# Building Focus and Attention Span - need tips



## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm sure a lot of this is age (13 months), but Watson has a huge problem with focus and attention span and I'm looking for ideas. 

Here's a typical example of his issue. In obedience class last night he did a 3min down/stay, with major distractions, and was perfect. He held the stay when someone squeaked a ball and then kicked it, even though most of the other dogs broke around him. But then, immediately after when I tried to put him into a sit, he lost his cool and decided it was time to play. So instead of sitting, he bit and tugged on the leash, and tried to wrestle with me for a couple minutes. By the time I got him to sit, the exercise was over. The rest of the night was similar. During heeling practice, he had a beautiful heel, for about 5-10 steps, but it was a constant struggle to keep his attention. Apparently someone peed on the floor or was in heat, because he couldn't leave certain areas of the ring alone. Usually he's fairly good at heeling, since it involves movement, but last night was not our night. He nailed the recall and did a passable stand for exam, but was a mess in between. 

Basically, he's fairly good with distractions when he is "working", and he knows the exercises. When he's focused, he's awesome. I struggle with keeping his attention for more than a minute because he decides he's bored and wants to play, lunge at other dogs (to play), or bark at me. I do realize a lot of this is age, but my hope is that somebody has some games we can play or exercises we can do to help build his attention span and focus. In class I end up playing touch games or running through tricks, just to keep him moving, but it would be so nice if he could move from one exercise to the next without losing his mind.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

Sometimes, performing an exercise takes a lot of self-control and a dog needs a chance to blow off steam after it's over.

If he like tugging so much, how about intentionally tugging with him for a minute after the down-stay, then give him 10 or 15 seconds to settle, then start up again.

If you know he needs the break, just plan for it and build it in to your training.

My whippet is a scatterbug. We work something, then we play, then she chills. Then we work again. If I tried to keep her in working mode for more than 15 minutes with a few breaks built in, she simply couldn't do it.

Once you and your dog agree on a cadence, then you can stretch the working sections gradually. Age has something to do with it, but stress does to. Sometimes that silliness is just a way of releasing the stress and pressure of the work.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie, thanks for your insight! You are absolutely right that self-control is hard for this dog. Impulsive is his middle name. When we are training at home, I keep things very upbeat and fast, moving between play and training and not letting him get bored, and we don't work for long. In class it's harder because I want to follow what everyone else is doing, but he just can't, and we end up butting heads. Luckily the class switches up every week and we do a lot of different things, so some classes are more tailored to how he likes to learn, and others are more boring for him. Last night happened to be a boring one I guess, plus it was our first class back after a 4 week break, so that alone made him crazier than usual with new dogs around. In general though he's good with the classes where we're constantly moving from one activity to another, and terrible in the classes that involve lots of sitting around, or impulse control games, because his brain is fried after 15min. Anything I can do to relieve that stress and get him back in the game would be awesome.

I will definitely try intentionally tugging with him, and he also knows a "go sniff" cue that I use on walks as a reward/break, so I'll try to incorporate those into classes. How do I keep him from tugging on the leash when I haven't asked for it? I worry that I will open the door to him constantly grabbing his leash. He does know a "take it" and "drop" command when tugging at home, but since he's so impulsive he has a hard time not grabbing for the toy whenever he wants it. More impulse control to work on there.

Sometimes it's so frustrating to have one of the best dogs in the class, who is simultaneously the worst dog in the class. lol I think people look at us and say "Glad he's not my dog!" Mostly I laugh at how ridiculous he is, but sometimes I wonder if he will ever have the self-control to get through an entire rally course.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> In general though he's good with the classes where we're constantly moving from one activity to another, and terrible in the classes that involve lots of sitting around, or impulse control games, because his brain is fried after 15min.


Is he getting paid for just sitting around ? He should be. And, handsomely.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Is he getting paid for just sitting around ? He should be. And, handsomely.


Yes, absolutely. He gets paid for everything that is not barking at me, lunging at other dogs, or sniffing every surface in the room. He's actually come a long way in that department. Lots of sitting around still seems to impact his ability to focus for other parts of the class. My suspicion is that he gets bored sitting around (rewards or not) and then he has to do a stay or something when all he really wants is to move. Hence nailing his recalls every single time, but being a spazz about more stationary activities.

As our handling instructor said in the very first class, "Keep it fun, because if it's not fun, Watson's not doing it." That's a pretty accurate statement. Being still in exciting places, like training class, isn't high on his list of fun things to do. I think he might enjoy agility because it seems to be a lot of short, intense, movement based exercises, rather than a lot of impulse control exercises like obedience classes (just being in class around other dogs is an impulse control exercise for him).


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Whenever we do a lot of exercises that require a dog to show some serious impulse control, we reward with a "break" cue and play. The m ore explosive and energetic the "break" is, the better and it tends to be in proportion to the amount of control asked for in an exercise. So, for example, asking a young dog to stay in a focused heel or long down might be followed by a very dramatic and energetic "Break!" With the handler jumping back and throwing a favorite tug all the way down the field and playing some wild tug on recall. Over time the dog learns that the more we ask of him, the better that break at the end is going to be and it gives them a chance to have a break as well as keep the training fun.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> Whenever we do a lot of exercises that require a dog to show some serious impulse control, we reward with a "break" cue and play. The m ore explosive and energetic the "break" is, the better and it tends to be in proportion to the amount of control asked for in an exercise. So, for example, asking a young dog to stay in a focused heel or long down might be followed by a very dramatic and energetic "Break!" With the handler jumping back and throwing a favorite tug all the way down the field and playing some wild tug on recall. Over time the dog learns that the more we ask of him, the better that break at the end is going to be and it gives them a chance to have a break as well as keep the training fun.


I wish we took structured breaks like this! Don't get me wrong, there is downtime for dogs to take breaks, but the other dogs are all calmer and more mature, so just hanging out with their handler in a relaxed way is enough of a break. Watson needs to move, but our classes aren't really structured like that. I do think I'll bring a toy next time and talk to the instructors about taking a toy break for him when he starts to lose it. I don't want to get the other dogs riled up with a game of fetch or something, but some tugging off to the side for a minute might be ok. At the least, yesterday I was running around with him on our downtime, getting him to follow me, do his favorite tricks, etc. Nothing structured, but it did require him to pay some attention to me instead of doing his own thing, and it wasn't stationary which he liked.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

It sounds like the class is geared toward relatively low drive dogs. There's nothing wrong with even an experienced dog needing a break and to MOVE between exercises, particularly when you can use that break and movement as a reward for their focus and attention.

I think Watson just sounds like a healthy dog with a healthy amount of drive. He can focus when he know she needs to, but he has energy that needs an outlet in between. I think you can use that to make him work for it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

The class is a "fun" obedience class and we've taken it a few times before, but generally with less people. So we will practice rally exercises sometimes, and we incorporate heeling, recalls, stand for exam, and stays, but it is different every week. We did the rally class once, but focusing for 20 signs was way too much for him. At least this class offers different things, which keeps it fun. But no, it's not for high drive dogs particularly. It's really the intermediate class between the basic pet obedience classes, and the rally or competitive obedience classes, for people who want to go on, but aren't ready for those yet (like us). Or people who are just too advanced for the basic classes and like to take classes, without motivation to compete. The instructors are completely aware that he is easily bored and encourage me to play games with him, but since part of the point of the class is working around other dogs, chucking a toy after a great stay wouldn't really be appreciated. Haha. This round of the class is almost all labs and a golden, and you should have seen them leap up during the down/stay when someone squeaked a ball. 

