any better. I should have gotten a clue when they told me to keep jerking it harder and harder when Penny was hitting the end of it and yelping, "to teach her to snop snivelling". No empathy at all from them. I very much object to that kind of use now that I know better. 

I also used it as "power steering" when Moose was young and powerful. I never jerked on it or anything, just let him walk naturally and he decided he didn't want to pull too hard on it. I'm kind of OK with that kind of use, although I'll first try other alternatives with future dogs.


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## titiaamor (Nov 17, 2011)

dmichaelc said:


> I realize that everyone has their own thoughts and opinions in regard to different dog trainers. IMHO, Milan is one of the best, if not "the" best.


How many dog trainers have you actually seen in action?


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

dmichaelc said:


> IMHO, Milan is one of the best, if not "the" best.


Before you seriously have this opinion, and act on that opinion in your training philosophies that you apply to training your dog.....there is something you have to consider....



dmichaelc said:


> my opinions have been formed only by what I have seen on TV and not by any in depth research.


this can be a problem.....

Rather than tell you that CM is a horrible dog trainer (I don't like him, he has his moments, but overall he can be dangerous....), I will urge you to consider other dog trainers that are NOT on TV, trainers that spend more time working their dogs than recording TV shows. Also consider that the dogs on the TV shows are often being "rehabilitated" (badly IMO, but I won't go there), rehabilitation is much different than actual training. 

Please have a look at trainers like Mike Ellis, Kikopup/Emily Larlham, Ian Dunbar, Sofia Yin.........(folks chime in here.......give some more....). I'm using these examples because there is a varying opinion of prongs among them.....




dmichaelc said:


> It would probably just be better if we went.........:focus:


Make no mistake, I have no intention with this post to be off topic......I'm hoping you look up these trainers and their methods/philosophies to help you form a well rounded opinion of your own regarding prong collars and whether you need one. You've gotten some VERY excellent input on this forum, but I'm trying to give you resources of some trainers that are recognized in the "dog world" (not the mass media world....) that can help further your training and your decision on the prong.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

Willowy said:


> But why? Besides "he's on TV"? I mean, after seeing some videos of him kicking and pinning dogs I wonder why anyone who thinks being kind to animals is right would continue liking him. . .


We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. :rant:




> Anyhoo, on the original subject: I was "tricked" into using a prong for Penny at her training class. They had nothing but praise for prongs. I bought their line because I didn't know any better. I should have gotten a clue when they told me to keep jerking it harder and harder when Penny was hitting the end of it and yelping, "to teach her to snop snivelling". No empathy at all from them. I very much object to that kind of use now that I know better.


Yup! Everything I've read about the proper use of the prong collar indicates that you shouldn't yank, jerk, or snap on the leash when using it. As I mentioned in a previous post my Amstaff walked calmly beside me the two times I've used it. No jerking or yanking on the leash. If that was required I wouldn't use it. She got to where there was no more slack on the leash and when "she" initiated a slight tug, she immediately stopped and resumed walking beside me. The change is like night and day.

The true test will be when approaching a jogger or someone on a bike. I guess her prey drive is off the charts because those two situations make her turn into Cujo on steroids. You can walk past her without anything more than normal curiosity but run or bike anywhere near her and it's game on. If she continues to go insane when encountering a jogger/biker even with the prong collar on I will obviously have to discontinue it's use and eventually have to seek the guidance of an experienced dog trainer.


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

> We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.


I'd sort of like to know what we're agreeing to disagree about . Have you researched his methods and decided you agree with them? Do you have compelling arguments for why you think they're more effective and not really inhumane? I like an intelligent debate but it's hard to debate with an unknown argument.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

Greater Swiss said:


> Before you seriously have this opinion, and act on that opinion in your training philosophies that you apply to training your dog.....there is something you have to consider....
> 
> 
> this can be a problem.....
> ...


I truly appreciate your response and respect your opinion. But, I'm not going to get into a debate concerning Milan. 

I think I've exercised my due diligence relative to the prong collar. I will, however, take a look at what the trainers you have listed, say concerning it. 

Thanks for your suggestion and help.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Where did Victoria Stilwell go? I know she had a TV show and now she is no longer on the airwaves.I like watching her shows for some training tips but she did get annoying at times. Milan has moved from NatGeo to a bigger national shown channel or whatever it is called. He is still very popular. I saw his show last week. I have to say I have noticed a big change in his techniques compared to the early days of his shows. My aunt had a big crush on him. I wonder if that is what keeps him popular? At 70 years young my aunt would go on and on about his pearly white smile and his eyes. On his website (I just visited it for the first time right now) it seems he does a lot of awareness stuff. Could this be why he remains popular? I got to hand it to the guy he has remained on the air for a very long time. I do not think I have ever witnessed another dog trainer stay as popular as him. 

I will also mention that Leerburg has some good information about the proper way to use a prong collar and how to fit one. http://leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm


I will end by saying I have seen trainers why far worse than the CM. I do not find it in the dog world as much as I do in the horse world. One trained animal and the owner is now a trainer. I always think of that saying "What can two dog/horse trainers can agree on? A. How bad the third trainer is!


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

On topic (opinions of CM get boring) I've used prong collars on two dogs. One spectacular success. She pulled like a locomotive before. Two weeks of prong and she never pulled again. Prong collar went into storage. No corrections needed. No yelps. The collar seems to have conveyed the message: "Don't pull" and she listened. 
Granddaughter of the same dog (the daughter never pulled) pulls when excited (squirrel, interesting smell, deer, other dog, etc.). She continues to pull with prong collar . . . just hurts her neck. Prong collar back in storage. She's growing out of it, but progress is slow.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Apparently Ed Frawley from Leerburg has a young Shih Tzu puppy of his own. Would be interesting to see how he progresses through the training of that dog without the higher intensity collar corrections and aversive measures like he's done with GSD's for 30 some-odd years. Hopefully he'll see the true value of gentle, non-aversive, virtually pure reward-based training now, and begin to lean more that way and apply it to all breeds of dogs rather than resorting to prong collars and such. Although I'm not holding my breath on that one, lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GWWKiKfV8U


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> Apparently Ed Frawley from Leerburg has a young Shih Tzu puppy of his own. Would be interesting to see how he progresses through the training of that dog without the higher intensity collar corrections and aversive measures like he's done with GSD's for 30 some-odd years. Hopefully he'll see the true value of gentle, non-aversive, virtually pure reward-based training now, and begin to lean more that way and apply it to all breeds of dogs rather than resorting to prong collars and such. Although I'm not holding my breath on that one, lol
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GWWKiKfV8U


Ed is one of the more transformed personalities in the dog world. The last 5 years, he has really changed. If you do any digging (not suggesting this is a great use of time) you will find numerous places where he states that he regrets not being a better handler for his past dogs. He's still a "balanced" trainer, but he has been singing the praise of marker training for quite a while now. The Ed of today looks nothing like the Ed of 10 years ago and even less like the guy from 15 years ago.

I remember the old brutal advice. I know what you are referencing. But he seems to be a very changed trainer.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

> These days, though, it's a back up thing. His leash is hooked to the regular collar and to the prong. If the regular collar is intact, it won't engage.


 That's a good idea. 

Do the prong collars have a "stop" so they don't pull tight?

What do you say to people who think you're torturing your dog?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I have one and use it with Watson pretty much any time we are going somewhere exciting, or where I need more control. He can go from zero to overstimulated really fast and once he's overstimulated it can be really hard to bring him back down. Pulling into the leash just seems to make him more stimulated too which doesn't help. He doesn't pull against the prong, and the fact that he can't lunge at stuff has taught him that he can actually stop and think first.

The prong can be used in a way that it tightens, or the leash can be clipped on both rings so that it doesn't tighten. I clip it on both rings and also his collar, so the effect is minimal. I have had to connect it to the tightening ring a couple times, but very rarely. 

I have had people ask questions like "Does that hurt the dog?" And I answer honestly that it can, but I don't use it for that purpose and I use it to give me more control in crowded or stimulating environments so he can't lunge.


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## Remaru (Mar 16, 2014)

They pull tight but it is limited like a martingale. I do have it connected to the tightening ring on Magic, but I walked her today on just a martingale and she was noticeably better behaved. She did lose it at the end of the walk when she saw another dog, however the rest of the walk was pleasant so I think we may eventually be able to graduate out of the prong and into a martingale.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Jen2010 said:


> That's a good idea.
> 
> Do the prong collars have a "stop" so they don't pull tight?
> 
> What do you say to people who think you're torturing your dog?


Right, they only tighten so far. Also, there is a "dead" link that doesn't tighten at all. Usually I have my leash clipped to the dead link and his normal collar at the same time. 

I've honestly never had anyone say anything whatsoever to me about the prong collar. If someone did, if I bothered to say anything at all I'd probably give them a confused link and say "why would you think THAT?" like I thought they were real dumb. That usually shuts people up.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

No one's ever said anything to me, either. I don't know for sure how I'd respond, but it'd probably be with either a blank stare and sass's 'Why on earth would you think that?!" or an actual explanation about why I use it and how - depending on the person.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

I think I will try the prong collar on Pepper. Does anyone know of a good place in Canada to buy or order from? I want to get one with the rounded tips.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

This is something you want to go to the store for, and to get help with fitting. I don't know what's in CA, but I wouldn't do it online. Too easy to get the wrong fit. (Almost all collars have blunt or rounded tips - they're meant to pinch, not poke)


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yeah, I would even go so far as to get it at a training facility if you are taking classes. They can pick the right size and fit it correctly, even if it does cost a couple more dollars than buying online.

As far as brands, Herm Sprenger is probably the most popular.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

CptJack said:


> This is something you want to go to the store for, and to get help with fitting. I don't know what's in CA, but I wouldn't do it online. Too easy to get the wrong fit. (Almost all collars have blunt or rounded tips - they're meant to pinch, not poke)


Respectfully disagree. Unlike other collars, you can shorten a prong collar by taking out a link or two or three. So buy one that's on the large size and adjust as needed. The German made ones (Herm Springer) are good. Fitting properly is important, but you can find instructions for doing so online. You can also find many instructions, including video for using prong collars online. As usual, the authorities disagree. But if you're just wanting a dog that doesn't pull, as opposed to wanting to build a training program around the prong collar, there isn't much disagreement. (Don't pull or yank. . . let the dog control the administration of correction).
I worked with a trainer the first time I used a prong collar. It gave me confidence and dispelled my fears. If you have access to a trainer who is comfortable with a prong collar, it's a good way to get started.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

Update on use of the prong collar:

Received it and took out 2 links to give a snug but not tight fit. The collar is supposed to remain high on the neck. On the first walk for about the first 30 seconds, she tried to be the leader and pull me where "she" wanted to go. After feeling only minimal tugging, the pulling suddenly stopped. There was no pulling, yanking, or popping of the leash by me. All applied pressure and tugging were the result of "her" pulling and wanting to go where she wanted. She immediately began to walk calmly at my side. So far so good. I knew the next and most important test would be when we encountered a jogger or someone on a bike. 

About 5 minutes into our initial walk with the prong, a jogger approached. She focused intently on him, began to pull with increasing pressure as he closed the distance, and when he was about 5 yards from us, she lunged. She was intent on attacking. The prong collar obviously tightened, she reared up on her hind legs, the guttural snarling and growling quickly turned into a yelp and she looked up at me in complete surprise and astonishment. All this initiated by her. I never stopped walking and continued on with her by my side. After about 5 minutes, another jogger was approaching. The same thing happened again but the intensity had lessened. 

We encountered a third jogger on the walk and again she focused on him intently. I was ready for a third similar reaction. As he approached her excitement quickly escalated and she "pranced" in a combination of excitement and, what I think, frustration at my side. He drew close to us and she remained at my side in a very excited and frustrated state.............but she didn't lunge or try to attack. She was beginning to understand the consequences of "her" actions. I never pull, yank, or pop her leash using the prong collar. 

After two weeks of daily use, she now focuses, although not every time, on the jogger or biker, but walks "calmly" at my side as they pass. It gets better with every passing day. The lunging and wanting to attack has stopped completely. Her state of excitement when they are approaching has "almost" disappeared. She now walks like a well trained dog at my side. I feel like a different person when walking her now, much more confident and at ease, and I think that transfers to her. 

I know prong collars aren't for every one but it worked wonders for me and my dog.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

Thank you for the update. I always wonder what the outcome to the problem is when posters are given advice. It sounds like the collar worked in your situation.


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## parus (Apr 10, 2014)

Are you walking a _Pomeranian_ on a prong collar?


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

I believe it's being used on an AmStaff. 

If it's true that the dog "was intent on attacking" the joggers, then it's probably best that the dog be temporarily muzzled while being walked, and a certified behaviourist should be consulted. Whether the prong collar appears to have rectified the problem or not, there's still a good chance the dog is a ticking time bomb IMO and public safety may continue to be at significant risk. Addressing the issue with the direct help of a professional seems warranted, rather than skimping with a D.I.Y. mail-order collar kit and info gleaned from the internet.

Just my thoughts.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

petpeeve said:


> I believe it's being used on an AmStaff.
> 
> Addressing the issue with the direct help of a professional seems warranted, rather than skimping with a D.I.Y. mail-order collar kit and info gleaned from the internet.


As someone who retired from a tenured university post, partly out of disbelief in the system, and who has worked with many supposed K-9 professionals, I would hesitate to support 'qualified' professionals without some skepticism. I saw a lot of kids graduate who hadn't gotten a firm grasp on the basics. I've watched some high profile dog trainers collect a good fee and not yield positive results. 

Critical reasoning, common sense, and pragmatism are key. Sure, there's a lot of garbage on the internet. There are also a lot of 'trainers' who have only a hammer and treat all problems as a nail . . . or who are unduly influenced by some ideology of idol. Finding something that works is key . . . and there are many routes to do it. 

Congrads on getting a positive outcome . . . quickly. Good that you are looking at details. Continue doing so and keep experimenting. If my experience with the girl who was helped by prong collar holds, you should be able to go back to a normal flat collar soon. The lesson will have been learned. Your dog may be different. And don't assume the next dog will be the same. Patty pup's adventures with the prong collar produced only a sore neck -- despite the immediate success of the prong collar on her grandmother -- and no lessening of the inclination to want to kill whatever it was (usually armadillo or deer, occasionally a cyclist). Which reminds me, I should give Patty another try with the prong collar. The fact that it didn't work when she was six months doesn't mean it won't work now that she is two years old.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea, it's an AmStaff. 

It's kind of an interesting notion to me, though, that using a prong on a small dog is necessarily worse than a large dog. If the dog is self correcting, the owner isn't doing corrections (eg leash pops) and it is properly sized and fitted then why? (Not saying it's the tool I would choose, but just taking a short segue into Hypothetical Land.)


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> Yea, it's an AmStaff.
> 
> It's kind of an interesting notion to me, though, that using a prong on a small dog is necessarily worse than a large dog. If the dog is self correcting, the owner isn't doing corrections (eg leash pops) and it is properly sized and fitted then why? (Not saying it's the tool I would choose, but just taking a short segue into Hypothetical Land.)


I think part of it is just that you are never going to run into a situation where the small dog is going to be beyond your ability to control with other means. I don't think it's any more aversive to the small dog than a large dog (or less for the large dog), but I don't think it's as necessary, either. Your pom is never going to knock you on your face, break a collar or leash to get to someone/another dog/run into the street and cause a wreck, or be beyond your ability to pick up and walk away with, you know?

I don't think prongs are evil (obviously), but for me they're mostly useful as an added measure of control and I have a hard time envisioning scenarios where you need that with a little dog. Doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I can't think of them easily.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

sassafras said:


> Yea, it's an AmStaff.
> 
> It's kind of an interesting notion to me, though, that using a prong on a small dog is necessarily worse than a large dog. If the dog is self correcting, the owner isn't doing corrections (eg leash pops) and it is properly sized and fitted then why? (Not saying it's the tool I would choose, but just taking a short segue into Hypothetical Land.)


From my perspective, the reasoning would be that you -can- otherwise physically handle a small dog, whereas some large dogs (depending on the dog and the person) can out muscle their owner and cause a safety issue. So since you don't -need to- use a prong to control a small dog, choosing to do so is not a... good choice? Ethical choice?

(not saying I agree or disagree, just what I would presume the reasoning would be)


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

Jen2010 said:


> I'm trying to walk Kane and Pepper at the same time, but honestly it's quite challenging. They both "know" loose leash walking but without treats to reinforce her, Pepper will be constantly switching between stopping to sniff everything she sees and pulling to get ahead to the next thing that she can stop and sniff.
> 
> Kane on his own is a joy to walk, Pepper on her own has to be constantly managed (with treats). When walking them together, I don't have a free hand for treats and can't give Pepper the attention that's required for her to walk nicely.
> 
> ...


Not for me, personally. 

Now I realize this thread is several pages in already, and no I have not read beyond the first post so excuse me if this has been resolved or no longer requires input. 
I would continue walking both dogs separately and continue reinforcing LLW with Pepper until you can begin to wean out the treats. I'd also keep her on a short leash and when she begins to pull towards something, stop moving completely and call her back to a heel and then move forward. At first it may seem like you're taking 1 step and she's hitting the end of the leash and then you have to stop again - and it IS boring, and it IS repetitive. But you can make the "smelly thing" the reward once she can reach it without physically pulling you to the object, and just let her sniff it for a while. Then give a 'leave it' and keep walking. 

That would just be my alternative to a prong, it's what worked for Toby so I've not explored other avenues.


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## LoMD13 (Aug 4, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Yea, it's an AmStaff.
> 
> It's kind of an interesting notion to me, though, that using a prong on a small dog is necessarily worse than a large dog. If the dog is self correcting, the owner isn't doing corrections (eg leash pops) and it is properly sized and fitted then why? (Not saying it's the tool I would choose, but just taking a short segue into Hypothetical Land.)


My thought is that it would be worse because toy dogs are so much more prone than large dogs to trachea damage/collapse. It just seems riskier.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

LoMD13 said:


> My thought is that it would be worse because toy dogs are so much more prone than large dogs to trachea damage/collapse.


You pretty much can't damage a dog's throat with a prong that way - there's no pressure that can be applied because of the way they function. A flat collar, a choke chain or slip lead, yes, but because a prong contracts and grabs the skin of the neck (and pinches and hurts hence their function) and the placement of the prongs, there's never any pressure on the dog's throat - there can't be, actually, at least not flat pressure across the throat. 

I mean obviously I'm not a huge fan but on that basis alone I'd go for a prong for a toy dog than even a flat buckle collar if there was a pulling issue. I'd go harness first, of course, and that would cover it in any scenario I could think of, but if I was for some inexplicable reason DETERMINED to put something around a small dog's throat I'd go prong before ANYTHING else.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> I don't think prongs are evil (obviously), but for me they're mostly useful as an added measure of control and I have a hard time envisioning scenarios where you need that with a little dog. Doesn't mean they don't exist, just that I can't think of them easily.


I've seen it. When Kuma was young and we were in obedience class, there was a couple of elderly ladies there with a toy breed that was pulling badly, and they had trouble holding onto the leash when he pulled because they had bad arthritis in their hands. Our class was purely positive reinforcement and flat collars or harnesses were required, but the trainer actually allowed and recommended them to use a prong collar in that situation while they worked on his pulling with positive reinforcement training in class.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I've seen it. When Kuma was young and we were in obedience class, there was a couple of elderly ladies there with a toy breed that was pulling badly, and they had trouble holding onto the leash when he pulled because they had bad arthritis in their hands. Our class was purely positive reinforcement and flat collars or harnesses were required, but the trainer actually allowed and recommended them to use a prong collar in that situation while they worked on his pulling with positive reinforcement training in class.


