# Littermates and Crates



## Dexter&Phoebe (May 19, 2012)

Hi all,

We are new to the forum and looking for some advice. We picked up our puppies this week (Dexter & Phoebe, 11 weeks, English Mastiff x Dogue de Bordeaux x Staffie) and absolutely LOVE them!!

We now got them crates and as long as they are distracted with their toys they're happy to stay in them with the door shut. However, a few minutes later they start whining terribly. It's heartbreaking :Cry:

Shall we just leave them in there and hope they'll wear themselves out and eventually go to sleep? We have to keep them separate when we're not supervising until we can get them neutered as we do not want them breeding (I know they're young but we want them to get used to it...) Also, should the crates be next to each other or at opposite ends of the room?

I had 3 dogs before (not at the same time) and never used crates but as we need to prevent them breeding when we're out we think crates are the way forward...

Another thing: We will go back to work when they are just over 12 weeks old, which means they will be alone for up to 5.5h at a time (I'll come home for about 1h at lunchtime). is it OK to crate them for that long? At the moment they go about 4.5h at night when they're sleeping without going out and even then they don't start "asking" to go out yet... Just wondering if it'd be "cruel" to crate them that long as they might have to soil...

Any advice would be great! Thank you


----------



## rotten (Mar 13, 2012)

When they whine terribly, does it sound like they've gotten their lungs caught on barbed wire, the sorta sound that make you feel like a cruel dog owner? Excellent, isnt it? We are a 8months in, and so far, my heart has not broken, despite Pohm's attempts to train us to feed her EVERY time she's remotely interested in food or she will DIE of starvation! And i particularly love her, im stuck behind the sofa, as i cant walk backwards screaming lol

oh how cute, pohm is a bordeaux x rottie. she gets her smarts from the bordeaux side. We used a crate for first week as i was scared my GSD would crush the puppy with his paws. A waste of money/time, he always has been very gentle. But she'd scream her head off to get me to get up and let her out coz she was about to die in there! Poor thing, thought we were first time pup owners, 24 hrs of ignoring this, but coming when she was quiet stopped it fast. 
Personally, i found crate training hampered my training methods, as i wasnt used to crate training i guess. 

Im not a fan of crate training personally. so will leave others to advise.

Just wanted to say, can i have a look at a photos of your cuties?


----------



## Dexter&Phoebe (May 19, 2012)

Hiya "rotten" 

Thanks for your reply! Glad to see we're not the only ones with whiny pups  We do have a baby gate between the lounge and kitchen so could keep them separate that way but, obviously, that means they'd be free to mess in the house whereas maybe crates might encourage them to hold it until we let them out... Plus, the male chews the baby gate like mad if we keep them in the separate rooms and I'm concerned he will hurt himself or get his leg caught...

Your "pup" looks really cute by the way 

Here's a little vid of ours: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxGkJEWmygs&feature=share *brag* 

Hoping someone will have some more advice for us.


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Leeo and Blu Boy were 12 weeks old and brothers and littermates when we got them. I kept them in separate crates next to each other so they did not feel so all alone. Yes they cried and whined like someone was killing them. But that stopped after a couple weeks.

I trained them separately at first and then eventually trained them together ... especially about sharing and taking turns and eating side by side.

I potty trained them at the same time. I always took them outside together.

They slept in the same room for 6 months ... which was our kitchen. 

After 6 months of age they slept in separate rooms ... our bedrooms as Blu Boy was my Mothers dog and Leeo was my dog. ... but still in crates beside the bed ... so they did not feel alone and were within arms reach.

They were never left alone together and unattended out of their crates until they were 1 year old. I never had a problem with sibling rivalry either ... either I am good or got lucky Lol!  ... or they are/were good! 

The Boy's only ever had one scrap ... over what I do not know ... and that was at about 5 months old. I remember it well and it was in the sunroom and ended in the living room. Then it was over for the rest of their lives together.  Leeo was the dominant dog .. Blu Boy always took the back seat and was the mild mannered one! Lol!

Good Luck in your endeavor! Remember .... the dogs need time apart sometimes and separate time with the humans also. I found that I was successful and it made for two great dogs in my household!

EDIT: About working .. I am retired and was then ... but we left them alone in their crates when we went shopping. But if you could find someone to come and give them potty breaks while you are at work ... it would be great and help with the potty training! If that is not possible ... I would leave them with potty pads or newspaper while they were still this young. But that is just what I would do. Maybe someone else will come along with a good solution for this.


----------



## Dexter&Phoebe (May 19, 2012)

Thanks for the reply, Abbylynn 

This is great! That's exactly what we were planning on doing!! :whoo: 

They spent the first night in their crates last night. We left the doors open and slept in the same room but after trying to get on our bed without success they just automatically went into their crates *so proud* :clap2:

This morning they went into their crates to chew their toys and I managed to close the doors for about 5 minutes without them even noticing! When they did and started to whine I waited until they stopped and let them out. Leaving the room while they're in their crates still causes major drama, but hey - we're only just getting started 

Sadly, with regards to getting someone to let them out while we're working I'm afraid that will probably not be possible  Maybe someone's got some ideas on this? I suppose we'll probably have to crate them with their training pads on the crate floor and hope for the best....