I plan to get him into agility this winter, which I think will work better with where he's at and with his excitement and intensity level. I still really want to do rally and obedience with him, but I can't go faster than what he is ready for. As long as I can figure out how to give him a break, and then get his attention back, we will do fine in class. The hard part is getting him back when he goes into lala land. Or never letting him go to lala land in the first place.


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## hanksimon (Mar 18, 2009)

It's an age thing and he'll get better in a few years with practice. If no one told you, Sit-Stay (or even Sit for more than a second) and Heel are boring and very difficult for young dogs. For the first 2 - 3 mos, Shep wouldn't heel, he'd try to socialize... but his loose leash walking was fine. His Sit was perfect, as long as he could bounce back up 

My solution was to practice after work for 10 - 30 min. every day in a (nearly) distraction-free cul de sac. After the first month, I started to see progress, and after 2 - 3 mos, I saw progress at training.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

He's 13 months, so he's had 11 months of practice in a quiet cul-de-sac  Doing the exercises is not the issue. Keeping his focus from one exercise to the next is. At home he doesn't have this problem because I break it up and we play, but in class he struggles. I don't doubt it will get better with age, but I was looking for games or techniques to build his focus. Practicing sits in a distraction free environment isn't enough.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Is there any way that you could sit slightly away from the other dogs so that you wouldn't be as much of a distraction and could still play with him?

Ranger is very much the "intense focus until I'm bored and then I will stare into space or investigate that piece of fluff" lol. When I can see that I am losing his focus a quick game of tug can bring him back to refresh him. 

Is there a way for you to have a tug toy in your pocket/tucked in waist of pants that you can pull out for the tug instead of using the leash if you're concerned about inopportune tugging?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

SDRRanger said:


> Ranger is very much the "intense focus until I'm bored and then I will stare into space or investigate that piece of fluff" lol. When I can see that I am losing his focus a quick game of tug can bring him back to refresh him.


Haha. This sounds so familiar! 

The class is pretty large this time around (8 dogs?) which makes it trickier, but not impossible, to get away from the group. If I position myself at the end of the row for stay practice it shouldn't be an issue. And there are times when it's more independent work while smaller groups work on one thing or another, so those times I can easily break away and tug all I want.

I was thinking about a smaller tug that I could bring, but couldn't come up with much. His favorite tug is a 2-3' long braided fleece thing that's a little unwieldy for putting in your pocket. I think I could just throw a toy on top of my bag and then try to be near the bag to grab it easily. The facility isn't huge, and there is a line of chairs kind of separating the two halves, so if I pick one of those chairs it would be right in the middle and easily accessible. 

I'm excited to try this tug thing! At home he's often too interested in food to tug during training sessions (though he tugs at other times), but I think he would be more likely to do it in training class, judging by how much he tries to tug on his leash when he's bored. I'm also going to use the "go sniff" reward which I use on walks all the time, but never thought about using in class, since he wants to sniff all of the things anyway.


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## SDRRanger (May 2, 2013)

Teaching Ranger to tug was hard. At home, he was more interested in treats or distractions, but at lessons I guess there was less to be interested in. I use a hand towel now at lessons for his tug. he goes nuts for towels, they are easy to tuck in your pants/pocket. Not sure how small Watson's mouth is (or how accurate his grab for tug is) but a smaller option would be a facecloth which would definitely be small enough to shove in somewhere.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

SDRRanger said:


> Teaching Ranger to tug was hard. At home, he was more interested in treats or distractions, but at lessons I guess there was less to be interested in. I use a hand towel now at lessons for his tug. he goes nuts for towels, they are easy to tuck in your pants/pocket. Not sure how small Watson's mouth is (or how accurate his grab for tug is) but a smaller option would be a facecloth which would definitely be small enough to shove in somewhere.


Ooo, good idea. I'll see if he will tug with one of those at home. We have tons of told towels and rags. His aim is typically terrible though, because he still thinks biting hands and arms is fun :eye roll: which is one reason I like the long fleece tug. But smaller is more portable. My other idea is a chuck-it ball with a handle that we use for fetch and tug because it's pretty small.

The main times he tugs at home are when he is completely over stimulated and bouncing off the walls. Normally he tries to attack us first (biting hands is fun apparently), but if I bring out a tug I can get him going for quite a while. In class he was getting similarly worked up (trying to wrestle with me) so I think it might work.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

I'm doing a tricks class right now and it is a little harder than say agility or nosework where there are built in break times for the dogs. Working for that long is just hard on most dogs imo. My instructor encourages us to stop and play some. I bring a tug or ball and we do that a little while or I will switch over into something that Mia loves and is 100% on (like spinning) and just let her go crazy.

I'm probably a bad person to ask, though, teaching a stay is the bane of my existence with Mia. I swear anything involving lots of restraint is difficult with her. I can do it if the reward is a release to where she gets to run and scream and get her ball but that's not always possible.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Laurelin said:


> I'm probably a bad person to ask, though, teaching a stay is the bane of my existence with Mia. I swear anything involving lots of restraint is difficult with her. I can do it if the reward is a release to where she gets to run and scream and get her ball but that's not always possible.


Haha. I love that she screams about everything. Wouldn't want to live with it (Watson's shrieks are bad enough) but it's adorable.

I'm impressed with how his stays are developing. I do still reward periodically through the 3min stay, but maybe only once per minute now. He's becoming very good with distractions too. It's funny because it was so so hard to teach him to stay when he was younger, but once he got it, he really got it. He's losing his sit/stay now in favor of the down/stay, since a down/stay is becoming a default behavior out in public, but I'm just impressed he stays at all and we can work on holding the sit. His default behavior is zero impulse control, so I appreciate how hard it is for him.

His all time favorite stay in the entire world though is before the recall. He loooves that release of running to me at full speed and actually won a recall race in our class. I think he'll have a good start line stay for agility for that reason.

I was using break time to do tricks he loves, like high five and spinning, and I've never seen him spin so fast. It's tiring for me to keep him moving so much though and sometimes I feel like I just need a break.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

I don't have much time...but I just want to say I don't expect my dogs to be really serious about formal obedience until they are 2 - 3 years old. Lars and I got really serious about obedience when he was about 2.5 - 3 years old. We got his CD in 3 shows over a 5 week period. This is the age I do rally only as my "Obedience." Ocean will be 2 in November and I'm just now starting to do some of the more formal obedience with him. The longest stay he's done is about a minute with distractions and 2 without. Personally, I wouldn't put the pressure of a 3 min stay with distractions on a dog this young. But that's just me. 

Once again, this is my personal opinion, I think you may be asking too much of Watson right now at this age. I would be playing with him in class as much as I would be training. This age is very important for building the relationship between dog and handler...you don't want to make work like work right now. I would be careful about that...because you don't want one of those dogs we all see in the obedience ring who hates it and just goes through the motions because it has to.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

Very interesting thread and I think the advice and tips here are excellent.

I would just like to add something with a slightly different twist, if I may.

Working in the obedience ring is tough work and can be a generally stressful situation. Whether it is regular obedience or IPO obedience, the dogs are expected to operate at different activity levels and to move between those levels in real time. Some of the exercises entail a high activity level, some entail a very low activity level, some in between. Plus moving between exercises and setting up also entail their own activity levels. 