That makes sense to me!


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## Greater Swiss (Jun 7, 2011)

Kuma'sMom said:


> I've seen it. When Kuma was young and we were in obedience class, there was a couple of elderly ladies there with a toy breed that was pulling badly, and they had trouble holding onto the leash when he pulled because they had bad arthritis in their hands. Our class was purely positive reinforcement and flat collars or harnesses were required, but the trainer actually allowed and recommended them to use a prong collar in that situation while they worked on his pulling with positive reinforcement training in class.


Nice, sounds like a very sensible solution......using it in a way that helped the ladies, but not depending on it as the sole method to have the dog walk nicely. Glad to hear of a flexible trainer (not that they don't exist, but I've heard of some pretty unyeilding ones).


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

CptJack said:


> You pretty much can't damage a dog's throat with a prong that way - there's no pressure that can be applied because of the way they function. A flat collar, a choke chain or slip lead, yes, but because a prong contracts and grabs the skin of the neck (and pinches and hurts hence their function) and the placement of the prongs, there's never any pressure on the dog's throat - there can't be, actually, at least not flat pressure across the throat.


I'm not a physicist, but from what I know about force I think ANYTHING across the neck or throat of a pulling dog would potentially put undue pressure on those areas.

The Herm Sprenger is a symmetrical collar, and if you look at the way it is designed to close you'll see the bottom two prongs seem as if they would fit squarely 'around' the trachea of some dogs. With a prong then situated on opposite sides, the symmetrical action just might cause some damage.

I mean honestly, I haven't done any official laboratory testing  but I feel there is enough concern there, for me personally anyways, that I wouldn't use / recommend one even on a small dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

If a dog COULD pull in a prong it would be one thing, but they can't. The prong literally converts all the pressure and 'pull' into pulling the points of the prong inward and pinching skin. The closing action won't grip the trachea either because the prongs get smaller and spaced closer when the sizes go down, so that can't happen with a properly fitted one. They grab skin - that's ALL they grab. It's almost impossible for a dog to lean into a properly fitted prong - I'd say completely impossible, but there are always ways and exceptions - but it'd take a lot of doing and work. 

Again, I especially wouldn't use one on a small dog because the need and benefit is so much more limited and there are a billion other less aversive ways, but 'will damage a small dog's neck because they're delicate' is not the reason to not do it. That it's aversive and you don't want to use aversives, that they look scary to you, that you're afraid of abuse, that they need to be fit professionally, whatever - great. 

But you are far, far more likely to do throat damage to a dog of any size on a flat collar than with a prong - both because of the fact that a prong is so much harder to lean and pull against (again - why it works), the mechanism of the thing, and the distribution of pressure.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

parus said:


> Are you walking a _Pomeranian_ on a prong collar?


No, that was my previous little buddy. He would walk by my side without even being on a leash.

This is my new girl, Reba:


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Here is a picture I found that nicely illustrates my thought. I would also think that on an excited, straining dog the throat would actually protrude further out from the neck than what is shown in the image.



I remain unconvinced that there is no potential for damage.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> I believe it's being used on an AmStaff.
> 
> If it's true that the dog "was intent on attacking" the joggers, then it's probably best that the dog be temporarily muzzled while being walked, and a certified behaviourist should be consulted. Whether the prong collar appears to have rectified the problem or not, there's still a good chance the dog is a ticking time bomb IMO and public safety may continue to be at significant risk. Addressing the issue with the direct help of a professional seems warranted, rather than skimping with a D.I.Y. mail-order collar kit and info gleaned from the internet.
> 
> Just my thoughts.


Wow, too funny! And these are just my thoughts regarding your own internet assessment of how my dog is a "ticking time bomb" and is "putting public safety at significant risk". 

*Good Gawd!* :yawn::boink:

I guess my "DIY mail order collar kit" and "info gleaned from the internet" are worth a damn bit more than you think seeing as how they have accomplished everything that I have wanted.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

dmichaelc said:


> She was intent on attacking.


Chill out. Petpeeve made a good point. It's great that the prong collar is helping you walk your dog more easily. But referring to your words above, if your dog was TRULY aggressive and intent on attacking, petpeeve is right and although the prong collar might give off the image of a calm dog walking by your side, it does not address the underlying issue of aggression. And as many people might suggest, you do not use a prong collar on a reactive/aggressive dog because it masks the aggression and the dog may associate the pinch with the stimulus, making them even more likely to lunge without warning if they ever have the chance. 

Regardless of why your dog is lunging, if you are already sold on the prong collar I would still highly recommend BAT; take advantage of the new found control you have and work on building focus on you.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

CptJack said:


> If a dog COULD pull in a prong it would be one thing, but they can't. The prong literally converts all the pressure and 'pull' into pulling the points of the prong inward and pinching skin. The closing action won't grip the trachea either because the prongs get smaller and spaced closer when the sizes go down, so that can't happen with a properly fitted one. They grab skin - that's ALL they grab. It's almost impossible for a dog to lean into a properly fitted prong - I'd say completely impossible, but there are always ways and exceptions - but it'd take a lot of doing and work.
> 
> Again, I especially wouldn't use one on a small dog because the need and benefit is so much more limited and there are a billion other less aversive ways, but 'will damage a small dog's neck because they're delicate' is not the reason to not do it. That it's aversive and you don't want to use aversives, that they look scary to you, that you're afraid of abuse, that they need to be fit professionally, whatever - great.
> 
> But you are far, far more likely to do throat damage to a dog of any size on a flat collar than with a prong - both because of the fact that a prong is so much harder to lean and pull against (again - why it works), the mechanism of the thing, and the distribution of pressure.


Thanks! The above is exactly what my assessment of prong collars was after extensive "internet gleaning". I can truly say that I am now a professional internet prong collar trainer and can take any vicious dog who is a threat to public safety and convert them into well behaved canines. :biggrin1:

Now on a more serious note, I'll do some more internet gleaning on Martindale collars. A couple of months from now I'll try and transition from the prong to a Martindale.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

CptJack said:


> If a dog COULD pull in a prong it would be one thing, but they can't. The prong literally converts all the pressure and 'pull' into pulling the points of the prong inward and pinching skin. The closing action won't grip the trachea either because the prongs get smaller and spaced closer when the sizes go down, so that can't happen with a properly fitted one. They grab skin - that's ALL they grab. It's almost impossible for a dog to lean into a properly fitted prong - I'd say completely impossible, but there are always ways and exceptions - but it'd take a lot of doing and work.
> 
> Again, I especially wouldn't use one on a small dog because the need and benefit is so much more limited and there are a billion other less aversive ways, but 'will damage a small dog's neck because they're delicate' is not the reason to not do it. That it's aversive and you don't want to use aversives, that they look scary to you, that you're afraid of abuse, that they need to be fit professionally, whatever - great.
> 
> But you are far, far more likely to do throat damage to a dog of any size on a flat collar than with a prong - both because of the fact that a prong is so much harder to lean and pull against (again - why it works), the mechanism of the thing, and the distribution of pressure.


This may sound ridiculous but would it be worth testing this out on oneself and seeing if the pressure is distributed as you say or if it does end up choking? I wish I had mine but I've lost it years and years ago


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

dmichaelc said:


> Wow, too funny!


 Yes, funny. Apparently I have underestimated your training prowess by far. I bow to thee, O Holy One ... :hail: 

Oh and by the way, it's martinGale not martindale, but don't worry you can learn all about proper terminology on the internet too. And please keep us posted on Cujo's progress in a few months, I'm sure you'll be back with more stories.

Cheers.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

Canyx said:


> Chill out. Petpeeve made a good point. It's great that the prong collar is helping you walk your dog more easily. But referring to your words above, if your dog was TRULY aggressive and intent on attacking, petpeeve is right and although the prong collar might give off the image of a calm dog walking by your side, it does not address the underlying issue of aggression. And as many people might suggest, you do not use a prong collar on a reactive/aggressive dog because it masks the aggression and the dog may associate the pinch with the stimulus, making them even more likely to lunge without warning if they ever have the chance.
> 
> Regardless of why your dog is lunging, if you are already sold on the prong collar I would still highly recommend BAT; take advantage of the new found control you have and work on building focus on you.


No, it really wasn't a good point. It didn't even slightly take into account the possibility that the prong collar has and is serving as a good training device relative to my dog. It basically insinuated that I don't even remotely have any idea what I'm doing and that I immediately need to seek the help of a professional for the sake of public safety. I probably would have replied/reacted differently had the poster not felt the need to try and belittle with the unnecessary reference to "DIY mail order collars" and "info gleaned from the internet".


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> This may sound ridiculous but would it be worth testing this out on oneself and seeing if the pressure is distributed as you say or if it does end up choking? I wish I had mine but I've lost it years and years ago


I played with it a lot, and just tried it again just for you with a different goal (to make it feel 'tight'). '

It pokes pretty hard (I have no fur and not a lot of looser skin like a dog) and it kind of scratches, but it doesn't really... feel tight, if that makes sense? Like it just can't come together far enough because of the construction to feel like constriction to me. Nothing feels like pressure, and certainly nothing that feels like blood flow is being restricted. Though I am admittedly a human and I'm using it on my THIGH, not my neck. I'm not putting it on my neck because I'd have to remove links for the 'proper fit' and I'm lazy.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

Canyx said:


> This may sound ridiculous but would it be worth testing this out on oneself and seeing if the pressure is distributed as you say or if it does end up choking? I wish I had mine but I've lost it years and years ago


This would make for a great youtube video. Much like the ones in which people donned e-collars and zapped themselves.


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## Jen2010 (Feb 12, 2013)

Thanks for all the responses everyone. I haven't bought a collar yet for Pepper; I can't find a store that sells them where I can actually go in and try it on. I guess I'll have to order one online.



> Now I realize this thread is several pages in already, and no I have not read beyond the first post so excuse me if this has been resolved or no longer requires input.
> I would continue walking both dogs separately and continue reinforcing LLW with Pepper until you can begin to wean out the treats. I'd also keep her on a short leash and when she begins to pull towards something, stop moving completely and call her back to a heel and then move forward. At first it may seem like you're taking 1 step and she's hitting the end of the leash and then you have to stop again - and it IS boring, and it IS repetitive. But you can make the "smelly thing" the reward once she can reach it without physically pulling you to the object, and just let her sniff it for a while. Then give a 'leave it' and keep walking.
> 
> That would just be my alternative to a prong, it's what worked for Toby so I've not explored other avenues.


 Yeah I've done all the LLW with Pepper that I can, she's just a puller by nature I think. I've been trying for two years to phase out the treats! Lol!


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

CptJack said:


> I played with it a lot, and just tried it again just for you with a different goal (to make it feel 'tight'). '
> 
> It pokes pretty hard (I have no fur and not a lot of looser skin like a dog) and it kind of scratches, but it doesn't really... feel tight, if that makes sense? Like it just can't come together far enough because of the construction to feel like constriction to me. Nothing feels like pressure, and certainly nothing that feels like blood flow is being restricted. Though I am admittedly a human and I'm using it on my THIGH, not my neck. I'm not putting it on my neck because I'd have to remove links for the 'proper fit' and I'm lazy.


Come now, CptJack. We don't go around fitting prong collars to our dogs' thighs


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Canyx said:


> Come now, CptJack. We don't go around fitting prong collars to our dogs' thighs


HAVE YOU SEEN THUD's NECK? I'm not sure his collar can break down far enough to fit my neck, and still function as it's supposed to. ...I wonder if I can convince my husband to put a prong on his throat.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

dmichaelc said:


> No, it really wasn't a good point. It didn't even slightly take into account the possibility that the prong collar has and is serving as a good training device relative to my dog. It basically insinuated that I don't even remotely have any idea what I'm doing and that I immediately need to seek the help of a professional for the sake of public safety. I probably would have replied/reacted differently had the poster not felt the need to try and belittle with the unnecessary reference to "DIY mail order collars" and "info gleaned from the internet".



It was a very good and valid point given your specific wording that the dog was bent on attacking a human. 

If the dog was truly intent to attack a human, you're talking about a whole different ballgame and risk level than a dog who wants to eat the neighbor's cat or lunge for the bunny rabbit hopping by. And yes, aversives used when dealing with human or dog aggression can have serious fallout. Like, serious human injury and dead dog kind of fallout.

We aren't there to see your dog and of course you can accept whatever risk you are comfortable with, but a prong to deal with human aggression is something that few or none of us here would suggest or give advice for the use of over the internet.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> Here is a picture I found that nicely illustrates my thought. I would also think that on an excited, straining dog the throat would actually protrude further out from the neck than what is shown in the image.


I have seen dogs choke themselves on a prong to the point of gasping for air but the prong was not being used correctly or safely by the handler.

It does put less pressure on the throat though for a dog that lunges than a flat collar. I don't like the style like that graphic because it seems to actually pinch more on the trachea than the basic kind with the prongs all facing the same direction. But that's just my observation


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## backpackers (Jul 31, 2014)

I remain so on the fence about prong collars. My first thought, upon getting Basil, was that I would never use a prong collar on him. I introduced one to my prior dog, and she found it utterly traumatizing. Shut down. Completely. A head collar worked the best for her.

Fast-forward to Basil learning to walk on a leash. My fault. We lived in a town SURROUNDED by trails and state forests, have a well-trained adult Labrador... puppy never got leash training. Whoops. Realized he "forgot" his recall command when he became a snotty teenager and onto a leash he went. Hm. Nose > over food, birds > human, birds > life itself. He does okay-ISH walking on his flat collar or his harness. BUT if he sees a bird that catches his eye in _just_ the right-wrong way, he will and has darted in front of moving vehicles. I revisited the idea of using a prong collar... chewed on it for a few months, during which time I tried a front harness (no effect whatsoever), a head harness (flailing, rolling, screaming). Prong collar? No reaction. Didn't mind it, tested it a few times with some swiveling and pausing, quick turns... just to see his reaction to stimuli in a controlled setting. He was hardly phased by it, aside from catching up and keeping a better eye on me.

Moral of the story? I still don't like them, but I accept that it's wildly dependent on the dog... I'd rather use a tool that he prefers than one that makes me more comfortable/that he hate-hate-hates.

I didn't know that you shouldn't pop-correct with them though! I appreciate it. We've only taken four walks with the prong collar, so I think it's early days enough to break my bad habit. Thank you!


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, man. I missed the picture until Shell quoted it and it showed up, but I've never seen a prong like that before. My replies all deal with the kind of prong without that metal bit in the other so the prongs are all going one direction (without the bit in the middle), and assuming the prong is fitted correctly and placed properly. 

That picture looks scary to me, too.


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## BKaymuttleycrew (Feb 2, 2015)

CptJack said:


> If a dog COULD pull in a prong it would be one thing, but they can't. The prong literally converts all the pressure and 'pull' into pulling the points of the prong inward and pinching skin. The closing action won't grip the trachea either because the prongs get smaller and spaced closer when the sizes go down, so that can't happen with a properly fitted one. They grab skin - that's ALL they grab. It's almost impossible for a dog to lean into a properly fitted prong - I'd say completely impossible, but there are always ways and exceptions - but it'd take a lot of doing and work.
> 
> Again, I especially wouldn't use one on a small dog because the need and benefit is so much more limited and there are a billion other less aversive ways, but 'will damage a small dog's neck because they're delicate' is not the reason to not do it. That it's aversive and you don't want to use aversives, that they look scary to you, that you're afraid of abuse, that they need to be fit professionally, whatever - great.
> 
> But you are far, far more likely to do throat damage to a dog of any size on a flat collar than with a prong - both because of the fact that a prong is so much harder to lean and pull against (again - why it works), the mechanism of the thing, and the distribution of pressure.


Well, I have know more than one dog (not my own) that have been walked on a prong collar (obviously used incorrectly) that have been allowed to pull their way along to the point that the dog became 'neck-dead' (for want of a better description) Basically, they got so used to the feeling of the prongs slightly digging in, they stopped feeling them, pretty much, all together. 

These dogs would, if distracted, aroused, etc... pull against the prong collar to the point of choking themselves (as similarly seen with a pulling dog on a flat or 'regular' choke collar) 

So, while it's safe to say that in the hands of an *attentive* handler, a dog WON'T choke himself on a prong - one can't make that blanket statement when speaking about the handling abilities of John Q Public in general. Sadly.......


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

They still can't pull to that degree on a prong. I mean they just - can't. They can pull, still, they can choke and gag still, they can learn nothing, but they are not going to do the kind of damage to themselves on a prong because of the nature of the thing.

The pressure is put in specific points. They can choke themselves, sure, but they're not going to collapse the inner workings of their trachea if it fits right, because they're putting pressure on points, rather than on a flat surface. It's MORE pressure on those points and they're angled so it's dispersed a bit more, but it's still going to NOT put uniform pressure around the circumfrence of the neck. Or even the front of it across the whole front of the trachea from leaning in hard. Because it's not all even touching the dog.

Choke chain? No contest. They don't have stops AND it lays flat against the whole neck/throat area. They will keep getting tighter and tighter with pressure. Prongs are always limited contraction. They can choke, maybe, but they can not literally hang themselves, even IF it fits wrong. They are limited slip to start with - too big and they won't contract far enough to pinch OR choke, too small and they just stop constricting.

So, sure, it won't stop them pulling if you use it 'wrong', and the dog can be used to it, but the science doesn't WORK for saying they are as 'bad' as pulling against a flat collar or choke. ESPECIALLY the choke - I might be convinced about the flat.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

I think the key, CptJack, is the wording of "if it fits right"--
I think a properly sized and fitted prong is safer for a dog that lunges or pulls hard than a flat collar or choke chain yes. A harness is safer for their neck IF the hander can still control them in a lunge though,

But for example, Eva came to me with a prong collar that was the small link size (so harsher prongs) and the style of the graphic in PetPeeve's post and she was absolutely being strung up by it. It was choking her. 
I did switch her to a large link prong collar of a different type and began working on combining that with positive reinforcement and there was right off a distinct difference in her breathing when she pulled and in the pressure points obvious on her skin.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> think the key, CptJack, is the wording of "if it fits right"--


I'll agree with that. A prong that's too small and constricts at all is going to present a choking issue. One that's too big probably just won't work but too small and any pulling leads to contraction and well. Yeah. Choking.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

I haven't read all the replies, but I have to say that if I were to use any kind of loose leash walking aid my boy would probably do best and either a choke chain or a prong as opposed to a head collar or an Easy Walk Harness.

I don't judge people that use prongs as long as they're using them correctly and they are fitted correctly, who am I to judge somebody else when I don't even know their story? They might have a reason for using that college that I don't know.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I went to a prong on Kris winter before last when it was so icy out. Used it off and on that winter and sometimes in the summer if I was in places like watching a parade with lots of people and kids. Went back to a choke collar and she never pulls with it but I was also raised with teaching dogs with choke collars so know how to use them. Most of the time now, I just have her flat leather collar on and that is all I need.
When she has a choke collar on she stops with the slightest pressure on it, never has been allowed to have it tighten and choke her.