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Remember, puppies will usually be able to hold it longer at night, as everything is in "sleep mode". Body systems slow down, heart rate, breathing, etc. So, less urine is produced. During the day, if they are active, they won't be able to hold it as long as they can at night.

We started with crates. Our first pup took to the crate really well, but still had his whiny moments. Puppies would, of course, rather be with their people or a buddy then by themselves. Our second puppy was a bit worse, just a couple weeks of 20 minutes whining per night.

After they were potty trained they started sleeping in our bed.

During the day, we used pens, and then, progressed to the whole kitchen, blocked with a baby gate. Now they have the free reign of the house, with the exception of bedrooms.


----------



## Dexter&Phoebe (May 19, 2012)

Hey doxiemommy,

May I ask how old they are now and what kind of dogs you have? Just curious  Also, how long did it take until they were fully housetrained? We took ours out for their first little walk today and Dexter was fine, did everything outside (pee and poo). Phoebe, however, didn't do anything but then had a wee on the training pad once we got back home. That's fine though - she goes on the grass in the garden so I'm sure she'll get the hang of it very soon 

I just love having them home!!  It is hard work, especially with 2 but so very rewarding! They had their jabs today so they're sound asleep next to me on the sofa now. So cute! xx


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

We have a miniature dachshund, Harper, he just turned three; and Abby, a chihuahua-dachshund mix we adopted from a shelter, she's 2 1/2. We have a foster pup, a mix, he's about 8 months.
Oh, my! Potty training Harper was pretty easy. We started out using puppy pads because we were in an apartment waiting for our house to be finished, and we didn't have easy access to a potty area. I regret using pads, Harper started peeing on anything remotely pad like, like door mats, throw rugs, bath mats, whatever soft thing that was on the floor! But, after we got into our house, he was pretty easy, about 6 months of age and he was good to go.
Abby was our challenge. She got the concept, but didn't have the holding abilities Harper did. And, if we didn't see her go stand in front of the back door, she'd pee where she was. She was probably a year old before we could allow her to roam free without keeping our eyes right on her. She wasn't having accidents all the time, we just had to watch her to prevent accidents!
And, she still occasionally needs a midnight potty break. She doesn't have any health problems, just has a bladder the size of a grain of salt, and can't hold it as long as Harper!

Good luck with your little ones!


----------



## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

We only have one, small-breed pup (dachshundX), but what we did was put the crate in an expen, door opened, until Hamilton was reliably potty trained at night. After a whole month with no accidents, we started shrinking the ex-pen little by little until he barely had more room than the crate, then started putting him in the crate with the door shut. The transition went smoothly, and he has no objections to the crate. We do work during the day too, however, and he hangs in his expen with yet another crate and blanket during the day. He has toys and water and room to move around some, but is also safe, and doesn't destroy my house!


----------



## Dexter&Phoebe (May 19, 2012)

Thanks for all the advice - really appreciated  They are OK during the day now with being in their crates with the doors shut. They whine for up to 10 mins but then give up and just go to sleep or chew their toys. At night we leave the doors open but I might try closing them tonight to see how it goes. They don't seem to mind being in their crates and go in them voluntarily to chew their toys and for naps so maybe they'll be OK... This morning I woke up to a shredded training pad to sweep up - not quite what you want to be doing at 6am on your day off :-/...


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Dexter&Phoebe said:


> Thanks for all the advice - really appreciated  They are OK during the day now with being in their crates with the doors shut. They whine for up to 10 mins but then give up and just go to sleep or chew their toys. At night we leave the doors open but I might try closing them tonight to see how it goes. They don't seem to mind being in their crates and go in them voluntarily to chew their toys and for naps so maybe they'll be OK... This morning I woke up to a shredded training pad to sweep up - not quite what you want to be doing at 6am on your day off :-/...


Yikes! ... Been there ... Done that ... Sounds as if you need a bare crate at night. I have had a couple rescues that could not be trusted with anything in their crates what-so-ever ... they always destroyed it. For safety sake I just left the crate bare ... much easier to clean and not having to worry about them swallowing things they should not!


----------



## Dexter&Phoebe (May 19, 2012)

So - they both spent the first night in their crates with doors closed. I took them out 3 times and after each time Dexter whined for about 10 minutes and then settled down to sleep. Phoebe generally seems better now and hardly whines at all.
We went to puppy socialisation class at the vet's yesterday and discovered some new issues: Dexter is VERY shy! He didn't play with the other dogs and mostly hid behind my legs.... Phoebe was pretty much the opposite and even displayed some aggression towards the other puppies, especially when there was food involved. (The vet gave them each a Kong and Phoebe tried to get everyone else's and even growled and snapped at them for it!) 
What we started to do now is: When Dexter is playing with a toy and Phoebe wants it, we tell her "no" and give her another toy to chew. I also took their food bowls away once while they were eating and got them both to sit and wait for my permission to eat on. This has gone very well. Does anyone know of anything else we could do to stop her showing (food) aggression towards other dogs? She is fine with us taking her food but it seems other dogs are the issue... Sadly we don't know anyone else with a dog whom we could get together with to get her used to being around other dogs and sharing toys and food


----------



## Hambonez (Mar 17, 2012)

Hamilton was like Dexter at his first puppy socialization group. A few months later, and the trainer uses him to introduce new pups to the group since he gets along so well with everyone, and really adapts to how the other dogs want to play!