Dogs react to the stressful situation in various ways. Some dogs 'shut down' and stop responding completely. But a lot of the high working drive dogs develop - pretty much on their own - a set of _impulsive default behaviors_ which they use to relieve the ring stress. 

Some of those behaviors aren't really so bad that we might not want to change them. For example, some dogs turn back or jump around a bit during the set-ups. Unless it is excessive, you might simply allow that and work around it 

But some of those behaviors- as described in the OP - while they might not be so terrible outside the ring, are going to get you in trouble inside it. In particular, dogs with high working drive tend to develop undesirable impulsive behaviors in the ring that can be scored or can even lead to an NQ. And keep in mind that in obedience, you are being scored the entire time you are in the ring, not just during the exercises. 

The training that is used for these dogs falls under the general category of "impulse control training" or "focus training", but it is a special type of that training because we really don't want to tamp down their working drive and we really don't want to work these dogs statically. 

The general rule for training a work-driven dog is to convince them that the route to drive satisfaction is through cooperation, not determination. 

The video shows a trainer beginning work with a high-drive dog that is behaving impulsively in the ring. Notice that the trainer makes no effort to "calm the dog" or to otherwise restrict the jumping around or any of the other impulsive behaviors the dog is exhibiting (in one case, the dog even jumps up to her face). Instead, the trainer uses what she calls "fun heeling" - which is simply wide circles to the right with a lot of verbal encouragement and rewards - to allow the dog to interact with her in his impulsive way. Then she puts the dog in a more controlled state - while still moving, however - by simple slowing down her pace and working more quietly to the left with her eyes on the dog. When the dog succeeds, his reward is to exhibit impulsive energy by going back onto a right circle.

This type of training - which the video only shows the very beginning of - goes on for some weeks - or months - however long it takes.







Another way to do this training makes use of an agility ring. Yes - you are going to train an obedience dog in an agility ring - and eventually, training in an agility ring with a working agility dog going through its paces while you are training your dog. In fact, this method is used a lot for high-drive dogs that are competing or going to compete in both obedience and in agility. But since this requires working with an experienced training partner - not to mention access to an agility ring - it is not something that you can do on your own.


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## MrsBoats (May 20, 2010)

Ah....Denise Fenzi. She is brilliant.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MrsBoats said:


> I don't have much time...but I just want to say I don't expect my dogs to be really serious about formal obedience until they are 2 - 3 years old. Lars and I got really serious about obedience when he was about 2.5 - 3 years old. We got his CD in 3 shows over a 5 week period. This is the age I do rally only as my "Obedience." Ocean will be 2 in November and I'm just now starting to do some of the more formal obedience with him. The longest stay he's done is about a minute with distractions and 2 without. Personally, I wouldn't put the pressure of a 3 min stay with distractions on a dog this young. But that's just me.
> 
> Once again, this is my personal opinion, I think you may be asking too much of Watson right now at this age. I would be playing with him in class as much as I would be training. This age is very important for building the relationship between dog and handler...you don't want to make work like work right now. I would be careful about that...because you don't want one of those dogs we all see in the obedience ring who hates it and just goes through the motions because it has to.


We're not really doing formal obedience at all, and he definitely isn't ready for it. The stays are longer in this class (standard obedience stays), but I return and reward him frequently, with jackpots after any distractions. The purpose of the class is to be a "fun" obedience class for those not ready for the rally or novice obedience classes, so I think it's a good fit for where we're at. One week we'll do a short rally course, the next week we'll play a game (like musical chairs, where dogs have to stay as you run to a chair, or recall races), the next week we'll bring out a tunnel or another obstacle. We do work on heeling, but again not super formal. Mostly I just want left side walking with attention, though I do pay out for correct position or snappy sits. 

My hope was to enter the rally class in the next 6 months, but the one time we tried a full course he was clearly not ready for it. It didn't help that I was unfamiliar with some of the signs too. So we'll continue in this class until he's older. The 5-10 sign courses we sometimes do as part of this class are a good length for him.

So I do think we're in a good class for his level, except for the part where he has to focus for so long, since even down time where he has to sit quietly is hard for him. I need to get better about keep him entertained during those periods, instead of expecting him to relax like the other dogs.

He definitely finds it fun though and loooves to be in class. I'm hoping by adding more play, he will have even more fun rather than getting bored during the slower parts.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Poly, thank you for the response! Gave me lots to think about. I have to run to a meeting, but I'll watch the video this afternoon. Based on your description, I was doing some of that with him on Monday. Focused exercise, then run off around the edges of the room, keeping him with me, but just letting him chase me around and have fun, then back to a focused exercise. I try to keep heeling fun and about following/chasing me, and I don't ask for a lot of precision, and that usually works for him. Unfortunately not this week, but hopefully next week will be better. 

I actually do plan to start agility with him this winter. I don't know what we'll compete in, but I like trying everything and I think the style of classes and training methods will work well for him. I'm hoping that I can apply some of what we learn to obedience training as well.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

One other thing I should mention is that in class, I'm mostly looking for attention/focus and an attempt at the exercise. I do work on precision at home, which I think shows in classes when he is focused, but I don't get hung up on that in class as long as he's working with me and offering behaviors. I just want to keep him happy and working since the class environment is so stimulating and challenging for him. This week it was a huge challenge to get any focus out of him though, or bring him back once he was disconnected from me, which was discouraging, so I'm trying to rethink things and get some more ideas for how to fix it.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

elrohwen said:


> One other thing I should mention is that in class, I'm mostly looking for attention/focus and an attempt at the exercise. I do work on precision at home, which I think shows in classes when he is focused, but I don't get hung up on that in class as long as he's working with me and offering behaviors. I just want to keep him happy and working since the class environment is so stimulating and challenging for him. This week it was a huge challenge to get any focus out of him though, or bring him back once he was disconnected from me, which was discouraging, so I'm trying to rethink things and get some more ideas for how to fix it.


That's not a bad approach for now, but as you go on, you may want to reverse things. Work on the impulse control on your own or in a separate training session, and in the obedience class itself, show what you and your dog can do at the top of your game. In that way, the trainer you are working with can see just what you can do and introduce the changes/suggestions you might need when you actually show in the ring.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Poly said:


> That's not a bad approach for now, but as you go on, you may want to reverse things. Work on the impulse control on your own or in a separate training session, and in the obedience class itself, show what you and your dog can do at the top of your game. In that way, the trainer you are working with can see just what you can do and introduce the changes/suggestions you might need when you actually show in the ring.


Well, that's the goal, but most weeks I can't get "top of the game" behavior out of him which can be frustrating. When he does perform, he's pretty good. But when he's out of it, he's really out in space. lol Maybe, like you said, impulse control in general should be our focus outside of class and we should get out of the kitchen and do more training in distracting places - I will admit that I don't set up enough sessions on that and only work on it sporadically on walks or something. I tend to use the class as the impulse control work, but I definitely see what you're saying. The times we do well, they are able to give me so much more help on improving my footwork, or reward delivery, or whatever, and that can't happen when he's off in lala land and I'm just fighting to keep him connected.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Got some time to watch the video - very cool. It's similar to what I try to do with Watson during our training at home, so I'm glad I'm on the right track, and I'll incorporate the way she does it. I've recently stepped up our heel training a bit and do some quick practices in our field and on walks, instead of just inside with no distractions. Very short, very fun, then he's released to sniff. I also do a choose to heel type thing in the field, just walking around and rewarding heavily when he seeks out heel position on his own, and then releasing him to do whatever he wants. I think doing some more of this will help in class.