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## Flaming (Feb 2, 2013)

Canyx said:


> This may sound ridiculous but would it be worth testing this out on oneself and seeing if the pressure is distributed as you say or if it does end up choking? I wish I had mine but I've lost it years and years ago


I've had a prong on my neck before.

I posted about it a yearish ago.

Me and a cousin put it on each other and reefed on each others necks as hard as we could.

Skin pinch yes
Choking no.

I even got stuck in it for a bit because my cousin put it on me wrong and it took a half hour to get off. 

We never laughed so hard in our lives.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

In short, when I see a dog with one, unless its on a flexi, or the prong is ill fitted, I dont pass judgement, I dont know the dog, or the other, I am sure they have their reasons for using one. 

I myself have used one in the past on a dog I had when I was a teenager, he was a great dane / mastiff mix who weighed about 130 lbs LOL, he was well trained but had prey drive and if he saw a squirrel, or a cat, forget it! So, for his and my safety (I lived in a suburban area but the high school about a mile from where I lived, so a lot of teenagers racing down our main street), I used a prong.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

2nd Update On the Use of the Prong Collar:

My AmStaff stopped lunging and wanting to attack joggers and bikers after the FIRST use of the prong collar, first use meaning first entire walk. After a little more than a months daily use, she walks calmly at my side and all but ignores joggers and bikers when they now approach or pass. She has never shown any aggression toward people except when they are running or riding a bike. She will let anyone walk up to her and pet her. 

I wanted to try and transition from a prong to a Martingale and I received my "DIY mail-order Martin(d)ale :hail: collars" yesterday and properly fit one of them on her. I might add here, the proper fit and use of the Martingale were "gleaned" by yours truly from the internet. The results from her first walk yesterday were predictable. As with the prong, she walked calmly by my side, no pulling, no wandering. During our walk, 2 joggers and 1 biker approached from the opposite direction on the sidewalk on which we were using. My worst fears suddenly became real..........................just kidding, she continued to walk calmly beside me and may have given them a slight glance. :clap2: The prong collar transformed my Amstaff from a dog who wanted to attack joggers/bikers to a well adjusted walking buddy. 

Seems my "internet gleaned information" and "DIY mail-order collar" combined with a little intelligence, common sense, time and determination were all I needed to solve the problem. There was no need to panic, immediately call a "certified behaviorist", and alert the police to the "significant threat to public safety". 

So, with much pleasure and gratification, I can happily say that there will be no stories about "Cujo". 

Moral of the story...........prong collars can work on some dogs, and produce wonderful results, quickly. Even if you have what some may deem to be a problem dog with a serious problem, don't let some chicken little try and convince you that the sky is falling and that solutions are beyond your capabilities. While in some circumstances, professional help may certainly be required, you never know what you can accomplish if you put your mind to it.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

dmichaelc said:


> 2nd Update On the Use of the Prong Collar:
> 
> My AmStaff stopped lunging and wanting to attack joggers and bikers after the FIRST use of the prong collar, first use meaning first entire walk. After a little more than a months daily use, she walks calmly at my side and all but ignores joggers and bikers when they now approach or pass. She has never shown any aggression toward people except when they are running or riding a bike. She will let anyone walk up to her and pet her.
> 
> ...


Isn't this copy/pasted from another thread or something? I swear I've read this post before... Maybe I'm just confusing it with the previous update post that also raved about a prong solving reactivity.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> Isn't this copy/pasted from another thread or something? I swear I've read this post before... Maybe I'm just confusing it with the previous update post that also raved about a prong solving reactivity.


Well, if the above is true, this is very sad. Honesty is dying. 

dmichaelc, I'm glad it sounds like you found a miracle "power steering" from the prong collar. But what I find so fascinating on this list is that some of the same people who only purport positives will still bow to the prong. And it doesn't MATTER if they have a powerful dog, or they have a disability or they live on ice. You said in your original post that your dog only listens to you IF you have a piece of food in its face.

So...the REALITY and the TRUTH about training is that BOTH positive reinforcement training (whether you use food or a toy) IS a TOOL, just like those that say the prong is a TOOL. If you hitch your wagon to positive reinforcement training only, and you start by training your 9 week old puppy with food and at 10 YEARS of age he still won't listen to you unless you wave food across his face, then you FAILED in training that dog. So, if everybody is saying...oh well, even though we ALL (on this forum) only utilize positive reinforcement...the prong is "OKAY" because (name your reason) and because it is simply A TOOL. So, now that your dog, or anybody else's dog has ceased the unwanted behavior by being on the prong...if you actually are using that collar as a TOOL...then I don't know how ANYBODY can reject the idea that at some point, you have to take the prong away in order for your understanding of TRAINING to be sound. 

In other words...regardless of treats or the prong collars...if you actually trained your dog, he is going to LISTEN to you in the absence of both.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

ireth0 said:


> Isn't this copy/pasted from another thread or something? I swear I've read this post before... Maybe I'm just confusing it with the previous update post that also raved about a prong solving reactivity.


Cut and paste or not (I think it's just similar to the first update . . . but the stuff about the Martindale and the 'don't need a behaviorist' bits are new), the events described are so similar to my own experiences with a prong collar that I wouldn't discount them. For some dogs a prong collar is a very effective way to get good manners on a loose lead.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> So...the REALITY and the TRUTH about training is that BOTH positive reinforcement training (whether you use food or a toy) IS a TOOL, just like those that say the prong is a TOOL. If you hitch your wagon to positive reinforcement training only, and you start by training your 9 week old puppy with food and at 10 YEARS of age he still won't listen to you unless you wave food across his face, then you FAILED in training that dog. So, if everybody is saying...oh well, even though we ALL (on this forum) only utilize positive reinforcement...the prong is "OKAY" because (name your reason) and because it is simply A TOOL. So, now that your dog, or anybody else's dog has ceased the unwanted behavior by being on the prong...if you actually are using that collar as a TOOL...then I don't know how ANYBODY can reject the idea that at some point, you have to take the prong away in order for your understanding of TRAINING to be sound.


I don't think anyone would necessarily disagree with this? A prong is a management tool, not a substitute for training. Similarly, waving treats in front of your dog to bribe them to obey is also not really training, and is not what +R is.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> Cut and paste or not (I think it's just similar to the first update . . . but the stuff about the Martindale and the 'don't need a behaviorist' bits are new), the events described are so similar to my own experiences with a prong collar that I wouldn't discount them. For some dogs a prong collar is a very effective way to get good manners on a loose lead.


Yea, looking at it more closely it seems like just a lot of the same phrases/experiences were used with some new bits also thrown in.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> So, if everybody is saying...oh well, even though we ALL (on this forum) only utilize positive reinforcement...


I don't think anyone is saying that. 




> I don't know how ANYBODY can reject the idea that at some point, you have to take the prong away in order for your understanding of TRAINING to be sound.


Nobody is rejecting that idea. Several posters have said that their use of the prong is/was temporary. Others have stated that they continue to use it as a management tool while freely acknowledging that this kind of use isn't training.

I don't think you have a very good understanding of management, honestly, or that people understand that management and training are two completely different things. For example, I don't care to train my dogs not to get into the garbage, so I just manage it. My dogs simply don't have access to garbage. I don't pretend that I'm training them, I don't claim to be training them, but I am managing them in a way that keeps me happy and them safe. 

Management isn't a dirty sin, and the only one who seems to think that anyone here thinks management and training are the same thing is you.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

sassafras said:


> I don't think anyone is saying that.



We have some people -individuals- on this forum who claim to or who actually do only use positive reinforcement, but I've sure as heck never claimed anything of the sort. I use corrections of various sorts, from cracked up e-collars to no reward markers to taking something the dog wants away depending on the circumstance and the dog, and not a single one of those is +R




> Nobody is rejecting that idea. Several posters have said that their use of the prong is/was temporary. Others have stated that they continue to use it as a management tool while freely acknowledging that this kind of use isn't training.
> 
> I don't think you have a very good understanding of management, honestly, or that people understand that management and training are two completely different things. For example, I don't care to train my dogs not to get into the garbage, so I just manage it. My dogs simply don't have access to garbage. I don't pretend that I'm training them, I don't claim to be training them, but I am managing them in a way that keeps me happy and them safe.
> 
> Management isn't a dirty sin, and the only one who seems to think that anyone here thinks management and training are the same thing is you.


Right. I don't use a prong as a training tool, I use it as 200% management. Thud knows how to loose leash walk - I *trained* that. I did not train him not to lunge violently and randomly toward prey - I use a prong to keep both he and I safe, sans training and that's management of the tendency. Could I train it out? Probably, eventually, but not without a lot of time and effort that just isn't worth it to me, for this particular issue. Management keeps him safe, keeps me safe, removes potential impact from other people. Not training it doesn't impact my life in any real way, so to heck with it. Wear the prong as back up and we're moving on doing things both the dog and I find more enjoyable and worthwhile.

I TRAIN plenty. I train agility, I train silly tricks, I train obedience, I train manners, I train off leash skills, I train structured *games*. I train lots and lots of stuff. 

I also manage plenty. I don't leave my dirty socks on the floor or food on the counters, I keep the litterboxes and cat food inaccessible, and I walk a dog on a prong. Why? Because those things are easy to prevent with little effort on my part, result in the same basic ease of living and lack of risk to the dog, and I can use the time I'm not teaching them not to counter surf to teach them stuff that *I* find rewarding.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> dmichaelc, I'm glad it sounds like you found a miracle "power steering" from the prong collar. But what I find so fascinating on this list is that some of the same people who only purport positives will still bow to the prong. And it doesn't MATTER if they have a powerful dog, or they have a disability or they live on ice. * You said in your original post that your dog only listens to you IF you have a piece of food in its face.*


You're mistaken. I never said anything about food in my original post or any other post in this thread. If I have, please feel free to quote my words in that post and I'll apologize. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

dmichaelc said:


> You're mistaken. I never said anything about food in my original post or any other post in this thread. If I have, please feel free to quote my words in that post and I'll apologize. I think you have me mixed up with someone else.


PaddiB is - they're confusing you with the OP of this thread. They also seem to think people here are all about all positive all the time based on ???? something or another.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

sandgrubber said:


> Cut and paste or not (I think it's just similar to the first update . . . but the stuff about the Martindale and the 'don't need a behaviorist' bits are new), the events described are so similar to my own experiences with a prong collar that I wouldn't discount them. For some dogs a prong collar is a very effective way to get good manners on a loose lead.


The only similarity to my first update is that the prong collar continues to work. The additions are the clarity to what my AmStaff is/was reactive to, i.e. "moving" things such as the jogger and biker. She is not aggressive to people at all unless they are running or riding a bike. And even that has now completely stopped. Also new was her behavior when I replaced the prong collar with the Martingale. She walks and behaves with the Martingale as if she is wearing the prong. 

The referrals to info gleaned from the internet, DIY mail-order collars, significant threats to public safety, certified behaviorist, etc. are easily understood if one were to go back and read the thread in it's entirety.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

CptJack said:


> PaddiB is - they're confusing you with the OP of this thread. They also seem to think people here are all about all positive all the time based on ???? something or another.


CJ, just curious, now that I have added some clarification on what my AmStaff, Reba, was reactive to and cleared up what I think was a misunderstanding that she was aggressive toward people in general, what are your thoughts on my use of the prong to get her to stop her aggression toward joggers and bikers? She is a completely different dog now on walks after using the prong and things continue to improve. I'm interested in hearing if some here still might think her aggression toward moving subjects/objects is now just "hidden" and that I might actually have made her condition worse and not know it.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Not really sure. I don't know why she was reacting in the first place which clarifies nothing and makes guessing hard. 

The reason I say 'don'tdon'tdon't' with reactive dogs and prongs is that if the situation is related to fear, you're going to make the dog more afraid of the trigger, since the trigger is now paired with pain. Some dogs will make the leap to understanding that the reaction is what causes the pain not the appearance of the trigger, but some won't. Some that do, many that do, it won't matter to - they just have an additional reason to be afraid. Some of those dogs will learn to put a lid on it, but they're still scared and that's still potentially dangerous.

Excitement/frustration is a little simpler in that while there is the odd dog that ramps up in response to pain (and let's not kid ourselves, I use a prong but they work because they hurt), and while some dogs will still have that negative/aversive association to the trigger and develop a bigger issue as a result, it's more likely to just result in a dog who learns to keep a lid on it. They'll still be excited by those things, but they weren't afraid and not all that likely to try and lash out at their trigger in 'self-defense' to start with. They were just obnoxious.

An actually aggressive dog (not fearful but who wants to chase down and kill whatever) is probably more rare outside prey-drive I don't think a prong makes one iota of difference there, frankly. Might make them dislike or want whatever it is more, but since they already want it enough to be a lunatic about it - whatever it takes to gain some control.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Not really sure. I don't know why she was reacting in the first place which clarifies nothing and makes guessing hard.
> 
> The reason I say 'don'tdon'tdon't' with reactive dogs and prongs is that if the situation is related to fear, you're going to make the dog more afraid of the trigger, since the trigger is now paired with pain. Some dogs will make the leap to understanding that the reaction is what causes the pain not the appearance of the trigger, but some won't. Some that do, many that do, it won't matter to - they just have an additional reason to be afraid. Some of those dogs will learn to put a lid on it, but they're still scared and that's still potentially dangerous.
> 
> ...


I adopted this AmStaff from a humane shelter when she was 2 years, 4 months old and I've now had her 6 months so obviously I don't know her like a book. I've never seen anything that would lead me to believe fear is the trigger that caused her reactivity to joggers and bikers. IMHO, I think she just has an extremely high prey drive. She absolutely goes nuts trying to catch squirrels and rabbits in the backyard. Even the occasional skink running across the deck drives her insane. 

Oh well, who knows? She now walks like a champ on the leash and that is what I was trying to achieve.

Thanks!


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

dmichaelc said:


> Oh well, who knows?


Heh. It's a blue moon.

http://www.space.com/30083-blue-moon-full-moon-friday.html


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> Heh. It's a blue moon.
> 
> http://www.space.com/30083-blue-moon-full-moon-friday.html


Oh, I really don't think blue moons had anything to do with it. The ability and desire to take things into my own hands using common sense, intelligence, and determination were the most important factors. Having a cool head and not needing to panic helped also. Some people aren't able to do this. 

If you ever need help using a prong collar on your dog, just let me know...................Heh.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Wow, surprise thread, as a trainer I have used a prong on 90% of my obedience dogs or usually a Prong/Martingale combo. I pretty much stay out of prong threads. It appears prong use on this forum has picked up a tad. 

Normally when a prong thread is started dog abuse is immediately jumped on.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I think some of us got dogs who benefited from on a purely practical level and just plain old refused to apologize . There's been some prong usage here as long as I've been around, but there has been a shift in attitude though, I think.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

wvasko said:


> Wow, surprise thread, as a trainer I have used a prong on 90% of my obedience dogs or usually a Prong/Martingale combo. I pretty much stay out of prong threads.


 Well, since you're here now. In keeping with the original thread topic, I'd be curious to review your personal thoughts on the use of prong collars by non-professionals to miraculously "cure" dog <> human reactivity. 

If my memory serves me correctly, ......


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

petpeeve said:


> Well, since you're here now. In keeping with the original thread topic, I'd be curious to review your personal thoughts on the use of prong collars by non-professionals to miraculously "cure" dog <> human reactivity.
> 
> If my memory serves me correctly, ......


Well at 78 years I hope my memory serves me, I don't believe I've ever given advice on how to use prongs on forum because of possible problems that could occur with amateur use. 

I'm sure that there have been some mistakenly identified miraculous cures after all even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. If the right amateur meets the right dog strange things can happen that might benefit both.

I worry about the amateurs that have ego/temper problems or the type that think if a little prong work is good then more is better. That's another reason I don't give advice on prong use.

Many, many years ago when I started I was thankful that I had the ability to read my dogs, learning from each dog I trained. I have mentioned on forum that the only way to learn training is to train dogs. The more dogs trained the better the end product.

There are many dogs that can be worked with prong collar or electric collar or choke collar and many more that can't, I personally started all my dogs with a prong, then the dogs tell me what changes are needed.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

Yup, you really have to know what you're doing when you decide to use a prong collar.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> Well, if the above is true, this is very sad. Honesty is dying.
> 
> dmichaelc, I'm glad it sounds like you found a miracle "power steering" from the prong collar. But what I find so fascinating on this list is that some of the same people who only purport positives will still bow to the prong. And it doesn't MATTER if they have a powerful dog, or they have a disability or they live on ice. You said in your original post that your dog only listens to you IF you have a piece of food in its face.
> 
> ...


Then pray tell, how do you propose people train their dogs if they are not supposed to use training aids or food or anything? Should they use toys? Oh no! They can't because that will create a dependence upon the toy in your logic. So what if the dog works for food? If that is the motivator for the dog then so be it. For my dog food and praise are interchangeable so in a way he is dependent upon both in order for me to get him to do what I want him to do, so by your logic apparently, I failed as a trainer.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

> then I don't know how ANYBODY can reject the idea that at some point, you have to take the prong away in order for your understanding of TRAINING to be sound.


 Well actually, that's the problem in most cases where the prong is the exclusive tool of choice. In the absence of the aversive stimulus the unwanted behavior will continue to occur. Or in simpler terms take away the prong once the dog is supposedly "trained" and the pulling returns, and sometimes returns with a vengeance. Thus the collar use becomes pretty much a lifelong dependency, despite the odd and boisterous claim to the contrary. 

It's also one of the bigger reasons why wiser people often cite the premise .. it's better to teach the dog what TO do rather than what not to do.


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## dmichaelc (Jun 7, 2013)

My AmStaff went from a tremendous puller and animal that wanted to get at joggers and bikers to a calm, well behaved dog in only approximately 4 weeks using a prong collar. Of course I did a significant amount of "internet gleaming" to educate myself concerning the proper usage and fit when using the prong. My "mail order DIY collar kit" turned a "significant threat to public safety" into a dog that acts as if a "certified canine behaviorist" spent a great amount of time with her. Also, despite what some people believe, she has transitioned to a martin(d)gale collar and walks calmly beside me using that collar also. 

Not all dogs are alike. Different methods can have different results. Different people have different abilities and skill levels. The combination of all those facts would lead a wise person not to make blanket statements about what is possible and what isn't.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Martingale schmartindale. Still aversive. Move to flat collar and retain results, and then I might be impressed.

I'm probably out. Beginning to see MrsBoats point, lol.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> Martingale schmartindale. Still aversive. Move to flat collar and retain results, and then I might be impressed.
> 
> I'm probably out. Beginning to see MrsBoats point, lol.


I've never really heard of a martingale being aversive. I mean, you could collar pop on a flat collar or a martingale and the action would be considered an aversive, but the collars themselves? Always just figured them for being good as non-slip collars for dogs who have heads smaller than their necks or if someone is worried about a quick release buckle releasing accidentally. If a dog does pull, the pressure from a flat collar and a martingale of similar width actually seems a bit less on the trachea with the martingale (or, like those wide ones for sighthounds, much less pressure).


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

If it's not being used for aversive purposes in this poster's case, then I can't see why a need for using it at all. There has been no reference to owning a sighthound nor any concern over the dog breaching a cheaply constructed closure of a flat collar. 