----------



## Abbylynn (Jul 7, 2011)

Not sure about the food aggression with other dogs who are basically strangers to them. But you giving Phoebe another toy when she takes Dexter's is how I used to begin to get the boy's to share. I also made them sit by my feet and I would take turns giving them treats ... I would say Blu Boy's turn ... Leeo's turn ... and repeat while they sat beside each other. I told them "take turns" and taught them patience along with sharing.

I never had much of an issue with food. I used to hand feed the Boys side by side from time to time also. I would just sit down on the floor and have them sit next to me and we would take turns ... a bite for Blu and a bite for Leeo ... until their meal was finished. I felt this showed them that neither one of them were a threat to each other. This also shows them that all good things come from you if they behave.

I generally started mine out about three feet away from each other and then slowly put their food bowls a little closer as time went on. Eventually it was set up that there was a food bowl and then a water bowl and then another food bowl all lined up next to each other ... no issues. They also learned to share bones ... they would automatically go to their own area with the high value treats without direction from me. 

They always shared water on their own and would drink from the bowl at the same time head to head.

They were such good Brothers.


----------



## doxiemommy (Dec 18, 2009)

Dexter&Phoebe said:


> So - they both spent the first night in their crates with doors closed. I took them out 3 times and after each time Dexter whined for about 10 minutes and then settled down to sleep. Phoebe generally seems better now and hardly whines at all.
> We went to puppy socialisation class at the vet's yesterday and discovered some new issues: Dexter is VERY shy! He didn't play with the other dogs and mostly hid behind my legs.... Phoebe was pretty much the opposite and even displayed some aggression towards the other puppies, especially when there was food involved. (The vet gave them each a Kong and Phoebe tried to get everyone else's and even growled and snapped at them for it!)
> What we started to do now is: When Dexter is playing with a toy and Phoebe wants it, we tell her "no" and give her another toy to chew. I also took their food bowls away once while they were eating and got them both to sit and wait for my permission to eat on. This has gone very well. Does anyone know of anything else we could do to stop her showing (food) aggression towards other dogs? She is fine with us taking her food but it seems other dogs are the issue... Sadly we don't know anyone else with a dog whom we could get together with to get her used to being around other dogs and sharing toys and food


Sounds like the first night in the crate with doors shut went pretty well, considering how it could have gone! 

I think most of us here enjoy finding out what our puppies personalities are going to be as they age! And, it's neat to see that your two are so different. They are really like very young children at this stage, they haven't yet learned their manners yet, and sometimes behave inappropriately. However, the good news is, they can be taught to have manners!

At 11 weeks, it's not usually true aggression, it's more a case of bad manners. If you work on it, it won't go any further (that's the goal, right?)

So, what you do with toys, redirecting her to a different toy is great!!! But, I caution you about taking away their food while they're eating. Food is a huge resource to dogs, it's very valuable to them. It's normal for dogs to have a bit of resource guarding. BUT, it's a fine line, you don't want it to get worse.
That said, sometimes you can CREATE a bigger guarding problem by taking food away without giving anything in return. Here's why: food is a valuable resource, they have a tendency, some of them, to feel the need to guard it in case someone tries to take it. If you take it away, you are proving them right, someone DID take it. So, they may feel the need to amp it up and guard it more strongly.
So, you have to be careful with this kind of thing. I encourage you to look into "trading up" games. This is basically getting your pup to willingly give up something they consider valuable, because they just may get something better. You can do this in conjuction with teaching a "drop it" or "give" command. So, if she has a kong, you can offer her something she might like even more, like maybe a bit of cheese or hot dog (they usually smell, and smell is a big factor). Practice this often. After she's got the idea that she can give it, or trade up, you can start adding the cue, or word, like "give", so that it actually has a name.

Also, when you give a high value treat like a bone or treat filled kong, it's a good idea to give feed them separately, maybe even in their crates, so they don't feel the need to guard.


----------



## Dexter&Phoebe (May 19, 2012)

Thank you for all the amazing advice  I tried the "taking food away while they eat" and it is not a problem at all! They even "sit and wait" on command before eating (it takes a few goes of taking their bowls away but they'll do it). I'll try some of the tips above and see how we get on, especially the alternating treats and the "trading up" - sounds great! 
Hambonez, that is lovely! I'm so chuffed for you  Surely Dexter will come out of his shell one day... Especially if we manage to calm down "bossy Phoebe" a bit  
We're back to puppy class next Wednesday so hopefully there'll be an improvement. I'll be sure to keep you all updated  
And, as always, any further advice is highly appreciated! It's been a while since we've had dogs, lol...


----------