Also, it made me feel better that the dog in the video was more of a nut than my dog. Haha. At least he's not quite that challenging.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I can't recommend this book strongly enough. You will love it.

http://www.thedogathlete.com/product/dog-sport-skills-book-1-developing-engagement-and-relationship


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I can't recommend this book strongly enough. You will love it.
> 
> http://www.thedogathlete.com/product/dog-sport-skills-book-1-developing-engagement-and-relationship



Funny, I was just poking around Denise Fenzi's site (I read her blog, but haven't looked much at the rest of the site) and saw this. I will add it to my list!


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Funny, I was just poking around Denise Fenzi's site (I read her blog, but haven't looked much at the rest of the site) and saw this. I will add it to my list!


I would respectfully suggest moving it to the top of the list! It's a fast read. I don't think it took me 2 hours. It's been well-edited, so there isn't much "clutter." 

Very precise and helpful. No droning on and on. The writing style is very clear. The authors went for clarity and didn't get lost in technical language.

It's a gem!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I would respectfully suggest moving it to the top of the list! It's a fast read. I don't think it took me 2 hours. It's been well-edited, so there isn't much "clutter."
> 
> Very precise and helpful. No droning on and on. The writing style is very clear. The authors went for clarity and didn't get lost in technical language.
> 
> It's a gem!


Your suggestions are taking over my book budget lately. I'm already into the "foundations" portion of the Agility book you recommended on another thread. Haha. 

I'll order it today! From the description, it sounds really good, and I love books that get to the point and offer concrete suggestions (though I enjoy the "theory" type books too)


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I always enjoy spending other peoples' money!!!


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I always enjoy spending other peoples' money!!!


Haha.

Now after more poking around on her site, I'm strongly considering signing up for an online class in December called "Control that Crazy Canine - Developing Impulse Control in the Competition Dog". My local training classes are fine for developing basic skills, but this class sounds perfect for us. I've never done an online class of any kind before, so it might be fun.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> I need to get better about keep him entertained during those periods, instead of expecting him to relax like the other dogs.
> 
> He definitely finds it fun though and loooves to be in class. I'm hoping by adding more play, he will have even more fun rather than getting bored during the slower parts.


eeeyaaaa. ... m, I dunno. 

You know your dog best, but it sounds like he really DOES need to relax like the other dogs. Personally that would be my expectation. And if it's actually your expectation too, then injecting play, play, and more play is not the way to accomplish this. Especially with a dog who wants to go go go if left to his own devices. In fact doing so would compound the problem, imo.

My simple suggestion would be to calmly pay the release, in front. Choose to continue to relax with 'semi-focus' ? an intermittent sked of treats will be applied until it's time to return to work once again. Like I said previously - if you want him to relax during downtime # 1 make sure there actually IS downtime, and #2 PAY HIM WELL for doing his job DURING downtime.

Just my thoughts. Not trying to confuse the issue.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

I recently took a private lesson from one of Denise Fenzi's instructors. The session was one of the most profound experiences I have ever had with my high-drive dog. The most important take-away that I left with was: SLOW DOWN. At the level my dog and I are competing at, there is a ton of down time. By nature, I am ADHD/ADD. I was flinging my dog from exercise to exercise, punching my way through problems by doing rapid-fire repetitions. In short, I was making my nutty dog more nuts.

My instructor made me slow down. She made me practice the calm connection that my dog and I were going to need in the ring. She taught me to do maybe 1/3 as many repetitions but made each rehearsal more deliberate and accurate. 

There is a time to let a dog release stress. There is a time to play. There is a time for calmness. At some point, a dog needs to learn to be able to relax himself with very little help from his handler. It's such a fine dance.

Striking the balance is artwork. When I work my young whippet, I reward with play when I have asked her to do something that really taxes her self-control. However, when we are waiting for our turn in class, she will flop down on the floor and chill. All of mine have been expected to relax right from the beginning. If they do something stressy or hard, I reward with play after it's finished. Then, though, they do have to just hang out.

Remembering to train thoughtfully has been so, so helpful to me.

This simple question that you posed has layers and layers of answers. It really is the heart of training. Each team has to carve their own path. It's what keeps training so interesting.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

trainingjunkie said:


> I recently took a private lesson from one of Denise Fenzi's instructors. The session was one of the most profound experiences I have ever had with my high-drive dog. The most important take-away that I left with was: SLOW DOWN. At the level my dog and I are competing at, there is a ton of down time. By nature, I am ADHD/ADD. I was flinging my dog from exercise to exercise, punching my way through problems by doing rapid-fire repetitions. *In short, I was making my nutty dog more nuts.*
> 
> My instructor made me slow down. She made me practice the calm connection that my dog and I were going to need in the ring. She taught me to do maybe 1/3 as many repetitions but made each rehearsal more deliberate and accurate.
> 
> ...


This^, this^, and more this^.  
and especially, *that*.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

I appreciate any and all experiences and ideas! 



petpeeve said:


> My simple suggestion would be to calmly pay the release, in front. Choose to continue to relax with 'semi-focus' ? an intermittent sked of treats will be applied until it's time to return to work once again. Like I said previously - if you want him to relax during downtime # 1 make sure there actually IS downtime, and #2 PAY HIM WELL for doing his job DURING downtime.


This is exactly what we have focused on for the last 6+ months. He is much better, and now has the ability to lay down in class, though it's not always "relaxed". Predictably, by the end of class, he has more ability to relax than at the beginning. In the beginning, it requires a lot of work from me to reward and reinforce, but by the end he often offers the down and just chills out. He probably gets as much reinforcement for being calm as he does for actually doing exercises. Moving from place to place or exercise to exercise is the most chaotic time.

The problem I am seeing is that it's not always working for us. In a busy class with lots of movement, I ask him to relax between exercises, and he's generally ready to go for the next. In slow classes, like Monday's class, he spends so much time stationary (whether a break or an exercise) that he just turns into a space cadet and disconnects from me. I think he might need some kind of physical release after a lot of stationary stuff, whether that release is an active exercise, or something like tug.

Also, I'm happy with his ability to relax in situations outside of training classes, which makes me more interested in trying something new in class. In Home Depot he will do a default down and just wait there while we shop, pick out lumber, etc with little fuss on my part. On vacation he settled next to a table while we had a leisurely dinner every night. In class it's much much harder for him, but in real life situations he has learned this skill pretty well considering his age and energy level. If he were a wild child in real world situations, I would be more likely to continue with the same technique I've been using in class.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> If they do something stressy or hard, I reward with play after it's finished. Then, though, they do have to just hang out.


I think I've missed the play aspect though in training class (less so when I train on my own). I tend to move from hard exercise, to asking for him to settle, to asking for something else. Just based on his reaction on Monday of grabbing his leash, and trying to run off and sniff at every opportunity, I think it might help him to incorporate more movement after difficult impulse control exercises. I'd like to try incorporating more movement and play somehow, because he's clearly getting bored sometimes.