And again, if it's not being used aversively, then by all means a transition to a flat collar should be and will be easy peasy. Posting of actual vids rather than repetitive, redundant, and superficial words earns bonus points impo.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

...dogs slip collars. All sorts of dogs slip collars. I use martingales on ALL my dogs, and not a single one of them pulls any less or more on it than they would a flat collar (which is to say in most cases none, but sometimes a lot). ALL they do is stop the dog escaping by virtue of having a big neck or little head or being talented at wiggling out.  *They have no aversive action *at all**, above and beyond a flat collar, and most of them are even LESS aversive than a flat collar in case of an owner trying to do a 'leash pop' with them because of the limited stop and way the loop absorbs some shock. They tighten minimally and their fit when NOT tightened is looser than your standard flat collar. The point to which they tighten is, literally, to a fit slightly more than a dog walks around with all the time, unless really, truly, horribly fitted and then they're choking ALL the time. 

I understand your desire to shut this person down and share it, but you aren't going to succeed by sounding like you don't understand what you're talking about.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Yea martingales aren't aversive. They don't tighten forever like a choke chain. I use limited slips for most everyday use (which are a type of martingale really, the loop just lies flatter when not in use) for everyone except fathead Pip because they are either pinheads or weaselly collar-slippers.

I also use them exclusively for everyone for mushing because they actually cause _less_ neckline pressure than flat collars in that context.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

petpeeve said:


> If it's not being used for aversive purposes in this poster's case, then I can't see why a need for using it at all. There has been no reference to owning a sighthound nor any concern over the dog breaching a cheaply constructed closure of a flat collar.
> 
> And again, if it's not being used aversively, then by all means a transition to a flat collar should be and will be easy peasy. Posting of actual vids rather than repetitive, redundant, and superficial words earns bonus points impo.


Okay, so its really not about the martingale then. 

I used regular nylon martingales on several of my pit type fosters as even not being sighthounds, most of them could slip a regular buckle nylon collar unless it was way too tight. I didn't generally even attach a leash to it for walks--mostly used harnesses-- but for potty breaks or attached to the harness with a carabiner as back up.
Eva can slip her nylon collar so it is never used to walk her on its own. She has a pretty normal sized head, not a huge bully head nor a narrow greyhound head.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yeah its amazing how some dogs can slip their collars, Lincoln is one of those dogs it's like his head shrinks or something lol, so I either use a slip lead or a martingale collar or lead on him. Just for safety reasons


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> Yea martingales aren't aversive.





CptJack said:


> They have no aversive action *at all*


Seriously folks ??? ... *sigh*



> I understand your desire to shut this person down and share it, but *you aren't going to succeed by sounding like you don't understand what you're talking about*.


I'm kinda surprised by the bolded part. But anyways. Anyone worth their salt in training / behaviour knows that the mere sound of the metallic links running across the rings can certainly be considered as a potential aversive stimulus, and that the sound itself can very easily become the conditioned punisher especially following any prong collar training - as is the case with the poster in question. As far as me trying to shut them down and gloat as you presume, not my intention I can assure you.



> There's been some prong usage here as long as I've been around, but there has been a shift in attitude though, I think.


Here's the thing. In bygone days there were many posters here who had the balls to stand up regularly and call out posters in situations like this for the greater benefit of the internet-reading community. Paws, et al. Sadly enough she's not around anymore, and apparently neither are the others. In their absence, if no one else is willing to stand up .. well I guess I'll just hafta be that guy. Reluctantly, and humbly I might add, I'll occasionally step into that role if need be and try my best. I suspect it won't compare in some people's eyes though, but hopefully the principle remains and people come away with a more realistic overview of the situation. Bottom line I don't believe it's because P+ is gaining widespread acceptance, it's because there's been a void of intestinal fortitude here at the forum lately.

Let's be honest, conventional wisdom and pretty much the entire training community vehemently advises against treating reactivity with prong collars. It's not me and my opinion, rather, it's trusted science being accepted and applied. Further, if the poster claims miraculous success with their homebrew brand of learning, which also happens to defy conventional wisdom, then I believe we should simply chock it up as the rare exception rather than the rule. However, to post it on a public forum and imply, with an attitude no less, *see, even I can do it with no professional direction, minimal research and limited skills, so similar people should be able to as well* and trumpets it as a viable treatment plan for the average person facing reactivity issues, well, that's crossing the line and a completely different matter now, at least in my opinion it is. It suddenly becomes like the old saying - totally irresponsible at best and absolutely dangerous at worst. And for good reason. 

I hope we can all agree to the above aspect, in particular ???



BTW sass, read carefully and you will realize it's probably more of a WOOF !! for me and not so much a meeeeeoowww.  lol


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Um... not all martingales are chain? Luna's collar is all fabric and is a martingale, which I use because she's slipped other collars on more than one occasion.

That said, I DO know people who use chain martingales aversively with the sound. Or depending on what the dog finds aversive, use the sound as a 'hey, I'm up here' interrupter noise.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Yes, seriously. 

Martingales do not have any aversive action built into their design. Prong collars hurt when you use them. Martingales MIGHT if the dog has a history of choke chain use AND you are using a martingale that is too small AND you happen to be using one that has a chain as part of its design. Frankly I can find a flat collar that involves a chain, is too small and whale on it on leash to make it aversive, but that doesn't make flat collars aversive. 

The number of people claiming to be purely positive on this board has been vanishingly small for as long as I have been here - and everywhere else. Haltis and easy-walk harnesses are more aversive than freaking martingales and are FREQUENTLY recommended. Leash corrections have always been admitted to by posting members of this board. No reward markers, interruptors, the whole nine yards have always been talked about. The few times someone comes along and says 'well, I'm not purely positive' tons of people come along and admit that most people aren't and you know what? They aren't. Never have been. Never will be. 

Prongs for reactivity? Stupid - or ignorant, take your back. The posters tone in places, and particularly toward you? Obnoxious and irritating. 

Calling a Martingale aversive by design or action? Stupid. Lecturing people for their lack of intestinal fortitude? Kind of obnoxious and irritating, frankly.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

And just because I thought of it, I do also remember a time when I witnessed someone being instructed on how to fit a chain martingale with the purpose of popping it for a correction.

I'm not saying I agree with that method or that it's correct use of the tool in any way, but it happened.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Eh, I've seen people instructed on how to pop on a flat collar for a leash correction. I also witnessed someone being taught how to use a nylon leash to 'suitcase' a dog for a correction (attach leash to collar, make loop around stomach, and then pop THAT). 

So, yeah. It's not the tool, it's the desire of people to issue corrections with whatever they have on hand. 

I'm not going to argue a prong is aversive - or an easy walk, or a halti - those function and work at all because they are designed to cause discomfort or pain when the dog pulls and I'm not dumb, but there's nothing inherently present in the design of a martingale that's aversive. Nothing. (Standard disclaimer: The collar fits, the dog is 'normal' and doesn't find collars in general aversive, hasn't been conditioned to fear a sound of a chain, whatever - but if we're going down that route, I've got a dog who finds my washing machine scary - that doesn't mean washing machines are by design dog punishment tools).


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I've got a dog who finds my washing machine scary - that doesn't mean washing machines are by design dog punishment tools).


Yes indeed I passed gas once and had a dog jump, one must be careful.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

So I guess to summarise, it is possible that the poster being referred to is using a martingale aversively that has otherwise not been mentioned, but martingales are not inherently designed to be aversive.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

petpeeve said:


> Martingale schmartindale. Still aversive. Move to flat collar and retain results, and then I might be impressed.
> 
> I'm probably out. Beginning to see MrsBoats point, lol.


Two of my three went from prong to flat collar. Actually . . . from flat to prong to flat. The third never went off flat 'cause she respected the collar and leash all the way through. I tried the prong on my youngest (now two years) when she was six months and absolutely nutty on the leash. She didn't seem to care and was still nutty, so I tossed the prong collar back in the drawer. I tried again, when she was 22 mo, and she got the message. It may require a bit of maturity for the prong to work; some dogs may never reach the required cognative level.

What I like about the prong is that if the dog can get the point, THE DOG IS IN CONTROL. Yes, it's aversive. Not as aversive as it looks. Try one on your leg or your neck and you'll find that it's not pleasant, but not anywhere as bad as it looks. That is, more pressure than pain. (If I was a dog, I think I'd hate a halti more than a prong. Getting your nose jerked down has got to be awful). But my dogs, at least, seem to quickly learn that they can avoid the pressure by keeping low tension on the lead.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> I'm kinda surprised by the bolded part. But anyways. Anyone worth their salt in training / behaviour knows that the mere sound of the metallic links running across the rings can certainly be considered as a potential aversive stimulus, and that the sound itself can very easily become the conditioned punisher especially following any prong collar training - as is the case with the poster in question. As far as me trying to shut them down and gloat as you presume, not my intention I can assure you.


Anyone worth their salt knows that not all martingales or limited slips have a chain component. None of mine do. From my dogs' perspective I don't think they're any different than a flat collar except they slip over their heads to get on/off, they can't slip them, and that if they're wearing them we're probably going mushing or to class. 

So I'll amend my earlier statement to say that they don't necessarily _have_ to be aversive.

These are a few of my limited slips (which again are a type of martingale). Oooo scary chains.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't have my own pictures off the dogs, but my martingales all come from here:
https://www.etsy.com/shop/CollarsByMickey?ref=l2-shopheader-name

They're not just cloth, they're SATIN BROCADE over the nylon. Also wider than most of their other collars, in all but one. Mostly because I ordered too wide, but they're still pretty. And don't have chains. 

Honestly, even a google image search of martingale collar pulls up as many or more images of all-fabric collars as ones with chains.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

Pierce has a 2 inch wide Etsy collar used because of a Trachea problem.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I... have 2" wide collars on a 25lb dog. Which is a wee bit ridiculous, and while still very pretty I can only admit that I had no clear idea how big 2" was and didn't really read the listing all that carefully to start with. He looks like he's wearing a very fancy neck brace.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

yeah, I have had people tell me that my martingales are cruel LOL


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> yeah, I have had people tell me that my martingales are cruel LOL


Probably those people just didn't understand what they were.

I've had to explain to non-dog people family members about Luna's martingale collar because they thought it was a choke collar.

I -do- have a chain martingale as a backup collar, but that's just because it was the only martingale I could find locally to have on hand while her regular collar was being ordered.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

I personally prefer the nylon martingale collar with the chain because I have used the the full nylon martingale and I don't like the release as sometimes the nylon does not slide through the rings properly.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

I actually started using a Martingale for the first time when I was doing Agility as it is so much easier slipping it off over the dog's head than fumbling around trying to get a buckle or those snap type buckles undone. Anyone who does Agility has seen those people who have so much trouble getting their dog's collars off.

I did use a Prong Collar on Kris when she was about 14 months old. She had had a lot of Obedience training but when I got really icy out, I felt safer if she did decide to take a leap as she would not with the Prong on her. I only used it for a while in the winter and have not used it since for training. I either use a choke collar or her martingale, depending on what I am doing as she does slip out of her leather collar unless it is done up tighter than I like it to be. I grew up training dogs with choke collars so know how to use them and she never tightens it up.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Man, you want to count agility I don't even use LIMITED slip. I just use straight up slip leashes. No collar, no limited slip. I still use a martingale or regular collar on Molly just because she's not to the point that I need to have her 'run naked' but Kylie? Yep. Plain old slip lead. It's much, much easier and it's not like she's going to hang herself on it.


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## Shell (Oct 19, 2009)

My comments towards prong collars and other aversives when dealing with what is described as _potential human aggression or reactivity_ are simple-- error on the side of caution. I might give advice if someone's dog is lunging at squirrels, I am not going to recommend a prong if the dog is lunging at humans. Too much room for fallout. 

I say this having met two dogs who were put down due to misguided application of strong aversives led to human injury and dog injury when really, neither dog was human aggressive in that least. Dog aggressive yes, but human injury was totally and completely a by product of the training method and its failure to understand the dogs at hand.


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## Canyx (Jul 1, 2011)

wvasko said:


> Well at 78 years I hope my memory serves me, I don't believe I've ever given advice on how to use prongs on forum because of possible problems that could occur with amateur use.
> 
> I'm sure that there have been some mistakenly identified miraculous cures after all even a blind squirrel occasionally finds a nut. If the right amateur meets the right dog strange things can happen that might benefit both.
> 
> ...


Best and most reasonable answer if there ever was one.


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## BostonBullMama (Apr 20, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Eh, I've seen people instructed on how to pop on a flat collar for a leash correction. * I also witnessed someone being taught how to use a nylon leash to 'suitcase' a dog for a correction (attach leash to collar, make loop around stomach, and then pop THAT).*
> 
> So, yeah. It's not the tool, it's the desire of people to issue corrections with whatever they have on hand.
> 
> I'm not going to argue a prong is aversive - or an easy walk, or a halti - those function and work at all because they are designed to cause discomfort or pain when the dog pulls and I'm not dumb, but there's nothing inherently present in the design of a martingale that's aversive. Nothing. (Standard disclaimer: The collar fits, the dog is 'normal' and doesn't find collars in general aversive, hasn't been conditioned to fear a sound of a chain, whatever - but if we're going down that route, I've got a dog who finds my washing machine scary - that doesn't mean washing machines are by design dog punishment tools).


I've used the "suitcase" method, but to pop that?? OUCH! Not nice. It's definitely not meant to be used like that!!  Poor dog.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

BostonBullMama said:


> I've used the "suitcase" method, but to pop that?? OUCH! Not nice. It's definitely not meant to be used like that!!  Poor dog.


Yeah. For when the throat just isn't sensitive enough, I guess. :/


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Best and most reasonable answer if there ever was one.


Thank you canyx.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Ok, so I'm a bit confused...I haven't been here in over a week, but was getting ready to reply to "dmichaelc" because he/she said I misquoted...so I did due diligence....and began reading this entire thread, because I truly was trying to be honest....and was looking for what I was sure I had read at some point...and during this quest, I see that "dmichaelc" is now banned, so no point in replying to that person. But even with that further reading/scrutiny, I was becoming confused...sigh.

I stand by what I wrote. There are many people that have a very different "overall" understanding of the prong. But here is a big issue I have....during my years steeped in the "competitive obedience world" of course I learned a lot about the prong collar. As a subscriber to a lot of competitive obedience magazines/newspapers, I saw there, and in practice the "oh so wonderful" MICRO-PRONG collar...all the rage for toy dogs who have the gall to not obey their trainer. Quite frankly...it wasn't even about pulling the leash, it was about demanding quicker sits, or demanding quicker this or that...the prong wasn't about being "safe" walking your dog...because by gosh...does anybody know someone that can't hold back a papillon? I attended a seminar given by the most successful "obedience" trainer at the time...her dog has achieved the highest goals ever achieved...and at that seminar, she was revealing her NEW dog...a six month old golden retriever. She made a big show of revealing her NEWEST star...and this wonderful golden PUPPY came out...sporting a prong collar. There were a lot of people in the audience who actually raised their hands, and when she called upon them, they asked WHY PUT A PRONG ON A PUPPY...and her terse reply was things like "better to get precision early on" or other such things. After fielding too many questions in that regard, she simply quit taking audience questions. She's the one who I remember saying prong collars were like "power steering." I equate that to damn the dog, make it easy for the people. 

Why even INVENT the micro-prong? Even the most infirm person can surely control a toy dog. Why use it on a PUPPY? I'm not saying in a VERY FEW CASES, as a "wake-up" call to some very large dogs...it can be a good temporary tool...but if this forum is about ultimately understanding dogs, and successfully training dogs...I would expect that tool to be gathering dust more than it is used.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

OK, so. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I think we've now established that chain martingales can, in certain cases perhaps even in many cases, take on aversive characteristics / properties. Especially when used as a follow-up to prong collar work.

As for cloth-type martingales. By logical extension, is it not possible that they too can take on similar aversive characteristics following prong collar work, by way of the physical sensation of tightening around the neck area of the dog (even if we assume that the cloth collar is a neutral stimulus, ie: my earlier reference to it being a conditioned punisher) ??? I'm deliberately phrasing this in the form of a question rather than a statement because I'm genuinely interested to hear other people's opinions.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

petpeeve said:


> OK, so. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but I think we've now established that chain martingales can, in certain cases perhaps even in many cases, take on aversive characteristics / properties. Especially when used as a follow-up to prong collar work.
> 
> As for cloth-type martingales. By logical extension, is it not possible that they too can take on similar aversive characteristics following prong collar work, by way of the physical sensation of tightening around the neck area of the dog (even if we assume that the cloth collar is a neutral stimulus, ie: my earlier reference to it being a conditioned punisher) ??? I'm deliberately phrasing this in the form of a question rather than a statement because I'm genuinely interested to hear other people's opinions.


Most of the OTCH handlers that I used to train with would work in prongs. At shows, most of them would transition to snug martingales because they most cleanly resembled action of the prong.

I have whippets. I use cloth martingales nearly always, but at their tightest, they fit like a flat collar. I use them because they are roomy and comfortable nearly all the time, but they will tighten down to a safe fitting collar when they need to. They are very wide and padded, so I feel that they are the most humane and safe collars for my dogs. They can't tighten down more than to a safe fit, so there is absolutely no choking action from my collars. None. And my dogs have never worn a prong or chain collar, so there can be no memory of correction.

I think it all depends. If a dog has worked a prong, I think there's a good chance that the tightening of the collar could mimic the prong enough to trigger memory. I think this is dog dependent. Also, it might be a really good thing in some training situations. But I think it depends on the dog and on the degree of sensitizing created by the prong use.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

As trainingjunkie said, properly fitted martingales/limited slips really should not ever tighten to the point of a sensation of choking. But honestly prong collars do not tighten to the point of choking, either, that's not how they work. So I'm not sure why the tightening is even the association being made. I thought the original argument that martingales were aversive was due to the _sound_ of the chain not the action of tightening? Why change the goalposts for fabric martingales?

I feel like we're getting pretty deep into Hypothetical Land. Anything is _possible_. Pip finds the sight of me coming up from the basement with a stack of towels aversive. That doesn't make towels objectively aversive for dogs with a captial D. And if we're going to follow this argument down the rabbit hole, why stop with martingales? Surely by this argument _any_ collar could become aversive to a dog after prong use, simply by virtue of being around the neck and attached to a leash? Pretty soon we won't be able to use any equipment at all by this argument.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> I feel like we're getting pretty deep into Hypothetical Land. Anything is _possible_. Pip finds the sight of me coming up from the basement with a stack of towels aversive. That doesn't make towels objectively aversive for dogs with a captial D. And if we're going to follow this argument down the rabbit hole, why stop with martingales? Surely by this argument _any_ collar could become aversive to a dog after prong use, simply by virtue of being around the neck and attached to a leash? Pretty soon we won't be able to use any equipment at all by this argument.