But we will definitely continue to work on chilling out during the rest of the class as we have been, because he's slowly getting better. He went from shrieking for the first 5 minutes of class, to letting out a few shrieky barks and then focusing on what I want him to do by laying down and watching me.


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## Laurelin (Nov 2, 2006)

Play is the only way to get high level stuff from Mia. She disengages quite fast otherwise. Some is stressy behavior but a lot is just that I am boring. Once I approached training as a form of play, her engagement was much better. With stays (have I mentioned that we suck at those?) if the reward is a ball and the stay is part of the game we get so much further than if I try to stand there with treats.

I am buying that book though. I cannot wait for Nextdog. Oh the training possibilities!


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## cookieface (Jul 6, 2011)

*Elrohweh*, thank you!!! for asking the question and *everyone who replied*, thank you for the great advice!

Katie seems very much like Watson (although she can't claim youth as an excuse). She can easily relax at home, while visiting family, or out in public; in class, she's always at attention. Last week we were in a class - ironically, learning a relaxed down - and she kept popping up to watch the bearded collies in the jump chute at the back of the grounds. <sigh>

I'm just glad I'm not alone.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Definitely not alone  

It's funny because I get the impression our instructors don't believe me that Watson is totally chill in the house and 99% of the time in public.


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## MyCharlie (Nov 4, 2007)

Awesome thread and great responses. Another book/program you can look into is "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

MyCharlie said:


> Awesome thread and great responses. Another book/program you can look into is "Control Unleashed" by Leslie McDevitt.


Big fan of that already. I have and love the puppy version of the book. I'm trying to get the DVDs, but they are always stocked out at bowwowflix.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

elrohwen said:


> I'm excited to try this tug thing! At home he's often too interested in food to tug during training sessions (though he tugs at other times), but I think he would be more likely to do it in training class, judging by how much he tries to tug on his leash when he's bored. I'm also going to use the "go sniff" reward which I use on walks all the time, but never thought about using in class, since he wants to sniff all of the things anyway.


I love the Michael Ellis video on the "Power of Playing Tug." It's long and it gets into a level of detail that most people probably don't want to think about when it comes to playing tug, but if you want to use it as a training reward? It's really, really good stuff. He also talks about making a "training event," which means that when you work with the dog, there is a clear start, middle, and end to the exercise, which helps them learn to focus over time. The end of the event is particularly important, which is the release. I find this works REALLY well with a young dog that is having trouble staying with me. I think you might like it.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

As an aside, this is one area where I've heard several people mention that there is a significant difference in training philosophies between AKC style obedience trainers and ScH style obedience trainers and one of the reasons most ScH clubs do not recommend AKC obedience as a preparation for ScH obedience. I'm not speaking from experience, since I have no AKC obedience experience and it could be that the ScH trainers I've heard were talking out of hand, but this is what they had to say...

To them, most AKC obedience trainers train to reduce drive. They focus on a dog being more calm and settled as the key to creating a dog that is obedient and focused in the face of distractions. In contrast, the ScH trainers strive to keep a dog in drive while doing obedience exercises by using the break and play as a reward. They believe that this creates a solid focus over time because the dog finds doing the obedience exercise and the resultant release and play more rewarding than any distraction. They don't want a dog that is calm or settled during or in between exercises, but rather a dog that is vibrating with energy and only kept in control by that focus and the expectation of the reward coming. To them, AKC style training actually makes it more difficult to get that kind of energy out of the dog later on. The handlers I know who do both usually start with ScH and then move to AKC later on, usually after the dog has matured.

My own thoughts are that both styles could be good depending on what kind of dog you have to start with and what your goals are for your dog and I don't see one as being inherently better than the other. I can see where the different approaches could interfere, though, and that's why I try to steer someone interested in ScH away from using AKC rally or obedience as a starting point. I've just heard too many issues with dogs moving from one to the other in that direction rather than the other way around.


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## trainingjunkie (Feb 10, 2010)

packetsmom said:


> As an aside, this is one area where I've heard several people mention that there is a significant difference in training philosophies between AKC style obedience trainers and ScH style obedience trainers and one of the reasons most ScH clubs do not recommend AKC obedience as a preparation for ScH obedience. I'm not speaking from experience, since I have no AKC obedience experience and it could be that the ScH trainers I've heard were talking out of hand, but this is what they had to say...
> 
> To them, most AKC obedience trainers train to reduce drive. They focus on a dog being more calm and settled as the key to creating a dog that is obedient and focused in the face of distractions. In contrast, the ScH trainers strive to keep a dog in drive while doing obedience exercises by using the break and play as a reward. They believe that this creates a solid focus over time because the dog finds doing the obedience exercise and the resultant release and play more rewarding than any distraction. They don't want a dog that is calm or settled during or in between exercises, but rather a dog that is vibrating with energy and only kept in control by that focus and the expectation of the reward coming. To them, AKC style training actually makes it more difficult to get that kind of energy out of the dog later on. The handlers I know who do both usually start with ScH and then move to AKC later on, usually after the dog has matured.
> 
> My own thoughts are that both styles could be good depending on what kind of dog you have to start with and what your goals are for your dog and I don't see one as being inherently better than the other. I can see where the different approaches could interfere, though, and that's why I try to steer someone interested in ScH away from using AKC rally or obedience as a starting point. I've just heard too many issues with dogs moving from one to the other in that direction rather than the other way around.


I think that if you attended an AKC show, you might find about an even split between the handlers that are managing/reducing drive and handlers that are clearly working "in" drive. The sport of obedience has been transforming dramatically as training styles have shifted. There are a lot of agility handlers playing in obedience who would never chose to reduce drive in their dogs. Perhaps it is different from region to region, but I can tell you that you can easily compete and do well with a very driven dog in the AKC ring. Drive is not an excuse for forging or sloppiness though. 

In my region, the top of the line-up still consists of very controlled dogs. Most of the handlers are still very correction-oriented. However, there is always room for a bouncing dog.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

trainingjunkie said:


> I think that if you attended an AKC show, you might find about an even split between the handlers that are managing/reducing drive and handlers that are clearly working "in" drive. The sport of obedience has been transforming dramatically as training styles have shifted. There are a lot of agility handlers playing in obedience who would never chose to reduce drive in their dogs. Perhaps it is different from region to region, but I can tell you that you can easily compete and do well with a very driven dog in the AKC ring. Drive is not an excuse for forging or sloppiness though.
> 
> In my region, the top of the line-up still consists of very controlled dogs. Most of the handlers are still very correction-oriented. However, there is always room for a bouncing dog.


I was just going to say this.

I also don't think that there is a "style" of AKC obedience training. Maybe there was previously, but with the increase in +R training I think things have changed. There's no longer one right way, and lots of people using +R are training dogs to be very exuberant and flashy, vs the correction based training that created calmer dogs. Look up Denise Fenzi - she trains for both Sch and AKC obedience and is a great example of someone training with play and in drive. Bridget Carleson also has dogs with a super flashy style who definitely aren't calm or low drive.

Agility is huge with training in drive and with toys, and I think some of that is bleeding over into obedience and people are using similar techniques.

Personally, I hope to get a CD and an RN and call it a day - I'm not looking for a UDX dog - so I'm not that concerned with my heeling following any particular style as long as he's with me and paying attention. With that said, I only reward for snappy and upbeat performance in general. Is it training in drive? Maybe a little? But I'm definitely not training to dampen drive or excitement, if only because that doesn't work for my dog. As soon as something is not fun for Watson, he will completely shut down and either look pathetic, or stare into space. When he's having fun, he's charismatic and exuberant. He will only work when motivated and excited by what he's doing, so I work to keep him motivated, which is kind of the main gist of this thread I guess. I do use toys when I can, and I'll ask for behaviors when he's already amped up with toys, but generally I use food because it's the easy way out. His toy drive comes and goes depending on his energy level and the time of day, so I'm hoping to build it up a bit, but I'm not a good enough trainer to rely on it at the moment. 

I've also been thinking a lot about training in drive, but using hunt drive instead of prey. His prey drive is medium to medium-high I guess, but his hunt drive is through the roof. This dog lives to use his nose and track or search for things. I think the reason he gets so much exercise from "normal" walks is that every walk is a SAR mission in his mind. lol I just read something by Denise Fenzi about how it's hard to harness hunt drive for training, but I'm going to see if I can try, at least at home, using searching as a reward. I do use a "go sniff" reward on walks, but getting to do a full out search is something he is obsessive about.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I also think that we tend to be a bit behind trends up here in AK, at least from what I've noticed in areas besides dog training, but there as well. 

My dog has, probably, a moderate prey drive, not as high as most of the GSD's and Dobies we train with. He does actually seem to have an even higher drive for tracking than some of them do, though. Like Watson, every walk is an SAR mission in the making. I do sometimes reward on walks with a "break" from whatever obedience activity I have him working on and then a treat tossed in some random direction away from where he's looking with a "Find it." I find it's a bigger reward for him than just giving him a treat because he loves searching for something, even if it's not formal tracking practice. That would be tough to use as a reward, though, on the field for obedience or protection.

I liked in "Bones Would Fall From the Sky" where the author talked about watching people walking with their dogs and how the two walk together is almost a metaphor for their entire relationship. It's definitely true for Sam and I. On our walks, it's very much a game of "If you do what I want, I'll do what you want." I reward him most by letting him do some of the things he enjoys most after he does the things I want. I've had some dogs where I could simply dictate the relationship and they'd happily follow, but with Sam, it's very much a collaboration. I find what drives him most and then reward him for the behavior I want with it. If he didn't get some of what he wanted, I doubt he'd readily obey my commands.

I love training in drive because, to me, it feels so much more dynamic than training methods I've used previously. I also feel like it keeps the dogs more excited and engaged with fewer corrections necessary, even if you use them. Mainly, though, it just works a whole lot better with the dog I have than trying to fight that drive. The difference between him in a positive only obedience class that focused on managing or reducing drive versus a training environment in which drive is channeled...is enormous. To him, I think managing or reducing drive is, in itself, an aversive since it asks him to be a different dog than the dog he is.

I'll have to see if I can find some of the references you guys suggested.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

When I read that part of the book, I wondered what Suzanne Clothier would think about our walks. lol I don't work on obedience during walks nearly as much as I did when he was a puppy, because now he has the basic mechanics down. I mostly work on redirecting his attention to me occasionally, especially if he's really hot on a scent, and rewarding with treats or telling him to sniff or "find it". We do still work on walking politely past other dogs since he still pulls a bit when we get parallel to them. On the night of an obedience class I'll do a couple short heeling sessions just to get him paying attention. But 95% of the time we just walk along companionably I think. Some days he's too interested in tracking scents to check in with me much, but most days we walk along, glancing at each other and smiling every so often. 

I'm still not entirely sure how much of Watson's personality is due to drive and how much is just excess energy. I wouldn't really call him a high energy dog - he doesn't run just to run, and a 2 mile walk is enough to satisfy him most days. So I tend to think his over the top behavior is at least somewhat related to drive, but who knows. He is definitely drivier than many of the pets in our classes though, and being young he has more excess frantic energy as well. Add to that his low threshold for boredom and he can get unruly. It's always amazing to me how quickly he can go from fast asleep in the car, to a whirling dervish at class.

I got the Denise Fenzi book on Friday, but unfortunately couldn't read much of it because of a show handling seminar I was at all weekend. So far it's good, but I haven't gotten to any specific exercises or suggestions, just general thoughts and definitions of "relationship".

The second day of the seminar, a breeder showed up with a doberman who was fairly out of control, and she made some comment about her being really drivey. Hey, if that's drivey, then I've got a drivey dog too. lol Of course I don't know what it's like to live with these dogs (Watson is fairly easy to live with), but to me his behavior in a stimulating environment, like the training facility, isn't any different from the doberman and 4 tervurens who were there, which gave me some sense of comfort I guess. I'm not that horrible of a trainer, he really is just a challenging dog sometimes.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Drivey dogs definitely can be a handful! 

We had a great example in the club recently. There was a man who paid one of the handlers to try to get his older GSD his BH. This dog has lived as a pet and was not from working lines, nor had it been given the kind of training early on that might have encouraged whatever drive he had. It's hard to know how different he might have been if he had, but what you saw when she would bring the dog out was a really calm, relaxed, nice dog. The problem was...he was almost impossible for her to motivate! This dog wasn't geriatric, but he was just so mellow. He didn't really want to play and his food drive was even such that if what she was asking seemed to difficult...he wasn't going to keep working at it for the reward. This dog would be a wonderful family pet and learned basic obedience without much problem, but failed to pass the BH because he just didn't have the focus he needed.

Contrast this to a working line GSD, raised to work and the same age and the difference was striking. This dog seemed almost to vibrate. Anything he did, he did with everything he had, for good or evil. LOL! The dog was single-minded about whatever goal he had, so the biggest challenge the handler had was just making the reward more valuable than anything else the dog wanted to do. As long as that was the case, this dog would work through almost anything to get it, no matter how frustrating or unpleasant. He was easy to train in very complex tasks because of this. However, the downside is that...if the handler wasn't giving him direct instructions...he'd find something to do. This is a dog that you might never be able to leave unattended in your home without it getting into something and it's not a dog you'd ever be able to take a prolonged break from an exercise and training regimen. It likely would not make a good pet in most homes, whereas the first dog could probably live in just about any family. This dog just got his Sch3, the highest title in Schutzhund. He's still a PITA for the handler on a regular basis, but he loves him and it's more of a head shaking, "dennis the menace" kind of affection.

Drive was once described to me as that spark that makes a dog want to work more than anything else. It's what makes a lab that otherwise loves laying by a warm fire happily dive into freezing cold water to retrieve...and want to do it over and over again. It's what makes a scenthound single-minded when they pick up a trail even when their owners would rather they not. It's what makes a Schutzhund dog run at full speed toward the decoy, even as he is cracking a whip and menacing. It's what makes a border collie absolutely fanatical about herding everything in sight to the point of exhaustion.

I'm in awe of drivey dogs and I love working with them, but when I'm honest with myself...I'd actually rather live day to day with a dog with less drive. It's just like I might enjoy driving a sports car now and then, but for my regular commute? I might prefer an easier to drive automatic with better gas mileage that's cheaper to maintain.  It's kind of interesting with Sam, since there are times, like the week and a half I couldn't work with him while I was recovering, that I really wish he had a lot less drive and then other times I kind of envy the people with higher drive pups at Schutzhund because we sometimes have to work harder at some things and I often feel like I have to work harder to keep him motivated. Then again, I'm comparing him to purebred dogs from working lines...so perhaps we're a nice happy medium?