Yes indeed


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> As trainingjunkie said, properly fitted martingales/limited slips really should not ever tighten to the point of a sensation of choking. But honestly prong collars do not tighten to the point of choking, either, that's not how they work. *Aside from trainingjunkie's mention that they don't choke, nobody said anything about choking. Certainly not me. Anyway, for the purpose of this discussion maybe we can call it discomfort.* So I'm not sure why the tightening is even the association being made. *You're smart enough sass. I think it's pretty easy to make the connection between the two or three collars. Prong = discomfort, and whether by virtue of similar sound or general sensation etc, the dog is able to make an association.* I thought the original argument that martingales were aversive was due to the _sound_ of the chain not the action of tightening? Why change the goalposts for fabric martingales? *The goalposts haven't changed, but maybe your viewpoint of them has. It was merely an extension of thought related to disputing the poster and their use of a prong followed by a 'less aversive' collar, and believing they had the problem licked. And then of course disputing when others claimed that martingales had *no aversive action at all*. Well action, maybe not, but potential for effect regardless of their construction yes. That was my basic point.*
> 
> I feel like we're getting pretty deep into Hypothetical Land. Anything is _possible_. Pip finds the sight of me coming up from the basement with a stack of towels aversive. That doesn't make towels objectively aversive for dogs with a captial D. And if we're going to follow this argument down the rabbit hole, why stop with martingales? Surely by this argument _any_ collar could become aversive to a dog after prong use, simply by virtue of being around the neck and attached to a leash? Pretty soon we won't be able to use any equipment at all by this argument. *And the world will be a better place. Train with your brain not with ... you know. That's what I try to aspire to, and I'm merely hoping more will follow suit.*


My comments in bold. And despite how it may read, it's not intended as a "lecture". lol


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

> Aside from trainingjunkie's mention that they don't choke, nobody said anything about choking. Certainly not me. Anyway, for the purpose of this discussion maybe we can call it discomfort.
> 
> So I'm not sure why the tightening is even the association being made.
> 
> You're smart enough sass. I think it's pretty easy to make the connection between the two or three collars. Prong = discomfort, and whether by virtue of similar sound or general sensation etc, the dog is able to make an association.


But the general sensation ISN'T the same, so why would the dog make the association?


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Why do people get so hung up on the 'aversive' word? And how can anyone pretend the response to correction isn't dependent on the individual dog? My dogs like an open hand slap on the butt and seem to think it's funny when they get whacked on the rump with a rolled newspaper. They interpret it as playful and friendly. Other dogs might freak. Same principal applies to collar design features. I fail to see how a halti (ie, jerking the nose down when the dog pulls) is considered gentle and pressure around the neck is considered cruel. As for prong vs flat vs chain as a mechanism for applying pressure, seems to me that, on physiological grounds, a prong is actually less distressing than a choke or tight Marigale. That is, point contact at many points is less restrictive on blood flow and breathing than a continuous choking band. That's how a garrote works, no? (Those pretty snake collars used in the show ring would make a great garrote). 

If you can read your dog and ensure that the collar isn't causing distress, where's the problem?


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

The only thing that makes one piece of "equipment" better or worse than another is the way it is used. If you want to strangle your dog to death with a choke chain, you can. If you want to punch holes in his neck with a prong collar, you can. If you want to jolt him so hard with a shock collar that you knock him unconscious, you can.

You can also teach dogs to walk perfectly happily on a loose leash with a choke chain, IF YOU KNOW HOW. You can put a prong collar on him and teach him to respond to the tiniest movement of your fingers on the leash and get a precision heeling dog that struts and wags and grins his way around the obedience ring, IF YOU KNOW HOW. You can teach a thorough, careful recall and enforce it with a shock collar at the lowest level that gets a response and have a dog you can trust not to run off and get smeared across a highway, IF YOU KNOW HOW.

Anything can be abused or misused. Many, many people have no clue how to use any of these tools and they use them badly and their dogs suffer. That is terribly sad. It does not mean choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, or whatever are bad things that no one should use ever on any dog. It means people need to educate themselves and learn how to train dogs.


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## sandgrubber (May 21, 2014)

Shep said:


> You can also teach dogs to walk perfectly happily on a loose leash with a choke chain, IF YOU KNOW HOW. You can put a prong collar on him and teach him to respond to the tiniest movement of your fingers on the leash and get a precision heeling dog that struts and wags and grins his way around the obedience ring, IF YOU KNOW HOW. You can teach a thorough, careful recall and enforce it with a shock collar at the lowest level that gets a response and have a dog you can trust not to run off and get smeared across a highway, IF YOU KNOW HOW.
> 
> Anything can be abused or misused. Many, many people have no clue how to use any of these tools and they use them badly and their dogs suffer. That is terribly sad. It does not mean choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, or whatever are bad things that no one should use ever on any dog. It means people need to educate themselves and learn how to train dogs.


Training dogs does not come naturally to some of us. I'm pretty good at reading the signals my dogs give me, but I'm rotten at dancing, and I've never been able to get the timing right for clicker training. I don't know how to teach Patty not to lunge out at her nemesis bike rider (recumbent bike, carries and uses pepper spray, rides our bike path a few times a week at the same times that we walk, she wants to get him) or the occasional armadillo, deer, pit bull, chicken, or chihuahua. At 8 mo, she didn't get the message when I tried a prong collar (properly fitted, no snapping, just letting her pull as she chooses ... or not); if there was pain, she didn't notice it. Excitement over rode pain. No question that she'd punch holes in her neck if I kept on, so I didn't. She's two years now. Tried the prong collar again. She got it . . . no cringing, no fear reaction, no change in enthusiasm for going for walkies...but NO MORE LUNGING. I can go back to the flat collar now. 

Careful and experimental use of different tools can help those of us that don't have a knack at dog training. OF COURSE, you need to be able to read your dog. Distress, fear, trauma are not good for teaching and anything that causes traumatic reaction should be avoided.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Shep said:


> The only thing that makes one piece of "equipment" better or worse than another is the way it is used. If you want to strangle your dog to death with a choke chain, you can. If you want to punch holes in his neck with a prong collar, you can. If you want to jolt him so hard with a shock collar that you knock him unconscious, you can.
> 
> You can also teach dogs to walk perfectly happily on a loose leash with a choke chain, IF YOU KNOW HOW. You can put a prong collar on him and teach him to respond to the tiniest movement of your fingers on the leash and get a precision heeling dog that struts and wags and grins his way around the obedience ring, IF YOU KNOW HOW. You can teach a thorough, careful recall and enforce it with a shock collar at the lowest level that gets a response and have a dog you can trust not to run off and get smeared across a highway, IF YOU KNOW HOW.
> 
> Anything can be abused or misused. Many, many people have no clue how to use any of these tools and they use them badly and their dogs suffer. That is terribly sad. It does not mean choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, or whatever are bad things that no one should use ever on any dog. It means people need to educate themselves and learn how to train dogs.


Here, prongs or any correction collar arent allowed in the obedience ring (in competition, and even in some training places) shock collars are also banned in many training establishments or allowed only in class. Not that they are bad tools, they are just so commonly misused.

I myself have only used a shock collar once (to train snake aversion) and a prong twice, but both dogs I used the prongs on outweighed me by about 50 lbs, and I always used them as a secondary collar, never by themselves.

Would I use one again? If I thought I had to, but I hope I have gained enough knowledge to not need to


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Shep said:


> The only thing that makes one piece of "equipment" better or worse than another is the way it is used. If you want to strangle your dog to death with a choke chain, you can. If you want to punch holes in his neck with a prong collar, you can. If you want to jolt him so hard with a shock collar that you knock him unconscious, you can.
> 
> You can also teach dogs to walk perfectly happily on a loose leash with a choke chain, IF YOU KNOW HOW. You can put a prong collar on him and teach him to respond to the tiniest movement of your fingers on the leash and get a precision heeling dog that struts and wags and grins his way around the obedience ring, IF YOU KNOW HOW. You can teach a thorough, careful recall and enforce it with a shock collar at the lowest level that gets a response and have a dog you can trust not to run off and get smeared across a highway, IF YOU KNOW HOW.
> 
> Anything can be abused or misused. Many, many people have no clue how to use any of these tools and they use them badly and their dogs suffer. That is terribly sad. It does not mean choke chains, prong collars, shock collars, or whatever are bad things that no one should use ever on any dog. It means people need to educate themselves and learn how to train dogs.


Awesome post! Totally agree.


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## Shep (May 16, 2013)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> Here, prongs or any correction collar arent allowed in the obedience ring (in competition, and even in some training places) shock collars are also banned in many training establishments or allowed only in class. Not that they are bad tools, they are just so commonly misused.


Prongs and shock collars are not allowed in the ring at any AKC obedience trial, or any other organization that I'm aware of (UKC, ASCA, CDSP, etc.) In fact, AKC doesn't even allow them anywhere on the show grounds. They think it would make a bad impression on the general public who come to spectate, which seems a little odd since so many of the "general public" use these collars themselves (and often use them very badly). Choke collars are fine, though.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't do obedience so I can't remark there, but I know that correction collars aren't allowed on the grounds of our local NADAC trials. Well, e-collars and at a couple prongs. Choke chains would probably get a pass. No pull harnesses and haltis are fine.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Prongs, chokes, etc aren't even allowed in the training club I primarily use. Others do allow them.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Our club allows them as a means of getting the dogs into and out of class, but demands/requires regular flat collars for all training. That applies to any sort of 'easy walk' device as well.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Shep said:


> In fact, AKC doesn't even allow them anywhere on the show grounds. They think it would make a bad impression on the general public who come to spectate, which seems a little odd since so many of the "general public" use these collars themselves (and often use them very badly).


I wouldn't want the misfortune of being situated for stays, right beside another dog who just got wailed on or fried in the parking lot by some yahoo. There's a lot more to it than public perception. 

There's also a presumption that the handler and dog are skilled enough that such devices aren't necessary. In my personal opinion, really it boils down to the basic essence of competitive obedience: if a person can teach a dog to work within the general proximity of other dogs, and to heel on and especially off-leash as well, it pretty much negates any need for a prong even outside the ring .....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> I wouldn't want the misfortune of being situated for stays, right beside another dog who just got wailed on or fried in the parking lot by some yahoo. There's a lot more to it than public perception.
> 
> There's also a presumption that the handler and dog are skilled enough that such devices aren't necessary. In my personal opinion, really it boils down to the basic essence of competitive obedience: if a person can teach a dog to work within the general proximity of other dogs, and to heel on and especially off-leash as well, it pretty much negates any need for a prong even outside the ring .....


True, and I agree ... but the key word here is "IF".


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I went to a seminar with some trainers who have multiple OTCH dogs between them, and they use prongs from day one. Not as hard core corrections, but as part of the way they train the heel. Sure, there are a lot of non-prong ways to train the heel, but I wouldn't say that these two women aren't good trainers. They have just decided that it works as a method for them, and it certainly gets them what they want (high performing OTCH dogs who look like very happy workers). So I don't think it's fair to say that if someone were just a better trainer they wouldn't use a prong or an ecollar. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them of course.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The main place I train does allow prongs. For the most part they are very positive trainers, though they will recommend prongs occasionally (Watson is one of two or three dogs I've seen them recommend a prong for). Generally it's just to give additional control for young dogs who are wild and out of control, and when the handlers are competent enough to use them correctly.


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

None of the places we've done classes at allow any kind of corrective collar, except nosework. But then they are only allowed outside of the actual class work, and in a trial you have to use a regular non-slip collar or a non restrictive harness anyway.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

sandgrubber said:


> Training dogs does not come naturally to some of us. I'm pretty good at reading the signals my dogs give me, but I'm rotten at dancing, and I've never been able to get the timing right for clicker training. I don't know how to teach Patty not to lunge out at her nemesis bike rider (recumbent bike, carries and uses pepper spray, rides our bike path a few times a week at the same times that we walk, she wants to get him) or the occasional armadillo, deer, pit bull, chicken, or chihuahua. At 8 mo, she didn't get the message when I tried a prong collar (properly fitted, no snapping, just letting her pull as she chooses ... or not); if there was pain, she didn't notice it. Excitement over rode pain. No question that she'd punch holes in her neck if I kept on, so I didn't. She's two years now. Tried the prong collar again. She got it . . . no cringing, no fear reaction, no change in enthusiasm for going for walkies...but NO MORE LUNGING. I can go back to the flat collar now.
> 
> Careful and experimental use of different tools can help those of us that don't have a knack at dog training. OF COURSE, you need to be able to read your dog. Distress, fear, trauma are not good for teaching and anything that causes traumatic reaction should be avoided.


So, I'm not allowed to use cut and paste, and I still can't figure out how to "correctly" pick and choose from multiple quotes...so this will have to do. The above, I hope correctly "quoted" blurb is Sandgrubber's response to the totally wonderful response from "Shep." Totally awesome response, Shep. 

Sandgrubber, your above quote tells me that for whatever reason, you are hamstringing yourself by stating (thusly believing) that training dogs is somehow a "natural" thing, and if you just get control of a given "device" all of your troubles are solved. You went from saying you weren't able to get the timing right for clicker training...and the next sentence was your dog being uncontrollable while walking....Tons of issues to be resolved in between...if you decided to try clicker training for the first time in order to squelch a behavior that was already inherently positive for your dog, of course, that set you up for failure. 

The problem I have with your post, is that, according to you the prong didn't work at 8 months, so you quit using it, went back when she was two, and it suddenly works. So what happened between 8 months and two years of age? Did you not walk her? What did YOU learn with your dog between 8 months when she didn't respond to the prong, but suddenly at 2 years of age she respects it? What was your intervening "device" or "method" to get through the time between 8 months and two years? The HAPPY story would be that you truly worked on yourself, so that at 2 years of age, you wouldn't need the prong....but obviously, that happy story didn't happen...so I'd truly love to know what happened between 8 months and 2 years.

Bottom line...PLEASE don't say you don't have a "knack" for dog training...to me that is what people say who want a quick fix. Learning about dogs, learning about behavior, learning ANYTHING takes TIME and EFFORT on the part of the PERSON who has the responsibility of any animal. This is why I loved Shep's post...and is why I still wonder about what you learned about Patty between 8 months and 2 years...because it appears you didn't learn much if you went BACK to the prong.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

PaddiB said:


> Bottom line...PLEASE don't say you don't have a "knack" for dog training...to me that is what people say who want a quick fix. Learning about dogs, learning about behavior, learning ANYTHING takes TIME and EFFORT on the part of the PERSON who has the responsibility of any animal. This is why I loved Shep's post...and is why I still wonder about what you learned about Patty between 8 months and 2 years...because it appears you didn't learn much if you went BACK to the prong.


I really think this is not true some people do have a natural way with dogs, I know I do that is why I love training them to do daily tasks. Many people do not have this and that is why they work at learning to train. But I have seen many even with schooling suck at train a pet rock much less a dog (and not for a lack of trying), to know you have issues trading but to keep at it makes a good dog owner



sandgrubber said:


> At 8 mo, she didn't get the message when I tried a prong collar (properly fitted, no snapping, just letting her pull as she chooses ... or not); if there was pain, she didn't notice it. Excitement over rode pain. *No question that she'd punch holes in her neck if I kept on, so I didn't.* She's two years now. Tried the prong collar again. She got it . . . no cringing, no fear reaction, no change in enthusiasm for going for walkies...but NO MORE LUNGING. I can go back to the flat collar now.
> 
> Careful and experimental use of different tools can help those of us that don't have a knack at dog training. OF COURSE, you need to be able to read your dog. Distress, fear, trauma are not good for teaching and anything that causes traumatic reaction should be avoided.


 The bolded part tell me that the dog was not making progress and was at risk of injury--I to would have rethought the method and see if something else would work. The maturing of the dog could also have been a factor as to why the prong worked the 2nd time.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

> The maturing of the dog could also have been a factor as to why the prong worked the 2nd time.


This is exactly what happened with Clyde. Walks with him as an adolescent was 2-3 miles of him trying to pull my arm out of its socket no matter what we tried. Putting the prong on him resulted in the least unpleasant pulling, which meant my arm wouldn't hurt when we finished the walk.

Nothing really changed until he matured. My dad tried to train him to heel with leash pops/dominance and wild adolescent Clyde was just as wild and unconcerned as he had been before. The only thing that made him pull less was age. By 3 years old, he would put almost no tension on the leash. The slightest shift in the leash would make him look at me for direction. He is still that way now as an old dog.

But even now, if I put on a flat collar, back to him yanking my arm around...


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

elrohwen said:


> I went to a seminar with some trainers who have multiple OTCH dogs between them, and they use prongs from day one. Not as hard core corrections, but as part of the way they train the heel. Sure, there are a lot of non-prong ways to train the heel, but I wouldn't say that these two women aren't good trainers. They have just decided that it works as a method for them, and it certainly gets them what they want (high performing OTCH dogs who look like very happy workers). So I don't think it's fair to say that if someone were just a better trainer they wouldn't use a prong or an ecollar. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them of course.


Elrohwen..and any others who agree with the above...let's put this in perspective. Absolutely, this thread has morphed from actually controlling a dog in real life situations into those people who have ABSOLUTELY no problems controlling a dog, but they simply want the threat of the prong to produce the minute movements in an already controlled environment in order to get the best score in an artificial event. So, let's agree that there are well-establish dog trainers out there that who DON'T have an issue controlling their dog when skateboard guy goes by, but they are using a prong to get perfect healing and perfect sits. 

Truly, we need to be perfectly honest about the context of what is going on here. I went back just now and RE-read this entire thread...and I mentioned the ridiculousness of the micro-prong collar...and sure enough...someone brought up some old ladies and a toy dog, which was supposed to counter my views on why a papillon should never be on a prong! Really??? The trainer involved with those old ladies didn't have the ability to show them how to control their dog? The ONLY recourse was to put a 5 pound dog on a prong collar???? Does anybody else think this is absurd?

I was an instructor in public classes in two different obedience clubs for over 20 years. The two clubs didn't like each other, but they trained on different nights at the same facility...a military facility at which I was assigned...I joined both clubs because I was simply wanted to LEARN. Both clubs offered public classes because that money is how they existed. My last year with one of those clubs, I was the head trainer in the "basic" class...don't know what it is called these days....level one...whatever. During my tenure with that particular club, I garnered a ton of awards with two different breeds...and back then there used to be tournaments for the elite in obedience competitions, of which I participated with my GSD...don't know if those tournaments still exist today...but in any event...I EARNED my chops regarding training dogs. So, in that last class, was a young woman with a young (8 month old) rottweiler. The 8 month old PUPPY was on a prong. At that time, rottweilers were big in the news...they were on their way into the fabricated abyss of the pit bull. The poor woman handling this PUPPY was obviously terrified of her own dog because the dog didn't "listen" to her. I worked with her over the many weeks (it was an 8 week class)...and I took special interest in her because the DOG wasn't the problem. This rottweiler puppy was LEARNING that if she showed her teeth, people backed off....so when I got this pup in my class, and I asked to take the leash, and the instant I stopped, or asked her to sit or whatever...this 8 month old puppy DID threaten me with an aggressive posture and I LAUGHED at her and stood firm...the dog went nuts...she made a BIG show of covering my hands that were holding her leash with her mouth....to anyone outside that ring, it would have looked like a bite, but it wasn't a BITE...this puppy was TESTING in a bold manner because NOBODY ever told her that behavior simply didn't work. 

OMG...the "POWERS" to be in that dog club were HORRIFIED that I allowed this EIGHT MONTH OLD puppy to grasp my hands, and I didn't correct her. I assured them I was fine, the PUPPY didn't bite me...she was simply exploring avenues of control. We made HUGE progress with this dog over the weeks...she was a PERFECTLY typical rottie pup...but I had begun to hear "chatter" in the background that I was "handling" all of this wrong...because "who allows a dog to show aggression without a response????" Well...um...a person who realized the rott pup wasn't being aggressive...but had I not intervened, WOULD have embraced aggression...The "club powers" were ALL over me by the end of that 8 week session...that rottie pup was doing great, but that didn't FIT what they were about....because I can cite dozens of "experiences" where this club was in love with dominance rolls and a lot of people and dogs got hurt. 