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Yeah, drive is a really interesting discussion. I do think there is some level of drive going on, because he is so persistent and determined. If he sets his mind to something, he goes at it with single minded intent. If he's focused on me, and on earning a reward, he is intense and works hard. The trick is keeping his attention since it's so easy for him to find the environment more stimulating. And I know for a fact that his hunt drive is high. Not sure how he compares to a working line dog, or even a field bred dog, but he's no slouch. At the same time, he's fairly easy to live with and has a great off switch. My nightmare would be a dog who really does need multiple hours of exercise a day, or who never turn off in the house. I know he's busy enough to drive some people crazy, but he's a good level for me.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

We're working on finding Sam's off-switch. I think it's hiding somewhere. 

I wouldn't say Sam is high energy. It's not that hard to wear him out physically. A decent length walk, a hike, or even some rigorous backyard play will wear him out enough to need to rest and his endurance is below what I'd probably like it to be for some things. However, it's REALLY hard to wear him out mentally. He is always trying to out-think things around him. A great example is his ex-pen, which he still spends a good amount of time in during the day while dh works. First, he'd discovered he could slam into it and move it across the room. We secured it to something. Then, he found if he slammed hard enough into it, he could tip it over and climb out. We responded by screwing the bottom into a square of thick plywood, weighting it down. Next, he started working on the clasps that held the opening closed...it took a while, but he managed to bend them and found a way to push out through the bottom. We bought tougher clasps. Now, this past week, he has started shredding the plywood base.

At least we have kindling for the fire? 

All this and he has plenty of toys and gets regular exercise and training. His brain just has no off switch. LOL


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Sam sounds like my female rabbit. She is always thinking and plotting her escape and I can't count the number of times she has outsmarted us in getting out of her pen and getting past our bunny proofing (either to get behind the couch, or go upstairs). I swear she's smarter than Watson, at least as far as problem solving ability goes.

An update from class! Last night was better. We started with recalls and active things before doing stays. In a way it backfired, since on the first recall he broke the stay and did zoomies around the entire place for a minute. lol Hilarious. He usually loves recalls, but I think he needs some practice with impulse control first before asking him to stay before his favorite activity. Next we did heeling, which he was pretty good at. Some sniffing, but as we went, he focused more and more and got into the game. Then some stays, which were ok (I stayed much closer and held the leash this time after the silliness of recalls). After that he was getting crazy, so I played tug with his leash a little bit. He started to get way too amped up and the only way I could stop him was to stand on the leash (my favorite technique when we're playing/walking and he decides to start jumping and mouthing) but then he was actually able to focus. After a quick sit for exam, we played a little more tug and he was much less crazy, and able to drop every time I asked (which was impressive, since he only just got the idea about that cue without trading food or a toy for the tug object). 

So the tugging seemed to work pretty well to keep him focused and engaged and I was excited that he could drop it and refocus. After a short game of tug, he was able to focus on the next activity without me fighting him. I also used some "go sniff" rewards, because he was sniffy as usual, and he seemed to enjoy that. Unfortunately the class ended on sort of a bad note for him. We worked on basic attention, holding a treat out and waiting for them to make eye contact before marking and rewarding. A bunch of dogs, especially the keeshond pair, started barking during the activity, which made Watson nervous. So he started the game really well, but then just felt uncomfortable, so we went outside for a pee break. We ended with working on straight fronts, using small plank things to make a chute. Once he decided to run around the chute, and because I was holding the leash it caught on the thing and knocked it over. He's resilient and got over it quickly, but I felt bad that we ended with things that made him a bit stressed out since he was doing so well. I'm glad he's a dog who brushes off stress easily.

Next week we're doing more games and less obedience, so hopefully he has a good time with that. I'm going to bring an actual tug toy instead of using the leash (I forgot it this week), but the leash actually worked pretty well.


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## Poly (Sep 19, 2007)

elrohwen said:


> I think I've missed the play aspect though in training class (less so when I train on my own). I tend to move from hard exercise, to asking for him to settle, to asking for something else. Just based on his reaction on Monday of grabbing his leash, and trying to run off and sniff at every opportunity, I think it might help him to incorporate more movement after difficult impulse control exercises. I'd like to try incorporating more movement and play somehow, because he's clearly getting bored sometimes.
> 
> But we will definitely continue to work on chilling out during the rest of the class as we have been, because he's slowly getting better. He went from shrieking for the first 5 minutes of class, to letting out a few shrieky barks and then focusing on what I want him to do by laying down and watching me.


One thing I have noticed that might have some bearing on this issue. 

I've noticed that a lot of handlers - especially newer ones - do not do enough _releasing_ during obedience training and practice. You can't do much releasing in the actual obedience ring - or at least you have to very subtle about it lest you get scored or NQed for "training in the ring" - but during practice and training, you should do it between _every_ exercise. In things like heeling or advanced exercises, you should perhaps even do it during the exercises.

Basically, how this works is that you and your dog work out the _release behavior_ together, because it is not just what your dog does during the release, it is also what _you _do. So I can't tell you what this will be. Some handlers get very verbal during the release , and others get very animated but are relatively quiet . Some dogs like to get a treat during the release. OTOH, some dogs don't care much about treats one way or the other, so stuffing a treat on them doesn't do much. Some dogs like to play with a special toy, and others aren't interested in that sort of thing. 

In any case, you have to work out the release behavior and use it consistently during your training and practicing.

Some people refer to the release as "play" - even using that word as a cue - but I think it is much more controlled than what we usually consider to be free play. You don't want your dog losing focus and to even think about leaving you to run around. Perhaps "controlled play with focus on you" might be a better description.

You really don't need to worry as much about this during agility or rally-o, because the work itself often serves as a release. For field training, we wouldn't even consider it. But for obedience, you do need it.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

Poly, the release is something I have struggled with internally. I try to maintain engagement upon the release, but what Watson really wants to do is dart off and do his own thing after the release most of the time. Release him after a heel and he'll often come right back, but release him after a stay and he's off like a shot, probably sniffing something, paying no attention to me. In trying to maintain engagement, I end up not fully releasing him, in his mind, because he still has to focus on me, and then he's not really sure what's a release and what's not. I don't really know what to do in that case. So I do release him, and it's very obvious to him when he's released from an exercise, but I struggle with how much control I should have after the release, based on his age and current ability. Obviously you can't release a dog in the ring and have them shoot off to the end of the leash, but he's also not going to be capable of focusing on me 100% of the time at his age, personality, and level of training.

But yes, I do release him after every single exercise. I was hoping that by using a tug game in a controlled fashion, that I could keep him engaged while letting him blow off steam, rather than losing him to sniffing the floor and struggling to get him back.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

Poly said:


> You can't do much releasing in the actual obedience ring - or at least you have to very subtle about it lest you get scored or NQed for "training in the ring" -


 If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're referring to here is mostly play. That's why I prefer to use food over play for the release, primarily, in maybe a 90/10 split. Because food is generally more conducive to calmness. And like I said before, it can be put on a variable or intermittent schedule in practice, which works out well for actual trial purposes.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

elrohwen said:


> Poly, the release is something I have struggled with internally. I try to maintain engagement upon the release, but what Watson really wants to do is dart off and do his own thing after the release most of the time. Release him after a heel and he'll often come right back, but release him after a stay and he's off like a shot, probably sniffing something, paying no attention to me. In trying to maintain engagement, I end up not fully releasing him, in his mind, because he still has to focus on me, and then he's not really sure what's a release and what's not. I don't really know what to do in that case. So I do release him, and it's very obvious to him when he's released from an exercise, but I struggle with how much control I should have after the release, based on his age and current ability. Obviously you can't release a dog in the ring and have them shoot off to the end of the leash, but he's also not going to be capable of focusing on me 100% of the time at his age, personality, and level of training.
> 
> But yes, I do release him after every single exercise. I was hoping that by using a tug game in a controlled fashion, that I could keep him engaged while letting him blow off steam, rather than losing him to sniffing the floor and struggling to get him back.


I think dogs can have two different forms of release, one being a full release (not so much recommended for ring purposes, lol) and the other being a more controlled release such as an informal come to front (better suited for ring purposes). Perhaps separate cues might be a good idea, but my guys have learned to put it into context.

Also, I'd be careful about releasing with energetic play after a stay exercise. Other dogs in close proximity with potential pent-up energy from being restricted, all being released at the same time, could end up being a recipe for disaster. Moreso than with a food-type release anyway.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Also, I'd be careful about releasing with energetic play after a stay exercise. Other dogs in close proximity, being released at the same time, could end up being a recipe for disaster. Moreso than with a food-type release anyway.


Yes, I made sure to do the leash tugging far away from the others. We released from the stay normally, then we left that part of the ring, went to another area to start another exercise, and that's when I let him tug away from the others. So it wasn't a reward for the stay itself, so much as a "get the crazies out" break, and I think it helped a little. He was going to get crazy anyway, so at least I seemed to direct him to something positive, with me, instead of just being a nutjob on his own and fighting against that.

I swear, sometimes he still acts like a 4 month old puppy.


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## packetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

I think that kind of class environment would drive me nuts. I do SO much better on a big field where dogs aren't having to be right on top of each other and exuberant play for release is the norm. I can't imagine being cooped up like that and I don't think Sam would like it. If it were me, and I had a pup like Watson, I might focus on using the training classes for my own learning and then doing most of my practicing and learning with my dog elsewhere, where I could do more breaks and sprinkle more play into the work.

You might like to look online for some small tugs or a ball on a string. Both are really great to use as play rewards in training because they are a size that you can hide or tuck into a pocket or, for heeling, tuck under your arm to bring their attention up to you. They make tugs and balls for Schutzhund training that are a great size and easy to carry with you and I don't see why they wouldn't work well for other training as well. 

Food is more conducive to calmness. A dog pretty much isn't in prey drive while it's in food drive. That's why we tend to try to phase out food in favor of toys, because we want to train in prey drive. I can see, though, for other applications, how you might want to actually avoid training in prey drive. For my dog, I find I get a much more intense focus in prey drive and I find it more fun to train in it.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

> Yes, I made sure to do the leash tugging far away from the others. We released from the stay normally, then we left that part of the ring, went to another area to start another exercise, and that's when I let him tug away from the others.


For what it's worth, here's a full description of what I do for stays. 

Set the dog up as usual. Wait cue is given. Leash comes off and gets attached to armband even in practice, as it ultimately becomes part of the routine / cue. Right foot always remains in exact position, left foot only steps back in order to place leash and armband behind the dog. Left foot then comes back into normal position, dog is given a calming pat. Sit or down cue is given to dog upon order of judge. Stay cue is given when ordered to leave your dog. Walk away leading with right foot, arms become crossed about two or three strides out. Turn to face dog, arms remain crossed and feet slightly askew to differentiate from recall where feet are together and arms are at side. Eye contact etc is an individual dog preference. Return to dog starting with very slight step to the right so as not to walk straight in towards dog (reserve straight in for if/when dog breaks position). Around dog and back to heel position. Upon completion of ex, wait cue is given, arms still remain crossed, right foot remains in position, left foot reaches behind as before to facilitate retrieval of leash. Leash is re-attached. Arms go back to folded and dog remains in position until other dogs have released and begun to clear the area. Then and only then do I release my dog. If merely practicing, dog can theoretically be released to an instantaneous food or tug reward RIGHT THEN AND THERE without as much concern for the other dogs formerly in proximity. I believe this is clearer communication as opposed to moving your dog to another place before providing the reward. Remember the saying, "reward for position".

I know this thread and recent discussion has been about focus and attention span, and not about the personal mechanics of a stay, but I thought I'd mention the whole she bang with the hope that somehow it might help with the more relevant 'release' itself, or at least provide you with some food for thought in other areas that might benefit from improvement. In a VERY long winded round-a-bout way I guess . Really though, listen to your instructor. Of course.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

petpeeve said:


> Turn to face dog, arms remain crossed and feet slightly askew to differentiate from recall where feet are together and arms are at side.


I love this! Fantastic idea.


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## petpeeve (Jun 10, 2010)

To me, the entire routine is about stress _mitigation_. Which should, by all rights, help with focus and attention.


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## elrohwen (Nov 10, 2011)

packetsmom said:


> If it were me, and I had a pup like Watson, I might focus on using the training classes for my own learning and then doing most of my practicing and learning with my dog elsewhere, where I could do more breaks and sprinkle more play into the work.


Well, classes like this aren't for "learning". They are for practicing things you have worked on at home in a distracting environment near other dogs, hence doing a down/stay a couple feet away from another dog. They are also for troubleshooting and getting ideas on how to improve or practice behaviors at home, like how to teach a straighter front, for example. All Watson is actually learning is how to focus in an environment that really amps him up - the actual exercises are well covered at home where practices are short, upbeat, and include play. We have a huge field at home where he can really let loose in play and training. Personally, I love classes like this, because it's so much more challenging for him. Plus, going to shows and trialing (in the future) relies a lot on being able to focus and work around a chaotic environment with lots of other dogs. 



> You might like to look online for some small tugs or a ball on a string.


We have lots of ball-on-a-rope type toys that we use for tug and fetch.



> Food is more conducive to calmness. A dog pretty much isn't in prey drive while it's in food drive. That's why we tend to try to phase out food in favor of toys, because we want to train in prey drive. I can see, though, for other applications, how you might want to actually avoid training in prey drive. For my dog, I find I get a much more intense focus in prey drive and I find it more fun to train in it.


My problem with training with toys is that his toy drive is not reliable, and he is typically over the top with toys. So it's not something I could use reliably enough to, say, use in a specific class at a specific time of day. It's something I work on at home, but not something that's ready for the road. The other issue is that when he is in prey/toy drive, he is so over the top and lacking impulse control that he can't learn much. He can barely differentiate a sit from a down when he's that amped up, so we work on simple things, and mostly impulse control-type behaviors (sit, down, wait, drop, etc). At the point he's at, a toy would be useless for teaching him a nice about turn, for example. His food drive is strong, predictable, and still allows him to focus, so in class that's what we need to use at this point. Trust me, he is definitely not "calm" with food 


ETA: And if you want to see dogs crammed together, go to a conformation show. It's just wall to wall dogs under the tent before going into the ring. We show in small classes (not a lot of Welshies out there) so we don't have to smush together in the ring, but the couple times I showed in the Group it was controlled mayhem. The training classes we have taken, both obedience and handling, have helped a lot to make him comfortable in that type of environment.


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