So that last night...this beautiful rottie pup was listening to the owners....I PROVED that club wrong....But I got blind-sided...there was a locally-known "expert" in rottweilers that night at the final class...and the "powers" of that club POUNCED on that poor owner, who was HAPPY that she got the funny beautiful puppy she hoped due to our eight weeks...and while I was shaking hands with all of the owners of the others in my class, I hear a scream of a dog outside. And what do I see? This "supposed" expert in Rotties, has STRUNG UP AN 8 MONTH OLD PUPPY ON A PRONG COLLAR. She is literally dangling in the air on a PRONG COLLAR. Apparently, that club chose to PUNISH this dog for it's original sin, rather than BELIEVE ME that there WAS NO SIN. So DON'T tell me that there aren't EDUCATED people out there who DON'T abuse the prong.

So...Elrohwen...AND Sandgrubber...I challenge your being enamored with the prong as some sort of panacea...Sandgrubber because what did you DO between 8 months and two years and the prong being ineffective at 8 months and suddenly effective at 2 years...and with Elrohwen....ACTUAL TRAINERS who have competed over many, many years...DON'T NEED A PRONG to control their dogs....they are using a prong to INTIMIDATE PRECISE MOVEMENTS...that is HARDLY a case for the use of a prong from someone whose dog simply doesn't listen on a basic walk. 

This isn't about martingales, or prongs or chokes....for sure I get along with dogs better than I do people, thus, I guess what I write, or how I write it pisses people off...but I'm simply flabbergasted at the posts in this thread...except for those from Shep...he/she GETS IT.


Like I've said....I've been in both the pet and competition obedience world....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> Elrohwen..and any others who agree with the above...let's put this in perspective. Absolutely, this thread has morphed from actually controlling a dog in real life situations into those people who have ABSOLUTELY no problems controlling a dog, but they simply want the threat of the prong to produce the minute movements in an already controlled environment in order to get the best score in an artificial event. So, let's agree that there are well-establish dog trainers out there that who DON'T have an issue controlling their dog when skateboard guy goes by, but they are using a prong to get perfect healing and perfect sits.
> 
> Truly, we need to be perfectly honest about the context of what is going on here. I went back just now and RE-read this entire thread...and I mentioned the ridiculousness of the micro-prong collar...and sure enough...someone brought up some old ladies and a toy dog, which was supposed to counter my views on why a papillon should never be on a prong! Really??? The trainer involved with those old ladies didn't have the ability to show them how to control their dog? The ONLY recourse was to put a 5 pound dog on a prong collar???? Does anybody else think this is absurd?
> 
> ...


1005 words..... Saying not much of nothing.... 



> So that last night...this beautiful rottie pup was listening to the owners....I PROVED that club wrong....But I got blind-sided...there was a locally-known "expert" in rottweilers that night at the final class...and the "powers" of that club POUNCED on that poor owner, who was HAPPY that she got the funny beautiful puppy she hoped due to our eight weeks...and while I was shaking hands with all of the owners of the others in my class, I hear a scream of a dog outside. And what do I see? This "supposed" expert in Rotties, has STRUNG UP AN 8 MONTH OLD PUPPY ON A PRONG COLLAR. She is literally dangling in the air on a PRONG COLLAR. Apparently, that club chose to PUNISH this dog for it's original sin, rather than BELIEVE ME that there WAS NO SIN. So DON'T tell me that there aren't EDUCATED people out there who DON'T abuse the prong.


There are two sides to every story..... I would like to hear the clubs side.....


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Paddi, do you think it is wrong to use a bit in a horse's mouth?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

PaddiB, you aren't making people angry because of what you're saying or how you're saying it. You're making people frustrated because you don't seem to be saying *anything* coherent. Your point waffles and changes from one post to the next (or seems to), contradicts itself, and you are apparently not reading much of what's being posted here and understanding it. Particularly if you're agreeing with Shep and being 'flabbergasted' by the rest of us.

As for the drift in the thread, well, yes. It was changed to uses other than raw control and management and ways it could be used as a precise training tool somewhere around the point that Shep said it was nothing more or less than a tool (like many others) and as good as the person using it - could be used abusively or could be used for fine tuning of behaviors like heel. Then people talked about that. 

No mystery there. Except that Shep gets it and people discussing that are bewildering for you. Since Shep... agreed with us and we agree with Shep.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't think stringing a dog up in the air is a good technique regardless of the kind of collar the dog is wearing. I'm not sure how that story proves anything about prongs in particular.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

PaddiB said:


> So...Elrohwen...AND Sandgrubber...I challenge your being enamored with the prong as some sort of panacea...Elrohwen....ACTUAL TRAINERS who have competed over many, many years...DON'T NEED A PRONG to control their dogs....they are using a prong to INTIMIDATE PRECISE MOVEMENTS...that is HARDLY a case for the use of a prong from someone whose dog simply doesn't listen on a basic walk.


When did I ever say it was? 

Some people have said that only poor trainers use a prong because they don't have the skills to train without it. I was making the point that there are plenty of trainers who do have the skills, but they chose to use one anyway for reasons of their own. Prong use != poor trainer. I didn't say anything in that post about people trying to get a dog to listen during a walk

I really don't have any idea what else you were trying to say. I find your posts impossible to follow.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Shep said:


> It means people need to educate themselves and learn how to train dogs.


 Taken as a separate quote, I'll give this the wisdom award ^. 

Although I'd qualify it by adding that once people DO educate themselves, raise their consciousness and skill levels, .. their reliance upon using restrictive or suppressive 'tools' such as training collars will quickly fall by the wayside. I'll call it liberation. Or perhaps a sudden, defining moment of moral clarity. Whatever. 

And then after *that*, hopefully, we can sit around the campfire and sing kumbaya, together one and all, blissfully ensconced in eternal peace.


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## LittleFr0g (Jun 11, 2007)

> So, I'm not allowed to use cut and paste, and I still can't figure out how to "correctly" pick and choose from multiple quotes...so this will have to do.


Do please show me where this was said to you, lol. 



> someone brought up some old ladies and a toy dog, which was supposed to counter my views on why a papillon should never be on a prong! Really??? The trainer involved with those old ladies didn't have the ability to show them how to control their dog? The ONLY recourse was to put a 5 pound dog on a prong collar???? Does anybody else think this is absurd?


You clearly either have issues with reading comprehension, or you are willfully ignoring large parts of people's posts in order to push your agenda forward. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, and refresh your memory, since the poster you're referring to was me. As I said in my original post, the elderly ladies had SEVERE arthritis in their hands and flat out COULDN'T hold onto the leash while their dog was pulling. Given that the dog still had to be taken for walks, the trainer supported the use of the prong collar as a temporary measure WHILE the dog was trained using positive methods in class to walk politely on leash. I'm also quite amazed at your ability to somehow deduct that the dog in question only weighed 5 lbs, given that I never once mentioned it's weight or breed, only that it was a toy breed, lol.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> Elrohwen..and any others who agree with the above...let's put this in perspective. Absolutely, this thread has morphed from actually controlling a dog in real life situations into those people who have ABSOLUTELY no problems controlling a dog, but they simply want the threat of the prong to produce the minute movements in an already controlled environment in order to get the best score in an artificial event. So, let's agree that there are well-establish dog trainers out there that who DON'T have an issue controlling their dog when skateboard guy goes by, but they are using a prong to get perfect healing and perfect sits.
> 
> Truly, we need to be perfectly honest about the context of what is going on here. I went back just now and RE-read this entire thread...and I mentioned the ridiculousness of the micro-prong collar...and sure enough...someone brought up some old ladies and a toy dog, which was supposed to counter my views on why a papillon should never be on a prong! Really??? The trainer involved with those old ladies didn't have the ability to show them how to control their dog? The ONLY recourse was to put a 5 pound dog on a prong collar???? Does anybody else think this is absurd?
> 
> ...


Yes, I also would be interested to know your views on bits in horses' mouths. but FIRST I would like to know how much experience riding horses you have before you give any opinions, so then I know whether or not to take them seriously.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I also agree with CptJack that every person here agrees with Shep. It seems to be your reading comprehension that is lacking if you think anybody is saying anything fundamentally different.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

CptJack said:


> PaddiB, you aren't making people angry because of what you're saying or how you're saying it. You're making people frustrated because you don't seem to be saying *anything* coherent. Your point waffles and changes from one post to the next (or seems to), contradicts itself, and you are apparently not reading much of what's being posted here and understanding it. Particularly if you're agreeing with Shep and being 'flabbergasted' by the rest of us.
> 
> As for the drift in the thread, well, yes. It was changed to uses other than raw control and management and ways it could be used as a precise training tool somewhere around the point that Shep said it was nothing more or less than a tool (like many others) and as good as the person using it - could be used abusively or could be used for fine tuning of behaviors like heel. Then people talked about that.
> 
> No mystery there. Except that Shep gets it and people discussing that are bewildering for you. Since Shep... agreed with us and we agree with Shep.


I'm sorry that people are frustrated by what I write, and perhaps I am failing at being succinct. Thank you CPT Jack, after reading what I wrote. it probably did seem "incoherent" but perhaps it was because the discussion DID morph from control of an uncontrollable dog to people wanting accolades from a controllable dog. I don't understand the whole "shep and US" THING...sort of makes me think the "us" doesn't include "me" who also agrees with Shep regarding the views of the prong.

So let me TRY to be more clear and succinct...I think training dogs is more about the attitude of the person who is trying to evoke a response from the dog, than the dog itself...meaning...that whether you use a prong or a slip, harness, gentle leader, or WHATEVER...how that dog reacts and how the HUMAN reacts to the dog's reaction is training. Why do you think I was so concerned about the time lapse of the original post? Not every body has the luxury of simply putting a dog away until it is too old to mis-behave, or old enough to "respect" a prong. If someone tried to use a prong at some point and it didn't work, and they tried a two years later and it did...I HAVE to question their capacity to understand dogs! I don't understand why some people think I am being incoherent by ASKING what they did or didn't do in those intervening years. It is sort of important to know that.

And just to be clear...you are saying you and this forum doesn't understand me...and believe me, I am just as confused. This list is all about Non-adversives...and fairies and unicorns and not actually telling our dogs they are doing anything wrong....and yet....HAIL THE PRONG COLLAR. Well...yes...I DO let my dogs know that they can't do something...and I have owned and still own very powerful dogs, and I still have a prong collar gathering dust on a hanger and that dust is over 20 years old. And in that 20 years I have dealt with rescue dogs and elite obedience dogs, and since my "initial" infatuation with the prong, I have never used it since. Have I made myself any more clearer?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

PaddiB said:


> And just to be clear...you are saying you and this forum doesn't understand me...and believe me, I am just as confused. This list is all about Non-adversives...and fairies and unicorns and not actually telling our dogs they are doing anything wrong....and yet....HAIL THE PRONG COLLAR.


Where in the world would you get that idea? There are all sorts of people on this forum who train all sorts of ways.

I'm not 100% positive, but if I'm giving advice over the internet to someone, you can bet I'm probably going to recommend positive techniques only. If I do mention something non-positive, it's going to be with a disclaimer for the poster to find a trainer in person to help them. That's just the nature of offering dog training advice over the internet.

And if someone asks about a prong collar, I'll share my experience with it, while recommending they work with a trainer if they've never used one before. I don't think anybody here said that prong collars were the best thing ever, just that they can be a useful tool for some dogs and some situations.

You read a lot of things into other people's comments that just aren't there.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

BigLittle said:


> Paddi, do you think it is wrong to use a bit in a horse's mouth?


Depends on the bit.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> And just to be clear...you are saying you and this forum doesn't understand me...and believe me, I am just as confused. This list is all about Non-adversives...and fairies and unicorns and not actually telling our dogs they are doing anything wrong....and yet....HAIL THE PRONG COLLAR.


Wait, what?


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

elrohwen;4393513 You read a lot of things into other people's comments that just aren't there.[/QUOTE said:


> With all due respect, you do the same with me.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

PaddiB said:


> With all due respect, you do the same with me.


But I'm quoting the exact words that you are using. You haven't quoted anything from my posts to back up the things you think I've said.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

Just for this once instance we'll call it "straw unicorns and fairies" or maybe even "strawALLHAILPRONG."


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

In a discussion on prong collars, people who used them are going to talk about them. Ideas on humane use of them will be thrown around. The people who have found them to work well on their dogs are going to mention it. Said posters have generally said it was after trying lots of other things.

Apparently that means the general attitude is "All hail the prong"?

It's clear that for some dogs, the prong acts like a horse's bit. It's used to communicate via touch and sound from very slight leash movements...

Approriate use of bits in horses isn't a magical pancea, it's what works for that horse with that rider. Appropriate use of prongs on dogs that are overpowering the owner, same thing.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

PaddiB said:


> I don't understand the whole "shep and US" THING...sort of makes me think the "us" doesn't include "me" who also agrees with Shep regarding the views of the prong.


No, the point is that you seem to agree with Shep and think that the rest of us are idiots. We also agree with Shep, and are basically saying the same thing she said, but somehow you've missed that over 9 pages of this thread so CptJack was pointing it out. 

We are all having a decent discussion about the pros and cons of prong collar use. You're the one who is disagreeing with everyone for some reason.


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

> No, the point is that you seem to agree with Shep and think that the rest of us are idiots. We also agree with Shep, and are basically saying the same thing she said, but somehow you've missed that over 9 pages of this thread so CptJack was pointing it out.


Yes. This. 

You agree with Shep. You haven't agreed with another person/have disagreed with them at length (from what I can tell). We all agree with Shep and have from pretty much post 1. "It's a tool, and all how you use it, just like any other tool." That is... odd.

I think Sass nailed the reason that was happening, though.


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## Effisia (Jun 20, 2013)

Goodness! I'm probably one of the most force-free people on the forum (I'm even studying to be a dog trainer with people who DO NOT allow prongs, chokes, any aversives at all for anything), and even I don't try to say that it's all 100% positive, never tell your dog they did anything wrong, sunshine and unicorn farts or you're wrong or abusive. Hahaha.

Personally, I wouldn't use a prong. Not just because the training methods I'm studying don't condone them, but I just frankly don't trust myself to use tools like that absolutely properly. AND both of my dogs are pretty soft when it comes to aversives.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> And just to be clear...you are saying you and this forum doesn't understand me...and believe me, I am just as confused. This list is all about Non-adversives...and fairies and unicorns and not actually telling our dogs they are doing anything wrong....and yet....HAIL THE PRONG COLLAR. Well...yes...I DO let my dogs know that they can't do something...and I have owned and still own very powerful dogs, and I still have a prong collar gathering dust on a hanger and that dust is over 20 years old. And in that 20 years I have dealt with rescue dogs and elite obedience dogs, and since my "initial" infatuation with the prong, I have never used it since. Have I made myself any more clearer?


Just to be clear.... You are NEVER clear.... You contradict yourself, agree with those that do not agree with you, disagree with others....

Basically you talk in circles and wander off in all sorts of directions....


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> This list is all about Non-adversives...and fairies and unicorns and not actually telling our dogs they are doing anything wrong....and yet....HAIL THE PRONG COLLAR.


This thread is not all about non adversives..... Many of use adversives... Physical corrections, corrections, etc.

I got my start in dogs using nearly pure compulsion training... To this day, I still use compulsion methods at times. And will continue to do so.....


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes an aversive is whatever the dogs sees as unpleasant, not the human. I have one dog here that if I LOOK at her too strongly she is a puddle. Lincoln OTOH, I could "crank and yank" and CM him all day long and he wouldnt be none the worse for wear, it would be pissed, but he would get over it. Now, take away something he WANTS, like the opportunity to work and he will do WHATEVER I want just to get it / do it. Of course I wouldnt do this, but in theory, I could even get him to do something he knewhe would hurt himself on if he knew it would get him what he wanted (of course I would never do that! Just using that as an example).


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

BigLittle said:


> In a discussion on prong collars, people who used them are going to talk about them. Ideas on humane use of them will be thrown around. The people who have found them to work well on their dogs are going to mention it. Said posters have generally said it was after trying lots of other things.
> 
> Apparently that means the general attitude is "All hail the prong"?
> 
> ...


Okay...weird, but I get it...for some reason, the "bit" in a horse's mouth seems to be a point of contention...I blew it off when it was first mentioned as some sort of PARALELL to the prong collar. Why did I blow it off? Because there are just as many "LEVELS" of bit pain (use the word intimidation if that suits you better) by the variety of bits used in horses as there are collars on dogs. For those of you who actually WANT me to answer whether or not I agree with using a bit on a horse....do you KNOW exactly how many different bits are OUT there? Do you actually want to know about double bits and double reins and this and that torture devices used on horses to get them to PLEASE the human eye?

Well...since many of you think I am avoiding this...don't blame me if this gets a bit long. I was friends with, and lived close to people who had the same breed of dog I did. They were into horse racing and lived close to a local track. I took care of their horses when they had to be away. They dabbled in racing, had some success...I went to some of the races. When one of their horses retired, my friend decided to keep this gelding and train him for hunter/jumper in order to sell him. He was a spirited horse...as MOST THOROUGHBREDS are...I wasn't there for most of his "post racing" training or showing...the few shows I went to in order to support her as a friend, all I saw was a very energetic horse that she STRUGGLED to keep under control....at one hunter class....between classes, she was riding him and he began to back up, a bit agitated, and she could NOT stop him from backing up. He backed up into people...but he wasn't kicking at them...he wasn't a mean horse...but he was obviously distressed. Days later...I was at her house when she was saddling him, and I saw the bit...it was a HORRIBLE looking thing...hugely thick, with a huge "U" shape in the middle of it...that "U" portion when the reins would pull tight would slam against is upper palate. I expressed horror/concern about this bit...and my friend told me "that was the only thing that kept him in control" Well...um...since I wasn't a "horse" person....I didn't state the obvious that a few weekends before she had no control of that horse despite that bit.

It was during this time that the handler I hired for one of my dogs was an ex-USET (US Equestrian Team) student. When my friend realized this, she asked if I could set up a "training" time with this person...I did, and I attended. The FIRST thing my handler told my friend when she showed the bit was WHY WAS SHE USING SUCH A HARSH BIT. Like I said...blah blah...I sat in the stand of this quiet arena while my friend took lessons from my dog's handler...The horse, as I knew him with my friend didn't have much conformation...he moved choppily....I thought....no wonder he didn't make it as a racehorse....but as time went on...my handler was giving my friend COMMANDS (YES, she was COMMANDING THE PERSON...NOT THE HORSE) concerning both her feet and her hands, I saw a VERY different horse. I actually thought I had gone to sleep and woke up to a different horse and rider...it was THAT dramatic a change...that defiant, ill-structured horse with a choppy gait, became, under the tutelage of someone who knew better, showed brilliance....He was superbly put together, but yet, my friend couldn't maintain it, and the horse, due to her hands, again became a bit of a monster. 

So...this is my response to whoever was the first person who asked me about a bit in a horses mouth. It was an INANE question. Not only are there degrees of potential pain in bits of horses, just as there in collars on dogs...HOW a person uses even the most punishable bit on a horse decides how effective that bit is...just like the prong...and JUST like what Shep said...I don't UNDERSTAND why people are leaping to the fact I agree with what Shep wrote to their saying I somehow think everybody else is an idiot....I am simply giving an OPINION as to why I both agree with Shep and my own experiences, and the reason, until now, that I dismissed the whole BIT thing with horses is because a "bit" isn't just a "bit"....just like a collar isn't just a collar. 

I have seen horses trained to do to supremely intricate maneuvers who have never felt a bit in their mouth, just as I've seen dogs do similar feats without ever feeling a collar. The last few titles I obtained on my dogs were obtained by training WITHOUT a collar. Why? Because I figured out what motivated my dogs. But you can't do THAT without first being able to simply walk your dog down the street without it going nuts. So....despite the fact that everybody seems to want to KNOW how I feel about bits in horses...NOBODY has explained to me why various people have said the prong didn't work with their adolescent puppies....and boom....suddenly seven months later....the prong now works....Ive repeatedly asked what happened in those many months....because I don't understand why anybody would simply DO NOTHING...meaning LEARN nothing and be HAPPY that because they used a prong at 5-6 months and it didn't work, but by gosh, it worked at 18 months???? Reallly? Is that the culture? Waiting for our dogs to respond FAVORABLY to the prong? Maybe that is why so many of you wanted me to respond to bits in horses...I think I asked at one point...what type of bit....got no response....well, there are a lot of collar types and there are a lot of bit types....I personally think whether bits or collars...the punishment factor says more about the human than it does the animal we inflict it upon.

By the way...after seeing horrific stiff bits of the elite...I always thought "snaffles" such as I was used to in the western world....were humane and safe...ugh...that is not true either because of what I've since learned....Horses tongues can be cut in half by mis-used snaffles....and before ANY OF YOU HORSE PEOPLE SAY that could only be done by some in-bred, callous, non-educated person.....keep in mind there are a lot of people out there using a prong collar with the same mindset.


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> Okay...weird, but I get it...for some reason, the "bit" in a horse's mouth seems to be a point of contention...I blew it off when it was first mentioned as some sort of PARALELL to the prong collar. Why did I blow it off? Because there are just as many "LEVELS" of bit pain (use the word intimidation if that suits you better) by the variety of bits used in horses as there are collars on dogs. For those of you who actually WANT me to answer whether or not I agree with using a bit on a horse....do you KNOW exactly how many different bits are OUT there? Do you actually want to know about double bits and double reins and this and that torture devices used on horses to get them to PLEASE the human eye?
> 
> Well...since many of you think I am avoiding this...don't blame me if this gets a bit long. I was friends with, and lived close to people who had the same breed of dog I did. They were into horse racing and lived close to a local track. I took care of their horses when they had to be away. They dabbled in racing, had some success...I went to some of the races. When one of their horses retired, my friend decided to keep this gelding and train him for hunter/jumper in order to sell him. He was a spirited horse...as MOST THOROUGHBREDS are...I wasn't there for most of his "post racing" training or showing...the few shows I went to in order to support her as a friend, all I saw was a very energetic horse that she STRUGGLED to keep under control....at one hunter class....between classes, she was riding him and he began to back up, a bit agitated, and she could NOT stop him from backing up. He backed up into people...but he wasn't kicking at them...he wasn't a mean horse...but he was obviously distressed. Days later...I was at her house when she was saddling him, and I saw the bit...it was a HORRIBLE looking thing...hugely thick, with a huge "U" shape in the middle of it...that "U" portion when the reins would pull tight would slam against is upper palate. I expressed horror/concern about this bit...and my friend told me "that was the only thing that kept him in control" Well...um...since I wasn't a "horse" person....I didn't state the obvious that a few weekends before she had no control of that horse despite that bit.
> 
> ...


 1084 words and you are still talking in circles and contradicting yourself.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

My quote:


> It's clear that for some dogs, the prong acts like a horse's bit. It's used to communicate via touch and sound from very slight leash movements...
> 
> Approriate use of bits in horses isn't a magical pancea, it's what works for that horse with that rider. Appropriate use of prongs on dogs that are overpowering the owner, same thing.


Now...


> So...this is my response to whoever was the first person who asked me about a bit in a horses mouth. It was an INANE question. Not only are there degrees of potential pain in bits of horses, just as there in collars on dogs...HOW a person uses even the most punishable bit on a horse decides how effective that bit is...


How is it inane to point out that correct use of a prong is just as horrible as... a correctly and humanely used bit in a horse. I know about and am not likening them to


> double bits and double reins and this and that torture devices used on horses


but rather just a normal thing. In one breath you seem to say prongs are cruel unessessary intimidation devices and in another...it's all in how you use it like any device.

Because you have seen horses finely trained with just a halter, does it follow that all horses can be trained with just a halter? (Hint: I'm not a horse person but I know the answer is no.)

Same for prongs.



> .NOBODY has explained to me why various people have said the prong didn't work with their adolescent puppies....and boom....suddenly seven months later....the prong now works....Ive repeatedly asked what happened in those many months....because I don't understand why anybody would simply DO NOTHING...meaning LEARN nothing and be HAPPY that because they used a prong at 5-6 months and it didn't work, but by gosh, it worked at 18 months???? Reallly? Is that the culture?


You're wrong. I did address that question quite clearly.


> "The maturing of the dog could also have been a factor as to why the prong worked the 2nd time."
> 
> This is exactly what happened with Clyde. Walks with him as an adolescent was 2-3 miles of him trying to pull my arm out of its socket no matter what we tried. Putting the prong on him resulted in the least unpleasant pulling, which meant my arm wouldn't hurt when we finished the walk.
> 
> Nothing really changed until he matured. My dad tried to train him to heel with leash pops/dominance and wild adolescent Clyde was just as wild and unconcerned as he had been before. The only thing that made him pull less was age. By 3 years old, he would put almost no tension on the leash. The slightest shift in the leash would make him look at me for direction. He is still that way now as an old dog.


And to keep things as clear as I can. Things we tried to get Clyde to stop pulling like a maniac as a puppy: Full on CM style training, every little force-free training trick I could google (be a tree, watch me, marking a good heel, treating any time he didn't pull, and more, for long periods of time each), head halter (now THAT was torment for him), choke collar, front clip harness, slip lead at the base of the skull, just going faster by using a bike, strapping the leash across his chest so there is control over both the collar and the chest...probably more.

Put on the prong and let him do his thing was what worked best every time. Age was the only thing that changed how he walked on leash...


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> Okay...weird, but I get it...for some reason, the "bit" in a horse's mouth seems to be a point of contention...I blew it off when it was first mentioned as some sort of PARALELL to the prong collar. Why did I blow it off? Because there are just as many "LEVELS" of bit pain (use the word intimidation if that suits you better) by the variety of bits used in horses as there are collars on dogs. For those of you who actually WANT me to answer whether or not I agree with using a bit on a horse....do you KNOW exactly how many different bits are OUT there? Do you actually want to know about double bits and double reins and this and that torture devices used on horses to get them to PLEASE the human eye?
> 
> Well...since many of you think I am avoiding this...don't blame me if this gets a bit long. I was friends with, and lived close to people who had the same breed of dog I did. They were into horse racing and lived close to a local track. I took care of their horses when they had to be away. They dabbled in racing, had some success...I went to some of the races. When one of their horses retired, my friend decided to keep this gelding and train him for hunter/jumper in order to sell him. He was a spirited horse...as MOST THOROUGHBREDS are...I wasn't there for most of his "post racing" training or showing...the few shows I went to in order to support her as a friend, all I saw was a very energetic horse that she STRUGGLED to keep under control....at one hunter class....between classes, she was riding him and he began to back up, a bit agitated, and she could NOT stop him from backing up. He backed up into people...but he wasn't kicking at them...he wasn't a mean horse...but he was obviously distressed. Days later...I was at her house when she was saddling him, and I saw the bit...it was a HORRIBLE looking thing...hugely thick, with a huge "U" shape in the middle of it...that "U" portion when the reins would pull tight would slam against is upper palate. I expressed horror/concern about this bit...and my friend told me "that was the only thing that kept him in control" Well...um...since I wasn't a "horse" person....I didn't state the obvious that a few weekends before she had no control of that horse despite that bit.
> 
> ...


this whole post proves you know nothing about bits and how they work ... there is an old adage ... "if a horse wont do it in a snaffle, they wont do it in a curb", some riders, those who dont know what they are doing, think that a more severe bit will make the horse "mind" when in fact, there is no bit made that will stop a really determined horse from doing what they want to do, whether it be run away or whatever.

What makes the horse "mind" is training ... just like with dogs


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> this whole post proves you know nothing about bits and how they work ... there is an old adage ... "if a horse wont do it in a snaffle, they wont do it in a curb", some riders, those who dont know what they are doing, think that a more severe bit will make the horse "mind" when in fact, there is no bit made that will stop a really determined horse from doing what they want to do, whether it be run away or whatever.
> 
> What makes the horse "mind" is training ... just like with dogs


Wait...I'm confused...what did I write that makes you think I know nothing about bits? I'm actually a bit horrified that you wrote the above. There A LOT of "old adages" about horse training...unfortunate for a lot of horses, but fortunate for those people who choose to understand horse behavior. The reason I may sound a bit frustrated about the constant barrage about bits and prong collars used in the same training scenario is that we are talking about two very different animals. One is a prey animal, one is a predator. They each have very different pretenses of why/how they respond as they do with any given training device.

You say "there is no bit that will stop a really determined horse from doing what it wants to do." And I say...WHY is that horse behaving that way. "Old adages" don't care about trust. PEOPLE want horses to behave based on their desire of a specific goal. The horse has a strong desire to feel safe. Why do some horses have a fear of entering the gate before a race? because it is standard practice that the "gate people" grab their ears to pull them in because they just want to "accomplish getting a horse into the gate." So now the horse has gate issues and head issues...but oh....it is the HORSE'S fault. 

You know what, DON'T get me started on "training horses" because BUT FOR the whims of humans, horses are tortured to get them to lift their legs in a certain way, they get their tails broken in order for them to LOOK a certain way while their abused legs perform a certain way...all for minute points in some HUMAN designed show. You would THINK that dressage training was innocuous, but it isn't...it is horrifically painful in some people's hands. So-called "expert" hands...people who will use horrific bit and neck devices in order to get a certain dramatic effect...If a NOVICE were to use those same devices and techniques....of course that horse is going to misbehave. But the "experts" now how to bring about the whole learned helplessness thing. They end up with the compliant horses.

So...prong collars on dogs? You just said it is all about training. But that implies that at some point, using the prong as a TRAINING device ENDS at some point, and that is not what I am seeing from either the original poster, OR some of the subsequent answers....In fact their ANSWER is the prong. NOT training. So again, still have yet to get an answer...does simply the aging of a dog to accept the prong as a DEVICE to be respected constitute "training?" I think not. 

From BigLittle: "And to keep things as clear as I can. Things we tried to get Clyde to stop pulling like a maniac as a puppy: Full on CM style training, every little force-free training trick I could google (be a tree, watch me, marking a good heel, treating any time he didn't pull, and more, for long periods of time each), head halter (now THAT was torment for him), choke collar, front clip harness, slip lead at the base of the skull, just going faster by using a bike, strapping the leash across his chest so there is control over both the collar and the chest...probably more. Put on the prong and let him do his thing was what worked best every time. Age was the only thing that changed how he walked on leash... "

BigLittle....I took note of the picture of Clyde at the bottom of your post. Big freaking mastiff breed. Your other dog, Louie looks like a chihuahua. More on that later. One sentence from the above "every little force-free training trick I could google." So you are trying to understand/train your dog via google? Especially when you say you ONLY looked up force-free? But NOW you have resorted to the prong? Everybody is trying to DISECT everything I write, but I still don't understand why when the undertone of this forum is "force-free" and positive, positive, positive, that when heck....ME who has tried to inject some discipline, but HATES the prong...get jumped on that I don't understand what everybody else is saying. 

If the END result of ANYBODY's efforts is the prong, then I simply submit, training failed. I can agree with the use of the prong DURING training...and the dog ends up on a flat collar that is a big win....but simply saying that the "prong" is what is needed forever more....then training failed. Just like the whole bit thing with horses. I've worked with giant breeds, but mostly I've worked with hugely prey-oriented dogs mostly in the 70-100 lb range, and many in the 20-30 lb range, who have MORE prey drive than the bigger dogs. It DOESN'T MATTER how big or small these dogs are. After my first hugely successful big dog with prey drive and deciding to use the prong....I've never used it since. Still have the damn thing...there are probably a few spiders dwelling among all those prongs. My big powerful dogs don't leave the HOUSE without their understanding I am in charge, because it all begins with that mindset INSIDE the house. It is not "adversive" it is simply a mind-set. It isn't something you "google." Maybe if people spent more time with their actual dogs, learning about their dogs, and less time googling...you will find it is actually more fun to interact with your dog....learn it's tendencies....oh and the whole "tug" thing that produces "aggressive" dogs, which I'm sure is easy to google....that whole thing DEPENDS ON THE DOG. A great thing with one type of dog...dangerous to do with other types of dogs...better to rely on your own intincts, if they haven't been totally squashed by the google maze. In other words, BigLittle...if you think the only thing that changed regarding what you now regard as being able to walk your dog is the fact he's old enough to respect the prong...then you have missed tons of opportunities to actually train your dog. Understand your dog. Understand dogs in general. So just that I'm curious....why go from Louis the Chi, to Clyde the mastiff? Why the leap?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Some of us do not have the motivation to train something that may be very difficult for an individual dog (or individual human---for some reason I have never been able to train a loose-leash walk with any of my dogs. I think I don't know how to communicate what I want). I think it may be better to walk a dog on a prong forever (not yanking on it---just "power steering") rather than frustrate both of us trying to train something I have no skill in training. Of course, only if it's necessary to keep the dog from dragging you around---if the dog doesn't pull too hard it just wouldn't be an issue. It's sort of moot for me because my dogs' lifestyle requires very little on-leash walking. I'm willing to say training failed but, well, what else can you do when training fails? I guess you could never go on an on-leash walk. That's basically what I do . Probably won't work in town though.

And um. Google is a database. Of information. On how to train dogs, among everything else. Some of us weren't born knowing how to train dogs. . .how do you propose we learn how?

Oh, and interacting with your dog, learning about your dog, spending time with your dog, understanding your dog---those things are great for the relationship, but don't automatically lead to a trained dog. Because that would require actual training, not just hanging out together. Training takes a great deal of skill. Maybe people who have a natural talent for it tend to forget that.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

PaddiB, either you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, or your reading comprehension is poor because EVERYBODY IN THIS THREAD FUNDAMENTALLY AGREES WITH YOU.

Did you read what I just wrote? Now go back and read some postings we have made. Basically everybody in this thread agrees that prongs are management tools that are useful with some dogs in some cases, but that it all comes back to training. Many of us even recommended working with a trainer in person to make sure the use of the prong was humane and effective if the poster chose to use it. All of us have said that it's just a training tool, it's not magic, and it's all in how you use it. Those of us who have used it have typically not used it on every dog we own, or even more than one dog, because we don't think it's the right tool for every situation. And I think most of us who used a prong for those certain dogs would agree that the training we were doing was not enough for that dog's age/skill/size/maturity/whatever and we went to the prong to help us manage the situation while we worked through it. We are not born perfect trainers who know how to fix every problem. Yes, there are people who put prongs on every dog that they train, but not a single poster here has said that's their training method. The fact that you think we all slap prongs on every dog and think they are super awesome just shows me how many assumptions you make before you even read what we post.

The fact that you've somehow missed the fact that everybody agrees with you is just baffling. You've gotten so bogged down in statements taken out of context, or random side arguments (nobody really cares about the horses and bits thing, one person brought that up and you've taken it and run with it). You often seem to assume the statement of one person stands for everybody on this forum, as if we're a hive mind. Pretty much everybody has gotten the same thing out of this thread (Shep summed it up nicely, and you said that you agree with Shep) except for you. You're the only one reading something completely different into the tone of this thread. And if you're the only one who sees that, maybe you should go back and re-read with an open mind and you'll see that we're not saying the things you think we're saying at all.

I think if you stepped back and really read some of the thoughtful and well informed posts on this site, and got to know some of the users instead of just arguing and assuming everybody is attacking you, you would find it a more enjoyable place. People aren't saying the ridiculous things you think they are and you might find they actually agree with you when you stop assuming they're idiots.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

PaddiB said:


> So...prong collars on dogs? You just said it is all about training. But that implies that at some point, using the prong as a TRAINING device ENDS at some point, and that is not what I am seeing from either the original poster, OR some of the subsequent answers...


Then you are not reading and/or not comprehending because literally everyone in this thread who uses a prong collar in any kind of long term way has freely stated that they are using it for management, NOT TRAINING. I'm not understanding why this isn't sinking in? Do you not understand what we mean by the term "management"?


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## JohnnyBandit (Sep 19, 2008)

PaddiB said:


> Wait...I'm confused...what did I write that makes you think I know nothing about bits? I'm actually a bit horrified that you wrote the above. There A LOT of "old adages" about horse training...unfortunate for a lot of horses, but fortunate for those people who choose to understand horse behavior. The reason I may sound a bit frustrated about the constant barrage about bits and prong collars used in the same training scenario is that we are talking about two very different animals. One is a prey animal, one is a predator. They each have very different pretenses of why/how they respond as they do with any given training device.
> 
> You say "there is no bit that will stop a really determined horse from doing what it wants to do." And I say...WHY is that horse behaving that way. "Old adages" don't care about trust. PEOPLE want horses to behave based on their desire of a specific goal. The horse has a strong desire to feel safe. Why do some horses have a fear of entering the gate before a race? because it is standard practice that the "gate people" grab their ears to pull them in because they just want to "accomplish getting a horse into the gate." So now the horse has gate issues and head issues...but oh....it is the HORSE'S fault.
> 
> ...



You do not pay attention to what anyone else says, do you?


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

> . So you are trying to understand/train your dog via google? Especially when you say you ONLY looked up force-free?


Putting words in my mouth. You assume I never put any real effort into understanding Clyde...he is an odd dog. His logic is his own and I have learned that logic over the years. I never said I was 100% force free, considering my dad went full Caesar Milan on him right along with me. I looked up force free because it wasn't working and CM didn't look like the whole picture... To boot, I landed at the prong. Call it a training failure if you like but it's a management tool for me. He only weighs 10 lbs less than me after all. My safety trumps "proper training" especially if it's like water off a duck's back as far as the effect on his feelings.

Also, why not Google? It's a free learning tool and all I knew was Ceaser Milan's training style. Not going to risk accidentally investing hundreds of $$ in some hokey snake oil trainer just to get my dog to stop pulling on the leash. Gotta start somewhere reasonable.



> . In other words, BigLittle...if you think the only thing that changed regarding what you now regard as being able to walk your dog is the fact he's old enough to respect the prong...then you have missed tons of opportunities to actually train your dog.


Not so much respect the prong, he just kinda became more sensitive because he finally stopped being overstimulated. all. the. time. He was harder than granite as an adolescent. Go back to that list. I highly doubt missing training opportunities can just explain away everything...

And what about the jump to Louie?


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

Willowy said:


> Some of us do not have the motivation to train something that may be very difficult for an individual dog (or individual human---for some reason I have never been able to train a loose-leash walk with any of my dogs. I think I don't know how to communicate what I want). I think it may be better to walk a dog on a prong forever (not yanking on it---just "power steering") rather than frustrate both of us trying to train something I have no skill in training. Of course, only if it's necessary to keep the dog from dragging you around---if the dog doesn't pull too hard it just wouldn't be an issue. It's sort of moot for me because my dogs' lifestyle requires very little on-leash walking. I'm willing to say training failed but, well, what else can you do when training fails? I guess you could never go on an on-leash walk. That's basically what I do . Probably won't work in town though.
> 
> And um. Google is a database. Of information. On how to train dogs, among everything else. Some of us weren't born knowing how to train dogs. . .how do you propose we learn how?
> 
> Oh, and interacting with your dog, learning about your dog, spending time with your dog, understanding your dog---those things are great for the relationship, but don't automatically lead to a trained dog. Because that would require actual training, not just hanging out together. Training takes a great deal of skill. Maybe people who have a natural talent for it tend to forget that.


Ok...I am truly trying to understand the purpose of this forum. And I am truly trying to understand why suddenly people think I have a reading comprehension problem, or that I "love to argue." I am merely responding to direct questions posed to me, and furthermore, for 25 years my profession was research in a truly difficult area....coming up with the correct answers between federal, state, and local directives and being right with my interpretations of meshing that crap together. My job depended upon my doing this correctly...having it stand up to scrutiny. So no, I don't have a "problem" with reading comprehension.

I thought people came to this list for HELP. So I've used the above quote from Willowy to express MY thoughts about why perhaps all of YOU don't get it. Willowy says, "Some of us do not have the motivation to train something that may be very difficult for an individual dog (or individual human---for some reason I have never been able to train a loose-leash walk with any of my dogs. I think I don't know how to communicate what I want). " 

Is Willowy speaking for only herself? She says "some of us" so is that true? How many others on this forum don't have the MOTIVATION to actually train a difficult dog? Or are motivated enough to change THEMSELVES to go beyond a "paint by number" technique they find on google? Truly, I am flabbergasted. 

She says: <<Oh, and interacting with your dog, learning about your dog, spending time with your dog, understanding your dog---those things are great for the relationship, but don't automatically lead to a trained dog. Because that would require actual training, not just hanging out together. Training takes a great deal of skill. Maybe people who have a natural talent for it tend to forget that.>> And I am accused of lack of reading comprehension? I'm sorry, but she is talking in circles. I never said learning about your dog ends up in a trained dog, but that it is imperative TO train your dog. 

And then that word "talent" comes into play in which I've seen in MANY posts...truly training your dog is not some sort of "magic" that a few "talented" people possess. I think, for whatever reason, people on this forum have had failures, thus, they think they aren't "talented" enough to train a dog, so they will simply fall back on "management." THIS is why, WILLOWY, that I say that observation and all of the other things are ALSO tools for training your dog...the relationship you have with your dog IS the key to TRAINING...not a "google search" for a "technique." 

So again, the basic question...why does this forum exist? I find it unfortunate that it seems that the majority of people on this list simply throw acronyms like LAT and BAT and any number of "google" stuff as gospel, when CLEARLY there are tons of people that have been down the many google roads and still have difficult dogs....and now those people think they aren't "talented" enough to train to train their dogs. Willowy, and others....DON'T SELL YOURSELF short....get into your own head, and into your dog's head, training isn't a talent, it requires an open mind, it requires you to THINK, it requires YOU observing things (which can't be done if you have a screen in front of your face the majority of your life).


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

PaddiB said:


> .Is Willowy speaking for only herself? She says "some of us" so is that true? How many others on this forum don't have the MOTIVATION to actually train a difficult dog? Or are motivated enough to change THEMSELVES to go beyond a "paint by number" technique they find on google? Truly, I am flabbergasted.





Willowy said:


> .-for some reason I have never been able to train a loose-leash walk with any of my dogs. I think I don't know how to communicate what I want). I think it may be better to walk a dog on a prong forever (not yanking on it---just "power steering") rather than frustrate both of us trying to train something I have no skill in training.


You are truly flabbergasted... That a few forum users aren't motivated to train LLW properly in dogs that are difficult to leash train. OK, then...



> .So again, the basic question...why does this forum exist?


Is it flabberghastingly wrong to talk about random topics about dogs and jabber about dog things here on a place called "dog forums"?


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

I have trained my 'difficult' dog in quite a few things. 

Training him to not sporadically lunge after wildlife, no. Two reasons: 
1-) It would be really hard to engineer training scenarios for that one, and pretty dangerous to do so anyway. 
2-) Don't wanna. 

I have things I'd rather be training with him, that are more fun for both of us.

Go ahead and keep being flabbergasted by that. You seem to work a lot harder to find something to be outraged over than reading what people actually write, anyway.


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## PaddiB (Aug 8, 2014)

BigLittle said:


> Putting words in my mouth. You assume I never put any real effort into understanding Clyde...he is an odd dog. His logic is his own and I have learned that logic over the years. I never said I was 100% force free, considering my dad went full Caesar Milan on him right along with me. I looked up force free because it wasn't working and CM didn't look like the whole picture... To boot, I landed at the prong. Call it a training failure if you like but it's a management tool for me. He only weighs 10 lbs less than me after all. My safety trumps "proper training" especially if it's like water off a duck's back as far as the effect on his feelings.
> 
> Also, why not Google? It's a free learning tool and all I knew was Ceaser Milan's training style. Not going to risk accidentally investing hundreds of $$ in some hokey snake oil trainer just to get my dog to stop pulling on the leash. Gotta start somewhere reasonable.Not so much respect the prong, he just kinda became more sensitive because he finally stopped being overstimulated. all. the. time. He was harder than granite as an adolescent. Go back to that list. I highly doubt missing training opportunities can just explain away everything...And what about the jump to Louie?


I'm sorry, but I simply find the above just sad. I have seen references to "CM" but I didn't know what that was....(just like I had to look up LAT and BAT and others). Now I know CM means cesar milan. I almost don't know how to respond, because the above MAKES NO SENSE. Believe me...I GET it that people on this forum don't like Cesar Milan. But, hmmm...Cesar Milan doesn't like prong collars...but yet...THIS LIST LOVES PRONG COLLARS. Because when all of the google training techniques fail, and like willowy says, people on this list just aren't MOTIVATED to actually learn how to train their dogs...TA DA! The prong collar is the solution. They call it "management." 

I agree with management regarding certain things like countersurfing and trash can surfing....but walking on a leash???? No...BigLittle even says her "safety" trumps proper training....and I would say....then you shouldn't own such a powerful dogs as Clyde is...yes, I am saying that, because there might be an instance where even the prong will fail if your powerful Clyde wants something bad enough....because he DOESN'T RESPECT YOU. I've already decided I was a magnet for "odd" dogs just like BigLittle says Clyde is "an odd dog." Having the chance to work with and even owning "odd dogs" is a BLESSING. It SHOULD make you want to figure out dog behavior as a whole, and not just hide behind a prong collar because you think that makes you "safe."

I would think my jump to Louie is clear.


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

Paddi, I chose neither Clyde nor Louie. My dad bought Clyde for himself when I was a teen and found him annoying and too hard to train. Clyde liked me better anyway and I wanted to help him, so here I am with a wild adolescent dog I'm trying to train and am endeared to. The fact that not being able to safely walk without a prong being literally the only training problem I have now should say a lot, but not being 100% trained in every area in his life isn't enough for you to be ok with me as a dog owner I guess.

Louie is my mom's dog. She got him for herself. I have since ditched Ceaser Milan but my dad has not. We got the dog I felt would mesh best with the family dynamic and he has been one of the easiest dogs to train that we have owned.

Edit: Clyde has gone after things and it was prong plus my own skill that kept me safe. He has nearly taken me down with the martingale on, all the while choking himself...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Honestly, I could do a whole big defense of post here. 

About where Thud came from, about why we kept him, about what he does know and what he doesn't and about the prong use in particular. I almost *did*, but honestly? It's just not worth it. I don't need validation from much of anyone, and I particularly don't need it from this person, so whatever.

Someone on line, who apparently can't read, doesn't approve of my choices. 

HOW CAN I POSSIBLY CONTINUE?


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## BigLittle (May 28, 2014)

CptJack said:


> Honestly, I could do a whole big defense of post here.
> 
> About where Thud came from, about why we kept him, about what he does know and what he doesn't and about the prong use in particular. I almost *did*, but honestly? It's just not worth it. I don't need validation from much of anyone, and I particularly don't need it from this person, so whatever.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I debated putting up my whole origin story about Clyde, but I felt it was relevant because she seemed to think she knows way more about Clyde and our owner-dog dynamic than someone who has learned and lived closely with him for 8 years... there were a lot of assumptions made which if read to my family would cause quite a chuckle.


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## sassafras (Jun 22, 2010)

I am genuinely curious, why is management "ok" for counter surfing or garbage but not for walks?


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## Willowy (Dec 10, 2007)

Um. There are things every single dog owner isn't motivated to train their dog to do. Maybe you haven't trained your dog to bring you a cold beer from the fridge because you don't drink beer. Maybe you haven't trained your dog to walk a teeter because you don't do agility. Everybody chooses what's important enough to them to find the motivation to train their dog to do it. 

I guess I'm just confused about where to find dog training info if I'm not supposed to use Google. That's like saying I shouldn't use a phone book to find info. It's just a search engine! Like the card catalog at the library (haha, now I feel old because I remember card catalogs! ). I feel like I have a great relationship with my dogs, but that doesn't teach me how to train them.

I also don't think Cesar Millan is against the use of prong collars? I just thought that was a weird comment.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

PaddiB said:


> I'm sorry, but I simply find the above just sad. I have seen references to "CM" but I didn't know what that was....(just like I had to look up LAT and BAT and others). Now I know CM means cesar milan. I almost don't know how to respond, because the above MAKES NO SENSE. Believe me...I GET it that people on this forum don't like Cesar Milan. But, hmmm...Cesar Milan doesn't like prong collars...but yet...THIS LIST LOVES PRONG COLLARS. Because when all of the google training techniques fail, and like willowy says, people on this list just aren't MOTIVATED to actually learn how to train their dogs...TA DA! The prong collar is the solution. They call it "management."
> 
> I agree with management regarding certain things like countersurfing and trash can surfing....but walking on a leash???? No...BigLittle even says her "safety" trumps proper training....and I would say....then you shouldn't own such a powerful dogs as Clyde is...yes, I am saying that, because there might be an instance where even the prong will fail if your powerful Clyde wants something bad enough....because he DOESN'T RESPECT YOU. I've already decided I was a magnet for "odd" dogs just like BigLittle says Clyde is "an odd dog." Having the chance to work with and even owning "odd dogs" is a BLESSING. It SHOULD make you want to figure out dog behavior as a whole, and not just hide behind a prong collar because you think that makes you "safe."
> 
> I would think my jump to Louie is clear.


Haha yeah, most people on this forum are not motivated to train dogs, sure, okay. 

Whether you are "into it" or not, you train your dog every day, its just a product of just ... being with a dog every day, they learn what you like and dont like, etc ...


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

Oh, I meant to address the people here not being motivated to train. 

You realize that the majority of people commenting to this post takes part in at least one dog sport. Not all competitively, but quite a few do. Quite a few also participate in more than one dog sport or related activity. 

Many also attend multiple training classes a week with their dog/dogs.

So... I'd say not motivated to train pretty silly, personally. Might want to know your audience before you start spouting off.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

CptJack said:


> Oh, I meant to address the people here not being motivated to train.
> 
> You realize that the majority of people commenting to this post takes part in at least one dog sport. Not all competitively, but quite a few do. Quite a few also participate in more than one dog sport or related activity.
> 
> ...


I am confused, are you referencing PaddiB or me? because I was in agreement with you ... I just forgot to quote your post.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

sassafras said:


> I am genuinely curious, why is management "ok" for counter surfing or garbage but not for walks?


 I think it's largely a matter of the handler being present or not. Counter surfing and garbage issues (ie: 'self-reinforcing' behaviours) present few if any chances for the handler to reinforce whenever the dog makes correct choices, where LLW training offers plenty of opportunities to do so. Which leaves management as the most practical choice for dealing with surfing and raiding, unless a person wishes to turn to P+ / scat mats, etc.


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## SirviRavenWind (Dec 1, 2014)

PaddiB said:


> I agree with management regarding certain things like countersurfing and trash can surfing....but walking on a leash???? No...BigLittle even says her "safety" trumps proper training....and I would say....then you shouldn't own such a powerful dogs as Clyde is...yes, I am saying that, because there might be an instance where even the prong will fail if your powerful Clyde wants something bad enough....*because he DOESN'T RESPECT YOU*. I've already decided I was a magnet for "odd" dogs just like BigLittle says Clyde is "an odd dog." Having the chance to work with and even owning "odd dogs" is a BLESSING. It SHOULD make you want to figure out dog behavior as a whole, and not just hide behind a prong collar because you think that makes you "safe."
> 
> I would think my jump to Louie is clear.


I don't see this as a respect issue. I have used the prong on some dogs and it was to teach them not to pull, since all the dogs were much larger then me. I could not take time or chance that something else was going to work--in such cases the owners safety is important--and I have had experience with using them. I know for a fact they work well on most dogs and you will tell if the dog is going to tolerate it/be receptive or not. I have done it on adolescent dogs and most ignore it easily--only to come back to it a few months later to have them do fine. 

And I am sorry but safety is higher on my list then "proper/pc training" since if I get hurt where do you think the dog is going to end up?? (most likely not a good place) This does not mean use harsh/negative/ abusive training methods but what works for that individual dog--this includes using a prong to walk or any other device for a amount of time where the dog grows/matures more or it sinks in.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

petpeeve said:


> I think it's largely a matter of the handler being present or not. Counter surfing and garbage issues (ie: 'self-reinforcing' behaviours) present few if any chances for the handler to reinforce whenever the dog makes correct choices, where LLW training offers plenty of opportunities to do so. Which leaves management as the most practical choice for dealing with surfing and raiding, unless a person wishes to turn to P+ / scat mats, etc.


Yeah I dont understand why training a dog to have good behaviors in the house is bad ???


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## CptJack (Jun 3, 2012)

OwnedbyACDs said:


> I am confused, are you referencing PaddiB or me? because I was in agreement with you ... I just forgot to quote your post.


I was addressing PaddiB. You just reminded me. Basically I was agreeing with your agreement - or expounding. Sorry.


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## luv mi pets (Feb 5, 2012)

There are a lot worse things one could be doing to their dogs than putting a prong collar on it's neck and taking them for a walk. Putting them on a chain in the back lot and forgetting about them would be one of the far worst things in my mind.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

> Personally, I wouldn't use a prong. Not just because the training methods I'm studying don't condone them, *but I just frankly don't trust myself to use tools like that absolutely properly. AND both of my dogs are pretty soft when it comes to aversives. *


Exactly, using a prong on soft dogs is like hunting fleas with an elephant gun. Using the proper tool for the right dog is what it's all about.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Yes, what one dog finds aversive might not even phase another. Some dogs cane do prongs because they are too soft, some cant because they are too hard and it only makes them more aroused when confronted with something that stimulates them.


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## Kyllobernese (Feb 5, 2008)

It is really annoying to me when Paddie B makes statements like "everybody on this forum loves Prongs". Where does he get these ideas? I was 75 years old when I got Kris. Over the winter when there was ice everywhere I used a Prong Collar for the first time for my safety. I was still training her for loose leash walking but in the meantime it was safer to be able to walk her without worrying about getting jerked down. After the winter, I have never used it again and did not use it last winter as she now walks on a loose leash. I certainly to not "love" the prong and have trained lots of big breeds of dogs and had never used it before but due to circumstances it was the smart thing to do, either that or never walk her over the winter.


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## Avie (Jul 10, 2011)

Wow, drama abound. This is why I don't usually frequent the dog training forums. Anyway, I wouldn't use a prong ever, I just wouldn't feel comfortable with it. (and I don't see myself owning a dog that needs this kind of aversive to control it either. I like soft dogs) 

Jen2010, how's everything working out over at yours?


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## ireth0 (Feb 11, 2013)

Kyllobernese said:


> It is really annoying to me when Paddie B makes statements like "everybody on this forum loves Prongs". Where does he get these ideas?


Yep. Let me throw in as the dissenter I guess. 

I don't use a prong on my dog! Never have. My dog walks well on a loose leash.

Shock horror, I also *agree* with most of the people here! Although a prong wouldn't be my go-to tool for managing pulling (and definitely not for lunging/reactivity), I also don't think they're the worst thing ever and think they CAN be beneficial in some situations when used properly.

So... you can stop with the 'everyone on this forum loves prongs' nonsense. Because... I don't!


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Hank pulls really bad on a leash. I'm a horrible person probably.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Laurelin said:


> Hank pulls really bad on a leash. I'm a horrible person probably.


Not a horrible person! Use whatever you need to use to live in harmony with your dog.

One thing I have learned, again and again, is that there is a HUGE variety in dogs. Training a couple of dogs well might make a person feel like an expert, but there are dogs out there who will change your method and your mind. Handle the dog in front of you and let peoples' great advice wash off of you when it doesn't fit your situation.

I am the same person I've always been. I have owned 8 dogs. 6 have been stellar on leash, one is decent with episodes of horrible. One of my past dogs was a friggin' freight train. Train the dog in front of you. Be as fair as you can be. And stop worrying about what other people think of your training because I assure you, they spend very little time doing it. The more time other people spend worrying about You and Your Dog, the crazier they are and the more they should be avoided.

I also am not a prong fan. So what? I truly hate head halters. Hate them. So what? Not a fan of front clip harnesses. So what? I own all of them. All of them. I will use any/all of them whenever they make sense. Just probably not on my own dogs. Again, so what? I have chosen that for me and for my dogs. Doesn't mean I have any opinion about how other people train their dogs. Just love your dog, be good to it, and be happy.


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## OwnedbyACDs (Jun 22, 2013)

Lincoln used to be a horrible puller, but i have been working on an "easy" command with him, where he doesnt have to heel, but he just cant pull my arm out (he is only 34 lbs but geeze he can be strong!). He does have a heel command for when we are in a store or something, I accomplished both with penalty yards, though if he were bigger, because I have a injury to my shoulder, I wouldnt feel bad about getting a prong.


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## North&South (May 20, 2015)

trainingjunkie said:


> Not a horrible person! *Use whatever you need to use to live in harmony with your dog.*
> 
> One thing I have learned, again and again, is that there is a HUGE variety in dogs. *Training a couple of dogs well might make a person feel like an expert, but there are dogs out there who will change your method and your mind. Handle the dog in front of you and let peoples' great advice wash off of you when it doesn't fit your situation.
> *
> ...


Wow. This. Especially the parts I bolded. In fact, I am going to write this down and refer to it as needed. :rockon::clap2:

P.S. No opinion re prong collars, not applicable in my situation but I have been reading this thread just for the sake of interest.


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## wvasko (Dec 15, 2007)

*



Training a couple of dogs well might make a person feel like an expert, but there are dogs out there who will change your method and your mind. Handle the dog in front of you and let peoples' great advice wash off of you when it doesn't fit your situation.

Click to expand...

Absolutely, *Many years ago during/after a health problem I had to hire a trainer (barely adequate). When health problem was solved I decided to teach a person in area that had some qualifications and wanted to learn the trade. After 125 dogs (different pure & mixed breeds) I told her she had finished her apprenticeship and bestowed the title "Blue Collar Dog Trainer" on her.* Not expert but a decent start.

*After all it does take time to learn proper prong collar use.


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